HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:48:21 GMT
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:

>>--
>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and 
>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>followers from Europe landed there.

Always???

Those Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians are actually either (1)
relatively recent immigrants from nearby Arab countries, generally
attracted to Palestine by the economic opportunities that resulted from the
influx of Jews returning to their homeland, or (2) descendents
of earlier conquerors who kicked the Jews out of their homeland.

>Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...Palestinians are
>HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.
>While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
>are bleeding for their homeland.
>
Those Palestinian Arabs who really loved the land had the opportunity to
stay.  It's rather insulting to our intelligence to plead about the
bleeding hearts of people who voluntarily left Palestine in the expectation
of returning over the graves of their Jewish neighbors.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 10 Sep 1992 20:51:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>But what fraction of the land did it buy?  Even by 1946, most
>of the privately-owned land in Palestine was not owned by Jews.

Even in 1992, most of the privately held land in Palestine is
not owned by Jews.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:52:29 GMT

In article <BuHLru.L7L@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.185632.26661@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep10.093741.29858@cc.uow.edu.au> u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:
>>>
>>>hi all
>>>
>>>im a new commer to the group. i dont know if this topic has been discussed
>>>earlier or not but i would like to know if the israelis feel guilty at all
>>>for what they are doing to the  palistinians.
>>
>>You seem to totally ignore the deeds/crimes of the Arabs. Teerorism
>>has/is elevated into new heights in the hand of the PLO gang.
>>Palestinians are trying for 50 years to throw the Jews into the sea
>>in one way or another. [ I think that the current drive to Plaestinian
>>state is just the newest tactic to accomplish that goal].
>
>Well, now that we have heard from most of the net.Chutzpanazis, it's time
>for al little balance.
>
>The original poster has properly been put in his place and no doubt will
>never be heard from again in spite of the fact that he was simply posing
>an honest question the honest answer to which is most embarassing to
>the Chutzpanazis.
>
>I won't go into the usual defense and attack mode but suffice it to say
>that most honest people equate Israel with South Africa as being one of
>the most racist countries in the world.
>
>Isreal doesn't need gas chambers, the world community just seems to find
>administrative detention of tens of thousands of innocent civilians
>palatable enough that tthey have chosen jailing the hated Arabs to
>ethnic clensing.

I guess the American police in the LA riots is also comparable to South
Africa, Nazis , Satan [ choose your label ]. They indeed didn't use
gas chambers etc. but Hell, what do we need proportions for? if we can
label our opponents with the Most unpopular slur of the week. Why care
to look for honest proportions?

I guess that Arf considers himself one of the 'honest' people who thinks
this, Well I prefer dishonesty in this case!

I think that facts and proportions are not one of the tools that Arf's
'honesty' uses!

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:38:28 GMT

In article <BuL63E.EHG@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> 
|> >	This is absolutely _irrelevant_. It has nothing to do with
|> >	emigration. 99.99% of the Jews in Israel are either townpeople
|> >	or farmers. Does that suggest that there was no Jewish 
|> >	imigration to Palestine/Israel? Nonsense.
|> 
|> > 
|> Speaking of immigration, Palestinian Arabs were, in fact, VERY migratory.
|> Fred Gottheil, an Economics professor at the University of Illinois, did
|> a study using original census data and found that just during the years
|> 1922-1931, 54,790 Arabs immigrated into Palestine.  That means that 11.8%
|> of ALL Arabs in pre-state Israel were immigrants and Arab immigration 
|> accounted for 38.7% of all Arab population growth in the land.  That means
|> that during that period, Arabs accounted for 36.8% of all immigrants to
|> pre-state Israel.  So much for Palestinians not being migratory!
|> 
|> 
|m
|> 
|> Ed.

I think what you and others who argue along these dumb lines fail to recognise that during these periods the people in the area still considered them selfs living in one country called SYRIA. Consequently, such moves CANNOT be considered migrations. If you move from Urbana to Skokie will that be considered migration?.

Its is a pitty that you are attempting to justify that Palestinians do not have the right of a homeland because of migration. It appears you have no conscious at all.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:15:20 GMT

In article <18od2jINNquh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:
>
>>
>>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
>>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
>>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
>>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
>>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
>>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
>>>depressed area.
>>
>>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  
>
>Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."
>-- 
And after you look at "From Time Immemorial", which many scholars have
repudiated as being based on false information and has been highly
criticized, read the book "Blaming the Victims" by E. Said and C.
Hitchens.  This book explains how inaccurate "Immemorial" was in 
a very detailed and convincing way.

Sandra.


>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19728 soc.culture.arabic:3576
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:03:04 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

I wonder how much money and/or oil the United States received
for planning and participating in the invasion of Kuwait versus
its full-scale war against Iraq?

I also wonder how Saddam benefitted out of the deal - is he
allowed to remain Iraq's President for life still?

I wonder still, when the people in the U.S. will learn of
these deep, dark secrets of the CIA ... will they blindly
support the re-election of such a dictator?

Reminds me of the movie, JFK, when it was said that it doesn't
matter how many lives are lost or what the sacrifices are -
as long as the business of war and corruption continues ...
if it was $80 Billion back in the 60's and 70's, what the
going rate today?

When are people going to wake up?

Anisa
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 11 Sep 92 06:30:25 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


In article <1992Sep10.143943.11216@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:

>  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted
> from Judaism and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to
> emigrate to Israel? Is this logical?

This brings me to still another question:

  If my ancestors are Armenians, Gypsies , Morocans, Syrians,
Afghans, Bosnians , Egyptians , Iranians or of any of the other
populations entered the Jewish Land - ERETZ YISRAEL - during the last
century ( see Britanica 1910 , Palestine, population ) and now are
called by the press "Palestinians" and if my grand-grandparents
returnd to their origin land on 1920 after spending 2 years at the
Jewish land , does this give me the right to emigrate to the Jewish
land , as the PLO covenant declared ?
 Is this logical?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 06:40:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.054008.15083@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>In article <18tapbINN8jr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:

[stuff I can't comment on deleted]

>>
>>It appears to be important only when Jews control Jerusalem and allow free
>>access to everyone.  When Muslims are in control, and bar Jews from their
>>holiest sites, nobody seems to care.
>>
>Don't make me laugh...free access to everyone....NOT!  Just ask my neighbor...
>who can't even cross the river.  No, my neighbor is not a former terrorist,
>she is a young lady, mother of two infants, about 5'3", 90#!  A real threat.
>

Maybe if her government ended the state of War with Israel, she could come 
over.

	Manu

>Sandra.
>
>>-- 
>>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
>
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
  Arabs"     -Sir John Bagot Glubb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:34:54 GMT

In article 2298@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.032516.13425@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># Maybe you are
># right: it could be that the Ottomans couldn't distinguish between
># Arabs and oranges and so counted both together.
>
>	Funny - NOT.  What is improtant is that for certian things to be
>true, other things also have to be true.  If there was a large
>population, there must be food to support it.  The only evidence that
>is of any value that shows enough food is for citrus (What I mean by
>any value is total, and not relative numbers.  For instance, a 200%
>increase means nothing if it means a growth of 1 to 3.).
>
>	Now this  whole argument may be ridiculous since the other day I
>saw one of the "palestinian?" negotiators to the peace talks say (I
>think it was Saed Erekat) that at the time of the British mandate there
>were were about 600,000 "palestinians?".  

The official figures for the beginning of the mandate period (1922) 
are 673,400 non-Jews and 83,800 Jews.  Nobody claims more than that;
I'm sorry if you have been arguing against a nonexistent position.

>                                          If so, that is such a small
>amount (I believe there are around 5-6 million people there now and there
>is still an awful lot of empty land) that it does not matter if they
>all originated there.  

If you accept the proposal that land rights pass to one's descendants,
then it matters very much.

>(of course, they would have a lot of explaining
>to do for how they grew to today's numbers, similar to how the number
>of people who were at Don Larsen's perfect World Series game is now in
>the millions).

It is quite well understood.  The vast improvement in living conditions
and public health that occurred during the period 1880-1930 meant that
the high infant mortality rate fell and the life expectancy grew.
Meanwhile, the exceptional birth rate (more than 7 births per woman)
continued.  Claims that the observed rate of increase was impossible
were destroyed when Israeli Arabs displayed an even greater rate of
increase during the 1950s.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Territorial Compromise
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:30:13 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

Since we all love the PLO and they are the darling of the world,
especially of those who love to speak out for the oppressed, why do we
not take them at their word when they talk about territorial
compromise.

PLO National Covenant (Article 1):
The borders of Palestine as they were during the British Mandate are
indivisible.

As these borders contained what are now those territories controlled
by Israel and Jordan (sic) in the ratio 1:3, why do we not compromise
on 1:1.

You know what.  I shall be concilliatory.  Let us leave it as it is.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 16:19:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep01.035418.2447987@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

>Do you deny the equality beteen the names Palestine and Philistine?  If you
>do, just let me know so I can laugh a little more, I happened to
>like jokes.

You're the only person I know of who looks in the mirror and laughs.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:11:22 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep13.064902.6028@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
>That's the first time I remember hearing a claim that Palestinians
>are descended from Romans.  I suppose the occasional centurion might
>have dropped his jeans, er, genes.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


And what have you been up to then, Brian? :->>
>
>Brendan.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:39:43 GMT
Organization: AT&T
Originator: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com

In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?

  I would also like to ask a related question:

  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
this logical?


Regards,

Mazen Mokhtar
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.rights.human
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,news.admin
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: re: sipa's baaaack: ''The fanatic Greeks of our city,..."
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:01:56 GMT


In article <18ggliINN5n6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>"Scary" would be a better world; But we can all see that "Turkiye Elektronik
>Haber" is dream-teaming the Usenet world; no more wimpy feeds from places in
>the midwest or upper midwest (:-). Either we get the best or we don't.

And here's to the eternal "sipa".

Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the
        Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).

 page 203:

  <<The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the
  president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about
  persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter:

    ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace,
    have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity,
    making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night
    of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with
    clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they
    burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and
    the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited
    by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them
    at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he
    who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger
    against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year,
    on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses
    in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make
    no complaint about this in order not to create differences between
    the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics
    has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of
    hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>>

[42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU
     Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Rabin and Labor:Is Past Prologue?
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 03:17:40 GMT

In article <1483500295@igc.apc.org> Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair@igc.apc.org> writes:

>Palestinians, who have so far made all the concessions, had better 
>be prepared to make more, if they are not to assume Shamir's role of 
>the "obstinate" partner in the peace process.  Otherwise, Friedman 
>implies, the "deal" is off.

Could I be so bold as to ask for a list of concessions?  And could I
ask what the following actions by Israel are, if not concessions made?

* Halting new contracts for building outside the green line.

* Canceled the construction of roads and infrastruture in disputed
territories. 

* Stopped subsidising Israeli Industries in the disputed territories.

* Agreed to discuss territorial comprimise in the Golan Heights.

* Accepted in principle the participation of outside Palestinians in
multi-lateral talks.

* Agreed to more participation by the EC in talks.

* Agreed to move talks from Rome to Washington.
(I think this last is the stupidest move yet.  The talks should be
being held in the mideast.  Cairo would be a good place to start.

>later the military chief-of-staff during the Six Day War.  When he 
>entered Jerusalem on June 7, 1967 he "felt this was the height of my 
>life....as chief-of-staff to bring about the unification of the city...it's 
>fulfillment of a dream" (quoted in Donald Neff, WARRIORS FOR 
>JERUSALEM, p.233).

Good for him.  Americans cheered when the Berlin wall fell, and Berlin
was reunited.  Why some people seem to feel that Jerusalem was better
off as a devided city is beyond me.

>There is no reason to doubt Rabin means what he says when he 
>declares that "a unified Jerusalem is the heart of the Jewish people" 
>and is "not open for discussion" (YEDIOT AHRONOT, July 1) and 

Glad to hear his head is still attatched to his shoulders.




Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 10 Sep 92 09:11:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Sep7.160131.1719@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
=>
=> If you did not here it from something
=>directly related to the subjects in question, you have no business
=>dealing in it at all.  

This is going to make study of any history older than about 100 years ago
a little bit tricky?


-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Q: How many user support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: We have an exact copy of the light bulb here and it seems to be
   working fine.  Can you tell me what kind of system you have?  
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19905 talk.politics.soviet:7871 soc.culture.greek:8790 soc.culture.europe:8330 soc.history:8219