From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Slaves to Jesus was Defining the kingdom of God
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:32:30 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Dec15.010332.13746@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
>In article <12007@boyd.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>> The god in the Christian
>> myth definitely didn't lose his well-being for more than 33 years,
>> which, when divided by eternity, yields zero.
>
>A quite unselfish act imo, considering he his purported power,
>he could write everone off as a bad project.

Yes, he could have done, but he decided not to.  So what?  It didn't
cost him anything substantial.  He put into it 33 years out of his
eternal existence.  Which is nothing.

>> >would you(or anyone)give that up to
>> >become hungry, in pain, ridiculed, embarrassed, harrassed, and eventually
>> >beaten, whipped, and tortured for a bunch of humans? 
>> 
>> Maybe.  That would be no more surprising than my current occasional
>> willingness to leave the comfort of my warm home and go out in the rain.
>
>You go out in the rain to save the world? You must be pretty busy:-)

Not to save the world, no.  My goals are not that grand.

>> Whenever I go hillwalking, I accept the fact that I will become hungry
>> and tired.
>
>You're a pretty brave guy there Ivan!

No, I'm not.  I'm not much of a hillwalker, anyway.  You said that no
one would accept any inconvenience if he can avoid it.  I am arguing
against that.

>Well, the word tells us he made his state lower for the sake of
>us which would indicate to me that(in the flesh)he felt the same
>things everyone else felt, however, he was on a mission.

And he knew that this mission would end soon, no matter what happened,
and he would occupy his top place, never to leave it again.  This is
what made it impossible for him to feel what everyone else felt.  He
was unable to experience what it feels like to be hated and ridiculed
in the only life one will ever have.  He was unable to experience what
it means to die for good, without the prospective of being alive again
in two days.  It is as if they take you in a helicopter into the midst
of a desert and leave you there.  If you know that they'll be back to
pick you up in a few days, you won't be able to experience what it is
like to be lost in the desert, with only a faint hope to ever see a
human face again.

>I'm sure
>he didn't sit in the woods at night and cry about being ridiculed,
>but he _did_ subject himself to it by incarnating. Big deal(iyo),
>I wouldn't expect anything different or you wouldn't be a non-believer.

But you're doing an awfully poor job of clarifying why yo is so
different from mo.  I know I hate being ridiculed, but that is only
because I care for what happens to me in this life, which in turn is
because it is the only life I have.  This was not the case with Jesus,
so I fail to understand why being ridiculed mattered to him.  I might
as well dive in the bathtub for a few seconds to see what drowning is
all about.

>Of course you would believe that [there was no sacrifice at all],

I don't _believe_ so.  I _think_ so.  I have a definition of
sacrifice, which involves permanent substantial loss.  No permanent
substantial loss, no sacrifice.  No question of believing, just reasoning.

>so what else is new?

What is new is that I can't get it to you that it is impossible to
temporarily assume a ro^le and still claim to fully experience what it
feels to be in that ro^le for your entire existence.  It is ridiculous
for a bank manager to take a month off work in order to experience
what it is like to be unemployed.

>Aye 'im noot imprissed.

Neither am I.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
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