From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:24:11 GMT

In article <69377@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
}In article <1992Sep29.165853.28041@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}|In article <69009@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
}|}The OT points to Jesus the Christ and the NT reveals him as the fulfillment
}|}of the OT and tells of his return.  Many other historians have records
}|}about Jesus and his death at Pontius Pilate's hand.  I'm going
}|}to try and post some of these over the weekend.
}|
}|And to hop back, here is what I posted earlier that I'm relatively sure
}|that you conveniently forgot:
}
}Oh you mean your refutation of all of the Bible. :-)
}This is where you give possible contradictions without really 
}disproving the Bible, correct?

Gee, guess you DID conveniently forget what I posted.  You claimed
prophecy, and that is precisely what I addressed.  I know that it is
tough trying to keep such an internally inconsistent reference strraight, but
do try to keep a better picture of your bible, will you?

}|	_Evidence_That_Demands_a_Verdict_ is a book that presents "historical
}|evidences for the christian faith".  It is produced by the Campus Crusade for
}|Christ, Inc and was prepared by a Magna Cum Laude graduate of Talbot 
}|Theological Seminary.  
}|}			1. Born of the seed of woman
}|
}|GEN 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the  woman,  and
}|between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou
}|shalt bruise his heel.
}|
}|			Like, who isn't?  EVERYONE (iaw the Bible, anyway) is
}|			a descendent of a woman.
}
}Everyone but Jesus was born of a man's seed.  Jesus was born miraculously
}with only the aid of a human female.

So?  That wasn't what was claimed.  Of course, there are a couple of minor
problems with your claim:
1. That wasn't what was claimed in the first place.
2. They seem to put a great deal of emphasis on his FATHERS geneology.
3. What makes you think that that is the ONLY case?  Parthogenesis happens.
4. What makes you think that it happened in this case?  Bastards happen.

}|}			2. born of a virgin
}|	James J. Lippard writes:
}
}How does JJJ wisdom compare with Jesus?

Basically, we KNOW what JJL said, and he is available for asking him back.
Neither of which happens to be true of Jesus.

}|		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
}|	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
}|	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
}|	fulfilled.
}
}But, since Jesus is God, he was God with us (the meaning of Immanuel).

So?  Not what was said.  PLEASE get more familiar with your bible.

}|		But the most serious problem with this alleged messianic 
}|	prophecy is that it has been taken out of context.  Looking at the 
}|	entire seventh chapter of Isaiah, it becomes clear that the child 
}|	in question is to be born as a sign to Ahaz, King of Judah, that 
}|	he will not be defeated in battle by Rezin, King of Syria, and 
}|	Pekah, son of the King of Israel.  Jesus' birth was some seven 
}|	centuries late to be such a sign.
}
}The witness (his life, works, past and future) of Jesus is the 
}heart/fulfillment/spirit of all prophecy. Rev 19:10
}Jesus taught the disciples how the OT pointed to himself - better than
}you can know.

And (apparently) other than what YOU know.  Guess you didn't bother to
read either the original post OR the last paragraph of this one where
I specifically address this claim.

}|		J. Edward Barrett (1988, p. 14) points out evidence that 
}|	early Christians rejected the virgin birth.  One piece of 
}|	Barrett's evidence is that in 1 Timothy 1:3-4, the writer (who may 
}|	or may not be the apostle Paul) advises that his audience 
}
}Oh.

Amazing, isn't it.  Maybe THEY were right and YOU are wrong.
Learn your bible.

}|}			4. seed of Abraham
}|	James J. Lippard writes:
}|	"	There are various alleged genealogical prophecies about the 
}|	ancestry of the Messiah.  It is claimed that Genesis 22:18 and 
}|	12:2-3 are prophecies that the Messiah will be a descendent of 
}|	Abraham, but these verses say nothing about the Messiah.  They say 
}|	simply that the descendents of Abraham will be blessed."
}
}I believe if you look you will see that the whole world will be blessed
}through Abraham's offspring - again, Jesus is the spirit of prophecy
}and he had ample time to teach his disciples this, after his resurrection.

Guess what?  Jesus is NOT the whole world.  Isn't it wonderful to be able
to re-write whatever you wish?  Appears to be a favorite of "prophecies".
And there were a number tortured to death who wouldn't happen to agree that
anything about Jesus was so wonderful and blessed them - and they ARE
part of the "whole world".

}|}			5. son of Isaac
}|
}|GEN 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be  grievous  in
}|thy  sight  because  of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in
}|all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her  voice;  for
}|in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
}|
}|Looks more like instructions to name Abraham's son Isaac to me...
}
}Again, I mention the spirit of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy.
Not, of course, to be confused with the body of actuality...

}|}			8. family line of Jesse
}|ISA 10:33  Behold, the Lord, the LORD of  hosts,  shall  lop  the
}|bough  with  terror:  and  the high ones of stature shall be hewn
}|down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
}|ISA 10:34  And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest  with
}|iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.
}|ISA 11:1  And there shall come forth a rod out  of  the  stem  of
}|Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
}|ISA 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall  rest  upon  him,  the
}|spirit  of  wisdom  and  understanding, the spirit of counsel and
}|might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
}|ISA 11:3  And shall make him of quick understanding in  the  fear
}|of  the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes,
}|neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
}|ISA 11:4  But with righteousness shall he  judge  the  poor,  and
}|reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite
}|the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of  his
}|lips shall he slay the wicked.
}|
}|Excuse me, but this appears to be talking about a quite destructive individual,
}|who causes the downfall of Lebanon, and slays the wicked with his words.
}|Sounds much more like a conquering war-king than Jesus.
}
}Jesus, as you obviously don't know, will come back and be a conqueror -
}read Revelations - who is that might king? It is Jesus the Christ.

Gonna gonna gonna.  So you claim that they are talking about what WILL
happen and not this body that appeared a couple thousand years ago?
Deny the guy, Richard.
I would say "three crows", except the NT contradicts itself on that, too.

}
}|}			9. house of David
}|
}|JER 23:3  And I will gather the remnant of my flock  out  of  all
}|countries  whither  I have driven them, and will bring them again
}|to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
}|JER 23:4  And I will set up shepherds over them which shall  feed
}|them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall
}|they be lacking, saith the LORD.
}|JER 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith  the  LORD,  that  I  will
}|raise  unto  David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
}|prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
}|JER 23:6  In his days Judah shall  be  saved,  and  Israel  shall
}|dwell  safely:  and  this is his name whereby he shall be called,
}|THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
}|JER 23:7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,  that
}|they  shall  no  more  say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the
}|children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
}|JER 23:8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up  and  which  led
}|the  seed  of  the  house of Israel out of the north country, and
}|from all countries whither I had  driven  them;  and  they  shall
}|dwell in their own land.
}|
}|I don't recall this description as fitting Jesus.  Sounds more like a great
}|unifying King.  Even if Josh was 100% right on his assertions on 4-9,
}|if it were the last it HAD to be the earlier.  Not, even by his assumptions,
}|vaguely independent events.
}
}I'd have to look closer,
Wouldn't hurt in a number of cases...

}but the whole of the OT points to a unification
}of Israel and the destruction of her enemies - Jesus is the one who
}will do this - You know he is Lord - it says the Lord liveth.  Malachi 3
}tells us from the words of the Lord Almgiht that he (the Lord) will come
}and he will be the messenger of the covenant - Jesus was that messenger.

Maybe we should tell the various Arabic nations that they were destroyed
centuries ago.  Or maybe your diety just isn't very efficient?

}|	James J. Lippard writes on 5,6,7,8,and 9:
}|	"Other 
}|	claimed prophecies about the Messiah's ancestry are that he will 
}|	be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Micah 5:2), of the family 
}|	line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10), and of the house of David 
}|	(Jeremiah 23:5, 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 132:11).  Some of these 
}|	do appear to be genuine messianic prophecies, but others simply 
}|	seem to refer to future kings.  All of these verses refer to 
}|	kings--and thus none have been fulfilled by Jesus.
}
}Again, I appeal to Jesus being the spirit of prophecy.

Naturally.  When the facts don't agree with you, go for the unfalsifiable.
You are denying the Body of Christ again?

}|		But the problems for these prophecies run even deeper.  Is 
}|	Jesus actually of the tribe of Judah, the family line of Jesse, 
}|	and the house of David?  The sole evidence for this is two sets of 
}|	genealogies for Jesus, in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38.  Both 
}|	of these trace Jesus' lineage through his father, Joseph.  If the 
}
}No, Luke traces through Mary.
Look closer.  And READ instead of WISH.

}|	virgin birth story is taken seriously, then Jesus lacks the proper 
}|	ancestry.  On the other hand, if the genealogy in Matthew is taken 
}|	seriously, then Jesus has as an ancestor Jeconiah (Matthew 1:12), 
}|	of whom the prophet Jeremiah said, "Write this man down as 
}|	childless, a man who will not prosper in his days, for no man of 
}|	his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or 
}|	ruling again in Judah." (Jeremiah 22:30)  The genealogy in Luke 
}
}That is why Joseph did not father Jesus - the Holy Spirit empowered
}Mary to conceived.  Jesus was so born of a women's seed.

Right. hehehehhe

}|	suffers from the same problem, since it includes Shealtiel and 
}|	Zerubbabel, both of whom were descendents of Jeconiah."
}
}I'd have to check this.

Among other things.

}|}		       10. born at Bethlehem
}|		Funny thing.  While McDowell gives Micah 5:2 as
}|	the "prophecy", his discussion doesn't mention it at all.
}|
}|And Micah goes on talking about a military conquest of Assyria and the
}|gentiles.  Doesn't sound a lot like the Prince of Peace...
}
}There is more to Jesus than just the Prince of Peace, for he will
}bring peace, but those who are his enemies, will suffer.

Of course.  This "god" of yours is one of pain, suffering, blood,
and torture.  Would not want to confuse it with love and forgiveness.

}|}		       11. presented with gifts
}|
}|		According to the prophecy, the Kings of Tarshish, the isles,
}|		Sheba and Seba were suppose to be there.  But no Kings are
}|		mentioned, just Magi.
}|
}|And as for the poor:
}|
}|MAT 26:11  For ye have the poor always with you; but me  ye  have
}|not always.
}|
}|MAR 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye
}|will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
}|
}|
}|JOH 12:8  For the poor always ye have with you; but  me  ye  have
}|not always.
}|
}|AKA "looking out for number one".
}
}Maybe, being poor is not the worst thing that can happen to someone.
}I grew up rather unwealth and I appreciate what I have more than
}many who grew up with enough.  I didn't go hungry, but we didn't
}have much either.

Wisdom, apparently, numbering among those things you missed.  I must
agree with your posting of yesterday that claimed that you know little.

}|}		       12. Herod kills children
}
}Again, as I keep pleading - Jesus was the spirit of prophecy.

Isn't this the third time you DENY the BODY of Christ?
Good thing you can keep dreaming of this "spirit" when the reality
doesn't happen to agree with you.  But since you don't mind claiming
that it is an undemonstratable verification of OT prophecies, maybe
you should drop pretending that there is any OBJECTIVE reality to it.

BTW:  How was he the "spiritual fulfillment" of a prophecy of killing
children?

}|}		       13. his pre-existence
}|Which doesn't, to me, appear to have anything to do with it.
}
}Again, as I keep pleading - Jesus was the spirit of prophecy.

Fourth time?  A shame that you HAVE to keep pleading "spirit of
prophecy" because it is begining to look as though you HAVE to, since
he clearely isn't the BODY of prophecy.

}
}|}		       14. he shall be called Lord
}|	COX, RALPH LUTHER, III writes:
}|	"The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
}|	bibles to denote divinity in this lord.  But, in the Hebrew, the
}|	word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists.  Adoni simply means
}|	"lord," a generic term as we would use it.  It is used often in
}|	the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd.  It is merely an
}|	address of respect.  
}|	      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
}|	refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king."
}
}Adoni is translated to the greek equivalent of Lord (kurios, I believe)
}in the Septuagint, the greek version of the OT.

So after how many "translations"?  Let's translate that through QWERTYism,
which make it "@ssh@le".  Happy yet?

}|}		       15. shall be Immanuel (God with us)
}|	James J. Lippard writes:
}|		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
}|	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
}|	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
}|	fulfilled.
}
}Covered already.
Another "spirit", since the facts don't reflect it?

}|}		       17. priest
}Jesus said he came note to abolish but to fulfill - 
}which is to say he came to complete the law.  

That's nice.  What does that have to do with the SPECIFIC verses I gave.
Ans: zip.

}
}The following verses illuminate this - read all
}of Hebrew 7-10, if you are interested.

Don't know how to break this to you, but I've read the entire thing
cover-to-cover a number of times.

}|It is clear to me (in context) that they are NOT referring to any
}|Prince of Peace but a vicious, but a warrior/king.
}
}Again, you don't have the full concept of who Jesus is.  
No (you can encompass the infinite within your mind?  What a claim!)
But I can tell what it is NOT.

}If you
}remember in Luke 4, where Jesus says today the scipture is fulfilled
}about the captives being set free and what not, you can refer back
}to Isaiah and see that the rest of the passage, which Jesus did not
}cite or say is fulfilled, proclaimed the day of VENGEANCE of our God.
}Isaiah 61:2.  This is to come.

As the Church Lady said: "How connnnvvvveeeennnnient!"  Would want the
recorded actuality to get in the way.  Or maybe you are again denying this
ancient jew and are proposing the messiah yet to come?

}|}		       19. king
}|		Obviously not.  Making the claim and not being able to
}|		back it up is what was claimed to have gotten him terminated.
}
}Later, kings can be attacked, but Jesus rose from the dead.

Really?  Nice claim.  Unsupported though.
Tell you what: Vllad Dracul also arose from the dead.  What test do
you propose that one can pass that the other can't?
I've already noticed that you seem to fail to be able to come up with
any test of MY godhood that Jesus or Yahweh CAN pass.

}|}		       20. special anointment of Holy Spirit
}|		"Annointed One" means messiah.  There were numerous
}|		announced contenders at the time.
}
}Who won?

I did. As witnessed by my continuing DIRECT mission.(not carried out by
substitutes, also-rans, incomplete prophets,...)

}|}		       21. his zeal for God
}|		How is this suppose to serve as an identifier?  Besides
}|		which, the term was in the "prophecy" but not in his given
}|	"fulfilment" verse.  Now the prophecy:
}|
}|
}|I can go on with trash concerning "his minestry" and "his death".
}|Equally silly.
}
}Correct, equally silly.  For you don't want to believe the
}truth, but prefer you own ideas.

Funny.  I can give the precise text and objectively verifiables and you keep
harping on "spirit of prophecy".  Who seems to have their argument based
on belief and ideas and whose is based on truth?

Hint:  you don't seem to come up with arguments except for "spirit of ___",
"yet to come" and "I don't know that", mine is based upon recorded
text.  You're dreaming and wishing, Pitts.


Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc