From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Why I Am a Feminist
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:38:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.000026.15585@midway.uchicago.edu> mec6@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.163209.3920@netcom.com> 
>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
> 
>>I think a valid point that is usually missing in most feminist postings
>>is that most of the things men do most of the time are productive and/or
>>constructive.
>
>Okay, I'm with ya so far...
>
>>Men and women both have good points and bad points, strengths and
>>weaknesses. Reading posts here gives one the impression that the only
>>things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have
>>sex with their children, etc... 
>
>Oh please.  You're tempting me to pull your post that says, "Who here has
>said this!  Give examples!  If things are as you paint, you should be
>able to point just about *any* post to prove your point!" or something
>like that.  (Then we could have 50,000 follow-ups where I go, "BUT IS
>THIS REPRESENTATIVE!!".)  But I think it's not a good idea to get Rich
>started.  :)

Well, there are a few duplications, but there were 175 instances of the
word rape in the last 10 days. Here is a list, I can compress the posts
and mail them to you if you want.

There is some duplication here, I need to write some filter scripts.
But this is just the last 10 days.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
    making 59 cents on the dollar, getting raped, and having ALL the
(Stuff about how pinup calendars incite men to rape...)
> >I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. Apparently the victim
> When this response is given to women as an excuse for rape, sexual harrassment,
> had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that relate
> horror of rape."
> not rape. Dating is not rape. Rape is a felony. When feminists use the word
> opportunity to criticize "feminists" for expanding the definition of rape
> rape like that, they degrade its meaning and desensitize people to the true
> toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
> type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
> worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
>(in general). If you use almost any of the radfem (?) definitions of rape,
>> >"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has 
>>>(in general). If you use almost any of the radfem (?) definitions of rape,
>>>I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. Apparently the
>>>If a women could send a man to jail (for rape) because
>>>So you think that it is OK to call it rape when the woman 
>>And what are these "radfem" definitions? You know rape is rape, and
>>If a women could send a man to jail (for rape) because
>>So you think that it is OK to call it rape when the woman did not initiate sex,
>>into a bunch of people who cry rape, and think poorly of men.  Tch
>>rape is about power, and rape is horrifying and demeaning and
>>seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
>>toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
>>worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
>And what are these "radfem" definitions? You know rape is rape, and
>I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. Apparently the victim
>If a women could send a man to jail (for rape) because
>One I'll call 'raped by a rake.'  The rake isn't really a bad guy; he's just 
>Should the father be notified in cases of rape, incest, abuse, uncertain
>So you think that it is OK to call it rape when the woman did not initiate sex,
>Suppose you are 12 years old and your father has statutorily raped you.
>Suppose your husband sexually abuses your older two children and has raped you
>The rape scenario has to do with avoiding responsibility for sex rather than 
>This scene isn't really rape, because she does want it.  Its a rough, forceful
>are more likely to be attacked -- robbed, raped, murdered --
>be raped.  Now it sounds like your open to a different interpretation.
>because women read books in which the hero rapes the heroine, women want to 
>had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that relate
>happened. But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
>increasing female representation in government, and tougher rape laws and
>into a bunch of people who cry rape, and think poorly of men.  Tch
>novel.  From what I remember, there seems to be two basic rape scenarios.
>of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
>rape is about power, and rape is horrifying and demeaning and
>scepticism about when rape occurs.  
>seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
>things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have
>toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
>type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
>violence and date rape.  I march and rally and campaign for what I believe
>worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
>|      ... But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
And what are these "radfem" definitions? You know rape is rape, and
Ask the feminists who claim that all sex is rape and that it is rape
DSA>Should the father be notified in cases of rape, incest, abuse, uncertain
DSA>Suppose you are 12 years old and your father has statutorily raped you.
DSA>Suppose your husband sexually abuses your older two children and has raped you
Dworkin's -all sex is rape-, and -whenever a women does not initiate
I have heard women brandy the threat of rape. It is a potent weapon. But
I recently read a blurb about a rape case being tried. Apparently the victim
I've been following this subject line (Elle causes rape) for a few days, and I
Indeed they have.  Why, spousal rape is only legal in about half of the states
My original post made no mention of rape, nor has any subsequent post.
Not the "desires and wishes."  I have plenty of rape fantasies, but I
Now I am incorrectly given ownership of the rape thread, and the 
One I'll call 'raped by a rake.'  The rake isn't really a bad guy; he's just 
Should the father be notified in cases of rape, incest, abuse, uncertain
Subject: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Suppose you are 12 years old and your father has statutorily raped you.
Suppose your husband sexually abuses your older two children and has raped you
This scene isn't really rape, because she does want it.  Its a rough, forceful
Well actually, I know several men who have been raped by women.
When this response is given to women as an excuse for rape, sexual harrassment,
Whether she is talking about bilingual education, date rape,
all expect from me by now, which is that not all feminists define rape as
and if she consents to these advances, she has been raped.  
are more likely to be attacked -- robbed, raped, murdered --
be raped.  Now it sounds like your open to a different interpretation.
because women read books in which the hero rapes the heroine, women want to 
but he doesn't fantasize about *being* raped.  Many female feminists
causes rape, she might be just a little bit too far over already...
could there be for re-defining rape in such broad terms except to give
define rape so as to cover almost any sexual situation. Rape cannot
earth," she cries. If bad-mouthing rape counselors and Act Up got her
had been raped and she thought it was terrible.  But how did that relate
happened. But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
have neither a desire nor a wish to be raped.  For that matter, I have
horror of rape."
how that type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it."
increasing female representation in government, and tougher rape laws and
into a bunch of people who cry rape, and think poorly of men.  Tch
is found in lots of rape cases - a condemnation by the first grand jury of
lot of women fantasize about rape.
not rape. Dating is not rape. Rape is a felony. When feminists use the word
novel.  From what I remember, there seems to be two basic rape scenarios.
of rape.  Obviously (to me at any rate) this attitude stems from the
opportunity to criticize "feminists" for expanding the definition of rape
porno-imbalance thread, and in a rape-free context. It was dropped
primarily feature submission to domination, even rape; 
probably because I was accused of causing rape.  I suppose I should call
rape is about power, and rape is horrifying and demeaning and
rape like that, they degrade its meaning and desensitize people to the true
rape scenario has to do with avoiding responsibility for sex rather than 
raped, I can also understand that the Elle calendar offends her, but I
retribution by the abuser.  Abuse and rape are difficult to establish.  In
scepticism about when rape occurs.  
seems to me that in attempting to exclude rape from accepted 
sex it i rape-. Do you agree with these?  
there is more to rape than just the claim. And the feminist extremists
things men do deserving consideration is to rape, sexually harrass, have
to tell me after I raped her, the children, and the dog. Is that it?
toss off and then go rape women.  I mention to her that statistics of
type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it.
violence and date rape.  I march and rally and campaign for what I believe
violence and rape-crisis lines are closing for lack of funding.
women power over men in all sexual situations. If she yells rape, then
worship death, that intercourse implies rape, etc.). 
|      ... But the New Feminist Rules go far beyond just "don't rape
|> how that type of thing causes rape.  She has several friends and she knows it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will research any other topic where you think that I have overstated
the case.

>>In this regard, most feminists seem
>>to go along with macho standards. It is expected that men work and
>>support their families or spouses (if they have them). It can be ignored.
>
>I have never seen feminists support the expectation that men work and 
>support their families or spouses.  No, because "support" implies 
>"dependency" and that's what feminists are very vocally against.

I will accept your point. That was not really what I wanted to say, but
something awkward (work) got in the way. As I cannot clarify my argument
right now, I will address it later.
 
>(Lose one point for child custody/support laws/habits, but the basic 
>argument still stands.)
>
>rini

Rich

payner@netcom.com


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