From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: In-persona debate is fun!
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:49:23 GMT
Organization: The Internet


[nb: this is an in-persona response to Hossein's
response, and an invitation to other to do likewise]

Unto all who read these words, most especially
the learned and exalted scholar Hossein Ali
Qomi -may the Lord shine his face upon him for'
ten generations- and his wife Angharad -may the
Holy One bless her with long life and many sons-
greetings from Yaakov.

Oh most learned brother, your writing
hath revealed to me the true nature
of this our discussion, and -l'havdil-
just as the angel of the Lord revealed unto Hagar a
spring in the deseret, so have your words opened my
eyes to this argument that you set before me.

But, before we may come to the meat of this
discussion, we must first set lay to rest some few
particulars.

You did say that you rose not to criticize my
friend Christian, but in defense of your friend,
Stephen of the Grove.  I therefore beg forgiveness
for any insult.  As to the matter of courtesy, I shall
deal with that below.

You also write that, in the manner of the jihad
of which you spoke, you refer to the jihad al-nafs,
that crusade against weakness in ourselves.  If
that be the case, how shall I disagree?  Surely it
is incumbent upon us all, as we love the Lord (may
he shine his face upon us in mercy and not in wrath!),
to wage eternal war against the yetzer harah, the evil
inclination in ourselves.  and has not our Master,
the great Moses Ben Maimon (called by the Franks
Maimonides)(may he live to be a hundred and twenty)
instructed us similarly in his Shmoneh Prakim?
But on these matters we need not dwell, seeing as
how we agree.

You have also written: "If I give offense, I crave
pardon."  Surely you have given none to me, oh
most learned and exalted scholar.  And I, also, crave
pardon for any affront I have given you.

Now, with these matters set aside, let us
procede to the right, proper, and truthful
interpretation of the dispute that lies between
us.  and let my words be as hot gold, poured
into the mouths of they who would distract us
with insults or matters of personality.

It seems that ther be two matters on which we
dispute.  First, whether the process of filk
has a place in our Society.  Second, what is
the basic duty of courtesy, and by whose standard
shall it be measured.  For none save the sons of
Amalek (curse be their names!) prize discourtesy.
And were not the people of Sodom, according to our Sages
of blessed memory, destroyed for their cruely to
one another?  And do not we, the people of Israel,
languish in cruel exile for the discourtesy that
Kamsa did bar-Kamsa in the presence of the people
of Jerusalem?  Therefore, it is surely worthy to
debate the respect with which one must deal with
another.  For, as our sages have taught, the Holy
One shall forgive the tresspases against himself
(on the Day of Atonement) but not those wrought
against one's fellow man.

But, before I begin, I address this fear of the
learned and forthright Lady Angharad (may the
Lord bless her forever and ever).  You fear that
this discourse may burn as hot as the flames of
Gehanom, and thus great damage be wrought.
In this matter, let us be as the schools of Shamai
and Hillel, who did debate heatedly in the assembly
on matters of law, but whose sons did marry
the other's daughters.

As to the matter of filk, it seems that
you would make a gezairah (that is, a fence)
around our Society.  You say, it seems to me:
Even where it does no harm (at a post-revel,
or here on the Rialto), it encourages others to do
likewise.  They shall come to forget that it
should not be done wat gatherings, and then
shall they be lead to sin.  and in thus manner
have our teachers of blessed memory done in
times past.
The Lady Angharad also speaks of diverting one's
creative energy, of which there be a limited
supply, from those activities which we should encourage.

Yet, in these matters I believe you are mistaken,
as I shall attempt to prove below.

Come and learn!  First, this prohibition
which you would lay down will not be obeyed.
And as our Rabbis (the memory of the righteous
be a blessing) learned in the Matter of The Oil,
one must not make prohibittions which the people
may not keep. (Here I speak, of course, of the
prohibitions made by men, not those decreed
by the Holy Rock of Our Salvation. For, as
it is written that Moses, our Master, said
"It is a little thing for you to do.")  And
to make such a prohibition on filk would be
a great evil, and inspire hatred and contempt
for the law.  And the people would not obey it.
Better to allow it outside of eevnts.
Then shall the people be thus weaned away
from their habits, and keep the events properly.
For thus has The Place done many times, with
manny commandments, caused the children of
Israel to be weaned away from evil customs.

Another explanation: I say that, in my own
unworthy opinion, filk be not all bad.  some
is good.  Some says things that I should wish
I might have wisdom to say.  While very many are
but poor mockeries of music, so is much of the
poetry one may hear in the court before some
princeling or noble.  But, shjould you prevent
all filk, than those which please the spirit
shall ne'er be written.  and this I should
hold to be a bad thing, for as the Sages of
Old (blessed is the memory of the righteous) have
said: the Lord shall hold a man accountable for
every pleasure which he could legitimately
have indulged in, but did not.  Now as
to the correct interpretation of this statement,
our Master Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (may he live
to a hundred and twenty) has written elsewhere.

But, in this matter, you may discount my
opinion. for I have written filk.  and, as the
Torah tells us: Do not take bribes, for
it blinds the eyes of the wise.  What does this
mean?  That in any matter in which one has self-
interest, it blinds one to the proper truth.

However, because of this experience, I may
speak to the most learned Lady Angharad's
point, that somehow creativity be channeled
away from good and proper works.

In this, my lady, I fear I must contradict
you (and may the lord beat me with Scorpions
for my6 temerity).  My creativity goes where
it will, and I cannot compel it.  If a song
enter my head, and will not leave 'til I write
it down, than I shall write it down, for
surely no other thought shall enter my poor
brain (which, being small, can but hold one
thought at a time) until I have relieved
it of this burden.  But in this I perceive the
hand of the Holy One, Blessed Be He, who
inspires all thought and creativity.

Now, as to the matter of courtesy, my
Lady has posted mush on the courtesy of
the Christians, and my most learned brother
Hossein has posted much on the courtesy of
the children of Ishmael.  and yet, I may tell
you, that among our people we would not have it
so.  For, as the rabbis have said (may their
memory watch over us and be as a blessing)
'To embarrass someone is like killing them.'
Now, by this I do not mean that we must not
warn them that they do wrong.  As it is written:
Thou shalt not put a stumbling block before the
blind.  What does this mean?  That one must
not allow another to sin, but must warn him
in a manner in which he will hear.  And
has not our Master Rashi (may his memory be
as a blessing ) taught: It is said in
parshat mishpatim (Known to the Christians
as the Book of Exodus) that, if one
steals a sheap, one pays four times as much
as the worth of the animal, yet, if one steal an
Ox, he shall pay five times as much. Why?
Because the sheep follows its master on its
little legs, but not another, whereas the
ox follows anyone who leads it.  Therefore
must the theif humiliate himself when he
steals a sheep and carry it on his shoulders.
And The Holy One, Blessed be He, holds the
embarassement of the theif to be worth the
price of the sheep.  therefore does He compensate
the theif for his humiliation, and causes the
theif to pay but four times the worth of the
animal as a fine, not five times.'

So, this that you decry as 'modern'
courtesy be not modern to us.  But rather
have we always been concerned with the feelings
of others, even unto the meanest theif.

May the Holy One, Blessed be He, protect
you both and cause you to prosper

Yaakov HaMizrachi
,.