From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:47:38 GMT

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes: >

>I dropeed the xref to alt.atheism.  I hadn't realized it was a place to
>discuss reinforcement of that religion, as opposed to looking at both
>sides of the issue.

Mr. Saal, that is both disrespectful and inaccurate.  Given your
comments later in your post about attacks on Judaism, your remarks
on atheism and a.a. are especially hypocritical.

Please read the a.a. FAQs before making comments like
calling atheism a religion.  It most certainly is not.

(I put a.a. back in the thread because of this comment
alone.  The remainder has to do with the s.c.j. thread)

rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston) writes: >>
saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:  >>>
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes: >>>>

[pointless flaming between Messrs. Johnston and Saal deleted]

>>>>Later readings from other atheist scholars helped confirm my beliefs,
>>>>but these experiences got me there.  I should also add that since my
>>>>father's religious indoctrination (of me) seemed more motivated by
>
>>>I find it interesting that there are atheist "scholars" but no religious
>>>ones.  Religion is summed up in her post as no more intellectual than
>>>"indoctrination."
>
>>Ahem. You must be reading a different post than I, Mr. Saal. Nowhere
>>does Maddi say any such thing. Arguement-by-putting-words-in-other-
>>people's-mouths is not a valid debating technique. Try again Mr. Saal.
>
>Pray tell, what words did I put in her mouth?  "scholar"?
>"indoctrination"?

This is a misleading quotation by Mr. Saal.  Earlier in my article,
I referred to studying Judaism and other religions in more
depth.  Mr. Saal chose not to include that comment, and then
implied I said that religion has no scholarly authors.  Mr. Johnston
is correct in calling Mr. Saal on this.

>>>>duty than his own belief, that this didn't help matters.  My dad is
>>>>a Holocaust escapee, and has a strong need to carry on his religion.
>>>>Unfortunately (for him), I saw no comfort, love or beauty in it; just 
>>>>a lot of "Thou Shalt Nots" and "How can you question this religion your
>>>>ancestors died for?"  I understand what he wants, but it didn't make
>>>>me want it for me.  He's pretty much failed with my brother, too.  I
>>>>still don't think he's figured out why.  I hope any theist 
>>>>parents reading this learn from his example.
>
>>>If all you can do is view religion, espceially Judaism, as a series of
>>>"don't do's" you have missed out on more than just education.

Here, again, Mr. Saal misses the point of the essay.  Of course
there is more to Judaism, and to most other religions, than a
series of Thou Shalt Nots.  What I tried to get across was that
my father failed in showing me this.  It may there for others,
but it was *not* communicated to me.  Mr. Saal attacks me for
drawing a conclusion based on my very real experiences.  
Furthermore, Mr. Saal attacks me after I took the trouble to
share these experiences with s.c.j. in the interest of the
parents here who do not want their children turned away from
their faith.  I would suggest Mr. Saal learn to understand
theme and intent before insulting people for describing their
lives.

>>By the way, use of generic, meaningless terms like growing does not
>>help to vaidate your arguements, Mr. Saal. Only the abilities to use
>>Logic and Reason can do that. Isn't it unfortunate how many people
>>have lost use of these abilities?
>
>There are plenty of studies to back this up, not that you'd prefer to
>know rather than rant, so why not look up any of the recent Jewish
>demographic studies - Bnai Brith publishes one every year or so - or you
>might read "A Certain People" by Silvermann.  The bookm, or its source
>material should serve.

There are plenty of studies to back *what* up?  I really do not know
what Mr. Saal is referring to here.

>>I know lots of Jews, MR. Saal. I was born Jewish. You, sir, are no Jew,
>>only a close minded bigot. Unless you care to argue that all Jews are such. 
>>This I will also argue against.
>
>I suppose I must be something of a bigot in that I feel sorry (at best)
>for those so close minded as to be able to reject something like Judaism
>without knowing anything about it.
>
>BTW, how does your own Jewish birth give you the right, let alone the
>ability, to ascertain _my_ Jewishness?

I don't want to get into the pointless game of "Who is More Jewish?"
Suffice it to say that I have dealt with Mr. Saal before on s.c.j.
and I am saddened to find that he hasn't changed his tune in the
last two years.  He is still rigid, unforgiving, and opinionated.
His vehement criticism of my life experiences are inappropropriate.
I would never suggest that he is misguided in practicing Judaism.

Anyway, I don't worry too much about his attacks, because they
seem to be his way of coping with people who disagree with him.
 
>>To those of you reading this on soc.culture.jewish; I suggest that
>>you teach Mr.Saal that It is not a good thing for him to give 
>>anti-semites ammunition.
>
>Pray tell, what lesson do you recommend?

I second the motion.  Mr. Saal, it is people like you that led
me away from the *cultural* community of Jews.  You can catch more
flies with honey than with vinegar.  Try a lighter touch.

>>To Maddi I would like to say that I appreciate your posts and
>>your work as moderator of rec.humor.moderated.
>
>Me, too.  Especially rec.humor.*funny*.  That was my point.  On the other
>hand, your need to rant was apparently so strong you couldn't even see the
>silly mistake you made in your own post. Hint.  What newsgroup does she
>moderate?

So he made a mistake.  Big deal.  I thank you both for your support
of r.h.f.  I wish some s.c.j. readers would submit some of the jokes
being posted lately; some have been quite good.  (But don't send
them to this account!)

>>To Mr. Saal: I  Feel very, very sorry for you. Please don't have 
>>children; If you are the one teaching them, I fear for their 
>>well being. Please lock yourself up somewhere, and throw away the key.
>>You are a very scary, pathetic person.
>
>The bitterness, venom, and anger make me thankful I have a long
>tradition of values on which to base my behavior.  Maybe in a couple
>thousand years you might also attain a degree of civility.

Again, I second Mr. Johnston's motion.  Mr. Saal, you are a very
angry person; so much so, you cannot even recognize it.  I do
not condemn you, but I am thankful I do not share your outlook.
It is a frightening way to live.

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.

Centigram Communications Corp, San Jose California  408/428-3553
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish