From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:24:06 GMT

In article <22562@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.152611.20469@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:


I wrote:
>> The second reason may be more compelling, and is rooted in biology
>> (e.g., Richard Dawkins "Selfish Gene") and anthropology (e.g., the
>> cultural materialism of Marvin Harris).  Basically, if "valuing"
>> Judaism means anything, it means ensuring the Judaism continues.
>> Historically, intermarriage has, in the overwhelming majority of 
>> cases, meant that the children or grandchildren will no longer identify
>> themselves as Jews.  Those who value Judaism will thus oppose
>> intermarriage.  Those who do not value Judaism (or who hold other
>> values to be over-riding) will find no objection to intermarriage.

Yigal replied:
>First, you are taking an analogy from biology and applying it to
>something else entirely.  As others have pointed out, being Jewish is
>not a genetic trait.  So I think it is safe to ignore your "references"
>and address the rest of your argument, to wit:

The argument was not that Judaism is a genetic trait (clearly it is
not), but that natural selection can work on cultural as well as
biological phenomena.  That's why I cited both Dawkins (an evolutionary
biologist) and Harris (an anthropoligist).  Don't ignore the references
until you understand them.

>     1. Historically, intermarriage has, in the overwhelming majority of
>        cases, meant that the children or grandchildren will no longer
>        identify themselves as Jews.
>     2. Those who value Judaism will thus oppose intermarriage.  Those
>        who do not value Judaism (or who hold other values to be
>        over-riding) will find no objection to intermarriage.
>	
>To this I respond:
>
>You must show that 1. is even true, and that it causes *more* of what
>you consider a "loss" of Jews than in the general population that does
>not intermarry.  This is by no means obvious.

It may not be obvious to you, but the data have convinced sociologists.

>As for 2., it is obviously not the case -- you are substituting your
>personally favored definition of Judaism for this to work.  The
>strangeness of your assertion is apparent when one just considers that
>about half of Jews in the US marry non-Jews, and I would guess that many
>more do not object to the idea.  Are you saying that the majority of
>Jews do not value Judaism, and only you -- in a minority -- do?  Why
>should your definition of Judaism and Jewish values be preferred?  Is it
>not more reasonable to conclude that Judaism -- as understood by the
>majority of Jews -- does not preclude marriages between Jews and
>non-Jews?

I haven't specified any particular form of Judaism.  But if the
effect of intermarriage is (as sociologists agree) loss of Jewish
identity, it necessarily follows that those who intermarry are
acting in ways which lead to the disappearance of Judaism.  I don't
know of any seriously commited and active Jews (Reform, Conservative,
or Orthodox) that do not oppose intermarriage.  Do you?

>> Everything I know about Sam (and about almost all other scj posters)
>> suggests that he (and they) value Judaism, and want to ensure its
>> continuity.
>
>Except that this brings us, again, to the discussion of what "Judaism"
>really is.  You surely realize by now that the view that it is defined
>by Orthodox religious standards is held by a very small minority.

Who said anything about Orthodoxy?  Does the Reform movement favor
intermarriage?  The Conervatives?  Reconstructionist?






-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish