HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Making up patrols
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 92 16:07:49 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: usa
Keywords: patrol

In article <1992Oct2.021849.28137@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> dunne@physics (Robert C. Dunne) writes:
>I would like to know how other troops make up patrols. We have tried
>different methods with mixed results. Allowing the Scouts to make up
>their own minds (in our experience) creates a strong patrol where most
>of the boys are into Scouting and a weak patrol (made up of the leftovers).
>Another method of boys choosing one other boy they wanted to be with and
>the Scouters making up the final list. I have realize that good friends
>usually make a good patrol but also realize that mixing allows boys to 
>interact with boys he would not normally choose. You must also contend
>with the boy no one seems to want in their patrol.
>
>If anyone has a sure-fire method of picking good patrols, I would like
>to see it posted.
>
>			Bob Dunne
>			ASM Troop 368
>			Berkeley Hts. NJ
 What we did in my troops is to allow the patrols to pick themselves, 
and if it seemed really unbalanced, to then shift some of the boys 
around, but only as suggestions made in positive manners, like 
suggesting to some of the older boys that one of the other patrols might 
need some help because they were mostly younger boys, or some such 
truthful reason.  This can help foster a sense of yeah we're different
patrols, but still one troop.  Also, it really helps to reinforce the
idea that the boys are the ones running the troop, and the leaders
only make suggestions, not assignments, and usually, make the suggestions
through a JASM or SPL.  
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout class '87
blacklisted
formerly of Troop 28
             Bloomfield, NJ


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 16:06:26 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct6.131650.6380@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>I have appreciated all comments in this thread and feel that I can now
>reconcile with my Lord on this one.  I feel since Scouting has so much to
>offer my son and his fellow cub scouts in every other aspect that I must 
>maintain a tolerance in the area of religious awards.  I can see that the 
>BSA in a very real sense does not promote any particular faith in any of its
>activities.  I appreciate its emphasis on spiritual growth and to really
>study and learn about one's religion.  I must allow my Lord to work
>through this effort and trust that all such religious undertakings will 
>eventually lead to a better understanding of Lord Jesus.  As a Christian, I
>must actively defend my Lord against any and all attacks upon his 
>sovereignty, and to teach those who are ready to hear his message.  But 
>these activities must be conducted entirely outside of any "scout" setting
>so as not to be construed as any teaching or indoctrination of the BSA.
>
>How does that sound, guys?
 It sounds good, so long as you adhere to it.  Good Luck! :)
>
>BTW, I have now been "promoted" to den leader as everyone else has backed
>out!  HELP!!!  We haven't had one den meeting yet.  I am going to Basic
>Leader Training this weekend but will probably want to have at least an
>hour and a half long den meeting before then.  I don't have any activities 
>information yet and would appreciate any ideas for a first bear den meeting 
>activity.  I know some of the boys need to work on their bobcat badge and 
>our den has been selected to perform a song at the next pack meeting.  I am 
>supposed to get the list of boys in my den very soon (I think there are 7 or
>8 boys) and I plan to ask that person a lot of these questions then.  But 
>again, HHEELLPP!!!
 For your first meeting, you probably want to do something fun and 
interesting.  Since they have to perform a song, an idea is to maybe have
them pick a song out and instead of singing it, do it like a music-video, 
and actually perform.  We did this in our pack back in the '70's before
music videos became popular and it went over very well for both participants
and observers.  You could also go on down to a local park or if you have 
large enough yard and do some physical activities, frisbee, etc...
>
>

WWWW
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blackilsted '88

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson)
Subject: Whoops...
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 21:18:56 GMT

Sorry about that last post....

Doncha hate it when you think you're in one newsgroup, but you aren't????

***************************************************************************
* Dennis J. Wilkinson, II                * BITNET:    PNSF01DW@UMASSD     *
* Senior Macintosh Programmer            * Internet:  pnsf01dw@umassd.edu *
* Design/CS Project                      *                                *
* University of Mass. - Dartmouth        * (508)999-8896                  *
***************************************************************************
*    Insert disclaimer whereever -  they *are* MY opinions, after all!!   *
***************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jsgoldma@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeremy Goldman)
Subject: Scouting site
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)
Disclaimer1: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of
Disclaimer2: Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
Disclaimer3: control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 14:40:02 GMT

Is there an address for a Scouting Site?  If so, what is it?

Jeremy Goldman ----> Troop 18
(Just three merit badges and service project to go!)
From: kai@kaijen.ka.sub.org (Kai Jendrian)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Importance of the "SCOUT PROMISE"
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:33:48 GMT
Organization: DPSG KA-Waldstadt


In article <HD5NRB1w164w@glnserv.UUCP> kati@glnserv.UUCP writes:

  > > What I wanna know is: What do you
  > > personally think about the SCOUT LAW and SCOUT PROMISE and how is it
  > > handled in your organization?
  > 
  > Did they replace them with anything? What are they using for guidance?
  > 

Yes they replaced the scout-law by four guiding principles:

1.) To live in hope!   "Leben in Hoffnung"
2.) To live in freedom! "Leben in Freiheit"
3.) To live in truth!  "Leben in Wahrheit"
4.) To live in active solidarity!   "Leben in taetiger Solidaritaet"

I'm not really sure if my translation is good, so I cited the german
text, too.
For myself, and especially for our kids that's too abstract!
I have tried to talk about this guiding principles with my scouts,
but they say that's not their style. To me it seems that this guiding
principles have been written by people who wanted to show how intelectual
they are. Why not keep the SCOUT LAW by B.P. I agree that each generation
has to make an own interpretation of the SCOUT LAW, but it's not good
to abolish it and replace it by some unclear guiding principles.

Gut Pfad. Kai.
---
Kai Jendrian, W-7500 Karlsruhe, Germany, +49-721-685824

"TRY AND LEAVE THIS WORLD A LITTLE BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT ..."   (B.P.)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: sbgreene@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Steven Greene)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:00:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

I hate to pick nits with someone with whom I agree 99% of the time, but
in article <1992Oct6.014742.27216@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu 
(Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>The Constitution doesn't have much to do with it. As interpreted by
>the Supreme Court, it says that public schools can not exclude
>atheists or Zoroastrians. It does not say that the BSA can't exclude
>atheists (and they do) or Zoroastrians (which they don't). In fact the
>Constitutions guarantee of freedom of association means that the
>government must leave the BSA's membership policy alone.

That's hardly a settled point of law.  To my knowledge, the courts have
generally only upheld association rights for members of "strictly" or 
"distinctly" private organizations, which have narrow membership 
requirements.  The ACLU's position is that the BSA is a public 
accommodation, not a distinctly private organization, and it is, in fact, 
pressing a public accommodation case against a BSA chapter in New Jersey.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I hear the distant thunder-hum, Maryland!               Steven Greene
The Old Line Bugle, fife and drum, Maryland!            greene@choice.
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb--                   princeton.edu
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!    (Time to change
Maryland! My Maryland!                           the state song, no?)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:06:16 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Oct5.192622.17152@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>I would be interested in seeing someone defend the BSA's "any religion
>is good" philosophy. It seems untenable to me except for Unitarians
>and Baha'is.

I'll bite.

The BSA's "any religion is good" philosophy is a laudable attempt to
remove the far nastier "my religion is the one true religion, so I'm
better than you and don't have to respect you" attitude fostered by
many churches.

-- 
John Francis                                johnf@apollo.hp.com
Seen passing on the net:  Spotted Owl - the *other* white meat!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: briard@dxcern.cern.ch (\)
Subject: RE: SCOUTING GEAR
Keywords: BELGIUM SHOP
Reply-To: briard@dxcern.cern.ch (\)
Organization: CERN, European Laboratory for Particle Physics, Geneva
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:14:20 GMT


The Belgian French Speaking Catholic Scouts Organization has its own shops
all over the French speaking part of the country. The shops are called
"La Scouterie" and you can find them in the most important cities.
The main shop is located just next to the organization seat in Brussels.
Its address is:

La Scouterie - FSC
21,rue de Dublin - 1090 Bruxelles (Belgium)

There are other shops located in Liege, Namur and other cities I don't remember.

Even if those shops are connected to the French speaking catholic organisation,
members of other associations buy their camping equipment there. You can find
uniforms, camping and hiking stuff, books about scouting skills, music,
 songs,...
You can also find books for leaders about organizing activities for the boys,
finding solutions to coomon problems,...
For badges collectors, it's the place to write to get some belgian ones.

I don't give you this address on commercial purpose, but, as I know, those shops
are the only "Scouting shops" I know in Belgium. Of course, you can find
camping, hiking,... material in all sports shops.

I hope you will find this useful for your list.




Francois Briard

Belgian Technical Student at CERN (European Lab for Particle Physics)
Former Troop Leader


e-mail: briard@dxcoms.cern.ch
From: ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: OA
Date: 5 Oct 1992 17:07:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Jeremy:

	I hope the experience with anti-semitism was an isolated case.
I know in my Lodge (Cuyahoga No. 17), every effort to adapt to the
needs of Jewish members and candidates has been made.  For example,
a few years ago the Ordeal was scheduled for the weekend of Chol-Hamoed
Pesach.  I had some candidates from my troop scheduled for their Ordeals.
The Lodge contacted me, I bought Kosher for Passover food, used new
aluminum foil, paper plates, and plastic silverware, etc.

	Whenever I go out, or others from my troop, Kosher food is
obtained, and I am put on the food staff to prepare it.

	NOW, if only the Ordeals and work sessions weren't on Shabbat.

	Please let me know if you have any more problems.

Paul Wolf, SM
Troop 96, B'nai Jeshurun Congregation
Vigil Honor member - Cuyahoga Lodge 17, WWW
(Manitto Lennowak - Maker of Men)
Greater Cleveland Council
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on Eagle Court of Honor
Summary: More on Eagle Courts of Honor
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:32:45 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ


Things have certainly changed over the years.
During the 60's, when I and my brothers (3) received our Eagles
it was the custom to have the presentation of the Eagle be the climax
of the evening. We always had lower ranks and MB presented. These were
usually in limited number. Actually, at mine and at my request, there was
a presentation of a single Tenderfoot, then the Eagle, thus a
beginning and an end.

Today, most of the troops in my area ([New] Jersey Shore Council),
do a presentation of the Eagle alone. I like both concepts, especially
when a presentation of each rank can be done; many troops review the 
ranks anyway ["I am a Tenderfoot ... I am a Second Class ... etc].
Certainly, if more than 1 Eagle are being presented, care should be taken
not to take anything away from the candidates. And care should be taken
that the ceremony is not too long. I heard of one where 4 were presented and 
it took 4 hours. Much too long. And try as you might, when more than 1 
Scout is getting his Eagle, at least 1 of them is slighted in some way.
Be careful that each Eagle is treated and recognized the same way as every
other one. (ok, I'll get off my high horse.) 

Other "things" that can be added to the ceremony ... 
1) review the scout's history in the troop(s), i.e. leadership positions,
   OA membership, special events (jamborees, high adventure, camp staff)
2) include other family members who are Eagles (brothers, father, uncles, etc)
3) If there is another adult scouter who has had a great influence on the
   Eagle, have that person do the presentation. This is what we did in
   the 60's and what I will be trying to do in my troop. This may be
   someone from District/Council, a previous SM, a camp director, even a
   MB counselor who had a great influence. Any of these would jump at the
   chance to be included. 
4) The idea of gifts is also good. My troop committee also presents the
   new Eagle with a membership in NESA. My father (Eagle Scout, SM) always
   presented the new Eagle with a small gift privately (there are many
   Eagle/NESA gifts available).

What ever you do, be sure to have _many_ conversations with the Eagle(s)
and parents. They may have some ideas, sometimes crazy ones, but they can
be adapted. 

Hope all this helps.

H. Holroyd
Eagle Scout class of '68
SM, Troop 82, Jackson, New Jersey

-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 23:55:44 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: na

In article <1992Oct5.210519.1512@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.190422.5044@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>>
>>I would much prefer to see that the troops character is in the broadest
>>possible terms regardless of how many troops are nearby. 
>
>I agree. The respect and tolerance which is supposed to go along with
>"A scout is reverent" is more than a non-discrimination policy by a
>non-sectarian organization. It is a positive value which is at the
>heart of scouting and should not be omitted by troops on a local
>option basis. I concede that it goes against some people's religious
>beliefs, whether right or wrong.
>
>Bill Mayne

Bravo, Here Here!
But if we are to accept religious beliefs, why are lesbigays excluded because
it goes against the religious beleifs of some?  
when that barrier is eliminated, maybe the BSA will begin to stop
their hypocrisy, although the idea was very helpful to me and
is a laudable one.  I just hope it gets applied more honestly.  
DOminick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 13:27:30 GMT
Summary: Don't worry, YOU don't have any involvement in it any way!

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com>, stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
> Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
> for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
> to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
> Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
> Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
> Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
> position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
> I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
> further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
> how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
> hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!
> 
> 
> Todd Stevens
> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

The summary line about says it all!  The religious emblems and knots are
awarded by the Scout's Religious Organization (i.e., temple, etc.), not by
you, or your pack.  Do you also feel you have a moral dilemma if one of
your Scouts wears a Star of David around his neck?  That should not bother
you any more than someone wearing a cross.

One of the NICE things about scouting in the USA is that it is designed to
foster an acceptance of All religious beliefs, and as a result it should
be hoped that you would not have a problem with one of your Scouts following
HIS (his family's) beliefs.  (Of course there are those that argue this
is not going far enough, but lets not start that again).

Marc Bunz
From: be829@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jon Lyksett)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Date: 6 Oct 1992 20:15:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


"If you don't volunteer, there's no room for your kid"??!!??
Most parents are willing to help when needed, though not *every*
parent needs to be registered.  If you refuse the program to the
boy because the parent doesn't (read can't) volunteer, you lack
the very stuff that we try to teach: CHARACTER!!!
From: ci721@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Charles L. Eichelberger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Help-Troop Software-DOS
Date: 3 Oct 1992 09:30:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Well, I am currently using Troopmaster 2.0 (One of these days I
will get the committee to upgrade to 3.0!)... I have found that
it is a great piece of software and very easy to use. It has
all the infomation that you asked about and more including
attendance traceing, rank tracking, reports such as Court-Of-Honor,
Troop Rosters, Boys not advancing, Merit Badge counsleors, and more.
About the only thing that I find lacking in it right now (and I have
been told that this has been changed from 2.0 to 3.0) is the fact that
it does not really allow you to enter medical records fully. One thing
that I have noticed in the past few years is the fact that a lot of 
emphasis is placed on who your doctor is and the insurance plan that
each boy has. The company that puts it out is called Monarch Software
and you can either E-Mail me for the address/phone or you can look in 
an issue of Scouting where they advertise. They will send you a packet of
all the reports that you can generate and I think that you will be impressed
by its code and the fact that it can add awards, ect.

Charles Eichelberger
Unit Comissioner
Ventura County Council, Ca.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum)
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Reply-To: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Boeing Computer Support Services
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:55:26 GMT

Easy there!
Participation is the key idea--that is what I encouraged.

What I still cannot stomach is the parent that "drops" little Johnny
off for every meeting, and NEVER does anything.  This type won't even
take the time to show up when (and if) the kid earns any awards.  I actually
had one of the "forever absentee" parents give the excuse that the pack meeting
was his "racquetball night" and he couldn't be bothered to show up to be with 
his kid.  (I restrained my Norwegian temper)  I pointed out to this turkey
that the kid was only going to grow up once, and racquetball can be re-scheduled.
I must have looked just short of towering rage, becuse he backed down and 
showed up after that.  Our Pack had a police established that the kid could not
receive an award unless a "responsible adult" was present.  That covered the
problem (in San Diego) of many single-parent situations.  It was not unusual
for Grandparents to bring the kids and participate--we did make exceptions--
but very quietly, for the boy's sake.

An Important point here--The whole program is based on what is good for the
boys--if you lose track of that, we are in the wrong business!

Keep pushing for as much help as you can get, and don't be afraid to try a
lot of different ploys--people respond to different things.

--rich
---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinions are my own, and my employer (Boeing Computer Support Services)
 denies any responsibility for me, all opinions in general, and anything 
 I may say, do, or be otherwise associated with outside of work for them.
 -- Use at your own risk, your mileage may vary, no news is good news."

 E-MAIL REPLY TO:  rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov     PLEASE KEEP IT "G" RATED
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:32:16 GMT

anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:

[...]
> And respecting a religion does not mean believing in it.  It means 
>accepting that they are equally valid and neither is better or worse
>than another.
[...]

Is it official BSA policy that Scouts accept that no religion is
better or worse than another? If so, then most people of faith can't
be Scouts since most people of faith believe that their religion is
better than others.

As far as I can tell, this is not BSA policy. BSA policy seems to be
    1) any religious belief is good
    2) to have no religious belief is bad, that's why nonbelivers are
       excluded from Scouts
    3) except for things such as BSA membership, all religious belief
       or lack of belief should be tolerated

But, how can all religious beliefs be good when many (most?) religions
teach that some other religious belief is bad?

And if it is OK to exclude a non believer from Scouts, how about from
a Country Club? how about from a job? how about from a public school?

- Carl







--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign