HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: madhavn@madhavn.mentorg.com (Madhav Nerurkar)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:04:48 GMT
Organization: mentor
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


I am a layman who uses modern medicine but is curious about alternatives,
e.g. homeopathy. Any discussion about alternative health, either here on
this newgroup or elsewhere quickly centers around validity of the
alternative methods. So here is what I want to ask:

Is there a simple decisive test in modern medicine that will determine if
a given alternative theory has some merits ?

There can be significant lag, even of lifetimes, between empirical 
observations and an understanding of the underlying mechanisms. Without a
test won't we either run the risk of passing up on real opprtunities or
run the risk of taken in by a scam.

If in fact such a test exists, is it applied to inventions in modern
medicines or is it basically the prestige of the institutions that decides
the outcome ? 


Thanks,

Madhav Nerurkar


Disclaimer: These are my opinions.
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Asthma, adult onset
Date: 22 Dec 1992 00:49:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

Strange timing that a newsgroup like this would spring up....

I've been working with a few different alternative health professionals
since 2 years ago when my asthma made a surprise appearance for the
first time since childhood. At first I hoped it would go away with the
allergy season, but after two asthma attacks, one which landed me in 
San Jose Emergency room for the night and kept me on prednisone for 2 weeks,
I realized that I had the dreaded 'adult-onset' asthma. This, for anyone
not in the current informational flow about asthma, statistically is
very likely to stay with you for the rest of your life. Childhood asthma
often disappears.

I've been working with an alternative MD (nutrition and suppliments) as well
as an OMD (accupuncture and herbs) for about 1 and 1/2 years now. My asthma
has been at a manageble level for the last year and I have been off all systemic
medications for that long. I do abuse my Albuterol inhaler quite a lot however.

My latest journey has been with a Naturopathic Doctor, not recognized as an
MD in California. We have been working with homeopathy for the last two
months, using the Nux Vomica remedy.

Up to about 5 days ago we (myself and Dr. Rapp) were considering abandoning
the first remedy and trying another due to lack of response. However Saturday,
I used my inhaler 1 time in the morning (1 puff is half a dose) and another
single puff in the evening.

Yesterday I didn't use it until 3 hours after waking (I ALWAYS use it about 5 to
10 minutes after waking) and then only because I excercised at the gym. Today,
again I've only had one puff just before lunch. This all followed a severe 
respiratory infection I've been fighting the last 2 weeks. Not that the infection
is clearing, my asthma appears to be lifting, for the first time in 2 years.

All of this is during the winter months that usually sends me into the ER
with an attack. Cold weather is bad news for me.

In short, it appears that I may be able to be asthma free, as opposed to being
stuck with it for the rest of my life. Considering that Western medicine claims
that asthma is incurable and can only be managed, I pretty happy with the 
results of the last 3 days.

In 2 years of this asthma, the only time I've used my inhaler so little was when
I was taking prednisone.

Greg
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: 23 Dec 1992 23:47:32 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


Richard,

I've read enough about homeopathy, and have spoken to enough people
to warrent trying it out for myself. I didn't risk my life in any way,
shape or form, nor did I risk any significant amount of money.

Second, I find the thought of my asthma just 'disappearing' specifically
during a cold and wet spell which has seriously aggravated my asthma in
the past as well as usually bringing on a bad chest cold, more fantastic
than the idea that a homeopathic rememdy would lead to my body correcting
whatever was wrong that brought back my asthma.

This kind of actual experience may be worthless to you or others, but it
is the most important evidence I could have.

Third, sticking your finger in a light socket is not an accurate analogy
for trying out an alternative treatment, I understand your skepticism though.

It appears that you and others who seem so opposed to homeopathy on this
news group believe that modern science and medicine has all the answers
already, and that anything not currently fitting into a current scientific
explanation should be carelessly disgarded. 

It may be because of my lack of education (I'm just now finishing my AA)
and the fact that I've only completed introductory chemistry and an intro
to pharmacology, but the principles behind homeopathy just didn't seem that
wild to me, at least not wild enough to warrant not trying it. This was also
reinforced by the historical success homeopathy bosts. Of course, that could
all be lies I suppose.

I have a goal which is to go from being an adult-onset asthmatic to a NON-
adult-onset asthmatic. Allopathic medicine just doesn't have much to offer
in terms of a cure for asthma. Please understand that during hiking and
backpacking trips I will still continue to carry my emergency meds, I'm
not stupid.

I just can't imagine not trying something because it doesn't fit into
a person's *current* view of the world.

Greg
From: dips@cad.gatech.edu (Deeptendu Majumder)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Depression
Date: 24 Dec 1992 20:17:48 -0500
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, CAE/CAD Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: cae.cad.gatech.edu

Does anybody have any opinion about dealing with depression
in ways other than Prozac.

thanks
d.
-- 
Deeptendu Majumder
30963 Georgia Tech Station
Atlanta, GA 30332.
From: bochner@das.harvard.edu (Harry Bochner)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:53:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Dec23.225358.10256
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Dec23.193956.24482@dgbt.doc.ca>,
ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
|> I think there SHOULD be aggressive
|> scrutiny on health topics.  Please let us not have listings of
|> anecdotal experiences.

The charter for this group specifies "general non-technical discussion".
My understanding is that this includes anecdotal experiences.
I, for one, am interested in hearing them.

It is, of course, important to distinguish anecdotes from solid evidence.
But as long as the person who posts the anecdote doesn't try to disguise
it as something it isn't, I don't see any problem.

|> Some of us are trying to learn something about
|> their health problems and aren't interested in anything that is not
|> reasonably researched.

The charter explicitly includes "therapies which are ... not commonly accepted by
Western scientific medicine". If conclusive research for these therapies were
available, they _would_ be commonly accepted. (At least, I hope so ;-)

There are other forums, such as sci.med, available for therapies that have
been thoroughly researched. The purpose of this group, as I understand it,
is to provide a forum where information about personal experiences can be
exchanged. That includes anecdotal evidence.

Notice that this group is not in the sci (science) hierarchy.
I don't think a demand for rigorous scientific method is consistent with
the goals of the group.

-- 
Harry Bochner
bochner@das.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Welcome to misc.health.alternative! (periodic posting)
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:59:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.224009.7254@netcom.com>, kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski) writes:
|> Hello, and thanks for joining us!
|> 
|> CHARTER
|> -------
|> 
|> misc.health.alternative is a newsgroup for general non-technical
|> discussion (pro *and* con) 
[...]
|> Flames, name-calling, and abusive behavior in general (from either
|> side) 

This seems to imply two-sided, adversary discussions.  One hopes,
of course, that many views might be exchanged without having to
be pro*or*con, and without haveing to stand on "either side".
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: phoffman@orac.holonet.net (Paul E. Hoffman)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access BBS: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:04:50 GMT

>Sorry to be so cranky about this, but we should not tolerate loose talk and
>careless thinking when peoples' health and lives are at stake. 

Why the hell not? Are you saying that every time (or even most of the time
that I go to an AMA doctor all I'm getting is "tight" talk and careful
thinking? What hallucinogens are you on? The ideas that have sprung up in
the last 100 years about how to cure diseases are as much a fad as those
that have sprung up in the last 50.

>Some naif might
>mistake some of what passes here for actual wisdom.

They sure might. Or they might see it as helpful. Or as stupid. Or as
harmful. Why do you assume that your view of how to treat someone elses'
health is any more valid than theirs? Because you are "wiser"?

>>Paul Hoffman
-- 
||  Why quote someone else?  ||
From: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet (Clover M.)
Subject: Alternative health care for cats
Reply-To: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 05:16:24 GMT

I am asking this on the behalf of some friends of mine, so please don't
flame me regarding neglecting my companion animals.
 
Does anyone know of any alternative route of curing worms in cats
other than the standard drugs given at the vet?  My friends can't
afford to go to the vet right now, and one of their cats escaped
for a few days when they were robbed and brought home worms.
 
Any information would be appreciated, either via email or by posting.
 
Thanks in advance,
Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
This is my very first sig.file

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Bates method (natural vision improvement)
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<1992Dec23.233444.28309@dgbt.doc.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:13:26 GMT

Thanks for the posting. This is the kind of thing I would like to see
more of on this group. Either actual experience of improvement with
some alternative treatment or clinical results. Let's see more facts
and fewer abstract statements like "alternative medicine is all
fraudulant" or "Western medicine is a conspiracy to make sick people
sicker". 
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: Life Extension - query
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:25:04 GMT

In <1993Jan3.230442.16270@Csli.Stanford.EDU> pedwards@csli.stanford.edu (Paul N Edwards) writes:

>What has become of Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw, authors of _Life
>Extension_? Are they still on their mega-vitamin/mineral/drug/nutrient
>diet? Are they aging? Are they dead?

What about Paul C. Bragg?  Anyone know what happened to him?  I read
"The Miracle of Fasting" and it is truly hilarious.  I am assuming that
he has passed on and I was wondering if anyone knows how old he was?

rm



-- 
Roger Maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Bates method
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:38:32 GMT

In article <1hami4INNpbj@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> shreeved@ece.orst.edu (David Shreeve) writes:
>ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) wrote:
>
>
>>This Bates thing has been around for 50 years that I know about, and
>>probably a lot longer than that.  Surely, if there was something to
>>it, there should be lots of evidence by now.  If not, why not?
>
I have no knowledge of the Bates method but I would like to point
out that our ability to test a theory is limited by our technology
and our creative perceptions.  There is no reason why proof should
exist for a theory that is old.  While its reasonable to ask for
that proof, its absence doesn't disprove anything.
-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: phoffman@orac.holonet.net (Paul E. Hoffman)
Subject: Re: History of Acupuncture (was Re: TCM)
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access BBS: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:15:09 GMT

>The Chinese herbal formulas in pill form that you can find in health
>food stores and other places are illegally marketed and dangerous.

I believe you may be overstating your point here. I do not believe that
it is illegal to sell traditional Chinese remedies in this country, only
to prescribe them without a license. Further, to say that all of them
are "dangerous" is silly. They are no more dangerous than other over-the-
counter drugs. That is, some can kill you if you have counterindicated
symptoms, some can help you get better, and many will do nothing if you
don't follow the directions of someone with experience.

>The FDA has found high levels
>of Valium, Librium, anti inflamitories and other drugs in these pills.

In all of them? Really? I'd love to see some references on this. There
is an FDA database online, so if you give even a date, I can do the
search for this.

>Y'all enjoy those quaint chinese remedies now...

Your snide attitude about what is "true" and not probably will win you
as many converts here. Come off the high horse, or post somewhere else, OK?

To convince me, I'd really like some of your FDA references.

>>Paul Hoffman
-- 
||  Why quote someone else?  ||
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: gordon@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
Subject: Re: Chiropractic advice
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:30:19 GMT

mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:

>In a previous article, thagerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu" wrote:
>> 
>>Since I started spending much of my workday at a desk and/or a pc, I've noticed
>>an increase in neck, shoulder and upper back pain.  I've tried stretching 
>>exercises at work and they do provide some short-term relief...but I still ache
>>at the end of the day.
>> 
>>I am considering chiropractic care. A co-worker gave me a gift certificate for 
>>a visit to her doctor, so there won't be any cash at stake for the first visit.

>Chiropractic care is find if you have a real physical problem.  However, it
>may be that you simply do not have the proper position for sitting/using a pc.
>
>  {stuff omitted}

>Mark London
>MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU


I had a similar problem with my first real, full time computer job, after 
leaving an academic position.  My back on the right side including my shoulder
became almost paralysed.  What I did to correct this was quit.  The day after I
left, the pain and stiffness disappeared!

I`m not advocating this as a treatment, but it does raise an issue that diffi-
cult to deal with delicately.  What my example points at is the psychological
component of health/illness.  Dealing with just the symptoms and not the mean-
ing of the symptoms is asking for trouble.  Please refer to Larry Dossey's new
book, "Meaning and Medicine".  Please note that I'm NOT saying that symptoms
shouldn't be dealt with.  That`s like saying to a person with a broken leg,
don't get it fixed, or don't use crutches.  But as Dr. Dossey points out, 
behind many, many illnesses lie messages that are not adequately dealt with by
most practitioners.  Eliminating the symptoms, does not get rid of the under-
lying issues that make us susceptible to the factors that cause disease/illness.


-- 
Allen Gordon 		         *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate         	 *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gordon@tramp.colorado.edu   	 *toads, each would be more intelligent than  *
				 *Aristotle				      *
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Acidophilus & Cascara for Antidepressant GI Side Effects?
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 09:21:15 EST


Anyone have any experience using acidophilus or cascara sagrada for the
management of gastroinestinal side effects of antidepressant
medications?  Can anyone point me in the direction of information
concerning long term GI or other effects of these agents?

Two people with bowell problems related to antidepressant medication
related the following to me recently:

	- a 23 year old woman successfully treated for obsessive 
	compulsive disorder with clomipramine (Anafranil) 300 mg/d
	had severe constipation which did not improve with metamucil
	and dietary management.  Her bowells have been working normally
	while taking cascara sagrada 1 tsp daily while continuing
	Anafranil 300 mg/d; obsessive symptoms have remained in 
	good control.

	- a 44 year old woman with a history of severe irritable bowell
	syndrome was successfully treated for depression with
	sertraline (Zoloft) 100 mg/d.  She had very annoying lower GI
	side effects of Zoloft including most embarassing flatulence
	(gas), as well as cramping and loose stools.  Acidophilus (1
	capsule BID) seems to have been very helpful for control of
	lower GI side effects of Zoloft.

I would be pleased to hear from people who have used cascara or
acidophilus with antidepressant medications, sucessfully or not. 

================================================================= 
mark kline                              mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu
suny health science center, syracuse    voice: (315) 422-1050
================ courtesy of syracuse university ================
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Depression
Date: 27 Dec 1992 09:07:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



My experience with temporary periods of depression  has been
involved with trying a number of combinations of vitamins
and minerals.
I have done this over perhaps ten years, originally prompted
by readings in orthomolecular medicine, especially Hoffer,
Pauling, et al.

I cannot recommend a specific formula since I believe the
body likes variety and higher doses of vitamins can be
risky, etc.  Also my diet has been for a long time, solid
amount of low fat protein including lots of fish, occasional
liver or small amts of red meat (some claim that true
B12 can only be effective through red meat such as rare
to medium beef roast, etc....this is open to debate).
Heavy on the vegetables at all times. Moderate fruit and
many researchers agree that sugar is a big culprit in
depression which family can also include some carbohydrates
and of course alcohol.  Caffeine as depression cycles
for some.

Back to the vitamins.  The most important ones IMHO for
depression are the B complex.  Niacin plus C was heavily
touted for a while by the orthomolecular crowd but
more recently niacin is linked to possible liver and
heart damage (only in large amounts, don't cut it out
completely...you'll get rickets or whatever it is
called).  My personal favorite is the rice bran based
Schiff b complex, not very strong but I take two or
three during the day.
I also think the concept of depression is extremely
complex and many lifestyle factors are involved that
have nothing to do with body chemistry (and everything
to do with relationships and fulfillment?).

-- 
Capt. Kirk: let's head for that planet, third from the sun, it
            looks promising.... |-)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:07:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.195642.6058@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.182340.23710@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>
>>The
>>exact operation of the immune system is still not known, so
>>alternative methods cannot be discounted.  The theory behind
>>Avogadro's number may challenge the part of homeopathy that involves
>>the microdose, but it does not disprove it.  
>
>A double blind trial would however. And since it would require completely
>new physical laws to work I'd be hesitant to trust my life to homeopathy.

Keep in mind that the most popular uses for homeopathy are where
allopathy has nothing to offer, such as chronic conditions and
viruses.  There is nothing to lose in tryinh it in these cases.
>
>>Note also that the
>>microdose is not central to homeopathy.  It was a later addition
>>that was found to increase its effectiveness.  The Law of Similars
>>is the foundation of homeopathy.
>
>If it where not for the microdose stuff I think people would consider it
>much more seriously. I suspect some non microdose homeopathic treatments
>would work, however not all systems in the body are going to respond in 
>the same way. 
>A small amount of dead bacteria can protect you from disease, however a
>small amount of lead will not protect you from lead poisoning.

All homeopathic remedies are available in dilutions which don't
cross the Avogadro threshold.
>
>-- 
>------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
>\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
> \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
>  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .


-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative