From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: What would I do if wollian/perlmanian were not genocide apologists?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 19:27:35 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1iofppINN4ur@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

>>>In a flash of hot air he was gone.
>>
>>Your criminal handlers at the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle will 
>>give you looks of respect. You will be escorted "hela" in quiet triumph.
>>But more than that. From this time forward, you may ignore your brain 
>>cells, gutters and downspouts.

>Uh, yeah, whatever.

There's your problem right there. Somebody stole your brain.
The following is a partial list of the references on the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people (in English).

 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.

>>>Serdar argic aka Hassan Mutlu, was
>>>executed today by exceedingly slow
>>>and painful torture by the prime
>>>ministers of Greece and Armenia, as
>>>well as Eric Perlman and Ilan Woll

>>There are times when the simplest of events call all of one's
>>existential motives into question. What would I do if you and
>>"perlmanian" were not x-Soviet "wieneramus"? What would I do
>>if you were blind. What would I do you if you crooks were not
>>genocide apologists and historical revisionists?

>Play with yourself as always.

In fact, there's a whole lot of things genocide apologists and historical
revisionists don't understand about entirely - some large, some small.

>>Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
>>        "Document No: 15," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 113, Drawer 
>>        No: 3, File No: 520, Section No: 2024, Contents No: 11-1; 11-3.
>>        (19 Feb 330 '4 March 1915', District Governor Kemal)
>>
>>"List of male inhabitants of Mergehu Village murdered or annihilated 
>> with the utmost savagery by local Armenians who joined Armenian gangs
>> strengthening the Russian Forces:

>Look, for just one second I'll be serious, if this really happened, I'm
>upset it happened, but frankly, I think you made up the source and
>info.

No wonder this clown is in such a mess. You want jumper cables?
Sure I can hook you up to libraries and national archives. Or
wire you into Almighty G*d.

Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.

"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
 as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
 of the Tartar population." 

Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.

  This three-day massacre is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and 
  20,000 Turks, old people, women and children lost their lives.

Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).

"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
 armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
 people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
 been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
 hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
 beaten and killed in the mountains..."

Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant,"
vol. 1, p. 122.

 "They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
  measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
  retreat from Marash."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, Ankara, 1979, pg. 234.
     
"They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial 
 hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the
 Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party,
 mortal enemies of Turkey."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The Russians, who have had considerable relations with the Armenians
 hold a somewhat different opinion about the Armenians. The Armenians
 are in fact a despicable community, without any significant value.
 These people can only continue their survival by exploiting others.
 Moreover, the Russian peasants have their own opinions about the
 Armenians.

 I have frequently heard it said among Russian soldiers that the
 Armenians are as rough as bears...Among the Russian troops, the
 Armenians had always been considered as inferior. Those people
 prefer to do anything rather than go to the front to fight. The
 attempts at desertion among the Armenians and self-inflicted wounds
 to avoid going to the war have justified this opinion.

 The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers.

 The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
 nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
 be undone."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)