From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: What's your SIQ?
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:08:27 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <iF9sTB2w165w@kalki33>, kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:
=farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
=
==What he's talking about is that no one can hear your message, because
==the presentation is much too loud.
=
=You evidently heard it, and "he" heard it. So your statement is
=incorrect.
=
Perhaps we understand different things by hearing. I mean hearing with
an open mind. 

== ==<What "tarnished vision that most people already carry about ISKCON"?  
== ==That you have given up independent use of your intellect and 
==responsibility for your actions, allowing someone else to think and 
==decide for you, and that you have become zealous zombies.  
= =What is the evidence that this is how most people perceive ISKCON?
= 

Well, maybe I hang out with an especially ignorant and biased group,
but many people I talk to, if the subject of ISKCON comes up, react
this way. And I have no specific references, but most written material
I have seen, that hasn't taken any time to examine your group,
dismisses it as a cult, and bemoans the loss of youth to ISKCON much
the way the do the loss of a youth to drug addiction. Now I don't
consider this to be the case, but your postings do little to dispel
this image.

=We take it that you, unlike us, have an independent intellect,
=are responsible for your actions, and are not influenced by anyone
else.

An independent intellect does not mean an uninfluenced intellect. It
means a willingness to consider ALL available evidence, and a
willingness to take responsibility for your thoughts. You are
responsible for your actions, whether or not you choose to accept
responsibility. Therein lies the tragedy of allowing others to make
your decisions for you.

=So that your response to our posts was not in any way motivated by the
=posts themselves, but was an entirely spontaneous outburst which
=coincidentally seems to be a response to us. In other words, you are not
=controlled by anything?

Controlled, no. At least not by your post. I did freely choose to
respond to it, however.

==
==<What "fantasy pundit world"?
==
==In which you claim to know everything better than anyone else, and
==have completely closed your mind to any real interactions with people.
==In which you have such spiritual arrogance as to claim you have
==nothing to learn from anyone else.
=
=What is the evidence that we claim to know more than anyone else?
=(Although certainly we know more than you).

Nice how you can contradict yourself within two lines of text.

=Vague accusations of "spiritual arrogance" do not tell us anything. They
=could easily be prompted by simple envy.
=
Oh, yes, I am terribly envious, I don't think I would ever have the
guts to present myself the way you do. :-)

==
==<Is something wrong with "outright proselytization"?
==
==Not if all you want to do is irritate and alienate people. Not if you
==want to drive anyone potentially interested in your practice as far
==away as possible.
==
=
=So the only result of outright proselytization is the irritation and
=alienation of others? Then you are irritated and alienated? And you are
=seeking to get as far away as possible? Why, then do you respond to us?
=This is not the act of a person who is seeking to get away.
=
Yes, this is the main result of outright proselytizing. Especially in
a group devoted to OPEN inquiry, as Mr. Moscowitz has pointed out. 
As I have said before, the reason I respond is that I feel there is an
invaluable message in the BG and the Vedas, and I would not like to
see a spiritual seeker biased against such wisdom by such a dogmatic
blitzkrieg. 
==<       -------------------------------------------------------
==<      |  Don't forget to chant:   Om Mane Padme Hum           |
==<      |                           Om Mane Padme Hum           |
==<      |                                                       |
==<       -------------------------------------------------------
==
=
=Do you know what "Om mane padme hum" means?

Behold, the Jewel in the Lotus, literally. Figuratively, behold the
wisdom of understanding contained within the Lotus sutra, or, also,
behold the immutable and precious wisdom contained within our own
minds. 
=
=
=       -----------------------------------------------------------
=      |  Don't forget to chant:   Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll |
=      |                           Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll |
=      |                           Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll |
=      |                           Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll |
=      |                                                           |
=      |   Kalki's Dogmaline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA        |
=      |        (kalki33!kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us)                |
=       ----------------------------------------------------------
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************