From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 7 Sep 92 03:01:01 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <matthew.714799780@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Matthew Zalbiciewski) writes:
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>In article <1992Aug25.171215.13718@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu
>>(Josip Loncaric) writes:

>>>In article <66791@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU
>>>(BERNSTEIN,AVRON P) writes:

>>>>....  What many people
>>>>seem to either ignore or be simply ignorant about is just how many 
Poles were
>>>>exterminated by the Nazis as well.  

>>>This threat had eventually caused an enormous death toll among Poles,
>>>which simply cannot be ignored in any historical analysis.

>>What I find most amazing about this sort of Polish apologetic is that
>>it makes the Poles look worse than had they just admited that the Jews
>>were the Nazis' target.  By saying Poles were the intended victim, they
>>portray themselves as evil+stupid because of their collaboration in the
>>Nazi's antisemitism while they themselves were allegedly getting
>>victimized. In an ironic sort of way, it makes their victimization
>>appear as a divine punishment.

>>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com

>I do not know if the Nazis only had one target (implied by S.Saal's
>"the Jews were the Nazis' target"). What about the Gypsies? Were
>they not a target, or are Gypsies Jews?
>MZ

 I am posting a follow up on this a little late, but for some
reason some of the messages arrive to my site several days after
the original posting.

 Sorry, Sam, but I think you got carried away a little. 
I don't remember anyone here on the net claiming that
Poles were the intended victim of the Nazis. What people
do say is that Poles were also victims of the Nazis.
Approximately 6 million Polish citizens were killed in the war,
of whom nearly 3 million were Polish Jews; about 640 000
Poles were killed in combat.  
 During the Holocaust at least 5 800 000 Jews were murdered
by the end of 1944 out of European Jewry of 8 700 000
under German occupation. Different sources may give somewhat
different numbers.

 Jews suffered the worst of all horrors. They were targeted
by the Nazis for systematic extermination. The German government
adopted the policy of total physical extermination of Jews
following the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942. During
that conference leaders of the German government's hierarchy -
leaders of the SS, the Nazi Party, the Justice Ministry,
industry and transport, the state apparatus and Hitler's 
henchmen ruling in the enslaved territories all met
and discussed the ways and means, technology and logistics
to commit the genocide of the Jews. 
 On that meeting the program of the Final Solution was discussed
and adopted. The Kristallnacht happened few years earlier
and the Jews were persecuted by the Nazis already for several years
but the worst horror happened after that conference.

 I recommend seeing the film "The Wannsee Conference" which
was based on a thorough research and on the original secretary's
notes. Dr. Schlomo Aronson of the University of Jerusalem
served as historical advisor during the making of this German
film. The film is distributed with English subtitles as 
a VHS video by @198 Prism Corp. 1888 Century Park East,
Suite 1000, Los Angeles, CA 90067.

 The Nazis had several objectives they wanted to realize
through the war. Claims of the sort "we were
the only victims of the WW II" are bound to create reaction
to the contrary, regardless who is making them. Is there
someone out there who has a monopoly on suffering?

 Having said that I repeat that the horror of the systematic
extermination of Jews is unparalelled and unspeakable.

 Now on the subject of antisemitism in Poland. Mainly right-wingers,
ultra-nationalists and such were anti-Semitic but they did
not become a dominant force. Still, they did a lot of damage
to the Polish-Jewish relations. I am sure it will not be difficult
to find sources, for anyone who wants to read about it, with  
detailed description of what the anti-Semitic propagandists
said and what harm they have done to the Jews. 

 However, claims of a Polish-German collaboration for the extermination
of Jews are ridiculous and a serious offence. Let us know the names
of the Polish war criminals and organizations participating in 
the genocide if you make that claim. Actions of certain
individuals who chose to cooperate with Nazi Germans by e.g. telling
them were to find hiding Jews are crimes, no less. But the extent
of such collaboration was marginal. I don't know any statistics 
on that and if they are available. Crime is a crime, but when
you make those accusations big, against the whole nation, at least
your support for the word "Polish camps" suggests such an accusation,
be prepared to back it up with more than your own word. I already wrote 
in one of my postings that calling the German Nazi camps "the Polish camps" 
is just as adequate as calling the German Wehrmacht "the Russian Army" when 
the German forces were present on the territory of the Soviet
Union.

 For a bit of statistics: German gas Zyklon-B was first tested
in a provisional building in September 1941 in Auschwitz which
since June 14, 1940 was used as a new conentration camp for the Poles.
The first victims of gassing with Zyklon-B were 600 Soviet prisoners
of war and 250 Polish political prisoners sick with tuberculosis.
On May 12, 1942 the first transport of 1500 Jews was sent directly
from the railway ramp to the gas chamber. The victims were brought
from Sosnowiec. On June 30, 1942 the second temporary gas chamber
was put in operation. On March 22-23, 1943 large scale gas chambers
and crematories were finished in Auschwitz-Birkenau and on June 28, 1943
the German director in Auschwitz reported to the Economic and 
Administrative Ofice in Berlin that the four new big gas chambers
and crematories were exterminating and cremating 4756 people daily.
By November 29, 1944 when Himmler gave order to destroy the industrial
installations of huge gas chambers and crematories about 2 500 000
people were gassed in Auschwitz. 90 % of them were Jews. 
In addition 404 000 people were registered in Auschwitz - of them
340 000, mostly Poles, died there.

 Since I already wrote here quite a bit, let me stop. 
  
 Lech Borkowski
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish