From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Madeleine Murray O'Hare
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:36:44 GMT

scruggs@zeus.franklin.edu (Kevin Scruggs) writes:
>In article <root.726502852@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>Hardly.  If the feds supply some of the funding of the local PBS station,
>>and some portion of that money is used to broadcast a religious program
>>(lets say it's educational, for sake of argument) that is hardly
>>'establishment' of religion.  And by the way, if 'subsidizing' religion
>>were unconstitutional, then churches wouldn't be tax exempt, now would
>>they?
>I disagree with churches being tax exempt as well...
'The power to tax is the power to destroy.'  In another post, I said I have
no problem with them paying user fees for fire protection, etc.  I believe
income tax and proerpty taxes present larger problems.

>>The establishment clause is meant to protect religious liberty by
>>disallowing the establishment of a national religion.  Nothing more.
>>The Supreme Court is dead wrong, cf the founders comments on the purposes
>>of the BofR.
>>>	 This point is still under contention. Personally, I find it rather
>>>silly that religious groups feel the need to congregate in public buildings/
>>>schools when plenty of churchs/temples/mosques infest the landscape...
>>
>>A non-denominational bible study?  A group of kids who want to meet to talk
>>about religion?  Why should they be banned from school property when any
>>other group may meet?  That is plain and pure discrimination.

>Oh please, we both know we aren't talking about metaphysical debating
>societies here. (wouldnt be opposed to those tho...) We are talking about 
>cells of a religion. A micro congregation if you will... Something that 
>definitely doesnt need to be subsidized on government property.

Never heard of non-denominational bible studies?  They tend to be open to
discussing many aspects of biblical interpretation.  I've taken part in
them, and participants have been from all stripes...

>>I see a lot on PBS that I don't agree with.  So what?  I just look at is
>>diversity.  IF PBS wants to run a program that reflects favorably on
>>wiccans, so what?  It's a free country...
>>
>I think the point in contention was religious ceremonies, not just
>ducumentaries...
Big deal...want to broadcast a wiccan ceremony?  Go ahead.  Heck, I'd
welcome the chance to learn more about it...

>>You make the assumption that I don't support true equal access.  You are
>>wrong.  I really don't care who or what is on TV, so long as NOONE is
>>restricted.  You want equal access for everyone EXCEPT Christians.  Nice
>>double standard you have there.

>	I am the one who uses the term 'religious group' you're the one stuck 
>sectarian terms such as bible study. You can't even think in any other terms.
If Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc, etc, want to meet, that's just fine.  I use
the 'bible study' since that's the think that seems to draw the ire of
so-called 'freedom groups', like the ACLU.

>You remind me of a USMC Ssgt that thought atheist was some sort of protestant
>denomination when I told him why I refused to be herded off to church 
>services.....
Can't skip the attempted insults, eh?  Sorry, but just because a USMC Staff
Sgt. didn't know what an atheist is, has no implications of what I know or
do.

Read more of my stuff.  I hardly want to push my religion on anyone...

>	It just so happens that xianity happens to be the most obnoxious
>and widespread religion in these parts... 
Guilt by association...because someone is Christian they are automatically
suspect?

>oh, btw, I saw how quickly you started twisting my statements. Are you a 
>creationist too???...
Depends what you mean by that.  Do I agree with ICR that the earth is only
6000 years old?  No way.  I suspect that science is near enough with the
estimate of a 4.5 billion year old earth.  Not that that denies divine 
creation in any way.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc