HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sunny@me.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo)
Subject:  Re: male circumcision (was Re: Female C
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:24:06 GMT


>In the US the exclusive right of the parents to make decisions for the
>child is being challenged in the courts where parents who inflict
>themselves on the children may have this privilege removed.  State
>authority may intervene in the case of child abuse or sexual
>molestation, or even where requested by the child.  recently a young
>teenage boy succesfully divorced his parents.  the unchallenged
>hegemony of parents over helpless children is being challenged.
>though some Africans feel this is not an appropriate subject to discuss,
>a matter too private or too African to allow others to observe,
>history will cause this view to fall.  as more and more people
>learn to read and have access to viewpoints outside their household,
>children will challenge the authority of their parents to
>damage them.
>
>Is this a good thing or bad? what do you think?
>
>Jim

The only problem Jim is that this is NOT really a good forum to discuss
this issue with any meaningful insight.  A lot of people in this forum 
are too Western and too brain-washed (this author included) to discuss
issues of African culture without the Western biases.

One fact is that many old African civilizations solved many issues
of human society that no modern (read Western) society has approximated.
Unfortunately, Western thoughts have been forced on Africans and now 
many African Countries(???) are beginning to suffer the same ailments 
as the West and more.  From my observations (current as well as growing
up), the issue of family structure is one that I give many African
Societies A+.  The issues of child abuse or any other kind of abuse
cannot be looked at in isolation; it is tied very much to what is
going on with the person doing the abuse.  Unfortunately when the human
needs are not met something may go awry; and many African families may`
be going awry.

The African family is one of the most complex things anyone would want
to talk about.  Circumcision has existed as part of a complex societal
structure for centuries.  To imply that it existed to abuse children is
to cheapen the discussion of child abuse.  To have a meaningful discussion,
you need to study African cultures in more depth that is readily available
in print.  A few examples of books that will help you see how the western
minds tend to jump to conclusions about African are "Things Fall Apart,"
and "No Longer At Ease" by Chinua Achebe.  I highly recommend them if 
anyone haven't read them yet.

We should try NOT to impose Western problems on Africans. 

-Sunny
From: chris@psg.com (Chris Pinkham)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Gay Africans?
Date: 5 Nov 92 06:42:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: psg.1992Nov5.064219.26880
Organization: Pacific Systems Group, Portland Oregon, US

> Who are you to decide anything? You are no more entitled to opine on 
> anything than I am to decide on homosexuality.

Serious question (honest): Are there no African homosexuals?

Less serious question: If there are, is this due solely to the
evil efforts of the British Empire, in their attempt to prevent
Africans from procreating?
From: ltt75326@acuvax.acu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Gay Africans?
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:51:27 GMT
Organization: Abilene Christian University

In article <Nov.5.22.26.19.1992.5693@occlusal.rutgers.edu>, shemlon@occlusal.rutgers.edu (Shiyghan Shemlon) writes:
 
> My conclusion is that despite recent attempts by militant gay groups
> to convince the public of the contrary, homosexuality may not be
> natural. I believe it is a consequence metropolitant development and
> its resulting complexities and influences on human behavior.
> Homosexuality goes against the natural reproductive instinct of any  
> animal with the survivalist tendency like man.

I wholeheartedly agree that homosexuality goes against the reproductive 
instinct, but as that instinct is not the only motivation for 
heterosexual intercourse I don't think it would be the only motivation
for homosexual intercourse eigher.

> 
> So, if you want any gay Africans look for them in big African cities
> or in the metropolitan centers of western civilisation. You will never
> find them in any primitive African society or any primitive soceity
> anywhere in the world for that matter. The word "homosexual" does not
> even exist in the vocabularies of these people.

Living on the coast of Kenya I saw as well as heard of the homosexual
community there on the coast. Though I can see the arguement that the 
Arabs could have influenced the creation of this community I never 
heard an African give that excuse. In fact, though a word for 
"homosexual" may not exist in a language, the people of Africa are 
hardly naive enough to have no idea of what homosexuality is. The people
of the Giryama on the coast of Kenya know of and do not condone it.
I am speaking here from a limited experience overseas, but also as a 
student of Africa cultures ( and I do mean cultureS, with a capital "S").
Hey, this is what I've seen. 

sincerely, kale vidzo.
L.T.
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: An interview with Pierre Marais
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:53:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: ns1.Bx95KL.C27
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


  SECOND INSTALLMENT 

...in the interview with Pierre Marais, manager of the Sanet Cafe, we left 
off at

Pierre Marais:  I can't say "leave Africa alone".  Africans will die if we 
do.  The problem is that too many people come into Africa with their own 
ideas without thinking about the consequences...

Such as?

P.M.:  I'll just look at home:  apartheid.  Verwoerd, in his infinite
wisdom, decided all of us South Africans needed to live apart.  But, good
grief, he separated our own flesh and blood!  Our cousins were cast off from
us just to satisfy Verwoerd's ego, AT THAT'S NOT RIGHT!  

Yes.

P.M.:  But I can't get out the #$&%! trap!  If we make that trek, a black
man will be running my life.  I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for
those hooligans running the streets.  It's awful.  The whites give the SADF
and SAP protection money and everybody else gives to the gangs.  My cafe is
immune to black boycott, but I allow fundraisers for the ultra-right.  Do
you know why?  

No.

P.M.:  It's because some people think I'm too liberal.  Some of those people 
think I'm selling out, just like they say De Klerk did.  My blacks, Mark and 
Louis, like me, and the Malay, Mike, really runs the joint.  But what do I 
do?  If we wind up with a black Milner, I'll have to stand solidly behind my
customers.  They're my friends and some are my family.

Well, it seems you're in a real pickle.  Let's get off on a lighter subject.

P.M.:  Let's.  Did you hear about the game between the Springboks and the 
Lions yesterday?  

How could I not?

P.M.:  Yeah.  Those Lions sure stuck it to them, and if it weren't for that
bloody demonstration, it would have been perfect!  

Uh...

P.M.:  I know, you like the Spingboks a lot more, but you gotta realize that
these parts are Lions country.  We take our rugby seriously here.  Nothing
like the weenie start-and-stop nonsense you got in the States!  By the way,
you keep telling us about the Minnesota Vikings?  How are they doing this
year?

Well, the Vikings have a new coach, Darrell Green, I think.

P.M.:  Isn't that the black guy?

Yes, and the team really turned around this year.  The Vikings are leading
their division right now and have a real shot at the Super Bowl.

P.M.:  Just makes you think what would happen to our South African
Springboks if the blacks played rugby, too.  We could all have the fun,
then!  But I guess it will never happen.  Blacks like that weenie game 
called football, or for you Americans, "soccer".

Not to mention the reluctance of your customers.

P.M.:  (Sigh) Yes.

Well, how are your kids doing?

P.M.:  Fine enough, so far.  I've been saving up for those fees, and within
a year Jan will be going to school.  I hope his teachers and classmates
accept him.  I'm really scared.

...to be continued

--Andrew Varvel--

NDISASVi
From: jacquier@gsbux1.uchicago.edu (Eric Jacquier )
Subject: Re: Mozambique: Ceasefire team in place
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:50:45 GMT

(kauta) writes:

> (Eric Jacquier ) writes:
>>UNITA ??  Do you mean RENAMO ?

>A distinction without a difference....:-) :-)

You are in fact quite right !!!
.. sad enough
EJ
From: oskar@isbank.is (Oskar Armannsson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Any sites in Ethiopia?
Keywords: Ethiopia
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:19:57 GMT
Organization: Islandsbanki, Reykjavik Iceland

I would like to know if there are any USENET sites in Ethiopia.  Especialy I
would know if there are any sites in Addis Ababa, but hearing of other parts
of the country would also be interesting.

Any informations will be mostly preciated.

Regards


-- 
    Oskar Armannsson          Internet: oskar@isbank.is   
    Islandsbanki h.f.         Phone:    354-1-608000      
    Kringlan 7                Fax:      354-1-678711      
    155 Reykjavik, Iceland
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Date: 5 Nov 92 04:51:10 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Nov4.164533.6497@sei.cmu.edu> firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes:
>And, even if we decide they're "wrong", what do we do about it? 
>principle.

Who are you to decide anything? You are no more entitled to opine on anything than I am to decide on homosexuality.


Makala
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: jacquier@gsbux1.uchicago.edu (Eric Jacquier )
Subject: Re: Mozambique: Ceasefire team in place
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:17:31 GMT


 writes:
>A team of ceasefire observers is now in place in Mozambique...
>The team consists of people from UNITA, FRELIMO, the UN and
>other international personnel...

UNITA ??  Do you mean RENAMO ?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: rosenfield's education question
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:01:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1471700247@igc.apc.org> jnr@igc.apc.org (Jim Rosenfield) writes:
>
>Cultures are not homogenous.  There are all kinds of lessons about living
>found in "western" (northern?) cultures which are not exclusively
>related to capitalism.

Right here you have divide and rule. Gentlemen. One of the great Africans of
this century Cheikh Anta Diop, father of African Egyptology, appropriately
wrote a book entitled "The Cultural Unity of Africa". Right here you have
alien who is hell bent on poking his soiled nose in our buisness. To tell us
that we are more different than we know, that he knows more than we do. 

More evily he thinks that he can patronise and '"educate" us. Those of you
who want your children to learn "Heather's two mums" can submit them to his
his tutelage. Me I will choose what I need to learn. This one I don't even want to see......




makala
o
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:5832 rec.sport.soccer:16201
From: ayoub@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: African Soccer: Latest Results
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:51:19 GMT
Reply-To: ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison

Does anyone have any news about the last round of the African Cup ('94)
qualifiers that were held a week ago ? I appreciate all responses.

Nabil

          .-------------------------------------------------------------.
         /  Nabil Ayoub                        ____/   __  /    ____/  /
        /  Engine Research Center             /       /   /    /      /
       /  Dept. of Mechanical Engineering    ___/    __  /    /      /
      /  University of Wisconsin-Madison    /       /   |    /      /
     /  Email:ayoub@erctitan.me.wisc.edu  _____/ __/   _|  _____/  /
    '-------------------------------------------------------------'
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Subject: Upcoming trade war
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:06:47 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


I'd like there to be a discussion of how any upcoming trade war between the
US and the EC will affect Africa.  I am quite concerned.

To get across the local situation, North Dakota farmers are in different
situations as per crop.

Sugarbeet farmers are protected by high quotas and tariffs (against cheap
sugar cane from Latin America and Africa), and will not budge from their
position.  (Why should they?  If there is not a protected market, they are
ruined.)

Canola, I believe, is the spark of this whole dispute.  It will be
interesting to see what happens to the canola economy on this. 

Wheat, especially durum, is a major economic strength of North Dakota.  THe
efficiency is as high as anywhere in the world, and would probably drive
European farmers out of business if there were totally free trade.

There are other commodities that will be affected, and I'll stay tuned for
info on them.

Now, I'm not exactly an expert on agricultural economics, but it is easy for
me to see the relevance of this to everyday life in Africa.  A massive trade
war (with massive subsidies) would cripple African farmers and make
starvation in Africa even more likely.  

Indeed, the entire world seems to be united (except for the US and the EC, 
that is) in revulsion against the madness of a massive trade war between 
the EC and US.

Any comments? (except the usual flames)

--Andrew Varvel--

North Dakota Institute for the Study of African Economics
From: gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Absence of black posters from SA
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:07:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: casper.BxM246.3qJ
Reply-To: gds@cs.uct.ac.za
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town

pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:
>I know boers, they are all liars down to the last one.

Oi, so I suppose it is OK for a boer to say "I know kaffirs, they are all
no-good down to the last one"?

Oh no, but wait, the boer will be racist if (s)he does that since (s)he's
is white and has global economic power while Mr Makala Mweene is not a 
racist since he is black and an African and no black African has (global)
economic power.

Ag nou ja, wat kan mens daarop s^e.

>I am not asking you to find an obscure primary school whic has one comp
>uter and parade it as an example of opportunity for black people.

I did not do that.  I pointed out two high schools (and I am sure the
students there would object to you calling their schoold obscure) where 
black students have access to computers to support my claim that you lie 
when you say "no black in SA has access to computers".

As for the rest of your diatribe, it is too rediculous to respond to, except
to add:
>I talked to my fiends Kaiser Modise and Jabulani Tambo who go the Univer
>sity of Cape Town. 
  [...]
>I asked them why they don't post on the net, and they told me that I am
>crazy. As simple black people, they'd better not show too much ambition.
  [...]
>When I informed them of the discussion on the net, they got animated and
>wished they had the opportunity to participate and set the boers straight.
>They thanked me for doing a good job and asked me to keep it up.

Please tell your friends they should come and speak to me and we can
discuss ways in which to give them access to the net.  Then they can "set
the boers straight" as much as they want to.  My office is on the 3rd
floor of the Computer Science building.  (They can also bring their bug
sweepers if they want to and I promise I will tell everyone they did not
want this and it is me pushing it down their throughts, so they won't be
accused of being ambitious.)

Have a good day.
-- 
Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: International Integration (was Re: female Circumcision)
Date: 7 Nov 92 02:07:20 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <vincent.512.721055377@cc.und.ac.za> vincent@cc.und.ac.za (Russell Vincent) writes:
>Perhaps it is to give them a fraction of the "elite" education that you are 
>obviously enjoying by being connected to the Internet - or do you want to 
>deprive them of that right, so that you can be their spokesperson without 
>their being able to disagree with you?
> -Russell

'I understand (and expect) your ethnic instinctive proclivities...
The "elite" education you are referring to was procured for me by people
by a conscious policy of their govt at considerable cost. Any South African
can get this same education too if he comes to America. As you know, I dont
set the admission policies here..   

What we oppose is the use of the use of the resources of South Africa in a
partial way. Where white South Africans alone have access to computers. We
(I) are telling them that if they want to play, they should allow blacks to
play. The situation here is that these we are helping these people to pract
ise apartheid.

Makala
 .

What 

From: megana@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Megan Adams)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:08:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african

I think it is entirely appropriate for the international community to
agitate against human rights violations in particular countries. The 
mutilation of the genitals of girls so they can never experience sexual
pleasure (orgasm) and suffer from problems with childbirth and intercourse
for the rest of their lives is such a violation of human rights.

If adult women choose to so mutilate themselves, I have no problem with it.

I wonder if the men defending this practice from criticism on 'cultural'
grounds are also against the role of Amnesty International in the 
international community. It has been frequently asserted by dictators
that their practices of torture of dissidents, etc, should not be
criticized because they were appropriate to a particular culture. 

Defending severe physical mutilation on cultural grounds is itself a
corrupt behavior---just as defending political torture on cultural
grounds is a corrupt behavior. I have noted that (at least on my feed)
all the people defending this practice from criticism are men. I think
it is totally unjustified for these *men* to assert that this practice
is above criticism when it is *women* who suffer its effects. 

The countries in which this custom is practiced are all characterized by an
extremely low status for women. In such countries, the support that an
international community can give for human rights for women is 
irreplaceable. It is a service to the world community, and is an effort
that needs to be *expanded*. I am not saying that women of the west 
should try to change things from the outside; I'm saying that we can
help women's organizations within such countries with resources, information,
etcetera.

And the men who think we should go away and shut up---TOO BAD!!! It won't
happen. I circulated a petition from a coalition made up of a long list
of international women's organization to the U.N. that makes issues
particular to women, whether they be rape, domestic violence, or 
genital mutilation, or others, issues of HUMAN RIGHTS. Organizing of this
type WILL CONTINUE SO GET USED TO GETTING OVER IT!!!

On a side note, I will assert that if this cultural practice of genital
mutilation has any validity, then it will continue when it is no longer
abusively enforced against small girls. If those who support this practice
*really* believed in it, they wouldn't need to force it on powerless 
children. They could rely on their powers of persuasion on adult women
who can make choices. 

Of course they don't really believe in it, and that's why they must rely
on force.

megana.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 07 Nov 92 19:52 PST
Subject: Clinton and NY Times on Somalia
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1471700232:000:2325
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Nov  7 19:52:00 1992


From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse>
Subject: Clinton and NY Times on Somalia

/* Written  7:36 pm  Nov  7, 1992 by AFRICA-L@VTVM2.apc.org in igc:bitl.africa */
/* ---------- "Clinton and NY Times on Somalia" ---------- */
Reply-To: "FORUM PAN-AFRICA (Peer Distribution List)"              <AFRICA-L@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse>
Subject:      Clinton and NY Times on Somalia

The day after the election, Clinton spoke from the Arkansas Governor's
Mansion, and early in his speech spoke on foreign policy.  The last
thing he mentioned was that he would continue aid to the famine victims
in Somalia.-=---That position in last place was emphatic rather than
dismissive in effect.

So that's a great hope.  I think maybe the nationwide Somalia lobby has
been attracting attention--the fact that Clinton spoke so soon after the
election suggests that it's been on his mind--and maybe on Hilary's--

but didn't fit into his "concentrate-on-the-US-economy" election strategy.

We need White House phone and fax nos. now to keep the requests going in.


Also very heartening the day after the election was the appearance of
a NY Times editorial entitled "Don't Forsake Somalia."

Excertp:

   "No humanitarian crisis ought to rank higher on the next American
President's crowded docket.  Unless aid gets to the famine victims, the Red
Cross reckons, a third of the nation may perish.
    "It would be morally intolerable to acquiesce in this preventable
tragedy.  If fighting disrupts relief shipments, then quell the fighting.
If a bigger UN force is needed, then get it. If UN intervention means
looters risk being shot, that is a risk they bring on themselves...
     "Domestic American politics clearly played a role in Washington's
reluctant half-hearted response to pleas last January from Secretary
General Boutros Boutros-Ghali for a strong peacekeeping force in Somalia.
Only when spectral images of starving children appeared on prime time did
President Bush respond with a US airlift.
     "The world's great powers, notably America and the former Soviet
Union, poured weaponry into Somalia when the Horn of Africa was a strategic
battleground.  Now that the guns have been grabbed by warlords without
heart or scruple, the world's great powers have a moral obligation to
prevent much of the nation from dying."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african