HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: emba-news.uvm.edu!bashiti@kira.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: US NAVY GETS RID OF M9'S
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:46:20 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility

#From article <53087@mimsy.umd.edu>, by mlh2416@zeus.tamu.edu (HERRING, MICHAEL LEWIS):
# 
# #From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk)
# #Message-ID: <52281@mimsy.umd.edu>
# 
# #I just read in the latest Guns&Ammo Assault Rifles issue that
# #apparantly due the flurry of problems with M9 during the Desert Storm
# #operation the U.S. Navy and Marines have formally requested that the
# <Secretary of the Navy allow them to completely drop the use of M9
# #Beretta.  Anyone has any information on the results of this request? 
# 
# #Tony
# 
# 
# does this mean that we as civilians would be abl to buy these, like we could 
# buy m1's?  (btw, does anyone know if the gov't still sells those?) or would
# they be destroyed?
# 
     Not to get off the limits of this group, but the govt. would consider
it politically incorrect to sell handguns to the public these days.  In
addition, even if the Navy did drop them which I can't prove either way,
the other services (air force and army) aren't mentioned above.  I'm sure
the weapons would be pressed into service there, or held in inventory for
various purposes including shipment to other governments.  
     As to the M1's, at this point the DCM is still selling M1's.  I 
believe they may also still be taking orders, but I am still waiting on
mine.  Shipment is now upto 6 months after payment.  Come oct '92 I 
believe the program is in deep doodoo.  I haven't heard what the effect
on sales of M1's will be due to the new funding requirements but i'm sure
that the price will climb greatly if they are still sold at all.  All this
being the case, it may be best to get an order in now.  No point in waiting
to see what happens until its too late...

later,
AJ
From: kirk@enterprise.Eng.Sun.COM ('Captain' Kirk DeHaan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:42:15 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 53010@mimsy.umd.edu, rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White) writes:
#In article <52962@mimsy.umd.edu> jvh@nature.berkeley.edu writes:
##
##Forgive me if this question has been asked, but I just got around
##to seeing "Thelma & Louise" and I just don't believe that a bullet
##from a handgun can cause a gasoline truck to explode.  It seems
##to me that the things must be thick enough to repel a handgun
##bullet or they'd be blowing up all the time.  Even were a bullet
##to puncture the tank, would it explode upon puncture?  I know in
##that case, gas would spill and another bullet could spark on something
##maybe, but on contact?  Does anyone know?
##
##Thank you
##
##Joan V
##
#
#I have a video (the name of which escapes me at the moment) in which they fire
#tracers into a gas tank about 1/3 full of gas.  You can seen the gas leaking
#out of the tank and you can see vapors all around the tank - it never
#explodes.  More movie B.S. I'm afraid.
#
#In another scene, a fellow selling soft body armour, shoots himself
#point-blank with a .44 mag - no problem and then shoots another fellow
#point-blank with a rifle (I forget the caliber).  The shootee is standing on
#one foot at the time and the impact doesn't even make him lose his balance.
#

This from a video called "Deadly Weapons".  Overall the video does comparisons
of various calibers into water jugs and dispels alot of lies such as the exploding
gas tanks.

Specifically the person being shot had on soft body armor with metal inserts.  The
rifle round was either a .308 or a .30-06.  Not something I would want to try even
with the armor.
---

 'Captain' Kirk DeHaan		  		     net - kirk@sun.com
  Sun Microsystems Inc.	 			     packet - n6sxr.ampr.org
  BBS/ The Rising Storm, 408/739-8693
From: harrism@aquila.rtp.dg.com (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hearing Protectors - HELP
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:34:18 GMT
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <53005@mimsy.umd.edu>, skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone) writes:
|> In article <52908@mimsy.umd.edu> jeffs@austlcm.sps.mot.com (jeff stump) writes:
|> #
|> #   I wonder if anyone out there has found any smaller or more comfortable
|> #hearing protectors. The headset types are comfortable except on hot/humid
|> #days when they are terrible to wear here ( Texas from Mar-Nov ). 
|> #Also, some rifle shooting is very uncomfortable with headsets on.

|> Ask an ENT. (Ear Nose Throat specialist). They could probably help with
|> custom (pour in ) ear plugs but I'd go for Silencios first.

	The ENT is going to charge you a bundle. Usually at least one
	person in a reasonable sized club will make these to pick up 
	a few bucks here and there. I've also seen people making them
	at gun shows. Typical charge is $20 - $25. If you want to do
	it yourself contact "Insta Mold" company. 1-800-555-1212.
	You'll need 8 or so people to break even.

regards,

Mike Harris - KM4UL                      harrism@dg-rtp.dg.com
Data General Corporation                 {world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!harrism
Research Triangle Park, NC
From: pfeiffer@NMSU.Edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:33:57 GMT

rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White) writes:

   In article <53044@mimsy.umd.edu> rtaraz@ascoli.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:

   #One more thing, how can a _soft_ body armour protect you from a .44 magnum?
   #

   Well Ramin, you can either trust me or buy the video.  The body armor is not
   penetrated by the .44 mag.  He did put two phone books under the vest first to
   help pad his chest I guess.  He said he does it so often (he's a salesman) his
   chest would be hamburger if he didn't use the books.  Also, the guy does not
   lose his balance when he takes the rifle round.

It is my understanding that being shot while wearing soft body armor
is not a pleasant experience:  you end up with one hell of a bruise,
and possibly a broken rib.  But no leaks!

-Joe.
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 Home Protection Gun Recommendations Sought
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:36 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <52661@mimsy.umd.edu> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
#In article <52601@mimsy.umd.edu>, bp816@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Krivis) writes:
## One thing no one has mentioned...  Don't use handloads for self-
## defense. They will make you out to be a monster in court if you
## ever actually have to shoot someone.
#How so?  In actual fact, the hand loads I use are not as hot as factory
#loads, so how could I be called a monster because I like paying half as
#much for ammunition?

But the prosecutor will NOT ask your motivation; he'll TELL the jury
what (he wants them to think) it is:  that you are so "into" harming
people that you get off by manufacturing your own lethal implements.

Of course, you and I don't buy this argument for one moment, but
such an argument would not be made for our benefit.  Juries might be
influenced by this notion, even if later contradicted by additional
testimony.

Of course this whole line of enquiry ought, in a rational world, to
be irrelevant.  If you were justified in using lethal force in self
defense, it shouldn't matter whether you used your bare hands or a
tactical nuke, so long as you didn't harm innocent people or their
property.  Unfortunately, legal proceedings are not entirely
rational.  For example, recently there have been rulings that allow
the "impact on the alleged victim's family" to be introduced in
evidence, despite that having NOTHING to do with the guilt of the
accused.  (Perhaps there should be a two-part trial, one to determine
whether the accused is guilty of a crime, then if so, a second part
to determine the penalty, in which such "evidence" might factor?)
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: First Pistol
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:31 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <53084@mimsy.umd.edu> by rhino@wpi.WPI.EDU (Joseph Rene Trudelle):

# I recently aquired my LTC in CT and am looking for a good introductory gun that
# I can use for plinking but will be accurate enough so that when I make the
# switch to competitive shooting there will not be a major change.  I so far have
# narrowed my choices down to a .22 revolver such as the Taurus 94, or with a
# little stretching of the bank account possibly a Rugar Mark II or Browning
# Buck Mark for the autos.  For 5 years I have been shooting air pistol on a
# competitive basis so learning to shoot whatever gun I purchase is not a major

I'd recommend the Ruger MkII.  It's a reasonably priced, well made, semi-auto
.22.  I've had one for about seven years and have been very happy with it.  The
added benefit of the Ruger is that if you want to switch from air pistol to
smallbore competition, there are a number of gunsmiths who can do very good
work on them.  I think Clark is one of them.

I'll be shooting my MkII in a match next month.  Eventually, I'll have it      
worked on, if I keep doing local bullseye matches.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Competition Pistol Question
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:05:28 GMT

I know there are some competitive pistol shooters on the net, so I'm hoping
one will know the answer to this question:

Just received the new May '92 issue of GUNS & AMMO in the mail over the
weekend. On page 66 there are two pictures of a special bolt-action 
custom long-range pistol which was used by Michael Plaxco to win the
Long Range event at the 1991 Masters. It is described as a "specially
stocked Ultra Light Arms 6mm and a Leupold scope" in the photo caption
but the text on page 69 describes it as "a Burris-scoped Ultra Light
Arms Model 20 6mm pistol".

What I'm wondering about is the strip of something that runs from just
behind the muzzle on top of the barrel to the underside of the forward
bell of the scope. It is thin and appears to be flexible -- it almost
appears to be black plastic electrician's tape. There's no mention of it
anywhere that I can find. What is it and what is its purpose?

It might be some sort of mirage or heat-haze deflector, something to
keep hot air rising from the barrel from getting in front of the scope
and distorting the sight picture. But if it was that, I'd think it would
be wider, at least as wide as the scope bell. Instead, it is only maybe
half-an-inch wide. And if it was tape, I would think it would melt on 
the barrel...

It can't be a carrying strap or sling -- it definitely connects to the
scope bell, so lifting the gun by that strap would strain and probably
damage the scope. So if anyone knows for sure what this thing is, please
post or mail. Thanks!

It appears that these shooters jury-rig all sorts of add-on junk to
their pistols at the last minute. The photo of the Long Range 6.5mm
BR modified Remington XP-100 of Rob Latham shows what seems to be a
crude sunshade extension on the front of his scope, made with tape and
cardboard or paper -- you can see writing on the material like he just
spooled some pieces of scribble paper and taped it to the scope. One
would think these professionals would have line gunsmiths supporting
them who would do a little more impressive job of last-minute updates...

Another interesting thing is that all these bolt-action special long-range
pistols look just like cut-down rifles, the exact same sort of thing
that one net poster mentioned was confiscated from him when he brought
it to a range (it was his grandfather's and pre-dated the 1934 ban/tax
registration business, I recall). So I wonder what sort of
documentation these shooters carry with them to prove that these are
really legally made from originally-pistol actions? Remington XP-100s
are well-enough known that they probably are no problem, but the other
models are unusual enough that I could see it being easy for BATF or
local law to hassle the shooter of such.

Regards, Will
wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil OR wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
From: rhino@wpi.WPI.EDU (Joseph Rene Trudelle)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: First Pistol
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:22:22 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

I recently aquired my LTC in CT and am looking for a good introductory gun that
I can use for plinking but will be accurate enough so that when I make the
switch to competitive shooting there will not be a major change.  I so far have
narrowed my choices down to a .22 revolver such as the Taurus 94, or with a
little stretching of the bank account possibly a Rugar Mark II or Browning
Buck Mark for the autos.  For 5 years I have been shooting air pistol on a
competitive basis so learning to shoot whatever gun I purchase is not a major
concern, however I am looking for a gun that will be as accurate as I am and
not something which will not hit the perverbial broad side of a barn at 20 ft.
Of course I have found that there are more opinions on what I should buy than
there are flies in an outhouse.  So I decided to put the question out to the 
world and hopefully I can come up with a good answer from here.  And to save
the net from a bunch of repetitive posts I would ask that any responses be
emailed to me, if that is convenient.  Any help will be greatly appreciated
and hopefully speed my decision.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 _L__________________________++   "Gun control is hitting your target on the
[______________   [__] ]]]   ]     first shot and all following."
[______________________     ]
                   L J| || |
                   L__| || |
                       | || |      rhino@wpi.wpi.edu
                       | || |
                        | || |
                        |____|
From: bbx!bbx.basis.com!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:30 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Albuquerque NM


In article <52907@mimsy.umd.edu> webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods) writes:
#In article <52833@mimsy.umd.edu> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
##
##Not only would this refute his stupid claim, but it would also tend to 
##lean the jury in favor of believing you overall -- especially if you
##demonostrated the prostitutor's ignorance several times.
#
#It would be dangerous to assume that a prosecutor doesn't know more
#than you do about the issues.  A good lawyer will never ask a question
#they don't know the answer to and they'll definitely do their homework.

As a long time participant in civil cases, I'll make a few comments in
regard to this thread:

1.  Perry Mason aside, the participants in a case don't enter the
    courtroom without having gone through discovery.  Discovery is
    where you get all of the dirt out of you're opponents case without
    exposing all of your good stuff.  You won't really be able to
    surprise anyone (except the jury) in a case.  If you try, it's
    likely that there will be countering testimony in your deposition,
    allowing your opponent to make a big deal of it.

2.  In any case such as this there are the hired guns: "expert"
    witnesses.  In many cases (all I've ever seen) the "expert"
    witness will support his side regardless of the facts.  You see,
    if you select your facts carefully enough you can damn near force
    a decision.  But even a bad expert will be able to give advice to 
    a ignorant lawyer.

3.  You might be able to logically refute a claim, but the emotional
    point has already been made in the jury's mind.  Taking this
    "case" into consideration I'd suggest that if you could keep the
    prosecution from making you out to be a monster you can then play
    on the jury's emotions and make them feel that you are the victim
    in this case, and deny any award (and maybe get your legal fees
    back - but that almost never happens).

These final notes are for anything thinking like Andrew's quote above:

Look: if you shoot someone, even in the most justified defense, you'll
be investigated at the least.  Making that investigation as painless
involves having as few questions about your motivation as possible. 
If, at the end of the investigation there's no questions that you
*had* to do it, and were about as reasonable as you could be,
minimizes the chance of a civil trial.  If there's a criminal trial
you can bet that there'll be a civil trial as well (probably waiting
on the findings from the criminal trial).

Get a copy of Mas Ayoobs _In the Gravest Extreme_.  That'll tell you
more than all of usenet, and tell you why these things are important
as well.  Then come back and chat.

-- 
Russ Kepler, Basis International Ltd. russ@bbx.basis.com  phone: 505-345-5232
From: skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "GLOCK" - A Book Review
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:16 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <52804@mimsy.umd.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
#15 Accessories and Special Stuff [factory and third party items,
#    including the much discussed "Amphibious Firing-Pin Spring Cups"
#    which allow the Model 17 (only) to be fired underwater.  The

Are these available to the gneral public from any source?
Did these look easy to manufacture yoursef?
Just curious.

#    author calls them the "least-known" Glock option, but net
#    denizens have been discussing them for quite some time.  A 
#    number of other Glock produced options including holsters,
#    training aids, an entrenching tool and knives are discussed,
#    along with third party magazines, and competition modifications.]

Stu
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need pro-gun quotes (old post)
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:19:11 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


Howdy All:

A little while ago, someone posted a list of quotes (pro-gun of course) from 
our founding fathers.

I saved it, but somehow lost the file.
If someone would be kind enough to repost it, I'd be VERY appreciative.

Never hurts to have paper ammo to hunt the bleeding heart liberal - they're 
EXCELLENT game for urban areas!!!!!

Eddie

Don't tread on me.........................I bite (hard and often)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: kdlin@laplace.scd.ucar.edu ( Desperado )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIGvsCOLT
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:37 GMT
Organization: UCLA School of Engineering and Applied Science


In article <52912@mimsy.umd.edu> btree!andy@UCSD.EDU (Andy Bosik) writes:
#....
#If I were to do it all over again;rather than spending the money
#on a GOLD CUP then modifying it to taste, I would now buy a gun
#that has most of what I want already for less money than a stock
#GOLD CUP,such as the SAFARI ARMS MATCH MASTER or similar guns.

Has anyone owned a Safari Arms Match Master? I was thinking about this
gun too but one gunsmith told me that it is a junk. Any comments?

Please post or e-mail to kdlin@ee.ucla.edu. Thank you.

D.
--
		Defend your life with style -- shoot a Beretta!!
From: adobe!meastman@uunet.UU.NET (Mark Eastman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need opitical spanner wrench to service scope
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:15 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

I'm looking for a tool source that carries small spanner wrenches to
disassemble some old scope optics for cleaning ('been in the basement
too long). Are there any gunsmiths out there who can recommend a source
for tools to remove delicate retaining rings in optics?

Thank you,

Mark Eastman
meastman@adobe.com
From: uk09365@nx05.mik.uky.edu (robert i kesten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:06 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

# In article <52674@mimsy.umd.edu>, mbrown@convex.com (Mark Brown) writes:
# #
# ##|Kids are less likely to get in trouble with a shotgun in the house.
# #
# #_ANY_ kind of gun that is kept in a house with kids should have a 
# #trigger lock on it when the adults aren't around.

Keep in mind that handgun ownership for defensive purposes - in terms of  
absolute numbers and ratio to defensive longarm ownership - has gone up  
several fold in the last 70 years while accidental shooting deaths in the  
home have continued to decline.  A properly secured handgun is -  
statistically - safer than a loaded shotgun or rifle kept next to the  
front door.

RIK
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: alternating 00 buck and slugs t
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:40 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <53000@mimsy.umd.edu>, sybok@m4-035-19.MIT.EDU (The Terminator) writes:
# In article <52983@mimsy.umd.edu> paulh@tekcae.cax.tek.com (Paul Hammer) writes:
# #
# ##Oh, and if you're steadfast on a shotgun, don't use any kiddy calibers like
# ##0.410 or 20-gauge--use a 12-gauge semi-auto with 00 Buck alternated with slugs
# ##in the magazine. :-)
# #
# #Should a slug be first, or a 00 buck?
# 
# 00 buck.

Neither if you do not have brick walls or live in an apartment building!

Slugs and 00 buck will penetrate several walls and could kill people in 
other buildings.  

04 buck has been recommended if your walls are not masonry.  Note that this
may still end up in someone else's home (or body!), so take careful aim and 
*know* what is behind your target!





-- 
It's a wonderful feeling when you voted for the winner, but the time to vote for
the guy who "could win" is past: vote your conscience - Marrou/Lord in 92!
Andrew Ford INTERNET: gtephx!forda@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
            UUCP: !uunet!samsung!romed!asuvax!gtephx!forda
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Fire Forming your Brass - questions
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:05:38 GMT

Hi,
  {Moderator: I apologize that this is not related to the 9mm vs 10mm vs .45,
the open carry, or the shotgun vs pistol at home debates, However,
on a semi related subject... :)}

	I need to fire form some brass for my wildcat.  It's a
necked down .348 Winchester (Ackley 30-348).
	I bought the gun with 100 rounds of allready formed brass, 
but would like to form another 100 rounds. After necking down the brass
there is still the shoulder to be formed.  My limited understanding is 
that this requires fire-forming the brass. (I ordered ackleys books,
sure wish that they would arrive).  

I've heard that 1/2 charge loads work well.  A normal load I'm currently 
using is 58grains of 4831 pushing a 150gr bullet.  I've also heard that 
squib loads with 4831 is a "bad" idea (ie, detonation).

Does anyone want to offer any pearls of wisdom on how to do this 
without bodily harm?

Larry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"..suprise, make your attack and disappear.."	Galland

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 5133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  	
Washington D.C.	20375-5000