From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: What is "Sexual Orientation"?
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:54:47 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



# /(cramer)
# /Why does that matter?
# 
(me)
# Because if you receive the money or the benefits, then you play by the 
# moneygiver's rules. And the moneygiver's rules state that you don't 
# get to discriminate.

/(cramer)
/Why does a non-profit organization get to ignore those rules, then?

Because the govt reserves the right to regulate trade and commerce.
Nonprofit organizations are not engaged in trade or commerce.



/(cramer)
/A non-profit gets the benefit of not being taxed.  Shouldn't they
/be similarly obligated?

No.  The basis for taxation is the fact that taxes come from revenue.
You make money, you prosper, the govt gets a cut on the profit.

Nonprofit organizations do not have positive revenue flow, and are
not established for the purpose of making profit.



(cramer)
/If you as an individual receive money from the government (AFDC,
/a federal education grant, etc.), do they have the right to make
/rules concerning who you can refuse to have sex with?

No.  But they do have the right to restrict how you can use that money.
They have the right to make rules related to the _how_ and _why_ you 
received the money.
Receiving money for education means that they can set rules on the
education; but not on your medical situation.  Receiving money for
medical expenses means that the govt can set rules on your medical
situation, but not on your education.

Receiving money in a business situation means that the govt can set rules 
on how you conduct your business.  Since the money / benefits you receive 
are derived from taxes from ALL of us, the govt has a responsibility to see 
to it that its money is not being put to use in a way which discriminates 
against some of its citizens.



(me)
# The govt and the people of the United States have determined, through
# the Equal Opportunity laws, that there are certain basic things that
# every person deserves access to:  a job, housing, voting, etc.  and that
# no one may be turned down for these things based upon a nonrelevant
# personal characteristic. 


(cramer)
/The govt and the people of the State of Georgia have determined,
/through the sodomy laws, that there are certain basic things which
/every person should not do.  Does that make you feel warm and comfortable?

Is this supposed to prove something, Clayton?
The govt and the people of Missouri have determined through the sodomy
laws that it is a crime for the woman to be on top of the man during
sex.  So what?

If you want to talk about legal blunders, I can name several.  If you 
want to talk about civil liberties, then kindly get back to the point.



(me)
# THEN
# To be consistent, you should also be complaining to blacks, Hispanics,
# and Jews that they are using the govt to interfere in the private affairs of 
# employers and landlords.  


/(cramer)
/I do complain.  

So, if I go over to one of the other discusssion groups (such as 
alt.discrimination), I am going to find you over there, being as strident
and obnoxious as you are here?

I thought not.


(cramer)
/I also complain to the white liberals who are the
/ones that argue most vigorously for these laws.

You are wrong.  The ones arguing the loudest are the ones who have benefitted
from the laws.  



(me)
# Why is this important?  There are many things the govt has done that
# we are now ashamed of.  Pointing out past mistakes of the federal
# govt does not lend weight to your point.


(cramer)
/It points out that the solution is government neutrality, not 
/government activism.

It does not point out either conclusion.  Is ensuring basic liberties
your definition of "government activism"? 

If so, then you would also probably take the side of the fundamentalists
who interpret Leviticus literally and want to kill "witches and homosexuals".
These folks believe that government intervening to prevent them carrying
out the "will of God" is also an example of "government activism".



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