From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: little lies...
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:08:44 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Returning comments to my comments on his article Faruk od Bosne
made several belittling remarks. I do not write here to insult
anybody, but to voice my opinions which are based in my knowledge
of the situation in the former Yu. I agree that my knowledge does
not exceede an average news and media reader's one + some personal
communication from friends in the former YU (not just one Republic).
I agree also, that anybody can question it and offer more facts.
But I do not approve of personal attacks, since they are insulting
counterproductive, and in general just abuse the network and its
readers. I will aswer some of the Faruk's comments here, because I don't
think he was deliberately malicious (since he doesn't know me personally)
but just hurt. In the future, I will refrain from answering insulting
postings.

faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:

>part 1

>>In article <Dec.10.04.10.16.1992.366@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>>>faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
>>|>In article <Dec.9.02.23.13.1992.18706@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>>|>pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>|> faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:

FARUK:
>If the people of Sandzak and Kosovo do not want to live within Serbia,
>why are the serbs forcing them to do so? That is my basic question.
>There is
>a Jewish proverb: good fence makes good neighbors. It is very true.

ANA:
|> Well, then, why not the same standard for the Serbs? If the Serbs in
|>Croatia
|> and Bosnia and herzegovina do not want to live within these republics, why
|> should they be forced?
|> 
|> See, the arguments in this war, the one based on national rights cancel 
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> each other!! And Kosovo is the reversed issue: if you apply arguments
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> that defend borders of Croatia and BiH, then you also have to defend
|> the borders of Serbia (which have always included Kosovo, even when it was
|> an autonomous province, it was a province in Serbia). If you say that
|>Serbia 
|> should give Kosovo to Albanians, then why not the Croatian and the Bosnian
|> Krajinas to Serbs?

|>This was my point: 

FARUK:
>And point is a point is a point ... 

A: In other words, Faruk tells us that Ana is just rattling....

ANA:
|>the arguments based on national rights cancel each other
|>and only add to fear hatred and continuation of the war!!!

FARUK:
>... and your arguments stink. 
>Good fence makes good neighbors.

A: There are nicer ways to say the same! And even if it is true that
   a good fence makes good neighbors, it is impossible to make a
   good fence between the national groups in the Balkans. Somewhere
   else you said that (paraphrase) one would have to go through
   bedrooms!! So, there is one fact, I hope you agree with me:
   borders based on national principle are impossible - or you
   have a war like the one going on with "ethnic cleansing".
   Do you agree?

ANA:
|>You proceed to prove who has greater national rights:

FARUK:
>Not at all. You lost me altogether. I said, as well as all others,
>that all nations have their rights. And my positions is that all nations
>have equal rights to exist in freedom and dignity. And I was trying to 
>give you some facts, with the aim of learning. 

A: O.K. Maybe I didn't quite get this about dignity and freedom. In that
   I agree with all my heart.

FARUK:
>Well mme, let's go one think at a time.

>First I have never said that serbs in "Krajina" should not get the right for 
>independence. However, at least in Bosnia, they have no "clean"
>territory. In 
>some parts of Bosnia serbs are simple majority, however 10 km down the road 
>they are minority. (In this respect I would rather call "Krtajina" a region,
>like  Sumadija or Slavonija, etc.)  President Izetbegovic used to say that 
>Bosnia is like a leopard fur pattern. It is impossible to draw ethnic lines
>unless they go through the bedrooms. Kosovo for comparison is not. That's 
>why serbs in Bosnia resorted to the ethnic cleansing. 

>I am talking here about integrity of Bosnia, and separability of Kosovo
>from Serbia. 

ANA:
|>But that holds also for Kosovo. Even though it is more homogenuous,
|>(90% Albanian) Serbian claims based on history and national rights are
|>even stronger there, maybe, than in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yet, they are
|>not just if they hurt the people who live there. 

FARUK:
>... and you through me into the history. Toward the end you will abandon
>historic arguments.

A: You missed my point (again a point!) Geographically - yes, maybe
   Albanians in Kosovo are geographically easier to separate from
   Serbia. Psychologically - no. More Serbians view Kosovo as an
   integral part of Serbia from which they have been pushed out by
   various manipulations of the former regime, than they view Bosnia
   to be a part of Serbia. Today the people of Serbia (within the
   borders of Serbia) are very divided regarding the war in Bosnia
   and I may even guess that more of them are against it and if
   asked would probably vote for its end. And if more of them only
   knew about its true nature, even more of them would be against
   it. But, their feelings about Kosovo are quite different and
   there they are more united. That is why Kosovo isn't any more
   separable from Serbia than Bosnia is divisible into ethnic
   Kantons. [BTW, I am not justifying the regime in Kosovo here!
   I think that it should be stopped immediately. But I have
   just tried to outline the state of the affairs].

ANA
|>As you say:

FARUK:
>Second is the human rights. Nobody ever drudged serbs in Bosnia. That's why
>a lot of Bosnian serbs want to live together (listen to bravery award 
>journalist newswoman from Bosnia Mrs. Dubravka Knezevic, serb). Contrary, 
>Albanians in Kosovo suffer the most brutal oppression ever known. 10% of
>serbian population do not allow 90% Albanians to use their language, to have
>any infrastructure like schools, hospitals, newspapers, TV, but anything.

>I am talking here about human rights ...

ANA:
|>This, BTW is not quite true, and there is a longer and complicated history
|>of what was going on in Kosovo during past 50 years. That is why the
|>problem with Kosovo is even more complicated than the problem with
|>Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it is preciselly complicated BECAUSE of the
|>nationalism on both sides and because the history of oppression in
|>Kosovo runs two ways - That is why any hope for peace there and anywhere
|>else must not be based on national rights but on human rights!!!

FARUK:
>... you brought me into history. BTW, what is that is not quite true?
>You want more: indiscriminate killing by serbian police of demonstrators,
>youngsters on the market, 0.5 milion Albanians interrogated in serbian 
>prisons. There is not enough space to tell you everything.

A: I agree as I said that the opression in Kosovo is terrible and
   should be stopped immediately. What I meant with "it is not
   quite true" is the following: In the recent history (not 500,
   or 2000 years ago - but in the past 50 years since the end
   of the WWII) the manipulations of the peoples in the Kosovo
   region were aimed at both sides. First, (right after the WWII)
   the Serbs who fled the region during the War were forbiden to
   return to their homes and land. Then the refugees from Albania
   were not only taken in, but also given houses, land and rights
   of citizenship (without really establishing it) in Yugoslavia.
   Then for years the taxes from the whole country, but especially
   Serbia were poured into the Kosovo province to help their economy
   as an undeveloped region. At the same time, the authorities in Kosovo
   embraced education from Albania proper (which was openly hostile
   to the Yugoslavian regime and Serbia in particular) - importing
   textbooks and curricula which openly fostered hatred toward
   non-Albanian neighbors. And while leading Albanians in Yugoslavia
   were equal partners in the tops of the federal government and had
   not just an autonomy in the ruling in Kosovo, but even the power of
   veto over decisions in the Serbian parlament, at the same time
   a quiet "ethnic cleansing" of the remaining Serbian population
   in Kosovo was going on. This was all possible because the
   regime (communist - or call it what you wish) was already playing
   their deadly games of devide and rule. Instead of using all the
   economic help they have received over the years, the leadership
   of Kosovo had held their people in the state of utter poverty,
   indoctrinating them with hatred against Serbs. All that in the
   times when they had all the rights in the world as an ethinc
   group. Why did they do it, I don't know, but what I know is that
   there was absolutely NO Serbian domination in Kosovo at that
   time - quite the opposite, in fact. The time I am talking about is
   the time prior to Milosevic. 

   That is the complicated "history" of Kosovo - as much as the
   Albanians are now oppressed, so were the Serbs oppressed during
   the autonomy of the Kosovo region. I do not approve of either
   oppression. I think the Albanian people were terribly manipulated
   and deliberately kept in poverty by their leaders. I think that
   now they are the victims of the Serbian leadership. As well as
   the Serbian people in Kosovo were victims of Albanian leaders,
   and now are manipulated by the Serbian leadership. 

   In that one case, one can see how national leaders on both sides
   have used and still use nationalism as a tool to separate and devide
   people in order to keep them opressed, and at least quiet while
   they (the leaders) themselves gain more power and more wealth.

FARUK:
>In addition to that serbs are building the largest serbian church in the
>heart of Pristina (Kosovo capital). Will the serbs 500 years from now again
>claim that Pristina is the cradle of serbian nation because of this church.
>Reversing the direction, shall we now believe serbs when they say same
>on the 
>basis of Pecka patrijarsija. Or maybe Pecka patrijarsia was built with the
>same intentions as the current church in Pristina. Kosovo is an ubiquitous
>example of serbian justice toward the non-serbs. 

A: You see, it is crazy to invoke history in order to justify criminal
   deeds. That holds for Serbs, but also for Albanians, Croats, Bosnians,
   Greeks, Macedonians, .... everybody. History should be used to
   learn better, to say: Hey, if our forfathers did this, we won't! And,
   Hey, If your forfathers did this and that, it doesn't make YOU
   guilty! Only with reasoning like that the blood feuds in the Balkans
   can be stopped.

ANA:
|>  With hopes for peace (upon you. - added by Faruk, a nice touch!)

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|>Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
|>334 Winona St.
|>Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu

>Faruk.

And with hopes for a better understanding and peace,

Regards,

Ana M. Shane

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Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:794 soc.culture.croatia:45