HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfc@nic.cerf.net (Co Ho)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christianity in Decline?
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:57:32 GMT
Organization: CERFnet Dial n' CERF Customer Group


	Keep in mind that:

1) The way we measure 'declining' and 'increasing' is base on what we see
and not on what God see.  He always has a different angle too look at things.

2) If we talk about population of Christians, keep in mind that the
world's population has been growing exponentially, therefore, that will
make comparision with Christian's population extremely hard.  (Arithmetric
growth vs. Geometric - or Logarithmic - growth) - I don't remember the
exact name, but you get the ideas!

3) Beware of statistic!  (Just ask any statistician to see how reliable
are those measurement)

-- 
Co Ho  - FJC Software Development | "..is there a vision that I can call my
321 E. Chapman Fullerton CA 92632 | own? Feel like I'm looking for a reason
(714) 992-7274 BBS:(714) 992-7754 | -roaming through the night-  to find my
Alt.Addr=xcho@ccvax.fullerton.edu | place in this world.."   MichaelW.Smith
From: dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bye-bye Home Bible Studies
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:24:28 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <Jan.26.04.44.44.1993.15067@athos.rutgers.edu> ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com (Jon Ogden) writes:
#>I can't believe that this kind of legislation hasn't been taken to trial.
#
#Maybe it will soon be time to take cases to the courts fighting for the so
#often ignored second half of the Bill of Rights - that is that no law shall be
#passed "prohibiting the free practice thereof."  In my mind city regulations
#about parking cars on streets is a subordinate law to the Bill of Rights. 
#Therefore such regulations ARE unconstitutional since they prohibit someone's
#free practice of religion.

This would seem to have had a better chance before the excesses of the
Reagan appointees to the Supreme Court. Because, now, the State no longer
has to show a "compelling state interest", merely a "rational basis" if
a law restricts religious practice as a side affect. And on that standard,
parking laws would be upheld.

--Dave
(Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, just an interested layman)

-- 
Dave Weinstein
Internet: dweinste@gnu.ai.mit.edu
"Wives have no sympathy for Rugby injuries." -- Dan Smith
From: gt6851a@prism.gatech.edu (Brian King)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Why is School Prayer Considered a Moral Issue?
Date: 21 Jan 93 09:25:36 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

>I'm not sure I understand why prayer in public schools is such a hotly 
>contested issue.  If kids really want to pray that badly, why can't they just
>go to the library during lunch?  Or better yet, why can't they do it at home?
>With the American educational system in such pitiful shape (Gee, give me 
>another chance to identify the United States on a world map --I'll get it
>right this time!) schools are hard-pressed to teach the 3 R's, much less be 
>a surrogate parent or pastor for students!
>
May be I am mistaken, but I thought the primary objective of the
schooling system is to turn out good citizens.  To this end, using
5-10 minutes to contemplate your value system "silently" might not
be such a "waste" of time.  Perhaps this should be followed by a
group discussion, that may help mutual understanding of each other's
point of view.  This may move us towards a more harmonious
society where people agree to disagree with understanding.



You ARE mistaken -- the primary objective of the school system is to educate,
not to "turn out good citizens."  Besides, who decides what consititutes a 
"good Citizen?"  You?  Me?  Jesse Helms?!             

>>To this end, using
5-10 minutes to contemplate your value system "silently" might not
be such a "waste" of time.  Perhaps this should be followed by a
group discussion, that may help mutual understanding of each other's
point of view.


Have you thought about the practical matter of giving 5-10 minutes of "silent
time" to a group of junior high school kids?  It would be a farce:  talking,
socializing, doing last-minute homework/cramming for a test --anything but
a "contemplation of one's value system,...[with] mutual understanding of each
other's point of view."  it would inevitably accomplish nothing, and would 
take away valuable classroom time.

 
-- 
"in this day & age...music performed by humans?...Hum?! - Wilde Silas Tomkyn 
"Walking the fine line... between Pagan and Christian...." - Steve Vai
Brian King - Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta: gt6851a@prism.gatech.edu
From: rcheek@access.digex.com (Richard Cheek)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why is School Prayer Considered a Moral Issue?
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:51:16 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

The topic of prayer in schools is complicated by the fact that the 
phrase itself is so emotion laden. When I hear the phrase "prayer
in school" I think of the fact that in my schools I attended, there was 
little toleration of christianity by the teachers, and any open prayer
by anyone was met with ridcule from certain students and teachers.
The low opinion held of christianity was thinly veiled, if at all, for
instance we had one instructor who would do parodies of preachers in 
his classes to the uproarious laughter of some and the embarrassed silence
of others. It often made me think how far he could have gone with such
things had he been caricaturing some other ethnical or religious stereo-type
besides southern fundamentalists (its always PC to lampoon fundies and 
greedy buisnessmen).
I do not wish to see anyone compelled to pray to God, nor do I wish that
teachers lead such in our public schools; I do desire the unfettered
freedom to express my beliefs where of religious origin as well as where not,
be this just before class, or a football game; whether in the form of quoting
the Bible in relevant moments or to simply pray and do the sign of the cross
without having anyone give me disaproving looks, especially if they are
instructors. I wish to be given the freedom to answer baseless charges and
attacks in the forum in which they occur and not feel the need to slink out
of class after having half of the students present deride men I admired.
That is what I want; equal rights for religious expression in the public forum
especially in those forums in which I or my beliefs are attacked.
On a somewhat related subject: please, those of you in favor of federal
support of private schools, do reconsider what you are calling for! The
federal government has not failed to control what it subsidises in even one
instance in the last thirty years! Do we wish our private schools to
become the same pits of mediocrity that the public schools are, and as
devoid of moral grounding? This will happen if federal funds are made
available to private schools; it would be better we risk half of them going
out of buisness.
As to the remark about creationism: what happened to the appeals to equal
time for truth during the Scopes trials? What happened to John Stuart Mills
competition in the free market of ideas? It seems now that creationism can't
be presented as an option in the schools now, as we again discover that
an appeal for tolerance has metamorphosed into a demand for conformity.
I'm willing to wager that most of those who fear the teaching of creationism,
even in a philosophy course, don't know Jack Daniel about it. Bet? Respond
via E-mail if you wish.

Richard
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: School Prayer
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:51:47 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

jsg1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JONATHAN SCOTT GIBSON) writes:

[...]
>Another point, if you are really interested in getting schools to have a
>prayer meeting for interested students, enter it as a club.  The system lets
>other clubs into the school and it's only fair that they don't restrict
>Christians.  If a gay group wanted to meet in the school, you know that they
>would be allowed to because it's politically incorrect to stop them.  God
>bless!
[...]

In fact, several state *universities* have recently tried to ban gay.
(I've never heard of high school students trying to form such a club).
The students eventually won in court, because such bans were found
violate the the freedom of association protection in the first
amendment.

The Supreme Court affirmed, I think last year, that high school
religious clubs have the same protection.

- Carl

-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
From: jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: What are the Triads?  Who are the Irvingites?
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:39:44 GMT
Organization: MacNeal-Schwendler Corp.

Hello, 

I argued with a person last night who was defending the "word-faith" 
movement with what seemed to me to be an unorthodox Christology.  He 
tries to argue from Phil. 2 and using "kenotic theory" that Christ 
divested himself of all divine power and perogatives while living the life
of a man on earth.  As a man, devoid of divine knowledge and power, he
lived and exercised miracles by exercising the word of faith -- speaking 
into being things that are not just as any of us can do (even greater 
works will we do...).  I believe that he holds to other strange ideas 
such as the "born again Jesus" idea and others, but I am not familiar 
with the teachings.

He attempted to support his ideas in part by appealing to the following:

1.  "The Triads" which concerns a debate, "Gregory Palamas against Barlaam",
    and concerns some signs and wonders performing monks called the 
    Heseychistis?  He was speaking so I am not sure about the correct
    spellings.

2.  Edward Irving and the Irvingites.

What do any of you out there know about either of these two subjects.
I have heard of the Irvingites but know nothing about them.  I am not
familiar with the Triads.

I would be interested in hearing what anyone has to say about the 
kenotic theory and the word of faith movement theology.  It would be
nice to have an intelligent summary of the word of faith teachings 
from someone who understands and believes them.

Thank you for your information.

John Baskette  jfb@macsch.com
From: prmader@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MICHELLE MADER)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Question about Joseph
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:29:03 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

I have always believed that Jesus did have brothers and sisters, 
particularly in light of Mark 6:2,3.  I also often wondered what happened
to them and why Jesus did not entrust Mary to one of them.  Originally
I thought maybe they had died before Jesus but then I found that many
scholars believe that the NT books of James & Jude were written by
Jesus's brothers.  After re-reading John, I concluded that Jesus's
brothers were not present at the crucifiction.  John was there, was a
close friend of Jesus, and was willing to care for Mary.  

I've often thought about Jesus's brothers and sisters.  It's kind of
comforting to think that Jesus had the human experience of siblings.
(I've told my daughter, who is oldest, that Jesus know what it's like
to be the oldest child.)  I've also wondered what it must have been
like to have Jesus as an older brother (the Son of God as your older
brother). :)
From: rpitts@darth.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ARMSTRONGISM
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:49:35 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech CERL/EE, Atlanta, Ga

In article <Jan.24.23.47.35.1993.3008@athos.rutgers.edu> markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen) writes:
>  As far as CRI is concerned, I subscribe to their magazine and I occasionally
>listen to their Bible Answer Man show.  Yes, they are very compassionate when >
>they
>deal with callers of other religions, even cults.  But the day I listened

Agreed - they are very concerned about individuals, but the teachings
they take a hard line on.  We are to pluck people out of the midst of the
fire - hating even the clothes, which is spotted by the flesh.

>to them over this John MacArthur issue, they were outright condescending toward
>those that stood against John MacArthur on this issue.  They even ridiculed >
>them
>and all had a good laugh.  No exageration!  I was shocked, dismayed, and >
>angered.

I wish I could commit on this, but I didn't hear the program.  Did they
attach the person or the teaching of the person?

>Those they ridiculed tended to be from fundamental backgrounds, Bob Jones
>University and Pensecola Christian Academy were two institutions mentioned by
>name.  They also attacked one of the staff of BJU.  Amazing how tolerant they >
>are 
>and aware of the sensitivity in dealing with cultists, but then they openly
>ridicule men who stand firm in the faith.

What did they attach his for - was it that he was wrong or that he was
teaching hersy or what???  "Attacked" is a pretty broad word and in context
here it could mean that they attacked his teaching because it was as heretical
as the cults.

CRI is very good about NOT ATTACKING THE PERSON, but the TEACHINGS.
What did they address?

>  Because of this one episode, I have chosen not to support CRI in any way ever
>again.                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^

Sorry to say this on line, but intolerance is voiced from you view, too.
They do a great work.

Back to the point.  If you call them or write them, I'm sure CRI will
be quick to apologize and realize their lack of compassion, if that
is what it was.  

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu  |    Love and Worship God the Father and His Son, 
                      --|--            the Creator of the Earth. 
Pro-Life!          -|-  |  -|-  Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility! |   |   |   before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6
From: eng10205@nusunix1.nus.sg (LING SIEW WEE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Online bible
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:56:30 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

Arthur T. Manning (manning@halley.est.3m.com) wrote:
: After posting the request, I found a reference to what I am looking for.
: The online bible is available via anonymous ftp from 
: wuarchive.wustl.edu    /doc/bible/ibm-pc  and /doc/bible/mac
: 
: I'm amazed that this stuff is FREE!!!!

How is the product?? It is useful? And how much space it occupies? What
version of the bible does it contains?

Wilfred Ling
From: dsegard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Meat and the Bible
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:30:13 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


 jlong@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu (John Long) asks:
 > Can a Christian eat meat? (I mean *flesh*, baby, bloody, carnal,
*flesh*)

       Genesis 9 would be the basis for eating meat.  But the command is
that it must be drained of blood first.  And there must be proper treatment
of the animal as well.  Grabbing an animal and gnawing on it's limb while
it is still alive is obviously not nice, and is forbidden as well.  The
command about the animal being drained of blood prior to eating is restated
in Acts 15 as a command for the Gentiles who were joining the Church.
Presumably the Jews in the Church continued to abstain from eating the
unclean animals.  But the command of Genesis 9 to eat meat does not appear
to have ever been over-ruled.  Some would probably point to Peter's vision
of the sheet coming down as evidence that meat eating was still commanded.
I know there are some who claim that the vision was to tell Peter that he
should no longer keep kosher and that he should eat the unclean creatures
in the sheet (sewer rats, spiders, snakes and the like).  However, since
Peter was given the interpretation of the vision as being symbolic of other
humans and not food, I would advise staying away from such interpretations.
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph W. Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (1-24)
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:46:25 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Sunday, January 24:

     By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love 
among yourselves.  <John 13: 35>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Adultery, non-marital sex, and forgiveness
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:51:18 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Jan.20.00.10.37.1993.858@geneva.rutgers.edu> jcj@tellabs.com writes:

>That also raises the issue of non-marital sex.  Can a Christian say 
>with clear conscious to a potential spouse, "I can't marry you because you 
>had sex with your high school honey/ex-fiancee/whatever"?  If we are 
>taught to forgive then we should also forgive them that, shouldn't we?

I don't think forgiveness necessarily comes into play here.  A potential
spouse hasn't sinned against me by something he did with someone else in
his past.  I may have trouble dealing with it and accepting it, but
forgiving him isn't, as I see it, the issue.  

>You might say a *true* Christian would wait for marriage, but we also
>know the flesh can be weak, people are sinful (willingly and unwittingly)
>and people make mistakes.  What about someone who is new to the
>faith and truly regrets their past?

Speaking only for myself, I would pray that God would help me accept this
person's past and open myself to a relationship with him if he truly does
regret the past.

>Suppose your spouse had an affair; could anyone, in good faith, say 
>"Well, God can forgive you, but I can't"?  I suspect at first I'd hardly
>react in a Christian manner, but isn't forgiveness fundamental to the 
>Christian faith even in the case of adulterous behaviour?  

Yes.  But earlier in your post, you asked why divorce was permitted in the
case of adultery, especially when we're commanded to forgive.  My response
is that forgiveness is one thing, but trust is another.  There are people
in my life who have deeply hurt me, and I can honestly say that, through
God's grace, I truly forgive them.  Bitterness and anger are gone.  But I
*don't* trust them.  To earn another person's trust, one must prove
one's self worthy of it.  Once that trust is gone, it's a very, very
difficult thing to regain.  I think it's entirely possible to forgive an
adulterous spouse but to not be able to trust him.

Just because we forgive someone doesn't mean everything will go back to
being as it was before.  It can't.  I've seen couples manage to salvage
their marriages in the face of adultery, so I know it happens, but it's a
different marriage than it was once.  And some people just can't do it.  



-- 
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time.     -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
From: sl313028@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Christ is ALL Dat)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian Church Disciples of Christ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:57:31 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <Jan.26.03.12.44.1993.13821@athos.rutgers.edu> russ@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>CLH> The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) is the liberal wing of

>Just a point of clarification, the Restoration Movement eventually 
I would also like to know more about them. the reason being is that i've
been studying with them, and one person invited me to church there. it
was nice, but they seemed to be so interested in gaining numbers
(members).  the guy that's talking to me won't let up on this asking me
to his church. also, the chruch's name is Indianapolis Church of Christ,
but when I first asked him where he goes, he mentioned Disciples of
Christ. Which one is it? or are some chruches still affiliated with each
other?

IMHO, though it seems to me that if they wanted to espouse Christian
unity, they wouldn't try to "pull" other people out of their own
churches.  this seems like spreading disunity.  I also think this guy's
trying too hard. :) (don't get me wrong, though, I love him, and do know
he's  dong all he knows to win members (maybe souls, the  church almost
seems like their trying to meet a quota or something.) please, someone
who has had some experience with this church or is a member, explain the
rationale behind the "badgering".

>Russ Paden
>Internet: Russ@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
>Bitnet: Russ@ukanvax
-jon madison
jmadison@etsun.tech.iupui.edu
From: cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Post)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Could you comment on this please?
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:35:38 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO

ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter G. Trei) writes:
>    4. The KKK is/was the "military arm" of the Freemasons.
>    First, the Klan originated after the Civil War, and has been
>restricted to the US (and then mainly to the old Confederacy).
>Freemasonry is international, and predates the Klan by at least 200
>years.
>    Second, the KKK preaches intolerance and hatred, a total
>antithesis of the Masonic virtues of friendship, morality and
>brotherly love.


My father is a mason (Scotish Rite).  The masons to not allow blacks
in their organization.  This is racist, not the virtues of friendship,
morality, and brotherly love.  Why can't blacks become masons?  (And
please don't give me the Jim Crowe reasoning of they can have a
separate and equal organization.)
From: chuck@ssd.kodak.com (Charles S. Collins 726-9461)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Handmaid (was "I feel threatened...")
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:51:34 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak

>The Handmaid's Tale is the story of the Republic of Giliad
>as seen through the eyes of one of the handmaids.  I would 
>recommend it, at least to see why some people are freightnened
>of the rise of right wing fundamentalism.


I would also recommend a new book by Virginia Mollenkott: "Sensuous 
Spirituality: Out from Fundamentalism."  In the second chapter she
contrasts Offred's story (from "Handmaid's Tale") with that of the Virgin
Mary (the handmaid of God).  Interesting reading!

Warning:  If you are offended by inclusive language, particularly 
references to God as female, beware.  Ms. Mollenkott intentionally
refers to God as female to balance the deeply engrained notion
that God is male.  Personally, I think she is right in doing so.
-- 
Chuck Collins				Product Software Engineering
chuck@pixel.kodak.com			Eastman Kodak Company
(716)726-9461				901 Elmgrove Road
					Rochester, NY  14653-5811