From: talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:48:27 GMT

In article <2266@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

>	So, you ADMIT that GURPS fails the test for universality.
>I've PLAYED GURPS, and its design is inherently biased towards/away
>from particular things. It's made to be, as its proponents often point
>out with glee, "realistic". That means that it can't do Superheroes
>as well as a straight SH game, nor any other truly heroic genre.

Well, no superhero game is going to accomodate a sci-fi campaign, or a spy
campaign, or really anything else besides the genre for which it was created.
GURPS was created to work in *any* genre equally well. And from my roleplaying
experience, GURPS and otherwise, it does. The rules in the Basic Set have no
context for which they are to be applied, eg. the Hero "system", so you can 
paint the mechanics any particular color you wish. 

>	Moreover, making certain kinds of characters which, in PLAY,
>would be perfectly balanced, can't be done with the same number of points.
>The Strength sink is a prime example...
>	GURPS is the BASIC of gaming; it CAN do anything, and has provisions
>to do so, but it can't do ANYTHING as WELL as a specific game designed for
>the genre.

The rule systems for a given game do not *do* anything. The action and the 
modifications are done by the GM and the players. Nobody plays the rules for
a RPG verbatim; GURPS merely minimizes the work the GM would be doing with 
any game he/she bought. 
  In practice, I must say that GURPS rulebooks far exceed the quality of 
genre-specific games, for the simple reason -- which has already been stated --
that all the *rules* rules are in the Basic Set, freeing up the worldbook to
accomodate rules additions and alterations as well as provide a substantial
amount of background and "atmosphere" material. The only genres of gaming in 
which I do not prefer GURPS are Paranoia and Teenagers from Outer Space, and
SJG even has something like these in Toon!

>	What it REALLY means is that if you want a fully rounded 
>universal campaign, you have to spend your entire college fund in
>order to get the stuff you want.

What's a "universal campaign"? I usually stick to one genre at a time. 
   GURPS books are pricey, I'll grant you that, but (1) you'd spend that much
money on a genre-specific game anyway, and (2) GURPS worldbooks already have
the rules taken care of elsewhere, so the genre books can "stretch out". And
if there is any whining about the cost of the Basic Set, remember that only 
the GM needs the whole book (which is only $20 (US) anyway in softcover); 
the players can use the entirely adequate PLayer's Book, which runs a paltry
$7-$10. At least with GURPS, it's money well spent.

>	450 spells a vast selection? Rolemaster's original release had
>four times that many. GURPS is for Girly-men.

Another thing about GURPS is that you can lift stuff from other games and
translate them into GURPS. What I would do is borrow a friend's Rolemaster
books and take all the spells that are lacking (I don't think any player of
mine would bitch about having "only" 450 spells, but...), and stick 'em 
into GURPS. Presto!

>	ALl those skills and advantages work precisely the same way.
>Flavorless. There's no difference IN GAME between casting a fireball,
>shooting a gun, controlling a mind, or flying a  ship. That was one
>of my major gripes about Spacemaster's PSI system -- they took their
>spell system and just taped  the word Psion over it.
>	Things which are different in KIND should be different in FEEL,
>or else just ignore the existence of mechanics and go all out roleplay.
>Don't compromise.

The rules for most games will not even get you a tenth of the way there 
as far as creating atmosphere -- "Chill" and "Paranoia" may be exceptions.
As a GM, *I* am responsbile for creating the suspension for disbelief. The
moment I have to rely on the rules to do so, in *any* game, it's back to 
GM school for me. 

>	Problem is people who can get, say, an 18 INT (not difficult in
>a fairly powerful campaign) and then can do EVERYTHING AT ONCE. Hell,
>their DEFAULT skills are as good as someone who was taught the subject.
>Even if they have no experience in the field.

It is hard to get an 18 in *any* attribute in GURPS. You have to spend a
*hell* of a lot of points, or take some god-awful disadvantage. And yes, 
this is realistic -- 18 on the bell curve for 3d6 would correspond to about
the upper 2% or something like that. People who are *that* smart (using IN
for an example) generally *can* do lots of things, that or have serious 
disadvantages (Stephen Hawking, for example). And generally experience in 
the field of the particular skill is required to obtain the skill. GM's 
can earmark character points; for example if a player spends a whole adven-
ture trying to survive in the jungle, the GM can say "OK, you can only spend
these character points you got on Jungle Survival skill." It's not like,
*poof* you're a nuclear physicist or anything.

>	No, the inventors assumed that the average GURPS player would want
>to  play certain kinds of characters. Consider the fact that in a high-tech
>campaign, it is virtually suicide (pointwise) to make a physically strong
>character. This indicates that the designers expected high-tech players
>to avoid anyone with physical prowess greater than, say, the average couch
>potato (e) .

In GURPS, in *any* genre, the point costs for attributes are the same! Creating
Arnold Schwarzenegger will be *difficult*! It's supposed to be that way. Just
like creating somebody who is *really good* at anything is difficult (in real
life or in GURPS). 

>	The much touted "balance" of GURPS is one of its major flaws.
>Even in the books and movies that draw us into these games, the main
>characters weren't all built on the same scale. Some people are lucky
>and have it all. Others just have some things they do DAMN well.

Yeah, but only in silly movies and books are there characters who can 
do amazing things without having disadvantages to counterbalance them. 
This is what the balance part is about -- it's *not* about having every
character start out on the same level. 

Just how many times have you actually *played* (or ran) GURPS, anyway? 

- Robert






--
Robert N. Talbert    		  | "I saw what cannot be seen
Mathematics Department  	  |  She spoke to me
Vanderbilt University		  |  'Take what you've learned, set it free
talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu |   See what you'll see.' " --- King's X
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