HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ren@hopper.ACS.Virginia.EDU (Karen Prestemon)
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Organization: UVA. FREE Public Access UNIX! 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 08:49:53 GMT

In article <C15HG3.8G0@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>
>What most schools do is look at a number of factors...SAT, grades, IQ (do
>they?), interest in hobbies, etc. and look for a pattern.  If a kid has
>a low IQ but gets good grades, scores high on other standardized tests,
>is involved in hobbies, and the like, it is clear he is a "good risk".
>On the other hand, if he has a low IQ, low test scores, low grades, etc.
>then that does indicate something doesn't it?
>
>One thing I have always thought about the IQ score is why it's on such a
>wide scale (I know why historically, but all the same...).  It seems that
>since the test is so imprecise, a 1-10 or even 1-5 scale would be
>more appropriate.  It's like measuring the distance to new York in millimeters
>when your yardstick is a mile long and only accurate to within 30%.
>
Colleges do not use the IQ test for admittance. 

The IQ test was developed as a placement test, and can't adequately
measure intelligence.  Nothing can, really, which is why its is so
"imprecise."  Basically, it tests knwoledge of white culture in
America, which is more or less what the SAT does on the verbal half
of the exam.

Someone posted that tests need to be standardized in this country, and
I wanted to respond to that.  the SATs, PSATs, DATs, SRAs, etc, ARE
all standardized.  The problem is that there is no national
standard curriculum.  Scores on these testscan't really be compared
to one another unless the children invloved are learning the same
basic things at the same time.  States control schools, counties
control schools, special interest groups control schools, and yet everyone
is expected to measure up to one another in precisely the same way.
If I took an urban child and a suburban child and compared their
SATs, people would go nuts saying that the urban child came from
a crappy school district with no money and an underpriveleged
background, and he just hadn't had a fair chance at an education.
If you argue that this is true, then you would have to throw thwe
SAT out the window.

BTW, the Washington Post just ran an article a couple weeks ago
describing the number of ways in which kids cheat on the SATs.  Not
only is it easy, but I have seen some people actually do some
of the things they described.  The stakes are getting so high in
the SAT game, it is frightening, because too much importance is
placed on something that shouldn't be counted for much at all.

--Karen
From: kennedym@coe.drexel.edu (Kelly Murphy)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Fellowship Announcement
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:37:03 GMT
Organization: Drexel University (COE)
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1a2

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
From: elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:04:09 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1993Jan23.174258.12271@athena.mit.edu>, by solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky):
> In article <00727506934@elgamy.jpunix.com>, elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
> |> Actually, teachers tend to teach to the level of the MOST capable child in
> |> the class. There's plenty of research confirming this, and looking at my

> I would like a reference on this research. What you have posted above is
> entirely false with only a relatively small number of exceptions. >90% of a
> teacher's time is wasted for the smarter students.

Probably the most comprehensive study of schooling done in the last 20
years was done by John Goodlad et. al. and published as _A Place Called
School: A Report on A Study of Schooling_. For a more recent review of the
research, see the bibliography of Jennie Oakes' book _Keeping Track_
(ignore the book -- it's not a particularly rational argument against
tracking).

As for your assertation that ">90% of a teacher's time is wasted for the
smarter students", I really don't see how you can come up with such a
number. Maybe you just have smarter students than mine, I dunno. I do know
that I don't waste my swifter students' time with busywork. Right now, for
example, my swiftest math student is learning about geometric figures and
finding area, perimeter, etc. on the days when the other students are
practicing their multiplication skills (Yes, Henry, I agree that all this
emphasis on manual calculation is unwarranted, BUT THE STATE MANDATES THAT
I DO IT). That extra practice for the slower students may seem like
"busywork" to you, but I've found that it's absolutely necessary in order
to get them to the point where they can solve a problem easily without
going into total brain freeze. So it goes.

The point being that it is *NOT* necessary to short-change the swifter
students in order to meet the needs of the slower students. It's just
easier that way, because it makes the classroom look more like what laymen
think of as a classroom. Some times, alas, my classroom looks more like a
three-ring circus...

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.jpunix.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Xref: sparky misc.education:6143 sci.edu:1490
From: laura@TASVAX.NSWSES.NAVY.MIL
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Rereading 20 times (was: Branding kids)
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:48:30 GMT
Reply-To: laura@TASVAX.NSWSES.NAVY.MIL
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center, Port Hueneme Division

In article <00728020029@elgamy.jpunix.com>, elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
[Stuff deleted.]
>The sad part is that these kids' prior teachers DID spoon-feed them. So I'm
>not just having to teach them this stuff. I'm having to de-program them
>from a mentality of learned helplessness. They're accustomed to having the
>teacher do everything for them. I refuse to do that. They hate it. So it
>goes.

Stick to your guns, Eric.  You are doing these children a great service.
They will admire you for it later in life, even if none of them comes back
to tell you so.

Laura
laura@tasvax.nswses.navy.mil                      I speak only for myself.
PHD/NSWC, Port Hueneme, CA  USA
Mom to Maryrose Nadine McGovern - born 8-5-92
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:01:26 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <C15z8v.LpJ@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, by hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin):
> In article <00727327078@elgamy.jpunix.com> elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>>There you go. How to get basic performance out of these kids, based upon
>>first-hand experience.
>
>>Now, producing Rhodes Scholars out of them... that's another question
>>altogether. But I assumed that we were just talking about how to teach them
>>the basic skills needed to succeed in this society -- something that the
>>schools currently aren't doing.
>
> Why not producing Rhodes Scholars?  The tenements of the first part of this
> century, and the current Asian refugees may not produce Rhodes Scholars, but
> they did not seem to have much of a problem in producing scholars.

First of all: the current Asian refugees hitting Houston are primarily
uneducated peasants, and their children are doing about as well in the
Houston public schools as the great-great-grandchildren of ex-slaves and
the children of ex-Mexicans. I.e., not too well. The myth of the
super-achiever Asian children is just that, a myth. It holds true with
Asian children whose parents were originally of middle-class merchant
background, but not true of Asians from peasant backgrounds.

I would like to produce Rhodes Scholars as much as anybody. However, when I
see 6th graders who cannot read, I prefer to think that perhaps we'd be
better first getting those 6th graders reading at the 6th grade level, and
only THEN start thinking about producing Rhodes Scholars.

Besides, we really don't know how to produce Rhodes Scholars. The basic
techniques for producing adequately-educated people are well know, but
nobody really knows how to teach creativity or flexibility or how to be an
effective thinker.

Still, we know how to give ghetto kids an acceptable education despite
their supposed "handicap". We ought to do it.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.jpunix.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:42:58 GMT

In article <00727506934@elgamy.jpunix.com>, elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
|> From article <C0yEJI.L4@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, by hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin):
|> > In article <1j5m5vINNpr9@mojo.eng.umd.edu> clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
|> >>>In article <1993Jan14.150343.21477@wam.umd.edu>, kckbxr@next08pg2.wam.umd.edu (Robin of Locksley) writes:
|> >
|> >> With this in mind, my question is:  If magnet schools discriminate and/or
|> >> promote elitism, then don't they (in effect) also contribute directly to
|> >> the problem of increasing the lower-class community by preventing them
|> >> access to available educational resources?
|> >
|> > To a large extent, this is the case now, because of the insistence of teaching
|> > to nearly the least capable child in the class.  The educational resource being
|> 
|> Actually, teachers tend to teach to the level of the MOST capable child in
|> the class. There's plenty of research confirming this, and looking at my
|> own teaching, I find it to be true. I don't expect my less capable children
|> to understand everything that my most capable children understand, but for
|> most subjects that's not a problem. After a good lesson I might ask my more
|> capable children to write a paragraph describing how the rotation of the
|> earth causes days and nights, while for my less capable children I might
|> merely ask them to draw a picture which shows how the Earth moves around
|> the sun. I.e., they all get the same lesson, but the less capable children
|> are expected to have only "gotten" the high points while the more capable
|> kids are expected to have remembered more of the details. (Before Henry
|> flames me -- the kid who I asked to draw the picture was autistic and
|> nearly non-verbal, and it was unrealistic to expect him to "get" all the
|> details).

I would like a reference on this research. What you have posted above is
entirely false with only a relatively small number of exceptions. >90% of a
teacher's time is wasted for the smarter students.

Jason W. Solinsky
Xref: sparky misc.education:6137 sci.edu:1484
From: elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:47:09 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Rereading 20 times (was: Branding kids)
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1993Jan24.001401.13638@jlc.mv.com>, by john@jlc.mv.com (John Leslie):
>    After you get out of school, the ticket to success is the attitude
> that you're not going to *let* any problem defeat you.  Your most
> effective problem-solving tool will be an ability to extract the
> necessary pieces of information from the book where you *know* they
> reside.

The fun part is trying to teach kids how to do this. They're fighting me
tooth and nail on this one :-). I persist, however. "Mr. Green, I can't
find the answer for this one!"  "Okay, let's see, the question is 'What are
the largest and smallest planets?'. First, which chapter do we need to look
at? Chapter 3 on 'Mass and accelleration'? Chapter 4 on 'The Planets'? or
Chapter 5 on 'The Human Body'? Chapter 4? Okay. Let's look at the pictures
and picture captions on Chapter 4 first, then look at the big black section
headers if we don't find our answer there. Hmm. Would it be in this picture
that says 'Rotation and revolution of planets'? Would it be in this picture
that says 'The size of planets'? Would it be in this picture that says 'The
satellites of Jupiter'? Hmm, you say it'd be in the picture 'The size of
planets'? Okay. Look at that table. The answer is in there."
    "I can't do it!"
    "Read the table."
    "I can't do it!"

    At that point I leave the battle -- I can tell when the kid is just
trying to get out of something. The consequences for not getting to work
are clear in my classroom. I'll give you two warnings to get to work. On
the third warning I send you to timeout. If you go to timeout, you also
lose ten minutes of recess time. The kids hate to go to timeout.

It's even worse when the answer is in one of the sections. After I've
helped them narrow it down to a particular section, I say "Read this
section" then go away. The kids now know better than to bug me about it
once I go away. They still don't like it.

I don't see my job as being to spoon-feed the kids. They know how to read.
I'll help them narrow down WHERE to read, when necessary (and I'm teaching
the kids how to do that for themselves now), but I'm not going to just tell
them the answer.

The sad part is that these kids' prior teachers DID spoon-feed them. So I'm
not just having to teach them this stuff. I'm having to de-program them
from a mentality of learned helplessness. They're accustomed to having the
teacher do everything for them. I refuse to do that. They hate it. So it
goes.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.jpunix.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Xref: sparky misc.education:6060 misc.kids:33042 sci.edu:1438
From: lynnef@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Lynne Axel Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Class rankings, etc (was: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Date: 28 Jan 93 21:46:55 GMT
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.


Well, they way *my* high school worked (I graduated in 1974 from Clear Lake
High School, near Houston, Texas), was that most classes had a "regular"
rating, where an A = 4 pts down to F = 0 pts.  There were "premium" classes
that added an extra point (A = 5), and "terminal" classes, which subtracted
a point (A = 3), which were remedial, and you have to have special permission
to take them.

You could not get the additional credit for more than 3 premium classes at a
time (you could take them, but your GPA could never be higher than 4.5).
Classes such as PE and music and band, etc were all "regular" classes.
We didn't have study hall.  You were at school to learn.

--
Lynne Fitzsimmons		lynnef@tekig1.pen.tek.com

"Second star on the right and straight on till morning" - Barrie, Pan, Kirk
Xref: sparky misc.education:6058 misc.kids:33039 sci.edu:1437
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Date: 21 Jan 1993 05:34:37 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: feedback.eng.umd.edu
Originator: clin@feedback.eng.umd.edu


In article <1993Jan20.215406.18366@clpd.kodak.com>, staffan@ca.serum.kodak.com (Kenneth Staffan (x37507)) writes:
[part of article deleted]
>It's funny that this topic has come up just now.  About a week ago, one
>of my 21-month-old son's preschool teachers pulled me aside.  She told me that
>she thought he was gifted in languages, because his vocabularly is at the level
>of the 3-4 year old class, rather than the toddler class he is in.  I don't
>know what she must have thought of me!  I told her that I thought all of
>the kids were gifted in certain aspects, etc.  She corrected me, and said
>that no, this was special, and I should get him tested, nurture the 
>skill, challenge him, etc.  Well, except for getting him tested, we _are_
>nurturing (hopefully) _all_ of his skills, and (hopefully) challenging him
>in _all_ ways (to whatever degree he leads).  I hope we challenge any of 
>our kids to be their best, without having to label them, or compare them
>to others (though I know that is nearly inevitable in our society).  Both my
>wife and I were pretty late bloomers, so we know that a child doesn't have
>to be identified as gifted early in life, to be happy, successful, and 
>continually improving himself/herself later in life.

    I wonder if people have done studies about how kids in non-accelerated
classes are taught.    Do teachers decide it's not worth pushing them?
Do they put down the students (you would think this wouldn't happen)?
Is the attitude better toward so-called gifted children?    We have
many teachers across the US, some (like Mr. Green) who have found solutions
to "problem" students and are able to deal with these students, in what
seems to be a productive manner.   Yet, is this information readily
available to other people?   I don't know exactly what an education
degree provides, but it would be nice to have some of the ideas of
education delivered to others teachers, and perhaps even to parents.

    It should be that all parents (if they can) should try to nurture
their children's talents, even when these are not readily apparent, but
what may be needed is some sort of guide to this process from others
who have been successful in motivation.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
From: mcdonald1720@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Help: I need informatin
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:49:50 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

I need to know if anyone out there has heard of or attended NECC--National
Education Conference on Computing.  If so, could anyone tell me of the kinds of
topics covered and/or the date of the next conference.

Thank You

John M McDonald
Mcdonald1720@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: houck@stsci.edu
Subject: CHADWICK University???
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:16:16 GMT

Has anyone heard of Chadwick University?

I recently got info in the mail about their correspondence MBA courses.
I'm already in grad school, but I was rather curious about them having 
never heard of them myself.

Would anyone really accept an MBA you had aquired from them without thinking
you odd? 
Not intending to offend anyone if it is a reputable school, but since I do not
know I thought I would throw it out there.


Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Rereading 20 times (was: Branding kids)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 16:32:14 GMT

In article <1jt65nINNqtl@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1993Jan24.001401.13638@jlc.mv.com>, john@jlc.mv.com (John Leslie) writes:
|> >
|> >   Ohmigosh, two giants with one blow...
|> >
|> >   Sorry, Herman and Jason, you're both wrong.  (And if you don't mend
|> >your ways, Jason, you'll end up like Herman.  ;^)

Does anybody know when this one appeared? I can't seem to find the original.

JWS
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: pdaunno@Ingres.COM (Paul Daunno)
Subject: Studying Suggestions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: studying suggestions
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:54:36 GMT

Hi,

I just started taking a course last night called "The Rise of Europe".
I have never been much of a history buff and have struggled in the past
with these types of courses.  The texts are filled with facts, etc. and
the class lectures are too.  I'd like some ideas as to how to learn all
of this information.  How much detail is really neccessary in terms of
exams?

Any and all ideas, tips, tricks, whatever is GREATLY appreciated.

Paul Daunno
Ingres, An ASK Group 
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids,sci.edu
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Subject: Re: Branding kids, IQ tests, smart vs dumb (Was: Re: Seminar Program)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 20:57:14 GMT

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:


>    I wonder if people have done studies about how kids in non-accelerated
>classes are taught.    Do teachers decide it's not worth pushing them?
>Do they put down the students (you would think this wouldn't happen)?

Yes there have been, I don't have them so I can't say how 'real' they
are. but one is where a teacher was to that (and which) kids in his or
her class were LD, and another where certain kids were trouble makers,
to the suprise of the teacher [s]he was treating the 'test' cases
differently. I have also seen on TV where a teacher was observed how
mnay times she answered (raised hands from questions) boy vs girl.
She was very suprised with the results, and this was a teacher who
in her words tried to be fair.

I don't remember if there was any conclusions.

>Is the attitude better toward so-called gifted children?    We have
>many teachers across the US, some (like Mr. Green) who have found solutions
>to "problem" students and are able to deal with these students, in what
>seems to be a productive manner.

Erik [Mr. Green] time to write a book on your experiences and methods :-) ?

>Yet, is this information readily
>available to other people?   I don't know exactly what an education
>degree provides, but it would be nice to have some of the ideas of
>education delivered to others teachers, and perhaps even to parents.

From what I have been able to collect mostly about human (child)
ethology and child psy, a LOT has come out in just the last five or
so years. I have a theory but it may seem sexist. I think one factor
is that in the last ten years the percentage of women entering the
behavior and psy fields has shot up. A little of track but.....

>    It should be that all parents (if they can) should try to nurture
>their children's talents, even when these are not readily apparent, but
>what may be needed is some sort of guide to this process from others
>who have been successful in motivation.

I don't think 'can' is is the word. Example, I feel very strongly that
if the (kid I was with this summer) mothers would have just given up
some of her 'quality time' and sat with her son, even if she just read
a paper back or something, the kid would have done (better on) his
homework. She did not need to know the subject. The kid would have least
felt that someone esle was willing to 'suffer'. Just an idea.

-pete
Pete Lancashire
petel@sequent.com
Newsgroups: misc.education