From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: some gods are _not_ creaters of all things, apparently
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:01:16 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

In article <adams.713105930@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>><adams.712847954@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>>><adams.712335175@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>>>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
...
>>Omniscient...  Hmmm...  There are scriptures in Genesis (I'm at work right
>>now so I don't have a bible) where Adam and Eve *hide* from god, and he
>>asks them why they hid from him.  Doesn't sound omniscient.
>
>Ever hear of a rhetorical question?  Compare this verse (Gen 3:9) with the
>questioning of Cain (Gen 4:9).  God knows what has happened, but challenges
>man to admit it.

In the second example I can see the possiblity of a setup, yes I agree.
But not in the first example.  Also, can you tell me who god was talking
to when Adam and Eve heard him coming?  And, not to change the subject,
but if Adam and Eve were truly the mother and father of the entire race,
then who did Cain marry?  In 4:17, after god banishes him, Cain goes off
and gets married.  Who did he marry?  His sister?

>>When Jesus is cruxified he supposedly looks up and begs forgiveness for
>>his executiioners.  Why would god be mad that they executed his "son"?  He
>>supposedely would know this.  Heck, it was *required* that they execute
>>him, else there wouldn't be a salvation.
>That doesn't mean they can't be forgiven?  Christ showed that we are, no
>matter what the circumstances, and whatever happens, to forgive those who
>do an injustice against us.
>

I wasn't commenting on the forgiveness aspect but the anger aspect.  Your
god *ordained* that Jesus must die.  He set it up that way, on purpose.
Why would an omnipotent being do something that he *knows* will just make
him angry later?

>>In another viewpoint of his cruxifiction he supposedly crys out to his
>>"father", "Why have you forsaken me?".  Is this because Jesus missed the
>>memo where his earthly death was required?  (I bring this up because many
>>Christians believe Jesus *WAS* god, as in *the exact same being*)
>No, not at all.  Jesus knew that the Father (remember the Trinity?) was in
>control of the situation, and Jesus would obey.  Look at what transpired in
>Gethsemenee.  Jesus asked that the outcome be changed, but bowed to the
>Father's will.  No contradiction.  God, the Father, left His son to die an
>ignoble death.

This doesn't explain why Jesus is apparently unware of the reasons behind
his death.

>>Also, your god seems surprised by the amount of evil in the world just
>>before he floods the entire globe.
>
>Not at all.  He was grieved that men were doing the amount of evil that
>they were.  Even though God knew in advance, that doesn't mean he wasn't
>saddened and offedned.

It seems to me that he should get it right the second time, but he didn't.

>>Many Christians seem unwilling to admit that their god perpetrated heinous
>>acts against innocents which put Hitler to shame.  They shout "God can do
>>no wrong.  He is just no matter what he does."  But it doesn't make it so.
>Perhaps in your opinion.  I haven't been unwilling at all.  

I qualified my statement.  I didn't mean you specifically.

>                                                            Yes, from the
>perspective of men, these acts were despicable.  But, and I know you refuse
>to accept this reasoning, God can do as He pleases.  He has no requirement
>to justify Himself to us.  Look at what happened when Job asked God to do
>exactly this...

Once again, "might makes right".

...
>>>Since He's also your creator, and is sovereign, you belong to Him, and He
>>>may do with you as He pleases.  You may not like it, but that is the
>>>Scriptural witness.
>
>>In *your* opinion and belief.
>
>No, that IS the Scriptural witness.  You can deny the truth of Scripture.
>You can deny the existence of God.  You cannot deny the witness of the
>Scripture.  If you want to say it was all made up out of whole cloth, fine.

I see no evidence to support the contentions of the bible.  With all the
errors in the bible it hardly qualifies as reliable.

>I don't think so, and the witness is fairly clear.  Isaiah 45 is an
>excellent chapter to explain this, along with Job 38, 39, 40, 41, 42.
>Extremely clear witness.  

Extremely clear second and third hand witness written down in some cases
*years* after the events in question.  I can find any number of science
fiction books that will give you clear witness to events that *never
happened*.

>Once again, you don't have to believe in the book, or what it stands for.
>But it *IS* clear that this is what it says.

I agree that the bible has statements in it that describe a god and state
that he is all-powerful.  It also contains statements that describe this
god as being jealous, temperamental, forgetful, homocidal, and the creator
of evil.  All the fun elements of the human race.

>>>Once again, you don't have to believe any of this.  I would like you to,
>>>but it is not up to me...it's up to you...and in the end, up to God.
>
>>Hey, this is one of the best conversations I've had on the net about
>>religion, Christianity specifically.  Thanks for the replies.
>
>You're welcome.  It's been a challenge for me, too.  Thanx yourself.

It's tough to keep up on this thread though.  This damn work-stuff gets in
the way. ;-)


Gordon
-- 
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of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.politics.bush