From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: America & Xianity
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:48:39 GMT
Organization: fnal.fnal.gov

In article <Jan.25.00.35.28.1993.4448@athos.rutgers.edu>
johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>>One must either live by God's authority or live by human reason -man can not
>>serve 2 masters.
>
>Ignoring the fact that litterally everyone DOES server >2 masters (just
>not all to the same degree), I'll just assert (just as baldfacedly)
>
>One must either live by human reason, or human tyranny. God does
>not rule; when his self-proclaimed servants do, it quickly
>becomes human tyranny, even if it once was human reason.
>
>I'll take reason thank you.
>---
Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you, as I've been flat on my back
for a couple of daze.  Anyway, I'll try and dig up stuff, quotations and ref. 
that show that the founding fathers definitively laid the foundations of this
nation on *CHRISTIAN* principles and precepts.  This is easy.  The hard part is
for you to accept it.  It will also be hard for you to understand that the
reason that they did it was so that they had a strong enough base to allow for
"freedom of religion."  Where else in the world or in history, other than
post-reformation west, has there been such a tolerance (and discussion with)
other religions?  Perfectly, of course not because nothing man does is ever
perfect.  Yet, we have lived side by side for a while.  A lot of stuff done in
the name of Christianity sucks.  Whether its the inquisitions, the crusades, or
what took place here with the Indians or even with slave trades.  But those who
"walked their talk" saw an end to the tyranny of one religion over another, or
saw an end to the slave trade (Wilberspoon (?) in England).  

Dan, please understand that the FF (Founding Fathers) plainly stated what they
meant in the Constitution.  In US Supreme court cases up to the turn of the
century, it was understood exactly what the FF meant.  It is only as "humanism"
redefined the understandings that we saw confusion and down right
disinformation.  For instance, the statement "separation between church &
state."  It was, of course, not written into the constitution, but is found in
a letter of then president T. Jefferson.  The US Supreme Court up to the turn
of the century used that letter to define the 1st amendment.  In the 50's that
same court divorced the phrase "separation between church & state" from the
rest of the letter that explain exactly what T.J. meant.  Now it is hard to
find a full length rendition of that letter and the liberal left has so
ingrained this term that there are few people today that think that it *ISN'T*
in the 1st A.  Who was it that said that if you tell a lie long enough, pretty
soon you'll start to believe it.

I'll get back to you with those FF quotes & Xian foundations, but here are some
later day ones that may be of interest:

Herbert Hover: "We are indebted to the BOOK of books for our national ideas and
institutions.  Their preservation rests in adhering to its principles."

Woodrow Wilson: "When you have read the Bible, you will know that it is the
Word of God, because you will have found it the key to your own heart, your own
happiness, and your own duty. . .I beg that you will read it and find this out
for yourselves..."

-------

T. Huxley:  "The Bible has been the Magna Carte of the poor and of the
oppressed down to modern times.  No State has had a constitution in which the
interests of the people are so largely taken into account; in which the duties,
so much more than the privileges of rulers are insisted upon, as that drawn up
for Israel in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.  Nowhere is the fundamental truth,
that the welfare of the state, in the long run, depends upon the righteousness
of the citizen, so strongly laid down.  The Bible is the most democratic book
in the world."

Pretty strong words from an atheist! (Or was that his son?  I don't remember)

--Rex

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct -Disraeli