HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thumper@engin.umich.edu (Bob Topping)
Subject: Re: Edmund Fitzgerald: (Final Voyage)  
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 02:19:41 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

  I hope this is informative; there wasn't much response from my other
postings, but I'm a historian and I like to be complete.  :)  

THE FINAL VOYAGE OF THE S.S. EDMUND FITZGERALD, NOVEMBER 1975.

Note:  All times are local times, and in a 24 hour format.

  0730, 9 November 1975; the Fitzgerald arrives at Superior, Wisconsin,
for her last trip of the season, to take a load of taconite pellets to
refineries in Detroit.  1430, 9 November; loading finished, the Fitzgerald
teams up with the Arthur M. Anderson, also downbound from Indiana to 
Detroit, for the trip.  By 0100, the Fitz was steaming south of Isle Royale,
with a northwesterly heading.  0700, she cleared Isle Royale, coming about
from northwest to westerly.  By 1300, sailing south-southwest, passing
just to the east of Michipicoten Island, just above (north) of the Six-
Fathom Shoals.  1520, "Threads the Needle", passing directly south of
Michipicoten Island, and north of Caribou Island.  At this point, she
was very close to the Six-Fathom Shoals, an area about 36 feet deep, where
she MAY have scraped the shoal, and possibly recieved a tear to one of the 
ballast tanks.  Shortly after 1520, she reported a slight list, the loss
of two ballast tank covers, and a fence railing.  Captain McSorley rep-
orted to Captain Jesse Cooper of the Anderson that he was checking down 
the Fitz's speed in order that the Anderson might catch up.  At 1710,
the Fitz was contacted to advise of another carft coming out of Whitefish
Bay.  When asked how his problems were, McSorley replied, "We are holding
our own."  These were the last words heard from the Edmund Fitzgerald.
At 1715, the "Pride of the American Fleet", the flagship of the Oglebay-
Norton Company, the Queen of the Lakes, disappeared from the radar screens
of the Arthur M. Anderson.

Some sources--

Hemming, Robert J.  "Gales of November; the Sinking of the Edmund 
	Fitzgerald".  Chicago: Contemporary Books, Inc., 1981.

Moss, Chuck.  "The Day the Lakes Became a Frozen Hell".  Michigan
	Magazine, 6 November 1983, p. 17.

Stonehouse, Frederick.  "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald".  Updated ed.
	Autrain, Michigan: Avery Color Studios, August 1982.


  If anyone would like any more information or sources, please feel free
to contact me!

--Bob.


-- 
@ "Our lives are better left to chance; +       PLEASE E-Mail to:           @
@  I could have missed the pain, but    +  bob.topping@um.cc.umich.edu      @
@  I'd have had to miss the dance."     +  phy_astrclub@emunix.emich.edu    @
@       -- Garth Brooks, The Dance.     +     ** RETURN OUR HURON! **       @
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: wtodd@cmptrc.lonestar.org (Todd Davis)
Subject: Edmond Fitzgerald
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:30:41 GMT
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX


Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: thumper@engin.umich.edu (Bob Topping)
Subject: Re: Edmund Fitzgerald
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 02:58:33 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor


One of my favorite topics-- Great Lakes history and the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Some facts about the Fitz:

  -Built in 1958 as hull #301 at the Great Lakes Engineering Works,
   River Rouge, Michigan.  Cost in 1958: $8,400,000; a replacement
   vessel would have cost $20,000,000 plus in 1976.  

  -Launched 8 June 1958.

  -Length: 729 ft.  

  -Gross tonnage: 13,632 tons.

  -Largest ship on the Lakes until 1971.

  -Engine: 7,000 hp steam turbine, max speed 16 mph.

  -In 1964 became the first Great Lakes vessel to carry more than 1,000,000
   gross tons of ore through the Soo Locks.  In 1968, she carried 1,200,000
   tons to break her own record.

  -Greatest single trip load: 27,402 tons.

  -Final load: 26,116 long tons of taconite, a low grade iron ore, in 
   pellets.  This is equal to 58,499,840 lbs of ore, enough to make
   about 7,500 cars.

  -Final resting place: 530 feet below the surface of Lake Superior,
   46 deg, 59.9 min North lat.; 85 deg, 06.6 min West long.


  If there's interest, I'll post the names of the crew and the account I
have of the Fitz's last trip.

  --Bob.

 
-- 
@ "Our lives are better left to chance; +       PLEASE E-Mail to:           @
@  I could have missed the pain, but    +  bob.topping@um.cc.umich.edu      @
@  I'd have had to miss the dance."     +  phy_astrclub@emunix.emich.edu    @
@       -- Garth Brooks, The Dance.     +     ** RETURN OUR HURON! **       @
From: dougs@bugman.EBay.Sun.COM (Doug Sawyer)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Porcupine Mtns
Date: 19 Nov 1992 18:55:11 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dougs@bugman.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bugman.ebay.sun.com

I must say Porcupine Mtns are a must.  I benn there a few times.  The next time 
will be for backpacking.   That is if I ever get out of this garbage state.

Just watch out for bears if you doing a pack trip.

Doug 

---
--
" Agian I tell you, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
  needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God "

	The Art of Noise " IN VISIBLE SILENCE "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------			     
 Doug Sawyer        							      
 USOPS Process Engineering                                                  
 SUN MICROSYSTEMS COMPUTER CORPORATION, MILPITAS, CALIFORNIA USA            
 Voice: ( 408 ) 276-7945                                                       
 Page:  ( 408 ) 989-1428                                                        
 E-Mail: dougs@bugman.EBay.Sun.COM                           

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
From: prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts)
Subject: Re: surfing in Lake Superior?
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:35:44 GMT

In article <If19mLy00WBMM==mUr@andrew.cmu.edu> cs4v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher Ryan Stengel) writes:
>Hey, I was wondering if somewhere I might be able to find the
>lyrics to "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald".  It is my understanding
>that it contains a line about Whitefish Bay (My hometown!)
>

Well, it does, but I'm pretty sure it refers to Whitefish Bay, the bay,
not Whitefish Bay, the town. The ship was only 15 minutes from the
safety of the bay when it went down.
From: bwehr@eccdb1.pms.ford.com (M. Bruce Wehr)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Edmund Fitzgerald: (Final Voyage)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 19:31:15 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Co.
Reply-To: wehr@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccdb1.pms.ford.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Bob Topping (thumper@engin.umich.edu) wrote:
: with a northwesterly heading.  0700, she cleared Isle Royale, coming about
              ^^^^
: from northwest to westerly.  By 1300, sailing south-southwest, passing
            ^^^^    ^^^^                                   ^^^^

    Forgive my questioning, but shouldn't these references be
    "east?" I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm honestly curious.
    I don't have a map handy to check it out - these statements
    could very well be accurate. They just don't agree with my
    intuitive expectations.

--
             \ Bruce Wehr (wehr%dptc.decnet@srlvx0.srl.ford.com) /            
*--------------\   Ford Motor Company - Electronics Division   /--------------*
 \ Electronics Technical Center - Powertrain Electronic Controls Engineering /
   *-- 17000 Rotunda Drive, Room B360, Dearborn, MI  48121 (313)248-5530 --*
Xref: sparky alt.great-lakes:857 mi.misc:753 rec.backcountry:8975
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes,mi.misc,rec.backcountry
Subject: Little Presque Isle
Date: 18 Nov 1992 06:16:01 GMT
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.msen.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Last time I called home my mom was saying that there were some (evil)
developers trying to turn Little Presque Isle (between Marquette and Big
Bay) into some kind of civilized campground.  The locals who are none
too happy about the thought that RVs might start to encroach on a
perfectly good wilderness area have organized some to try to stop this.

I'll try to get some details - Steve, Gary, any work from MQT on current
status?  I think the DNR actually owns the land, having had it transferred
to them from Cleveland Cliffs in exchange for land that's now a tailings
basin.  Before that one of the early settlers owned it.

Don't particularly want to comprehend the thought of going home to the
U.P. and seeing some suburbanized mass culture shit RV park where there
used to be trees,

  Edward Vielmetti, vice president for research, Msen Inc. emv@Msen.com
        Msen Inc., 628 Brooks, Ann Arbor MI  48103 +1 313 998 GLOB
From: au109@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Craig Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: Re: Beer in Wisconsin
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:30:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


>CW> Jerry Apps, professor of adult and continuing education at The
>CW> University of Wisconsin (Madison, of course), has just published
>CW> a book entitled _Breweries_of_Wisconsin_.  ...  $19.95
>
>CW> The University of Wisconsin Press
>CW> (c) 1992
>
> want a copy!  Got a phone number or address for the Press?

I wrote to the University Bookstore in Madison.  They handled my
order very quickly AND subtracted any sale tax and charged no
Shipping and Handling.  The total price was just the $19.95
UPS'ed straight to my door.  Write to them at:

The University Bookstore
Mail Order Division
711 State St
Madison WI 53703

I MasterCarded it, but imagine they would also accept a check if
you're willing to wait a bit longer for the delivery.

PS--They also sell the new book published by St Martin's Press
entitled _If At All Possible, Involve a COW_ by Neil Steinberg.
It's a history of US college pranks and has a full chapter on the
University of Wisconsin during the late seventies (alas, a few
years after my graduation) where they brought the Statue of
Liberty to Lake Mendota.  The cover photo of the book is the
flock of plastic flamingoes in fron of Bascom Hall at UW-Madison.
This book's a steal at $9.95.

Both books are paperback, BTW.

Good luck, Chuck.

	=cw=
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: timothyb@crash.cts.com (Timothy Burleson)
Subject: Re: Santa Clara County, CA Judge impression?
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:50:41 PST

In article <16650017@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> wtjones@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Bill Jones) writes:
>This is for Santa Clara County.  Sorry for being sent to all.
>
>I am going to be hauled back into Family Court again this year (Thanks to
>SB101).  The previous Judge Clark (GRRRRRR) no longer is around, I guess.
>I have a different one. One of the Stewart partners. I have James Stewart.
>Does any NCP's have any impressions on his rulings.
>Thanks.

I'm new around here (to this newsgroup, anyway).  Can someone tell me more
about this SB101?  Thanks!

--Tim

Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: L671851@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: re:how do you live???
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 01:07:46 GMT

I have known men caught in the same trap here in califorina, i have
been very close myself.  one "enlightened" judge ordered a fellow
to get a second job.  the most creative solution is to get fired.
you're caught in a system without rationality or sensibility, only
some stupid damned formula that forgets there are two households
involved.  i have heard of men who acted up at work so they could
get fired, went back to court to get the support adjusted since
they had no income, got a new job, negotiated a starting salarly
at a low rate which the new employerer increased after the new rate
had been established by the court.  all this mickey mouse has noting
to do with loving your kids and wanting to do what you can for them,
its all manipulating a legal system with the cards stacked against
you to meet some unknown adgenda that drives many men to simpy
give up.  if you quit paying and they sent you to jail you'd at
least have food and shelter.  a guy in texas was able to pay for
private school for his kid, the ex got that money included in support,
then it was proven genetically it was not his kid, the court still ruled
he had to pay the $2000 + in support.  he was in jail at the time
i head the story.
   if there is a local father's rights group in your area, they may be able
to refer you to a lawyer than can help with the system, assuming of
course you have some money to pay the lawyer.  stupidest system of justice
its beem my misfortune to come across.  another option is to get the do it
yourself books on low, particularly the ones on adjusting child support. i
have used it to represent myself successfully, i did get a support redution
for visits three weeks or more, and almost got a reduction despite the
bias of the book towards stiffing the non-custodial for more support.  the
arguments can work in both directions.  choose your judge carefully though.

good luck and keep plugging, despite the money problems, do your best to
be with your kid(s), they will understand and you will be rewareded for
your effort in the long run (i have eleven more years and multiple kids
so i appreciated this situation).
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.activism,soc.women,soc.men
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Subject: Re: A proposal for reproductive freedom for BOTH sexes
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:59:24 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <Jym.16Nov1992.1526@naughty-peahen> jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer) writes:
>> I expect to get flamed to hell for this suggestion.
>
>=o= Folks, if you have to post a followup to this guy's message,
>please make sure you only post it to the newsgroups where it
>will be germane.  (Chances are it will *not* be germane to
>alt.activism, by the way.)
>    <_Jym_>

Well, I'll add to my own posting and yours.

Send email to "repro-request@ddsw1.mcs.com" for a copy of the original 
proposal if you haven't seen it.

Send email to "repro-support@ddsw1.mcs.com" with your comments if you want 
them included in a package that I intend to send to President-elect Clinton 
after January 15th containing this proposal.  If you send here, please 
include your surface address -- a concrete show of support goes a long way.

This certainly fits the "alt.activism" charter, AND alt.dads-rights!

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900] Anon. arch. (nuucp) 00:00-06:00 C[SD]T
Request file: /u/public/sources/DIRECTORY/README for instructions
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:2611 alt.child-support:3665 soc.men:19363 misc.kids:28510 misc.legal:19989
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
Subject: Re: Shared Custody Help
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:21:02 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

caryh@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Cary Hoffer) writes:

> 
> 	My question to all of you is: Are there any groups who are
> trying to get the courts to take a serious look at this data? If not,
> do any of you have any advice/desire starting one.
> 

Seems to be the season for this or something. (-:

Yes, Cary. There are. Actually, there are quite a few of them. Some are
better organized than others, some are 'official' with a charter, dues
and (wow!) a budget.

Some groups are built of energetic people who deeply desire a change in
the system. Some are built of embittered people who know little besides
vindiction. Fortunately, the majority are in the first group.

Specific to Oregon, the loudest group is probably Dad's Against Discrim-
ination (DADs). I've had both good and bad luck with this organization.
They are making inroads, but strike me as a little militant. They're in
the Portland phone book, if you'd like to check in with them.

For information and general support, FREE (Father's Rights and Equality
Exchange) is available right here in Usenet. Send email to:

                shedevil@vix.com

and introduce yourself to Anne Mitchell, the founder of FREE. In addition,
there are mailing lists you can join, and information servers you can tap.

--- 
Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA 
From: caryh@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Cary Hoffer)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 05:56:44 GMT
Subject: Shared Custody Help
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights

	I am recently divorced from my wife and four children. My visitation
schedule is pretty much the 'standard' for Oregon, every-other weekend and
one afternoon per week. During the trial process I came across many
publications which showed 'shared' custody best for the children where
both parents were activly involved with the children(as was my case).
This was the approach I took in court and as many of you probably know
was futile at best.......
	My question to all of you is: Are there any groups who are
trying to get the courts to take a serious look at this data? If not,
do any of you have any advice/desire starting one.

						Thank-you



Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,misc.legal,alt.activism,soc.women,soc.men
From: kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall)
Subject: Re: A proposal for reproductive freedom for BOTH sexes
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:49:29 GMT


I have seen, and myself posted, similar suggestions.  I think this is a good
baseline from which to start.  How do we move this into the political process?
Can people associated with different groups take this proposal to their groups
and ask them to look it over?  Mail it to president-elect Clinton?
   
 Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall

      Don't Panic!  Clinton will be our *42*nd President.
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support
Subject: Re: CSEA
Date: 15 Nov 1992 23:54:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I was going to post my two basic questions here to get further
responses from participants on this board, but I see Mr. Hoff-
meyer has already done so.  I welcome any further responses or
suggestions anyone can provide over the next week (my deadline
for this report is 11/23/92).

By the way, as I said in a message to Mr. Hoffmeyer, his
suggestions make quite a bit of sense to me, and I will pass
them along to the higher authorities in my agency, though as
(at present) only a clerk, I have no power to implement them
single-handedly.

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Cleveland Free-Net Science Fiction
& Fantasy SIG (aa396)
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:2620 misc.legal:20045 alt.activism:18906 soc.women:19737 soc.men:19418
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,misc.legal,alt.activism,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: A proposal for reproductive freedom for BOTH sexes
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:42:03 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <1992Nov16.142404.8964@ccd.harris.com> mba@controls.ccd.harris.com (Belinda Asbell) writes:
>
>[Karl's proposal for parental rights regarding children and foetuses deleted]
>
>I think it's a very sound idea. A lot of people won't go for it, unfortunately,
>but it's one of the most logical propositions I've heard.
>
>Now if only the legal system would use logic more often.....

Let's apply some pressure to make sure that it DOES use logic more often.

I have set up a mail alias "repro-support@ddsw1.mcs.com" for those who 
feel as I do on this issue.  Send mail there containing your full mailing 
address (surface mail) and a statement of your support and I will, immediately
following Bill Clinton's inauguration, send surface mail containing the full 
list of replies AND the proposal to the White House.  

Feel free to add your comments in your mail.  The system will log ALL of it.
You will receive confirmation of mail delivery to ddsw1.mcs.com.

Tell your friends about this one.  If they feel as I do on this, urge them
to support us.  SEND IN YOUR EMAIL OF SUPPORT.  Write your Congresspersons 
and Senators yourselves.  Get involved.

DO SOMETHING!

Together, we CAN change the status quo.  But we must have a voice.  The
network is an excellent voice.

If you need a copy of the original proposal as I posted it to the net a
couple of days ago, send mail to "repro-request@ddsw1.mcs.com".  The system 
will email it back to you.  The body of your mail will be ignored when sent
to this address.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900] Anon. arch. (nuucp) 00:00-06:00 C[SD]T
Request file: /u/public/sources/DIRECTORY/README for instructions
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: NCP Rights
Distribution: usa, USA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 16:16:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.133550.12463@clpd.kodak.com> mwithers@pb.serum.kodak.com (Mark Witherspoon (x37360)) writes:
>I found this posted to alt.missing-kids.  ...

>>14.  All books and brochures published by the National Center for
>>Missing and Exploited Children are available to noncustodial parents...

Do you have an address/phone-number for this center, and/or 
any information about where to get such books?

By the way, for anyone who likes to be prepared, I suggest reading
the UCCJA and the Hague Convention (mentioned in the previous posting).

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:2613 misc.legal:19996 alt.activism:18850 soc.women:19672 soc.men:19368
From: wr001b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (william e raftery)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,misc.legal,alt.activism,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: A proposal for reproductive freedom for BOTH sexes
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:46:34 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <92321.030658RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:
>One might agree or disagree with particular features of this proposal -
>but it is very constructive in that it makes a serious attempt to come
>to terms with the fact that both men and women (mothers and fathers)
>have rights and responsibilities.  Ultimately we HAVE to move from
>discussion to constructive action, don't we?
>
>Rohit Parikh

Like hell we do. To often people are content to sit and gripe and moan, and 
when push comes to shove, not DO anything. This is not to imply EVERYONE,
but enough people such that action is taken pretty much by a minority, a
minority that alot of times takes the most extreme views of an issue and
stands on the old soapbox. The one thing I have learned is that the idea of
HAVING to do ANYTHING is often a false one. Poeple are content in their
ways.

Bill
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:53:57 EST
From: Floyd L. Roberts <U5CAB@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
Subject: How do you live???

I am a father from West Viginia. The laws about child support is very precise
based on a formula that cannot be circumvented. Not to get into the specifics,
but I am going to be on the street soon ,with out a place to live because I can
't afford a car payment and rent and food and utilities. After I pay child supp
ort and her health insurance and the car payment I am left with 300 dollars per
 month. The state doesn't give a dam and I am not eligble for any assistance be
cause I make to much money. I have tried to sell the car to get out from under
the car but the payoff is higher then bluebook so knowbody wants it. I am looki
ng for an additional job but can't find anything. Does anybody know some other
options.
F.L.Roberts
U5cab@wvnvm.wvnet
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,misc.legal,alt.activism,soc.women,soc.men