HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu (Charlton Wilbur)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: FratERNITY, please
Date: 18 Dec 1992 02:13:58 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Ted et al.,

I don't care about the "would you call your country a cunt" argument. I
wouldn't call a pineapple a pine, but I have no problems calling a photograph
a photo. Except that photo has a different connotation than photograph. Just
like frat has a different connotation than fraternity. True, they both mean
"campus social organization" -- NOT NECESSARILY "all-male campus social
organization." However, when people use the word "frat" they're generally
either independents or active fraternity-bashers. When they use the word
"fraternity" they're at least showing enough respect to finish the word. 

Call it what you will, but be aware that there _is_ a difference between the
word frat and the word fraternity. I live in a fraternity house. I am a member
of a fraternity. I say "The fraternities on campus..." or "All the houses on
campus....," never "All the frats on campus...." Be aware of what you're
saying; even if you support fraternities, calling them "frats" is going to
make you seem less credible; by the same token, if you call a fraternity by
its full and proper name, it seems as if you are at least respectful to the
institution. If you insist, blindly, that "frat is simply an abbreviation of
fraternity," well, go for it, but you're not impressing me.

And I _said_ I wouldn't come back into the fraternity discussion. Oh well.

Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu

Newsgroups: soc.college
From: davidh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (David Klein)
Subject: Re: creating a greek newsgroup
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:00:44 GMT

There already was a suggestion for soc.college.Ted_Frank.
Hint!
-- 
 David H. Klein        davidh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu      Brandeis University
 "The single most creative thing that a person can do is run a company."     
                            -Jerry Sterner   author of Other People's Money
  << The opinions reflected herein have no relation Brandeis University >>
From: mokie@cco.caltech.edu (Michael L. Brundage)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Hey, anyone in/around Pasadena over the holidays?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 14:51:50 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Summary: looking for something to do

I'm a junior at Caltech, and I'm going to be around campus over the break (I'm
actually from Oklahoma)  Anyway, if you're in the area, and would like to do
something (I have no car, but I've discovered RTD! :> ) email me.

Michael


-- 
mokie@cco.caltech.edu        |  "Let not your heart be troubled,
        or                   |    believe in God, believe also in Me."
     1-800-IMBORED           |       John 14:1 (NASVB)

Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 02:21:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.171017.2005@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> mix@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.164222.27808@news.eng.convex.com>, Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM> writes:
>> From the keyboard of gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener):
>> :True, but "freshman" indicates that the student is in the first year of his
>> :or her undergraduate tenure.  
>> 
>> A second-year student could still be a freshman -- they (or do you 
>						     ^^^^
>> prefer "he, she, or it"?) might not have reached sophomore status 
>> yet due to insufficient credits.
>
>	Oh God, not this!  Can't everyone just accept the generic "he" 
>and get on with their lives?!

OK, you've convinced me - "he" is gender-neutral.  We have our desired
unsexist terminology, so henceforth I shall use "he" and its variants
always, and drop the redundant "she".

"Is Joan here?"  "No, he's not."  "How about Bob?"  "Yes, he's over
there."

Generic enough for you?

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:45:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.144252.22445@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>True, but the only usage books I've seen that say the usage is wrong
>are from the last ten years or so, ie. the time in which women have
>become an 'oppressed minority'....
 ^^^^^^
Do you mean we weren't oppressed before?  What do you call not having the
vote? etc, etc.

>English does have the genderless word 'one', but very few people seem
>to use it.

I use it, but sometimes it just isn't appropriate.  
e.g.  If [a student]i wants transfer credits, [she/he]i must blah blah...
     ?If [a student]i wants transfer credits, [they]i must blah blah...
     *If [a student]i wants transfer credits, [one]i must blah blah...

In my dialect, "one" in the third sentence cannot possibly be coreferential
with "a student".
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:41:02 EST
From: <HERSCH@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language

In article <1992Dec19.204815.12950@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) says:
>
>In article <92354.130547HERSCH@auvm.american.edu>
><HERSCH@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>
>> The term "herstory" is a jocular way of pointing all of this
>> out, which it does with rather remarkable concision. I know of
>> no one who proposes it seriously as a replacement term for "history".
>> Do you?
>
>But some people obviously must have seen the word 'history' as sexist,
>or elst nobody would have created the word 'herstory'.  'History' comes
>from the Greek (I believe) 'histos' meaning, roughly, 'learned'.  The
>word has nothing to do with gender.

It's really hard to get through to some people; it would seem that
many of those people populate this group. I thought I had rather
painstakingly explained where the people who use the term "herstory"
are coming from, but it has availed little. Nobody ever saw the
word "history" as sexist. Many have seen the *practice* of history
as sexist, and they use this little play on words to make that
point. What is so difficult to comprehend about that? Please believe
me, dear boy, that no one, except in your imagination, supposes
that the word "history" has anything to do with gender. And instead
of consulting your "beliefs" about a point of etymology, you might
consult a dictionary. You're actually close, but no cigar.

H.

Herschel Browne
"The" American University
From: censtad@nic.gac.edu (Topher the Gustie)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: PC language
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:49:58 GMT
Reply-To: censtad@nic.gac.edu

This whole thread can be moved off of this channel since it has evolved  
into a conversation having ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH COLLEGE LIFE!!!


Thank you

Chris
From: DSCT@db1.cc.rochester.edu (DAVID SCOTT)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: TEXAS SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY
Date: 19 Dec 92 21:36:04 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester, Rochester NY
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <2239.347.uupcb@yob.sccsi.com> erich.lim@yob.sccsi.com writes:

> klassen@sol.UVic.ca (Melvin Klassen) writes:
> -> Texas Southern University's marching band turned a shopping-trip into
> -> a shoplifting spree, stealing $26,000 worth of electronics before
> -> Japanese police retrieved most of the goods.
> -> Officials said Tuesday that the band was visiting Tokyo to play at
> -> the half-time show of a Dec. 6 college football game between the U.
> -> of Nebraska and Kansas State.
> -> The 126 band-members were later taken in buses on a shopping-trip to
> -> Akihabara, famed for its electronics shops.

>  The TSU band should have thought more about what
> they were doing before they did it, if they actually did, or have been
> more sly about it and not have been caught...
>  Erich.

The good american tradition..... It would have been alright if you didn't get 
caught, but since you did, that was bad.
			-Gavin Fischer

                                                                                                        
Newsgroups: soc.college
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: creating a greek newsgroup
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:09:42 GMT

In article <davidh.724114844@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu> davidh@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (David Klein) writes:
>There already was a suggestion for soc.college.Ted_Frank.
>Hint!

Well, that might get the posts about Ted Frank out of the way, which
wouldn't be a bad thing, as they're completely irrelevant.  I don't 
really have much interest in discussing Ted Frank, though, so I probably 
wouldn't post there.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: The CU French/Basketball Problem
Keywords: french final basketball practice conflict go boom
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:58:12 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Leaving aside the question of whose fault it was, and who did or did not
schedule the proper use of the facility, let's look at this from a purely
educational standpoint.

The simple fact of the matter is, giving an A to everyone present simply
is not fair.  There are going to be at least a few students for whom that
A will represent the difference between passing and failing, and who could
never have earned that A on their own.  Now they'll move up to the next
class in the sequence and be woefully underprepared.  This is flat wrong
-- it isn't fair to the students who actually studied all semester and
would have earned an A anyway, and it isn't fair to the students who are
going into a class they shouldn't be in.  I've been there -- it's not
pretty.

My gut reaction is that no harm would have been done to move basketball
practice back an hour or so, except that perhaps some students would have
had to leave early to catch another exam.  Moreover, there were only,
what?  20 players plus a few coaches, and over 500 exam-taking students.
I may be simplistic, but frankly I don't think avoiding a minimal
inconvenience for 20-odd people is worth cheating 500 students out of the
right to have their work fairly evaluated.  Yes, there was a screwup
somewhere, but why penalize the students?

Disclaimer: I *like* college athletics.  I *love* women's basketball.
But, in this case, I don't think the practice was important enough to end
the final.  Sure, complain later, that's fine, but don't force everyone
out because you can't wait a while.

--
--Andrew Hackard                                 If I spoke for UT, this post
  andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu                        would make even less sense.

                    "Hallelujah, Noel, be it Heaven or Hell,
                        The Christmas we get we deserve."
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Comments on fraternities (was Re: Comments on G**** life)
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:16:51 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility

In article <1992Dec10.061711.10033@njitgw.njit.edu> dcg5662@hertz.njit.edu (Dave Grabowski (KxiK)) writes:
>  Why is this a "problem" that we need to "get around"? It's not my
>problem that someone sees me naked. It's someone ELSE'S problem. And
>frankly, I don't want to hear about someone ELSE'S problems. That's why
>I don't want women living in my fraternity house.
>
Why are you assuming that any woman would be upset to see you naked?  If you
are concerned about it, mention it to people who are thinking of joining the
frat:  "Some residents of this house sometimes walk around naked.  If this
would offend you, please do not join."

>  There's always the classic male/female clashes: women spending two
>years in the bathroom every morning, pantyhose hanging on the shower
>curtain, etc. etc. etc. 

Maybe if you lived in a co-ed residence you would recognize this stupid
stereotype for what it is.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Xref: sparky soc.college:5666 alt.usage.english:9646
From: heidi@ucthpx.uct.ac.za (Heidi de Wet)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Date: 17 Dec 92 09:21:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucthpx.1992Dec17.092132.19098
Organization: Dept of Elec Eng, UCT

mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.182343.1179@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>Sorry, Mandar, but it's *not* unrelated.  It's *not* unrelated
>>to the *continuation* of these hardships.  
>
>Language isn't related to the continuation of these hardships, *people*
>are.

Yes, 'people' are related to the problem.  No, that doesn't mean language
is unrelated.

Some more set theory: if set A intersects with set B, and set B and set
C are disjoint, that does not imply that set A does not intersect with
set C.

Language shapes thought, and therefore affects what people do.  It is
not the only influence - I haven't seen *anyone* suggest that it is - 
but it is nevertheless not unimportant.

-- 
The net is like a vast sea of lutefisk with tiny dinosaur brains embedded 
in it here and there. Any given spoonful will likely have an IQ of 1, but 
occasional spoonfuls may have an IQ more than six times that!
                                                     - James 'Kibo' Parry
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Comments on Greek Life
From: censtad@dion.gac.edu (Topher the Gustie)
Date: 12 Dec 92 14:58:26 -0600
Reply-To: censtad@nic.gac.edu   

In article <Bz0vEv.AIM@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>  writes:
 I would consider the Fraternity and Sorority sytem (F/S, maybe?)
> to be uncourtious.  Nothing more.  If you folks don't care enough to be  
show
> some consideration, then fine.  I really have no problem with that.   
I'll just
> not treat your system as a friend, since it has refused to do the same  
for me.
> 
> Peace.
> 
> Matt Ivaliotes

So have you become the international spokesperson for YOUR nationality or  
are you just speaking for yourself?  Greek life is Greek life to this  
member.
Xref: sparky soc.college:5658 alt.usage.english:9633
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:16:20 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec13.194723.3173@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>I've figured out how to get rid of all sexist language!!  Replace all
>combinations of letters that spell words denoting one sex with the
>combinations referring to the same concept but without sex.  For
>example, s-o-n becomes c-h-i-l-d, h-e becomes i-t, h-i-s becomes i-t-s,
>and so on:
>
>This produces the following words:
>SONG becomes CHILDG (any suggestions on how to pronounce it?)
>MANY becomes ONEY (too bad it's so easy to confuse 'oney' with 'one')
>and my favorite:
>THIS becomes TITS.
>
>(Smileys where appropriate)
>
>--Ted Schuerzinger
>email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
>"I should have known it would be bad vodka when all the label said was
>'Russian Vodka'."

A most WONDERFUL repartee!

I guess the so-called "sexist" words will drop out of usage the day
"fish" is spelled as "ghoti".    :)

                                                          Mandar.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space the final frontier" - Star Trek.
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong"
                                                         - The Beatles
Xref: sparky soc.college:5754 alt.usage.english:9741
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:19:41 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Dec15.083958.4948@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> heidi@ucthpx.uct.ac.za (Heidi de Wet) writes:
>thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>>It's a shame we don't have a third-person singular the way the Finnish
>>do.  It would be a simple solution. 
>
>Unfortunately,

Fortunately,

>as soon as anyone suggests developing one, they get
>flamed to extinction by the language purists :-}

No, not by the language purists, merely by people who take language as
a living system which follows its own laws.  If Finnish has a single
third person singular animate pronoun rather than two, it is because
that's how Finnish works, not because someone suggested developing
this kind of system.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Simon's Rock of Bard - shooting
From: osterber@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Osterberg)
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:47:48 GMT
Distribution: usa

>was "troubled". Some claimed that he was also fairly racist, hating
>almost all minorities. His father denied the allegations of racism.

From everything that I read, he was a very well-documented racist, and
quite bigoted (is that a word?). He disapproved of blacks, interracial
marriages, homosexuals, etc., etc. It appeared he hated everyone except
caucasion heterosexuals.
-Rick
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Herstory
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:36:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.204815.12950@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>In article <92354.130547HERSCH@auvm.american.edu>
><HERSCH@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>
>> The term "herstory" is a jocular way of pointing all of this
>> out, which it does with rather remarkable concision. I know of
>> no one who proposes it seriously as a replacement term for "history".
>> Do you?
>
>But some people obviously must have seen the word 'history' as sexist,
>or elst nobody would have created the word 'herstory'.  'History' comes
>from the Greek (I believe) 'histos' meaning, roughly, 'learned'.  The
>word has nothing to do with gender.
>--Ted Schuerzinger

I despair of responding, for it seems that Ted S. doesn't read what he
responds to.  I can't say much more than Hersch did, but let me try to
rephrase it, even if I'm not an Ivy Leaguer.  No one ever said the word 
"history" was sexist or wants to abolish it.  "Herstory" is a play on words 
and refers to a distinctly different approach to historical interpretation.
English is full of words that are plays on other words -- take the recent
(last twenty years) habit of adding "-gate" to indicate a scandal in the
executive branch: Billygate, Irangate, Iraqgate.

If you're so dead-set on attacking feminism, there's enough out there to
address without making up these straw men (or women as the case may be :) 
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:14:52 GMT

In article <12123@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>
>It is frequently useful to have a separate masculine and feminine
>pronoun, though.  You know, for those long passages where you have two
>characters of different sexes (and such passages come up extremely
>frequently, both in speech and writing), and you can refer to them as
>"he" and "she", rather than by constantly repeating their names or
>using other referential expressions.  Finnish can't do that.

Ivan, how do you handle "long passages where you have two characters" of
the same sex?  Obviously, not an unsolvable problem.

Anyway, I haven't heard anyone call for the abolition of specific
pronouns; we have, however, been discussing using non-specific pronouns
when those make more sense.

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Xref: sparky soc.college:5699 alt.usage.english:9671
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Tenants of English
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:51:42 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

TF>Ted "pitch your tenets here, boys, we'll ride at dawn" Frank
>>
>>"Tenace, anyone?"  -- Charles Goren
> 
TF> I'd love to, but I only have genes to wear.
> 
> Ted "obscure 1972 Oakland A's references backwards-R us" Frank

Genes are fine if you only intend to rollie a bit.

-----ted hayes
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:34:52 GMT

In article <BzL601.LLr@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.233457.25282@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>>Because the meaning of animals is not unambiguous; to some people it means
>>only non-human animals.  This leads to all sorts of tiresome qualifications
>>when trying to write, say, animal rights literature.
>>
>Aha! The "unambiguous" writer caught red-handed! 
Um, I don't think I have ever claimed that natural language was unambiguous;
I think you have me confused with someone else.

>There *is* a phrase
>which is unambiguous in this context - "living beings". So, from now
>on, we should use "living beings" when we mean "animals".
No, living beings includes plants, bacteria, etc.
>
>>However, in the case of human beings, we are fortunate to have many
>>unambiguous terms to include people of both genders, making the sexist use
>>of "man" especially pointless and undesirable.
>
>So you *do* agree with me. The *use* of man is sexist, not the word
>itself. AND, the people who *use*/interpret it incorrectly are sexist.

That's what this whole thread has been about!  I have been arguing against
the *sexist* (i.e. including women) use of "man", not the use of "man" to
designate male human beings.  I thought you were arguing in favour of the
sexist use of "man" to include women.

>Yes, the *sexist* use of "man" is pointless and undesirable. But the
>"non-sexist" use of man isn't.

What is the sexist use of "man" then, since in an earlier post you said
it could be used to include women?  If that isn't the sexist use, what is?

-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english