From: kuno@gssm.otsuka.tsukuba.ac.jp (Yasushi Kuno)
Subject: Extracted from Summary Report (Re: No Response...) [English+Japanese]
Organization: GSSM Otsuka, Univ. of TSUKUBA, Tokyo, Japan
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 06:31:04 GMT

Hi, following are "Objections and Answers" section of the
summary report which I am revising now.  O10-O11 are the added
part.  If you notice any point that differ from actual
discussion, or missed important arguments, please let me know.
$B5WLn$G$9!#%5%^%j!<%l%]!<%H$N!V0[5D$HH?O@!W$N$H$3$m$rDI2C2~D{Cf$J(J
$B$N$G%]%9%H$7$^$9!#(JO10-O12$B$"$?$j$,DI2CItJ,$G$9!#!V$=$3$O4V0c$C$F(J
$B$$$k!W!V$b$C$H$3$&$$$&0U8+$b$"$C$?!W$H$$$&;XE&$r4?7^$7$^$9!#(J

						Yasushi Kuno
							$B5WLn(J
------------------------------------------------------------------
Objections and Answers:
$BH?BP0U8+$H$=$l$KBP$9$kJVEz(J:

O1. Why not make use of soc.culture.japan?
    If your site do not receive it, why not now?
    $B$J$s$G(Jsoc.culture.japan$B$r;H$o$J$$$N(J?
    $B<u$1$H$C$F$$$J$$$N$J$i!":#$=$&$9$l$P(J?

A1-1. s.c.j is mostly used for discussion about Japan as seen
      from outside.  We need "from inside" viewpoint.
      s.c.j$B$O30$+$i8+$?F|K\$K4X$9$k5DO@$P$C$+$j$G$7$g$&!#(J
      $B$3$N%0%k!<%W$OCf$+$i!"$@$+$i0c$&$H;W$&!#(J

A1-2. s.c.j is already too crowded, and we might get complained if
      we talk about Japan-local issue there.
      s.c.j$B$O4{$K:.$_2a$.$F$$$k$7!"$3$3$KF|K\9qFb$G$O$I$&$N!"$H(J
      $B$$$&$N$r%]%9%H$7$@$9$HJ86g$r8@$o$l$k$H;W$&$,!#(J

A1-3. We want Jananese-intermixed articles.  s.c.j. is not
      appropriate because those who cannot read Kanji will
      complain, even if news sytem itself can handle it.
      $B2f!9$OF|K\8l$b:.$6$C$?$N$r$d$j$?$$$N$G!"(Js.c.j$B$O$@$a!#(J
      $B4A;z$,Mn$A$k$3$H$b$"$k$7!"Mn$A$J$/$F$b4A;z$,FI$a$J$$?M(J
      $B$+$i$NJ86g$@$i$1$K$J$k!#(J

O2. Most Japanese will not read English articles, so they will
    just unsubscribe.
    $BB?$/$NF|K\?M$O1Q8l$N5-;v$rFI$^$J$$$+$i!"(Junsub$B$9$k$@$1!#(J

A2-0.  We are not restricted to English.  Any language is
       welcome. 
       $BJL$K1Q8l$K8BDj$9$k$o$1$G$O$J$$!#2?8l$G$b4?7^!#(J

A2-1.  Sure, let them unsubscribe and be happy.  Don't bother
       us with what you are not interestead.
       $B$=$&!"(Junsub$B$7$?$i$$$$$s$8$c$J$$!#6=L#$,$J$$$s$@$C$?$i!"(J
       $B<YKb$b$7$J$$$G$[$7$$!#(J

A2-2.  I, a Japanese, am willing to subscribe.  There are many
       fj groups which only limited pepople subscribe.
       $B;d$OF|K\?M$@$1$I!"FI$_$?$$!#(Jfj$B$N%0%k!<%W$G$[$s$N>/$7$N(J
       $B?M$7$+FI$s$G$J$$$N$OBt;3$"$k$G$7$g$&!#(J

A2-3.  It is a good reason for creating a new group that some
       people are interestead in it.
       $B$$$/$i$+$G$b6=L#$"$k?M$,$$$?$i!"%0%k!<%W$r:n$kM}M3$H$7$F(J
       $B$O==J,$8$c$J$$$N(J?

A2-4.  Already so many people, including Japanese, has joined
       the discussion.
       $BB?$/$N(J($BF|K\?M$r4^$`(J)$B?M$,$3$N5DO@$K2C$o$C$F$/$l$?$s$@$+$i!"(J
       $B%0%k!<%W$,$G$-$?;~$bF|K\?M;22C<T$,$$$J$$$o$1$O$J$$!#(J

O3. Discussion result about new newsgroup in English cannot be
    regarded as a valid consensus.
    Japanese portion should be regarded as the basis for the
    discussion.
    $B1Q8l$G%K%e!<%9%0%k!<%W$K$D$$$F5DO@$7$F7kO@=P$7$F$bL58z$@!#(J
    $BF|K\8l$NItJ,$N$_$K$*$$$F5DO@$r9=@.$G$-$k$Y$-$@!#(J

A3-1.  Many fj readers do understand English.  Whether he
       actually read in English or not is his problem.
       fj$BFI$s$G$k?M$NB?$/$O1Q8l$,$o$+$k$G$7$g!#<B:]$KFI$`$+(J
       $B$H$P$9$+$O$=$N?M$NLdBj$G$7$g$&!#(J

A3-2.  It IS valid if sufficient materials are provided also
       in Japanese.
       $BF|K\8l$G$b$=$l$J$j$K>pJs$,Ds6!$5$l$l$P!"M-8z$@$H;W$&!#(J

A3-3.  In fact, there seems to be enough information in Japanese
       already.  You can ignore English portion all right.
       $BF|K\8l$GFI$a$kItJ,$@$1$K$D$$$F8+$F$b==J,>pJs$,$"$k$s$8$c(J
       $B$J$$(J? $B1Q8l$NItJ,$OFI$^$J$/$F$bBg>fIW$G$7$g$&!#(J

O4. Creating such a group do not necessarly support foreigners
    living in Japan.
    Support will be enhanced in that those who read English 
    can be found, but decrease in that it is not a specific
    group; so matter of trade-offs.
    $B$=$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$,$G$-$F$bK\Ev$KF|K\$K=;$`309q?M$,=u$+$k(J
    $B$b$s$@$m$&$+(J? $B1Q8l$rFI$`?M$O8+$D$+$C$F$b!":#EY$OFCDj%0%k!<%W(J
    $B$8$c$J$$$H$$$&ITMx$,$"$k$G$7$g$&!#(J

A4-1. Not at all?  At least those who willing to help can be
      found more easily in this newsgroup than before.
      $B=u$+$j$^$9!#>/$J$/$H$bA0$h$jMF0W$K=u$1$h$&$H$9$k?M$,(J
      $B8+$D$+$k$G$7$g$&(J?

A4-2. Those who is willing to help can relay to the specific group.
      $B=u$1$F$/$l$k?M$,FCDj%0%k!<%W$H66EO$7$7$F$/$l$k$+$b$h!#(J

O5. It could be the cause of Japan bashing to isolate
    foreingers int fj.*.gaikokujin.
    $B309q?M$r(Jfj.*.gaikokujin$B$K3VN%$7$?$iF|K\C!$-$N860x$K$J$k!#(J

A5-1. To prevent such a problem, increased international
      communication, a goal of this group, is necessary!
      $B$=$&$$$&LdBj$r$J$/$9$?$a$K!"$3$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$G%3%_%K%e%1!<(J
      $B%7%g%s$9$k$N$,=EMW$J$N$G$O!#(J

A5-2. Anyone cannot be enclosed to single group.
      $BC/$bFCDj$N%0%k!<%W$KJD$89~$a$k$3$H$J$s$F$G$-$J$$$N$G$O!#(J

A5-3. Only that the topic of the group is the foreigners
      in Japan, participants are not restricted.
      $B%0%k!<%W$NOCBj$,309q?M$J$@$1$G!";22C<T$O309q?M$K(J
      $B8B$i$l$F$$$k$o$1$8$c$J$$!#(J

O6. Use other (non-fj) group or mailing list.
    $BJL$N(J(fj$B$G$J$$(J)$B%0%k!<%W$+!"%a!<%j%s%0%j%9%H$r;H$($P(J?

A6-1. W.R.T. non-fj groups, see O1.  Mailing List?  That IS
      the isolation, isn't it?
      fj$B0J30$N%0%k!<%W$K$D$$$F$O(JO1$B$r8+$F$M!#(JML? $B$=$l$3$=3VN%(J
      $B$8$c$J$$!#(J

A6-2. ML and newsgroup is not the same thing; why mention ML?
      ML$B$H%K%e!<%9%0%k!<%W$OA4A3JL!#$J$s$G(JML$B$,=P$F$/$k$N(J?

A6-3. Current puropose of this group -- for various people from
      various contry -- will not be satisfied by a ML.
      $BL\E*!"$D$^$jB?$/$N9q$NB?$/$N?M!"$C$F$$$&$N$O(JML$B$K$O$J$8$^$J(J
      $B$$$H;W$&!#(J

O7. Translation may conduct critical errors, so existence of
    a group based on translation is problematic.
    Translation by itself is against copyright law.
    $BK]Lu$O4V0c$C$F$$$k$3$H$b$"$k$+$i!"K]Lu$KMj$C$?%0%k!<%W$O(J
    $BLdBj$G$O!#K]Lu$=$N$b$N$,Cx:n8"K!$KH?$7$F$$$k!#(J

A7-1. Translation is not crucical in forming this gropup,
      although it will be valuable for some people.
      $BK]Lu$,%0%k!<%W$NB8:_$KIT2D7g$C$F$$$&$o$1$8$c$J$$!#(J
      $BK]Lu$,$"$k$HM-Fq$$$H8@$&?M$,$$$k$H$$$&$@$1$G!#(J

A7-2. Not illegal if author specifically permits.
      $BCx<T$,G'$a$l$PH?$7$F$J$$$o$1$@!#(J

A7-3. Quotes necessary for the purpose of discussion are
      valid, and shall be same for translation of such quotes.
      $B5DO@$NL\E*$K>H$i$7$FI,MW$J0zMQ$OEvA35v$5$l$F$$$k$7!"$=$l(J
      $B$rK]Lu$9$k$N$bF1$8$3$H$G$O!#(J

O8. Proposed charters seems no special or specific; so I wonder
    why new newsgropu should exsist at all.  Simple English guidance
    suggesting which group to use for what may suffice.
    $B7{>O$+$i8+$k$HJL$K?7$7$$%0%k!<%W$,$$$k$[$IFC<l$JOCBj$H$b;W$((J
    $B$J$$!#C1$K!V$I$s$JOCBj$J$i$I$N%0%k!<%W!W$H$$$&1Q8l$N<j0z$,$"(J
    $B$l$P$$$$$s$8$c$J$$!#(J

A8-1. Please look at proposed goals G1-G3.  The proposed grop
      will greatly increase the non-Japanese poster's chances
      to communicate with other non-Japanese or Japanes willing
      to communicate with him.
      $BDs0F$5$l$F$$$kL\E*0F$b8+$F$/$@$5$$!#$3$N%0%k!<%W$,$"$C$?(J
      $BJ}$,!"F|K\?M$G$J$$Ej9F<T$,$&$^$/B>$NF|K\?M$G$J$$Ej9F<T$d(J
      $BH`$H$d$j$H$j$7$F$b$$$$$H;W$&F|K\?M$H%3%_%K%e%1!<%7%g%s$r;}(J
      $B$F$k5!2q$,A}$9$G$7$g$&(J?

A8-2. And Japanese who would like to communicate with
      non-Japanese will also feel this group valuable.  Consider
      posting like "How do you non-Japanese feel about these
      topics?"
      $B$=$l$H!"F|K\?M$G$J$$?M$H$d$j$H$j$7$?$$F|K\?M$K$H$C$F$b$3$&(J
      $B$$$&%0%k!<%W$,$"$k$HM-Fq$$$G$7$g$&!#Nc$($P!VF|K\?M$G$J$$$"(J
      $B$J$?$,$?$O$3$NLdBj$r$I$&;W$$$^$9$+(J?$B!W$J$s$F2DG=$G$7$g(J?

O9. There really are no parmanent needs for such a group.  The
    fact that post related to the "gaikokujin" group has calmed
    down indicates as such.
    You can always use fj.misc to post "gaikokujin" topics, so
    traffic can be estimated with respect to that gorup, and
    the traffic is quite low.
    $B<B$N=j$=$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$N<{MW$O$J$$!#<B:]!"$3$N%0%k!<%W4XO"(J
    $B$N%]%9%H$,$b$&$J$/$J$C$F$7$^$C$?$8$c$J$$!#(J
    fj.misc$B$K%]%9%H$5$l$?309q?M4XO"5-;v$G%H%i%U%#%C%/$rB,$k$N$,(J
    $B@5$7$$!#$=$7$F$=$l$O$R$I$/>/$J$$!#(J

A9-1. Topics related to effectiveness of English articles and
      needs for gaikokujin group can be regarded as gaikokujin-
      rerated traffic.
      $B!V1Q8l$N5DO@$NM-8z@-!W$H$+!V309q?M%0%k!<%W$NI,MW@-!W$N5-;v(J
      $B$@$C$F309q?M4XO"$8$c$J$$$N(J?

A9-2. Even if you disagree with above, many of potential posters
      might be busy on above topics, thus "ordinary" gaikokujin-
      traffic was exceptionally low.
      $B$?$H$($=$&$8$c$J$$$K$7$F$b!"309q?M%0%k!<%W$N%f!<%6$,>e$N(J
      $B%F!<%^$KK;$7$+$C$?$N$GIaDL$N%H%i%U%#%C%/$,0[>o$K>/$J$+$C$?(J
      $B$s$G$O$J$$$G$9$+(J?

A9-3. Many gaikokujin-people feel unconfortable to post in fj.misc,
      even if you say its "wrong."  Barrier of fj.misc is rather
      high for English-only people, compared to us Japanese
      (remember, even we Japanese feel fj.misc barrier!), so
      let's be kind to them.
      $BB?$/$N309q?M$O(Jfj.misc$B$K=P$9$N$K$ODq93$r46$8$k$H;W$&!#$=$l(J
      $B$O4V0c$C$F$$$k!"$H8@$o$l$l$P$=$l$^$G$@$1$I!"1Q8l$N$_$N?M(J
      $B$K$H$C$F$O(Jfj.misc$B$NJI$O$R$I$/8|$$$O$:!#(J($BF|K\?M$@$C$F!"7k9=(J
      fj.misc$B$G;O$a$k$N$O$S$S$k$8$c$J$$(J!) $B$@$+$i$b$&>/$79MN8$7$F(J
      $B$"$2$?$C$F$$$$$s$8$c$J$$(J?

A9-4. If we gaikokujin post (perhaps Englis) articles to fj.misc,
      who will read them?  Many Japanese posters are saying they
      will not read English articles, and many English-reading
      people will not read fj.misc at all.  So, fj.misc is much
      inferior to fj.gaikokujin or such.  We cannot simply estimate
      real traffic in fj.misc.
      $B$b$72f!9309q?M$,(J($B$?$V$s1Q8l$G(J)fj.misc$B$K%]%9%H$7$?$H$7$F!"(J
      $BC/$,FI$s$G$/$l$k$N(J? $BB?$/$NF|K\?M%]%9%?$O!V1Q8l$J$s$FFI$^$J(J
      $B$$!W$HL@8@$7$F$i$C$7$c$k$7!"1Q8l$rFI$`?M$G(Jfj.misc$B$rFI$`?M(J
      $B$O>/$J$$$H;W$&!#$@$+$i(Jfj.misc$B$O(Jfj.gaikokujin($B2>>N(J)$B$h$j$:$C(J
      $B$H$:$C$H0-$$$o$1$@!#(Jfj.misc$B$N%H%i%U%#%C%/$GH=CG$9$k$J$s$F(J
      $B8@$o$J$$$GM_$7$$!#(J

A9-5. Only that it's summar vacation.
      $B$J$K!"2F5Y$_$@$+$i$G$9$h!<!#(J

O10. It seems that there are so many "gaikokujin" posts in fj.misc
     which ignores more appropriate fj groups.  Even when
     "gaikokujin" group is created, this situation will remain the
     same.  This is clearly undesirable, so do not create the group
     and let people use already existing appropriate groups.
     I don't believe that posting fj groups in English is not
     effective at all.  Note that all of Japanese posts can have
     their response, either.
     We need time to see if existing fj groups are not sufficient.
     Until then, why not contine experimenting on fj.misc?
     fj.misc$B$N309q?M4XO"%]%9%H$r8+$F$$$k$H!"$b$C$HOCBj$K9g$C$?(Jfj$B%0(J
     $B%k!<%W$,$"$k$N$rL5;k$7$F$$$k!#?7$7$$%0%k!<%W$,$G$-$F$b$3$N(J
     $B>u67$O$=$N$^$^$@$m$&$7!"$=$l$O$h$/$J$$!#$@$+$i?7$7$$%0%k!<(J
     $B%W$r:n$k$N$G$O$J$/$F!"4{$K$"$kOCBj$4$H$NE,@Z$J%0%k!<%W$r;H$C(J
     $B$F$b$i$$$?$$!#(J
     $B1Q8l%]%9%H$@$+$iFC$KH?1~$,Lc$($J$$$J$s$F$$$&$N$O?.$8Fq$$!#(J
     $BF|K\8l$G%]%9%H$7$?$C$FH?1~$,Lc$($J$$$3$H$O$"$k$8$c$J$$!#(J
     $B7k6I4{B8$N%0%k!<%W$G$OB-$j$J$$$H$$$&$3$H$K$J$k$+$bCN$l$J$$(J
     $B$1$I!":#$9$0$=$&$@$H$O8@$($J$$$O$:!#$=$l$,J,$+$k$^$G(Jfj.misc
     $B$G<B83$rB3$1$?$i$$$$$G$O$J$$$+!#(J

A10-1. If we English-only posters use the "appropriate" groups
       you mention, we constantly receive e-mails saying "do not
       post in English here" or "nobody will read your articles."
       Almost no follows of course.  So they are not at all
       "appropriate" for us.
       $B2f!91Q8l$7$+=q$1$J$$Ej9F<T$,$=$N!VE,@Z$J!W%0%k!<%W$K%]%9(J
       $B%H$9$k$HBgBN$$$D$b!V1Q8l$G%]%9%H$O$d$a$F$/$l!W!V1Q8l$G=q(J
       $B$$$F$bC/$bFI$^$J$$$h!W$H$$$&%a!<%k$r<u$1$H$k$P$C$+$j$GH?(J
       $B1~$O$^$:A4A3$J$$!#$H$$$&$o$1$G!"$=$l$i$N%0%k!<%W$O2f!9$K(J
       $B$H$C$FA4A3!VE,@Z!W$8$c$J$$!#(J

A10-2. Of course, topic-specific groups will be more appropriate
       if they can receive positive reactions, but unfortunately
       it is not so yet.  So I propose that we cross-post to fj.XXX.
       gaikokujin and whatever appropriate group.  Then, with
       possible helps of volunteer transtaters et. al., we can
       have synegey effect and all of us can be more happy.
       $B$b$A$m$s!"%W%i%9$NH?1~$,F@$i$l$k$b$N$G$"$l$POCBj8GM-$N%0(J
       $B%k!<%W$K=P$9J}$,$$$$$K7h$^$C$F$$$k$,!"8=>u$O;DG0$J$,$i$=(J
       $B$&$G$O$J$$!#$=$3$G!"(Jfj.XXX.gaikokujin$B$HOCBj8GM-$N%0%k!<%W(J
       $BAPJ}$K%/%m%9%]%9%H$7$?$i$I$&$+!#$=$&$9$l$P(J($B%\%i%s%F%#%"$G(J
       $BK]Lu$7$F$/$l$k?M$J$I$b$$$k$@$m$&$7(J)$BAPJ}$N%0%k!<%W$NAj>h8z(J
       $B2L$,F@$i$l$FA40w$K$H$C$F$a$G$?$$$N$G$O$J$$$+!#(J

A10-3. Visitor's posts in fj.misc has just only begun, and we
       will need some time to develop good habit on them.
       We are just invastigating for the better one.
       Any opinion is welcome, but please be just patient,
       and give our chance on the proposed new group.
       $B309q?M4XO"$N%]%9%H$,(Jfj.misc$B$K=P$k$h$&$K$J$C$F$+$i$^$@$[$s(J
       $B$N>/$7$7$+7P$C$F$$$J$$$o$1$G!"0BDj$7$F$h$$=,47$,DjCe$9$k(J
       $B$^$G;~4V$,3]$+$k$7!"$=$l$,$I$s$J$b$N$G$"$k$+LO:wCf$G$b$"(J
       $B$k!#$@$+$i?7$7$$%0%k!<%W$r:n$C$F?'!9;n$9;~4V$r$/$@$5$$$h!#(J

A10-4. Well, shall we contine using fj.misc forever? or for
       some time?  Is it really better?
       $B$U$&$s!"$=$l$8$c(Jfj.misc$B$r$:!<$C$H!"$^$?$OEvLL$N4V;H$$B3$1(J
       $B$k$H$$$N$,$$$$$s$G$7$g$&$+(J?

A10-5. goto A12-1.

O11. I do not think domain-name fj.life appropriate.  We need
     more discussion.  So I object to fj.life.in-japan also.
     $B;d$O(Jfj.life$B$H$$$&%I%a%$%sL>$O$h$/$J$$$H;W$&!#$b$C$H5DO@$r(J
     $B$7$J$/$F$O$$$1$J$$!#$@$+$i(Jfj.life.in-japan$B$K$bH?BP$G$"$k!#(J

A11-1. Please let us know the reason!
       $BM}M3$r65$($F$h!<(J!

A11-2. I propose breaking fj.living to fj.life.{health,housing,
       in-japan,...}.  The charter for fj.life domain will be:
           "For support to individual lives including personal
            life, family, health, daily problems and etc."
       Fj.living$B$rJ,3d$7$F(Jfj.life.{health,housing,in-japan,...}
       $B$J$I$H$7$?$i$$$s$8$c$J$$!#7{>O$H$7$F$O<!$N$G$I$&$G$7$g$&!#(J
           $B!V8D?M$K$+$+$o$k$3$H!#@83h!"2HDm!"?M@8!"7r9/!"F|>o(J
             $B$NLdBj$J$I!W(J

A11-3. Shall we change name to fj.living.in-japan?
       $B$8$c$"(Jfj.living.in-japan$B$K$7$^$7$g$&$+(J?

O12. I think that a newsgroup name should be a "keyword."  So
     proposed purpose G2 and G3 are inappropriate.  I suggest
     doropping these either and adding "any languages welcome"
     phrase to G1.
     $B%K%e!<%9%0%k!<%WL>$O%-!<%o!<%I$G$"$k$Y$-$@$H;W$&!#=>$C$F(J
     $BL\E*(JG2$B$H(JG3$B$O$h$/$J$$!#$3$l$i$r:o=|$7!"Be$o$j$K(JG1$B$K!V$I$s$J(J
     $B8@8l$G$b$$$$$h!W$H$$$&J86g$rF~$l$?$i$I$&$G$9$+!#(J

A12-1. Why "should?"  Visitors in Japan forms a kind of minority
       community, and needs specific communication channel by
       itself.  Why not fj groups can be more minoryty-sensitive?
       $B$J$s$G!V$Y$-!W$J$s$G$7$g$&(J? $BF|K\$K$$$k309q?M$C$F$$$&$N$O(J
       $B$"$k<o$N%^%$%N%j%F%#<R2q$G!"$=$NCf$G%3%_%K%e%1!<%7%g%s$7(J
       $B$?$$$+$i%A%c%M%k$,M_$7$$$H$$$&$N$,$J$s$G$$$1$J$$(J? $B$J$s$G(J
       $B%^%$%N%j%F%#$K?F@Z$8$c$J$$$N$+$J$"(J?

# So, if you are going to post articles about this issue, please
# state explicitly your permission to translate the articles.
# $B$H$$$&$o$1$G!"$3$NOCBj$K$D$$$FEj9F$5$l$kJ}$O5-;v$NCf$KK]Lu5v2D(J
# $B$NI=L@$r4^$a$FD:$1$k4n$P$7$$$H;W$$$^$9!#(J

# I have summrized this from many people's articles, which I cannot
# afford to mention one by one.  I appreciate all people contributed
# to this discussion.
# $B$3$N%5%^%j!<$OB?$/$NJ}$N5-;v$r85$K$7$F$$$^$9$,!"855-;v$NNL$,KDBg(J
# $B$J$?$a0l!9;2>H$r<($9$3$H$O$G$-$^$;$s$G$7$?!#5DO@$K;22C$7$F2<$5$C(J
# $B$?A4$F$NJ}$K46<U$$$?$7$^$9!#(J

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Newsgroups: fj.misc