From: v-nguyen@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (Viet-Anh V Nguyen)
Subject: Re: [REL] This is for Catholic netters
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:53:19 GMT

From: tran@neep.engr.wisc.edu

>TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

>Recently Longan wrote:

>>Then I met the Buddhists:

>>Budhi1: Long, in order to have black you must have white#..blah..blah..
>>Longan: That's the dualistic concept.
>>Budhi1: (Again) there is no really black or white, it's gray
>>Longan: Hmm..it makes perfect sense#.  This sound so familiar to Einstein's
          general relativity law.
>>Budhi2: Do you know, co' thi.nh ro^`i co' suy, co' su+. tua^`n hoa`n.
>>Longan: Yes of course, I learn this in the Chaos theory#.  In chaos brings
          order, in orders brings chaos.
>>Budhi3: Do you know co' ma` la` kho^ng, kho^ng ma` la` co'.
>>Longan: Sounds like the Schroedinger's dead/alive cat experiment.  Is there
          cat or no cat in the box.
>>Budhi4: Reduce and eliminate tham, sa^n, si brings you happiness.
>>Longan: In psychology: Reduce expectation to increase what you might think
          success.  Make a lot of sense#.
          ............
>Trong mo^~i quan nie^.m ve^` trie^'t ly' Budhi1-4 ne^u ra (kho^ng ha(?n
>la` ddu'ng) Longan co' ve? nhu+ muo^'n no'i "Bie^'t ro^`i, kho^? la('m, no'i
>ma~i", to^i dda~ bie^'t nhu+~ng ddie^`u na`y trong dualistic concept, general
>relativity law (theory?), chaos theory, Schroedinger's cat experiment,
>psychology ... nhu+ng que^n ma^'t 1 ddie^`u la` nhu+~ng ly' thuye^'t khoa
>ho.c mo+'i chi? ddu+o+.c kha'm pha' ra ga^`n dda^y, pha^`n lo+'n va`o dda^`u the^'
>ky? 20 trong khi nhu+~ng quan nie^.m trie^'t ly' tre^n dda~ co' tu+` ma^'y
>nga`n na(m ve^` tru+o+'c.  Va^.y khi Longan tra? lo+`i nhu+ tre^n la` tra?
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>lo+`i ngu+o+.c, tu+o+ng tu+. nhu+ no'i ra(`ng: ca'i o^ng gia` na`y tro^ng
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>gio^'ng cha'u cha('t cu?a o^ng a^'y qua'.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


It seems to me Longan was just trying to point out some parallels between
modern physics and Buddhism. However, the above underlined analogy seems to go
one step further and appears to imply that such parallels are just a conse-
quence of the "fact" that the origin of modern physics thoughts can actually be
traced back to the ancient Eastern religious thoughts since the latter predate
the former by two thousand years or so. If so, then any elaboration on how to
trace and establish such a "hierarchical" ("o^ng-cha'u cha('t") relationship
between these seemingly unrelated things is much appreciated. 


>Co`n ca'c ly' thuye^'t khoa ho.c
>co' ddo^`ng nha^'t vo+'i ca'c quan nie^.m trie^'t ly' xa xu+a hay kho^ng
>la.i la` 1 chuye^.n kha'c, to^i kho^ng muo^'n ba`n o+? dda^y.
>Tuy nhie^n, co' 1 quan nie^.m o+? tre^n ma` ngu+o+`i ta thu+o+`ng hie^?u
>la^`m va` Longan cu~ng hie^?u la^`m luo^n cho ne^n mo+'i so sa'nh vo+'i
>thi' nghie^.m gia? tu+o+?ng ve^` con me`o cu?a Schroedinger, ddo' la`
>quan nie^.m "co' ma` la` kho^ng, kho^ng ma` la` co'".  Vi` dda^y la` 1
>quan nie^.m ngu+o+`i ddo+`i thu+o+`ng no'i cho ne^n to^i muo^'n vie^'t le^n
>net cho vui.
     ^^^^^^^

For the fun of discussion, I too should like to point out where the parallels
may lie though I'm not really sure if such parallels mean anything or whether
they should be encouraged. (Also, since they are just parallels, they should
not be expected to be complete.)


>
>  ...
>
>  "Kho^ng" trong PG kho^ng pha?i la` kho^ng co' thu+.c, vi' du. nhu+
>lo^ng ru`a, su+`ng tho?.
>  "Kho^ng" trong PG cu~ng kho^ng pha?i la` "kho^ng va('ng" hay huy?
>die^.t, nghi~a la` tro^'ng ro^~ng hay tru+o+'c co' ba^y gio+` kho^ng co`n
>nu+~a, vi' du. nhu+: trong pho`ng na`y tru+o+'c co' nhie^`u ddo^` dda.c ba^y
>gio+` tro^'ng cho+n kho^ng co' gi`, hoa(.c o^ng A ba` B tru+o+'c so^'ng, ba^y
>gio+` che^'t ddi ro^`i.  Va^.y thi` PG muo^'n no'i gi` khi ba?o ra(`ng thu+c
>tu+o+'ng cu?a va.n Pha'p la` "Kho^ng"?  To^i xin ddu+a ra dda^y va`i lo+`i
>gia?i thi'ch nhu+ng se~ kho^ng ddi va`o nhu+~ng ly' lua^.n chi tie^'t dde^?
>gia?i thi'ch nhu+~ng lo+`i gia?i thi'ch na`y.
>
>   1. Vi` mo.i va^.t luo^n luo^n thay ddo^?i, ngay ca? trong khoa?ng
>tho+`i gian nga('n nha^'t ma` chu'ng ta co' the^? tu+o+?ng tu+o+.ng ddu+o+.c,
>cho ne^n chu'ng la` "Kho^ng".  O+? dda^y, "Kho^ng" ddo^`ng nghi~a vo+'i
>quan nie^.m Vo^ Thu+o+`ng trong PG nguye^n thuy?.  Va`, "co' thi.nh
>ro^`i co' suy" la` 1 sa('c tha'i cu?a Vo^ Thu+o+`ng chu+' cha(?ng a(n nha(`m
>gi` to+'i Chaos Theory ca?.
>
>   2. Vi` mo.i va^.t dde^`u do duye^n sinh ne^n chu'ng la` "Kho^ng".
>Duye^n sinh la` do nhie^`u duye^n ho+.p la.i ma` co', nu+o+ng tu+.a va`o
>nhau ma` co'.  Va^.y "Kho^ng" o+? dda^y co' nghi~a la` kho^ng co' tu+.
>ti'nh, nghi~a la` ti'nh tu+. tu'c, tu+. to^`n ta.i, ddo^.c la^.p, kho^ng
>tuy` thuo^.c va`o ba^'t cu+' su+. va^.t na`o kha'c.  Kho^ng co' tu+. ti'nh
>trong Kinh Ba't Nha~ chi? la` su+. mo+? ro^.ng thuye^'t Vo^ Nga~ cu?a
>PG nguye^n thu?y.


Well, all this just went right over my head, however, I managed to jump up and
grasped a gist of it [1] (correct me if I'm wrong - thanks):

    As a Buddhist Mahayana sutra ("kinh") has expressed: 

       "Form is emptiness, and emptiness is indeed form. Emptiness is not
       different from form, form is not different from emptiness. What is
       form that is emptiness, what is emptiness that is form."

    "Kho^ng" in Buddhism is the ultimate reality Sunyata - roughly translated
    as "Emptiness" or "the Void". This reality underlying all phenomena is
    beyond all forms and defies all description and specification. It is there-
    fore often said to be formless, empty or void. But this emptiness is not
    to be taken for mere nothingness. It is, on the contrary, the essence of
    all forms and the source of all life. Such a living Void has an infinite
    creative potential. Thus, the Void can be compared to the quantum field
    of subatomic physics which gives birth to an infinite variety of forms
    which it sustains and eventually absorbs.


>Va`, "in order to have black you must have
>white" hay "there is no really black nor white" cu~ng la`
>nhu+~ng khi'a ca.nh kha'c nhau cu?a thuye^'t Vo^ Nga~ chu+' cha(?ng a(n
>nha(`m gi` to+'i dualistic concept hay general relativity
>theory ca?, nha^'t la` general relativity (GR) vi` GR chi?
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>la` thuye^'t tu+o+ng ddo^'i bao go^`m ca'c chuye^?n ddo^.ng kho^ng dde^`u
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>va` a?nh hu+o+?ng cu?a tro.ng tru+o+`ng (Gravity).
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What does general relativity have to do with all this? General relativity is
a field theory and it's Einstein's idea of associating the gravitational field
with the geometry of space which transformed the classical concept of the void
in a profound way. In general relativity, the gravitational field and the
structure, or geometry, of space are identical. They are represented in the
field equations by one and the same mathematical quantity. Matter and space
are thus seen to be inseparable and interdependent parts of a single whole.
That's where the parallel may be drawn: Space and matter in modern physics
and the Void and the forms in Buddhism. Such a parallel is more pronounced
in quantum field theory, where quantum theory and relativity theory are 
combined to describe the force fields of subatomic particles. The distinction
between particles and the space surrounding them loses its original sharpness
and the void is recognized as a dynamic quantity of paramount importance.

(Incidentally, on the subject of prejudice, Einstein once made the following 
 observation: "It's easier to break a nucleus than to destroy a prejudice."[2])


>
>  ...
>
>   To^i dda~ vie^'t kha' nhie^`u ve^` CKDH ma` thu+.c ra la` kho^ng vie^'t
>gi` ca?, bo+?i vi`, co^'t tu?y cu?a tu+ tu+o+?ng CKDH kho^ng pha?i la`
>nhu+~ng ly' lua^.n va^?n vo+ thua^`n tri' thu+'c.  Then cho^'t cu?a va^'n dde^`
>la`: Nhu+~ng quan nie^.m ve^` CKDH kho^ng pha?i la` nhu+~ng quan nie^.m 
>trie^'t ly' hay chu? thuye^'t ma` la` nhu+~ng dde^` ta`i Thie^`n Qua'n, co'
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


In a way, Shroedinger's thought experiment can be seen as a modern physics
"koan" ("-de^` ta`i Thie^`n Qua'n" ?) as follows [3]:

      
       In Shroedinger's cat, we have in effect a superposition of two
       eigenstates, one of which has observer status (the living cat),
       the other of which lacks it (the dead cat). Now what shall we
       do?


And here is a similar Zen "thought experiment": [4]


       Zen is like a man hanging in a tree by his teeth over a precipice.
       His hands grasp no branch, his feet rest on no limb, and under the
       tree another person asks him: "Why did Bodhidharma come to China
       from India?" If the man in the tree does not answer, he fails; and
       if he does answer, he falls and loses his life. Now what shall he do?



>mu.c ddi'ch gia?i thoa't con ngu+o+`i kho?i su+. cha^'p ve^` 1 nga~ the^? gia?
>tu+o+?ng, nguo^`n go^'c cu?a nhu+~ng ham muo^'n mang to+'i nhu+~ng kho^? ddau
>phie^`n na~o va` hoang mang cu?a con ngu+o+`i.  Chi? khi na`o chu'ng 
>ta nha^.n thu+'c ddu+o+.c ra(`ng ddo+`i so^'ng cu?a con ngu+o+`i tha^.t la` die^.u
>du.ng tuy ba?n the^? cu?a no' la` "Kho^ng" chu'ng ta mo+'i co' the^? co'
>ddu+o+.c ca?nh an la.c ha.nh phu'c trong co~i ddo+`i na`y#.  Mong ra(`ng 
>sau cu`ng mo.i ngu+o+`i tre^n the^' gian na`y dde^`u so^'ng trong ca?nh
>ha.nh phu'c, an la.c.
>
>WHAT A RELIEF?  Vie^'t ba`i na`y to^i ca?m tha^'y thoa?i ma'i ho+n khi
>vie^'t ma^'y ba`i tru+o+'c nhie^`u.
>
>Chu'c Tro.ng Nga^n


Vietanh Nguyen

Notes:
------
[1] With the help of Fritjof Capra's The Tao of Physics.

[2] Perhaps one way to cure a prejudiced mind is via Zen meditation as
    suggested by the Zen story, A Cup of Tea:

       A university professor comes to see the master Nan-in (1868-1912)
       to inquire about Zen. Nan-in fills the professor's cup until it is
       full and then keeps pouring. When the professor, in consternation,
       finally stops him, Nan-in says, "Like this cup you are full of your
       own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you 
       first empty your cup?"

    Gerald Rosen, in his Zen in the Art of JD Salinger, commented about the
    story: "The Yiddish-English pun on 'cup' (head) was (one hopes) not in-
    tended by Nan-in, but nevertheless it is perfect."

    As Buddha once said: "Work out your own salvation with diligence."

[3] Douglas Hofstadter, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the Many-Worlds
    Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, Sci Am, July 1981. Also if interested,
    see Feynman's The Character of Physical Law or, for an account with more
    detail, The Feynman Lectures on Physics, Vol. III.

[4] Paul Reps (ed.), Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, Anchor Books, Garden City, NY.

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