HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jie9328@zeus.tamu.edu (JOEL ISAAC EHRLICH)
Subject: Knots on boys uniforms (was Re: Can the Knot be carried..  
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 00:41:00 GMT

In article <Bvnnvz.C0u@umassd.edu>, pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU writes...
>In article <1992Oct5.134012.15590@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz) writes:
>>If a boy earns his God and Me emblem (Protastant) and knot, can he continue
>>to wear the knot when he goes into boy scouts?
>>
>>I'd assume so, since it is NOT a Cub Scout award, and thus would not
>>violate the fact that the only patch that can be carried forward is the
>>Arrow of Light.
>>
>>But I'd like to find out for sure.
>>
>>Marc
>>
> 
>Yup. As a matter of fact, they also at one point made pins to add-on to the knot, 
>to show which of the religious emblems was earned (some, but not all religions, 
>sponsor awards for both Boy & Cubbing - Roman Catholics have *three* of them).
> 
>Also, if I remember correctly, the religious knot is the only knot that a youth
>can wear (mainly because, in all other cases, they are still eligible to wear the
>original patch-version of the award, e.g. Eagle or Arrow of Light)
>***************************************************************************
>* Dennis J. Wilkinson, II                * BITNET:    PNSF01DW@UMASSD     *
>* Senior Macintosh Programmer            * Internet:  pnsf01dw@umassd.edu *
>* Design/CS Project                      *                                *
>* University of Mass. - Dartmouth        * (508)999-8896                  *
>***************************************************************************
>*    Insert disclaimer whereever -  they *are* MY opinions, after all!!   *
>***************************************************************************

Cubs wear just the knot.  Boy Scouts who earned the boy scout emblem also wear
a plain knot.  Boy Scouts who earned the cub scout award wear the knot with
the cub scout device, and boys who earned both wear the knot with the cub scout
and a boy scout device.  Leaders can also wear the knot with appropiate devices.

Boys do not wear Arrow of Light or Eagle knots because those awards are already
on their uniform.  However, if memory serves, boys may wear knots for medal
awards (such as the Honor Medal, the Medal of Merit, and the Hornaday Medal) 
as those medals are only warn on special occasions (similar to the Silver
Beaver etc. knots.

	- Joel

Eagle Scout Class of '85
From: rickc@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Game for Cubs (was Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!)
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:14:10 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.



                     Fireman, Save My Child

You will need: A drinking straw for each player and a simple paper
cutout of a child, this should be about 1 1/2 to 2 inches tall.  The
arms and legs should be about 1/2 an inch wide on the figure.  The game
goes like this: The players are divided into two teams and are formed
into two lines. 

Each team has a pile of the cut-out children on a table and a drinking
straw for each player.  Approximately 15-20 feet away from the start,
place a small pail for each team on another table, chair, stool, or
whatever. 

At the call of "Fireman, save my child", the first player on each team
must pick up a child by sucking up the figure against their straw. 
While holding the figure this way, they then run to their respective
pail and deposit their figure in the pail.  If they drop the figure en
route, they must stop and pick up their child again, by getting down on
the floor and sucking it up with their straw.  After putting their child
in the pail, they run back to the starting line, and the next player
picks up his child and repeats the process.  The first team to save all
their children is the winner.  Have enough figures so each player gets
at least two turns. 



-- 
Rick Clements (RickC@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@phi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 19:50:30 GMT

NOTICE: This is off topic, but not particularly controversial and I'm
following up because it started here. It is also useful in a discussion
to define terms.

In article <1992Oct5.185733.29568@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>
>[...]
>> But Todd, while you may be uncomfortable with these beliefs, they are just
>>as valid as yours, [...]
>[...]
>
>If by "valid" you mean "true", then very few people would agree with
>you. Most of us believe that our beliefs about religion are truer than
>the beliefs of others.

Strictly speaking I don't think "valid" means "true". If you can find
a dictionary which gives one as a synonym for another I believe this
just (correctly) reflects loose usage.

In logic "valid" means properly derived from premisses. I was first
exposed to this not in mathematics but in high school English classes
covering rhetoric.  It was correctly emphasized that a valid argument
from false premisses could lead to a false, but valid conclusion. Putting
this another way an argument or belief which is valid does does guarantee
truth. A good exercise in a logic or rhetoric class is to give an argument
which has premisses which the class won't agree with and ask whether the
argument is valid, e.g. "All blonds are dumb. Mary is a blond. Therefore
Mary is dumb." (Extra credit for blondes who get this right!)

In a less formal sense saying that two views are equally valid may mean
only that neither is absolutely proved true or false, i.e. it is a matter
of opinion with each person entitled to his or her own. Hence I can say
that someone's belief which is different than mine is equally valid without
admitting that theirs is true and my own false. I have a harder time with
beliefs which are self contradictory and contrary to reason, though people
are still entitled to hold them.

>>Just because your religion says Jesus Christ is mankinds Lord and
>>Savior does not mean that it is true.
>[...]
>
>I'd bet that Todd thinks it does.

Indeed, since he believes it and the fact that his religion says so
is the only reason I can see to believe it. Whether or not this is
a sufficient reason is a matter of opinion.

Bill Mayne
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Fund Raisers
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:39:17 GMT
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando

From rjt@softin.lonestar.org (Richard Threlkeld)
>
>BSA must approve any sales of items by scouts in uniform.  They approve 
>projects in which they profit (Scout Show, Trail's End Popcorn, etc 
>here).  They may approve your use, but they are very careful about 
>seeming to provide the goodwill of the Scouting organization to a 
>commercial product.  They also want to know about any fund raiser which 
>approaches persons outside your unit.  This is to ration Scouting's dips 
>into the public well for funding.

You are correct. Let me also point out that your troop T-Shirt (or even
the ones in the catalog) are not considered BSA uniform. There is no prohibition
that I know of that prevents you from wearing a unit t-shirt while selling.

The rules of thumb that I posted were for planning and organizing. You still have
to complete a fundraising form and get it approved prior to holding the fundraiser.
If the local council has a problem with your plan, they will let you know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson                              Martin Marietta E,I & M Group
mwilson@orl.mmc.com                      Mail Point 170
Phone: (407)356-6386                     P.O. Box 555837
Fax:   (407)436-5482                     Orlando, FL, 32855-5837
My opinions are my opinions, Martin Marietta can speak for itself.
From: rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Order of the Arrow
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:50:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: sei.1992Sep30.165031.22002
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute


In article <pkteagarden.33@bobcat.lmc.edu>, Phil Teagarden writes:

|> >>> I was told that they were not allowed to wear "paint" because
|> >>> some Indians objected to it. I could understand this if the
|> >>> Amerindian traditions were being used frivolously, but when
|> >>> the traditional ceremonies are being research thoroughly and
|> >>> used in serious ways, I would think that this shows a great deal
|> >>> of respect for the native cultures. 
|> 
|> Scouting in America has degenerated into somethning of a JOKE.  I can 
|> truthfully say that I am (almost) ashame of admitting to being an Eagle 
|> Scout and a member of the OA.  American Indians have no right to be upset 
|> about painting the body!  Since when do Indians (they're not Native 
|> Americans) have a cornor on paint?  Symbolism? Etc...

How about a litle moderation here, folks?  If you read this in the context of
the quoted paragraph, you can see that original poster used the word "if" and
that Phil could leap to the conclusion that there was no frivolous use.
Indeed, his response is way overdone, but the responses to it have also been
a bit strident.

Now, I'm also a native American, being born here, and so were my parents, but
not their parents (Italy).  None of us ever owned slaves or displaced American
Indians, or ever advocated doing so.

That out of the way, down to business--is the BSA use of those customs done
with respect?  Borrowing ceremonies is flattery, even religious ceremonies,
and it is done all the time, as those familiar with the origins of Jewish and
Christian rites--to name a familiar pair--well know.  A medicine man friend
has purified my house and performed ceremonies for my wife (part Cherokee) and
rite of passage for our children (two of whom are Jewish!).  My friend teaches
these things to Scouts here in Pittsburgh and has opened an Indian cultural
center.  According to my friend, this is what unites cultures and connects us
all to the same Great Spirit.  So, where's the beef?

What needs to be respected is song ownership and the like.  In our excessive
zeal to be politically correct (how I hate that term!), we have elevated all
non-eastern European cultures to near-sacredness, ignoring their serious
defects, while downplaying our own and telling ourselves that we are unworthy
to emulate and adopt the best parts of other cultures.


Rich


   "Please keep in mind that the ultimate goal [of hi-fi] is the
   reproduction of art, and that the invocation of science, while a neat
   parlour trick, is often unnecessary, flawed, and unreasonable."
   --  name mercifully withheld...                            rsd@sei.cmu.edu
From: steele@ra.csc.ti.com (Jeri Steele)
Subject: Re: Discrimination in Scouting
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:21:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep24.152135.21422@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown) writes:
>In article <BuowFo.M0o@apollo.hp.com> johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep16.175700.3639@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>>>In article <BuoHE0.2rB@apollo.hp.com> johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Speaking from twelve years experience as a Cub / Boy Scout in England,
>>>>and six years as an adult Girl Scout member in the USA, I would state
>>>>that `Boy Scouts of America' is by no means representative of the rest
>>>>of the scouting movement.  Whenever I compare stories with a friend of
>>>>mine (a Den Mother in BSA) I am amazed by how different BSA is from
>>>>GSUSA, and from the world Scouting movement I first joined in 1955.
>>>
>>>Don't stop at that. Please tell us how it is different.
>>>
>>>Bill Mayne

>>But BSA?   No women leaders (beyond Den Mother), as far as I can tell. And no
>>
>Sorry, this is no longer true.  Women can now hold any position in the BSA
>including Scoutmaster.  Up until a few years ago, women where barred from
>4 positions: Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster, Webelos Den Leader and 
>Assistant Den Leader.  They are no longer barred.
>
As a female BSA Assistant Scoutmaster I can verify what Michael says is true.
I teach the Communications,Citizenship in the Nation, Computing and 
Electronics merit Badges. Last year I sat on the Troop Committee and was called
on frequently to sit on Boards of Reviews [Yes, I can even tie the knots].

In my Adult Leader training session last year, there were 4 females and 6 males
in our patrol.  The other patrols had a few less.  Sometimes the male adult
leaders in my troop forget they have a female working with them when they say, 
"Are there any Dads going on the campout?".  However, these statements come
from men who don't work around women much.  It's still a predominantly male
organization in Texas mostly because of the lack of females interested in 
camping and outdoors activities, not because BSA will not let you participate.
	Jeri

A female friend of mine who is a BSA Assistant District Commissioner in 
Colorado talked me into getting involved with my son's troop. [My ex-husband
didn't show any interest in getting involved.]  In Colorado there were many
women involved at all levels of Boy Scouting.
From:  (Bill Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: new patrols
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:39:18 GMT
Followup-To: new patrols
Organization: Scoutmaster-The Vertical Edge

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 16:47:21 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: na
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa

In article <1992Oct5.131105.4629@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>This is apparently quite a hot button for this group!  The last thing I
>want is for you rec.scouters to think I am at all anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic,
>or any other anti's you label me with.  I will respond to Donald's article
>because I believe it gets to the heart of the matter.  I believe I must
>respect everyones right to practice their faith as they see fit (as long
>as it does no harm to anyone else).  Specifically, my problem is with
>actively promoting or encouraging a faith that discredits Jesus Christ as
>Lord and Savior of mankind.  I guess as long as it is clear to everyone 
>involved that the Scout award given to the boy who has achieved an Islamic/
>Jewish/Hindu/Buddist emblem is to not be interpreted IN ANY WAY as PROMOTING 
>or ENCOURAGING his faith, then I would be comfortable supporting it.  But how 
>can it not promote or encourage?  Isn't that the purpose of an award??
 But Todd, while you may be uncomfortable with these beliefs, they are just
as valid as yours, and you are no more promoting them by these awards than 
the christian awards promote christianity.  But yes, it is a promotion 
of a sort.  You are encouraging them to be religious.  You can not as a leader
promote your religion onto these kids.  that is wrong, and immoral.  Just b
because your religion says Jesus Christ is mankinds Lord and Savior does 
not mean that it is true.  (I'm not saying it isn't here, just trying to 
prove a point)  It also does not mean it isn't true.  But differeing 
religions have the same rights.  They have the same rights to being encouraged
in their faith as do you.  no more, no less.  So, as leader, you need to 
remain effectively neutral in this sort of situation, either helping them
all with their awards, or none, including the Christian awards.  
Good luck with this dilema, it is a tough one, and not one I envy you for.

Dominick V> ZUrlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88
>
>
>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
>


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pkteagarden@bobcat.lmc.edu (Phil Teagarden)
Subject: Re: Order of the Arrow
Organization: Lees-McRae College, Banner Elk, NC
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 00:54:59 GMT

In article <1992Sep18.202814.43140@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kupete@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

>In article <1992Sep18.160020.43134@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, kupete@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>> In article <90214@rphroy.ph.gmr.com>, rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar) writes:
>>> My son and I went through the Order of the Arrow Ordeal for
>>> Chippewa Lodge (#29) WWW this past weekend and I have a couple
>>> of comments/questions. I'll try not to give away any of the
>>> mysteries.
>>> 
>>> First, the ceremonies team did a great job. Very impressive
>>> and I know that they hit home with most of the candidates.
>>> 
>>> I was told that they were not allowed to wear "paint" because
>>> some Indians objected to it. I could understand this if the
>>> Amerindian traditions were being used frivolously, but when
>>> the traditional ceremonies are being research thoroughly and
>>> used in serious ways, I would think that this shows a great deal
>>> of respect for the native cultures. 

Scouting in America has degenerated into somethning of a JOKE.  I can 
truthfully say that I am (almost) ashame of admitting to being an Eagle 
Scout and a member of the OA.  American Indians have no right to be upset 
about painting the body!  Since when do Indians (they're not Native 
Americans) have a cornor on paint?  Symbolism? Etc...
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Subject: Re: Can the Knot be carried forward to Boy Scouts(was Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:30:17 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz) writes:
> If a boy earns his God and Me emblem (Protastant) and knot, can he continue
> to wear the knot when he goes into boy scouts?
> 
> Marc
> 

Yes, but he should wear the Cub Scout device on the knot.  This is a little
tiny brass colored Cub Scout Emblem shaped pin that is worn in the center
of the knot.  This makes it clear that he earned the Cub Religious Emblem
and not the Boy Scout Religious Emblem, which one would normally assume when
seeing the silver knot on purple background.  If the boy earns the Boy Scout
Religious Emblem he may also wear a Boy Scout Emblem pin on the knot along
with the Cub Scout Emblem pin indicating that he earned both awards.  The
Boy Scout Emblem pin is generally not worn on the knot by boys who have
earned only the Boy Scout Religious Emblem.

Incidentally, the Scouters Key (adult award) can be earned by Cubmasters,
Scoutmasters and Commissioners.  It is appropriate to wear a Cub, Scout,
or Commissioner emblem pin on this knot to indicate the position where it
was earned.

Dan Kary

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Can the Knot be carried forward to Boy Scouts(was Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?)
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:04:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.134012.15590@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz) writes:
>If a boy earns his God and Me emblem (Protastant) and knot, can he continue
>to wear the knot when he goes into boy scouts?
>
>I'd assume so, since it is NOT a Cub Scout award, and thus would not
>violate the fact that the only patch that can be carried forward is the
>Arrow of Light.
>
>But I'd like to find out for sure.

There is a "knot" patch that's sewn above one of the pockets (and unless
I see my son's uniform, I won't know which one) that signifies that a
religious award was earned.  I believe the knot signifies one award, and
if a boy has two (like the Cub Scout and Boy Scout award), he' supposed
to wear two of the pin-on stars on either side of the patch.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon)
Subject: Re: OA
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 00:10:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.212408.24461@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jsgoldma@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeremy Goldman) writes:
>
>This weekend really bothers me, because I expected the best if the best
>kids to be in OA, but I learned differently.  As a 14 year old scout, I
>know that OA elections are much more a popularity contest, than meaningful
>elections.  What are your feelings on this event?
>
>   WWW,
>   Jeremy Goldman
>   Troop 18 --> Owings Mills, JCC i
>

   I have to agree with the previous posting who replied that your elangomat
was far from being a "friend".  Having served as an elangomat and a chapter
chief, I find the behavior you experienced appalling.  Luckily, I am not aware
of anything like this going on during any ordeals I attended.

   I hope that the advisers to the chapter and lodge will be a little more 
careful in supervising the elangomats in the future.

   Regarding OA elections being a popularity contest, I'd have to disagree
somewhat.  I will admit that there are some troops where the elections are
a popularity contest, but most of the time the troops do a good job in choosing
scouts for the OA.

   My election serves as a case.  My troop had not really been very OA oriented
for several years (we had been in upheaval for a while after our longtime
Scoutmaster passed away), until another OA eligible scout and I asked to make
sure that an election be held.

   There were three people eligible for election... the troop SPL, myself (
the ASPL) and a scout in the leadership corps, who was not a very active 
scout (who was probably more popular than I was), but was a good friend of 
the ASM who was basically running the troop.

   Despite some not very hidden attempts to rig the election in the favor of
the not very active scout, it turned out that he lost and received very
few votes, while I and the SPL were elected.  

   So, although elections are sometimes popularity contests (or almosted 
rigged by the adult leaders (I saw an even more blatant case while running
an election a year or two later)), the scouts usually do pick the best 
scouts in an election.

Greg Lyon
Former Chapter Chief,
Tatanka Chapter,
Suanhacky Lodge # 49

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@phi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 15:23:50 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.023216.9997@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>Is it official BSA policy that Scouts accept that no religion is
>better or worse than another? If so, then most people of faith can't
>be Scouts since most people of faith believe that their religion is
>better than others.

I believe that you started this by saying something about BSA policy
being that any religion is better than no religion, which is not at
all the same thing as saying that no one religion is better or worse
than another. To suggest that all people of faith regard religions
other than their own as false and harmful at best and evil at worst
is to take a narrow view. Sadly, this is natural in a culture dominated
by Christianity.

>As far as I can tell, this is not BSA policy. BSA policy seems to be
>    1) any religious belief is good

Yes. Good in the sense of better than nothing. (I don't agree with
that, unless "religious belief" is understood much more broadly than
in the BSA or the normal sense.)

>    2) to have no religious belief is bad, that's why nonbelivers are
>       excluded from Scouts
>    3) except for things such as BSA membership, all religious belief
>       or lack of belief should be tolerated

Again, I like to think that "respects the beliefs of others" means
more than to tolerate, i.e. not to interfere or persecute. I have
interpreted it as a positive value, and one of the best things I
got in part from scouting.

>But, how can all religious beliefs be good when many (most?) religions
>teach that some other religious belief is bad?

Only some brands of Christianity and possibly Islam teach this, as far
as I know. Most religions are quite comfortable finding good in others,
even if they hold that their own is best. Some, like Judaism, don't
even hold that their own is best for all people.

Bill Mayne