HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
Subject: Re: Ancient Macedonian Cities (was Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:57:52 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: midnight.aero.org

>
>Which was the Macedonian Kingdom with slavs as a predominant ethnic group?
>Is this a reference to Alexanders Macedonia?  Or some Byzantine kingdom
>I am not aware of?
>
I am not the person that sent you your original reply.  

There is a ruined fortress at the top of the hill in Ohrid, which
is referred to as "Tsar Samuil's".  Dates from about 1000 AD.

I can't off the top of my head give a specific reference, but I would think
that any history book of this period of the Balkans would discuss this.

-------------

Separate topic:

I am really disgusted with the numerous references to Tito, Stalin,
and even Hilter as the origins of the use of "Macedonian" to refer
to certain slavs living north of the current border.  This is 
ridiculous.

Does anyone disagree with me?  Do I have to go look up references?

Dave Golber

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Subject: "Inner Macedonia"  -- name suggestion
Organization: VTT
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 07:05:55 GMT

Perhaps a name such as "Inner Macedonia" would be acceptable to all
parties.  The name implies that the country does not have a coastline
and that there is at least one other Macedonia.  Thus the Greeks need
not fear that the name be used as a impetus towards obtaining support
for an attempted grab at Greek territory.

The use of "Inner Macedonia" also removes the Greek concern about the
"loss of their identity" in that the citizens of the new state would be
called "Inner Macedonians" and the Greek Macedonians could call
themselves Macedonians throughout the world with no more risk than today
of being misunderstood.  

The people of Inner Macedonia should also be satisfied with the name as
long as they recognize and have no problem with the fact that their
Macedonia doesn't cover all areas named Macedonia.

The country has been accepted into the UN with a descriptive phrase:
"The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," but this is hardly a name.
I don't presume that that title will last long.

-- 
doug foxvog     
dfo@tko.vtt.fi   
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Organization: College of Computer Science, Northeastern University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:45:56 GMT

Distribution: world
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U



> I think that Macedonia should be recognized as a separate
> state.  This insistance upon names is ridiculous.  If the

No, it should not, and no, it is not.


> English had been insitant on names like Jersey, Hampshire,
> and York, much of the United States would not exist.  There

There is a difference here. England viewed America as a colony. Settlers wished
to give to their new cities manes that remind them of their home. But in this 
case the new country is not a colony of Greece and these people are not Greeks
or Makedonias (the original meaning of the word) so your example is not relevant.


> is Paris, France and Paris, Texas.  There are many such
> examples around the world.  One could still have the province
> of Macedonia and the state of Macedonia (or even New Macedonia)
> without any bother to anyone.

There is an Athens in Greece and one in U.S.A. Did you hear any Greek complaining
about this? There are Alexandrias in Greece and all over the world. Did any Greek
ever complained about this? But they object on this one! Isn't it enough to make
you think that it is more than "just a ridiculous insistance upon names" (using
your own words. BTW the word "insistance" doesn't appear in my dictionary, does
it in yours?).



                                                          Think again,
                                                              Xapa.
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:28:47 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan24.184944.3947@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
|> There is no problem with the Macedonian constitution as the Badinter
|> commission found out already a year ago. Neither is there a problem
|> with the name.

Unfortunately, the EC has a slight disagreement over this issue. They believe
that there is a problem with the FYRM's contitution.


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Date: 24 Jan 1993 21:33:50 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.aero.org


There seems to be an impresion in this news group that the use of the 
name "Macedonia" by slavic speakers in the area north of the current
greek border dates only from about 1940, and is to be 
associated with Hitler, Stalin, and Tito.  This is utter nonsense.

David Golber.
From: dk@zen.mp.co.umist.ac.uk (Dimitris Kalles)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:19:55 GMT
Organization: UMIST Sun 630, Manchester Computing Centre, UK

With respect to Robert West's peace-loving posting,
may I remind him that all the neighbours of the
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia have pledged
to guarantee this republic's borders (12 November).
Hoewever, this republic reacted rather badly against
this proposal. So far for sincerity..

Regards, Dimitris
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Historians Speak Out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:26:00 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "I wish to spread Hellenic justice and peace throughout  the
     world." [Herodotus, Alexander, A 10 (322A)]

     (Note: With these words Alexander the  Great  expresses  his
     views and plans.)

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:212 soc.culture.greek:12505
From: phssvb@emory.edu (Spiros V. Branis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: NEWS FROM SKOPJE
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:36:13 GMT
Followup-To: alt.news.macedonia
Organization: Emory University, Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

FROM ATHENS NEWS AGENCY 25/1/93
===============================

According to a Macedonian Press Agency [Thessaloniki] report from
Skopje, tension continued yesterday - for the 3rd day in succession-
between Albanian and Slav "Macedonian" ethnics in Tetovo province.
Following a walkout staged by 13 Slav members of the local parliament
to protest Albanian attempts at forceful Albanization and conversion
to Islam of Slav "Macedonian" ethnics.

According to figures from an official census held in 1991, Tetovo has
a population of 181,654 of whom 71.10% are Albanian, 22.09% "Macedonians",
2.81% Turks, and the remaining 4% a mixture of Gypsies, Vlachs, Serbs
and others.

Tension grew when two nationalistic parties -VMRO and MAAK- set up
a "special Macedonian Council" to prevent conversion to Islam of the
Christian population in Tetovo. On Saturday, the decision was endorsed
by all Slav parties, including President Kiro Grigorov's Social
Democratic Union which announced the formation of a "coordination body"
to cope with Albanians.

The Social ~Democratic Union statement stressed that it had been decided
to establish the new body in view of the gravity of problems created by
the growing process of Albanization and conversion to Islam attempted
by the two major Albanian parties PDP and NDP-IN.

======
Spiros
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:32:40 GMT

In article <93023.122104U15708@uicvm.uic.edu>, <U15708@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
|> In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, viking@bnr.ca (Harold
|> Henrikson) says:
|> >
|> >You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece
|> >never
|> >conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we
|> >return
|> >the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks
|> >speak
|> >Macedonian.
|> >
|> 
|> 
|> New proposed name for Skopje!!!   REPUBLIC OF CANADA!!
|> 
|> It's a wonderful name, I hope everyone accepts it.
|> 
|> 
|> [:> Marios
|> 
|>                                             ______   ____   ______   ____
|> Marios  Kefalopoulos  u15708@uicvm.bitnet  |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |
|> pa vu ga di ke zo ni  u15708@uicvm.uic.edu | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| |
|>                                            | |____| |______| |____| |______|
|> 

A more appropriate rejoinder would be republic of Ontario but I'll buy republic
of Canada if that's what they want.

--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:50:14 EST
From: Eleftherios Hazapis <EH9174A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Geographical term

The Republic of Skopje should not be recognized by a name that is really a geog
raphical term describing a region of ancient and present-day Greece.  "Macedoni
a" can be thought of as a geographical term much like "Iberian" in Spain, "Saha
ra", "Caucasus", "Asia Minor",  None of these names have been or should be used
 to describe a sovereign state.  If this is done, the result inevitably will pr
ovoke the natural reaction that Greece has exhibited in being against the use o
f the term "Macedonia" to describe its northern neighbor.
From: ntepy@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (S Kotsonis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: USA Governemnt SPEAK OUT !
Date: 25 Jan 1993 05:41:30 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu

In article <1993Jan24.184553.3817@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Isn't it 1993 now?
>
>Oops, forgot that Greece is a nation is living in the past.

  I take it you believe that history has changed since then.

Let me guess, since its 1993, Julius Ceaser never said alea jacta est??

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Regards,
Stefanos Kotsonis
ntepy@wpi.wpi.edu






Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: bill@ganesha.cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge)
Subject: e-mail to University of Skopje (or whatever)
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Research Program
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:35:40 GMT



Hello, I would like to contact Oliver Popov, head of the 
Faculty of Informatics at the University of Skopje, or however
it's called, and was wondering if there's a way to get e-mail
there.  I know he has vaxes set up, I just don't know if they
have a net connection.

Thanks,

Bill (bill@cognet.ucla.edu)
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: USA Governemnt SPEAK OUT !
Date: 25 Jan 93 12:58:21 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1993Jan24.213814.3555@random.ccs.northeastern.edu>, by deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta):
> 
> 
>> Oops, forgot that Greece is a nation is living in the past.
> 
> At least we have one :-) and we are proud of it.
> 
> 
>                                               -- Xapa

I wonder if Greece as opposed to city-states of Greeks, not at all the
same thing, hass as much of one as you might think. I suppose the Greeks
could look on the ancient Macedonians as the founders of the Greek
nation as this non-Greek people were the first group to forcibly unify
Greece, albeit the Greeks of that time weren't sure that this was such a
good thing.

Andy
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Politicians speak out!
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:44:33 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <Jan23.052634.29339@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, by irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis):
> o    "I believe that Greece  is  right  to  oppose  to  the  name
>      Macedonia  [for  the  former  Yugoslav Republic] and I agree
>      with Athens.  The reason is that I am aware of  the  history
>      ...  The best argument of Greece is history ..."
> 
>      Henry Kissinger, during the Conference of the European  Cen-
>      tre of Business Managers, Paris, June 1992.


A man of some political acumen as any inhabitant of Vietnam would tell
you...

Andy
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: kramer@pinyon.Berkeley.EDU (Jim Kramer)
Subject: Re: SERB NATIONALS
Reply-To: kramer@pinyon.Berkeley.EDU (Jim Kramer)
Organization: SPS
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:48:17 GMT

In article <1jkmdfINNjfe@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu
(Robert D West) writes:
> 
> Serbians represent abou 2% of the Macedonian population, but
> there are widespread fears that they could serve as a pretect
> for a Serbian invasion of Macedonia in a manner similar to that
> of Croatia and Bosnia. 
> 
> Also on Jan. 17: Tadeusz Maxowiecki, UN special envoy
> for human rights and former Polish prime minister, noted that
> the failure of Western countries to recognize Macedonia has made
> that country an ethnic powder keg.
>
> aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu

I understand that the Serbians are not the SOLE cause of unrest in the
Balkans but can
anyone out here explain to me WHY they exhibit such "imperialist"
behavior?  Will formal
recognition of a Macedonian state provide any real safety from them?

Serbian expansion, a reunified Germany already trying to dominate the
EC, anyone see a
pattern here?

                                   James A. Kramer
                                   Motorola, Inc.
                                   kramer@cs1.sps.mot.com

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: alt
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 03:48:45 GMT

In article <1jk74rINNpi@NYAYA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU>, reinitz-john@cs.yale.edu (John Reinitz) writes:
|> You say you are talking about a name. Suppose the Republic of Macedonia
|> is recognized? What policy should Greece take then?

Whatever it is it will be peaceful as always. 

|> Where do you think the borders of Greece should lie? As under Alexis II?
|> As under Basil II? Or Heraclius or Alexander?

They should lie where they are. What type of a question is that???? 

|> The answer is that I think the stand taken by Greece is absurd.
|> It is equivalent to the United States of America not recognizing
|> the United States of Mexico.
|>     ^^^^^  ^^^^^  ^^ ^^^^^^

You're WAY off. Ill give you a much better example. Its like Mexico gets 
partitioned and the northern section of it decides to call itself Texas. 
They call themselves Texans and they start talking of an oppressed 
minority of Texans in the United States who are not allowed to 
speak their native language. They issue money with pictures 
from Dallas and Houston and they talk about one day uniting all of Texas.
Get the picture?  

|> Chauvinist sentimentality can lead to cities reduced to rubble.

And historical ignorance can lead one to make a fool of himself in public. 
 
|> John

Aleck
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: 114 years since Simeon Radev was born
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:51:26 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <Jan22.212536.36368@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <7338@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>|> On January 19th, 1879 in the small Macedonian village - Resna (the same
>|> village where IMRO was found) was born Simeon Radev - one of the
>|> most prominent Macedonians due to whom, many people in Europe were
>|> enlightened about Macedonia and its struggle for freedom. 
>
>Of course, you fail to mention that this freedom has a Bulgarian flavor,
>as Radev is of Bulgarian origin.

One of undisputed facts is that during the last century and the start of
this one, there were only 6 ethnic groups in Macedonia - Bulgarians,
Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Serbs and Jews. However, the fight for freedom of
Macedonia was at a particular period a fight for real autonomy and
independence and not for a unification with Bulgaria. At least for many
local people. Maybe a not very good example but somehow similar is the
situation in Moldova nowadays, where the majority of the population in
ethnic Romanian, but that same majority (according to polls) is for
independent Moldova and not for unification with Romania. In Switzerland
there are ethnic Germans, French and Italians, but Switzerland is a
separate state and the Germans have lived there without asking for
unification with Germany for many years.


>Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu


Luben
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: agrafiot@wl.com (Dimitris Agrafiotis)
Subject: Catching up...
Organization: Warner Lambert / Parke-Davis
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:19:34 GMT


Macedonian Kingdom?????? I hate to be the one to brake the news, but the
Greeks have won the Persian wars, the colonians gained independence, and Woody
Allen has separated.




-- 
Dimitris K. Agrafiotis
Computer Assisted Drug Design
Parke-Davis Pharmaceutical Research
(agrafiot@wl.com)
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: A Rose by any other name [LONG]
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:46:10 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan26.115532.2074@ousrvr.oulu.fi>, dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:

|> The real problem seems to be a Greek desire that the new nation not in
|> the future lay claim to any part of Greece.  It certainly seems that the
|> Macedonian Republic's government has sworn not to do this in its
|> Constitution.  This is where the argument should lie and where it should
|> be resolved (IMHO).

To you an oath taken by a communist might be enough. To me it is not.

I disregarded the rest of your posting because you virtually repeat the
same arguments with the Skopje communist goverment.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Historians Speak Out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:25:37 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "I am Alexander of Macedon ...  I have a  great  concern  of
     the  whole  of Greece.  I am a Greek and my Hellenic descent
     can be traced back for generations. I wouldn't like  to  see
     Greece loosing her freedom ..." [Herodotus, IX, 45]

     (Note: With this phrase, Alexander I, king of  Macedon,  and
     ancestor  of  Alexander the Great, introduced himself to the
     Athenian generals prior to the battle  of  Plataea,  in  479
     B.C.)

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:30:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.125958.27317@bmerh85.bnr.ca> viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca writes:
>In article <C19Gv7.8F4@ecf.toronto.edu>, androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca> viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca writes:
>|> >You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece never
>|> >conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we return
>|> >the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks speak
>|> >Macedonian.
>|> 
>|> 	I agree...let's return the borders to where they were, but let's 
>|> continue speaking what Phillip spoke: Greek.
>|> 
>Actually, Phillip spoke Greek as a second language.
>|> 	
>
>--
	I guess then that his first language was "Macedonian"?!?
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Historians Speak Out!
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:34:24 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <Jan23.052509.27093@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, by irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis):
> 
> o    "So, Macedonia is Greece".  [Strabo, VII Frg 39]
> 
> -- 
Now my text says something quite different 

'The Homeric 'Asteropaeus son of Pelegon' was, as history tells us from
Paeonia in Macedonia: wherefore 'son of Pelegon,' for the Paeonians
were called Pelagonians.'

Which is something very different. Oh well back to the drawing board...

Andy
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis)
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:13:56 GMT

knaff@mili.imag.fr  writes:
>There is also the (Belgian) Province of Luxemburg, and the state of Luxemburg.
>Theyhavethesame name, because the Province of Luxemburg used to belong to the 
>state of Luxemburg before the Belgians stole it from us.

>Couldthesame have happened to Macedonia? (i.e. both the state and the province
>belonged together long time ago?)

The analogy does not hold because the core (or center) of Luxemburg was and
still is in the state of Luxemburg while the same is not true with Skopje.

The core (or center) of Macedonia was and still is in Greece.  The territory
of the Republic of Skopje was considered to be part of Macedonia only
occasionally and in all those cases the part of Macedonia in Greece was
included.

The analogy with Luxemburg would be more valid if Macedonia, Greece, were
an independent country and the territory of Skopje was in the jurisdiction
of former Yugoslavia.

I hope you see the difference here.

>--
>A.K.

Panos Lolonis
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:275 soc.culture.greek:12597