From: erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.college,soc.college
Subject: Re: Fraternities  was (Re: still more practical jokes
Date: 9 Apr 92 06:24:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: network.s0nuuINNd77
Organization: Linguistics Department, UCSD
NNTP-Posting-Host: bend.ucsd.edu

Oh how can I resist a flame war!!!  Please ignore this if you are not interested
it is full of frat bashing and defending---I am the basher, my original article
is denoted by (>>), the rebuttal by (>) and my new stuff with nothing... enjoy
or ignore, as per your pleasure...

>> It's easy to say "we don't hate women, we don't attack them,"  etc.  But this
>> is not the issue.  It's easy (for some) to abuse a woman, rape a woman, but
>> later not think what happened is rape.  The *real* issue is whether fraternity
>> members *respect* women.  Respect their views, their ideas: conceive of them
>> as people, rather than sperm receptacles with lots of neat curves.  And I
>> sincerely doubt that the majority of men in fraternities know what it is to
>> respect women.  
>> 
>*Sigh*. Here we go again. O-kay, I'm going to say this one more time...
>*are* you listening carefully?
>All fraternities are different. Al men *in* fraternities are different. Each
>human being is unique. You are making a generalization. I am a fraternity man.

My generalizations are based on my experiences.  I *know* what men say about
women when no women are present.  I know what attitudes are expressed.  I have
*seen* drunk fraternity members with drunk women talking very disrepectfully
about the women present...(how they were going to fuck them, etc...)  I have 
heard mysoginst drinking song lyrics sung by fraternity members.  I have seen
pictures of women drawn by fraternity members with fanged mouths for genitalia.
In short, I have seen plenty of disrespect for women voiced and otherwise 
indicated by fraternity members, while I have seen very little real indications
of respect by the same.  Plenty of lip service, buy little real respect.

>I respect *everyone*. I try to remember that everyone is unique; everyone
> is defined be a million different experiences. Some of those are related to
>sex. I respect tose experiences, and the differences they bring. Have I made
>myself *quite* clear, or shall I tattoo it on your forehead so you can read
>it every day?
>
You are quite the man if you truly can respect *everyone*.  If only we could
all remember that everyone has much to contribute to life....
>
>> It is nearly impossible to rid one's self of racism without having a good
>> friend of a race other than your own.  Only in this way can you hear opinions
>> and views from a person who's life experience is vastly different than your own.
>> And only if this person is your friend, usually, can you respect such views
>> different than your own.  The same goes for tolerating people of different
>> cultures, religions, and also of different sexes.
>
>Maybe you should get rid of that classist attitude. Get a few fraternity friends
>and *then* make a judgment. Even then, you will be making a silly and inaccurate
>generalization, but at lease that judgement has a hope in hell of being 
>slightly closer to the mark. I think anyone can see the hipocracy evident in
>your posting. You apparently have no fraternity friends, you are making 
>judgements and heresay, yet you give advice like the above. Maybe you should
>practice what you preach.

Quite clever of you to point out this shortcoming in my argument....I only was
close to a guy who was courted strongly by a fraternity, but turned it down....
However, saying that *you* or *your fraternity* is totally angelic and all
respecting, does not prove that my 'generalization' is 'silly and innaccurate.'
As I have stated, even I have seen many examples of fraternities promoting
the ideal of women-as-sex-object, and never the ideal of woman-as-human-being.
Granted, this is a problem with men in general, but would you be willing to say
that the majority of fraternities manage to overcome this tendency, despite
an environment that promotes close friendships with other men over close friendships with women?

>> If you are male, and you have never had a *very* close female friend, someone
>> you have respect for because of what they say and do, it is unlikely that you
>> have respect for women in general.  And how can you form such a bond in a
>> fraternity, where all your friends are guys, constantly reinforcing your ideas
>> that women are playthings rather than real people that need to be listened to.
>> 
>I find this ludicrous (sp?) and insulting. I have a load of female 
>friends, but even if I didn't, my lack of female friends would not 
>necessarily mean I didn't respect women. The bond I formed ith my brothers is 
>different entirly from the bonds I form with my other friends; the bonds I form
>with each of my friends is different from the bonds I have with all my other 
>friends. Each bond of friendship is different. Each boerhood is different.
>If you have exactly the same relationship with each of your friends, you must 
>lead a boring life.

Of course I never said that you have to have exacty the same relationship will
(with) each of your friends, but this is besides the point.  You say that if you
did not have any female friends, you would not necessarily disrespect women.  I
claim that a normal american male will disrespect women and tend to think of 
them as objects unless something occurs, like a close friendship, to lead him
otherwise.  This is a product of ages and ages of male dominated society.  Women
in mass media are portrayed more often than not as merely objects; look closely
at the next beer commercial if you don't believe me.  It takes something to
overcome this ingrained ignorance....how can you learn to overcome it if you
surround yourself with men who grew up in the same women-objectifying atmosphere
as yourself?   To put it more generally, how can you learn to see other points
of view if you only live with people who see it the same as you?  If there is
much more contact with men than with women every single day, how can you come
out with a balanced view?  I don't deny that it is possible, and hey, you may
be more well adjusted than I am, but following my reasoning here, how can you
say that the majority of fraternity men can learn to respect women simply by
living in a fraternity?
>
>> I feel that this is the central problem with fraternities:  they are dens of
>> old-world sexist ideals, places where progressive ideas die before they can
>> even be thought of, where women are forcibly excluded, where respect for those
>> of different sex, color, or culture has absolutely zero chance of forming, in
>> short, places where the status quo in America reigns.
>> 
>
>We are *not* dens of old world sexist ideals. If we were, My chapter would not
> have held a benefit for the local battered wife shelter. If you knew any Phi

That's very noble of you.  Throwing money at a problem is the American way.
Do any of your brothers beat their girlfriends now?  Did any of you learn from
the women at the shelter?  Did any of you talk to them about their experiences?

>Delts, or if you had ever pledged, you'd know that one of the tests of a true 
>Phi is the ability to respect the opinions of *everyone* regardless of race, 
>sex, or creed. These are more than words for us. It's and ideal we strive for.

More than words.  When that awesome looking babe gets drunk at one of your
parties, is she taken upstairs, or taken home....?

>How can you make these silly generalizations? I'm torn here between blind
>fury and laughter at your abysmal ignorance/abject stupidity. We do exclude

I have tried to explain the motivations for what I have claimed.  I think my
concerns are valid, and I am not afraid to discuss them.  I would love to learn
that fraternities are progressive minded and hold a deep respect for all.
Unfortunately, I have not witnessed any of this attitude, but plenty of the 
opposite.  Is it just me?

>women, it's true. I make no apologies for that. We are a men's only club.

Excluding women is arbitrary, counterproductive, unecessary, and passe.  There's
no valid reason for this.  Only 'tradition,'  and what is tradition but clinging
to the past?  This is a new world, and a new world must bring with it new ideas
and new ways of doing things.  What are fraternities but the seeds of future
'good old boy networks?'  Old ideas such as this are causing the stagnation of
America.

>We do *not* exclude anyone else. If you are a male student at our university,
>or any of our affiliates, we will give you a chance to join. I also notice
>not *once* in this posting do you mention sororities, though they are as 
>sexist as fraternities. Why is that?

Here you admit that fraternities are sexist, as well as sororties.  The
difference is that a man can do a lot more harm to a woman than a woman can
do to a man....

>Pledge a fraternity. Make your desision about *that* *Particular* fraternity.
>Stop making silly generalizations. You are as bad as the sexist people you
>are trying (pathetically) to slam.

Well, sexist people deserve slamming....   I have made my decision about enough
particluar fraternities to feel able to generalize it this way....

>I'm sorry this is so insulting, but I get a little upset when people make
>a judgement about em when they have never met me. It's part of the reason I
>try not to do the same.

That's nice of you.  Although you did call me 'stupid' or some such earlier.
In any case, I am not offended.  I do hope you actually are different....
>Later
>Mike

Hasta, 
Sean
-- 
Ya down wit PDP?  (Yeah you know me...)
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