From: velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde)
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:21:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.234327.11358@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:
>In article <BRANDON.92Nov12143335@gauss.math.brown.edu> brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon) writes:
>
>>The eagle sable, possibly double-headed, I've often seen attributed in
>>origin to the Holy Roman Empire, which used Or, an eagle sable.  A number
>>of central and eastern European countries use the motif (Prussia, Russia,
>>Austria, among others.)
>
>  I believe that the two-headed eagle is a symbol associated with the original
>Roman Empire, and that it was adopted by many nations that claimed to have
>"imperial" status.  

Roman legions had eagles on their standards, but they had one head, and
looked nothing like heraldic eagles. The Middle Ages associated the double
headed eagle with Empires (actually, I think the "attributed" arms of 
Charlemagne had a three-headed eagle).
According to Neubecker, Byzantium had Gules, a double-headed eagle Or. 
The arms of the ruling family were sometimes added on the eagle (as was
done, more frequently, in the West).  The cross with 4 B's was, as 
someone said, the arms of the Paleologue family, last rulers of Byzantium.

Someone also mentioned that Byzantium is sometimes offered as the 
origin of heraldry.  Many people have such a dim view of medieval times, 
that it seems impossible that these Frankish brutes could have come up
with heraldry on their own: so it must have come from Byzantium, the 
Arabs, classical Antiquity, etc... I don't think any of these theories
is taken seriously nowadays, and heraldry is seen as a truly authentic
Western European cultural phenomenon, like Romanesque churches.

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Byzantine Flags, and Another Question
Distribution: world
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <1992Nov12.234327.11358@vela.acs.oakland.edu> atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:
>In article <BRANDON.92Nov12143335@gauss.math.brown.edu> brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon) writes:
>
>>The eagle sable, possibly double-headed, I've often seen attributed in
>>origin to the Holy Roman Empire, which used Or, an eagle sable.  A number
>>of central and eastern European countries use the motif (Prussia, Russia,
>>Austria, among others.)
>
>  I believe that the two-headed eagle is a symbol associated with the original
>Roman Empire, and that it was adopted by many nations that claimed to have
>"imperial" status.  

Roman legions had eagles on their standards, but they had one head, and
looked nothing like heraldic eagles. The Middle Ages associated the double
headed eagle with Empires (actually, I think the "attributed" arms of 
Charlemagne had a three-headed eagle).
According to Neubecker, Byzantium had Gules, a double-headed eagle Or. 
The arms of the ruling family were sometimes added on the eagle (as was
done, more frequently, in the West).  The cross with 4 B's was, as 
someone said, the arms of the Paleologue family, last rulers of Byzantium.

Someone also mentioned that Byzantium is sometimes offered as the 
origin of heraldry.  Many people have such a dim view of medieval times, 
that it seems impossible that these Frankish brutes could have come up
with heraldry on their own: so it must have come from Byzantium, the 
Arabs, classical Antiquity, etc... I don't think any of these theories
is taken seriously nowadays, and heraldry is seen as a truly authentic
Western European cultural phenomenon, like Romanesque churches.

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry