From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Fuehrer meets Mufti
Date: 18 Nov 1992 01:32:28 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70
Keywords: Tichauer

In article <FmycuB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> Manfredo Tichauer writes:
>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>>       MEQ #23.  Der Fuehrer und der Grossmufti.
       
>     [deleted lines]
   
>>    The Fuehrer then made the following declaration, requesting
>>    the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:
 
>     [deleted lines] 
 
>>    3) As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Fuehrer would
>>       offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour
>>       of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only
>>       remaining objective in the region would be limited to the
>>       annihilation of the Jews [*] living under British
>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>       protection in Arab lands...

>>    [Excerpts from a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin
>>    Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, on 28 November 1941.
>>    The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, a translator
>>    in the Foreign Minister's Secretariat.]
 
>>    Source:
>>      geheime Reichssache 57 a/41, quoted in G. Fleming, Hitler and
>>      the Final Solution (Univ of California Press, 1984) 101-104.
>> 
>>    [*] "Vernichtung des ...Judentums" in the German original.
>>    [Akten zur D. Aus. Pol. 1918-1945, Ser. D, XIII/2, p718]
>>    This phrase can reasonably be translated "annihilation of the
>>    Jews" as here, but weaker interpretations are possible.
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    A query on soc.culture.german failed to resolve this issue
>>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>    despite more than 30 responses, ranging from "annihilation
>>    of the Jews is the only possible translation" to "a dramatic
>>    way to promise elimination of the Jewish national home".
>>    What the Mufti considered he had been promised is uncertain,
>>    as the only other record of the conversation, the Mufti's
>>    diary, says merely "annihilate the power that brings the Jews",
>>    maybe meaning Britain. [J. Peters, From Time Immemorial, p438]
>>    The strongest known promise ever made to the Mufti in writing
>>    was "abolition of the Jewish national home".

>>    Acknowledgement: Apart from the note, this MEQ was prepared by
>>       Danny Keren.  The note was written by the editor.

>    Only a blunt antisemite and/or a nazi would have the guts to 
>    put such a theory on the net. 

Dear Manfredo, Contrary to the way I felt on reading your posting, 
I am going to behave better than you did and assume that you made
an innocent misinterpretation of my posting.  It seems to be that my 
posting lends itself too readily to such misinterpretation; in that
case a few lines of e-mail would have caused me to immediately post 
a revision.  I will do that, not because of you but despite you.

If you had paid any attention to my postings on s.c.g, you would know
that I did NOT ask what Hitler had in mind when he said those words.
I didn't ask that because I don't think there is any reasonable
doubt about it.  I believe that if the Nazis gained control over the
Middle East, sooner or later they would have killed all the Jews
and a large number of Arabs.  (If you doubt the latter, I can suggest 
some reading where Hitler referred to Arabs as "half-apes".)
I have said things like that many times on the net; if you made any
effort to find out about me before commiting libel you would have 
known better. 

As I tried to make as clear as I could, the uncertainty was not
<what did Hitler mean?> but <what information was passed from
Hitler to his guest?>.  That is an entirely different question and
I can't see how anyone can read the responses I received and not
admit that there is substantial disagreement on it.  You might
think you know the answer; fine, but I can't find your contribution
in my files.

There is also the question of the translator's role.  To make it
clearer, if Hitler said in 1943 (in German) "We are solving our
Jewish problem", it would be totally wrong to translate this into
English as "We are killing our Jews" even though that was exactly
what Hitler meant.  Translators and historians abide by different
rules, and so they should.

>                                   "Vernichtung des ... Judentums"
>    was not only meant by Hitler: at that time (November 1941)
>    the SS and SD troops stationed in the eastern occupied territories
>    (like Poland, etc.) were fully doeing their "job" by liquidating
>    Jews and other members of "minderwertige Rassen"(inferior races),
>    short before the Wansee-Conference (January 20.1942).
>    If the "query on soc.culture.german failed to resolve this issue"
>    as "professor" Brendan MacKay (from the same school as the
>    "historian" David Irving) states, it might be because Mr.McKay 
>    wanted to
>    interprete it like that (like a failure). The other possibillity
>    could be the following reason: many Germans will try to belittle
>    the word "Vernichtung" because of shame over their own history or
>    because they want to minimize it.

A third possibility is that you are a late-comer to the discussion 
and didn't try to find out what it was about before venting 
your spleen in front of the world.  I won't state the fourth possibility.

You really should take more care before throwing insults around.

Not a single person suggested that the Nazis did not intend to
exterminate Jews.  A lot of good people deserve your apology.  
Now, I apologise to anyone on s.c.g who is unhappy about the 
phrasing in my post.  Later today I will post a revised version 
with better wording.  

I also wish to say that even though Danny Keren and I collaborated 
in this research the wording of the note "[*]" was entirely mine.

>    Any well intentioned German, either educated or not, knows that

>    "Vernichtung" was meant and means ANNIHILATION, LIQUIDATION.

Brendan.

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