From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Dream/Reality
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 17:16:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <philip.712364772@labtam> philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens) writes:
>Rich Payne writes:
>
>>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion [we would have lucid dreams]
>>follows from the proposition [if we could tell the different between dreaming
>>and reality].
>
>  Sorry, I suppose I sounded a little crytic by not expanding on what I meant.
>I'm talking about our state of mind when we are in the middle of a dream; if it
>was easy to tell the difference between a dream and reality WHEN DREAMING, then
>obviously we could become lucid on a regular basis.  

This makes more sense to me, but seems to be a tautology to some extent.
I read this as -we can tell the difference between dreams and being awake
while (possibly only while) in a lucid dream-. Or perhaps, a lucid dream is
a dream where we can tell the difference between dreams and reality. 

Come to think of it, is not a lucid dream, by definition, a vivid dream
where one is aware that they are dreaming and able to direct the events?

>                                                  As it stands, however,
>most people only have lucid dreams once in a while, suggesting that we
>generally are not able to distinguish between dream and reality WHEN DREAMING.
>This conclusion seems to be born out by my own investigations of my state of
>mind when dreaming (this is just me having vivid dreams and remembering clearly
>how what I was thinking of at the time of the dream).
>
>>If False awakening is as common as lucid dreaming (very uncommon), then I
>>am not sure what it says about dreaming in general. Hmmm, if it is always
>>associated with lucid dreaming, then both might result from the same cause.
>
>  Very probably.  I think False Awakenings have been found to occur most
>readily after a lucid dream has ended.  The two phenomena are connected really,
>as in both cases there is a heightened awareness of being conscious and having
>an experience (regardless of whether you realise you are dreaming or not).

This seem odd now that I think about it. First, one has a dream and knows
one is dreaming. Then, they dream that they are awake, but are not aware that
they are still dreaming. Repeat as needed. Kind of a reversal here. And I
could see how this would be confusing.
 
>>Is it possible that most (or even some) -can- tell dreams from reality, while
>>some cannot. This seems to be a matter of perceptions more than state. At
>>least, all the evidence I have seen so far has been perceptual.
>
>  Again, when you look at dreaming from the perspective of actually being in a
>dream at the time, it would seem more reasonable to conclude that most people
>don't recognise that what they are experiencing is in fact a dream.  I don't
>really think that conclusion is in dispute; I think the problem we are having
>here is a matter of semantics and perspective.

Here I was responding to claims that both noone can tell the difference,
and that everyone can tell the difference. I do not see that either must 
neccessarily be the case.

>  I don't think ANYONE would wake up from a dream and not realise it was a
>dream!  That sounds rather unlikely.  Some people here have reported that
>occassionally they will remember some event that was suppose to have happened
>to them a day or so ago, only to realise later that it may have been a dream
>and not a waking event!  So confusion can occur, but in this case it's a matter
>of the limitations of memory, I guess.
>
>>Assuming that I do dream (they say everyone does), how would I know that I was in a dream?
>
>  You wouldn't :-)

Well, it could explain some things (which I would bet money were impossible)
which have happened recently. They have not really happened, I just dreamed
that they did. :^) Hopefully this state is repeatable, but either the dream
or reality is falling apart, for other odd reasons.
 
Oh well, as the saying goes, fact is stranger than fiction, because fiction
has to make sense.

>  Philip Stephens
>  Labtam Australia Pty Ltd
>  philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au


Newsgroups: alt.dreams,sci.skeptic