From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: CHRISTIANITY AND AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:56:22 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

I had originally written this as answer to Frank DeCenso and thus was waiting
to submit it until he got his net access back.  Luckily he has now returned,
as I now find though that it is also an apropos response to Jim Burrill, who
is making similar appeals to a "Christian Nation" and including similar
mistakes (eg: assuming that because a founding father made an appeal to "God"
or "the "Almighty" or refers to the Bible, that founding father is thus
Christian).  Whether this "Slanting" is from ignorance or deliberate action
matters not, as it still give a false semblance of legitimacy to the claims
this nation was formed as a "Christian Nation" and thus should be treated as
such today.  One should remember though that this is specifically a reply to
Frank Descenso and not Jim Burrill even though there is some overlap.  I will
try top make a specific reply to Jim Burrill in another article. 

Frank DeCenso presents quotes from the founding fathers as collected by some
Christian group, and concludes that the founding fathers were Christian.  The
main problem with these quotes, is that the group that collected these quotes
did so in a dishonest manner.  They went out of their way to collect quotes
that superficially seem to show that the founding fathers in question were
Christian, while ignoring the existence of the many other quotes which would
contradict their thesis, and would in many cases clarify the meaning of the
presented excerpts as being Deist rather than Christian in nature.  Nor do
they make any effort to present Deism, the faith of many founding fathers, as
that would undermine their efforts to corrupt the quotes of the founding
fathers into "Christian" quotes. 

For those who don't know what Deism is, it is religion and its followers do
believe in god, but those followers are definitely are not Christians.  Deism
professes a "natural religion" which is supposed to be derived from inborn
knowledge and rational thought.  Deism also rejects all need for dogma,
revelation and "salvation." Deists hold Jesus to be "divine" only in that he
was divinely inspired (as could we all be) to empathic, rational thought, and
Deism rejects the diety of Jesus, the trinity, the testimony of Jesus'
miracles and the resurrection.  You will find Deists expressing their love of
"Primitive Christianity", which in their eyes, was derived from the original
words of Jesus (eg: Sermon on the Mount), which (Deists believe) existed
before the record of false miracles, and also the false doctrines of Paul,
were grafted onto Christianity.  While they express great admiration for
Jesus, they in no way worship him. 

Thus it is dishonest to present quotes praising "the Almighty," as evidence
that the person who uttered them is Christian.  It is thereby dishonest to
claim that Adam's praise of a sermon:

	Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and       
	all these things shall be added unto you.'  There is a great   
	pleasure in hearing sermons so serious, so clear, so sensible  
	and instructive as these...
 
or the saying on his mantle:

	                  I Pray Heaven To Bestow  
                          THE BEST OF BLESSINGS ON 
                             T h i s   H o u s e   

as being proof of his Christianity, as a Deist does indeed worship "God." 

In a similar manner, Washington's statement that we owe gratitude to "God,"
is not thereby evidence for his preference of Christianity over Deism.  After
all, Deists too think we owed gratitude to "God."

It is also dishonest to use Jefferson's following statements as evidence of
his Christianity:

	To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not
	the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself.  I am a Christian in the 
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	only sense in which he wished anyone to be, sincerely attached 
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	to his doctrines in preference to all others..."

and

        I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the 
	most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to 
	man....

It is dishonest to use such quotes to prove Jefferson is a Christian, unless
you also make clear what Jefferson means by this use of "Christian," ie:
Primitive Christian.  Jefferson makes it very clear in other letters and
writings, that he considered most of the Bible to be lies, and the New
Testament is mostly misrepresentation and lies about what Jesus did, said and
believed.  He made clear that it was the doctrines Primitive Christianity
which he believed Jesus would have "wished" us to be "sincerely attached."
Those doctrines specifically excluded the belief that Jesus was born of a
virgin, or was divine in nature, or did miracles, or was resurrected. 
Jefferson also makes it clear that he found Paul of Tarsus to be the most foul
betrayer to the message of Jesus.  Jefferson and other Deists specifically did
not accept Jesus as their savior, whose death would save them from their sin. 
The same is true of Adams; while you can easily find a quote in which he
claims to be Christian, if you read further you will find that he also states
what verses in the Bible define his "Christianity," and you will note that
acceptance of Jesus as divine or savior is not among his criteria:

    Conclude not from all this that I have renounced the Christian
    religion.... Far from it I see every page something to recommend
					      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Christianity it its purity, and something to discredit its corruption...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The ten commandments and the sermon on the mount contain my religion.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
				John Adams
				Letter to Jefferson
				Nov 4, 1816

Thus with that in mind, it would be pure hypocrisy to thereby declare that
Jefferson's and Adams' praise of Jesus and Primitive Christianity proves them
to be truly Christian. 

And with the above quote in mind it would not be honest to conclude that 
Adams following speech proves his Christianity:

        Article 10.  "That the late Act of Parliament for establish-     
        ing the Roman Catholic Religion and the French Laws in that      
        extensive country now called Quebec, is dangerous in an          
        extreme degree to the Protestant Religion and to the civil       
        rights and liberties of all America; and therefore as men        
        and Protestant Christians, we are indispensably obliged to 
	take all proper measure for our security."       

Note that according to the ambiguity of English, it is quite possible for
Adams to mean that he was speaking to a group of people which was made up of
men and also Protestant Christians, rather than meaning that he was appealing
to men who were Protestant Christians.  Admittedly such an interpretation
would be a bit of a rhetoric trick on Adams' part, but I would not be
surprised at Adams use of such a persuasion technique to get people to follow
his lead.  This is especially believable considering his open antagonism
towards the Catholic Church and Catholic rule.  And in light of his personal
correspondence which shows him to reject a Christian characterization for
himself, it is not appropriate to use this public rhetoric to prove his faith
as being Christian. 

Actually, the only clear statement of Christianity in your list is
Washington's statement:

	Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our
	Lord.  Amen.

But then that is one of the Few statements I know of by Washington, and as I
discussed in another article, since Washington made so few such statements and
also made so many other statements with a distinctly Deist slant to them (eg:
the liberalization of Christianity), Washingtons theology thus becomes quite
debatable.  In any case it would behoove you to read much more of Adams,
Jefferson and Washington before you simply declare them to be Christian. 
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are
    those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted 
    them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, 
    and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come 
    when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, 
    in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation 
    of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
				Jefferson
				Letter to Adams, Apr 11, 1823.

    [Of Jesus] Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his
    biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct 
    morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and others, 
    again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, 
    charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such 
    contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, 
    therefore, the dross; restore to him the former and leave the latter 
    to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of 
    this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and 
    first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus.
				Jefferson
				Letter to W. Short, 1820.

    As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation.
    But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have 
    been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made 
    them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
				John Adams
				Letter to F. A. Van der Kamp
				Dec 27, 1816

    My History of the Jesuits is not elegantly written, but is supported by
    unquestionable authorities, is very particular and very horrible.  Their
    restoration is indeed "a step toward darkness," cruelty, perfidy,
    despotism, death, and-! [sic]  I wish we were out of danger of bigotry
    and Jesuitism.
				John Adams
				Letter to Jefferson
				Aug 9, 1816

    The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized
    learning... And since the Reformation, when or where has existed a 
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? [sic]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most 
    yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and 
    applauded.  But touch a solemn truth in collusion with dogma of a sect, 
    though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have 
    disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, 
    and fly into your face and eyes.
				John Adams
				Letter to John Taylor

    The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion.
				George Washington 
				Diplomatic message to Malta
				"Salvation for Sale" by Gerard Straub

    As mankind becomes more liberal, they will become more able to allow 
    that those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community 
    are equally entitled to the protection of civil government.  I hope 
    ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples of justice 
    and liberality.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		George Washington
				Message to Catholics, 1789

    The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud
    themselves for an enlarged and liberal policy - a policy worthy of 
    imitation.  All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of 
    citizenship.
				George Washington
				To the Jewish Congregation, 
				New Port, Rhode Island.  Aug 20, 1790
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc