From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Subject: Re: Voyager(TM) light and sound device
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:57:33 GMT

In article <8278.19362@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>, lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>>|> They have the research
>>|> available for viewing.  I recommend Megabrain as they are a well
>>|> established company and have more info at their fingertips.
>>|> What I viewed was some glossy paperwork that showed an
>>|> ultrasound(???) image of the brain before, during, and after a
>>|> session with the Voyager. The image of the brain was color
>>|> computer-enhanced to show which areas of the brain were active
>>|> and inactive.....check it out for yourself.
>>What in the word does ultra-sound have to do with EEG?  You said
>>these things enhance alpha, delta, and theta production, which,
>>so far as I know, could not be detected by ultrasound.  And
>>what is the point of the images of the brain?  (Other than to
>>pretend to have some scientific backing for their claims.)
>How would you know if you haven't read it?!?!?!

Perhaps because ultrasound doesn't detect anything that can possibly be used to
judge brain activity?

>This isn't skepticism....this is more towards the ignorance side of
>the meter. I am only a technical writer...NOT a scientist.
>You will have to see the info for yourself....perhaps it was a
>cat scan....I'm not sure at this point anymore because I dont
>care anymore. I've owned it for a year and am satisfied wityh
>its performance.

A cat scan also doesn't tell you anything useful about brain function.  Perhaps
it was a PET scan?  Perhaps you simply don't have the slightest idea what
you're talking about and accept the company's PR at face value?	

>>|> BUT...regardless what you people think in this group.....this
>>|> stuff works very well to at least calm and relax you to the
>>|> point of complete and sound sleep. You want to find out if you
>>|> win....you have to place the bet...or get off the gambling
>>|> table. Get the analogy?
>>LOTS of things help people get calm.  In particular, lots of PLACEBOS
>>help people get calm.  This is well known and not even exciting
>>news.  But these companies specifically claim that this thing works by
>>changing your EEG, and you were endorsing these claims.  I asked 
>>whether it actually DOES anything to your EEG, and I still don't
>>know.
>I never said it changes EEGs. I said or meant to say that it
>actually synchronizes the output of both brain hemispheres.
>The only claim that I endorse is that it does help one to
>relax... If you're on this net then you

The ONLY way to tell whether the machine "synchronizes the output of both brani
hemispheres" is via EEG.  Other things, like PET scans, give average levels of
brain activity over MANY cycles of any brain waves.  You really DON'T know
enough to have the slightest idea of whether the company's PR is pure bullshit
or not.

>>I NEVER said it didn't "work" for you, but I strongly doubt that
>>it works for the reasons claimed.  Does it matter?  It depends on how
>>picky you are about the importance of telling the truth.
>It WILL work for EVERYONE. How it will work is the question.
>Studies HAVE shown that it can induce a seizure in
>epileptics...so now is THIS a placebo effect? You're crazy! Buy
>it and find out for yourself...this conversation is a bore.

Oh.  Are you now claiming that this device has been shown to be dangerous and
quite possibly lethal?  Or are you claiming that studies have shown that
certain visual stimuli (not necessarily those provided by the machine in
question, though) can trigger seizures?

>>Personally, I try to find out what the game is, what the odds are, 
>>whether it is honest, and so on.
>I am EXTREMELY picky on being honest. I have no reason to lie to
>you or anyone else and further I dont give a rat's ass what
>anyone thinks of my opinions! I speak the truth as I know it to
>be.

Frankly, based on a number of ridiculous assertions you made above, you are
totally incapable of judging whether this machine does what it claims to do.

>This does not preclude the possiblity that I have been lied
>to effectively or that I am deluding myself....but personally I
>dont think this is the case.

The evidence you've provided for us suggest otherwise.

>This is the type of thing where if you want to find out..YOU have
>to experience it..

Why?  Perhaps it IS simply the placebo effect.  This, like most other
verifiable claims, is the sort of thing where, if you want to find out, you
have to look at acual studies, done under controlled conditions.

>Bottom line here is: if you are REALLY curious..THEN YOU have to
>try it for yourself and see.....don't take anyone's word for
>something like this neither do not debunk what you dont know
>for sure to be true or false!

Yeah.  This is EXACTLY the spiel given by people selling perpetual motion
machines.  "No, I can't give you the specifications, and, no, you can't come in
and test the machine (it was working yesterday, but it seems to have broken; 
call back in a few months and you'll get the same story again).  If you want
one, you've got to pay me up front with absolutely NO evidence other than my
rather vague claims that it really DOES work."

John McCarthy:  This guy seems to live in the Bay area.  Why don't you sell him 
a bridge or two?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic