HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Folks, we don't we ... change subjects of discussion?
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:25:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw2G73.L5
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In response to Lambros Skartsis (ls1@cec1.wustl.edu) who responded to my
post directed to Andy Fear:

>Folks, yet another example of fruitless discussion


>Why don't we try to have some interesting, educating discussions, without
>passion? We are not going to convince anybody on "national" issues, let's
>face it. On the other hand, since we all are, more or less, educated
>people we have a lot to learn from one another. Some frictions are
>certainly anavoidable when history is involved but we certainly have to
>prevent threads from developing into fruitless long discussions like the
>above mentioned.  

>Opinions welcome!


>Best regards,
>L. Skartsis

Allow me to disagree on the main point you are raising here (but I do agree on
some secondary points).  We shouldn't give up discussing national and/or
political issues on this net.  This is an open forum where we can express our
differences, find out where we agree, and clear our illusions created
from the propagandas of our respective governments.  It is a forum where under
optimum conditions we can enlighten each other.  Even under the worse conditions
we don't run the danger to physically hurt each other!  I will agree
with you that the form of the discussions here is far from perfect (very far
indeed!)  Should we give up then?  I think not.  Do not pay much attention
to the fanatics of any side.  Giving up the discussion is like giving up to
those who with their messages are trying to cut the dialog.

To be more specific about my previous message, I know where Mr. A. Fear stands.
With my response I asked him some questions to clarify his positions.  They
were clear questions and I expect clear answers.  By allowing people like
Mr. Fear to perpetuate false impressions we prove the failure of this newsgroup.

I take no personal offense from your letter.  I just wanted to express the
"other" opinion.

Best Regadrs also,
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Information on Greece
Date: 8 Oct 92 03:42:08 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

nkoudour@lonestar.utsa.edu (Nathan D. Koudouris) writes:


>Hi

>I'm a Greek American living in the United States.  If you ever have lived
>in San Antonio, Texas you know that there is not much information in the news-
>papers about Greece.  I want to know exactly what is going on in Greece.
>I can't seem to get an objective story, on Usenet, explaining what is
>going on.  Will someone give me an objective story, and not criticize
>the other side?  I would greatly appreciate it.

 About which specific subject are you talking?  There are many things going
 on in Greece.  Please be more specific.


>                                                  Sincerely,

>                                                  Demosthenes Koudouris

 Panos Tamamidis
From: 2120788@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: greeks can't swim
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:01:18 GMT
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW

In article <1992Oct16.003152.16231@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>In article <9210141329.AA03762@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>> >back) during summer. Is it any wonder we can't swim?
>>
>>Panos wrote:
>>
>>> The "We" should be replaced by "Athenians."
>>
>>Most definitely :-). I've spent time in non-Athenian places (Nafplio,
>>Zakynthos) and these folks *really* know how to swim. No need for 
>>traffic jams, either...
>
>	Zakynthos :-) the bset place on earth (So I am objective :-)
>Actualy you don't need to know how to swim in Zakynthos. the last time I swam
>there was in a beach called Alikes and the water was so shallow that you could
>walk 100 meters from the beach and still be able to walk on sand !! The water
>was so clear that on the way to Zakynthos on the ship you could see to the bottom
>of the sea !! No wonder the Greek beaches were voted the best in Europe.
>
Zakynthos?!You obviously haven't seen the beauty that is Nauplio.The place
transcends mere beach status.As you may have guessed I am a new netter and have read some of the proceeding articles with great amusement/distress.The previous
day I believe one of our Turkish friends declared Greece to be over poluted,it
is amazing then that Greece won the blue & red flag competitions for being 
the least polluted tourist destinations in Europe(although I'll grant you Athensis included).
     Do any netters out there know why Turkiye continues to fly her warplanes
over the islands of Greece, I would sincerely enjoy reading diatribes about 
pacifist Turks........
                                      Dmitri
                                      UNSW
>
>>
>>Spiros
>
>	George
>
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:00:47 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <Bvsp2o.7Io@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
 writes:
>The star intrigues me. I've seen it on various objects from Macedonia.
>Does anyone know whether there is any written evidence of its being used
>as a special symbol, and if so, of what? Greek cities use symbols on
>coins - pretty well all of them had one. I think (I'll look it up if
>anyone is interested) that there is evidence that the Thebans used
>Heracles' club as a symbol, and that the Spartans used a capital lambda
>(for Lacedaemon) in the same way. That's about as far as I get. If we
>could exstablish that this characteristic star was a national or
>dynastic symbol, that would be a fascinating piece of evidence for the
>early development of something which might be the beginning of national
>identity. It seems to me that it is used quite often, and is often given
>prominence, which suggests that something is going on, but what?

True enough, the beginning of an identity - but in the same sense like that in
the cases of the Spartans or the Thebans. Certainly not any evidence of a
"national" identity, distinct from the general Greek.

>And why a star? Are we sure that it is a star? Might it be a stylised
>sun? How does ancient art represent stars? Or is it just a favourite decorative
>motif which was adopted for some reason?
>
>I'd be grateful for any information.

As far as I know, this is the Vergina Star, found in the excavations of the
Macedonian royal tombs in Vergina, Macedonia, Greece. It is not a sun - it is
a star with 16 rays. It is believed to be a dynastic symbol, which makes the
decision of the Skopjie government to use it in their flag even more telling
- betraying their effort to falsify history and associate themselves with
everything that Macedonia ever was - given the fact that even those who
dispute the Greekness of the ancient Mecedonian people do not dare dispute
the Greekness of the dynasty itself and even Gligorof admits, when pressed,
that Vardaris have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians whatsoever.

>
>Richard Wallace
>

regards,
Dimitris Kouvatsos

In article <Bvsp2o.7Io@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
 writes:

-- 
------------------------    "Avnr Ellnv basileus Makedovwv"
+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=    "[I am] Greek man king of the Macedonians"
<dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
------------------------                    -- Alexander III the Great
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9537 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9042 soc.culture.bulgaria:1488
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Date: 9 Oct 92 22:18:51 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <1992Oct09.203759.11104@annex2.cs.utex.edu> kiran@cs.utex.EDU (Mustafa Kiran) writes:
>   He maintains that for Macedonia to ``adopt a Greek name'' is a
>   ``provocation'' that ``implies territorial claims against us.''
>     Never mind that Macedonia's constitution explicitly disavows any such 
>   claim. Or that its army consists of about 6,000 ragtag troops armed 
>   with pistols and rifles, while Greece's is more than 25 times larger 
>   and is equipped with tanks, heavy artillary and jet fighters. ...

Unrebutted territorial claims are dangerous even if the country in question
doesn't happen to have troops at the moment.

And can anyone post the section of the Macedonia constitution disavowing claims
to Greek Macedonia?  Does it say "we don't claim Greek Macedonia", or does it
say phrases like "we don't claim territory of other countries" that can be
weaseled around?
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: news@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: Time Criticized??
Organization: University of New South Wales
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 04:29:16 GMT

In article 15OCT199213455747@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov, scgeoff@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (GEOFF ELLIOTT) writes:
>
>Well, well, well.
>
>So when you all don't like an article in Time you want to boycott it?
>
>Why do I feel that if an article would ever appear criticizing Turkey, you
>would accept it as the gospel truth?   Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm????
>
>Face the facts people:  If they want to be called Macedonia, you can't
>stop them.   How about if they call themselves NEW Macedonia?  Would
>that make you feel better?

It's a question of truth .

>
>Perhaps the small community of Berlin, Ohio should change it's name so
>as not to insult Germans?????????????????/

Different story, Berlin Ohio does not lie on the border of Germany and the people make no claims to Germany's land ,or worse ,Germans cultural heritage as a result. 

>Or maybe Athens, Ohio should change it's name too??   What do you think??

Same story with Athens ,Ohio , totally irrelevant to the situation in the Bulkans.

>Anxiously awaiting your flames people.  Fire away!

Conversely if say tommorrow the Mexicans decided to call their country Texas and refer to
themselves as Texans , would you be comfortable with that ?

I doubt it.

Your fellow Americans would be pretty worried.

>
>My views do not reflect my employer, NASA, or the US Government.  I do
>relect the views of rational, thinking, un-paranoid people.
>
From: lyrvas@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (vassilis lyroudis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: HOMO-GRECUS
Date: 7 Oct 92 13:35:25 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

Dear Sadik, it is not that difficult to understand us.  500 years of 
Turkish occupation and the fact that every Greek family lost a number
of its members to the Turks.  Add the bitterness for the land you 
occupied around Konstantinoupoli(Istanbul) for you, and you get the idea.
The reason we act so strange is that we don't have anything against an
individual Turk that we meet.  As a matter of fact, we have so many 
things in common in the way we think and enjoy life, that almost always 
whenever a Greek meets a Turk outside Turkey or Greece, they become 
friends.  It is your Government and establishment I guess that we hate, 
not the individual Turk.  But then again we usually hate our Government 
and Political establishment so it doesn't really make a difference.
Anyway, I can only asssure you for one thing, we would never start a war 
in the Aegean--we only have deffensive weapons in the islands--can you 
truly support the same for your side when the 4th Army  in Smyrni has the 
largest fleet of landing crafts in Europe? The reason I am saying this is 
that we are not just obsessed by the idea of a Turkish-Greek war, your 
military had something to do with the establishment of this threat.
Additionaly, since we think so much the same why don't you accept the 
fact that whatever you hear in Greece for the Turks you hear in Turkey 
for the Greeks? 
Anyway, having an enemy for life that you can really communicate and be 
friends with makes life that more exciting.
God and Jesus Christ bless us all. Allah ackbaar!
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:51:36 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <Bw0LKG.8FC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>Do you imply that Greece should just forget about Cyprus, so that 
>relations with neighbouring Turkey will be all "milk and honey" ?


 NEVER! Cyprus is a Greek populated island with a sizable Turkish
 minority which should be protected and respected as such, i.e.
 a MINORITY in a geographically indivisible island. Unfortunately,
 Turkey's still Ottoman  mentality, combound (initiated) with the divide 
 and conquer attitude of the (once upon a time "Great") imperial Britain,
 created this mess. Which is a mess for all: Greeks, Cypriots and Turks.
 (Estimate the losses in lives, in money (economy and military) and in 
 political blackmailing by the influencial countries (US, Britain)).

>> Similar things can be said for Greece, Bulgaria etc...)
>Can you be more specific on this.


 I'm thinking the present mentality of the population and of some
 political figures who inspire "Ottomanism". Both in internal and
 foreign aspirations matters, not in internal mistreatment of other
 people though (in contrast to the recently mistreated, ex-minority
 of Greeks in Turkey).


 Gr
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:29:36 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science


In <Bvsp2o.7Io@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:

>From article <Bvrp4v.7pF@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by pt8684@meibm5.cen.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis):
>> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>> 
>>>From article <BvpznF.K6L@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
>> 
>And why a star? Are we sure that it is a star? Might it be a stylised
                                                              ^^^^^^^^
>sun? How does ancient art represent stars? Or is it just a favourite decorative
 ^^^
>motif which was adopted for some reason?
> 
>I'd be grateful for any information.

The new Macedonian flag  has a STYLISED SUN with 16
arms. There have been months long debates about the
flag. I've posted a few sentences comparing it with
the symbol of University of Utrecht, Holland.
So it is no a star  (ok, is the sun a star or is it
not ?).

I cannot give you more accurate information, sorry.

>
>But no foul-mouthed abuse or tantrums please!
>
>Richard Wallace

Regards,
Goce.
From: papad@vtx.ma.man.ac.uk (Pythagoras Papadimitriou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: test - ignore it
Date: 15 Oct 92 11:46:03 GMT
Organization: The Outlaws

Keywords: 

Test - ignore it.
From: cza@troy.uucp (C. Akgun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: greek military
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:50:15 GMT
Organization: BCR, NJ-USA

In article <9210141610.AA04033@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>in a reptilian discussion, cza@troy.uucp (C. Akgun) writes:
>
>> Not at all, the raving lunatic.  You make my day when you start
>> comparing the Greek military successes against Turks,  [...]
>
>Why not compare, say, the military successes of the Greeks against,
>say, the Italians in WW2, or the Nazis in WW2 (how many OTHER countries
>held up against the Reich for that long?) with Turkiye's involvment
>in the same war?

Well.  If someone try to pick up an insult war, I will not sit 
idly by.  Mr. Tamamidis chose to engage his debates with me in
a personal level without my initiation,  He will get his
answers if he wants to continue this name calling game.

For you, I would say be my guest and compare whatever you want without 
getting too personal with me.  I will respect people's opinions and
convictions even though I may not agree with them.  I
should qualify by saying that "as long as" they will not generalize 
their views to insult a nation or a religion.  So other
than that, my disagreement with someone does not allow me to
get personal with that person.  I am perfectly cognizant of that.
I will expect the same respect from other people on my views and 
my opinions.  If this is not extended to me, I will return the same
medicine back rather than walk away.  Simple is that.  However, I 
draw the limit when the insults are escalated to the profanity.  
I can assure everyone here that I will ever and never resort to that 
(on the contrary of what we have seen time to time in this news group). 
I will also assure that I would not tolerate such a vile act by hiding 
behind the computer screen.

So back to your comparisions again.  Turkiye has not involved with 
WWII.  The WWI experience was more than enough.

>
>I believe both sides fought in the Korean war (I know Greece did send
>in some troops there, don't know about Turkiye). 

Yes, Turkiye was involved in the Korean war and lost almost a
thousand soldiers in vain.  Because none of the Koreans that I 
have met in USA who knows this fact.

>But today's Turkish
>army has had a lot more practice bombing Kurds with real ammunition...
>Greeks have to use blank rounds during practice...
>
>Spiros

Who says what is going on in Northern Iraq and
Southeastern Turkey is a military practice?  Like Mutlu
style, I should say that you must be privy to alot of insider
information than me.  Only thing that I know if someone shoots at you,
you would return it if you have a gun.  PKK has engaged border fight 
with Turkish military.  And they are getting what they had asked for. 
BTW, have you heard recently that Iraqi Kurds (Barzani/Talabani forces)
also started a war against their own brethern , which is the
Kurds in PKK camps located in Iraq soil?  Somehow they
know more than what you do.

C. Akgun

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:13:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BvvHn1.ED7
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:

>A Turkish Cypriot === member of a community of 120,000 (before 1974 that is)
>who suffered under the torture of a community of ~~~550,000 

 Poor Besime.  Cry as much as you can.  But your tears are like the crocodiles'
 tears.  Once you get close to the crocodile, he opens his mouth and then
 he does what Turkey did to the Cyprus.

 Perhaps, it would help you, if you would share with us the number
 of Turkish-Cypriots who have been left in Cyprus, excluding of course
 the imigrants who Turkey has moved to Cyprus. 

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Subject: Re: Akritas Plan
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:27:26 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College
Keywords: Palikaria, Akritas Plan, Enosis

In article <1992Oct15.223444.10208@en.ecn.purdue.edu>,
baysan@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Okan Baysan) writes:
>In article <Bw6E2M.9r5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine), responding to Sadi Turgut, writes:
>>
>>What is this "Akritas plan"?  You mentioned it in previous posts.  I have
>>never heard of it.  Can you post any details?
>
>Here it is. Read it and pound it in. 

This was posted before and as reference the "newspaper" Patris was given.
That was an unreliable rag not worth the paper it was printed on.
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
From: peter@alex (Peter Vafeades)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Test, Please Ignore
Date: 8 Oct 92 23:22:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: ringer.1992Oct8.232229.23498
Distribution: usa
Organization: Trinity University, San Antonio TX. USA

Test, please ignore
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: Albanians and Pseudo-Macedonia
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:26:38 GMT

gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:

> How about Greece. Why are we stack with Skopja in a new "Cyprus" type
> problem? Did our politicians believe that we could win this small dispute
> without any further created permanent trouble? I hope that they know
> what they are doing, and that we are not heading in a trap which the
> other "big" countries made for us (like the USAns trapped in 1974 the then 
> both Greek and Turkish government over the Cyprus question (who reme-
> mber Kissinger?), which now is a pus injury for *both* of the countries 
> (even though some of us believe otherwise...)).
I may be missing your point here so, let me just ask this:
Do you imply that Greece should just forget about Cyprus, so that 
relations with neighbouring Turkey will be all "milk and honey" ?

 (An example of how the
> Ottoman mentality survives in the Balkans is the Kurdish problem: the 
> turkish government has given to them as many political rights as the Ot-
> tomans had given to all of their ex-subjects; how long this can be continued?
> As long as the americans need them (last month 500 people were killed in
> fighting in Anatolia between Turkish and Kurdish forces; the american mass
> media prefer to present the atrocities of Saddam though only...) they
> can keep the publishity low; but if you visit any american university
> library you can see that they select information about the Kurds conti-
> nuousely while they have created organizations through which they have 
> sympathies to the revolted Kurds in Turkey too. Soon or later, when the
> american interests change their position toward Turkey will change accord-
> ingly; and then? One more "balkan" problem will have appeared! But how do
> the Turkish politico-military establishment react to these prospects? With
> exactly the same blind way which the late (not early) Ottomans did...
> (And the populace is manipulated accordingly such as to be willing to
> go to be killed over an already lost case...)
I absolutely agree with every single word.  Very nicely expressed.

> Similar things can be said for Greece, Bulgaria etc...)
Can you be more specific on this.

Do you mean that Greece/Bulgaria have same policies as Turkey?
Sorry if I missunderstood you points.
> Gr

-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign