From: beast@netcom.com (J. Kintscher)
Subject: Re: Sustainable lifestyles
Organization: Belle & Philippe, Pty. Ltd.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:55:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.003513.6450@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.225119.16722@netcom.com> beast@netcom.com (J. Kintscher) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct12.194732.25893@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
>>>Do you ? Do you know that I can grow 80% of my summer diet and about
>>>30% of a winter one on 300 square feet with less than 10 hours of work
>>>a week ? 
>>
>>More power to you.  Personally, I'd rather spend those ten hours doing
>>other things (eg intellectual pursuits and entertainment, which are not
>>mutually exclusive).  Also, you presuppose that everyone has 300 sq. ft. to
>>use for gardening.
>
>No. I didn't presuppose anything. I simply implied that I, like
>Jefferson, would be happier it if everyone *could* have 300 sq. ft to
>do so with if they chose, and that most people would choose to do so.

Why?  I don't particularly care for gardening, and I know I'm not alone in
this.  Those of us who are able to garden and choose not to (because they
don't like doing it or just plain choose not to because they'd rather spend
the time doing something else) like having the ability to indirectly trade
our labour in other areas for food. 

>>My measure of standard of living is how much leisure time one has when
>>compared to how much time is spent on day-to-day survival.
>
>So what's leisure time ? I don't see a distinction between "work" and
>"play" in what I do (which makes me extraordinarily fortunate), so *I'd*
>have to define it as things that I don't *have* to do to stay alive.
>I'd like to claim that under the social system I'm trying to imagine,
>you'd have more leisure time by this definition that you do right now.
>If you can offer an alternate definition that makes sense in a society
>that doesn't divide human activity into work & play, I'm all ears.

Basically, I see leisure time as time spent doing what you want to do, not
what you have to do.  I don't try to make a distinction between "work" and
"play".  Some people enjoy gardening, toolmaking, etc., and spend some of 
their leisure time doing it.  I enjoy spending some of my leisure time
making computers do interesting things, some of which I get paid for, the
rest I don't.  I still enjoy doing it either way.  My wife spends her day
"playing" with toddlers and sees it as hard work and not something she
wants to do during her leisure time, so, it falls under day-to-day
survival since it helps to pay the bills.  What's work and what's play is 
all in the eye of the beholder. 
 
>							    We are
>>performing intellectual discourse using some fairly complex "electronic
>>widgets".  These "electronic widgets" give me acess to a whole world of
>>people to discuss ideas with I wouldn't otherwise have acess to.
>
>Indeed. And the only way I can justify this to myself is to believe
>that such activity is not mutually exclusive with the world in which I
>would like to live. I don't know if this is self-deception, or actual
>truth. Many concerned with Silicon Valley politics would tell me that
>its a deception. Perhaps they're crazy. Perhaps I should listen more.
>Who can tell ?
>
>-- paul

-- Jeff -- one of those nuts in Silicon Valley


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Kintscher	 | "Now, my suspicion is that the universe is not only
beast@netcom.com     	 |  queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can
			 |  suppose. . . . I suspect that there are more things
"No matter where you go, |  in heaven and earth than are dreamed of,  in any
 there you are."	 |  philosophy."
			 |				J. B. S.  Haldane
	Buckaroo Bonzai	 |				Possible Worlds
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