HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens)
Subject: Re: An alternative theroy about dreaming
Organization: Labtam Australia Pty. Ltd., Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:56:18 GMT

Michael Turner writes:

>[Hobson] is only suggesting that the *source* of dreams has no intrinsic
>meaning, not that the dreams themselves are meaningless. 

  If this is the case, at which level does the meaning appear, and where does
that meaning come from?

  Or to put it another way, if you pull apart a meaningful dream only to
discover that the components are meaningless, don't you think you're making a
mistake in assuming the dream is reducible in the first place?

  Or to put it a third way, isn't Hobson making a mistake to start with the
meaningless components and assume that they add up to a meaningful whole?

  Or to put it a fourth way, how can you correlate the meaningless components
with the meaningful dream if a random process is the only "connection"?

  Or to put it a fifth way, show me proof that the brain collects random
stimulus and fills in the gaps to generate a meaningful dream sequence, and
I'll tip my hat to you...

-- 
| Philip Stephens, Systems Programmer. | %%%%  %     Labtam Australia Pty Ltd |
| Address:  43 Malcolm Road, Braeside, |   % % % %     "Applied Ingenuity"    |
|           Victoria, 3195, AUSTRALIA. |  %  % %  %  We make the fastest RISC |
| Internet: philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au | %%%%% %%%%% X terminals in the world | 
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: RE:flight
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:17:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.190303.20374@yang.earlham.edu> marcs@yang.earlham.edu (Marc Seebass(Thunderbolt)) writes:
>In article <4NOV199219484090@rosie.uh.edu>, st1fa@rosie.uh.edu (GREETINGS FROM THE LONE STAR STATE) writes:
>> 
>> 	I've had many dreams, especially when I was little.  That if I could
>> just run and jump up into the air, I would be able to fly.  I loved the 
>> sensation too.  I'm envious...I haven't had a flying dream in 7 years.
>
>Same here, I hear they represent freedome and or the ability to escape reality.
>I haven't had one in a whle, but they do occur.
>
>---Marc Seebass

Much of the appeal of lucid dreaming for me is that I get to have more
flying dreams.  It's a typical way to test if you're dreaming.  It's
hard for me to stop flying and get on to other experiments, because I
like it so much.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: ebail@ctp.com (Erik Bailey)
Subject: New Users
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:46:35 GMT

In article <BxIou7.3H2@acsu.buffalo.edu> v067s2qs@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (John P Demarco) writes:
>    sorry  
>this is just a test. i've been reading alt.dreams   for a few weeks now and
>find it to be very interesting.
>  just out of curiosity   how do you post??? 
>i tried to post my own message and i ended up right under GARY
>
>  please excuse my non-understanding of this process- i'm just a virgin at this
>
>    thanks i advance
>      john de marco        e-mail   v067s2qs@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

Subscribe to newsgroup news.announce.newusers (you should also be
subscribed to news.announce.important). This will help you get on your
feet. Also, look at the manual for your newsreader (if you are on Unix, and
are using rn, type "man rn") since that will give you some good info.

Welcome to the net! --Erik

-- 
Erik Bailey   | Cambridge Technology Partners      | The usual disclaimer
              | 304 Vassar St., Cambridge MA 02139 | applies: this post is
ebail@ctp.com | (617) 374-8418                     | mine, not my employer's.
      /earth is 98% full; please remove any excess inhabitants.
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: 0695cs14@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Silicon Vulture)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: Precognitve dreams
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:29:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston-Downtown
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41A
X-Lunar-Date: 1 day, 2 hours, 46 minutes since the full moon

In article <1992Nov10.024333.104@news.unomaha.edu>, phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu
(Shannon Chris Saltzman) writes...

>I dont think you understand.
>This is not a blessing.Let me give you an example.
>In pandoras box(greek mythology) were several plagues.
>All but one escaped. The last one was one of negative divinaion(bad
> Things happening in the future that you know about)
>Anyway they said if it had escaped we wouldnt be here cause we 
>cant live without hope. Case and point.

But some people in Greek mythology did have the ability to see the
future (i.e. Tireseus).  Precognition does not necessarily imply
only knowing bad things that will happen to you.

>This stuff sucks....dirt(yeah thats the word)
>Anyway I dont believe MY God would give me this.

If you're Christian or Jewish, your God has given this gift to others.

>Or stick me with this anyway.
>That is why Ive considered it evil for so long .
>Maybe you will still see it as a blessing,feel free to argue.

You don't want it.  I don't want it.  It's not evil, just undesirable
to many of us.  I don't want cold coffee, but I don't try to convince
myself (or others) that cold coffee is evil.

I would call precognition a gift instead of a blessing.  I'm sure
you've received gifts from friends and relatives that were things
that you didn't particularly want.

  |  Silicon Vulture         |  "I wish I were as lucky as Rip Van  |
  |  0695cs14@dt3.dt.uh.edu  |   Winkle."                           |
From: 002369c@ace.acadiau.ca (WILLIAM FREDERICK CUSTANCE)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Dreams based on books
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:09:58 GMT
Organization: Acadia University

That reminded me of when I used to read All of the time. I alsoremenber 
dreamingabout the book by having mental images. Espesially onbook in 
particular. I dreampt the whole book. I think it was something like:
"The Maxe in the Heart of the Castle".
Post your dream, I like to hear it!
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Dream Experiment '92...
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:24:32 GMT

In article <1952@lysator.liu.se> marvil@lysator.liu.se (Martin Vilcans) writes:
>I think it would be fun and interesting doing the experiment again. I'm new to
>this newsgroup, and I'm not a very good dreamer, but I have noticed that
>since I started reading this group, I seem to remember my dreams more often,
>so I seem to be learning. But who wants to organize the whole thing? I could
>do it, but I think an American would do it better (because of language
>problems etc.).
>

Ok, well, let this be an official call.  Anyone who is interested in doing
this, please email me or post here.  We will need the following:

Ideas of a "place" to meet in dreams.  Either somewhere we can all get to
or something that can "travel around" like the train (and the phone booth -
was that a banana-shaped Tardis, maybe?)  :)  Maybe an airplane this time???

Someone (or several people) to be a "third party."  The third party is not
really supposed to participate in going to the dream place, since they
are the one verifying everyone's accounts of what happened in their dreams.
The way this works (for anyone who hasn't figured it out yet) is that
you try to dream of the place, and when you get there, you interact with
people and you can look at/leave objects there.  _Don't_ post your dreams
to the Net -- give the descriptions of the interactions & objects you left/saw
to the "third party" who will look for & try to get more information about
possible correlations.  (When a correlation is found, the third party can,
at their discretion, post the results, preferably the email messages
from each of the people involved...)

Someone to organize it.  Looks like I've picked up that job.  :)

Lots of people to participate!

Ok, so what does everyone think???

angelai@wam.umd.edu
From: alan.neal@madness.network23.com (Alan Neal) 
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:54:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Terminal Madness BBS - Newport, RI - 401-848-9069
Reply-To: alan.neal@madness.network23.com (Alan Neal) 

  ( This is not about peoples dreams. i.e. sleeping at any rate)
  ( but the fulfillment of their dreams)
  Do you have enough time?
 Are you trying to achieve a goal and don't seem to have the money?
 Do you want to help your family and yourself to reach these dreams?
 If these things apply to you then I can open a door to you that can
change your life.
Post me Email and leave your phone ## I'd like to talk to you in person
and help you to acheive those dreams
                                              
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: ae815@yfn.ysu.edu (Marc Queen)
Subject: here's one...
Reply-To: ae815@yfn.ysu.edu (Marc Queen)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 01:13:28 GMT


a litlle history on myself: i like bicycling and frisbee
now, that explains a couple things in my dream.  There's one thing i 
can't figure out, though.

setting: rural south central ohio where i'm from & where i've ridden a lot

the dream:
it's late afternoon, nice day, warm, kinda hazy.  i get on my bike and 
leave my house, thinkin' i'll be back by dark.  i just ride down whatever
road comes along.  i cross over an old bridge on a road that i've actually
seen before, but only in my dreams.  the road begins to follow the crest of
a ridge similar to the landscapes from home.  i come up to a campground of
some sort bustling with activity.  there's about an hour or so left of
daylight.  i've been to this place before, in my dreams.  the road is at
the top of the ridge with tall trees to the east and the campsite to the
left.  the campsite is actually a loooonnnng narrow bungalow of sorts.  the
people are still arriving as if something exciting will happen tonight.
they park their cars right next to the building.  some new arrivals are
friends of mine.  the mother of the family invites me in to their "room".
when i get in, i see that almost all of the west side of the bldg is open
to the outside (sort of like box seats at a stadium) and there aren't any 
walls separating one room from the next.  i look down this "hallway" and
see people waving and talkin to each other.  "mom" is frying potatoes on
the stove.  there are also lots of people with tents set up outside.  i 
guess they can't afford a "room".  there are a lot of children, young and
old, outside throwing frisbees on the long gradual sloping hillside that's
located between the long narrow bldg and the western horizon.  something--
a feeling/premonition--tells me to be on my way.  i turn down the meal that's 
almost done.  i go outside, very little daylight left.  i get on my bike.
as i'm about to leave, "mom" and a few others come out and say, "but aren't
you goin to stay and watch?"  i realize that all those people are there
to watch the sun set because i can tell that that large summer sun is goin
to make a picture perfect sunset.  there's a strange aura around the place.
i say good-bye and ride east down the dark roads home.

that's it.  now, after i had woke up, i got to thinkin'...
ya don't suppose these were travelers left behind?
it makes perfect sense that they would choose some ideal spot and wait there
at some specific time every year (this wasn't like a weekly thing) for their
"loved ones" to come pick them up.  well, i just thought it was kinda neat
'cause i haven't been thinkin about ufo's or aliens.  and it wasn't until
after i had the dream that i thought about aliens.  

i hope i've wasted your time in such a way that it wasn't wasted,
elvy
-- 
marc s queen  419-634-8013  115 1/2 s main ada oh 45810
4th yr pharmacy student at ohio northern university
founder of onu ultimate frisbee
From: 9210466@ul.ie
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: crash...
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:10:18 GMT
Followup-To: alt.dreams
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Nov3.135242.13079@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz) writes:
> Now, you can blame the reason on anything, and you can write in big
> letters COINCIDENCE over it, but two days ago I dreamed of a train
> crash (something like that famous movie ending with a train crashing
> into Chicago central station - uh-oh, forgot the title again ;-) and
> when I awoke and listened to the news broadcast, and they told about
> a severe railway accident in Pakistan some hours ago, I sat straight
> up in my bed, I can tell. Oh, well.
> 
> 
> MfG,
>         Olaf
> -- 
>     o     Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student - univ of karlsruhe - germany
>  _ /<_    s_titz@iravcl.ira.uka.de - uknf@dkauni2.bitnet - praetorius@irc
> (_)>(_)   +49-721-60439 - did i forget something?
> He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. - Shakespeare, Caesar
- Just a question Olaf.. Did you have the radio on while you were sleeping?
 If so it could have been some sort of dream state suggestion..

 Just a thought..

- John    9210466@ul.ie     University of Limerick, Ireland.
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: clint@matia.Stanford.EDU (Jennifer Dole)
Subject: Re: Who did OBE research? (was Re: Statistics.)
Organization: Psychology Dept, Stanford Univ.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 19:55:51 GMT

In article <031936.18496@tcsi.com> miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.) activated:
>
>LaBerge has done some fairly extensive OOBE experiments.  He had people "leave
>their bodies" and go look at things hidden away at specified destinations,
>and return to report on what they'd seen.  Despite getting statistically
>valid amounts of sample data, there was no significant correlation of the
>reports: everybody saw different things.  Many of the test subjects believed
>implicitly in OOBE, and many of these people *still* do.  None are so blind as
>those who will not see -- or see that they CAN'T see, I guess.  LaBerge was
>disappointed in these results, but seemed resigned to them, at least from
>what I read.

>Michael Turner

Hold up there! You must have misinterpreted a part of the book
_Lucid_Dreaming_. Stephen LaBerge did NOT do the "fairly extensive 
OOBE experiments" that you describe. I believe you are thinking 
of the OBE investigations of Karlis Osis, to which LaBerge only
refers, in his book, _Lucid_Dreaming_. I quote from chapter nine,
page 245: 

"First of all we have the summary of Karlis Osis, Director of
Research at the American Society for Psychical Research. This
society, in an effort to produce evidence for survival after
death, undertook an extensive investigation of OBE perception. 
In the course of the study, approximately a hundred subjects,
all of whom believed they were proficient in inducing OBEs and 
possessed paranormal perceptual abilities during OBEs, were
tested under controlled conditions. While confined to one room,
the subjects induced OBEs and "visited" a distant target room,
attempting afterward to describe in detail what they had "seen" 
while there. A comparison of their reports with the actual
contents of the target room revealed, in all but a few cases,
absolutely no indication of any correspondence whatsoever. In 
other words, in the great majority of these cases, there was no
evidence supporting acurate OBE perception or the validity of
the subjects' convictions that they had actually left their bodies.
Moreover, these subjects were described by Osis as being "the
creme of the claimants" of OBEs. I believe the results of this 
study strongly support my "OBE as misinterpreted lucid dream"
theory."

From: Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D., _Lucid_Dreaming_, Ballantine, 1985.   

Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: Flying,hands,etc
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:34:15 GMT

In article <002369c.44.721413993@ace.acadiau.ca> 002369c@ace.acadiau.ca (WILLIAM FREDERICK CUSTANCE) writes:
>							....I looked down 
>at my hands, and one was fine, but the other was blurry. I found it no 
>problem to look at my hands, but how the hands looked was the only problem.
>If I looked out of only my right eye, everything was fine, but if I opened 
>the left eye, my left hand was blurred. The opposite happened when I looked 
>out of my left eye to start off. But I played around with this for some 
>time. And just when I thought I had overcame the problem, I closed both 
>eyes, opened my right. Everything was great. Opened my left eye. 
>My hands fused into one slightly larger than normal hand. It had lines 
>runing from the tipps all the way to the wrist, and I got fed up by this 
>point. And left the dream.

This interests me a lot, partly because this is the first I've heard of
looking through one eye or the other in a dream.  In a dream, there is
no reason to blink--no physical eyes that are drying out, no reflexes.
I seldom think of something like "closing my eyes" in a dream, though I
think LaBerge mentions this somewhere.

I'd be interested, also, in whether intentional eyelid motion in dreams has
an external physical correlate, as eye-movement so obviously does.

Another thing I don't know about is breath control.  I'm usually not
aware of breathing in dreams.  And when I am, it's often some acute
sensation, such as feeling stifled, that, upon waking, has no physical
obvious physical correlate.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: I SEE LIGHTS...
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:47:44 GMT

In <1992Nov11.213347.21875@nrtpa038.bnr.ca> Tarzan writes:

> In article <1992Nov5.183358.18050@gnosys.svle.ma.us> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
> (Gary S. Trujillo) writes (re hypnagogia):

> >I don't think this subject is relevant to our discussion, though, and suggest
> >followups be posted to alt.dreams.

> Gary,  I have to dissagree.   There are many separation techniques which
> involve the use and control of hypnogogic imagery.   Once in the hypnogogic
> state it is supposedly much easier to separate.   If this news group is going
> to try to censor every bit of related (as I see it) information  we're not
> going to get very far...

There's no censorship involved here, just a suggestion that hypnagogia, as a
separate and distinct phenomenon from OBE seemed more akin to the subjects
covered in alt.dreams.  HOWEVER, in reading up a bit more on hypnagogia, I
discovered the relationship which you cite, so my view is now changed.  (See,
I can be reasonable on occasion! )  That relationship had not been made clear
in the original question, that's all.  I posted another article which made
the connection and quoted extensively from the Mavromatis book (_Hypnagogia_)
on the relationship which I now acknowledge.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: 002369c@ace.acadiau.ca (WILLIAM FREDERICK CUSTANCE)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: This type of dream...
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:05:03 GMT
Organization: Acadia University

May I ask a simple question?
Here goes anyways...Have you ever had a fever dream?
I mean the type of dream when you have a fever and in the dream you 
hallucinate and excperience scary stuff. It's almost like your awake, 
because the surroundings are real, but you ARE dreaming. One typ of fever 
dream that I have had, includes watching the cieling and walls, and strips 
peel off and collect like a snowball rolling down a hill.
And often there are mice. Hundreds of damn mice! Anyway there may also be a 
droneing noise accompanied with these dream that gets rather annoying.
I haven't had one of these dreams since I was in juniorhigh, with a high 
fever.
Any comments...?
From: s_titz@ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: alt.dreams in my head
Date: 10 Nov 1992 17:24:52 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft math/inf, Uni Karlsruhe, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: irau30.ira.uka.de
Summary: Great! Don't claim USENET serves no purpose any more! :-)

In article <1992Nov9.162146.1498@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu> teschultz@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu writes:

>      A few nights ago I had a dream where I had the feeling I was
>lucid but upon waking I could clearly tell that I had mearly thought I
>was lucid. My minds feeling of lucidity was mearly a creation of my
>dream and not truly a conscious thought. The moment I dreampt(sp? is

??? either you know that you're dreaming, or you don't. While I agree
that lucidity is not an on/off issue, 'semi-lucid' having a meaning, I
can't imagine that you're *thinking you're dreaming that yo're lucid
dreaming*. A little twisted ;-)

>this a real word?) that I became lucid, a boy ran up to me and I 
>thought " I will change him into a girl" and it worked. This is a 
>direct result of the thread I've been reading in this group about
>this very thing.  Then I decided to go fly (I have flown many times 

Yup, it works :-)

A proof of evidence that knowing and active thinking of lucid dreams
helps in actually getting lucid dreams.

I can confirm that my getting involved in this discussion matter
helped my lucid dreaming too.

>...
>I went to highschool with and work with. I told her that I was dreaming
>and that she was here in my dream, all with the idea this could be a
>good dream experiment.

:-)  Well...

>   In both of these dreams the "decisions" I made and my feeling of
>"lucidity" were totaly dreamed and not actually counsciously made :(.

now what is 'totally dreamt'? [I *guess* this is the right spelling,
but anyone with a dictionary may correct me (but not via personal
mail, I'm getting too much of it anyway ;-)]
Dreaming *is* consciousness, and the degree of control you have over
your dreams may be a different thing, but 'dreamt and not consciously'
seems a bit contradictory to me... like your dreams were controlled
from outside. (Abandon this thought completely - your dreams are YOURS
- and your feeling about your dreams may perhaps improve further.)

olaf
-- 
| Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student  |   o     | uknf@dkauni2.bitnet | old address |
| univ. of karlsruhe - germany |  _>\ _  | s_titz@ira.uka.de   | is still    |
| +49-721-60439                | (_)<(_) | praetorius@irc      | valid       |
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Subject: Re: Precognitve dreams
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:43:33 GMT

I dont think you understand.
This is not a blessing.Let me give you an example.
In pandoras box(greek mythology) were several plagues.
All but one escaped. The last one was one of negative divinaion(bad
 Things happening in the future that you know about)
Anyway they said if it had escaped we wouldnt be here cause we 
cant live without hope. Case and point.
This stuff sucks....dirt(yeah thats the word)
Anyway I dont believe MY God would give me this.
Or stick me with this anyway.
That is why Ive considered it evil for so long .
Maybe you will still see it as a blessing,feel free to argue.

-- 
"Is doggie heavan kitty hell?"
     Stephanie Phoenix(age 6)
={}={}={}={}={}={}={}={}={}={}={}