From: jlinder@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jeffrey S Linder)
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:32:45 GMT

From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
7 Sep 1992 16:01:39 GMT
7 Sep 1992 16:01:39 GMT




JSL:jlinder@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  Sep 1992 16:01:39 GMT
AW:awerling@nmsu.edu :

JSL:Freshman usually means a first-year student and it is
    usually used to refer to a first year student.  So what
    is your point?  If you feel that it only refers to male
    students than I suggest you have the problem.

AW: Jesus!  I *never*ever*ever* inferred that "Freshman" 
    only includes male students.  The word *man* is what I 
    was referring to, in response to an argument about 
    entymology (what "Mann" means in German).  The word 
    "freshman" refers to "first-year student," no kidding.  
    But it is also decidedly male in the word's gender.  It 
    carries with it a message that women (wow...another 
    male-gendered word) are sort of new to the club, and not 
    really a part of the mainstream.

There seems to be some confusion about "man" and "Mann" in 
German.  "Mann" is male gender and means a male person, 
usually an adult. "man" means one or you and is not gender 
specific.

[from previous post]
AW: Man in English is male, in any context.  We as a society 
    are very gender conscious when we look at language, so 
    this Freshman thing is very important.

Let me see if I understand you:
1) Man, in English, is male in any context.
2) Freshman refers to first-year students.
3) You never infered anything else about #2.
4) Freshman is decidedly male in the word's gender.
5) Freshman somehow idicates that women are not really 
mainstream freshman. 



[DELETED SOME EXAMPLES OF WORDS WITH "man"]
 

AW: These refer to people.  Kind of makes them different.  
    They are *labels,* and labels are important.  If you are 
    officially a woman, it means your label infers you are a 
    type of man.  But if you are officially a man, your 
    label means you *are* a man, no type involved.  Well, 
    dear, it *is* a serious issue, with or without your 
    decree.

Woman means that you are female human.
Man means you are male human.
Mankind refers to humans.
Most of us can make that distiction very easily.  Some 
people see the letter "MAN" and freak out.

JSL:As long as people take such a ridiculous view of lan-

    guage then I will not take them serioulsy.
 
AW: That's nice, Jeff.  Rather than being mature about this 
    and engaging in a conversation about language, you 
    prefer to engage in demeaning the argument.  There's 
    nothing ridiculous about it.  It just infuriates you, 
    because you know there's at least a kernal of truth in 
    it.  If not, prove it to be false!  If so, admit it!  If 
    you still think it's just ridiculous, not to be taken 
    seriously, then shut up about it!  It obviously 
    *doesn't* concern you.


I am not demenaing your arguemnents, I am refuting them.  If 
you can show that what you say is true than I will admit 
that words like "freshman" somehow apply only to males. It 
is ridiculous to apply meanings to words that do not apply.  
There is no "kernal of truth" in you arguements.  To ask 
someone to prove the negative is also ridiculous.  It con-
cerns me when people will take things out of context and use 
them to advance their cause.  It also concerns me when 
people try to infer labels upon me because I use words like 
freshman, chairman, mankind, policeman and assume that I am 
somehow refering to males only.  I will suggest once again 
that it is people who see only the letters "MAN in a word 
and assume that anyone who uses or condones the use of that 
word is sexist, are the ones with a problem.

Jeff.