From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:55:36 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#3080

Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:10:42 GMT

>>> <pregnant pause>  Could it be that wearing the blue thread makes
>>>                   you guys easier to spot in a crowd??
>>
>>You didn't answer the question.  Now that you've had your pregnant pause, are
>>you admitting that Messianic Jews are Jews, and JEWISH?
> 
>Perhaps you've been taking logic courses from Harvey Smith, or
>mind-reading from Uri Geller, because I don't know how you're making
>those deductions.  I never said that wearing tzitzis makes one Jewish.
>What I meant was that I favor Messianics[sic] voluntarily adopting
>practices which make them appear distinctive.  That makes it harder
>for them to maintain their facade of practicing Judaism and "pass"
>in regions where blue tzitzis are rare.

Well, I have to admit you've lost me here.  But never mind.

>>Are *YOU* willing to concede that it is an entirely JEWISH view to believe
>>the scripture passages discussed earlier are referring to the Messiah (even
>>if you don't happen to believe Yeshua is the Messiah)?
> 
>Your typical Christian fundamentalist theological perspective makes it
>difficult for you to accept the idea of accepted pshat [simple
>understanding] versus rejected pshat and drush.  The idea of "entirely
>JEWISH view" doesn't make sense.  If you look hard enough, you can
>probably find fifty interpretations on each verse, and an aggada or
>two.  But what counts is how widely accepted the interpretation is
>among those whose greatness in Torah learning is acknowledged.  The
>idea that Is 53 refers to a future messiah is not the accepted view.

Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the rejection
of Yeshua as Messiah.

>L'havdil, you can probably find a number of Democrats who sympathize
>completely with Operation Rescue, but you can't call their position an
>"entirely DEMOCRAT PARTY view" since few who define party policy hold
>that belief.

Good analogy!  Because the present "Democratic" Party bears as little
(maybe even less) resemblance to the Democratic Party of a few decades
ago as Rabbinic Judaism does to Biblical Judaism.  Thus, I could (but
won't) find you any number of opinions of historically mainstream
Democrats which modern "Democrats" would say are not views representative
of the Democratic Party.

You ought to hear the speech Hubert Humphrey gave on family values and
the breakdown of the family merely 30 years ago.  It was practically
word for word what Dan Quayle has been saying, for which Quayle has
earned the undying hatred and relentless ridicule and has been
relentlessly attacked by modern "Democrats" (a real misnomer!).  Yes,
your analogy is *very* good!  I couldn't have thought of a better one!

>>> Also, I haven't seen any comments from Messianics on Maccoby's
>>> book on Paul as mythmaker.  Nu?
>>
>> A book I have never read, and never will read, and will thus never be
>> commenting on.  And this has nothing to do with answering my question.
> 
>My turn:
> 
>Again, you failed to answer.  Maybe you're squirming because it's
>becoming obvious how untenable your position has been all this time.
>So, I ask you again: why won't you read Prof. Maccoby's book?  He
>presents a very favorable portrayal of Jesus.

Irrelevant again.  (But then, I don't think you've read Mike Brown's
book, which presents a very favorable portrayal of Jews.)

I think every objective reader of this newsgroup has recognized by now
that the point has been made, and you have confirmed it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany