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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:17:02 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Satan Who is this guy ?
              "A16905@ITESO.BITNET" at Sep 30, 92 11:48 am

>
>So Ian,
>
>You say that Satan is not diverse from human nature, it is a part of our
>selves ?
>
>Shalom,
>Memo.
>
Memo, I realised afterwards that I had misread your last option..

Yes Satan is diverse from Human Nature.. Satan is a created being in his
own right.



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:34:45 MET
From:         "(Frank Bechhaus)" <bechhaus@LUCKY.LION.DE>
Subject: Re: Satan Who is this guy ?
              at Sep 29, 92 11:28 am

> A) A spiritual being that tries to drive me out of the Way, the Truth and
>    the Life.
> B) Same as A) but this being is 'personal'.
> C) Same as B) but this personal being is also totaly diverse fron human
>    nature, this is, it is not a component of our own human nature.

My choice is C: A spiritual, personal being, wanting to drive people away
from the Way, the Truth and the Life, existing diverse from the human na-
ture (as opposed to "the evil within men"). What about you, Memo ?

Frank

<><
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:34:07 EDT
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Why did Christ die?

Jesse,
   I apparently did not make myself clear in that last posting. The
human body of Jesus Christ died when He was crucified. What I meant
to say was that He died of His own volition. I think that was indicated
when the soldiers were going to break His legs to hasten the dying
process and found that He was dead all ready. I meant to say that He
surrendered His life voluntarily and that if He had not, there was no
power that could have taken it from Him. His love for us was demon-
strated in His willingness to die for us. Sorry to be misleading.
                                                     In Christ,
                                                     Claude Garner
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X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:38:49 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Right Standing with God?

I believe D is the correct answer.  A is impossible to do because we,
as humans, were made imperfect and we all have fallen short of God's
glory.  (I don't know the exact quote, but it's in Romans.)

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:48:42 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Satan...Who is this guy ? My answer

I posted this 3-choise question:

Who is Satan ?

A) A spiritual being that tries to drive me off the Way, the Truth and the
   Life, Jesus Christ.
B) Same that A) but this being is personal.
C) Same that B) but this personal being is totaly diverse from human nature.

What do you think and what strength do you use in the answer ?

MY ANSWER:

All statementes are true, but A) is certian, B) is most surely correct and C)
is probable.

A) is certian because of the experience of all of us says so.
B) is surely correct because of all the Scripture talking about it, it is
   very unlikely that this evil force is not personal and all the Scripture
   is fugurative or metaphorical.
C) is probable because of a combinations of experience, Scripture and opinion
   of very spiritual scholars that have explained evil in terms of a totaly
   diverse from human nature being called the devil.

The history of Satan being a fallen angel is in an Apocriphal book "Enoch
the Etiope" so it should not be taken as a Scriptural Truth, but it deserves
some respect (as C.S. Lewis books have among many christians).

But let's forget about it, our Faith is in God and in Jesus Christ, His
only begotten Son and our Savior and Lord. To Him Glory and Honour for
ever and ever. AMEN !

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 22:04:48 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rush ( was Re: Bush/Clinton/Politics)

Nabil:

Yes, Rush is a Christian.  And he's one of the few media commentators
that doesn't make fun of Christians.

Rather refreshing, that.

Love INC,

--Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:07:22 GMT

In article <23SEP92.14579293.0012.MUSIC@FERRIS> YA67@FERRIS.BITNET (carol nemec) writes:
>Jesus died for our sin, only a perfect man could do that for us,
>and only God could be perfect.  God must love us dearly to go
>through hell for us sinners.
>
>Carol Nemec


AMEN and AMEN

Iain Campbell


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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:16:43 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              25 Sep 1992 21:15:30 GMT from <billc@HOUSING.MSSTATE.EDU>

Dear Bill Chapman ;

I agree with you that only the elect will be saved.
Interestingly enough the situation for the non-elect is a bit more
exacerbated for them than possessing a sinful obdurate nature and
zero desire to serve God.
The added element, as I perceive the Word saying, is that the devil has
blinded the minds of those who are perishing to boot!


Bill, you know that Tom Brewer, Dan Graham and I are Calvinists,  do you
not??


In Jesus Christ' Sovereign Grace;


Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:52:05 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Right Standing with God?

Jesse,

IMHO,  B produces C and both produce A and all three, together, are what
God wants from us.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:24:50 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Confused Catholicism
              1 Oct 1992 15:51:28 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Steve C.:

>  I'd be interested in seeing the history of this church.  Where was
> it before the Reformation?

Jerusalem, Judea and unto the uttermost parts of the Earth.

Tom Brewer
From: mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Rush, a Christian?
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:21:31 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

In <CHRISTIA%92092807432828@ASUACAD.BITNET> KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson) writes:

>What you have missed is Rush's sense of humor.  He is a Christian.  He
>is also a social satirist.  He is not a Nazi.

Sorta like Steve "I Want to Be a Clone" Taylor with an attitude? :)
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:21:41 PDT
From:         ng910@TWINS.PNL.GOV
Subject: Re: Old response to Michael Kline

Rules are one thing, ethical conscious is another, and personnal salvation is
a third.  Many people disregard all religion, not just christianity, out of
a feeling that it is not "scientifically provable".  Well that is true,
but if you honestly have respect for the legal system, then I suggest that
you pick up and read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell -
He is now a Christian, but he started writing in order to disprove
Christianity on the Basis of what is called Historical Legal Proof.  This
is the same criteria used to prove any legal issue and any historical fact.

I am a scientist, so my comming to believe in Christ was very hard for me
because I started with unintentional presuppositions about certain aspects
of what I thought of as reality. If you claim to have an open mind, you
can not take this sort of stand, Mr McDowell's book opened up that fact
for me.  Try reading it, it may change you life, or it may give you more
evidence to go against people who feel that Rules and Regulations are not
enough - either way you come out on top.

Your Brother in Christ (like it or not)

Dave
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:51:54 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ian & the Death Penalty & Forgiveness
              Lahetta" at Sep 29, 92 12:46 pm

>
>Ian,
>   Here's a mental exercise for you.
>
[mental excersise deleted]
>
>
>This isn't suppose to sway your opinion on killing crooks, but I just
>wondered if the statement  about salvation in this post matched up
>with the rest of your beliefs.  Do you know what I mean?
>
>
>Carl----------+
>
Carl,
I am not ashamed to admit that I am not fully formed in all my doctrinal
points of view yet ( i probably wont until Jesus comes again). One
of the things I am not sure is whether or not God forcefully gives everyone
a 'chance at salvation' first before they die, or is it the churches
responsibility as the arm and legs of God on earth to provide that
'change at salvation'??????.

Jesus charged US the church to go throughout the earth making disciples
of all men, he did not say sit back because I am going to do it all for you.
He also indicated that we can speed his return by taking the Gospel to every
nation AND THEN the end will come.

Its a very strange and difficult point to come to terms with Carl, thanks
for bringing it up. I really do not have the answers to them.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
From: bw462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bucky Whaley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Rush, a Christian?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 16:50:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bw462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bucky Whaley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson) says:

>What you have missed is Rush's sense of humor.  He is a Christian.  He
>is also a social satirist.  He is not a Nazi.

Oh.  Thanks for the clue.  I didn't realize the stream of abuse, venom,
and general mean-mindedness RL directs at everyone who isn't Just Like
Him (TM) was all in fun.  

Gandhi was right.  We would all be Christians were it not for the 
Christians.

>Love INC,

Chyeah.  Right.


[all flames to /dev/null]
 
-- 
Bucky Whaley
bw462@cleveland.freenet.edu
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:53:02 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      I'm back but still nomail

Urban Research Institute
Phone: 502-588-6626

Hello!!  I'm back at work as of today (and glad to be here--I was getting a
little stir crazy at home!), but I'm still nomail because I'm about two months
behind on work.  As soon as I begin to catch up I'll set mail again.

Sarah is fine.  Today is her first day at day care.  I feel very positively
about it, especially since I plan on visiting her twice a day to feed her.
She is growing like a weed.  She weighed 10 lbs. 14 oz. at her last doctor's
visit and was 23 inches long.  And of course I am perfectly unbiased and
objective when I say she is absolutely the most beautiful baby ever born to
humans (smile).

Gotta go.

Brenda
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 12:04:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Picking and choosing.

Brian,

I am not the one who is picking and choosing regarding James writing error,
Paul is.  Paul declared in Galatians 1, (aren't y'all tired of my saying
this over and over), that his gospel is the last word.  He says that any
disagreeing with it are damned.  James disagrees ... you can construct a
syllogism, I'm sure.

I'd love to accept everything as truth, but that simply isn't possible.
The Bible contains exactly what God wanted us to have, but God wanted us to
have some error to teach us, I firmly believe.

James is not the only example of this, a great deal of the book of Job is
the error spouted by Job's friends.  We know it to be error because God
instructed those erstwhile frineds to ask Job to pray for their lives.

I realize this is a highly controversial issue and that I am probably in
the tinyist of minorities, but that's okay.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:53:15 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Works for Brad

Brad:
Short answer to your:

> Here's my question for you:

>    What is the place of good works in the life of the
>    justified Christian believer, in your view?

Those good works have been ordained from the foundation of the world. The
believer walks in good works that he was created for by God. See Ephesians 2.
These good works do not improve the believer's standing before God.
The believer is as "saved" as he will ever be from the first moment of his
regeneration, justification, conversion, etc.
Only a believer can perform good works. The unregenerate, unsaved, unjustified,
unbeliever can not perform any good work to please God. And, contrary to
TRENT, he can not aid his salvation by using his free will to choose God.
TRENT is the example I used months ago. Someone has since used it again.
(Perhaps it was you, I can't remember.) But TRENT wants the unbeliever to get
some welfare from God so the unbeliever can muster up his will to follow God.

I don't know what else I can say. Christ alone saves, forgives, cleanses,
justifies and sanctifies.

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:08:08 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
              28 Sep 1992 19:14:15 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Steve:

> Christ died for all our sins.  Nobody said there were venial sins
> "not forgiven."  There may be venial sins for which sufficient penance
> has not yet been done, but penance comes only _after_ forgiveness.
> Penance does _not_ bring about forgiveness.

Christ died for all our sins?????? Then STOP! No more! That's it! There is
no need for Purgatory! GOOD GRIEF! These are your own words! Purgatory
obviously says Christ's death is not enough. Somethin must be added to His
attonement. If this is not works, then I'm, err uh, I'm ahhh.....

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:51:26 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Confused Catholicism ... NOT!
              30 Sep 1992 12:30:41 CDT <9209301738.AA17934@motgate.mot.com>

Dear Jesse ;

>> Sorry ol' bean, but the book of Hebrews says that ONLY through the
>> shedding of BLOOD can sins be FORGIVEN.

Sorry ol' bean, but I think we all agree on that.  We read the Bible
too ... only we don't think that parts of it are "in error", like some
folks on this list claim.

>> Any human action is ineffectual toward sins' forgiveness.

   Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, whose sins you hold bound
   are held bound.
           -- Jn 20:23

Sorry, I forgot: that must be one of the scriptures that is in error.
You can be the one to tell Jesus about it, I don't want to.

>> If it were effectual, then WHY did Christ come to earth ... to be a mere
>> good example for all of us??

No, but that was *part* of the point.  I'm not at all sure it's
working.



Brad Kaiser
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: Networking Convertions - suggested revisions to help the "unsighted"
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:30:50 GMT

In article <Bv2GqE.2D1@world.std.com> timk@world.std.com (Tim King) writes:
>There were a few good suggestions, and I think that the whole project is
>indeed doable.  Believe it or not, the things we need do not require any

etc ...


For those using SUN SPARCs, the whole thing is immensely simple.  Record
your mail, postings, etc as digital sound files and simply uuencode and
post them.  There are even utilities out to convert between different
digital audio file formats so that PC's with sound boards can also
deal with these files.

I realize that there are still problems to be surmounted, ie how does 
the unsighted user download the audio files in the first place, but
I think with a modest amount of thought scripts could be devised ??

It may be a less than universal solution, but as Tim points out in
his post, concerning his (well thought out) suggestions, it can be 
done more or less with currently existant technology.

Iain
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: REFRESH
From: j1w@icf.hrb.com (Doug ('Oscar') Works)
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:43:43 EST
Organization: HRB Systems, Inc.

Dear Listfolk,

     I have run into an interesting situation.  In speaking with a young man,
I learned that he believes that he has been a "Christian" since birth.  His
reply to my question, "So how long have you been a Christian?" also referred
to his baptism as an infant as proof of his salvation.

     Now I know that some will disagree with me, but I believe that the Bible
teaches that a person must willfully accept Christ in order to be saved.

     I believe that he is not in God's family.  [No flame]  He is a Roman
Catholic and is going through some rough times. [I say these things to give you
background, not to rip on any particular denomination]

     All predestination aside for the moment, what can I say to him?  

     Your speedy replies and prayers would be appreciated.  A friend and I are
meeting with him soon, hopefully this Wednesday (9/30).  Thank you.

                                                       In Him,

                                                       Doug

................................................................................
................................................................................
....    |         "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep,             ....
....  --+--              to gain what he cannot lose."                      ....
....    |                                           - Jim Elliot            ....
....    |                                                                   ....
.......................  Internet: j1w@icf.hrb.com .............................
................................................................................
    J. Douglas Works * HRB Systems, Inc. * State College, PA  16804  USA
From: TUK@IAEA1.BITNET (Peter Tuff)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Chicago Heresy Trials!
Date: 2 Oct 92 19:32:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Darren:

Greetings in Jesus!

I wish Vienna weren't so far from Wheaton - otherwise I'd enjoy
coming to meet you and your wife.  I've enjoyed many of your postings,
particularly those which seem to indicate your desire for honesty and
no-nonsense relating (I'm going out on a limb here... pardon the
expression!), as opposed to the manufactured 'good Christian and
church member with no problem currently with sin' game that many of
us learn to play as we grow up in churches that unknowingly promote it.

Have a good trip.

Hi to the rest of you!  I've been 'gone' for ages (doing my work - or
trying to...) and it's nice to 'see' you (2nd person plural).

Peter
IAEA, Vienna
tuk@iaea1.bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:07:34 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Wolfgang et al.,

Let me give this some thought -- I'll try to find time to answer in the next
few days.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:00:16 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Tom:

>> Eric:

>> Quick questions (little time):

I'll pitch in and help Eric.  You ask:

>> How much must the unbeliever contribute to be saved?

He must open himself to grace and believe.  But the grace must come
first.  The Council of Trent said:

  2. If anyone says that divine grace is given through Jesus Christ
     merely to facilitate man's living justly and meriting everlasting
     life, as if he could accomplish both, although with great
     difficulty, by his free will without grace: let him be anathema.

  3. If anyone says that without the Holy Spirit's prevenient [from
     the Latin, literally, "coming before" (BK)] inspiration and without
     His help man can believe, hope, and love, or be repentant as is
     required if the grace of justification is to be given to him: let
     him be anathema.

  22. If anyone says that without God's special help it is possible
      for a justified man to persevere in the justice he has received,
      or says that with God's special help it is impossible: let him
      be anathema.

     [Canons, Decree on Justification, Council of Trent, 6th Session;
     Translation from "The Church Teaches", Clarkson, Edwards, Kelly,
     and Welch; (Tan Books, 1973), pp. 242, 245]

>> How many good works are enough to purify the unbeliever?

Aleph-null.  Infinity plus one.  It can't be done.

The Council of Trent again:

  1. If anyone says that, without divine grace through Jesus Christ,
     man can be justified before God by his own works, whether they be
     done by his natural powers or by the light of the teaching of the
     [Mosaic] Law: let him be anathema.

     [Ibid.]

>> What are those good works to be judged by God for salvation?

No good works are judged "for salvation".  The good works of the elect
are judged as described in 1 Corinthians; the "person himself survives".

What is judged for salvation is whether one has opened himself to
grace and truly repented, or has closed himself to God and wallowed in
sin.

This is the meaning of faith, in the Pauline sense: not mere
superficial trust, not a bumpersticker for the soul ... but picking up
the Cross and following Jesus, in obedience of heart, will and body.

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]