From: kmr4@po.CWRU.Edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Atheism? Really Harold, how gauche...
Date: 13 Oct 1992 05:03:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: kmr4@po.CWRU.Edu (Keith M. Ryan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) says:


>Sure, but I think that morality and truth are two different things.
>The proposition "Keith believes that X is immoral" is either true
>of false, and the proposition "Society will be less violent if
>people believe that X is immoral" is either true of false, but
>"X is immoral" alone is neither true nor false.  I think that
>means it's not a proposition.

I guess it would depend on what exactly you are asking/proposing.
There are many possible meanings to, " X is immoral". Some have 
meanings, some don't.

Some possible interpretations.

"The societal collection says X is immoral"

"The bible says X is immoral"

etc.

I would consider "X is immoral", just by itself ( no hidden baggage )
of being not only a non-propositional, but also meaningless! However, most 
people usually add baggage to it, whether they are aware of it...
And that is how I interpret one's statement of such.

However, I think you are meaning if X conforms to an absolute morality.
I would agree that there is no absolutes to judge against. Or, at least
we have no way of knowing such.

( I feel that stating something as truth, when one doesn't know it is
true, is a type of falseness. The validity of the object of the proposition is 
unknown, but the stating it as being known to be true is a falsehood. Also,
I would consider "coincidental truth" in the same category. That is why I 
feel that statement, "God exists" to be false. )

And, whether or not one can determine the truth does not play a role in
knowing whether or not it is even really true, or even if truth/falsehood
has any meaning in the specific case.

Such as: sure, "I believe it X is immoral" is clearly a true/false
question. ( you run into some problems with dichotomies thou.. )
However, *you* can never truly know if it is true or not. Sure, you
can believe what I tell you, but you never know it ( in the strong 
sense ) Only I can. 


Because I hold this distinguish, it a principle reason that for me,
other's testimony on God's existence ( be it in person, or written 2000
years ago ) is impertinent to my "knowing" god's existence. This is
the reason why I scoff at other's who try to prove god's existence using
the bible. Not because I believe the bible to be false [ which I do in 
one sense ], but that I see no relevant even if it WERE true.

I require strong knowledge of god's existence, not weak knowledge ( or
second hand )


>Anything subjective I guess.  Is "Marilyn Monroe was beautiful" a
>proposition?

Ah, I would interpret it as someone ( whoever is implied, maybe 
you ) though she was beautiful.

Failing that, I would evaluate it's truthfulness by asking, " Do *I* find her
beautiful?". 

It would all depend on what excess baggage is included.

( I do not believe it is possible to ever devoid one statement of all
excess baggage... )

ops, 5mw gotta go...
-- 
	So there I was, snuggled in the leather seat of my brand new Ferreri.
I had the oiled wood gear shift in one hands, and the leather wrapped Momo in
the other. And, I had the stereo cranking _Born to be Wild_...
	Only one problem, I was unside down, under six feet of water...