From: mss2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Reply-To: mss2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 04:54:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.222747.14300@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> jwwalden@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (P'relan) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.214120.27547@midway.uchicago.edu>, mss2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
>> 	"Granted, science cannot operate in a world which is not
>> uniformly lawful a large majority of the time.  But the existence of a
>> being or beings with the power to violate those laws does not
>> invalidate science (though it might circumscribe its scope) so long as
>> that power is not used to violate laws too often.

>No, even one violation of the physical laws invalidates science.  Extremely
>limited intervention does not prevent science from being *useful* though it
>remove any chance of it being correct which may be what you meant by not
>invalidating science.

	"I guess I'm not sure what you mean by `correct'.  Surely
science isn't invalid because one believes a given theory can't cover
the entire universe-- if so, all science up to the present day has
been invalid.  After all, we generally know that whatever constitutes
current theory is merely a best approximation based on available data;
violation of a scientific theory isn't a violation of universal law--
it's merely evidence that there are cases current theory can't cover.
Supernatural intervention might imply that there are cases that _no_
theory _can_ cover, but there would still be a wide field of natural
law which science would apply to.  I don't see that makes science any
less valid than post-Goedel mathematics is.  If scientific validity
depends on a belief that a Final Theory covering every phenomenon in
the universe will be found, then I suspect that it's in danger
regardless of the presence of a supernatural."

>> and the fact that a particular electron's location is
>> indeterminable doesn't prevent us from determining the location of a
>> lightning bolt."

>The electron is obeying extremely precise physical laws, for which we can make
>far better measurements than we usually can make in classical physics.  The
>fact that these laws are statistical and not classically deterministic in
>nature does not matter as long as the electron *always* obeys the physical
>laws.

	"Statistical laws are, in part, a confession of ignorance.  We
can know position and momentum within precisely defined limits-- but
further deponent sayeth not.  Scientifically, a difference which is
unknowable is no difference at all, and it's meaningless to say that
a `real' precise position and momentum exists at all-- but the fact
that something is unknowable doesn't necessarily mean that it's
nonexistent-- and conversely, what we can't see we can't determine
laws for.

	"It's the old canard about the tree falling in the forest; we
presume that all the trees we don't see follow the same laws as all
the trees we do see because that makes sense.  Where we have _no_
other trees to infer data from (as we have no data on position and
momentum below the Heisenberg limits-- neither what they are, or
whether there is such a thing) what goes on is a matter for idle
speculation.  What goes on in there, if anything, is not a matter of
scientific law-- except that whatever it is can't contradict the
observed statistical distributions.  If, at an intersection, a third
of the people turn right and two thirds turn left, this may be
determined by the roll of a die, the aggregate free will of the
drivers, or a traffic regulation.  If all we have are counters in each
direction, we can give the distribution, but we can't say anything
about the cause-- it's a black box.  Similarly, anything that goes on
prior to the collapse of a wave function is a black box, and may
conceal anything from nothing to self-willed electrons playing a joke
on the universe."

Michael

-- 
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Indeed I tremble for my country
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 when I reflect that God is just."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on
mschiffer@aal.itd.umich.edu	    Virginia (1784)