From: GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet
Subject: Oh Oh, here we go again...
Reply-To: GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:59:45 GMT

|From: richter@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Jean Richter)
|Subject: Re: Lets put this one to rest...
|Date: 19 Nov 1992 01:20:01 GMT
|
|In article <1992Nov18.225632.15775@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>
| GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet writes:
|
|>>[ My stuff I deleted ]
|
|Pardon me, but as long as my right to keep a job, or live in the
|housing of my choice, or marry the partner of my choosing, keeps
|being taken away based on my lover's gender, whether it's in
|Colorado, Oregon, or right here in "liberal" California, and
|as long as the religious right bigots have well-meaning but essentially
|clueless people like you do their dirty work for them,  I am
|*not* going to be a "happy camper".
Jean, now you are starting to piss me off.  I really resent being called
a dupe of the religious right, which I have detested and fought from day one.  I
    do nobodys dirty work.  I
I have always supported calls for civil rights.  I have hired and fired
without reguard for race or gender orientation, even when it meant sticking
my neck out with management.  If I owned rental property, you would be
welcome.
Why don't you quit carrying coals to Newcastle, and try to empathize with
my situation. I remind you, yours was the most vitriolic response on the net.
|
|Yeah right. Mark a posting "FLAMEBAIT" and then claim you didn't want flames.
While I didn't want flames, rather some understanding or additional
insight, I did expect a little flamage. ( Understatement )  My sense
of humor doesn't always hit the spot. OK, score 1 for you.
|
|
|>   [Jean continues:]
|>|
|>|        [tons of misinformation and homophobic diatribe, which I
|>|         won't dignify by responding to - followup in
|>|         alt.politics.homosexuality or somewhere if you feel it
|>|         necessary to start the inevitable flamewar]
|>Homophobic implies a phobia.  I assure you I have no fear of the 10% or so.
|    [Gladstone's stuff self deleted]
|Sorry, I stand by what I said. Your original article was dripping
|with homophobia, specifically fear of those big bad nasty gay men,
|all of whom are just waiting to find a way to give you AIDS.
Are we playing in the same ballpark?  You can tell me I am afraid till
you're blue in the face, but that won't make it true.  You should acknowledge
just what goes on in the street scene.  Lots of the male prostitutes
know they are dying, and just don't give a damn about protection.
Look at the local newspaper, and you will see lots of murders and robberies
associated with this scene.  I don't give a damn about what goes on behind
closed doors, but the street scene attracts vagrants and crims from all over.
My wife and I have on occasion gotten to know some of the less fortunate
ones, and have helped them with food, odd jobs, and a careing ear.
In our home.  So don't keep on with the phobic bit.
|
|>|Funny, in the 14 years that I've been going to shows in the Bay Area and
|>|elsewhere I've never once been hassled for being openly lesbian (and
|>|that includes some pretty unsubtle public displays of affection).
|>Physical affection between people of all sexes is not an unusual sight,
|>and is not percieved by the masses as sexual, rather as a celebration
|>of life.  Same sex lip kissing is a very rare sight.
|
|Uh, maybe you didn't understand what I meant. :-) When I said unsubtle,
|I meant *really* unsubtle - like, you'd never mistake me and my lover
|for friendly straight girls. :-)
Good for you.  You still know you are the rare exception, if you read any
of the other posts.  The others feel inhibited and sense an oppressive
athmosphere at shows.  I'm curious, is this within the bounds of hetero
public displays of affection, or do you enjoy putting on a show?
( OK, so now you're pissed off too )

|
|>|One more thing - gay is an adjective, not a noun.
|>Not to pick nits, but as the Hackers Dictionary points out, we are moving
|>towards a purely positional grammer, like Chinese.  I feel on safe ground
|>using this word as a noun or an adjective.
|
|I wasn't making a grammar flame - I was pointing out that using gay
|as a noun pisses off lots of gay people. I'm sure you can find the
|word "nigger" in a dictionary; that doesn't mean it won't piss off
|people if you refer to them that way.
Nigger is offensive ( when spoken by whites ) regardless of whether
it is a noun or an adjective.  Try and find an example of a word that is
self choosen for a minority or other group, PC as an adjective yet
highly offensive as a noun.  Kinda strange, the way I see it.
|
|>[More Gladstone self deletion]
|
|Sorry, I'm not buying this "dykes good, fags bad" dichotomy.
|Your invalid stereotypes are showing...
The dichotomy is as obvious as the plumbing.  Anybody who knows anything
about the gay scene knows there is a huge difference.  It seems to me there
is an uneasy truce between the two groups.  Fags and Dykes, to use your
terminology, are more different than hetero men and women.  Most
lesbians I know detest gay males and resent any association, except for
the need to form uneasy political alliances.  Most gay males, it seems,
don't like women of any orientation.
|
|>I guess my only beef is that you
|>demand equal access for yourselves, while denying it to others.
|
|Huh? Mind pointing out to me where I did that?
I used 'you' in the generic sense, not you personnally.
As for access, I can give you a list of places in this burg where I would
be instantly ejected, or worse.  Isn't this a civil rights issue in your book,
or do you only care about your own rights?
|
|Really, I don't think you're a bad person or anything -
|but your postings show a remarkable lack of understanding about
|what it's like to be a gay person in this society. Use less
|condescension and stereotyping when you talk to us and you'll be
|a lot less likely to piss us off.
I feel stereotyped by your response.  Inform me, don't insult me.
|
|>Fair thee well, let your life proceed by it's own design.
|>Nothing to tell, let the words be yours, I am done with mine.
|>Gladstone>
|
|ditto.
|
|Jean Richter
|richter@hera.Berkeley.EDU
|ucbvax!hera!richter
|
Jean, please, if we have to continue this, lets take it email.
I have been reading about feminism since Gloria and Germaine, and have
a great awe for females of all orientations.  I consider myself a pagan
libertarian, and while I may be a little misinformed en re the gay scene,
and if we were able to communicate, you would see my point, and I would
learn more of yours.
NO MORE WAR on R.M.GD
Gladstone>