HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keradwc@news.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Connery)
Subject: Digital Heraldic Art (was: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Organization: Sneakernet West, NASA Ames Research Center, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 04:45:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.213545.734@Princeton.EDU> vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes:
>In article <18qij3INNesd@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
>
>)Do people collect digitally stored images of heraldic art?
>
>	I have a small collection heraldic artwork from SCA sources, that's
>about all I've seen.  There was someone else working on that kind of thing
>a while back, but I haven't heard from him in a while.

I only know of one person 'collecting' digitally stored (computer) images of
heraldic art, and that's as a secondary approach to a project of his; building
a reference collection of standard charges (Kevin Munday/Bruce Miller: Kevin
has the PicDic on disk, I _believe_ partially with the help of DW James.)
Parker's Dictionary is/was quite good, but there IS room for more.

--kdc
  kconnery@isi.com
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: hamm@weejordy.physics.mun.ca (Craig Hamm)
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Organization: Ocean Sciences Centre
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:19:40 GMT

	They look like at least 1/2 bullshit to me.  I'm no expert, but
	on all of the ones I've seen, about 1/2 of the page describes
	general European history, and has nothing to do with the
	family name.  Just stuff like: In the 16th century the Norman
	conquests of blah blah invaded blah blah blah leading to the
	formation of the blah blah blah . . . . .  Nothing to do with my
	family name at all.  Just filler that sounds like it's important and
	or regal etc.  It's a scam.

-- 
  
    Craig Hamm, Memorial University, | I don't think the letters which appear
    Newfoundland                     | on your letters page are genuine. I 
    DoD #1500,                       | think you just make them all up.  In
    81 Maxim 650                     | fact you probably made this one up
    ------------                     | too.  -J. Clark, Rotherham (Viz comics)
From: thorinn@diku.dk (Lars Henrik Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Keywords: White Cross International
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:10:13 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Yes, and I wonder if the other devics you cite really were exactly the same
>as Savoy: the form of the cross was and is considered sufficient to
>distinguish two devices.  For example, Denmark's flag is "Gules, a cross
>argent", while Savoy is "Gules, a cross couped argent."  Are the crosses in
>the arms of Vienna and Tallinn identical to Savoy's cross couped?

As I understand it, a plain "cross" on a flag is symmetrical, like the
Cross of St. George in the UK flag. The cross in the Danish flag is
not symmetrical --- the part of the upright above the joint should
have the same length as the side arms (on the normal rectangular flag
shape, which is about 20% higher (longer) than it is wide). I believe
this is called a Roman cross. The other Nordic countries use the same
shape of cross and flag, but with other tinctures.

(I do realize that the difference is less than radical. A symmetrical
cross in the right colours triggers the recognition just as well at
first flash, but it looks wrong almost at once. Is it just a matter of
artistic license, or is the difference heraldically significant?)

By the way, I have seen pictures from Italy with some decidedly
non-couped white-crosses-on-red, but I don't remember if it was a
Roman or plain cross. Was that Savoy, or someone else? Also, I saw a
number of large banners during the Tour de France: "Gules, a saltire
vert, overall a cross argent" --- I think the speakers called it the
provincial flag of Tuscany.

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@diku.dk> (Humour NOT marked)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney)
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:52:34 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Windows/DOS Users Ed Group

In article <1992Sep13.233144.9594@wixer.cactus.org> badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger) writes:
>In article <7398@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
[deletion]
>>
>>The practice of using a charge with a name similar to the surname of the
>>bearer is called "canting."  Or, at least so I recall.
>>
[deletion]
>	True! Canting Arms are a wonderful thing! Since the Pun is, as I'm
>sure all here will agree =B), the single highest form of Humor, what could
>be more pleasing to a Herald than a good visual pun?
>

A famous contemporary example of canting arms is the arms of
Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. Before her marriage, she
was Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and her arms quarter the Lion
Rampant of Scotland with three longbows on ermine, all blue
on silver. Her personal standard (my focus being primarily
vexillology) impales the royal standard with her own arms.

-- 
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
	"Well, I'm a little muddled." -- Glinda
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 14:49:06 GMT

Another possible heraldry FAQ could be:

"What are the heraldic tinctuures and what are they in English ?"

The heraldic tinctures are divided in four classes. They are

1. Colours

GULES, which is red. Try FS31350
AZURE, which is blue. Something like FS35095
VERT, which is green. Good guess FS34090
SABLE, black. FS37030

Lesser used colours are

PURPURE, or purple, FS37100
ORANGE (orange), FS32473

2. Metals

OR (Gold), which is ofted decipited as yellow, and
ARGENT (Silver), often decipited as white

3. Furs

ERMINE (Weasel pelt): on white field black weasel tails
ERMINES = Counter-ermine; field is black, tails white
ERMINOIS = like ermine, but on yellow field
PEAN = ermines equivalent of erminois
VAIR (Squirrel pelt): on blue field upward-pointing steel hats forming
     a checquerboard pattern
COUNTERVAIR: like vair, but the steel hats are on columns
GROSS VAIR: like previous, but the steel hats are on columns with their
            wide sides against each other
VAIRY: Like vair, but steel hats are yellow on white field
POTENT: like vair, but white areas form capital T's instead of steel hats

4. Stains

Unlike all other tinctures, stains are never chosen by the designer or the
bearer of the arms. They are added to the arms as a sign of humiliation
or punishment for an ignoble deed.

SANGUINE : dark, bloody red. FS 30091
TENNE: tan. FS30217
MURREY (murrey). FS30076

There is one well known rule according to the tinctures:

- a coat of arms must be composed of at least two tinctures
- one of them must be a metal
- and a metal may not be placed next to a metal or colour next to a colour 

There is only one internationally accepted exception of this rule: the
arms of the Kingdom of Jerusalem:

ARGENT, a cross potent cantoned with four crosses couped (Jerusalem cross), OR

Here a metal is placed next to another metal. There are also some individual
exceptions of this rule, but they are considered as "puzzle arms" and do not
indicate good heraldship.

  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: ewadams@netcom.Netcom.COM (Ernest Adams)
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:25:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service


The fictitious detective, Lord Peter Wimsey's arms has three mice, sable,
on an argent background. Where the helmet is supposed to be there is
a domestic cat, running, sinister.
From: Roxanne.Coffey@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Roxanne Coffey)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Coffey cups (one more try)
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:40:13 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

I'm not sure why but my last post cut off the first part of my
question so I'll try again.

In brief (and please pardon any incorrect terminology) what I want to
know is whether the Coffey family crest could possibly have what 
appears to be 3 coffee cups on it? (Ignore for now the question of
whether we are the armegeneous (sp?) branch)  I thought most, if not
all crests had animals on them (whether real or fictional) or perhaps
a religious symbol (cross).  

Are the "coffee cups" someone's idea of a cute pun?  Opinions?

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: batman@batcave.EBay.Sun.COM (The Reverend Doctor Karl Elvis MacRae)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Date: 9 Sep 1992 23:12:25 GMT
Organization: Tattooed Love Boys
Reply-To: batman@batcave.EBay.Sun.COM (The Reverend Doctor Karl Elvis MacRae)
NNTP-Posting-Host: batcave.ebay.sun.com

In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
>
>I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
>(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
>sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.

	My suggestion would be to contact either the Macdonald 
	Clan Seat in Scotland (Sorry, I don't know where that is
	offhand), or the local Clan association here in the states.

	ALL of the local Clan associations, BTW, can be gotten out
	of Highlander Magazine (I'll dig up the address and post it
	here in a bit....


	-Karl MacRae (Of the 'Wild MacRaes' of Kintail)


  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Karl Elvis MacRae batman@batcave.Ebay.sun.com 408-276-3110  |Steed: Dead...
  Sun Microsystems, Milpitas, CA |  I DON'T SPEAK FOR SUN...  |DoD#1999
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	      "Come and see the Violence inherent in the System!
		Help, Help, I'm being Repressed!"
  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:13:44 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Keywords: White Cross International 

Tero Juhani Heikkinen writes:

> The Counts of Savoy bore Gules a cross argent. (A white cross on a red
> field)  The House of Savoy later became Kings of Italy, with these same
> arms. 
> 
> Incidentally, these same arms are borne by the City of Wien(Vienna),
> Austria, and the City of Tallinn, Estonia. This is also the flag of
> Denmark. The Knights of Malta have also used this as a flag.

> Btw, isn't Switzerland Gules a cross couped argent? (with short limbs)

Yes, and I wonder if the other devics you cite really were exactly the same
as Savoy: the form of the cross was and is considered sufficient to
distinguish two devices.  For example, Denmark's flag is "Gules, a cross
argent", while Savoy is "Gules, a cross couped argent."  Are the crosses in
the arms of Vienna and Tallinn identical to Savoy's cross couped?

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: bigger@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Marcel Bigger)
Subject: Bigger family
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:55:14 GMT



I am looking for members of the family of Bigger. The Bigger family
originates from VILTERS, a small village in the Canton of Sanct Gall,
Switzerland. We have records on the name dating back to the 15th century.
Collections are extensive in the period of mid-18th century till today.
It is known that several family members emigrated to the New World,
especially during mid-1800 immigration waves.

All information on members of the Bigger family are welcomed.

If it would help, here is a description of our coat of arms:

Housesign Or (gold) over three hills Verte (green) on Gules (red background).
Crest: half of a lily Or (gold)

The housesign looks like this:

X
X
X
XX
X X
X  X
X   X


Any questions? Please feel free to contact me thru e-mail.


Marcel W. Bigger
bigger@sage.cc.purdue.edu
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:36:05 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Noble Heralds!

The practice of using a charge with a name similar to the surname of the
bearer is called "canting."  Or, at least so I recall.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:10:10 -0400 
From: "Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz" <ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures

Aryk writes:
> Another set of heraldic colours to include in a possible FAQ is the 
> heraldic jewels.  

This reminds me of my reading of Randle Holme, "An academy of armory".
Holme says that arms could be blazoned with heraldic tinctures, jewels
or planets, depending on who the arms belong to. I've never seen anything
blazoned with heraldic jewels or planets. He wrote the book in the
late 17th century.


Andrea Gansley-Ortiz                                Esmeralda la Sabia
Carnegie Mellon University          Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc, East
***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***
DISCLAIMER:  I do not speak for Carnegie Mellon, the DoD, the Dept.
of the Army, or any branch thereof.  These opinions are my own. 
***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***
Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
        -- Vice President Dan Quayle
***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***


Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (The Mad Scot)
Subject: Re: M[a]cDonald
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 03:34:17 GMT

In article <x95y7#c@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>The arms (not the crest) of MacDonald of the Isles are "Or, a lymphad sable,
>pennoned gules". (A lymphad is an old-style ship, with a single mast, high
>castles, and oars.) This info is taken from a poster I have (prepared by the
>Albany Herald and Unicorn Pursuivant of Scotland). I'm sure there are other
>MacDonald clans/septs; I just don't know what their armory is.
>
>Andrea Habura
>

The one place to find out information on the Clan Donald (and the Mac
Donalds, too), is the Clan Donald Centre in Armadale, Skye.  There is
a 15 minute video which tells about the Clan Donald, and a nice (if 
small) display area that does have the rough breakdown of the various
septs (with arms) of the MacDonalds.  A very nice place to visit, with
some interesting information on the Kingdom of the Isles.



-- 
================================================================================
Tony Perreault, High Tech Babysitter & Nanny	tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
Array Operations, Very Large Array	      All opinions expressed are my
Socorro, NM				        own and not those of NRAO
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:16:40 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Silly Blazoning Games

While walking to the trolley stop this morning, I passed a building with
a coat of arms carved over the door.  Having nothing better to do, I
decided to see whether I could come up with a reasonable blazon (making
up colors, since the stone wasn't painted).  Assuming that the colors
are gold (Or), blue (azure), and green (vert) (Note that this is not
necessarily a reasonable assumption), and given that the design was:

The field is divided horizontally into three equal stripes.  In the
middle of the top stripe is a three masted sailing ship sailing towards
stage right, in the middle of the middle stripe is a plow, facing stage
right, and in the bottom are three sheafs of wheat all in a horizontal
row, my guess on blazoning is:

Azure, on a fess Or a plow vert, in chief a (whatever kind of ship it
is) ship Or, and in base three sheafs of wheat.

My questions on this are as follows:

What's the default direction for a sailing ship.  Should the ship be
"ship facing to dexter Or".  Same question with the plow.  Finally, I
know that if the wheat sheafs had been in chief, then the horizontal row
would be their default position, but what about in base?  Should it be
"in base three sheafs of wheat fesswise"?

See, silly blazoning games...:-)

toodles, gretchen
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson)
Subject: Swedish Heraldry
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:11:07 GMT

I am studying my family history and would like to know whether my
branch of the Andersson family (from the region near Varmland) was
armigerious or not.  How would I find out since once I go farther back
than the early 1700s the surname of my family changes with each
generation?   Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

David Anderson 
danderso@nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:18:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.144906.13646@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:

>The heraldic tinctures are divided in four classes. They are
>3. Furs
>
>ERMINE (Weasel pelt): on white field black weasel tails

Ermines are, in fact, stoats, not weasels.  Small point.

Also, in some countries SABLE is considered a fur.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:54:53 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> The crest of the Scots Clan Chattan (the Clan of the Cat) has a
> crouching cat as its crest.

Variations on that crest are used by many Scottish families, frequently
with a motto like "Touch not the Cat but a glove".  The cat is variously
rampant, salient, and sejant erect.  I believe that this is intended to be
a wildcat, rather than a domestic cat.  I think the same is true of most
British armory which is blazoned with the term "cat".

I believe that Sherlock Holmes' attributed arms also contain a cat (maybe a
cat courant between three mice?).  I think Sayers designed Wimsey's arms
with that in mind.  BTW, there are at least two versions of Wimsey's arms.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: frank@westford.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:12:16 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp.  Westford, MA

In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:

>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

How about two golden arches on a rectangular red field?

Frank Tredeau      Concurrent Computer Corp.
(sez me)
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Tartans and Scottish Geneology (Was: Re: Need help with family crest)
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:37:40 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar):

>	Do you know of any good books, other then the Dictionary already
>mentioned, on Scottish geneology, tartans, arms and surnames?

Here are a few titles:

	Brooke-Little, J.P.  _Boutell's_Heraldry_, revised ed. (1978)
	Dennys, R. _Heraldry_and_the_Heralds_ (1982)
	Franklyn, Julian  _Shield_and_Crest_, 3d edition (1963)
	Gayre of Gayre and Nigg, Robert:  _Heraldic_Standards_ (1959)
	  "    "	_Heraldic_Cadency_ (1961)
	  "    "	_The_Nature_of_Arms_ (1961)
	Neubecker, Ottfried  _Heraldry_  (1976)
	Puttock, A.G.  _A_Dictionary_of_Heraldry_and_Related_Subjects_ 
		(1970; reprinted 1986)
	Woodcock, Robinson, and Robinson,  _The_Oxford_Guide_to_Heraldry_ 
		(1989)

For specifically Scottish heraldry, you might prefer 

	Innes of Learney, Sir Thomas:	_Scots_Heraldry_, 2nd. edition 
		(1956; reprinted 1971)

I haven't seen most of these personally, but they keep showing up in the
bibliographies that I *have* seen...


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: partitioned achievements
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:27:01 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman):

>For example, during
>the 100 Years War, the Kings of England quartered the arms of England with
>those of France.  They were claiming the Crown of France by right of
>inheritence, and quartering was a way to advertise that claim.  

Some may be surprised to know that the arms of France (Azure three fleurs-
de-lis or?  Or was it "Azure fleury or"?  I can't recall offhand...) were
not dropped from the arms of Great Britain until the 19th century...

>Similarly,
>the modern British royal arms quarter England with Scotland and Ireland

...although it should be noted that the "Irish" arms (Azure a harp argent
stringed or) were an invention meant to be symbolic of English sovereignty
in Ireland, and not the historical arms of the Kingdom of Ireland.

>Exactly how the quarters are combined has varied from era to era and from
>place to place.  

And from individual to individual.  A famous American example can be seen
in the state flag of Maryland, which shows the quartered arms of Calvert
(Paly of six sable and or a bend counterchanged) and Arundel (Crosswise
gules and argent a cross botony counterchanged), to striking effect.  These
were the arms of the Lords Baltimore.

A more bizarre form of quartering is "dimidiation", in which the left half
of one armorial bearing is juxtaposed with the right half of another.  This
process is frowned upon somewhat these days, especially when quartering more
complex arms, as the results of the juxtaposition can be at best confusing,
and at worst ludicrous.

>If you want a detailed description of modern English
>practice, you can probably find it in A. C. Fox-Davies "Encyclopedia of
>Heraldry."  However, you must realize that this description only applies to
>modern English heraldry; other countries do things in their own ways.

What he said.


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry