From: rakesh@ecr.mu.oz.au (Rakesh R Desai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Should the government subsidize IITs? (Warn: Very Long)
Summary: IITs, Subsidy, Cost, Satisfaction, etc.
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:43:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia

Before I start, better give my background.  I am ex-IITian (so biased :-))
I was from IITB '87 Mech batch.  I was in some dream world that I should
stay back in India and contribute towards well being, etc.  So I backed
out from appearing in GRE,AGRE and Toefl when my almost whole batch was
busy preparing.  (It's not just looser or sour grapes approach before
hand because my dad was in gulf and I could afford american university
by paying full fees.)  I secured job with Larsen & Toubro (one of the
top 5 Private Sector co. - worked there three years - Is it enough for
paying it back to GOVT?)  Since its always appealing I took up
marketing as the field.  When I just prepared quotations and wrote
letters for one year, I realised marketing Industrial products is
no fun.  So I had a change of heart and joined Product Design Dept.
It was alright.  Kept me busy around 12-14 hours a day.  First year I
learnt a lot.  Second year I realised I am doing the same thing again
and again.  There was no product development and no search for new areas
to get into.  In these period I applied for migration to Australia and I
am currently doing my PhD at The University of Melbourne.

Similar dis-illusion may have happened to many of the graduates from
many different universities in India.  Should they be stopped from going
wherever they liked?  I hope not.  That's communism. (probably debchat
can respond to that better :-))

Point always remain should any form of higher education be subsidised.
whether IIT, or REC or other universities.  Recently I met IITB chemical
eng. Prof (may be lecturer) Shankar.  According to him central govt has
now frozen the grants to the IITs.  Any money other than grant needs to
be generated by IIT staff using their own skills. Each undergraduate
student cost more than Rs 200,000 (2 lakh) to govt.  IIT students pay 
Rs 200 per year as Tution fees.  (IMHO that's ridiculous).  According to
IIT senate etc they need to charge more than 50000 Rs per year from
undergraduates to recover the cost.   That sounds drastict measure as
most of the IIT students come from middle class back ground and can not
afford to pay such an excessive amount.  That sum of Rs 200 will surely
go upto about Rs 1000 by next year but that's not solution.  In fact
Bombay university has increased their fees to about 3000 Rs/year from
about Rs 600/year (Pl note this are approx figures, some one can
confirm)

So far so good.  What I am trying to say?

1	You can't stop people from choosing where and when and how they
wish to live.  So there cannot be any restriction unless India is going
in opposite direction towards communism.

2	Govt can't afford to subsidise higher education (and should
not).   India's priority should be to make the common poor people
literate (which are close to 50 %)  There should be more money spent on
primary and secondary schools rather than building new IITs and
Universities at Govt expense.

3	What should be done with the present unis and IITs.  Like
americans and australians they should be treated like a profit centres
and should generate their own revenue and profit.

4	Many will ask me how can people afford fees like 50000 Rs/year.
That's where I like what Aussie Govt is doing.  In aust higher education
(after HSC) is not free.  Fees are equivalent to A$ 2000 per year and
increases with index.  If student can afford it he can pay staight away
at the beginning of the year.  If he can not, govt gives it to him as a
loan under HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme).  Under HECS
students fees and interest (nominal) accrue and after he/she graduates and
starts working that money is taken out with the tax to pay for his fees.
My suggestion is Indian govt can also do the same and can take back
money from IITians going abroad in foreign exchange (soot ke saath vasul :-)).

In article <1992Sep29.205332.6997@unixg.ubc.ca>, banarji@unixg.ubc.ca (Ajai Banarji) writes:
>         	Should the government subsidize IITs etc (long)

some deletion for space.

> 1) Delay the decision-do management and then sell soap.

That's true.

> 2) Resign themselves to just running an existing manufacturing setup and
>    degenerate intellectually.

That's correct.  Somehow us Indians have defeatist attitude that we
can't do anything new so we resign ourselves to living in the system as
it is.  I know whenever me and my boss suggested some change it was
vehemently argued against.

> 3) Go abroad in search of financial and intellectual gain.

I guess its just financial :-).  People come to the fact that
intellctual gain is bullshit and it is not meant for us mortals.  Like
only few become Lata Mangeshkar, Sunil Gavaskar or Ravi Shankar,
similarly only few can get intellectual gain :-).  So if you are not
going to get intellectual gain ever, atleast you should endeavour for
financial gain.  Money cannot buy you happiness, but allows you to
choose your own misery. :-). (borrowed from msod file)

> -fications are the ability to bribe bureaucrats and get government and other
> clearances; to find a concern in the west which is manufacturing the same

I always believed this bribe and corruption and black market kind of
evil came into India due to over protection and typical mentality that
if you open door of the country all Chors and Dakaits from America and
Europe will take away our wealth.  I felt disgusted when I had to bribe
Rs 50  to Bombay Municipal Council Clerk for my father's death
certificate (which he had to just copy from original Doctor's Cert).
I felt sorry for the chap because he was creation of system.

> per student. That is roughly the market price of one tonnes of polyester
> filament yarn in India, which sells for around $1800 in the US. Thus, as soon
> as a person who leaves India repatriates 1.5 tonnes of PFY (equivalent to
> $2700 to him) which the government can sell for Rs 3 lakh, he clears his
> debt. Anything above this is a gift of hard currency.

I still believe 2 lakh/student/year for a poor country is waste.  Govt
money should be used to feed poor, hungry and give them basic
necessities.  If you live in absolutely capitalist world you get
underclass who go on riots like LA when some day bomb explodes.

>   Secondly, the total expenditure on IIT education is a very small fraction
> of the money spent on our monitoring, licensing and control agencies which

Under different schemes I know lots of money is getting wasted.  I had a
distant relative who used to work for Family Planning.  They used to get
latest Family Planning materials (like injection, contraceptives, pills)
etc from WHO and it never used to get distributed and just go down the
drains after expiry dates.

>   I would like to state that the average IITian is much more socially
> conscious than his counterparts from other colleges. (Really?) We feel
> very sad that our country which is individually composed of brilliant people
> is collectively degenerating into such a joke. Mr Amrik Singh should have 
> advocated a change in the economic structure. Instead he proposes that it
> be made mandatory for all students graduating from the IITs that they stay back
> for 5 years. May I ask what purpose this will serve?
> 							AJAY CHAUHAN

Agreed.  I remember N no. of cack sessions going upto 2-3 in the morning
discussing generally what, how, where, when , should be done to bring up
India.

>   It appears that this letter was written some time before the economic
> reforms of last year were announced. Some of the more foolish distortions like industrial licencing have gone now. It is also true that with the imminent full
> convertibility of the rupee the role of NRIs in bringing in foreign exchange
> will be less important than it is now. 

Some of those changes were inevitable, else we wouldn't have received
IMF loans.  I am bit pessimistic but unless we open up our doors
completely there won't be much hope.  As Ajay says our business are good
at running plant as it is, then we should allow foreign investors to
make more no of plants which our people will run efficiently.

>   However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the present economic
> and social structure of the country (dominated as it is by the neta-babu-bania-
> goonda elite) does not have much place for any reasonably competent or 
> reasonably honest individual. Will things change? Your guess is as good as
> mine.


Hope it will.

rakesh

ps phew at last over.  If you had reached so far.  You must be as much
"Dhanda NOT" as I am.  Do some work, mate.
This is all bullshit.

************************************************************************
*   Rakesh Desai, Mech & Manf Eng, Uni of Melbourne, Parkville,Vic 3052*
*   email: rakesh@ecr.mu.oz.au *(BH)+61 3 344 6728  +61 3 328 2258(AH) *
************************************************************************