HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - Sun ICNC)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: New World Order - what about NI???
Date: 14 Dec 1992 10:27:26 GMT
Organization: SunConnect
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.france.sun.com

In article <28026@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
> 
>  In this day and age of a so-called "new world order" where the United
> Nations for once seems capable of at least enforcing some of agreed
> upon solutions - I can't help but wonder if there will be a role for
> the United Nations in Northern Ireland. The English, it seems to me,
> have long claimed that they want nothing more than to get the hell out
> but are concerned about the bloodshed that could or would (depends on who you
> ask) result from their withdrawl. So what better solution than for the
> British to approach the UN and ask that the World help in solving the
> troubles in Northern Ireland? At the very least, remove British troops
> from the Island and allow "neutral" forces to attempt to keep the
> peace. What would be the result of such a move? Would violence be directed
> at the UN troops? From both sides? Would the situation simply continue
> as it has in recent years? Would either side or both feel more driven to
> take part in serious peace talks?


I can see logistical problems with using UN troops. Much of the Army role in
NI involves police duties, such as checkpoints, house searches etc. That
does require that the troops speak English (well, John Pepper might disagree...).

The main english-speaking troops in the UN are British, Irish and American.
The first two are obviously ruled out, and I think the various well-known
attitudes re: Americans & the Republican movement (correct or otherwise)
would make US troops distrusted by the Unionist camp.

I doubt there are many RUC officers fluent enough in, say, German or French,
to accompany UN patrols as interpreters. The UN undoubtedly have their
own but would they have enough to commit one to every small patrol in
NI?  UN activities in the Middle East etc tend to be big military operations,
dealing with a compatitively high level of violence, I have doubts that they
would work as well in a primarily police role dealing with small numbers of
guerilla-type activities.

Steve

Steve McKinty
SUN Microsystems ICNC
38240 Meylan, France
email: smckinty@france.sun.com	   BIX: smckinty
From: spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr S J Morris 92)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:49:31 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College at Cardiff
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

In article <1992Dec13.102103.13683@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
|Regarding Ulick Stafford's comments on Cromwell, I also
|remember the Ladybird books being quite filledwith praise for
|Cromwell. My impression of Cromwell from modern historiography
|was that he was feared by everyone and loved by few. To this day, I
|have to ask whether those children's books were typical of English
|attitude, or what? As I've said, most historians, left or right,
|view Cromwell as an intolerant dictator.
|
|Any comments?
|

There was a minor thread on this topic in either this group or
soc.culture.british a month or two ago. To recap, or at least
crystallize my contribution to that thread and currently-held opinion on
the subject:

Cromwell was one of the good guys. He had the task of governing Britain
under virtually impossible circumstances - war over the channel in
Germany, invasion threats from France, Spain and Ireland, a
post-revolutionary atmosphere in Britain - and yet managed to create one
of the most free societies that Britain has ever known. It wasn't
perfect, obviously, but was immeasurably better than life under either
Charles I, his predecessor, or Charles II and James II who followed him.
He tried on anumber of occasions to establish a workable Parliament, but
circumstances were so chaotic that no parliament he called was ever able
to accomplish much. If he ever became a 'dictator' in any sense of the
word, it was reluctantly.


-- 
Steve Morris,
Adran Ffiseg a Seryddiaeth, Coleg Prifysgol Cymru Caerdydd.
(Physics and Astronomy Dept., UWC Cardiff)
***************************************************************************
* For God so loved the world that he* Canys felly y carodd Duw y byd fel  *
* gave his only-begotten Son, that  * y rhoddodd efe ei unig-anedig Fab,  *
* whosever believes in him should   * fel na choller pwy bynnag a gredo   *
* not perish but have everlasting   * ynddo Ef, ond caffael ohono fywyd   *
* life.      (John ch.3 v.16)       * tragwyddol.      (Ioan p.3 ad.16)   *
***************************************************************************
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Gaelic-L
Date: 19 Dec 1992 20:50:05 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Eilidh Swan writes:
>Could someone please e-mail me the subscription address for
>the Gaelic-L ListServ?  Also, I believe a number of other
>Celtic Language ListServs have been mentioned on here, may
>I have these as well?

listserv@irlearn.ucd.ie has a number of these; to find out
what they have, send mail to 

listserv@irlearn.ucd.ie

with the message

list

And you'll get a message back showing what lists they have there.
Note that many of these lists are actually sited in other places &
it's probably more appropriate to use whatever is the nearest host
to you for such lists.  The language lists, tho, are unique &
some that you may be interested in include:

CELTIC-L  CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
GAELIC-L  GAELIC Language Bulletin Board
WELSH-L   WELSH Language Bulletin Board

[and some others whose titles look intriguing but I have no personal
experience with them or don't know how eager the listowners are for
the publicity]

To subscribe to any of them send mail to 

listserv@irlearn.ucd.ie

with the message

sub listname Your Name
eg
sub gaelic-l michael helm
-----

The Irish Emigrant, Liam Ferrie's electronic newspaper-digest of
mostly Irish news from various sources, can be subscribed to by
sending a message to

irish-net-request@cs.cornell.edu

Back issues are also available via anonymous ftp at 
ftp.cs.cornell.edu:/pub/irish-emigrant
The files in this directory are each one an issue; the file names
do not correspond to the issue numbers however.

The Irish Emigrant comes out weekly (with occaisional special issues),
usually on Sunday, and is typically 750-1000 lines per.

-----
Many of the Internet-based mailing lists are covered in some periodic
postings in news.announce.newusers & a couple other places.  They're
also anonymous ftp-able from rtfm.mit.edu.  BITNET lists can be found
by sending a message to

LISTSERV@uccvma.ucop.edu
with the message
list global

a few-thousand line file should then arrive in the mail (you have
been warned).

There's also a list of servers available which
has some overlap with the bitnet list of lists.
mail to
listserv@bitnic.educom.edu
with the message
sendme bitnet servers

(somewhat shorter file arrives)

I believe the BITNET lists of lists are also available via anonymous ftp
& maybe by other means but I don't happen to know where.
From: cabr01@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Scotland Demands Democracy!
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:01:27 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

Well, on Saturday the 12th of December, 25000 protestors filled the streets
of Edinburgh to take their greivance that Scotland has no say in who governs 
the Scots. This has been the largest demonstration since the Tories took
power in 1979. It corrected those who said that "the Scottish Question" was
dead. Major denied its legitimacy and was "embarassed" by it. Time and again 
he has argued that the UK should retain sovereignty within the EC yet he cannot
see the Scotland requires a voice too. When will he listen. When will Democracy 
reach Scotland?
    This may be news to Netters. The BBC did not mention it on a national
level. The Times was not aware of it today. This is all proof of the
manipulation of the truth to keep Britain English. BTW I was once in favour of
the Union. 
    I would be interested to hear of notification of this turning point in 
Scottish politics. Has anyone heard of it in the "UK" papers. If so how much?


Karl Stephen (Active member of the non-affiliated punters party).
From: jevremov@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (JEVREMOVIC VLADAN)
Subject: Re: Chetnik stamps
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:04:05 GMT

wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:

>Too bad there is no soc.culture.serbia, that is where this really belongs.

>For those interested in fascist history around 1941, I have a couple
>of pictures of postage stamps issued in "CP6UJA" (Serbia) in 1941,
>celebrating the triumph over the Jews.  Send me a stamped,
>self-addressed envelope and I will mail you a photocopy.  Both are

   Don't send a stamped self-addressed envelope to prof. Wickenhauser! He will
never send you back "fascist stamps". Instead, he will  use YOUR stamps to
mail Christmass cards to HIS friends.  

 
 Vladan



>Victor
>-- 
>Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
>Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
>Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
>Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Macedonian World Congress
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:18:53 GMT

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:


>   The people of Macedonian affirm that:

> 1) The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people,
>    conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their
>    language, and their name. The same applies to their descendants
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
>    today.

  Mr. Shopov:

  While I strongly believe that it is not worth dealing with lunatics like
  you, I feel I should make a brief comment on the crap that you have
  posted.

  If you really believe that what you are writing is correct, then I simply
  feel sorry for you, as well as for the people who have the same views with
  you (i.e., the followers of the largest party in Skopje).  In the past,
  many people in the network have accused Greeks of paranoia.  I hope your
  posting could help them understand who's paranoic.

  
  Dr. Panos Tamamidis

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Please crosspost this message!!
Date: 19 Dec 92 08:46:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Sinisa Mihajlovic-Miha, was my friend also! I am deeply stricken by his
death! Please, express my deepest sorrow to his family and more close 
friends....

  With hopes for peace

               ___      ___
       ___   _/   \    /  //                                  
          \_/  @   \  /  //    _/////                         
          /|-\_     \/  //   _/   _/                          
           |   \     \__//__/   _/                            
        ()/     \           __ /                              
        / ()     \_    \____  |////<                          
      ()           \_       \_______\                         
                     \______/                                 


Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:57:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.055430.5311@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>
>Thank you Gregory for the quote bellow.  I will include the preceeding
>paragraph also,  it is an important part of the process.  The setting is the
>end of the 19th century:
>
>"In these unfavorable circumstances,  local leaders established the Internal
>Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) in an EFFORT TO UNITE ALL THE
>ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE REGION AND TO ESTABLISH AN INDEPENDENT MACEDONIAN STATE.
>The IMRO leaders considered themselves Bulgarian but they also had a strong
>sense of regional identity and advocated "MACEDONIA FOR MACEDONIANS."  They
>did not prevail,  however;  following the Balkan wars (1912-1913) and World
>War I  Macedonia remained divided among Greece,  Serbia (later Yugoslavia),
>and Bulgaria"


So? In what sense this "helps" your arguments? I think that you
try the hardest methods in persuasion tactics: You present facts
which are against you by your self such as to diffuse the pressure.
I can't find a single help to your arguments but strong reenforcement
of mine (I cann't help it...).


Then you present some irrelevant historical background, but again
YOU make propaganda by failing to right down the whole thing:


>ORIGINS
>
>Macedonia experienced several centuries of Roman rule but during the 6th and
>the 7th centuries the region was SETTLED BY SLAVIC TRIBES WHO SOON ASSIMILATED
>MOST OF THE LOCAL POPULATION. In the second half of the 7th centuries Bulgars
>invaded the Balkans,  and they in turn were assimilated by Slavs.  the
>Bulgars,  or proto-Bulgarians,  established a state,  usually referred to as
>the First Bulgarian Kingdom,  which included most of Macedonia.
>
>Cristianity was introduced to the Bulgarian Kingdom during the 9th century
>when saints Cyril and Methodius and their disciples converted the population
>and formulated for them a Slavic alphabet,  Glagolitic,  from which Cyrillic
>later developed.  The Cyrillic alphabet is still used in Macedonian,  which by
>the mid 20-th century had evolved into a distinct South Slavic language,
>closely related to Bulgarian.  Most Macedonians still belong to the Eastern
>Orthodox Church.
>
>During the 10th century the Bulgarian state grew weaker and split into two.
>The western Bulgarian Kingdom with its capital in Ohrid was ruled by Tsar
>Samuil (997-1014) and many contemporary Macedonian historians regard this as
>the first Slavic Macedonian state.  Samuil also created the Archibishopric of
>Ohrid and proclaimed its ecclesiastical independence.


Vasil! Where is the sentence which says that in the 12 century AD
Macedonia was reconquered by the Byzantines? Do you selectively
avoid text again? What about the sentence about the short Serbian
control too?

And as I said and before. Look at the irony of the text: "..many
contemporary Macedonian historians..."; he is ashamed even to say it
without reference on who rights such a "history"...!


Gr
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:28:52 GMT

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:

>MACEDONIA: REALITY VERSUS HISTORY
>The Melbourne Age, Editorial Opinion.
>Tuesday 15 December 1992

>Wilder Macedonian nationalists have not
>helped matters by foolishly publishing maps showing expansion into
>Greek territory.

 He means natinalists who form the largest party in Skopje. It is not just
 two-three lunatics (like Mr. Shopov) who have lost their minds.  We are
 talking about the largest party.

 Not to forget their flag.  Outrageous ...

 Panos.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10179 soc.culture.europe:10635 soc.culture.greek:11671 soc.culture.bulgaria:1965 soc.culture.turkish:13424
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: SMH: Letters Section [Macedonia]
Date: 20 Dec 92 23:07:27 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia



SAS again jokes:


###############################################################################


                                                Victor Bivell
                                                Asquith NSW 2007
                                                Ph 02 477 6278
December 8, 1992

Ms Geraldine Walsh
Letters Editor
Sydney Morning Herald

Dear Ms Walsh,

bla bla ...

   The Macedonian population of northern Greece has fallen from over
                                                                ^^^^
one million in 1913 when Greece took over 51 per cent of Macedonia
^^^^^^^^^^^
to about 300,000 today. Many of these migrants fled to Australia.

more bla bla ...


###############################################################################


He, Mr. Bivell, hasn't even studied his homework from his propaganda
home Skopjia. And then he is expecting anybody to take him seriously
on what he tries to mumble! 

Oh well! At least he doesn't claim any Ph.D in ancient history; he
just tries to help :-)))!

Let's see what the official Skopjia says about the population in
Northern Greece in 1913. (Notice the obvious: No bulgarian mentioned!)


========================================================================

Simovski, T., "The  Balkan  Wars and their Repercussions on the Ethnical 
Situation  in  Aegean  Macedonia", Glasnik, Vol.XVI, No.3, Skopje, 1972.

Population  figures in  Aegean Macedonia, just before the Balkan Wars of 
1912, which saw the liberation of the areas from Ottoman rule:


Macedonians        326,426           Jews                         59,560
Turks              289,973           Vlachs                       45,457
Greeks             240,019           Muslim Macedonians (Pomaks)  40,921


Gypsies             29,803           Christian Turks               4,240
Muslim Greeks       13,753           Muslim Vlachs                 3,500
Muslim Albanians     5,584           Christian Albanians           3,291


Cherkez (Mongols)    2,112
Others               8,100
Total            1,072,739

========================================================================


So, one million was at the most all the population of Northern Greece.
The Skopjians (actually Bulgarians) were AT THE MOST one third of it...!!!

I know! I know! By blowing up the numbers by an order of magnitude helps
"our brave men" to feel even better :-))).

VIVA LA SKOPJIA! ORTSA LA PANTA!


Ciao!
From: news@cc.swarthmore.edu (USENET News System)
Subject: THE CASE OF SOMALIA
Originator: vuksan@ginger
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:32:56 GMT

****************************************************
The following text has been written by:
Ivo Skoric, 103 St Marks pl, New York, NY 10009, USA
telephone:(212) 995-5601 e-mail: iskoric@igc.apc.org
****************************************************

THE CASE OF SOMALIA
The case of Somalia just shows the whole cynism of the cold war
superpowers. Since 1969. Somalia had a marxist regime that was
supported by Moscow, which was eager to overthrow Ethiopia's
western oriented government. When Soviets finally got their guys
in power in Ethiopia in 1974, Somalia was of no more interest to
them, so they left. Ethiopians took revenge against Somalia. So,
desperate Somali's regime turned to the U.S. for help. Although
Somalia was a communist country, U.S. did not hesitate a moment to
take over old Soviet military bases. But in 1990 - after collapse
of Soviet power and the end of the cold war, Americans left
Somalia, too. Regime in Somalia collapsed, and country, that was
for years mearly an airfield and navy harbour for superpowers, felt
to clan warfare.
An interesting detail is that Somali language was not a written
language till 1969! So, practically entire Somali culture is
borrowed from neighbouring states and colonial powers.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Avert Armageddon [Macedonia]
Date: 19 Dec 92 14:56:32 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Dec16.125912.5295@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:

[deleted]

>more. Greece has been succesful till now in preventing the missuse
>of the name and the symbols, as well as the other purposses. Whatever
>is decided in the near future Grece and Skopjia will have to live togethre.
>It will be stupid to have Greece as enemies. Healthy econic relationships
>can only be with Greece. All others, Albania, Serbia even Bulgaria wants 
>pieces.

Could you please avoid such noncence next time you write on Macedonia.
Bulgaria has always been for autonomous and independent Macedonia and there
is no need to twist the matter. It is true that in past periods it was due
to the ethnic Bulgarian population there, and now - because of the wish to
stop the anti-Bulgarian propaganda under which the people in Vardar
Macedonia lived for 70 years, but that doesn't change the subject. As for
Serbian intentions - they arose ONLY after 1881-89, after the secret
Austro-Serbian treaties.


>	George

Luben
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: YES RE, I AM MAKEDONIAN
Date: 18 Dec 1992 08:49:45 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (Kiro Grigorof's kid brother) writes:
* 3) Macedonian was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, Greece
*    was often subject to Macedonia. In 1913, Greece and her Balkan
*    allies partitioned Macedonia, and if today a portion of
*    Macedonian belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal
*    partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.

And "Macedonia" would eventually decide to rectify this "illegal
partition" and reverse the partition, right?

*  MACEDONIANS AND GREEKS THROUGH THE AGES
* 
*   Throughout antiquity, the Chasia and Kamvounia mountains, Mount
*Olympus, and the vale of Tempe separated Macedonia from Greece.

I see. Is that where Kiro & Co. want the borders? Well, might as 
well, the weather sucks there (i.e. in places like Florina, Kastoria).

*   There is no evidence that prehistoric Macedonia was ever occupied
*by Greeks.

The weather sucked. They all moved to Crete.

*   The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of
*Chaeronea in August 338 B.C. and appointed himself "Commander of the
*Greeks." The date is commonly takes as the end of Greek history and
*the beginning of the Macedonian era.

So I'm Macedonian?

*        [Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 A.D.]

Ssssssh, Arxid may be listening.

* * Greece was conquered by Macedonia at the battle of Chaeronea
*   in 338 B.C.

So I AM MAKEDONIAN. BROTHER!!! BROTHER!!! BROTHER!!! Go Skopje!!

Spiroski Triantafyllopoulof (maked-o-phonics too)
--
(will someone send me a picture of the $#^%$#0z$# vergina star?)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek