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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:01:16 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2887
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2887

                         Wednesday, August 19, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 697

                             Re: "Blind Loyalty"
                              Art and the blind
                       window bridge and syntha-voice
                             Re: Braille Manuals
                         Synthavoice Another Opinion
                                 Re: Flipper
                               Re: Jaws macros
                          Re: Braille N Speak Compl
                                 Re: flipper
                              Art and the Blind


                                ******


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------



Subject: Re: "Blind Loyalty"
From: Mike.Freeman@f126.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Freeman)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/126 - Lawson & Reay, Vancouver WA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hello, Jamal!

In a message to Mike Freeman <26 Jul 92 21:48> Jamal Mazrui wrote:

 JM> Hi Mike!  I think it is significant
 JM> that you cannot seem to express any
 JM> disagreements on issues with Jernigan.  Given the context
 JM> of the debate here about how democratic NFB is and given
 JM> your defense of that democracy and claims that you think
 JM> for yourself, I think it quite natural for me to ask you
 JM> to name some specific issues with which you disagree.  I
 JM> did not say that if you agree with an issue you did not
 JM> think for yourself in reaching that opinion.  Of course a
 JM> free thinker can arrive at the same conclusions as others.

Well, Jamal, in my last post on the subject, I gave you an answer of the
heart.  Obviously, it did not suffice so I will give you an answer of
the head.  In fact, having been in the NFB for over a decade before your
expulsion, you know the answer as well as I.  Before giving it, however,
I will say that anyone who agrees one hundred percent of the time with
someone else is either an automaton or a fool.  Being neither, I have
had my disagreements with Dr. Jernigan (as well as others) on matters of
policy and methods.  Sometimes my views prevailed; sometimes theirs did.
That is the essence of a democracy.

I did not say that I *could* not discuss disagreements with Dr.
Jernigan; I said, in effect, that I would not do so, giving the analogy
of a dispute within a family.  Here is the "head" answer.  When one
joins the Federation, one may receive a membership card, upon which is
written what is known colloquially as the "Federation pledge".  It goes
something like this:  I pledge to actively participate in the efforts of
the National Federation of the Blind to achieve security, equality and
opportunity for the blind, to support the programs and policies of the
Federation and to abide by its Constitution.  This means that I have
voluntarily pledged not to criticize the programs and policies of the
Federation in public outside the organization (after all, I do not have
to join the Federation) and that, in fact, I have pledged to actively
support the policies of the organization whether I agree with them or
not until I can get them changed.  Furthermore, the Federation
Constitution which I have pledged to support contains a provision that
Federation members, local chapters and state affiliates must not engage
in attacks upon the Federation or its policies outside the Federation
and must not, in effect, engage in behavior with the aim of causing
dissention for its own sake.  This does not mean that I cannot work for
changes in policy; it simply means that once a policy is set by
resolution of the NFB National Convention (or state affiliate or local
chapter, in cases where there is no national NFB policy) that I may not
openly attack the policy.  The purpose of these provisions is to present
a unified front to those who would oppose us or who need to know what
NFB policy is on a given issue without equivocation.

YOu may now argue that if Dr. Jernigan is not the Federation, it would
not hurt (and would help my case) to disclose some areas of disagreement
between him and me.  I answer that, as Executive Director, he is the
employee of the Federation -- he is, in fact, *my* employee -- and is
therefore obligated to carry out Federation policies.  To air our
disagreements in public would be a violation of my pledge to the
Federation in cases wherein Dr. Jernigan agreed with Federation policy
and would or could subject him to questioning regarding policies he, as
a member of the Federation, is pledged to uphold, in cases wherein he
disagreed with Federation policy.  I therefore will not discuss matters
of disagreement with Federation leaders, employees or members in public
forums such as this.

In a sense, though, all this pallaver is beside the point.  In many
ways, the Federation *is* a family; we care for and about each other; we
are supportive of each other in times of adversity and there is the
close-knit feeling that one gets in a close family.  I would therefore
be loath to criticize Federation policies or personnel in public even
were there no policies or tradition within the Federation on the
subject.  This sort of party loyalty Truman would have understood
perfectly.  It is the sort of party loyalty that has largely disappeared
during the last fifty years and whose demise is, in part, responsible,
IMHO, for the state of paralysis we findourselves in today in this
country.

Incidentally, I cannot help but reflect that public criticism of one's
spouse is a good way to start or exacerbate family strife.

Jamal, I realize that the foregoing probably will not satisfyeither you
or other NFB critics.  In effect, you (and they) consider the conditions
of membership unacceptable.  That is okay.  To those who maintain that
the organization is undemocratic, however, I say:  come to a national
convention -- come to Dallas in 1993 -- and see for yourselves.

Cordially,

Mike Freeman
___ CRR QWK 1.40

--
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Internet: Mike.Freeman@f126.n105.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Art and the blind
From: Doug.Coyle@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Coyle)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:377/6 - T.A.B.B., Tampa Fl


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Did you read the article in last month's Braille Monitor regarding
the exhibit in Chicago which is doing tours for blind people, and
the reporter who went through it with his eyes closed to experience
what it would be like for a blind person to go through the house?
The article the reporter did was absolutely ridiculous, and a blind
patron of the arts wrote a letter to the editor of the Chicago
Tribune which the Monitor reprints.  I'm like you, not into touch
art, but this lady is someone who has been into it all her life,
and you may want to try to contact her if you are interested in
learning about it. d/c

===
 * SLMR 2.1a * when agnostics die do they go to the great perhaps?

--
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Internet: Doug.Coyle@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: window bridge and syntha-voice
From: Paul.Nobrega@p0.f266.n163.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Nobrega)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:163/266.0 - Vision, Ottawa ON


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

As far as the validityof syntha-voice and their products is
concern, i would like to     point out that A.T&T demonstrated
Window Bridge at the NFB National Convention.
They would have to be crazy to demo a product that didn't work;
as they would not want to taint their reputation in the industry.
Also; the product has been reviewed by Byte magazine.
Therre will be an article in the September issue written
by Joe Lazzaro; a well known blind author who
heads the Technical Division of the State Commission for the
blind in Boston.
In the October issue of Byte; Amanda Waterfield from Byte
magazine will have an
artical on Window Bridge.
Once again; would sources of this reputation jepardize their
standing intheir field by writing about a ficticious or poor
product?
Negotiations are underway with Windows magazine; who
will be publishing an article on the product.

i really hope that this bit of info wil help to correct some
unfair perceptions and give syntha-voice and its staff the
credibility it deserves. i feel that when such a firm is devoting
so much energy in bettering our conditions, it should be
encouraged, not put down. even if some things were not adequate,
there are ways of informing the concerned firm or person;
mouthing them will not help the blind in any way, espacially
whenthe the  criticism is not not coming from informed sources.
let's work together rather than against each other.
paul

--
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Internet: Paul.Nobrega@p0.f266.n163.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Braille Manuals
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting David Andrews to David Tanner  8 Aug 92 01:57:02

 DA> I have also received a number of expensive, (very expensive)
DA> refreshable Braille displays without manuals in Braille.  Now that
DA> is unforgivable.

Hello David, that could be said a thousand times.  All braille
equipment should come with braille manuals.  I believe you once said
the braillo Comet also didn't come with a braille manual either.  Oh
well, if it'd be anything like the one they shipped with the Braillo
90, we're not missing much.  But on the other hand, you'd think
they'd have learned something.  You sure don't have to worry about
that when you buy a printer from Enabling!  They have braille
manuals and damn good ones at that!  I can't wait to see the one on
the Juliet, and I just hope it has all the nice technical and
servicing information that all their other manuals have.  Why their
manuals even tell you which tools you need to repair their
printers. It's almost as though these other printer companies have
something to hide.  It's like pulling a chicken's teeth if these
other companies tell you how to change a fuse, not to mention number
of solenoids, MTBF, etc.  The Enabling Printers even list the MTBF
rating. Simply phenomenal. Do you think the Braillo Comet has a chance
of selling very well with the Juliet out there?  Keith.

... "If the shoe fits, buy it!" - Imelda Marcos

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Synthavoice Another Opinion
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hello everyone.  Since I've been talking about Synthavoice for some time
I've been looking around for more opinions on this company from their
own homeland, Canada.  I am incorporating these two messages about
Synthavoice which I read over on BlindTalk, into this message without
any comment on my part.

D Area: Blindtlk DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
  Msg#: 933             Rec'd                        Date: 08-02-92  20:05
  From: Ian Hebert
    To: Dale Hayes
  Subj: Slimware windowbridge
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
 Quoting Ian Hebert to Dale Hayes 08-02-92  20:05

 DH>I am skeptical because of my past experiences with slimware.  We have their
 DH>package here and we had (I mean HAD) three users here in
 DH>the state.  The technical support was bad, the product did
 DH>not work as stated. (In fact we had some things that even
 DH>Hutchinsons VOS would read that Synthevoice would not!!!) I
 DH>will be interested in seeing them in Charlotte.  I have
 DH>also caught them in some outright lies about their product.
 DH> I think there will be some ex-users from Nebraska who will
 DH>want to (literally) get their hand on them.
 DH>Dale Hayes

 IH> Dear Dale:

 IH> I'm not surprised that there are some ex-users in Nebraska who would
 IH> like to get their hands on Dave Kostyshyn of Synthavoice.  First,
 IH> however, they will have to wait in line--there are a lot of people
 IH> here in Canada who have first dibs on Synthavoice.

 IH> Ian Hebert

 IH> ___
 IH> X OLX 2.1 TD X All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.

 IH> -!- Maximus 2.01wb
 IH>  ! Origin: NFB NET Baltimore, MD (410) 752-5011 (1:261/1125)

D Area: Blindtlk DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
  Msg#: 934             Rec'd                        Date: 08-02-92  20:14
  From: Ian Hebert
    To: David Andrews
  Subj: Slimware windowbridge
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
 Quoting Ian Hebert to David Andrews 08-02-92  20:14

 DA>DH>I am skeptical because of my past experiences with
 DA>DH>slimware.  We have the
 DA>DH>package here and we had (I mean HAD) three users here in
 DA>DH>the state.  The technical support was bad, the product did
 DA>DH>not work as stated. (In fact we had some things that even
 DA>DH>Hutchinsons VOS would read that Synthevoice would not!!!) I
 DA>DH>will be interested in seeing them in Charlotte.  I have
 DA>DH>also caught them in some outright lies about their product.

 DA>I read your words with interest.  I spoke with a guy who has used the
 DA>SynthaVoice Windows Bridge, for a couple hours, and he says it does seem to
 DA>work.  He will be at NFB in CS tuesday.

 DA>I have also spoken to others in the sensory aids field who share your views
 DA>the company.  In some circles, their reputation is for
 DA>being less than truthful.
 DA>David Andrews

 IH> David:

 IH> I would like to echo your comments regarding Syntha-Voice's reputation
 IH> for being less than truthful.  All I can say about it is that, if
 IH> anything, this belief is even more widely held in Canada than it is in
 IH> the United States.

 IH> I can remember a demonstration that I attended at the Canadian
 IH> National Institute for the Blind (CNIB) about five years ago.  David
 IH> Kostyshyn, President of Synthavoice, was there demonstrating his
 IH> product, as well as Maryland Computer Services (MCS), who were
 IH> demonstrating their Totaltalk PC.

 IH> Mr. Kostyshyn's behaviour during this demonstration reminded me of the
 IH> antics of TSI's Dr. Bliss as described in the latest Braille Monitor.
 IH> Mr. Kostyshyn was his usual aggressive, abrasive self.  At no time did
 IH> he miss an opportunity to run-down or denigrate the Totaltalk or
 IH> Maryland Computer Services--even going so far as to interrupt MCS's
 IH> presentation with his outbursts!

 IH> Even though I was rather impressed with the voice and some other
 IH> features of Mr. Kostyshyn's machine, I remember thinking that as good
 IH> as his product might be, having to deal with him would make it not
 IH> worth our while.

 IH> Once again, last June 23rd, I attended a demonstration at the CNIB at
 IH> which a number of exhibitors touted their wares.  Mr. Kostyshyn was
 IH> again among them.  Judging by the remarks I heard him make that day, I
 IH> would say that he hasn't changed an iota over the last five years.

 IH> Ian Hebert

 IH> ___
 IH> X OLX 2.1 TD X Hello, I am part number ||X||||X||X||X||

 IH> -!- Maximus 2.01wb
 IH>  ! Origin: NFB NET Baltimore, MD (410) 752-5011 (1:261/1125)

... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Keith.Bucher
Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: Flipper
From: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Keith Bucher)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 Quoting Dennis Bartlett to All 06 Aug 92 21:25:12

 DB> I understand that the latest version of Flipper is being tested.  Do
 DB> any of you know about this? I am a Flipper user,  except that I am
 DB> getting into a situation where I have to change computers quite a bit.

Hello Dennis, I too am a flipper user and I was told by Steve Smith at
the ACB convention in Phoenix that version 4 wouldn't have the same
unlocking scheme as earlier ones.  I posted a message earlier about
some of the things which are supposed to be in the new version, and if
you missed it, send me a tape and mailer to P.O. Box 130, Reader, WV
26167, and I'll fill you in.  I look forward to hearing from you.  Keith
Bucher.

... Programmers do it with their fingers.

--
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Internet: Keith.Bucher@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Jaws macros
From: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Tanner)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

The Jaws macro editor can be used either from the Jaws menu or can
be called from the DOS level.

        D. T.

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Internet: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Braille N Speak Compl
From: Les.Kriegler@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Les Kriegler)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:260/207 - The Recovery Room, Rochester NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 WW>      The reason you saw hundreds of people at the ACB convention with
 WW> their Braille 'n Speaks tossed over their shoulder is..

 WW> 1.  Many of them probably have never used a computer, wanted to use a
 WW> computer, and simply wanted a braille input device that can store all
 WW> those little things that sighted people keep in a similarly sized paper
 WW> pad.

Willie, I remeber meeting a friend of mine who was sighted ina
Radio Shack about a year ago.  He had a device which wieghed
about a pount which had a variety of functions, including a
notepad, scheduler, calculator, etc.  It was rather
inexpensive, and I thought it would be great if a blind person
had a similar device.  The Braille and Speak is such a device,
and overall, it is an excellent piece of equipment.  However,
the price should come down to some degree.  One question I
would pose here is how often do you see the price of adaptive
equipment come down?  It's not fair to compare out devices
with those on the commercial market.  Many products have come
down more that fifty percent during the past year or two
alone.  While it's not practical to expect that dramatic a
drop for a market which pales in comparison, it seems that
some kind of reduction should be in order, particularly when
one considers how popular the B.N.S. apparently is.
 WW> 2.  Chuck spoke about his 6 pound notebook, which I assume doesn't
 WW> include the external synthesizer he would also have to carry around if
 WW> he wanted to use it like a Braille 'n Speak!  You have any idea what the
 WW> difference between 2 pounds and 6 pounds plus can mean to convenience?

Your point is well-taken there.  While portability is worth
something, you would have to spend upwards of $2000 for a
laptop with speech and screen reading software.  The B.N.S.
disk drive is a nice feature, but not an essential in using
this device.
 WW> 3.  The size and unobtrusiveness of a notebook computer and synthesizer
 WW> and a Braille 'n Speak can't even begin to be compared, and anyone who
 WW> thinks they can has obviously not experienced carrying them both around,
 WW> something I have done!

I haven't tried it myself, but I gather that you are unable to
acquire a carrying case for both units?
 WW> 4.  Although comparing a Braille 'n Speak and a notebook computer may
 WW> not be an apples and oranges thing, it is most definitely an oranges
 WW> versus grapefruit thing, and yes, although this doesn't justify a high
 WW> price tag at today's standards, the BNS has been around a hell of a lot
 WW> longer than the new, low priced notebook computers!

All the more reason to begin to lower the price!
 WW>      I will admit, the price of the Braille 'n Speak coming down would
 WW> make me a lot happier, but you guys comparing it with the price of a
 WW> notebook computer cracks me up!  Let's add to that notebook computer
 WW> price a synthesizer, a speech program, and just the software necessary
 WW> to duplicate the things the Braille 'n Speak does do, and we're talking
 WW> a far more expensive item.  Even after we do all this, the portability
 WW> just isn't there, nor is the braille input capability some may prefer!
 WW> How can you be ignoring the fact that a notebook computer isn't an

This debate will not be solved here, but as more programs are
written for the B.N.S. the unit's value will increase
substantially.  By the way, as we push for enhancements and
added capabilities, let's not forget basic editing
capabilities and push for improvements where appropriate.
For example, Over write mode limits the user to one character.
It really would be much more useful to have over write mode
work with an unlimited number of characters, as is the case
with insert mode.  With the 640, I should think that should be
workable.  Regards, Les

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Internet: Les.Kriegler@f207.n260.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: flipper
From: Tandy.Way@f6.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Tandy Way)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:377/6 - T.A.B.B., Tampa Fl


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I talked to the author last thursday and he said a new flipper was
in beta trials right now with 5 or 6 testers. he was going to
release it to a wider group of testers soon then public release. no
time frames given. tandy

Tandy

... Buy in haste, repair at leisure
=== Via Silver Xpress V3.01

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Subject: Art and the Blind
From: Gary.Petraccaro@f12.n2610.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Petraccaro)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2610/12 - Post Road Inn, Greensburg PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Cindy,

I think most of us don't like what we probably feel as being caught
out touching in public.  Therefore, we tend to reject these kinds
of shows.  I went to one type of show (not what you're talking
about, but, one with 3D art), and I find that regardless of what I
thought going in, I still remember the experience positively.

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------






                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2887 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
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