From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Sean: TESTIMONY CALLOUT!  Happy?
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:17:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

Sean Hartigan writes:
>John Muehlhausen writes:
>> 
>> First of all, have any non-Christians expressed the assurance I am calling
>> faith (faith==absolute knowledge of unseen)?  I don't recall any...
>> 
>
>Ask any devout Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu, any devout North American Indian
>or Jew, or, any New Ager or any Wiccan or animist....

So now I ask... I am not going to search back through all newsgroups
everywhere, because the chance of hitting on what I want is not very good.
Would anyone care to offer a testimony including :

 - What are your beliefs
 - How have your religious (or non-r) views changed your life for the better
 - What external (not psychological) evidence is there IN YOUR OWN LIFE?
 - What internal (inner-man) evidence is there?
 - Why do you hold to your views?
 - What will become of those who don't hold your views?
 - If there was no recorded history, how would that affect your views?
 - Are you 100% positive that you would spend eternity in paradise if
   you died right now?
 - Anything else...

>Newsflash: World population -- approx. 5 billion.
>	   Christians --  approx 1.2 billion

I would say much less than that who are sincere Christians

>	   Non- Christians ---  approx 3.8 billion!!!
>
>Newsflash --- world's fastest growing religion:  ISLAM.

This does not suprise me -- it has been made very clear that the
current translations of the Qur'an are scientifically palatable,
which would account for growth in an increasingly technological
world community.

>Newsflash --- a "conversion war" is currently on in Africa between
>	Christian and Islamic missionaries. Who is winning? Which
>	faith is answering more people's spiritual needs? ISLAM.

One cannot measure the meeting of spiritual needs outside of oneself.
A spike in Islam does not have to be because it is true (there have been
other such spikes).

I like Islam.  It is full of human wisdom and good values.  It is missing
the narrow path back to God, however, which is Jesus Christ.  Because of
that, though it is much in the eyes of the world, it is nothing in comparison
to genuine Christianity.

>John, old, buddy, if statistics are any indication, Christianity is FAR
>from the "sole provider of assurance of Truth" that you assert that it is.
>It never cease to amaze how ignorant the average Christian is WRT other
>religious traditions....

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who have no concrete views are
ready to offer that others have them, and for good reason. :-)  You are not
really in a position to discuss this, as you don't have any concrete views.

>> I don't recall any posts where a non-Christian relates a wholistic assurance
>> in their belief (i.e. through all aspects of human thought, including reason,
>> emotion, experience, gut feelings, etc, etc.).  None who are as blatantly
>> stubborn about their position. :-)  
>
>Ha! Ever heard of Islamic Jihad? Ever heard of the Buddhist monks who burn
>themselves alive for causes they feel are right? If THAT'S not "wholistic
>assurance" I don't know what is...!

Speaking of dying for something... "For while we were still helpless, at
the right time Christ died for the ungodly.  For one will hardly die for a
righteous man [cause]; though perhaps for the good man [or cause] someone
would dare even to die. [Sounds like you Buddhist monks...] But God
demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us." (Romans 5:6-8)

You see that is the key.  I do not deny that Islam has some VERY valid
points.  Would you sacrifice everything for your worst enemy?  Through
sin we are enemies of God, but His love is so great that He made the
ultimate sacrifice to bring us back to Him.

Without exception Christianity is the only "religion" which recognizes that
man, of himself, cannot please God or be reunited with Him.  I know you
know this, but it is still the most amazing fact about Christianity and one
that makes it truly unique.

The assurance that the Buddhist monk is missing is the assurance that even if
he didn't burn himself alive he would still be righteous through God's grace.
He can't have this assurance because he does not have Christ.  I would say
that burning yourself alive is certainly a last ditch effort to please God.
I would call this a strong, but unwarranted conviction (or foolishness...)
I don't think I would put that in the same category as faith.
If you asked this individual if they were 100% without a shadow of a doubt
sure that they would spend eternity in paradise with God he would have
said "no".

>> Could it be that they are not as sure?
>
>You TRY and win an argument with an Islamic missionary. Good luck!!

I'm sure we'll here from some. :-)

>> They base their beliefs only on reason and intellectual feasability, whereas
>> the Christian will acknowledge that reason is an issue, but by far not the
>> sum total of religious experience.  There are some on the other end as well.
>> 
>> John M.
>
>Jumpin jiminy! Ever heard of the Sufis? Ever heard of Hindu "illumination" or
>Buddhist "enlightenment?" Ever read or heard ANYTHING about Native American
>religion?  John, buddy, your posts on this net display a _shocking_ ignorance
>of history, other religious traditions, and current affairs. I'm not going
>to give you any advice...but still...it is VERY hard to take you seriously.
>It's like listening to lectures on calculus from a man who obviously can't
>even multiply...

I am not nearly as stupid as you want to think. :-)  These things are what I
meant by "the other end" (ignoring reason).  I should have elaborated.
Do you only discredit me in front of yourself or do you want everyone to
think that I have nothing worth listening to?  I would say that Christianity
is unusually balanced...

>Sean Hartigan
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca

John M.