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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 03:52:00 EST
From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      False Prophet

Jeff Shirton quotes and writes...

js> Nuzz,
js>
js> n> organization's historical position regarding Brigham Young.  From what
js> n> I have read, Brigham Young was either speaking as a prophet, or as a
js> n> false prophet -- there is no middle ground.
js>
js> You are clearly incorrect in this statement, when you say "there is no
js> middle ground."  You are attributing a property to Brigham Young that no
js> Mormon would ever attribute to him, that is the property of absolute
js> infallibility.

     I don't see how I'm attributing the property of infallibility to Brigham
     Young when I mention that he is a false prophet. Prophecy and
     infallibility are not the same, nor was I stating that they were.

     I clearly cited that the pronouncements of Brigham Young's were spoken
     as revelation. He was claiming to be a prophet of God in his
     statements. As you responded later to Kerry:

js> Sam says, "The Lord saith, 'A circle has four corners.' "  Does this show
js> that Sam is a false prophet?  Yes, because the satement comes from God,
js> _through_ Sam.  Can you see the difference?

     This is exactly what we are talking about. In my original post, I
     quoted, among other things, that:

    [... ...]

    "When I have spoken by the power of God and the Holy Ghost, it is the
    truth, it is scripture, and I have no fears but that it will agree with
    all that has been revealed in every particular." _Deseret Weekly News_,
    26:27a.

    [... ...]

    "What I know concerning God ... I have received from the heavens, not
    alone through my natural ability, and I give God the glory and the
    praise." _Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses_, 16:46.

    [... ...]

    "... How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in
    regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God
    revealed to me -- namely, that Adam is our Father God. ..." _Brigham
    Young, Journal of Discourses_ 1:50.  _Deseret News_, June 18, 1873.

    [... ...]

     Brigham Young is clearly teaching that this which he is revealing has
     been revealed to him by God. He has ``...spoken by the power of
     God...'', ``...God revealed to me...''

     This is what I quoted in the original note. And, in your reply to Kerry,
     you clearly emphasized that these conditions were to be met for one to
     discern if there was a false prophet. By your own definition Brigham
     Young is a false prophet. Yet when I said as much, you said that I was
     ``...clearly incorrect...''

     I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. Brigham Young clearly fits your
     parameters for what constitutes a false prophet, yet you say that it is
     clearly incorrect to refer to him as such. Could you amplify on this?

                             +         +         +

     You also quoted Kerry, and said:

js> ks> The Prophet of the
js> ks> LDS church claims the same prophet status as in the OLD testament
js> ks> (as does the Pope).
js>
js> Chapter and verse, please, from any LDS standard work.

     The President of the LDS holds the office of seership (_D&C_, 107:92;
     124:94; 125). Mosiah 8:15 starts, ``A seer is greater than a prophet...
     a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater
     can no man have...''

     The duty of the President is ``to preside over the whole church, and to
     be like unto Moses --- Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a
     revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God
     which he bestows upon the head of the church'' (_D&C_ 107:91-92; 21:1).

     The President of the LDS church is said to be the mouthpiece of God on
     earth, ``Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which
     he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness
     before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from my own mouth, in
     all patience and faith'' (_D&C_ 21:4-5).


     That should suffice. But this raises an interesting question. According
     to D&C 21:4-5, quoted above, does the President *have* to say, ``Thus
     saith the Lord...'' in order for his words to be taken by the faithful
     as being from God?

                             +         +         +

     Also, to re-posit the original dilemma:

McConkie refers to this doctrine [Adam-god] as a heresy, and says that the
devil keeps it alive, President Brigham Young claimed that it came directly
from God. Over twenty years after he first publicly proclaimed the Adam-god
doctrine, Brigham Young emphasized that God Himself had revealed it to him.

Where does this leave us? Should we accept the Church's claim that the early
prophets *were* prophets and therefore authoritative? If that is the case,
then we must charge the modern LDS church with apostasy, for the modern LDS
church absolutely denies this revelations.

Or should we discard the early Mormon prophets as men who received erroneous
revelations and were therefore false prophets, since their teachings are
rejected by the leadership of today? If so, then the entire Mormon Church
collapses, for it is based squarely on the *divine* authority of such men.

In the end, we are faced with two equally unpleasant options. Either 1) The
Modern Church is in apostasy and cannot be trusted or 2) the early prophets
were deceivers or deceived men and cannot be trusted.

In the end, when one has found both of these decisions to be wanting, the
truth shall be found to be waiting for the seeker. Not in an organization of
men, but in the person of Jesus Christ.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU