From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: Please don't claim what I haven't said (was Re: Why Macedonia - Part I - 1), 2) and 3)
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:29:56 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Dec11.220357.22591@wuecl.wustl.edu> ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) writes:

>About oppresion of greeks/bulgarians in Bulgaria/Greece. 
> 
>We, in Greece read books and accounts of well-known greeks from Eastern
>Rumelia refering to their lives there, as well as stories 
>about the fight for Macedonia, during the beginning of the century
>- involving terrible attrocities.

I think there was difference in Rumelia and Macedonia. I can't 'buy' both
stories as the same. I can more 'understand' the Macedonian stories, but
all diplomatic records, etc, etc. speak about attrocities of all sides. One
can harldly count them. (alas). 

> If you know reliable, objective
>sources that state that the bulg. in Greece had much worse
>treatment than the greeks in Bulgaria, that's fine; I don't argue
>on that, I can't!

As I told you - this was the statement of official British documents,
prepared for the Paris Peace conference (for the British diplomats there).
And Greece was ally to Britain and Bulgaria was 'enemy' !!!

> Anyway, our treatment of the bulgarians, esp. 

You didnt treat Bulgarians neither I terated Greeks so I'm not a big fan of
such statements.

>during the Metaxas' time, is a matter of disgrace and shame for us.
>But, please don't tell me one word regarding the Bulgarian behavior
>during the WW2 axis occupation of N. Greece: it was a true disgrace as well!

I never said. I only stated that (alas) it's very hard for me to find
objective sources on the matter. I don't see any reason why soldiers, etc
cant' committ attrocities. The problem is the scale and the reasons - i.e.
were these orders, or was it local initiatives. As a matter of fact, there
are so many examples when Bulgarians killed/persecuted Bulgarians, I'm sure
the same is for Greeks. So what? And if it's a local matter is one thing,
if it is official run policy (like Hitlers camps for the Jews, etc)  -quite
different. It';s aslo different if you can quote that the Bulgarian King
ordered killings, etc, or the local captain did it.

>About proportions of Macedonian populations, division, etc. 
>
>I respect your knowledge and interest on the subject. I don't know
>enough to argue for anything before 1870. You are right. I only
>know about the Ottoman and other statistics refering to the early
>1900's

No problem. I know them as well :-)

> - I have also seen a british(?) ethnological map of around
>that time;

Can you tell me which one? There are many of them.

> and I am only speaking about today's greek Macedonia: the
>Bulgarians were NOT  a majority there then.

According to most of the maps - they were. I'd be happy to present you a
list of all ethnic maps from that time, if you insist. Bulgarians WERE a
majority there apart from the Aegean coast where the Greeks were majority.
And I also have access to almost all statistics - I know Amadore Virgilli
as well :-)

> And those who left were
>roughly equal in numbers to the greeks that came from Monastiri and
>E. Rumelia.

Not true. I have to find the population exchange figures but as far as I
remember it was something like 2:1 (i.e. exchange of 2 Bulgarians for 1
Greek) and even so - 81.000 Bulgarians left in Greece (virtually no - in
Bulgaria) - according to League of nation sources. But I find nothing very
special, or relevant for the present in that. It was just like this 80
years ago, now matters are different.


>To finish, guys, I wrote my postings because after reading scb for
>some time I sensed [I hope I was wrong and apparently I was] a trend
>for "revansism" (I'm sorry for the choice of a strong word for lack
>of a better term) so evident in the ex-communist countries.

Don't worry - so far I haven't noticed such in Bulgaria. But Bulgarians
don't know the facts from the past, and I intend to present them. This is
by ABSOLUTE NO MEANS revisionism. Please understand this.

> Understandable
>to some extent, for people who have been for so long forced to learn often
>fabricated versions of their history and not to demand their rights.

That's an interesting subject. However, I strongly suspect that
"fabricated" versions of history (the Bulgarian from "our" schools is
undoubtedly so, but you don't know in what direction - i.e. it was in
anti-Bulgarian direction) exist not only in ex-communist countries. Alas, I
have a lot of reasons to believe in those words of mine.

>Please understand that other people in W.Europe have - hopefully -
>long before gone through this particular stage that has resulted in
>this wave of nationalism and claims in E. Europe. 

Well, Germany had its nationalism only 50 years ago. And what I see from
some reports from France, and what I was told exists in Austria, does not
make the "West" that rosy flower you think it is. But this is by no means
an excuse that we must not fight towards chauvinism on the Balkans. I don't
like nationalists as much as I don't like people with no care about their
nation and fatherland. Maybe the first are more dangerous but alas, for
some countries, the fabricated history lead to feelings for inferioity of
your own people, which is rather sad :-(

>Hopefully the discussion will end here.

I don't mind discussing problems/facts with you. But this is PAST and I
don't regard 1912-1926 as a matter of significantly greater relevance than
1014. But I think that we all can learn a bit of more history out of our
schools and in such discussions :-)

>Best regards,
>Labros

Likewise

Luben