HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: GE.SPM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Suzanne Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ancient History Novels
Date: 22 Jan 1993 13:32:40 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <C188Cr.4KD@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link) writes:
>For Greek historical novels, there are none finer than anything by Mary
>Renault. I particularly enjoyed her series about Theseus..."Fire From
>Heaven"  "The Bull From the Sea"  "The King Must Die".
>
>All excellent.
>
>Susanna
> [...]

I second this recommendation!  One correction, _Fire From Heaven_ is
her first in a series of novels about Alexander the Great; it was
followed by _The Persian Boy_ and _Funeral Games_ (her Alexander
does bear certain similarities to her Theseus, though, doesn't he?).

She also wrote _The Last of the Wine_ and _The Mask of Apollo_,
which are set in the times of, and feature as characters, Socrates
and Plato (the latter appears as a young man in TLotW and as a
middle-aged man in TMoA); and _The Praise Singer_, the fictionalized
life of a lyric poet during the Archaic period.

I'd also recommend that fans of the Theseus novels take a look at
Evangeline Walton's _The Sword Is Forged_, which tells the story of
Theseus and Hippolyta (the same subject covered by the first part of
_The Bull from The Sea_) more from Hippolyta's point of view.  This
is the same author who wrote a series of four novels based on the
Mabinogion; I believe I remember reading in the Introduction to TSIF
that she had planned a series on the Theseus legend as well; if
anyone knows of any succeeding volumes, please post!

Suzanne
From: hal@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Harold B. Prince)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 07:30:10 GMT
Subject: What is this book?
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books

	What is this book?  I remember neither the title nor the
author.

	I got it from a library at least 4 or 5 years ago; I think
it was new then.

	The author was a woman, and I'm pretty sure she was
British.  The book is a novel, written in the first person.

	The plot was about the author's search for her sister,
who had gotten "brainwashed" by some religious cult, who were
either the Moonies or some group like them.  The author accepts
an invitation from some members of the group to go visit them at
their house.  She goes along with them, without telling them that
she is looking for her sister.  She writes about the ways that
the group tries to pressure new people into becoming gung-ho
group members.  At first, she is a detached observer.  But,
towards the end of the book, she starts to get hooked herself.

	It was really quite well done, and positively eerie at times.

	Please email any suggestions to hal@cup.hp.com.  Thanks!

						-Hal Prince
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:25960 alt.president.clinton:1689
From: cornell@inoc.dl.nec.com (C.J.K.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Text of Angelou's Poem HERE
Date: 22 Jan 93 00:54:03 GMT
Reply-To: nobody
Organization: Not very organized

bjmccall@cco.caltech.edu (Benjamin John McCall) writes:

>rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>>> lindy@olsen.ch (Lindy Foster) writes:
>>>I found Maya Angelou's inaugural poem both moving and beautiful.  Does
>>>anyone know where I can get a copy of the text?  Thanks,

>For the general good:

Where is this from?  This isn't the exact wording the Angelou used.

...
>	
>	The River sang and sings on. There is a true yearning to respond to
>the singing River and the wise Rock. So say the Asian, the Hispanic, the
>Jew, the preacher. They all hear the speaking of the Tree. They hear the
>first and last of every Tree speak to humankind today:
>
Angelou recited many other groups

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
What I write does not necessarily represent the view of my employer.
From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Date: 25 Jan 1993 13:54:19 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

>In article <leo.727693316@draconis>, leo@cp.tn.tudelft.nl (Leo Breebaart):  
>Harlan mentions working on a major Hollywood movie screenplay, but he is
>so embarrassed about what eventually became of it that he doesn't even
>want to tell us the name of that movie. But of course I'm just  
>dying to know which movie he's talking about. Does anybody know?

I think he was talking about that "classic," The Oscar.  It was
a glitzy movie from the early '60s, and I think it starred someone like
Stephen Boyd.  I've never seen it, but the commercials
for it made it look really bad.

** lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Internet) Laurie.Mann (GEnie) **
******      And now for something completely different...     ******
From: jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Censorship
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:44:25 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>> : Doug Quarnstrom writes
>> : >I am curious.  When was the last time the US banned a book?
>> : >
>> : >Is there any literature out there that discusses the history
>> : >of censorship in the US, particularly within the last 50 years or so?
>> :

The American Library Association has put out a major compendium of banned and
censored books (can't think of the title offhand-- ask YOUR librarian, 'cos
our catalog is down).
-- 
Jennifer Heise                           Net: jahb@lehigh.edu
Reference Dept.,                         Phone: (215) 758-3072
Fairchild-Martindale Libraries #8A,  Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015
My opinions are my own. No one else would HAVE them anyway.

"The toad beneath the harrow knows Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road Preaches contentment to that toad."  Kipling
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Presque Poetry
From: demers@ug.eds.com (Diane DeMers Chen)
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:36:23 PDT
Reply-To: demers@ug.eds.com (Diane DeMers Chen)
Distribution: world
Organization: EDS Unigraphics, Cypress CA


In article <1993Jan16.022740.23851@StarConn.com>, dont@StarConn.com (Don Tuite) writes:
|>Subject: Presque Poetry
|>From: dont@StarConn.com (Don Tuite)
|>Organization: Starnet-Public Access UNIX--Los Altos, CA  415-949-3133
|>
|>RED PETE THE POETASTER
|>
|>A line editor known as vi
|>Indented my prose on the sly.
|>When I hit double-Z, my fate was to be
|>An RAB poet, oh fie!

People have told me that "vi" stands for "visual", but I've always
believed it *really* stands for "vicious". :-)

|>
|>The response to my monograph showed
|>how to make my net mailbox explode.
|>Take any old text, run vi on it next
|>And indent it like structured C code.
|>
|>Twenty netters pressed "R" or "F" keys
|>A terrific response; I'd be pleased,
|>But each turned up his nose at my artfully wrought prose
|>And referenced my apologies.
|>
|>Don Tuite
|>
|>


Loved the poem, (and the original).

diane
--
Diane DeMers Chen - demers@ug.eds.com - (714) 952-6571 EDS Unigraphics 
   snail-mail: 10824 Hope Street, Mail Stop 2S-137, Cypress, CA 90630
   *** generic disclaimer ***

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr)
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Angelou
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:26:41 GMT
Summary: help here?

In article <1jmvhtINNoft@morrow.stanford.edu>, francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
> Benjamin John McCall quotes the Inaugural Poem:
> 
> 	... the mastadon, the dinosaur 
> 	who left dry tokens of their sojourn 
> 	here on our planet floor ...
> 
> William Sapphire, of the New York Times, remarked that this conjured 
> up for him an image that he was not certain Angelou had intended. On 
> a related matter, did anyone else notice how often the Radio and TV 
> Johnnies granted Maya Italian citizenship? Maya Angelo: a cross-town 
> rival to Mama Celeste, perhaps.
> 
> 						RABworm
> 

I couldn't find anything by William Safire to this effect in today's
NYT. ( He did have a column devoted to Clinton's speech ( he gave it
a B+. )) Did this appear somewhere else? ... or am I just missing
it ?  Any help ?

Lew Mammel, Jr.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.math
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Remedial Math
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:40:38 GMT


hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:


> It may have been the first time they actually saw mathematics, as distinct 
> from computation.  It was probably a selective school; most of the remedial
> classes are composed of those who do not care to learn math (or anything 
> else); they just want to get the requirements out of the way and get a 
> degree.  These are the ones who disgrace our degrees.

I see that this thread has drifted from rec.arts.books to sci.math,
and assume that Herman Rubin did not see the early articles in the
thread which refute his views.  I suspect that Mr. Rubin has not taught
very many remedial courses.  

As a graduate student, I taught several, in both the day school and 
the evening school at The University of Minnesota (a very good school, 
but not in the least selective).  While there were some students who 
were as Mr. Rubin describes, the majority of them were either older 
students who had been away from math for years, and were eager to 
learn, or freshmen who took little math in high school, but were a 
little afraid -- also eager to learn.  Most of these students seemed 
very intelligent in other areas.  On the whole, I found the attitudes 
of these students to be better than those of my Calculus students.

I would like to suggest to Mr. Rubin that he volunteer to teach such
a course, but that he go into it with his mind open.  Perhaps after
that experience he will realize that it is the graduates who disparage
those who are not yet at our level who are the real disgraces to our
degrees.

Mark


Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26403 sci.math:18791
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean P. Engelson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.math
Subject: Re: Remedial Math
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:34:02 -0500
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Distribution: world
Reply-To: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: fridge.ai.cs.yale.edu


In article <1k6o9cINNt5m@lynx.unm.edu>, rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
|> > jweiss@paintbrush.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeffrey Weiss) writes:
|> >
|> >If one is trying to get the students to create mathematics, then they
|> >will go through the same process of refinement that a researcher does.
|> >I know I don't always get things right on the first try and I don't
|> >expect the students to.
|> >
|> 
|> 	On this subject, I remember reading a fun skinny book
|> 	(for a class on Hegel, no less) by Imre Lakatos, called
|> 	_Proofs and Refutations_, written in dialogue format.
|> 	For the curious but not *that* curious, it is summarized
|> 	in Davis & Hersh.

Don't read the summary, read the book!  It is one of the ten most
important books written this century.  Lakatos' conclusions should
properly be construed broadly; he does not speak of geometry, or even
of mathematics, but rather of all human knowledge and inquiry.  This
is a book to be read and reread; each time you will learn something
new.
	-Sean-
-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520			
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:25986 alt.sex:42821
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Foucault, Faggotry, Fun Times to Come...
Date: 20 Jan 93 21:38:01 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <C0xDz1.6AL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, StarOwl@uiuc.edu (Michael D. Adams) writes:
> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #What are you talking about?  I live in a society where homosexuality is
# #not only legal, but strongly encouraged by the news and entertainment
# #media, where a violent attack on a homosexual is regarded as a serious
# #crime, while the same attack on the same man because of his wallet is
# #regarded as an unserious crime.  I don't know where this sociey is
# #that you are describing, but it doesn't appear to be anywhere I've
# #ever lived.
# 
# Clayton?  Have you considered getting treatment for that case of paranoia?
# 
# Yes, homosexuals are sometimes glamorized or tabloidized in the news and
# entertainment media, but I wouldn't say that homosexuality is "encouraged."

Perhaps you need to move to San Francisco, and watch local television
for a while.

# Homosexuality is not yet legal in all states of the union.  For example,
# anything other than sex between a man and a woman in the missionary 
# position is illegal in Tennessee.

It's not only legal here, but the statutes about sex with minors
are written in a way that benefits homosexual molesters more than
heterosexual molesters.

# In many regions of the U.S. hate crimes against homosexuals or minorities
# are not as actively prosecuted as crimes against heterosexual people of
# European descent.

An assault against a homosexual is a front page news story out here.
An equivalent assault against anyone else isn't even in the paper,
except perhaps in the "Police Calls" section.  You see, the assault
against a homosexual is a "hate crime" while against someone for
other motives, is simply uninteresting to our newspapers.

# Just where *do* you live, Clayton?  In your own never-never land?
# 
# Michael D. Adams	      | Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not

Yes, I live in never-never land.  It's called California.  Alas, I 
share it with 30,000,000 others, many of whom are trying to leave it 
as well.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Gary Link)
Subject: Re: Looking for out-of-print O.S.Card/H.Ellison
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:44:07 GMT


OK, Stewart can have first shot.  

Geez, what a whiner.

-Susanna
I already have _Web of the City_, so there, Stewart.

Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26165 sci.math:18705
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gara@cs.toronto.edu (Gara Pruesse)
Subject: Re: Vanity Fair, or the long sojourn
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:37:52 GMT

In article <106509@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>
>Last night I finally finished the last of 950-odd pages of Vanity Fair, and 
Auth: Thackery  (for the sake of completeness - see my previous post)
>
>Has anyone else waded through this or any other endless book, and wondered
>why?
>

Well, yes.  It's too long, the moral messages miss the mark (with me),
and Amelia is tedious.  

But there were good bits, although I can't recall any now, and
I do love novels from that era.  I like the Brontes, I like
Jane Austen, and I like Dickens.   Don't quite know what it is
that appeals to me - the place, the time, their use of language,
maybe.  

Anybody have any other recommendations from this era?



Current reading:
Woolf,  The common reader  - just starting it
Dumas,  The three musketeers - just started, am hooked


-gara

pleading temporary inanity
From: nichael@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Relative clauses (was: Re: About Truth...)
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:24:45 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@bbn.com
Organization: BBN, Interzone Office
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: hayward@biblio.ucs.sfu.ca's message of 21 Jan 93 21:24:45 GMT

hayward@biblio.ucs.sfu.ca (Michael Hayward) writes:
   >orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke) writes:
   > >	I heard that this guy was Saul Kripke.  Can anyone confirm
   > >or refute?
   I forwarded the linguistics two stories ("Yeah, yeah" and "Fuck you") to a  
   linguist friend of mine. His reply follows:

   ===================================================================

   that first story is not apochryphal; it actually happened, [...]
     ... I do like the ["fuck you"] story a lot. There's more going on
   there than meets the eye: [...]
   [entertaining discourse on the syntax of "fuck you" deleted]

There is an additional (hidden) nuance in the story (and to further
play the "did he say really it?" game):  When I was told the "fuck you"
story, it involved a specific Big Name Computer Expert.  The inside
joke being that BGCE was someone who has a reputation for a style of
presentation which might be expected to elicit such a response in and
of itself.

(These are, I imagine, sufficient clues; in any event it is probably
wise to say no more.  ;)

N
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Back to Homeschool (was: Style vs substance)
Date: 21 Jan 93 00:35:11 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1jh7t6$3di@agate.berkeley.edu>, spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
> Mike Morris echos back an attempted version of my philosophy:
# # The individual is deemed too stupid to own guns, too stupid
# # to save up money for his own retirement, too stupid to get
# # his children the best education he can... Better to trust
# # government for these things?
# 
# I see a BIG distinction between the first two of these --
# owning a gun, and saving for retirement; and the third,
# educating children: the former involves what an individual
# does with himself; the latter involves what one individual
# (parent) does to another individual (child).
# 
# You homeschoolers speak of your children as though they
# are some sort of extension of yourselves, rather than
# entities of their own.
# 
# Why does society in general have less of an interest
# in a child's education than you do?   Don't we
# all have to live with the results?
# 
# Why do you feel you have priority?
# 
# Steve

Because the parent has the most direct interest in the well-being
of the child.  Yes, there are parents out there who don't care, or
worse, are positively malicious, but they are the exception.  Most
parents, even if they aren't terribly competent at parenting, are
concerned for the well-being of their children.  The reasons are
bonds of emotion, pride in what one has produced, and probably
of least importance today, "Who will take care of me when I am
old and sick?"

By comparison, the government's interest in the well-being of a child
is: "What sort of soldier will he be?"  (Hence, the establishment
of the child nutrition supplement program in Great Britain after
the Boer War disaster showed how poorly nourished many poor
children were.)

Secondly, while parents do frequently make mistakes, and some
parents screw up royally, the odds of ALL parents screwing up
as badly as the government frequently does, are small.  It is
diversity (a liberal's greatest enemy) vs. monopoly.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Back to Homeschool (was: Style vs substance)
Date: 20 Jan 93 22:38:06 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1jft66INNila@aludra.usc.edu>, rhogan@aludra.usc.edu (Ron Hogan) writes:
> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
> >Steve responds:
# #  No, parents do *not* have priority.  They have great latitude
# #  in how they determine what happens to children in their
# #  custody, but they or any other form of legal
# #  guardian is an agent of the state, who has ultimate responsibility.
# 
# #For what it is worth, Steve, there is nothing more likely to
# #get my juices flowing than the opinion you have just
# #expressed. I am not an agent of the state for my children,
# #I am their father, and their mother and I are responsible for
# #their moral, their intellectual, and their physical education
# 
# Furthermore, there's this intriguing little concept that's been
# bandied about a few radical circles called 'civil disobedience'
# and if, God forbid, the state ever did have the kind of power that
# Steve has outlined in his statement, I believe that homeschooling
# would qualify as an example of that concept.
# 
# Ron Hogan

Mr. Pope, and his fellow liberals, are the reason that the Second
Amendment exists -- to keep the government scared.

Mr. Pope could start teaching at Sonoma State University tomorrow,
and no one would notice the difference.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Distribution: world
Organization:  One of these days for sure
X-News: HERMES MMAIL 1.10 Rev. Dec 15 1992
Subject: Re: New ideas on SF -or- Confessions of an pulp reader
Keywords: Like flys to wanton schoolboys...
	<H.eg.dsUkwfh3d1o@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca>
	<19JAN199316174190@rigel.tamu.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:50:28 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In <19JAN199316174190@rigel.tamu.edu> spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
	writes:

>I'm not going to head in the direction of Maxwell by trying to define science
>fiction here--that's a whole other can of worms.

	But you're already defining science fiction in this thread, by
attempting to define the books you like as "not science fiction".

>   Would you consider _The Hitchhiker's
>Guide to the Galaxy_ (and its sequels) to be science fiction stories?  (If
>the answer here is `yes' this may be a lost cause.)

	Well, I could say the same thing about you're definiton of the Conan
movies as science fiction, as you did when refering to to them in
another post. 

>...  On the other hand, it may well be speculative
>fiction (albeit VERY BAD speculative fiction) because, while it contains
>no science, it does contain some speculation and certainly a great deal
>of fiction.

	By going to the definition of speculative fiction, which despite
Ellison and others attempts in the 70's has not caught on terribly well
in libraries or bookstores, then your arguments about such books as
Gravity's Rainbow seem to be invalidated. 
	So far you have argued for all sides of the issue, but the part of
your argument my post addressed is your seeming insistance on defining
only a articular sub-genre of what is generally consider as science
fiction to be science fiction. If the discussion becomes hopeless for
you because I say I would put the HGTTG series in the box I personally
consider science fiction, it is only because you want the discussion to
be centered around only your definition of science fiction, and any time
someone brings up a counter example, you will just define it as
!science fiction. This moving the goal posts technique of discussion
really limits what can be discussed.
-- 
		 John Henders
		 Vancouver,BC
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26000 rec.arts.sf.written:18212
From: c60b-2hz@e260-3g.berkeley.edu (Nathaniel Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OZ books?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 07:27:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: e260-3g.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan21.133951.1@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (M. Otto, "Virtual Prisoner of the VAX") writes:
>Did Baum ever write about The Land of An?  (Think about it ;)

No, but my cousin Lyman F. Strauch wrote about The Land of Lb.  (His manuscript
was rejected due to unpronounceability.)
-Nathaniel
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books