From: BURAK@UCSVAX.UCS.UMASS.EDU (BURAK CERRAHOGLU)
Subject: re: continuation on Cyprus
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS - AMHERST
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:39:08 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <199212190522.AA18077@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com writes:

> (Sorry this is long again but Sophia Yasemin is still asleep :-))
> > >Ok, Okan, tell me just ONE thing here. You keep writing about ENOSIS
> > >and the such, and hell, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
> > >believe you, that, indeed, the GC's wanted ENOSIS more than anything
> > >else...
> > 
> >    You don't have to give me the benefit of doubt for that. ENOSIS (union
> > of Cyprus with Greece) was and is still a live fact. If you are ignorant
> > enough to see the fact that significant Greek Cypriot majority wants union
> > with 'mother' Greece, then hell, plug your ears too.
> 
> What is the fact? Sampson may have been an idiot or a pawn, just like many
> people who start wars. Whoever started the war against Turkey in 1922,
> the Japanese in WW2, Saddam, etc were all in the same group. Does it mean
> that they represent the will of the people?
> 
> I understand your reason to be concerned. But remember, just like the
> Gray Wolf guy in Turkiye does not represent the WHOLE of Turkiye, Sampson's
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|| Excuse-me for interrupting but I would like to make a point right here..
|| First of all despite of all the angry discussions and feelings, I see only
|| one solution to our problems: WE HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE PEACEFULLY SIDE BY
|| SIDE. I know it may be hard for some people and definitely it will take some
|| time... but eventually we have to achieve this! I have quite a few greek
|| friends {both form Greece&Cyprus} and we seem to get along very well... Now
|| just do me a favor; even though you do not like him {this "you" as you well
|| noticed, can be a Greek or a Turk ((but again he still represents the vast
|| majortiy))} his name is ATATURK, (meaning FATHER OF TURKS). Since I do not
|| write any Greek name incorrect deliberately, I would expect the same kind of
|| respect from you too..
|| 
|| My sincere regards,
  ********************************* 
||*AFS----Another Friend Somewhere*
  *********************************
> supporters probably did not represent the WHOLE of Greek Cypriots. 
> 
> You assume that people always agree with their leaders. That's a big
> assumption, and most likely, an incorrect one. Or, reversed, that the
> leaders, elected or otherwise, represent the people. 
> 
> > >So, tell me, Okan, why in the world would they want Enosis? To get
> > >stuck with the Greek Bureaucracy, taxes, laws, etc?
> > 
> >     Does 'Megalo Idea' ring a bell for you, Spiro?
> 
> Any Greek Cypriot thinking that Cyprus could get away with it would
> belong in the same shit-for-brains pot with Saddam's advisors who thought
> they'd win the Gulf War. 
> 
> You keep speaking about ENOSIS. How'bout the TRNC's desire to unite
> with Turkiye. Remember my (yet to be answered) post suggesting ways TRNC
> could be better recognized by the world ?  (i.e. if it started behaving
> like a real nation as opposed to a protectorate?). 
> 
> Even if you're Turkish Cypriot (or Turkish) you got to start thinking
> RATIONALLY. As a scientist/engineer, you should always look for a
> reason behind peoples' actions. I presented evidence stating that 
> from my experience Greek Cypriots seemed to have it a lot better than
> Greeks, and that it would not do them any good to be united with Greece.
> You respond with the canned response of ENOSIS, MEGALI IDEA, and the
> such. Well, Sorry, Okan, I can't accept it. I just CAN't. 
> 
> At some point in life you have to stop believing what you're fed. 
> If I were told for 18 years that the guys on the other end are my
> enemies, etc. I would not have feelings much different than yours.
> But THINK for a moment. 
> 
> Imagine the situation now. Even with 80,000 settlers, I'd venture to
> say that the standard of living in TRNC is quite superior to the one
> in Turkiye. (Think of all the Turkocypriots living in homes donated
> by Greek Cypriots, working donated land, ...). Would they want to
> be joined with Turkiye? 
> 
> Emotionally, maybe. Practically, financially, the answer is HELL NO,
> otherwise it'd have happened by now. Turkiye has demonstrated it is
> not concerned with UN resolutions (at least where it suits her). 
> 
> As a side note, if anyone has figures for standard of living in 1974
> and now, i'd appreciate it. Simple things, not Arxid-isms.
> 
> And look at it a bit more from the Greek side. To me, if I were male
> from 18 to 50, any effort towards ENOSIS would result in me being
> drafted to the front line, as only 3 year olds would expect that armed
> conflict would NOT be an immediate result. Why would I want to put my
> head in the oven? For who? Someone who speaks a language similar to mine
> and  who I get to see once a year when making a duty free trip? Culture
> links are OK till you realize it's YOUR head. To use another Arxid-ism
> (Arxidia?) I may be 'palik' but I'm not stupid.
> 
> > >The ones I met had a very distinct Cypriot identity. I had a couple
> > >of roommates from Cyprus for a while, and they were all quite a bit
> > >serious about studying (their grades reflected that). The Turkish
> > >Cypriots we met at school were also that (shit their math was good!)
> > >and we all seemed to get along quite well...
> > 
> >     You are contradicting yourself Spiro. There has never been a single
> > distinct Cypriot nation in the history of earth, Spiro. Yes, the people
> > who live in Cyprus are called Cypriots, just like the ones in Macedonia
> > are Macedonians, but as far as the nations are concerned, there are two
> > distinct, totally different and well identified nations in Cyprus: 
> 
> True. The Turkish Cypriots I met are not like Greek Cypriots, and vice
> versa. I would venture to say that if either side knew what was coming,
> they'd probably partition the island equitably and get it over with (which
> of course is what TRNC wanted in the first place, TAKSIM). 
> 
> What I point out here is that the Greek Cypriots I met had no illusions, 
> dreams of enosis, or megali idea in their (well planted) heads. They were
> Greek Cypriots, not Greeks. 
> 
> > Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots. I hope you don't need to see any
> > proof to realize that Cyprus has two independent sides, administrations,
> > peoples, cultures, and everything else. You just can't make it one by
> > forcibly saying it over and over. Just open your Webster's Dictionary, look
> > under N/n and find 'nation'. You will hopefully read the following:
> 
> The administration setup contained enough loopholes, giveaways, and quotas
> to be rendered useless. You write about fair treatment. The 17% minority
> ended up getting 30% or more of government jobs, etc. Look at it OBJECTIVELY
> for a moment in a country like the US, and see how far you'll go.
> 
> You would not doubt that African Americans were put at great
> disadvantage and it took great civil rights efforts to give them equal
> rights.  Some believe quotas are the only way to correct the injustices
> of the past. Yet the data available suggests that quota gives the
> feeling of reverse discrimination to many non-minorities, hence
> cultivating conflict even more. 
> 
> If you believe various quota figures set in the US are excessive, how about
> quota bills that cast in stone that government jobs are assigned from
> 30 to 50% to a 17% minority? How about veto power that was used to render
> the entire government (for what it was worth) useless?
> 
> What would happen if, during the LA riots, rioters occupied Bel Air,
> killed/expelled the rightful owners (claiming injustice all along) and
> then took over their businesses, houses, cars, and property, never
> allowing any kind of legal process for the rightful owners to either
> receive their property back or receive fair market compensation?
> 
> > Now I ask you. Where is the politically organized 'Cypriot' nation? Where is
> > the SINGLE community of people which is composed of Turkish Cypriot and Greek
> > Cypriot nationalities possesing a 'more or less defined territory and
> > government' 
> 
> Why did all sides agree to it when Cyprus become independent? Many of the
> same people who agreed to it are still around today. How did the people
> get along under the various occupiers of the island for the last couple
> of thousand years?
> 
> > Need I go on? You don't need to be at 'delco' to understand
> > some common sense and see the facts, Spiro. 
> 
> Delco makes automotive electronics, not political scientists. Cheap
> shot, but since it's the only one of your message I'll let it pass.
> I *did* appreciate the rest of your message(s) by the way.
> 
> > Plus, your being from Greece
> > puts you at some significant disadvantage in understanding Cyprus issues.
> 
> Yes and No. I've demonstrated willingness to listen, be objective, rational,
> and free of any prejudice. I have no financial, emotional, or otherwise
> links with Cyprus or Turkiye. I have no problem admitting mistakes of the
> Greek side. I have no problem listening to solutions. I might have been
> exposed to a bit more information had my family home been donated to some
> settler, or if my brother was missing, but that would also increase my
> emotions. 
> 
> You assume that because I'm from Greece, every other word I say is Enosis
> and every third and fourth is Megali Idea. Well, not so, Okan. I've
> demonstrated willingness to look for a solution that is fair and equitable.
> The TRNC side has only demonstrated that it can pump up its people (i.e.
> Besime Erin) with booklets, leaflets, and 80% majorities for 20 years.
> 
> I have written enough material to piss off Greek Cypriots, though most
> are nice enough and have not flamed me for it. How far away have you
> strayed from the 80% majority line?
> 
> I can appreciate the fact that Cyprus is not Lebanon although it came 
> (and still is) very close to being that. Obviously the Turkish Cypriot
> side has had it good enough so they don't want to change the status quo.
> But get down and see all this from people's side of view. Much of the
> 40% of land occupied by the settlers/turkish army did belong to someone
> else... The roof under which many of you are sleeping was paid for by
> someone else. You receive lots of money from Turkiye to sustain TRNC's
> nonexisting economy. 
> 
> The issue, Okan, is not ENOSIS or TAKSIM or any other bullshit like
> this; the issue not simply two communities which for better or worse
> are separated; the issue is that one community simply uses pretenses
> to ask a 'helpful' neighbor to invade/intervene (to use yet another
> Arxid-ism) and help carry the loot. If there is one picture that
> the 'fascist' TV showed us from the Turkish invasion that has
> stayed in my mind since 1974, is a crew of settlers pulling out
> an ELEVATOR from a downtown building. They weren't repairing it...
> 
> Turks (and Greeks, and many other nations) have shown that hard work
> pays off. One works the land, a small tourist shop, a taverna, or
> as a minor bureaucrat, and, G*d Willing, buys a little house and lives
> happily ever after. Turkish Cypriots, under the pretense of oppression,
> and under the wings of the 'motherland', preferred wholesale armed
> robbery to 'rectify past injustices'. 
> 
> Sure, if I had 'inherited' someone else's house/land/business, had a
> couple of settlers for dirt cheap wages to help me run it, and had
> to make sure I get to stay that way, I'd vote Denktash till his bones
> disintegrate. (I'd vote for Besime after that). And I would do nothing
> to change the status quo. Just like you seem bent on doing.
> 
> It all depends on whether you enjoy being freeloading whiners or a people
> willing to stand up on their own two feet (sans the Turkish training wheels).
> 
> The choice is yours.
> 
> Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek