From: fein@acsu.buffalo.edu (L. Fein)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: UManitoba game applicants: READ!!!
Date: 5 Oct 92 03:51:52 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <1992Oct5.003204.10677@ccu.umanitoba.ca> roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr) writes:
>
>In <BvL2tA.41x@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> cashman@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Geoff Cashman) writes:
>
>>Sigh,
>
>>It is fairly obvious to me that this is quickly degrading into a flame
>>war despite my attempts otherwise. 
>
>Isn't "degrading" an adjective?  :)  Anyway, what's happening is we're
>expressing legitimate differences of opinion.  Neither he nor I are being
>insulting (at least I hope I haven't been).  I certainly have taken nothing
>Mr. Cashman has said as degrading. :)
>

	Well, not per se..
>>Again, for future or current deities:
>
>>1) It is highly unwise to deity at another site where you do not have
>>   direct full time access to the directory holding the server and it's
>>   files.  Assistant deity?  Sure.  Primary deity?  Forget it.
>
>So far I haven't addressed this point.  No doubt Mr. Cashman would have
>to enter into a very technical explanation - I'm satisfied to take his
>word for it.

	Here is your highly detailed and technical explanation... It's
impossible to be the primary deity and NOT have access to the binaries.
What if the game dies? What if it needs to be recompiled?

Have you ever set up an Empire game? No? Good luck. How's the Deity supposed
to run "file"? "ore"? "land"? And the assistant deity is supposed to
do this? Hah! Then the assistant deity is the primary deity. 


>
>>2) NOT informing sys admins, even if you think they won't approve, is
>>   the wrong way of going about things.  NOT informing them can create
>>   an "us vs. them" scenario, much as many MUDs have had to face.
>
>True; if the admins are so insecure about the tiniest oversight in a user
>not bowing to their highness.  Such action would be universally unreasonable
>on sites which have no expressed rules about running games like Empire.  At
>U of Manitoba - there are no expressed rules.  So, just like it's okay to
>walk your dog after 6 p.m. if there's no law against it, it's okay to put
>up a game like Empire at your site unless there's some rule against it.
>(Even if there is, like I said, sites where there are such rules somtimes
>may take little or no interest in it - provided it does not interfere sub-
>stantially with system function.)

	Your opinion. This game will be stopped by your admins, if they are
as bad as you wantus to believe they are.. Count on it. It is very obvious that
you have no concept of system administration. No offense. But the guy with
access to "root" is god, as far as that machine is concerned. There's precious
little that root can't do. Your game WILL go down. And you *will* piss off
99.9% of the players in your game.

>
>>   NOT
>>   informing them can, and will in many circumstances, result in the game
>>   being shut down prematurely.  NOT informing the sys admins will 
>>   not make any sys admin's heart warmer for a deity or player. 
>
>Forgive me, but I hardly see the average system administrator as a poor,
>loneley man who's iron tyranny over his silicon domain can be softened with
>a few kind words.  He doesn't care!  Why should he?  He's got better things
>to worry about than a few harmless gamers taking a brief pause from
>racking thier brains the rest of the day.  It won't hurt anyone
>if you put Empire up...it's been suggested (by other users) that Empire takes
>up as little as .1 - .5% of total CPU resources.  Go ahead!  Put it up!
>There's doezens of players screaming for dieities to give them a chance to
>play!
>

	Again, *I* was the one that came up with the .1% figure. That figure
was based on my PERSONAL observation.. Also note that on different machines,
that figure would be different. If I ran Empire (under BSD or some other flavor
of Unix) on my 80486sx, when that sucker updated, it would chew about (guess)
90% of the CPU. On a Cray 2, it'd probably just burp and the update would be 
done :-)

>>Nothing that has been said in this thread has convinced me otherwise.
>
>Probably because I'm not particularly convincing, and/or I'm long-winded.
>(Or because I'm dead wrong and just can't see it.)
>

	Experience is the best teacher. You are wrong not to tell your
admins. You're pretty long winded too :-)

>>I'm NOT being bullheaded.  As many players here can attest to, I've been
>>around the block, and had my share of experiences both good and bad. 
>
>No one suggested otherwise.  I don't consider it his failing for not seeing
>my "reasoning" - there are three very plausible alternatives mentioned above.
>
>>I can count game after game where the deities had permission of the
>>sys admins, or were the sys admins themselves.  Unfortunately, I can 
>>remember many games where such was not the case, and games that
>>vanished without notice. 
>
>Without hard statistics - I'm still tempted to argue "go for it" and see
>what happens.  After all it's just a game.
>

	Remember this when I tell you "I told you so" and you've got a mailbox
full of hate mail from your players :)


>>It must be remembered, that at the very large majority of educational
>>institutions, computing access is a priviledge *NOT* a right.
>

>I'm afraid he's right here.  Although why this flawed perception on
>the part of computer services departments worldwide persists is beyond me.
>In my country, Canada, the state heavily subsidizes universities - or at
>least did before Brian Mulroney became our dreaded Prime Minister.  The
>line a student gets fed when (s)he suggests an obligation on the part of
>the university is "P-ha!  You didn't pay for it!  Who are you to complain?"
>Okay, there's a point to this (an increasingly weak point given our tuition
>has gone up 28% in the last two years) - a point that could be debated further.


	For the same part that a Driver's License is a privelege. If you can't
handle the responsiblitu, you don't get the privilege. And if the state subsi-
dizes your university, then THEY say what goes... and NOT you

>But in the United States of America - there is no point; you pay your tuition
>and you get services for it.  If you pay the same tuition as a fourth-year
>Computer Science major and are a student of Law, you should get the same
>privelages (provided monies from your tuition go to support both faculty's
>services equally).  As it happens, here at the U of M, it is tuition money -
>not faculty fees (and certainly not Student Union dues) that pay for
>the Computer Services department.  I should have as much right to access to
>"computer services" as the computer science student.
>

	And you pay tuition for nothing? How do you know that your tuition
pays for the Computer Services department? You have the budget? Or 
do you just "know"? 

>Another way of putting it; I don't have a *right* to your car.  But if I
>give you money in exchange for renting, don't I have a right to use it?
>

	My car's not for rent :) And if you rent a car, you have a right 
to use it, in a lawful and responsible manner. And any damage you cause
is YOUR responsibility.

>
>>In 
>>conjunction with this, it must be noted that Empire has NOTHING
>>to do with academics.
>
>Neither does the campus bar, the campus video arcade, the campus billiard
>room - all of which use student money just like the unix mainframe at this
>university.  Computer Services has, however, not made it a policy to outlaw
>entertainment on campus - nor should it.  Besides, I'll wager you that
>I'd learn a good deal more about computers generally setting up an Empire
>client than I will playing Champion Edition Street Fighter.
>

	And all of which provide revenue to the University. And I doubt that
you'll learn much simply setting up Empire. Make some mods to the code,
then you'll be learning something. Simply changing a few variables won't
teach you diddly. I can set up a game in under an hour, for blitZ play..
doesn't mean I know anything about Unix...

>>Please please please, future Empire deities, don't let Empire become
>>a sys admin's worst nightmare....get permission.
>
>Don't look for problems.  Set it up and deal with the problem's when they
>come (if they come).

	If you're not looking for trouble, then you're asking for it.
You *will* find it. If your University is that bad, then I hope you've got
the fine money ready. Look what happened with the bloodbath game at
that NASA site.. the game crashed the computer (or so they say)
and the FBI was going to investigate. (again, so they say) You want the 
RCMP sniffing at your door? :-)


>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>R. Ross Holder, Jr.  INTERNET: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca  (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
>       Department of Philosophy                The University of Manitoba

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


LOF. 
Larry