HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning A-bolt
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:05 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <9208172324.AA14984@dvorak.amd.com> mbehrens@aunext3.amd.com (mikael behrens x54752) writes:
#I'm going to be buying a hunting rifle in the near future and after doing some  
#preliminary research, I like the stainless steel Browning A-bolt alot.  The  
#reduced bolt rotation, glass-bedded free-floating barrel, and detatchable mag  
#are some of the features that attract me to it.  As far as calibre, I'm trying  
#to decide between .308, 30'06, and .270.
#
#I'd appreciate any general information and opinions of this gun.  How's the  
#accuracy?  Does the A-bolt have any horrible flaws that aren't immediately  
#obvious (BESIDES being made in Japan)?

The only major flaw with the Browning A-bolt (IMHO) is that the it
has the typical lawyer trigger found on all standard factory rifles
of any make.  Prepare to use a come-along to pull the 6+ pound trigger.
Unlike the Remington (best) or Winchester (pretty good) offerings,
the Browning trigger adjustment is internal only, no screws to help
with the pull weight, sear engagement, or overtravel.  My gunsmith
informs me that internal trigger work voids the Browning warranty;
I don't know the official Browning position on this.  I've never
seen a good aftermarket trigger (Jewell, Shilen, Timney, or Canjar)
for the A-bolt; if I did it might change my mind.  I just bought
my dad a new Remington 700 stainless steel in .270 for $439 (about
$100 cheaper than the Browning).  For less than $20 you can glass
bed it yourself, although the stock material on this rifle doesn't
let the bedding adhere as well as it might.  Like all Rem 700s, the
trigger is externally adjustable down to a reasonable (for hunting)
2-3 pounds.  Winchester is supposed to have stainless rifles available,
but none have appeared in the Seattle area.  Winchester 70s have
much better feeding from the magazine than Rem 700s, if that's
important to you.  The detachable magazine on the Browning is a
nice feature, and can't be duplicated easily on the stainless
Rem because it has a blind magazine.

#Mikael
#

Toby Bradshaw
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:38:52 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Aug16.024831.18320@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> jalden@coos.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:

}... in which states need
}I worry about local attitudes and just bury the damn things, however in
}the right I may be according to statute?

California, for one.  Make sure they're unloaded and in locked containers.
Do not carry guns or ammunition in the glove compartment or human occupied
part of the vehicle.  Trunk of the car may be enough for long guns, but
it's iffy.  Hand guns should be in a locked box in the trunk.  Remember
that loaded magazine == loaded gun (in fact, live ammunition touching any
part of a gun, including the magazine, is legally the same as a loaded
gun).  Ammunition should be in separate locked containers.

Different jurisdictions will have different levels of enforcement and
ideas about what's appropriate.  Assume worst case to be as safe as
possible.  There are a _lot_ of jurisdictions (I drive through four just
going to work).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: CERIS.1992Aug19.161711.28763
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9208181451.AA17100@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>, by bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow):
# In article <6!0m!c_.pauly@netcom.com> pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
# #Well, here's what Bill Wilson has to say about dropping the slide on an
# #empty chamber:
# #
# #"Look at the way a .45 Colt is meant to operate.  When you fire the gun, before
# #you can ever get your finger off the trigger, the slide cycles.  The slide   
# #cycles while the trigger is held back; everything is disconnected.  You're
# #still holding the trigger back when the slide slams home.  That's the way the
# #gun is designed to work."
# #
# #Paul Yoshimune
# 
# It has been 20 years since I fired the .45 and I am getting conflicting info.
# A long gun shooter, I was shooting the national match course at the invitation
# of the pistol team.  As I remember it the sequence was like this: insert
# loaded magazine, depress trigger, cycle slide, release trigger, wait for
# firing instructions.  However, I visited at gun store this week looking at
# Colts, Tokarevs.  When I told the salesman/gunsmith about my rememberance, he
# just looked blank and said that that was not the case.  Do I remember wrong?
#

I don't recall anything about putting one's finger on the trigger
when not intending to shoot.  When cycling the slide to load the
first round, I wouldn't think it would matter whether the gun was
cocked or not.  I wasn't trained in the military though.  I would
be concerned about the gun going bang when the slide closed if I
were holding the trigger down, but I guess I _am_ doing that
every time I fire it.... 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: roman@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:00 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

In article <1992Aug20.003747.6896@ecst.csuchico.edu>, dpike@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (DAN PIKE) writes:
# I was talking to a friend the other day here at work who claims he owns a lot
# of guns.  During our conversation he said that .40cal and 10MM are the same
# thing.  I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but I think he's
# wrong.  I know there has to be a differance.  Don't they fire differant rounds? 
# He says you can fire the same round through both.  I don't thinks he's too
# reliable of a source but I just wanted to know what the differances are from
# someone who knows what he/she is talking about.  I know he's not the best
# source because he told me he has an M-16.  Having been in the army I started
# asking him questions about it.  He finally admitted he has a Colt AR-15.  Any
# help that you could give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
# 
# Dan
# **********************************************************
# DAN PIKE, CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, CHICO
# DPIKE@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU

The .40 S&W and the 10mm are the same *bullet* but the casings are much
different from each other.  The .40 S&W case is not actually a shortened
10mm case.  The 10mm cartridge has much thicker walls and it uses a large
pistol primer, whereas the .40 uses a small pistol primer.
 
Like the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum, you can fire a .40 S&W in a 10mm
pistol, but not vice versa.
-- Roman Olynyk
From: haase@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Mark Haase)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Instruction Classes
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:39 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Univ. of Chicago

Dear Users,

Can anyone tell me whether Mas Ayoob's LFI or Clint Smith's International
Training Consultants plan to hold any classes in the Ohio/Indiana/Illinois
area beginning October 1?  I am interested in firearms principles and operation
and would like to register for seminars while on break from the university
(or possibly on weekends).  Thank you.

Chris Haase
Department of Defense Fellow
University of Chicago
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beginner's question about caliber
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:00:44 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <16d0e1INN1ie@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
##... suffixes like LR, ACP, Parabellum, Magnum, Special, etc.  ...
#Generally, they don't mean much more than brand names: Long Rifle, "For War"
#(Latin, Para Bellum), etc. ...

NO NO NO!  (I'm surprised that passed the Moderator.)  These suffixes
are IMPORTANT parts of the full name of the particular cartridge style,
serving to distinguish between styles of nominally the same "caliber"
(bullet/bore diameter) that vary in other dimensions, sometimes radically.
For example, .45 Long Colt is a revolver cartridge while .45ACP is a
semiautomatic pistol cartridge; .22 Hornet rifle ammo will not fit into
a .22LR chamber (fortunately).  In most cases it is UNSAFE to use the
wrong style of ammo in a firearm, even if the caliber happens to match.
(There are a few exceptions, using .38 Special ammo in a .357 Magnum
revolver being the most common.)

Some styles of ammo are so common that most people understand what is
being designated even when the suffix is omitted, e.g. .45 to most of
us would be assumed to mean .45ACP and .22 to mean .22LR, but for
safety's sake you should use the full cartridge name when acquiring
ammo for a gun.

[MODERATOR:  Sorry, Your Humble Moderator has never taken responsibility
(aka liability) for ensuring the correctness of information in posts.  So
he often lets through things he doesn't believe to be true, secure in the
knowledge that this is a ``user supported'' forum.  Other users will come
to the rescue.  YHM only chips in his fair share of kibbitzing just like
other users would, on occasion.]
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm in M1 carb?
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:00 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9208191632.AA10682@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#In article <1992Aug19.030840.11858@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu
#(James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#
##BTW, could M1 Carbines be made in 10mm?  Would there be anything 
##good about it.   I've thought the M1 would be interesting in some other
##caliber, 10mm, .44 Mag, .357, .223, anything.   Would hot 10mm in a rifle
##barrel be preferable to .30 carbine to any of you?  What I've heard
##about .30 carbine is not encouraging: very loud and little velocity
##or stopping power.
#
#The thing which determines an action's suitability for a cartridge is
#its ability to withstand the peak backthrust of the cartridge.  To a 
#first order, the peak backthrust of the cartridge is the area of its
#maximum internal diameter times its peak chamber pressure.  I don't
#recall the peak allowable chamber pressures for the 30 carb and the
#10 mm auto, but for approximation, let's say they're the same.  Then
#the backthrust of the 10 mm will be (.400/.308)^2 = 1.7 times as large
#as the backthrust from the 30 carb.  Based on this, I would say that
#it is not likely that the M1 carb action is suitable for the 10mm.  A
#very similar action is that of the Mini-14.  It handles a cartridge of 
#larger ID and higher pressure than the 30 carb.  It may well be suitable 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you _really_ certain of this?  Does the 10mm really generate
pressures up in the range of rifle pressures.  I don't have books
handy now, but it seems to me that the .30 Queerbean operates
somewhere between 40 and 50 Kpsi.

As I remember, there was a Thompson (pure blowback) built for .30
carbine ammunition, and the bolt weight and cyclic rate of fire
were _similar_ to those of the .45 ACP.  Because of the great difference
in case diameter, but similarity in case-base-area/pressure
product, I believe .30 carbine pressure is _far_ greater than
that of .45 ACP.  I also think it is somewhat higher than 10 mm
pressure, but I'm not dead certain.

#for the 10 mm, aethetics aside.  8-)  If you're enamored of a 10 mm 
#in a carbine, the Marlin camp carbine seems like a natural for such
#a conversion.
#
#John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: CERIS.1992Aug19.170431.29645
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9208181231.AA17760@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU>, by C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob):
# Well, maybe not stupid, but...
# 
# I used to have a T/C Contender with a 14" .44 Magnum barrel and Pachmayr
# grips.  I shot fairly stout handloads, but recoil was relatively light
# because of the grips and barrel length.  Well, one day we were shooting,
# and another guy let me shoot his 4" barrelled .44 Magnum revolver with
# wood grips.  I cupped my right hand under the grip, aimed and pulled
# the trigger.  I felt pain in my right hand, looked and noticed that I
# now had a nice gash in my hand that was shaped like the bottom of
# the grip.
#

That reminds me, the very first thing I did with my 14" .44 was
put my hand under the butt when I fired it.  I have never done
that again, although I recently pinched part of my hand when I
miscalculated the distance a TC with a .223 barrel would recoil. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:41 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <13400020@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
##Using said training, my friend attempted to aim the 1911A1 like an
##M-16, with his eye up to the rear sight.
##My scream of "CEASE FIRE" saved his face/eye.
#
#This one ain't even close to funny.  

Fortunately, the True Purpose(tm) of Stupid Shooter Tricks is not
to amuse, but to instruct in a non-judgemental forum.

If it saves one life*...or just cuts down on a couple of AD's and
ND's, and maybe cuts down on damage to innocent firearms, then
we're ahead a little bit more.  :}

I don't know about anyone else, but *I've* picked up some good
stuff from this thread.

	seh

* If Some Other Bunch can use the phrase, why not us?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[MODERATOR:   Normally, we would try to teach by stressing *positives*
not *negatives*.  But I agree in this case, for some of the things showing
up we are helping explain *why not* do indulge in certain behavior.]
From: C_PUFFER@unhh.unh.edu (Charles   Puffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Underwater shooting???
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:09:41 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire

In <1992Aug20.062257.10386@nntp.hut.fi> r36110m@kaira.hut.fi writes:
# In article <9208191647.AA19096@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP writes:
# #Remember also that (a) water is not lodged in the barrel, just sitting 
# #there (it will move easily) and (b) the pressure outside the gun will be 
# #increased by the water.  
# 
# I was thinking mostly about shotguns and rifles that are quite
# sensitive about the shot charge or bullet weight. 
#	......
# But in emergency, you
# probably like to know that it MAY work.

	Although I have not run test :-). I thinkit should be rememberd that
gasses like air are varry different from liquids like water in that gasses 
commpress even a small amount of water in a barral of a non vented gun (vented
like a revolver) will cause the internal pressure curve to go sky high as the
the bullet trys to rase the level of the entire boddy of water that little bit.
	
	 If you are in need of a weapon under water plan a head or yous you
gun as a blunt object you and your gun will be better off.

 

[_-_-_-_-_]            
 |       |______________     Charles Puffer
 |      /             /  \   C_PUFFER@UNHH.UNH.EDU
 |    /_____________/      \
 |    |            |  |^|  |        Lord Duncan Forbes
 |    |            |  | |  |         Barony of Stonemarche

[MODERATOR:  Ahh, plan ahead.  Good point. I don't think my safe has *any*
spearguns propped up in the back, time for another expedition with my gold
card....]
From: J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: review on glasses
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:50 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes:

[snip]

#For years I've shot with just my regular glasses, fairly heavy safety
#lenses.  But perhaps you've found the same sorts of drawbacks I have
#encountered:  fogging, sliding around when you sweat, not oriented 
#correctly when you're in some shooting positions.  I have the added
#requirement of corrective lenses (with some prismatic effect as well.)

[munch munch]

Not intended as a flippant comment, but after suffering years of wet
lenses when out hawking (can't wipe them dry with only one hand), I've
found that the best glasses are contact lenses. More convenient, don't
fall off, don't get in the way, don't distort, don't cause distracting
reflections, and don't retain those irritating drops of rain. And their
optical performance is *far* better too IMO. They're not suited to
everyone, of course.

--Jonathan

[MODERATOR:  Jonathan, I think they have appeal, but remember you don't
get the benefit of protective glass in front of your eyes.  Also, some
people can't wear contacts, since they need a prismatic effect (i.e.,
the contact must be oriented, which is difficult, though possible, to
do.)  Finally, some shooters will find the smoke and other irritants in
the air to be very difficult to live with when wearing some brands of
contacts.]
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: California gun laws
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:24 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Aug10.214701.28752@smartstar.com>, smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
# Another thing, you have to register the gun and pay the $15 fee if you sell

Minor correction: only the handgun registration is kept.  By law, 
long gun information must be destroyed within 30 days unless the
sale is disallowed.  Since the form sent to the state DOJ and local
police doesn't contain any information about the long gun, this
means that there are no records indicating the number of long guns
a person has bought.

# it to a freind.  All gun sales have to go through a gun dealer now.  I just
# wanted to mention these overly restrictive laws to the rest of the country.
# Pretty soon, buerocrats in your state will try and pass laws like this.
# Let your legislators know if you oppose laws like this.  They may try to
# do it for the whole country some day.

Yup.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
When the government wins the War on Drugs, they are welcome to try their
gun control snake oil.
From: rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: X's on bullets (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:27 GMT
Organization: LIFO

In a previous posting, I write:
]] 
]] MidSouth sells loaded XTP cartridges.  The page layout seems to indicate that
]] they are loaded by Hornady.  I'll try to remember to bring in the catalog
]] tomorrow and get the details right. (as well as prices.  ;^)
]] 
]] Also, in the 158gr .357 bullet, they offer HP-XTP and flat-nose XTP.  The 
]] flat nose has a very small hole in front and the trademark XTP notches.  
]] The HP-XTP sports a large hollowpoint hole in addition to the notches.  Not 
]] quite as intimidating (imho) as the .45/185gr Nosler HPs.  According the 
]] the Hornady data sheet, the HP-XTP is designed to be effective at lower 
]] velocities than the flat-nose.


Frist, MidSouth Shooter's Supply (1-800-272-3000 in US, 1-800-833-6264 in CA,
1-615-475-4783 if you can't call 800) does indeed sell Hornady ammunition.
While the page doesn't say who actually loaded them, they do refer questions
to Hornady Manufacturing, so I'd say it's a safe bet that they're loaded there.

There's a too much pricing to type in completely, but XTPs (Extreme Terminal
Performance, not Extra T. P. as had been mentioned) are available as loaded
cartridges in .25, 9mm, .38, .357M, 10mm, 40S&W, 44M and 45ACP.  All in boxes
of 50.  (they also have non-XTP ammo in .32 and 380)  The prices range from
$6.75 for the .45ACP 185gr JHP-XTP up to $15.33 for the .357M 125gr JHP-XTP.

MidSouth does (of course) also sell XTP projectiles for handloading.  Their 
prices seem to be about what you can get elsewhere.

*** THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT!  I haven't ever bought anything from this 
outfit, and while I'm sure somebody can give their stamp of approval, I have
no idea what sort of service you can expect from MidSouth.  There, I said it.

Also, I had alluded to the different ideal velocities for the .357M 158gr XTPs
(the FP-XTP and the HP-XTP)  For those who care, the HP-XTP (#35750) is 
designed to perform from 700 to 1400 fps, the FP-XTP (#35780) from 1175 to
1800+ fps.  These figures are from a small data sheet which comes in each XTP
bullet box.  From that sheet, "For additional information, contact Hornady ...
(308) 382-1390."


--Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU
Move on, move on.  There's no opinions here.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS v Mini-30 ammo
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:57 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Aug17.162444.14745@hawkmoon.mn.org>, gray@hawkmoon.mn.org (Bill Gray) writes:
# I own an SKS and while talking to a shooting buddy about the Mini-30, he
# said that the bore of the Mini-30 was slightly smaller than the SKS and that
# shooting the cheap surplus ammo through the Mini-30 was a good way to rip
# the throat out of it.  He said you had to use the expensive new factory
# ammo or reload for it, but the military surplus stuff was no good.

   Your buddy knows of what he speaks. The SKS and AK in 7.62X39 usually
 have a groove diameter of .311-.313. The Mini-30 has a true .30 cal
 groove diameter of .308. I havn't seen many tests of using the surplus
 ammo in the Mini-30 but the standard .308 diameter bullets appear to
 work satisfactory in the SKS. I have some 124gr .310 dia bullets which
 I got from Midway and they work fine in the SKS. It would seem that
 the .310 bullets would be a snug fit for the Mini-30. My thoughts are
 if you want something that shoots 7.62X39 get a Chinese gun. :-) Then
 shoot all the cheap ammo you want. If I owned a Mini-30 I'd only feed
 it .308 diameter ammo. 

# 
# Is this true, or was my buddy misinformed?  Can surplus ammo be safely fired
# in Mini-30s?  What about the new AR-15 chambered for 7.62x39?

   I'm not sure about the new AR-15. I'd suspect though that it's gonna
be .308. If your a reloader, definately go with something that has a .308
groove because .308 bullets are very plentiful. If your gonna shoot
cheap, surplus ammo....get the SKS. 



 						John


# 
# Thanks,
# 
# Bill
# PS.  I like the SKS.  Great value for the money, especially if you don't
# mind an ungly stock.
# -- 
# gray@hawkmoon.mn.org
# This site gets a fair news feed, but e-mail is more reliable. . . :-(
# "Veni, vidi, vomiti!"  -- the ghost of Tom Jefferson on reading the Brady Bill


-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH