From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Support for Boy Scouts
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:02:59 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Jul29.192203.22747@unlinfo.unl.edu>, rlosee@unlinfo.unl.edu (Robert Losee) writes:
|> In <1992Jul27.213049.26997@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
|> 
|> [stuff deleted]
|> 
|> >[Scouting should either be obviously sectarian or completely open]
|> 
|> I have a problem with such a limited approach, probably because of my
|> own experience.  I first encountered "jewishness" in our scout pack
|> and later troop, as some members were Jewish, even though the unit
|> was associated with my Lutheran church.  They and their parents were
|> very valued members of the unit.  And it was in looking at the
|> different religious awards in the handbook that I became aware of and
|> began to wonder about the meaning of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and
|> the Missouri Synod Lutheran church (amoung others).  That later lead
|> me to investigate and come to a great appreiciation of many other
|> faiths.
|> 

I agree that I'd rather enroll my children in a non-sectarian
Scout group than in a sectarian one, for precisely the same
reasons you point out here.

You point out that your life was enriched by exposure to
Jewish children and awareness of other religious viewpoints.
You realized that these children were not demons but
human beings who could enrich your experience.  Can't
you extrapolate this one step further?  Perhaps your children's
life can be even further enriched by exposure to atheist
children?  They might come to the same insights with respect
to atheists that you did with respect to Jews and others.
They might learn to appreciate atheists and come to
a greater understanding of the factors that play the
role in their lives that God or Jesus does in yours.

|> I want to be in an organization, and have my sons in an organization,
|> that believes in a God because I want my sons to experience these
|> other faiths respectfully.  My experience is that organizations and
|> governments that also include atheists end up not discussing or
|> including religion at all.  In short the scouts offers the belief in 
|> God but all faiths are respected attitude I want.  Does any other 
|> organization do this for youth (or parents) that is widely available?
|> 

The above reflects a prejudice you have about atheists.
You assume that the atheists will somehow undermine
the religiosity of the religious members.  Why?
That should not happen any more than admitting Jews
undermined the Christianity of the Christian scouts.

To be sure, when Scouts admitted Jews, it was no longer
in good taste to have a prayer saying "in the name
of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost".   And
if Buddhists, Hindus, and Taoists are to be admitted,
you can no longer have prayers referencing God
the way Jews, Christians and Muslims do.  But
each individual scout is still free to implement
reverence or religiosity in his own way --- just
what you want from a pluralistic group.
Religion is not lost --- only diversity is gained.
And exactly the same thing results when you
accept atheists.  

|> >It's much more objectionable when the organization accepts
|> >*almost* everybody except certain groups against which
|> >there are widespread popular prejudices.  If this is
|> >supposed to be an open, non-denominational movement
|> >which teaches outdoor activities, morals, and good
|> >citizenship, if you exclude atheists and gays it is
|> >hard not to make the inference that the BSA accepts
|> >the popular (false) stereotype that atheists and
|> >gays cannot be moral or good citizens.  And in fact,
|> >some posters, such as Mr. Krieger, seem to have stated
|> >this position explicitly here.  My objection is not
|> >the legal one that the BSA should not be allowed
|> >to act on this prejudice, but the moral one that
|> >teaching this prejudice reinforces bigotry and is
|> >detrimental to the overall goal of scouting, which
|> >is promoting good citizenship for a pluralistic
|> >democratic society.
|> 
|> The BSA and I would argue that an important foundation for promoting
|> good citizenship is a spiritual foundation.  We want an organization
|> to try that idea out.  My sons can be in many things.  The Parks and
|> Recreation department and schools offer activities; sports clubs,
|> dance groups, art groups, bands, music, marketing clubs, on and on
|> are available.  Yet outside church I can't think of a single
|> organization that offers spiritual foundations as a basic part of the
|> program.  And inside the church I find the focus too narrow.  As a
|> pluralistic society I believe groups/organizations must also be
|> allowed to have differences.

I agree that groups should be allowed to have differences.
I disagree that scouting, as actually practiced
in the USA is any more spiritual than
orchestra.  (My son has been in both scouting and
orchestra.  The orchestra has practiced and performed
religious music.  I can't think of any similar amount
of time spent in scouts on a religious subject.  Unless
you think that the very fact of excluding atheists
constitutes the "spiritual foundation", I don't see
how you can distinguish Boy Scouts from orchestra on
these grounds.)

|> 
|> It is for this reason that I bring up constitutional rights.  Critics 
|> of the BSA program seem all too happy that a court has ruled atheists 
|> must be allowed in, or that someone else has filed a suit to demand 
|> entry into the BSA.  I find what I view as rights for people to 
|> organize and practice their religious beliefs, as in the BSA, 
|> hardly seem secure.
|> 

Well I am a critic of the BSA program, and I would far prefer
that the BSA voluntarily change their policies than that
they be forced to do so by a court.  The court challenge
will only work when the particular branch of BSA engages
in some action which converts it into a "public organization"
under some state or federal non-discrimination law, or
if they obtained funding under the claim of practicing
non-discrimination.  But the BSA could always avoid
such suits by becoming an explicitly private, discriminatory
organization.  My point is that while it would be
legal to do so, it would be bad for the BSA.

...
|> 
|> It is not required that a person be part of an organized religion. 
|> Only that they express or in different ways think about the
|> spiritual/metaphysical nature of their lives.
|> 
I would imagine that atheists express or in different ways
think about the spiritual/metaphysical nature of their
lives as much as anyone else.

|> >How would your Nebraska scouting program have been significantly
|> >different if "reverent" were interpreted more broadly and
|> >atheists were permitted to advance by making a presentation
|> >of their moral codes similar to those made by members of
|> >organized religions?
|> 
|> As I stated earlier in this post, I believe atheists would object to 
|> allowing a spiritual dimension in the scouts.  I can't see how we 
|> could have a before meal prayer. I question whether we could honor 
|> scouts for their religious awards as we currently do.  My experience 
|> is that in all non-religious organizations, these issues are not 
|> discussed at all.  It becomes an american taboo.
|> 
I don't believe that non-religious organizations avoid
things like before-meal prayer because of pressure from
atheists.  There are too few atheists; you overestimate
their power.

If I had a group of 10 Catholics, 10 Baptists, 10 Jews,
10 Taoists, 10 Buddhists, 10 Confucianists, 10 animists,
and 10 neo-pagans (which presumably the Scouts would
have no problem with), I'd still have a hard time deciding
on a before-meal prayer which would be sensitive to
the different attitudes of all these religions, and
which would still be recognizable as a before-meal prayer.
I don't think adding an atheist or 10 atheists would
make this complicated problem any more difficult.

I still think that excluding atheists is a matter of
prejudice.  People who feel embarrassed saying
"we don't want Hindus in scouting" can still rationalize
saying "we don't want atheists in scouting".

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.scouting