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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:54:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Gonzaga

        Gretchen, good question.  Half the time the administration and
students spend days in contentious debate deciding on how to PRONOUNCE the
word.  Ignatius Loyola Gonzaga (not sure about the middle name; ask Mike
Rupp on this list or Daniela Ferdico, both GUers) is the Jesuit (Catholic)
priest whose name graces this institution.  The Jesuits are reknowned for
intensive education, humanitarianism, service, and human rights (did any
of you ever see The Mission?).  As a reform Jew at this university I have
pryed open my world-view to understand not only Christianity's historical
role as crusader, inquisitioner, and founder of the statement "extra
ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the church there is no salvation) to its
beneficent, deeply compassionate motivator and social change agent that
is slowly but surely embracing religious pluralism (although some would say
that "Death-of-God theology" and "Christian atheism" as methods of mainstream
religion to reconcile itself to modernity a little un-kosher.

By the way, I pronounce it in the Italian dialect (after all, he was fromi
Italy) Gon-za-ga (not ZAG as in "zig-zag," but go figure, our sports teams
use the designation of ZAGS)...

ERACISM
Adam Karp
akarp@gonzaga.edu
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:27:40 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Militantly tolerant

Adam:

To say that the God portrayed in the Old Testament is vengeful and
rather meanspirited is certainly not to suggest that therefore
the followers of that God are nasty brutish and mean.

There was a change in the way God was portrayed between the old and
new testaments, something which has been well documented by Biblical
scholars. But nowhere did I suggest that this reflected a change in
the nature of love among God's followers, simply that the issue of\
love began to take precendence over the issue of punishment.


Militantly tolerant? I am not sure I quite grasp that idea - the Old
testament preaches intolerance and punishment and fear far more than
it preaches love. That is a simple philosophical fact.

Like all discussions of religion, this one is going nowhere because
there seems a fundamental inability to understand that genuine
philosophical interest is not an insult to faith.


<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:10:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Zhao Yong <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>
From:         Zhao Yong <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: GOD/Right or wrong?

I'm not a believer of any religion, so my god (GOD) or GODS may take any
names. This the background for the following message.

I like the idea of being religious but not superstitious. I respect
believers of god(s) GOD(S) when they don't think their GOD is better than
others. I support all religions when they treat each other equally and
respectfully. I worship all god(s) GOD(S) when they are not used as an
excuse to make a distinction between US and them.

What's WRONG with the question "Right or wrong"? Are there any ways to
really answer the question? Religiously or scientifically? I agree with
you that there some universal rules to judge "wrong" or "right", but all
too vague and ambiguous. There is no consensus whatsoever as there is a
NATURAL LAW to decide wrong or right. It's the party who is powerful to
make the LAW, individually, nationally, and internationally. Evidence can
be obtained easily by a breif glance of history. There is a phrase in
Chinese saying:"Losers are thieves, winners are kings".

Right and wrong
Zhao Yong
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:34:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Right and Wrong

I agree with all to the extent that spiritual consensus on "natural law"
is RELATIVE (that is, intersubjective).  In every society there are
different plausibility structures set up to explain phenomena and provide
plausible answers to life's great enigmas.  If you were to carry such
notions as a stock market and national enquirer into a dislocated peasant
commune or aborigine (sp?) tribe, your view would not be compatible with
their mainstream beliefs of say, astrology, witchcraft, the infallibility
of the revolutionary leader or whatever.  You would be part of a cognitive
minority and your views, unless changed or assimilated, would be scoffed
at or humorously tolerated.  Religion is the individual's or community's
response or THEODICY (justification of God) to their own socio-historical
circumstances; as time changes, so does the expedience of truth and thus
moral subjectivity.

take for example the transition from geocentric to heliocentric beliefs
about the solar system.  Remember Galileo's final words as he was taken
off into the dungeons (or house arrest?) after challenging the Church's
geocentric view, which Copernicus had failed to make accepted; "The earth
still moves, nevertheless..."--Galileo faced excommunication; it is clear
today that the Church was dead wrong.

How can we explain truth other than the most expeditious way to live
life practically (something like a HUMAN'S GUIDE TO REALPOLITIK SURVIVAL).
Even today, the sciences (the closest to supposed absolute truth) are
only approximations...

ERACISM
Adam Karp--akarp@gonzaga.edu
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:17:15 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Dave,

Your thoughts on men, American men, are interesting.... I have really not
given much serious thought to why we (men) are the way we are.....only
that it seems terribly unhealthy.....

In my case, coming from a culture where men and women are thoroughly
seperated by gender.... while even in C0ed schools, essentially men
stay with men and women with women...and even after marriage, at parties and
so on, we seperate by gender.....

In any case, the society was very asexual and men/boys spent time with
each other, were best friends to each other and I never had a female friend
till I was here and 20 yrs. old.....

Here, I could occassionally get guys to "do" something with me, be it
shoot pool or hit the bars or discuss politics or sports.... but I could
not get them to share who they were and why..I could not make a connection..
I always got the distinct feeling of causing discomfort when talking about
personal problems.... So essentially, my first 20 years in this world
consisted exclusively of male friends and my last 20 odd of female
friends....It is tough because a female friend stops being a friend with
a male when she meets "boyfriend or husband" potential in another man...
I suppose male insecurities....

.....but I see females hugging each other when they meet, sometimes
dancing with each other on dance floors, holding hands and touching...
rarely do I see men do that and the closeness is just not there unless the
men were childhood friends or gay..

I remember being 26 and waiting at the airport to receive my brother
who was 13 when I last saw him six years earlier....out of the plane
came this now grown 6'ft tall brother who threw his arms around me and
decided to give me a big long hug.... Unfortunately, I had become
"Americanized" and could not give it back, I was more embarassed about
this display in a public place....and back then, perhaps conscious of
not wanting to be thought of by anyone as gay.....  Made me feel very guilty
about my inability for a long long time.... I suppose I have hugged him
often and at each time I get to see him these days trying to make up
for that one time when I tensed up.....

Dave, I suppose in an insecure and individualistic society, its difficult
for men and women to be close friends...particularly if there is a
spouse or boyfriend/girl friend who is insecure (and most are)...but the
women seem to do better within their own gender than men do within theirs..

I know these are broad generalizations but.....

zahir
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: before birth...
Date: 17 Dec 1992 23:00:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET () says:

>Douglas,
>
>If you understand Ruth's seeming contradiction, please try to explain to us.....
>   ..
Hmmm - let's hope someone can, I can't.:-) It's like trying to explain how
you breathe, and trying to give someone else instructions.  We can try, but
if the other person doesn't have a working hypothalamus...good luck.

>And, I am not a Chritian basher....most Christians I know do neither
>consider the rest of us doomed to "hell" nor treat us like we need
>to be "saved"..... I think you are turning over Christianity to the

Pretty natural, I'd say - the "need to be save" part.  Christians are given
direct orders from God [or so we believe] to go out and make disciples.:-)
It's part and parcel of the two major commandments according to our Lord
[or at least according to the Christian Bible]  - to love "the Lord your God
with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength" and
to "love your neighbor as yourself".  It would be a pretty poor Christian who
*didn't* try to spread the word under those conditions.

>"religious right" when you imply that those Christians and others
>who disagree are "christian bashers"....
>
Some of them are - I've gotten called names I can't even type, or won't.
Racist and bigot are just the more polite ones.:-(  And, if that weren't 
enough, some Christians who are a bit relaxed about who they'll hang out
with come in for criticism from others who are more strict.  Not to mention
a host of other things....  
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:18:04 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE: god's academic record (fwd)

hello....

Regarding GOD's tenure..I think this is a free world and you can say anything
you want against anyone even your own creator...anyway GOD doesn't care
anything you say at this moment..but as soon as you die you will findout who
completed the tenure and who didn't....I don't understand 1 thing about
scientific community that is if they cannot prove something they deny its
existence even though it exists..


Ahmed
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:03:53 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: God
              a

I have no difficulty with the suggestion that the Muslim in Indonesia for
example is different from the Muslim in Iran.  The Catholic in Brazil is
different from the Catholic in Ireland.  The heart of their culture is
still their religion.  The point is that Catholicism may be different in
these two countries.  Catholics in Canada are nothing like the Catholics
in most of the other parts of the world.  I use Catholics as an example
because they are considered to be unified.

I don't know if I would limit religion to church identification since
there are so many other aspects to one's beliefs.

You have challenged me to consider the possibility that my notion of
absolutes is false.  I have done this over the years and even now am
questioning my beliefs.  Do you realize that in doing this, I abandon the
notion of absolutes?  It is a completely different world view from that
which suggests that everyone is right.

Let me ask you a what if question.  What if a man were raised void of
values and then decided to because of voices that he had heard destroy all
people of a certain race.  This man gains a following and starts a
religion.  These people believe that they are pleasing the man who fells
that he is a messenger from God.  Is this religion also right?  If it is
not right, on what basis is this decided.

A man in Canada is now fighting in the courts for the right to marry his
daughter.  (Actually he wants to legitimize his decade old relationship
and their three children.)  On what basis do we decide that he is wrong.

If there is a God (and I believe there is), then why would He not choose
to communicate with His creation in a specific fashion.  Our responsiblity
is to determine who is telling the truth...

I have gotten carried away.  Perhaps we should talk about these things off
of this list.  As I am new to this list I am not sure that this is
appropriate.

Garry
gdyck@ccu.umanitoba.ca
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:07:23 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: god's academic record (fwd)

Zahir....
     What can be other explaination....

ahmed
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 17:12:46 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...

-----She/He/They Said ----
->
->Douglas,
->
->When someone says that
->the early Judeo God is neither kindly nor tolerant
->I can only assume that s/he has not read the Bible or as you say the Old
->Testament.  God is abundantly kind and tolerant.  Evidence abounds.
->
->I thought that this was an unnecesarily derogatory statement.
->
->
->Garry
_>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Garry:

I have read the Bible and was being both intellectually fair and respectful
of the beleifs of the Christians and Jews on this list. The God of the Old
Testament is a vengeful one, a punishing God. This in contrast to
the God of the New Testament, characterized by love and tolerance.

This is not derogatory, it is simple understanding. Read C.S.Lewis or
Paul Johnson's history of the early Christian church. For that matter,
read Genesis or Leviticus.

I am certainly not going to flame around over the bible. I asked Ruth
a serious and sincere question. It is a shame that you are to busy loking for
something to argue about to bother to read carefully what people write.



<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:27:41 GMT
From:         Gerry Callaghan <eeigcn@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: News from Germany

Thanks Uwe, for the reports of the demonstrations agains racism in Germany.

I have been reading Primo Levi's book 'If this is a man' recently. Levi was an
Italian Jew and partisan who was in Auchwitz until the liberation.

In it he told a story of the night the SS withdrew. A German political prisoner
sat on Levi's bunk and in a broken voice sang 'The Internationale'.
Somehow he had survived ten years in various camps.

It's important to remember such people even though they were
defeated. It's also important to remember that West Germany was the only country
in the world which had a right to political asylum written into their
constitution.

The neo-nazis are a loud and intermittently dangerous group. They bear more
relationship to the English football hooligans than to any political movement
in Europe today. It may be dangerous to meet them on the street, but they pose
no threat to democracy in Germany or Europe.

Gerry

eeigcn@eeiuc.ericsson.se
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:17:04 -0500
From:         WALFISHM@VAX.LIBRARY.UTORONTO.CA
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

read
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Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 08:36:19 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Militantly tolerant

-----She/He/They Said ----
->
->In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.")
->says:
->
->>Like all discussions of religion, this one is going nowhere because
->>there seems a fundamental inability to understand that genuine
->>philosophical interest is not an insult to faith.
->>


To which Ruth replied:

->But yet, insults have been flying.  Some have, admittedly, been from
->my terminal.  A lot of them have been directed against persons, for holding
->those beliefs.  "How can you be so stupid as to....." seems to be the order
->of the day.  I had a distinct feeling that this was going to happen.:-(
->
->A discussion of this kind *can* work, but in here it doesn't seem to.
->What say you and I call it a night?:-/
->

Why here, I wonder. There have been other occasions where talk has
turned to religion and for reasons of the dynamics of this group,
it descends into vitriol before much of any value gets said.

I wonder what this says about us as a, poorly defined I realize, group.


Goodnight Ruth and sleep well with your wide and loving heart...


  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
  <->                        <->
  <-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
  <-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
  <-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
  <-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
  <->                        <->
  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
From: gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA (Garry Dyck)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: God
Date: 19 Dec 92 16:00:17 GMT
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              a

In some public situations here there are public prayers (the legislature,
some schools, etc) and the prayers are said to make it possible for all to
participate.  Recently a prayer was said where some Indonesians friends
were present. Some of them were Muslim and some were Christian.  I
explained to them later that the prayer was said to please all faiths.
They all found this to be ridiculously funny.  In Indonesia (where it is
illegal to be an athiest), prayers are said in public but they are
clearly belonging to one religion.  Others not in that religion simply do
not participate.

In Indonesia, there is a clear distinction between religions and yet no
apparent religious conflict.  In Canada, there is an attempt to mush all
religions
into one apparently to help us to cooperate ( this comes not from the
government but from religious leaders in some denominations ).I think that
the Indonesian model allows for more dignity for the persons who adhere to
a religion other than the religion of multiculturalism.  Multiculturalism can
still exist in a country where there is dignity for all religions.

I think that the same thing is happening in the US....

It is true that there are common values, Zahir.  Kathleen Gow's _Yes,
Virginia There is right and wrong_ identifies these common values.  The
blend should come in areas where values are taught and not in such as a
way to deny that there are distinctions.  This becomes confusing to
children who are being taught otherwise in their homes.  It pits home
against state.

Garry
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:44:47 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: before birth...

Ruth and anyone else interested :

The God's Word For Windows program can be had by anonymous ftp from
128.252.135.4

under directory:

                mirrors/win3/misc.

The files are labeled gww11_0#.zip

where the number is 1 to 12 for the 12 parts of the program.

It is very very easy to use and very fast [ one of the few shareware
windows apps that actually does exactly what it says it is going to do
and does it well.

Because I am writing about Samoa about the moment, where Christianity
is profoundly important, having ready access to all the texts of the
Bible is a very big help.


Christian Science has an MSDOS based program similar to this but I
think they want a lot of money for it. This program will cost you 35. dollars
and can be had on disk from......

   Kevin Rintoul
        582 Ridley Drive
        Victoria, British Columbia
        Canada
        V9C 1K4

        Internet: rintoul@uvvm.uvic.ca

If anyone out there knows of a similar online program from the Book of
Mormon, please let me know [ The LDS genealogy program is very very good.]


I'm outta here....


<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:30:39 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

Garry,

My last message seemed to have been garbled....

Again, by your exampleare you implying that "Killing" or "incest"
is always wrong?  I may agree with you in those scenarios but I cannot
agree with you that they are always wrong...

zahir
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:26:50 EST
From:         Kerry <U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      BYE GUYS

Hi, this is Kerry.  I'm leaving for Venezuela in one week and so I must
temporarily discontinue my mail (like many of us).  I just wanted to
wish you all well; please be happy and take care.
Merry Christmas , Happy Hannukah, Happy Holidays, Happy all holidays
and             happy new year!!!!

I did not know Patrick, but I would like to express my deepest sympathies
for all who did.  I'm sure he's in a better place where there is no
sickness, sadness, war, hatred or confusion.

Hola Lawana y latinos y otros que pueden hablar espanol!! Feliz Navidad
y Feliz Ano Nuevo.  Wish me luck in Venezuela as my spanish is horrible.

bye guys!!  Take care and God bless you (to whom it concerns)

God , Allah, Yehovah, Jesus, Buddha, Brahma, and other people's gods
who I do not know (the names) bless you all!!

                                             Kerry
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