From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Re: The Moral Basis of Property   was Libertarian history
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:52:32 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <4410012@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> flower@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Graham Flower) writes:
>>>faction of the revolutionary and constitutional leadership.
>>
>>Try a biography of little known figures like George Washington, or
>>Thomas Jefferson. Perhaps Flexners Washigton the Indispensible Man or
>
>I'll look for explicit reference.
>

Please do.

>  Not at all, this is just an example of the founding fathers making a 
>  comromise favoring property holders that is explicitly in the constitution.
>  It should surprise no one that the founders would find property rights
>  important, they were in general large property holders.

You claim that we should accept the premise of an economy based on 
property rights because the "founders" did so.
I dispute this claim on two grounds. First, the "founders" differed amongst
themselves as to the importance of "private property" and changed their
opinions over time. For example, Jefferson began by attacking any tarrifs
but later supported them. And the views of Paine, Jefferson, and 
Monroe were far indeed from the views of Hamilton and Adams.
My second objection is that the "founders" morality and economics is
something that should not be accepted as revealed truth. Read Patrick
Henry's attacks on the Constitution to see some of the really bizzare
moral and legal twistings required to justify slavery as a "liberty"
(of the slaveowners).

              
>>It can be enshrined anywhere you want, but it remains misleading nonsense.
>>The white population systematically looted the black population, and
>>thus gained a very high standard of living. If you then average white
>>and black standards of living together, you arrive at a false description
>>of the standard of living of the "average" south african. In Transkei where
>>life expectencies are in the mid 30's, or in the workers Hostels where
>>men spend years of their lives living in squalid overcrowded baracks
>>amidst prison-like conditions, forbidden to visit with wives or children
>>and working in the worlds most dangerous mines for terrible salaries, 
>>the notion that averaging out standards of living with white suburbanites 
>>in the JHB suburbs produces an impressive number, might not be appreciated.
>
>  I have no doubt that I would find conditions poor, nevertheless the fact
>  remains that South Africa has the highest GNP per capita in Africa. The 

But, I repeat, this GNP is an average of two distinct economies. 
One could similarly claim that Senegal/France has a relatively high
GNP/per capita. In fact, Transkei, Bop, Kwa Zulu, and the other
homelands feature rural poverty as bleak and terrible as anywhere in the
world.

>  fact also remains that black residents of socialist countries to the
>  north stream into South Africa at a problematic rate. They do this because

1) there is no current "stream" of immigrants from Zimbabwae, a socialist
nation, with a terrible government and a long-term drought.
2) Under British and Portugese colonialism, Southern Africna development
was skewed in such a way that South Africa became the industrial 
center. It is not the fault of the current government of Zambia that
the Royal Viceroys of the British Empire decided to build the rail
system and industrial system so that Johannesberg was the industrial
center and "Nyasaland" was a backwater. Similarly, it is not the
fault of the current government of Mozambique that the Portugese 
built only east west roads in Mozambique, or that they systematically
destroyed every piece of machinery in Mozambique when they left in 
1972, or that they prevented their lucky subjects from acquiring any
education at all so that there were 3 engineers in Mozambique in 1972.
3) South Africa sits on the worlds largest gold mines. These are a magnet
for labor, and this has nothing to do with the economic system of South
Africa or its neighbors.
4) South Africa and US right wing extremists helped organize and arm
a terrorist movement in Mozambique which has completely dismantled the
Mozambique economy.


>  Since you are quoting Slovo as a source of first resort and Slovo is 
>  pretty much a Leninist It would appear you are endorsing such views. Slovo

Appaer to whom? Slovo made a simple, but important point. I can agree with
this point without accepting Leninism, whether or not Slovo is still a
Leninist.

>  is pretty well accepted by american and european communists who appear
>  to me to be pretty much Leninist in orientation. Leninists will certainly
>  remove a market economy in South Africa, the consequences of this are pretty
>  predictable based upon Russian, East european experiences. If you are

The SACP is now calling for a mixed economy. I saw Chris Hani, the current
SACP chirman speak here, and he was booed by our local communists when 
he said that people can't eat slogans.

>  endorsing Slovo and the ANC vision then you are by and large endorsing
>  the Russian model. The results may be good for black south africans in the

The ANC is not the same as the SACP, and since neither organization is
calling for following the Russian model, your entire shaky chain of
reasoning is invalid.

>  short term, but in the long term almost certainly will result in fewer
>  human rights and less wealth even by the poor standards of South Africa. 

That's absurd. Read the South Afican Institute of Race Relations yearbook
for a couple of years to find out what black "human rights" under the
Apartheid regime consisted of.

>  The pattern of reduction in human rights and wealth may well follow the
>  type of evolution that occured in Rhodesia, I doubt many people in that

Standards of living for most of the population showed a dramatic increase
in Zimbabwae after the fall of Smith, despite the stupidity and
corruption of the current government.

>  Slovo it should be noted is Russian born. There are many who believe he is

Lithuanian.  Lithuania was a fascist nation when Slovo moved to SA.


>  a KGB plant a la Rudolph Hermann. I express no view on this since I have 

And many believe that Martin Luther King was a Soviet Agent who stirred up
trouble in a happy-go-lucky community of negroes who knew their place and
liked it. Many people believe all kinds of nonsense.


>  Since you advocate elimination of private property this is consistent, and 
>  such an elimination also implies the elimination of a market economy. 

Your extrapolations are brave, but wrong.

> Ignoring them can be as well. There is no large pure socialist economy that
> has attained reasonable success in either human rights or in standard of
> living. I therefore suggest we maintain private property and a market 
> economy.

Of course, there is plenty of misery and poverty all over the world, and 
such stellar clients of the IMF as Zaire, Chile, and Brazil are failures
on any human terms. 

> Countries which started poor and socailized have not improved, but have gotten
> poorer. Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and Tanzania are examples. Julius Neyere is 

Zimbabwae is a terrible example for your case. Look up the numbers.

> about as benevolent and talented a leader as one can find, yet his gentle
> socialist experiment had disappointing results. 

Neyere was neither benevolent nor talented at anything other than 
staying in power.


-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

From: flower@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Graham Flower)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:26:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Smith Corona plant closure
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server