HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mueller@b30news.b30.ingr.com ( Phil Mueller )
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:48:57 GMT

In article <1ik53bINNjkj@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.180756.24259@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
>As far as PC goes:  Where are the women in Starship Troopers?  Were they
>ALL unfit for infantry duty, so that not a single one could make it into
>a base camp of 10000 recruits?  Sounds a bit suspect to me...
>

In _The Cat Who Walks through Walls_ there a quite a few women combatants.
The books were written under quite different circumstances.  ST was aimed
at teenage boys, and possibly his editor wouldn't have approved women
soldiers.  TCWWtW was written for adults.  Also, Heinlien had little clout
at the time of ST.

Of course, RAH could have changed his mind too.  Or he may have just played
a joke on us.

-- 
Phil Mueller                  Telephone:  (205) 730-3231
Intergraph Corporation        FAX number: (205) 730-3453
Mailstop: GD3000              Internet: mueller@b30news.b30.ingr.com
Huntsville, AL 35894-0001     UUCP address: bogus.dont.use
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 8 Jan 1993 08:23:53 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu> williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:
>I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
>worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???
>
[...]
>
>It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
>NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
>that momentous?
Yep. Jack McDevitt. A writer too often ignored simply because he hasn't
written enough to be remembered by a fickle SF fandom, but what he has written
is superb.
>Kent Williams -- williams@cs.uiowa.edu Work(335-4496) Home(338-6053)

Chua
+==+
From: ST401844@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Stewart Crall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Niven/Pournelle
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:12:58 GMT

I remember reading somewhere that Heinlein made a major contribution to "the
Mote in God's Eye," and that this is the reason the book stands so far above
anything else Niven and Pournelle have come up with either alone or together.

The story was that an early version was sent to Heinlein who sent back 60
pages of suggestions.

Does anybody know more about this?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jmalcolm@sura.net (Joseph Malcolm)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: SURAnet, College Park, MD, USA, NA, Earth, Milky Way
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:17:30 GMT

In article <1602@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>In article <1im3ss$fog@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>Au contraire, mon frere!  I find the idea simply delightful.  
>
>	'Cause you're obviously a pretty sick puppy, Curtis -- though
>I mean that in the nicest possible way.

And I'm sure he appreciates that.

>	It WOULD make for a stupid series, though; such an ending would
>contradict the thrust of both prior movies and ruin the effect. I don't
>agree with the apparent attitude of some people which seems to hold that
>dark makes better movies than light just BECAUSE it's dark.

Or perhaps they'd just like a change from the usual run-of-the-mill?
Most movies (not all), especially space opera-type movies, have a
strong tendency for the good guys to win.

-- 
Joseph Malcolm				jmalcolm@sura.net		
SURAnet Operations			+1 301 982 4600
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: schumach@stortek.com (Kurt Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Barker, C.
Reply-To: schumach@stortek.com
Organization: Storage Technology Corp
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 17:14:13 GMT


In article 01GTA5JMYEPY94ES8U@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA, 8912669@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("MICHAEL LONERGAN, MCMASTER, 525-0722") writes:
>I hear his latest novel is more in the "fantasy" vein than the previous 
>bloody work

Barker's later works (Weaveworld, The Great and Secret Show and Imajica) are
indeed fantasy, but we're not talking swords and sorcery here.  This is 
definitely *dark* fantasy.  There are some elements of horror in these books,
but it's not the predominant theme.  My wife can't stand horror books, and I
would not usually give recommend anything by King to her.  But I gave her
Weaveworld, and she's hooked on Barker now.  I much prefer Barker's long novels
to his earlier short stories.  His writing is very intelligent, very bizarre
(sometimes very grotesque), and contains some very black humor at times.  I
agree with your friends: drop everything and read Barker.

	Kurt
From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Forever War and Starship Troopers (was: Heinlein - Politically correct?)
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:11:12
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
	<1993Jan8.194109.10066@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
	<1irt7lINN31s@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de's message of 11 Jan 1993 13:37:57 GMT

In article <1irt7lINN31s@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.194109.10066@beaver.cs.washington.edu> barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington) writes:
>>Haldeman's "Forever War" had a coed infantry.  I recall hearing that
>>Heinlein liked the book, and a remark to the effect that "if Starship
>>Troopers were written today (1970's) the MI would be coed", but I don't 
>>recall who made the remark (don't think it was RAH).

>I think the mixed units in "Forever War" were both a deliberate stab at
>"Starship Troopers" and, possibly, a result of Haldeman's tour in
>Vietnam.

It seems to me that both "Starship Troopers" and "The Forever War"
strongly reflect the war experiences of Heinlein (a WWII naval
officer) and Haldeman (a Vietnam draftee) -- as well as the attitudes
towards war held by their respective generations.

For the WWII soldiers, war was a heroic fight to protect the American
way of life against evil aggressors.  For the Vietnam soldiers, war
was a dirty, immoral, unwinnable conflict marked by ineptitude,
confusion, and despair.  The WWII GI's (like Rico) knew exactly what
they were fighting for -- Mom, apple pie, and the American (Terran)
flag.  The Vietnam draftees (like Mandela) had no idea what they were
fighting for, and didn't want to be there in the first place.

Actually, both attitudes seem a bit dated today.

Imagine if "Starship Troopers" or "The Forever War" were written now
-- say, by a Gulf War F-117A pilot in his mid-twenties.  The war would
be high-tech, high energy, and broadcast in real-time, and the
soldiers would be highly skilled professionals who would know exactly
why they're fighting -- to win.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Date: 5 Jan 93 06:08:13 GMT
Back-References: <1993Jan2.183156.9142@netcom.com>

In <1993Jan2.135330.12000@math.ucla.edu> David Stein wrote:
>    Well, will you again refer to "good scholarship" or will you 
>    bother to support your statements with your own arguments?

In this one case, no.  I don't believe I can argue *this* matter better than
my sources, I don't believe I stand to learn anything significant from
debating it with you, and I have many more urgent claims on my attention.

This dismissal is not out of any lack of respect for your intelligence or
critical perception --- it's just that you seem to lack the minimum of
specialized knowledge of the field needed to make such a debate interesting
for *me*.

When you've read the standard sources and can demonstrate that you command at
least the relevant *facts* of SF's history and development, I will be happy to
debate interpretations with you.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:35:21 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rcharbon@athena.mit.edu (Ray Charbonneau)

In article <1993Jan11.171559.29298@athena.mit.edu>, rcharbon@athena (Ray Charbonneau) writes:
>WE are the victims of Piers Anthony's success.

What do you mean, `WE'?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Date: 10 Jan 93 05:18:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue.1614
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1inlrnINN5m6@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>  Well, to me it seemed obvious.  We had the ring, the good guys were in the 
>West, the bad guys were in the East, the good guys had once been much stronger
>than they were now, there was a group of horse-people (Ramen and Ranyhyn vs.
>the Rohirrim --very different cultures though), we had a volcano play an import-
>ant part in the story, plus the part you mentioned, etc.

	I'll give you SOME parallel on the Rohirrim and the Ramen, but the
cultural differences make it at best a lip-service parallel. The Ring of
Sauron was an inherently corruptive influence -- more parallel, in fact,
to the Ravers or Illearth Stone than to the Ring that Covenant wielded.
The main bad guy in the Covenant series could be, and was, confronted by
the Good Guy; Sauron could not be faced by anyone in Middle-Earth. 
Paradoxically, of course, Sauron who couldn't be directly attacked COULD be,
and was, completely vanquished and destroyed, while Lord Foul could not
ever be destroyed or defeated for all time.

	
	What I'm saying is that the parallels you're seeing are actually
just elements which, with very little variation, will show up in almost 
ALL epic quests; I think that the biggest Tolkien influence in the 
Covenant series was in Donaldson's attempt to make the world of the Land
detailed and self-contained. Other than that, I see little relationship --
that is, I think that you could find equally weak parallels between ANY
two works in the same general field (Hmm, even between LotR and Amber,
I think I could...)


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 9 Jan 93 06:07:09 GMT
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell) writes:

>And I don't fault the chain stores for being mainly profit machines.

I do, because they're the folks making it tough for the independent stores
to survive. Of course, it's the readers who are in the chain stores buying
TSR books and Conan instead of in the real bookstores buying decent books,
but that's clearly not the reader's fault...

>What bothers me is that many specialty stores (like SF & Fantasy) and  
>independent, "literary" stores -- the ones who are in it more for love than for  
>money -- are struggling to stay alive.

Yeah, because it's tough when all your customers are at the mall buying
Stephen King at 35% off list.

>I'm not sure whether that's a product of the recession or of a decline in  
>reading.

The recession is part of it. The stupiding of America is an even bigger
part. All those 'horrible' books sell so well because that's exactly what
the people our schools are churning out are asking for.

You want to fix the bookstores? you want better, literary books in the
stores instead of TSR, Gor and etc? Fix the schools, and bring up readers
instead of folks who spend their money on TV, Beer, and Video games.

But don't blame the publishers for reacting to a marketplace they didn't
create.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven a misogynist?
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:38:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1993Jan8.191016.23773@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <9301080721.AA18439@rutgers.edu> BECKS@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Sara Beck) writes:
[Re: Larry Niven]
>>But if EVERY alien species this writer can find in his imagination
>>has either profoundly defective females, great threats in
>>child-bearing, or both, phrases like "deep-seated authorial neurosis"
>>begin to come to mind.

>"EVERY" alien species? You weaken your case considerably by
>overstating it. Let's run through the Niven sentient species, shall
>we?
[List of many Niven aliens deleted, which includes two (2) with
nonsentient females, and one (1) with nonsentient males.]

There's also the Pak proper, in which *all* breeders of either sex
are nonsentient, and the Chirpsithra, whose males... well, no human
has ever seen one. Who knows?

Methinks Sara has a humongus chip on her shoulder.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Sf Starter Kit
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 11:53:09 -0600

 CH> A friend of mine recently asked me for 7-10 books that would give a
 CH> good overview of science-fiction. I haven't really read that much SF,
 CH> but managed to comb through my memory to suggest these titles to her:-
     [list not repeated]

There's lots of alternatives that could be suggested and complaints
that could be made about that or any other list of 7-10 books, but I
think that's a very credible effort especially for somebody who
hasn't really read that much SF.

Dune is an absolute must-keep on the list.  I'd put in a major
Zelazny, probably Lord of Light (mythic), and a major Brunner like
Stand on Zanzibar (dystopian SF).  Neuromancer is another absolute
must-keep.  What about a Doc Smith (say First Lensman), space opera
needs a sample on the list too.  I'd drop Stranger and put on BOTH
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Time Enough For Love.  Then you need
a good time travel; maybe Silverberg's Up The Line would serve.
Niven's Neutron Star collection for hard SF, and to add some short
stories to the collection.

In line with your stated goals, I'm trying for breadth of type with
the best examples possible within each type, but no doubt people will
strongly disagree anyway.  And I find I can't help but think in terms
of *authors* who need to be represented.

I doubt we can agree on a truly definitive list, but I think the
discussion is worthwhile for itself, and that a very *useful* if not
fully definitive list can be developed.  Would you consider making
the list about 25, with the idea that it'll get pared down by the
reader or the recommender to about 10?  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:21:33 GMT

In article <1i68ggINNlu2@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) writes:
>
>In a previous article, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) says:
>
>>I haven't really been following this thread, so these might've been
>>mentioned already:
>>
>>  _Peace War_ and _Marooned in Real Time_ by Vernor Vinge
>>
>>Neither one is about anarchy directly, but I think the idea of
>>anarchy plays an important role in both stories...
>
>The story that comes between them, "The Ungoverned", (found in _True Names
>and Other Dangers_) deals with it more directly.
>
ALL three of these works have been collected into one volume entitled
_Across Realtime_ published by Baen Books recently.


-- 
<< Michael Rogero Brown                      | Disclaimer: I speak     >>
<< CS Graduate Student-Florida Atlantic Univ |  only for myself.       >>
<< Internet: michaelb@sol.cse.fau.edu        | All my opinions are     >>
<< BitNet: m_brown@fauvax                    |  that: mine & opinions. >>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: 1992 in Review
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:20:25 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.210901.3166@psych.toronto.edu> dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.173600.1065@speedy.aero.org> nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:
>>
>>I don't keep simple lists of books - I keep a journal and write anything from
>>a half-page to 3 pages whenever I finish a book.  
>
>I'm impressed.  I keep an intermittent journal, but I find it
>hard enough to keep track of my reading in lists (I started
>backsliding in August and never caught up).  Don't you find it
>difficult to find beautiful blank books?  Personally, I dislike
>those with lines -- you can see a lot about how you felt on a
>certain day from your line spacing.  Also, I use a fountain pen
>to write journal entries or letters, so the type of paper in the
>book is important (those with recycled paper tend to absorb ink).
>
Actually, I find that keeping journals is easy as long as you're firmly
resolved to do it.  I don't go to sleep on Sunday night without being
thoroughly caught up on the week.

I like lines in blank books, probably because I don't really want to
remind myself I was depressed by lines slanting down.  Also, it just makes
it easier for me to be legible.  I find recycled paper is alright if it's
high enough grade (in other words, it depends on what it was recycled from)
and you might also try experimenting with inks.  Soy ink is politically
correct these days, but I find it ugly.

I do find that it is difficult to go back and reread my general journal.
There is a theory that nobody keeps a diary without wanting it read 
someday but I periodically throw out the old ones.  Of course, I'm also
the person who burned the love letters from the only man who ever proposed
to me while sober, so I may have a singularly unsentimental mindframe.

Incidentally, for the compulsively organized, I find it best to keep lists
of books to acquire on index cards.  More portable than lists that have
to be printed out and toted around, as you can take just a few cards to
the bookstore.  This may work less well for people who think it's weird
to file mail order catalogs alphabetically in hanging file folders in a
real file cabinet drawer.  My books, however, tend to get put away wherever
there's room of the right size.


Miriam Nadel
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16951 rec.arts.books:23832
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: 1992 in Review
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:15:11 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1993Jan4.210901.3166@psych.toronto.edu>, dsy@psych (Desiree Sy) writes:
[...]
>Salomon is (was?) the film critic for the Wall Street Journal.

WSJ has a *film critic*?  I never would've guessed it...

-- 
[An intertialess drive] is not probable at all, at least in any extrapolation
of present-day science.  But as far as I can determine, it cannot be proved
absolutely impossible, and that is enough for me.        -E. E. "Doc" Smith
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17053 rec.arts.books:24086
From: staffan@ca.serum.kodak.com (Kenneth Staffan (x37507))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Stationery & diaries (was 1992 in Review)
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:20:56 GMT
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company

>>I don't keep simple lists of books - I keep a journal and write anything from
>>a half-page to 3 pages whenever I finish a book.  

Mine varies greatly too, but when referring to books, I have kindof a
fixed-format header that I start with - author, title, etc., where I found
the book and/or why I decided to read it, etc.

>>I'm impressed. [...] Don't you find it
>>difficult to find beautiful blank books?  Personally, I dislike
>>those with lines -- you can see a lot about how you felt on a
>>certain day from your line spacing.  Also, I use a fountain pen
>>to write journal entries or letters, so the type of paper in the
>>book is important (those with recycled paper tend to absorb ink).

Well, I'm not sure I'd call them beautiful, but my favorite are actually
artists sketchbooks, in the 6 x 8.5" size.  The stock is heavy, so what
I write doesn't show through the other side.  It's also pure white, and
doesn't yellow over (reasonable) time.  The brand that I use is hard
bound, and shelves nicely after being filled.  The pages aren't lined,
but I do keep a couple lined sheets in the back, which I slip behind
pages when I feel I want a bit of a guide.  I use pencil, not ink.

>>I do find that it is difficult to go back and reread my general journal.

Boy, not me!  With a memory like a sieve, I re-learn things every time
I do :-).

>>There is a theory that nobody keeps a diary without wanting it read 
>>someday but I periodically throw out the old ones.  

Hmm...  I would be embarrassed to think that someone else would read mine.
Not that there's anything specific to be embarrassed about, but I'm afraid
that I wouldn't be as honest and/or free-flowing if I thought that someone
else might read what I was writing.  I was a great essay writer through
high-school and college, but that was a bit of a mask - writing knowing
a certain audience - that I'd rather not put on in my own notes.

Ken
---
staffan@serum.kodak.com
From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Michael McCollum
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:24:33 GMT
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <38158@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> cjd@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Dean) writes:
>Does anyone know if Michael McCollum plans to continue his _Antares_ series
>and his _Life Probe_ series? Also, are there any other fans of his out there?
>I don't see him talked about that much.

I like his stuff.  I recall picking up _Antares_Dawn_ at the same time I got
Michael P. Kube-McDowell's _Emprise_, and thinking that McCollum was the
better writer by far (though Kube-McDowell seemed to get all the accolades).

I enjoyed _Procyon's_Promise_, though I felt _Life_Probe_ was rather tedious.
I loved both Antares novels, though.

I haven't yet read _Thunder_Strike!_, _The_Clouds_Of_Saturn_ or
_The_Sails_Of_Tau_Ceti_ yet, though.  _A_Greater_Infinity_ I'll discuss in my
next post...

-- 
Michael Rawdon				  rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department,  Madison, WI

"...I trusted [Ganelon] like a brother.  That is to say, not at all."
				- Roger Zelazny, _The_Guns_Of_Avalon_
From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:17:50 GMT
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London


	In  'Tunnel in the  sky',  wasn't the protagonist's sister
a combat-experienced  soldier?

							James Nicoll
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written