HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nall@ibm12.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Downside of sailboat sitting on bottom??
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:49:39 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

With the help of some good advice from different people of
this newsgroup, I'm very close, now, to being ready to purchase
the boat I want.   Looks like the type which will best fit the
bill (with regard to availability, price, space, etc.) will be
a 22 or 23 foot boat with either a centerboard or a swing keel.

The one potential problem that I'm still mulling over, however, is
the extremely shallow water that I'm going to have to keep it in.
In order to avoid $100 a month slip fees, I'm going to keep it tied
to a floating dock in a small canal (which gives me access to the
Gulf of Mexico).  Or else use a trailer, which I would rather not
do.  My experiences with trailers (power boats) have been unpleasant.

The water in my little canal gets very shallow at low tide, and without
any doubt whatsoever the boat is going to be sitting on the bottom
a lot of the time.  Any real downside to this??   The motor will be
an outboard, which I'll either raise or remove, so there should not
be a problem with that.  Obviously I need to ensure that there are
not devices such as transducers, etc., which may be damaged.  And the 
design has to be such that it will sit square on the bottom, rather
than rolling to one side or the other.  The bottom is dark sand, and
seems to be firm but not hard.

Before I make the final plunge, does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Any advice appreciated, especially from those who have actual experience
with keeping boats in very shallow water.  (But theory appreciated, too).

Thanks,

John

-- 
John W. Nall              | Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
nall@mailer.scri.fsu.edu  | Florida State University, Tallahassee, Florida
  "Why yes, as a matter of fact, I DID vote for Hillary!!" - me
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: dean@MorningStar.Com (Dean Schell)
Subject: Re: Hudson -> Erie, etc. (was: Who's planning a cruise? Where and When?)
Organization: Morning Star Technologies
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:22:18 GMT

>In article <1993Jan6.001931.23647@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rpw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Ray Wagner) writes:
>>Speaking of crusing, if anybody has done the Hudson River,
>>Erie Canal, Great Lakes, Ohio River, Mississipi and Ten-Tom,
>>I'd like to have a chat. We'd like to do that one, but I
>>think I might have to carry it from Erie PA to the Ohio...

Although Ohio at one time had a canal system that did allow canal boats
to travel from Lake Erie to the Ohio, I know that today there is no way
to get from Lake Erie down to the Ohio River using Ohio's rivers unless
maybe you have a canoe and are willing to handle some long portages. 

However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Chicago River
connects to the Illinois River which connects to the Mississippi and
thence to the Gulf.  Although once again that route may be fit only for 
a canoe.  Anybody know for sure?

-dean
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: mbr@bellcore.com (Mark Rosenstein)
Subject: New York Boat Show: a short review
Reply-To: mbr@bellcore.com (Mark Rosenstein)
Organization: Bellcore, Morristown, NJ
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:28:35

I zipped over to the New York Boat Show on Saturday. I spent about 2
hours there. It was $8, so a bit more than a movie. This is show number
3 for me. From 1991->1992, the show shrunk about 1/3. This year, I'd
say there were about as many exhibitors as '92, but there were substantially
fewer high end powerboats. Looking across the exhibit floor, it was
basically flat, ie., no gigantic Bertrans or whatever the big buck buyers
would be interested in.

The exhibits breakdown is about 50% powerboats, and 50% accessories
(clothes, jewelry, West Marine). As I have no interest in powerboats,
I have nothing to say about that half. 

The thing that amazed me most was the price of GPS's continues downward. One
of the stands had the panasonic GPS for under $700 (I think $695), and
lots of folks (like magellan) for around $800. [Yes I know that PS in their
latest article wasn't all that pleased with the Panasonic, but gosh its
the size of a pack of cigarettes.]

I really wasn't in the market for anything, but here are the things I 
picked up were: Nynex's boaters yellow pages (free), the name of a place
to charter J24's in Newport, NJ (near the PATH stop for those of us who
favor public transport), and a bunch of $5 books that one of the booksellers
had.

Oh yes. Beneteau and Hunter had a small handful of Sailboats, and there
was someone with a NautiCat (sp?) and another bunch with some hobies
(20' and/or 21').

Anyway, it was an excuse for me to go into NYC visit some bookstores
and see a play as well.

Mark.
=-=-=-=-=-=
The sailor reaches his destination the moment the sails are raised.
    --unknown source
From: costin@cogsci.ucsd.EDU (Dan Costin)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Downside of sailboat sitting on bottom??
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:21:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Department of Cognitive Science, UCSD

The port in Deauville, France is in a river, and the tide is so huge
that the river drains to a mere stream at low tide.  I have some
pretty amusing pictures of brightly colored fishing boats sitting
on their keels (single keel) with people looking at them from the
underside.  These boats were about 30 ft long, if my sense of
length serves me right.  So, if you have something to tie the boat
to to keep it balanced, shouldn't most boats be able to stand
supported on their keels?

-dan

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: floydb@rpi.edu
Subject: Re: BOAT/US and rec.boats
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:10:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan06.081141.28688@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> scott@prodplan.Columbia.NCR.COM (Scott Bridges) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.211706.6679@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jadams@vixen.cc.bellcore.com (adams,john) writes:
>>Fellow netters,

stuff deleted

>Excellent idea.  Let us know what they say.  I thint that someone from Boat/US
>would make a great source of information on laws, equipment, whatever.
>They might also gain something from listening to our discussions.
>
>Scott
>
>-- 
>Scott Bridges                               Phone (803) 791-6387
>NCR Corp-MCPD Columbia                      Fax (803) 739-7362
>3325 Platt Springs Rd                       scott@prodcntr.columbiaSC.NCR.COM
>West Columbia, SC 29170

What is BOAT/US and what do they do? How do you contact them?

barry
From: wwalker@qualcomm.com (Bill Walker)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Chicago Boat Show
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:38:10 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats
Distribution: na
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.

In article <1993Jan7.143501.9209@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>,
steve@bcrvmpc2.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> The Catalina 22 has a great rep and there are a million of them out
> there.  You can find good used ones for about 3.5k and up ready
> to sail.

What's the difference between a Catalina 22 and a Capri 22, both of which
are made by the same company?

> 
> I've read Practical Sailor's review on the Hunter 23.5 and
> they said that it did not sail to windward very well and
> in stiffer breezes it wasn't very stable.
> 
> I've also read the reviews on the Santana 2023 by Schock, it's
> supposed to be a very nice boat in the same class as the Hunter
> and Catalina, haven't seen one tho'

The hang glider dealer just up the street from my office has become a
dealer for these, for some reason, so he's got one parked up there.  I took
a look at it one day.  Caveat:  I'm not a terribly experienced sailor, but
I've been boating all my life.  My impressions:

1) It's built to a price ($13,500 including trailer and sails, and I've
seen ads throwing in an outboard for that price), and it shows.  The glass
work around the cockpit and transom has a lot of rough spots, and the
interior looks very cheap (I estimate the door to the enclosed head crawl
space will last just until the first time somebody grabs it when the boat
rolls in a swell or gust).

2) The rig is very lightly built.  I expect this was intentional, to make
it easy to rig and unrig (they advertise something like 12 minutes rigging
time).  The sails looks like sailboard sails (i.e., made of typical
sailboard nylon-like material, rather than the heavier dacron I'm used to
seeing on sailboats).  The boom is just a small tube, attached to the mast
at a single point, to allow it to rotate so the main can be would around
it.

3) There's no standing room below, due to the ballast tanks being under the
floor.  It's strictly a crawl space (though a fairly large one for the size
of the boat).

4) The boat has an open transom.  Handy for swimming, great for cockpit
draining, but I wouldn't have one.  I have a child to keep aboard.  I've
seen these on a number of boats lately, and I don't understand the purpose.
 Perhaps somebody can enlighten me.  It seems to me it could be quite
dangerous in a following sea.


----------
Bill Walker - WWalker@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA
All opinions expressed are mine, and do not reflect those of my employer.
"First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
From: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM (Jeff Huntington)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Water System
Date: 8 Jan 93 01:38:02 GMT
Reply-To: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: nonsuch.ebay.sun.com

In article 1iifkmINNsdr@cat.cis.Brown.EDU, jfh@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes) writes:
> In article <1993Jan7.144831.2594@progress.com> gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras) writes:
In article 1iifkmINNsdr@cat.cis.Brown.EDU, jfh@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes) writes:
> In article <1993Jan7.144831.2594@progress.com> gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras) writes:
> 
> Now, does anyone need an old Jabsco with a reamed-out connecting rod, a motor
> that's had a couple of wires in the armature re-attached by an amateur (me), 
> and a whole lot of rust? 
> 
> I'll sell it *real* cheap...
> 
> -JOhn




John,

Quick, see if it floats. :-0

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: mroberts@ptdcs2.intel.com (Mark Roberts ~)
Subject: Re: Oil Tanker Grounding
Organization: Intel Corporation -- Aloha, Oregon
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:48:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.215251.21917@leland.Stanford.EDU> stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski) writes:
>
>Some teeth are being gnashed over the abandonment of the Braer by her
>crew. I wonder how many gnashers have experienced the terror of being
>in a powerless ship during a really big storm? How many of them would
>wave off a rescue chopper, knowing that it might be their last act?
>
>The safety of the marine environment cannot depend on the validity of
>the hoary Victorian myth that those who make a living on the sea are
>endowed with superhuman courage.
>
>Stefan
>
>
>
>

Well put Stefan, thank-you.  

					Fish to Live, Live to Fish
					   'Fish Assassin' Mark
					     Pacific City, OR
From: jfh@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: New AC Rules
Date: 4 Jan 1993 20:24:37 GMT
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
NNTP-Posting-Host: euclid.cs.brown.edu

In article <1993Jan4.182824.13958@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com> dave@rsd.dl.nec.com (Dave Rogers) writes:
>
>In case ya'll didn't see it in the Jan 1993 issue of Crusing World.
>There are some interesting developments in the offing for the next
>America's Cup.  A joint committee of challengers and defenders has
>issued proposed new rules to cover some of the oversights in the
>previous AC.  
>
>	- max of two new boats
>	- strict limitations on nationality of participants
>	- ban on use of titanium
>	- max weight of all sails on board limited
>[...]
>	- limitation on exotic designs 

I propose a rec.boats project: let's redesign the AC. I propose a few more
alterations (which others should feel free to reject). 

(1) All races to be sailed in sequence (no lay days) unless winds are 
      gale force or higher
(2) No electronics (now *that* would save money)
(3) One race (of five) to be sailed offshore at night.


Of course, this would make the AC a test of something altogether different
from what it test now. But it would be a test of things that *I* am
interested in, and since this is *my* pipe dream...

For those who say "But what about the trickle-down, from all those high-tech
inventions of the AC into ordinary craft?," I can only say that some of 
the worst possible things have trickled down (e.g. Wing Keels, of all things),
and that I'd rather see great innovations in seaworthiness trickle down. 

Of course, at the same time, I'd like to see the Little America's Cup 
modified too, with the C-class rule modified to say "No more than 25 feet
LOA. No other restrictions." I'd still like an Olympic course, though. Perhaps
an even better rule would be "No more than 300 sq feet of sail/wing area."

-John
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: jc@tackle.uucp (John Capo)
Subject: Re: Which older Balsa-Core sailboats are OK?
Keywords: fiberglass construction
Organization: Technology Atlanta Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:34:02 GMT

In article <1hsnvnINN6v2@transfer.stratus.com> cbarr@coyote.sw.stratus.com (Chris Barr) writes:
>Re - buying an older sailboat, 15-30 years old:
>
>I understand that through-hull or through-deck fittings on balsa-core 
>fiberglass must be done correctly to prevent water penetration of the
>balsa wood, which would cause delamination of the fiberglass.
>
>Which makers, after generally which year, made balsa-core fiberglass
>sailboats correctly?  Is there a publication which would answer
>this?
>
>I've seen a 1970 'Pawnee' sloop, made by Chris-Craft, which
>appeared to have this problem next to the hatchway, where 
>electronics were probably mounted:  a bulgingly deformed
>interior surface which had filled-in screw holes.  Otherwise

I have a 1973 Columbia with balsa-core decks and some balsa-core in the
hull.  Its a nightmare.  The hull core is OK.  Not too many holes there
and leaks are noticed in a hurry.  The core in the area where a through-hull
is installed has been removed and replaced with laminate.  This glass area
is a few inches larger in diameter than the nut on the through-hull.

Decks are a different story.  You can have a leak into the core that may
go un-noticed for a long time.  After a while the core rots and turns
into a black, mushy, smelly, foul mess.

I have removed the core from the entire foredeck and replaced it with
plywood.  No easy task.  All holes in my deck, life-line stanchions, cleats,
etc., have been isolated from the core by removing 1.5" of core around the
hole and filling the void with expoxy filler.  The hole is then drilled
through the epoxy.  If the bolt starts leaking it runs through into the
interior rather than into the core.  Should have been built this way to
begin with.

Someday I will actually get the deck painted again :-)

Stay away from balsa-core!

--
John Capo       jc%tackle.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu   gatech!vta!tackle!jc
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Oil Tanker Grounding
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:53:11 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Greg Pavlov writes:

	Hey, we ALL ride out hurricane-force storms all the time.  
	No sweat.

The difficulties involved in passage-making from Norway to Canada in 
mid Winter are well understood. Where did you get your information 
about Force 12 winds (which is what your claim of "hurricane force winds"
would imply)? If a ship and crew are not capable of weathering what the 
North Sea puts out on a regular basis, then they should not be there. 
I do notice that whatever the weather was or wasn't, it did not prevent 
a helicopter from performing rescue duties. 

This is a tale of a greedy tanker company taking a short-cut with a second-
rate ship and a third-rate crew. I do think it is unfortunate that a
weak government allowed themselves to be persuaded by the media and the
usual no-nothing so-called "ecologists" into using detergent in the
clear up operation. 

Francis Muir
FELIX
Port of Redwood City
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: gerard@progress.COM (Gerard Bras)
Subject: Re: Inverter rules of thumb
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:39:45 GMT

rpw@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Ray Wagner) writes:

>Here's a relatively stupid question. What's the amp hour
>capacity of your average 8D marine battery?

It varies.  As I recall it it's about 200-225.  It varies, by manufacturer, by age,
by how it's been treated, by temperature.....

Look in the West or Boat/US or marine electric vendor for actual claims.

cheers,
gerard
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: wex@castle.ed.ac.uk (John Wexler)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Downside of sailboat sitting on bottom??
Date: 11 Jan 93 11:11:25 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service

In article <11630@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>, nall@ibm12.scri.fsu.edu
(John Nall) writes:
|> So if someone could supply some brand names for bilge-keel boats, I
|> could watch for them to be advertised.  (I have one name already, a
|> Drascombe, which is on my list).

I can recommend the Drascombe boats very highly (and if you ask me
nicely, I'll re-post my article about them), but they don't have bilge
keels.  They have centre-plates.

They will sit on the ground very comfortably, and mine has often spent
time on the beach.

I have got a trailer which makes it EXTREMELY easy to get my boat in and
out of the water.  However, the breakback trailer normally supplied for
these boats (in Britain) is not so easy.  Deduction: not all trailers
are as difficult for launching and recovery as the ones you may have
tried.  Observation: sailing boat owners accept a level of grief and
annoyance from their trailers which power boat owners would not
tolerate.  Suggestion: consider a centre-plate boat with a good trailer.

    John Wexler
    Edinburgh
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Hudson -> Erie, etc. (was: Who's planning a cruise? Where and When?)
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:07:16 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

>DATE:   6 Jan 93 19:16:08 GMT
>FROM:   Robert Hanners <hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
>>However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Chicago River
>>connects to the Illinois River which connects to the Mississippi and
>>thence to the Gulf.  Although once again that route may be fit only for
>>a canoe.  Anybody know for sure?
>
>Yes, this is good for relatively large, crud resistant boat hulls.
>I suggested this route to Ray.  Many make this loop-- my next door neighbor
>for one.  Seems, however, that the Ohio R. is paramount to Ray's itinerary.
>
>My neighbor did it once in his 32' sailboat, nows plans to repeat it
>this spring in a 35' trawler. 


What did he do with his sailboat's mast? Or did he have to? I seem to 
recall that the segment through Chicago, at least, has some rather low 
bridges, but I can't recall whether they open or not. If they do, is it 
only at certain hours?

--Michael Smith

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski)
Subject: Re: Chicago Boat Show
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 22:42:18 GMT

In article <lkrvorINNjf6@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> billc@sextant.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>In article 080193092154@bwalker.qualcomm.com, wwalker@qualcomm.com (Bill Walker) writes:
>> 
>> 4) The boat has an open transom.  Handy for swimming, great for cockpit
>> draining, but I wouldn't have one.  I have a child to keep aboard.  I've
>> seen these on a number of boats lately, and I don't understand the purpose.
>>  Perhaps somebody can enlighten me.  It seems to me it could be quite
>> dangerous in a following sea.
>
>Open transoms are light, and light ends reduce pitching.
>(Then why aren't there open bows?  ;-) Open transoms
>drain flooded cockpits _fast_.  A net might be sufficient
>to keep the child (dog, beercan) aboard.
>
>BILL COURINGTON
>

To be eligible for MORA events, boats must be able to drain 
their cockpits within a certain required time. In practice, 
the only way to achieve this is by having an open transom. I 
agree that a simple net arrangement would work, unless the 
child is really small.


Stefan

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski)
Subject: Nautical book alert
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 01:34:26 GMT


[I apologize if this posting goes beyond the San Francisco Bay
 Area. My mailer doesn't always do what I ask.]

I was browsing in Carroll's Books on Church Street (near 24th)
the other day. Jim maintains a very good stock of out-of-print 
nauticals - the best in the Bay Area. These days, the selection 
seems to be particularly good. In my own area of interest
-the last square-rigged ships- I noticed several volumes that
are almost impossible to find, for example:

"A Century and a Quarter of Reederei Ferdinand Leisz" 
 A generously illustrated semi-official history of the greatest
 fleet of commercial square-riggers in history: the famous
 "flying P-liners" of Hamburg - Preussen, Potosi, Peking, 
 Passat, Priwall, etc. (in 1938[sic] Priwall set the record 
 for the fastest rounding of Cape Horn)  Published in the 50s 
 by J. Ferrel  Colton, a windjammer expert from Flagstaff, Arizona.

"The Life and Death of the Duchess" by Pamela Eriksson
 An interesting, if highly biased, account of the last voyage 
 of the lovely 4-masted barque "Herzogin Cecilie" which
 ended with a spectacular smash-up on the Devon coast in 1936.
 Pamela E. married the controversial skipper just before the
 hawser came aboard. Among other goodies, the book includes 
 a unique photo in the square-rigged canon: a snapshot of the
 authoress reclining, fully nude, on a lawn chair behind the 
 poopdeck charthouse (dorsal view).

"Heavenly Hell" by ? Sheridan
 This is one of the better Grain Race books. The author sailed
 as an apprentice in the famous bald-headed barque "Lawhill" 
 ("Bracewinch" Jarvis's old ship) from Australia to the Channel 
 for orders. The title says it all. Great photos.

Other fine books I noticed: "The Tall Voyagers" by Claire Rankin,
"Masting and Rigging" by Underhill (excellent drawings in this one) 
and a veryfine early edition of Lubbock's classic "The Last of the 
Windjammers" (the quality of the photographs is considerably worse
in modern reprints).


Stefan
From: roy@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: New AC Rules
Date: 6 Jan 1993 00:42:05 GMT
Organization: New York University, School of Medicine
NNTP-Posting-Host: mchip00.med.nyu.edu

bartley@spss.com (Dennis Bartley) writes:
->>How about reimposing the requirement that all vessels travel to
->>the race course on their own bottoms?
->I believe the boats for A3 and Team DC were built back east (mostly 
->by Goetz in RI, though one of A3s was done in Utah),

Now that's what I'd like to see -- a boat that could get from Utah to San
Diego on it's own bottom!
-- 
Roy Smith <roy@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski)
Subject: And a buxom figurehead to go with it?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 22:03:11 GMT

Kept off the Bay by sloth and cold weather, I've been thinking
vaguely about installing a bowsprit/gennaker rig on my Olson 25.

Has anyone attempted such a thing on a boat of comparable size?
Have there been any relevant magazine articles? What are the
pros and cons? How would I spec the length of the spar and the
size of the sail?

I've been thinking about a roller-furling genny, too. I know that 
I would get booted out of the one-design races, but I haven't 
raced much this past year. I suppose I could always get a PHRF
certificate.

Stefan