From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:41:06 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To Bruce Krulwich:

 BK> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>> While it is easy to give modern renditions of a word without 
looking back at
>> antiquity as to the original meaning and purpose, i am dropping 
a couple of
>> logs onto the fire, so as to help others see what the true 
meaning of Almah
>> is.

 BK> "Without looking back at antiquity" ?!?

Yes, modern meanings are meaningless, unless taken within the context of the orginal autographs...
Meaning, you may not believe today what "Almah" meant 2,000 years ago, and that in no way invalidates its original intent or meaning.

 BK> Harvey then talks about the "coverup" of the fact that Jews 2000 
 BK> years ago believed in a virgin birth.

It is plain that the virgin Miriam, understood the proclamation and that she would be the virgin of the House of David to bring forth the Messiah.  Portions of this ceremony can still be seen in the Jewish Wedding ceremony, where the virgin, encompasses her betrothed at the wedding ceremony and circles him 3 or 7 times, while the scripture from Jer. 31:22 "How long wilt thou turn away coyly, o thou backsliding daughter?  For the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth; "a woman shall compass a man"  and


 this is within the context of the 
New Covenant that God proposes in Jer 31:31, to the house of Israel.

>> "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a child and his name 
shall be
>> called Immanuel (G-d with us)."

 BK> Proof tactic number one: proof by forceful assertion.

Interesting, no forceful assertions at all Bruce.  The name of the child is "Immanuel"  G-d with us"...    That is not assertions at all especially since
most exegetics by Rabbis that i have read said it was speaking of an event that happened in King Ahaz's day, except that the child they refer to was NEVER CALLED IMMANUEL.  To me that would be a forceful assertion.

 BK> BTW, can you tell me how you get the phrase "shall conceive" from 
 BK> the original Hebrew?  The Hebrew actually says "is pregnant" 
 BK> in the present tense.

Interesting...  i suppose you are speaking of the word "harah", which does mean
pregnant or conceive, 

However as you well know there is no present tense for the word "is" so that is a supposition on your part.  Everywhere in the Tanakh where the word harah is utilized is refers to pregnancy, or conception of notable peoples, who prophetically were the heirs of promise,  ie Gen 25:21, Rebekah was barren, and Isaac prayed for her to conceive (harah).

the Holy Scriptures published by the Hebrew Publishing company, refers the text as do ALL masoretic translations into english, as "shall conceive".

You are posting an assumption of modern scholarship that alleges that the phraseology of Isa 7:14 is found in the Ugaritic texts of UT16:nos 77,11,5,7, and that it is only a formula announcing the arrival of a royal heir to be born naturally.

In the Ugaritic passage often quoted, the term "hry" is not used at all.  The text does speak of a virgin "btlt" who will later bear a child naturally.  It is interesting to note that the Ugaritic line in poetic parallelism uses the word for VIRGIN congnate to the Hebrew word "alma".  The announcement is similiar to GBen 16:11 addressed to Hagar who had conceived and was pregnant.  As far s the grammar goes, this could refer to a pregnant virgin either comtemporary or in the future.  But the reference to v


irginity shows that the pregnancy is miraculous... (quoted from theological word book of the Old Testament...

 BK> Now we get Harvey's quote from the Talmud:

>> The below quotes are taken from the English folio edition of 
the Talmud vol
>> ii p 386...

 BK> Sorry, but can you please give a real citation to the Talmud?  

Sorry copied the wrong reference..  The references are to a 15th century Talmud, that is in Aramaic, and Hebrew... and was not translated into english.

The talmudic quotes are references to R.Yoden, R.Berachiah,kR. Simeon Ben Yochai, on Genesis, Psalm CX, Zechariah, 

They are in the process of being researched, however since this is info from Oxford University, and their Hebraic department, there is no reason to doubt the source, however we are doing ongoing research to be able to come up with the exact Talmudic quotes and exact places within the Talmud where they can be easily accessed...

The key phrases are:
"Truth shall spring out of the earth"
Upon Genesis "Ye have said (saith the Lord), We are orphans, bereaved of our father; such a one shall your Redeemer be, whom i shall give you"
Upon Zechariah "Behold my servant, whse name is Branch"
Upon Psalm CX "Thou art a priest after the order of Melchizedek".

Simeon Ben Yochai unpon Genesis  "That the Spirit, by the impulse of a mighty power, shall come forth of the womb, though shut up, that will become a mighty prince, the King Messiah".

 BK> So what do we see?  (1) The citation you give is nonsense, and 
 BK> (2) it appears that the quote doesn't exist in the Talmud.

Don't be so quick Bruce... As you know research is the key word and study...
you are wrong... Of course you also agree to that possibility. (grin)

 BK> Of course, I may be wrong.  Please give a real citation if you 
 BK> have it.  If you don't, please stop making up Talmud quotes.
 BK> 

No attempt is being made to make up anything Bruce, and i think you already know that... 
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