HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E George)
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:10:20 GMT

In article <92Dec13.224339est.47890@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu
(Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>This came up during a conversation with some friends and we don't know the
>answer. Has there ever been a war between two democratic countries?
>I don't want to start a debate on what a democracy is. Let's say it's
>something like those of the USA, France, Britain, etc.
This question may be of "theoretical interest" but it is not of practical
interest: in 1921 Germany, Britain, France, and Italy were all "democracies"
as most people tend to understand the term. Nineteen years later the first and
last were at war with the middle two.

So just because Country A and Country B happen to be democracies today
means nothing at all when asking if they will go to war in the future.

Unfortunately, you *have* started a debate on what a democracy is -- the
debate is implicit in your question. I would argue that Wilhelmine Germany
was a "democracy" in 1914:
          (1) elected legislature
          (2) semifree press
          (3) limited monarchy (at least relative to Tsarist Russia)
Yet it went to war with France.

Incidentally, a democracy is by definition merely a state in which the people
rule. The people may rule it in a totalitarian, racist, or aggressive manner.

Robert George
(speaking only for myself)

"The very essence of individual freedom is equal justice under a rule of
law, a law to which every man shall be subject and which no executive
can modify."
    Senator Robert Taft , March 11, 1944
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Michael Erskine)
Subject: A question: what means GI?
Originator: erskine@hphalle6e.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:52:46 GMT


Hi,

 whenever I hear or read the word "GI" I wonder what it stands
for. I guess it's an abbreviation, but for what? My "Oxford Advanced
Learner's Dictionairy" couldn't help me, it's only comment is 
"enlisted soldier". Well, that's what I knew before - but for
what is it an abbreviation????


               Michi
               (erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE)
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: monsourc@dent.uchicago.edu (Christopher Monsour)
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, U. of Chicago
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:29:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.143842.9822@news.acns.nwu.edu> dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Douglas Meier) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.075904.8431@midway.uchicago.edu> bitn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec14.060817.3986@news.acns.nwu.edu> dmeier@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Douglas Meier) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec14.035606.29927@midway.uchicago.edu> bitn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>>In article <92Dec13.224339est.47890@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>>>>>This came up during a conversation with some friends and we don't know the 
>>>>>answer. Has there ever been a war between two democratic countries?  
>>>>>I don't want to start a debate on what a democracy is. Let's say it's 
>>>>>something like those of the USA, France, Britain, etc. 
>>>>
>>>>Not counting technicalities, there has never been a war between two 
>>>>democracies, if you mean "democracy" in the modern sense of the word.
>>>>
>>>Democracy currently doesn't exist as a form of government.  Two democracies
>>>have gone to war in the past -- they were the Roman Empire and the Greek City
>>>States.
>>
>>That's why I said "in the modern sense of the word".  I don't think that he
>>meant a "pure democracy" like the Greek city-states.  And how can you call
>>the Roman Empire a democracy?  Julius Caesar was not the leader of a 
>>democratic state and after him, it was an oligarchy.  At exactly what
>>time would you call the Roman empire a democracy??
>>
>Well, you mentioned the era of Julius Caesar and the era after Julius Caesar. 
>Three guesses as to the time period you haven't mentioned yet.

Well, if you meant the Roman Republic (which you obviously did), then you
shouldn't have said "the Roman Empire."  (You might correct me on this, but
was the Roman _Empire_ ever at war with the Greek city-states?)

It seems to me that if we mean democracy in the modern sense (and universal
suffrage is hardly a prerequisite--otherwise those Greek city-states would not
have been democracies), then possibly the War of 1812 and certainly the
American Civil War were wars between democracies.

                                      Christopher J. Monsour
                                      monsourc@zaphod.uchicago.edu


Newsgroups: alt.war
From: bitn@quads.uchicago.edu (nathan elery bitner)
Subject: Re: War&Democracy
Reply-To: bitn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:18:49 GMT

In article <cf=_udS00WB885838O@andrew.cmu.edu> James William Stepanek <js43+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>People always love to claim that there have never been wars between two
>democracies,orry not quite true. Two off the top of my head are Turkey and
>Greece over Cypruss, and pick any given India - Pakistan conflict. There are
>undoubtedly more if you look , these are just the easy ones.
>James Stepanek
>esp

So now it's not democracy we have to set the criteria for; it's "war."  I
don't believe Greek regulars and Turkish regulars ever clashed in Cyprus.
Greek fighters there were irregulars (I'm fairly sure) supported by Athens.
There was no other points of conflict, so were Turkey and Greece really at
war?  Or was it, rather, Greek  Cypriots vs. Turkish Cypriots?  I think you'll
probably find it to be the latter, so this one doesn't count.  India vs.
Pakistan over Kashimir presents an interesting case, though.  Does anyone
know whether these states were democracies "in the modern sense of the word" 
at the time?

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                         INTER ARMA SILENT LEGES                      |
| "Worship Ditka NOW."                email:  bitn@midway.uchicago.edu |
|______________________________________________________________________| 
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: shoham@ll.mit.edu (Daniel Shoham)
Subject: Re: War&Democracy
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 04:13:12 GMT

In article <cf=_udS00WB885838O@andrew.cmu.edu> James William Stepanek <js43+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>People always love to claim that there have never been wars between two
>democracies,orry not quite true. Two off the top of my head are Turkey and
>Greece over Cypruss, and pick any given India - Pakistan conflict. There are
>undoubtedly more if you look , these are just the easy ones.
>James Stepanek
>esp


Sorry, no cigar. While democracies (more or less) today, and intermitently so
since independence, you will find that during the fighting stage of each of
the above conflicts at least one of the combatent was not a democracy. 

Turkey (a questionable democracy at the time) did not fight Greece (ruled by
a state of emergency at the time), but a Greek inspired Junta in Cyprus.

The Indian-Pakistani conflicts (several) occured when one or both where under
a non-democratic status.


There are many examples before (and some during) WW-II of democracies fighting
other democracies - BUT *none* since!


Here is a followup question:
----------------------------
Did a democracy ever *lose* a border war (not a power projection, or "colonial"
war - like Vietnam or Algeria) since WW-II. Lets say "losing" means a relevent
loss of territory when fighing is stopped (not necessarily the final border). I
don't think there is any such case - but I'm not sure. (Croatia perhaps - a
little fuzzy on the Democracy question, on the losing question, and on the
wether it is over question)


Dan Shoham               shoham@ll.mit.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The view presented are not necessarily those of my employer, etc.

Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lincoln Laboratory
244 Wood Street
Lexington Massachusetts, 02173-9108
Office B-373
617-981-3515
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.war
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:10:28 -0500 
From: Patrick Pearse Gallagher <pg23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
	<1992Dec14.075904.8431@midway.uchicago.edu>
Distribution: na

Wasn't the City of Rome, before they started conquering everyone, ruled
by a democracy?  

Empire, by definition, is ruled by an emporer, which implies total rule.

But we didn't want to get into semantics...:-)


This is a cool board. I just discovered it.


One thing I was discussing the  other day.  Why do you suppose the
American military has been so successful?  We also know that the Israeli
military has been very  successful.  A hypothesis with nothing to back
it up: Maybe both are successful because they both let immigrants from
such a wide variety of places in(until recently in US)  Israel has open
immigration for all Jews, and until 1969, the US was open to just about
everyone.(date could be off).  Does anyone have any clue what the
kill-ratio has been for modern Israel?  I heard it was some outrageous
number, but can't verify it.

	Some more thoughts:  On a war simulator game, Shadow President, my
friend tried invading Mexico.  He racked up a 10 to 1 kill ratio, and it
took 2 weeks to bring them to their knees.
	How long do you think it would take us to defeat a Canada or Mexico in
a real conventional war.  Keep in mind that the US would be the
agressor, and we'd have to contend with just about everyone on earth
defending them.  Yeah, I know it would never happen, just imagine.
--Patrick
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)
Subject: Re: A question: what means GI?
Organization: INEL EG&G Idaho
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 15:03:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.115246.302@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE>, erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Michael Erskine) writes:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
>  whenever I hear or read the word "GI" I wonder what it stands
> for. I guess it's an abbreviation, but for what? My "Oxford Advanced
> Learner's Dictionairy" couldn't help me, it's only comment is 
> "enlisted soldier". Well, that's what I knew before - but for
> what is it an abbreviation????
> 
> 
>                Michi
>                (erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE)
> 
> 

It was something the US soldiers started calling themselves because all of 
their equipment and clothing had it stamped on it.

It stands for "Government Issue".

Don Palmrose




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and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:21:40 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <105029@bu.edu>, eschwepp@butyng.bu.edu (Edmund Schweppe) writes:
> In article <1992Dec14.035606.29927@midway.uchicago.edu> bitn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <92Dec13.224339est.47890@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>>>This came up during a conversation with some friends and we don't know the 
>>>answer. Has there ever been a war between two democratic countries?  
>>>I don't want to start a debate on what a democracy is. Let's say it's 
>>>something like those of the USA, France, Britain, etc. 
>>Not counting technicalities, there has never been a war between two 
>>democracies, if you mean "democracy" in the modern sense of the word.
> 
> How about the War of 1812?
> 
> Or the American Civil War, for that matter?
> 
> Ed Schweppe - no useful .sig this time
> 

I'd say that it is a mistake to call the US circa 1812 a democracy. Yesterday,
we just had the election of our president by the Electoral College. In 1812
few if any states elected their Electors by popular vote. In the election
of 1800 the number of eligable voters (for state offices) in New York State 
was roughly 1000. I think it is only fair to say the US was a "republic". 
I believe the government in 1812 England was even less democratic.

I would argue that the Americal Civil War was the *ONLY* war waged between 
two democratically elected governments (but even that statement ignores the
fact that South Carolina and Mississippi were what we would call "white
minority governments" not to mention the lack of sufferage by women).

- Paul - 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   "I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic and a rodeo, but
                that's the stupidest thing I ever heard..."_Dr.Strangelove_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: elliott@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com (Elliott Kleinrock)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Re:War&Democracy
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:02:16 GMT
Organization: Olivetti Advanced Finance Development

In article <cf=_udS00WB885838O@andrew.cmu.edu> js43+@andrew.cmu.edu (James William Stepanek) writes:
>People always love to claim that there have never been wars between two
>democracies,orry not quite true. Two off the top of my head are Turkey and
>Greece over Cypruss, and pick any given India - Pakistan conflict. There are
>undoubtedly more if you look , these are just the easy ones.
>James Stepanek
>esp

How about the USA and the CSA (Confederate States of America).

	- Elliott

	elliott@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com
	...!{ philabs | yale | oliveb | decvax | iscuva }!oliafd!elliott
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: bitn@quads.uchicago.edu (nathan elery bitner)
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Reply-To: bitn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:56:06 GMT

In article <92Dec13.224339est.47890@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>This came up during a conversation with some friends and we don't know the 
>answer. Has there ever been a war between two democratic countries?  
>I don't want to start a debate on what a democracy is. Let's say it's 
>something like those of the USA, France, Britain, etc. 

Not counting technicalities, there has never been a war between two 
democracies, if you mean "democracy" in the modern sense of the word.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                         INTER ARMA SILENT LEGES                      |
| "Worship Ditka NOW."                email:  bitn@midway.uchicago.edu |
|______________________________________________________________________| 
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: davei@wam.umd.edu (The One True Dave)
Subject: Re: A question: what means GI?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:10:17 GMT

In article <92Dec16.105038est.123@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.115246.302@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Michael Erskine) writes:
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>> whenever I hear or read the word "GI" I wonder what it stands
>>for. I guess it's an abbreviation, but for what? My "Oxford Advanced
>>Learner's Dictionairy" couldn't help me, it's only comment is 
>>"enlisted soldier". Well, that's what I knew before - but for
>>what is it an abbreviation????
>>
>>
>>               Michi
>>               (erskine@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE)
>
>
>"Government Issue"  
>


I always thought it was "General Infantry."

You learn something new every day.
From: CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Christopher L Frame)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Re:War&Democracy
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:58:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Dec16.190855.601@cine88.cineca.it> michele@deis21.cineca.it writes:

> In article <elliott.42@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com>, elliott@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com (Elliott Kleinrock) writes:
> |> In article <cf=_udS00WB885838O@andrew.cmu.edu> js43+@andrew.cmu.edu (James William Stepanek) writes:
> |> >People always love to claim that there have never been wars between two
> |> >democracies,orry not quite true. Two off the top of my head are Turkey and
> |> >Greece over Cypruss, and pick any given India - Pakistan conflict. There are
> |> >undoubtedly more if you look , these are just the easy ones.
> |> >James Stepanek
> |> >esp
> 
> It is quite difficult to consider such countries as full democracies they 
> are a mixture of military/economic/racial/religious oligarchies.  
> Democracy is not only when the government is elected by the majority of people. 


	True, democracy is a jumble of things.  Don't forget that the President
of the USA isn't elected by the majority of the population.  The Pres is
elected by the electoral reps - they overrule the population.  Some democracy,
huh!?!  I don't thing ANY country is a "full" democracy.  Can anyone name one?

	Personally, I prefer dictatorships - democracy is inefficient.

C Frame

> 
> 
> |> 
> |> How about the USA and the CSA (Confederate States of America).
> |> 
> 
> I don't know nothing on the political institutions of CSA, more infos are welcome 
> 
> |> 	- Elliott
> |> 
> |> 	elliott@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com
> |> 	...!{ philabs | yale | oliveb | decvax | iscuva }!oliafd!elliott
> 
> 
> Michele Favalli 
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Greg )
Subject: Re: War & Democracy
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:37:07 GMT

quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:

>This came up during a conversation with some friends and we don't know the 
>answer. Has there ever been a war between two democratic countries?  
>I don't want to start a debate on what a democracy is. Let's say it's 
>something like those of the USA, France, Britain, etc.
                             ^^^
Please let me clear something up here.  The US is/was NEVER a Democracy.
Our form of government is known as a Republic.  I challenge you to find
our nation described as a Democray in the Constitution. 

The notion of a Republic is that it is representative.  In other words,
we elect officials in hopes that they act as we would like them to.

I know that I was a little nit-picky here, but the term "Democracy" is 
misused too often.


*******************************************************************************
* Gregory Tao                      | E-mail to:  gt38091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     * 
* Univ. of IL at Urbana-Champaign  |        OR      gtao@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* Department of Computer Science   |        OR      gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
*                                                                             *
*  	``Change, suddenly, is everywhere we look, sweeping empires and       *
*    ideologies before it, shaping a new era even as we watch. Such moments   *
*    are rare. Today we stand at such a moment.''                             * 
*                                                                             *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* DISCLAIMER:  My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of CCSO or the    *
*              University of Illinois.					      *
*******************************************************************************
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: European Intervention (speculation)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:41:51 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <1992Dec18.081919.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> 
  cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:
>
>I am obviously not a historian, but it seems to me that speculation about 
>alternative courses of events could be more than "fun" or "grist for novels".
>The people who lived through those events had to act upon their own 
>speculation on the future consequenses. Our speculation on alternative
>histories seems (to me) to be a useful mechanism for understanding these 
>decisions. 
>
>On the other hand, saying, "if such-and-such, then so-and-so..... and Bill 
>Clinton would now be president elect of the CSA," (as I admit to having done)
>is so obviously silly that it is only done for fun. ;-)

Mackinlay Kantor, who wrote "Andersonville", also wrote a short alternate
history "If the South had won the Civil War".  He has the war being
won by the South when U.S. Grant is killed by being thrown from his horse
at the siege of Vicksburg, when Lee decisively wins at Gettysburg, and
when Early (after Gettysburg) captures Washington (including Lincoln).
The Confeds. get to keep Washington, the new capital of the Union is 
established in Columbus OH.  Texas secedes from the CSA and takes the
Indian Territory with it.  In short all a lot of speculative fun.

The problem in the book occurs when Kantor starts describing events
after about 1890.  He has a Spanish-Confederate War in 1898, all three
republics (USA, CSA, and Tex) enter WWI (which occurs on schedule in 1914),
etc.  That's the part that is dissappointing (and which ties in with what
Paul says).  The alternate history doesn't happen in a vaccuum, there
are other events which depend on and in turn affect yet others.  Like a
weather prediction, the plausibility of the predictions of alternate
histories drop rapidly as one projects farther into the future-- beyond
twenty years, it is pure fiction.

--
Justin M. Sanders    
Dept. of Physics     "I could not fail to disagree with you less."
Kansas State Univ.                           -- Gabriel Weinreich