HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: turnera@hubcap.clemson.edu (Allen Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 788
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:21:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: hubcap.1992Oct9.131807.15895
Organization: Clemson University

ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:

#In article <1992Oct5.143633.17004@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
##The Remington 788 is one of those designs (by Mike Walker, I believe)
##where inexpensive translated into simple and quick rather than
##cheesy and flakey.  It has absolutely no relationship to any other
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
##Remington rifle.  It is a rear-locking-lug rifle, which is not
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
##normally a great thing, but it has 9 locking lugs and a very herky
##cylindrical receiver, so it works out fine.
##
#[deleted]
##

I believe that statement is incorrect.  The current Remington bolt action
22's are essentially scaled down versions of the 788.  They are rear-locking
lug with I believe 6 locking lugs...I understand that they also share the
fast lock time and poor trigger of the 788.  The models, today, are the
581S (Sportsman, cheap stock and unpolished metal) and the 580T (?) (Nice
checkered stock and polished metal).  I own one of the 581S's...havn't shot
it enough to get a good handle on the accuracy, however, it's more accurate
than the parallax of my scope would allow.

581's cost about $150 while the 580T's cost about $300.  I got mine on sale
for $113 about a year and a half ago.

Allen Turner
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Commercial 9x18 Makarov
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:17:38 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <9210141804.AA04947@leland.Stanford.EDU> by loia@leland.Stanford.EDU (David Loia):

# Is there a commercial manufacturer of JHP in 9x18mm Makarov ?
# 
# I am looking for more choices in ammo other than Norinco
# FMJ ammo for this overlooked caliber.

Try Hanson.  They make a wide variety of pistol and rifle ammo, including one
or more types of 9x18.  I believe it's Yugoslav made, at least a lot of it is.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 12 guage recoil: how to limit?
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:58:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: beta.9210151518.AA27735
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <1992Oct14.140809.25296@ke4zv.uucp> you write:
= 
= In the don't try this at home category, I find that even the lightest
= 12 gauge loaded with magnum buckshot can be fired with one hand, not
= shouldered, with no pain and no strain. Shotgun recoil is highly
= overrated. If your shotgun *fits* properly, all you should feel is
= a "push" against your body when you fire. If the gun bruises you,
= it doesn't fit.

I suggest that this, and the somewhat less awkward variant where
the gun is held with both hands but not shouldered, actually
*minimizes* the perception of recoil and, therefore, that applying
the principles involved to normal shooting will assist all of the
other things that were described in reducing felt recoil.

I believe that the reason that this is true is that the gun is not
rigidly restrained when held this way.  Instead, the arm (or arms
in my variant) support it but allow it to move under the influence
of recoil.  Thus, the arms act as a combination spring and spring
damper.  If when you shoot your shotgun (or rifle, for that matter)
your body is relaxed enough to provide the same behavior, felt
recoil for that gun/load combination will be minimized.  The secret
is to *not* brace against the expected recoil but, rather, to allow
your spine to act as a leaf spring.  When the gun is discharged,
allow it to push your upper body back with just enough resistance
to act as a spring & damper.  Allow your back to arch slightly under
the influence of the push of the butt stock.  As the recoil
subsides, the slight resistance will push the gun bact to shooting
position and straighten your back once more.

Consider this thought experiment.

	Imaginary supplies needed:

		A rigid vertical support such as a concrete wall.

		A flexible, springy, vertical support such as the
		blade of a hand saw.

		Some objects that are readily crushable such as
		grapes.
	
	Thought experiment begins:

		(Needless to say all normal safety procedures to be
		followed.)

		Load a round in your shotgun.

		Place one of the grapes between the heel of the
		stock and the concrete wall, holding the shotgun
		gently in position.

		Fire.

		Clamp the spring device (hand-saw blade, what have
		you) in a vice.

		Load a round in your shotgun.

		Place another grape between the heel of the stock
		and the saw blade/spring, holding the shotgun
		gently in position.

		Fire.
	
	Which grape was squashed?

If your body behaves more like that springy saw-blade than like the
concrete wall, your perception of recoil will be less.  "Be a
willow, not an oak."


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: betz%gozer@uunet.UU.NET (Andrew Betz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: seeking ffl's in idaho
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:59:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: guinness.1992Oct15.183442.20109
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club

i'm interested in finding an ffl in or near boise, idaho for future gun 
purchases.  the gun stores here as a rule have prices that are pretty high
(e.g., new sig p226 $700).  i'm interested in pointers to folks
who will receive them for a nominal fee (e.g. $20) over cost.
i've been saving my coinage fot that p7m8, but i don't want to
pay full-pop retail (youch!).  any info would be appreciated
(email).

thanks,

drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CCW Requirements, Ohio
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:20:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Oct9.005019.21311
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

In article <9210081902.AA12622@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
#In article <1992Oct8.150946.7006@icd.ab.com> kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
##Can anybody give me the lowdown on what's required to get a CCW
##in Ohio?
#
#There is no statewide licensing system in Ohio. Some localities may
#have their own licenses and may or may not give you one depending on
#who you talk to. It may be or may not be illegal to carry in Ohio,
#again, depending on who you talk to.

I've never ever seen a substantiated claim for civilians to be able
to carry concealed legally in Ohio.  State law trumps local law, and
state law says you cannot ccw unless you provide an affirmative defense.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Matt Helms
Date: 11 Oct 92 15:36:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Oct11.134117.16337
Organization: North Carolina State University


  There has been some discussion of the realistic depiction of
firearms in the Matt Helms novels.  Another aspect of these
novels which I've noticed is the emphasis placed on proper
entry through a doorway.  This has come to my mind now that 
I'm reading an interesting book:

The Tactical Edge
Surviving High-Risk Patrol
Charles Remsberg

which is by the author of "STREET SURVIVAL: Tactics for
Armed Encounters" (which I read and reviewed some time ago) and
which I'll review when I'm finished.  (I think that they are
both police textbooks.)

  This book has a *lot* to say about how to go through a
doorway - and how *not* to go through a doorway (with many
gory descriptions of officers being shot as a result of a
poor choice of entry methods and procedures.  There is a long
chapter (76 pages) on "Building Searches" with diagrams of
floor plans, photos of what can be seen through the door, and
analyses of entry choices to be made and of other choices of
tactics.  From a tactical view it seems to take at least 2
coordinated people to do a decent job (with respect to their
own safety) of clearing a building.  After reading this, it is 
obvious why defense experts discourage the resident in a defense
situation from trying to clear a building.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dot Sights
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:58:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: ariel.15OCT199209151732
Organization: who knows

I am seeking recommendations for a dot sight, method of mounting and brand
of mount to be installed on a Springfield M1911A1 .45 cal pistol.  This pistol
will be used for NRA-style target shooting.

Right now I am leaning towards a Laseraim Illusion dot scope and the 
Weigan/Caspian frame mount.  

I heard that several target shooters use the Illusion but I do not know why; it
may be the low price, $100.  Are the Tasco Propoint, Aimpoint, or Ultra Dot any
better?  I would like to use a 30mm scope but from the little that I've read,
the 30mm scope usually have large dots, i.e. 10 minutes, and I would like a dot
not much larger than 3 minutes.  Is this impression of 30mm scopes true? 

The Weigan/Caspian mount is not cheap, $100.  I've heard that target shooters
do not like the grip mounts.  One version of the Weigan/Caspian mount requires
drilling and tapping of 10 holes! This is also not cheap. This version has a
base for Weaver-style rings; another version has an integral 30mm ring. This
mount also requires the removal of the rear iron sight.  It would be nice to
keep the irons but if it must go, I am willing to do so. Any recommendation
on scope mounts?
From: kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:21:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: flubber.9210091456.AA13379
Organization: Informatik Club Uni Zurich

In article <9209261635.AA29291@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi) writes:
###Seriously, the Glock 10mm is nice, I only wish it had a standard
###exposed hammer and a manual safety or de-cocker.
##
##I don't understand your preference for an exposed hammer.
##As near as I can tell, what you really prefer is a totally
##different operating system, like the traditional M1911A1.
##These features make no sense for the Glock "Safe Action"
##operating system.
#
#Exactly.  But there's more to a gun, even a Glock, than its operating
#system.  One could admire the Glock's great strength, its superb
#
#If you take a Glock and replace its Safe-Action operating system with a
#squeeze cocker ala H&K, it's still a Glock; i.e. it still has all the
#other features of a Glock, but it's a bit safer in practice since you
#can make it "safe."  Ditto with simply giving it a frame-mounted safety.
#The latter shouldn't be too difficult an engineering problem, and one
#could always choose to ignore it in use, leaving him with the original
#Glock operating system.  It'd certainly ease a lot of minds unaccustomed
#to the thought of holstering  what essentially acts as a Condition
#Zero piece.  If I recall correctly, this was Massad Ayoob's only beef
#with the Glock.
#
well, i just got a good deal on a glock 20. as much as i like the gun
and ciliber, i must admit that i still have to overcome that strange
feeling of having a condition zero gun in my holster. really is strange.

oh, btw, i decided to make the 20 my primary carry gun, after using a
sig 226, mainly due to the 10mm advantage (or disadvantage? no flame
please :-) )


cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz		Home:		(+41) 061 721 75 56 (Weekends)
P.O. Box 315		Business:	(+41) 01  261 35 74 (Weekdays)
4106 Therwil		Fax:		(+41) 061 324 71 88
Switzerland		E-Mail:		pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: bluemoon!miller@gator.rn.com (John Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CCW Requirements, Ohio
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:23:40 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

#    I've been looking for some real ammo for my Makarov.  I recently heard fro
# a net-er that the 9x18 Police/Ultra is supposed to work in them except that h
# hadn't seen any real ammo (JHP and such like) in the 9x18 Police/Ultra.  Does
# anybody know if the mythical good ammo exist for this round (FMJ is all that
# I've ever been able to get ahold of and I'm skeptical of it's stopping
# ability).
# 
This brings up a question I have:

I am interested in starting to reload.  I really like the 9x18 guns, and 
might buy one.  My question:  Can I cut down 9mm brass and load my own 
9x18's?  If so, how much work is it to resize the brass, and can I use 
standard 9mm bullets.

Thanks for you patience w/ a reloading newbie.

/**************
** John Miller
** miller@bluemoon.use.com
** 76467.1465@compuserve.com
**************/
From: dd908821@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Douglas Deden)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Hoppe's # 9
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:05:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: yuma.9210142040.AA08380
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College


-- 

A while back, someone asked about health hazards relating to
Hoppe's #9 Nitro Powder Solvent.  Someone else recommended
writing to the manufacturer for a Material Safety Data Sheet.
I thought it sounded like a good idea, and so I did.  I
received it yesterday, and here are the main points.


Use gloves.
Wear goggles/glasses.
Don't drink it.
Work in a well-ventialted area.
Don't smoke.
Keep away from heat, sparks, open flame and oxidizers.
Not classified as a carcinogen by IARC, NTP, or OSHA.



That's basically it.  If anybody wants more information, let
me know and I'll send you a copy.  


Doug Deden
Civil Engineering Department
Colorado State University
dd908821@longs.lance.colostate.edu
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: States Granting Nonresident CCWs?
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:20:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: chpc.1992Oct8.203008.18222
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#Massachusetts, which has a very restrictive permit system, has an
#exception clause for law enforcement officers.  I don't know exactly
#how it's worded, but it *does not* specify that said officer need have
#any jurisdiction in the state of Massachussetts.  Any law enforcement
#officer in the Galaxy can carry a concealed firearm in MA.

Not entirely true - I don't remember the exact exemption, but it is not
blanket permission for any law enforcement officer to carry when not
on official business.

Also, MGL 140/131G allows persons licensed in states other than Massachusetts,
or law enforcement officers authorized to carry a gun in another state, to
posess handguns in Mass for competetive use wihtout need for a permit.
It hardly seems like this exemption would have explicitly included LE types 
if they had blanket carry authority.

Rob
From: nick@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Nick Leiterman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Spent brass lead hazard... test kit found lead
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:55:38 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle


How much lead does it take to be a hazard.
I think the hazard of lead paint was from children
eating the paint chips not handling them.

why dont you run your hands through the brass
and then test your hand for lead.

I think the acceptable concentration of lead 
is much lower for handling it than for eating it.

Anyway a good handwash is probably not a bad idea.

Nick Leiterman
Kent Washington
nick@bcstec.ca.boeing.com

-- 
     Nick Leitermann
     Seattle Washington
     nick@bcstec.boeing.com
From: tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loaded Clips
Date: 17 Oct 92 00:15:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Oct16.220304.11344
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <1992Oct13.164417.2940@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes:

#Not according to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office and
#West's ANNOTATED California Penal Code.  The LA DA's office referred
#me to the Wests for complete listing of applicatble court
#interperatation of the Penal Code 12031.  Both the DA and West's agree
#that a loaded magazine is the same as a loaded weapon.  Indeed, one
#court ruled that loose ammunition in the same container was equivalent
#to loaded weapon.  Another decision ruled that if the ammunition was
#still in the factory's original box, then it was not a loaded firearm.
#In the case of court decisions, you pays your money and takes your
#chances.


	If you have any actual case citations, I'd be very interested
in learning what they are. Following your message, I checked with Paul
Bishop, #2 person at CA DOJ, and his reading and understanding of the
statute is consistent with my post. Then I checked new cases and
advance sheets at the law library and found nothing such as you
describe. Frequently folks without legal training misread and/or
misunderstand cases they read, this is quite common among law
enforcement, for example. So, it you'd provide the cites, I'll take a
look at them and get back to you. Thanks
-- 
     Peter Alan Kasler                            Fax: 707-939-8684
     Threat Management Institute                Voice: 707-939-0303
     800 West Napa Street                     TMI BBS: 707-935-1713
     Sonoma, CA  95476                     Internet: tmi@netcom.com

[MODERATOR:  Offline, perhaps?  With a summarizing report back here
once you hash it out? Thanks  .... ]
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Calibers for Long Distance Shooting
Date: 7 Oct 92 13:00:15 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <2OCT199208315216@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#In article <dlamber-300992235106@m248-99.bgsu.edu>, dlamber@andy.bgsu.edu (Don Lambert) writes...
##I still think for the money .308 Win is an excellent cartridge for 1000
##yards. You can build on any type of reciever ( Long/Short ) , brass is
##cheap and Serria makes a great 155gr BTHP for it.
#
#If you read through the reloading section of the Sierra manual on rifle, they
#mention the 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 308 Norma Mag and the .30-338 as very
#good 1000 yd bench and target calibers.
#

I'd also add the less common .300 H&H, .300 Weatherby Mag., and 7mm 
Weatherby Mag. to that same list. 

Additionally, some possibilities for longer ranges (depending on the
range and the application) might include .264 Winchester Mag., and
.338 Winchester. The overbore .300s have the best track record as
far as I know for 1,000 match style shooting (Camp Perry? the "Leech
Cup"? Is this where I'm remembering this from?). 


-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: mailrus!gatech!fisher.eedsp.gatech.edu!tucker@uunet.UU.NET (Jeff Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reloading advice needed
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:20:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: ee.1992Oct8.195845.2690
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

I had some questions about reloading, and thought I'd turn to the
net for advice.

Right now, I shoot only one caliber, 40 S&W, and that isn't likely
to change very soon.  I'm interested in the economic aspects of
reloading small quantities for my own use.

How long does it take to offset the initial costs of reloading 
equipment?  I'm talking about minimalist stuff, probably adequate
for 100-200 rounds a month, max.  I'm not a real big shooter right
now.  (But, if it weren't so expensive I might get that way.)

I'd be interested in hearing what the startup costs are for equipment
like a press and measures or whatever, and also the recurring costs
for things like primers and powder.  I'm interested only in short range
target work and nothing competitive right now, so I don't need the
most expensive of anything.  Just the plinker stuff.

Thanks in advance for all the help.

Jeff
-- 
---------------------------
Jeff Tucker                         N9HZQ, EMT-A
tucker@eedsp.gatech.edu             Graduate Student, Electrical Engineering
May all your throws be bulls!       Georgia Institute of Technology
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Children and toy guns...
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:54:19 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <9210021808.AA00266@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
#
#I also feel that toy guns are a Bad Idea(tm), in that kids playing with
#them learn (mostly from TV and movies) bad habits of usage, and are
#desensitized to the notion that you *never* point a firearm at anything
#that you're not willing to destroy.  Almost all of their observed play
#violates good, safe gun use practise.

	I tend to agree with this.  A good example of same lies in learning
	swordsmanship.  I was taught to use a live blade in all training
	where blades did not clash (we're talking expensive Japanese blades),
	the reason being that excessive use of wooden swords tends to foster
	(in a passive way) sloppy handling of the real thing.  I've known
	more than one instance of persons cutting themselves savagely on
	the razor sharp blades, often by cutting through the scabbard when
	drawing the sword in a sloppy manner.
	
	This is clearly applicable to firearms, perhaps even more so.  I feel
	this is especially so if they have not been given strong training
	with teh real thing FIRST.

	I was a teacher for several years in NYC, and while training to become
	same, we were taught that when you teach kids how to do something,
	you often teach them what NOT to do as well.  While this can be an
	effective teaching aid, you MUST ALWAYS teach them the RIGHT way FIRST.
	If you teach them the wrong way first, this is what will stick and it
	will take great effort to break them of a bad learning.

	So if you choose to let little Johnny or Janey have a toy gun, do so
	only after having given them a full background in the safe and proper
	handling of the real item.  To do anything less for them would be to
	be derelict in your duty to you children as a parent IMNSHO.

	Rant mode off.  So sorry.

	-Andy V.


#
#Mine have all started with air rifle target shooting, and after formal
#classroom instruction regarding safety, added pistol and rifle skills.
#
#We have fun, we observe safe practice, and the local urchins think my
#son is a bit of a crank on the subject...but they play along while he's
#around.
#
#--
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
#                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: MASSACHUSETTS MACHINE GUN GREEN CARD
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:15:34 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Does anyone out there have a Massachusetts Machine Gun Green Card, or
know someone who does?  I'm interested in the qualifications that are
typically required, or the best method to tickle the licensing authority
into issuing one.  (We're not talking about MA LTC's, but strictly MG
green cards.  Please list all requirements besides a LTC.)