From: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: Re: Diatribes of Mehul Sanghvi (Re:Hindu-Muslim violence)
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: /usr/ug/1993/msanghvi/.organization
	<1992Dec12.235339.45596@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:19:56 GMT



>>>>> "deb" == dchatterjee  <dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> writes:

deb> In article <MSANGHVI.92Dec9210114@cs.ulowell.edu>, msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu 
>(Mehul Sanghvi) writes:
> 
>................ (deleted) ...... The "Hindu revivalists" need to be taught a
> lesson.
>....... (deleted)......
> that the next time one of them comes up with a crazy idea like the
> Ayodhya-Babri Masjid thing they'll think twice before they go on the warpath. 
>
deb>  The author of the above article takes refuge in Hindu-bashing, IMHO. While it
deb>  is true that "Hindu fundamentalists" have started the bellicose patriotism, I
deb>  think that there is much more deeper truth than the one presented by the
deb>  author. To this end, Edward A.Gargan (NYT, correspondent in New Delhi) has made
deb>  the fundamental difference between the two warring factions pretty clear. I
deb>  would suggest the naive author (Mr.Sanghvi) to read the article that Mr.Gargan
deb>  has written in NYT, Dec. 12th issue, page A10. (The article is titled: The 
deb>  Hatreds of India.) Mr.Mehul Sanghvi would hopefully revise his standpoint - 
deb>  which is biased and thus his arguments are inept and amateurish.

I take to Hindu bashing on the incident in Ayodhya because the Hindus deserve
it on this one IMHO. As for the article in the NYT I'll get a copy of it and
read the aforementioned article. Thanks for the pointer.

deb> In the said article, the author interviews one Mr.Rasheeduddin Khan (the
deb>  director of Indian Insitute of Federal Studies and a former member of the
deb>  Upper House of the Parliament). Mr.Khan finally contends that it is *not*
deb>  possible to accept an amicable solution. The reason is that, as stated by
deb>Mr.Khan, that what is *most* abhorrent in Islam is considered as the normal
deb>practice for Hindus. (Idol worship). Moreover, Muslims in India are governed
deb> by laws of the Sharia while Hindus, Jews, Christians and other minorities
deb>   are subject to the Federal laws. The famous Shahbano case is a glaring
deb>example. Moreover, as the author (Gargan) contends, that Hindus for the past
deb>1000 years have seen demolition of their cultural existences. The author
deb>  makes a very apt statement: " .... For centuries after, Muslim invaders
deb>ruled large chunks of India, allying themselves with Hindus when convenient,
deb>obliterating Hindu influence when necessary."

I am very much aware of the Moghul Dynasty's rule.

deb> Mr.Sanghvi may of course have his own revelation of Indian history. The
deb> NYT article expresses exactly what a Hindu amongst (882 million) feels today
deb> about Muslims. " Many Hindus, probably a vast majority, think of themselves
deb> as a second class citizens in their own land, somehow shunted aside as the
deb> Muslims are granted as special privileges."

I probably do have more of a Western view of India's history then you do ( i
take it you went to high school in India. If i am wrong pls. correct me ) as I
was in a British educational system. But I always tried to find a history book
by an Indian author to supplement what I was taught in school. I wasn't always
succesfull. I don't doubt the statement that "many hindus feel like
second-class citizens" because I know it is a fact. My friends in India have
told me on more then one occasion that that is how they feel. But that doesn't
mean you go and desecrate a masjid, even if it isn't being used.

deb>  The above statement is a *fact* compared to what the situation of Hindus
deb>  and other minorities in Islamic countries are ! In Bangladesh, if a Hindu
deb>  wishes to sell his/ her property and migrate to India, situations are
deb> extremely hostile. That is a Hindu property is an "enemy" property. So, by
deb>   religious of the state (probably Sharia) the Hindu has to give up about
deb> 40% of what he/ she would have made, and, then go. (I have direct personal
deb>experience in this, and I am *not* lying here to raise a voice of protest.)

deb> In Pakistan and other Islamic countries intolerance is practised to its
deb> extreme. Moreover, in all Muslim dominated cities/ states whenever there
deb> is something anti-Muslim, a huge uproar occurs. (In the Gulf War time, one
deb>  saw clearly how Muslims were cajoled by Rajiv Gandhi and supporting the 
deb> cause of Saddam Hussein. As Gargan reports, the hostility shown by most
deb>  Muslims towards India whenever there is an India-Pakistan cricket match, 
deb> is surprising.)

Nobody needs to tell me about the intolerence in the Islamic countries. I grew
up under one!!! I grew up in the United Arab Emirates and so can speak from
personal experience about the intolerence they have. The intolerence you speak
of comes from the Arabs and *not* from the Indian Muslims. Dont blame the
Indian Muslims for the intolerence of the Arab Muslims because they dont
tolerate each other either, at least thats what I have seen in my 11 years in
Dubai. As for the cricket matches you'll be surprised as to how much support
the Indian Muslims give to India. I wont deny that there are Indian Muslims
who'll support the Pakistani side but they are in a minority.

deb>  In short the Indian Muslims enjoy themselves as an extremely privileged
deb>  class - 150 million out of 882 million Indian population. 

And that was a mistake that the Congress Party under Nehruji made IMHO. Giving
too many priveleges to the Muslim community within India they  made a big
mistake. 

deb>  There could be a good solution to this, and, in *all* civilized countries
deb> including the one where Mr.Sanghvi lives and spreads his ignorant hate
deb>  for Hindus there is probably one uniform code. The Mormon dominated Utah
deb>  was allowed to join the Union provided they agreed to accept law
deb>  probibiting polygamy. Could there be *one* single of civil laws for *all*
deb>  Indians ? Can Muslims accept the laws of the Qur'an, Sharia, Hadith and
deb> Sunnah be overruled ? I am just asking Mr.Sanghvi to answer this question
deb> in a reasonable manner - assuming that he (Mr.Sanghvi) has a working 
deb> knowledge of the Islamic laws and strictures. The colossal waste of money
deb> and effort in cajoling  a *single* minority community - and *not* others
deb> is what making the troubles in India pretty worse today. 

I do not preach hate for all Hindus ... whatever I say in regard to Hindus is
directed towards the Hindus who participated in the desecration at Ayodhya it
is *not* directed to all Hindus. All I want is punishment for the Hindus who
were involved. I dont want every Hindu on earth to be shot dead!!!

As for having one set of Fedral laws for all Indians, yes I think it is still
possible to rectify Nehruji and Congress's mistake in giving special rights to
the Muslims. Something based along the lines of the Civil Rights laws of the
USA. I dont have a working knowledge of Islamic laws as such, so I cant answer
it from that viewpoint. As for the waste of money in cajoling a single
community ... i agree with you on that point. Like I said it was a mistake
made by the Congress Party at the time of Independance.

deb>   Forgetting what had happened in the past, will it be physically possible
deb>   to implement one single code of laws to givern civic life ? If that is
deb> really possible, then  the problems (communal) would subside considerably.
deb>  Given the average Indian Muslim, and, noticing the ant-India/ Hindu
deb>  feeling he has, one cannot dream of amicability. This is not possible as
deb>   (1) Indian Muslims would cry hoarse and (2) Pakistan and Bangladesh and
deb>  subsequently all Islamic countries would jump onto the bandwagon of India
deb>  bashing till the sun and the moon exchanged places.
deb>      Lastly, it must be noted that Cong.(I) has always been adept in the
deb>    philosophy of "crisis management". To subdue one crisis there has been
deb>  creation of another crisis. (Mrs. Gandhi, however world-class charismatic
deb>     leader she might have been, was an expert in this.) Starting with the
deb>      toppling of the Namboodripad Govt. in 1957 in Kerala, and, upto the
deb>      creation of the Sikh crisis (rise of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale)
deb>     one sees all her tactics - which made her pay at the cost of her life.

It will not be an easy thing to physically implement a single set of laws but
If all communities are willing to work at it, and trash like the ISS, RSS, VHP
SS, etc. are kept under control ( or even better totally eradicated :) ) then I
think it is possible. This would definately reduce the amount of communal
tensions within the country. 

AS for the Indian Muslim being anti-India I dont think so. The Muslims in
India chose to stay within India out of their own free-will. No one forced
them to stay in India. Yes the Indian Muslim community would "cry hoarse" if
their special privelges were taken away and they were to obey all Fedral laws.
As for Pakistan and Bangladesh to hell with  them ( no offense Saeed ) this is
an internal problem, and they have no rights whatsoever to interfere. Pakistan
and Bangladesh ( and India ) are always looking for ways to bash the other
one. The rest of the Islamic world will join the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
rather then the Republic of India.

deb>  Thus, a Hindu in India who has no other country to identify with - a more
deb>  cultural dilemma than anything else, is pushed to wall to exercise 
deb>  intolerance. The recent incidents at Ayodhya show that this intolerance
deb>  will continue. The GOI *will never* attempt to make a single uniform law
deb>  for *all Indians* irrespective of religion. Elementary analysis of the
deb>  historical situations show that there is still a fierce danger in the
deb>  making. 

There is a "fierce danger in the making" unless the GOI chnages its stance on
the special priveleges to the Muslims.


[ the below is an side that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand ]

I have received a lot of heat on this topic ... and I am more then willing to
accept the criticism ... I didn't post my original article thinking i wouldn't
get criticised or flamed ... but i will not respond to those who resort to
just plain and simple flamin' without contributing anything to the discussion
at had hand. People like Deb, Saeed, Sethi, and a couple of others ( sorry
folks i forgot the names ) have criticised me but its been constructive ( for
me and I'm sure the net.population of this group in general ). If people want
to respond I don't discourage it at all ... but i'd appreciate it if it was
kept to the newsgroup rather then to email ... about 90% of the email has been
deragotry to be unmentionable ( Saeed and Sethi were the only constructive
ones ).  Just so as those people know your email is going to /dev/null in case
you're wondering why there was no response.


increase the peace 
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