HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 23:55:35 GMT

	Sorry, I have been out of touch with the net. for the past week,
so some of the stuff I have to say will be a little out of date.
	First, THE RUNES IN THE HOBBIT ARE GENUINE RUNES. I have said this
a number of times and people don't want to believe me on varying grounds,
but usually because they confuse them with the runes in Lord of the Rings.
The runes in The Hobbit may vary slightly from those that you may find
elsewhere, but that is because many systems were used, some with only
minor changes.
	I also referred to them as Anglo-Saxon runes. I shouldn't have
done this. I should have called them Old-English runes, which is the term
that I believe Tolkien used. English is here a geographical term and not a
racial one.
	On Oghams, they were mostly found in Ireland, and indeed most of
the oldest oghams were written there, indicating that this is where they
originated from. There has also been at least one ogham message found in
North America, indicating that the Vikings used them, and also made it to
America before Columbus. I am afraid that I don't have any sources that I
can quote, but the person who told me is one I would trust implicitly.
	Also, on the uses of ogham, the theory espoused by McAlister in his
book Secret Languages of Ancient Ireland, is that they were originally
used as hand signals. The shape of the oghams certainly lend themselves to
this. He also give five other oghams, but I'm not sure of his sources for
these.
-- 
Conrad Leviston	 | Got to find a brightness in the soul,
mongoose@yoyo.	 | Not look outside to find out where we are,
cc.monash.edu.au | Otherwise you won't be satisfied, 
Save the gherkin | 'Til you've made possession of the stars. (K.Wallinger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: no kill file
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 21:18:27 GMT
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California

Ceci Henningsson <ceci@lysator.liu.se> writes in part:

>Her articles seem interesting, but I can't spend half an hour with
>each of them trying to *guess* what she means.

And Janis Maria Cortese <cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu> writes:

>Chill!  It was my understanding that she had a disability that
>interfered.  It's a pain to read, but so what?  Sometimes people have
>problems that keep them from communicating in Broadcast English; her
>posts are worth reading.

Personally, I *enjoy* Ms. Rolling's artful and interesting spellings.

Typical dull, plodding misspellings I can do without, but hers are
something else altogether.  Notwithstanding the value of standard
spelling to written discourse, uniqueness is something to be treasured.

Art is where you find it,

Pete
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: republican delema
Date: 1 Sep 92 09:09:22 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <16467@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard
Darsie) writes:

>Actually, it's not true.  I believe Teddy Roosevelt was first elected
>from a third-party candidacy - something like the "Bull & Moose" Party (!)
>Can anyone verify this??

In trying to remember my US Government classes, I seem to remember that the
only times a third party has won, was when the third part was replacing one of
the major two for all practical purposes.

I know there was one election held where there was a 3rd party running, and it
split the votes so the most popular 2 people lost to the 3rd who had a slightly
more solid block, while less popular with the public...  But after that
election the 3rd party dissapeared because it "realized" that it was a
hinderance to the system...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Republicans & Propaganda
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:36:50 GMT
Organization: Walking Dead Man Bar and Grille

On 2 Sep 92 16:17:47 GMT, PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor) said:

Nancy> I ran across a couple of quotes the other day   that I thought might
Nancy> interest folks here in light of the threads dealing with Fascisim
Nancy> and Republicans.

[specific Hitlerian ravings deleted]

I think I see where you want our thoughts to end up after reading your
post: Hitler say some things and was a Nazi.  Republicans say some
similar things.  Therefore Dan Quayle is a Nazi.

Now, I'm not saying he is or isn't, but I doubt it.  My point about
this is that this is bad reasoning and either you knew that when you
posted or you didn't.  If you didn't know it, I offer the following
analogy for clarification:  Hitler liked strudel (he may have, anyway)
and was a Nazi.  I like strudel, therefore, I am a Nazi?  (Please
don't quote this out of context :^).  On the other hand, you may have
know it was poor logic, and said it anyway.  If you, I want to
discourage that sort of debating.  After all, there are plenty of
logically consistent ways to torpedo the Republican Party, that we
need not use this sort of argument.


Nancy> Blessings from an increasingly agravated,
Nancy> Nancy Proctor

Nancy> ///////////////////////////////
Nancy> Nancy Josephine Proctor . . . . PA142138@UTKVM.EDU

Nancy> "It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question."
Nancy>                                  Eugene Ionesco

Nancy> ////////////////////////////// . . .

Blessings and Peace from no fan of the Republicans...
--
-mad

Michael A. Davis		mad@spirit.clearpoint.com

Clearpoint Research Corp. / 135 Parkwood Drive / Hopkinton, MA 01738
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:36:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.053926.5714@u.washington.edu> mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.065332.2887@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>>	Any decent copy of The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien will have Anglo-Saxon
>>Runes in it. There are also Ogams, seen below, but these aren't
>>particularly pleasing aesthetically.
>
> The Ogham are Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. The Anglo-Saxons originally used
>the Elder Futhark, which was later expanded.
>
>>The letters are each supposed to touch the middle line, and the /'s are
>>supposed to be single slashes though the middle line. These runes are
>>fabled to have been invented by Ogma, the god of literature, and one of
>>the Tuatha De Danaan.
>
> who also happens to be a Celtic deity, not an Anglo, a Saxon, or any
>combination of the two.
>
>Wasssail,
>Grendel

It has been my experience that the Anglo-Saxons are Celts. There are several
anthropolgists, one of whom I have spoken with on this subject at the National
Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian, who believe that the Celtic
"nation" originated with the Scythians, and moved west as tribes, becoming
the Goths, Visigoths, Vikings, Danes, Saxons, Britons, Irish, Picts (though
here some believe the Picts to be descendants of Creten sailors), etc., and
that if the Celtic "nation" had united under one ruler, would have made the
Roman Empire look like Saturday night in Toledo Ohio.

Indeed, when the Russian government brought an exhibit to the U.S. entitled
Nomads of the Eurasian Steppe, one of the pieces of bridle decoration cuaght
me eye at once. Had I not read that the triskel spirals I was looking at
were actually Scythian ca. 700 B.C. I would have sworn they were Irish Celtic
ca. 900 A.D.

My point is that describing the Ogham as merely Celtic, you should be a bit
more specific and say Irish or British Celtic, or even British Druidic, since
it was used (to my knowledge) only by the scholar class, the Druids, and not
by the common folk.

I will admit that my knowledge may be limited, but this is how I understand
it. Naturally I will entertain corrections to my knowledge. Let's see, I have
a mariachi band here somewhere. ;-)

Bb,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |   How can you be in two places at once,
  Dark Horde by birth   |     When you're not anywhere at all?
    Moritu by choice    |                            Sybil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: spike@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen Pike)
Subject: Re: S'mores (was: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 05:15:55 GMT

MICHAEL CARSON (c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu) wrote:

: 	What's un-veg about them?

The gelatin in them is made from ground bovine hooves (hoofs?).
-- 
     .....{{  -----  __o         Sky clear up.  Sunlight is
     ....{   -----  _\<,         Brilliant.  Let's ride far away.
     ...{{  ----- (*)' (*)    
				 remember sunscreen
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: HEAVEN
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:15:37 GMT

In article <BB4ZPB10w165w@korova.uucp> system@korova.uucp (razorback) writes:
>popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C. Barwell) writes:
>

[a hypothetical dialogue between God and a Christian...]

>> God:  Stop!  I gave you a brain!  A magnificent brain, the best I could 
>>    give you!  And you didn't even use it!  You played games with it?
>>    Silly religous books full of lies and you did not even try to see thru 
>>    the lies even when they were very obvious!  You through logic out of
>>     your brain and played foolish games with words.  You could even prove 
>>    that black was white with your silly little games!  You insulted me
>>    The Lord God by not using your wonderful brain to it's fullest!
>>    You are no better than one of the animals who also do not think much!
>>    Depart!  Only those who use their minds are fit company for the Gods!
>
>
>you know, some people say that the saftey of animals depends upon the 
>fact that every sense is utilitarian. why, then, were we blessed with 
>imagination that gave us everything we have now, including religion and 
>such?
>
>that is the only thing that i have found different between us and 
>animals. we are willing to believe in something we are not really even 
>sure is there. you cant prove it with mathematical computation or your 
>senses, so how do we know? because we know?

I guess I'm just in a talkative mood today, but I thought I'd mention that
there is a FAIR amount of evidence that many "intelligent" creatures who
don't happen to fit the Homo Sapiens mold have been shown to not only 
possess high-level reasoning ability, but imagination as well. Just because
this intelligence is not like human intelligence OR we just don't understand
it (the usual case) don't assume we are "so different".

And a note to Ciaran, if you are listening:

Just how does one contact the Fey? And just how "intelligent" are they?
Can you communicate with them?

I suppose either a new thread or e-mail is in order...

Blessings,

Murray



-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Religious Bulletin Board Lists and Pagan Representation
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 06:13:36 GMT

 There is a fairly widely read magazine that discusses bulletin boards and
things affecting them, the issues involved, programs, and technology. It is
usually a fairly good magazine. In the most recent issue the editor, Jack
Rickard, announced that he was going to do a list of religious bulletin
boards in the near future. Rickard had recently (in the previous issue)
editorialized quite a bit about God and American society and the
relationship between the two. It was pretty obvious that he is working,
expectedly, from a Christian persepctive.

 After I saw his announcement of a religious BBS list, I decided to
send him e-mail inquiring if he was going to include non-Christian
bulletin boards (the only religious bulletin board references he  has made
recently were to "FamilyNet," a Christian BBS network) in order to see if
he was aware that there were networks of non-Christian bulletin boards. If
he was interested and gave a favorable response, I was going to give him a
copy of the nodelist for the pagan network my BBS is on and the Buddhist
network I am involved with. 

 Unfortunatly, he took offense to what I asked (I can show my piece of
e-mail to him if anyone wishes) probably due to stating that a "republican
values" BBS list would be a disservice to him and his magazine.

 If any of you wish to try to reason with him to get him to give
representation to religions (pagan and non-pagan) outside of
Christianity, I would suggest sending him e-mail. Apparantly, no matter
what, my BBS will not be represented due to my offending his poor self.

 His e-mail address is jack.rickard@boardwatch.com.

Have fun since he seems like an unfriendly bastard (too bad since he has
an excellent BBS magazine).

Wassail,
Grendel

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
------------------------------ Cut Here -------------------------------------
begin 644 GRENDEL.PUB
MF58``1%^*@Q":6QL:6YG<RP@06S^`2N`$7JAHA^YG*D:W0:>,_,\N<XL-]7BN
LV+1/'DT4SH3V2$'*(9NAE_,+VB9R.4=@$9R.J1?CL3H!9@HR8+7DD3@%`!$%E
``
end
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: hello again
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:47:36 GMT

Hi folks. I'm having trouble sending e-mail, being new to this system and to 
computers in general, so I'm responding to Hans C. Masing and Lynda over open post.
Lynda: I know. I screwed up. I didn't bring my "Mists of Avalon" to school 
with me, so I called and checked with a friend. You are absolutely right. I
also decided it was presumptuous to use the name of a Goddess-figure on
a newsgroup, so I have changed my usename. It is now Rosaleen Dhu, which
is pidgin-Gaelic for "black rose". (Anybody out there who's read "Born To
Run" will know what I'm talking about.)
Hans: Rosaleen Dhu is not my real name, silly. My real name is something so
disgustingly airheaded that I rarely use it. Besides, as I said, personal
experience has taught me not to give my real name over open postings.
Also, to Nancy: Thanks for the tip on wackos. I figured that looking for a 
teacher over a newsgroup was marginally less wacko-prone than the other usual methods. (My Craft sister, the one who got me hooked in the first place, will
not teach me anything because she says she is not qualified, and she is 
probably right.) Mercedes Lackey books are terrific. I have read the Valdemar series many-many-many times and love them. Winds of Fate is also pretty good,
but if you are a Skif fan do not read it. It does, however, tell a lot more
about the Hawkbrothers, which is nice. If she'd just write a book about
the Shin'a'in, I'd be really happy. Also, if you have not read Summoned to
Tourney (the sequel to Knight Of Ghosts and Shadows) don't bother. It bit.
					Rosaleen Dhu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: republican delema
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 05:59:22 GMT

txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:

>I think that the best solution to the problems with the dominit partys and
>groups like that belonging to Pat Robensen is to form a Pagen party. fight
>fire with fire. There are bound to be enufe pagens out there to make this
>work. With a unified party even the smalist wimper can be hurd from a large
>enife group. There are probly enufe pagens out there that the funding could
>easaly be suplyed to such a canadite to put there face and vews out in public
>and make them well known. We could gain the first pagen presadent.

This is not very likely.  Women can't get a president elected, Blacks can't
get a president elected.  None of the many parties which are not demo-publican
have come anywhere close to winning a presidential election.  There are nowhere
near as many pagans as there are blacks, women, etc.  I think the largest number
I have seen for the estimated pagan population in the U.S. was 500K.  That isn't
even a decent sized city.  Also, neo-pagans tend to be less likely to pursue
money for it's own sake, and so have less money to give to such causes.

Also, the electoral system in this country makes it very difficult for small
party candidates in presidential elections.  To get *any* electoral votes, the
candidate must win a whole state.  The last time we had a president who was not
a Democrat or a Republican was in 1848, when the Whig party (the victorious
one) was the standard conservative party of the time, as the Republican 
party is now.  The U.S. has never had a president who was not one of the two
big parties since the parties came into existence.  George Washington was the
*only* president the U.S. have *ever* had who was not part of the two big
parties.

Sad, but true.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism
From: sfee@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Sandie Fee)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Gathering of the Tribes
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:42:48 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

Hi,

This is my first post so I hope this works.

My name is Sandra and I have been reading this group for a while now and was
wondering if anyone out there can help me.

I'm trying to find out about the Gathering of the Tribes which is to take
place in Northern Georgia the middle of Sept. Any information as to when,
where, and whats to take place would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

Sandra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: invertied cross
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:23:06 GMT

txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:

>an in vertied cross (upside down)is The Coss of Peter. the satonic version
>of the cross is at an angle mesering ether -45 degrees or 225 degrees- a very
>comen misconception (figuers are aproxamit).
>	

The cross used by people who call themselves Satanists is the inverted cross.
It is also the cross of Peter.  The cross at 45 degrees is the cross of Saint
Andrew (seen in every flag of the U.K.).  However, I suspect that the net.
satanists are unlikely to use any cross.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 1 Sep 92 02:42:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.155139.302@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>In article <BtqCJM.Ezo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've 
>>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory.  Eddie, can you help us out
>>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>>
>>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>>                               Br'anArthur
>
>I had always heard that the Masons went as far back as Alexander the Great.
>Maybe not the modern Masonic Temple as we know it (or as well as anyone not
>a Mason can know it) today, or the Sottish Rites crew, but the basic premises
>and such. 

People say the same thing about Paganism and witchcraft, and they are
right.  They basic ideas go back to paleolithic culture.

But, they sure ain't the same! 

>I will admit to not having studied Masonry, but this is what I've
>heard. I will await further additions to this thread eagerly. The Masons
>have always intrigued me.

I'm kind of interested, too.  I've evidently not given them enough
mental air time; they always seemed a little like Fred Flintstone's
Loyal Order of Water Buffalos.  Seems I'm due for a reality check, huh?
(I've also heard things about how they are closely related to the
Mormons.)

Blessings,
Janis
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:34:53 GMT
Organization: Black Oak

In article <1992Aug22.231149.18460@u.washington.edu> rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
>
>--And I ask in return (puzzled), what was the point that he missed?
>

The story of Lleu is more than just the story of a love triangle; in
fact, the love triangle is entirely subsidiary to the true substance of
the tale, which is, that it describes Lleu's initiation into kingship.
Consider:
   Lleu is given a cantref (district) to rule over, but doesn't seem to
do a very effective job.  Like Baldr, he can only be an effective ruler
when he has "died" and been reborn.
   Lleu can only be killed in special circumstances, specifically, in a
liminal state.  He cannot be killed on foot or on horseback, on land or
on water, indoors or out.  The special circumstance is brought about by
his having bathed under a sort of gazebo (a roof with supports but no
walls), emerged from the bath, and standing with one foot on the edge of
the bath and the other on the back of a goat.  Even in this special
state, he can only be killed with a spear that has been worked on "while
folk are at Mass on Sundays" (the implication to the Christian redactor
being that it must be an evil spear, since the maker would have to have
missed Mass to forge it; the implication to me being more like, it was
wrought as part of a magical ceremony like Mass).  Baldr, too, could
only be killed by a special spear.
   When Lleu is struck by the spear, he does not die.  He is transformed
into an eagle, and spends a year in the branches of what is demonstrably
the World Tree (it is an oak which water does not rot, nor fire burn,
between two lakes on an otherwise empty plain.  Yggdrasil, the Norse
World Ash also has bodies of water at its root -- three wellsprings).
His flesh is eaten by a black sow, a cthonic beast worthy of the spirits
of the Tibetan chod rite (in which the shaman offers up his flesh to be
eaten by hungry spirits).
   The part of the initiating master is played by Lleu's mother's
brother (a very important relationship in Northern cultures, even today
in Sweden), Gwyddion.  It is he who finds Lleu, gives him back a human
shape, and spends a further year healing his wasted body before Lleu can
take control of his cantref away from the interloper Gronw Pebr.  The
function of the initiating master is to bring the initiate back to
earth, to help hir assimilate hir experience and relate it to mundane
(or even profane) reality.

That being said, I also don't think the English boy should have ended up
with the girl in THE OWL SERVICE, I was rooting for the Welsh boy.  But hey...

B*B
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"