Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 08:17:02 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 281

In this issue:
            Brown, same-sex marriage, and the government(s)
                    lesbians, statistics, and Shanti
                 H. Ross Perot versus other candidates
                 Getting a ROOM for your student group
                             Couples Groups
                          ngltf, rights, etc.
                         to the anon sender...

Please send messages for the entire list to gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU,
requests to be added or deleted to gaynet-request@ATHENA.MIT.EDU, and
personal replies directly to the other person, not the entire list.
Postings to GayNet are public communications.  If you must keep your
privacy, send your messages to gaynet-anonymous@ATHENA.MIT.EDU.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 18:58:47 +0200
From: tid!dante@HUMPHREY.LOCAL (Donn Hoffman)
Subject: Brown, same-sex marriage, and the government(s)


   Date:    Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
   From: NICKELSRJ@RASCAL.GUILFORD.EDU
        .
        .
        .
   For the federal
   government to make such a determination would bring us one step closer to
   fascism.
   On the other hand, it is perfectly within the federal judiciary to declare
   unconstitutional governmental discrimination of any kind, at any level.  All
   states are subject to the Constitution -- they should not, however, be
   subject
   to federal control.  For Brown to say yes to federal legislation recognizing
   same-sex marriage would be a *very* bad thing.  Equality through federal
   domination is not the answer.  If we relinquish the right to govern
   ourselves
   locally, we are left in the hands of Washington.  And that frightens me.


We are already "in the hands of Washington."  The Federal govenment levies
income taxes and use taxes.  The Federal government doles out entitlements.

And the fact that our nation's laws deny the existence of relationships
between people of the same sex that meet every definition of marriage
save the license is a very costly insult.

Federal legislation, or even an executive order or regulatory rulings,
recognizing same-sex couples for the purposes of taxation and entitlements
would move our society closer to "equality," but no closer to "federal
domination."

RJ, you are crying "states rights" in *exactly* the same voice as Thurmond and
Wallace and Bull Connor.  Look past your alarmist phrases "facsism," "states
rights," and "federal domination" to the real issue: fairness.

Consider:

Case 1.  Jack, a federal pensioner, lives with Jill for eleven years
in a marriage by common law.  Jack dies of a stroke one afternoon, and
Jill continues to receive his [reduced] pension check until she dies
twenty years later.

Case 2.  Mary, a federal pensioner, lives with Jane for eleven years.
Mary dies of a stroke one afternoon, and her pension check stops
coming.  Jane lives on cat food 'til she dies twenty years later.

Please explain to me how a Federal law recognizing Mary's entitlement
to Jane's pension benefits would trample the States' rights.

- ---
Donn Hoffman -- Telefonica Investigacion y Desarollo
Internet: dante@humphrey.tid.es    Voice/fax: +34 1 594 52 57
Disclaimer: My employer doesn't know what email is.
NOTE: Automatic replies to this message probably won't work.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 17:01:36 -0700
From: Jessea N. R. Greenman <jnrg@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: lesbians, statistics, and Shanti

Perhaps there are multiple explanations for the numbers of lesbians
working and volunteering at Shanti.  Perhaps there are cultural issues
about comfort levels in the working environment.  Perhaps there were
certain adverse selection factors at work in recruitment and hiring.
Perhaps those numbers cited are part of some trend (up? down? we
don't know).  Cold numbers without context don't tell very much that's useful,
 folks.  There aren't many under-represented
groups in the U.S. Senate...does that mean these groups don't care
about politics? Aren't competent?  Puh-leez.

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 92 20:06:07 EDT
From: "Gary Klein, bear at heart" <FAC2813%UOFT01.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject:      H. Ross Perot versus other candidates

     From what I know of the man from his career with IBM, EDS (the first
company that he founded) and General Motors (who acquired EDS in a merger
and then paid-off Mr. Perot to silence him), I think that Perot would be
much more destructive to LesBiGay concerns than any other candidate.

     In a number of ways, he is even more arch-conservative than Pat Buchanan
and is very supportive of the U.S. military efforts, especially when it comes
to "might makes right".

     The man was never known for his skills with detente or negotionations.

     Perot certainly has enough money that he could out spend EVERY
presidential candidate when it comes to advertising locally & nationally.

     BUT WOULD I EVER WANT TO SEE HIM RUN THIS COUNTRY?  If you think that
Bush or Buchanan are going to pack the Cabinet & Supreme Court appointments
with conservatives, then Perot certainly has enough friends to really put
conservatives into key positions WITHOUT worrying about the politics of the
appointments.

     Remember, Perot is an outsider when it comes to Washington DC -- just
as he was when General Motors put him on the Board of Directors of GM as
part of the deal to acquire EDS.  If GM couldn't stomach him, how do you
think the American Public is going to take to his "lone ranger" style of
taking charge of everything, and delegating orders who have similar military
backgrounds -- MARINES always were his favorite training ground for EDS
employees.

     YES, he might take votes away from George Bush, but what if he winds
the race!

"Librarians, Leather bound"
      * * * *          Gary Klein,   Business Librarian,  Univ of Toledo
       *   *                     P.O.Box 12650 / Toledo OH 43606
        * *            WORK: 419-537-2629             HOME: 419-243-2740
         *             BITNET:   fac2813@uoft01        FAX: 419-537-2726
  B4 t+ w- g s+ k             INTERNET: fac2813@uoft01.utoledo.edu

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 92 21:10:50 EDT
From: "Gary Klein (bear at heart)" <FAC2813%UOFT01.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject:      Getting a ROOM for your student group

     The first thing our group did was look at actual applications that were
successfully filed & approved last year.  That way you get an idea of what
works on your campus.

     WARNING if you list all sorts of grandiose projects on your application,
what happens if you cannot get them all up & running after you get your room?
At our campus, EVERY SINGLE GROUP has to re-apply from scratch each & every
year.  That way groups have to keep up on their toes, and have to make
realistic projections about what they will be doing in the up coming year.

     Room requests are looked down upon if you do not utilize your assigned
room, which leads to the loss of rooms for about 5 groups each year at UT.

     Due to a lack of adequate space on our campus, groups were told up front
that they would get bonus points during the room review process, if they were
willing to share space with another group.  One bunch of groups who were
sharing space in 1991 specifically ask to be separated & given their own
rooms, while NONE OF THEM were ever known for staffing their desk at their
posted hours.  Our group being all new at this (only 18 months since we held
our first meeting) went out of our way to volunteering to share with ANYONE,
even if was just a corner of a 2 by 4.

     We ended up with OUR OWN ROOM, all by ourselves, since no one wanted to
share space with "that gay group".  And rather than just staffing our office
8 hours a week (the bare minimum requirement at UT), we are now staffing it
about 15 hours EACH week!  So guess who got their room assignment renewed,
without having to share with anyone!

"Librarians, Leather bound"
      * * * *          Gary Klein,   Business Librarian,  Univ of Toledo
       *   *                     P.O.Box 12650 / Toledo OH 43606
        * *            WORK: 419-537-2629             HOME: 419-243-2740
         *             BITNET:   fac2813@uoft01        FAX: 419-537-2726
  B4 t+ w- g s+ k             INTERNET: fac2813@uoft01.utoledo.edu

------------------------------

From: mramey@u.washington.edu
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 18:29:58 -0700
Subject: Couples Groups

Posted for the editors of Partners Magazine.
Replies may be mailed directly to them (see address below),
or you may email to me and I will forward to them.
-Mike Ramey (mramey@u.washington.edu)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                   Contact: Stevie Bryant or Demian
April 13, 1992                                            (206) 784-1519
                Desperately  Seeking  Couples  Groups
SEATTLE  --  In the last few years, same-sex couples have formed dozens
of social groups around the nation, according to "Partners Magazine for
Gay & Lesbian Couples".
        "The groups allow couples to discuss common interests and
socialize in a supportive environment," says Demian, co-editor of
Partners.  "They range from informal potluck clubs to organizations with
hundreds of members who choose from several events each month.
        "A typical group might have a dinner one month and host a speaker
the next," he says.  "Some include both sexes, others have a single-
gender outreach."
        The magazine is developing a list of these groups to add to its
free resource list, which contains nearly a hundred organizations, books
and films with a couples focus.
        If you are part of a couples organization, please provide the
group's name, address, contact person(s) and phone to:  Partners, Box
9685, Seattle, WA 98109-0685; (206)784-1519.
        To receive a copy of the current resource list, send a self-
addressed, stamped, business-size envelope to "Partners Resource List" at
the address above.
        Partners Magazine is a quarterly journal of news, interviews and
information.  Annual subscriptions cost $21 for individuals, $32 for
organizations.
--------------------------------  end  ----------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 21:29:14 EDT
From: weiben.wang@um.cc.umich.edu
X-Mts-Userid: 69BA

subscribe gaynet Weiben Wang

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:08:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: NICKELSRJ@RASCAL.GUILFORD.EDU
Subject: ngltf, rights, etc.

        thanks for writing back.  my objection to the ngltf is that the
organization does not represent me.  it does not work on my behalf.  it
fights to secure the rights of gays and lesbians.  it does *not* fight to
secure *anything* for bisexuals.  whatever rights are gained through the
lobbying done by ngltf may *apply* to bisexuals, but the fact that they
were secured for gays and lesbians belittles the symbolic meaning of those
rights for bisexuals.  so, practically, the laws may serve no different end.
however, to contend that the ngltf's sole purpose is to lobby the congress
and other legislatures is foolish.  the organization serves as a central
organizing post for much of the queer networking done in the u.s.  that
such an organization would deny recognition to *any* population in the
sexual minority is unconscionable.  rights are not solely secured through
the legislature.  that is an essential forum in which issues of rights must
be addressed; however, the rights have little meaning if there is not as
much if not more grass-roots social change.  this kind of change, the basic
and fundamental transformation of ideals and values, is as if not more
important than legal "victories."  when these grass-roots movements are
weakened internally by dissention and fracture, it is unlikely that much
can be accomplished efficiently despite all our laws and court battles.
of what use is a law to me if i am rejected by the people who lobbied for
that same law.  my life is still incomplete -- i am still denied an identity.
my rights have not been secured.  i have a right (and here i mean morally
and ethically) to a bisexual identity, free from contempt and abuse by my
"sisters and brethren."

thanks again, and keep writing!

- rj

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 01:41:59 -0500
From: Brad Chamberlain <bchambln@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Subject: to the anon sender...

well, to the anonomous sender...it seems to me that you have really negative
 feelings for the gay communityas a whole because of what happened to you???

I know that it is hard to get over things like taht..especially being raped..
I know a married man that was raped..and he is gay..and while he has not totally
 recovered from it..he does not hate..can I use that word??..hate the gay
community for not being there...

while I do agree that the community can sometimes be not there..they are
 there.and while you may have to look..there are people who will support you.
 Just
like I have had to find people to support me with my roommate situation.

which..by the way..I will be posting the outcome of all of this..as soon as
everything is done...

but my advice is to not be bitter towards the gay community...they do have
things to offer...

it reminds me of a song by amy grant and the lines...

"ask me how i know there's a god up in the heavens..
where did he go in the middle of her shame"...

 hang in there...

bchambln@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 07:56 EST
From: "John \"THE GUNNER\" Szefcyk" <SJS9405%OBERLIN.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>

sub John A. Szefcyk II

------------------------------

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