From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Just how much smarter are atheists?
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:01:13 GMT

HEATHER LEE FYFFE (910773f@ace.acadiau.ca) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec12.061611.24526@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Ken
dig) writes:
: >>
: >>Just how stupid must one be to believe in a God? (This is the general
: >>feeling that I get from reading 90% of the messages in this group: that
: >>atheists must either be super-intelligent or God-fearing, religious
: >>people must be interminably stupid.)
: >
:
: Sorry if this sounds like I'm bragging, but it is all true...

[Ms. Fyffe brags about her "smart" credentials, and tells us she is a 
christian]

[Ms. Fyffe engages in a little fundie bashing]

: As for truth, somebody mentioned that there are many truths, until they get
: disproved, or something like that.  Might I point out that that implies a
: very liberal definition of truth - that truth is relative, that each person
: can have their own truth, that truth is transient and changeable.  Well, I'm
: sorry, but the big-T Truth, as in the way things actually are, the way the
: universe actually was created, the real purpose in our being here (if you
: believe there is one), can only be one thing.

And what is that?

:                                                The universe DID come into
: existence a certain way, it can not possibly have happenned differently for
: different people.  And whether we were created by a benevolent God, or an
: evil one, or evolved by chance, or were created by the god Nature, whatever,
: we came into existence one way and one way only.  Different religions and
: beliefs cannot all be right, and I cannot understand how some people can
: say `well, whatever works for that person'.
:
: Religion is not just a way of dealing with life.  Sure, that does come into
: play.  But it is also a belief in a certain truth, and if you believe in
: that truth, then what others believe to be true must be wrong, because there
: can only be one Truth.  So EVERYBODY goes through life trying to convince
: everybody else that they're wrong.  Christians by evangelizing, atheists by
: arguing with Christians, even apathetics who say `whatever works'.  Some try
: more forcibly, some don't really _try_, but just stating your own opinion
: forces others to consider it.  But if you don't believe in your truth
: strongly enough to consider it the big-T Truth, then why do you believe in
: it at all?
:
: Before you flame me on this point, I know that most of you atheists on this
: group DO consider your truth to be the big-T Truth and you're not afraid to
: say so.  These last paragraphs were aimed at those who say `you believe what
: you believe and I'll believe what I believe and let's not get in other's
: way, OK?'.

Oh what the heck, I'll flame you.  I don't think there are any "Big-T" Truths.
(unless you count the belief that if you're unsupported in a gravity well and
you are not in orbit around that well then you will fall)  The little-t truths
are all we get.  There is no meaning, there is no reason for things being the
way they are.  Reality is.

[Ms. Fyffe assures us that she is not dimwitted or superstitious (though "Big-T
Truth" sounds superstitious to me]

: >example, I don't see how anyone could say "There is a God-shaped hope
: >in everyone" with a straight face unless that person had put
: >absolutely no thought into religious differences at all.
:
:
: First of all, it is a hole, not a hope.  Though perhaps that was a Freudian
: slip....?

This is a gratuitious spelling flame.  With P and L being diagonally close, the
mistake could be a simple slip of the finger.

:            Everyone, whether they will admit it or not, knows that they have
: a soul.  Noone can possibly believe that `I', what makes me `me', my
: thoughts, my feelings, my personality, is merely a product of atoms jumping
: around in the brain.

These two sentences are the reason I decided to respond to this metaphysical
mumbo jumbo.  I for one don't _believe_ that "my thoughts, my feelings, my
personality, is [sic] merely a product of atoms jumping around in the brain".
But I accept it as the best working hypothesis until a better one comes along.

:                       You all know that there is something intangible that
: is `you'.  This is spirituality - not believing in ghosts, but believing in
: people.  All people also wonder, at least a little bit, `why'.  This is the
: God-shaped hole.  The longing for a purpose, the human condition.  The
: reason that men go into space.  The reason people crave money, power,
: attention.  The reason some become drug addicts, alcoholics, sexaholics.
: They are searching for fulfillment, a reason for being.  Some just give up
: and become apathetics.  That does not mean, though, that if a truth was
: proven to them, they wouldn't be happy about it.  They'd still like to know,
  ^^^^^^
: they just gave up trying to find out.

This is the point.  For many of us atheists we find that proof is lacking.

: How else can you explain the intense happiness and joy that new Christians
: experience?  We finally feel fulfilled, yes, this is what I've been waiting
: for.

Actually, there are other psychological reasons including hypnotic repetition,
auto suggestion and peer pressure.

:       Now I have something to strive for.  How many ex-Christians can say
: they felt that when they left the faith?  Most often they left because of
: disillusionment, disappointment, and disgust with the Church and its
: operations.  And I must say, in most cases I can't blame them.  The Church
: as an organization is materialistic, egotistical, and uncaring about its
: members.  But can those who left truly say that they have found happiness
: since?  Sure, you may say it easily, and you probably will.  But I challenge
: you to question whether you really, truly mean it, or is it just another
: mask?

Not me, I just stopped being a hypocrite.  Yes, I am just as happy now.  No, 
its not "just another mask".  Tell me, what masks do you perceive?

: I have to wonder about those who can do nothing but flame, flame, flame we
: Christians.  Any attempt at serious discussion is countered with sarcasm and
: vicious attacks.  Sure, there are some Christians who attack too.  I must
: wonder what their motivations are, and how they can possibly think they're
: doing any good, and if they've considered whether Jesus would approve of
: their actions...  But to the atheist who merely flames, I must ask why?  Are
: you afraid of actual discussion?  Are you so insecure in your own beliefs
: that you must brush off any contradictory statements without even
: considering them?  And even though you may lightly flame off these comments,
: do you really consider them so incredibly stupid as to not even be worth
: considering?  That seems to me almost as bad as those types of `fundie'
: Christians that you guys are always complaining about...
:
: Just some food for thought.  Responses, compaints, comments welcome, but
: please, be mature enough not to flame.
:
:
: Love,
: The Buzzard

So far, you have not provided any evidence of your high IQ.  I have friends who
are Xians who can put together a better argument than this and they are not
full of their intelligence.  What I want is PROOF that god exists, and you
can't provide it.  Only god can and s/he is not talking.
-- 
Mike A. McAngus	(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org) | The train today to Morrow leaves today
The Truth is still the Truth           | at 8:35.  At half-past ten tomorrow is
even if you choose to ignore it.       | the time it should arrive.
                                       |                    The Kingston Trio
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc