HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:56:17 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      GOOD POINT...

 I'll have to pray 'bout that one, Bernice!!!
 I just have a feeling that there's not gonna BE any
 set denomination in Heaven... we need to learn to tolerate
 each other HERE... because Catholic, Methodist, or Baptist,
 if we're HIS CHILDREN, we'll be sharin' the same house/mansion!
 Just food for thought... like yours was for me.
 God Bless you.
 Theresa "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
From: ohoward@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Todd Howard)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Newsweek: Gays Under Fire
Date: 13 Sep 1992 07:54:33 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>I don't think they particularly want you to accept their ways; I think a lot
>of them just want to be left alone.  For some reason, many Christians aren't
>willing to do this.

>This basic refusal to leave others alone is why the Jews were expelled from
>Spain, why we had Crusades, and why the Puritans hung witches and Quakers in
>Massachusetts -- all situations in which Christians were the Bad Guys.  I do
>not know why Christians have historically opposed "shaking the dust off their
>feet", nor do I know why Christians living today continue the practice.  In
>any case, our fellow believers have done, and continue to do, lots of
>unjustifiable things.  The people we do things TO consider us the Bad Guys.
>Maybe we should stop doing those things, but we never do.

>> Homosexual acts are in direct opposition to the Christian faith.

>Then don't do any of them.

It's attitudes similar to this that worry me.  I see too many
"Gay rights" activists shouting "tolerate us!", but what they
are really saying is "condone us!".  Soon they will start to
shout "you MUST tolerate us!", but what they will be saying
(and indeed, some already say this) is "Shut up, my way
is right (therefore you are wrong)!"  People like these
love to quote the right to free speech (and choice) as it
suits their needs, but are the first to stifle the free
speech of any who disagree with them.

This doesn't apply only to a Gay lifestyle, but to abortion rights.

I feel scripture is clear on the right/wrong of a gay lifestyle, 
and individuals who continue to practice are walking a fine line.
I refuse to judge, but tend to think they are on the wrong track 
with God.

[stuff deleted]

>There are lots of other things that contribute to the `problem'.  In my view,
>the major problem is that some Christians are not satisfied with doing the
>work Christ commanded.  They fancy themselves qualified to be benevolent
>despots -- but those living under the Christians' despotism do not find it at
>all benevolent.

This is all too true, unfortunately.  How far is far enough?  A
question all Christians should ask themselves regularly.  

>Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
>"Christian, n.  One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired
> book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor."
>                                 -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
-- 
 "The statistics on death are in, and they're pretty convincing.  One out
  of every one people die."   -Unknown

Todd O. Howard (ohoward@matt.ksu.edu)
From: superc@cardinal.ksu.ksu.edu (Shawn E Chase)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: A PRAYER REQUEST
Date: 6 Sep 1992 21:13:40 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cardinal.ksu.ksu.edu


I am an associate at Wal-Mart here in Manhattan, Ks.
 Lately, many people have quit and the morale level in the store has dropped
drastically. Virtually everyone is griping and mad and frustrated at management,
most of which is due to the fact that management at this store is not what it
could be capable of. I really feel that Satan is having a hey-day here with all
the people's minds. I have to keep on constant guard against satan's mechanisms,
as there is but a small remnant of myself and 4 others who would stand up for
Jesus amongst the midst of all the promiscuous, heavily drinking college students
who comprise the brunt of the part-time crew here.
  I ask that each of you reading this pray that God grant me and my brothers and
sisters here perseverance and strength here. I also ask that you pray God will
come in and rip the devil's schemes to shreds. When we're all standing
together...it's just incredible what God does...
  Our current manager, the source of a lot of the others' anger, even rage, is
going to be leaving at the end of the month. Please pray that the manager
replacing him will be more willing to talk to the store-level people and even
(dare I say this) be willing to work with us instead of against us. 
 Taking into account the current situation of the store, the things I am
requesting here are nothing short of a miracle. However, that's what God
does....miracles. I mean, He created the whole universe and all in but mere days,
so I'm just waiting to see what He does at work.
                                            
 
-- 
Shawn E. Chase             "Live like you'll die tomorrow,
SuperC@Matt.KSU.Edu         die knowing you'll live forever."
aka Tha Hood of Good        -Rich Mullins 'Live Right'
               "I'm not having a fit...I'm having a BENEfit!!!" -Larry Lea
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:28:02 CDT
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      BGA

 I don't know if you folks would be interested in this, or not, but
 here goes.
 I've met several of you who have either played band instruments,
 or have marched in halftime shows.
 Therefore, I bring to you an invitation to become a member of
 the CHRISTIA chapter of BAND GEEKS ANONYMOUS!!!
 (BGA, as I like to call it!)
 No dues needed, (hehe....only marchin' experience/playin' experience)
 ... and some of the most HILARIOUS/EMBARRASING moments you've
 ever had.
 Any takers????
 (Brad, if you don't, I'll be surprised BIGTIME!)
 I am thankful for other band geeks who can relate to Saturday morning
 rush.
 God Bless you all!
 "G"                            /\
                               / /
                              o o   }  ......
 (That's supposed to be two eighth notes beamed plus a quarter rest...
  forgive me for not being as adept at musical symbols at Tim is!)


 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Subject: chiropractor
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:09:09 GMT

The most important thing I've gathered about chiropracters is that you REALLY
need to "comparison shop" - even moreso than with other doctors.
Recommendations from friends are good too.

-Alison
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: How to FTP On-Line Bible
From: j1w@icf.hrb.com (Doug ('Oscar') Works)
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:52:05 EST
Organization: HRB Systems, Inc.

Listfolk,

     To FTP the On-Line Bible, FTP to:

     WUARCHIVE.WUSTL.EDU

     type:

     "login anonymous"

     (they will prompt you for your E-mail address.  It's just proper
      "etiquette")

     "cd doc/bible"

     "binary"

     "ls"           (if you want to see a listing of the files)

     "prompt off"    (I think this will work on all machines)

     "mget *"       (again, I don't know if this works for everybody, but
                     it worked for me)

     "bye"          (to logout)


     If anyone has any problems, ask around or E-mail me here.  Maybe we can
     figure out what's going on.

                                                       In Him, 

                                                       Doug


P.S.  OR you could call (800) 243-7124 for more information.

P.P.S.  Version 6.0 (?) is coming out next week.  Don't know current version.

-- 
................................................................................
................................................................................
....    |         "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep,             ....
....  --+--              to gain what he cannot lose."                      ....
....    |                                           - Jim Elliot            ....
....    |                                                                   ....
.......................  Internet: j1w@icf.hrb.com .............................
................................................................................
    J. Douglas Works * HRB Systems, Inc. * State College, PA  16804  USA


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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:58:55 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: PROPHECY FULFILLMENT
              12 Sep 1992 22:52:18 GMT from <ca850@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Steve D.,

I think that perhaps you mean Brian Cobb and me (Lon Mendelsohn).  Wolfgang
Hutter (at least so far as I remember) has not involved himself in the
discussion on biblical prophecy and its fulfillment.

You have made some good points about the apparent problems of the way in
which the NT interprets and applies OT prophecy.  I think that the type/
antitype model for understanding the fulfillment of prophecy can help us
to understand what's happening here.  As Brian stated, it appears that
the ancients believed that it was possible for prophecies to have more
than one fulfillment, i.e., a single prophecy can be applied to more
than one event.  While many prophecies in both the OT and NT obviously
refer to some event which occurred shortly after the giving of those
prophecies, it was understood that many prophecies would find their
ultimate fulfillment in the events surrounding the birth, life, death,
resurrection, and ultimate return of Jesus.

I think we sort of have to rely on the Bible to show us how many
prophecies are meant to be fulfilled.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:09:18 CDT
Comments:     In-Reply-To: note of Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:58:04 EDT from
From:         Stuart <K119TO@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      New Age in Schools

From:   Stuart T Oliver
MAKS,
Regarding Ankerberg's New Age in Schools: One vote for hearing about it.
My wife and I cut off our cable (spending too much time in front of the
T.V.) and I don't have an opportunity to see good programming like Ankerberg.
Hope you will, and thanks for all the good informational posts you do provide.
(By the way, how fast can you type?  I can't imagine how much time it would
 take for me to post some of the  things you do)





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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:37:46 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      obligations and sincerity

Tim King writes (I paraphrase freely):

 > I understand the Roman Catholic position to be the following:
 >   (A) If a Christian knows he must confess to a priest, he must
 > do so.
 >   (B) If he cannot do so (desert island) his desire to do so is
 > enough.
 >   (C) If he sincerely thinks he need not (protestant) then he
 > need not.
 >
 > How does that differ from the following sequence?
 >   (C) In order to be forgiven, one need only confess to God.
 >   (A) Those who feel the need to talk to a priest should be
 > encouraged to do so.
 >   (B) If one feels the need and cannot, he should be assured that
 > there is no need to.

If I have correctly understood Tim, he thinks the position as stated
makes the need for confession a purely subjective matter. I
disagree. Consider the following argument:

     (A) If I have borrowed my neighbor's hoe, and I see it lying
around and remember that it is his, I have an obligation to return
it, and am a thief if I do not.
     (B) If I have borrowed my neighbor's hoe, and I see it lying
around and remember that it is his, and cannot immediately return it
(he is out of town, I have broken my leg and am confined, a severe
hailstorm makes it dangerous to go outside), then my failure to
return it promptly does not make me a thief.
     (C) If I have borrowed my neighbor's hoe, and I see it lying
around and honestly confuse it with my own recently purchased hoe,
and am unaware that I possess any borrowed and unreturned property,
then my failure to return it does not make me a thief.
     (D) Therefore, there is no objective obligation to return
borrowed property, or to respect any supposed property rights of
others in any way. If I see a hoe lying around, or an automobile,
and I feel all right about taking or keeping it, then there is
nothing wrong with doing so. If, on the other hand, taking it would
cause me to lose sleep, then I am better off not taking it. But how
I feel is all that counts. There are no objective moral standards or
obligations.

The fact that someone is unaware of an obligation (or is simply
unable to meet the obligation) may very well render his failure
excusable. But it does not mean that the obligation is not a real
and objective one.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Tradition (was Re: Second parousia in the past?)
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:19:57 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <1992Sep13.215333.21682@doug.cae.wisc.edu> nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:

>To be more specific, I will change it to the authenticity of the *concept*
>of Tradition. The verse I quoted earlier and a bunch of other ones that
>were posted earlier, *prove beyond doubt* that there were teachings that were 
>orally passed. What was written is a subset of what was passed on by the
>Apostles. So in no way "Sola Scriptura" can be justified. 

Then I agree with you, except for one (perhaps important) consideration.
It's not clear how we can know which of the zillions of teachings said to
be apostolic really are so, and which are incorrect hearsay. The books of
the Bible have the advantage of being pretty reliable documents originally
written by the apostles (and by others, very close to the events they are
writing about). I would say that other writings of early Christians should
be treated with considerable respect too, but not in the same way as the
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:55:44 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Homosexuality (again)
              Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK

Angela,

       The whole problem didn't start at "Live and Let Live".  It started when
someone (or at least this last bout) asked about being Christian and Homosexual
and it being ok.  I have no rights judging the non-Christian doing his or her
own thing, but if asked, I am called to tell other Christians what the bible
says.  Or if not asked, although I am timid at rebuking, I should still do it
according to scripture.  I said asked but actually I think the person stated
that it was ok to be Christian and a Homosexual.  This is a tiresome subject
but I wanted to clear this part of it up.  THere were several statements about
judgment being made by Christians but as far as other Christians are concerned,
this is a duty as long as we use Scripture and prayer and the Holy Spirit as
our guide.  THIS IS CONCERNING CHRISTIANS AMONG CHRISTIANS ONLY.  As far as the
non-Christian goes then we do not have to judge them.   We can pray for them
and hope for them and love them without condoning what they do.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:49:00 EST
From:         "Lauren H. Arango" <LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bishop Spong

Sorry for the late response; I am *so* behind!  I've really been swamped
here at work in these first weeks of the semester!

Lon writes,

>Although I am not an Anglican/Episcopalian, I happen to have a copy of
>the Book of Common Prayer.  One of the services described therein is the
>Form of Ordaining or Consecrating a Bishop.  In this service, the candidate
>is called upon to "promise conformity and obedience to the Doctrine,
>Discipline, and Worship of the Protestant Episcopal Church."  I would assume
>that this means (among other things) conformity to the Articles of Religion,
>also listed in the Book of Common Prayer.  Assuming that Bishop Spong's
>views on scripture and other fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith
>have been accurately represented, I cannot see how he could be seen to be
>teaching in faithfulness to the promises that the Prayer Book says he made
>at his consecration.

Lon, I have precisely that same problem.  And I don't have an answer for you.
If he held his current views when he was ordained, I don't see how he could
have honestly made the promise.  And if his views have evolved since he
became a bishop, I don't see how he in good faith could continue saying
the Nicean Creed....for much of what he says and what is in the Creed seem
to be at odds.

People have asked me why the Episcopal Church doesn't simply un-seat him....
and I don't have an answer for that, either.  Church politics, perhaps?
In the same way that it is difficult or often impossible to get medical
doctors to step forward and go against one of their own who they know to
be medically incompetant, it is perhaps difficult or impossible to get
the powers that be in the church to step forward and make an attempt to
remove Spong.  (This is purely my own surmising....like I said above, I
have no answers.)

Perhaps they feel that there is less adverse publicity in allowing him
to stay (and suffering occasional embarrassment because of him) than
stirring up a political hornet's nest by trying to oust him?

I don't know....I wish someone could give *me* the answer.

                                        Lauren
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:17:42 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      title point 13a.

 The return of Christ...
 Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:42:55 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Holiness/Righteousness

Jesse,

I think that you can run into similar problems with your definition of
holiness.  If you look at the etymology of the word in Hebrew and Greek
(not in English -- the etymology is completely different), I think that
you will find that the root meaning of the word has to do with being set
apart, i.e., seperated or perhaps dedicated for the sake of God's use or
service.  I think that it is a mis-application of the word to use it as
a synonymn for righteousness.  I'm not saying that you're doing this,
but many Christians make that mistake.  Christians are holy not because of
any personal or imputed righteousness and not even because God has imputed
or imparted of His holiness to us.  We are holy because God has chosen us,
because we are His (1Pet.2:9-10).  Both the OT and NT exhortations to
holiness on the part of God's people have to do with separating ourselves
from the world and dedicating ourselves to God's service.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Catholic or Ignorant?
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:27:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <CHRISTIA%92091113513879@ASUACAD.BITNET>, U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET (Bernice Tennant) writes...
> 
> I am not Catholic and I am not ignorant.  What does that make me?

apologies....

	according to the RCC, which I am no longer, you are
	"invincibly ignorant." 

 en agape,
 Bob 

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:08:11 -0400
From:         "Toni J. Benner" <tjbenner@COLBY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chiropractor's

Yvette, I go to a chiropractor for my back and for other illnesses.
He treats some minor diseases with natural medication, rather than prescription
drugs, and I feel better about this. He is a Christian, so I feel I can
trust him. He also doesn't have me coming back for a lot of sessions -
usually it is just 1 or 2. Of course if you have never been, it usually
takes  more. He treated my adrenal glands one time with natural adrenal
extract, and it saved my sanity. No other dr. would have even noticed that
my adrenal glands were hardly working. It was affecting me mentally, and he
said  that my mother's breakdown during menopause could have been caused
by a low adrenal output. In two months  I was back to normal. I would
recommend asking around and finding one you can trust.
Toni
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:54:43 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 9/8

"That Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will get what God promised for his
people.  This will bring full freedom to the people who belong to God, to bring
praise to God's glory" (Ephesians 1:14).

"This is the church that God bought with his own death" (Acts 20:28).

"He gave himself for us; he died to free us from all evil.  He died to make us
pure people who belong only to him -- people who are always wanting to do good
things" (Titus 2:14).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:56:06 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: HOW are we RIGHTEOUS in Christ?

Hmmm.
	We are called to be holy.  Separated. To live perfect lives before God.
Doesn't that mean that we _ can _ be holy?

What does it mean to be holy?  Whether I agree or not with you on whether
holiness is inherent with God alone depends on what it means to be holy.

>Angels are called "holy" but they are NOT inherently so.

It seems that you are saying that holiness is imputed to angels???

>All Truth, all Light, all righteousness, all holiness is ... inherent with the
>Lord.
	Well, yeah.  But that doesn't mean that He can't create something with
the attributes of truth, light, righteousness, and holiness.

>All that is beyond His metaphysical being is derived from Him.

Huh?  I don't understand "beyond His metaphysical being."

>The angels do not sin, for example, not because they have inherent power
>over it, but that God Himself keeps them free of it.

I don't see any reason to believe this.  _ We _ are powerless over sin because
we have a sinful nature.  Angels don't have such a nature as far as we know (at
least the ones who did not fall).  So they do not sin because they have decided
not to disobey God, and they do not have a nature that predisposes them to
disobedience.

>Jesse Carnes

Mark
Drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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