HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: The History of the Cello on Record
Keywords: cello
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:18:38 GMT

In article <39230@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> jwelsh@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Welsh) writes:
>This week's Time magazine says Pearl records has/will soon release a
>six-CD set, The recorded cello: The history of the cello on record.
>The review (10/12/92, page 91) made me zip around town, but no
>record stores have it or knew anything about it. Has anyone heard
>more about it, or heard _it_? It's probably more money than I make
>in a week, so I'm shopping for opinions. Thanks!

From October's Gramophone, P117 the Pavilion Records (Pearl's parent
company) full-page ad:

'The recorded cello - the history of the cello on record. The history
of the recoprding of the world's finest cellists up to the early
post-war years, including Casals, Rostropovich, Rose, Suggia,
Piatigorsky, Mainardi, Sadlo, Knushevitsky, Cassado, Miller, Salmond,
de Machula, Shafran, Marechal, Navarra, Harrison, Sala, Feuermann,
Bazelarie, Pleeth, Fournier, Harvey, Hoelscher, Hekking, Grunfeld,
Barbirolli, van Biene, Tortelier, Squire, Klengel, Sharpe, Grummer,
Becker, Foldesy. In the six CDs of these two volumes can be savoured
the cello traditions of Europe, Russia and America (Vol I) and
Britain, germany, France and Belgium (Vol II). From the incomparable
collection of keith Harvey and with notes by Tully Potter. GEMM VolI
CDS9981-3 Vol II GEMM CDS 9984-6'

Geographically it's a bit suspect (surely Germany France and Belgium
are *in* Europe, even if Britain thinks it's not?). Sounds
interesting, especially as I've never even *heard* of half thos names.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beatles and the canon
Date: 14 Oct 1992 16:21:34 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

In article <CB.92Oct14135817@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>Roger, you've previously said that the Beatles consitute something like
>a modern canon, and I've been wondering about this topic in general.  My
>daughter and her friend seem to know the Beatles as well as we oldsters
>do, but I know people in their 20s and 30s who don't know their songs at
>all.

I have one funny/sad anecdote along these lines - I'm sure others have
many similar ones. A friend of mine was working in a record store in the
early 80's when a couple of teeny-boppers came up to him looking for
Sgt. Pepper.

"The Beatles or the Bee-Gees?" my friend asked.

"The Beatles did a Sgt. Pepper too?!" they replied, astonished.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: royg@netcom.com (Roy H. Gordon)
Subject: Re: price of CDs (was Re: EMI price increase)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 01:15:32 GMT

> No, one company could NOT simply lower its price and get all the
> customers. That only works for those commodities that are pretty
> much the same from company to company.  I may decide to buy blank
> tapes, for example, from the company that has the cheapest.  By and
> large, Sony, Fuji, Maxell, TDK, etc. all do a pretty decent job
> of making blank tapes, and I'll buy whichever is on sale.

It may not even work when the products are the "same".  

About a decade ago there was a suit brought against cereal
manufacturers for price fixing.  They won.  It turns out they all pegged
their prices to the largest of the companies, Kellogs, I believe, but
maybe General Mills.  (I'll assume Kellogs in what follows.)

Their reasoning was the following:  if we sell lower, Kellogs will find out
immediately and nearly "instantly" lower their prices to match.  Therefore,
there's no sense in selling lower (or higher if Kellog's won't move their
price up).

Anyway, according to what I remember reading (it was in one of those
interesting but seemingly endless New Yorker articles) they were sued
for collusion or price fixing but won when it could not be demonstrated
that the companies had explicitly engaged in collusion, by telephone
calls, for instance.   I seem to remember that there was in fact little
attempt to even prove this type of explicit collusion.  The government's
contention was that the extent of anti-competitive pricing was ipso
facto sufficient evidence of price fixing (if, again, I remember correctly).

What this shows to me is that the criteria for price fixing is clearly
outmoded in this electronics information age, for anti-competitive
pricing surely did occur.

This does annoy me when I purchase CDs, but since I don't buy too many
(although, as another poster pointed out, this may be one reason why)
it's not a big deal.  However, with two young children it bothers me a
lot more with respect to cold cereals, which my kids devour, and I like too,
and which I regard as much less of a luxury.  Yes, there are substitutes, but
you know what I mean.

I have no answers, but I think it's necessary to arrive at a
more contemporary criteria of price fixing, for the current practice
as followed in some industries is clearly anti-competitive.
From: caas12@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Turangalila in the UK, where and when?
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:25:28 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

In article <13035@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, hla@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Helen Ashman) writes:
> Hi all,
> 
> It's rumoured (in a concert program) that the BBCSO are going to
> perform Turangalila with Joanna MacGregor sometime soon in the UK.
> But I rang BBC and they know nothing about it.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about this? Where, when ... 
> 
> Helen.

I don't know about the BBCSO doing this, but the Royal Scottish Orchestra
will be doing Turangalila in January with JMacG, so she must be working it
into her repertory. I don't know who the conductor is, but I doubt if it is
the music director Walter Weller.
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 15 Oct 92 03:36:37 GMT
 <1992Oct14.145821.9242@Princeton.EDU> 
 <1992Oct14.212206.7763@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Oct15.000010.474@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Oct15.000010.474@Princeton.EDU>
roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

> He had hardly any "classical" REPERTOIRE to
> compete with.
The classics then were different than the ones we have now. People
regarded the greats that they (Verdi et al.) were compared to
differently than the greats today. Example: Rossini's Otello was
considered a classic before Verdi eclipsed him as it was when Rossini
eclipsed Paisello's Barber.

Verdi's rivals were far more numerous and talented than those that
stand in Glass' way. If Glass can compose really masterful stuff then
the opera lovers will want to see it and it will be incorporated. Can
you compare the Voyage to Tosca, La Boheme, or Turandot? When you can
then we'll have modern opera.
From: simion@iveuncc.unive.it (Marco Simionato)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Pianist info
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:49:23 GMT
Organization: University of Venezia (Italy)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9X-XXDate: Fri, 9 Oct 92 17:52:49 GMTLines: 14

In article <ld6a2nINNa9a@news.bbn.com> Ray Yuen, ryuen@BBN.COM writes:
>Is the pianist Arturo Benediti Michaelangeli (sp?) still alive?  If so,
where
>is he spending most of his time?

Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, called "Ciro" by his friends in Italy,
is still alive. He performed two concerts with Celibidache and the MPO
two weeks ago. In a few days he'll be playing Schumann's piano concerto
in Tokyo.
I can't exactly remember the small Swiss town where he lives, I only
know his house is on the same road as Ashkenazy's.
As to what he's doing most of the time, well, he's a very weird person.
He surely spends most of his time practicing and working on his
instruments together with his faithful technicians.
From: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Favorite Beethoven piano sonatas!!!
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:43:22 GMT
Reply-To: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: bassclar

In article 16184@husc3.harvard.edu, vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu (Vinh Nguyen) writes:
>Op. 28 (Pastoral) is a melodically gorgeous sonata, but it
>can get a bit bland and sing-song after a while.  By contrast, Op. 31
>no. 3 is one of the most neglected and underrated sonatas, I'm tempted
>to displace Op. 31 no. 2 (Tempest) in its favor, but this one is too
>classically oriented to challenge the new grounds broken by the latter.
>But still, it is among the most interstingly organized sonatas, with
>a sprightly rhythm that is quite infectiously cheerful. 


Yes!  Beethoven's Opus 31 No. 3 is wonderful.  I remember in my
college days an excellent pianist I knew was working on its last 
movement and came to the realization for the first time that Beethoven
sometimes INTENDED to be violently funny.  When the pianist stopped
fighting the tendency of that movement to sound like Rossini-at-his-best, 
it fell into place delightfully.

--James Langdell        jamesc@eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystems      Mountain View, Calif.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Oct10.202115.1713@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:00:14

In article <1992Oct10.202115.1713@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> benjamin@nebula.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>I believe that the 5th and 6th Suites were written for a cello with 
>*5* strings.  MUCH easier.  :-)

  For the 6th this is true. For the 5th you just have to tune the strings
  differently so that they are C G d g instead of C G d a.
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:00:25 GMT
Reply-To: gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor)
Organization: Heurikon Corporation, Madison, WI

Gregg Jaeger enters into discourse with that young arbiter of taste,
Mr. Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.
>
>>More Glass? What have we done to deserve this. He is a second rate
>>movie composer with his mediocre orchestration and obscene
>>derivativeness (Brief history of time) his opera about Columbus is set
>>partly in space with aliens (I doubt that will enter the pantheon of
>>Great artistic achievements) he was voted most Boring Composer by
>>concergoers for three straight years and I'll take Aida over aknaten
>>and pure silence over Einstien on the beach

>With this sort of reaction to new composers it's no wonder one cannot
>find an interesting program in this country anymore. Man!

But Gregg, it's these heady blasts of high-rev  from our youthful readers
make this place so much fun! Poor Brian's off sulking in silence [NOT
you-know-who's, though] and there's not much of anyone around these 
days to fire off the occasional blast of poorly punctuated invective
stripped of any references we can follow up for the sake of compactness
[mediocre compared to whom? derivative of whom in an obscene way? voted
on by whom?]. Besides, he's a defender of that paradigm of the dead
white Yurrupean male Verdi - seems like there's fewer of them around
these days. Let's hear an article about that poseur Corigliano or something
we can *really* sink our teeth into. Minimalism's a real style now and
old hat to boot. Why look - that McComb idiot's been posting loooong
introductory stuff on that navel-gazer *Scelsi*, who makes Glass look
a piker....imagine....whole *movements* of an orchestra playing a *single*
note! Aux barricades!

Off to the ICMC,
Gregory

--
I am so lonely for the twentieth century,/for the deeply felt, obscene
graffiti/of armed men and the beautiful bridges/that make them so small and
carry them/into the hearts of cities written like words/across nothing,/the
dense void history became in my beautiful century/gtaylor/608-828-3385
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:58:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Oct15.195856.10546
 <12OCT199212061044@rover.uchicago.edu> 
 <1992Oct12.160341.1@venus.ycc.yale.edu> <Bw19Hp.Ixz@comp.vuw.ac.nz> 
 <1992Oct13.023341.29133@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Oct15.020427.15266@slc.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Oct15.020427.15266@slc.com>
marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:

> Verdi. Opera. Feh.

That was very eloquent. Did you listen to many Churchill speeches or
are you just naturally gifted. Now tell me what does the composer of
Otello, Aida the Requiem and Falstaff have to learn from your
criticism? What profound things (not that "Feh" isn't profound enough)
do you have against one of the greatest geniuses of all time? Any
substantive thoughts? Perhaps in multi-syllables? Whom do you prefer?
Why don't you like Verdi?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Barenboim's new Bruckner cycle
Keywords: Bruckner, Barenboim
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:34:45 GMT

A postscript to my previous posting: apart from the booklet's attempting
to persuade us that the 5th is essentially second (or even
third)-rate work, it also contains the following, in the anonymous history of
the BPO:
	'At the end of the Second World War, its principal conductors
included Leo Bachard, Sergiu Celibidache and Wilhelm Furtwaengler, the
latter of whom had already directed the orchestra in the 1930s'

and then goes on to a paean of praise about Karajan.

This is revisionism of the worst kind. It ignores the fact that
Furtwaengler was the chief conductor of the BPO from late 1922 - after
the death of Nikisch - until January 1945, when he fled to Switzerland
with the Gestapo on his heels, and again from May 1947 (after his
denazification proceeedings had finally been completed) until November
1954 when he died. Not only that, but as part of the package put
together by the German, Prussian and Berlin municipal governments in
1930 to save the BPO from bankruptcy (hard though this is to
contemplate now) WF signed a 10-year contract, which is why, amongst
other things, he gave up the VPO, Bayreuth, and the opportunity of
succeeding Toscanini when he left the NYPO.

To dismiss the most important and self-sacrificing conductor in the
orchestra's history in these few mealy-mouthed words strikes me as
utterly digusting. No wonder the writer remains anonymous!

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Beatles and the canon
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:39:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.233024.257@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis) writes:
>"White Christmas"?  "Yesterday"?  Sorry, the number one top-selling single on 
>the Hit Parade list is "Hey Jude".

Hey Jude was #1 for 12 weeks, it's true.  WC sold the most sheet music,
I think; and Yesterday has been recorded most often.  OK?

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis)
Subject: Re: DEBATE for those who are interested
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:25:13 GMT

In article 32397, rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson) claims that Andrew 
Lloyd Weber's music is "pretentious" and that he "fails at 'popular' music."  
I'm not sure what is supposed to be pretentious about his music.  If ever 
anything is pretentious it's a remark like "Its [sic] so stupid, a child could 
write it."  Pretentious?  I find it very lyrical... excellent to listen to, and
quite rewarding to play.  What's so "pretentious" about "Memories", "Don't Cry 
for Me, Argentina", "Music of the Night", etc?   Having performed concert band 
transcriptions of ALW music before many audiences for several years, I can tell
you that this music is some of the most well-received by audiences.  Isn't the 
purpose of musical theater to entertain?  The long runs of all ALW's shows 
certainly would indicate that he does just that.  Has he ever aspired achieve 
the "status" of "grand opera" with any of his works?  So why is he pretentious?
Personally I find most traditional Italian opera to be the epitome of 
shallowness and pretentiousness, as is a slavish adoration of some operatic 
status quo by small minded people who think that any deviation from their 
definition of an artistic norm is beneath contempt.  Flame away..... :-)
-- 
=>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+{*}+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <=
+>=>             "The way to write American music is simple.             <=<+
=>+>=>       All you have to do is be an American and then write       <=<+<=
+>=>+>=>        any kind of music you wish."  -Virgil Thomson        <=<+<=<+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Toch Fugue
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:08:42 GMT

Ernst Toch:	Fuge aus der Geographie (1930) fur sprechenden Chor
		Der Junge Chor Aachen / Fritz ter Wey
		in the collection "Thie Thirties"
		Thorofon-Capella CTH 2044

The CD contains works by Schonberg, Blacher, Egk, Hindemith, Pepping, and
Paul Juan.  There is a companion CD ("The Twenties").

 

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Subject: Re: Bach Cello Suites on Period Instrument: Rec. Wanted
Keywords: Bach, Cello Suites
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 21:17:53 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.164533.9425@cs.umb.edu> jboor@mote.cs.umb.edu (Joan Boorstein) writes:
>I have only heard Wispelwey's recording (in part) on the radio -- my 
>reaction at the time was that it was not as good as my cherished Bylsma -- 
>confirmed by listening to my Bylsma LPs again -- I wish I could remember
>what I specifically preferred about the Bylsma --- the lilting rhythms maybe?

He just has a freedom of expression on all elements of phrasing (timing,
accents, dynamics) and a clear concept of what he wants to do...

>I have also recently heard part of a recording of Wispelwey doing the 
>Beethoven Sonatas for Cello & Piano -- I want to hear this again -- 
>has Bylsma done these? if so, who plays the fortepiano?

I have one volume and I will check.  I have a few other by Byslma,
but the solo Bach is the strongest.  The next thing would be the Bach flute
works by Bruggen with Gustav Leohnardt (sp).   They are also very free
with the phrasing, it is like improvisation.  I liken it to the finest 
jazz bands, like Miles Davis at the Plugged Nickel.

Is it just my imagination, or are solo pieces by Bach the pieces where
classical musicians get the most liberties to play it they way they
want.  If you compare all the different people doing solo Bach, even
across different instruments, from Gould to Heiffezt to Szigeti to
Bylsma to Loehnard (sp), there seems to be a greater variance than any
other composer or body of pieces.

Granted, I don't have as many different interpreters of say Beethoven
piano, but the ones I do have sound closer alike than in the Bach.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: shayE@moravian.edu (Earl Shay)
Subject: Re: pierrot lunaire
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 16:45:04 EDT

In <Bvz6Br.E3v@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer) writes:

>I am looking for a version of Pierrot lunare, op 21, by Schoenberg.  I
>already have the version by the Budapest Chamber Orchestra/ Erika
>Sziklay, soprano.  There is much I like about this version, but think
>the vocal solo could be more convincing.

>Any suggestions?

Jeff, I have a pristine 78 rpm recording of Pierrot if you're interested :-)
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker
Date: 17 Oct 92 03:27:07 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct17.023049.5369@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>In article <Z8qPsB1w165w@artsnet.UUCP>
>mgresham@artsnet.UUCP (Mark Gresham) writes:

>> Does that mean that in 30 years people will re-examine the music
>> and say it wasn't so bad after all? :-)  (That is, if it IS a repeat
>> of what happened with Anthony and Cleopatra.)

>Oh yeah you're right, I see new productions and recordings of A&C
>everywhere I go. 

Trouble is, you don't *go* anywhere but the Met, whose commitment to
new music is well-known...

No, there aren't a lot of revivals -- a few, though -- but I wouldn't
be surprised if there were more.  

>And how many forgotten unoriginal pieces can you say
>"Well, it wasn't so bad after all?" (It certainly wasn't good!)  

Thanks for setting us straight.  I assume you're going to post a
list of all the "good" pieces now so the rest of us can stop wondering?
As I said, you can do better than this.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hudu@well.sf.ca.us (Scott Marley)
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:51:25 GMT


>>What works come to mind as untranslatable and why?

Given a good translator and a willingness to sacrifice line-by-line accuracy
as long as the all the right points are made, I don't think there's much of
anything that can't be translated well.  I've translated a few things--even
a few songs from the Carmina Burana--and while each work offers its own
challenges and obstacles, I've yet to see anything that was inherently
untranslatable.

Translating words set to music is tough because you can't play around with
the accents much at all: by and large the stresses have to fall *exactly*
where the composer put them.  So you don't have much flexibility.

I do think it's very, very difficult to preserve line-by-line accuracy,
rhyme scheme, and make the words fall nicely on the notes all at the same
time.  Something has to give.  In my own translations, I give up
line-by-line accuracy where necessary, on the theory that the original
writer him- or herself would not have hesitated to change the meaning of a
line here or there in order to make it all work, as long as the meaning of
the whole was preserved.

If you allow that flexibility, I think an effective translation of just
about anything is possible.

Scott Marley
hudu@well.sf.ca.us
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:41:42 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1992Oct13.022331.28418@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>More Glass? What have we done to deserve this. He is a second rate
>movie composer with his mediocre orchestration and obscene
>derivativeness (Brief history of time) his opera about Columbus is set
>partly in space with aliens (I doubt that will enter the pantheon of
>Great artistic achievements) he was voted most Boring Composer by
>concergoers for three straight years and I'll take Aida over aknaten
>and pure silence over Einstien on the beach

With this sort of reaction to new composers it's no wonder one cannot
find an interesting program in this country anymore. Man!




Gregg




-- 
Gregg Jaeger    (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu)          VOTE PEROT  VOTE PEROT       
If you think the Republicans screwed up the country, can you afford to
see what the Democrats will do!   ->BEWARE OF SLICK-WILLY CLINTON!!<-