From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pagan-Christians(was Re: Animal Sacrifice (was: Re: Raising
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:40:22 GMT

: >		2) To believe in Satan, you have to beleive Christ(or God) of
: >		   the Bible.
: very true. however, according to the jews, christ means messiah, the end of the 
: world, their saving grace, etc. 

Why do you have to believe this?

: >		3) If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian.
: read above statement.

The proper answer is "No - you are not necessarily a Christian, just because
you believe in Christ".

: >		4) Therefore, Satanist are Christians(or Anti-Christians if you
: >		   prefer).
: This is also true. Since satan was a creation of christians to help scare
: the locals into believing that pagans were cruel, evil peoples. *grins*
: And, since only christians believe in Lucifer/satan/THE devil, this statement
: is true

Not true. First you have to define what "Satanist" means - there are quiet a
few varieties. Then you have to show that just because a person believes in
one deity of a pantheon, that they must believe in all of them. This can be
shown to be untrue for just about every religion I can think of, including
the many sects of Christianity.

When you have a religion that has absolutes, such as good/bad, then if
these people (or their souls) go to some special place after death - you
need to be able to separate the good from the bad. Otherwise there would
be no religious reason to follow the tenets of the religion. In a religion
which has an absolute good ruler over the "good place", then it is not
too surprising that a ruler should be invented for the "bad place".

The same is true for happenings during a person's lifetime. If you have
an all-good deity to thank for the good things that happen, then you need
an all-bad deity to blame for the things that go wrong. After all, we all
know that a person cannot be responsible for the good/bad things that
happen to them.

: >		5) Then how can Satanist be pagans?
: Satanists cannot be pagans, unless they are pagan-christians.

Once again - why not? What gives you, or me, the right to say who can
belong to the grouping of pagan? Or Christian? Or Satanist? Or Muslim?

: >		6) Or are there just a lot of pagan-christians running around
: >		   that I don't know about?
: actually, there are quite a few pagan-christian types. (my friend who quoted all of this to me is one) they are the kind who believe in the christian god, but
: not all of the christian dogma! (sound familiar?)  

If they don't believe in all of the dogma, why do they have to believe in all
of the deities? I also am uncomfortable with the broad generalization of your
definition of "pagan-christian". It would include all members of the Judaic
and Muslim faiths.

... deleted ...

: general disclaimer: i am pagan, tending to wiccan shamanism (i combined them, 
: not unusual) and do not believe in the christian god nor THE devil, nor Lucifer,
: etc...these previous statements are fact. i (and a good christian-pagan type friend of mine) has done some research into this and have come up with these facts.

Sorry - just like what I have written. Your statements are not necessarily   
fact. They are statements of what you believe to be fact, an entirely different
matter.

: i recently quoted all this to a person trying to bible thump/fundie me and they
: shut him up really quick.

Surprising - usually they start spouting noise about such a person being the
"spawn of the Devil" and other such nonsense. They seldom seem to shut up
until you leave their presence. Since what you had stated is only an opinion,
I don't see why any of it would deter a person who knows absolutely that they
know the absolute truth e.g. the facts.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan