HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: changhp@engin.umich.edu (Hsiou-Ping Chang)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 04:56:06 EST
Organization: The University of Michigan
Reply-To: echang@engin.umich.edu
Originator: changhp@fijan.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Dec29.000001.29060@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tom Li) writes:
> 
> Therefore, I would rather stay "status quo" until things become more clear.
> (And "status quo" does not mean we stand still there are many things we can 
> do). Before then, I think Taiwan government should legalize the TI activities 
                                                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
> people have rights to know if independence is a right thing or we may really
> need it someday... in the meantime the government should speed up the culture 
> and trade etc exchange with Mainland China and establish air and sea links 
> with China ...etc so that people in Taiwan can see if unification possible. 

	I think the key is to legalize the TI activities so that people can
openly discuss TI and unification, and compare the advantages and disadvantages.
Only after fully discussion/debate in public can the decision become more
and more clear--status quo, TI, or unification.
 If people have to choose, they have the rights to
understand the problem before they make their decisions.  

	Will mere discussion of TI bring in the invasion of PRC? 
Warning maybe, invasion definitely not. 

In a democratic society, open-minded discussion/debate is a feasible way to
communicate ideas, to identify the difficulties, to eliminate the hostility,
and to find a solution that meet the interests of the majority in the society.

The current situation is that TI can only be discussed informally; the full
advantages and disadvantages of TI and unification have not yet been compared.
The general view of the public is unclear (see the Subject line) or presumably
prefers "status quo."  "Status quo" is not a bad idea at all, but I think it
would be better if it is the result of fully debate/discussion. 

When, under what conditions, and how should we decide to unify with China?
When, under what conditions, and how should we decide to go independence?
Under what conditions, and how long should we remain stay "status quo"? 
These questions cannot be answered without fully public debates and discussion.

The answers to these questions are the long-term plans that our government
should have in order to meet the challenge of the changing world.   
The answers are also the key to eliminate the growing hostility between
the Pro-unification groups and Pro-TI groups, because if the public has
answers to these questions, the goal is OUR idea not a particular groups'.
Taiwan needs to progress; different ideas won't slow her down, but
hostility certainly will.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: Re: We Taiwanese had chosen our own legislators!
Organization: National Cheng Kung University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 23:01:41 GMT
X-Posted-From: sun3.ee.ncku.edu.tw
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec24.104828.4189@vax.cns.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:

>In article <23DEC92.10500591@twncu865.ncu.edu.tw>, u333057@twncu865.ncu.edu.tw writes:
>>    The legislature general election had been ended last Sat.The KMT lost this election & the DPP won this election.Taiwanese had chosen which government they like by their own.When will you Chinese could chose your own government really by your own?

>       ** It is already chosen, long time ago.

But it's not meaningful, I think.

WenHsiang Lin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: hhwu@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (eric.wu)
Subject: Re: Huan-Ju-Lo2-Ju3 <was: World Journal>
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:22:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.090341.25656@netcom.com> jch@netcom.com (Jack Hwang) writes:
>
>Why I subscribe WJ?  I want to read Huan-Ju-Lo2-Ju3 and my wife want to
>read the family section.
>
>Jack>

Because many praised the milestone HJLJ set in the martial art fiction
history, I tried many times to read his novels.  However, I could never
go very far.  In his work, some characters seem to come out of Fon 
Sern2 Bun3 and the story telling style is quite fragmented.  Looks like 
a bunch of short stories thrown together.

However, if many people said that HJLJ's work is good, they cannot all
be wrong.  What do you like about HJLJ?  I want to be converted.  Gu
Long died, Jin Yong quitted, and the new kong fu novels that line the 
walls of book renting stores are light porns in disguise.

Eric
From: An-Ly Yao <anlyyao@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Date: 26 Dec 92 08:45 PST
Subject: Chinese School in Seoul
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1474900025:000:341
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!anlyyao    Dec 26 08:45:00 1992


In Seoul there still is a Chinese school and a "KMT building" in the neighbour-
hood of the Chinese embassy.

Does anybody know, which legal means the Korean gouvernment has to get these
institutions out of the control of friends of Taiwan? Are there any attempts
(legal, illegal, political)?

just curious,
   Goetz Kluge

Seoul 1992/12/26

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve C. Chen!!!)
Subject: Re: Stereotype of TIers
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:26:18 GMT

changhp@engin.umich.edu (Hsiou-Ping Chang) writes:


>In article <Bzoyqs.KqG@austin.ibm.com>, tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee) writes:
>> 
>> What a joke! TIers want to be treated equally with what Sun did.
>> To me, those terrors (by TIers, of course) involved many people's lives,
>> families, and friends, how could you say it so lightly? Do you have any
>> human lineage in your body? Just let me understand your mentality
>> behind this. You speak like a CNP spy, don't you?
>> 
>	Could you give the netters some examples to sustain your
>arguments you seemed to imply that MOST (if not ALL) of the TIers,
>Pro-TIers are terrorists.  
>Please cite your resources and evidences.  I suspect the stereotyped
>terrorist image of TIers has been the product of the KMT propaganda.
>If TIers are terrorists, why so many victims of so called "Formosa Event"
>get elected in the past elections, including the recent one Mr. Shih Ming-Teh?
>	As Taiwan progresses toward democracy, it is very important to
>tolerate different opinions and support the right to propose different ideas.
>Please don't label some people as terrorists easily just because they
>have different views from you.  

>> I would suggest you bravely dig out the past terrors did
>> by the TI terrorists. That will prevent you from being small-minded and
>> please no re-run of the CNP terrors. We all know too well about it,
>> what we lack of knowledge is the terrors by TI.

>	I would suggest you bravely dig out the past terrors did by
>KMT, although I believe some of my friends who are KMT are not bad at all.
> 
>> -- 
>> /* The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.         *\
>>  * Take care and have a nice day.                                            *
>> \* Ty Lee                                                                    */
Hmmm...I'm 19 and how come I feel like I have heard more terrible things done
by the KMT (from relatives and family friends) ?  Not to mention 228...what 
about all the horror KMT underground police stories I have heard??  (or did 
those adults just make up the stories??)  Well someone please confirm this...
I really want to find out since I am one of those brained washed children under
KMT government..."Cheng Kai-shek is great!!  Jian kon (grandpa) is the greatest
man in the 'Republic of China'"...it's not till I came to America and found
in my high school text calling Cheng Kai-shek a "dictator."  Boy was I confused
...I had to go up to my teacher to tell him that the text is wrong...but a book
written in the free awesome wonderful country of the United States finally con-
vinced me...  so please only POST THE TRUTH (i know it's impossible) IN THIS
NEWS group!!  We all want the best for Taiwan don't we?  :)

Steve Chen
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tom Li)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:25:22 GMT


In article <1992Dec31.090825.27165@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen) writes...
>In article <C044A2.8z8@news.iastate.edu> wwang@iastate.edu (Wen-Ping Wang) writes:
>>
>>Imagine 20 years ago when we were kicked out of the UN, if we agreed
>>to change our country name to Taiwan, we might have a seat in UN now
>>and there will have 'One China and One Taiwan'. Imagine 10 years ago when
>>China still isolated itself from the rest of the world, if we started
>>to use the name Taiwan and there definitely will have 'One China and
>>One Taiwan'. If above were true, then we don't have to argue here
>>anymore. :-) 
> 
>Agree.

In 1971 US tried to persuade us to accept the "Two Chinas" arrangement so that
we can stay in the UN but the KMT regime refused. If we did accept "Two Chinas"
arrangement then we probably dont have to argue whether "One China and One 
Taiwan" or "One-China". Oh well this is history.

>>So is 'One China' policy to blame?
> 
>You may blame the old day's "One China policy". But today's "One China
>policy" is for today Taiwan's survival. I mean Tom Li is arguing that
>the declaration of "One China and One Taiwan" now will not do Taiwan
>any good.
> 
>Time has and situation have changed. Yesterday I missed the last day's
>opportunity to buy an on-sale Sharp TV. Can't I consider buying other
>brands such as RCA today?

I agree.

The old day's "One China policy" insists that ROC and PRC can not co-exist
that certainly gave us lots of problem. But today's "One China policy"
promotes the idea that ROC and PRC can co-exist (ie, pragmatic "two Chinas")
but also avoid the immediate confrontation. Under this "One-China policy" 
protection umbrella, Taiwan can enhance her position in the international 
community as we have been doing right now. Then "One-China policy" can still 
be a good survival kit for Taiwan for now. But does it mean a perfect policy?
Certainly not. It is just as other "Two-Chinas" or "One China One Taiwan"
all have some problems. The point is how are you going to play with them?

Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:16422 soc.culture.china:33317
From: tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: (Taiwan vs Mainland To The Extreme)
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:34:26 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Organization: University of California, Davis / LLNL

In article <1992Dec18.004358.1289@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang) writes:
->In article <143510@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov writes:
->
->>Maybe some Mainland Chinese feel so honored just to be friends of
->>Taiwanese (a characteristic of inferiority) that they couldn't even
->>sense the superior attitude of Taiwanese in general.  Or there are
->>some Mainland Chinese feel so negatively about Mainland China
->>themselves (I've met a few of these, and some went to the extreme
->>of telling people they were from Taiwan) that they were actually
->>glad to hear degrading comments about China.
->>--
->>Terry Cheung
->>tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov
->
->Is this a joke or are you being emotional?

No, this is not a joke.  I've heard stories about this from various
people.  In one particular instance, I heard a guy from China telling
my father that he felt ashamed to be from China, and that he sometimes
told people (maybe only to Taiwanese) he was from Taiwan.  I felt
pretty sad when I heard that.  As far as I know, these people are
generally without a college education.

->
->William Huang

--
Terry Cheung
tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov
From: lishan@hardy.u.washington.edu (....  Angie  ....)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: slipdial.........
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:44:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1i8brpINN8ht
Reply-To: lishan@u.washington.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

hi you all.......
	recently i have been seeing the word 'slipdial', and would like to know
what that is?  what are the uses for that??

thanks

roc
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: seb@stein.u.washington.edu (-s e b a s t i a n-)
Subject: Re: Taiwan vs Mainland To The Extreme
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 05:24:53 GMT

	<homeless discussion and flames are over and done with, 
	 no need to bring it up again.>

>   Who cares whether taiwanese are rich or not? It has nothing to do with 
>me.

	if u don't care then why don't u just f*ck off, gees.


>>	oh, by the way, u talked about how taiwan was humiliated by
>>	japan in the earlier century, to tell u the truth, i have
>>	nothing against japan, not a thing. so what? it was part of
>>	the ignorant past, who cares! 
>> 
>>	------------------------------
>>	i'll sleep when i'm dead. /seb
>>	------------------------------

>How many TIers are like you? I wish there are many. Nobody would worry about 
>a flock of boneless, and homeless political prostitutes.
>
>Oh, by the way, you know a lot of English bad words. Where did you learn 
>them?
>Hsi
		oh by the way, where in the hell did you come from?
		your mother's ass?
		i don't want to use bad language or word and there's
		no need for you to force me to.

	outta here, it's christmas. /seb	
	i'm gonna go watch a good old chinese movie:

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Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Subject: Re: Stereotype of TIers
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 08:39:03 GMT

In article <Bzqo9E.1Kr@news.iastate.edu> wwang@iastate.edu (Wen-Ping Wang) writes:
>Remeber some netters are just discussing the role of World Journal in
>the States or its parent newspaper United Daily in Taiwan? If what
>netters said about the its strong anti-TI position is true, then don't
>you think it will stereotype TI movement for sure? :-)

WJ does try to stereotype TI movement as mobbish. But WJ doesn't paint
TIers as terrorists, which is what people are arguing about.

-- Chien-Chung Chen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: eng10187@nusunix1.nus.sg (LAM TAT FAI)
Subject: NTU address
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 01:43:11 GMT


Hello,

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you.

Sorry to trouble you again. But I would be grateful if anyone of you
could send me the address (by letter, post office, not e-mail address).
My friend who is now studying in National Taiwan University has sent me
a letter with her hostel name and room number, but not any other detail.
Since I haven't sent a letter to Taiwan before, I would like to know if
there is any zip code needed and more importantly, I am not sure if NTU
is in Taipei or any other places.  

Thanks in advance.

Please send to : "eng10187@nusunix1.nus.sg"

Thank you.
Lam, Allen

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tom Li)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:59:35 GMT


In article <1992Dec31.000403.16725@cbnews.cb.att.com>, liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao) writes...
> 
>From China's point of view, Taiwan is a province of China and is under the
>control of KMT. I don't know how they call President Li now. But definitely
>they won't call him a "President." By the same token, they have no problem
>to talk. But they insist to talk to KMT only instead of the government.

This December election has demonstrated that the KMT is no guarantee as a 
ruling party forever. I believe CCP will have to evaluate her position if 
she want to keep unification alive. So I am not that pessimistic.

>To them, direct election for president in Taiwan is like Taiwan has a
>"real" president instead of the current "KMT ruler." To them, it is not
>far away from independence although we don't say it.
> 
>Direct election to me is also a huge step toward democracy and independence.
>To pro-unification people, at least the former is true. 

If you so insists "direct election for President" related to independence.
Then dont blame that some pro-unificationers are against this idea. You not 
only create confrontation but also very likely kill a very effective and 
democratic approach which many people in Taiwan agree on. Also "direct 
election for President" may not be necessary to help independence. Now the 
KMT also pro this idea and wish that after people can elect their own
President then call for independence may be tone down a bit.

Personally I think political reform and unification/independence are two
separate issues. But some people just want to use it to serve their political
purposes.

>We'll see what
>China is going to do on this. With no doubt, we need to prepare for it.

I think China will do nothing.

>> I mean "pragmatic independence". Do you think "Republic of Taiwan" will be 
>> commonly accepted? 
>> 
> 
>Yes.

I think "Two Chinas" will be easier than "Republic of Taiwan" to be accepted. 
If this is the case, do you have problem accepting "Two China"?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: wwang@iastate.edu (Wen-Ping Wang)
Subject: Re: Stereotype of TIers
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:03:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.132831.9104@zip.eecs.umich.edu> joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen) writes:
>
>I have no problem with most of your remarks. But here could you give
>the netters some examples to sustain your arguments that the stereotyped
>terrorist image of TIers could have been the product of the KMT propaganda?
>Please cite your resources and evidences. I suspect the stereotyped
>image of KMT propaganda has been the product of TIers' propaganda. :)
>

Remeber some netters are just discussing the role of World Journal in
the States or its parent newspaper United Daily in Taiwan? If what
netters said about the its strong anti-TI position is true, then don't
you think it will stereotype TI movement for sure? :-)

W.P. Wang


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: hhwu@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (eric.wu)
Subject: Re: Where to buy software in Taiwan (Was: How I post articles in Chinese)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:29:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.003226.20221%ckshih@ne.nthu.edu.tw> ckshih@ne.nthu.edu.tw (Chun-Kuan Shih) writes:
>
>      ET System is commercially available at about NT$1200 in Taiwan.
>
Earlier this year I paid NT 1500 at one of the major computer chain store.
Is there a place in Taiwan where you can buy cheap and legal software?
Like we did with used books and IC parts.

Eric
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: China(was More than 50% support TI)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 22:15:29 GMT

In article <C0AIrG.3p6@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.002820.27380@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>
>>Although I don't agree with Eric Law's argument, you're forgetting *a lot*
>>of history.  The Period of the Five Hu's.  The North/South Dynasties.  The
>>Five Dynasties.  Liao.  Jin.  In some senses, even Qin (the one that lasted
>>only 15 years) was a barbaric invasion.
>All those "babarians" are within the geographical entity. They were under
>cetral government control or has to pay attributes to Central Government
>during peace time.

Hah.  I guess you know less history than I thought.

For some of the Five Hu's (Xiong-nu and Qian, for the most part), this was
true, but it definitely wasn't true of the Shien-bei, who were outside the
control of the Chinese government (Jin Dynasty).  During the Northern
Dynasties, *the "barbarians"* were the central governmental authority.  Same
for the Five Dynasties.  Same for Liao (Chi-Dan) and Jin (Nu-Jen).  If you
insist on calling them "tribute-payers," then you must also include Yuen and
Qin, who were "tribute-payers" to Jin and Ming, respectively.
>>
>>I am sure that the farmers in the Great Plains will have something to say
>>about that.  The Ukrainian plains (when weather/political situations
>>permitting) are probably more fertile than the North China plains as well.
>Please do not contend with me on this regard, It was one of my major.

Please do not contend with me on history; it is one of my major.

And if you got your education on this in China, I have a feeling that the
fertility of the Northern China Plains is probably exaggerated.  (Not a Chinese
example, but a Soviet one; one defector told the American press that while in
the Soviet Union, he was told that the Great Plains had bad crops every 2-3
years.  Hah.)

>>China is never known for having all fertile lands; otherwise, there wouldn't
>>have been so many famines in history.  (I have a feeling that you don't know

>Harvest fluctuation resulted from climate change or war. China had one of
				   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>oldest written language, those famine were recorded. Other parts of world

I guess that tells something about the fertility of the land...  You can
say that the *Siberian Plains* would be fertile if the weather is always good,
*but it won't be good*.  Same for the Northern China Plains, which is very
prone to draughts and floods.

>, did not have rich and welthy managed land, did not support so many
>population, when bad time came, famine did not hit as much at it did in
>China.

Hmmm...  I guess this makes Ethiopian and Somalian lands the most fertile
in the world.  NOT.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan