HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: espenm@dhhalden.no (ESPEN MONNICH)
Subject: Re: DMS
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:45:15 GMT

In article <8egvh6u00WB4QEXEQY@andrew.cmu.edu> Jonathan Michael Kraly <jk72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:05:58 -0400 
>From: Jonathan Michael Kraly <jk72+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Subject: DMS
>	Seeing as a lot of demos are compressed with dms1.11, I have
>decided I should get it.  However, it doesn't seem to be available via
>ftp.  Does anybody know how, or where, I can find it?

Try Funet.fi (128.214.6.100)
There you find a file called DMS1.11.sfx (selfextracting)!
From: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: why demos?
Date: 10 Sep 92 09:31:58 GMT
Organization: City University, London

In article <1992Sep9.165003.16181@exu.ericsson.se> exuhag@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>This is not a flame in any way, shape, or form:  Why do demo coders do it?
>Why do they spend years working on programs which most (not all) people
>watch only a few times and then use solely as an example to show off their
>Amiga's nifty graphics?
>
>I can understand that asthetic aspects.  I also have a technical appreciation
>for seemingly impossible programming feats.  I'm hoping for a little
>explanation of the demo coder philosophy--what exactly is the spark and
>drive behind this new pseudo-art?

The last word answers it with another question - why do peoply
produce _art_ at all?

--
Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
Xref: sparky alt.sys.amiga.demos:1114 comp.sys.amiga.audio:3341
From: abs0@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kelvin Leung)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.audio
Subject: Re: U4ia RELEIF FUND. WE'RE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD SUPPORTERS
Date: 7 Sep 92 15:45:31 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

s892031@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Pumpkin Power) writes:

>The news has been FULL of these posts for 2 weeks now.  Would you send
>Azatoth or Celebrandil cash if they suddenly blew their power supplies and
>had to stop coding?  Would you send Uno money if he burnt his copy of DPaint
>and needed to replace it?  Every time you see some other PD/Demo author
>say they've broken their hardware are you going to help them replce it?

>I think the answer is simply NO, you'd expect them to go out and get a part
>time job or something and pay for the replacement themselves, and not whinge
>to news about it every day for the next few months until they scrape
>together enough money.  If you want to post once, FINE, and leave it at that.
>Anyone who doesn't donate after that obviously doesn't want to for whatever
>reason, and continually posting isn't going to help you out.

Now, wait a sec... I have only seen him posted this message *ONCE*.  
Yes, he did cross-post it to another newsgroup, but that's because
he wants to let people who don't read "comp.sys.amiga.audio" to hear
about it too.

Why are you so upset about this?

>Pumpkin Power : s892031@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

>-- 

Yours Sincerely,
Kelvin

                                            ____________________________
 __________________________________________/ Undergraduate, Class of 94 \___ 
/____________________________________________________________\_____/________\
|  Kelvin    /   Internet: Kelvin.Leung@Dartmouth.edu       ({o   o})       |
|   Leung   /       or     abs0@Coos.Dartmouth.edu        <  #  ^  #  >     | 
|__________/_______________________________________________(vvvvvvvvv)______|
| "Unless someone like you cares a whole |  Do you see a doll? a beast?     |
|  awful lot, nothing is going to get    |                                  |
|  better.  It's not."                   |  There are always more than one  |
|               -- Dr. Seuss (The Lorax) |  side to any story...            |
 \______________________________________/ \________________________________/ 
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.audio
From: s892031@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Pumpkin Power)
Subject: Re: U4ia RELEIF FUND. WE'RE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD SUPPORTERS
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:58:57 EST

slbfn@cc.usu.edu writes:
>   Do you like U4ia MODs?
>   Have you impressed many I*M, or M*C owners with them?
>   Would you like to see more of them?
>   Would you like to keep one of the greatest Amiga assets of all time?
> 
>   How many modules has U4ia released _free_of_charge_ for
>   everyones music pleasure?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

The news has been FULL of these posts for 2 weeks now.  Would you send
Azatoth or Celebrandil cash if they suddenly blew their power supplies and
had to stop coding?  Would you send Uno money if he burnt his copy of DPaint
and needed to replace it?  Every time you see some other PD/Demo author
say they've broken their hardware are you going to help them replce it?

I think the answer is simply NO, you'd expect them to go out and get a part
time job or something and pay for the replacement themselves, and not whinge
to news about it every day for the next few months until they scrape
together enough money.  If you want to post once, FINE, and leave it at that.
Anyone who doesn't donate after that obviously doesn't want to for whatever
reason, and continually posting isn't going to help you out.

Pumpkin Power : s892031@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

-- 
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Toby Sargeant)
Subject: Re: why demos?
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:38:28 GMT

Dr.D (bosman@fwi.uva.nl) wrote:
: I think demo making started in the cracker scene. Its a way for a group
: to show how good they are. Make themselfs known to the rest of
: the world. Give themself a reputation.
: 
	Yeah, It _WAS_.... Now if you take a look at the scene, it is
pretty much divided. There are groups like Skid Row and Crystal whose
sole purpose is to crack and distribute, and then there are groups like
Andromeda, Silents and Melon Dezign who's almost single minded aim is to
create good productions...
: up new routines and awesome effects..that 9 out of 10 of those guys
: wouldnt be able to make a good game. Not cause they miss the coding 
: experience...im sure if they'd get an assignment with details on what
: to make they could make it..but just cause it takes a lot of knowledge
: to develope and design a game.
: 
	Yeah? I don't agree. A lot of games programmers are ex demo
coders, or still do. As another example, what about Deliverance and
Pinball Dreams/Pinball Dreams II? They were all coded by digital
illusions, a division of SILENTS.
	You cant get much closer to the scene than that.... Coding a
game isn't in my opinion much more difficult than coding a demo. It's
just longer, and a lot of people don't have that kind of time....
: 
: cor 'scorpio' bosman
				GoThIc/CR/\SS
(Which came first? the grass or the human?)
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: why demos?
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:10:03 PST
Organization: TAP, NZAmigaUG

Quoted from <1992Sep9.225913.7671@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> by gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Toby Sargeant):

> To be creative, and to share creativity. This may sound rather stupid,

    It doesn't sound stupid at all. It is exactly on the mark.

> 			gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
--
*** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG.        jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: espenm@dhhalden.no (ESPEN MONNICH)
Subject: Re: DMS
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:58:58 GMT

In article <8egvh6u00WB4QEXEQY@andrew.cmu.edu> Jonathan Michael Kraly <jk72+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:05:58 -0400 
>From: Jonathan Michael Kraly <jk72+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Subject: DMS
>	Seeing as a lot of demos are compressed with dms1.11, I have
>decided I should get it.  However, it doesn't seem to be available via
>ftp.  Does anybody know how, or where, I can find it?

Sorry I ment the file "dms111.sfx"!
Xref: sparky alt.sys.amiga.demos:1118 comp.sys.amiga.audio:3352
From: umage@mcl.ucsb.edu (androgyny)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.audio
Subject: Re: U4ia RELEIF FUND. WE'RE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD SUPPORTERS
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:21:57 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sys.amiga.demos

U4ia -
 
	Greetz!  I've never even heard one of your modules, and i'm
	considering sending you a buck or two!  It seemed and still seems
	like a very reasonable request to me.

--
-----------------------eom------------------------------
The facts and opinions presented here are not mine. They
belong to the U C Regents, who take full responsibility.
----------t---h---e----r--e---a---l-----eom-------------
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: eda735a@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (P.E. Mazur)
Subject: Re: why demos?
Summary: Crass... showing off???
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:40:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.225913.7671@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Toby Sargeant) writes:
> 	well, in reply, do you listen to music? do you enjoy art? or
> poetry? - For me at least, it is one and the same. Yes I agree that some
> may see it as a juvenile and/or wasteful use of time (I have been told
> as much many times), but I still see it as a form of art, and then
> pursue it for the same reasons that one would write, compose, or paint.
> To be creative, and to share creativity. This may sound rather stupid,
> but what other reason could there be? I'm not interested in showing off
> or anything similar....
> 
> 	Hope that answers something...
> 
> +-------
> |		GoThIc/CR/\SS
> 
> email crass members:
> 
> 			gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
> 			rat		" 
> 			shem		"
> 			arci		"

Goth did someone accuse you of not having creativity?  Does someone not 
understand the reasons behind demos?  Hahaha... I have no problem justifying
the need to buy a computer for $1000+ just for demos.  Why else would I have
an Amiga.
			- Shem
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: psteffn@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Paul Steffen)
Subject: Re: why demos?
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 05:18:18 GMT

Why do you call it 'psuedo art' when it is, certainly, the most impressive
example of multimedia I have seen done with computers.  C'mon, if you want
to be so critical of four-letter-words and bad grammar, you wouldn't call
most professional music art, either.  It's the amazing amount of attention
to detail that I see in the production of demos that you hardly ever see
in even PROFESSIONAL work.  Even the artists/musicians/programmers at 
Psygnosis pale in comparison to a great number from the demo scene merely
because of detail [which is why Psygnosis has probably hired Tip/Mtx/4-mat
to do title songs for their latest games].  

STratoHAK/TPPi
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: why demos?
From: spaceman@kauri.vuw.ac.nz ("Too Tall" Jones)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:47:59 GMT
 .au><1992Sep14.185435.24288@news.uit.no><1992Sep15.111549.19564@fwi.uva.nl>
Organization: Spaceman Services Centre, Victoria Uni. of Wellington, NZ.



[someone, somewhere wrote...]

>   But what about those zillion less well known groups?

And what about the zillion less well known games writers who's games aren't 
quite good enough to get a software house to publish them ?
Your arguement is cute but you seem to forget that with Demos, they do not have
to be of a sufficently high standard to persuade someone to publish them, as
opposed to games.
Just my 2c worth.

brendan
--


             _____
            (____ p a c e m a n  @  k a u r i . v u w . a c . n z
            _____)
Brendan  Jones   /   10  Summit  Road.  Lower  Hutt.  NZ    /  +64 O4 567 934O
Xref: sparky alt.sys.amiga.demos:1125 comp.sys.amiga.audio:3362
From: s892031@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Pumpkin Power)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.audio
Subject: Re: U4ia RELEIF FUND. WE'RE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD SUPPORTERS
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:07:35 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

ccjy@bristol.ac.uk (APATHY=) writes:
>Well, if you or anyone out there in the netland can show me a bill that I have
>sent to you, then i will gladly stop this so called bickering.
>Unless you can show me where i have 'demanded' money from you all.  SHut the
>hell up.  I am not asking you to send me money if you don't want to.
>What gives you the right to tell me i am demanding money from people.
>I do not demand anything from you, so why accuse me of almost stealing from
>people????  
>I have asked for monetary help, yes i have, but never have i demanded it.

Reread my post, you will not find the word 'demanded' (or anything close
to as strong as that) contained anywhere.  You've missed the point again,
and gone off on a bit of a tangent I feel.  Anyway, people have asked us to
stop, so I will.  Feel free to flame me in email :)

--
From: mohawk@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Mohawk Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: U4is relief fund and responses
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:38:08 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX


I think everyone who is dragging on this U4ia relief fund debate is
starting to look pretty stupid.  Both sides outta shut up.

Of course I'm not telling you what to do; do what you want.
From: umage@mcl.ucsb.edu (androgyny)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Drawing lines
Date: 5 Sep 92 16:10:08 GMT

Yea me, the novitiate programmer again.
OK, i know the blitter will draw lines, but i wanted to try my hand at
writing a straight lin edrawer myself.  And now i want to compare with
folks here.  Keep in mind i've never had any teaching or theory in this,
and i've got a routine which requires 2 divides at the beginning of each
line, and from then on is simple adds and checks. (about 2 to 5 per pixel,
excluding actually drawing the pixel in ram)  How does this measure up?
Should i think some more ? ( Of course i should! )
Also like the blitter it will want ot know what octant the line is in..

--
-----------------------eom------------------------------
The facts and opinions presented here are not mine. They
belong to the U C Regents, who take full responsibility.
----------t---h---e----r--e---a---l-----eom-------------
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: gothic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Toby Sargeant)
Subject: Re: Eurochart #16
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:20:34 GMT

Morten Eriksen (mortene@Lise.Unit.NO) wrote:
: Could the guy who uploaded Eurochart #16 to wuarchive.wustl.edu please upload
: tracks 0-40 again, as the archive seems to be corrupt.
: 
: Morten
	It is a sad thing... Since Static Bytes took over Eurocharts, we
no longer have a good mag here... Try looking for Raw or Stolen Data, or
even McDisk (to plug a few) - they're much better... ust quietly, I
wouldn't worry about EC 16. I got it ages ago, and is NOT worth it!  

					GothiC/Cr/\sS
From: umage@mcl.ucsb.edu (androgyny)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: why demos?
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:43:34 GMT

>> To be creative, and to share creativity. This may sound rather stupid,
>    It doesn't sound stupid at all. It is exactly on the mark.

			yup
And not only demos, most of the people i know writing professional high end
products also do it for the sense of creativity and elegance possible in coding.


--
-----------------------eom------------------------------
The facts and opinions presented here are not mine. They
belong to the U C Regents, who take full responsibility.
----------t---h---e----r--e---a---l-----eom-------------
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: bosman@fwi.uva.nl (Dr.D)
Subject: Re: why demos?
Organization: FWI, University of Amsterdam
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:15:49 GMT

ABout my post saying lots of democoders couldnt program a game.
Remember..I didnt say they were bad coders. On the contrary.
I am always amazed by what they can do. 
But do you know just how many democoders are out there?
Dont just look at the top crews..cause the reason they
CAN supply gamecoders for professional work(you know what I mean!)O
is cause they are a top crew..and therefor attract top coders.
(or you can look at this the other way around..they became a top
crew cause they had a top coder)
But what about those zillion less well known groups?
They probably all have a coder or two. I think
9 out of 10 is a pretty good guess. 


scorpio
-- 
|bosman@fwi.uva.nl_   //     | Honest Officer , had I known my health      |
|-----------------\\ //AMIGA | stood in jeopardy I would never had lit one.|
|  PE no.1         \\/       |             -MAXIM (of the Hells Angels)-   |
|__________ Quickly Scotty,beam me up.There is no ox..y..ge..._____________|
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: espensk@stud.cs.uit.no (Espen Skoglund)
Subject: Re: why demos?
Organization: University of Tromsoe
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:04:08 GMT

bosman@fwi.uva.nl writes:

> I also think...altho some democoders are VERY good in making and thinking
> up new routines and awesome effects..that 9 out of 10 of those guys
> wouldnt be able to make a good game. Not cause they miss the coding 
> experience...im sure if they'd get an assignment with details on what
> to make they could make it..but just cause it takes a lot of knowledge
> to develope and design a game.

Hmmmm.... What should i say? ...... Rubbish?

Off course there are some democoders who never could make a good game. But
9 out of 10, that's a bit tough (1 out of 10 sounds a bit more like it).
And....I think game coders should fall under this rule too, 'cause there
are quite a few games that never should have been released in the first
place. (I'm not going to mention any names.)

And how can I say this?   Well, mainly because I've seen lots of quality
games from ex.democoders, and also the fact that I've myself been making
demos for IT in the old days, and I'm now working on Mayhem (A gravity-
force-style-game for up to 4 players simultaniously. You may have seen
an old preview of it, but take it easy, the later version is much better.).

You see, some of the best non-strategy games has a very simple concept
at the beginning. But then, as the game starts to take shape, new ideas
are added all the time, and the final game becomes quite complex. This is
much the same way demos are made, with a simple starting point and a
comlex product at last, and therefore I think democoders could be very
refreshing for the game coding buisness.

By the way.... game developing and designing doesn't take that much knowledge.

 - Espen Skoglund

+------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Espen Skoglund   | Once upon a time IT was a fine day.               |
| (or Onkel Dread  | Once upon a time IT was a respectable group.      |
| if you prefer.)  | Once upon a time IT return with a new X-mas demo  |
+------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
From: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: why demos?
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:50:03 GMT
Reply-To: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson, TX

This is not a flame in any way, shape, or form:  Why do demo coders do it?
Why do they spend years working on programs which most (not all) people
watch only a few times and then use solely as an example to show off their
Amiga's nifty graphics?

I can understand that asthetic aspects.  I also have a technical appreciation
for seemingly impossible programming feats.  I'm hoping for a little
explanation of the demo coder philosophy--what exactly is the spark and
drive behind this new pseudo-art?

[On the one hand, it seems that there just HAS to be some kind of
underlying inspiration which causes people to spend ridiculous amounts
of time on something of no practical value (that is, you'd think anyone
wanting a year-long project would write a game or other program).  On
the other hand, though, there is a juvenile amateurism (really bad
grammar, impossible to read fonts, lots of pointless four-letter words
and crude comments) which makes me think most demo coders are a bunch
of angst-ridden asolescents trying to fight the system.]

Comments appreciated.  Remember, no flames intended.

---
James Hague   
exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
From: frank@hsr.no (Frank A Stevenson)
Subject: New Demo / PMC
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:17:18 GMT

For those who know Pure Metal Coder, the group behind the Alpha & Omega demo, it
has been no secret that we have been working on a new demo. It is now over a year
since our release of A&O, and I can say this much our next release is imminent.

Cocy of Pure Metal Coders has been working on it for over a year, and now the
final design is beeing worked on, and a deadline is set. There will possibly be
released an advertisement for our upcoming demo.

As I am fresh on the net, I have been wondering wether Alpha & Omega has been
available from any ftp sites. Please mail me and let me know so that I can make
them avalable.

Pure Metal Coders also publishes the Amiga diskmag R.A.W, I could also try to
make this available upon request.

Anyways, I will do my best to make our next demo available as fast as possible,
but the release date is yet to be set. We will enter a competition with the demo
and it must therefore not be released before after the competition.

VANGUARD of Pure Metal Coder
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Drawing lines
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:52:02 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <umage.715709408@mcl> umage@mcl.ucsb.edu (androgyny) writes:
>Yea me, the novitiate programmer again.
>OK, i know the blitter will draw lines, but i wanted to try my hand at
>writing a straight lin edrawer myself.  And now i want to compare with
>folks here.  Keep in mind i've never had any teaching or theory in this,
>and i've got a routine which requires 2 divides at the beginning of each
>line, and from then on is simple adds and checks. (about 2 to 5 per pixel,
>excluding actually drawing the pixel in ram)  How does this measure up?
>Should i think some more ? ( Of course i should! )

Yes, go ahead, there are better solutions to find. I myself needed two
or three years to reach the ultimate algorithm, only to find afterwards
that it had already been invented in the 50's by some Mr. Bresenham at
IBM. It's today known with his name, and it's also implemented in hardware
in the blitter. Shall I really tell you? No. Just a hint: You can avoid
any division by something that I called back then (before learning about
Bresenham) "cross adding/subtracting". You investigate single-pixel steps
on the longer axis of your line. Only once a while you also have to do a
step in the other direction. Now the division is replaced by a continous
subtraction: How often does the denominator fit into the nominator (sp?)?
If you subtracted below zero, another step in the second direction is due.
And to make up for the next interval, you add the dy=y2-y1 (positive!)
to this *error* term, making it positive again, ready for the next
subtractions of *dx* each. Then the only remainng question is how to
initialize this error term: I just give it dy/2.

Sigh, now I told you nearly all of Bresenham's algorithm. But there are
differences: He always doubles some terms, where I do it much simpler,
and I swear my lines look as decent as his ones!

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Back from vacation, anything happened?
Xref: sparky alt.sys.amiga.demos:1116 comp.sys.amiga.audio:3348