HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:36:34 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Rob Strom writes:
>
>-That's not surprising.  For today's Messianic Jews are
>-not an unbroken continuation of a Jewish splinter
>-group of followers of Jesus.  They are all of them
>-recent converts who learned their Christianity from
>-post-Nicean, post-Augustinian sources, not from
>-an unbroken chain of practicing Jewish Christians.

And, for that matter, learned their Judaism from post-Talmudic Jewish
sources.

The historic fact is that the vast majority of the Jewish disciples of
Jesus went hand-in-hand with their Gentile brethren into the early Church. 
As the generations went by, these Christians became more unified in their
common beliefs and practices to the point that Jew and Gentile were
indistinguishable.  (It's probably safe to say that many of the Christians
still living in the Middle East are descendents of these early Jewish
believers, even thought their religious practices are decidedly Christian. 
For these people being a physical descendent of Abraham no longer makes any
difference in God salvation plan.  Being a spiritual child of Abraham is
what's important.)  The remnant of Judaism and the remnant from among the
Gentiles became the new holy nation of the Church.  Peter and Paul
certainly understood the fact that, covenantally speaking, the promises to
Abraham and his "Seed" had been brought lock, stock and barrel into the
Church (the pejorative term "replacement theology" notwithstanding).  For
the most part the Jews who refused assimilation in the Church were the
heretical groups like the Ebionites who also rejected the emerging
Christian tradition regarding the trinity and the person of Christ.

Modern Messianic Judaism has no special connection with these early Jewish
Christians, other than the connection that all Christians have which is
brought to us through the centuries of orthodox Christianity.

>Cynics (of which I am one) would claim that once
>the "completed" individual becomes a Christian "believer",
>the evangelical movement could care less whether
>that individual's grandchildren remain Jewish
>or Gentile so long as they continue to be "believers".

I am not a cynic, but allow me to point out that this is precisely the way
it should be, from a Christian perspective.  The children of Abraham belong
to every nation under the sun.  They can retain their particular cultural
distinctive if they wish, but the religious distinctives that once
separated human nations one from another are ended.  There is only one
"commonwealth of Israel" with one set of Bible-mandated, common religious
practices.

Again, and in case I haven't made myself clear in the past, if Jewish
believers in Messiah wish to retain there cultural heritage by way of
distinctive practices, that's absolutely OK by me.  It is not my intention
to get any Jew to convert to "Gentilism."  (Gentilism is paganism, BTW.) 
But let's not suggest that you can attach religious superiority to such
cultural practices.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Our Father Abraham
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:47:31 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <139231.2A66E2E7@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>Tom i just deleted the rest of your msg, because you have labeled the above 
>as one of our aberrant teachings, and you are just plain lying about MJ's. 

Harvey,

I realize you're new to alt.messianic, and that you haven't had the benefit
of past exchanges.  We have discussed, at great length, the matter of the
relationship between Israel and the Church.  I have been assured, by more
than one participant, that the Church is not the new Israel, heir of the
promises to our father Abraham by virue of our being in Christ.  The New
Testament makes it clear that God does not base membership in the new
covenant community along racial lines.  God is no respecter of persons. 
There are times when this discussion has evolved into the benefits to
politically supporting the current state of Israel.  We have discussed the
theological implications of such a position.

I am more than happy to get into this subject again, since I believe a
proper understanding of the differences between the old covenant and the
new covenant is critical to God's people.

There has been ample evidence given in this newsgroup that some MJs (and
non-MJs for that matter) label as "anti-Semitism" the idea that the Church
is the new Israel, the "holy nation" of God under the new covenant.

If you believe that such a view is "anti-Semitic" then my comments are for
you.  If you believe, as I do, that the Church is the new Israel, and
entitled to all the promises and blessing of our father Abraham, then be
prepared to be labeled an anti-Semite.  But I would personally be
encouraged if an MJ subscribed to my (aka the historic, orthodox) position.

I encourage you to stick around.  We might all learn something.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:52:58 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

>	*** POSTED ON BEHALF OF BRUCE BENNING ***
>
>>shed ever.  The legacy is clear, when the church abandoned the law-word of
>>God as the only standard for faith and practice, all sorts of abominations
>>were encouraged.  That's why the Church needs to repent of its antinomian
>>ways and reclaim the truth of the law-word of God.
>>
>
>   I guess we will see you in services on Saturday then? :--)

Well, I can't speak for any other denomination, but mine bases its
decision to worship on Sunday firmly on the completed law-word of God,
i.e., the Old + the New Testaments.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:48:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Harvey Smith to Bill Carlson <=-
 HS> And that is the crux of the problem.  So instead of contending for the
 HS> faith once for all delivered to the saints, they attempt to undermine
 HS> that which is against their church doctrine.  Oy vey, what a problem
 HS> they have.  Glad i don't have such a problem.  (grin) 
     Yup.  And that is also how a lot of denominations start too, by
     defending dogma rather than the Faith.

Shalom

... 012 Midrash: (303) 289-6864 @ 9600 baud :MJCN 210012 Denver Colo. 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Our Father Abraham
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:29:22 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 TA=>But I have been called an anti-Semite by folks in this forum; 
 TA=>mostly by
 TA=>Messianic Jews who theologically disagree with my understanding 
 TA=>of the
 TA=>future of Israel and the Jewish people.

Has nothing to do with your theology Tom.  That does not make you an anti 
semite.  What does, is your caricatures and your adding doctrines to what we 
believe, so you can be right in your interpretations.  Pretty slovenly, 
Thats what makes you an anti semite.  You do not need to agree with MJ's at 
all.  But if you write what we believe, please be accurate... 

 TA=>believers in Messiah are children of Abraham.  That was my point. 
 TA=>According to  the apostle Peter, under the new covenant the 

No MJ ever said differently Tom. Its your imagination that is running amuck. 
All Believers in Yeshua are the Children of Abraham by faith.  He is the 
father of many nations of believers.

 TA=>CHurch is the
 TA=>royal priesthood and holy nation of God Almighty.  There is no 
 TA=>racial
 TA=>distinction in this holy nation.

No body disagrees in MJism with that either.  There is neither Jew nor 
Gentile within the body of Messiah.  

 TA=>faithful of Israel and share in the blessing promised to our 
 TA=>father
 TA=>Abraham.  I do not consider myself a second class citizen in the 
 TA=>"holy
 TA=>nation," nor, for that matter, did the apostles.

And no MJ ever said you were a second class citizen.  Your feelings of low 
esteem in the midst of Jews who believe, is amazing.  See your doing it 
again.  You are intimating that somehow MJ's feel superior, and or better, 
than you in Messiah.  Not so.  All were lost and all shall be saved.  Praise 
God.


 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:58:42 -0400

In article <139283.2A6C6A4B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> you write:

> RAL> Other movement leaders have ties to the Assemblies of God church,
> RAL> and even the Jews for Jesus movement.
>
> Those who go by the title "Messianic Jews" come in all forms.  All the
> way from what you'd consider very "Reform", to very "Frum".

Where does "ordained Christian minister" fit into the scale of Jewish
belief and practice?

> But all these are just side trips.  The point is: either Y'shua is the
> Messiah; or He isn't.  We believe He is.

That's not the point.  The point is "If you believe in the tenets of
Christianity, why do you deceptively pretend to be a legitimate Jewish
group rather than Christian?"


>   So, let me ask you: if He is;
> what would truly be your response, - that is if you did believe that He
> was Messiah ben-Yosef?

If the queen were male, she'd be the king.


>    What would HaShem have to do in your life to
> prove that to you.  Just curious.                   ... Am Israel Chai!      

Neither you nor I may put G-d to the test in such a manner, nor in
this age of hester panim could we even prove that He were behind it
rather than chance, human action, or an as-yet-unknown phenomenon.

Remember the mystery sponsor in Charles Dickens' _Great Expectations_?

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Who is Harvey Smith...
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:21:19 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Open Letter to Harvey Smith:

1. Are now or have you ever been an ordained minister
  of the Assemblies of God church?
  a) If "No," then ignore the question.
  b) If "Yes," kindly explain why you haven't mentioned this yet on line.

* Is your house of worship affiliated with the Assemblies of God church?

* Can you provide evidence of your being Jewish or raised Jewish?
  Where are you from?  Which yeshiva did you attend and when?

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: pab1@quads.uchicago.edu (paul andrew braier)
Subject: Re: Knowing Hashem
Reply-To: pab1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:13:35 GMT

In article <139362.2A720882@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>
>          A couple of my friends and myself are walking down a road,
>     and meet a man who says: At the end of this road, in a field to
>     the right, you will find a heap of diamonds or pure quality, and
>     they are being given away free, and a man is even providing the
>     sacks for you to carry them off!
> [...deleted...]
>     As we are walking back down the road, we see
>     another lone man in the distance, and one of my companions says: I
>     don't think we should tell him about the field.  I respond to
>     my friend: If it was not for the man who told us of the field,
>     you'd not even have the ability to withold this blessing from
>     another!
> [...deleted]

So you go to the man on the road and tell him about the diamond field. He
replies that he is quite happy as he is, and his whole family is happy
as well. But you can't take that for an answer, because you've seen the
diamond field. So you plead with him to go to the field and he refuses. So
you bind and gag him and drag him over to the field, you fill a sack with
diamonds and lash it to his back. As soon as he is free, he tries to get
rid of the bag, but you are too quick. You think "surely, this man is insane
to refuse such riches as we offer!" You rush over th the man to prevent
him from discarding the bag, and in the melee, you kill him.

Your friends comfort each other saying, "At least he died a rich happy man!"

THIS is evangelism.


-----------------------
Paul A. Braier
pab1@quads.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: lehitraot
Date: 28 Jul 1992 21:40:53 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

alt.messianic is taking up too much of my time.  I've decided to stop
being active in this newsgroup.  (Perhaps that makes some of you happy.)
Shalom b'Shem Yeshua HaMashiach.

                                                                 |     
                               -,-.  -.  .  ,  ---.  -,-.  ,--.  `--,  
                                | |   |  |`\|     |   | |     |    /   
                               -' '   '  '  `     '  -' '  '  '   '    

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: er,excuse me
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:43:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 TA=>But there is an official denomination of Messianic Jews called 
 TA=>the Union of
 TA=>Messianic Jewish Congregations, the UMJC.  "Jews for Jesus" is an
 TA=>evangelist organization headquartered in San Francisco, not a 
 TA=>denomination.

Wrong again Tom, boy your ignorance surely shows.  The UMJC is not a 
denomination.  It is an umbrella organization, much like the NAE, etc.  It 
is a PR organization, that bands to gether MJ's of many different 
denominational flavors.  

YOur assessment of the Jews for Jesus is correct. 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:47:09 -0400


Tom Albrecht writes:
> Let me ask you a question?  Would you regard the Israelites who
> worshipped the Baals and Ashtaroth, and who built the "high places" to
> simply have a "difference of opinion" with regard to the law of God?

No, they physically served the idols.  Your phrase "turn from her
wickedness and embrace her Messiah," suggests that the problem
is refusal to convert, not a particular action.
   (taking your word that "wickedness" only refers to actions of 2000
     years ago, not the present refusal to convert)

> My reference to "wickedness" was specifically directed at those Jews who
> crucified their Messiah.  I've made that position clear in past messages.

It is not clear from your words:

# Modern Judaism is the heir of this legacy.  Rather than acknowledge her sin
# before Almighty God and turn from her wickedness and embrace her Messiah,
# she has become more hard-hearted over the generations.  The Christian
# gospel, a gospel no longer restricted to one nation, still holds out hope
# for those who would turn to Messiah.  The remnant is still being saved, and
# regrafted into the root.


> Indeed, the Roman tradition is steeped in the blood of many people; Jews,
> protestants, etc...

Yes, but they made a lot of progress since Vatican II, and have not
been supportive of "Messianic Judaism[sic]," and similar missionary
efforts.

Rob

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Knowing Hashem
Date: 24 Jul 1992 13:11:10 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Jul24.175620.11491@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
>And I don't label Tom A. and Kenneth H. as Messianics.

I feel very ...		I don't know what I feel.  I *am* a believer in
Yeshua, and a gentile, therefore I'm a Messianic Gentile.  I'm very
disappointed that you haven't yet figured this out.  Perhaps I'll have
to be more forward in my posts.

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 31 Jul 92 04:58:14 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <139458.2A778170@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>
> MR> Date: 29 Jul 92 06:49:02 GMT
> MR> Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
> MR> Message-ID: <1992Jul29.064902.14222@samba.oit.unc.edu>
> MR> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
>             -=> Quoting Malachi Robertson Bill Carlson <=-
> MR> Could the "Commonwealth" Israel be considered the Church spoken of in
> MR> the New Testament (here viewing this Church as on a higher level than
> MR> just the Gentile Church)?
>      The "Commonwealth" are those of the 'wild-olive-tree', -(non-
>      believing gentiles), that have "joined" the natural-tree
>      -(Israel).  Not to "replace" Israel; but to be joined to her, they
>      are "commonwealth"; much  in the same way as Canada is
>      commonwealth with England.  ...yet Canada is not England.
>
>... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
>--  
>Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG

Well, that seems to point out what replacement theology is really about. 
So replacement theology supposedly says that the Gentile Church "replaces"
Israel.  What you are saying appears to agree quite well with Romans and
points to the Gentile Church as being a part of Israel as in the notion of
a commonwealth.  I guess my question was to address whether you would then
agree to saying that when a passage addresses the "Church" (as in Body of
Messiah) in general (not making specific hints as to whether it is
addressing Jews or Gentiles specifically) it is addressing this
commonwealth.  I guess one of example of a general passage might be
Ephesians 5:23 ("...just as Messiah also is the head of the church.");
another maybe I Corinthians 11:22 ("Or are you so contemptuous of the
church of G-d that you shame its poorer members?").  

NOTE:  After rereading your last two articles and my own message, I can
say that I may be confused by what you mean when you are refering to the
"Commonwealth" of Israel.  This question ought to clear things up:  Is the
commonwealth the same thing as the body of believing jews and Gentiles or
is the body of believers a subset?

Sorry if I am dense,
"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: introduction and questions
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:12:06 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Greetings!  My real name is Ian Robertson Brown.  I am a Gentile Christian
and recent reader to this newsgroup.  I have found several points within
the posts of the Messianic Jews which near my own beliefs.  In my desire
to see if we come close to agreeing in other areas I have a few questions
and would greatly appreciate any answers.

     --What is the MJs view of what will occur during the Millenium?
     --Do MJs believe that Jesus will conduct the antitypical Day of 
       Atonement just as he is conducting the antitypical daily sacrifices?
     --Do MJs view the Sabbath as a binding commandment upon all humanity?
     --Do MJs see any sanctity in Sunday, the day that many Christians 
       view as a rest day?
     --What are the MJ views concerning what happens after death?
     --Do the MJs have any views concerning the apocalyptic prophecies
       of Daniel and Revelation?

Thanks for any replies, and for your time.
******************************************************************************

"Now therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my
treasured possession out of all the peoples.  Indeed, the whole earth is
mine, but you shall be for me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation." Ex.
19:5,6

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own
people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called
you out of darkness into his marvelous light."  I Peter 2:9


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: re:clean and unclean under the new covenant
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:46:49 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Jul24.114720.16654@pbs.org> btiffany@pbs.org writes:
                   [...]
>  attacked Yeshua and company on that very issue. -Food- to those in 
>  the crowd, to the disciples, and to Yeshua was what God said could 
>  be eaten. Perhaps one of the EVIL THOUGHTS Yeshua was speaking of 
>  was the desire to use this passage as a means to sin against God 
>  and ignore HIS laws regarding clean and unclean foods. :--)

I think this is one of the reasons that Gentiles easily misunderstand
this passage.  We often do not comprehend that pork and such is not
"food" to a Jew.  So if Yeshua says to a Jew, "all food is clean," he
is not even referring to pork and such, because it does not fall into
the category of "food."  At least, this is the impression that I have
received from observing the discussion here.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:59:38 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Harvey Smith writes:
>
>While the Jewish Church dominated the Kehillah of both Jews and Non Jews it 
>was in the 3rd century when the scism took place between MJ's and Non 
>Jewish christians... 

Harvey, your grasp of history is amazing.  I'm sorry to inform you but
after the destruction of the Temple in AD70 there was no such thing as a
"Jewish church."  There couldn't be, since the "Jewish" ordinances of the
old covenant decayed, and were ended in the events of that day.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: heller@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (Aaron J. Heller)
Subject: Need help with grammar (was: Re: An open letter to Harvey)
Organization: Aule-Tek, Inc., Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 01:07:24 GMT

In <1992Jul17.200148.10260@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>
> The Jews crucified their Messiah at the hands of the Romans.

Could someone please parse this sentence for me?  Thanks.




-- 
Aaron Heller  heller@balltown.cma.com  518/393-7379

Pictures are like blintzes -- ya gotta get 'em while they're hot. -Weegee