From: minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:27:14 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati

**This is the 2nd post I had put up in response to the apostacy discussion.
This is now in response to Mr. Rafsanjani's post on why the Baha'is are
persecuted.

Start:
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This is an extract of a discussion about the same subject on some other nets.
 
> >To all of you people on the SCA,SCP,SRI nets. I have been reading the
> >discussion about apostasy and find the discussion very disturbing. Islam does
> >_not_ allow the killing of apostates. That is all.
> 
>       Islam certainly does allow the killing of apostates.
 
Let's look at the verses quoted in reply to this article.
>       There is no compulsion in Deen i.e. no one can be forced to
>       become a Muslim, but once he becomes a Muslim then the verse
>       no longer applies.
 
Qur'anic evidence?
 
> >All this means is that if you leave Islam, you are committing a
> >great sin and you will go to hell. However we humans have no say so in this.
> 
>       Our Prophet (saw) certainly was human...did he not order
>       apostates to be put to death?
 
Were the Qur'anic verses revealed yet? Is there any Qur'anic backing
for the ahadith, or were these political manipulation?
 
> >God told his Prophet that he was nothing but a warner to the people. 
> >His job was only to give the Word. It was _not_ to shove the Word down anyone
> >throat. This _is_ in Quran.
> 
>       Yes, but here the Qur'an is not talking about apostates.
> 
> >However if the apostates harm muslims or wage war
> >against them, which is what happened in the prophet's life, then the Muslims
> >are allowed to do the same. This is the basis for all of the Hadith on the
> >subject matter of the apostates. 
> 
>       An apostate (murtadd) is by definition harmful to Islam and
>       the Muslims. (A murtadd is one who abandons the Islamic
>       community and takes the side of the Kafirs; or one who becomes
>       a Kafir by saying something against Islam, for example denying
>       a fundamental duty such as prayer as being part of Islam and
>       obligatory; or one who does something which takes him out of
>       Islam. A murtadd is one who does either of the above wilfully
>       and with no coercion, and is a sane person, and an adult, and
>       according to some a male, and is given sufficient time to
>       repent and return to Islam but he refuses to do so)
 
Qur'anic evidence is missing.
 
> >Yes there are Hadith which just state
> >something to the affect of "kill the apostates" without a context. This has
> >lead to confusion. The context of the ahadith is that apostates had done harm
> >to muslims, and waged war against them. One might ask about the so-called
> >"apostate wars" during the time of Abu-Bakr. They were waged because the
> >bedouins did not want to pay zakat.
 
Correct. No Qur'anic justification was given.
 
> >There may be some raison de terre to kill apostates however the connection to
> >Quran and Sunna would be tenuous. At best they could be considered ijtahad 
> >from
> >very angry mullahs. If it is the first reason, then the interpretation is not
> >valid, and if it is the latter reason then the fatwa can be changed very
> >easily.
> 
>       I'll just quote the Qur'an and Sunnah and let the people decide:
> 
> Qur'an:(translation)
>       "But if they repent and establish Salat and pay the Zakat,
>       then they are your brethren-in-religion. We detail Our
>       revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break
>       their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and
>       assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. Lo!
>       they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
 
It would have been nice if the verses surah and aya was given.
The above verse is 9:11-12.
 
That this refers to a specific incident is noted by "their treaty".
Let's look more closely at what these two aya refer to (from Muhammad
Asad's _The Message of the Qur'an_)
 
"Their subsequent 'breaking of the solemn pledges' is an allusion to
the breach of truce of Hudaybiyyah by the pagan Quraysh, which, in
turn, led to the conquest of Mecca by the Muslims in the year 8H."
 
The truce ended the war, the truce was broken, hence there was a fear
of aggression.
        
>       {An apostate who gives up Islam and refuses to revert to
>       Islam, then he is treated as a non-Muslim who is at war with
>       the Muslims; the only difference is that whereas other
>       non-Muslims-at-war can be made slaves or prisoners or if they
>       stop fighting peace can be made with them and they can become
>       dhimmis, for apostates the only options are to become a Muslim
>       or be put to death}
 
So, Jemshed agrees that there must be an imminent threat of war, or
a war in progress
 
> Qur'an:(translation)
>       "..Do not take the life which Allah has made sacred except in
>       (the course of) justice...."
 
This is a small part of 6:151. 5:32-34 explain when killing is
sanctioned:
 
32
"Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if
anyone slays a human being - unless it be [in punishment] for murder
or for spreading corruption on earth - it shall be as though he had
slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as
though he had saved the lives of all mankind. And, indeed, there came
unto them Our apostles with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold,
notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of
excesses on earth." (Note that the Jews are being referred to as
continuing to commit "all manner of excesses on earth.)
 
 
 
33
 
"It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His
Apostle, and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they are
being slain in great numbers, or crucified in great numbers, or have,
in result of their perverseness, their hands and feet cut off in great
numbers, or are being [entirely] banished from the land: such is their
ignominy in this world. But in the life to come [yet more] awesome
suffering awaits them -"
 
34
"save for such [of them] as repent ere you [O believers] become more
powerful than they: for you must know that God is much-forgiving, a
dispenser of grace".
 
(Note "ere you become more powerful than they" refers to a specific
on-going struggle.)
 
According to Richard Bell, one translator of the Qur'an, about these verses:
 
"Penalties are threatened against those who make war, or "cause
corruption", i.e. stir up hostility. This latter would apply to the
Jews at any time from the expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa' onward until
the taking of Khaibar."
 
Again, war or acts of hostility.
------
 
Note that the ahadith are self-inconsistent about which apostates
should be killed and which shouldn't.
 
Jemshed also notes one of the ahadith
 
        Baihaqi:
        Reported `A'isha: "On the occassion of the Battle of Uhd a
        woman became apostate. On this the Prophet (peace and
        blessings of Allah be upon him) said: Ask her to repent and if
        she does not repent, kill her."
 
Note: "On the occasion of the Battle of Uh(u)d..." War in progress..
---
What do we see in all this then? The Qur'anic verses quoted applied to
specific instances, all involving war or threat of war though breaking
of treaties. The only "dated" hadith also refer to a war in progress.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian