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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:19:07 CDT
From:         "(Jon R. Nials)" <lim1!jon@CS.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:      Remove me from the list!

Please remove me from the CATHOLIC mailing list.  The signal to noise ratio is
much too low.

-Jon
--

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| Jon R. Nials                          | Phone: (512) 346-5464               |
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:26:39 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Opus Dei

On Oct 7,  3:00pm, "(Jouko Lindstedt)" wrote:
} Subject: Opus Dei
} I would like to read your opinions about the Opus Dei organization.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Jouko Lindstedt)"

	Well, from what I can see Opus Dei has a small but growing
presence in the U.S.  I've only known a couple of people who were
involved and they seemed to think it was a worthwhile organization
albeit a bit time-consuming.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
What sin has not been committed in the name of efficiency?
From: tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM (Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: RE: Homosexuality
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:13:31 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Len wrote:
>writing older than 20 years is out of date...The Bible must be
>constantly revaluated in light of new information.

Eric wrote:
>HA!  What a joke!

Eric, if what you say were true, there would be exactly and only one version of
the bible and it would be in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek.

Every time biblical scholars go back to the original texts they find something
new.  In fact, much of the interpretation of the original texts is guesswork,
because the original texts have holes in the material on which they are written.
A lot of what you read as they bible today is the result of the scribes in the
middle ages who spilled ink on the pages they were writing, thus changing the
punctuation (in Hebrew, punctuation is *very* important.  That's how "Yahweh"
became "Jehovah" - a few dots out of place).  They also, on occasion, made their
own marginal notations that later scribes had no idea were not part of the
original material and so incorporated inthe main texts.

The church herself has, in the fullness of time, re-evaluated her
interpretations of Scripture.

Finally, never make the mistake of believing that God is no longer actively
revealing Himself to our modern world.  Divine revelation happens all the time
(or don't you believe the Fatima story that's appeared here over the last day or
two?)

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Anglican Church Question...
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 17:52:05 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

Ok, this 'cradle Catholic' needs some help on this one.  There's a sign in a
large empty lot 9 blocks down the street from my house that says:

Future Home of:

Christ Anglican Church

1928 Book of Common Prayer


A local phone number rounds out the sign,  There's also a shield next to the
name of the church which is a cross of St. George, with two white crossed
croziers on a blue field in the upper left quarter.  Now, I'm no expert on
ecclesiastical heraldry, particulary outside of the RCC, but something about
that shield didn't look like a regular Episcopal coat of arms.

Can someone explain the difference between this church-to-be and a typical
Episcopal church?  TIA.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:06:56 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: praying the rosary
              8 Oct 1992 07:09:09 GMT from <topcat@HARDY.U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 07:09:09 GMT Thanh - Vincent said:
>there is a good book "the secret of the rosary"
>by st. louis de montfort
>
>it gives reasons why you should pray the rosary
>shows how powerful it is, with accounts from saints' lives
>and how to pray the rosary
>
>i thought it was a very moving book
>if you pray the rosary now, you will probably pray the rosary
>more faithfully if you read this book.
>
>it's pretty cheap, around $2.95 or so, paper back cover
>     (from Vince)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tan Publishers have it on sale right now for $1.50 each. The more
you buy the cheaper it gets, about $.70 for 10 (?) down to $.40
or maybe less for *many* copies.

Tan Publishers
PO Box 424
Rockford, IL  61105

Also, I have at least 5 of these left that are to pass out to
whoever would like to read them. Remember that this was written
a long time ago and you may have to begin reading under your own
*desire* and not because there is a big hook in the first chapter.
Once into it, it is very interesting reading, to me.
Anyway, first five takers get one, just give me a snail mail
address.

In Christ,
Elizabeth
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:44:50 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Loving

> We are charged
> with loving the unlovable, wheather we like them or not.

This is an interesting turn of phrase, and prompts me to say a few words
about love.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that the primary thing that the Lord
asks of us is to love God and love one another.  This is, at a fundamental
level, a very difficult concept.   Loving people is difficult.  Love is not
some abstract expression of pity, or sympathy.  Love is accepting and helping
someone else, "warts and all," as the saying goes.  It means not condemning
lepers (or people with AIDS).  It is a gift.  It is risky--sometimes
profoundly so.  It means learning to see Christ in places where you wouldn't
have expected to before.  For some, this means seeing the love of God in gay
or lesbian relationships.  For others, it means seeing it in the hearts of
the poor, or rich :).  For me, it sometimes means seeing Christ in the lives
and actions of people I see as Fundamentalist, or otherwise "not my sort of
Christian at all."

Sometimes I see people say, "everyone is free to come to us," and I wonder
how much love this truly involves.  Is this a gift?  Is this stepping out of
the bounds of comfort in order to reach out to another who needs you?

I was recently reading a Jewish mystical work from the middle ages (the
Bahir, for anyone who is interested :)), and was strongly struck by one of
its passages.  Roughly speaking, it describes the difference between angels
and demons, and makes the fascinating assertion that they are of similar
nature, but that demons cannot give, but can only take.  Giving is a
profoundly Godlike ability.  We offer our lives to God, and He then gives
them back to us transformed and renewed.

So should we do as much in our own interactions with others.  We should give
even to those we do not understand, or we don't think "deserve" our gift.
Whether they deserve it or not is not the issue--what is crucial is our
willingness to give our love, without condition, to all who we encounter in
our lives.  Even those we think are wrong.  Even those we think are
unlovable, or not worth our love.  Love is not something to be carefully
rationed, but to be multiplied by being given away.

Among the people I love are many who are "outsiders" in one way or another.
Gay men, lesbians, rich and poor, of all races and backgrounds.  They are all
people, and that is sufficient to merit my love and understanding, however
difficult it may be for me to find it to give.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
--
"There is nowhere you can go and only be with people who are like you.
 Give it up."   --Bernice Johnson Reagon
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:25:07 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Catholic vs. non-Catholic schools

Ed,
I currently have all three of my children in public schools and the whole
family attends CC every other Sunday for an hour and a half. We have an
adult CC class which meets the same time as the childrens' so we an look
at it as a family activity. In fact, several of the sessions are family
activities where all meet in one large room. I should probably point out
that our parish does not have school and we would have to send our children
to the next parish for a "Catholic" school education. I would estimate that
90% of our parishioners don't which probably explains the good support our
CC program has.
As my spouse and I both had Catholic elementary school educations, we did
inquire when our oldest was 4 as to kindergarden at the next parish. We
were told that it would not guarantee his acceptance into the first grade
as their own parishioners had first choice. We then actually 'took a look'
at the public school in our community and were quite impressedat what it had to
 offer. We just 'knew' our 3 and 4 year olds at the time were very bright and
the gifted program the public school offered attracted us. Well we were
blessed with three very intelligent and all three tested into the gifted
program. (My wife and most here will problably agree they got it from her:-)
Anyway we are pleased with the public and CC approach in our parish.

As my spouse subs for both the public and parochial schools in our area (As
I type she's playing Sister Barbara Ann:-) she has observed that it is not
the school but the student and their parents which make an education successful
or not. (But she thinks the public school has more high tech toys:-)
Anyway, to continue the saga, the High School choice arrived this year.
My spouse attended Public, I attended an all boys Catholic School, we both
agreed that the all one sex approach was out for our children. When it came
down to a decision by our son to attend a "local" Catholic High or the local
public, he chose the public. The advanced placement programs he was in were
the same at both schools. His friends (mostly Catholic anyway) also chose the
public high. I guess a lot depends on your local public school system and
the caliber and dedication of the students attending it. We have noticed
that his CC class has shrunk this year, so perhaps without strong parent
support, the CC approach to a Catholic education may not work (or is this
too obvious:-)

Well to close out the story, both my spouse and I graduated from the same
Jesuit University (for some of you, this may not count as a Catholic
education:-) and for you romantics, we met and married in the band)
Don't know if this is what you were looking for Ed, I tend to ramble:-)
We'll offer our daughters the same school choices, but their local public
school spirit appears to be the same as our sons' is. - J.J.
-just another cradle cafeteria catholic with no credibility:-)-
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Hey, we don't hate people who disagree!
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:39:30 GMT

     Concerning the recent discussion on homosexuality, etc.:

     Is it not possible to love someone, yet disapprove of their actions?
I have some dear friends that do things the Church and I consider wrong.
They know what I think, but we are *friends*.

     This all seems like an offshoot of Moral Relativism=> What right does
anyone have to criticize the actions of anyone else? It seems like
today if you say that any way of life is better than any other you
are labeled "Close-minded", "Pandering Hate," "Nazi." This is
unfair and untrue. Certainly we are called to love one another as ourselves,
but part of that love is helping people to overcome their problems.
Saying "Homosexual activity is wrong" does not equal saying "I hate
homosexuals."

Hoping to keep the discussion civil :)
Karl
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Authority on the Church...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:50:11 GMT

In article <01GPN2Q6SE2O8WWEU4@umassd.edu> Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU> writ
es:
>I don't understand how a Pope is chosen.  The previous post suggested
>that since the USA gives alot of money, the next pope could be chosen
>from the states.
>
>Now, I thought the Pope was hand-picked from God to carry on the
>church.  Why does money come into it?  Is Peter's successor chosen
>because of money???  Or does one become 'special' after one is
>chosen???
>
It's really quite simple. The College of Cardinals, having gather in a solemn 
conclave, pray together for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and then hold an 
election. Each Cardinal is given a ballot that reads "Eligo in Summum 
Pontificem" --I choose/elect as Supreme Pontiff "fill in the blank". The one 
who gets the required majority, which I BELIEVE is two-thirds plus one, becomes
Bishop of Rome (= pope) is he accepts. He doesn't have to. What does this mean?
That human beings have to be God's instrument in choosing the successor of 
Peter. If any of the electors let his vote be influenced by money, that would 
be a grave sin. The election takes place in a sealed environment to prevent 
outside influence, financial or otherwise. If someone really believe that 
Catholics could stop giving money to the Holy See and thereby influence a Papal
Election, then I feel sorry for such a person--but I hope no one really 
believes that.

Peace
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: grape juice (was: Not about women priests....)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22050]: okeanos
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 01:00:09 GMT

In article <921006140507.28801537@beast.cs.hh.ab.com> URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>The issue of grape juice has been dicussed in our parish as an alternative
>to the useof wine for our children and recovering AA's

I was under the impression that grape juice was allowed in these cases,
and particularly in the case of alcoholic priests.

Is this correct, or am I (yet again) misled?

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 10:12:24 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Homosexuality

Did anyone see the segment on, I believe it was 20/20 a couple of months
ago regarding homosexuality?  A Psychologist was claiming a high success
rate in "curing" homosexual men.  His claim was that most male homosexuals
had the same pattern of having a poor relationship with their father.  He
encouraged the men to find an older man as a father figure and establish
a bond (non-homosexual of course) with them as part of the cure.
     They interviewed a couple of the "cured" men who had since married &
had kids, etc.  They claimed to be much happier now, but admitted that a
few of the old tendencies persisted from time to time.
     That, along with the numerous people out there claiming to be
ex-homosexuals and support groups for ex-homosexuals, leads me to wonder
how much homosexuality is non-genetic.  I've read of at least a couple of
psychologists who believe it is a sexual addiction similar to pornographic
addiction.
     Now please, before the flames start, I'm only addressing the other side
of this issue.  It doesn't mean I hate homosexuals or have no compassion for
them.  I'm just not sure that the evidence for genetic homosexuality is
complete.

Brent Winiger
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com ()
Subject: Stay or leave....
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 13:29:47 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Thanks so much to all those who responded to my query! I admit I did expect
more "Get out!" responses from this newsgroup which so strongly advocates
or defends the RCC! I was beginning to believe the RCC was more concerned
about the "rules/laws" of the Church than the individual needs or 
concerns of her members such as myself.

But what I read here were the most loving and personal responses,
thank you all! I guess the Church (the people) who strongly defend her have NOT
lost track of the fact that we are made up of humans. You certainly 
reinforced my awareness of that.

I do need to investigate more what the Church says are the "must follow"
tenets of Roman Catholicism.... my todo.

Thanks for the info about the Episcopal Church, another investigation
process for my todo list.

This is a difficult concept for me (leaving), so I certainly am seeking
many avenues of guidance, be assured!

Thanks for the help! I currently continue my RCC standing; if anything
changes, perhaps I'll be around to post....
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:18:27 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls and millstones

Excerpts from catholic: 8-Oct-92 Re: Altar girls and millstones Edward
J. Branley@MINTIR (2513)

> I have a hard time accepting that any Church findings in which a man
> capable of such an immoral act as the Cinel incident participated to be
> infallible.  These men are human, and capable of errors, sin, and gross
> violations of human decency.  While the issues they decide and pronounce
> are authoritative, there is little that can convince me that they cannot
> be changed at some point in time if they are established to be incorrect.

Bishops are NOT individually infallible.  They are infallible when they
speak in union with one another in ecumenical council.  The Bishop of
Rome, when he speaks ex cathedra -- a rare occurence -- is the only
instance of individual infallibility.

Infallibility is also unrelated to impeccability.  Simply because a Pope
sins does not mean that he cannot be infallible.  Since all humans are
subject to original sin, God must rule through sinful men, but that does
not preclude them from being able to define infallible articles of faith
and morals.

While the instructions of the bishop are to be respected -- indeed, St.
Ignatius of Antioch in 110 A.D. instructed his readers to obey the
bishop as God Himself -- they are not infallible individually and there
is plenty of room for disagreement, especially for the laymen.  And when
obedience to a bishop means clear disobedience to God, God must be
obeyed.

Eric
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:38:28 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Homosexuality

On Oct 7,  1:41am, "(Sharon O'Neil)" wrote:
} Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
} Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> writes:
}
} >I must say that I am impressed with the reaction to her behavior,
} >especially from an audience like SNL.  If someone says something awful
} >about any Protestant minister, they are usually given great applause.
} >But I continue to be amazed at the respect even the godless have for the
} >Pope.  This is somewhat encouraging.
}
} Why do you assume those in the audience are "godless?"

I think Eric was making a parenthetical comment, not specifically
addressed at the SNL audience.
}
} But at the same time, I think that the Church does cause a great deal of
} pain for gay people.  Now, I am heterosexual, but I know a lot of gay
} people and I just can't believe that it is a choice.  I think it is
} biological, I really, really do.  And if it is biological, I don't believe
} that it is a sin.  Although, I do think that promiscuity is wrong, I actually
} have to say I don't think that homosexuality is a sin.  Just because
} someone is gay doesn't automatically mean that he or she is promiscuous.

	It's quite true that someone being homosexual doesn't mean they
are promiscuous.  The Church does not condemn a homosexual tendency or
sexual preference; the Church condemns homosexual acts.  While I would
agree that, for many homosexuals (though not necessarily all) their
sexual preference is not a choice, surely you don't think that their
acts are not their choice?  If I as an unmarried (heterosexual) male
am called to be celibate, why should an unmarried (homosexual) male
*not* be called to be celibate?  The Church's rule is the same --
sex outside of marriage is sinful.  This applies to homosexuality
or heterosexuality.

GZ
}-- End of excerpt from "(Sharon O'Neil)"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
In marriage, as in war, it is permitted to take every advantage of the enemy.
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 09:51:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Authority on the Church...

>If we are to go on what comes from Rome, then yes, the Pope is chosen
>through God's wisdom which he passes onto the Sacred College of
>Cardinals when they make their vote. Actually, from what I have come
>to understand, there is much political maneuvering which occurs. Factions
>are created to provide voting power to a candidate... It gets really
>nasty. Almost as dirty (if not dirtierr) than U.S. politics. Men will be
>men, whether a common man or one clocked in Scarlet Cloth. The ambitions
>which drive the common man also drive the clergy. Think about it... Power
>over 43 million people plus infalible... Who wouldn't be driven to strive
>for that position... Politics plays an important role in the on-going
>operations of the church. When the search was on for an Archbishop for

I have no doubt that the above is true.  But just listen to what is
being said.  The pope, who is infallable, successor to Peter,
specially annointed by God .... is chosen by people who are involved
in playing politics, money pushing and behind the scene power plays.

Didn't God choose Peter to start his church?  Why are people choosing
the successors?

					Liz Moreau
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