From: tjdoran@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (TJ Doran)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:54:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.055554.32254@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>In <TODD.92Dec18120557@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Dec16.211950.9531@advtech.uswest.com> steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes:
>
>>(WRT health, I already clarified
>>that I do not oppose abortion when a woman's health is in danger -
>>when it isn't, all she risks is stretch marks - it's vanity).
>
>Very wrong - see below.
>
>>The flimsyness of your arguements almost speak for themselves.
>
>Your ignorance appears to be boundless.

The following is a looong list of the terrible things that can happen
to a pregnant woman. Without adressing abortion at all, let's take a close
look at these lists.

>%From: jbrindle@nwnexus.WA.COM (Jennifer Brindle)
>%Newsgroups: talk.abortion
>%Subject: Re: We Won't Go Back/April 5th/March for Abortion Rights
>%Message-ID: <1992Apr1.000621.3010@nwnexus.WA.COM>
>%Date: 1 Apr 92 00:06:21 GMT
>%Distribution: usa
>%Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
>%
>%Even healthy women are harmed to some degree by a pregnancy.
>%A woman does not return to her pre-pregnant state exactly.  I've been
>%through a pregnancy, have you?
>%
>%I can no longer breathe freely thanks to my first pregnancy.
>%My long-term health has been dramatically reduced by being pregnant.
>%Whatever statistical reductions for cancer, etc do not outweigh, IMO,
>%the daily agony I go through just to breathe.  My condition is not
>%uncommon; my ear, nose, and throat specialist says that such complaints
>%are COMMON after a pregnancy.  I awaken every morning retching to clear
>%my sinus, throat, and nose.  You call that healthy?

IMHO, could be a systemic yeast infection - usually goes undiagnosed 
(the existence of this type of infection is, by some doctors, denied 
outright. You may need a 2nd opinion.). *Often* contracted during the
multitudes of vaginal exams during pregnancy, usually heightened by
prescribed antibiotics and epidurals which lower counts of competing
bacteria throughout the body.

(I hope the on-line diagnosis doesn't seem arrogant. I've seen people
with such infections (if this is indeed your problem) and understand
what you're going through).
 
>%>Tell it to all the women who have lived with gestational diabetes,
>%>or died of toxemia.  Tell it to all the women who have suffered
>%>permanent connective tissue damage, or nutritional deficiencies
>%>due to poor diet during pregnancy.

Gestational diabetes has recently been proven a myth (see 'A Guide
to Effective Pregnancy and Childbirth', Murray Enkin, Marc Keirse and
Ian Chalmers, Oxford University Press). What doctors do is starve the
woman then feed them a large amount of glucose. Shortly thereafter, they
test the urine for glucose. Of course, her renal tubules, responsible for
resorbing glucose after blood filtration, are overloaded and glucose
is released into urine.

Funny thing is, some men develop 'gestational diabetes' after this test too.

>%You got it Muriel.
>%
>%>Osteoporosis is less likely
>%>for mothers only if they get adequate calcium during pregnancy.
>%>Otherwise the fetus takes its supply from her bones and teeth.

So get enough calcium, like your doctor (bloody well should) tell you. If
s/he doesn't tell you how, see another doctor or a nutritionist.

>%Exactly.  In fact, the fetus TAKES WHATEVER IT NEEDS from the woman,
>%regardless if she can spare it.  She's the one who suffers, not
>%the fetus.

If the woman takes care of herself, she *can* spare it.

>%Oh, and "drink more milk" isn't the answer.  My OB has told me to
>%drink the usual amount of milk, or less, because of my personal
>%problems.  I'm taking calcium suppliments instead.
>%
>%>Finally, she has a 22 times greater chance of dying from carrying
>%>the fetus to term than she has from a first-tri abortion.

I have no statistic to address this. Maternal death rates during childbirth
are *remarkably* low.

>%While _most_ problems encountered by a woman when pregnant disappear after
>%the birth, some do remain, and the long-term effects of these problems
>%are still present.  For instance, did you know that once a woman has
>%contracted gestational diabetes, the chances of her spontaneously aborting
>%or a stillbirth are much greater?  That happened to a friend of mine in
>%Atlanta:  she had GD during her first pregnancy; miscarried in her 5th month
>%for her second; and only after continuous bed rest delivered her third
>%pregnancy to term.

Gestational diabetes - see above.

>%And there are some non-medical problems associated with pregnancy/children:
>%Did you know that the presense of your first child can seriously undermine
>%your marriage?  Many marriages with no serious problems have disintegrated
>%because of the extra strain of that third person around?  Your relation
>%will change, and you must make an extra effort to maintain its health.
>%If you don't, chances are you will be heading for divorce court.  I used
>%to wonder how a couple could split up after having a baby, now I know.

Agreed. It's a strain on any relationship. This varies, depending on
individual relationships. Many improve after childbirth.
.
>%In conclusion, there are pros and cons of both abortion and giving birth.
>%Each woman can only make that decision herself, since it directly affects
>%(effects?) her health, life, and relationship.  Hopefully, she won't make
>%either decision without the assistance and cooperation of her mate, but
>%in the end, it is her decision ALONE.  With the personal stakes so high,
>%no one else is qualified to make that decision for her.
>%
>%Jennifer

>#From: judy@electra.la.locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
>#Newsgroups: talk.abortion
>#Subject: Re: A case for unborn babies
>#Message-ID: <6001@oolong.la.locus.com>
>#Date: 23 Mar 90 20:28:48 GMT
>#
>#In article <39236@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>
>#sl197009@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chima Echeruo) writes:
>#
>#>6) An newborn infant is completely helpless and absolutely dependent on it's
>#>   mother or any other caretaker. The infant requires constant care by it's
>#>   parents while the fetus does not make claims on it's mother.
>#>
>#
>#Hee Hee Hee... let me guess, you've never been pregnant and you have
>#never cared for a newborn.
>#
>#Not that this is terribly relevant to your original posting, but I
>#just cannot help myself.
>#
>#1) Newborns are not completely helpless.  They can bat things away
>#from their faces.  They can communicate to others around them.  They
>#can root for the breast to obtain food.  And they can survive a
>#surprisingly long time in garbage cans (there are a number who have
>#been found up to 24 hours after birth which have been thrown away by
>#their parents).  Now, they are dependent on having someone provide
>#them with food and sustenance.  But I'll take caring for a one day old
>#baby over a 39 1/2 week old fetus any day of the week.

'Friad this isn't in my texts. :-)

>#2) The fetus ABSOLUTELY makes claims on it's mother.  During the first
>#3 months of development, the change in hormones causes the mother's
>#breasts to swell (painfully, I might add).  It causes, over 50% of the
>#time, severe nausea and vomiting.  It causes fatigue beyond belief.
>#(I personally found that less than 20 hours sleep a day was
>#insufficient).

True. Nearly all of this goes away, though...

>#THe fetus depletes the mother of iron, calcium, protein, vitamins, and
>#minerals.  In the event the mother does not have enough of any of
>#these, the fetus gets first dubs and the mother's health is at risk.

As above, a mother who takes care of herself is not at a risk of
malnutrition.

>#During the first trimester, the fetus is also growing low within the
>#mother's abdoment causing the mother to frequent the bathroom at least
>#every hour, if not more so.  This is very disruptive to the mother's
>#sleep.  This cycle begins again at about 8 1/2 months when the fetus'
>#head drops back down into the abdomen.  Only then the mother cannot
>#get out of bed by herself and so this also disrupts the father's
>#sleep.

Yup.

>#Throughout the pregnancy the hormones cause significant changes to the
>#mothers emotional stability, making her weepy, irrational, and often
>#quite crazed.

Yup. (crazed???)
)
>#As the fetus grows, the mothers body changes for birth.  These changes
>#include the loosening of all ligaments within the body making the
>#mother more prone to fall and more prone to injury during a fall.

Never heard of this (doesn't mean it's not true, of course). Very interesting.

>#The fetus requires the mother's heart to pump 50% more blood and for
>#the mother's lungs to take in 50% more oxygen.  The hormonal changes
>#of pregnancy effect the production of insulin and many women get
>#gestational diabetes which will permanently affect the woman's ability
>#to keep her blood sugar stable.  A woman's blood pressure increases
>#and her body retains large amounts of water which can lead to a
>#syndrom called eclampsia.  THe result of eclampsia is coma and death.

50% more blood/oxygen? Could you quote your sources, please?

Gestational diabetes - see above.

Eclipsia - This is horribly oversimplified. 5% of pregnant women with
*preexisting* hypertension or vascular disease develop PRE-eclipsia. Of this
5%, 0.5% develop eclipsia due to lack of treatment.  (Merck Manual, 16th ed.).

>#The growth of the fetus causes a woman's center of balance to be
>#altered often causing injury to the lower back.  The mother's internal
>#organs are compressed, this includes the heart, liver, lungs, and
>#digestive tract.  The compression of the digestive tract causes
>#constipation which, in turn, causes hemmeroids.  The urinary tract is
>#taxed by removing wastes from the additional 50% blood the woman is
>#pumping.

Most of this is during the last 8 wks; all except some womens' back pain
goes away after childbirth.

>#The skin covering the abdomen is stretched and often tears painfully
>#in what are commonly called "stretch marks".  These are permanent and
>#while they no longer are painful after birth, they represent permanent
>#disfigurement.

Permanancy and severity of stretch marks depend on the woman. Stretch
marks are *not* neccessarily permanent.

>#The breasts begin to secrete colostrum in about the 8th to 9th month
>#of pregnancy.  They are usually two to three times as large as normal
>#when the milk comes in.  THe ligaments supporting the breast are
>#stretched and the breast will never recover its original shape.

While its shape may be altered (again, depends on the woman), the breast
is not destroyed by pregnancy.
Apparently, breastfeeding helps reduce this effect.

>#During labor, women can have strokes, heart attacks, and seizures
>#brought on by the stress caused to the body.  If the placenta is
>#placed incorrectly within the uterus, a condition called placenta
>#previa can occur and the woman can bleed to death.  During delivery,
>#tears in the vaginal wall can be deep enough to enter the anus causing
>#infection of the vagina from fecal bacteria.

Heart attacks, strokes, etc. are rare (sorry, have no stats). A woman's
body actively prepares for the stresses of labour.

Bleeding to death? From placental previa? Maybe if she lives in the bush,
completely isolated from any doctors.

Tears in the vaginal wall can be reduced or eliminated by peritoneal
massage - ask a midwife.

>#In the event that the baby is unable to come through the birth canal,
>#the woman must undergo major abdominal surgery.  This involves
>#permanent scarring, risk from anasthesia, risk of major infection, and
>#risk from blood loss.

Doctors often X-ray the woman's pelvis about a week before labour, and
decide *then* whether the baby will be able to pass through the birth canal,
disregrading the fact that the pelvis will stretch significantly during
that week. This is the most common reason given for the ridiculously high
rate of c-sections in North America. Doctors properly trained in
vaginal births perform many fewer (~95% fewer) c-sections.

>#Now I'm sure I missed something, but I hope I have dispelled the myth
>#that pregnancy is benign and doesn't cost the woman anything.  It has
>#a very real detriment to the woman's health and ability to function
>#and poses a very real risk to the woman's life.

Again, death rates due to childbirth are extremely low.

>#Judy
>=======================================
>$Newsgroups: talk.abortion
>$Path: yktnews!admin!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu
>$From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
>$Subject: Some effects of Pregnancy
>$Message-ID: <1992Aug17.194346.2895@menudo.uh.edu>
>$Sender: usenet@menudo.uh.edu (USENET News System)
>$Nntp-Posting-Host: uhad1.admin.uh.edu
>$Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
>$Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:43:46 GMT
>$X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20
>$Lines: 137
>$
[Stuff from a medical text deleted - no argument here...]
>$
>@Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 22:53:03 EST
>@From: Linda Birmingham <ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
>@Message-ID: <92282.225303ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
>@Newsgroups: talk.abortion
>@Subject: Re: SAT worship
>

[More stuff from textbook deleted...]

>@I could also provide Taber's very lengthy description of labour
>@if anyone so desires.
>@
>@But don't let any of this dissuade you Mr. Nyikos from thinking
>@that being pregnant and birthing is nothing but a romp in the
>@park, you of course are free to perceive the world in whatever
>@way you wish.  I however am more inclined to accept what I have
>@read in medical journals and textbooks and my own experience,
>@than your version of your wife's pregnancy as a norm.
>@
>@Linda
>@--
>@"I saw my doctor at the checkup six weeks after my baby was born.
>@Full of male pride, he told me during my pelvic exam, "I did a
>@beautiful job sewing you up.  You're as tight as a virgin; your
>@husband should thank me".  The New Our Bodies, Ourselves
>=======================================
>
>"all she risks is stretch marks" - Hah!
>--
>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)

Pregnancy and birth are *anything* but a romp in the park, but let's
keep things in perspective...

Medical journals don't deal with normal pregnancy/childbirth. As a result,
they tend to sound pretty scary. There's more to it than can be found there.

As for the quote;

Episiotomy (cutting the peritoneum from the vaginal wall to the anus,
according to doctors neccessary to allow the baby to pass through the
vagina) is the ONLY surgery in North America which doesn't require the
patient's permission. Some (insensitive, backward) doctors, when stitching
up the incision, put in one extra stitch (the 'husband' stitch) to tighten
the vagina which has stretched some.

Perfect example of (fading (?)) male bullshit in medicine.
See 'Instituionalized Violence Against Women' by Sheila Kissinger.


-- 
TJ Doran  	              |"There you stand like a duck in a thunderstorm
TJDORAN@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca | again... Aren't you ever going to understand?" 
                              |                         - W.A. Mozart
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals