HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Comparing styles - which one is best?
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:40:48 +0000



Brian Hendrix writes:
>          himself in a position to use his art?  A judoka will win
>          if he gets to grapple with the boxer, a boxer will win
>          if he can close and strike fast enough to prevent
>          grappling.  You simply cannot compare different arts in
>          this manner, and I wonder why people continue to do this?


I haven't been reading this news group (extended dojo) for very long
but it does seem that alot of comparison between arts does go on.


Although I believe that it is a nonsense to compare arts with a view
to deciding which is "best", these discussions do tend to yield a huge
amount of information about the various arts. Therefore we all learn a
great deal which is the main reason (at least for me) that we are
here. Take for instance the boxing vs kicking thread, I've learned much
about boxing that I would not have learned elsewhere.


So as far as I'm concerned keep those discussions going, I find them
very useful.


>Please forgive this lurker for such a long and rambling post.  I enjoy
Forgiven - please post again!


>reading this forum and seeing the sharing that goes on.  I have always
>admired the participants for respecting each other and each other's arts.
>It saddens me when someone says:  "Art X is useless, 'cause I can just
>kick and not let the guy get within range."  It especially saddens me
>when someone tries to say "Art X isn't really a martial art, but my art
>is a *real* martial art."
Absolutely!


Bill Burgar


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: uzgiris@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jim Uzgiris)
Subject: guardian angels
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 04:24:04 GMT

Are there any guardian angels out there? 
If so, could you send me info on who to get in touch with in the Chicago  
area to find out more about your program.

Jim Uzgiris
Uzgiris@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: kiai as a weapon...
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:18:37 GMT


perhaps a kiai works because, if done correctly, it sounds almost
animal-like. as a result the brain freezes the body up as if expecting
a threat...the good old subconcious takes over and cries "DANGER!".

i also wonder if the frequency of the shout could make a difference. 
something like a resonance effect could be taking place.

-mukund
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Subject: Re: kicking from the ground
Reply-To: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Organization: University of Ulm, SAI, Germany
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 12:59:55 GMT

In article <3657@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep11.144246.18504@ms.uky.edu> cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) writes:
|> >she got her legs around his waist and squeezed until he passed out.
|> 
|> 	<pardon me until I stop laughing...>
|> 
|> 	There are a series of very effective chokes using the leg
|> scissors; in judo it's illegal to apply a leg scissors directly so
|> we do it by sliding a hand in between one leg and the guy's neck.  But
|> unless you could squeeze hard enough to crush someone's ribs it's difficult
|> to believe you could use a leg scissors to the trunk as a valid self-defense
|> technique...  It's not even a good way to control your opponent on the
|> ground.
|> 								wr

Don't go for the ribs with this technique which is called "Nierenschere"
in German (which means "kidney scissors" in English - ideas, anyone?).
I have made some people yell by applying it. But the fatter someone
is, the less he is impressed (pun intended) by this.

Reinhard
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Date: 10 Sep 1992 21:31:49 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <3632@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <12510007@hplsla.hp.com> natalies@hplsla.hp.com (Natalie Schuchard) writes:
>>This works for the woman's advantage, since the 
>>ground is her strongest position if she knows how to use it.
>
>I'm not sure I understand this.  If I was a lighter person with less upper
>body strength the very last place I'd want to be is in a ground fight.

True, if the ground fight in question is a Judo match.  Not necessarily 
if the ground fight is a rape.  In a rape situation, the goal is not to be 
the one on top, as in a Judo match.  The goal is to deliver incapacitating
injury to someone trying to rape you.  On the ground, a woman can employ 
both legs simultaneously toward this end.

Of course, a wheel kick to the face would probably be a more productive 
technique than anything employed on the ground, but remember, we're talking
about simple-stupid, effective techniques for the non-martial artist.



-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst")
Subject: Attitudes (wasRe- Silent or 
Distribution: world
Organization: IE Technical Services Holland
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:27:00 +0000


In article <1992Sep9.030235.2643@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov writes:

>
>In article nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst") writes:
>>Pure kiai can stop an attacker totally, they will freeze, even
>>fall over.  I know this can be done from my own experience.  It is
>>said that the masters (fortunately apparently very few) can go a
>>lot further.  This I can believe because in Han there is a similar
>>tradition of a `spirit shout', which it is reputed could kill.
>
>Sound can certainly be used as a weapon.  E.g., the flash-bang
>grenades used by anti-terrorist forces are highly disorienting.
>But the idea that anyone can kiai in such a way as to
>consistently knock down determined attackers (let alone kill
>them) strikes me as pretty far-fetched.  Am I being too narrow
>minded about this?  If you think so, is it just because you like
>to keep an open mind about such things, or do you have some
>actual experience with these uses of kiai?
>--
I have personnal experience of it.  Having been sent sprawling with
a kiai from from my Sensie, I took the time and trouble to look
into it further.  I cannot claim to be all that successful, though
in perfect situations I could stop an attacker making them freeze,
and a couple of times managed to get them to fall over.

There is far more too it than just a very loud shout.  In fact it
seems that it need not be all that loud at all.  What is needed is
concentration, the correct sound, and above all timing.  If you can
`freeze' somebody at the correct point in thier stride, their momentum
at that moment will unbalance them and they will fall.

Regards

Nigel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Backhurst ( nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk )
c/o 88 Ashburton Road, Hugglescote, Coalville, LE6 2LX, U.K.
p/a IE Technical Services Holland, Deventerstr 150, 7321 CE Apeldoorn
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kenfield@lucy.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: Upcoming Martial Arts Movies
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:21:14 PDT

In article <1992Sep9.231043.6527@wam.umd.edu>, kckbxr@next11pg2.wam.umd.edu (Robin Hood) writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.222058.179@news.uwyo.edu> rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu  
> (Rich Travsky) writes:
>> Well, our Macho Martial Arts Supply Catalog just arrived, along with
>> its own version of the Hollywood Beat. Here is a list of upcoming/in
>> progress martial arts films. The info related is pretty much all that
>> the newsletter had to offer. Additons/corrections welcome.
>
> [List of movies deleted]
>
> Bill

Friday night, I saw trailer for Steven Seagal's new flick, "Under Siege."  The
rumours going 'round rec-ma in the spring were pretty much right.  He is the
cook on board a ship taken by terrorists.  However there are a few other
things.  The ship is battleship carrying nuclear cruise-missiles, and he is
apparently an ex-seal.  To quote the trailer, "He slices, he dices, he mows
them all down."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: What happens when you cross styles?
Keywords: Aikido TaeKwonDo
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:55:16 GMT

Well, if the style is Italian and connected, you probably win a brand new pair
of concrete galoshes, a free tour of the bottom of the Gowanis Canal (Brooklyn)
and get to sleep with the fish.  Beyond that, I haven't a clue.

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Incorporating kicks into boxing (Re: Sigh... boxing)
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:44:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.170332.6201@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:

[I agree with Peter Capell that the fighter who can kick as 
well as punch will generally beat the fighter who can only punch.]

>I argue otherwise, in one minor respect, though I think it's more
>embellishment than argument .  I think that given
>two good hand fighters, having one learn to throw kicks without incorporating
>them well actually gives them a disadvantage.  The additional tools 
>and range they can use is offset by the problem of kicks and punches
>having somewhat different mechanics.  They will tend to leave more openings
>when throwing kicks than they can take advantage of by having more techniques.

Good point.  I imagine that boxers trying to reprogram themselves
for the kickbocking circuit run smack into this problem.  Right
after learning how to handle a single stick pretty well, I had to
learn how to coordinate a stick in one hand and a dagger in the
other.  I still remember feeling like I was starting all over
again.  For a while, I'm sure I was less effective and more
vulnerable when wielding both weapons than when I only had to
worry about one or the other. I guess this is a case of the
whole being less than the sum of its parts.

Still, I think this is usually just a temporary state of affairs.
Over time, I certainly learned how to integrate stick and
dagger.  And there is no reason to suppose that a boxer, who has
already learned to coordinate left and right hand techniques,
could not be trained to use his hands and feet in a
complementary fashion.  Of course, then he wouldn't be Boxing
anymore, but that's a whole 'nother issue.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: goodwin@orionsci (Ben Goodwin)
Subject: Re: Moving during kicking
Reply-To: goodwin@orionsci.UUCP (Ben Goodwin)
Organization: Orion Scientific, Inc.
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 11:58:39 GMT

In article <MARY.92Sep4232718@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
>
>In article <Bu2Jo5.L79@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>   In a reverse jump kick, you jump up and kick with your back leg.  When
>   you are retreating this means that instead of stepping back with
>   your lead leg, you actually jump back and drive the other leg forward
>   at the advancing opponent.  There's plenty of torque generated by the
>   hips using this move, at least with a front kick.  And although I'm
>   not good enough at it yet, I've seen people do the same thing with a
>   spinning jump side thrust kick (jump back side kick to some people;
>   jumping dui yup chagi to others), which is an even stronger kick.
>
>As many people have noted, the jumping kicks (and particularly the 
>retreating jumping kicks) lose some power vs. standing kicks, because 
>of the lack of a stable base.  If properly executed, however, they
>gain some power because they are executed from a greater height, 
>kicking down.  I know a guy who is not especially agile or graceful,
>but who can execute this kick with great success because he has
>good timing and can come down with his full weight into the kick.  
>He can reliably knock opponents off their feet, even when he does
>this as a retreating kick.  

Correct, we're taught to do this kick in the stomache.  If someone starts
kicking too high, he's told to lower it.  And if you're retreating then
he's charging.  I was taught that his forward momentum is giong to add
even more power to your kick.  I mean he's running into the damn thing!
Ouch!  We practice offensive and defensive jump spin backs about once a
week, with a guy charging us, holding one of those big black targets.
Significant power is generated.  Trust me.

>
>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
> mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
>


-- 

-Ben
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: FTP or something similar for old rec.m-a posts
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:09:37 GMT


are there some of the older rec.m-a posts on file somewhere? so ftp
site perhaps? 

i am looking for posts before Jan '92. 

thanks,

mukund
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Attitudes (wasRe- Silent or
Date: 11 Sep 1992 20:48:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

In article 10691@sun13.scri.fsu.edu, poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) writes:
>In article <MHIRSCH.92Sep10113435@dynastar.princeton.edu> mhirsch@dynastar.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch) writes:
>>Have you ever seen the video of Morehei Ueshiba (O'Sensei, to
>>aikidoka) from around 1935 or so?  It's an early sound film.
>
>(I'm grovelling)
>
>I've been trying to get my hands on some videos of Ueshiba for quite a
>while. If anyone knows where such things might be found, please let me
>know. I'd do a lot for such a thing.
>
>David Poore
>poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu


Have you tried your local University?  I first saw films of Ueshiba
when I was in grade school...I was visiting the local Univeristy
and they had this tape in their Film Library.  It was one of
the things that made me start MA.

Years latter, and I find out that my girl friends dad trained under
one of Ueshiba's main students...and sometimes with the man himself.
Strange how the world moves.  Now if we just lived close enough
to her dad that I could get training...

	-Garth




			= = = = = = =
  | Garth R. Doverspike		Sun Microsystems, S.E. Seattle |
  | garth.doverspike@west.sun.com			       |
From: scollins@wpi.WPI.EDU (Suppasak Collins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Savate and Muay Thai principles (was Boxing and Kicks)
Date: 15 Sep 1992 01:12:37 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <shane-150992091834@a-mac.psy.uq.oz.au> shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Shane Brown) writes:
>In article <5442@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>, zhou@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Zhou J)
>wrote:
>(re: a Muay Thai fight)
>> A GROIN KICK almost knocked a Dutchman out but he recovered after all that
>> stretching etc. only to KO his opponent with the first attack which was a      > roundhouse to the head. That kick narrowly missed the referee as he just       > restarted the fight and went straightinto the head of the British.  He fell
>> like a bag of potatos, the fighters weighed at least 80-90Kg mind you.
>> 
>> cheers
>> 
>> Joey
>
>G'Day,
>Surely a kick to the goolies isn't legal in Muay Thai ? 
>
>
>Shane Brown: shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au  fax +617 365 4466 

I don't know where these fights take place, but in Thailand, groin strikes
are illegal (although they often get hit there by a badly directed knee or
two).

-Art


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Internal Arts...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 18:31:20 GMT

In article <18r6p1INN4bq@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>>i often hear t'ai chi, bagua and hsing-i (xingyi?) in the same sentence. 
>>is there a lot of similarity in these three arts?

>Only in the sense that all three depend heavily on "internal" development 
>to make them work at all, albeit to three very different ends.  One might 
>arguably include Aikido in the group...

The connection between T'ai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing-I is a little closer
than that: Not only are they internal martial arts, but their internal
development and techniques is almost identicle. It's quite easy to
teach all three at the same time, since there is a large overlap
between them. 

I don't know about Aikido (so I can't say how much it depends on
"internal" techniques), but I suspect it's means of developing these
techniques is very different. (E.g. it's a different school of
internal martial art.)

                                                 Frank Crary
                                                 CU Boulder
From: shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Shane Brown)
Subject: Re: Savate and Muay Thai principles (was Boxing and Kicks)
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: University of Queensland. Oz.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:23:11 GMT

In article <5442@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>, zhou@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Zhou J)
wrote:
(re: a Muay Thai fight)
> A GROIN KICK almost knocked a Dutchman out but he recovered after all that
> stretching etc. only to KO his opponent with the first attack which was a      > roundhouse to the head. That kick narrowly missed the referee as he just       > restarted the fight and went straightinto the head of the British.  He fell
> like a bag of potatos, the fighters weighed at least 80-90Kg mind you.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Joey

G'Day,
Surely a kick to the goolies isn't legal in Muay Thai ? 


Shane Brown: shane@psych.psy.uq.oz.au  fax +617 365 4466
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Too Silent, Too Vocal
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:29:31 GMT
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com

In article 1921@craycos.com, sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:

>I think we're confusing an internal state/process and one of its external
>manifestations. If you look at the kanji for "kiai", you'll see the 
>same two kanji that make up "aiki". You'll see the kanji "ki", which means
>so very many things in Japanese that it's impossible to translate
>accurately into English, and you'll see "ai" which means (among many
>other translations in Nelson's):
>	join together
>	unite
>	add 
>	combine

Ki (how can we not differentiate) is usually explained as Cosmic Ki and 
Internal Ki. We inhale Cosmic Ki which animates our Spirit. When we exhale,
we are returning part of our Spirit back to it's Cosmic Source, thus, through
the process of breathing we are united with Tao. 

>Not a peep about "yelling" in there anywhere. "Kiai" is a lot of spirit/energy/
>strength/determination/etc. accumulated in one place. The yell is a
>side effect. Don't confuse the bang with the bullet.

The Yell is the Martial application of Kiai, although, Steve is correct in
that Kiai does not have to be a Yell. (I'm terrible at remembering names...)
In "The Way & The Power", the author sums up the distinction nicely by 
saying that Kiai is the Spirit we should our opponents. The greater the 
Kiai, basically the greater Fighting Spirit we project (if appropriate).

>Some people have incredible kiai and don't make a sound. Some people 
>sound like World War III and don't have any kiai at all. 
>If you face someone who makes your knees turn to jelly everytime you *think*
>about attacking him/her, you've experienced "kiai" - whether your ears
>registered anything or not. If you *have* kiai, the shout will happen
>all by itself if it's appropriate. It'll erupt without any real effort
>on your part.

I was taught that Kiai (Yell) has 3 components; pitch, tone and volume. No
one can say what is the right Kiai for someone, however, when someone has
the right Kiai, they and their opponent will know. It is because the Yell
must be accompanied by a Still (Aiki) Spirit which becomes projected in the
Yell. Not much different from what Steve wrote above.

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@dynastar.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: Attitudes (wasRe- Silent or
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:34:35 GMT

>>>>> On 9 Sep 92 22:26:01 GMT, nigel@ietech.demon.co.uk ("Nigel G. Backhurst") said:

NB> In article <SCHAN.92Sep9085800@birch.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil writes:

>        Kiai-jutsu was supposed to be a very real thing "back in the good old
>days" ( BITGOD ?). At the Karate/Kenjutsu dojo where I used to train, we were
>told that the system had 7 different kiai. There was a kiai to create an
>opening during your opponent's attack, a kiai to help you generate power, a
>certain kind of victory/exhultation kiai, etc...
>        As someone else pointed out, a Real Kiai (tm) is much more than just
>loud - it's supposed to be sorta "spooky", because it doesn't sound like a
>noise that human beings make.
>

NB> Interesting.  I had never heard the description spooky used before
NB> in connection with kiai, though my own experiments in this area have
NB> produced some very wierd effects at time.

Have you ever seen the video of Morehei Ueshiba (O'Sensei, to
aikidoka) from around 1935 or so?  It's an early sound film.

At one point about 6 students grab him and push (or hold, or
something)  He stands their, then emits a really bizarre kiai that
sounds a little like an eagle but weirder, and they all fall down.
Whatever motion O'Sensei makes is very small.

"Spooky" is a fairly accurate description of his cry.
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts Movies
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:13:49 GMT


just saw _rapid fire_ yesterday. it looks like martial artists are
making movies that draw attention to their arts. steven seagal with
aikido, jeff speakman with ed parkers kempo, van damme with er...aah...
....aaahhh.....er....ballet... and brandon lee with jkd.

now, if we could just get a few t'ai chi folks to stand in front
of the camrea...

-mukund
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cc@cowan.fishkill.ibm.com (Chris Cowan)
Subject: Re: Styles in Bloodsport?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:16:00 GMT
Reply-To: cc@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: Pough, NY


In article <1992Sep3.231915.15833@uwm.edu>, ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
(Marty) writes:
|> The guy looked latin-afro-american, so I would assume it was
|> some hollywood version of Capoeria.  There are monkey styles
|> of Kung Fu, but I don't think they would go so far as to jump up
|> and down scratching your head like a monkey like was in the film. :)

Just a comment.  It is not that uncommon for Chinese stylists to try
to assimilate the characteristics of the animal, for which the style
is based.  When you are able to completely do this, you have
supposedly mastered the style.

In this case however, you are correct.   The guys in Bloodsport was not
a Chinese Monkey Stylist.  

Chris Cowan 

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts