HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Re: Family Relationships
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:01:22 GMT

[Unlurking briefly]

In article <9208252330.AA27270@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>bkt@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Barrie Trinkle) writes:
>
>> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>
>>> As I wrote to Barrie, I suspect his sources.  General Novello speaks
>                                 ^^^
>>    Make that "her", please, Mark.
>Oooops.
>
>I am so sorrie (intentional mis-spelling).  I would have suspected

All these explicit style changes get quite confusing. Is Barr a first 
name too? After a decade, one would think one knows everything there is to
know.

>> ..nothing is so fatal to maidenly delicacy of speech as the run of
>> a good library.
>>                               Robertson Davies, _Tempest Tost_
>
>Well -- I have to admire anyone who quotes Robertson Davies.

So, the quote makes the man (both sexes?)
                             ^^^^^^^^^^ quite unoriginal
>
>Marky

I have always enjoyed reading this group. My wayward ways have
taken me far from the first love (?) for most of you.

Sthan.

[Back to lurking]
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<13627.2aa54270@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:22:56

In article <13627.2aa54270@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> wagner@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:

   In article <JMC.92Sep1210838@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
   > Mark Taranto posts:
   > 
   >        The ONLY people I have ever heard complain about racism
   >      towards whites (other than Clayton) are white supremicists.
   > 
   > Mark hasn't been paying much attention unless he claims magical
   > means of identifying white supremacists.  Almost all of the people
   > who complained about the singer who said it was time for a week
   > of killing whites called it racist.
   > 
   > --
   > John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305

   Not to beat a dead horse, but the woman did not call for a week of
   killing whites.  She was apparently trying to explain a gangbanger's
   mentality to a talk show host.  That is, she was trying to explain what she
   thought someone else thought.  I didn't think she showed herself to be 
   particularly charming or open-minded in her fifteen minutes of fame, 
   but she was demonized for words taken out of context.

   Of course, once Clinton gave an opinion of the context-less quote,
   calls for reason by either side would have appeared as weakness...

Yes, but were all the people who complained, especially Clinton, racists?

Also what are the sides in the matter?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Life's too short. Was: 1930s Science Fiction
Keywords: LIFE IS TOO SHORT
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:59:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <1992Aug24.151850.4157@ms.uky.edu> fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis) writes:
>I've tried for almost 12 seconds to come up with a broader umbrella for
>science fiction than man's relationship to science and can't. Please 
>enlighten me. 

	Sorry, that work would require a heavier investment than I'm willing
to make.  I'm curious, however, about your fundamental refusal to accept that
with a reasonable understanding of sf can't be accomplished (in twelve seconds
of twelve years) if you haven't read much of it.

>Take a work like "Blade Runner"  -- not a book, but from comments I've 
>read, it influenced Tom Maddox's friend William Gibson to write _Neuromancer_

	No, actually.  When _Blade Runner_ was released, _Neuromancer_ was 
either complete but unpublished or near completion--I can't remember which.  
Anyway, Gibson and I were talking, and I asked him if he'd seen the film, and
he said, roughly, "I had walked out of it.  It was like someone had been taking
pictures of the inside of my head."

>I don't claim to be encyclopedic 

	In fact, you've explicitly claimed to be almost entirely ignorant;
why this disingenuous reversal?

>and I'm not persisting in this thread to simply bug Maddox....
>although from his tone that might not be a bad idea...  

	Oh, you shouldn't worry about "bugging" me.  Rather, you might want to 
worry about coming across as an obstinate ignoramus, but you don't seem to mind 
that.

>I don't think so, but if the working definition of  science 
>fiction is simply any work which uses science and technology for significant 
>props, then I will also concede the field to Maddox. 

	No, you will concede the field to your idiotic straw man.  I've advanced
no definition of sf, nor have I quarreled with the substance of yours; I've
pointed out the imbecility of your continued insistence on pronouncing verdicts
on a field you know nothing about.

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Elisabeth George's "For the sake of Elena" ?
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:45:25 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

thierry@curlie.UUCP (Thierry Lach   ) writes:
> Mathias.Koerber@sniap.mchp.sni.de (Mathias Koerber) writes:
> 
>> Some time ago, I read an announcement for EG's 5th novel,
>> "For the sake of Elena". Is it out yet? Hardcover or
>> Paperback?
>> 
>> Waiting anxiously...
> Out in hardcover through Book of the Month club.  Haven't seen it
> in the bookstores (US that is) yet.

Seemed a bit cobbled together compared to the earlier books.  Or maybe
I just wasn't in the right mood at the time. 

Kay Klier
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Cakes & Ale: The RABfest Story
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:29:39 GMT

As some of you may have realized, for the RABfest (6 o'c on Sat, Sep 12)
I shall be playing Eminence Gris to Susan Gere's Roi Soleil. One of my
duties is to provide the Liquid Refreshment, and yesterday evening I
completed that task. The centerpiece is an '84 Chateau Mouton Baronne
Philippe. Wine lovers will know Baron Philippe de Rothschild as perhaps 
the greatest Bordeau vigneron of all time. His Chateau Mouton-Rothschilds
and Lafitte-Rothschilds are without peer, but, alas, also beyond the 
reach of most RABbers. His low-end offerings are the very drinkable 
Mouton Cadets, but he now also provides "en hommage a Pauline, Baronne 
Philippe de Rothschild" the stuff we shall be sloshing down as we watch
Markie's Anticks on the video cassette which, apparently, he has provided.

For those who prefer white wine there will be some '90 Pouilly-Fuisse,
which may provide a welcome release to those who have become sated on
California Chardonnay.

For Designated Drivers and others like myself who, for one reason or
another, do not drink (foolish phrase), there is Ariel Chardonnay and
Cabernet Sauvignon, and a 6-pack of the most interesting of the non-
alcoholic beers, Guinness' Kaliber.

Coffees will be provided by The Connoisseur Coffee Company. A Celebes
Kalossi roasted that day, and a decafeinated Mocha/Java -- Swiss water
method.

Now where's that stupid silver taster i'm supposed to wear round my neck.

							Fido
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british
From: gerard@caliban.soest.hawaii.edu (Gerard Fryer)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: Scum Of the Earth and Senile Tenured
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:12:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.060138.10543@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
|> > [The Economist] competes over here with Time and Newsweek, both solid
|> > examples of drool-proof journalism.
|> 
|> In my opinion, as a regular reader of Newsweek and an occasional reader
|> of Time, this complaint is grossly exaggerated.

Someone writing on this thread observed that the Economist is aimed at
a mere sixth form reading and comprehension ability.  Well that's
better than the competition.  By their own admission Time and Newsweek
are aimed at about ninth grade (i.e., third form).  I have to buy Time
for general news mainly because Hawaii has no newspapers worthy of the
name, but it often makes me seeth: shallow writing, fuzzy ideas, TV in
print.  Fortunately both the Economist and the Guardian Weekly are in
the library.

-- 
Gerard Fryer  (g.fryer@soest.hawaii.edu)
School of Ocean & Earth Science & Technology
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Reply-To: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 18:23:03 GMT


At the risk of adding gasoline to a possibly dying fire, let me
try this two-parter, first a bit of a cheap shot then a claim
that takes back the cheap shot's ammo:

		#1 
In a previous article, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) says:

[on the one hand]
>How many nonwhite ancient Greeks were there, by the way?  Greeks are
>a people of indisputably white race.
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[and on the other hand]
 . . . . 
>I don't see much point to classifying the author by race 
>or gender.

Can such hands clap in unison.  Does the message compute?

		#2

Well, yeah, it does compute or make sense or whatever, tho the
two statements rub together nonsensically.  They make sense here
and now and for many of the last hundred years because racial
classifications and designations have been pretty important.
But one can only be "indisputably white" or anything else within
a stable cultural system that requires people to be one thing
or another.                   ~~~~~~~~

Put another way, the "white race" is a cultural invention which,
among other things, provided a way of linking together a number
of different language groups, peoples, and cultures that would
otherwise have seemed more diverse than not.  The idea of
"Western civilization" does some of the same work, on grounds
that are more obviously cultural (and in certain respects more
convincing.)  

Equally invented is any other racial designation that picks out as
significant some set of genetically variable traits (pigmentation,
eye color) and ignores others (height, hair color, etc.)   If
black and white seem now so "natural" as to be self-evident,
think about how the notion of (North American)
Indians was established as the "race" of "red" people.  The
settlers needed a category for Everybody Else, no matter the
cultural and physical and geographical differences among tribes.

Now "invented" aint the same as false or spurious; this whole 
thread about literary canons offers a small bit of confirmation
to that.  But it gets preposterous when historically local
designations get reapplied backwards in contexts where they
are meaningless.  As, for example, any claim that Augustine, Plato, 
Seneca, or some nameless early Egyptian geometer could be said
to be white or black.  One might was well argue about
whether they were Yugoslavian.  At least then no one
would presume the question could be settled by appeals
to skin color, the testimony of Greek statuary (most of
which was originally painted, my teachers told me, the
bare white marble being an effect of age), or some other
spuriously timeless, objective criteria.
-- 
      ||    Gary Lee Stonum                gxs11@po.cwru.edu    ||
      ||    English Department                  216-368-3342    ||
      ||    Case Western Reserve University                     ||
      ||    Cleveland, OH 44106-7117                            ||
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Summary: Damn! Clayton's right
Keywords: Greeks race Rooney-foolishness
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:20:24 GMT

In a recent rec.arts.books article, Michael Sean Rooney wrote:

>Sorry, Clayton, but claiming that the classical Greeks were
>"indisputably white" is indisputably stupid.  Quod erat demonstratum.

Sorry, Michael, but you're wrong. The definition of caucasian used by
anthropologists includes Turks, Arabs, Iranians, East Indians and
plenty of other people whose skin may be very, very dark.

I agree with Mark; Clayton was using the word "white" to mean "caucasian".

He was right in what he implied, too. If you are looking for minority
representation in the literary canon, the Greeks don't count. For any
number of reasons.

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sq.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: yarnot@csusac.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Subject: Re: Report to the r.a.b.ble, or How I Spent My Summer Vacation
Organization: Moi?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 17:38:43 GMT

In article <qa-nn==@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>In article <1992Aug23.024540.1421@csusac.csus.edu> yarnot@csusac.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot) writes:
>>
>>Any trip I plan is apt to be fairly choc-a-block with geology and books, not
>>necessarily in that order, and this one was too.
>>
>
>	If you enjoy popular geology books, John McPhee has three books
>	covering different areas of the U.S., that are a lot of fun.
>	I have read one of these, _Rising From the Plains_, which consists
>	of journeys around Wyoming with a prominent geologist who was
>	born and raised there, interspersed with excerpts from the diary
>	of his mother, who came to Wyoming in the late 1800s when it was 
>	still pretty wild.  Very enjoyable reading.
>
That was J. David Love, father of one of my classmates grades 1-12.  (I went
to the University school, very small.) In third grade he brought us by some
uranium and a Geiger counter (well, people didn't know as much about the harm
it could cause: I also used to x-ray my feet every time I passed a shoe store.)
I discovered this book at a Waldenbooks within a mile of my house, and was so
eager to get into it I had read two chapters sitting in my car before thinking
it would be really wise to drive home and read in comfort.  I love John McPhee.
(Oh, the claassmate in question is Carles, who is a geologist in Rock Springs.)
>>Shannon, _Unexpected Death_. I nearly have the whole Luis Mendoza set now.
>>
>
>	I just finished _Death of A Busybody_.  It was ok.
>	The only series (besides Sayers) I've liked recently is
>	Sue Grafton's.  A through H are all pretty good, with
>	a likeable detective.
>
The Mendoza books grow on one, something like a fungus.  Like Elizabeth George,
it helps to read them in order and see how the characters develop.
>
>Roger Squires
>rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu

-- 
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | A lifetime of smirking behind your hand
                              | is a lot better than a few seconds of
                              | triumph.
CSUS depends on my every word.              Kinsella, _Box Socials_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Help me!
From: reddyp@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Pardhasaradhi A. Reddy)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 19:27:20 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati


	I am posting this article for a friend of mine. Apparently, the
	following book is out of print and my friend is keen on reading
	it, even better buying it. 

	The book is :

		"RASHDALL'S MEDIEVAL UNIVERSITIES"
			THE UNIVERSITIES OF EUROPE IN THE MIDDLE AGES

				- by HASTINGS RASHDALL ed. POWICKE & EMDEN.

				3 VOLUMES 
				OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS 1951

				FIRST EDITION - 1895.

	I would be obliged if somebody familiar and possessing and wishing
	to sell this book send a mail to the following email address :

	reddyp@ucunix.san.uc.edu

	preddy@ant.occ.uc.edu.

	thank you.
	Pardha.
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Titles for Tom Maddox Biography Needed
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:19:06 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Aug27.224651.13362@cactus.org> kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull) writes:


>However, having just read Tom M.'s book and having been particularly
>drawn to the surrealistic images of his virtual world, I think
>his bio should be named
>
>Halo, Dali.
>
>Don't all make ugly faces at me at once.

I believe Kate should be awarded Lucky Jim's "Sex Life in Ancient Rome" 
face for this pun. 


--Barbara 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: greg.smith@stanford.edu (Greg Smith)
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian vs Horatio Hornblower...
Organization: Stanford University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:01:27 GMT

In article <10427@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>, nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall) writes:

> Being a devoted Hornblower fan, (as a boy, I used to read the
> stories when they were serialized in the Saturday Evening Post,
> and could hardly stand waiting each week to find out what would
> happen next :-) ), I immediately rushed down to the local Public
> Library and found three books on the shelf by O'Brien.  Pictures
> of sailing ships and such on the cover.  Oh, boy! Couldn't wait!
> 
> Well.....I was sadly disappointed :-( to say the least.  Obviously
> likes and dislikes with reference to books are highly subjective,
> but I thought that the O'Brien books were not even in the same
> ballback as the Hornblower series with regard to fast-moving action,
> vivid descriptions of life at sea, etc., etc.

Well, I started out with the O'Brian books, and when I ran out of them I 
tried Hornblower books but couldn't get the hang of them.  They seemed so thin
by comparison.  So, you see, it works both ways.

Greg
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: A Biog of Captain James Cook
Keywords: Cook, James
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:17:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.195258.14862@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> gersh@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (John R. Gersh) writes:
 In article <1992Aug31.161625.23901@gvl.unisys.com> Ralph Marrone writes:
 >I'm currently reading Richard Hughes' _The Fatal Shore_, and the 
 >sections about James Cook are quite interesting.  Can anyone recommend
 >a good biography of him?
 >
 
 
>A good scholarly biography is J. C. Beaglehole, The Life of Captain
>James Cook, Stanford U. P., 1974. I've not read it, but remember a few
>approving references.
 
Beaglehole has also edited the logs of the _Endeavour_.  Good reading.  
_The Voyages of Captain James Cook in the Pacific_.  Available in paper,
don't remember the publisher.

 			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Sea Stories (was: Patrick O'Brian vs Horatio Hornblower...)
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:21:23 GMT

I recommend _Sailing Alone Around the World_, by Joshua Slocum.  The first
man to do it, a legend among Yotties.  Slocum was a technologically unemployed
clipper captain.  Built the _Spray_, a small sloop, out of a pasture oak, 
and took about 2 1/2 years to get back to Boston.  He is a delightful and
unaffected writer, and had adventures far more dramatic than fiction has
dreamed of.  My copy is paperback (Penguin?) and is paired with his
_Voyage of the Liberdade_, an account of losing his ship to mutiny in South
America and sailing a hand-built "canoe" back to Boston.

Dana's _Two Years Before the Mast_ was my favorite sea book as a child; even
Blind Pew couldn't compete.

			Chuck Smythe
From: djl@dplace.UUCP (Dave Lampe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Sea stories
Date: 2 Sep 92 05:14:40 GMT
Organization: Dave's Used Software Works, Livermore, CA


A couple of books I havn't seen mentioned here:
Ellis Meacham - The East Indiaman
	      - On the Company's Service

	      Both stories of the wooden ship navy, but the is the Honorable
	      East India Company navy in the Inian Ocean.

James Dillon White - Kelso of the Paragon
		   - A Spread of Sail

		   The British sailing navy, much like Hornblower or Ramage.
		   There are more to this series since _A Spread of Sail_
		   is marked as #5 in the series.

Victor Suthren - The Black Cockade
	       - A King's Ransom
	       - In Perilous Seas
	       The French - British naval wars of the 18th century from the
	       French side.

	       - Royal Yankee
	       - The Golden Galleon
	       An American colonist in the British navy

Kenneth Maynard - First Lieutenant
		- Lamb in Command
		Another competent clone of Hornblower/Ramage/Bolitho

Dan Parkinson - The Fox and the Faith
	      - The Fox and the Fury
	      - The Fox and the Flag
	      The British navy vs. American privateers in the revolution

Kenneth Roberts - The Lively Lady
                - Captain Caution
		An American privateer in the war of 1812.

Dewey Lambden - The King's Coat
	      - The French Admiral
	      Closer to Aubrey-Maturin, more atmosphere, less fighting.
-- 
Dave Lampe
{ames | lll-tis | sun | pyramid}!pacbell!dplace!djl
(415) 455-1571 (H)
(415) 462-7000 (W)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: myboy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Lewis Murtaugh)
Subject: Re: couple Ross Macdonald queries
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:35:51 GMT

In article <h=mnv2l@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>I've started _The Underground Man_.  It is taking place in Santa Teresa,
>which I seem to recall is the same town Sue Grafton's character lives in.
>Is this correct, and is this a real town in CA?
>
>I've only read one other RM story, _Sleeping Beauty_, and both books
>use natural disasters to anchor the plot.  Is this RM SOP?
>He's written many other books, I notice.  Can others recommend maybe
>two of the best (not necessarily Lew Archer) for me to catch next?

God, just what I need -- an excuse to plug ross MacDonald, THE BEST DAMN
MYSTERY WRITER IN HISTORY!

Sorry about the hyperbole.  He doesn't use natural disasters in all his
novels -- in fact I think those are the only ones in which he *does*.  Those
are also his best novels, IMHO.  Other greats include: _The Barbarous Coast_,
_The Galton Case_, _The Way Some People Die_, _The Blue Hammer_ (all Lew
Archers), and _Blue City_ (I think that's the title -- anyway its not Lew 
Archer, it's about this kid who comes home after serving in the Army and finds
his father's been murdered).

--
Charles Murtaugh
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:43:23 GMT


   I first decided to subscribe to the Economist when I opened a copy at
random and noticed a story on the U.S. budget deficit headlined, "Make
me fiscally responsible, Lord, but not yet."  I decided that any journal
which headlined an article on the federal deficit with an allusion to  
Saint Augustine -- and assumed that its readers would get it! -- simply
could not be passed up.

   Another favorite Economist headline of mine was the one they used for
an article on Canandian natural resource management policy:  "I'm a
Lumberjack and I'm OK."

   As for Time, I haven't read it for years, but my memory is that its
writing "style" was almost entirely a matter of two particular prose
gimmicks.  One was the rhyming name:  "Vice President Dan Quayle (rhymes
with fail.)"  The other was the habit of prefacing a proper name with a
pair of descriptive adjectives:  "Folksy, affable Ronald Reagan," or
"Square-jawed, brutal Saddam Hussein."  I term the latter trope the
schema joyceanum, for reasons which will immediately be obvious to any
educated reader.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books