HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:11 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <C1HHKB.47M@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#No frothing, no flaming, just different opinions.

I just bought 'em all - 226, 220, 17 and 21.  That way I don't *have*
to offer opinions.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Clips are not magazines
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:35 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1993Jan27.033809.11574@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#In article <1993Jan26.102654.4647@megatek.com> cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus) writes:
###From article <ATAYLOR.93Jan25172736@gauss.nmsu.edu>, by ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy):
### 
### 	Clips are pieces of metal which do not enclose  or completely
### 	surround cartridges. 
##
##	A rule of thumb: "If it has a spring, it's a magazine."
#
#Further, if it *is* a spring, it's a clip.

  Don't the U.S. military stripper clips for both 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO have
springs in them?

--henry schaffer

[MODERATOR:  Yup! :-) ]
From: chess1@bnr.ca (Pete (A.B.) Abovyan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Franchi Law12
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:40:56 GMT

Has anyone had any experience with the Franchi Law12. 

Thank you,
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:20 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

OK, applying the KISS principle, and input from the fine readership and 
Moderator, I've come up with this list. It's short, but it is, I think,
long enough to be useful.

	(PISTOL)	(RIFLE)		(SHOTGUN)	(RELOAD)
	(FULLAUTO)	(COMPETE)	(DEFENSE)	(AMMO)
	(FFL-NFA)	(LAWS)		(REVIEW)	(ADMIN)

Someone suggested that we use single-letter keywords; however, I think
that could tend to be confusing (is "R" rifle or reload?). So, I'm 
putting forth these short monikers instead. AMMO seems like it
could be covered under one of the other categories, but I'm thinking
that it could encompass the discussions of Black Talon vs. CorBon,
but that begs the question: where do you put 9mm vs. .45? I'd say
under (PISTOL)...but... That's something to think about.
(ADMIN) is a Keyword for the Moderator; (REVIEW) is for the book/gun/etc
reviews which occasionally show up here; (LAWS) is for requests for laws,
citations, etc. (as allowed by the charter and Moderator). The others
should be fairly obvious. Like I said, I tried to be broad enough to 
keep it simple, but narrow enough to be useful...

This is completely voluntary. If you don't want to use the keywords,
you don't have to (although I have noticed that some people are using 
them already :-). Although we are armed, we aren't holding a gun to
your head. ;-)

OK, guys and gals, let's have some feedback. If there aren't any major
objections to the categories, we'll move on to defining the subjects
which fall under the various categories...

					James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Vince Tessier)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SPAS-12 trivia question
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:00:49 GMT

The original question was:

  What's the hook on the SPAS-12 stock for?  It's usually thought of
  as a device to allow using this enormously heavy shotgun one-handed,
  but that's not its principal purpose.

I read two correct answers in my last news session, one from
fsjbr@acad3.alaska.edu (I couldn't find a name):

# Is it for hanging over the back seat of your car ?

And the other (I really like this one) from maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi 
(Mikko Kurki-Suonio):

# And I quote: "With the stock closed the SPAS can be hung over the seat
# of a vehicle by rotating the hook attachement."

#> The authority for my answer, which I'll post in a week or so if no one
#> gets it, is a conversation my usually-reliable source had with Luigi
#> Franchi at the '88 AUSA show.

# Well, my source is Kevin Dockery's "Compendium of Modern Firearms", a
# book on firearms for role-playing games.

Well, my usually-reliable source is Kevin Dockery.  I fiddle with his 
computers, and he fiddles with my pistols.  If you see an ad for Trijicon
night sights showing a Hi-Power with a snazzy compensator, that's the
Browning Kevin built for me with a 6" 41AE barrel.  BTW, the _Compendium_
mentioned above was written as a gaming manual, but several military &
other government agencies have bought it.  Kevin has also written
_SEALs In Action_ about the Navy SEALs, and a biography of Jim Watson,
one of the original 22 SEALs, will be published this fall.

-- 
	-- Vince Tessier (vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu)
"We demand forty million helicopters and a dollar."  -- General Chow
from _Dinosaurs_ (Old food never dies ... it just goes Bad.)
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:41 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <C1736A.44u@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#In article <9301210053.AA12733@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
##Good points.
#
#Agreed.
#
##I've been thinking, can we start calling 'assault rifles' something
##better, such as 'service rifles'.  That is what they are, after all.
##Yes, its fun to type 'Evil Assault Rifle {tm}', (I do it), but we
##may not be helping our cause.
#
#I prefer EvilBabyKillingForeignAssaultRiflesFromHell(tm) myself. ;-)
#
#On a serious note, while we're examining rec.guns and its spirit (and,
#of course, thanking the Moderator for the fine job he is doing), I'd
#like to propose a little bit of organization. (What?! The hell, you say!
#Organization?! Crucify him! Heretic!)
#We currently have two major areas of interest here: reloading, and 
#everything else. Yeah, there are other threads (like SIG vs. Glock)
#which pop up every now and then, but the reloading questions seem
#to maintain a steady undercurrent. Of course, this may just be my
#perception, but I do think it's true.

---------------deleted--------------------
#
#Any comments/ideas? Is it worth the effort? Whaddya tink, youse guys?
#
#(This should definitely not be taken as a slight towards the Moderator;
#it's simply a time-saver for all concerned. Jim, I hope that everybody
#out there realizes just how good you actually are, and that everybody
#appreciates your work as much as I do.)
#
#(And later I edits:)
#To get this project off the ground, with Jim's blessing, I have volunteered
#to collect and collate potential keywords. If you have any suggestions
#for keywords, send them to me at
#		callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
#and I'll add them to the "potentials" list.
#The initial list follows:
#RELOAD		REVIEW		HOME DEFENSE 		CCW/CWP
#QUESTION 	PISTOLS		REVOLVERS		NFA/FULL-AUTO
#RIFLE		SHOTGUN		MILITARY WEAPONS	AMMUNITION/AMMO
#ARMOR		DEFENSE GUNS	DEFENSE AMMO		COMPETITION-RIFLE
#BOWS/CROSSBOWS	GUNSMITHING	LEGISLATION		COMPETITION-PISTOL
#TACTICS		FFL		SUPPLIES/SUPPLIERS	RUGER-BASHING
#
#OK, so, maybe RUGER-BASHING is a wee bit outside the charter. :-)
#
#We'll also need to come up with some sort of categorization scheme for
#this, and I'll coordinate this as well. If you'd like to help set this
#thing up, send me a message, and I'll add you to the mailing list...
#
Aw, James, do we hafta?  These distinctions look pretty artificial to me.
Besides, you've left out the category (and a major one at that) that 
seems most to interfere with the exchange of real information,
COOL-LOOKING.

I really think that forcing the truly fine information in this group
into a one dimensional format is a mistake.  From memory, I would
guess that some large fraction of the postings involve some large
number of the categories listed above, making much of our
posting difficult to categorize.

Of course, if we must, we must.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Where to get .30 Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev ammo?
Date: 23 Jan 93 01:55:39 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores of the Pacific, California

Well, I've called the local gun shops and gotten NUL.

Soo...  Where should I look for mail order 7.62 Tokarev or
for .30 Mauser that might work in my (soon to be done with
the 15 day wait) Tokarev ?  

While I ordered the 9mm bbl too (and now I'm Really Glad I did!) I
would also like to get some of the original cartridge to try ...

Of course, if anyone knows of a shop local to me that carries the
ammo, I'd like to know that, too...

Mike

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: mf3s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Martin David Frankel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:49 GMT

About this idea of putting subject keywords at the beginning of each
subject line:

I think one problem that has to be faced is that it is easier to propose
a neat idea than to actually make it happen.  What if people don't use
these keywords, or use the wrong one?  Will the moderator have to fix /
add the correct keyword?  Sounds like more work, not less.  What about
newcomers?
	[MODERATOR: I don't think the moderator is likely to fix those
	 things.... ]

Bottom line: in my opinion, there should not be more than four or five
standard, accepted keywords, specifying broad categories.  Otherwise the
complexity level will be too high to ensure general acceptance, and the
initial goal (categorizing posts) will be lost.

Maybe:

[PISTOL]  (approx 35% of posts)
[RIFLE]   (approx 20% of posts)
[RELOAD]  (approx 15% of posts)
[OTHER]   (approx 30% of posts)
	[MODERATOR: Actually, "other" is easily denoted by the absence of
	 the keyword.... ]

This is just an initial approximation, completely off the top of my
head, but I think it would categorize most posts well.

Another consideration is that many newsreaders show only about 30 to 40
characters of the subject line, and hence it would be a good idea to
make short (less than 10 character) keywords.  Again, this precludes a
large variety of keywords, unless a great deal of abbreviation were
done, which would create difficulties for newcomers and novices.

Just my two cents...

       -- Martin

[MODERATOR:  Conventions like these appear elsewhere in the net, e.g.
there are conventions for posting multiple uuencoded image files over
in the sources directories, with subject line set up so that a decoder
can reconstruct the original file automatically.   What is your opinion
of the effectiveness over there? Is it just not worth the bother for us
to fool with it here?]
From: hacker@coos.dartmouth.edu (Fred L. Hacker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Handgun Stopping Power?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:25 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

I recently read an article by Robert Shimek in which he claimed
that 9mm harball has about the same stopping power as .45 hardball
(approx. 60% one shot stop) and that the best 9mm +p JHP had about
the same stopping power as the best .45 ACP JHP (high 80's one shot
stop).  I found this very suprising.  The one shot stop figures for 
.45 seem much lower than those given by Ayoob in 'In The Gravest
Extreme' and in his book on semi auto pistols in police service.
Shimek's source seemed to be the Marshall-Sanow book 'Handgun Stopping
Power'.  Could someone who has the book please e-mail me or post the
listed stopping powers for the various .45 ACP and 9mm loads reviewed.

Thanks,
Fred
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:

#In article <JANECZKO.93Jan20222918@csd630a.erim.org> janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
##I recently bought a S&W model 686 (i.e. Stainless steel 6" .357) for both 
##protection and hunting.  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
##around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads.  His 
##reason was that if by chance you end up killing a perp. with a handloaded
##cartridge, the prosecuting lawyer might portray you using excessive force.
##His reasoning might be that necessary force could have been carried out 
##with factory load (i.e. non-maximum loads).  This also got me thinking about 
##the caliber of the gun also being considered as excessive force?  Has there 
##been any cases involving this?

#I seriously doubt this; if I remember, I'll check Westlaw and Lexis tomorrow
#for possible cites.
#Factory loads are, in point of fact, often more powerful than handloads.
#Cor-bons are specifically designed to provide high velocities and energies;
#the PMC factory 240gr. TCSP .44Magnum is by far the hottest pistol load
#I've ever shot (it leaves the muzzle at 1300fps, 900ft-lbs of energy). (You
#T/C Contender owners shut up. :-) Quite frequently, people actually load
#ammo _down_ from maximum loads--it provides better accuracy and makes the
#gun much more controllable. That's why target loads kick much less than
#full-house loads; they're specifically downloaded.  I can't see the caliber 

I can see it now..."In short, ladies and gentlement of the jury, the
defendant was nothing more than a brooding, antisocial paranoid who
spent his time in his basement perfecting the ultimate man-killer
ammunition.  If we are to believe that he is just a well-adjusted citizen
who happened to own a gun for self-defense, why couldn't he just go down
to one of the multitude of gun stores that blight our landscape and buy
some ammunition produced by professionals and in compliance with all of
our government's controls and restrictions?"

David "Not really paranoid, but careful nonetheless" Basiji
UW Bioengineering
NeRD #3762
I speak for myself (never my wife).
From: vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Vince Tessier)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SPAS-12 trivia question
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:45 GMT

There seems to be fairly consistent opinion that the Franchi SPAS-12
is one of the ugliest/scariest guns around ... this brought to mind 
a recent discussion with my usually-reliable source (for whom I'm
attempting to arrange inexpensive Internet access).

What's the hook on the SPAS-12 stock for?  It's usually thought of
as a device to allow using this enormously heavy shotgun one-handed,
but that's not its principal purpose.

The authority for my answer, which I'll post in a week or so if no one
gets it, is a conversation my usually-reliable source had with Luigi
Franchi at the '88 AUSA show.
-- 
Vince Tessier	vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu

"Capital punishment reduces the rate of recidivism to an acceptable level"
From: wagner@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Home Invasion Prevention Tactics Wanted
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:37 GMT



In article <749P03zxc9=B00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham) writ> 
# leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes
# #In article <jrh.2b5aecbf-e@mustang.dell.com> jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard) writes:
# #:rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
# #:
# #:#In article <C0vpqE.Hs5@scylax.uucp> scylax!tiglth@uunet.UU.NET writes:
# #:##Several armed intruders against a family is bad news for the family even
# #:# 
# #:#                                        rob b.
# #:
# #:I hope that the "media" doesn't find out, or they will
# #:start *advertising* it on every news show in order to guarantee that the 
# #:crooks know all about it.[B
# #:-- 
# #:Randy Howard          	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
# 
# #It is already too late, a local TV news broadcast here (Los Angeles)
# #did a feature story last night on home invasions mimicing SWAT Team
# #entries.  This virtually guarantees there will be more.
# 
# We have this problem in San Jose as well.  Last year there were over 120 home
# invasions in the city of San Jose alone.  The Santa Clara County total was
# approaching 500!  Claiming to be "police" as they go in seems to be a
# favorite, and common, tactic.
# 
# It's nearly to the point that I'm going to have to remember where I stored
# those damn Claymores :-)
 
Same thing here in lotus land.
Vancouver, BC Canada, a week or so ago an asian gang (they are haveing a lot
of this type of gang problems) pulled the same stunt.  In this country though
it's a heck of a lot harder to protect yourself and your property (legally
that is is).
-- 
73, Tom
================================================================================
Tom Wagner, Audio Visual Technician.  Malaspina College Nanaimo British Columbia
(604) 753-3245, Local 2226  Fax (604) 755-8742  Callsign VE7GDA

I do not recyle.....   I keep everything!       (All standard disclaimers apply)
================================================================================
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Kitten's Firearms handling (was:Seagal)
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:24:50 GMT
Organization: who knows

callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes...
#Someone mentioned an ad for "Sniper", the new movie coming out next 
#month. From what I've seen of the ads, it's not about Hathcock; it
#looks like it takes place in South America, not in Vietnam.
# 
#Also...has anyone seen "Nowhere to Run", Van Damme's new movie? The
#gun handling didn't look too bad, and there's a neat camera shot where
#the camera "follows" the bullet from a rifle through the rear window
#of a Trans-Am...

Supposedly, "Sniper", also, has shots of the camera following bullets.

	[MODERATOR: Well, it was done following arrows in "Robin Hood,
	 Prince of Thieves", so I suppose it was only a matter of time...]
From: heinold@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Clint Heinold)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: scope mounts for shotguns
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:36:26 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


I am about to purchase my first shotgun, probably a Remington 870,
and I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with mounting
a low power scope on such a gun without buying a seperate barrel?
I want a scope for increased accuracy during the fall whitetail
season, (not necessarily to take longer shots).  However, because
I also enjoy shooting clays and would like to start phesant hunting,
I don't want to buy a gun with rifle sights or with the scope mount
already attached.  I have seen a number of different ways of mounting
a scope to a shotgun, but they all seem to involve drilling into the
reciever or using some sort of a tension device which doesn't seem
too accurate to me.  Has anyone mounted a scope to the vented rib
of the barrel?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Am I asking
too much, or is this even possible?  Thanks for your time.

Clint Heinold
heinold@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:05:01 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1jp7h5INNejd@shelley.u.washington.edu>
basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
##The best all time movie as far as correct firearms handling is
##"Tremors". If you haven't seen it, check it out; especially the rec
##room scene.
#
#Agreed; good movie, too. The only problem I saw was that when he shot
#those _huge_ "elephant" loads, there was virtually no kick from the rifle.

Are you sure?  I think I remember him firing and being REALLY pushed back,
as if Andre the Giant had punched him in the shoulder.

Of course, maybe I should watch the copy that Gillian gave me for christmas
again, to make sure I know what I'm talking about... :)

GREAT movie.  What kind of gun/ammunition was he using anyway?

    don "guess we can't make fun of their lifestyle anymore" baldwin
From: jfrench@cs.tamu.edu (Jeff French)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silenced rifles in WW
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:34 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University

"The British Service Lee" by Ian Skennerton has a couple of pages on the
De Lisle gun. It shows two models, the folding stocked Airborne (sic) Commando 
Carbine and the Skeletonized Commando Carbine.

The passage states that only 106 of the units were produced, these being made
by Sterling. 

This is a great book for SMLE fans, though I think it is long out of print.
I bought mine many years ago, second hand, for $45.00. Hard cover, ~400 pages,
purely technical. Lot's of good photos and patent drawings.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    SCO Xenix 80386 2.3 ==> An elegant, 32-bit OS from Northern California     
    jfrench@cs.tamu.edu ==> A homely, 2-bit SOB from East Texas           
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT Longslide (good gun??)
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:58 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

Mike Wuest:

The AMT is definetly NOT a good pistol for IPSC use. The 1911 design
is good, but the pistol isn't. AMT has had a long history of churning
out not-so-good-stuff. They have suffered quality control problems
throughout. The ones that I have seen have keyholed right out of the
box, one stovepiped every shot, one even had to have the slide
manually jacked after every round. And the fourth one I've ever seen
in action was at my local silhouette range. This poor guy had
obviously invested some money because he had a compensator,
beavertailed safety grip, elongated slide release and magazine catch.
He stepped up to the line and and couldn't concentrate for all the
snickering going on behind him. Around the tenth or eleventh shot the
front sight came zipping off. No problem, just took a few minutes to
get it back on. Around round 30 or so his guide rod broke and he was
finished for the day.
He was back in few days and at it again. Well, to make a long story
short, his AMT literally shot itself apart on the firing line.
No, no hot ammo was used. I've only seen four AMTs in action, but
they spoke for themselves. In Alabama nobody locally stocks them
because they don't even sell.
Your best bet for a part-time IPSC piece might be a used series 70
Colt or Springfield. Both are excellent guns, and they follow the
1911 design.

David A. Horton
University of Alabama