From: s1137020@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Mariusz Prokopczyk)
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Camps)
Organization: Monash University College Gippsland, Churchill, 3842, Australia
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:31:13 GMT

In article <a6bc453c@random.se> ianf@random.se (Ian Feldman) writes:
>
> A common Polish-German action?
>-------------------------------
>  In soc.culture.polish <swietor@infopol.com> (Maria Swietorzecki)
>  writes on Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:36:12 GMT in regard to common media
>  practice of referring to Nazi Camps in Poland as "Polish [Death]
>  Camps" and the Canadian Polish Congress' attempts to set the
>  record straight:
>
>> Please support the Canadian Polish Congress efforts in the
>> preservation of historicals facts.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Maria,
>  I am not sure that any _preservation_ of the historical facts will
>  do any good in the long run.  What's at issue here is, after all,
>  not associating the blame for the Nazi camps in Poland with the
>  word "German" BUT educating the public that they were "Nazi camps"
>  rather than "German" or "Polish" ones.

I am sure the preservation of historical facts would at least prevent
the misleading statements which associate Poland and Poles as having
any sort of active involvement in German-Nazi camps. It certainly
may not distance such camps with the word "German", but I also do not
see why Poles should stand in this case for the good name of Germans.

>  You are, of course, entirely right (as is the Canadian Polish
>  Congress) in pointing out the semantic dangers of inexact and thus
>  automatically misleading references to (responsibility for) such
>  camps in wartime Poland.  Every time they're called "Polish camps"
>  in the media, or even named as having been in Poland out of their
>  proper administrative context, it feels like yet another small
>  victory for the by now long-gone Nazi Reich regime. Clearly, this
>  is NOT a laughing matter.
>
>  However, pointing that out POST FACTUM to editors of the media
>  at fault is hardly the right approach.  For one, the damage has
>  already been done and cannot easily be undone.  Not many people
>  read, or even notice, a reluctantly-placed retraction on p. 24,
>  tucked right next to a 'NoRoach Formula' ad.

I also agree that the above action for which the Canadian Polish Congress
is calling may be of limited value in the long term, it is still better
than nothing at the moment. It also does not preclude any future more
succesfull actions in cooperation with German and/or Jewish communities if
the communication would start and the adequate strategies are eventually
co-devised.

>  For another the very method employed --protest letters to editors,
>  newspaper proprietors etc-- after the event is a very PASSIVE one
>  and thus hardly earning the respect of the very people it seeks to
>  educate in those matters.  What the Polish Canadian Congress (and
>  other similarly-minded bodies) perhaps ought to do is to change
>  the tactics and work more towards PREVENTION of such unfortunate
>  references occurring rather than REDRESSING the damage each time it
>  has happened.
>
>  Prevention is best achieved by raising the question TIME AND TIME
>  AGAIN in the schools of journalism, by advance direct mail to the
>  individuals in the media, by occassional (media) events together
>  with other organizations and by other methods.  It's a lot of work
>  but, knowing that the alternative is in effect letting the dark
>  spirits escape with lots of small victories --those extermination
>  camps weren't put in Poland for nothing--, somebody has to do it.

I suggest you should advise the body which you would like to represent
or be represented by.

> A different approach
>---------------------
>  One thing that has been nagging me for some time, is the post-
>  reunification German attitude in those matters, if one can
>  generalize so broadly (probably not, as it cannot be done about
>  any other "national" attitude).  Now that at long last the Germans
>  do not have to be nice to anybody in order to regain their state
>  there are clearly-observable rises in German ethnic arrogance and
>  nationalism.
>
>  Still, the undiluted logic tells me that the German people have as
>  much at stake in dissolving the bond between the words 'German'
>  and 'Nazi", in disowning the Nazi regime and its institutions in
>  wartime Poland, as do the Poles in preventing being associated
>  with those camps themselves.

For me being in Australia it is quite difficult to state whether
the German people want to distance themselves from the past Nazi regime
or not. Let me presume here that they do. At least they have every right
to do so. In any circumstances, blaming any guilt for the past Nazi regime
activities on today's Germans (other than some post Nazi remnants),
would be as absurd as blaming the current roman-catholic church for
the medieval inquisition.

>  Yet the undisputed fact that the Nazis were Germans, too, means
>  that German national bodies at home and abroad probably feel
>  emotionally prevented from raising their voice when the camps are
>  merely being called "German" rather than "German Nazi" ones.
>  Perhaps there are individuals and/ or organizations that do ask
>  the media to observe that distinction but I very much doubt it. In
>  any event I've yet to run accross any such item, German-ancestry
>  individuals making sure that _German_ DOES NOT IN ITSELF EQUAL
>  _Nazi_.

Even if your argument that the Germans may "feel emotionally prevented
from raising their voice when the camps are merely being called "German"
rather than "German Nazi" ones" is correct, it should be easily abandoned
when a special representative German body would take care of this problem.
I know of other German organizations which do not display such shy attitude
towards demonstrating their feelings or views, and do not understand
why this quite justified case should be different.

>  Being far, far removed from NA politic scene (and, gee, am I glad
>  for that!) my experiences and insights in those matters might not
>  account for much.  Still, taken as purely-intellectual excercise,
>  I wonder if any Polish- OR German-national bodies in diaspora EVER
>  made an attempt to address those issues together, by ACTING
>  TOGETHER in/ towards the very press that so often is at fault.
>  When calling the camps "Polish" the editors are merely trying to
>  be accurate in geographical terms, isn't that right and, besides,
>  they're not _accusing_ the Poles of having been in charge, are
>  they? [rhetorical questions both].

I honestly doubt whether the above are rhetorical questions. If someone
publish that there was an orgy in a family X's house without mentioning
that family X were terrorized by a bandits which made this orgy, he
could be easily sued for defamation. The problem might not be so easy
when it comes to offend a whole nation, but circumstances and emotional
similarities are clear.

Prevention of blaming current society for some of its historical actions
should not be mixed with an attempt to falsify a history.

>  I am sure that, implausible though it may sound, a common German-
>  Polish action or, better still, a German-Polish-Jewish one, would
>  carry far greater impact in the minds of people than ever so glib
>  and righteous appeals to hard-pressed media editors to observe
>  what to them seems "a minor point."  Would any such common action
>  be impossible to think of, because of still-open wartime wounds
>  of the Poles?

I also think that cooperative action may bring greater success. When
talking about "still-open wartime wounds of Poles" I can only speak
for myself, but the fact that I do not know even a single Pole who
would be opposed in general to such cooperation with Germans, may
suggest you the answer.

>  Hmmm...  perhaps the Poles, that like to think of themselves as
>  more "churchy" and adhering to Christian values more than others,
>  ought to study and then live up to the intentions of the 1966
>  Polish Episcopate's letter to the German clergy, in which the
>  Polish bishops forgave the German people for past injustices and
>  asked to be forgiven for any of Polish own in return.
>
>  Of course, the popular Polish sentiment in regard to the latter is
>  that because the Poles were victims and then made to suffer Vile
>  Foreign Communism for 45 more years then this suffering automatical-
>  ly ABSOLVES and CLEANS them as a whole from any past wrongdoings
>  against Germans or any other nationalities among its minorities.

I think you unnecessarily are trying to open that wound.
It is a christian custom that you should ask for forgiveness and
forgive at the same time. This custom is not a rule which everyone
must obey, so using it as an argument in such discussions may
appear to some Poles as unpolite or even rude. I suggest that you
do not know really what Poles think so leave that problem to themselves.

>  Perhaps the Canadian Polish Congress ought to ask itself aloud
>  just what IS the goal of its post-factum semantics-righting
>  activities.  As long as they're mainly interested in substituting
>  one national label that's associated with those camps with another,
>  this effort is, to the best of my ability, misplaced and hardly
>  JUST towards the German people as such.  Remember, the Germans
>  have wronged but they are not the same people now as of half a
>  century ago.
>
>--Ian Feldman / ianf@random.se /(ianf@dada.uucp)/ "It doesn't matter who
>             / wins the election. The government will still be in power"

I think the Canadian Polish Congress quite clearly explained its position.
It also did not distance itself from any possibly future cooperations
if such offer would be submitted to its body.
Poles simply stand up for their rights to protect their good name
and I do not see any reason why such action could be called as
"misplaced" or "hardly JUST" to nowadays Germans.

Would you call the mentioned publication in "Toronto Star" as JUST?
Or is it that you have some other not clearly stated goals?

Mariusz Prokopczyk

    *** "No matter how hard you try, someone else will do it better." ***

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish