From: hra2@Lehigh.EDU (Hibatur Rahman Ahmad)
Subject: RE: FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK (Part 6)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Originator: Mughal@Romeo.Caltech.Edu (Asim Mughal -Moderator)
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:52:00 GMT


[Postmarked: 16 Aug '92]

========================= Original Message =========================
From: Brian Evans <evans@gauss.eedsp.gatech.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:31:38 GMT
To: hra2@Lehigh.EDU
Subject: Re: FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK (Part 6)
Cc: sakarya@gauss.eedsp.gatech.edu
Source-Info:  From (or Sender) name not authenticated.

Dear Hibatur Ahmad,

        Good day.  I do not read this news group, but a Muslim friend
          of mine forwarded your posting.  I have had several discussions
          on this very topic with a variety of Muslims.  I myself am
          Roman Catholic.  I am very proud that the current Pope is trying
          so hard to maintain dialogue with various religious groups.
          I think that the inter-faith prayer service held awhile ago
          is an excellent example (Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and
          non-theistic religions were represented).  You are free to
          post this response.


> When God said: Jesus son of Mary, have you told people:
> "Take me and my mother as two gods along with God?"
> He said: "Glory to You!.....
> I have told them nothing except what you commanded me:
> "Worship God as my Lord and your Lord".....
>                                                   (Maidah 5: 116-117)

As you probably know, the concept of Trinity was debated over the early
centuries but was resolved by Global Councils of the Catholic Church
before Mohammed was conceived.  The Catholic Church has never considered
the Trinity to include Mary, although some aberrant groups in Babylonia
did hold to the incorrect belief that the Trinity included Mary.


> Lo! the likeness of Jesus with God
> Is as the likeness of Adam.
> He created him of dust, then He said to him:
> Be! and he is.
>                                                     (Ali-Imran 3: 59)
>
> And they say: God hath taken unto Himself a son.
> Be He glorified!  No!  But whatever is in the
> heavens and the earth is His.  All are subservient
> to Him.  The Originator of the heavens and the
> earth!  When He decrees a thing, He says to it
> only:  Be! and it is.
>                                                     (Baqarah 2: 116-117)

It is common to confuse Jesus' eternal existence with the time he
took human form.  God did not "sire" (have intercourse with) a female
to conceive Jesus.  (I believe the confusion came about because of
mistranslations of the Virgin birth into Arabic.)  As Roman Catholics,
we believe that Mary was a virgin before and during the birth of Jesus
(as Muslims do)--- no intercourse was involved.  (The Triune) God said
"Be!" and Jesus took flesh.


> They surely disbelieve who say:
> Lo! God is the third of three;
> When there is no God save the One God.
> If they desist not from so saying
> a painful doom will fell on those of them who disbelieve.
>
> Will they not rather turn unto God
> and seek forgiveness of Him?
> For God is Forgiving, Merciful.
>
> The Messiah, son of Mary was no other than a Messenger,
> Messengers the like of whom had passed away before him
> and his mother was a saintly woman.
> They both used to eat earthly food.
> See how we make the revelations clear for them.
> See how they are turned away!
>                                                     (Maidah 5: 73-75)

Yes, indeed Mary was saintly and so were Jesus' apostles.  And we hold
that these Saints form a Group/Body/Communion in Heaven (Hebrews 11 and 12,
Revelation 4 and 6:9-11, etc.) that worships God and intercedes on behalf
of His people.  Any Christian who claims three Gods is sadly mistakened.
Instead, the belief is in one divine nature shared by three persons.
Unlike human nature which we humans share, the divine nature is eternal,
infinite, and unique.  The first step in becoming a believer (as laid out
in Micah 6:1-8, Romans 1, and Acts 10) is to believe in a Creator God and
to act morally because of the belief.  Yes, this path us "to turn unto God
and seek forgiveness of Him?".


>     Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h.) was as human as any man.  He ate, slept, fought
> the Romans, worshipped God, wept and cried to God for assistance and
> salvation!  If we read the Bible with an open heart, we can find in not less
> then 60 verses, statements as clear as daylight, that God is one and that
> Jesus is a human being and a prophet.  He was never worshipped as God by his
> Disciples.  The mission of Prophet Jesus was the same as all the 124,000
> prophets sent to mankind.  Jesus said of his and our God:
>
> "And Jesus answered him.  The FIRST of all
> commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR
> God is ONE Lord."
>                                                     (Mark 12: 29)
>
>    Sincerely ponder over the aboved verse and Isaiah 43: 10 and ask yourself
> whether there is any place for the believe in Trinity.  God says:
>
> "Beside me there is NO OTHER God; there
> NEVER WAS and NEVER WILL BE."
>                                                    (Isaiah 43: 10)

When did Jesus fight the Romans?  And where did "124,000 prophets" come from?
It is true that "Jesus (p.b.u.h.) was as human as any man."  He did weep
and cried to God for deliverance from the pain of the cross (not salvation).
If you recall, Jesus regularly forgave people's sins because of their faith---
deliverance from sin is salvation.  While on the cross, he granted salvation
to the repentant thief.  I do agree with the passage from Mark and Isaiah.
As you know from studying the Old Testament, the nature of God was slowly
revealed to the Israelites over time.  You see in the development of the
names and titles ascribed to God.  The Jews viewed the Holy Spirit as
"God's breath" or "God's utterances" or "God's wisdom" but not as a being.
Without a belief in Jesus, Jews are at a lost to explain many passages
in the Old Testament like Psalm 110.  We as Christians see Jesus' message
as completing the revelation of salvation.  Muslims see the Koran as
completing this revelation.


>     Truth will stand out!  Today many leading Christian Theologians are
> realizing this truth and coming closer to the Islamic belief.

This has been true throughout history.  Schismatic groups have always existed
in Christianity claiming that Jesus was only human with no divine nature.
St. Augustine in the 400's documents 88 schismatic groups, many of which
believed this including the Gnostics (a first century schismatic group).
Modern day groups include Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Rastafarianism.


>     (In islam all Prophets are sinless and wondurful human beings)

I have never read such a concept in the Old or New Testaments.  An example
is the prophet Jonah.  He disobeyed God and was punished for it.  After
the punishment, he finally did preach to the people of Nineveh (traditional
enemies of the Israelites).


>     We pray that God Almighty will bring Christians and Muslims together on
> one great faith.

Amen.

Brian Evans
Georgia Tech