From: kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman)
Subject: Re: Life begins at ...
Organization: Boulder CO
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:58:37 GMT

> = Kurt Ludwick <KEL111@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>> = kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) says:
kl> = Kurt Ludwick <KEL111@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>bk> = kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) says:

--- THE question: ------------------------------------------------------
>>jh> = 90397106@bradford.ac.uk (JR HAVELOCK) writes:
>>jh> 
>>jh> I am currently writing an article on the stages of gestation. 
>>jh> I would appreciate any details/statistics on this and any ideas 
>>jh> (plus reasons) on when life beings. [...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

>bk> "Life" doesn't "begin", it continues and permutes.
>bk> Your question is ill-posed.

kl> Life ends, though. Doesn't that imply a beginning as well?

>> No.
>> [...]
>> (except in a StarTrek-type scenario or perhaps a god-related miracle)
>> [...]
>> EG: family trees can end, but they don't begin out of non-living matter.

> I can tell you with certainty when a tree's 'life' begins, and when it ends.
> Ditto for a human (though you won't agree. :)

Really?!  Tell me: when did my family tree begin?  
You know, the point before which there was no life (ie. no member of 
my family tree existed), and after which there was life.
Similarly: at what point did "human life" begin?

>> Note: I'm assuming you don't want to talk about the beginning
>> of all life on earth, many moons ago.

> Of course not.  The whole idea I don't understand is that an individual's
> life doesn't begin, but it ends.  You can't use multiple definitions of 'life'
> at once: first to mean an individual life, and second to mean life in general
> (which has no beginning and no ending).  One has clear beginnings and endings,
> the other does not.

I'm not playing semantic games.  I'm simply asking you to pose an unambiguous
question.  Perhaps I'm making some progress though.  You've just introduced 
the term "an individual's life".  Does this imply that you agree that 
human life, in general, is an ongoing continuum?

And what is the meaning of this new phrase, "an individual's life":
(a) "an individual's life" -- where "individual" suggests something similar 
    to personhood at some point during the life-span
    Eg: a infant is generally considered "an individual" (ie. a person)
(b) "an individual life"   -- which only suggests some fundamental
    permutation, separation, and/or branching on the tree of human life
    Eg: a zygote is generally considered an "individual life" (ie. alive &
    distinct from the "parent", but not necessarily an "individual" as in (c)
    An unfertilized egg might also be considered an "individual life".
(c) "a individual who is alive"  -- which suggests personhood at present

In summary, please form a well-posed question.  What is it you're asking?
Q1: when did life begin?
Q2: when does an individual life begin?
Q3: when does an individual's (ie. a person's) life begin?
Q4: when during individual's life does the individual life become a "person"?

It's all too common that someone will ask Q2, get an answer, and then carry 
on as if the answer was to Q4.  So what is "THE question" really asking?

-Brian (still curious)
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