HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Deliberate Ignorance
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:29:02 GMT


   Religion is simply the answer to question we don't understand. If
we reply correctly, we'd never know. Why would someone attempt to call
himself reasonable whiie simultaneously proclaiming any certain
evidence of for or against the existence of God; one of the claims is
necessarily false. A theist (let's say a Christian) believes himself
to be possession of the "Truth", which to him means the reality of
God, the atheist (or agnostic without the courage of his convictions)
will claim there is no God. There is no way to settle this question.
   Any resort to "reason" assumes first that your reasoning is going to
be acceptable to the other person, which means either that your logic
is perfect or that you're very persuasive, but your argument must also
use the terms that the other person can accept.
   The atheist will say, "You can't prove a negative", yet act and
debate -as if- the negative, "God does not exist" had been proven. The
Christian will say that God does exist and yet act as if He doesn't.
In each case, there are inherent contradictions; both positions are
compromised.
    The tactic of quoting the Bible out of context is a favorite
fallacy of both the atheist and the believer, and serves only to make
the whole debate ridiculous. The atheist invents all manner of wildly
inaccurate appeals to history to "prove" that the God of the
Christians cannot possibly exist, or if He does, He's nothing like the
God the Christians worship. This is pure hyperbole and contributes
nothing. The Christian for his part, makes appeals to all manner of
supernatural enities whose existence cannot be proved by any means an
atheist can accept.
   Each is speaking a different language. The atheist demands evidence
and yet rejects everything offered as evidence, a priori; there is
just no -admissible- evidence. The Christian claims that God can only
be known internally, through faith, a concept no atheist can
comprehend. An atheist and a Christian have no common ground for
debate, anything either says will sound ludicrous to the other.
   What is especially absurd about all this is that each attacks the
other without ceasing, what after all is the purpose of this
news-group? That reason is not important to either side is obvious
from the simple fact that the debate continues. You think you've
really got it all together, you use multi-syllable words, quote
obscure sources, try so hard to appear logical, yet the very exitence
of this group defeats everything you hope to accomkplish. 

Bill

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: rolls@cis.umassd.edu (Frank Pinto)
Subject: Exitence of allah
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 05:23:12 GMT

Hello all
any comments on this post (soc.culture.brazil)

rganization: Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison; Electrical & Computer Engineering
Date: 20 Jan 93 15:31:05 CST
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.brazil,soc.cu
            lture.bulgaria
Subject: SHORT NOTICE about a posting in alt.religion.all-worlds

Anybody interested! 

There is a PART-1 of an article about the EVIDENCES OF EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (THE G
OD)

WHERE?

In    alt.religion.all-worlds 
      talk.religion.misc

I wandered if they were skeptical about a.a.!


regards

Frank Pinto
From: christen@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Carl Christensen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Who is Billy Graham?
Date: 21 Jan 93 21:20:10 GMT
Organization: Temple University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

I find it highly annoying that this fanatic seems to pop at at
big political events.  He's been 'brown-nosing' politicians for years.
I think the most famous thing involving him and the presidenncy was when
Nixon was invited to speak at one of his stadium crusades.  Nixon
was still President at tthe time.

Evidendly, a large faction of Christian anti-war activists began 
booing and chanting against Nixon, much to Graham's (and other
all-American/Christian fanatics) chagrin.  He seems to always be around
when the US is in a war, for some reason.  He was with Bush right at
the start of the Gulf War as well.

I guess he wants to make sure that the heathens get killed!

--

Carl Christensen                      christen@astro.ocis.temple.edu
Department of Computer Science
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA  19122   USA         (215) 735-6787
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: How much should we read?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:04:38 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.183025.3995@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>>: A religion is barbaric if it teaches barbaric things.  If it teaches
>>>: non-barbaric things based on misinterpretations of a Bible that, interpreted
>>>: properly, should instead be read as teaching barbaric things...  well, that
>>>: doesn't count.

>>>I don't see how someone could give Deuteronomy, Numbers, etc. (as posted
>>>elsewhere) a 'non-cruel' reading.
>>Perhaps this is a failure of imagination on your part.
>Or perhaps Ken, you are still incapable of objectively discussing
>this rather delicate matter.  Perhaps it would be better if you
>didn't try.

It would be trivial to post to soc.culture.jewish and ask how Jews read these
passages.  (But remember that in this context, saying "you're stretching it"
and "that's a silly interpretation" are not responses, since the question is
whether the Jewish interpretation is barbaric, not whether it's wrong or
right.)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Strong atheism ought to explain theism (Was: Re: Atheism is dogmatic.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:42:55 GMT
Organization: The Language Game Inc.
Followup-To: alt.atheism

In article <11219@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert
Beauchaine) wrote:
>   I want an example of an encounter with god that was in every
>   detail as real to you as sitting at your terminal typing a reply
>   to my post.  Ideally, all of the senses would be involved.  If
>   not, something akin to a conversation with another person will do,
>   where you hear actual words, and see a complete solid body. 
> 
>   I want to hear of something so real to you that you could not tell
>   it apart from the routine of your daily life.

Descartes used the famous whispering deamon to measure this tricky
situation. Actually we might add even scientic issues dealing with
brain stimulation and chemistry. Anyone who's been drunk know what
I'm hinting at. Reality is what you create around yourself.

Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND
Private activities on the Net, opinions are not Apple's, they are mine.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: jpdurb01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: RELIGION & PRESIDENTS
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:17:37 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <1jmto4INN854@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, y41@aixterm1.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Jeffrey Hazelwood) says:
> 
>>Ok, I just watched Clinton's swearing in ceremony and I couldn't believe how
>>religious is was.  Since I'm in Germany, we saw it live but with German
>>news anchors.  They couldn't believe how religious the whole thing was
>>and found it amusing that the government could carry on in such a way. I 
>>found the innaguration disgusting. In America, if you don't preach about
>>God or carry on about religion you have no chance in hell(grin) of becoming
>>president! Just once I would like to see the president say, "Look folks
>>there is no God. Stop praying, get off your asses and do something about
>>our problems." or after winning a war "Don't thank the Lord for winning,
>>thank the fucking Tomahawk cruise missiles and the stealth fighters!" 
>>
>>KINISON MODE=ON
>>
>>WHY THE HELL WAS BILLY GRAHAM THERE?!?!
>>
>>KINISON MODE=OFF
>>
>>To sum it up, there was...The Homeboy Baptist Choir..Billy Graham..Clinton...
>>the Lord...Benediction...more prayers...Amen...
>>
>>What do you other atheists think about this? 
>>
> 
> 	Clinton=Bush=Perot=Dreker Kamph (spelling?)
> 
> 
> 
> that sez it all
> 
> -- 
> A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
>   also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
>    WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
> --------------------------bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu--------------------------


Appealing to the masses, appauling to a few, it gets more votes,

			jd
From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: All Atheists hear this!!!
Date: 28 Jan 1993 01:45:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, tombiv@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Andrew Spencer Tomb) says:

>In Job 38:2-11 The God of the Universe writes:

	[stupid bible quote deleted]



>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>E-Mail: tombiv@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
>"Only a fool professes to be wise"
>
>
>
>


	Like we really care what your sillly book of fairy tails says.

-- 
A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
  also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
   WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
--------------------------bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu--------------------------
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:26873 talk.religion.misc:27328
From: p00168@psilink.com (James F. Tims)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Ontological argument...
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:14:35 GMT
Organization: none
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   25 Jan 93 09:26:49 GMT
>FROM:   Darin Wilkins <wilkins@scubed.com>
>
>Alan Blair writes:
>
>>The basic ontological argument for the existence of god goes along
>>these lines...
>
>>"God is conceived as being perfect; non-existence would be an
>>imperfection; thus God must exist"
>
[...]
>with the entity 'Invisible Pink Unicorns'.  For example, in the version
>you post above:
>
>"Invisible Pink Unicorns are conceived as being perfect; non-existence
>would be an imperfection; thus Invisible Pink Unicorns must exist"
>
>A convincing argument, wouldn't you say?
>
>(BTW, this idea is not original with me.  Someone on the net - I don't
>recall who - suggested this a couple of years ago.  Does anyone recall
>who it was?)

Thanks, guys!  Try this.  Imagine the world's strongest chessplaying 
software is on your disk, optimized for your system.  
Now imagine that it doesn't exist.  Takes up a lot of disk space, but it's 
cheaper than Deep Thought!

Looks like I'm on the wrong end of a mate in 3, here.  See ya...

-jim
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bob@miggins.apana.org.au (Bob Rye)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Where does Adam and Eve Fit In?  Attn:  Jeff West
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:20:50 GMT
Organization: Mrs. Miggins' Pie Shoppe
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <jfelder-250193131154@latvia.lerc.nasa.gov>
jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov (James L. Felder) writes:

> >         Moses had something else in mind when he wrote
> > Genesis 1.  Figure it out.  There is a reason--a good reason,
> > a reasonable reason which made sense to everyone back then.
> 
> Yeah, believe and follow me, or I and my ultimate in big brothers will KILL
> YOU.  Mind control, even thousands of years old has very distinguishing
> marks.  The OT  is chock full of some of the best mind control techniques
> ever invented by the twisted mind of man. Evidence the longevity of this
> cult.

I have just been thinking about the Moses and the rest of the Wanderers. A
great many of them would have been scrounging for food along _the way_. I
wonder if any of them unknowingly selected a _kooky-cactus_ instead of
_typical-succulent_ and THEN witnessed burning bushes etc? I mean, there
had to be hallucinogens around even then...

Bob
-- 
+--------------------------------+---------------------------+
| It was every man's fantasy: to | bob@miggins.apana.org.au  |
| be kept by a woman whose skirt |                           |
| is as short as the lifespan of | FidoNet  3:633/359.7      |
| the man that she chooses...    | TriNet   42:8699/8.7      |
|                     - Al Bundy | AmigaNet 41:300/359.7     |
+--------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: God exists. Proof within.
Organization: I'm on a coffee break now
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:43:02 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

When you see statement like the one below in an argument, it's time to
move on:

>
>When I say the
>Bible is true I mean the word of God is true within it. You have to under-
>stand all the facts.
>

Are there any atheists out there who wish to devote several lives to 
understanding all the facts to get to the true word of god within the
bible which makes the bible true?

I certainly hope not.

BTW, we have a life, let's not waste it.

We need to get the christians arguing with the moslems again so we 
can sit back and count the bodies to determine which god is the best.


Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: A. Satish Pai <Pai-Satish@CS.Yale.Edu>
Subject: Re: How much should we read?
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven CT 06520, USA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:25:14 GMT


Thanks for all the responses!

-Satish




--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: Pai-Satish@CS.Yale.Edu                       | A. Satish Pai
UUCP:     ...!{uunet,harvard,decvax,ucbvax}!yale!pai   |
Bitnet:   Pai@YaleCS                                   | +1 203 432 1217 [Off.]
Mail:     Box 2158, Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520  | +1 203 776 7069 [Res.]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: dmcanzi@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi)
Subject: Re: Easter whodunnit
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:10:06 GMT

What's the point of trying to account for the empty tomb?  If some
people (such as myself) don't believe the Bible when it tells us that a
man rose from the dead, why would we be any more inclined to believe it
when it tells us that his body disappeared from its tomb?
-- 
David Canzi				"Shut up," he explained. -- John 6:43
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: From inferrence to conclusion -
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 08:02:04 GMT


   I posted some follow-ups to my other postings, but it seems that
the would-be Defenders of the Faith intend to exhaust themselves
protesting their own futility, so I moved over a notch. I was
surprised how quickly my postings received attention; it's like a
multitude of vultures were hovering, waiting for the unwary infidel to
trespass ...
   Well here I am. I was also suprised at the vehemence with which my
propositions were attacked. I never even stated a position, I merely
raised some questions, atheists it seems are just as aggressive and
abusive as any theist when they sense their position threatened. What
hypocrisy. Do you people ever read your own postings or do you content
yourselves praising your own cleverness (not to be confused with wit).

Ok, fire at will ...


Bill

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Needs that will have to be expressed in some form?
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 05:45:31 GMT

According to pages 225-226 of Kai Nielsen, _Philosophy & atheism : in
defense of atheism_, Buffalo, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1985:

   "What remains is what Bernard Williams alludes to at the end of a
    sensitive and sympathetic review of Mackie's _The Miracle of
    Theism_. Williams remarks 'as soon as one sees religion, as Mackie
    rightly does, as a purely human phenomenon, it becomes a matter of
    great importance what human phenomenon it is and which of these
    explanations [explanations like those of Feuerbach, Marx and
    Freud], if any, are true.' It is particularly crucial to ascertain,
    if we can, whether the content of religion (particularly 'its more
    unnerving and antihumanist content') is best understood 'as
    something alien to humanity and its needs' or whether it is best
    understood 'as expressing needs that will have to be expressed in
    some form when belief in God has disappeared.'"

                           -- Kai Nielsen
From: martin@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Martin Gorman)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Islamic proof of existence of god!!??
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:01:08 GMT
Organization: British Telecom

darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:


>No, it's not the same thing in reverse.  The "monitoring" is to stop the
>creation of an Islamic "straw man" and then attacking it.  It is to
>counter falsehoods about Islam that are spread on the net.  I think
>nobody would have any problem if atheists organised themselves to also
>counter the creation of anti-atheist, but invalid, "straw man" arguments.
>
But how many religious news groups are not moderated? 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: berked@aix.rpi.edu (Daniel Leon Berke)
Subject: Re: Atheism in pop culture
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:28:12 GMT

> 
> Can you think of any examples of explicit atheism expressed in pop
> songs or other pop culture works?
> 
> -- Brad Pierce 
> 


Perhaps my favorite song which expresses atheist views is the classic "Dear God"
by XTC (off the Skylarking CD).

The lyrics:

[First verse sung by a child]
Dear God, hope you got the letter and...
I pray you can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat from
God,
I can't believe in you

Dear God, sorry to disturb you but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in the amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about
God,
I can't believe in you

Did you make disease and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!

Dear God, don't know if you've noticed but...
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look
And all the people that you made in your image
Still believing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't, and so do you, dear God
I can't believe in
I don't believe in

I won't believe in heaven and hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down
The wars you bring, the babes you drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound
That Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'd perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in

[Child's voice again]
It's you
Dear God


This is perhaps the most blatant song I've heard on the subject.  And therefore
it's my personal favorite.
The video is rather good also.  It shows the child standing at the base of a
huge tree, looking up.  In the tree a whole assortment of people are sitting 
on the branches.  As the song reaches the last verse, the lead singer of XTC
(Andy Partridge) is chopping at the trunk of the tree with an axe and all of the
people are slowly falling out as the tree shakes.  


Dan

-- 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<> Daniel Berke           Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy  NY        <>
<> berked@rpi.edu         Department of Electrical, Computer & Systems Eng. <>
<> "Keyboard bad or missing.  Press <F1> to continue"                       <>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Which definition do you have in mind?
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 21:32:18 GMT

"Much of the discussion on the existence of race reminds me of the
obituary in _Time_ Magazine (January 11, 1963) of Arthur O. Lovejoy.
When the late Professor Lovejoy was asked at a government investigation
if he believed in God, he promptly rattled off thirty-three definitions
of God and asked the questioner which one he had in mind. But of course
it really didn't matter to the questioner. To avow a belief in the
existence of God simply assured one's participation in the
socio-cultural system, in which everyone knows that God exists out
there but we humans are just too ignorant to perceive or define Him
accurately."
                       -- Frank B. Livingstone

[Source: pages 55-56 of "On the Nonexistence of Human Races", Frank
B. Livingstone, in _The Concept of Race_, ed. by Ashley Montagu,
(Collier-Macmillan, London), 1964.]

Xref: sparky alt.atheism:26947 sci.skeptic:22809
From: meagher@skyfox
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,sci.skeptic
Subject: RE: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:17:34 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
NNTP-Posting-Host: sask.usask.ca

In a previous article, sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner) 
WROTE:
> 
>	I usually try to stay out of this thread, but I do like to check on 
>facts every now and then.  Killing babies is certainly commanded (in 
>connection with the Conquest), but where in the Bible do people rape and 
>kill their own children at the command of God?  
> 

I read this quote from a book on sociobiology:

Advice of Moses:

	"they slew all the males.... Now therefore kill every male among
the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.  
But all the women children, that hath not known a man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves."
			Numbers, 31

Maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but in the ballpark.  Moses 
was a pretty nasty dude.

Paul D. Meagher
Dept. of Psychology
Univ. of Saskatchewan
meagher@sask.usask.ca
From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A Challenge
Date: 22 Jan 1993 02:00:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Reply-To: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (White Rook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) says:

>For UIUC readers.  Do you think your position is strong enough to face a
>one on one confrontation.  Pick the best guy in the nation to represent
>your position, and who would it be?  WOuld you be interested in trying to get 
>money from the campus to fund a meeting between two people on atheism v. 
>theism, or Christianity v. Paganism, or God v No God.  Worth the effort?  What
>do you think.  Pick your best person, the other side picks their best, and we
>see what happens.  The only rule, we actually let both sideq
>mac
>.
>

	I would be interested. But -I- am NOT on a campus I am an unemployed
worker.
-- 
A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
  also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
   WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
--------------------------bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu--------------------------