From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:39:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.124742.22031@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.221202.22829@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
>(Jake Livni) writes:
>|>In article <1992Aug11.152038.1571@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zwsclu.
>|>writes:
>|>>In article <4428@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D
>|>>Thorne) writes:
>|>
>|>>The end of defeating the NAZI's in Europe is commonly thought to
>|>have
>|>>justified a war which cost 60 million lives.
>|>>
>|>>It is the pro-Shamir view that holds that their ends justified a
>|>pact
>|>>with the NAZIs.
>|>
>|>Seeing as Shamir wasn't leading Britain at the time and wasn't even
>|>leading any government, his concentration on saving Jewish lives,
>|>instead of the larger goal of ending the war, is understandable.
>|>You do what you can, not what you can't.
>
>Shamirs actions in offering to aid the NAZIs who were busy perfecting
>methods of murdering Jews is hardly consistent with the goal of "saving
>Jewish lives". It is however entirely consistent with the theory that
>Shamir was only interested in forming a dictatorial state with himself
>as leader.

Shamir was not the leader or in the leading group of the Lehi at the
time of this contacts it was Avraham Yair Stren who masterminded all
these actions. He was murdered by the British police in 1942. For at
least 6 monthes the Lehi was very hard-beaten and almost didn't act.

Only after Shamir and few others broke out from jail did the Lehi
return to action (no more contacts after Yair's death).

I think that portraying Shamir as the coordinator of all this action
shows us the agenda of the people attacking Lehi on this issue: smearing
Shamir as the current (now changed) leader of Israel and by this
associating Israel/Zionists with Nazism. Even when Shamir was one of
the leading Troika who led the Lehi he was organizator/operative not
ideological/political leader.

>
>|>>|> You'll have to explain
>|>>|>   what the British risked by honoring the terms of their Mandate to
>|>>|>   establish a Jewish Homeland.
>|>>
>|>>The Axis powers were eventualy defeated by denying them material, in
>|>>particular oil. Nobody was prepared to risk any possibility of opening
>|>>up another front by resettling a group of people making claims to own
>|>>the whole area.
>|>
>|>The British weren't asked to resettle "a group of people making claims
>|>to own the whole area."  By the time of independence in 1948, Israel
>|>was only a tiny fraction of Palestine.  The British WERE asked to
>|>allow these Jews to evacuate to safety from the Nazis.  This they did
>|>not do.  Millions died, perhaps needlessly.
>
>The policies of the Chamberlain Government are not at issue it was the
>Churchill government that Shamir was fighting, a government formed by a
>man who had opposed Hitler from the outset. You will have to demonstrate
>cases after May 1940 in which the British were preventing evacuation of
>refugees whose sole concern was fleeing from the NAZIs. You will also
>have to show that Shamir's attempts to support the NAZIs would have
>assisted this.

The Cynical and inhumane treatment of Jewish refugees was not PM-dependent 
issue in those days. Churchill implemented The White Book as well as did
Chamberlain. I'll remind you of the sinking of the 2 ships "Patria" and
"Struma" in the Black Sea in 1942. ~1000 refugees drtowned escaping the
nazi prosecution.

I think Churchill was too busy to think about it or simply didn't care.
This is not to diminish Curchill's great rights in fighting the Axis.

>At best the least you must accept is that shamir was guilty of a
>monstrous misjudgement. People who make monstrous misjudgements are not
>suitable to be heads of government, and those that tried to assist the
>NAZIs don't make good figure-heads of government either.

I agree that this was gross TRAGIC (IMHO) misjudgement. This is now
obvious from hindsight. You have to remember that people change over 
50 years and judging a 70 year old person on his actions in his 30s
in the midst of turmoil is not fair. and again: prove Shamir had any
active role in this contacts. Your argument applies to Yair not to 
Shamir. Yair is dead for the last 50 years.

>Phill Hallam-Baker

David Ben-Ami.
-- 
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  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
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