From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 9 Oct 92 01:36:33 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

In article <Bvtzx9.5rL@acsu.buffalo.edu>, psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes...

>In article <1992Oct7.164938.27930@macc.wisc.edu>, bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes...
> 
>>these groups deny each other the title too.  The LDS should learn to shrug
>>these charges off and realize they are far from alone in the dreary world of
>>being non-EC Christians.
> 
>	This is called equivocation. The issue is not whether 
>unitarians are christian, or whether being a member of a presbyterian 
>church makes one a christian. The issue is whether being a member of 
>the LDS makes one a christian.
> 
>	By changing the subject at hand, one is ignoring the issue.

Who's changing the subject?  I have two dictionaries at hand, the first 
definition given in each for the word "Christian" are:
- Declaring Belief in Jesus as Christ
- One who believes, or professes to believe, in Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints clearly meets these
requirements.  However if we narrow considerably this definition to the
Evangelical Christian definition as posted in this forum, then the LDS and
dozens of other beliefs, indeed the vast majority of Christiandom in the 
world today, fails.

Therefore I submit the tests being applied here in this forum are not tests
for "Are LDS Christian?", but merely "Are LDS Evangelical Christians?"  To the
latter I answer no.  However this in no way negates an affirmative answer to
the former question.

I suspect it would not be too difficult to find other minority group's
definitions of Christianity which would render a verdict of no to the 
question of "Are Evangelical Christians really Christians?".  If so then
are you willing to accept that you are not Christian?  If not, then why?
Because you disagree with the criteria?

If the purpose of the excruciatingly long posts in this forum is to 
demonstrate differences in LDS doctrines vs various Evangelical or Orthodox
Christianity then that is fine as long as LDS doctrines are presented fairly.
Perhaps the source of the contention is that certain Christian groups
dislike public claims from LDS that they are Christian and thereby may 
mislead potential LDS converts into believing LDS doctrine is more similar
to orthodox Protestant or Evangelical Christianity than it really is.
However I have seen nothing which refutes the rights of LDS to consider 
themselves Christians or to proclaim the same.

So I think it is perfectly acceptable for you, or anyone else, to dispute
LDS beliefs as to their consistency with your interpretation of the Bible.
However I do not accept your authority as the world's authorized arbitrator
of deciding who is Christian and who is not.

You ask "whether being a member of the LDS makes one a Christian?"  I would
answer not necessarily.  It is entirely possible that a member of the 
LDS may not believe in Jesus Christ.  Of course that member would then be
noncompliant with orthodox LDS beliefs.  I ask "Does being a member of the
Christian Missionary Alliance or Baptist churches make one a Christian?"
Is someone who believes in Christ and studies his teachings on a regular
basis in a effort to live a Christlike life a Christian?  Or must we now
carefully examine just what their "belief" encompasses?

And for the record, I have no reservations whatsoever about accepting you,
Mark, Tony, Barry, or Glenn as Christians.  Nor do I resent any efforts
on your part to contend with LDS teachings, as long as they are not 
misrepresentations.  Also I feel each of you do not deliberately misrepresent
LDS doctrines, particularly when teaching in the name of Christ.

Dana, trying very hard not to be "orthodox Mormonism's" spokesperson

PS  Interested in hearing "non-traditional" LDS dialogue?  Come to the Chicago
Sunstone Symposium held at the Hyatt Regency Deerfield, all day on Oct 17th.
For those in the Northwest, I believe another Sunstone Symposium is to be
held in Seattle on Oct 24th.  Note -- I am not an employee of Sunstone.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc