HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eoliver@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Eddie Oliver)
Subject: Re: Signal type (was: Re: Semaphore Signals)
Organization: Macquarie University, Australia.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 00:54:14 GMT

In article <28144@olympus.wustl.edu> jps@dworkin.wustl.edu (James Sterbenz) writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This is a very important distinction emphasising that this is a true 
>distant signal (unusual in the US these days), and unlike other 
>(combination home/distant) signals ONLY repeats the (home) interlocking
>signal.  There is no indication of the track between the signal and the
>interlocking and the engineer cannot assume that the track is clear
>based on the signal (there will be other ways to make this assumption)

There have been accidents because engine crews have forgotten this fact
in Australia. Have there been in the US/Canada?

New South Wales has many automatic signalling areas where the signals are
a substantial distance apart, so that warning of the indication of a given
signal is provided by a distant signal, not by the previous "normal" signal.
Consequently when a signal at stop ceases to be at stop, it goes to the
full clear indication, and the only warning that the next signal is at stop
comes from an intermediate distant signal WHICH CAN SHOW NO INDICATION
MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN CAUTION (i.e. approach).

Suppose now that a train is stopped at a certain signal "B". The signal
immediately behind it is the distant which is at caution, and the previous
"normal" signal "A" is at stop. The layout would be like

Signal A at stop --------  Distant at caution --- stopped train -- signal B.

If a train  passes signal A in the stop position (legally or illegally), the
next signal it sees is the distant AT CAUTION. If the engine crew forget that
this is indeed a distant, they may interpret it as giving a clear path to
the next signal. In fact there is a rather large obstacle in the way, and
much damage can result.

The obvious prevention measure is to hold the distant at stop while the
track circuit is occupied between it and the signal it repeats. While
this is now being done (100 years too late) in new installations, there are
still countless accidents waiting to happen.

Presumably not doing this in the first place was an economy measure, but
the cost of the accidents probably far exceeds the amount saved.

Eddie Oliver
From: rrw@elden.cse.nau.edu (Bob Wier)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Railfan Plates
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:24:00 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ
Originator: rrw@elden.cse.nau.edu

When I came into school this morning, I spied a car with the
license plate "C AND NW" above a bumper sticker which said
"I'd rather be on the TRAIN".  And this was on an Arizona
personalized plate. Now, that's a REAL railfan considering
what this state wants for personalized plates!

--BW
  (of RGS, D&RGW, D&SNG, and CATS fandom)



 - Bob Wier

  ---------- insert favorite standard disclaimers here ----------
                   College of Engineering
      Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff Arizona
  Internet: rrw@naucse.cse.nau.edu | BITNET: WIER@NAUVAX | WB5KXH
From: forags@nature.Berkeley.EDU (Al Stangenberger)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Maximum age for cars (was Re: Restroom Closings on Amtrak)
Date: 31 Aug 1992 03:27:51 GMT
Organization: U. C. Forestry & Resource Mgt.
NNTP-Posting-Host: nature.berkeley.edu

In article <8325@orbit.cts.com> hudson@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Hudson Leighton) writes:
>If Amtrak will not not handle cars older than 50 years that excludes any car4
>built before 1942.  Which cannot be trun because I have several friends with
>cars older than 1942.  Stephenson's "Survivor" 1926, Clover Colony 1920
>Lehigh VAlley 1916, Dianne Marie 1914 Just to name a few with build dates
>
The current issue of Trains has a good article on reconditioning old passenger
cars.  Apparently Amtrak requires a complete dismantling and inspection of
the trucks and running gear at age 40.  No upper age limit was mentioned 
for Amtrak's operating of private cars.


-- 
Al Stangenberger                    Dept. of Forestry & Resource Mgt.
forags@nature.berkeley.edu          145 Mulford Hall - Univ. of Calif.
uucp:  ucbvax!ucbnatur!forags       Berkeley, CA  94720
BITNET: FORAGS AT UCBNATUR          (510) 642-4424 FAX: (510) 643-5438
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: elw4@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L. Werkema)
Subject: Re: Old cars never die, they just....
Reply-To: elw4@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L. Werkema)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 12:22:25 GMT


In a previous article, b_nbca@icarus.lbl.gov (Bruce Nordman) says:

>I found the discussion of delivering new transit cars to the New York
>system interesting, and it led me to wonder what usually happens
>on the other end.  That is, are cars dismantled in the shops, and
>trucked away as scrap metal, or sent elsewhere?  I also imagine
>lots of parts might be salvageable for use on other cars of the
>same type.

  I don't know if these count as transit cars, but several of the old EL/DL&W
MU-cars, after being taken from service, were not scrapped but converted
into passenger coaches and sold.  The Indiana & Ohio runs a train between 
Lebanon and Mason, OH using three of these cars.

-- 
 o__II___---__---__---___I~~~|~______________    |~~~~~~|~~|~~~~~~| |~~~~~~|~~|
 _|______________________|___|_|     3000    `\  |      |  |      | |      |  |
/ o~~O-O-O-O-O~~O-O-O-O-O~~o~~~~o-o-o~~~~o-o-o~~~~o--o~~~~~~~~o--o~~~o--o~~~~~~
Evan Werkema---------------------------------------------------elw4@po.cwru.edu
From: qt@railnet.nshore.ORG (Ben Lanza)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Montana Cities
Keywords: great northern
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 21:34:33 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476

I would like some information on the following cities/
Helena, Clancy, Alhambra, Corbin, Boulder, Basin, Bernice,/
Elk Park, and Butte, Montana. I need to know availability/
of Great Northern track plans for these cities as well as/
businesses served by the Great Northern in those cities./
The era I'm looking for is the 40's & 50's. I have tried/
our local libraries (6) but they do not have anything./
Cleveland main library also did not have anything./
Any information would be welcome./

Benjamin Lanza
P.O. Box 33040
North Royalton, Ohio 44133-0040

Thank you. C.E.O. HELL - WEST & CROOKED RAILROAD/

--
qt@railnet.nshore.ORG (Ben Lanza)
Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: A few interurban questions
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:55:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.011145.5059@gw.wmich.edu>
31ochs@gw.wmich.edu writes:
 
>Well, the 1928 RR atlas doesn't show a Gwynneville on the map, but it shows
>a B&O line coming out of Indianapolis going southeast to Rushville, then to
>Connersville, then it curves south to Cincinnati. This line ended up in
>Decatur, Ill. It also shows an interurban line from Indianapolis to
>Connersville. It doesn't have a name listed, but it does show an interurban
>line paralleling it. There actually is an interurban line paralleling almost
>every line out of Indianapolis.
>
This would have been one of the several lines of the Indiana Railroad.  As you
say, they went in just about every direction from Indianapolis.  Some of their
routes were obtained from other companies, but I believe the one in question
was always Indiana Railroad.  Check one of the CERA books on the subject.
 
>There were 2 interurban lines coming south out of Milwaukee, one went right
>next to the C&NW line(NW in the book I have, I don't think C&NW existed yet
>in 1928) one goes thru Cudahy. Again, sorry I can't give you any names,
>the book doesn't list the names of the interurban lines.
>
Are you sure?  The only one I know of was the "North Shore Line", the
Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee.  If there was another, it must have
been a suburban route of the Milwaukee Electric.  That company's real
interurban lines went west and north from Milwaukee.  Again, the
definitive answer to all questions about Midwestern interurbans is
contained in the relevant volume from the CERA.
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: cal@ee.ryerson.ca (Calvin Henry-Cotnam)
Subject: Re: Signal type (was: Re: Semaphore Signals)
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 02:11:58 GMT

In article <92241.192651CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu> <CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>   The recent discussion about semaphores and signal indications brings up a
> point I've wondered about for years, but never asked. Why is it on some lines,
>  mostly branch lines I've noticed, there is a semaphore signal or some other
>  kind of signal that seems to be permanently set in the "approach" (yellow)
>  mode not too long before an interlocking crossing with another RR. I've
>  seen these on both Illinois Central and on a couple ex-PRR branch lines in
>  Indiana and Illinois. I would think that having the signals protecting the
>  crossing would be protection enough.

Consider this:  you're operating a train at normal crusing speed
and suddenly you come across the signals protecting the crossing
and they are red -- how do you stop?

By having a "distant" signal, this gives you notice of an upcoming
restrictive aspect in order that you may approach it prepared to stop.


> From what I can tell, these approach
>  signals never change indication, even when an opposing train passes by them.
>  I belive on the ex-PRR lines there was a letter "A" on the signal masthead,
>   which I assumed meant "approach."

In Canada the CROR (Canadian Rail Operating Rules) describe a letter
"A" on a signal mast as making the red aspect of the signal as
absolute, meaning stop and stay.  In Canada, most red signals are
absolute (2-head lined up, 3-head, and dwarf signals).

However, single head and 2-head with the signals not lined up are
normally "stop and proceed" when they are red.  The placement of
an "A" on the mast makes them absolute "stop" and the placement of
an "R" makes them "restrictive" meaning that a train may pass at
restrictive speed without even having to stop.

From my understanding, with many American railroads, the "A" has
the absolute meaning.


Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE            |    MY CANADA INCLUDES CANADIANS!
Ryerson Polytechnical Institute      | I would really like this to include
Toronto, Ontario, Canada             | Quebec - but I won't hold my breath.
From: djenkins@axion.bt.co.uk (David Jenkins)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Most spectacular passenger routes
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:15:50 GMT
Reply-To: djenkins@axion.bt.co.uk (David Jenkins)
Organization: British Telecom Research Labs


In article <7413@skye.ed.ac.uk>, ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Sep1.133907@axion.bt.co.uk> djenkins@axion.bt.co.uk
|> (David Jenkins) writes:
|> 
|> #  Although it isn't a regular public service (i.e.  get you from A to B
|> #  with minimum fuss) the Snowdonia Mountain Railway is worth a trip,
|> #  unless you don't like heights... 
|> 
|> 
|> Don't forget to travel from Llandudno to Porthmagog.  BR from Llandudno
|> to Blaenau Ffestiniog, and The Ffestiniog Railway from Blaenau
|> Ffestiniog to Porthmagog.  You can make the return trip in a day in
|> either direction.  The countryside is spectacular (although the Snowdon
|> Railway has a special claim in that regard!) and you get to travel
|> behind a steam locomotive on the narrow gauge section. 
|> 
|> -- Ken Johnson
|> 

But don't travel from Blaenau on the open carriages if they're couple
directly behind the loco!  We did, and thought it was great fun, until
the train entered the short tunnel just outside the station.

Picture the scene - a carriage full of holidaymakers in summer garb,
full of the joys of spring, suddenly plunged into darkness with the only
light the glare from the firebox.  The air was full of hot smoke and
coughing... :-)

We came out the other side (it's only a few yards long) to see thick
thunder-clouds looming... I still enjoyed the journey!

BTW, if you like walking, try climbing to the top of the mountain where
the hydro-electric storage system has been built, just a little way down
the valley from Blaenau - it's a spectacular view.  You can walk, drive
or take a bus (or you could when I did it.  Blaenau also has some
fascinating slate mines set up for visitors - one you can walk through,
and the other you ride on an underground railway.


David Jenkins

"You are better off not knowing how sausages and laws are made."
--Unknown
Xref: sparky rec.railroad:7022 rec.models.railroad:1726
From: K.Buck@ma30.bull.com (Ken Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,rec.models.railroad
Subject: Looking for Info on Erie Stillwells
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:40:29 GMT
Followup-To: rec.models.railroad
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.
Originator: buck@granite.ma30.bull.com

I'm looking for information on Erie Stillwell coaches.

I have access to the Carleton Erie/EL books, the Stauffer Erie RR book,
and the recent all-color book on the Erie by Sweetland, but none of these
goes into much detail w/r/t roster info, nor are there many good
roster-type pictures or drawings.  If there any "passenger car" type books
that address the Stillwells either exclusively or at least in detail, I'd
be interested in knowing title/author/publisher.


Some of my questions include:

Q1: Stillwells appear as both arch window and straight window varieties.
    Are the straight window cars merely modernized versions of the arch
    window cars, or were the later cars delivered as straight windows
    from the manufacturer?  Also, were any of the arch window cars
    modernized, or did the arch windows remain throughout the life of
    the car?

Q2: Assuming the straight window cars were delivered as such, what were
    the number series of the various sets of cars?  (i.e., if i recall right,
    2300-2399 were arch window suburban coaches; what about the others?)
    any detailed roster info. including delivery dates would be appreciated.

Q3: My interest is driven by modelling the Erie in HO scale.  I understand
    Railworks brought out both arch window and straight window cars in the
    not-too-distant past, and are planning on doing more cars within the
    next 6 to 12 months, including: 
        500-series baggage cars (arch window)
        combines (don't have the numbers handy)
        2300-2399 suburban coaches (arch window)
        2700-series thru coaches (don't know the kind of windows these have?)

    (a) what kind of windows do the 2700-series cars have?
        are these a repeat of what Railworks did with the previous run
        (i.e., more of the same straight window cars?)

    (b) if anybody saw the Railworks arch window cars, did they feel as
        I do that the arches aren't quite right?  comparing to photographs,
        the tops of the arches look a little flattened, not as rounded as
        they should be.  hopefully the next run of cars might be better,
        but only time will tell...



Any and all information appreciated, please reply by e-mail if possible
(but feel free to post also, for the benefit of others).
Thanks.

Ken Buck
K.Buck@ma30.bull.com
From: afsidgb@cidsv07.Berkeley.EDU (Gerard Burridge)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Roberval&Saguenay,Alma&Jonquire Oprns
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:36:22 GMT
Reply-To: afsidgb@cid.aes.doe.CA
Distribution: na
Organization: Environment Canada

Can anyone provide Roberval & Saguenay and Alma & Jonquire information
for
A) daily/weekly operations cycles, traffic patterns, if there are any;
B) photographically attractive TRAIN photo locations along routes?
Thx to all.


-- 
 Gerry Burridge                        afsidgb@cid.aes.doe.ca
 Canadian Meteorological Centre        Tel.: 514-421-4646
 2121 North Service Road - #404        Fax.: 514-421-4639
 Dorval, Que.  -  H9P 1J3
From: dfl@panix.com (Danny O'Bedlam)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: What is an interlocking? (was: Signal type)
Date: 29 Aug 92 22:54:08 GMT
Organization: Panix, (New Yawk City)

In <1992Aug29.155831.14910@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> waldin@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Earl Waldin) writes:

>I have seen the term "interlocking" used a lot lately, mostly in conjunction
>with signal descriptions.  I've figured out what block signals are but
>I'm not quite sure what an interlocking is.  It appears to be a junction
>where lines cross or merge.  Is this right?  Is the place where a siding
>joins the main line also considered an interlocking?  Please help this
>confused individual.

	To the best of my less-than professional understanding of the
railroad/subway BIZ, an interlocking is a type of signal CONTROL, and
means that the signals are controled remotely from 2 locations.  If a
line is only controlled from one place then it wouldn't inter-lock with
another.  Or it could possibly just be a name for the old type of 
machines used.  But on many of the drawings ive seen of NYCTA signals
a usual station/location "interlocking" is represented by a list of the
signal controls, many of which connect with other machines.


-- 
***********************************************************************
* Danny O'Bedlam  = dfl@panix.com = cmcl2!panix!dfl = Danny Lieberman *
* PO Box 3131 Church St Station, New Yawk, New Yawk, 10008-3131 (usa) *
***********************************************************************
From: burke@doright.Tymnet.COM (John Burke)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: re: Old cars never die, they just....
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:47:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)


Stan Fischler, in his book "Uptown, Downtown" which is about the NYC
Subway system, says a little about old cars, including an interesting
tale, which more of below.

Generally what he says is that NYCTA scrapped the cars when they got too
old to rebuild or were technologically obsolete.  I think the pre-war
cars were incompatible with cars built in the 40's and later.  Lately,
though, they have been rebuilding cars.  A lot of service when I was
last there a year ago consisted of visibly rebuilt R32, R38, R40, and
R42 cars.

The interesting tale is: in the 60's they were scrapping the last of
the IRT Hi-V and Lo-V cars - the backbone of IRT service until the
50's, the cars with three big single doors per side, the end doors
having vestibules.  Real classics (my grandfather was a motorman and
drove them till the early 50's).

Well, some employees felt they shouldn't let every last one of those
cars get destroyed, so they set out to foil the scrap brigade.  Now,
one of the beauties of the NYC system (to us railfans at least) is that
the system is complicated, heavily interconnected, has lots of layup
tracks and short spurs in tunnels; and IRT cars, being the smaller
type of car, can run anywhere on the system.

So a conspiracy was set up, and they took several of the Lo-V's and
hid them in the tunnels!  Eventually the scrappers would realize that
there were a few cars showing on the inventory which they hadn't
brought in for scrap yet, and someone would go looking for the cars.
Whenever they got warm, one of the conspirators would hear of it and
put out the word, and they would drive the cars off to a different
obscure tunnel spur.  I can just picture them in the dead of night
sneaking them across the Queensboro plaza junction or the Jerome Ave.
yard or the Canarsie/New Lots work train connection (those are the
only connections between the IRT and the BMT-IND).

The best part is, the story has a happy ending: when they set up the
Transit Museum in the old disused Court St. station and wanted to
populate it with old cars, lo and behold these Lo-V's magically
appeared to do duty!  Thus they were saved, and I saw them still
there three years ago, cleaner and brighter than they ever were in
real life.

Is anybody on the net who knows first hand about this story?  And
how did they hang on to those other old cars in the Transit Museum?

(By the way, this sig is supposed to be a deck-roof Hi-V, between
 a signal and a tunnel mouth)
__________________________________________=  
    _    __=======================__      /  
   |8|   |III  HHHHH III HHHHH  III|     |   My employer doesn't give
    |    ||_|________|_|________|_||     |   a *** about my opinions
___| |___=`O"-"0' `-=====-' `O"-"O'=________ on trains.
 " '^` "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "  "
burke@hobbes.Tymnet.COM  (John Burke)
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Death Announcement: SEPTA Trolleys in North Philadelphia
Keywords: trolley, transit, USA
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:02:23 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


urrrrrmmmm   Is it possible reports of the death are premature?

If this is the same item i saw on the newswire, it said the trolleys were
replaced by buses and trackless trolleys ONLY AFTER SEPTA(?) _promised_ to get
new LRV's online within 2(?) years.

Now, promises have been broken, but its not (on the face of it) "the end".

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.railroad