HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Libertarianism vs. government
Date: 23 Jul 1992 17:44:15 GMT
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gelato.mips.com

T. Archer writes:
|> Michael Polen writes:
|> 
|> >Ron Dippold writes:
|> >|> What?  Libertarianism is the belief that while there are people who
|> >|> are good, there are also people who are bad, and they are going to do
|> >|> bad things.  And the trickier and nastier they are, the more likely
|> >|> they're going to gravitate to the government as a source of power.
|> >|> And even the only slightly bad people are still going to do bad
|> >|> things.  Non-rational things.   The whole idea is to limit the damage
|> >|> these people can do, when their best tool is the government.
|> >|> 
|> >So any crime is acceptable as long as it is not done by a government?
|> >Who defines crime?  Who defines government? Who defines acceptable?
|> 
|> A "crime" is any action that is against the law.  Some laws are immoral, and 
|> the breaking of them is a moral act, but it is still a crime.  Crimes are 
|> acceptable or unacceptable according to public perception.  In general in 
|> this country, it is perceived as "ok to break the speed limit," but if you 
|> get caught, you pay a fine.  The government is defined by the Constitution, 
|> which is written by representatives of the people.  Crime is defined by the 
|> government, which makes laws, also at the behest of the people.  
|> Acceptability is defined by the general consensus of the population.
|> 
What does this have to do with Ron's original premise that the trickier
and nastier people will gravitate to the government, and that the idea
of Libertarianism is to limit the damage these people can do?

Even if all that is true, if you limit the damage government can do, these
tricier and nastier people will move elsewhere (private sector, TV evangelists,
Libertarian Party officers, etc) and do their damage there.  Now how do
you limit the damage they can do.  All Ron's proposal does is cause them
to use a different "best tool."

Finally, you state the breaking an immoral law is a moral act, but that laws
are defined at the behest of the people.  What the hell do you think morals
are.  God given, non-changing, absolute standards?  Who's God?  Libertarianism
is the literalist religion of politics, and deserves its place on the
fringes.
Xref: sparky alt.activism:13514 alt.society.revolution:425
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.society.revolution
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: AF/ATS: Revolutionary Cells communique
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 09:29:29 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <4669@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> tysoj@essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.121719.6938@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul20.081917.26758@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>>>Oh, goody. Next we'll replay the street battles between the communists and
>>>the brown shirts in the twenties and thirties....

>>As long as the last commie and the last brownshirt kill each other I don't
>>see this as a problem. :-)

>Well you are a fuckwit of the first order aren't you.

Actually you're the fuckwit.  Either you can't read or you are
historically ignorant.

>Even if the vast majority of the 20,000,000 soviets who died
>were not communists, what about the leftists partisans all
>over Europe who were butchered by nazis?  You think that
>they got what was coming to them?

Note that he was talking about 20s and 30s.  Not 40s.  And street
battles, not WWII.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: odin@world.std.com (Hank Roth)
Subject: Assholes!
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:57:36 GMT

<<<< via P_news >>>>

I would like to highly recommend a book called ASSHOLE NO MORE.
It is by Xavier Crement, M.D. and is a self-help guide for 
recovering assholes and their victims. I can think of several 
people I could send it to on these nets with sincerest hope that 
it would lead to recovery. 

The introduction begins thusly: "Like almost everyone else, I have 
been dealing with assholes all my life. For most fo this time, 
however, I have been, like most of society, trapped in our age-
old concepts of assholism. Failing to recognize it as a disease, 
I simply accepted it as a character flaw that could be modified 
or eliminated at will."

"I have now come to understand the true nature of assholism. It 
is an addiction as bad as alcoholism, chemical dependency, or 
codependency. It afflicts major portions of the population---yet 
most assholes are not the least bit aware that they are 
assholes!" 

The author goes on to describe certain characteristics that can 
be ascribed to common assholes, which are: "blind selfishness, 
unrestrained obnoxiousness, arrogant righteousness, an asbestos-
proof conscience (it won't even burn in hell), rejection of 
human decency, merciless exploitation of the innocent," and 
there are more, too many to name here. 

The author, who is not a psychiatrist use to be an asshole 
himself, when he was a proctologist. He names other high risk 
groups of assholes. Here are just a few: "male nurses, Internal 
Revenue Service agents, cops, bureaucrats, lawyers, other 
doctors, Anyone who drives as if he or she owns the road, 
evangelists, congressmen, bill collectors, People who play car 
stereos at full volume, parents of kids who run wild in public 
places," et al.

The book is available from Enthea Press. (address upon request) 
They also publish THE TAO OF MEOW and FART PROUDLY, if anyone is 
interested. 

**** "I'm OK, but you're an asshole"
                 Cardinal Pushing



Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: HISTORY LESSON: Chomsky on Cuba
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:56:56 GMT

In article <2A742D0A.14588@noiro.acs.uci.edu>,
rravelo@asturias.acs.uci.edu (Ray Ravelo) writes:
|>In article <1992Jul26.121449.7785@dscomsf.desy.de>
|>hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
|>>In article <2A704ECA.24545@noiro.acs.uci.edu>,
|>>rravelo@asturias.acs.uci.edu (Ray Ravelo) writes:
|>
|>>
|>>The problem is that this analysis is insufficient. You fail to take
|>>account of the fact the the people of Cuba have rather lower
|>>expectations (if not aspirations) in these areas. If you are
|>identifying
|>>Cuba as an area where there are human rights and ecconomic problems
|>then
|>>you are correct. However if you are trying to assert that these
|>problems
|>>may spark a revolution you are quite wrong. Since the effect of a
|>policy
|>>can be the only justification for it it follows that US sanctions
|>>against Cuba should be ended. This is not to say that Latin American
|>>sanctions may not have an effect.
|>
|>  Phill, could you tell us how/why do you know what the expectations
|>or
|>  aspirations of the Cuban people are?

They have not risen up in the way the US would like for the past 25 odd years.

|>  Also, could you tell us why you don't believe the lack of freedom and
|>  foodstuff could spark a revolution in Cuba? How do you think revolutions
|>  start?

If lack of food, poverty, and violence are all that is needed to cause
revolutions, God help America! On that analysis Washington, Detroit and
New York would have revolted years ago. I don't subscribe to a view of
history which proclaims the necessity of revolution when the lot of the
proletariat falls short, perhaps you do?

For all the bullshit about how great a revolution would be it's most
unlikely to improve matters. The French, Russian and Iranian revolutions
brought far worse than the Cuban one did. Bloody overthrow of the power
elite is not going to solve matters, it is unlikely that many Cubans
beleive that a further revolution would be better than the last.


Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch)
Subject: Re: "`JFK: ' The Book Of The Film, The Documented Screenplay" is out
Organization: Malevolent Pod People Anonymous
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:54:22 GMT

In article <15756@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>In article <1992Jul18.175743.11812@samba.oit.unc.edu> Robert.Daniels@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Robert Daniels) writes:
>
>>I believe the circumstances were that Rather was given a private screening
>>of the Zapruder film, and then went on the radio to describe what he saw. 
>>This was discussed in a series of postings on alt.conspiracy.jfk about 3
>>or 4 months ago.
>>
>There is some speculation that the FBI produced a doctored version
>of Zapruder with frames reversed to make the head jump forward.
>Could that be the one Rather was shown?  I'd like to hear what
>Rather remembers.  He could have been right.

There actually was a version with some frames around the head shot reordered,
and it was at one point shown to the Warran Commission.  J. Edgar Hoover later
clarified by stating that the reversal was an inadvertent error in printing.


>Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
>geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Jerry Kuch (t-gerldk@microsoft.com) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns

Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
From: rbuchanan@vitalink.com (Rick Buchanan)
Subject: Re: FAIR's _CounterSpin_ #10 -- "Managed Democracy"
Reply-To: rbuchanan@vitalink.com (Rick Buchanan)
Organization: Vitalink Communications Corp.  (Standard disclaimer of course)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:09:23 GMT

In article <9207210402.AA12148@poly.math.cornell.edu>, 
harelb@MATH.CORNELL.EDU (Harel Barzilai) writes:

>     
> -------------------------- COUNTERSPIN ------------------------ 
>   
> -------------A Memo on Campaign Coverage from FAIR------------- 
>   
> --------------(Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting)--------------- 

Just out of curiosity, what does FAIR have to say about the total
news blackout of anything having to do with the candidate of the
third largest party, Andre Marrou (Libertarian)?

Marrou got more votes than any other candidate in the first reported primary 
election results (Dixville Notch, NH. -- Marrou - 11 Bush - 9, all the others 
far behind).   Yet except for a few brief mentions on CNN during the night 
after the voting, there has been  _nothing_.  

And how about Lenora Fullani, candidate of the fourth largest party, the
New Alliance? 

I think FAIR's outlook on these two questions will tell us a great deal
about how "fair" FAIR is, and what their bias really is.

   ---   Rick

       ***  Muggers are just free-lance governments  ***
Xref: sparky alt.activism:13467 soc.motss:32490 talk.politics.misc:35874 alt.individualism:4571
From: wilkes@apple.com (John Wilkes)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:45:54 GMT
Organization: Apple

In article <nkghems@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
> 
> Actually, what I seem to notice is that almost every libertarian I know
> is a white heterosexual middle-to-upper class male.

Dick Boddie (an African-American) and June Genis (a woman) would probably
be quite amused by your observation.  They are the LP candidates for U.S.
Senate from California.  Mr. Boddie and Ms. Genis would probably share the
joke with Mary Gingell (a woman), the LP national chair.

John Wilkes  <wilkes@apple.com>
Xref: sparky alt.activism:13751 soc.motss:33182 talk.politics.misc:36656 alt.individualism:4764
From: mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 30 Jul 1992 19:26:30 GMT
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gelato.mips.com

Jens B. Fiederer writes:
|> Kathy Beatty writes:
|> >But under libertarianism, there would be no one to complain to, and no 
|> >mechanism for complaining.  And that's exactly why libertarianism, while 
|> >wonderful in theory, would in reality be a nightmare for minorities.  
|> >
|> 
|> There will be plenty of people to which you can complain, and the mechanism
|> will be speech.  The difference is that these people will not be able to
|> force a merchant to serve you.  They can, however, refuse to patronize the
|> merchant, set up a competing store, or at least suggest a "better" place.
|> 
|> Under libertarianism there will almost certainly evolve communities in which
|> certain groups (majority as well as minority) are not welcome.  There will
|> also evolve more liberal communities in which nearly everyone is welcome.
|> 
|> The greater success of the more rational communities will make them more
|> attractive, even to many of the children of the more prejudiced communities.
|> If you don't believe that, you are suggesting that
|> 	THE PREJUDICED PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CORRECT
|> 
|> I dont believe that.  Do you?

All things being equal, you may be correct.  But the problem with this approach
is that it is based on innacurate data.  Things are not equal.

Example:  Members of the minority community do not (on average) have the save
education and financial base with which to build, or even help build, a
competetive community.  This will prove to those with money and resources that
they are better and that libertarianism is good.  It will prove to the poor
that it is time for a real, not political, revolution.  Both will be wrong,
but the results will be the same.
Newsgroups: alt.activism
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Subject: Re: Masturbation to Ayn Rand
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 06:21:45 GMT


In a previous article, monnier@csa1.lbl.gov (JOHN MONNIER) says:
                                        ^^^
>                                     **^^^**
>
Someone is afraid of losing his job.
Is that good?

-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
Xref: sparky alt.activism:13667 talk.politics.misc:36373 alt.individualism:4705
From: mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:26:30 GMT
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: gelato.mips.com

In article <1992Jul28.220936.2847@anomaly.sbs.risc.net>, kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.risc.net (Michael P. Deignan (KD1HZ)) writes:
|> mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen) writes:
|> 
|> >Because as a business person you have protection and support from the community
|> >Your police/fire protection, the roads, parking, etc are all paid for by
|> >the community, including blacks.  If you want to spend their taxes, they have
|> >a right to expect you to deal with them.
|> 
|> Uh, Mike, explain the difference between the taxes a businessman pays and the
|> taxes an individual pays. Then explain to me how as a businessman I am spending
|> "their taxes" and not my own.
|> 
|> --  Dr. Michael P. Deignan (deg.pend.)      /   "Its okay dear,
       ^^                     ^^^^^^^^^  Oxymoron?

A businessman pays business taxes, a property owner pays property taxes, an
individual pays sales, income, and property taxes.  Even a renter pays property
taxes, though indirectly.

The services a business receives are funded from all three of these tax bases,
so in that respect, they are benefiting from everyone's taxes.  Even if
a business only benefited from services funded by business taxes, if there
are any minority owned business, every business benefits from minority paid
taxes, and vice versa.

Does that split your hair finely enough?
Newsgroups: alt.activism,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
From: veal@utkux1.utk.edu (David L. Veal)
Subject: Re: Preferred Discrimination
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:28:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.135416.13329@fig.citib.com> glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:

>And does this threat of beating continue to this day?  Or did it
>end when you left public school?  Do you continue to be discriminated
>against in housing or in employment?

     This will depend entirely on the individual.  Some people won't
rent/sell to people with long hair or who wear the "wrong" clothes.
The manner and reasons of discrimination may change over time, and
it may go away entirely.  It does not change the fact that the 
discrimination occured.

     I am very sorry you are currently having such problems, but that
gives you no right to belittle the problems of others.    

     One man's petty annoynance is another's intolerable harrasment.

>-- 
>Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
>Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
>New York, New York  10043
>The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.

===========================================================================
|David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  University of Tennessee             |  
|                                     Division of Continuing Education    |
| Statistics are any data which can be twisted to support your posititon  | 
===========================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.activism,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: Preferred Discrimination
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:54:16 GMT


In article <archer.193@utkux1.utk.edu>, archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.142313.14038@fig.citib.com> glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >In article <veal.122@utkvm1.utk.edu>, veal@utkvm1.utk.edu (David L. Veal) writes:
|> >|> In article <1992Jul23.123832.18186@queernet.org> rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> >In article <archer.132@utkux1.utk.edu> archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
|> >|> >>And if you are interested in bias, try being the only literate person in a 
|> >|> >>public school system that reveres jock-dom and football above all else.  I'
|> >|> >>ve shed my share of plasma on the field of bias.
|> >|> 
|> >|> >Yes, I agree, that's far more tragic than being denied housing,
|> >|> >employment, or the right to walk down the street in peace.  Enough of
|> >|> >this whining about racism, sexism, heteroexism... the real enemy is
|> >|> >sports fandom...  Yeesh.
|> >|> 
|> >|>      This, I like.  "My form of discrimination is worse than your form of 
|> >|> discrimination!" 
|> 
|> >You don't mean you actually think that being annoyed because
|> >you're an intellectual and everyone else in your school is 
|> >a jock is equivalent to being denied the ability to support
|> >yourself because of the gender of the person you fall in love with?
|> 
|> You cannot know how others have suffered, or why, because you have not been 
|> them.  Do not belittle the suffering of others.  
|> 
|> I was not annoyed, I was beaten senseless on a fairly consistent basis.

And does this threat of beating continue to this day?  Or did it
end when you left public school?  Do you continue to be discriminated
against in housing or in employment?

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: richard.donovan@factory.com (Richard Donovan) 
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: PEACE & JUSTICE GUIDE FOR
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:11:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: richard.donovan@factory.com (Richard Donovan) 

Please ask the folks at the Southern Justice Institute if they may be
interested in PL 92-272, aka Adoption Assistance and Child Welfare Act
of 1980 which has the FEDS paying the states a bounty of $25,000 per
child per year. It's right there in the Code of Fed Regs. Thanks.
From: jym@remarque.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.environment
Subject: Re: INFO: Greenhype on Oil Spills
Date: 29 Jul 1992 16:12:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu

> Afraid of comments, J*m?  Why make followups to you and
> not the net? 

=o= Two reasons:  (1) There's really nothing worthwhile to be
said about the matter, and (2) followups belong in alt.activ-
ism.d, of course, but as you know, Mr. Sherzer, yourself, and
the Third Stooge get your jollies redirecting such followups
to alt.activism.  Don't know why you dragged talk.environment
into it, but I don't really care, either.

=o= And there really is nothing more to say.  The reference
I gave (the March/April 1991 issue of _Greenpeace_Magazine_)
puts the lie to the whole stupid scenario you folks have cooked
up.  If anyone out there actually finds Mr. Sherzer's scenario
even remotely compelling after reading that reference, drop me
a line and explain why.
    <_Jym_>
From: drm@esl.com (Don McGregor)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Re: Top 10 Under-reported Stories of '91 released by Project Censored
Date: 26 Jul 92 03:38:12 GMT
Reply-To: drm@esl.com
Organization: ESL, a TRW Subsidiary

In article 3931@newstand.syr.edu, greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) writes:
 >
>You speak as though Bush's policy with respect to China is founded in a
>consistent philopshical position held by Bush with respect to foreign policy.
>
>It is not.
>
>Rather, the positon espoused by Bush wrt China is entirely ad hoc, which is
>evidenced by his arbitrary decisions to take the opposite approach with other
>countries.
>
If Bush's policy towards China were ad hoc, there would have been evidence
of reversed policy decisions.  To the contrary, Bush has consistently sought
to maintain good relations with the Chinese government.  That other countries
have been dealt with differently is simply a reflection of the strategic importance
of China.  

 The Bush administration has apparently come to the conclusion that the current
government is solidly in power and in no danger of being replaced by democratic
elements outside the Party.  Therefore there is no point in antagonizing the current
government to no effect, and creating a strategic opponent where there need be
none.  

It's interesting to reflect on the contents of the intersection of the set of those opposed 
to trade and cultural exchanges with the Chinese and the set of those in
favor of trade and cultural exchanges with the Soviets during the 70's and
early 80's.  I suppose the Soviets had the good taste to keep their gulags
out of sight, while the Chinese were gauche enough to just run  over
their dissidents with tanks in front of TV cameras.

---
Don McGregor | "The platform the program runs best on is the  
drm@esl.com  |  overhead projector."

Xref: sparky alt.activism:13266 soc.motss:32141 talk.politics.misc:35302 alt.individualism:4414