From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: Guilty?
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:05:16 GMT

In <1992Oct12.184025.97821@watson.ibm.com> Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com> writes:

>In  <Bvzn2E.GAo@cs.psu.edu>  beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct11.173632.97990@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes
>> >In  <Bvv5FC.FvE@cs.psu.edu>  beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Janis Cortese wrote the following on soc.women (moderated):
>> >>
>> >> ===   If I had a kid and someone threatened it, I'd slit their
>> >> ===   throat wide open and drink their blood with a smile in my face.
>> >>
>> >> I think not.  In particular, I saw no reason to interpret "with a smile
>> >> on my face" as a sign of violent insanity; rather, it seems a figurative
>> >> description intended to emphasize her point.

>> First, several people chose to interpret Mr. Steeves' posting literally;
>> would these same people grant the benefit of the doubt only to women
>> who make violent statements?

>I *did* interpret that she'd kill the attacker literally.

>> Second, it seems quite reasonable from his posting that he objected to
>> far more than "not showing the proper respect"

>It's clear that he also objected to the abortion, but the difference in
>the two scenarios was waiting a year before telling him, *not* getting
>or not getting the abortion.

That just adds frosting to the cake.  The two situations are quite 
similar, only you refuse to see it because you dehumanize the unborn
child.

[Careful, Larry: if you quote to me out of a dictionary I'll quote right
back at you.]

>> Since those persons who complained seem to have an outspoken agenda,
>> it is no great surprise that they concluded only "respect" was at issue
					       ^^^^
>No great surprise, considering that his words were:

These are only the words relevant to "respect".  Earlier words had
to do with the other issues.  It is typical of Larry to selectively
delete in this way and duck the *real* issue ("only") completely.

>#And with God or Allah (whomever) as my witness, I will say that in my own
>#situation, if the woman had *not* been so respecting as to tell me before,
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>#but in fact had not only told me right afterwards, but had waited a year (!)
>#or more, I probably would have snapped right there and killed her where she
>#stood.

Here are the earlier words:

#>However, I agree with Don Beaver that such notification *should* be after the
#>fact, although I believe this VERY grudgingly, because it is bad enough that
#>the man feels totally powerless in a situation where he is expected to be
#>responsible, but to tell him *afterwards* seems only like throwing salt in
#>the wounds.  Even so, I grant the possibility of abuse in cases where the
#>notification is before the fact.

Note the use of the words "situation" and "before the fact."  Without
the situation, the very use of "respect" becomes meaningless.

#>BUT, I do not believe that this rare possibility totally abrogates his right
#>to *know*. Thus,I would say that notification should be VERY soon afterwards,
#>although I think that the woman should at least have the decency, respect and
#>trust to tell him beforehand!  (Note my words carefully : I am stating that I
#>believe that it is advisable to tell beforehand, but that I would *require*
#>it to be told afterwards).

>> considering why she might have waited a year to "throw salt in the wounds,"

>Since you seem to have an outspoken agenda, it's no great surprise that
>you assume she waited a year in order to throw salt in the wounds,
 ^^^ ^^^^^^
Will said "salt in the wounds" himself, as anyone can see from 
the restored passage which 
Larry conveniently omitted, and as I said to Cochran, it is STEEVES'
frame of mind that is at issue, not Cochran's, and not even Beaver's.

To make matters worse, Larry Margolis slanders Beaver with the 
words "you assume". 

It is none other than Cochran who, for some time, put in his .sig:

"I warned Larry about such intellectually dishonest posting"
				--Peter Nyikos
Some people never learn.

Peter Nyikos