HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ca_ac@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: La Traviata
Organization: 
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:32:51 GMT

In article <92239.155230KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, Ken Sherrill  writes 
> Finally, Traviata is not as much of a conductor's opera as, say, Rigoletto or
> Trovatore. Toscanini, Monteux, Levine and Kleiber are among the few major con-
> ductors to record Traviata. Kleiber's is not on a level with his other opera-
> tic recordings. Levine has never shown particular affinity for the score. The
> other two are dead.
Lorin Maazel also conducted it with Lorengar/Aragall/Fischer-Dieskau and the
Deutsch Opera Chorus and Orchestra. This set is one of my sentimental
favourites. I was a virtual opera illiterate when I entered college (i.e.
Anvil Chorus, Ride of the Valkyries, Barber of Seville overture etc were about
the extent of my exposure to opera), when one day I hopped to the college
library and borrowed this recording of La Traviata, and I've been hooked on
opera ever since.
I think, but I may be biased by sentiment, that Maazel does a very
characterful conducting job here and fine singing from Lorengar and DFD makes
this worthwhile listening. However, the set is let down by the inadequate
Alfredo of Aragall.
						Alak Chakravorty
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Bottom ten operas
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:30:17 GMT

In article <78732@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>
>What?!?  Oh, no.  I can't agree.  Perhaps I should be a more exacting
>critic, with all my years of music school training, but anything that
>invariably stirs me to singing (as does _La Boheme_) has oodles of
>Musical Merit -- whatever *that* is supposed to mean.
>
>[sobbing deleted ...]
>
>Seriously, I have noticed an attitude among some so-called "serious
>musicians" of "Oh, it's just Puccini; what kitsch [or whatever the
>Italian word for kitsch might be]."  Anybody have any idea why?  (No
>fair saying "Because it's kitsch.")


Because they _perceive_ his operas as kitsch (or at least schlock).
Some people don't respond well to excessive sentimentality.  "Excessive"
is, of course, in the ear of the beholder.

For me, a more interesting psychological question is: Why would anybody
start a thread about music s/he *dis*likes most?  Why even bother 
thinking about works one doesn't like (and some other people do)?


-Margaret

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: VOCAL Wedding music suggestions?
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:50:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.171027.8556@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
> For a baritone-soprano duet, how about La ci darem la mano from
> Don Giovanni? You may want to check on the circumstances of singing to avoid
> complaints from over-knowledgeable guests, but it's a glorious tune.

Much as I love the above-named, I think if I were trying to celebrate
wedded bliss with a Mozart duet for soprano and baritone, this isn't
the one I would choose. You could hardly go wrong with "Bei Maennern,
welche Liebe fuehlen" from _The Magic Flute_.
From: jdhill@star-trek.bbn.com (Jack D. Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: what about Partch?
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:46:08 GMT
Reply-To: jdhill@BBN.COM (Jack D. Hill)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: archive.bbn.com


Does anyone know if Columbia has re-released _T_h_e_ _D_e_l_u_s_i_o_n_ _o_f_ _t_h_e_ _F_u_r_y on CD? I
taped the LP years ago when I was a conservatory student and the tape is not
in the best shape. Does anyone have a copy of the LP they would like to sell?

Jack
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Re: La Traviata
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:58:14 EDT

In article <BtLDzG.D3J@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
writes:

>In article <1992Aug24.163543.1@gsbacd.uchicago.edu>
ca_ac@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes:

>>	I would like to know what people think about the above issue. Perhaps
>>there is a simple answer as to why we do not have an ideal La Traviata on
>>disc. 
>
>Actually, I think there is.  Just chance, and bad luck.  PLUS the fact
>that the role of Violetta offers so many opportunities to a good
>soprano, that we carry a kind of image in our might of all that *might*
>be done with it, and even a very good performance on records might
>not satisfy our idea of the ultimate.

Actually, I have yet to see the *real* reason, which I will now tell
everyone.  The real reason is that the greatest Violetta of all time was
Greta Garbo, and she just plain couldn't sing.

%^)
From: akumar@pollux.usc.edu (Anant Kumar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: SpicMacay:L. Subramaniam(violin):LEC-DEM:Sep23:FREE
Date: 2 Sep 1992 09:24:00 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu


  Society for Promotion of Indian Classical Music And Culture Amongst Youth
                                (SPIC-MACAY)

                                 presents

                   An evening (Lecture-Demonstration) with

			      Violin Virtuoso


                             Dr. L. SUBRAMANIAM


				accompanied
			    on the MRIDANGAM by
				  GANESH

                        Wednesday Sept. 23, 1992, 7:30 pm.
			
   		     Crystal Cove Auditorium, Student Center
			   University of California
				   Irvine


		**ALSO AT:
		 US International Univ., SAN DIEGO. Sept. 24th, 7:30 pm.
			  Call (619) 291 9377 for more Info.
		**

                        ADMISSION FREE AND OPEN TO ALL.
	     (First Come First Served, limited by hall capacity)

		For CARPOOL and other info, contact:

                           UC, Irvine       (714) 856-3589 (Sanjiv)
                           USC, Los Angeles (213) 745-2917 (Kartik)
                           UC, Los Angeles  (310) 312-1644 (Munira)
			   CSU, Fullerton   (714) 992-5875 (Subha)

                or e-mail: narayan@ics.uci.edu (sanjiv)
			   anantk@usc.edu (anant)

Lecture-Demonstration: 
---------------------
The artist explains the art form and its intricacies. 
Dr. Subramaniam will present the Violin as a Carnatic music instrument
and explain the subtleties of Indian music.

Directions and Parking:
----------------------

 405 south or 5 South
 exit Jamboree go right
 left at campus
 right at bridge (2nd light)
 left at Pereira (1st light) 
 enter parking garage on the left.
 Crystal Cove is in the Student Center opp from the garage,

 PARKING: $ 2 per car.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:48:40 GMT

With deference to Margaret's sensibilities, it's probably time to shift
this discussion into e-mail.  So this will be my final post on this
noisome subject.  (Please, no applause)

In article <1992Aug27.162250.15149@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> you write:
>In article <1992Aug26.170343.10602@fid.morgan.com>, steve@fid.morgan.com
>> Brian Yoder calls Cage evil.  You foam at the mouth.  Cornelius
>> Cardew calls Cage soulless.  You laugh it off.  Something's gone
>> wrong here. 
>
>Your perspective, methinks.

By definition.

>  			It is Yoder who is doing the foaming,
>what with his "objective" definitions which are as impeachable as
>they are ludicrous. 

Ludicrous?  In what way?  Crudely argued, perhaps; philosophically 
naive, certainly.  Apart from some tactless rhetoric regarding Cage's
death, I've never heard Brian raise his voice or call names.  Either
your memory is playing pranks, or you're simply sucking up to the mob.

>			Yoder's detractors have simply been pointing
>that out, and quite civilly too, given Yoder's exuberant hyperbole.

You should check your mailer.  I don't think it's behaving properly.

>Ah, but there's the rhetorical basis of music.

Sorry, I don't understand this at all.

>Anyway, if Cardew were making his accusations *on the net*, he
>probably would be attracting a fair amount of discussion.  But
>lacking the ability to interact with him, one might as well laugh
>it off.

Laughing off the dead.  Now that's a comforting thought.  Has
the gadfly not read his Shakespeare?

>	As one would laugh Yoder off, except for his login.

Oh, you mean it was his *login* that triggered all this.  I see.

>Now, about the "crimes" of this "evil" Cardew person.  My God, man,
>he merely championed Mao's philosophy--he never killed anyone!

Merely?  Have you learned nothing about the bureaucratization of
evil from the events of this century?

>If you, say, supported George Bush 4 years ago, or today, or even
>voted for him, does that make *you* responsible for, oh, the 100,000+
>Iraqi civilians killed by the bombs or starved to death in the
>continuing aftermath of his sycophantic support of the Saudis?

Yes.  That is what "voting" and "responsibility" mean in a political
context.  It's not a game.

>               *** ***
>Ken Perlow   ***** *****
>27 Aug 92   ****** ******   10 Fructidor An CC
>            *****   *****   gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM
>             ** ** ** **
>...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!

Gadfly-specks, and not nearly audacious enough.


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Rusalka (was Re: so-so opera / great recording?)
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 01:27:32 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug28164423@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>John R. Dooley writes:

>   I've only seen (or heard) one recording of Dvorak's "Rusalka". ...
>   The story is kind of a Bohemian version of "The Little Mermaid".
>   The music is charming and the performances are beautiful, so I nominate
>   this as a "fringe" opera recording worth finding.  (And I can definitely
>   say it's a fringe opera in So. California, because I've never seen where
>   anyone performed it.)


Actually it had a famous production in San Diego in the 1970s.  But
you're right, it isn't often performed (though it turned up in
Philadelphia about 5 years ago, with Ashley Putnam).  The CD recording
John mentioned is a wonderful one, starring the great Gabriela
Benackova.  This is definitely a further example of the kind of work I
was talking about.  And though the opera has dramatic problems, it is
one of the most continuously beautiful (in terms of sheer sonic
impression) ever written.

>There's a video version of it, but (perversely enough for the only taping
>of something) it's one of those "concept" productions.  

You make it sound a lot more perverse than it is, Chris.  (But then,
that's consistent with your attitude about "concept" productions.)

>The concept must
>have been inspired by Chereau's Wagner, because it's set in the 19th
>century with various other alterations.  

Not any alterations to the text (other than a faithful translation into
English).  This English National Opera production presents the mermaid
tale as a kind of Alice in Wonderland story, the dream of a girl just
growing into womanhood and turning her sisters into pixies, her
governess into a witch, her father into a prince who is both kind and
mean to her, and so on.  I thought it worked marvelously.  So did Andrew
Porter (no friend to concept productions), who defended it at length in
The New Yorker.  I only own half a dozen opera videos, and this is one
of them.

>(If the medium is the message,
>the message I get from these productions is "We didn't really like this
>work in the first place.")

That's the message you choose to receive, I guess.  I found that this
production made the opera work in a way I always hoped it could.  It is
a problematic and dramatically uninvolving drama (however beautiful
the music may be).  Frankly it needs some help, and this production
provided it.  Chris, I guess your position would be that if one feels
that way about an opera, one should leave it unperformed?  That becomes
a harsh principle with "fringe" works like this, that almost work, or
work in part.

The dedication and care and imagination and detail of the ENO production
tells me that they love it enormously.  Any US opera company would be
envious.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:37:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.113912.8009@nuscc.nus.sg> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.074603.7557@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
>Apter) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.013839.21419@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>
>>dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug24.153614.4915@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
>>>Apter) writes:
[...]
>>
>>Tell me what you think of Paul de Mann, by all accounts a warm and
>>charming human being.  Never mind the anti-Judaic trash he penned
>>for the Nazis.
>>
>Paul de Man (note the correct spelling)

noted.

> 					 was also a man from whom you could
>learn a thing or two about literature.

Where have I said or implied that I couldn't?  Here is something I've
learned from de Man:  some theories of meaning and truth appeal more
than others to those who wish to obliterate, reinterpret, and avoid
responsibility for their past actions.  

					  Check out the Minnesota collection
>of essays he wrote between 1953 and 1978 (unless you have decided to condemn
>it to the same ash heap as his Nazi propaganda).

There is at least a prima facie case to be made that, issuing as they
did from the same hand, the propaganda and the lit-crit bear the mark
of the mind that moved the hand.  Have you read any of the war-time
articles?  

						  (You can also learn a bit
>about Heidegger;  but since Heidegger ALSO had Nazi connections, I guess you
>would deem such education either detrimental or worthless.)

I expect you mean "from Heidegger", else what follows doesn't seem to 
follow at all.  (Well, I suppose that, caught up as you are in "furious-
debate" mode, you didn't have time to review what you had written.  You
certainly didn't take the time to read my original reply to your reply
to my initial posting.)  Having worked my way through _Being and Time_
(twice), the preparatory work on time, the later lecture material on Nietzsche, 
Hegel, Kant, and Husserl, and the works on art and technology, I suppose 
I'd feel like a fool were I to claim that I had learned *nothing* from 
these labors.  Why don't *you* tell *me* a) what you have learned from MH,
and b) what you think I should learn, that have nothing to do with the 
Heidegger's pusilanimous behavior before, during, and after the war?

>Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
>National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
>Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
>Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:58:17 GMT

In article <Btnuzo.K2M@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
[...]
>
>In other words, reading will *not* be allowed.
>
>I agree with this idea, by the way.  How often I've cut myself off from
>really participating in a spellbinding performance by dutifully
>following along my printed text, and in the process missing what was
>really going on.
>

One of the reasons I enjoy NY City Opera is their use of supertitles.
Sorry, my Italian** is just not good enough to follow the story line
of an unfamiliar opera.  Any opinions on the use of this technology?
How widespread is its use?

>Jon Alan Conrad

**German, French, Urdu, &c.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Shostakovich's 2nd Symphony and politally correct music
From: hanly@brandonu.ca
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:46:27 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Shostakovich's 2nd symphony involved an attempt on his part to do
something that was politically correct. The symphony was commissioned by
Muzsektor in June 1927. Shostakovich was badly in need of funds at the time.
There were two main groups of composers who determined `political correctness'.
The RAPM or Russian Association of Proletarian Musicians was a reincarnation
of the Proletkult or Proletarian Cultural and Educational Association.
This body under Bogdanov had attempted to proletarianise the arts.
Lenin, who enjoyed bourgeois classical composers of the likes of
Beethoven, abolished the Proletkult in 1920 but followers of this
line lay low and regrouped after Lenin's death, forming the RAPM.
A third group of proletkulters called Prokoll shared RAPM desire
to proletarianise art but distanced itself from RAPM which they
regarded as a group of hacks simply carrying out party propoganda aims.
ACM or the Association of Contemporary Musicians was constituted of a
wide variety of composers who shared the belief that music should be
independent of state control and international. This group invited leading
western modernist composers to the USSR during the NEP period.
It included relatively conservative composers such as Myaskovsky, Mosolov
( who wrote the IRON FOUNDRY) , and the modernist Shcherbachov.

Shostakovich First symphony had been criticized by ACM as being old fashioned
and not modern enough. RAPM criticized it as being unproletarian and
the 2nd half showed the influence of the bourgeois individualist
Tchaikovsky. The second symphony tries to placate both groups.
The first two thirds of the second symphony contain some of the most
far out experimental music Shostakovich ever wrote. There is virtually
no thematic material but piled up textures of sound, in which great
numbers of unrelated threads wander around often working themselves
up to ear shattering crescendoes. There is nothing proletarian about
most of the symphony. The final choral part based on a poem by the
proletarian writer Bezymensky, represents Shostakovich's attempt
to please RAPM. It is politically correct according to the gospel
of RAPM. Even though the two organizations approved of the symphony,
the public showed no interest in it at all, and critics were quite
lukewarm. Muzektor, which commissioned the work, was not at all impressed
and it was years before Shostakovich was commissioned to write
anything again by this group.
From: dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz (Dale Gold)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Supertitling
    <1992Aug27.215817.13690@fid.morgan.com>
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:06:19 PST
Organization: New Zealand Symphony Orchestra

Quoted from <1992Aug27.215817.13690@fid.morgan.com> by steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter):
> In article <Btnuzo.K2M@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>>
>>In other words, reading will *not* be allowed.
>>
>>I agree with this idea, by the way.  How often I've cut myself off from
>>really participating in a spellbinding performance by dutifully
>>following along my printed text, and in the process missing what was
>>really going on.
> 
> Sorry, my Italian** is just not good enough to follow the story line
> of an unfamiliar opera.  Any opinions on the use of this technology?
> How widespread is its use?

Well, you can't get much farther away from the mainstream than New Zealand,
where any production that can afford the technology it will use it.  I
think it's far superior to trying to read from your program during a
performance, and there is the added benefit that some of the musicians in
the pit might be able to read the sur-titles and therefore give a better
rendition of the work at hand!

I was interested to read a newspaper article (source unknown) which
appeared on the bulletin board at work a couple of years ago which alleged
that Italian and German opera listeners couldn't understand a whole lot
more of the words in their `local' operas than English speakers.  Does
anyone know any more about this?

Cheers,
Dale

--
- dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz
- Korokoro, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@airy.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Janacek's Glagolitic Mass
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:53:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.054552.9951@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>
>[About the "Glagolitic" or "Slavonic" Mass by Janacek:

>My rule of thumb regarding Janacek:  the closer to Brno the better.
>
>Margaret, if you're listening: 

Yes, I'm listening, but with a growing dismay at the state of this
newsgroup.  Who would believe that it used to be a very civil and 
informative group?

>which performance was available on
>LP (Urania?  Monitor?), and entitled _Slavonic Mass_? 

A lot of recordings call this Mass "Slavonic".

>Czech conductor,
>ancient-sounding recording.  Not Talich.  Not available yet on CD.
>Memory says:  the best ever.

A Moravian orchestra and chorus (from Brno), conducted by Bretislav 
('r' with hacek) Bakala.  Originally Supraphon (obviously), distributed
in the West on the Urania label.  1960s.

If you really found it the best ever, then this is indeed consistent 
with your rule of thumb.

What in the world made you think I would know anything about this
recording?  :-)

-Margaret
From: k@west.darkside.com (K)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Defending Cage (cont. oops!)
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:51:30 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

Pardon my blooper; I was cut off in mid-
   to continue:  Thanks to the wonderfully short attention span most of 
us have developed in the late 20th century (was it the tv?)  Cage, and 
the like, will have to wait a while to CATCH-on...  he is appreciated by 
by a unique following, one which will not be experiencing any trumendous 
growth attributable to arguing FOR his case.
I am a fan of Cage: his writings, lectures and compositions (before and 
after 1950, when he began his use of indeterminicy) have all served as 
INSPIRATION to my own composition.  I do not need, however, to defend 
him. . . he's a big boy and is able to stand on his own.  After all, Cage 
has said that he has no care for what sort of criticism befalls his 
music: he has removed his taste and ego from his compositions and so any 
criticism of the work has no reflection on him.
Performance art, by the way, was NOT started by John Cage.  Do any of you 
remember the Futurists?  How about Dada?  The theater of the absurd?
Enuf Soap Box.

.k.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical