From: curt@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Curt Welch)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm
Subject: Re: Galaxy Results Format
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:04:09 GMT
Reply-To: curt@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Curt Welch)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Curt Welch <curt@oasys.dt.navy.mil> writes:
> I think building industry is fine, but having to grow population just
> makes the game more tedious and time consuming.  The tedium of
> planning the logistics of the transportation of colonist and capitol
> are exactly the type of thing that you could automate.

David desJardins <desj@ccr-p.ida.org> writes:
>I think this quote just goes to show how differently different players
>see the game.  I strongly suspect that the parts of the game I find
>interesting are exactly the parts you find uninteresting, and vice
>versa.

This of course is always true.  Everyone finds different aspects of
the game they like.  One of the reasons for posting my ideas about
Galaxy was to get a feel for how many other people might feel the
same way I do.  If some other people felt the same way, then I might
take the time to make the changes and run a game to see how it goes.

>What I like about Galaxy is the challenge of maximizing growth
>by optimizing the schedule for producing ships, capital, and research,
>and for delivering resources to colonized worlds.  (This was a very big
>part of the version 2.X game.  It is less significant in 3.X simply
>because maximizing growth is so much easier.)

I'm playing both 2.X and 3.X games now but I don't understand why you
say maximizing growth is so much easier in 3.X.  Could you explain this
to me?  Is there something important I'm missing?

>Of course I have also played and enjoyed PBM games which are much more
>complicated than Galaxy.  Games which are 10 on the 1-to-10 scale, where
>Galaxy is about a 3.  (Eventually I did decide that the 10 was too much,
>and that I prefer no more than 8 or so.)

I can see where games of much higher complexity would be fun.  But for me,
I just don't have that much time in my life to play games.

Actually, I'd like to see a Galaxy type game that wouldn't last quite
so long.  At one move a week-day, Galaxy lasts something like 4 to 5
months.  I'd like to see a game that would only last 1 to 2 months so
I could play twice as many games in the same time.  I'll have to think
about how I could change galaxy to make this happen - yet still try to
keep it interesting.

>> But once you decide which planets to develop, and how many turns you
>> are going to spend building industry, then the rest - i.e.  making
>> sure you have your transports in the right place and making sure you
>> have more colonist than industry, and making sure you have all the
>> correct routes set up, and generating all the B,L,S, and R commands is
>> booring and time consuming.  I find I can usually make the initial
>> decisions in about 5 minutes, then I quite often spend another 60
>> minutes checking and double checking all the logistics issues.
>
>To be perfectly frank, if you are making these basic decisions in 5
>minutes, you are doing a pretty lousy job.  How do you decide exactly
>how much of each resource you need in each place?

It's much better to fully develop a few planets than to partially develop
lots of planets because a planet costs the same amount of money to defend
no mater what size it is.  So the five minute decision is picking which
planets to develop next.

The 30 minutes of work is calulating how many colonist and and how much
industry needs to be shiped to planet X because it's about to become fully
populated, etc.  You have to calculate how much the planet will grow
in population on it's own, so you can figure out how much to ship to
that planet vs how much to ship to your next planet, etc.

>And exactly what ship
>designs will be most valuable in the long run?

You can't calculate this because the correct answer is based on
knowning, or guessing what the other players will do.  There are some
stupid things you have to learn not to do, like building a drive-only
ship with more than one drive.  But once you learn the basic correct
stratiges, then the choice is a matter of taking a random guess at
what the other players will do.  Making that guess only takes me 5 or
maybe 10 minutes.

But I admit that I end up thinking about it for a lot longer.  Like
I find myself taking a 30 minute shower and spending most the time
thinking about what might happen in the next 5 to 10 moves of the
Galxay game.

But this is the part that I find interesting.

>And when to buy research vs. when to build ships?

Same thing.  You can't calculate this.  You just have to guess what
the other players will do.  You do have to spend time studying what
the other players are doing, so you can make your decisions, but still,
this only takes about 5 minutes per move.

If, in the next 20 turns, you plan on spending 10 turns doing research
and 10 building ships, it's obvious that to end up with the best fleet,
you have to do the research first, and the ship building second.

If another player does the same thing, and builds the same ships, but
builds the ships first, and does the research second, you will end up
with the stronger fleet after the 20 turns.  But if he desides to attack
you on turn 10, your dead.

So the entire decision of whether to do research on turn X or to build
ships instead, is a crap shoot based on your best guess as to what the other
players will do.  i.e., when will they attack, what planet will they
attack, and what size and configuration force will they attack with.

>There's a reason that I have the largest industry in each of two games I
>am in (Clarke and Alpha).  It's because I take care with these
>decisions.

I doubt that's the entire reason.  If you have the largest industry,
then you probably have the smallest fleet (depending on how far along
the game is) That's just the gamble you have chosen to take.  If two of
your neighbors decided they didn't like you having that much industry,
and launched a joint attack, you would most likely be dead.  You have
just decided to gamble on them not doing that.

It's dangerous getting to far out in front with industry.  The rest of
the players see you as a threat and gang up on you.  No mater how much
time you spend calculating your moves, you can't win against an angry
mob.

>You just can't make these long-term decisions in even
>approximately the best way without making some detailed calculations of
>their consequences.

I think it's a waste of time over-calculating these long-term decisions
because most of the long-term outcome is based on in factors you can't
control or predict - like who will attack you and when.  Not to mention
the luck factor which also plays a big role.  I won a big battle with
the VOGONS that basiclly decided the fate of the game for him.  Why?
Not because he or I spent hours calculating moves, but because his
e-mail didn't get through so half his force didn't show up.  Pure
luck.

And in the same game, the HoseHeads made a decision to launch an early
attack against Russell's home world.  Given the make-up of the two
fleets, the VOGONS "should" have lost.  But he got lucky and won the
battle.  Russell was knocked out of the game and the HoseHeads are now
basically in first place because they were able to develop their corner
of the galaxy (which was twice the size of every one else's area) with
no interference.

And at this point of that game (move forty something), the outcome is
going to be determined by what teams get formed, and what they decide
to do, not by who made the best decision on what type of ship to build
back in the first 40 turns.

Which is why I'd like to reduce the amount of calculations that the
game encourages you to do in the first 40 moves.  I don't mind spending
2 hours thinking about strategy, or 2 hours figuring out the best tactics,
but I don't like being forced to do 2 hours of math problems and logistics
to implement it.  At first, the math problems and logistics planing were
interesting, but now I find them a pain.

If a change to the game will reduce the amount of time spent on math
problems, I think it would be an improvement.  Whether removing the concept
of colonist does this or not is another question.

I'm going to try and find some time next week to implement "my" version
of the game.

Curt
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