From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Subject: Re: Computer shops in Toronto --- opinions?
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:00:42 GMT

In article <713748564.15422@zooid.guild.org>
	vid@zooid.guild.org (David Mason) writes:

>>Is the main goal to have a good, solid working computer, or to insist
>>on a clone?
>
>The former, which generally coincides with the latter.

While a clone may be as good as a name brand, it isn't necessarily so.

>>The marketplace for computers is getting more competitive and more
>>commodity oriented. If you can buy a reputable-name-brand computer for
>>the price of a clone, why bother with the clone?
>
>Because. Name brand computers don't use standard parts.

Remember this line for later.

>When you want to upgrade,

depends totally on the quality of the vendor. A good name-brand vendor
can help you upgrade as easily as a clonemaker.

>get advice,

Please offer any kind of evidence of why a clone maker *necessarily*
offers better advice than a name-brand vendor.

>or get repairs

Repairs? Hah! How many clone makers even have schematics of the stuff
they sell, let alone know how to fix 'em?

But yes, let's talk about repairs. 

How many clone makers have a coast-to-coast on-site warranty? How many
clone makers offer *any* kind of on-site service contracts?

I had a client with a Dell under warranty have his keyboard go blewie.
Called Dell. Next day there's a Fedex box on hist doorstep with a new
keyboard, and a prepaid waybill to allow the client to send the old
keyboard back in the same box. Minimum down time, identical service
through most of urban Canada, no questions about how the problem
happened. I have yet to find a clone vendor willing to offer this level
of service.

But then, if your own time is worth nothing to you, than the extra
downtime, and the time you spend hauling the hardware back and forth to
your clonemaker, is probably a small price to pay for that real bargoon
you got on the original hardware, eh?

I don't buy cheap hardware because it costs too much.

>you are stuck getting them from the company that made the system.

Oh please. This is utter bullshit.

I can get a service contract from Bull or Olivetti or most other service
organization easier than I can for a clone.

>The cases aren't standard.

Please stop with the misinformation. This is getting ridiculous.

One can buy a name-brand PC with either a standard chassis, or a
non-standard one. The "non-standard" ones are useful for people who
don't have gobs of space on their desktops or have specialized
requirements.

The difference is, with a name-brand, one has a choice. With a clone
there isn't.

>In a clone, when you
>want to upgrade from a 386sx to a 486DX, you pull the motherboard out (and
>sell it) and drop in a 486. You can't do that with most brand name boards,

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I just did exactly this
last month in an Everex. Most systems are capable of generic motherboard
replacement, except for the specialized ones with small footprints.

Besides, you'll notice that there's more to upgrading a PC than just
upgrading the CPU. The memory has to be faster (throw away all those
80ns SIMMs), and you need to reduce that I/O bottleneck (goodbye IDE
hard disk). You might also need a new power supply for all these new
components.

What's left? keyboard, floppies, case and video. Wow.

>Besides, I haven't seen any name brand machines that compare
>to a similiarly priced clone unless they are really stripped down.

Which proves you haven't been shopping. When all you look for are
clones, and admit to biases that you won't even look at the name-brand
stuff, it follows that you wouldn't even know if they were competitive.

>>I have totally given up on clone makers. Because of the nature of the
>>business, they generally belong to the motherboard-of-the-month club,
>>and next year when something goes wrong, they may not even have the
>>jumper-pin settings for the one you buy today, let alone know how to
>>service it.
>
>I guess you have had some bad experiences with clone dealers.

Turn it around. Between myself, my friend and clients, I haven't known
a single user who tried to save a few bucks on clones who didn't
eventually come to grief because of it.

>Besides, how many name brand companies do you know of that can
>answer many technical questions?

All of the ones I deal with. There are good name brands and there are
bad ones. The good ones, the ones I deal with, have technical support
lines staffed by multiple people who know what they're talking about,
have access to all schematics, know exactly what BIOS is in their
motherboards, and have warehouses of spare parts. Moreover, they supply
me with diagnostic softrware that goes well beyond the conventional
stuff, that can answer many of the technical questions before I ever
have to get to a phone. Because they don't change motherboards at whim,
they can plan ahead to get to know the designs they use.

>A lot of name brand systems use clone parts
>and even motherboards anyways,

Which brings me back to the line I asked you to recall earlier,

    >Because. Name brand computers don't use standard parts.

Please pick one vague overgeneralization and try to defend that one, OK?

>And by their nature they aren't usually a deal.

Please explain "by their nature". I honestly don't know what you mean.
If this is another broad generalization, please back it up with
something. Anything.

>At least when you get a clone it's
>usually reasonably new stuff, with name brand stuff, because they are trying
>to remain consistant,

Consistant? How many clone makers have used the same 386sx motherboard
for the last 18 months in all of their systems?

>their stuff is usually outdated as well as being
>overpriced.

I see. Please tell me what the difference is between a year-old 386DX/33
and a brand new one.

>Besides, if you are smart, you will get the manuals for the
>motherboard and other important parts, so the dealer doesn't have to.

That's assuming the vendor can (or is willing to) give you one. What
makes you think all of them do?

>Yeah well it's always the name brand systems that you are reading about that
>need fixes and adjustments.

Examples, please. This is another crock.

>It's always the name brand systems that do weird things (in the name
>of competition) that make them incompatible.

There are good name brands and bad ones. To me, the bad ones are bad not
because their stuff doesn't work, but because they re-invent wheels that
are not compatible with anything else. The two biggest offenders, IBM
and Compaq, are definitely to be avoided.

But most of the "second-tier" name brands (Dell, Everex, Gateway, Zeos,
AST, ALR, NEC, Acer, there are hundreds) do not re-invent wheels.
They're just solid basic equipment.

>It wasn't the clones that came
>out with shadow ram, ram caching, and so on in the first place, it was the
>name brand systems and motherboard manufacturers. The clones generally just
>clone things.

And sometimes they don't do a very good job of it.

>Ah, can you swap the motherboard for a faster one?

Yes. Next question.

>Can you fit lots of drives in it?

Depends on the enclosure. If you want a laptop, no.
If you want a case like the Everex Cube, you have *eight* drive bays,
all with adequate ventilation and power, and which can be installed or
removed from the system with thumbscrews. And there are lots of desktop
and tower configurations in between. Next question.

How many CPUs can you fit in a clone?

>Can you easily upgrade the memory using standard SIMMS?

Sigh. Yes. If you had a clue, you'd know that all major name brands
switched to SIMMS quite a while ago.

>Can you easily
>upgrade the video card to a standard one?

Um, yes, you plug one out and plug the other one in. How else do you do it?

>Do you have enough slots for a sound
>card, video card, i/o card, scsi card, and midi card? 

Like with drive bays, there's quite a range. From 0 slots (in a laptop)
to 12 full EISA slots. And lots in between.

>>>Besides, most of the people who work at Future Shop don't really seem to know
>>>what they are talking about.
>>
>>Who gives a damn?
>
>But you just said  awhile ago that it's important! Make up your mind!

Where did I say it was important for everyone to have knowledgeable sale
staff? I suggest that there's absolutely no *necessary* relationship
between clone hardware and skilled salespeople. Both have their good and
bad. Depending on the needs of the customer, you go to a place with
skilled staff, or you go to a place that doesn't have to hire skilled
staff and sells stuff for less.

>Yes, that's right, and that's not something you're going to have to call all
>the computer stores for tech support. Believe me, I've tried to shop at Future
>Shop, but they can't answer questions.

That's what feature brochures are for. The name-brand stuff all have
brochures printed for them, describing their features in detail. Use them. 
Even Future Shop has brochures.

>At the office where I work someone
>insisted on buying a Mac from them (shudder) and there was no support. The
>people are not only technicaly uninformed, they are too busy because Future
>Shop only cares about volume.

That's right. Support costs money. You want a place that'll hold your
hand, that costs extra. Why do you seem surprised by this?

>I bet if you had called around you could have
>gotten a better price anyways.

Then pay up on your bet. I spent four days calling around and FutureShop
had the best price.

>I definatley know what I want, and it's not a problem for me. But most people
>don't know what they want, and they want to buy a computer from someone who
>can answer questions, and they want something they can upgrade in the future,
>can have repaired reasonably. 

What happens is that people walk into a store with skilled staff and
more expensive prices, pump the staff for information, then buy
mail-order.

They deserve what they get.

Support costs money.

>What's so special about Dell? Nothing. They put their hardware together well,

If that reason isn't *paramount* to you then I don't know what is.

>but they are using standard parts, standard motherboards, video cards, etc.

Of their own design, put together using their own quality control,
backed by their own reputation and cost-to-coast on-site awrranty.

It's doesn't just meet the standard, it exceeds it.

>They are just using  good, standard parts, just like any other dealer, except
>they put it in their own special case (that doesn't usually fit standard
>motherboards).

You really don't know about this stuff, do you? Have you ever looked
inside a Dell system? Do you know for sure that a standard motherboard
could't fit in the Dell systems my client is using?

How much would you like to bet? I could use some spare cash.

>If you are a knowledgeable shopper, you can get a clone that
>has the exact same parts as a Dell,

Not possible. Dell makes their own motherbaords, and many other components.
Standard stuff, but to their own quality specifications.

>Paying a price premium for a system that will be worth a half
>or a third of it's original value without being upgradeable, and one that you
>are basically stuck with if the dealer goes out of business.. just doesn't
>make sense.

If your NEC dealer goes out of business, NEC will still support its
warranty.

If you Clone-a-tron dealer goes out of business, do you really think
anyone else will support its warranty? Dream on.

Not to mention the far greater likelyhood of Clone-a-tron going out of
business than NEC.

>I'm really sorry that you've obviously had some bad experiences with clones in
>the past, Evan. But I haven't, I've used a lot of clone stuff, and I support a
>lot of it at work.

There are good name brands and bad name brands.

At least if you have a bad experience with one you can avoid it at a
later date. If there's no label on the computer, if you're not the one
who bought it, what do you know what to avoid?

In this business, reputation counts for something. Good or bad.

-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
    Was "Trouble" (from the Broadway Show, Music Man) the first rap song?
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