HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amcmicha@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrew McMichael)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg,talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: AR Prisoners in need of your written support
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:17:19 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.

In article <swood.720929493@vela> swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG) writes:
>
>Correction.  "poaching" is a form of ILLEGAL hunting.  In that context I
>will accept the statement.
>
>It is the same as saying that some gun use is responsible in nature, but guns
>and the second ammendment should be eliminated because of non-responsible,
>illegal gun use.  Instead of going after the perpatratures of the problem,
>they are going after the non-perpatrators.
>Take away guns and only outlaws will have guns.  Take away hunting and only
>poachers will hunt.  It will not stop the problem situations.  Only stop
>the responsible use of such activities and resources.
>

You had me until you started with the NRA drivel.  While I agree
that it is mainly <poachers> vs. <hunters>  that are responsible
for the population losses of rare game in the last 10-20 years,
saying that 'Take away guns and only outlaws will have guns' is 
nonsense.  Every time you catch someone with a weapon, take it
away and destroy it.  Viola. One less killing machine.



-- 
Andrew McMichael
George Mason University
Fairfax, Va
amcmicha@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg,talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: AR Prisoners in need of your written support
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:37:11 GMT

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

`(Scott Wood - EVENSONG) writes:

`>spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
`>
`>`The government programs to erdicate mountain lions consisted
`>`of HUNTING them for a bounty.
`>
`>Market hunters - not sport, meat OR recreational hunters (ie the ones that I
`>see being targeted by AR-head groups)
`>
`>`"poaching" is also a form of HUNTING.
`>
`>Correction.  "poaching" is a form of ILLEGAL hunting.  In that context I
`>will accept the statement.

`The original point being debated was whether hunters
`were decimating wildlife populations.  

`"Legal hunters, operating only in the very recent past, in a
`jurisdiction with strict laws protecting wildlife 
`populations are NOT decimating wildlife populations".

Recent past.  Otherwise known as the present!  Catch up with the times.
There have been good and bad in everything since the start of time.  Some
times more of good sometimes more of bad.  I am not mad at the fact that
these people are mad about decimated populations.  I am mad at decimated
populations.  I constantly strive to make sure problems with populations
related to hunting, market hunting, sport hunting or even poaching are
reduced and if not eliminated.  I feel very guilty that those associated
with hunting were responsible in part for the demise of the passenger
pigeon and the Labrador Duck.

However, instead of going after the wronge do-ers -  The poachers, and the
careless non-responsible hunters (as hunters themselves do) they are instead
going after hunting in general - specifically targeting the legitimate ones.
I have never seen a poacher get picketted in a local game area, nor have I
ever heard of such getting press.

You can say what you want about whether or not Poacher's and professional
hunters should be grouped in with citizen hunters, but the AR approaches
in the applicable sense have precluded poachers and pro's as much as the
hunters attempt to exclude the likes of which from their ranks and/or
association.

You can not yell at common bank robbers for the few that choose to rob
banks, or the average driver for the couple that choose to drive drunk.
You go after the bank robber or the drunk driver.  So why go after
responsible hunters for the acts of a few that the hunters would sooner
be without in the first place!

swood
-- 
  Nov. 08   Closing day of Duck/Waterfowl season (upper L.P. of Michigan)
  Nov. 11   Closing day of Michigan Quail hunting
  Nov. 12   Closing day of early Waterfowl season (lower L.P.)
 Currently  Rabbit, squirrel and bird season are still alive and well!
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean Philip Engelson)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Get real, Abhay!
Date: 11 Nov 1992 17:02:10 -0500
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: stove.ai.cs.yale.edu


In article <1992Nov11.055656.29881@abo.fi>, abulsari@aton.abo.fi (A. Bulsari) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov10.154835.25333@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
|> >In article <1992Nov10.070847.13173@abo.fi> abulsari@aton.abo.fi writes:
|> >>The result of last several postings is a consensus - 
|> >
|> >Who did you poll to arrive at this general agreement?  You didn't         
|> >contact me.
|> 
|> You don't count.

I didn't want to join this flame-fest, but this is just too much.  In other
words, anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't count.  Rather easy to rack up
a consensus that way, don't you think?

As far as all of these superlatives being thrown about here and Abhay's (and
others') seeming desire to remove all disagreement and criticism from
rec.food.veg (turning it into some sort of fuzzy new-age fascist state), I have
the following to say.  I have found some of Ted's articles interesting.  At the
same time, I have found Steve Dyer's articles interesting; his criticisms are
generally to the point and should be dealt with.  The thing is, if your
expressed opinions (regarding radical veganism, alternative medicine, crystal
healing, what have you) cannot stand up to legitimate criticism, perhaps you
should keep them to yourself.  Indeed, ad hominem attacks should have no place
here on the net and it is a fact that they occur distressingly often.  I see no
answer to that; certainly the cure of stopping all disagreement is far worse
than the disease.

	-Sean-

PS: For the benefit of the bean-counters, I'm a vegetarian.
-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520
From: jm67@hydra.gatech.edu (MURRAY,JEFFREY P)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Conclusions about Ted Altar
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:00:58 GMT
	<1992Nov11.194916.20513@u.washington.edu>
	<1992Nov12.063839.20343@abo.fi>
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
In-reply-to: abulsari@abo.fi's message of 12 Nov 92 06:38:39 GMT


>You people are really humour impaired.   You have  to  see a smiley or
>hear someone laughing before you know that it was supposed to be joke.
>I don't use  smileys and expect people to understand a joke as a joke,
>which is clearly the case here.  Who am I to decide who counts and who
>does not ?
>
>It  takes some tenacity  to survive  on  this newsgroup  and sensitive
>people will have a hard time unless they  learn  to ignore things they
>don't like or don't understand. 
>
>Abhay
>

Abhay,

   As a courtesy to other netters whose life experiences may differ
from your own, and whose interpretations of postings intended to
be in jest may not be entirely in synch with your own, might I
suggest that you _start_ using smileys? They do tend to clarify
a person's meaning; forgive me, but I certainly do not agree with
you that what might be intended as a joke is always "clearly"
a joke.

   This is not meant as a personal criticism; it is just that
something as simple as smiley can prevent much misunderstanding.
On _this_ newsgroup especially, we have a hard enough time trying
to accept people's intended differences without adding to that the
non-intended ones.

   Jeef
--
MURRAY,JEFFREY P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jm67
Internet: jm67@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (james.w.lacey)
Subject: Re: Vegitarian Traveling
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:56:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.205123.8632@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dwalker@bnr.ca (David Walker) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.215110.26327@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>, djordan@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (David Jordan) writes:
>|> Eric,
>|> 
>|> The publishers of *Vegetarian Times* publish a *Guide to Natural
>|> Food Restuarants in North America*.  I have used it often.  It is
>|> a life saver for a vegan.  It is getting out of date.  Some restuarants
>|> have closed.  It doesn't always tell you about the atmosphere of
>|> a place.  
>|>
>|> ....
>
>Since we're always completely up-to-date here on the net, someone (me??)
>should probably volunteer to collect a list of all good veggie restaurants
>around the planet, based on our fellow netters' experiences.
>
>This list could be posted periodically to r.f.v and news.answers.
>It could be a real life-saver (literally!) and, best of all, would be free!! 
>
>Opinions?
>..

We had this discusion on r.f.v. at least a year ago.
Those in favor (me included) thought that using r.f.v.
would be ideal.  Those against thought it would use
up too much space and that ftp would be a better method.
(Those against won and/or those for lost interest.)

I dont think that a listing would have to be any longer
than the FAQ, especially if the info is kept to
the basics: name, address, city, hours, price range $/$$/$$$,
and vegan/vegetarian/vegetarian-friendly (since some macro places
serve fish).


-- 
     Jim Lacey  --  my own opinions    
     email:  att!cbnewsl!jlacey  or  jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
     D'ou venons-nous? Que sommes-nous? Ou allons-nous?
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jereese@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jean reese)
Subject: Butter Bean Soup
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:45:08 GMT


Butter Bean Soup
================

1 pound butter beans
8 cups water
1 tbsp dried parsley
2 stalks celery, chopped
1/8 teaspoon ground thyme
1/4 cup turnip, diced
1 1/2 tbsps dried lentil beans
1 1 pound can stewed tomatoes
3 tsp veg bouillon
1 large onion, chopped
1/2 tsp sweet basil
1 clove garlic, minced
1 bay leaf
s&p to taste

Soak dried beans in water overnight, drain.

In a large pot, pour eight cups fresh water.  Add all ingredients to water
and cook slowly (simmer) about two hours or until bean skins begin to fall
off. Remove bay leaf before serving. Serves 6-8.


Jean

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	"It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living by its 
	purely physical effect on the human temperament would most 
	beneficially influence the lot of mankind." - Albert Einstein
From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Freezing Tofu
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:31:51 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Yet Another Graphics Project, Bellevue, WA

In article <1992Nov7.005611.10616@sequent.com> mkay@sequent.com (Mary Kay Petersen) writes:
>
>Freezing/thawing does change the texture.  Imagine trying to grate
>raw tofu.  It can actually be done after freezing/thawing!  I'm not
>sure how to describe the texture; sort of sponge-like.  One tip
>
I agree that the texture turns sponge-like.  It took me a little while to get
used to the texture, but it was worth it because one thing frozen/thawed/
squeezed tofu does is absorb sauces and marinades amazingly well.  
------
Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // or uunet!bcstec!voodoo!das 
                             ^^^^ please note addition to address 
                 "Hatred is not a family value"
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Leslie Bishko)
Subject: Re: Conclusions about ..., Farewell, and Hummus
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:07:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.194916.20513@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
>
>Before I go (farewell, cruel vegetarians! :-))......
>

Farewell Barbara, and thanks for all the asparagus!

To make hummus, no FLAMES are required!

....one of my favorite things about hummus is that every single 
variation I've tasted has always been a palette pleaser!  Here's my
approach, combined with accompaniments inspired by my dear friends 
C. and M.G.S. 

	Tahini -- 1/4 to 1/2 cup
	Lemon Juice
	Garbonzos (I think the average can is 12-16 oz.?)
	Garlic
	Soy sauce
	Cumin
	Olive oil
	Small onion
	Shelled Pistachios
	Cilantro
	Red Pepper

Strain garbonzos and reserve liquid.  Puree in blender, adding in
just enough liquid to puree without making it too runny.  Mix 1 part
tahini with 1 part lemon juice - add to garbonzos to desired
consistency.  (I go for thick and chunky.)  Add 1-2 cloves minced
garlic, soy sauce and cumin to taste.  Spread into shallow dish or
glass pie pan.

Sautee onions in olive oil until browned.  Add pistachios, or any
other nuts such as cashews, peanuts.  Drizzle the olive oil - onions
- nuts over the hummus.  Sprinkle with red pepper and coursely
chopped fresh cilantro.  
-- 
Leslie Bishko
leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: Conclusions about Ted Altar
Summary: conclusions about Abhay Bulsari 
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:49:16 GMT


Abhay Bulsari informs me 

>You don't count.


I see. 

Thank you for confirming what I've suspected about you all along. 


Before I go (farewell, cruel vegetarians! :-)), let me thank those 
of you who have shared interesting recipes and cooking information 
that has allowed me to help my partner maintain his vegetarian 
diet while sharing a kitchen with an omnivore.  As small recompense, 
here's one of the best asparagus dishes I've ever tasted.  I have 
permission to post it. 

(From _Simply Healthy_, a cookbook from the Washington state Group 
Health Cooperative.  The recipe is from Deborah Ritchey of Spokane) 

ASPARAGUS WITH TOMATO & BLUE CHEESE 

3 green onions, chopped
1 large tomato, seeded and chopped
3 cloves garlic, pressed or minced 
1/3 cup dry white wine
3 tablespoons blue cheese, crumbled 
1-1/2 to 2 pounds asparagus, fibrous ends removed; 
	washed but leaving some moisture on spears 
3 teaspoons olive oil

Over medium heat in large skillet, add 2 teaspoons of olive oil. 
Add green onions and garlic, and saute 1 minute.  Turn up heat 
to medium high and add wine, reduce liquid by one half.  Add 
tomatoes and cook until heated through.  Remove from skillet and 
set aside, keeping warm.  Reduce heat to medium. 

Add the remaining teaspoon olive oil to skillet, and then add 
asparagus.  Cover.  Cook 5 to 7 minutes (depending on thickness 
of spears) until tender crisp, shaking skillet occasionally to 
stir. 

Remove asparagus to serving dish, pour tomato mixture across 
spears and sprinkle blue cheese over mixture.  Serve immediately. 

Nutritional Analysis (per serving -- four servings)
Calories.........108		Carbohydrates......10.1 g
Total fat.......6.02 g		Dietary fiber......3.48 g
Protein.........6.44 g		Cholesterol........5.24 mg
Sodium..........108 mg


--Barbara 
>>
>
>


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: llarsen%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Loren Larsen)
Subject: Re: The protein myth
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:47:10 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Nov11.074508.9068@abo.fi> abulsari@aton.abo.fi writes:
>
>I got this from Michael Traub. This post is somewhat long.
>
>	The  sixth key  to living  health is  the protein  myth.
>Have  you ever  heard it  said that if you tell a big-enough lie
>loud enough and long enough, sooner or later people will believe
>you? Welcome to  the wonderful world of protein.   No bigger lie
>has ever  been told  than the  one that  human beings  require a
>high-protein diet to maintain optimum health and well-being.

It should be noted that this posting is basically a transcription of the
"Living Health" seminar given by Tony Robbins.  It has been deliberately
modified to hide this fact unfortunately.  The entire tape and book of
Living Health can be purchased from Robbins Research for ~$179.  It contains
a very extensive bibliography where support for all these "radical" claims
can be found.  I'm not trying to write an ad for the program, but I have it,
I use it and have been VERY happy with it.

Loren



Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: don@helix.nih.gov (donald seto)
Subject: Re: Godhead or Meathead?
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:55:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.001319.2390@unlv.edu> robert@unlv.edu (Robert Cray) writes:
>In article <altar.720901243@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:
>>Peter Olin cites:
>>
>>Then by all means we should be eating insects and grubs.  Maybe
>>we should also recycle our deceased bodies for animal feed.
>>I think you might agree.
>
>I know a Chinese person who likes wharf roaches.  Not eating insects
>is just a cultural thing, with all the other things people eat like
>salmon eggs (or regular eggs for that matter), liver, etc. insects are
>not all that unusual.  If you are going to eat any part of an animal,
>eating all of it is the ecologically sound thing to do.
>
>				--robert
>--
>robert@cs.unlv.edu

Get outta here!  Are you implying that eating roaches is a chinese
cultural thing?  Because of all the chinese people I know, none eat
roaches or anyother kind of insects.  In fact, the only insects eaten
regularly seem to be termites (high protein and no shell).  
So, is it ecologically sound to eat the whole of a plant...even the
noxious parts, like potato skins?

Re: first paragraph, haven't you heard of soylant green?   ;^)

--
don@helix.nih.gov
301-402-0580   Bldg10/Rm8D14    NIDDK/NIH       Bethesda, MD  20892
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: coleman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michele Coleman)
Subject: cinnamon apples
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 03:18:57 GMT

     Here's a simple recipe and I admit the idea isn't very original, but
I enjoyed it:

     Core and chop 2 apples (with or without peels).  Put the chunks in a
microwave-safe container.  Sprinkle with ground cinnamon.  Add a very
small amount (less than 1 teaspoon) of margarine.  Microwave until apples
are hot and soft, stirring once or twice to distribute margarine and
cinnamon.
     Makes two servings.  I ate half with dinner, and had the rest for
lunch the next day on a toasted, fat-free waffle.

--Michele Coleman
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: debra@creatures.cs.vt.edu (Debra Potts)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Cravings
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:03:32 GMT

Rosemary Waigh writes:
>
>I found it extremely helpful when I stopped eating meat to visualize
>a slaughterhouse whenever I was offered meat.  If you are becomming veg
>for health reasons, perhaps you could come up with a similarly unpleasant
>visualization of the health risks of meat you are trying to avoid.
>
>The *most* helpful thing though was to find some good cookbooks!
>
>It also helps to join a vegetarian group if you haven't already.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Ro

		All these are great ideas, Ro.  Radical as this may
		sound, though, I found one of the best ways to control
		any meat cravings I had when turning veg (although they
		were pretty few and far between for me, I must admit) was
		to *give in* to the craving.

		I mean, after you've been without meat for a good period
		of time and--per that absolutely terrific suggestion about
		good cookbooks--have been making fun and tasty and whole-
		some meals, somehow I never found the taste of the meat
		product to be worth my "fantasy" cravings.

		Actually, on the few occasions when I did "give in" early
		on, I usually couldn't finish the product--it just tasted
		gross.  Then, eventually, believe it or not, without even
		trying to visualize anything, I kept getting pictures in
		my mind every time I smelled meat cooking of smoldering
		battlefields and *human* carnage (I mean flesh is flesh is
		flesh, and that is what finally drove it home...the thought
		of dining on homo-erectus i'd think would be gross to the
		most ardent pork chop afficionado!)

		As someone recently posted in this group, I believe, there is
		something about finally making that connection between what
		is walking around and what is on your plate that gives you
		all the motivation you will ever need to look to the friendly
		bean and grain!  (not to mention the fine example of G.B. Shaw's		long and fruitful life!)

debbie
	
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.)
Subject: Re: AR Prisoners in need of your written support
Organization: the Bear Creek Tinkerer's Society and Social Club
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 16:18:53 GMT

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

>The point appears to be true, in that the counter-arguments
>all seem to involve redefining who a "hunter" is in a
>very narrow sense.

>Something like:

>"Legal hunters, operating only in the very recent past, in a
>jurisdiction with strict laws protecting wildlife 
>populations are NOT decimating wildlife populations".

>This I'll go along with.  BFD.  It's basically tautological.

There, was that so difficult?

Now, the REAL first point of this discussion was that UNLIKE hunters, the
animal rights whackos don't divorce themselves from the brain-dead amoungst
thier ranks - instead, they post messages asking us to send best wishes to
a bunch of convicted terrorists and arsonists.  Why is that, do you suppose?

-- 
Todd++;
------------------
todd@refrig.dixie.com
**** I voted with the majority this past election - AGAINST Clinton! ****
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: Hinding.1@nd.edu ()
Subject: Re: Godhead or Meathead?
Followup-To: rec.food.veg
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:28:11 GMT

In article <altar.720900520@sfu.ca>, altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
wrote:
> 
> olin@sics.se (Peter Olin) writes:
> 
> 
> >It might be radical, or it might not. Anyway I think there is more to
> >the world problems than people eating meat. 
> . . .

> Now, recycling waste, using more energy efficient appliances,
> and becoming a vegetarian will not solve the ecological
> problems of the planet, but they will buy us time.  The
> root problem has been and always will be, that of humn
> overpopulation.  The fact of the matter is that our human
> population of 5.5 billion people is not likely to decrease
> but only increase for some time to come.  You are looking
> at a population of some 10 billion people in the next
> 25-40 years!  Already, we are making extinct some 1,000
> species of animals every year.  Already, the planet is
> overpopulated, especially if in our more equalitarian 
> moments we would wish for everybody a material lifestyle
> that we ourselves would have.  Even now the tired planet
> cannot provide for cars, home computers, large houses
> and biannual overseas vacations for 5.5 billion people.

Do you have any specific facts to back this up, or are these "facts" based
solely on your ideological viewpoint?  I am speaking specifically of the
impossibility of providing cars, computers etc to 5.5 billion people, I
find your population statistics more reasonable; forgive me if I did not
want to take the sentence in question out of it's paragraph.

John