X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:57:07 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Seeking a Catholic Perspective

Tim King writes:

>> My goal is to demonstrate my point that confession is only meaningful to
>> the person who believes in it.  This same point can then be carried to
>> other traditions.

'Confession', to a believing Catholic, is not a 'tradition'.  It is a
direct command of Jesus Christ, given to the founders of the Catholic
Church.

Christianity "is only meaningful to the person who believes in it",
just as external observance of the Mosaic Law, the teachings of
Buddha, or the Q'uran are only meaningful to those who believe in
them.

You are asserting something that is part of the nature of faith,
that's all.

>> But I reiterate:  I am a full-fledged christian, just like you, serving the
>> same God, saved by the same grace, and redeemed by the same blood!

Tim, as far as I know, nobody has questioned that.

>> Like I said before:  Then the sacrement is not necessary for salvation.  All
>> have to do to avoid the sacrement is to not believe that it's necessary.
>> Once I do this, I've dodged the issue.  I don't have to subject myself to the
>> sacrement.

I wish you wouldn't use language like "all I have to do to avoid the
sacrement [sic]" and "I don't have to subject myself to [confession]".

You make it sound like being a Catholic is some horribly painful and
odious task.  I find it to be a joyous privilege.  Part of that
privilege is that of knowing God's grace and forgiveness in the
Sacrament of Reconciliation.  When I went to confession this past
Saturday afternoon, I was filled with joy before, during and after my
confession.  Afterwards, I felt like Jesus had embraced me as a
brother (Rom 8:29), and given me His strength and reassurance.

Unless you are an apostate Catholic or Orthodox Christian (which I
doubt), you've never experienced Sacramental confession.  Please try
not to be so negative about something you haven't personally
experienced.

>> But if a Catholic says that it isn't necessary for salvation,
>> he's called a heretic.  Or does a Catholic not fall into the "someone"
>> category?  You can say that "he should know better," but that doesn't
>> necessarily mean that he does "know better."

That heresy is formal sin (and thus capable of imputing guilt) only if
he honestly believes that Christ commanded confession, but that he
should ignore Christ's command in this matter.  Why isn't ignoring
what one believes to be Christ's command gravely sinful?

>> 1)  Please reconcile the above two paragraphs.  You say if I don't know
>> His will, God doesn't deny me heaven.  However, what I know is immaterial.
>> What I do is what's important to save me from condemnation.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I said nothing of the sort.  Romans 6:23 -- "For the *wages* of sin is
death, but the *gift* of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus Our
Lord."  We are saved by grace if we are to be saved, but condemned by
our sins, if we are to be condemned.

If you don't believe that it is possible for a Christian to fall from
grace, consider the words of St. Paul:

   It is not that I have already taken hold of [eternal life] ... but I
   ... hope that I may possess it ... Brothers, I for my part do not
   consider myself to have taken possession.
         -- Phil 3:12-13

   Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not
   to fall.
         -- 1 Cor 10:12

   No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having
   preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
         -- 1 Cor 9:27


Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	     God, the Father of Mercies,
	     By the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ,
	     Reconciled the world to Himself.

	     Through the ministry of the Church,
	     May you find pardon and peace,

	     And I absolve you of your sins,
	     + In the Name of the Father,
	     And of the Son,
	     And of the Holy Spirit.  Amen.

	     Go in peace, to love and serve the Lord.
                      -- From the liturgy of the Sacrament of Reconciliation
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU