HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting)
Subject: England Squad for 5N
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:21:48 GMT
Organization: HP, Berkshire, England
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]


The England team for the 5N will be announced in early Jan, around the 3rd
IIRR.  The squad for the training "holiday" has been announced and here's
a thoughts, I will post the complete squad when I remember to bring in the
newspaper clipping.

Neil Back has not been included.  Apparently Geoff Cooke made a statement
saying that, at 5'10", he is not of international stature.  Steve Ojomoh
of Bath was included instead, he has been playing his rugby at blindside
and has lost his first team place to John Hall, who has been included in
the squad.  Andy Robinson is also ruled out by Cooke's statement.  John Hall
has been playing v.well this season for Bath and the SW in the Divisions, 
where he got the blindside slot ahead of Mike Teague, Englands current choice.
Dean Ryan is also out.  Dean Richards is unavailable, and is now probably out.
Richard Hill is also out.

The squad:

fullback:	Webb
wings:		Underwood, Underwood, Hunter (also fullback), [another]
centres:	Guscott, Carling, Hopley, [another]
fly-halfs:	Andrew, Barnes
scrum-halfs:	Bates, Morris
hookers:	Moore, Olver
props:		Leonard, Probyn, Ubogu, Clark
locks:		Bayfield, Dooley, Johnson, [another from Bristol]
backrow:	Teague, Clarke, Ojomoh, Winterbottom, Hall, [another] 

I will update the other names when I can.

Cheers,
Graham
--
Graham Cutting
grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, England
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: (i)ANZAC  (ii) Barnes/Andrews
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:43:24 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury

ANZAC match
~~~~~~~~~~~
Alan makes some good points, which I mostly agree with.

>Mind you it looks as though the Jones boy would be the only automatic NZ choice
>in the forwards

Sad but true !

> it's possible Olo Brown could push for inclusion

Very likely.

>the choice between Sean Fitzpatrick and Phil Kearns

Very tough choice ! But the other one would certainly be in the reserves.

>Zinzan or Tim Gavin is another toss-up.

I think Zinzan is a clear favourite here. Gavin is a great #8, but ZB is about
as good, and *much* more versatile. His game has matured remarkably over the
years. His open-field tackling is awesome, and his kick-covering and clearances
are another big plus. How he manages to cover so much field amazes me. Then
again there is his smartness with quick-tap penalties.

>Slattery over Strachan.

As you say, a choice of 2nd-raters. 
But Strachan, for more varied talents (such as they are).

>Lynagh over Fox

No way.

>Horan over Little

Undoubtedly, on an individual basis. But I think the Little-Bunce combo is
superior to the Horan-Little one, so both should get in the team. Tough on Timmy.

>Campese and Tuigamala on the wings and Timu at fullback.

Almost, but as John Miller says, Tui is way too slow. Try Kirwan one more time.
Or, if we're trying out-of-positioners, what about Horan ? He's pretty damn fast.

Barnes vs Andrews
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a fascinating debate building about these two. It's not really for us
----------------------. southerners to help you lot to decide, but MHO agrees 
                      | with the majority opinion that Barnes is by far the
          \           | most convincing attacker.
           \          | 
           \\         | BUT !!  And this is a big but.
            \\        | 
             )`--')   | He has never been really tested under severe pressure.
            <  o /    | And in the world cup Andrews showed remarkable coolness 
             `\  /    | and composure in several tough matches. He scarcely put
              / /     | a foot wrong. So, considering that down-under matches
         /_,, ~~      | will be toughies, maybe Andrews is the safe choice.
        /   )         |=======================================================
        |  /          |
       /  _>    <-------- Bill Taylor         wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
      /  /            |
     /   |            |=======================================================  
    |    /            |      If anyone disagrees with anything I say,
    \___/             |    I am quite prepared not only to retract it, 
      o               |  but also to deny under oath that I ever said it.
                      |=======================================================

 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: allanc@cs.su.oz.au (Restless Wanderer)
Subject: Re: Brittish Lions
Reply-To: allanc@cluster.cs.su.oz (Restless Wanderer)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:52:48 GMT

In article <BzEzwL.I7D@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com> grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting) writes:
>
>In light of Geoff Cooke's selection criteria; How tall is Webster?

Who'd have thought that the Lions selectors would do the Australian
kickback.?
Jeff Miller,one of Australia's unsung heros ,was dropped from the National]
side(some years ago) because Dwyer and the selectors said he was too small.
Miller is 5'9" and was like a blue cattle dog around the paddock.
But Dywer reckoned that he was too small to be effective in Lineout work.
He also claimed that being so small,the Blacks would chew him up and
spit him out.(They never did,although they tried.)

5'10" Too small,christ give me  break.If he can pass the height bar at
Disneyworld for Space Mountain,then he should go(assuming he is good enough).
More power to 'little' people.......
allanc




>
>--
>Graham Cutting
>grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com
>Hewlett-Packard, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, England
From: cctr123@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Alan Murray, CSC Operations, Uni of Canty)
Subject: Re: ANZAC Match
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:50:45 GMT

In article <Bz9stJ.2uB@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>, wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
>>Can anyone in NZ tell me if Walter Little has played at fly-half?
> 
> Yes, in the world cup 3rd place match against Scotland, where he was a
> marvellous breath of fresh air, had the Scots going all ways like headless
> chooks. 

Sorry, Bill, but that was Jon Preston at first-five. Walter played at
second-five for that match.

Alan
From: Simon.J.Davies@cm.cf.ac.uk (Simon Davies)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Brittish Lions
Date: 14 Dec 92 10:40:10 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, Wales, UK

In article <Bz221G.4uG@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com>, grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting) writes:

|> Don't apologize!  But, why do you dislike the England team?  Is it personal?
|> If so, don't explain :-).  Or, is it because of the way they play?  In which
|> case I would be interested to hear (read) your views.  
|> 
|> Many people have criticized England (and rightly so!) but not always 
|> explaining their views.  I would be interested to know why folks feel 
|> that _any_ team is "boring", "brilliant.


	As you probably know, us Welsh have always had this in built
	dislike for the English as a country which includes the rugby
	team. Up to two years ago I also disliked the rugby team due to
	their very boring, kicking ten man game BUT I do accept that this
	is not the case any more and that is why I think they will make
	up the bulk of the Lions team.

|> 
|> I would agree in parts to Wales' more positive play.  I think they have 
|> certainly had to use their backs more due to a "weaker" pack.  I was
|> surprised when, against Aus, they won so much lineout ball, it seemed
|> to surprise the backs.  Shame they had Colin Stephens at fly-half.
|>

	Quite right. Cloin Stephens is quite good at club level but has
	not played one good match for his country. Jenkins has not played much 
	better either. Adrian Davies is in the squad and is far better than
	both the previously mentioned outside halves. Aled Williams, who isn't
	even in the national squad and is (I think and many others) the best 
	outside half in the British Isles. Alot of folk in Wales can't believe
	that he is not playing. He's not even included in the East v West clash
	next week.

	Hwyl Fawr,
		Simon.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Women's Rugby teams in BC
From: cctr123@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Alan Murray, CSC Operations, Uni of Canty)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:38:37 GMT
 <gael.1.0@arbo.microbiol.uwa.oz.au> <BzFFGI.3KJ@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

In article <BzFFGI.3KJ@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>, wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
> As a keen rugby follower and one-eyed kiwi patriot, I was extremely annoyed
> when NZ was beaten by USA in the final of the first women's rugby world cup!

Sorry, Bill, it was the semi-final (I've just checked with one of the girls
here who was in the NZ team) that the USA beat New Zealand 7-0. They went on to
play England in the final and beat them by a substantially larger score.

>  Second to the USA ?!  That's the *real* shock, horror !

Well according to the tournament results, third actually (just like the men),
but it should be pointed out that the draw was rigged so that one of the home
nations teams would be in the final (just like the men).

Alan
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: kehandle@unix.amherst.edu (KEITH EDWARD HANDLEY)
Subject: In Jamaica Spring Break?
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:38:09 GMT

Hi.  The Amherst College (USA) RFC will be spending spring break (approx.
March 13-21) in Jamaica in 1993.  We are hoping to find some teams to play
there, either native teams or other vacationers.  If this fits you, and
your team might like to play us, please email me at

kehandley@unix.amherst.edu

Thank you.

Keith Handley   
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting)
Subject: Re: Brittish Lions
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:43:33 GMT
Organization: HP, Berkshire, England
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

W Geake (wbg@festival.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
[stuff on Gibss deleted]
>
>I shouldn't be a Gibbs fan, as a Bath supporter living in Scotland, but
>the really impressive thing about Gibbs is the way he can look OK when
>all around him look awful.  This has occurred several times, I seem to
>remember, though don't ask me for chapter and verse.  He has much more
>imagination than W. Carling (ie can do more than smash through the line
>or chip over it), but not as much as Gregor Townsend.  I would be
>tempted to take him on the tour if only for the experience. 
>Incidentally, is it too contraversial to advocate taking a few
>developing players on tour from the (currently) less successful sides
>such as Wales and Ireland simply to prevent the idea that they are
>permanently to prop up the 5 nations table?  I think the good thing
>about the championship is that it isn't always dominated by the more
>advantaged nations, such as England, and to continue this in the face
>of the current strong England side means that as amny as possible of the
>players from the other nations must be exposed to highest quality rugby
>as often as possible.

Isn't that what international tours are for?  IMHO the `Lions tour has
to take experienced and/or skilled players.  But tried and tested players
all the same.  I don't think it is for exposing players to international
experience as it is more a recognition for the best players in the Irish
& British Isles.  On this point I am not sure how or who is making the 
selections, Cooke, McGeechan and, IIRR, Best are the management/coaches,
it would make sense to have a selection panel representative of each country.

Hopefully, selection won't be based on just players from successful sides,
the Lions pack is hardly going to be as (or at all) dominant down-under. So
players like Robert Jones will be a must.

>
>Hence I would advance the selection of Gibbs, Townsend, Nicol,
>Geogahan(?), Webster et al simply to encourage competition within
>Britain to the benefit of all.  Anyone agree?

How many will be going on tour? 30? I think there are easily 30 top players
available but I would guess that they will also be considering combinations.

In light of Geoff Cooke's selection criteria; How tall is Webster?

--
Graham Cutting
grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, England
From: G.R.Price@cm.cf.ac.uk (G Price)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Brittish Lions
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:06:11 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, Wales, UK

In article <BzD680.L44@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com>, grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting) writes:

|> >
|> >
|> >	As you probably know, us Welsh have always had this in built
|> >	dislike for the English as a country which includes the rugby
|> >	team. 
|> 
|> That's a nice generalization of 40 million people (approx.) !!!  I thought
|> that maybe in this modern age the old prejudice's would be less prevalent and
|> that people or teams would be judged on their merits.  BTW, a couple of my
|> best mates over the years are Welsh (v.much so) and I noticed no smileys in
|> your post, I guess you're serious :-(.  So what do you think of Copsey?
|> 

   
  I don't think its as serious as that. Nevertheless old habits die hard
  and the one thing a Welshmen loves is beating England, the same too for
  the Scots and Irish. Welsh antipathy for English rugby is also a class
  thing,in Wales rugby is a working class game in England a more middle
  class one.

  Copsey is crap but the best we have. Wales does not seem to produce 
  6'7 + players.  
 
          

         (Stuff deleted)


|> I have only seen small clips of Williams on Rugby Special (which
|> for my money is far too short) but he has always appeared to
|> be a solid player and capable of making breaks.  Whatever Wales do they 
|> will need a decent fly-half, they seem to have too many to choose from,
|> and the ones they have been using haven't played behind a decent pack,
|> although they have always had a decent scrum-half.  Robert Jones gives
|> the fly-half so much extra time from his passes.  
|>  



  My own opinion and that of many in Wales is that Williams is the best 
  outside half in the Uk (well probably) hes beyond question the best in 
  Wales, Alan Davies seems to have a massive blind spot over him. Wales
  showed against Australia trhat they are capable of winning ball now and 
  Williams is the best man to use it. If hes given a chance for Wales
  don't be surprised if he pops up for the Lions Guscott style.


  Gwyn
From: clive@otago.ac.nz (Clive Boock)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Women's Rugby teams in BC
Date: 15 Dec 92 08:52:11 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1992Dec13.041241.7674@honte.uleth.ca>, std_mcgill@hg.uleth.ca writes:
> 
> 	As weel, does anyone have suggestions on how to increase membership
> in a University Women's Rugby team?  It seems that rugby has a reputation
> as a violent game with overly wild parties (grin), and many women that I've
> spoken to want no part of this feral, animalistic behavior (their words,
> not mine).  Any ideas on how to change thier minds?
> 
> Michelle

   Well Michelle (this will stir things up), you could always take up a womens
sport, or perhaps one which lends itself better to either genders skill levels.
 I , despite my tolerant attitude to most other things, believe that rugby is
not a sport which should be played by women, just as I believe that netball and
synchronised swimming should not be played by men. 
  I freely acknowledge that the skills and committment shown by the top level
of womens rugby are excellent but I still think that there are certain sports,
and rugby is amongst them, which do not lend themselves to crossing the gender
barrier. 
  Just as a matter of interest is American Football played by women in North
America?

Clive H. Boock, University of Otago, New Zealand.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Subject: Re: ANZAC Match
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:48:44 GMT

>>the world cup 3rd place match against Scotland

>Sorry, Bill, but that was Jon Preston at first-five. Walter played at
>second-five for that match.

Oh God, has Altzheimer's got me already !

Are you sure about this ?  I coulda sworn it was Little at 1st 5.

Anyone else know ?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Women's Rugby teams in BC
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:19:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury

Glad to see women (and others) sticking up for women's rights to play whatever
sport they want too.  Sadly, only a little women's rugby has been shown on TV
here, which is a pity, because it's quite interesting.

Of course it's waaay behind men's rugby in talent and skills at the moment, but
that will soon change, especially if the women's teams can get help from
experienced male coaches. There should be no problem on either side. And who
knows ? One day there may even be a female coach for a men's team,(shock horror!)

>New Zealand is a country that lives and breathes rugby. Thus,
>imagine their immortal shame when asked to name the current *women's*
>world rugby champions: the United States!!! It sticks in the back of the
>throat, doesn't it?  

It certainly does !!

As a keen rugby follower and one-eyed kiwi patriot, I was extremely annoyed
when NZ was beaten by USA in the final of the first women's rugby world cup!

BOOOO !

I thirst for the time of revenge as much as I would in male rugby, women's
----------------------. netball, or any other sport where we expect
                      | to do well by right.             I confidently
          \           | predict that we soon *will* rectify this anomaly, and
           \          | the sooner the male rugby establishment lends an
           \\         | eager coaching hand to bring this about, the better.
            \\        | 
             )`--')   | Second to the USA ?!  That's the *real* shock, horror !
            <  o /    | 
             `\  /    | Come on kiwi rugby gals, this sorry state of affairs
              / /     | can't be allowed to stand !
         /_,, ~~      | 
        /   )         |=======================================================
        |  /          |
       /  _>    <-------- Bill Taylor         wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
      /  /            |
     /   |            |=======================================================  
    |    /            |      If anyone disagrees with anything I say,
    \___/             |    I am quite prepared not only to retract it, 
      o               |  but also to deny under oath that I ever said it.
                      |=======================================================
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: cctr123@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Alan Murray, CSC Operations, Uni of Canty)
Subject: Re: ANZAC Match
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:48:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.123108.13020@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au>, penglish@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Paul English) writes:
> Can anyone in NZ tell me if Walter Little has played at fly-half?

Yes. He was the regular first-five for his province, North Harbour, after the
departure of Frano Botica (what a sad loss to NZ rugby) and still plays there
sometimes. He was also used as fly-half for two of the tests against the World
XV earlier this year and against the Irish when they toured. However the AB
selectors seem to have decided that his future is at second-five.

> I'd like to see either Walter Little or Tim Horan at fly-half in preference
> to Lynagh or Fox, since I don't think Lynagh has been in good form this
> year.

I happen to like Walter at first-five and I have a strong dislike of Grant
Fox's play so I am heavily biased. Walter is an exciting instinctive player who
can make amazing breaks, tackle extremely well, and has tremendous field
coverage but even I have to admit that his kicking game leaves something to be
desired. To a large extent the choice seems to have been dictated by the type
of game the selectors have decided they want the ABs to play. I, personally,
would like to see an inside back pairing of Graeme Bachop and Walter Little
operating as Walter needs a halfback who clears the ball quickly which Strachan
does not do. We could then find room for Eroni Clarke in the backline which
would have to be a plus.

Alan
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
From: grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Graham Cutting)
Subject: Re: England Squad for 5N
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:12:38 GMT
Organization: HP, Berkshire, England
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Here's the updated list of the squad:

>
>The squad:
>
>fullback:	Webb
>wings:		Underwood, Underwood, Hunter (also fullback), O'Leary
>centres:	Guscott, Carling, Hopley, de Glanville
>fly-halfs:	Andrew, Barnes
>scrum-halfs:	Bates, Morris
>hookers:	Moore, Olver
>props:		Leonard, Probyn, Ubogu, Clark
>locks:		Bayfield, Dooley, Johnson, Blackmore
>backrow:	Teague, Clarke, Ojomoh, Winterbottom, Hall, Rodber
>

Johnson and Blackmore have been impressing at both club and division, and
Blackmore also played for Eng B against SA, having a good game.

--
Graham Cutting
grahamc@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN, England
From: G.R.Price@cm.cf.ac.uk (G Price)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Brittish Lions
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:46:32 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, Wales, UK

In article <29676@castle.ed.ac.uk>, wbg@festival.ed.ac.uk (W Geake) writes:

|> 
|> I shouldn't be a Gibbs fan, as a Bath supporter living in Scotland, but
|> the really impressive thing about Gibbs is the way he can look OK when
|> all around him look awful.  This has occurred several times, I seem to
|> remember, though don't ask me for chapter and verse.  He has much more
|> imagination than W. Carling (ie can do more than smash through the line
|> or chip over it), but not as much as Gregor Townsend.  I would be
|> tempted to take him on the tour if only for the experience. 
|> Incidentally, is it too contraversial to advocate taking a few
|> developing players on tour from the (currently) less successful sides
|> such as Wales and Ireland simply to prevent the idea that they are
|> permanently to prop up the 5 nations table?  I think the good thing
|> about the championship is that it isn't always dominated by the more
|> advantaged nations, such as England, and to continue this in the face
|> of the current strong England side means that as amny as possible of the
|> players from the other nations must be exposed to highest quality rugby
|> as often as possible.
|> 
|> Hence I would advance the selection of Gibbs, Townsend, Nicol,
|> Geogahan(?), Webster et al simply to encourage competition within
|> Britain to the benefit of all.  Anyone agree?

Gibbs, Geoghan and Webster should be in the team on merit anyway, along
with Clement,Robert Jones, Emyr Lewis, Doddie Wier and Popplewell. 
That would be eight non-English in the team let alone the squad. :) The Lions
should be selected on individual merit, a bit of politics always creeps in
but to select a squad in line with the policy of helping out the less
successful nations is not going to work. The first priority is to pick a team
to win. That means packing it with Englishmen (unfortunately). The last Lions
team won without any Irishmen after all. Start this policy of taking players 
for experience and you might end up with Colin Stephens being selected!!!

Gwyn
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby