HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: High Power Certification Programs
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:08:06 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Jul23.191835.24528@rsd0.rsd.dl.nec.com>, buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott) writes:
> I feel the NAR program is more conservative than it needs to be.  I don't feel
> that you need to demonstrate every motor power class.

Take advantage of it while you can.  The rumor is that the NFPA-standard
certification requirement may well be MORE than one flight per motor class.  
I assume the idea is to make sure you didn't just get "lucky" and that you
actually DO have some credibility with a given power level.

> I know that there was probably a great deal of debate in both organizations
> as to the proper way to go.  I don't want to re-open that particular can of
> worms.  I'm mostly curious if a sort of compromise between the two ways was
> ever brought up and what the arguments against it are (were).  Specifically,
> what about certifying every couple of power classes for the next couple of 
> classes, i.e., certify for H/I in one flight (using any of the inclusive
> motor types) then, when ready, successfully fly a J/K powered rocket to
> certify for that level of HPR.

At this point, I have to ask:  what's the rush?  Is it too much of a 
hassle to make ONE flight for every certification step?  Some people may
be able to take a flight of stairs two at a time -- but some may not.
If you're that good, you should be able to breeze through the flights,
right?  The flying is supposed to be fun anyway!  Maybe somebody else, 
though, isn't that good and needs some finer controls.

> I'm also curious as to the argument against allowing total impulse of 
> clustered models to count, rather than requiring the total impulse from a 
> single engine.  If I can build and succefully fly a rocket powered by, say, 
> 4 G42's (about 360 total impulse) I think I've demonstrated a pretty damn
> high level of competence!  What's the difference between that rocket and
> flying an I161?  You've got similar total impulse, average thrust, and 
> burn times.

Would you believe that the subject has simply never come up?  Not in my
hearing, anyway.  This certification process was proposed by Harry Stine
at the inception of the NAR HP process and has been unmodified ever since.
It's not because people have been against changing it, it's because no one
has ever asked to have it done (and also because no one is really in charge 
of worrying about it.  This last part will change in about two weeks.)
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Launchs in Florida
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:57:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1125@osprey.ukc.ac.uk>, dl2@ukc.ac.uk (Darren Lissenden) writes:
> 
> 	Are there any Rocket Clubs near Orlando in Florida.  Will there be any
> launch days during the last two weeks of September when we fly over from the
> UK so we can see some rockets with real power.

Man, are you one lucky dude!  You will be right smack in the middle of
the 1992 World Championships!  September 13-20 in Melbourne (60 miles 
south and east of Orlando).  Contact Darryl Bachman, 251 Eyland Avenue,
Succasunna NJ 07868; 201-584-1179.  Quest and the NAR are hosting a sport
launch for all comers at this event, which will include HP launching.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Launch Guides
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 06:11:25 GMT

I wrote:

: : >dlm@unislc.uucp (Dennis McCurdy) writes:
: : >Yep - a number of different systems have been used. Gary Thurible, who
: : >has launched the largest (by far) HP rocket that I know of, used a rail
: : >launcher on the back of a pickup truck which was the launch pad. A number
: : 
: : So how big was this rocket??? The largest thing I know of to date is a 
: : 12-inch scale (1:1) Patriot missile, powered by 3 RMS I's and 3 RMS K's.
: : Takeoff weight was about 150 lb. Launch pad - I don't know. The vehicle
: : was not entirely successful--it had a radio backup ejection system that
: : fired prematurely right near the end of motor burn. Lots of pieces came
: : down on 'chutes, and there was only minimal damage.
: 
: I do not have the article here, so I cannot give the statistics. However,
: it was featured on the cover of a recent "Tripolitan".  I believe it used
: something like an M engine. I have seen the videotape of the launch, the
: truck was completely obscured by the smoke from the motor. I can look it
: up if people are interested.

Here is updated information:

The rocket - named the SK3J used and N3500 motor as the main motor. It also
had mounts for 3 smaller motors - I283 'tracer' motors. The N motor was about
4 inches in diameter and 4 feet long. The throat diameter was over 1 inch.

The rocket was 22 ft 2 inches long and lift-off weight was 249 pounds. Total
impulse was 17,499 NS. Maximum diameter was 20.25 inches.

The flight and ejection were perfect. The only damage was to the nose cone,
due to the 50 pounds of sand ballast not completely draining out on the way
down.

The launch was written up in the Aug/Sept 91 issue of the Tripolitan.

Bill
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Rocketry group in the DC Metro area?
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:42:55 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <14660@umd5.umd.edu>, wildstar@moeng2.minc.umd.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
> So, first off, are there any established model or high-power rocketry
> groups in the Washington, DC area?  We are quite near Rockville, and
> rather at a loss for places to fly.

You can contact NARHAMS c/o Ed Pearson, 301-577-7775.

Another club in the area (Fairfax County VA) is NOVAAR, c/o Ken Brown,
703-451-2808.

> I was wondering of any of you folks had some ideas, suggestions, or
> pointers on just about any of the topics above.  Does the NAR have a
> youth program, or related materials?  Has anyone out there done
> something similar?

We have a "NARTREK" program that may do something for you.  It's a
program of graduated skill levels, where you earn patches after
achieving certain types of successful flights.  It starts off with
easy things like 30-second streamer duration, and goes all the way
up to original research work.  You can get information and a membership
packet by writing to NAR Headquarters at 71331.2506@compuserve.com.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Bill Lewis (was: NAR and Tripoli)
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:33:54 GMT
Organization: Taniwha Systems Design

In article <1992Jul24.204000.14598@cs.ucf.edu> dlw@engr.ucf.edu (Chip Wuerz) writes:
>I am posting this information for Bill Lewis.  I think that he would
>make a great candidate for this years Tripoli Board of Directors.
>As it stands we have three offices open and only three people are running,
>one of which is ANTI-NAR.  

I second this - get your votes in RIGHT NOW, it may already be too late.
Not mentioned in you article is that Bill is instrumental in the organizing
of LDRS XI (he's prefect of the host prefecture) as well as the accompanying
BALLS launch

	Paul

-- 
Paul Campbell    UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul     AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P

	"'Potato', not 'Potatoe'"
		Bart Simpson - on the blackboard 6/25/92
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Clear fins
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:08:49 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <1992Jul28.155419.24157@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rbs@cyclops.micr.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Sisk) writes:
>In article <539@rml.UUCP> jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty) writes:
>>My Titan model that I'm preparing for NARAM (mentioned yesterday) has
>>clear fins to "retain scale appearance". They are quite wimpy and flop 
>>around a lot. 
>
>Instead of plastic how about a thin piece of plexiglass?  It is more stiff
>than thin plastic, however it weighs a lot more.

A good idea, but for this model, as I said, tail weight is a *major*
consideration (which is why the fins are so big and wimpy). I have
ideas cooking for other finless scale models coming up, so I'll file
this one away under "good ideas".

- Jack


=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||       "Harold! You idiot! Those were my mother's feathers!"             ||
||                       - Amelia Bissonnet, _It's a Gift_                 ||
=============================================================================
From: hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: NAR Renewal for BAR.
Summary: What will I get?
Date: 28 Jul 1992 23:12:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston

I just renewed my NAR membership after a 18 year lapse.  What I got in
the mail was my ID card and a list of sections.  Nothing else.  I know
that the NAR is a volunteer organization, but I expected at least a
"Welcome to the NAR" letter.  Will the rest follow later?  I expected to
get a Pink Book, info on NARTS, etc.


Inquiring minds want to know.

-- 
| Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
| hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov    SpokesPersonp(Me,or(NASA,LESC)) = NIL
|   **** Papoon for President! You Know He's Not Insane!! ****
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Tube Size/Stability questions
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:35:46 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <14pnqiINNk6u@runamok.hal.COM>, chuckh@hal.COM (Chuck Heron) writes:
> I've got several fairly basic questions:

> 1) How does tube length affect the CP and stability?
> Increased length would push the CG forward, but how would the CP change?

It goes forward.

> Would it move forward as much as the CG or are there advantages to
> having long rockets?

It depends on the weight and diameter of the tube.  A massless, wide
tube would shift the CP more than the CG.  A lead dowel, the opposite.

> 2) What effect does tube width have on stability?

The wider the tube, the more it affects the CP.  Note that for a
uniform body tube, the wide tube at the bottom of your rocket will
balance things out for the most part.  However, something like a
Sizzler with a payload section made out of a Quaker Oats box will
have stability problems.  (Don't laugh, this was a REAL-LIFE example!)

> 3) Would a multi-diameter body, (thinner tube in front) push the
> CP back due to increased surface area toward the rear?

The CP would be back further than for a rocket of identical height
and made entirely of the larger tube.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Pinkbook help needed
Date: 27 Jul 92 04:25:19 GMT
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd., Livermore, CA

I need some help...fast!

I was talking with Bob Sanford about my entry for NARAM coming
up. I'm entering my Titan model in Super Scale and he was
reading off a list of conditions for the entry that I was
not aware of. When he said that it's all in the Pink Book I
told him that I never received one when I joined. "Oops," was
his reply.

Anyway, I would be eternally grateful if someone with a Pink
Book and access to a fax machine would copy the section on
Super Scale and Sport Scale and fax them to the number in my
.sig below. There's a fax switch on that line which works >95%
of the time, but if your's is an old machine (or you dial
holding the handset) it won't generate the trigger tones and
you'll have to manually switch it by entering a #4 (that's
"pound" 4) when you hear the answering machine pick up.

Thanks so much in advance,

- Jack


=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||       "Harold! You idiot! Those were my mother's feathers!"             ||
||                       - Amelia Bissonnet, _It's a Gift_                 ||
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: altitude records (added reference and more info)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:49:49 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1992Jul23.130706.29220@cs.ucf.edu> dlw@engr.ucf.edu (Chip Wuerz) writes:
>But, the two or more stage rockets have an advantage in that they can
>drop off a lot of weight.  Now looking back on professional 
>history, has any rocket made it to orbit using a single stage configuration?

Not quite.  The 1.5-stage Atlas has made orbit several times, including all
of the Mercury orbital missions.

(1.5 stages?!?  That's what they call it.  Atlas has three engines and very
lightweight tanks.  Partway up, it drops two of the engines and associated
hardware, but keeps the tanks.)

If the SSTO, aka Delta Clipper, project gets funding for its full-scale
prototype... and it works... that will be a fully-reusable single-stage
orbital spaceship.
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: pfeiffer@nmsu.edu (Joe Pfeiffer)
Subject: Re: Astro-Blaster Glider under construction: questions
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:14:11 GMT

In article <5026@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:

   In article <9yamx_a.tstark@netcom.com>, tstark@netcom.com (Timothy Stark) writes:
   >      Help! I have a problem with the glider. I tried to bond the balsa
   > wood's nose but it does not work because glue is not good. What glue
   > do you recommened to bond the parts to form the nose? I tried with
   > adhesive glue but it does not work because balsa wood is too strong to
   > separate from bonding. Please reponse me as soon as possible. Thanks!

   I figured I'd leave this posting alone for a couple of days and see if
   anyone else understood it.  No one has responded.  I don't understand it
   either.  In particular, I have no idea what "balsa wood is too strong to
   separate from bonding" means.  Maybe if you re-post your questions you
   can get somebody to answer it.

I didn't answer before because I haven't seen the kit, but I suspect
you are saying the nose uses a built-up construction, which requires
warping some balsa strips over some bulkheads (standard model airplane
practice, strange for model rockets).  Anyway, if you're doing what I
think you are, and if you meant to say, ``too strong to keep from
separating before the glue cures,'' the standard answer is to hold it
together with pins while it cures.  Either sewing pins (my wife hides
them from me now), or you can buy T-shaped pins at hobby shops.

I'm also not sure what you mean by adhesive glue -- is there any other
kind?  Anyway, I'd probably epoxy it using a nice slow-setting epoxy.

-Joe.
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Subject: FAQ requests
Keywords:  FAQ
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:01:58 GMT

As we approach the first of the month it's time for me to start thinking FAQ
again.  Please email your thoughts on imptroving the FAQ, new topics to add, 
etc. (please respond directly to me).  This is the last time I'll be bugging
r.m.r about this.  The FAQ seems to have settled down at this point.  I'm just
checking to see if anyone hasn't spoken up, yet (come, come, now...don't be
shy :-)

I HAVE been paying attention to the postings, and comments made in them,
but I would like all you timid people out there to put your 2 cents (or
more) worth in.  I don't necessarily put EVERY suggestion into the FAQ, but 
when multiple people request it I try to implement the suggestion.
Get your suggestions in BEFORE NAMRAM.  I'll have the updated FAQ for you 
when you get back.

You know, everyone should have an opportunity to do an FAQ for a newsgroup.
It's really a lot of fun (despite the effort and time involved) and YOU GET
TO LEARN SO MUCH GREAT NEW ***STUFF***!!

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
NAR  13559
TRA   1785
============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: dlw@engr.ucf.edu (Chip Wuerz)
Subject: Re launches in Orlando Florida
Organization: engineering, University of Central Florida, Orlando
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:49:26 GMT

Yes their are two Tripoli organizations around Orlando.

1) Orlando Tropoli 
	Contact Walter Blanca (407) 894 - 3651

2) Tampa Tripoli
	Contact - Richard Kuzma (813) 961 - 7757
		or Dan Wilson (813) 971 - 9517


Tampa Tripoli launches are held in Zeperous Hills (near Lakeland).
	Launches first Sunday of every month.

Orlando Tripoli launches are third Sunday of every other month?

Orlando Tripoli launches are not routine, call Walter.

The Tampa Tripoli launches are wonderful - lots of big rockets.


Chip Wuerz 		Tripoli # 681
Electrical Engineering Dept.
University of Central Florida
From: soc1070
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Tripoli & NAR
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:20:00 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota CIS
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

There has been a good deal of talk about NAR & Tripoli relations,
and I thought I pass on a bit of what goes on between CMAR (NAR 
section) and the new Tripoli group in MN (I don't know if they have
picked a name yet..). 

First, when they (the Tripoli people) were forming, they were in
pretty much constant contact with us, encouraging dual membership and
the like.

Second, and this is probably the most important, there is a sever 
shortage of large flying fields in the Twin Cities metro area, where 
both groups base. Answer: we share. We plan our flights together, and
when we plan something special (like IceFlight last winter on a 
nearby lake), we invite the other group. This also cuts down on massive
doses of FAA paper work. We now have a blanke waiver for the year at
a field we both share. Maybe its the air, but Tripoli & CMAR have a 
ball together here in Minnesota.


Tim Harincar			"Always listen to experts.			
Central Minnesota 		They'll tell you what can't
Association of Rocketry		be done and why. Then do it."
soc1070@vx.acs.umn.edu			-Lazarus Long
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Rocket/Missile Reference Material?
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:38:56 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <10490010@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM>, bo@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Bo Viger) writes:
> I prefer to scratch build scale models of rockets and missiles from around
> the world, and a "Jane's Missiles" type of book (does one of these exist?)
> would help alot. Most important are complete dimensions and photos (for 
> paint scheme and decals) of the rockets.

If you insist on a book, what you want is probably Peter Alway's book
Scale Model Rocketry.  It's $22.45, but only if you can find one.  He is
talking about a second (expanded) edition, but I don't know when he's
aiming for.

For individual plans, try NAR Technical Services (73320.1253@compuserve.com).
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:08:05 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
: In article <1992Jul22.052152.16088@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: > 
: One can do such a step-up only at a sanctioned launch, where the CD is 
: authorized to act as the NAR's agent to accept your certification and
: provide you with a coupon good for the purchase of the next level of
: motor at his meet only.  Otherwise, theoretically, you could not do the
: step-up in one day because, lacking certification, no one would sell you 
: the motor you needed to do the second level.  You bring up a good point --
: when you can do multiple steps at a sanctioned launch (like a Regional
: Sport Launch, NARCON, etc.) then we could charge a flat $5, since we only
: have to do your paperwork once at HQ.  I'll float that one by Pat and
: see if I can't get an answer for you.

Thanks, C.D.

Bill
From: utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu (David M.V. Utidjian)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Tube Size/Stability questions
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:07:33 GMT
Organization: Processed People for a Processed America
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <14pnqiINNk6u@runamok.hal.COM> chuckh@hal.COM (Chuck Heron) writes:
>I've got several fairly basic questions:
>
>1) How does tube length affect the CP and stability?
>Increased length would push the CG forward, but how would the CP change?
>Would it move forward as much as the CG or are there advantages to
>having long rockets?
>

In general.....

Given that nose cones and recovery systems are fairly massive in relation
to body tubes.  CP and CG are normally measured from the front
of the rocket (tip of nose cone). Given that the model was stable to begin
with, CP aft of CG by about 1-3 body diameters or calibers.

Then as the body tube increases in length... the CP *moves* rearward,
and the CG *moves* rearward but not as quickly as the CP.
Really what is happening is that the CP and CG are getting further
away from each other in absolute terms, which is desirable.

>2) What effect does tube width have on stability?
>I would guess that the drag would increase and slow it down a little, 
>but are there other effects?
>

The drag definitely increases.... basically as the tube diameter increases
,and the model was stable to begin with, the CP and CG move closer
together.  But I don't think it is a linear relationship.

>3) Would a multi-diameter body, (thinner tube in front) push the
>CP back due to increased surface area toward the rear?
>

Yes... definitely, all other things considered equal.
One could even make a rocket with no fins in the rear but a
cone shaped "skirt", veeerrry draggy tho'.  It's been done.

>Thanks

Your welcome.

>-chuck

David Utidjian

P.S. Play around with the Barrowman eqns. and you will see what I mean.
From: bo@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Bo Viger)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:39:41 GMT
Subject: Re: HPR Attitudes Towards Model Rocketry
Organization: HP Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets

barrett@add.itg.ti.com writes:

>He did not understand and then I went on to
>explain my experiences with Aerotech models and how I had figured out
>some simple changes to the motor mount/engine-hook/baffel-system that
>would increase reliability and flexibility. 
>.
>.
>.
>I can only hope that he learned
>and was willing to pass on his FIRST HAND experience to others.

As I hope you are willing to pass on TO US!  :-)

Bo Viger
Tripoli #1864