HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Are TG people smarter than average?
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:53:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.094534.1@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>, otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (M. Otto, "Virtual Prisoner of the VAX") writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.015840.23873@vela.acs.oakland.edu>,
> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:
>> In article <1e6nq7INN5t@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>,
>>  hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) writes:
>> 
>>>One book that I would highly recommend for a broader view of "What
>>>Is A Transsexual" is:
>>>
>>>"The Uninvited Dilemma"  by Kim Elizabeth Stuart
>>>
>
>   [extraneous comments and publication info deleted]
>
>>  [extraneous quote from book also deleted]
>> Also says in there we're a very intellectually sophisticated demographic
>> group.  Comes from having a rich fantasy life, you know.
>
>One important thing to remember is that the transsexuals and other
>transgendered people you hear about tend to be a self-selected group.  It
>takes a certain level of awareness and intelligence to realize that most
>of what our society(ies) mandates about sex and gender is pure bullshit.
>It just doesn't apply to us at all (for that matter, a significant amount
>of it doesn't really apply to 90% of the general population, IMHO).  It
>takes no small amount of courage to come out far enough to ask for help,
>and allow interviews and such to be published, even if done anonymously.

A very important point.  And sorry about the apparent elitist implications of
what I had posted.  And the fact that you mention, that TS's tend to be a
self-selected group, is discussed at length in Stuart's book.  Also the fact
that the transition and life events connected to it _do_ claim casualties.

>I often wonder about how many silent sisters (or brother F->M's) are REALLY
>out there.

Would include a large number of people who rule out action entirely on
"feasibility" grounds.  Actually for about the last 10 years the feasibility
issue has been the _only_ cause for indecision for me.  I'm still leaning
against actively pursuing gender congruity, but I'm becoming aware that
inaction also has its casualties.

The fact that I'm pushing 30 seems to be influencing me.

As well as the invention of alt.transgendered!  God bless the party responsible
for that!

>*** Marge
>         __ ____ __      otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
> /|/|   / / / / / /  A virtual prisoner of the VAX     // I'm sorry; my karma
>/   |. /_/ / / /_/  at The University of North Texas \X/  ran over your dogma
>                             Denton, USA

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

 My other car used to be your father's Oldsmobile!
 My other dog used to be a cat!
 My other computer used to be an Amigo!
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (M. Otto, "Virtual Prisoner of the VAX")
Subject: Are TG people smarter than average?
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:45:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.015840.23873@vela.acs.oakland.edu>,
 w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:
> In article <1e6nq7INN5t@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>,
>  hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) writes:
> 
>>One book that I would highly recommend for a broader view of "What
>>Is A Transsexual" is:
>>
>>"The Uninvited Dilemma"  by Kim Elizabeth Stuart
>>

   [extraneous comments and publication info deleted]

>> 
>>One very interesting quote (from page 43):
>>"Among the male-to-female transsexuals I interviewed, eighty-seven
>>percent told me they had some form of sexual arousal when they dressed
>>in female clothing, at least at some point in their lives.  Others
>>continued to have sexual stimulation until they started taking
>>estrogenic hormones."
> 
> Also says in there we're a very intellectually sophisticated demographic
> group.  Comes from having a rich fantasy life, you know.

One important thing to remember is that the transsexuals and other
transgendered people you hear about tend to be a self-selected group.  It
takes a certain level of awareness and intelligence to realize that most
of what our society(ies) mandates about sex and gender is pure bullshit.
It just doesn't apply to us at all (for that matter, a significant amount
of it doesn't really apply to 90% of the general population, IMHO).  It
takes no small amount of courage to come out far enough to ask for help,
and allow interviews and such to be published, even if done anonymously.

I often wonder about how many silent sisters (or brother F->M's) are REALLY
out there.

*** Marge
         __ ____ __      otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
 /|/|   / / / / / /  A virtual prisoner of the VAX     // I'm sorry; my karma
/   |. /_/ / / /_/  at The University of North Texas \X/  ran over your dogma
                             Denton, USA
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: cddukes@c00508-119rd.eos.ncsu.edu (PakRat's Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Help
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:43:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.215922.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> cvadratv@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>The first point that most everyone who responded to my plea 
>suggested was go see a counselor. So far I've spent, oh, about one 
>and a half years, in therapy. (One reason I was so frustrated... 1.5 
>years, and I just developed enough confidence to directly discuss
>wanting to be female with my counselor.)
Unfortunately (according to my psychologist), it seems to be quite
normal for people that society expects to be male to come to grips
with much of anything with any speed with a counselor.
>
>Out of curiosity, how important is it to find a therapist with 
>experiance handling TSism? Now that we're trying to deal directly 
>with it he admitted he hasn't helped someone through this before. 
>(Though in his defense his advice has been usually good-- e.g. last 
>session his suggestion was to 'go out and talk to people who've gone 
>through this before.)
It depends, the first counselor I saw as an adult specialized in
family crisis type things.  IE someone who could handle most of the
cases produced by the Employee Assistance Programs a lot of companies
have these days.  Well he flat out stated that he didn't think he
was qualified to work with me.  Mark one up for Human Affairs
International for that.  Anyways I was then referred to a psychologist
that apparently works with sexuality and to some extent gender (Both
of which I was having troubles with when I saw the first shrink).

As I am starting to suspect that my shrink hasn't really dealt with
gender beyond transvestites, it will probably won't be long until
I start looking for referrals to another shrink.  (I'm not too
surprised about the shrink, I mean I only know of 3 other t* folks
in the area, and it hasn't been until recently that the area started
showing signs of forming a support group)
>----
>So, just how important is showing really early external signs of 
>being TS? Can one who didn't manage to adjust as a woman?

It's a good question.  Non standard thoughts of gender fill many
of my earliest memories.  But as I also had a speech impediment
when I was young, or the problems that went with it, I kept the
problem hidden from myself most of the time for fear of the additional
difficulties of going against how I was perceived.
I also directly attribute this to a couple of irrational fears I've
had when I was younger.  
>-------
>After reading many of the posts here, several ideas occured to me. 
>
>One reason for my nervousness was trying to use logic to make an 
>emotional decision. (It's hard to do a cost/benifit analysis of how 
>an action will make you feel.) 

That should have to go without saying, but alas.  It can cost up
several hundred dollars to figure that one out.

Chris/Kristine________________________________________cddukes@eos.ncsu.edu
"Ever breathe oxygen kid? Good, don't start.  Me, I'm hooked. Get it?"
						  -- Muddy Mudskipper
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Sexual preference
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:07:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.035006.15773@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, icarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Iona Carter) writes:

>  3) has some advantages, as I am (as a male) heterosexual i.e. I can only
>love women an this would allow this easily. Though I usually spend too much
>time wishing I WAS a particular girl to actually get round to asking them
>out >8( . I suppose I could be termed a "male lesbian" but I will talk about
>this another time, as I am to tired to try to figure it out (it is 3.20 am)

I look forward to hearing you talk about this at a less unghodly time...
whether with me or with the whole world.

Would alt.transgendered readers believe I have no idea what my sexual
preference is?  I'm too preoccupied with my gender identity to care at this
point.  I fantasize about lesbian sex, sex with (unspecified!!) men; even
masturbating, AS A FEMALE is something I fantasize about.  Also what I
envagine/imagine to be the simple sensual pleasures of taking a bath or wearing
a sexy pair of jeans.

About the only redeeming quality of masturbation is that it makes the erections
caused by the above fantasies go away, for a little while.  And although I've
never gotten laid with a man or woman, I know myself well enough to know I'd
have no regrets going under the knife in a virgin state.  I'm attracted to
women because something in me tells me something in them (qualities not
substances!) might rub off on me if I hang around with them a lot.  And ask a
lot of questions.  And pray a lot.

Oh enough of complaining already.  Be nice if someone told me I'm not the only
one, but only if it's the Gospel Truth!

Everyone *hug* someone on my behalf!
From: hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Wrong Surgery
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:41:24 GMT
Organization: Buried on the floor somewhere.
NNTP-Posting-Host: xanth.cs.orst.edu

edw@psg.com (Ed Wright) writes:

	[Lots of irrelevant stuff deleted]

>You forgot..... in about 8 weeks your paycehck will be diminished by about 25%
>:-(

Ummm... just another good reason to think about a Change In Career?

-- 
Dianne Kyra Hackborn            The healthy .sig:
hackbod@xanth.cs.orst.edu     - Low in saturated quotes
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne      - No artificial disclaimers
Oregon State University       - 99% splat free
From: CHOI@dirac.physics.jmu.edu (Kara Choi)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:37:04 GMT
 cc.purdue.edu> <SCG.92Nov15171945@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Organization: JMU Physics Dept.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

> and statements to be convincing.  The problem I have is that my case
> is atypical (adult onset) and in order to fit the mold (of childhood
> onset) I would have to fabricate stuff.  I won't do that, and it might
*HUGS*
	I know what you mean ... for years I maintained a fascination
with crossgender stuff, but never actually did anything about it.  It
was not until recently that I actually thought seriously about it (after
I started CDing) and going to a counselor to talk about my possible
TSism.
	It certainly makes a good case against my being a TS to not
have the background of CDing from a young age :(

			-Kara Choi
From: hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:35:42 GMT
Organization: Buried on the floor somewhere.
NNTP-Posting-Host: xanth.cs.orst.edu

ah340@yfn.ysu.edu (Michelle Fiera) writes:
>
>In a previous article, hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) says:
>
>>And as for women understanding what it is like to be a woman...
>>Well...  it doesn't really seem to matter; they just don't understand
>>why I feel the need to do this.  Most people take gender for granted,
>>and have a hard time understanding me because of that rather than any
>>idea of what a man or woman "feels like."
>
>Yeah I can see what you're saying.  I'm still having trouble trying to
>figure out exactly what is "maleness" and "femaleness".  I'm pretty sure
>I want to have a female body to match my mind, but if you asked me what
>the definition of the difference between maleness and femaleness I just
>couldn't give it to you.

*sigh*  Reminds me of a person I came out to here - she kept saying
that she didn't see how this would make any difference and that she
would still treat me the same, because she treats all of her friends
the same.  And I kept trying to explain that it _does_ make a
difference, but could never come up with an example without resorting
to stereotypes.  That was a rather frustrating conversation. :/

Oh, and I considered telling just saying that "well, at some point I
would at least like you to call me Dianne".  But I didn't quite have
the courage at that point, and I'm not sure that it would have helped
things.

-- 
Dianne Kyra Hackborn            The healthy .sig:
hackbod@xanth.cs.orst.edu     - Low in saturated quotes
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne      - No artificial disclaimers
Oregon State University       - 99% splat free
From: anonymus+3327@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: estrogen
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:22:33 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service

Can anyone comment on the effects taking 2.5mg of Premarin daily would have on a 170  
pound mildly male body.  Natural sources of estrogen such as Black cohosh, licorice root,   
Dong Quai, and sarsparilla are too slow and its hard to know how much to take. 
-- 
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From: icarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Iona Carter)
Subject: Re: Sexual preference
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 00:14:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.200748.21113@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov21.035006.15773@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, icarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Iona Carter) writes:
>
>>  3) has some advantages, as I am (as a male) heterosexual i.e. I can only
>>love women an this would allow this easily. Though I usually spend too much
>>time wishing I WAS a particular girl to actually get round to asking them
>>out >8( . I suppose I could be termed a "male lesbian" but I will talk about
>>this another time, as I am to tired to try to figure it out (it is 3.20 am)
>
>I look forward to hearing you talk about this at a less unghodly time...
>whether with me or with the whole world.

I'm still trying to figure it out .... !

>
>Would alt.transgendered readers believe I have no idea what my sexual
>preference is?  I'm too preoccupied with my gender identity to care at this
>point.  I fantasize about lesbian sex, sex with (unspecified!!) men; even
>masturbating, AS A FEMALE is something I fantasize about.  Also what I
>envagine/imagine to be the simple sensual pleasures of taking a bath or wearing
>a sexy pair of jeans.

I have no trouble in believing this at all, up until recently I had no idea
at all (even now it is only fairly vague). The simple pleasures are about the
most attractive things to me, the idea of going to the beach and wearing a
feminine swimsuit (not a bikini, I dont like them much, well not on me anyway)
without the "bulge down below" I find MOST attractive (I have never CDed in 
public before).

>
>About the only redeeming quality of masturbation is that it makes the erections
>caused by the above fantasies go away, for a little while.  And although I've
>never gotten laid with a man or woman, I know myself well enough to know I'd
>have no regrets going under the knife in a virgin state.  I'm attracted to

Sex has never been very important in life to me, but I could not honestly say
I would have no hesitation in going "under the knife" never having experienced
"proper" sex with a woman >8) But as I have fairly strict view on sex being
for only within marriage (before you flame me, i would never try to enforce my
views on this or anything else on anyone, it purely relates to how I would feel)
this presents some complications 8(

>women because something in me tells me something in them (qualities not
>substances!) might rub off on me if I hang around with them a lot.  And ask a
>lot of questions.  And pray a lot.
>
                  Keep Praying!!

(Sorry, couldnt resist the Christian plug, its not easy being Christian and
transsexual, its not easy being either individually for that matter.)

>Oh enough of complaining already.  Be nice if someone told me I'm not the only
>one, but only if it's the Gospel Truth!
>
>Everyone *hug* someone on my behalf!

Huge trans-global *hugs* all the way from the UK

Iona.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: Spouses, and more...
Followup-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: AEGIS
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:41:48 GMT

In article <BxDspK.6wD.2@cs.cmu.edu>,
anonymus+3010@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (Dawn) wrote:
> 
> I was reading the thread on spouses.  I told my girlfriend about
> my cross-dressing, and she seemed very surprised, but not upset.
> Anyway, a couple of years later, we did get married and everything
> seems to be working smoothly.
> 
> I find it much easier to be married, in some ways, because my
> wife helps me buy things I'd normally be too embarrassed to buy,
> such as dresses, shoes, etc.  (She's about my size, too :-))  Also,
> she knows places to get bargains on great clothes.
> 
> On a completely different topic:  I sent away for a catalogue
> of silicone breast forms.  Wow!  They are expensive - ranging from
> $300 to $3,500.  Is this an average price range, or a rip-off?
> 
> - D.

For personalized and GLUE ON silicon boobs, that is typical.

I have a pair a silicon boobs that feel and bounce real that
you can by from J.C. Penny for about $140-$200 a pair. The weighted
rubber ones look ok. When I has a woman to touch them (because
they say they look so real) their eyes get real wide thinking
I have implants! That makes them worth while.  Also when I have
to walk fast in heels, they have made many women change their
mind in thinking I am a woman instead of a guy.

I have read that the feel of the glue one ones is so good it
can't be described. They say it is like have a real pair!
Also, you can go bra less or wear that low cut strapless dress!

Love and hugs,

Celeste
From: hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Date: 18 Nov 1992 18:04:06 GMT
Organization: Buried on the floor somewhere.
NNTP-Posting-Host: xanth.cs.orst.edu

ah340@yfn.ysu.edu (Michelle Fiera) writes:
>
>In a previous article, hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) says:
>
>>a friend who said that she wasn't planning on going to our school
>>reunion... but if I went she would definately go...
>
>I dream of going to my HS reunion as a woman, and seeing the looks on
>everyones faces.   Hopefully by then it will be possible :)

I don't know if I particularily want to go to shock a bunch of people;
what I really want is for these people that I knew in High School to
actually know who I am.  On the other hand, I would love to take my SO
with me and startle people that way...  Dykedom was very under-
represented at that school. :)

>>and my only male friend [Matt] from High School, who at one point told
>>me he thought this was "kind of neat" and that he was looking forward
>>to it.
>
>Who tend to take it better males or females?  Do the women take it
>better becaue they already understand what it is to feel like a woman?

As I said, Matt is really the only guy that I am close to...  and I
don't really think it makes sense to distinguish males as more/less
accepting than females - it depends much more on the individual
person.

However...  Pretty much all of the SOs/husbands of my friends don't
seem to have much of a problem with it.  But I don't really know any
of them very well, so it's hard to say if that means anything.

And as for women understanding what it is like to be a woman...
Well...  it doesn't really seem to matter; they just don't understand
why I feel the need to do this.  Most people take gender for granted,
and have a hard time understanding me because of that rather than any
idea of what a man or woman "feels like."


-- 
Dianne Kyra Hackborn            The healthy .sig:
hackbod@xanth.cs.orst.edu     - Low in saturated quotes
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne      - No artificial disclaimers
Oregon State University       - 99% splat free
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: edw@psg.com (Ed Wright)
Subject: Re: Wrong Surgery
Organization: Pacific Systems Group, Portland Oregon US
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:46:52 GMT

In article <1efsogINNfsf@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) writes:
>ipacs@solomon.technet.sg (IPACS PTE LTD) writes:
>>Hello All,
>> 
>>I am really troubled by a tough decision to make. To stay as I am now or to 
>>undergo another corrective surgery.
>
>	[Story of ummm... hideous(?) :) ... hospital mix-up deleted]
>
>>Now I am really confused as I didn't really mind being a male and never 
>>thought of becoming a female until now. A stent is placed in my artificial 
>>Confused...
>>
>
>OhMyGod!!!  Not even TWO WEEKS ago, I heard about something almost
>EXACTLY like this happening to to another person!!!!  I swear, these
>SRS places are just OUT OF CONTROL!!  *One* mix-up like this is
Lots of stuff deleteds
>Oh, and did I mention that within a month you will need DDD cup bras?
>
>So, you see IPACS PTE LTD, you might as well accept what life has delt
>you.  Without your penis, you just have not choice in the matter.
>
>Best of luck.
You forgot..... in about 8 weeks your paycehck will be diminished by about 25%
:-(
-- 
 REAL RADIOS             edw@m2xenix.psg.com            GLOW IN THE DARK
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<<^^>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>No Voice>>>>>> Amateur Radio   KA9AHQ @ 28.340  <<<<<<<No Vice<<
  >>> Kshatriya Auscultating 9 Ailurophiles Hypothesizing Quodlibets <<<
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: IFGE
Followup-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: AEGIS
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:58:57 GMT

In article <BxJCoz.7L1.2@cs.cmu.edu>,
anonymus+3288@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (Jenni Callahan) wrote:
> 
> Celeste wrote:
> >My transgendered path started with a very good resource: Tapestry.
> >"The TV-TS Tapesty is a journal for all person interested in
> >crossdressing and transsexualism" it says in its title.
> >
> >
> >To order to become a member and get the magzine write or call:
> >IFGE
> >P.O. Box 367
> >Wayland, MA 01778
> >Phone: (617) 899-2212 or (617) 894-8340
> >
> >Subscription/membership is $40.00
> 
> Can someone who gets Tapestry tell us how it is mailed?  For those with
> roommates who don't know (and often get the mail before we do) it's important
> to be discreet.  Does it come in an envelope or wrapper, or just plain?
> 
> Jenni
> -- 

It comes in a opaic envelope. The classical "brown wrapper"
to keep it from prying eyes. It has the PO box as
return address but no name or initals!

That is how I get mine!

Love and hugs,

Celeste

P.S. Tell them you hear it from Celeste!
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered