HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:31 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
	
	Besides using factory ammo, you should take the brand into
account.  "Black Sabbath" ammunition, "Blammo ammo", etc, whatever you
are considering, consider also a jury of 12 people whose only knowledge of
guns is the A-team or McGuiver, and a prosecuter gratefull for any help you
so give him in painting a picture of a reckless or bloodthirsty defendant.
If you know of a police department that issues ammo you like, choose
that ammo, and give their choice of it as your reason.

#Another point my father made that I guess makes sense is that when loading a 
#clip  (doesn't apply in my case, at least not yet :-)  you should 
#"fingerprint-proof" your bullets.  This can be done by loading the clip with 
#glove on or use a towel when loading.  This gives one less piece of evidence
#tieing you to the gun.  It may not help, but why give the prosecutor any kind 
#of edge.
	
	Only if you are a criminal do you need to avoid a tie to your
actions.   Seeking to flee the scene, cover up anything, hide evidence
or change anything is the best gift you could give to a prosecutor,
and the worst diservice you could do to yourself unless you look
forward to a criminal record, prison time, and a loss of your RKBA.

	In a murder trial, "flight = guilt", as does disturbing evidence
or otherwise showing a pattern of criminality.

#Does anyone else have any other tips?  Or comments on what I stated?

	Yeah, your dad doesn't sound like an attorney.  You should consult
an attorney if you want real suggestions.
	
JD
From: steveg@digex.digex.com (Stephen Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: MP5 10mm
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:43 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

You are correct that HK does/did make an MP-5 in a 10mm
chambering. However the design was made well after the May 19, 1986
machine gun law change which forbids private ownership of
newly made automatic weapons. Hence, because the guns are
made "post-86" they are transferrable only to police, government,
and class III machine gun dealers as sales samples only.

Life sucks doesn't it? All because of something someone passed
on a day in May of 1986....

Steve
From: grl@drutx.ATT.COM (Randy Lyman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Loads for the SIG P-220
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T, Denver, CO


Dear rec.guns readers:
 
I apologize for my previous post of loads for my .45 ACP;
my memory is worse than I thought, and I had the wrong
bullet listed in my posting!  (There is no Hornady 185 gr.
LSWC . . .  OOPS!)
 
You know what they say, the two signs of old age are
FIRST you start losing your memory, and SECOND, uh, um,
I can't remember.		;-)
 
Here's a poor load for the SIG P-220:
 
	185 gr. Hornady JHP/XTP
	5.4 gr. Bullseye
	CCI 300  WWC case
	OAL = 1.230 in.
 
This is the load the range officer fired without problem
in his .45 GLOCK.
 
The worst load of all those I tried is this one:
 
	200 gr. Hornady LSWC (#4526)
	5.8 gr. Unique
	CCI 300  WWC case
	OAL = 1.235 in.
 
Jammed on almost every round out of 10; slide didn't lock back
on last round.  Last night I used the Midway impact bullet
puller to help me replace the powder in the remaining 40 rounds
with 5.1 gr. of HP-38.

Here's one GOOD LOAD for the SIG P-220:
 
	200 gr. Speer JHP ("flying ashtray")
	5.5 gr. Bullseye
	CCI 300  WWC case
	OAL = 1.176 in.
 
This one produced a couple of 2.5 inch 5-shot group at 50 yards.  
As always, you reloaders out there should always consult an 
"official" reloading manual before trying any of these loads.
 
Regards,
 
Randy Lyman		grl@drutx.att.com		"I'm the NMLRA!"
From: boyd@gauss (Mickey Boyd)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleveland Next to Burn?
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:00:41 GMT
Organization: fsu.edu

The Polymath (hollombe@polymath.tti.com) wrote:
#
# The Davis SpeedFeed stock doesn't look to have room in it for any of the
# off-the-shelf recoil dampers.  I'm considering constructing one myself.
# After all, it's just a tube with mercury in it.  The question arises, "How
# much mercury?" Half full? 3/4? 1/4?  Anyone know?

The Harts recoil arrestor (for pistols and the MP-5, as far as I know) uses a 
system of mercury and balls in a tube.  Apparently, the balls make a big 
difference (they are closely sized to the diameter of the tube, but not 
exactly).  If you are going to homebrew it, you might want to diddle with this 
idea as well.  Good luck, post your results.

(Oh, I seem to remember reading that the tubes on the conventional dampers are
about 3/4 full).


--
******************************************************************************
*                                Mickey Boyd                                 *
*                           Systems Administrator                            *
*              Florida State University Mathematics Department               *
* email:  boyd@math.fsu.edu  Office:  (904) 644-7167  Pager:  (904) 657-6425 *
******************************************************************************
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning BDM
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:16 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

I've had a chance to finger the BDM. I found it enjoyable to shoot,
but not nearly as enjoyable as my Hi-Power. The trigger was awful --
I thought I was sanding concrete or something! In DA I was
waiting.......waiting.....
The sights were nice and visible, and recoil was light, even with
115gr. +P loads. The one thing I really didn't like about it was the
size of it -- it is about as thick as a Glock. And that darned
revolver/pistol mode of operation! Ugh! I just have this sense of
dread at seeing a cop in a gun fight someday: "Hmmm.....which mode
for this perp???"

Come on Browning! Why try to compete with your own proven design??

Seriously though, it's a nice gun if you are into all the bells and
whistles and assorted gimmicks of the 90s.
From: spickett@orion.oac.uci.edu (Steve Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <9301240030.AA22655@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@orioncmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
#In article <199301230735.AA26183@news.service.uci.edu>, spickett@orion.oac.uci.edu (Steve Pickett) writes:
#|> 
#|> I'm surprised nobody said anything about the reloading scene where he pours
#|> the powder into the casing without a funnel. Just straight from the scoop
#|> from the scale. That had to be a one grain at a time maneuver. Oh well :-)
#|> I still think his movies are well above the rest. 
#|> 
#|> -Steve
#|> 
#Actually, I do this when using Bullseye, as I find it tends to stick
#to my funnel :-(  I don't encounter this with the bigger flakes in
#Blue Dot.  And yes I can pour 4.0gr of Bullseye into a 9mm case without
#spilling it.

Sorry, I forgot to mention it was bottleneck rifle cases being filled. Hmmm,
wonder how many grains of bullseye fit into a 308 case? Wonder who'd be crazy
enough to fire it once loaded. Guess it wouldn't exactly qualify as a
subsonic load :-)

-Steve

[MODERATOR:  I dunno ... I bet the bolt might approach better than subsonic
speeds as it blows back, thought only for the fraction of a second before it
lodges in the shooter's skull...]
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:53 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <n9020351.727559970@waldorf> n9020351@waldorf.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
#
##I'm sure that this has been discussed earlier but after shooting in some
##3-gun 'tactical' matches at Chabot Gun Club I believe that a 3" shell with
###4 buck shot is the best round.  The reasons? At the longer distaces 50+ yds
##you have a better chance of hitting a bad guy with the greater number of
##pellets in the magnum round.  If you go to 00 buck you have too few pellets
#
#
#???  Under what circumstances would it be desireable or lawful to 
#use lethal force against a figure 50+ yards away?

I'm out at the ranch, there's a drunk poacher who is pissed at me
because I kicked him off my land, so when he's far enough away he
turns around and starts taking pot shots.  Him not knowing, of course
that that nifty vest I'm wearing is kevlar and that I don't appreciate
being shot at, especially on my own land.

Not too far fetched a scenario.  We have a problem with poachers who
come down from the nearby big city (Indianapolis).  They have a friend
who moved into the area a few years ago, and every year during
firearms season they get drunk then go out "hunting".  Some 15 or 20
of them at a time will descend on the countryside, not paying any
attention to property lines and generally acting very obnoxious.
After a few years of this my neighbors banded together and pretty much
put an end to it, so they moved over a few miles.  But every now and
then I'll catch one of them on my land.  So far all the confrontations
have been peaceful, and I'm a hopin to keep it that way.  
Tactically, I'm wearing military Class III+ kevlar, shortly before I
confront a poacher I'm on the radio autopatching a conservation
officer friend of mine who's responsible for my neck of the woods, so
he knows what's going down, and then I autopatch my nearest neighbor
and tell him to "bring the boys" if he doesn't hear back from me soon.
I'm also armed with my 12 guage, and a 9mm as a backup, though the
weapon is never displayed in a threatening manner (I mean, you're
gonna be carrying your shotgun when you're hunting right?).  I
generally scope out the area before I make any confrontation, and I
keep my back covered, and use backup if any is available (lots of my
friends hunt my place with my permission).


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Handload Questions
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:02:58 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
<sutff deleted>
##to keep it around. The frame was taking a pretty good battering 
##(although there were no signs of mechanical "problems", I could swear 
##I could hear ..
<stuff deleted>
#Even if you don't "hear" it - it's still happening.  Ever heard of a Shok-Buff?
#It's a little piece of hard rubber that goes over the spring guide in the
#Colt, to prevent the battering of the frame by the slide.  This battering
#occurs, especially when your load doesn't match you recoil spring.  If you
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#take the time to match spring and load, they last a long time.  The one in my
#Boland comp-gun has been there for 2.5 years.

#Bill	burge@qdeck.com 

I'm sure Bill knows this, but for the record an 18lb spring is the heaviest
you should go.  Any heavier and you are beating the gun (in the other
direction) and perhaps making your "safe" trigger pull unsafe.

 Chris
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Thompson/Contender info
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:02:07 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

John, I can't quote all the present chamberings for the Contender,
but I know of a few: .22LR, .357, .44, .45colt/.410, .45-70, .223,
.30-30, 35rem, 7mm tcu, 7-30 waters.

I wish I could remember right off the top of my head what all else is
currently chambered, but I can't. Call your local dealer and ask. One
other thing to consider, SSK Industries of Ohio (I believe...) also
custom chambers Contender barrels. You can get their catalog via.
mail.

I use my 14" 7mm tcu bbl for informal silhouette shooting. I'm dead
on out to 200 yds. with plenty of power to topple rams. I haven't
tried for anything over 200 yds, but I'm sure a littel load tweaking
and you could manage quite nicely. 300 yds might be pushing it though
in the 7mm tcu -- I honestly couldn't say. If you are interested in
really reaching out that far, I'd suggest you work on the short range
stuff for a while and slowly move up. SSK would be a good place to
look for a custom re-barrel job, or maybe build your own action
(something I've tinkered with for a few years, but I'm just not
always motivated!).

Regards,
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best stopping power in handguns?
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:54 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

#The "hot" (+P, +P+) 9x19mm loads were developed for use in
#modern guns that could tolerate the higher pressures because
#at SAAMI pressures 9mm Luger did not seem to be doing a good

	+P and +P+ are within SAAMI.

#Full-load 10mm may actually have worse average results in
#self-defense shooting than 45 ACP, when bullet styles are
#similar.  On the other hand there can be situations where
#the additional penetration is useful.

	If the sectional densities are made similar to a .45 
the .40 cals will do better than if they are over heavy.  A 145 
gr 10mm would be more analogous to a 185 gr .45 than the 170-180
grain slugs are, and would certianly expand in the 1200-1300 fps
range.   They are just starting to make things like this, I believe.
I wondered why the Silvertip wasn't 155 gr rather than 175 gr.

JD
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: hand shaking {beer drinking is illegal!}
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:14 GMT


viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) mentions a friend that drinks a beer
before shooting to combat the shakes.

The 1952 Olympic Games in Helsinki were won (not sure of which pistol event)
by a Swedish competitor.  He was disqualified on the grounds that he
had drunk 3 pints of ale before the meet.  He was "very" relaxed and
this helped his shooting.

My father, who competed in '52 (kayaking not shooting:)) claims that this
event caused quite a stir with the officals and competitors alike.

By the same token, sporting events that drug testing is unlikely to occur
at are ripe for people to use over the counter medication to boost there
performance.  Caffenine and asprin are two commonly "used" to by distance
event competitors.  This is why bicyle racers drink morning thunder tea 
during the event.

Larry 
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"Another running gun fight...Destroyer gunning...Wahoo running"
							"Mush" Morton
Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 5585				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5320
From: sparker@zeus.calpoly.edu (Sean Lawrence Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: scope mounts
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:00:38 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

I own a norinco mak 90 and was wondering if any body knows where I
might be able to get a scope mount for it. Are thereany suggestions on
what would be a good scope for shooting in the 100 to 200 yard
range.Appreciate any and all replys. 

Sean  sparker@oboe.calpoly.edu
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self defense hypothetical
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:10:49 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, California

In article <PA142548.880.728079899@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
#I consort refularly with a former police officer.  His advice to me was to 
#fade away if possible.  (If you shoot the perp in your home, this is not 
#practical.)
...
#To answer your question, If I am not likely to be identified, I will collect 
#my brass, and retire.

Hmmm, a reason to carry a revolver!  No brass to collect!

	[MODERATOR:  Well.... not necessarily.  Don't forget that some
	 of our brothers and sisters of rec.guns have shown an inclination
	 towards getting as much out of their defense against assualt as
	 possible.  Said individuals may well need to collect not only
	 brass, but several speed loaders.....]
-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: mfolenta@pica.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bullets & magnetism - The End
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:01:54 GMT


     Man, I'm starting to think I need to bring all my home gadgets
 to work so that I have all my toys and stuff with me when I post things.

  OK, here goes :

# ##  Wayne J. Warf writes :

# # #I bought some Czech made Sellior & Bellot 9mm Para FMJ. I had read
# # #that this had a nickel plated copper jacketed bullet. 

 -- snip-O-matic --

# # and Ed Rudnicki wrote :
  
# # Steel jackets, on the other hand, are perfectly acceptable. This is what
# # you've got in the case of the Czech and Portuguese ammo. The commercially
# # packaged Sellier and Bellot 9mm also has a steel jacket. Most of my surplus
# # ammo is steel jacketed.

 >  and I wrote:

  --snip-- Comment about magnetic nickel alloys deleted

#  references in this case).  And a good nickel plating job entails underplating
#  with copper first, so I can't quite see why someone would go to all that trouble
#  to nickel plate some steel instead of just using nickel-based jackets. (not that
#  it isn't possible, just that _I_ can't see why they'd do it that way.  No flames)
# 
  --snip-- Comment about Winchester Silvertips being Aluminum jacketed deleted

     Well, short of doing a full lab analysis on what the Sellier & Bellot 9mm
 Para FMJ bullets are, I now say that those things _are_ steel jacketed.
 And they actually DID do the steps of putting a copper plate on top of the
 steel and then a nickel plate on top of the copper plate.  Crazy way to go
 I still think, but what the heck.

        ***** These are my opinions.  Get your own. :-) *****
       Michael Folenta          | U.S. Army ARDEC
    Future Weapons Branch       | Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000
   email mfolenta@pica.army.mil | (201) 724-3880  [AV 880-3880]
From: miket@amc.com (Mike Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: East German 7.62X39 Ammo
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:36 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA


I am getting together a multi-case purchase of cheap 7.62X39 ammo
to feed some SKS`s and was wondering if anyone has any warnings about
the East German surplus.

Is it really non-corrosive? Reliable? Reasonably accurate?

How does it compare to the Chinese surplus? And as long as we're 
talking surplus ammo, which of the Chinese stuff is really non-corrosive,
mildly corrosive, and corrosive?

Thanks,
-- 

Mike Taylor		    	Phone:  (206) 822-5406 (Hm)
Applied Microsystems Corp.		(206) 882-5309 (Wk)
9435 116th Ave NE		Fax:    (206) 883-3049
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT backup advice/instructions needed
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:03 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.


Regarding AMT backups/automags
davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler) writes:

#"Some work and some don't and you don't know which yours is until you
#try it out" is what someone on this newsgroup told me. I never could get 
#mine to shoot more than two rounds in a row without a jam.

#Well, any gun which has the above reputation doesn't instill a great deal
#of confidence. I decided that, even if I could get mine working correctly,
#I didn't trust it to save my life, so I bought a Walther PPK/S and have
#been very happy with it.

#I personally could never recommend anyone using an AMT Backup because of
#it's reliability problems, not only the one's I had, but stories from others
#too. I've heard that the Mustang is decent and I can heartily recommend
#the Walther PPK.

 I was hoping that this AMT thread would go away, since I have posted
 this story before.  Unfortunatly I have noticed several people asking
 about the AMT Automags & Backups.
 
 Well, as I've posted before.  I owned a AMT automag several years
 ago.  The first day I owned it, it blew up in my hand when the
 slide crushed a live round instead of chambering it.  The surgery
 on my "trigger finger" cost $1000+.  It also cost AMT some $$ to
 settle with me. . . To this day, (5+ years later), I still only
 have 60-70% strength/feeling in my right trigger finger.  I also
 couldn't shoot a semi-auto for over a year after the accident because
 of the flinch that I developed because of it.  Maybe that's why
 I now still prefer revolvers over semi-autos.

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
				NRA, ILA,
                                Colorado Firearms Collation
------------------------------------------------------------
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER NOT!)
The CBS Nightly Propaganda With Dan Rather. (RATHER BIASED!)
------------------------------------------------------------
From: hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com (Stephen Camp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Target .22 Recomendations
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:47 GMT
Organization: Martin Marietta, Denver

In article <C1Guuo.C5L@world.std.com> archon@world.std.com (Timothy P Szczesuil) writes:
#
#My SO and I are starting out with target .22s before moving on to
#larger calibers.  We've taken the NRA Basic Pistol and developed a
#fondness for one-handed shooting.  We are quite close to purchasing
#a Smith & Wesson Model 422 (6 in. barrel) and a Mitchell Arms 


I don't know how much they cost now, but I wouldn't trade my S&W Model 41
for anything.  It sure shoots sweet.  And has a great sight picture. Oh, the
triggers real nice too, ;-)  I've got the 5 1/2" bull barrel.




-- 

Steve Camp
(303)971-4379
hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trouble in MiraMesa
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:45 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1993Jan22.003145.10202@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
#My friend's father, who is actually supposed to be a good competitive
#shooter, intends to shoot him in the leg, if he comes to work armed.
#When I tried to tell her that I thought his attitude was dangerous, she
#said that 1) her dad is a very good shot and 2) there's no reason to
#just kill the guy.

Well, if he is JUSTIFIABLY confident of his ability to place shots
that accuracy under the pressure of a real self-defense situation
(and how would he know this?), then it could be legally required
that he do this, rather than what would otherwise be likely to
result i(a legally UNjustified) homicide.  However, not many people
are really that capable.  Most likely it's the usual misperception
that "shooting to wound" is somehow more civilized than "shooting
to kill".  Of course, the recommended policy is NEITHER of those --
it's "shoot so as to maximize the likelihood of stopping the assault",
which generally happens to also have a significant chance of killing
the assailant.  But in any rational moral, ethical, and legal system
your priority should be on preserving your own life, not that of a
thug.