From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:58:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.193315.15180@linus.mitre.org> heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>In article <70282@apple.Apple.COM> russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams) writes:
>>In article <2A6B36DE.16386@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>[A lot of impassioned and well-reasoned stuff too long to quote]
>>
>>I have to agree with Janis: when I hear people  complaining about
>>affirmative action or men complaining about women-only
>>groups, etc. my reaction is: get real.
>
>I beg to differ.  What if there was a white man's congressional caucus,
>as there are for women and blacks?  What if there was a National
>Association for the Advancement of White People?  What if there was a
>Hetero Rights Organization?  All of these would be labeled harmful and
>reactionary out-of-hand, regardless of what they actually did.

Jesus Christ, buddy are you that clueless?  Any fucking caucus you go to
is liable to be a white man's congressional caucus.  Do white people
really NEED an association for their advancement?  Are you that
incapable of distinguishing between the lynchers and the lynchees?  DO
heteros NEED a special organization?  GAYS are the ones who take their
lives in their hands by just stepping out their front doors, not you for
being hetero. 

>>You're just a selfish kid
>>who's had all the toys and is complaining about having to share them.
>
>I disagree.  There is more than enough to share... it seems to me,
>however, that we're not talking about sharing.  It seems the various
>protest organizations are interested in the pendulum swinging the other
>way, rather than having it come to rest in the center.  Why?

And pray tell, where did you get this idea?  I guess every time someone
yells about injustice basewd on physical discrimination, they're just
trying to hog all the power from you.

You're goddamned right I want power.  You're goddamned right I want to
see black people get power.  You're goddamned right I want to see
homosexual people get the power -- the power that has been denied to all
of them for the last couple millenia.  You just don't want to surrender
your power because deep inside you have an uncomfortable feeling that it
was gotten unjustly.  Deep inside, you know that we HAVE suffered, no
matter who the fuck is RESPONSIBLE, and you know that if you put up with
as much as we have, you'd be pissed as all hell -- and you're afraid of
that.

>>As for thousands of years of guilt, though, I don't accept it. I'm
>>not big on guilt in the first place, and I've only had 36 years to
>>accumulate it. I don't believe in "even unto the
>>third and fourth (or whatever it is) generations". I'm responsible
>>(a word I much prefer) for what *I* do, not for what anybody else
>>does, and certainly not for what dead people did. A history of 
>>thousands of years of oppression of women by men certainly affects 
>>women (and men) differently than would a single lifetime's worth,
>>but that doesn't add up to an interest-bearing guilt account. 
>>
>>Most would say that Hitler bore more guilt than the millions who
>>followed him, but his existence gave others the responsibility
>>to oppose him. I'm not guilty of thousands of years of male
>>domination, but I have a responsibility to help change it.
>
>I agree with you here.

Then why are you so afraid?  Why do you seem to spend so little time
DOING something about what's wrong, or just listening to someone talk
about the pain thy've suffered and so much time screaming about how
*YOU* didn't do it, even before anyone accused you.  

Janis