HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca (Paul Lalonde)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Date: 6 Nov 1992 10:47:29 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: harpo.cs.ubc.ca

bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
>I am sorry, but I am starting to feel rather put upon by the wholesale
>condemnation of SCA archery.  I can not claim to be a good archer, I
>can not even claim to be the best equiped arcer.  I will say that when
>I started archery back in AS XI I tried to get the closest thing to
>a long bow that I could find and after the thing finally failed I tried
>to get another relatively sticky bow.  I shoot arrows off my hand
>(there is no arrow rest on either bow) the strings at least do not look
>like they belong on a guitar or a fishing pole ...

Wonderful! No Complaints!  I think this is great!  I doubt, Solveig,
that you will find anyone reproaching you about your shooting.

>of Bowmen was established, Mistress Marian asserted that medieval
>practices consisted of all the bowmen in town showing up after church
>on Sunday on the village green with their bow and their one arrow, they
>would shoot at a but on one side of the green, walk over retrieve their
>arrow shoot at the but on the opposite side and then go home.  If that
>is what went on, I am not convinced that they were accomplished archers,
>that they had really consistent technique or that we convince people in
>the SCA who do things for fun after all to go to an event and shoot
>precisely two arrows.

Mistress Marian's statement is accurate as I understand it.  However,
the analysis is only accounting for first order effects.  Those two
arrows every week from the time you are 12 will lead to some degree
of proficiency, but certainly not expert status (however certainly
greater proficiency than found in our culture...)

Where I think the great gains are made is that the opportunity to shoot
was given to everyone.  Every boy was to be given a bow and a certain 
number of arrows.  The win comes when some of those shooting at the
mandatory shoots discover shooting is fun or a way into a career, and
start practicing away from the formal practice.  Having their own bow
made this practical.  Suddenly a large number of competant bowmen 
appears.  Think of the two arrows a week as Gym class - without it
half your high school soccer team would never have started playing the
game...but gym class will not turn you into a jock (I can attest to
that one personally :-)

	Paul

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: You Know You're In The SCA......
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 18:59:46 GMT

In article <Bx95Aq.95J@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael) writes:
|> 
|> Your children learn "sword hand" and "shield hand" long before learning
|> "right" and "left."
|> 
|> This is also how we teach our stick jocks to dance....
|> 
This works really well just as long as the fighter is a rightie.
My poor husband gets very confused when he is learning to dance
since he is a leftie. :)

Has anyone noticed the stong influx of new fighters who are lefties
lately. I heard rumor that 3 out of the 4 semi-finalists for Cynagua
Coronet were lefties?

|> -- 
|> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|> | Jael                    |   "One dream, one soul, one prize, one goal,     |
|> | jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu | One golden glance of what should be." -R. Taylor |
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Euriol
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: checking in
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1992 17:16:53

 JT> Once a year, I teach a 2 week-long workshop about the technology of the 
 JT> medieval book, in a medieval setting in the panhandle of Idaho, with my
 JT> colleague, Jim Croft.  The workshop includes a section about papermaking,
 JT> using rag pulp beat in a three-hammer, overshot 
 JT> waterwheel-driven stampmill.
 JT> Jack C. Thompson
 JT> Thompson Conservation Laboratory
 JT> 7549 N. Fenwick
 JT> Portland, Oregon  97217
 JT> (503) 248-0046 (day)
 JT> (503) 289-8723 (evening; when the kids aren't on the line)

Where can those of us who don't plan to be in Oregon any time soon look for further information? Specifically, where can one purchase the necessary equipment for hand-bookbinding?

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca (Paul Lalonde)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Date: 5 Nov 1992 11:25:55 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: harpo.cs.ubc.ca

Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>Lord Gunter von Wissenberg (badger@wixer.cactus.org) writeth:

> B>  William, my bow is an ash longbow, which, when I work up
> B> the nerve to attack a stick of Yew with sharp implements,

>Why do you need to work up the nerve?  Is yew expensive?  Difficult to work
>with?  Or do you just mean the nerve to tackle another project?

To answer - yes, it is expensive, and quite difficult to work.  There is
currently a shortage of Yew bowstaves, that puts them into the UGH price
category.  The other option is to harvest your own, but this is a 4 year
process with a high probability of not yeilding a good stave.  
Remember that yew is a twisty gnarly growth with lots of pin knots.
Ideally you want a piece 6 1/2 feet long, clear of knots, straight,
and that it MUST come from the outside of the log.  You can get by
splicing two peices in the handle, letting you use 3 1/2 foot staves,
but adding more risk of breakage...the joint is not trivial.

Yew also has to be worked entirely with the grain.  Many other woods
people make longbows with can be worked without paying any attention to
the grain.  But in yew, the structure of the grain is relevant to the
final product.  Lemonwood lets you use straight lines and planes and
rasps.  Yew requires lots of fussiness to play with the grain.

> B> I am making a set of footed arrows,

>What is "footed"?

Footed is where you splice a stronger wood at the foot of the arrow
to increase the strength of the arrow and change its weight ballance.
There are a few ways of doing it, some easier, some prettier.  I can
elaborate if you like.

	Paul/Gaerhun

 Paul A. Lalonde	 	Internet: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca

"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible aux yeux"
				- Antoine de St.-Exeupery
From: Phyllis_Gilmore@rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: fealty and peers
Date: 12 Nov 92 02:11:19 GMT
Organization: RAND

In article <1992Nov11.073335.8628@news.vanderbilt.edu>, cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk) writes:
 
Lots of stuff deleted to save space
> 
> My own preference would be to consider our KSCA's, Laurels, and
> Pelicans to be, essentially, Knights Banneret, Baronets, or Vavasours,
> and to consider any authorized fighter with arms to be a Knight
> Bachelor.  Anyone else with arms can be considered of Knightly Status.
> Then use "Lord" for the peers, "Sir" for anybody (authorized or not)
> with arms, and "Master" for anybody.
> 
And here, too.
> --
>     -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
>
As one who is mundanely possessed of the title Master of Arts, I learned far too 
much about medieval titles for my sanity in the SCA.  I continue to be slightly
annoyed that so much fuss can be made over so many points of authenticity while
so basic a thing as personal titles is so appallingly un-Period.  My first brush
with "flaming" came from a corresondent who all-too politely and patiently 
explained that I was not supposed to sign myself as Mistress anything.  Yet in 
the period of my Persona, that is exactly how I would have been addressed, not
because of an academic degree (which I, as a woman, could not have possessed), but 
as a fine upstanding member of the middle class.  Neither would I have been 
addressed as "my lady," which I find uncomfortable because of its special meanings 
in both the Known and Mundane worlds.  

So what do I propose to do about it?  Good question.  I suppose I could dazzle 
everyone with my skill as an embroiderer (hint:  I find blackwork boring, and I'd
like to recreate some of Mary Queen of Scots' work).  Oooops.  Isn't there some
rule about not actively seeking honors, such as titles?  Oh, well.  All I wanted
was a little respect, such as an authentic *courtesy* title. 

Philippa d'Ecosse
of Lyondemere in Caid
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the SCA
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:43:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: genie.1992Nov5.194343.10792
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1d8kb5INN5r@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:
>
>After 27 years, we have built up a certain amount of inertia in our
>practices, customs and traditions.  But, unfortunately, the "resistance
>to change" factor seems to be dangerously high.  Witness the recent
>discussions about changes to the peerages, the historical model for
>local groups, fealty oaths, etc.  The bulk of opinion seems to be "Well,
>we've done it this way for 25+ years - we're not going to change just
>because it's not historically based."

Doing things because they're traditional, refusing to change because
of an intellectual rule, and not being interested in historical
authenticity all sound pretty period to me.

Nancy Lebovitz   (once Nancy of Newark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 76520.3531@compuserve.COM (Jack Thompson)
Subject: Sword maker
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 07:54:09 GMT

A friend of mine is interested in making swords (claymores, down through the
bitty ones) for anyone interested (no, not for free); sharp, polished,
hafted, hilted, and balanced.  If anyone is interested, drop me a note to
the cserve number and I'll pass it on.
Jack C. Thompson   >76520.3531@compuserve.com<

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the SCA
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:12:53 GMT

>What we CAN offer is the opportunity to attempt to build things or try 
>techniques that historians have only found hints at. The possibility that 
>one might find a group within the local SCA that will help make something 
>real out of the fragmented bits of references could be very useful in some 
>disciplines, especially since the SCAdians would likely be willing to 
>provide a good bit of the funds if allowed to keep the results...
>

This practice is called experimental archeology. It is occasionally
practiced by Historical and Classical Archeologists, as well as some
art conservators. It is not history as practiced by Historians and I get
the impression (from talking with both historians and archeologists)
that the Historians tend to ignore the Archeologists and vice-versa. It
is only in some areas of classical archeology and Viking-Age archeology
that historians and archeologists seem willing to work together. In
other periods, there is some lag time between the time that the
archeologists dig up something new and the time that the historians
accept the fact. I have heard this attributed to the fact that many
archeologists are lousy historians.
	Experimental Archeology, which is mostly what the SCA really
tends to do, is still somewhat controversial and is really marginal to
what historians are interested in. I believe this is because
experimental archeology attempts to deduce the function of a found
artifact or the purpose of an archeological site. History ARGUES but
never answers the question "Why did some historical event occur?" or
"What were the causes/aftereffects of some event?" Archeology can
provide facts to bolster up arguments, but it can't argue "Why" or
"What" on just the basis of the found evidence.
	Quite frankly, I don't believe that most SCA people are
interested in what historians do. SCA people like concrete "facts" about
concrete items. Historians seem to like theories about social and
economic trends. I have heard a medieval historian dismiss most military
history as "antiquarian" i.e. unabashed reverence for suspect history
without any criticism or analysis of anything other that the events
themselves. I think that this criticism applies to the SCA as well.
We can get very concerned about 15th C. dance, or costume, or armor, or
whatever, but we are completely uninterested in "Why". Why did 15th C.
dance evolve the way it did? Why did 15th C. dress look the way it did?
Did these artifacts of the time reflect some larger aspect of the
culture? Did they presage some later, important innovation? Most SCA
folk don't pay much attention to those sorts of questions, and that's
why we aren't medievalists.

Lothar \|/
        0
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dhigginb@sol.motown.ge.COM (David Higginbotham)
Subject: Renn Faire overlap
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:30:52 GMT

   Greetings from a Marklander,


   In article <9211041715.AA17413@sagepub.COM> jprod@sagepub.com
   (Sister Kate) writes:

   > Charles says: "There is no reason that the SCA shouldn't peacefully
   > co-exist with [other re-creation] groups."
   	...Renn Faire story deleted...
   > What about Markland and other groups? Does anyone have personal experience
   > dealing with the SCA's relationship to them?

   There are several "crossover" SCA members in my group. They pay
   their dues to Markland and presumably to their SCA groups as
   well. Coming from the SCA, they're well disciplined and have a
   strong sense for the organizational side of things (IMHO).

   My group welcomes Scadians, and our membership is pretty much
   open to everyone; other groups within Markland may or may not
   feel the same way. As far as I'm aware, there's no official
   policy regarding the SCA one way or another. I've observed
   friendly jibes, friendly competition on and off the battlefield,
   and general comradery between some of the SCA and some of
   Markland.

   Sure the rules and the charters are different, but both
   organizations keep the duct tape, rattan, linen, and wool
   suppliers happy.


				 	Richard the Saxon
					Companions of the Cross
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Filk vs. Recreation 
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 20:34:20

 DB> any way, prohibit the dancing of original selections written in legitimate
 DB> period styles.  In fact, such original creation should be encouraged!

 And so it is........ at least here in Ansteorra.

 DB> On a related tangent, I'd like to see more legitimately period and period-
 DB> style music in the SCA.  I obviously can't speak for 
 DB> other areas, but here in Calontir, filk seems to be far and away the      most popular material.  (I'm including in my use of the term "filk" not     only songs, serious or otherwise, written to well-known tunes, but     also purely original, and often very good songs that just happen to be     very modern in style.) 
 
 Agreed -- there ARE kingdom differences, and changes with time.  When i  lived in the Midrealm (1976--1985), you were far more likely to hear  filksongs performed as legitimate feast entertainment than you were to hear  anything of a period nature.  When I moved to Ansteorra, I was amazed and  delighted to hear all of the period poetry, songs and stories being  performed.  It took me a while to figure out that they really had no use for  filk at most formal and informal times -- altho you'll occasionally 





hear one  sung very late at some of the bardic fires.  I had to learn to write songs to  period tunes. Technically this is still filk -- but it's a time-honored  period practice, and is acceptable to the audience I now have.  The nice  thing is that now when I write a song, I also write my own music -- and it  has a period feel to it.  Probably would not be doing that if I'd stayed  where writing to modern tunes was accepted practice. 

 I think you have to encourage by example here -- praise loudly the peices   that you hear that sound medieval.   Encourage others to perform in that  style.  Write something yourself to a well-known piece from Society  period.  Duchess Willow did a lot of that here in the early days (before I  got here, but I've heard the tales) to get the Ansteorran bards and  their audiences educated to enjoy the medieval style ---- it worked.  I  think we have some of the best bards in the Society in our kingdom.  I fi





nd  them a source of wonder and inspiration, and always great entertainment.

 - Vashti, who sings a little, dances a little, and has much fun...



 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dhigginb@rael.motown.ge.COM
Subject: Renn Faire overlap
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 04:59:32 GMT

> Unto Richard the Saxon comes greetings from Lady Juelda of Salisbury,
> Could you tell me please good gentle what the difference is between the
> Markland group and the SCA?

Unto Lady Juelda of Salisbury does Richard the Saxon return greetings,
and to Jester of Anglesea, The Monotone Bard, greetings.

Having been a Marklander for just over a year, I can't claim to be an
expert on just who we are.  As Jester of Anglesea pointed out, there
are many frat fighters in Markland, including myself. Many Marklanders
are in it for the historical research. Some Marklanders are into
dance.  My favorite activity, to be truthful, is feasting.

Just like the SCA, we have squabbles over levels of authenticity,
debates over frat rules, arguments over rhino-hiding, and differences
over when and where is Markland.  I've observed a preference for
Viking re-creation among the leadership. Saxon, Celt, and other
cultures are studied and re-created in some groups.  My group,
Companions of the Cross, concentrates on Eastern European cultures,
though few of us have ancestory there.

Speaking of demographics, Markland is made up of folks from
different walks of life, and of different ages. Somewhat similar to
the SCA, Markland was created in 1969 by students of the University of
Maryland fencing club.  Many Marklanders in the area are current or
former students. My group was founded by a police officer, and at one
time was comprised mainly of cops. This isn't the case anymore as
we've grown in size and diversity. We're probably the oldest group in
Markland - most of us are in our late 30's and early 40's - yet we've
members in their teens. 

To answer your question on how we _differ_, my guesses are the
following:

	. Size -      Markland exists only in the mid-Atlantic states,
	              from Virginia to New York. The SCA, of course,
	              is international.
	. Structure - Markland is composed of several "groups". We
	              don't have kingdoms, shires, or baronies. We
	              have a handful of central officers, but the
	              pecking order among the groups is locally
	              defined, if at all.
	. Weapons -   Markland weapons are padded more - no bare
	              rattan at striking surfaces. We allow bows and
	              arrows, but the arrows have plugs attached to
	              prevent them from getting through grilles or
	              eye slits.
	. Armor -     Usually, the only metal armor you see is on guys
	              from the SCA crossover groups - otherwise, we
	              wear leather or lots of heavy gamberson
	              material. Plastic armor isn't allowed.

Let me close by saying that Markland has an address and a hotline, where
more information can be obtained. If you wish more info, please email
me directly; I believe I can pass this information on to you without
worrying about copyright or corporate issues, etc.

						Richard the Saxon
						Companions of the Cross
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:36:06 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Just Gwydion writes:
> My hope is to be able to set up two clout "areas" (rectangles, representing
> a formation of troops), one at the traditional 100 yds and another in the
> 150 to 200 yd range (yes, we _do_ have the room... cha-ching!).  Archers will
> be able to shoot at either formation.  While I know I'm going to get a lot
> of "Why would anyone want to shoot at the farther one??" I'm  sure I'll see
> a sigh of relief from those that shoot higher poundages.

And when they _do_ ask, you smile politely and answer "Because we can!" ;-)

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Pirates of the Carribean Event - Dec 12 - Rhydderich Hael - Write for details.
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Assorted Dance...Pease and others
Date: 2 Nov 92 19:21:02 GMT


 RW>  re the mention of the way Steppes does the Pease 
 RW> Bransle, I seem to remember  the practice wherein 
 RW> we made it a mixer by changing the dance.  It was 
 RW> about  5-6 years ago.
 You may be remembering the practice where *we* taught *you* the mixer 
 version.  I've danced Pease Bransle as a mixer since I joined, over in 
 the Outlands.  It's usually easier to teach first without the slipping 
 steps that make it a mixer, then throw in the slipping steps.
...
 RW>  Yes, you should come back to dance class - we need 
 RW> more women. Especially  those who can teach, too.
 Just find me a roommate who can actually pay bills......
...
 RW>  As far as the Stargate version of Half Hannigan goes, I don't really 
 RW> care if  this is the more correct version or not.  
 I actually had "Pepper's Black" in mind.
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: Group activity
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:27:44 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Elwyn of Thornbury writeth:
> The question under discussion is "Should groups be required to hold a minimum
> number of events?"

A group ought to be doing *something* even if it does not hold official
events.  A group that does nothing ceases to attract new blood, and that
will lead to ossification and death.

I am perfectly happy if they hold medieval woodworking demonstrations
for the public, produce medieval feasts for local charities, or
whatever.  But, if they do nothing, they will die.  Meanwhile,
prospective members in that area have no way to become involved.  Would
you have stayed in the SCA if your group would only have an event if
you cooked for it?
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca