From: twalters@world.std.com (Tim Walters)
Subject: Re: Holden Numbering
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 01:54:33 GMT

In article <2873@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
>In article <BtC0np.6u0@world.std.com>, twalters@world.std.com (Tim Walters) writes:
>> In article <2868@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
>> >In article <Bt8816.HLs@world.std.com>, twalters@world.std.com (Tim Walters) writes:
>> >> Ted, let's imagine that another of your bursts of radiation bathes the
>> >> Earth and a bunch of new mutants are created.
> 
>> >> Is it possible that one of these mutants could get more weight off the
>> >> ground than Kaz?
>
>> >In my opinion, no.  By all published accounts, muscle tissue is nearly 
>> >identical from any vertibrate to any other, so that mouse, human, and
>> >elephant muscle tissue is hard to tell apart under the microscope.  I
>> >don't easily see what any further mutation could add to that picture.
> 
>> Well, I wasn't thinking about muscle tissue, but that's a very
>> interesting idea. Unless you've looked at sauropod muscle tissue under
>> the microscope, how can you say that it wasn't different and stronger?
>
>You'd have to propose a new chemical basis for muscle tissue and then
>explain how all modern creatures got here without being in any way
>descended from sauropods or any creatures in the sauropods' ancestral
>history...  there'd be no way for modern creatures to be descended
>from ancient, the entire chemical basis of life being different for the
>two.  
>
>You'd have to become a creationist.

Hardly. I have no problem saying no modern animals are descended from
sauropods, do you? And if the muscular innovation originated with
them, and their descendents all died out, there'd be no trace of it
now, no?

Also, if you're going to claim that I have to propose a mechanism in
order for this to be considered, I hope you'll also be able to propose
a mechanism for the Earth to switch orbits...

>> But I was thinking of simpler changes. Some kind of Incredible Hulk
>> with really gigantic legs, twice as big as Kaz. With completely
>> different knee joints with better leverage. A real mutant. Why
>> couldn't he break Kaz's record?
>
>As I've noted, leverage and every measure of efficiency invariably mitigate
>against the larger creatures.

Come on, Ted, leverage doesn't have anything to do with size, it has
to do with shape.

Surely you have put a pipe on the end of a wrench to get some extra
leverage. Or used a car jack.  The extra leverage made you stronger.

Certainly some leg shapes are more efficient than others in lifting
weight. I'm asking you to explain why you think that Kaz has the
most efficient leg shape possible, for doing a squat thrust. That
means that it would be impossible to design a better leg shape for any
animal.

>And then there's another factor which Throop, Friesen et. al. leave out of
>their calculations entirely.
>
>Kaz lives on the very top of the food chain;  sauropods lived on the very 
>bottom.
>
>If you look at a picture of Kaz, you'll see that about half of the man's 
>weight is leg and back muscles, muscles most directly involved with squats,
>dead lifts, i.e. with your total-body lifts.  Kaz never had the so-called
>"lifter's belly" or any of the extra weight you see on Alexeev and some of
>your other top super-heavyweight lifters.
>
>The sauropod is a different story.  Most of his weight had to be involved
>in the distillation of nourishment from leaves and other low-content fibre,
>i.e. most of the weight is belly and alimentary system.
>
>I can't give an exact percentage, but from pictures it appears as if no more
>than a small fraction of a sauropod's weight could be legs.

So? The elephant is also a vegetarian, and has nowhere near half its
weight in its legs. They certainly don't look as if they've been
practicing powerlifting. I'd guess that a good musclebuilding program
could double the elephant's weightlifting capacity.

Of course, elephants don't stand up with squat thrusts either. They
use other ways to stand up which use much less effort. So they don't
need all that much bulk in their legs.
-- 
Tim Walters	twalters@world.std.com
Newsgroups: talk.origins