HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.home.automation
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:21:54 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Nov17.142413.7167@rdg.dec.com>, franzoni@sixter.var.dec.com (Mauro Franzoni) writes:
> In article <BxnGHr.F9p@uunet.uu.net>, CNTS12@email.mot.com (Mike Stevens)
> writes:
> > I am inquiry regarding setting up a home automation user group.  I 
> |> periodically see information in consumers.house; however, that group takes

then read misc.consumers.home which is where this topic is currently discussed.
This is a bad idea for two reason:

1) There is not enought traffic on the topic in the existing group to justify
a separate group.Every subject does not need its own group. The topics are
discussed in the existing group.

2) The proposed group is badly named. We would now have the potential for 
dfiscussions on home to exists in two separate hierarchies at two levels. You
are proposing a misc.home hierarchy which would duplicate the existing
misc.consumers.home. 


-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV)
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:27:26 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf) writes:
: >>>>> On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:53 GMT, rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR) said:
: 
: RA> While the CFV by Mr. Jafry has been cancelled, but still
: RA> he insists on collecting votes. That is also endorsed by
: RA> the S.R.I. moderator Balasat Ali Raja.
: 
: What a shameless charge you're making. Mr. Raja is not endorsing
: anybody. He authorized Mr. Jafri's article after being authorized by
: Mr. Lawrence on news.announce.newgroups and sent to s.r.i. Then he

The central point, Mr Saggaf, is how on earth did Raja suddenly conceive the
notion that he should unilaterally 'authorise' one Mansoor Jaffery
who is an opponent of s.r.i.a. (of this we now have definate proof ..
an article exposing Jafri will be posted soon) only hours after 
Dave Lawerence had communicated with him and Nabeel Rana, the proposed
moderator of s.r.i.a., about the CFV (see D. Lawerences long letter
explaining all). Since Nabeel had previously posted a CFV in his own
name (which was canceled for technical reasons) Raja could not 
possibly have been under any illusion that the CFV would be issued by
Nabeel with his own name again. Clearly, the aim of Raja, Jafri, and
all others involved with them was to deceive Lawerence, with a 
'fast one' .. and they succeeded it has to be said. They must have 
disinterested in the basic issue, there was a fair chance that Lawrence would
miss the chnage of just a single line, or think nothing much of it if
he did see it ... which is actually what happened. My belief is that the
aim was to collect as many YES votes in order to canvass and/or intimdate
them when the real CFV would eventually be issued.

[deletions]
: --
: /M. Saggaf
:  alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu
: 
: 
Nadeem Malik, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:55:25 GMT

dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
>Pity all those poor people in the past who didn't realize they were
>reading CFV's and couldn't figure them out. I wonder how we have managed
>to survive. 

I dunno but we did. Is that the issue?

>> Not all of them. Not yet. 
>And just how will you determine when "all of them" have spoken? 

When I see greater than 10000 people posting to news.groups...I'll worry
about it. 

>Are you in contact with "all of them"? 

Heavens, no. I'm not superhuman.

>Dave, you're wearing thin.

Thin what?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Most novices picture themselves as masters - and are content with the
picture. This is why there are so few masters.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nmisra@albert.ee.unlv.edu (Narsimha Misra)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.engr.power
Keywords: power engineering, new group, request for discussion
Reply-To: nmisra@albert.ee.unlv.edu (Narsimha Misra)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 23:48:49 GMT

) In article <Bxty6t.41C@uunet.uu.net> power+@edrc.cmu.edu (Power List) writes:
) >This is a formal Request for Discussion on the creation of a new newsgroup
) >(internet bboard) called "sci.engr.power" (not moderated).
) >
) >PURPOSE
) >  The newsgroup 'sci.engr.power' would be a forum for discussing 
) >  issues related to generation, transmission, distribution, and
) >  consumption of electrical energy.

Put me down as a YES

-misra
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: More fuel for the music reorg debate
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:26:15 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <9211110830.AA12739@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov>, dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
 >I quote the Guidelines:
 > 
 ><Any group creation request which follows these guidelines to a
 >successful result should be honored...except under extraordinary 
 >circumstances.  The reason these are called guidelines and not absolute 
 >rules is that it is not possible to predict in advance what "extraordinary 
 >circumstances" are or how they might arise.>
 >
 >Any of you people who claim that inflexibility is a must (Mr. Maynard),
 >please explain this quote.

Hmmmmmmm..... I guess people who use the net but have no idea what a CFD
(nee RFD) or CFV is are pretty extraordinary. 

Maybe he's got something here.             Nahhhhhhh.




-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
From: tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 23 Nov 1992 03:48:32 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov22.151857.24090@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu writes:
)In article 1e9uc5INNgn3@agate.berkeley.edu, tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) writes:
)>
)>In short, Alan's procedures are by the book, except perhaps for 
)>his self-nomination for moderator.  The idea still rots, however.
)
)Gee Tom, you've kindof put me into a catch-22 situation.  First you
)advocate, no direct, me to post an RFD and further stipulate that ALL
)discussion takes place on news.groups.  With that in mind, where was I
)supposed to begin a discussion as to who would like to be a moderator?

With a feeling that I'm pointing out the blatantly obvious...

news.groups

It's reasonably certain that anyone who doesn't have enough interest in
the subject to read news.groups for a month also doesn't have enough
interest in the subject to be the moderator of a newsgroup.

)Or maybe the interpretation of an RFD could be that it is just a 
)proposal, subject to modification.  So it really doesn't matter
)who originally gets nominated for moderator.

Certainly it is just a proposal, subject to modification.  But note
how many people jumped on you for your apparent self-nomination.  It
wasn't wrong from the standpoint of the Usenet guidelines, but it
certainly got your proposal off to a weak start.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc,alt.adoption,misc.kids,soc.roots
From: leebeau@world.std.com (Lee A Beaudette)
Subject: Re: RFD/CFD: soc.adoption
Keywords: adoption
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:53:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.210102.2029@sunova.ssc.gov> pamela@sscux1.ssc.gov (pamela gurd) writes:
>
>Yes - please create soc.adoption so that more sites can carry it.
>
>	Pam.

Add another YES YES.
-Lee

Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: chandra@cannelloni.cis.ohio-state.edu (B Chandrasekaran)
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:41:41 GMT

In article <1e9kpbINNm5v@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu
                                                     ^^^^^ ------
 (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
  ------      ^^^^^
(Isn't this redundant? ;)

>But God has spoken to us through the Qur'an, and he has told us what
>constitutes a Muslim.  If you disagree with God, it is your problem,
>but don't expect all other Muslims to regard you as one of them...
>

But God has spoken to us through the Qur'an, and he has told us what
constitutes a Muslim.  Ahmadias have read the Qur'an, and believe they
are Muslims.  If you disagree with God, it is your problem, but don't
expect Ahmadia Muslims to agree with you that your interpretation of
the Qur'an is the only correct one.
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:36:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: cas.1992Nov17.143844.21821
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.

If it is shown that enough people want a rec.arts group which has the
word 'fantasy' in it, could we at least make it rec.arts.sf.fantasy ?  
It just doesn't make sense to create a new hierarchy when an existing
should work just fine.  Yes, I know 'but those other guys have their
own, and I want my own, nyah, nyah, nyah...' but the fact of the matter
is that in at least several of those cases those other folks would be 
in the rec.arts.sf if it were not for personality and ego conflicts.
So let's not create more headaches for ourselves.
-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:20:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ek6cvINNikf
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov20.231652.17809@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>If you find a way to eliminate ignorance and bozodom, please
>>tell us about it.  
>
>One way is to try and appeal to those who (by the very label) claim a 
>higher awareness, and ask them for tolerance. 

Tolerance of ignorance and bozodom is not a method to eliminate it.
If you tolerate people who ignore the available documentation and whine
about not knowing how things work, all you get is people who ignore the
available documentation and whine about not knowing.

"Look it up, you will remember it longer."

>But that's not working.

That's right. It won't.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.basic, visual-basic
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:26:45 GMT

cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar) writes:
> As for a separate visual-basic group, I don't (yet) see the point.
> We've seen more postings about VB-DOS than about VB itself on the
> newsgroup.  It makes no sense to create a newsgroup where there's no
> traffic, and I doubt the users will be clamoring for separate groups
> unless there's a substantial amount of traffic that is obviously split
> into different topics.

There is a fair bit of VB traffic in the ms-windows.programmer newsgroups.
Unfortunately they tend to get drowned out -- and VB users intimidated by --
the large volume of C/C++ and Windows SDK-oriented postings.  I'd say that
I see an average of 3 or 4 Visual Basic postings in the Windows groups on
an average day.

> Let me further add that I am maintaining a FAQ posting for
> alt.lang.basic, and will move it to comp.lang.basic if that group gets
> created.  If visual-basic postings go to that group, they will be
> included in my FAQ posting.  Does visual-basic have its own FAQ?  Is
> it a large and active enough group to want and maintain its own FAQ?

The Windows Programmer FAQ (which I maintain) has some VB-oriented material,
and I'm adding more.  Again, it's drowning in a sea of general Windows
material...

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation?
Summary: common sense 1,000,001 Dave Hayes 0
Organization: This space for rent.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 21:16:22 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) takes the horn by the bull:
>dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov lets his tenuous grip on reality slip further:
>
>>Attempts to call for
>>facts and substantiation are just (to me) attempts to stonewall.
>
>"Facts? Facts? We don't want no steenking facts."

Humor in news.groups?  My, my, what is the world coming too?
Thanks, John.  That's certainly one of my favorite movie lines.
But use the whole quote as it really does apply here:

     Facts?                
     We ain't got no facts.
     We don't need no facts.
     I don't have to show you any stinking facts.

I think that pretty much sums up Dave's position.  Attempts to
avoid facts and substantiation are just attempts to stonewall,
to damn near everyone else except Dave Hayes, that is.
-- 
Jan Isley             || Badges?                
jan@bagend.uucp       || We ain't got no badges.
gatech.edu!bagend!jan || We don't need no badges.
(404)434-1335         || I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
Newsgroups: news.groups,sci.physics
From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.solid-state.electronics
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 04:49:49 GMT

In article <BxnGI5.FD5@uunet.uu.net> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
>In observation of the guidelines for usenet group creation a request for
>discussion on creation of sci.solid-state.electronics is being
>cross posted to sci.electronics, sci.physics, and news.announce.newsgroups.
>The name of this group is still open for discussion. Each field of this
>new proposed newsgroup name should be less than 15 characters long, a field
>is the combinations of words between two ".". Also, there should be no bogus
>character such as "&" in the field.
>
>This new newsgroup, which is **not** to be moderated, is to focus on various
>areas of microelectronics, solid states, semiconductors, semiconductor
>devices, lithography, quantum electronics, semiconductor processing
>(such as CVD, MBE, etc...), different IC technologies (such as VLSI,
>ULSI, WSI, 3DI etc..) , digital, AF, RF, MMIC technologies, optical
>components (such as LED, LCD, Lasers), optical fibers and ...
>
>Please, post your support for creation of this newsgroup and any comments
>you might have about this newsgroup to sci.electronics and/or sci.physics.
>
>                     With highest regards,
>                          Babak   Sehari.


Brilliant idea. We desperately need a group like this.

How soon can we have it?

Proposed name will do.
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:04:34 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1ec7ifINNn14@talon.UCS.ORST.EDU> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
Stanley) writes:
> In article <1992Nov13.081117.960@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van  
Huizen) writes:
> >You act as if titles are inconsequential. They aren't. People don't have  
> >an unlimited amount of time to read things. They decide often what to read  
> >based on titles. Titles like "How To Create A New Usenet Newsgroup" hardly  
> >indicate that to know how to vote you must read it.
> 
> Well, maybe that's because you don't need to read it to know how to
> vote? The instructions on how to vote are posted in every CFV.
> 

This is a circular argument. What was being discussed is how to obtain enough  
knowledge to recognize an RFD or CFV and understand its importance. 

> Anyone who saw the title of the document you mention should be able to
> figure out that there is a process for newsgroup creation, which pretty
> well shoots down the idea that people who read n.a.n wouldn't know that
> there was a process.

The specific problems related to your assertion have been dealt with in other  
posts. I'm not going to recapitulate them. If you don't support the overall  
position that there are things that can be done to make documentation and  
education better, fine. There are people that do and work is being done in that  
area. Time will tell if there is enough support for actually implementing the  
changes once they are created. I hope that there is. I'm not terribly  
interested in arguing points that have been raised and answered merely for the  
sake of debate. If you are truly interested in this issue for the issue itself,  
I suggest that you re-read the related posts. If you have a new point to  
discuss, by all means bring it up.

There are more constructive things that we can both be doing with our time.




-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:21:07 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1dujprINNbo7@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>, by randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall):
>    1) AFTER the discussion period, if it has been determined that a new
>    group is
>    really desired, a name and charter are agreed upon, and it has been
>    determined whether the group will be moderated and if so who will
>    moderate it, a call for votes may be posted to news.announce.newgroups"
 
> I don't think that this group is "really desired" by anyone except
> Bruce.

Be careful, he would make the point that it is really desired *by him*.  
(And Dave Hayes would probably call this a valid argument :-)

Fun aside, I do not recall anybody except Bruce speaking out in favor
of this group.  A group has been proposed whose role is already filled
by others.  The lack of exactly this new group does appears to be felt
by hardly anyone and both name and charter are subject of (IMO)
justified criticism.  (I do not know whether the discussion is still
raving about the moderation criteria, because I try to avoid the posts
discussing them.)  In summary, none of the criteria for a vote are
satisfied.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:33:37 GMT



Mr Shakil, why are you a person of contradictions?  On the one hand you
champion the principle of the right to practice freely our faith, and
at the same time you tell Ahmadi Muslims to change their very name, because
you have a problem with it! 

If a person says he is a Muslim and believes in the kalima, There is no God
but Allah and Muhmammad is the Messenger of Allah, he is a Muslim.  No ifs,`
ands, or buts.  In the end, it is only Allah who knows.
So stop playing God please!

Dr Tahir Ijaz, M.D.
-- 
=============        ======     ============      ==       ========
     ||                ||            ||         //  \\          // 
     ||                ||            //        ========       //
     ||       0      ======     =====        //        \\  ========   M.D.
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Elitism rears it's ugly head
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:51:05 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <5952@balrog.ctron.com> smith@ctron.com writes:
>>There are people who like Fantasy and not Science fiction. They may
>>not realize they are welcome in rec.arts.sf.*
>
>Then they should learn the net better.

  DIE ELITIST SCUM!  (Hey, if Hayes can do it, so can I.)
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:48:35 GMT

In article <Bxv4LD.1z6@apollo.hp.com> @apollo.HP.COM (Jennifer E. Levine) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.102155.14072@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>|> In article <Bxty6p.40F@uunet.uu.net> pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden) writes:
>|> >Proposed Newsgroup's Name
>|> >=========================
>|> > rec.arts.fantasy
>|> 
>|> This is covered by rec.arts.sf.written. During last years reorganisation
>|> is was hashed out sufficiently, that:
>|> 
>|> 	a) sf in this context stands for speculative fiction
>|> 	   and thus contains fantasy
>|> 	b) nobody could agree on a dividing line between
>|> 	   science fiction and fantasy anyway
>|> 
>|> In summary: there is no need.
>
>I have read your responses to this RFD. It is all well and good to
>say "Last year we all decided to use SF to mean speculative fiction."
>But, I don't think it is obvious. I think of that hierarcy as Science
>Fiction. 
>
>There are people who like Fantasy and not Science fiction. They may
>not realize they are welcome in rec.arts.sf.*

But most people will read both. If the majority of the audience reads both
or tolerates both, it's better to keep them together.

A scan of available news groups would only produce two logical places to
discuss fantasy: rec.arts.books and rec.arts.sf.*. (well, there are the
alt.fan groups, but...) Given those two choices, where would you discuss
the new Guy Gavriel Kay novel? Most, IMHO, would choose rec.arts.sf.*.
(Your answer doesn't matter, both are appropriate.)

The problem with creating rec.arts.fantasy is that it creates a divide
that the community doesn't usually worry about. Most bookstores stock
fantasy and science fiction in the same location, most cons contain both,
most people read both. The minority of people who are solely fantasy or
solely science fiction have learned to live with this commonality.
-- 
Stephen Graham
graham@cs.washington.edu	 uw-beaver!june!graham