From: 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque)
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 05:36:04 GMT

In article <1hbcvdINNros@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac N. Truder) writes:

> given.  I think you just misunderstood Howard's comments.

I think that anybody who comes out and says "comics are shit" is pretty
clear to understand. Rereading the interview, he didn't even have a high
regard for his own work. Worth thinking about. Facts, damn straight!

> As for whether Jack got his 2000+ pages of art back or not

He wanted 13000 and only got 2000. A bad deal - and just think, the lawyers
screwed an old man AND got him to sign away any interest in the characters
he drew.

>, if he
> didn't, then he has a case to force them to return the pages, nothing
> more.

Damn staight he does!

>  Unless he can get a lawyer to represent him for free, it's
> probably not worth his trouble because it's not like he can reprint the
> pages anyway when Marvel owns the copyright.  They'd be something to
> give to his kids, maybe, but little else.

Still, it's his art and for an artist that's pretty special.

> I guess Chaykin realizes that one has to work just to make a living --
> at least once in a while.  Something that seems to escape you, and those
> with similar artistic ideals.

Hey, I like Chaykin's stuff, but he really has gone to pot after he abandonned
comics and went for movie/tv scripts (the Flash was neat). As a matter of
fact, I do work for a living, and won't be owing $40000 when I get out
of university. Nuff said. 

>  > from all of the companies. Comics = toothpaste = construction work
>  > = blow jobs = beer = shit.

> Well, once again you're falling into this tired old argument that
> absorbs too many artists, critics, and everybody else from construction
> workers to couch potatoes.  "Is it art??"

Actually, almost anything is art. But very little is good art. Architecture
is art. And so are comics.

> "What's the relevance to society??"

Who cares about society? They wouldn't know a good comic if you shoved one
in their face.

> "How can I justify that I spend my time reading these comics
> when I should be out fighting fires and saving the world or something?"

I thought that this was a job for..... Superman!

> Comics readers seem to have this obsessive desire to somehow "justify"
> the medium.  If they can't come up with what they consider to be a
> "valid reason" why they ENJOY reading XYZ Comic, they stop reading it,
> start looking for "more mature comics" and start putting down XYZ,
> whether they used to kind of like it or not.  Comics are art, okay, I'll
> accept that.  What I WON'T accept is this idea that somehow art is above
> all else in society, that it must have some massive universal relevance,
> and that the world somehow owes artists a living, respect etc. just
> because they're creative types.

I'll agree, nobody owes anybody a living - that being said, this industry
is not artist friendly and sooner or later, someone is going to wake up
and smell the coffee. What we need is something for everybody. I hope
that the next time the Indie boom hits, they will get some real talent.
Last time - well, just think about Reagan's Raiders and tell me about
independent b&w comics.

> My point being -- comics are art, and they're also toothpaste, beer, and
> $1.75 blow jobs.  If you LIKE the blow job, it's probably worth the
> $1.75 -- why struggle with these idealistic concepts of life and art?

Comics and comic companies should treat the medium with real dignity.
After all, the audience never changes. The people who love the medium
today will probably still love the medium 5 years in the future. Just
think, all of the kids who grew up on the Fantastic Four brought about
the direct distributing revolution that effectively skirted the Comics
Code Authority. We have more power than we think. And as the market
shrinks every year with more frustrated fans fed up with company games
- our voice will be even louder.

> If you can't justify to yourself why you enjoy reading comics books, go
> out and save lives or something.  Just remember your activities are
> equally meaningless when you do that, because we're all dying anyway.

What a happy thought for the holidays!

>  I
> say make the decisions that keep you happiest.  I feel for Jack Kirby
> and all the other comics creators, but that's about all I can say for
> them.  Perceived past injustices are not enough to raise my ire against
> Marvel (especially considering I rarely buy their comics anyway).  Call
> me unprincipled and heartless, fine -- you're a bleeding heart crusader.
> Which is more noble, and which gets less ulcers, you tell me.  I'm gonna
> go read a comic book.

Marvel in the long run will still be the success it is today, primarily
because of low awareness of Marvel characters outside the medium (and
not even the Hulk on the SciFi Channel can change that). Perceived past
injustices? No, just lessons for future artists. People mistake
bleeding hearts for cynics. I'm just one cynic who is armed to the teeth,
and ready for battle. 

Why is it that every time I trash Marvel/DC with some historical nugget,
you have to jump in and tell me how threatening you perceive my posts.
This industry has to grow up, and before it does, so should its fans.

-- 
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING***
**  John LaRocque          "If you're the new messiah... I'm going to be   **
**  marshall.law@uwo.ca    the one to drive in the nails"   MARSHALL LAW   **
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING*FEAR*AND*LOATHING***
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc