From: verma@pfeast.enet.dec.com (Virendra Verma)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Do we need a religion?
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:23:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1h597pINN29g@sal-sun62.usc.edu>, fafat@sal-sun62.usc.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes...
>	The problem is what one means by "realizable". You tell me what
>	*you* mean by it. I've told you what it means to me.

	Realizable within one's own experiences. An inquiry into the
	truth consists of three stages - belief, understanding and
	realization.

	Belief is what is heard and constitute a starting point for an inquiry.
	For example, the sum of angles of a triangle is 180 degrees.

	Understanding the truth is arguing about the belief, proving through
	other known facts and beliefs. Here a proof constitutes that does
	not contradict our known experiences and observations. That is
	about it. The purpose here is just understanding the belief system.
	It is still the belief. For example, one can go about proving that
	the sum of angles of a triangle is 180 degrees. It is still a
	belief.

	Realization is experiencing the truth for oneself. For example,
	I can actually measure the sum of all three angles of a number of 
	triangles and see for myself that the sum of angles is indeed 
	180 degrees.

	All these steps are the basis of science as well as that of religion.
	Stage 1, in science, may not be well known but is implicitly there.
	Second is purely proofs and logic. The third is clearly experiments.

	In religion, belief through scriptures and intuition are well known
	as the first stage. Most religious people stop at that and do not go
	beyond 'turtle' to identify dogma from truth. Understanding requires
	to question the scriptures and throw the trash that is not logical
	to the mind. The aspirant talks and argues about truth of scriptures
	and refines his/her understanding of meta-physical truth. It is only
	through the practice of Yoga that the aspirant relaizes the truth
	of scriptures for himself. He has to raise his consciousness to
	a supramental level where he can see the truth of scriptures.
	Meditation of the Yoga is that state of mind where the aspirant
	enjoys the true knowledge.

> 
>>	I can't prove
>>	to you the Vedic knowledge but I can discuss its logistics that makes
>>	sense to a rational mind. 
> 
>	depends again on what you mean by "rational". You've never answered
>	my question about that turtle. Is the turtle idea rational? 

	Yes turtle idea is not rational according to what I know through
	my own arguments. A belief that cannot stand logical and rational
	argument is indeed a dogma.

	Rational to me is something which does not contradict my own
	experiences, (realizable or/and provable as in stage 2 above)
	of truth. I would rather hesitate to generalize my realizations
	and would prefer to keep it personal.

	But, sometimes it is important to know why such dogmatic practices
	came into being. There might be a wonderful idea behind all these
	dogmas. Closing the mind from dogma is not scientific either. Cultures
	and religions have long history and it is equally important to 
	capture the temporal mentality which goes behind in building these
	dogmatic practices.
> 
>>	No bickering please. Let us get into serious discussions. I am
>>	changing my signature so that you guys may feel confortable. It is
> 
>	You will notice the "unofffensive" nature of this posting :). Let's
>	negotiate :)
> 
>	FFT
>no disclaimers this time :)

	Thanks I appreciate it very much.

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-- Virendra Verma
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian