HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjohnson@netcom.Netcom.COM (Mark Johnson)
Subject: reader count
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:02:32 GMT

Have a look at the news.* newsgroups.  Every month a summary is
posted of all kinds of statistics: # of articles, # of readers,
traffic flow by site, etc etc.  Everything you could imagine
when dreaming of a beancounter-on-methamphetamine who just
learned how to program in C++ :-).

The news software at each site, looks at each user's .newsrc
file.  It sees which groups are subscribed to, and counts
that person as a "reader" if s/he is subscribed to that
group.  It's imprecise but (in my opinion) only overestimates
by 1.5 to 2X at most.

There are hundreds of thousands of users at sites that carry
news feeds, so 13,000 is not surprising; I would bet that
the most popular newsgroup (alt.politics.abortion) has
200,000 readers.
From: barnett@grymoire.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett)
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: Re: Penn & Teller & Exposure.
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:23:53 GMT
	<1992Nov14.130828.24894@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Reply-To: barnett@crdgw1.ge.com
Organization: GE Corp. R & D, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Nov14.130828.24894@news.acns.nwu.edu> mjamroz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Margaret Jamroz) writes:

>   You may want to check out their new book, Penn & Tellers, How To Play With
>   Your Food.  They explain in some detail about their feelings regarding
>   exposing "secrets."  

Can you give us a summary of their comments?
--
Bruce Barnett <barnett@crd.ge.com> uunet!crdgw1!barnett
From: norm@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Michael A Ferraris)
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: Penn & Teller
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:19:31
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1992Nov14.130828.24894@news.acns.nwu.edu> <WVOSS.38.0@novell.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: WVOSS@novell.com's message of Sat, 14 Nov 1992 21:40:42 GMT


Penn and Teller are coming to town and are performing about 5 minutes
away from me. 

I was wondering if anyone has seen their new tour and could tell me
how good a show it will be.  I haven't seen them in a while and I'm
wondering if they're still as good and entertaining as they used to
be.

Thanks in advance.

					Mike
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: gold@imp.sim.es.com (Bruce Gold)
Subject: Re: To reveal or not to reveal...
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:11:50 GMT

My arithmetic says that .8% of 190,000 is 1520, not 13,000.  Never-the-less, as a
non-magician, I still support the centuries-old tradition of magicians using
personal discretion in what when and to whom secrets are revealed.  Even those
expressing the extreme views on this issue have seemed thoughtful on the matter.
I have noticed no exception to this.  Bravo to each of you.
-- 
				Bruce Gold
				   Utah
From: chamber@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (Craig Chamberlain)
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: market for Silk King Studios silks
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:48:50 GMT
Organization: Schlumberger CAD/CAM at Ann Arbor, MI


Can anyone advise me on how to determine the fair market price for the
magician's silks that used to be sold by Silk King Studios?  These
were the very best silks, sold by Harold Rice, including the six foot
square picture silks.  They are not the silks sold today by Tannen's
or Abbott's, etc., having not been made in several years now, but are
sold in the used magic market, and some may be collector's items.
Thanks for any help.

Email responses preferred (my Usenet feed doesn't always work).
-- 
(My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer.)
Craig Chamberlain, Software Engineer, Applicon Schlumberger
Ann Arbor, Michigan  chamber@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com  (313) 995-6310
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: sz7044027@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
Subject: Discussion of magic tricks.
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 05:59:34 GMT

Hello,

        My name is Victor. I live in that small island somewhere in South
East Asia called Singapore, where they fine you for not flushing the toilet
and ban the consumption of chewing gum !! Anyway, I am very interested in
magic. I started around Primary Three, and have been at it on and off for
about ten years now.

        A couple of problems for me: there are very few shops around here
that deals with magic tricks. I know only of two. What's worst, most of the
tricks they sell are Tenyo tricks, which are quite kiddish and which I
don't particularly fancy.

        Solution: I tried mail-order from agencies in the States such as
the very famous Hank Lee's Magic Factory. But after the last parcel got
lost on the way (which cost me about S$160), I gave up for a while.

        I am particularly interested in close-up magic which requires a
minimal of equipment but have stunning effects. Examples are Card Wrap,
Crazy Man's Handcuff, Misled etc.

        I am sincerely looking for people who are also interested in magic
to correspond with me. I hope to exchange magic tricks and hopefully learn
more from people in the know. If you are interested, please email me at
IN%"SZ7044027@NTUVAX". Thanx a bundle. Bye !!

                                                                --[ Vic ]--
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: presto@bach.udel.edu (Jason Y Nocks)
Subject: Re: Misled
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:58:50 GMT

	For anyone who doesn't know, Misled is the pencil through the dollar
bill effect that DC presented two tv specials ago. It's a pretty good effect
for around $20 at your local magic shop if you are into farther-than-close-up-
closer-than-parlor magic. It just can't be seen well enough without the video
cameras, and doesn't look good enough close-up for me. Also, I have broken
two of the gimics in about a year or so. They are kinda fragile.
	Any more questions I MIGHT answer in email (method, etc, although the
effect is commercial, and if you want to know how it's done maybe you can go
out and BUY it). That's all for now.
Magically,
-Jason Nocks
-- 
| presto@brahms.udel.edu       | A senior E.E. at the U of D with a side order
| presto@freezer.cns.udel.edu  | of stage and close-up magic. The views
| nocks@snow-white.ee.udel.edu | expressed are exclusively my own (etc).
From: marks@castle.ed.ac.uk (Mark Steyn)
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: How is this trick done?
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:35:50 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Edinburgh University

First off, I am relatively new to this group and read it more to indulge
my curiosity, than out of a desire to practice magic.

I realise that there must be some debate about about whether it 'proper'
to divulge 'secrets of the trade' to the public or the net. 
Nevertheless I am going to ask how a card trick I saw recently was done.

The trick is as follows:

The magician/whomever takes a pack of cards, unmarked from what I could
gather.  He selects a volunteer/victim and places two cards, red an
black, face in front of him/her.

The magician then proceeds to pick cards one by one from various
positions in the deck, each time holding it in front of the volunteer/victim,
asking him/her to guess whether the card is red or black, and places it face
down on top of red/black cards selected earlier depending on the colour.  
Only the magician sees actual colour of the cards.

After so many cards have been placed in each pile, the magician turns
over both piles to reveal, to the volunteer/victims surprise, that he/she
has guessed the colour of the cards with 100% accuracy.


I would be grateful if anybody could enlighten me as to how the trick is
performed.  Hints will be accepted happily too :-)

	Mark



-- 
? Look within the Hearts of mortal men and see, ? Mark Steyn :          ?
? The Hopes, Dreams and Wishes of a world,      ? marks@castle.ed.ac.uk ?
? Guarded under Lock and Key.                   ? mpjs@dcs.ed.ac.uk     ?
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:30:56 EST
From: Sleight of Hans <HCM100@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: Re: DAVID COPPERFIELD IN CHIC
Distribution: world

>
>-> 5-6 "new" tricks I haven't seen before.  Anyways, I'd like
>-> to know what CD or CD's most of the Phil Collins music was
>-> from during the show (and any other artist if known).  It
>-> fit very well I thought.
>

99% of Copperfield's music can be found on Peter Gabriel's album SECURITY.
The rest is assorted Phil Collins, most from his recent album ...BUT SERIOUSLY,
and a few other miscellaneous groups for fill-in.


| O |                                                                   | O |
|   | Hans C. Masing          "By all means marry: If you get a good    |   |
| O | HCM100 @ PSUVM.psu.edu   wife, you'll become happy; if you get    | O |
|   | HCM100 @ CBA1.psu.edu    a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." |   |
| O | Penn State MIS Dept.                           - Socrates         | O |
|   |                                                                   |   |
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: pbray@lust.reed.edu (Peter Bray)
Subject: dime trick
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:41:52 GMT


Did anyone see Penn & Teller on Letterman that one time in which Teller  
put a dime in his mouth and produced it from under his eyelid?  For some  
reason I was led to believe that no tricks were involved here; that it was  
just some bizarre freakish thing he could do.  True?

--
"Art is the Tree of Life; Science is the Tree of Death."
-- W. Blake
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: presto@chopin.udel.edu (Jason Y Nocks)
Subject: Re: Call for votes: To reveal or not to reveal...
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:00:11 GMT

First off, I want to thank Bruce who is doing an excellent job with the magic
list. I don't read my mail or this newsgroup as often as I would like. My
senior year as an E.E. major (Comp. Eng. concentration) has been Hell. All I
can say about how condescending it sounds to say that Magicians know what the
audience wants is that due to the nature of magic, there's no way to keep
performing magic if you tell the audience how a trick works before you do it.
How many people would read alt.magic and then go see a show only to be
completely let down doesn't matter. The fact that some people would is all
that matters. There is a difference between making an effect available if you
take the time to go down to a shop and purchase it (sometimes you can't even
figure out the directions) and posting the information where anyone across the
entire world can just log onto a computer and read in detail exactly how the
method works. The fact that most people are too lazy to search for something
is vitally important to the argument. Most people are lazy to a point. You
have to think about what effort people are willing to expend to figure out a
trick. I personally don't see how you can argue that less people who are
already logged onto a computer and reading newsgroups would make the effort`
to subscribe to another newsgroup than travel to the library or local magic
shop and hunt down the info.
	I'll stop raving in a moment. I am only 21 years old and have only
done serious stage work for the last 3-4 years, but I have spent a lot of
time and energy hunting down methods and other performers. I have not had to
spend incredible amounts of money, mostly time and energy. If you are not
willing to spend the same time and energy, then magic is not for you! If
the SECRETS to magic were published everywhere then they wouldn't be SECRETS,
would they?! If you think about the natural reaction to a well executed and
well performed state-of-the-art magic effect, that reaction is How did he do
that? That is the desired reaction. But what you don't want to do is tell
the audience member, because you destroy that reaction. That is what people
mean when they say, you don't want to know how it's done. Then it's not magic.
If everyone knew, it would be skillfull manipulation at best. End of spewage
and fuming. Calming. Calm.
Thanks for the resources.
Magically,
Jason Nocks
-- 
| presto@brahms.udel.edu       | A senior E.E. at the U of D with a side order
| presto@freezer.cns.udel.edu  | of stage and close-up magic. The views
| nocks@snow-white.ee.udel.edu | expressed are exclusively my own (etc).
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: stevens@sigi.cs.colorado.edu (Curt Stevens)
Subject: Re: reader count
Organization: Universtiy of Coloardo, Boulder
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:44:25 GMT

In article <MJOHNSON.92Nov17090232@netcom.Netcom.COM> mjohnson@netcom.Netcom.COM (Mark Johnson) writes:
>
>The news software at each site, looks at each user's .newsrc
>file.  It sees which groups are subscribed to, and counts
>that person as a "reader" if s/he is subscribed to that
>group.  It's imprecise but (in my opinion) only overestimates
>by 1.5 to 2X at most.
>

Actually, participation in these surveys is voluntary (at least at the
site level; users may not get a choice). Not every machine running news
software sends data in. The process is reasonable, but with the advent of
cross mounted file systems and users with logins on multiple machines, it
is very possible for the same user to be reported several times from the
same computing site.

As part of my PHd thesis (I'm defending Dec. 1st) I conducted an empirical
study comparing users' .newsrc files to the number of newsgroups they
actually read. It is true that many people read approx 50% of the
newsgroups marked as subscribed in their newsrc. However, it is also true
that many people subscribe to hundreds of newsgroups while only reading 5
or six of them. On the other hand, there were almost NO users that were
reading more than 50% of the newsgroups subscribed to in their newsrc.
The ones whose subscription rates actually corresponded to their reading
habits were mostly new to Usenet and had not had the opportunity to "get
tired" of many newsgroups. Getting tired of a newsgroup does not seem to
lead to unsubscribing.

I believe that the estimates posted to the net are grossly exaggerated in
many cases. This too is only opinion, but at least its an educated guess.
If the net says 13,000 people read a newsgroup that is relatively new you
are probably getting reasonably good information. However, the longer a
group has been around, the more subscribers that are actually not
reading it any more and the less accurate the estimates will be. The
errors only happen on one side because there are not people who do not
subscribe that are reading the group.

Does this make any sense?

========================================================================
|Curt Stevens   (303) 492-1218 | / |arpa:stevens@sigi.cs.colorado.edu  |
|Univ. of Colorado, Boulder    |o o|uucp:ncar!sigi.cs.colorado.edu!... |
|Computer Sci. Dept. ECOT 7-7  | | |-----------------------------------|
|Campus Box 430                |\_/| I contradict myself? Very well, I |
|Boulder, Colorado 80309  USA  |   | contradict myself. - Walt Whitman |
========================================================================
-- 

========
| Curt |
========
From: barnett@grymoire.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett)
Newsgroups: alt.magic
Subject: Re: To reveal or not to reveal...
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:54:52 GMT
	<BxM5pC.Ixs@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
	<BARNETT.92Nov13105053@grymoire.crd.ge.com>
	<1992Nov17.035955.6127@r-node.gts.org>
Reply-To: barnett@crdgw1.ge.com
Organization: GE Corp. R & D, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Nov17.035955.6127@r-node.gts.org> wayne@r-node.gts.org (Wayne) writes:

> In the grand scheme of things 13,000 people isn't very many considering the
> number of people in the world. It's probably also a very small percentage of
> the number of people who watched David Copperfield's last TV special.

I think it is significant when you consider the ratio of magicians to
non-magicians. What percentage of the readers of alt.magic are
magicians? 1%? 

The magic mailing list (magic-request@crdgw1.ge.com) has 150 "members." The
magic bulletin boards have 200-400 members.  
If this newsgroup becomes more interesting, the number of readers will
grow, and the percentage of magicians/non-magicians will be smaller.

Also - a lot of people who read alt.magic are co-workers of the
magicians who read it. I don't want to do a show and have someone say
"Oh - I read about that on alt.magic. This is how he did it....."
and then proceed to discuss the method in detail. I will no longer be
able to perform that routine once this happens. Magic does not thrive
if it is commonly known how something is done. 

>   Generally the discussion of to reveal or not to reveal seems a bit silly.
>   What people are saying is that it's not OK for me to post how to do a trick
>   but it's OK for me to write a mass market paperback revealing tricks or
>   go into a magic shop and buy the trick.

If you think the quality of the magic in those mass-produced books are
generally high, you are wrong. In most cases, the material is weak.
Most magicians aren't impacted with the material revealed in these books.

Sure - you can go into a magic store and buy a trick. This takes
effort. Consider alt.magic. All it takes is typing the letter 'y' and
you can read the postings. Post a question and maybe you can learn
about how a trick you saw was done. Then you can tell all of your
friends!

Don't get me wrong. I encourage exchange of information among
magicians. I just don't think we should do it in the middle of a mall
with thousands of people walking around eavesdropping.

People don't want secrets. They think they do, but they really want mystery.

--
Bruce Barnett <barnett@crd.ge.com> uunet!crdgw1!barnett
Newsgroups: alt.magic
From: geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:18:06 GMT
Organization: Roller Coaster fanatic with no hope for a cure
Subject: Re: Penn & Teller & Exposure.
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Organization: Roller Coaster fanatic with no hope for a cure
Keywords: 

mjamroz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Margaret Jamroz) writes:
>Okay.  P&T write in their book:
>
>"...If you want credit for being clever, you should proably not tell.  Good
>tricks usually have dopey, unimpressive explanations..."

Agreed.  Like has been discussed in the other thread about the
disappoint of most people when they learn the ``secret.''

>"...If you teach a trick, go all the way.  Make sure your friend actually
>learns to do it.  Rehearse until she/he does the trick well.  There are
>already more than enough incompetent magicians without your adding to the
>problem."
>
>"...if you prefer to hoard your secrets and impede the advacement of Humankind
>though knowledge, that's your right."

Penn & Teller are always held up as the ultimate example of ``Open''
magic, but I don't think they're talking here about posting secrets to
the net -- they're talking about *teaching* someone else magic.  This is
entirely different, IMHO.

>And on the subject of what to do when a person keeps bugging you about how an
>effect was done:
>
>"If they still hound you, pretend to give in.  Take the curious person into a
>quiet corner.  Bring your lips to his or her ear.  Then scream at the top of
>your lungs, "IT'S A TRICK!!!!"

But if someone on the net does this, they get flamed to a crisp.  Often
by the people upholding Penn & Teller as an example of the sort of kind
souls we all ought to be in revealing secrets.  Go figure.

Geoff

-- 
Geoff Allen          \  Computers are useless.  
uunet!pmafire!geoff   \  They can only give you answers.
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \		-- Pablo Picasso
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,soc.culture.jewish
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Jews in Banks
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 04:05:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.201925.1888@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>In article <sffcu.16.722039882@cuais01.cc.columbia.edu>, sffcu@cuais01.cc.columbia.edu (Stew Feuerstein) writes:
>> 	You fail to mention why David Steiner was fired.  The article I read 
>> stated that he was fired for making the whole thing up.  In fact David 
>> Steiner and AIPAC has no connection to the Clinton campaign.  Mr Steiner was 
>> merely trying to make AIPAC seem more important by lying about his influence.
>
>Maybe.  Maybe not.  I read Steiner claimed he was exaggerating after
>he had been caught in an obviously embarrassing situation.  Apparently
>Harry Katz, a member of AIPAC, thought things were out of control or
>I doubt he would have conducted his own personal 'sting operation',
>thereby putting his own good name on the line.  I can't envision
>the manager of a previously successful lobby building its influence
>on lies and exaggeration.

You've never run a lobby, then.  That's precisely how lobbies build
their influence -- by making themselves seem more influential than
they'll ever hope to be.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.individualism,alt.censorship,misc.headlines,soc.culture.usa,misc.activism.progressive
From: ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W)
Subject: Anti-Establishment Coalition
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:40:00 GMT

Reading this newsgroup for any length of time is enough to make a person crazy
(paranoid?) after a while.  Birchers, Discordians, Populists, followers of
Gritz, LaRouche, Garrison, students of the CFR, the Trilateralist Commission,
the Bilderbergs, the Club of Rome, the Committee of 300, fascists, neo-Nazis,
white supremacists, Christian Identity people, etc. ad nauseum.  The list goes
on almost forever.

What do all these groups have in common?  They all feel some power clique has
gotten excessive power in the nation and the world, right?  Why don't all these
people set aside their differences temporarily and unite to oppose a common
enemy?  Imagine the noise that could be made if all the splinter groups on both
the left and the right were to oppose the
Establishment/Insiders/military-industrial complex/Master
Conspiracy/Illuminati/etc. blah, blah together.

Or maybe it is the plan of the masterplanners to keep us splintered?  Perhaps
some of these groups are fronts for the groups they are supposed to oppose?  If
they can keep the opposition divided, they have already won.  What do you
think?

Unite, lovers of liberty!!!  Put aside your differences to unite against a
common foe.  How could this be done?  Has anybody suggestions?


Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Bo Gritz
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:25:00 GMT

In article <1e7ab7INNa9m@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aq817@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Steve Crocker) writes:
>I think it is an extremely destructive practice to falsely tag one's
>political opponents with terms like "racist", "Facist" , and 
>"anti-semitic" in order to avoid dealing with the substance of
>their program, and I will continue to the best of my ability to 
>criticize this practice and support its victims.

I agree.  Which is why I don't call George Bush "racist," or "fascist,"
or "anti-Semitic."

I only call racists and anti-Semites like Bo Gritz racist and anti-Semitic.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy