From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Spoken Like a True ProLifer
Distribution: usa
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:52:28 CST

In article <C0K9LD.Mwx@ra.nrl.navy.mil> lebow@psl.nrl.navy.mil writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.173938.15298@hemlock.cray.com> mon@cray.com (Muriel
>Nelson) writes:
>>In article <C0GEnt.E5I@ra.nrl.navy.mil> lebow@psl.nrl.navy.mil writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan5.143250.8078@hemlock.cray.com> mon@cray.com (Muriel
>Nelson)
>>>writes:
>
>>>                                                    If the unborn has some
>>>inherent value, however, why should the that value be determined by the
>>>mother's value?  At best, you can only conclude that the mother's inherent
>>>value outweighs that of the fetus - one factor may be that the unborn is
>inside
>>>her.  
>>
>>You noticed!  Not just 'may be', though.
>>It is an inherent condition of fetal existence that it _is_
>>inside a woman.  She's just as much a person as you are, and
>>has just as much right to say how her body may be used as you
>>do. 
>Muriel, if I could be pregnant I should not have that right either.  

We'll see how you respond to Heather's proposal.
>
>> If you look at the fetus and you think its situation
>>justifies the automatic remaval of rights from women, you don't
>>value women as much as I do.
>
>Two things: 
>
> One, I think the way rights are now partitioned out is wrong.  Namely, all for
>the mother, none for the unborn.  To remove unjustly 'recognized rights'
>doesn't make me value a women less than you, only the unborn more than you do. 
>
If you think women have any rights right now that are 
not justly ours, you _do_ value us less than I do.
I value the unborn both less and more than you do.
I don't think it's such an awful thing if the woman
carrying the fetus has some say in whether a given
pregnancy continues.  Just as I think it's probably
for the best that some pregnancies that are not going
well abort spontaneously, I think it's for the best
if a woman obtains an abortion where she is unwilling
to do her part to ensure a healthy baby, by eating
right and avoiding drugs.

> Two - do you hold the same opinion of the millions of women who feel as I do?

Now _that's_ an interesting question.  The phrase,
'Uncle Tomasita' was coined by a friend of mine some
years ago, though you'd have to have visited Santa Fe
in order to fully appreciate it.  I think that women
who oppose abortion are afraid of reproductive/sexual
freedom, and uncomfortable with the rate at which gender
roles have been changing in our society.  I do tend to
be a bit gentler with pro-lifers who've given birth, 
even when they act just awful as Suzanne has done here
recently, for the simple reason that they are not asking 
others to do something they themselves have not done.
(There are plenty of other folk who do a great job of
flaming Suzanne, anyway.)

>
>>>     For me, in some cases, say where the mother's life is threatened, this
>>>may be sufficient.  
>>
>>This magnanimous concession is little comfort to me.
>>There is always a nonzero risk of death for the woman.
>
>Yes I agree, life is not fair.  This is no magnanimous concession - it just
>follows from my equal respect for mother and child.

Sarcasm was on.  I don't appreciate the demotion.
>>
>>>                    To say 'he call my uterus a place, that woman hater!' is
>>>hyperbole.
>>
>>No.  Actually, I'd call it active listening.
>
>That is perky.  Didn't I just see you refer to the "woman's body" as "a sewage
>system"?  I think I'd stick with "place" if I were you.

No, that was someone else.  And he was pointing out
that that's one of the uses to which a woman's body 
is put.  One of the reasons he thinks we should have 
some say in the matter.

muriel
standard disclaimer

Newsgroups: talk.abortion