HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Whites don't understand)
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 20:55:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.014819.8290@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (Kinder and Gentler Jim) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.202037.6176@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.225505.28047@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (Kinder and Gentler Jim) writes:
>>>This is the only part of Mike's post I'd like to comment on.  I think people
>>>make the "mine is worse than yours" arguments in order to point out that the
>>>degree of racism you encountered matters.  Racism is not a binary variable.
>>
>>Are we to assume, then, that YOUR experiences should be trivialized, because,
>>after all, Asians weren't treated as badly as blacks or Indians?
>
>If I were to walk into soc.culture.african.american or a hypothetical
>soc.culture.native.american right in the middle of a thread where a Black
>or Native American person was talking about their encounters with racism, and
>then try to brush off *their* experiences by saying I've encountered racism
>too, then ***YES***, I most certainly *WOULD* expect my experiences to be
>trivialized in that newsgroup.  And good for me!!  I'd look awfully stupid
>trying to compare some of my troubles with theirs.
>

  Yep, and just because I'm married to a person who fits in the
  Native American and Hispanic category doesn't make me an expert
  to go marching into their newsgroups and flaunt my ignorance of
  their experiences.  I also don't go there to try and gain sympathy
  for the stuff I've experienced while brushing off their experiences.

>But I don't do stupid things like that.

  Neither do I.  When I read soc.culture.african.american I remember that
  I am a guest and read it to open my mind, not to preach to them on
  things I know nothing about.
>
>
>But ain't it funny how I haven't seen a single African American person come
>into this newsgroup during this or previous threads and try to downplay
>claims of racism by Asian American people here.  Gee, I wonder why...
>

  Simple.  Because they aren't so stupid!

>>>Again, it's not a perfect correlation, but it's something I can't help but
>>>notice.  And it's something I'll definitely consider if I ever have kids
>>>someday and I want to know where to raise them.
>>
>>Unless you're in a war zone, "how" is more important than "where".

  Look, don't tell Jim how to raise his kids or where.  Don't define
  what a war zone is for him either.  He knows one when he sees one.
  Since when are you an expert on raising Asian American kids?
>
Xref: sparky soc.culture.asian.american:8813 soc.culture.african.american:9193 ca.politics:7436
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Whites don't understand)
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 19:48:00 GMT

In article <23603@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj,  curmudgeon and clueless old white boy) writes:
>
>You can be proud of yourself, WITHOUT demanding that Joe W
>stop being a race traitor.  What's good for YOU isn't necessarily
>good for him, and you're arguing otherwise, based only on
>race. In otherwords, you're arguing in a racist fashion.

  You're putting words in my mouth.  I never called Joe W
  a race traitor.  I just clarified that he would never
  consider himself Asian American.  So I accept that he
  considers himself Chinese.  Doesn't seem like he's a
  race traitor to me, does it to you?

  Clare
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Whites don't understand)
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 17:06:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.202037.6176@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.225505.28047@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (Kinder and Gentler Jim) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug18.150104.1415@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>
>Are we to assume, then, that YOUR experiences should be trivialized, because,
>after all, Asians weren't treated as badly as blacks or Indians?

>Right. So analyze the degree to which YOU'VE encountered it, compare to, eg,
>American Indian or black discrimination.

  No because this newsgroup is soc.culture.asian.american and we're
  here to discuss experiences that happened to Asians.  There are
  newsgroups to discuss Native Americans and Blacks.  
>
>>When you mentioned your experiences in Japan, I think it touched the "cynical"
>>button in some of the posters (like Andy and Dwight) who have encountered
>>life in Japan and know that the experiences of a white person there is in
>>general not as "bad" as that of an Asian American here.  Think of them as

  Who cares?  We're not talking about soc.culture.japan here.
>
>Tell that to my wife, who couldn't get several apartments she wanted because
>she married a foriegner. We have yet to be denied anything here because of
>my wife's race.
>
>Also, a friend of mine, married to a white American now lives near his 
>parents in Kobe. He has been denied several apartments because his wife
>is white (and yes, he is a Japanese citizen).

  So racism exists in Japan.  It is relevant to Japanese Americans.
  Can't people separate Japanese from Japanese Americans?  Geez....
>
>
>>There are many things I've learned from this newsgroup, but one thing that
>>sticks out in my mind is the often much more "positive" outlook on things by
>>AAs who have grown up in areas where Asians were not looked upon as "strange."
>
>Actually, some of the more strident remarks come from areas where there is a
>considerable Asian populace.

  So what's wrong with an Asian American being strident?   Yes I agree that
  the strident remarks do come from people who grew up in areas of considerable
  Asian descended population because we tend to have more pride in ourselves.
>
From: db6j+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas S. Brashear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, blah, blah, blah
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:15:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.IecsY5a00awCA8hVU7
Organization: Junior, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

In some random post a few days ago or something, Clare Chu
<clare@nynexst.com> writes:

-Good.  No problem with that, except the official name of this
  -newsgroup is soc.culture.asian.american

 - Since you do not consider yourself Asian American, we'll take
 - everything you say the same way we take what JJ and other visitors
 - say, i.e. knowing that they don't represent the AA viewpoint.
 - So we delete you as a datapoint.  Thanks for making it clear.

Well, even though I'm not an asian-american, I do take slight offense to
being grouped with JJ, as any respectable human would.   :-)
Delete me as a datapoint, eh...might as well put me in a 'kill' file or
something...
hmmm...can you make a file that weeds out posts by non-asian-americans
by looking up surnames or something...or maybe you can program my screen
to send you a picture of me so you can check for physical
characteristics.  :-)
Although I cannot represent an AA viewpoint, I do enjoy absorbing info
about other american sub-cultures...especially since the ol' net
privelages are free for me (uh...maybe not if you consider the
outrageous cost of tuition these days! 8-(

dontcha kinda think that its good to get both sides...afterall, I dont
really think that there's a 
netnews.soc.culture.asian.american.talks.to.other.people                  :-)

just thought I'd say that with a healthy dose of smileys!
DOUG
db6j+@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.korean,soc.culture.asean
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 20:29:57 GMT

In article <23565@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy from the mills) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.204612.29669@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>> Ha, ha, try and pin that one on me.  Go to Wilmington/Carson
>Hey?  I asked, yes?  I didn't TELL you, did I?
>
>No matter what, let me put it this way, you sound just like some
>of the nice white boys I dealt with in high school.

  Wow, what a compliment.  I've never had anyone tell me I sound
  like a nice white boy.  This really makes my day, JJ.  
>
>I guess we don't need to discuss this any more, you don't belive a word
>of what I'm saying, and I'm tired of being called a damn liar.

  I don't recall calling you a damn liar.  I do believe that you
  have suffered and suffered grieviously in your childhood and
  it has affected your attitudes and outlook in life.  I'm sorry
  if I sound like a nice white boy, because after all, I did have
  it pretty good compared to you.  I got to grow up in a mostly
  mixed working-class neighborhood and didn't have to deal with
  any doctor's or lawyer's kids.  In retrospect, it really was
  lucky for me that I lived in a neighborhood with gang members
  and drug dealers because they don't bother people unless you've
  screwed them on a deal.  The people in your neighborhood seemed
  to have bothered you even when you did nothing to them!
  What a bunch of petty, mealy-mouthed creeps.  People in our
  neighborhood were too busy making deals and shooting than
  beating up on poor millkids who decided to take the SAT.
  So in contrast, it was safer for us academic types, since
  they just ignored us.
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 25 Aug 1992 09:42:09 CDT
From: <U58402@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Michael Woo, L.A. mayoral candidate

Last weekend I went to a fundraiser for Michael Woo, who is the first
Chinese-American to run for mayor in Los Angeles. He's making a swing
through cities throughout the US, raising money from the Chinese-American
community. Chicago was his first stop.

Not being well versed in L.A. politics, I was wondering if anyone who
is from that area could help me out.

1. Is Bradley going to run again?
2. What is the ethnic breakdown of L.A. now? I was told that the
African-American community was not as large as the Asian-American
community in L.A. This surprised me.
3. Is L.A. predominantly Democratic or Republican?
4. Who else could make a run for mayor besides Bradley?

Michael Woo came across as being quite personable and energetic. The
organizers of this fundraiser made a small tactical error, though: they
held this fundraiser for Woo, who is a Democrat, in Westmont, a town in
DuPage County, which is VERY Republican. (The head of the Democratic
Party of DuPage showed up. I figured he was the head because he WAS the
Democratic Party of DuPage.) Woo did raise more money than he
expected to, though.

Wilbur Pan
(aka u58402@uicvm.uic.edu
 at the ever so friendly and personal univ. of ill. at chicago)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: maridai@ecs.comm.mot.com (Marida Ignacio)
Subject: RE: Perceptions...
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:30:51 GMT

in Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
<stuff deleted>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Perceptions 1

   Chinese language is the most widely used language in the 
   whole world.

Reality 1

   China has the largest population in the the whole world 
   (of course, the former follows by plain logic).
                     
-----------------------------------------------------------
Perceptions 2

   Racism against 'whites', blacks, American Indians exists
   but racism against Asians/AAs is what should prevail and 
   is prominent in this newsgroup.

Reality 2

   This is, afterall, soc.culture.asian.american.

-----------------------------------------------------------


Pardon my intuitive generalization above.  
I guess I am just tired...
From: jj@alice.att.com (jj, curmudgeon and clueless old white boy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:53:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23615
Reply-To: jj@alice.UUCP (jj, curmudgeon and clueless old white boy)
Distribution: na
Organization: NJ State Home for Bewildered Terminals

In article <1992Sep2.002852.28920@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>What I want is to have MY people be respected for being who we are not
>what you want me to be so that you'll be more comfortable.

Mr. Jackson, I have neither said nor implied anything about my being
comfortable.  You have lied, and I now call on you to retract
your lie, forthwith and without fail or delay.

It is not comfortable to stand up against a bunch
of drunk steelworkers (yes, they fight each other, too) because
they want to beat up somebody who's different?

You have lied, Mr. Jackson.  I have not asked that you make
me comfortable, I have only asked that you stop spreading
racist lies and encouraging hatred of my race.  That is not
asking for comfort, it is asking for less than the minimum that
any human owes any other.
-- 
Extremism *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
   in the    *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
  defense of     *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
 liberty is no vice.  *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....)
Subject: Re: Asian/Asian American Conflicts
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:04:38 GMT

In article <(~{5K6,F=~})DENG.92Sep3161531@math12.dd-ap.rhic.bnl.gov> deng@dd-ap.rhic.bnl.gov (~{5K6,F=~}) writes:
>>>>>> In article <1992Sep3.162735.28190@u.washington.edu>
>>>>>> "Roger" == Just another theatre geek..... <gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu> writes:
>  Roger> 	Notice, this does NOT mean that there have to be "Asian
>  Roger> cultural influences." It merely means there are common effects
>  Roger> from being perceived as Asian in America.
>Won't calling yourself Asian-American reinforce such perception?  Why not
>just Americans? 

	"No, where are you FROM? REALLY!?"

-- 
Roger Tang gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu
Executive Producer Emeritus, Asian Theatre at the UW;
	The definition of having balls is a non-singer who goes karaoke singing 
with the cast of a musical revue.
From: kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Accountability, or rather, JJ's lack of it.
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:53:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: rice.BtrGKG.Ix9
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University

In article <9208171530.AA01570@otter.hpl.hp.com> russil%idacom.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com writes:
>jlw@gestalt.austin.tx.us writes:
>>russil@idacom.hp.com writes:
>>>I think you're missing Andy's point, though.  Anybody reading Andy's articles
>>>knows who wrote them.  If they wanted to, they could look up his phone number
>>>and home address.  Or they might remember his USENET articles while reading
>>>one of his papers, or while interviewing him for a job.  The same isn't true
>>>of jj@alice, because jj isn't his *real* name.
>>
>>You ever think that someone might NOT WANT any random user to be able
>>to have that sort of information about him?  I mean it's all well and
>>good for Andy to do it, but should the rest of us follow suit as if
>>we were lemmings or something?

Only if you have something to hide.

>No, of course not.  jj mentioned that he's been harassed in the past.
>He's got a family, too.  It makes perfect sense not to sign his real
>name, particularly on such a controversial newsgroup as this one.

If jj were *really* interested in not having something done to him, he'd
quit antagonizing large numbers of people, not hiding behind an alias.
Aliases simply give people the excuse to antagonize people without having
to be responsible for your actions.

>And I don't think Andy was justified in demanding that jj sign his name.
>Being in a flame war on Usenet is hardly the same as burning a cross on
>somebody's lawn.

>>I'm all for Andy being completely free to plaster his dossier all over
>>Usenet if he wants to, but I think there should be an element of choice
>>involved.

Of course.  And I can choose to have little respect for people who hide
behind aliases so they can be obnoxious.
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Whites don't understand)
Date: 3 Sep 92 03:29:51 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep1.194800.27150@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:

>  You're putting words in my mouth.  I never called Joe W
>  a race traitor.  I just clarified that he would never
>  consider himself Asian American.  So I accept that he
>  considers himself Chinese. 

I was asked:

  When are you going to stop being Chinese and start being Asian-American?

And my answer is:

  If being Asian-American means not being Chinese, then the answer is 
  never.

Notice the implicit condition I was given.  Apparently, Ms. Chu
refuses to consider me to be Asian-American if I consider myself to be
Chinese.  Let me point out something peculiar about that condition.

A naive observer would conclude that the term Asian-American includes
all United States citizens with Asian ancestry.  But apparently that's
not true.  It seems by the implicit condition that you can't be
Asian-American if you are too "Asian."  

My suspicion is that as time passes, there will be more and more
conditions placed on being a "real" Asian-American.  You'll only be a
"real" Asian-American if you look this way, talk this way, act this
way, and think this way.  And if you don't do exactly which is
expected, you're either too "Asian" or too "white" to be an "real"
Asian-American.

I refuse to be controlled this way.  If Ms. Chu would like to redefine
her view of "Asian-American" to include people, like me who are at
their core Chinese, I won't object to be called Asian-American.  But I
have to change myself and my view of the world in the slightest way,
to be seen as Asian-American, then I refuse to become a member of this
group.

As Chinese, I am the inheritor of over 5000 years of culture,
tradition, history, and civilization.  Within my soul, there is a
lifeline that links me to the begin of history.  Can any person
rationally believe that I would reject my inheritance, for, for
what??????  What could I possibly gain from changing myself from
"Asian" to "Asian-American" that would in any way begin to compensate
for what I would have to lose?

No.  I will not join these "Asian-Americans."  I will simply remain an
outsider, trying to figure out what they mean when they talk about
diversity and acceptance....




Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,misc.talk.politics
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Subject: Re: AAs at Republican Convention
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:06:53 GMT

In article <BtHzvB.K4q@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> lchsu@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Leon Hsu) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.140526.12450@bnlux1.bnl.gov> kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) writes:
>>Of course, since they bus "ringers" in to
>>fill the seats for TV purposes, it's not clear if
>>most of those AAs were actually voting delagates
>>or TV tokens brought in to give the place color.  
>>(More likely the latter, I would guess.)  
>
>Is this for real? I would really be interested to 
>see some kind of evidence of this. You'd think
>that a scam like that could start quite a fiasco.
>Where's the Washington Post?
>-leon.

Apparently it's no big deal; they did it for the
"family values" segment (aka Barbara Bush's speech)
when they bussed in hordes of mothers and toddlers
to sit on the front rows and shed tears for the cameras.
From: kevin@daffy.ee.lbl.gov (Kevin Gong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Cantonese Conversation Class
Date: 26 Aug 1992 06:22:14 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: kevin@daffy.ee.lbl.gov (Kevin Gong)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.112.42

There will be a		Cantonese Conversation Class
at the			Oakland Adult School
on			Monday and Wednesday evenings 7-9pm
			Sept. 14th - Nov. 11th
			(total of 36 hours)
The cost is		$40

Pre-registration is required.  For more information (or to register),
call 510-452-1405 Monday-Friday 8am-4pm.
From: melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM (Calling Dr. Nordstrom ...)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, blah, blah, blah
Date: 2 Sep 1992 16:46:04 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: thedarktower.corp.sun.com


		clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
		> If I were a new parent, I'd want
		> to read viewpoints from other new parents and take it more
		> seriously than viewpoints from someone who is talking 
		> "theoretically."
		> My sister (no kids) tried to lecture me on some "theory" of
		> getting your toddler to obey you and both me and my mom 
		> laughed her out of the room.  Ha!  She takes a 
		> pediatrics class and thinks she can get toddlers to 
		> obey.  Ha ha ha.
 
	underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) :
	> This, of course, ignores the obvious.
	> Namely, I have the utmost respect for many Japanese and 
	> Western parents, who are parents for the 1st time.  They 
	> _do_ consult scientific and how-to books on child-rearing 
	> in the hope of rearing children in the
	> healthiest way possible.  They _are_ concerned about the modern
	> ways of expressing love and concern for children's well being.
	> ...
	> This, of course, is in stark contrast to many Chinese-cu parents.
	> They consult their own bigotry, ignorance, and cruelty to raise
	> some of their children.  They think that books written by 
	> well-intentioned folks like Dr. Spock are a bunch of liars and 
	> all-together know-nothing Westerners.

Oh for Christ sake, can't your even stick to Clare's topic????!!!!
You look for every single opportunity to attack Chinese culture EVEN
WHEN IT'S NOT THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OF CONVERSATION!!!!

You really are obsessed.

Did you ever think about taking up other hobbies?

	Melinda
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: shin@krusty.ee.udel.edu (Jeong-Gyun Shin)
Subject: Re: Asian/Asian American Conflicts
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:25:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.052647.14367@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>Not quite.  Most of your _Chinese-cu_ friends think that way.
>It's regretable thinking, but they _are_ Chinese-cu, after all.
>
No one asked any question to a liar, D.Joe.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: russil@idacom.hp.com (Russil Wvong)
Subject: Re: The Chinese Community
Reply-To: russil@idacom.hp.com (Russil Wvong)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, IDACOM Telecommunications Division
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 09:57:07 GMT

Gary L Dare writes:
>If you're second-generation, then you're born to immigrant parents
>(first generation born on Canadian soil)?  I'd think that you'd be
>pretty *integrated*

I think so too.  But I still think of myself as being Chinese-Canadian,
not "just Canadian".  I'm therefore (I think) included in Dwight's
"Chinese-cu" category, and relegated to "baboon" status, despite the
fact that my exposure to Chinese culture is limited to studying Mandarin
and watching HK gangster movies.

>Here's your "Chinese-cu" test:
>
>"Do you like the Edmonton Oilers?"

More of a Canuck fan, actually, being from Vancouver.  :-)

Russil