HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kutem@grouper6.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: kutem@motcid.rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:59:07 GMT

In article <mccalley.715623076@lead16>, mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley) writes:
|> These are good points.  And salmon do somehow swim all the way up stream,
|> so I guess there are some amazing feats of reproduction in this ecosystem.
|> For salmon, you would think they would choose an easier way, but they do
|> not have the ability to think in the same capacity as we do.  I wonder 
|> what our excuse is.

And bigotry and discrimination still exist, even with all this great thinking
capacity we supposedly have. I *do* wonder what our excuse is. The inability
to acknowledge the love two people share, whether it is between a man and a
woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, is one of the most saddening
things I see in this world today.

|> While it is true that AIDS can strike anyone, gay males have the highest
|> incidence of the disease, and that is very simply because of the way it
|> is transmitted.  The risk to a heterosexual male is not very great,
|> especially if he is monogomous.  Since you seem to know a great deal about
|> this subject, I am sure you would agree.  When you talk about probability,
|> gay men get the short end of the stick.  Ooops :)

I don't care who you are, or what your sexual orientation is. You should
be very frightened, as long as AIDS exists. Sex is not the only means of
transmission.

As for risk, why would the risk be any greater for a homosexual monogomous
couple, or do you still believe AIDS is primarily a "gay" disease, 
primarily caused by their "behavior"?
-- 
Jon Kutemeier_________________________________________________________________
----------------Software Engineer               /XX\/XX\  phone:(708) 632-3033
Motorola Inc.   Radio Telephone Systems Group  ///\XX/\\\ fax:  (708) 632-4430
1501 W. Shure Drive, Arlington Heights, IL 60004    uucp: !uunet!motcid!kutemj
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: WHERE IS THE FUN
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 16:22:21 GMT

>How I long
>for the days when a camping trip was a simple thing:  we went out with
>our tents and had a good time in the woods.  It is so much harder to
>stimulate the interest of the boys in our troop.  They are more
>concerned with going rapelling (sp?) and doing other high adventure
>trips......
>
>How can you force people to have a good time without spending their life
>savings on the trips?  I don't remember paying more than about $8 on any
>of our trips!  Some of the prices he is quoting are over $100!!

I made this point when rec.scouting first started, and I'll state it
again for the benefit of the newcomers.  I feel BSA, in offering such
high adventure activities as Philmont and Florida Seabase, is promoting
this mentality instead of trying to control it.   My biggest objection to
both these places is that ther target audience, the 14.000-17.997 age
group, are boys who should be working during school vacation instead
of trying to live the high adventure life.  As part of teaching boys
positive values and responsibility, BSA should be encouraging boys in
this age group to WORK, and NOT provide them with super-vacation
alternatives.

The biggest problem though, and this seems to be pervasive in our
society, is that it's considered anti-social, in bad taste, or
self-demeaning for someone to openly object to something "for the
children" on the basis of cost.  As a result, when high cost
"high-adventure" activities are discussed, the following  happens-

    1.	Those parents opposed to it on cost may, if they're bold,
	make a few tentative negative statements, but that's it.

    2.	If, by some miracle, the actual cost does enter into the
	discussion, it is summarily dismissed with a "well, the 
	boys have to understand that these activities are optional,
	so they should feel no obligation to participate in any
	or all of them."

    3.	Eventually, the boys whose families can't afford these activities
	just quietly drop out of the Troop, mumbling something about
	"no longer interested in Scouting" or due to  "other activities".

The other problem is that this mentality of giving the children
everything is pervasive everywhere.  About 6 years ago, when our
high school band was considering a trip to England and Scotland
(their theme and motif are the Scottish Highlanders), I was the
only parent to object for reasons of cost (i.e., even if we have
the money, are our children really "entitled" to this) and
priorities (i.e., they should be working during the summer).
Needless to say, I heard the same arguments then as I later heard
at Troop Committee meetings (it's a once-on-a-lifetime opportunity;
they'll have plenty of time to work; not all teenagers can get
summer jobs; it's really a great value for the money; nobody is
required to go). 

Now, is there anything we can do, or should do, about this?
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
From: rchafetz@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Ross Chafetz)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: WHERE IS THE FUN
Date: 7 Sep 1992 21:37:23 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx


In article <1992Sep7.162221.2648@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>   My biggest objection to
>both these places is that ther target audience, the 14.000-17.997 age
>group, are boys who should be working during school vacation instead
                     ~~~~~~
I do not think all boys should be doing one thing durring the summer,
every boy and family is different.

I agree with the values taught by working, but do not agree it has to
be at the expense of other experiences : ei Philmont.  As I'm sure
you've guessed, I gone to Philmont and it was more than a
super-vacation - it was a super-experience.  If you have not gone
before it is a learning experience that is both physical and mental.  I
will always remember the friends I went with and how we learned to
work together.  Positive values and responsibility is not only found
in wages, they can also be found at places like Philmont.

The true question here is not - why do we allow boys to goto Philmont?
but rather - What can we do to allow all boys to go to Philmont?

Being a boy scout is expensive.   Should we stop all of scouting so that
kids can work, rather than going camping, or to meetings or spend
money on equipment, and uniforms etc.  The question is what can the
troops do to even out the costs.  

There will always be certain people that can do more than others - I
agree it is unfair.

:)
Ross
From: cronin@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Fester the Penguin)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What is an Eagle Scout?
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:23:34 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep14.021055.2010@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>I have worked with several Eagle Scouts and candidates, and I feel BSA
>should put a minimum age/grade on it.  The older boys seem to get a lot
>more out of it and appreciate the finer points a lot more (like when
>things don't go according to plan, or identifying contingencies and
>planning for them).  Younger boys are just going through the motions.

Definitely. The younger the Eagle Scout, the more clueless they are
about the Scouting program, and about the Scouting skills they're
supposed to have learned. Also, they don't know very much about leadership
at age 13. This is from my own observations....

Tom Cronin
Eagle at 17... :-)
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 ______    Thomas Cronin         "Extinction is not something to contemplate;
(______)   CEE/Theatre Eng.       rather, it is something to rebel against."
   ||      Purdue University      from _The_Fate_of_the_Earth_ by J. Schell
   ||               "Trinitrotoluene is an educational toy." - me
-=NUKE=-      cronin@ecn.purdue.edu or fester@minuet.cc.purdue.edu
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2846 alt.discrimination:4137 chi.general:981 alt.atheism:16619 alt.politics.homosexuality:5708
From: magenta@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Leilah Thiel)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 6 Sep 92 05:30:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


 

  Overboard?  How is this going overboard?  Gays were killed in germany the 
same way the jewish and the gypsies were.  I don't think we have any room
to be complacent about this sort of thing in a country that put its
Japanese citizens in concentration camps during WWII.  We have political
"leaders"  that are smiling upon the crimes against gay people.  There are 
people dying because of this hatred, and you think that this is going 
overboard?  Sorry to ask for so much.

    leilah
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<AWERLING.92Sep7173315@dante.nmsu.edu>
	<1992Sep8.000513.26065@cs.yale.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:05:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.000513.26065@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:

-   In article <AWERLING.92Sep7173315@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:

- >Well, when bigotry hurts children, I'd call it immoral.
- This from the man who proclaimed so loudly that there are no
- absolutes??

There are no absolutes.  Reread my statement: "*I'd* call it immoral."

- In any case, you have simply repeated what Ms. Beatty asserted,
- not provided any substantiation for the claim. Your repetition
- of the claim does nothing to support it. Perhaps you would care
- actually substantiate it?

You have a teenage homosexual who's told he is unfit to be a Boy
Scout, who's told he is sick, who's told he's going to hell...

He's kind of screwed across the board, isn't he?

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: ag279@yfn.ysu.edu (Robert C. Knollman)
Subject: Re: American Flag Disposal
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 04:38:16 GMT


I seem to remember here in Ft Hamilton District/Dan Beard Council, that a few years ago a "Retirement of the colors" was scheduled as part of a Camporee.  Research into the the proper "etiquite" revealed that this is not considered an
appropriate public ceremony--rather it is to be conducted privately.

I cannot remember the source of this information...although I do remembescrambling for a different ceremony to close the campfire.

Maybe others can shed some light on this.
Bob Knollman
SA  T940
####
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From:  (m19701)
Subject: Looking for Troops - Va, Md, Penn, WVa
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: mitre.org
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:20:19 GMT

Greetings and Salutations.

My Troop, 1158, is starting its second full year.  We have about 15 boys
which equates to about 90% of the Webelos that have moved up the last two
Springs.  Obviously we have a shortage of more senior scouts.  What we
(thats not only the comm., but the boys as well) would like to do on
occasion is to camp, hike, whatever, with other troops.  Not every month
and certainly not the same troop each time.  Camporees and Hikorees are
fine but not the level we need.  We need senior scouts to help our
youngsters along.  We want to share ideas outside our area. And we want the
kids to meet others.

We are also looking for ideas on places to camp and new trails to hike.

Additionally, we need ideas for summer camp next year.  Goshen is fine but
we'd like to try other places as well.  Kids tend to get bored quickly if
everything becomes a routine.

So. . . if anyone is interested or has ideas I'd like to hear from you.

Thanks . . . 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: macman@bernina.ethz.ch (Danny Schwendener)
Subject: Re: Spliting the group
Organization: Peppermint Software Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:39:30 GMT

jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans) writes:
>But what about this approach: how about making rec.scouting
>or rec.scouting policy, as the case may be, moderated,
>but only to the extent of not allowing cross-posting to it?  The
>idea is that if you are interested enough to post on rec.scouting,
>then you should be interested enough to subscribe.

Sounds good. Newsgroups moderated by human beings sooner or later end up
running into problems (see rec.humor.funny or comp.sources.mac). 
Newsgroups moderated by a deamon only run into problems if something goes
wrong with the host the deamon runs on.

Any volunteer to host such a deamon on his/her machine? I won't step
forward because it would not be reasonable to have a machine in Europe
as moderator host if 95% of the messages come from the US.

-- Danny Schwendener         macman@bernina.ethz.ch
   Wolfsmeute Nidau/Glockenhof, Sihlstr. 33, CH-8001 Zurich, Switzerland
   m.h.c. Troop 14, San Francisco
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Scout Camps/NE Region
Keywords: Camping
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:25:37 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ

In article <1992Sep9.172019.17071@linus.mitre.org>,  (m19701) writes:
 > Greetings and Salutations.
 > 
 > My Troop, 1158, is starting its second full year.  We have about 15 boys
 > which equates to about 90% of the Webelos that have moved up the last two
 > Springs.  Obviously we have a shortage of more senior scouts.  What we
 > (thats not only the comm., but the boys as well) would like to do on
 > occasion is to camp, hike, whatever, with other troops.  Not every month
 > and certainly not the same troop each time.  Camporees and Hikorees are
 > fine but not the level we need.  We need senior scouts to help our
 > youngsters along.  We want to share ideas outside our area. And we want the
 > kids to meet others.
 > 
 > We are also looking for ideas on places to camp and new trails to hike.
 > 
 > Additionally, we need ideas for summer camp next year.  Goshen is fine but
 > we'd like to try other places as well.  Kids tend to get bored quickly if
 > everything becomes a routine.
 > 
 > So. . . if anyone is interested or has ideas I'd like to hear from you.
 > 
 > Thanks . . . 

There is a Northeast Region Camping Directory that should be available
from your council office. There are MANY camps in eastern PA and
southern NJ that should be within driving distance. Ours is
James A. Citta Camp, which is probably listed as Brookville, and we have
out of council troops all of the time. (They changed the name last year
and we are now Jersey Shore Council. It used to be Ocean County Council
before we merged with Atlantic Area) The Camping Directory is a good
source for camps and councils and phone numbers. 
By the way, even with a young troop, you might consider visiting the
National Jamboree next summer. It is at Fort AP Hill which is close to you.

Good luck.
-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: prs@oasis.icl.co.uk (Peter Swynford)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Jamboree-On-The-Air (17-18/10/92)
Keywords: JOTA RADIO
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:27:17 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: ICL, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 4SN, UK



This is a reminder to all UK participants in this year's Jamboree-On-The-Air
that you must register yourselves with Scout Headquarter BEFORE the event.
This will enable you to gain the pre-JOTA newsletter, gain valuable resource
material and information on other stations and become part of the annual
statistics.

More information from the National Adviser (Amateur Radio):
	Paul Bateman G1ZOV,
	tel: 081-998 1921

or contact the Programme & Training  Department at Gilwell Park:
	tel: 081-524 5248

73 es Good Scouting

de Peter G0PUB (JOTA GB2PL)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--... ...--      -.. .      --. ----- .--. ..- -...      -.-
Peter Swynford is available... tel: +44 344 424842 x 2625 / fax: +44 344 489280
or at prs@oasis.icl.co.uk /..!uunet!mcsun!ukc!iclbra!prs / G0PUB@GB7RDG.GBR.EU
Disclaimer: See Paragraph 2.4.a of section 1.a (article 7) (iii) of the
            Town and Country Planning Act, 1967.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2896 alt.discrimination:4178 chi.general:1019 alt.atheism:16709 alt.politics.homosexuality:5759
From: mongo@techbook.com (Max Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 7 Sep 92 23:13:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: techbook.1992Sep7.231344.13889
Distribution: usa
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix

rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:

>In article <1992Sep6.022528.22499@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
>>So I take this 'translational invariance' as an axiom.
>Yes, but I don't.

>>Bigotry doesn't treat others as people, with all their complexity, but
>>as cartoon bad guys. The inference about the immorality of bigotry follows
>>straight away.
>No, you have a hidden assumption, which is that people wish to be
>treated more or less as you do. If I wish that people not treat me
>equally well, but "help" me (I.e. try to make me straight) if I am

The difference in the "way people wish to be treated" is taken into account
in the viewpoint translation. For example, a hetero may imagine himself being
gay, and imagine that that would entail wishing to be "cured", and therefore try
to "cure" them. I would claim that he has imperfectly performed the
viewpoint translation, since many gays don't see themselves as sick.
I don't buy your objection.

>Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu

Regards,
	Max G. Webb
-- 
mongo@techbook.COM          ATT: 1-503-227-1284
SNAIL: 1983 nw Flanders #205, Portland OR 97209
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Current Batch of Uniforms
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:16:40 GMT
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando

In article 8632@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com, jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum) writes:
>  Mark, are you really able to get your scouts to keep their socks pulled
>up?  Here in Texas, the current fad is to push the sock down to the ankles.
>Our boys wouldn't be caught dead with them pulled all the way to the knees.

Well, they usually start out all the way up. One quick trip through 
some of the mostly unfriendly scrub around here convinces most that
bare legs are not the way to go.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson 
Eagle Class of 1974
SM, Troop 565, Deltona, FL
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 6 Sep 92 17:17:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <5110@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew
Infante) writes:
>
> Who's to say that if an individual is supposedly _Abusing_ drugs in
> the privacy of his/her own home that society is going to _know_ about
> it.
>
> How would anyone know he was abusing drugs unless it was not in
> private.
>
> The issue is not the same.

Substitute "having sex with men" for "abusing drugs" in the above, and
you'll see that it is exactly the same argument.

I assume that this is not what you intended.

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stolz@fnusgd.fnal.gov
Subject: Help with Fire Safety quiz wanted
Organization: P.S.C.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:16:11 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnusgd.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

HI ALL - One of the suggested Cub Pack themes for this year is on Fire Safety.
Unfortunately, the recommended BSA activity for the Pack meeting has nothing
to do with the suggested theme.  I am therefore, creating my own Pack activity,
My plan is to create a Fire Safety Quiz (see below).  I will first have each
Cub AND parent do the quiz alone, then they will do it as a family, and 
finally, they'll review it as a Den (Sixer).  This is a 'fill-in-the-blank'
quiz, and I'll have an answer sheet with separate columns for 'alone', 'with-a-
partner', and 'as-a-Den'.  I've done a more sophisticated version of this with
a Desert Survival quiz in our Boy Scout troop.  What I need is a good selection
of questions (and answers).  The collection below all came from the BSA Cub 
Scout Helps booklet for 1992-3.  While I consider myself a reasonable safe 
person, this is not one of my areas of expertise.  Can any of you suggest more
or better questions to add to my list. I'll post my final Quiz for  anyone that 
wants to down-load it.  Keep in mind that the Cubs range in age from 7 to 10.  

thanx - Mike S.
***********************************************************************
*  BITNET: STOLZ@FNAL           INTERNET: STOLZ@FNBOOT.FNAL.GOV
*  Phone:  708-840-8060         
*  MS:     120                  Wilson Hall 8 East
*  FermiLab,  P.O. Box 500,  Batavia, IL  60510
***********************************************************************

----------------
FIRE SAFETY QUIZ

o) Don't play with ____
o) Keep ____ and other dangerous things away from fires or heat.
o) Destroy all ____ or greasy ____.
o) Regularly check all ____, switches and fuses.
o) Know where the nearest ____ are in buildings you enter.
o) Replace cracked, frayed or unsafe ____.
o) Have fire ____ at home.
o) Place the fire dept. phone number on your ____
o) Cover fireplaces with ____.
o) Make certain ____ and flues are clean and clear.
o) Smoky needs your ____.
o) If your cloths are on file ____
o) A ____ will help smother a small fire.
o) Do not throw ____ on a grease fire.
o) A fire needs heat, air(oxygen) and ____ to burn.
o) In a smoke-filled room, the 'best' air is near the ____
o) The emergency phone number of the Fire Dept. is ____
o) If a fire starts at home, the first thing to do is ____
o) The second thing to do is ____.
o) If your house was on fire, the fastest way to get out is ____.
o) 
o) 
o) 

*** CHOSE FROM THE FOLLOWING ANSWERS ***

help              chimneys               screens                telephone
electrical cords  fire escapes           extinguishers          911
smoke alarms      oily                   rags
gasoline          matches                stop, drop & roll      blanket
water             fuel                   floor            
get out           call for help          the window
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality