From: garyd@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Gary Deol)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re:Khalistan
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 01:18:28 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

A reply to a message written by: porayath@IASTATE.EDU (Rajiv Porayath)
 
 
>> And what makes you think that this can't happen in Punjab? You have
>> absolutely no evidence that they were not innocent. At least approach
>> the issue with an open mind instead of your own pre-conceived notions.
>> I have met many Sikhs who have come here from Punjab (both temporarily
>> and permanently) and invariably they talk of a multitude of police
>> abuses against innocents. Now these are REAL people who have lived 
>> in Punjab over the past few years. Many abuses have been widely
>> documented - go and read them.
 
> I have a roomate who lives in chandhigarh, and he tells me how things 
>are in punjab. The police does not arbitarily go to a persons house to  
>kill him, but if they or their family members have connenctions with 
>terrorists or are know sympathisers of terrorists then such things may 
>happen. And obviously when your friend or uncle or brother get picked 
>up, you will defend him by saying that he is innocent. So the people 
>you have been meeting belong to that category, who would call one's son 
>or brother a terrorist it is the police who are wrong.  But in the 
>situation existing in punjab a few innocent people will be hurt due to 
>the sheer statistics of the problem. Yesterday in california SWAT 
>teams raided the house of an elderly couple and injured them and 
>ransacked their home.  This was due to wrong information. So such 
>things happen but they are exceptions  and not a rule.
 
  My cousin had just become a teacher in Punjab, one friend of his 
was picked up for helping militants, some how they figured he was
linked to since he hung around with him and they came to his house
picked him up tortured him and let him go (which proves he was 
innocent or he wouldn't of been released).  For safety his parents 
sent him out of his village since the police continued harrasing them, 
then when the police came and he wasn't there the parents took his 
father away and beat the crap out of him.  Also that night a couple 
of Hindu security force members (which is why my hatred tends to slip 
out occasionally, thoa I realize that you can't blame all Hindus for 
there actions (Hindus did for IG's death)) beat my aunt up at her 
house (as I said before, witnessed by a Cdn citizen) and kept on 
yelling to her that they killed her husband.   Eventually they dropped 
off his father and told them to show his son, they did that and they 
tortured him again, that night they dropped him off and a few days 
later he had enough and went underground.  Then the police came in a 
day or two later and said they found some weapons in the ground 
which they THEMSELVES put in the ground says my aunt and arrested her 
husband under TADA - the police are experts in faking documents.  
In short my cousin was killed, and my aunt just keeps talking to her 
self (severe mental illness), her older son also went underground to 
avenge his brothers death.  My cousins and his fathers name appeared 
in Chardi Kala (Sikh newspaper if you want proof)!  
 
  Now tell me what would my aunt or uncle have to do with the 
militants, yet they were tortured, for that I vowed i'm not going to 
rest until India pays dearly (in the form of Khalistan) for what they 
did; Thoa Khalistan isn't going to do jack shit for them, their whole
family is already ruined, but for other young Sikhs the TRUE 
`glow of freedom' can only be achieved in Khalistan.  Thoa the price 
is going to be very high, considering the fact how low the gov't of 
India is willing to go, but at the end it will be worth it.  Now I 
would consider myself to be just as guilty as the gov't of India if I 
just idly sat here and just read what was happening; Instead of 
getting involved and doing what little I can.  
 
  The way my cousin was forced to join the ranks of militants is not 
new, MANY other militants to had to suffer the same way, eg Raghbir 
Singh of Khalistan Commando Force, I have an article about how he was 
severily tortured and then forced to join the KCF, if somebody wants 
it I can type it out (quite long).  
 
 
>  We have a free press which has covered the events in punjab without 
>government censorship.( Read India Today , See Neewstrack ) So the 
>views I have are not by indoctrination but those formed by reading 
>news and meeting REAL people.
 
 
  Did any people read that article in India Today around 5 issues ago 
where that Sikh lady was beaten up (innocent) by police and eventually 
succumbed to her injuries.  The writer of the article has the nerve to 
conclude with some guys quotation that mentions that `police and 
terrorist come from the same blood' or something like that.  It goes 
to show where the media's loyality lies (they are quite biassed in 
their reporting)!!  That lady who died was a REAL person who my moms 
brother had talked to (same village)! How much more REAL do you want?
 
 
>>>You are 20 and quite mature( I hope) to believe that your cousin 
>>>was involved with the terrorists in some way or the other.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>> Now this is just diabolical. You have no knowledge of the facts of 
>>the case and yet you make this assertion!! Your biases are showing up 
>>very clearly indeed.
 
> I don't see what biases you are talking about. As I said before the
>possibility of innocent people being hurt is an exception and not a 
>rule.
 
  I know of a lot of REAL people who were innocent and had been killed
by the police, that is just my relatives and family friends what about
the other Sikhs.  I'm sure they to can give you horror stories.
 
 
>>>What the police did was their job to arrest and destroy them, and 
>>>you know                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>> Well now we're getting to the bottom of it. If you accept that it is
>> the job of the police to "destroy" people, then is there any point
>> discussing anything with you on this issue?
 
>    It is the job of the police to destroy people that are a threat 
>to society and to other people. If you accuse me of not having proof 
>of garys cousin being a terrorist, you cannot prove me otherwise. And 
>as he himself says a cousin of his, has killed policemen and is a 
>terrorist, so what's wrong if I conclude the same.
 
  I think your the biggest idiot I have ever seen, should I derive from
my assumption and conclude that all your relatives are idiots to?
 
  If you think your government's job is to "destroy people" and not 
punish those individuals who are guilty (from the gov'ts point of 
view) then I question how India can call itself a democracy.  Which 
explains why your own prime minister (Rajiv Gandhi) refused to accept 
a debate with the Sikhs in his visit to America (which shows he 
didn't want to talk it out `peacefully') since India's occupation 
of Khalistan is baseless; just like some of the Hindus on the net who 
eventually end up saying `we don't want to talk to you since you are 
a terrorist', since their arguments to can be easily refuted!
 
" If the so called World's largest democracy needs laws like T.A.D.A to
repress it's people, then it's no Democracy".
                        - Dan Burton US Congress.
 
>>>families of the concerned people get hurt. It is unfortunate but 
>>>happens, so the best thing is not to get involved.
>>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>> Why should these matters be overlooked - so that they can be
>> perpetuated time and time again?
 
>  The police are fighting a tough battle, risking their lives and 
>that of their families, so we have to stand by them and not keep 
>harping on each rule they break in the book. The aim is to destroy 
>the terrorists, and as in war and love there are no rules. Do the 
>terrorists obey the Geneva Convention?
 
  If the Indian government can't obey the Geneva Convention (ask 
Amesty International if you want proof) then why should the 
`terrorists'?  When a gov't can torture many innocent people and get 
away with it, then I question who is the `bigger' terrorist?
  
>  As I had mentiomed earlier the problem is to be solved by indians 
>under the Indian constitution and not by the likes of gary who have 
>no say in the matter. 
 
  Is this the same constitution that upon its conception was designed 
to discriminate against the Sikhs and other minorities!  The 
constitution has been changed many times to include rascist 
discrimintory laws such as TADA and NSA, and it considers Sikhs to be 
Hindus.  During the recent Cheif Minister elections the gov't made it 
known that those who were running had to SWEAR that they would not 
support the creation of Khalistan, so much for a democratic secular 
constitution...  That is why the Sikhs did not participate in the 
elections to show the world that the Sikhs reject India's 
`constitution'.  The Sikhs have tried working under India's 
`constitution' since 1947, what makes you so sure they can solve it 
under the constitution now?  Let's face it India's `constitution' 
isn't even worth the paper it is printed on! 
 
 
>As far as indoctrination of poor souls like gary go, they have been 
>documented in the media and neewspaper. This is especially true for 
>England and I have read a few articles about Cananda too. I don't have 
>to go to a Gurudawara to listen, I believe in the news media. 
>And as I said before those who are not Indian nationals have no say 
>in the problem and should stay out.
  
  Do you know if you just yell the word Khalistan in India you can be
arrested, so who is going to speak for them?  When the Jews found out 
about the attrocities being committed against them in Germany many of 
them in other countries that were not occupied by the Nazi's picked 
up arms and joined the allies.  So what you are saying is they should 
not have done that since it was `Germany's Internal Affair'?
 

Gary Deol              garyd@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian