HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: History vs. dreams
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:23:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Lothar writes,

>If you are in a really medieval setting and someone came up to you and
>insisted loudly on being recognized as an elf you have several options:
>
>a) assume that the person is a mummer or player of some sort.
> ...
>b) assume he is crazy. 
> ...
>c) assume he's possessed. 
> ...
>d) assume that he's a real faerie.
> ...
>e) assume that a crazed beggar with deformed ears. 
> ...
>f) assume he is a warlock of some sort.

In the actual incident I referred to, the person in the funny ears 
announced "I'm an elf," and proceeded, when faced with "I beg your 
pardon?" to say "Didn't you notice the ears?"  The gentle faced with 
this responded, "Yes, but I thought it unseemly to comment on an 
obstetrical accident."  One can play these games; just as one can 
pretend one does not know what a farspeaker is, or to what people 
are referring when they claim to travel in the bellies of dragons.  

But while you do it, you're thinking, "Can you please go play D&D 
somewhere else so that I can try to get back into a medieval mindset?" 
If you are very, very, _very_ good at this, you may fool those around 
you; you may even on rare occasion fool yourself; but you cannot do
it consistently.  

Authenticity nit-picking is not period; and the best way to deal with 
radical intrusions, in my opinion, is to ignore them as best one can 
and move on.  But this is a very poor best.

The people who want to be elves ask that they be given a space to do 
it in.  Fair enough.  How about also a space for those who don't want 
that?  What I am suggesting, really, is a move from passive courtesy 
("I won't say you can't play your game, if you won't say I can't
play mine") to active courtesy ("I will move over sometimes to make 
space for you to play your game in, if you will do the same for me").  
It seems to me that this is at least equally tolerant, and far more 
equitable, since those games that are relatively fragile are not 
guaranteed always to lose.

I'm not proposing a new set of laws, or enforcement; really, what 
I'd like to see is a more genuinely tolerant _mindset_, that does 
not assume, on any side, that any other is out to get it, or that 
it has rights over any other, except in its own time and place.

Unless we can get something like this, I think we will continue to 
lose many of the people who many of us would most like to keep.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: The most wonderful book in the world
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:34:09 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Mistress Thora has just loaned me the most wonderful book in the world.  It
is "Mediaeval European Jewellery", by Ronald W. Lightbown (1992: Victoria
and Albert Museum).  I don't know how much it costs, but if you have to ask
you can't afford it.  

The book is an unbelievably comprehensive survey of medieval jewelery.  It
has chapters of crowns & coronets, pendants, collars, necklaces, etc.  I've
barely looked at the text, but the pictures are enough to make you weak in
the knees: Dozens of full-color pictures of jewelery, portraits that show
jewelry, statuary, illuminations, etc.  Details.  It's just amazing.  So
far, I've been captured by the chapters on crowns & coronets and the
chapters on collars & chains.  I particularly loved a photo of a German
arhcery guildmaster's collar (I didn't even know there WERE archers'
guilds!!) which has little cut-out arms hanging from the links - presumably
the arms of the masters or something like that - that look just like last
year's Pennsic medallions!

Find this book.  Fall in love with it.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:36:26 GMT

In article <BuA0In.4My@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
)In article <199209080025.AA12996@meryl.csd.uu.se> vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
)>As to Brian
)>Blessed and Sean Connery (each appearing for about 1 minute), they
)>hardly outweigh Kevin Costner and several other badly cast characters.
)>(Bletch!)
 
)I challenge you to weigh any two actors against Brian Blessed!
)Aryk Nusbacher

	Alex Karas and Andre the Giant.

	Or even just Andre alone...

(Hey, if I'm going to post on this thread it *has* to be silly.)

Kwellend-Njal
-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
"After a one-day strike by librarians and other protests by similar radical       activists..."  David Tanguay
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: douglas@techbook.com (Douglas)
Subject: Re: Edward Zifran of Gendy (was Re: Pennsic Land Allotment)
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:41:58 GMT

amy@lloyd.Camex.COM (Amy Lindsay) writes:
>OLD (not necessarily physically) friends at Pennsic who said at one time
>there had been a "the bastard" some where between the "Edward" and the
>"Gendy" but he got pulled away (by Edward) before he could explain further.

> A.G.Lindsay     *     Cloud Rental: Reasonable Rates     *     amy@camex.com 

When he taught me fighting (about ten years ago) he was "Viscount Sir
Edward Zifran, the Bastard Son of Gendy" and proud of it.  But I guess 
that was long ago and far away.  Does he still wear those hideous green
sneakers?  I know he's given up the leather helm, it's now an A&S
exhibit in Three Mountains...

Thomas AelfHeah    (He dosn't know me by this name :) )
-- 
douglas@techbook.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gchp@meadow.stanford.EDU (Iulstan/GCHP Mail)
Subject: new on-line Armorial
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:31:12 GMT

Greetings, all!

Thanks to the tireless efforts of Master Iathus of Scara, Morsulus
Herald, a new major release of the on-line armorial of SCA heraldry is
now available.  The files are currently available by anonymous FTP from
the /pub directory of meadow.stanford.edu (36.22.0.202)  They should soon
be available from other well-known SCA archive sites.  Stay tuned.

If you have never used anonymous FTP before, please read your local
documentation ('man ftp' on Unix machines) or ask for help locally --
don't send me mail.  (One hint, however:  don't get flustered if the FTP
server asks for a password; any non-empty string will serve for a
password.)  If your site does not support FTP (for instance, if you are
on BITNET or FIDONET) you will need special help to access these files --
I cannot help you, so don't send me mail.  Don't ask me to mail them to
you on diskette or electronically.

The new files appear to cover LoARs through April '92.  They are thus
a full year more up-to-date than the previous files.

Relevant filenames are:
  /pub/armorial.db  ASCII database of registered heraldry (1984 Kbytes)
  /pub/armorial.ver version control information (191 bytes)
  /pub/armorial.Z   compressed version of armorial.db (696 Kbytes)
  /pub/xref2.txt    cross-referenced list of registered SCA names (1080 Kbytes)

There is also a short ASCII file (/pub/dbformat.txt) that explains the 
database format in detail.  For information on the other files in the
directory, look at /pub/readme.txt

Master Iathus has informed me that he does not intend to release the "keys"
(needed for generating an Ordinary) to the net at this time.  Therefore,
the /pub/oanda.Z has not been updated.  Later this year, my household
may organize a massive re-indexing project.  Until then, if you need
keys, hang tight.
  
There will be a flurry of minor updates later this month, as I make
unofficial corrections.  If recopying the files is a big deal for you,
I suggest waiting a few weeks so you will get my best versions.

If you notice problems in the files, such as typoes, duplicate entries,
etc. please send me mail.  I do not currently read the Rialto or
the heralds' mailing list.

My blessings on you all.

Iulstan Sigewealding
mka: Stephen Goldschmidt
gchp@meadow.Stanford.EDU
From: 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Archives needed
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:21:27 GMT
Organization: Youngstown State University

Greetings to all, from Vajk!
 
I used to access the Rialto archives from lcs.mit.edu.  Where'd the archives
go?
 
Any archive on an ftp would be useful!
 
Vajk
From: mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Financing Kingdoms - was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Summary: contributions
Keywords: money
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:13:52 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <92Sep09.183021.25229@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
> 
>You know, at crown curia this weekend past, I heard the Kingdome
>Seneschal make a financial report to us that basically said
>"we're in *really* tough shape"...And that we needed a source
>of readily available income. So I stood up and suggested a head
>tax on event attendance. 1$ per person, per event they attend.
>

As of two years ago much of the cost of running the Middle Kingdom was borne
by the officers, just as the cost of a reign is born the King and Queen.  

The East and Middle have some funding sources other than contributions, but
I would guess that a Great Officer will wind up spending out of pocket 
something like ten times the amount the kingdom budgets.

This is all part of a more general problem - the SCA, Inc., and the Kingdoms
are seriously underfunded.  It is a rule of thumb that a non-profit needs
to have 2 1/2 years operating funds in the bank, and I don't think that
the SCA Inc. has nearly this amount.

On the other hand, local groups in the Middle can have large treasuries.  I
know of a shire of 20 members with $3K, and baronies with over $10K.  They
worked hard for it (most renfairs and large events) but I personally would
like to see some of those funds transferred to kingdom level.
-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 20:13:38 -0500

thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad) writeth:

 TE> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Michael, but I'd suggest
 TE> that your use of the phrase "Glenda the Good Fairy" could be 
 TE> construed as very offensive, especially in light of the source of
 TE> this thread. As you no doubt know, Glinda was a witch; "fairy" is
 TE> a rude euphemism for a gay man.

Hoo-boy, here we go again.  I suppose every reference to a powder puff really
means a gay man.  And when a British person lights up a fag, he's burning a gay
man at the stake.  And . . . .  If you LOOK for offense, you will surely find it
EVERYWHERE.  You would be well advised to observe Fidonet Basic Rule 1B:  Thou
shalt not be excessively easily annoyed.
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dating songs
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:51:42 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, especially Corun, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Aryk
asked about the song "Sir Patrick Spens".  I wrote back some information,
ending with,

>>Short answer: the song appears to be old, but the earliest words we have
>>are 18th C, and late 18th at that.

Corun then suggests,

>Maybe someone knows when there was a king at Dumferline. The first line
>of the poem reads;
>
>The king sits in Dumferling toune,
>Drinking the blude-reid wine:

Ah, would that it were so easy.

I'm very fond of this particular song; it's one of my favorite period-style
to periodoid ballads, and I perform it.  Evidence that it is actually period
would delight my soul.  Sadly:

(1) The king could have been visiting, in which case there might _never_
have been a king in residence at Dumferline, and so what?  Or there might
have been one earlier, and so what?

(2) Places that have been royal seats tend to pride themselves on it.  If
Dumferline ever was, folk might well have remembered that centuries later.
If I find a poem about Henry II in London, the use of the right capital
city is no evidence for the poem's antiquity; only for the author's 
knowledgeability.

Internal evidence is great stuff when you can find it, and it can go
either way: to show a song old, or to show it new.  (Anyone who knows
anything about the history of wines knows that "MacIntyre", a current
Atlantian favorite, can't be earlier than mid 18th C; in fact it's
late 19th.  Contrariwise, I know a Provencal pilgrim's song that only 
makes sense if you know that pilgrims in the 14th-15th C craze for 
Jerusalem pilgrimages were not supposed to go horseback; a fact that 
was later lost.  Also a Breton folk song that assumes Angelus is rung at
sunrise, placing its lyric very likely before the Council of Trent.)  
But for internal evidence to support an early origin, you need to show 
both that the information in the song is true early _and_ that it was 
not available later and appealed back to for an _appearance_ of antiquity.

With most ballads, there is simply no way to know how old the song is,
let alone any particular version, except by arguments based on form and
musical convention that will put a lower but not an upper bound on the
age.  We know that the folk tradition changes.  We know that it is simply
not true that songs sung in the 19th C were also probably sung in the
16th.  But as to particular songs, it is much harder to get solid evidence.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ps & Qs; Thees & Thous
Date: 8 Sep 92 12:52:42 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Sep1.023018.13921@ccu.umanitoba.ca>,
sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:
|>Gwydden wrote :
|>Rialto about its proper usage (la plus que change...)  Somebody else's
|>turn; surely the OED says something about the use of "thou" for the
|>Deity.

The Concise Oxford notes it as singular, but not as informal.  I dunno if the
company has an OED around.  Will check.
                                
  Henry Troup - HWT@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
    "If your morals make you dreary, depend on it, they are wrong" - R.L.S.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:38:34 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Arval writes:

>I am afraid your memory is faulty.  We found at least two other uses of the
>pentacle in period armory: one in the arms of German family in late period
>(inverted, even!), one in the arms of a Dutch surgeon's guild in the 15th
>century.  I've mentioned these from time to time on the Rialto.

I stand corrected.  If this is true, I believe it should be allowed.

>Creating armory for legendary characters was a common game in medieval
>literature (Arthur & his knights, biblical figures, God, the Devil, Prester
>John, the angels, the early saints, etc).  These devices appeared in rolls
>of arms, mixed in with the armory of real people.  In effect, this invented
>armory became a much a part of heraldry as the real thing.  Since they
>sprang from the same culture which produced the real heraldry, and were
>treated as if they were real heraldry, why shouldn't we treat them the same
>way?  

Because fictional works do not always reflect the reality of the
culture they come from?  How many people today are named Batman,
Spiderman, [whatever]man, Agent 99, Spock, or Alf?  How many people, 
outside of Star Trek conventions, wear IDICs or Star Fleet insignia?  

I've also heard (but don't know if it's true) that the British
heralds now checks arms for conflicts with SCA heraldry.  If so,
would that make everything the SCA's registered an example of
"authentic" 20th Century heraldry? 

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Subject: Re: An Tir Crown Tourney
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:39:45 GMT

In article <15104@mindlink.bc.ca> Alex_Hart@mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart) writes:
>and ,if I remember correctly there was an An Tir coronet tourney where everyone
>was mysteriously awakened at the same time on morning and those from parts
>south found they HAD to leave AND QUICKLY ! Can anyone on net recount the time
>that 3 Mountains became 2.5 mountains ?
>Alastair the Eastern Traveller
>Lions Gate,An Tir

Actually, as I recall it, those from the south and east didn't find 
they had to leave quickly; rather they found they had to arrange 
crash space for a few days in and around Madrone:  the roads were 
closed.  I posted the following awhile back in the brief thread 
about the recent Alaska volcano:
 
'Tis not the first time such grandure has been seen in the West.  I
am minded of An Tir Coronet Tourney in May A.S. XV.  We were camped
in the Cascades, about 50 miles east of Madrone (Seattle). For some
inexplicable reason, we all awoke early sunday morning, despite the
previous evening's revels.  Throughout the morning and into the
afternoon, we kept noticing this huge, expanding bank of deep, black
clouds encroaching from the south -- which was passing strange, since
weather systems generally come from within a few points of west in
that part of the world.  Finally that afternoon, closing court was
interrupted and an anouncement was made (if I recall correctly, by
his Highness, Prince Edward Ziffran):  That was no cloud bank; that
was the top thousand feet or so of Mt. St. Helens.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:11:26 GMT

In article <16856769E.00030929@ysub.ysu.edu> 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu writes:
>Second only to the people I meet, it is the late-night "noises" at Pennsic that
>I lik.  The sound of the drums, zills and jinglies, is relaxing.  Of course,
>I've often fallen asleep to the sweet sound of bagpipes.
> 
>This year I stayed with Peacemakers.  There was a bardic circle in camp one
>night (which I am told was a stunning gathering).  While I could not hear all
>of the stories/songs, I fell asleep much easier to the sound of what was
>going on than if it had been quiet.  I am told that there were well over fifty
>people there, and it went on 'til after 3 am.

It had been stated in the Pennsic pamphlet everyone got at Troll that a quiet
time was imposed beginning at 1:00 a.m. Apparently the circle didn't disturb
anyone in nearby camps. This is good since it allowed the bards to enjoy
themselves but not at someone else's expense. There was one very bad incident
with drumming at 3:00 a.m. It seems that Saide's encouraged some drummer to
play in order to "drum up" some late night business. Since Saide's was very
close to the Cooper's house, it woke Betty from a sound sleep. She then went
charging down there like a small but effective hurricane and threatened to
close Saide down. This is the kind of wroth we don't want to incur. Mac wasn't
bothered, but then according to Betty, he can sleep through anything. ;-)

>I have heard of attempts (at other events) to keep the late-night camps
>separated from the quieter camps.  Anyone know if this would work at Pennsic?
>I've never heard whether the attempts were successful in any regard at all.

I think trying to separate the noisy from the quiet camps would be impossible
at best. There's already too much dissension on who gets how much land and
where to throw this particular wrench into the works.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:42:53 GMT

  Far as I know, this is the *ONLY* gender-based restriction - but I haven't
  studied the Corpora or all the kingdom/principality/etc. laws.  (Anybody out
  there got more examples?)

Hmm.  I have read Corpora, extensively, and not only could I not think of
another example where Gender is an explicit criteria, I couldn't even
think of a place where Gender Specific language is used, except in the
case of King/Queen Prince/Princess and Baron/Baroness.  Note that there
is no requirement for a pair of Baron/Baroness.  It's just an example of
gender language.

There is no requirement that I am aware of, in the College of Arms.  There
is no gender requirements in Rattan Combat or Rapier Combat, other than
differing armor standards.

That's all I could think of, that I am familiar with.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:34:38 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <r5rn+nd.peterh@netcom.com> peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison) writes:

>If the SCA has concerns about their public image as pertains to a religious
>expression, it should restrict all such expressions.  Or put another way,
>if an individual with a strong Christian faith feels he is afforded a 
>"special blessing" when he bears weaponry with his religious icon on it, is
>it fair and chivalrous to prevent another individual with a strong Wiccan 
>belief his own "special blessing," just because his faith is less under- 
>stood by the populace at large?  

In the West, entrants in major tourneys are forbidden to wear or keep
with them "any stone, charm, or herb of virtue" that will give them
special powers or special help beyond the inspiration of  the one they
fight for. This includes Christian, Wiccan, and any other stone, charm,
or herb of virtue. 

>It's time the SCA started respecting the religious beliefs of all it's
>members, not just the ones that are "politically correct."  Yes, it takes
>an act of courage to do what's right, but isn't that what chivalry - and the
>SCA - is all about??

Actually, no. The SCA is about recreating the Middle Ages, and in the
Middle Ages, Wiccans would have been brutally murdered by the authorities
for their religious beliefs. Chivalry involved protecting the helpless
(women and children) and following (the Christian) God. The SCA is an
amazingly tolerant place compared to the mundane world, but it is not
an instrument for changing the mundane world. 

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca