From: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com (Christopher M. Conway)
Subject: Re: T. MENSA vs Intelligence
Reply-To: wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com
Organization: Prickly Wombat Enterprises
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:43:09 GMT


In article <1992Jul15.003110.17117@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott Tai) writes:
- In article <1992Jul14.175303.27175@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com>, wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com (Christopher M. Conway) writes:
- |>There has also been considerable evidence that much of what we know
- |>of as "intelligence" is also attributable to environment. While this
- |>still does result in people who *ought* to be in not being in due
- |>to lack of proper environment, and we ought to do something about
- |>this individually, my current response is "tough shit."
- |>
- |>"Scott", I really don't care that you don't like MENSA. I'm sorry you
- |>were turned down; many people just can't get in no matter how hard
- |>they try. I guess you're just one of those, and I'm sorry that you're
- |>so bitter about it. I would completely ignore you, except that doing
- |>so would tend to indicate to other people, who are not familiar with
- |>MENSA, believing that there might actually be some real substance to
- |>your claims.
- 
- Nice try.
- 
- MENSA's entrance qualifications depend directly on your scores from IQ 
- tests.  *Someone* in MENSA must have the idea that intelligence and 
- scores on standardized tests are somehow highly correlated.  If you
- only had that piece of information about a person, how could you say
- with any assurance that he or she could *act* like an "intelligent 
- person"?  (You can't.)

Wrong. The *expected case* (you do understand the term, don't you?) is
that such a person will behave in a manner which I consider to be consistent
with intelligence. High test scores *are* highly correlated with high
intelligence. *THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE THE SAME*. I have never,
and will never, claim that some intelligent people will not be able to join
Mensa because they can't get the required test scores. There will be some
people who will get those scores that aren't intelligent.

However, MOST of the people I have met in Mensa have been, at the very least,
bright. I've only met two or three (of several hundred, at this point) at
whom I scratched my head and wondered how they got in.
- 
- Part of intelligence is the ability to interact with other human beings
- in a composed and relaxed manner.  I've often found this ability lacking
- in MENSA members.  The only real way to find intelligent people is to
- search for them, because intelligence has different meanings to different
- people.

True. And some people include joining Mensa and going to events as part of
their search. Why would you deny us this route?

Would you object to my placing a personal ad in the paper, saying "Man with
175 IQ wishes to meet other people, of any sex, of IQ 150 or above"? Ignoring
the exact values for the numbers above, which are not important, how is
this different from joining Mensa?
- 
- rec.org.mensa may be the place for you to search, but only if you believe
- that intelligence can be defined by one's syllogism-forming and 
- pattern-matching ability on a multiple-choice IQ test.

Intelligence is not *defined* that way. However, intelligence *usually* (not
always, but usually) performs well at those tasks.
- 
- All the MENSA people I've known have been hopeless socially and stuffed 
- to the gills with ego.  I've often thought of membership in Mensa as a
- convenient method of separating the people I don't want to deal with, 
- much the way I view fraternities and sororities.

I'm sorry that's been your experience. Mensa has its share of assholes, as does
any organization. I'd say that probably 75% of the people I've met in Mensa
were good people. Maybe 5% were real assholes. It happens.

How did you meet these Mensans you've known? If you knew they were Mensans
because they told it to you, then they are probably (unfortunately) in the
asshole faction, who *did* join just to be able to brag about their
intelligence. (Interestingly enough, these people also tend to be somewhat
marginal in their scores. Most of the people who qualify with ease don't
really see it as much of an accomplishment.) The only way to meet the better
Mensans is to go to events. The assholes tend to be weeded out by not being
made terribly welcome, and the people who just want to brag about their
membership aren't interested in being around people who might actually
upstage them.

--
Boycott Kodak
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Christopher M. Conway		| U*ix and C Guru
wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com      | Legalize Freedom!
wombat@juliet.ll.mit.edu        | Marrou/Lord in '92!
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