From: wagner@grace.math.uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: WHY JEWS RESENT PROSELYTIZING
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:24:05 GMT
Organization: UH Dept of Math

Mark is perfectly free to believe what he wishes--and if that
is Judaism for him, fine.  I won't lay any claim to have 
spiritual unity with him, and that should make him happy.

However, if he were to say that Christians have no right to call
themselves true spiritual descendants of Abraham, or that the
Christian faith is not taught in the Law and the Prophets, then that
is a point that we have to dispute.

"Mark" == Mark Ira Kaufman <bc744@cleveland.freenet.edu> writes:

Mark>    To begin, there is much about how Christians worship that
Mark> Jews regard as idol-worship.  From the Jewish point of view,
Mark> Christian prayer is wierd and demeaning.  Jews actually do not
Mark> have visions of God, let alone any sort of icons.

Then perhaps Daniel, who saw the Ancient of Days, was not a Jew?
Perhaps Isaiah, who "saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and
exalted" was not a Jew?  

BTW, as a Lutheran I'm not into of icons.  But some of our people
like to have pictures and statues of Jesus in their homes and 
churches, and I see nothing wrong with that. We don't worship
or pray to pictures and statues.

Mark>    Moshiach(messiah) is not a supernatural being.  He is
Mark> supposed to be a man, and only a man.  For this reason, it is
Mark> not possible for the Jewish messiah to be born, die, and be
Mark> resurrected, so he can try to get right what he never
Mark> accomplished the first time.

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, *Mighty God,*
*Everlasting Father*, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace
*there will be no end*."
--Isaiah 9: 6-7

(The messiah is true God and true man).

"I wait for the LORD, my soul waits,
and in his word I put my hope.
My soul waits for the LORD
  more than watchmen wait for the morning,
  more than watchmen wait for the morning.

O Israel, put your hope in the LORD,
for with the LORD is unfailing love
and with him is *full redemption*.
*He himself will redeem Israel 
from all their sins."
(Psalm 130: 5-8)

(King David waited for the LORD to come and redeem Israel from 
all their sins.)

Mark>    And finally, the concept of God crucifying his own son for
Mark> the sins of any other person, let alone all of humanity, is,
Mark> from the Jewish point of view, totally unacceptable.  

Who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the LORD been
revealed?

Is the crucifixion so unacceptable, if God could test Abraham by
asking him to sacrifice Isaac?  Is it so unacceptable, if Isaiah
could prophesy

"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced *for our transgressions*, he was
crushed *for our iniquities*, the punishment that *brought us
peace* was upon him, and *by his wounds we are healed.*"
(Isaiah 53:4-5)

Even from a Jewish point of view (that this is not messianic)
these verses fly in the face of your statement that each person
is completely responsible for his own sins and good works.
It is true that Psalm 49 says

No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him
the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough--
that he should live on forever
and not see decay.

But this simply points to the fact that the Messiah is not
*just* a man--he is true man and true God.


Mark> It flies
Mark> in the face of everything that is important in Judasim.

I won't try to tell you what Judaism is.  But I might try to
tell you what Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, etc. believed 
and (except perhaps for Abraham) wrote.

David H. Wagner
a confessional Lutheran