HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:05:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

From Sabirjan:

>>All of this talk about creating a 'sanitary cordon' around Russia
>>is ridiculous. Russia will not be able to preserve itself in its
>>current form. It is going to DISINTEGRATE just like the former
>>USSR did. So, in the future there will be many 'cordons' criss-
>>crossing Russia in all directions. The transition to the market
>>economy makes the disintegration an inevitability.

From Red Herring:

>Please explain, for the market economy is bringing down 'cordons'
>in both North America and Western Europe as we speak.






To put it simply, disintegration of empires is part of the global
process of economic integration. Yes, it sounds paradoxical, doesn't
it? But it seems to be a contradiction only from a superficial point
of view. The former Soviet empire consisted of many disparate regions
linked to each other economically in a very artificial and arbitrary
way. For example, much of the oil extracted in Sakhalin island is
used by industries located in the European part of Russia. Japan, which
is located next door to Sakhalin and which exports oil from the Middle
East could not use Sakhalin oil for decades. The same is true for many
many regions of Russia. Those region could not choose who to deal or
trade with even inside Russia. All economic decisions were taken by
bureaucrats in Moscow. Russia even today keeps together mostly by
political force, not by economic ties. Of course, over 7O years of
Soviet power many economic links were created between the regions.
Most of those links are not justified economically. That's why it is
so easy for Russia to disintegrate.

But as I said, this disintegration is just an initial stage in the
process of economic integration on a global scale. The regions and
former autonomous republics, once they achieve political independence,
after an initial period of alienation, will inevitably choose to
cooperate with each other. Political independence does not mean
economic isolation. One can compare this process to a mosaic. You
can not create a mosaic with pieces put together in an arbitrary way.
You have to separate its pieces and put them together in a right way.
If Russia were a real mosaic, it would be easy to control the process
of disintegration and the subsequent convergence. But in real life it's
impossible. The process of disintegration is uncontrollable. The
concomitant bloodshed is therefore hardly avoidable. In short, the
disintegration of an empire is a natural process of dispersing the
decision-making powers. Since this process is not controlled, it
will not stop at the current Russian border, it will spread like wind
over all borders.

To put it in a nutshell: There is no contradiction between what is
going on in Western Europe and in the former USSR. They are under-
going the same process of economic integration (although in Russia
this requires political DISintegration).

Sabirjan.
From: LODEESENJ@adminb.rferl.org (Username was LODEESEN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Discrimination and fascism in Estonia
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:29:39 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

Much of the impassioned argumentation in this debate really can't draw much
intellectual support from the outsiders whose opinions you should be trying to
sway.  I certainly wouldn't want to match the hostility displayed in the
discussion.  I intervene only because in one specific instance I have now
spotted a factual error which is perhaps one you can elimiminate from your
argumentation.  Neither the United States nor any other country signing the
Helsinki Agreement gave any kind of de jure recognition of the incorporation
of the Baltic countries into the Soviet Union through the affixing of their
signatures.  The Agreement, not a pact or treaty, was an undertaking by the
signatories to observe certain rights, the degree of obligation being
differentiated either by the location in the agreement or by the category
under which it was listed.  The basic position was that the signatories under-
took to assure that certain standards of human rights were observed by them in
their countries.  An additional and law-building feature was that the states
which made these undertakings accepted that their actions would be subject to
review by the other signatories, removing the idea that "beating my own wife
is my own business".  But nowhere in the agreement or in the act of signing
the agreement did anyone "recognize" the US acqisition of Alaska or the
Gadsden Purchase or Russia or the USSR's acquisitions at Geok Tepe or of the
Baltics.  The status of territory and recognition was identical after the
signing of the Agreement to what it had been prior to the signing.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Chechens
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:20:08 GMT

In article 2706@cronos.metaphor.com, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
>in article <1993Jan5.151541.25964@synapse.bms.com>, henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff) says:
># 
># Problems with Chechnya & Chechens are extremely exagurated  here.
># While I can not deny that many of Chechens are into black marketeering & shady deals,
># so is with many Georgian Jews living in Israel for instance.
>
>Oh, how interesting! You mean, the Geogian Jews in Israel proclaimed
>their independence from Izrael? And their leader said, that, if 
>anything goes wrong, he would order to explode A-bombs on Izrael's
>territory and regular bombs in the Jerusalem metro (sorry, buses)?
>
># May be it is endemic for the Caucasus... There was always underground business there 
># and bloody retaliations by used to be business partners.
># But in current situation in Russia, Chechens are chosen to become scape-goats
># for the enormous problems Russia is facing.
># Traditionally, there would be Jews to blame, but people are tired of this old trick,
>
>And, BTW, people are tired of those, who are always complaining,
>appropriate or not, about the Jews being the scape-goats.
>
># besides it will damage foreign relations.
># Resentment against Georgians, Chechens, Azeris selling farm produce at Moscow markets
># in the middle of winter (at astronomical prices) was always tremendous.
># So, why not to tell Russians that the source of their difficult conditions are
># Chechens ?
>
>I belive that there is a way. You must press the Izrael's goverment to accept
>all those poor Chechens who are persecuted on Moscow's markets, as refugees.
>
># When they will be done with Chechens, who will be next to blame? Tatars?
>
>Well, well. Sargikian-Mutlian would definitely applaud this!
>
># 
># 
># Henry. 
>-- 
>  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
> *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
> *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***


Listen, Ivan, do not panic !
You have to worry more about California earthqakes than Chechens running wild across Russia, there are Kozaks who can take care of them.
By the way:
There are Chechens living in Israel in large numbers ( since Turkish rule in Palestine), they speak Hebrew and pay taxes and they do not ask for independence,since
Israel is not Chechnya.
I do not Understand, My man, why You want to turn Chechens into refugees ?
They want independence within Russia ?/from Russia ?
Isn't this the result of fricking national politics conducted by Russians in the peripheral republics during  the Soviet Era ?


Henry.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:10376 soc.culture.soviet:12026
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: s NAU^NOJ TO^KI ZRENIQ, OTKUDA BER$TSQ TAKOE GOWNO, KAK wLADISLAW?
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:10:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan11.161031.19195
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <5uV7wB1w165w@polkan.dm.com>
dlv@polkan.dm.com (Dimitri Vulis) writes:

>a E]E S ODNOJ STORONY, HOTX wLADISLAW I L`BITX (DRO^ITX I) PIZDETX O SWOEM
>"EWREJSKOM" PROIZHOVDENII, EGO DREMU^EE NEWEVESTWO W OTNO[ENII NA[EJ RELIGII I
>KULXTURY, OBXQSNIMOE RAZWE, ^TO U OBITATELQ gIMALAEW, WKUPE S NALI^IEM KRAJNEJ
>PLOTI, OSTAWLQ`T OTKRYTYM WOPROS, NE SDELAN LI BYL NA[ EBENNYJ W ROT
>PIZDORWANEC NEPALXCEM I/ILI NEPALKOJ.

Several observations are in order.  The spurious spelling errors testifiy
to Dima's ignorance in yet another language; thus we may conclude that
his frequent gaffes in English are anything but purely accidental.
Furthermore, his abject inability to retell a plagiarized joke, amply
attests to the parrot-like limitations of his paltry, purely mimetic,
maledictory skills.  Lastly, and most tellingly, his prurient allegation
concerning the condition of other men's foreskins, suggests an abnormal
degree of sensitivity and discernment, characteristic of his delicate
rectal tissue.  Otherwise, Vulis is a fine representative of his kind.

>---
>kNIGA ANEKDOTOW O SOWETSKIH \MIGRANTAH WYHODIT skoro.

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes."
From: LODEESENJ@adminb.rferl.org (Username was LODEESEN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:52:43 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

There is no need to feel that because someone sympathizes, as does jarmo, with
the needs of small nations, that he is anti-anybody.  Persecute anyone of any
nationality and you persecute jarmo.  Persecute jarmo and you are that much
less of a person, you have diminished the value of your own culture to the
extent that your action can influence it.  I consider it to be distinctly
pro-my-groups to want to be certain that anyone who is countine on me is aware
that I do not want anyone to persecute in my name anyone else.  The relative
importance of size to national aspirations, the needs for alliances or
umbrellas, and the relative importance of how near or far your supporters are
have all changed radically for the entire world in the wake of the collapse of
the Communist threat.  All national groups are going to be reconsidering
what their needs are in this new world.  But if they have to rehash all the
grievances which grow from systems which no longer make sense but which were
very real, then they'll just perpetuate one of the uglier discardable qualities
of most cultures.  Underneath the label Russian or Estonian or Karelian is
an individual who is comfortable in one culture in a way which differs from
his relation to other cultures, even to ones he admires.  Or perhaps he doesn't
like his own.  His business.  If there are any around who read much of the
"forward-thinking" political movements of Europe in the twenties, an awful
lot of the current argumentation has a familiar ring.  It was all young and
national and filled with pride.  And what a mess it made.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Subject: Re: hu$wyj spisok reposted
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 21:02:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.202718.15994@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
>Thanks Dimitri for a huge dose of durty Russian slang you cordially shared with worldwide netters !
>I understand that You probably came from a troubled family
>where using dirty slang was a fact of life, but still it would be nice if you had some respect  and consideration for other people, and women particular...
>
>May be I am old-fasion but I still think that your so called x-rated humor does not belong to talk/politics/soviet.
>
>Henry.

What also surprised me was that Dimitri prefaced his list of Russian
obscenities by announcing that it was provided at the request of some
"Vlad". I know only 2 Vlads in this group: myself and Vlad from Australia. 
 I personally have never asked Dimitri or anybody else for any such list. I
have absolutely no interst on this matter: I am neither a psychiatrist nor
a patholinguist and have no interest in analysing Dimitry's vocabulary. 

It would be intersting if Vlad from Australia had made such request or if
we are dealing with another case of violation of Newsgroup ethics.


Vlad

Employer may disagree

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:57:46 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <01GTFL3ZY4J68Y5Q2H@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>From Sabirjan:
>
>>>All of this talk about creating a 'sanitary cordon' around Russia
>>>is ridiculous. Russia will not be able to preserve itself in its
>>>current form. It is going to DISINTEGRATE just like the former
>>>USSR did. So, in the future there will be many 'cordons' criss-
>>>crossing Russia in all directions. The transition to the market
>>>economy makes the disintegration an inevitability.
>
>From Red Herring:
>
>>Please explain, for the market economy is bringing down 'cordons'
>>in both North America and Western Europe as we speak.
>
>To put it simply, disintegration of empires is part of the global
>process of economic integration. Yes, it sounds paradoxical, doesn't
>it? But it seems to be a contradiction only from a superficial point
>of view. The former Soviet empire consisted of many disparate regions
>linked to each other economically in a very artificial and arbitrary
>way. For example, much of the oil extracted in Sakhalin island is
>used by industries located in the European part of Russia. Japan, which
>is located next door to Sakhalin and which exports oil from the Middle
>East could not use Sakhalin oil for decades. The same is true for many
>many regions of Russia. Those region could not choose who to deal or
>trade with even inside Russia. All economic decisions were taken by
>bureaucrats in Moscow. Russia even today keeps together mostly by
>political force, not by economic ties. Of course, over 7O years of
>Soviet power many economic links were created between the regions.
>Most of those links are not justified economically. That's why it is
>so easy for Russia to disintegrate.

    Sorry, wrong number.  The links that hold the xSoviet economy 
    together may be arbitrary, but they are also among the strongest, 
    due to the fact that a lot of key components/products used in the
    Soviet industry come from a single source.

    That said, the average xSoviet continues to  believe that the 
    surest way to improve one's standard of living is to stop food 
    and consumer products from being shipped outside of his/her republic, 
    by erecting new borders and hiring more border guards.  So they did,
    and created 14 more Sovok's in the process.  I suspect that yet
    more may be underway - Voronya Slobodka ne srazu stroilas'...










    







-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: br645@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Peter Woleslagle)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Bright bilingual graduate seeks employment using Russian
Date: 6 Jan 1993 01:25:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


                (Abbreviated resume)
                
                Peter L. Woleslagle
                4403 Pine St. #2R
                Philadelphia, PA 19104-3955
                (215) 222-6384
                e-mail: pwoles@ccat.sas.upenn.edu

OBJECTIVE:
        A challenging position in a corporation or organization making use of my
        Russian language skills.

EDUCATION:
        M.A. expected, University of Pennsylvania, Department of Slavic
                Languages (current)

        B.A., University of Pennsylvania, 1991.  Magna cum laude.
                Dual majors: Russian and English

PRESENT POSITIONS:
        Editorial Assistant, Slavic Review (journal)
        and Research Assistant,Perestroika Dictionary Project,
        Center for Russian and East European Studies, University of
Pennsylvania
        Responsibilities include research, translation, proofreading, editing,
        word processing.

        Freelance translator.  Worked for several clients in Philadelphia,
        including Atrun Group, Strategic Management Group, and the Wharton
        School of Business.  Work included financial, legal, biomedical, and 
        petroleum industry materials.

MISCELLANEOUS:
        - 5 months total living/study experience in Russia
        - Experienced in use of Macintosh computers and software
        - Numerically adept (GMAT 700 total; GRE 760 quantitative, 710
          analytical)
        - Some experience in youth counseling
        - Creative and analytical thinker
        - Self-starter and motivator
        - Willing to travel and/or relocate within North America, CIS, or
          Europe
        - Available June 1993
From: dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Hasan B. Blockhead
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:58:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: papillon.ucsd.edu

Post 9301052240@zuma.uucp by Hasan B. Mutlu (h.mutlu@att.att.com) has the
subject Chechens, but consists soley of a massacre story between Armenians,
"the CIS army (sic)", and Azeris. Not a Chechen in the bunch.

Just what do you do at Bell Labs anyway Hasan? Are you the janitor?
From: LODEESENJ@adminb.rferl.org (Username was LODEESEN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 9 Jan 93 18:20:07 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

In the very fair minded discussion between Tapani Hietaniemi and Misha
(aside from the unnecessary name calling), the former says:
"I am afraid that when using other, wider concepts of discrimination
we might end to the conclusion that any sovereign state "discriminates"
their population, treats the citizens and non-citizens in different
manner
"
That is what all statest do.  While sovereignty since World War II, and in
particular since Helsinki, is far more restricted than was formerly the case,
its essential element remains the power to discriminate, a power exercised by
all states claiming to be sovereign.  Any state which does not discriminate
ceases to exist and either becomes pirate territory or comes under the control
of someone else.  The only issue is on what grounds the state discriminates
and how the policies are carried out.  Both are now subject to international
review and are no longer the sole province of the state, but the right to
discriminate is.  I think your discussion will go better if you will both
concede this and then weigh the acts of discrimination against the established
(and developing) international standards, the practice of other states in
similar positions, and the "bottom line" which is the right of the state to
do for the purpose of maintaining an otherwised untenable existence the
minimum necessary even if that minimum might not be acceptable for another
state not similarly threatened.  So, does Estonia have the right to
discriminate in favor of one group over another in order to maintain its
existence?  Unquetionably.  Would it be smart for it to do so in disregard
of its real postion in the world?  Equally unquetionably.  The boundaries
between those two limits rather than advocacy of the right to discriminate
or the complaint that discrimination is occurring would be productive
ground for you to explore.
  I enjoy what you're doing.  Keep it up.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:50:15 EST
 <1993Jan2.231356.4579@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> <Jan.2.21.49.15.1993.15645@pilot.njin.net>
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

 hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes (to Michael
Kagalenko):


>If you want accolades for your mind-numbing posts
>your should have brought your hick friends with you. I'm
>sure they would have given you applause that you seem to
>crave.

	Dear Mark, you couldn't get the applause even
	from hick friends - only from AI program :)
	Pity that you are so insistent on bullshitting...


>I'll give you a little hint from America. If you get into a
>street fight, you'll keep getting whacked as long as you keep
>standing up and trying to fight back a losing battle. Any one
>who has enough sense, admits defeat when beaten. Even dogs
>and wolves don't attack one when the defeated tucks its
>tail between its legs :-)..

	You probably mean that you outflamed Michael.
	Surely you did not. Generic PC flames are
	dozen per dime, you know.

>People who realize they've written stupid things usually
>have enough sense to keep quiet. 

	Hmmm? 

	Misha.
	

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 07:09:46 GMT

Henry Mednikoff (henry@bms.com) wrote:

: For a single russian individual living in the Baltic States Your ethnic
 statistics  is meaningless . This person does not care wether karelian
 culture and language are not up to european standards,or wether there are
 over 100mln. russians in Europe and he is majority in Europe..Big deal ! 
: He was born in Latvia, his home & job was always there, but You want to
 displace him because he is not of your breed, you feel he does not belong
 there, he is just statistics for you.The main purpose of all changes
 in the Baltic states  is to kick ethnic russians out.

Of course you are correct from that point. I just wonder some things.
Why the fact that the russians are practically kicked out from Caucasus
is not a matter of concern but specially Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
Are they estimated still being a part of "New Imperium" if  Caucasus
and Central-Asia goes off.

The other thing is that sometimes I think that on this net people underestimate
the strength of russian culture.

I estimate, but of course do not know exactly, that in the Baltic states
from individual point of view the russians face a very strage situation.
For the first time they can I think during decades  by a Free Choise
choose whether they apply for a citicenship of a country "x" or
a country "y" or do I emigrate away to a country "z".
I think it confuses because it is a new
situation for an "x-soviet citizen". A possibility to choose freely. And I
think some speculate and do not do their decision quickly bacause they are
confused, do not know what is best for ME.

For me this is supported by the news that very few non-estonians have
applied in matter of fact the citizenship of Estonia even if they have
had a right to do so. They I think that quite many are speculating (in a good
sence of the word) and waiting and cannot choose.

One weakness is of course that we have not real Balticrussians on the net,
even Estonia's estonians are absent. We all write from outside, do we.
: 
regards,
jarmo
From: FZC@nihcu.bitnet ("Paul Robinson, Contractor")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Don't make us guess where you are!
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:22:51 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

A note to people: PLEASE PUT YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS IN THE
TEXT OF YOUR MESSAGE!

- Some systems lose the sender's address, especially
  on messages coming from lists.
- Some systems return a wierd UUCP "Bang" ! format of
  someone!someoneelse!anotherone! and so on for three
  or four lines.
- Some systems chop off the sender's address if there
  is a different FROM and SENDER and REPLY-TO address.

PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS AS PART OF THE END OF
YOUR MESSAGE.

Thank you,
Paul Robinson - TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM
These opinions are mine alone.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet