HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Double citizenship in ESTONIA
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 16:58:25 GMT

Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>Still, one must make an important qualification: The refugees who fled
>Estonia because of the Stalinistic occupation and were Estonian citizens may
>hold the other citizenship they have got. But, Taagepera could not
>become president with double citizenship. That is why he declared
>in his campaign that if he will be elected, he will give up
>his Canadian citizenship.

An interesting question is Jaan Manitski who became foreign
minister in Estonia only 2-3 three weeks after he had (re)-
acquired Estonian citizenship. Has he given up his Swedish
citizenship? Whether he qualifies to hold double citizenship,
I am not realy certain. I think he was born in Estonia, but
I am not sure whether it was 1940 or earlier. His parents escaped 
with him from Estonia during WWII, though.

Two other interesting persons are Andres K"ung and Peter Luksep
who both were members of the Estonian Congress who at least for
a while claimed to be the "real" parlamentary assembly of
Estonia. Both Messers K"ung and Luksep are active on high levels
in Swedish political parties; K"ung in the board of the Liberal
Party while Luksep has a seat in the Swedish parliament for
the Conservatives. Or at least they used to have, but I haven't
heard anything about any resignment of theirs. Again, whether
these gentlemen fulfils the requirements I don't know.

However, I think one should not dig into too deep into this
double citizenship issue. Sweden and several other countries
do acknowledge double citizenship, but usually not as a flick
of the impulse, but there has to be special conditions. For
instance, an immigrant who wants to aquire citizenship in his
new country, but whose old country refuse him the right to
renounce his old citizenship.

In case of the Russians in Estonia, there are no special circum-
stances involved. It is also obvious that they cannot have both 
Russian and Estonian citizenship. If some few people have
double loyalties, the state does not crumble, but if some 30-40%
have citizenship in another state which is a potential enemy
then things can become quite scary.

Incidently, the same argument applies also to the situation
when there is a similar body of resident non-citizens who are 
all citizens of a potential enemy.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Confusing the issue
Date: 26 Sep 92 11:16:54 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Jarmo Ryyti (ryyti@jyu.fi) writes:
>Just an example: In Iceland you cannot get citizenship if you do not
>pass the language test in icelandic and besides that ONE HAVE TO TAKE
>AN ICELANDIC NAME, change his/her previous foreign name into
>icelandic one. Iceland is still a member of the United Nations and Council
>of Europe! NO international protests!

Please leave out irrelevant comparisons. Had there been a large
group of residents on Iceland who would have been excluded from
citizenship because of these rules, you can bet there would have
been protests.

On the other hand, had the Estonian rules not excluded a large
group of the population in Estonia, no one would have bothered.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Confusing the issue
Date: 29 Sep 1992 02:35:05 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:


>sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>: Jarmo Ryyti (ryyti@jyu.fi) writes:
>: >Just an example: In Iceland you cannot get citizenship if you do not
>: >pass the language test in icelandic and besides that ONE HAVE TO TAKE
>: >AN ICELANDIC NAME, change his/her previous foreign name into
>: >icelandic one. Iceland is still a member of the United Nations and Council
>: >of Europe! NO international protests!
>: 
>: Please leave out irrelevant comparisons. Had there been a large
>: group of residents on Iceland who would have been excluded from
>: citizenship because of these rules, you can bet there would have
>: been protests.

>Iceland is no irrevelant comparison. Iceland have very strict citizenship
>laws BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO REMAIN HER NATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS.

[...]

The Communist Party had very strict entry requirements too. If you're
Jewish, you couldn't get in. That's because the Communist Party wanted
to retain her ``national characteristics".

And, of course, the Communist Party was justified because Iceland, a
country in the middle of the Atlantic with 300 000 citizens, had a
similar policy with regards to citizenship.

Welcome to the monkeyhouse.


John Wojdylo



Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:8299 soc.culture.soviet:8320
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Human rights VIOLATIONS in ESTONIA
Date: 3 Oct 1992 10:41:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner) writes:

>> Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:14:17 GMT
>> From: thietaniemi@CC.HELSINKI.FI
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> (ESTONIAN) INDEPENDENCE LOST
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On June 16, 1940, a Soviet ultimatum demanded a new Estonian government,
>> "able and willing to secure the honest application of the Soviet - Estonia
>> mutual assistance treaty." The following day Soviet armed forces occupied
>> the whole country, and on June 19 Andrei Zhdanov, a member of the Kremlin
>> Politburo, arrived in Tallin to complete the designs of the Soviet
>> government. On June 21 a puppet government headed by Johannes Vares
>> took over.

>Could anyone suggest some sources providing more details of events of
>first days and weeks after occupation? In particular, what was a (formal)
>procedure for establishing Vares' goverment? Did parliament take place in it?
>What was the position and behaviour of various political forces concerning
>the events? One knows that people at the gunpoint could not be required
>to be heroes, still often they come to be. In particular, it would be worth
>comparing behaviour of Russian liberal and conservative politicians during
>1917 to Estonians in 1940.


In particular, could somebody enlighten the newsgroup as to the
circumstances and political influences surrounding the establishment of
the so-called Arajs Kommando and SD divisions of that ilk, which carried
out the murder of over 50 000 jews and gypsies in the years 1941
onwards?

And, after that, perhaps someone could tell us about local political
influences surrounding the setting up of the Furstenberg school which
trained the local police in the methods of Heinrich Himmler's SS, a
school which had only two purposes: (1) to prepare men to carry out mass murder;
(2) to train them for the anti-partisan war fought against those who
opposed the Germans.

Finally, perhaps our Finnish observers would like to explain why the
Furstenberg school, the Arajs Kommando and the other SD divisions had no
shortage of fighters for their cause in occupied Latvia and Estonia.


John Wojdylo
Perth, Western Australia
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: Workers
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 20:11:39 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <92274.145351SXZ104@psuvm.psu.edu>  <SXZ104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>       WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>UNITY.
>
>" TIME IS NOT ABSOLUTE "

I agree that my favorite vodka is not time. Do not drink too much of it, though

Oleg
From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Kuwaity Estonia ?
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:58:05 EDT

  Recently the company of Iran, Estonia, Saudi Arabia
and similar democratic nations was joined by Kuwait:
they held their first "democratic" elections in 6 years.
Now one could understand where did Estonians get an idea
of barring 40% of their population from elections - they
borrowed it from Kuwait ! Though the nearby european
surrounding prevented Estonia from following the Kuwaity
model in full. Unlike Kuwait, where in elections could
participate only 14% of population (those could trace
their ancestry to 1922), Estonians need to trace their
anscestry only to 1940.

  [1;5;7m Serega & Co [0m
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Parlamentary elections in the Republic of Georgia
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:08:08 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <AAu_qpgCi6@coira.kheta.georgia.su> ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su writes:

>                                   Caucasian Institute for
>                                   Peace, Democracy and Development

    Isn't that an oxymoron?


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: borcherj@ccmail.orst.edu (Jeff Borchers)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Help needed
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:56:09 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>


          Sorry to clutter the waves, but I set the NOMAIL option for
          this list a month ago, and now I can't reverse it (and
          postmasters keep ignoring me).  Someone please tell me the
          command structure for getting the list mail flowing again.
          Send info directly to:

            -----------------------------------------------------------
             Jeffrey G. Borchers             Tel: 503-750-7264
             Department of Forest Science    FAX: 503-737-1303
             Oregon State University         borchers@fsl.orst.edu
             Corvallis, OR 97331             borcherj@ccmail.orst.edu
             USA
           ------------------------------------------------------------
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Enigmatic double citizenship in ESTONIA
Date: 4 Oct 92 07:58:40 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Oct3.220829.4837@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) 
writes:
> Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>>Exactly. I suppose that only those citizens that are permanent residents
>>in Estonia will have the right to vote in the next elections.
> 
> That would indeed be strange. I mean most countries do allow
> their citizens to vote in national elections, even if they
> are living abroad, don't they? At least for a certain time.
> I think there was - I'm uncertain whether there still is -
> a limit on seven years for how long you could be reside outside
> Sweden and still be entitled to vote in national elections.

The Finnish system is in this respect similar to the Swedish one.
However, the USA does not allow the citizens that are not permanent
residents of USA to vote in their elections. Correct me, if I am
mistaken! And, of course, it is no ARGUMENT to have a system that might
be similar to the US system!
 
> On the other hand, the case of John Johnson
> seems highly theoretical to me. If you get a citizenship, you
> are probably interested of what is going on in Estonia as well.

Unfortunately, the case in not a theoretical one. Nobody knows
for sure how many Estonian citizens there are all around the world.
(The number might be near 100.000, but your guess is as good as mine.)
In principle, they could outnumber the Estonians living in Estonia
after some generations.

As I said before, in practice John Johnsons did not do any harm
for Estonia in the previous elections. Only 8.500 Estonian
citizens did cast their vote in these elections. I would not
call that a deep "interest" towards Estonia.

Would you like to join the bet with your hundred crowns (Estonian, not
Swedish: as a rule of thumb, Scandinavian crowns equal about two
Estonian crowns)?
 
>>With hundred crowns, one can buy three pints of the best Danish beer in
>>a Tallin pub (Tallin = Taani linn = Denmark's city).
> 
> Hm, is "Taani" really "Denmark's"? I thought it rather was "Danish".
 
"Taani" means both "Denmark" and "Denmark's". "Danish" = "taanlane".


AN ESTONIAN -   FINNISH -    SWEDISH - MINI-LESSON:

Eesti           Viro         Estland           Estonia
Soome           Suomi        Finland           Finland
Vene            Vena"ja"     Ryssland          Russia
Rootsi          Ruotsi       Sverige           Sweden
Taani           Tanska       Danmark           Denmark
o~lu            olut         o"l               beer

Palun,          Yksi olut,   En o"l,           Gimme 
u"ks o~lu!      kiitos!      tack!             a beer!
 

(Jeg haaber det jeg skrev vaer ikke forkert)
med beste hilsen
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Furstenberg and other things (Was: Human
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:09:10 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1araklINNj85@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) writes:
> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> 
>>In article <1ajtc2INNsvg@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au
>>(INFIDEL) writes:>
>>> Finally, perhaps our Finnish observers would like to explain why the
>>> Furstenberg school, the Arajs Kommando and the other SD divisions had no
>>> shortage of fighters for their cause in occupied Latvia and Estonia.
>>> John Wojdylo
>> Perth, Western Australia
> 
>>Why are WE supposed to explain that? 
>>What is the thing that NEEDS to be explained?
> 
> 
> Why on earth should any supporters of the Estonian citizenship laws 
> learn about Estonian's dubious recent history on matters of ethnic
> relations ?
 
I think I know something about Estonian recent history. If you answer
the questions above, I might reply to you.

Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki

 
>>Tapani Hietaniemi
> 
> JW
From: alexm@CIPR-SERVER.MGH.HARVARD.EDU ("", Alex Milshteyn)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Help needed
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:06:06 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Organization: Mass General Hospital CIPR

Hi:
How DO you set NOMAIL status?
How do you unset it?

Thanks in advance,


Alex M. Milshteyn
From: paulo@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Marxism
Date: 1 Oct 92 06:55:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:BuuoxJ.65p@umassd.edu:-1035118441:peg:516000001:000:1563
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!paulo    Oct  1 01:55:00 1992



Suggest you read a Marxist book by Stalin written when he was
Commissar for Nationalities. Despite being a Georgian, he took on
the mantle of Great Russian chauvinism, and somehow interpreted
this as being part and parcel of Marxism, which of course is
bullshit. You have to remember that he at one time was also
training as a Russian Orthodox priest. His understanding of
Marxism was of a backward peasant/semi-feudal variety, i.e., "MY
plot of land". Given that the Orthodox church was an arm of trhe
czarist state, he understood Marxism as Great Russian (in a tribal
sense), dogmatically semi-religious, and incredibly statist
(against Lenin's teaching of an eventual 'withering away of the
state). Hence he was suspicious of the urban working class (and
got rid of most working class communists), and instituted a tribal
reign of terror against rebelious nataionalities. The state was
reinforced as the official church for dogma, and Lenin was
enshrined as a demi-god (which Lenin would have blanched at, I'm
sure).

Thus the short answer to how "Marxists" unified the Soviet Union,
is Stalin and the influences on him. It is not enough to say that
it was "guns": that's reification, i.e., attributing things as
having deterministic qualities, without looking at the actual
social forces behind those guns. Therefore, the question boils
down to: what social forces in the Soviet union of the 1920's did
Stalin really represent? And what did that mean for all people in
the Soviet Union at the rtime?

Regards,

Paul Oboohov (Pavel Obuhov), Sydney, Australia
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian Vouchers in the Baltics?
Date: 2 Oct 92 01:20:22 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki



In article <1992Oct1.145147.11584@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, wgi@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
(Bill Innanen) writes:>
> Does anyone know whether Russia plans to disburse vouchers to the ethnic
> Russian residents of the Baltic states?  That is, does Russia recognize
> these people as Russian citizens, citizens of the Baltic states, both, or
> neither?

> Bill Innanen

According to my humble understanding, Russia could not have any reason
whatsoever to deal vouchers to people that might still apply for some
Baltic citizenship. If a permanent resident of, say, Estonia decides to
registrate him/herself as a Russian citizen, it's another story.

Recognizing the Russian speaking residents in the Baltic states that have
not decided to take the Russian citizenship as Russian citizens could
create an international legal scandal. I think that some people in the Russian
parlament are claiming instead that Russia should promote the interests of
those people even they are not Russian citizens.

with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: nemnogo o Stepane (bylo: "Enigmatic
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:25:34 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:38:51 GMT
>From: "(Irina Levi - Sun East Coast IR Development)"
              <ilevi@NOCHARGE.EAST.SUN.COM>

>In article 1@cc.helsinki.fi, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi () writes:
>In article <9209302353.AA19563@feds66.Prime.COM>, dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM
>("", Dmitri Leschiner) writes:

>> There was a number of memorable Stephans in Russian history;
>> one of the most honoured was Stephan Permskij of XVI century,
>> the baptiser and enlightener of Permians (Komi), relatives of
>> Finns (not so closed as Estonians though). He created the
>> original Permian alphabet and translated Gospels and worship books
>> into Permian.

>> But Permians are still a large nation now, and
>> they have two republics within Russia: Komi Republic and Komi-Permian
>> Republic (or is the latter still an autonomous region

>   1. What about Stepan Razin?
>      Ever heard of him?
>   2. Perm is a city, not a In article (null), thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi ()
> writes:
> nation.

>   Irina ( s privetom)


Privet, Irina s privetom!

Otvechayu:

1. Yes, I heard a lot of Stepan Razin, Stepan Xalturin, Stepan Kalyaev
   and other criminals, but did not consider it necessary to mention them,
   and still don't.

2. Perm' is a nation, my sweety,
   and Molotov is a city.

Dmitry s privetom tozhe
From: wgi@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Bill Innanen)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Russian Vouchers in the Baltics?
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:51:47 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

>From the "RFE/RL Daily Report No. 189, 1 October 1992"
>[...]
>VOUCHER PRIVATIZATION BEGINS TODAY AMID UNCERTAINTY.  The Russian
>government will launch its mass privatization program today by
>beginning to issue vouchers to each Russian citizen.  The
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>distribution process is scheduled to last three months.  The
>vouchers represent claims on state assets which will be auctioned
>off beginning some time next year. Western news agencies on 30
>September catalogued the problems confronting the program. The
>major obstacles include: delays in printing and delivering the
>vouchers; delays in state enterprises transforming themselves into
>public share companies; outstanding questions about which state
>assets the vouchers can be traded for; and confusion among the
>Russian people over how the voucher program works. (Erik Whitlock,
>RFE/RL Inc.)
>
>[...]

Does anyone know whether Russia plans to disburse vouchers to the ethnic
Russian residents of the Baltic states?  That is, does Russia recognize
these people as Russian citizens, citizens of the Baltic states, both, or
neither?

Bill
--
Bill Innanen             (Internet) wgi@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
#include <stdDisclaimers.h>   /* Unless otherwise noted */
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Drinking kumys (Was: Enigmatic double
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:26:34 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki


In article <9210030109.AA24145@feds66.Prime.COM>, 
dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner) writes:
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> BTW, The Finnish state president Koivisto is visiting the sunny Uzbekistan
>> today. Yesterday the Uzbeks treated him with kumys, which must have
>> caused him a unique case of hangover.
>>
> 
> Oh, well, why?? Did you try kumys? You don't like it?
> It's unusual, I agree; might be for Finns even more,
> but is it so vomit-causing indeed? Or you think he got
> ehough of it to become completely drunk:)? Actually, I guess,
> adult man must drink about 5 liters of kumys to become drunk.
> I'm not sure Mr. Koivisto possess such a big desire to this beverage...
> 
> Cheers,
> za vashe zdorov'e
> 
> Dmitry

I have never had a possibility to try it. What is it like? It is not
like sour milk with some vodka in it, I suppose... Is it like
the Mexican pulque?

Cheers,
Kippis (Finnish: dates back to German "kipp es!")

Tapani
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Parlamentary elections in the Republic of Georgia
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:01:24 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <AAu_qpgCi6@coira.kheta.georgia.su>, ggom@coira.kheta.georgia.su 
(Dr. George V. Gomelaury) writes:> 
>      The Caucasian Institute for Peace, Democracy and Development
> (a non-governmental, non-profit organization) has prepared
> information materials for the Parliamentary elections in Georgia
> coming on 11th of October, 1992. You will find here a brief
> introductory note which gives a general political background and an
> outline of the pre-Election situation, also concise information on
> each of 47 parties who take part in the Elections: their
> background, ideology, claimed membership, organizational structure,
> leaders and most popular figures, international connections, pre-
> electoral hopes and ratings, addresses and telephones.
> 
>      The information may be available through E-mail.
> Unfortunately, we cannot afford sending it free of charge.
> 
>      Please contact us if you are interested.
>         E-mail (Internet): ggom@kheta.georgia.su
> 
> 
>                                    Ghia Nodia
> 
> 
>                                    Chair, Board
>                                    Caucasian Institute for
>                                    Peace, Democracy and Development

Sounds interesting indeed.
But: how much will you charge and on what?

with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki