From: auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer)
Subject: Re: Feminist Jokes
Organization: Swarthmore College, PA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:46:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.185722.19518@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <XKRSBGPT@cc.swarthmore.edu> auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov2.043610.1545@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>In article <JMLSBX8Y@cc.swarthmore.edu> auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes:
>>>>In article <JIM.92Oct27222122@fuji.eng.yale.edu> jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu (James J. Szinger) writes:
>>>>>>Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
JJS>I haven't seen my favorite answer yet:
JJS>Four.  One to change the bulb, one to complain that the bulb is
JJS>violating the socket, one to secretly wish she were the socket,
JJS>and one to secretly wish she were the bulb.
DSA>>I like that joke; I thought it was funny.  I like pornography; I find it
DSA>>erotic.
DSA>>Nonetheless, I find both the joke and pornography to be offensive, not in and
DSA>>of themselves, but because they are tools for maintaining the current power
DSA>>imbalance in society.
RP>>Does this actually mean -anything-? Does this "power balance" argument mean
RP>>anything, anything at all?
DSA>Yes, there are more men in positions of control over the lives of other people.

RP>Like the porni imbalance being discussed, what is the significance? Can you
RP>show a single example of such a balance, anywhere, anytime? I make the 
RP>observation that this is probably not a stable point, as personal and
RP>group differences will tend to destabalize any such balance. Can you show that
RP>it is a realisitic and/or meaningful concept? 

It is both.  You acknowledge with your claims their is an imbalance.
Injustice is clearly present, realistic, and meaningful.  Balance/justice is
the negation of this concept.  Thus it is meaningful.  Rousseau spoke of
justice as a torch to be approached.  Plato futzed about with his forms.  For
as long as humanity has existed we have had ideals.  I am sure you have an
ideal or two yourself.  Ideals are what individuals strive towards.  It is
what makes humans great and life livable.  Even if we doubt whether our goals
may be attained, our striving and struggle gives our lives meaning and
pleasure.  What can be more realistic than that?

RP>>Can you show me one example in all of human history where there was any
RP>>sort of a power balance between, or even among the sexes?
DSA>No.

RP>Do you claim that this is strictly and only the result of discrimination
RP>and prejudice?

I would be a fool to let you put such vacuous statements in my mouth.  It is
the ways things are and ever will be. (Until the Messiah comes, whatever.)
The fact that complete justice and balance is not necessarily attainable by
humans.  (Though perhaps it might be.  Anyone could be the Messiah.)  This
fact does not release us from our responsibility to strive for that which is
better and more just.

RP>>Please do. Tell me what this means. If it means that reality does
RP>>not conform to your expectations, I got news for ya, it never will. And
RP>>more news, it ain't the way I'd prefer it either.
DSA>Not my expectations.  My notions of justice.

RP>Notions of justice change over time. I suspect this is why we will never
RP>see justice. Ideals evolve faster than societies.

This does not either release us from our obligations.  Just because someone
else held different ideas than you do, does that mean you are willing to
forsake these beliefs?  Of course not.  I know what is right.  If you disagree
fine.  Don't think you can cow me into altering my beliefs with a cheap
relativism you don't believe in yourself.

RP>[...]

DSA>>I look around at the world and I see a lot more injustices directed at
DSA>>women than men.  Simple observation.  From that I decide that the
DSA>>injustices should be fought.  I am not perfect nor am I particularly
DSA>>powerful, thus my impact upon these issues may be small.
RP>>Well, if you are a male, use some of that "power imbalance" to fix the 
RP>>problem and stop whining about it. Apologies if I incorrectly assumed
RP>>that David is a male name.

Your stereotype proved true.  (;

DSA>I would be happy to.  I am not in a position of power though.
RP>But it is claimed that -all- males have power over -all- females, is it not?

Within reason, yes.  Intentionally or otherwise, you blur the notion of power.
The power I was speaking of was the more disciplined, constructive force of
change.  The power you brought up was the power to intimidate and coerce.
These are different aspects of power and are non-convertable over the open
market.

RP>>BTW, do you believe that counter injustices and legislation with either a
RP>>pro-female or anti-male bias will make the world a better place in which
RP>>to live? Many seem to feel that it is the only way to change things.
DSA>I don't think we need to go to extremes.

RP>I did not make these things up.

Agreed.

DSA>>Neither this limitation nor the fact that there exists grave resistance and
DSA>>that not all of my efforts will succeed release me of the responsibility to
DSA>>behave conscientiously.
RP>>Nor myself. But failing to fall in line with the PC feminist movement
RP>>will make you unpopular in some circles. And it has even cost men their
RP>>jobs. I will have to post that tidbit later.
DSA>You are correct.  More circles are male chauvinist than the extremes of PC you
DSA>allude to.

RP>Are you prepared to document this, or add one of those silly IMHO's?

No, I am rather going to say, "Come, come now."  And, furthermore:
IMHO, my opinion is not humble.

DSA>>Search your hearts.  From there springs the truth.
RP>>No, from there springs your feelings. That you feel opressed does not
RP>>make anyone your oppressor. Your feelings are an accurate gauge of how
RP>>your training and past interact with the present situation. They are not
RP>>an accurate gauge of the world, what it means, or even what has happened.
DSA>You got me there.  Do you think I learned?  Somehow I doubt it.

RP>Huh?

If you cannot beat your opponent by brute force or logic, stun him/her with
concession.

I would like to amend my concession, however, and say that a lot of good things
emanate from the heart (if not all.)  Nonetheless, it is nice to use the brain
as an interpreter.

RP>[...]
RP>If there is a problem, then a solution should be sought. What we have is
RP>more of a sexist blame game. Fixing the blame can be lucrative, as
RP>disempowering as victimhood must be. I just have not observed that
RP>fixing the blame has fixed the problem. 

Some times blame is useful, especially when you have been materially wronged.
My blaming you, Rich, as a person would be silly and stupid.  Blaming segments
of the male population for their evil ways is not silly nor stupid, but rather
the order of the day.

RP>Rich
RP>payner@netcom.com

-dave

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