From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: GURPS Martial Arts (was Re: GURPS Armor)
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:55:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov5.205517.5473
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University


	The basis of CX6L's rebuttal seems to be a view of reality where 
an armed fighter must back off and be wary of an unarmed fighter. 

	My opinion is that this view is seriously in need of a reality check. 
Talk to any martial artist about facing *skilled* opponents with weapons. It 
might be safe to say that an unskilled thug with a knife will be challenged 
by an unarmed, skilled martial artist. But if equally skilled opponents face 
each other - say a kenjutsu master against a judoka, or a green belt against 
a weekend SCA fighter (with a *real* blade) - it should not be as easy as it 
is to close in past a blade, or to parry that weapon with your bare hands. 

CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L) writes:
>     Most real locks, throws and holds are initiated by grabbing an 
>incoming weapon or limb. Once grabbed, the weapon in the captured hand is 
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^

	I think this is the key phrase. It is not that easy to get into 
close combat and grab the arm of someone *skilled* with a sword. Unless 
there is an imbalance of skill, the most likely result is that the unarmed 
opponent will get skewered (or more likely will not try such a rash move). 

>
>     As for armour, it will slow you and obstruct vision enough that a 
>dodging, weaving, ducking martial-artist in light clothing can easily stay 
>out of reach until you screw up or he trips you. Once you're down, a quick 
>pin, followed by a finger in the eye, or the removal of your helmet and a 
>head-shot..is your fate.

	Have you ever operated in armor? I have only once, but really it is 
not significantly different than without. You tire out a little faster, 
but that's about it. (This is chainmail - obviously full plate is going to 
be more cumbersome, but that is a different story.) 
	At any rate, if what you say is true, then GURPS is sadly lacking 
in representing this disadvantage due to armor. The Move penalty of medium 
armor (like chainmail) does not put you at any real disadvantage against an 
unarmored foe. 

>
>While parrying weapons is hard, the fact that Karate and Judo are P/H as 
>opposed to P/A like most weapons skills is ample justification for it. 

	I fail to see this. Karate and Judo skills will average 1 less than 
P/A weapon skills for the same number of points. At DX12, for example, 4 
points in Broadsword skill will give you a base 6 to parry another sword, 
while 4 points in Judo will give you a base 8 to parry. Given the same 
amount of training, it is easier to parry a sword with your hands than with 
another broadsword. That is wrong. 

	Furthermore, as I said, it is just as easy to parry a sword with 
Judo than it is to parry a punch. That is silly. 

>
>	First, most weapons are easier to use than bare-handed fighting: 
>most weapons require a single P/E or P/A skill, while a skilled martial-
>artist requires several P/H skills *and* maneuvers besides. Second, most
>weapons do far more damage than bare hands and feet. Third, many weapons 
>give a sizeable reach advantage over bare hands and feet. 

	One does not need maneuvers or multiple skills to be a tough unarmed 
opponent in GURPS. A decent level in Judo, some leather armor, and Combat 
Reflexes, and you have a viable opponent. Points in Arm Lock and Disarm 
help, certainly, but are not neccessary. 

>	The key lies in players of armed fighters learning to exploit tha 
>advantages of a weapon, and not letting the unarmed fighter get in to his 
>range. If all the fighter does is close and swing, *he deserves whatever he 
>gets*!!! He should feint, step back, feint, step back...forcing the unarmed 
>fighter to close from beyond Grappling distance (1 hex) under conditions
>where he is feinted and hence at a defensive disadvantage. 

	The unarmed fighter will just keep his distance, so you are unable to 
feint at him. Then he closes with a Slam, parrying your blow as he does so. 
Even if he fails to knock you down, he is now in your hex, and can step and 
grapple on his next turn. 
	Alternatively, he can All-Out Attack to close the distance, and take 
a +4 on his chance to lock your weapon arm, and then can very likely break 
it before you can get out. 

	Certainly neither of these is a sure thing. It is perfectly possible 
for the weaponed fighter to win. But the odds are far too close, IMO. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "even BETTER THAN THE REAL THING"
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |
Columbia University         |             - U2
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc