HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: deano@areyes.com (Dean Carpenter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta Lovers and everybody else...
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:19:41 GMT
Organization: Areyes, Inc.

In article <52503@mimsy.umd.edu> infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell) writes:
#In article <52407@mimsy.umd.edu> uswnvg!rchrist@uunet.UU.NET (Ron Christian) writes:
###[yet another repeat of the disassembled Beretta urban legand]
##
##(3)  If you're really afraid that the bad guy can take your gun apart before
##you can shoot him, get a rubber grommet and put it around the button opposite
##the take down lever.  This prevents the bad guy from pushing the button.  And
##if he can take the grommet off and then take the gun apart before you can fire,
##you're really a house plant and you don't need to carry a gun.
#
#You can also have the button milled down so I am told.

  I don't understand all this.  I have a 92F, and the only way to break
it down is to *remove* the magazine.  With the mag in place, that slide
just ain't going anywhere.

  Well, almost.  It does move forward just a tad, and enough to prevent
the hammer from striking the firing pin.  But it certaintly doesn't
come apart.

-- 
Dean Carpenter		uunet!areyes!deano		(203) 847-6003
Areyes, Inc.		deano@areyes.com

"No matter where you go, there you are"  sayeth Buckaroo 								 across the Eighth Dimension
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "GLOCK" - A Book Review
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:30:40 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <52977@mimsy.umd.edu> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
#=     According to Peter Kasler, amphib. spring cups are restricted sale
#=     items by Glock, although not due to any legal restrictions.
#Just as a matter of curiosity, aside from the obvious "because it's there"
#reason, why would one want one?

Perhaps to amaze your friends by demonstrating underwater target practice.
Certainly this would be a new phase of one's sporting shooting activity.
From: gt8303a@prism.gatech.edu (The Great and Mighty Confused)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Skeet/Trap Guns...Help!
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:50 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <53244@mimsy.umd.edu> M20069@MBVM.mitre.org (Joseph H. Downing) writes:
#Are there any Skeet/Trap shooters out there?  If so, could you please explain
#the difference between the weapons used for each?
# 
#Thanks in Advance,
#Joe Downing

I shoot skeet and I know the primary difference between the guns for skeet and
trap.  It is the choke.  Trap targets are "killed" at a longer distance from    
the shooter than skeet, where the targets can pass almost directly overhead by
the time you reach the last station.  I own and use a Beretta 686 English
Sporting Clays 12 gauge, which is a skeet gun.  I have tried to shoot trap with
it and other skeet guns and the shot pattern is simply not close enough to 
break the bird at such a range.  Hope this helps...


Andy Entrekin
gt8303a@hydra.gatech.edu
From: dbruce@athena.mit.edu (David M Bruce)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: capstun shelf-life
Date: 11 Apr 92 23:43:40 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <52961@mimsy.umd.edu> jvh@nature.berkeley.edu writes:
#
#Does anyone know the life of a capstun spray?  I know that the
#various mace sprays are no good after a couple years (sometimes
#sooner), but does this hold also for the capstun spray?  I see
#no expiration date on the capstun dog spray available in CA,
#(for dogs only).
#
#Joan V
#
The info from the old maker "Lucky Police Products" in FL said it was
pretty much good forever.  Just have to make sure you shake it every 
year or so.

Dave Bruce
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226 vs. P228
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:13:26 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:

#After reading the specs on the SIG P226 and P228 I noticed that the P228
#will accept P226 magazines.  On the 15 rounds magazines, does a small
#portion of it stick out of the bottom of the butt of the P228?  

Yes!

#The P226 is a bit longer than the P228, but the P228's magazine has 13
#round capacity.  Is the P228 just a more compact version P226 that can 
#accept P226 magazines?

Yes!

#I'm considering a SIG P226, but if the P228 is better, I may just want
#that instead.  For those of you who have tried both, which did you
#prefer and why?  I plan on trying both of them when I do buy if I can.

I own a P226, but have shot both. I like them both.
The P226 is slightly larger, other than that (and the slightly different grips)
they are identicle. I think the magazines for the P228 are more expensive.
If you want a "compact" go with the P228. If you want the best overall combat
pistol go with the P226.

#For concealment and reloading purposes to carry a P228 with its stock
#13 round magazine in it and 15 round P226 magazines for extra ammunition?
#     // JCA

That will work, although the P228 is not *that* much more concealable than the
P226 (just slightly).
One thing to remember is this: The grips are slightly different, so compare
them and choose the one most comfortable for you.
I'm sure you'll love either!
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Revolver Hammer Shrouds...
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:35 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
## As a tangent, I would like to say that a nice combination for carry
## imo would be a stainless Taurus m85C (20 oz, bobbed hammer) loaded
## with the seemingly non-existant PMC tubular hollowpoints.    The vel
## is chronied at ~1350+ fps out of snubbies, and it's a 66 grain 
## "cookie cutter" brass ring that supposedly will cut corks through
## fleshy targets.

#Would such a load expand at all? If it didn't then all you have is a
#.357 diameter hole all the way through. Practically any non-hollowpoint
#.38 special ammo would do the same thing. While actually severing the
#tissue might be more effective than shoving it aside, it isn't apparent
#to me that this is the case. Does anyone have data on this point.

Nothing except an anectdote by Mas Ayoob where he said an armed perp got
winged in the sholder flesh, then immediately passed out from blood loss.
Doesn't prove a thing either way, but it's a neat idea.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: My 2nd Gun
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:06:34 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

kdlin@laplace.ee.ucla.edu (K. David Lin) writes:


#Thanks all who gave me advices for my 2nd gun. My gun range/store is ordering
#200 custom 1911A1's from Springfield Armory. I'll get one when they come
#in. The features include:
#	Stainless steel frame and slide
#	Hogue rubber hold grip
#	High profile 3-dot sight
#	full-length guide rod
#	beveled mag. well
#	extended thumb safety
#	extended bevertail safety
#	commander hammer

Do they make stainless?    I thought it was just chrome.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotguns vs Handguns (was: Gun Recommendations Sought)
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:31:11 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <52861@mimsy.umd.edu>, by mtxinu!ataraxy.sybase.com!thorick@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Thorick Chow):
# 
# In article <52611@mimsy.umd.edu> lriggins@galaxy.afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins) writes:
# #In article <52601@mimsy.umd.edu> bp816@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stuart Krivis) writes:
# #|One thing no one has mentioned...  Don't use handloads for self-
# #|defense. They will make you out to be a monster in court if you
# #|ever actually have to shoot someone.
# #
# #Why?  I doubt anyone is going to distinguish my handloads of Remington JHP
# #in Remington cases from the factory ammo.
# #
# 
# I was in a gun store once when a detective type was getting 'expert'
# advice as to whether some 44 spl  cases picked up at the scene
# of a crime were indeed handloads or factory...
# 
# the decision was 'handloads'..  the giveaways ?
# 
# in this case..  the primers were set a bit erratically in the cases
# in a way that no fired factory ammo looks like.  Another consideration
# would have been light scratch marks showing evidence of re-sizing,
# but apparently, this person used new cases.
# 
# speculation, even if you did use Remington Bullets and Remington cases
# (and Remington Primers !)...  if someone were really serious about
# trying to prove something, wouldn't the burnt powder residue 
# be a giveaway ?  Might they not match up residues from canister
# grade powders (as opposed to the factory powders which may vary
# more from lot to lot as I understand it) ?
#

Well, Federal uses a gold colored primer in their pistol ammo
and they don't sell those primers as components.  I don't know
about other current brands. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas More)
From: voder!nsc!lancaster.nsc.com!alan@cs.UMD.EDU (The Hepburn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet & gasoline truck
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:50:48 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor Corporation

In article <53103@mimsy.umd.edu>, jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
|> In article <53057@mimsy.umd.edu> george@cs.purdue.edu (Michael J. George) writes:
|>
|> 
|> #As far as I know, it is air temp that ignites diesel (>800F), not the pressure
|> #directly.  Though it *is* the pressure that will raise the cylinder air temp
|> #that high.  This is from memory, so I may be wrong...
|> 
|> That you may be right about since you need something equivalent to a
|> spark plug to start a diesel engine up.  But diesel itself is no where
|> near as volatile as gasoline.
|> --
|> 

Close, but we're not playing with horseshoes or hand grenades here.  A diesel engine
is started by cranking it.  As the air is compressed in the cylinder, it heats up.
Eventually the temperature in the cylinder reaches a temperature that will ignite the
diesel fuel.  Some engines employ a glow plug (definitely not a spark plug) to aid
in heating up the combustion chamber, but that is an option, not a necessity.


-- 
Alan Hepburn           "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain
National Semiconductor       a little temporary safety deserve neither
Santa Clara, Ca              liberty nor safety."
alan@berlioz.nsc.com                              Benjamin Franklin
From: justice@panix.com (Michael Justice)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX - Public Access Unix Systems of NY

In article <52715@mimsy.umd.edu> the moderator writes:
#[MODERATOR:  In all this discussion about polar bear, we have 
#overlooked other basic safety practices, e.g., always go into
#the wild equipped with a colleague who runs slower than you do.]

Finally:  A way in which the .22LR is good for self-defense!
You can just shoot your companion in the leg, and. . . . :-)

			-- Michael.
--
Michael A. Justice, currently at: | NRA Life | This year, remember:
justice@panix.com   (preferred)   | NRA-ILA  | Throw the Bums Out!
mikej@kong.ibax.com (OUT OF ORDER)| T.H.R.O. | Re-elect Nobody!
From: glaird@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Gordon Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Moving firearms into CA
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:57:43 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


Ed Devinney asks:

# I've followed the recent postings about moving guns into California,
# but I still can't determine a few things: 1) does one have to notify
# the State when moving in with guns,

     Not unless its one of the select few weapons on the famous Assault
Rifle list.  The Colt manufactured specifically identified model AR-15 is
on the list.
     Other than the Uzi manufacture, almost all generic handguns & long guns
are not listed on "The List".  I.E. S&W, Ruger (including Mini-14), Colt
(Non AR-15), Remington, Winchester.

#  b) is the Colt Sporter considered
# to be an AR15 under the ban,

          No, it is not a Colt AR-15, because it doesn't say 'Colt AR-15' on
the serial numbered part of the weapon.

#  and iii) if any 3rd-party lower receivers
# are allowed for the AR15 family.

       No for the same reason as question (b) above.  The receiver might
have the label "Eagle Arms AR-15" stamped on it.  The list specifically
bans 'Colt AR-15's.
From: infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: PEN GUN
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:31:03 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <53082@mimsy.umd.edu> tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
#Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), Title II, chapter 53,
#section 5845 (definitions), paragraph (e):
#
#  "(e) Any Other Weapon - The term "any other weapon" means any weapon
#  capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be
#  discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver
#  having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a
#  fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrel
#  12 inches or more less than 18 inches in length, from which only a
#  single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading,
   etc.....

A while ago there was discussion about the .410/45LC Contender
and why it was legal to sell as a pistol.  The answer ( how can
someone sell a shotgun pistol ) seemed to be that it is
because the barrel is rifled.

This section seems to cover putting a smooth bore barrel on the 
Contender to fire shot shells.  Is this correct ?  Aside from the
$5 tax stamp what else does one have to subject themselves to in
order to acquire an "Any Other Weapon" ?

How large ( i.e. what gauge ) a barrel could be made for the Contender
pistol frame ?


           Greg Mitchell         gregm@informix.com
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Revolver Hammer Shrouds....
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:55:48 GMT

#           For Andrew and others who care, I was half joking about the
#        cocked and locked worries. But as far as my reservations about
#        cocked and locked carry I was refering to the practice on the
#        1911 Colt style pistol. In this case the safeties apply only to
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#        the trigger. They do nothing for the possibility of the sear
         ^^^^^^^^^^^

The thumb safety on the 1911 performs two functions :

   (a)  Blocks the sear from movement (this may also be considered to
        "apply to the trigger", on the shinbone-connected-to-thighbone
        principle)

   (b)  Blocks the hammer from forward movement.

It does *not* :

   Block the firing pin from moving forward (series 80 Colts have a firing
   pin safety for this, as do complete guns from Para Ordnance).

The grip safety works direclty on the trigger, and only on the trigger (ie,
it does not impair sear or hammer movement).

#        disengaging apart from the action of the trigger. This is a far
#        cry from a block of steel between the hammer and firing pin.
#        But at the bottom line, Rule 1 says all weapons are always loaded
#        and should be treated as such. If you cannot, don't touch em. If

Agreed, however mechanical safeties provide an extra ring of security.  It
should be considered unsafe to drop any carry gun, however, I still prefer
to carry a handgun which has sufficient safety systems that the chances of
a discharge if the gun is dropped are as close to zero as possible.

#        you are around those that can't don't allow them to touch em.
#        Simple.


Rob Boudrie
rboudrie@chpc.org
From: martin@centaur.saic.com (Martin Hobson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .22 LR Conversion Kits for AR-15
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:29:26 GMT
Organization: SAIC, McLean VA


I have a fairly old AR-15 (SP1) that I'd like to convert to fire .22 LR
rounds. The reason for this is that the indoor ranges I have access to
are not able to handle the .223 rounds without damage. So... I was told
that there exist fairly inexpensive .22 conversion kits for the
AR-15/M-16 family.

If any of you out there have installed or used such a kit, I'd be
grateful for your feedback. Do the things work? Do they work well? How
do they cycle the action (recoil or gas)? and any other impressions you
may have.

I know .22 out of an AR-15 is kind of silly, but my only other
alternative is to drive 40 miles out into the countryside.

Thanks!

Martin Hobson  - Systems Engineer, Special Projects Group, SAIC McLean
EMail:          martin@centaur.saic.com   martin@monster.saic.com
USnail:         SAIC MS 1-8-1, 1710 Goodridge Dr, McLean, VA, 22102
Voice:          (703)821-4358           FAX:    (703)821-3884
From: sybok@m4-035-13.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Advice on Polar Bear protection requested (no kidding!!!)
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:35 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

#For heavy, dangerous animals you need heavy bullets that are
#propelled at a high enough speed to penetrate the animal.
#eg 180 deer loads need not apply!  Typical bullets for the
#purpose are 300 gr or more, hard cast/solid bullets, with
#sufficient diameter to create a wound channel that stops
#despite lack of expansion.  That's what works on the big ones.
#
#BDW

You could always hit the bear with a blast of 5% Capstun and see how well
it can chase humans it can't see, or engulf it in flames with a shotgun
shell of DRAGON'S BREATH(tm).
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Scoring Targets
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:26 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:

#In article <52677@mimsy.umd.edu> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
## ...
##Just for curiousity, is there some reason why groups with larger
##numbers of shots in them are usually bigger?  Is it just that the
##shooter gets tired? 

#  Sampling (statistical) theory says that this will happen even if
#the shooter doesn't get tired.  With the same probability distribution
#of shots (whatever it is, although the bivariate normal is often
#assumed) the chance of getting a "far away" shot is higher when you
#look at (sample) more shots.

True, but with some guns there is another factor  -  heat.  The average
hunting rifle is not designed for extended firing, and as the barrel
heats up and the interaction between barrel and stock changes I'd 
expect the mean point of impact to shift.  This should not be a large
effect, but would be enough to enlarge a group.  However, for a hunting
gun anything over a 3-shot group should be irrelevant.  If a rifle can
repeatedly produce a good 3-shot group from cold I'd not be too
worried.

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Clip prices?
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:04:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Puuhhhleeeeeeeeeeze do not call magazines 'clips'!  Just a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, magazines do vary quite a bit in construction and quality.  A good
magazine will have a widened face making loading of the magazine easier, as
well as having a U-shaped backside (where the top round butts against).  
Magazines that have sharp, straight cuts here tend to crack from stress.  Plus,
many magazines have extended bases with pads, subjecting them to less shock
when they are ejected and allowed to hit the ground (as in IPSC competition).
Even springs can vary in their tension (never leave magazines fully loaded for
long periods of time, as this will cause the spring to lose tension).  Lastly,
a poorly constructed magazine may fail to engage the slide stop consistently,
thereby letting the slide drop on an empty chamber...

-- 
-Paul Yoshimune [pauly@netcom.com]
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm vs 40S&W - which to choose?
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:42:13 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


davidg@interop.com (David Gimpelevich) writes:

#In article <53072@mimsy.umd.edu> barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham) writes:
##[(.40D&W is) much better than a 9...]

#I'd like to see your data.  Ross Seyfried (Guns & Ammo - sorry, I don't have theissue number) states that they are baout identical, and there is very little
#actual shooting statistics to suggest otherwise.  He would rather have the extrarounds with a 9...

Well, you can be a Hatcher fan, or a Cooper fan, or a Marshell fan, or a
believer in kinetic energy, or a gelatin fanatic; for some people it all comes
down to justifying a personal belief.

In my mind there have been too many cases when the 9 didn't do the job.  The
FBI, both in actual experience and in their testing, would seem to agree.  The
.40 S&W is the FBI 10mm load (10mm Lite) and I believe that any way you care
to look at it you will get superior results than the current crop of 9s.

If you want to / need to carry a 9, that's fine; but if I were limited to a 9
I would focus my practise on head shots.

Barry.

Barry Needham            barry@uts.amdahl.com            USA (408) 992-2527
-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: sybok@m4-035-2.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 21
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:12:33 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

#I agree with every word here.  I was prejudiced against .45 after shooting
#Springfield which handled like a piece of junk, unbalanced and throwing
#bullets at whichever direction. 

The Springfield Armory 1911 is the greatest autoloading pistol ever created,
and the 45ACP cartridge is the greatest load.  Not only is the stock SA1911 the
base gun for professional shooters across the country, it also has the
widest availability of parts and accessories.  The Glock looks like a toy gun
made from cheap plastic, while the 1911's handsome appearance is legendary.
From: M20069@MBVM.mitre.org (Joseph H. Downing)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Skeet/Trap Guns...Help!
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:03:39 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730

Are there any Skeet/Trap shooters out there?  If so, could you please explain
the difference between the weapons used for each?
 
Thanks in Advance,
Joe Downing
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LUBES (PRELUBE?)
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:04:11 GMT


Someone writes:
 >Lastly, for a brand-new gun, that's never been fired, should it
 >be taken down (field-stripped) and coated with lubricant before
 >it's first fired, or does the factory make sure that it's adequately
 >primed for the first shooting session?

I don't know about take down to lube it, but...

Always take it down.  Never trust the factory.  If a barrel is ocluded
with cosmoline all's they can be is real sorry if something goes wrong
and you lose a hand or eye.

There may be less series consequences, too.  I bought a brand new Ruger MK
II and there was so much "gunk" on the slide release that the bolt would
close after the last round, and the hammer thingy would not flop to the
right position when assembling.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post