Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:46:07 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 283

In this issue:
                       Homosexuality & the Bible
                    Beauty and the Beast as -others-
                      Gay Pride Parades/Festivals
               Bisexual rights and a matter of vernacular
                    GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 279
                                 paglia
                              New Orleans
                Biblical condemnations of homosexuality
                       Transformation ministries
                             one's own room
                         support from straights
                            Value of Outing
                  Chicago United Way May Cut BSA Funds
                           Grad School Money?

Please send messages for the entire list to gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU,
requests to be added or deleted to gaynet-request@ATHENA.MIT.EDU, and
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Postings to GayNet are public communications.  If you must keep your
privacy, send your messages to gaynet-anonymous@ATHENA.MIT.EDU.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:16 EST
From: VERBEEK%HOPE.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Homosexuality & the Bible

Scott: > Does any one have the references that talk about it and refute the
       > fact that being gay is non-biblical?

There are a number of good books challenging the traditional interpretation
of the Christian scripture.  These come to mind:

John Boswell's _Christianity, Homosexuality, and Social Tolerance_ is probably
     the most scholarly (the footnotes sometimes outweigh the text).
Scanzoni and Mollenkott's _Is the Homosexual My Neighbor?_ is a good one for
     conservative mainline protestants.
Bishop Spong's _Living in Sin_ is one I haven't read, but is widely quoted.
     (He's an Episcopal.)
Sylvia Pennington's _Good News for Modern Gays_ isn't great from a scholarly
     standpoint, but emphasises the personal evangelical perspective.
Brian McNaught's video `On Being Gay' addresses the religious issues rather
     well in the second half of the program.

If you'd like something more brief, I had a <1000-word article on the subject
published in `The Church Herald' (a Reformed Church in America magazine) a
couple years ago, which I could post here or e-mail to you.  I guess it was
pretty good, because one person wrote a letter to the editor saying,
`There's no telling how much damage VerBeek has done with this article.'
<grin>

     Cheers, Todd VerBeek

------------------------------

From: Mark D Winchester <mwinches@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Beauty and the Beast as -others-
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 16:17:32 EDT

Has anyone else considered a gay reading of -Beauty and the Beast-?

Think of it...Belle as fascinating other, bookish, untypical and spurned for
her otherness...the Beast as other other (or other than other, or definitely
significantly other)...the whole theme of cultural outlaws/sexual bandits/gosh
knows what else....

I think that -B&B- should be included on the list of Q+ films.

And please don't forget -I've Heard the Mermaids Singing- in a list of Q+
films.  Where would Canadian filmmaking be without that wonderful excursion?

Best,

Mark D. Winchester
Department of Theatre
The Ohio State University
mwinches@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Subject: Gay Pride Parades/Festivals
From: BJKPMA%FARMNTON.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (Brian)
Date:    Tue, 14 Apr 92 16:55:13 EDT

Hi folks!  As the summer approaches, I know that gay pride
celebrations are going to be coming out of the woodwork...but I
dont know which wood on what days...
I know that there is a festival in Norfolk, VA  the weekend of June 13,
and there is one in Bangor, Maine on June 20th.

Can anyone tell me when celebrations are planned for:
Boston
NYC
Philadelphia
Albany
D.C.
ETC.....?
Thanks!  (I want to start making my travel arrangements NOW!)

brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:01:35 -0400
From: will@rmy.emory.edu (Will Parsons)
Subject: Bisexual rights and a matter of vernacular

Tim Pierce states that if a group is fighting for Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual
rights why not state each group? What I would like to know is, since when did
"Gay" not include everyone with same sex partners? Why does it know seem to
apply strictly to men? Am I being insensitive?
	I just don't understand why we need to set up differences through
labeling when it would be to everyone's advantage to be unified. I understand
that there are important differences between Gay males, Gay females, and
bisexual women and men, however in the context of legal rights these terms
are meaningless. It would seem to make as much sense to say that NGLTF is
fighting for white Gay males rights, Black Gay males rights, Asian Lesbian
rights, Native American Bisexual rights etc. In this case race has as little
importance as whether or not you are Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual.
Nowthat I'm off that soapbox let me jump onto another one. I'm tired of
people slamming gay men for being uncaring, shallow and self-centered.
Everyone, at one time in their lives, has been uncaring, shallow and
self-centered. It has nothing to do with your sex, orientation, or other
characterisitc except for the fact that you are human and humans make
mistakes. There are plenty of gay men that are very giving and caring. There
are plenty that at times aren't. What is important is to stop hating
ourselves and others and to work personally on improving ourselves rather
than blaming everyone else for the "common attitude of shallowness" in the
community. Soapbox OFF. :-)
	Hopefully I have made some people think a little and maybe even
pissed some people off, we shall see. If anyone would like to discuss
this further with me please E-Mail me.
Later,
	Will Parsons.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Will Parsons                 |     " Anyone who says the show is
E-mail: will@rmy.emory.edu   |      'neat' has got to go"
                             |                 Madonna 1991
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:06:09 -0400
From: Sharon Elizabeth Silverman <ses3n@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 279

I SAID please remove me from the mailing list. Thanks!
                                                Sharon

------------------------------

From: Thanalakshmi.Subramaniam@Dartmouth.EDU
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:07:20 EDT
Subject: paglia

i dont have the article on hand,  but the Chronicle for Higher education
covered her recent visit to harvard where she skewered all the feminist profs
there, and as many feminist literati as u cld mention. anyone who knows me (
well some of them) knows that i think paglia is a load of crock, so i'll just
say this : if she had  written a bk before Personae that became part of
womyns studies courses everywhere, if she was respected in feminist circles,
she wouldnt be saying what she does. she is an undistinctive scholar who
discovered that the easiest way in these repressive times to get attention is
to spout the bullshit that conservatives have always thought and wanted to
say. she annoys the hell out of me .
so there!
shimi

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 14 Apr 92 14:30 PDT
From: "Derrick C. Benn"                    <IZZYFT4@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: New Orleans

Hi,
  Next week I will be in New Orleans for a conference from Tuesday to Friday.
Can someone tell me how the l/b/g scene is there?  Furthermore, what are the
best gay bars in New Orleans?

  To Mr. Mike Miller:  How is GLND/SMC?  Anything exciting happened this year?
    Do you need any help from me in any way?

                                Derrick C. Benn

------------------------------

From: chuckmc@kailand.kai.com (Chuck McCaffrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:46:46 CDT
Organization: Kuck and Associates, 1906 Fox Drive, Champaign IL USA 61820-7334,
 voice 217-356-2288, fax 217-356-5199
Subject: Biblical condemnations of homosexuality

       Someone asked about references to Biblical condemnations of
       homosexuality.  I am not a Biblical scholar; I am a scholar
       of literature who has read the Bible several times, King
       James Version, Revised Standard Version, and New
       International Version.  So, I'm not an expert, just a
       reasonably knowledgeable person who knows how to read
       literary texts and who speaks for himself.  With that
       caveat, I offer the following:

       The Bible in the Old Testament contains several texts that
       appear to be condemnations of homosexuality, but these
       condemnations are couched in language that makes them open
       to several interpretations.  Arguing about those
       interpretations, about how individual words have been
       translated from ancient Hebrew, about what those root words
       meant in ancient Hebrew--all this seems a waste of time to
       me.  People will find what they want to find in such
       Biblical texts because the Bible is not definitive and
       precise, nor is there even agreement about what texts
       comprise the Bible and about those niggling details of
       translation and meaning.

       Therefore, it seems to me a pointless exercise to argue
       whether the Bible contains condemnations of homosexuality
       and what these condemnations mean.  As a Christian, by far
       the more important and interesting thing for me is that none
       of these so-called condemnations comes from Christ.  In
       Christ's words, rather, we find admonitions to love, to
       forgive, to help other people when they need it, and to live
       a just and honest life.  I believe that a Christian is
       someone who follows these guidelines.  On that basis, I
       cannot understand how homosexuality is incompatible with
       what Christ said, and I cannot understand how homosexuality
       is incompatible with being a Christian.  It certainly isn't
       for me.

       It is true that homosexuality is condemned in the Mosaic
       laws.  I intend no offense to people who claim to believe in
       and follow the Mosaic laws, but frankly, these laws are
       mostly ludicrous, and there is no evidence that they come
       from God rather than being merely the conventional and
       convenient wisdom of Moses or other tribal leaders.  Few
       reasonable people would accept most of these laws today.

       So often I hear bits and pieces of that law quoted and
       propounded as "the word of God."  Indeed.  Well, if they are
       the word of God, then they must be so in toto.  There are so
       many silly things in Mosaic law that I find it hard to
       believe that God had anything to do with them.  Test this
       for yourself:  Read the entire Book of Leviticus.  Would God
       have us strangle birds and drip their blood on an altar
       while performing a ritual dance in atonement for sins?  Does
       God truly care how we wear our hair?  Does God truly want to
       keep women subservient to men?  Does God truly want us to
       stone adulterers (among other transgressors), this same God
       who commanded us not to kill each other?  That's what the
       Mosaic laws claim God said.  Well, I am not interested in
       such a God, nor do I believe in such a God.  There is much
       flawed thinking in the Old Testament rules for behavior, and
       there is no evidence to suggest that the condemnation of
       homosexuality is privileged above all that nonesense, that
       the thinking about homosexuality is true while so much of
       the rest is so obviously false.  I reject the Old Testament
       condemnations of homosexuality with all the other nonesense
       I find there.

       It is true that there are also condemnations of
       homosexuality in the New Testament, but these condemnations
       come mainly from Paul; none comes from Christ.  I am not a
       follower of Paul, a good man, but a flawed man with many
       strange, irresponsible, and illogical beliefs; I am a
       follower of Christ.  I reject Paul's nonesense on the same
       basis that I reject the nonesense in the Old Testament.

       It is both logical and consistent with the central tenets of
       Christian thought to believe that the Christian God, the God
       of Love, would not condemn love between two people, no
       matter who those people are, no matter what gender or
       sexuality those people have.  Rather, God rejoices in love.
       To love is to worship God.  It is illogical and inconsistent
       to think otherwise.

       I understand that there are some folks who call themselves
       Christian who disagree with me.  I don't claim to speak for
       everyone, just for me, and I speak after having observed the
       world at work, and after having examined the Bible and my
       soul with my God-given abilities to reason and to love.

Your mileage may vary.

Peace and love to all,
Chuck


-
            Chuck McCaffrey chuckmc@kai.com uunet!kailand!chuckmc
          Cast off your garments of fear and replace them with love

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:22 EST
From: HARKINS%BUTLERU.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Transformation ministries
X-Organization: Butler University

Yikes!  I just read Andrew Werling's posting of the junk he got in
the mail from the ex-gay ministry.  Hoo boy.  Well, here's what I'M
going to send them, when I get the time:

        (from Chris Glaser's _Come Home: ..._ )

   To believe that you are unlovable by God or neighbor is yet another form
of idolatry. It asserts that one's self may achieve a state beyond God's
reach, beyond God's love. That is not possible in a faith which asserts
that God became human, suffered and died unjustly, and descended into the
realm of the dead, all that no one may be lost.

   If idolatry may be judged by degree, then even more idolatrous are
those who assert that _another_ person may achieve a state beyond God's
reach. And yet that is the position of those who condemn us for being
homosexual. The greater idolatry of this position is that heterosexuality
supersedes God when heterosexuality is viewed as determining God's
responses. Only God can determine God's responses.

   At the beginning of this chapter, I wrote that sin is what causes us to
stumble on our way home to God's embrace. It may be our own sin, it may be
the church's sin, it may be society's sin. Homophobia, an irrational fear
and loathing of homosexuality and of homosexual persons, makes lesbians
and gays stumble on our way home to God's embrace. As such it is sin. It
is a sin common to individuals and to every institution within society,
including the church. It leads to self-destructive or other-destructive
behavior, because it keeps its victim from seeing the image of God in the
homosexual person and the Spirit of God in the homosexual experience. It
is shared by gays and nongays. Together we must confess it, and allow faith
in Jesus Christ to overcome fear of homosexuality. God's yes in Christ
must overcome the no of homophobia, because, as Paul also writes, "nothing
can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Sovereign"
(Rom. 8:39).

- -end of excerpt

Ordinarily I dislike Bible quotes, but this is a good'un. I like this
passage because it says that homophobia and true Christianity are
fundamentally incompatible. I know THEY won't buy it, but it makes me
feel better to say it...

James -- HARKINS@BUTLERU.BITNET

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:26:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gene C. Webb" <gw1j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: one's own room

Funny....when I was an undergrad at Marquette U.(Catholic, Jesuit), I
was told there were no homosexuals there either!

Gene (the only gay man to attend Marquette U. ever!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Medlin <jmedlin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: support from straights

A fine editorial column in the 4/14/92 Seattle Post-Intelligencer by Asta
Bowen, "a non-fiction writer and essayist who lives in northwestern
Montana".  I had a couple of quibbles (some bashers act out of religious
principle, she implies; "young whites" are the most prominent bashers (I
think young blacks are just as enthusiastic), but overall, an excellent
piece.  "For Anita Hill, the outrage echoed from sea to shining sea; what
do we feel for Julio Rivera, who was bludgeoned with a claw hammer and
stabbed to death simply because he loved men?...What we hear...is an
'appalling silence among otherwise decent people'."  "Non-gays can help by
coming out too--out of our closets of silence....Perhaps gays can win
freedom without the help of fairminded straights--but they shouldn't have to."

------------------------------

Newsgroups: rpi.mail.gaynet
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Value of Outing
Distribution: local
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:33:59 GMT
Apparently-To: rpi-mail-gaynet

VERBEEK%HOPE.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu writes:

>Ron: > Oh, gosh, do we have to start another discussion on why some people
>     > think outing is necessary [like me] and some people think it is vile?

>Only if you really don't understand yet why some people think it's a worthless
>tactic. <grin>

Touche' flambe' ole'! :-) :-) [My God I feel like Almodovar!]

>Do we *want* outed celebrities held up as `role models', or as examples of
>how great gay men and lesbians are?  Are we really that desperate?

Yes, we are that desperate. Queers are being killed in the streets by physical
weapons and by a deadly virus. The main reason for outing celebrities is to
show the STRAIGHT community ``See, why are you oppressing us? We are just like
you except for our sexual orientation. Some of YOUR models of perfection are
actually faggots and dykes and bi.''

>A self-hating closet-case or self-centered arse who has to be dragged out
>of the closet is exactly the kind of person I'd just as soon *leave* in the
>closet.  Why not celebrate people we can be *proud* of, instead?

Well, obviously, we try to do that also.  Outing is about educating the masses
about the spectrum of Queers. From jodie foster to Senator Mark Hatfield to
Carl Lewis to Whitney Houston to Roy Cohn. [oops! :-)]

>Cheers, Todd VerBeek

-
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
PrinceMADONNAMariahCareySineadO'ConnorGeorgeMichaelKateBushEnyaCocteauTwins
MTVCNNFOXNBCCBSVH1RobertBarnardIsaacAsimovGoreVidalGlennCloseMerylStreep

------------------------------

Newsgroups: rpi.mail.gaynet
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Chicago United Way May Cut BSA Funds
Distribution: local
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:40:30 GMT
Apparently-To: rpi-mail-gaynet

mike.w.miller.40@nd.edu writes:

>Usually when I pick up a gay newspaper and scan the "news" stories, I think
>DUH and then realize that the whole world doesn't have an internet link --
>yet.  Rarely do I find something that I haven't read on Queer Nation or
>here on RonNet -- whoops, I mean GayNet... ;-)  But this one jumped out at
>me...
What! I missed something... :-)

>Paraphrased from the Windy City Times:

>The Chicago United Way has announced that it may suspend all funding to the
>Boy Scouts of America, Chicago area.  Last Spring, the BSA was notified
>that it is in violation of the local UW's non-discrimination policy, which
>also applies to all client agencies.  In February, BSA was formally
>notified that they are in violation of UW policy.  The UW committee will
>decide by 30 June whether to offer funding to the BSA in the next fiscal
>year.

>Could someone in Chicago please post the Chicago United Way's phone and fax
>numbers so that people may urge them to not abandon their policy and
>ideals?

Working on it.... Try sending to <elle@midway.uchicago.edu>. She should know.
[post the fax number when you get it]
--
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
PrinceMADONNAMariahCareySineadO'ConnorGeorgeMichaelKateBushEnyaCocteauTwins
MTVCNNFOXNBCCBSVH1RobertBarnardIsaacAsimovGoreVidalGlennCloseMerylStreep

------------------------------

Newsgroups: rpi.mail.gaynet
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Grad School Money?
Distribution: local
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:44:50 GMT
Apparently-To: rpi-mail-gaynet

Ron.DeVrou@p819.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Ron DeVrou) writes:


>Also, messages for NGLTF can be sent to me.  We are working on creating a
>message base on a national gay BBS system with a complete selection of NGLTF
>information and will begin to post (on a limited basis) NGLTF Press Releases
>here.
Cool! It is so much easier than having get them in the mail, type them in and
THEN post them... :-)

>We look forward to hearing from you and hope to be able to use this medium to
>communicate to grassroots organizers in a more efficient manner.  Any
>suggestions would also be appreciated.

How about the NGLTF creating a mailing list or account that mail can be directly
 sent to for requests? I think you might become swamped once it is known on the
net you are a direct link to the NGLTF.

-
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
PrinceMADONNAMariahCareySineadO'ConnorGeorgeMichaelKateBushEnyaCocteauTwins
MTVCNNFOXNBCCBSVH1RobertBarnardIsaacAsimovGoreVidalGlennCloseMerylStreep

------------------------------

End of GayNet Digest
********************
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