From: maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark "Beren" Jamison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Locarno = Kirk (Spoilers "First Duty"))
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:25:48 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

>maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark "Beren" Jamison) writes:
>>tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>>kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:

>>>>ccmk@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
>>>> > The emphasis is on the refusal to give in no matter the odds.

>>>>tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>>> > That's not an "I will not fail".  That's an "I will not give up"; and I 
>>>> > find that an admirable quality most of the time.  The "I will not fail"
>>>> > is adolescent arrogance at its worst.

>>>>OK, assuming for a moment that you're right: give us an example
>>>>of Kirk taking on something that's way over his head, ignoring
>>>>all warnings, and just foolishly bulling ahead.

>>>Refusing to do a thing about Gary Mitchell until it was damn near too late
>>>in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?  Letting Khan get in close enough to 
>>>cripple the Enterprise in ST2?

>>Where do these signify the "I will not fail" mentality?? 

>You mean saying "there can't be anything wrong with the Reliant because I'm
>James Kirk and invulnerable"?

Come again?? His moves with the reliant may belie a sense of trust in all
Federation people, not an "I can't lose" mentality.. Granted it was stupid,
less arrogant men have done the same sort of thing though..


>>As far as Kahn was concerned?? Where is he ignoring all warnings??

>Ohhh, I don't know...completely ignoring standard (and *sensible*) regulations
>involving ships that are coming towards you and silent running, not doing any-
>thing to safeguard the ship until the Reliant's shields were up *and* weapons
>were locked, and thus pummeling the ship.  You know, the error that caused 
>the damage that in the end, drove Spock to sacrifice himself.  That error.

Well, I'll argue with you on that one.. See above.. Now if you had pointed
out his goading Kahn into a fight at the end, well that's another story,
and that was what caused Spock's sacrifice..


>>This is something I really don't understand in most Kirk Bashers (tm),

>I'm afraid I don't see any around.  You'll have to deal with those actually
>posting.  I don't bash Kirk lightly, nor on a regular basis.  (Shatner, 
>perhaps.  :-) )  I will not, however, accept the picture given of "he had no 
>flaws and was a perfect man in every way", nor will I refuse to acknowledge
>parallels that I see.  If you and others intend to label me a rabid Kirk-
>basher for it, feel free.

Sorry, I was moving on a tangent, I tend to do that too often. I was speaking
more i terms of othe posters.. Besdies don't you like labels?? :-)


>>they refuse to take as cannon TOS, which in several episodes describe Kirk
>>as a Stick in the mud during his academy days.. If anything, based on 
>>what we have learned from the shows, and ignoring neat plot devices thrown
>>into a Movie, Locarno = Picard.. 

>"Neat plot devices" thrown into the greatest TOS-characters product ever
>filmed, IMO.   You can discount ST2 if you like; I shan't.

Sorry, perhaps my meaning was not clear.. I was not saying I ignore ST2 I
was just taking what someone else had argued from..


>And as for the Locarno=Picard analogy [thought up by those getting *extremely*
>defensive about the L/K connection, I might add], I've already pointed out
>elsewhere that there's no evidence for either Locarno being a hell-raiser or
>for Picard being outright *dishonest*.  We know Picard was troublesome and
>perhaps disruptive; all appearances from TFD indicate that Locarno was viewed
>very favorably by the Academy at large, faculty and students alike.  And
>Picard's never been said to lie or cheat at the Academy in any form; Locarno
>and Kirk have.

Both Picard and Locarno have pulled "stunts".. Besides where did Kirk Lie??


>Locarno/Kirk is not a perfect analogy; I've long since clarified my position on
>that.  Locarno/Picard is a meaningless one, particularly since the overt lines
>drawn in the show itself were for Wes/Picard/Boothby.  I think that when poor
>Scott Gorcey started this thread, he didn't realize quite what a bundle of 
>raw nerves he was going to set off.  

Well it was the equality symbol that was bothering me, that and the 
Kirk Bashers(tm) trying to say that cheating on a test you're taking
for the third time to prove a point, and  trying a "Stunt" that could,and did
, get people killed, is equivalent.. 


>>Even if we accept STII as cannon we have 
>>one instance of Kirk doing something in his academy days that only remotely
>>is similar to Locarno, 

>The remoteness is under some discussion, it seems.  You can dismiss it if
>you like; I've already granted that Locarno is far more dishonest and venal
>than Kirk's ever been shown to be.  The bare facts of Kirk cheating on the 
>KM test do not appear to be a problem, though; it's the discussion of what
>it means that's caused the uproar.

Absolutely..

>>Picard however has a very vague, but distinctively
>>rawdy and bawdy description of his days at the Academy.. 

>Neither of which appear to apply to Locarno.  He *looked* like a model 
>student until this happened, eh?

point taken.. 

And Now for something completely similar but different too..

From the vague stuff we learned from Boothby about Picard, doesn't that 
speech he gave wesley seem a bit hypocritical?? It actually made me think that
Picard was acting like the stereotyped father who has such great
expectations of his son that the Father completely forgets what kind of
stuff he did as a child..

>Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
>BITNET:  tlynch@citjuliet
>INTERNET:  tlynch@juliet.caltech.edu
>UUCP:  ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.caltech.edu@hamlet.caltech.edu
>"Science is the only self-correcting human institution, but it also is a 
>process that progresses only by showing itself to be wrong."
>			--Allan Sandage
--
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                       Still looking for Luthien
maj1@ra.msstate.edu                                  maj1@beren.b17a.ingr.com
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