From: hal@kaos.declab.usu.edu (000200 Lynch)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Bayliner Challenge: SUMMARY
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:33:23 GMT
Reply-To: hal@kaos.declab.usu.edu (000200 Lynch)
Organization: Utah State University

Well since the responses to the Bayliner challenge have trailed off it is
time to summarize.  I have read the responses over several times and have
decided that the best way to present them is in their authors own words.
While I have removed a great deal of text from the responses I have been
careful to maintain the sense and feel of each authors post.  If I have
hacked something important out of a response I apologize.  I debated
whether or not to include the authors names with their posts.  I decided
to include them because I believe a 'signed' opinion carries more
weight.

Before getting to the posts themselves please allow me to editorialize
a moment.  First I was surprised that I received so few responses, 12
including mine.  Perhaps there aren't that many Bayliner owners on the
net.  Perhaps few had concrete examples or first hand experience.
Apathy is more likely.  Whatever the reasons the deluge didn't come.
The sense of the responses seemed to be this:
	Bayliner is the Chevy of the boat world.  If you buy one
		expecting it to be a cadillac you will be disappointed.
	With a couple of exceptions the responders said you get more
		boat for the money than with any other brand.
	While virtually all had problems, only a few reported serious
		troubles.
	A good portion of the problems reported were quality control
		or age related, not design problems.
	There was only one report of a dealer failing to stand behind
		his product.
	The mechanic said he had never met a Bayliner owner who had had
		his boat for over 2 years that was still satisfied with
		it.  We don't stay satisfied with our cars, toasters,
		stereos, or houses.  Why should boats be any different?
A feeble attempt to explain the Bayliner Phenomenom:
	A Bayliner by it's nature invites dis-satisfaction!  Not 
	because it is a crummy boat, but because of the very
	reason you bought it in the first place.  It's an entry
	level boat.  Owning an entry level boat means there is
	always something 'better' floating next to you.  After
	a year or two you lose sight of this simple fact; when
	you bought your Bayliner you spent every cent you could
	afford, and a great deal of effort to get the most boat
	for the buck.  Now all you can see is the guy driving
	the Whizbang 24 with the smug smile on his face.  he
	is obviously more: successful, admired, loved, and virile
	than you.  And he is having more fun.  Human nature reigns
	supreme.  We begin to hate the very vehicle that got us on
	the water in the first place.  The Bayliner folks understand
	this very well.  We now have Arriva and Maxim to move up to.
End of sermonette.  Now read the good stuff below.

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From hal@cache.declab.usu.edu

1987 Bayliner Capri 1950 with 5.0l V8 and OMC outdrive, bought used in 1992.

I have put 40+ hours on the boat this summer.

Problems:
	Slow leak in the drive trim system
	Broken fitting on canvas top
	Missing snaps on cushions
	Loose motor mount
	Loose screws(many more tight than loose)
	Had to replace engine vent blower
	Replaced stripped bow-light screws(wood screws into plywood) with
		machine screws and lock nuts
	Canvas top leaks
	Shift control hard to get into neutral.
Things I learned to hate:
	The trim at the top of the windshield is right at eye level
	Why did they put seams in the top right over the seats
	I have to remove 3 cushions to get into the anchor locker
	The ride is noisy in rough water
	I need a trim gauge
	The trailer doesn't have brakes.

Things I have learned to love:
	Full canvas I have slept on the boat
	The gauges look super zoomy but they are legible under all
		conditions
	Absolutely reliable it always works
	Pulls a skier or two with ease
	Nothing major has broken, nothing has fallen off
	I can tow it with my jeep cherokee
	Gets on plane quickly
	stable and controllable.
The things that have broken are due to either age or ham-fistedness.
When I bought it no other boat had the same features for anywhere near
the same price.
	
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From: davidm@meaddata.com (David Miller)

I looked for a boat for 2 years before breaking down the wife enough to buy.
During that time, I looked at a few Bayliners (and SeaRay, SunBird, FourWinns,
SeaSwirl, Chaperal, and many others).  I looked at new to decide which brands
were of interest, and then bought used.

Bayliner suffered from a number of points (all first hand...):

Cheap trim.  I nearly broke a vent by leaning on it.  The side windows
were VERY flimsy, etc.  (87 - 89 range)  (17 to 20 foot bowrider)

Hull was not as solid as others (bang with fist test)

Force outboard (and I wanted OB) showed signs of poor craftsmanship (sloppy
molding of the lower unit etc.) as well as being of a much lower technology
level than all other brands of OBs.

Trailer - small tires and light weight frame.

On the plus side, I was very concerned about tow weight so the light weight of
the boat and trailer was also a plus.

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From: rives@tmp.medtronic.com (Mark Rives)

I have 3 Bayliner incidents:

  1.  Canyon Lake, Phoenix, AZ.  Last summer a Bayliner (approx. 19')
      was seen imitating a jet ski.  The driver (obviously brain dead)
      was closely following a 30'+ cruiser and jumping its wakes.  The
      Bayliner must be pretty rugged since I saw it come completely
      out of the water 2 or 3 times.

  2.  I met a fellow member of the Phoenix Area Water Ski Team to do
      some skiing.  While riding in his Bayliner (17', ~1990) he got out
      the special screwdriver he always kept in the glove box and asked
      me to check for loose screws to tighten.  He was afraid the boat
      might come apart at any second and was constantly tightening loose
      hardware.

  3.  I witnessed another boat bump into a Bayliner in a high wind
      situation at the boat ramp.  The corner of the other boat hit the
      Bayliner right above the water 2' from the stern.  It punched a
      2" high by 3" wide slot right in the side.  The fiberglass was
      paper thin, you could make it bend by just pushing on the side!

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from kstuart@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Kenneth Stuart)

Have a '81 MONTEREY, w/Volvo Penta Outdrive, 200 hp V8, 23 ft.  Have
owned the boat for about 5 years.

No outdrive problems.  Engine had warped intake (NOT exhaust) valve
on one cylinder when I got it (abuse by former owner?), but has been
a great performer since repair.  Usual degradation of vinyl upholstery
due to sunshine.  No indications of any hull problems, even tho it has
had the usual dings and bumps normally encountered in a 10+ year old
boat.

I do not like the interior layout of the cabin.  This was changed by
Bayliner in the mid-80's, however, to add much more storage and better use of
space.

Basically, I can say that I have been quite satisfied.  I think that
since Bayliner seems to have an enormous sales volume, I would guess
that lots of other boaters share my feelings of satisfaction.

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From: Henry Stowell <hfs@u.washington.edu>

I purchased a Bayliner 2160 Trophy new in 1985 and enjoyed it until
1990 when i sold it, I put over 1200 hours on it with only one problem
which was my fault, a broken timing belt that i did not change when it
was time to. I had the Volvo AQ125 engine with a Volvo 270 outdrive.
Nothing fell of the boat nothing came loose and the family that bought
it from me is still using it.  In my book it's a good boat for the money.

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From: ss@tamarack.cray.com (Sandra Swanson)

We are brand-new Bayliner owners, our 19' Cuddy Classic has but 16 hours
on the meter.  Since we don't have much operating experience to share,
we'll share our purchasing experience.

Briefly, no other manufacturer offered anywhere near as much boat for the
money.  If it weren't for Bayliner, we would have had to settle for much
less boat or (shudder, shudder) no boat at all!

Sure, one can always pay more, but from what we saw Bayliner offers the
best "Bang/Buck" ratio around.

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From: rrusk@rcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com (Bob Rusk)

As a former boat mechanic, I accept your challenge.  I expect that my
contact with these boats will qualify as personal experience.  I was
working on a variety of boats in 1986-7.  Since we were an authorized
OMC and Volvo sterndrive dealer, we saw quite a few of these boats.
All had been used in a salt-water environment in South Florida.  Unless
otherwise stated, the models I worked on were 19' open-bow runabouts
with Volvo 125hp I/O's.

Around 1986-7, Bayliner started using their own gauges on the dashboard.
These gauges would produce rust streaks running down the dash.  As they
are of an odd shape and size, they cannot be easily replaced with
higher-quality gauges.  Even if they were normal sized, it would cost
a few hundred dollars to have it done.

Bayliner's side-mount single-lever remote control (used on most or all
models from about 1984 until at least the late 80's) is mounted on a flimsy
side panel.  It feels like it wants to come off in your hand.  I've seen
them crack the panel and come loose.  Also, the control is of poor design
and suffers from corrosion in several areas.  After a couple of seasons,
it must be disassembled and greased.  This costs $75.00-$125.00.  Their
steering head also felt like it was of similarly poor construction, but
we did not replace or repair any of them.

On boats stored inside on racks, the interior (carpet and upholstery)
looked worn out after 3-4 years.  Seats would be torn, and carpet stained
and faded.  Boats stored outside with the convertible top up looked old
even sooner.  In addition, Bayliner's striping is done in tape.  It 
almost always looks old in a couple of years on boats that see much
use.

We turned a 1985 model away because it needed to have the fuel tank pulled
and this would require removing the carpet, cutting the floor, removing
the tank, reinstalling and repairing the floor, and recarpeting the
boat.  The owner was not anxious to spend this kind of money.

Since the lower half of the motor box is not removable, repair work was
extremely difficult on a V-8 powered 19' Bayliner cuddy.  While the
Bayliner is not alone in having poor engine access, this boat was
much worse than most.  When a repair is hard to perform, the owner ends
up paying more for it.  This same motor box made the bilge pump
inaccessible, and made the timing belt difficult to change on the Volvo
4-cyl I/O engine.

There were many problems associated with Bayliner's choice of the Volvo
4-cyl engine.  These engines had a well-known problem with their exhaust
manifolds, which caused their cylinder heads to be eaten away.  While
the head could frequently be repaired (around $700.00 as I recall),
the replacement was a couple thousand $$.  We had to repair several of
these.  In spite of this well-known problem, Bayliner insisted on using
this engine for 5-10 years!  This problem has finally gone away, as
Bayliner switched from Volvo to OMC and then MerCruiser I/O's.

It was a common, sad sight to see people who owned 2-3 year old Bayliner
19' I/O's who could not sell them for within $1000 of what they owed
on them due to the boat's rapid depreciation.

I do not claim that Bayliner is a bad boat (for its intended
purposes), but their smaller models do not have any business 
running in a salt-water environment or receiving
heavy use.  The Bayliner boats that I have run have a nice ride and
handle well.
But the Bayliner has most of the
faults of the other cheap boats, and some fairly unique ones that the
others don't have.  In the two years that I spent fixing boats in Miami, 
I never met a satisfied Bayliner owner who had owned his/her boat for over
two years.

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From: Bob Hardwick <hardwick@ubvax.UB.com>

I own a Bayliner 3870 it is a 1988 hull. I Have owned the boat since may of
1988.  I have put about 189 hours on the boat in that time. When I got the
boat the only problem with it was that the port engine would some times not
start from the lower station. I traced the fault to the connectors on the
flying bridge, one pin had been pushed back and was not making good contact.
I fixed that with a splice and that is still working.  The only problem that
is on going is that the sender for the water tank keeps going out. I 
have replaced it twice and I will now look for a better unit. 

The Henio engines are great they start with no preheat in all but the coldest
weather. The Gen set is harder to start than the main engines.
The boat has some
of the best access to the engines that I have seen in boats of this size. You
can get to all the service points with out opening the cabin floor.

The things I don't like are few. The boat could use better sound deading from
the engines and gen set. I
also wish that the boat had a deeper bow entry this would help the tracking
in rough weather (I sail San Francisco Bay).  The use of the sprayed on fluff
on the overheads in the cabins is another small dislike as is the use of
carpet to cover the hull in the forward cabin.

I have used the boat in all types of weather and like the boat. 

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From: "Olli Hein{m{ki, HY ATKK, puh. 708 4645" <HEINAMAKI@cc.Helsinki.FI>

I just wanted to say that I love my Bayliner. It's an '87 Capri 21' Cuddy Cabin.
It has a 230 hp 5 liter Mercruiser/OMC and I'm impressed with the performance
and smooth ride. Outside the boat still looks almost like new, inside the
carpeting is a little rough on the edges and the cabin doors are hanging a bit.
Otherwise it is in great shape, the engine feels smooth. 

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From: rickf@pmafire.inel.gov (Rick Furniss)

   Currently own a 1984 Ciera 2450 Bayliner Cabin Cruiser.
   Good boat for the dollar. Paid 10.6k used, and feel I got a good deal.
   
   The only things I found I don't like:

(1) The alcohol stove doesn't work worth a damn.  Leaks fluid trying to light
    it , causing flames 3 foot high.

(2) Master battery switch location in motor compartment sucks.  I get pained
    removeing all the crap on the deck to get to it.

(3) Anchor rope storage area hole.  Where you have to feed a 1/2 inch rope
    down a 3/4 inch hole.  What a pain.

   I feel the quality of the boat is average,  price below average, utility
above average.

   I looked for boats over two years, and found nothing in my price range in a
cabin cruiser to fit the bill.

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From: torsten@unisql.UUCP (Torsten Weirich)

... a friend of mine bought a
brand new one about 2 months ago.  It is a nice looking boat with
a Mercruiser 4.3LX/Alpha One drive system.  The FIRST three times
he had it out all his engine oil drained into the bilge.  After
tearing down the motor the third time and replacing all kinds of
seals and gaskets, it was discovered that the real problem was that
someone had neglected to tighten the oil pressure sensor and that
oil was leaking from there.

The question I have is whether this was caused by improper installation
or poor quality control at the Mercruiser factory?

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From: larry@pdn.paradyne.com (Larry Swift)

My first time aboard one, I received a nasty cut from
the edge of a piece of raw acrylic that was supposed
to serve as a locker door.  Even when it was new, the
first time it bumped a dock, a dent was left in the
aluminum rub rail.  It was about 4 or 5 years old,
35 feet long, and I don't know the model.

While approaching the dock a little faster than he
had intended, he threw it into reverse at something
more than idle throttle.  It didn't make it.  It
stayed in forward gear and slammed the seawall,
breaking the bow pulpit in half.  At least Bayliner
paid for the repair.  But I'd be real nervous about
the transmission after that.

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From: heon@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (garry.j.heon)

As for Bayliner problems, I haven't owned one.  I did see a 2450 (I think)
jump the wake of our local NYC ferry.  I must admit it's wake is
very large ...
the Bayliner wound up with a cracked hull and a call to Sea Tow.
--
Hal Lynch
	Internet: Hal@cache.declab.usu.edu
	DECnet:   USU::HAL
Newsgroups: rec.boats