HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:54:22 GMT

One book has been published on this subject already by Dr. Witztum
called "Hameimad Hanosaf". This book is written in Hebrew, was published
in 5749, and contains further references. By the way, the author does
not discuss the theological implications of these studies whatsoever.

The following paragraph is found in the introduction to this work (page iii):

"The present work represents serious research carried out by serious
investigators. Since the interpretation of the phenomenon in question
is enigmatic and controversial, one may want to demand a level of
statistical significance beyond what would be demanded for more routine
conclusions. While it is premature to say that the author's thesis
has been established decisively, the results obtained are sufficiently
striking to deserve a wide audience and to encourage further study.

Professor H. Furstenberg       --- Hebrew University
Professor I. Piatetski-Shapiro --- Tel Aviv University, Yale University
Professor D. Kazhdan           --- Harvard University
Professor J. Bernstein         --- Harvard University"

(Interesting to note is their comment that more proof should be required
than is otherwise necessary.)

Also included is some comments from Dr. Eli Marzebach from the
Dept. of Statistics at Bar Ilan University, where he states
that after reviewing the statistical tests conducted by the author,
he is conviced that (my own free translation) this phenomenon
is definitely not random, and there is something to this.

For more information, contact Aish Hatorah.

As an addendum, I would like to add my own 2 cents. Judging by the
vicious reaction on the part of some readers to my previous posts
on this topic, I have realized the following bitter truth:

The implications of these studies, assuming them to be proven correct,
is so enormous that it will be absolutely devastating to some indiduals.
This, I believe, is the reason for their vicious reaction, not to
mention scorn and ridicule.

Sincerely,
Hayim Hendeles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimoff)
Subject: Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av.
Organization: Tudor Investment Corporation, CT
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:32:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.191710.9635@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>Yes.  There are no restrictions of meat/wine on Shabbos.  (Thank G-d!  I'd never
>survive the 9 days otherwise!)  In fact, you can even eat meat to your heart's 
>content on Shabbos erev Tisha B'Av, right up until sunset.  There is no "last 
>meal" of bread and/or eggs with ashes when Tisha B'Av is on Sunday.
>

Actually, this year Shabbos IS Tisha B'av.  We push the fast off until
the next day.

So..you can eat meat and drink wine on Tisha B'av this year.


-- 
Dan Shimoff               Am Yisrael          \ 
Phone: (212) 602-6798     B'Eretz Yisrael       A recipe for success.
Address: shdan@tudor.com  Al Pi Torat Yisrael / Read any Kook books lately?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: srutt@boulder.Colorado.EDU (DNA Kaifeng)
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Jews?
Keywords: Bat Creek Stone, Cyrus Gordon
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:09:27 GMT

hmccullo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Huston McCulloch) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>However, even if there had been no inscription, the Bat Creek burial
>turns out to contain positive proof of some kind of an Old World contact
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>with the New World.  A pair of bracelets, originally identified by Cyrus
>Thomas as (native) copper, were found under the same skull as the
>engraved stone and carbon dated wood fragments.  In 1970, the bracelets
>were analyzed and found in fact to be heavily leaded yellow brass, viz.
>copper alloyed with approximately 27% zinc and 3.3% lead.  Brass existed
>in the Old World since 45 B.C., but (unlike native copper), was unknown
>in the New World prior to Columbus.  (See my 1988 *Tennessee
>Anthropologist* article.)  The bracelets, together with the carbon date
>(32 AD - 769 AD) are therefore proof of a pre-Viking, not to mention
                                ^^^^^
>pre-Columbian contact, even without the inscribed tablet.  The
>inscription itself is our only clue as to what type of a contact this
>was, however.

>We thus know the approximate date of the inscription, that it could be
>Old World, and that it is as solid "scientific evidence" as McKusick
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>could ask for.  What is it, then, if not Paleo-Hebrew?  Note that if
>Gordon had never identified the script as Hebrew, the bracelets would
>have remained "copper" to this day, and the wood fragments would never
>have been carbon dated.

I would hate to be put on trial for murder with you as judge and jury!
What you consider "positive proof", in the world of the harder sciences
might at best be considered a weak hypothesis.

What about skeletal data? I'm not a physical anthropologist,
but wouldn't it be possible to distinguish an American aboriginal/Asian
skull from a European/African skull? What about DNA fragments? If the 
DNA is not completely deteriorated I could relatively easily classify
its owners in one of these two or three groups. Has this avenue been
pursued? I'm not suggesting that these tests would yield "positive proof",
but it'd be a whole lot more positive than what you've got.

[stuff deleted]

>                                   -- Hu McCulloch

                             -steve

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@******************************************
@ email: srutt@beagle.colorado.edu @* "Nothing in biology makes sense except *
@   Dept. of Molecular, Cellular   @*  in the light of evolution."           *
@    and Developmental Biology     @*  - T. Dobzhansky                       *
@ University of Colorado, Boulder  @*                   Opinions are my own. *
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@******************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<1992Jul31.163857.28018@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:25:37 GMT

> In article <1992Jul31.163857.28018@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>
>  >  the ways of the Torah
>  >  are pleasant, and if people would just follow the Torah we have 
>  >  been promised a land of Milk and Honey.    
>
>  Clue time: not all of us believe that Torah and halacha have a whole
>  lot to do with each other.
>
>  >/M
  
  Well they do.  The Halacha and the Torah are inseparable.
--
/M
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Discovery
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:09:58 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)

In article <1992Jul31.001631.682370@locus.com>, hayim@locus (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>It's a shame you didn't hear the same lecture presented by a Mathematician.

I first heard of the codes from a UCLA Statistics lecturer.  I asked
him one technical question, regarding an alternative test, and he had
no idea what I was talking about.  He ended with Moshiach in 5750
predictions but, of course, no details.

The second time I heard about them from a Mathematician was much more
interesting.  He is also an Orthodox rabbi.  Somebody frum brought up
the question about codes in our presense, and the rabbi mathematician
got very annoyed and denounced it, said he didn't want to hear about
it, the subject was perversions of gematria, etc etc.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:23:38 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)

In article <2349@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet (Warren Burstein) writes:
>				   one would be allowed to (unless they
>had explicitly forbidden such beliefs or practices - aside from the
>old-style R temples that insisted on bare heads (or so I've heard - I
>see lots of kipot on the heads of people going in and out of a nearby
>R shul in Jerusalem)

In America, you can still find such R temples.

>		      I'm not aware of anything we O do (aside from
>claiming that they are wrong) that they think is wrong.

That `claiming' covers a wide range of territory.  Rejecting their food
they can usually deal with.  But they generally do not like, nor accept
quietly, the rejection of their conversions, the retroactive annulment
of their marriages, and so on.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Refrigerators In "Stranger Among Us" (SPOILER)
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:36:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.153218.3970@godzilla.quotron.com> jeff@godzilla.quotron.com (Jeff Marder) writes:
>The Rebbe's kitchen contained separate refrigerators for meat and dairy.  Under
>the laws of Kashrut, can't meat and milk products that are COLD be stored  
>together  (in separate milk and meat containers of course)?????
>
>
>-- 
>===========================================================
>jeff@godzilla.quotron.com
>Quotron Systems   310-302-4316
>


Yes, but perhaps he was afraid that while taking stuff out or
putting it in something would spill.

Then again, the movie writers probably don't know halacha and its
much easier to notice two refrigerators than separate sets of
dishes in the cabinets (without making a big deal).

Or it could have been a subtle dig by writers who don't keep kosher.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 14:47:35 GMT

I do not believe there is any basis for the claim that American Jews
show more concern for the situation of their fellow Jews than they do
for non-Jews.

Nor do I think it's necessarily bad to maintain a major focus of
interest on the needs of your own people.

For instance, can you name a single group of American non-Jews who did
anything at all for the plight of the German Jews in the 1930's?

And if the American Jewish community had taken as strong an interest
in the German problem then as they have in the problems of non-Jews
more recently, then many more Jews might have been saved from the
holocaust. 

Yes, it's important to show concern for the needs of all human beings
in trouble. But it's also important to notice who is looking out for
the needs of your own people. And if there is a history of unconcern
on the part of outsiders, it is then important to try to insure that
those needs are given appropriate priority by members of your own
people. 

--Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:27:34 GMT

In <153p18INN4q4@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) writes:

>You might start with "Liberal Judaism" by Borowitz, who is certainly a
>leader of the Reform movement.  One reason why I couldn't get through the
>book was because of the nasty and completely unwarranted things he said about
>Orthodox Judaism.

I haven't read that.  I'll take a look.

>One also might argue that "Gates of Mitzvah" states that Orthodoxy is wrong,
>at least by implication, since in discussing the origin of Mitzvah, they
>never seem to consider very seriously the implications of the possibility
>that the Orthodox position might be correct.  That is to say, it's pretty
>obvious from a reading of "Gates of Mitzvah" that none of the things listed
>as mitzvot are actually considered required in the sense that Orthodox Judaism
>considers mitzvot requirements.  It seems to me that that's a pretty clear
>implication that the CCAR thinks that Orthodoxy is wrong.

You're confusing disagreement with condemnation.  I'm sure no
responsible Jewish leader of any movement would say that Orthodox Jews
are wrong to follow tradition, observe the mitzvot, etc.  They might
at most say that such practices are not necessary.  But they're still
a valid expression of Judaism.

However, Orthodoxy cannot possibly accept C or R as valid forms of
Judaism, and therefore indicates not only disagreement, but judgement
and condemnation.  That's what I meant by "wrong" - I meant morally
wrong, or going against Judaism, rather than simple disagreement.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:46:58 GMT

In <9207271431.AA00820@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com
(User - Don Gertler) writes:

>I want my kids to have the same.  That's one reason I do not restrict
>my friends to Orthodox Jews.  My kids will see that I don't discriminate
>and, I hope, they will deport themselves in like manner.  On the other
>hand, I will give my children a complete Jewish education as well, without
>trying to rationalize the alternative.  If school is the only way your
>kids can have contact with people of different races and religions --
>or different levels of observance within Judaism, for that matter --
>then perhaps you should reexamine the way you interact with people
>unlike yourself.

First off: I don't have kids yet; I was speaking hypothetically.

Secondly: I have lots of contact with people from other ethnic groups -
mostly at work, but also at the social level.  My wife (Canadian)
comes from a Chinese background, although she did convert before we
got married.  However, kids spend a lot of time at school, and most of
their friendships are developed at school.

>They'll learn more from your example, and less from
>being deprived of their own distinct heritage.

Sure, I think I do set a good example.  But perhaps the same argument
could be applied to learning Jewish identity?  You see the problem?  If
you feel that "a good example" is not sufficient to ensure a strong Jewish
identity, then you understand why I feel that direct contact at school
with children from other backgrounds is important.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Social history of Israeli army: Source
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:07:06 GMT

In article <YePMu3W00iUx83RUkx@andrew.cmu.edu> ed16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Etan Shalom Diamond) writes:
>Someone in my class asked me to post this request:
>
>Does anyone know of a good (or bad) social history of the Israeli army
>or social histories of any of the Israeli wars?
>
>he does not just want standard general's memoirs or strategic/tacitcal
>accounts of war, but rather something that focuses on the social aspects
>of the military or war's effects on society.
>
>please e-mail me or post it on the net. 
>
>Thanks
>
>------
>Etan Diamond

Yigal Alon, "The Making of Israel's Army."  This includes much theory about
the relationship of Israel's armed forces to the democratic institutions of
the government.

-- Chris Metcalfe
From: irwin@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Irwin David)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Questionnaire/Survey
Date: 30 Jul 92 04:44:40 GMT
Distribution: qc
Organization: Universite de Montreal



To whom it may concern,


In order to complete a Ph.D. dissertation in the field of political science 
I must verify a certain number of propositions. To do so, I must gather data.
To gather data I must ask people to fill a questionnaire.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 |If yourself or your parents were born in a country other than Canada you| 
 |qualify as a respondent.                                                |   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you wish to receive a copy of the questionnaire or further details, please 
send me a message or provide me with a postal address. You should expect the
questionnaire to arrive via Canada Post within the week. 

P.S. Thank you to those who have already accepted to participate in the
study.

Regards.

David H. Irwin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
David H. Irwin				E-mail: irwin@ere.umontreal.ca
University of Montreal
			<<Have a Nice Day>>
B
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hebrew school (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 30 Jul 1992 18:16:30 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin

In article 13594@Princeton.EDU, afarkas@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Andrew Farkas) writes:
<In article <l7dkq7INN2th@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM< janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
<<
<<Is anyone here taking into account that parents who may not be that 
<<observant in the home are still trying to give their kids a Jewish 
<<identity?  Would you rather the parents gave the kids no Jewish 
<<education at all?
<
<
<Send your kids to yeshiva or send them to Hebrew school, but if you
<want them to be and live as Jews you must set an example in your own
<life.  No amount of discussions or studying, say about the importance
<of shabbat, can counteract practice.  If a child learns hilchot shabbat,
<and sees his or her family is mehalel shabbat, what enduring lesson
<will the child learn?
<
<Education is important, and the more the better.  One cannot, however,
<expect that Hebrew school can impart Jewish identity when that identity
<is not to be found at home.
<

May I ask whether you read through my entire post?  At the end, I addressed 
this question as follows:

*
*I very much disagree with this statement.  I was raised in a non-
*observant home with both parents working on Saturday -- my exposure 
*to Jewish practices came through Hebrew school, and later grew through 
*the synagogue's Jewish youth movement.  The fact that there was a 
*discrepancy with home practice to me just meant that my parents didn't
*want to do it, not that it was invalid.  And, BTW, I know of several 
*cases where kids challenged their parents after hearing what should 
*be done in Hebrew school and the parents became more observant. 
*


********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 
********************************************************************************
From: aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:57:35 GMT
Organization: KESHERnet International - Dallas, TX

In article <2309@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>
>No, that term refers to people who can say every word in the
>traditional siddur at speeds that the non-Turbo cannot attain.


Ah, that's me.  Non-turbo.  The Sefardim can read like greased lightning.
I'ts amazing.  How can you squeeze  the entire Amidah into one long sentence
WITHOUT taking a breath?!?!  Once I tried to keep up, but I had to skip
every fourth or fifth word, so I just restarted and generally annoyed everyone.

:-)



-- 
| Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
| KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
| The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
| Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
From: afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Av Frydman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:37:03 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes...

 But I would teach my children myself
>rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
>degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
>ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
>trained by either one.
> 
>	-Nora
> 
Clearly, something must be very wrong to engender this kind of hatred.  What
does "Orthodox" mean to you, Nora, that "anything" about it is anathema?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Refrigerators In "Stranger Among Us" (SPOILER)
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:37:28 PDT

In article <1992Jul24.181630.26105@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> dsg@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (david.s.green) writes:
>
>I heard that one of the original suggestions for the title was:
>
>"Dances With Jews"

No, no; that's:

"Dances with Wolffs"