From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.history
Subject: Re: State Supported Antisemitism in Russia
Date: 6 Nov 92 10:01:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov6.050118.17161
Followup-To: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.jewish,soc.history
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <96381@netnews.upenn.edu> 
sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:

SB:
>Actually, I got scared by Mr. Zeleny's promise to repost his letter
>every week and desided to answer for the sake of the bandwidth.

I am glad to hear that.  Maybe we can have a dialogue after all.

>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:

>>In article <96053@netnews.upenn.edu>
>>sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:

SB:
>>> As for myth about state supported antisemitism - never happened.

MZ:
>>Dear Sergei,
>>
>>If you mean your claim to be restricted to the Soviet history, would you
>>kindly tell me whether or not you are aware of the circumstances of the
>>murder of Solomon Mikhoels by the agents of the secret police, and the
>>official persecution of the Jewish Antifascist Committee, or the "doctors'
>>case" of 1953.  

SB:
>I'm wondering that *all* actions performed against persons who happened
>to be Jews are called antisemitic. Interesting enogh this coinsedence:
>the foundation of the state of Israel and the disbanding the JAC (1948?).
>I would dare to say that the persecution of members of the JAC, although
>having been performed against Jews, had nothing to do with antisemitism.
>
>Let me explain why do I think so.  First of all, the JAC, being organized
>in 1942, (actually quite pro-soviet "lavochka") by the year of 1946 
>had done quite a lot. I mean international contacts. In the year 1946
>rebjata zasvetilis' - they reported their actions to comrade Suslov,
>who defenetely reported further. Comrade Stalin wasn't that stupid to
>not realise tha the JAC has international contacts with quite influensive
>people and those contacts are not controlled by the state (I won't discuss 
>here is that good or bad).  The fate of the JAC had been determined,
>sooner or later it should have been disbanded. 
>I hope you won't propose the idea that the disbaning must not be followed
>by persecution - first af all the system didn't work that way, the second
>the JAC had accumulated quite a power which was a guilt by itself.

You are explaining the causes, and I am prepared to accept your
explanation for the sake of the argument.  However, I asked you to
*characterize* the persecution, rather than *explain* it, which is, on
the face of it, a much simpler task.  I don't want to know your
opinion of *why* it happened; I want to know your opinion of *what*
happened.  And I really can't see how your causal account bears on my
point that the trials of "rootless cosmopolites" were part of a
large-scale state-organized antisemitic campaign.  So what if the
authorities were paranoid? the fact of the persecution does not change
because you can ascribe it to paranoia!

SB:
>And, of course, the state of Israel slightly accelerated events.
>
>Surely (when comrade Stalin called Russian people heroes who won WWII),
>he must have explained his actions to heroes, he must have found a 
>definition for the guilt. Isn't it genious - "besrodnye kosmopolity"?
>Defenetely it is.
>
>Was the action antisemitic? No. Just for protection. Just in case.

Hold the horses, Sergei.  If he persecutes Jews *as* "rootless
cosmopolites", that is, as Jews, how can such persecution *not* be
regarded as antisemitic?

SB:
>"Doctors' case" was just a side effect. How come that "bezrodnye
>kosmopolity" were treating comrade Stalin and other important 
>comrades? 

How come Hitler had a Jewish doctor?  What exactly is your point?

SB:
>Is that good enough? Ohh, forgot. The murder of S. Mikhoels. 
>What must they have done with the Chairman of the JAC? Leave
>him alone? Put in jail? What?
>
>BTW, why don't you consider the murder of comrade Kirov as
>a russophobic action? And mass murder of others? 

Sergei, you are talking about an organized campaign of "unmasking"
rootless cosmopolites as Zionist agents of American imperialism, a
campaign that lasted for over four years, and resulted in death and
imprisonment of thousands, as well as in the promulgation of a classic
stereotype of inherently disloyal Jew.  You are talking about the
recapitulation of the Dreifus affair on a scale of three orders of
magnitude, complete with an inventive revival of the mediaeval poison
libel.  In short, you are talking about phenomena described as
organized, state-supported and orchestrated antisemitism by every
responsible historian of the period.  Yet you steadfastly refuse to
describe them as such.  Please tell me: do you believe antisemitism
exists? if so, what distinguishes the 1948-52 campaign against
"rootless cosmopolitism" from genuine antisemitism?  I shall be glad
to furnish you with historical references, and furthermore will ask my
father to describe his own 1950 conviction for "zionist propaganda",
if you stand in need of source material.

MZ:
>>If the scope of your claim encompasses the Russian Empire,
>>would you please outline your opinion on the historical reality of the
>>laws mandating the Jewish Pale of Settlement and the percentage quotas, as
>>well as the state prosecution of the Beylis affair, 

SB:
>Actually, this was out of my claim, sinse we started from entrance
>exams. However, I admit that antisemitism existed in the Empire,
>and it was true state supported. The base for that was
>Judaism as different (just *different*) religion from that of
>officially accepted in the state. You would not claim that it is
>a lie to say that converted to Christianity Jew automatically 
>obtained ALL rights.

Quite so, all *political* rights; I hope that you would agree that he
still remained subject to what Shulgin called "biological" and
"metaphysical" varieties of antisemitism.

SB:
>Also I should add that restrictions of rights, even persecution and
>murder of people with different religion happened ALL the time ALL
>over the world. Needless to note about "starovertsy".

Quite so.  What is the point of this observation?

So it seems that you believe that antisemitism exists.  Now, I would
appreciate an answer to my above question in comparative terms of the
parallel between the imperial and the soviet situation.

SB:
>Please note that all the above is not intended to pass the judgement
>in any way and sinse we have different appreciation (otsenka) of 
>"Russian soul" I would be happy not to discuss it any further.

I confess that I am wholly unaware of your appreciation of the
"Russian soul"; however I will go on record as stating that I do not
believe in the existence of national character.

MZ:
>>and the authorship of
>>the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" by an agent of the Imperial secret
>>police.

SB:
>Questionable.

Proven beyond any doubt in Norman Cohn's _Warrant for Genocide_, New
York, 1969.  Please share the basis for your questioning of this
account.

MZ:
>>This message will be reposted weekly until a complete answer is obtained.

SB:
>Don't do it, dear Mikhail.

I won't -- provided we can continue this conversation as rational men.

>S.B.

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
" -- I shall speak bluntly, because life is short."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish