HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hartman@informix.com (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Criticizing the 12 Steps
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:51:01 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Nov06.160449.9142@bnr.ca> ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge) writes:
>In article <1dd921INNcgh@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> btowle@ecst.csuchico.edu (Brendon Blaire Towle) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov05.042951.16832@bnr.ca> ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge) writes:
>>>
>>> ... i like to criticize the twelve steps any time i can.
>>
>> ... Criticizing
>>the twelve steps because of your own undealt-with resentment is merely
>>spreading the disease.  Carrying that anger must be _so_ satisfying!
>
>It may be from your personal experience, it's not from mine.  Don't make so
>many assumptions.  Why is it that twelve-steppers are so sensitive about
>criticism of the twelve steps?  (Is there something "undealt-with" there?)

Hmmm.  You know, I thought that both of these comments were a little
off the wall.  In general, I don't think it's a good idea to
criticize another person's program.  I also don't think it's a good
idea to "diagnose" people who criticize one's program.

(e.g., Live and let live.)

If criticizing the 12 steps helped anyone get better, I'd be in favor
of it!  But unless you think that by doing so you're helping someone in
particular, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.  If you've had specific
problems or bad experiences, it might be good to let people know what
they were.  But please, no more gratuitous pot-shots, OK?

>As far as helping others, the rest of my post, which you conveniently left out,
>was a response offering suggestions to someone who was having trouble with
>the "Christian bias" of the twelve steps.  Are you saying that offering
>alternatives to the twelve steps is not helpful?  Are you saying that the
>twelve steps are the only method of recovery from chemical dependency?

I appreciated that part of your article.  If something else can work
for someone else, I, and most of the 12-step people I associate
with, hope that the people who need it find it.  God knows I didn't
enjoy those 1st 90 days.

>Can you understand why i might enjoy criticizing the twelve steps when i
>see people presenting the twelves steps as the _only_ method of recovery?

No Allen, as a matter of fact, I can't.

-r
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: A Pagan trying to recover
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:35:08 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

(David Delney Palmer) writes:
|>	I am a chemically depenent person who is in the process of recovery
|>from addiction in general.  My addition also includes food.
|>	My problem is this; the conventional concept of spirituality of God
|>has not worked for me in 12step programs.  I am someone who has recently 
|>decided to pursue a spirtual path in earth based religions(no it is not SatanismThese religions and spiritual paths have many dieties both male and female.
|>I have a problem when I'm told to believe in "Him" as if the is only one God.
|>I could be wrong, but the 12 steps do seem to have a built in Christian bias


(Allen Ethridge) writes:
|I think you're right - the twelve steps do have a Christian bias.  But i've
|been told that even an atheist can have a higher power (doesn't work with my
|version of atheism though), so i'm sure there are twelve-steppers that can
|explain how to resolve your spiritual beliefs with the twelve steps.

|If you definitely can't work with the twelve steps there are other
|alternatives, such as Rational Recovery or SOS.  I enjoyed reading the RR
|book "The small book", so that's my bias.  I also remember reading in 
|Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" a reference to a drug and alcohol
|free group (coven?) of witches.  I don't think they were "recovering" but
|it's still some place to look.

Allen: Thank you for such an un-inflammatory response. It's loaded
with good ideas, too, so why the apologeticness?

David: The first point is to decide that those other people in the
meeting are not going to turn you into a biblethumper anytime soon.

The second point is to decide that, as billed, everything in a meeting
is OPTIONAL. You don't have to pray along with them, you don't have to
believe in their gods. (and yes, it might be nice to change the words
a bit to make it easier, but I think you can understand the "don't you
dare change stuff that works" mentality.)

The third point is to consider meetings as "support groups" where you
can go to hear other people with the same problem talk and NOT try to
solve your problems, but just to offer compassion and insights. I know
a big benefit I get from my meetings is just hearing what happened to
other people, and mapping it to what happened to me. 

The fourth point is to consider books like "The Alternative 12 Steps:
A SECULAR Guide to Recovery" by Matha Cleveland and Arlys G. They
might help.

A lot of agnostics and atheists have trod the 12-step road before you.
If you're lucky, you might be able to find one or two in your meeting,
and they can help you, too. Why not just ask?
From: stellaa@flash.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Stella Adams)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Concept of God and Losing my Ground
Date: 7 Nov 92 01:42:35 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4



I have been in recovery (in the AA program) sober for over 14 months now and
throughout this time I have had a problem with some of the ways of AA.  Last
night I was at a step/tradition meeting which we were reviewing the first
tradition, when suddenly I realized what I had just read was a complete
contridiction as to the program and the big book.  The paragraph (end of
page, 1st page of tradition 1 in 12x12) said someting to the effect "there
are no "YOU MUSTS".  It seems to me that there are actually someting like
57 musts in the BIG BOOK.  Is this not a contradiction?

I feel that some people actually lose theirselves once in recovery.  A meeting
every day is someting I know many people do.  They wrap their lives up in
recovery so much, that reality is actually gone.  Isn't getting sober and
learning to live life on lifes basis our goal.  Be a people among people?
Isn't it true that most people in recovery "AA" usually ONLY have friends
that are also in recovery and would rather not deal with "NORMIES".  They
don't feel comfortable with them, ie. insecure?

I know so many people that cannot carry on a conversation without reciting
someting from the big book or an some over used AA cliche, it almost makes
me sick.  When I am away from meetings, I don't want to hear it!  My idea
of recovery was not to become some recorded message to recite to people over
and over again.  I wanted to learn how to live life normal.  

As for friends in AA, I have found a bunch of people who don't want to work, 
want constant sympathy and attention, and who love to sit and talk behind
my back about what is going on with my life.  Is their life so boring they
have nothing better to talk about than me.  The women are jealous bitches
who stab me in the back one minute, try and steal my boyfriend, and be my
best friend the next.

I am tiard!  AND I AM NOT SETTING MYSELF UP TO LEAVE.  THIS IS MY PERSONAL
OPINION AND I AM ENTIRELY ENTITLED TO IT, JUST AS YOU ARE TO YOURS.  YOU CAN
TAKE WHAT I SAY AND KEEP IT, OR TRASH THE WHOLE THING IF YOU WISH.

I am glad that I got sober and would have never been able to do it without
AA but, I will not conform like everyone else.  I have rebelled this way
for a long time and will not be submissive.  You really can lose yourself
in the program, turn into a Johnny Harris clone.  I've seen it happen to
people.  

Is there anybody else out there that feels the same way I do?

Why do I have to pray?  Maybe I don't want to.  Isn't it possible that
the people of AA have enough willpower and godliness inside them to belive
in themselves and be able to stay sober.  I cannot honestly tell you that I
have a god of my understanding, and I can't actually say that I belive what
the bigbook and 12 x 12 says is gold.


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sanders@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sue Sanders)
Subject: Re: ANGER....
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:53:10 GMT

Boy, do I understand where you're coming from.  I've been sober for 9
years and I have had to learn how to be angry and not waiting until
I blow up.  I too had a friend that would occasionally upset me with her
behavior and I would go away and sulk for days.  Since this time we 
have had a few good fights.  (Verbal)  But we don't take them as personally
as we used too.  We have learned to agree to disagree and have allowed the
other to be mad as hell for awhile.  We have an even closer friendship today
because I know that whether I agree or not she will always tell me what she
thinks, and, she will not throw away our friendship if we cannot agree.

This is one of the gifts of staying sober.  True friendships.  Keep working
and don't give up.  5 is a hard year because everyone I know (including myself)
went through a really rough time.  Its a year you get to see many of your
character defects.  The big one seems to be self centeredness.

Sue
From: ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: A Pagan trying to recover
Date: 5 Nov 92 04:29:51 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.

In article <1992Nov4.235128.25458@wam.umd.edu> porta@wam.umd.edu (David Delney Palmer) writes:
>
>  Hello everybody,
>	I am a chemically depenent person who is in the process of recovery
>from addiction in general.  My addition also includes food.
>	My problem is this; the conventional concept of spirituality of God
>has not worked for me in 12step programs.  I am someone who has recently 
>decided to pursue a spirtual path in earth based religions(no it is not SatanismThese religions and spiritual paths have many dieties both male and female.
>I have a problem when I'm told to believe in "Him" as if the is only one God.
>I could be wrong, but the 12 steps do seem to have a built in Christian bias

I think you're right - the twelve steps do have a Christian bias.  But i've
been told that even an atheist can have a higher power (doesn't work with my
version of atheism though), so i'm sure there are twelve-steppers that can
explain how to resolve your spiritual beliefs with the twelve steps.

>to it.  Also, being told to get down on my knees and pray is something that I
>have a problem with because it really isn't the way we make contact with HP's.
>Are there any other people who are in the same situation sa me?
>
>I would like comments from anyone.
>
>Thank you
>David,
>-- 
>call david@cscwam,cville,wor,avw
> -  a quote here

If you definitely can't work with the twelve steps there are other
alternatives, such as Rational Recovery or SOS.  I enjoyed reading the RR
book "The small book", so that's my bias.  I also remember reading in 
Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" a reference to a drug and alcohol
free group (coven?) of witches.  I don't think they were "recovering" but
it's still some place to look.

Yes, i know, not much help here, but you asked for comments from anyone,
and i like to criticize the twelve steps any time i can.
-- 
allen@well.sf.ca.us
ethridge@bnr.ca
my opinions are my own
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Violence at AA meetings
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:21:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.110441.10045@vax.oxford.ac.uk> jeremy@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Martin) writes:
>I have been to several AA meetings recently that have been disrupted by a very
>violent drunk. He goads and threatens people until he gets thrown out.
>[...] Does anybody have any experience of dealing with violence at
>meetings that they would care to share? 

A few years ago, we had a guy who used to come to our meeting blind 
drunk on a regular basis.  Most of the time he sat in the back with 
his tongue hanging out (he had lost a lot of motor control).  Some-
times he was lucid, and when he was, we'd treat him like any other 
attendee.  As long as he didn't disrupt the meeting, it was ok.  But
when he'd get violent or abusive, or he'd come in throwing up or 
incontinent, we'd have the police take him off to the drunk tank.

>What can we do to protect ourselves that is consistent with the 
>twelve traditions?

We discussed this at a group conscience meeting.  We arrived at our 
decision, as you pointed out, based on our *common* welfare coming
first.  Also, we reasoned that at his worst, it did not appear that
he had a desire to stop drinking.  Finally, we also into account
what the Big Book says in the chapter on working with others, where 
it warns against spending too much time on a hopeless case, at the
expense of others who would benefit from our attention.  Based on
that, we believed we were doing the right thing.

Unfortunately, this story does not have a happy ending.  The man was 
found dead in a cheap hotel room a few months ago.  He never got
sober despite coming to meetings on and off for many years.

-Ed
From: mccall3080@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: mommie dearest
Date: 11 Nov 92 00:34:58 -0600
Summary: competition between parent and child
Reply-To: mccall3080@iscsvax.uni.edu
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

        A good friend of mine gave me an article to read today.  It was called,
"Mommie Dearest" and it was about competition between a mother and her
daughter.  This article described my relationship with my Mother to a T.
        I thought that the competitiveness was beginning to slacken, but now I
realize that it is just taking on a different form.  She is jealous of the
opportunities that I have and the type of person I am turning out to be and she
is doing everything in her power to make me feel bad.  She doesn't want me to
become better or appear better than her.  
        Of course we are very similar and with similar aptitudes.  That makes
things all the more competitive.  We are even in similar job fields.  I will be
graduating in a year and will be going into Higher education in the department
of residence.  She is in higher education for career planning and placement. 
She even said the other day that I will probably earn more than she will and I
know that she doesn't like it.
        The thing is, I've gotten caught up in it at times too.  Because she
competes and pushes, I fight back and try to beat her.  I'm just as wrong as
she is.  I should be working with her, not against.
        Anyway, I think if this type of relationship with your parent I think
you should read the article.  I think it is in the November issue of "New
Women".

Melissa
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: daalrutz@violet.uwaterloo.ca ( )
Subject: Clinton & recovery
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:18:41 GMT

Clinton's recovery:
I agree it's nice to hear some recovery words rather than the Blame game I've
heard for the last 4 years. I hope Clinton continues to work a recovery
program just like I do- so that the nation will begin to make progress. I
think I'm going to write him a letter of gratitude. I sure felt better waking
up this morning to his call for hope. Just last week I went into New York
City through Harlem River Drive up the west side and the difference between
the haves and the have nots was astonishing to me. Anyone with eyes could see
what has happened to one of our most beautiful cities in the nation (in my
opinion); I hope we can bring it back- where anyone anywhere can walk into
any neighborhood and feel respectful and trusted. Take what you like and
leave the rest. Serenity-Suz
From: jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org (John Spence)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Violence at AA meetings
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:21:30 GMT
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX

In article <1992Nov11.110441.10045@vax.oxford.ac.uk> jeremy@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Jeremy Martin) writes:
>I have been to several AA meetings recently that have been disrupted by a very
>violent drunk. He goads and threatens people until he gets thrown out. That is
>if there is anybody who feels like they want to throw him out. He has hit
>people in the meetings and threatens to kill people. Attendances at meetings
>seem to be dropping off. Perhaps newcomers are being frightened away, possibly
>for good. Our traditions state that our common welfare should come first. I am
>personally frightened of this man, yet at the same time I like him and hope
>that he recovers. Does anybody have any experience of dealing with violence at
>meetings that they would care to share? What can we do to protect ourselves
>that is consistent with the twelve traditions?
>					
>					Jeremy           
The traditions state that our common welfare should come first. If this 
drunk threatens people, call the police and have him arrested. Getting
tossed in jail might be what this drunk needs. Bring this up at the
inter-group meeting, your group might not be the only one he "attends".
This person needs serious intervention and you just might not have the
power to do this. 

We had a violent person at our group who stole things. Absolutly no
remorse. He had been in and out of jail and prison and hospitals and for
us to think that we could help him was just not living in the now. These
people are very sick and need professional help. Only after this can we
welcome him back. The person that I mentioned was disturbing many groups
in the area, we brought him up at the intergroup meeting and the
decision was made to report him to his parol officer. He is now either
in prison or in a mental hospital. There are those that we just can not
help.
-- 
jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org                                (214) 235-7161 x4100
John E. Spence                                                  CompuTrac, Inc.
"I don't speak for CompuTrac, and CompuTrac doesn't speak for me!"
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: a dysfunctional family wrinkle
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 92 15:07:13 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

Several years after moving away from my family, my folks got into recovery
and I did receive an amends from my Dad.  I had written him off emotionally
years ago.."hardened my heart" as it were.  It's very hard to watch a 
close relative kill themselves with alcohol.  

I had always suspected the many gifts in this person which were drowned
in alcohol.  Now even years into the recovery process, trust is still 
a little tenuous.  It's difficult to put the thousands of betrayals 
and put-downs and shamings out of my mind completely.  My higher
power helps with healing from these wounds a day at a time.  
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: gpotts@hebb.uoregon.edu
Subject: Re: Violence at AA meetings
Organization: Brain Electrophysiology Lab, University of Oregon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 17:44:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.110441.10045@vax.oxford.ac.uk> jeremy@vax.oxford.ac.uk
(Jeremy Martin) writes:
>I have been to several AA meetings recently that have been disrupted by a very
>violent drunk. He goads and threatens people until he gets thrown out. That is
>if there is anybody who feels like they want to throw him out. He has hit
>people in the meetings and threatens to kill people. Attendances at meetings
>seem to be dropping off. Perhaps newcomers are being frightened away, possibly
>for good. Our traditions state that our common welfare should come first. I am
>personally frightened of this man, yet at the same time I like him and hope
>that he recovers. Does anybody have any experience of dealing with violence at
>meetings that they would care to share? What can we do to protect ourselves
>that is consistent with the twelve traditions?
>                                        
>                                        Jeremy           
>

I do not speak here as someone with any special knowledge of the traditions or
their
application but only as someone who has seen two instances that might relate.
In
one instance, someone insisted on talking long and loud, cross-talking,
interupting,
etc. and when the chair said that this wasn't how we talked in meetings, the
person
produced a pistol. In the second instance, we had a shizophrenic who may or may
not have had a substance abuse problem, we could never tell if he'd even ever
taken
a drink or used a drug, but he did masturbate openly in the meetings. In both
cases,
the group had to balance the rights of one individual to attend meetings and
the
well being of the group. In both cases, the health of the group had to come
first --
here were situations where a group was unable to function to provide recovery
to
anyone because socially inapropriate and, in fact, illegal behaviors were
occuring.
No one can recover if a group keeps losing its meeting facility because it
allows illegal behavior to occur durring meetings. The common welfare of the
group
and the fellowship as a whole must take presedence over the welfare of the
individual. If that individual can be convinced to behave in an appropriate
manner,
then they are, of course, welcome to come and participate in recovery.

In our two cases, in the first instace the problem resolved itself because the
individual stopped coming but we were prepared to go as far as taking legal
action (filing a restraining order) to keep someone who threatened others with
firearms out of the meeting. In the second instance, the individual was living
in
a partially controlled situation and we took our concerns to his supervisor who
stopped allowing him to attend meetings until he could behave appropriately.

These are not easy issues and I hope you and your group are able to address
them
with love and concern and without blame.

--geoff



Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Anger and X's
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: alt
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 17:02:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.204653.21093@gumby.dsd.trw.com> suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com () writes:
>
>=====Begin post for Adria=====
>     But lately I've been jacked over by a lot of people including
>everyone at the car dealership which sold me a lemon (I've had it
>for 1 month, haven't been able to drive it for 2 weeks, and was
>turned away from the service department last night, subsequently
>got into an accident and was unable to communicate with anyone
>about this till this afternoon; my s.o. has been doing most of the
>mouthwork for me).
...
>     But this crap of having people yell at me, telling me that I
>don't deserve to have something that I paid for, telling me that
>what I bought and am holding under their nose is not what it says
>and that I didn't really buy it from them; *forcing* me to drive
>a seriously dangerous vehicle; telling me that because I am a female
>I do not know how to drive the car correctly or fill the gas tank
>just doesn't float.  And it is insane for anyone to tell me that I
>have no right to feel hurt by all these nasty words when I haven't
>even made the first payment on the car yet.  And it is insane for
>anyone to tell me that I have to put up with the car in it's present
>condition because I'm just making more work for them.  And it would
>be insane for me to sit in a corner and smile and say *gee, I guess
>you're right; it's okay for the car to stall in the middle of
>intersections, or on the road at any time it likes; and it's okay that
>I have been injured because it stalled but don't you worry about it,
>I'll keep it as it is.

Suggestion:  tell them either they fix it immediately, or they will be
hearing from your lawyer.  Then if they don't, find a lawyer.  You
don't have to put up with this crap.

-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)