HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Who are the best pitchers of our generation?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:05:10 GMT
Organization: Boo!  

In <BzI1J5.FC2@ecf.toronto.edu> hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW) writes:


>I was just flipping through Bill James' Baseball Book 1991 and stumbled
>accross a comment he made about who the best pitchers of this generation
>are.  Specifically, under his comments for Dave Stieb, he says that
>Clemens, Dave Stewart, Dwight Gooden, and Frank Viola are/were the best of
>this generation, while Stieb and Jack Morris would rank just behind those
>guys.  I was just wondering whether anyone here agrees or disagrees with
>this evaluation.  Who were/are the best pitchers of our generation?  Two
>years later, does James' statement still hold, or was he wrong to begin with?
>Obviously Clemens rates as the best pitcher of his generation, but are
>there any others that you would rate ahead of those guys?  Does anyone else
>besides me wonder who will be remembered as the best of this generation
>twenty years from now?

Well, Clemens is the best, by far.

The other names I would throw on a list include:
Greg Maddux
Jose Rijo
Bret Saberhagen      

This is a list of the only pitchers with a long track record of greatness.

As far as James list, I disagree with most of it.  Stewart got a lot of
run support and pitched in a pitchers's haven; his pitching, except for
1990, never struck me as great.  Gooden was the best pitcher on earth 
for a year and a half, but has never been better than good since.  Viola
is a bit close to being a great pitcher, but I don't think he's quite
there.  Morris was a good pitcher for a long period, but I don't think he
was ever great for a long period of time.  Steib is my favorite of the James
list; I think he was a great pitcher for a period of time.

Greg
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: My picks, AL/NL East
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:01:13 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <1992Dec19.182656.104136@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> cej0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHARLES EDWARD JAMES) writes:
>  I do have to disagree that Nokes IS awful.  If the Yanks plan on
>looking to him for some help on either offense or defense they might as well
>forget it now.  He will bat(if he's lucky) .240 and throw out about 30% of the
>runners on base.  

>OK, Alomar (compared to Nokes) is something special.  There aren't too many
>other catchers in the AL better than Alomar (judgement still out on Jays
>catcher (forget name)).  

Huh?  Nokes is one of the best hitting catchers in{the league, and Alomar has
been totally valueless the last 2 years, injured much of the time and
terrible the rest.  Let's compare:

                  OBP    SLG
Nokes - Career    .311   .442
Alomar - Career   .303   .359

Nokes - 1992      .293   .424
Alomar - 1992     .293   .324

Nokes - Prog 1993 .304   .433
Alomar - Proj 1993.303   .372

Nokes is a significantly better hitter than the average catcher, and 
Alomar, at this point, appears to be your basic no-hit catcher.  Of course,
Nokes is terrible defensively, and probably shouldn't even be playing the
position, but that's not my point.

Greg 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: joe carter and others
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:39:08 GMT

  I thought Id drop in on the "Two Rogers" for a minute:

> In <1992Dec13.172315.19846@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> 
> 
> >And, once again, your stupid, snotty remarks about "tabulating statistics"
> >miss the point entirely: baseball executives make their decisions based 
> >on such data, too, not on how you get off in the stands.  Unfortunately
> >they make a very bad job of it, partly due to prejudices about what makes
> >a good ballplayer.  Too bad that so few of them had the insight of Branch
> >Rickey.
> 
> Ah, the legend of Branch Rickey...one of these days I just might research
> some of Mr. Rickeys trades...

  According to Kevin Kerrane's fine book on scouting, Rickey's motto was 
"quality from quantity". The Cardinals in their heyday had a farm system 
with 32 minor league teams and 650 players. I don't doubt Rickey's 
pre-eminent status as a baseball mind, but you have to admit it's harder
when you don't have this kind of raw material to work with, and the
leverage that it gives you in trades and contracts.

-Darrell.
From: ism1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (IAN SETH MILLER)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: yanks/giants rumour, and signings.
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:26:06 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <Dec.14.16.09.23.1992.14899@pilot.njin.net>, gajarsky@pilot.njin.net
(Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:
>
>Rumoured trade - bam bam, silvestri, and pat kelly to the giants
> for matt williams.
>
>if true, robby thompson is gone from the giants, silvestri would go
> to the outfield (or bam bam would), and the giants would come out
> nicely. the yankees would, as well, since williams would give them
> a proven bat , and clear up the second base/shortstop mess.
>
What position does Williams play and what kind of numbers does he put up?
Silvestri is a shortstop and Muelens plays third.  He was pretty lousy in the
outfield although he was not much better at third.


>bob melvin signs 2 years with the red sox.  why???  eric wedge is
> ten times the player melvin is, at 1/10 the cost.
>
>mike bielecki signed a AAA contract with theindians.  how the mighty
> have fallen.
>
>boggs is down to the dodgers or yankees as his choice..- bob
>

I believe the Yankees offered a three year deal and the Dodgers a two year
with both offering an option year.  The Dodger deal offers more money per year
while the Yankees offer obviously more years.

   Ian
From: ddsokol@unix.amherst.edu (D. DANIEL SOKOL)
Subject: Re: All-Henderson Team;All-Jewish Team
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:57:38 GMT

Ted Frank (thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> In article <15DEC92.03193833@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes> 
> How about an all-Jewish team?
> 
> C: Moe Berg
All Star Catcher of the 1940's Harry Danning (.300 hitter 15 HR 90 rbi's a year
C Johnny Kling of the great Cub teams of the early 1900's.  Tinker, Evers, 
Chance and Kling
> 1B: Hank Greenberg
1B Mike Epstien
1B Phil Wientraub
> 2B: Rod Carew
2B Buddy Meyer-career .300 hitter, batting champ, best 2B of his era
> SS:
> 3B:
3B Al Rosen-He almost won the triple crown in 1963 I think.  We forgive him
for being GM of the Giants the last 3 years
> OF: John Lowenstein
Lowenstien actually isn't Jewish
Outfield:
Goodie Rosen
George Stone (batting champ)
Benny Kauff
Elliot Maddux
Richie Shienblum
DH Ron Blumberg (he was the first)
> P: Sandy Koufax
> P: Steve Stone
> P: Ken Holtzmann
P Ed Ruelbach
> 
> There have got to be others, that's just off the top of my head.
> 
> Okay, back to studying for exams...
> -- 
> ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
> standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
> the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637

Good luck with exams.
-Danny Sokol
Amherst College
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 19:34:14 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: all-maynard team.

the following is the twenty-five man roster for the 1993 all-maynard
team.  players were chosen by the number of teams that they have been
on which won the world series.  in the event of a tie, the player who
took the shortest amount of time to be on world champion teams was
chosen.  note: i did not require the players to have actually won a
world series ring.  the reason for this is simple: for example, you
cannot prove that the blue jays would have made it to the world series
without jeff kent, even though kent was traded away during the season,
and thus got no ring.

oh, by the way, anyone who appeared in a major league game in 1992
was eligible.  i apologize for any mistakes.

       starter            backup
       -------            ------
c      mike scioscia      jamie quirk
1b     kent hrbek         pedro guerrero
2b     steve sax          alfredo griffin
3b     jeff kent          tom quinlan
ss     al newman          greg gagne
lf     lonnie smith       dan gladden
cf     kirby puckett      howard johnson
rf     gene larkin        randy bush

pitching rotation:
               #1: jack morris
               #2: danny jackson
               #3: dave stewart
               #4: bob welch
               #5: bert blyleven

bullpen: closer: carl willis
          other: rick aguilera
                 randy myers
                 terry leach

the weak point of the team is clearly third base, where both kent and
quinlan have only one championship team membership apiece (everyone
else on the team has two, except for morris and smith, who have three).
however, kent produced his one membership in only one season, and quinlan
produced his in only two.  they are clearly young phenoms.

bob vesterman.
From: jeff@smoggy.gg.caltech.edu (Jeff Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: My picks, AL/NL East
Date: 18 Dec 1992 05:03:12 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
NNTP-Posting-Host: smoggy.gg.caltech.edu

In <Dec.17.22.27.04.1992.23983@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes:

>well, first off - japanese baseball, from all that we can tell,
> is roughly similar to AAA baseball - so he'd have a dropoff based
> simply on that.  It might even be lower than that, but I'm not sure.

I'm curious; where did you get that?  It is pretty clear that 
Japanese baseball is not as good as our Major leagues, but I
have never seen a study to identify just how much weaker it is.
Is it really AAA?  AA?  Between AA and AAA?  Between AAA and the
show?  My guess is the last, otherwise marginal major leaguers
would dominate much more than they do.  I don't remember Cecil
Fielder hitting 150 homers (or whatever) in Japan, and since he
seems to be able to hit 35 here, I'd bet he'd hit a lot in a 
real AAA league.  Anyway, this seems to be a subject fit for 
a careful analysis.  Has anyone done it?

>none of us *know* how miami will be for hitters.  however, the best
> hitting parks tend to be in those cities that are at higher altitudes.
> miami is reasonably close to sea level.  also, the miami minor
> league team, in its league, had the 3rd (out of 10 teams) lowest number
> of runs scored/against, which would lead me to believe that miami
> will be more of a picher's park than all nl parks other than houston
> and los angeles.

But, boy will Denver be a nice place to hit.  It's a mile in the air
and in a park that seriously favored the hitters in its minor league
(a few years ago; I don't have recent info.)  Again, can anyone get 
some recent data and make a good prediction?  It'd be a sabermetric
coup to predict that some Rocky will hit 40 homers (yeah, right) and
be right.
				--Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kimmel@staff.tc.umn.edu (Eric Kimmel)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Twins queries: Any news on Winfield? etc.
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:06:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: news2.1992Dec13.170637.17657
Organization: University of Minnesota

In article <1992Dec11.234616.3167@data-io.com> dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz) writes:
>Does anyone have a good rumor about pending signing of Dave 
>Winfield?  I have heard that both Kansas City and the Twins have
>been talking to him.  
 
I doubt it.  If the Twins couldn't come up with enough money to sign Smiley
or Gagne I doubt they will turn around and give the 3.5mil to Winfield.
I will admit that a Shane Mack/Kirby Puckett/Dave Winfield outfield looks
might good..

>Are the Twins going to be satisfied with keeping Puckett and losing 
>Gagne and Smiley?  Who is projected to replace Gagne?  Reboulet or 
>Leuis?  I saw Reboulet play in Seattle this year and was impressed
>with his defensive play, but his bat was hurtin'.

They've been talking about Leius at SS and Reboulet at 3B (w/Terry Jorgenson),
but I suppose anything could happen.  All 3 will make the team and only
Jorgenson can't play both positions.  I haven't been impressed with
Jorgenson.  I had heardthe rumor the Twins wanted Gaetti back...

>Any hot prospects in the minors?  McCarty I have heard about.  Anyone
>else?
>
McCarty will make the team if the Twins don't resign Larkin.  There's a few
pitchers that could make the team -- Trombley, for instance.  The pitching
staff looks a bit shaky right now:

SP:  Tapani, Erickson, Deshais and 2 of Banks/Mahomes/Trombley
RP:  Guthrie, Abbott, Willis, Aguilera, and that new guy from Philly

I can't remember if Trombley is a LHP.  If he is, he's pretty much the 
default for a starting position.  Banks and Mahomes are both on the
sh*t list.  Remember "Fast" Freddie Toliver?  Same thing, different
players.

>Win Twins!
>
It's gonna be a tough year.  The Twins should ahve kept Smiley and offered
$50mil to Maddux and dumped Puckett.  Twins have an above average offense,
but no pitching.  But you never know...

>Kent Dietz
>Twins in '93

-Rick
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz)
Subject: Re: Mattingly discussion, take 2.
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:26:01 GMT

I agree that Pat Kelly doesn't seem to have superstar potential. The
reason why the Yankees keep (and start) him is becuase he has superb
defensive abilities and he has speed. Oh, and the management is afraid
of trading him away and look stupid for letting him flouder in all of
those games last year. Really, though, if Kelly can hit at ALL, say .250,
(which is a stretch for him now) he would be a valuable asset (definately
NOT a superstar though)

-AEK
From: yankees@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Kenneth M Gelfand)
Subject: Help!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:05:00 GMT

	I seem to have lost the 800 # for StratoMatic.  I would appreciate
it if someone could email it to me ASAP.

					


					Thanks in advance,
						
					Kenny G
					yankees@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Brewers catching 1993
Summary: Who's it gonna be?  Does Nilsson have a chance?
Organization: Pitzer College
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:15:12 GMT

I've tried to reply to several inquiries for input, so you should feel duly 
guilty for not posting a reply to these inquiries herein:

1.  How in love with Surhoff is Garner?  Does Nilsson get to play more this 
season?  I still think Nilsson will hit for power, and with 400 ABs could be 
the next Chris Hoiles.

2.  What about Jaha, Brew-has?  I notice they saved him for the ROY 
competition for next season.  I say he has a helluva chance.

3.  How certain are we that HoJo will be a third baseman next season?  As a 
fantasy outfielder he'd be middle of the pack, but as a 3B, don't you think 
he'd be wunnerful wunnerful?

4.  Pirate fans, I *need* a fast update on the Zane Smith situation.  We 
draft in January, so I can't wait for spring training:  will he be ready for 
Opening Day?  Will he get that start?

This net has gone a little silent lately.  Now is the time to plot our 
strategies!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
From: tyeckley@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: help with ptp (computer version)
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:03:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.065703.24901@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, jmkerrig@vela.acs.oakland.edu (KERRIGAN JOHN M) writes:
> In article <92349.114519RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>>hey there.  i recently got ptp 4.00 (and, subsequently, the 4.03 upgrade),
>>and with it, the 1991 players' disk.
>>
>>i noticed that, on the player's screen, it doesn't really have lefty/righty
>>splits, it just has batting average vs. lefties and righties, and "power"
>>versus lefties and righties. 
> 
> [stuff deleted]
>>
>>then i noticed, in the rulebook, the following line, talking about the
>>"power" rating: "this rating is not used to determine the outcome of
>>any plays, but is for information purposes only."
> [stuff deleted]
>>
>>it's the same way for everybody.  at bats and hits vs. lefties and righties
>>are correct, but doubles, triples, homers, walks, and strikeouts are
>>all zero versus lefties, and, versus righties, equal to the sum of what the
>>player really did against both lefties and righties.
>>
>>so what's the scoop? does the computer somehow know the lefty/righty splits
>>anyway, or am i going to have to go through each and every player and
>>change his splits?  if the second is the case, i'm going to complain my
>>buttocks off to ptp.  i mean, i might as well not have got the players'
>>disk.  compared to the amount of time it will take to type in everyone's
>>splits... [stuff deleted]
>>
>>furthermore, no mention of this travesty was made in any advertisement.
>>they all implied a realistic game, which, needless to say, ptp is not,
>>if it thinks kevin maas hit 23 dingers against righties and none against
>>lefties.
>>
>>so, again, what's the scoop?
>>
>>bob vesterman.
>>
>>
> 
> I don't know the scoop, as I am currently in the market for a PC baseball
> game, but I am surprised by your remarks.  Most of the people who have
> responded to me concerning PTP (BTW thank you all very much!) have had
> good reactions to this game, although the people who responded to 
> Strat-O-Matic (thanks to you also!) made a much better case for that game.
> 
> Does anyone know if Strat suffers from this same problem, or does it deal
> with the lefty-righty split in a way much more similar to the way the
> card and dice version handles it (i.e. there is a difference)?
The stratomatic computer game handles the lefty-righty splits exactly the way
it does in the board/dice game. Which is to say that it is PRECISLEY the way
the player's performed against the lefties and righties in real life
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> **        John Kerrigan        a.k.a.  jmkerrig@vela.acs.oakland.edu        **
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Doctoral student, Biology, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:54:36 -0500 
From: "J. Anthony Graves" <jg4e+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: FANTASY LEAGUE

Hello everybody-
After having talked with my wife I have done some thinking and some
research.  Here is where things stand:
1) I think that the entrance fee (or franchise fee, if you prefer)
should be $50.  There are no hidden charges....just $50 for each year
that you want to play.  Again, once you hae a team in the league you
have it unless you can get someone to buy you out.  The reason for that
is if someone wants to quit it messes up the available players for
everyone else.
2) I have done some preliminary checking and the MOST we will pay for a
weekly stat service is $110 for the season.  Again that is the only
thing other than a jackpot for which the entrance fees will be used.
3) I do believe that you will need e-mail access for the baseball season
in order to play.  I feel that trades can be made by phone and in
person, but other transactions like putting someone on the disabled list
and picking up a free agent should be done by e-mail.  The reason for
this is I won't always be around when you need me and e-mail is a fair
way to see that in cases where the first person gets a player, the right
person gets him.  You of course don't have to be hovering over your
computer the entire season, but if you are gone for longer than a couple
weeks at a time, you should probably think twice about this.
4) In order to do this we will need 8 people.  I think that we have four
commitments at the moment.  Research has shown that with 8 teams the
ideal thing to do is to use all NL teams.  If we end up with 9 teams
then we should probably use the AL teams.  If we get 10-11 teams we
should pick 3 out of the 4 divisions, but if we get 12-16 we should use
the entire major league.  This is all subject to change based on your
opinions (as is the entrance fee...and really most everything else).
5) In terms of the game we play, I have gone back into some of my books
from last year and I think that the Front Office game is the best.  The
major advantage is that you don't get buried in a ton of numbers and
averages, but rather have one number.  I had previously said that with
this you can measure defensive numbers, but that was inaccurate.  Simply
put, you can't...but this is still the best way to play.  The categories
and point values are as follows: BATTING:
HR=5,3B=4,2B=3,1B=2,BB=1,SB=1,CS(caught stealing)=-2
PITCHING: W=5,SAVE=4,IP=4(EACH OUT=1.33),GAME
FINISHED=1,WALK=-1,HIT=-2,HOMER=-4
6) We would do the draft on the Saturday before baseball starts.  For
everyone that enters, I will provide a draft kit that will include a
list of all elligible players, rules, and player sheets so you can keep
a tally of your players.
7) Anyone that is still interested or those that are newly interested
drop me a line (jg4e) and I'll keep you posted on the number of people
that are playing.
Peace,
Tony Graves
Date: Monday, 14 Dec 1992 11:45:19 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
Subject: help with ptp (computer version)

hey there.  i recently got ptp 4.00 (and, subsequently, the 4.03 upgrade),
and with it, the 1991 players' disk.

i noticed that, on the player's screen, it doesn't really have lefty/righty
splits, it just has batting average vs. lefties and righties, and "power"
versus lefties and righties.  the first thing that popped into my mind was
"how does it know how often a player, say, walks against lefties?"

then i noticed, in the rulebook, the following line, talking about the
"power" rating: "this rating is not used to determine the outcome of
any plays, but is for information purposes only."  so then, i think,
"well, then how does it know how often a player homers against righties?"

then i remember seeing, under "creating new batters and pitchers",
that you can input stats from elias for a player with a certain
command.  so i pick a player (kevin maas), and i check out his stats.

in 1991, here's what kevin did:

       ab   h  d  t  hr  bb  so
vs.l  181  40  7  0   9  30  51
vs.r  319  70  7  1  14  53  77

and here's what the 1991 player's disk says he did:

       ab   h  d  t  hr  bb  so
vs.l  181  40  0  0   0   0   0
vs.r  319  70 14  1  23  83 128

it's the same way for everybody.  at bats and hits vs. lefties and righties
are correct, but doubles, triples, homers, walks, and strikeouts are
all zero versus lefties, and, versus righties, equal to the sum of what the
player really did against both lefties and righties.

so what's the scoop? does the computer somehow know the lefty/righty splits
anyway, or am i going to have to go through each and every player and
change his splits?  if the second is the case, i'm going to complain my
buttocks off to ptp.  i mean, i might as well not have got the players'
disk.  compared to the amount of time it will take to type in everyone's
splits, the amount of time it will take to type in names and such isn't
too much more.

furthermore, no mention of this travesty was made in any advertisement.
they all implied a realistic game, which, needless to say, ptp is not,
if it thinks kevin maas hit 23 dingers against righties and none against
lefties.

so, again, what's the scoop?

bob vesterman.