HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com (If you think software is complex, try relocating!  28-Aug-1992 1610)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: The New Colt AR15s
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:38:24 GMT

Check out Colt's advertising for the 7.62x39 Sporters.  Their target is
as an Eastern Deer Rifle where a round comparable to the .30/30 is both
legal and suitable.  With that target, the 5 round magazine is quite
suitable and reliable.  It is also a way to attack the "no sporting use"
arguments of the antis and help defend the design....
.............................................................................

Hal Berenson	

Home: 71640.3535@compuserve.com
Work: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com

-- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own, not my employer's! If
I happen to communicate with you from work rather than home, its just
for convenience (just like asking for a "daytime phone number") and should
not be construed as representing the views of my employer or its
employees, officers, directors, or stockholders. --
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Travelling Through States
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:03 GMT

I wouldn't consider Missouri transport laws with California.  It's
not that bad...

Open carry is legal in Missouri; concealed carry is not.

Case in point:  A few years ago, a man led police on a high-speed
chase in downtown St. Louis.  When the car was finally stopped (the
police shot out his tire), the police discovered a pistol laying
on the back seat.  The police didn't file weapons charges because
the gun was not concealed.

A sidenote though: this man was a member of a very prominent St. Louis
family - Busch, as in the beer....

Case #2:  A man was pulled over on suspicion of DUI.  When asked if
he had any weapons, he said he had a gun under the driver's seat.
The police said no weapons charges would be filed because the man told
them about the gun.

This was aired on FOX-TV's 'Cops.'


However, your safest bet in Missouri would be to follow the federal laws
regarding transport.


Someone told me that the city of East St. Louis, Illinois has made it
a violation to even transport any firearm through the city, whether it's
locked, disassembled, or anything.  I would think this would violate the
federal law.  Any comments?

(However, I think this is straying from the charter here...)

Rob
From: grant@bluemoon.rn.com (Grant DeLorean)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: computer name
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:08:42 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon

kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

#Hi again! I'm going to rename my SPARC II at work. I was thinking
#to use "springfield", because I have a S.A. 1911A1. But it turned
#out to be too long. It only accepts up to 8 character long. My second
#choice then went to "colt45".

#Before I make the changes, I would like to know what you guys have
#to say. Thanks. :)

 I'd say "check the maps" as I have colt45 hooked to my SPARC 2 now
(and it was hooked to my old 486 system too). Choose a unique name...
-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.rn.com)   /

   Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.  -- Euripides

[MODERATOR:  Well, it *would* be a unique name when you consider
the full extension.  So unless David also works at rn.com ....
BTW, concerning naming schemes:  the workstations I provide in my
group are given symbols according to a schitzoid arrangement. I
have things like "Xring" and "rimfire" based upon one hobby, and
also "bugs", "harvey", "thumper" etc based upon the other (okay,
we're in ARBA too, not just NRA).  Then there is the name that is
crossover between the two, "crosshare"..... :-) ]
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:22:40 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9208242221.aa29910@q2.ics.uci.edu> mplumlee@bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU (Michael A. Plumlee) writes:
#
#Well there are two reasons.  A sawed off is much easier to conceal on your
#person than a regular shotgun.  I believe the shortest legal barrel on a
#shotgun is 24 inches, (not sure though). Finally, the shorter
#the barrel the larger diameter of the spread when you shoot.  Basically
#you can cover a wider area with a sawed-off because the spread is so
#much larger.  One drawback is that with the larger spread the shot will
#have much less force when it hits the target, (especially at anything
#except short distances.)

The legal limits are 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall length. As
to pattern, it's common myth that short barrelled shotguns remove
the requirement for careful aim. If you pattern several shotguns
with varying barrel lengths and cylinder bore, you'll find that
they all put the shot in a 6 inch circle at 15 feet, even those
with barrels as short as 10 inches. So it isn't like the movies.
If you use special shells, you can get a bit more spread. Remington
used to offer a shell with cardboard spreaders and *square* shot.
But most modern plastic shells have tighter patterns than the older 
paper shells. Note that shot patterns at 40 yards, the normal pattern 
board distance, don't mean much for a weapon intended for close range 
work. Velocity does go down with reduced barrel length, but at 18 inches
it's still good and even at 10 inches it's adequate.

Shotguns used against large targets like men are normally loaded
with heavy shot like 00 buckshot or slugs. The few, or one, pellets
mean that good patterns are still full of holes and vary from shot
to shot. If light birdshot is used, effective range becomes very
short, under 15 feet, and most wounds will be nasty surface wounds
that may not stop the person.

Gary
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings...
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:42:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug25.135840.25348@cbnewse.cb.att.com> sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Steven R Faber) writes:
#Didn't think Bismuth was very toxic - you know Pepto Bismol and all.
#It is being suggested as an alternative to lead shot in shotguns.
#It is a constituent of various low melting point alloys.
#

Bismuth is not very toxic and is being tested for possible
waterfowl usage, a substitute for steel.  However, Bismuth was taken
out of Pepto-Bismol several years ago because of the effects
of Bismuth on humans (side-effects on some people, long term usage etc.)
Now, back to the real issue:  lead is a great bullet material because
it is dense, cheap, deformable and forms stable alloys.  Gold would
be even better if it were cheaper - just think, you could have heavy,
deformable bullets with great ballistic coefficients...

#Indium is a lot more expensive than Bismuth. Its so soft you can 
#squeeze it into foil by hand, and has a melting point so low your
#bullets would practically melt in your hand.
#
#
#
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:03:08 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Sep1.161520.18710@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#
##I don't know if the 'military' has, but I know at least one Vet who
##did...  His name was Terry something-or-other and we worked together
##some years ago.  His favorite thing to carry in the Vietname jungle
##was a double barrel 12 guage sawed off to about a 1-2 inch barrel.
#
#You mean 12 inch barrel?  A 2 inch would look mighty funny with the
#tips of the shells sticking out!	(^8.

No, I mean a one to two inch barrel.  That is, one to two inches past
the END OF THE CHAMBER...  

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:03:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep3.005219.21697@leela.cs.orst.edu> storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu (Mutant Wierdness) writes:
#
#
#I think the company that made them went out of business. You can find them 
#being liquidated by several mail order places. The Portland Police Bureau
#[portland, OR] wanted them for thier new "duty rounds". They were not allowed
#to buy and issue them because some city counselmen claimed that the name was
#racist. i.e. "Black" talon. IMHO yeah, right! he can shove it. They are
#GREAT rounds! They also lokk very impressive...
#
#-- 
#_______________________________________________________________________________
## storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu                                                  #
## storm@jacobs.cs.orst.edu               Disclaimer: I will deny everything   #
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe Winchester makes these rounds, and think it's highly unlikely that
they've gone out of business.  These rounds have actually just recently
(relatively) become available around here...


-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:16 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Sep2.224223.23067@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
#
##In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
##my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
##me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the
#
#What kind of vel can you get out a 22 mag with one of those short
#barreled things?   I would go for the heaviest JHP I could find
#for that use.  I've seen 50 gr, I don't know about 55 gr.
#
#Would the .22 mag be appreciably better than .22 LR stingers out
#of the same size gun?

A question: does the word "stingers" just imply a hot load? I've seen this word
a couple of times and have never seen the defintion.

BTW, on this subject, I bought a Baretta 21a (22LR) the other day for those
times when I wouldn't otherwise carry. It is very nice, but I have two
problems with it and thought I should relate these to
anyone else who is thinking of buying one:

1. It needs very hot loads to work properly. The Federal High Velocity ammo
I originally tried just didn't work. Cases wouldn't eject, new rounds wouldn't
feed, a major mess. I now have Winchester Wildcats and they work great; 150
rounds and no failures.

2. It's impossible to sight against a dark background. I'm going to have
to mark the front sight orange or something.

On the whole a nice pocket gun; it was, though, quite the nice suprise to pick
up my Glock 23 and run a few rounds through it after shooting the Baretta.
***BANG*** instead of ***POP*** :)

	...Dave


Xref: sparky rec.guns:12585 talk.politics.guns:20471
From: tpehrson@javelin.sim.es.com (tim clinkenpeel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: "guns used more on owners than on burglars"
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:05:06 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation

recently i was having a gun debate with my brother-in-law; i want to acquire
one for fun/protection and he throws the old "guns are used more on their
owners than on assailants" line at me.  from previous discussions on usenet, i
was led to believe that this was a bogus result of a flawed, outdated study.
could someone please offer some insight into this topic, preferrably in the
form of citing references and/or statistics?

-- 
\clinkenpeel: aberrant analytical cynical agnostic idealist.  i exclusively /
/represent myself.  i do not offend anyone; however, some morons choose to  \
\offend themselves.  judge only those who you would have judge yourself.  i /
/don't practice what i preach - i'm not the type of person i'm preaching to.\
From: msc9203@geovax.edinburgh.ac.uk (C.A.Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 13mm Mauser T-gewer
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:20:41 GMT
Organization: University of Edinburgh, Geography Department.


 
#  PMC sells newely manufactured reloadable 50 Browning ammo and there are 
# several sources for 50 cal reloading components.

On a contiuing note for .50 cal ammo, Atlanta Discount Ammo also had some
Dominican Republic .50 Cal AP ammo a while back for $1.00 per round.  Just 
in case you want to shoot something armored.

Craig
From: sean@cae.wisc.edu (Sean Rutledge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Rifled Shotgun Chokes
Date: 30 Aug 92 14:09:16 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering

I was wondering what a rifled shotgun choke would do to the pattern
of shot.  Wouldn't the rifling add a spin to the shot making a 
larger pattern?  If so, would this be something good to use for a
home defense shotgun?


sean rutledge                              murphy was an optimist!!!
sean@cae.wisc.edu
From: lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas System CHPC

In article <1992Aug25.141601.15299@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

# And another question, I have an S&W 25-5 (Long Colt).  If I get
# some "full moon" clips, can I fire .45 acps in it? 


Nope.  The .45 ACP model (25-2?) uses a shorter cylinder to provide the
necessary clearance for the clips, they won't fit in the Long Colt version.

I have heard tell that some time back Smith made a special edition Model 25
which came with two cylinders, each on its own crane, one for .45 Colt and
one for ACP.  Anybody ever seen one of these?


-- 
Tom Linsley              tom@sparta.bus.utexas.edu  :  NRA  ILA  TSRA
College of Business Administration Computer Center  :  NFA     CCRKBA
The University of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712   USA  :  (512) 471-5446
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What's the best pocket-sized gun?
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:59 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

infmx!jupiter.noname!bobd@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Dodge) writes:
# One question I have along these lines involves the most effective caliber 
# for this type of weapon.  .22 doesn't seem like much.  From what I have 
# seen, the .25 Auto round looks like it would just irritate someone.  How
# effective are the .380 and .32 rounds I saw mentioned.

The .380 ACP is about up to par with a .38 special in terms of stopping
power if you read the statistics.  I personally wouldn't carry anything
smaller than a .380 ACP.  I'd feel better with a 9mm though.  There are
some very concealable 9mm pistols out there.  However, if you want a
backup to the 9mm, I'd choose a 9mm snub-nosed revolver.

# If (God forbid) I should ever need one of these,  I am going to be fearing
# for my life,  and I wouldn't want to have the to worry about someone getting
# up and putting the barrel of the weapon up my butt after it was empty.

That's where shot placement becomes an important factor.  Consider the
range that pocket pistols are normally used at.  Accuracy becomes less
of a concern and reliability becomes the key factor in choosing.

# I really would like to hear some opinions on this.  I have considered a 
# pocket gun for a while, but always assumed I would have more knock down 
# power with a good rock.  

There's no magical calibre out there.  If you're good, you can drop
someone with a .22 LR.  The Israelis have used .22 LR pistols with great
success.  If I was looking for something for deep concealment, I'd
probably choose the Seacamp LWS-32 if I could find one.  For a .380 ACP
backup pistol, I'd probably choose a Beretta 86.

You can also get some nasty derringers.  American Derringer makes one
that is chambered .410 GA and .45 Long Colt.  A wicked pocket gun.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : crash!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@crash.cts.com  |
 ** UUCP    : crash!jca          |           SIG-Sauer P228
 */
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:12:06 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

#In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
#my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
#me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the

What kind of vel can you get out a 22 mag with one of those short
barreled things?   I would go for the heaviest JHP I could find
for that use.  I've seen 50 gr, I don't know about 55 gr.

Would the .22 mag be appreciably better than .22 LR stingers out
of the same size gun?
From: fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS 30 round magazines; Legal?
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:10:36 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

In article <92242.091037RICH@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> RICH%wvnvm.wvnet.edu@VM1.gatech.edu (Richard E. Lynch) writes:
#Could someone tell me, for sure, if 30 round magazines installed on SKS
#rifles are legal or not?  We have been discussing this at work and the
#opinions vary.  There doesn't seem to be any problems in purchasing them.
#However, I seem to remember someone saying that this was made illegal by
#Bush's importation ban. 

As far as I know, the importation ban only applys to importing the weapon:
If it is already in the country there shouldn't be a problem. I 
believe a 30 round magazine on a SKS is legal under federal laws, but I
have no idea about local or state laws.

						    Frank Crary
						    CU Boulder

(By the way, does anyone know how to get a usenet feed here at
Boulder? My new account is on pprince, which doesn't seem to accept
news commands. Remote logins to my old Berkeley account are getting to
be a pain...)
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:08:03 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <11931@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#
#In article <1992Aug24.224445.20992@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, tas@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tom Sprott) writes:
## I'm not a rec.guns reader, but the news story of Mr. Weaver (the fugitive holed
## up in Idaho) has made me curious about something.  His original federal weapons law
## violation was the possession of a sawed-off shotgun.  What is the purpose of 
## such a gun, and why is it illegal where a normal shotgun isn't?
## 
## Tom Sprott, tas@inmet.inmet.com
#
#The purpose of such a gun is to kill at short range, especially under
#conditions where careful aim isn't possible.  This can be legitimate
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

#(such shotguns are used by the U.S. Marshall's Service for protecting
#witnesses from professional hit men) or illegitimate (armed robbery
#with such weapons is pretty common).

	Sigh. You've bought into the myth that got them banned in the
	first place. Take your cylinder bore (ie your non-rifled slub
	barrel or 'riot' barrel) with any shotshell you care to use
	and pattern it. Put up a 4'x'4 sheet of paper and fire a
	round at it from 6 feet. You will get a ~2-4" hole. At
	10 yards, the pattern is somewhere between 10-20". Yes, Virginia,
	you still have to aim.

	Just think about it: If you 'don't have to aim' that means the
	shot pattern size is much larger than your mean unaimed error,
	ie ~ 6-10' at 25 yards. if the pattern is 6-10' in diameter, the
	shot density is too low to do any good even if you don't jerk
	the trigger and miss.

	You can't have both: deadly and 'dont' need to aim' are mutually
	exclusive. 

*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: joan%koala.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:38 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley


#Question to the net.  Has this happened to you or has this happened directly
#to anybody you know?  Friend of a friend, overheard at the range, etc. doesn't
#count.

	Years ago, around 1976-79, this happened to a friend.
He was stopped right after leaving the range and charged with
carrying a concealed weapon, I believe, or something gun-related, anyway.
I don't recall if the gun was confiscated.  His wife went to the police
department and talked them into dropping the charges.  I heard the same
story from both of them, separately.  The husband was very surprised that
his wife was able to get the charges dropped.  They both thought that
the reason for the car being pulled over in the first place was that
the husband had long hair.

Joan V
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings...
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:35 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Aug25.035251.2201@athena.mit.edu> sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman) writes:
}In article <9208250156.AA22098@relay1.UU.NET> chuckh@apex.com 
}(Chuck Huffington) writes:
}#In article <71502@apple.Apple.COM> ems@Apple.COM (Mike Smith) writes:
}##I was pondering the statement that Fiocci had non-Lead primers ....
}#
}#Bismuth is toxic.  
}
}Bismuth may be toxic, but it is much less so than lead. ...

When I was an acne plagued kid my dermatologist used to give me bismuth
compounds (bistrimate) in pill form.  Later he could measure how much I
was excreting through skin pores.

I'm still here, so it can't be all _that_ toxic.

(Followups to sci.med? (-: )

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: jimf@iwtdr.att.com (James R Fehrenbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 12 gauge semi autos
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:09:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T


I just bought a Mossberg 5500 MKII with 26 in barrel.
Love the way it feels and shoots - shot about 120
clay targets this weekend, but BUT

I found out that when I load 3 shells in it, it jammed
about 1/2 the time. (With 2 shells it never jammed.)
It ejected the first shell, but seems like the 3rd shell
came out of the magazine too early and logjammed the 2nd
before it got pushed up into the barrel. I was shooting
Federal dove loads - fairly cheap shells with a standard
powder charge (3 1/4 dram eq.) and #8 shot.

Any advice? Is the gun defective? lousy shells? should I
take it back and get an 11-87 Remington, which doesn't
feel as comfortable but has a great reputation? Will the
11-87 shoot and not jam on target loads (2 3/4 dram eq)?
Thanks.

BTW, I bought the $30 Outers clay target thrower at
Walmart, which worked great. Went in the ground easily
(3 spikes), threw doubles fine although it broke a few
at first until I lowered the spring tension. I was very
pleased with it.  The spikes loosen up after a bunch of
throws - the ground was fairly soft.