From: ygu@balboa.eng.uci.edu (Yifan Gu)
Subject: Re: when china wakes
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 2 Jan 93 08:00:04 GMT
Distribution: soc

 "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com> writes:
>Please read the following, which was collected from CCP's own
>statistics:

>During 1959-1961, the wide spread starvation in Chinese rural villages
>were caused by "Zong1 lu4 xian4" (collective policy?),"Da4 yue2 jin4"
>(great leap forward), "Ren2 min2 gong1 she4" (people's commune); the
>so called "San1 mian4 hong2 qi2" (three red flags).

>In the seventies, CCP's propaganda apparatus acknowledged that the death
>caused by starvation in that three years were 12-15 million. There was a
>census year book published inside China during 1984, recorded the death
>caused by 3 years famine were 27 million. Internationally acclaimed
>Chinese writer Gu3 Hua1 learned, that in 1980, CCP's party secretaries
>from 29 provinces and cities had a study session, the estimate by these
>senior party officials of the CCP put the death figure to 50-60 million,
>although this last figure was not official published, we can have a pretty
>good picture on CCP's record of mismanagement, and CCP's contempt to human
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>life!
 ^^^^

>The number of Chinese people died of starvation caused by Mao's
                                                           ^^^^^
>wrong policies, far exceeds the thousands, it was in many millions.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 50 -60 million is undoubtedly untrustwoorthy.  27 million has never 
appeared in history books, written by American historians, that I read.

You blame CCP for the disaster, and then you said it was the fault
of Mao'policies.

I am not sure if you realize that the policies were not the intentions 
of the majority of the high level party members at the time. The policies 
were adopted because Mao revealed them to the public before the concensus
on different policies was reached within high level party members.

That was the reason why Mao later "retreated to the second line", 
because his mistake in directly appealing to people outside.

Direct appealing to people in the name of democracy seems to be a frequent
tactic that politicians use for thier purposes. Example:

Boris Yelsen reacently did so when he was on the side of minority in the 
congress.
 
Mr. Pattern was doing the same in HongKong.

>The CCP had for many years, deceived the Chinese people and the world,
>blame the hardship during that period, first to the "extraordinary
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>natural disaster" (Does that sounds familiar?), than it blamed to
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Russia's demand for debt payment.
 ^^^^^^              ^^^^

These are true and part of the reason for the tragedy.
The ill effects of the bad policies were buried for the time being
and revealed until later. 
  

>Can you tell me, should Chinese people thank Mao for all these?

Not for these. But many chinese are thanking Mao, genuinely, for
something.


>Maybe you would like to tell the netters, what is your view about the
>following events?

>Copied from the Guinness Multimedia Disc of Records without permission.

>Copyright (c) 1992 by Compton's NewMedia


>China
>The greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    
>sovereign nation against the government of another is that of 26.3
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^       
>million Chinese during the regime of Mao Zedong between 1949 and
>May 1965. This accusation was made by an agency of the USSR
>government in a radio broadcast on 7 April 1969. The broadcast
>broke down the figure into four periods: 2.8 million (1949-52); 3.5
>million (1953-7); 6.7 million (1958-60); and 13.3 million (1961-May
>1965).

Can you explain how this phrase fits into the rest of the passage.
Also, this was a time when USSR had the most serious military clash 
with CCP's China over border dispute. 


>Let's have a look at the following report, how is the Chinese peasant
>in today's China, showing their support to the CCP....

>A not so recent true story (One year old):

>in the prefecture of Hong2 An1, which used to be a strong base for
>the old red army, the hometown of more than 20 some PLA's generals. One
>day, the secretary of local CCP's branch and his car was driven into the
>river by accident, the local peasants were arranging the rescue operation,
>but after they learned the identity of the accident victim, they all gave
>up the rescue effort , and simply walked away, saying "for the god damn
>CCP, let the SOB drawn!".

I seriously doubt the truthfulness of this storry. I have never in my
life seen a peasant who would use the word "GOD DAMN" in China. Are you
talking about a British peasant in China?


>We should know a fact, in just slightly over half century ago, the last
>generation of these same peasants, who enthusiastically sent their
>own sons and daughters to join the old red army, willing to sacrifice their
>own "blood and flesh" for a better tomorrow for China, and today, they
>refuse to save a CCP's cadre! What this tells you? Need I say more?  :-)

It is true that the "popularity" of CCP today in China can not compare 
once it was. But your tale is an bad example.
 
The following paragrph interests me, I wonder who wrote it.

>>> *** Without the freedom of speech and true election , How can you be so
>>>    sure?  Even most Chinese People you run into support it , are you
>>>    really sure they will support it after listening to the debate between
>>>    pros and cons? I believe in the 60s most of the people in mainland
>>>    China supported Cultural Revolution , don't they?

They not only supported it, they participated in it. Almost 100% of city and 
Town people (over age 13) did participate because, guess what, they had
"freedom of speech"!  Don't be surprised!  The chinese paraphrase for
"freedom of speech" at the time was "Da Ming, Da Fong, Da Zhi Boa, 
Da Bian Leng" (sorry, I forgot Pin Yin already). It roughly means that
"let all the opinions be heared, let your piece of mind be given 
to others, use big posters, and let us have big debates". It was a
really big "democracy". And the result was violence. 



>The CCP itself is becoming the true shameless one who would do anything
>for money!

>Do you want evidence on how those CCP's cadres robbing today's China?

Yeah ! Just make sure they are not lies. I don't have time for those.

You seem to have a lot of "anguish" yourself. I wonder if you or your
relatives have been "anguished" by CCP or Mao. Have you ever lived in
mainland, say, for a month?

 Happy New Year!