From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: No wonder the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people shames "visserian".
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 21:57:17 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <visser.724534067@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

>	If you wish to stand in for Argic the coward and answer questions
>about his sources he dares not answer, then please respond to the following
>which Argic has kept silent about:

No wonder people call you a "pathological liar". So the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people shames you. Are you in charge of the laundry
at "ASALA/SDPA/ARF"?



<1992Dec15.042225.18169@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)

>>Your inability to distinguish between the Turkish Genocide in Eastern 
>>Anatolia (see McCarthy) and the Turkish Genocide in x-Soviet Armenia 
>>(see Hovannisian) is truly amazing. 

>I wrote:
>>>Please review the figures in the book, particularly Table 7.10.  You will
>>>find that the figure he gives for the population loss in the six eastern 
>>>provinces is 1,040,376, not 2.5 million.  

>>Mr Argic writes:
>>>How quaint. How about Sivas? How about Trabzon? How about Adana? How about 
>>>the entire Muslim population of x-Soviet Armenia?

>The six eastern provinces are, of course, Van, Bitlis, Erzurum, Diyarbakir,
>Mamuretuelaziz, and Sivas.  So how about Sivas?  It is included.

Couldn't let this joke go by. You obviously only listened to half of the
story, and then cut out when you didn't like it. How about Adana? How
about Haleb? How about Aydin? How about Konya? How about Trabzon? How
about the entire Muslim population of x-Soviet Armenia? How about...

Source: Table 3.23.  
Source: Page 79 (The Other Provinces). 

And even the Armenian representative in the Ottoman Parliament for 
Van, Papazyan, soon turned out to be an Armenian genocide squad 
leader, publishing a proclamation that:

 "The volunteer Armenian regiments in the Caucasus should prepare
  themselves for battle, serve as advance units for the Russian armies
  to help them capture the key positions in the districts where the
  Armenians live, advance into Anatolia, joining the Armenian units 
  already there and exterminate the Muslims."

As the Russian forces advanced into Ottoman territory in eastern Anatolia,
they were led by advanced units composed of Ottoman and Russian Armenian
genocide squads, who were joined by the Armenians who deserted the Ottoman
armies and went over to the Russians. Within a few months after the war
began, these Armenian genocide squads, operating in close coordination
with the Russians, were savagely attacking Turkish and Kurdish cities,
towns and villages in the East, massacring their inhabitants without
mercy, while at the same time working to sabotage the Ottoman army's
war effort by destroying roads and bridges, raiding caravans, and 
doing whatever else they could to exterminate the entire Muslim 
population of the Eastern Anatolia and to ease the Russian occupation.

Nor did these Armenian atrocities affect only Turks and other Muslims.
The Armenian genocide squads had never been happy with the failure 
of the Jews to fully support their genocide programs. As a result in
Hakkari and vicinity they slaughtered thousands of Jews.[1]

[1] Schemsi Kara, "Turcs et Armeniens devant l'Histoire," Geneva,
    Imprimerie Nationale, 1919, p. 41 and p. 49.

>McCarthy estimated the population loss for Adana and Trabzon as 92,418.
>McCarthy includes the losses for Trabzon in his comparison of Greek
>and Muslim losses (Table 7.13), so I followed his lead in placing them
>in the context of the Greek/Muslim intercommunal strife.  

Given your beliefs, I think it's extremely enlightened of you to be
able to make this distinction. What is more, the activities of the 
Armenian revolutionaries seem to have been efforts aimed at eradicating 
a race (the Turks) or aimed at carrying out a one-sided feud, instead of 
being a struggle for liberation. From the outset, the efforts of the 
Armenian revolutionaries within the Ottoman borders took the form of 
terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder, cruelty and 
genocide, so that no other interpretation of them is possible. Armenian
activities started during the reign of Abdulhamid II as individual acts of
terror, and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks. The element
of brute force in these activities increased steadily, culminating in mass
rebellions and widespread fighting during the First World War. Furthermore,
when the Ottoman army withdrew from Eastern Anatolia after the 1915 Sarikamis
defeat, Armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area.
Although the Russians occupied Eastern Anatolia as an enemy, nevertheless they
were constrained by the rules of war. However, when they returned to their
country in 1917 after the Revolution, Armenian revolutionaries were unchecked
in this area for about a year until the Ottoman forces returned to Erzurum
in 1918. During this period, Armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on
the local people which is recorded in historical documents.[1]

For example, let us look at a report dated 21 March 1918 which the Commander
of the Third Army submitted when he entered Erzurum and Erzincan: "They were
completely and systematically destroyed and burned down by Armenians,
even the trees were cut down, and they are like a building entirely
consumed by fire in every sense of the word." As for the people who
had been living in Erzurum and Erzincan:

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."[2]
 
Foreign observers who witnessed the events, including Russian Officers
who did not desert their lines, submitted detailed reports proving the
genocide to Ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war.
What is most important is that they stated in their reports 'the 
massacres did not happen by chance but were planned.'[3]

At the end of the war, the German author Dr. Weiss, his Austrian colleague
Dr. Stein and his Turkish colleague Mr. Ahmet Vefik visited Trabzon, Kars,
Erzurum and Batum between April 17th and May 20th 1918 to record the
cruelties. Their writings not only show the scope of Armenian activities,
but also reveal their goal and true nature.[4]

[1] (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
    Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). The French
    version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens sur
    la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
    Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
    1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
    1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
    Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
    (December 1983), document numbered 1881.
[2] "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
    numbered 1869.
[3] From Twerdo-Khlebof's report dated 29 April 1918; quoted in Ermeniler ...,
    Vol. 2, p. 275.
[4] A. R. (Altinay), "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919), and, "Kafkas
    Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler" (Istanbul, 1919).

                     (to be continued...)




<1992Dec15.042225.18169@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)

>I assumed that the fighting (est. pop. loss 42,511) in Adana, was likewise 
>attributable to Greek/Muslim strife.  McCarthy does not say.  Are you saying 
>that this was an area of Armenian/Muslim fighting?

Precisely.

1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri: 
   Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S., 
   Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian 
   Question in Turkey")

2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.

3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
   Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
   Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970. 

>So how about the Muslim population of x-Russian Armenia? (The war preceded
>the establishment of the Soviet Union, eh?)

You make me laugh. Are you for real? 

By Rachel A. Bortnick 

"A more appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the 
 independent republic of Armenia (which lasted from 1918 to 1921),
 which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that
 republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated 
 in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.

>To justify your figure of 2.5 million Muslim deaths, you are apparently 
>saying that 1.4 million Muslims were killed by Armenians in Russian
>Armenia.  This is what you are saying, right?  (Do the Russians and

I don't have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you refer.
Is this an explicit statement by some document? Or is it your usual
interpretation of statements in such literature? A fascinating piece
of analysis.

>Georgians get any blame?)  Do you have any figures that indicate this
>population loss? You quote Hovannisian as saying that the Muslim population 
>across Transcaucasia in 1886 was 2,220,000, but this region includes 
>Azerbijan.  Hovannisian notes a block of 370,000 Tartars in the districts
>between Erevan and Persia.  You simply add ``In 1920, '0' percent Turk.''
>Do you mean that these 370,000 Tartars had been killed or driven away, or 

There is no point arguing about easily verified facts. 

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

>the entire Muslim population of Transcaucasia?  Obviously you cannot
>mean the latter, since Azerbaijan was still predominantly Turk in 1920.

Again, your inability to distinguish between "Tartars" and "Turks" is 
incredible. 

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

As for the area...

".................................. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.

"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
 as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
 of the Tartar population." 

Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.

  This three-day massacre is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and 
  20,000 Turks, old people, women and children lost their lives.

Source: K. Gurun, "The Armenian File," (London, Nicosia, Istanbul, 1985).

"Many Muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of Armenian troops
 armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the
 people.....According to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have
 been destroyed...young Muslim women have been taken to Kars and Gumru,
 hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were
 beaten and killed in the mountains..."

Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant,"
vol. 1, p. 122.

 "They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
  measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
  retreat from Marash."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Need I go on?

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)