Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:12:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

In a message of Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:32:09 -0400
Received on Wed, 30 Sep 92 13:36 N
Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> wrote:

> Would he be granted access into heaven? Yes -- but nothing impure or
> unclean can enter heaven.  Claiming Christ's sacrifice over our sins
> obviously does not purify our souls -- we still are rebellious, we still
> suffer passions of the flesh, we still have an old man of sin who
> entices us to sin.  Do you deny that?

No.

> Do you further

No. :-)

> deny that that
> impurity, that imperfection, can enter the presence of God?

No.

> How do you
> suppose we get from this impure state we are in to a state of real
> holiness required to enter the presence of God?  If you reply, well,
> Christ's sacrifice purifies us. I would then reply, then why do we still
> have those imperfections?  If we're already purified, why do we still do
> impure things?

Why, if you wash a little child it is clean until it hits the next
puddle. Doesn't the Bible tell us that we * are * holy and pure and
sanctified in God's eyes? But we still have that old nature in us. When
will that nature be removed from us? - In purgatory???

> If we, in our impurity, attempt to enter the full presence of the
> all-holy God, would not all unholiness in us instantly be burned off by
> the all-consuming fire of God?

I won't arrive there impure, because I have washed my garments in the
blood of the Lamb! And I won't arrive there unholy, because I have been
sanctified through the Spirit by water - not through purgatory:

EPH 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of
 water by the word,
EPH 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church,
 not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should
 be holy and without blemish.

ROM 15:16  That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the
 Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of
 the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy
 Ghost.

> I need my concordance, there are a large number of them.  I don't have
> my concordance at work, as soon as I have time at home I'll look them up.

I'm looking forward to it.

> > > We  reap what we sow, we will be repaid according to our works, forgivenes
s
> > > or no!
>
> > But this does not require purgatory! A simple reward system will do.
>
> Rewards can be either good or bad.  Besides, we cannot judge what's the
> best way to handle this; God does what he wills.

I was not judging which way would be best. I just tried to show that the
demand for a harvest of our deeds does  * not *  require purgatory. So
if you want to 'prove' the existence of purgatory by showing that we
will reap what we have sown you will arrive nowhere.

> What happens if someone dies before these (necessary) sufferings take
> place?

Well, I presume, since he died before these sufferings took place they
were not necessary. (cf. the discussion about death penalty)

> How can God forgive these sins which are not repented of?  Scripture
> teaches that we must repent of our sins in order to be forgiven.  God's
> justice demands that man be punished for his sins, and only repentance
> and forgiveness can bring cleansing of that sin by the blood of the
> sacrifice of Christ.  Yet this person stubbornly refused to repent in a
> few areas. Does he --
>
> 1) Enter heaven?  But he has sins that are not covered by the blood of
> Jesus -- remember, all sin leads to death, and the justice of God
> demands that we be condemned for any sin whatsoever.

I am not God - surprised? :-) But I would suspect that either the blood
of Jesus covers the sins although they are not repented of (alike to
what you call inculpable ignorance) or the blood of Jesus doesn't cover
them then he would

> 2) Enter Hell?  But is this just? Do we need to fear all unrepented
> sin?

God is just! So I believe that we need not fear for our salvation if
there is sin that we did not confess by naming it, but I think we might
have to fear if we resist the Holy Spirit when He admonishes us to
repent.

> Tell me how a person can enter Heaven with sins that are not "covered"
> by the blood of Christ.

He/she simply can't. But purgatory won't remove them either or do you
believe that there are some sins for which the blood of Jesus is not
necessary?

Wolfgang <><
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