HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: A reply to xpeng's attack
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:05:50 GMT

In article <Btxps1.KKI@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>From:	IN%"xpeng@Athena.MIT.EDU"  1-SEP-1992 21:10
>
>	To clear my name and avoid further personal attack, I have to reveal
>some of my previous activities so you could judge whether I am qualified to
>call myself a demcracy-fighter:
>	In 1986 students movement, I was the first guy in the whole movement
>who stood up to call students to demonstate in the street. When: Dec.4,1986.
>Where: School hall of USTC (KeDa), Hefei. Audience: almost all KeDa people.
>I was also a major organizer of the first demonstation in the 86 movement
>which was held on Dec.5,1986 in Hefei, Anhui, and a major dialogue
>representative to have dialogue with officers held in the Anhui provincial
>headquarter at the same day.
>
>William Deng

Your personal history tells nothing in clearing your name. You are not
a sincere person. You seem to have no belief, an opportunitist. Many
people participated some progressive movement in his youth. The question
is can a person retain his sense of justice throughout his life.

Wang Jinwei was a communist, a nationalist and finally a pupet of
Japenese.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: liu9yong@athena.mit.edu ()
Subject: Re: Shameful Speculations
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:42:17 GMT

In article <Bu0IFA.Co6@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.032416.28929@athena.mit.edu> liu9yong@athena.mit.edu () writes:
>>
>>What purposes does Shen Tong's China trip serve?
>>A. setup a fund for China democracy
>>B. embarrase Chinese government
>>C. visit family
>>D. improve Chinese' human rights conditions
>>E. improve China's economic conditions
>>F. become more famous himself
>>G. help push "protection bill"
>>H. serve some "special interest" group
>>I. others (please name it)
>>
>>liu9yong@athena.mit.edu
>
>I see none of above as an violent action aiming at overturning the
>government. It does not make sense to me to arrest him, regardless
>right or wrong for what he was trying to do (different people have
>different opinion to different things).
>

I agree with you. I also think CG's arresting Shen Tong IS wrong just as it is
wrong to crash the 89 students movement.

Haven't we agreed on that if 89 had been better planned, it would have produced
better results? Well, it is to this end (what will result) that I am qestioning
ST's act.

I really don't see a clear (good) purposes of it and would like to be 
enlightened.
From: zhang@BUAST7.BU.EDU (Zhang Yun Fei)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Sun Zhong-Shan, Shen Tong, Wong Jin-Wei and others...
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:16:25 GMT
Reply-To: Zhang Yun Fei <zhang@BUAST7.BU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University

As many netter pointed out, the basic question we are facing now is should
we, oversee CSS, protest the arrest of ST and others by CG. However, a few
fellows here are keeping argue the timing, the publicity and even the
outcome of U.S. election affected by ST (wow, he is really a powerful guy:-)

I am glad to see the consensus here over the net is that we should protest
the CG's arresting of ST and other dissents, as Lix repeated in his latest
post on the net. Therefore, we might want to ignore our "dear" William Deng,
T. Bao and their comrades, at least for the time being, and start our actions.

As for the various dirty inside stories revealled by quite a few knowledgeable
netters, IMO, we should let ST deal with it after he would be released from
this illegal arrest. As at this stage, I do not think we are having means to
verifying those resourceful stories. An exception might be the "video tape"
story, we may want to at least to assume those alleged "vedio tapes" do exist
and plan our reaction accordingly as it is related to the safty of people.
(sorry, dear William Deng, I used the word "plan":-)

Quote Lix as saying:
>
>I heartfully agree with those HK friends. I appeal IFCSS to pay more attention
>to those on video tape and disketts. International pressure should make
>Chinese Government promise:
>
>No Punishment, No Investigation to those on tape.

Very thoughtful. We need to device ways to implement it. As we only know
three names of those being arrested. An obvious identification system might
be to say:

No Punishment, No Investigation to ST and those on ST's tape.

Therefore, we have no way to avoid the name of ST, should we?

Yun Fei Zhang
From: stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU (Ye)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: (none)
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:38:37 GMT
Reply-To: Ye <stacc0@QUANTUM.FIU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Just heard from the radio: a gunman holds some hostage at a K-mart store.
Then there is this young man who decided to walk into the store and slap
that gunman's face. Outside of the store, well beyond safe distance of
possible gun shots, a group of stupid people are debating whether this
young man is trigger-happy or heroic.

Yah, surely stupid.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xc17@quads.uchicago.edu (xiaoyong  chai)
Subject: Re: Shameful Speculations
Reply-To: xc17@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:10:40 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.224632.18793@unixg.ubc.ca> wangf@unixg.ubc.ca (Frank Wang) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.161935.20977@midway.uchicago.edu> xc17@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>   He is NOT guilty, period!
>>
>
>He is right but not proper.  The students were right in 1989 action
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>but not proper.  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just like what a netter has pointed out, some people just cannot 
help pretending being "cool".  Who has the authority do define proper?
Do you happen to insinuate that students deserve to be killed for their
improperiaty? Why do I get the feeling that the butchers themselves are 
saying just that.

This "improperiaty" arguement can  confuse some people, ( I wish you are
just confused). there is a timing problem.  Suppose Shen asks advice 
BEFORE he leaves, most current Shen's supporters would give him tons of
reasons of improperiaty to stop him from going back.  (may I just guess
that a few would whisper around"he want's to be famous" instead). Why it is
improper, because we know the government is brutal.  Remember 
Wang Juntao Yan Jiaqi were the ones tried real hard to convince students 
that occupation of the square is improper. 
It is too funny to suggest their improperiaty AFTER they get killed or 
arrested. Where is your hearts? Why cannot you see you are blaming the wrong
side, accusing the victom and  justifying the crime?

>
>> What makes you guys so easy to forget the basic right or wrong , shame on you!
>>
>> I have a personal expeirence with Mr. Shen and it is an extremly unpleasant
>>one. But his arrest is a different issue. It is not Shen Tong any more, it is
>>any human being in that context. One should be indignated regardless what is 
>>the setup.
>> 
>>  Sorry you guys, you are also in history, not so positive though.
>
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: You violate my human rights!
Reply-To: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:10:01 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

A message intended to Mr I. Ding:

There are probably thousands of netters on this net, so if
there are a few mad and crazy ones, it's no surprise.

BTW, I don't believe they are hired by CCP, the ones hired by
CCP's National Security Bureau know how to behave themselves.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HAIHUAN@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
Reply-To: HAIHUAN@ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:02:40 GMT

Acturally, Shen has never been listed on the 21 most wanted student leaders.
And Shen's activity is really funny to me instead of brave.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu)
Subject: Re:      Re: someone who sounds funny
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:39:32 GMT

In article <Bu0ItM.CzM@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep3.142016.25398@athena.mit.edu> zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
|> >|> I doubt Shen has motivation and ability to do that. I'd rather think
|> >|> he was trying to push for co-existence of Chinese people with different
|> >|> political opinions and different views toward things (such as 6/4 Massacre).
|> >|> I prefer China to become a country where different opinions (including
|> >|> communist opinion) can exist peacefully. I think that will make a more
|> >|> stable society.
|> >
|> >Well, in China, (Not stated in Constitution, though), "counter-revolution"
|> >is the correct name for that. Maybe "overturning" government is more
|> >proper there.
|> >
|> >However, there no evidence from you on his motivation right now. As for
|> >his ability, that doesn't matter in this case at all.  :)
|> 
|> I think you and me are fortunate that we are in America. Else either
|> me or you would be in jail, because we view things differently.

oops, how do you get that idea?  I don't like it at all.

|> 
|> I wish you will eventually understand the meaning of peaceful co-existence.

By making rumor against rival? :) give me a break.

|> 
|> It took me ten years to understand it. Several times in my life, I had
|> thought to kill somebody. I found that still, peaceful co-existence
|> is a better choice for my life. Your existence is the best answer to
|> your opponent, yet you should be tolerant enough to recognize the
|> existence of others.
|> 

Did I make any rumor or personal attack against anyone? :)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.china:963 soc.rights.human:3278
From: jzhang@sdcc3.ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.rights.human
Subject: Human rights abuse in Saudi Arabia and MFN
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:35:18 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.china
Organization: University of California, San Diego

The New York Times reports that a Saudi national was beheaded
in public yesterday after he was convicted of slandering God.
Guess what might happen to Saudi Arabia's MFN status with the U.S.? 

Zhenqin Li
From: jwh3@po.CWRU.Edu (Junwei W. Hou)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: For Those who have a belief---
Date: 2 Sep 1992 05:16:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: jwh3@po.CWRU.Edu (Junwei W. Hou)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu




****

Do we have the dignity to believe
Do we have the confidence to believe
That some of us have not the courage, not the heroic desire,
But a belief
so pure, so dearly, so decent, 
so home-sick, home-love?

A belief,
a belief that they are for their own souls,
that they are for their June-4 fellows who relinquished their
     hopeful lives to our hopeful land  
that they are still young and hopeful
A hope for a more beautiful homeland,
a more mother-like homeland
a homeland who will give her warmth and her love to her children, 
both those embraced in her still handcuffed arms and those away in
     a foreign land


They are there, our homeland
In our home.

We are watching
watching our home being turned into a land of prison.


                         
                              Junwei

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: China's Interests
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:35:56 GMT

In article <BtzsGn.DuC@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

>Tell us how you can distinguish CCP from normal Chinese to be punished.
>Most CCP members are normal people. And in the former Soviet Union, almost
>all original CCP high officers have kept their position by democratic
>election.

The problem is that once they reach the position, they don't
consider themselves as "normal people". They fail to understand
normal people. If they had ever understood that their arbitary
killing of 6/4 would hurt the hearts of many families, they would
not have done that.

I still vividly remember the picture in which a mother was crying
to death at the lost of her son after 6/4. How did they feel, I 
don't know.  I think their heart are very rigid.
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Protest in San Francisco
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:50:14 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <BtxKMw.GIw@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> HAIHUAN@ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>Acturally, Shen has never been listed on the 21 most wanted student leaders.
>And Shen's activity is really funny to me instead of brave.

People who have serious belief behave "funny" sometimes. Lei Feng
was one. Some Christians too. A "funny" Christian invites troubles
by adopting many homeless children. Normal people like you don't.


Xiao Li
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
Reply-To: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:09:14 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

Wed Sep  2 03:08:55 MST 1992
to: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu
subj.:     Re: Protest in San Francisco

After reading the messages posted by Mr William Deng and others,
I feel so sorry for Mr Shen.  While Mr Deng can clear his name in
such a spectacular way, Mr Shen is probably in a cold detention
cell somewhere in Beijing and could not even know that others are
defiling his name.

I am no personal friend of Mr Shen Tong and he is not asking me
to clear his name for him.  But I can't help to say something.
While the "setup" is pure speculation, the purpose of the "setup"
stated by Mr Deng is beyond speculation: "Shen Tong got what he
wanted: to get famous and ...", I really would like to hear from
Mr Deng: How did you get such conclusions?   "China also did not
break her promise: it's fine to come back if you don't do it
again no matter what you had done before."  What is the logic?

I don't want waste people more time by listing more questions
like these,  so I will learn from Mr Deng, and say a few words
for Mr Shen Tong.

To clear Mr Shen's name, it seems that I have to reveal some of
his previous activities.  Sorry I could not list many of his
previous activities as proof.  However, he was a little "famous"
so CSS's in many US schools invited him to give talks and
fortunately, University of Arizona was one of those
schools.  So, here it is:
When: Apr. 28, 1990.  Where: PAS Auditaurium, U. of Arizona
(UA), Tucson, AZ.  Audience: about 200 people (not "almost all UA
people" though "almost all KeDa people" attended Mr Deng's
speech; I have to be honest and objective, otherwise I may defile
Mr Shen's name).

Anyway, there must be enough such "previous activities" to
qualify Mr Shen Tong as "famous", so one can believe that he did
not have to resort to such a "setup" to get himself into trouble
in order to just "get famous" (my suggestion to him: just list some
of his previous activities on a major network or other media will
easily do it).

Finally, I sincerely wish we could do something to help.  I am
pleased to see the actions taken by SVDC and IFCSS.  I hope
I have wasted enough time on this nonsense dispute so that others
will not waste more time on it and can do something helpful.

Y. Gu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: John Cornett <library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU>
Subject:      Shen Tong
Reply-To: John Cornett <library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:23:01 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

It is with some reluctance that I comment on debates, because I believe if
reforms are truly taking place in China, then we U.S. people should focus on
improving ourselves more, to keep up with you. I forsee a great time coming,
with our countries both trying to build the prosperous, beautiful, democratic
societies. This is the healthy environment I hope for.

Regarding the detention of Mr. Shen Tong, I am so sorry to see this happen.
Is there any possiblility to change this danger into an opportunity? In my
fondest hopes, a scenario might occur as follows:

A dialog would develop among pro-democracy students and Party leadership,
with agreement reached on constructive engagement; that as reform progresses,
students moderate their stance, and agree to work with pro-reform forces
within China's leadership. Leadership, on the other hand, moderate their
stance, opening some doors to public discussion, and political reforms.

Reforms would include a less strict environment regarding one's personal
political views and the peaceful, hopefully constructive, expression of those
views; and phased release of those political prisoners who did no violence, and
advocated no violence.

Work with pro-reform forces would include making clear one's strong opposition
to overthrow, or harmful disruptions of any kind; and strong joint efforts for
the modern economy, the better ties and interchanges abroad for China.

If the goal for China is to be the beautiful prosperous country, with the
democratic values, why not set the goal together, and all sides work together
to reach that goal by a given date? Hopefully, that is also when Taiwan and
China might voluntarily agree to come together, to the delight of all.

The hope is, to win the release of Mr. Shen Tong and others; help the people
of China enormously; win prestige for China; and put our countries on the
best possible footing in our relations together. Whatever one's political
views, I strongly believe all in this net would like so much to achieve this.
I dont know if this is possible, but I wish all of you the very best of luck.

Sincerely,

John Cornett
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:      IFCSS HQ NR-4013: Help Shen Tong!
Reply-To: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:44:32 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

**************************************************************
IFCSS Headquarters News Release No. 4013     September 2, 1992
                   HELP SHEN TONG
**************************************************************
Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars (IFCSS)
   733 15th Street, N.W., Suite 440, Washington, D.C.20005
         Tel. (202)347-0017  Fax: (202)347-0018
                Email: ifcss@wam.umd.edu

         IFCSS Calls on Chinese Students to Help Shen Tong
         =================================================

Dear Fellow Students:

    In the early morning of September 1, Shen Tong, a Boston
University student on a home-visiting trip, was arrested in
his home in Beijing. Two other students, Qi Dafeng and Qian
Liyun, were also arrested along with Shen Tong.

    According to people who had contact with Shen Tong before
his arrest, Shen had contacted government officials in China
about the possibility of setting up an office in Beijing to
promote constructive changes in China and received positive
responses. As a result, Shen Tong went ahead to hire two
employees for the office (Qi and Qian).

    Shen's activities in Beijing had the full knowledge and
consent of related government officials and the whole project
proceeded strictly within the framework of the existing Chinese
law.

    IFCSS regards the arrest of Shen Tong and his colleagues as
a serious setback of the government's policy encouraging the
return of overseas Chinese students, a move politically unwise
and morally unjust. We call on Chinese students and scholars
across the United States to act immediately to help Shen, Qi
and Qian to regain their freedom. You may call or write to
the Chinese Embassy or related government agencies in China.
You may also enlist support from United States government
by contacting members of Congress from your area or contacting
the State Department. A concerted appeal from all of us is
very important.

    IFCSS will continue to closely monitor the situation and
will work with all forces for the release of these students.

    Agencies and numbers to call:

    State Council:                86-1-335987
    National Peoples' Congress    86-1-3098674
    Ministry of Justice           86-1-4081613
    State Education Commission    86-1-6011049
    Beijing Municipal Government  86-1-5121175

    Chinese Embassy               202-328-2500
    2300 Connecticut Ave. N.W.
    Washington, D.C. 20008


***************************************************************
         IFCSS Headquarters Office    Signature
***************************************************************
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Re: Hand NBC an 8-year jail sentence
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:40:03 GMT

In article <BtnvxH.7Ir@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Yuan M Jiang <ymj1@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU> writes:
>Great, Beijing Daily has finally followed IFCSS' call.
>
>Beijing Daily has convicted NBC for rumor muggling.
>NBC should have not forgotten that Xiao1 Bin1 was
>sentence for an 8 year in jail for spreading
>rumors in the summer of 1989.  Yes, put NBC in the reform through
>labor camp and force it to produce US-bound export goods.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>2. Beijing Daily Rips U.S. Media's Olympic Coverage .................... 42
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------


	I fully agree that NBC's insinuations about the Chinese female
swimmers were totally unsupported and out of place. The outrage on
the part of Chinese all over the world is justified. (I'm an American.)

	*However*, a single article weeks after the end of the Games is a 
pathetic response. Here's what the Chinese government should have done 
while the Olympics were still in progress:

	It should have called an international news conference, blasted
NBC and any other news organizations who made similar accusations, and
announced that China welcomes, in fact *demands*, year-round, random
drug testing for Olympic athletes in *all* nations starting immediately.

	Such a response would have put to rest all doubt and embarrassed
NBC in front of the entire world. The wimply little article whose header
is atop my posting will be read mostly by Chinese, and the real audience
should be Americans. You may rejoice, but the official Chinese response
is like talking real big long after your opponent has called your mother 
a whore and gone home untouched.

	Furthermore, the failure to challenge NBC and America on the spot 
to year-round random tests had the unfortunate consequence of making the 
Chinese swimmers look guilty of the charge in the eyes of (an already 
prejudiced) many. (Please don't flame me for claiming they're guilty: I'm 
NOT saying that.)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zeng@mth.msu.edu (Zhonggang Zeng)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re:  Protest against the arresting of SHEN Tong
Date: 4 Sep 92 03:39:13 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Michigan State University

In article <Bu0sp2.LK@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>Of course ST has the right to do what he wants. The point is should we
>support his action or not. If the action by ST which has such terrible
>damage on the sum of all Chinese' interests is acceptable even encouraged,

Hay! Bill, how did you calculated the "sum of all Chinese' interests"? You
still didn't answer it yet although you insist in abusing it. You owe this
net a calculation which is long overdue.

>how can we call Wang, Jing-wei the traitor (Han4 Jian1)? Because helping
>Japanese to control China and establishing another government in China
>is also Wang, Jinwei's basic human rights, according to some netter's logic.:-)
>

Is this your understanding of human rights? I'm shocked. 

>
>William Deng