HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: caine@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dark Lord of the Sith)
Subject: Re: Being a Master?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:51:00 GMT

>>What makes one a master at SF2 or SF2CE?
>>Could you masters out there please explain!
> 
>Alas, a master by *MY* definition is a person who consistantly plays "perfect"
>games.  "Perfect" games are those where the player does everything he is
>supposed to do and times everything correctly.  Thus, all counters are done at
>the proper distance, all potential throws are always done, and patience is a
>virtue.  The determining factors between two masters is usually who is quicker
>and luckier.
>It's very difficult to be master of a single character, much less a total
>master of the game.  I personally screw up (mis-time) too often to be labled
>as a master, even though I do know the most, if not all the counters for my
>characters.  (Simply knowing what to do isn't enough -- you need to have to
>good timing/reflexes.)

Well said.  Then, by this definition, there are very few *true* masters of
the games.  Albeit, there are lots more people who know so much about the
game, it seems like their head's gonna explode.  I thought I knew a lot,
but I probably learn something new every week.  Ever try standing roundhouse
buffered into a DP?  Looks cool, but hard as hell to do...I'd never seen it
until I did it last week.  The closest to a master (if not already there)
_I've_ ever seen has to be Ming.  When he's not screwing around (he does that
a LOT), he's almost unbeatable with any character.  Granted, others here are
getting better, I doubt any of us will ever have such a deep understanding
of the game.

Being a master is not very definable actually, at least not like a Pac-Man
master or anything like that.  Show me the best master, and I would say
it would be someone who knows SF2 as well as those chess players like
Karpov know chess.  Counters to absolutely everything, and an unmistakeable
style that is all his own.  I'm thinking you'd have to play for years upon
years upon years to become this good.  Look at this:
Category		SF2:CE   		Chess
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moves (1 piece)		at least 20? to 50?	2 to 8
Moves (all pieces)  	same as above		you count (!)
Different pieces	12			6
Pieces at once		2			32
You control		1			16
Complexity		Very High		Even higher
Mastery time (1 pc.) 	> 6 Months (?)		Coupla weeks
Mastery Time (all)	> 3 Years (?)		> 5 Years (?)


Of course some of the numbers are arbitrary, and others may be plain wrong.
> 6 Months to master a single character seems about right to me.  I've only
been playing since July.  Some figures represent an arbitrary amount of 
playing time per week.  Say about 2-3 hours (?).  I'm sure that anyone who
thinks he/she is a master may find the match of his/her life somewhere.  I
imagine almost anyone in the U.S. may find it difficult to win in Japan or
Taiwan or the like (they practice for rounds on end!).
	       
Enough hot air for now...finals (yuk!)

Caine Schneider

Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: skillian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Seth James Killian)
Subject: Re: Being a Master?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:48:14 GMT

jnishina@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Nishinaga) writes:


>operbwt@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (Barry Trottier) writes (in partial):
> 
>>What makes one a master at SF2 or SF2CE?
>>
>>Could you masters out there please explain!
> 
>Alas, a master by *MY* definition is a person who consistantly plays "perfect"
>games.  "Perfect" games are those where the player does everything he is
>supposed to do and times everything correctly.  Thus, all counters are done at
>the proper distance, all potential throws are always done, and patience is a
>virtue.  The determining factors between two masters is usually who is quicker
>and luckier.
> 
>It's very difficult to be master of a single character, much less a total
>master of the game.  I personally screw up (mis-time) too often to be labled
>as a master, even though I do know the most, if not all the counters for my
>characters.  (Simply knowing what to do isn't enough -- you need to have to
>good timing/reflexes.)

	I must disagree here.  While doing everything you are supposed to and
	knowing all the counters along with an excellent sense of timing are
	certainly a part of it, we have a _lot_ of these types at UIUC.  You
	can watch them play a "perfect" round, they will not have made any 
	mistakes that you could name, but they will lose.  Case in point:
	Master Sagat's tend to be the ones who do all their moves seemingly
	perfectly, they do not throw FB foolishly, they have excellent timing, 
	and the "deep" TU as well as mastery over any other technique you 
	could concievably test for.  I can beat these guys with Ryu, who IMO,
	is at a character disadvantage in this match up.  How?  I think there
	is a certain quality of utter unpredictability which is essential to 
	win consistently.  A lot of Guile's are perfect pattern Guile's (this
	is not so much to say that they play a set pattern, they are just 
	unimaginative) they land combo's perfectly, they know all the spacings
	and priorites, yet sometimes you may see somebody walk in and trash 
	them.  What did he do?  It is very difficult to put your finger on, but
	I think it is just a sort of "craziness".  You should see some of the
	places like this.  You go in, and everyone is nearing perfect executin
	of every technique, matches are always close, and a couple of them are
	just slightly better than the others.  I have an easy time with these 
	types in general, for no reason I could ever hope to put into words.
	This has not been very coherent, I just thought I had to say that 
	total mastery of techniques and perfect timing alone do not a master
	make.

		Seth Killian

>--
>John Nishinaga - jnishina@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom)
Subject: Re: Best Opening Moves
Keywords: Best Opening Moves
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:10:25 GMT

In <1992Dec15.051612.2458@leland.Stanford.EDU> inkblot@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:

>In article <BzA3JA.Hqn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> skillian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Seth James Killian) writes:
>>	
>>
>>	Although I know my own personal choices, I was wondering what the
>>	favorite opening moves vs. any given character are in general.  I
>>	don't remember hearing any threads about this in recent memory and
>>	in some matches it is important enough to decide the momentum and
>>	in some cases, the whole round.  More specifically, what is a good
>>	opening move against Bison?  Or Ryu/Ken vs. Guile?  Just interested
>>	in opinions in general here, but please try to support them by saying
>>	"DP at the very beginning, because if so and so does this then you
>>	can just do that to counter..." or give some sort of reasoning.
>>	Any thoughts?
>>
>Well, I'll take the easy one first.

>Guile vs. anyone under the sun

>SONIC BOOM

>After throwing the boom, the worst that can happen is that Guile will end up
>trading 1 tick of energy. (Ryu/Ken/whatever jumps over and gets one tick off
>the special move part f their combo)

>If the opponent maks a silly mistake, Guile gets a nice head start.

>The only counter for this where Guile loses (that i've seen) is Zan's SPD
>through the boom, and that was on Classic.

Oh, I almost forgot.  Ryu can HK over your sonic boom.  Ouch!  Better be 
careful with your sonic boom.  With Guile, it's better to charge but play
reactionary.  If you see a HK or a jump, razor kick, else sonic boom.

-- 
Brian T Odom

"We are all manufacturers -- some make good, others make trouble, and still
others make excuses."
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: kalex@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Ken Alexander)
Subject: SF2CE with odd sounds
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:31:04 GMT

There's an SF2CE machine here that is screwed up without being accelerated.
It isn't faster, you can't do the moves in the air, etc., but the sounds
are all rearranged.  When Ken/Ryu throw a fireball, they yell "USA Fight!"
When they dragon punch, they yell "USSR!"  When they hurricane kick, they
yell "China Spain!" (I think.)  Guile says "Brazil!" for a sonic boom.

Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: dphantom@triton.unm.edu (darlene an  92sep02 lawry)
Subject: Re: Masterity time
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 01:23:58 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <28335@optima.cs.arizona.edu> hogue@cs.arizona.edu (Justin C. Hogue) writes:
>
>  Please ignore the spelling in the subject, but I was wondering how long
>it takes people to master a character, and if you are a master at more that
>one, how long did the others take?  Trying not to be cocky or humble, I
>stand at
>   ~8 months for Honda
>   ~4 months for Zangief
>And I am better with Z now.  What about Y'all.
>--Jowfus

Think that entirely depends on your competition.  It's hard to master
everything (particularly countering) unless there are people that put
you to the test.  So, maybe a person that's considered a "master" in
one area wouldn't be in another.  Or vice versa.

For example, someone actually refered to me as being a Blanka master 
the other day (Blanka?! Oh well).  But that was only because I seem
to be able to beat the locals with him.  I don't play him all that much,
and I KNOW I have weaknesses with him.  It's just that they couldn't
seem to find them.  (shrug)

---Phantom
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris)
Subject: Re: Best Home Street Fighter II
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:13:18 GMT

>>Best yet is the Amiga's version which includes 222 animation frames for each
>>character and 15 moves at least for each character...  

>This isn't too good, considering Guile has over 40 _normal_ moves....

Over 40?  Hmmm...

  1 standing jab
  2 standing strong (straight punch, retardo uppercut)
  2 standing fierce (backhand, uppercut)
  1 crouching jab
  1 crouching strong
  1 crouching fierce (uppercut)
  1 standing short
  3 standing forward (snap kick, knee, jumping reverse kick)
  3 standing roundhouse (twirling kick, funny backwards kick, upside down kick)
  1 crouching short
  1 crouching forward
  1 crouching roundhouse
  1 aerial jab
  1 aerial strong/fierce
  2 aerial short  (one for jumping straight up, one for jumping forward/back)
  2 aerial forward (as above)
  1 aerial roundhouse
  1 aerial throw
  1 aerial backbreaker
  1 strong throw
  1 fierce throw
  1 sonic boom
  1 razor kick
  1 walking sequence
  1 standing still
  1 high block
  1 crouching
  1 crouching block
  1 jumping straight up/down
  1 jumping at an angle
  1 staggering
  1 dizzy
  1 dying!

That's all I could think of - hey, a total of 41!  You win!

--
Tim Morris

Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: skillian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Seth James Killian)
Subject: Re: Zangief and his throw combo
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:51:10 GMT

kchchang@remus.rutgers.edu (kai chang) writes:


>	About Zangif.  I believe to do a Chin-Smash you need to be somewhat of a good distance (much longer than the throw), and press toward the guy with strong punch.
>	That's the way I do it.  I don't play Z all that often, but it seems to work when I want to grab the person (to do less damage).
>	How do keep holding on, I don't know.  I wish someone can tell me how to keep holding on with Blanka's bite too!  Or how to do a standing flip kick with Guile (I was told it was impossible)

		Actually, I'm not really sure about getting the most bites or
	noogies or chinsmashes.  I do know that wiggling the joystick will get
	you out of it faster, and I just assume that wiggling on the offensive
	has the same effect of "speeding up" the move.  Difficult to put to
	scientific tests due to the differing damage that these moves take off
	at different times during the game.  Guile's standing razor kick can
	be done, although it may not be all that it sounds.  You learn it by
	familiarizing yourself with the absolute maximum amount of time Guile
	can "hold" his charge.  When you have got this, it becomes possible to
	stand up during a razorkick.  Guile can stand only for a split second,
	but it is enough to get in a jab or strong punch (standing) before the
	razor comes out.  This can be used as an additional hit during combos
	that end with a razorkick.  Plus it looks really cool.  I can't do it
	at all (did it once) but a couple of the other regulars (Guile players)
	can do it pretty regularly.  I think that a strong punch is the most
	damaging move you can do before your charge expires on the razor, but
	if anyone else has seen something else, please post it.  On classic,
	I have seen Cybergeek do the standing razor with the fierce backhand,
	but the backhand does not connect, you just see the first few frames of
	animation before it is interrupted by the razor.  Looks spectacular,     	even though it does no additional damage.  So yes, you can do a standing	razorkick, but you cannot just walk around the screen with it charged up	so it's mainly just for style points and that extra hit in razorkick 
	combo's.

		Seth Killian

>	Any of you saw the guy after Bison in the old edition?  rumor said there were one, but never saw one.  Rumor also said that you need to tie with Bison on the second round to see him, but never did either.
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: skillian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Seth James Killian)
Subject: Re: Ken
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:31:48 GMT

el27166@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (This Space for Rent) writes:

>spolar4879@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:

>>those that can slide forward.  Has anyone else discovered this/countered it?

>Maybe.  But so far, I have yet to understand it.

	(Roll music from beginning of 2001: A Space Oddessey...)  I could
	be wrong (or just confused by that MUDDLED post) but I think that
	spolar4879@iscsvax...

		HAS JUST DISCOVERED THE KEN/RYU FB/DRAGON PUNCH ROUTINE!
	
	I don't think this is news here, but congratulations on independently
	discovering a very effective newbie technique.

		Seth Killian

>>                Your Newly discovered reader,
>>                J. Spolar
>-- 
>Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek)                      el27166@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>If you have nothing good to say, sit down, shut up, and post to USENET.
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: prock@teetot.acusd.edu (The Prock)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death
Organization: University of San Diego, Earth
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:07:21 GMT



In article <Bz7GtB.2sE@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> loverde@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (AstralWolf) writes:
>In <1992Dec12.005522.2774@athena.mit.edu> cyu@athena.mit.edu (Erorppn Xrzavgm) writes:
>
>   [Beginning of Bison debate deleted]
>
>     Actually, I think that Bison is a very strong character, but my 
>personal opinion of his weakness (at least vs a master), is what most
>consider his greatest asset.  Namely that he is completely vulnerable after
>the scissor kick!  There is no TRUE COMBO that continues beyond the scissor
>kick.  I can ALWAYS DP or TigerUppercut a Bison who attempts to do 
>any move after that scissor.  I am currently experimenting with this,

This is wonderful knowledge when it is first gained but soon after it 
turns the game into a guessing game from hell.  When your opponent knows
you can do this they will mix it up.  Sometimes they will follow up
with another move, sometimes they don't.  They have nothing to lose
if they don't follow it up because most people block the third move.
Basically they throw the ball into your court and react to your move. 
If you DP then Bison throws you.  

It makes the game suddenly more complex:)

The same thing happened when the Guile's around here found out that
I could DP their sweeping foot that followed a Sonic Boom.  Now it
is a guessing game.  And a bit more stressful.  But fun.  Also Guile
is fast enough that if you miss a DP he'll almost assuredly throw you
after you miss if he is close at all.  

>but I believe you can probably throw him after the move too.  Now don't

Haven't tried this but I know you can SPD him after the move.  For
some reason I don't think it would be easy to get a throw out.  But 
who knows?

>get me wrong, the window of opportunity is very small, but vs a master with
>good timing, Bison is vulnerable at that point.  Of course vs lesser
>players, it often works since they either block at t his point, or try and
>do some normal move and get clocked by the rest of the PSEUDO COMBO.
>This has been my observation, and you can say that the Bison's here all
>suck, but I encourage you to go field test it.  I have been hit by a move
>after the scissor kick on rare occasion, but I attribute it to mistiming
>or screwing up the DP on my part.  Try it and see...
>

Agreed it is not hard to DP it once the timing is down.

Andrew Prock

>-- 
>   /|        /              / |      /       /  /-/  Can be reached on the
>  / |  /--/ --- |/-/ /-\|  |  |  ^  /  /-\  |  |/    Astral Planes known as:
> /--|  \-\   |  |   |   |  |  | /| /  |  |  |  |      loverde@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
>/   | \--/  /  /    \--/| /   |/ |/   \-/  /   /      jvl45017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu


Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: inkblot@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon)
Subject: Re: SFII-CE Match-UPs and Ratings
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 05:15:12 GMT

In article <Bz4opM.DoH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> caine@dcl-nxt01 (Caine B Schneider) writes:

[ratings and commentary deleted]

>I do agree with your Sagat ratings.  I've seen many a Ryu or Ken (including
>yourself) go down to Sagat.  Personally, I play Sagat to beat Ryu or Guile,
>but vs. Ken seems to be more advantageous to Ken.  

Really?   I think it's the other way around; Sagat has a slight advantage 
against Ken, and falls a bit behind Ryu.  The deciding factor is the
difference between the two's fireballs;  Ken's recovery time is so slow
that Sagat can jump over and smack him without having to anticipate the
fireball.  Against Ryu, Sagat gets DPed.  So, a defensive Sagat can take out
Ken without too much trouble.  

ON ANOTHER NOTE...
------------------

Now that the 'Ryu fireball' thread has died down, how's about discussing 
Sagat's low 'tigerball' trap.  I tried it for the first time today, and
it seems to be just as (if not more) effective than Ryu's trap.  It's basic
execution is exactly like Ryu's (i.e. stand about 3/4 of the screen away
from your opponent when he's in the corner and assault him with a barrage
of low tigers.)  Any comments?


>Caine Schneider
>
---
T. Cannon
From: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us (Tony DeBari)
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
Subject: Re: Best Opening Moves
Keywords: Best Opening Moves
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 19:09:51 -0500
Organization: Lost In Space

In <BzA3JA.Hqn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> skillian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Seth James Killian) writes:
>	Although I know my own personal choices, I was wondering what the
>	favorite opening moves vs. any given character are in general.  I
>	don't remember hearing any threads about this in recent memory and
>	in some matches it is important enough to decide the momentum and
>	in some cases, the whole round.  More specifically, what is a good
>	opening move against Bison?  Or Ryu/Ken vs. Guile?  Just interested
>	in opinions in general here, but please try to support them by saying
>	"DP at the very beginning, because if so and so does this then you
>	can just do that to counter..." or give some sort of reasoning.
>	Any thoughts?

$0.02 cents from a Ryu player...

Normally, I just block and see what my opponent opens with.  If I have 
watched the person for a while and noticed a patern to his/her opening, 
I'll prepare to counter what I think is coming.  I also have a few "canned" 
openings for some specific characters, based on what I perceive to be their 
most frequent openings.

For example, I usually start off a match against Bison with a hurricane kick
since most Bisons I play against start off with a torpedo.  Against Blanka,
I'll throw out a few quick jabs to squelch any ball openings.  Against every-
one else (including Bisons and Blankas who I don't think will torp/ball), I
just wait for them to come to me, then counter and combo as the oppotunities
arise.

-- 
Tony DeBari          FQDN: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us     CI$: 73117,452
                     UUCP: ...!uunet!ssc60!tonyd      *P*: GHRW14B

a.k.a. Skip Bowler, captain of USENET Fantasy Bowling League Team 9.
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
From: drkhoe@nmt.edu (ONID)
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death
Date: 11 Dec 92 11:11:49 GMT
Organization: New Mexico Tech


Well, the torpedo is nice, you can try to play cheap, but any Ken/Ryu master will
know to throw a DP as soon as he is getting up, and then you are fucked if you
are torpedoing back and forth across the screen...

The torpedo may do as much damage as a fierce DP, but a fierce triple DP does much
more... :)

-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Computers are bad for you, they cause brain cavities... Even Crest can't help!
"Shouryuken" - Ryu | The piper has lost his way... the mice have ran away!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%---drkhoe@nmt.edu---%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
Subject: Re: Possible cast list
From: jmangold@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:02:51 EST
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1992Dec17.054711.7475@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs922096@ariel.yorku.ca (JOSE J. MONTANO) writes:
>      This may be wishful thinking.....but I have been playing with the
> idea of who would be gpood choices for any Street Fighter live action
> film....
>      
>      Guile......no contest here--Dolph Lundgren
>      Ryu........my pick is Don "the Dragon Wilson", although 
>                 Brandon Lee is a good choice too.
>      Chun Li....find a good double for Joan Chen (of Last Emperor fame)
>      Honda......Not too hard, find a big and muscular sumotori with a
>                 gut.
>      Zangief....Animal of the former Legion of Doom tag team.....
>      Dhalsim....(open)
>      Blanka.....Any big guy.....
>      Ken........If anyone can find a better one than Patrick Swayze, 
>                 please post!!!
>      
> now the bosses......
>      Balrog.....Riddick Bowe
>      Vega.......(open)
>      Sagat......If Dolph were darker and he didn't look like a Guile,
>                 he could do this role, but.....any suggestions....
>      Bison......Arnold.
> 
>      Plot:
>        Basically, a Bloodsport type.  Each fighter would grow tired of 
> local competition and sport, yearning for full-contact, winner-take-all
> fighting.  To get around the "who's the good guy" problem....a plot
> twist could be set up where one of the "good" 8 would advance to the
> final rounds and barely win.  But Bison would try to get revenge and an
> all-out mano a mano war would ensue.......|)
> 

As far as I'm concerned, Bloodsport *is* the SF2 live action movie.  Have you
noticed all the similarities b/t the two?  There's your typical, generic hero
dude in Van Dam (Ryu), a big, fat Sumo-type who, 1. has students (who he throws
heavy bags/weights at), 2. laughs and raises his arms after doing so, just like 
Honda's victory stance, and 3. has a bearhug manuever that he sinches on to Van
Dam (not original, just similar).  There's even that guy Paco, whose style of
fighting is just like that of Sagat's (his raised hands and knee).  Not to
mention that small, scrawny animal-dude on all fours who sorta reminds me of
Blanka...
	There is a _rumor_ that such a film is already being shot in Japan. 
IMHO this has got to be the WORST idea in the history of film-making.  Can you
imagine how queer the outfits would look on live actors?  And what about the
special moves, how would they be made to be taken reasonably serious?  And
Blanka's makeup?  The list goes on and on.  Don't take me wrong, I love a good
beat 'em movie just like the next guy, but for SF2, no way.

					the "Doctor"

> Well.....what does everyone think?  Could it work?
> 
> 
> |)  Joe
> 
> 
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2