HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: TCL windows and dialogs
Date: 18 Dec 92 17:47:45 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

Hi,

This sort of question is beginning to look repetitious, sorry. Is there a 
FAQ for this newsgroup? How do I get it?
That wasn't the question. I am using Think Pascal / TCL. I want the main 
window to be a modeless dialog (or window with text fields), and two 
subsidiary windows (not usually visible) to handle text and graphics.
The program reads in x-y coords of spider webs, and calculates a few
hundred parameters, then outputs the results to FileForce files. The
program has to display some changeable information (like date) on screen,
and optionally display a picture of the web, and a text log file.
Now, how is this best structured. CDocument is not a subclass of CDLOG-
Director. Should I make itsWindow the log window, have a separate director
to deal with the graphic window, and a subclass of CDLOGDirector to handle
the dialog? Seems awkward, because the dialog has a couple of buttons to
skip the web, or get the next from the file. I have to keep passing data
back and fore to save to the file. 
Sorry this is so rambling. If people email, I'll summarise to the net.
Thanks in advance.
Alun ap Rhisiart
Animal Behaviour Research Group
Oxford University
(vollrath@vax.ox.ac.uk)
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:41:58 EST
From: <CHARLESW@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: The Member Function: Spawn Of Satan?
 <sold.118.724363763@kit.uni-kl.de>

Wouldn't it be better (or purer) to have an instance variable, fVisible say,
and an accessor method, GetVisibility, in the parent class?  (or am I missing
something?)

.../dave   Dave Charlesworth
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:123 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20077
From: okeefe@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Paul O'Keefe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: GNU copyleft (was: Summary: I'm faint!)
Date: 19 Dec 92 05:23:38 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci
Originator: okeefe@dubhe.cs.buffalo.edu


In article <keithley-181292171536@kip2-37.apple.com>, keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
> 
> Unfortunately the GNU "copyleft" for GCC (and their varients of lex &
> yacc), prevent me from using those tools for commercial work.

The GNU copyleft is much discussed and I don't wish to revive the debate here,
but the above might lead some to believe that the commercial use of
copylefted software will undermind thier property rights.

Several companies have include GNU stuff which thier products
and I'm not aware that any have suffered as a result.

So, I suspect that it's Apple's conservative legal policy and not the copyleft
that prevents Craig from using GCC.

-Paul O'Keefe
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: jak@panix.com (Jack Kreuger)
Subject: Re: Prograph
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:11:45 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC
Keywords: mac,oop,Prograph

In <1gj6q5INN249@agate.berkeley.edu> art@physics.berkeley.edu (Art Ferruzzi) writes:

>I vote in advance for a Prograph newsgroup.

>art@physics.berkeley.edu
>___________________________________________
>All disclaimers apply.

Yes, to a Prograph newsgroup.


Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:73 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19669
From: edw@distant.uucp (Ed Watkeys)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 12:16:35 EST
Organization: Distant Software
Reply-To: edw%distant@bts.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v2


In article <01050133.krgeil@distant.uucp> (comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer), edw@distant.uucp (Ed Watkeys) writes:
> 
> I don't know if I'm reading the APDA price lists correctly, but it seems to
> me that in order to get MPW w/ C and C++, one needs to shell out an insane
> amount of money, somewhere around $600. Is this correct? Does any other place
> sell MPW, perhaps at a slightly lower price? I'm beginning to really like
> THINK C, especially since it cost me $50 through Drexel.
> 
> Ed

Okay, it seems as though no one would recommend MPW for use by a single human
being, unless you are in need of some capability which only MPW offers.
Furthermore, there is the indication that MPW is actually worth the price,
if you really need it.

For me, I was interested (past tense) in MPW because of its mulitple language
support, but can now live without it. (what a co-incidence...)

--
Edwin H. Watkeys III                                   edw@distant.uucp
Distant Software                               dsinc!jabber!distant!edw
+1 215 387 7971                                     edw%distant@bts.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:29:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk>, agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk
(Alan Gauld) wrote:
> 
> around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
> doesn't believe they should be able to use "his" (ie GNU) software. I'm not

We're both putting words into his mouth, but I think he objects to
supporting Apple hardware and he also encourages people not to purchase
Apple products, not to work for Apple, etc.  

> sure I agree with him but I do respect his views and ponder the morality of
> porting GNU stuff to Apple platforms when the authors would rather it wasn't
> done... Shouldn't the "porter" just go out and write his own?

Perhaps that's true.  But there's a conflict in that his approach is that
the software should be unencumbered so that anyone can do anything s/he
wants with it and that all changes should be equally unencumbered.  So by
that philosophy, it's perfectly reasonable for people to port it to the
Mac.

Even if there wasn't a boycott against Apple the GNU software (especially
GCC) wouldn't be ported to the Mac OS as a matter of course simply because
their focus is Unix-like machines and it's relatively hard to port some of
the software to the Mac.

Larry Rosenstein
Taligent, Inc.

lsr@taligent.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:04:19 GMT

In article <wallich.724643856@pepper> wallich@ncd.com (Ken Wallich) writes:
>edw@distant.uucp (Ed Watkeys) writes:
>
>At least the prices aren't up their with the NeXT box (yet)...

Actually, it is pretty damn close.  Plus you get a hell of a lot more
with the NeXT.  And the development environment pretty much kicks butt
on MPW.

Used prices for mono NeXTstations (25 MHz 68040) w/ 8MB RAM and 105 MB
HD with the 17" 4-bit megapixel monitor are averaging about $2700.
This comes with a better development environment than you can currently buy
for the macintosh. 

That's a much better deal than a quadra (even a used one).

New prices run a little higher than a quadra w/ monitor.

(as a side note, Sun is offering SPARC classics now for $4000 new [but
you have to buy 12 ;-) ] or I believe around $8000 new.  It wouldn't
be too hard to dump $8-10k into a Quadra system and it would be very 
S L O W compared to the SPARC.  Plus there's better compilers
available etc...)

Of course I can't afford any of these so this is all just machine-envy
:)

-Howard

-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                       			   howard@netcom.com
			  WARNING: Intel Inside
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 20:06:09 GMT

keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
>But I stand by my suggestion that you carefully read the GNU documents
>(especially for GCC & Bison) before using or porting GNU tools.  This
>suggestion  holds true for any software development tool.  These days, with
>run-time licenses, copyrights, copylefts, and so forth, its very important
MVw`V>	Lc<|B
>that the software developer understand her or his rights, responsibilities,
>and liabilities.

     It's also worth noting that if you use MacApp, your source code may
be "contaminated" with Apple code, and you may have legal difficulties 
porting it to non-Apple platforms.  Since a port to Windows may make
good business sense, it's probably wise to get legal advice
before using MacApp for any serious work.

					John Nagle
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 13:28:19 EST
From: <IO92668@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Prograph

Another pro-Prograph newsgroup

Mark Leaman
io92668@maine.maine.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: sold@kit.uni-kl.de (Christoph Sold)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: The Member Function: Spawn Of Satan?
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:09:23 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern

In article <1992Dec13.144549.24447@reed.edu> orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne) writes:
>From: orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne)
>Subject: The Member Function: Spawn Of Satan?
>Date: 13 Dec 92 14:45:49 GMT
>In Object C and Pascal, the member function reveals whether a given object
>is descended from a given class. I wonder if it is good or bad to use it.
>It seems un-structured. What would Djikstra say?
>
>When I use it, I invariably feel guilty. I worry that perhaps a seriously
>abstract class variable could formalize whatever notions are at work. Or I
>think that it is a kludge so that I can put off a total overhaul until I
>figure out how to work in the exceptional classes. That sort of thing.
>
>So then, am I just an OO-prude?
>
>Dumbfounded,
>Theus (orpheus@reed.edu)


As of today, I#ve found a very nice way to use the member() function. Say, 
we want something to do at the idle time -- update a clock on-screen, do 
some measuring from an external DVM, something the like. It turns out the 
clock never needs to be configured, while the external device needs this 
option (since there is more than one kind of external device You can connect 
to). Of course, the solution is a class

class TIdlingObject{}

which does all the idling behavior, such as scheduling idlers, executing 
them, and the like.

derived from this one are various subclasses -- say, TEditableIdlingObject 
and TFacelessIdlingObject.

The tricky part comes when You want the user to access instances of idling 
objects. You can easily build a list of TIdlingObjects, but the only way to 
exclude the TFacelessIdlingObjects from the list will be to call the member 
function -- which tells You if the object You look at is an 
TEditableIdlingObject.

So, leave the theroy aside and use it -- it's really useful.

-Christoph

P.S: Sorry about all that MacAppish names, but I'm used to...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christoph P. Sold                   CATS Software GmbH
                                    Mussbacher Landstr.2
sold@kit.uni-kl.de                  W-6730 Neustadt (Weinstrasse)
ger.xse0035@applelink.apple.com     Germany

"If an apple is fun, what the heck is an appletree?"
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 17 Dec 92 07:13:07 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)

In article <1992Dec17.163231.12864@waikato.ac.nz>, ldo@waikato.ac.nz
(Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University) wrote:
> In article <1992Dec16.062319.16732@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) writes:
> >      MPW is modelled on the UNIX Programmer's Workbench, circa 1978, and
> > offers roughly the same level of functionality.
> 
> Really?? I didn't know UNIX had multi-window text editing and an integrated
> shell/editor in 1978!!!

Neither did UNIX have a Smalltalk style 'window contents are files'
mapping. Most of the UNIX editors still don't today don't have it
(with the exception of GNU style lisp editors and CodeCenter environments).

I think the core issue is that 'let the thousand flowers bloom" (no,
I'm not a Maoist). It merely means that there are 1 million programmers
out there, and they all have different opinions about what the perfect
dev. environment should look like. Some like graphical interfaces,
others (like me) enjoy Lisp/Smalltalk style interaction environments.
Others
like MPW/UNIX style editing environments. Instead of limiting the
programmer
experience, I do feel that various companies should provide alternate
solutions, and the programmer could select one that he/she likes. It's 
like shopping for a car, somebody likes Volvos, others like French
cars, and I hate most cars :-) *)


Kent
*) Ever tried to use your bike in California?
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:00:36 GMT

agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Gauld) writes:
>A small point but I don't think Stallman has anything against Macs. 
>Its Apple he doesn't like (and anyone else who throws copyright suits 
>around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he

Everyone in the computer industry does the lawsuit thing, Stallman doesn't
like Apple becasue the Mac is a closed system.
-Terry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: GNU copyleft (was: Summary: I'm faint!)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:35:35 GMT
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer

In article <BzHqzF.D7w@acsu.buffalo.edu>, okeefe@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Paul
O'Keefe) wrote:
> 
> 
> In article <keithley-181292171536@kip2-37.apple.com>, keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
> > 
> > Unfortunately the GNU "copyleft" for GCC (and their varients of lex &
> > yacc), prevent me from using those tools for commercial work.
> 
> The GNU copyleft is much discussed and I don't wish to revive the debate here,
> but the above might lead some to believe that the commercial use of
> copylefted software will undermind thier property rights.
> 
> Several companies have include GNU stuff which thier products
> and I'm not aware that any have suffered as a result.
> 
> So, I suspect that it's Apple's conservative legal policy and not the copyleft
> that prevents Craig from using GCC.

Gee, it's been agest since I was last involved with GNU battles,
and frankly speaking I enjoyed staying out from all that legal crap. So
this is maybe the last comment ever I will have about GNU. Originally
the GNU manifesto had some strict rules stating that anything produced
with GNU tools should be shipped with full sources and copyleft. Due to
pressure from the working programmer community field this manifesto was
changed, and nowadays it should not be a legal problem to produce binaries
and not ship the sources. There's something still going on concerning the
libc++ libraries, but someone else might comment on that.

Anyway, nothing hinders the FSF people to suddenly revise their rules, so
I guess that's why legal people in various software companies warns
for use of GNU tools due to possible sudden future problems. This is the 
scary part FSF and legal issues, in my humble opinion. Or in other words,
as Nietzsche said: "Moral judgement and condemnation is the favorite form
of revenge for the spiritually limited on those who are less so....".

or, "Battle not with monsters, lest you become a monster."

I agreee, Nietzsche was a racist :-). And the last cite applies to him
as well.

Cheers,
Kent
PS: Have fun during the holidays breaks!
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:25:17 GMT
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer

In article <lsr-181292192918@lsr.taligent.com>, lsr@taligent.com (Larry
Rosenstein) wrote:
> My point was that even if the FSF wasn't boycotting Apple, they would not
> be doing ports to the Mac.  The FSF doesn't actively support all platforms;
> some are only "passively supported".

This is my own opinion -- not Apple's (!) -- but I'm personally quite
skeptical about software moral values, copylefts and selection of some
companies
that are somewhat 'better' than others. As a good example look what 
Sun tried to do by providing money to a small company so this smaller
one could sue OSF. Double moral, dear Watson, double moral. In other
words we should not be so naive concerning company politics, even better
just leave that out from the personal 'change the world' attitude.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:91 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19918
From: agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:27:56 GMT
Organization: BT Glasgow Engineering Centre, Scotland.

In article <1gb6n9INNpmk@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, krk@oit.itd.umich.edu (Kenneth Knight) writes:
>.... Also, a port of gcc 2.x is in the works (not through GNU since 
> R. Stallman doesn't like the Mac...) and that'll run under MPW.
A small point but I don't think Stallman has anything against Macs. 
Its Apple he doesn't like (and anyone else who throws copyright suits 
around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
doesn't believe they should be able to use "his" (ie GNU) software. I'm not
sure I agree with him but I do respect his views and ponder the morality of
porting GNU stuff to Apple platforms when the authors would rather it wasn't
done... Shouldn't the "porter" just go out and write his own?

Now I duck and wait for the FLAME! ;-)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A.J. Gauld				EMail: 	  agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk
BT, Glasgow Engineering Centre,         Phone:    +44 41 553 2140
229 George Street, Glasgow, UK          PostCode: G1 1BZ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:108 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20003
From: time@ice.com (Tim Endres)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 10:05:02 EST
Organization: ICE Engineering, Inc.
Reply-To: time@ice.com (Tim Endres)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v2


In article <1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk> (comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer), agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Gauld) writes:
> >.... Also, a port of gcc 2.x is in the works (not through GNU since 
> > R. Stallman doesn't like the Mac...) and that'll run under MPW.
> A small point but I don't think Stallman has anything against Macs. 
> Its Apple he doesn't like (and anyone else who throws copyright suits 
> around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
> doesn't believe they should be able to use "his" (ie GNU) software. I'm not
> sure I agree with him but I do respect his views and ponder the morality of
> porting GNU stuff to Apple platforms when the authors would rather it wasn't
> done... Shouldn't the "porter" just go out and write his own?

And maybe Stahllman (and you) should re-read his own GNU manifesto.

I can see him putting Macs at the bottom of the porting list.
I can see him LOUDLY stating his grievances about Apple.
I can see him not buying or accepting Macs.

Calling into moral question the action of porting GNU code to the
Mac is ridiculous. Calling GNU software "his" is even more absurd.


tim endres - time@ice.com

Register your company in the Internet Business Pages!
 ...send email to "ibp-info@msen.com" for details...

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Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:79 comp.sys.mac.programmer:19709
From: d88-jwa@hemul.nada.kth.se (Jon Wtte)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:29:57 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In <1992Dec11.155851.14862@walter.cray.com> toma@baritone (Thomas Arneberg) writes:

>Can someone tell me how similar MPW is to the C-shell in Unix? I've been an

Not very.

>never PROGRAMMED on the Mac. I'm too hooked on vi, make, history (!), grep, 
>awk, pipes, shell scripts, and other features of Unix on my SparcStation.

Vi: not a chance unless you get an external editor.
Make: included
History: Everything you do, is saved in a window (worksheet) both input
         and output, fully editable. You can "execute" any line or
         selection.
Grep: Compiled GNU grep & egrep without problems, also "Find" does
      another similar kind of RE.
awk: Has been ported, as has perl.
pipes: Pseudo-pipes, using files as intermediaries I think. Can only
       go one way (and there+s no "pipe" system call)
Shell scripts: MPW scripts out the kazoo. MPW shell is not exactly like
               csh or sh, but at least as powerful.

What's on the horizon is AppleEvents for having scripts control
a bunch of stuff; will be way cool!

>Also, isn't it true that MPW is the only platform on which you can program
>in C++? If not, what other product is there? (A related question -- does
>anyone know if MPW C++ supports templates?)

Yes and no. Think C will probably be Think C++ next year. MPW C++ is
CFront 2.1, which has no templates. Use StreamEdit, the Mac variant
of sed :-)

Cheers,

							/ h+

-- 
 -- Jon W{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, Mac Hacker Deluxe --

  "On a clear disc, you can seek forever."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc