From: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Commitment, etc (long)
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:00:56 GMT
Reply-To: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Software Technology Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.

In article <AegzDqy00VB4AD028u@andrew.cmu.edu>, mh5r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mary Hart) writes:
|> Judy Leedom Tyrer writes:
|> **************************************************
|> The REAL PROBLEM that everyone needs to attack is the complete lack of 
|> commitment people in our society are capable of making.  We are a society
|> of little babies who scream and whine whenever things aren't going our way.

[A few lines deleted]

I second that vote!

How many times have we all seen people that enter into and exit marraiges
as quickly as they change wardrobes?  You know, they get to that part in
a marraige where the bloom is off the rose and choose to bag it.  I think
that some people have a motto of "If the going gets tough, quit" or "If
it feels good do it.  If it hurts, don't."  (I am not implying any particular
person or group).
 
[A few lines deleted]

|> The only way to solve this whole custodial parent/ child support/ joint
|> custody nightmare is to get rid of no-fault divorce and require couples to
|> live up to their marriage contracts the same way we make businesses live up
|> to their contracts.

[A few lines deleted]

You see about the same level of commitment in business, as well.  I don't
recall the exact statistic, but personal and business Chapter 11 filings
went up something like 200% during the 1980s.  In my parents day you would
work two or three jobs and pay back every cent you owed, if that's what
it took.  Today, the prevailing attitude seems to be one of walking away
from the financial commitment and protecting your personal wealth.  I
feel that bankruptcy should also have a greater penalty/stigma than it
currently does.  Of course, I know a few people who have made good on
their loans over time -- and they have every ounce of my respect for
having done so.  The same applies to a marraige.

And Mary writes:

|> No-fault divorce sounds wonderful, and suggesting that it be gotten rid
|> of sounds illiberal, but what we have is a situation where we have
|> rights without responsibilities.   Imagine: A parent is deciding whether
|> or not to divorce the other parent.  The man or woman is weighing things
|> in his/her mind.  The person thinks, well, I'm sort of unhappy (or maybe
|> even very unhappy).  On the other hand, maybe, with a lot of work, we
|> could work things out.  And it would be better for the kids if they
|> could have a situation where both parent are available (7 days a week).

Running away from the situation, in many of the cases, doesn't solve
the problem.  People can go from relationship to relationship full of
unresolved problems, and if they have to face up to a personal problem
and solve it they take the "easy" way out.  Of course this has affects on
their spouse, children, self-esteem and society in which they live.

This is not to say that someone shouldn't be able to leave an abusive
or intractable situation.  We once put up a neighbor whos husband was
indirectly threatening her and the daughter with a gun (in an upper-middle
class no less.  They were the neighborhood pariahs for months).  I
understand and support her decision to kick him out.  It's too bad that he
went that far off of the deep end, but he had many problems that he just 
wasn't dealing with.  But if a couple "just doesn't get along" then
they should be made to seek family counseling or whatever.  Spend the
money solving the root of the problem instead of prolonging it.
 
And please don't imply that all divorces are due to abusive situations,
either.  That means that fifty percent of all married people end the
relationship due to abuse, which is patently absurd.
 
|> Then the person thinks over what will happen if they go to court over a
|> divorce.  Well, it's not going to hurt financially so much- I may even
|> be better off.  (And maybe I'll get to dictate where the other spouse
|> can live.)  I'm not going to lose there.  I can have the kids whatever
|> amount I want.  My rights will be protected there.  I don't have
|> anything like losing the kids to worry about.  I have absolutely nothing
|> to lose.  So why should I  work hard to save the marriage?  I'm at least
|> as well off if I leave.

Every divorced friend I know is really hurt, emotionally, by the process.
They gloss over it during the divorce, but wonder for years what went
wrong and how they contributed to the problem.  Once again, they didn't
build up their esteem by working through a tough situation, they only
took the easy way out and ended up emotionally damaged in the process.
They do end up losing, somewhere along the way.  Yes, some people do come 
out of marraiges with a better self-image, but they usually (from my
experience) work on building it back up.  Some have expressed to me that
they now wish they did the work in the context of the marraige, rather than
using the divorce as the impetus for change.

| On the other hand, if the individual is not protected from all the
|> consequences of his/her actions, then that person may be inclined to
|> work a little harder.  

Someone will always want to "help" or "save" them from doing the right/
hard thing.  We, as a society,  seem to moving from the work ethic in
our relationships to the shirk ethic.  No need to deal with messy emotions
or have to look at what _you_ need to change.  Just cut off the source
of discomfort and move on the the next relationship.  Stick your head in
the sand and hope it will all go away.

And these comments apply to me, as well.  We had about eight wonderful years
together until we had kids, and then the dynamics of the relationship
changed big time.  We worked, and continue to work, through the problems.
It is quite uncomfortable for me (you know men and feelings...), and we reap
the benefits of a more lasting and permenant respect and love.  All of our
divorced friends used to look at me with crossed eyes when I stated that
divorce was simply not an option for us.  They would ask "but what if it
gets _really_ bad or you don't love each other any more?"  I think they 
still wonder why we have such a solid relationship/family.  It's spelled
H-A-R-D W-O-R-K.  It is not spelled Q-U-I-T.

Steven (sjk@strl.labs.tek.com)

Your disclaimer here.

"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid)  "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works."  (Me)
Newsgroups: misc.kids