HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aj834@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott A. Maehner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 3 Jan 1993 22:04:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aj834@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott A. Maehner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) says:

>In article <1993Jan2.173555.11515@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>
>>>Hmm.  How about:
>>
>>>	Expose students to whatever the hell they want to read.
>>
>>In some cases, this will mean a student reads nothing but Harlequin romance
>>novels or you-can-hear-the-dice-roll fantasy RPG novelizations the whole
>>time they are in school.
>
>That's right.  And if that's what they like, so what?  Or are you
>prepared to say that you know their tastes better than they?

I thought that at least one of things education should do is expose people
to ideas and things new to them...whether it's Shakespeare, Maya Angelou or
SF from other countries.  (It was a joy to read Solaris and discover a new
author, Lem, for me.)  How does someone knows what they like or don't like in
literature unless they try a few experimental bites off of the buffet
platter of education and see what takes?  Or are you prepared to say that
people shouldn't try to in some sense define their tastes in literature by
virtue of the classes they take?


>If a person pays $20,000 to attend classes for the sole purpose of
>enjoying himself, is it honest to give him anything other than what
>he wants?

A person can buy all the books that person wants to with $20,000, and
not have to go thru the bother or expense of getting an education, more
money for books thus more enjoyment from them.  Fancy that, eh?  

-- 
                    aj834@cleveland.freenet.edu
      I live in Iowa...I only go to Ohio daily for my e-mail.
           "Look, would it save you all this bother
             if I just gave up and went mad now?"
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16745 rec.arts.books:23436
From: jmf@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:06:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Dec29.190614.5827
Organization: DAS Purchasing, Harvard University

In article <1homreINN4si@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
->And for that matter, can any of you poxwit pundits give me a definition of
->"literary merit" that isn't circular?

Can you write in language that isn't circular?

If I like a book despite Yarvin's sneer of approval, it probably has literary
merit.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: linda@visix.com (Linda Thomas)
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:15:16 GMT
	<1992Dec18.015418.23388@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
	<168C1251F.YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu>
Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA

>>>>> On Fri, 18 Dec 92 02:38:14 EST, YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu said:

	YANJUNA> Issac Asmiov
	YANJUNA> James Tiptree Jr. (Again, we can always hope)

I don't think you're likely to see much out of either of these.  Didn't
Asimov die recently?  And Tiptree died several years ago, I think.  We will
miss them all...

As to my auto-buy list:

	Jack Chalker
	David Gerrold
	Nancy Kress
	Katherine Kurtz
	Julian May
	John Varley

My usually buy list:

	Stephen Donaldson
	Katherine Kerr
	Dan Simmons

There are probably others, but I can't think of them at the moment.

		-Linda

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Linda Thomas       linda@visix.com       ...!uupsi!visix.com!linda
 Visix Software     703-758-2720 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Klein bottle for sale ... inquire within.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:42:08 GMT

In article <1jzGLb#1WryC38qMX4P8F5ZLZ3K6kLS=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>Your notion of Campbell's influence is far too narrow and ridiculously negative.
>I suggest you read a good history of SF before we continue this discussion.
>Among other things, Campbell was the first editor in SF to insist on plausible
>science and *good writing*.  He did not merely `influence' SF, he *defined*
>SF as we know it today --- as a literature of plausible extrapolation centered
>on human reactions to technological change and challenge.  
>
>Even Campbell's most vociferous critics are operating, more than they realize,
>within the conceptual framework Campbell created.  His reinvention of SF was
>so sweeping, so complete, that it became invisible.  The only way to really
>grasp it is to read the ephemera of pre-Campbellian "scientifiction" --- not
>Verne and Wells and Doc Smith, but the Captain S. P. Meeks and Ray Cummingses
>and Otis Adelbert Klines.

Ironically, another thread mentions a space trilogy written by Campbell.  I've
read it.  It's no better than Ray Cummings.

The trouble with an argument like this is that it's unprovable.  You can say
"Campbell SF was a big jump from pre-Campbell SF" all you want, and give
examples, and have no way to be proven or disproven, because there's enough
subjective judgment involved that we can _prove_ it only in extreme cases, and
this one is not extreme enough.  (And I'd argue that that itself shows that
the jump, even if it exists, couldn't be _that_ big.)

Who defined SF in its current form is another unprovable; I could just as well
claim Star Wars defined SF today.  There are just so _many_ things that
influenced today's SF that you can't trace most specific innovations back to
single sources.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: f87-mol@alv.nada.kth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell (was: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi)
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:17:39 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

Eric Raymond writes:

>Was this a try at packing the most possible error and offensiveness into one
>paragraph?  Campbell liked to yank peoples' intellectual chains, sure, but he
>was no bigot --- Isaac Asimov has written eloquently on this point.

Actually, the way I remember it, Campbell forced his authors to write stories
on human supremacy -- the Foundation stories are an example of this. What
Campbell really wanted was stories about American supermen (thinly disguised as
Earthmen -- but always white, male and English-speaking) kicking the shit out
of outer space untermenschen. Asimov actually wanted to include non-human races
in the Foundation series, but Campbell said no. If that's not a bigot, then I 
don't know what is.

(various nonsense on the Dean drive deleted)

No, the Dean drive couldn't work. Trust me. I'm a physicist.

>Finally, about `political values'.  When SF loses Campbell's commitment to
>individualism, freedom, competence, and rationalism, it will be dead.  The
>New Wave tried jettisoning these supposed archaisms twenty years ago, and
>produced mostly garbage.  The SF mainstream he defined outlasted them; it will
>outlast the current `PC' furor; and it will almost certainly outlast *you*.
>
>`Critical opinion' has already *been* harsh on Campbell, it was never anything
>else.  He never cared --- he *delighted* in smashing this week's icons.  Be
>thankful that spirit is still alive in SF.
>-- 
>					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>

When American sf gets rid of the Campbell influence, it will be something to
celebrate. The fellow did the genre almost as much harm as Gernsback did.
Fortunately, his influence was limited to the U.S. -- in the rest of the 
world you could actually write literate sf even in the forties. We've come
a long way since.

Magnus Olsson (f87-mol@nada.kth.se)

Linguistic disclaimer: If you don't understand my writing, try writing in
Swedish sometime and you'll see how easy it is.
From: bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: 25 Dec 92 18:27:37 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises, Inc.

In article <PL78VB8w165w@west.darkside.com> max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis) writes:
>wpwood@queball.austin.ibm.com (Bill Woodward) writes:
>
>> That's right, _Dream_Park_, _Barsoom_Project_, and one other in the same
>> universe were exclusively Niven and Barnes.  I have both these books and
>> have tried to read them several times, but they just don't grab my att-
>> ention.  I didn't care for the short story, _Locusts_, either, which
>> was a Niven story that Barnes finished for him.
>
>Could the other one be _Descent of Anansi_?  Actually, it's interesting, 
>as it's never directly pointed out that these are in the same Universe 
>(except for obvious similiarities).  I thought _Descent_ was a _great_ 
>novel.

Descent IS in the same universe, but never really mentions Dream Park.  I
think the third book mentioned was California Voodoo.


-- 
 *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@wisdom.bubble.org          *
XY + XX = :-)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
From: wallace@dtc.hp.com (David Wallace)
Subject: Re: Why Heinlein's folk want babies
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:32:40 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Design Technology Center, Santa Clara, CA

In article <STEINLY.92Dec22151035@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>
>Ack, TEFL and SiaSL are probably two of the worst novels for a newbie
>introduction to Heinlein. Far better to start with his short stories
>from the 40s and his "juveniles" from the 50s, keeping in mind the
>context of when they were written. (This applies strongly to SiaSL,
>at the time it was very original, indeed it seems lacking now
>because so many of its ideas have permeated the culture).
>If you find his 40s shorts lacking in originality, chances are it
>is because a lot science fiction since has been based on some of
>the concepts he introduced - not always alone or first but well
>and effectively. 

This reminds me of the one about the person who, on first seeing a
performance of "Hamlet" said: "I don't see why people think this is such a
great play - why, it's just a whole bunch of cliches strung together!"

Yes, if you are going to judge RAH's originality, you need to view him
in the cultural context in which the bulk of his work was first
written. 

Dave W.
-- 
Dave W. 	(dwallace@dtc.hp.com)
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 09:58:44 CET
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson) writes:

> harit@kripalu.com writes:
> > 
> > Check out the other Niven/Pornelle colaborations: Lucifer's Hammer, Legond 
> > Herot (If you are willing to be scared), Footfall.
> > -- 
> 
> Yes, I agree with this. Niven/Pournelle books are not the same as Niven
> books. Many people like both, of course, but I find that I quite enjoy
> the collaborative efforts but can't finish most books by Niven alone. My
> perception is that Niven has these great ideas, and Pournelle adds stuff
> like plot and characterization. Your mileage may vary. Flames to /dev/null.

A sequel to _The Mote in Gods Eye_ is about to be published. It's title 
is _The Gripping Hand_. 


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:13:27 GMT

In article <C0382v.EMJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer) writes:
>drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes:
>| >How can Huckleberry Finn possibly be non-PC or anti-PC? It was,
>| >and is, one of the most strongly anti-racist books in American
>| >literature. I would think Huck Finn would be the one part of the
>| >canon the PC types were happiest with.
>| 
>| Irrelevant to the Politically Correct. The book contains the word "nigger",
>| therefore it is evil - never mind what the words surrounding it say.
>
>Apparently you haven't understood the words surrounding it if
>you actually believe that Clemens was advocating racism. Read Pap's
>'You call that a gov'mint?' speech again. You've missed the entire
>point of the work.


	One of us is badly mis-reading David's post.  Irony *can* be subtle,
but in this case it seems obvious he means no such thing.

My own thoughts,
tony
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bill Blum)
Subject: Re: easy-to-confuse author names (was Re: New Ace SF Specials)
Summary: Subtle
Organization: Techno-Zealots for a Better Future
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 07:32:43 GMT

In article <1hm9ktINNo2l@agate.berkeley.edu> goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.185218.1@fnala.fnal.gov> higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>)Once, I found myself in a consuite where the TV was playing ["Marooned"]
>)Nobody was paying any attention to it.  I fiddled with the
>)color controls on the TV set to suppress current from the green
>)electron gun. I couldn't get anybody to comprehend the joke, however,
>)much less laugh at it.   
>
>	I don't comprehend it either. Care to explain?
>

Take the -ed off of the title _Marooned_.  
When you supress the green gun, you'll get a redder picture (I think..not
sure, my TV doesn't have acontrol for the Green Gun.)

Maroon is a shade of Red.

It was hard for me to catch at first upon reading it...but when I re read
it at 2 am, everthing just gelled into one giant comprehensible ball.

-- 
Bill Blum     Purdue University     blumb@sage.cc.purdue.edu    FIAWOL!
-Even though my exGF broke up with me, and started dating my best friend
from high school, I'm still quite happy.  Why?  Well, in the eyes of my
guppies, I'm god.  At least SOMEONE is glad I exist. 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kerry@griffin.cuc.ab.ca (Kerry Lee)
Subject: Wild Cards in January
Organization: Debug Computer Services, Calgary, Alberta
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 07:51:22 GMT

A few months back in the Previews order book for comic books and
related items I say that the next _Wild Cards_ book is scheduled for
January.  This book is Turn of the Cards and is another solo book.  I
also saw another book called _Wild Cards: Card Sharks_ from Baen Books
(instead of Spectra like the rest of the series) that professed having
all new stories from the regular authors.  I was just wondering what
exactly Card Sharks was, and if it ment we'll have the next TWO books
of the series in our hands by the end of January.

Kerry


-- 
********************** kerry@griffin.cuc.ab.ca **********************
* "The violence of the murder            * WARNING: This message    *
*  and the vastness of the bosom         * warps space and time in  *
*  are entirely justified artistically." * its vicinity.            *
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack)
Subject: Re: Writers who get paid too little (used to be Co-authored books)
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:07:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.081805.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:
>Reviews have been of limited usefulness.  Opinions on the 'net have 
>been of limited usefulness.  The best finds seem to come from plowing 
>through book after book of dreck acquired by many and varied means.  
>But when that gem shows up...  It's enough to keep me on the quest for 
>another year at least.

The key to reviews is to try to reverse-engineer the likes and dislikes
of the reviewers.  Try to build up a map of what kinds of stories/books
the reviewer pans and picks and see where it corresponds to yours.  What
is needed is a consistent point of view by the reviewer and reasonable
database to draw on.

I have managed to build up filters for reviews by Siskel (bald guy) and
Ebert (grey hair, glasses) for movies.  For example, Siskel is very
serious about _film_ and the social import of the message and the
characters.  Ebert is serious about _film_ also, but likes mind candy
movies.

The reviews in magazines are harder to do this with, since there are
fewer reviews by each reviewer.  I have found Raymond's Reviews here on
the net to be quite valuable.  My tastes and his are not in congruence,
but I have a filter built up for his mini-reviews that allow me to make
a reasonable guess as to whether I will enjoy a book.

What woud be really interesting would be to draw up a list of about 20
books that you liked and hated and see how reviewers rated them.  You
would want them to span multiple sub-genres. 
 


-- 
Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov - I speak only for myself, unless blah, blah..
"You know, I think we're all Bozos on this bus."
"Detail Dress Circuits" "Belt: Above A, Below B" "Close B ClothesMode"
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16908 rec.arts.books:23750
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 4 Jan 1993 02:30:02 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan4.004048.12974@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>
>>If a person pays $20,000 to attend classes for the sole purpose of
>>enjoying himself, is it honest to give him anything other than what
>>he wants?
>
>Goodness, what degree granting institution represents itself as pandering
>to rich kids with money to burn so that they can enjoy themselves?

Goodness!  None, of course.

When you buy a stick of butter, does it say "HIGH IN CHOLESTEROL!" on the side?

>Yarvin confuses the role of student with the role of customer.

Just so.

c
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tom Godwin
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:02:23 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Diane Niazy mentions a novel by Tom Godwin titled Space Prison; I don't know
it, but I believe Godwin is the author of a novelette titled The Cold
Equations, which appeared in Analog-Astounding in the early 60s. It had an
enormous impact at the time because it dramatized the conflict between
emotion and necessity. In retrospect the story is a tissue of hokum, but at
the time it really jolted readers and writers alike. Diane's made me wonder
whatever became of Godwin...was it a pseudonym, or did he just realize that 2
cents a word wasn't a living wage?


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 23:48:02 GMT
Organization: (Evil Eye Creature from Mars, Inc.)
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written


Well, bitten too many times I don't trust auto-lists any longer, 
which is a shame. I believed in Benford, and then I read
"Tides of Light". I trusted in good old Anderson, and then
I read the "Time Patrol" collection. Even Michael T. Kube-McDowell
became a disappointment with "Exile".

Seems Tim Powers is one of the few writers that seems to exite
me book-by-book, but I'm a skeptic by heart :-).

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16843 rec.arts.books:23589
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:06:26 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

In article <1992Dec29.065706.26269@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Few claim that the 'canon' is best-ten or best-twenty or best-thousand
>list of literary works.  The canon is the reading list from which we
>draw to achieve our educational objectives.  There's some debate over
>which books are most efficacious, but the main source of the screaming
>is a disagreement over what the objectives should be.  Candidates include:
>
>Expose students to the works that shaped our culture.
>Expose students to good literary craftsmanship.
>Expose students to the most worthwhile/enjoyable/inspiring/younameit books.
>Expose students to a broad range of cultures and subcultures.
>Expose students to books dealing with their personal conflicts and concerns.
>Expose students to positive role models.
>Expose students to the works others will expect them to have read.
>Expose students to the works which enjoy/enjoyed the highest prestige.
>Expose students to books which reinforce our cultural norms.
>Expose students to books which challenge our cultural norms.
>Expose students to a broad range of literary styles.

A very interesting list, which should lead immediately to the questions:
Do we really want to do all these things?  Why?  Whatever goals we have,
is there any evidence that forced reading of a handful of books in high 
school and college accomplishes it?

>I could go on for a while.  Are we trying to teach good English? the
>history of ideas? self-respect?  One of my professors used to complain
>that Classical studies were historically saddled with the function of
>civilizing students -- and when they were dropped from the general
>curriculum, the job was dumped on the English department.  

A modicum of Greek and Latin was once considered de rigueur for upper class
Brits; so now everybody has to write papers on "Shared Archetypes in _Hamlet_
and _Batman_".  I wonder if it's even possible to wrangle students into a 
state of civilization through lit classes, if they don't read anything without 
them; if they do, I doubt it's necessary.  And are college English faculty,
whose job is not to read literature but to commit acts of literary criticism, 
capable of doing the wrangling?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bjones@denitqm.uswest.com (Brent Jones)
Subject: Looking for.....
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:20:07 GMT

I am searching for the following two '70s SF 'zines:

Scree #3, published by Duck Down Press in Montana

Unearth #3, published by Unearth in Boston, MA.

Anyone who has or knows someone who might have these two 'zines for sale,
please drop me a line; I've been searching for them for quite some
time. Thanks in advance!

--
Brent Jones, Lead Tech. Editor, U S WEST IT, bjones@denitqm.uswest.com
"of beautiful weeds that cannot hide from the farmer and helplessly have 
to watch the shadow of his simian stoop leave mangled flowers in its wake, 
as the monstrous darkness approaches."--V. Nabokov _Signs and Symbols_