From: mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Royal Roads Military College, Victoria, B.C.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:37:38 GMT


In article <1993Jan7.214154.220@netcom.com>, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
|> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes: >
|> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes: >|>
|> Malcolm: >|> >
|>  
|> >The road to becoming a Christian was not an easy one for me.  For many years, I
|> >was openly opposed to the Christian faith and had sought other ways to find 
|> >fulfillment.  Nothing did the trick for me.  Only salvation through Jesus Christ
|> >has been able to fill the great gap that was in my life.
|> 
|> But since you do not tell us what you tried, we do not know that you
|> tried all possible routes.  For example, you do not discuss whether
|> you studied philosophy, or whether you looked into any other
|> religions (besides Christianity).  Furthermore, you mention that
I tried New Age and looked into Buddism and TM.  And I still hadn't found what I 
needed.

|> you were "firmly opposed to the Christian faith" in the past but
|> do not explain why.  Were you brought up as a Christian?  If so,
|> consider the possibility that these early childhood teachings
|> are now resonating within you and for this reason you feel the
|> rightness of the teachings.  Thus, the teachings are not necessarily
|> right or wrong, but have an emotional strength because you associate
|> it with childhood, when all the difficult questions were not an
|> issue (e.g. being fed, being cared for, etc).
|> 
|> Many people rebel against their religious upbringing and return to
|> an even stronger version of it for this reason (e.g. Methodists
|> becoming Evangelicals, or Reform Jews becoming Orthodox or Lubavicher).
|>
No, I was not raised in a Christian household though I had previously attended
one or two services at long interspaced intervals (years) out of courtesy to
someone more than anything else.

|> [Some material deleted to save space]
|> 
|> Ah, so the crux of the matter is that your friends were too tied up
|> in their own interests.  This sounds to me that you were seeking a
|> community and did not find it among your previous group because they
|> were too "caught up in their own interests."  Abraham Maslow, the
|> famous sociologist, states that the need for community is so strong
|> that without it most people will choose to die.  You found the 
|> community in the Church, that's all.  The people there showed an
|> interest in you, and you needed a community to accept you.
|> 
I was not ignored by my friends because we still did things together.  They were 
not going through the same dilemmas that I was trying to tackle at the time.  
Death was among the least of their interests and any attempts to broach the 
subject were met with abject frivolity.  "Nobody lives forever."  "Do you want
to live forever?"  Well, as a matter of fact, I do.


|> The DANGER in this is that these people took you in because it is
|> their directive to "bring new sheep into the fold."  Inotherwords,
|> they did it not because you are a special and unique person with
|> qualities to benefit the group, but because the group is out to
|> take in anyone who shows an interest.  This is the same technique
|> that Reverend Moon's Unification Church uses on young people, and
|> it is called "love-bombing."
|>
Quite the contrary, we are told by the Bible that each and every one of us is
a vital part of the body of Christ.  Each of us has his or her own talents as 
given by God and that only as a family do we make up the whole and complete
body of Christ with Jesus as the head.

 
|> The DANGER in this is should you have any doubts in the premises
|> of the group, they will drop you lot a hot brick.  (Not immediately,
|> but if your doubts persist after heavy prayer sessions.)  This
|> is the danger to your mental health, because the community will
|> only allow you to express the community line, and not your own
|> true beliefs.  Back to Maslow, the need for self-expression is
|> not as important as the need for community, so you may not come
|> to that point quickly, if at all.  But Maslow's Hierarchy of
|> Needs has its pinnacle in self-actualization, and the Christian
|> Evangelical lifestyle and belief is in total opposition to this.
|> Therefore, you cannot be a psychologically healthy individual,
|> because you are caught down in rungs two and three and never make
|> it to the top.
|>
The Christian community accepts that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.  He is the
only way to the Father.  Anyone who does not believe this, is not a Christian.
Other matters of Church politics, and there are such, are matters that do not
affect my faith in God.  Wherever you have people, you will have politics.  The
centerpiece of the Christian "community line" is Jesus Christ.  If I were to
reject Jesus, I would expect my brothers and sisters to reject me.  But it is not
something done as easily as said.  As you mentioned, there will be a lot of 
prayer and time spent.  These things will be done out of love and for no other
motivation but love.  I have seen it in action and been a part of it.

And as for my own "true beliefs", I truly do believe that Jesus is the Son of
God.  He is Lord and Saviour.

  
|> >I rely on God's strength.  The evidence of His strength and devotion to me comes
|> >from the family of God that He has provided around me and the wisdom gained through His Spirit.  Are you saying that it is wrong for me to rely on my family and that it is more mentally healthy that I be an orphan alone in this world?  I
|> >don't mean to be insulting.  That is not my intention.  Please read on.
|> 
|> Read what I said above about the need for community.  It is dangerous
|> to not rely on others.  But my objection here is that your new
|> community may demand you sever ties with non-believers.  If your
|> family doesn't believe, you are either to work on bringing them into
|> the fold, or renounce them.  I believe renouncing one's family is
|> very unhealthy, unless you were unfortunate enough to grow up with
|> abusive parents.
|>
I've been a Christian for 6 years and I've managed to keep ALL of my family
and friends.  Renouncing families?  Not from what I've been a part of.  Quite the
contrary, I've been encouraged to keep my ties to unsaved family and friends,
even if they continually reject the message that I would present to them.  The
Christian family is NOT an exclusive club.  It's open to everyone.  The only
price to pay is your sin.  I also believe that renouncing your family is
unhealthy, not to mention unhappy.  That is why I will not renounce the family
of God.

 
|> Do you think it is mentally healthy to rely of "God's" strength if
|> there is no such thing?  What would you think of a 30-year-old who
|> still believed in Santa and the Tooth Fairy?  You and I know these
|> don't exist, that is acceptable for young children to believe this,
|> but not for adults.  Atheists believe it is just as unhealthy to
|> believe in an unverifiable being such as your "God."
|>
I rely on God because He is stronger than me.  I know myself better than you do.
I know my weaknesses and I know my failings.  There are some things that I have
tried to do and have failed and failed miserably at.  But, having since been
saved, He has enabled me to do these things.  What sort of things do you ask?
Public speaking for one.  I used to be one of those who could not speak in front
of a crowd of people.  Call it a psychological fear or what have you.  But God
has allowed me to overcome this and testify about Him before many others.  I still
have a ways to go, but I still learning from Him.  No Santa or Tooth Fairy ever
did as much for me.  This is a REAL change.  I did not imagine God did this and He
is NOT going to go away.

 
|> You say you have felt the "strength of God."  What if you felt your
|> own sense of self and simply misdefined it?  Again, I ask you read
|> Jung and Joseph Campbell, as they have a lot to say about the human
|> mind and the search for mysticism.
|> 
My own self-worth?  Maybe I did not feel very worthy.  But I certainly did come
to know my own worth when I realized that God loved me first before I even knew
Him.  God created me.  He gave to me all the abilities that I have, all the
talents that I have.  As a result, all that I am I owe to Him.  You can read
all the books you want, but what I believe in has come from first-hand experience.
And yes, I know, the Bible is a book too.  However, it is more than a mere book; 
it is the Word of God.  No theories or conjecture.  It is the Truth.  I know you
don't accept it as being so.  That is your call and you are free to make that choice.  I have to respect your choice.  God does.


|> >|> I find fault with a system that leads to:
|> >|>    - Sexual dysfuction due to a body/mind duality
|> >|>    - Sexual repression leading to high rates of child abuse
|> >|>    - A refusal to use one's gifts as given, in this case your mind
|> >|>
|> >God invented sex.  God created man and woman and they were meant to have sex to
|> >procreate the race.  There was nothing dirty about sex until Satan perverted it into a form of abuse.  Sex was intended by God to be beautiful and it is between
|> >lovers.  IMHO, it is people and some Christians who have wrongly interpretted
|> >sexual immorality as being any type of sex at all, or even thinking of sex.  Face
|> >it (I have), the sexual drive is part of our human makeup.  God has taught me to
|> >accept this part as being a part of myself and He has taught me how to control it.
|> >Not eliminate it.  I can't.  I know that.  But I can control it and I have for
|> >these 31 years of my life.  I am not ashamed of it.
|> >   Use of one's gifts as given . . . yes, as given by God.
|> 
|> I believe you have ignored the issue I brought up here.  Perhaps I
|> did not explain myself clearly enough.  Christianity has led to
|> a lot of sexual repression and abuse.  There is less of this among
|> Jews and Hindus, because their religions do not have a "Satan" making
|> sex dirty.  That is my objection: we are sexual beings, and the
|> Christian teachings puts the believer at odds with his or her own
|> body.  You speak of having to "control" your sexuality.  This is another
|> double bind.
|> 
The Christian teachings reveal the depths of our carnal nature.  It does not
deny it.  Throughout the Bible, it teaches to restrain from sexual immorality.
There are carnal acts that the Bible does not condone, among them are bestiality
and necrophilia.  These adverse desires are part of our carnal nature.  Are you
saying that we should be more in tune with our carnal nature and let these sorts
of feelings come to the forefront?  I would assume that this is NOT what you
meant.  I would not insult you in this way.  The point that I'm trying to make is
that not all desires of the flesh were intended for us by God.  We were meant to
be a monogamous race, one man for one woman.  Sex is meant to be an expression of
love and an act of life-giving between two mates.


|> As to using your gifts, your statement "yes, as given by God" says
|> that you will not use them for your, or society's best uses, but
|> as you are instructed by the Church.  This, once again, is dangerous,
|> because you are denying your abilities in any way you are 
|> instructed to. 
|>
God has given me my abilities and talents and to make the best use of them in
His service.  I still pay my taxes. Giving my money to the Church, I don't consider a waste of funds.  Our Church is Protestant.  We don't spend our funds on stained glass windows or golden chalices.  But we do visitations to sick friends and relatives and provide rides to people who don't have cars.  Or if someone needs help cleaning their yard or moving their furniture and stuff to a new home, we are there.  Do you consider these things contrary to God's will?  Do you consider these things to be a detrim


ent to society?  I obey God.

 
|> >|> >God loves, Man kills.
|>
|>  [ Much stuff deleted here for the sake of keeping this post shorter ]
|> 
|> I don't think you understood what I said.  You said you don't hate
|> yourself, but my contention is that these teachings set up an
|> unconscious hatred.  You are part of Man, correct?  And you
|> say Man kills?  Then you are part of that, and thus introduce
|> self-hatred, and this is unhealthy.  The Cohen book explains
|> clearly how the Christian teachings set up self-loathing.  It
|> is mostly unconcious, but it is there.
|> 
I didn't realize how much fuss my sign-off moniker would invoke.  The essence
of what I am expressing in those four words is this:  It is God that loves and it
is Man that kills all that God loves.  God gave us His Son.  Men crucified him.
God gave us His love and we've tried to kill that.  God gave us life and we 
kill each other.  Yes, I am part of mankind.  And I am a killer, like all of
mankind.  It is in my nature.  I don't hate myself for it because I know that 
there is a way out.  God has shown me a better way.  Besides, God loved me 
first and loved me more than I could myself.


|> How do you know you could not love another person without "God's
|> love?"  Your claim is untestable.  I love another person and am
|> not aware of this.  Are you saying I do not love this person?
|> 
I've had other relationships and they did not work out.  I did not know what
real love was.  But it was not until I knew of God's love, that I was able to love
myself and love another.  Of course, I'm not talking about the frivilous "love"
of a one-night stand (which I call lust rather than love).  God taught me a
sacrificial form of love that you give to another unconditionally and unendingly.
It is a love meant to last an eternity.  In human terms, that type of love is not
comprehensible.  I can only try to emulate that type of love but having seen it in
the example of Jesus Christ.

I am sure that you are capable of love (No insult intended).  God's love is a
love so strong that He would knowingly send His own Son to die for us even 
though we despised.  That is the kind of love I am referring to.



|> >From what you've read so far, Maddi, do you conclude that I am a happier person
|> >now than when I was before?  Has Christianity benefitted me, do you think?  Or
|> >am I better off never having known God at all?
|> 
|> I do believe Christianity has benefitted you in the short run.  I
Thank you.


|> do not know what the long run will bring.  I feel that Christianity
|> as a social institution has done a lot of harm, both in the past and
|> in the present.  I mentioned some of the problems of Christianity,
|> in particular, sexual repression, intolerance, refusal to accept
|> other belief systems in a multi-cultural society, which leads to
|> social polarity.  Christianity has brought the dumbing-down of
|> our science curriculum, which has hurt our country's ability to
|> compete on a global level.  It has brought rampant overpopulation
|> because many Christian groups oppose birth control.  It has 
|> destroyed the ability of many adherents to think for themselves.
|> It has destroyed families in some congregations, where adherents
|> are told to reject non-believers.
|> 
God gave us His Word.  We're not very good at doing what we're told.  And more
than once, men have used the Christian name to further their own ends.  I say to
you, look past the stained glass windows and the high steeples.  Look past the
facade of human politics in religion and seek out the one and only God.

I am a Computer Scientist and my faith has not "dumbed-down" my education.  Over-
population occurs in countries where there is little Christian faith.  And is
Christianity to blame for the plight of the poor?  The poor were there before
Jesus came down and as He said, "You will always have the poor among you".
Destroyed families?  Not mine, even though most members of my family are not
saved and may never be saved.  I have to accept that, God does.   


|> Christianity has also brought some good.  However, I firmly believe
|> that the good it has brought is also provided by other religions
|> and philosophies.  Therefore, one the whole, I believe Christianity
|> causes more harm, and should be supplanted by a healthier system.
|> 
|> Regards, Maddi
|> 
|> -- 
|> Maddi Hausmann                       |  The Truth is still The Truth, forsooth 
|> madhaus@netcom.com                   |  Even if believing It you refuse
|> Centigram Communications Corp        |  Complete disproof's uncouth and moot
|> San Jose California  408/428-3553    |  A Fundie's brain is dead.
|> 

I think you're giving God a bad rep for the way that mankind has screwed up
trying to carry out His commands.  God gave us the earth to use and abuse and
we have done far more of the latter as I'm sure you'll agree.  Even the Christian
religion as it is today with its hundreds of denominations was not God's
original intent.  It only illustrates the degree to which we've misinterpretted
His meaning.

Put all of that aside.  What really matters is whether or not Jesus Christ is
your personal Lord and Saviour.  Look past the religion and seek out God.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:26061 alt.atheism:25878