From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Rob's Law
Date: 8 Sep 1992 13:32:26 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com writes:
...

> This doesn't make sense to me.  Either you are a Jew who follows the
> Law to it's very last letter (as you seem to be telling me, Laura, and
> others) or you are showing a form of hypocrisy.

That Jews aim to follow the literal letter of the law is a common
misconception.  The Torah is not taken literally in every case,
for example, "eye for an eye" means "pay restitution equal to the
value of an eye" as continuation of the previous verses.

>  If you believe so
> stongly in holding so tightly to the Torah's every word why do you not
> give "blood" sacrifices?

Because they can't be brought today.  You can't tell a person
to get an oil change every 3000 miles if he doesn't have a car.

>  Why do you not seem to follow the
> commandments of "stoning" others for thier sins?

Only a duly ordained Sanhedrin, which we lack today, can impose
stoning and other forms of capital punishment.  Even then, it's very
difficult to get a capital conviction.

> Do you practice a diluted form of Judaism or is the Torah "truth"?

The Torah is truth.

> At the present I fail to see your form of Judaism as true Judaism.  Is
> there some "real" reason you and others now only obey 85% of the Torah
> (made-up %)?

Well, for one thing, a fair percentage of the commandments only apply
when there's a standing Temple.  Others apply to Cohanim, others
to women, others to non-Levites only, others in Israel, others
to a Jewish king.  We try to keep those commandemnts which apply to us.

> I know why *I* believe this is true, but you would probably disagree.
> I believe that the REAL reason blood sacrifices have ceased is because
> for a Jew to shed blood for the remission of sins *today* would be a
> most henious deed.  The Temple was destroyed to prevent this form of
> sacrilege continuing.  Yeshua paid the ULTIMATE price for our sins, to
> sacrifice today would be like slapping God in the face for his most
> precious of gifts: His Son.

Temple sacrifices continued for decades after Jesus' death.

> When Jews start practicing the ENTIRE Torah, then I'll have more
> confidence that what you say about Jews needing to return to Judaism
> (as an RJ) is a faithful representation of your beliefs.  Until then
> you seem to be advocating a different Judaism than your forefathers
> practiced (before Christ).

Well, we still keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws, the clothing laws,
the family laws, men wearing tefillin (the small black boxes),
tithing, daily prayer, fringes on our square garments, reading the
Torah, etc.  These issues were discussed before the time of
Jesus, up through the present time.  You find Hillel and Shammai
discussing them, and you find extensive moral lessons in the
"Ethics of the Fathers" which is found in orthodox prayerbooks.


> Don't you find it odd in the least that there has NOT been traditional
> Judaism sice the time of Jesus Christ?

I contend that there has been.


>   Could it be that something
> really did happen to change the course of history?

The Romans destroyed the Temple and sent the Jews into exile.  Soon
after, Paul formed a popular religion based on the messianic
aspirations attributed to Jesus, whom the Romans and their
quisling Sadducee regime had considered dangerously subversive.

Dictatorial regimes (like the ex-USSR) are always suspicious
of those who answer to a higher moral authority than the state,
especially those who preach said values.


> While I sincerely thank you for your perspectinve on Judaism,
> especially in light of my inheritance, I cannot follow you or your
> ways when they seem so incongruious with what you seem to be
> advocating (i.e. obeying the entire Torah... nothing less).

Again, the "every literal word" is not now, nor was it ever,
the way Jews have understood all of the Torah.  This comes
as a surprise to those who associate "fundamentalist" with
"literalist."

R

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM