HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir)
Subject: Re: The MOW Platform (was Re: NOTICE - Details...)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:51:55 GMT

In article <Bz8pn4.Ew7.1@cs.cmu.edu> hopkins@cs.cmu.edu (Don Hopkins) writes:
>tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
>
>   If you want political reasons why it is included, refer my previous
>   post.  The legalization of sodomy is based on the same part of the
>   constitution as freedom of choice.  You overturn that part of the
>   constitution and you strike down the laws that protect us too.
>
>I know someone whose pet theory is that gay men support the freedom of
>choice out of a misogynistic desire to control women.  He's a wanna-be
>separatist lesbian.  Is this a "standard" separatist lesbian theory?
>That certainly isn't why I support freedom of choice, but he claims
>it's the underlying reason anyway (so according to his theory, my gay
>housemate who risks his well being every saturday to escourt women
>into abortion clinics is really going out of his way to express his
>deep seated misogyny, even if he doesn't realize it). 

Gee, your friend is setting up a no-win situation. No matter what you do in
that case you are getting involved in the mysogynistic control of women.
Helping someone follow through with something that they want to do is not
controlling them.

Scott

-- 
Scott Moir  /  Satyr on IRC    ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
B4 f t+ w g k+(+!) s+ m r p+    \/\/  # "What's that?"
These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 03:02:51 GMT

In article <1h32j3INNi49@mizar.usc.edu>
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>My first article?  Someone had misquoted a Dorothy Parker
>quip, so I corrected it.

Over a year ago and you haven't changed a bit! :-)

<> Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself.
<> -- Rita Mae Brown
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Ken Reeves, first black, openly gay mayor in the US
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:40:46 GMT

> prufrock@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scot N Gibson) writes:
>
>The article mentions that Reeves is one of three openly gay mayors in
>the country.  Anyone know who the other two are?

I'm aware of previous -- if not current -- G/L mayors of
West Hollywood and Santa Cruz in California, and Key West,
Florida...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52798 alt.politics.homosexuality:8086
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: RE: "Playing the Race Card"
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:08:00 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: NIST

[]

An article entitled "Blacks, Jews forge joing political agenda" appeared
in the December 16 Miami Herald.  The American Jewish Congress and
the National Rainbow Coalition (Jesse Jackson's group) joined in a political
coalition seeking an end to ethnic atrocities in Bosnia and forced 
repatriation of Haitian refugees.

From the article:

     "On the agenda are international issues important to Jewish and black
people:  "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia-Hercegovina;  famine and strife in
Somalia; and human rights violations in Haiti.
     "Domestically, they seek statehood for the District of Columbia; anti-
hate crime legislation; and passage of the Religious Freedom Restoration
Act.  That act would undo a 1990 Supreme Court decision that made it
easier for govenment to justify laws that effectively discriminate
against some religious practices.
     ""The rise of racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, Asian bashing,
Hispanic bashing, homophobia, Arab-American bashing and fear are too real
and toolife-threatening to be ignored,"  Jackson said.  "We must
choose hope and healing over hurt and hate."
..
     "The agenda also calls for:

A family and medical leave act.

Protecting a woman's right to abortion.

Support for U.S. relief efforts in Somalia.

No constitutional amendment mandating a balanced federal budget.

Waiting periods before handgun purchases.

GAY RIGHTS LEGISLATION (emphasis mine).

Legislation allowing people to register to vote as they apply for a driver's
license."

...


Isn't this all really icky, though.  I mean, very few of these are really
black or Jewish issues.

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52454 alt.politics.homosexuality:8002
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1gdrgoINN9dp@hp-col.col.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:18:45 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1gdrgoINN9dp@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

   Let me look at this from another angle; do we have to teach that it
   is OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>, or can it be 
   viewed as not OK/normal/natural/<insert your choice of words>,
   as long as we are taught to respect a person's right to be different
   and unique without being persecuted for it? Do we have to believe 
   what you want us to believe as long as differences are tolerated, 
   or must our thoughts be 'fixed' to view homosexuality as OK? 

There are two issues here, and it's not an either/or thing...

Yes, we should teach that people shouldn't be persecuted for
differences of beliefs.

Then we come to the specific question of whether homosexuality should
be viewed as "OK".  You have to understand that you are arguing from a
completely different level from those in this newsgroup who are gay.

I hate to always bring up the racial argument, but it's true.  You can
debate whether sexuality (like race) is "ok" or not.  It's a fine
intellectual argument that can go on for a long time.  But in the
meantime, we who are gay (or black, or asian, or whatever) are sitting
here KNOWING that we are natural, "ok", normal, etc.

We've known it for a long, long time.  Centuries, in fact.

So it's pretty frustrating that practically every conversation we get
into with a straight person (who doesn't have a lot of experience with
sexuality issues), we have to justify our existance again, and accept
being "tolerated", if we're lucky.  To be told (as I was told by my
sister-in-law last week), "Oh, I treat my gay friends the same as
everyone else, even though I think what they're doing is wrong."

Really, it's nice that we're tolerated.  It's preferable to being
completely rejected.  Just don't expect us to invite you to our
housewarming.
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: smith@mscf.med.upenn.edu (Amelia T. Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: <None>
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:16:31 GMT
Organization: Medical School Computer Facility, UPENN

In article <1992Dec17.043412.25161@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
[Mara's cogent analysis deleted...] 
> I don't think I'd disagree too much with what you said, but it sounds
> awfully bloodless.  After all, I'm using words to explain a fact (I don't
> have many close female friends, though I am certainly friendly with women),
> and not to attempt any explanation for same.
> 
> Perhaps I just haven't found the right woman yet. :-) :-)
 
STEVE!!!!!

I'm crushed.

Amelia, sending "smiley"s to the humor-impaired.

                   ----- Amelia T. Smith -----
University of Pennsylvania     Internet: smith@mscf.med.upenn.edu 
Opinions: MINE! MINE! MINE!    NBCS: H-f-t-w++d-s+(+)k+p++e++g+
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Date: 19 Dec 92 18:43:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47540
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Dec19.061700.15968@dvorak.amd.com> tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett) writes:
>In article <47511@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>>I am very out at work, but Intel is
>>a large company and so lots of people not only don't know I'm gay, they
>>don't know me, period.
>
>Well, Mark... how about putting a pink triangle in place of the "i"...
>assuming you have one on your badge.  Mine fits nice and snug in the
>square in the middle of AMD's "a" :)

Actually, I am trying to get permission to officially do just that.  As
the founder of the not-very-active Intel lesbian, gay, and bisexual
employees group, I have been looking for ways to increase queer and bi
visibility at work.  This suggestion has been given to the human
resources lawyer (who is on our side!).

Until then, I just wear a pink triangle everyday and keep a triangle-
shaped rainbow flag on my jacket.

btw: did you use a sticker or just deface the darn badge?

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: hipoyhon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Harri I Poyhonen)
Subject: Re: Top GLB Fiction
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:33:47 GMT

In article <1gt9erINNm57@mizar.usc.edu> hbaldwin@mizar.usc.edu (Harry Baldwin) writes:
...
>Jean Cocteau: any of his films. Although not overt, they are saturated with his              own gay sensibility

	Also his White Book. And Jean Genet's Querelle, Roland Barthes's
	Soirees de Paris.

>Plato: The Symposium

	and Phaidros.

>Shakespeare: Richard II

	Also Christopher Marlowe's Edward II.

	Alan Hollinghurst's The Swimming Pool Library is also well worth
	reading -- and a bit more modern than most of the aforementioned.

	Harri
-- 
*     Harri Poyhonen email: hipoyhon@cc.helsinki.fi or hipoyhon@csc.fi
*     finger: hipoyhon@klaava.helsinki.fi
*     "All cynicism masks a failure to cope." John Fowles
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Motss food
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:53:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec18.185332.2356
Organization: insert anything here


	There's nothing like going down a a freahly-baked cruller.


	(Well, I *am*!  OK - so it' snot fresh, who has time to be picky!)

BBC< typing with his mouth full,..
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 20:12:56 GMT

mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:

>Amen.

Thank you.

>And I notice that neither JNS nor thaaang (did I count
>right?) suggested lavender.  My thesaurus offers:

Lovely idea; we simply *must* make sure the groups don't clash, though.

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You're like one of those... 'Cabbage Patch' creatures...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: fritzs@microsoft.com (Fritz Sands)
Subject: Sodomy charges
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:06:00 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

There has been an assertion on the Microsoft bbs that there are very, very
few arrests and prosecution for consensual adult sodomy in the modern US,
even where it is illegal.  Reference to the Hartwick (sp?) case in Georgia
did not deter the maker of the assertion, since it was only one case.

I would like some sort of estimate of the number of sodomy cases that
are generated, if such data are available.  Please e-mail them to me
(fritzs@microsoft.com), since I am in a crunch mode and am usually
unable to browse soc.motss on a regular basis these days.

    Fritz

    fritzs@microsoft.com
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Aladdin
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:19:17 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris) wrote:
>Does anyone know which songs from Aladdin he wrote before he died?

It would be a neat trick if it weren't all of them.

Oh!  Now I see what you meant.  Maybe someone has the CD?

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: czmt@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Season Marie Taylor)
Subject: Re: Castro Street (Re: Two threads:  women posting and "cures" and its spinoffs)
Organization: University of North Carolina
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:47:14 GMT

In article <mattm-151292101228@mcmelmon.apple.com> mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>In article <168BC1112A.TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu>, TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu wrote:

>> M*lm*n

>Oh, how *cute*!  I was wondering when I would be promoted to the
>"vowels are now substitution symbols" rank.  Up 'til now, it's just
>been variations on a spelling bee.

I think "Melonhead" is much more suitable.

season, feeling a little bitchy right now


-- 
                     ____
Season Taylor        \  / "we are one body/we are one spirit/one breath/one
czmt@gibbs.oit.unc.edu\/   dream of life and death/.../one sex"
(yes, as in the 4)                          -sophie b. hawkins
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: pettit@cs.unc.edu (Cynthia Pettit)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:13:21 GMT

In article <1g5uoqINN9ps@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
|> rizzoe@FASECON.ECON.NYU.EDU (Emily Rizzo) writes:
|> >Joseph Fernandez, Chancellor of the New York City Board of Education, is
|> >taking a lot of heat (and has even received death threats) for his support
|> >of the "Children of the Rainbow" curriculum.  This curriculum introduces as
|> >early as first grade the concept of tolerance for all families, including
|> >gay and lesbian families.
|> 
|> This is something I'm not comfortable with.  (the "Children of the Rainbow" curriculum) 
|> I don't feel it is appropriate to be reading "Heather has 2 mommies" to a 
|> first-grader.  Because of the religious strings that are attached to the
|> whole subject, it should *not* be taught in the public schools, especially to
|> kids who are so young.  What if it directly contradicts the religious
|> upbringing of the parents?  

When do we start teaching children to tolerate?

Well, I guess first grade is too young.  I mean, 6-year-olds are too young to
understand that tolerence is wrong...  <sardonic tone>

Cyn
-- 
	"It's not about driving down rt 66 and stopping at the Holiday Inn!
		It's about *adventure*!!"
				---Richard P Feynman
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52840 alt.politics.homosexuality:8103
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:21:32 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.homosexuality

In article <1gncmtINNscs@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
> rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden) writes:
> > But don't expect us to whoop for joy when we're still considered
> > "unnatural" and "abnormal".
> > Of course we're working for acceptance.  Tolerance is an important
> > first step, but it is only the first step...
 
> With "you can't please everyone" in mind:
> Do you accept religion's "right" (for lack of a better word) to teach 
> that homosexuality is an "abomination" (I think that's the word I've
> heard used) against God, and is therefore immoral and evil? 

A religion may offer whatever teachings they like, our constitution is very
clear about that freedom. However members of religions must still abide by
the laws of the land and when religious teachings are at odds with civil law
the conflicts are not always easy to solve.

What a religion may not do is work to effect change in civil law based on
their teachings. Check your Tax code out walter, it is striclty and 
specifically prohibitted, yet it is done all the time.

By the way, do you accept a religions right to set individual preachers up
as the sole direct channel of Gods will, do you accept a religions right
to lead its members into mass suicide at the whim of its leader?
Do you remeber that paragon of christian virtue Jim Jones and his *peoples
church*? Did they have the right to teach what they did, and end up
destroying a thousand lives ?

LUX ./. owen


--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
	Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes)
Subject: Re: Devil Metals's
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:21:28 GMT

In article <71642@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Steve Dyer writes:
>>Anyway, Charlie, unless your tastes run to the entire collected works of
>>"Tangerine Dream" and "Megadeth", I doubt you'd enjoy George's old record
>>collection. :-)
>
>I am *NOT* into Megadeth. While heavy metal may sound all alike to
>those not fond of any part of it, believe me -- there are major
>differences. One of the things I like about Metallica is James
>Hetfield's interesting, intelligent and INTELLIGIBLE lyrics; they
>don't have a great deal of competition in this field, IMHO.

well i'm pretty sure steve wouldnt realize his interesting choice
of "incorrect" metal band for you george...

megadeth is fronted by dave mustaine, one of metallica's original
members and lyracists...
you dont know it yet, but you are a megadeth fan ! Moooo hahahahahahahaha!


the lyrics of metallica material may not be those of james.
lars, kirk and cliff have also contributed a lot of lyrical work.

or are you saying james' singing/presentation of lyrics is what
you find intelligible?
Dave Mustaine was also the vocalist on much early material.

weeeeeeeeeeee, now this is a motss conversation i could have fun with :-)

   -ken, quite curious though why steve did pick megadeth...

           Dear mother
           Dear father
           Every thought i'd think you'd disapprove
           Curator
           Dictator
           Always censoring my every move
           Children are seen but are not heard
           Tear out everything inspired...
           
                -Dyer's Eve (Hetfield, Ulrich, Hammet)

-- 
   - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada    [43.47N 80.52W]
         kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca   postmaster@thinkage.com   thinkage!kgdykes
         harley-request@thinkage.on.ca             kgdykes@math.uwaterloo.ca
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.*
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 11:37:17 GMT


In article <1992Dec15.201217.20434@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu
(Nelson Minar) writes:

>In article <1992Dec15.012442.27914@macc.wisc.edu>

>>soc.motss.politics
>>   Discussions of interest to our political lives.  Phobes
>>   not welcome *at all*.  No debates over "is it OK to be
>>   queer?"

>This won't work.  

Doom-sayers on all sides.

>We can't prevent people from posting to a
>newsgroup.  People will inevitably turn it into a flame pit.

What ever happened to bright prospects in this life?  People
who think in terms of "inevitable" *make* it inevitable.
The fact is, it's perfectly evitable, but that would require
the exercise of certain energies.

Not being able to stop people is a canard.  There are
antisocial people everywhere; why let *them* dictate our
lowest common denominator?

>>soc.motss.politics.documents
>>   The famous Bryan Blumberg offerings, letters received and
>>   sent, manifestos, texts of laws pro and con, newspaper
>>   and other media accounts, etc.

>this might work, if it were moderated.  No discussion at
>all.  I still prefer the name "soc.motss.info".

If a moderator will come forward and do the job, that would
be fine.

"Info" is *considerably* too vague.

>>soc.motss.coping
>>   The coming-out stories, dealing with parents, dealing
>>   with other individuals who have important roles in our
>>   lives, including us ourselves.
>>soc.motss.misc
>>   The traditional fare, from opera stars to recipe books to
>>   movie and pop-music icons to rodents in the rectum.

>I don't think these two are separable.

Maybe not.  Let's hear your alternative scheme.

>I like the idea of a newsgroup for the discussion of the
>political ramifications of homosexuality.  But please put it
>in the the talk.politics hierarchy, where it belongs, not in
>the soc heirarchy.  "talk.politics.homosexuality" seems to
>be a fine name, although "talk.politics.motss" would work.

The talk* hierarchy has nowhere near the station of the soc*
hierarchy, in terms of distribution (especially abroad) and
expiration time.  

More importantly, though it's only my own view, I won't read
a talk* group; too much noise.  For me, discussion of LGB
politics would come right back to soc.motss*.

>In any case, I think it will be a complete flame pit and
>largely useless to people who are doing work on gay rights.
>But the similar situation never stops
>talk.politics.abortion.

If we are creative people, we can do better, surely.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Xref: sparky soc.motss:52340 talk.religion.misc:23833
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: A Mother Speaks
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:25:12 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1g5ntrINN5h@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> In article <1992Dec8.190559.6707@urbana.mcd.mot.com>, dhammers@pacific.urbana.mcd.mot.com (David Hammerslag) writes:
# # I do not think that gay-bashing can so easily be laid at the Churches door
# # step.  
# 
# Either the Church has a social influence or it does not.   If the Church
# claims to influence the morals of its adherents, then it can't escape
# responsibility when they use its condemnations as an excuse for violence.
# 
# You can't have it both ways.

Why do you assume that gay-bashing is based on religion?  The most
"virulently and vocally against homosexuals" men I've met don't
attend church, and are usually quite hostile to any form of organized
religion.

# # Churches often speak out against pornography, yet we don't see assaults
# # on pornographers.
# 
# On the contrary, here in SF we have had more than one case of the police
# breaking into the studios of photographers that they considered to be
# pornographers, confiscating their equipment and film, and essentially
# depriving them of their livelihood.
# 
# jon.

When did they beat them up?  Besides, that's your allies, the 
government, doing that.  How many pornographers have been beat
up by "porn-bashers"?

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: soc.motss