From: adri0001@student.tc.umn.edu (Wouldn't you like to know)
Subject: Student Dicipline
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:26:27 GMT

In article <39913.2B5E1A41@puddle.fidonet.org> Sheila.King@f315.n103.z1.fidonet.org (Sheila King) writes:
>Carol,

>-> CH> Shiela:  I really like this idea...but can you explain how you
>-> get them to CH> sign it....do you take time from class when they are
>-> disrupting to get CH> their signature.  Since it is obviously very
>-> effective, I'd assume that CH> once or twice a diversion they no
>-> longer continue because they are CH> "signing" to the offense, right?
>-> But, please, could you narrate an CH> example infraction and your
>-> response witht the book?  (Can you tell I'm CH> a "learn by example"
>-> person?) Thanks
>

I was in the process of responding to a previous message when I got cut off
and lost the changes I had made to the post I was making.  Anyway, I guess
I'll just do my best to say what I was saying in that post.

First of all, I'd like someone to tell me what the final "objective" is...
what is so effective?  Are you trying to create a classroom of obedient
children that will come to class, hopefully pick up a few essentials from
what is taught, and then leave your class feeling enlightened?  I do not
believe in this form of diciplinary action.  Don't you see how damaging it
is?  You have placed yourself into a position of authority, and most teachers
are misunderstanding the idea of being an authority figure for students.  We
are not here to teach students how to sit noiseless in class and just take
what we throw at them...not at any level.

I'm taking quite a risk by posting publically this whole idea that I have for
teaching and keeping students interested because there aren't as many teachers
out there that will receive the idea well.  I have always experienced students
that want to learn, and even when they don't, I'll find some way to get them
to see why it's important to WANT to learn...that's not to say that they'll 
learn what I'm trying to teach, but somewhere, we'll find a common ground 
where they'll want to learn something...that's always been my objective.  The
whole idea of diciplinary action such as this is destructive to the child. 
Most kids, if you ever take the time to listen to them, find it humorous to 
have detentions..in my own experience, they tend to see it as just another
school thing to do before they get to go home...it's not productive in any way
and with real "problem" children, it doesn't work.  I've come to realize that
the problem here doesn't always come down to the kid...it comes down to the
teacher...I'm always adapting to suit the kids I help -- I'm almost never
going into a class expecting to do what I had planned the night before...I
go in ready for surprises and getting "side-tracked" from the entire "goal" I
was originally aiming at.  I am an innovative teacher of students...they 
listen to me because I get them to see the value in the lesson, be it math, be
it english...whatever...I'm not going to always cover what "I'm supposed to" in
a day of class, but I'm sure that when dealing with junior high, and even when
you get to high school, as long as the kid knows how to read, write, and do
basic math, you've got yourself a mind, not a bowl ready to be filled with
what _you_ think should be in it...I believe in developing the mind and not
the bowl.  Sure, it's not easy to do, but it's the only thing I can do if I'm
going to be a part of reforming the educational system here in thie country.
I also probably don't have the "experience" many of the teachers here have,
but maybe that fresh mind is what makes it all worth it to me....

>Primarily the things that concern me are (1) students being on time to
>class, and (2) avoiding class disruptions.

In regard to 1) why is it so important for a student to be on time for class?
The obvious answer is that the student can disrupt the class when he/she
enters, or that he/she will "miss out" on all the important class discussion
that will be taking place while he/she was out.  You see, more than once, I've
run into a case where a student has been late for class because he/she was
involved with another class...sometimes, it's not with a teacher, but with
another student.  Regardless, I have seen teachers take action that I simply
would not...moving from on class to another in this notion of structured
learning is simply killing the student's mind.  It's becoming more and more
destructive to creativity and the promotion of THOUGHT.  Yes, sometimes,
a student is going to be late for a trivial reason, be that what it may, but
it's not always the case.  And even in those cases, it would be my position
not to repremand the student for being late for class...it's petty, and most
of the time, it doesn't really mean that much more for the child's education.
Somewhere, we have gotten lost in the notion of having control over the
children we teach...the only control that is to be had is the control they
exercise over their desire to learn...it lies in them, not in the teacher.
I have had frustrating encounters with students before, where they simply
won't make it on time...that's when I TALK to the student, not give that
student a check...not deter him/her from being late...I'm working more
towards figuring out what's the real reason for being late.  I take a very
personal approach to the entire issue, and some if not most teachers would
find it somewhat different in that the conversation I tend to have is quite
informal and lose...the student can say whatever he/she wants...I'll always
listen.  Most of the time, it's just not as simple as "Hey, sorry...I'll try
not to be late for class again"...this is more true in high school than
anything else.  Yes, I have also had students take advantage of this situation
but I'm always the first to get the student to UNDERSTAND that he/she is in
fact taking advantage of the freedom he/she is getting...it doesn't mean that
I come right out and say that to the student...I'll work it so that the
student comes to understand that.

Hmm...I'm a bit long-winded, but I think I'm slowly getting my point across, 
and hopefully, we'll be able to open up a line of communication where I can
elaborate on much of what I'm presenting....

>As regards tardy students: I keep the book in my podium, and when a
>student comes to class late without a valid reason, they immediately
>come to the front of the class and sign the book. If it's the first
>offense for the year, I tell them "that was your free-bee for the year".
>Otherwise, they get one of the school's detention slips which requires
>that they attend a school detention.

What exactly is a valid reason?  What do you think the student learns when
he/she is sitting in detention?  Are you there with the student when he/she
serves the detention?  How do you know the student has understood the cause
of the detention?  I certainly hope you don't assume that the student is
just going to realize that he/she has too many "checks" in your book and
that's why he/she is in detention...Hmm...the thing is that the student is'nt
really going to get anything out of detention.  I have found that the student
will be late to class because he/she found the class boring, or that the
student had things that "were more important" do to...in trying to find out
what exactly those things are, I've come to many different stories, and since
have come to conclude that maybe a change in the way the material is presented
and the way a student can opt to take that material and lecture makes the
difference in getting a student excitied about school.  Exactly how long after
class starts is a student considered tardy by your hand?

>I try to have my students already working on something at the beginning
>of the class period, so that if tardy students enter and I have to get
>them to sign the book, it won't take away instructional time, however,
>even if it does take away a minute or two at the beginning I think it's
>important that the students know that they can't be late to class. You
>should know that I have given less than 5 detentions so far this year
>for tardiness. The kids know I mean it.

That's really great!  You have scared the living daylights out of your students
and you know...they're coming to your class on time not because they like your 
class, or because they are actually interested in learning, but because they
don't want to have to spend any more time than they have to at school and in
the track of learning.  I think you've done a great thing for America's kids..
Sorry, but I certainly couldn't resist the chance of my slight sarcasm.  My
philosophy as far as keeping students "in line" stems from getting them to
want to learn, not getting them to hate coming to class for fear that they 
aren't going to do "the right thing" to please the teacher...the whole idea for
me is to get the kids to please themselves...not me.  They're not bowls...like
I said before.

>As regards student disruptions:

>If a student is being a little talkative, or passing things, or whatever
>it is that I don't approve of, I try to communicate by my body language
>or a glance that they should stop. I do give verbal or body language
>warnings before they get to the point where I think it has to go on
>record. If a kid still doesn't settle down, then I say something like
>"Stop doing x and I will see you after class" and then I go on with
>class. Usually the student corrects his behavior right away and after
>class I talk to him about it and have him sign the book. I may determine
>that there needs to be a penalty, but more often than not, if it's the
>first time the student signs, I say it's a warning, but now I have a
>record and next time it will require a punishment.

No it should never REQUIRE a punishment.  These are kids and they should be
allowed to BE kids.  If you can get them to learn within their capacity to be
kids, then you are doing the right thing...but if you bring them into the 
world where the rules of others govern over them then you're failing to get
them to see what the real task is...to LEARN.

>There was a case recently, while I had students putting problems on the
>board, where I just couldn't stand the way a certain kid was behaving.
>It _couldn't_ wait until after class. I had to talk to him NOW! So I
>took him out in the hall with me, while the students continued to
>correct homework without me, and we talked for about 1 min., put his
>name in the book. It took a moment of time (but not really, because the
>kids still went on without me), but it is important sometimes to do
>this.

What was he doing?  I would like to see if I might be able to offer an
alternative to this whole book system you use...

>A couple of things require (in my class) immediate consequences, without
>signing the book or warnings. When I see a student with something else
>out (another class's work) I take the offending material and tell them
>they can have it the next class period.

This is the MAJOR problem with today's education...a kid is stopped from
learning for another class when he's in YOUR class.  Sure, the kid may not
be doing any real learning because more than likely, he/she is going to be
doing the work just to get it done not because it means anything to that 
person.  But, in any case, you are causing a huge student to begin seeing
that maybe the different classes aren't linked in any fundamental way.  All
subjects are interdiciplinary and we don't start teaching this to kids, EVER.
When they get to college, they start to see it...but by then, all the kids
that ever had a chance to get to college have given up.  I can list hundreds
of examples where english and MATH come together...just ask...

> When I return it to them, I tell
>them that the next time they will lose it for a week (I have never taken
>anything from the same student for a second time.)

Again...you're scaring the student into doing the right thing...frankly, I
always thought math was much more fun than english...so I'd always get 
caught doing math homework in my english classes and sometimes, I was even
stopped from doing math when I was just trying to understand it and I felt
that it couldn't wait.  I wanted to actually learn math...I didn't just want
to get the homework done...I WANTED to do it...and then I was stopped...it
hurt me later and until I got to attend an experimental high school, my 
attitude towards school didn't change.

> If a student it
>writing on the desks, he will come in at lunch or after school that day
>(or sometimes the following day) and clean all the desks in the room.

If a student writes on a desk, I sometimes get the student to transfer it to
paper, if it's art, and then I'll wipe the desk off while he/she sits there...
I'd also strike up a conversation with the kid, and not really make him feel
as though I'm trying to punish him.  It works...I'll talk to him about the
whole writing on the desk thing, but it generally gets to be a conversation
that doesn't revolve around the "offense" and more than likely, the student
won't do it again, won't have to say after class against his will, and I'll
get the desk clean.  Once, while I was teaching, a student was writing on a
desk, and I made a paper airplane while teaching.  I threw the plane to the
kid and told him to use that instead...the next day, he noticed that his desk
was clean, and that I had put his "doodle" up on the wall...it was pretty cool
for him...and for me too.  I knew that he had learned something, because he
always doodled in pencil after that :)

> If
>I tell the kids to get started working on homework or another type of
>problem, and a student wastes time (purposefully--hoping to avoid doing
>anything) the student gets 10 min. after school with me doing that same
>type of work. Failure to get started after a warning increases length of
>time after school.

Have you ever bothered to ask what the student would LIKE to do instead?  I've
taken a class out to the yard because someone wanted to play basketball...there
I taught them simple mathematics that most seniors in high school don't even
get a grasp on!  These were 7th graders.  No, I didn't get them to do their
lesson THAT day, and by the end of the year, I didn't finish EVERYTHING I
was supposed to do, but those kids enjoyed learning, and saw the opportunity
to learn much more often.

>Boy, it sure sounds like I spend all my time in class disciplining my
>class, but actually the opposite is true. I rarely have discipline
>problems. Part of it is because I try to keep the class moving and
>always having something to do. Part of it is because the students know
>from their experience with me that I mean what I say, and I mean
>business. And part of it is (I think) because of my reputation as a
>tough strict teacher (having taught at the same school for 10 years can
>be an advantage).

Sheila, please don't take offense to what I'm saying.  I'm trying to get some
of my points across, and I'm not sure I'm doing it quite right.  On the net,
it's not easy to really say what you want perfectly, and even in person it's
hard.  I'm interested to see what you have to say, along with others.  I spent
a great deal of time with this topic, and my kids mean a lot to me.  I'm not
known as a strict teacher...I'm known as a kid.

>--  
>uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!103!315!Sheila.King
>Internet: Sheila.King@f315.n103.z1.fidonet.org


Amrit