From: fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter)
Subject: Re: Peeking through the curtain
Organization: Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 02:03:55 GMT

I'm beginning to think I'm talking about one thing and others (like Kenn)
are talking about something else.

I'm saying that you shouldn't screw around with married people, especially
if they have kids. I'm saying that if you do, you bear some responsibility
for the pain and emotional scars that the spouse and the kids get as a result.
I'm saying that the partner that did the cheating bears a greater share of
the blame, but you, the other (woman/man) are *not* blameless. And you,
the other (woman/man), if you know the marriage is supposed to be monogamous,
and you know about the kids, are fucking assholes to be screwing around
with the cheating partner.

I've seen both sides of this type of situation. I once lived (platonic
room-mates) with a woman who seemed to only date married men. She never
knew they were married when she first met them, but she eventually figured
it out. And she usually got back at the men by trying to give the wives
involved a nervous breakdown. It was all a game to her. She had a blast.
I remember one phone call she made. She called up the guys home, and asked
for him. She knew he had moved out on the wife, so she knew he wouldn't be
there. So, the wife goes "He's not here right now, who's this ?" and Judy
goes "I'm his girlfriend, who're you ?". And the wife proceeds to have a
nervous breakdown. Right after this call, she called up a girlfriend of hers
and repeated both sides of the conversation. Just part of the game to her.
Kenn and some of the others here sound a lot like her to me.

And on the other side of this type of situation - right now, a close friend
is a bind - her husband just left her and her three kids for another woman.
I could tell you what she's going through, and how that's affected her.
I could tell you what her kids are going through, and how that's affected them.
But some of you, the fucking assholes who believe that the other (woman/man)
bears no moral responsibility towards the spouse and kids of the cheating
partner, would say tough, all's fair in love and war.

barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>[3rd-party moral responsibility in infidelity]
>
>fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter) writes:
>>barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>>>fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter) writes:
>>>>And when it's being done just for the sake of gratuitous sex...
>>>	You didn't say anything about motives. Suppose it's done for love?
>>
>>I say bullshit. What's love ? Doesn't love involve trust ? How can one
>>trust anyone who's being unfaithful to their spouse ?
>
>	answer the question. I'll start things

I answered the question. I don't know what love is, so when I hear 'love'
I substitute words that describe the observed behaviour.

>I prefer open relationships, and you _can't_ cheat in an open relationship.

I wasn't talking about open relationships. I have friends with open
relationships. I have no problem with open relationships.

>>I'd say 'lust' is better word for what most people call 'love'. Or
>>maybe infatuation.
>
>	You may be right. But you say it as if right-thinking people
>like you always know the difference, and honor it. I wonder.

If calling them like I see them is 'right-thinking', then I am
'right-thinking'. I don't understand the meaning of 'honor it' w.r.t.
the difference between love and lust.

>>>A secret affair might save a marriage instead of destroying it;
>>
>>Sounds like rationalization to me. "Gee, this marriage is boring;
>>instead of getting a divorce, I'll spice it up by having an affair !".
>
>	I wish you wouldn't do that. We are talking specifically about
>the third party, not the unfaithful spouse. My whole point is that
>their moral obligations are different.

I say that the third party does have a moral obligation. You seem to be
saying that the third party does *not*. I say you're an asshole if you
act as a third party (on the asumption that you do *not* have a moral
obligation). You say (or will say :-) that I'm an asshole for calling you
an asshole for behaving in this manner.  I think this conversation is
becoming circular.

>	The real point is that no third party can "spoil" a
>relationship. Affairs are one of the common symptoms of a marriage on
>the rocks, but they are a symptom, not a cause.

Yes, affairs are a symptom. But throwing in a third party makes the situation
so much worse and painful.

>	I guess you're a moralist; your privelege, but many people don't

I don't have many morals, but the ones I do have I feel strongly about.

>	I ask again, what are the responsibilities of the third party in
>this case; and if they are different than if the couple were married,
>why?

If the couple isn't common law married, then I haven't fleshed out how I feel
about the situation. But anytime a messy, hurtful, painful breakup will
ensure (lawyers required) then you shouldn't go near the situation.

>>This is incredibly naive of you. In an honest society, yes, you could
>>assume that the person is truthful. But people lie all the time, especially
>>about things that are important to them. Like sex.
>
>	This is quite unlikely.

This is my experience. And the experience of others that I've talked with
about sex and relationships.

>Think about it, Fred. If you were having an affair and wanted to keep it
>secret, wouldn't it be kind of important that your lover _know_ it's
>supposed to be a secret?

All the affairs I know about started out with the third person not knowing
that the cheating partner was married. They'd be given phone numbers that
were slightly wrong (so if they found out the right one it would look
like a mistake). They'd be told to only call at work because they're
never home. (Oh, what else was Judy told by her guys ? I can't think
of anything else right now.)

>Otherwise, your secret's gonna come to light, by accident.

Geez, you *can* reason these things out if you try.

	fred
-- 
Disclaimer: everything I post is my *personal* opinion and does not represent
or reflect the opinion of the company which employs me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
G. R. (Fred) Walter, Mortice Kern Systems Inc.,	Internet: fredw@mks.com