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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:13:00 MST
From:         Clarke Whitehead <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

From Ahmed: [stuff deleted]

>....if they think they are been victimized then they should
>never do this ....

Try putting yourself in the shoes of a young girl running away from an
abusive environment.  She's too young to get a legitimate job, and too
scared to go back home or to contact government agencies.  She does in
fact become a victim to the pimps who are on the prowl for such lonely
and helpless girls.

>Because they are many other descent jobs they can do...

Not for a runaway 13 year old.

>probably only those people come in prostitution those who are obsses by dirty
>mind and maybe Satan....

Or maybe it's just hunger and needing a place to stay.

>because everyone knows its a bad job..and sin doing
>prostitution.....

Excuse me Ahmed, but EVERYONE does NOT know it is sin!  That is your
opinion.  Personally I don't like using the word "sin" because it
typically is just a tool for people to try and push their wishes on
others.  Prostitution might be a social problem, but I don't consider
it sin.  You have a right to your own beliefs, but please don't try to
speak for me!  Wars are created because of groups that believe they have
the right to dictate what others may believe and practice.

Clarke
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:46:37 EST
From:         Argyria Kehagias <AKEHAGIA@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect
              16 Nov 1992 10:28:00 MST from <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>

   I am not sure who said this, but I think part of the message was
>when a therapist sits and hour, charges $100 to relieve someones tension
>he/she is respected, when someone is paid to massage the neck muscles
>and give a massage to reduce tentsion tis ok but when a person achieves the
same result with sex she is vullified

    What this person failed to realize in my personal opinion is that these
things, such a thearopy, massaging and other things services of this type
are proffesional services.  THese people that give these services
go to school, aquire knowledge, and are taught properly how to deal with
people and thier problems.
    They do not insurt things in you, or give you things that maybe unclean
or in the future hurt you. Their are laws and requirments that must be
full filled in order for the corperation or the practice to keep running.
   I feel the person that made this anology failed to see these things.
And I just wanted to point them out. All the services that you compared
prostitution with have guide lines and those people must be educated in
a certain aspect of the human being and have a degree saying that they
at least aquired the minimum amount of knowledge to practice thier
proffesion.
                               Argyria Kehagias
                                 (akehagia@sbccvm)
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:12:09 EST
From:         MAIL <U330002@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect
              20 Nov 1992 10:38:59 -0500 from <x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU>

Ahmed,

Many of those women whom you call obsessed with dirty minds truly cannot
get "decent" jobs and survive. How many people are going to hire a teen-
ager for a job that pays even halfway decently? These girls are out on
the street, many with no place to go and with few if any belongings.
They feel that they can't go home, for whatever reason that may be, soup
kitchens can only feed so many, and they need money. To get it, they do
one of the few things they can. They become prostitutes.

                                              Peggy
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:37:46 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

hello Clarke...
i belive the 13 year old girl should have approached some religious or
welfare oganization...any this doesnot justify of her being a prostitute..

Ahmed
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:46:16 -0500
From:         Joyce Neu <ccjn@EMORYU1.CC.EMORY.EDU>
Subject:      Role of the United Nations

This is a bit late; not too late, I hope. And another change in topic.

On Thu, 12 Nov 1992, Kerry Reese wrote:

> international law class that advocates the elimination of militaries in
> favor of a world police or world government.  (Our professor wants us to

Costa Rica is an example of a country without a military. Oscar Arias
(former President, now President of the Arias Foundation for Peace, also
Nobel Peace Prize winner) set a wonderful precedent in eliminating the
military.  Too bad few countries in the region or elsewhere paid attention.

> the United Nations and a future world government?  Do you think that a
> world government should be created someday?  What kind of government

There exists now the International Court of Jurists, with which you are
probably familiar.  I am a strong advocate of the UN and only wish that
they took themselves more seriously and got some business done. One piece of
business that they are late in dealing with is the issue of national
sovereignty.  Because of what they term "National sovereignty," they will
not (cannot, by their Charter) become involved in intra-national
conflicts. Problem is, there are now 35 of these intra-national conflicts
(aka civil wars) that have killed over 1000 people each (Mozambique =
600,000; Liberia = 60,000 and millions of refugees around the world).  Until
the UN revisits "national sovereignty" in terms of human rights violations
that cry out for intervention, we're not going to see a world govt. that
any of us particularly wants.

If this is a topic of interest to you, call the UN's public information
office; I'm sure that they have publications on the issue of national
sovereignty and humane intervention (the rules of which need to be
determined--when to intervene so that a country cannot claim superpower
clout caused it to be "invaded;"  rules that will allow the UN to enter
the U.S. as well as any other country where human rights are severely
violated).  I am not optimistic about devising such rules: last week at a
conference, the ASEAN nations (Assoc. of Southeast Asian Nations) stated
that what the west thinks is a human rights violation may be necessary in
countries that are trying to develop--so that they should not have to
abide by human rights codes set out by Amnesty International, Asia Watch,
or other human rights organization.

A question for the list:  are there universals in human rights?  If so,
what are they?

Hope this is of some help, Kerry.  Good luck with your paper!

Joyce
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:16:56 EST
From:         Argyria Kehagias <AKEHAGIA@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

   PHill,
        no I am not suggesting that if prostitutes were educated on how
to be prostitutes then it would be okay. I Am not saying that at all,
even though I know it sounds like it. I had a feeling someone would
point this out or make a comment in such a manner as this.

      Most cultures I believe have something against prostitution. We all
must know something. Just like when you go to a forgein place and ask them
where something is, they take up their hand and point to where you asked them
the something is.
                         ARgyria KEhagias
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:06:04 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

What's all this about Evil....regarding prostitutes and the men who
frequent them....

Neither are Evil.....  some people go pay a professional coach to
learn tennis others pay a professional prostitue to learn the
techniques of sex....

Why is it that people would prefer men or women masturbate.... if one
can afford it and one can earn from it, why not pay or get paid for
sex?....  When you hear of someone dying from drunk driving, one does
not blame ALL those who drink, if someone catches AIDS or VD, why blame
all those who do it safely....

z
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:09:46 GMT
From:         Peter Mandal <eeipml@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

>Zahir,

>[stuff deleted]
>>When a therapist sits an hour, charges $100 to relieve someones tension
>>he/she is respected, when someone is paid to massage the neck muscles
>>and give a massage to reduce tension its o.k. but when a person achieves
>>the same result with sex, she is villified....
>>
>>Is there some chauvinism involved?

>I think you're right, there is some chauvinism involved.  It's interesting
>to hear those who accuse and condemn women that work in the "sex industry",
>when often they are the very ones supporting the industry.  If there weren't
>a demand for such services, there would be no sex vendors.

[Stuff deleted]

>Another point I'd like some comment on ...
>What is the difference between a prostitute and a gold digger (someone who
>dates, has sex with, or marries someone for their financial status).  It
>is accepted (at least in the american culture) to pursue someone because
>of their money.  In many ways, prostitution is a much more honest and
>straight forward approach.  I would much rather have a prostitute offer
>services in exchange for a fixed fee (although I've never used such services)
>then to have someone deceive me by showing an interest in me only because
>of my money (if I had some :-)  ).

I'd like to agree with both Clarke and Zahir on this one!

I think someone else made some comments about legalising prostitution.
Maybe someone in Australia could confirm or deny that prostitution is
already legalised in certain parts of Australia. If it is already legal, could
one of our Australian friends describe the conditions , restraints and
perceptions of society there with regard to the 'oldest profession'.

Interculturally,
                          Peter
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:39:00 MST
From:         Clarke Whitehead <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

>hello Clarke...
>i belive the 13 year old girl should have approached some religious or
>welfare oganization...any this doesnot justify of her being a prostitute..
>
>Ahmed

Ahmed,
I'm not saying that it does justify being a prostitute.  I doubt however,
that many scared and lonely 13 year olds are going to know about such agencies,
and most likely they will be afraid that the organization will just
return them to the abusive environment.

My main point, however, was that I don't believe that such a person who uses
such a profession to make a better life for themselves can be blamed.  The
blame (if any) should fall on those who create the market by offering money
for such services.

Clarke
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 11:09:17 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Peggy,

To some of us who come from cultures and societies where there are no
such escapes from our parents, and I am sure Ahmed from Pakistan is
one, prostitution as a preferable choice to living at home is bizarre
no matter what....

In some of the "shame" cultures, an entire extended family can be disgraced
if one of them becomes homeless or out on the street...so to avoid this
"shame", someone else takes in someone....be it a teen age girl being
abused at home or someone who is divorced (there are few if any single
parent HOMES either)...

It is something I have talked to with parents (from moslem) countries
who are raising rebellius children in the U.S.....  the same system of
punishments does not work.... In some countries, one does not need to
"communicate" with their children and if they disobey rules they can be
severely punished... the options are not there.. one cannot runaway and
support yourself...jobs are not easily available, the police will drag
you back home or put you in jail...your friends live with their
parents so one canot go and live with a friend and share an apartment..
Children, particularly women stay with their parents till they are
married....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 11:23:30 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Ahmed,

I don't know why it is so difficult for you to accept that people have
a right to live the way they please.....Obviously, as a devout muslim
who wishes to go to "Jannath", you wish to live your life differently...

But there are others who would like to dress differently and those
who choose a different profession (prostitutes or topless dancers)....
The prostitutes and others are not condemming the way you dress or
what you do and I am not sure you should condemn them either...

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:49:12 MEZ
From:         Heinrich Heine <HRZ150@VM.HRZ.UNI-ESSEN.DE>
Subject:      prostitutes and moral

A month ago I saw on TV a report about sex services for handicaped
people in the Netherlands, payed by states wellfare and very important
for the mental health of the handicaped.
In Germany prostitutes are on the way to built trade unions.
  Heinrich
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 10:28:00 MST
From:         Clarke Whitehead <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Zahir,

[stuff deleted]
>When a therapist sits an hour, charges $100 to relieve someones tension
>he/she is respected, when someone is paid to massage the neck muscles
>and give a massage to reduce tension its o.k. but when a person achieves
>the same result with sex, she is villified....
>
>Is there some chauvinism involved?

I think you're right, there is some chauvinism involved.  It's interesting
to hear those who accuse and condemn women that work in the "sex industry",
when often they are the very ones supporting the industry.  If there weren't
a demand for such services, there would be no sex vendors.

I knew a woman who ran away from home at the age of 13 because of an abusive
father.  She became a prostitute, because it was the only way for a young
girl like that to provide for herself.  Now that she is older, she has given
up prostitution (even though she could still make a lot of money at it) and
is married with two children.  I would not recommend prostitution to anyone,
but I can not condemn someone who falls into that line of work in order to
survive.  If anyone is to blame for prostitution, it is the men (or women)
who pay for such services.  As long as there is a market, there will be
suppliers.

Another point I'd like some comment on ...
What is the difference between a prostitute and a gold digger (someone who
dates, has sex with, or marries someone for their financial status).  It
is accepted (at least in the american culture) to pursue someone because
of their money.  In many ways, prostitution is a much more honest and
straight forward approach.  I would much rather have a prostitute offer
services in exchange for a fixed fee (although I've never used such services)
then to have someone deceive me by showing an interest in me only because
of my money (if I had some :-)  ).

        Clarke Whitehead -  TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:11:54 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Brenda Vermilyea suggests that "in most instances" prostitutes are victims, an
assertion which needs to be clarified. IN many instances prostitutes
are in total control of their life and work and pursue prostitution
as a legitimate service job, acknowleding that it is on the fringe and
that it puts them at risk from pimps and police [ consider this - the
state derives substantial income from the harassment of street prostitutes,
a cost which many prostitutes consider a business expense. Does this
not make the state a surrogate pimp.]

Lest we misunderstand, it is unrealistic to speak of "prostitutes" as a unitary
group all with the same problems and experiences. IN many urban areas,
street prostitutes are controlled and abused by managers [ eg: pimps] but
with more and more prostitutes banding together into self help protective
associations, this situation is slowly changing.

If the state got out of the prostitution business - by licensing
prostitutes  as they do in Holland, for example - we would take a long stride
toward ending the victimiization of prostitutes by pimps, the police and
by their customers [ in most large urban areas a prostitute stand a greater
risk of being injured or killed by a customer than she does of being hurt
by a pimp.]

Douglass...
From: RJCHIN@SUVM.BITNET (Renee Chin and Chester Mark)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Alaska Culture
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:52:05 GMT
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              18 Nov 1992 14:00:01 PST from <larry@CLUBMEZZ.BERKELEY.EDU>

Larry:  What an interesting request!  Chester and I just arrived in Syracuse Ne
w York so that I could go to be a PhD Candidate. But, we lived in Bethel Alaska
working with Yup'ik people.  Chester was a health aide trainer and I was in adm
inistration at the Yukon Kuskokwim Health Corporation (YKHC).  For starters wri
te to The Moravian Bookstore in Bethel, AK  99559.  The town is small so you wo
n't have to worry too much about the P.O. Box.
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:32:00 CST
From:         Daniel Henry <DHENRY@NNOMED.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Role of the United Nations/World Govt.

I think that the scenario of a "one world govt." is being played out
on a small scale already by the Europeans...

...they are beating out agreements on subsidies, health standards, etc.
and (hopefully) are getting used to the idea of working out these
kinds of problems in a multi-cultural, multi-national context, but
with unity, not adversarialism as the mode of operation...

...maybe this activity will rub off on us (the U.S.), or the up-coming
generation...  so then it won't be such a strange prospect (as unlikely
as it may seem to us - our generation) to think of many nations coming
together with common interests and achieving concensus...

alot depends on how that up-coming generation sees the world (I guess
the mess we're in now is an example of what generational paranoia will
do)... if our generation gets the ball rolling in the direction of
cooperation and seeking common interests, that's a big step in the
direction of creating the atmosphere for greater and real cooperation in
the future

... whew! were'd *that* come from ??
Dan Henry               __o
DHENRY@NNOMED         _ \<,_
LSU Medical Center   (_)/ (_)
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:53:18 CST
Comments:     Resent-From: FIMUST@LSUVM
Comments:     Originally-From: x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
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From:         FIMUST@LSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Everything

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>hello Brian....
>  regarding the the verse in Quran of woman covering themselves...there is a
>clear verse directly emphasising.....and also there are sying of the prophet.
>egarding this matter....and I believ there are at two places clearly mentioned
>regarding woman covering themselves....
>
>Ahmed....

Ahmed
  How about giving us the exact citation (including the name of the Sura,
the Hadith, page number, etc.) ?
    Mustafa
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:08:16 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE: A response from two Moslem women.

Oliver....
    what I am inferring is that those woman don't like wearing the veil...
O.k fine that is there personal opinion...but you can say the same
thing about all muslims.....I don't see them as good muslim because this
thing about woman covering came in our HOLY BOOK as an order to all muslim
woman and there are sayings regarding woman covering themelves by our Prophet..
I belive also in christianity veil is there thats why Nuns wear them....
So the opinion of those woman cannot be taken in account that all muslim
woman believe this.....

Ahmed
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:09:15 EST
From:         Kerry <U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Role of the United Nations
              16 Nov 1992 20:46:16 -0500 from <ccjn@EMORYU1.CC.EMORY.EDU>

   Joyce:
         Thanks for the information! It will help me greatly. The topic
is interesting, I think, but complicated.

          One answer to the human rights question asked of the group:

  I think that the West places more of an importance on civil and
political rights and perhaps other cultures place more importance on
social and economic rights.
  Developing countries have pressures to quickly industrialize and to
become equal with the already developed world. I think it is difficult
for them to achieve stability , so they suppress people who seem to
threaten their policies.
   At least torture should be universally condemned...


                      Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:55:00 MST
From:         Clarke Whitehead <TSCWHITEHEAD@CC.WEBER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prostitutes and Self Respect

Zahir,

The 40% in the Ann Landers survey seems high, but then, a survey of
Ann Landers readers really can't be considered a random sampling :-)

>... we object to being
>paid for sex or sensual dancing but adore the same sexuality or sensuality
>when singers sing about sex and sensuality .....

I agree, it seems like a double standard.  There are many complex social
implications, but I have wondered if it wouldn't be safer to have legal,
yet regulated (for health reasons) prostitution.  Sexual infidelity is
going to happen.  It seems like it would be safer to find sexual release
with a prostitute that is emotionaly uninvolved than to risk breaking up
a relationship/family because of a love affair.

Clarke
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