HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:57:48 -0800
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         pcgandara@UCDAVIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

Re: Steve Soiffer's comments on public vs private schools and the
possibility of offering vouchers that were inversely proportional to
family income.  I agree that that STILL wouldn't solve the problem.  But
my concerns are less about the "quality" of the institutions accepting the
vouchers than about the continued "need" for well-established schools of
good reputation to discriminate against students who do not reflect those
schools' current populations.  The schools that are the most prized for
their assumed ability to educate students well enough to make them
competitive for the next level of education (i.e., college or university)
have students populations that come to them with high academic achievment
for the most part, and come from homes with resources.  They are able to
"sell" their school to the families of potential students because their
test scores are high, they send a high proportion of their students on
to excellent postsecondary institutions, and families can be assured that
their children will be studying in the company of a selective peer group,
one that looks like their own children.  There is always the question of
whether these schools do such a good job of educating these students or if
they just do a good job of selecting the kinds of students who are going to
make them look good.  Even for the best of schools (i.e., the ones that
REALLY are offerring a superb eduation), the latter is always a factor.
        In any case, if you were the head administrator of such a school,
how many students with low test scores,  with apparently inadequate
educational preparation (and possibly even motivational or "minor" behavioral
problems) would you be willing to admit?  How many could you afford to
admit before your average test scores, that you display to all
potential clients, began to drop?  Would ANY price be high enough to risk
your reputation for high scores, the "right" peer group, and high
college-going rates?  I suspect that there is no voucher amount high enough
to entice the most selective schools to accept low income and
underprepared students in anything like the numbers that would be needed
to make a difference.  And, the fact that many students were on the market
with their vouchers would probably just intensify the hierarchical ranking
of all schools.  I suspect we would end up with the same pecking order we
have now, but we would just be paying the private sector to create and
maintain it.

Patricia Gandara
UCDavis
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 10:32:00 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         SSOIFFER@CLARKU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: David and Goliath

Robert Stout brings up a fascinating point about the proposed
breakup of the L.A. School District - It is happening within a
context we could almost think of as the "Balkanization" of the
L.A. basin. I find it fascinating, as a former Los Angelino myself,
that the initiative for such changes come from the Roberti/Waxman/
Berman old-liberal-turned-neoconservative machine. Probably has
significance for educational planning and development at every
level in the LA area, and probably also for the realignment under
way in California electoral politics.

Aside from all the racist/ethnocentric threads, I wonder if this
proposal is in some ways a reflection of the pressures on education
caused by Prop 13, i.e. when long term under-funding threatens even
life-support systems, the tendency is to try to lock in control of
the very limited funds that can be counted upon?

Steve Soiffer
Clark University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:05:00 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "John O. Wong" <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Clintons, choice, public & private lives

 Bill McInerney,

> When my wife and I got ready
>to buy a house in this area, we bought in West Lafayette, which has an
>excellent school system catering primarily to "faculty brats."  We could
>have bought in areas which would have put our children in a more inner-city
>situation, or in a rural situation.  Am I less an advocate of good public
>schools for all children?

Of course not, Bill, in your choice to do so.  You did exactly the right thing.
The part which makes a difference in my mind, is how you relate this choice to
your relatives, friends, and colleagues.  Here are some possibilities:

- "I built in W. Lafayette because they have the best school here."

- "I really wanted to locate in the school district where I teach.
   However, this excellent opportunity in W. Lafayette came out, and we
   could not afford to pass it up."

- "I made the decision to relocate in W. Lafayette as a parent.
   In my capacity as a teacher in an inner city school and a staunch supporter
   of inner city public schools, I shall do my best to fight white flight,
   including "hostage taking" policies if necessary."

- "I have mixed feelings about moving to W. Lafayette.  However, it was my
   child's choice.  Here is $10,000 donation to the Coalition for Better
   Downtown Schools."

Which route did you take??

                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 12:04:39 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         peter lau <72460.3000@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      David and Goliath

In reply to Mark Fetler's post concerning the possibility of breaking up the
L.A.U.S.D., not the least in this murky forumla is the political ambition of
one David Roberti.  The so-called "70 million short fall that the district
cannot account for" looks suspiciously like a drum up charge to further
support Roberti's own quest to break up the district.  To what political
ends? one can only guess.  He will certainly score points with the mostly
White, much wealthier San Fernando Valley voters who are now part of the
L.A. district.  These voters have consistently showed distain with the
mostly Black and Hispanic City of L.A. part of the district.  Do large
districts indeed have proportionally more problems than smaller districts?
I am not sure if anyone has really looked into the problem of the size of a
district and governance.  Seems like a good doctoral thesis to me.

peter lau
UC Riverside
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:19:59 -0800
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was sunolen@STEIN.U.WASHINGTON.EDU
From:         Susan Nolen <sunolen@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Great Books

Re: Bill's comment below, I have used it in many edpsych classes over the
last 8 years.  Never fails to inspire thoughtful discussion and
introspection, esp. among practicing teachers.  It was updated in 82: the
book now has the original text interspersed with Holt's reflections on his
earlier thinking given the intervening experience.  I don't much hold with
the Great Books idea in general, but I hate to miss the chance to plug a
good 'un.  SN


______________________________________________________________________________

Susan B. Nolen                      322 Miller Hall DQ-12
                                    University of Washington
sunolen@u.washington.edu            Seattle, WA   98195

On Fri, 8 Jan 1993, Bill McInerney wrote:

> I remember being very impressed as a young teacher with John Holt's
> How Children Fail.  I haven't read it in a while, but I'll bet it
> holds up pretty well.
>
>
>   Bill McInerney                  o o O O O O O O O
>                                  o    _______
>   BMCINERN@PURCCVM               Y__'_|_|_|_| --++++++--
>   BMCINERN@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU      |__|_|  P  | | PURDUE |
>   (317) 494-7299                {|____|_____|:|________|
>   (317) 496-1228 FAX             /OO-----OO     OO   OO
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:38:41 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

John's analogy to the conflict between celibacy and sexual activity seems to
be not quite the right analogy.  One is forced, by the nature of what celibacy
is, to make a choice for oneo r the other.  But that seems not to be the case
in terms of public policy: one can quite easily be sincerely interested in
pursuing a policy of greater public and social support for our schools while
at the same time judging that, at this moment, I can, and therefore I should,
provide a better educational environment for my child than the society is now
willing to provide for all children.  At the same time, I can recognize that
the easier it becomes for middle class parents to withdraw from the system,
the less likely it is ever to provide decent education for all.  And, note,
even when it does provide decent education for all, and safe education for all,
wise and prudent paretns who can do so may still choose Sidwell over the
public system.

But I'd like to put a different spin on this as a policy question.  I am old
enough to remember when many people involved in Catholic schools opposed taking
Federal dollars on the grounds that to have the Federal government pay the
musician allowed the Federal governemnt to ask for specific tunes.  Assume
that vouchers were allowed to be used at private schools.  At what point would
the flow of public dollars into private schools result in a public demand for
control of those schools?  When would this policy mean that the "private"
schools entered the "public" domain?

Last Sunday's NYTimes had an interesting column by Albert Shanker on the
Clintons' choice.


****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:04:01 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         U56E3@WVNVM.BITNET
Subject:      Clintons, choice, public & private lives

Robert Bellah and colleagues (Habits of the Heart--add it to your list, Bob!)
discuss the almost irreconcilable disjunction of private and public lives.
Whatever we think of Bill and Hillary's (and Chelsea's decision, for that
matter), those of us who "support" public education are disturbed not so much
by the choice, but by how close to home--how familiar in our own lives--this
disjunction is.  Perhaps we are shocked that even the President cannot escape.
John Wong illuminates the problem well.  Jane Lindle points out quite cor-
rectly, moreover, that we all have choices:  and really, America is a land of
choices.  A colleague from Mainland China finds selecting a jar of mustard
at the supermarket very difficult.  But when it comes to cars, housing, and
schooling, it's not choice so much as what another colleague calls "fiscal
free will."  Not many of us can cut the mustard of fiscal free will.

CRAIG HOWLEY, ERIC/CRESS, P.O. BOX 1348, CHARLESTON, WV  25325
1-800/624-9120
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:36:07 -0600
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         harden daniel <zzhrdn@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Great Books

I would suggest that we not limit ourselves to our own little chunk of
time when we look for Great Books dealing with education.  The following
I would nominate:

Richard Weaver -- Ideas Have consequences

J. Barzun -- Teacher in America

Albert J. Nock -- Education in America

Henry Adams -- The Education of henry Adams.


G.D. Harden
Department of Education
Washburn University
Topeka, Kansas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:54:00 MST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Gene Glass <ATGVG@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Job Opening

From:         Victoria Giordano <vicki@POLARIS.NOVA.EDU>
Subject:      Position Available


"Assistant/Associate/Full Professor of Educational Research.  Experience
teaching full complement of research courses including multivariate methods,
research design and advanced statistical methods in education; competence in
either SPSS or SAS.  Demonstrated ability to work on and chair doctoral
committees; research interest in urban, multi-cultural and multi-ethnic
educational issues.  Search chairperson: Barry Greenberg.  Applications,
curriculum vitae, list of references should be sent by January 14, 1993 to
search chairperson, College of Education, Florida International University,
University Park Campus, DM 256 , Miami, Florida 33199."

-------**********======================================**********-------
GENE V GLASS                                    ATGVG at ASUACAD.BITNET
College of Education                            ATGVG at ASUACVAX.BITNET
Arizona State University       Internet Address:ATGVG@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Tempe, AZ 85287-2411
602-965-2692
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by yvax.byu.edu
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:52:51 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         willd@YVAX.BYU.EDU
Subject:      Educators as inquirers, action rsch

I sent out a query on Jan 4 for those interested in action research,
educators as inquirers, etc and received several responses sent directly to
me.  I will be messaging each of you but meanwhile I encourage all who are
interested in this topic to join a dialogue that is proceeding on it on
ERL-L.  It seems premature to start a list on this but the ERL-L
subscribers have encouraged us to join them there.
David D. Williams    Instructional Science Department
201-C MCKB    Brigham Young University    Provo, UT 84602
Voice:  801-378-2765      Fax: 801-378-4017
Internet: willd@yvax.byu.edu. Bitnet: willd@byuvax.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.6.1
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 10:45:45 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Peg Miller <miller@PCMAIL.SCHEV.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Mandated Assessment

State-mandated, campus-based assessment has been in place in Virginia for 6
years.  Campus acceptance of it ranges from quite good to poor.  Call me if
you'd like a discussion of strategies or names of people to call -- I'm at
(804) 225-2627.

Peg Miller
Miller@pcmail.schev.edu
(804) 225-2627
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by yvax.byu.edu
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 10:14:53 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         willd@YVAX.BYU.EDU
Subject:      EDUCATORS AS INQUIRERS

I am looking for a list or some other source of people talking about
educators as inquirers, teachers as researchers, action research, or the
equivalents of all these as applied to school , teachers, administrators,
and/or professors.  If you know of electronic sources along these lines,
please let me know at any of the addresses below.  I am reading John
Smyth's TEACHERS AS COLLABORATIVE LEARNERS and suspect there may be such
conversations going in Australia, Canada, and/or England but have found no
references to them.  If you are familiar with Goswami and Stillman's
RECLAIMING THE CLASSROOM, Fostnot's ENQUIRING TEACHERS, ENQUIRING LEARNERS,
Hitchcock and Hughes' RESEARCH AND THE TEACHER, Brause and Mayher's SEARCH
AND RESEARCH:WHAT THE INQUIRING TEACHER NEEDS TO KNOW, or Kincheloe's
TEACHERS AS RESEARCHERS: QUALITATIVE INQUIRY AS A PATH TO EMPOWERMENT,
these are the kinds of issues and sources I want to dialogue with.  Gene
Glass suggested starting a list of this sort if one didn't exist already.
Any suggestions or interest?
David D. Williams    Instructional Science Department
201-C MCKB    Brigham Young University    Provo, UT 84602
Voice:  801-378-2765      Fax: 801-378-4017
Internet: willd@yvax.byu.edu. Bitnet: willd@byuvax.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:11:55 MST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         bob stout <AORXS@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: David and Goliath
              31 Dec 1992 10:52:59 PDT from <MFETLER@CC1.CCCCO.EDU>

Re::  Breaking up L.A. is hard to do

This is not a new event in the history of L.A.  I think I
remember similar attempts as early as 1966.  Of course
desegregation, teacher contracts and the like got in the
way.  Subsequent, and varying forms of, restructuring (areas
and the like) were tried as well.  There is no reason to
believe that such efforts will get all that far now, except
as the ethnic communities decide to take control.

Robert T. Stout, Arizona State University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.6.1
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 10:53:22 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Peg Miller <miller@PCMAIL.SCHEV.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Mandated Assessment in Higher Ed

In Virginia, since 1986 every public college has been required to assess
student learning outcomes according to a set of guidelines developed by the
State Council of Higher Education, working with institutional
representatives.  Briefly, every institution must assess student outcomes in
the majors and in general education, survey alumni, track the success of
remediated students, and assess off-campus instruction (recently added).
Four-year institutions must also inform two-year ones of the success of
transfer students.  How each institution -- or even each program -- chooses
to do this is under the control of the faculty, as are the criteria and
standards by which student work is evaluated. Hence the programs (and
results) are non-comparable.

Every two years the Council receives full reports from institutions on what
and how they are assessing student learning, what they have learned from the
assessments about the strengths and weaknesses of their programs, and what
they have done about what they have learned.  Those reports are read by a
committee consisting of Council staff, out-of-state reviewers (Peter Ewell
has been one of them ever since the program began), and -- most recently
added -- officers of the Virginia Assessment Group (the organization of
assessment coordinators in the state).  Council staff writes a long letter to
each institution describing the review panel's comments on its report --
everything from the soundness of the assessment methods used to the extent to
which the results seem to be being used for curricular improvement, planning,
and resource allocation.  Summaries of the reports are published every two
years in the Virginia Plan.

I'll be happy to answer any questions this brief description raises.

Peg Miller
Miller@pcmail.schev.edu
(804) 225-2627
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:30:17 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         ADM_FDOHERTY@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Schools: public or private

John,

I think we agree about why the Clintons sent Chelsea to a private school.
I would do the same thing if I were them.  While I do not doubt Clinton's
desire to provide excellent education for all children, I would like to
see all children have the choice the Clintons have.  Having worked for
several years with inner city children, I think I understand the types of
problems these children face.  Given the major problems of the public
inner city schools, these children have no choice.  Why cant't we allow
all children choice?

Frank Doherty
James Madison University
Internet: ADM_FDOH@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v2
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:08:04 GMT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Kevin@LEMOORE.ATI.COM
Subject:      Drugs and the Student

I have a mentor teacher who is doing a project on helping teachers
deal with children who have been exposed to drugs eith prenatally
or as infants. She would like to collect as much data as she can (research
papers, etc.). If you have any ideas, know of any great sources, or
even know of teachers and progams who are successfully working in
this area, I'd love to hear about it. I'm sure she would be willing
to summarize some of what she discovers and puts togther on the net.

I'm also working on a practicum that deals with values (from the student,
teacher, and parent perspective as it relates to education). I plan
on developing several projects for students of various cultures to
participate in over the INTERNET. I'd also love to hear of any ideas
you might have on this topic.

Hope everyone is enjoying the new year!

*********************************************************
*  Kevin Kurtz                           *  Pam Kurtz               *
*  Lemoore Elementary School *  Pamela@lemoore.ati.com  *
*  Kevin@lemoore.ati.com     *                          *
*********************************************************
*                    Lemoore, California                *
*                      (209) 924 - 3470                 *
*                   Fax: (209) 924 - 5975               *
*********************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Organization: Marshall University
X-Envelope-to: EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: _IN%"EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:51:00 -0400
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Aimee Howley <ESS016@MARSHALL.MU.WVNET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: classic education books

I wonder if it might help to ask whether or not there are principles
of pedagogy (and also of thought) that enlighten practice.  In fact,
a more productive sense of teachers might include consideration of
the many experiences--"common sense," local knowledge, intellectual
influences--that inform practice.  Why should teaching practice be
constrained?

--Aimee Howley; Educational Administration; Marshall University;
Huntington, WV  25755   ESS016@Marshall.WVNET.EDU
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU