HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: C_PUFFER@unhh.unh.edu (Charles   Puffer)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Organization: University of New Hampshire
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:47:09 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12

In <eF8FqB2w164w@Control.Com> ics.vance@Control.Com writes:

> Several good gentles have posted suggestions concerning future
> incarnations for the Town Battle that was fought for the first time
> this year at Pennsic War.  I marshalled that battle and was standing 
> next to my partner when he was knocked cold by a stray glaive shot.
> We were both very close to the fighting since there was nowhere else
> to be.  Fortunately, he was was wearing a hard hat and was not 
> seriously injured.  My point is that any plans for future Town Battles
> must take in to consideration the necessary presence of marshals. 
> Complicated arrangements of the town's structures and narrow 
> passageways will only make the marshals' job infinitely more difficult.
> I would rather see some arrangement where the marshals can keep an eye
> on the fighting without risking injury as in the Bridge Battle. Any
> suggestions that address the safety of the marshals would be much
> appreciated.

	The first thing I would sugest is putting up poles to mark corners.
this would have two effects the first is that is reduces all question about
where the corner is, second the marshals will not have to stick there heads
and other lims into the fray jest to mark the corners.

	this could also mean cloth walls and tape over the doors to help 
define the edges of things.

	The town should be coppied from a real town somewhere. It should also be
big enufe so that it can't be bysected by one army or the other. if this is to
big to build then there should be a series of smaller battles using parts of 
each army in each this could be explain as a running battle through a group of
towns. the winners ot the previs battle would have to attack the inchrenched
lowsers in the next round.

	Jest some thoughts.

[_-_-_-_-_]            
 |       |______________     Charles Puffer
 |      /             /  \   C_PUFFER@UNHH.UNH.EDU
 |    /_____________/      \
 |    |            |  |^|  |        Lord Duncan Forbes
 |    |            |  | |  |         Barony of Stonemarche
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton)
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 06:04:25 GMT

In <715047126.F00003@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:

>DP>  From: thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton)
>DP>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>DP>
>DP>  Nothing at all; it's the producers of the show who seem to think
>DP>  that a Lousy English Accent is preferable to an American one.
>DP>  My point was that they were _trying_ to do English accents in
>DP>  a very lazy and sloppy way (and indeed that the whole show was
>DP>  lazy and sloppy.

>But Dunc, old Dear...they *were* English. They weren't "trying" to do 
>English accents at all...much less lazily. 

Look, Suze, old chum: I've _seen some of the leads interviewed on TV_
and they were American. One of them, the Daughter, talked about the
dialect coach they hired for her. 

I won't speak for the entire cast (some of the accents were either
real or just good enough that I couldn't tell; some were passable) but
I have direct, first-hand knowledge confirming what my ears tell me:
several of them were Americans trying (ineptly) to sound English. 

The fact that some people have been posting here arguing that their
accents were just as authentic as actual English accents would have
been indicates that I'm not the only one on the Rialto who can tell
the difference.

Or is your theory that they are actual English actors who, for the
purposes of _Covington Cross_, put on strange accents that sound
just like Americans doing a bad imitation, then made promotional
appearances on American television for which they not only
constructed fake biographies, but also adopted _perfect_ American
accents. Those English are masters of dialect - if only Kevin
Costner had such skill...

Sorry...

Corwyn of Lincoln


Duncan Thornton          | Astronomy teaches the correct use of the sun and
thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca |      the planets.   - Stephen Leacock
	
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:02:54 GMT

As for space usage, well, my Lady and I had a grand total of 260
or so square feet of land, for two people, half being our tent,
and half our dining fly.  It really wasn't that bad, actually.
We were camping at Herald's Point, and it was rather crowded,
so we skimped on space.  If I had set up everything I wanted
to, however, we would have used only about 100 square feet more,
for two people.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: The Pennsic Snit
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:22:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.014801.20852@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>here's two cents from a member of the unwashed masses:
>
>I go to Pennsic because it's Pennsic. Whether or not it's a war or a
>tourney or a fair, it's still going to be Pennsic. I don't for a second
>believe that the name is going to affect tempers of combatants one tiny
>bit. People who are boneheaded enough to get nasty over an SCA event are
>going to be boneheaded no matter what the thing's called.
	[ ... ]
>
>So please, can't we all just put away these delusions of grandeur for
>good and just get on with making Pennsic the best war it can be?

Well said, Raedwynn. Even if a little harshly. :)
I am curious, though, why no one has dared to mention yet, the Laws
of the East, at least. Somewhere, it states "the Pennsic War". 
Elsewhere it states that royalty cannot change the laws without curia,
even through edict. Did I miss an issue of Pikestaff or something.

So, to those disgruntled types about the name.... Royalty can say what
it likes, but it isn't so until it is in the book. 

I think. 

And anyways, as I was told for my first Pennsic (just Pennsic, not war
or fair or anything) : "Pennsic, my lad, is what _you_ make of it!"

Sebastian
amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Fair
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 21:43:10 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

The concept of a Pennsic Fair will answer the question, "What happens
when AEthelmearc becomes a kingdom?"

The Crown of AEthelmearc would host a Pennsic Faire, and a tournament.
For the "principal battle" of the tourney, the Crown of AEthelmearc
would invite the Crowns of the East and Middle to assemble the two
sides.  They might invite other crowns to lead in some of the minor
battles, while other events, such as some of the archery, might be each
kingdom competing separately.  And, of course, individual challenge
matches (individual being either one kingdom against another, or one
fighter against another.)

I am not sure whether the "principal battle" would be the field or the
woods battle, or maybe both plus a champions or archers battle.  I do
think it would be good to reduce the number of East-Middle competitions
to 5 or less.

Observe that AEthelmearc, as hosts, would have to stay officially
neutral in the various battles, but their fighters could participate on
either side.

If this is a reasonable model for when AEthelmearc becomes a kingdom,
which may be around Pennsic XXV, then what needs to be considered now is,
what should we do between now and then?

Other opinions are welcomed.
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:09:23 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Dani of the Seven Wells
writes:

>I'm going to nit-pick at some of Sarra's details while agreeing with her
>general thesis.  Looking at early English ballads (which is to say, 
>those of the sixteenth century), we find specific names often enough,
>in ballads such as Andrew Barton, and John Dory.  And tales of an historical
>battle (such as Chevy Chase/The Hunting of the Cheviot) will often
>yield sizable role-calls.

Hmmmm ... I think I'm going to nit-pick a nit-pick.  ;^}

Well, yes, no, and sort of.  "Andrew Barton" is on pretty solid ground;
but the first occurrence of "John Dory" is in _Deuteromelia_, Ravenscroft,
1609, so we are on an edge; and such uses of names are _very_ rare. "The 
Hunting of the Cheviot" is also good, in that we have a version from 1559.
By the way, "The Bonny Earl of Murray", although our first versions are
late, we know existed earlier, and doesn't make any sense without the
names; and the same can be said of "The Burning of Auchindoon."

But these are very nearly the complete set for which this is true.  Most
other ballads that are called 15th and 16th C are in a class with "The 
Battle of Harlaw" and severan others, in that we know they _existed_ quite 
early, because there are references to them, but we do not have early 
versions.  

"The Battle of Harlaw" is particularly instructive as to historicity of 
names and events.  Offhand, I count five names: James the Rose, John the 
Graeme, Lord Forbes, "his brother" (which for this purpose, I'll call a 
name ;^), and MacDonnel.  Nice roll call, and lots of neat detail about the 
battle, too, including lots of place names.

Only problem is, by the time you get our first recorded instance of the
words, about 400 years after the actual battle, they've got the wrong
side winning.  How much else of this do _you_ trust is survival, as
opposed to interpolation?

It is still generally the case that period songs that mention explicit
names are the exception rather than the rule.

Anyhow, Dani's main point, which was also Sarra's, is that unless you
look at the songs themselves, you can't _know_ what are the rules and
what are the exceptions.  Whether I, or they, are wrong or right about
specific points is probably less important than that general one, which
both of them have made so very well.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Inspiration (was Re: consort gender)
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:25:51 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings to all, especially Linda of the Lakelands, from Angharad ver'
Rhuawn.  With regard to consorts and inspiration, Linda asks,

>Greetings
>
>I've had sinilar problems on the "inspiration" question. I've had
> gentleman that I don't know walk up to me the eveing before a crown
> and ask if they could fight for me. Is it better to tactfully turn 
>them down, or assume that they are, in fact, inspired by me, and let
> them fight. I would have problems with the latter, due to the oath of 
> invocation where we swear to serve if we win. How do I know if I would 
>be ABLE to serve with this person? Am I taking the whole thing too 
>seriously?  Any suggestions?

You surely know far better than I how much work ruling is!  I don't
see how it could possibly be done well by two people who go into it
as strangers, especially in the West or Caid, where they have only
a four month reign, so that early fumbles are so much more salient.

Were I in a similar position, it occurs to me that I might suggest to
the gentle that I feel awkward serving so without knowing him better,
and that perhaps we might begin now to become friends, and if at a
later tourney he should ask such a question, I could better honor
him by an answer based on my personal knowledge of his excellent
qualities.  Or something?

Anyhow, much as I may inspire him, I would say some version of "no",
for precisely the reason you indicate: I am not sure I can rule with
this person.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brayl@nyx.cs.du.edu (Bill Rayl)
Subject: Elizabethan Fashions
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 16:39:01 GMT


Can any one suggest where I can find patterns and/or info on creating
Elizabethan clothes?  This would b for both men and women.  My local
library doesn't have the right sort of stuff -- mostly play-type fashions.
I'm new at this sort of thing, so please forgive any missteps in
protocol.

                  Pattie Rayl

PS, Tudor fashins will be appreciated too, if that's all that's available.
Thanks for the help!

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Programming/eyeglasses\
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:05:55

     Eadred Aethellystan wrote:
     Not that this thread is particularly relevant to rec.org.sca, but, for
     myself, I have worn glasses to correct for myopia since I was 7 years
     old.  I began programming computers more than a couple of years later.
     I fail to see how programming leads to needing glasses BASED UPON MY
     OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.  Your milage may vary.  I need ask only one
     question: how old were any of you other programmers when you were
     first fitted with glasses?  (Note: this is a mostly rhetorical question...
     it need not be replied to in this forum)

 Oh, I don't know - do we have any actual data on what impact vision
 impairments had in period? If myopia and hyperopia can be "exercised
 away", that would at least dispel one popular misconception about the
 Middle Ages.

 I am 42+ years old; I cannot remember a time that I did not wear glasses
 (which makes it pre-6 years old, I guess). I am a programmer right now,
 but didn't start programming until there were cheap available computers
 (about '83 or so) and only started doing it "professionally" a year ago.

 [On the other hand, I've just gotten through having radial keratotomy, and
 don't wear glasses anymore. I'm sure that will screw up *somebody's*
 data....]

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:50:19 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <23008@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>Branwen writes:

>>A bunny round is actually a short Spanish half-round, initially popularized
>>by Radnor of Guildemar, and exceedingly popular among Guildemarians (Radnor's
>>household, squires, ex-squires, and ex-squire's squires). It's also called
>>the Radnor round.


>Ha!  When *I* first saw that shield, 7 or 8 years agone, they were
>calling it a "Wankel" -- as in the shape of the rotary engine...

>	- Siobhan

What I know as a "wankel" is different in shape from a bunny round. 


      ---------------                 ---------------
      |             |                 \             /
      |             |                  \           /
      |             |                   \         /
      \             /                    \       /
       \           /                      \     /
        -----------                        \   /
                                            \ /

         bunny round                       wankel 
                                   (supposed to be an equilateral triangle)
  (assume bottom is curved)        (assume body of shield is curved outwards)


Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West
--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving books (was Re: ancient kilt; fabric width)
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:31:20 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Konstanza von Brunnenburg (Coni Britten) writes:

>Like Alexander, I also would like to see references of books specifically
>about Period fabrics.  Any recommendations out there?

M. Channing Linthicum's "Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare
and his Contemporaries" isn't specifically about period fabric,
but it does have a very large section (about a third of the book,
if I recall correctly) on that subject.  I recommend it highly.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking Tents (Was: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:01:28 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

To all the good gentles on the Rialto, and especially to Siobhan,
greetings from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Siobhan writes:

>Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan!  Angharad writes:
>>you want a medieval pavilion, and you don't want to use a viking style 
>>(actually, from what I understand, _abuse_ it: viking style tents were 
>>roofs on sod structures, not freestanding tents), it is _very_ hard to 
>
>I beg to differ.  Look into the Tre Tryckare edition (BTW, this is a pet
>peeve of mine: Tre Tryckare is NOT the author's name, it's the press'
>name) big coffee table book called THE VIKING -- around Greyhaven they
>called it "the do-it-yourself viking book".  In the section on
>travelling to Greenland, there's a depiction of a temporary camp, and
>the viking tent there is unmistakably the standard viking a-frame that
>seems to be proliferating around the West...

What good news.  Our library doesn't carry this book.  Is the portrayal
a modern one, or is it a period picture, and if so, could you tell me
where it originates, so that I can try to track it down by other means?

Thank you!

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: accents
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 03:01:26 GMT


>I suppose, however, that most people would associate "historical drama"
>with a british accent, perhaps because so many fine Shakespearean actors
>have come from Great Britain.

One point to ponder: one writer (I think it was in _The History of
English_) made the point that Shakespeare would feel comfortable with
the language of Western Virginia, do reasonably well in Edinburgh, but
have a vurra difficult time understanding Londoners of the modern day.

So to beat a dead Covington Cross, we might argue that if the actors
went to the trouble of faking a British accent, they would be just as
wrong as if they didn't bother doing anything at all.  (Ah, well, then
which is more morally wrong: to try and do badly, or not to try at
all...?)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:02:59 GMT

Perhaps someone from the West could answer more authoritatively, but in 
essence it is:

a 26"x26" of shield, the lower half of which is turned for a round shield, 
the upper is made like a heater.

Strykar
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Edward Zifran of Gendy (was Re: Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: 29 Aug 92 22:39:29 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Corun MacAnndra writes:
> The Landocrats this year (yes, there are two of them)
> are Finn of the midrealm (I don't know him and so don't know his entire name)
> and Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master Edward, 
      \                                 / |     | |           |
       Four time ruler of a principality, |     | |           |
       this I understand.                 |     | \           /
                                          |     |  One Laurel,
                                          |     |  one Pelican,
                                          |     |  got it!
                                          |     |
                                         /       \
                                         Knighted
                                         twice????

> known affectionately as Fast Eddie. 

I was once assigned a unit he was in, as a scout, at Pennsic.  He asked me if 
I knew heraldry.  Not wanting to sound like a braggart, I didn't say I had
been a warrented herald for years, I just said "Yes."  He held up his shield
and asked, "What would you tell your commander if you saw this shield?"  I 
replied, "Fast Eddie's a-cummin!!" (He was not the head of the unit, nor had 
we been introduced.  I had not recognized him, but his shield.)  After the 
howls of laughter died down and the unit regained their composure, one of the 
fighters took me aside and explained that only his closest friends refer to 
him as Fast Eddie to his face.  Oooops!      
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: Blue Feather and "poof-da" ?????
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 23:03:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.120321.7084@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander)) writes:
>
>Maybe it has to do with taking seriously my own admonition 
>about making charitable assumptions regarding what people 
>mean in their posts, but it never ocurred to me that "poof-da" 
>in the original post was a reference to either gays or effeminate 
>behaviour.  What passed through my mind when I saw it was
>(Carnival barker's voice):
> 
>          'Ladies & Gentlemen, before your very eyes -- drumroll
>          please -- abracadabra, poof-da -- it's a tourney!'

Conversely, as an Australian, the first thing that passed through _my_ mind
was "Oh no, here comes a flame war on gay rights". The gentle concerned has
posted that he was unaware of the negative connotations of the term, and I
think this discussion should return to debating "Pennsic - War or Tourney?"
or die out (For the benefit of US readers, Poofter is a very strong term
in Australian or British usage, objectionable even to most gays I know.) 

>Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East
>
>Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
>carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.