HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trivedi@curie.uchicago.edu (Anil Trivedi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Zero and India not Arabs.
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:03:37 GMT
Organization: Enrico Fermi Institute, University of Chicago.


I can't believe that this has flared up again! Oh well, here we go.


In article <1992Apr14.200719.33088@slate.mines.colorado.edu> imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.145020.2701@vax1.umkc.edu> vkuttikattu@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Apr07.073012.30344@slate.mines.colorado.edu>, imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:

MI:
>>> 		" Zero was introduced by the Arabs...

KP:
>>FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION THE CONCEPT OF zero WAS CONCIEVED BY THE 
>>ANCIENT INDIAN MATHEMATICIAN Aryabhatta AND NOT BY THE Arabs.
>>                                              Kunnath Paulose


MI:
>0   For your kind information zero was introduced by Umer Khyyam the great
>0   Mathematician of his times and not by the Aryabhattia. In the days of
>0 Abbasi Regime Baghdad was the centre of culture and science. India was then
>0 in dark. They were arabs who introduced bright culture to india the islam.
>0 Bo Ali Sena was the greatest scientist of his days and many other arabs
>0 whose names I dont remember.
>0 Next time please dont give any credit to indians for introducing zero.


Mustafa, did you just get annoyed at Kunnath's tone, or do you really
believe this?


Anyway: 

Zero was known to at least three civilizations LONG before Umer Khyyam:
Babylonians, Mayans, and Indians.

You are right in one sense: when Baghdad was at its peak, India's golden
period was long behind them. However, it was not in the dark, only not as
great as it used to be. In fact, Arabs had come to India BECAUSE it was
still a wealthy and developed place. Zero and modern arithmetic had already
been invented long ago.
 
Arabs did both bad and good things to India: As would be expected in any
military conquest, they destroyed a lot. But as you point out, they also
brought a lot, including Islam. That Islam was introduced to India in that
atmosphere (of conquest and violence that necessarily follows military
conquests) still haunts religious relations there.

We can give or not give credit as we please, but history is one thing
that should be learned, not wished.

Regards.

-- Anil Trivedi
From: souissi@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: About the explosion
Date: 6 Apr 92 04:31:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: en.1992Apr6.043134.14336
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <14880@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:
>In article <31336@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>>> bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) writes:
>>
>>>I guess you believe that the appropriate response from the Lebanese
>>>people to the Israeli invasion of their country is to say:  "Thank
>>>you very much.  Please occupy our country and murder us.  You  are
>>>most welcome to stay here as long as you want.  "
>>
>>	Of course not.  I only expect the Lebanese to say that
>>	to the Syrian occupiers.
>
>That won't happen, likely.  The Syrians are Arabs/Muslims, while
>the Israelis are neither (plus they're considered Zionist
>colonialist tools of the West).  The pressures of Arab nationalism
>and Dar al Islam would not allow this.
>
>But you knew this already.  :-{
>

The occupation of the Syrians to Lebanon doesn'tj ustify the
occupation of Israel to Palestine.  IMO both are wrong.
Even though the two occupations are different, they are illegal and
both foreign occupiers must leave.
>
>>>And who could argue with Hezbollah's and the Palestinian's experience
>>>that the only language that the Israelis can communicate in is
>>>"force" as evidenced by the way the colonization of Palestine took
>>>place.
>>
>>	Egypt.
>
>Sadat is a good example of why we will never see Syria and
>Israel treated equally vis-a-vis occupying parts of Lebanon
>(and the Syrians don't have guerilla bases launching attacks
>on them from there).  At least not in this generation.
>

Egypt has 50+ million people.  I expect a good number of them
disapprove of the occupation of Palestine by Israel and the
horrible treatment of the Palestinians.  However they can not
do anything about it as their country is bound by the treaty
(except for a few events we hear from time to time).
>--
>Dave Bakken                               Internet: bakken@cs.arizona.edu
>Dept. of Computer Science; U of Arizona   Voice:    +1 602 621 4089      
>Tucson, AZ 85721; USA                     FAX:      +1 602 621 4246
>The fact that you're paranoid doesn't prove they're *not* out to get you.
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: settlements
Originator: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 18:50:02 GMT

>Shame on you. Shame on you Mr. Idriss. Are you munafeq or what?

Anwar

The word munafeq makes me feel bad. But I will take with no hard feelings
because I would have said it if I misunderstood the motives of a person who
writes something like I did. I would like to explain my position to you.

First, if you monitored my previous postings, you will find out that I stated
over and over that Palestine was given by the British to the Jews illegally and
I got responses from Jewish people claiming the opposite and I wrote them back 
and we entered in a loop of discussion.

Second, I did not know that the writer of the article was a settler from the West
bank from my ignorance of occupied territories. However, we have been blamed for
years that we are negative and we say "NO" for everybody and since the peace conference
is blessed by almost all arab countries, I don't see any reason why we should not be 
positive.

I hope that you realize that the Palestinian had enough suffering. They have been
kicked like a ball for the past 40+ years by everybody including the arab world.

I feel bad for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gazza, it is time for them to
live like human beings.

I will repeat my position again - "I DO NOT SUPPORT THE SETTLEMENT ON THE WEST BANK
AND GAZZA". If you still think that I am still munafeq after I explained my position
to you, please E-mail me and I will be glad to explain more. Or may be you will 
enlighten me on things I do not see.

Sorry for posting the reply on s.c.a when I received you message via E-mail. My 
E-mail receives, but does not send.
Nabil
From: bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: About the explosion
Date: 9 Apr 92 01:45:15 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <15066@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bakken@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Bakken) writes:

>Anyone who thinks that the US would deliberately bomb civilians
>(like here or in the accidental downing of the Iranian airliner
>a while back) is an ignorant fool (I used those words advisedly)
>and is showing utter contempt and ignorance of the American people.

I should clarify one thing.  I said some sharp words, which I
stand by totally.  But some will undoubtedly assume I think that
the US has done no wrong and can do no wrong.  This is not true
by any means---I am no blind ``super-patriot.''  Indeed, the US
has made many mistakes (one of the big ones being leaning too much
towards Israel in the Arab/Israeli conflict in the past).  And
Americans have made many mistakes (remember Lt. Calley shooting
civilians in VietNam? That came to light after not too long and he
was held responsible for his actions.  And Americans were outraged).
--
Dave Bakken                               Internet: bakken@cs.arizona.edu
Dept. of Computer Science; U of Arizona   Voice:    +1 602 621 4089      
Tucson, AZ 85721; USA                     FAX:      +1 602 621 4246
The fact that you're paranoid doesn't prove they're *not* out to get you.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: mmasood@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mohammed A Masood)
Subject: UN Peace Plan & Afghanistan
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 19:04:02 GMT

	WHY UN "PEACE" EFFORTS IN AFGHANISTAN SHOULD BE DENOUNCED

	*********************************************************

	United Nations has recently accelerated its efforts to bring
"peace" to Afghanistan.  The question arises where were these efforts
when the Afghan people were being killed through Napalm Bombs and the
Machine Guns of the communist soldiers?  Can the peace be established
on the charred bodies of 2M Afghans in the way UN is proposing it to
be established?  Or, does the exterminator of 2M human human beings
has a right to ask for peace?  Can we ever hope to abolish injustice
in this way?

	For those who remember WWII, would you have agreed to Hitler's
call for peace or a share for the war criminals in the German
Government when the Allied forces were just 30 miles away from Berlin?
Wouldn't it seem to be the most absurd and outrageous idea to you?
Would you have agreed to anything less than an unconditional
surrender?  Would it have been justified for the League of Nations to
promote peace at that point?

	Or, would it have been justified for Nikoli Chousesko to talk
about peace when his castle was under siege?  Would you, as a freedom
loving individual, have granted his request for peace?  Do you find
any mercy for such a criminal in your heart?  Would you have supported
any such an effort by the UN?

In a similar way, it is absurd for the UN to promote peace and a
coexistence for communists at this point in Afghanistan.  The blood of
2M Afgans is not so cheap.  The freedom fighters did not sacrifice 2M
of their brethren to see themselves robbed of a victory in the name of
peace.  

It is time for every freedom loving person to denounce so-called
"peace" efforts by UN.
From: eab@uh.msc.edu (Edward Bertsch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Teaching position in Oman - Computer Hardware
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:28:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: uc.1992Apr16.232845.25877
Organization: Minnesota Supercomputer Center


A friend of the family works in the Sultanate of Oman, and asked me
to pass on word about a position teaching Computer Hardware in a
Uinversity there.

If you are interested in this position, and have what you feel are
the proper qualifications, please contact me.

Some possible educational qualifications may be

	Masters level or above
		Computer Engineering
		Electrical Engineering with Computer focus

or comparible professional experience including experience teaching.

I presume that knowledge of written and spoken Arabic is helpful,
but not necessary.

Please respond by e-mail.


Salam
--

Edward A. Bertsch (eab@msc.edu)   Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.
Operations/User Services          1200 Washington Avenue South
(612) 626-1571 work               Minneapolis, Minnesota  55415
(612) 645-0168 voice mail

	"Read _MY_ lips: I won't be voting for Bush in 1992"
From: ahmed@cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Zero and Arabs
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:40:29 GMT
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Trinity College, Dublin.

In <1992Apr07.073012.30344@slate.mines.colorado.edu> imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:

>Sender: Muslim
>Followup-To: none
>Distribution: usa
>Organization: Colorado School of Mines
>Keywords: time is running out


>Dear Arab Brothers,

>        Assalam Alaykum


>	I want to draw your attention to an interesting point.


>		" Zero was introduced by the Arabs. Now 
>		 the Arabs are Zero themselves".


>	Any comment to this statement would be appreciated.


>	Thanks.


> 				Your brother in islam
>				ibrahim mustata	
 
I have the following comments:

* Is your name Ibrahim Mustata, or Mustafa ? 
* You are talking to soc.culture.arabic, and you sign as a brother in
  Islam, brother to who? to the arabs, they may not be muslims?
* Did you realize that you might be offending some honest arabs?
* Thank you for your compliment, though your quotation is not new.


Any way keep posting, you will realize that some arabs are more than
zero, and some others are below zero, and you will find that
generalization is not always correct.

salama
From: mgoller@uceng.UC.EDU (Michael Goller)
Subject: Re: About the explosion
Summary: State of War
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Cincinnati
Distribution: soc.culture.jewish
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 00:49:24 GMT

Israel did NOT impose a state of war on the Middle East (unless its very
existence by definition implies the unacceptability of peace with its 
neighbors.)  Quite the contrary, a state of war was imposed on ISRAEL
by the invasion of Arab armies into the former British Mandate in 1948.
The proof that such a formal state of war still exists is the lack of 
peace treaties between the belligerents (excluding Egypt.)  Technically
the Arab world is still at war (this includes:Tunisia,Morocco,ALgeria,Libya,
Syria,Lebanon,Iraq,((Iran, though they are not Arabs)),Jordan,Oman,UAE,Kuwait,
Saudi,Bahrain,Qatar,Yemen,I don't think i left anyone out, no offense if
I did.
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Zero and Arabs
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:45:10 GMT

trivedi@curie.uchicago.edu (Anil Trivedi) writes:
: 
: Modern number system was developed, and Zero invented, in India.
: Throughout history, that has been openly acknowledged by Arab mathematicians
: and histroians, as you would expect from scholars of integrity. It is the
: Europeans who confused the issue and, just as they did with "Indians" of
: Americas, never bothered to set it right.
: 
  This is absolutly true, the decimal numerals were invented by Indians, they
were transferred by Arabs to Europe in the 10th century (if my memory is
correct) by a Bishop who was living in Catalogne (Spain). Arabs adopted this
system because they were excellent Arithemicians, and they needed to realise
complicated calculations which were impossible to do using the old Roman
system.

: (BTW, a good clue to the non-Arab roots of numerals is that while Arabs
: write their text from right to left, they write their numbers from left
: to right: as it was done in India.
  True, what it's interesting to notice is we (Arabs) use also indian numerals
and not Arabic numerals (used in the west). There has been an effort to restore
the use of Arabic numerals instead of the indian ones, but it's very difficult
to change a habit.
: Similarly, the fact that the hours, minutes, degrees, etc are divided into
: 60 units--how hard have some tried to change that!--goes back to Babylon.)
: 
  I think you are confusing Babylonians with Somarians (I'm quite sure here)
The numeral system based on 60 was invented by Somarians (the oldest
misopotamian civilization). This was nearly 1000 years before Babylonians.

  Regards.
-- 
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. ouicheck@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: American attitudes toward the Gulf War
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:27:10 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Apr12.161852.77@mtechca.uucp> foster@mtechca.uucp (self.attribute:=major_arcana[0].name) writes:
>In article <2467@creatures.cs.vt.edu>, Ahmed Bouzid writes:
>I am not even sure what the sentence means, and I know for certain that very
>few Americans, especially of the uneducated war-supporting classes, use the 
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How condescending.

It seemed to me that a good portion(*) of the war protesters during the Gulf 
crisis were pretty uneducated themselves.  Garbage about conspiracies conjured
out of thing air; talk of countries built on oil wells yet no mention of the
people who had lived there for centuries and were being systematically tortured,
killed, or driven out; apologies for Saddam Hussein's horrific crimes and rampant 
bashing of Kuwait, despite its relative(**) benignity.

I don't know...takes some pretty ignorant folks to unquestioningly swallow 
that line.

During this war I learned one very valuable lesson: The American Left *lies*, 
*cheats*, and *sleazes* its way through life as well and as thoroughly as any 
right-wing group does.  I second Jeff's call for a reading of _Mother_Jones_
...for a prime example of how the truth can be twisted and molded to meet 
one's political criteria.  It's as good an example as any ultra-conservative 
rag.

If Ahmed Bouzid really thinks the U.S. was callous in it war against Iraq, 
that it had no regard for civilian life, I wonder what he thinks of the way
*all* Arab governments (especially Iraq) treat their own citizens.

>
>Jeff Foster

-anwar

(*) By no means all protesters, but a large, vocal portion of them and their 
organizers.

(**) Relative to other countries in the Middle East.
-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome!)   School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: obaidr@bullet.ecf (OBAID ARIF)
Subject: Arafat lost?!
Originator: obaidr@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:58:22 GMT

Not that I care, but Yasser Arafat's plane was missing yesterday!!

The great thing about it is that a U.S. SPY satellite spotted the missing
plane which was in a wind storm !!!

It's about time we found out for sure that the satellite works!

Arif Obaid
From: souissi@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Zero and Arabs
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:24:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: noose.1992Apr8.032426.11816
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Apr8.000731.29997@midway.uchicago.edu> trivedi@rabi.uchicago.edu (Anil Trivedi) writes:
>In article <1992Apr07.073012.30344@slate.mines.colorado.edu> imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:
>>
>>		" Zero was introduced by the Arabs. Now 
>>		 the Arabs are Zero themselves".
>>
>>	Any comment to this statement would be appreciated.
>>
>
>"Zero was introduced by the Arabs":
>
>No it wasn't, except to Eurocentric minds. It has long been known and
>accepted that zero was invented by Indians; modern scholarship suggests
>that Mayans and Babylonians may have independently arrived at it also.
>Europeans learnt about it from the Arabs.
>

I always thought that the Arabs have invented the zero.  I didn't do
any research on the subject, and I hope that other posters can
enlighten us more on the subject.  There are other scientific
achievements by the Arabs, but they are hardly acknowleged in the
West, and are attributed to other western scientists.

Anyway the original poster wrote "Zero was INTRODUCED by the Arabs",
he dindn't write INVENTED.  He might have meant introduced to
the West (Europe) by the Arabs.
>
>"Arabs are Zero themselves"
>
>I am not an Arab but the ones I have met can hardly be described that way. 
>Well, may be a few of them, but then which group doesn't have its share 
>of zeros?  :-) 

I think that Arabs are overall Zero nowdays.  I am not talking about
individual Arabs whom you find many bright people among them.
Just look at universities and other scientific establishments
around the world ( and notably the US), you would find many Arabs
(and Muslims) among the faculty ...
However if you look at the situation of the Arab world, it is
depressing: economically, politically, scientifically, ...
that is what is meant by the statement, and Arabs should blame
mostly themselves for this.
From: assaleh@eagle.rutgers.edu (Khaled Assaleh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: SCDOWN
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:43:36 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Apr7.083646.1753@memstvx1.memst.edu> mcsweinberg@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:

> For a class I need to get some ideas on how physical geography divides the
> Dialecs of Arabic in the middle east. Any idea's regardless how small will
> be greatly appreciated.
>
> Mail to MCSWEINBERG@MSUVX1.MEMST.EDU

I chose not to reply to you directly to make my reply available for everybody for the sake 
of fine tunings.
This reply is based on my personal experience with different fellows from several Arab
countries:

As anyone would expect, adjacent countries have closer dialects. Syria, Lebanon, Joradn, and
Palestine can be considered as one group. The Gulf states with Iraq can be grouped also with
a little more diversity. Egypt and Sudan form one group. Other north African Arab countries
are kind of different from each other and very different from other Arab countries 
(dialectwise I mean). They're heavily affected by French and other local languages that was
used before Islam.
Yamen has a unique dialect which is a mixture of many dialects.
Interestingly, Somalia and Djiboti have non-arabic languages, and therefore 
can't be classified.  

Khaled
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: ashraf@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Ashraf Mahmoud)
Subject: Re: About the explosion
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Distribution: soc.culture.jewish
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:54:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.004924.11851@uceng.UC.EDU> mgoller@uceng.UC.EDU (Michael Goller) writes:
>Israel did NOT impose a state of war on the Middle East (unless its very
>existence by definition implies the unacceptability of peace with its 
              ^^^^^^^^^^
If the definition implies:
- uprooting already existing arab villages (From previous article, about 400 
village are either erased from the face of the map or replaced by new Israeli 
settlements/towns with new names), 
- carrying out some massacres againts the original inhabitants (Kafr Quasim, Deer Yassen,...),
- exploiting while depriving Palastines from the resources of their lands, 
- continuing the attrocities againts the original people of West Bank (black 
Sunday, Gaza's incedent, ...) because they refuse to see a soldier pointing 
a gun towards their children while protecting a settler who is building his 
new settlement on their land, 
... etc,  
Then most probably you are right about your "unless" statement.

>neighbors.)  Quite the contrary, a state of war was imposed on ISRAEL
>by the invasion of Arab armies into the former British Mandate in 1948.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Those Arab armies, believed they are going to liberate their land from 
an occupier. These armies did not believe that Palestine is a promised 
land for the jews, because they are not jews. 
What do you call "the former British Mandate" is referred to by Palestine
by the NOBIL legal body at least during those early days.

>The proof that such a formal state of war still exists is the lack of 
>peace treaties between the belligerents (excluding Egypt.)  Technically
>the Arab world is still at war (this includes:Tunisia,Morocco,ALgeria,Libya,
>Syria,Lebanon,Iraq,((Iran, though they are not Arabs)),Jordan,Oman,UAE,Kuwait,
>Saudi,Bahrain,Qatar,Yemen,I don't think i left anyone out, no offense if
>I did.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.asean
From: badr@cs.washington.edu (Badr H. Al-Badr)
Subject: Re: An Absence of Saints
Followup-To: soc.culture.arabic
Organization: Planet Earth Residents
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 00:48:25 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.120902.30012@davidsys.com> khan@davidsys.com writes:
> [ . . . ]
>the Vice President of the Universe, 
>Muhammad Mustafa, the Rasul-Allah [saw].
>  [ . . . ]

At first, Jinns worked as police officers; then came Jinns in full color;
now we have a vice president of the Universe?!! 

This seems to be going too far! Lets not innovate in Islam, the word of
Allah, the Quran, and Sunna of the prophet [pbuh] are more than enough for
us Muslims.  

>                          Your servant,
>                                  Silat Man.


    Badr Al-Badr
    Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering
    Mail Stop FR-35                            
    University of Washington