From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:15:00 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep14.134227.22187@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>In article <14SEP199206453361@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
> 
>>
>>Finally, I submit to those of you  who disagree with AA the 
>>following question:  Articles such as the Ithaca Journal one
>>posted earlier show that there are still problems where
>>women's applications are not taken seriously.  My own
>>experience shows that in the sciences this problem is
>>a big one.  So, if AA is not the way to go, propose a
>>solution.  
> 
>The problem that I have with your approach is that you dont look
>at the picture as a whole: every reasonable person would like to see
>racism and sexism disappearing. The questions are (1) Is affirmative
>action effective ? From what we read it is not. (2) Even if
>worked, who has to pay the price for it ? Affirmative action implies
>that people who have nothing to do with discrimination and some of
>them immigrated recently to the US, and their ancestors could not
>be involved in racism in this country are being hurt. I have not read
>in your position much that address this question. Honest supporters
>of affirmative action at least acknowledge the problem but you choose
>to evade it. You would not want to cure one person's failing kidney
>by forcing a healty person to a hospital and taking away his kidney.
>would you ?
> 
>>

If you have read my position carefully, you would see that I 
recognize how imperfect the situation is.  I also gave my view
of affirmative action in terms of doing extra effort to ensure
that qualified minority applicants are considered and not
ignored and that when we have a list of otherwise
well-qualified applicants, that there are non-technical reasons
which can enter into a hiring.  You refuse to accept this view
and go on to say that I am obviously not being fully honest
when I say this.  

Your medical analogy is an interesting one, but perhaps not 
totally appropriate (as is the case with most analogies).  Your
assumption here is that in the absence of affirmative action, 
that there is some applicant out there who "deserved" to
get that job and that affirmative action is taking it away
from him.  Again, even if you don't accept it, my view (and
the view of many in the field) of affirmative action states that
the minorities whose application would have been ignored in 
the first place are getting a second look and now people are
realizing that they are indeed qualified.  Previously, manyyy
would have been dismissed out of hand without a serious
look.  The more appropriate medical analogy may indeed lie in 
the area of transplants:  we have few donatable organs and many
people who need them.  What criteria do we apply to choose 
which of the many needy recipients should receive the next
available one?  This is exactly what we have been discussing
in terms of hiring.  

I don't have the final answer to this and my thoughts are not
so much an attempt to go out and change the rest of the world
as they are an attempt to open up a free exchange of ideas
that will lead us further down the path to eliminating some
of these problems.  The only trouble I have is the belief that
in the absence of affirmative action the hiring will be made on
some noble, pure, scientific basis.  Nothing is further from
the truth.  People ask for a level playing field and advocate
getting rid of affirmative action.  But, the playing field is
anything but level. If you got a position and found out that
a "more qualified" female applicant was completely ignored in 
the selection process, would you willingly give up that 
position because the hiring process wasn't proper?

I come back to the same question I posed before:  it is well and
good to complain about AA.  I respect your opinions and agree
with much of what you say in terms of general philosophy.  But,
we must live in and interact with the real world.  So, I ask 
again, make some proposal as to what we can do about the
current situation instead of just complaining about AA.

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers