HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Re: #1 Brahms & Wagner #2 Brahms & Rachmaninov
Organization: Visual
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:21:13 GMT

First off, let me say I find the "Subject" header for this thread
rather cumbersome and uninformative.  :-)

Chris Colby writes:

>In a recent _Fanfare_, there was an unqualified rave for a new Moravec
>issue (can't remember the vintage of the performance, but I think '80s) of
>one of the two concertos (I think the First).  The review was rather
>convincing in that the reviewer claimed it was one of his favorite pieces
>and labeled this performance the best he had heard out of a very large
>field.  I can't remember the label.  

Supraphon.

>He concluded by hoping they would
>release a Moravec Second.  I've seen them both around, but I haven't yet
>bought them.

I have only the Moravec Second, and could kick myself for not having
grabbed the First at the same time.  It hasn't since reappeared here
in either of our Tower stores or in HMV.

It is a performance with both bravura and poetry -- as one can expect
from Moravec.  Having heard it, I truly hope to get the First someday....

>These are great works.  I have Gilels/DG, whose Second I personally prefer
>to Rubenstein/RCA, but obviously there are many who feel the opposite.

As always, Chris, you've got terrific taste.  :-)  I too love the Gilels.
What's great about the Brahms Second is that so many outstanding 
performances are available, in every vintage.  My favorites, in no
particular order:

  Richter/Leinsdorf on RCA.  Famous performance.
  
  Barenboim/Barbirolli on Angel (remaindered in Tower -- uh-oh).  As
  excellent as the First they did.  Barenboim shows tremendous power
  and feeling.  

  Gilels/Reiner on RCA.  This is a *budget* disc, believe it or not.
  The earlier Gilels effort.

  Gilels/Jochum on DG, as already mentioned.

  Moravec/("can't recall") on Supraphon, as already mentioned.  The
  only one on this list that's DDD, if that matters.


You really couldn't go wrong with any of these.  What's fascinating to 
me is that my favorite Firsts would probably be the companion
performances of each of the above (except as far as I know there's no
Gilels/Reiner First, and I'm only anticipating that the Moravec is
as good as the Second.)

Rob


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: turney@cs.cornell.edu (Jenn Turney)
Subject: Re: Wagner - What Can We Say ?
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:53:52 GMT

Good God!  Think of listening to Wagner for a whole fortnight with a
woman who takes about as much interest in music as a tone-deaf newt---
that would be fun!
				-- Marcel Proust, _Swann's Way_

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| turney@cs.cornell.edu | Dept of Computer Science | Cornell University |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| She winced at his response of such a gratuitous "Wow": it said little |
| for his seizure of her meaning and even less for his lexicon.         |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hsmoliar+@DB1.SPEECH.CS.CMU.EDU (Harold Smoliar)
Subject: bass info
Originator: hsmoliar@DB1.SPEECH.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:18:40 GMT


Sorry to take up so much space but my e-mail to you bounced.  Hope that you
get this.

To: GSRGAAO@TECHNION.BITNET
Subject: Re: Need to find the address of Kolstein's
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 15:07:40 EST
From: hsmoliar@DB1.SPEECH.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <92319.123708GSRGAAO@TECHNION.BITNET> you write:
>Dear Group,
>   I am a double bass player in this isolated country of Israel,
>and I have run out of resin for my bow.  I know there is a store in
>the NYC area, called Kolsteins (I think they recently moved from
>NYC to Westchester or CT, which sells EVERYTHING that a bass player
>could desire.
>   Could somebody out there send me Kolstein's address, so I could write them
>for a current catalogue. I know that double bass resin is not a subject
>you can talk endlessly about, but I need some badly.  Any help would
>be very much appreciated.
>
>                           David Tal

Samuel Kolstein and Son Ltd.
795 Foxhurst Road
Baldwin  NY  11510
516-546-9300

or

Lemur Music Inc
PO Box 5201
Bloomington  IN  47407

My colleagues in the bass section reccomend both and say that the prices may
be better at Lemur.

Harold Smoliar
English horn, Pittsburgh Symphony
Piano, Symphony Jazz Quartet
hsmoliar@db1.speech.cs.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Music to calm down by
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:39:02 GMT

In article <3344@voodoo.UUCP>, das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes:
|> At work these days, I seem to be in a constant state of stress, and have
|> been thinking that some soothing music might help greatly.  I love classical
|> music, but don't have a whole lot of exposure to it.  I would greatly
|> appreciate recommendations for music that has a calming effect.

Much of what we call classical music, even the quietest, depends on
generating and relaxing tension (yes, I know that's an oversimplification,
but I think it's germane to the query).  Try almost anything New Age
instead, if you can still find it in the stores :-)
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Allberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen!  Ewig... ewig... earwig... O!
From: parson_r@cubldr.colorado.edu (Robert Parson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Musicians rubbishing composers !
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:50:55 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <17508@mindlink.bc.ca>, Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
> Glenn Gould didn't like Mozart very much. (After listening to him playing the
> Sonatas, I can believe this!! In fact, in a book by producer Andrew Kadzin
> (sp?), Gould supposedly told A.K. while recording the piece that he was doing
> it in a weird way to piss people off or words to that effect.) There is a
> long article in the Glenn Gould Reader where GG demonstrates that the only
> worthwhile thing Mozart wrote was one passage, I think in one of his late
> symphonies, which has some unusual structure resembling either 12-tone or
> serial technique. (I don't have the book here, I may be a bit off...)
> 
 Take a look at the liner notes (Gould wrote them) for Gould's recording of
 the Beethoven Pathetique, Moonlight and Appassionata sonatas. He thoroughly
 trashes the Appassionata, ranking it somewhere between the King Stephen 
 overture and "Wellington's Victory". (It's a typically eccentric recording.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pmy@vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu (Pete Yadlowsky)
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:32:27 GMT

Josh Ronsen writes

>	I thought that the "primary" motive for Cage to write this
>piece was to write a piece of music completely free of (his)
>intention.

Well, if it was to be _completely_ free of his intention he would
never have written it, I guess. His reason for using chance
operations was to get his personal likes and dislikes out of the way
to the point that the audience (himself included) could experience
sound, space and time afresh. This is opposed to the usual
witness to composer's and performers' personal tastes which are
likely tied to established aesthetic convention.

At any rate, he applied chance operations to quite a few works, but
I think the principal inspiration for 4'33" in particular was his
experience in the anechoic chamber in which he discovered that there
was really no such thing as silence. He remarks on this incident
often as a pivotal point in his career. 


--
Peter M. Yadlowsky              |  Wake! The sky is light!
Academic Computing Center       | Let us to the Net again...
University of Virginia          |    Companion keyboard.
pmy@Virginia.EDU                |                      - after Basho
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Subject: Turangalila Symphony
Organization: University of Western Ontario
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:26:12 GMT

Does anyone share my impression of "Joie du Sang des Etoiles" as a 
country hoedown gone mad? I love the piece but I think of Aaron Copland + 
Ondes Martenot.

r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Western Business School  --  London, Ontario
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Re: Rachmaninoff's cello or 2nd?
Organization: Visual
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:32:16 GMT

>i have the coupling of 2nd symphony and vocalise conducted by
>andrew litton.  EXCELLENT! i recommend it without hesitation
>its on Virgo (i think) and the recording engineers have done and awesome job
>naren
>chemical engineering
>yale university

Yes!  I agree with you 100%.  Litton's "Enigma Variations" is also on
the Virgo series.  It was my favorite the first time it was released,
at full-price.  On the reissue it's paired with the viola transcription
of the Elgar Cello Concerto, which I'd be curious to hear but not 
curious enough to re-buy something I already have.  :-)

Litton's entire Rachy series is reputed to be wonderful.

Rob


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Recommended Classical Recordings
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 19:08:42 GMT

A few suggestions for the otherwise excellent classical music
recommendations.

 The English composer Sir Michael Tippett should definitely be in
 some of these lists!

 UPPER CASE : Definites.         Lower case: My preferences

 L8 : Classical and Romantic choral works

          Schubert : Mass in Eb

 L9 : Operas

          Change BRITTEN's Billy Budd to PETER GRIMES
          Change Glass's Akhnaten to Satyagraha (sp?)

          Also include Bartok  : Bluebeard's Castle
                       TIPPETT : MIDSUMMER MARRIAGE or Ice Break or KNOT
                                 GARDEN.

 L10/L11 : Music between 1900/1918 and 1920/1945 respectively

         SIBELIUS : SYMPHONY #4, #5  (forgotten when they were written)

 L12 : Music written 1945+

         TIPPETT : FANTASIA ON A THEME OF CORELLI

 L13   Piano concerti

         Schoenberg : Piano Concerto

 L15   Symphonies

         Distinct lack of British composers here !

         Include  Vaughan Williams : #3, #5
                  TIPPETT          : #2, #4
                  Maxwell Davies   : #1

         Also   Shostakovich       : #5, #7, #10

 L16   Piano music

         PROKOFIEV : SONATAS #6 or #7 or #8
         SCRIABIN  : SONATAS #3 or #4 or #5

David
--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Albuquerque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 19:22:36 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.170643.16338@syma.sussex.ac.uk> sfue5@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Andrew Richards) writes:
>From article <g8FkuB7w165w@student.business.uwo.ca>, by r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith):
>> It's a poll--who do you think is the worst famous composer of them all?
>> 
>> Let me start it off. I think it's Delius. Then again maybe it's Arthur 
>> Bliss.
>
>Try Bartok. He's the worst for my money...

Interesting diversity.  Some of us think that Bartok is one of the
giants.  If he had written nothing but the 6 String Quartets, that
would have been sufficient.  It's virtually impossible to write a
string quartet now without showing an influence from Bartok's.

I nominate Philip Glass.  Yet his background score for the movie "A
Brief History of Time" working perfectly, and, perhaps no other
composer could have written an equally effective score.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
From: ian.murray@synapse.org (Ian Murray) 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: oboe music sought
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:13:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SYNAPSE BBS - GATINEAU, QUEBEC - 819-561-4321
Reply-To: ian.murray@synapse.org (Ian Murray) 

On 11-17-92, Ln wrote to All regarding oboe music sought

  
L >Any recommendations for something relatively difficult and 
L >preferably baroque 

I'd recommend Burkhard Glaetzner's performing Vivaldi's Oboe Sonatas 
released on Capriccio label.

 << Ian >>

---
 . WinQwk 2.0 #0 . Unregistered Evaluation Copy
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Clarinet construction
From: fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov (Fred McKenzie)
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:27:44 EST
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA/Kennedy Space Center, Florida

In article <1992Nov17.161018.18555@tc.fluke.COM>, strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm
Strong) wrote:
> All the good clarinets I have seen were made of ebony, a wood in
> increasingly short supply.

Norm-

What are the "red" clarinets made of?  Are they just a variety of ebony? 
I've only seen one or two.

According to many, the metal clarinets of the 30's and 40's, have a
brighter, more penetrating tone.  "Ebonite" has been around for quite a
while, and appears in many student instruments.  I suspect that there would
be professional models using one of these alternate materials, if they
would sound the same.

It seems to me that making one out of any material that is significantly
different from ebony, creates a distinctly different instrument.  It would
be interesting to be around in 100 years, to see how things turn out!

fred-mckenzie@ksc.nasa.gov
(Bass Clarinet, Melbourne Municipal Band)

(My metal clarinet sounds penetrating because its so badly out of tune!)
From: jean@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jonathan Powell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: St. John's Passion--Erato
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:35:15 GMT
Reply-To: jean@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jonathan Powell)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: jean@doc.cc.utexas.edu

Hello,

I have recently become a humongous fan of the Johannes Passion by J.S.
Bach.  I have heard a recording from 1979(?) on a label called Erato.  I
have also heard an Archiv production of it.  I **much** prefer the Erato.
Does anyone know if this disc is still in print?  I can't seem to find it
anywhere.   Also, any reccomendations on some other quality recordings of
it?

And in a slightly different vein, I know he has a St. Matthew's passion,
and I have heard rumors of a St. Mark's--anyone know the scoop? You can
just e-mail me if you don't feel like posting.

Thanks,

Jonathan Powell
From: "richard wyble" <richard.wyble@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: looking for a source
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:43:00 EST
Reply-To: "richard wyble" <richard.wyble@channel1.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

RL |Patelson's sells this sort of thing.  Give 'em a call.  No number handy,
RL |but they're on 56th St, just behind Carnegie, not that you don't know
RL |that, Gabe...8-)

Try (212) 582-5840

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Richard J. Wyble, Worcester, MA       Internet: richard.wyble@channel1.com
                      Written Thu, 11-19-92, at 10:45pm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #12515  
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Verdi's Rigoletto
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:45:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.195604.13357@umr.edu> JEFFS@UMRVMB.umr.edu writes:

>I've decided I can't live much longer without a recording of Rigoletto.
>Any recommendations re: recorded performances?

Yes, but you're not going to believe me.  Nobody ever does.  :-(

It's a DG recording made with La Scale forces in 1964.  Rafael Kubelik
conducts it sensationally well -- the best-led Rigoletto on records
(it's nearly uncut -- I think there are 2 little snips).  Fiery,
dramatic, involving, magnificently played.

Most of the cast is Italian, and hard to argue with.  Carlo Bergonzi is
a very elegant duke, Fiorenza Cossotto a strong and sexy Maddalena, Ivo
Vinco an impressive Sparafucile.  This Gilda is one of Renata Scotto's
early outings, and though her voice could have a tinge of harshness on
high even then, it also had sweetness and, more important, bite and
imagination; I get tired of the "pure and pretty" sort of Gilda, and
Scotto is the ideal womanly antidote to that.

So what's the problem?  Rigoletto is Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.  My
friends never believe me when I say how good he is in this.  Yes,
obviously it's not the ideal fat high-Italian-baritone sound.  But it's
colorful, open, alive, never prissy or fussy, dramatically alert and
sincere.  I think this is one of the rare times on records (I can count
them on one hand) when someone with "the wrong kind of voice"
nevertheless scored a genuine and deserved triumph.  Listen for
yourself, and see if you don't agree.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: mozart/handel - messiah
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:33:30 GMT

In article <92325.172728IO21145@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <IO21145@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>I was wondering if anyone has ever seen references to a
>revison of the "Messiah" by W.A. Mozart?

Yes.  What about it?

Roger
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: tonality and modern music
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:15:24 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <JWA.92Nov23022433@vipunen.hut.fi> jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.011139.3275@math.ucla.edu> pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) writes:
>
>>.... or could it be because they can't bloody sing it? Melody is like
>>a tune - you know, hummable. Ever tried humming Stockhausen? Maybe
>>note patterns would be a fairer description. I don't think Karlheinz
>>could write a melody to save his life!
>
>  I can not tell the source, but I've heard that nowadays Stockhausen
>  won't write anything he can't whistle.
>
>  Well, I don't know his abilities as a whistler:-)

Well, the humorous aspect to that is that Stockhausen one wrote a
piece for Cathy Berbarian which involved whistling...but Berbarian
could not perform it because she could not whistle!  (An old John
Cage story intended to point out the differences between himself
and Stockhausen.)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: Rachmaninoff's cello or 2nd?
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:55:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.222353.60974@cc.usu.edu> slj1k@cc.usu.edu writes:
>I'm torn between purshasing a Rachmaninoff CD containing his 2nd Symphony and
>the Vocalise, and one with his cello sonatas with the Volcalise.
>
>Any suggestions (and please don't say both, I'm poor)

Oh, you're far more hip if you go with the cello sonatas.

-chris

P.S.: Seriously, which recordings are these?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( )
Subject: notation of accidentals [?]
Organization: Brandeis University Math Department
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:37:01 GMT

Another matter of historical curiosity...

I've always considered the notation of accidentals
in the presence of a clef signature was unnatural...

The natural notation should be (to me) _relative_
to the accidental at the clef, that is if the note
is # at the clef then # --> x, natural --> # and
b --> natural, if the note is b at the clef then
# --> natural, natural --> flat and b --> bb, and
so on...

Besides being unnatural, the common notation also
makes fast transposition a bit more awkward.

Am I the only one to think so? If not, does anyone
have an explanation as to  why a seemingly unnatural
notation was adopted?

Thanks for any input
Jacob
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bernard Shaw quotes (was: Brahms)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 10:41:56 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

In article <Yf0o_iG00iV1E_5IhC@andrew.cmu.edu>, Aaron Paul Kozbelt <ak3s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>  
> There must be many other memorable quotes about music, composers, etc.
> I'd like to hear others.

According to Fenby, Delius loathed Mozart, but loved Bach and Beethoven.

Delius was a profound admirer of Elgar, as was Elgar of him.

I adore both Delius and Elgar, but until I get a Rosemary Brown to play
my pieces, I'll have no idea what they think of them.

This leads to a corollary thread. What do current composers who
subscribe to r.m.c like in current composition? I like Arnold, Simpson,
Sculthorpe, Sallinen, Lloyd, Part, Schnittke, Lygeti, Xennakis,
Williamson, Dreyfuss, Hovhaness, Rautavaara, Vine (to name but a few).

Anyone else brave enough to nail their colours to the mast?
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Why not a rec.music.contemp group?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 18:06:43 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Francois Velde (velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu) wrote:
:  Am I the only one who has little interest
: in contemporary music (say, post-1945), and who is at wits' end
: to devise an appropriate kill file? Next to /excalibur/j
: and /haikovsk/j, I already have /cage/j, /4'33''/j, /glass/j, /berio/j, 
: etc, but the kill file is getting long and involved, and netters are 
: always coming up with stealth subject lines.

If you do this, you'll miss out on the glorious tonic revival that is
arising, and sweeping music into the c21. And that would be a
loss not only for you, but also for composers who want to write music
for people who don't particularly like things you use a kill file for. 

Music is a vital lving thing, and your opinons (even hostile ones) are
as important here as everywhere. And if you don't say quid Berio, then
you only have yourself to blame for the result.

I know you like Sibelius and Brahms Violin Concertos. Have you heard
Moeran's, Prokoviev's, Hindemith's, Alwyn's Viola Rhapsody, RVW's Lark
Ascending, Bax's Viola Fantasy etc etc etc.? losing +45 might be a
tragedy for you.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: taha@sanantonio.cs.tcu.edu (Iraqi_Godfather)
Subject: is there set of complete Beethoven Quintets ?
Organization: Texas Christian University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:43:42 GMT

Hello World:

I am shopping for all of Beethoven's Quintet's.
Can some one e-mail me details about this?, thanks.

Also, what would be a good way to search for recordings
of works cataloged by Hess ?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Shiekh/ Aras Ezadeen Taha
                             +----------------------------------------- 
Senior; Computer Science     | Q:  Why Computer Professionals may 
Texas Christian University   |       confuse Halloween and Christmas ?! 
Box 31558, TCU,              | A:  Dec 25 = Oct 31  
Fort Worth, Texas 76129, USA +-----------------------------------------
............................. E-MAIL: taha@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu