From: mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:55:09 GMT

In article <1iq1q4INNq31@slab.mtholyoke.edu> jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.172504.25008@wam.umd.edu> mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern) writes:
>>I disagree.  When it came to non-Aryans (Jews, Gypsies, etc),
>>germans of that era were VERY cruel.  There have been plenty of
>>documented evidence (which I will provide sources to, if you wish)
>>of average middle-class Germans turning their longtime Jewish
>>friends into teh Gestapo.  I do not need to tell you what happened
>>to those people.  In my view, that qualifies as utmost cruelty.
>
>Nobody is arguing that... what I'm arguing is that in every single
>one of the dozens of genocides committed in this century by dozens
>of ethnic groups against dozens of other ethnic groups you saw that
>exact same thing, and if you don't believe that, then pack your
>suitcases and go to Sarajevo or India RIGHT NOW, TODAY, and you'll
>see the same thing happening again.

Yes, but not in such mind-blowing numbers as in 30's-40's Germany.


>
>FACE IT, humans have the capacity for utmost cruelty.


I think that's well established.

>
>On the other hand, in all of those situtations you will also find
>people of the same ethnic group as the perpetrators who refuse to
>take part in the orgy or cruelty and stand up for their beliefs.
>They are always a small minority, and they are always treated the
>same way as the oppressed group, but they are always there.  They
>were there in Germany under the Nazis, too, and they were killed
>just the same as the Jews.  In fact, remember that the Nazis came
>for the Commuists first of all, regardless of whether those were
>Jews or Germans.

Yes, but they did not have a 'Final Solution' for all Communists
as they did for all Jews.  They killed the Communists for political
advantage, nothing more nothing less.  They developed a master plan
of systematically exterminating all Jews for no particular political
or monetary advantage.  They destroyed teh Jews for no apparent
reason other than that they were Jews.


>
>>If your grandfather (the SS officer) captured my grandfather
>>(the partisan peasant) during WW-2, he probably would have 
>>tortured and killed him.
>
>No, that's bullshit.  He probably would have followed his orders,
>which were most likely to either shoot on sight, or to arrest and turn
>in for deportation to a concentration camp, but to imply that he would
>have personally indulged in cruelty beyond that is bullshit... you
>just don't know that... some percentage of humans will, given the
>chance and the environment, indulge in such cruelty, and some will
>not.  This has nothing to do with whether they are German or any of
>any other ethnic group.  I repeat again... HUMANS are capable of 
>utmost cruelty... to believe that one ethnic group is more capable
>of cruelty than another is plain racism and is at the heart of the
>problem.

What I wroteorte  above is not at all bullshit.  it happened more often
than not in the days of my grandfather.  He lost many a comrade to
sadistic German troops who took great pleasures in torturing a 
Jewish partisan to death.  But, with a name like 'Jurgen', i do not 
expect YOU to understand.


>
>To say that "Germans are more capable of cruelty than other people"
>is as bad as saying "all Jews are coniving, thieving opportunists."

Oh, you are as sharp as a matzah ball!

>
>Is that so hard to understand?

Dear Jurgen, the Nazis have enough apologists in the US.  Historical
revisionist is rampant in academia, including that most respected
seat of learning, Mt. Holyoke.  What revisionists cannot erase, however,
are the memories of those like my grandfather, who were there and 
lived through the horrors of the Nazi genocide. Facing up to their
ugly past is the only way the Germans of today will be able to
learn to deal with it, and rid themselves of any further Nazi
inclinations.  

>-- 
>Jurgen Botz, jbotz@mtholyoke.edu
>Northampton, MA, USA

Michael Stern	wam.umd.edu	UMCP....USDA


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