From: masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda)
Subject: Re: Not a Myth at All
Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:27:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.155827.1075@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <C0G98r.5I1@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:

>>   For example, if a shopowner deals with an American customers who have a
>>command of Japanese and not with those who cannot communicate in Japanese,
>>that discrimination is not based on race. I used the TOEFL example 
>>because I saw the analogy with this type of situation.

>Again, how is it analagous?

   In both cases, people with the better communication skill are offered
more opportunities and service.

>>>   Does this make it OK for those who suffered to punish all people of
>>>a different race from themselves?

>>   It is nothing related to race. The enemy could have been Asian, Indian,
>>Caucasian, African, whatever. Historically, there should have been similar
>>partizan activities between Japanese, too.

>Also, B H Chamberlain makes reference to "No Foreigners" signs in his book,
>written in 1904. Britain and Japan were allies at the time.

   I thought we were talking about the "No Foreigners" sings posted shortly
AFTER WWII that YOU mentioned, Fester-san.
  
>>  Let's imagine most Japanese stores rejected American customers. Those 
>>stroes should have had a bad reputation in the occupation army. One 
>>possible consequence is that many GIs frequent other small number of
>>stores where they are welcome. In those days, it was most likely that
>>dealing with Americans were highly beneficial at least economically. 

>However, the signs forbidding foreigners went up almost immediately. Sure
>looks racist.

   I don't get why "almost immediately" makes it more racist than, say,
"after 6 months."

>>  If the discrimination is based on language differences and an
>>appropriate language skill lets them avoid discrimination, calling it
>>as racism would not be appropriate. 

>Yet that's how you labelled the TOEFL.

   ??? 

>>  As far as I know, in Florida where there are an increasing number of
>>Spanish-speaking immigrants, they decided to make English as _the official_
>>language. This could justify any disadvantage that people suffer based on
>>a language difference. If this can be called as a racist regulation,
>>there should be some action taken to abolish it.

>News flash: English IS the official language of all the United States. Has 
>been since its inception.

   Are you sure about this? The newspaper article which I read said that
in Maryland where I live, there was a movement to make English _the official_
language. In the same article, it was said that only in Florida and Hawaii,
there is a legislation to define English as _the official_ language.
In Maryland, we can still take a written exam for driver's license in 
Spanish and Korean as well as English. (Is it ture that they have even a
Japanese exam in N.J.?)

   Oh well, my memory could be worng. If that is the case, I apologize for
my misinformation. I'd appreciate it if you could let me know how
English is defined as the official language in the US.

>Hmm. So those naturalized Japanese citizens of non-Asian background are not
>victims of racism at all, but of nationalism (even if they are Japanese.)

   It is true that a long history of racial homogeneity (except for several
minority population such as Ainu) in Japan makes Japanese stereotypically
think that non-Japanese-looking person is non-Japanese. Personally, I don't
know any non-Asian naturalized Japanese citizens around me, and I can
do nothing better than imagining some scenarioes where they are 
_vicitimized_. I'd be happy to know the actual incidents and discuss how
we should solve those problems. 

>>P.S. Al, why don't we do some experiments in Tokyo? If you could find some
>>"gaijin okotowari" bars, what about going there together to see how they
>>react?

>Not at all hard to find.

   Uh, I'm thinking of going out for a drink with Al, not you, Fester.
So, it doesn't matter a lot whether you can find a place or not. If Al
invites you, that's another story.

--Michiaki
From: arnet@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Arne Thormodsen)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:30:13 GMT
Subject: Re: on extraterritoriality
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino