HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sagnella@a.chem.upenn.edu (Diane E. Sagnella)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Date: 3 Jan 93 17:40:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.103563
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Dec22.200751.19529@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>In article <102976@netnews.upenn.edu> sagnella@a.chem.upenn.edu (Diane E. Sagnella) writes:
>}In article <1992Dec22.134618.4405@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>}>How great do you expect someone to get, who jogs to McDonalds?
>}
>}When you start judging someone by their speed, you take away from 
>
>Wait one.  _I_ didn't mention speed...

When you comment on how 'great' someone is, you are considering their speed.
One does not have to mention something explicitly to be talking about it.

>
>}them the one thing that is so very special about running.  With 
>}running you do it for YOU.  You are your primary contender.  You set your
>}goals, you decide when to run fast and when to run slow.
>
>His goal is clear: McDonalds!

for something to drink...

>
>}How dare anyone put someone down because they think they
>}don't run fast enough!  We as runners should support other
>}runners in their endeavors not ridicule them because they
>}don't live up to our standards!
>
>How dare you try to "shout down" someone because of what YOU think, and not what 
>THEY do.  You harp on things (speed, fast enough...,) that I never even mentioned.

  Hey you gave your opinion, why is it such a big deal that I gave mine
in rebuttal?  Because I was adamant?  I was not yelling at your voicing
your opinion but in what you said (and others like you).
It appears, however, that you feel that one can voice their ideas, 
but only if it's done quietly.  That's ridiculous.

My response was not soley to you but for all to read.  I was angered not because
people consider him `mediocre', but by the maliciousness of the tones that 
were used.  For example...

Mediocre, itself while meaning average, has a worse connotation than simply
average.

I have no objection to one giving his opinion but I think it's
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Subject: Re: New Runner? Questions; FAQ?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:49:43 GMT
Keywords: New Runner, Questions, FAQ

vannevar@panix.com (Vannevar Yu) writes:
>
>4.  Is there a difference between using the gym's treadmill and running on
>    concrete?  Which would you recommend?  (I live in NYC, and do not wish
>    to train on the streets due to the traffic lights, crime, pollution,
>    and killer taxi cab drivers.)  Is treadmill running easier or harder
>    than 'actual' running?

Having just bought one of these beasts (Image 935), I've been looking into
this question. According to a book I found, treadmill running requires
about the same amount of energy as regular running. The major difference
is that on the treadmill, you don't have any air resistance, so treadmill
running will require a little less energy, but not much. Running on a 
flat treadmill will be like running slightly downhill. Give it a 1-2%
incline and it will be equivalent to regular running on the flat.

An advantage of treadmill running (besides convenience and weather-issues)
is that you can run "uphill" indefinitely without any downhill running.
Also, the current state of your training is spelled out with inescapable
scientific precision, especially if you use a pulse monitor.

There's an article on treadmills in last month's Runner's World.

---
Joe Knapp   jmk@cbvox.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: dvfreese@freese.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Doug Freese)
Subject: Re: Knee cartilage and running
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 21:12:32 GMT
Organization: IBM Corp. Kingston NY
Keywords: cartilage removal, knee, run  

In article <1992Dec17.151033.20482@sparky.imd.sterling.com> jbv@IMD.Sterling.COM (James B Vacanti) writes:
>Does anyone out there have experience with running after having cartilage
>removed from one's knee?  I tore some cartilage (medial meniscus) this 
>summer and had it removed in Oct. The Dr. said he only removed as little
>as possible to relieve the pain, and leave as much as possible for the
>cushening that the cartilage was supposed to provide. Even so, he suggested
>that I not run (so did the PTt because it could still cause arthritis .
>They told me that before arthroscopy that they used to remove ALL of the
>cartilage and that you would definately get arthritis. 
>I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has been thru this.
>                                 Thanks,
>-- 
>Jim Vacanti   Grew up on IBM :-) mainframes, now I must learn UNIX(tm) :-(   
>Sterling Software IMD    /*=============================================*/
>uunet!sparky!jbv         /* "If you're not part of the solution, then   */
>jbv@IMD.Sterling.COM     /*     you're part of the problem."   (??)     */



Jim,
I have a friend who just had the same operation. In his case they
took out small piece and the Dr. told him he could resume running 
after the swelling subsided.  He started back about two weeks later.
Remember our dear Joanie won the olympic gold, mere days 
after her surgery. 

I guess a lot would depend on how much cartilage they removed.
If you have one of those ultra conservative, non-athletic Drs.  
who think walking to the bathroom is excessive, try a second opinion.
If your interested I can hook you up and you can swap tails.
 
Now I'm a rookie to rn and if I can get this note off my PS/2
an on the net I'll be pleased. I'm an old VM bigot trying make the 
transition to UNIX(like running Boston with stones in your Keds).  
(no flames on the UNIX crack -) )
                     Doug Freese
-- 
--------The race is not to the swift but to those who keep on running -----
Doug Freese                 (The views expressed here are entirely mine)     
I.B.M. Corp.                email: dvfreese@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com 
Neighborhood Rd. Kingston N.Y. 12401
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 02:27:17 GMT

spit@austin.ibm.com (John F. Spitzer) writes:
>> 	   In a Nov. 27 news article, you characterize President-elect
>> 	Clinton's race time of 24:16 in a five-kilometer run as "fair
>> 	at best" and a "mediocre jog."
>This mild ridicule does seem unwarranted, but I'm curious to see the original
>article.  Does anyone have the original and can either transcribe or at least
>communicate the context of the article?
>
>I wonder what the original author's 5K time is -- if he/she could run that far!

I don't have the article, but I'd wager that the reporter asked a runner
at the race if the time was any good. And let's face it, runners often
think anyone who runs faster than them is a god and anyone who runs slower
than them is a turkey -- when in the big picture, someone who can string
three eight-minute miles together is definitely ahead of the game!

---
Joe Knapp   jmk@cbvox.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: dvfreese@freese.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Doug Freese)
Subject: Re: Eating on long runs
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 21:39:58 GMT
Organization: IBM Corp. Kingston NY

In article <1992Dec22.163354.15868@unocal.com> stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>
>In article <BzMBMy.2Hyr@austin.ibm.com> spit@austin.ibm.com (John F. Spitzer) writes:
>>
>>Thanks to everyone who replied for all the advice!
>>
>>I ran 24 miles on Saturday and didn't even come close to bonking!
>>I carbo-loaded the night before:  tortillas, beans, rice, and bananas.
>>The morning of the run, I drank a generous glass of juice and hit
>>the trail.  During my run, I only drank water.  I wasn't even that
>>hungry after the run!
>>
>>Now another question...  I'm following Galloway's marathon schedule
>>for a 3:30 marathon (hey, it's my first!)  He doesn't give any in-
>>dication of what pace to set on the long slow runs.  My goal pace
>>is 8 minutes/mile, and I was running between 9 and 10 minutes/mile
>>on my long run.  Is that okay?  My speed training's going fine, but
>>I'm still worried about overdoing it on race day and bonking at the
>>20 mile mark :^(  What are y'all's experiences with putting the 
>>speed and distance training together on race day?
>
>Yes, an important thing to learn in marathon running is running with
>lots of other people.  A trendency is to get excited and do the first
>couple hours faster than you may have trained for.  Then one may bonk
>into the third or fourth hour.   Pace yourself to 9 minute miles your
>first marathon then.  If you do OK, then try faster in future marathons.

I have a great appreciation for Galloway and his training until 
you get to his track work outs.  I realize that marathon training 
is controversial at best but track workouts that lead you to 
11 times a mile are every agressive by most standards and for 
a first - it's injury prone.  Galloway has softened his views on 
intervals most particularly for longer rest and total miles. 
Good luck.

-- 
--------The race is not to the swift but to those who keep on running -----
Doug Freese                 (The views expressed here are entirely mine)     
I.B.M. Corp.                email: dvfreese@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com 
Neighborhood Rd. Kingston N.Y. 12401 
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:30:17 GMT

terry@jgaltstl.UUCP (terry linhardt) writes:

>Give me a break. I'm glad the President-elect is a runner. But his
>times are definitely mid-pack. That makes him a mediocre runner.

I'd like to second what Terry said. Sometimes we forget how to speak English.
'Mediocre' means 'average' 8-)

just one more mile,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov     
Madison,AL (205)461-4922  
i need to ask myself.....
***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: gcm@world.std.com (Gretchen C Macdowall)
Subject: Re: Fun with a truck
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:32:53 GMT

tarmstro@metz.une.edu.au (tarmstro) writes:

>Merry Xmas to all on the net. Now that raises an interesting question.
>Do the runners on the net have the day off and eat, or do they still get
>out the door. I have managed to run every Xmas day (once even a track session?).We have a traditional Xmas run with brunch after. We go about the streets
   
It's the best day of the year to run. For one day, here in the northeast
US,  people cast off that famous New England reserve. Many runners wear
antlers and silly Christmas hats and everyone wishes everyone else a Merry
Christmas when they pass. 
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: kpapai@rahul.net (Ken Papai)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Organization: Runners Everywhere, Sunnyvale, a2i network
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:15:55 GMT

OK.  Let's classify.  I'll start with male runners.  Someone can
help out on the female classification.

Based on your two best 10K times, rate yourself as the following:
(I better put an age limit too, males aged 21 to 45)

Time range in minutes       Classification
---------------------       -----------------
55 - 60                     Beginner, end of pack, can improve a lot
50 - 54                     Enthususiast, still a beginner, back of pack,
                            can still improve a lot, almost mediocre
47 - 49                     A good runner, better than mediocre, has
                            dedicated at least a year to get this far
                            A 48 minute 10K guy defines Mid Pack.
                            You should be able to do 5K in 22:30.
44 - 46                     You are one of the top 20% of runners,
                            you are competitive and are striving for improvemnt
41 - 43                     An excellent runner, dedicated, hard-working,
                            capable of sub-six miles, have run marathon(s)
                            you are very much a competitor. Can run
                            5K races in 19:40.
37 - 40                     Almost god,
34 - 36                     You are god
30 - 33                     You were god, and think you are one of the best
28 - 29                     You are a running complete god, extremely
                            genetically gifted, elite
27                          World Class Super Elite

 
-- 
Ken Papai <kpapai@rahul.net>
From: terry@jgaltstl.UUCP (terry linhardt)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:31:29 GMT
Organization: The Lafayette Group, St. Louis, MO.

In article <102976@netnews.upenn.edu>, sagnella@a.chem.upenn.edu (Diane E. Sagnella) writes:
+ 
+ 
+ Give the guy a break!  ANYONE that exercises, that goes out and
+ 'just does it' is okay by me!  Clinton never professed to be
+ a spectacular runner, why must you label him?
+ 
+ When you start judging someone by their speed, you take away from 
+ them the one thing that is so very special about running.  With 
+ running you do it for YOU.  You are your primary contender.  You set your
+ goals, you decide when to run fast and when to run slow.
+ 
+ How dare anyone put someone down because they think they
+ don't run fast enough!  We as runners should support other
+ runners in their endeavors not ridicule them because they
+ don't live up to our standards!

Since when is calling Clinton a mediocre runner a put-down? It's a
fair observation, based upon his reported times. Do you want us to
say that he is 'non-elite'? Is that more politically correct?

Fact is, most of us would call ourselves mediocre runners, since by
definition most of us are somewhere in the pack when we run. We all
run for various reasons. But, Clinton is still a mediocre runner.
-- 
  Terry Linhardt                ...!wupost!jgaltstl!terry 
                                terry%jgaltstl.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu
From: jm0i@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSEPH ALOYSIUS MCVEIGH)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:24:04 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp) writes:
>This letter appeared in the New York Times a little while ago:
>       ["He's a respectable runner" deleted]
>       ............To paraphrase Vice President Quayle, "if Bill
>       Clinton can govern as well as he jogs, we'll be all right."
>
>       Edwin A. Salsitz
>       New York, Nov. 30, 1992

Other reactions:

George Bush: "Better jogger than that governor there. More prudent."
Ronald McDonald: "If he can govern as well as he eats, we'll rule."
Gennifer Flowers: "If he can govern as well as he -" uh, never mind.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Aloysius McVeigh | "No one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd
   jm0i@.Lehigh.edu     |  only had good intentions. He has money as well."
       "N.I.N.A."       |                               - Margaret Thatcher
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.running
From: spit@austin.ibm.com (John F. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Originator: spit@hookipa.austin.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:46:50 GMT
Organization: IBM Austin


In article <1992Dec21.175447.20289@cbnews.cb.att.com>, jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp) writes:
> 	   In a Nov. 27 news article, you characterize President-elect
> 	Clinton's race time of 24:16 in a five-kilometer run as "fair
> 	at best" and a "mediocre jog."

This mild ridicule does seem unwarranted, but I'm curious to see the original
article.  Does anyone have the original and can either transcribe or at least
communicate the context of the article?

I wonder what the original author's 5K time is -- if he/she could run that far!
-- 
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* Views expressed herein are entirely my own; any resemblance between *
* these views and those of my employer is purely coincidental.        *
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
From: roat@rrc.chevron.com (Suzanne Roat,Chevron,(510)242-5313)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Presidential running shoes (was Re: Cli
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:29:13 GMT
Reply-To: roat@rrc.chevron.com
Organization: Chevron, Richmond, California

In article 9144@tessi.com, allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>A.M.T.Bell@daresbury.ac.uk (A.M.T. Bell) writes:
>
>>Trivia time: from the newspaper photo it looks like he wears ASICS.
>>                                                             ------
>
>>Do the american voters know this, the american president running in japanese shoes,
>>tut tut bill. If Bush had known this earlier he could have won :-) :-)
>>What shoes does Bush wear?

Saucony's of course (actually I have no idea)!!  

>
>Who cares?  Besides, what athletic shoe is manufactured domestically anymore
>anyway?  =)  =)

Saucony's of course (Bangor, Maine)!!

>
>allen



---
Suzanne Roat				Phone:	(510) 242-5313 Voice 
Chevron Research and Technology Company		(510) 242-4647 FAX
100 Chevron Way				Email:	roat@rrc.chevron.com
Richmond, CA  94802-0627

Xref: sparky rec.running:3709 misc.fitness:9105
From: gilsonm@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: rec.running,misc.fitness
Subject: Re: Orthotic info requested
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:51:00 EST

In article <1gsnfbINN7vb@life.ai.mit.edu>, gillett@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Walter E. Gillett) writes:
> Hi, Folks
>     I've got pretty severe pronation and have had various podiatrists and
> orthopedists recommend that I get a pair of orthotics.  However, I've never
> been one to drop about $350 without trying to learn something about what I'm
> buying so I've been procrastinating while perusing the local libraries in search
> of some info.  So far I've met with zero success so I've decided to appeal to
> the net.deities out there.
> 
	Shop around for another podiatrist.  My podiatrist said he makes his
	money on surgery, not orthotics.  He charges his cost + visit cost
	for the orthotics - $190.  They're made by the same lab that made
	a pair for a friend for $320 (different podiatrist...).


Newsgroups: rec.running
From: bobk@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Bob)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 08:08:19 GMT

||  ...I'm not impressed with anyone who jogs to McDonalds to
||  pork out on Curly Fries.  He's trying to have it both ways...

jcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (john.c.schwebel) writes:
| Ever seen any proof that a "healthy diet" improves your running
| performance?

  Yes.  Of course.  I thought this was pretty much accepted by most
  everyone who knows anything about fitness and athletics.  I've
  seen a lot of people who have improved their running performances
  dramatically by improving their diets.  This is not to say that
  all good runners have good diets.  There are a few exceptions, but
  in general, most coaches, trainers and nutritionists, as well as 
  most people who read this newsgroup regularly, would advocate a
  "healthy" diet to improve performance.

  I think this is another case where infatuation with a political
  figure has clouded the thinking process.

| I've known plenty of very good runners who were junk food addicts.
| I could say "I'm not impressed by the runners who run the 10
| mile run every Sunday Morning and then pork out on fatty donuts",
| but that's not true, they do it and I am impressed by their
| racing performance.

  I know a lot of good runners who have lousy diets too.  (But then,
  I know a smoker who does 10K's in the low 30's.)  These are mostly
  younger people who have run competetively since their teens.  Some of
  them might improve if they switched to a better diet; some of them
  have metabolisms that can handle it.  These are exceptions -- very
  few people have that kind of metabolism. 

  For a fat forty-something though, I would say that a healthy diet that
  went easy on the Cheesebugers and Curly Fries would probably improve
  running performance and all-around health.
  ==

  Bob                                       Seattle, Washington

Newsgroups: rec.running
From: jcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (john.c.schwebel)
Subject: Re: Clinton mediocre runner?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 05:59:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.072746.4459@gibdo.engr.washington.edu> bobk@gibdo.engr.washington.edu (Bob) writes:
>||  ...I'm not impressed with anyone who jogs to McDonalds to
>||  pork out on Curly Fries.  He's trying to have it both ways...
>
>jcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (john.c.schwebel) writes:
>| Ever seen any proof that a "healthy diet" improves your running
>| performance?
>
>  Yes.  Of course.  I thought this was pretty much accepted by most
>  everyone who knows anything about fitness and athletics.  I've
>  seen a lot of people who have improved their running performances
>  dramatically by improving their diets.  This is not to say that
>  all good runners have good diets.  There are a few exceptions, but
>  in general, most coaches, trainers and nutritionists, as well as 
>  most people who read this newsgroup regularly, would advocate a
>  "healthy" diet to improve performance.
>

The thing that bothered me about the original posting was the
implicit assumptions and self-rightous implications.

My question asked for "proof" that a "healthy" diet improves
running performance.
The answer above said it was "accepted" and "most people" advocate it.
I'm still waiting to see the proof.

I would say most claims for dietary effects on running performacne
are theories rather than proven facts.
And plenty of theories about diet have been subsequently disproved.

In addition, the current theories usually relate to the relative
percentages of carbohydrates, protein, and fat in the diet.
Even accepting these theories, a person could eat french fries
and still have an acceptable diet.
No need to abstain from all fats, a certain percent is required.

Please note, I'm not questioning the value of a good diet
in improving health, just in improving running,
all other things being equal.
Obviously if you eat enough to gain weight you'll get a deleterious
effect on  your running after some point.

I have followed a supposingly healthier diet for more than 2 years,
mainly trying to lower cholesterol and control weight:
no desserts, no red-meat, very little white meat,
very low fat, low salt, low caffeine, no alcohol.
It hasn't improved my race times and I can't prove it
improves my health, but I believe it does.

>  I think this is another case where infatuation with a political
>  figure has clouded the thinking process.

This is another assumption on your part.
My response was independent of the fact that the post was
referring to Clinton, and I wouldn't say I'm infatuated with Clinton.
But I do give credit to anyone who gets out and does some
physical exercise.
Newsgroups: rec.running
Newsgroups: rec.running

What has helped my mildly injured hamstring was to keep it warm while
running.  I've been wearing a pair of spandex pants under my regular 
running shorts during the fall/winter months.  Here in California it doesn't
get that cold but the wind chill factor can lead to some tight muscles.
For me stretching didn't help at all and just aggravated the condition, but
then again I was never one for stretching.  I just start out very slowly
for the first 3 minutes.

Les
lbrodie@cdc.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.running