HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 21 Nov 1992 01:59:22 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


   Jonathan Pollard is a man who is condemned to prison, for the
rest of his life.  He was condemned to this fate for passing off
intelligence information to Israel.  It has been noted that this
data involved the increased efforts by Iraq to increase chemical
and biological warfare capabilities.  Much of the buildup in the
areas of Israeli civil defense was due to information which came
from Jonathan Pollard.  Our government's reaction to Pollard was
not only swift, but stunningly cruel.  And the sentence that was
handed down for his espionage was beyond previous sentencing for
similar crimes.  Israel is an ally of the United States.  It has
always been an ally.  In spite of the hysterical reaction on the
part of Mr. Casper Weinberger, Pollard NEVER committed the crime
of treason.  This dispicable crime is the act of selling secrets
to the enemy.  It is a crime that is considered so grave that an
individual can be put to death for it.  It is the crime that was
committed for years by the Walker family.  The Walker family was
engaged in the selling of defense secrets to the USSR for eleven
years.  The nature of what they sold to the Russians was of such
a comprimising nature that defense experts stated we wouldn't be
able to undo the damage for years.
   Jonathan Pollard provided information which the United States
had promised to provide Israel anyway.  What he gave to our ally
in the mideast was information necessary for Israel to provide a
measure of security for itself.  In no way did Pollard engage in
any sort of activity against our country.  And yet he received a
sentence equal to that of those who have committed treason.
   Jonathan Pollard is a criminal.  He engaged in espionage, and
was convicted of this crime.  And though, as a Jew, I am glad he
did it, he must be recognized as a criminal.  As it is noted, if
you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But the time must be
somewhat proportional to the crime.  The wrath of Weinberger was
enough to bring the weight of the federal geovernment down on an
individual who would never knowingly harm his country.  His fate
was the same as that of a genuine traitor's.
   I am at a loss to come up with what can be done at this point
in time.  But I do know that Jonathan Pollard must never be left
to rot away in prison, as if he was an American back-stabber, as
if he was a traitor like the Walker family.  We must continue to
seek a solution to this miscarraige of justice.
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 23:21:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.171803.14775@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
|> 
|> So now you became a furtune teller. Can you please tell me when I am going to win
|> the lottery?

After I win it.

|> 
|> The only reason Israel invaded PLO lend (now Lebanon) in 82 was the PLO forces 
|> there and the terrorists attacks they launched against Israel. As for the Arabs
|> being smarter to avoid conflicts, I hope this will continue so we will finally
|> have peace in the area.

Keep on wishing. Peace is only possible once Israel honors all outstanding UN
resolutions and stops its Zionist and expansionist policy.

A.Faris
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 1992 04:36:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu




Article 125577 of talk.politics.mideast:
From: dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 1992 00:36:08 GMT
Organization: University of California Berkeley

Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.berkeley.edu

In article <1ek55qINN6du@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
|> 
|>    Jonathan Pollard is a man who is condemned to prison, for the
|> rest of his life. 

>He sold top secret information about the security
>of this nation.  What was to be done with the information is 
>irrelevant.  Who he sold it to is irrelevant. He compromised the
>security of his country, therefore he is a traitor
>As far as i am concerned, he is lucky he was
>not executed.

dtg

   Your ingorance of the law is somewhat scary.  Perhaps you can
ask yourself if you have the same sort of rage towards those who
actually committed treason, like the Walker family.  
   Espionage is NOT treason.  They are different crimes, and one
is vastly more serious than the other.  Treason is when a person
aids the ENEMY.  The Walker bunch sold secrets to the KGB for an
alarming number of years.  They knowingly betrayed this country.
The crime with which Pollard was charged was espionage.  Treason
is a much more serious crime.  Regardless of one's biases, one's 
dislike for a country does not make it an enemy.  
   Your moral outrage seems to be a bit out of proportion to the
crime committed, and the actual harm done.  I wonder why...

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:15:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.205756.27098@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.235034.28376@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>|> 
>|> Fist, Israel didn't annex the West Bank. Second, the Golan and the West Bank were
>|> lost by the Arabs in a war they started in 1967. 
>|> 
>
>Thanks for the response I was wondering what had really taking place 25 years
>ago. If Israel had not annexed the West Bank, why did Jerusalem become its
>Capital?. You also forgot to state that it was a war Israel was praying to
>happen.

Jerusalem and the West Bank are not the same thing to Israel.  Jerusalem
had been its capital since before the war, but only the Western parts
were part of Israel then.  Finally, Naftaly didn't state that it was a
war Israel was praying to happen, because Israel was patently *not*
praying that the war would happen.  Indeed, Israel didn't start the
war.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:13:09 GMT


In article <1ep9n3INNsdi@agate.berkeley.edu>, dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) writes:
>In article <By4urF.1vn@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>|> 
>|> There is a difference between working against the U.S. for the benefit of
>|> Israel and protecting Israel by passing information which is crucial to her
>|> and not hurtful to the U.S.  Pollard felt that this information, which related
>|> to Iraq's chemical weapon program, was crucial to Israel - he simply acted his
>|> consciounse as both a good American and a good Jew.
>|> 
>|> Ed.
>
>The decision was not his to make.  If his conscience is clear because
>he felt he did the right thing, this does nothing to change the fact
>that he commited treason and compromised the security of the United 
>States.  As to his punishment: in sensible countries, traitors
>are executed.

There are some sensible countries in which they cut off hands to thieves and exexute
people who commit adultery. If this is sensible, I am very happy that the US is
not one.

>
>dan


Naftaly


----
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:30:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>In article <BxvzMy.FJ6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>> Jerusalem was annexed but the rest of the West Bank wasn't.  

>This is not quite accurate.  In 1968 Israel annexed East Jerusalem
>together with a significant portion of the surrounding West Bank,
>reaching almost to Bethlehem in the south and to Ramallah in the north.
>The Israelis insist on referring to this whole area now as "Jerusalem"
>so that they can continue to make their argument about "not dividing the
>city".  The great majority of the annexed area was never part of any
>Jerusalem municipality, either in Israel itself, or during Jordanian
>rule, or at any other time.
 
 Even this is nothing near what Mr. Faris claims (that Israel annexed the whole
 West Bank).

>As if this were not enough, even the Rabin government now claims very
>substantial *additional* portions of the West Bank that surround what
>has already been annexed.  They continue to settle Jews there in large
>numbers, and insist that they will never withdraw from those areas
>either.
>--
>Yigal Arens
>USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
>arens@isi.edu
Ed.
From: v053qhyx@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Jeremy A Berger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:01:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <By4urF.1vn@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes...
>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> 
>>In article 1elri7INN896@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
> 
>>>   Jonathan Pollard is a criminal.  He engaged in espionage, and
>>>was convicted of this crime.  And though, as a Jew, I am glad he
>>>did it, 

me too..
> 
>>I will save this for the next time you flame someone for suggesting
>>that American Jews have dual allegiance.
> 
>There is a difference between working against the U.S. for the benefit of
>Israel and protecting Israel by passing information which is crucial to her
>and not hurtful to the U.S.  Pollard felt that this information, which related
>to Iraq's chemical weapon program, was crucial to Israel - he simply acted his
>consciounse as both a good American and a 

one thing that must be realized is that pollard was giving information to
Israel that was promised to Israel by the U.S..  Pollard wasbeing
"politically correct" in his mind.  He was honoring a promise made by the
united states to Israel.  A promise which later turned out to be a Lie
to Israel from the United States


>>>         he must be recognized as a criminal.  As it is noted, if
>>>you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But the time must be
>>>somewhat proportional to the crime.  
> 
>>I agree, and from what I've heard his penalty was harsher than other
>>people received for similar things.  That is not acceptable, but it's
>>a problem not limited to politically sensitive matters, nor to the US.
> 
>Pollard is serving a life sentence in solitary confinement in Marion, Illinois,
>the toughest federal prison in the U.S.  One of his jail mates happens to be
>John Gotti, the famous Mafia boss who was convicted of murder - is this 
>Pollard's equivalent?  Other spies for allied countries got minimal sentences -
>is this what you call fairness?
> 
>>>                                     The wrath of Weinberger was
>>>enough to bring the weight of the federal geovernment down on an
>>>individual who would never knowingly harm his country.  
> 
>>What evidence is there that the sentence was not determined by the
>>court but by the government?  None, I bet.
> 
>Actually, Wolf Blitzer who wrote the book "Territory of Lies" documented
>a secret memo by Weinberger which was key in the court's sentencing
>decision.
> 
>>>His fate was the same as that of a genuine traitor's.
> 
>>Lots of traitors believe they are acting in the best interests of
>>their own country.  Even if Pollard believed that (which is not
>>clear to me) he is still a traitor.
> 
>Fine, if he is a traitor then let him suffer the same punishment as other
>traitors of his caliber. 
> 
>>Brendan.
> 
>Ed.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:45:27 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Nov13.012943.2921@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
>In article <1992Nov12.102318.90576@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>, zmood@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
>
>|> >
>|> Let us assume that what Israelis call the " Security Zone " is just that. Then
>|> it would follow that withdrawal would only follow when security was ensured.
>|> Hence considering the present situation, the above does not seem imminent even
>|> with withdrawal the prefered option. The question then is, " Whether Israel
>|> should withdraw regardless of the present situation "? Under article 51 of the
>|> U.N. charter....... Until Lebanon, can assure Israel that its citizens will not
>|> commit hostile acts against Israel, what option does Israel have ?
>|>
>|> Daniel Zmood
>
>Israel is in South Lebanon to secure the waters from South Lebanon and divert
>it into Israel. Israel took the Golan Heights from Syria in the name of security
>again only to secure the waters of the Jordan river. As long as they stay there
>they wil have hostility from the Lebanese who are defending the occupation of
>their land by Israel.
>
>Syria and Lebanon were planning to built a dam on certain tributaries to the
>Jordan river in 1964. Israel could not afford that to happen, and in the name
                 ^^^^

Just a small point, but Israel did not take the Golan until towards
the end of the Six-Day War in 1967.  (BTW why do non-Jews insist on
calling it just the '1967 War'?  Is it because they are afraid to
admit to the fact that Israel won so convincingly in such a short
time?)  Israel would not have scaled the Heights had it not been for
the fact that Syria joined in the war and Israel had no choice but to
open a third front (after (a) Egypt & (b) Jordan) which happenned to
mean that Israel took control of the Golan.  Nobody in Israel was too
upset at Israel's taking control as the Heights command the Gallilee
(go up and take a look) and the Syrians had been shelling the
residents of the Gallilee continuously from 1948 until 1967 when
Israel at last wrested control from Syria.

>of security invaded Syria and took the Golan Heights. Every one fell for that
>scheme the same way they have fallen for it in South Lebanon.
>
>A.Faris


--
Be'ahavat chinam (with causeless love)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg             |     ^
Bitnet:                      |  \-/-\-/  "He's not the messaiah.  He's a
rothberg@bimacs              |   X   X    very naughty boy."
Internet:                    |  /-\-/-\                        - Brian's Mum
rothberg@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il |     V
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Kahan Commission
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:12:52 GMT

In article <1e74s0INNhdn@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# Sharon only had to establish that Time could not prove what they 
# claimed about him.  As to what was actually proven in court, the 
# important evidence was heard in secret so how do you know what it was?

	It seems Brendan knows as little about the American legal system
as he does about the Middle East.  If evidence in a civil case like
this (in front of a jury) needed to be kept secret in would not have
been heard at all.  And if Time actually needed the evidence, the
judge would have directed a verdict in favor of Time.

	One should note the results of this trial in Israel by the way.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:32:19 GMT
Reply-To: jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich)
Organization: Teradata Corp., El Segundo, CA

In article <1dgq2lINN2r6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>...
>Did Sharon order this massacre to take place?

TIME's correspondant was told by his (anonymous) source a question about
"revenge" (for the slaying of Bashir(?) Gemeyal) was raised by militiaman
at the pre-assault meeting and that Sharon deliberately shrugged his shoulders.
TIME supenoed two IDF officers present at the meeting and notes taken there
but Israel refused to allow them to leave the country.

>Did Sharon know that it was going to take place?
>Could Sharon have anticipated a vicious attack such as this would happen?

The alliance with the Phalange had been in effect for some time, and the
Phalange had adledgedly commited other atrocities.  For this reason, and
because the Phalange ideology reminded some of Nazism, the alliance was
heavily criticized in the Israeli press to the extent that the story was
picked up by TIME some months earlier.

>Did the attack involve even one single Israeli?

While no Israeli entered the camps, they provided security and illumination
and I beleive the bulldozer used to bury the dead.  They were also in
visual and radio contact at times.

>Since there were no Israelis in the two camps,
>did Sharon know what was actually occuring in the camps at
>the time the attacks were happening?

I don't recall when Sharon was informed, but troops on the site were soon
aware, General Eitan (?) was informed, and a member of Begin`s cabinent was
informed by telephone while the massacre was in progress.

>...

Jon.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:56:25 GMT

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>In article <4457@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
>|> 
>|> Just a small point, but Israel did not take the Golan until towards
>|> the end of the Six-Day War in 1967.  (BTW why do non-Jews insist on
>|> calling it just the '1967 War'?  Is it because they are afraid to
>|> admit to the fact that Israel won so convincingly in such a short
>|> time?)  Israel would not have scaled the Heights had it not been for
>|> the fact that Syria joined in the war and Israel had no choice but to
>|> open a third front (after (a) Egypt & (b) Jordan) which happenned to
>|> mean that Israel took control of the Golan.  Nobody in Israel was too
>|> upset at Israel's taking control as the Heights command the Gallilee
>|> (go up and take a look) and the Syrians had been shelling the
>|> residents of the Gallilee continuously from 1948 until 1967 when
>|> Israel at last wrested control from Syria.
>> rothberg@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il |     V
>|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>So Israel is the strongest country in the M.E. and every one is at its mercy.
>It took the Golan heights in six days because it wanted it so bad. Where does
>one go from here?.

No, it took it in six days because the Arabs were so inept. Just because the
Arabs weren't fabulous warriors in 1967 doesn't mean that they didn't have
a strategic and quantitative advantage (though not qualitative) over Israel.


>A.Faris

Ed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:52:16 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

#It is only until they receive proper training in the Mossad where
#they learn the proper etiquettes of piercing the throats of their
#victims and sucking in the most efficient and effective way, so
#as not to leave a trace of blood behind.

Well, this seems to be characteristic to the region:

  "...he butchered three of them with an ax and decapitated them. In
   other words, instead of using a gun to kill them he took a hatchet
   to chop their heads off. He struggeled face to face with one of them,
   and throwing down his ax managed to break his neck and devour his
   flesh in front of his comarades. This is a special case. Need I single
   it out to give him the Medal of the Republic?..."

From "the middle east review" fall 1975, a verbatim quote of a 
speech by General Mustafa Tlas, hailing a Syrian "war hero" for his
"treatment" of Israeli POW's.


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:09:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.034655.12949@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:

>	[...] I know about Musawi, for whom I have no compassion.
>	However the fate of is family is tragic.)

I agree.  Having someone like Mussawi in the family would be a tragedy
for any family.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 1992 05:12:03 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <1992Nov22.192135.558@das.harvard.edu>, Adam Shostack writes:
>In article <1en5q1INNlrd@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>In article 1elri7INN896@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>>>         he must be recognized as a criminal.  As it is noted, if
>>>you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But the time must be
>>>somewhat proportional to the crime.  

>>I agree, and from what I've heard his penalty was harsher than other
>>people received for similar things.  That is not acceptable, but it's
>>a problem not limited to politically sensitive matters, nor to the US.

>I'll save this for next time you suggest that Zionists should not
>point out the behavior of other countries to justify Israeli actions.

Beats me how there is any logic to that response.  The only safe 
analogy you can draw is that countries who do similar things to Israel 
in similar circumstances deserve similar criticism.  Since that is
a principle I have always believed in, you don't have a point.

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast