From: palmer@sfu.ca (Leigh Palmer)
Newsgroups: sci.edu
Subject: Re: Grades
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:06:10 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University

In article <43983@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
Rubin) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.203714.16238@sfu.ca> palmer@sfu.ca (Leigh Palmer) writes:
>
>                        ....................
>
>>Hey, you got one thing right! In the "real world" nobody cares what
>>your GPA was. I share your disdain for grades, but you're blind
>>to the malignancy they represent. While your programmer friend might
>>not have been accurately assessed in some sense, he didn't get into
>>Med school, and his physician (likely less intrinsically talented)
>>probably makes more money. GPA's have a good bit of weight in the
>>selection process along the way, much more than they should have in my
>>opinion. I'm glad your friend made it. I'm glad I did, too, given my
>>poor prognosis. Grades preoccupy students, even potentially excellent
>>ones, to a degree which troubles me, since we both know that grades
>>per se are not important. They do get scholarship money, however, and
>>they do open doors to advancement in education.
>
>As someone who has to give out grades, I believe you understate the
>damage they do.  Even if you have not taught, you must have heard
>students ask if something will be on the exam.  Students avoid 
>meaningful courses so that they can get good grades instead of
>learning.  Even the largest universities have a difficult time
>getting students to take good courses because of the concentration
>on grades, and it is difficult to maintain the existence of an honest
>mathemaitics curriculum in a school with an enrollment of more than
>30000.

Actually I've been giving out grades for 26 years, and I'm giving a final
examination in less than an hour to a group of students all of whom elected
to take my course (astrophysics) which is not required for any major program.
I do know how damaging they can be, and my anecdotal repertoire on the 
subject would depress the most idealistic young teacher, so I won't trot it
out here. There! I hope I've corrected any misimpression I may have given.

>IF we really had the right kind of curriculum, so that a student could
>adjust the curriculum taken to his/her ability, getting an A would be an
>indication that the program was too weak.  By the time students get to
>college, this concern with grades has, in most cases, thoroughly blunted
>their educational abilities, and this is even a major problem in PhD
>programs.  It is not confined to American students, either.

Canadian students are near clones, in fact. One difference they used to
maintain was that Canadian students did not have the orientation toward
standardized multiple-choice tests (like the SAT and the Iowa tests) that
US students grew up with. The fixation with grades probably set in at a
later age here as a result. I propagandize those students with whom I
associate by referring to grades sarcastically and by trying to reorient
them to what they should consider to be the valuable product of their 
efforts. It works with some; I'm pleased to say it worked with *all* of
my own children, all of whom maintain their love of learning to this day.

>The evil is so great that they should be abolished.  Those who rely on them
>will be discombobulated, but so what?  Admit that they are garbage.

That's a radical view with which I find myself at least partially in
agreement. I have advocated abolishing grades in the freshman year (or
"first year" as we say in Canada) to ease the high school to college
(or "university" as we say in Canada) transition. That transition is as
stressful a passage as any I know save birth and death, and intrinsically
useless impediments to its success (like grades) should be kept entirely
out of the way. Few of my colleagues will endorse my idea, however. Have
you managed to get rid of grades at your multiversity, Herman?

Leigh Palmer