From: dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
Subject: Re: Before Buying Japanese.
Reply-To: dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:33:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.162238.25862@oakhill.sps.mot.com>, rvkl60@email.sps.mot.com (Tom Mathes) writes:
|> >Granted, but just because GM can finally build a car that doesn't fall apart
|> >when it hits the pavement does not mean they are as good as Honda.  It just
|> >means they are not as bad as they used to be.
|> 
|> And Hondas stay together forever?  Yeah, right.  I look at friends' and
|> family's Hondas for evidence.  My sister's 1985 Accord rattles like
|> a claptrap, has fabric disintegrating all over, has plastic parts breaking
|> in several places or deteriorating (recently, the glove box lock assembly
|> broke; it was a plastic mount, and to properly repair it requires *a new
|> dashboard*!!).  A friend's 1984 Accord looks like a rolling wreck (paint
|> was shot 3 years ago, rusting in several places, fabric in shreds, rattles
|> and creaks all over, plastic is gone or broken everywhere), and my mom's 
|> 1986 Prelude also rattles like a claptrap, not to mention has trashed 2 
|> sets of rotors, due to warping, in only 60K of usage, and has had a CV
|> joint go out recently.  In the meantime, I owned a 1987 Grand Am that 
|> had one bulb burn out in 60K of usage, along with a $40 set of shocks, 
|> a 76 Pontiac that needed a clutch and a water pump during it's 130K of 
|> usage, and a brother with a 90 Grand Prix that only had 1 fuse blow so
|> far (and nothing ever went wrong again).  As for my Saturn SC, nothing 
|> has gone wrong mechanically in 1 year of ownership.  I only have had 
|> constant problems with a paint repair, from an aftermarket shop, that 
|> was done to repair some vandalism (some jerk keyed my car).  The Saturn
|> OEM paint looks great and hasn't chipped; the aftermarket paint has had
|> problems, though.  I cannot attribute that to Saturn.
|> 
|> If this is examples of GM workmanship, I'll take it any day over what
|> I've seen these supposed "superior" Hondas have.

And I have many many many friends who own/have owned Accords over the last 10
years and have had NO problems whatsoever.  You can find examples of good and bad
in any car.  The real question is which car is better more often, and according
to the long term statistics I've seen it's the Honda Accord.

"GM workmanship" has been reviewed time and time again and has shown itself to
be some of the worst workmanship on the market.  It appears to be getting better,
but does not yet appear to be as good as Honda, or even Ford for that matter.

|> >My non-turbo and non-awd Talon will also make you look silly, as will the Impulse
|> >(I own/owned both and blew away many many Saturns).  The MX-3 and Integra are just
|> >as fast (at least according to my magazines) and easily outhandle the Saturn.
|> 
|> It could also be that you're a superior driver, or the other guy had an
|> automatic vs. a manual.  That does make some difference.

It could be that my 162hp Impulse and 135hp Talon are just faster than your 125hp
Saturn.  HP is not the end all and be all, but it does make a difference.

|> >What you have there, my friend, is a nice slow econo with 2 doors - nothing more.
|> 
|> I don't pretend that my SC is as fast as a turbo Diamond-Star triplet.  It
|> is as fast as the non-turbo car, and I've also dusted a friend in a 1990
|> Integra GS with ease from 0-50.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Integra caught
|> up above 60 or so, but for my purposes, I don't care.  The car launches off
|> the line wonderfully and passes with ease thank you very much.  As for braking,
|> my SC has the all disc brakes and ABS, and it stops too fast sometimes (I've had
|> several close calls at being rear ended several).  All reports I've read say
|> the car stops *fast* with this set-up.
|> 
|> As for the MX-3, every magazine I have (C/R, C/D, M/T) say my SC is faster,
|> not by much, but faster.  As for outhandling the SC, I find no published
|> data to support you.  All reports I've read, in the magazines above, say
|> the cars are roughly equal or the Saturn comes out on top.
|> 
|> I've never driven the Diamond-Star cars myself, nor the MX-3.  I have
|> driven several Hondas, a few BMWs, a Miata extensively, some larger
|> GM cars, and to be honest, driving my Saturn is the most satisfying of
|> the lot.  It doesn't have the "impressiveness" of the BMW, but it feels
|> better behind the wheel (better ergonomics perhaps).  It doesn't rattle
|> and buzz like the Hondas I've driven, and has a gutsier low-end torque
|> feel, not to mention it feels more solid to me.  It doesn't rattle your
|> teeth out like the Miata, but it has a nice, precise steering feel.  It
|> doesn't have the quietness of the big GM metal, but it does have that
|> great off the line torque of it's bigger bretheren.  It also is a fun
|> all around car to drive, and it looks great to boot.  None of that
|> amorphous, bland styling so many Japanese imports have these days.

And I've driven the Saturn, the MX-3, the Impulse, and the Talon and I report
exactly the opposite.  I thought the handling of the Saturn was terrible.  All
this proves is that we have different opinions.

|> In maintenance and insurance, I win that contest easily over these imports.  
|> I'm happy with my car, and that's what matters to me.  According to Mr. J.D.
|> Powers' firm, Saturn owners are much happier with their cars than Honda or 
|> Acura or Mazda owners.  Isn't that what really matters after all?

Whatever - I still say 1 year isn't long enough.  If Saturns fall apart after 2 or
3 years everyone will scream that they are crap and GM hasn't changed.  Personally,
I'll wait and see.

Don Clayton
a.k.a. Admiral Maverick, DM of the Drow
My brain, my thoughts, my words.
"I'm all lost in the Supermarket.  I can no longer shop happily.
 I came in here for the special offer, guaranteed personality."
Newsgroups: rec.autos