From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.elections,alt.fan.dan-quayle,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: DATELINE: Bush fucks up!
Date: 10 Sep 92 06:26:20 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Sep9.111518.26548@sinix.UUCP> ian@sinix.UUCP (Ian Malone) writes:
>Well, criminals in Switzerland < which has the highest incidence of violence
>with hand guns, other than the US of course> don't seem to get guns.  In
>Switzerland last year there were 7 murders with hand guns.  In the US there 
>were over 1000.

You do Switzerland a disservice: We should look at the total homocide
rate (after all, dying by knife wounds is just as bad as dying by
gunshot.) The homocide rate for Switzerland is lower than most other
European nations.

But you are leaving out one major point: Switzerland has the loosest
gun laws in Europe. In fact, citizens are requires to keep fully
automatic assault rifles and ammunition in their homes, and are
incouraged to go to rifle ranges and practice. Here in the United 
States, such weapons have been subject to draconian regulation since
1934, and new sales banned since 1986.

It is absure to say the Switz don't have access to firearms.
Since their crime rate is so low, but guns are available, perhaps 
this means crime is a result of social factors, not access to guns.

>  Why? The NRA keeps guns accessible to criminals.

5/6 of the guns used in crimes are obtained illegally. The NRA strongly
in favor of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, but restricting
_legal_ sales (as all the proposed gun control laws would do) doesn't
help. Cracking down on the black market might.

>  Look to
>other countries if you don't believe me.

I have, in England, Canada and two Australian provinces (those places
I have seen statistics for) there was no decrease in homocides associated
with their gun control laws: They had low homocide rates (compared to
the United States) before they passed these laws, and equally low
rates afterwards. Social factors, not access to guns, seemed to 
by the determining factor.

>That NRA/Right-wingnut talk about
>your rights being stripped away is ridiculous.  

The right of the people to keep and bear arms is specifically protected
by the Constitution. All Supreme Court rulings on the subject make it very 
clear that this is the right of individual citizens to own firearms.

If you write off the Second Amendment so easily, what keeps others from
doing the same to the First?

>>Hint:  licensed fully automatic machine guns are
>>_not_ a crime problem.  If fully automatic machine guns seem to be
>>prevalent in crime, it simply shows that the criminals _will_ get
>>whatever armament they desire, law or no law.

>Oh come on, wake up.  Like I said above, look to other countries for a model.
>There are plenty.  Switzerland has the second highest hand-gun associated
>murder rate.  It is literally less than 5% of the US's.  Media distortion?

The media distortion is about the gun control laws here in the United
States, as well as there affect on crime: Switzerland freely allows
and ever requires ownership of those fully automatic weapons you 
consider so dangerous, while sales of them have been illegal here since
1986.

If you don't know anything about the current gun control laws, or their
effectiveness (none at all), why are you expressing your (uninformed)
opinions on the subject so forcefully?

                                              Frank Crary
                                              CU Boulder
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections