From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: Secular, Muslim Brotherhood and Changes
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:16:22 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati

In article <1jv3e1INNk4j@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <C1DKrM.C35@news.udel.edu>, khaleq@brahms.udel.edu (M
>Khalequzzaman) writes:
>
>> We don't need to change any secular government,  because secularism is
>> recognized in Koran (see Unbelievers - a verse of Koran).  What we
>> really need to do is to overthrow muslim monarchs and kingdom in an attempt
>> to establish a secular and democratic world.
>
>Here is Surah 109 (The Unbelievers):
>
>    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
>
>    1. Say: O unbelievers!
>
>    2. I do not serve that which you serve,
>
>    3. Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
>
>    4. Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
>
>    5. Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
>
>    6. You shall have your religion and I shall have my
>    religion.
>
>Please explain what this has to do with secularism.  Saying that
>secularism is recognized by the Qur'an is a paradox.  What Surah 109
>tells us is that there is no compulsion in religion and everyone is
>free to follow whatever religion they please.  This is *not* the same
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>as secularism.  And while Islam advocates democracy, it does not
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please explain this line.  According to what I know about secularism
everyone is free to follow whatever religion they please.
 
>support secularism in the sense the word is used today.  For a
>Muslim, Islam is a way of life, and hence influences any ideology.
>
>It has become very fashionable in the academic world to jump onto the
>bandwagon of "secularism" and sit content that it is great and that it
>works.  Does it?  Has it been working in the neighbor the west of
>Bangladesh?  Does it work in Europe?  I grew up in predominantly Roman

India is having some problems now, but they will soon be solved,
do you think India would be better off as an Hindu state? Is Pakistan
better off because it is an Islamic state?

>Catholic Austria which is run, in theory, by a very secular
>government.  And yet, you cannot spend a second in Austria without
>experiencing the religious forces around you.  The holidays, the times
>that stores open and close, so many laws and practices make the
>concept of "secularism" laughable.  Look at England.  Every school
>requires all students, regardless of religious background to say
>prayers every morning, and in all boarding schools, all students must
>attend church services.  And it is in England that a court ruled a few
>years ago that the blasphemy laws only apply to the Christian religion.
>Still we consider the British government a secular government.  
>
I think the US is a better example of a secular state.

>The fact of the matter is that "secularism" as a concept does not seem
>to be implementable when there is a distinct majority who have a set
>of morals and values on which they base their laws.  In many cases
>this set of values results from an underlying religious base,
>regardless what the religion may be.  To pretend that the state is
>independent of religion or collective values and beliefs is
>self-delusional.
>
>What needs to be guaranteed is not "secularism," but religious
>freedom.  The two are not interchangeable.  Islam guarantees the
>latter.

Which Islamic state guarantees religious freedom?  I am waiting
for your rhetoric "there is no true Islamic state yet".
>
>-- Shakil Ahmed
>=======================================================================
>Dept. of Computer Science     INTERNET: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu
>P.O. Box 2158, Yale Station   BITNET  : ahmed-shakil@yalecs.bitnet
>New Haven, CT 06520-2158      UUCP    : {ucbvax,harvard,...}!yale!ahmed
>=======================================================================
>

Manoj