From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: SPUR meeting on SF Transbay Terminal
Keywords: CalTrain extension Transbay Terminal
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:39:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.225817.20544@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
|> 	I've been to the TT several times, and it doesn't look like
|> there's enough room for all of these trains.

It's a six track train station.  SF streetcars stopped out front.
BayLink rail service to/from the east bay would replace many of
the buses that use the terminal today.


|> CalTrain? Maybe, if one keeps the space at 4th and Townsend for
|> use as a yard.

Yes, a yard external to the TBT would likely be needed.

|> And I'm not quite sure that a full-length CalTrain can fit into
|> the length of the terminal.

Don't worry, they'd fit quite nicely.  The TBT is 900 ft. long.
A CalTrain car is 85-90 ft. long.  Since the locomotive does not 
need to be "under the roof", a 10-car CalTrain is okay.  The
longest CalTrain trainsets in regular use today are 6 cars.


|> ramps will also be troublesome; I don't think there's enough real
|> estate around to make them gentler.

Curvature is okay for all standard 85 ft. rail equipment.  TRAC and
TGV are looking into curvature with respect to the extra-long bogies
under the articulated part of a TGV trainset.  In the worst case,
the TGV equimpment could run push-pull in/out of the TBT (enter &
leave via the same side).  


|> 	CalSpeed? Much the same as for CalTrain, only probably worse.
|> Same length and curve problems, and an additional one, the question of
|> crossing the Bay Bridge. A TGV-type trainset (2 electric locos + 10
|> passenger cars) will probably weigh at least 500 tons or so (30
|> tons/car and 100 tons/loco), and it would have to cross at about 60
|> mph or thereabouts so as not to take too much time there.

The TBT and bridge were designed for 90 ton cars such as the all-steel
cars run by the Sacramento Northern.  TGV equipment is limited to
17 tons per axle and the TGV locos only weigh 67 tons.  TGV cars are
in the 30 ton range.

There is nothing stopping several 40 ton trucks from driving near each
other on the bridge!

The biggest weight problem is with CalTrain.  Cars are about 60 tons
while the F40s (locomotives) are about 105 tons.  CalTrain would need
locomotives in the 90 ton range in order to access the TBT.  Height
is not a problem either.  TRAC believes even Amtrak Superliners would
fit into the TBT.


|> 	If two or three of these are run at once, there is the
|> question of how they would coexist. CalSpeed TGV's and BayLink LRV's
|> would have to share the tracks across the Bay Bridge, for instance.

Right.  Questions would have to be answered, but it's considered
quite possible.  Remember that with BayLink, there'd be one track
per deck of the Bay Bridge.  (The tracks of yesteryear were both on
the bottom deck.)  This way, motorists only lose one lane per deck
while bridge capacity is dramatically increased.  Also, it is thought
that many trips made on BayLink will free up precious space in
crowded BART trains through the "tube" for people commuting in from
further out.


|> There is the question of how much room there will be at the TT: there
|> are four lanes inside, and a CalTrain and a CalSpeed train would
|> occupy one lane/track each, and would possibly be long enough to
|> occupy some of the access track.

There is room for six 900 ft. tracks.  That's over 1 mile of track in
the station...  CalTrain would be just fine with 2 tracks, BayLink
could have 2 or 3 and CalSpeed could have 3 or 2.  Also, electrified
CalTrain and CalSpeed/TGV would likely run off the same 25kV AC wire.
The BayLink stuff would probably run off typical LRT low(er) voltage
DC.  Both LRT and TGV can be configured to run off dual (or more)
voltages as current European practice shows.

Yes, and with the above I'm implying that the TBT woudl go back to
rail-only with a lesser number of buses stopping outside.


|> 	Personally, I think it would be easier for a CalSpeed train to
|> stop at the East Bay, at least in the immediate future.

Probably.  However, I don't anticipate many people being enthusiastic
about the last leg of the journey to SF being via ferry boat (as some
others have suggested).


-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov