HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Das Lied van der Erde ( was Re: Mahler 1)
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:31:19 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

Tong Bo-Ming writes:
> I would also like to hear about all the favourite recordings of
> Mahler's 9th and Song of the Earth.  Any suggestions ?

For Song of the Earth, try the recording by Brigitte Fassbaender and Thomas
Moser with Cyprien Katsaris playing the piano accompaniment...  yep, you
read that right.  It's Mahler's own piano version, and it's surprising how
little difference it makes that the orchestration isn't there.

It's a Teldec cassette, 2292-46276-4; I don't know what other formats it
was issued in.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Carmen Ballet
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:07:44 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Diarmuid Pigott writes:
>
> Olympia in UK might bring it out (they may have te rights
> to it) otherwise, you'll just have to rely on a Melodyia re-issue.
>


Isn't there a version of this conducted by Gerard Schwarz on some American
label like Delos?
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Haydn recommendations
Date: 1 Oct 92 04:14:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

From: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts)

>inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:

>> yes, it's the Haydn backlash. Sorry, Asbed Bedrossian, but
>>I agree completely with Deryck Barker - Haydn was the finer
>>symphonist than Mozart (the piano concerti are another matter).

>But what do you and Deryck mean by finer symphonist? In his time, Haydn was
>probably the more innovative in developing the form, but surely Mozart was the
>more imaginative of the two in terms of what he used the form for, as he was
>in most other genres. I'm fond of Haydn myself, but not to the extent of going
>overboard in comparing his efforts to Mozart's.

 I disagree - I'd argue that Haydn was more (even much more) imaginative in his
symphonic writing than Mozart. I don't have ready references to hand, but
Haydn was certainly more experimental in exploring/developing the 
sonataform framework - moving through a series of unexpected, dimly 
related keys. I find Mozart's symphonic style much more predictable - but 
there is the inbuilt bias here in that he wrote far fewer symphonies, so it's 
easier to remember what he did write. Nonetheless, I see Haydn as the
imaginative developer of tools, Mozart as a (sublimely inspired at times)
user. Apart, that is, from the operas. On the other hand, in the greatest
Mozart works there is less of a sense of technicality, more of a sense of
personal writing, than in Haydn - H. C. Robbins Landon says something along
those lines towards the end of his `Last year' book. 

>One genre where I *do* think Haydn superior to Mozart, though, is choral music.
>Haydn seems here to have been much more consistently inspired than Mozart, and
>I can't for the life of me see why the latter's masses have achieved such
>popularity. The fact that his most famous, the Requiem and C-minor, both
>remain  unfinished seems unsurprising (admittedly more so in the case of the
>Requiem!). Some of Mozart's fugal writing is positively mind-numbing and if
>anybody can explain to me why on earth the Requiem is so popular, without
>mentioning the film 'Amadeus', I might be a happier man.

>Martin Watts.
From: tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: What is it with Tennstedt?
Date: 3 Oct 92 03:06:54 GMT
Reply-To: tony@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University

At the risk of drawing the wrath of r.m.c. on my head, I have to say that I
do not understand why Tennstedt has mysteriously risen over the last few years
to Great Conductor status. I have heard him live once or twice, and he has
done a very professional job, perhaps more than that now and again. I have
repeatedly taken critical advice and bought his recordings, and I have been
uniformly disappointed (and I have tried Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, and
Mahler). The performances seem to me to lack bite, drive, and style, although
they are always professional and capable.

So, friends, enlighten me? Why is this guy all over the concert world, instead
of still conducting radio orchestras in the former DDR, as he did for decades
(deservedly, to my ears)?

					Tony Movshon

Internet:  movshon@nyu.edu

US Mail:   Howard Hughes Medical Institute
	   Center for Neural Science
	   New York University
	   4 Washington Place, room 809
	   New York, NY 10003
Phone:	   (212) 998-7880
Fax:	   (212) 995-4183
From: rchrd@netcom.com (Richard Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Karlheinz
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:40:16 GMT
Organization: Applied Parallel Rsrch (Berkeley)

chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789") writes:


>Greetings... Has anybody seen the Stockhausen Edition CDs in any of the big 
>stores in New York etc.? Did you notice how they were priced? I checked 
>between Sibelius and Strauss in my local store, and no joy... 

I dont think you will find the Stockhausen Verlag CDs in stores.
As far as I know they are only available by mail order directly
from SV (Kettenberg 15, 5067 Kurten, Germany)

The prices fo the CD's range from 26DM to 120DM for the 5cd set 
of MONTAG uas LICHT.  Thats about $22/CD at the current
exchange rate.  

You can write to the aabove address and request a catalog and
mail order information.
-- 
/\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/\
\/Richard Friedman (510)528-7055  |  rchrd@netcom.com    
/\Applied Parallel Rsch (Berkeley)|                          /\
\/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\/
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Ring Resounding question
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:49:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep24.181513.23354@cmcl2.nyu.edu>, tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon) writes:
>In article 2208@lloyd.Camex.COM, chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>> At one point Culshaw describes a conductor whose outrageous behavior
>> affected the career of one of Culshaw's colleagues.  This same
>> conductor later made even more outrageous comments upon learning that
>> the colleague had died.  Does anyone know whom Culshaw was talking about?
>
>Josef Krips, I believe.

This recalls to minds a joke told to me by a violinist with the Met Opera
Orchestra.  It seems that Krips would always gesticulate to the orchestra,
and say "Gentlmen!" (waving his hand in front of his chest) "Beethoven is
over here!  But Mozart!" (waving his hand way above his head) "Mozart is way,
way up here!"

Eventually, after Krips died, the members of the orchestra would say:
"Gentlemen!"  (waving their hands in front of their chests) "Mozart is over
here!  But Krips!" (waving their hands way above their heads) "Krips, is
way, way up there!"

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.misc,rec.music.makers
From: 6o25@sdf.lonestar.org (Stephen M. Jones)
Subject: INformation on VIOLA..
Organization: Super Dimension Fortress - Public Acess Unix - Dallas, Tx.. 
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:32:03 GMT


could someone please email me on the technical aspects of the viola?
(tuning, finger placement.. how to hold.. maintence.. heh) thank
you!
-- 
Stephen Jones - SysAdm/SDF - 6o25@sdf.lonestar.org
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Re : A Midsummer night's dream
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:28:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.143713.136494@eratu.rz.uni-konstanz.de> pohl@lindau.inf-wiss.ivp.uni-konstanz.de (Wolfgang Pohl) writes:
>In article <5XH7KXN@minnie.zdv.uni-mainz.de>, tkurs-2@micky.uni-mainz.de (Teilnehmer am TeXkurs fuer Naturwissenschaftler) writes:
>> The Mendelssohn version is simply called ' Ein Sommernachtstraum'
>> and no opera but more a kind of incidental music, written to the
>> German translation of Shakespeare's comedy.
>> It does contain the famous wedding-march you can again hear at Wagner
>> and also the famous overture.
>> [stuff deleted]

>Well, the Wagner wedding march (I guess it's "Treulich gefuehrt"
>from "Lohengrin") as far as I know has nothing in common with the
>one from "Ein Sommernachtstraum" by Mendelssohn. 

True enough.  But one does hear the two together...

>In fact, I couldn't imagine Wagner with his anti-Semitic attitudes
>borrowing themes from Mendelssohn, who was member of a fairly prominent
>jewish family.

He did, though.  The Hebrides Ov. evidently inspired him a bit for 
Dutchman.

> I by heritage own a small German music encyclopedia from
>1942(!) or so; if you look up "Mendelssohn", you will find a quotation
>from some Wagner publication, which is an almost contemptuous critique
>of M. and his music.

That came after 1850.  

Roger
From: gr@st-andrews.ac.uk (Gavin Ramsay)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Orchestras/conductors
Date: 5 Oct 92 10:15:53 GMT
Organization: St. Andrews University, Scotland.

>> I wonder if any of you can help me. I'm doing a compilation of some of
>> the big name orchestras and hope to do a list of who's conducting who
>> (or who's the Musical Director).
>> 
>> European Orchestras:
>> 1.   Berlin Phil         Abbado
>> 2.   Vienna Phil         ?
>> 3.   London Symphony
Michael Tilson Thomas
>> 4.   London Phil         Franz W. Most
>> 5.   Royal Phil
>Ashkenazy is there I believe.
>> 6.   Dresden Staatkapellen

SinopolI
>> 7.   Concertgebouw       Chailly
>> 8.   Suisse Romaunde
>> 9.   any others ?
>BBC Symphony  - Colin Davis

not colin davis but andrew daviS
>CBSO - Simon Rattle
>> 
>> American Orchestras:
>> 1.   Chicago             Barenboim
>> 2.   New York            Masur
>> 3.   Philadelphia        Swallich
>> 4.   Cleveland           Maazel (?)
>Dohnanyi since the early 80's
>> 5.   Los Angeles         Giulini (?)
>> 6.   Boston              Ozawa
>> 7.   St. Louis           Slatkin
>> 8.   Montreal
>Dutoit
>> 9.   San Francisco       Bloomstedt
>> 10.  Cinncinati          Kunzel
>> 11.  Other orchestras with big recording contracts ?
>> 
>> Other continents:
>> 1.   Israel              Metha
>> 2.   Tokyo Symphony
>> 3.   ?

Royal Scottish Orchestra (form SNO)  WEller
Philharmonia        SinopolI
Royal Liverpool PO  PeseK
>Rob

Gavin RamsaY
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Orchestras/conductors
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 03:52:13 GMT

In article <2ACB17A2.18306@news.service.uci.edu> jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.042835.13776@nuscc.nus.sg> art30248@nusunix1.nus.sg (NG LING LING) writes:
>>I wonder if any of you can help me. I'm doing a compilation of some of
>>the big name orchestras and hope to do a list of who's conducting who
>>(or who's the Musical Director).
>>
>>European Orchestras:
>>American Orchestras:
>>4.   Cleveland           Maazel (?)
>I'm not positive, but a think it's Dohanyi in Cleveland.

Christoph von Dohnanyi - grandson of composer Ernst.
>
>>5.   Los Angeles         Giulini (?)
>
>And, in his first year at the LAPhil,  ...  Esa Pekka Salonen
>
>>8.   Montreal
>
>Here it's Dutoit  I believe.

Charles of that ilk, yes.
>
>>10.  Cinncinati          Kunzel

How about Leonard Slatkin at the St. Louis Symphony, Gunther Herbig at
the Toronto SO, David Zinman at the Baltimore SO, Christoph Eschenbach
at the Houston SO.

Who's at Boston these days?

And don't forget Simon Rattle at the City of Birmingham SO.

I don't think anyone is in charge at Vienna right now.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: rath6051@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Carmen Ballet
Date: 28 Sep 92 00:15:12 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa



        Although I haven't been reading this group as much as I am supposed to,
but I have read the FAQ, and have read this group occasionally.

        My question:  How does one go about finding a particular work that may
be rare, or just not available in the places I've looked.  I guess then my
question is two fold, first what are places that I can look when trying to find
a particular piece of music, and second, does anyone know where I can find:

        Carmen Ballet (Bizet) performed by the Bollshoi Orchestra

I had a copy a long time ago, but time and poor tape quality have taken its
toll on it.  Does anyone know where I can get it, or how to go about looking 
for it?

        Please email responses to me directly.  Thanks for the help!

-John

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Beethoven Sonata 32
In-reply-to: danb@zx.qsp.UUCP's message of 28 Sep 92 22:53:16 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Sep24.025121.8491@credence.com> <5505@maserati.qsp.UUCP>
Date: 29 Sep 92 10:34:50 CDT

Daniel Benbenisty writes:

   Beethoven's last piano sonata (32nd) has two movements, and the first 
   half of the second movement is a set of 6 variations on a theme.  The 
   last of these variations is what especially fascinates me, since it 
   resembles to me a heavily syncopated, fast-swingin' jazz number more 
   than anything else (except with B's compositional flair)!

   I don't think that this style was reflected in the folk tunes of the era...
   I mean, I've never heard anything like this from this period (1820's)
   or any other period until late ragtime or early American Jazz...
   Beethoven of course was way ahead of his time, and almost singly drove 
   the music of his era to a new territory - but this is almost too cute!  
   Can anyone clue me in?  From what sources B might have derived inspiration, 
   or was this just a result of one of his original music forays?
   Also, does anyone have any records as to how this piece (or this style,
   if it existed as such) may have influenced later composers...

I reacted the same way on first hearing this.  I'm interested in this
and other examples of syncopation that were *not* derived from African
practice.  The answer to your question, I would guess, is that this was
"a result of one of his original music forays".  In other words, western
composers were going to discover syncopation on their own, in the same
way that the old and new worlds discovered many similar architectural
forms.  I'm sure there are exhaustive studies of all uses of syncopation
from the earliest notated music, and I seem to remember hearing some
surprisingly early examples.  In all cases it seems to have the same
effect that it has in jazz, somehow strengthening our awareness of the
meter by fighting it and complicating it.  Just think of the epic
example of syncopation in the Ode to Joy theme--the beat that is *not*
directly articulated is the most dramatic moment in the theme.  Just my
random thoughts; now let's hear from an expert.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: harrison@src.dec.com (Stephen Harrison)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: How much should I pay for a Steinway grand?
Keywords: steinway grand price
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:06:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: src.1992Oct6.220645.3386
Reply-To: harrison@src.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Systems Research Center
Bcc: meehan



Folks,

A friend is in the market for a Steinway grand, and would like to know what's
a reasonable percentage of list price to shoot for when it comes to talking
about money.  Cars, oriental rugs, and most other musical instruments are all
priced well over dealer cost---I assume grand pianos are the say way.

Does anyone know what the scoop is on how to purchase one of these fine pianos
without spending quite as much as the salesperson would like you to?

Thanks,

/Stephen

--
Stephen Harrison              | harrison@pa.dec.com
Systems Research Center       | 
Digital Equipment Corporation | work +1 (415) 853-2140
130 Lytton Avenue             | fax  +1 (415) 853-2104
Palo Alto, CA 94301, USA      | home +1 (408) 739-7734
From: rms@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Rick Scherer)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:16:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Orchestras/conductors
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

I have been trying to collect the same information.  Here is my current list:

Atlanta			Levi
Baltimore		Zinman
Berlin Philharmonic	Abbado
Birmingham		Rattle
Boston			Ozawa
Chicago			Barenboim
Cincinnatti		Lopez-Cobos
Cleveland		Dohnanyi
Columbus		Badea
Czech Philharmonic	Belohlavek
Dallas			Mata
Detroit			Jarvi
Houston			Eshenbach
Indianapolis		Leppard
Israel Philharmonic	Mehta
La Scala		Muti
Leningrad		Temirkanov
London Symphony		Thomas	
Los Angeles		Salonen
Minnesota		De Waart
Montreal		Dutois
N. Y. Philharmonic	Boulez
National		Rostropovich
Oslo Philharmonic	Jansons
Philhadelphia		Sawallisch
Pittsburgh		Maazel
Royal Philharmonic	Ashkenazy
Royal Concertgebouw	Chailly
San Francisco		Blomstedt
Seattle			Schwarz
St. Paul Chamber	Hogwood
St. Louis		Slatkin
Toronto			Davis
Utah			Silverstein

---
Rick Scherer
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: On Wagner motives...
Date: 5 Oct 92 05:09:19 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

I'm sorry I can not help you but I have a question that, being a Wagner
fan, you might help me with. In Tristan und Isolde there is, somewhere
a very dark motif played with very low strings and it sounds very
sinister it vaguely resemples the love-potion theme but I'm not quite
positive. Also ona totally different matter, don't you believe that the
lack of intrest in modern classical music is due to the overbearing
influence of Wagner through Strauss, Mahler et. al? I do appreciate
Wagner especially Parsifal. However if you consider the popular taste
of Puccini, Verdi's successor against Strauss and Wagner than you'll
realize where we "went wrong". Just a thought, however I would like to
now the Tristan answer and I'll try to find you the answer to your
question here at college.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: haydn symphony recommendations
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:39:59 GMT

In article <8064@public.BTR.COM> midkiff@public.BTR.COM (Neil E. Midkiff  midkiff@btr.com) writes:

>I'll be happy to add my name to the list of Haydn fans, too.  One thing
>that only impressed itself on me recently was that the Oxford (92) and
>London (93-104) symphonies were all written *after* Mozart had stopped
>writing symphonies (K. 543, 550, 551 in summer 1788).  I guess I had 
>previously pigeonholed Haydn (born 24 years earlier) as an earlier 
>generation than Mozart, and didn't realize how fruitful he was in the
>years following Mozart's death.

Symphonies, quartets, trios, Masses, the two oratorios, the Te Deum,
etc.  What a way to go!

>I remember reading that Mozart and Haydn knew each other's string quartets
>well, and each learned from the other's experiments and innovations.  Do we
>know whether Haydn was able to hear performances of, or had access to 
>scores of, the Mozart symphonies?

Certainly the Jupiter: Haydn 98, slow movement, has a 2nd theme that's
very close to the 2nd theme of the slow movement ofthe Jupiter.  What
with the first theme quoting -- almost -- "God save the King", this move-
ment is a double farewell: to England and to his great colleague.
 
>I don't intend to imply in any way that Haydn's success was imitative.

Neither was Mozart's, eve nthough Op. 20 of Haydn certainly affected the
second half-dozen of Mozart's quartets, and Op. 33 probably inspired the
big set of six.  

Part of the difference in their styles was due to the difference in
audiences.  Haydn had the innovative, novelty-seeking Count Esterhazy
to please; Mozart had Salzburg, and then the musical market in Vienna.
Oversimplification alert -- but part of the story.

>Other posters have made the point that Haydn laid the foundations of the
>Classical quartet and symphony early on, and that much of his distinctive
>style arises from his "mind-games" with bending the rules and tweaking
>the listener's expectations.

>Still, it would be interesting to know whether some of the same cross-
>pollination effect was at work in the symphonic field between these
>two giants.

Of course there was.  Check out Rosen's _The Classical Style_ for a
non-rigorous exploration of this.

Roger
From: jimmosk@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jim J Moskowitz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Mahler and all that Rott
Date: 27 Sep 92 23:30:01 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

I'm in a bad state of shock, folks.
Last night I tuned in to a local station and caught the last two movements of
a symphony I'd never heard before.  It was clearly Mahler (at first), because
the scherzo I'd tuned in on had all the effects, and another very-close-to
variation of the same theme that many Mahler scherz(os/i) have.  Except I knew
all of Mahler's symphonies (except the 8th, which I know is choral), and this
wasn't any of them.  A brief jolting "They've discovered Mahler's 1-1/2th!"
(because the music seemed to belong about there in his development -- I've been
unable to specify why I thought this, so I should muse on it some more...)
soon gave way to "Ah, it's some quasi-pastiche Neo-Romantic symphony (although 
it's doing a damn good job, like Easley Blackwood did that great job writing
his 5th symphony a la Sibelius)."  Then the 4th movement started and I got
confused again, because it sounded all Arthur-Sullivanish, bombastically
English with a 'final chord' that was stretched out to thirty bars of nonsense.
Then came the real kicker.  
The piece was Hans Rott's symphony in E (I believe...), written more than a
decade _before_ Mahler's 1st, and, as the announcer stated, "clearly an
influence on Mahler's composition".  Well give that announcer the understate-
ment of the year award!  All this time I've thought Mahler to have such an
original unique voice that really struck new ground, and here he'd gone and
gotten his ideas from this other guy (who then himself disappeared from rep)!
I'm being unfair; ther's much more to Mahler than his scherzo theme, but if he
was that much of a copycat here, who's to say he didn't steal his 'Ressurection'
music from Kieter Dinklebrau?
Has anybody else heard this piece, and have you felt as I?  Maybe we should set
up a Mahler-disillusionment support group  :-)

-Jim

--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jim Moskowitz  jimmosk@eniac.seas.upenn.edu   space within lines not dedicated
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical