HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zbig@wariat.org (Zbigniew J. Tyrlik)
Subject: Re: Need SCO XENIX and PC Hardware help
Followup-To: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Reply-To: zbig@wariat.org (Zbigniew J. Tyrlik)
Organization: Akademia Pana Kleksa, Public Access Uni* Site
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:17:28 GMT

As quoted from <KETIL.92Dec15025151@sandel.ii.uib.no> by ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde):

+---------------
> Just thought I'd point out that linux also supports NFS (with the 0.99
> kernel) and as soon as we can get an IP adress from the sysadmin, and a
> driver for this here e-net card, we'll let you know how it works out,
> (if you're interested that is)
> 

Well, I am runnnign ISC 3.0 myslef, but at least 2 of my leaf
sites are running different versions of Linux. So, either post it
here, maybe better in comp.os.linux ? And if you  wouldn't mind,
e-mail it to me. 



> Ah, yes, never can have too much disk space :-)
> 

True... Do you have some 2.4GB SCSI drives sitting idle somewhere? 
I wil get some use for them....

> --
>  = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
>  = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =


_zjt
-- 
********************************************************************
Zbigniew J. Tyrlik       DoD# 0759   VF700C '84      zbig@wariat.org
IBM PC SIG Sysop - Cleveland Free-Net    aa609@cleveland.freenet.edu
APK	       Public Access UNI* Cleveland,          (216)-481-9436
Feeds, shell, FTP & telnet access        Uniboard distribution point 
********************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386
From: someone@Texaco.com (Larry D. Pyeatt)
Subject: Re: PC-Clone UNIX Hardware Buyer's Guide
Organization: Texaco
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:51:28 GMT

In article <id.4SOV.6D2@ferranti.com>, peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec4.152217.10154@rwwa.COM> witr@rwwa.com writes:
|> > In article <id.PPIV.GDK@ferranti.com>, 
|> > peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
|> > | That's an interesting definition of a "reasonable UNIX engine".
|> 
|> > Of course you no doubt agree that opinions differ on what a ``reasonable
|> > UNIX engine'' is don't you?
|> 
|> Well, yes, that's sort of my point... that by going with a 486SX and making
|> different system integration decisions (blow off the FPU, put the money into
|> RAM and/or disk) you *can* put together a reasonable (hell, a damn good)
|> UNIX box for a lot less money.
|> 
|> Remember, an FPU was an extra cost option on the PDP-11.

I think it should also be pointed out that your definition of ``reasonable
UNIX engine'' may depend on exactly what you are going to do with it.
I train lots of Neural Networks, run wierd optimization programs, play
with 3-D graphics, and generally use lots of FLOPS.  The FPU cuts the time
needed for these jobs down to one tenth of a non-FPU machine.  For my typical,
day-to-day computing, I NEED an FPU.  However, when I am sitting around
running xrn and emacs, the FPU is almost idle.  Peter claims that for his
needs an FPU is less important than disk space or RAM.  That is probably
true, but for my needs, I would rather give up some disk space than the
FPU.

that's $0.02, thanks.

-- 
Larry D. Pyeatt                 The views expressed here are not
Internet : pyeatt@texaco.com    those of my employer or of anyone
Voice    : (713) 975-4056       that I know of with the possible
                                exception of myself.
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.linux
From: roell@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Thomas Roell)
Subject: Re: ET4000/W32 and VESA VL-Bus
Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, Technische Univ. Muenchen, Germany
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:06:53 GMT

>does anyone already using the new ET4000/W32 chip, perhaps in an
>VESA VL local bus version? How is the performance compared with
>ET4000AX and does it work with XFree86 1.1?

I think nobody actually uses the ET4000/W32 currently, since I don't
know any SHIPPING hardware yet. I do assume that the ET4000/W32 is
much faster than the ET4000, based upon some expiriance I had with
other DRAM based accelerators. Take for example the WD90C31 (DS24X).
If you use the SVGA only driver you'll get around 9000 xstones, if you
use a driver that uses the internal acceleration capablities, you'll
get around 45000. It would assume that the latter number is the lower
limit for the ET4000/W32s performance. 

But there are some constraints you should think of:

a) The performance of a DRAM based accellerator depends VERY much upon
   the refresh frequency (i.e. dot-clock). Let's say you have a DRAM
   bandwidth of 100MB/sec (let's assume it doesn't matter wether these
   are RAS/CAS or RAS/multiple-CAS cycles). If you use a 1024x768 60Hz
   resolution, you need about 65MB/sec for screen refresh only. This
   leaves you with around 35MB/sec for doing graphics. If you use
   1024x768 72Hz, you need 75MB/sec for screen refresh. That means you
   have only 25MB/sec for doing graphics. If you consider that you can
   use the fast page mode accesses for screen refresh only and most of
   the graphics operation won't be able to use them (since they are
   interruped by screen refresh cycles), this computation is in fact
   over optimisitic.

b) The ET4000/W32 was build for MS-Windows. Hence I do expect that
   they haven't all in the chip that you would like for X. On the
   other hand I do expect too many things tuned for MS-Windows to you
   have to work hard to get X-Windows semantics.

- Thomas

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Das Reh springt hoch, 				e-mail: roell@sgcs.com
das Reh springt weit,				#include <sys/pizza.h>
was soll es tun, es hat ja Zeit ...
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: idea for non-cached mem above 16M (was Which motherboard?)
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:13:53 GMT

In <id.G5VV.8F7@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

>In article <1992Dec14.231244.22459@klaava.Helsinki.FI> torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds) writes:
>> I haven't tried anything like that, and frankly, I don't want to.

>Be better off writing a driver that treated it as a big RAM disk, and then
>you could use it for primary swap space, a fast /tmp file system, or if you
>run CNEWS just symlink /usr/spool/news/in.coming to point there...

This is sort of what OS/2 does with it -- it uses it for swap, I
think.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: barrett@pamsrc.enet.dec.com (Keith Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: Re: Boot Manager for unix/dos
Keywords: boot manager,dos,unix
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:18:25 GMT
Reply-To: barrett@pamsrc.enet.dec.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp.


Was there a hardware guide posted?

Could someone post it again?
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.linux
From: roell@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Thomas Roell)
Subject: Re: ET4000/W32 and VESA VL-Bus
	<1992Dec17.190542.2662@utagraph.uta.edu>
Organization: Inst. fuer Informatik, Technische Univ. Muenchen, Germany
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:59:06 GMT

>I thought that since EGA boards have been using double ported DRAM to
>avoid this?  Or are you saying 100MBs is for both ports?  I have noticed
>some ads saying their S3 board uses double ported DRAM so are we to
>assume that most are not?  If so then as you say this will instantly
>destroy any speed a coprocessor can give as the only thing that matters
>then is faster DRAM.  I am no expert (as is obvius to the experts by
>now) but I am just trying to get this picture.  If ram access has always
>got this refresh overhead (assuming a single port) then any board will
>simply be limited by DRAM bandwidth.

Yes, you are right, partially. Of course the serious graphics boards
use all VRAM, which are dual ported RAMs specifically for graphics
boards. They have a internal shift register for the screen refresh
data and a random access port for the graphics engine. And of course
those allow you to use the 100MB/sec (which was again just a sample
number which seems to be realistic for the WD90C31) exclusively for
the drawing operations. But the point was that somebody asked about
the ET4000/W32, which is a DRAM based (and not VRAM based) solution.
In my eyes, nothing justifies the usage of DRAMs for a graphics board if
you want to use it for a GUI. The price difference is rather minor
in those days.

Also there are quite a number of S3 chips, which use EITHER VRAM or
DRAM:

	86C911		VRAM
	86C924		VRAM
	86C801		DRAM
	86C805		DRAM
	86C928		VRAM


What I am saying is that for 1028x768 in 70Hz and 1280x1024 you should
generally forget the DRAM based solutions. Even if they look good at
benchmarks; most of these benchmarks used a 640x480 resolution,
where the screen refresh only takes 25MB/sec, and the available
bandwidth for graphics operations is quite the same as for VRAM based
solutions. But if you use the DRAM based boards at 1024x768, 70Hz,
you'll see the difference.

- Thomas

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Das Reh springt hoch, 				e-mail: roell@sgcs.com
das Reh springt weit,				#include <sys/pizza.h>
was soll es tun, es hat ja Zeit ...
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:853 comp.unix.sysv386:17533
From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Re: PC-Clone UNIX Hardware Buyer's Guide
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:57:58 GMT
	<id.PPIV.GDK@ferranti.com> <ByyLw8.Jrz@hfglobe.intel.com>
	<id.1SOV.762@ferranti.com> <1992Dec14.205445.6059@crd.ge.com>
Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Organization: Prifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth

On 14 Dec 92 20:54:45 GMT, davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen) said:

davidsen> I know people who still buy new machines with 14" mono
davidsen> screens, too, but I don't recommend that, either.

Frankly I think that mono (actually grayscale) screens are *much* better
for most uses of a machine. Color is mostly useful only for GIFs and
CAD; sw development and office automation are nicer in mono, because
colour monitors are much more blurry and tiring to look at.

On the other hand I don't like 14" monitors, and I don't like landscape
monitors too (just about the monitor I like like is a 14" color
landscape monitor, which is the most popular type actually).

I would really like a 15" (or up to 17", then they start to become too
heavvy and big, and my desk is small) portrait VGA compatible grayscale
monitor.

Anybody knows where to get one? Would it be possible with a suitably
rigged cable to use a MacIntosh fullpage display with an SVGA board?
--
Piercarlo Grandi, Dept of CS, PC/UW@Aberystwyth <pcg@aber.ac.uk>
  E l'italiano cantava, cantava. E le sue disperate invocazioni giunsero
  alle orecchie del suo divino protettore, il dio della barzelletta
From: mhuang@bu.edu (Maohai Huang)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: Re: Lynx user looking for other lynxos users.
Date: 18 Dec 92 04:12:30 GMT
Organization: Boston University
In-reply-to: smooge@nmt.edu's message of 7 Dec 92 22:34:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec7.223441.9519@nmt.edu> smooge@nmt.edu (the Smooge) writes:

   From: smooge@nmt.edu (the Smooge)
   Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
   Summary: looking for users of LynxOS
   Keywords: LynxOS
   Date: 7 Dec 92 22:34:41 GMT
   Organization: New Mexico Tech
   Lines: 10

   Hello, I am an administrator of a 386DX pc running the Lynx Operating
   System, and I am posting this to try and make connections to any other
   people running LynxOS. There have been various bugs (fixes), and
   changes between versions (currently running 2.1), that I would gladly
   try to help with for equivalent information.

   thanks in advance
   Stephen Smoogen
   sys admin @ glasya.nmt.edu
   (mail address smooge@jupiter.nmt.edu)

Ahaaa... find another!

Have you ever posted on comp.realtime? I believe you can find some people
occasionally talking about Lynx there. Yet only a few.

Sevral months ago I start to use Lynx and I'm under Lynx v2.1 on a
486/33. Porting software to Lynx is sometimes nightmare.

Talk later (after I survive the finals).

Maohai
mhuang@bu-ast.bu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds)
Subject: Re: idea for non-cached mem above 16M (was Which motherboard?)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:04:33 GMT

In article <WAYNE.92Dec18091152@backbone.uucp> wayne@backbone.uucp (Wayne Schlitt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.215109.27531@klaava.Helsinki.FI> torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Torvalds) writes:
>> 
>>                                                                (thus you
>> automatically get the best performance if you do the "swapon"s by how
>> fast the device is: first ramdisk, then disk partition and then
>> swapfile).
>
>maybe I am confused, and I am _sure_ you know the details of linux
>better than I do, but will this really get you the best performance?

Sorry, I should have clarified.  I'm running a setup that generally
doesn't swap, so I use the swap-device as a kind of "emergency memory"
that seldom gets used, and never for longer periods (more like when
using xv under X11 while recompiling the kernel etc). 

Under a setup like the above, having the swap devices set up the
simplistic way (ie fastest first) is probably optimal: but you are right
in that it doesn't work very well on a system that is swapping most of
the time.  For that you'd need some way to migrate pages between
swap-devices according to how active they seem (moving old swap pages to
the slowest device etc), but I don't think that is something that I will
ever implement.  Does any existing system actually do these kinds of VM
optimizations? Does it pay off?

		Linus
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:808 comp.unix.sysv386:17390
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Re: PC-Clone UNIX Hardware Buyer's Guide
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:54:45 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <id.1SOV.762@ferranti.com>, peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:

| > Bottom line: I wouldn't try running UNIX without an FPU.
| 
| I've been doing it since 1985, on intel CPUs in boxes with the intel name on
| the front (Intel Outside?).

  Everyone knows what their time is worth. I have an FPU in every
system, and all the home systems came out of my own pocket. They are a
very small part of a system's cost percentage wise, and if you happen to
run something which needs the FPU, the raw improvement is something like
30:1. Unless you have a program which is FPU intensive you don't see
that much, of course, but I wouldn't write it off, either.

  I know people who still buy new machines with 14" mono screens, too,
but I don't recommend that, either.

-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
    Keyboard controller has been disabled, press F1 to continue.
Xref: sparky comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit:826 comp.unix.xenix.sco:3501
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Subject: Re: 386bsd and i860
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:51:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.200137.10024@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, clem1040@nova (clemens jeffrey ) writes:
|> i was wondering if anyone knows of a c compiler which works under 386bsd and
|> supports the intel i860 risc processor.  i was looking into a hauppage 4860
|> pc or a 486 with an i860 coprocessor card....and was wondering about that...
|> i figure, if you recompile the kernel and all the apps with the a compiler
|> that supports the 860, you could get workstation or better performance out
|> of this type of system..... any general comments??

How about GNU cc?  i860 support has been in there for several years.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Need SCO XENIX and PC Hardware help
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 01:51:52 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:47:49 GMT, zbig@wariat.org (Zbigniew J. Tyrlik) said:

zjt> You can get free Linux of BSD386, nad have a heck lot more of fun
zjt> with both packages - X windows, TCP/IP, NFS ( with bsd386 ), etc,
zjt> not to mention sources... Great learning tool. 

Just thought I'd point out that linux also supports NFS (with the 0.99
kernel) and as soon as we can get an IP adress from the sysadmin, and a
driver for this here e-net card, we'll let you know how it works out,
(if you're interested that is)

zjt> If you want NT, Unix, Dos on one HD - get biger one, especially if
zjt> you will start playing with sources or news....

Ah, yes, never can have too much disk space :-)

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sysv386,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.linux
From: tessier@bnr.ca (Daniel Tessier)
Subject: Re: ET4000/W32 and VESA VL-Bus
Reply-To: Daniel.Tessier@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 19:19:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.155355.7416@netcom.com>, hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:
|> In article <BzBEI1.CH@aeon.in-berlin.de> thomas@aeon.in-berlin.de (Thomas Wolfram) writes:
|> >Hi,
|> >does anyone already using the new ET4000/W32 chip, perhaps in an
|> >VESA VL local bus version? How is the performance compared with
|> >ET4000AX and does it work with XFree86 1.1?
|> >
|> >Thank you,
|> >Thomas
|> >-- 
|> >Thomas Wolfram, thomas@aeon.in-berlin.de
|> >EANTC, TU Berlin, wolf@prz.tu-berlin.de, +49 030 31421294
|> 
|> S3 is faster than the et4000 based technology the reason is because
|> of the server and its use of hardware assisted graphics functions.
|> We are about  6 times faster than an ISA et4000. In fact, it is more
|> accurate to say that XS3 can compete against your typical workstations
|> such as suns workstations. Typically an S3 801 costs less than $220(US).
|> XS3 is our X server for S3 chipsets and it runs on 386bsd and Linux.
|> 
|> XS3 has been clocked at 64k xstones on 486/33Mhz ISA machines. However,
|> our xbench complex tests are typically higher than on the sun workstation
|> ipx/gx.
|> 
|> Soon I will find out how fast is XS3 on my new 486/50Mhz VL bus with a 
|> local bus S3 801 card.
|> 
That's nice, but did it answer the question?
- "How fast is the ET4000/W32?"
- "The S3 is so fast, it'll blow Suns away"

Try to keep your preaching/propaganda for people who actually wan it.
-- 
/---------------------------------------------------------------\
| Dan Tessier		       PHONE   : (613)765-2380		|
| Bell-Northern Research, Ltd. INTERNET: Daniel.Tessier@bnr.ca 	|
| Ottawa, Ontario, Canada      UUCP    : none right now...	|
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Live and don't learn, that's us."				|
|			       - Calvin & Hobbes		|
\---------------------------------------------------------------/
From: barrett@aminet.uucp (Keith Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
Subject: Need SCO XENIX and PC Hardware help
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:37:00 GMT
Reply-To: barrett%aminet@nuconvex.com
Organization: Waterbury USENET/UUCP
X-Copyright: (c) 1992 Keith Barrett; May be distributed freely, Not for sale
X-Disclaimer: Statements expressed are not representitive of any employer
X-NewsSoftware: XRN V6.17 Amiga UNIX SVR4

I recently bought a complete XENIX V2.3.2 kit from a friend. This is the
386AT kit, but I currently have a 286AT, so I'm planning to
upgrade my system and have some questions.

1. When the documentation says that SCSI is supported on the 386GT kit
   (and not on the 386AT kit I assume), does this simply mean that
   such hardware will not be usable under XENIX, or that XENIX won't
   work on such a setup in general? Does XENIX ignore unsupported
   and/or unrecognized hardware?

2. Will this kit work "as is" on a 486 system? Which ones? I have
   no idea how "transparent" a 486 is to a XENIX 386 kernal.

3. The documentation is dated 1990, so it doesn't list a lot of computers.
   Does anyone have a "master" list? Will it work on a Gateway?

4. Although it's not listed as supported functionality in the "AT" kit,
   are there methods to allow me to access SCSI tape and CD drives anyway?

5. Will it work on an IDE drive? Will it boot? All that's mentioned is ST506
   and ESIA.

6. Will it work with Super VGA cards (in VGA mode I assume)? Which ones?

I guess I'm basically asking for configuration help in running this older
package on more modern equipment. My end-goal is to buy a 25-66mhz 386/486
system with 300+meg disk, SCSI tape and CD, ethernet, and be able to
run SCO XENIX, MS-DOS/Windows, and Windows-NT.


-- 
-kgb

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UUCP: nuconvex.com!aminet!barrett             Keep circulating the tapes - MST3k
DDN: barrett%aminet.uucp@decwrl.dec.com    // My life is my own - the prisoner
Alternate: barrett@pamsrc.enet.dec.com   \X/  Amiga 3000UX - The Next Generation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.unix.cray
From: hyatt@cis.uab.edu (Robert Hyatt)
Subject: Re: Storage of Fortran character strings on Cray
Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:35:40 GMT

In article <MRL.92Dec16094950@sun4.uai.com> mrl@uai.com (Mark R. Ludwig) writes:
>I'd appreciate information or pointers to information about how
>Fortran character strings are stored on Cray machines.  I have the
>impression that sometimes they are word-aligned, but I don't know how
>they then honor the X3.9-1978 standard which requires adjacency of
>elements of a character array.  Perhaps only the first element of the
>array is mandatorily aligned, and rest are also aligned only if the
>length of each element is an integer multiple of 8?
>

Every character variable I have used was aligned on a word boundary
since it usually follows some other data type.  I haven't tried
defining a bunch of char variables but would suspect that they are
separated by word alignment.  However, the characters within a char
variable are simply consecutive characters and not individually
aligned.  they are NOT reversed in order or anything silly like a
vax.

>Hopefully related enough to not need a separate post, can someone tell
>me what the addressability is of data on Cray machines?  What does the
>machine have to do to extract an arbitrary character from a string?
>

It has to load a word (64 bits), shift the character to the right end
and AND off the leftmost unwanted stuff.  There are no byte loads,
halfword loads, etc.  same for indexing.  Its all words.  you can
actually slow your code down by packing data like this.


>Thanks in advance.$$
>-- 
>INET: mrl@uai.com           NIC: ML255           ICBM: USA; Lower Left Coast
>"A computer is one of life's joys; it follows simple rules.  Just like
> children, adults need toys, only we like to call them 'tools.'" -- Dave Ross


-- 
!Robert Hyatt                    Computer and Information Sciences   !
!hyatt@cis.uab.edu               University of Alabama at Birmingham !
Newsgroups: comp.unix.cray