HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cgb@count0.cmhnet.org  (Charles G. Bennett)
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Reply-To: cgb@count0.cmhnet.org
Organization: BenaTong
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:56:28 GMT

In article <1992Jul19.200730.4687@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
marcu@leland.Stanford.EDU (Marc Albert Ullman) writes:
[munched]
> should be accompanied by the following conditions:
> 
> 	1) If what I contact them about turns out to be a known bug,
> 	   they inform me of that along with any known work arounds,
> 	   as estimate as to when it will be fixed, and most importantly,
> 	   they do *not* charge for the "incident".
> 
Absolutely.. The developers I know do just about anything to avoid ask_next,
we ask each other, RTFM again and again, ask the net..  and only then send a  
question to ask_next.   By the time it gets that far, the problem is usually.

A.	The documentation is wrong or misleading.
B.	It's a bug.. IE Are they going to charge for questions about
	the Text object??   1/2   :-)  (wait till you see dbkit..)
C.	It's a KNOWN bug.

> 	2) If what I contant them about turns out to be a new (i.e.
> 	   previously unreported bug), not only do they not charge me,
> 	   they *pay* me the per incident charge for *supporting them*.
> 	   After all, fair is fair.

	I agree.  Snowball in Hades chance though..
> 
> 	3) If what I contact them about is something that is not a bug but
> 	   is inadequately documented, they acknowledge it but do not
> 	   charge me for it.

	Thats the same as a bug, in my book..
> 
> 	4) If I am really being stupid, and have failed to RTFM, and 
> 	   require hand-holding to figure out what I'm trying to do,
> 	   then they charge me the per-incident fee for baby-sitting.
> 
	 Sure would cut down on non-RTFM'ing

> Item one could be somewhat revised if, as suggested earlier, NeXT would
> make available an on-line, up-to-date, database of all known bugs that
> developers and customers could search electronically before contacting
> tech support.  If such a system existed, then I feel it would be okay
> for them to charge if someone called up and asked about a bug that was
> already listed in the database and the caller simply failed to look
> for it.
> 
> I think this plan is workable and would assuage both NeXT and devels,
> since most devels will tell you that all of their problems fall into
> items 1 and 2, and NeXT's support staff will tell you that most calls
> fall into category 4.
> 
> --Marc
> 
> 	

I think this is all in preperation for the IPO...


Here's my .02   perhaps we could fund someone  (like a club) to buy full  
unlimited support and funnel ALL questions through them... Kind of a co-op  
approach.   Hell, at the rates NeXT wants to charge, someone could make a  
business out of charging a lower rate and passing the question on...

Things that make you say Hmmmmmm.


Chuck
-- 
Chuck Bennett, BenaTong Consulting
Palace Security (UNIX Consulting :-) )
cgb@count0.cmhnet.org
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Publicity in Unix Review
Date: 31 Jul 1992 15:42:38 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Jul30.151531.1455@afs.com> greg@afs.com writes:
>More evidence that NeXT is out generating PR: The September issue of Unix  
>Review has a "Tested Mettle" on the NeXTstation Turbo Color. They got most  
>of the hardware stuff right, but completely glossed over NeXTSTEP. Of  
>course, the author was just a *little* biased towards X: "with the X11  
>[eXodus] package, the NeXT can be used like any other UNIX workstation in  
>our environment, which is our definition of 'easy to use.'" He also threw  
>out the unfounded assertion that "the NeXTstep environment... is difficult  
>to learn to program." 
>
I guess Unix Review meant that it's difficult to learn to program if you want
to program using your X Window knowledge.  It's hard to figure out what else
this statement could mean.

To balance this poor assertion somewhat, the Turbo Color was given more acclaim
than it deserved when the article stated that it comes with a word processor
standard (they must not have tried to save or print anything :-) and that it
has 16-bit color, an unusual compromise between the usual 8- and 24-bit color
(they must not have realized that only 12 of those bits are color with the
other 4, transparency).

But Greg is correct: mainstream publicity is good and they didn't skewer the
Turbo Color at all.  It was a real fair hardware performance test, but not a
test of software or most of the other features that make NeXT machines special.
But it did show that NeXT's lead in price/performance is eroding significantly,
so NeXT needs to reduce the numerator and/or increase the denominator soon.
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
Email: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                                Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515
Xref: sparky comp.sys.next.advocacy:1409 comp.sys.next.programmer:5226
From: barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman)
Subject: Re: X11 must die (was Re: IRIX vs. NeXTStep).
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 02:20:09 GMT

In article <1992Jul17.152139.140501@zeus.calpoly.edu>  
mneideng@thidwick.acs.calpoly.edu (Mark Neidengard) writes:

> X11R5 will IMHO succeed because it provides all the features
> required for high-performance network graphics 

Gee, sounds good. Future looks bright for X. Say, by the
way, how many _years_ was that between R4 and R5---4 or 5?

(at the present rate, by the time we get to X11R10 we'll 
be on NeXTStep 15.0!!)


--
Barry Merriman
UCLA Dept. of Math
UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research
barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet; NeXTMail is welcome)


Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com (Michael Pizolato)
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Reply-To: Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:28:21 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.212702.23675@rathe.cs.umn.edu> gn@rathe.cs.umn.edu (Greg  
Noel) writes:
> Pity the poor users who don't get NeXTanswers.

This is probably a FAQ, but what is the easiest way to get regular updates of  
NeXTAnswers?  The only copy we have is getting old now.  If there's not a way to  
have them sent to us automatically, it would be more than sufficient for us to  
go get them manually.

Any help will be appreciated, but we're not going to pay for it ;-).

Michael

--
Michael_Pizolato@afs.com
~18 kyu
Q16
NeXTMail appreciated
From: ab@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Allen B)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:11:48 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.150446.27405@fnbc.com> lemson@fnbc.com (David Lemson)  
writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.132821.267@afs.com> Michael_Pizolato@afs.com  
> (Michael Pizolato) writes:
> > This is probably a FAQ, but what is the easiest way to get regular  
> > updates of NeXTAnswers?
> If you want to FTP them:
> sonata.cc.purdue.edu in /pub/next/docs/NeXT/92_spring_NeXTanswers.tar.Z
> 
> If you can get a mail archive site to send you that file (it's 608407  
> bytes), then you can get it via a UUCP link.

Our mail server (archive-server@nova) will split files
in parts if you're willing to uudecode them yourself.  If
you set your archiver to NeXTmail, you're at the mercy of
your email connections.  A truncated NeXTmail message
gets messed up. 

(Most of you know that sonata and nova share the disk via
NFS, so the pathnames are the same.  If you didn't, you do
now. :-) ) 

Allen B (If you can get email to me, you can get it to nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Open letter to NextDevelopers (long)(Flamebait)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 11:13:36 GMT


In article <1992Jul21.065423.1260@digifix!uunet.ca>
sanguish@digifix.com writes:

>I know about the real world.  I've been out in it for years.

Well, I'm up to 57.4 -- top that!

>and the ONLY thing that Sherwood was right about in his original post  
>was that this was Flamebait.

Seems to have caught you, too; musta worked, huh?

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: brad%raven@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca  (Brad Nelson)
Subject: Re: Open letter to NextDevelopers (long)(Flamebait)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:20:14 GMT

In article <Brpv92.Lp6@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (J.B.  
Nicholson-Owens) writes:

 [ majority of overreaction to Sherwood Botsford's "flamebait" deleted ]
 
> Overall, I'd say your views on demo programs are *way* off and a
> couple of programs even conflict with your three minute demo time
> limit.  Given your obvious lack of vision of the developer's point of
> view (and wish to make money off their work), I seriously doubt you
> administrate NeXTs in the way you claim you do.  You sound more like a

  Bzzzt.  As an attendee of the University where Sherwood works, and
a member of the same NeXT user group, I know that Sherwood is everything
he claims to be in his post.

> user who can't afford the programs you demo, so you want them to be
> free.  Whether you actually do or not, allowing one to copy creations
> from the application (basically, anything other than the creator's
> email or US Postal address), save data from the application or print
> data from the application is just plain ludicrous.

   While some of Sherwoods complaints about packaging are a bit nitpicky,
IMHO, I share most of his views.  I certainly don't believe that a demo
should be fully functional, and I think if you'd read Sherwood's post
again (with a little sedative this time?) you'll see that he doesn't
either.  Nor, in spite of your out-of-the-blue assertions, does he 
believe that all software should be free.

   I feel that if a developer gives me a demo of his program that is
crippled to the point that it won't do ANYTHING, (like a 2 minute
time limit) then the developer is sending me a message, loud and clear:

"I DON'T TRUST YOU!"

   Well, fine then.  Is this the message you really wanted me to
get in trying to sell me your software?  You didn't really believe
that two minutes was enough to send me scrambling for my checkbook,
did you?

-Brad        brad%raven@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca
From: pfkeb@kaon.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Paul Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C for other environments (long)
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:08:44 GMT
	<1992Jul22.100919.735@glocke.hotb.sub.org>
	<1992Jul24.053022.8681@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
	<1992Jul24.063330.9585@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
In-reply-to: helz@ecn.purdue.edu's message of 24 Jul 92 06:33:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.063330.9585@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> helz@ecn.purdue.edu (Randall A Helzerman) writes:

   Could you or someone elaborate on how late binding helps here?  I've been 
   developing applications in C++ for 3 years, and have never really ran into 
   a situation where late binding would have simplified the programming
   that much.  

Here's a simple example: Frequently one puts objects in a list and
then would like to send each object a message.  With ObjC late
binding, one generic List class is sufficient.  You can put an object
of any class into the NeXTSTEP List class.  For example, a list of
Views, of Windows, of nodes in a neural network, etc.  The objects
do not need to derive from the same base class. You could loop over the
list of objects with code like...

	count = [aList count];
	for( i = 0; i < count; i++ {
		anObject = [aList objectAt:i];
		[anObject doSomeThing];
	}

or ask the List object to do it for you...

	[aList makeObjectsPerform:@selector(doSomething)];

With C++, one frequently has to create a list class for each type of objects
one wants to put in a list and a list item class to contain the virtual
functions that one might use via the list.  I find this to be a pain
and seemingly needless extra work.   Of course there are features in
C++ (that ObjC doesn't have) that help with this problem.   Namely
multiple inheritence, and templates, but you still have to do the work
and plan ahead in C++ to achieve something that is very simple and
natural with Objective-C.



Randall writes further:

   The thing that scares me about late binding is how do I know that 6 months
   from now I won't send a message to an object which has no idea how to
   handle it?  Or does that never happen to anybody out there?

This kind of bug is easy to find and fix.   The default behaviour 
is for the object to print a message naming its class, the message
it could not handle, and crash.   Just fire up the debugger and one
can see exactly where the message is coming from.   One can also
easily over-ride the default behavior.   In any case this problem
has only happened to me immediately after modifying code and not
6 months later.
--
Paul F. Kunz	(NeXT mail ok)
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, Stanford University
Voice: (415) 926-2884   (NeXT) Fax: (415) 926-3587
From: khera@cs.duke.edu (Vivek Khera)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: X11 must die (was Re: IRIX vs. NeXTStep).
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:37:01 GMT
	<1992Jul22.022009.27347@math.ucla.edu>
Organization: Duke University CS Dept., Durham, NC
In-reply-to: barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu's message of 22 Jul 92 02:20:09 GMT
X-Md4-Signature: 6b20103c2eed7baef03c763fa893ac1d

In article <1992Jul22.022009.27347@math.ucla.edu> barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes:

   Gee, sounds good. Future looks bright for X. Say, by the
   way, how many _years_ was that between R4 and R5---4 or 5?

no.  it was about 2 years.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vivek Khera, Gradual Student/Systems Guy  Department of Computer Science
Internet:   khera@cs.duke.edu             Duke University
            (MIME mail accepted)          Durham, NC 27706     (919) 660-6528
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: shrydar@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Christopher Phillips)
Subject: Re: Zen Buddhist NeXTers?
Keywords: cows
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 04:17:42 GMT

sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Sam Sirlin) writes:


>In article <MPYTHON.92Jul22160127@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, mpython@goldman.gnu.ai.mit.edu (... and the flying circus) writes:
>|> >>>>> On 22 Jul 92 15:36:56 GMT, rallan@gun.com (Robb Aley Allan) said:
>|> rallan> And besides: isn't it MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!  ?
>|> erm, no... the Sacred Chao says "MU"
>What about Monkey? Wouldn't he say Wu? 

No, it's Taoists who say 'Wu'  (If i am correctly remembering my Tao of
Pooh:).  And Monkey was very Buddhist.  The only Taoist I ever saw on
the TV series was portrayed as a bit of a twisted nutter.


Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: robert@metropolis.com (Robert Munyer)
Subject: Re: Objective C for other environments (long)
Organization: Metropolis Software, Inc.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 12:45:13 GMT


In article <Brx6B3.Fw1@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
tagreen@lothario.cica.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) writes:

> In article <59219@mimsy.umd.edu> alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore) writes:

> > There is a real nice screen saver called BackSpace, it is extendable in
> > that can be extended by the user in his own environment.  The user doesnt
> > need the source to the app to write the extended module - they arent
> > compiled at the same time.

> I've written several modules for AfterDark, an extensible screen saver
> on the Mac.  I didn't have the source for AfterDark.  I didn't need
> late binding (nor would it have made the task any easier. (In this context)).

Actually, I think that what's happening here, in effect, is that you and the
authors of After Dark are agreeing to use the Mac's Resource Manager as a way
to implement a form of late binding.  You're just doing the late binding at the
system level, rather than at the language level.

Robert Munyer
robert@metropolis.com

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: smb3u@squeeg.psyc.virginia.edu (Steven M. Boker)
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Keywords: NeXT Developer Support
Organization: University of Virginia, Department of Psychology
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:04:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.184233.750@arrocha.charlotte.nc.us> roberto@arrocha.charlotte.nc.us writes:
>As a personal comment, I am disappointed in NeXT for the repeated
>discontinuation of policy, ...at the expense of early believers.
>1) OD
>2) ND
>3) Free Developer Support, after DevCamp
>4) NeXTcube (?)
>5) What's to be discontinued NeXT?
>

Perhaps Ross Perot has more influence at NeXT than we know?
Sure seems like the same style as the man on the cover of Newsweek.

Steve

-- 
 #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#
 #  Steve Boker           #             "Two's bifurcation                  #
 #  smb3u@virginia.edu    #             but three's chaotic"                #
 #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#
From: barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: X11 must die (was Re: IRIX vs. NeXTStep).
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:19:56 GMT
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department

In article <KHERA.92Jul22103701@thneed.cs.duke.edu> khera@cs.duke.edu (Vivek  
Khera) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.022009.27347@math.ucla.edu> barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu  
(Barry Merriman) writes:
> 
>    Gee, sounds good. Future looks bright for X. Say, by the
>    way, how many _years_ was that between R4 and R5---4 or 5?
> 
> no.  it was about 2 years.



Are you sure? I'd swear I was using X11R4 circa 1987-8. Didn't
X11R5 just come out (or not even come out yet)?

If X11R5 has been out awhile, I've got bad news for you: no one
seems to be too excited about upgrading to it. Strange....


--
Barry Merriman
UCLA Dept. of Math
UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research
barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet; NeXTMail is welcome)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: samurai@uriel.cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy Brockbank)
Subject: Re: Define a new platform . .  (kudos to SGI)
Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:25:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.165452.6057@leland.Stanford.EDU> peer@ccrma.stanford.edu  
(Peer Landa) writes:
> 
[ Ed M. gives thumbs up to Steve J.]

Well, I must say that it's nice to see one of the big guys
actually give credit to another one of the big guys, instead
of just calling names...

Kudos to SGI for being secure enough to say something like
that. That kind of thing only makes me respect SGI more.

- db

(Can you give me a Crimson now? See? I've been a good boy!)

(Or better yet, Hey NeXT, Hey SGI, get in bed with each other and 
produce some offspring already! Sill waiting for NeXTSTEP 4000)

--
-------
I always thought that NeXTStep was very good in its approach to color since
the tasteless are protected from their own stupidity. -- Jason Breckenridge
(I know Jason, Jason is a close personal friend of mine, and I am not Jason!)
From: eer1@midway.uchicago.edu (Paul Woods)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:00:59 GMT
Reply-To: eer1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Jul24.000403.26557@resonex.com> zenon@resonex.com (Zenon  
Fortuna) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.163142.1466@weigele.de> schnuffi.weigele.de!martin  
(Martin Weigele) writes:

[ A whole bunch 'o' stuff deleted ]
> 
> PS. I know, not everybody has access to NEWS, but in any case to arrange it
> would be LESS expensive than to rely on official support only.

A few weeks ago I read a post in one of the groups that claimed to be  
broadcasting the news over satellite.  I checked it out and this is what I  
found:
-----------------------------
The usenet is now blasted over the airwaves from sattelite.  It is possible for  
anyone who wishes to have it, to pay a one time $1,800.00 (U.S.) fee for the  
system.  This does not include post access, only read access.  The company that  
is setting up this system is called "ISS" and they can be reached at  
1-800-351-4477
1-800-227-6288
-----------------------------
I have no affiliation with this company and I don't know how well the system  
works, but I do know that it is there for the using (if you have about two  
grand burning a hole in your pocket)


Paul-
--



____________________________________
	Paul R. Woods
     University of Chicago
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: m@crito.Stanford.EDU (M Carling)
Subject: Re: Cube Owners -- Are we shut out from RISC Upgrades?
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:04:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.081147.18715@nic.umass.edu>  
a74k110@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Chris Lloyd) writes:
> In article <1992Jul28.155949.6961@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
m@crito.Stanford.EDU (M Carling) writes:
> >Don't hold your breath. What do you suppose NeXT would want to do with  
> >several thousand used cubes? Customers would be much better off putting  
an  
> >NRW on their desks and using their cubes as servers.
> 
> Relatively speaking, a current cube would probably be more akin to a
> NeXT-terminal than a server to the NRW ;-)
> 

I had in mind something like a print server, or a UUCP server, or a fax  
server, or perhaps even a file server. Obviously, a compute server is out  
of the question.

M Carling
Director, Bay Area NeXT Group
--
Bill Clinton lied to his wife. How can his country trust him?
George Bush lied to his country. How can his wife trust him?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Subject: Re: NeXT to ship128MB EO's as replacements for 3.5" drives--Nice thought?
Reply-To: jeffo@uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:50:56 GMT

nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
>I think your right, NeXT should never innovate again.  Steve should
>sell out to Bill Gates, and NeXT should adopt Windows NT.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but why can't NeXT just offer new drives
(like the CD-ROM drive) instead of replacing what they've got that is
good (like the floppy drive)?  What's wrong with offering all these
new drives as add-ons to the machine?

I think NeXT needs to learn how to be innovative without alienating
their users (as well as removing some of the flexibility of the
machine, like being able read/write IBM/NeXT/MAC-HD floppies).
-- 
-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
-- No NeXTmail please
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: RightBrain ad in Fall '92 NeXTWORLD
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 06:58:54 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.181430.29015@liveware.com> attila@liveware.com  
writes:
> 
> Hey, at a price of around 4 thousand dollars
> for a centerfold double page layout, I guess they have some dough
> to toss around.  Lets hope sales for them continue to reflect
> the advert image. ;')
> 

It cost 'em a HELL of a lot more than $4k!

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------