From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Flames
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:56:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.091426.14936@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.024508.9443@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>I dispute your claims regarding Klara Mandic.  "Proof by acquaintance"
>>among fellow Serbian chauvinists simply does not work.
>
>What is the basis of your dispute?  

Different information I've received about six months ago.  I'm searching for
this, please be patient.  

Also, circumstantial evidence: her "Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society"
is a propaganda organization formed in response to the Croatian situation,
it has precious little to do with Serbsian-Jewish friendship.  Her primary 
function is to advance Milosevic's propaganda about "fascist Croats".

>>Regarding the "Belgrade gas chamber" vs. "Belgrade gas vans", my memory
>>had played tricks on me.  But, I have corrected this, and in your
>>refusal to accept my corrections, you've made several incorrect statements
>>yourself (dare I say you are a liar?) which I'd like you to correct.
>>
>>(1) Regarding prisoners being taken from Banjica to be shot:
>>YOU SAY:
>>>In Jajinci.  Again.  And in your last posting you claimed that 20-30.000
>>>people were killed in Banjica.  So check your math.
>>             ^^^^^^
>>INCORRECT. Here is what I said:
>>
>>"Banjica", Historical Archives of Belgrade, Belgrade, 1967.
>>
>>This book clearly shows that (1) Germans were not working alone, (2) that
>>Banjica was primarily staffed by Serbs, (3) that the concentration camp was
>>funded by Belgrade municipal budget, (4) that the camp chief was Svetozar
>>Vujkovic, a Serb.  Banjica camp processed over 23,000 people many of whom
>>were Jews and children.  Many people were shot not by Germans but by
>>Serbian guards.  The prisoner lists were kept in Serbian, in cyrillic script.
>
>
>So what is the meaning of " processed?" 
>Euphemism of killing ? 

"Processed" is what happened to concentration camp prisoners.  Some were
then (indeed) killed, others were sent elsewhere to be killed, some
may have even survived the ordeal.  A camp which processed over 23,000
people is a fairly large camp.

>>(2) Regarding Serbs doing something wrong in WWII:
>>YOU SAY:
>>>Mr. Simic and I are aware, but we are not going to allow you to be 
>>>able to claim and remain unchallenged that Serbs were same as Croats
>>>in WWII.  We did what we had to do, Croats did what they wanted to do.
>>
>>INCORRECT.  I've never claimed this, in fact, I said precisely the opposite:
>>
>>Mr. Simic wrote:
>>>>	This is not to say that quisling puppet government under Milan Nedic
>>>> did nothing wrong. His gendarmerie had to be involved to some degree in
>>>> assisting the Germans in rounding up the Jews. This is clear. Yet, if we
>>>> are discussing in good-faight here, we should not mix the leading order
>>>> history with the small, Nth order effects.
>>>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>	This is the last I have to say on this question.
>>>
>>And I responded:
>>>Small?  N-th order?  Difference is clearly there, but to say that what
>>>happened in Serbia is "small" or in any sense negligible is completely wrong.
>>>
>>>My point in raising this issue is not to compare Serbian and Croatian
>>>role in the Holocaust, but to establish the fact that most Serbs have
>>>never faced this part of their history.  Failure to do so is clearly
>>>demonstrated by your statements.
>
>Mr. Loncaric.  I will find you if you insist, I have them somewhere,
>your statements about gas chamber: " both were operated by local 
>authorities. 
>So what was this if not an attempt to compare us? 

As I said, I've made a mistake on "vans" vs. "chamber": but, the main 
line of my argument (that the concentration camps in Belgrade, particularly
the largest one (Banjica) were operated by the local Serb authorities)
remains.  So the comparison is in the "existence" of this evil
rather than "magnitude" or "style".

Mr. Stojanovic, I can dig up your statements regarding 1992 in Bosnia:
you've claimed on numerous occassions that "all sides are guilty" ,
but there is a clear difference in "magnitude" and "style" of this
guilt.  Your fellow Serbian chauvinists are attacking, killing and
expelling non-Serbs by terror.

There is no doubt that Serbian forces are responsible for the carnage
in Bosnia -- and yout you continue comparing and claiming that "all
sides are guilty".  If you apply this standard, then you get the
argument I've presented: Both Serbs and Croats are guilty for their
role in the Holocaust.  Even so, I have (see above) indicated that
I do not consider their roles equivalent.

We can dontinue this personal discussion if you'd like.  But I doubt
that many people are listening.

Josip

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