HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:10:30 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:


>>Indeed. The SOTA for garden tractors is 800-900 hp out of a blown, nitro
>>burning 350 Chevy. Coupling the power to the ground in a tractor that
>>must weigh under 2000 pounds is the tricky part. Love those garden tractor
>>pulling contests. :-)

>I would like to know were you guys shop.  I work part time at Sears, the
>lawn and garden department to be precise.  The *largest* "garden" tractor
>that we sell has only 18 hp.  The majority of them are only 10hp to 12hp.

Well I call up Tube Sales here in Atlanta and order up some 4130 chrome-
molly tubing.  A quick ring to Keith Black will get me a 900 hp alky-
burning blown V-8.  Lenco makes the gearbox and Strange the rear end.
A few front suspension components from  Summit rounds out the package.
A few hours of study of the NTPA rules, a few hours of cutting and TIG welding,
and we're ready to go.  

These things are dandy for yanking a 35,000 lb sled down the track.  I'm
not so sure how it would do in the yard.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 08:43:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.202823.14351@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>: 
>: There *are* environmental problems, of course.  You can't live without
>: having *some* kind of effect on the environment (whether it's detrimental
>: or not depends on your point of view.  For instance, I doubt I would be
>: too heartbroken if mankind did something to rid the universe of mosquitos).
>
>Not to get too pedantic, but if you rid the Earth of mosquitos, you will have
>quite an impact on many species, including frogs, bats, fish (big time),
>birds, etc.  Too many people ignore the fact that there is such a thing as
>a food chain.

I am quite well aware of this.  However, most species have multiple food
sources.  Those would be diminished to whatever degree they depend on
mosquitos.  Species which depend solely on mosquitos would perish along
with the mosquitos.

But my point remains: unless ridding the world of mosquitos will cause nasty
things to happen that affect humans, few but the staunchest environmentalists
would be heartbroken if mankind got rid of mosquitos.  Most would probably
applaud the move.

Whether or not a given environmental effect is detrimental depends on your
point of view, like I said.

>Scott Linn
>scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com


-- 
				Kevin Brown

			    kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
			    kevin@taronga.taronga.com
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: stuff...
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:57:44 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1992Aug11.105759.4430@mr.med.ge.com> hinz@bonfire (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:

>What puzzles me is this:  Why are we using petrol from obviously unstable
>sources, when, with little modification, our existing fleet could use
>ethanol?  This way, our money would stay in the country, supporting our farmers,
>(corn production), we wouldn't be supporting the dictator-of-the-month,
>and we'd be breathing cleaner air.

The only thing that there would be less of would be (possibly) hydro-carbons
and CO2.  Nitric Oxides would still be a problem.  I can't remember off the
top of my head, but there are some byproducts of methanol combustion that
are particularly nasty in there own rights.

>Why aren't we doing it?  Possible reasons:

>1> Big oil companies feel threatened, as well they should.
>2> US Gummint has a problem with people making their own Ethanol.
>3> ?????????
>: 
>: 

try these
1> Methanol is substantially more expensive than oil.  In the few places
	it is used, it gets substantial government subsidies.  (Thank
	ADM for that.)

2> When you add up the life cycle energy costs of current methanol
	production, you find that using current technology, it is a net
	looser of energy.  That is, it takes more energy to plant, grow,
	harvest, and distill methanol, than you get from burning
	methanol.

Only government, or someone who grows corn for a living could love this
idea.

>--

>Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
>hinz@picard.med.ge.com
-- 
--Mark

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: eldred@rrunner.jpl.nasa.gov (Dan Eldred)
Subject: Re: Nature's Revenge (toll booths vs. cars)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:47:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.170941.2621@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bl713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lev Tarasov) writes:
>
>Instead of wasting all the time, and gasoline standing in toll-
>booth lines, as well as the cost of the toll-booths and personel,
>Doesn't it make a lot more sense to have gas taxes pay all the
>costs of maintaining our roads. The more I drive, the more gas 
>I use. No fancy math needed!

Not to mention that it creates a good incentive for manufacturers to
make and consumers to buy efficient cars.

	- Dan
From: bl713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lev Tarasov)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: stuff...
Date: 16 Aug 92 17:19:06 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


What's the difference in burning corn-based ethanol in a tractor
or in a car? The inputs to corn production include much more than
just the fuel for the tractor.
As to methanol versus ethanol, I got a bit sloppy, tree-based
bio-fuels are methanol, while the switchgrass would be used for
ethanol production.       
Sorry that I am unable to quote earlier references, but I don't 
have a local access to usenet, and as such have no screen capture
capability.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Running out of oil ->NEVER<-
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 04:13:05 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

curry@hplred.HP.COM (Bo Curry) writes:

> |(James W. Swonger)
> | (re Bo Curry's dissection of John DeArmond's DRAM parable)
> |
> | I took it as an illustration of the continued wrongness of the Authorities
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^
> |Of Gloom, a proud lineage which has brought us a litany of 'x will never
> |happen' and 'y is inevitable' pronouncements which continually turn out to
>                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^
> |be entirely wrong.
> 

>Actually, predictions by real authorities are usually more or less right.

Cite an example of major disaster predicted by the authorities  that
has come true.  

>The exceptions tend to make the news. Predictions of time scales are
>more uncertain than of basic trends. Do you remember the widespread
>predictions that deregulation of S&L's, combined with deposit insurance,
>would lead inevitably to disaster?

Actually, no I don't.  I remember a few people raising the alarm but 
certainly not widespread.  BTW, I'm still waiting for the imminent 
collapse of the banking system as has been predicted by the "authorities"
for years.  

>cost functions, to carry out business as usual while waiting for the
>next breakthrough may be a prudent strategy, or it might be the height
>of foolishness.

>Cost functions are largely political, but probabilities are "sci.".

Try that one again.  Political probabilities as science?  Hahahohohehehe.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Xref: sparky sci.energy:4080 sci.environment:10803
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Running out of oil ->NEVER<-
Date: 23 Aug 92 09:42:18 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1372@eouk8.eoe.co.uk> dhembrow@eoe.co.uk (David Hembrow) writes:
>
>It doesn't matter if the oil is burnt in our lifetime or over a 1000
>years, the carbon still gets into the atmosphere and makes the air
>worse.
>
>This is why I am for leaving the oil which we know exists right where it
>is, unless someone can come up with a clean way of using it up ( I doubt
>this, you get CO2 from it any way you burn it ).
>
>The real solution to all this is to burn fuel made from plants. This can
>be wood, ethanol made from your favourite plant. Any will do ( though we
>might want to leave the forests alone ).
>
>If you burn plants then the CO2 will get re-absorbed and keep going around
>in a cycle. That's OK.

Uh, David, how do the plants know? Is the CO2 from biomass somehow tagged
in a way that CO2 from fossil is not? Otherwise, X amount of CO2 produced
by burning, Y amount of CO2 consumed by plants. It doesn't matter if X comes 
from fossil or biomass, the plants can't tell the difference. The important
question for CO2 stabilization is whether X<=Y. If X is smaller than Y, no 
matter what the source of X, CO2 levels go down. If X is larger than Y, CO2 
levels go up. Since we're unlikely to massively increase production of plants, 
they already grow nearly everywhere they can, and other factors like water and 
nitrates and phosphates limit their growth, Y isn't going to get significantly 
bigger. Thus we have to limit X from whatever source, we don't care which
one.

Oil is just stored biomass, biomass is just stored solar energy, solar
energy is just nuclear energy, why not just cut out the middlemen?

Gary
Xref: sparky sci.energy:3981 sci.environment:10653
From: jws@billy.mlb.semi.harris.com (James W. Swonger)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Why isn't Europe using alternative fuels? (was Re: Running out of oil)
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:00:15 GMT
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne FL


 I believe Europe has higher population densities and smaller reserves of
natural gas (and farmland for biofuels and sunshine too except maybe Spain).
This makes the common (US) alternatives to gasoline and diesel less
available and attractive (my guesstimation) in Europe.
-- 
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons  #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#
From: mahonj@swift.cs.tcd.ie
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: <None>
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:46:14 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Trinity College Dublin

> This exchange caused me to ponder:  Doesn't Europe already have $4/gallon
> and $6/gallon gasoline (about $1/litre and $1.5/litre) ?  If so, isn't
> it fair to estimate that this reflects higher internalization of 
> externalities?  And if that is so:
> 
> Where are the wholesale conversions to alternative fuels?

People in Ireland (where petrol is $4.50 / Imperial gallon) use :

Smaller cars,
Manual (stick shift) cars,
Diesel cars.

They also drive less.  The notion of driving 60 miles to work is rather
alien over here.  Many people that have to do a lot of milage (reps,
taxis) use diesels.

That's it.  No big secrets.  A little bottled gas, but this was really only
popular as a method of ensuring supply during the rationing of 1979 etc.

> 
> So what's the deal?  Are ALL fuels taxed to the gills, thus distroying
> the incentive to convert?  

Most are, as all are imported (except natural gas).
People are discouraged to convert, but not to conserve.

> I know the people there are bright enough and creative enough to 
> make the conversions (They came up with some dillys in the World Wars.
> The French use 'gasogenes' to use charcoal for car fuel.  The Swedes
> used a similar technology to run their cars on wood.  The British had
> these giant gas bags for NG on the bus roofs. etc.)
> 
> So where are the methanol VWs and methanol 'gas' stations on the Autobahn?
> 
The germans have loads of money and can (currently) afford to drive at > 100
mph on the Autobahns, but the poorer countries simply use smaller cars, or
diesel.

	James Mahon,
	Vision and Sensor Unit,
	Trinity College
	Dublin,
	Ireland.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Date: 16 Aug 92 23:32:33 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:

>I would like to know were you guys shop.  I work part time at Sears, the
>lawn and garden department to be precise.  The *largest* "garden" tractor
>that we sell has only 18 hp.  The majority of them are only 10hp to 12hp.

	You're shopping at the wrong place.  My garden tractor is 165bhp,
but I have a fairly large garden.  The minimum I'd take in a garden
tractor is 45bhp, and even then it's a pain to use for lack of power.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:12:37 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <14176@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:

>knoche@desert-rat.West.Sun.COM (Bill Knoche SUN Phoeni) writes:

>> Even a white car with window shades and tinted windows can easily attain an
>> interior temperature of over 200F.

>Yes, if you seal the car.  Those solar-powered fans look like a good idea,
>possibly keeping the car relatively close to external air temperature.

Not even close.  In order to keep the car anywhere near ambient you would
need to completely exchange the cars air volume somewhere on the order of
once every minute or two.  A fan that powerful would take up the whole
window and the entire upper surface of your car would have to be covered
with solar panels in order to power it.

>> The goal is to bring the temperture down from as much as 100F above ambient
>> to 80F. Even my powerful new car (White) takes 20 minutes at freeway speeds
>> to get down to 80F on a clear sunny day with an ambient of 110F.

>If the car was designed for staying cool--painted white, windows coated,
>insulated body, active venting, etc--it shouldn't be that difficult to cool and
>keep cool.  That shouldn't even incur significant additional cost (maybe a
>saving).  Choosing not to do that, relying on a powerful A/C unit instead, is a
>luxury.

Adding a significant amount of insulation to a car, would make the car
wider, taller and heavier.  This would reduce the mileage of your car year
round.  On a year round basis you would probably burn a lot more gas with
your heavily insulated car, than you would by running a slightly bigger
air conditioner in the summer.  BTW, I believe I've read that approximately
90% of the air conditioner load comes from the windows.  Tinting the
windows dark enough to make a significant difference would also make those
windows difficult to see out of.

I am glad to see that you have changed your tune a little bit.  In your
original post you claimed that air conditioners were a luxury, now its
only the oversized air conditioners that you have a problem with.

BTW, on my car I only loose about 3 mpg when I run the air conditioner,
which is only 7% or 8%.
>--

>Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
-- 
--Mark

Xref: sparky sci.energy:4066 sci.environment:10782
From: dhembrow@eoe.co.uk (David Hembrow)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Running out of oil ->NEVER<-
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:34:20 GMT
Organization: EO Europe Limited, Cambridge, UK
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

I don't know if anyone else has thought about this the same way as me, I
don't really think it is all that important whether we are about to run
out of oil or not. I think it is likely that we can continue to find
more oil for some considerable time, synthesize it from something else,
or whatever.

I think the problem is that whatever we burn, we are increasing the
amount of carbon dioxide ( and other stuff too ) in the air. I don't
see any way that putting back all the carbon which was in the air a few
millions of years ago isn't going to leave us with a similar climate to
that which existed then. Is that what we want ?

If it is thought that burning the supplies of oil which exist will have
no bad effect on us then I don't know that it's a problem to do so. I
don't agree. The air where I live is not as bad as in larger cities,
but it does smell.

It doesn't matter if the oil is burnt in our lifetime or over a 1000
years, the carbon still gets into the atmosphere and makes the air
worse.

This is why I am for leaving the oil which we know exists right where it
is, unless someone can come up with a clean way of using it up ( I doubt
this, you get CO2 from it any way you burn it ).

The real solution to all this is to burn fuel made from plants. This can
be wood, ethanol made from your favourite plant. Any will do ( though we
might want to leave the forests alone ).

If you burn plants then the CO2 will get re-absorbed and keep going around
in a cycle. That's OK.

David.

doug@UC780.UMD.EDU (Deac Moo of the UGC) writes:
: In article <jc#nrj@dixie.com>, jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
: 
: >Does anyone get the idea the same thing is happening with oil?  While
: >the "experts" prattle on about only a decade's worth of "proven reserve"
: >remaining, the oil types, ignorant to a person, just keep on inventing
: >new ways to find and recover oil.  Amazin' what you can do when you
: >don't know any better.
: 
: Al Gore and the Club of Doom, er Rome have to have some reasons to peddle 
: their philosophies.
: 
:                                ******
:    Net postings: Demonstrating the lack of quality psychotherapy in the world.
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Running out of oil ->THIS DECADE<-
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:39:18 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

>The Saudis can turn on a BIG valve for 3 billion bbl/year and not
>notice much other than more money for toys.  Again:  Why do you
>think Bush is being so cozy with Saudi, Kuwait, UAR, ...

>Simple supply and demand elasticity models WILL give the wrong
>answer here.  Look to Oligopoly, Monopoly, and Monopsony, Oligopsony
>models of pricing structure.  Then ask yourself two questions:
>1)  Who has the best Army in the world that money can buy?
>2)  Who wants to buy that Army to keep themselves safe, powerful, and rich?

Same bunch who got an up-front&personal look at Stealth bombers, PAVE missiles,
FLIR, Patriots, Apaches.  I'm sure the lesson was not lost on the sheep
hearders that those things work against whomever we tell 'em to.  Funny
how quiet OPEC has been since that little expedition.  

To the whiners:  Yep, I'm imperialist to the bone.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Running out of oil ->NEVER<-
Date: 21 Aug 92 08:44:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: techbook.1992Aug21.084439.3981
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 644-8135

In article <jc#nrj@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

>Does anyone get the idea the same thing is happening with oil?  While
>the "experts" prattle on about only a decade's worth of "proven reserve"
>remaining, the oil types, ignorant to a person, just keep on inventing
>new ways to find and recover oil.  Amazin' what you can do when you
>don't know any better.

No need to celebrate ignorance.  The oil companies employ far more experts 
I do wonder, though, why we hear so often from "experts" outside the
field and so seldom from those actually working in the field.  Sure,
they're busy doing their jobs, but IMHO they also have a duty to 
educate the public about what is going on, instead of leaving us at
the mercy of various activists and muck-raking journalists.


-- 
szabo@techbook.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400, N81)
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Why isn't Europe using alternative fuels? (was Re: Running out of oil)
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:53:15 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Aug18.203829.11907@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.023813.28004@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bl713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lev Tarasov) writes:

>>If all the external costs of fossil usage were included 
>>in the price, then the economic system would encourage the develop-
>>ment of alternatives at a more appropriate time. 
>
>A minor quible, the alternatives are already 'developed', they just
>need to be implimented.  You can go out today and buy conversions to 
>run you vehicle on {electricity, CNG, Propane, Methanol, Ethanol, etc.}
>off the shelf.  You can add solar heat and electricity to your 
>house today, off the shelf.  

This exchange caused me to ponder:  Doesn't Europe already have $4/gallon
and $6/gallon gasoline (about $1/litre and $1.5/litre) ?  If so, isn't
it fair to estimate that this reflects higher internalization of 
externalities?  And if that is so:

Where are the wholesale conversions to alternative fuels?

If *I* was paying $4/gallon, I'd have put a CNG kit on my car and 
a propane kit on my truck some time ago.  I'd be looking at that
$1.50/gallon methanol and blending it at a rate of 20% into my
gasoline on day one...

So what's the deal?  Are ALL fuels taxed to the gills, thus distroying
the incentive to convert?  Are the alternatives unavailable in Europe?
I know the people there are bright enough and creative enough to 
make the conversions (They came up with some dillys in the World Wars.
The French use 'gasogenes' to use charcoal for car fuel.  The Swedes
used a similar technology to run their cars on wood.  The British had
these giant gas bags for NG on the bus roofs. etc.)

So where are the methanol VWs and methanol 'gas' stations on the Autobahn?

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: hinz@picard.med.ge.com (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987)
Subject: Re: Air conditioning not a luxury....
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 11:41:20 GMT

Bo Curry (curry@hplred.HP.COM) wrote:

: P.S. I have never had air conditioning in my car, even during
: the 7+ years I lived in and about Atlanta. The claim that A/C
: is a "necessity" is, quite simply, wrong.

In other words, you have been _harming_ the environment by wasting more
gasoline, due to the parasitic drag induced by having your car's windows
open.  

Ah, the misguided do-gooder.  Perhaps the worst kind.

--

Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
hinz@picard.med.ge.com


Newsgroups: sci.energy