HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin)
Subject: Re: Ar-234's disapearing guns.
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:06:33 GMT

{Foggy Memory Warning... will check ref when I get home (of course, they
never let me out of here :-) )}
The Blitz {methinks} had a fixed, rearward firing 'scare' gun(s?) in the
tail that the pilot could try to aim with a periscopic mirror sight.
Ineffective, I'd imagine, as was the similar arrangement in some Do-17s.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Corvin 	      PP-ASEL, PP-G		zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com
just another spaced rocket scientist at    Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===============    My views, not Martin Marietta's   ========================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin)
Subject: Re: P51s are Shiny Metal
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:47:07 GMT

The weight reduction was the biggest gain achieved by removing the
camoflage paint from the fighters and bombers, as has been mentioned.
The bare aluminum also gave a small drag reduction compared to the
matt paint and, compounding this, was easier to keep clean.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Corvin 	      PP-ASEL, PP-G		zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com
just another spaced rocket scientist at    Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===============    My views, not Martin Marietta's   ========================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cwilliam@testament.bbn.com (Chris Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Why didn't Luftwaffe paint propeller tips, Part 2
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:56:52 GMT
Reply-To: cwilliam@testament.bbn.com. (Chris Williams)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com


I originally posted:

> Anybody know?  I've looked at thousands of photos of WWII aircraft, and
> it appears that the Luftwaffe is the only air force that didn't paint
> some sort of bright warning color on their propeller tips.
> 
> Later in the war, this might make sense as better comouflage while on
> the ground.  But there were no painted tips even in the early air-
> supremacy stages of the war.
> 
> Could this be a cultural thing?  Might the practice have originated only
> with those countries that had carrier aviation, where there would be a
> greater risk of walking into a prop on a crowded carrier deck?

The discussion so far seems to be getting off track.

Yellow tips painted on the propeller blades have absolutely nothing to do
with personalized markings, in my opinion.  They are a safety feature--
they allow a person standing on the ground near the plane to see the
outside diameter of the prop while it is spinning, presumably so that they
will not get too near as they do their ground mechanic kind of tasks.
Without yellow tips, a spinning prop may become invisible depending on how
fast it's spinning.  A friend of a friend of a friend... once told me of
seeing a person walk into a spinning prop while he was in the RAF- horrifying.
I am sure that to paint or not to paint the prop tips is not a decision
that an air force leaves up to the individual pilot.

I would not place this aspect of aircraft marking in the same category as
sharkmouths, girlie paintings, or patriotic slogans.  Every air force in
WW II had some sort of this kind of marking, some more than others (as has
already been pointed out).

Another way of asking my question (although over-simplified) would be:
Why wasn't the Luftwaffe concerned that people might walk into props, while
every other WWII air force seems to have taken measures to prevent this??

By the way, it doesn't have to be yellow-- some Japanese WWII planes had
white-red-white tips, indicating (I think) a great deal of thought on this
matter.

Chris...still curious.
From: megazone@obsidian.WPI.EDU (MegaZone23)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: F-22 Question
Date: 11 Jan 1993 12:58:40 GMT
Organization: WPI USAF -- United Society of Animation Fans
NNTP-Posting-Host: obsidian.wpi.edu

In article <1993Jan10.125038.29928@admiral.uucp> dave@admiral.uucp (Dave Litchman) writes:
>Demise? I remember seeing a news item (with footage of the incident) in which
>the landing gear of the F-22 collapsed upon touchdown. Is this what you're
>talking about? It didn't look too bad...

If only that were the truth...

The sole flying YF-22 crashed on a touch and go... The aircraft hit with
the gear up and slid along the runway, catching fire. The pilot climbed out
with minor injuries, but the aircraft was destroyed. With the damage already
extensive it was decided to let the airframe burn under supervision to
assess the burn characteristics...

The other YF-22 was already rendered non-airworthy by use in ground testing.
So the next F-22 to fly will be the first production aircraft, supposedly
in 1995.

>The Discovery Channel's "Wings" did a show on the Valkyrie. They showed  
>footage of the accident, although I think the camera was not trained 
>directly on the Valkyrie when the plane got hit. But you get a pretty good 

One of the books in Time-Life's Epic of Flight has frames from the film.
Immediately before the impact and just after with the fireball and
disintegrating F-104.... I forget which book, and they're still boxxed up
in my room...

###############################################################################
# I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity.  Use your mind, think! #
#Email megazone@wpi.wpi.edu  Moderator, WPI anime FTP site 130.215.24.1 /anime#
###############################################################################
From: elf@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Need info on SR-71 video
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:25:14 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know of a good VHS video on the SR-71? 
I am a member of A.I.A.A. and at one of our meetings we saw a rather long
video on the SR-71 (approx 75 mins). Any info will be appreciated. 

Thanks,
Eric



Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers)
Subject: Re: F-15E Performance
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
	<BOWERS.93Jan4143256@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>
	<1993Jan7.175713.12922@infonode.ingr.com>
	<1ij4mjINN2g3@bigboote.WPI.EDU>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:53:58 GMT

In article <1ij4mjINN2g3@bigboote.WPI.EDU> megazone@obsidian.WPI.EDU (MegaZone23) writes:

>In article <1993Jan7.175713.12922@infonode.ingr.com> bishopjl@infonode.ingr.com (John L Bishop) writes:
>>racks) with no other fuel tanks or ordinance, then is this a reasonable speed?

>No... *dust of cobwebs*... I recall that the F-15C configured for combat,
>4 Sparrow, 4 Sidewinder, gun rounds, 50% fuel, has a >1:1 thrust ratio. It
>can most definately break Mach with burner. Actually, in level flight a
>loaded F-15C can break Mach 2 in most of it's operational altitudes, but
>that means burner and lots of fuel used... I believe the trivia answer is
>an F-15C at full burner will use al its fuel in 7 minutes...

Hmmmm, acording to the literature I have (unclassified open literature
stuff) the Streak Eagle (talk about the original stripper clean F-15)
is capable of Mach 2.5 only between 45,000 and 62,000 feet.  At 30k,
it will only go Mach 2.0.  And that is with _no_ stores.  Not even
Sparrows.  Now the A models were a bit slower than that, and the C
models quite a bit slower.  I can only imagine what a B or D or E
model would be like.

Also, the ability to get rid of a rack is a requirement, if a bomb
load can't release on one side, the procedure is to pickle off the
racks (assymmetric loads are not fun in a real shooting environment).
This actually happens with some regularity, read John Trotti's
"Phantom Over Vietnam" or Fred Blesse's "Check Six".

>Another thing, the FAST packs actually REDUCED the drag, and the pylons
>on an F-15 are almost never discarded. Most of they hardpoints on the F-15E
>are permanent, part of the body/FAST packs...

Which drag did FAST Packs decrease?  I quote (again from my open lit
source):

"...the F-15 with these conformal FAST PACKs has the same subsonic
cruise drag as the total F-15 is without them..."  Transonic wave drag
(due to high Mach numbers close to and exceeding 1.0) will go up.

Open lit source: "McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle" by James Perry
Stevenson, ISBN 0-8168-0604-7.

--
Al Bowers                       bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov
NASA F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle, Lead Aero
NASA, Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, California
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: mckinney@athena.mit.edu (Ethan L Mckinney)
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:24:41 GMT

So Dave, I know of two other supersonic-at-max-military-power jets:  English
Electric (later BAC) Lightning, and the F-4 (only when brand-new, less than half
fuel, and perfectly clean -- not even pylons.  The Mirage II did it also, but it
was a prototype, and the larger Mirage III lost the capability.  Any others?
  BTW, if you're engaged, excess power is going to be pretty useless in evading a
missile.  Instantaneous turn rate and electronic fit are likely to be much more
important.  Decoys, Decoys, DECOYS!!!

					E
From: rocky.rawlins@the-matrix.com (Rocky Rawlins) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: RE: THE A-10
Date: 6 Jan 93 08:03:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The MATRIX BBS - Birmingham, AL - 205-323-2016
Reply-To: rocky.rawlins@the-matrix.com (Rocky Rawlins) 

-> They already tried this with the P-51, a.k.a. "Piper Enforcer" in the
-> early 1980's.  It was a magnificent flop.  Not nearly the combat
-> survivability of the Hawg, nor the weapons platform stability.  It
-> had an excellent loiter time over target,{and looked like a real
-> badass camuflaged, turboprop Mustang, but that was about all it had
-> going for it.

True. But a failure of one implementation of a concept does not
invalidate the concept.
                                        Rocky
From: aapo@niksula.hut.fi (A.J. Heijola)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Best fighterpilot ?!?!
Date: 9 Jan 93 10:45:38 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland


  
     > 
     >                      ===============================
     >                       Most successful fighter pilot
     >                            of all times ?!?!
     >                      ===============================
     >
     > One possible answer is Hasse Wind from Finland.Wind was a member of the
     > volontary defence-organisation "skyddsk}ren".He joined the army and became
     > officer after graduating from school in Eken{s 1938.

      <some deleted>

     > The official number of planes that Wind shot down is 75.But he claims that he
     > shot down about 100 planes.
     > 
     > Wind is less known than Jonny Johnson (38 planes),Richard Bong (40) and
     > Pierre Clostermann (33).

Official numbers are drops that could be varified by somebody else.
Therefore it is likely that 100 planes would be closer to the real
number.
However there is yet another fighter pilot from Finland, who has
an even higher number of drops; Flight Master Jutilainen.
For some reason he isn't known even in Finland, whereas Hasse Wind
is known to most of the population.


   Anyone got a count of how many Germans scored over 100?   Eric Hartman 
   holds the all-time high of 352 (I think), of which 8 were against the 
   Anglo-Americans, the rest aginst the Soviets (from a memory of long 
   ago).

It is true that a couple of German fighter pilots from WWII do have
impressive "scores", but that is partly due to the tactics used.
In order to get great fighter-aces with high shot-down-numbers
fighters went on missions together in larger groups where most
of the fighters were just watching the backside for the best pilot, so
that they could get a nice number of kills.  Also in cross-fire drops
the score was allways marked for the ace.  All this was done to
make good propaganda.  Imagine what an effect it has when all
the people here is like: .... and Hartman has scored his 157th
victory.......

Aapo Heijola 
Department of Computer Science
Helsinki University of Technology
Finland
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Subject: Re: American kill...
Reply-To: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:53:36 GMT

In article <BOWERS.92Dec29102716@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:
>
>Hmmmm.  I don't think F-16s are capable of carrying AIM-7s, much less
>AIM-120s.  That was the big disadvantage of using the F-16 as an
>interceptor (and the reason for their no kills in the Gulf War, until
>now).
>

One night, at a closed fast food restaurant, a guy in a pickup truck
saw my logbook (I was planning on taking it in to make some entries) and
inquired if I was a pilot.  He then introduced himself as a Marine
Colonel who teaches night flying skills and tactics to just about
everybody (USN, USMC, USAF, Top Gun, Red Flag, etc.).

He also told me that he flew just about every fighter in the inventory
(F-14s, 15s, 16s, 18s, A-4s, etc.)

Anyway, he said that "in the field" the technicians can get "pretty clever"
and you could probably find RADARs and fire control systems on birds
that never left the factory that way.  Dunno about this specific case,
but the instance given above certainly would not have surprised him.

Kerry
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Ultrasecret (Enigma) 
From: byrnes@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:48:30 +1000
Distribution: world
Organization: Aust. Dept. Health, Housing and Community Services
Keywords: ENIGMA NSA SPOOKS
Summary: ENIGMA NSA SPOOKS

In article <93004.212754VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu>, <VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> Jim Feeney asked about radar vs.  code-breaking in the Battle of Britain.
> 
> Here, briefly is what I've read:
> 
> According to _The Ultrasecret_, by Winterbotham (an RAF Wing Commander or
> Group Captain personally involve):
> 
> Some poles working in Germany deduced their factory was making code
> (actually, cipher) machines, called "Enigma." They smuggled out all the
> parts, which were sent to Britain.  At a country house called Bletchley, a
> group went to work to exploit this incredible intelligence coup.
> 
etc etc 
 
> I'm uncertain about this, but I think it may have been an Enigma machine
> that the Brits gave us (the Germans having supplied the Japanese) that
> enable us to read the message that enabled the fleet to ambush the Japanese
> at Midway.  Perhaps someone else can clarify this.
> 
> There is a huge literature on the subject of ciphers and codes, and the
> people who invented them and broke them; and it is fascinating.
> 
>                                 vince norris,  penn state u.

Perhaps one of the spooks from the NSA (who probably have their systems set-up
to monitor Internet traffic) could materialise and post a learned reply: after
all, who would know more than them about Enigma and its successors?

Steven Byrne,
DHHCS,
Canberra. Australia
From: gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kennedy)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Trivia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:29:07 CST
Organization: Ham Radio Operator, Houston Tex.

 Let's see if there are any military aviation trivia buffs lurking 
out there :-). Two interesting trivia "firsts".

1. What was the first (perhaps only) supersonic jets fighter to 
demonstrate the ability to fly with it's wings folded! (Hint. No 
less than seven recorded, or.. er... admitted, cases including two 
with full combat loads).

2. The first helicopter gunship (or particular model) equiped as a 
"night fighter" gunship.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI - 
                      gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: jrk@nittany.tcs.com (John Koper)
Subject: Air Combat Lingo questions
Followup-To: rec.aviation.military
Organization: Teknekron Communications Systems Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 23:29:04 GMT

I saw the cockpit-footage of the F-16 shooting down the Iraqi MIG
and had a few questions about the lingo used by the pilot:

1) "Fox #" : where # is 1, 2, etc.
	- I know that Fox signifies missile, what does the number signify.
	  Is it the number of missiles fired from a specific plane or is
	  a type of missile (e.g. 1 = AMRAAM, 2 = Sparrow, etc.)?

2) "Got Tone"
	- The newscaster said that this indicated that the missile had
	  been launched but I thought it was that the missile had locked
	  onto the target.  If it is "locking on", is it the plane or
	  the missile that locks on?  Can the missile pick up the target
	  while still attached to the plane or does the plane dump the
	  missile guidance info just before being launched?

3) "Splash"
	- Does this signify that the missile has hit the plane or that
	  the plane has crashed?

ADVthanksANCE,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Koper				| jrk@tcs.com
Software Engineer			| 2121 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA 94704
Teknekron Communications Systems, Inc.	| (510) 649-3592
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: mppd5@syma.sussex.ac.uk (John Coley)
Subject: Re: Best fighterpilot ?!?!
Organization: University of Sussex, five miles away from Brighton
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:06:23 GMT


	How come noones been including night fighter pilots in these
kill lists ?? Several british pilots (and I'm sure MANY German) exceeded
the 5 kill level.

	John Coley
From: kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: P51s are Shiny Metal
Date: 4 Jan 1993 16:34:00 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: questor.sw.stratus.com


On the topic of WWII fighters.  I always see p51s (in movies,
documentaries, models, pictures, museums, etc.) with an unpainted,
polished metal finish.  Most other fighter planes of that era, appear
painted (I seem to remember seeing some p-38s and p-47s shiny though).
Most of the navel planes are painted blue which makes sense.  A lot of
the fighters (p-40, spit, etc) are painted though.  Does anyone know
the criteria they used for deciding whether to paint a plane and what
color?
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Maybe he's just a little insane, like painters or composers."
							-Miracle on 34th Street
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:48:28 GMT
Subject: MiG29 on TV
Organization: the HP Mtn.View Resp. Cntr.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

Anyone see 60 minutes re: defector pilot (forgot his name) who flew
to Turkey and now living in US?  What really struck me was the way 
his countrymen still treat him.  He was shown with Mike Wallace near
a Mig29 (Ukrainian from the markings) (I should also say Former Countrymen)
and the Mig29 crew wouldnt let the defector near the plane.. he apparently
is still considered a traitor even by the Ukrainian pilot.  

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, why would they consider him a 
traitor?  It seems to me he led the way in showing his displeasure with
a regime that lied to its people, killed innocents and generally were
"the evil empire"....

Is this the feeling of the Ukrainian people, or just a few disgruntled
military pilots who feel the breakup of the USSR in some way has 
compromised their personal career?   

I believe the Mig29 was on tour here in the US...obviously they wont
let the defector back on former Soviet soil... 

I would consider this man's exploits as heroic considering what he 
did to get out... there was a lighter side to the story.. in attempt
to get past his fellow pilots, he claims he baked a cake for them 
spike with barbituates...they fell asleep later...he then had to 
overpower a sentry who broke his thumb and put a bullet into his
shoulder... Probably would make a good movie except that his 
cunning escape didnt allow pursuit by the Soviet Air Forces.. 

Anyone in the Ukraine that reads this..could you give the rest of
us how the people in the former SU feel about this pilot and other
defectors?

The Mig29 was not forwarded to the US for inspection by Turkish 

officials due probably to international law (rats!) but the US
apparently was provided with valuable information about tactics
which possibly might have saved Allied pilot's lives in the 
Persian Gulf War.  

Thanks.  

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
From: sents@dixie.com (Jeff Sents)
Subject: Re: Need info on SR-71 video
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 00:19:17 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

elf@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>Does anyone know of a good VHS video on the SR-71? 


 Lockheed made a 1 hr SR-71 movie about 5 years ago entitled 'Blackbird'.
This may have been the movie you saw. It's a fictional account of some
generic 'incident' somewhere, that shows the planning and execution of
a mission. The plot was pretty hokey, but it had outstanding footage.
As I recall the film won several awards.

 I believe Lockheed is still selling copies at the employee's store. The
cost was about $25 three years ago when I got my copy, but it may have 
come down some. If you like I can check and see if they still have any.

Regards,
Jeff

***************************************************************************
* Jeff R. Sents                           *                               *
* Marietta, Georgia, USA                  *    Never Trust Programmers    *
* home: sents@dixie.com                   *    Who Carry Screwdrivers!    * 
* work: ge03429@loads1.lasc.lockheed.com  *                               *
***************************************************************************
#include <stdsclmr.h>
<This message contains only the opinions & beliefs of its author, 
which in no way represent those of anyone else.>
From: rocky.rawlins@the-matrix.com (Rocky Rawlins)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: RE: RE: BEST FIGHTERPILOT
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:55:00 GMT
Reply-To: rocky.rawlins@the-matrix.com (Rocky Rawlins)
Organization: The MATRIX BBS - Birmingham, AL - 205-323-2016

-> Not trying to open a new bucket of worms here, but it should be
-> pointed out that Chuck DeBellevue at the time of his six credited
-> kills was not a pilot. Although he later went through pilot training,
-> in 1972 he was an F-4 Weapons Systems Officer (WSO). The policy of
-> crediting kills for a two-place aircraft was to award a single kill
-> to both of the aircrew.  This is not meant to take anything away from
-> DeBellevue, Jeff Feinstein or Willie Driscoll; a kill is a kill. But
-> as the discussion heading is 'Fighter Pilots,' it's a technicality
-> that some might not be aware of.

And then of course there is the purported kill by Lindbergh in WWII when
he was working with the Marines in the South Pacific as a civilian
contractor teaching fuel conservation techniques.
                                        Rocky
                                                          
From: chrisd@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Chris Douglas)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:48:05 GMT
Subject: Curtis A-3B Flacon
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA