HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: RE: Paglia (again)
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:42:30 GMT



hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu (Heather Henderson) writes:

> The fact is, men rape, and women are in danger.  

I find the generality of this statement offensive.


Mark
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 01:22:38 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

michael bruce macdonald writes:
(in repsonse to Ron Hogan)

>>Certainly one doesn't need to know the sordid
>>details of Foucault's life to discuss his theories: they may *amplify*
>>that discussion, but don't provide the essence of the debate.  That's

>I don't appreciate your calling the details of Foucault's life "sordid" just
>because he happened to be gay . . . Or are you referring to something else?

>michael mcdonald

I was not referring to his homosexuality in general, but the pattern of
casual sex in bathhouses.  I would have used sordid if he was having sex
with women in the same pattern of behavior.

Ron Hogan
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 11 Jan 1993 20:03:00 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

pas@kepler.unh.edu (Paul A Sand) writes:

>Given Roger's previous comment of "Sieg heil to you too, pal," I think
>it's obvious that he's far less interested in serious discussion than
>is Mike Morris.

Having been on usenet for 10 years, I think I can add
some insight here.

The fact that Roger came up with a "Sieg heil" comment has
absolutely no bearing on whether he is serious about the
discussion.  It simply means his comments must be
calibrated differently than, for example, Mike Morris's.

Now if *Morris* had said "Sieg heil, buddy" to a fellow netter,
that would be probably a once per decade event, and I would be
tempted to believe he had finally lost his generally excellent grasp 
on logic and crossed over into the realm of the emotional.
But coming from Roger, I view it simply as colorful interjection.

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:14:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.181339.13514@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>Mike Godwin writes:
>
>Hmmm. Does the fact that one requires *something* to listen to a record,
>tape, or CD mean that our culture is divided into the music poor and the
>music rich?
>
>	Yes.

I disagree. The technologies necessary for hearing music are cheap and
ubiquitous. I see no reason that reading technologies could not be.

>	I've observed the populist aspects of technology, I just think
>	that there might be periods of "information poverty" for many
>	people until things shake out some more.

I agree about this. But in the scheme of things, shakeouts that take, say,
50 years to occur are still pretty short. I assume that when we talk about
relative access to information, we are talking about the longer term.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:45:08 GMT

Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: loosemore-sandra@cs.yale.edu (Sandra Loosemore)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 10 Jan 1993 15:40:32 -0500
Organization: staff hacker @ Yale Haskell project
Distribution: rec
	<1993Jan10.200424.24455@ecrc.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: functor.systemsz.cs.yale.edu
In-reply-to: sanjiva@ecrc.de's message of Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:04:24 GMT

sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:

   There are heaps of books about life in residential Public Schools.

Don't forget Delderfield's "To Serve Them All My Days" in this genre.

-Sandra
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: another Atlanta rabfest
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:55:57 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

BTW, I highly recommend Meg as a companion for book browsing.


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000.gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:10:27 CST
From: Cole Kendall <U48073@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)

In article <1ik3qbINNe4n@transfer.stratus.com>, jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
(Jim Mann) says:
>
>But Johnson wasn't criticizing them for "exploring the mud."  He
>condemned many of them for treating the people around them
>like crap (the section on Brecht made my skin crawl).
>
The chapter that most affected me was the story of Rousseau and his
numerous offspring who were sent off to the "orphanage" where
they undoubtedly died of starvation before the age of 10.
I cannot listen to someone speak of Rousseau's vision of society
and the social contract without retching.

Cole Kendall
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Standards in Journalism (was: The Wall Street Journal (was: 1992 in Review))
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:39:25 GMT

In article <C0HLCE.648@NeoSoft.com> claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.192353.10105@speedy.aero.org> nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:
>>But the major reason I get the WSJ, rather than another newspaper, is that
>>it seems to be the only newspaper left in the U.S. which has some standards
>>of literacy for its reporters.  The NY Times has declined seriously in
>>the past few years and, while local news is of some importance, I get all
>>I really need from listening to the radio on the way to and from work.

>			.
>Thanks; I thought I was the only one who noticed.
>By my rough memory, the spell-checking in the *WSJ*
>also began to slip about a decade ago, but the *NYT*
>is simply replete with stylistic infelicities that
>competent copyboys of a century ago would have
>caught.  Oh, OK, I don't have truly have reliable
>documentation of their capabilities, but I know
>that reading the *NYT* is too often unpleasant.  Why

On the other hand, have you ever sat down and read an American
newspaper from a century ago?  The stylistic standards in your
typical Golden Age of Journalism (pick one, any one) were quite 
awful.

>Don't They Hire More People Like Us?

Because they can't afford us.  Silly question....

Roger
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 9 Jan 1993 20:24:27 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

John Lovett writes:

	The only [academic] ones I have read are 'The Groves of Academe' 
	by Mary McCarthy, and 'The Masters' by C.P. Snow.

	I'm not sure that 'The Masters' is as well known as it should be.  
	It is a witty account of the infighting for the post of Master of 
	an Oxford college.

But infinitely less funny than Tom Sharpe's *Porterhouse Blue*.

						RABworm

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: prmader@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MICHELLE MADER)
Subject: Cajuns
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date:  8 Jan 1993 11:38 EST  

In a previous article someone asked for a recommendation on books
about Cajuns.  Try _The_Cajuns_-_From_Acadia_to_Louisiana_ by
William Faulkner Rushdon.  It's been a long time since I read it
but I remember I liked it.

Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:24706 talk.politics.misc:67238 talk.politics.theory:5622
From: jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 4 Jan 93 14:53:18 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>Laura Mollett writes:
>> Sometime later I get a note from the librarian that says,
>> in part: Of course, Amanda may choose more challenging
>> reading material.  I will be delighted to help her select
>> something more substantial. However, I really feel that
>> there are more appropriate choices for Amanda's maturity
>> level than _The Babysitter's Club_.  I hope when she
>> finishes the series she will embrace the multitude of
>> excellent literature we have at Ashland.  I will be glad
>> to provide you with a list of books if you so desire.
>>
>> Is there any reason at all why I should choose her "for
>> fun" reading forher from a list.  What's wrong with what
>> she chooses for herself?

Quite honestly, the librarian is doing what I hope I would do myself.  She
feels slightly uneasy about Amanda's choice of what are, to put it kindly,
fluff books-- marshmallow of the mind next to which old Scholastic pbs. pale.
So, she offers to point out some other books to Amanda and/or you.  I suspect
that she is not asking you to choose Amanda's reading, but to "guide" her,
just as you would in TV watching: Well, here are some books that the librarian
claims are interesting. Amanda, do any of these sound interesting to you?

I, personally, have always found reading lists useful as suggestions. This may
come of my mother's ambition: that we both read all the Newbery Award winners.
She's still at it.

-- 
Jennifer Heise                           Net: jahb@lehigh.edu
Reference Dept.,                         Phone: (215) 758-3072
Fairchild-Martindale Libraries #8A,  Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015
My opinions are my own. No one else would HAVE them anyway.

"The toad beneath the harrow knows Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road Preaches contentment to that toad."  Kipling
From: mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Confirmed Biblioholics
Date: 6 Jan 1993 12:07:17 -0500
Organization: Emory University, Dept of Math and CS
NNTP-Posting-Host: emory.mathcs.emory.edu

In article <1993Jan6.033545.17500@micor.ocunix.on.ca>, ve3pak@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Alayne McGregor and Brett Delmage) writes:
> In article <1i9r2mINNok6@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley) writes:
> >
> >In all this discussion of biblioholics' bedrooms, I don't
> >recall having seen anyone admitting to incorporating books
> >and/or reading creatively into their sexlives.
> 
> However, there is a problem with the (umm) literary quality
> of much of the explicitly-sexy material. The writing (apart from
> the sex descriptions) is so bad in these as to immediately turn me
> off.
> 
> I think sexy scenes out of literature (Anais Nin, maybe) might work
> better.

People seem to misunderstand me here.  Be a little more creative,
please; imagine incorporating books and/or reading into your
sex lives in ways that do not depend on their lascivious natures
(the books', I mean).  Think hard...

With a maidenly blush,

meg


-- 

 Meg Worley 				Internet:  mworley@mathcs.emory.edu
From: mmaxwell@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:34:50 GMT
Reply-To: sender
Distribution: usa
Organization: IR/PS at UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: irpsws80.ucsd.edu

John Lovett wrote asking for recommendations on books with an academic setting.

I would heartily suggest "The BIG U" by Neal Stephenson, however it takes place
in more of a campus setting, rather than an academic setting per se.  Very
funny, rather dark and weonderful all around.  Also rather hard to find, i'm
afraid, but well worth the search.

-------------------
Matt Maxwell
mmaxwell@ucsd.edu

"He took personality tests
 and stapled them to his lower lip" -- Stan Ridgway
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:25:13 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan9.025946.5162@Princeton.EDU>  
roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> Why?  Critique of Marx's method is sufficient, don't you think?   
What 
> do we learn from scrutiny of his family life?  
> 
> For a better critique, try Jon Elster.
> 

In a sense, you are correct. However, Johnson also does examine
Marx's method. He criticizes him, for example, for saying that
Capitalist society would never take steps to fix social wrongs;
however, one of his primary sources of information was the
reports issued by varios British orgranizations that the government
set up to address the very wrongs Marx claimed would always be 
ignored. 


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 9 Jan 93 20:19:09 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <C0Ln7H.LDw@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>Mike Godwin asks:
>  Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
>  What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?
>
>I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to 
>do this, yes.

Says the man from his comfortable chair.  Snort.  Morris will never be
at a disadvantage in this situation, lucky as he is to have chosen his
parents well.  Do you ever wonder how facile and easy it is for a man in
his position to be such a paragon of "Liberal" "thought"?

People like this are unaffected by history, and ignorant of law and precedent.
They also have bizarre misconceptions as to what the purpose of what civil
rights laws and their court interpretations are trying to address--hint,
Morris: these have _nothing_ to do with improving race relations or erasing
personal bigotry, despite your attempt to cite these as failures toward such
goals.

Now that we've determined that this tempest is just your typical libertarian
drone, can't it go to one of the politics groups where it will join
the rest of the libertarian drones?  It's no less tiresome for being
sung sotto voce.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Paglia:  clarification needed
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:04:43

In article <C0H2qB.Bqr@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald) writes:

   Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Path: CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!stanford.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.iastate.edu!isuvax.iastate.edu!S1MBM
   From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
   Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
   Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
   Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
   Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:13:21 GMT
   Lines: 10

   How on earth can some of you claim that Paglia is *not* a difference
   feminist when she says that if women had been responsible for 
   civilization, we'd all be living in grass huts?  She may insist on
   equal rights, but her insistence on absolute differences based on
   biology render her insistence on social equality rather tepid, in my
   view.  Sorry, but I don't see Paglia has some great advocate for 
   women.  She is a great advocate for Madonna and herself, and that's
   about it.

   michael mcdonald

Yes. In this Paglia resembles a scientist more than she resembles a
lawyer.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Which Shakespeare works to buy?
Date: 6 Jan 93 03:04:17 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Originator: schung@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

In article <1993Jan5.190308.14217@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
# 
# 	Drowned out it must have been for I did not see it. Yes, the
# Oxford Shakespeare was very controversial when it began to trickle
# out. As I remember it was *Hamlet* especially that arose the critic's
# ire. The editors reinserted scenes that the Shakespearian
# establishment had discarded some years ago.

How about the case of the two Lears?  Is conflation generally accepted then?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.logic
From: peterb@cs.rug.nl (Peter J. de Bruin)
Subject: Re: Doctrines of Maybe: 7 truth values
Organization: Dept. of Computing Science, University of Groningen
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:08:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.020944.20105@sophia.smith.edu> orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke) writes:
>I read [*] that an ancient Hindu sect, the Jains, rejected the law of
>the excluded middle and instead believed in seven truth values,
>yielding their Doctrines of Maybe.  Anyone know how they characterized
>these seven shades of truth?
>
>[*] in "The Creators" by Daniel J. Boorstin.

I think "seven truth values" is a misinterpretation.
   "Seven shades of truth" may very well refer to the seven levels of
interpretation that are attributed to the Qur'an and (when I'm right) to the
sacred scriptures of some other religions as well.  These levels are of
increasingly esoteric purport, and have little to do with logic.
   The denial that things must be either true or false means that the truth
of very many (philosophical/moral/everyday) statements depends on your
interpretation and world-view, and that it's often impossible to be really
unambiguous.

Greetings, Peter de Bruin.
-- 
 Peter de Bruin             +------------------------------------------+
 University of Groningen    |  Awareness of our Universal Brotherhood  |
 The Netherlands            |  shall irresistably penetrate society.   |
 ( P.J.de.Bruin@cs.rug.nl ) +------------------------------------------+
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:25:29 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <C0JqwG.5Hx@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>Gene Ward Smith writes at me:
>  Since heterosexuals are a collectivity, and since in your support for
>  Colorado #2 you are advocating granting special rights to
>  heterosexuals, this is a contradiction to the above.  In a previous
>  post, you involved yourself in a related self-contradiction: you
>  advocated legislation saying that gays and lesbians should not be
>  given a special status vis a vis rights.  However, any legislation
>  which singles out these sexual orientations would necessarily give
>  them a special status.

>Umm, I explained I would support CO2 precisely because I think it does
>not advocate granting special privileges to heterosexuals. Perhaps
>you could explain how it in fact does grant heterosexuals such privileges?

It retains their rights to file discrimination suits on grounds of 
heterosexuality.

>Again, I'm quite willing to change my mind about this. But, as

We'd prefer if you read the statute closely.

>far as I can see, the only thing CO2 does is says that a homosexual
>cannot have access to special privileges *by virtue of being
>homosexual*. It doesn't say that he can't have access to special
>privileges by reason of any other respect of his person. Nor does it
>say that heterosexuals can have access to special privileges because
>they are heterosexual.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.  

The statue SPECIFICALLY denies access to discrimination suits on grounds
of homosexuality.  

Now, are such suits a special privilege?  If so, then hets still have 
a special privilege that homos don't.

If not, then the discrimination is not an issue of special privilege and
your argument is out the window.

>  A more consistent position would be to argue that no special status be
>  granted to anyone on the grounds of sexual orientation.  I've seen few
>  signs that very many heterosexuals are contemplating giving up certain
>  special rights they now enjoy (e.g. adoption, marriage) however.

>Well, again, I would be much happier with this than with CO2 as it now
>is. 

So would we, but we're also realistic enough to recognize that we're 
not going to *see* that other world anytime soon.  So avoiding the 
imposition of MORE discrimination seems like a good idea.

>Personally, though, I would strongly support removing any sort of
>heterosexual exclusivity from the law in regards to marriage or
>adoption.

And I'd like to buy Italian tropical wool suits for $39.95.  But I 
don't base my budgeting on that, any more than we should expect 
the privileges of hets to disappear overnight.  But that's no reason
to give them *more* privileges, or even (as you elsewhere proposed)
to provide explicit sanction to discrimination based on sexuality.

Roger