From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Raja i Papci
Date: 27 Sep 92 07:43:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:


>Anne's 
	ANA's (sorry to be so picky, but my name is Ana, not Anne)

>articles is an attempt to equalise victim and aggressor.  It would
>be true, if you put the equation:
>    Papci = Serbs
>    Raja  = Svi ostali

	You didn't read carefully! I WAS making an attempt to
	differentiate between the victim and the aggressor.
	I didn't say ANYWHERE that you shouldn't blame the
	aggressor (PAPCI). For me ALL that are involved in
	killing innocent people, looting, incarcerating,
	"cleansing", torturing... are guilty, no matter
	what nation they belong. I am very very picky, and
	that is why I can't blame the NATION, just
	INDIVIDUALS. I do blame those Serbs who are guilty,
	oh, yes, I do blame them fiercely! I also blame
	those Croats who are guilty, and those Muslims
	who are guilty, etc... I just do not subscribe to the
	above formula because: this formula and other
	formulas similar to it (Papci=Croats; Raja=Svi ostali/
	Papci=Muslims; Raja=Svi ostali, etc) are the CAUSE
	of the war! Don't you realize it!? It doesn't mean that
	those criminals who crossed Drina and went to destroy
	people in Bijeljina are not guilty, that those who sit
	on the hills of Sarajevo, who bomb Jajce and Bihac are not
	Guilty! On the contrary! For heavens sake, there is no
	excuse!!! Yet, they are guilty not because they are Serbs!
	

>This is to help identify current happenings, and not a general formula.
>Chamberlaine-like considerations will only help Serbs to continue with their 
>crimes.  I am not quite sure about Anna's intentions, but everybody must
>understand that fascists can be disabled only military.  Any confusion is
>just an excuse and factual support for continuation of bombardment of 
>Sarjevo, Jajce, Bihac... 

	Ana's intentions are not to confuse, nor to help anyone continue
	with their crimes! Ana's intentions are completely opposite:
	I am not giving any Chamberlaine-like arguments when I say
	that the war has started and is going on because the people
	on all sides are pumped up with hatered toward their own
	brothers and sisters, neighbors and friends. The leaders
	on all sides have first brought the whole country to the
	point of bankrupcy, pauperized and looted everybody, and
	then found terrific scapegoat in the unfortunate history:
	THEY (any nation other than yours) are your real enemies!
	[look what they have done to you in 1941-45, or you name
	it period of history, etc]. You must remember years and
	years (maybe 15 - maybe 20, certainly the past 10) of carefully
	staged propaganda on all sides... And in the meantime these
	leaders (many of which are still in power in every ex-Yu
	state) continued to steel from their own people! We have seen
	just a tip of the iceberg in numerous political and economic
	scandals that were uncovered in the past 10 years. Don't you
	remember?

	No, I am not trying to confuse you, to dilute the guilt
	of the ones who lead this war! I am just trying to
	help you see who the REAL VILLANS are. That doesn't exclude
	Serbian government or Bosnian Serb leaders! But it does exclude
	hatered toward other NATIONS! At this point, most of the
	PAPCI are Serbs. But are you really ready to say that
	there are NO PAPCI among "SVI OSTALI"? (Not in order to
	excuse the Serbs - but in order to fight the EVIL!)

>Dear Anne, it sounds so attractive, being humanist and understand everybody.
>Naturally, my family is mixed too.  Do you believe that should prevent us
>to recognise HITLER, when he resurrects?  And, he appeared, does excatlly
>what he is supposed to do, and you are claiming that everybody is guilty!
	
	Yes, it sounds attractive. Being a humanist is the only possible
	position if you want to fight against the evil. And, contrary to your
	question, that is the only position that can help you
	recognize HITLER (note: you didn't say GERMANS!). Or let me
	put it in a different perspective: My article was aimed as much
	at you (Muris), as at all others who read this newsgroup: including
	some Serbs who have also fallen for the nationalism and similarly
	to you construct equasions: PAPCI=Moslems/Croats. My article was
	an attempt to tell them, too, to find their real enemy in the
	ones who made them believe that other NATIONS are to blame and to
	be satanized. Yes, we will not stop this war until we catch
	our HITLER(S). And we will not stop the war until we understand
	that HITLER is not GERMANS (KARADJIC/MILOSEVIC/ARKAN is not SERBS;
	TUDJMAN/PARAGA/BOBAN is not CROATS; IZETBEGOVIC is not MUSLIMS; -
	please feel free to add any other names of the criminals you
	know on all sides, but don't blame the nations).


>So patetic and stupid and silly, after more than year of shelling from 
>Serbian side (Dubrovnik, Vukovar, Gospic), brutal agression from Serbia
>(Bijeljina, Foca, Zvornik), ethnic cleansing (have you seen pictures?) as a
>part of Serbian policy, theror of all regions (Sarajevo, Bihac, Jajce) as
>an attempt to divide population and make pure Serbian regions.  After so 
>many articles, news, and reportages about Balkan' Butcher on the top of 
>Serbia, after Serbia's expulsion from all international organisations and 
>bodies, after sanctions imposed against Serbia, you are talking about equal 
>blame and bad guys everywhere!  We know that we are born same, so what? 

	No, not pathetic and stupid and silly! To want to stop all of
	the atrocities, the ones you name, and others you don't mention,
	that isn't silly and stupid and pathetic! If you confuse what
	I have said with defending war crimes, you didn't read carefully!
	And you have forgotten the years that immediately preceeded this
	madness, and you have forgotten yourself... If you can say
	"so what!" to the fact that we are born same, you are no better
	than all those Serbs who believe that THEY have to defend
	themselves from YOU just beacuse you are a Moslem. (This IS NOT
	an excuse for what they have done, and wouldn't be an excuse
	for you to do the same to them!)

>The principles of humanity are to protect innocent, punish the villains, and
>recognise the good and the bad.  You may help to Serbian part of your family
>to retain their dignity by fighting the evil, regardless from where it is 
>coming.  

	Exactly, punish the villans regardless from where it is coming. 
	(Unfortunately, the Serbian part of my family is all dead, I can 
	no longer help them...)


>It would be consistent with your article, if you just draw the 
>correct conclusion in the end: the fact that madness appeared within Serbian 
>nation, doesn't means that Serbs are immanentlly worse than other people.  

	Exactly! That's the point! Or one half of the point! The madness
	unfortunatelly appeared within all our peoples. Without any defending
	the war criminals - let me just remind you why Croatia had to wait
	from June 1991 to December 1991 to be recognized by UN. Because
	their constitution (written by certain individuals - not all
	Croats) did not recognize Serbs as a minority nor anything else!
	The Serbian nation or minority if you whish, was not even mentioned
	among all other minorities and provisions for them in the new
	independent country! To change THAT, was the condition UN gave
	Croatia in order to recognize it. Now, is that not madness?
	And I am mentioning this not to excuse the ones who went to war
	to, as they saw it defend themselves - there is no excuse for that!
	I just want to warn you that Villans may be lurking in your
	backyard, too! 


>It is confusing for all of us that Serb are supporting that madness, and all 
>behave in unacceptable manner.  But, that seems to be part of the game,
>resembles the Germans in II world war.  And that any Serb, condemning that
>madness, is more than simple human being: he is, like Thomas Mann, Villi
>Brandt, or Bogdan Bogdanovic, ideal for all of us, the trial how to behave 
>in "lead" times.

	Many things are confusing in this war, and many of us don't know
	all there is to know to make a right judgement. But, I know this:
	there is a great number of Serbian people who do not support that 
	madness, there is a great number of Serbs that have deserted (some
	say around 40.000 young men have run away to various countries
	in order to avoid the draft (last year), there is a great number of
	Bosnian Serbs that are not supporting this madness (some of them
	have even been executed by the war criminals because of that), there
	are so called "loyal" Serbs in Bosnia, who even fight (!) among
	the Bosnian troups against the agressor... There are Serbs - refugees
	from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina... Serbs who are against
	this madness are not just isolated heroic figures like Thomas Man,
	they are also "raja"! It is simply NOT true that ALL Serbs are PAPCI.

	All I am defending is sanity: do look around and see who are
	the ones who brought us in this hell, who profit from our
	fighting and misery, who HAVE POWER to send troups or to stop
	them, who decide about destiny of millions of ordinary "raja",
	who play games with all of us! We can only defend them if we
	all desert! 

>Muris

Ana
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:246 soc.culture.jewish:17179