HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wangf@unixg.ubc.ca (Frank Wang)
Subject: Re: Re: someone who sounds funny
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:39:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.200110.6956@athena.mit.edu> zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
>In article <BtynxE.Cs1@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, "NY." <yue@MOHLSUN.PHYSICS.UPENN.EDU> writes:
>|> It is funny(outrageous) to see someone's reaction to Mr. Shen's arrest.
>|> When Mr. Shen did not go back to China, some people called him(and others)
>|> chicken. When he did go back and is facing tough punishment of CCP, some people
>|> denouced him as trying to get famous. What a logic it is! I cannot help feeling
>|> sad for Mr. Shen ands cannot help saying that it is a shame for some people to
>|> do those shameful things.
>
>
>Haha, that is simple.  Here the so-called "protection" works!
>
>When this guy was in Beijing in 1989, he is a ordinary PRC citizen, and NOT 
>protected by Uncle Sam, so after shouting some brave slogans, he byebye le.  
>Through other "stupid" people have to pay all the expense...
>
>Now, this guy is an American Citizen, and a favorite & loyal son of Uncle Sam, 
>well-protected, of course, by his masters in DC.  So it is time to go...
>
>Outrageous? No, Funny? no.  
>----------
>
>Actually, I don't care what his motivation is. The real thing is whether he violated
>any laws in China.  That is the point.
>
>Let's take a look.
>The fact is:
>CG/CCP didn't bother him for quite a long time, until he was going to hold a
>meeting/ceremony of an orgnization, or whatever, targeting at overtune the government.
>
>Did his action violate any laws in China?  I can not say much before I know
>everything he did, but the likehood is high. Why? Since in China, or in US, 
>any action aiming  at overtune the government is illegal.  Besides, in China, 
>any orgnization, by law, should register itself in PB first.
>
>Therefore, we can see even if Shen did NOT violate any law in China, he is 
>definite a suspect by any means, therefore, PB has the right to "grab"  him.


I don't agree he should have make any stirring there.  He went too far.
If CG put effort on economics, let them do it.  Don't bother them TOO
much.  Please compromise a bit, guys.

F. wang
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194)
Subject: Re:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:57:00 GMT

In article <Bty4K9.IIL@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU> writes...
>Wed Sep  2 03:08:55 MST 1992
>to: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu
>subj.:     Re: Protest in San Francisco
> 
>After reading the messages posted by Mr William Deng and others,
>I feel so sorry for Mr Shen.  While Mr Deng can clear his name in
>such a spectacular way, Mr Shen is probably in a cold detention
>cell somewhere in Beijing and could not even know that others are
>defiling his name.
> 
>I am no personal friend of Mr Shen Tong and he is not asking me
>to clear his name for him.  But I can't help to say something.
>While the "setup" is pure speculation, the purpose of the "setup"
>stated by Mr Deng is beyond speculation: "Shen Tong got what he
>wanted: to get famous and ...", I really would like to hear from
>Mr Deng: How did you get such conclusions?   "China also did not
>break her promise: it's fine to come back if you don't do it
>again no matter what you had done before."  What is the logic?
> 
>I don't want waste people more time by listing more questions
>like these,  so I will learn from Mr Deng, and say a few words
>for Mr Shen Tong.
> 
>To clear Mr Shen's name, it seems that I have to reveal some of
>his previous activities.  Sorry I could not list many of his
>previous activities as proof.  However, he was a little "famous"
>so CSS's in many US schools invited him to give talks and
>fortunately, University of Arizona was one of those
>schools.  So, here it is:
>When: Apr. 28, 1990.  Where: PAS Auditaurium, U. of Arizona
>(UA), Tucson, AZ.  Audience: about 200 people (not "almost all UA
>people" though "almost all KeDa people" attended Mr Deng's
>speech; I have to be honest and objective, otherwise I may defile
>Mr Shen's name).
> 
>Anyway, there must be enough such "previous activities" to
>qualify Mr Shen Tong as "famous", so one can believe that he did
>not have to resort to such a "setup" to get himself into trouble
>in order to just "get famous" (my suggestion to him: just list some
>of his previous activities on a major network or other media will
>easily do it).
> 
>Finally, I sincerely wish we could do something to help.  I am
>pleased to see the actions taken by SVDC and IFCSS.  I hope
>I have wasted enough time on this nonsense dispute so that others
>will not waste more time on it and can do something helpful.
> 
>Y. Gu

I totally agree with you that saying Shen Tong was trying to get famous
is nonsense.

In Deng's article, he suggested that the whole thing was a setup. He 
gave some doubt which I could not explain. Would that be possible that
some special interest group set up this for their purpose and utilized
Shen's passion and willingness to fight without letting him know the 
whole truth? 

Just a pure speculation! Probably another nonsens!
c.q.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's Showdown
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:58:57 GMT

In article <BtyGL7.4v4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "T. Bao" <I990002%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu> writes:
>
>Yes, I am gonna fight for democracy and human rights in China.
>The most glorious job ever existing in the world.
>
>Democracy fighter, what a beautiful name!
>
>T. Bao

I think democracy is one thing most people want to have. It is not the
most glorious thing, but something that can strike people's heart. Believe
it or not, I like democracy better than dictatorship. If there are choices,
I will prefer to live in a place that is democratic.

I have never experienced the life that can make me feel dictatorship is
better. Most probably because I have never been privileged. I like democracy
because I am an ordinary person and is glad to have myself counted.

When pig is slaughtered, no one pay any attention to it. But what happen if
you yourself is a pig? Pigs do not have pig right, otherwise we will not
have meat to eat. Without human right, you are a pig. The only difference
is that pigs are slaughtered by non-pig, while you as a human may be
slaughtered by human.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xpeng@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      Re: China's Interests
Reply-To: xpeng@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:49:40 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

>No matter who do something harmful to China's interests, I will fight against
>him/her.  --W. Deng--

Sound like Hitler or Neo-Nazi to me.  Put the nation's interests above people's
is the core of Hitler and Commununism ruling theory.  Puely emphasize the
nation's interests without respecting the basic human rights and holding any
moral standards will just turn him back into the wild world.  If the one is
in power the people under the ruling will be turned into a slavery-like society.
  We have suffered from that before.  During peaceful time, using the nation's
interests to deprive people's basic rights is the beautiful and ugly excuse, it
depends on who look at it.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Haosheng Zhou <philz@ee.umanitoba.ca>
Subject:      What are human rights and what are not?
Reply-To: Haosheng Zhou <philz@ee.umanitoba.ca>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:11:26 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

The concept of human rights has been used with diverse meanings. This
makes the debate senseless though. Here I am trying to give a simple
definition of human rights. I hope this can help in the debate.

Human Rights:

1) Freedom of speech;
2) freedom of worship;
3) freedom from fears;
4) freedom from wants.[1]

Now here are some small exercise:

1) If Shen Tong has violated human rights of his partners, does he deserve
punishment of staying in CCP jail?

2) If in a street fight, a mug was seriously injured, does he deserve
being hospitalized?

3) In 6.4, when a APC rushing into TAM in high speed, students burned
the APC while the driver was still inside. Students said: "It's O.K. He
is not human being." Is this right?

Haosheng Zhou

[1] wants -- noun, means needs, lack of something and poor. In this
sense, the 4) above is close to what Jiang Zemin said: right to live.
From: eleea4f@rosie.uh.edu (Zhuang, Wei)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: test
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:35:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

test
.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject:      garbage document No.44
Reply-To: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 07:22:00 GMT

About
"
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>2. PRC Announces Further Loosened Policies on Overseas Students ........ 56
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Source: People's Daily Overseas Edition, August 21, 1992
"

There is a piece in it says:
"

7) All local authorities and administrations should follow the guidelines
   in the No.44 document and should simplify their procedures for
   exit/entry for the CSS, and should help returned CSS to handle the
   matters in their daily life and work.
"

We have heard of this kind of thing many times in China, haven't we?
Is it a LAW or what?   If it is not law, it worths not much more than a garbage.
What will the "people's council' do to those "local autorities" who don't
follow this?  You think them will be tried? Noway!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:34:11 GMT

In article <2SEP199211572511@phobos.ucc.umass.edu> s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194) writes:
>
>In Deng's article, he suggested that the whole thing was a setup. He 
>gave some doubt which I could not explain. Would that be possible that
>some special interest group set up this for their purpose and utilized
>Shen's passion and willingness to fight without letting him know the 
>whole truth? 
>
>Just a pure speculation! Probably another nonsens!
>c.q.

I agree with you that you are making pure speculation and your points 
are nonsense.

It is not easy to use someone's mind, considering Shen Tong is already
24 years old. I would tend to think that Shen Tong is mature enough
to speak for his own belief, but has not been too mature to be
selfish. I think Shen Tong is not a stupid man although may be not
as sophisticated and smart as you guys.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu)
Subject: Re: response to Mr. W. Dong and Mr. T. Bao's comments
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:49:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.171837.24653@cs.brown.edu>, ylq@lems23lems.brown.edu (Yan Shen) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep3.154437.29086@athena.mit.edu>, zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> |> The Constitution of United State has been out there for more than 200 years.
|> |> |> Since 1949, you know how many times the Constitution of China has been abolished 
|> |> |> by the same party and then rewritten by the same group of people with different 
|> |> |> bosses. 
|> |> 
|> |> Wrong. The Consitution of United States has been modified by adding so-called 
|> |> "Amendments".  
|> |> 
|> 
|> But no politican can change that first amendment and nobody can add any other 
|> amendments onto it only by him/herself. 

Did I said anything like that? :)  The truth is the so-called US Constitution
did/does/and will have amendents, NOT sth out there for more than 200 years.

Do you know at the first beginning in this Consitution, the American Indians
donot even have the right to vote? :)  Maybe some nerds at that time also
claimed "it will stay like this and nobody can add any other amendments onto it". :)

|> 
|> |> What's the hell reasons should we keep the same Constitution for more than 200 years?
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> |> or even more?  You want the Constitutions of Qing dynasty or Mingguo? They are
|> |> really old though. :) :)
|> |> 
|> 
|> It prevents any politican from thinking that he is above the constitution and the 
|> law. Is this the fundamental difference ?


Really? Why?  So keep the Constitution of Qing or Mingguo will make this
"fundamental difference"? :)

The fact is NO CONSTITUTION WILL STAY INTACT FOREVER.  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Bo Xiong <xiong@BSU-CS.BSU.EDU>
Subject:      Forwarding: SHEN Tong's Human Rights
Reply-To: Bo Xiong <xiong@BSU-CS.BSU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:56:51 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

The following was posted to talk.politics.china but not china-nt:

(I know this forwarding will go back to talk.politics.china, but it's
 not my fault :-)

------------------------- Forwarding Begins -----------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xc17@quads.uchicago.edu (xiaoyong  chai)
Subject: Shameful Speculations
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:19:35 GMT

 I finaly saw some sensible posts on this group about Shen Tong's arrest. I
did think we would see no sympathy to Shen in this group.

 A question to all those who seem to have a problem with Shen Tong's plan and
"setup", do you believe that it is Shen's fundemantal human right to do
what he has done. It is well caculated allright, so what,

   He is NOT guilty, period!

 What makes you guys so easy to forget the basic right or wrong , shame on you!

 I have a personal expeirence with Mr. Shen and it is an extremly unpleasant
one. But his arrest is a different issue. It is not Shen Tong any more, it is
any human being in that context. One should be indignated regardless what is
the setup.

  Sorry you guys, you are also in history, not so positive though.

------------------------ Forwarding Ends ----------------------------------

Forwarded by Bo Xiong in Chicago
From: HE@UCC.UWINDSOR.CA (Herb Ho)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: The debate over Shen Tong
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:09:00 GMT
Reply-To: Herb Ho <HE@UCC.UWINDSOR.CA>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: multiple recipients <CHINA-NT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Dear fellow Chinese:

     The name-calling in the Shen Tong debate stinks, and it does nothing
to help the cause of a better China that both sides purport to be fighting
for.

     The acrimony carries too much malice. The harsh but unsubstantiated
attacks on personalities are obviously meant to hurt, and for all that I
can see, they do hurt. Just about every debator now seems to harbour hard
feelings. I do not see anyone prepared to accept any sound opinions that might
have arisen. The issue has been lost. So, why is the debate?

     Talk sense, my friends.

Herb Ho
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HE%NIEHS.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject:      CCP equals China ?  No! No!! No!!!
Reply-To: HE%NIEHS.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:05:00 GMT

Dear Netters:

Mr. Deng, Xiaoping Deng, no, no, no, William Deng, insists that CCP=China
or CG=China, and therefore any one against CCP or CG is against China, against
the Chinses people.  Mr. Deng's theory is not new to every Chinese people at
all.  He just learnt from his brother old Deng and Mao.  Mr. Deng did an
excellent job, but not perfect.  Mr. Deng forgot his brother old Deng and Mao's
few more words or a sentence "anyone against me (Mao or Deng) was/is against
CCP, against CP and against the Chinese people".

If Mr. Deng's theory is right, it can extend to:

KMT = China
KMT Government = China

As:

Mao, and old Deng and their party, CCP againsted KMT and overthraw KMT
Government

Therefore:

Mao, old Deng and CCP againsted China, againsted the Chinese people

Therefore:

Mao, Deng are criminals, are enemies of China and the Chinses people.  They
should be jailed by KMT Government, condemned by the Chinese people.

CCP is a criminal organization, and should be banned by KMT Government and
the Chinese people.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Re: Update on Shen Tong's Arrest in Beijing
Reply-To: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:17:41 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

> I don't want to see that senator to speak on China affair.  To promote
> democracy in China means to promote Chinese's democracy, but not
> democracy of persons of other countries on China affair.  I don't care
> what those non-Chinese have said, just tell me the opinions of citizens
> of PRC on Shen Tong's arrest (including people's feeling in China).
>
>
> [author's name deleted]

Fine.  Tell me how we can accomplish that.  As a matter of fact, we even worked
with Voice of America to take Shen Tong's case to the Chinese people over the
air.  Letters have been sent out to the Duties of the People's Congress.  We
shall see whether there will be any result from these efforts.  There were at
least three VOA and BBC broadcastings done in the last few days as far as I
know.

Please keep one thing in mind though.  We are NOT asking American legislators
to express or excert their opinions or ideas about how Chinese should go about
in promoting democracy.  We are asking EVERYONE in the international community,
including Americans, to speak out against human rights abuses and suppression
of constitutional rights of Chinese citizens by the Communist regime.  Shen
Tong is merely the latest victim of that totalitarian system.  Another thing to
remember please: human rights is univerval and it is not an ethnic privilege.
Saying that we don't care about "what those non-Chinese have said" is sort of
dangerously close to becoming discriminative.  "You shouldn't do what you don't
want others to do to you - Confucius."


Ignatius Ding
From: zeng@mth.msu.edu (Zhonggang Zeng)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: China's Interests
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:31:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Michigan State University

In article <BtzMK2.KtJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>The definetion of China's interests: the accumulation of all Chinese'
>interests.
>
Very funny. You still have not yet defined anything, or you don't know 
how to define things at all. How to calculate the "accumulation"? Or 
Who is authorized to calculate it? Does the interest include freedom
and democracy?

>It is very strange that so many CSS enjoy bashing China while China is
>struggling for a modern country and making impressive progress in most
>aspects of social life, 

Can you identify any CSS who is bashing CHINA herself? I bet you can't. 
You can find a lot CSS who are bashing Chinese government, that's all.
You seem to have trouble distinguish China and Chinese gov't. You are
consistant in your incompetence in defining concepts.

>and praising the freedom and democracy in former
>Soviet and Eastern Europe while people there are suffering poverty of
>or civil war. 

What's the cause of the suffering? Freedom? No.
Former USSR and E. Europe are paying the cost of communism. The longer
communism lasts, the more they have to pay. Same for China's future.
Just imagin that the 20 million party officials ( not government officials
or factory managers) who have no other skills will lose their jobs on
the due day. The number of these garbage people are still growing and
the due day will certainly come.

>
>William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yongbai@physics.su.OZ.AU (Yongbai Yin)
Subject: Re: "New" policy" and "Shen Tong was arrested"
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:04:23 GMT

	Can the "New Policy" be applied to the case of Shen Tong?  Apparaently,
Shen had not got chance to do something "harmful" to China during this returningHave a look on what kind of excuses would be found for Shen.  Probabily, CCP
will argue:
		1.	He is not CSS.
		2.	Crime was found after returning.
		3.	"New Policy" does not concern what CSS have done
			before left China.
		4.	"New Policy" is not a law formulated by legistive, so
			the "New Policy" is not necessarily followed by
			executive department.

		5.	The "New Policy" will be executed after approved by
			the "Rubber Stamp".
		6.	"New Policy" can be only applied to 95% of CSS, but
			not the rest.

		.........

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Tapes for Council Meetings
Reply-To: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:29:00 GMT
Comments: To: council@venus.physics.emory.edu, china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu,
              ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU, soc-culture-china@ucbvax.berkeley.edu,
              china-news-post@mentor.cc.purdue.edu,
              osu.chinese@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu,
              soc-rights-human@ucbvax.berkeley.edu,
              cnd-us@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu

Dear IFCSS Members:

     If you want the tapes of the Lobby Emergency Meeting and the First
Council Teleconference, please send $7.00/per meeting and your address to
the following address:

                       Kai Hwang
                       6700K Foxridge
                       Blacksburg, VA 24060

the tapes will be sent to you.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu)
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's Showdown
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:16:40 GMT

In article <BtypyA.Epy@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
|> 
|> I think democracy is one thing most people want to have. It is not the
|> most glorious thing, but something that can strike people's heart. Believe
|> it or not, I like democracy better than dictatorship. If there are choices,
|> I will prefer to live in a place that is democratic.

Yes. But in a democratic society, everything should be under the laws. Can
you get used to that ? Like stopping any personal attack and rumor making
against your rival. Can you do that?  

|> When pig is slaughtered, no one pay any attention to it. But what happen if
|> you yourself is a pig? Pigs do not have pig right, otherwise we will not
|> have meat to eat. Without human right, you are a pig. The only difference
|> is that pigs are slaughtered by non-pig, while you as a human may be
|> slaughtered by human.
|> 

But when a human being donot have any food, he is not even as good as a pig! 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 00:51:00 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Come on, what protest for? The whole event is a successful setup, and Shen Tong
got what he wanted: to get famous and lend support to his congress friends'
claim that China deserves sanctions because of the bad HR records. China also
did not break her promise: it's fine to come back if you don't do it again
no matter what you had done before. But anyway, a protest will make the setup
more beautiful and it's not bad to have some excercise after a long time
break.


William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china