HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 9 Sep 1992 16:17:53 -0400
Organization: Berkeley Software Design
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <1992Sep9.084825.5239@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>So  there is no ethnic conflicts in Estonia as I have always written.

Yep. There is a stupid chauvinistic government which cannot even
understand that they had 100% chances to be already shot if the
relatives of the Russians they hate weren't going streets when tanks
came to the far Moscow. I just _like_ to hear their raving about
removing troops which can be deployed back in *twenty minutes* if
military hawks take over in Russia. The only side which benefit from
their stupidity is the nationalists in Russia which have a nice example
to promote their shit with.

>So you support the idea that the teaching language at schools,
>official documents, street names etc. are in Estonia in estonian.
>I wish it however.

Ever travelled to Estonia? Even in the years of Soviet Empire's
prosperity the street names were in Estonian, the local broadcasting
company and newspapers were in Estonian, Estonian was taught in
schools (as well as Russian), internal documents forms were in two
languages and the local Academy of Science had a known professor
who with his numerous pupils made his dissertation on an Estonian
word processor. I was in Tallinn more than once, so i can tell it
not from the yellow tabloids you're using as sources.

Your wish was granted long before you've born. Lucky guy.

>And in independent Estonia estonian is the language of the communication
>with other ethnic groups. I support that policy.

Yuck. What a doublethink. English and Russian are used as inter-ethnic
languages not because of someone's "policy" but because really many
people can speak it. So far, Estonian is not the language which Russians,
Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and other residents of Estonia use for talking
to each other. And politicans can do nothing about it right now.
Feel the difference between teaching and demanding?

>Finally the estonians can decide themselves which are mandatory
>languages at their schools. I support that idea.
	      ^^^^^
Yep. Did i ever tell anything against teaching Estonian in schools?
Now the Estonian government is making laws about mandatory education
(by unknown means, because they won't spend money on it) of adults
under the threat of expelling for failing the language course and
denying them the voting and property rights right now.

Check if you're in touch with reality.

--vadim
From: alex@took.enet.dec.com ("Alex Allister Shvartsman, EMF,              LKG2-2/T2 12-Sep-1992 0757")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: A COBOK/EKC-COBOK characteristic :-)
Date: 12 Sep 92 12:02:44 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

RE: Aleksey Y. Romanov % From: "Aleksey Y. Romanov" <ayr@GTECH.COM>
> There is one big SOVOK( and xSOVOK)/american cultural difference: we(SOVOKs
> and xSOVOKs)  are untolerant to the idiotism.

If only this was true ...  Unfortunately thw proper formulation is:

	SOVOKs and xSOVOKs are intolerant to what they perceive as idiotism.

And that's a problem :-)

Alex

> I am interesting is it a Russian
>tradition or is it one of the great _zavoevanij of socializm and result of
>building new man ( means _chelovek). I do not think it is our cultural
>advantage. However, it (good or bad) is part of our culture.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: Re: Anekdot
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 21:13:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.101204.13285@cs.nott.ac.uk> avyfdvg@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (David Gatenby) writes:
>Russky i armyanin v kupe na poyezde.  Boltayut. 
>Russky: ,,Menya zovut Ivan.  Po-armyanski, Dzhan".
>Armyanin: ,,A menya zovut Akop. Po-russki, transhe". (Apologies for possible
>misspelling of the final word of the _anekdot-.)  I shall give an explanation
>of the joke on request. 
>                                    
>*David Gatenby, Dept of Slavonic Studies  *                           *
>*University of Nottingham, University Park* "Rasslab'sya, otechestvo" *
>*NOTTINGHAM, England NG7  2RD             *   (pun, not misspelling)  *
>*                         avyfdvg@unicorn.nott.ac.uk                  *


	Would you please explain ? By the way, Ivan in Armenian is
Hovanes.
From: shimkevi@buchmf.bu.edu (Sergey Shimkevich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Oh, those russians....
Keywords: russians
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:39:18 GMT
Organization: Boston University Chemistry Department

In article <BuFB0M.8p6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> didinsky@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (didinsky
garry) writes:

One last word about Patricia Schwarz: even if her interest in Russian culture
is not deep enough for your tastes, have some TOLERANCE, for God's sake, at
least she is interested in what we might be. Many more people in this country
have a different attitude, which is "why don't you goddamn Russians go home and
rot there" - more than you think. And they won't be as easy to shout down as
Ms. Schwarz.

>Is this enough to start a discussion about opions that soviets and emigrants
>have about america?  BTW, if anyone wants complaints about america, I also
>have plenty of those.

Well, to cool down a little bit, let's start a start a meaningful discussion
:-) 

One thing that really surprised me was that nobody here washes their hands
before eating (well, almost nobody). 

-------------semi-serious mode on------------------------------------------

And now...The Great Proposal!!!!!

It is apparent that most participants in this newsgroup need an effective
outlet for their negative energy. With Hasan B. Mutlu gone, this outlet is no
more and the results are obvious: a couple of completely innocent comments
from Ms. Schwarz result in a flame war.

Nuzhno nam, gospoda, delat' kak delali drevniye slavyane, a imenno, priglasit'
novogo Hasana na tsarstviye. Budem reshat', kogo. Ya lichno predlagayu knyazya
po imeni "Dwight Joe" iz dalekih zemel' "soc.culture.asian.american"  i
"soc.culture.china". Molod sei knyaz, no slava o nem gremit po vsei zemle
usenetskoi. Ne lepo li nam, byashe, poslat' hodokov?

------------semi-serious mode off--------------------------------------------

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Ryan: What is it to you, demon?       //// Sergei Shimkevich             //
// Lune: It is Sir, Demon to you, worm!  //// shimkevi@buchmf.bu.edu        //
// -Phantasy Star III                    //// shimkevich@A1.tch.harvard.edu // 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM (Mark Markish x2799)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:44:59 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@BRAUER.HARVARD.EDU>
> ....
> Note that I (and kids) don't mean by Satanism that we all should
> get a machine gun and kill people in the church. I mean rather...

That matters little - about as little as what the Bolsheviks and the
Nazis meant by Bolshevism and Nazism, respectively.

> Anyway, I doubt that there is even one Christian book
> as good as Master and Margaret.

You should have read one, for a change.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:42:20 GMT

>Good Luck with your project.

Thank you.

By the way, I am also not claiming some superior unique understanding of
Axmatova and Pasternak. These are genius poets and speak across cultures.
"Requiem" has verses that I don't have enough background to understand,
but it also has verses that speak (to me) very eloquently of the terror
of an abused child who fears those footsteps in the hallway juat as much
as any person did in Stalin's terror.

American poetry and literature don't offer me any comparable experience.
There are things I love about my own culture, but to me, Russian poetry
and literature is somehow more significant. I would even go as far as
saying that this was the greatest literary culture in the world, but
I'm sure others would disagree.

-patricia
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: On Bulgakov's antisemitism
Date: 11 Sep 1992 02:23:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <88554@netnews.upenn.edu> sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:
>  What about a humanist and an antisemite Solzhenitsyn? As Misha Verbitsky
                ^^^^^^^^
Is he?

Yury
From: dima@maths.uwa.oz.au (Dima Pasechnik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 10 Sep 1992 10:19:36 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
(answering to Vadim)
.....
>: 
>: I'd say the learning of a particular language as a condition to
>: obtaining citizenship (and as a cause for denying rights to posess 
>: property) is totally outrageous and constitue a gross violation
>: of basic human rights. Yes, someone needed to know Russian to be able
>: to run an enterprise (as well as in the US you need to speak English to
>: be able to get some something more well-paid than sweeping floors). But
>: nobody is and was threatened to get expelled for failing to learn.
>: 
>Vadim is  probably a "product " of a closed society, communism.
>As an example I mention following you cannot get swiss citizenship
> without passing a language
>test and it is very difficult. 
I've read something like that yet. BTW, a freid of mine from Swiss
(German-speaking) told me she hardly speak French. 
Suppose for a moment that French-speaking people have come into power in
Swiss, expel all German-speaking people from citizenship (as 'occupants', say),
and set a French language test passing as a necessity to become a
citizen again. 
It seems to me that it is a good model to imagine what's happening in
Estonia. What will be the reaction of German-speaking part of Swiss.
(And reaction of Germans at all).

Of cource, I'm a product of closed society. Thus I'm wrong, adopting
Jarmo's arguments.
............
>Jarmo

>: --vadim

Dima.
From: ken@racerx.bridge.COM (Ken Hardy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Cyrillic via net
Date: 5 Sep 92 04:36:46 GMT
Organization: Planet Earth

In article <186cqrINNjvh@rodan.UU.NET> avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
>In article <KARDANEV.92Sep4011545@hanoi.cern.ch> kardanev@hanoi.cern.ch (A. Kardanev) writes:
>The Internet is not inherently 7-bit limited; it's the software you're
>using on your machines and software on some major relay nodes like
>UUNET. If you have an IP connectivity to Internet you can use full
>KOI-8 in SMTP transfers to and from EUnet relay hosts which in turn
>will preserve 8 bits sending or receiving data from RELCOM. There is
>an 8-bit version of sendmail (called sendmail-IDA) available from
>several FTP archives.
...
>Pressing your local network administrators to install 8-bit transparent
>software will help to make Internet a truly international network.

Correct me if I'm wrong (as if I have to ask that in this crowd ;-),
but I believe that SMTP as defined in RFC-822 specifically limits data
to 7-bits.  Unfortunately, the 7-bit software is so pervasive that it
will take a long time for the whole network to upgrade to any newer
8-bit standard.  I don't know the status of any official 8-bit SMTP
effort.

The sendmail that Sun Microsystems ships to bizillions of users, for
example, is 7-bit limited.  So even if Uunet upgraded, many of us who
use them for mail rely are S.O.L.  :-(  Of course, I could download
8-bit sendmail source and install it, but not everyone is a software
or systems expert.

As much as I'd like it, I'm not expecting 8-bit mail any time soon.

I've used the uuencoded method to swap KOI-8 messages.  Using Sun's
mailtool with my hand-crafted KOI-8 font, I can easily unencode and
display a received  message in the tool's message view window (hint:
the 'extras' menu on text subwindows is configurable in
.text_extras_menus, default location in /usr/lib.)  Unfortunately,
entering the message is not so easy; I've not researched very hard on
whether there is a way to enter 8-bit data on Suns.  I've basically
used a variation of the SI/SO codes around 7-bit text, and then
postprocess the file to convert the flagged segments of text into KOI-8
by adding the eight bit.  This is not at all fun or amusing.  The only
thing to be said for it is that it worked.

-- 

Ken Hardy
ken@bridge.com  (racerx!ken)
From: Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Broughton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad
Date: 5 Sep 92 23:48:38 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Yury M. Mukharsky writes:
> >
> >1809 Finland fell under a Russian administration after a
> 
> Are you sure you have not missed 100 years. Knowing the way people
> they are teach in Finnish schools, you know :). Seriously am I wrong
> that Finland was taken from Sweden by Russia at the 1700's?
> 

To start with, the year was 1814. Both Sweden and Russia were on the winning
side of the Napoleonic wars. Finland, which had previously been controlled by
Sweden, was given to Russia. In return, Sweden got Norway, which previously
belonged to Denmark, which was on the losing side. Poland was also part of this
deal, but I don't remember the particulars.

--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Robert Broughton    Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca

"We calm and reassure. We embrace people with the message that we're
all in it together. That our leaders are infallible and that there is
nothing, absolutely nothing wrong." - Miles Drentell, _thirtysomething_
From: dima@maths.uwa.oz.au (Dima Pasechnik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 10 Sep 1992 09:08:05 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin) writes:

(Answering to S.Borodin)
........

>this is exactly the point. We know that Belov, Rasputin, Kozhinov,
>and Kunjaev are nazists NOT from their writings (somebody of them
>we read, and somebody didn't; though to answer your question in
>advance I should say I experienced to read all of the above listed
>persons), but due to their public activity.

I only would like to remind that the editorial board of 'Den'' contains
such nice people like (not quite fresh info, sorry) Nevzorov, Bondarev,
Shafarevich (BTW !). 
Considering 'Pamyat'', it is life time experience I had watching from my
windows their demonstration. Maybe I'm too nervious but I felt half
dead. 

Dima.
From: verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: y6eu B ce6e XACAHA! ( was: Re: Russian poetry )
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:54:54 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.soviet
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep10.165810.27117@leland.Stanford.EDU> schindle@leland.Stanford.EDU (Sarah Elizabeth Schindler) writes:
>Would you all please take this debate over who holds the keys to Russian
>literature/culture and step outside with it? Please? It seems that all the
>name-calling, flame-throwing, name-dropping, connection-flaunting, and
>sharing of stories of abuse and woe *could* be taken to alt.flame
>(or to email ! :.

>Thank you.
>
>Sarah Schindler

I second this. 	Igor with his holier than thou attitude gets
on my nerves. Funny thing is that guys who argue about the possibility
of understanding of Russian culture by foreigners never post
anything substantial on the subject of culture itself.
How much antisemites could be found on a pin of Estonian needle
in Roumania :) as Patricia wrote - this is Russian culture,
as these guys understand it. I  don't argue about her understanding, but I
am not sure Patricia bashers are no better. The only thing
which could not be found on soc.culture.soviet is culture.

Misha
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 7 Sep 1992 06:41:41 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep7.040218.24040@math.ucla.edu> aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin) writes:
>
>Do you really mean that before the perestrojka it was not possible to
>publish all this stuff? It seems to me that Belov's ``Vse vperedi'' was
>published in millions of copies long before the perestrojka. Also,
>let me remind you all these ``Litso sionizma'' etc. This is not to
>mention all the ``samizdat'' published in SOAN (Novosibirsk akademgorodok)
>and spread all over the country in these years with the obvios support of
>the ``KPGB''.
>

I never red none of this bullshit, but would you agree that there is much more
of this now. Moreover at least most of this stuff (I do not know about
Belov's books) were against Jews abroad. And even mostly against state of
Israel. That makes a _big_ difference. The idea of _outside_ enemy is bad
but it is not new, in general has nothing to do with antisemitism and
not even close to the idea of _inner_ enemy.

I would not claim that there were no anti-semitic practices of the state,
but they were hash-hash. Officially non-existant.

As for sionism, meaning assembling all Jews in Palestina, 
or idea of preference of Jewish nation (I think that was main object of attack
of all those anto-sionist commities) I do not think it is all that good
thing.

Yury
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: didinsky@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (didinsky garry)
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:19:48 GMT

I have to apologize to all our goyem friends from us, Jews.  You see, we forget.We forget that the world doesn't go around us, but we go around the world.  And
everywhere we go, we look for something familiar, that would make us feel right
at home.  It is usually anti-semitism.  And we usually are made to feel right
at home, in that respect.

I know we should not make such a fuss about your writters.  So, they were a little on the anti-semitic side, who wasn't.  But, you see we read them, we like 
their ability to write, and we get confussed.  After all, if we like them very
much we much have nightmares about skin on some parts of our body growing back.

With that I will tell you two jokes about what it is to be jewish, and we will
all laugh and drink kosher wine:

Joke1: A priest and a rabbi are ridding in a train.  After a while they started
talking:
Priest:  Tell me Mr. Rabbi. In your religion you cannot eat pork, right. But, 
tell me the truth, did you ever try it?
Rabbi:  Yes, Mr. Priest. It is forbidden.  But, I did try it once, and I must 
say, it was rather good.  Now, let me ask you.  In your religion, it is 
forbidden for a clergyman to have sex?
Priest:  Yes, it is a very big sin.
Rabbi:  But, tell me Father, between two of us, did you ever had sex?
Priest: It is absolutely forbidden... But, I was young at one time, and 
devil did try my soul.

Rabbi(5 min later): Tell me Father, isn't sex better than pork?


Joke2:  In the men's restroom in the local synagogue at the urinals:
1st Person: Tell me were you circumcised by great Rabbi Shmulik?
2nd Person: Yes, how did you know?
1st Person: You are pissing on my left shoe.

ps.  For those who give a ....  I have nothing against P.S. My joke was not 
directed at her or others.  I feel that she does have a lot of interesting
points to make.  However, I felt that her childhood bit was too much.  I
do believe it, much I watch Jeraldo for these types of heart rubbing stories.

And about Gogol':

Armyanskoe radio sprashivayut, byil li Tchaikovskii gomoseksualistom?

Arm-skoe radio atvechaet: Byil,.. no myi ego lyubim i ne tol'ko za eto.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:29:40 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <SCS-L%92090916353269@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>shouldn't keep trying, however.)  Great literature is rich enough to provide
>for all human experience, and that is why, for example, those interested in the
>possibility of Gogol's homosexuality have found another prism through which to
>read his works; 

Exactly - they are interested "in the possibilty of Gogol homosexuality",
- not in his works. BTW, they read very the same as Hlestakov's Stepan,
only the look for homo-... symbols instead of letters. But where is Gogol?

They found another mirror through which to love dear themselves.

>or those, like Ms. Schwarz, who is  conjoining tales of child
>abuse and abuse at the hands of the Nazis, have identified common human threads
>where others have failed to notice them.

Not failed - simply tried to read, not to find mirror.

"Kto, moi zerkal'ce, milee,
vseh prekrasnei, vseh sil'nee"

Maybe, this is real explanation, why there so much "damochek s diplomami 
i aspiraciyami" (spasibo, Sasha) around art. Eternal women's wish
to look at mirror. :-)

>  So, with respect to your example, I myself can't identify with Venichka be-
>cause I've never been drunk, not to mention desperate to get booze before the
>stores open, but there are many people out there who *can identify*, and they
>are not all in the xSU!  For me, personally, therefore, Erofeev is not a favo-
>rite, but I'm willing to agree with those who think he's a great writer because
>he captures this feeling so completely.

 I don't drink at all and I don't identify myself with writers (or heroes,
if that matter) from early childhood (chego i vam zhelayu), but I know that
Venichka is great for completely different reasons. You missed him. Pity.
Though maybe to feel why "Sleza komsomolki" is great, you should grow up
with Zoya Kosmodemyanskay stories in kindergarten.


>  It's insulting and narrow-minded to claim that only insiders can take part in
>the riches which world cultures offer us.  Try a little tolerance instead, - an
>approach which is, unfortunately, in very short supply on this list.

But culture, especially culture of mature nation, *is* for insiders. Extreme 
example - you should became insider of half a dozen cultures to be able to
read Joyce Ulysses. To be able to read Finnegan's wake you should became
insider of one man - Joyce himself. Unless you agree to trade new culture for
a misty mirror.

>Linda Scatton

	-igor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:09:22 GMT

>ps.  Patricia, I have a question for you: Do you think your revealing your
>personal unfortunate background makes your statements more credible?  Or,
>do you mension it so many times to make us feel bad for you?  Or, you just
>want the whole world to know what you went through, so that others on the
>network would come up with similar stories, and we all could sit around
>and tell our stories?

>I am not being trying to be rude, just trying to be psychological :-|

I do it  because people have to know it exists.

It exists because people stand for it and let it happen and
it happens far more often that I think you would be able to handle
knowing about.

Are you afraid of me?

The next time you see a child don't assume this child is being
treated like a human being.

I don't understand how such things can be tolerated in a "civilzed"
world. But they are tolerated because people keep quiet about it.

I refuse to do this anymore. I refuse to lie and say that yes, I'm
just another happy person on God's green earth.

You're all so worried that feminism is going to bring communism to
America, or some such things. Try worrying about something happening
now to real innocent people around you.