From: davei@wam.umd.edu (The One True Dave)
Subject: Re: Don't be silly, please
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:17:29 GMT

In article <4z-r5==@dixie.com> karl@dixie.com (Karl Klingman) writes:

>[Stuff about draughts and starving and uncontrolled birth rates deleted]
If you think this problem comes from lack of food, you're off by
quite a large margin. Maybe YOU should stop listening to the media.
Those people had enough food stored away to survive a drought. They
knew it was coming. It was when the warlords stole all the food that
had been saved that they started starving.
>
>>  We thought we were doing what was best. We had evidence that to
>>do otherwise would be catastrophic. Unfortunately, like elsewhere,
>>here the fruits of expidency have come back to haunt us.
>
>Bull.  First, who's this WE you speak of.  Are you part of NSA, CIA
>or high ranking military officer at the Pentagon? Let me guarantee you
>one thing -- doing what is best is NEVER a policy consideration.

Your cynicism is duly noted. However, your paranoia has
blotted out your view of reality. The people who run this
country are human beings, with human emotions. I understand
that most people see the US government as a bunch of evil
plotters in revolving conspiracies plotting to dehumanize
and control every person on the planet. Actually, they're
just a bunch of people trying to do a difficult job and,
more often than not, doing a good job in general with a
few errors that people love to point out as proof of their
foul intentions.

Yes, there is corruption in government. There's also
corruption at your local post office, and, more likely
than not, corruption in your workplace. It doesn't make
everybody corrupt.

If the United States didn't put humanity into it's policies,
tell me, what was the point of the Berlin Airlift? Why does
the government provide welfare? Environmental controls? 
Department of the Interior? Endangered species? Hell, what's
this "Bill of Rights" thing for? It makes it really hard to
control our lives.

BTW, "We" up there refers to the people of the United States.
Remember "We the People"? Before you start insulting me for
being in school, maybe you should study some yourself.

>>Get real. It isn't our duty as a nation to save Somalia, it's
>>our duty as human beings. 
>
>Nope.

If your humanity doesn't include saving small children,
then you're not a member of the human race I know and
love.

>
>>There is no difference between watching
>>a Somali starve to death and watching it happen to your next door
>>neighbor.
>>  As for Bosnia, well, tell me, who's right there? Those people
>>have been murdering each other for 2000 years and they take turns
>>being on top. I wish the fighting could be stopped, but that will
>>never happen, in Bosnia or anywhere, until people stop being close-
>
>>minded.
>
>And my friend, I wish the starving would stop in Somalia, but they've
>been starving for OVER 2,000 years there and they will continue to
>starve unless they quit having so many children.   If you feed them,
>they'll just get strong enough to start breeding again. The cycle will
>not end.  So sorry pal, but there's nothing you can do.
>

(See above explaination of why people are starving. I'm not making
this up, either.)

>>  The United States has acted on its conscience to save the people
>>dying in Somalia. If you can condemn them for acting out of conscience
>>then you should resign your membership in the human race. Even if we
>>do the wrong thing, at least we're doing it for the right reason.
>
>Back during the days of the Viet Nam war the slogan was: "My Country.
>Right or Wrong."  Maybe you could work to bring it back.  Hint: Start 
>with bumper stickers. 
>

It is my country, right or wrong, because it's run by the people
I helped elect. I won't succede from the United States because
they make a mistake, especially if they made the mistake with
good intentions. I will help shoulder the blame, instead of running
off shouting about betrayal by the powers of the US government.

>
>>tell you why I'm not a twit 
>No problem.   Most likely you are a twit because you are young. In 
>some cases people have been known to outgrow it.  But, I'm afraid the 
>are rare. The perscription is: 
>	1) Study very hard. 
>	2) Read a lot of books.  
>	3) Don't believe anything you hear from the news media
>	4) Don't trust anyone in authority.
>
>

1) I do study very hard. However, what you get depends on what you
study. I'm sure, if I'd studied what you studied and vice versa,
our opinions would be reversed.

2) Which books? See #1.

3) If I believed the news media, we wouldn't be arguing, because.
your view is what you'd get from the media.

4) Authority is made up of humanity. I listen to what anybody tells
me (including you) without believeing blindly or tossing it out
without thought.

>-- 
>He who would trade his liberty for  |  Karl Klingman
>short-term security deserves        |  American Research Group, Inc.
>neither...   Ben Franklin           |  emory!slammer!arg!karl


(*note: anything I didn't contest in your last post I won't, because
I don't know enough to say for sure that you're wrong. Also note that,
most of where we disagree, we disagree through a fundamental difference
in our views of humanity and government, and as such, those differences
will never be resolved. *)

All human beings, no matter where or when, are, in their core, equal,
if different. All have the emotions, the wants, the needs, and the
virtues that make up any human being, and all feel the twinges of
those emotions, no matter what course they take in life. Adolf
Hitler was moved to tears by music played in a friend's parlor,
and Abraham Lincoln became a military dictator in pursuit of what
he felt was right.

Once you accept the truth of this, all you have to do is look into
your own soul, and you will never trust nor condemn another human
being again.

This is wisdom.

-Anonymous
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Don't be silly, please
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <4z-r5==@dixie.com> karl@dixie.com (Karl Klingman) writes:

>[Stuff about draughts and starving and uncontrolled birth rates deleted]
If you think this problem comes from lack of food, you're off by
quite a large margin. Maybe YOU should stop listening to the media.
Those people had enough food stored away to survive a drought. They
knew it was coming. It was when the warlords stole all the food that
had been saved that they started starving.
>
>>  We thought we were doing what was best. We had evidence that to
>>do otherwise would be catastrophic. Unfortunately, like elsewhere,
>>here the fruits of expidency have come back to haunt us.
>
>Bull.  First, who's this WE you speak of.  Are you part of NSA, CIA
>or high ranking military officer at the Pentagon? Let me guarantee you
>one thing -- doing what is best is NEVER a policy consideration.

Your cynicism is duly noted. However, your paranoia has
blotted out your view of reality. The people who run this
country are human beings, with human emotions. I understand
that most people see the US government as a bunch of evil
plotters in revolving conspiracies plotting to dehumanize
and control every person on the planet. Actually, they're
just a bunch of people trying to do a difficult job and,
more often than not, doing a good job in general with a
few errors that people love to point out as proof of their
foul intentions.

Yes, there is corruption in government. There's also
corruption at your local post office, and, more likely
than not, corruption in your workplace. It doesn't make
everybody corrupt.

If the United States didn't put humanity into it's policies,
tell me, what was the point of the Berlin Airlift? Why does
the government provide welfare? Environmental controls? 
Department of the Interior? Endangered species? Hell, what's
this "Bill of Rights" thing for? It makes it really hard to
control our lives.

BTW, "We" up there refers to the people of the United States.
Remember "We the People"? Before you start insulting me for
being in school, maybe you should study some yourself.

>>Get real. It isn't our duty as a nation to save Somalia, it's
>>our duty as human beings. 
>
>Nope.

If your humanity doesn't include saving small children,
then you're not a member of the human race I know and
love.

>
>>There is no difference between watching
>>a Somali starve to death and watching it happen to your next door
>>neighbor.
>>  As for Bosnia, well, tell me, who's right there? Those people
>>have been murdering each other for 2000 years and they take turns
>>being on top. I wish the fighting could be stopped, but that will
>>never happen, in Bosnia or anywhere, until people stop being close-
>
>>minded.
>
>And my friend, I wish the starving would stop in Somalia, but they've
>been starving for OVER 2,000 years there and they will continue to
>starve unless they quit having so many children.   If you feed them,
>they'll just get strong enough to start breeding again. The cycle will
>not end.  So sorry pal, but there's nothing you can do.
>

(See above explaination of why people are starving. I'm not making
this up, either.)

>>  The United States has acted on its conscience to save the people
>>dying in Somalia. If you can condemn them for acting out of conscience
>>then you should resign your membership in the human race. Even if we
>>do the wrong thing, at least we're doing it for the right reason.
>
>Back during the days of the Viet Nam war the slogan was: "My Country.
>Right or Wrong."  Maybe you could work to bring it back.  Hint: Start 
>with bumper stickers. 
>

It is my country, right or wrong, because it's run by the people
I helped elect. I won't succede from the United States because
they make a mistake, especially if they made the mistake with
good intentions. I will help shoulder the blame, instead of running
off shouting about betrayal by the powers of the US government.

>
>>tell you why I'm not a twit 
>No problem.   Most likely you are a twit because you are young. In 
>some cases people have been known to outgrow it.  But, I'm afraid the 
>are rare. The perscription is: 
>	1) Study very hard. 
>	2) Read a lot of books.  
>	3) Don't believe anything you hear from the news media
>	4) Don't trust anyone in authority.
>
>

1) I do study very hard. However, what you get depends on what you
study. I'm sure, if I'd studied what you studied and vice versa,
our opinions would be reversed.

2) Which books? See #1.

3) If I believed the news media, we wouldn't be arguing, because.
your view is what you'd get from the media.

4) Authority is made up of humanity. I listen to what anybody tells
me (including you) without believeing blindly or tossing it out
without thought.

>-- 
>He who would trade his liberty for  |  Karl Klingman
>short-term security deserves        |  American Research Group, Inc.
>neither...   Ben Franklin           |  emory!slammer!arg!karl


(*note: anything I didn't contest in your last post I won't, because
I don't know enough to say for sure that you're wrong. Also note that,
most of where we disagree, we disagree through a fundamental difference
in our views of humanity and government, and as such, those differences
will never be resolved. *)

All human beings, no matter where or when, are, in their core, equal,
if different. All have the emotions, the wants, the needs, and the
virtues that make up any human being, and all feel the twinges of
those emotions, no matter what course they take in life. Adolf
Hitler was moved to tears by music played in a friend's parlor,
and Abraham Lincoln became a military dictator in pursuit of what
he felt was right.

Once you accept the truth of this, all you have to do is look into
your own soul, and you will never trust nor condemn another human
being again.

This is wisdom.

-Anonymous
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.current-events.somalia