HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Subject: Re: Blitz tournament
Organization: Vanderbilt University 
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:21:54 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21

In <7475@charon.cwi.nl> jansteen@cwi.nl writes:

> LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb) writes:
> 
>> On 31 October 1992 (Saturday) I propose to hold a Blitz Go
>> Tournament on the Berkeley IGS server.

> I have some notes/questions on your proposal though:
> >> 10 minutes/player/game
> Is this sudden-death, so without byo-yomi?
  I must confess to unfamiliarity with the term "byo-yomi."  My guess is that
it refers to the procedure of allowing an additional X seconds per move, as a
Fischer clock does in chess and as is done in shogi.  If so, how does
5min/15sec sound?
  Also, how do you set byo-yomi on IGS?

>> 13x13 board, komi 5.5 
> I would prefer 19x19.

>> Double elimination
>> No handicaps
> A handicap tournament would make it more attractive to join for a wider
> range of Go players. Maybe two groups as well:
>  	... kyu -  4  kyu
> 	 5  kyu - ... dan
  First off, your groups overlap; 4-5kyu are in both.  How about:
Division 1: 4kyu and up
Division 2: 5kyu and below
  With double-elimination and byo-yomi, 19x19 games in the loser's bracket would
cause the tournament to go too long [they will be playing 2 games to every 1
in the winners' bracket].  As a compromise, I suggest 19x19 in the winners'
bracket and 13x13 in the losers' bracket.
  As to handicaps, my concern is that with all the talk of bogus ranks, they
might not be accurate enough.  But in principle, good idea; two rated players
play at the appropriate handicap level, but if either is NR, no handicap.
  Would it be possible to set a threshold where if a player wins a handicap
game by more than X stones, his rating is bumped up (for tournament purposes
only) by 1 step (and the opponent's dropped)?
  Also, could y'all (=you/plural in Southern) send me handicap schedules
for 13x13 and 19x19?  I saw the AGA's 13x13 here on r.g.g, but my system
timed it out.
  BTW, I have heard that 6.5 is a fairer value for komi than 5.5 on 19x19.
(Actually, the study involved said that 7.0 is perfect, but since that allows
ties...) 

>> Entries taken from 18:30 to 18:45 American Central Time
>> Play begins at 19:00
>> Could that be:
> 15:30 to 15:45 American Central Time, and play starts at 16:00	
> That would enable both the Koreans and Europeans to join as well.
  OK. New data:
  Entries:  15:30 to 15:45 AmCST (21.30 to 21.45 GMT) 
  Specifically, I will be on the server during that time; use "tell lipscoja"
to enter and indicate a rank.
  At 16:00, I will come back on and announce pairings, etc.  Please set quiet
to "off" a few minutes before as I would like to use "shout" for announcements.
> Jan van der Steen (3d)                                       


>     -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>      Jan van der Steen                 jansteen@cwi.nl
>      Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science (CWI)
>      Kruislaan 413, 1098 SJ Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Andy Lipscomb
lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
Mt. Juliet Capulets--Ultra Cricket
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: etiquette of time on IGS
From: benton@vax.sonoma.edu
Date: 5 Oct 92 09:03:21 -0800
Organization: Sonoma State University

Lately I've noticed that there seems to be some difference of opinion
on the subject of time for playing games on the IGS. I find it hard 
to play games longer than about 45 mins per side, plus byo-yomi, so I
usually suggest that period or less. When an opponent runs out of 
time, there have been occasions where he requested adding time. I have
complied. I do wonder, though, if this is really fair. In a friendly,
"club" sort of game, of course, we wouldn't keep time at all, but 
games  in clubs seem to go faster anyway. Should both players get equal
amounts of "new" time when one requests it? And how do I avoid turning
a "short" game into a "long" one? 

Also, I've noticed in stats, that some players advise in advance of their
unwillingness to "add" time. Is this the solution?

Regards, 
G.O. Benton 2k
Santa Rosa, CA
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith)
Subject: Re: playing go on the internet
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 19:16:13 GMT

there have been some requests to play a go game over the network
recently.  there is an internet go server (actually 3).  but you
need telnet to be able to connect.

if you do have telnet, you may connect as follows:

    telnet 129.24.14.70 6969
    telnet 128.32.201.46 6969
    telnet 192.33.159.6 6969

these will connect you to lacerta, berkeley and cnam, france
respectively.  it is important to include the port number, 6969,
in the command line.

when you get connected, you will be asked for a name.  when you
choose your name and it is a brand new name, you will be prompted
to enter a password.  you can use anything for a password (well,
avoid control characters! :-) and then you are In.  type help.

if you do not have telnet, then e-mail may be best.  there is a
large list of e-mail go players kept at milton.u.washington.edu
in the public go directory wonderfully managed by adrian.  this
requires ftp, which usually means you also have telnet, so you
probably wouldnt have ftp either!  in which case, casting queries
to this newsgroup is your last chance, here.  however, please try
to use telnet or ftp milton to get the info you need if possible.

i only fear that this may overburden the servers!  so please accept
my apology if such is the case.  the servers are magnificent.

- nate, 14kyu in play, but a lot better in kibitzing for some
strange (HAH!) reason....
From: mark@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Mark Essenburg)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Lost
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:22:00 CDT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

NOTICE OF LOST ADDRESSES
Due to system failure, I lost the addresses for the following.  Please 
reply,
                Steve Tyloc at Kodak
                Kazu at Kyoto University, Japan

I am up and running again guys, and want to continue our E-mail games.  
My address has be re-created and is the same.  

Later, 
mark

--- (Mark Essenburg) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: mark@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
From: yding+@pitt.edu (Yijun Ding)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: ratings algorithm (LONG)
Date: 2 Oct 92 13:41:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1aftt4INNqnj@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Cano) writes:
>
>or play around the rules. It can only put unnecessary extra work on tim and 
>igs administrator (you know who he is, don't you? :-)), which is a courtesy 
>of them. Serious or not, in some sense, depends only on yourself. If you 

Talking about extra work, yes, if there is a rating system.  I have
experience quite a few times, that some people just quit without resign
when in lossing situation.  If a rating system there, I may send mails
to the administrator...  There was an occation, when I was told to wait,
and the other party did login after about 1 hour, but quitted as soon as
I said hi to him ;-)

Anyway, let us enjoy and thankful what igs are now.

-- 
//Yijun Ding, Pittsburgh //Go your way, be happy.
From: adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: xigc 1.8 available on archive site
Date: 3 Oct 92 17:32:24 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

A new version of Steve Coffin's client (formerly called xigs) is now
available on the archive site ftp.u.washington.edu in the directory
public/go/prog.  The filename is xigc_v1.8.sh.Z. 

Steve warned me that this is a beta version, so some people may wish
to wait for 2.0 before upgrading.
From: U50329@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Pros and tourneys
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:25:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92279.152548U50329
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I was wondering if there is any strong feeling about pros playing in AGA
sanctioned and rated tournaments.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Re: Ratings too high in USA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 05:26:48 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <6395@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> yding+@pitt.edu (Yijun Ding) writes:
>I think rating would make people play more seriously. If there is a
>rating, I know that I would not have played some when I can hardly open
>my eye :), nor would I try to kill without save my group :).

I don't know about you, but I tend to play Go for fun and enjoyment.
Leave the serious play for tourneys. The IGS is for fun.
r.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: fred@dickens.com (Fred R Stearns)
Subject: Max Live Groups (without seki)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:55:21 GMT
Organization: Dickens Data Systems, Inc.

I was able to get 30 live groups on a 19 board, without the use
of seki.  I think it might be possible to get 31, but I haven't
been able to do it, yet.  Here's 30 in Smart-Go...

(
;
GaMe[1]
AddBlack[as][aq][am][ak][ag][ae][br][bq][bm][bl][bk][bg][be][cs][cr][cm][ck][cg][cf][ce][cd][cb][ca][dn][dm][dl][dg][de][dc][da][es][er][eo][en][ek][ej][eg][ef][ec][eb][fs][fq][fp][fk][fi][fh][fb][fa][gs][gr][gp][gk][gj][gh][hq][hp][hm][hl][hi][hh][he][hd][ha][io][in][il][ig][if][id][ib][ia][jo][jm][jl][jg][je][jd][jb][ks][kr][ko][kn][kk][kj][kg][kf][kc][ka][ls][lq][lp][lk][li][lh][lc][lb][la][ms][mr][mp][mk][mj][mh][mc][nq][np][nm][nl][ni][nh][ne][nd][oo][on][ol][og][of][od][po][pm][pl][pg][pe][pd][qs][qr

AddWhite[ap][an][aj][ah][ad][ab][bp][bn][bj][bh][bd][bc][bb][ba][cq][cp][cn][cj][ci][ch][cc][ds][dr][dq][do][dk][dj][dh][dd][eq][ep][em][el][ei][eh][ee][ed][fo][fn][fl][fg][ff][fd][fc][go][gm][gl][gg][ge][gd][gc][gb][ga][hs][hr][ho][hn][hk][hj][hg][hf][hc][hb][is][iq][ip][ik][ii][ih][ic][js][jr][jp][jk][jj][jh][jc][kq][kp][km][kl][ki][kh][ke][kd][lo][ln][ll][lg][lf][ld][mo][mm][ml][mg][me][md][mb][ma][ns][nr][no][nn][nk][nj][ng][nf][nc][nb][os][oq][op][ok][oi][oh][oc][oa][ps][pr][pp][pk][pj][ph][pc][pb][pa

PLayer[W]
SiZe[19]
Letters[aa][ea][ja][na][sa][bf][gf][jf][mf][pf][sf][bi][fj][ij][lj][oj][rj][al][fm][im][lm][om][rm][dp][bs][fr]
)
-- 
Fred R. Stearns -- fred@dickens.com
Everything's a kludge!
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: xigc (was Re: Go Server (and Meijin game))
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:27:55 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden

In article <475@chorus.chorus.fr> jloup@chorus.fr (Jean-loup Gailly) writes:
>Jonathan Cano <jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:
>
>> What I would like is to be able to (in addition
>> to the above xigc feature) do is simply play the moves of
>> a game I'm playing or observing back and forth
>
>xgospel can do this. It is much better than xigs. However the current
>version is not able to go back to the start of a game if you start
>observing it in the middle. The next version will be able to do this.
>There are also a few minor problems with the current version of xgospel, 
>but despite them I still prefer xgospel to xigs. This may of course
>change with future versions of both programs. It is a pity that the
>authors could not agree to combine their talent on a single program,
>which would have been much better than the two existing ones.

xigs is better because you still have the prompt, and can see what
happends in your ascii window. You also avoid all those
bulky window with 90 % of the time worthless information.
I my opinion xigs is clearly the best choice in every respect,
except that xgospel can make move backward and forward in the same
game. Maybe some people also thinks it's an advantage that
xgospel can display more than one match at a time.

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
From: schraudo@cs.ucsd.edu (Nici Schraudolph)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: More about go variants.
Date: 28 Sep 92 04:51:11 GMT

Regarding optimal play on very small Hex-Go boards, I wrote:

>>I believe that [black also wins] on the size 4 board, but would
>>like to see others confirm or refute this, since it's a close call --
>>it seems like white can *almost* invade successfully.

wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:

>...but I'm not quite sure what this means. Surely if Black can win but white
>can live on size 3, then both these will obtain on size 4 ? I would have
>thought this was clear;   still, I have not investigated in detail what the
>optimal result should be - it looks quite hard.

Sorry, I should have expressed myself more clearly.  What I meant is that
if Black uses the strategy that seems optimal on still smaller boards
(namely, occupy the center then extend across the board with bamboo joints)
s/he will end up leaving the back of their territory exposed to a White
invasion (which may or may not be successful -- that's the close call).

Presumably Black could prevent such an invasion by playing somewhat less
aggressive across the center of the board, playing for less territory yet
still end up with a few points' lead.  The invasion question is interesting
nonetheless since it marks the point where the purely greedy strategy for
Black breaks down.  Now does that happen at size 4 already, or only from
size 5 up?

-- 
Nicol N. Schraudolph, CSE Dept. |  Indolence is heaven's ally here,
Univ. of California, San Diego  |  And energy the child of hell:
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114, U.S.A. |  The Good Man pouring from his pitcher clear
nici%cs@ucsd.{edu,bitnet,uucp}  |  But brims the poisoned well.   - Melville
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: complexity of go
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:10:23 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden

In article <3aeoqB5w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> mark@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Mark Essenburg) writes:
>I love this conversation.
>
>How complex is go.  Especially when compared to chess.  Neat question.  
>The answer is quite obvious, I think.  Go is far more complex.  The 
>gentleman who pointed out that computers (even home desktop units) can 
>play a decent game of chess.  But what is the highest rating of a 
>computer Go game?  12 kyu?  11?  Is there even a dan level computer game? 

10 kyu

>The game of go has more freedom of movement and possible combinations 
>that the Earth has atoms!  

Universe.

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
From: bacchus@mcl.ucsb.edu (Graham Linn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Mac Go playing
Keywords: go,mac
Date: 2 Oct 92 08:09:22 GMT

peaking of Macintosh go playing, has anyone used TOYOGO over a modem? How does
it work? Any good?  I am also curious on the text interface with this board.
Does anyone exchange moves?  I am a beginner at go and would like to play,
seing how it is hard to find the type of person who would play go here in
sunny Santa Barbara!                   Thanks!
												bacchus@mcl.ucsb.edu
From: pollansw@cse.fau.edu (Warren Pollans)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: mgt22 on Mac?
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:57:55 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA

Has anyone compiled the mgt22 program on a macintosh?

Warren

(pollansw@cse.fau.edu)
From: t68@nikhefh.nikhef.nl (Jos Vermaseren)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: ratings algorithm
Date: 30 Sep 92 20:46:15 GMT
Organization: Nikhef-H, Amsterdam (the Netherlands).

In article <1992Sep30.165646.17603@parc.xerox.com>, lamping@parc.xerox.com (John Lamping) writes:
> Jos Vermaseren writes:
> > A good probability function turns out to be
> > 
> > P(x) = (1/2)*(2/3)^(2*x)
> > in which x is the difference in numbers of dans or kyu's (positive)
> > and P(x) the chance that the weaker player wins.
> 
> This surprises me, because I have always thought that a one stone
> handicap difference matters more at the dan level than at the kyu level.
> That is, it seems like changing the handicap by one stone increases the
> chances of the person recieving the handicap more if dan level players
> are playing than if kyu level players are playing.
> 
> That would suggest that the factor of (2/3) should higher for dan level
> competitors and lower for kyu level competitors.  Has anyone looked at
> this?  Does someone have me raw data they could give me so I could check
> for myself?

Yes, it amazed me too at the time. I had expected that this factor
would be a function of the absolute strength of the players. I had more than
2000 games (actually I believe even more than 3000 games) with about 300
players at that time and made the plot of registered strength versus
measured strength in order to measure this dependency. One can guess
my surprise when I found a straight line from 5 dan to 15 kyu. The slope
of the line determines the 2/3 (which by sheer luck I had put in as a
first guess because some people claimed that might be good.

Some people claim that an simple exponential fall off isn't steep enough,
and that it should be exp(-a*x^2), but then again, one should never
have a very strong player loose and sometimes it happens because he falls
asleep. There are still human factors.

Why the handicaps and the probabilities are so well in agreement I have
never been able to understand. It is probably related to the following:
When a 5 kyu looks at a game between two 10 kyu's most of the moves she/he
sees are wrong. Blunder after blunder takes place and in the end the game
may still be close. Now the 5 kyu plays another 5 kyu and a 1 dan watches.
Same story. Next two shodans play and a 5 dan watches. same again.
And then a professional comes to pick apart a game between two 5 dans.
How can it be that if the blunders are so large the statistics is so
delicately balanced that the game remains close (at least in the eyes
of the contenders and in the final score). For me this is a great mystery.

Jos Vermaseren
(4 dan who gets his games occasionally picked apart)
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: xigc (was Re: Go Server (and Meijin game))
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:23:22 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, G|teborg, Sweden

In article <10753@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> murray@sun13.scri.fsu.edu (John Murray) writes:
>In article <1992Sep15.183706.17836@chpc.utexas.edu> phjq762@chpc.utexas.edu (Rodney Kinney) writes:
><In article <19582rINN3l3@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Cano) writes:
><>What I would like is to be able to (in addition
><>to the above xigc feature) do is simply play the moves of
><>a game I'm playing or observing back and forth - this is
><>especially useful when I begin observing a game that has
><>already gone 80+ moves :^)
><
><	I have to agree that this is one heck of a desirable feature.  So
><much do I like being able to do this that I often consider forsaking graphics
><altogether, and just using the ascii client, which seems to be the only one 
><with this capability.
>
>I think the problem is that the information just isn't there. The server
>does not send the whole move record when you begin observing a game, it only
>sends the current position.
>
>In other words, the client writers can't do a thing about this until/unless
>the server people modify or add commands to the server.

But when you do refresh, you get al the moves, and you could store
them in a pointer or array. And then redisplay them!

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
From: nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: A note on the archive site
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:57:52 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <adrian.717960666@milton> adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano) writes:
>
>I have noticed that people have continued to call it 
>   milton.u.washington.edu
>
>The local computing department has plans to scrap milton, so while the
>archive site will (hopefully) continue on some machine, it won't be
>milton.  You will need to use the ftp.u.washington.edu address to be
>sure that you connect to the right machine.  

(couldnt help it)... So Paradise wont be lost afterall....:-)

- nate, the clumsy informant, prone to mispeaking
From: mdobbins@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: ratings algorithm (LONG)
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:23:04 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation, Devon Engineering Offices

In article <1aftt4INNqnj@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Cano) writes:
>However, I think people have misunderstandings on rating in igs and playing
>serious games. An official rating system would not make people play seriously
>or play around the rules. It can only put unnecessary extra work on tim and 
>igs administrator (you know who he is, don't you? :-)), which is a courtesy 
>of them. 

I think one of the requirements for a rating system on the igs is that
it be "auto-magic" and cause no additional work for any administrator. 
Hopefully, the code for it would be small also.
From: yding+@pitt.edu (Yijun Ding)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: ratings algorithm
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:02:40 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <6651@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> yding+@pitt.edu (Yijun Ding) writes:
>The rating system for Chess is available.  Even it uses four digits, the
>last seems to be zero always.  It can be used for Go as well by adding

Just realized that the last digits in chess rating is also used. A
simple rating algorithm exist on ICS (the chess server).  The idea is
still feasible.

>two (or three) decimal places to the Go rating, like a rank of 3.14 dan.
>The only problem maybe that 2.92k is a better player than 2.12k, and
>of course, better than 3k.

Or 3.14k = -2.14 dan :)

-- 
//Yijun Ding, Pittsburgh //Go your way, be happy.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: A reminder
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:32:06 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury

Just reminding go players, many of whom become annoyed when articles about 
other games are posted here, that the call-for-votes is out on
 
                       rec.games.abstract
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please remember to vote for this, to avoid having these irrelevant articles
in  rec.games.go  any more.

Thank you for your attention,    Bill Taylor.      wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz 
Xref: sparky rec.games.go:2006 rec.games.chess:8355
From: tennis@ziff.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.chess
Subject: Shogi program from ICD 800-645-4710
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:53:12 EDT
Organization: Ziff-Davis, Medford MA

Whilst cruising thru the Oct 1992 Chess Life, I saw an ad for a shogi
program called Shogi Master.

ICD 1-800-645-4710

Tony Ennis