From: jcarroll@ferris.cray.com (Jeff Carroll)
Subject: Re: Starbuck's - Prices are in the stars
Originator: jcarroll@ferris
Reply-To: jcarroll@ferris.cray.com (Jeff Carroll)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:47:49 CDT


In article <1992Jul22.184933.26374@samba.oit.unc.edu>, usenet@samba.oit.unc.edu writes:
|> In article <1992Jul20.183604.6099@cbnewse.cb.att.com> tjks@cbnewse.cb.att.com (Tim Kloth) writes:
|> >A Starbuck's recently opened near me (Wheaton, IL).  I went
|> >in.  I got sticker shock at the prices!  I like coffee but
|> >$8.00/lb and up!  If they roasted in-house, and if they
|> >were sure the beans were arabica, and if they didn't try to tell
|> >me French Roast was darker than espresso roast, then maybe I would
|> >give them another chance.  Maybe the problem was new sales-droids.
|> >I don't see anything that distinguishes them from the zillion other
|> >gourmet coffee stores.

French roast *is* darker than espresso roast. If you're drinking espresso
that's made from beans roasted darker than French, you must have learned
espresso-drinking somewhere where they use really cheap beans that they have
to burn to make palatable.

Starbucks (in my experience) absolutely refuses to compromise on quality.
Their varietals are the finest in the world, bar none; their espresso roast
is too dark, but not as dark as their French. Never (in the course of buying
more Starbucks coffee than some people can carry on their backs) have I had
coffee that was more than five days out of the roaster when I got it. Not having
firsthand knowledge of how they supply the Chicago stores, I can't speak
authoritatively on where and when the beans in the Wheaton store are roasted,
but I'd guess that with the number of outlets they have in Chicago, they must
have a local roasting plant.

Everything you get from Starbucks is 100% arabica. Keep in mind that in order
to open something like an espresso bar, you can't really afford to import people,
so the people you encounter in the Wheaton Starbucks are likely to be Wheatonites. In the Seattle area Starbucks is very particular about hiring
intelligent people and training them to be knowledgeable about coffee, but
even in Seattle I once ran into a Starbucks newbie who overcharged me and
gave me substandard espresso. I mentioned it to a veteran barista, who apologized
and gave me a freebie (complain! They have printed coupons.)

In short, when in Wheaton, don't be surprised if you wind up dealing with
the likes of Billy Graham. Personally, I think Wheaton is far more deserving
of Gloria Jean's than of Starbucks - and there's a *big* difference.

And the espresso prices are *very* competitive - in Seattle and Portland, anyway.
If they're higher than $1/shot, it's a good bet that the beans are being roasted in the Airport Way plant in Seattle and air-freighted to Chicago, at least twice
a week, I'd think.
 
|> I like Starbucks. I really do. I've tried gobs of so-called "gourmet"
|> coffees and none really compare, IMHO. And how much coffee do you
|> drink each month that $2 per pound makes a difference? The beans are
|> very carefully selected at Starbucks, meaning that they actually
|> travel to the production countries and taste each crop before
|> purchasing it, as opposed to buying it from a distributor, so who is
|> more sure of their beans? And their house blend is simply scrupmtious
|> (again, IMHO).

I think the Starbucks literature has a little too much Juan Valdez in it,
but the quality of the product cannot be denied. If it doesn't taste good
to you at home, then start drinking the cafe du jour at the store until you
learn how to do it right.
 
|> Read their brochures -- they really know what they are doing. I'm not
|> saying that other establishments are clueless, mind you, just that
|> I've not come across one that comes close. I'll try peets, tho.

OK, I'll say it - the other chains are pretty clueless. Almost all of them.
Peet's coffee is pretty good, but I've only had it out of the bag, a few days
old. Three other Seattle roasters come to mind that have espresso as good as
or better than Starbucks, but not as dark, in increasing order of darkness:

Caffe Mauro - my personal favorite. Becoming available nationwide at better
	      espresso carts.

Torrefazione Italia - just a touch darker than Mauro, but also very good, with
		      a distinctive flavor. Also getting some distribution in
	              the East.

Veneto's - a darker roast, but not quite as dark as Starbucks. Available outside
	   Seattle only by mail order, as far as I know.

I personally am not fond of the other roasts in Seattle, the best known of
which is probably SBC (formerly Stewart Brothers, before the Stewart family of
Chicago wielded their corporate counsel).

I'd also like to take this opportunity to recommend a few places I've
encountered around the country that are *not* clueless:

La Creme, Dallas: Probably the best espresso I've had outside Seattle.
	          It's wonderful, and worth the money, but after you've
	          had it you'll never complain about Starbucks' prices again.

Swing's here in Washington has pretty good espresso and French roasts, right
		up there with the first division; the folks out at The Coffee
		Bean in Leesburg (VA) produce very good stuff; but the best
		espresso I've had in the DC metro area is at 

Caffe Northwest	(at Reston Town Center, Chevy Chase Pavilion, and coming soon
		to Georgetown). These people know their stuff, and I have to
		confess they've become good friends of mine. They airfreight 		                  Mauro's espresso roast from Seattle, a couple of times
		a week.

Blue Mountain Coffee House, Minneapolis: Above and beyond being damn good
	coffee, this place is an *experience*. Tony, the proprietor, has a
	small Gaggia but concentrates on African and Latin American varietals,
	which he roasts locally somewhat less darkly than Starbucks and brews
	in French presses. About $2 for a bladderful of your choice. Ginger
	beer and other Jamaican comestibles also available, in an environment
	of great authenticity. Last time I was there it was Tony's birthday,
	and it was a great party.

My last trip home to Seattle, I drove past a strip mall in which there were
four shops with espresso bars, each a different brand, each with a sign
bearing the logo of their roast out in front of the store. Almost like
Florence or Milan, but with all-arabica coffee.

|> BTW, in order to taste the differences that a good coffee makes, you
|> should make sure that you have a good coffee maker (see
|> rec.food.drinks for all the assorted varieties of coffee makers),
|> which means that the coffee brews in under 4 minutes at close to
|> boiling.

Throw out your Mr. Coffee. If you're still using one of those, no wonder your
coffee tastes like s***.
 
|> Everything that I've said goes for the Starbucks in Seattle, so you
|> Illinoisy folks will have to judge for 'yerselves. If you complain to
|> the owners in Seattle, I'm sure that they will change things in IL.

That's been my experience. I was just at Starbucks in Beaverton, OR, a couple
of months ago, and it was just as good as Seattle.
 
Jeff Carroll
carroll@cray.com
Xref: sparky rec.food.restaurants:1635 co.general:1056