From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???)
Date: 22 Aug 92 04:48:19 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.


[First of all, I want to thank Elf Sternberg for ratcheting down the
tension level quite a bit.  He has written a thoughtful piece here, and 
I will try to return the compliment by avoiding sarcasm and unnecessary
baiting.]



(elf)
/   Now wait before you say that; I do time for a Speaker's Bureau,
/doing "coming out" lectures to classrooms.  I bet you'd probably
/identify me as "straight looking."  I tend to be several years out of
/fashion, usually a day's growth of stubble on my face.  I prefer jeans
/and t-shirt (or collar, if really necessary).  Most of my t-shirts tend
/to feature drawings of semi-nude or fully-nude women, mostly because
/I'm a big fan of Ken Sample and Brian O'Connel (two artists you've
/probably never heard of) 

I have.


(elf)
/and that's what they put on T-shirts (though
/if you come back to my place, I'll show you some of Ken's homoerotic
/stuff... very sweet.).

I always liked the paintings on the wall of Fort Seattle next to the 
door; did you see them?



(elf)
/   In short, I don't fit _any_ of the stereotypes you find so
/distasteful, and you'd probably, at least on the surface, approve.

/   I don't want your approval.


That's healthy.  But not everyone is as mature or open minded.  
And some of the less mature need to be educated, sometimes.  We don't
always have the luxury of associating with enlightened, open-minded
people. Sometimes we gotta fly with the jerks, too.  And sometimes that
means bringing their slow asses along on the road to adulthood.  I just
find that task easier if we don't shock the shit out of them.



(elf)
/   _I_ am out to educate people; that's my self-assigned role.  I'm
/loud, exhibitionistic, and good at public speaking, so I volunteer my
/time and so far on five occasions (so far, I've only been at this a
/few months) people have asked me to stand up and talk about what it
/means to be bisexual.

Just curious; how has the reaction been so far?  I am wondering if
people are more generous to a bisexual than to a predominantly homosexual
person.  Half-kinship thing.


/(elf)
/   Diversity and integration... "We are everywhere," and the ones they
/might like the least look more like them than the ones you fear the
/most.

Suppose I were in Japan, trying to sell things to the Japanese market.
Should I go into that market, full of American bravado and brashness,
and say "to hell with the Japanese culture"?  
I think that if someone wants to make favorable inroads into markets or
people's opinions, then occasionally we have to bend a little bit and not 
act like a bull in a china shop.  I mean, I don't hate *everything* about
straight society, and I certainly don't hate straights as a group of people.
I think the ability to use a fine-tooth comb and separate the good from the
bad is very, very, VERY important.  Lumping straight society together into
one Big, Evil Thing is simplistic and doesn't earn us much respect.




(elf)
/   Do I believe coming out of the closet can be made any easier?  Of
/course.  Do I have a responsibility for facilitating that move?  Of
/course.  But I disagree that Tracy Horne is a positive role model and
/Harvey Feirstein is not.  They both have their places in the scheme of
/things.

I plead ignorance; I don't know who Feirstein is.


(elf)
/   If there _really_ are as many handsome, masculine, and closeted gays
/as you claim, why don't you all do yourselves a favor?  Start with
/yourself... get a bunch of NCOD cards and hand them around.  On October
/11th, you can all come out of the closet, prove to the world that
/"[you] are everywhere!" and make the nelly, queeny queers look like the
/silly minority.


Elf, truly:  I don't WANT to make anyone look silly.  

It's each person's decision to stay in or come out of the closet; I can
encourage them, but I cannot (and should not) force them.  I don't believe
in "forced outings".  

And, ultimately, most of these people do not want to be "out" because the 
people they work with carry negative impressions of gays.  Whether these 
impressions are justified, or whether they are vicious media hype, it's 
still the impression that they carry.  

You will probably say, "The only way to fight these negative stereotypes
is for nonstereotypical gays to come out and refute the impressions"; in 
fact, I think that is what you said in the above paragraph.
But what good does it do to refute this impression, when right around the 
corner at the local bar, someone is acting out the very same impression?
For every leak in the dam you successfully patch up, two more spring up
to take its place.


RE:  NCOD.  To draw a parallel:
One of my friends is a fundamentalist Xtian.  Now, he and I don't
agree on a lot of things (guess which things?), but occasionally he has
flashes of wisdom.  He refuses to put the little fish sticker on his car,
or wear the little fish / cross lapel pins, because the symbols have been
so overused and carry a lot of negative impressions.  The Pat Robertson crusades
have tarnished a lot of Xtian things, for example.  Now my friend believes
in the basic Xtian message, but the display of outward symbols carries
so much emotional and political baggage with it, that he finds it actually
works *against* him to wear / display it.  People see it and assume he's
a rabid evangelical (which, for all his faults, he is not).
I tend to look on the established pink triangle / NCOD stuff the same way.  
Do I make an effort to come out to people?  Yes.  In my own way, *one 
person at a time*.

When I "come out" to someone, it's usually someone I have known for awhile.  
This gives them the ability to see me in a non-gay perspective, and it gives 
them a frame of reference by which to judge me.  If the first thing I say
to someone is, "Hi, I'm Bob, and I'm gay", that tends to flavor everything
from that point on.  
When I feel like it's proper (or when I feel like they're about to guess 
anyhow), I tell them.  I find it to be very effective; people are not 
threatened, because I'm the guy they have been working with, or partied 
with, or gone to school with.  "Yeah, that's Bob--we're friends.  I just 
found out he was gay."  Now they may say stupid things like "you're okay 
in spite of being gay", but that at least shows me that *some* progress was 
made, and there's always tomorrow to work on the rest of their attitude.

I take the attitude of the Mormon church:  don't try to evangelize your 
cause;  just try to make friends.  The conversion will be easier to get if 
they believe you are genuine and honest, and can relate to you in some way. 


/(elf)
/   But I know which group I'll be drinking with that night.

Your loss.  We tell great war stories and get totally out of control.




(elf)
/And until you can demonstrate that the cause you
/champion is more in need of empowerment then the one you denigrate, I
/will continue on my present course.

My "proof" is in the lack of real political progress.  We should have had
an equal protection law (national, that is) by now.  We should no longer
have a military ban on gays by now.  They're both still with us.
Do you believe that much progress (social or political) has been made?
I am pessimistic.



/(elf)
/p.s.  You are correct; the Eagle did burn down a few months ago.  But
/if you kept up with the news, you'd know that they're planning on
/reopening.


I thought the Ramrod was the replacement / reopening.