Newsgroups: misc.kids

>/ hpcupt1:misc.kids / mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine) /  8:43 am  Nov 12, 1992 /
>
>I teach my children obedience for one simple reason:  I practice obedience 
>myself (obedience to God first, but also obedience in lesser situations to
>other people).  As an adult, I found learning obedience to be a very hard
>thing; for my children I hope it will be a bit easier for them but I am
>under no delusions that obedience is a total piece of cake for them to learn.

	[...]
>
>whom I obey.  This holds true in my marriage as well -- once I made a
>concrete decision to learn to submit to my husband (after we had been
>married for nine years or so), and learned what that really meant, I
>have found a lot more freedom to do what I want to do and be what I
>want to be.  My husband has turned into a loving, responsible husband.
>Though I view submission as fundamentally different from obedience in
>certain aspects, the act of submitting *has* taught me a lot about
>obedience as well.
>
>Because I practice obedience, I have some idea of what kinds of people
>are easy to obey, and what kinds of people are not.  Also, what situations
>I find frustrating.  As a parent, I try my best to exercise authority in a
>way that makes my children *want* to obey, not a way that makes them
>resentful.  I work on teaching them not only to obey, but also how
>to obey and how to respectfully appeal to someone who has authority over
>them.  
>

	[...]

You are right in that we have totally very different views on life and
how to live it. I respect your beliefs but can't agree with them at all.
Here is why, if you are interested.

I believe obediance is very negative and an even dangerous subject. Negative 
in that it stifles the difference in people and their right to think , feel
and chose.  They are taught to depend on another persons do's and don'ts
rather than their own. Granted that they will eventually, internalize all
these rules, but these rules will be imposed rules never the less. Also, I
don't beleive that parents know better than their children in all areas
of life. If this was true and children had copied exactly what their parents
told them to, their would be little evolution in human history. 

I believe obediance is dangerous, because the child learns to follow someone
elses reasoning (or emotions) rather than their own and this  will not  stop
with only their parents.  they will not work on developping their own reasoning
and they will be very much in danger of "obeying" anyone
with higher power or might. This person can be any adult when they are
children, and any one with with higher power when they are adults. If you are
interested in this aspect I would refer you to the analysis of why the
German people followed Hitler and did the most "unhuman" things , from a 
psychological point of view, by Alice Miller. I have personally seen the 
consequences of a whole nation going under when the wrong person is at the
power point and the majority of people have been taught to "obey authority".

>P.S.  (To the original poster)  I wanted to explain why I am sending this
>reply three days after I read the original posting.  Monday I stay home
>with the kids, and may get  to log on from home for a few minutes.  I
>love being home with them, but it does eat into my home time at other points.
>I was then up all Monday night because my husband had a kidney stone.  I
>read your posting somewhere in there, and found it *very* frustrating to 
>receive a plea that went against my well-thought-out discipline system,
>especially when my husband was writhing in agony.  Finally he got carted
>away in the ambulance somewhere (they forgot to tell me what hospital).
>Fortunately the ordeal was over by about noon, but I was still to frazzled
>to even attempt a civil reply.  Then Wednesday my kids had no day care,
>but for some reason Mark and I both had to work.  AAAARRRRGGGGHHH.  So
>all in all, the timing of your letter was for me, the pits.
>

I also had a very difficult night last night and had almost no sleep , both
my daughter and husband are sick and I work full time. However, I see no 
relation between "caring" for other people and any notion of "obediance". I
DO NOT obey my husband. I share my life with him. We respect each other, as
well as love each other.  I have chosen to care for my daughter and do it
with as much love and patience as I possibly can, and when I fail I do not
allow myslef to vent it on her. Every timne that I have been angry at her,
I have learned to ask myself why, and have always found a reason related to
myself rather than to her (usually when I somehow did not feel good about
myslef).  To me it is as simple as that. 

I would like to continue our discussion, but would not like to do so against
your wishes. It would be useless for use both. Email me if you want to.
Newsgroups: misc.kids