From: pjm@anegada.sps.mot.com (Patrick J. McGuinness)
Subject: Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin TX
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:46:01 GMT

garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:
>john@anasazi.com                 writes...
>> 
>>In article <1992Sep2.012357.10369@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:

> credit
>>Ronald Reagan with winning the fight?
>
>The AFL-CIO sent millions to the Solidarity Movement in Poland. How much
>did Reagan send?

TIME magazine a few months back had an exclusive report on the Reagan
administration's behind-the-scenes support of Solidarity. Reagan worked
with the Pope to provide financial, logistic and moral (spritiual?!)
support. It was very interesting.  Lech Walesa has given credit to
Ronald Reagan for helping his movement, and helping to overthrow the
communist regimes of Eastern Europe; he knows what he's talking about,
from first-hand experience.

> How about the fact that Gorbachev
>>credit's Reagan's policies with forcing him to introduce the reforms that
>>ultimately lead to the collapse of the USSR?
>
>Long before Gorbachev instituted those reforms, there were stories in 
>the newspapers of how potatoes were rotting in the fields in the Ukraine
>because there wasn't enough boxes and crates to put them in.

Uh huh. And if you read the reports of "experts" and "academics"
like Galbraith or Cohen, their society was as economically efficient,
their Government as well-respected as our own. They were wrong of
course, but we only found that out when the veil of Communist
orthodoxy was lifted.


> Reagan had three policies that
>>had a strong effect:
>>  -support of insurgent movements against communist regimes (the Reagan 
>>   doctrine)
>
>This goes all the way back to 1919, and it was done dozens, if not hundreds
>of times before Reagan ever came to office. If you'll recall, we even
>invaded Russia itself, along with the U.K. and several other countries,
>in 1919-21 to try to overthrow the Bolsheviks. This doctrine was 
>instituted and carried out many times long before Reagan was anything 
>more than a B actor. This is not to say that I support the doctrine,
>just that I acknowledge it. 

>>  -support of an arms buildup - especially SDI
>
>Reagan's arms buildup began under Carter. The arms race itself began
>under Truman.
>
>>  -public condemnation of the Soviet system as evil.
>
>You'll recall that this was done many times in the 50's. It was
>also done many times before and after that, by everyone from 
>politicians down (or up).
>
>>]	Let's get real people. Reagan and Bush just happened to be
>>]on the watch when the collapse came.
>> 
>>Nice try, but the evidence is against you. Go ask a Pole, or a Russian,
>>whether they think Reagan's policies didn't have a major factor in the
>>collapse of the USSR.
>
>Go ask an Afghani who kicked the Russians out their country. Go ask a 
>Lithuanian who kicked the Russains out of their country. Ask any Finlander
>how many American's died while fighting Russian's while Helsinki was
>bombed. It is arrogant to think that we were responsible for the 
>collapse of the USSR.

And it is insulting to find that those who opposed certain beneficial
policies, now crow about how the results of those policies were
actually "inevitable".
Nothing is inevitable.
Ideas are important.
Actions have consequences.

No, America wasn't solely responsible for "winning" the cold war.
But because we were there, and because the right leaders like Reagan
were there, the forces of freedom and democracy in these countries
were given hope and sustenance.

---
Pat

Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:42691 ca.politics:7212