From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 16:50:49 GMT

In article <23541@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, irritated old clueless white boy) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.132252.19018@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>>  So according to you being white confers absolutely no advantage
>>  in America, right? 
>No, as you are well aware, that's not what I said.  I'm very
>disappointed that you have to resort to implying I've
>said something I haven't, in order to argue against my
>point, which remains that the "value" of being "white" is
>entirely overstated, and that for most of us white trash,
>it's VERY little advantage over you, so little that it
>doesn't matter.  Yes, the discrimination takes different
>forms, so what?  Two wrongs don't make a right.

  According to you, one part in a million.  So infinitesimal
  as to be practically no advantage.  Just enough advantage
  so that when a bunch of laid-off autoworkers come around
  swinging baseball bats looking for a victim, they'd walk
  right past you.  Yes, the discrimination takes different
  forms, one's dead, one's just looked over, so what?
>
>>  So why don't you trade in your white skin
>>  for a black or yellow one?
>And, while I'm at it, pick up a different culture or three?
>Change who I am?  Become a "negative banana"?  Come on!

  But you seem to be such a "wanna-be".  I mean, you want
  to convince us how you've been a victim of racism too.
  So why not switch places for a day so you can really
  feel like one of us?   Besides, we like "negative bananas"  :-)
>How is it that you may ask me to change my identity and use
>the fact I cannot as evidence that I am either a liar
>or a fool? I do not ask YOU to change your identity, culture,
>or anything else, except your treatment of me.
>
>Quite aside from the impossibility of your question, which
>makes your question outright dismissive and dishonest at
>the best, you beg the point of why you may expect me
>to submerge my identity, and you set up a dishonest rhetorical
>construct that uses its impossibility to imply that I am
>somehow guilty.

  This question has been taken up by social scientists.
  One did an experiment where he coloured himself, did his
  hair and walked through the South as a Black man, and wrote
  down his experiences.  

  This situation is also set up in classes on racism where
  different groups are arbitrarily assigned different color
  armbands that they must wear around the clock.  Members
  of the class are told how to treat each other according
  to the color on the armbands.  This exercise is so that
  people who do not ordinarily suffer from racism are exposed
  to how it feels, even if in a pretend environment.
>
>I'm white, face it, ozone challenged and all, and like it
>or not, it's as a white I've experienced the various
>forms of "isms" I have.  Why do you deny that?  In
>denying my point of view without discussing it, by taking
>cheap shots at me, dismissing my issues a-priori, you
>show that you do not consider me equally human.  Thanks
>a whole lot.  I've had some other conversations on the
>net, to the tune 'but you didn't get beat up when you
>were a kid', (yes, unfortunately, I did, rather reliably),
>and so on.  Most of these people can accept the fact
>that I know what happened to me as a child. Why can't
>YOU accept that?

  No one is asking you to deny yourself.  Just walking
  a mile in someone else's shoes, before denying what
  they experienced as a child.  We all know what happened
  to you as a child and we know that white people can be
  just as oppressive to each other as they are to minorities.
  We accept that and thank you for providing such illuminating
  experiences.  Unfortunately this group is soc.culture.asian.america
  and most of us want to get back to discussing issues that
  we faced growing up without having to provide tit-for-tat
  an identical incident that happened to some poor white
  kid from the wrong side of the track.
>
>
>>  He asked white people this question:
>
>>  "How much money would you want if someone were to change you
>>  to be Black?"  And the average amount stated was $10 million.
>>  Presumably as compensation for the advantages that whites enjoy.
>
>Of course, this assumes that the answers 
>1) No way. I'm me!
>and
>2) How ridiculous a question!
>
>were somehow factored in?   Look, this "survey" you show
>is intended to do nothing but start a race war.  It's a silly,
>unanswerable question that asks someone to give up their
>identity.  Few will do that, skin color regardless.
>Some will fear (perhaps with good reason, being racists, and fearing
>their particular behavior) racism, more will realize
>the question for the stupid baiting that it represents and
>reply absurdly or not at all.  Given that, the question is
>impossible, and your citing of it, when you must realize that,
>is simple ill will.

  I don't know.  Someone gave the name of the professor
  and will get back to us with the name of the book.  Perhaps
  you can read the book and give us a review.
>
>Clare, I'm very disappointed that you've misstated my points
>for the sole purpose of dismissing my points.  I resent your actions very
>much; I regard them as hostile and ill-intended actions.  They, like other
>behaviors shown here, are over any line of "fair debate" or
>"civilized behavior" and I can and will not accept them.

  I'm sorry you're disappointed.  I'm not dismissing your points.
  I agree that you have suffered tremendously in the past from
  your humble background and laud your achievements to become a
  reknowned research scientist.  I will even concede that your
  1 part in a million advantage from being white didn't help
  you one iota, and that you had to do everything despite all
  odds trying to hold you back.  However I feel that that one
  part in a million sometimes holds the difference between life
  and death (as that Vietnamese American 19 year old found out).

  I'm sorry that you cannot accept the behaviors shown here.
  But as you must know from your vast experience with net news,
  your only options are to edit your kill file better, or unsubscribe
  if you cannot handle the uncivilized behavior.  
>
>They constitute simple dehumanization, which is never justifiable
>whether caused by racism or some other ill foundation.

  Ignoring you would be more dehumanizing than attempting to
  address your concerns.  We just don't see things from the
  same viewpoint and we cannot because we don't have the same
  pair of eyes.  But that doesn't mean I don't see you as human.
  Perhaps those people who oppressed you in your boyhood didn't
  see you as human, but I can assure you that most of the readers
  of this group are only too aware of how human you are.
>-- 
> Bush    *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
>   vs       *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
> Clinton  --    *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
> Just Say !NO!       *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american