From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Subject: Re: Jesus & the Sin of the World
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:14:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.130821.7266@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.212511.8879@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug26.130657.7148@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>> What does the Scripture say?  It says "God so loved the world that He
>> gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish
>> but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
>> 
>> It is for *whoever* believes.  No stipulations except believes that Jesus
>> died for them, confessing their sins.          ^^^^^^ 

>Notice that magic word? No stipulations EXCEPT.... There are stipulations - 
>the "free gift" has a price.  

I have no problem with this.  Just out of curiousity, Sean, what would you
see as the cost associated with this?  And why is it a price you would not
want to pay?

>> So the son went to the delinquent borrowers with his benevolent offer.
>> And oh the joy of those who accepted.
>
>I know some pretty miserable Christians. 

Why are they miserable?  And how do you know they are miserable?

>Yep - because, in the terms of the analogy, he created them 
>for no other purpose than to borrow it and then accept his forgiveness.
>Yeesh... 

The idea that God created us to sin is not a part of our faith, it must
rather be something that you thought of yourself.  I would be willing
to discuss this further if you would like, Sean.

>> Some, however, after a time, swallowed their pride and came 
>> out and accepted his help.  They received his payment of their debt and
>> looked at themselves honestly, realizing he was right.  What joy was theirs!
>
>Come off it... "What joy was theirs!"  Christians are no happier than 
>anyone else.

There is no way to qualify this comparative statement.  But an individual
can testify of his own joy or lack thereof.  For me, being united to Jesus
my Lord has brought joy unlike I had or have ever known.  In fact, nothing
has come close to comparing.  Am I saying that I never have a lack of joy?
No, I'm not saying that.  But when I do its because I have gotten caught
up in things that steal my devotion to Jesus.  Yet when I am drawn back to
Him by the Holy Spirit, I find comfort, fulfillment, and joy in His presence
and through the Scriptures.  Nothing to compare to it, Sean.

>This is a very interesting analogy, and it comes closer to making sense than
>anything else I have ever seen on this subject. In fact, at first I thought
>it completely clarified the matter. However this analogy breaks down 
>in some important ways. Most critically, our situation as human beings is in
>no way analogous to that of the debtors in your story. A more accurate
>analogy would be...
>
>Analogy
>
>A man was sitting on a park bench one day, enjoying the sunshine and spring
>air. After a while another man came along and sat down next to him. 
>	"Have you paid your debt off?" said the second man.
>	"Eh??" said the first man, "What debt?"

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Sean.  This last statement you've
made is the crux of the struggle between us and not only us but all
believers and nonbelievers: "what debt"?

Trying to understand each others points of view is totally hindered by
that one little phrase.  To the believer, he has admitted his wrongdoing
and tendacy to do wrong.  Whereas a nonbeliever believes he has done no
wrong that is accountable to the Creator.

I remember myself as a nonchristian, walking along on campus and having
another guy come up to me and start talking with me.  He seemed like a
nice enough guy to me until he started talking about Jesus dying for my
sins.  And he asked me if I died that night would I go to heaven.

Now the idea of Jesus himself, didn't bother me too much, but by saying
that he died for my sins enfuriated me.  I was not able to just laugh it
off but felt compelled to defend myself and procure my innocence.  I insured
him that I was a good person and had not committed any major crimes.
I wanted to tell him to get lost but he was polite.  For a few days, this
incident stayed in the forefront of my thoughts invoking feelings of anger
and bitterness toward this guy and Christians in general.  I rehearsed in
my mind time and time again, what I would say to humiliate any Christian
who came up to me, putting them in their place.

Yet at the same time I was perplexed by my seemingly overreacting response.
Why did it matter?  Why couldn't I just brush it off as I would an 
encyclopedia salesman?  I couldn't!  

And yet, when I really thought about it, I was not being very honest with
the guy.  I had done plenty of things that I was ashamed of (ya know, the
ole skeletons in the closet).  And I had told him that I had not committed
any crimes.  Yet not too long earlier, I had let a friend of mine talk me
into stealing something.  I was not innocent but I didn't want anyone to
know about it.  I lied!  Imagine that.

What would happen if somehow all things we have done or thought were exposed
to the world on big screen TV, yes even those skeletons.  It's a pretty
scary thought.  Well that's what the Bible claims will happen some day.
Our Creator will bring to light our life and even the secret intents of
our heart.  But let me sympathize because I too have missed the mark.
But now imagine someone else taking the shame instead of us.  That's what
Jesus Christ did on the cross.  Confess them to God in Jesus name and 
those shameful scenes are edited right out of the film!

>	"So all you have to do to get forgiven of your debt is agree
>to accept that forgiveness," explained the second man amiably. 
>	"Ok - if I've got a debt, than I hereby accept forgiveness. How's
>that?"
>	The second man sighed. "No, no, that's not good enough...you have to
>PROVE you accept it by praying to `Son of Big Boss' every day. You have to
>come to our meeting hall and join our organization, or a similar one, devoted
>to the worship of Son of Big Boss."

Let me assure you, Sean, it is sufficient.  The Bible says "by one sacrifice
he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (Heb 10:14).  
Forgiveness is found once and for all through that one sacrifice.

The rest of what you describe is also good.  It doesn't have anything to
do with forgiveness of sin, however.  Rather it is a result of a changed
desire to be with the One who gave His life for you and to live for Him.
Let me tell you that religion was the last thing I wanted.  But after I
found Jesus, or rather He found me, my greatest goal and drive was to bring
glory to Him and live for Him.

>	"You mean, some dead guy pushed a debt on me that I never wanted,
>forgave me for it, and now demands that I worship him to thank him for that
>forgiveness??" said the first man incredulously. 

No, He took our place for the shameful things that we have done, bearing
our shame.  He took away the debt that we pushed out of our mind.  And
He rose from the dead in the same flesh that He was crucified.  And He
is alive today as many have and do testify.

>Don't be silly, comrade. I confess my sins. I know I sin like the dickens,
>and I'm not happy about it, and I'm doing my best to fix it. However, your
>doctrine states that I must have a deep conviction of the truth of 
>Jesus' resurrection, and that I must go out and evangelize for it, and 
>that I must go hang out with other people who have this conviction, and
>that I must not do X, Y, Z  rules.  You're being misleading when you
>say that all we have to do is accept the forgiveness. 

No, confessing your sins and believing what Jesus did for you by dying 
for your sins is sufficient to be forgiven.  Don't worry about all the
other stuff, Jesus will give you the desire to do the things he has called
you to.  He will guide you and lead you and share with you His power,
His resurrection life.  Let Him be Lord and the One who gives you His
strength to fulfill your individual calling and purpose in this life.

>No atheist hates God. Because we don't even think he's real. 

It is good to hear that.  If the God of the Bible were real, would you
love Him?

>Sean Hartigan
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca

God bless you and keep you,
-- 
John Emery		"You say we've risen to a new age of light.
emery@tc.fluke.COM       You're telling me what used to be wrong
			 is now right."
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