HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (The Mad Scot)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 05:41:07 GMT

Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes (concerning crowns):

>
> How about people like me? Before hitting the Current Middle Ages I was an
> Irish monk, and I know more about medieval Christianity than most knights
> know about which end of the stick to hold. The summit of my ambition, "in
> persona", is not King, but Pope/Patriarch (Archbishop would do...). My
> "natural career path" BY DELIBERATE DESIGN DOESN'T EVEN EXIST in the SCA,
> despite the fact that the Church had orders of magnitude more impact on
> the Middle Ages than "chivalry" ever dreamed of. Shall we complain about
> "lack of authenticity and consistency"? Then I'll go first.
>
> Metaphorically speaking, don't be so quick to gripe about not getting to
> ride the fancy horse unless you've given some thought to those of us who
> don't even get shoes.
>
>    Tadhg, Obelisk
>
>
> * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

Hear Hear!  As a period Celtic Christian descended from clergy, I
agree.  How about a "career path" that us non-fighters can aspire too?
I, for one, would just love to follow in the path of my ancestors and
become archbishop for the dioscese of the Outlands!

Or, Vicar General of the Scottish Inquisition :)

(Ahh, I can see it now, Lord Torcailmada...:)

Torcail



-- 
===============================================================================
Tony Perreault, High Tech Babysitter & Nanny      tperreau@banshee.vla.nrao.edu
Array Operations, Very Large Array	          All opinions expressed are my
Socorro, NM				            own and not those of NRAO
From: sinister@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 28 Dec 92 14:48:27 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


	I am wondering... does anyone have a "Period Calendar", as
it were, covering the popular Holidays/Observances/NoteableTime
Bits of Period?  I keep seeing posts ended with things like
"Written the 3rd Day before Michealmas";  it would be interesting
to have a list for things like dating scrolls and missives.


		In Faith and Service,
				Cosmano

_______________________________________________________________
  Cosmano Piero Michelotto da Roma  |    Michel Vaillancourt
    Canton of Seashire              |     Halifax
     Barony of Ruantallan           |    Nova Scotia
      East Kingdom                  |    Canada!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|  Disclaimer:  None Required... U of Dalhousie doesn't think |
|           I can do that much damage, even un-supervised...  |
|                                     --'Sinister             |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:55:14 GMT

It has never been clear to me, even after fighting in more than one Midrealm
Crown Tournament, whether its invitational nature is intended to 1.
keep complete x-heads out from under crowns; 2. make for a more competitive
tournament; or 3. make sure that all competitors share a certain
throne-worthiness.

In my experience it does none of the above.

To those who have said that Crown Tournaments are the apogee of the tournament,
I can only say that you must have been very fortunate in your choice
of crown tournaments to fight in.  In my experience, crown tournament
bouts are characterised by appalling conservatism (occasionally
bordering on cowardice), rhino-hiding even from people of normally
good standards, arrogant marshalling, and lack of the jolly good
fellowship that makes fighting fun.

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: What harm from a Bad Monarch?
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 05:16:19 GMT

In article <1hvu5hINNpbf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>Several people have mentioned that the don't see that a "Bad Monarch(tm)"
>could do much damage to their kingdom in the few months that they are on
>the thrones.

I said that.

>Whilst I hope it never happens, there is actually a
>significant amount of damage that such a person(s) could do.
>
>Consider:  How much of your kingdoms regalia is turned over to the
>keeping of the new monarchs at their coronation?  Is it inventoried
>then?  Is it inventoried when they step down?  How much are your
>kingdom's crowns, swords of state, thrones, etc. worth (and how quickly
>could they be replaced)?  (Historical note: One of the "incidents" of
>the reign of Michael of Boarshaven involved the temporary
>"disappearance" and damaging of the Midrealm crowns.)

So you need a safeguard against larceny.  Most places use "police" for
this purpose.  What current clever system filtres out larcenous people?

>Consider:  Despite a requirement to consult with the members of the
>peerage orders, there is no requirement to follow their
>reccommendations.  A set of "Bad Monarchs(tm)" could give knighthoods,
>Laurels, and Pelicans to dozens of their friends, all quite legally,
>causing major problems for the kingdom for years to come.

Major problems?  Like poverty, pestilence, hunger, disease?  Goodness me,
some undeserving people get awards.  What current clever system
filtres out people who give lots of awards to their buddies?

>Consider:  The Crowns are, technically, official representative of the
>Society.  Considering the already shakey reputation that the SCA has in
>certain areas of the US, and by certain types of people (some of whom
>have large amounts of local influence), it wouldn't take much for one of
>the more neaderthal types lucky enough to have won the Crown (or a real
>airhead, either gender, to be Consort) to spout off some truly
>outrageous half-truth (or outright falsehoods) to the local media (or
>worse, to some one from a news service) to cause some major public
>relations nightmares for the SCA, Inc. and a lot of its local groups for
>years.  (Witness the continuing problem with one or two cases of
>suicides erroneously linked to the SCA.)

As opposed to now, when SCA monarchs are all wise, clever and _never_
"neanderthal" or "airhead" types, because of ... some clever system
which filtres out all those who might shoot off their mouths to the Press?

>"Bad Monarchs(tm)" CAN do major damage, if they want to.  Thankfully,
>such cases have been extremely rare.

So a "bad monarch" could steal stuff, could give awards to people who
were relatively unmeritorious, and might make the SCA look still
goofier in public? How could a kingdom ever survive things like that?!

Whoa!  Nusbacher is getting snarky.  He must have spent the day
sucking up to half-colonels.  Perhaps he ought to suck down a bit o'
Baileys and go to sleep.

Aryk
From: thor@lcc.edu (Thor Rydd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: East Lansing,Mi area SCA groups - Any contacts??
Date: 1 Jan 93 03:49:19 GMT
Reply-To: thor@lcc.edu
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: indian.cps.msu.edu
Originator: aiello@indian.cps.msu.edu

Looking for someone(s) in the East Lansing, Michigan area
that can give me info about local SCA events.

Thor Rydd
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Re-joining the SCA as a Bandit
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 17:57:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.225245.3949@epas.toronto.edu>, nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec21.211633.13471@nas.nasa.gov> cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano) writes:
|> 
|> >As I have often been told, it's not where you live but who you play
|> >with. In the Mists it easy to live in one barony or province and
|> >play with another.
|> 
|> ...
|> 
|> >So pick a group that you wish to be associated with,
|> >and go to the events you want to go to. Most baronial events in
|> >our area are well intended by members of other groups.
|> 
|> Goddamn Westies.  Just get on the BART and boot over to the next group.
|> 
|> Sure.
|> 

I don't think BART goes to Lochac :)

|> Euriol, there's a lotta wheat between baronies in Calontir.
|> 
|> \8-)
|> 
|> Aryk

Euriol
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Subject: Re:Fighting in crown: a thought
Originator: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au
Reply-To: colin@ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Organization: IPS Radio and Space Services.  Sydney, Australia.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:20:10 GMT

>>nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>>>Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
>>>royalty to non-fighting couples?

>>Why not? There are many people who would make great monarchs but 
>>either don't fight or are not good fighters. Being able to pound
>>people harder than anyone else does not guarantee any other skills.

>What skills?

>It's not like the king is going to do any damage if he's an idiot,
>even in kingdoms where they let the king do anything he wants.  And
>there is no method of choosing a king that will guarantee you skills,
>not even if you tell the applicants to send a resume, and give a civil
>service exam.

It is quite possible for SCA royalty to make stupid decisions, which
remain uncorrected due to the inherant conservatism of the society.
Allowing non fighters to become royalty won't stop dumb decisions,
but should allow better informed decisions in non fighting areas.
The majority of monarchs would still be fighters, with the occasional
non fighting couple adding a bit of variety. I think fighting for
a couple would be extremely chivalric and a nice change from 
Thung Superjock fighting for his current girlfriend Flossy.

Juan

"Anyone who beats me two out of three times deserves to be a knight"
- A lochac knight
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 2 Jan 93 20:02:28 GMT
   .edu><1992Dec31.192102.24652@pbhya.PacBell.COM><1992Dec31.231346.5042@zia.ao
 c.nrao.edu> <BRANDON.93Jan2141942@gauss.math.brown.edu>

Quoth Simon Santiago de Cordoba:

>                  A sundial measures where the sun is in it's path across
> the sky, without regard to how long that path actually takes.  When the sun
> is highest (local noon) the shadow of the gnomon will *always* be at the
> middle marking (or disappear entirely).  When the sun is on the horizon
> (sunup or sundown) the shadow will always be in the same place, which will
> depend on the latitude (I think), but not the time of year.

Is that really true?  My practical astronomy is probably even rustier than 
yours is, but that doesn't fit with my intuition about how the solar system
is set up.  The earth rotates around its axis, and there's this plane
perpendicular to this axis, which contains the equator, and which always
stays parallel, regardless of time-of-year.  At the equinoxes, the
sun lies in this plane; in summer it's on "your" side of the plane
(north of it for summer in this hemisphere), in winter it's on the other 
side.  In which case, at the equinox, the sun rises "due east" (since due
east is always in that plane), but the time of year most certainly does
change that!

I *think* it's true that the shadow of the tip of the gnomon, at sunrise,
will fall in a straight line throughout the year, as will its shadow at
any other constant fraction of the time between sunrise and sunset, and
those straight lines are what I thought the lines on your average sundial
were.

OK, now it's someone else's turn to shot down my geometric intuition...

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
  kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Heraldic references...
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 14:52:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Dec21.191513.6574@sierra.com> paul@sierra.com (Paul Stratton) writes:
>In article <james.724378993@wrs.com> james@wrs.com writes:
>>parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>>
>>>I realise you mean well, but interlibrary loan, or even libraries
>>>for that matter, are quite useless to the vast majority of
>>>people.
>>>Papworth, for example, is not in the collection (to my knowledge,
>>>and I looked about for it once) of any public library in Alberta.
>>
>>So?  Get it from a library outside of Alberta.  It's been a few years since
>
>Did you check the University?  By the way the Avacal Principality Herald
>(Alberta) who just happens to live in Calgary, has a Papworth in her
>posession (Reanna of Wheatenfield).  And guess why she has has that book?
>Right, to help submitters!  Reanna would be happy to conult with people
>on their devices using such research items as Papworth and the Society
>Armorial and Ordinary.  If you don't ask us (THE heralds) we can't help
>you.
>
>Drogo the Forgetful,
>Black Lion

I know she has one...She spent 5hrs at ny house helping me (well,
okay, I really should say "doing most of the work") with conflict
checking.

But long before I even knew Rheanna existed, I tried for
Papworth, and couldn't get it...I brought it up mostly to
illustrate a point, but this seemed to bog down, and now
I can't even remember what it was.

On a related note, I have begun outlining my letter to
Laurel, BoD, Ombudsman. Among other things I plan to suggest:

     That our standards for conflict are far too high

     That we protect as "armoury" too many things (obscure 
             military badges for small units, for example)

     That we do not practice "good medieval heraldry", because
             our rule soften do not permit perfectly acceptable
             heraldic practices

     That consideration should be given to dissolving the office
              of Laurel, and that device should be protected only
              on a kingdom level basis.

     That it should be written into corora that No person may
              be restricted from any SCA activity because
              they lack registered arms.

I would appreciate any mail that gentles would care to send me
on these topics...I will be away until Jan 2 or so, but will read
it and it will likely infuence my research.

Also anyone with ISBN etc for books on period herladry practices
is invited to send them to me...It would be greatly appreciated.

Had a breif talk  with A herald I respect a great deal last
night, and found that she agreed with many of the points which
have been raised here in support of serious overhaul of our
heraldic system...

Carolus Malvoix
Windmills executed. Have sword, will travel.
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 3 Jan 93 04:38:18 GMT
Reply-To: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
NNTP-Posting-Host: msupa.pa.msu.edu

In article <726022829.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>, Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org
(Tim) writes:
>    Jeremy de Merstone wrote:
>
> P> While it may be true that efforts towards a *systematic* Latin blazoning
> P> system date from the 1600s,  it is demonstrably true that Latin blazoning
> P> was used in period.  The Matthew Paris rolls [c. 1260] have the arms
> P> described primarily in Latin, as do many other heraldic documents of
> P> Tadhg's "core period" in England and elsewhere (even in areas such as the
> P> Holy Roman Empire which were outside of "Western Culture" by Tadhg's
> P> definition).  So this argument will not fly.
>
> Excuse me ... what "Tadhg's definition of Western Culture" are you (and
> others, apparently) referring to here? I am not aware of defining "Western
> Culture" at any time. I have specified the area from which I would prefer
> to see us take our armorial style, and I am of opinion that that certainly
> represents the CORE of the "Western Culture" that the SCA exists to
> emulate, but at no time have I claimed that that area represents the
> *whole* of "Western Culture".
>
> I'm more or less inured to catching flak for opinions that I *do* hold,
> but I categorically refuse to be shot at for opinions that I *don't *
> hold.

I refer to the following, excerpted from a response he made to a posting by
Arval in this very thread (header included so people can look up the rest of
the article in question at their leisure):

> From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
> Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
> Message-ID: <725737046.F00002@ocitor.fidonet>
> Date: 30 Dec 92 02:49:15 GMT
> Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
>
>     I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part of the
>     western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I suggest that a
>     substantial case could be made. This means Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy,
>     and I even look askance at most of Germany....

I suppose that saying "A includes B" does not necessarily imply that
"A does not include C", but the comment about Germany didn't sound like a
"A DOES include C" to me (where A=="western culture" and C=="Germany", in
this case).  Other readers can make their own decisions about whether my
apparent misinterpretation was justified, just as they can make their own
decisions as to whether Tadhg's definition is reasonable.  But I *do*
contend that "I define..." represents a "definition".

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins@msupa.pa.msu.edu
 North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins@msupa (Bitnet)
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rattan Swords - why we tape them
Date: 28 Dec 92 19:57:52
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: graham@Civil.Concordia.CA's message of 27 Dec 92 05:15:32 GMT

graham@Civil.Concordia.CA (Graham to my friends) writes:

 Summary: Tape is a safety measure
] Keywords: rattan
]
] I just read a couple articles about rattan swords and the making,
] shrink-wrapping and otherwise altering thereof.
]
] I don't think shrink-wrapping them is a good idea if the potential exists
] for the wrapping to become a missile, notwithstanding the fact that it
] doubles their lifespan.  Most people get two swords out of a stave and the
] stave costs $20.00.  if they use up a sword every 2 months (about my speed)
] then their swords cost $5.00 a month, no?  Is this worth running the
] risk of hurting someone when the shrink wrapping flies off? Or can people be
] hurt by a sword that has become a broom within the shrink wrapping?

It's not that the shrink-wrap flies off. The problem is that the shrink-wrap
is stiff enough to mask the fact that the rattan has been demolished. Then
the shrink-wrap fails, catastrophically as is often the case with plastics,
and the tip of the sword, rattan and all, becomes a missile.

] As for the tape, I was informed that the tape was to prevent *splinters* of
] rattan from flying into the eyes of said opponents and thus creating
] discomfort.

That's what I'm told too. Retaping swords ocasionally is a must.

] The only thing that the Marshal's Handbook says about swords is that they
] can be taped (pg.32 Weapons:2:a) and they cannot be treated so as to reduce
] their flexibility (pg.33.Weapons:2:b). 

] I personally think that if something doubles the life of a sword it is a
] VERY GOOD THING.  I would like to know more about the shrink-wrapping thing
] because if it can be made legal I'll get in touch with Master Bjorn Karlsson
] (earl marshal of the East) and see about it getting passed by the
] Marshallate so everybody benefits.  But if it doesn't work or is dangerous 
] he (and we) should know about it.

What I was told to do to lengthen the life of my sword was to take 
either leather or nylon web, about the weight one finds in the
"girths" (aka cincjes or latigos) used on Western saddles, and tape
it to the oft-used "edges" of the sword. This seems to work well:
I have one leather-edged and one web-edged sword that hare holding
up okay. It makes the sword a little heavier ( good and bad : slower
but with more impact ) but much more durable.

It's so nice to have Peers around to ask questions of. Sigh.


--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: 4 On Fealty
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 17:24:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Ioseph, your article on fealty was interesting.  There is much that we
could argue about for hours, but there are two points I'd like to comment
on directly:

>                            The Crown-------The Crown Prince/ess
>                           /    |   \
>  The Coronet of Principality A |  The Coronet of Principality B
>      |       |        |        |         |       |            |
>      |       |        |      Peers       |       |            |
>      |       |        |                  |       |            |
> Baron/ess C  |      Baron/ess D    Baron/ess E   |        Baron/ess F
>      |       |           |             |         |            |
> Barony C     |      Barony D        Barony E     |         Barony F
>          |---|     /       \                     |---|         
>          |     Canton G  Canton H                    |         
>       Shire I                                   College J

I have two major arguments with this diagram.  First, it implies that all
fealty in the SCA is a function of official office and rank.  That is
untrue.  I can swear fealty to or take fealty from anyone I wish,
regardless of my rank or that of the other party.  A peer, for example, can
swear fealty to anyone he chooses.  I will grant your point that the
acceptance of a peerage carries an inherent promise of service and that
this can be interpretted as a form of fealty, but the peer can freely do
homage to any overlord he chooses.  (Indeed, since "fealty" is not defined,
it is not clear that even a knight is required to do homage to the Crown.)
In short, it is not true that everyone in the SCA is necessary in fealty to
a landed noble, and it is certainly not true that everyone is in fealty to
the Crown.  A great deal of the meaningful fealty in the SCA has nothing
whatsoever to do with the official hierarchy.

Second, your chart implies that fealty is transitive; you made this point
explicit later:

> In practice, a person in liege-fealty to a Peer who is in liege-fealty to
> the Crown should be considered "in fealty" to the Crown...

That is not how fealty works where I come from, and it is not a correct
characterization of medieval fealty.  The vassal of my vassal is not my
vassal.  The Crown has no authority over my vassal by virtue of my
vassal's oath to me, though it may have authority by virtue of law or other
agreements my vassal has made.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet