From: hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu)
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon Discount Supermachine  Re: Sydnes is gone?!!
Organization: SAR Systems Development & Processing, JPL
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:53:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.130413.22248@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.002305.21842@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>>skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>: With the goofy 1040ST case you'd need a Bodega-Bay like contraption for
>>: that backplane.
>>
>>IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN??????  OHMYGOD.  I owned one of
>>those little buggers, thought it was the UGLIEST thing to ever grace
>>(or grease) my desk.
>
>Yep, and the joystick ports are still on the bottom of the thing.  I think
>that they are going to be the same dark gray as the ST Book and the old
>STacy.  Maybe they'll use stealth paint so no one will notice them and
>start laughing.  :-)
>
Stealth paint, that's got a nice ring to it.  }-)  The Falcon case is black,
last I saw. Funny how folks arrive at the same ideas like that... (Anyone
remember Bell & Howell Apple ][ clones?)

>>: The old voice chip appears to be in there also.
>>
>>Not much of a cost reduction, they're throwing everything from three
>>computer systems into it...  I guess that's one way to maintain
>>compatibility. 
>
>Almost as if they are layering the hardware to make up for their mistakes
>like they are for the software.  :-)

None of this multilayered vector stealing crap any more. That was one of the
first things changed for the better in MiNT. There's a real live jump table
for replacing individual functions, instead of the godawful trap-handler
juggling that TOS forced ya into.
>
>>: I don't think that the NeXT allows more than one app to use the DSP at
>>: the same time either.  Of course, the Amiga is also guilty in this case.
>>: Try running MED and another module player and see what happens.
>>
>>Those hack the hardware, specifically against OS rules.  If they were
>>to "obtain" those, like my Mod player does, you'd see there's no
>>problems.
>
>I didn't mean to imply that they crashed the machine or anything like that,
>but only 4 voices are allowed at one time.  I don't know how easy or how
>hard it would be, but a system that allowed an infinite number of programs
>to access the sound would be nice.  I realize that there would be some
>limitations, but a hardware or software "mixer" could allow several apps
>to output sound without having to wait for free channels.
>
>>I'm not sure how the NeXT does it:  Does it require that you "obtain"
>>the dsp before use?
>
>I'm not really certain.  I almost bought one and spent several hours at
>the Stanford bookstore and computer center playing with them and recall
>seeing requesters indicating that the DSP was busy, so I'd guess that
>it does.

In the OS releases up to 1.0, there were no interlocks in the OS. I haven't
played with the 2.0 or newer stuff, but I recall running their mandelbrot
demo and some music programs at the same time. It was pretty spectacular.
Likewise with trying to run two different music players, or playing music
and getting a printer alert. But with such a glaring problem, I'd expect that
it's done better in the current OS.
>
>>: Ah, but the Falcon has MultiTOS!  As Jeff Young and others have told
>>: us over and over again, MultiTOS and the Falcon will rule the world!
>>: Surely a world leader can multitask a DSP!
>>
>>Yeah, sure.  :)  Unless they developed an operating system to work
>>within that itty-bitty amount of memory they're giving that DSP, I
>>doubt it.
>
>As they can't seem to develop an OS to work in the memory given to the
>CPU, I don't think they'd have much luck developing one for the DSP.  :-)

Well, thankfully, MultiTOS is based on MiNT, which was written by a guy
outside of Atari who actually knows what he's doing...
>
>>: Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS.  Hacks layered upon a stupid
>>: program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
>>: the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.

Or the suckers who own DOS machines...
>>
>>Unless they rewrote, which I hope they did.  If it is truly all
>>"hacked on top, layer after layer", I'll be rather disappointed.
>>Moreso than I already am.

The goal of the MiNT project has always been to be a complete replacement
for TOS. I'd say it's been pretty largely successful, even though current
releases still rely on TOS in some areas.
>
>My roommate worked on a few utilities for MiNT and knows something about
>it.  He is not planning to buy a Falcon depsite the hype although he has
>been a die-hard ST fan for several years now.  What does that tell you?

Not very much. I'd really like to get something similar to the Falcon, but
I'd prefer to wait for one in an expandable case...

>>: Hey, if they threw out SCSI, kept IDE, added an expansion bus, put the
>>: CPU on a card, and put the whole thing into a baby-AT style case they'd
>>: have an A3400 look-alike.  :-)
>>
>>Boo.  :)  Actually, that would look pretty damned ugly.  ;)
>
>Maybe.  As nice as the A3000's case is, it really is a pain in the butt
>to upgrade the thing.

I would throw out the IDE and keep the SCSI, much more useful overall.
Heck, they should have thrown out the floppy controller too; just go
for a SCSI floptical for floppy compatibility.

>>: If you want to learn UNIX, get a Sun-3 for ~$1000.  You get real machine
>>: from a real company with a real keyboard and a real OS.  
>>
>>A real buggy OS, that is.  ;)
>
>But think of all the great practice you'll get while re-writing all of
>the buggy code.  :-)

I wouldn't mind getting hold of a Sun 3-80, but they're not exactly cheap,
nor too terribly impressive as far as audio or video.
>
>A co-worker and fellow Amiga owner was telling me yesterday how he hopes
>that Atari really gets on the ball and the Falcon takes off.  I asked him
>what he was smoking and he replied that it seems that the only thing that
>can spur C= to release new Amigas is the release of new Ataris.  While
>this may not be true, it certainly seems like it when one considers the
>release dates of the repsective machines.  I just wish that C= would set
>their sights on Apple and the clones instead of something like Atari.

Mebbe it's a self-confidence thing, the Commodore execs "know" they can
lick Atari, but don't really feel up to tackling Apple head-on? Silly
sounding notion, but ya never know...
>
>>: BTW, if I sound harsh on the ST, Falcon, etc. good!  As long as bozos keep
>>: ranting about the Falcon I'll continue to flame them.  It amazes me that
>>: any Amiga owners would consider a machine from a company with a record that
>>: makes Commodore look great.
>>
>>I'm not considering it.  I haven't been.  I was thinking that maybe
>>Atari would be changing.  That maybe this would be the computer system
>>that changes Atari's reputation.  Unfortunately, I seem to have been
>>wrong.
>
Ok, taking the "realistic" viewpoint - how can you expect a particular
computer system to be the key? When the ST was introduced in '85 it was
leaps and bounds ahead of the Mac, as a hardware system. Higher screen
rez, sharper video (higher refresh rate), DMA, more peripheral ports,
expandable to up to 4M of RAM compared to the wimpy 128K Mac, etc. etc.
It was at least 3 years before Apple had anything comparable, hardware-wise.
The low-end machines still don't have DMA, etc... Despite the whiz-bang
cool stuff in the ST, the machine has languished. Atari's problem isn't
with designing cool hardware, it's all in the follow-thru. Or lack thereof.
As if they expect to be able to say "here's this obviously superior piece
of hardware, everyone in the world will recognize its obvious superiority
and buy it solely on that consideration." (Of course, if they *had* been
right, they would still have lost when the Amiga came out shortly thereafter.
Isn't life interesting. Really makes ya wonder what the marketing guys on
top are thinking about...)

[It suddenly occurred to me that, hey, maybe they really *were* so deluded
into thinking that their stuff was so revolutionary that it would just
sweep up the developers and consumers alike. Frightening... Especially
since this new system is also being touted as a revolutionary new personal
multi-media machine...]

I'm certainly looking for a change for the better, but this simple
Falcon announcement doesn't imply that *anything* has changed yet. They
could very well just say "here it is" and walk away again, like they did
before. I recall all the rumors of all the software developers that were
drooling after the original ST, and here again we're being told about all
the new developers signing up to write for this Falcon. I think the
developer support has certainly been better in the past couple years than
it was before, just hope they keep it up and don't do anything silly to
alienate this new crop. (I myself let my developer status expire a year
or so ago, but that wasn't 'cause of them really, just that I needed to
refocus...)
-- 
  -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
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 ::To the owner of the blue Mazda, license 742-XLT, your headlights are on...::
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