From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: CUB Scout Camping
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:11:32 GMT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

johnm@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.s.maddaus) writes:
 
> I'm sorry Mike Walton, but on several points I must disagree.  I am a
> volunteer.  I am involved because I believe in the fundamental values
> which scouting promotes.  I want my children and as many others as
> are so inclined to be offered the chance to experience life within the
> context of the fundamental values we support as leaders: Family, God and 
> Country.  But, I also want to spend as much time with my children as possible
> doing outdoor activities that unfortunately my father an I never did at all.
> I recognize the role of our Council and District Executive.  We and our DE 
> know the rules.  We practice two deep leadership faithfully.  We participate 
> in SME, Popcorn sales, Scouting for Food, etc. willingly.  

Good morning, John. Your letter sounds like it comes from a really
dedicated volunteer, and I am sorry if my posting offended you or
others that are trying to do their best with their Scouts and
families. 

Like you, I too am a volunteer and the father of three pre-Cubbing
youth (one, will never become a Cub Scout because she's a girl). I too
take my children with me, separately (for I have learned that I only
have two eyes and concentrating one on my child and one on the
activity leaves me with nothing to watch the others with. So we
alternate. It is my oldest son's turn to go to the Jamboree with me
this summer and my girl will go with me to the Spring Camporee here.
The youngest will go to the Scout Show).  

However, although I believe that family is important, I also stand by
the BSA's policy on Cub Scout camping. If all Cub Scouting families
were like ours, I would say "let's go camping!". 

But most Cub Scout families are not like ours. They find it difficult
to sign off the completed requirements in the books. They don't have
the time (or don't make the time) to do some of the "family" projects
that it calls for in the book. (As a former Den Leader, Den Leader
Coach and WEBELOS Den Leader, I was many times placed in the role of
"surrogate father" and my family was "surrogate family" for many boys
whose families won't even play a game of Sorry (tm) together. This was
one element that raised my own family's tensions and eventually led to
the divorce of my former spouce and myself ("Why is that that every
time some little snot-nosed kid come by, we have to stop and do
Scouting stuff...and *you* encouraged it").  )

Most Cub Scouting families come to the monthly Pack meetings only to
see their child get an award, and not as the monthly family
get-together it is designed around.  Most Cub Scouting families don't
even understand that Cub Scouting is family-oriented, dropping off
their sons at someone else's and sometimes not picking them up until
several hours after the meeting was over. 

For those reasons and the others that I described earlier, I don't
feel that the BSA should be allowing Cubs to do overnight camping
under the Pack flag.  
 
> Our Webelos attend Fall and Spring Camporees with our Webelos leaders and
> assistants.  Our council offers resident camp (4 nights, 5 days) for Cubs 
> (including recently graduated Tigers) each summer, and yes we put two
> seven year olds in a tent together for four nights.  By the way, we have had
> nearly 100% turnout with new "Wolves" nearly every year.  Last summer, we sent 
> 35 boys and 11 adults to summer camp.  This is outdoor camping - everyone sleeps
> in tents.  The boys that go one year, go back every year they remain in cub
> scouting.  In addition, we have a minimum of 2 overnight events each year for 
> the entire Pack.  We organize our events as family (one boy, one parent) events.
> We sleep indoors and outdoors and include our Tigers through Webelos. Thankfully
> overnights are becoming a big business with museums and military installations 
> in New England.  It is precisely the outdoor/overnight experiences that are 
> paramount to the boys.  They are the ONLY three things I remember from my Cub 
> days in the 50's.  I didn't want to do crafts at my den leaders house -  I 
> wanted to do things outdoors.  That is exactly why I lost interest and dropped 
> out.


This was your Council's decision to do the Cub Camp program, and many
other local Councils will be "jumping on the bandwagon" as their camps
are being tagged for elimination. But I still assert that this will
only make the Scouting camping experience (and particularily summer
camp) even rougher for the Scouts. 

Where do they go to Summer camp?? Probably the same place where they
had Cub Camp at. I agree with many that familiar surroundings make for
better organization, but by the time that he becomes a Scout, he may
have spent four summers at the Council's camp. 

Then you say "We would like to have everyone to attend summer camp"
and the kid looks at you and says "Aw man, We've been there. Can't we
do something else this summer?? (describtion follows of terrible
places to camp, the food, the waterfront, etc. etc.)"

I am all for family camping, either as a Council program (to get
maximum usage from the camping facility and to raise monies for the
camping operation [can't tell I've been a paraprofessional before, can
you??] ), but I am still opposed to the BSA taking on Dens and Packs
on overnight events.
 
> We make two simple assumptions.  First, our boys will only stay in scouting
> if they remain interested in the program.  Second, our boys will only stay
> in scouting if the parents remain interested in the program, the latter being
> especially true at the cub level.  To that extent, our Pack emphasizes FAMILY 
> events, the most important of which are the overnight outings.  We stress 
> one-on-one, but we don't mandate it.  Should we not allow a boy to go because
> his single mother has to care for her other children?  A one night sleepover 
> on the Battleship Massachusetts increased our pack size by 30%.  Those boys 
> are still involved and the parents loved it.  We sent 95 boys and parents last 
> year and a number of boys and parents asked to go back this year.  It 
> accomplished exactly what we wanted it to do - get parents and boys more
> involved with Pack functions.  I have noticed a direct relationship between
> attendance at "normal" Pack functions and the quality of the overnight
> programs.  A successful overnight can set the tone for the entire year.
> 
> Council has always supported us.  We have never had a tour permit denied.
> Our roundtables openly discuss overnight possibilities for packs.  Insurance
> has always covered any injuries.  It is a part of scouting life in our region.
> The largest packs in our council are those that provide overnight experiences.
> If we didn't do it, the boys would leave the program and still go camping
> with their parents (or spend more time in outdoor sports) and unfortunately 
> miss out on the programs such as Battleship Mass which are tailored specifically
> for Scouts and not available to the general public.  I talked to a friend in
> Monmouth County, N.J. and they do the same things.  I find it difficult to
> understand the discrepancy between Council interpretations of the BSA rules.
> Further, if BSA is so blind to understand that boys want to be outdoors (even
> at early ages) and that in general the Girl Scout program (including Brownies)
> has better equipped camping facilities and places a greater emphasis on outdoor
> activities, then they need to go back to school.  Even the middle school in
> our town requires all students to spend a weekend camping with minimal super-
> vision.  Do you want to know who the natural leaders are?  AND we are beginning
> to draw the most popular and intelligent kids into scouting, and they are
> staying.  Thank you Daniel Webster Council for being progressive enough to
> recognize reality!

The Daniel Webster Council is indeed progressive on many fronts. 
However, the national policy is there and if they want to interpret
that policy as to mean that overnight camping is allowed as long as
there are assurances that enough adult supervision is there, then whom
am I to disagree with that??   Could it also be that your Council is
classifying those events as "field trips" and not as "camping trips"
also???  I think that is the way that many local Councils have
by-passed the policy. "Field trips" overnight are permitted with local
Council approval (the tour permit is good enough in most cases).

Settummanque!

Mike L. Walton
Greenwood, Kentucky 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting