From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,rec.hunting
Subject: Info on What Shotgun to Buy -- Fairly Long
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:51:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Nov6.085137.12646
Followup-To: rec.guns
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


I asked for advice some time ago and got numerous replies.  Thought I'd  
pass them on, edited to some extent for space.  I left off names because I  
didn't want to breech the privacy of the respondents without their  
permission.  At the end I'll sum up where I am in the purchasing decision  
cycle...

Start --

"As to cost of doubles and over/unders...compared with repeaters, doubles  
and over/unders involve...a higher proportion of machined parts and  
..hand fitting than is true of repeaters.  But it also seems to me that  
an over/under requires as much as a double so why should the double cost  
more for equal quality?

Of course, part of it is that many firms who make over/unders do
not make doubles...  On the other hand, someone recently posted prices
for the Beretta 686/626 family...there was a significant
difference between the 686 (over/under) and the 626 (double) with
the latter much more costly.  The poster's conjecture was that
there is less demand for doubles than for over/unders

Some...periodicals you may want to check out, if you haven't
already are:

Gun Dog, Wing & Shot, and Wildfowl, all published by Stover
Publishing Co.  If I could only subscribe to a single hunting magazine it  
would be Gun Dog.

Gun Dog
P. O. Box 343
Mt. Morris, IL 61054-0343
1-800-435-0715

The Stover Publishing Co., Inc.
P. O. Box 35098
Des Moines, IA 50315
1-800-767-4868

Shooting Sportsman

Game & Gun

I don't have addresses for the latter two...

If you haven't already done so, you may want to get on the mailing
list for  Woodcock Hill Inc., POBox 363, Benton, PA 17814,
717-864-3242 and Bill Hanus Bird Guns (somewhere in southern New
Mexico.)

If I didn't suggest it earlier, you may want to consider a good
used SKB double, if you can find one.

It would be nice to have access to a gun smith who specializes in (or, at  
least, has experience with) good doubles.  Being competent with repeaters  
doesn't necessarily equate to being so with doubles and over/unders.

Incidentally, you will hear people speak of the advantage of the
over/under over the double in having only a "single sighting
plane."  I'm pretty much convinced that that is either in their
heads or that they're shooting their guns too much like rifles.
Some of these same people will also sometimes admit that when they
are shooting really well, they are unaware of the gun...  Clearly, a gun
must fit pretty well for it to be possible to be completely unaware
of it...  My belief is that it is more important that the gun fit well
and that one become comfortable with it than whether the barrels be
stacked vertically or horizontally.  But, then, I've always lusted
for doubles (since the Winchester model 21 sold for on the order of
$300) and so maybe I just don't want to believe that over/unders
are easier to shoot well."

"...Orvis catalog, ...800-635-7635...  When you call be sure to ask for  
their gun consignment sales [list].  Otherwise, they will send
their regular catalog which is mostly oxford shirts and whatnot.

They recently sent me a copy of the consignment guns they had.  ...I do  
remember seeing the Classic Doubles was still available.

Just as an off the wall idea, have you ever considered a black powder  
shotgun?  Cabelas has two side-bys (on 10 and one 12 ga) that look real  
nice, have chrome lined barrels and are steel shot capable.  They even  
come with choke tubes.  At $400 they aren't cheap, but that's still a lot  
less than a good "modern" gun.  I don't know anything about black powder  
shotguns but I imagine a 10 ga would be the better bet for any big birds  
at longer ranges."

"IF YOU WANT A GOOD TRAP GUN WHICH YOU CAN USE FOR THE FIELD ALSO
I WOULD GO WITH A REMINGTON MODEL 3200, COMPETITION TRAP MODEL.
GREAT GUN, SHOOTS WELL AND YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PICK A GOOD ONE UP
FOR BETWEEN $1000.00-$1500.00. THE REAL FANCY STOCKED ONES, HIGH
END RUN IN THE $2000.00-$3000.00 RANGE. I PURCHASED A REAL 
BEAUTIFUL ONE FOR $800.00."

"Alright, another person to try and persuade into buying a side-by...  I
[bought] a Merkel 12ga model 8.  This gun will have dual triggers, a  
straight english stock, extractors rather than ejectors, and
3" chambers.  Other versions of stocks, chambers, triggers, etc are  
available for this model.  The cost of the gun is just under $1k.  If you  
want ejectors rather than extractors add $350.

I am having the forcing cones lengthened to improve patterning and reduce
pressures when shooting steel. Thats probably $30 additional.  But, to  
shoot steel effectively, I want choke tubes installed.  I'm going with the  
best I can find - Briley's @ $340.  That's a lot, but this is a thin  
walled barrel, and so forth so it takes the best to do it right.

There are other guns out there, and if you can stand the looks of the
Berretta's Brunton (sp?) barrel finish, the Model 626 side-by is a great  
gun, but only comes with pistol grip stock and single selective trigger,  
and semi beavertail forarm - all undesirable imo.  The advantages here  
though are chambers to 3.5", choke tubes included, chrome-lined barrels so  
they might be appropriate.  Definielty the best for steel shot durability.  

The Ruger Red Label with the new straight english stock would have been my  
choice in O/U. The Parker-Hales are okay, but I don't think they are as  
nice as the Merkel, and they are no more steel shot reliable - possibly a  
lot less.  American Arms, Armsport, and a few more out there are pretty  
chintzy - especially American Arms (they are spanish made...[though] some  
of the really pricey guns are spanish).  The Spanish Gruppa (sp wrong, but  
close) is really nice but over your price range and probably not steel  
compatible.

Then there is a guy named Bill Hannus that imports beautiful guns custom  
made to his specifications from Spain.  Unfortunately, these are 16 ga and  
smaller.  That won't do for ducks.  

GSI's number is 1-800-821-3021.

I ordered my gun from Franklin's...  They are easily the best gun
shop I've ever been in and they beat any of the prices here [in] Iowa
hands down (the price of a Berreta 626 here is $564 more than through
Franklin's!).  Franklin's phone number is: 706-543-7803.  Ask for Mark  
Franklin.  He isn't the owner, but he seems to have complete control of  
the gun department."

"Last I heard, a company called Classic Doubles Ltd. had the manufacturing  
rights to the [Winchester] 23 and its over/under cousin, the 101, and  
claimed to have improved them.  ...I too would love to have a Hatfield or  
a Parker repro.  I presently have a Parker-Hale low-end Spanish double  
(mfg by Ugartechea) that I paid about $500 for several years ago.  I  
believe that they are significantly more now and probably don't meet your  
criteria especially if  you want something that is compatible with steel
shot.  (Although I wouldn't shoot steel through *any* nice double.)

So, you are probably looking at an over/under and you could do a
lot worse than the standard grade Browning Citori (also made in
Japan).  It isn't as fancy as the high-grade Browings but it is
within your price range--or so I believe.  And it's a good quality
gun that you needn't be ashamed of (except, of course, that the put
the barrels together in the wrong direction. :)

Also look at the Berettas.  I've lost track of price but my
shooting buddy swears by them.  The low-end Berettas are (or were)
called the Onyx line.  The older Beretta doubles may be worth considering
second hand as well.  The doubles were the 626 and the 627 and the
o/u the 686 & 687 with various letter suffixes depending on grade.
I considered a 626 when I was about to get my PH but couldn't find
one with straight-hand stock, splinter forearm, and double
triggers.  If those aren't important to you and you can find one it
may be just the ticket.  Or, of course, the Onyx line."

"In the price range you quote, there are only three guns which can be  
purchased new with the qualities you seek (though they might not  
appreciate, they won't lose much value):  The Browning Citori Trap at  
about $1300 list; the Churchill Trap at about $1000 list; and the SKB 585  
Trap at about $1000 list.  ...I bought a Citori: they're very good,
solid, reliable guns at a very reasonable price (comparatively).  If you  
start talking used guns, you might consider either the old Winchester  
Diamond Grade or Classic Doubles models or the Ithaca (now SKB).  With the  
variety of tasks you have in mind, I would recommend the Browning
GTI Sporting Clays.  This is an excellent gun for hunting, sporting clays,
and skeet and a fine trap gun for someone who isn't into serious  
competition (where you'll want a long, single-barrel model for singles and  
handicap and a relatively long-barrel over-under for doubles -- 34" and  
either 30" or 32" respectively)."

End --

The vast majority of postings recommended the Browning Citori, as did my  
local gun shop.  I ordered the Merkel brochure/list from GSI, and the  
Orvis and Cabellas catalogs.  Only the Merkel materials have arrived --  
both Orvis and Cabellas sent their regular clothing catalogs despite my  
specific request for the gun catalogs.  There are two other shops in the  
area which I intend to check out that may have a better selection and more  
expertise than the local shop, though they did have a rare double set of  
Remington 3200s, consecutively serial numbered in a case, for ~$3870, but  
that's more than I can spend and much more than I need.

Right now, I'd probably buy the Browning Citori Sporting Clays Lightning  
if only it came in a Grade III or VI.  It seems to have all the "must"  
features.  I may wait and save up a little longer for the Browning Citori  
Skeet because it does come in Grade VI with almost all the features of the  
Sporting Clays model [about $500 more than I wanted to pay, originally,  
but... :-)].  Still, I want to hold and swing some of the others before  
settling on one, and look at the Baretta 687EL, the SKB 885, and the  
Merkel 147E [if I can find one]...