HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lbrahm@denver.cba.du.edu (Lans Brahmantyo)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: University of Denver
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 01:09:23 GMT

In article <72148@cup.portal.com> kent_stuart_smith@cup.portal.com writes:
>  I fear that
> NeXT will be be eventually bought by the Japanese.  They may be able to 
> eventually use NS in a successful fight with Microsoft in the future. I also 
> fear that Jobs won't be able to hold out forever- remember, he's lost a lot
>  of his fortune in NeXT, as well as his credibility in the computer world. It
>  took me back to see the cheap prices of NeXT machines offered by Spherical
> (even though they are used).  Watch out for the prices, though when NeXT is a
> wholly owned Japanese company...

--

Hmm, ... I thought Jobs has been the keynote speaker in several important  
computer exhibitions and shows this year! I must say that he is gaining  
credibility with his Object-Oriented stuffs and NeXTSTEP 486. Perhaps, your  
friend's mind was not logical enough for me to understand (or may be because  
he/she uses DOS/Windows ... if so that's nothing new. They are so stuck that  
they cannot see which one is logical, like: copy a:*.* c: instead of drag and  
drop ... or perhaps he/she becomes too smart?)

Well, may be after being fully owned by Japanese, it will sell better like  
Japanese cars and electronics. I don't mind at all! Personally, I would rather  
have a Japanese-owned NeXT than pure American crap like Windows NT. I don't  
care about who makes what or where it is made as long as they are superior  
product, I'll take it. American products lost the battle in cars, electronics,  
and many more to come ... Face it. Most Japanese products are currently just  
superior and I have no complaint or worries even about NeXT's future. It just  
works ... simply and logically!


...................... Brahm ....................................
                        Q. Image & Advertising
			Mama & Leon, Inc.
                        Lans_Brahmantyo@denver.cba.du.edu
                        NeXTmail Preferred
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gaia@wam.umd.edu (L. Anathea Brooks)
Subject: Re: End of the Year (was Re: End of NeXT)
Keywords: friendly sarcasm acknowledged
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:49:19 GMT


One aspect of MS products and Windows 3.x that I'm sure
escapes no-one but hasn't been mentioned this year - (93!):

Windows looks like something to avoid stepping in on the 
sidewalk, on the best of monitors. 

Happy new year.

Brooks
From: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of the Year (was Re: End of NeXT)
Date: 31 Dec 92 19:17:56 GMT
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT

In article <1992Dec31.141936.4222@hot.com> Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com writes:
> In article <1992Dec30.090355.25626@microsoft.com> edwardj@microsoft.com  
> (Edward Jung) writes:

> I've been meaning to ask someone at Microsoft what the
> term "Unrecoverable   Application Error" means.  Is it
> something I need?  I can't seem to find   it on NeXTSTEP. 

Maybe it's when the 3DReality demo blows the window
server away, or when Topdraw/Draw self destructs on some
weird PS code and dies, or when using Icon most of the time,
or when PPP loses the connection and locks up every window
on the machine, or when formatting a floppy on a
multitasking OS turns it into an apparent single process
OS, etc, etc, etc. 

No ;-)

--
Nathan Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu

Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: A rosy forecast for 93
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 04:24:50 GMT

In article <Jan01.223703.26806@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>  
randall@redfish.atmos.colostate.edu (Dave Randall) writes:

> An optimistic forecast for 93

> 1. Faster 040 machines are introduced early in the year.

Where the heck is Motorola with the 40 MHz 68040???

> Prices on slabs are cut.

Six months late, but we'll take it!

> An inexpensive color upgrade for the cube is announced,
> and it becomes clear that the cube has a future.

The economics of creating such a board strongly argue
against such a color offering.  I do think there will
be a 40 MHz 68040 offering, and that may well be the
final cube upgrade.

> ND officially dies, though. 

As long as there are cubes, why not keep a few in stock?

> 2. NeXTSTEP 486 is released almost on time, and is

> 3. A NeXT-Cannon luggable (brief-case sized) machine is

> 4. The NRW turns out to be based on multiple HP PA-RISC

> 5. A port of NeXTSTEP to SPARC is announced, and reaches

> 6. NeXTSTEP 486 achieves sales of 250,000 units in 1993,
> mostly to business and   government.
> 
> 7. NeXT's revenues reach $350 million for 1993. An IPO is
> planned for early 1994. 

If the folks at NeXT really read this group, I'll bet most
of them have tight pants over those last two predictions ;-)

Cheers!

--
Nathan Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu

Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac, Whats the difference?
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 04:28:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.143325.3711@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>
>	Unixware USER + Development :  $500 + $950.  < NeXtStep )$2200
>

How about Unixware server? $2495. That's probably without development tools.
I don't think NS 486's prices are any worse than the competitors'.

>>>
>>>	Believe it when you see it.  NS486, sure--but will NS486 run
>>>	DOS and win apps?  At this point, who knows?
>>>
>>>
>>Yes, NS486 will run DOS and Windows apps. Don't you keep up with the
>>news? Your opinion would be worth so much more if you were at all
>>informed.
>
>
>	Was that necessary?  
>

Yes. Your skepticism goes beyond the bounds of rationality. NeXT
has announced that NS486 will run DOS and Windows apps. How it
will do so is irrelevant to the question of WILL it do so.

>	1.  NeXT hasn't made a commitment.  They say it'll be available.
>	The haven't said what we all suspect--it'll be an additional
>	cost (how many hundred $?) to the already overpriced user package.
>

What's this got to do with WILL it run DOS and Windows apps? So you have
to pay for added functionality. Surprise surprise.

>	2.  The compatibility also hasn't been determined.  It probably
>	wont be as good as OS/2, which most people find "sufficient" or
>	"adequate"
> 

Have you got any evidence to support this, or is this your opinion?
If you've got any factual evidence, we'd love to hear it. Until then, 
it's just your (heavily biased) opinion.

>	Now, if you had given any thought to your post before just
>	blathering the prattle that NeXT has been feeding you, you 
>	might have said something useful.
>>

I'll tend to believe a company that ships a product before I'll listen
to unknown naysayers. I'm glad you can express your opinion, but don't
forget that it's just an opinion. You've provided no evidence to support
your claims (quite the contrary actually) and you have no reputation
as an industry 'guru'. All you've proven is that you're anti-NeXT
and not up-to-date on the NeXT environment.

Terry Wilcox
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Subject: Re: the REAL problem is...
Reply-To: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:47:48 GMT

Chuck Waltrip writes
> But NeXT's only real asset is its (diminishing) head start in 
> the OOP arena.

I agree; I don't believe that significant numbers of people are  
migrating to, have migrated to or are starting with NeXTSTEP.  By  
'significant', I mean that NeXT, Inc.'s profits haven't shown enough  
growth.  I'd say that if the people with money are truly interested in  
OOP, then they'll wait until it's available from Microsoft or Taligent.   
I think it's another case of the masses saying, "What we've been doing  
and what we're doing now is working for us, so why change to something  
else small like NeXTSTEP?"

I think if NeXT realized that developers are not where the money is,  
they'd have a more profitable NeXT hardware investment.

I think that users are the key to the success of the NeXT.  Users tell  
the developers what to make with their tools, and if developers want to  
make money, they fulfill the user's needs to the user's satisfaction.   
If left alone, users don't have the know-how or the will to want to  
make their own word processors, databases, spreadsheets and CAD  
programs.  If they did, the majority of users would be developers as  
well.  Similarly, when left only with other developers, developers tend  
to create more and more tools for development thereby making something  
that looks and feels just like UNIX (the land of no applications and a  
hard-to-use CLI).
-- 
-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
-- NeXTmail welcome
From: drm@esl.com (Don McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of NeXT(It's only the beginning...)
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:27:58 GMT
Reply-To: drm@esl.com

In article <1993Jan02.064531.21619@microsoft.com> edwardj@microsoft.com  
(Edward Jung) writes:
> vhs@rhein-main.de writes:
> >> again, base OS services are not that interesting any more.
> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Then why do you cite nothing but base OS services as positive
> >points for NT?

The problem plaguing the software industry today is getting applications  
written in reasonable time with reasonable use of programmer resources.   
OSs can help that some (protected VM and multitasking, so you don't have  
to reboot every compile-link-run cycle, for example.)  But once you have a  
reasonable OS you can't continue to get order of magnitude increases in  
programmer productivity by getting more technically sophisticated OSs.  To  
do that you need something like appkit and IB.

One of Windows' problems (That edward is probably too diplomatic to point  
out here) is that it doesn't have a reasonable OS yet.  NT looks like it  
provides that.  Once NT is in place they can use that as a base to build  
the really interesting stuff, their appkit equivalent.  Well, interesting  
to us anyway, since we've had a reasonable OS for a while and take the OS  
portion for granted.  But you aren't going to write a GUI application 10X  
faster because you write it on top of Mach instead of NT.  Vapor caveats  
not included.

--
Don McGregor | Double your pleasure, double your fun.  Xerox
drm@esl.com  | your paycheck.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: DOOM!
Keywords: doom
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 05:39:19 GMT

In article <1hntlbINN5k5@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> strat@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis) writes:
>terry@squid9.cuc.ab.ca (Terry Wilcox) writes:
>
>>Every year NeXT ignores these people and continues on. It enjoys modest  
>>success.
>
>No you didn't say what you meant here.  What you meant to say was:
>"Every year NeXT continues blundering along making an endless litany
>of bad decisions, yet continues to avoid catastrophic failure."

No, I said exactly what I meant. Would NeXT stop making mistakes if it
listened to all of the contradictory opinions posted in these groups?
I doubt it. NeXT makes mistakes. All companies make mistakes. Who are
we to judge which mistakes are stupid ones. Sure hindsight is 20/20
and we can criticize NeXT for mistakes that have been made, but what
do we know of NeXT's future mistakes?

I don't have any idea of what happens at NeXT. I don't know what their
finances are like, I don't know what chip the NRW will use, and I don't
know what their future plans are. I do know that I won't criticize NeXT
for using the wrong chip when I don't know what chip they plan to use. I
won't criticize NeXT's financial management when the only info I have
is guesses from the media. I certainly won't criticize NeXT for what may
happen in the future.

So NeXT isn't skyrocketing to the top. I can live with that. As long as
NeXT continues forward its mistakes can be minimized. The day NeXT 
stops innovating for fear of making a stupid mistake is the day it becomes
just another computer company.

Terry Wilcox
From: ijeff@hank.carleton.ca (Ian Jefferson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:05:03 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

In <1992Dec25.143726.3939@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:

>>I've got to ask. Why do I need a parallel port? Why do I need more than a 
>>brainless printer? As it is, I've got a fast 400 DPI laser. That's better 
>>than most PC users, and they have parallel ports and intelligent printer.
>>All they have to worry about is drivers and cables and incompatibilities and
>>font cartridges...


>	Hewlett Packard LaserJet 4M Postscript Level two < $2500.

>	600 dpi, 8 ppm.

>	No processor time sucking.

Well if you print large images like I do then you are going to run out of memory on your HP.
The NeXT printer is the only 8 ppm printer that actually seems to print at 8ppm all the rest
only sometimes do includeing the HP.

>	Still think the NeXT laser is a good deal?  Then consider:
> 
>	HP LJ4 (not PS) + 4 megs: $1500 
>	ghostscript (free)
>	== postscript 600 dpi for $400 more than the NeXT edu price.

>	NeXT designed their systems so that adding non-next peripherals
>	(who else would be dense enough to make a printer that can only

Apple and some other hardware manufacuters have done the same thing so that some printers will only
work with the Mac.

>	hook to a NeXT??) is either impossible, or agonizing.  A parallel
>	port (which would add, what, 30 cents to the cost of the machine?)

It takes board realestate I don't think there is much left and besides, printing at 
38.4 Kbytes/sec vs printing through a ppl port is at best marginaly slower.  Also we
avoid parallel printers because we can't do printer accounting with them.  If you really 
want good, standard connectivity then go with ethernet which is available on most new 
printers.  What's wrong with that?

>	would have opened the doors to printers that are arriving now.
>	By the end of '93, those lowly PC users will be buying fast
>	600 dpi printers for about $1000 to $1200. 

So you can still buy them and use them!

I've always find the objection to the NeXT printer strange.  Why is it
that people think that a slower printer with a slower connection the 
host that has a processor that can't print some images is a better deal
than a faster simpler printer that can?  Perhaps NeXT could glue a dsp
on the cover of the printer and then you would be happy!

Better more expensive printers do exist and you can connect them.  So what
is the big deal?  Parallel ports are silly  unidirectional devices at best.
Better to go ethernet or appletalk.


>>
>>Terry Wilcox
>>
>>PS. I forget emulation and TrueType and all that crap.
>>


>-- 
>       "If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

>     Equality is a delusion, suffering is a fairy tale and God is a fantasy.
>       Blaming society for inequality is like blaming the sky for rain.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Jefferson 	ijeff@ccs.carleton.ca No NeXT mail please!
		ijeff@computeractive.on.ca NeXT mail please!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gerben@rna.indiv.nluug.nl
Subject: Re: A rosy forecast for 93
Organization: G.R.O.S.S.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:58:55 GMT

In article <Jan01.223703.26806@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>  
randall@redfish.atmos.colostate.edu (Dave Randall) writes:
> An optimistic forecast for 93

[nice dream deleted]

> 
> 5. A port of NeXTSTEP to SPARC is announced, and reaches the market late in the  
> year. Sales are brisk. Further ports are planned (SGI, PowerPC).

I'm afraid NeXT does not have the power to produce so many ports in such a  
timeframe. They are 6 months late at least on 486 already.

--Gerben
-- 
Gerben Wierda                 Tel. (+31) 35 833539
  "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
  From the Talmud(?), rephrased in Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland".

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 08:33:13 GMT

In article <1h3hghINNg8p@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> ovrskeek@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (I am the OVER-skeek!) writes:
>andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern) writes:
>
>>From what I understand, the new PA processors come out slightly ahead
>>of the Alpha at *two thirds* the clock rate...   i.e. a 99mhz PA is
>>just a wee bit (not enough to really matter) faster than a 150mhz
>>Alpha.  Pretty killer.  I wonder if HP will be able to crank the clock
>>rates up without the suckers melting...
>
>The only problem with this is that the Alpha goes to 200mhz.....

True, but has HP announced that it will have 150mhz parts soon?


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com      | "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke, but THIS
Andrew Loewenstern       |  kind of smoke I can handle!"
Cube Technologies, Inc.  |  John Draper, aka Captain Crunch Dec 18, 1992
0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:16:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.051539.5455@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>
>	Pretty interesting considering NS486 is still vapor.  Bout
>	as realistic as Bill Gates giving a lecture on Microkernals
>	based on his background in NT (which, so I've heard, is minimal).
>
Are you sure you mean vapor? There are developers out there with beta
copies. People have seen demos. There are published hardware requirements
(sort of). The only thing you can't do is go to the store and buy it. I 
think you're just a bit confused.

I doubt that anybody could lecture on microkernals based on their knowledge
of NT. NT isn't a microkernal.

Terry Wilcox
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:46:54 GMT

>In article <1992Dec17.225741.477@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com  
>(mark.d.wuest) writes:
 <muck about Mr. Bill deleted>
>Remember who wrote TRS-DOS?

I can't believe you guys let me get away with this! Mr. Bill's company
just wrote the Basic interpreter, not the OS. I have no idea who wrote
TRS-DOS.

"Oh nooo! Please, Mr. Bill! Don't make me learn messy dos! Ohhhh! AIEEE!"

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mdw@violin.att.com (Sun Mailtool Ok)    |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen)
Subject: New Years Wishes
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 19:37:17 GMT

In 1993 I hope to see

  -  a release of NeXTSTEP 3 that is robust and nearly bug free

  -  a version of NeXTSTEP for the 486, selling at six figure rates

  -  a delightfully useable and affordable NeXTSTEP portable

  -  a very fast hardware platform shipping with NeXTSTEP

  -  coherent vertical off-the-shelf product suites from third parties
     (e.g., if I want to set up a complete, interoperable documentation
     shop I can buy all the pieces and it all just works together)

  -  better acceptance of NeXTSTEP as a users choice (not just programmers)

  -  a plan for NeXTSTEP on all workstation-class platforms

  -  updates to Improv, WordPerfect, Illustrator, and other major
     products into better NeXTSTEP applications

  -  signs of NeXT, Inc.'s profitability and perhaps even IPOing

  -  more shipping and less announcing a year early

At this point the major innovations - OOP for real world, NeXTmail, DPS,  
graphical UI construction, better interoperability in client end, more seemless  
UI - are ready for prime time. NeXT should continue to innovate, but it is time  
to separate that from the innovative product that has matured a bit. Getting  
NeXTSTEP onto more desktops is the best thing NeXT can do for the computing  
industry.

I don't want to be pointing at other stuff in five years and say "I was working  
with the NeXT technology that their product finally captured". Innovation can  
continue and eventually get onto the shipping products in the future. But  
holding up the process of converting mainstream buyers with more innovation  
does all of us - potential users, current users, current developers, NeXT - a  
disservice.

In 1993 I want to see that corner turned, from the hot innovation to the hot  
selling product.

Mark R. Thomsen

Merry Christmas!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT (Not!)
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:03:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.161337.22340@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu  
(Yamanari) writes:

> >> 	Pretty interesting considering NS486 is still vapor.
> >
> >You should get out more often.  NeXT has been showing
> >NeXTstep 486 to the public since Jan '92.  We had a copy
> >running on a DeLL 486-50 system for a demo on campus two
> >weeks ago.  It ran fine, only crashed in flames once ;-) 
> 
> 
> 	Can you buy it?  Vapor.

Bullshit.  It was as real as the demo NeXTstation Color I
used months before they were being sold.  It was as real as
NeXTstep 3.0 was when I played with it before the public
even knew it existed.  NeXT delivers, baby, sometimes a
bit later than we all wish, but just as surely as Windoze
sucks. 

> 	<By your reasoning, NT and OS/2 Mach are also both real>

I'd barf on those words, thanks anyway.

--
Nathan Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu

Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)