HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jim_Brownfield@radical.com (Jim Brownfield)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (processor comparison)
Reply-To: Jim_Brownfield@Radical.Com
Organization: Radical System Solutions, Inc.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 00:00:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.190008.25875@ohsu.edu> filibert@vista (Daniel Filiberti)  
writes:
[deleted]
> 
> I'm not necessarily being a proponent for the Alpha, I
> just think its great news that DEC finally seems to have
> done something right, and with some sort of vision. 

Putting myself in the unusual position of defending DEC :-), this comment is a  
little unfare.  DEC is a company that historically has shown a lot of vision  
(the late 1980's lack of vision is more the exception than the rule).  VMS is  
still a good operating system even though the architecture is 15 years old.   
Although I *LOVE* (forget the comments, it's too easy :-) ) my NeXTs and  
NeXTstep, there are still things that are easier to do in VMS (like  
simultaneous asynchronous I/O's on multiple devices from the same process).

One of the things that has consistently hurt DEC is their attitude toward the  
rest of the computer world.  DEC has had the attitude that everybody outside of  
DEC is the enemy, and DEC can do everything.  They isolated third party  
hardware and software developers and forced the cost of owning DEC equipment  
much higher than it would have otherwise been, and they have paid a heavy price  
for it.  I hope that the advent of the Alpha also accompanies a more open,  
cooperative attitude for DEC (a sort of kinder, gentler DEC :) ).  With the  
Microsoft Windows NT deal, this seems to be the case.

> 
> As an aside, the article further states that over 600
> software suppliers have agreed to port their software to
> the Alpha architecture, included among them many
> leading companies...etc, Sounds good if its true. ;) 
> 

Another thing the Alpha brings to the table is the 64 bit architecture.  This  
increase in address space will make things like large realtime video projects  
much easier to do (assuming, of course, that you have the peripherals to handle  
all the data).  And, 64 bits means it can count higher ;-).  If the Alpha is as  
hot as everyone keeps saying it is, NeXTstep on an Alpha could be pretty  
awesome.

>  
> Daniel Filiberti

--
Jim Brownfield (Jim_Brownfield@Radical.Com)  NeXTmail accepted
Radical System Solutions, Inc.
rad i cal \'rad-i-kel\ n -- a basic principle: FOUNDATION
From: Mitch.Alland@p956.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: edwardj@microsoft.com (Edward Jung)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT(It's only the beginning...)
Date: 02 Jan 93 06:45:31 GMT
Organization: Strategy Division, Microsoft Corp.

vhs@rhein-main.de writes:

>> again, base OS services are not that interesting any more.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Then why do you cite nothing but base OS services as positive
>points for NT?

Because, as I said earlier, the upcoming Windows 3.1/NT product
is a release that exists to establish an OS foundation for such
work. Once you have the kind of functionality you get in NT or
Mach 3.0, base services are pretty complete for a "traditional"
operating system. Far be it for me to say that it is unfortunate
that there isn't more "innovative" (rather than traditional)
base OS work in the world...

--
Edward Jung, Software Architect     edwardj@microsoft.com
Advanced Systems, Microsoft Corp.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:13:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.065523.18290@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.051539.5455@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu  
>(Yamanari) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec23.010923.3689@mercury.cair.du.edu>  
>lbrahm@denver.cba.du.edu (Lans Brahmantyo) writes:
>> >Hmm, ... I thought Jobs has been the keynote speaker in several  
>important  
>> >computer exhibitions and shows this year! I must say that he is gaining  
>> >credibility with his Object-Oriented stuffs and NeXTSTEP 486. Perhaps,  
>your  
>> 
>> 
>> 	Pretty interesting considering NS486 is still vapor.
>
>You should get out more often.  NeXT has been showing
>NeXTstep 486 to the public since Jan '92.  We had a copy
>running on a DeLL 486-50 system for a demo on campus two
>weeks ago.  It ran fine, only crashed in flames once ;-) 


	Can you buy it?  Vapor.

	<By your reasoning, NT and OS/2 Mach are also both real>

>
>--
>Nathan Janette
>PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu
>
>Please reply to: nathan@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)
>


-- 
	"If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"
			Equality is a delusion.
	     Rule 1:  "Don't have more children than you can feed."
	  	  Nuclear redevelopment for a better world!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 04:05:23 GMT

In article <72148@cup.portal.com> kent_stuart_smith@cup.portal.com writes:
>introduced, there will be a big push for that product that will obliterate
>NS '486,as well as Mac networking. It won't matter that Windows NT is a secon
>d rate product- it will be a huge success just because Microsoft is behind it


	Marketing can only do so much.  From what I've seen of the NT beta,
	it is *very* good.  It is slow, but it is *very* stable, and a charm
	to install and deal with.  And that's a beta.  Still, I think MS 
	bit off more than it can chew--while NT is very good and very 
	stable, it is also very buggy (mostly related to the DOS and Win16
	subsystems--NT itself is pretty much finished).


>Its much like Ford Motor Co. in the early part of the century.  I fear that
>NeXT will be be eventually bought by the Japanese.  They may be able to 


	Pardon, but doesn't Canon already own more than 50% of NeXT?

>eventually use NS in a successful fight with Microsoft in the future. I also 
>fear that Jobs won't be able to hold out forever- remember, he's lost a lot
> of his fortune in NeXT, as well as his credibility in the computer world. It
> took me back to see the cheap prices of NeXT machines offered by Spherical
>(even though they are used).  Watch out for the prices, though when NeXT is a
>wholly owned Japanese company...

	The day NeXT becomes a wholly Japanese owned company is the 
	day I start rabidly campaigning for Windows NT.  Not that NeXT
	has exactly been the users friend ("Hey, let's design our
	machines without parallel ports, sell a brainless laser engine
	and paper feed in a box and make it impossible for users to 
	buy much more powerful printers for themselves!!"  -- re: 
	NeXT $1000+ "dumb" printer vs. just about any printer in the 
	last 4 years), and not to be xenophobic or paranoid or anything,
	but we are already in a pretty bad way and don't need our software
	industry's jewels going overseas as well.

 



-- 
	"If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

	     Rule 1:  "Don't have more children than you can feed."
	  	  Nuclear redevelopment for a better world!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: End of the Year (was Re: End of NeXT)
Keywords: friendly sarcasm enclosed
Date: 31 Dec 92 14:19:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: hot.1992Dec31.141936.4222
Reply-To: Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com
Organization: Hot Technologies

In article <1992Dec30.090355.25626@microsoft.com> edwardj@microsoft.com  
(Edward Jung) writes:
> [The holiday season gives me time to peruse these great advocacy
>  discussions... entertainment for all!]

Let the entertainment begin...
 
> A final point. Microsoft has traditionally focused on customer
> needs.

Edward,

I've been meaning to ask someone at Microsoft what the term "Unrecoverable  
Application Error" means.  Is it something I need?  I can't seem to find  
it on NeXTSTEP.

> NeXT, and Jobs, have focused on anticipating the needs
> that customers don't have yet, but probably will.

Customers don't have the need yet for an intuitive interface, previewing  
of PostScript images, reading and writing DOS and Macintosh diskettes,  
Microsoft Rich Text Format or any of the other rocket science features.

What customers really need is an operating system that requires the  
constant use of "ALT-CTRL-DEL", QEMM, a LED display on their hardware  
indicating the clock speed and a matching mouse mat.

When it comes right down to it, NeXT users are needy.  Specifically, NeXT  
needs to address these needs and ship Solitaire with every NeXTSTEP 486  
system.

Here's a question to ponder in the new year:

What features of Windows 3.1 do NeXTSTEP users need?

Robert

P.S.  Rumor has it that Lotus uses the number of DOS/Windows 3.x reboots  
per hour for limit testing their bar graphs.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gbowie@dreams.skidmore.edu (Gavin Bowie)
Subject: Re: the REAL problem is...
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:14:47 GMT

> The NeXT has and continues to have excellent potential.  But the  
> problem is that potential is all it has.  Unless some big apps come out  
> for the NeXT (or some fast, and very much needed, relief via software,  
> for example, Microsoft Word or Excel on the NeXT), or something happens  
> to get a lot of people into the NeXT, it will become another has-been  
> with a good idea.
  
YES, but even if Word/Excel come out as NeXTApps, why should I purchase a  
NeXT to run them?

NeXT needs something that will make it worth buying.

So far, the GUI and NeXTMail is what I see as the NeXT's ONLY Advantage.
What can a NeXT do that another platform won't (easily) do
and WHY do I need it?
and WHY should I buy 200 of them to give to everyone in my office?

ps I dont give a damn about development. 
 Unless someone (else) is doing it FOR ME, making an app that I can either
 Use or Sell.
and I dont care a lot about speed, either...
although I do get sick of waiting for my Mac IIci to deal with TIFF's

--trip
more than happy to have NeXTMail.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Reply-To: vhs@rhein-main.de
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 11:38:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.143726.3939@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
> 	NeXT designed their systems so that adding non-next peripherals
> 	(who else would be dense enough to make a printer that can only
> 	hook to a NeXT??) is either impossible, or agonizing.  A parallel
> 	port (which would add, what, 30 cents to the cost of the machine?)
> 	would have opened the doors to printers that are arriving now.

Most workstations don't have a parallel port. Sun only recently ('92)
integrated one into their new desktop models. Others don't have'm at all.
Sun also makes a printer (400dpi, 12ppm) that connects only to a
Sun-compatible machine. IMHO the best idea for a printer port is an
ethernet interface with TCP/IP on the printer.
Flaming NeXT for not having a parallel port is sort of like flaming
Apple for not having a C=64 compatible expansion port (You can hook
up a lot of useful and cheap peripherals to a C=64 expansion port ;-) 

--
Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@qb.rhein-main.de)

Looks good on the outside, but -
	intel inside
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:02:14 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Dec28.144435.26014@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu  
(Yamanari) writes:
> > In article <1992Dec27.172242.4046@cuug.ab.ca> wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca
> > (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361) writes:
> > You mean Chrysler didn't actually order NS486? McGaw
> > (sp?) cellular didn't order it? They shouldn't have
> > announced ordering it if they can't. 
> > 
> Nice.  Now, when will they take delivery?  I'm sure that if I
> was a corporation, I could order 100,000 copies of 
> Taligent's Pink ahead of time. 

You could guess with a fair degree of certainty that they
will receive a healthy number of pre-release copies. I'm sure
that they already have a number of eval copies. Do you
think large corporations select items for purchase without
performing due dilligence?

> In any case, take anything you read in a newsgroup with a
> grain of salt.   

I do.


Gordon
 

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: billb@nasty (Bill Burcham)
Subject: Weight of NT OS-level "objects"?
Keywords: NT,Smalltalk,Windows,Microsoft,Object Oriented
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 23:44:58 GMT

Will OO languages shipped for NT be able to base objects on NT objects, or  
will objects in a running app exist in a whole different name space?  I  
guess the question is will NT allow a user process to create just objects  
(abstract).  I think lots o' cool things could happen if we could do this.
--
+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|          Bill Burcham          | "Make no small plans; they have  |
| First National Bank of Chicago | no magic to stir men's souls"    |
|    billb@fnbc.com  (NeXTmail)  |      Daniel J. Burnham           |
+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+
From: strat@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DOOM!
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:04:27 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Keywords: doom

terry@squid9.cuc.ab.ca (Terry Wilcox) writes:

>Every year NeXT ignores these people and continues on. It enjoys modest  
>success.

No you didn't say what you meant here.  What you meant to say was:
"Every year NeXT continues blundering along making an endless litany
of bad decisions, yet continues to avoid catastrophic failure."

Stratocaster
-- 
	   Steve Davis (I'm a student, not a spokesperson!)
      strat@cis.ksu.edu - Kansas State University - Manhattan KS
				   
The white porcelain is screaming ayee! Thank god the boy's not alone. - Primus
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  the REAL problem is...
Distribution: world
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:21:05 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

In article <BzLJvs.Jn2@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens) writes:
>I agree completely with Gavin Bowie's post.  There are a few points I
>wish to add.
>
>NeXTSTEP 486, as much as it has cost NeXT and as good intentions as
>NeXT had when they set out on doing it, is gonna cost NeXT plenty

    I agree as well, a very good point!

    I think the question is:  "do you want NeXT to continue as it has in
    the past?"   How many people believe that NeXT will get radical results
    without changing what has been it's focus for the last few years?  I
    personally do not think it can happen.

    NeXT is treating NS486 like everything else they've done in the past
    and they are going to get exactly the same results as they have with
    past introductions... not bad, but not fantastic either.  Nothing
    radical is going to occur unless NeXT's attitude changes.

>it work well.	I've posted before about things I'd like to see in
>NeXTSTEP word processors, and I think a few of those ideas would be
>great wrapped up inside a Text object because the more people that used
>would mean the more applications (and thus the more users) that could
>benefit from it's advances.

    It certainly is not a push for OOP when NeXT's own bundled software is
    less sophisticated then existing commercial software.  Regardless of
    the potential of OOP, it is the reality that users see on their screens
    and touch with their fingertips that effects their decisions.  Most
    people see the NeXT's background abilities (cut & paste, etc...) as so
    much window dressing, it does not relieve the designer of the App
    (Edit! for example) of the implementation of necessary features.  From
    this point of view one does not see the NeXT as a machine of the
    future. Indeed, there are many problems even on the technical side...
    for example, no one has yet to properly implement and support threads
    nor has anyone implemented a reasonable OS-supported asynchronous I/O /
    process interrupt subsystem (unix signals are a joke... inefficient,
    limited, no prioritization.  For that matter, mach signals are a joke
    too).  The efforts so far are ineffective, inefficient (slow when they
    simply do not need to be), and so messy that NeXT recommends people
    not use them (mach threads, for example).

    In anycase, I'm getting off track here.. better to stick to my original
    agreement.

					-Matt

>--
>-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
>-- NeXTmail welcome

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gerben@rna.indiv.nluug.nl
Subject: Re: the REAL problem is...
Organization: G.R.O.S.S.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:09:58 GMT

In article <BzoHro.2tw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)  
writes:
> Chuck Waltrip writes
> > But NeXT's only real asset is its (diminishing) head start in 
> > the OOP arena.
> 
> I agree; I don't believe that significant numbers of people are  
> migrating to, have migrated to or are starting with NeXTSTEP.  By  
> 'significant', I mean that NeXT, Inc.'s profits haven't shown enough  
> growth.  I'd say that if the people with money are truly interested in  
> OOP, then they'll wait until it's available from Microsoft or Taligent.   
> I think it's another case of the masses saying, "What we've been doing  
> and what we're doing now is working for us, so why change to something  
> else small like NeXTSTEP?"
> 
> I think if NeXT realized that developers are not where the money is,  
> they'd have a more profitable NeXT hardware investment.
> 
> I think that users are the key to the success of the NeXT.  Users tell  

Well, not quite. IBM tried to to it that way with the original OS/2 stuff. It  
failed miserably, because of lack of software.

What NeXT is trying to do is copy the original succesful Apple scheme: edu - niches  
- corporations - mass market. They lack the resources Apple had originally from the  
succesful Apple II, which makes the NeXT project a 'little' bit more difficult.
-- 
Gerben Wierda                 Tel. (+31) 35 833539
  "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
  From the Talmud(?), rephrased in Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland".

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: raj@cup.hp.com (Rick Jones)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:28:48 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Greg Vesper - RMS (vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: 
: HP needs to get PA RISC going with SMP. but I doubt HP/UX is up to the task.
: 

Well, if you are willing to buy a large box (it wouldn't even be
deskside - perhaps roomside :) you could have an HP PA RISC SMP
system, and it would be running HP/UX too :) It is called an 890,
a.k.a. Emerald, or the "Corporate Business Server," it depends on 
your being a techie, a labbie, or a marketroid:)

SMP on or beside the desk is a different topic presently...

rick jones
these opinions are mine, all mine, HP probably wouldn't want the anyway 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: the REAL problem is...
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:58:57 GMT

In article <Bzo9Gs.721@netnews.jhuapl.edu> chuck@nighthawk.jhuapl.edu (Chuck Waltrip) writes:
>
>	The market is available:  port NeXTSTEP to NT and NeXTSTEP apps
>	can run alongside Windows.  No worries about selling potential
>	users on an unknown OS.  Let them keep their NT until they don't
>	need it anymore.  Then the BBBs (beautiful black boxes) can move
>	in and the '86s can become historical relics along with IBM.
>
>	But there's not much time folks.  Lots of other folks with big
>	money have been working furiously on developing object-oriented
>	environments.  NeXTSTEP is there for them to learn from and 	 
>	improve upon.  We need NeXTSTEP on NT as soon as NT is introduced.
>	Otherwise, Redwood City might as well be the Palo Alto Research
>	Center.  (But it will have been fun while it lasted 8^}
>

Why should NeXT waste its time porting to NT? NT isn't even a microkernal.
Contrary to what NT promoters think, there's no Mach in NT. Check out 
comp.os.mach. In any event, it's Windows. People will buy Windows NT,
not NeXTSTEP NT. People need that Windows buzzword, not the NT bit.

NeXT is better off spending its time and money on hardware ports (eg 486) 
instead of re-doing the entire OS just so it's DOS compatible. 

All of the 'other folks with big money' are going to Mach. AIX and OS/2
are moving to Mach, not NT. Cairo, Microsoft's OO-thing, is years away.
Why would anyone want NeXT to abandon what it has to go back a generation
to NT?

Terry Wilcox
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of NeXT(It's only the beginning...)
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:33:27 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu

In article <1992Dec30.175353.5453@ohsu.edu> filibert@vista (Daniel  
Filiberti) writes:
> 
> Unfortunately, this makes Microsoft always one step
> behind, doesn't it?  By the time they realize that their
> customers need something, someone else has already
> provided that service.  It seems to me that Microsoft has
> been benefiting from the "I'm waiting for NT!" attitude
> for a long time now.  One of these days, the new ideas will
> move too fast for them and they will fall so far behind that
> their users will lose patience, and purchase a NeXT ;).
   
Don't underestimate Dave Cutler, I've been in awe of his operating system  
accomplishments ever since RSX-11A (Yes A!).
Ray
jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu
From: isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Future of Next, Inc.
Date: 29 Dec 1992 02:08:29 GMT
Organization: Cubic Solutions - NeXT software development and consulting
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <725477459.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Mitch.Alland@p956.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) writes:

[ yet another prediction of NeXT's demise omitted ]

If I recall, Mitch, you have already sold your NeXT hardware, so you have
escaped the sinking ship unscathed.  Good show and a shrewd move as well :-)

The rest of us poor slobs are destined to go down with the ship, I guess :-)
-- 

Art Isbell                                                      Cubic Solutions
NeXT Registered Developer #745         NeXT software development and consulting
NeXTmail: isbell@cats.UCSC.EDU                             Voice: (408)335-1154
USmail: 95018-9442                                           Fax: (408)335-2515