From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Refutations Refuted! (was all arguments...)
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:59:31 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In this condensed post, I include that facts and sources to claim
that an embryo may not be an embryo, except for the luck of the
draw of location. (No insult intended to you ladies, you are by no
means a "mere location")

>rink
     11. The fetus is mere tissue or only uterine in content.
     
There is no such "plot" among pro-choicers. (Where do you get your
information?) It is human (adj) but not a human. (See the
difference?) Anyway, the tripe and misinformation about the
developmental stages has been deleted, and it is strongly
recommended that link, uh, rink, research a biology text written
for someone above the third grade reading level.
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From: bmc@mayo.edu (Bruce Cameron)
Subject: Re: About those UnBornThings

orr@turing.mcs.gvsu.edu (Wes Orr {Academic Computing}) writes:
|> In answer to your question any time one human sperm cell and one
|>human egg cell merge they are a living human being, biologically
|>speaking.  They have no genetic ability to become anything else.

Well perhaps, then again perhaps not.

There is no doubt that the cell(s) are living, and biologically
human, but as for becoming something else ...

Cancer Cells vs. Embryonic cells

	Observation:
	     cancer cells spread in a manner resembling embryonic
cell
	     migrations.
		     Barbera et al.-- demonstrated specific
adhesive
		     recognition may control homing of optic nerves
		     from retina to optic tectum
		     Nicolson et al.-- demonstrated that cells from
primary
		     tumors for secondary tumors at sites where
those cells
		     have greatest adhesion.

		     have greatest adhesion.

	Question:
	      do we have embryo-like tumors or tumor-like Embryos?
		   Mintz et al.--isolated teratoma cells, injected
the
		   cells into early blastocysts (mice). The
blasocysts
		   were allowed to implant into the uteri of other
		   female mice (different genotype from cancer
donor).
		   embryos developed into tumor free adults, but
with
		   cells of both genotypes.

		    also observed:
			(mouse)teratomas develop in clusters that
			 resemble (mouse) embryos & will
differentiate
			 into the embryonic tissue types if in a
			 suitable environment.

			 normal (mouse) embryos will form teratomas
if
			 implanted in the testes.

Now, if cancer cells can develop as an embryo does if placed in a
receptive uterus (suitable environment) and an embryo can develop
as a cancer if placed in an unsuitable environment, then are you
sure that an embryo can't change form?

sources:

Barbera et al., Adhesive Recognition and Retinotectal Specificity.,
Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. U.S., 70:2482-2486

Faber J.J., and Thornburg K. L., Placental Physiology, Raven Press,
New York, 1983

Mintz, B., Clonal Basis of Mammalian Differentiation., Symp. Soc.
Exp. Bio., 25:345-369

Nicolson, G. L. et al, Transmembrane Control of the Receptors
on Normal and Tumor Cells. II. Surface Changes Associated with
Transformation and Malignancy. Biochem. Biophys. Acta 458:1-72

Nicolson, G. L., Cell and Tissue Interactions Leading to Malignant
Tumor Spread., Amer. Zool. 18:71-80

--
--Bruce

"Truth is ultimately a philosophical concept,...,
 and standards of truth are adequate for practical
 purposes if they are substantially more reliable
 then the system undergoing evaluation"
				C. E. Metz
---------------------------------------------------
bmc@mayo.edu    (507) 284-3288  fax: (507) 284-9623
Mayo Foundation, 200 1st St SW, Rochester MN 55905
---------------------------------------------------
#include <std/disclaimer>             ARS -- WD9CKW
Ron                          Think about this one (seen on a bumper sticker):
			     The road to hell is bumper-to-bumper
			     Make a U-turn to God.
The irony is priceless.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion