From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: RE:RE: YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:54:05 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <85922@ut-emx.uucp>, btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) write
s:
>From: mj03@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MINHO JO) writes:

>Subject: YS SHOULD not BE QUALIFIED   ( RE: AFTERMATH of ELECION)


Preface:

       I thank my refrigerator which makes my head COOL.

                   Minho






>#### First of all, I have full of regret for starting postings in this net
>     where I believe I have encountered many disagreement from a few who do
>     not have proper attitude to exchange different opinions.
>     However, because of your labeling my political stands, I have to
>     continue this damn time consuming.



REPLY:
      I have read your several articles.   I have found you are so sensitive

      to somebody's comments.  You are now mentioning other guys' attitude.

      Before you complaine,  you are suggested to go back and think over

      the nasty words you used.

      The nasty words (ex. ridiculous, stupid,  IQ Uoon Uoon ....) are enough

      agressive to backfire.   Before you complain others labelling your

      political stand,   think of YS, who you support and who was labelling

      DJ communist follower.


      I feel sad to wast my time again in response to yours.



                 MAXIM:

                       Treat people with attitude you are expected to be
                       treated.







>     1.  Your title:
>     Then how can you accept the choice of Korean as a whole?
>     Are they all foolish?  Don't you accept the result?
>     Isn't it elitism?   I supplied my reasoning why DJ failed.
>     I have watched your restless support for DJ. When you postied titled
>     "SHOCKING NEWS.....", it was not shocking news to me and I thought
>     it was natural results from DJ or opposition party's fundamental
>      limitations, and so


      At least, some of YS supports are foolish.   They are victims of

      Minja's dirty election strategies.   The basic strategy of Minja

      was to build the Honam vs Non-Honam structure which should be kicked

      off .  The structure

      gives a great advantege to YS.  The number of legal votors in TK plus

      PK is about 7.5 million while Honam, 3.5 million.  Do you remember the

      Minja's slogan, "If you TK people vote for Jooyoun Jung,  DJ will

      be president."   The YS's dirty play that was spreading a bad rumor

      that DJ is

      a dangerous communist follower,  seemed to influence the

      conservative.   Can you believe DJ is a dangerous communist follower?

      However,  YS enjoyed the elcction with such a old and nasty attack which

      used to be employed by the previous army presidents.

      Can you believe that the votors who are stuck with Jiyuk-Gamjung, judge

      the candidates right ?






>     I posted my reasoning why he doomed to fail and


      Since I disagree with your analysis,  I have been posting my opnions.

      According to the polls,  DJ and YS were in neck-and-neck race right

      after the Pusan scandal.   But the Pusan scandale made TK and PK become

      solid for YS one day before the election day.  Kim Gi-Choon's

      Giyuk-Gamjung comments  triggered their moving.  You can check this

      from YS side's polls results, and others.   In fact,  Kim Gi-Choon was

      named heoro for the election by the Minja congressmen in a meeting.

      I believe DJ was victimized again by the old haunting.


      YS should be reponsible for Korean politics's backing to the old time.

      If you see  a survey conducted by Jung-ang Il Bo,  Which party is mostly

      doing corruptive election activities ?

                         Minja:   35 %
                         Gookmin: 36%
                         Minju:   2 %


      I don't think I need to comment that.



>     why I can not support him and why I can not forgive his sins which he
>     has committed in the past because I was his supporter.
>     Without giving alternative explanation, some netters distorted my postings
     pick up minimal data or words which they believed, can be attacked.


     But you forgave YS' morals, dishonesty, and betrayal,  didn't you ?

     It never justifies your argument.




>     I really want to your reasoning or explanation about what happened rather
>     than your propaganda as a ardent DJ supporter.


      I am happy to support him.



>btlee@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Mr. Byungtae Lee) writes:
>
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>First of all,  we appreciate your vigorous arguments.   I regret
>I missed chances to read all of your postings.   I agree with some of
>opinions,  however I disagree with many of your ideas.  I feel that you
>are so conservative.   In a sense,  you are a far-right extremist even if
>you don't like yourself to be categorized.
>
>        2.  My political stands:
>
>        It is the first time to hear this about my political attitude.
                   ^^^^^

          Double-check the posts, Aftermath of Election, to see if

          this is first.




>        I have kept asking you guys to provide your definition rather than
>         your "FEELING" and nobody did that so far. Even I got a blackmail
>        with full of emotional expressions.


         Again,  check first your FEELING on your previous arguments


>        Still I do not understand why you guys have to identify or name other
>        poeple's political stands without discussing the relevant issues.



> In reality,  even if one
>does not say which side he/she is in,   people can classify one in
>category,  based on his/her trends and preference,  and previous
>activities, comments,  and experiences.   Thus,  I carefully would
>put you in rihgt extremism according to your preference/dislike
>and comments.  You are also free to judge my trend based on what
>I said before and I am saying.
>
>
>          Give me examples which made you think I am a right-exptremist.
>          In addition I don't care what you are. I am only interested in
>          what you are saying. I have posted the facts which I thout were
>          wrong or outdated or I disagreed. That's it.
>          I did not blame anyone's preferences unlike you guys.



           You are still misunderstood yourself.









>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Now these are my opinions in reply to yours.
>Byeungtae's Claim:
>
>>        Why did you ignore the fact that YS trashed so-called "3-parties
>>        merging-secret-agreement" (Kak-Seo) of which core was parliamentary
>>        system, and rejected ChongChan Lee and TJ Park's request of that when
>>        he desparately needed them?
>
>Minho's DISCUSSION:
>         YS was in favor of the parliamentary system between the 87
>         presidential election and the 3-party merge.
>
Byungtae wrote:

>           Nope!  You are saying your story not his story.
>           What's the evidence of your side?
>           I told that it was DJ who pushed YS to merge in the previous
>           threads. Do you remember DJ's compromise with Roh regarding
>           mid-referendum after he achieved the largiest oppostion leader
>           based on regionalism after such betrayal to people's wish to have
>           the first civilian prez.


Minho writes:
            Politics is made progress by a sort of comprimise and yeilding if

            the better thing can be performed.   Yeilding mid-referendum

            made Roh do a lot of

            democritizations in the country.  But YS's changing party is

            different story.  Specially,  be noticed that Minja was

            artificially constructed by Gunbari.



>         Whenever people
>         reprimanded his preference of the parliamentary system over
>         the president-oriented system,   he withdrew his comments on
>         his favorite.   Moreover, I remember he announced  abrubtly that
>         he liked the president-oriented system changing from the
>         parliamentary system,  right after secret meeting with DJ.
>         Before announcing that,  of course he had mentioned many times
>         that he had preferred the parliamentary system.    I remember that
>         he repeated it several times during the period.   No matter when
>         he changed his preference,  he used to make bad use of the cheap
>         words,  "IF OUR PEOPLE WANT".    YS used to abuse the cheap words
>         when he went down back to his home time,  Geojea-Do after having
>         power games against other rivals within Minja-Dang.
>         He is still abusing the cheap words.
>######
>               You are saying the secret deal was his preference to
>               parliamentary system(PS). I do not agree. Only the reason
>               he merged was that that was only one way to be a prez because
>               there was his rival DJ in the opposition side and already
>               then political structure was degraded into rigionalism.
>######
>         Let's get to the point.   The first condition for the 3-party
>         merge was to change the constitution,  that is,  changing from
>         the presidential-oriented system to the parliamentary system.
>         He agreed with the main point at that time.  At least,  there
>         was no problem with the agreement since YS was in favor of
>         the parliamentary system too.    However,  YS broke the agreement
>         suddenly.   He even disclosed the secret agreement statement ((
>         For this scandal,  in the Gwanhoon Club press conference held just
>         before the 92 presidential election, YS refused for him to disclose
>         the secret statement.   He rather tried to imply Park Chul-Un did
>         it.   The columnist who asked him the question in the press conference
>         wrote in a column of Ha-Guk Il Bo,  "I am very disappointed with YS's
>         dishonesty,  I was well prepared evidences for the question.  I met
>         the YS's follower  to double-check it,  who gave a copy of the
>         secret staement to press men by YS's request.  Nevertheless,  he
>         was trying to hide the truth boldly".   The columnist
>         criticized YS's morals and dishonesty in the column.))
>#######
>              Don't you think it was his final bid and original intention to do
>              so?  When such instance broke out, almost all political analysts
>              agreed that he did not want to obey that secret deal and he knew
>              that he could break that deal because people did not like
>              PS and morever, TK did not have any significant poitical leader
>              he could win his candidacy. What do you think YS's motivation
>               to mergy then?   To be a prime minister? It's your story.
>
>              In additon, NO candidate denied the possibility of PS including
>              DJ in this election. He changed his firm objection to PS just
>              20 days before election.
>#######
>
>                    BTW,  WHY DID HE BETRAY the secret statement ?
>                    : First of all,  he realized that he couldn't
>                    be guaranteed the prime minister position since
>                    Minju-Gea could gain a few number of congressional
>                    seats.   YS got big deafeat in the congressional
>                    election before.  His political basis was limited
>                    only to Pusan.  His Minju-Gea got 4 or 5 seats even
>                    in Seoul.
>                    It was obvious that the prime minister
>                    should come from the majority paction,  Minjung-Gae.
>                    Therfore,  he had to bet a big gambling:  Breaking
>                    the promise.   Getting back to the presidential-
>                    oriented system (Also, he didn't forget to abuse
>                    the cheap words, "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT").
>##########
>                  Do you remember this happened before congressional election
>                  and because he had revealed his ambition just after merge,
>                  he had to face tough challenge from Chul-Un Park's side.
>                  Don't change history.












>                  Isn't "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT" the DJ's trademark?
>                  If he is cheap because of this, DJ is cheaper.


                   I don't want to tlak about whose trademark sicne SCK

                   friends must know what is true.

                   If DJ is cheaper,  YS is cheapest.







>##########
>
>                    He declared that he should be candidate of Minja-Dang
>                    for presidency with his own justification that he was
>                    only rival to compete with the powerful DJ.
>                    In conclusion,  I disagree with your insist that
>                    YS be consistent with preferring the prsident-oriented
>                    system.   He does NOT have any philasophy on what
>                    he prefer.  Of course,  the empty brain should not
>                    have any concrete philosophy and principles.
>                    His favorites are dependable on if he
>                    can grasb power or not.   When he broke the secret
>                    promise,  he didn't explain why he got back to
>                    the president-oriented system.   He only abused one
>                    sentence again at the moment at his home town, Geojae-Do,
>                    "SINCE THE PEOPLE WANT".   In the future,  YS are
>                    very likely to change the system,  depending on
>                    his political status.
>
>##########
>                        I already gave my judgement why I think he is(was)
>                        politically wiser than DJ who broke the opposition
>                        party in 1987 by foolish calculation.



                     You didn't get my points.



                     You never consider politician's basic morals, and

                     the people's opnions.    I can smell from your comment

                     that no problem with methods whatsoever,  only for

                     purpose.  I now come to know the real political wismdom.




>##########
>
>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
>
>>        My analysis(?) goes as follows:
>>        Without real political parties which have the firm roots in people,
>>        parliamentary system will be the compromise among a few political
>>        forces when any of them can not sustain their control over the country
.
>>        If any of them has the majority support of people or house,
>>        presidential system will be prefered.
>
>
>         Because of the above problem,   DJ promised to reform the party
>         systems (Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun) if he were elected.   I believe
>         that Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun can be achieved.   Because many of congressmen
>         in Minja-Dang are servants of the power,  many of them possibly
>         including some or all of the Gukmin-Dang,  must go to DJ who
>         is assumed to be president.    And so,  I don't worry about
>         the control problem.
>
>#########
>                Promise! Promise! Didn't you get my points. He could not build
>                enough trust from people because he changed so many his
>                promises.


                 DJ should do "Jung-Gea Gea-Pyun" to make him stable

                 regardless of his making promises.  I don't need to

                 explain it anymore.




>                 Arrn't  all politicians servants of the power?
                         ^^^


                  Read it carefully !!




>                Do you know the guys blamed DJ in  his own party and left him
>                and returned to him and so on?  Do you remember DJ has
>                negotiated with even CHUN, BokDong Kim, and JongChan Lee....
>                So do you mean your hero DJ will embrace so called servants of
>                power after election? Then what's the defference?
>#########


                At least,  DJ didn' sold his party at cheap price

                to Gunbari-Dang.













>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
>
>>        YS has more stable political basis and I do not think it will be
>>        difficult for YS to have the absolute majority in house.
>>        Why does he want to change it?
>>        On the other hand, unfortunately it was obvious again that DJ could
>                                                                    ^^^^^^^^
>>        not build his political base outside his province. I am from Choong-
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>        Buk where I could not find a bit of DJ support.
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>        Isn't it ridiculous that a man wants to be a national leader without
>>        political mechanism outside his province?  If he encounter tough
>>       opposition, what will be his choice?
>
>        I think your argument is ridiculous.    As far as I know,  DJ had
>        the neck-and-neck game in Kyunggi-Do and Choong-Nam.  DJ got 13 %
>        even in Pusan where YS's stronghold site is, while YS got 0.9 % in
>        Chulla-Do.   Definitely DJ got 38 % in Seoul winning over YS having
>        35 (or 36) %.     You said that you could not find a bit of DJ
>        support.   How can you explain that DJ got 25 % in the election
>        in Choong-Buk (YS got around 34 %) ?.   Is 25% a bit ?
>
>###############
>           You should have missed my following postings. Ok let me admit
>           "a bit" was mistake. However, what I said that he failed to reach
>          enough outside his home province and young progressive groups.
>          Did you read the article of so-called Pusan "Kikwanjanghoiui"?
>          Pusan has 10% ex-Homam people.


           You are always talking about Honam !,  Honam-based seoul people !

           Show me any evidence all of Honam-based seoul and Honam-based

           Pusan votors voted for DJ.   How can explain DJ got about 10 %

           in the TK area ?    All of them are again Honam-based TK people ?










>###########
>
>
>        You should keep in mind that YS got 28 % in 87 presidential election.
>        What if DJ had run in Minja-Dang clothes for 92 election ?
>        There is no doubt DJ could win the election,  surely DJ could
>        get more percent of voters than YS got.   He would have much more
>        support in all over areas with Yeo-Dang's premium.  You may disagree
>        with that.  (When you contradict that,  I want you first to anwer
>        my question, "Kwankwon's fairness",  for instant,  unfair to
>        Gukmin-Dang,  cracking down Hyndai's assists to Gukmin-Dang which was
>        crucial to the 92 election, and so on.)  However,  when DJ was
>        suggested to join Minja-Dang,  DJ rejected the
>        proposal of parties merging, while YS betrayed the peoiple accepting
>        the proposal.
>
>#######      Because he was enjoying his position of the largest oppostion
>             party in the first time in his life and He believed he got the
>             right way to be a prez.   In addition, he could not catch what
>             Roh was saying.


              I disagree DJ didn't catch it.

              He once mentioned the Roh's proposal at a press-man interview.

              He said that he declined the proposal because our party is

              basically diffrent from Minja in color,  princeples,  and

              objectives.



>              If he did, what do you think he might do?


               Before telling what he might do,  I wouldn' support him.

               I hope now that you can understand my political stand point.



>#######
>
>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
>           your school support YS.
>
>                QUESTION:  How old are they ?
>                           Where are from in Korea ?
>                           Do you think they are middle class or
>                           upper class ?
>                YOU MUST SPECIFY THE ABOVE THINGS.
>
>########


           I got the answer to the question from the guy who posted it.

           I am sorry that I can not reveal it in public.



>########
>
>       2. You insisted that most of your frieds supported YS in 87 elction.
>          You speciifed they were middle class.
>
>#########
>          When I took my experience, I was objecting the other netter's claim
>          that young generation supports DJ. What I said was that that's very
>          biased sampling.


           Don't you think yours is rather biased if your frieds are

           collegiates or collegiated ?     Recall that you said collegiates

           and colliguated people are in favor of DJ.






>
>   QUESTION:  Do you have any information on that after YS
>             betrayed the people joining Minja ?
>
>#########
>          You called it betrayal. But I did not.  Why?
>          Do you believe that his home province voted for him because he was
>          the opposition leader? No. to make him a president who is the son of
>          my home town. that's the logic behind his potical share. I insisted
>          that this is the consequence of splitting oppostion party in 1987
>          triggered by DJ.  After that we had only regional parties.


           Don't twist history.

           You are talking about the congressional election after YS

           joined Minja.

           Let's think of the congressional election before YS joined Minja.

           Pusan and other people supported his party since they like YS

           to be against the military regime at that time.  He was always

           shouting "Stop the military regime (Gun-Jung Jong-Shik)".

           However,  what did he do ?   He became  a follower of Gunbari Dang.

           He could be president by their assists.

           Recall my sayings, "The people who are stuck with regionalism can

           not judge something right".   This will be the same in Kyoungsang

           and Cholla.



           I can forgive a person, YS, but I can not forgive sins he commited.







           You didn't answer my question.




>#########
>
>    QUESTION:  How can you explain the results that most of
>               my friends in this school,  are in favor of DJ ?
>               Note:  Most of them are middle class,  f
>                             seoul,  and are 30th.
>#########
>            I DID mention that DJ has strong support form college-
>          or college-graduated voters. Do you think this group is the majority?
>           Wasn't it the answer?  Read more carefully
>           and do not repeat this stupid things.
>##########                        ^^^^^^
                                      ->  Gentle word,  great.




>          For good discussion, we need more cool heads.
>          Nether idealist without realism nor realist without idealism can
>          help our society very much.


           I agree


>          What I said was that oppostion party didn't have scientific approach,
>          was not realistic.


           I am sick of saying the same things again.    Simply,  without

           kicking off regionalism in Korea,  we can never select a well

           qualified,  wise,  smart, and popular president.  So, scientific,

           realistic whatever can not be applied in that sad situation.







     ***  One does not know what he is doing when he is out of control.

          "Know yourself".   It is really difficult maxim even if

          it is really simple sentence.








>                      Minho Jo, Lehigh University
>                      Computer Integrated Manufacturing Lab.,
>                      Industrial Engineering Department.
>                      MJ03@Lehigh.edu
>
>    PS: Do IEers like argument? I studied IE for my bacholar degree.
>        I'm still very interested in CIM tough.





Minho Jo.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean