HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell)
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Organization: Bradley University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 05:45:46 GMT

isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
>dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>|isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
>|>|Obviously they will stay where they are, and for that year, they will
>|>|be frustrated.  Meanwhile, though, things may be happening!  For
>|>|instance, their parents may be down at the PTA railing about how
>|>|Exclusivity High teaches calculus and has a dress code, and gets
>|>|regular 1600 SATs... this may help to change the local system so that
>|>|eventually, the local students don't want to leave any more.
>|>
>|>Why doesn't that happen now?
>
>|Because a lot of it is not controlled on the local level, it's mandated by
>|the state.  In order for there to be a choice of curriculum at a school,
>|the state has to approve you having the choice at all.
>
>I doubt that this will change with vouchers.  Minimal standards will
>be required, blah blah.

True, but we're not talking about minimal standards.  We're talking about
ANY change in curriculum initiated by the people whom the school serves.  A
private school, presumably, would change its curriculum if enough of its
customers wanted it to, or they would leave and send their kids somewhere
else.  This is above and beyond any minimal standards imposed by the state.

-- 
=========*davE*.....making the world safe for intelligent dance music.=========
 'Cause I can see the future, and it's a place....about 70 miles east of here.
--------------------------{dave@bradley.bradley.edu}---------------------------
From: daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:47:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Marrou/Lord TV Ads
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian

In alt.politics.libertarian, backpack@access.digex.com (Stuart Reges) writes:

> I apologize in advance for any slight errors in what I've typed in.  I've been
> working 60+ hours at the national office recently, and I don't have time to
> check and double-check the way I normally would.

Come on, Santa Claus would do it.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
From: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 30 Sep 92 09:16:19 MDT
Followup-To: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
Reply-To: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu
Organization: University of Utah, CS Dept., Salt Lake City

In article <1992Sep29.223953.26882@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>Because libertarians _define_ coercion to just mean physical coercion.
>It's certainly true that being in a bad situation economically can lead
>to you doing things that you don't want to do.

Cops kicking in your door to search your house is coercion, rent-a-cops
kicking in your door to search your house is not.  Oh, yeah, I forgot,
you had a choice when you signed your employer's contract--you could
sign it and give up rights, or you could starve.  

>The best I can say to that is that physical coercion is even worse,
>and that it seems as though most people who worry about economic
>coercion think that physical coercion is the solution.

Physical coercion is worse than economic coercion if you have lots of
money.  If you have no money, then then economic coercion can be much
worse.  Just like physical coercion is no big deal to muscle-bound guys 
with bazookas, but a big deal to 98lb. weakling pacifists.

Since, as most anarcho-capitalists keep saying, everyone should be 
trying to take care of themselves, why shouldn't poor people try to
set up a government that gives them leverage against corporations and
the rich?
From: isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:40:41 GMT
	<qa1euo8@zola.esd.sgi.com> <ISBELL.92Sep25211132@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<60698@mimsy.umd.edu> <ISBELL.92Sep28232318@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<9368@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
In-reply-to: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM's message of 29 Sep 92 15:58:14 GMT

mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
|>|Obviously they will stay where they are, and for that year, they will
|>|be frustrated.  Meanwhile, though, things may be happening!  For
|>|instance, their parents may be down at the PTA railing about how
|>|Exclusivity High teaches calculus and has a dress code, and gets
|>|regular 1600 SATs... this may help to change the local system so that
|>|eventually, the local students don't want to leave any more.

|>Why doesn't that happen now?

|Have you ever tried to get the school system to change.  With the
|current monopoly system they know that they have your kid whether
|you are happy or not.  Unless of course you are "rich" enough
|to afford a private school.  Firing incompetent teachers or administrators
|is darn near impossible.  If you think that a dress code and teaching
|calculus is important but the administrators of your district do not,
|then you are out of luck.  If the administrators of the district down
|the street from you happen to agree with you, you are still out of
|luck since there is no way for you to transfer your child to the
|district down the street.

Sure there is:  move or start your own school.

Of course, even in a private system, if you think dress code is
important and none of the neighboring schools do, then you're just as
out of luck unless you have the money and time to get your kid to a
school 20 miles away.
--
Peace.
               "Okay, okay... let's see.  Perfect woman.  Nice face,
                great tits, great ass, good personality.  In that order."
          "Why that order?"
               "It takes friends longer to notice a bad personality."
                            - Kyle Baker, _Why I Hate Saturn_
                                   -\--/-
    Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
          develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
                                   -/--\-
From: lando@cirrus.com (Dave Landis)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: >Why Should I Vote for Marrou?
Date: 2 Oct 92 03:46:51 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.  Fremont, California
Originator: lando@tango

Why?  Here are my reasons:

I'd feel guilty voting for Slick Willy.

I can't vote for someone who denied for so long that we were in
a recession. (If George had uttered the "R"-word from the offset,
I might respect him enough to vote for him.)

I'll probably remain a registered Republican, but I will probably
vote for Libertarians at the local level so they can be treated
more seriously and so the "Demopublicans" will take the public
more seriously.  This also holds at the national level too.

I'm a capitalist.  Do you think Slick Willy is?
(If you listen to "Moneytalk" on the radio, most, if not all
listeners from Arkansas, complain about his consistent policy
of taxing.  One listener said "he'll tax anything if it is not
nailed down.")

George can lobby for a $12 Billion atom smasher in Texas, yet
he labels Demoncrats as "tax-and-$pend".  I want to vote for
someone who spends _when_ he has the money, not by using borrowed
money.

Marrou is the only candidate that can seriously speak of cutting government
spending. He was instrumental in repealing state income tax
in Alaska.  That's a record that I like.

Last of all, I can use a clever .signature such as
"Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian."



-- 
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active
 in promoting pure and undefiled religion." John Witherspoon, signer of the
 Declaration of Independence.
From: thant@void.esd.sgi.com (Thant Tessman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Education (Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.)
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:33:22 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA


I wrote:

> |[...]  In this way well-
> |run educational programs are expanded upon and badly-run ones are 
> |weeded out.  It is exactly the mechanism by which education will
> |constantly be improving itself.

In article <ISBELL.92Sep25211132@panther.ai.mit.edu>, isbell@ai.mit.edu writes:

> I really don't see any reason for this to happen one way or the other.
> Unless you address the problem of where the kids who want to leave
> some school and go to a "better" one go while they're waiting, it seems
> to me that they'll just stay where they are and nothing will happen.
> [...]

Warning:  The following is sarcasm...

Sure, the free market is fine for something like education, but for
something as important as food, it would never work.  What's to guarantee
that people will know what kind of food to get?  or that food distribution
centers will be available in small towns?  or that parents will bother to
feed their children properly?  If it was left to the free-market, only
rich people would be able to afford food.  We need to regulate who can go
into the business of selling food, where their stores are located, who can
be hired in those stores and at what wages, and what kind of food should
be made available.  We need to set up a central Board of Nutrition to
oversee all this.  And since nutrition has economic externalities, it must
be a public good subsidized and controlled by society via government
regulation.

thant
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: FAQ?
Date: 5 Oct 92 04:35:04 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1992Oct3.222500.43561@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
}Subject line says it all...if no FAQ, what is the best single work
}setting forth contemporary Libertarian thought?
}-- 
}********************************** +.............................+
}*- Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>* :All opinions expressed herein:
}*There is no privileged position.* :are my own and are not to be :
}*	-God, Derrida, others    * : attributed to my employer   :
}********************************** +.............................+

The closest thing to a FAQ is "Libertarianism in One Lesson" by David Bergland,
available from Freedom's Forum books in San Francisco for less than $10 in
paperback.  (415)-864-0952.  It's also available from Laissez-Faire, but
they're not as much in need of the business as we are :-)...


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.
Date: 2 Oct 92 23:43:28 GMT
	<qa1euo8@zola.esd.sgi.com> <ISBELL.92Sep25211132@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<60698@mimsy.umd.edu> <ISBELL.92Sep28232318@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<1992Oct1.185033.20068@bradley.bradley.edu>
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
In-reply-to: dave@bradley.bradley.edu's message of 1 Oct 92 18:50:33 GMT

dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
|isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
|>|Nonetheless, other chain and franchise restaurants do branch out
|>|regularly as they succeed.  These may not have quite the quality, nor
|>|near the atmosphere or snob appeal of a five-star exclusive, but they
|>|feed a hell of a lot more people.
|>|I take it the analogy is not lost on you, so I shall not dwell on it.
|>
|>I'm tempted to make a joke about McDonald's as school system, but I
|>won't. 

|Out here in the Midwest we have DeVry Technical Institutes, which is
|basically a private chain (and referred to out here as McDonald's
|Institute of Technology).  I'm sure it's not on the level of Mass. IT, but
|it serves a lot of students and people do learn something there fairly
|cheaply.

DeVry is in Atlanta as well.  There's also ITT Tech and the like.

|>|Obviously they will stay where they are, and for that year, they will
|>|be frustrated.  Meanwhile, though, things may be happening!  For
|>|instance, their parents may be down at the PTA railing about how
|>|Exclusivity High teaches calculus and has a dress code, and gets
|>|regular 1600 SATs... this may help to change the local system so that
|>|eventually, the local students don't want to leave any more.
|>
|>Why doesn't that happen now?

|Because a lot of it is not controlled on the local level, it's mandated by
|the state.  In order for there to be a choice of curriculum at a school,
|the state has to approve you having the choice at all.

I doubt that this will change with vouchers.  Minimal standards will
be required, blah blah.

|>|Or, maybe the students will study harder because they know that
|>|Exclusivity High requires straight A's for a year to get in.
|>
|>Hmmmmmmm.  Given the competition for MIT, Harvard, Stanford or
|>whatever, I'm not sure why that doesn't happen now.

|It has to start earlier than that.  It's a lot harder to overcome 12 years
|of crappy schooling to leap into Harvard than to overcome a poor elementary
|school and do well enough to get into a decent middle school, then a good
|high school, and by graduation that leap to college isn't so big.

A good point.

[...]
--
Peace.
     "The US has a vital interest in that area of the country."
                -- Vice President Dan Quayle Referring to Latin America.
                                   -\--/-
    Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
          develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
                                   -/--\-
From: thant@void.esd.sgi.com (Thant Tessman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:48:21 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA


In article <1992Oct5.042029.3793@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu writes:

> No, just maing a simple mistake.  Only a legal positivist would say that a
> "social contract" must precede fraud proceedings.  Good libertarians are
> legal naturalists.  Fraud is what it is regardless of whether you or I
> agree about it, and proceedings against offenders are justified regardless
> of whether they think they've done anything wrong or not.

There are a few of us (libertarian/anarcho-capitalist/whatever) who 
think that 'law' is merely practical social convention.  The principles
upon which these conventions should be built are 'real' in the sense
that they can be rationally derived, but they are conventions none-the-
less.

thant

"Make money, not war."
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:20:29 GMT

In article <ISBELL.92Oct4103601@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
}|Oh.  You mean "commit fraud."  <gavel>  Next.
}
}You deleted the rest.  Your "commit fraud" comment *requires* a
}"social contract" which I haven't signed.  I think this is fine *but*
}it was this very newsgroup where people argued that there was no such
}thing.
}
}Just making a simple point.

No, just maing a simple mistake.  Only a legal positivist would say that a
"social contract" must precede fraud proceedings.  Good libertarians are
legal naturalists.  Fraud is what it is regardless of whether you or I
agree about it, and proceedings against offenders are justified regardless
of whether they think they've done anything wrong or not.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Xref: sparky alt.politics.libertarian:550 alt.society.anarchy:334
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:26:51 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <parvin1.718259821@husc11> parvin1@husc11.harvard.edu (Douglas Parvin) writes:

>Suppose it's the dead of winter, and you are the sole provider of heat in
>my community.  Now I have three choices: I can move, I can freeze, or I can
>buy your product.  So, assume I'm poor and have no place to move to.  I
>then have the "choice" to buy your product or freeze to death.

A good capitalist wants to maximize his returns over time.
By charging too much one of several things will happen.

1) His customers die.  (Freeze to death)  No more profit there.
2) His customers leave.  (As soon as the weather turns nice everyone splits.)
3) His customers start finding alternate methods of staying warm.
4) Enticed by the huge profits he is making, a competitor in a nearby town
	sets up camp and starts to offer competition.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Measure 9 in Oregon
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 13:31:22 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan, Aerospace Engineering
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d11
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6F746424603C4FC@sprl-mac2016.sprl.umich.edu>
X-Xxdate: Tue, 6 Oct 92 13:33:54 GMT

In article <BvoMMK.7As@agora.rain.com> Robert Barton, robart@agora.rain.com writes:
>In article <BvMsCB.L4x@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> pjohnson@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca 
>(Peter Johnson) writes:
>>	To the Oregonians reading this newsgroup, what are you doing to
>>oppose Measure 9?
>
>
>  Measure 9 is severely flawed, because it does not define "homosexuality".
>Therefore it is likely to be thrown out because of its obvious vagueness.
>

Measure 9 is even more flawed because it attempts to control what an
individual does in their private lifes.  The only time I think a government
has the "right" to pass a "morality" law is when one person's actions
cause an unwanted effect on another, and the majority of the people support
it.  Homosexuality is (typically) between two consenting people, and it
affects no one else.  Government has no right trying to control it.

========================================================================
| Michael F. Kamprath                   | The University of Michigan   |
|   kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu |      Aerospace Engineering   |
|   kamprath@engin.umich.edu            |                              |
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| This country is a _democracy_.  It is NOT a "Two Party Sytem."  DO   |
| NOT believe The Lie that not voting Republican or Democratic will    |
| waste your vote.  Vote for who ever you please, and let the          |
| politicians find out what a democratic government is all about.      | 
========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: sturnbul@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen J Turnbull)
Subject: Re: Income tax or excise tax?
Organization:  Yaseppochi-gumi, a division of Skinny Boy Associates
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 21:59:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep16.172430.16197@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfeygin@eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>
>Since flat refund idea was introduced by myself I will try and defend its

Correction: introduced to this discussion.  I was quite chagrined when
I independently discovered the idea to find out that Milton Friedman
had long before worked out a lot of its implications in Capitalism and
Friedman.  Robert Hall of Stanford University showed us in (graduate)
macroeconomics that to provide (in 1977 dollars) a $10,000 breakeven
point, the tax rate would be approximately 23% to fund the U.S.
government at the 1977 budget, eliminating all taxes except that on
personal income and ignoring "incentive effects" (eg, lots more
driving, lots more drinking as prices of volatile liquids dropped :-).
That is, the floor income would be $7700.
    BTW, to the best of my knowledge (please correct if I am wrong on
anything here), neither Friedman nor Hall claimed originality; they're
just the earliest sources I know of.  Maybe we should all go back and
read them (that's a joke, this *is* the UseNet after all :-}).
----
Stephen J. Turnbull  /  Department of Economics  /  THE Ohio State University
"Why 'THE'?  IMHO, good thing there's only one!!"  My opinions are *mine*.
For more info on finding me, finger Turnbull.1@OSU.Edu; for more smoke and 
less light, finger turnbull@ecolan.SBS.Ohio-State.Edu.

-- 
Stephen J. Turnbull  /  Department of Economics  /  THE Ohio State University
"Why 'THE'?  IMHO, good thing there's only one!!"  My opinions are *mine*.
For more info on finding me, finger Turnbull.1@OSU.Edu; for more smoke and 
less light, finger turnbull@ecolan.SBS.Ohio-State.Edu.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Child Abuse in Arkansas
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:42:00 GMT

In article <31100@goofy.Apple.COM>,  (Rebecca Rhodes) writes:
|> Why would anyone wish to support a governer [Clinton] who's state is one of
|> the leading states in corporal punishment?  You know, where they paddle
|> public school children's behind with a wooden paddle heavier than a wooden
|> baseball bat and wider.  Sometimes with holes in it so it stings?
|> 
|> 
|> my opinions are not necessarily the opinions of my employer!

I thought this was going to be about child abuse and here it turns out
it is just about paddling.

				mike
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: rcollins@encore.com (Roger Collins)
Subject: Re: Child Abuse in Arkansas
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:13:58 GMT

(Rebecca Rhodes) writes:
>Why would anyone wish to support a governer [Clinton] who's state is one of
>the leading states in corporal punishment?  You know, where they paddle
>public school children's behind with a wooden paddle heavier than a wooden
>baseball bat and wider.  Sometimes with holes in it so it stings?

I won't vote for Clinton or Bush because they both want to solve the
nation's problems with more government, when the obvious answer is less
government intervention.  (I'll vote for Marrou.)  However, I went to
school and received corporal punishment once during my schooling.  I
fully support it in a reasonable, consistent disciplinary system.  As a
child, I never had any doubt about whether or not I could get away with
what kids get away with today.  Getting "licks" from the principal was
the most severe punishment except for suspension and expulsion.  I'm
glad I was in a public school that demanded reasonable behavior and I'm
glad I wasn't expelled.

From one who has experienced it, calling corporal punishment child
abuse is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Since this alt.politics.libertarians, I guess I should point out that
Libertarians support your sending your children (and other people's
children if you and they consent) to a school that educates children in
the way you approve.  In other words, this whole issue should not be a
government issue; it should be a teacher/school/parent/child issue.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy