From: ss733645@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Sohban Shahid)
Subject: Re: God help pakistan
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:44:10 GMT
Reply-To: ss733645@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu
Organization: Colorado State U. Civil Engineering

In article <1992Nov22.030917.654@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>, jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:
|> In article <Nov21.232810.53306@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> ss733645@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu writes:
|> >In article <By1oqK.I1L@ecf.toronto.edu>, rairan@ecf.toronto.edu (RAI Ranjan) writes:
|> >|> In article <gf3JGxy00iV405p1kR@andrew.cmu.edu> Asad Iqbal <ac46+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> >
|> >                          [12 lines deleted]
|> >
|> >Raj, I will try to answer your questions in sequential order and
|> >begins with the first one:
|> >
|> >|> 1)  Do you believe Pakistan would be better served with a democratic form
|> >|> of government?
|> >
|> >When you talk about Pakistan and its political structure then the
|> >first thing that comes into your mind is its political base.  Infact
|> >Pakistan has no political base that clearly fits into the domains 
|> >of democracy.  Being and Islamic country they have to have something
|> >different then the western democracy which in real time seems more
|> >practical to many of us.  But the truth is that,  Islam itself
|> >doesn't treat religion and affairs of state separetely.  So, the 
|> >political base has no specific meaning in an islamic system. They 
|> >have to have an envelope that covers both political and state
|> >matters of the country, which definitely is not the western
|> >democracy.  Now, if you consider their religion base it is as
|> >fragile as their political base.  One of the main reason, why army
|> >has ruled Pakistan more than its democraticaly elected people is that
|> >over the time and decades both religious and political parties have 
|> >failed to compromise on issues which might lead Pakistan to some psuedo
|> >western democracy. Pakistan and people of Pakistan can be best served
|> >if the members of legislative councils truely represents the people of
|> >Pakistan, which they unfortunately don't.   
|> 
|> Nonsense...

   Nadeem Jamali, you are too small for this material..so don't 
push hard on the wall it will hurt you.

|> 
|> >
|> >|> 2)  If so, then considering the fact that Mrs. Bhutto is the only Pakistanii
|> >|> leader ever to be democratically elected, wouldn't you agree that she more
|> >|> than anyone else should lead the pro democracy forces
|> >
|> >Your if argument now has some more elseif's.  Well, there is something
|> >which is not totally correct.  Benazir Bhutto is not the only 
|> >democratically elected government.  She treats democracy as her slave 
|> >and tried to use it, where ever it suits more to her.  Her political 
|> >party has no democracy in it, itself.  Bhutto family is trying to main
|> >a dynasty in Pakistan and many Pakistanis can't afford it.  When she
|> 
|> If the people still elect Bhutto, what right has anyone got to challenge
|> that.
   
   You mind telling me what class of people she represent?  People
with very minimal education and that benefits her a lot.  When
somebody gets vote on the basis of her sex and natural mishap (i.e, 
death of her father) what you will conclude on it?  I seriously
doubt that she would get a seat from a constituency where people
stress more on her programs and the credibility of her co-partners 
rather than showing their desire to  kiss her hands.   
|> 
|> >was in power, she broke the democraticaly elected Balochistan assembly 
|> >with the support of an old army general (retired) and then later denied
|> >her involvement.  Its real pathetic that when you are not in power every
|> >wrong doing comes from the government side and when she was in power 
|> >that undemocratic act was not from the government but and individual
|> >act, means the poor army general.  In short, her credentials doesn't 
|> >support the idea of giving her the lead of pro-democracy forces in
|> >Pakistan.  BTW, PPP claims that it has its roots in all the four
|> >provinces of Pakistan and this is not correct in its totality. 
|> >
|> 
|> More nonsense...  and BTW, you don't know anything about the Balochistan
|> assembly affair...

Oh man, this material is really too much for your brain.  You mind telling us
the real story.... a story that has presented Governor Musa as an idiot when
he was taking dictations from the federal government at 3 o'clock in the
morning.  I wish you could deny something with real facts but the world has
seen that undemocratic act of PPP (history repeats and in that case it really
did).

|> 
|> What I find really interesting is that you present your opinions as if 
|> they were known facts...

 I have no problem in taking my words back but I want you to prove them
wrong with some facts and figures, which seems quite difficult for you.

|> 
|> >|> 
|> >|> 3)  If you agree with question 1 but not question 2, then who else should lead
|> >|> Pakistan to democracy and why?
|> >
|> >I don't think so that any one of them deserve to be the prime minister 
|> >and president of Pakistan.  Certainly its the people of Pakistan who
|> >can lead Pakistan to democracy.  The argument is simple and clear, b'cos
|> >its their best choice in all.  But, the unfortunate thing is that they
|> >are not ready for this difficult task.  They are playing in the hands
|> >of few people who doesn't belong to them. Same condition in India, isn't it?
|> 
|> Yeah right.... people are playing in the hands of politicians... so, I guess
|> you want to take it upon yourself to decide who becomes Pakistan's leaders...
|> 
|> It's always going to be few people in the parliament.. yes, the few that the
|> people elect. These few people can change though. Give me one example of a
|> country with 50% of the population in the parliament. Pakistan has been under
|> martial law for so long, I guess you don't know what democracy means, and how
|> it works.

   Are you really that insane or you'r presenting yourself like this.  Man, when
somebody say that its the people who are responsible for something, it clearly
means that the real power is in the hand of masses.  If they are unable to decide
their future, they are the ones who will suffer later not a person who is taking
advantage of this weak situation. My argument was very general,  don't present
yourself as something which contradicts your identity.  I mean, if there is 
no democracy in Pakistan than why are they beating drums of democracy.  PPP is 
trying to present herself as a custodian of democracy while they don't have a 
slightest idea of it.  Nadeem, ignorance is one thing which many people can 
ignore but nobody and i mean nobody can buy that there is democracy in Pakistan.
So don't tell me that you have a good concept of democracy.  This is not something
which you can buy or cheat, you have to go through many stages and its still
a long way to go.  I again repeat than non of them are capable of running those 
head offices, they are all junkies.  

|> 
|> >
|> >|> 
|> >|> 4)  You obviously disagree with Mrs. Bhutto's tactics against the current
|> >|> government.  What other tatics would you suggest she use? 
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >If she is a diehard supporter of democracy then all of her actions are
|> >wrong.  B'cos she is repeating the same mistake which her opposition
|> >parties have made earlier.  If she wants to leave an ideal, then she must not
|> >follow the politics of 'arguments for the sake of arguments'. On the otherhand
|> >for the betterment of country she and other old faces should first resign from 
|> >politics and give chance to other people.  Must enforce something that
|> >prohibits the enterance of old f**kups into the national and provincial 
|> >assemblies.  Which infact prohibit herself also. Oh god, give us a break
|> >from these scumb bags.
|> 
|> I'm sure this must have amused some people...

Oh, the grapes are sour...
|> 
|> Who are you to decide who should resign... Pakistan's people have that right.
|> And what do you mean old f**kups (I guess Mansoor Khan got some company).
|> What's so old about Mrs. Bhutto??? Who are you to suggest that she aught
|> to be disqualified from Pakistani politics because her father was a statesman.
|> What utter nonsense. How does that disqualify her... 
|> 

You are really an innocent creature.  There is nothing wrong with the protest
march or any peaceful march but to ask a government to step down is not
good for democracy. They got elected either by rigging polls or by some underhand 
dealing, but the requirment of democracy is that people should give them the promised
time and after that they are accountable to the public.  Things that normally 
happens in Pakistan can shake many governments in west if they go that way.  For
them and may be for you human life doesn't count much but a death of one innocent
percent is enough to disqualify present politicians of Pakistan.  I don't think
its relevant to give names here but majority of them have their hands dirty.
  

|> If you want an end to people's exploitation by landlords, go check the results
|> of 1988 elections. People like Jatoi and Pir Pagaro lost to virtually unknown
|> people... not landlords...

Don't give me this crap.  PPP with the colaboration of other sindh based parties 
won that election on the basis of language.  People of Punjab are not that stupid 
as sindhis have thought. Go and check the variability of national and provincial 
assembly results. In the interior of Sind PPP has used the sindhi slogan and after 
two days Punjab did the same.  Isn't weird that people of sindh worship Pagaro and
the land of Jatoi is more than  his constituency and you are telling me that that 
election was fair and square..there was no dirty game played by the sindhis. 
I hope new/old/premitive/medivial/etc... kind of sindhis will grow up with time.
Nadeem please don't contradict the first two, these are not mine...those names 
were given by ZAB and Mumtaz Ali Bhutto to the people of sindh.

|> 
|> Isn't Nawaz Sharif the one who proudly says that he'll continue the legacy
|> of Gen. Zia. Didn't Nawaz Sharif appoint Zia's son as a Minister to show
|> the same?? Who brought Nawaz Sharif in politics... a Martial Law Administrator
|> who hanged an elected Prime Minister and brutalized the people of Pakistan
|> for eleven years...

Nadeem thats what I am saying, they are all corrupt.  You are trying to justify
that if one is going to jump in a well its right for others too.  Cool down man,
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was not the elected prime minister of the then Pakistan. He
himself got elected by declaring other candidate as traitor.  He was an
undemocraticaly elected prime minister of Pakistan. If Zia was a shithead then 
how well you will define ZAB, Junejo, Nawaz, and BB.  They were/are all murderers of many
innocent Pakistanis.  But the problem is that when people mourn on somebodies
dead body they first check his/her ethnic background.  Whatta shameful nation
Pakistan is.
|> 
|> But then, who am I talking to... Karachiites are the ones who celebrated
|> Bhutto's execution and mourned Zia's death. 
|> 

Now I must praise your brilliance.  What a leap of intellect? Comeout of this
mourning, both idiots have recorded their names in history with gold.  Hate
to say that but you are talking artsy fartsy.
 
|> >
|> >Mr. Nadeem has striked on Jamat-e-Islami on this issue but infact he has
|> >some other problems which have to do a lot with freedom of choice and 
|> >freedom of right but not totally with democracy.
|> >
|> 
|> Nadeem [probably not the one referred to above]
            It was directed to Nadeem Malik

Please don't send me an e-mail, i would appreciate if you kindly reply
to my queries with some real facts and figures and don't take it personal
I myself is very prone to mistakes.
*********************************************************************

SOHBAN SHAHID                
Civil Engg. Dept.                (303) 491 7710/8204 (work)
Colorado State University        (303) 224 0397  (home)
Ft. Collins, CO-80523

*********************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan