From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:17:30 GMT

In article <TSOS.63.714410070@uni-duesseldorf.de> TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.025717.2319@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>   [a few kilobytes deleted]

>>                  ... there's bound to be variation and, in a
>>formal-speech sense, error.  To be sure, I wince when my colleague says
>>that in a meeting, too; but I frankly don't care if he says it on the
>>golf course or in the car.

>I've been following this exchange with considerable (or, to be
>frank, considerably diminishing) interest and intended not to add
>my $.02 worth to the confusion. But this last paragraph I quoted
>above seems to be crucial enough - though maybe not at first sight -
>to risk a comment.

>I would not even on a golf course [actually, I haven't been on one
>for years ... but I assume I could imagine self in a public house
>instead] nor in a car [in my Golf, for instance] resort to a
>language that is - in my humble ears - 'wrong' or 'ungrammatical'.

Neither would I.  

On the other hand, what I was *saying* was that the level of irritation
that *hearing* it causes is variable.  I was talking about my
colleague's speech, not mine.

>In a relaxed atmosphere I might
>     -  use colloquial terms,
>     -  be negligent in my pronunciation,
>     -  imitate other people or employ all sorts of strange language
>        constructs just in an attempt to amuse my audience;
>but I would always try to avoid 'errors', regardless of whether I
>address a single person in private or two hundred in a lecture room.

Well, of course!  So do I, and so does my colleague.  Often, however, he
still makes the errors, despite trying not to.  (Actually, I don't know
just how hard he tries.)

>I might well use a non-standard construct informally and avoid it
>in other situations when I feel it is inappropriate. I'll *always*
>avoid it if I feel that it's simply wrong because it (sort of)
>hurts my feeling for the language - and presumably other people's
>as well.

And so do all of us...

>(Needless to say that I don't always succeed.)

Exactly.

>Nor would I be likely to make *more* spelling mistakes in an
>informal letter than in a formal one - except for being facetious.

Sure.

>But if I happen to screw up a sentence or a word in my native
>language, I don't want any descriptive linguist being around
>and adding this bloomer to their (?!) collection of "current usage"
>just because I'm a native speaker and therefore never wrong.

Nor would they do this.  I'm not sure where the idea of linguists as
grinning idiots comes from, but I suspect it has something to do with
never actually observing one at work, or reading the results of their
work.

>(Disclaimer: Not all descriptive linguists would be so naive.)

Better to say: NO linguist would be.  Can you cite one who is?

>Thus I can't follow you in your distinction between
>standard-conforming formal language (which is 'correct' and in
>conformance with the grammar books) and informal language which
>violates the rules and is still correct.

Sigh.  One more time: INFORMAL SPEECH HAS DIFFERENT RULES.

Formal speech and formal writing *also* differ from one another in their
rules.  

There *aren't* any rule violations going on in the cases we're
discussing, except when the wrong dialect is applied, as with "me and
him" in the boardroom (though I've been in boardrooms where that
wouldn't matter, either.)

>A person's style will vary according to the situation and the
>purpose of the communication, but his or her grammar won't vary
>accordingly.

Only in the colloquial sense of "Grammar."  Usage certainly will; and,
come to think of it, grammar *will* vary, because certain tenses are
just not used in informal or colloquial speech, for instance.

>[A suggestion for usenet improvement: Introduce express threads
>for postings containing 150 words or fewer.]

>"Ab morgen wird gearbeitet."

Auf Deutsch sagen viele Leute, z.B., "wegen des" in formellen
Zusammenhaengen, waehlen aber im Alltagsgebrauch oft "dem" anstatt "des,"
nicht wahr?

Roger