HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dflynn@aludra.usc.edu (Daniel Flynn)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Authority on the Church...
Date: 7 Oct 1992 00:44:39 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU> writes:

>I don't understand how a Pope is chosen.  The previous post suggested
>that since the USA gives alot of money, the next pope could be chosen
>from the states.

Only from the standpoint that the American voice carries much weight in the
affairs of Rome.

>Now, I thought the Pope was hand-picked from G.


If we are to go on what comes from Rome, then yes, the Pope is chosen
through God's wisdom which he passes onto the Sacred College of
Cardinals when they make their vote. Actually, from what I have come
to understand, there is much political maneuvering which occurs. Factions
are created to provide voting power to a candidate... It gets really
nasty. Almost as dirty (if not dirtierr) than U.S. politics. Men will be
men, whether a common man or one clocked in Scarlet Cloth. The ambitions
which drive the common man also drive the clergy. Think about it... Power
over 43 million people plus infalible... Who wouldn't be driven to strive
for that position... Politics plays an important role in the on-going 
operations of the church. When the search was on for an Archbishop for
Los Angeles... There were two choice Bishop Thaddeus Shubdsta (sp?) of
Monterey and Roger Cardinal Mahoney who was at that time Bishop of
Stockton. Bishop Shubdsta (whom I had known before he was elevated to
Bishop in 1976, since he was Pastor of St. Paul's Parish where I attended
school) was Polish. In L.A. there is a strong Polish Catholic population.
On the other hand Cardinal Mahoney had strong dealing with the hispanic
workers of Stockton, as well as dealings with leaders of the workers. 
Cesar Chavez comes to mind. Because of the larger hispanic movement in
L.A., it was Mahoney who recieve the Seat. For whatever reasons, the Church
felt that this was politically correct.

Monteray and Bishop Roger Mahoney of S
>						Liz Moreau
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: Where can I find...
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:33:17 GMT

In light of the recent discussion on Vatican II, I thought this
might be a good time to ask this. Does anyone out there know
where I can get a Liber Usualis (in Latin)? I have not been able
to locate one either in any local churches or in used book stores
and garage sales. 

Please send any replies to my email address (unless you think they
will be of general interest). Thanks in advance!

John R.
jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu

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Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30]
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:14:57 EDT
From:         Dick Corrigan <dickc@HPWAMBH.WAL.HP.COM>
Subject:      Re St. Michael

*************************************************
THE VISION OF POPE LEO XIII. The time limit for Satan
*************************************************

  But the time was foretold, and we were forewarned throughout the
centuries. One of the warning came from Jesus, when He allowed His
Vicar, then Pope Leo XIII to overhear a conversation between Him
and the devil.
  The conversation took place in a chapel of the Vatican on
October 13, 1884 (33 years before the famous miracle of the Sun on
the same day at Fatima). After the Pope had finished celebrating
Mass, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there
about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then going
immediately to his office he composed the famous prayer to St. Michael
Archangel that was said after every low Mass all over the world until
Vatican II.
  When asked what happened, he explained that he had suddenly heard
voices - one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed
to come from near the Tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the
following conversation:

	Satan: (boasting to Our Lord)"I can destroy your Church!"
	Jesus: "You can ? Then go ahead and do so."
	Satan: "To do so I need more time and more power."
        Jesus: "How much time? How much power ?"
        Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who
                will give themselves over to my service."
        Jesus: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with
               them what you wish."
   Pope Leo XIII was also given to understand that if the devil had
not accomplished his purpose (to ruin the Church) at the end of the
time limit, he would suffer a most crushing and humiliating defeat.
Futhermore, the forces of good would not be hepless in the face of the
onslaught of Satan and his legions. They too were given a greater
power for good, if only they would use it.

Excerpts from "The End of this Satanic Age"
Two Hearts Books & Publishers
P.O. Box 844
Mountain View, Ca 94042
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:36:49 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: sinead o'connor

Excerpts from catholic: 7-Oct-92 Re: sinead o'connor Sharon
O'Neil@CWIS.UNOMA (3757)

> >I must say that I am impressed with the reaction to her behavior,
> >especially from an audience like SNL.  If someone says something awful
> >about any Protestant minister, they are usually given great applause.
> >But I continue to be amazed at the respect even the godless have for the
> >Pope.  This is somewhat encouraging.

> Why do you assume those in the audience are "godless?"

I wasn't referring specifically to the o'connor incident, but in general
to those people who are not Christians, but seem to respect the Pope,
even though they have no respect for other Christian leaders.  For
example, the media makes fun of nearly all Christian leaders except for
the Pope.

Excerpts from catholic: 7-Oct-92 Re: sinead o'connor Sharon
O'Neil@CWIS.UNOMA (3757)

> >No organization fights harder for human rights, peace, and social change
> >than the Catholic Church.  In my opinion, no organization carries the
> >light of Christ to the world more effectively than the Catholic Church.

> Well, hmmm, I think there are a lot of great Protestant churches who
> do a LOT of work for human rights, peace and social change.  Foremost in
> my mind: the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church, and
> the Disciples of Christ.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that they _don't_ work for
these things, or carry the light of Christ -- many of them are quite
inspirational.  But I think the resources and manpower (and womanpower)
of the Catholic Church allow it to be much more successful and much more
global.  I could be wrong, but . . .

Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin)
Subject: Re: Authority on the Church...
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 11:38:17 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <9210062005.AA05167@pegasus.com> "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:

>    There has been an information explosion, technological explosion,
>and scientific explosion.  We are facing situations, problems and
>questions today that we did not even conceive of 50 years ago.  What
>provision for change based on these deveolpments exists within the
>Church of Rome?

But like the song says, the fundamental things apply. Our problems are
sin, and death: which for us are no different than for the citizens of
Akkad and Ur. The expression changes.

Late in the last century, when missionary work of various kinds to China
was popular in the US, the charter of a Missouri group read: We will raise
China up and up until it is like Kansas City. No doubt an admirable goal.
But even if we were born in 1960, say, in Kansas city, say, I bet we have
more to learn from the Church than to teach it.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 06:53:55 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Not about women priests, it's about changing rules

From: "(Bob von Buelow)" <bobv@SPIKE.JPL.NASA.GOV>
> collison@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (COLLISON,STEVEN) writes:
> >not everyone in the Kingdom of God can be prophets or healers or teachers.
>
> Ah, but they CAN.  They might not be, but they CAN.  The gifts of the Spirit
> are open to all.

Yes, they can , but it is not our choosing, but that of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:9 (?)

"But it is one and the same Spirit who produces these gifts, distributing
them to each as He wills"


and later in 1 Cor 12

Are all prophets, are all apostles ...  rather seek the greater gifts.

The Holy Spirit gives (some of) these gifts (charisms) to everyone
for our own benefit, but more importantly for the building of the Church.
We can be assured by the promises of Scripture that the Holy Spirit
does give each of us a gift, it is up to us in faith to recognize
His blessing and be open to His promptings in its use.


Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Subject: Re: Some questions
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:09:42 GMT

In article <Bw6G3q.Gz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>In article <Bw68xH.FL0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
>>[...]
>   For those of you familiar with me in this list/group, Wayne is
>speaking of the very parish of which I am a member.  Bob and others,
>now maybe you know better where I'm coming from 8-).
>
>>For example, the last Mass we attended:
>
>   If this was 9:30 Sunday, I was there.
>
>>-the penitential rite was omitted
>
>   Actually, I think there actually was a Penitential Rite.  It's just
>that it is so heavily euphemized (i.e. no mention of sin), that it's
>confusing to try to figure out what's going on there.
>
>>-the creed was omitted
>
>   I don't remember the Creed being omitted, at least not at the Mass
>I attended.
>

It was the 11:00 on Sunday. I could have missed a heavily altered
penitential rite but when I noticed that it was apparently missing,
I listened carefully for the creed. It never came.

>>-the gospel reading was an "adaptation" that I can only describe as a
>> skit or caricature; it was done with Christ and the Apostles doing
>> street talk. It was very uncomfortable to me and felt almost like a
>> personal violation. 
>
>   I agree.  I remember thinking that "this should have been done as
>the homily" (if at all).
>
>   Other things that make me very uncomfortable are changing of the
>liturgical text and being told not to kneel during the Eucharistic
>Prayer.

Agreed. I've never felt so uncomfortable in a Catholic church.

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Peer pressure and grape juice
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 06:41:45 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, writes:

> >Except for priests, whom I believe are required to partake of the Blood,
> >which must be consecrated.
>
> Yep, and there are plenty of alcoholic priests (and homosexual ones, but that
> another topic).
>

And worse, but that's yet another topic.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:59:29 GMT

In article <edjans01.718644278@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing) writes to Marty:
>Your weak arguments are made even weaker by your insistance of this
>paragraph.  If you wish to follow the Old Testament God, the God of
>punishment and anger, then do so in your own space and time.  Don't inflict
>it on me or the Church.  We are Catholics and Christians.  This means we
>follow the message of Christ!  This is a message of Love and Forgiveness,
>not of punishments for "direct defiances" and "disobeying."  And if you are
>so up on Church Law, let me ask you this:  Can women be appointed as
>Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist?

   Sounds like heresy to me.  The God of the Old Testament is the same
God of the New Testament, _as it was in the beginning, is now, and
ever shall be_.  God never changes.  And God is trinitarian: the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; not the Father, the Son, the
Holy Spirit, and the late Ogre.

   What about Christ's message of judgment?  Did He not say there
would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?  Did He not also say many
would say "Lord, Lord," but He would say "I do not know you?"  As far
as love is concerned, we can start with love for Christ, by at least
_trying_ to obey Him.

   And as far as forgiveness is concerned, we cannot be forgiven if we
do not acknowledge we have sinned.  What seems to be many people's
idea of forgiveness is to declare that any given sin another commits
is "OK", rather than "What you did was not OK, but you are forgiven."
But when that happens, then there are no more sins.  And when we no
longer have any sins to confess, we cannot be forgiven, because Sacred
Scripture says we are all sinners.

   When the woman taken in adultery was brought to Jesus, He did not
say, "That's OK"; He said, "I do not condemn you.  Go, and SIN NO
MORE."  What do you think would have been the more compassionate thing
to do?

   While we're also on the subject of "extraordinary" ministers of the
Eucharist, when's the last time you saw one who was truly distributing
Communion under the required extraordinary circumstances?  More like
they're a regular thing, not something extraordinary.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Latin nostalgia <as Re. Alter girls ...>
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:51:02 GMT

Pater Ignotus.
>
>Actually Eric comes appreciably closer than Brian to using Latin correctly,
>but still no cigar.  Of course in the body of the posting Brian is the one
>advocating the Latin.
>--
>                                              --- Tim Rolfe
>                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
>                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 11:37:45 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Idolatry --- the Catholic Church is NOT God

A few reminders to some of the more strident people posting to this list:

   1)  The Catholic Church is NOT God; it is possible for God-fearing and
       God-honoring individuals to disagree with miscellaneous church
       documents and customs.  Review what the Catholic doctrine is regarding
       infallibility --- it DOESN'T extend to everything coming out of
       Rome by any stretch of the imagination.

   2)  The Catholic Church HAS changed its position on a number of matters
       (one standard example is whether it is sinful to lend money at
       interest).  It has also changed its position on matters of ritual
       --- please don't elevate liturgical prescriptions to the level of
       scripture.

   3)  The Catholic Church DOES have married priests --- even though the
       norm for the Latin Rite is a celibate clergy.  The Eastern Rite
       Catholics in communion with Rome are every bit as much Catholics
       as Latin Rite Catholics, and Eastern Rite Catholic priests include
       . . . married Catholic priests in communion with Rome.

   4)  Please don't elevate the Latin text for the liturgy to the level
       of scripture.  Again note the existence of different Rites in
       the Catholic Church --- you can be certain that the Divine Liturgy
       celebrated in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church is not using the
       Tridentine Mass, or even the Mass of Paul VI.

   5)  The translations/paraphrases we're using in America were approved
       by Rome, I'm pretty sure.  So how is one being unfaithful to the
       Catholic Church is using them?  Perhaps Rome has also gone astray?
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:43:32 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Peer pressure and grape juice

>Except for priests, whom I believe are required to partake of the Blood,
>which must be consecrated.

Yep, and there are plenty of alcoholic priests (and homosexual ones, but that's
another topic).

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: palane@iastate.edu (Paul A. Lane)
Subject: Re: Protestants and Catholics (Was: Sinead O'Connor)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:53:50 GMT

In <oneil.718438251@cwis> oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil) writes:
>> respective approaches but the religion for both is Christianity.

>I don't consider Catholicism and Protestantism to be different religions: 
>both are forms of Christian expression.  However, let's admit that 
>Catholics and Protestants have often had a very difficult time sharing 
>space.  (Take North Ireland for an example.  Or Yugoslavia.)

The civil war in Yugoslavia involves Catholics (Croats), Muslims, and 
Orthodox (Serbs), not Protestants. However, given the cosmopolitan nature
of Yugoslavia prior to the breakup, this is not a war about religion or
religious tolerance and freedom. 

Paul
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:47:22 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: sinead o'connor

Eric James Ewanco (ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM) writes:

>I wasn't referring specifically to the o'connor incident, but in general
>to those people who are not Christians, but seem to respect the Pope,
>even though they have no respect for other Christian leaders.  For
>example, the media makes fun of nearly all Christian leaders except for
>the Pope.

That seems to be very true, Eric.  However, there are quite a few "Christian"
leaders - especially televangelists - who've done stupid things that make it
easy to loose respect for them.  The Pope, however, has never done so.  (Nor
would I ever expect it to happen.)

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      RE: Homosexuality
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:55:01 GMT

In article <00962129.61CD0400.21496@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>Len wrote:
>
>
>Every time biblical scholars go back to the original texts they find something
>new.  In fact, much of the interpretation of the original texts is guesswork,
>because the original texts have holes in the material on which they are written.
Brian,
We do not possess any original texts, just older copies of copies.

John

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:57:05 GMT

In article <92285.1329112893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (corrigible) writes:
>I don't know, people were tortured, put on the rack, burnt in boiling oil
>burnt at the stake in the name of Christ and the Pope and you guys get upset
>about a bald woman tearing up John Paul's picture and behave as if it's the
>worst atrocity ever committed in religious history. Get some perspective!
>
>Hey, let's not forget the crusades! Another winner in the Church's quest to
>spread love, peace and human rights throughout the world.

   You really show an utter lack of knowledge on this subject.  From
what movie did you get your information?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Stay or leave....
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:40:06 GMT



The author of "Theology for beginners is Frank SHEED--a great writer.
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: translation
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:39:54 GMT
Organization: Manchester University, England, M13 9PL.

In article <1992Oct16.125108.9683@erenj.com> bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>
>Excuse me?  We can get into the fine points of grammar here and split
>hairs, if you wish, but "Dei verbum est" does not translate to The word
>of the Lord.  Where is the verb "est" translated?  Third person singular
>indicating |It is| or |This is|. 
>
Excuse me? Has this person *been* to a Latin Mass? "Dei verbum est" doesn't
feature all that prominently in the Mass; in fact, I don't think it
'translates to' anything intelligible at all. "Verbum Domini", however,
looks (to me) to be rendered fairly elegantly as "The Word of the Lord".

>Bad grammar is bad grammar, no matter what the language.
Quite so. Gibberish is gibberish, even in Latin. :)

It's all less sinister than has been made out: the original ICEL
translations were just that -- worknmanlike renditions into plain English
that (for the most part) were faithful to the Latin while not trying any
fancy stuff with the English. Now they've finally awoken to the fact that
it's possible to translate a text faithfully, yet still make the finished
product a thing of beauty. What I've read of their forthcoming uh, Missal?,
Lectionary?, looks to have been worth the wait.

Martin Barry.
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