HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:27:18 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: U.S Engineer Topographic Labs, ATD, Ft. Belvoir, VA

In article <1992Jul27.181239.6844@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.164931.142181@cs.cmu.edu> rudis+@cs.cmu.edu (Rujith S DeSilva) writes:
>>
>> Anyway, here's the obligatory anecdote (for the benefit of rec.humor): Some
>> philosopher/theologician, when questioned as to whether he believes in God,
>> replied, [paraphrased] ``Either God exists or He doesn't.  Either I believe in
>> God or I don't.  Of the four possibilities, only one is to my disadvantage.
>> To avoid that possibility, I believe in God.''
>>
>> BTW, could someone tell me who said the above?
>
>Pascal; it's known as Pascal's Wager. Try it again on the assumption that
>if the 19-D Divine Blue Banana exists and you don't believe in It, then It
>will fry you for eternity:
>
># ``Either the 19DDBB exists or It doesn't. Either I believe in the 19DDBB
># or I don't. Of the four possibilities, only one is to my disadvantage. To
># avoid that possibility, I believe in the 19DDBB.''
>
>and lo and behold, one is compelled to believe in *every* putative deity
>which might be pissed off at unbelievers. If every such deity might also
>be pissed off at the takers of False(tm) Gods, then one is in deep fudge.

        Trying to monkey with the odds, I see ?

        I suppose it might drive one to despair if one were to simply assign
arbitrary values to known deities, representing the possibility that such deities
might/might not exist. In this regard, Calvin becomes no more than the bettor who
realizes that he's playing at a loaded table.

        But this really is avoiding the point. If we are to speak of a personal
relationship with God at all, then clearly any relationship is a two-way street,
no matter how unequal the balance of power is. The reason the Congregational Church
descended into Unitarian Universalism was that, in the end, the rational Puritans
decided that they needed to hedge their bets a little. Faced with Pascal's dilemma,
it was either that, or some sort of Gnostic superstition to try to get a handle
on God. In the 20th century, the later trend has kicked in, and the Calvinist
churches are leading the "name it and claim it" branch of the charismatic movement
which, in its less virtuous forms, consists of man trying to evoke God, rather than
man obeying God.


        Bill R.

	"My opinions do not represent those of my employer or any
government agency."

-- 
Bill R.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:13531 sci.skeptic:13450 talk.religion.misc:13099
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: apropos of Gertrude
Summary: philately 
Keywords: describe salmon chicken veal dining potatoes
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:13:53 GMT


"Let us describe how they went.  It was a very windy night
and the road although in excellent condition and extremely
well graded has many turnings and although the curves are 
not sharp the rise is considerable.  It was a very windy 
night and some of the larger vehicles found it more prudent
not to venture.  In consequence some of those who had planned
to go were unable to do so, many others did go and there was
a sacrifice, of what shall we, a sheep, a hen, a cock, a 
village, a ruin, and all that and then that having been
blessed let us bless it."
				--G.S., from "Let Us Describe"

This paragraph appears on commemorative stamps from the country
of Stein: 15 cents each (unit of gertrudes).  The date is 1972.
The stamps are in a block of four with grey borders.

A previous issue of Stein commemoratives came out in 1964, the
fiftieth anniversiary of the date of publication of _Tender_Buttons_.
This issue is a set of five stamps, one in each of the usual
denominations, in 1/100s (cents) of gertrudes.

	Title: Salmon
	Quotation: It was a peculiar bin a bin fond in beside.
	Denomination: 1 c.
	Description: white panel, black letters, salmon borders,
	 with "Tender Buttons" on right-hand border

	Title: Chicken
	Quotation: Alas a dirty word
		   Alas a dirty third
		   Alas a dirty third
		   Alas a dirty bird
	Denomination: 2 c.
	Description: white panel, black letters, bird-buff borders,
	 with "Tender Buttons" on right-hand border

	Title: Veal
	Quotation: Very well very well washing is old, washing is
		   washing cold soup cold soup clean and particular
		   and a principal a principal question to put into.
	Denomination: 15 c.
	Description: white panel, black letters, beef-blood borders,
	 with "Tender Buttons" on right-hand border

	Title: Dining
	Quotation: Dining is west.
	Denomination: 30 c.
	Description: white panel, black letters, sky-blue borders,
	 with "Tender Buttons" on right-hand border
	
	Title: Potatoes
	Quotation: Real potatoes cut in between
	Denomination: 1 g. (gertrude)
	Description: white panel, black letters, potato-tan borders,
	 with "Tender Buttons" on right-hand border

The reference I have, which describes the stamps of Stein and and also
those of many other countries, is out of date, so I don't have current
price listings.   

							--Fiona
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Last Lines / Knowing the ending
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:55:08 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Jul23.135515.12725@random.ccs.northeastern.edu> kalkin@ccs.northeastern.edu (Daniel J Sullivan) writes:
>
>>  "He loved Big Brother."
>
>  Does knowing  the plot ending ruin the novel....

Well, "He loved Big Brother" is the last sentence in the book, but not
necessarily the ending, plotwise that is.

>  I had this very same debate back as a junior in high school with a close
>  friend.  We had an english teacher with the habit of discussing upcoming
>  plot events in novels before we were assigned to read certain sections.

That would tend to ruin the suspense of wondering what is going to
happen next, but in a classroom setting I don't know. I certainly
wouldn't tell anyone what was going to happen before she read that
part of the book.

>  I was a firm believer that it really didn't matter if the ending of the
>  novel was known before hand.  So to prove my point I picked up his copy
>  of 1984 and read the last couple of sentences.
>
>                   "... He loved Big Brother."
>          
>  The look that came over my friends face was awful.  He never finished  
>  the book and still blames me to this day ( a good 10 years later).  Every
>  so often in social gatherings he brings up this story to haunt me.
>

Almost everytime I start to read a new book, I open up the back and
read the very last sentence. Not because I'm intersted in knowing the
ending ahead of time (that will unwind as the pages turn), but as a
writer I'm interested in knowing what will happen to the narrative.
Reading the last sentence does not constitute knowing the end of the
story. I've certainly never come closer to knowing the end of book
simply by reading the last sentence.




-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Unspoken Words
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:21:00 GMT

Barbara Hlavin writes:

	As for the question of pronunciation, I have found dictionaries 
	to be helpful. 

Aw shucks, Baba, don't ruin the fun. In any case, who ever understood
the hieroglyphics that indicate pronunciation? So please step out from
your miasmatic gloom and get ready to party, since this is the First Notice
of the First Annual Classic Memorial West Coast Rabbinical Potluck Supper
and Bookfest, currently being organized by our own Susan Gere. Da da! So,
no more of that infectious or noxious exhalation from putrescent organic 
matter, and let the games commence.

							Fido
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: Re: Great last sentences
Keywords: fiction endings
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:50:18 GMT

In article <l+bm!6.troach@netcom.com> troach@netcom.com (Tom Roach) writes:
>If you ever read a science fiction story called Farewell to the Master,
>then you know the feeling you get (stunned) by a powerful last sentence.
>
>I would like to know other reader's opinions on the most memorable
>last sentences in books, short stories, or whatever they've read.
>


The last sentence of Orwell's 1984 had that effect on me.  Those four 
little words really stunned me.

Also, the last sentence of Keyes' _Flowers for Algernon_ had me in tears.



Regards,

rafem
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:04:45 GMT

In article <sbuckley.712399013@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
}James Meritt writes:
}>Stephen Buckley writes:
}>}seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
}>}
}>}>	Well, perhaps I'm unusual, but I put myself in the agnostic camp. I
}>}>say that at the moment the evidence I see would weigh more towards the 
}>}>conclusion that there is no "God", but any contrary evidence is welcome.
}>}
}>}  have you thought about what kind of evidence you would need to believe 
}>}that god does exist?  if so, what do you require?
}
}>Can you precisely define what "god" you are talking about?  It is rather
}>difficult to provide evidence for and tests to validate an ambigious
}>concept.
}
}  i am talking about god of the bible whose fundamental characteristics
}[found in the bible] are that he created the universe and us, that he will
}sometime end time and history as we know it, that he is all good, holy so 
}he cannot co-exist with sin, just so he must punish sin, and all loving so
}he sent his son to redeem us and pay the price for our sin so we may 
}return to be with him.  this is the christian god of the bible.
}
}  does this help?

Well, that would serve as a lead in for the hypothesis testing.  If something
in the reference you gave (for instance, the KJV) were to be contrary to
the description from the same reference, standard predicate logic methods for
proofs would indicate that the initial hypothesis (that THIS god exists)
would be false.  And since such contradictions appear to exist, the conclusion
that THAT specific god exists does not follow.

Or if you prefer a more direct, define (in a non-circular manner) what "good",
"holy", "sin", and "loving" mean then see if your stated reference indicates
if the postulated entity (Yahweh) fits the description.  In my opinion, it
dies not.  I find activity which, if performed by humans, is described as
"Evil", "unholy", "sinful" and "not loving" being performed by the diety
described (mostly in the OT).  Unfortunately for your apparent position, the
NT claims the same diety as the OT (in spite of rather massive differences
in activity and stated positions).

To test if it exists, simply define objective characteristics by which it
might be uniquely identified and observe them.  Neither I nor many others
have observed any such thing, hence the hypothesis that it exists cannot be
unambigiously confirmed.

So here are three methods.  Two indicate that Yahweh does not, as described,
exist and the third has (to the best of my knowledge) failed to demonstrate
that it does.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Hey, Mikhail, where ya goin' with that gun in you
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:46:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.024634.14306@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:

>The only honorable choice
>open to me is to wither the unworthy sod with deadly ridicule.  You may
>expect Mike Godwin to drop dead from my witty barbs within the next fifty
>years.

It's actually the frequency of the unwitty barbs that has me worried
about my health. I'm not so worried about the witty ones.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a law-
mnemonic@eff.org | breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every
(617) 864-0665   | man to become a law unto himself. It invites anarchy."
EFF, Cambridge   |         --Brandeis, J., dissenting in Olmstead v. U.S.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: harper@oracorp.com (Douglas Harper)
Subject: Re: Great last sentences
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 02:33:38 GMT

In article <l+bm!6.troach@netcom.com> troach@netcom.com (Tom Roach) writes:
.....
>I would like to know other reader's opinions on the most memorable
>last sentences in books, short stories, or whatever they've read.

If Chandler had left the final paragraph out of _The Big Sleep_, the
ending would have had a body-slammer of a last sentence, IMHO.  True,
there would have been one helluva big loose end left, but isn't life
often like that?

I wish I could lay my hands on my copy of Kipling's _The Light That
Failed_.  (When will I learn not to lend books?)  I was very moved by
the ending, but can't recall after these ten years or so whether the
last line had the hard punch.

For bittersweetness, I've never seen anything to compare with the last
sentence of Tolkien's _Lord of the Rings_.

Is there any ending sentence that leaves you feeling bleaker than
the ending of Hemingway's _A Farewell to Arms_?

-- 
Douglas Harper     | ORA Corporation | 301A Dates Drive | Ithaca, NY 14850 
harper@oracorp.com | (607) 277-2020  | FAX: 277-3206    | USA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,alt.religion.kibology
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: help please, when did Isaac Asimov die?
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:26:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.074656.21277@ccu.umanitoba.ca>,
thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton) writes:
>
|>In <3ppxykn@rpi.edu> kasprj@jacob.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:
|>
|>> Isaac Asimov is not dead. I saw him eating hot dogs with Elvis
|>Presley and 
|>>Kibo at a diner in Schenectady, NY.
|>
|>Jesus, have some respect. It's not "dead," it's metabolically
|>challenged. Get with the program.

The Azimov death myth has been about since the seventies. Azimov himself
debunked it in his book of collected short stories:

"Many of my readers assume that I am dead and are quite surprised to
find me still alive. Nevertheless this is indeed the case."


Need I say more?

Phill
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jfl@world.std.com (John Lovett)
Subject: Wizard Of OZ
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:07:35 GMT

I heard Milton Friedman on a talk show today, saying that
'The Wizard Of Oz' is really an advocacy of William Jennings Bryan's
policy of a dual monetary standard, using both Silver and Gold.

So, for example, 'OZ' stands for ounces.

Can someone deconstruct the book, giving us the real story?  It would
make the movie a lot more fun to watch.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.philosophy.misc
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan Yigit)
Subject: Re: Sincerity is Bullshit
Organization: York U. Student Information Systems Project
	<1992Jul24.023146.14116@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<92Jul25.021431edt.47919@neat.cs.toronto.edu>
	<1992Jul25.153934.14165@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:00:42 GMT

Zeleny, a cleric from the distant past who appearently made it to
the twentieth century due to a time warp, writes: [in response to
Calvin B. Ostrum]:

   [various zelenyana elided]

   CBO:
   >This reminds me muchly of the last time Mikhail used a similar phrase,
   >in the "Rock implements all FSAs" thread, where someone finally had to 
   >post enough of the text to show that it was in fact Mikhail who was
   >being unfaithful to the text.

   How nice for you to be endowed with such powers of voluntary recollection!
   (Here, have some Hydergine.)  Yet observe that even if you managed to
   demonstrate that I am indeed being "unfaithful to the text", there would
   remain a much larger issue of being faithful to the truth; and as you will
   undoubtedly recall, it is my opponents in the Putnam thread who failed to
   refute my extension of his argument to arbitrary finite state automata, for
   want of a coherent notion of implementation.

   [etc]

For those interested, said articles regarding Putnam's "Rocks" and
Zeleny's discussion thereof may be found in the comp.ai.philosophy
newsgroup archives.

The complete archives of comp.ai.philosophy starting from late oct 91
are now available for anonymous ftp from nexus.yorku.ca [130.63.9.66]
under pub/c.a.p, and recently updated for the months feb/mar/apr.

total 5768
-rw-rw-r--  1 oz       13             87 Feb 28 17:33 README
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13         461963 May 13 15:32 apr.92.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13         979121 Feb 21 16:06 dec.91.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13        1138282 May 13 15:32 feb.92.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13        1287861 Feb 21 16:06 jan.92.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13        1102027 May 13 15:33 mar.92.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13         841332 Feb 21 16:06 nov.91.tar.Z
-rw-r--r--  1 oz       13          22849 Feb 21 16:06 oct.91.tar.Z

each tar file for a specific month contains a directory of individual
articles posted within that month, as received by our main news host.
[filenames are numbered in article reception order, which may/may not
correspond to the posting order.]

enjoy...        oz
---
ps: as an internetworking courtesy, please try to avoid ftp transfers
    during peak working hours, i.e. 9.00am-5:00pm EST.
---
postings are long, life is short.    |    internet: oz@nexus.yorku.ca
                    -- anonymous     |    phone: 416 736 2100 x 33976
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers)
Subject: Re: Mao II by Don DeLillo
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:57:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.162837.13887@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, emzx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu wrote:
>Just finished Don DeLillo's "Mao II" - and I must say I'm sort of disappointed.
> This is the first DeLillo I read, and although he is a good writer, he's very
>slow and painstaking, describing, circumscribing, never really getting to the
>point.

If you think that's bad, you should try White Noise. great Book, pity nothing
happens.

Your description coul dbe applied to most of his books, but some of them are
more plot driven. Great Jones Street has an interesting detective story.
-- 
Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,##EveryoneHasTheRightToFreedomOfOpinionAndExpressio
TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>##nThisRightIncludesFreedomToHoldOpinionsWithoutInt
###############################erferenceAndToSeekReceiveAndImpartInformationAndI
deasThroughAnyMediaAndRegardlessOfFrontiers...#10 UN Declaration of Human Rights
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Spoilers - continuing discussion, part 2
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:31:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.165152.26088@leland.Stanford.EDU> gere@umunhum.stanford.edu (Susan Gere) writes:

<re THE FRENCH LIEUTENANT'S WOMAN>

> On further thought it may have been not so much the form of narrative 
>used as other factors which led to my reaction. For one, the Virgin/Whore 
>thing leaves me quite cold.

Which Virgin/Whore thing was that? Are you suggesting that this is how
Fowles sees women? Even at my most uncharitable, I'd have to disagree with
you.

> And I was horrified at the time by a history
>graduate student I knew whose (I judged) dysfunctional romantic notions
>so enamored her of the book that she wanted to incorporate it into the
>seminar she was teaching (totally inappropriately in the case, IMHO).

The book is, in many ways, a history lesson. I don't suppose it's possible
that your graduate-student acquaintance, whatever her romantic
dysfunctions were, could have had legitimate reasons for wanting to use
the book as a text?



--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Of the many definitions of poetry, the   
mnemonic@eff.org | simplest is still the best: 'memorable speech.'" 
(617) 864-0665   | 
EFF, Cambridge   |                     --W.H. Auden 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Subject: Re: Isolation
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:01:59 GMT

Oops, I spelled Barbara Hlavin's name wrong.  Apologies.


Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull)
Subject: Re: Job and melodrama
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:25:19 GMT


I am in a play right now, Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It
All For You, which contains the following (I think _illuminating_)
dialogue on Job:

Sister Mary: You have obviously never read the Book of Job.
My character: I have read it.  And I think it's a nasty story.
Sister M: God explains to us in that story why he lets us suffer, and
		a very lovely explanation it is, too.  He explains
		to us that he tests us so that when we choose to
		love him no matter what he does to us, that proves
		how great and deep our love for him is.
My character: That sounds like The Story of O.


Just wanted to pass those thoughts along.  Bonus anecdote: my
grandfather, a Mormon actor (!), wrote his dissertation in theater
on the Book of Job--turned it into a radio play, in fact. When the
radio play was recorded, he asked his only son, my father, an atheist,   
to read the part of--can you guess?--Satan, of course.

My father, who hates acting, was sufficiently amused to agree.

Kate


-- 
- - - - - - - -
kate@cactus.org
Be the voice of night and Florida in my ear.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Ahasuerus
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:55:59 GMT

Meg Worley writes:

	While reading _Busman's Honeymoon_, I too wondered about the 
	name Ahasuerus.  _Harper's Bible Dictionary_, kept for just 
	such occasions, informed me that there was another Ahasuerus 
	as well, in the Book of Daniel (obviously not Doctorow's), who 
	was the son of Darius the Mede.  No doubt DLS was on intimate 
	terms with him as well.

Actually, I doubt it. Miss Sayers' High Church psoition would have made
her as familiar with the Old Testament as any Roman Catholic in that time
and place, which means not at all. I can be wrong, and often am, so it
would be useful if someone described the character of the two biblical
Ahasueri (?) so that we might judge for ourselves which might be more
appropriate for Honoria Lucasta's lap-cat who was sufficiently jealous
of Harriet Vane when kissed by the Dowager Duchess that she buried her
claws in our heroine's legs.

						Fido