HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Newsgroups: misc.legal,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech according to Nilges
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:03:21 GMT
Reply-To: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technologies, Mt. View, California.

In article <1992Oct2.002640.17160@panix.com>, gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
writes:
|> In article <183703@pyramid.pyramid.com> pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com
(Paul Collacchi) writes:
|> | In article <1992Oct1.042909.9477@panix.com>, gcf@panix.com (Gordon
|> | Fitch) writes:
|> | |> egnilges@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edward G. Nilges):
|> | |> | ...
|> | |> | There is an astonishing amount of dysfunction and codependency on
|> | |> | the net, and the average poster appears to be a male from a 
|> | |> | household with a strong female and a weak or absent father.  This 
|> | |> | is because of household with a the prelevance of divorce in the 
|> | |> | era of many posters' childhoods (1960-1980) and the fact that 
|> | |> | even before 1960 "organization man" fathers were excluded from 
|> | |> | meaningful family participation.  Since boys, especially,
|>
|> Attribution to me should have been removed since my brilliant
|> comments were....
|> 

Sorry.  I'm still coming up to speed on the mechanics of posting.

|> | ...
|> | As far as "dysfunction" and "codependency".  They are the rage these
|> | days (pun intended :).  The words have become so fashionable that they
|> | have become meaningless.  
|> 
|> I don't think they're meaningless, I think they're totalitarian.
|> 

Expand on this.  I don't understand what you're getting at.  Do you mean
"totalitarian" in the sense the Mr. Nilges simply asserts them without
substantiating the claim, or do you feel that the terms have a connotation
which is totalitarian?  In what way "totalitarian?"

|> | ... 
|> | I would agree that the average net poster comes from a relatively
|> | homogenous subset of the population -- not too many homelesss persons
|> | posting these days, Or women.
|> 
|> I read a news story somewhere describing how a library
|> had installed terminals enabling access to a bulletin-board
|> system somewhere.  Free, for as long as you wanted; it was
|> some kind of experiment.  They ran into a problem: homeless
|> people came in the library and spent all day on the terminals
|> conversing with each other and non-homeless users.  
|> 
|> They were _getting_a_life_.
|> 

A neat story.  Think of how enriching this is, for "us" homeful people.
Interesting that it was seen as being a "problem."  Public libraries are,
after all, "public." It should be possible to limit access without
discriminating. 

Paul Collacchi


Newsgroups: misc.legal,alt.politics.correct,soc.college
From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Subject: Re: the MIT anti-trust case
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 06:50:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Oct2.163140.18023@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:

>In article <1992Oct2.035543.24614@panix.com> lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
>>In <1992Sep30.053708.13964@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
>>>The charitable aspects of the Red Cross would not be subject to
>>>the Sherman Act.  If they were to collude with the Red Crescent or
>>>something to price-fix the price of blood, that would be subject to
>>>the Sherman Act.  
>>
>>So if the Red Cross has a policy of not permitting hospitals to resell
>>their blood products to the highest bidder, they are in violation of
>>the Sherman Act?

>Why would you think that?

As I understand it, attempts by manufacturers to fix the prices set by
retailers is a *per se* anti-trust violation.


>When American Airlines has a policy of not permitting customers to resell
>their discount airline tickets to the highest bidder, are they in
>violation of the Sherman Act?

No, because an airline ticket is a executory contract,  you're free to
sell the airline ticket to anyone you want, but American Airlines is
not obliged to honor it.

Blood is a commodity, whose price is fixed by the monopolistic Red
Cross.

If there was a free market in blood, those who were best able to pay
for it would get it before those who had less money.  This would be
more competitive than the current system, where all patients are
guaranteed equal access by the Red Cross' ability to use it monopoly
power to restrict after-market sales.

I can't see any distinction between the Ivy League forming a cartel to
prevent competitive bidding for college scholarships, and the Red
Cross existing as a cartel to prevent competitive bidding for blood
products.  Can you?



-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner

Xref: sparky misc.legal:17913 alt.politics.correct:5572 soc.college:4041 sci.econ:7895
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell)
Newsgroups: misc.legal,alt.politics.correct,soc.college,sci.econ
Subject: Re: the MIT anti-trust case
Date: 1 Oct 92 05:05:28 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Sep30.235431.2507@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>Ford, GM, and Chrysler together manufacture a very high percentage of
>the cars sold in the US.  The overlap group together provide a very
>low percentage of the college educations in the US.

"College educations" is not the relevant market.  Prestige education
was the relevant sub-market.  That's why the Overlap Group invited
Stanford to join and not Upper Podunk U.

>I strongly disagree.  I'd bet that if Princeton turned free (say, some
>billionaire offered to pay everybody's tuition for 4 years), Harvard's
>price would stay the same.

They would notice a difference though.  I don't think Harvard would
stand still to that sort of pressure -- look at the pressure they
applied on Princeton when Princeton started offering $1,000 undergraduate
research fellowships.  Harvard's actions historically give lie to
this. 

>>The Overlap Group was a way to keep its members from breaking ranks.
>
>No, it controlled the amount of aid offered, not the tuition charged.

This is incorrect.  The Overlap group's spring meetings arranged for
decisions on how much 'parental contribution' was expected for each
individual student.  Except for upper-income and upper-middle-income
students who were expected to pay everything, including the minimal
differences in tuition, any student would be faced with the exact
same price regardless of which Overlap member he or she went to.
These decisions were made in minutes, often without regard to
the individual circumstances of the students in question -- it
was more important to the Overlap members that everyone agree on
what to charge than whether what they were charging was fair to
the student in question.  Thus, one financial aid mistake would
be multiplied across nearly every top college in the country.
-- 
           .. . . .  .  .   .    .     .     .    .   .  .  . . . ..
          ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers
         the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: misc.legal
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Jury Nullification -- The Power is a Right
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 00:27:39 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.184621.6085@clipper.ingr.com> ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date) writes:

>>I said nothing about moral grounds.
>
>So on what grounds do you suspect that juries decide to acquit people
>in spite of the law and the facts?  Extraterrestrial intervention?

I have already answered this question, as any careful reader would know.
But for you I'll reword it simply: there is a difference between making a
moral decision and claiming a moral right to make that decision. The 
latter process is far more self-conscious than the former.

>>>  In fact, 
>>>nullification is usually accompanied by a moral conviction or
>>>revelation that it would be
>>>more unjust to uphold the law and to convict, than to nullify and acquit.
>>
>>I do not think you can support this statement.
>
>I think it is the case almost by definition. 

Do you talk to juries often?

>>>Nullifying juries are usually, if not unanimously driven by conscience.
>>
>>What is your source for this statistic?
>
>Knowledge of history.

Please be more specific about the source of your knowledge of consciences
of jurors.

>>How can you speak of the mental states of the jurors in "all the famous
>>cases of nullification"?
>>
>In some cases, they asked them.  In Redwood City, 11 of the 12 felt that
>there was a "higher purpose" than to uphold the law, when human life was
>at stake (as it is with HIV).   In historical cases, such as the famous
>trial of William Penn, the conclusion that the jurors
>acted out of conscience is almost unmistakable.  

This seems to be a fairly small sample from which to generalize to "all
the famous cases of nullification."

>>What I was saying here was that I don't think the jury claims a "moral
>>right to nullify." Again, I've never heard a juror refer to any such
>>thing.
>
>It is implicit in their actions, if not their words.

You confuse your inference with their implication.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"Liberty resides in the rights of that person
mnemonic@eff.org| whose views you find most odious."
(617) 864-0665  | 
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --John Stuart Mill
Xref: sparky misc.legal:18116 rec.arts.books:17682 alt.censorship:7869
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell)
Newsgroups: misc.legal,rec.arts.books,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net?
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:41:07 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Followup-To: rec.arts.books,alt.censorship
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Followups out of misc.legal:

In article <1992Oct5.084324.17183@news.vanderbilt.edu> MANEJWZA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu () writes:
>
>I have read All of the messages posted on this subject. So I am well aware
>of much of the discussion.
>
>	Now, I ask, why go to such an extent?  
>
>	Art and literature are basically means by which someone expresses
>his or her views regarding anything.  

Here's where you're wrong.  

>	Many Muslims have read The Satanic Verses and have discovered that
>it insults the Prophet's family calling his beloved wife a prostitute and
>himself a harrasser. Astaghfirullah Anaouzubillah!!!!!!!!! 

No, it doesn't.  In the book, an insane man has a dream that includes
some of the things you mention.  Which is much different than actually
making the claim or saying that this is what Rushdie believes.  Next issue.
-- 
ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu 
also at quibeaux@uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
ajax crypto-analyzer -- warning! remove all chicken bones first
Newsgroups: misc.legal,misc.consumers
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: need advice for simple will
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:06:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.230242.10114@u.washington.edu> tzs@milton.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>I've seen it claimed that a safety deposit box is *NOT* a good place for
>a will, because when you die, it is very hard for your survivors to get
>into the box for the will.  Even if the box is jointly owned (rented?
>whatever...), I've been told that when any of the owners dies, the box
>is sealed, even from the other owners, until a court orders that it be
>opened.

If the box has been sealed, it is relatively simple to get an order
to search the box for, and remove, a will.  It still involves
petitioning the probate court, but should be faster than an order to
inventory and remove all contents.

Many lawyers will recommend having only one signed copy of a will.
I am not a lawyer, but believe it's a pretty good idea to make
several signed and witnessed copies.  In effect each is an original.
One can go in a safe deposit box, one stored with your lawyer, one
at home, one with a favorite relative, ...  I'm sure the lawyers
will explain why this is bad, but it sure solves a lot of problems
if the one original gets misplaced.


-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Apostilled: what it means, explained
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:11:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Sep27.141104.18390
Distribution: usa
Organization: Northeastern Law, Class of '93


In article <66666@cup.portal.com>, ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) said:
            ^^^^^
(Wow! Five of a kind -- bet the farm! :-)

> It doesn't appear in my Sixth Edition Black's.  I think mine is
> unabridged (it doesn't say abridged, and it is larger than the ones
> that do say abridged).  However, it is only about the size of a
> casebook, so I don't understant why it would cause a hernia.  Is
> there some extra-unabridged edition, or is WDS just a wimp? :-)

Okay, so I exaggerated a little.  True, Black's unabridged (5th or 6th
edition) isn't quite the Oxford English Dictionary, but I _did_ once,
during my first year, strain something in my left shoulder lifting it.
The moral of the story is that if you're sitting at a table in a law
library with the shelves containing the copies of Blacks immediately
behind you, do _not_ indulge your laziness by just reaching back and
trying to do a straight-arm, arm's-length, one-handed grab-and-lift of
the damn thing unless your one of those people you see in boot camp
photos standing there holding buckets of sand out at arm's length
while a friendly and sympathetic drill instructor coaches them on
their technique... :-)

-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: misc.legal,alt.politics.correct
From: mgflax@flower.Princeton.EDU (Marshall G. Flax)
Subject: Re: Once more into the breach, dear friends (was: Re: Ted babbles again
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 22:38:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.235326.25825@Princeton.EDU> egnilges@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edward G. Nilges) writes:
>In article <1992Sep25.212356.5867@island.COM> guido@island.COM (Guido Marx) writes:
>>Ed, in article <1992Sep21.011441.5377@Princeton.EDU> you posted:
>>>Marshall, fart in a bottle and paint it, will you?
>>
>>Now, can you tell me how that kind of a statement "constitutes healthy
>>dialogue" ?  You have lectured us on how people don't post to the
>>net because they are afraid of being flamed.  You then assert that
>>because of this, somehow their free speech rights are being violated.
>>
>Guido:
>
>
>     (1)  Strictly speaking, that was a request, not ridicule.  It did
>          not hold Marshall's thoughts or feelings up to scorn, but
>          requested that he perform an unnatural act.

Ed, your sophistry grows tedious.  You lost your temper and your cool.
It would be more mature if you would just admit it.

>     (2)  The context was Marshall's absurd statement that I had acted
>          badly in refraining from telling Keith Ware, who proposes
>          to be the first black man to climb Everest, that Everest
>          was overburdened according to a recent article in the
>          Economist.  

Or perhaps it was the fact that my criticism of your paternalism cut
slightly too close to the bone.

>          Marshall's recommendations were so far from what
>          I consider to be simple civility (racial considerations
>          apart) that I felt that rational persuasion would not work
>          and unnatural acts were in order.

Then would it not be more appropriate for _you_ to have "fart[ed] in the
bottle"?

>     (3)  There is a world of difference between a humorous request
>          and the humorless bile that passes for "flaming" on the net.

And, as in the question of "what deserves to be censored", it's Ed
Nilges who gets to decide what's what.  Yeah, right.

marshall
-- 
=========== 5 Joyce Lane, Woodbury, NY 11797, 516-364-9331,9379 ===========
============ PGP 2.0 Public Key available by finger or request ============
===== c/o Jack Gelfand,Psych Dept,Princeton U.,NJ 08544,609-258-2930 ======
= Original material(c) 1992, Marshall Flax <mgflax@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> =
Xref: sparky misc.legal:17730 alt.politics.correct:5492 soc.college:3970
From: egnilges@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edward G. Nilges)
Newsgroups: misc.legal,alt.politics.correct,soc.college
Subject: Re: the MIT anti-trust case
Date: 26 Sep 92 23:45:21 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <9331@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>In <1992Sep25.150012.6455@Princeton.EDU> egnilges@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edward G. Nilges) writes:
>
>EN:And
>EN:if it's universities today, it's unions tomorrow.
>
>We can only hope.

Oh, that'll be great.  Powerless consumers and employees: a few giant,
debt-burdened, monopolistic corporations.  I kin hardly wait.
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:11:08 GMT
Subject: Roe v. Wade for Men!
Organization: HP Western Response Center
Newsgroups: misc.legal

The National Center For Men is preparing to litigate the equivalent of Roe V. 
Wade for *men's reproductive rights*. Below are excerpts of a letter written by 
Joe Appelbaum, the litigation chairman for the National Center For Men.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Begin Excerpts <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Fighting For Fairness and Equal Rights
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                       Post Office Box 317
                                                       Brooklyn, New York 11240
                                                       Telephone (718) 845-2010

	We are attempting to overturn very sexist laws which deny men the
right to decline fatherhood in this age of "reproductive freedom" for women.

	A man's life, future and wallet are currently in the hands of his 
female partner if she gets pregnant and decides to have the child contrary
to his wishes. He is denied any say in the matter. He is not allowed to say, 
"I do not choose to be a father and I don't want to be held financially
responsible for this child." We are going to petition the federal courts to
permit a man, prior to fetal viability, to go into a family court and 
relinquish rights and responsibilities to the unborn child. We want a legal
"right to choose," too.

	Our attorney, Robert Smith, has agreed to take this case "pro bono,"
but we still have to cover his expenses. I, myself, have pledged $200 for
this case (I was a paternity suit victim). If you have been, too, there is
no need for me to emphasize the importance of this lawsuit. If you haven't
been (yet), try to imagine a deceptive and uncaring woman taking you to 
court to force you to support a child, when you were never given a choice.
The financial consequences alone could total over $100,000 for twenty-one
years or more.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><> End Excerpts <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

We can use this filing as an opportunity to raise America's consciousness 
about men's lack of reproductive rights. We would like to maximize media 
interest by simultaneously petitioning the federal courts in other districts 
nationwide. If you would like to join us, you can

	1.) Distribute this letter far and wide.

	2.) Help find an attorney in your area who will file papers in federal 
	    court.
From: "hilary miller" <hilary.miller@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: computerized will pro
Date: 25 Sep 92 16:41:36 EST
Reply-To: "hilary miller" <hilary.miller@execnet.com>
Distribution: misc
Organization: Executive Networks Information


Steve Rosen, in a message to All on 09-23-92 at 2:46pm, said:

SR>|I am looking at purchasing a computerized will creation program.  Of co
   |these programs are legal (according to the ads) - aren't they?  Can peo
   |give me their general impressions of these programs?  Seems like a grea
   |way to keep updated and track assets - I don't know much about wills ot
   |than the fact that I have enough assets that I would be stupid not to h
   |one (a will).
   |_______________________________________________________________________

               This question comes up fairly often, and it is
               fair to say that many people are capable of pre-
               paring and executing simple wills using such a
               program that will be perfectly valid and will car-
               ry out their wishes completely.

               On the other hand, a layman has no way of knowing
               the meaning and legal consequences of various
               terms of art, formalities of execution, state and
               Federal estate taxation, etc.  I can usually bill
               a lot more hours to a case which involves trying
               to undo a pro se testator's errors than to a nor-
               mal probate matter.  It costs only a few hundred
               dollars to have a will prepared by a professional. 
               If he screws up, he's got malpractice insurance
               from which your heirs can recover.  If *you* screw
               up, who's going to indemnify them?


   L A
 I    R        Hilary B. Miller of Greenwich, Connecticut
  H/\Y         CIS: 76040,1743
    
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #11645  As easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Re: Car Insurance: No Comprehensive => NO THEFT INSURANCE!!!
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 21:31:00 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Sep26.213219.25482@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>

On my Farmer's policy, there is no separate line item for theft.  An
examination of the explanation for each item ("collision," "comprehensive,"
etc.) shows that theft is under comprehensive.  Hence, it is obvious that
dropping comprehensive would drop theft coverage.  It took less than two
minutes to ascertain this from my policy.

It would be a good idea for people who are considering dropping some of
their insurance to read the policy to see what they are dropping!

--Tim Smith
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Subject: Looking for a Copyright/Patent Attorney in the Silicon Valley Area
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:43:09 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

I have a friend who has invented and patented a product(not computer related).
He is currently in the first stages of negotiating the sale of the rights
to the product to a large company.

He is in need of a recommendation for a good patent/copyright attorney to
help him draw up a contract for the sale of the aforementioned rights.

If anyone out there in netland could recommend such an attorney in the
South Bay of Northern California it would be greatly appreciated.

As I do not regularily read this newsgroup, please send me e-mail at:

	bruce.hildenbrand@eng.sun.com

Thanks in advance,

Bruce Hildenbrand
(415)336-7052
Newsgroups: misc.legal