HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande)
Subject: Re: About V}rt land (song)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:07:42 GMT

In article <1g95b5INN8he@uwm.edu> pkokkone@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Pellervo Kokkonen) writes:
>> Fredrik (or Friedrich) Pacius...
>>gained finnish citizenship - by the time he composed "Maamme laulu"
>>(1848) he had already lived ...
>
> Finnish citizenship? Are you serious? He may or may not have got Russian
> citizenship.

 Of course I am serious. Although Finland was a part of the Russian empire,
it was an autonomy - quite like todays Aaland, only even more so. There was
a separate finnish citizenship. Russians didn't have same rights in Finland
as did the citizens of Finland.
--
Antti Lahelma   |	      mtf@saha.hut.fi 	           |   GNOTHI SEAUTON 
Lehtotie 3     -O-	      stel@purkki.apu.fi          -*-  ====== ======= 
00630 HELSINKI  | <<Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> |    TUNNE ITSESI   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Sibbo/Sipoo revisited
Summary: Swedish still first despite Fennophone majority
Keywords: Sibbo Sipoo Swedish Finnish bilingual official language spam
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:08:29 GMT

Last Spring there was some discussion here about officially bilingual towns,
and the case of Sibbo/Sipoo in Finland (officially Swedish/Finnish, 
population 50/50) came up. At the time, I mentioned the national Local 
Government Official Language For The Next Ten Years Census was going on, 
and promised to post the results as soon as any were to be had.

Yesterday 17 December 1992 the Finnish Cabinet determined the official
languages to be used by local authorities in 1 Jan 1993 - 31 Dec 2002.
The communes of Malax(Maalahti), V{stanfj{rd and Ini| will be Swedish/Finnish
instead of Swedish-only. All others, no change.

The decision was based on census figures of 31 Dec 1991. The statistics for
Sibbo/Sipoo are rather interesting:

Language:		Swedish	Finnish
31 Dec 1991	r	7410	7369
30 Nov 1992		7375	7511
change in 11 months	 -35	+136

This means that Sibbo/Sipoo has a Fennophone majority, and in fact did have
last November as well. But as it's the 31 Dec figures that count, last December
saw a sudden increase in the number of Suecophone residents. I guess these
symbolic things like which language goes first on a street sign are pretty
important, especially if you're a minority. Even more if you're a minority
that used to be a majority. It's not long ago that Sibbo was completely
Suecophone.

(Facts from: Helsingin Sanomat, 18 Dec 1992)

Share and enjoy,
tsahib.
		




-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Subject: Re: How Finns look at their neighbours
Organization: Ericsson
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:02:09 GMT

hmj@cs.tut.fi (J{rvinen Hannu-Matti) writes:
>without it Finland could have been occupied. Neutral Sweden was very
                                              ^^^^^^
    Sweden was not neutral during the Winter War, she declared herself
    non-belligerent, in order to help Finland as much as possible
    without going to war.

>important to Finland during the war. For instance, if Sweden were at
>war with USSR, it is quite likely that Finland could not have made
>separate peace with USSR and avoid occupation.

     Mats Winberg
     Stockholm,Sweden
>-----
>Hannu-Matti Jarvinen, hmj@cs.tut.fi
>Opinions of tut != opinions of mine, and vice versa.
>TTKK on samaa mielt{ kanssani siit{, ett{ en edusta sen mielipidett{.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang)
Subject: Ta deg en aspirin (Was: Skjaerp daakk, rankoerva (was: I *resent*..))
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim, Norway
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:39:03

>>>>> In article <92349.1013412971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, <2971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

> Well, the dialect may not change when you leave Mo in the Rana, but
> mentality certainly does.

> No matter WHAT direction you're headed!

Ah... cue me,... is this some kind of weak and pitiful attempt at an
insult from someone who is not willing to sign his articles with his
full name.

"gh on behalf of many..."?

"The heart of Nordland", my ass... Where are you from anyways? You too
afraid to get your beloved home insulted or just ashamed??? Ah,...
that's it, ain't it??

You just got to be from, (snicker!)... Beiarn...! :-) :-) :-)

- Steinar
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:27:35 EST
From: <2971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Apologies..

Point of clarification: I did not intend to insult anyone with any of my
postings.  My sincere apologies to anyone who feels that was NOT the case..
However, I did hope to "set off a few reactions".  -Appears I was quite
successful..
                         Merry Christmas to all,

                         gp
From: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Want to learn to read
Date: 13 Dec 92 22:03:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thunderball Cave BBS - Oslo, Norway  (47 2) 56 70 18
Reply-To: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)

TO>It is ussually not called 'high Norwegian', but I think most people
TO>in Norway will agree that the Norwegian that is spoken in Bergen, the
TO>previous capital of Norway, is regarded as a superior form of Norwegian.
TO>It sounds better, and is also linguistically a lot more coherent than
TO>Norwegian spoken elsewhere in Norway.

Total bullshit. People from Bergen are Germans in disguise. Their
language is more like pidgin :-)
Seriously: The dialect in Bergen is gramatically weird and socially
unacceptable to anyone else. :-))
But *seriously*: I think you have to learn one ofthe two standards,
bokmaal and nynorsk. And there is little, if anything, written about
nynorsk for foreigners. I think your best bet will be the books "Norsk
for utlendinger" (Norwegian for foreigners). These are aimed at adult
immigrants.

Kjetil

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Norway - home of nisser, troll, hulder og draug.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang)
Subject: I *resent* that shitty remark...(Was: Want to learn to read and...)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim, Norway
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:02:05

>>>>> In article <92347.0436332971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, 2971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA writes:

> ...The best way to learn is to go over and practise.  The real
> Vikings are found north of "Saltfjellet" (Salt-Mountain).  That's
> also where you find real culture, humor, and super-friendly people.
> They know how to have a good time up there; and if you don't,
> they'll show ya'..

I was born just south of Saltfjellet and I *resent* shitty
incinuations like this. They are an insult to my "nordlending-hood".

My father was born on Vry in the Lofoten archipelago, my mother is
from one of the Rana valleys. I got relatives spread over practically
every fjord-hole in Nordland and Troms. I have lived for 9 years in
Finnmark (Kautokeino & Bjrnevatn/Kirkenes).

It's *not* like I feel I have anything to prove,...:-)

However, here goes:
 o The dialect doesn't change at Saltfjellet
 o The people doesn't change at Saltfjellet.
 o The "fylke" (administrative district) doesn't change at
   Saltfjellet (the border, which is also the semi-official border
   between Nord-Norge and the rest of Norway, goes some 200km south).
 o This bleeding line that nobody cared about 'till we got foreing
   tourists running around with cameras (the Arctic Circle) cuts
   through the northern part of the "kommune" (municipality) were I
   was born (Rana Kommune).
 o The temper and the swearing doesn't stop at Saltfjellet...:-)

When "sringa" here in Trondheim remarks (in a totally misunderstood
attempt to be nice) that "Mo i Rana is not all that far", I basically
feel like punching them but most of the time end up explaining to them
in a deceptively silky voice that it is approx. 500km from Trondheim
to Mo which is about the same distance from Oslo to Trondheim.

That it is still a far way to drive from Mo to Nordkapp is completely
irrelevant. Never been to Nordkapp myself BTW, damn tourist trap if
you ask me...

S kom *faen* ikkje her ss prv me nkka snn hlsikes dritprat!!!! 

Chip on my shulder? Me??? Nah,... make that a boulder! :-) :-)

- Steinar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bhso@fou.tr.statoil.no (Bjorn Halvor Solberg)
Subject: Re: Want to learn to read and speak Norwegian. Recommendations?
Reply-To: bhso@fou.tr.statoil.no
Organization: Statoil R&D, Trondheim
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:00:03 GMT

In article <92347.0436332971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>,
2971047@QUCDN.QueensU.CA writes:
>                                   See ya' where the sun never sets,

He-he... if you were thinking about your "nordland" then at this time you
should rather say:

	"See ya' where the sun never rises,"
or during the season it actually rise:
	"See ya' where the sun never shines,"

>                                   100% prime time "NORDLENDING"

Bjorn.  (some here, some there :-)
From: walvdrk_r@research.ptt.nl (Kees van der Wal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Speed skating (Norway - Netherlands)
Date: 20 Dec 92 16:20:19 GMT
Organization: PTT Research, The Netherlands

In article <1992Dec17.200854.12573@nevada.edu>, messiah@nevada.edu (mw) writes:

> In article <1992Dec17.110251.10058@alf.uib.no> fredrikm@ii.uib.no (Fredrik
> Manne) writes: 
> 
>>Are there any dutch speakers out there who would like to comment on the
>>speed skating contest against Norway this weekend?

>> [Pseudo-flame deleted]

> I'm only kiddin with my psuedo-negative feedback, but I wouldn't mind
> being kept posted on the stats. Be nice about it though otherwise I'll
> just check out the action at rec.skating and you won't have anybody
> payin ya lip service no more :-)

I understood that Zandstra was more than 10s behind Koss; not bad when skating 
on clogs ;-)

However, the total in points shows NL of few points ahead of N so there's facts 
to conclude that Koss and the NL-team did win the contest.

Regards, <kees>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Taxonomics: Nordic, Baltic, etc
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:50:25 GMT

The (seemingly) eternal question of whether X is a Y'ic country/language/
whatever has again arisen in the context of the proposed Baltic conference.  
As in previous (and numerous) discussions on this topic, terms have been 
tossed around without any attempt to define what theie meaning might be - 
or, indeed, if they are meaningful at all.

A basic principle of taxonomy ought to be that the taxonomic terms pertain 
to the topic to which they are applied.  That should be self-evident; 
imagine a physicist classifying yttrium and ytterbium as Swedish elements!  
That may be true in the sense that both were first found in Ytterby, Sweden, 
but that is irrelevant to physics.

So what do 'Nordic' and 'Baltic" mean?  It certainly doesn't make any sense 
to me to call Finnish a Nordic language - Nordic is not a linguistic 
category!  If Nordic is a geographic or geo-political category, does it make 
sense to classify languages in such terms?  Try applying geographic/geo-
political categories to English!  (A world language?!)

So is Estonia a Nordic country?  Is Germany a Baltic country?  There can't 
be any meaningful attempts to answer these questions unless we first define 
out terms.  And that might not be easy.  What do you mean by Estonia?  A 
particular piece of land?  A culture?  And what criteria would one apply to 
determine if someting is Nordic or not?

Personally, I despair at finding answers to these questions;  all the 
categories are meaningless, in any objective sense, I'm afraid.  That would 
mean that we should simply define by fiat:  by Baltic we mean X, Y, and Z, 
but not W, etc.

Comments?
From: asterios@emke.chalmers.se (Asterios Kastoris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Sma grodorna
Date: 14 Dec 92 07:42:52 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


Help please !


Friday the 11 of December i wrote a little merry song about the little
frogs.   I didn+t realize what a national disaster would split the nation
in two.
Half the nation seems to want the ears first and half the nation wants to
have tails first (Judging from my E-mail). This is a very hard blow to the
traditional celebration of Christmas. What would it be if half the people
sang on song and the other half another. I think we have to go " to the
bottom " with this. Does anyone know the original version of the song,
please come forward and  save the nation.


Asterios the Mean
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: cml0464@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung)
Subject: suicidal rate in nordic countries
Originator: cml0464@ultb
Reply-To: cml0464@ultb.rit.edu ()
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:05:43 GMT

Nobody get offended here.  This is not intended for flames.
I am not too sure if this title is very sensitive to someone here

I have been reading some material published in the 60's
The book claims that suicidal rate ran high in Sweden and Danmark but not
so in Norway.

Can someone give some insights in this statistic?

I repeat:  No intention of flames.  Purely for sake of hearing the opinions
of people from a different culture on their own.


Regards
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: suicidal rate in nordic countries
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:01:44 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <1992Dec15.180543.18655@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cml0464@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung) writes:

>I have been reading some material published in the 60's
>The book claims that suicidal rate ran high in Sweden and Danmark but not
>so in Norway.

>Can someone give some insights in this statistic?

I read that book when it was fairly new. I heard an explanation then that the
chief reason for the differences was that at that time in Norway the cause 
of death could be determined by other people than medical doctors (certain
local police, I think). The laws were different in Sweden and Denmark. This 
might have lead to under-reporting of suicides in Norway. 

Another weak point was how the chief material was brought together, i.e. 
interviews with people who had tried to commit suicide. These people were 
not selected at random but taken from the registers of psychiatric clinics. 
Since mental care was organized differently in the 3 countries one would get 
different bias in this material. Severe alcoholics, who as a group are more 
suicide-prone than the normal population, may therefore be underrepresented 
in the Swedish/Danish material. This point concerns the purported reason for
the differences, not the differences themselves.

I do not deny that there are likely to be differences between the three
Scandinavian countries just as there are differences in alcohol and drug
addiction (the latter had hardly started in the 1960's), and other cultural
differences as well.

I saw some figures on the present suicide rates some time ago. I don't 
remember them, but they did not show the tendencies from the 1960's
referred to.

Rolf Manne

e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
From: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: suicidal rate in nordic c
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:29:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thunderball Cave BBS - Oslo, Norway  (47 2) 56 70 18
Reply-To: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)

CL>The book claims that suicidal rate ran high in Sweden and Danmark but not
CL>so in Norway.

CL>Can someone give some insights in this statistic?

The suicidal rate in Norway is rapidly rising, especially amongst
young and very old men, but I think it is still significantly lower than
our neighbours'. I also think the rate is still very low in the rural
parts of western Norway. I will try to get you the figures for Norway.
If you are going to make a serious study of this compare the figures
from different parts of Norway with different nordic countries. I
suspect that you will find similarities between the western part of
Norway and the Faroe Islands/Iceland, and between eastern Norway and the
other nordic countries.

Kjetil

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Norway - home of nisser, troll, hulder og draug.
From: Per_Salmi@augs.se (Per Salmi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Hur funkar AMaxII ???
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:58:32 GMT
Organization: Amiga User Group - Sweden
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]



--
***************************************************************************
* Per Salmi, phone: +46-13-172267                  * Computer Science &   *
* snail-mail: Bjkg 15B:12, 58251 Linkoping, Sweden * Engineering, LiTH    *
* e-mail: salmi@augs.se or d89persa@und.ida.liu.se *                      *
***************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: alex@julia.math.ucla.edu (Alex Langley)
Subject: Re: Traditional Swedish Christmas song
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:10:09 GMT

In article <asterios-111292091126@g0-mac2.ekti.chalmers.se> asterios@emke.chalmers.se (Asterios Kastoris) writes:
> [..]
>Tjing a ling !
>
>A was moved to tears when a saw the pretty interpretation of that lovely
>christmas song written by one of my dear collegues.
>I am now forced to write in one of my own.
>Her goes nothing:
>
>The little frogs, the little frogs, are funny to see.
>The little frogs, the little frogs, are funny to see.
>No ears, no ears, nor tails have they.
>No ears, no ears, nor tails have they.
>
>Quackaka,Quackaka,Quackakaka kaa.
>Quackaka,Quackaka,Quackakaka kaa.
>
>
>Sing this song while you try to look like a frog.
>When you sing about the ears you put your hands to your head and wave them
>ridiciously. When you sing about the tails you do the same thing but now
>your hands is down by your bottom.
>When you sing "Quackaka", you have to resemble a frog, trying also to get
>in to the mental beeing of the frog.
>This is done for several times and every one has a lot of fun. If this is
>due to the song or the amount of glogg being drunk, I+m not the man to
>answer. 
>
>P.S. We have a little dissagrement my friends and I, about which is sung
>first, the ears or the tails. Anyone out there on the net who knows send me
>some E-mail with an answer D.S
>
>Asterios the Mean (Santa is a fake)

I've always wondered what Sma gradorna (The Little Frogs) had to do with 
Christmas.  Could someone please explain this?

Tackar.


Alex Langley
alex@math.ucla.edu
UCLA Mathnet, 6221 MSA, 405 Hilgard, Los Angeles, CA  90024-1555, (310)825-2897
Opinions are my own, and do not represent those of the University of California.
From: tonypaso@polaris.utu.fi (Tony Matti Juhani Paso)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dementia spreading in Social Democratic Party
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:00:31 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Finland

mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande) writes


> I don't doubt that. But when Jarmo says that someone is an "upperclass
>*finlandswede*", he means that the person in question belongs to the caste
>of stupendously rich, land-owning, mercedes-bentz-driving swedish-speaking
>bastards, who have "never done any real work" etc. that he so much hates.
>What he utterly fails to understand, is that 99.9% of the finlandswedes of

Did you draw that figure out of the hat or do you have data to back it up?
And relatively speaking, which do you think are more numerous (per capita)
the finnish or swedish upperclass? There certainly is a difference. What
do you think is the reason for the difference?
 
>this country don't belong to this caste.

> And, yes, the background of a politician *does* make a difference. A person
>who was born to poor conditions will probably have a different view on poli-
>tics from that of someone born to a rich family. At least in theory.

I'd put heavy stress on your last sentence. We all know beautiful (and not
so beautiful) THEORIES about which social class should political leaders
come from. Do you really think that finnish politicians have mentionable
differences in BEHAVIOUR (as the opposite of rhetoric). Just think of
SMP in the seventies and Pekka Vennamo today. I'm not saying that he came
from a poor background, but his party was (in it's own view) "the voice of
the forgotten people". Today's P.V. has certainly forgotten his old
rhetoric.  Of course that is only one example, but I don't think it's a
isolated case. You can certainly provide the net with counter examples
(I can't think of any offhand) of politicians who are so grateful to get
elected that never forget their background, if you care to. Still, anybody
would be able to outnumber those cases.  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Subject: Re: Want to learn to read
Organization: University of Bergen
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:04:49 GMT

In article <Dec15.031840.77359@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> sastoen@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Susan Stoen) writes:

>There is an excellent series by Gerd Manne.  The first set (text and
>work book) is called 'Ny i Norge'.  I can't remember the name of
>the second set right now.  

I second this suggestion since I happen to be married to the author.
The second set is called 'Bo i Norge'. There are tapes and computer
exercises for IBM PC compatibles to both books. 

Don't worry about dialects. The important thing is to get an opportunity
of hearing authentic Norwegian of any kind. Whichever regional variant
you learn, Norwegians will hear that you are a foreigner. 

Rolf Manne

e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: lchoqu%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette)
Subject: Re: Traditional Swedish Christmas song
Date: 11 Dec 92 12:45:07 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <asterios-111292091126@g0-mac2.ekti.chalmers.se>
asterios@emke.chalmers.se (Asterios Kastoris) writes:
 > P.S. We have a little dissagrement my friends and I, about which is sung
 > first, the ears or the tails. Anyone out there on the net who knows send me
 > some E-mail with an answer D.S

You have it in the right order:  ears then tails.  But don't forget the next
verse, about the pigs:

The little pigs, the little pigs, are funny to see.
The little pigs, the little pigs, are funny to see.
Both ears, both ears and tails have they.
Both ears, both ears and tails have they.

Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf, Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf, Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf-nuf-nuf.
Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf, Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf, Nu-nuf-nuf-nuf-nuf-nuf.

I once heard on the radio on Midsummer Eve a version with mosquitoes:
No hearts, no hearts, no hearts have they.

Here's a cheerful song:

Hey, Christmas elves, strike your glasses together and let's be merry!
Hey, Christmas elves, strike your glasses together and let's be merry!
A short time we live here with a lot of pain and much worry.
Hey, Christmas elves, strike your glasses together and let's be merry!

-----

Now it's Christmas again.
Now it's Christmas again.
Said the lady as she lay under the train.

Oops, wrong version.  Anyone ever sing this?  (jul = hjul)
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . Lee Choquette . . . . . . . . . .The early worm . . . . . . . . .
  . . . .lchoqu@cs.utah.edu . . . . . . . . . gets eaten. . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic