From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: NO MORE ILLEGAL WORKERS, PLEASE!!!
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:29:54 GMT

Josef WIDJAJA (s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan18.224645.651@wsuhub.uc.twsu.edu> ckcheng@wsuhub.uc.twsu.edu writes:
: |In article <1993Jan16.034403.28512@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, othman@ntrc25.ntrc.ntu.ac.sg (othman (EEE/Div 4)) writes:

: |> Look what happend to Indonesia and Uganda when they kicked out the chinese.
: |> The economy may suffer but did the natives suffer? The natives gain at least
: |> more benefits. The capital of Uganda look beautiful even without the chinese.
: |> Are you saying the Indonesians now are less prosperous than when there were
: |> more chinese.

: Uganda has gone backwards since. If you measure economic development by
: how beautiful a nation's capital looks, consider the case of Ivory Coast.
: The president (read dictator) is building the biggest Catholic Church 
: in the world, heaps bigger than St.Peter's Bassillica. Yet it is still
Just one church does not make the capital beautiful.
	Kampala is beautiful and clean overall, not just one or two buildings.
They are well organised despite what I was led to believe.
	Why don't you watch the program on the African pop star who got aids?
They showed a lot of scenes on Uganda, the pop star even mention that 
Kampala is the most beautiful city in the World, and it is hard for me to
agree.

: a poor country, a huge proportion of its citizens are still living in
: poverty.
What are you trying to get here? Do you think they are poor because there
are no chinese there?

: Indonesia did not kick out all the Chinese, there are still quite a lot

How many did they kick out? Was it 50%? How come I heard stories that a lot
of shops were closed?
: of them left behind. And they are now the driving force behind  Indonesia's
: economic development. The Chinese in Indonesia have contributed a lot to 
Has Indonesia ever developed even when there were more chinese? What was the
effect of the forced migration of the chinese?
`	Are you saying there were no effect at all?

: the economic development; and in the sporting arena, have a closer look
: at Badminton, the most popular sport in the country, most of Indonesia's
: top players, past and present,  are of Chinese descent.
Some of the top players were also kicked out and in fact the top Chinese players
were formerly Indonesians.
	maybe if they were not kicked out , the locals like Icuk Sugiarto
will not be allowed to shine. You seem to neglect the contribution of the
locals.

:  
: |> You should have read the indonesian thread. The chinese there have destroyed
: |> the Indonesian enviroments and even livelihoods of the natives, all in the
: |> name of development. In fact the natives have become the slaves of the chinese.

: Listen, sir. On the subject of the environment, your Prime Minister, 
: Dr. Mahathir, always criticizes the West for objecting to rainforest
: logging in Malaysia. He argues that it is imperative that Malaysia be 
: allowed to use up her natural resources for economic advancement of her
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are a lot of differences between economic development and the 
destruction of the environment. In Malaysia water catchment areas are taboo,
but in Indonesia, even if the Island were to sink, destroying the homes of
hundreds of thousands of people, they still allow it.

: people. There is no doubt that the Chinese and native malaysians benefit
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you sure of that? Do you think getting $1 is sufficient when the chinese
get $1000.

: from this, yet you will support your PM and at the same time accuse the
: Chinese of destroying the environment. Shame on you, shame!

: I read the indonesian thread always, but I could not recall any posting on
	Either you do not read all, or you close your mind to it.
: chinese damaging the environments in Indonesia and enslaving the natives.
	The author in typical Malay fashion do not say it directly, but who
is the "richest man in the world"?

: If you want to use the master and slave analogy to support your baseless
: claims, think about this: In America, the African slaves were forced to 
: to adopt European names. Nowadays, most (99%) Black Americans have European
: names. Nowadays, most Chinese Indonesian have Indonesian names. See which 
I thought Lim Swee King is a chinese name, and yet he is Indonesian. Are you
forced or just "encouraged" to change your names.
	Are the African Americans still slaves when they have changed their
names?  
: one is the slave?
Tell me, do you think to work for someone with US$10 per month is not a slave?
Even slaves are allowed some expenses for their food.

: Your statement that 'the natives have become the slaves of the chinese'
: needs to be supported by facts which you undoubtedly can not provide.
What more facts than to quote their salaries? Do you know how much they
are paid in Malaysia?

: You are quite content with distributing your hate message not unlike the
Who started these hate messages? Worse still they tell lies.

THEY DO NOT REALISE THE SACRIFICES MADE BY THE NATIVES.

: KKK that I long admire (for their manipulative campaigns aimed at people

What is this KKK? 
: with less than average intelligence). The world would be truly better 
I monitor your postings. If it were of this nature I will respond.
But if it were so absurd, then I do not because people know immediately
who you are.

Here you are attempting to twist facts and arguments that may lead the less
intelligent, not well read, non-indonesians,  astray. 
: without people like you.
I wonder if the world will be better if there are people who think that paying
people at extremely low wages is not slavery whereas "forced" to change 
names is.
	How many people are willing to "change their names" just to get more
money? Why don't you ask the natives which ones they want?

Do you want me to quote who they are? Just study the pop and film stars.

:  
: Enough said.


--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean