From: mhmann@nyx.cs.du.edu (Me Mann)
Subject: Re: racial harmony, not a dream...
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 03:25:21 GMT

Obviously the question of racial harmony is of paramount
importance to the people of Malaysia, especially those Chinese
who are born there and hence are not on their own choosing
to be there.  I guess every (the majority) Chinese or for
that matter Indian need to realise that they have been
there only very recently. The Malays though are immigrants
too, have been there longer and hence their claim to being
"bumiputras".  Furthermore, most of the Chinese and
Indians immigrated there when the British ruled the region
and needed "coolies". When the British shipped out the
Chinese leaders at the time agreed that in returned for
their being granted citizenships, they will help the
Malays better themselves and that the Malays be accorded
special privileges. The NEP is just, IMHO, of a way the
Malay exercise their special privilege. Hence
discrimination or if you like double standard is ingrained
in the constitution.


In article <1992Oct16.182927.3721@memstvx1.memst.edu> ustai@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:
>In article <10792759.6.719207410@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au>, 10792759@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (YEW YAP) writes:
>>>> What can I say? execpt that you are TOO naive. ignrant & simple
>>>> minded
>        Simple minded, and that is not an insult?  Yeah, right.  You obviously
>feel very strongly about this.  Why do you say racial harmony is a dream?

I have to agree with YAP YEW that the previous poster was a little 
naive and simple minded. Racial harmony in Malaysia is far from 
being achieved. The missing element is really trust and not tolerance.
In the area of tolerance there is still a lot of room for improvement.


>> I think that Meng Teng's comments are more justified. From history, there is
>> no such thing as racial harmony. Human history had been a struggle between 
>
>	Do realise that from history, there's no <insert PC stuff/good
>feelings stuff> anything, because things change.  What we want is change for

True, things changes but since the days of the Babels, there had been 
no real racial harmony. That's why you have the wars and tensions
in the world, the latter kept at bay only via greater tolerance and 
not racial harmony as there is still distrust among humankind.

>the better.  Right now it may be bad, but it certainly improved from 1963,
>didn't it?  And if you want a historical view of racial harmony, look at the
>babas and nyonyas.

Remember that it took a turn for the worst in 1969 and a few years
back  (not too long ago really) Malaysia was on the verge of another
racial conflict.  I still have the BBC report and commentary in one
of my tapes in storage.

>
>> different races to achieve domination over others. We have now come to a 
>
>	Same thing can be said of individuals.  Don't we call it a rat race? 
>So does this mean we are all shitty people?  Probably so, but again, we can
>think, and can change for the better.
>

There is a fundamental difference here. As an individual each and
everyone of us are vulnerable but as a group it is a different 
story.. you can have mob behaviour. You would do things that you as an 
individual would probably  not  do or is capable of doing.

>> stage where various races are forced by circumstances to co-exist together, 
>> as the situation is in Malaysia. That does not mean that they can live 
>
>	No, not forced by cirumstances.  Each of the 3 major races found their
>own way there, basically because they wanted to be there.  No guns were pointed
>at their heads.  In fact, many of the early chinese immigrants had to pay thru
>their nose to go to that place "down there".  And currently, I believe a person
>can leave the place if he/she doesn't like it there...

Well, I would have to agree with Yap Yew. Refer to my opening 
paragraph of this post.  

>> truly in harmony. The just tolerate each other because they know the 
>> consequences if they don't (riots). This division is further aggravated by 
>
>	No, they know the consequences if they don't ($$$).  No matter what
>happens, the bottom line always matters...

And most of the  Malaysian Chinese have no other place to go.

>
>> the multitudes of cultures and religions. As long as these factors exists, 
>> different races will never live in true harmony with each other. Note that 
>

>	No, I for one, believe that diversity is good.  If everything is
>homogenous, it will be such a boring world.  And imagine, no members of the
>opposite sex to talk to.  Wouldn't that be a dreary world?

Do the proponents of a harmonious Malaysia think that
diversity is good?  What about the talk of one language
etc?  THey have always argued that the Chinese have not
assimilated. Guess they prefer a melting pot to diversity.
No one, the least those of Chinese origin and are born in
Malaysia would oppose a harmonious Malaysia but it is the
way that this harmony is achieve that is the more relevant
question.  They will have to always remember that it is
written in the constitution that you do not have some
privileges the other have by virtue of your race.


>> As I observe the situation now, most Chinese in Malaysia still separate 
>								 ^^^^^^^^
>> themselves culturally from the Malays. Most find the very thought of mixed 
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	Of course.  Two different cultures.  However we are learning about each
>other more and more (could be just govt propaganda tho)
>
>> marriages with Malays repugnant, especially if they must convert to Islam.
>                        ^^^^^^^^^
>	Sorry, have to disagree with you here...  Many of my chinese friends
>have found (quick, name me that pretty 8pm news anchor for TV3 <- that girl :))
>to be, ahem, quite attractive...


Finding them attractive is one thing and marrying one of them is another.
Are you prepared to be call Abdullah? Are yuo prepare to have your
foreskin remove? Guess love is blind 8). 

>	I myself have found many malay girls to be beautiful.  However, I don't
>believe in th Quran yet, so I don't think I will be marrying any one of
>them.... (four wives tho... decisions, decisions... :) :))

You see the point.  You loss the freedom to embrace your religion and
to continue at least with most of your custom and practices.

>
>> There is no basis to claim racial harmony is an achievable goal in the near 
>> future in Malaysia.
>
>	And what platform are you coming from?  From a historical context,
>racial relationships seem to be improving, especially in view of the fact that
>there has been no riots in the past 20 or so years.

No riot does not mean that racial relationship has improved.
For all you know there may be a dormant explosive
situation.  

>
>> A realistic guy,
>
>	A realistic guy will see the good points as well as the bad points. 
>And to paraphrase the author of "Swimming with the Sharks without being eaten
>Alive" '... calls themselves pessimists...  they prefer the term realists'.

On the contrary a realist can be a pessimist or optimist.. just someone
who is more pragmatic maybe 8).

I would say have more trust in each other, involve each
other in decision making and have greater tolerance to the
differences, a harmonious Malaysia will be  in the horizon.



-Mann