HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:32 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

##slkdh@cc.usu.edu writes:
##
###	I have a friend who wants a Desert Eagle Action Express (.50 cal) for
###the same reason.  He figures that if he shoots it once the size of the gun and
###the sound of it fireing will scare any assailant into humble, penitent
###submission.

Out of curiousity, just how many of you have actually set off a
round in your domicile? I have, and it is a _VERY_ disorienting
experience. I made a slight mistake (which, thanks to the drilling
of gun safety by my dad, required only tar to fix), and set a
round off in my SIG P226 a few months back. After a few seconds of
trying to figure out what the hell happened, where the hell I was,
and what the hell that ringing in my ears was, I noticed, to my great
shock, a cocked and loaded weapon in my right hand. (OK, well, it was
really only a few moments, but in a state of mind suddenly thrown from 
complacency into panic, it seemed a lot longer.)
This was, of course, and unexpected event (I'm not about to try it
on purpose, unless someone wants to break into my home and give me
a really good excuse), so the effects may be somewhat biased, but
I don't think your average burglar expects you to fire either.
(From accounts of friends who have shot intruders, there is also 
a momentary psychological shock, even from experienced shooters.)

Maybe you can write this off as "anecdotal experience," but, IMHO,
"Yes, Virginia, there really is a psychological impact of firing
a weapon indoors."
;-)

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
I'm worried..that of all the [Presidential] candidates, one will win.
			--Mark Russell

[MODERATOR:  True... ditto on firing in low light conditions.  If you
shoot a 9mm and get off one round, placed in low light with your Trijicon 
sights, then one wonders how to get off the second aimed shot after your
eyes have lots dark adjustment due to the big fireball in front of your
muzzle .... Try it, you may switch back to flashlight techniques like I
did.]
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Unique questions
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:25 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Anmar Caves (amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: 
............STUFF DELETED................
: Unique, and threw a few to settle the powder.  Then I threw one and
: weighed it.  It came out about 6.5 gr!  Thinking there might have been
: an error, I threw a few more and measured them.  They all came out
: about 6.5 gr +- .05gr.  So I moved the measure disk up to .88 cc.
: This brought the weight up to 7.1 gr.  I then moved it up to .95cc.
: This brought the weight up to 7.7 gr. which I ended up loading.
: 
: Anyone have any idea why the disparity between what the data said it
: should weigh, and what I got?
: 

CYA syndrom on Lee's part.  It is much safer to err in this manner.
I use volumetric measuring device tables only as a starting point.  I then
weigh the charge and adust the volume as needed.  I have NEVER had a table
supplied by the manufacturer be correct or wrong in the "throws more than
they say" direction.

-Scot
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the most frightening sound
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:06:00 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA


	Based upon my vast experience with owning black powder
weapons, the most frightening sound is:

	<click>

It not only means the shot didn't go off, but that it *might*.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: richard@mais.hydro.qc.ca (Richard Patenaude)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Update RE:What handgun to buy?
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:48 GMT
Organization: Hydro-Quebec (DSB)

Hi all,

        It's me again. I'd like to thank everyone who replied to my recent
        post on what handgun to buy. Since then I've talked to some guys
        at the range and here is what they had to say (BTW it's quite
        similar to what most of you people told me):


                1. Start with a revolver (I was told they were more 
                                          accurate)
                2. Get a .357 magnum/.38 special.
                3. Use the .38 special for target shooting and the
                   .357 magnum for defense and/or silhouette.
                4. I was advised to buy a S&W 586/686.

        What do you all think about the above? Does it make sense? Should I
        still disregard semi-autos (some of you didn't think so)?

        
					thanx again,

						Richard Patenaude
						richard@tdsb-s.mais.hydro.qc.ca

PS. (to Dana) - I don't know what are the handgun self-defense laws in Canada
                but I will try to find out and will get back to you on that.
From: sr2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Malcolm Redmore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:30:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Af0s2o200WB6RoAqJv

Hi there!

I just wanted to voice my support for the continuing moderation of this
newsgroup.

Even though I have only been reading it for a year or so, it is one
of the few that doesn't make me wanna get off my butt and switch to a
news-reader that uses a kill-file.

As for the moderator putting in comments, I feel that he is remarkably
restrained.  Also, _he_ is the one putting in the work, putting in a
comment here and there is no more than a perk.  One that many would abuse.

--Seth
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Finding the polar moment of inertia
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:45:35 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

Ever the glutton for punishment 8-), I'm responding to an off-net 
query as to how I measured the polar moment of inertia of my Gold
Gold Cup about its center of gravity.  I've started with standard 
formulae which should be in your physics book, rearranged them and 
combined them.  So if you will, take a look in your physics book 
for that which precedes the formulae below.

I found the polar moment of inertia by measuring the frequency of 
the gun's oscillation about a point which is a known distance from 
the c.g.  (I stuck a knife edge inside the trigger guard.)  I found 
the location of the c.g. in the usual way: I suspended the gun 
from two points and drew vertical lines through those points onto 
the gun.  The intersection of the two lines locates the c.g.
(Suspending a gun on a knife edge, drawing lines on a gun;  is
nothing sacred?!)

Inputs:

"acceleration" of gravity = 386.1 inch/sec^2
mass of half-full gun: 40.62 ounces = .00658 lb-sec^2/inch
distance from pivot point to c.g: 1.50 inch
frequency of oscillation: 60 cycles/48.0 seconds = 7.85 rad/sec


Symbols:

g = "acceleration" of gravity
m = mass of gun
i = polar moment of inertia about pivot point
p = polar moment of inertia about c.g.
r = distance from pivot point to c.g.
q = distance from pivot point to center of percussion
w = frequency of oscillation  (using w for the standard omega)


Standard formulae:

w = (g/q)^0.5            Note that q is not only the distance from the pivot
from which:              point to the center of percussion; it is also the
q = g/w^2        (1)     length of an equivalent simple pendulum.

q = i/(mr)
from which:
i = mrq          (2)

i = p + mr^2
from which:
p = i - mr^2     (3)

 
Calculations:

To reduce to one formula, plug (1) into (2) and (2) into (3):

p = mrg/(w^2) - m(r^2) = mr((g/(w^2))-r)
  = (.00658)(1.5)((386.1/(7.85^2))-1.5) = .047 lb-inch-sec^2


Extremely rough check:

p = (m/12)(a^2+b^2)   (also in your physics text)

where a and b are the length and width of some rectangle which 
approximates the firearm in some way.  I guessed a 3x8 inch
rectangle.

p = (.00658/12)(3^2+8^2) = .04 lb-inch-sec^2

So we're in the ball park.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: les@ulysses.att.com (Leslie Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mailorder Bookstore
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:57:35 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill


#From time to time I've recommended this place to people, so I thought
it was about time for a review and shameless plug for:

  Rutgers Book Center
  127 Raritan Avenue
  Highland Park, NJ 08904
  908-545-4344

Rutgers Book Center (no connection with Rutgers University) is a large
mail order bookstore that is entirely oriented toward gun collecting,
gunsmithing, shooting, hunting, Western Americana, military, etc.
They also publish their own titles as "The Gun Room Press".  Their
catalog is 104 pages and they claim over 7000 in-print titles plus
6000 out-of-print and used books plus a large stock of gun magazines
(printed, I assume :-) including _American Rifleman_ back issues.  It
looks like they carry all the NRA publications, and ship a whole lot
faster than the NRA (pet peeve of mine.)  Titles are listed
alphabetically with prices.  They seem to send their catalog with
orders only if requested, so be sure to ask for it.

Phone orders over $15 on Visa or MasterCard are accepted.  Shipping in
the U.S. is $2 per book, and $5 per book outside the U.S.  Foreign
orders are accepted with payment in U.S. dollars drawn on a U.S. bank,
Postal money orders, Visa or MasterCard.

Prices seem to be normal retail, but most titles get an automatic 10%
discount, and orders $35 or more get a "bonus book" from a list of
about 50 titles if requested.

Returns are accepted if sent postpaid within five days of receipt, and
misbound books are returnable at any time.

I've ordered from this place several times, and my experiences have
always been good.  Their stock is truly awesome, and if I see a
gun-related title listed in any other catalog, they nearly always have
it too.  They rarely have to backorder.  Shipping is claimed to be
within 48 hours, but they seem to usually ship the same day.  Each
time I've called in an order it arrives the next day (we're both
located in NJ.)  They do have a retail store that's more of a gun shop
than a bookstore, and they require a day's notice to retrieve a book
from their warehouse if you go there, so they seem to be geared for
mail order only.

Disclaimer:  I'm not connected with this outfit in any way except as a
customer.
--
  - Leslie Johnson  (les@ulysses.att.com) 1+908-582-5493
       "One Bell System - It Works"
From: U28037%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Jason Kratz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: carrying guns
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:05:06 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

After getting several replies to my post I thought that I should post
again.  I asked people if they were carrying guns legally or illeagally.
I received a reply stating that gun laws were different from state to
state.  I guess then that most people have licenses to carry guns.  Is
there someone who could tell me where I could find out about each states
gun laws?  In Illinois, as far as I know, it isn't possible to get a
license.  I have a gun card to be able to buy and fire weapons but it
isn't a license to carry a weapon.  Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jason
From: erico@narrator.pen.tek.com (Eric Oosterhof;627-4329;47-786;tekig1.pen;)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Llama .45 Magazines
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:13 GMT
Organization: tektronix


In article <9211101922.AA25484@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU>, C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
|> A friend of mine has one of those Llama .45 pistols, and he's
|> looking for magazines.  I told him that the Llama could use magazines
|> made for the 1911 series, but he's unsure.
|> 
|> Do standard generic 1911 magazines function reliably in the Llama .45,
|> or would he be better off buying genuine Llama mags?
|> 
|> The reason I ask is price:  generic 1911 mags are $6.95 vs $19.95 for
|> the Llama brand.
|> 
|> Rob

I had no problems using genuine Colt mags in my Llama.  It might be a 
good idea to try each magazine in the Llama before he buys.


-- 
Eric Oosterhof                "Gentlemen, I have the utmost confidence 
erico@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM       in your ability to perform...
(503) 627-4329                 the impossible!"  Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"Choosy mothers choose .gif"  Anthony C. Zable
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trajectory Question
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.27274
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <9211051549.AA01004@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:

#responding to article by John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)

#John, I'm sorry but you've completely missed it:

[stuff deletd]

# >center of gravity or something.  Anyhow, this is just an illustration.

#And a poor one at that.  Again, wrong, since

[stuff deleted]

# >QED  No legerdemain or nothin'.  8-)

#Houdini would be proud. ;-)

#--- Dan

Hey Dan, this is the kinder and gentler newsgroup.  By all means take 
exception to everything I've said but let's hold down the insult crap,
huh?  I'm guilty of getting frustrated at the handicap of having to 
communicate well in short sound bytes on this infernal machine same as 
you or anybody else, but let's try to be reasonable here and use this
frustration to increase our efforts to honestly communicate.  
'Nuff said.

As to your objections to my simplification of the problem:  Absolutely.
I agree completely that my assumptions were idealistic.  I was only
trying to demonstrate that it is possible to increase recoil energy by 
having the momentum initially taken up by a lighter mass.  So I picked
the worst case.  Let me try it a different way:

If you have a gun that has the weight of a car, the momentum transferred
to the gun when it is fired causes very little increase in the gun's kinetic
energy.  When you have a gun that has the weight of a derringer, a large
amount of kinetic energy is transferred to it.  If that momentum is
transferred to yet another mass of equal weight by elastic collision,
then this second mass now has the velocity and energy which the first
mass had.  All very ideal, I agree, but the point was demonstration of
a possibility, not absolute realism.  And in fact, semi-autos do have
more recoil energy.  No where near as much as I've shown, but a little more.

Now who was it that said all this was better put in Hatcher's writings?
Which writings?  What page of what book or magazine?  Is it the same
argument differently approached or a different argument?

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:57 GMT


#Remember that the person may not speak your language or hear at all.
 
#One ofthe most telling things I ever participated in was a training
#excercise for police.  The setup for the film was that an armed and
#dangerous person call was recieved.  White male, mid 20's, long hair,
#near the RR tracks.  You cut to the scene of someone more or less fitting
#that description coming toward you accross the tracks.  The question is:
#When do you shoot him?  While he keeps comming 'you' (the cop in the 
#film...) order him to stop.  To stop and lay down.  He reaches behind
#his back into a back pocket.  You shout again for him to STOP AND PUT
#HIS HANDS UP!.  (At this point about 75% of the class has said 'bang',
#the signal that they would shoot at that point...).
 
#Well, the 'perp' (at about 5 ft 'range' from you) whips out a card from
#his back pocket which states:  "Please forgive me, I am deaf and cannot
#understand what you are saying.  Can you write it down please?".
 

Come on now!  Not terrbily realistic....
The universal sign for forbidden is a red cricle with a slash
The universal sign for pause on audio equipment are two vertical bars.
and the universal sign for stop whatever the hell you're doing and put
your hands up is.....
......the muzzle end of a police handgun filling most of your field of view.
(now if he was BLIND....)

Back to the (semi) original question.  What can you do if you have a
perp at gunpoint who is uncooperative?  the whole point of having the
gun aimed at him is the implied threat, "do what I say or I'll shoot
you."  So with the knowledge that a nice respectable citizen such as
yourself has no time and money for extended litigation, the punk may
just decide that he "feels lucky."

Let's go even farther from the ideal scenerio.  Let's say you chase off
a burglar... then you're just letting him come back another day.  Most
civilians (myself included) do not have the skill to apprehend him, and
it would be foolish to do so.  A shot in the back (besides violating any
code of honor, which I believe that the criminal has forfeited in his
violation of your property and safety) would be liability hell.

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese TS45 air rifles (need info)
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:17 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <74052@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:
#
#I have recently seen an add for a chinese TS45 air rifle for $49.95.
#I am interested in the accuracy, power and durability of this rifle.
#It is a spring piston, side cocking .177 caliber airgun with a claimed
#velocity of 800 feet per second.

I recently acquired at TS45 and this last weekend had a chance to check
it out.  Brief review:

The workmanship is so-so.  The black paint was scraped off from the
front sling mount and the trigger guard where the action screws are
installed (it looked like somebody used an oversize screwdriver during
assembly).  The metal parts fit OK.  The barrel is almost free-floating
but actually rides on the edges of the barrel relief cut in the stock;
a few minutes with some sandpaper would fix this.  The metal is a bit
rusty under the blueing; wiping it with an oiled patch produces
brown deposits on the patch.  I don't know if the inside of the
barrel is rusty because I don't have any cleaning equipment to fit.

Functioning is OK with one exception (described below).  It takes
a moderate amount of force to pull the lever back; while you pull,
it makes creaking noises as the spring is charged.  You drop a pellet
into the breech end of the barrel and then close the lever.  There
is no safety.  Trigger pull is heavy - I haven't measured it but I
guess at about 15 pounds.

The big gotcha, at least on the one that I examined, is that the
barrel is bent.  The gun shoots about 1.5 inches high and right at
10 meters and the sights are adjusted as far as possible (from the
factory) attempting to correct for this.  It took a while before I
figured out that the barrel is bent; I'll be contacting the supplier
today and I'll post what I learn.

Side note: I have been told by a usually reliable source that the
Chinese pellets are not good for accuracy; he suggests using pellets
from Daisy or Crosman.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:05:18 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <9211062117.aa09242@s.s.ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#Those small propane tanks are nice. Merely place a
#road flare appx. 6" from it, go about 50 yards (minimum) away,
#and kablam! :)

Well, I wasn't going to say it but since it is already out.

Cans of ether based starter fluid or Gumout Carburetor cleaner work great
too.  You can use road flares, or even just soak a bit of paper in oil and
stand it in expended shotgun shells, off to one side.

BE ADVISED: do this in an area that is generally not flammable, and even
then be prepared to put out small fires.  I do not suggest that you try
this except at your own risk.  It is potentially very dangerous, make sure
you are at least 25 yards away when you shoot at the target.  You have been
warned, and furthermore, I don't really have much so you won't really have
won anything even if you sue me and win.
to put
-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Pistol Grip On A Shotgun ( was: Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:18 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <1992Nov10.221857.12746@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <199211090404.AA28009@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
## DELETED:[someone was talking about Benelli M1 Super 90.]
##(1) Is pistol grip a good idea on a shotgun?
#
#I hate 'em. I think the only way to fire a shotgun (except at extreme close
#range) is the way God intended--from the shoulder. Contrary to Hollywood
#legend, a shotgun has to be aimed, and the only way to do that is with the
#stock against your shoulder. Also, the recoil of a 12 gauge is more
#difficult to control when firing from the hip--I find rapid fire _much_
#more manageable when the gun is shoulder-fired. And if I _must_ fire from
#the hip, I find it helpful to tuck the stock under my elbow, and press it
#against my body--this helps steady my aim for followup shots. Obviously,
#you can't do that with a pistol grip. ....

I'm sorry that I didn't make my question clear. This particular shotgun I'm
talking about, Benelli M1 Super 90, has a pistol grip *AND* a stock. Think 
it as an AR-15. So, please let me re-state my question. Is a shotgun of this
configuration ( pistol grip + stock ) better or one like Beretta Model 1200 
Riot ( stock only )? Thanks.

David


-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions