From: bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Lipstick
Date: 13 Sep 1992 16:31:46 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <18oq3vINNml1@agate.berkeley.edu> 
uunet!mailrus!gatech!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.UCAR.EDU 
(Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes in reply to me:

>> But then, I
>> am just revealing my personal preferences, which might not be
>> typical for North American men.  Personally, I think women look
>> better *without* make-up.  -
>
>It's funny....I know a number of men who also say that they like the
>way women look without make-up.  But those same men still are
>attracted to heavily made-up models and actresses on TV or in
>magazines.  

A woman who is skillfully made up certainly looks attractive.  (She is,
after all, still a woman. :-))  And such a woman may be more
*noticeable* than one in a more natural state.  However, all that
superficial (literally) beauty can make it harder to see into the human
person within, where the true beauty lies.

>(In fact, wasn't it you that expressed an appreciation for "pin-ups"?)  

You either misunderstood me, or are confusing me with someone else.  I
find offensive anything that objectifies a person.

>This sends a contradictory message to women (who care
>what men think about the way they look).  What do you think about
>this?

Well, if women expect to get *a* message from men--i.e., a blanket
statement about what every man prefers in every woman at every time, 
they are bound to hear contradictions.  What you might hear from me is
"Yes, *she* looks good all made up, but I like *you* just the way you
are".  (I am not trying to get personal, I have no idea what Cindy looks
like, the pronouns above just indicate the relationship with the hearer)

>What if men wore fake mustaches and beards?  They could put them on in
>the morning and take them off at night.  They could have different
>colors to match their clothing or their moods.  They would be
>expensive (say $25-$40), and need replacing at least once a year.
>Although the fake beards make some attempt to look "natural" and
>"highlight" men's natural features, everyone can easily tell that they
>are fake, and in fact, men make no effort to conceal this fact.
>
>(I would have brought up toupees, except that they are supposed to
>look "natural", and I assume you don't need a lot of them.)
>
>So, would fake beards and the like be an "extravagance"?  A non-issue?
>Even if, eventually, all the men on TV and in the magazines had
>beards?  Even if a man or two were fired because he refused to wear a
>fake beard?

What you have described sounds much like the situation with wigs (for
both men and women), in the 17th & 18th centuries.  The practice
persists in British courts of law.  Is it a fair comparison between a
receptionist who refuses to wear make-up and a judge who refuses to wear
a wig?

fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster) writes:

>The problem I have when someone says--with regard to any form of
>discrimination--that "for me it's a non-issue," is that the dismissive
>attitude suggests that the problem doesn't exist, that people who
>worry over it in such forums as soc.feminism are nattering on about
>nothing.  

I did not mean to dismiss the issue.  As the father of two teenage girls
I am very aware of the danger of the "beauty myth".  I was just
offering my perspective on the issue, with the somewhat vain insinuation
that if everyone thought as I did, there would be no problem.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




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