HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Human Rights...
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:57:25 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <h!snlmm.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
>Subject: Re: Human Rights...
>Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 02:40:34 GMT

>In article <1992Sep8.183348.23415@clipper.ingr.com> ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date) writes:
>    >I disagree. There is a much greater chance of agreement if
>    >people are non-rigid in their moral beliefs, or are willing
>    >to ignore them when empirical evidence conflicts with them,
>    >or when tolerance of the other fellow's view will yield a
>    >mutually beneficial result.

>True, but in a horrible sense. I'm sure that a group of Muslims and Catholics
>could, in being "non-rigid", plot together much more effectively to get
>say, the Jews.

>Or to justify doing business with the NAZIs or the (now ex) Soviets or
>the PRC or Vietnam -- hell, rigid morality just gets in the way, don't it?

>    >But, in general, I think that there are few subjective
>    >utilitarian gains to be had by making absolutist moral
>    >claims, if you want to proceed on that level. The typical
>    >historical result of rigid ideological camps is war.

>Again true, but limited. Holding the WRONG absolutes is useless or worse.
>If you hold the wrong absolutes in science, you be fucked. If you hold
>that all X people should be liquidated, you also be fucked.

>    >To me the essence of morality is tolerance of others. Not
>    >because it is an absolute truth, but because it works.
>    >Tolerance says that you can believe whatever the hell you
>    >want, as long as you dont impose it on me. This allows people
>    >to interact in positive ways (including economic), without
>    >ever having to confront their inevitable disagreements on
>    >absolute moral truth.

>So you and I, holding that "thous shalt not kill" are on an "equal" level
>with that thug in the funny black uniform@holding the train to the
>concentration camps?

>Sorry, I'll take absolutes with MY coffe please -- you go over and
>"tolerate" him, eh?

>Of course, it IS an absolute to say "as long as you dont impose it on me"
>ya' know ....

Ditto! Also, what happens to your gospel of tolerance in case you encounter
someone in another culture who believes it is his moral duty to be 
intolerant of those who have a different moral view than he?  

>-- 
>phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

>"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
>"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

>These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        ANTHEM BBS 386-7907
P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is heroism.
Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 1943)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: miballar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michael Ballard)
Subject: Vote "Your Name" for office
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: ba
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 23:28:59 GMT

Instead of not voting, maybe another more forceful statement would be
to write in one's own name for this or that office.

-- 
Mike Ballard 
Time is money. Steal some today!
Don't just complain, organize! e-mail iww@igc.org  Ph: (415)863-WOBS.

Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: jazanopa@ntmtv.UUCP (Patricia Jazanoski)
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Reply-To: jazanopa@ntmtv.UUCP (Patricia Jazanoski)
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc.  
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:34:42 GMT

In article <athos-130992192935@kip2-47.apple.com> athos@apple.com (Rick Eames) writes:
>In article <65786@cup.portal.com>, ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) wrote:
>> 
>> Well, for that matter, why should they tax your income?  Apple PAID taxes
>> when they EARNED it, and then they give it to you.  Why tax it again?
>
>No business pays taxes on money they pay to employees, that's why.
>

Wrong. Businesses must also pay social security tax on salary to their
employees. They match the $$ each employee pays.  There are other taxes 
(at least states imposed), but I can't recall the details. I'm
sure anyone here that is self-employed can fill in the details.
Anyway, the point Tim was making is that life is just one big tax cycle.

  I buy a Mac, I pay sales tax.
  Apple earns $$, they pay taxes.
  Apple pays its employees, they pay taxes. (plus Apple pays taxes)
  Employee makes purchase and pays taxes. 
  etc etc etc 

This tax scheme is only going to create an even wider gap between
the have and have-nots. And in this picture, we (engineers) are in
the middle and closer to the have-nots. The difference between your
$80K salary (or whatever) and the poverty level is a lot smaller than 
the difference between your salary and Ross Perot's, or others that 
will benefit from this scheme is a BIG way.  The richest 5% of 
Americans own/control the majority of our $$ resources.  It's really 
appalling.  (I'll try to get exact figures). 

The whole purpose of the proressive tax scheme is the understanding
that people need a certain amount of $$ for basic living needs.
Therefore, people whose income is close or below that (i.e. college
students) are the least able to afford to pay taxes. When people
have income over a certain amount, they are better able to pay more 
on that extra income. (everyone pays the same amount on their first $$)
That's why sales tax is a regressive tax plan; poor people pay a larger
percentage of their income on sales tax.

Even everyone's favorite billionaire, Ross Perot, admitted that
big wealth is created/accumulated through non-earned income activity. 
By the way, Ross earned over $1 Million A DAY in unearned income.
If we stop taxing that money, where will the tax revenues come from??
(although I'm sure Ross avoids paying as much taxes as possible)

Patti Jazanoski

>--
>Rick Eames                               My Opinions Are My Own (not
>Apple's)
>athos@apple.com
>
>HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to Barbara Boxer.

Xref: sparky ba.politics:5291 ca.politics:7752
From: emmett@kpc.com (Emmett Kilgariff)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:43:27 GMT
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computer Corporation, Santa Clara, CA

In article <-rynwld.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <26285@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>    >You're using a dishonest argument here,
>    >using some propaganda-like rhetoric & probably some special
>    >pleading... ... ... now I have to support the idle rich
>    >too?!?!
>
>Talk about propaganda!!! How about taxing me to support the idle poor?
	Sounds like propaganda to me.

>The "poor" that don't have to work for the food stamps and GA and place
>a huge burden on the "services" you mutter about, the services that the
>rich don't burden much.
>
	 
>BTW -- just WHAT are these beloved services of yours?
>
	I know of a BIG, EXPENSIVE service the government provides
	that the rich benefit from, but the poor don't benefit much:
	All those federally insured deposits in S&L's and banks that
	went under that we'll be eating up  a large % of the federal 
	budget  (and your tax dollars) for years to come. 

There's others, but that's the easiest target. There are plenty of 
services the rich benefit from. That's why they donate so much to 
political campaigns.
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5094 talk.politics.theory:4088
From: kmd@fico.uucp
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Who IS Clyaton Cramer?
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:42:07 GMT
Reply-To: kmd@fico.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE)
Organization: The Fair, Isaac Companies, San Rafael, California

In article <1992Sep9.203208.18002@tcsi.com> swami@tcs.com (Venkates Swaminathan) writes:
>I'm new to this newsgroup, so maybe this is a silly question.
>
>Who is Clayton Cramer, and why are his views on gays and lesbians the subject of
>so much of the debate on ba. politics? Is he someone really important or
>influential?
>
>
>Swami

Clayton Cramer is a nondescript nero engineer at DSC Optilink. Having had the 
mis fortune to work with him, not only ther, but at HDTS,I am very well  
acquainted with him and his Rhetoric.He is absolutely desperate for attention of
any kind, which should, by now, be obvious. I suggest that as long as he and
Phil Ronzone are replied to-they will continue to spew forth all the propaganda
they've digested. So-seems the sensible thing to do is IGNORE THEM.

By the way Mr.Cramer-if you want to feel safe and surrounded by those who think
as you do, why don't you start/join a group of similiar thinkers? Imagine-you
could have your own parades-headed off by The Herd O' Nerds-but you've got to
have your broken glasses held together by tape to join!!!!!
Cheers!
h
h
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5158 ca.politics:7583
From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:55:42 GMT
Reply-To: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Organization: DEC Western Software Lab

In article <p7sn=ag.phil@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep9.130523@wsl.dec.com> gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
|>     >Bzzt. Thanks for playing. There are several non-gay owned
|>     >places in the Castro. Including the local hardware store,
|>     >Cliff's Variety. Now if you were actively hostile to gays
|>     >then you would probably lose all of you business.
|> 
|> Out of the hundreds of places in the Castro, there are several that
|> aren't owned by homosexuals. Wonderful.
|> 
Of the hundreds?  You idiot, obviously you've never even been there.

The Castro encompasses several city blocks of San Francisco, the
commercial parts are (approximately):
Castro from Market&17th to 19th
18th St. from about Collingwood to about 1 block E of Castro.
Market St. from Castro to 15th St.
The total number of shops/restaurants is probably about 100.

|> Even more, someone KNOWS the sexual orientation of the owner of a hardware
|> store. Shit, I don't even know the name of the owner of ANY of the stores
|> I go to, much less their sexual orientation.
|> 

Well, I happen to know the names of most of the owners, and have met
them, to the stores that I frequent.  This includes the grocery that 
I go to.  You see, I actually give a shit about how I live my life
instead of living in a Safeway kind of world.

For someone who cares about personal rights you don't seem to hot
on even thinking about how you wield these rights and responsibilities.

Loser.


-- 
To fathom hell, or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic.
				Dr. Osmond
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Who IS Clyaton Cramer?
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:06:13 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <1992Sep9.203208.18002@tcsi.com>, swami@tcs.com (Venkates
Swaminathan) wrote:
> 
> I'm new to this newsgroup, so maybe this is a silly question.
> 
> Who is Clayton Cramer, and why are his views on gays and lesbians the subject of
> so much of the debate on ba. politics? Is he someone really important or
> influential?

"Clayton Cramer" is fiction -- a cruel parody of protofascist extremism and
ideological bigotry, perpetrated by irresponsible survivors from the
Symbionese Liberation Army.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart)
Subject: Re: Recall Gov. Pete Wilson
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 18:00:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


		BITE 'EM BACK
	Organization Meeting to Recall:

	    Governor Pete Wilson
	Assembly Speaker Willie Brown
    Senate President Pro Tem David Roberti

    Come to 485 Auzerais, San Jose
	Tuesday    9-8-92  at 7:00 pm
	Wednesday  9-8-92  at 7:00 pm
	Thursday   9-8-92  at 7:00 pm
	Friday     9-8-92  at 7:00 pm


The meeting will be in a warehouse behind the Buffalo Soldier office.
Parking is limited so either get there early or park on the street or
in the OSH parking lot two blocks away.


		 Josefa  Gifford
       Royal |      |      |
    -----+---+------+------+----- San Carlos
 ^    OSH|   |      |      | 
 |	 |   |      | 485  | 
 N  -----+---+---+--+------+----- Auzerais
 |	     |   |  |      |
 ^  =========|=================== 280
	     |
	 Bird Ave
-- 
=============================================================================
Mr Loren L. Hart                                       The Ada Ace Group, Inc
loren@netcom.com                                       P.O. Box 36195
				                       San Jose, CA  95158
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5214 ca.politics:7659
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 12 Sep 1992 01:01:58 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Rick Eames writes:
>Income, to me, is money you *earn*.  If my dad leaves me the money he saved
 ...
>it to me.  Why tax it again?

I guess we've entered pissing contest territory, but I have to say
again, 'Why not?'  Estate taxation is one of the oldest forms of
taxation around.   What's so special about this form of income?
You think, for example, the Kennedys' inherited-wealth lifestyle
should be protected by tax policy?   No, thanks.

Speaking for myself, I'm a lot more irritated about the taxes extracted
directly out of what I "*earn*".  As should most people, who are not
likely to inherit much other than a broken color tv & a shaving mug 
from their dads.
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Who IS Clyaton Cramer?
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:30:10 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <pm6i26c@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:

>In article <l7sn25f.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:

>>Naw -- he's just someone who thinks and posts rational thoughts mostly.

>As long as Clayton stays away from the topic of homosexuality and
>or child sexuality, I would have to agree with this statement.

>>So he's a real minority on this group and should be ignored.

>Oh please....

>>After all, ignore the unpleasant truth and it will just go away.

>Why doesn't Clayton do this?
>FWA

But he does! He'd prefer to think of homosexuals as a well-lubricated
engine, a hive of social insects, a group-think entity, a leather and
drag cabal, a fascist consortium, a hedonist super-orgy.

And in doing so he effectively blocks out the unpleasant (to him) fact
that we are, like all other human beings, a mixture of vice and virtue.
We are individuals.

He knows that, he just hasn't admitted to himself yet. As soon as he gets
over that hurdle and starts treating us individually and humanely, we
will be able to have a rational discourse on sexuality with him.

Just look at Phil Ronzone, for example---oy, the progress he's made!

He's light years ahead of Clayton (at least in my book)

Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cramer@optilink.uucp (Clayton Cramer): Message-ID: <12133@optilink.UUCP>
I realize it's difficult for a person as depraved as [Brian Kane].
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
ones true self.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:16:05 GMT

In article <athos-130992192422@kip2-47.apple.com> athos@apple.com (Rick Eames) writes:
>Hello?  Hello? Had you read Mr. Herschensohn's tax plan (the reason this
>tread exists) you would notice you wouldn't HAVE to pay any tax on your
>house.

Mr. Herschensohn's plan is going to eliminate local property taxes ???
Gee, I wonder how he is going to do that while he is in the Senate ?
Perhaps he is secretly running for governor and hasn't told anyone ;^)

>That's why I am fighting it.  It's stupid.  The House has, as we speak,
>passed a bill (HR: 4848) that will further rape you. If you're happy with
>that, be the ball.
>
>I am not happy with that.

Rick, you will be happy to know (I think) that you and I actually agree
on this issue.  IMHO, the current arrangement is fair (ie: $600,000 exemption).
Lowering this to $200,000 would do several things which would be very bad
for the country.  One major drawback is that it would prevent many people
from leaving small businesses to their heirs.  You must remember that
Federal inheiratance taxes START at 45%.  So everything over $200,000 would
be taxed at AT LEAST that rate.  Many businesses which might have significantly
more value than that couldn't operate with that kind of capital removed.
The heirs would have no option but to sell the business to pay the taxes.

I still haven't heard if this tax has an exemption for transfer of property
between spouses.  If not, this could very easily result in widows/widowers
being taxed out of their homes on the death of their spouse.  This is
abhorrent to me.  

All in all, a very bad bill.  One that probably won't raise much revenue
(in Federal terms) but which will result in a great deal of anguish for
many people.

Guido
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5135 ca.politics:7557
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:04:49 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <0wrnc+h.loren@netcom.com> loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart) writes:
>athos@apple.com (Rick Eames) writes:

>: Total abolition of taxes on interest from savings and other financial
>: accounts
>: Total abolition of taxes on dividends
>: Total abolition of the personal capital gains tax
>: Total abolition of the federal estate tax

>Notice that this makes the idle rich pay absolutly no taxes at all!

Not quite.  First off, tax is paid when the money is originally
earned.  Secondly, dividends are currently double-taxed becasue the
corporation paying them is taxed.  This proposal would replace that
with taxing them only once.

As for the rest, it really isn't clear to me at all why income from
savings accounts and capital gains should be taxed.  As for the estate
tax, don't you think it is a bit unreasonable to even tax death?

Is deciding who should pay really a valid way to impose taxes?

>The only category of income tax left is Earned Income.  Using this
>approach, someone who makes Millions of dollars on various investment
>income pays $0 in income tax.  I don't necessarly believe that the rich
>should be taxed more heavily than everyone else, but they should pay
>something.

The companies they invest in pay tax.  Making them pay tax again is
double-taxation. 

>I would also like to point out that the federal estate tax is only
>charged on estates larger than $600,000 dollars.  Again, this is
>something that would benifit the very rich.

That's a laugh.  Most homes are worth something approaching that range.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: Who IS Clyaton Cramer?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 01:27:09 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.

In article <95695@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
    >Just look at Phil Ronzone, for example---oy, the progress
    >he's made!
    >
    >He's light years ahead of Clayton (at least in my book)

Uh, sorry Brian, but I don't think I've changed at all (indeed, those
that disagree with me on this merely think I've changed for the "worse").

Therefore, I guess it must have been you that changed!!!

:-)



-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
From: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Reply-To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Organization: QueerNet
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:45:09 GMT

In article <bsvnbzn.phil@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
|> In article <BuEL52.KJI@queernet.org> rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
|> writes:
|>     >In article <j9tn07=.phil@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil
|>     >Ronzone) writes:
|>     >>>For me, I don't give a shit about the sexual orientation of
|>     >>>the owners(s) of the places I patronize.
|>     >>>
|>     >What does *knowing* about it have to do with *caring* about
|>     >it?
|> 
|> But come on now -- since stores do NOT, to my knowledge, post signs
|> that state the sexual preferences (and skin color and sex and ...) of
|> the owners (for the most part), then some degree of exertion must
|> be made to find out, and even more exertion to post this knowledge
|> to the net.

Silly me.  When I shop at a store that is staffed by a married couple and
their children, I assume that the parents are most likely heterosexual or 
bisexual....
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG                 {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5098 ca.politics:7513
From: athos@Apple.COM (Richard Eames)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Flat Rate Tax (Q&A)
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:55:31 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

loren@netcom.com (Loren Hart) writes:

>Notice that this makes the idle rich pay absolutly no taxes at all!
>The only category of income tax left is Earned Income.  Using this
>approach, someone who makes Millions of dollars on various investment
>income pays $0 in income tax.  I don't necessarly believe that the rich
>should be taxed more heavily than everyone else, but they should pay
>something.

It also helps *you* since anything you make doing the above too.  Why is it
if the rich happen to benifit from something that we do, we get all bent
out of shape?

>I would also like to point out that the federal estate tax is only
>charged on estates larger than $600,000 dollars.  Again, this is
>something that would benifit the very rich.

Check again.  The US Congress, in their wisdom, has passed a bill to the 
Senate lowering that to $200,000!  It's in a elderly-care bill.

>It is clear that Herschensohn is interested in a tax break for the very
>rich and putting that burden on us working stiffs.

Not really. All people benfit from the same rules.  We simplify the tax
laws, make life easier and allow you to keep more of your income.  Somehow,
if the "rich" benfit from it as well, you're flipping out.