From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Vaccinations?
Date: 5 Jan 93 10:19:46 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1993Jan4.194630.21590@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.075919.16904@rtf.bt.co.uk> traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>(1) Measles and mumps have always been innocuous diseases in the pre-pubescent.
>
>I don't think you'd call them innocuous.  Most cases of measles are
>uncomplicated, but there are those which are not (on the order of
>1/500-1/1000).

Please  provide  references  for  your  figures. The figure I have from the
SSPE  (Subacute  Sclerosing  Panencephalitis,  which  is  the  most serious
complication  of  measles) Registry is 1 per million. Your figure of 1/1000
is  probably  taken  from  a  BMJ  study  on  encephalitis in 1963 (Miller,
frequency  of  Measles)  which  has not been updated. As for mumps the risk
of  complication  to  women  is  *zero* and to men there is a small risk of
sterility,  but  only  if the disease is caught when an adult. The best way
to  ensure  immunization  is  to  get the disease before puberty. The mumps
vaccine  is  known  to  cause  encephalitis,  seizures and unilateral nerve
deafness (Ref. Pediatric Disease Journal Nov. 1989).

>>(2) My father could hardly have been guilty of malpractice when the vaccines
>>    for measles and mumps were ***not even available*** in the 1950's.
>
>That's true.

Perhaps then you could withdraw your allegation about my father's 
malpractice in public (since this is where you made the allegation).

>>(3) The measles complications you refer to are most prevalent in teenage
>>    children who have previously been immunized and have reached puberty. (*)
>
>I wasn't addressing these in my article.  The measles complications
>you are alluding to occur most frequently after the use of the original
>killed measles vaccine, which is no longer available.

The  live  vaccine  is  still  not  guaranteed  to be effective. The US has
tried  at  least  four  strains  of measles vaccine and all four (including
the current(?) Schwarz strain) have significant failure rates.

>>>>Proper nutrition is far more important than any immunization.
>>Please explain the Los Angeles Health Dept reports linking measles
>>complications to socio-economic indicators among Mexican immigrants.
>
>Easy.  Malnutrition increases your risk of problems.  Adequate nutrition
>doesn't protect individuals against infection.  One should strive for both
>proper nutrition and proper immunization.  The first is no substitute for
>the second.

Agreed, though you seem to think that taking a risky vaccine that may not
last constitutes proper immunization. I do not.

>That some immunizations don't take in any individual is not an argument
>against widespread immunization; it's an argument for better quality
>control in the preparation's manufacture and delivery.

I  would  think  it  was  a better argument for removing possibly dangerous
immunisations  and  returning  to  the  safety  of  allowing individuals to
catch  the  disease  naturally  before  puberty, when the complications are
greatly  reduced.  When the vaccines are safe and effective then maybe they
should  be  used,  but  at  present  we are just lining the coffers of drug
companies.

Here   is  a  list  of  possible  side  effects  of  the  MMR  vaccine,  as
distributed by Wellcome, the distributor of MMRII:

	fever and rash
	orchitis
	nerve deafness
	febrile convulsions
	encephalitis
	Guillain-Barre syndrome (a paralysis)
	SSPE
	atypical measles
	arthritis

>The oral polio
>vaccine is indeed associated with some cases of adult polio.  The incidence
>of this is very low, but that's not too comforting to someone who is
>paralyzed.

On this we agree.

>Still, no one is claiming that the vaccines are perfect,
>merely that not administering them to your children has more drawbacks
>(individually and collectively) than going ahead with them.

On this we do not.


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@btcs.bt.co.uk

    JOE, taxi driver: Unemployment will rise and sooner or later the
    masses will revolt against it. There'll be civil disorder and the
    further breakdown of civil society. The end result I hope will be
    the triumph of the people over capitalism. I also wouldn't mind
    if a few more people used taxis this year - '92 was rotten.

(Taken from "Hopes and Fears" in The Guardian, December 31st 1992, a
section which looked at what people saw 1993 bringing)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative