From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Picking and Choosing our References
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:43:10 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <94509@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> In article <11839@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
> worships Romans 1:26:
# #Clear enough?  Now, I agree that the section in I Corinthians
# #may be somewhat ambiguous, because of the problems with determining
# #the precise meaning of "arsenkoitai," but Romans is very clear,
# #and consistent with the Old Testament prohibitions on homosexuality.
# 
# Well, aside from the burning question of why you have more faith
# in Paul than in Jesus (who never mentioned homosexuality, and whose
# lover [in a non-sexual sense] was a male apostle), here is a
# summary:
# 
# The supposedly sweeping Biblical condemnation of homosexuality
# rests almost exclusively on only the following eight (brief)
# passages; (all other references merely reiterate or comment upon
# these eight passages, and so are merely cited in parentheses):

[Old Testament passages deleted because only relevant to those
living by Old Testament law -- Orthodox Jews]
# 
#    VI & VII. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10.  The ke words are
# translated differently in different versions:  from 1 Cor.:
# "catamites, sodomites" (Moffat); "effeminate, homosexuals" (ASV);
# "homosexual perversion: (New English Bible); "Male prostitutes,
# homosexual offenders" (New International Version) etc.; 1 Timothy is
# also variously translated.  However, there was no noun in Greek for
# homosexual; apparently the translations condemning homosexuals are
# inaccurate.  The Greek words suggest not "homosexual" but
# "effeminate" or "morally weak or soft" or "cowardly."

The word in question is "arsenkoitai," which has the English
cognates "arse" and "coitus."  Exactly what that word means is
debatable, as I made clear above.  But the two examples of
its usage in roughly contemporary Greek indicate either homosexual
prostitute, or pederast.
 
#    VIII.  Romans 1:26-27.  The only passage in the Bible mentioning
# Lesbian acts.  Conclusion:  The supposedly sweeping Biblical
# condemnation of homosexuality simply doesn't hold up to close
# scrutiny, as it is limited to acts of prostitute, idolatry, violent
# or non-consensual acts, inaccurate translations, or outmoded
# prejudices against women and their supposed inferiority.  How can
# these be applied to a committed relationship based on love (rather
# than mere lust) between two consenting adults of the same gender?

Now here's an example of Brian Kane's lack of honesty.  Romans
1:26-27 is NOT limited to acts of prostitution, and includes
homosexuality along with idolatry and other actions clearly
prohibited.  He can't directly address this passage because it
is so utterly unambiguous, so he just lies.

#    There seems to be little point in arguing with people who believe
# the earth was created in 4,004 B.C.E.; this doesn't mean that you

Completely agree.  Fortunately, the two issues are not connected,
and many Christians recognize that the Earth is at least 4.5 billion
years old, and still recognize that the Bible teaches that homosexuality
is wrong.

# #Which parts don't support my case?  Homosexuality is no WORSE of
# #a sin than adultery, or murder, or hatred, but it is clearly a
# #sin.  There are no verses that illustrate homosexual relationships
# #in a positive light.
# 
#    Remember:  Jesus himself never married nor had children!  Other
# parts of the Bible simply can't be forced into the "family values"
# obsession of the Fundamentalists, for example:
# 
#    -   The Book of Ruth sensitively portrays bonding and devotion
# between two women.  Also don't miss Book of Judith for a surprising

I have strong emotional bonds and devotion with a few men as well.
That doesn't make me a homosexual.  There is nothing in Ruth that
implies homosexuality.

# overturning of male/female roles:  Judith sneaks into the enemy
# camps, cuts off the head of Holofernes, the leader of the enemy
# army, returns and receives a hero's welcome, and then lives out the
# remainder of her days with her maidservants, rejecting all male
# suitors!

What does this "male/female roles" issue have to do with homosexuality?

#    -   The "friendship" between David and Jonathan.  The relevant
# passages:  1 Samuel 18:1-4; 20:3-4, and especially, 20:41 and 2
# Samuel 1:25-26, quoted here:  "And as soon as the lad had gone,
# David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the
# ground, and bowed three times; and *they* (David and Jonathan)
# KISSED ONE ANOTHER, and wept with another, until David recovered
# himself"  (1 Sam. 20:41 New International Version).  Note:  It's
# really amusing to see the Fundamentalists try to dismiss the obvious
# passion in this episode!

Men kiss men all the time in the Middle East today.  That doesn't
make them homosexuals.

#    "(David speaks:)  'Jonathan lies slain... I am distressed for
# you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; YOUR
# LOVE TO ME WAS WONDERFUL, PASSING THE LOVE OF WOMEN'"  (Emphasis
# added by editor.)  (2 Sam 1:25-26, New International Version).

It never ceases to amaze me how homosexuals, because their entire
lives are wrapped up in their crotch, can't understand that there
are forms of love that are not sexual in nature.

# kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:42492 ca.politics:7152 ba.politics:4836