HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "eliot gelwan" <eliot.gelwan@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: retrofit rudder?
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:48:36 EST
Reply-To: "eliot gelwan" <eliot.gelwan@channel1.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

Is it possible to retrofit a skeg/rudder onto a sea kayak? If so,
what are some sources of the equipment and the knowhow?

I started in with the sport by buying a surplus Hydra Sea Venture
from a rental place last year. So far I haven't encountered
challenges to my ability to keep it on course, but then again I
haven't done anything very challenging yet. Just curious.
Appreciate any assistance with this request.

                                         eliot 
Internet: eliot.gelwan@channel1.com
    RIME: ->CHANNEL [R/O okay]
---
                              [in Brookline MA 11:16 am, Tuesday 04/14/92]
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:12:11 GMT

chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster) writes:


>This means you won't mind joining us to run ALL of Gore at 4000
>in a Kayak this year?  Or will you whimp out and take the Queen Mary?

>--Chris

No, I,d rather be on one of my pool toys than a crackerjack toy boat, i.e.
kayak.  But neither will I be on the Queen Mary, I'll be on my cat, thanks.
-Dennis
From: M14661@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Rafting
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:20:09 GMT

In article <LEE.92Apr7155749@meercat.wang.com>
lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
 
>
>
>(Bill Tuthill) writes:
>   [...]
>What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
>anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.  Sure, they're great rescue
>devices if you're on a sinking steamship (sometimes even in a
>river---but what was the steamship doing there?), but they don't play
>well, they're hard to hit eddies with and hard to turn, people keep
>falling out, you either get swiped in the head with oar handles or
>someone drops their paddle, and a good hard boater can run anything
>that a raft can (okay, we'll cheat a bit on the biggest holes, but
>make up for it in precision)....
>--
Well, as an open boater, rafter, and someone who's occasionally paddled easy
stuff in a kayak, I raft anything I don't feel capable of running in my open
boat.  For myself, I don't have a strong desire to be confident paddling the
Upper Gauley or Upper Yough in my open boat, I have now run the lower Yough,
which will cut down significantly on my raft/duckie time.  In years of rafting,
I've only fallen out twice, once not paying attention in the doldrums on
the lower Yough, and once trying to sneak a route through to rocks in the
middle at Railroad during high water.  Falling out is not generally an issue.
 
Also, losing a paddle is no more likely than it is for a kayaker or C-boater.
Why would it be?  It's true that lots of bozos raft, since you can run harder
water with less skill, but that doesn't make it intrinsically easier to lose
a paddle.  Similarly, a group of rafters who know what they're doing can really
make a raft perform.  It spins incredibly well, although you can't get it
to accelerate well.  For me, rafts are great fun, but I prefer other craft
if I'm able to paddle the river in one.  Still, rafts are fun, even then.
It's different paddling with a full raft team, and the craft is just different.
I think that's what it's all about.  Heck, there's no one perfect kayak or
open boat.  Similarly kayaks, rafts, open boats, C-boats all have pros and
cons.  Ain't diversity grand!
From: elessar@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Southeastern Rivers
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:04:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: uflorida.35026
Reply-To: elessar
Organization: University of Florida  (ufl.edu)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

Hi!  This summer I'm planning to go rafting and/or kayaking in the southeast
(meaning within say, 3 hours drive of Atlanta).  As far as rafting, I feel
confident of my abilities to captain a raft in up to class IV, but I'd like to
have a book of some sort that will warn me ahead of time of particularly nasty
sections so that I can raft rivers that I don't know by memory without risking
sending everyone swimming because I went down the wrong side.  Are there
any such publications?

In regard to kayaking, I'd like to learn.  Does anyone know of any reasonably
inexpensive outfitters and/or schools in the southeast?

Thanks,
Mark McCallister
internet:  BAGGINS@NERIX.NERDC.UFL.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: broome@solbourne.com (Bob Broome)
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 22:22:28 GMT



 You can also be a support boat on extended trips for those crazy
Kayakers who drink all your beer and eat all your steaks.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: mms7r@ascus.micr.Virginia.EDU (M. Mitchell Smith)
Subject: Any Other Kayak Reviews?
Originator: mms7r@ascus.micr.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:28:19 GMT

Thanks to Sebastian C. Sears, Chris Webster, Lee Story, and Todd Leigh
for the Corsica thread.  Anyone have comments on other boats?  I'd
be interested in evaluations of Prijon's line, for example.  Anyone
paddled an Prijon Invader?
-- 
M. Mitchell Smith			mms7r@Virginia.EDU
Department of Microbiology		(804) 924-2669
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22908
From: aem@paris.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Choosing a SeaKayak: Spectrum S?
Date: 13 Apr 92 01:40:45 GMT
Reply-To: aem@paris.cs.miami.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics & Computer Science, University of Miami
NNTP-Posting-Host: paris.cs.miami.edu


I recently bought a Naiad, which is a british design by Derek
Hutchinson. It is 17' by 22" with no skeg, small cockpit, and
a small front hatch and large rear one. It's a very nice boat,
although several times out in the wind I wish I had a skeg to
help me keep a straight course. Proabably just my limited ability.
I believe the cost was in the $1500 range.

aem
-- 
a.e.mossberg   -   aem@paris.cs.miami.edu   -   aem@umiami.bitnet
University of Miami Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Date: 8 Apr 92 11:23:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

lee@wang.com (Lee Story) asks:
> What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
> anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.

I've been rafting for over ten years, kayaking for a couple, and I
really like both, because they present different challenges.

In a kayak, you're on your own, and you have complete control over what
happens to you.  You choose your own line, and take the consequences of
your decision.  However, it does take some skill to run even mild
whitewater: duffeks and braces and rolls are not intuitive moves for
most people.  But you do get to surf and play around, and you don't
need many people or much gear to do a trip.

On the hand, nearly *anybody* can raft.  If you're on a guided trip, then
you don't need water-reading skills, and the only strokes you probably
need to know are forward and backward.  And if you have a raft full of
people who will actually paddle, rather than air-bracing, then it can
be a lot of fun.  You can also tackle water that your solo skills aren't
up to, or that you simply don't want to run alone.  (E.g. R4's on the
Upper/Top Yough, Russell Fork, etc.)

And perhaps most importantly, as someone else pointed out, rafting is a
great way to introduce friends to the idea of wild rivers.  When our group
started rafting all those years ago, the most experience that any of us
had consisted of canoeing on sleepy midwestern streams.  Now there are
5 or 6 kayakers, 5 or 6 OC-2'ers, and some other folks who want to learn.
Many of us are members of American Rivers, AWA, NORS, and other groups,
and we all have a stake in preserving the free-flowing rivers out there
that give us so much enjoyment.

Incidentally, while we've never rolled a raft, we have done some fairly
spectacular enders!
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: miller@lsil.com (Lance Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Canoe carrier
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:46:21 GMT
Reply-To: miller@lsil.com
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

I would appreciate any info I could get on constructing or buying a wheel-based canoe carrier.  I got some info from the alt.fishing group that L.L.Bean carries one, but was informed that its is around 200 dollars.  I would rather build one myself if possible,  if anyone has built one before or maybe knows where I could purchase one a little cheaper I would appreciate it.  Thanx in advance.
	
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com (DQ582 Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: New Corsica
Organization: trunking_fixed
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:41:54 GMT
Summary: Yes, it does turn fast
Keywords: Corsica, fast

>	It turns very fast, regardless of what someone says... it gets into
>	eddies fast! 

I think that someone was me.  Sorry if I gave the impression that the 
Corsica didn't turn well, because it DOES.  Just that I think a Corsica S
turns a little faster, seeing how's it is a bit shorter.

I paddled with a boater on Laurel Creek in N. Carolina last spring.  He
was very successful there in his Corsica.  It caught eddies on that very
technical water really well.  If you are tall, heavy, or both, the Corsica
is a good boat.  

If you weigh in under 160# or are under 6' tall (like me), the Corsica S is
probably going to be a better boat for you.


-- 
Todd Leigh                Motorola Inc.      Opinions expressed here are
toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com    Schaumburg, IL     not those of "THE MANAGEMENT"
Facts all come with point of view. Facts don't do what I want them to.
                                           - Talking Heads
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: M14661@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Want to learn
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1992 13:58:00 GMT

In article <92093.181434BJM123@psuvm.psu.edu>
<BJM123@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
 
>
>I would like to learn how to kayak.  Can anyone tell me ways to learn?
>I live in eastern Pa and am very interested in learning how to kayak.
>
Where in eastern PA do you live?  I see your address passes through PSUVM,
are you also a student at Penn State?  Around Penn State main campus,
contact PSOC (the Penn State Outing Club).  They have an active canoeing and
kayaking program, and some of their members are on the net.
 
For further east, there's the Phila. Canoe Club.  I seem to have misplaced
their number, but you might try information.  I paddled a trip on the Lehigh
with them 2 yrs. ago.  I know they have summer kayak classes on the Schuykill
 (sp?).  There are also clubs in Harrisburg and York that I know of.  Harrisbur
g's in the Harrisburg Canoe Club, York's is the Conewango Canoe Club, or
something like that.  Clubs are the best way to go for someone starting out.
 
See you on the river!
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:10:56 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

Sport is a strange thing.  Le Tour de France makes up rules about
what a bicycle can be, so the world is stuck with uncomfortable
torture machines instead of efficient recumbent designs.  The ACA
specifies that K1s have to have some minimum volume, and gateheads
are saddled with stupid-looking boats with huge warts on each side.
Baseball is the all-American sport, so the rules can't be changed
to make it more watchable or faster-paced.

So I'm wondering.  Why do people use canoes for whitewater?  On 
the face, it seems pretty silly.  The canoe is an excellent craft
for paddling across flatwater.  Its long hull design provides good
tracking and excellent speed.  It holds lots of camping gear, and
is easily portaged.  For chains of lakes nothing is better.

But for whitewater?  Come on.  You have to kneel on a part of the
body that provides no natural cushioning.  This leaves your center
of gravity high, thus reducing stability.  You only get to use a
single-bladed paddle.  The thing is hard to turn, which is a major
disadvantage.  Why not just cut off one hand?  It's unstable and
hard to roll, even when redesigned for whitewater.  It's too long
to use in highly technical rock gardens.  When it wraps around a
rock, your trip is probably over.

So could somebody please tell me why people continue using canoes
in whitewater?  If challenge is the most important reason, why not
just run harder whitewater?  Please do not construe this as a flame;
I am sincerely curious.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: janis@unislc.uucp (Janis Huber)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Reply-To: janis@unislc.UUCP (Janis Huber,B1E05,5392)
Organization: Unisys, Salt Lake City
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 15:31:03 GMT

>
>Kayakers and rafters usually take a different pace, so are best kept
>separate.  But kayakers sometimes need rafters to carry gear, whereas
>rafters never really need kayakers.
-----------------------------------------

On a multiday trip, the best situation is to have both hardboats and
soft boats!!  Although the rafters (that includes oar rigs) will
carry most of the gear, if someone falls out of the raft, it
is usually the kayakers that get to the person first.  Also, if
a raft flips, it is usually the kayakers (or canoeists) that go
downriver to retrieve anything that has floated away.  

In a rescue situation, a diversity of boat types is an advantage.
A canoe, even has advantages to a kayak and a raft in rescue situations
because the paddler's movements are not restricted as in a kayak and yet
can hit those small eddies that a raft can't!

This discussion of which is better is getting a little old.  The 
selection of which type of boat (hard or soft) is a completely
individual choice.  The type of whitewater you prefer (big water
or small technical rivers) is an individual choice.  


One kayakers's opinion.
						Janis
From: keese@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (William O Keese)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:30:53 GMT
Organization: U.C. Davis - Microwave Lab


         I Completely agree that rolling is much wiser than swimming
	 especially in class IV whitewater.
	 However, when my friend attempted to catch the eddy on river
	 left just above the main drop at Bogus Thunder on Sunday, It
	 actually turned out better for her.

	 She had bonked a rock entering the eddy and flipped. When she
	 tried to roll, she was stuck on the eddy fence and couldn't 
	 roll up. She probably had time for one more roll attempt, but
	 in choosing to swim she was able to swim into the eddy very 
	 easily and avoid grinding her face. Granted if there hadn't
	 of been a nice big pool below, who knows where her boat would
	 have ended up. Just call her lucky I guess.

	 P.S.  I am an avid raft Guide and kayaker and believe there is
	       room for both in this world.
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:25:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

lee@wang.com (Lee Story) asks:
> 
> What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
> anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.

I agree with you.  Years ago I tried a Dancer, but have such long legs
that it made me feel extremely claustrophobic.  So I took up rafting.
Now I prefer boating with inflatable kayaks or body boards, but there
are four cases when a raft comes in handy:

1. Camping out of the boat.  Some western rivers are many days long,
   and it's hard to carry sufficient gear in a kayak.  Some rivers
   (such as the Tuolumne) can be run in a day, but nonetheless offer
   superlative camping.

2. Taking your family (or sexual partner) down a river they might not
   be technically competent or brave enough to kayak.

3. Introducing a group of friends or paying customers to the joys
   of free-flowing rivers, so they will be motivated to write their
   elected representatives demanding river protection.

4. Plowing down class V runs that I'd be scared to run in a tiny boat.

Kayakers and rafters usually take a different pace, so are best kept
separate.  But kayakers sometimes need rafters to carry gear, whereas
rafters never really need kayakers.

chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster) writes:
>
> For multi-day trips rafts are great.  However falling out of a raft
> in Cherry Creek or Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.

Then again, neither is trying to roll your kayak above a narrow chute
or big drop.  Sunday on the N Fork American, I saw a kayaker turn over
in Bogus Thunder.  She wisely chose to swim, rather than scrape her
head thru a strainer drop.  She easily made it to shore and walked down
to pick up her boat.  Rolling is nice in theory, but...
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Canoe Club Openhouse, April 10
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: ont
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:12:22 GMT


                      Canoe Club Openhouse
                        April 10, 7:30pm
                           Downtown Y

Discover the beauty and splendour of the outdoors with the Ottawa Y Canoe
Camping Club.  An extensive program of flat and white water trips ranging
from a day to a week or more, is offered from early May to late September.
Destinations include Algonquin Park, the Gatineau, the Ottawa River and
Laverendrye Park.  A family program provides club members with the 
opportunity to take their children on canoe trips.
 
Club Trips

All club trips are run on a co-operative basis, with everyone having the
opportunity to help plan and carry them out.  The club supplies most of the
group equipment for club trips -- canoes, tents, cooking utensils, etc. -- at
a cost of approximately half of what a commercial outfitter would charge.  All
you need to bring is your personal gear -- clothing, pack, sleeping bag, paddle
and personal flotation device.  Food costs, transportation costs and other
miscellaneous trip expenses are shared by the participants.
 
Training

If you have never canoed or camped before, do not dispair!  Early in the
season, both flatwater and white water training sessions will be offered.
There will also be lots of opportunities to learn basic camping skills.
 
Membership

The only requirements for joining are an interest in canoeing, being 18
years of age or older, and payment of the membership fee of $37 plus GST.

Additional Information

For more information on the club attend the Openhouse or contact
one of the following members of the club executive:

President               Judy Patterson       232-2236
Whitewater Coordinator  Phil Green           225-2605
Flatwater Coordinator   Don Haines           820-9245
Family Coordinator      Leigh Stewart        729-1841
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"My Canada includes Quebec"
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:02:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Snake River
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

As the previous post mentions, the Snake is long...

Hell's Canyon is about 33 miles; everybody I know does it in two days (with
the 2nd day sometimes being a jetboat ride back to the put in). Wild Sheep
and Granite are class IV, maybe a couple of other IV's also depending on
level.

If there's water in it, the Murtaugh reach above Twin Falls is possibly (probably) the best whitewater on the Snake, lots of class IV, one V. Sadly, it has
not had sizeable water since 1986 and probably won't have much this year, though
kayakers run it down to about 900cfs. Good rafting starts about 8000 cfs (yeah,
I know that's a huge difference from 900). This reach is almost completely
dewatered by irrigation diversions, which release about 6 (six point zero) cfs
into the river bed for most of the season. A crime and a shame.

The Hagerman reach is pleasant at class II-II+, and Birds of Prey south of BOise
is class II max. These reaches have more reliable flows.

Check out Grant Amaral's book on Idaho whitewater for more info.

cheers,
scott smay
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Northeast Wildwater Series
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:12:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.72946
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

There are three races left in this series; here are some details
and contact information.

Each event is 3 to 6 miles, and is for closed boats only (except for
the Schroon River race, which will allow open boats).  Competitors
must be ACA members; participation memberships on a one-time basis
cost $5, or you can join for the year for $25.  Race fees are set
by the local organizers; full-time students race *free* (except for
ACA membership as noted above).

Contact person for overall series: Mary Hawkes, 9 Valley St.,
Concord NH 03301; (603) 225-9319

4/11/92, 10:30 AM: Mascoma River, Enfield, NH, class II-III on
narrow run.  Excelsior Rapid can be scouted from shore near take-out.
About 3 miles.  Sponsor: Ledyard Canoe Club, (603) 643-6709.
Slalom race on 4/12/92 w/meeting at 9:30 AM.

4/26/92, 11 AM: Millers River, Millers Falls, MA, class II with one class
III drop.  About 4 miles.  Race director: Jill Runnion (203) 824-5899.

5/9/92, 12 noon: Schroon River, near North Creek, NY: Class II-III with
one drop that should be scouted.  About 4 miles.  Race director: Bob
Underwood, (518) 793-6837.
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: damouth@wrc.xerox.com (David E. Damouth)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Older people and whitewater: was No Defense of Motors, was Whitewater Ra
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:25:45 GMT
Reply-To: damouth@wrc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Webster Research Center

Older people aren't even limited to oar rafts (ie tour busses). The Grand
Canyon Dories trip I took had a number of people in their 70's, one
with quite limited mobility. They got along just fine.  The smaller and
more personalized trip (four passengers and a boatman in each Dory) and
leisurely schedule (21 days - with short days leaving lots of time for
exploring side canyons on foot) probably made it easier for them. It's
not uncommon for one dory to stop to examine something on shore or
attend to personal needs.  The only time it was important to stay in
sight of the other boats was in serious white water - which is a fairly
short period each day.
  
---
/Dave
David E. Damouth
Xerox Webster Research Center
damouth@wrc.xerox.com
x
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle