From: dcg@mogun.UUCP (David Gunsul)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ethanol blended gasoline
Summary: NOT!!!
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:57:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: mogun.214
Organization: Hotrods `R' Us, Montgomery, IL

In article <1992Nov10.152743.8696@infonode.ingr.com>, greg@cherokee.b23b.ingr.com (Greg Moritz) writes:
> walkerr@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Robert A Walker) writes:
>   
>   
> dcg@mogun.UUCP (David Gunsul)  of Hotrods `R' Us writes :
> 
> DG> That's a far cry from the eco-nazis BS that's been used to scare
> DG> everyone into believing that cars are evil.
> 
> If your figures were true, yes.

My figures are from the National Muscle Car Association's Muscle
Monthly publication under our "Save the Animals" section.

Where are YOUR facts from?
AS A matter of fact where are your facts PERIOD?



>  People who like cars need to be able
> to admit to the damage they do, so that they don't end up looking like
> eco-nazi fanatics.

Excuse me but, why in the hell would a car nut want to look like
one of YOU eco-nazis?

And just what damage are we terrible car lovers doing?
Oh let me guess, we "car people" are pissing you eco-nazis because we 
are having a good time with our cars and as we all know eco-nazis
don't want anyone to have any fun with there money.

I hate to break it to all of you eco-nazis but THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!!!!
So go out and join the rest of the world and GET A LIFE!


> DG> That's a really nice way to say: that's a nice hotrod you've got there
> DG> to bad you can't have it anymore but don't worry here's $500.00 for 
> DG> your pride and joy.
> 
> Hotrodders should fight efforts to remove well-maintained older vehicles 
> from the road.

That's what I'm trying to do.


> However, even hotrodders should be able to see the benefit
> to removing older vehicles that are just barely making it.

Once again I will say (hopefully for the last time) I never have
said ANYTHING about keeping smoking "barely making it" cars on the
road.
What I'm trying to get across is, I don't want these programs that are 
ridding the road of these "smokers" to suck in the hotrod/restorer cars
as well.



> If the older vehicles are scrapped, but not crushed and melted, they could
> provide a supply of important parts to people looking to keep up an older
> vehicle.

AHH, now we're talking, only problem is, the people that are enacting
these programs are NOT taking the cars apart and selling there individual
parts they ARE making these cars into BLOCKS.


> Paranoia doesn't help anybody.  These programs to buy up older cars, as
> far as I've seen have been strictly voluntary.  As soon as they try to
> become mandatory, then you will have a case - and large numbers of 
> supporters.   If events lead to mandatory confiscation of older cars, then

First of all: The people that take these cars in don't know how valuable
some of them are.
I saw a video from CA. that showed an old Cuda being CRUSHED because 
the guy who owned it had no idea what it was worth to some Mopar lover
that would have bought and restored it.

The point of this is: when people start crushing all these old cars
there won't be anywhere for restorers/Hotrodders to get parts for their
pride and joy except for aftermarket businesses, who will jack up the
prices a lot because there won't be anywhere for car owners to turn to.


Second: Car lovers are not the people that are paranoid, it's the
eco-nazis who seem to think the sky is falling.

BTW This cause does have a LOT of supporters.



> I'm confident that it would be possible to get the older cars cleaned
> up rather than to confiscate them.

What about the restorers that want to keep their cars absolutely stock?


> In a previous article, walkerr@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Robert A Walker) says:
>   
> 
> DG> BZZZZT!!! Did you know that in the states that these "clunker" bills
> DG> have been enacted that some of these companies collect (so called)
> DG> clunkers and when the companies turn these cars in these same wonderful
> DG> companies get some kind of permit that enables them to pollute MORE.
> 
> So you would rather let the factories close (or downsize) and lay off all 
> (or some) of their workers rather than put any restrictions on older cars?

They don't have to lay off anyone all they have to do is install those
"scrubbers" in their smoke stacks.


> DG> Now would someone please tell me how this is helping the environment?
> 
> Glad to.  The way it works is that if a factory is putting out 100,000 units
> of pollutants into the air, but the EPA says that they are only allowed to
> put 80,000 units into the air, the factory has two choices:
> 
>     (2) Reduce pollution from another source.  This source could be old
>         cars that put out more pollution than new cars.  The factory
>         can buy up cars that put out those 20,000 units annually.  The
>         amount of cars would be determined by some formula that takes
>         into account the amount of pollution that the old car puts out
>         in excess of the standard for the current year and the average
>         amount that it is driven, etc.  

NO no no, you don't seem to understand.
When the factories turn in these cars they are allowed to pollute more
than they were BEFORE.


> From the standpoint of the city at large - the results are the same.
> Pollution goes down by 20,000 units.  Eco-nazis are happy.  (*)   Factory
> workers still have their jobs.  Hotrodders have a bunch of new automobiles
> at the junk yard to scrounge.  The junkyard has a bunch of new inventory.

BZZZZT!!! Factories pollute more than the cars and they were polluting
before so in effect pollution has risen, Hotrodders lose a valuable
source for parts, and junk yards have a lot of little squares sitting around
waiting to be melted down (which makes more pollution by the way) to
make new cars.


> sborders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Scott Borders) writes:
>   
> SB> In my opinion, we should 
> SB> concentrate first on fixing/removing those autos that pollute the most.
> 
> DG> Well in my opinion, I think we should get rid of every polluting 
> DG> big mouth that wants to remove all of the *fun* cars  from the road.
> 
> In my opinion, we should try to avoid looking like fanatic eco-nazis.
> Scott said fixing/removing - this implies that he is flexible.  You don't
>            ^^^^^^
> appear to have any flexibility in this matter.

I am flexibleso I have to fight as hard as I can.


> (*) Keeping in mind that eco-nazis are *never* really happy.  They'll
>     just be a little more quite.

Now here's something that we actually agree on. :^)
                      
                                          
                     
                     |                    
                     | David Gunsul       
                     | dcg@mogun.uucp      
                     |------------------------------------------------
                     |  It's amazing what $2,500 worth of big block
                     |  will do to $60,000 worth of high technology.