From: partha@mse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Arranged Marriages...
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:45:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.36080
Distribution: na
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering

>venugop@athena.cs.uga.edu (Gopakumar Venugopalan) writes:

>       Why do we have double standards for males and females when it comes
>       to sex and marriage ?

This is true in any male-dominated society. But the existence of double
standards seems to come from both sexes. A woman suffers a lot from it
until she becomes a mother-in-law. Then she suddenly forgets all that
she's gone through. Her suffering in life seems to be the worst in her
view and sees that her daughter-in-law has a much better deal than herself
but is not smart enough to realize it. ("In our days we had to grind flour
in stone grinders at 3 in the morning. Now these girls have mixies and don't
get up early enough. Still they complain" type view point from a typical
mother-in-law). My opinion is that men can't be blamed entirely for all the 
evils in our societies. Women have contributed to their downtrodden state to a 
major extent too. One woman will go to any extent to see to that the
woman she doesn't like suffers - that means even losing her freedom
or having to play a submissive role. Sure there are exceptions to this.
But forgive me. This view is from my life's experience. Our society has
an interdependent structure, unlike an idividualistic structure of many
western nations. Joint family brings in internal frictions between those
who stay at home which is mostly women. Women, being a lot more sensitive
and emotional than men on an average, tend to get into a lot more of friction
than men. When they look at horoscopes for marriages, they should indeed
look for matching between mothers-in-law and brides.  Any woman will seldom
accept the drawbacks of her son. It is universal. No matter how cruel her
son is, to her he is the best boy in the whole world. Any problems with her
son, has to come only from the newly arrived bride, as far as she is concerned.
A son, unlike a dominating husband, will listen to mom. At least a leverage
and power that she longs for in her life is now there in the position of
a mother-in-law. No woman would want to give that up. The gist of this
paragraph is that don't blame men alone. Women have contributed to a large
extent for their current status. If one woman learns to understand another
woman's condition better and comes forward to contribute to the upliftment
of all women's societal standards, then women will be better off. Blaming
men for all evils gives a convinient and common front. But that will not
solve the problem.

It is easy to complain; but very difficult to accept our limitations and
find ways of rectifying them. 

Do not take this as an anti-women view. Positive and constructive criticism
feel bitter sometimes. I have sisters too.

No matter what a father does, it is the mother who brings up her child.
Most values that are embedded in a man's outlook have come from what his
mother taught him in his tender years. Sure, every woman can start right
from that stage to sow the seeds of fairness and compassion for women
in every boy. But that's not what I've seen. May be I haven't seen enough.

>       Can we contemplate of subjecting our sisters through the agony and 
>       tension of an arranged match search or describe her as slim tall
>       sexy busty etc?

You are right. It does irritate when our own sisters are looked at by other
men like a piece of meat. But how many sisters and mothers would accept
a girl who is not "fair, tall and matching to the boy"? Being fair skinned
seems an obsession among women more than in men. 

>       how best can a male descrbe himself on the marriage market assuming
>       a woman is looking for a spouse?

I went through this before I got married. Don't want to write everything from
my personal life here. But I got treated like trash too, by many girls
whose alliances came up. I described about myself as a man who seeks a partner
with such and such values and tastes.  Every woman, no matter how well she's
off, wants only a well settled man - at least from my experience. Marrying
someone who is not fully settled with a green card or US citizenship
with at least a 45K job, seemed to sound terrible for some of them. When it
comes to choosing a partner, especially through an arranged marriage system,
people have to take a lot of risk. From that point of view I understand
why women or men are hesitant to give a nod right away.

>       Let us do it this way ,in a personality developement class of mine
>       6 years ago we were asked to write about ourselves or rather
>       what our friends would write about us if we wre to die the next day?
>       can a groom subject himself to this test honestly instead of asking
>       friends and relatives writing euphemisms about the groom?
>       Will you a handsome young professional with $60000 plus marry a 
>       rape victim(a victim of the sick male mind),an ugly short dark girl
>       or whatever the MCPs chose to call such an unfortunate girl,a cripple
>       or a divorcee?

This question can be put to both males and females. Will a woman marry 
someone just like that? Especially the independent woman type? Marriage
is a serious matter. One doesn't have much time or chance to know his or
her partner. In that situation, what else could one do? Kindly do not
take this as a justification for male dominated arranged marriage system?
It is easy to ask questions than face them. When people face reality, they
back off and play it safe by going back to traditional methods. I wish we
had a better system of finding life partners. Until we get there, we have
to keep working on finding ways to groom the future generations for a better
outlook.

>       If a girl asks you questions like whether you have had pre-marital
>       sex drink or smoke ,gamble or womanize can you answer her with a
>       straight face?

I did. I also told the girls I met that what they did before a marital
commitment is none of my business and I only expected a serious and 
devoted commitment to me after marriage. I promised them the same. Sure,
there are lots of men now who are willing to face these situations. Indian
society has a tremendous inertia in accapting new things. It takes time.
But we should see to that we also don't succumb to the evil aspects of
our society. Arranged marriage per se, needn't be a evil, as far as I am
concerned. It is the way two people live, adjusting to each other after
marriage, that counts. Whether one knows his or her partner well enough
before marriage doesn't help much. The nature of the two really matters.
If they are intelligent enough to have an understanding of each other,
then life like a paradise. Or else, it is a garbage dump. 

>       Would you marry a woman older than you?

I know of many friends who have. As long as the two like each other why not?
1400 years ago Muhammad married an older woman, in an extremely male dominated
Arab society. They made a wonderful couple until she died.

>       A foriegn national who is say an eskimo or a sudanese or a vietnamese?

Love is blind brother. If love clicks, then it doesn't see the cultural,
racial or ethnic differences. It is an extreme of emotion. 

>       Would you give her the option of when to have sex and when not to
>       without labeling her as frigid or a nymphomaniac?

You can't enjoy sex with a woman unless she participates in it willfully.
Unless one is a sadist who rapes. So if your woman doesn't feel like
it, you just have to give in. Calling a woman frigid or nymphomaniac
in this context seems too generalized to me. I don't think most educated
men do that.

>       Would you give her equal right in deciding whether to keep themarriage 
>       or not?
>       would you treat the marriage as a contract or a sacrament?

If your partner doesn't enjoy the marriage, then you are better of letting
her go. If both don't have an involvement, then it is a disaster. Who wants
to be unhappy? Marriage is not exactly a contract in my opinion. It involves
love and affection and a sense of togetherness. That you can't demand in
a contract. It has to come on its own. Both a man and a woman has to work
towards it. Love doesn't come at first sight. That is lust. Real love grows
over a period of time. When it fully grows, both the man and the woman
feels that he or she can't do without the other. That can't be guaranteed
in the form of a contract. Marriage should be treated with utmost care and as
a sacred thing. If people concentrate less on marriage rituals, anniversary
celebrations etc and more on real life, then that is the secret behind the
success. 

>		Do you consider the girl bleeding as a proof of virginity?

I guess most of the educated men don't. I can only speak for myself. My
answer is no.

>		If your wife does not reach an orgasm( which is a bodily or
>		physical want) will you care to find out why or see to it 
>		that both the partners benefit from the marriage?

Too personal.  Will a woman live with an impotent man if she has a choice?
These questions should be addressed to both sexes.

>
>
                                         gopa-

>
Not all men are evil and not all women are angels. It is better to look
carefully into the loopholes of our society and try to do things in a better
way as much as we can.  Choosing a partner should not be equated with buying
a car. It is a lot more serious than that. I am sure most Indians living
in western societies have given these aspects a thought and done as best
as they can. It is definitely wonderful if two people with matching views
and interest come across each other and end up marrying. But that probability
is rare in our contemporary society. So, as of now we seem to have no better
choice than going through arranged marriage system. But let us promise
ourselves that our children will have more freedom than we had.

Partha sarathy


NB: My humble opinions. Flames won't burn me.