From: jnsims01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: FAQ ANSWER! LC with VGA Monitors Info 
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:57:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr2.120905.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> I wrote:

>I know its an FAQ but i didn't need to know until *today*...
>
>My dad has decided to trade up from his trusty MacPlus to an LC II. As I read
>the info, I have two monitor options from Apple: the 12" monitor and the
>overpriced high-res 13" monitor. Surely I have some other options, don't I?
>The 12" seems grainy and the pixels very coarse; the 13" is much better but
>pricey. The issue here is not primarily screen size (number of pixels), but I'd
>love to be able to get him something with 640x480 that didn't cost so much.
>
>Before you get to the monitor issue, however, I need a reality check...
>Am I correct in my understanding that he'll need the 512K VRAM to use 256
>colors with the higher res monitor, but that he will have 256 colors without
>VRAM on the 12" monitor? Now back to the monitor issue...
>
>Is there a reliable low-priced solution? I hear rumblings of connecting VGA
>monitors to the LC with a special cable: which monitors work and where does the
>cable come from?

I got a number of answers, about half of which were of the 'please summarize
whatever you hear', so here's what I got. Thanks very much to all who took time
to reply: I never cease to be thankful for the collective 1) knowledge and 
2) good will of the net-folks.

****************************************

From:	sakelley@euclid.ucsd.edu

This "cheap monitors for the LC" is a perennial question for
me too. I STILL don't know much about using a VGA monitor
on the LC, but I did find one useful chunk of information
somewhere (the info-mac digest, I think). Here's a copy of it:

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1992 18:27:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jared M. Oberhaus" <jo0e+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: VGA with LC II (Q)

Concerning using a VGA monitor with the LC, I don't really think this is
an advantage unless you already own a VGA monitor. In many cases the
quality of a VGA monitor, especially in terms of color, is much poorer
than monitors sold for the Macintosh. Quite honestly, if I could put up
with the gaudy tacky color scheme of Windows, I wouldn't mind what kind
of color quality my monitor exhibited.

Anyhow, the best buy in this area IMHO (if you have the money) is
Apple's 13" RGB or any Sony Trinitron monitor. The sharpness is near
perfect, and colors a deep rich hue. The case matches nicely, too. But
the minimum price on one of these is about $600. By the way, the place I
mention below sells a Sony Trinitron for $498, but it only works on an
LC which leads me to suspect that it's interlaced... keep reading!

A really good bargain is to get one of those monitors with a GoldStar
tube. Mirror Technologies sells one with their label on it for $399 plus
about $20-30 shipping. You can use your credit card! There's also a
place a place in the back of MacWeek or MacUser or MacWorld called
MacDirect that sells the exact same monitor with a GoldStar label for
$368 plus shipping. Either way, it's a really good deal.

My friend bought a Mirror 14" monitor (the GoldStar tube one) for his LC
and it looks great. The text is just as sharp and readable as Apple's,
and as a matter of fact, the white on this monitor is white; the white
on Apple's monitor is real light blue... look at it sometime! The reason
for this is that the colors on the Apple monitor are really rich, while
the GoldStar tube's colors aren't quite so. The point is, the quality of
the monitor isn't better than Apple's and it isn't worse; it's just
slightly different.

This MacDirect place also sells a monitor with the same resolution for
$298, but I haven't seen one yet and would suspect that since it only
works with an LC, it's interlaced or has a slower refresh rate. The LC
is the only stock Macintosh that is capable of interlaced video output.
That's so it will work with Apple's IIe emulator; the IIe had interlaced
output. This is easier to engineer, but use a monitor with either a slow
refresh rate or one that's interlaced (or both!) for more than 10
minutes and my eyes would explode. I'm not saying that that's the
problem with this one, but probably so; be careful.

This brings me to the point about Apple's 12" RGB... Don't buy it! The
resolution on the 13" RGB is 640x480, while the resolution on the 12" is
512x384. Compare this to the 9" (Mac Plus/SE/Classic) screen resolution
of 512x348. The pixels are a lot bigger! And not only that, but I find
the monitor itself to be really annoying. The refresh rate is really
slow, and it's definitely capable of interlaced video (which is why it's
the only monitor Apple sells that works with its IIe emulator card). I'm
not sure, but it's a distinct possibility that when it's hooked up to an
LC, it only displays in interlaced mode.

Just a technical note to keep in mind when shopping for monitors...
When I say a monitor is interlaced, that means that the monitor paints
every other line on the screen, then goes back and paints in the
remaining lines in between. This is how most televisions work. It
doesn't cause a problem in that case, but when you're displaying sharp
lines, like what's called for in the Macintosh environment, you get an
annoying flicker effect. Uncool.

The refresh rate of a monitor means how many times a second it paints
the full picture on the screen. A good monitor should have a 72 or 75 Hz
refresh rate for a 14" screen. Anything around 60 or under for a
Macintosh monitor (sharp graphics) is bad news. I wouldn't put up with
it. Apple's 13" monitor and the GoldStar monitor both refresh at either
72 or 75 Hz (I forget which!)

When Apple refers to their monitor being a 13" monitor, the Sony
Trinitron tube is really 14". Apple is referring to the displayable area
inside the screen, which is 13". This displayable area is at a
resolution of 640x480, 67 dpi. The same is true of other 14" monitors
like the GoldStar. It's NOT a bigger monitor. They are the same size and
have the same number of pixels.

So... what should you do? I'd buy the GoldStar monitor from MacDirect.
It's the cheapest place to get the best quality monitor for a reasonable
price. You can use or credit card here, too! A don't forget to tell them
you're using it on an LC! You do need a special plug...

****************************************

From:	ostroff@oswego.Oswego.EDU

Color is great (we just got a Quadra 900 and Apple 16" color at work), but
at home I got an Apple 12" monochrome with my IIcx a few years ago.  I really
like it, and I just couldn't afford the color at the time.  It gives you
640 x 480 with 256 shades of grey.  Not as sexy as color, but it only cost
$200. In fact, with the MaxAppleZoom cdev I get 704 x 512 (you need an
Apple video card for this, however so it won't work on an LC).

>Am I correct in my understanding that he'll need the 512K VRAM to use 256
>colors with the higher res monitor, but that he will have 256 colors without
>VRAM on the 12" monitor?

Correct

>Is there a reliable low-priced solution? I hear rumblings of connecting VGA
>monitors to the LC with a special cable: which monitors work and where does 
>the cable come from?

Take a look at the quality before you leap.  The price is closely related to
the resolution...

****************************************

From:	JSR112@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

I am confused too...i know someone who has a Panasync VGA type monitor
connected to his LC and it looks great at about $340 it was a good deal...
he bought the adapter from a computer store for $48 (oucH) but a lot less than
the rip-off 13" from apple...oh well i am not exactly sure what works...might
want to try the dealers/vendors.

****************************************

From:	poncelet_gene@mailgateway.bmd.trw.com

I bought an LC about 6 months ago and at that time local Mac dealers were
woefully ignorant re using non-Apple monitors with the LC.  They may still be. 
I relied primarily on info from the net.  The key word is multisync; if it's a
multisync monitor, then I believe that the LC can drive it with the proper
cable.  The mail order people can answer all your questions without hesitation.

I bought the cheapest 14" color monitor that Mac Direct (1-800-621-8462) had to
offer at the time for about $390 plus $40 shipping (they sell the necessary
cable for $12).  They now have one advertised for $298.  I am completely
satisfied.  My monitor has controls on the front to adjust the height and width
and I can adjust it so that it shows things at actual size or slightly larger
if I want.  Since it displays 640X480 it has much more real estate than the
Apple 12" which is nice for things such as spreadsheets but also lets several
games be played that wouldn't work on the Apple 12".

When the LC drives a 640X480 monitor it needs the 512k Vram in order to display
256 colors.  It works with the smaller Vram but will only show 16 colors.  I
think that 256 colors is necessary AND sufficient.  More than 256 may be needed
for high end graphics work which I don't do but I have never felt a need for
more colors, and less seems to be clunky in such applications as games.  Using
the built in video of the LC, 256 colors on a 640X480 monitor is the max
possible, on the 12" monitor with the 512k Vram "millions" of colors can be
displayed.  I have used a 512k Vram equipped LC driving a 12" Apple monitor
displaying "millions" of colors and am still more than satisfied with my el
cheapo mail order monitor.

Another mod that Apple won't tell you about is that the LC can drive two
floppies even though it doesn't have an external drive plug like the Plus had. 
I had an old external 800k drive that wasn't being used and wondered if the LC
could drive it as well as the built in 1.4M drive and HD.  I fashioned a 20
conductor ribbon cable and plugged it into the extra socket on the mother board
and now I have a 2 floppy/HD system.

Be a maverick and save some money.  Good luck.

****************************************

From:	geh@mda.ca

You've probably already gotten something like this, but here goes.  This message
came by recently.

From: amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen)

I dug up this article, IT references an earlier article, which I haven't
located.  Anybody have a Reference  (year, month, page) ???  After the
article, I ramble on a bit about recent monitor models, prices, and a
summary of my (non Mac monitor) experiences.
 
>From THE COMPUTER SHOPPER magazine, October 1991, Page 730
>Tech Section,  Ask the Guru,  The Mac LC Picks up Steam, by
>Don Lancaster.  Reproduced & Edited withOUT permission.
 
   After initial sluggishness, the Mac LC now seems to be selling quite
well, and third parties are taking care of several obvious shortcomings.
For instance, low-cost math coprocessors that pump up Excel and speed math
calculations are available from Quantum Leap Systems, as are the Crunch It
from PSI, QuickMath/LC from Novy Systems, and the Apex by Second Wave Inc.
 
> (other Mac LC info, removed for brevity)
 
   The Mac LC in intended for use with a horizontal scan rate near 35 Khz, 
or over double that of the IIGS or standard television-monitor scan rates of
15.735 Khz.  Thus, Apple IIGS monitors and most TV color monitor/receivers
don't work with a Lac LC.  Don't even think of trying it.
   Sure the DB-15 connectors are the same size on older IIGS color monitors 
and newer Mac LC monitors, but neither pinouts nor scan rates are the same.
   On the other hand, genuine Apple-brand color monitors can be very expensive
and are seldom discounted.  Fortunately, as mentioned in COMPUTER SHOPPER
before, the LC can drive most popular VGA color monitors now available at 
bargin prices.  Figure 1 depicts the simple adapter cable required to connect
an LC to a VGA-type monitor.
   Note the jumper between pins 7 and 10 at the Mac LC end.  This is needed
to activate an internal VGA mode in the LC.
  Usually, it is best to make up a short adapter and attach it to a regular
cable, rather than building up an entire special cable.  Since the quality
VGA monitors vary all over the lot, be certain to look at real LC output on 
the monitor you're considering before you lay out any cash.
 
        Mac LC Video             VGA Monitor Video
        DB - 15 male             VGA male (usually High Density DB15 {HD15})
                              (Check your manual for pinout variations & type)
 
Pin #              2  ---------  1     RED
                   1  ---------  6     Red Ground
                   9  ---------  3     BLUE
                  13  ---------  8     Blue Ground
                   5  ---------  2     GREEN
                   6  ---------  7     Green Ground
                  15  ---------  13    Horizontal Sync.
                  14  ---------  10    H. Sync. Ground
                  12  ---------  14    Vertical Sync.
                  11  ---------  4     V. Sync. Ground
                  10  -| _
                   7  -|  \
                           \ Jumper
 
 
   ...(other DTP/Postscript info, removed for brevity and subject matter)...
 
> (end of quoted text)

   It is my understanding that the Mac LC, autosenses the type of attached
monitor (when the monitor is turned on, kinda).  On mine, it does 'lose'
color, if the monitor is NOT turned on, with the system.  The jumper indicated
is probably specific to COLOR VGA monitors, and not applicable, if a Mono/grey
scale VGA monitor is desired.  A different jumper is probably available for
this possibility, but I'm not going to reverse engineer it 8-}.  (I have a 
Apple Monitor).
   In making VGA adapter cables (for IBM's), and extension cables.  I would
warn that the typical VGA style High Density DB type connector is difficult 
to locate as a raw part, from local sources.  Try to plan ahead to find a
source for you.  I prefer, when available to use the sometimes available
standard DB 9, Monitor connector.  I also have been astounded by the variation
of pinouts of monitors FOR IBM VGA's, that do NOT have an attached cable.
Don't assume that the supplied (or not) cable, is a straight through cable.
   Due to 'local' considerations, I typically receive the cheapest available
equipment (low bid).  I have lots of different, clone monitors.  I have NEVER
had a 'el-cheapo' monochrome or CGA color monitor fail.  I also have developed
very bad experiences with 'el-cheapo' EGA & VGA monitors.  It doesn't seem to
help if the system is running 24 hrs a day, or 3.  I also have some quite
expensive EGA/VGA monitors, and have never had a failure of those.  It is
my _THEORY_ that for Home Use, with limited hours, cooler temps, cleaner power,
AND ESPECIALLY, religious use of a dust cover over the entire monitor when
not in use, that 'el-cheapo' VGA monitors _MAY_ provide cost effective MTBF.
It also has been my experience, that these monitors fail repeatedly, time after
time after time. Check your warranty carefully, and think about it.  I seem 
to have had the worst luck with Samtron, Samsung, & some other SAM-thing,
medium luck with GoldStar, & best luck with Hyundai & Tatung.  Any of these
mfg's may have gotten better or worse, I don't know.  I've been in a Hyundai
'phase' as of late.
   It probably will be impossible to try yours out on a LC, before buying it.
Therefore, I'll make my recommendations a little more specific.  I understand
that the LC output, is on par with the standard IBM/Microsoft Windows display
at 800 x 600 or so.  This implies that a real Super VGA (1024 x 768) comparison
won't be fair, and have added expense.  However, underdriving a Cheap Super VGA
monitor may help provide better long term reliability. 
   Personally, I wouldn't consider a monitor with a DOT PITCH Greater than
.31.  I'd prefer the slightly better .28 if affordable enough.
 
Now, the moment you were all waiting for... The monitor list...
1. SWAN 1024 VGA Monitor, 15" .31mm (another place it says .28, so...).   $ 400
   Reported to be a Sony Tube, by USENET, & a 2 year warranty
2. Aamazing Technologies 1024x768, .28 & text switches                    $ 350
3. Hyundai HCM-421E
4. Goldstar 1468
5. Panasonic C1381
6. TaTung 1498X
7. Wyse/Amdek  AM/738T
8. Samsung 4587
 
All of these monitors are in the June Computer Shopper Magazine, in the
$350 to $400 price range.  All should be either .28 or .31, & should be
Super VGA (1024 x 768) capable, and also suitable with the LC as a low cost
option.  I want to stress, that _NEITHER_ I _OR_ ANYBODY I KNOW, has used
ANY of these (or any other non-apple) monitor with a LC.  I use the Hyundai 
HCM-421E on a regular basis.  I hear a lot a IBM type people complaining 
about it, but they usually follow up with a comparison to a monitor that 
costs a lot more.  I hear that since a QC problem last spring/summer at SWAN,
that it is quite a good monitor.  I have also seen Aamazing get very good 
reviews in several magazines.
{Editing final comments.  I just looked over the January computer shopper.
.28-.31mm D.P. Color, 14" VGA monitor prices have continued to slide down.
In Quantity one, I see them as low as $275.  I also see a couple new cheap
MFG's, as well a a couple adds for used/reconditioned Zenith Flat Screen
monitors & used/reconditioned IBM 8514/a monitors, both beautiful models.}