HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: RENAME: Those against name change PLEASE READ!
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<97267@netnews.upenn.edu> <1992Nov14.012953.1615@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:25:41 GMT

Rich> == rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:,
Dave> == Dave Hayes <dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> 

 Dave> Followup-To: rec.music.makers.synth

Cute, Dave.  Very cute.  NOT.

 Rich> A lot of your fellow network readers feel that the new name is
 Rich> more appropriate (they voted for it); some of them feel that it
 Rich> is not (they voted against it).

 Dave> Unfounded...however you can say that "a lot of your fellow
 Dave> network readers that keep up with news.groups...".

Unfounded back at you, unless you've coordinated arbitron data for
news.groups with the sites of the voters, or something.  "network
readers" covers the entire network; obviously they saw the CFV
*somewhere*, whether it be in news.announce.newgroups, rec.music.synth,
or rec.arts.startrek.armadillo.buggerers.manga.urdu.aquaria.
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:20283 rec.music.synth:17719
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 1992 18:32:09 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov5.160823.2450@vicorp.com> <Bx96HD.5rF@unix.amherst.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu's message of Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:12:48 GMT

In article <Bx96HD.5rF@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

   Discussion of new groups and group reorganizations goes on in
   news.groups.  RFDs and CFVs proposing the change are crossposted to
   the groups that they affect.

Has anybody yet dug up a copy of the CFV(s) to show whether they were
indeed xposted to r.m.s?  If they weren't, I'd agree that there's
some cause for alarm.  If they were, everything else I've seen seems
above reproach.  But I think it's still up to Dave to show that the
crossposts weren't correct, since he's challenging the vote.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Xref: sparky news.groups:21521 comp.ai.neural-nets:4258
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.ai.neural-nets
Subject: RE: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
From: zorat@cs.unitn.it  (Alessandro Zorat)
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:16:22
Organization: /home/users/zorat/.organization

I must have missed the RFD posting, so I don't know exactly where my
vote ought to be sent to.
In any event, I vote YES to the creation of a group for discussion on
fuzzy related issues.
I would prefer that it would end up in a group as comp.fuzzy rather
than comp.ai.fuzzy, but this is a mild preference.
--


				Alessandro Zorat
			   (zorat@cs.unitn.it)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: Elliott.Wong@launchpad.unc.edu (Elliott Wong)
Subject: RFD rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:03:56 GMT

	Well, I've been following the call for discussion concerning this
proposed news group and I must concur with Joshua Randall and Tim Dunn
who have pointed out that it would be expensive to do.

	I have been a (silent) reader of rec.games.frp since before the
split and I have been a contributor to the Fidonet AD&D echo that 
cbnorman has been a moderator over.

	While it is true that some of the game posts in Fido AD&D are
exceptionally well-written and fun to follow, most of them are pedestrian
and I have filtered out most of the game messages on the Fido echo. I
represent at least some anecdotal evidence that the proposed .campaign
newsgroup would have low readership. I'm not a player, I'm not in the
party, and I'm not the gm. Why should I read the posts? I haven't.

	If .campaign were strictly a gaming newsgroup, it would be ill
conceived. But it's not. Still, I believe that .adnd, .advocacy, and
.misc all serve the purpose  of talking about campaigns and developing
them.

	Finally, as a net site to be (I am in negotiation with PSI
about getting a feed to the school where I teach), I am beginning to
appreciate the cost involved with posting to the news. I don't believe
.campaign would be a wise move.

Elliott Wong

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:42:37 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <BxBKGA.Fnq@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>In article <564@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
>>In article <Bx7nG3.MwK@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>>>Yes.  A moderator's job is to get rid of off topic messages.  A campaign move
>>>which is not (quoting myself here) "in a ledgible, readible, enjoyable format
>>>for all" is an off-topic message.
>>
>>So now some people's moves will be dumped because they are ill-written?
>
>As I stated later on in this message (but you chose not to quote that part),
>there will be no messages rejected because of mispelling, bad grammer, etc.  

So straigh have I this got: mispellld mseges that bad gramma hav wil
be rejectd not for not "in a ldgible, rdeable, njoyable format for" being?


Or (to put it another way) -- misspelling and bad grammer in a message
make it (IMHO) disqualified by the "in a ledgible, readible, enjoyable
format for all" clause.  I don't know about you, but I don't particularly
enjoy reading a posting full of bad spelling and grammer (one of the
players in the Paranoia game I'm in on GEnie has posts like this).

Stating that they must be readable and enjoyable and then stating
that they will not be rejected because of misspelling and bad grammer
are self-contradictory.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It's not the way that you say it	|
when you do those things to me,		|	-Richard Hartman	
it's more the way you really mean it	|	hartman@uLogic.COM
when you tell me what will be.		|
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:46:44 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography

In article <1992Nov6.185527.2450@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>> If it happened because nobody in the group was paying attention -- as
>> seems to be the case here -- I'd shut up and accept the result.  Really. 
>
>What a completely elitist attitude. If "nobody in the group was paying  
>attention" were the cause, thank you for pointing out how stupid we all  
>are here and thank you so much for making our little lives better with  
>this name change.

Not paying attention != stupid.

If you didn't agree with the proposed name change, the time to object
was when the vote was being held. You are part of that "you" you are
thanking for the name change -- if you had bothered to vote it might not
have happened. It happened because you and many others were apathetic
about it.
From: ercm20@festival.ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Date: 12 Nov 92 12:58:23 GMT

david@datamark.co.nz (David Rowland) writes:
> In article <1992Nov7.030304.9126@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> PAPAI@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) writes:
> >	SFU just doesn't have the same ring as AFU. 
> 
> To tell you the truth, SFU looks close to SNAFU (Situation Normal, All
> F*****D Up)  8^}.

But then AFU is just AFU - why mess with it?  :-)

Sam
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:06:39 GMT

Followups to news.groups.

In article <1992Nov7.210040.1988@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>Why do you think there's this much commotion? Something must be wrong  
>someplace.

Yep.  A whole bunch of people failed to acquaint themselves with the
basic workings of Usenet.

>I'm personally not thrilled about the extra hour a day this thread is  
>taking me either.

No one's forcing you into it.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 08:23:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.181819.27565@til.til.com> erik@maui.til.com (Erik Horstkotte) writes:

>In article <1992Nov4.170918.16287@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) writes:
>
>|> Putting it in the sci or sci.engr hierarchy would make more sense, IMHO.
>
>Perhaps sci.fuzzy would be a good choice...

We already have sci.logic; wouldn't it make sense to put this group
under sci.logic.fuzzy?  At least that way people wouldn't mistake it
for a biology newsgroup. :-)

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.music.makers.* reorg: A thought
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:26:42 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67700241

Long ago, I subscribed to rec.music.synth, expecting, reasonably, to
read discussions about synth music.  Imagine how disappointed I was to
find that the messages were all about MIDI twiddling and patch requests.
I soon unsubscribed.

rec.music.makers.synth is a FAR better, FAR less ambiguous name than
rec.music.synth was.  Probably that's why many of the YES voters voted
as they did.  r.m.s should feel honored that they now have status with
the rest of the music makers.  I can't play music, but I respect all
those who do.  Guitar, synthesizer, whatever.

Let's hope this flap gets settled soon, with as little rancor as possible.
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin      Interviewer: "Sir, how do you spell relief?"
f67700241@ccit.arizona.edu               Dan: "R-O-L-A-I-D-S-E."

"[George Bush is] the most ruthless white man in the history of the planet."
	-- Richard Ben Cramer, author of _What It Takes_
"The President scores much better than Bill Clinton."
	-- Dan, comparing Bush's record of marital infidelity to Clinton's
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Group splits, killfiles...
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:46:17 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov9.153842.279@news.vanderbilt.edu> LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb) writes:
>The real solution is for people to read EVERYTHING in news.announce.newgroups;
>but can it be done?

I agree, and yes, I think it can be done.  The traffic in
news.announce.newgroups is low; there's no noise (because it's
moderated); and it's the one place where all CFD's/CFV's will
always go.  It's near the top of my .newsrc, because I'm interested
in these sorts of issues.  BTW, one useful tip for folks whose
newsreaders support killfiles or an equivalent mechanism: since articles
in news.announce.newgroups are usually followed by a discussion in
news.groups, if you see a thread starting that doesn't issue you,
add the subject to your news.groups killfile.   For example, if you
see this:

	Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups, foo.bar
	Subject: RFD: foo.bar.baz

then add

	/foo.bar.baz/j

to your rn/trn/xrn/xvnews killfile for news.groups.

This way, you never kill articles in news.announce.newgroups, but you
kill threads in news.groups that do not interest you.

---Rsk


Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.asean
From: khor@bnr.ca (Kyle Hor)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Reply-To: khor@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:08:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.194018.5150@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, mhmann@nyx.cs.du.edu (Me Mann) writes:
|> In article <1dh209INN7t5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> lim@po.CWRU.Edu writes:
|> >
|> >In article <16897B41D.C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>, C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER) writes:
|> >$ In article <1992Nov6.061354.1583@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>
|> >$ mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Man) writes:
|> >$  
|> >$ >>Mar Siew Cheong (escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
|> >$ >> Proposed Newsgroup's Name
|> >$ >> =========================
|> >$ >>   soc.culture.singaporean
|> >$ >>
|> >$ > Its high time to have a group for the Singaporeans. I support the idea.
|> >$ > However, I think the proposed newsgroups's name should be
|> >$ > "soc.culture.singapore". Easier to call.
|> >$  
|> >$ If you just want a group for yourself and your fellows, create a local one
|> >$ (shouldn't be too difficult in a country of your size). If there are
|> >$ reasons beyond simple nationalism, you would better explain them.
|> >$    I don't see the need for a separate net-clogger. Hongkong, Singapore
|> >$ and Macau might well be kept in one group.
|> >
|> >   
|> > I don't agree with you.   The propose group is for all Singaporean and 
|> >reader who interested in the development of Singapore around
|> 
|> If you say you don't agree with mfltan@ntu.ac.sg I support you.
|> However Eichener have a point when he was responding to mfltan@ntu.ac.sg.
|> The group is not just for Singaporean. If that is the case, it is not
|> fair for the net to carry or transport this group.  However, of course,
|> the charter did say it is open to all. 
|> 
[rest of chatter deleted...]

Sorry if I'm not following the discussion completely.  But here is the rule-
of-thumb.

 1) if the newsgroup is for worldwide participation 
    then use 'soc.culture' hierarchy, eg soc.culture.singapore
    
 2) if it is intended for local consumption only
    then use a 'local' hierarchy, .e.g. 'sgp.' and call it anything
         you like - sgp.development, sgp.news.d, sgp.gossip ???
         I don't care.
    
    That way the rest of the world need not know of the existence of
    'sgp.'

............................................................................
. Kyle Hor                    .    /       / _   .  Email  khor@bnr.ca     .
. Bell-Northern Research Ltd. .   /__\  / / /_\  .  Phone  (613) 763-2488  .
. Ottawa, Ontario, Canada     .  / \  \/ /  \__  .  ESN          393-2488  .
....................................__/.....................................
................  standard disclaimer, 2 cents opinion  ....................
.............  searching forever, for the perfect solution  ................
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 04:05:00 GMT

While I'm on a roll...

I'd like to address another issue raised by opponents of rec.games.frp.campaign.
Namely, many people have disected it and told me basicly that each component of
.campaign can be placed in a different existing .frp newsgroup.  This does
not surprise me, after all, their exists a rec.games.frp.misc group, and
frankly, in any hierarchy where there is a .misc group, there is *some* place
for people to post messages about anything even remotely related to the 
hierarchy.  This is great, and wonderful, and should definitely stay. 
However, obviously, it is not grounds for aborting a new newsgroup as 
otherwise we could just add a .misc group to every existing hierarchy and
thus stop any further discussion of new newsgroups.  And hey, if anyone
wants to create a new hierchy, we can always send them to misc.misc....

Rec.games.frp.campaign is all about the campaign, and campaigning, two of the
most important aspects of Fantasy Role Playing.  Despite the fact that 
campaigns and campaigning have been discussed in other newsgroups in the past,
the fact remains that their is sufficient interest in campaigns and 
campaigning to warrent an entire newsgroup just devoted to them.  If I'm wrong,
then hell, no one in the .frp hierarchy will vote for it.  I think my 
proposal is pretty solid right now, and I'm prepared to call for votes.
I will wait another week at least however, and I will still accept
suggestions for improvements.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:05:42 GMT

In article <BxGH38.E9I@unix.amherst.edu> ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu (Laird  
Nelson) writes:
> How much more public could the CFV have
> been?  I suppose it could have been broadcast on local NPR radio  
stations...
> 
The issue for some time has been "was it clear", not "was it public". 
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:37:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.081205.5985@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

Ooh, Dave, just what are we to do about those nasty sysadmins?  Kill
them all!  Then, of course, people will be able to read their news, free
from such evil elitism .  .  .

Oh, wait, there's a flaw here!  Without sysadmins doing their job,
people wouldn't be able to read their news!

Face it, Dave - people who choose to read news without bothering to
understand how Usenet works have, implicitely, decided to trust the
sysadmins, decided to trust those who work so there is news to read, and
that this news is organized in a halfway sane fashion.  So complaining
after that fact is really just sour grapes.

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:34:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.100735.11698@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Something has to be done about this attitude. What's wrong with being
>flexible for a change? (A *real* change) 

Yes, yes, let's all just throw the guidelines out for this vote. Let's
ignore that this vote was held completely in accordance with every
guideline and precedent for newsgroup creation and just ignore the
result and do what Dave wants instead of what those who took the time to
vote want.

For anyone who might miss it, the previous paragraph is sarcasm.

If we did decide to throw the guidelines out for this vote, I can
guarantee that the debates on whether the guidelines should be thrown
out for subsequent votes would dwarf this discussion. 

>I guess the only way to do this is a provision in the Guidelines that
>allows for flexibility. A revote even?

You are free to propose an RFD, right now, which would lead to another
vote. 

>>Not forever, mind you, but for the six
>>months until this group is eligible for a revote.
>
>Not true. By the letter of the law (which you all seem to be so intent
>on holding to) I can hold an immediate revote. 

Not true. You must first issue an RFD. Then discuss it. Even the revote
on the SF groups went through a three week re-discussion.

>The point is that the 
>damage will be done. An rmgroup will damage the group irreparably. 

rmgroups for renamed groups are not issued until at least a month or
more after the newgroup. If you start RIGHT NOW, the result of the vote
you conduct can easily beat any rmgroup. And, since there is no
guideline on how long there is between the 'newgroup new' and the 'rmgroup
old', Dave Lawrence can quite easily delay any rmgroup for r.m.s. There
is the flexibility you want. No rmgroup until after the results of the
second vote. But only if you start the process for that vote RIGHT NOW.

>Regardless of limitations, the subject line does need to be clear. 

"CFV". Three letters. 

>Let me rephrase this so that there's no misunderstanding.
>
>"The Call For Votes subject line should be clear to even the first
>time usenet reader. Otherwise people may not pay attention to it."

If the first time USENET reader sees the acronym CFV and decides without
investigation that it is something that he is not interested in, that is
his decision.
From: CH7QC@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:14:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: CUNYVM.92316.191414CH7QC
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

(Excuse my ignorance... but, what's a CFV... I know what a RFD is...)

(Request for Discussion?)
Thanks...
And, let's say I wanted to start a group... how do
you go about doing the RFD and voting and blah blah blah?
Well, thanks... later...
From: cs911157@ariel.yorku.ca (SYED K NAZEER)
Subject: Re: Islam and Ahmadiyya -- Enough
Originator: cs911157@c01.ariel.yorku.ca
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:31:38 GMT


In article <1dap0oINNi2j@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>, randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>> [Dislaimer:  I neither know very much nor have anything against either
>> Islam or Ahmadiyya.]
>> 
>> It would seem to me that the discussion of a new group has evolved
>> into a religious debate.  I would respectfully suggest that it be
>> moved to one of the religious groups; it does not belong here.
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu

Point well taken (by myself), now what about everyone else?

Khurram Nazeer
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:27:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.114429.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>In article <Bx8rLr.6vF@cen.ex.ac.uk>, ma90gjp@cen.ex.ac.uk writes:
>> Can somebody please let me know how to get onto rec.games.frp.campaigns
>> cos I can't find it.
>> I've run out of ideas for high level (10+) scenarios and I think this group
>> might help
>
>See how bad the name is? We don't even have the group and people already
>think it's something other than the person who proposed it intended. By
>the way, Graham, if you want a group for campaign descriptions, try
>rec.games.frp.archives.
>
What are you talking about? The proposal for .campaign specificly states
that discussions of campaigns and campaigning is permitted.  Read the
proposal before you flame.

Newsgroups: news.groups