From: c23st@KOCRSV01.DELCOELECT.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: On the continued comparisons of Greek & Turkish economies
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:01:02 GMT

Hasan B-) Mutlu (han@anadolu.michigan.com) writes: 
> Turkiye has prospered for over 65 years without EC and I see no 
> reason to change it, 'Geo T.' When you think of it, it appears that 
> the Turkish side has had all the trump cards in his hands and yet 
> it has not won the game so far. Let's see:

I thought Turkiye was a 'she', like all countries. Let's see indeed.

> 1. Turkiye is a much larger country than Greece with 57 Million
>    people versus 10.2 million Greeks.

And Pakistan is 100+ million, and Lichnestein is a few thousand. So?

> 2. The Turkish Armed Forces are much stronger than Greek forces.

Now you're talking. HERE IS ANOTHER SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT DO THE ARMY
SIZES OF THE TWO COUNTRIES HAVE TO DO WITH THEIR ECONOMIES?  (NEITHER
COUNTRY MAKES SUBSTANTIAL WEAPONS IN NUMBERS SO THAT DEFENSE IS A
MAJOR INDUSTRY, LIKE ISRAEL, BRAZIL, KOREA, ETC).  About as much as
the Greek Stock Market and Dead Kurds? 

> 3. The economy and industry of Turkiye are unquestionably stronger
>    than those of Greece.

In light of the data I (and you) presented in our last two mail
messages, i.e. from World Almanac, the only industry I can see Turkiye
being unquestionably stronger is child-making. A country that can make
$1.99 "Made in Turkey" Kmart 100% Cotton shirts has less cars,
commercial vehicles, appliances, TV's, phones, etc than its
"unquestionably weaker" neighbor of 1/6th population. Stronger :-). 

> 5. Gross Domestic Product average annual growth rate: 6.3%
> 6. GDP average annual growth rate: 5.3%
> 7. Agriculture average annual growth rate: 3.2% 
> 8. Industry average annual growth rate: 7.2%
> 9. Manufacturing average annual growth rate: 7.9%
> 10. Services average annual growth rate: 7.6%

Percentage growth rates are irrelevant if no absolute basis for
comparisons is presented. I already showed you what that means in the
GDP comparisons, where Greece did a 16% a year for the last few years
but its economy is still down the tubes.  Why did you ignore the 70% a
year inflation in Turkiye? And how come a Super-power of Agriculture
only has a 3.2 growth rate a year? 

> 11. Commercial energy ...

han> 14. Energy consumption per capita: 822 kg. of oil equivalent.
  
st> No figures provided for competing country. I provided figures for all
st> my data for both sides. Why did you ignore the fact that Turkiye,
st> being 6 times the size of Greece, has LESS private and commercial 
st> vehicles
 
han> 2. Average annual energy production growth rate: 8.9%

st> Then how come Greece, which imports quite a bit of its energy from
st> Yugoslavia/Bulgaria, has much higher per capita production of energy?
st> (33B KWH for 10 mil people vs. 46B KWH for 56 mil?)  (must be the
st> milder weather or all these Solar water heaters in Greece :-)).

> Indeed, Greece has enormous problems to tackle. Her economy is
> in shambles, corruption is rampant, air pollution is in 
> outrages dimensions and infrastructure is decaying. They

Greece is a 'she' but Turkiye is now a 'he'. I wonder if 'Gav*'
is right :-). As we have shown so far, Greece's economy may be
in shambles, but Turkiye's isn't any better, and certainly not
'unquestionably stronger'. For air pollution, need I remind you
of the comments of a Turkish netter who lambasted the pollution
from coal burning stoves and ancient automobiles? (and who
was lambasted himself for criticizing the fatherland).

> jail poor Albanian refugees and support, sponsor and shelter

I betya you have not seen cases of 'poor Albanian refugees'
killing Greek citizens for $10. About one every couple of days
while I was there last November. 

> terrorists against the people of Turkiye. Yet, Greece invests
> busily in military hardware to allay her paranoia.

I bet statements such as yours about the Turkish economy being
unquestionably better than the Greek economy because Turkiye has a
bigger army really help. The landing boats across the Greek (nya nya)
islands of the Greek Aegean sea have something to do with it too.

> The principal members of the EC admit that it was a mistake
> to accept Greece to the EC. This affirmation is testimony
> to the fact that notwithstanding her geographic location,
> Greece is un-European in mentality and attitude.

Like Italy, southern France, Spain, & Portugal are any better.
Why did they admit it then?

> Besides, can anyone see any resemblance between today's 
> Greeks and the ancient Greeks who created civilization?

None. who whould want to dress in bed-sheets and wear olive branches?
(though the concept of laying on marble La-z-boys and posting news all
day (modern equivalent of socratic discussions) is intriguing.

> As for democracy, had democracy really been an inherent 
> virtue of the Greeks would it have dragged its feet for 
> so long to come to Greece? 

I bet being occupied by the Ottomans for 400 years had something to do
with it, as did a couple of world wars and a civil war.

> But day to day, socially, economically, mentally, how European
> are you?

Let's see. Here's a list of popular items in Greece. Are they

a. remnants of the ancient greek glory (tm)	
b. remnants of the ottoman occupoation 		
c. western civilization as we know it
d. indigenous modern-greek
e. none of the above

1.  Levi's, Rayban, CD players, cable TV		[ ]
2.  Bouzouki, 'Turkish' coffee, ouzo			[ ]
3.  Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas (not Greek made 
    Opels or Nissans					[ ]
4.  Basketball (Greece is good or what?)		[ ]
5.  Soccer						[ ]
6.  Forest torchings followed by illegal buildings	[ ]
7.  Panasonic or Hitachi air conditioners everywhere	[ ]
8.  Yves St. Whatshisname cosmetics, Giorgio, ?, !	[ ]
9.  Pina Colada, Cre'pes, Folgers, Budweiser (yeech)    [ ]
10. Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, ...			[ ]
11. America's funniest home videos, startrek, Simpsons,
    WWF wrestling, Religious channels on TV, Sex on TV  [ ]
12. Visa, M/C, Amex, accepted everywhere, ATM's,	[ ]
13. Olive oil and white sheets (trick q, look above)    [ ]

How many (c)'s can you count? (hint: 1,3,4,7,8,9,10,11,12)

> Your governments sponsor, feed and shelter terrorists against
> a neighboring state, but France does the same. Therefore, you 
> are excusable in terms of certain moral and democratic values.

The name of the country supporting the Contra's escapes my memory
momentarily. I betya they're excusable too, no?

> Recently, students in the university-level specialist schools 
> voted to select the most dynamic, in their opinion, European 
> companies. They voted French, German, Italian, British, 
> Spanish ... no Greek. They did not remember themselves? Maybe. 

Ask the same questions in a US business school and see if you get any
US companies other than Walmart ('cause they sell $1.97 (less than
Kmart) 100% cotton "Made in Turkey" shirts) I bet Sony, Honda, Toyota,
etc come in first there as well. You don't see anyone foaming about it.

> Hasan B-) Mutlu [and obligatory road kill signature]

PS: I saw from the message header that your message has been cross-posted
across half the known universe. I trust my message was cross-posted as
well? It's kinda hard to have a dialog where only one side can post.

'Spiros'
--
'Spiros' 'Triantafyllopoulos'                c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       c23st@deaes.uucp
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek