HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmmirash@corsair.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Gender Benders!
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:11:35 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA


      It is time for me to plunge into the debate about gender specific
words. Most of you seem to be in favour of dropping the usage of these
words. However, I beg to differ. Aren't our prejudices a part of ourselves,
rather than the words we use? Gender non-specific words will hardly
ameliorate the situation. For example, even if you replace "waiter" and
"waitress" with "waitron", wouldn't the person who confronts the waitron
be able to determine the waitron's sex? We should attempt to efface
inherent prejudices that exist about the sexes, rather than the words
which define them. Unisex words and unisex clothing styles prevail
currently. What next? A single gender? (will we then indulge in self-
reproduction like plants?  :)) Why can we not accept that the male
and female sexes are different (physically) and not come to terms
with these differences? Why can we not prevent ourselves from making
sweeping generalisations such as "Women! You know what they are like!"
or "But he's a man!"? Gender specific words will continue to 
(and should be allowed to) thrive as long as there are 2 distinct
genders. This is because there *are* certain things that women can do
that men can't and vice-versa. The concept of sexism is fostered in
our minds and not in the words that we use. Using gender non-specific
words would hardly efface these inherent prejudices (unless you assume
that people in the future would have no actual visual or aural contact with 
each other - they would only comunicate through filters which would
cloak the sex of the persons involved; even the process of reproduction
would take place artificially). Why should the words such as "he"
or "she" be considered discriminatory? The discrimination lies only in
our minds! I am sure this provides food for thought......
                                                        The one and only,
                                                          Mandar.
 


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space the final frontier" - Star Trek.
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong"
                                                         - The Beatles
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: "Route" for yall!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:51:07 GMT

In <baron.20.713717987@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:

>Ted, that's "all ya'll," to be precise.


Isn't it "all y'all"?


--Dian
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: Coke brings back ancestors ...
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:22:32 GMT

In article <86205@netnews.upenn.edu>,
crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>How about mangled English that isn't necessarily part of a screwed up
>ad campaign?

Read Usenet more widely.  What's that?  Oh, you mean it has to be funny?


>I once saw a t-shirt in Thailand that said: "Verily, verily, he
>sees the level."  It was very attractive, done in pastels.  Or the
>ashtray, also in Thailand (a cornucopia of mangled English), with a
>picture of a man in overalls, standing in a field, and the words:
>"Standing in field, the breeze blowing, the sun shine and in the
>distance only sobbing, sobbing."  I can't believe I didn't buy it.

Actually, Japan is the place to go for this sort of thing.
Meaningless little English phrases are strewn all over any
product that is:

	a. for children;
	b. worn on the beach;
	c. made of colorful plastic; or
	d. generally difficult to sell.

I suppose they could be _haiku_ but they're creepy.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to talk.politics.* and anyone bored enough to read it.]

Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6434 soc.culture.british:11568
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Name for Brits and Irish?
Date: 16 Aug 92 10:27:16 GMT
Distribution: eunet
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <1992Aug15.185424.12447@Princeton.EDU>, by kjcarey@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Kevin J. Carey):
> 
> This has to be deliberate provocation.
Only towards Greeks or so I thought.


> 1. Ireland is not part of Britain.

Yes it is - it's just not part of the United Kingdom of *Great* Britain
and Northern Ireland. Britain is composed of the British Isles - all the
islands. I believe it was fashionable at one time (and may still be in
certain circles) to call the Irish "West Britons"

> 2. Eire is an Irish word, and this newsgroup is generally conducted in
> English.

Merely used to avoid the geographical term Ireland which would only have
lead to confusion in the circumstances. Alright if you wish say Irish
Republic, Irish Free state or what you will.

> 3. Even allowing mistake 2 to pass, your use of Eire is incorrect. Eire
> is the Irish for Ireland, so the UK and "Eire" are not distinct
> entities.

I may well be wrong here, I though it was the official name of the Irish
Republic - is it?

> 4. You must be someone who either reads this newsgroup a lot, or never
> reads it at all.

A lot actually

Andy
From: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (Bunweasel)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Are you busy?" or "Are you free?"
Date: 16 Aug 92 12:46:45 GMT
Reply-To: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au
Organization: Department of Computer Science, The University of Queensland


	-- An Aus response --

"Are you busy?"		= "Please don't bite my head off, but.."

"Are you free?"		= Not often used. Invites the camp response "I'm free",
			   as in T.V. series "Are you being served?"

"Um, excuse me."	= The usual interrupt.

"Mind if I bother you?" = "You're really going to hate this, I can tell.."

"You're busy, aren't you."
			= "I was just going to go away and drown myself but..."

"Oh, by the way..."	= "One of us is going to look a dreadful fool (unless)..."

"Are you free Saturday?"= "We weren't going to invite you, but at the last
			    minute someone dropped out."

"Are you doing anything Saturday?"
			= "Feel free to make something up if you think I'm too
			    boring, but..."

"Are you busy Saturday?"= "I'm sure you'd rather just sit in the backyard and
			    crack a few tinnies, but..."


-cheers, michaeln.

---------------------  /\/\/\/- -------------------------------------
The infinite is anything precisely big enough that it doesn't matter.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 01:51:15 GMT

In article <3775@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>From article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>by shair@barolo.cso.uiuc.edu (Bob Shair):
>> Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"
>> Statements such as this one sound wrong to me:     
>     The PS/2 8511 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
>     8512, contributing to higher reliability for the customer.
>
>It doesn't just sound wrong Bob, it *is* wrong. [...]
>The barbarians are at the gate and it needs all of us to drive them away.


If anything, it's time to give up on IBM.

On the other hand, as Cavafy said, the barbarians can be a kind
of solution.  Drive them away and we are reduced to apathetic silence.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to Katerina and Panos.]

From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:52:44 GMT
Subject: Thought without language?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english


Pondering a question posed in misc.writing led me to the question, "Is
rational thought possible without language?"  I've done a little
research and discovered (what a surprise!) that it's an unresolved
issue.  Currently, the dominant theroy seems to be that language
influences the thought process.  

Coming upon phrases in this group such as, "Sloppy language leads to
sloppy thinking," leads me to pose the question to the group:

 Is rational thinking possible without language?

I don't think this is quite a "chicken and the egg" type question,


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Insanity is just a state of mind.
fish@hpscit.hp.com             | 
although I could be wrong.  Any thoughts?     
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Reply-To: goer@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:55:14 GMT

roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>>No, you should have pointed out that "8 items or less" is flat-out
>>>*correct.*  And idiomatic.  And long-standing usage.  And standard.
>
>>.......NOT!
>
>OK, Gabe: meet you at the OED, or the reference grammar of your choice.

Gabe is just playing the adversary, needling the sorts of folks who
will find wanton disregard for the OED offensive.  I'll wager that,
when writing, he uses standard English as well as you.  He's merely
reminding us that there's no reason to fixate on minor points like
this (or worse yet, claim some bizarre sort of superiority for being
aware of them).

Incidentally, the OED is not strictly a prescriptive dictionary (as
I myself have been repeatedly reminded here), although there is an
obvious tendency to cite only the "best" sources (!).

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Organization: Maryland Appreciation Society, Buffalo, NY
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:48:07 GMT

In article <BsvvC.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rmshair@chgvmic.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"

No!  Never give up!

>Statements such as this one, excerpted from the formal IBM Announcement
>Letter for a new display, sound wrong to me:     
[stuff deleted]
>          The PS/2 85 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
I've been thinking of buying a few supermarket chains just so I can
actually see signs that say "7 items or fewer."

+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
| Marc G. Frank                                  mgfrank@avernus.com |
|                   I'd rather be in Eldersburg.                     |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6460 sci.lang:6459
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 16 Aug 92 23:30:04 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug16.203635.3839@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>Can anyone shed some light on how the dreadful usage of the word "axe" in
>place of "ask" ever got started?  Is there any linguistin explanation as
>to why the s and k sounds get reversed in many inner-city dialects?

Is this common in other word that have the "sk" in them?  Or is the
reversal lexical in "ask?"  It could just be lexical.

Regards,
Janis C.
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Someone kicked my Donkey...
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:33:37 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <SLAGLE.92Aug13021809@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>In article <86011@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>
>> In article <SLAGLE.92Aug11235523@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>
>>>The horse kicked an ass.
>>>The horse kicked one of the asses.
>>>The horse behaved like an ass.
>
>> More asininity.
>
>I get no kick from champing, et cetera, and then a bit.
>Col', very col'.  But any port in a stern.

Pardon?

>Don't be cruel.

I was trying to find words with "ass" in them, or words that
pertained to one's ass.  I was thrilled to bits to find out that
"asininity" was a word.  To wit: " asinine (adj.), asininely (adv.),
asininity (n.):  (second definition) Of, relating to, or resembling
an ass." Perhaps I used "asininity" asininely in this case?

 

-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and as far as I'm
concerned, happy campers you will always be."
                  --J. Danforth Quayle in American Samoa
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke)
Subject: mereological
Originator: jbotz@orixa.mtholyoke.edu
Organization: Smith College, Northampton, MA, US
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 12:29:57 GMT

I cannot find "mereological" in Webster's or Random House's
or Oxford's unabridged dictionaries.  I encountered it in a 
(recent) philosophy book:  "Thus a mereological hierarchy ... 
is discerned." Can anyone provide a definition?  Thanks!

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: steve@utopia.resntl.bhp.com.au (Steve Woodyatt)
Subject: Jinglish Coffee Label
Organization: BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:14:38 GMT



Found on a recent trip to Manila (Philippines) in a tourist coffee shop.
the following (Jinglish and Japanese) label on a jar of coffee imported 
from Japan:


		AGF Maxim  Freeze Dried Coffee

	" The wood porch faced east. First sunrise burned the mist from 
	  the hilly hollows, then dried out the webs spiders spun 
	  overnight between leaves of grass. A distant chainsaw cut into
	  the birdsong; the rising wind whipped blue butterflies with 
	  stalks of goldenrod."




I can just picture the chainsaw now........ 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------/\/\---
Steve Woodyatt, Research Scientist, Image Analysis Grp.           / / /\
                BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories, Australia./ / /  \
Snail   :       P.O. Box 188, Wallsend 2287                     / / / /\ \
Tel     :       +61 49 510695 Fax: +61 49 502126                \ \/ / / /
Internet:       steve@resntl.bhp.com.au                          \  / / / 
------------------------------------------------------------------\/\/\/--
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: "Are you busy?" or "Are you free?"
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:19:31 GMT

In article <9208161026.AA19862@MIT.EDU> dks@MIT.EDU (dks) writes:
>
>                        Q1:    "Are you busy?"
>                        Q2:    "Are you free?"

This New Yorker uses "Are you busy?" if I need someone's attention
immediately.  

	"Are you busy?"
	"No, why?"
	"Can you come with me for a sec?"

I use "Are you free?" if I'm making long term plans, and the person 
with whom I am making plans *knows* what I'm trying to do.

	"We should have dinner next week."
	"Yeah, I know.  Are you free on Wednesday?"

But I'd use "Are you busy?" if the person I'm talking with doesn't yet
know what I'm doing.

	"Are you busy next Wednesday?"
	"No, why?"
	"Want to have dinner?"


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: LESS v FEWER - SAINSBURY'S GUILTY
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:25:43 GMT

In article <3813@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
>Subject: LESS v FEWER - SAINSBURY'S GUILTY
>Date: 17 Aug 92 11:45:51 GMT
>To contribute to this thread a little more. Today was shopping day so I
>went down to Mr Sainsbury's local emporium only to find, "Quick checkout
>- 8 items or less". I've written to the manager about this and will post
>the reply assuming I get one.
>
>Andy

The problem with the express lane is not whether they use less or
fewer, it's that it takes longer to buy something in the express
lane than in the regular lanes.

Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Question about ASCII IPA
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:11:54 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese):
:When you say the word "emphasize," stop right before you get to the /f/.
:Chances are, you'll be making the /m/ with your upper teeth and lower
:lip.

Thanks -- I see what you mean.  But do we really want to get into phonologic
distinctions instead  of merely phonemic one in IPA?  If we do that, then
we'll start distinguishing between dental and alveolar t's.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist


    f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng.
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6688 sci.lang:6585
From: maynor@Ra.MsState.Edu (Natalie Maynor)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:04:03 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

I'm trying to think whether I've ever heard anybody include the second [f]
in "fifth."  So far, I've come up with one possible person:  a colleague
of mine who seems to speak Broadcast English most of the time -- and is
looked upon as rather odd as a result.  I'll listen more closely today.
My reaction to hearing that second [f] pronounced (in normal conversation),
at least in the U.S. South, would probably be that the speaker suffers from
linguistic insecurity.
--
   Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Thursday, 20 Aug 1992 22:00:38 EDT
From: <HERSCH@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
 <1992Aug20.153627.23885@Princeton.EDU>

In article <1992Aug20.153627.23885@Princeton.EDU>, roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
(Roger Lustig) says:
>
>Why *not* say "usage" when we mean usage?

Yeah, Roger...and why not say "me" when we mean "me" and not "I"?
Or why not say "fewer" when we mean fewer? You're always trotting
out centuries of usage as documented in the OED or other sources
as unanswerable justifications for whatever it is you seem to feel
like justifying. But centuries of using "grammar" or "grammatical"
in this way, which is understood by *everybody* who speaks English,
somehow fails to make it all right? Why is that, dear?

H.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: Writing
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:51:55 GMT

In article <3812@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>When reading a translated novel yesterday I came across the Americanism
>"x writes y" and sighed as is my wont. On the next page though to my
>surprise I found "x writing TO y".
>Is the translator being inconsistent, or does American
>usage really differ with the form of the verb like this? If so can
>anyone explain why?


In USAn usage, I find both "x writes y" and "x writes to y" patterns.
If anything -- and I don't have the data to back up the assertion -- it is
non-USAn usage that seems to hearken to one pattern: the latter.

I don't think the form of the verb has anything to do with it.

I can't explain why, nor am I sure that the question of why is meaningful.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to translators, without whom we'd long have perished.]

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 19:17:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.003302.10572@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>
>We still decline pronouns in English.  "Me and my friends" violates that
>rule, rather blatently.  I see no benefit to violating that rule even in
>casual conversation, unless one *wants* to sound like a sixth grader.


Right.  It's better to sound pompous, as in:
	Who's that? - It is I.
"It's me" would blatently (sic) violate the rules of declension,
wouldn't it?


-Margaret
mikulska@astro.princeton.edu
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: pundette
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:13:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug10.112029.8144@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>
>I would have thought so. By the way, can someone explain why "waitron" was
>coined and not a different word. It is *hideously* ugly. I continue to use
>"waiter" and "waitress", partly because I can't think of anything else.


I think "waitums" would be sweet.




-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and as far as I'm
concerned, happy campers you will always be."
                  --J. Danforth Quayle in American Samoa
From: segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Route"
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:44:43 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

I've been following this thread for a while now, and I
thought I'd ask (or is it "axe") the following question:

"Is the pronunciation of the word route connected to the
pronunciation of the word tooth?"

I've noticed a distinction between some of us over here who
use a long vowel, and some of you over there who use a
short one, as in "tuth". The latter is the pronunciation
used in Minneapolis (my birthplace), is it limited to the
Midwest or is it another BrE/AmE thing?

Sadly I don't understand IPA so I've had to express this as
best I can. Perhaps someone can suggest a reference that I
can follow-up on IPA.


Simon Read (Simon.Read@umist.ac.uk)
----------

Sorry about the long lines in previous postings. These
windowing systems tend to make one very impolite!
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english