From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Subject: Re: Value of Life
Organization: gte
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:05:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.213415.20408@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
> In article <1992Sep25.184205.12710@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
> >In article <19lsaiINNd6c@agate.berkeley.edu>, martyg@ocf.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
> >> In article <1992Sep21.161808.15296@brtph560.bnr.ca> alex@bnr.ca writes:
[...]
> >> 
> >Well, if you're gonna cry about the unborn, we should outlaw
> >the pill -- it acts to prevent birth.  We should also outlaw
> >sterilization of males and females -- it prevents a birth.
> 
> There is a big difference between human life which is there and human life
> which has yet to be created.  
> 
> >
> >Oh, when the sperm and egg meet, then there is life?  Well,
> >a sperm is alive, so is the egg.  
> >
> >So where do you draw the line?
> 
> Try putting a sperm inside a mother's womb (making sure it makes no
> interaction with an egg or anything like that).  Wait about nine months.
> See any sign of a screaming crying baby?
> 
> Now put a fertilized egg inside a mother's womb.  Barring a miscarriage or
> abortion, wait about nine months.  See any sign of a crying screaming baby?
> 
> >
> >The Catholoic church has drawn it at condoms and the pill.
> >
> 
> If you are talking about life, I believe, the Catholic Church agrees with
> the scientific community in saying life begins at conception.

The scientific community also agrees that a sperm is alive and so
is an egg -- both are human tissue and are alive.

> >Others at conception and still others at fetal viability.
> >
> >I believe it is the Hindus who believe that spirit enters
> >the body at birth (no life until birth).
> >
> >Given that we have persons of all religous persuasions in
> >this country, and we have (supposedly) the right to 
> >freedom of religion, the decision of when abortion
> >becomes murder belongs in the church and the home,
> >not the gov't.
> 
> As has been mentioned a million+2 times, abortion is not necessarily
> a religious issue (those who have seen this response a million+3 times, feel
> free to press 'n').  There are those in the pro-life movement who are of
> many different Religions.  There are even those who are athiests!  So how
> can they be pro-life and not religious?  No church or ideology is guiding
> them.

Pull your head out and look around.  Who are the leaders of the pro-life
movement?  Preachers!  Now because you claim there are a few athiests 
involved, you want me to believe it is not a religious issue?  I have 
yet to hear of any church which supports abortion: this is definitely
a religious issue.  

> Part of the reason is that looking at the world, seeing, learning, and
> trying to understand, people have come to the conclusion that real
> human life exists within the mother's womb, and because each person has
> a special intrinsic value in them, human life must be protected whether
> it be born or unborn.

Some people have come to the conclusion that life begins at conception:
most of these people have been told so by the church -- that's what makes
it a religious issue.

Sounds like the age old attitude that the church has the right to meddle 
in the lives of individuals because the church is moral, just and RIGHT.

Answer me this: how many homeless, hungry children have you taken into
your home this year?

When every child in this country is well fed, clothed, sheltered, and
educated, then you can come talk to me about forcing more births;
meanwhile, you've got a lot of action to take before I can accept
your notion that abortion is wrong and must be outlawed.

IMHO, the pro-life movement is a bunch of "do-gooders" who feel the
need to do something morally right but can't be bothered to get their
hands dirty in the process.  Why do I say that?  Because there are 
enough hungry children roaming the streets to keep the whole lot 
busy for a decade, but those children are still going hungry.
(BTW, I've taken in two children this year [one at a time, thankfully]
and I don't have time to run around telling others how to live -- I'm
too busy caring for the unfortunate to be screaming at the immoral about
how they should bring more unfortunates into this world.)

IMHO, the churches are against abortion because it takes away much 
of the suffering and stigmatism which follows sex: and god knows 
the churches like to make us feel like sinners who need forgiveness
by declaring sex as evil.  Abortion effectively takes away a very
large hammer which the churches have been using against us for 
centuries.

-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
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