From: lhughes@b11.ingr.com (Lawrence Hughes)
Subject: Re: Christian Bashing
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:36:55 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.164538.7547@infonode.ingr.com>, jim@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed) writes:
> In article <1992Apr10.143355.20698@b11.ingr.com>, lhughes@b11.ingr.com (Lawrence Hughes) writes:
> |> BUZZZZZ! Wrong. The writing of Confucius are older, more accurate to the
> |> orginal, and much better documented.
> 
> I was unaware of that.  How old are they?  How much time elapsed between the
> original and the oldest surviving copies?  I honestly didn't realize that
> Confucius lived over 3000 years ago.

Sorry - I was referring to the fact that those writings were older than the
NEW testament - either 2300 or 2500 years old (I unfortunately don't have my
reference here, and don't recall - either 3rd cent. or 5th cent. BC). I was
not claiming they were older than the OLD testament. They were recognized as
important enough, and there was sufficiently advanced (and uninterrupted)culture
between the writing and now, that there is every reason to believe that the
current texts are essentially exact copies of the original writings. I am not
currently aware of the actual age of the earliest surviving physical copy of
the writings, if that is what you are asking about. It's possible there are
some of the real originals somewhere - I will try to find out. When in the
National Palace Museum in Taipei (ROC), I saw intact scrolls from at least
that long ago (the nationalist Chinese took most of the art and historical
treasures with them when then fled to Formosa (now Taiwan), and they are now
in the NPM - one of the most fascinating places on Earth).

> |> In fact, there is a clear and indisputable
> |> geneology from Confucius himself (actually from many generations before) down
> |> to current living members of his line.
> 
> How is it that there's an indisputable geneology from Confucius (over 3000 years)
> when current day geneologists are doing quite well to achieve 300 years (even
> with some questionable data)?

1. The family in China is now (at least in ROC) more important than in any
   Western Society, especially with "ancestor worship", and the preserving of
   geneoligies was (and still is) of paramount importance, even considered a
   religious duty. Different situation - different results.

2. There has been essentially continuous culture in China back to the time of
   the first kingdom in Egypt - much more likely for things considered
   important the entire time to be preserved. They also have an essentially
   unbroken list of emperors (albeit some "foreign", such as Temuchin, also
   known as Genghis Khan, from Mongolia). I have a list somewhere if you are
   interested.

China (ignore the current, flash in the pan, communist fad - it will pass soon)
is the home of the world's oldest continuous and IMHO most advanced and
refined culture - ignoring technology for the moment (admittedly hard for most
westerners to do, since that is our only good card) imagine what our culture
will be like in a few thousand years.... be very careful about applying
western assumptions and standards to this culture.

> |> BTW - one thing I've been wondering about - your bible (or at least the Old
> |> Testament) makes it pretty clear that the Jews are the chosen people of your
> |> God (and they will certainly confirm this, if asked) - what makes you non-
> |> Jewish folk (which comprises the vast majority of christians) think that
> |> Jehova is at all interested in YOUR welfare?
> 
> The Old Testament Jews were God's chosen people.  (I'll beg the question
> on what that means for Jews today :-)  God's intent and instructions for
> them was that they were to be an example to the nations of the world
> (similar to His instructions to Christians today).  They got self-righteous
> about it (similar to the reactions of many Christians today).

So, today's christians are about to lose his favor too?

> When Jesus
> came, they failed to recognize Him as the Messiah they were expecting
> (they were expecting the wrong thing).  Since Jesus was rejected by
> the chosen people, that opened the door (so to speak) for the rest of us.

If I were a Jew, I would be quite insulted by your attitude. I assume you are
aware that in their opinion, christians have squandered THEIR immortal souls
by following a false prophet, before the "real" messiah came...

> |> Is that why you continually
> |> try to supplant your god Jehova with one of your other gods, Jesus?
> 
> There's no supplanting going on.  I don't quite know how to explain it,
> but Jesus and Jehovah (God the Father) and the Holy Spirit are one and
> the same.  Yet they are also distinct in how they relate to mankind.

Sorry - never have bought the 1=3 line... it's really ok to have multiple
gods if that's what you want, but I consider it bunk to worship multiple gods
and then slaughter hordes of non-belivers just because they won't worship
"one god". If you can't explain it, you probably don't really believe it
yourself - it isn't real complicated.... just saying that it is "somehow"
so doesn't help your credibility in any way. 

> -- 
> James B. Reed                | If at first you don't succeed,
> DAZIX, An Intergraph Company | Find out why,
> jimreed@b23b.ingr.com        | **THEN** try again.
> (205) 730-8874               |

Larry "1=1, not 3" Hughes