From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Rec.food.veg's health warning.
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 17:35:34 GMT


>Ted Wayn Altar writes:
>>What you called a "sarcasm" is still a rude remark.  Michael Traub
>>presented a reasonable proposal to the real problem of flaming
>>and rude interjections by some defensive ominvores who are not able
>>to make a postive contribution.  

Matt Landau writes:
>Let us remember that "flaming and rude interjections" are not the
>exclusive province of omnivores on rec.food.veg, and let us remember
>that a little tolerance on both sides goes a long way.

Apparently, the initiation of flaming and rude remarks is the
exclusive province of SOME of our omnivore kibitzers.  Pick
any flame you wish and let us do a close analysis.  Take a 
look at my recent postings and replies to the rainforest issue.


>  I personally
>respect the intensity with which Michael Traub holds his beliefs, 
>even if I don't share all of those beliefs.  

>But any objective reader of rec.food.veg would have to conclude that
>Michael can be just as rude and abusive as any omnivore in his writings,
>both publicly and in private email.  

Well, it has been my objective reading that this is simply not
the case.  Michael Traub does not initiate flames but he does
repond to them and is so warranted in making a tic for tac response.

The tolerance you properly ask for must first start with our 
omnivorous GUESTS who are NOT entitled to make rude and destructive 
remarks to people who have gathered here to share and exchange 
information about vegetarianism to fellow vegetarians and to those w
who are serious in learning about vegetarianism.  

We are not here to defend our person, our committments 
or even our beliefs to those who clearly have no
sympathy or interest in advancing vegetarianism as indicated
by their personal attacks, their rude remarks and sarcasms, or
their interminable and dishonest quibbling about the evidence and
facts that support the advantages of vegetarianism.

If our ominvore guests wish to seriously ask honest questions,
engage in civil and intelligent debate, or simply snarf our
recipes, fine.  But it is NOT their place to tell our practicing
vegetarian contributers to leave, it is NOT their place to 
insult us a "fanatics", and it is NOT their entitlement to here
quibble to no end about that which they really do not care to
understand or learn.

[. . .]
> It IS,
>after all, possible to disagree with (even argue or debate with) someone
>without descending into the kind of thing that's littered this newsgroup
>for the past two or three months.

Well, I think you exaggerate what has occurred on this conference.
Only a minority of defensive omnivores have here left their
"litter".  The bulk of the messages have been good recipes, useful
information and discursive dialogue.  Check out some of the more
political orientated message boards if you really want to see
some interminable flaming.


[. . .]
>Unfortunately, the flaming, unsubstantiated allegations, and name-calling
>from omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans alike has over the past couple of
>months reduced rec.food.veg to little more than a series of adolescent
>shouting matches. 

I don't think you are being even-handed and fair.  I would challenge 
you to find fault with any of my postings, yet I have been called a 
"fanatic", "dogmatic", etc.  I have been civil and attempted rational 
discourse with my worthy opponents yet I have received repeated insults  
and even vicious hate e-mail. 
.
It is easy to generalize about one's impressions in 
general about this conference, but as it stands your allegations
are unsubstantiated.  I would challenge you to quote from a thread of
either mine or Michael Traub's postings.  I think in the end you
will discover upon a fair reading of what either I or Michael Traub
is responding to, that our replies are quite appropriate.

[. . .]
> That's sad -- I used to look forward to reading this
>group for interesting recipes and factual information ... now it's just
>become a source of cynical amusement to see who's flaming who today.
>What a waste.

Then help us out by posting some original recipes or information
helpful to vegetarians about vegetarianism.  There is no need to
be sad, there is only the responsibility for all to make POSITIVE
contributions.
.
                                     ted

.