From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 14:12:04 GMT

In article <1b1lktINN10u@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>
>hopefully, Dylan will not be one of those kids who hits your kid
>first.  This is the whole point I'm trying to make:  we're raising
>Dylan to be non-violent and non-aggressive.  We will not tolerate
>unprovoked aggression from him, and I do not see the value in
>parents tolerating or encouraging that sort of behavior from
>children. 

  There are parents of insecure self-esteem reliving their own
  childhood who do indeed encourage their kids (usually boys)
  to be aggressive and provoke conflicts.  We had a neighbor
  who grew up in Nazi Germany and used to get his butt kicked
  by all the kids when he was little.  He and his wife used
  to tell their son to go out and beat someone up for the day.
  Unfortunately, my poor brother lived right across the street
  from them.  Add to that, we're Asian American and they're German
  American and they would come over and claim our house, yard, as
  theirs and that we should go back to where we came from.  So
  my brother got pretty good at self-defense, but fat a lot of
  good that did.  This neighbor then got the rest of the whites
  in the neighborhood to come and gang up 5-6 kids up on my brother
  (who was younger than all of them).  So for a while, my mom had
  to drive my brother to school and back.  At school we learned
  from a teacher that this neighbor's kid Bobby was having a lot
  of problems.  That his whole family was recommended by the Child
  Protective Services to go into counseling, and that the root
  of the problem was that the father and mother were reliving
  their own childhood and making Bobby go out and pick fights.
  The end of the story is that they finally moved away, their
  son got low grades and marks in school, and I doubt that
  he is a successful engineer like my brother is.  And most of
  the other whites moved out too as more Mexicans and Filipinos
  moved in.  My brother is still prosocial and was well liked
  by his peers.  Bobby was a lone-wolf, and hated by all the
  other kids who left him out of their games.

>
>Again, I don't know anyone who would argue that being able to defend
>oneself is a bad idea.  But there's a world of difference between
>acting in self-defense and acting aggressively or violently.  Now,
>putting aside instances in which self-defense would be necessary,
>would you (or Mr. Dutton) advocate the use of aggression or
>violence?  If not, then there's no fundamental disagreement here.  
>
>In the playground incident that I related, the bigger boy who
>pushed my son was not provoked *in the least*.  He simply walked up 
>to Dylan and shoved him.  My argument is that such behavior should 
>not be tolerated or encouraged.  Do people really have a problem
>with such a view?  If that older boy was *your* son, would you have
>just brushed off the incident as his father did?  If the answer is
>yes, then you clearly believe that aggression is acceptable, and
>that's where I strongly disagree.

  Well my son would have gotten a time-out and removal from the
  playground.  At this age, my son is very affectionate and will
  frequently walk up to older girls and hug them.  None of them
  have pushed him.  Although a 15-month old boy did push my son
  unprovoked and my son stood his ground, making sure he didn't
  get pushed down.  Since no harm was done, I don't see why my
  son should have pushed back and thus escalate the conflict.
  Instead he just looked at the guy like, "you got a problem."
  and the mother scooped the little fellow away.  He also got
  pushed down by a billy goat who got so excited when a lady
  walked in with popcorn and just reached up to pet the goat
  instead.  That was cute, but my camcorder wasn't running...  :-)

  Funny thing is that if Dylan were big enough to push back, that
  kid might have run squalling and crying to his dad.  I know that
  when my mom first complained to the neighbor, she said, "Tell
  your son to hit back."  But when my brother actually did and
  knocked the little weenie to the ground, she was the first to
  come out and yell and scream bloody murder while her Bobby
  stood there bawling his eyes out.  He expects to go around
  bullying and not have to take the consequences of his bullying.
Newsgroups: misc.kids