HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 19:39:56 GMT

In article <1hab1pINN4uf@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>
>Ok, let me reword my posting. First, please excuse the careless nature
>of my past postings. I wasn't aware the I was about to be challenged
>by those whose league I clearly am not in.
>
>It is my belief that, based on casual conversations I've had with many
>non-MDs and one MD, that case studies exist regarding the successful 
>treatment of AIDS with Homeopathy and Traditional Chinese Medicine.
>This statement clearly carries no weight whatsoever and was not meant
>as proof of anything. Rather, it was just casual dialogue.
>
>I am not motivated nor feel I have the time to pursue gathering information
>regarding alleged case studies. My prime motivation concerning all my postings
>up to this point was to share some new personal experience regarding homeopathy
>and to engage in dialogue regarding other alternative medicine practices.
>
>I wish to retract any statement which implies that I have proof or documentation
>of anything outside of my own experience.
>
>Since this alias is labeled misc.health.alternative, I would be curious
>to know now whether or not future posts are going to be subject to such
>aggressive scrutiny. I am not prepared to spend the time defending each and
>every post, however biased and unsupported by facts, by those who apparently
>aren't interested in alternative medicine in the first place.
>
>Greg
>
Health is a very serious topic.  There are well-understood criteria
for efficacious treatments.  I think there SHOULD be aggressive
scrutiny on health topics.  Please let us not have listings of
anecdotal experiences.  And let us not have religious wars about
homeopathy.  Ordinary, sound evidence is what is needed, and I,
personally, don't care about the professional affiliations of those
who have evidence.  Some of us are trying to learn something about
their health problems and aren't interested in anything that is not
reasonably researched.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: How far should Homeopathic medicine be f
Date: 24 Dec 1992 19:19:05 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


>A couple I know seem to be carrying it too far.  They see only a
>chiropractor for all medical problems.  He does not prescribe any
>non-natural medicines.  They have 2 children, one 2 years and the
>other 4, who have never seen an MD, and have never been given vacines
>or innoculations.

>I don't think they ever visit an MD.  The women commented to me that
>she had a sinus infection for close to 2 months, and the treatments
>had not yet helped.  He had just given her another natural extract to
>try.  


I'm personally on guard to being sucked into a cultural movement into
alternative medicine, i.e. letting it become an all-encompasing lifestyle
sort of deal where you *always* do something and *never* do the other.

I don't have data, but I'll share some personal reflections;

My OMD (TCM Doctor) often makes comments about sending patients out
to seek conventional treatment specifically in the case of suspected
infections. He feels that TCM can treat infections, but much slower
and usually with a level of follow-up care that he can't always provide.
He sees nothing wrong with using antibiotics when they're really needed
instead of allowing an infection to linger on.

I see a Chiropractor relating to a history of back problems and while
she occasionally will adjust my back in the hopes of improving my asthma,
she's never claimed she could cure it. While I understand some of the 
reasoning behind using chiropractic for a total health care system,
it still seems like wishful thinking to me. If your friend hasn't 
kicked her sinus infection by now, I think she's really being unrealistic.

I guess if you're so stubborn about using alternatives that you'd allow
yourself to be sick so long, you deserve what you get. I know that in TCM
they talk about chi (vital life force) and in homeopathy as well, and if
your chi just isn't strong enough I suppose it's realistic to understand
why alternative medicine would have a hard time doing the job.

I personally feel that there needs to be a balance to everything in life,
and it sounds to me that your friends may be lacking in it.

Greg


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Depression
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 04:38:32 GMT

In article <1hdnfsINN7t7@cae.cad.gatech.edu> dips@cad.gatech.edu (Deeptendu Majumder) writes:
>Does anybody have any opinion about dealing with depression
>in ways other than Prozac.

You could try eliminating milk and/or wheat products from your diet for
a week or two and see if that helps. Either of them can cause depression.

Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:28:03 GMT

I think you're confusing homeopathy with herbalism and other forms of
alternative treatment, such as colonics. There is no danger that any
homeopathic medicine is carcinogenic, though some herbal treatments
may be. Let's keep clear what we are talking about.
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet (Clover M.)
Subject: Re: Cold and Flu treatment- questions
Reply-To: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 19:12:34 GMT

Hi!  I like the way that herbal tea mixture looks, but I don't see how much
water it uses.  If I was making 1 pint of tea, for example, would I use 
1 teaspoon = 1 part? Hlaf a teaspoon? 1 gram?

Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
This is my very first sig.file
From: npm@dale.cts.com (Nancy Milligan)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:58:14 GMT
Organization: Titan Linkabit Corporation
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Richard Kaplan (rkaplan@netcom.com) wrote:
> That said, I am concerned that homeopathy may cause
> some patients to delay more traditional and possibly
> more effective treatment.  

Here, here!  My mother was a follower of Adel Davis and every
"homeopathic" remedy that washed down the river.  When I was a 
child she'd take me to doctors that would have me drink tea in
order to cure severe respritory ailments.  I spent a good part
of the sixth grade with bronchitis.

My own mother was afflicted with chronic bronchitis, and she
would never see a MD about it.  Instead she would read her herb
books and visit chiropracters who would have her fast and
take high colonics or drink wheat grass juice.  Every 
teeny improvement in her cough was attributed to whatever 
distasteful regimen she was following, and every time she got worse 
it was because she ate some flour, or sugar, or drank coffee, 
or somehow failed to do the right thing.  Her coughing fits 
were horrible.  She sounded about like Mimi in La Boheme.  

Many years passed and now she has so much damage to her lungs
and bronchial tubes from so many years of coughing that she has a bit 
of emphasema  (sp?).  Now she is in her 70's and goes to see a MD 
regularily.  Her MD put her on strong antibiotics for her cough, and 
guess what!?!  She got much, much better!  Another one perscribed her 
an inhaler, and guess what!?!  It helps!

So there you have it.  Here's some anecdotal evidence that you can
carry homeopathy too far.

My own feeling is that you can harm yourself with "natural" remedies
just as easily as you can (probably more so) with prescribed drugs.
At least the drugs have undergone rigorous testing and the side effects
are known.  When you start combining your own home cures you might
be exposing yourself to carcinogens science hasn't even discovered yet.
In fact, last year I read (in Science News digest) that a common home-remedy
in China, the combination of two kinds of plants, is a very potent
carcinogenic.  Not only that, but it's very difficult to regulate the
dose.  You might be ingesting something that is harmless, or perhaps 
beneficial in low-doses, but that is toxic at higher levels.

I urge caution and "healthy" skepticism when it comes to homeopathy.
There are, of course, things that aren't perfect when it comes to
"Western" medicine.  But most of the modern medical wonders, like
vaccinations for one, aren't a product of Eastern medicine.
From: rowlands@flash.pax.tpa.com.au (David  Rowlands)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: appetite supression
Date: 29 Dec 1992 16:37:16 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide)
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au
Keywords: appetite suppression,herbal

Can anyone suggest a method of appetite supression, herbal or otherwise
except modern drugs.

Dave Rowlands
rowlands@flash.pax.tpa.com.au

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: Bates therapy & lazer glasses
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 20:15:05 GMT


This Bates thing has been around for 50 years that I know about, and
probably a lot longer than that.  Surely, if there was something to
it, there should be lots of evidence by now.  If not, why not?
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<BSIMON.92Dec23072656@elvis.stsci.edu>
	<1992Dec23.142720.18825@dgbt.doc.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:57:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.142720.18825@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted
Grusec) writes:

   Are you implying that non-homeopathic approaches are lacking
   individuation of medicine or treatment?

The point I was trying to make in my posting is that homeopaths do not
think that one homeopathic medicine will help everyone having a
certain disease, such as AIDS. Instead they believe that the medicine
must be chosen according to the symptoms the patient has. Homeopathic
physicians believe that each patient has a single best medicine and
try to find that medicine.

The individuation of the medicine according to the symptoms of the
patient gives the homeopathic physician a procedure for choosing a
single medicine that is not present in other systems of medicines. For
example, a herbalist knows that many herbs are sedatives, but has no
hard rule for deciding which herb to prescribe for insomnia.
Similarly, an allopathic physician distinguishes between sinus and
migraine headaches and will prescribe different medicines for each. To
this extent allopathy practices individuation of medicine. But there
are several different medicines that can be used to treat migraines
and the allopathic physician has no hard and fast rule to choose one
over the other. So he or she usually tries one after another until one
works. In contrast, a homeopath will ask the patient suffering from
migraines a series of questions such as: "when does the headache
occur?", "which side is it on?", "is there nausea?", "are there visual
disturbances?", and choose a homeopathic medicine based on the
answers. Thus the individuation of the prescription is finer in
homeopathy than in allopathy or other systems of medicine.

All of this does not show that homeopathy is a better medical system
than others, of course. That is determined by the speed and
effectiveness of the treatment and the absence of side effects. No
system of medicine is best for all problems and no system of medicine
cures all of its patients. A good physician will refer his or her
patient to a practitioner of another system when it is in the best
interest of the patient.

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: allopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:35:35 GMT

The term allopathy was coined by Dr. Hahnemann, who named his own
system of medicine homeopathy. Homeopathy means that the disease is
cured by a medicine causing similar symptoms to the disease (Homeo =
same). Allopathy is a system of medicine where the disease is cured by
a medicine bearing some other relation to the disease (Allo = other).
Some other "pathys" are osteopathy (osteo = bone) and naturopathy
(nature). 

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:28:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


>Keep in mind that the most popular uses for homeopathy are where
>allopathy has nothing to offer, such as chronic conditions and
>viruses.  There is nothing to lose in tryinh it in these cases.

It's an old pattern: people with no hope will turn to anything for
comfort. As medicine learns how to treat the conditions, homeopathy
will retreat from them. Example-in-the-making: What is the homeopathic
treatment for cystic fibrosis? What will become of it if the gene
therapy for CF now under test is shown to work?

And there is something to lose: money and time. Desperate people
can bankrupt themselves and their dependents chasing rainbows, or
waste precious months that might have increased their chances for
survival.

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Subject: Re: Vitamins
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 03:47:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.051720.15419@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jblackwo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J P Blackwood) writes:
>I have found that many multi-vitamins available on the market either make me 
>foggy/depressed or make my joints hurt or both.
>Rainbow Light vitamins do not? Does anyone know what the culprit might be??
>I am looking for good vitamins, Rainbow Lights are very expensive.

I have a problem getting wired up on most multivitamins. Recently I
latched onto a bottle of SOLGAR (Since 1947) Earth Source [multi-nutrient
providing whole food concentrates - nature's energy - Vegetarian Formula]
(from the label). $16.20/60 tablets - 3/day recommended. I have heard that
this vitamin offers a very advanced formulation that includes many
natural dietary supplements and concentrated food extracts:
:
bee pollen, barley and wheat grass juice - dried, spirulina, ginseng, garlic,
flaxseed oil, chlorella, enzymes and digestive aids, borage and sunflower 
oil, herbs: echinacea, ginkgo biloba, ginger root, cayenne, goldenseal, milk
thistle
:
Although I never take as many as three a day, I have found this multivitamin
to be highly effective and beneficial when taken on a regular basis. It is
also very mild. 

Lawrence

london@sunsite.unc.edu
From: gordon@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:30:02 GMT

madhavn@madhavn.mentorg.com (Madhav Nerurkar) writes:


>Is there a simple decisive test in modern medicine that will determine if
>a given alternative theory has some merits ?

I don't think so.  We can't even be sure in many cases, that an allopathic
treatment will work, eg., surgery and/or radiation and/or chemotherapy for 
some types of cancer.

>There can be significant lag, even of lifetimes, between empirical 
>observations and an understanding of the underlying mechanisms. Without a
>test won't we either run the risk of passing up on real opprtunities or
>run the risk of taken in by a scam.

There are many scams in both the alternative modalities as well as the currentlyaccepted modality.

>If in fact such a test exists, is it applied to inventions in modern
>medicines or is it basically the prestige of the institutions that decides
>the outcome ? 

I want to play rabbi here and answer a question with a question.  When an 
epidemiologist says that 50,000 people will `catch` the current flu virus, is
he/she making a prediction or rather because a professional in authority is
making an edict, will people comply by getting the flu? 

-- 
Allen Gordon 		         *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate         	 *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gordon@tramp.colorado.edu   	 *toads, each would be more intelligent than  *
				 *Aristotle				      *
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: cooper@cadsys.enet.dec.com (Topher Cooper)
Subject: Natural Cat Flea Remedy Request
Keywords: Cats, Fleas
Reply-To: Cooper@cadsys.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Hudson MA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:44:45 GMT



Does anyone have a good herbal remedy for fleas on a cat.  My friend, whose
cat this is for, has already tried (without success) brewers' yeast and garlic, 
and is deathly (potentially literally) alergic to chrysanthemums and so that
is out.

Thanks.

                                           Topher

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: phoffman@orac.holonet.net (Paul E. Hoffman)
Subject: Ayurveda
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access BBS: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:46:25 GMT

I'm very interested in ayurveda, the ancient Indian (as in India) practice
of food, herbs, and lifestyle. I've been practicing it for about six
months and it has given me much deeper understanding of myself as well
as better digestion, better sleep, and more calmness.

I've started a free newsletter listing ayurvedic sources that I'll upload
soon. It is terribly incomplete, and I'd love to hear about more that is
not in it.

>>Paul Hoffman
-- 
||  Why quote someone else?  ||
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: gordon@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R)
Subject: Re: TCM
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 22 Dec 92 17:47:00 GMT

cycy+@cs.cmu.edu (Cowboy) writes:

>As a start, I want to point out the accupunture is a technique of Traditional
>Chinese Medicine, not separate from it. Also included would be different types
>of massage and Chinese herbal formulae. It is a system which is in common use
>throughout Asia, including in Japan, along with western medicine, and I believe
>it is the oldest medical system in existence. It can also be very complicated.

>							-- Chris.


Not only are the methods of treatment as listed above quite different than 
allopathy, the methods of diagnosis have to be included in the list as being
a part of TCM.  They too differ from allopathic diagnostic methods.  

It is curious to me that two such different systems, TCM and western allopathy,
can describe and treat the same organism.  It would indeed be a challenge to 
find a way of reconciling the two systems.  


-- 
Allen Gordon 		         *If the folly of but one of us was changed to*
Research Associate         	 *intelligence, and divided amongst a thousand*
gordon@tramp.colorado.edu   	 *toads, each would be more intelligent than  *
				 *Aristotle				      *
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: jim@egret.ess.harris.com (Jim Mitchell)
Subject: Dry-eye/Dry-mouth syndrome (Sjorgen's?)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:17:28 GMT
Reply-To: jim@egret.ess.harris.com
Organization: Harris Corp, ISD


Hi, I posted this request to sci.med.nutrition before this group
was formed.  I think this is "a better place to be" for the
question...

I hope this group has some ideas.  Have you heard of Dry-eye/dry-mouth 
syndrome?  Does low relative humidity exacerbate the symptoms?  Is there
a way to hydrate the body that will alleviate the symptoms, somewhat?
My friend uses a treatment (added to distilled water) that claims to 
make the water "wetter" (glycerin-type additive?).  I could collect more
info if I knew what kind of info would help ... comments???

-jdm-

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 08:05:23 GMT

In article <sandrock.725640765@aries> sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes:
>How very "scientific" of a view. It's sure to impress many people nowadays!
>The same sort of argument is used to "refute" astrology as well.

I certainly hope so!  Good Lord.

Or did you mean "astronomy?"

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: ScotSoft Research
	<1h7grbINNnoc@skat.usc.edu> <BSIMON.92Dec22130323@elvis.stsci.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:56:34 GMT

In article <BSIMON.92Dec22130323@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:

   However, a number of controlled, double blind studies have
   been performed which show the effectiveness of homeopathic medicine in
   treating a number of diseases. The following is a brief list of some
   of these studies.

   D.T. Reilly, M.A. Taylor, C.McSharry et al., "Is Homeopathy a
   Placebo Response? Controlled Trial of Homeopathic Potency with Pollen
   in Hayfever as Model," Lancet (1986):881-886.

   J.P. Ferley, D.Zimirou, D. D'Adhemar, et al., "A Controlled
   Evaluation of a Homeopathic Preparation in the Treatment of
   Influenza-like Syndromes," British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology,
   27(1989):329-35. 

   P.Fischer, A.Greenwood, E.C.Huskisson, et al., "Effect of
   Homeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis (Primary Fibromyalgia)," British
   Medical Journal 299(1989):365-366.

   E.Ernst, T.Saradeth, and K.L.Resch, "Complementary Treatment of
   Varicose Veins: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled, Double-Blind Trial,"
   Phlebology (1990): 157-163.

   Kleijnen, Jos, Knipschild, Paul, ter Riet, Gerben, "Clinical trials of
   Homoeopathy.", British Medical Journal, Feb 9, 1991 v302 n6772
   p516(8).

Have you actually read any of these, Bernie? I found the last one
particularly interesting.  It's a meta analysis (a study of studies)
of the quality of homeopathy trials. It was very critical of most
trials, calling their methodology *poor*. They were also concerned
with the possible role of publication bias (which they stated could
not be determined at present.) The strongest statement in favor of
homeopathy came when they said it could make a  case for further
evaluation.  Hardly a hue and cry for its effectiveness. In fact, the
positive trend statistics in the paper (on which they base their
opinion that homeopathy should be considered for further trials) came
from lumping together *ALL* trials, both questionable and
unquestionable.

While it's nice of you to put this somewhat critical of homeopathy
trials paper in your list of references, it's rather misleading of you to
describe it as a demonstrating "the effectiveness of homeopathic
medicine in treating a number of diseases".

sdb
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative