HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:32:17 -0500 
From: Priti Shah <ps3t+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
	<1k3k0tINNo7s@menudo.uh.edu>
Distribution: usa

The negative comments about interethnic dating between Indians (and
those of Indian origin) and people of other backgrounds (white,
african-american, latino, etc.) have been shocking, irritating, and even
painful for me.  There is absolutely no reason why we, as Indians and
Indian-Americans should attack the lifestyle choices that some of us
make.  Perhaps the only thing that we all have in common is a cultural
conflict, and perhaps that should help us tolerate each other's
decisions (as well as culture!)-- we are certainly not alike in
political beliefs, religion, etc.  People put a lot of thought into the
decisions which they make.

There are certainly potential advantages to dating someone from the same
cultural/ethnic background.  For example, both partners might both like
the same food, more easily understand "Indian families" (both the good
aspects as well as the not-so-good), etc.  I feel that while many of
these cultural similarities are convenient and would sometimes make my
life easier, they are also relatively superficial (admitting that there
are other, less superficial reasons, such as religion, which might lead
one to choosing other II/IA's).

It seems strange for me to see many of my Indian-American friends and
acquiantances marrying people who have different religious beliefs,
political beliefs, social beliefs, educational levels (sometimes),
intelligence (my friends are usually smarter!) who they have only met a
few times, in order to marry someone simply because they are Indian. 
Perhaps I am angry because I am expected to do the same.  While it is
possible that marrying another Indian may be the most comfortable,
logical choice for a particular person, why condemn those who choose the
alternatives? 

It may not be the wisest choice to exclude from one's "search" the
majority of the people around you: your friends of many backgrounds, who
you study with, participate in political activity with, worship with (or
revel in atheism with!), etc.  I am in a very happy relationship with
a... I don't quite know how to phrase it...a white American of mixed
origin.  We share intellectual, political, social, life dreams; we
respect and participate actively in each other's cultural traditions;
and we love and support each other.  Our families are also supportive
(or at least, accepting).  We are, in short, very happy.

I respond to the series of comments with some bitterness and irritation
because our lives (and our children's, when we have them) might be just
a little easier if there were less hostility towards us in the Indian
community. 

Priti
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:18:31 EST
From: Radhakrishna Reddy <RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Divorce Rate (was Dissension ...)
 <1993Jan22.012159.15875@news.vanderbilt.edu>
 <1993Jan22.183412.18395@midway.uchicago.edu> <1jseo9$gu2@agate.berkeley.edu>

I am really starting to get annoyed at this 50% rate of divorce that is
quoted everywhere I look.  My understanding is that these figures are
reached by counting the number of divorces in a year and then comparing them
to the number of new marriages.  So the number of divorces include the
marriages from the previous years.  Why aren't they included in the figures?
I mean if the divorce rate was 50-70% you would see a lot more divorced
people running around.  The divorce rate figures have been above 20% for at
least 10 years, yet most people I know have not had a divorce in their
family(when I say most it is definitely over 85%).  And I am not just
talking about people my age (17-22).  BTW, if I'm wrong, please just correct
my mistake(I always admit when I'm wrong).




                                             Sincerely,
                                               Krishna
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Equality of Man
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:13:37 GMT

Rakesh says
>I don't think anybody has to be taught equality of man.  It is just
>an innate feeling.

I wish.  Sorry, Rakesh, but I think history bears me out in claiming
that the majority of humanity does not and never has believed in
equality of man (not to mention the inherent assumptions in the phrase
itself.... what of women?  children?

 - Amirthi (who was seriously upset to find out the other day that the
KKK has a tv show on cable....I mean, I support freedom of
speech....but I wish people would stop giving money to these bigots so
they couldn't afford public-access cable)

-- 
We may affirm absolutely that nothing great in the world has ever been
accomplished without passion.

					 - George Hegel
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.indian
From: vijaypai@owlnet.rice.edu (Vijay Sadananda Pai)
Subject: Re: Loyalty to Who (was Dissension...)
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:15:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.201832.28488@news.vanderbilt.edu>, MARDHEMS@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu () writes:
|> In <C19FpC.3C@rice.edu> vijaypai@owlnet.rice.edu writes:
|> > The Republicans have been overwhelmingly pro-Pak and anti-Indian
|> > in their terms in government...[more politics, deleted]...
|> 
|> > So, if you want to support bigots and Pakistanis, that's fine by me,
|> > but you'll be responsible when some Christian fanatic wins the
|> > Presidency here or when Kashmir and Punjab are taken away from
|> > the motherland.
|>
|> 	I don't make my voting decisions based on the candidate's attitudes
|> toward India, and I think that if you're a citizen or resident of the US, then
|> your first loyalty must be to THIS nation.  

Every American who voted did so based at least partially on his/her
candidate's views on Iraq, Bosnia, and Somalia. So, why won't you let
the candidates' views on India filter into the equation?

Here you were talking about Indian pride, and you're willing to place
more importance on 3rd world countries with (respectively) oil,
civil strife, and starvation, than on the one with the 2nd
largest body of English-speaking scientists and engineers in the
world?

Just because we're not invading India doesn't mean that it is
irrelevant to foreign policy. Especially for us. After all, most
of us have relatives in India, and part of our own self-interest is
in helping them out.

|> 
|> 	I find it helpful to think of it like this: Our bond with India is a
|> bond of RACE and CULTURE, and not of political ideology.  We must do whatever
|> is necessary to preserve our race and culture (and as some of you have noted, I
|> do my part) but, we must also not become another special interest group.
|> 

You can't have pride in Indian race and culture without also
having feelings about the Indian nation. It doesn't matter whether
you support Rao or Advani or Singh -- just that you agree that
India is relevant ... after all, if it wasn't, what would be
the point of this newsgroup? We could just call it
alt.culture.us.blank if India was irrelevant to Indian-Americans.

Once again, my $.02

-- vp
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: dsb@godzilla.pi.macsch.com (Deepak Brar)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: MSC, Los Angeles
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 18:50:48 GMT

MARDHEMS@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu () writes:
 
|>         In my home state of Alabama, most people oppose intermarriage for a
|> variety of reasons, mostly due to old-line racist thoughts.  But what's wrong
|> with saying that our community won't be the same if everyone marries people
|> of different races?  It's not a large leap of logic to see where this will
|> ultimately lead.
|> 
|>

I must be stupid or something, because it *IS* a large leap of logic for me.
I've heard you say that this modern horror of interracial marriage will
lead to the destruction of society. Now you say its not hard to see where
it will lead. Would you please elaborate exactly on what abysmal
consequences you are so afraid of, the form they will take, the results,
etc.?

|> 	For me personally, if any of my children decide that they want to bring
|> home a boy or girl of a different race for my approval, I would absolutely
|> forbid such a thing.  If they disregard their culture, heritage, race, and
|> upbringing, and marry anyway, they will certainly no longer be a part of my
|> household.
|> 	

Exactly what I had to put up with. I feel sorry for your future kids, although
it is you who will feel the loss most after they are "no longer a part of
your household."

|> 
|> 				Sincerely,
|> 
|> 
|> 					Maneesh
From: Lynn.E.Noel@dartmouth.edu (Lynn E Noel)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Songs of the Subcontinent?
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:11:39 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

At a recent morris party, we got on a roll of "exotic-destination"
songs -- Away Rio, Bound for South Australia, Old Maui, &c &c. This led
naturally to "colonies" songs: Black Velvet Band, CaneCutters' Lament,
Scarborough Settler's Lament, Queensland Drovers, &c &c. Our host's
mother, an East Asian scholar of some repute, wondered why there were
so few songs in the British Isles tradition from British India -- after
twenty of us had been unable to come up with a single example. 
Australians, Canadians, even us Yanks have our collections of
Anglo-Celtic lore and songs written in the British Isles tradition; and
the rich cross-pollination of Africa, South America and Europe have
given us North Americans plenty of gospel, Latin, calypso and reggae in
our "traditional" harmony singing.

Where is India? As a geographer, singer and collector, this intrigues
me. Was the work so different that the work songs didn't travel, or
didn't get written? (Sheep don't do well in the jungle, we understand.)
Where are the songs of the tea plantations, or of the soldiers marching
to war during the Raj? Was the conflict, culltural or political, so
distasteful that the folk history has been suppressed? Did the
bourgeois class that went out to India just not sing/write folk songs?
Was the music so different that there was no cross-cultural balladry or
harmony? Were the forms too foreign to adapt? Or am I missing
something? India was Britain's largest possession for a long time.
There is white space on my musical and mental map.

Can anyone give examples of any of the following? We are particularly
interested in songs that have survived, or been revived, in the oral
tradition. "Mirrors" of any of these genres in Asian languages would be
most interesting as well!

%  songs written in English in India during the British Raj
%Jwork songs of British workers in India, or of workers in colonial
activities 
%Jsongs that mention India as a destination or an origin, or contain
Indian placenames
%Jmodern songs that deal with colonial society in British India
%Jsongs in the Indian tradition(s) that touch on the colonial period

If there are empty categories, why? RSVP to end our bafflement! Thanks.

Lynn E. Noel
Research Fellow, Atlantic Centre for the Environment
lynn.e.noel@dartmouth.edu

"The care of rivers is not a question of rivers, but of the human
heart."  Tanaka Shozo
From: arun@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Arun Achyuthan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Kottayam, Kollam & Pazhassi Raja
Date: 28 Jan 93 14:50:57 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Waterloo

There is a place called Kollam near Vadakara in Kozhikode dist.
It is also known as Panthalaayani-Kollam, owing to the
historic significance of Panthalaayani. Now, don't ask me
what is that significance, since I don't remember it. But I do
remember that in my high school history classes I did come
across a Panthalaayani.

The Kottayam in malabar is now in KaNNoor district. Pazhassi
Raja was also known as Kottayatthu Thampuraan. Kottayathu
Thampuraan is also attributed to be the father of KathakaLi
movement. His aattakkathas are known as Kottayam kathakaL
("kiRmeera vadham" is one of them). Though many people argue 
that this Kottayathu Thampuran and the famous Pazhassi Raja 
are one and the same, I am not sure if historians have really 
come to an agreement on this issue.

--Arun Achyuthan
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: aknair@eng.auburn.edu (Ajit K. Nair)
Subject: Re: Tippu Sultan - some speculation
Reply-To: aknair@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:04:37 GMT

> When I was in 8 std, 
>there was a lesson about a King who ruled from Quilon (near Calicut), I
>forget his name, but the time frame was also the same near about 1800 or so.
>And if my memory is correct, his entire small tiny kingdom was beseiged
>by the same Duke's army for months together. Does anyone remember this?

It was in the English text of 8 th std.The only thing which comes to my mind is that there was reference to a place called Kottayam somewhere in the Malabar area(!).It could have been Pazhassi Raja as Arun had mentioned.

Ajit Nair
From: vallath@vishnu.labs.tek.com (Vallath Nandakumar )
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Music and Lyrics
Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:17:13 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

At the risk of irritating Reji Matthew from Australia,  I have
to post once more about modern lyrics, especially since I
posted strongly against them.  I stand corrected to some
extent, since the songs in Nakhakshathangal (like
man~n~aprasAdavum nettiyil chArti) were in general good, and
some were even appropriate to the scene in the movie.
And some of the other guys mentioned a different way of looking
at them, as simply songs, rather than movie songs.  

I don't watch many movies, but I was thinking of the numerous
songs in the various Malayalam dialects, for example,
"kAyalarikattu" in the mApla dialect and "mArkazhiyil
mallikapoottAl" in the hill tribe dialect, and such songs
don't seem to be common these days.

To satisfy the serious minded, is that idiot Karunakaran dead
or what?  I heard a while ago he had come to the US for a
serious operation.  His reckless driving is responsible for
several deaths and injuries, and I can't say that I will mourn
his passing.

Vallath Nandakumar
From: indran@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: Tippu Sultan - some speculation
Date: 26 Jan 93 07:42:55 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

> 
> I thought Tippu Sultan's progress into Kerala was halted at Sultan's
> Battery. When one drives down from Banglore via that route, one
> descends upon Sultan's Battery very soon after one crosses the border.
> Presuming that the Sultan took a similar route from Karnataka, he could
> have had control only over a very small portion of Kerala & so he
> couldn't possibly have destroyed too many temples in the region.


I think he came some where close to Cochin (Chalakudi ?). 
 Many of the Hindu families on the 
way were converted into Islam by force. The places he visited 
include Nelamboor, Bapoor, Malapuram, Ponanni, and all of 
them are Muslim dominated places of todays Kerala.
.ravi
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: rxr00@cas.org ()
Subject: Old Songs
Reply-To: rxr00@cas.org
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:57:14 GMT

	Could somebody post the lyrics for the following songs?
	
	  Neelagiriyude sakhigale, jwaalamukhigale
	  Chethi manthaaram dhulasi
	  Annuninde nunakuzhi thelinjittilla
	  Kudamullapoovinum malayaalipenninum
	  
	Thanks to anybody who can help.
	
	Ravi  
	  

Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: aknair@eng.auburn.edu (Ajit K. Nair)
Subject: Re: Sambar
Reply-To: aknair@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:38:50 GMT



>In article AA02938@wampyr.cc.uow.edu.au, annie@cc.uow.edu.au (annie george) writes:
>Here is a simple way of making sambar (a la Madras! )
.......
.......

>6] 1/6 tsp tamarind concentrate
>	OR
>   1/4 cup tamarind liquid of normal strength
>7] 1/6 tsp vendhyam (optional)
            ^^^^^^^^
Could u tell me what vendhyam is?


>Annie.

Ajit Nair.


Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: pjn+@cs.cmu.edu (P J Narayanan)
Subject: Re: The origin of the species
Followup-To: alt.culture.kerala
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:41:09 GMT

In article <C18GM7.40x@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mchundat@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mathai Chundattu) writes:
>I dont think the regional variations in accent and manner of speaking
>will go away with the spreading of formal education. One major factor
>for education having no effect on this kind of variations is that even
>highly educated people speak most of the time in the peculiar style of
>their native place. Only during very formal occasions do they use the
>correct pronunciation of malayalam as found in textbooks.

I don't want the regional variations to go away! In fact, I would
think it as an irreparable loss if they did. However, with increased
communications, as you suggested, these variations will diminish.  And
what formal education and akAshavANi have given us is that one
"textbook" language used in formal occasions. Hundred years ago, most
people didn't have it or know it. They only knew their regional/community
variant of the langauge.

>And I think this variations make our language livelier. How many stories
>have been written about the honey-mixed malayalam of a trichur girl!

Most certainly!

>mathew

PJN

-- 
---
Robotics Institute, CMU			pjn@cs.cmu.edu
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
---
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: saptho@ee.umn.edu (Sapthotharan K Nair (grad student))
Subject: Re: Chettimantharam (CORRECTION)^2
Organization: Electrical Engineering, U of MN, Mpls.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:45:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.183452.10131@iscsvax.uni.edu> eswaran3372@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>In article <1jqh02INN6ce@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, chidi@eng.umd.edu (Chidi Subramanian) writes:
>> Here is the lyric of "Chettimantharam .."
>                        ^^^^^^
>> 	Chettimantharam thulasi pichchaka malakal charthi
>        ^^^^^^
>
>I think there is a slight mistake here. Instead of Chetti, it should be 
>Thetchi. (I believe thetchi is a plant and, here in this usage, the flower
>of that plant. Chetti, as far as I know, is a derogatory term for a parti-
>cular group of people who speak Tamil. Well, don't take this at the face
>value. I am one of the rankest amatuers in linguistics)
>
>Sasi Mullappalli Eswaran.

     The correct word as sung in the movie song is "Chetthi"
     or "Chetti" whichever spelling you prefer. Chetthi is
     a herb with pretty bunches of tiny  red flowers. The
     'tth' in "Chetthi" must be pronounced as that in 
     "patthu" (meaning "ten"). Chetti- pronounced with 'tt'
     as in "pattu" (silk) refers to a caste of South India.
     (could be a  derogatory word in some regions - I don't
     know of any)

       -  Saptho

Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: jacobt@nynexst.com (Jacob Thomas)
Subject: Re: Music and Lyrics
Reply-To: jacobt@nynexst.com
Organization: NYNEX Science & Technology, Inc
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:51:15 GMT

In article 25JAN199315555287@rosie.uh.edu, mece21x@rosie.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael) writes:
>A friend of mine told me that once upon a time, the lyrics were written first
>and the music was given accordingly. (for Malayalam film songs) But nowadays
>it is the other way. Music first and the lyrics are adjusted to fit the music,
>and so they are senseless.

There are senseless lyrics, and then there are beautiful lyrics. It all depends
on the talent of the one who writes it. ONV and and Yusafali, for example, who
are also very talented poets, write extremely good lyrics. Being poets, their
lyrics are a little 'controlled', and take a some effort sometimes to assimilate
and enjoy.

Of course, neither has the brilliance of the late Vayalaar for writing
movie lyrics. Vayalar grew up in the ChannGampuzha tradition and knew how
to blend the right words to intoxicate the masses.
  
>
>Sincerely
>Michael

Jacob
-----
From: mece21x@rosie.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: Music and Lyrics
Date: 26 Jan 1993 17:34 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C1H64A.n4J@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, mchundat@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mathai Chundattu) writes...
>In article <25JAN199315555287@rosie.uh.edu> mece21x@rosie.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael) writes:
>>A friend of mine told me that once upon a time, the lyrics were written first
>>and the music was given accordingly. (for Malayalam film songs) But nowadays
>>it is the other way. Music first and the lyrics are adjusted to fit the music,
>>and so they are senseless.
> 
>Senseless?!!!
> 
>What makes you think that if poets adjust lyrics to fit the music they
>become senseless? Writing songs in my opinion is just fiting the music

The lyrics are senseless (without sense). Not the ones who write the lyrics.
Lingo problem! Sorry!!

> 
>mathew
>-- 

Sincerely
Michael

> 
>
From: mathew5@evans.ee.adfa.oz.au (Mathew)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
Subject: just testing
Date: 22 Jan 1993 23:40:36 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

hello there every one for down under



reji kuruvilla mathew
 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: sajith@athena.mit.edu (Varghese Thannickal)
Subject: Re: Republic Day ???
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: world 
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:39:33 GMT

In article <9301261147.AA25422@evans.ee.adfa.oz.au> mathew5@evans.ee.adfa.oz.au (Mathew) writes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Look at India today. Still in poverty and needless suffering. What have we 
>gained? What have we achieved?
>
>We are so proud of India being a democracy but it is a democracy without 
>discipline. A democracy that allows one to vote but not to eat. 
>
>It is a country full of polititians. Polititions with many promises but 
>little vision.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 You hit the nail on the head, Regi.

 IMHO, democracy ( at least in the one man one vote form ) is an idealistic 
concept, which assumes that all people greater than the voting age can make
equally mature decisions about the way a country is to be governed. 
Unfortunately, this is never true, especially in India where the disparities
in education, social status, class status,etc are very wide. 
 Again, the electoral system in India assumes that anybody can assume positions
of leadership and responsibility, provided they have sufficient votes backing 
them. While this may be true in some instances, it is easily misused by people
who fire up immature voters emotions over nonissues, make empty promises they 
know they can't keep, etc. This sets up a chain reaction with even the sincere
politicians realizing that survival is more dependent on short term expedient
rather than long term vision.
 What we Indians have to do is to develop a more pragmatic political reality.
Its time to stop copying the West blindly. Voters should have to earn their 
voting power, and this power should be unequally apportioned based on their
individual capability. Politicians should earn their right to occupy positions
of power based on actual performance, than meaningless rhetoric. The higher
the position they wish to occupy, the greater should their demonstrated 
ability be.

Comments and flames welcome. 


Sajith.








Newsgroups: alt.culture.kerala
From: rags@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Raghavan Jayaraman)
Subject: Re: Once upon a time....
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:36:53 GMT

I have to accept with the author that the  fracture of plastics is quite well
understood in presence of all mediums except ghee. So if the author is
ready to provide me with the 'halwa'  and some 'funding' I am  ready to do some
"mind-boggling" research:-)

raghavan