HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re:  When Axioms Collide (anyone bought it?)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:05:53 GMT

Rick writes:

> 	Well, it's been out a week, and I guess Ks Jim's too busy
> to review it.  (I assume he bought it, since he buys _everything_. ;-)

Yes, I did buy it but I've actually been away from work (and the
computer) for most of the last week so I haven't had time to type up a
detailed review.  (And Rick seems to have forgotten that I already
told him via email that I picked it up when it came out...but I still
haven't received last month's Infiniverse so I guess its time to call
WEG and bitch them out again.)

> 	My players decided they wanted to go to the Cyberpapacy, and
> so I was wondering if it was any good.
> 	(IMHO, this was a bad thing to do, considering the party makeup)
> 	A Gaean Gypsy Occultist/Spirit Medium 
> 	A Soviet Psi (in his words "a godless Communist")
> 	A Jewish Cowboy  
> 	A Aysle Sorceress
> 	an Athiet LAPD-er
> 	and a Protestant Wierd Scienist

There's a lot of nasty Cyberpapal opponents to deal with but I don't
remember if they say what miracles they get.  Unbeliever's Doom would
certainly mess this group up...you are going to want a decker of some
kind in the group; an NPC decker will work, but it won't be as much
fun since a lot of the interesting stuff happens in the GodNet.

If I get some free time tonight I'll pop home, grab the module (and
some dinner 8-), and get a review done tonight (maybe I'll even
remember to send off the FAQ list tonight too.)

> 	I finally came up with a name for the group.
> 
> 	Kindling

LOL!  There's a couple of bonfire scenes in the module....

"She's a witch!  Burn 'er!"

Kansas Jim (jogle@aoc.nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "James H. Kiley" <jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu>
Subject: The Gods and the Possibility Wars
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Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 15:26:19 GMT

	I have some simple thoughts regarding the Gods of the various places 
and the wars.  By Gods I do *not* mean folks like Apeiros, the Nameless One,
etc, I tend to think of them more as 'meta-gods' or 'proto-gods' or something
of that nature, the gods of the gods as it were.
	My reference here is folk like Dunad, Lanala, and hell, even the 
Cyberpapal One True God Jehovah, or whatever they call 'im.  Why don't they
get involved directly?  Okay, I mean, I can accept that if the gods get
directly involved in the wars on one side or the other (excepting of course
the Walking Gods of the Nile and other avatars) then their opposition will
also get involved, so they only work through their mortal agents.  But what
about later in the war?  
	Let's say, as a f'rinstance, that the Warrior of the Dark was on the 
verge of Torgdom.  I realize that the Gods  try to remain aloof and
neutral, but they've gotta know that acheiving Torgdom brings the Nameless One
home to roost, bringing about the destruction of the cosmverse.  I mean,
EVERYTHING.  Now, it strikes me that Dunad, being a rather interventionist
type, might just stick his little finger into the cake and squash the WOTD
like the leetle bug she is in comparison. (For those of you that don't think
a God can challenge a Highlord, please reread the rulesbook, the section on
direct invocation of a god, specifically under 'spectacular success')
	So, how can we justify this?
	After a few hours of polite conversation with some friends ('no, Bob,
really, put down the gun, I'm sure Dunad can do whatever he wants, really...')
we came to a sort-of conclusion.
	Namely:  In almost every Earth religion we have a myth of the 
Apocalypse, the end of the world, the end of the gods (Ragnarok, et al)
and all that fun foo.  So, we humbly put forth that the gods exist outside
the realm of possibilities.  They are, with all their power, less than
ords.  Their fates have already been decided for them, foretold or
what-have-you.  Hence, if their fate has been declared, they only have one
possibility, only one end as it were.   This natural metaphysical lack of
Possibility prevents them from acting in the Possibility Wars, at least acting
directly against the High Lords.

	Discussion/commentary/improvement on this theory is more than welcome.

Jim Kiley, Astronomer Wannabe
jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu
Mertonn@SouConMUSH
The.Gaunt.Man@TorgMUSH


Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Ord Gods?
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:10:09 GMT

[magic and tech 33 deleted]
(as far as that goes, there are as many faces to tech - cyber, bio, solar -
 as ther are possible societies, but magic 33 would seem to be a done deal)

so, point is, jim (yep, the other one, still) worries:

 ! 	Yeah, this is what I see and frankly it bugs the piddle out of me.
 ! I don't think that these Darkness Devices should be able to change Gods, and
 ! yet by tampering with the Spirit axiom as well as the religion that's what
 ! they do.

well, as far as mucking with the spirit axiom, they are only making it harder
for "god" to manifest its abilities in the cosm (or possibly easier)
but remember that it is the community that create gods with faith
(and, in TORG reality, belief = reality, even retroactively...)
so that convincing enough of the faithful of something else
not only robs the god of their belief, but creates a competing god as well...
(why do you think that gods of modern myth - comics, movies, even books -
 are all adapting to modern times?  as we change, so do our gods...)

 ! 	So you're suggesting perhaps that two or more religions might coexist 
 ! with the same God?  Ick.  I mean, it's pretty accurate, but ick. :)

each religion would have "their god", with similar beliefs empowering 
similar gods under one "meta-god" (leading, the SGs at least, to aperios?)

 ! > Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
 ! > "I'm the Chosen One.  And I choose to go shopping."
 !                                           -Buffy the Vampire Slayer
 ! I think that Rick and I must be the only people in the cosmverse, nay, the
 ! infiniverse, who liked that movie.

dave "nah, i can name two, even if KS Jim denies it" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ord Gods?
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:56:16 GMT

I mconfused negation with:

> And, as the Amberites had very little care for shadows other than
> Amber, the gods assign relatively little consqequence to the
> happenings in versions of the shadow where their divine office is
> literal, undeniable truth.

This should be, "...assign ... little consequence to ... versions ...
where their ... office is *not* ... truth."

Makes much more sense that way, I think.

Colin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
==  Colin J. Wynne                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  ==
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|      "If computers get too powerful, we can organise them          |
|            into a committee -- that will do them in."              |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Illusions outside Aysle
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Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 19:18:04 GMT

michael@stb.info.com (Michael Gersten) writes:

> Because an illusion of a bridge requires the law of observation to
> make it real, and capable of supporting weight. LOO(k) only
> operates within Aylse. Therefore, outside of Aylse it will hold no
> weight.

But I'm saying that it is not the LoObs.  The bridge is visible.  It
is real already.  Just because something is real does *not* mean that
it must satisfy its own existence to all five senses.  Are Psionics
real?  What senses do you use to justify their 'reality'?

The matter of the bridge holding weight is a function of a pattern
for the spell, not of the LoObs.

CJW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
==  Colin J. Wynne                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  ==
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|  Heaven:   A place where the French are the cooks, the German are  |
|             the engineers, and the British are the policemen.      |
|                                                                    |
|  Hell:     A place where the British are the cooks, the French are |
|             the engineers, and the German are the policemen.       |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: michael@stb.info.com (Michael Gersten)
Subject: Illusions and observation...
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:34:00 GMT

Begin forwarded message:

gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis) responds to me:

> > Just because something is real does *not* mean that it must
> > satisfy its own existence to all five senses.
>
> Yes, it does.

Alright, then.  Light is an illusion.  Smells are not real, and we're
obviously all suffering from a mass hallucination about this 'sound'
stuff.  I can't touch any of them, so they're obviously not real.
-----
Light can be seen, felt (uv and ir only); the heat it gives off can  
be smelled. The other senses do not detect it; however, it can be  
observed by these three senses, and so it is real.

The bridge that started this is real if it satisfies what you expect  
from a real bridge: sight, touch, sound, smell, taste (if you  
bother). The illusion has to support all these, or it is an illusion;  
but since you can observe it with one sense, it must be observable  
with all the other senses (i.e, if you can see it, you must be able  
to touch it, etc).
----

> > Are Psionics real?  What senses do you use to justify their
> > 'reality'?
>
> Psionics aren't illusions.

Neither are they provable by the traditional five senses.
----
Hmm, Aysle has no psionics...

(Very nice explanation of how an illusion works, btw.)

		Michael
--
		Michael Gersten		michael@stb.info.com
HELLO! I'm a signature virus! Join in the fun and copy me into yours!
ex:.-1,. w $HOME/.signature
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re: My summer vacation
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:21:27 GMT

Clay writes:

> The next trip will probably start by flying to Sante Fe, then driving
> through the four corners and ending up in the Grand Canyon.  Expect to spend
> about 5 days on that, and fly out of Flagstaff, presuming Flagstaff has an
> airport.  I reckon *if* we do this we could drop by Socorro.

Flagstaff does not, to my knowledge, have a major commercial airport
so you may have to change your plans or take a "puddle hopper" to
Phoenix or Abq. - oh yeah, Santa Fe doesn't have a major airport
either so you'd have to puddle hop from Albuquerque to fly there.

Socorro is a bit out of the way for your plans though....

> One does not think Dallas is a very pretty place when one spends one's life
> here, but a trip through New Mexico deserts will quickly correct that.

The mountainous areas are pretty green....

And Smooge replied:

> Well the first time I left Socorro for South Carolina, there came the
> quick realization that there were all these tall green things around me
> I had almost forgotten what tree's looked like. I wonder if what an
> edeinos would think of the desert (had to put a torg line in this
> conversation somewhere)

I think once an edeinos realized that there was life in the desert
(wouldn't take too long) he'd just consider it a different aspect of
Lanala and love it almost as much as the jungle home he's from.

Of course, that dry heat is going to give him heck until he prays for
that moisture miracle....

Kansas Jim (jogle@aoc.nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Ord Gods?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:25:07 GMT

well, i asked for cosmological disscussions,
so  i damn well better talki while the talkings good...

[some background for my disscussion on TORG metaphysics -
 "reality" is a hypercube, with the poles being aperios (33/33/33/33)
 and the nameless one (0/0/0/0), everything else placed according to its axioms
 not only are there 34^4 possible reality states, but there are also
 an infinite number of realities in any state, predominantly divided
 by world laws and possibilty energy availible. some realities are unsatble,
 such as a magic 0 cosm with the Aysle LoMagic, and some realities are
 very stable due to a great belief in them, not only within the "cosm"
 but between them as well (CE has pulp fiction, Aysle plays papers&paychecks).
 it is these "core realities" that concern the average TORG game,
 but obviously they arent the only ones, since it IS infinity...]

now, for the spirit axiom:

"god" in a spirit 1 cosm, should he even exist, will not be the same
as "god" in a spirit 20 cosm with all other parameters being equal -
the spirit one "god" cannot perform as well as the spirit 20
(and very likely has a much smaller following in the spirit 1 cosm)
but, since they are both exactly the same religion, the "spiritual energies"
(belief/poss/???) of the believers in both cosms form/are formed by/mirror
a spirit 33 cosm somewhere which is exactly that religions version of heaven
(which may or may not be exactly that cosm with a 33 spirit axiom -
 heaven need not mirror the temporal world, but at the same time,
 approaching a spirit 33 means coming closer to heaven, so more and more
 people will act in accordance to that reality, so the other axioms
 will go towards "heaven's")

in the Iverse, there could be an infinite number of Sacellum beliefs,
but they can all be identified as Sacellum, so all of their "heavens" 
will be minor variations on a central Heaven(Sacellum), which approches
a more central idea(l) of heaven shared by CE, MV, CP, and ???, and all
of these approach a pure spirit 33 cosm, which may or may not be aperios
(nor do corresponding "hells" approach the NO, obviously)

the major problem in all of this is that while 33^4 discrete realities
are nice and simple, the addition of whatever WLs we see fit is hard,
and the realization that there is an Iverse on top of that???
and character controlled possibilities???

dave "we left even the concept of infinity far behind a long time back" oakes
 
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@aoc.nrao.edu>
Subject: Re: Greg Porter
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:59:08 GMT

A while back someone was asking for Greg Porter's (of 3G3, TimeLords,
Corps, and Macho Women With Guns fame) email address.  It is:

porterg@gems.vcu.edu

This public service provided by...

Kansas Jim (jogle@aoc.nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re:  Pure Zone effects on Characters
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:30:13 GMT

well, having been subjected to that LB pure zone for... a while (?!?),
i can tell you what happened to our group:

the decker (myself) sat and mostly complained about his headaches
(the gm graciously kept my cyber from transforming)
and at one point actually gave into the savagery for a round
(he is NOT a combat monster, or even a combat mouse...)

the big game hunter (any other group actually have one of these?)
went over totally, beating his chest, and giving us the immortal line:
"gee, you smell terrific"
(but then he was always a macho fool at heart)

the nile engineer entered a second puberty,
trying to keep up with the antics of the big game hunter,
but his age and his nile morals kept getting in the way...
(but spectacularly funny too)

the nile amazon came closest to "raging jungle slut"
(though the big game hunter took first, hands down)
she got a little savage, and worked with it, WITHIN CHARACTER
she lost just enough to be sexy, no more (but that is as far as any should go)
she was still an amazon, still gave the men shit, still did it her way
(until ungrosh noticed her fay-raye-esque hair...)

so what does this all mean?
no world law can make you something you arent

they can influence actions, and possibly restrict Ords (nile),
but a character is the sum total of their experience and mindset,
and while those might have depended on their local axioms,
removal of those axioms does not mean the character gets a lobotomy,
and suddenly starts acting like "Native-typeA, Land Below"

(in other words, the short skirt and bare midrift were perfect,
 but it doesnt mean she was enjoying being naked...)

dave "just a Sacellum priest at a Lanala love-in" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Guns *sigh*
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 04:42:09 GMT

On Sep 4, 10:05am, Burton Choinski wrote:
> At first I planned to re-figure weapons using 3G, starting with the Nile
> and Core Earth.  It looked good, like it might be somewhat consistant.
> 
> Then we got the Cyberpapacy SB.
> 
> Now, with the Nile guns I could base things like powder used, etc, off
> RL guns in the armory book.  But looking at these (and I don't even want to
> consider Tharkold or Spaaaaaaace Goooooods weapons), I don't know where to
> start.
> 
> Sean, do you have any suggestions?
> 
> I am now looking at taking the existing DV ratings of the guns, backing out
> the autofire DV add for those weapons that are autofire, and wedging in my
> stuff (Autofire DM to hit +3 to +5, depending on type of weeapon).

When I deal with a set of weapon stats that do not have analogues in
the 'Real World', what I generally do is figure out what I want the
weapons to be able to do in relation to weapons which _do_ have
real-world analogues, and then run the equations through backwards to
get the design parameters. Once I have the basic design parameters, I
can then tweak them into something a little more clean for gaming
with. 

The problem is complicated by the way that _Torg_ handles tech levels;
there is enough internal inconsistencies to make doing any kind of
direct technological extrapolation.

-- 
random sig #9:
Sean Malloy                                  | Any sufficiently high technology
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | is indistinguishable from
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     | doubletalk.
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        |
From: "James H. Kiley" <jkiley@andy.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New name for Jim Kiley
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:26:45 GMT



On Wed, 9 Sep 1992, Michael Yacht wrote:

> Heh, Jeez Jim (The other, not-so-omniscient Jim) did ya have to personally
> respond to every post on the topic! :) :) :)

	Well, yeah... At last a topic that I have an integral part in 
discussing... :)

> Hehe, anyways, from here-to forth, Jim Kiley is to be referred as JimBob.
> 
> Personal reasons spouting from a REALLY boring champions game at GenCon.

Hee, hee, hee...

> Mike "Hi, I'm Bob!" Yacht  aka Mikey

JimBob "Look.  I KNOW you're full of sh*t..." Kiley
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 00:40:27 MDT
From: Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim) <jogle@edu.nrao.aoc>
Reply-To: torg@edu.unt.cnns.morticia (Torg Mailing List)
Errors-To: cluther@edu.unt.cnns.morticia
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To: torg@edu.unt.cnns.morticia
Subject: Shatterzone

According to the guys on GEnie, Shatterzone will use "basically" the 
same mechanics as TORG and it will have a Drama Deck.  (Hey, now all
..
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Peter A. Schott <pact_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re: Silk?!?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:53:42 GMT

> 
> Silk? This character wouldn't happen to be a roguish type from
> Aysle who has his fingers in half the financial dealings on the 
> planet, would he?
> 
Actually, he's probably just a prince travelling around.  (Maybe originally
from Aysle, but converted to Nippon and acting as a free agent. :)