From: kim@guppy.uucp (Isaac Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: golf shoes
Date: 26 Dec 1992 03:42:51 GMT
Organization: UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: guppy.ucsd.edu

Jim,

Before I reply, I would also like to apologize for the heavily 
sarcastic and sometimes rude nature of my posts.  I was also writing
these late at night and got upset at what I thought were comments
from a "judgmental" rich guy who thought golf should only be 
for the well off.  I was wrong about you.  Sorry.  It is always good 
to hear about someone else who is so concerned about keeping golf 
courses in good condition.  I applaud your effort in educating the 
masses about proper golf course etiquette.  I try to do my best at 
this as well, but sometimes there are just too many new golfers out 
there.  But, this is not a reason to give up.   

Have a happy new year, and maybe your handicap continue to spiral
downwards in 1993,

Isaac 

In article <2934359673.1.p00168@psilink.com> "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:>>   Isaac Kim <kim@guppy.uucp>

>Can most players do better with golf shoes?  I think they can, 
>and you think that they are not worth the bother.  So be it.

Agreed.  I am sure I am in the minority when it comes to evaluating
the importance of golf shoes to one's golf game.  Most of the good 
players I know play with golf shoes.  A few, like my self, play in 
tennis shoes.  I am very lucky to be playing in San Diego where the 
golf courses are generally bone-dry so I can wear tennis shoes all
of the time.  If I lived in Vancouver or Seattle, I might think 
differently.

If you think golf shoes will help your game, by all means wear them.
The game is tough enough without one more thing to worry about.

>>Again, if you want to wear golf shoes, go ahead.  I don't care.  Just 
>
>You seem not only to care, but have decided that golf shoes are at the
>core of bad golf..

I just mentioned one possible swing flaw which could be masked by 
wearing golf shoes.  I don't think they are at the "core of bad golf."
What's at the "core of bad golf" is an improper weight shift.  
Too much sway (possibly aided by golf shoes) is much better than
not enough weight shift which is still better than the dreaded
reverse weight shift.  All of these, of course, need to be corrected
for someone to hit it well consistently.
             
>Shortly, I intend to start a 5-part post on golf etiquette. 
>One of the sections will deal with
>respect for the course.  As you may have noticed in the side posts to this
>thread, it has been at least suggested (I have partially confirmed, but the
>issue is not yet decided) that spikeless shoes do more damage (for a variety
>of reasons) than spiked.  It has also been claimed in reverse.  We need
>more input.  As also has been noted, the caddies on the tour do not wear golf
>shoes, so I would say you are probably right in your assessment of the
>damage caused by your shoes.  I probably do more damage with spikes.

Great idea about the golf course etiquette posts.  I wish I could help
you with this, but the old thesis takes priority.  One thing I remember
is that the USGA did a study of the effect of spikeless golf shoes 
at the Industry Hill golf course in Los Angeles a few years ago.
I am pretty sure that their conclusions were that spikeless golf shoes
do much more damage than golf shoes with spikes.  I don't think they
tested tennis shoes.

I would also be interested in your opinion of the standard "waving
groups up on par 3's" part of golf etiquette.  I personally don't think
it speeds up the game any, and in some cases it can actually slow
thing down.  At one time, on the Torrey Pines golf course scorecard,
they requested that you do *not* wave groups up on par 3's.  This was
the first time I have ever read that on a card.  I asked someone who
works in the pro shop about it and he said that it was there to protect
the City of San Diego from any lawsuits if someone by the green got hit
after they waved the group on the tee up.

>
>>I think a better definition of sandbagging is someone shooting a 69,
>>claiming to be a 5.
>>
>
>It took me down to a 3 and I wasn't playing for stakes or in a tournament.
>I turn in every score I shoot, and I always shoot the best score I can.
>I apologize for the insult.  Besides, nobody would let me actually play 
>to a 5, anyhow, not for money.  I've been around here too long.

I guess if a legitimate 8 can shoot a 72, a legitimate 5 can shoot a 69.
I also apologize for calling you a sandbagger. (Geez, I haven't apologized
this much in a long time.  Maybe you can also get me to stop throwing my
clubs (just kidding .... about the club throwing)

>>
>>DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A GOLFER
>>HE OR SHE WILL NOT BEHAVE LIKE A GOLFER.  Wow!  There is a word
>>for people who judge someone just on their appearence.  It escapes
>>me right now.  
>
>Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised, but normally they do not. Sorry.
>Of course there is no guarantee that a well-dressed golfer will be any
>more than a complete asshole and a basket case to boot, but that's usually
>not the case.  Personally, I play much more with total beginners and high
>handicappers than with low handicappers.  At least 90% of my rounds
>have at least one female, usually two, in the group.  I used to play with
>my mother a dozen times for every once I played with my father, too.

Jim, you should be careful with your statements because someone might think 
that you correlate "total beginners and high handicappers" with "women".

I only thought you didn't play with beginners because you stated that
your prefered golf partner was someone who already knew all of the 
proper golf etiquette.

On the subject of women golfer, it amazes me how little respect women 
get from men on the golf course.  I once was playing with this pretty 
decent women golfer (probably a 12).  We got to a par 3 and the group
on the tee waved us up.  The three men hit first.  When the group on
the green saw that a women was going to hit next, they when right to
their balls and started to putt.  This really pissed off our women golfer.
She calmed teed up her ball and fired it into the heart of the
green.  She waited to the last second to yell fore.  Boy, did they scatter
quickly off of the green and ran to the next tee just to avoid facing her.
I also play every once in a while with a women named Christy Erb who 
played on the UCLA golf team (She finished second in the NCAA's a few year
ago and I think will turn pro next year).  She is smallish (5'4" 125 lbs),
but can hit the ball a long ways.  She also looks very young for her age.
(She also wears golf shoes, much to my chagrin).  We were paired with
there these two guys who had the PGA Tour pro look and must have thought 
they were as good as they looked.  They looked at us and thought they 
were stuck with playing with some kids.  The first drive Christy takes
a nice easy swing at it and sends it up the middle.  One of the other
guys also manages to hit in up the middle with this brutal leash of
a swing.  As we walk up the fairway there are two balls, one about 5 yards
in front the other.  The PGA look-a-like walks past the first ball, assuming 
that he of course has at least out driven little girl.  He then takes a 
look at the farther ball, realizes that it is infact Christy's ball, 
and then has to take what is the longest five yard walk back to his ball.  
It was hilarious.

>>
> [Stuff about natty wardrope deleted]
>I am considered a joke at the course (they don't
>laugh at the way I hit a golf ball, however) the way I dress.  

You sound alot like my self except for the dress shirts.  How can you
get any kind of shoulder turn without ripping out the seams undreneath
the sleeves?  Put on a tie and you might be confused with Booby Jones
or Walter Hagen.

>>
>>Maybe you have grown in the sheltered life of a country club.
>
>Never been a member of private club.  I have played on a handful of
>private courses in my life, mostly in tournaments, viz.

>>Again, if you are rich, go ahead and buy what ever you want.  I 

Again, I apologize for those cheapshots.

>Actually, I like to play with novice golfers, because I get as much out of
>teaching the game as playing it.  I also like to play for stakes,
>but that's pretty much limited to tournaments and scrambles (team
>side bets), these days.  I frequently am turned down as a fourth
>because "You're too good.  We'd just slow you down.  You'd make us nervous."
>I always feel really bad when that happens, but they never give it thought.
>I never say no to anybody, period.  And, no, I don't give advice of any
>kind unless asked, and usually even then, I wait until the round is over
>and I can go to the range or talk about it over a few beers.

Sounds like you would be a prime candidate to run a good junior 
program at your course, with etiquette and instruction seminars.  

>
>Well, Isaac, in the spirit of the season, I have tried to be very pleasant
>this time.  I hope you can forgive me for flying off the handle.  A
>man my age should know better.  Perhaps you would have more sympathy for
>my position if you knew where I'm coming from, here.  
>
>I learned at Savannah Muny during the late '50s.  Juniors were not allowed
>on the course before 3 PM unless they were with an "approved" adult
>player, i.e. somebody who was known to be player.  We were taught the
>etiquette of the game.  Those of us who caddied were allowed to play on
>Tuesday all day for free if we caddied during the previous week.  
>We learned the etiquette of golf from the caddymaster, an old black guy.
>Everyone knew the niceties of etiquette.  Golf was a civilized game, even
>among the riff-raff, like us.  That is no longer the case, hence my
>body-shirt analogy.  Most of the players at my club do not repair ball
>marks, they take practice divots out of the fairways and tees, they
>tear up the cups, they scream back and forth across the fairways, they
>seem to be unable to hit a shot without the entire foursome in attendance,
>they add their scores while standing on the green, they are INFURIATING.
>They are ignorant or indifferent, being mostly low life peasants like me,
>but the difference is that they have never played with anyone who has 
>learned golf etiquette.  They have no conception of what golf really is,
>according to the old-fashioned values that I have for how it should be
>played.  By that I do not mean technically -- I mean knowing where to
>stand, step, and when to keep still and how to keep moving.  When I
>was young, virtually everyone knew these things, but now almost no one
>does.  Golfers learn in the leagues or among themselves, and if anyone even
>suggests they might be doing something rude golfing-wise, they puff up 
>into the American Ideal that no behavior, no matter how offensive, can 
>be questioned because I'm an American with rights and golf is just a 
>stupid game anyhow, and what makes you so hoity-toity, and I ought to 
>punch you in the mouth, I can talk all the time because my name is John 
>Wayne and I like football better because it isn't loaded down with pansy 
>asses like you.  So I just keep my mouth shut on the course, even when 
>they're digging large chunks out of the green with their putters in fits 
>of rage.

Boy, I hope your course membership is the exception and not the rule.
I have obviously not been playing as long as you have, but I have not
noticed this decline in the civilized behaviour of your average golfer.
Of course, you will always come across idiots on the golf course who
really should be shot on site for their destructive behaviour.  I
learned my etiquette gradually when I played as a youngster.  Everybody
I normally play with behaves very well on the course and is very
knowledgable about the proper etiquette.  If we ever get a new person
in the group and he does sometime stupid, we tell him right there that
that kind of behaviour is unacceptable in golf.  They learn real quick.
I think alot of the problem comes from the fact that golf is a very
fast growing sport, so you end up playing with more beginners now than
you used to.  Just tell them what they should do and not do and usually
they listen.  It's great that you don't offer instructional advice on
the course.  One of the worse things is to get stuck with some loudmouth
who starts spouting off unsolicitied golf instruction theory.
Don't give up hope on what you see as the destruction of this wonderful 
game of golf.  We just need more etiquette-intelligent people like
yourself to spread the word.

>
>Am I a prude about this?  Yes, I guess I am.  I see the game
>now passed to a "fun" crowd, who do not care if they improve, who do
>not care about disturbing the other players, who feel that since they
>have payed their greens fees they have a right to stay on one hole for
>an hour if they feel like it, the rest of the people waiting behind them
>be damned.  When they finish the round, they watch the baseball or
>basketball games on TV, not the golf tournaments.  What they really
>want to do at the golf course is drink beer and ride the carts.  Golf
>is secondary, and the idiots who think decorum belongs on the golf course
>are from another time zone, and indeed,  that is true.  

I see this "fun crowd" element at the golf course as well.  But I
find them in the minority.  I do not think that they dominate the play, 
or that the game is is being taken over by these golfing morons.
I thnk that the majority of new golfers are serious about the game.
They might not have the passion that both you and I have for the game,
but I think they want to learn how to play properly, kindly, and 
courtiously.  You can never completely avoid the golfing morons, so
just deal with them as politely as you can, and move on.

>Those who take
>golf seriously are just old tightasses who can't enjoy themselves.  By not
>looking like a golfer, one makes the statement that the traditions of the
>game are no more than a pale history of lesser times, or worse, the mark
>of the imperious capitalist usurpers of the underclass.

Jim, I hope you are not serious.  You yourself have said that you 
don't look like a golfer most of the time, but I have a feeling that
you really care about the game.  You are not alone.  I know many golfers
who do not look like golfers (for various reasons from financial to they
just don't like to comform to stupid dress codes), but they respect 
the game just as much as you do.  Who would you consider has more
feelings about the traditions of the game:

(Golfer A) wears T-shirt, shorts and tennis shoes, but carries his
clubs, plays forged irons amd persimmon woods with steel shafts.

(Golfer B) wears Pringle golf sweater, Izod golf shirt, Hagger slacks, 
Footjoy golf shoes, but always takes a power cart and plays Ping Zings
and Big Bertha metal woods with graphite shafts.

There is a whole crowd of us slobs who love to play the game the way
it is suppose to play, trust me.
 
>BTW, I carry my own bag, and will continue to do so until I can't walk
>any more.  I think carts should be banned except for invalids.

Agree with 100%  Unfortunately, the golfing powers who make so much
money from power cart usage, disagree.  And guess who is going to win.
You should see the looks I get from people when I play a course 
where the cart fee is automatically added into the green fees  
(Banff Springs, Carlton Oaks), but I still end up walking.

>I think your way of thinking has won the day, at least at my course.

Jim, PLEASE do not associate the golfing morons with MY WAY.
I would help you shoot or ban all of them if it was legal.

>Golf is not very special any more.  

Jim, Golf is still very special.  Don't worry.  It will not be
taken over the golfing moron crowd.

>As has been noted on the sidebar
>of this thread, I have also overstated my case (as usual) with regard
>to who is polite and takes care of the course as a function of golf shoes.
>Let me restate it:  the most courteous, considerate players of whom I
>am aware, all wear golf shoes, but then they all have very low or 
>non-existent handicaps.  They know the game backward and forward.  Golf
>shoes have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Thank you.  Very well stated.  Although I know of many high handicap 
players who are also very courteous and considerate (didn't notice what
they had on their feet though).

>
>  ,...,.,,
> /666;    ',    jim tims
>////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
>(/@/----0-~-0
> ;'  . `` ~ \'
>  , `    ' , >
>;;|\..((   -C---->> I yield to youth, Isaac.  Golf shoes are passe.
>;;| >-  `.__),;;    I apologize to all. Sometimes at 4 AM I'm not quite sane.

Never yield to youth.  They need older guys like you to tell them how
to play the game.  Golf shoes are not passe.  They are only
passe to me.

Happy holidays,

Isaac (kim@bull.ucsd.edu)