HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:29:45 -0500
From:         sluyter@XENO.LMIG.COM
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

zahir,

The moment with your brother must have been difficult, and the
memory of it sad for you.  But how could you be anything but
"Americanized" in 6 years, at least a little.  If you are going to be
open minded and let yourself experience different culture, I think
you invite these conflicts in too.  I took a lot of philosophy in college
and went through a very troubled time.  One of my professors told
me my trouble seemed to come from trying to adopt each new idea,
or set of ideas, as it came along.  How else do we understand unless
we try to live new ideas?  What a fine thing, now, to know how
important hugging your brother really is!

Dave
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Militantly tolerant
Date: 20 Dec 1992 22:03:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.") says:

>
>->those beliefs.  "How can you be so stupid as to....." seems to be the order
>->of the day.  I had a distinct feeling that this was going to happen.:-(
>->
>->A discussion of this kind *can* work, but in here it doesn't seem to.
>->What say you and I call it a night?:-/
>
>Why here, I wonder. There have been other occasions where talk has
>turned to religion and for reasons of the dynamics of this group,
>it descends into vitriol before much of any value gets said.

>I wonder what this says about us as a, poorly defined I realize, group.
>
I think it says we don't know each other well enough for this sort of thing
to work.  I've done it face to face, with people who know each other well,
and know some of the conclusions and accusations that got thrown around
in here for the garbage they are.  One on one, it can work too, even 
electronically.  I think it may come down to a matter of trust; in small
groups of friends, you know you can say something and not get flamed for it.
In here....good luck.:-/

>Goodnight Ruth and sleep well with your wide and loving heart...

Thanks, I did.:-)  And got up and sang in the choir [or with my voice, tried
to sing, to be acccurate about it].:-)  



-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:08:03 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Interpretations of God

Douglas,

Point well taken....it does sound like religious supremacy.....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:45:42 -0200
From:         Alcino Dall Igna Junior <adij@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject:      god's academic record (fwd)

Merry Christmas for everyone!!!

Alcino Dall Igna Junior
Universidade Federal de Alagoas         alcino@ima.ufal.alan.br
Universidade Federal de Pernambuco      adij@di.ufpe.br

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 18:40:25 EDT
From: Prof Silvio Lemos Meira <srlm@asterix>
To: users@asterix
Cc: eera@urano.cnpq.br, gentil@sol.cnpq.br
Subject: god's academic record

aproveitando que esta perto do natal...!

feliz natal a todos!!!

..........................................................................

WHY GOD NEVER RECEIVED TENURE AT THE UNIVERSITY:

        1. Because He had only one major publication.
        2. And it was in Hebrew.
        3. And it had no references.
        4. And it wasn't published in a refereed journal.
        5. And some even doubt He wrote it himself.
        6. It may be true that He created the world but
        what has He published/done since ?
        7. His cooperative efforts have been quite
        limited.
        8. The scientific community has had a very
        rough time trying to repeat His results.

                        -- Alon Efrat
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:23:25 EST
From:         Gretchen Schirmer <IQZK100@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Info please...

Adam -- Welcome to the list.

Just wondering...  Does "Gonzaga" mean something in another language?

Gretchen Schirmer
IUPUI
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:30:13 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Have a wonderful holiday

Adam,

Sure, people make broad assumptions....that one celebrates Christmas or
one is heterosexual......and for some of us from other cultures, even
more....that we are a newly arrived "foreigner", that we are not aware
of American customs and need to be explained, and, in my case, the minute
they realize I am originally from India if I knew this Indian doctor of
theirs...as if Indians are some small tribe where everyone knows each other!

But....I do not take offense.  People should not be asked to do a major
investigation before wishing someone a merry Christmas or asking about
a girlfriend......

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:05:28 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Zahir:

I didn't want to comment only when I'm a bit critical...so, I thought
your email was insightful :)..

/Emmy
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:07:55 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

I think someone is stating things out of context....I said that in
MY relationships with people of different nationalities and
cultures, religion is not a barrier and does not cause problems in
interactions......

Here in America, there is constant cross cultural interaction going
on as people of different nationalities work together quite well...despite
occassional conflict where religion is often identifiedas the factor
when underlying it is poverty and economic issues....

Religion May be at the heart of most cultures but I don't believe it
is an impediment to cross cultural exchange.... I also question whether
religion really is at the heart of all cultures...

The Muslim from Malaysia gets along better with his Chinese or Indian
Malaysian (Hindu or Budhist) fellow students than he does the Muslim from
the Arab world.... Two different cultures but the same religion....

The Muslim student from Sudan gets along better with his non-muslim
friend from Nigeria than he does with the American muslim....

I can give dozens of examples of same culture different religions...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:22:16 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: before birth...

-----She/He/They Said ----

->Douglas,
->
->If you understand Ruth's seeming contradiction, please try to explain to us...
   ..
->   ..

        I don't understand the contradiction at all and have asked Ruth
        to talk to me about it.

->
->And, I am not a Chritian basher....most Christians I know do neither
->consider the rest of us doomed to "hell" nor treat us like we need
->to be "saved"..... I think you are turning over Christianity to the
->"religious right" when you imply that those Christians and others
->who disagree are "christian bashers"....
->
->zahir

        I meant no insult to anyone when noting that discussions of
        Christianity in any form tend to bring religion bashers out
        of the woodwork, ending meaningful dialog. Criticism isnot
        bashing but insulting Christians by accusing them of being
        right wing extremists is. Nowhere did I imply that to
        criticise Christianity was somehow inappropriate. I would
        expect however that criticism accept the fundamental
        sincerity of Christians beleifs, even if I do at times find
        them confusing.

        There is no need to be defensive, Zahir.


<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:27:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      before birth...

...none of us had an official outlook, mentality, or RELIGION to speak of
which we clung to inside our mother's womb before popping out into existence.
Our essential natures were sought after birth; in other words, existence
preceded essence.  It appears odd that upon birth, a child can be told
what ABSOLUTES to adopt and which to shun (very much the same way modern-day
prejudices operate).  The indoctrination of the parents, peers, community,
and school can definitely mold the world-view of the child.  To claim,
especially after recognizing that dozens of religious groups have
made, more or less, the same claims to unique legitimacy (even going
so far as to have the profound "flood scene" (check out EPIC OF GILGAMESH,
3000 BCE) that your religion is the true answer and that all others must
burn in hell, or sit on the shores of limbo, or become a lower life form
after reincarnation is absurd...

It seems clearer to me now.  Various peoples who grew up rather isolated,
didn't migrate much or run into different peoples (e.g., medieval Italy
where the Catholic church's influence was ubiquitous and life was
saturated in religious diction and undertones) tend to take-for-granted
their religious modus operandi.  Isn't it obvious that if so many different
civilizations came up with not-so-dissimilar religious views, that one
cannot be superior or more absolute than another.

RELIGIOUS ABSOLUTISM, as touted by the Religious Christian Right, is
very closely linked to nationalist socialism, bloody patriotism,
racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia and the like.

Religion, I state again, is an important, albeit socially necessary,
aspect of human existence; but, I state again, it cannot be used to
draw lines in the sand.  Celebrate

Celebrate differences yes; celebrate supremacy no.

ERACISM
Adam Karp--akarp@gonzaga.edu
From: STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA (DOUGL, APPARENTLY.)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Odd greetings
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:13:23 GMT
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Not odd but consider the implications of the greeting which is common
throughout pacific island countries:

                "Where are you going?"

Douglass
St.Christian
Anthropology
McMaster
Canada
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:19:06 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Zahir:

My only concern is making such broad generalizations is allowing one
tohave an open mind and question one's own position... I could say off
the top of my head so easily "women" or again, maybe "men" depending
how I feel , depending who I argued with that day... but do we want to
base a judgment like that on a whim or on limited experience... why not
debate our selves on our beliefs? We can't prove who is the better
gender... but we can discuss why we believe what we believe...? That I
think would be interesting... but to discuss it as if we'd come to some
conclusive end seems a bit deflating to me because there is none...

I'm just tired of hearing "Men are better" or "Women are better"... we
don't learn from these statements... the belief system underlying those
statements are what's interesting... If someoen said "Jews are better"
or "people with big ears are better" those statements wouldn't prove to
be helpful/interesting..but perhaps inflamatory in some way..if we went
deeper and said, "I think my belief stems from ...blah blah blah, that
would be enlightening and interesting...

This of coursee is my opinion... But I see no enlightening end
otherwise..

/Emmy
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Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:08:58 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      On the subjects of Americans....

Hmmm.....

this is perhaps a canadian perception, partly a product of marketting
an ideal of americanness on television...


Americans seem to present themselves, and are perceived by many, as
radical individualists, rugged and independent and self sufficient.


I say seem because I was struck by the reaction of South Florida residents
following the hurrican which devestated their communities. This may have
been a function of the way news seeks out the pathetic but what was striking
was the lack of self sufficiency and independence. Over and over again I
saw complaints from SF residents: where is fema,where is the army, where is
the national guard.


I suppose what I find striking about americans is this sense that when
something goes wrong, someone else is expected to do something about it.

This is not meant as a dig at the SF residents, whose shoddily built homes
were left as piles of rubble, but it is a paradox. Americans seem to be
very independent and capable as long as nothing goes wrong. Disasters
don't seem to bring out their independence at all, however.

I write this having lived through a five day cyclone in western samoa last
year.
What was interesting was that in WEstern Samoa, where I lived, the people
throughout the islands did not turn to the govt for help but simply started
putting their villages and their lives back together. The people in American
Samoa, on the other hand, complained vigourously that the govt was not
doing enough for them.

Not to absolve the govt from disaster response, is not waiting for
help somehow a contradiction in a society which so highly prizes
independence????

Anyone, thoughts for a Sunday. America may well be the home of the
brave and the land of the free but it also seems, in many ways, to
be the kingdom of the helpless......

Ouchhh......

Now my american freinds is gonna beat my ears and eyes....


Dougl,           *
The           .
Southern       *   *
Cross            *

AKA

  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
  <->                        <->
  <-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
  <-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
  <-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
  <-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
  <->                        <->
  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 10:45:02 -0700
From:         Zhao Yong <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sad news

I'm fairly new on XCULT-L, but I've already felt the extended firendship
and understanding among us. I'm sorry I missed Patrcik's wonderful
postings and want to express my "wubi de aishi (Chinese literal
transation: unparalleled sad feeling)".

Zhao Yong
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:10:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Challenge

I'm not too sure if my first message (posted a day ago) was actually recognized.
Therefore, I wish to reintroduce myself to the x-cult community.
As a new subscriber, I am very interested in challenging others and myself by
being confronted consistently, in a positive atmosphere, with concerns and
insights regarding racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia, and AIDS prejudice
I am very involved in the Human Unification Board (HuB) at my college, Gonzaga
University (impregnated in the mecca of absolute nondiversity <Spokane, WA
94% white, last time I checked>).
Is anyone out there from the Inland Northwest, aka the "Great White Bastion"?
The skinhead troupes and wonderful political candidates like Bo Gritz have made
not only Northern Idaho (with the Weaver escapade) but Washington and Oregon
known for (rumor has it) intolerance; I must say it isn't true (shhh...)

What d'ya all think about Measure 9's near success or Colorado's passing law?
Has the Religious Right befallen a fundamental crisis?
Is the GOP hopelessly tainted by Rebellious Reactionaries?
And is the Democratic party really full of it [i.e., the rhetoric regarding
human rights for all: in my view, the animal skin may be firmer-fitting and
a tad bit hairier, but the essential natures are both the same]?

These questions and more mysteries...
Send me mail (Get to know me!) --- akarp@gonzaga.edu
PS-may I say that I am moved by the authentic compassion expressed by members
of this discussion group and the obvious impression of those members whose
words (good name) clearly immortalize.lized themselfes
ERACISM
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:57:44 EST
From:         Solomon Yusim <Solomon.Yusim@LAMBADA.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject:      On passing of Patrick

It was so very sad to hear that Patrick had died.  Even though most of us who
were active on XCULT-L 2-3 years ago, haven't been active lately, I still
feel a great deal of closeness and friendship with them, of whom Patrick,
certainly, was one.  It is like losing a member of the family, and I'll
miss him.

SY
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:24:45 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: God
              a

Zahir says that "religion is really not as much
a factor as a lot of other more cultural issues..."
Religion is at the heart of most cultures.  Other
cultural issues are controlled by one's religion.
Even if that person is an agnostic... 8-)
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:30:58 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: God
              a

Zahir writes

I don't understand the sensitivity to a nice statement wishing a happy
season..... In any case, I believe there is only one GOD who is addressed
by different names.....


This is exactly what I object to; the notion that there is one God who
goes bey different rules and different names.  Why would God tell the
Muslims one thing, the Jews another and the Christians another?  I should
think that such a god should work at better organization.

I assume that you are not a Jew or a Christain or a Muslim.  The three
Bibles for each of these groups claim that their god is the only god.

But let me get back to my point.  Is cross cultural communication only
possible when there is some kind of unifying religion.  My religion
appears to be quite different from yours, Zahir.  We must recognize those
differences and then we can better communicate.  We must not destroy the
differences.  The dustruction of the differences results in a religion
only possible in the far east; that is, the notion that every religion is
right and by implication that god is a fool.

Furthermore, if you believe your religion is right, you should feel free
to convince me of that fact.  True religion is based on facts not on
emotion.
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 10:16:01 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...

Adam,

You criticize people who misinterpret the Bible and then criticize people
who are absolutists.  Read the Bible and then decide if God is excusive.
Read the Koran and then decide if God is exclusive.  Read the Talmud and
then decide if God is exclusive.

I am not asking you to think about some adherents of these religions or
about a multi cultural view of the world, but WHAT DO THESE BOOKS SAY.

If a person is an adherent of a religion, I would hope that s/he would
follow the book of that religion.


Garry
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:50:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: before birth...

Ruth:

You lacerate my argument with claims that I am referring to all conservative
Christians when I attack the Religious right.  Perhaps I can clarify
exactly which group of Christians I mean.

Specifically: The Oregon Citizens' Alliance and familiar Christian subversive
movements by similar Council or Alliance titles and Pat Robertson's Christian
Coalition.  These groups are, I state vociferously, full of hate and
intolerance.  If you are not so closed-minded and short-sighted as such
organizations, then it is clear that your are not CONSERVATIVE in the
self-title you bestow; rather, you are a far cry from the REACTIONARY
rhetoric of the Religious Right; perhaps you're a moderate conservative.

I think it's impossible for you to discredit my comments and the rest of
the liberal left.  I speak facts.  Please don't depreciate the discussion
by piddling in ignorant counterattacks; prove to me otherwise, please...

ERACISM
Adam Karp
Gonzaga University
akarp@gonzaga.edu
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Militantly tolerant
Date: 20 Dec 1992 07:11:39 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.") says:

>Like all discussions of religion, this one is going nowhere because
>there seems a fundamental inability to understand that genuine
>philosophical interest is not an insult to faith.
>
But yet, insults have been flying.  Some have, admittedly, been from
my terminal.  A lot of them have been directed against persons, for holding
those beliefs.  "How can you be so stupid as to....." seems to be the order
of the day.  I had a distinct feeling that this was going to happen.:-(

A discussion of this kind *can* work, but in here it doesn't seem to. 
What say you and I call it a night?:-/  

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does