HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wikla@cs.Helsinki.FI (Arto Wikla)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.early
Subject: Re: in praise of Monteverdi (was Re: in praise of Harnoncourt
Date: 23 Dec 1992 10:45:35 +0200
Organization: University of Helsinki, Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.helsinki.fi

The ending duetto of 'Incoronazione di Poppea' is really good stuff,
as usually all Monteverdi when performed well. Anyhow, I cannot
resist commenting one thing: The liner notes of some of the 
recordings mention (sorry I don't remember which one) that just that 
duetto 'Pur ti miro' IS NOT by Monteverdi, but that he has borrowed 
it from somebody else, perhaps from Benedetto Ferrari. 
Especially I like his nickname: Benedetto Ferrari 'della tiorba'.
(My eagerness for mentioning Ferrari is explained by the fact that
I also play theorbo :-)
Ferrari has lots of fine music. The Italian faximile-publisher
S.P.E.S has published one large collection.
By the way: In the days of Monteverdi it sometimes was an honour 
to borrow one's piece, not a violation of copyright.

Arto Wikla, Helsinki, Finland
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: The BEST finale!
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:34:18 GMT

Beethoven's 5th Symphony!

....and Ariadne auf Naxos.


Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: indira+@cs.cmu.edu (Indira Subramanian)
Subject: Re: SURVEY: FAVORITE PIANO CONCERTO
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engg., Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:31:43 GMT


In article <1992Dec21.011843.3283@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
>
>I must admit I'm starting to enjoy these "Greatest All-Time" and "Favorite" 
>threads, so I'm starting another one.  :-)   The question is, What is your
>favorite piano concerto?
>
>And a very important sub-question: What's your favorite *Beethoven* piano 
>concerto?

This should make a great thread for discussion. I have already seen the
responses so far and they are quite interesting. 

I have some suggestions to make this thread more informative:

(1) Please mention all the piano concertos that you have listened to
    before listing your favorites.

    If you say LVB's emperor concerto is your favorite that's fine.
    But if it's the only concerto you have listened to on someone else's
    recommendation, you are not really contributing to the survey.

(2) It would be great if you say whether you are a musician or
    someone knowledgeable in classical music or just a listener
    (like myself).

(3) If you are a musician, in particular a pianist, could you tell us
    why you favor certain pieces over others.

I have (and listened to):

(1) Beethoven     #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (all are great, but 2 is last)
(2) Brahms        #1, #2 (both great)
(3) Mozart        #6, #7, #9, #10, #13, #14, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #23, 
                  #24, #26  (9 and 18 thru 26 are great; 18 is beautiful)
(4) Tchaikovsky   #1 (great)
(5) Schumann      op. 54 (great)
(6) Grieg         #1 (great)
(7) MacDowell     #2 (beautiful)
(8) Rachmaninov   #1, #3 (haven't quite acquired a taste for them yet)
(9) Bartok        #2 (yet to acquire a taste for Bartok)
(10)Liszt         #1, #2 (not particularly)

I have been listening to western classical music (as opposed to Asian-Indian
classical music) only in the last 3 to 4 years off and on... 

Indira (indira@cs.cmu.edu)
Electrical & Computer Engg., 
Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
===============================

ps. this is my first post to this news group...
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Strong)
Subject: Re: Pachelbel, Beethoven, and Mel Gibson
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:18:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.201315.8970@tc.fluke.COM> strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Strong) writes:
}In article <18DEC199217244331@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
}}In article <105123@bu.edu>, spacefox@acs.bu.edu (Godfrey Degamo) writes...
}}>What's the best music to romance a woman at the piano?
}}
}}
}}Debussy's "Clair de Lune". Then, when she says "That was 
}}wonderful," you can reply "But you didn't even swoon!"
}
}Another one that goes over quite well is Poulenc's Melancholie.  Start
}with the Poulenc, and then hit her with Clair de Lune.  

And then--a little 4-hand music.  Teach her to play chopsticks.  It'll
keep both of her hands busy--but only one of yours!  

-- 

Norm Strong  (strong@tc.fluke.com)
2528 31st S.   Seattle WA 98144   USA
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: male alti, counter-tenors, castrati, and so on
Date: 27 Dec 1992 01:33:22 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <2B39E6C2.912@news.service.uci.edu> 
jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:
> In article <1hbsk5INNdb4@mizar.usc.edu>
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >Neither.  They sounded like boy sopranos, but the voices were
> >powered by adult lungs. [ ... ]
>
> I suspect some castratos also sounded like boy altos.

Oh yes, I was imprecise there.  Castrati had various ranges,
corresponding roughly to the vocal types among female singers
today.  The most famous castrato of all time, Farinelli, was
an alto.

> For instance, I recall in Handel's Flavio, he composed parts for 
> a male soprano and male alto (both castratos), and a countertenor,
> among other male and female vocalists.

Which should go far to disabuse people of the notion that
castratos and countertenors are interchangeable.

> A question I would have is that it seems fairly common
> for the roles kings and emperors and such to have been set
> for castrato soprano.  Is there a known reason for this?

Perhaps because the soprano castrati possessed heroically
ringing voices?  A brighter, more trumpet-like sound?

Arne
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: graziano@ravel.udel.edu (Lisa Marie Graziano)
Subject: Bruckner: second try to post
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 16:35:49 GMT



I am unfamiliar with Bruckners music but wouldn't mind learning something
about him.  But it seems reading the postings is a waste of time.  People
confuse "I don't personally enjoy his music"  with  "His music is
worthless and anyone who likes it is a bozo."  Those who like him are
fairly informative.  Those who don't seem incapable of giving intelligent
information...  ie, "He Sucks"- now what the hell is that supposed to tell
me?? That you don't like him??  I couldn't care less.  

Try giving specifics; HOW is his musically technically/musically at fault.
Thanks.
Lisa
From: tegammk@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Kazmierczak)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Shostakovich symphony recommendations
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:04:21 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Dec19.202445.18333@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank) writes:
>
>	I'm just beginning to explore Shostakovich's symphonic output.
>	1.  What are the "best" recordings of his 11th and 13th?
>	2.  Which other of his symphonies would be most worth exploring
>(as a possible guideline, I like the 7th much more than the 6th and 9th)?

 The Leopold Stokowski CD is difficult to find, as has been previously mentioned
, but is my favorite. I am not too familiar with the 13th to recommend one.

If you like the 7th, then you probably would like the 5th and 10th. The 10th I
would recommend an older Karajan/Berlin Phil. on DGG. However, IMHO, the ult-
imate performance is Svetlanov/USSR on LP on Melodiya. I have seen an awful
lot of these mid 1960-70 recordings showing up on an USSR CD label, Melodiya.
When this recording comes out, I will get it. Already out is the same cond/orch
for the 7th symphony.

Another good performance of the 5th is the Atlanta SO/Levi.

A Bernard Haitink/London Phil. fan would like my choice of them for the 8th
and 2/3/Age of Gold.


-- 
Mike Kazmierczak
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!tegammk
Internet: tegammk@prism.gatech.edu
From: bwalsh@math.rutgers.edu (Bertram Walsh)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The BEST finale!
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:53:02 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>I guess you haven't read the article posted here which talks about
>one performer getting PHYSICALLY ILL after playing some of Bruckners
>junk !!!              ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

Let me briefly recap that post and its successors (not verbatim
transcript, and with apologies to anyone whom I misquote).  The
original post referred to something indefinably evil about Bruckner's
music, and either that post or an immediate successor to a performer's
remark about becoming physically ill after playing it.  A specific
source for this remark could not be found, but there were some plau-
sible explanations put forth for it.  The most plausible one in my
judgment was that the performer was a brass player, and that the piece
may have been the 5th.  The stress that Bruckner symphonies put on
brass players is notorious, and orchestras that can afford to do so
will double many of the brass parts in the 5th.  Professional perfor-
mers on the net could give informed details about various ways that
orchestras try to handle the physical exhaustion of performing Bruck-
ner, Mahler, the Nielsen 4th or 5th -- any of these guys who just keep
the wind players going full blast for long periods of time.  But there
are physiological things to blame for the physical illness that come
'way ahead of musical criticism viscerally expressed.

>Even his contempories and the critics of his day hated his music.
>Whenever his music was criti[c]ized, he changed it !!!  That's why
>there are numerous 'originals' to many of his works. (The 'Bruckner
>problem' !!!!! )

Anybody who's interested can read in a large number of standard places
all about the Wagnerite-v.-Brahmsian nonsense and the difficulties
Bruckner had getting his work performed.  Bruckner's personality may
have made him excessively malleable about making changes for the sake
of getting performance, but the post quoted above engages in wilful
and simplistic misrepresentation of historical fact.

Look, I don't find it interesting to hear Mahler, exceptions being the
songs and the 4th symphony.  I can give reasons, but I have to con-
sider this as a failing in my own musical sensibility, not as some-
thing that's deficient in Mahler.  Could the Bruckner-bashers please
just consider the possibility that their attitude also exhibits some
kind of failure of perception, turn down the flame-throwers, and help
to conserve bandwidth?

Bertram Walsh                   | "A Walzer von Strauss is ma
Dep't of Mathematics            |  liaba wia a Symphonie von
Rutgers University              |  Brahms."
New Brunswick NJ 08903-2101 USA |              -- A. Bruckner
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Bruckner
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:54:11 GMT

In article <BzzuHt.Kpp.1@cs.cmu.edu> hsmoliar+@cs.cmu.edu (Harold Smoliar) writes:
>In article <27DEC199217335014@deimos.caltech.edu> inr@deimos.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
>> Add one more positive vote for Bruckner - not that he's the sort
>>of composer I'd listen to every day. You have to be in the right
>>mood to appreciate the gradual (so,metimes ponderous) development.
>
>And add one more negative.  This is the only composer that I have ever come
>seriously close to falling asleep onstage during a performance.


The string quintet, perhaps?  

 
>
>Harold Smoliar
>English horn, Pittsburgh Symphony
>Piano, Symphony Jazz Quartet
>hsmoliar@db1.speech.cs.cmu.edu
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Choir of Boys and Youths
Date: 28 Dec 92 05:53:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga
To: nadegda@mplik.e-burg.su

Would someone kindly send me a copy of the original article
from <nadegda@mplik.e-burg.su> with the following ID:
<AB1WnEhm9B@mplik.e-burg.su>

I responded to the posting by e-mail, but barely in time
as immediately after I finished the letter and sent it
on its way, I tried to save the article itself and -- lo
and behold -- the news software here decided it was the
appropriate time to be tidy and did a clean-up, wiping
out that article and about six I hadn't read yet.  (It
informed me of this with the line "It's useless to save
a null article."  followed by a smiley, of course.)
It's the article about the Choir of Boys and Youths
from somewhere in Russia.  Thanks to anyone who will send it;
replications, in this case, are not an annoyance.  Thanks
in advance.

--Mark

Mark Gresham
dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu
=====
From: hakari@lars.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (The Conformist Contrabass Clarinetist)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: A Couple O' Questions
Keywords: bass clarinet, King's Singers
Date: 22 Dec 92 02:12:28 GMT
Organization: ContraManiacs Anonymous



	1)  Does anyone know where I could get already published pieces
	    for bass clarinet ensembles, from 3-5 basses, with Bb contrabass
	    optional?

	2)  How about solo or with-piano pieces for bass clarinet?  I don't
	    know what's out there that's any good, and my school music
	    libe doesn't have much.  

	3)  Any good sources for info on and recordings of the King's 
	    Singers?  My voice teacher (Tony Holt) sang with them, 
	    and I want to accumulate recordings from that time.  I 
	    already have and *LOVE* Watching the White Wheat...listened 
	    to the whole tape at least 40 times since I got it Friday 
	    afternoon!  BTW, KS music is great for painting to...


Thanks for help...
--ContraManiac
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^finger me, you'll see why 8-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Andrea Hakari			Real people play clarinet...
St. Olaf College			Real clarinets play bass...
Northfield, MN  55057				Real basses play CONTRA!!!!

  Enraged Outcasts 92-93   Yeah, 4 Eb's and a C...whaddya gonna do about it?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beginning a classical collection
Date: 29 Dec 1992 19:35:59 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <MARCA.92Dec29035642@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu>  
marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen) writes:
> In article <BzzAMr.AKD@nic.umass.edu> yang@titan.ucc.umass.edu  
(HUAYONG YANG) writes:
> 
>    >4) Should one look for particular condutors/orchestras  
performing that
>    >piece?  This really complicates CD selection!
> 
>    Yes. Karajan and Bernstein are top choices.
> 
> Suggestions from another ignoramus: rather than Karajan, there are
> quite a few non-Nazi conductors of greater interest.  E.g., off the
> top of my head, Giulini, Dutoit, Jarvi, Harnoncourt (esp for
> Beethoven), Tennstedt, Chailly, Abbado; younger conductors, Rattle  
and
> Andrew Litton; and in authentic instrument land, Norrington,  
Pinnock,
> Gardiner.
> 

What does Karajan's personality (or whether he was a Nazi) have
to do with ability as a conductor?  Whatever he was like as
a person, he was a superb conductor in some areas.  The problem
with the recommendation is not that it recommends Karajan, but
that it does so without any caveats. The caveats: Karajan is
very good for most Romantic composers. His Beethoven is overall
very, very good (far better than newer conductors like
Norrington).  However, his Mozart is somehow flat, as is his
Stravinsky.

For Mozart, off the top of my head, I'd recommend George
Szell, Karl Boehm, and Neville Marriner.  But not Karajan.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: The First Art (New Radio Series)
Date: 2 Jan 93 02:43:18 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Systems Co., Atlanta GA

The following is excerpted from _The Voice of Chorus
America_ (Vol. 16, No. 2, Winter1993):

THE FIRST ART -- Choral Excellence in America

  "The First Art," Chorus America's new, weekly radio series,
making its debut in January 1993, represents the single most
significant and far-reaching effort thus far conceived in our
National Choral Music Awareness Program.  Distributed via
satellite throughout the country to participating public radio
stations, "The First Art" will utilize the highest quality
examples of the choral art our member ensembles have to offer and
carry this choral excellence to thousands of listeners who would
not otherwise have the opportunity to enjoy and appreciate what we
are accomplishing in our own communities.  [...]
  In most of your cities, there is a public radiop station with
the capability of receiving "The First Art" on their satellite
dish.  The programs will come to these stations without cost or
obligation.  [...]
  We urge you to approach your classic music station either in
person or by letter and ask the program director if he or she is
aware of the coming new series, _The First Art_.  [...]
  All 350 or more public radio stations will soon be receiving
special mailings and teletype communications through the DACS
system advising them of program listings as well as satellite feed
dates and times.
  Please do all you can to convince your local station to take
advantage of this historic opportunity -- the first national radio
series to focus exclusively on choral music!

*****

[_The Voice of Chorus America_ is the periodical publication for
members of _Chorus America_ (The Association of Professional Vocal
Ensembles) and also incorporates the publications of the American
Choral Foundation.  For more information about Chorus America,
write to them at 2111 Sansom St., Philadelphia, PA 19103 or
telephone 215-563-2430]

*****

This posting has been made as a public informational service to
readers of 'rec.music.classical'.

Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

=====

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Jenufa at the Met
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:32:19 EST

There has been some talk here recently about ovations, and the ovation for
last Saturday evening's season premiere performance of Jenufa at the Met
was one of the most extraordinary I have ever witnessed.

James Conlon led a cast that included Gabriela Benackova as Jenufa, Ben
Heppner as Laca, and Leonie Rysanek as the Kostelnicka.  Benackova sang
beautifully; her acting is simple and plain, saved from dullness by its
expressive and personal quality.  Heppner's Laca was extremely good, though
his realization of the character didn't always match my own ideas.  The
other major role of Steva was not well served.  There were a few minor
flaws here and there, but in general most of the smaller roles were
beautifully done.  The staging was terrific.

But Rysanek was another matter.  Another universe.  I have never in my life
witnessed such a performance.  Her first act aria was cut (not unusual) and
I thought I might not get enough of her.  But Act II contains her most
compelling music, and she simply rose above the whole business of singing,
technique, acting and showmanship to a level of transcendent beauty and
power that my words can barely suggest.  It was as if she was using
Janacek's music, the stage and its props and costumes, as the raw materials
to create a masterpiece of her own.  I don't mean to say she did any
disservice to the work or her colleagues; she just transported the audience
into a realm that I can't recall ever reaching in an operatic setting, and
but few other times in my life.

At the end of the second act the entire audience rose to its feet in
unison.  The appreciation for Heppner and Benackova was great, but that for
Rysanek many times greater.  After the last act, the applause went on for
26 minutes, continuing even after the safety curtain was all the way down.
The ushers were yelling to get people to leave, and those few hundred who
remained just couldn't go.

If you are within striking distance of Lincoln Center and can still get a
ticket for Jenufa, I promise you an evening you won't forget.

Chris Ischay
chrisi@camex.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gustavo@dent.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana)
Subject: Re: CD prices
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, U. of Chicago
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:31:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.080720.20221@midway.uchicago.edu> pkbockus@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Keith Bockus) writes:
>
>
>I just want to comment on Francois Velde's comments about Chris 
>Brewster's (or Dave Lampson's?) comments on R. Goiffon comments 
>about the price of CDs...
(stuff deleted)
>>Otherwise, I agree with most of what Chris Brewster wrote, and I certainly
>>find Goiffon's plea clumsy and unconvincing, to say the least.
>
>On this, we agree wholeheartedly :-)
>
>Keith Bockus


   I wonder if Francois and Keith are going to follow Chriss' lead and
forward their thoughts to Goiffon. It would be interesting to include
some information on the volume of readership of this newsgroup, for
Goiffon's benefit. If classical buyers represent a 5% slice of the
market, that means that there aren't too many of us out there; my
guess is that the readership of rec.music.classical accounts for a
significant portion of it, or at least that the opinions expressed in
our newsgroup are statistically representative. 

   Personally, I think Goiffon is completely out of touch with the
consumer side of the discussion, and lending a sympathetic ear to the
well reasoned arguments of our music-loving economists could even do
his business some good, while ignoring them will almost certainly do
much to hurt it. 

   As far as I am concerned, the idea of shelling out $21 would not
even cross my mind when competitors are offering a comparable product
for about $15. As I don't think I'm unique in this respect, should
Goiffon pursue his pricing strategy, the unfortunate result will
problably be that HM will find itself in serious danger of going out
of business, which would be a loss not only for the company's owner,
but for the musical world in general.

                                          G.

P.S.: It may be argued that if I think that the survival of HM is a
worthy cause, I should be ready to shoulder my part of the financial
burden and shell out my $21 without further ado, but here we are
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:19494 rec.music.misc:29842