From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative,rec.music.industrial
Subject: Re: Nine Inch Nails : - Does anyone care.?
Keywords: NIN
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:16:44 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Apr17.032618.24916@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> earle@poseur.JPL.NASA.GOV (Greg Earle - Sun JPL on-site Software Support) writes:
> In article <1992Apr16.004233.27345@bradley.bradley.edu> dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
> >mcdonghj@unix2.tcd.ie (Nascent Virion.....) writes:
> >
> >>Talking Nitty Gritty. NIN=INXS... Get real. Where have you been.
> >>If NIN aren't industrial who is. Skinny Puppy... Sorry I forgot :-)
> >
> >As an experiment, try tracking down some of the bands that folks like Greg
> >mention around here, like Throbbing Gristle, Einstuerzende Neubaten,
> >Negativland, and early Controlled Bleeding, and I think you'll see why NIN
> >gets compared to INXS and Depeche Mode so often.  I'm not definitively
> >saying that NIN isn't industrial, but if you take the time to listen to the
> >bands that pioneered industrial music, you'll see why some folks get worked
> >up into such a lather.
> 
> While I agree with David's assessment, my comment wasn't based on that.
> 
> Some people seem to think that postings such as my original one are based on
> some sort of holier-than-thou mentality, and they get their backs up and trot
> out the flamage.
> 
> Look, in a week I'll be closer to 34 than to 33.  I'm a little too old for the
> holier-than-thou trip.  I can be an opinionated bastard when necessary, but
> one of the wonders of being thirtysomething is that one realizes that opinions
> REALLY ARE "just like assholes", I'm sure you all know that koan by now.
> Untimately, you become more tolerant of other's taste when you know that said
> taste is well-informed, even if it happens not to be isomorphic to your own.

I think you've said it pretty well, but I'd also be aware of the private garden
syndrome.  By virture of experience and interest, you've got the whole terrain
pretty well mapped out, but most newcommers are going to come in from some
random edge or corner - no surprise that their initial observations or
generalizations are in conflict with your mapping.

To pick a lousey example (i.e. myself) my first exposure to anything industrial
was when I asked someone a few offices over "what's that wierd shit that your
playing so loud that it I can hear it from out here".  Turned out that that was
Front 242 (I-dance) and among the other discs present were NIN (I?-rock-fusion), 
Depeche Mode, not to mention some ambient and a bunch of (yeech) metal.

Is it any surprise that I would associate NIN more closely with Industrial than
anything else?  Since then I've bought a few samplers and tried other folks
discs and now have a clue as to where Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and
Neubauten fit into the scheme of things.

In light of this, I can see that NIN/Trent owes a lot more to Black Sabbath
(shoot me) than anything industrial and that the "noise" in his stuff is
more funky/evil synth work than the composed noise of the "industrial" groups.

On the other hand, this new understanding doesn't particularly affect my
interest in NIN, though I'll admit that having heard it and nothing new for
n-years or it being on heavy rotation on somthing I usually listen to might.

The reason that NIN, F242 or (name some) may turn out to be disgustinly
"popular" has less to do with they're being "good" "industrial" groups,
than that their work has enough cross-over (sellout?) potential to reach
out of the alternative category.  Whether the alternative category/fans
have to disown something because it turns out to be popular seems to be
a separate long-running war in alt.music.alternative.

> I've seen NIN 3 times now.  I saw them in Pittsburgh in November 1988, when
> they opened for Skinny Puppy.  I saw them in San Francisco at the I-Beam, and
> I saw them at Helter Skelter here in Hollywood the last go-round.  If I didn't
> find some sort of worth, I wouldn't bother.  But after seeing them live 3
> times, if I sense a pattern...
...> 
> Thus the comparison.  No hidden agendas, no slams intended, no nothing.  Just
> a simple me-as-logic-based-lifeform observation.  Additional data points
> needed before inferring truth due to mathematical induction.  That kinda
> thang.  Take it for what it's worth.

If only most of the postings (not pointing at you) conveyed some positive
information, live would be great.  Too many "NIN sucks", "Trent is a poseur"
messages which merely attack, and do nothing to inform.

> Just remember one thing.  For some of us, we populate a zone filled with
> people like Morthund.  Phallus Dei.  Asmus Teichens.  In Slaughter Natives.
> Dissecting Table.  Hanatarash.  Godflesh.  A few zillion others.  The notion
> that Nine Inch Nails is somehow "Industrial" is a bit alien in this kind of
> landscape.  You can think whatever you like, and if not living in a
> megalopolis with access to music like this (without considerable difficulty,
> like having to brave the dreaded mail-order route) makes it such that NIN seem
> to be inhabiting a remote corner of your musical landscape, so be it.  But
> music exists on an *absolute* scale - and if "Industrial" parameterizes a
                     ^^^^^^^^^^
> certain subset of that scale/landscape, I have every right to consider NIN to
> be outside of that landscape, considering as how I have a bit better view of
> the borders of said landscape than some others.

One absolute scale huh?  Everybody agrees on one definition of "industrial",
right?  This is something I've seen little evidence of - If you want to say
a few absolute scales and many subjective ones I might buy it...

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing:   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Commodore, Engineering Department     phone:  215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
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