From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Peter Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:25:56 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth

Eric Ewanco wrote:
> So you have this minister who brings many people to God and gives
> awesome teachings and you learn to trust in him and he's a wonderful
> help for your faith.  All of a sudden, ten years down the line, he
> commits adultery.  Oops, gee, guess he was never regenerated, never a
> Christian in the first place, right?  But _you_ thought he was
> regenerated, _he_ probably thought he was regenerated -- he even ACTED
> like he was regenerated (is that possible? I thought the unregenerate
> could do no good?).  So you can't really know if someone is saved,
> because you never know if in the future they may sin and thus prove they
> were never regenerated in the first place?

I have been in just such a situation as you describe above. The actual course 
of events that took place are still somewhat painful to recall, and I shall 
not waste time on those details.

This man is now totally backslidden. He appears to have no interest in God,
and his life does anything but glorify God.

As I understand it, you say this man was saved but has now thrown away his
salvation by an act of choice. However, to my knowledge he has never 
consciously chosen to become unsaved. He has chosen to sin persistantly, 
so much so that he is now completely out of touch with those choices and 
sins habitually.

You suggest that Tom Brewer would claim this man was never saved in the
first place. I am not certain that is what Tom is saying, but suffice it to say
that some people would argue in this vein.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that this man had a real faith in Christ.
He was saved as surely as I am.

I reject an argument that says this man was never saved, and I reject an 
argument that he has given up his salvation. I also reject any argument that
he has been rejected by God in any way. 

In short, I have to say that this man will be with me in heaven.

Now that is scandalous you might say. You might argue that it is a nonsense
to argue that a man who is so full of sin, and so un-sanctified now, will still 
be saved on the last day, regardless of whether or not he turns back to Christ.

But the gospel is indeed a scandal (look at the greek word for foolishness). 
This is the scandal of the gospel - even though this man has shipwrecked his 
faith, Christ has still paid the penalty of his sin. He was saved, and remains 
saved, although his work is very much consumed by fire.

Look at that passage in 1 Corinthians 3. If a man builds on perishable things -
his ego, his desire, his self-agrendizement, then that which he builds will be 
consumed. Again, I have seen this happen.

This man had a growing church and two other buildings devoted to ministry 
within our town. God has taken all this from him and humbled him. This in
itself redounds to the glory of the Holy God.

So, Eric, despite the fact that I have personal and painful experience of just
such a case of backsliding, I retain my belief that once we are saved we 
remain saved. God may chastise us, and we may continue to sin, but our 
salvation remains secure.

> Eric

Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston