From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:47:42 GMT

From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
> lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
..
> >   Jesus Christ: According to Mormonism Jesus Christ was one of the spirit so
> >   of the God Elohim. Jesus was was Jehovah, the God of the old testament. Go
> >   the Father visited Mary and had marital relations with her so that Jesus
> >   could be born with a human body.
>
> No, there is no explicit Mormon teaching that teaches this.
> The only thing that Mormons teach is that God, the Father is the
> father of Jesus Chirst, not the Holy Ghost.
>
> There is no LDS doctrine that explains in unambiguous terms what
> the *method* of conception was.

        No... but 'widely held official speculation.' The father of
the Mormon Jesus is an exalted being of flesh and bones who begat
Jesus' physical body in the same physical way our fathers begat ours.
The Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated:

  "Some words scarcely need definition. They are on every tongue and are
  spoken by every voice.... Two such words are father and son. Their
  meaning is known to all, and to define them is but to repeat them....

  ...Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah [Jesus is
  "Jehovah" while god the father is "Elohim"] came forth, tabernacled in
  clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births
  were brought to pass in like manner.

  There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the
  scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond
  comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of
  God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers.
  It is just that simple. (Promised Messiah, p. 468)

  The Father had a Son, a natural Son, his own literal Seed, the
  Offspring of his body. (Promissed Messiah, p. 355)

  "...the faithful saints...testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son;
  that _he was conceived and begotten in the normal way_... (Promissed
  Messiah, p. 473)

  "Christ was _begotten_ by an Immortal Father _in the same way_ that
  mortal men are _begotten_ by mortal fathers.  (Mormon Doctrine, P.547)
  (emphasis added)

        Apostle and General Authority Heber C. Kimball claims that
that the conception of the LDS Jesus was accomplished 'naturally':

  "In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his
  creatures, I will say I was _naturally begotten_; so was my father,
  and _also my Saviour Jesus Christ_.  According to the Scriptures, he
  is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was
  _nothing unnatural about it_.  (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p.211)
  (emphasis added)

        The First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles stated the
following in "A Doctrinal Exposition": "Jesus Christ is the Son of
Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is
literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body
in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh..." (Ariticles
of Faith, pp. 466-467) The Prophet Brigham Young stated the following:

  "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our
  children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and
  blood -- was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.
  (Journal of Discourses, 8:115)

  "...all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that
  ever lived on the earth...is simply this...
  When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into
  the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured
  that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do
  it....and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and
  you and me. (Journal of Discourses, 4:217-218)

  "...the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and
  begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the
  Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in
  person. (Journal of Discourses, 1:238)

        The Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (tenth prophet) stated that
"Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and
that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18)

        The Mormon book _Gospel Principles_ states that "God the Father
became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal
mother and an immortal father. He is the only one to be born in this way
on the earth. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son." (P. 57)

        The Mormon Jesus was not begotten of the Holy Spirit. The
Apostle Orson Pratt related the following:

  "...some have supposed that the body of Jesus was begotten of the Holy
  Ghost without the instrumentality of the immediate presence of the
  Father....the Holy Ghost gave her strength to abide the presence of
  the Father without being consumed; but it was the personage of the
  Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is
  called "the Only Begotten of the Father;" that is, the only one in
  this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father....

  ...the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife
  of God the Father... He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin
  Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was
  espoused to another... (The Seer, p. 158)

        The Bible reveals the following regarding a virgin who is
betrothed or espoused to another:

  "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man
  find her in the city, and lie with her;
  Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye
  shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she
  cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his
  neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
  But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force
  her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
  But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no
  sin worthy of death:...
  For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and
  there was none to save her. (Deut. 22:23-27)

        The Mormon god should have been stoned to death because Mary was
betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 1:18-19,24; Luke 1:27) when he impregnated
her. If he impregnated her in a city and she did not cry for help, she
also should have been stoned.

        Regarding the father of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Joseph
Fielding Smith stated that "the Holy Ghost is the messenger of the
Father and the Son. Mortal beings could not endure the presence of the
Father without the Spirit overshadowing them, and that was the mission
of the Holy Ghost, but not to beget the Son of God, that was the
business of the Father." (Answers to Gospel Questions, 5:128) Smith
stated emphatically that "the Holy Ghost is not the Father of Jesus
Christ." (Answers to Gospel Queations, 5:126) The Prophet Brigham Young
stated the following regarding this matter:

  "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had
  begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy
  Ghost....
  ...Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ
  was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little
  anecdote.... "if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be
  very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost
  to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders
  by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties." (Journal
  of Discourses, 1:50-51)

        In order to determine just who the Father of Jesus is, we must
first determine what a father is. To do this, we shall consider the
definition given by the Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith. He said a father
is "one who begets or gives life." (Answers to Gospel Queations, 4:177)
Is there only one way to give life as Brigham Young claimed in the
following statements?

  "He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other
  process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under
  the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever
  will be. (Journal of Discourses, 11:122)

  "Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of
  this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever
  made upon any other principle. (Journal of Discourses, 3:319)

        According to Young, when God created man and angels, he created
them through sexual relations. He said there is no other way to create.
This statement by Young contradicts the BoM which says: "For behold, by
the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth... God being
able to speak...and man was created..." (Jac. 4:9; Mor. 9:17)
"...he knows all the thoughts and intents of the heart; for by his hand
were they all created from the beginning." (Alma 18:32) The BoM
definitely says there is a way to create other than sexual relations.

        What does the Bible say about the creation of man and the host
of heaven? It states: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the
ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living soul." (Gen. 2:7) "By the word of the LORD were the
heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." (Ps.
33:6) "Thy hands have made me and fashioned me..." (Ps. 119:73. See also
138:8)

        These verses reveal that man and Angels were created by the
breath and hand of God. Nothing is said about a physical, sexual
relationship between God and a woman to produce them, yet Adam is called
the "son of God" (Luke 3:38) and angels are called "sons of God." (Job
1:6; 2:1) We see, then, that a father is one who creates or gives life,
and there is a way of giving life other than sexual relations.

        The Bible states that God is the "Father" of All His creation
because He created it (gave it life) and sustains it. Consider the
following:

  "I have made the earth, and created man upon it... (Isa. 45:12. See
  also 42:5)

  "God...giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. (Acts 17:24-25)

  "...thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
  (Ps. 104:29. See also Job 12:10; 34:14-15; Dan. 5:23)

  "...O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. (Ps. 36:6)

  "...the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the
  foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
  (Zech. 12:1)

  "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit
  shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:7. See also 1 Cor. 6:20)

  "...God, the God of the spirits of all flesh... (Num. 16:22; 27:16)

        These verses of Scripture reveal that God is the Creator and
Sustainer of all, and in this sense, He can be called the Father of all
His creation. However, not all mankind will be in God's presence for
eternity just because He is their Creator and Sustainer. Only those
people who have been born of the Spirit (John 3:5) will be with God for
eternity. They become "the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
(Gal. 3:26) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John
1:12) God becomes one's Father for eternity when one trusts Jesus as his
personal sacrifice and Savior and is born of the Spirit.

        Since we have never preexisted with God as His spirit children,
Heb. 12:9 which calls God the "Father of spirits" is not referring to
the Mormon doctrine of preexis- tence and sexually-begotten spirit
children. In a general sense, it is referring to the fact that God is
the Creator and Sustainer of all our spirits. In the same sense, we are
all His "offspring." (Acts 17:29) In a specific, spiritual sense, God is
the Father only of those who are trusting in the Biblical Jesus and who
have been born of His Spirit. Only these people are called the spiritual
"offspring" of God. Neither "Father of spirits" nor "offspring" means
there was a physical, sexual relationship in a preexistent spirit world.

        The Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith said a father is one who gives
life. The Holy Spirit fits that requirement perfectly. The Bible reveals
that Mary was with child of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 1:20)

  "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother
  Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found
  with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matt. l:18)

  "And the angel...said...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the
  power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy
  thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
  (Luke 1:35)

        Joseph Fielding Smith argued that "reason" tells us Jesus could
not have been begotten by the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Ghost is
Spirit and Jesus is flesh and bones. Smith reasoned that it would have
taken someone with a flesh and bone body (such as Mormonism says the
father has) to produce a flesh and bone body for Jesus.

  "The fact being true that the Father has a tangible body and the Holy
  Ghost does not, then it stands to reason that the Holy Ghost is not
  the Father of Jesus Christ.... If it is true as Joseph Smith clearly
  declared, that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit only, then he
  did not create a body of flesh and bones for Jesus Christ, while, on
  the other hand, the Father having such a body, could, and did, create
  such a body and Jesus is in very deed the Only Begotten Son of God the
  Father in the flesh. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 5:126-127)

        There is a problem with Smith's reasoning that the Mormon
father, rather than the Holy Spirit, had to be Jesus' father. Smith
insisted that since the father has a tangible flesh and bone body only
he could have begotten the flesh and bone body for Jesus. The problem
with this reasoning is that although the Mormon god has a tangible body,
he can only produce "spirit" children. When he and his goddess wives
procreate, they can only produce spirit bodies -- not flesh and bone
bodies. That means, then, that the important factor in the conception of
Jesus was a mortal mother who could produce a mortal body for Him. The
key, therefore, to Jesus' mortal body is the mother, not the father.

        While Smith was opposed to the true doctrine that God, who is
Spirit, caused the virgin Mary to conceive a flesh and bone body, he did
not have any problem with the false doctrine that a flesh and bone being
can produce a spirit body. Remember, Smith stated that "when we lived in
the presence of our Father, we were not like him; we were just spirits.
We did not have bodies of flesh and bones, but he did." (Doctrines of
Salvation, 1:56-57)

Mark
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