From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Feminism's Lesbian Leaders (was: Why are there only men on)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:00:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan04.053120.7082@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.000601.10282@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <MUFFY.93Jan3141424@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan2.032141.18000@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>And a
>>male phychologist, like a female friend, is more likely to be involved
>>in a hetero relationship, and more likely to have ideas and motivation
>>to patch up an ailing relationship.
>
>It seems to me that you are assuming that a same-sex relationship is
>fundementally different from a mixed-sex relationship. Skills/knowledge
>learned in same-sex relationships and mixed-sex relationships are 
>mutually exclusive. Am I receiving your message correctly?

Lets just say that they are not identical experiences. It would seem that
any sex related problems (roles or having it) would be of a different nature.
"Mutually exclusive"? What makes you think that I meant that? I draw very
few absolutes, and it seems you have a tendency to interpret what I write
as black & white, all or none, mutually exclusive, etc... What gives?
 
>>>                                      So, for a woman who does not wish
>>>to stick with the societal roles, a lesbian might be the best person to
>>>advise her, as the lesbian has probably considered all possible roles
>>>for herself in relationships and made choices, rather than just
>>>following a predefined path.
>>
>>Thanks, you just make my point. She may have motivation to advise an
>>end to the relationship, for reasons having nothing to do with the
>>relationship per se. 
>
>You seem to be assuming that a lesbian will automatically try
>to "convert" any woman she can to her own sexual orientation.

No, you are assuming that I am. It -is- a distinct possibility that is
just not present in situations involving two heterosexuals. Of course, 
we have different kinds of problems there.

Again, what makes you think that I am so simplistic and one-dimensional?
I do not believe that it is what I actually write.
 
>Such an unethical creature might and probably does exist. However,
>in my own sexual identity struggles, it's the HETEROSEXUALS who
>tell me I'm "confused" and the lesbigays who tell me that only *I*
>can decide what's right for ME. 

"Sexual identity struggles"? Are you not saying yourself that you [were?]
confused?

>                                        It's also the lesbigays who go
>out of their way to state that they don't want to influence me
>- becuase they have been so often the target of het "evangelists".
>
>>>>How can one advise about something one knows little about,
>>>
>>>Why do you think that lesbians know "little" about relationships?  Why
>>>should they know any less than anyone else?
>>
>>Do lesbians know anything about HETERO relationships? Try to concentrate 
>>Muffy, it's another one of those context things you were grilling me 
>>about. And when I use the word lesbian, I am excluding bi-females, can
>>we talk about the same thing?
>
>Why are you assuming that all people who have ever had hetero experience
                           ----------

>are BI or het?  

Whatever are you talking about, and again you use ABSOLUTES. I was merely
attempting to avoid the condition that some lesbians (who are bi) do have
heterosexual relationships. I just wanted to exlcude something that I
was not talking about. Not that it helped any. Hows about laying some of
the myriad of assumptions you have about my *problem* (whatever you see it
as being)? I am getting tired of correcting assumptions almost every paragraph.

>90% of the population is het, most children (gay or straight)

A necessary condition, homosexual sex is barren.

>grow up with het parents, are groomed for het relationships, and 
>are surrounded by the het world. Why do you think that lesbians are
>so unable to learn from their experiences in the het world?

Do you think that they are able to -define- what is right and proper
in the het world? I do not.
 
>Most of the women I know who self-identify as lesbians have had het
>relationships. Not necessarily relationships that they considered
>"bad", just het relationships.

And the lesbians who have not had het relationships, or bad het relationships?
Do they have their act together?
 
>>The point is that some homosexuals find heterosexual relationships
>>either distastefull, or they literally hate heterosexuals. 
>
>Interesting. I've never met anyone with these views. Sounds like
>they're going to have problems in this world [much like the hets
>who hate lesbigays have problems, or [memberofrace1] who hates
>[memberofrace2] has problems].

I have had the unplesant experience of meeting a few in posting, they do
exist.
 
>I would be very surprised if a het asked such a person for relationship
>advice.  Assuming, of course, that the homosexual in question became
>friends with a het DESPITE their anti-het bigotry...from what you 
>describe, that's nearly impossible.

This is the part Robert Shaeffer brought up, if many of the leaders of the
feminst movement and publishers of feminist magazines are lesbians, then this
is exactly the situation that may exist. And I do not think that this
point is invalid, even if Diane cannot stomach the fact that Robert Shaeffer
posted it. Believe it or not, that does not automatically make it wrong,
even if they generally disagree.
 
>>Having
>>had the pleasure of conversing (so to speak) with a few flaming 
>>anti-heterosexual homosexual's on the net, I am not going to qualify their
>>existance. I will only state that I have no idea how prevalant this
>>is.
>
>Well, in my realife and net experience, it's 0%.  Maybe I'm not in 
>the right newsgroups <grin>

It ain't 0%, or you can pull a rini and claim that I am lying. :^)
I have noticed this on several newsgroups. Oddly, sci.skeptic has been
a major offender, and has the largest topic killfile of any newsgroup
that I read.
 
>-jen


Rich

payner@netcom.com



Newsgroups: alt.feminism