From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Raja i Papci
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 00:15:40 GMT

pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

>cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:

>>Anne's 
>	ANA's (sorry to be so picky, but my name is Ana, not Anne)

OK, sorry for that.  I am still confused with your intentions.  You are 
either trying to cover Serbian crimes with general phrases, as majority of
Serbs are doing today, or you know a little about ex-Yugo situation.  My
constatation is based on your usage of a few stupid Serbian lies and myths,
otherwise designed to function as a dogma: you believe and don't ask, if you
ask, you actually don't believe.  Let me try once more, and if you afterwards
feel urge to tell me that criminals are bad, and normal people are good,  it
is senseless for us to discuss further.

>	of the war! Don't you realize it!? It doesn't mean that
>	those criminals who crossed Drina and went to destroy
>	people in Bijeljina are not guilty, that those who sit
>	on the hills of Sarajevo, who bomb Jajce and Bihac are not
>	Guilty! On the contrary! For heavens sake, there is no
>	excuse!!! Yet, they are guilty not because they are Serbs!

Drina wasn't crossed by ordinary criminals, it was regular Serbian Army,
followed by few paramilitary groups, just to confuse the matter.  Sarajevo is
bombed due to decision of the highest and official Serbian authorities.
Theses authorities are elected, and supported by vast majority of Serbs.
You must understand, it is not an accident, it is conscious policy of one 
country.  If people who crossed Drina, bomb Jajce etc. are criminals, in that
case equasion Serbs=criminals holds.  Since, Serbia perpetuates, finances and
exercises all of the events you mentioned as a criminal deeds.  And, all 
Serbs are supportive, even if they are not so keen being personally involved. 


>	I am not giving any Chamberlaine-like arguments when I say
>	that the war has started and is going on because the people
>	on all sides are pumped up with hatered toward their own
>	^^^^^^^^^^^^
        brothers and sisters, neighbors and friends. The leaders
>	on all sides have first brought the whole country to the
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's simply not true.  It is only one of the stupid Serbian explanation
to justify their crimes.  However, it is one of the dogma-explanation.  You
should be Serbia-matter believer, to use and spread that rubish.  The phrase
"all sides blame" is unconsistent logicaly.  From the factual side, we 
ex-Yugoslaves remember very well how everything started with 8. Session,
Milosevic, "people movement and happening".  You have to face fact that 
nothing, even similar, was happening in any of other republics. 

>	hatered toward other NATIONS! At this point, most of the
>	PAPCI are Serbs. But are you really ready to say that
>	there are NO PAPCI among "SVI OSTALI"? (Not in order to
>	excuse the Serbs - but in order to fight the EVIL!)

It is not an issue. It doesn't mean anything.  We are all the same, that's for
sure.  Why do you raise that in this moment?  Who pretend to be "heaven's
nation"?  

>	put it in a different perspective: My article was aimed as much
>	at you (Muris), as at all others who read this newsgroup: including
>	some Serbs who have also fallen for the nationalism and similarly
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	to you construct equasions: PAPCI=Moslems/Croats. My article was
>	an attempt to tell them, too, to find their real enemy in the
>	ones who made them believe that other NATIONS are to blame and to
>	be satanized. Yes, we will not stop this war until we catch
>	our HITLER(S). And we will not stop the war until we understand
>	that HITLER is not GERMANS (KARADJIC/MILOSEVIC/ARKAN is not SERBS;
>	TUDJMAN/PARAGA/BOBAN is not CROATS; IZETBEGOVIC is not MUSLIMS; -
>	please feel free to add any other names of the criminals you
>	know on all sides, but don't blame the nations).

Very funny, 'some Serbs', and, yes, Milosevic with Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
You forgot Kucan.  Being humanist dictates you to recognise current evil
and real killers.  The problem is that Karadzic/Milosevic/Arkan IS SERBS,
there is popular support for them, and nobody realy protests.  

>	unfortunatelly appeared within all our peoples. Without any defending
>	the war criminals - let me just remind you why Croatia had to wait
>	from June 1991 to December 1991 to be recognized by UN. Because
>	their constitution (written by certain individuals - not all
>	Croats) did not recognize Serbs as a minority nor anything else!
>	The Serbian nation or minority if you whish, was not even mentioned
>	among all other minorities and provisions for them in the new
>	independent country! To change THAT, was the condition UN gave
>	Croatia in order to recognize it. Now, is that not madness?

Again, Serbian dogma-lie.  You may either thrust, or recognise the truth on 
the other side.  The historical circumstances caused the lag in recognition 
of Croatia, by the way.  The solution in Constitution was not to count all
minorities: it is legitimate, you can either mention all of them, or none, 
by using general description.  The misleading explanation you gave is only
one in the row of excuses prepared in Belgrade, with intention to start a
war.  BTW, whatever Croatia did in 1991, haven't mattered anymore.  The war
was prepared long before, Croatian communist leaders were already called
"ustase".  "Certain individuals" came later as very nice support.

>	Many things are confusing in this war, and many of us don't know
>	all there is to know to make a right judgement. 

Congratulation!  It is worthless trying to help you, let me cry and beg:
Dubrovnik, Kertes, Vukovar, Karadzic, United Nations, Sarajevo, Ethnic
Cleansing, Bijeljina, Seselj, Manjaca, Crncevic, Jajce, Kozarac, Jovic,
Raping, Omarska, Property Transfer Certificates, Mazowiecky, Milosevic,
Mladic, Refugees, My Mother and My Father and My Sister and My Yard and
My Childhood and My Job and My First Love and My Children....

        But, I know this:
>	there is a great number of Serbian people who do not support that 
>	madness, there is a great number of Serbs that have deserted (some
>	say around 40.000 young men have run away to various countries
>	in order to avoid the draft (last year), there is a great number of
>	Bosnian Serbs that are not supporting this madness (some of them
>	have even been executed by the war criminals because of that), there
>	are so called "loyal" Serbs in Bosnia, who even fight (!) among
>	the Bosnian troups against the agressor... There are Serbs - refugees
>	from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina... Serbs who are against
>	this madness are not just isolated heroic figures like Thomas Man,
>	they are also "raja"! It is simply NOT true that ALL Serbs are PAPCI.

Nobody says that.  Again, I have problems understanding Serbian affiliation
for fascism.  Look around, Ana, all those Vidics, Malenovics, Stojanovics,
Pavlovics, Draskovics, they are far from Serbia, they are getting real
information, and they are doing their best to confuse the truth.  Even
deserters, students, remember their behavior with Mr Levy.  The handfull of 
normal and reasonable people on the other side, can't explain why whole nation
started to behave crazy.

>	All I am defending is sanity: do look around and see who are
>	the ones who brought us in this hell, who profit from our
>	fighting and misery, who HAVE POWER to send troups or to stop
>	them, who decide about destiny of millions of ordinary "raja",
>	who play games with all of us! We can only defend them if we
>	all desert! 

I don't understand you.  The whole world clearly denoted Milosevic and Serbia
as initiator and perpetuators of Balkan's war.  If you have problem with that
simple fact, I can't help. Do you know what is happening?  Are you misinformed,
or you believe that we deserve to vanish?  Do you advise us to surrender?
We, Bosnians, shouldn't and mustn't desert.  We have to defend ourselves,
it is our highest duty and right.  If Serbs desert, the war will stop.  If
Bosnians desert, they all will be killed.

Muris