HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 11:36:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.055037.29390@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
> ...or run text-based program from other floppy disks.  Can the Amiga 
> boot off a floppy?  Uh huh.  Then what do the vast majority of 
> Amigans do?  *Right*.  They swap disks.

Well, I fit the Manx C development kit, including an editor, and a term program
onto a floppy that boots me up into Workbench. On my second drive I had the
application and appropriate libraries.

On a single-drive machine the best you could probably manage would be to use
a word-processor or spreadsheet. You know, the things most DOS users do most
of the time.

Not to mention that the Amiga *manages* disks. Once you launch an app, you
can pull out the floppy and it will request the volume you need by name when
you need it. Much better than DOS, or even the Mac (where guessing which
drive it's going to save a file on is a game of chance).
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gduncan@philips.oz.au (Gary Duncan)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 11:15:10 GMT
Organization: Philips Public Telecommunications Systems, Melbourne, Australia
Subject: Happy New Year ( Mark Barrett included)

2 hours to go ( Down Under) to a Brave New Year and there is a
conspicuous lack of fireworks and champagne (metaphorically speaking)
amongst the c.s.a.a topics !

Anyway, thanks to all 1992 c.s.a.a. contributors. My day at work doesn't
really start until I've perused the group and , like a Roman viewing
the Lions v. Christians, revelled in the bloodshed.

Keep it up in '93 :)  Please keep lurking, Marc...

- Gary  


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Duncan			gduncan@rosella.pts.philips.oz.au	
Philips Public Telecommunications Systems    Phone: +61 3 8813666
Melbourne, Australia      		       Fax: +61 3 8813577
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy)
Subject: Re: Monitors for the A4000???
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:39:48 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1hqauiINN48f@pith.uoregon.edu> ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.113559.24659@tdb.uu.se> m92mli@tdb.uu.se (Mikael Lindgren) writes:
>>
>>I`m planning to by an A4000 but I don`t know what monitor to buy.
>>The preformance of the CBM1960 didn`t satisfy me at all, it can`t handle all the resolutions! (from what I have seen it can`t display Productivity (800x600))
>   If you have the extra $300 or so to get the NEC 4FG, do it. I'd only really 
>recommend the 1960 if you're on a budget.

The NEC 4FG will not scan down to NTSC scan rates (at least the one on my
desk wont!). Since the A1200 and A4000 boot in NTSC mode when you
get them it might be nice to have a monitor that does this.


>
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)               "Infinite Laser Dog" Development Team
>All opinions expressed are my own.          ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu, BIX: ggiles
>Willy Beamish (MS-DOS CD-ROM, Sega-CD), Space Quest V (MS-DOS), A10 1.5 (Amiga)


-- 
"Apple's attitude toward its ROM code is a little like that of a rich kid
toward his inheritance. Not actually knowing how to create wealth himself,
he guards what he has with hysterical fervor." - John Perry Barlow
MAIL : IANK@MICROSOFT.COM			 Crime and Puzzlement
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipsets
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 21:04:22 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Mr. Mike" Passaretti (mrmike@michelotti.ae.ge.com) wrote:
:
: jerry> My OS/2 programming experience is mostly with
: jerry> application-level software using the Presentation
: jerry> Manager, but I've read a lot about OS/2 design.
:
: Right.  We're hearing discussion on what makes an OS from an
: applications programmer.  That's like asking a day care
: teacher for advice on conception techniques.  Why don't you
: listen to the folks who _write_ operating systems and system
: software for a living.
:

Even if I were "just an applications programmer" (and I'm not), why am
I any less qualified than you to say what is and what is not an operating
system?  Is a driver any less qualified than a mechanic to say what is
and what is not a car?  OS's don't exist for OS developers; they exist
for application programmers and users; *they* are the ones who define what
goes into an OS, not you.

:
: passaretti@crd.ge.com           {whatever}!crdgw1!copernicus!passaret
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: mike@rahul.net (Mike Smithwick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tandy Unveils 16-Million-Color CD-ROM Multimedia system
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:37:50 GMT
Organization: a2i network

In article <BzLGBw.J22@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>In article <1h2qfkINNjg9@bigboote.WPI.EDU> jdutka@wpi.WPI.EDU (John Dutka) writes:
>>In article <BzKosp.2zF@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>>   It looks like Commodore really is going to be the last major personal
>>>computer company to bring out a desktop computer with a CD-ROM drive.  Really
>>>pathetic.
>>
>>You mean the CDTV (A500)?
>
>   The CDTV isn't a computer.  Commodore said so.
>
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------

Another jewel from the crown if ignorance. 

After the initial CDTV intro
CA changed their collective minds and started calling the CDTV a computer.

They had to for 2 reasons: To explain the existance of keyboards and drives, 
and to counteract CD-I, showing how much more powerful the CDTV was since
it was a "real computer".


-- 
This message brought to you by the Happy Fun Ball! It's Happy! It's
fun!! It's the HAPPY FUN BALL!!! (Still legal in 16 states)
*** Mike Smithwick - mike@rahul.net 
*** No disclaimer is necessary since I only work for myself, HA! HA! HA! HA!
From: jagrizza@uncc.edu (James A Grizzard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Comic books =)
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:06:11 GMT
Reply-To: jagrizza@uncc.edu
Organization: University of NC at Charlotte

In article 2301@seas.gwu.edu, gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>>gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>>>das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>>>>Yeah, and I could sell all my comics and get an Amiga600 to hook upto
>>>>my TV, BUT I'M NOT. 
>>>
>>>Ha, I am considering doing just that--not for an A600, of course.  I'd get
>>>an A1200.  I've got over 1500 comics rotting away at home...
>>
>>hm really?  What do you collect?  I haven't collected in a while, but
>>have a lot of Marvel mutant-type comic from 4-5 years ago.       
>
>It's been years for me, too.  I've got loads of Marvel, DC, and independent
>comics (First Comics, Comico, Eclipse, etc.).  Man, this brings back
>memories...
>
>Anyone interested in a comic book sale?
>
>-- Gerald

I'm hunting for old ElfQuests... have any of those you want to get rid of?

:)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Subject: Re: Portable GUI Builders and *YOU* (Call now!)
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:07:05 GMT

In article <BzoI61.CoE@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jake Rose)
writes:

>Two ads in the most recent Byte (which contained a fair review of the
>A4000 and A3000T, by the way) from XVT Software Inc (1-800-678-7988)
>and Case Design (1-800-880-1100) offer products for interface creation
>which support multiple platforms, but *neither* supports the Amiga.
>XVT even claims that they support "all GUIs"!...

Why not save your breath and do something constructive? Inovatronics has
been working on AppBuilder in conjunction with CBM for the past couple
of years. If you want to express some interest in an application of this
sort, give them a call:

Inovatronics: (214) 340-4991
 
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32346 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19202
From: pjotr@ludd.luth.se (Peter Sj|str|m)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:04:45 GMT
Organization: Lule} Tekniska H|gskolas Datorf|rening - Ludd

In <C01HAx.LGq@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:

>   I can think of one right off the bat.  Commodore's problem is that the bulk
>of their sales are to these electronically-ignorant individuals who use their
>computers as home computers.  Even the bulk of A3000 and A4000 sales are to
>people who use them as home computers.  I would even bet that the majority of
>Commodore's Amiga UNIX systems went to individuals who used them as home
>computers.

	You finally understood it... The Amiga has always been a home computer!
It is now also gaining in the video and multimedia market, but it is and
will always be, I think, a very competent home computer. I don't see the
use for CBM to sell the Amiga as a unix system or word processor or
<business software> computer. The video and multimedia markets are still
kids compared to other computer markets today. :)

		/Peter
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:29:21 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Psigon Matrix....do you DOUBT us?? (martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU) wrote:
: >
: >I disagree.  Why is it, then, that Amiga programs *don't* have consistent
: >user interfaces?  IMHO, screens are useful on the Amiga for two reasons.
: >First, they are a speed optimization, which isn't necesary on systems with
: >decent GUI performance. 
:
: I wouldn't say so...it is a definate advantage (other than speed) to beable
: to have a unique palette for eache screen, other wise you end up w/ the
: hideous palette mapping like on the Macs.
:

Funny.  When we were discussing cheap hi-color SVGA cards, Amiga buffs said,
"Why do you need so many colors?"  I said, "Suppose you want to display two
8-bit images at once."  I was flamed out of the thread.  Now they're talking
about how *screens* alleviate palette-overlap problems.

:
: > Second, some applications need to work at certain
: >screen resolutions, and this wouldn't be the case if the Amiga had DIG.
:
: Well its quite handy to have a 320x200 screen (game/paint prog, etc...) and
: also have a 1280x512 CAD screen at the same time....
:

It's funny how Amigoids love to assume that "Only Amiga Makes It Possible".
I routinely run several command line sessions, a game, and the Windows
(or OS/2) desktop, each in its own screen on a PC with VGA.

:
: and as far as performance
: goes on the Amigas GUI, I believe from experience that you would be hard
: pressed to beat the speed of the Amigas Windowing.
:

Actually, I'd be hard pressed to find a 640x200 4-color Windows screen to
compare with an Amiga.

:
:           Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: jonallen@acsu.buffalo.edu (Jon J. Allen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Amiga = Real Machine!
Date: 3 Jan 93 05:11:14 GMT
Organization: SUNY AT BUFFALO Computer Science
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

I have been writing machine Vision software for the PC for 3 years now,
and many of the BIG problems that I had when I started, has still not
been solved.  My Frame Grabber is mapped in extended memory.  This
means that the 640K mark makes it unreadable for the most part.

Cheeper frame grabbers for the PC use slower port memory methods, which
makes it work so SLOW.

So, I use methods to fool the 386 processor into reading the frame 
grabber.  But if you use my software with any other memory managment
or operating system shit, a protection fault is the result.

So, I wanted to get DOS extenders to do it right.   I purchased
Zortech C++ because it comes with a free DOS extender.  But after
getting it, it does not let you read any hardware devices.  So, then
I got a Phar Lapp DOS extender.  This let me do just what I wanted to,
but they want some big kickbacks to let you use them.  

So, I just got a FlashTek dos extender which is just a better DOSX
extedner that comes with my Zortech C++.  

All this I was able to fix and more with my Amiga in one week end.
The PC Game Sucks...  The world is sick!



--
--Jon-J-Allen--jonallen@cs.buffalo.edu----Computer-Science--SUNY-@-Buffalo-NY--
"We forsake you - Gonna rape you - Let's forget you ... better still."
                                                        - the who

-- 
--Jon-J-Allen--jonallen@cs.buffalo.edu----Computer-Science--SUNY-@-Buffalo-NY--
"Lets think of a game to play, now that the grownups have gone away." - the who
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32236 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19103
From: andrey@cco.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 27 Dec 1992 08:33:34 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:

>Dislikes:

> o CBM forbids internal expansion by owners

	A very workable solution to this is to find a dealer
who is more understanding of the user than C= apparently
is, who is willing to honor your warranty despite your
admission that you did open your computer.  Either that
or lie through your teeth.  It is incredibly stupid and
backwards for C= to void warranties because you told them
you opened up your computer (mine was an A3000).  It is
even more incredulous when they show you how to open up
your computer and install all sorts of peripherals
without any sort of disclaimer.

	As for going to my closest dealer and having them 
open it for me, mine is 25 miles away, how about yours?

--Andre

-- 
             Andre Yew andrey@cco.caltech.edu (131.215.139.2)
From: drchip@tbag.tscs.com (Myron Lieberman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are EA and SSI really dropping support for the Amigas?
Date: 25 Dec 92 23:42:34 EST
Organization: Tampa Bay Amiga Group

EA is selective about Amiga products, but they haven't dropped support.
Las week it was announced that a complete rewrite of DMCS will be released RSN. 

--- Via UCI v1.02 (C-Net Amiga)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:50:03 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: phoenix.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Philip McDunnough (philip@utstat.toronto.edu) wrote:
:
: The biggest hype around surrounds all these 486's and their fast 
: hard drives, which for the most part are still running 8 bit software and
: can't figure out which interrupts are taken.
:  

Interesting statement, Philip.  The original PC had an 8088 CPU.  How does
one write 8-bit software for a 16-bit (internal) CPU?

:
: Philip McDunnough
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32317 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19186 rec.games.chess:12096
From: bmccnnll@unix1.tcd.ie (Barry McConnell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc,rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: UChess205.lha Uploaded to anon ftp sites
Date: 29 Dec 92 13:23:50 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

In <1992Dec27.225948.27030@crash> uzun@crash.cts.com (Roger Uzun) writes:

>ECS graphics are not real pretty, but unfortunately it is
>primarily an AGA game.  It plays just as strong chess
>either way.

Well, the graphics were lovely in v1.0 under ECS, so perhaps you could
change them back again in a later version, or have two sets of graphics
which users can swap between? I appreciate that you only want to cater
for AGA users, but that sorta limits your market. :-)  I for one would
consider registering in the future if it became Shareware, and you
implemented some of the changes I mentioned to you in e-mail (which you
got, right?).

Cheers,

Barry.
(Typing from his Mac at work - spit...)
From: monster@mbear.apana.org.au (Martin Ozolins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn-beta 1.16g (10.12.92) by Michael B. Smith & Mike Schwartz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:05:20 PST
Organization: Bears Incorporated

In article <1992Dec27.201849.28679@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
> John Bickers (jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
> :
> : > :     What worthwhile PC OS has programs with consistent user
> : > :     interfaces?
> :
> : > Windows and OS/2.
> :
> :     Windows isn't a worthwhile PC OS,
> :
> 
> Why, because *you* don't consider it such?  Fortunately, there are millions
> of people out there who don't consider you the ultimate authority in OS's.
> 

Pls do not start this again Jerry, the last time you did you went away 
for a few weeks after you were proved incorrect about what an OS is

> :
> :     [Snap]
> :
> :     It's how you cut and paste without resorting to the clipboard.
> :     Clipboards are undesirable ways to transfer data. For example,
> :     suppose I want to snap a column of article numbers out of a
> :     MicroEMACS window, I hold down C= and drawn the rectangle around
> :     the column.
> :
> :     Then to do something with the numbers, I can paste them as a
> :     column (with an optional quote character), or I can paste them as
> :     a line, with simple keystroke combinations.
> :
> 
> Both Windows and OS/2 can do this, without extra software, although I'm
> not sure about column insertion.

SO can it or can it not ? Which is true ?

-- 

Martin Ozolins :Internet monster@mbear.apana.org.au
Victoria       :FIDO 3:633/359.6 AMIGANET 41:300/359.6 TRINET 42:8699/8.6
Australia      :Amiga Programmer, UniSYS 1100/2200 Systems Programmer 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gcastrat@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Giancarlo Castrataro)
Subject: Windows Lameness
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:42:04 GMT

     Ok, about a day ago I was using my friend's 486 / 33 / 256k cache 
/ Trident SVGA / Whatever (Computer) with Windows, and it was virtually
unusable in the 16 color mode, from my point of view.  I don't use GUIs very
often, but this really crawled compared to my 3000 at home.  Don't give me 
this "It's not the computer's fault, just Microsoft's problem" argument.  
The fact is that most IBM users use Windows, and are lucky if they even have
a 486.  I wouldn't go around comparing Windows on a 386 with a 60840 Amiga 
running SVR4, now would I?  Ah, the final argument: bitlanes: well, for one
thing it was only running 16 colors, and my Amiga doesn't even have AGA or a 
graphics card / coprocessor.

-Giancarlo V. Castrataro

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: andyp@admiral.uucp (Andy Patrizio)
Subject: Re: Bill "I Scream for Ice Cream" Gates
Reply-To: andyp@admiral.uucp (Andy Patrizio)
Organization: The Grid/Waffle BBS, 203-661-2873, -1279, -0450, -2967
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:50:14 GMT

tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:

> In article <1992Dec17.194937.5932@microsoft.com>iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kenne
> 
> >Once upon a time the world's wealthiest bachelor wanted some ice cream.
> >So he hopped in his zippy car of choice and zipped over to
> >(insert store here). Upon ariving at the ice cream section he selected
> >the flavor he wanted and proceded to pay for the ice cream. But here's
> >the hang up : he had a coupon!...
> 
> Boy, I bet these stories get embellished every time they go around the
> office :). For anyone who's interested, Robert X. Cringely has an interesting
> account of the industry in "Accidental Empires: How the Boys of Silicon
> Valley Make Their Millions, Battle Foreign Competition, And Still Can't
> Get a Date." Hygiene and sexual exploits seem to be a recurring motif.
> 
> [I see an opportunity for a post Dan...]
> 
> BTW, did Bill ever get his Porsche back together?
> 

There's a new biography on Gates coming out. The title, as you'd expect, 
is "Gates." This looks a little more in-depth and fair rather than "Ha 
ha, look at the geeks" like "Hard Drive" was. There was one picture of 
Gates that had me on the floor, though. Mucho geeky. One of his old 
girlfriends wasn't bad, though.

Once I finish the "Wing Commander" novel I'm reading I'll check it out. 
And yes, Origin did make a sci fi novel based on "Wing Commander."

--
andyp%admiral.uucp@yale.edu (Andy Patrizio) <yale!admiral!andyp>
The Admiral's Public UNIX - Greenwich, CT - System Administrator: Doug Fields
(HST/V32) (203)661-2873 -- (PEP/V32) -1279 -- (V32) -0450 -- (V29/MNP6) -2967
>FREE!< Unix shell accounts, Usenet access, and Internet-style mail available
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipsets
Date: 24 Dec 92 11:49:10 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Dec22.174758.22891@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> by jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel):

> although an OS/2 program can freely erase important files from the (local)
> disk, the really crucial stuff (kernel, shared libs, drivers) is still

    What do you mean by "really crucial"? If you flake out your OS/2
    CONFIG.SYS file, in my experience you can no longer boot the
    system. Then you have to make up a boot disk...

    People in OS/2 echoes in Fidonet (admittedly very few people) have
    reported wiping out their HDs in one way or another, having to
    re-install to recover.

> | JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***