From: rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richard Carlson)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Aggression in boys (Was: Re: BARBIE
Date: 14 Oct 92 09:51:33 GMT

lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:

> Regarding your question, how do you begin to discus victim behavior, etc:
> I dont actually know the answer to this, but I suspect that the forum may
> be the key. I am sure there are newsgroups/professional organizations/journal
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  and colleagues out there where this discussion can take place without people
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> getting upset.

The surprising thing is that there are not.  There are only a
handful of psychologists studying the phenomenon of bullies and
bullying and no journals or organizations with a primary or even
secondary interest in it.  Lately there has been a surge of
interest in the problem of violence in the schools -- _real_,
serious violence, with guns and knives -- but there are few
professionals studying even that and none of them connect it with
the dynamics of traditional bullying, although the connection
looks pretty clear to me.

I've started threads on the bully myth in literary conferences
such as alt.postmodern, but the interest is minimal.  You would
suppose that a professionally related Newsgroup like
sci.psychology would be an obvious venue, but the posters there
have little interest in the topic.  I've tried to discuss various
legal and procedural remedies in legal conferences but experts in
juvenile law have no interest in the legal or procedural remedies
one juvenile has available to h/er against the unwanted aggression
of another juvenile.  (The theoretical and research interest in
the juvenile justice system focuses on the rights of the juvenile
with respect to adult authority.)  The people posting here are
probably more interested in the topic either because of their own
experiences as children or because -- most of them being
intelligent parents they have intelligent children and there seems
to be some association between some kinds of intelligence and
victimization -- they are concerned with possible run-ins their
own children may have with bullies.

> But if you honestly think you can come into a discussion whre
> people are talking about being "victims"  and decide to have this discussion,
> well then I suppose you deserve to get flamed because it was tactless and
> insensitive. I followed your arguments thru your numerour postings, and didnt
> feel like I got any practical insight if my children are ever bullies or
> victims. All I felt is that you were just a bit obnoxious.

The reason you didn't get any practical insights is that I don't
have any, or at least not very clear ones.  I haven't got any idea
what to do in the case of the victim.  Each situation has to be
looked at as a completely fresh problem because if there are
general guidelines no one has found them.  In the case of the
bullies I think I can do something.  For years I tried all the
recommended procedures, of which there aren't many anyway.  It is
really quite frustrating to spend hours doing biofeedback and
hypnosis with an aggressive kid, teaching him to relax and giving
him control of his behavior and then finding out that he got into
another fight in school anyhow.  So I usually asked something
like, "Did you take a secret deep breath, feel your hands getting
warm and decide what _you_ wanted to do?"  It got frustrating to
hear the kid answer, "Yeah.  I decided what I wanted to do was hit
him!"  So lately I've been analyzing the stories we hear that tell
a kid that the right thing to do is be aggressive.  (Bullies often
see themselves as "fighting back," not so much against aggression
but against "nerdy" kids whose very being seems to be an affront
of some unclear kind which calls for aggression.)

> is that how you interpreted it? well, maybe we can make allowences for it
> because maybe you arent aware that misc.kids has this discussion all the
> time. I thought Lynn was merely discounting the idea that is you fight back,
> you wont get bullied.

That, of course, is one of the most interesting questions of all.
Under what circumstances will fighting back pay off and under what
other ones will it merely legitimate the bully's aggression?

--
Richard Carlson
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