HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spencer@der.Princeton.EDU (S. Spencer Sun)
Subject: The "holy s---" effect
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: spencer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (S. Spencer Sun)
Organization: Society for Promotion of Entropy in the Universe (SPEU)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:20:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.035753.5353@Princeton.EDU>, dem@cs.princeton.edu (Doron Meyer) writes:
>Hello again everyone.
       ^^^^^
I apparently missed the first message he posted... Doron and I have
known each other casually for about two years now, is it?

>I'm starting to contemplate coming out selectively to very
>close friends.

My reaction upon reading this (actually, upon reading the thread title
and seeing his name in the poster's name column, because the two
together told me all I needed to know) was one of utter, complete,
knock-me-over-with-a-feather, jaw-hits-the-floor (you get the picture)
surprise.  I would _never_ have guessed.

Now that I'm over it, I'm extremely amused at myself for reacting that
way.  After all, I often think to myself about some of my other friends
who don't know yet that I'm gay, and I think "Gosh, it's funny how he
has _no_ idea!"  So in light of that there's absolutely no reason I
should have been surprised to see this, and in fact I'm a bit ashamed to
be admitting this.

Some time back (over the summer) Mr. Zwicky started a thread about the
"oh" experience.  Seems appropriate to call this the "holy shit!"
effect.  Is this more likely a product of my not having been out for very
long, or to very many people; or does this effect sort of stay with
you?

BTW, this _is_ intended to be somewhat light-hearted, so if it doesn't
come across that way, it's because it's getting late.  Not to take away
from what Doron is contemplating, because it is, IMO, a serious decision
and a serious undertaking.  But I still can't help laughing at myself
for making the same assumption about Doron that I find mildly amusing when
other people make it about me.

(At the risk of overstressing the point, let me emphasize that it isn't
the potential reaction which is amusing, because as recent testimonials
have shown, people's reaction to this kind of news can be very nasty
indeed.  It's the fact that they _don't_ _know_ that is worth perhaps a
smirk, in a perverse, childish sort of way.)

Can anyone make sense out of this posting or have I been up too long?

-----
sss / Princeton University Class of 1994 / Department of Computer Science
Life *is* pain, Highness.  Anyone who says differently is selling something.
[_The Princess Bride_]
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay soda! I'm so excited!
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 21:08:55 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1993Jan21.120353.3202@spdcc.com> <1993Jan21.222526.3299@macc.wisc.edu>
  <C18JLF.91u@queernet.org>

Roger B.A. Klorese writes:
>Jess Anderson writes:
>>But coffee is hot and contains neither cream nor sugar.
>>Anything else is something else.
> 
>It *is* George!!

C'mon, Roger -- you should know better.  I save my dogmatism
for computers and Ursine issues.  I'd never get this wound up
over *coffee*.  I don't even **LIKE** coffee.

I do like tea, though, in a number of different modes of 
preparation -- so to all of you who say there is One True Way
To Drink Tea -- **GET A LIFE!** 

;-{)##]
 
() All my life I wanted to be somebody. Now I realize I
() should have been more specific.
()      -- Lilly Tomlin
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
From: jcav@kimbark.uchicago.edu (JohnC)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: FAX PRESIDENT CLINTON (*AND* GENERAL COLIN POWELL)
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:48:24 GMT
Reply-To: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu
Followup-To: alt.politics.homosexuality
Organization: The Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things

(I'm sorry to be following up to the AAP-object here soc.motss.  I've
directed followups to alt.politics.homosexuality)

In article <1993Jan26.200551.25160@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>What makes you think that this is Clinton and the Right WIng only?
>Why would you believe that only Right Wingers oppose the idea?
>Last night, during the news hour in the Fox Network, they claimed
>to have gotten more than 8000 calls in less than one hour, and that
>73% of them were against the lift of the ban.
>Or those who oppose the lifting are homophobes and bigots like those
>in Colorado?

I don't know why I'm bothering with you, AAP, since I'm certain you only
post here because of the pleasure you derive from baiting people.

Question:  Does the degree of support which a social policy receives have
           any bearing whatever upon the morality of said policy?

Answer:    No.

-- 
JohnC | queer person | jcav@midway.uchicago.edu | B0 f++ w c+ g++ k+ s++ e h- p
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Clinton Gets Earful at Open House
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:30:30 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <1993Jan23.022927.19541@reed.edu>,
nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> >>"And I wanted to call my parents.  But they aren't talking to me for
> >>the last 11 years because I'm a lesbian.  I hope your Administration
> >>will change that."
> ...
> It's obvious - she wants Clinton to cure her.
> 
> At least, that's the way I read it the first time. What's the
> technical term for this sort of sentence problem?

Search me.

-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*amphibology* n. a phrase or sentence ambiguous not in its
individual words but in its construction"
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay soda! I'm so excited!
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:49:24 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

[Posted to soc.motss only, because I just say no to crossposting.]

In article <C1F6Az.Bo2@cck.coventry.ac.uk>,
idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
> This is *real* coffee we're talking about;
> you can do what you like with instant,
> because I'll hardly ever drink it anyway.

I'm just back from Scotland,
and while visiting some friends in Edinburgh
(no, you don't know them)
I found, having offered to make coffee,
that there was only instant coffee available.
Not wishing to embarrass my hosts, I persevered,
but I had to think for several seconds to remember how to do it.

[This .sig was chosen automatically, honest.]
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*Land o' the Leal* the home of the blessed after death - heaven,
not Scotland" -- Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary (1952)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: Clinton Names White House E-Mail Director
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:50:17 GMT



From Communications Daily, 1/19/93...

    The Clinton Administration will become the first presidency
    to have an official responsible for making official
    Presidential documents widely available using electronic
    distribution.  Jonathan Gill has been named Director of
    Electronic Publishing and Public Access E-Mail.  During the
    campaign, an E-mail system he created answered some 5,000
    queries, most being sent out automatically.  He will work
    with Jeff Eller, the new deputy assistant to the President
    and director of Media Affairs.  Eller is said to have moved
    computer communications into the mainstream of political
    campaigning.  Eller made Clinton's position papers available
    via such electronic venues as CompuServe, GEnie and Internet.
    Clinton's communications team is said to favor direct
    communication with the public via electronic media.  Eller
    hopes to make the White House a model for other federal
    agencies in this regard.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: State Appeals Amendment 2 Ruling (Boulder's Daily Camera article)
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:10:19 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <2750532026011993/A10860/OUTLAW/1171D5333100*@mrgate.uwyo.edu> LASAGA@corral.uwyo.edu (LASAGA) writes:
>   The Attorney General's Office also has asked the Supreme Court
>to hurry its ruling on the appeal. "This is an extraordinary step,
>and directly implicates the right of the people of the state of
>Colorado to self-government," the motion states.

It's too bad that the people of Colorado didn't care about Denver, Boulder, 
and Aspen's right to self-government.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Pedophilia as sexual orientation
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:23:16 GMT
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology

I'm not sure I accept the chain of thought that begins with "there is a power
imbalance" and ends with "all child-adult sexual contact is therefore rape".
Perceptions of power, power imbalance, and the negative (and positive?) effects
of it are all theoretical constructs bounced around by academicians.  

There is a power imabalnce between men and women.

Therfore women cannot give free consent in their relationships with men.

Therefore all sexual acts between men and women are nonconsensual from the
woman's persepective.

Therfore all sexual acts between men and women are acts of rape by the male,
he should be punished.

And it doesn't matter what the woman says, or believes, it' still rape.

How is "power" operationalized?  How much power is enough power to make a 
relationship inherently nonconsensual, despite the "victim's" feelings on
the matter?  has anyone really done any research into how victims of child
molestation may differ, or not differ, from those who "willingly" had sex with
adults?  Is it completely black-and-white?  What are the shades of grey?

Men effectively owned women for a big chunk of our history (and arguably still
do in some cultures and under some conditions).  One of the arguments 
supporting this position is that they are inherently inferior intellectually,
and cannot make informed choices, and must be protected, even from themselves.
In what ways does this perception of women's cognitive abilities differ from
outr perception of children, and their ability to decide what they want for
themselves?  Is it completely different, and why or why not?

I don't know how I feel about this stuff.  I had a much older beau when I
was 17; they dropped the age of consent from 18 to 16 when we were dating.
Was he molesting a powerless minor one day, then engaging in consensual sex
between peers (at least in this arena) the next?  i don't trust the "All
pedophiles/boy-lovers are EVIL" reaction, but at the same time I don't trust
the "8 year olds can give consent" position, either.

Joe,
babbling on and on...
From: tim@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson)
Subject: Re: Nancy Reagan [eeeeek!]
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
	<1993Jan22.151510.5640@dvorak.amd.com>
	<1993Jan22.170219.21284@tc.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:16:24 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ah505@yfn.ysu.edu (Brian Quinby)
Subject: Re: Pedophilia as sexual orientation
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 06:57:42 GMT



Bill (snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) (again, I don't know
how to make all those funny marks)

quotes Maria:

"  Both involve acts of
>violence and/or abuse of power." and adds "nonconsent."

WRONG.

This sounds like typical breeder crap the likes of which
Dworkin and the other mavens of the kiddie victemization scam
would like everyone to beleive in.

Unfortunately it is not always true.

Minors can and do give consent. If it is for streight sex, it
gets glorified. If it is for gay sex it is a totally different
story. As one who has been sexually active since I was 12 and
actively persued several adults as well as agemates, I know
from whre I speak.

Nonconsensentual sex is rape. No arguement. It doesn't matter
if there are gender or age differences or similarities. Rape
is a violent crime deserving of far harsher and more frequent
punishment than it actually gets. Consentual sex ought not
to be punished.

And don't bring up the "two year old" arguement, please.

	Brian
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Audrey
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:20:04 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <C1Gu3M.rt@hpuerca.atl.hp.com>, mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike
Reaser) wrote:

> >Dolphie has spoken (not that I had any doubts...).  I think, perhaps,
> >Miss Hepburn will still manage to sleep nights, though it is
> >extremely unlikely the opinions of such cultural giants as Adolphson
> >and (<snort>) Reaser will ever reach her ears.
> 
> Oh, boy, I'm just so _excited_!  The Kultur Kween from Apple apparently
> holds me in as much contempt as he does Jess and Arne!

Poor Bear (Pooh Bear?) - learn to read between the lines.  In 
particular, please notice the (<snort>).  I'm afraid that, even
as furballs go, you rather difficult to hold in contempt.  For
that matter, I don't particularly hold Dolphie in contempt.
Jezeboo is unique.

This has all been a rather predictable romp - which you have made
somewhat less predictable, and I suppose I might even have to
thank you for it.  If my confidence in K. Hepburn's talent was
in danger of being shaken by a mummy-before-his-time from West
Hollywood - of all Godless ghettos - I would never have brought her
up.  But I hadn't expected *two* delightful mummies-beyond-their-time
to join in.  I'm surprised the Portland Pup hasn't left a puddle
of piddle around here, yet...  But I suppose he is still formulating
an opinion.  You can't have everything.

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tim@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson)
Subject: Re: Clinton may not issue Executive Order
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
	<28191@sybase.sybase.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:43:47 GMT

In article <28191@sybase.sybase.com> black@sybase.com (Chris Black)
writes: 

   The question is whether or not he appears to be pushing the
   military around -- which would be politically expensive for him at 
   this point in time.  

He's the boss.  It's in the Constitution.  Commander-in-Chief.  He
gets to push them around.  It's in the job description.  I hope he
*enjoys* it.

   If doing it in a roundabout way lets him conserve his political 
   capital for other battles, I say more power to him.

Uh, this might be really selfish on my part, but I really want him to
do this in a very public way.  I wanna see him spend, actually invest
is a better word, a little political capital on this.  

Regardless of the perception that the military is a bunch of right
wing cranks, the military is a great moderating force in America.  The
enlisted men and women come from everywhere:  all geographical
regions, all political bents, all sexual orientations and practices.
I think some of us are failing to imagine just how much impact this
will have, how much easier it will be to get federal gay rights
legislation passed because of it.

   And I really don't think we should be considering putting pressure
   on Clinton when he's doing the right thing, just not in the way we
   might prefer.  Let's save it for when he's doing the wrong thing.

I think he's gonna do the right thing.

--
Tim Wilson
Internet:  tim@ear-ache.mit.edu	
UUCP:  mit-eddie!mit-athena!tim
Bad Colorado.  No business.
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: GLB-TV
Date: 28 Jan 93 03:11:51 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article markw@meaddata.com (Mark Wasson) writes:
>My Tuesday night TV kind of jumped out at me in how prominent gays/gay
>issues were featured.  I expected it from the Maria Shriver special,
>(The Gay Nineties: Sex, Power and Influence), but the other shows did
>just as much.
>[...]

I seems that gay people have advanced from "unmentionables" to "fascinating
curiosities".  I guess this is an improvement.  It's now hip to overcome
outdated bigotries.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Foundations of Values
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 08:16:55 GMT


In article <18436@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen
Rowley) writes:

I wrote:

]>Quite
]>a large number of us have formed our notions of what is fit
]>and proper on a set of basically repressed and oppressive
]>models furnished for us by the majority society.  It's not
]>that all of that has to be rejected, but that we need to
]>have thought about, evaluated, and consciously chosen
]>ethical principles based on who and what we really are,
]>shunning especially the negative myths and stereotypes we
]>got from home, school, and the closet.

]As I am fond of saying "In an evolving universe, those who
]stand still are really moving backwards"

True as that may be, it's quite unresponsive to my point.
Perhaps you simply accepted my point without comment and
added this to it.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Gay soda! I'm so excited!
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:45:40 GMT

In article <1jljjdINN8td@morrow.stanford.edu> alpha@w6yx.Stanford.EDU (Alpha Schram) writes:
>Cold, STALE coffee is an abomination before God, Godess, Man and Woman.

Depends what you mean by 'stale'.  I'll drink a cup that's been forgotten
and that's reached room temperature.

>   ICED coffee, on the other hand, is a very pleasant beverage.  Try a 
>   Frappe sometime.  Yummmm!

Extreme Yummmm!

>   BTW, not surprised to see that those UK'ers find it odd to drink cold
>   coffee--they find it odd to drink ANY coffee.  I wouldn't call the
>   muddy instant stuff they serve over there coffee.  Nearly KILLED me,
>   ya tea swillin' Brits! ;-P

Not fair.  I drink good qualities of both.  Come and visit and I
promise you as much freshly-filtered Sumatran as you can drink.

				Kay

-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Problem Guests (was Re: FAX PRESIDENT CLINTON)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 13:41:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.224824.9032@midway.uchicago.edu>
jcav@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>(I'm sorry to be following up to the AAP-object here
>soc.motss.  I've directed followups to
>alt.politics.homosexuality)

Good move, but in this instance, I changed it back.

>In article <1993Jan26.200551.25160@wam.umd.edu>
>aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>>[not unfamiliar content]

>I don't know why I'm bothering with you, AAP, since I'm
>certain you only post here because of the pleasure you
>derive from baiting people.

Mr. Pinkas is an exemplar of the guest who will not leave when
the party ends, or of the person at the periphery of a
serious discussion who interjects a non sequitur.

When I was in high school (yes, we had indoor toilets and
electricity), the term "nerd" was highly negative, and in
general referred to that type of person.  Now, of course,
"nerd" is a state people aspire to, and the former meaning
wants for a convincing label.

But it's a free world (unless it isn't), which means he's
entitled.  As to why he does what he does, a number of models
suggest themselves.  I think he does it for very complicated
reasons.  They include: a desire to atttract scorn or foment
conflict as a way of reifying a persecution complex, a real
sense of injustice and social unfairness, a genuine interest
in homosexuality insofar as it relates to socially scorned
classes, and a desire to break through the boundaries of
what seems to have been a constricted past.  This is hardly
all bad.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: Re: Straight spouses on ABC's 20/20
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:31:09 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <C16G6A.7pn@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:
> John Dorrance (thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
>  
> > Another problem I had (and thanks to whoever it was that helped
> > me realize this (Hubbs? Gilly?)) with the report was that it
> > gave no explanation for why the queer spouse would 'do this to
> > someone'. It gave no reason (that I saw/remember) for him/her to
> > enter into the marriage, and made it seem as if they were perfectly
> > 'normal', then one day they turned on their spouses. Made their
> > coming out seem totally irrational and without reason. IMHO.
 
I was really surprised to find out that my ex-wife had no clue.
I thought I was transparent. Of course that was only after I stopped hiding
it from myself.

I suppose for most of the people who knew me as a stayt married man,
it did seem to come out of the blue.

> I think it's just that most straight folks can't understand what 
> it's like to come out, period.  The appearance of heterosexual
> fuctioning, as in kids and an ostensibly happy marriage just makes
> it harder to figure out.  And figure it out they must!

I wonder if they can ever understand the split that must exist in the 
individual. In my case I maintained a pretty firm barrier, effectively
masking my true desires and feelings. Looking back on it it's incredible
that I could hold such an improbable set of excuses together, but 
I suppose you could say I was motivated by the ultimate form of homophobia.

> One would think they could see how effective societal pressure and
> gay/lesbian invisibility are in causing some confused individuals
> like myself to enter into h*t*r*s*x**l marriage, but they can't.
> And further, they want those social conditions to remain the same,
> it seems.

I often wonder how many of them are struggling with it themselves.

LUX ./. owen

--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen, owen@autodesk.com
[ EU-PHORIA: A STATE OF WELL BEING ]
Euphoria is my natural state, I do what I enjoy and an abundance 
of all good fortune comes to me for it.
Newsgroups: soc.motss