From: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Subject: Re: Trinity (was Polytheism)
Reply-To: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems. Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:34:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.114630.12677@phillip.edu.au>, lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:

|>   You would be correct if you are saying that the Bible doesn't actually use
|> the word TRINITY as it doesn't. To say that the Bible doesn't teach the Trinity
|> however is wrong. Ok, it doesn't set aside any specific section explaining but
|> throughout the NT there is plenty of evidence to support this (without lots of
|> twists and turns.) 

My point was not about the word trinity, but the doctrine of trinity.  Of course
the word isn't in the Bible.  What I was contending is that the doctrine of
the trinity is not clearly taught in the Bible, without stretching 
certain interpretations which is what I think is required for the trinity
doctrine.

|> 
|>   What follows is a selection of verses, by no means complete as I am not a
|> walking concordance. It would be helpful if I knew your background
|> (JW,Mormon,Atheist etc) [and I wish everyone would declare this when posting!]
|> so I could address what I think you have problems with re the Trinity.
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't imagine what my personal background has to do with a factual, informed,
intelligent discussion about differences of opinion.  The only thing my
background will do is to allow you to make preconceived judgements that I
have some hidden agenda or am not being forthright, or what ever interpretations
you would make of my background.  You don't need my background to discuss
what is in the Bible.  But, since I have nothing to hide, I will tell you
my religious background.  That way, you can compartmentalize what is in my
head into what ever category you reserve for a person of such a background.

I grew up in a Baptist home, was baptized at the age of 14, and was very active
in a church.  At the age of 20, I questioned Christianity and withdrew my
involvement with any church.  During my adult life I have studied the Bible,
both from a religious interpretation and from secular points of view.  I
currently consider myself an agnostic who is unsure of the true nature of
God.  I am not a Christian.  I am somewhat knowledgable of the Bible, though
there is much I have forgotten over the years from not being a constant
scholar of the Bible.  I have no bones to pick with any one other than to
engage in intelligent discussions about the various doctrines different
Christian sects believe are in the Bible.  Which gets back to the original
discussion, which is my belief that based on my reading and study, the 
trinity is not taught in the Bible.


|> 
|>   Starting with the OT...     (All quotes NKJV)
|> 
|> 	Isa   9:6
|> 		For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the
|> 		government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be 
|> 		called Wonderful, Counsellor, Everlasting Father, Prince of
|> 		Peace.                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> 
|> 	Zech 12:10
|> 		And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of
|> 		Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will
|> 		look on me whom they have pierced.

I do not see a trinity here.  If you assume that these passages refer to 
Jesus (something Jewish scholars of the Old Testament would not agree with)
I still don't see a trinity.  I see the Zechariah quote as being a quote 
of Jesus (in the assumed context of prophecy).  The term "Everlasting Father"
takes some major twists and turns of reasoning to make it prove that Jesus
was the Father.  Still, where is the Holy Spirit?  No trinity here.


|>   In the NT ...   (again an incomplete list)
|> 
|> 	John 8:58
|> 		Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before 
|> 		Abraham was I AM."

If the translation is in fact correct and Jesus was making the declaration
that he was Jehovah (as the name I AM is supposed to imply) this still does
not constitute "trinity".


|> 	John 10:30
|> 		I and the Father are one

I and my wife are one.  "The twain shall become one flesh".  Symbolism.


|> 	John 10:33
|> 		The Jews answered Him saying, "For a good work we do not stone
|> 		You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, make
|> 		Yourself God.

Yes, Jesus made himself out to be God.  He was teaching polytheism.


|> 	John 10:38
|> 		The Father is in Me, and I in Him

God is supposedly in all Christians.  Does this make them God?


|> 	John 20:28-29
|> 		And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
|> 		Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have
|> 		believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have
|> 		believed."

Again, I did not argue that Jesus did not claim to be God.  Only that there
was no clear doctrine of trinity.  Who is the third member of the trinity
refered to in this passage?

|> 	Acts 20:28
|> 		"Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to the flock, among
|> 		which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the
|> 		church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
|> 
|> 	Col 2:9
|> 		For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;
|> 
|> 
|> 	Rom 9:5
|> 		... Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God.
|> 		Amen.

I submit that none of these verses indicates a clear doctrine of trinity
as it is presented in traditional Christian dogma.  Furthermore, the whole
question of trinity and what it means was a huge controversy in the early
church.  It was considered unclear enough that insertions were made 
into the Bible to promote the trinity where there was no such reference.
You know where to look for that one, don't you?  If there was a clear
teaching of trinity in the Bible, there would have been no need for such
insertions.  But the teaching is not clear.  You have to piece together 
dozens of verses written by different people over a long period of time
before you can get a basis for even arguing for the trinity.  Certainly,
the early Christians had no such beliefs.  I agree that the Bible
teaches Jesus as God.  The concept of the trinity is a problem, however.
I believe it was strung together to resolve Jesus being God with the
teaching of monotheism.




-- 

	Jim Burke	"Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!"
	Teknekron Software Systems		... burke@tss.com
  	phone:(415) 617-2432			... uunet!tekbspa!burke
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc