From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Followup-To: soc.women, soc.men
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:26:28 GMT

In article <21986@galaxy.ucr.edu> starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (aaron greenwood) writes:
>kt- Katie - kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>ms- Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu - writes:
>                                                                        
>ms- I am not surprised that there are women who hate men.  What
>ms- surprises me is *which* women hate men.  No, it isn't the
>ms- radical feminists or the lesbian separatists who make sweeping
>ms- and general anti-male statements, it's the heterosexual housewives
>ms- and the rather ordinary, run-of-the mill women who engage in
>ms- outrageous male-bashing.  And it's the men who behave in the
>ms- most disgustingly sexist manner who are confused and angered by
>ms- it.  Ironic, huh?                                                     
>
>kt- Why don't you tell us exactly what about Ms. Shore's *correct* observations
>kt- irked you so rather than fling this ad hominem comment at her?  
>kt- If she's wrong,
>kt- tell us *HOW* and *WHY* instead of writing this uncalled-for garbage.
>
>Correct?  You may think that most women hate or dislike men.  You are
>wrong, very very wrong.

It surprises me that you've inferred from both/either of these posts
that ms and/or kt are saying that most women hate or dislike men.
Where do either of them say this?

>Consider the quote from Jacsun Shah, a reporter from the Houston Chronicle
>one more time.
>
>>->   "Yes, I am a man hater, yes, I am a feminist. and why not?
>>->    Women are dying . They die every day, at the hands of men.
>>->    Men ... beat them, rape them, dismember them. Hell yes, I
>>->    hate men ... To all of you women out there, I say _hate_.
>>->    You have every right to ... I knew the kindest thing I could
>>->    do for the women of this world is to hate men with full force."
>
>Just a little refresh so we all know where this subject started. 
>It was posted without comment because of the it's imfamatory nature.

So you say.  I think it was posted to bash feminists.  "Oh, look, one
feminist hates men, therefore all feminists hate men."  That's _my_
spin on it.

>  Now, I disagree strongly with
>Ms. Shore's original post for a number of reasons. 
>
>She tries to dodge the fact that bashing men and things masculine is
>quite typical of feminists.  To imply in her article that radical
>feminists or the lesbian separatists do not make sweeping and general
>anti-masculine statements is untrue.  The do it all the time.  In the
>press, on TV, in books, anywhere they can.   An interesting future
>topic might be on how lesbian feminists view men and the impact of
>that bias on feminist thought and theory.  Does it distort reality?  

Whose reality?

I think you don't know many lesbians.  I hear many hetero women
complain about men in relationships because they're "stuck" with men
as sexual/romantic partners.  Some of the same kind of distaste I hear
from some men who basically and fundamentally dislike women but want
them as sexual partners.

Also, just because lesbians don't sleep with men doesn't mean that
lesbians don't love some men (friends, fathers, sons, brothers).

>Secondly Ms. Shore rather than comment on Ms. Shah's quote changes
>direction.  She would much rather deflect the conversation from feminist
>extremes to "hetrosexual housewives" and "ordinary, run of the mill
>women" who we should be suprised to find are the one's who engage "in
>the most outragous male bashing."

Perhaps Shore has heard more male bashing from run-of-the-mill hetero
women than lesbian separatists.  Shore chose to comment on the post
the way she wanted.  You have the same right to keep the convo from
"deflecting."

>I find the use of "hetorsexual housewives" and "ordinary run of the mill
>women" to be classest and sexest in the least and very anti-women.  In
>the context used they imply contempt.  

I don't see where they imply contempt.  Are lesbian separtists
run-of-the-mill? 

>I repeat my comments on Ms. Shah and her quote.

>To take a piece of garbage ( the person as well as her remarks ) and lionize
>her is to belittle both women and men. 

Who lionized her?  I hadn't heard of Shah until Scheaffer posted that
piece.  A well-known feminist?  A national figure?  Puh-leeze!

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