From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Subject: Re: On achcham, madam, naaNam and payirppu
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:08:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.224654.17627@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> raghu@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Raghu B) writes:
>In <9210092325.AA15850@cec1.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>quality  . That `madam' was considered as a feminine quality
>
>         A lot of stuff deleted........
>
>>indicates the primitiveness of the Sangam culture.
>
>> 4. payirppu : This word is not in usage and I don't know of
>>any  common  meaning  of  this  Tamil word. This word really
>>means `a state of uneasiness at the sight  or  hearing  any-
>>thing  offensive - abhorrent feelings'. We take this to mean
>>`delicacy' or `high chastity' or  `shrinking  from  what  is
>>mean or vile' as the fourth feminine quality.
>
>>                                         Thanks for reading,
>>                                          - Sundara Pandian.
>>                                     [  sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu ]
>	Has "payirppu" got anything to do with
>an excitement. In the sense, an excitement over hearing new things or 
>passing on a feel of excitement. Sharing news or spreading 
>news.  I find this quality in most of the modern women. May be.
>I hope I am not mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong.

   First, I like to point out that `excitement' is common to 
 both sexes. Not only the modern women, the modern men also get
 excited over hearing new things. ( I am assuming that by `modern'
 women, you are referring to women of this century. )
   Coming to your question, the answer is no. Payirppu doesn't 
 really mean a state of excitement. In the dictionary by V.Viswanadha
 Pillai that I consulted for my last article, the author gives the
 meanings delicacy, modesty , shrinking from what is mean or vile
 for the word `payirppu' as a feminine quality. I agree with the
 author in his meanings.

>
>	"Achcham" basically refers to indecisiveness. I doubt whether
>in olden days Women were given authority to take decisions. It refers
>to the lack of courageness or boldness to take decisions. No one
>could blame them because they were trained so by men.

  `Indecisivenes' is not one of the meanings of the word `achcham',
 though `fear', `dread',`thinness' are some of its meanings. Since
 I did not agree with the meaning `fear' as a feminine quality, I
 have chosen to take `gentleness' as the meaning of `achcham' as a
 feminine quality. I don't see how `indecisiveness' follows from the
 word `achcham'. However, the postings which gave `fear' as the
 meaning for `achcham' were not in error as `fear' is the common and
 direct meaning of `achcham'.

>
>	"Naanam" . Of course everyone knows that is "shyness".
>It could be to strangers or to elders.

   Did you read the movie song `naaNamO? innum naaNamO?' that I
 quoted in my last article? NaaNam or shyness is not just due to
 strangers or elders(?) , but mostly due to lover or thalaivan.
 (Puratchi) Thalaivar asks (puratchi) thalaivi in the `aayiraththil
 oruvan' song why she feels shy, not as a stranger or an elder but
 as a thalaivan to thalaivi. 


>It is basically out of respect
>or out of excitement.

  It could be due to love as well.

>
>	I can never completely agree calling "madami" as  complete
>"ignorance.".

  Think about it. The word `madamai' means `ignorance'. How is this
word derived ?
   madamai = madam + ai .
This meaning of `madamai' supports the meaning `ignorance' I gave in
my last article for `madam'.

> You can find from olden literature, that great kings
>consult their wife too before taking major decisions.

  Any reference to which ancient Tamil works ?

> They would
>consult each and every step they take on major political crisis.

  I don't agree with you. The queens did not play any role in major
political crisis. I suspect that your comment is based on Kalki's
novels like `Ponniyin selvan' in which book Chembiyan Maadevi,         
Kundavi play a role in political crisis. This book by Kalki is a 
fiction and not all he wrote could be taken as history. Moreover, 
Kalki has not written any book on Sangam culture. Thinking about,
I have not read any historical novel on Sangam culture. Unless you
give me some reference to any ancient Tamil work where women played
a role in major political crisis, I can't accept your claim.
  Now, I give some reference to the status of women in Sangam culture.
  In my last article, I quoted from `aaththichchoodi', an ancient
Tamil MORAL work [in Sangam period], which says,    
   "thaiyal sol kELEl." [ Don't listen to women. ]
  The much acclaimed Sangam work `ThirukkuRaL' has one chapter 
`peN vazhichchERal.' [ Being led by women.] In this chapter, which
 falls under the essentials of the state, ThiruvaLLuvar writes,
    "aRavinaiyum aanRa poruLum piRavinaiyum
     peNEval saivaarkaN il." [ kuRaL # 909 ]
 [ No virtuous deeds or wealth or joy reside,
   With those who by their wife's commands, abide.] 
    "manaivizhaivaar maaNpayan eydhaar vinaivizhaivaar
     vENdaap poruLum adhu." [ kuRaL  # 901 ]
 [ Who long for love of wife, achieve no noble gain ;
   Those on action bent, such things disdain. ]

>In most of the court hearings , the Queen sits next to king.

  This is true. I find this in `Silappathikaaram' for instance.

>And one can say that most of his decisions are influenced by
>her.
  
  How? The queen could be a silent witness too. If you read the
Madurai KaaNdam in `Silappathikaaram', you will find that the
queen does not do the talking when KaNNagi, a woman, complains
that an injustice has been committed to her. It is the king,
who does all the talking. He dies atonce, when he realises that
he has given a wrong verdict executing Kovalan. And the queen
dies also, seeing that her husband has passed away. I have not
read any Sangam work, where the queen has influenced the king's
jurisdiction or played a role in a political crisis. 
>
>	Expecting your comments on this.

 I have given my comments in this article. 
                                                     S.Pandian
                                              sp2@cec1.wustl.edu
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