HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Rec.food.veg's health warning.
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 23:21:40 GMT

[. . .]
Michael Traub writes:
>>In  an  attempt  to  keep  flaming  down  regarding  such individuals their
>>postings  would  simply  be  ignored  except for a small followup directing
>>gentle readers to the health warning.

Steve Dyer rudely replies:
>Well, if you stopped posting all together the problem would be
>solved rather neatly

Well, I initially had my doubts and reservations about Michael Traub's
suggestion to help obviate flaming, but after reading your rude and
inapproate response I am beginning to now think that Michael Traub's
suggestion has some real merit and should be seriously considered.

It is regretable that such a "prophylaxis" would be required, but
I guess the sincere and inquiring reader deserves better than this
kind of pointless posting of rude and mean-spirited remarks that you
have here lapsed into making.
                                          
                                       ted
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:19:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug21.011914.12481
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug20.162919.1@vms.ocom.okstate.edu> churchwell@vms.ocom.okstate.edu (Kimberly B. Churchwell) writes:
>> ...There's no such thing as "impacted feces".
>
>You'd get an argument on that from any geriatrics nurse.  (Nope, I'm not
>a nurse, just a former nursing student.)  "Fecal impaction" is a common
>condition in elderly patients who consume low-fiber diets and get little
>or no exercise.

If you noticed my first posting, you'll note that my comment was
qualified.  This is exactly the situation where you see a condition
similar to the phrase.  It directly results from a decrease in intestinal
motility associated with aging, low physical activity, along with a low
fiber diet.  Quite a typical set of conditions found in most nursing homes.
It is very rare in anyone else.

However, these unfortunate eldely people are most definitely _not_ the
adults who are pushing colonic cleansing regimens, who point to a diffuse
syndrome of malaise due to imaginary "impacted feces", and improvement
in health after such a cleansing therapy.  The condition which results
in elderly individuals comes from the mechanical obstruction produced
by the feces, and even when this is addressed, by the straining which
results from chronic constipation.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: altar@fraser.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Rich & Michael
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:11:59 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:

>> 
>> I think Aldous Huxley was correct when he said of fanaticism:
>>  
>>      "Defined in psychological terms, a fanatic is a man who
>>      consciously over-compensates a secret doubt"
>>           (from Vulgarity in Literature, chp. 4)
>>      
>> Well, the over-zealous declaration of Faith and the belligerent
>> vegetarian bashing by our inveterate hunter above is indeed
>> displaying this very over-compensation.  Note the admittedly
>> unrestrained compulsion to boast of his inconsistency of being a
>> pet owner and hunter, and, to taunt the peaceful vegetarians on
>> this conference with his gloating about his own meat-eating.
>>  

>Hey Charles, I think you're right. He thinks you're Satan. :-)

I wish people would be less impulsive in their reading habits and
imputations of motives/thoughts/etc. to others. 

NO, I don't think he is Satan.  Our poster is most likely
a very decent and reasonable fellow, but with respect
to the topic of vegetarianism and how the case for its advantages
have been rationally presented I am afraid that our omnivorous friend
was not as fair-minded and rational in his posting as I am sure is
his usual style.  Instead of discursive arguementation and factual
information all we received was a philippic against Michael Traub,
derisively dismissing him as a "fanatic".   Are these the kinds of
rude and insulting remarks and personal attacks that you would
support?
 

>Of all the groups I routinely thumb through from time to time, this has
>got to be worst when it comes to putting people down and being totally
>intolarant of any point of view other than their own. 

Then help us raise the level of debate by refraining from such unfair
generalizations and unsubstantiated criticisms.  A first step towards
tolerance is to try to first properly understand what others are
really saying.   Now, re-read what I posted and you will see that I do 
not think that our friend is "Satan".  I do think, however, that he like 
yourself has momentarily lapsed into doing the very thing that you
both would criticize in others.

                                           ted
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: Re: I love red meat! I love sugar!
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:05:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.164113.21981@csrd.uiuc.edu> saarinen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sirpa Saarinen) writes:
>Is it so that every meal might contribute to the fat in the arteries and 
>do also *slim* people have this problem? I.e. can you be slim *and* get 
>clogged arteries? I have often thought about this, since people around me 
>(in my office) eat hamburgers and junk food and still stay slim. Do their 
>arteries also clog or not? Or is it a very long term thing?

Absolutely! You can be slim as anything and still die from heart disease.
Saying that you can also be just fine, it depends on your genes as well as
your diet.

I saw a program on TV last night about an actress from an Australian TV
soap called 'Neighbours'. She had had a quadruple bypass operation
while still quite young, and needed another operation less than ten
years later. She admitted her diet was high in fats. She also used to
smoke forty cigarettes a day which couldn't have helped.


-- 
Michael Traub
From: heather@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Heather Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: butter vs. margarine
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:56:21 GMT
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland

jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

{relevant stuff deleted}

>Bizarre NZ marge story: when the stuff was first introduced there (in the
>early 70s) the dairy industry lobbied for a law that would require it to
>be dyed blue.  They settled for a pricing floor that made it more expensive
>than butter.

This isn't so bizarre!  When Newfoundland became Canada's tenth
province in 1949, included in the terms of union was a law
allowing coloured margarine to be sold in the province.  At that
time, only uncoloured margarine could be sold in Canada, with a
packet of colouring that could be squished into the margarine before
the package was opened.  I don't know, however, when
Newfoundland's law became standard for the rest of the country. 


|      /^\       | Heather Taylor   |   "This is the sort of English          |
|/\/\/ o o \/\/\ | 70A Bond St.     |    up with which I will not put"        |
| __/\ \_/ /\__  | St. John's, NF   +-----------------------------------------|
|  __/ \_/ \__   |  heather@____.cs.mun.ca (where ____ = pooky,odie,garfield) |
-- 
|      /^\       | Heather Taylor   |   "This is the sort of English          |
|/\/\/ o o \/\/\ | 70A Bond St.     |    up with which I will not put"        |
| __/\ \_/ /\__  | St. John's, NF   +-----------------------------------------|
|  __/ \_/ \__   |  heather@____.cs.mun.ca (where ____ = pooky,odie,garfield) |
From: mdk@michael.udev.cdc.com (Mike D. Kail)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Ideas for a persuasive speech on vegetarianism
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:14:16 GMT
Reply-To: mdk@michael.udev.cdc.com (Mike D. Kail)
Organization: Control Data Systems

I am currently taking a basic Speech Communication course
at night and have to give a persuasive speech.  I am thinking
about doing it on the benefits of vegetarianism, but am having
a hard time coming up with a main focal point.  I would greatly
appreciate any ideas that you may have.  You can e-mail 
suggestions to me (mdk@udev.cdc.com) or post them if you wish.

Thanks in advance,

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mike D. Kail                          mdk@udev.cdc.com        |
| Control Data Systems, Inc.                                    | 
| 4201 North Lexington Avenue           (612) 482-2942 (W)      |
| Arden Hills, MN  55126                (612) 781-9880 (H)      |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Fast or slow, no matter what the pace, I know I can win."    |
|  - Morceli                                                    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jehlgg@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Joyce E Hartley)
Subject: Re: High fat = low sex drive
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:20:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.163245.129@news.Hawaii.Edu> bill@gaza.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (William J. King) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.003610.9997@news.eng.convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L. Johnson) writes:
>>
>>High fat = low sex drive
>>
>>"A study at the University of Utah Medical Center found that testosterone
>>(sex hormone) levels in men fell by 30 percent within four hours of their
>>eating a high-fat (57%) meal, whereas hormone levels stayed the same for
>>men who had consumed a low-fat (2%) meal.
>
>
>	And what of the women? 
>
>	


Umm, if I remember correctly from one of my bio classes, estrogen is present
in both men and women, and it is the hormone that controls sex drive.
Someone may want to check this out.
					Joyce
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: burger@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Schlossberg)
Subject: Re: High fat = low sex drive
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 17:18:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.162042.8416@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> jehlgg@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Joyce E Hartley) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.163245.129@news.Hawaii.Edu> bill@gaza.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (William J. King) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul30.003610.9997@news.eng.convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L. Johnson) writes:
>>>
>>>High fat = low sex drive
>>>
>>>"A study at the University of Utah Medical Center found that testosterone
>>>(sex hormone) levels in men fell by 30 percent within four hours of their
>>>eating a high-fat (57%) meal, whereas hormone levels stayed the same for
>>>men who had consumed a low-fat (2%) meal.
>>
>>
>>	And what of the women? 
>>
>>	
>
>
>Umm, if I remember correctly from one of my bio classes, estrogen is present
>in both men and women, and it is the hormone that controls sex drive.
>Someone may want to check this out.
>					Joyce

If I remember MY bio classes correctly, (and I should because it was 4 months
ago), in a woman's body, fat tissue converts testosterone to estrogen.  That's 
why women with really low fat levels like gymnasts, etc. don't menstruate. 
Still, I'm not sure if this would have anything to do with men.  (that is if
men's fat tissue does the same thing).  Anyone know?

BTW, what does this have to do with veggieness?  Just wondering,

Scott




-- 
Scott Schlossberg takes his leave of you. | Selection committee still 
Drop a line at burger@leland.stanford.edu | attempting to chose quote.
The Texas Rangers will dethrone the Twins!| Stay tuned for further
The New York Giants will be back in 1992!!| updates...Scott
From: dsouza@hplred.HP.COM (Roy D'Souza)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:06:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Nutritional information
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg




	>cansoori@athena.mit.edu (Christina Ansoorian) / 12:38 am  Aug 12, /
	>him: more fruits and veggies, esp. avocados
	>me: don't you know that avocados are absolutely loaded with fat?
							     ^^^^
Avocados, like other vegan sources of nutrition contain fatty acids - not fat.
                     ^^^^^                                                ^^^
An avocado is a fruit - it does not have fat (or muscles or bones..etc..)
Furthermore, since avocados are good sources of other nutrients, it may not
be good advice to tell people to avoid avocados.

Roy
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Wool Machines
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:29:29 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) wrote:
> cindy@meshugge.media.mit.edu (Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes:
>> Anyone have advice on what other kind of clothing to wear which *is*
>> cruelty-free and which provides the warmth of wool?
> Well I wouldn't exactly call England warm but I suppose you could live
> somewhere colder (is that possible ?-). I find cotton a more than
> adequate substitute, occasionally I buy synthetics for jumpers.

Boston is a LOT colder than anywhere in the UK in winter, but the synthetic
fleece jackets made by firms like Berghaus and Helly-Hansen should cope OK.
They are more windproof than wool.  Their only drawback is that they need
rather careful treatment: read the washing instructions.

Oe other consideration: if you've got something made of wool already, look
after it.  Throwing it away won't help a sheep or the ecosystem any, and a
woollen sweater can easily last for decades.


-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jefft@athena.mit.edu (Jeff Tang)
Subject: Re: Are there any reasonably priced cruelty free products???
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
	<1992Aug13.164152.16599@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:59:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.164152.16599@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (james.w.lacey) writes:

   BTW, who is Dr. Bronner ?  What is this all-in-one religious stuff
   on the package of his soap ?  If anyone on the net know, please
   post the info, I am sure that many other people have wondered.

   -- 
	Jim Lacey  --  my own opinions    
	email:  att!cbnewsl!jlacey  or  jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
	D'ou venons-nous? Que sommes-nous? Ou allons-nous?

BTW, what *is* castille soap?  And how many of the zillions of uses on the
bottles are practical.  And does anyone actually use the bubble gum soap?

--
Jeff Tang
jefft@athena.mit.edu
From: gaumondp@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Gaumond Pierre)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Fasting (was vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes)
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:11:11 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1992Aug19.234212.17682@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <anne.714256021@menaik> anne@cs.UAlberta.CA (Anne J.R. Nield) writes:
>>>The colon cleans itself out daily.  "Hardened feces" might be a problem
>>>in cases of severe constipation sufficient to cause bowel obstruction
>>>(needless to say, this is extremely rare).  There aren't any feces left
>>>(let alone "hardened" ones) after an evacuation.
>>You might not believe this until you've experienced it.  It is truly
>>amazing what can emerge from one's body after several days of virtual

What do you call VIRTUAL fasting. How long did you fast.

>>fasting.  I won't gross the entire net out with the details....
>
>It's OK; I saw _Alien_.  I've also fasted enough in my life to know

Same question to you. How long do you usually wait between two fasts.

>what effect it has on my bowel movements, which is essentially to
>radically reduce them.  On the other hand, I wasn't taking herbal

[stuff deleted]

-- 
Pierre Gaumond.        gaumondp@ERE.UMontreal.CA
Services Informatiques, Universite de Montreal. 
C.P. 6128, Succursale "A", Montreal,            
Quebec, Canada.   H3C 3J7
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:16:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug20.171651.23638
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug20.080755.23350@btcs.bt.co.uk> traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>Your gut is already populated with its own ecosystem.
>>There's not much you can do about that.
>
>References?

This is like asking for "references" that the world isn't flat.
There are thousands of published scientific papers on the
bacterial flora and fauna of the gut.  I suggest that you
check a few of these out, if you're truly intersted (which I doubt
you are.)  Or perhaps take a look at a book on gastroenterology
which will have "digested" many of these.

>>Definitely transient.  Eating yogurt or taking acidophilus changes
>>the bowel flora somewhat--only slightly--but for only as long as
>>you keep ingesting it.
>
>References?

See above.  There have been many studies looking at the effects
of diet on the fecal bacteria population.  Eating yogurt or taking
live acidophilus supplements has a definite, but transient effect.
That is, if you want to sustain anything other than their ordinary
levels in the gut, you have to keep taking them.  The population of
the gut is far more varied and persistent than you imagine.

>>If it's enhancing your health, it's because it's an expensive placebo.
>What proof do you have for this statement?

>Can you explain where the faulty thinking exists?

I did in a later article.  This is a remedy for a diease which
doesn't exist.  There's no such thing as "impacted feces".

>"Flaming" is when someone makes a bunch of accusations or statements
>with little facts to back them up other than their say so. I have
>noticed you make such accusations on a number of previous occasions.
>Then as now you have not provided any evidence to back you up.

The only assertions I ever make are those which are commonly accepted
by reputable scientific research.  I know that won't count for much in
some people's eyes.  So be it.

>It seems obvious to me you know very little about colon cleansing, and
>you obviously haven't tried it yourself. Maybe you should go away
>and try it before knocking it. I shall end by making a statement
>as rude as one of your own:

It helps to know a bit about the colon before trying to pontificate
on "cleaning" it.

>You seem to be yet another meat-eating interloper like Rich Young
>who has decided to "save the world" by cleansing vegetarians/vegans
>of their "uninformed" ideas.

Oh, my, not that.  Well, Traub, unlike you, I don't resort to
name calling when I am confronted with facts I do not want to hear.

An unhealthy attention to the "health" of one's colon, and a
desire to "clean" it, is hardly a mark of a vegan or a vegetarian.
Please don't tar folks with such a statement.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: young@serum.kodak.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Rainforests and McDonalds
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:15:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: pixel.1992Aug19.121514.16012
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Originator: young@sasquatch

In article <altar.714171876@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:

[...]

>Rich Young replies:
>>	It points out the fact that there are flaws in Rifkin's arguments,
>>	and it re-affirms the fact that, for the U.S. at least, it is a
>>	tiny, and [especially] diminishing, concern.
>
>Yes, and what's the flaw?

	This is one of the more inane responses I've seen here.  It has
	gone beyond informational to desperately defensive and therefore
	more annoying than useful.  The question has been asked and answered.

[...]

>>	The source of the review is documented, talk to THEM if you think
>>	that the review is "glib".  The editorial address is:
>
>What's the matter, can't you do your own homework.

	__I__ have no need to talk to the reviewers, since I have no problem
	with the review.  Since you seem to, I have suggested that you
	contact the publication personally.  After all, you wouldn't
	volunteer to contact John Robbins because I have a problem with
	his presentation of data regarding iron in foods, now would you?
	Same thing.

	This "discussion", or at least my part in it, is ended.

[...]

-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
From: ddl683@csc.albany.edu (Dreaming)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:13:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: coco2.ddl683-210892122226
Followup-To: rec.food.veg
Organization: Hall of Holy Holdsworth, Albany, NY

In article <1992Aug20.051110.26880@wam.umd.edu>, sorsha@wam.umd.edu (Laurie
Beth Brunner) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Aug19.234212.17682@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> >
> >Ignorance is bliss; 'tis folly to be wise.
> >
>   The actual quote is "WHere ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
>   Anal-retentive (ha!), I know, but I have to do SOMETHING with my
>   lit major. :)

Thomas Gray; now, a bonus question:  which poem was it?
And for double points, which poem of his generated the equally-famous
aphorism, "Not all that glitters [orig. glisters] is gold"?

And now back to your regularly scheduled flamebait.

> The Giver Goddess

						Derek L.
--
not an english major, but read the entire Norton anthology
ddl683@csc.albany.edu
Organization: Senior, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:38:53 -0400 
From: "David F. McWade" <dm3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: the term "vegetarian"


therese@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:

>Hi, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth to the discussion about aspiring
>vegetarians reading this group and being turned off by rabid veggies here.
>I wasn't a vegetarian when I started reading this group, either, and like
>many out there now couldn't understand what the big deal was about referring
>to myself as a vegetarian even though I occasionally (once or twice a month)
>ate meat.  But now that I am a vegetarian, I DO see the point - it's really
>frustrating to tell someone you're a vegetarian and have them assume that
>you eat meat (chicken or fish).  It's really frustrating to go to a restaurant
>and ask for vegetarian options and have the waitress point out chicken and
>fish dishes to you.  It's *really* frustrating to have someone like your
>mother-in-law tell you a friend of her's is a vegetarian, only *she* eats
>chicken and turkey and fish (with the implication that you are >unreasonable
>to call yourself a vegetarian and not eat those things).  This happened to
>me last weekend.  The problem with referring to yourself as a vegetarian
>but still eating meat, however occasionally, is that people who know this
>will think *all* people who refer to themselves as vegetarian do this, and
>many of us don't!

>Basically, what I'm trying to say is that things look different depending
>on which side of the fence you're on.  When you jump over the fence and
>become a vegetarian, maybe you'll see our side more clearly.

>Therese

I recently e-mailed the person who puts together the vegetarian FAQ
about including such pseudo-terms as "semi-vegetarian",
"pesco-vegetarian", etc.  I found those terms offensive basically
because use of such terms perpetuates the situation you describe above. 
Unfortunately, the FAQ-maker (I forget his name) refused to remove the
terms on my suggestion (my argument wasn't as coherently stated as yours
is, however).  

I would, therefore, like to publicly suggest that those terms be removed
from the vegetarian FAQ, please.  Perhaps we can have some debate on
this.  (Is the person who makes the FAQ a vegetarian?)

David McWade
dm3o@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg