HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bri@panix.com (Brian Shanblatt)
Subject: Synagogue MUSIC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:38:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

 I have noticed an interesting trend in jewish sacred music.
It seems that Orthodox shuls are far less likely to hire
professional , year-round chazzanim ("cantors") than shuls in
the Conservative and Reform communities.  There are of course
numerous explanations.  Orthodox shuls are more likely
to have congregants who are able to daven with more or less accuracy,
and are therefore not in need of a professional.
The problem is that accurate nusah, to say nothing of
graceful treatment of the nusah, to say nothing of 
original innovation in nusah, may be slowly eroding from Orthodox
communities at large.
	Certainly, hazzanim like Joseph Maolvany, Moshe stern, and selected
others are examples of highly trained and skilled S.T.'s (Shlichei Tzibur).
I think, however, that these men are exceptions and their shuls, mostly in larger cities are exceptional in the Orthodox communities in america.
	I have been in many Orthodox shuls where the S.T. uses the correct
Nusah outline (i.e. L'chu N'rannana sounds like it should on friday eve)
but many of the nusah details are missing - traditional shifts from
major to minor, from one mode to another, at selected phrases,etc.  
Additionally, I have noticed a trend toward "generic" melodies.
These melodies that one may hear for "Shir HaMaalot (benching)"
as well as in the Hallel, as well as in pitutim in the High Holyday
services.  Although I suppose one could argue that "tune sharing" has
a certain charm, I believe that tunes should be used for the
text for which they were written, and then only for texts for which
it is approriate to be singing a tune.  Folk tunes for which there
is no specific text (at least in our collective musical memories)
should be applied to liturgical texts with great caution.
	This is really a shame because at one time, great cantorial
music was an intregal part of traditional, Orthodox Judaism.  
Professionals, with trained voices, were not as hard to finf in
Orthodox communities.  At this time, the true guardians of
traditonal nusah are the Conservative and Reform cantorial organizations.
Training at those schools is comprehensive, and trains students
for performance, as well as researches, scholars and composers.  
Although the Reform liturgy differs substantially from traditional
prayer structure, the musical training uses such tradtitional
music texts such as Baer, Alter, etc.  The Orthodox training school,
while offering some fine performers/teachers like Joseph Maolovany
is more of a "we sing it, you repeat it" trade school. The majority
of the students (yes, there are exceptions) become daveners
of competence, but are not taught the analysis of the nusah that
makes one a master and innovator.
	I would be interesting to hear opinions and experiences 
of/about the "cantorial state" of your shul!

e-mail, posts, flames welcomed and encouraged!
-- 
bri@panix.com
"How to learn how to sing, Rule #1: There is always tomorrow..."
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Entertaining suggestions for responses to "Merry Christmas"
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:46:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: People's Front of Judea

In article <1992Dec17.021424.12557@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>
>>I would welcome such a wish.  My own attitude about wishing everyone a Merry 
>>Christmas is that the love and warmth Christians especially associate with
>>it is for everyone, without condition.
>
>Unfortunately, for many Jews, Chrismas and Easter are associated with
>the remembrance that both were especially popular times for pogroms,
>which makes it difficult to associate them with love and warmth.

I friend of mine was once with a group of non-Jewish friends.
They started talking about how their families traditionally
celebrated Easter in their respective Old Countries. One of them
(who didn't realize my friend was Jewish) asked him how his
family celebrated Easter. He said, "Traditionally, we celebrated
it by hiding in the basement until it was over."
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"SILENCE = QUIET"
                --Girljock Magazine
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Chanukah Live!
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-29448]: bourbon
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:29:10 GMT

On Sunday, December 20th, the worldwide celebration of Chanukah,
featuring live public menorah lightings in NY, Moscow, Hong Kong,
Washington, DC, Londo, Paris, Jerusalem, etc. will be broadcast by PBS
stations. (Starting time 3 PM EST).

Check your local listings.

David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Chinese Food
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:03:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Elie Rosenfeld asks how one can make Chinese food without pork or
shellfish.

There's a growing movement toward vegetarianism both here and in
Taiwan. As a consequence, a brilliant Taiwanese chef opened a
vegetarian restaurant there. Several imitators (or even students of
his) have now opened similar restaurants here in Los Angeles (dunno
about elsewhere).

These restaurants have the singular redeeming virtue that in addition
to serving the vast range of true vegetarian Chinese dishes, they
also serve all the standard dishes, using Tofu and wheat flour
and other pareve (though they may not know it) substances to
create imitations of chicken, pork, fish, etc.

In at least one case (in the new San Gabriel Chinese Mall--a
modern, spotlessly clean, massive undertaking with many fine
restaurants and stores--) there's a restaurant where the imitations
are brilliantly done and near-indistinguishable from the real thing.
At last, Jews can eat "Sweet and Sour Pork" with a clear conscience
and enjoy it. (I ate pork until about 35 years ago, so I can
testify to the flavor.) The "chicken" dishes are outstanding.

There's another more well-known place called "The Fragrant Vegetable"
on Wilshire just west of Westwood, but to my taste their imitiations
are very unconvincing.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin)
Subject: Re: Messiah Jesus: Daniel 9 follow up
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:49:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.013718.26540@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:
>In article <9212161542.AA21822@po.CWRU.Edu> <<ejd3@po.cwru.edu>> writes:
>>
>>The messiah will come when the Jewish people
>>observe the laws.  By dissuading this, you
>>are unwittingly(?) delaying the messiah's
>>comming.
>
>Really? I heard that the Messiah will come when Israel is
>completely righteous or completely wicked.
>
>I'm working on it from *my* side... it's you righteous people
>who're slowing things up.

Is this a joke? I just did not understand this reading it the first time
around.


>-- 
>Andrew Solovay    
>
>"SILENCE = QUIET"
>                --Girljock Magazine

Thanks,
Dima
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: Messiah Jesus: Miracles in the Talmud
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:46:05 GMT

Okay, putz, I'll play.  Just for the fun if it.

In article <1992Dec14.194920.4495@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
>
>A number of you asked to see the references to Jesus miracles outside 
>the New Testament.

How many of "us" asked?  A great multitude?

>Josephus: Antiquities 18.3.3

Now go back and check Josephus.  Did he write that Jesus performed
miracles, or that some people _said_ Jesus performed miracles.  There's
a difference, you know.


>
>
>In the Talmud they accused him of sorcery:
>
>San 43a: Yeshu has practised sorcery
>San 107b: Jesus the Nazarene practised magic (also Sotah 47a)
>AZ 27b: Discussion on Christian healings

AHA!  You quote Talmud.  It is pretty clear from your quotations
that you understand absolutely nothing about rabbinic aggada.  I
assume your references were from Herford's _Christianity in Talmud
and Midrash_.

But, since you are willing to accept the Talmud as authoritative,
you will also accept that talmudic description of him as "min
ha-shotim" (b. Shabb. 104b) and a "mamzer" etc.  So, by your
standards, you pray to a MAMZER SHOTEH?  (Again, this is true
only if one accepts aggada literally, as you seem to.)

>Also there are a lot of hidden references to Jesus

Know why they were hidden, turkey?

>Shab 104b: Did not Ben Stada [i.e. Jesus] bring forth witchcraft ...?

How about quoting the rest of the text -- the part that refers to
Jesus as a shoteh, and is father as a "bo'el" and his mother
as "statat da m'ba'ala" (an unfahthful wife).

All I can say is that if you accept Talmudic aggadta as authoritative,
you pray to a shoteh mamzer!  

>I wont insult the readers intelligence by asking you to accept the 
>identity of Ben Stada, Ben Pandera, Balaam and many others as Jesus
>but I dont think that you can doubt YESHU and JESUS THE NAZARENE.
>
>Question for the idiot Orthodox:
>
>Are the following miracles or sorcery?

Here's one idiot Orthodox answer: they're silly legends!

>Healing the sick, opening the eyes of the blind, creating food
>out of thin air, walking on water, raising the dead, getting up 
>from the grave etc.

Bye Bye Vijay.  Go back to worshipping your shoteh mamzer by yourself;
we're not interested.  Incidentally, most informed Christians -- 
Herford included -- understood aggada and Talmud.  No one ever accused
_them_ of worshipping a shoteh mamzer.


-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Subject: Re: The Jewish nose myth
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: UiO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:26:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.062511.7371@sarah.albany.edu>, mark@fenris.albany.edu
(Mark Steinberger) wrote:
> 
> In article <Dec11.231930.43105@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> mk568652@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Mitchell Kotler) writes:
> >Can anyone explain how this myth got started ?
> 
> Go watch a Groucho Marx movie and then we'll talk.
> 
> --Mark
> 
> P.S. Anyone care to comment on the myth that blond hair is common in
> Norway?

Well, I'm 15/16th Norwegian (one of my great-grandfathers came from
Denmark), and I'm dark blond... :-)

But seriously... Blond hair _is_ common in Norway, but there are lots and
lots of dark-haired Norwegians, and of course redheads as well. Concerning
blond hair, it's interesting to note that a lot of us (like me) are not
blond in the _flaxen-haired_ sense, but have quite dark, but shiny hair
(kind of goldenish brown? call it what you like).

The women are, generally, fairer. There are quite a lot of flaxen-haired
maidens here.

Some districts have the reputation for producing more "darkies" than
others, but usually that's just conjecture, or even dated, racialist
claptrap.

The percentage of blondes   is   large in Scandinavia, but nevertheless -
the population is thoroughly "mixed" here as well...

Yours,
PC Jorgensen
------------
grad. student,
Institute of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo, Norway
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Haftorah Reading May 21, 1994
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:14:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.192320.12240@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

# >> Our synagogue has set the date of the next adult Bat Mitzvahs
# >> on May 21, 1994.  Does anyone know what the haftorah reading will
# >> be that day?

# >It's Sidrah Naso (my Bar Mitzvah Sidrah) and the Haftorah is from
# >Judges Chapter 13 Verses 2-25 (all about the birth of Samson).
 
# Thanks for the info.
 
	Make sure it is not Rosh Hodesh (or Machar haHodesh, or whatever).

# >BTW, what's an adult Bar Mitzvah?
 
# It's a Bat Mitzvah, and it's for those women who did not have a
# formal ceremony when they were 12 or 13.  In many cases, these
# women did not have a formal Hebrew education as children, and
# since the Conservative Movement generally requires formal Jewish
# education in order to have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah ceremony, it takes about
# 2-3 years of monthly classes for the women to be ready for
# their Bat Mitzvah.
 
	Nonsense.  A women is automatically Bat Mitzva at the age of 12.
A man is automatically Bar Mitzva at the age of 13;.  No ceremony is
required, and neither is any amount of education to be Bar/bat Mitzva
(although education is required for other reasons).

# My wife was in the class that was Bat Mitzvah around 3 years ago.
# It involved learning how to read Hebrew, as well as Jewish history,
# holidays, and laws.

	These are good things to learn.  I hope the learning is continuous
(at whatever level is possible) and does not stop just because of a
ceremony.

# Also, as ours is a Conservative-egalitarian congregation, the women
# have also been encouraged to learn to read Torah, the Haftorahs,
# and to conduct services.

	How does your Conservative-egalitarian congregation handle the
issue of men getting pregnant?



	If you are wondering, this article is partly serious, and partly
an attempt to see what kind of a flame war I can start.  I am not
going to tell you which is which.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest 
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:35:34 GMT

In <1992Dec18.151538.16777@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

>   You did not get a sense of joy, comfort or inclusion from
>   the nods in direction of Judaism made by your family, which,
>   if you will permit me, didn't really believe in what they
>   were doing and in what they wanted you to do. Is that an indictment of
>   Judaism qua Judaism or more a reflection on your family?

>   Now, I realise that this was only the starting point, that
>   which lead you to the serious thought that brought you to your present
>   point of view. May I suggest another starting point, one which is
>   symmetric? There are many, many people, men and women, highly
>   educated and participating fully in the larger community who,
>   by choice, follow the Jewish tradition. These people, apparently,
>   are not dissatisfied by the relation of theory to practice. 
>   I think that this fact also leads to serious thought no less than
>   your growing up experience did.

Now this is what I call a good post!  No insults.  No "you ignorant
Jew! let me teach you how to be a Jew" holier-than-thou. Just a
respectful expression of a deeply felt opinion.  Take note all posters.

My comment is that those who suffer hypocrisy  in childhood are much
less likely to take for granted things that those who have had a
comfortable upbringing.  This was on of the more serious comments of
Somerset Maugham (of Human Bondage fame) and has been my personal observation.

Many Jews who have been brought up in the comfort of observant Judaism
all of their lives seem to have no idea what it is like to have the
questions triggered early in life, and why it is so difficult afterwards
to accept the "nice" format of Judaism (the ones that most people known
by the child don't practice).  After all, the argument of Xtians is that
all of the slaughter of Jews was not done by real Xtians.  The logic
is the same.  There is a perfect way to observe Judaism, but most people
that you have seen in your life don't observe it, including in the Bible.


--
Eli Chiprout                 
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca
From: victor@watson.ibm.com (Victor Miller)
Subject: Re: Jewish Joke of the Day
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:02:31 GMT
Reply-To: victor@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM, T.J. Watson Research Center

Maybe this really happened to Harold Gould, but I distinctly remember
my father telling me the identical story (as a joke) about 40 years
ago.
--
		Victor S. Miller
		Bitnet: VICTOR at WATSON
		Internet: victor@watson.ibm.com
		IBM, TJ Watson Research Center
		"Great artists steal; lesser artists borrow" Igor Stravinsky
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Re: Jews, Cincinatti, and the KKK
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:19:49 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-3523]: bourbon

In article <1992Dec14.011630.16397@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>There's a difference between the US and Canada in that in the US there
>is supposed to be a separation of Church and State.  (I know, tell
>that to the Supreme Court!)  Using public property for religious
>displays, be they creches, menorahs, crosses, etc, is clearly
>unconstitutional (and one day the Supreme Court will take its
>Christian blinders off and realize it).
>
Not just the Supreme Court, but almost every federal court has
approved the public menorah lightings. The first amendment, contrary
to popular myth, prohibits only the establishment of religion, not the
expression of it.

One wonders: since according to the Constitution, the Supreme Court
decides the interpretation of the Constitution, how can a Supreme
Court decision be unconstitutional?

>The Lubavitch, by putting their fershtunkiner menorahs up on public
>property all over, helps destroy the case of the rational Jewish
>community and paves the way for the KKK.
>
Leaving aside the non-sequitur of the argument, one again wonders
about the necessity for ad hominem arguments and the illogic that
excludes a different reasoning or set of axioms from the rational. On
what basis does one assume opposition to x is the case of the
"rational Y community"? Opposition to x simply represents the position
of y. It is not necessarily rational, nor the case of a community.

-- 
>Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org


David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Synagogue MUSIC
Originator: schwartz@baba
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:55:57 GMT


I've noticed a disturbing trend in Orthodox shuls to hire chazzanim who
serve as Shabbat/Yom Tov shlichei tzibbur.  The ostensible reason is
that the melodious output beautifies the service.  Often, the reason is
that 3 - 4 congregants of standing in the community know how to davven,
but sing like Roseanne Arnold; having a designated Shabbat chazzan
avoids having the gabbaim repeatedly invite Mr. Greenberg, but not Mr.
Sentro, to davven Shacharit for the congregation.

I have nothing against musically beautiful davvening.  However, for me,
establishing a chazzan to davven what many worshippers are capable of
(unlike R"H/Y"K) institutionalizes the davvening to a degree that I find
distasteful.  It feels too much like the "rabbi praying for the
congregation" scenario.

How do others feel?
-- 
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Arens, unable to defend his honor?
Date: 20 Dec 92 09:42:51 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

Is it color-war time already?  I thought that wasn't until the last
week of summer camp.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          "If there really was a Jewish conspiracy to run the
 |__/__/_/        world, my rabbi would have let me in on it by now.
 |warren@         I contribute enough to the shule."
/ nysernet.org 			    Saul Goodman
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923)
Subject: Re: To all Jews: STOP the negative Jewish stereotypes
Organization: NetCom -- OnLine Communication Services
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:22:53 GMT

In article <Dec15.010428.43277@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> mk568652@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Mitchell Kotler) writes:
>******************************************************************
>I RECENTLY HAD A "CONVERSATION" WITH MADDI HAUSMANN
>TELL ME   WHAT  YOU  THINK OF THIS MESS.
>It all started when I posted if there was any significance to the Jewish nose
>myth.  Her answer:  something about the air being free.  This is a Jew talking , folks.
>HERE WE GO....................
>***********************************************************************

[Long, boring post deleted for sanity's sake]

First of all, Madi's answer was *not* that "air was free" -- someone
else posted that answer. Madi, however, responded with a terse and
pithy "'Snot". Getcher fax trait.

Then you asked Madi for, maybe, a Holocaust joke. Well, here's something
close. 

Q: How do the members of Kibbutz Lochamei HaGhettaot line up to eat
   at the cheder-ochel?
A: By the numbers!

(but then, my tattoos are *much* nicer than theirs, and more colorful,
too :-)

Jonathan B. Horen
Sun System Administrator/Sr. Technical Writer
tel: (408) 736-3923 | email: horen@netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Messianics and us?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:22:52 GMT

dk = khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
a = Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>

a: become evangelical Jews and respond to >>the JC crowd by sending
a: them similar stuff telling them why they should convert to Judaism. If
a: there is an ongoing campaign, start posting our evangelical message to
a: their newsgroups!  :)

dk: These are very good solutions except the last one. A Jew should not
dk: encourage anybody to convert to Judaism. He should tell people that it
dk: is not for them and so on...

Evangelize them to observe the Seven Mitzvot.  Tell them it makes them
"completed Christians" who will view that bit about messiahhood and
divinity as a minor mistake on the path to true observance.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@         "WARENS statement in his signature express a Nazi idea."
/ nysernet.org 			    Gideon Ehrlich
From: krovetz@canberra.cs.umass.edu (Bob Krovetz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What does Hanukkah commemorate?
Date: 19 Dec 92 21:38:40 GMT
Reply-To: krovetz@cs.umass.edu (Bob Krovetz)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

Does the Talmud say how Channukah is to be celebrated?  Was
it even considered a holiday during that time?  When were
chanukiah's first used?

Thanks,
Bob

krovetz@cs.umass.edu


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish