From: oshiro@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Woodrow S Oshiro)
Subject: Re: Is this offensive?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:36:16 GMT

In article <RHB.93Jan25110341@world.std.com> rhb@world.std.com (Robert H Brueckner) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.064546.18197@en.ecn.purdue.edu> oshiro@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Woodrow S Oshiro) writes:
>
>   I did examine your article; and I didn't see this "main flavor" which you are
>   talking about.
>
>Obviously, to be understood by you I would have to cleave to the
>strictly literal. How boring. And how not worth it.
>
>  How else should I interpret:  "much more cruelly and relent-
>   lessly"?  If this was some attempt at sarcasm, the attempt crashed and burned
>   before it got off the ground.
>
>No, the fact is that the "ijime" Japanese experience lasts and lasts,
>whereas the bullying of American football jocks is more situational.
>If you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, you get
>smacked. But I'm still not defending *any* kind of bullying, and I
>wish you'd get that through your thick skull.

What's the deal about "defending *any* kind of bullying"?  I am not accusing
you of defending any type of violence.  I just think that you have contradicted
yourself on this issue in order to get out of an indefensible position.

And another thing; are you limiting the discussion of bullying in U.S. schools
to the shit pulled by some football jocks?  I thought it was only an example of 
bullying in the U.S.  I've met plenty of morons in high school who have had 
nothing better to do (e.g. going to football practice) than to pick on people
who were different.  This is a type of bullying that "lasts and lasts."

But, then again, maybe I should interpret your posts more literally.

>   > Next
>   >time you say "That was not all there was to your original claim," make
>   >sure you refer to *all* of it. It wasn't that long.
>
>   Let me give YOU a piece of advice.  Next time you get yourself into a position
>   you can't defend, admit you made a mistake.  Don't try to slime out of it.
>
>No, let me give YOU a piece of advice. Make sure you understand the
>posts here before you start to flame away. And don't base arguments
>on a couple of sentences taken out of context.

Geez.  You seem to believe that I have committed a mortal sin by not quoting the
entire paragraph in which the sentences were located.  So, here's the entire
paragraph.

     Well, you don't have to be Japanese-American to get thrown up against
     a locker in high school. Actually, all you have to be is smarter,
     shorter, weaker, or not a football player. So you're not being singled
     out, believe me, except that you are different. But let's compare
     treatment here, just for the hell of it, with that of anomalous people
     in Japan. Owada-san, the future empress, herself was victimized in
     this way, probably much more cruelly and relentlessly than any
     football player ever would have done it, merely because she had been
     abroad.

You see, Robert, the first three sentences deal only with bullying in the 
context of U.S. schools.  (That's a fair interpretation, isn't it?)
But, THEN, you address the issue of bullying in Japanese schools, vis-a-vis
bullying in U.S. schools.  You say that the Japanese bullying is "probably
much more [cruel and relentless]."  Yet, in your first response to me you say:

     If you examine my post
     which you excerpted you'll see that it's main flavor was that there
     *isn't* much difference, even if the portion you quoted may have
     seemed to be an apology for American dumbshit bellicose jocks who like
     to bully people (which was not the point I was trying to make).

"*isn't* much difference" == "probably much more cruelly and relentlessly"  ???
?????
Doesn't look like much of an equation to me.

> The fact that you cite
>my own admission in my article that "Neanderthals are Neanderthals,"
>ought to have made you think that maybe I wasn't trying to defend the
>jocks. A bit too subtle for you, perhaps? I'm not surprised. This
>commonly happens when people react with their emotions and not their
>brains. They lose all perspective and all appreciation of subtlety.

Again, when did I ever accuse you of defending "Neanderthals"?  I am accusing
you of contradicting yourself on this issue.

>BTW, my point in the "ijime" article is not to say that America is
>better than Japan. It is to show that, in spite of what apologists
>like you spout, Japan does have a lot of serious problems. I went
>through a phase where I thought Japan was a miracle country, and could
>do no wrong, and defended it absolutely to anybody. Then I learned
>more. I still don't think it's a bad country, and it's one I'm very
>interested iI still enjoy and appreciate it for many, many different
>things.. But it does have faults, and I think those should be as
>legitimate a point of discussion in this newsgroup as sumo or Yaohan
>or anything else.
>
>Some people, like you, Woody, seem to feel that any criticism of Nihon
>constitutes Japan-bashing. Well, in that case, I'd advise you not to
>read my posts. Because sometimes they do contain criticisms. And if
>you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
 
Talk about putting up a strawman!  
Let's see, Robert.  You are accusing me of:
 1.  Being an apologist for the problems of Japan.
 2.  Believing that the problems of Japan should not be discussed in this forum.
 3.  Believing "that any criticism of Nihon constitutes Japan-bashing."

Robert, I challenge you to find any evidence to back up your accusations. 
If you are searching for someone who is reacting on his emotions and not his
brains, I suggest you step into the washroom and take a look in the mirror.

-- 

						Woody Oshiro
						oshiro@en.ecn.purdue.edu