HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Is TI so rossy?
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:24:25 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science

In article <dqb=v+C@engin.umich.edu> echang@engin.umich.edu writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan2.233229.13167@topaz.ucq.edu.au>, huangz@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:
>
>> 	Worst thing was the possible war lasted several years, or several
>> decades. Yes, even 60% taiwanese could supported TI, but still there were 
>> 40% against it, and surely there would be some percent of people were 
>> determinded to fight to death to protect ROC.
>	
>	I'm working on persuading the other 40% to join the 60% in case
>China uses force, so expect a unanimous 100% support for TI in that situation.
>The price of invading Taiwan will be very high, so you might want to
>suggest Beijing government think twice. In addition, China will lose all the
>foreign investments, cooperations, and economic growth because of the war.
>
>Even a blockade of Taiwan Straight will lead to the same reaction from Taiwan. 
> 
>> 	It is not a funny game! look at history of China, it usually takes
>> several decades to restore order and law after big society change. Lood at
>> Yugoslavia and Bosnia, look at former Soviet Union, look at Korea, look at
>> Germany, look at North Ireland, and look at ourselves(if someone don't like
>> this word, take it as Taiwan and Chinese mainland), how painful is to be 
>> seperated into hostile entities! It is time to work out how to unify, but not 
>> how to seperate further. It may be a long and painful process, but won't be 
>> longer and more painful than an endless civil war.
>	
>You posted to a wrong newsgroup; people of Taiwan won't initiate a war.
>But, there is no way we give up our freedom, democracy and our established
>achievements to avoid a war.   As long as the threat is there, TI will be there.
two points:
   1. The prices you mentioned  the mainlander is going to pay, has been payed
 by mainland for at elast 20 years(1949-1972). Taiwan issue dragged mainland
to persue fully her intrests in world areana. We are willing to continue to
pay if we have to.
   2. Hostility will not be limited aournd the straight. mainland is now
possesing the capacity the do or not do somethind in the world which will
have major impact on potential interventionists. And if they do intervene, 
they better succeed, or they will have more to lose. If China have military
build up, say from current 3% of GNP to 60% of GNP, we will not limit the 
conflict to Taiwan, that for sure.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:16437 soc.culture.china:33332
From: stlin@stevelin.Eng.Sun.COM (Steven Lin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Date: 22 Dec 1992 00:54:08 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: stevelin


>>>KMT may have to bear full responsibility if DDP win in the future for missing 
>>>the opertunity for unification. bloodshed will be certainly the outcome for TI,
>>>sooner or later.
>
It is shame that Chinese people had to waste human resources by killing people
in ideology conflict, over and over, dynasty by dynasty, average 400 years in
one cycle. It is shame that many Chinese people using foreign force to suppress
internal conflict. The Tien-An-Mem  and Wu-Mem  of Beijing are the places full
with blood and ghost.

It is shame for a rich brother who trying to split property of parents' with
brothers. It is shame for a poor brother who shares no effort, but appears with
red eyes when seeing brothers gain wealth.

It is shame for high educated Chinese people fighting one another in a foreign 
land with low and nasty languages. It is shame for high educated Chinese people
wasting intelligence on fighting day by day on ideology conflict.

It is shame for all Chinese people, while a colony Hong Kong is going to return
to China control, most of Chinese people on that land choose to be ruled by 
foreign power but not Chinese (stealing) government. It is shame for all Chinese
people, when some choose to be independence and some choose to run away.

Why all the problems happen?  The high educated people ever try to think of?
Why Chinese people always have to suffer from poor? Why China remains in the 
level of backward and low development?

We all have one share of responsibility. Don't make 100-step laughing 50-step!


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Subject: Re: Chong1 Guang3 broadcast (Was Re: Excellence, Made in Taiwan)
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 23:42:42 GMT

In article <9015@dirac.physics.purdue.edu> npchen@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Nien-Po Chen) writes:
>For those interested in Chong1 Guang3 broadcast,
>
>In	US Eastern zone:	 5.950 MHz
>	US Central zone:	11.775 MHz

Thanks a lot, Nien-Po. I'll rush to Radio Shack tomorrow. :)

-- Chien-Chung Chen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:30:30 GMT

In article <C03IGE.rA@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>How much can you prepare? If there is going to be War across the Straight, it
>will not be a little one. For China side, Westen intervention should be
>considered. It will not be a civil War, it is going to be another battle
>between East and West civilization. The force in Taiwan itself will not play
>a major role in the future military confrontation, at least China will think
>that Way. 
>You know, We mainlanders are no longer Confusious_moralist_whimpy_monks. Past
>history of China taught us not to have any illusions in dealing with the
>West.

When have you become a PR consultant for Milosevic?

If a war happens, I am pessimistic about Taiwan's chances; the only power that
is close enough to come to its aid is Japan, and Japan currently has no reason
(conflict with China is too risky for Japan) and no legal way (against its
constitution) to interfere.

But of course, you, like Milosevic, will continue to insist that someone will.
Just like Milosevic claims that the Americans are on the side of the Bosnians.
(I wish that the Americans are, but yet we continue to see Bosnians
slaughtered, raped, chased out of their homeland, etc.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: China(was More than 50% support TI)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 02:56:34 GMT

In article <C0B1ns.AI3@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>Do not twist!
>Give your indication:
>  China's current grain, meat production ranks number  1 in the world.

I must say that I don't believe this; please show your numbers.

But even if China's raw numbers are higher, that doesn't prove that the land
is more fertile; you must then divide the raw numbers by the amount of land
in farm use.

>China has land that can produce  three harvests of rice and one harvest of
>weeds for fertilizer.

Hmmm...  Why do you want to produce weeds?  Or do you mean seaweed?  Yum!

(Sorry; I know that you meant "wheat," but I just can't resist it.)
>
>It is not you people(in Taiwan and West)'s invention to belittle the openent.
>Please take a look at other side of  story besides the one you got from your
>surrendings.

From the numbers I've seen, it's always been my impression that the Great
Plains area in central United States has always been the most productive.
From: ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: China(was More than 50% support TI)
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:32:59 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <C07q4o.DEA@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>     Confucianism is a rotten phylosophy, it makes people become whimp.:

	** What is the good side of Confucianism? 

>            b. Ancient China had relatively closed geographical region:
>                     NOrth: snow, ice, few people can service ther
>                     West: desert, hight moutains, not a attractive place
>                           for a civilisation;
>                     SoutWest: high mountains
>                     South: tropicall jungles, anything you build is going to
>                            be eroded by heat and water;
>                    East: water.
>               China had a pretty safe environment, though there were small
> scale threat from West and North in a few times. The most important task
> became how to pacify the people, Confucianism became natural choice.

	** The land of Chinese territory is like a spoon: 
	   high on three sides and facing the ocean. It is easy
	   for barbarians to "flow" into central China from
	   north, west and south if they are not checked by force.

	   Historically, whenever the central government is weak,
	   the barbarians envaded in.

	   The only reason that China is still China after a number
	   times of occupation by barbarian is because of the Confusianism.
	   It is the ultimate weapen to dissolved the enemy.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:50:30 GMT

In article <BzLtBK.IKz@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>People are giving too much credit for "Democracy". It is not an ideal world
>, any weakening effect on China is a lose for Chinese and a gain for somebody
>in this world who wants Chinese down. If you are sensitive enough and monitor some
>westen media long enough, you will see "democracy" rhetoric is only a 
>camouflag for them. It is the same thing as hundred years ago , 
>"christianization" by the West. That the government has more, drect, immediate 
>accountability is always wanted. But when you talk about "demo", which one?
>Can I declare my apartment to be independent, my county, my province, if I want
>to? It is a relative concept. 

Geez, sounds like democracy is the poison that we Chinese/Taiwanese should
try to avoid. Dr. Sun is weeping under the ground. Can you hear?

You are the second person I know who objects democracy on SCT.

-- Chien-Chung Chen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:22:24 GMT

In article <BzM5Bx.Mo@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>I have been living under CCP most of my life. I have relatives both CCP amd KMT
>member. Outsider world can hardly have a realistic view on CCP, should I 
>evaluate CCP? No. It is almost like talking about the meaning of life, 
>meaning of universe, existane of god. Both of the oposite sides can offer
>a big loundry lists of the good and the bad.

Hmmm.  If you talk to someone living under Saddam Hussein, I am pretty sure
that he can list a number of "good things" that he does as well.

>I need no lecture on populous concept! I am a self-trained political scientists
>given the level of political understanding among the netters.

But you're certainly no historian.
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: more than 50% support TI
Date: 23 Dec 1992 07:55:08 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <BzKwGA.3Ht@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) 
writes:
>When "36%" became a "big win", I thought it was less than 50% and minority.
>I could be wrong. You got to be ready to hear anything when you talk to TIers.

If we count in those votes to the main stream KMT candidates, such as Chen 
Jer-Nan, Wu Zee, Lin Yu-Shian, etc, who support "One China, One Taiwan" 
policy,  more than 50% of Taiwanese have voted for Taiwan Independence.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: AT&T Bell Lab
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:57:10 GMT

From article <BzMvAw.E2y@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, by cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi):
> In article <1992Dec21.160926.15558@zip.eecs.umich.edu> cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang) writes:
>>afraid of bloodshed ? If so, I don't think you can even have a child.
>>Besides, who can guarantee that there won't be bloodshed if KMT united with
>>CCP ? In fact, there may be lot more bloodshed if CCP come to Taiwan.
>>So, man, forget about CCP, its history in Taiwan.
>>
>>Yi-Chieh
> You are not going to get TI. We not only do not give dawm about you TIers, 
> also your foreign master on the Taiwan issue.
> Jiang Zhe Ming warned if TI, china will take "resolute measure."(Duan4 Ran2
> Chuo4 Si1).
> I was even supurised by the phrases used. You may be Chinese enough to know to
> meaning of the wording.
> 
> 

My recommendation is think about whether your "panic reaction" is
proper or not.

Heng-Hsin

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:21:53 GMT
Organization: IBM, Austin

In article <1992Dec21.160926.15558@zip.eecs.umich.edu> cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang) writes:
>
>Every country formed in this world cannot avoid bloodshed unfortunately.
>Even given the birth to a baby can't avoid bloodshed, so why are you so 
>afraid of bloodshed ? If so, I don't think you can even have a child.
>Besides, who can guarantee that there won't be bloodshed if KMT united with
>CCP ? In fact, there may be lot more bloodshed if CCP come to Taiwan.
>

It is the real intention revealed by a TI terrorist. They want bloodshed 
no matter what would result. They stay in the US and gladly see the blood
shed from somebody else's body as long as the blood did not drain from their
own body. See the grim face behind the mask. Why does this gentleman not let
his daughter's blood shed from her body involuntarily by other people?

Anyway, I hope this is not the typical attitude of a typical TI terrorist.

>So, man, forget about CCP, its history in Taiwan.

No, we can neither ignore the inherent threats from the CCP, nor the
hidden threat of the TCP (Taiwanese Commuist party) headed by Lee Teng-Hui.

8-D.


>Yi-Chieh
-- 
/* The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.         *\
 * Take care and have a nice day.                                            *
\* Ty Lee                                                                    */
Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:16403 soc.culture.china:33280
From: v999qx29@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Taiwan vs Mainland To The Extreme
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:54:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>> 
>>   Then, how to explain Taiwan's 10 billion trade deficit to Japan and
>Mainland's 8 billion trade surplus to the same country.
>> 

Because Taiwan buys machine and parts for assembling from Japan and has 
no resources to sell back.Actually, the deficit goes to U.S. after those
parts are assembled and sold to U.S. and Taiwan bear the name of dumping.
How wise are those Japanese. On the contrary, Japan buys resources from
mainland and don't have much chance to sell back their expensive product
to mainlanders who are now not too rich yet. This kind of surplus is just
like money earned from selling your inherited real estate.

I am not interested in arguing who is glorier. It is utter nonesense.
Men are created equal no matter you are richer or your ruler has more
guns. I just want to give a possibible explanation to the quoted sentences.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:57:55 GMT

In article <BzLFvo.B4A@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>If it is that dangerously close to TI(if DDP win). Why in the hell KMT is still
>reluctant to have direct dialog with CCP?
>KMT may have to bear full responsibility if DDP win in the future for missing 
>the opertunity for unification. bloodshed will be certainly the outcome for TI,
>sooner or later.

Please explain why.  I am hardly a TIer, but I don't think it will definitely
bring bloodshed.  At one point, it appears that Lithuanian independence will
bring the extermination of the entire Lithuanian nation.  As we all know, it
didn't.  Things can change in Beijing.  Things can change outside of Beijing
that would cause Beijing to hesistate using force.

Besides, the fact that the DPP won a significant portion of the vote this time
is an indication that they don't have a mandate to declare Taiwanese
independence without a plebiscite, and they know it.  Last time, at the
National Assembly elections, the DPP emphasized TI, and failed miserably.
This time around, they de-emphasized TI and instead advocated reform from
within, for the most part.  (Even those "TI candidates" that a TIer posted a
list of toned down their TI tenets.)  And besides, 36% is hardly close to
being a majority anyway, and even if they carry a majority, it would take
a major catastrophe on the KMT for them not to have enough votes to stop any
Constitutional revision.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe that the question of unification/
independence should be settled by a popular referendum, though.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re:    HATE EACH OTHER ? TIME FOR TIAWAN INDEPENDENCE
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:05:29 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Dec20.004414.14418@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>> 
>>> To advocate for the *right* to independence is not the same as advocating
>>> independence.  Just like to advocate for the *right* to abortion is not the
>>> same as advocating abortion.
>>
>>	** No, it is the same thing. 
>>
>>	   Tell me how could it be different?
> 
> Tell me how it is the same.

	** Something in the world should be black and white.
	   White is good and black is bad.
	   You can not support good and at the same time support
	   the "right of the bad". Bad thing has no right of anything.

	   Your principle applies well to gray things.
	   HOWEVER, you have to know: NOT EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD
	   IS GRAY.
> 
> By mixing these up, you are totally showing why many Chinese (I am speaking
> in broadterms here, not only the Chinese officials currently in China, but
> also in Taiwan, and in the past as well) had difficult time understand the
> concept of human rights.  By the right of speech, for example, you are
> supporting the right for someone to speak something, even if you don't agree
> with it.  For example, I certainly don't support Buddhism.  But I support the
> right for Buddhist temples to exist (although I think they are ugly :-)).
> 
> If you strip someone of his/her rights, you might be next.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: swu@eos.ncsu.edu (SHAWKANG  WU)
Subject: so called 'american educated'
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 05:10:05 GMT

Jaw got his master degree in machanics at Clemson University
but finished all his degrees from elementry up to his bachelor
in taiwan.  i wonder how accurate it would be when that's 
called 'american educated'?
i would not be surprised at all that Jaw won't agree on that.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: TI Terrorisms (was Re: Election in Taiwan)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 07:47:26 GMT

In article <Bzr2n9.2sG4@austin.ibm.com> tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee) writes:

>Sun has due reason to overthrow the corrupted Ching dynasty. I don't see any due
>reason to replace the current government with an equally cumbersome, ignorant,
>mobbish, vote-buying, scandal-ridden TI lunatics.

If the people want it, that is their choice.  I don't think, for example, that
the Lithuanian government is any more efficient than the Russian government
that the *Lithuanian people* chose to break from, but that was their choice.

And mobbish and cumbersome they might be, but how are they lunatic?  How are
they vote-buying?  How are they scandal-ridden?  Guys like Wang Jin-Ping
(whom I happen to know quite a bit about; I was from Pingtung, formerly part
of the 5th election district) don't belong to the DPP; they belong to the
Nationalist Party.

>I didn't accuse TI terrorists. I am not a prosecutor (chuckle :)) and I state
>that according the source I read. I have to explain it again. They were 
>inflamed involuntarily. 

At some points, I wonder if you are flaming involuntarily. :-)  But in any
case, the source that you read is hardly an unbiased source; for example, I
would have to assume that it tried to clear the government of all
responsibility in the Dr. Chen case.  (I forgot his given name, but he, on
a visit back to Taiwan, mysteriously died after falling from the second story,
after "talking" with the intelligence officers.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:44:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.160926.15558@zip.eecs.umich.edu> cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang) writes:
>afraid of bloodshed ? If so, I don't think you can even have a child.
>Besides, who can guarantee that there won't be bloodshed if KMT united with
>CCP ? In fact, there may be lot more bloodshed if CCP come to Taiwan.
>So, man, forget about CCP, its history in Taiwan.
>
>Yi-Chieh
You are not going to get TI. We not only do not give dawm about you TIers, 
also your foreign master on the Taiwan issue.
Jiang Zhe Ming warned if TI, china will take "resolute measure."(Duan4 Ran2
Chuo4 Si1).
I was even supurised by the phrases used. You may be Chinese enough to know to
meaning of the wording.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: lws@eembox.ncku.edu.tw (WenHsiang Lin)
Subject: A re-election is supposed to be hold on Hwa-Lian
Organization: National Cheng Kung University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:28:46 GMT

BIG NEWS!!!!!

  738 votes of unknown sources were found in Hwa-Lian!!! The questionable
votes were distributed across 12 different voting places. Hwang Sin-Je, the
former chairman of DPP, required only 62 more votes to win the election.
The election on Hwa-Lian is supposed to be declared effectiveless after
the necessary investigation, since the discovered evidence can effect the
result of the election significantly . This is the first possible cheat of 
election found in Taiwan. The goverment said that a whole or partial re-
election on Hwa-Lian will depend on the judgement from Judiciary. "I am 
willing to receive any kind of punishment.", the chairman of Hwa-Lian 
Election Commision said. Many edged losers in the election now suspecting 
the fairness of the election, and are asking for more re-examing processes 
of the votes. All Taiwanese/Chinese in this net, could you tell me your 
feeling about this event. I think that it's apparently a cheat instead of an 
accident. I had never suspected the fairness of elections in Taiwan since
the end of Martial Law, but until now.

WenHsiang Lin
From Taiwan