From: kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:36:16 GMT

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>"SLK>" is "kellmeyer steven l"
>"LCF>" is "Lawrence C. Foard"

>SLK>Why is *secular* reasoning superior to religious reasoning? 

>LCF>I'm sitting 10 feet from a machine that can produce 3d images of your
>LCF>internal organs, it was designed by secular reasoning.

>SLK>And it was designed in a country founded upon a belief in God.  The 
>SLK>country founded upon atheism and a belief in man no longer exists.

>REALLY?  Since when?  

>The USA was founded mainly by atheists, and laws were put in its
>charters to keep it that way.  Since then, we've moved farther away
>from religious influence, not closer.  Take a look at the number of
>judgements in the last few decades restricting things like prayer in
>schools, etc.

Greg, I have no idea where they attempted to teach you history, but
I don't think those NoDoze worked.  Not by *ANY* stretch of overblown
historical imagination were the founders of our country atheists.  
That's simply wrong.  The judgments given in the last few decades prove
not one thing about the founding fathers of this country - who would
undoubtedly be appalled at the incredible way their ideals were twisted.

>SLK>Hillary Clinton et.al. have reasoned, secularly, that children should be
>SLK>given the same legal rights and representation as adults, including the
>SLK>right to divorce their parents.  

>LCF>I totally agree with her, children are not slaves or property, parents are
>LCF>there to provide for and protect children. 

>SLK>Sorry, that isn't what she said.  She said that no individual should be
>SLK>considered incompetent until proven otherwise.  

>So you'd rather have a country where all individuals must prove their
>mental competency?  Those who can't "prove" it are SOL?  Only those
>with "state-approved competency" will have rights?

We have that now.  It's called "genetic testing".  Any unborn child 
which fails the test dies via abortion - at least the counselors work
damn hard to see that they do.

Furthermore, all individuals in a court of law must prove competency.
Always have had to.  The simple test is age - you have to be at least
X years old where X used to be 21.  If you're that old or older, 
competency is assumed unless someone questions it, at which point proof
of competency has to be shown. 

>You'd, of course, be using your own religious criteria, since you
>place so little weight on "secular reasoning."

Right now we're using _you're_ religious reasoning, only they call
it "science".  Science is as dependent on faith as any other form of
human thought.

>SLK>There exists no religion of which I am aware
>SLK>which holds that children are property and/or that a parent's 
>SLK>decision to abandon said children is acceptable.  

>Yes, but the Christian commandment "Honor thy mother and thy father"
>makes the children slaves to their parents, which is synonymous with
>property.  The choice is to do what mommy and daddy say or burn in
>Hell.  That's "religious reasoning" for you.

Greg, I'm really sorry you were abused as a child, but don't take it out
on the rest of the world, alright?  Your gross distortions of religion
do no one any service.  How you turn the word "honor" into an equivalent
of slavery is impressive - certainly the members of our military would
be glad to know that you consider them slaves for honoring our Constitution.


For your information, no representative of the Catholic Church has ever  
stated categorically that ANYONE is in Hell.  Christians have the right to
judge actions, not the right to judge people - only God can consign someone
to Hell.  Anyone who attempts to arrogate God's prerogatives to himself or 
herself is guilty of an offense against God, but how that offense is 
judged, how God's infinite mercy combines with his infinite wisdom and
infinite justice and renders up a verdict, is unknown to me and to
everyone else. 

>-- 
>-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
>  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
>  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
>  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
>  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure


Steve Kellmeyer
-- 

Steve Kellmeyer 
kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
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