From: sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha)
Subject: Value of Attitude (Re: Value of Stats)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:04:51 GMT

In article <Bs3s6B.2LF@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.191740.21143@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha) writes:
>
>
>He didn't get much of a chance to play before the lawsuit either.  If he 
>created a problem in the clubhouse with the lawsuit, why would the Jays
>keep him around.  If he is not playing and is a problem why keep him.  This
>is the main reason why I think that he hasn't been any kind of problem.

Except for the fact that Ducey is Toronto's "token" Canadian.  But enough of
him. Personally I don't think that he's a problem in the clubhouse
either, he's just happy to sit on the bench of the 1992 WS Champs, and get
one of those rings (which according to some other netter who won't read this
post, makes him better than Ted Williams) :-)

>>
>>Hm..Bell's problems with Williams re. the DH certainly did not affect the
>>start of the '88 season. Game 1, 3HR vs. KC. Game 2, 5/5 (all singles). The
>>first game in LF, the second game at DH.
>
>2 games is kind of a small portion of time to judge a player.  Look at his 
>stats that year.  They arn't that great.

Hmm..I didn't want to bring stats into this, but since you asked:

YR     G   AB  H  2B  3B  HR  R  RBI  AVG  OBP  SLG

84    159 606 177 39  4  26  85  87  .292 .326 .498
85    157 607 167 28  6  28  87  95  .275 .327 .479
86    159 641 198 38  6  31 101 108  .309 .349 .532
87    156 610 188 32  4  47 111 134  .308 .352 .605
88    156 614 165 27  5  24  78  97  .269 .304 .446
89    153 613 182 41  2  18  88 104  .297 .330 .458
90    142 562 149 25  0  21  67  86  .265 .303 .422

His '88 stats aren't as good as his '86 or '87 stats, but fall closer into
line with his 85 and 84 numbers.  How much of this was because of not getting
along with Williams? How much was affected since he wanted to show that he was
a decent defensive OF that he concentrated on his defense?  Or did he "dog it"
when he was DHing so that they'd put him back in the field? Or did he have
some injury that he was keeping quiet about so it would not affect
the team's chemistry?  Besides George Bell who really knows?

>
>He may have been a team player in the Clubhouse he may not have been.  By
>most of the media reports I heard was he had a problem with Junoir Felix,
>and they are both elswhere now.  Coincidence?  Probably not. 

Maybe, maybe not. Junior Felix's attitude problems are not at issue here.  
From what *I* remember, Bell was getting on Felix because Junior did not
give his all for the team.  Because Felix was concerned more about himself
than the team.  Hmm..sounds like Bell was trying to be a team motivator...


> But anyway
>by complaining to the media about the media, about the fans and about his
>new DH role along with his poor play he made a bad atmosphere for the players
>to play in.  I wish you would forget about the fact he was the third best
>OF the Jays had in '89.  It doesn't matter.  The problem I have with Bell
>is the way he complained about his role as DH.  It would have been much
>better if he had have talked to management, stated his point and if he didn't
>like the final decision he should have either stuck with it or asked to be
>traded.  He shouldn't have done this through the media.

The fact that he was the 3rd best OF in '89 *is* important. But I'll leave
that issue.  

If the Jays had respected George Bell as a player, the management should have
contacted Bell privately about moving to DH, instead of making a public
announcement about it.  Why is it ok for the management to have done this, but
not Bell? Sure it would have been better for Bell to speak privately with 
management about the move.  Management used the media to dictate to Bell the
actions that they were going to take.  The first question that the media asked
Bell was about the move to DH, not about whether or not the Jays could win it
all in '88, not about whether or not he could repeat as MVP, but about the
move to DH.  George was being himself and honestly gave his opinion on the 
subject.  With the media hounding him, what was Bell to do?  Even if he said,
"I plan to discuss the move with Jimy", the press would have taken that
to mean he meant to confront Williams.  So George is in a no-win situation.

The problem here is that the Toronto media is very competitive.  The Toronto
Sun still has an underdog reputation to beat.  So they try to make headlines
out of stories that aren't there.  John "Robbie" Robertson has not liked 
George Bell since 1985.  Since he is the beat writer for (first the Sun now
the Star) the Jays, what kind of article is Robertson going to write about
Bell?  So, I never read Robertson's columns.  Yet the majority of sportsfans
*do* read his column, and believe him.  So when he wrote nasty things about
Bell, the fans believed him, and thought poorly of him (thus the booing).

>
>>So? What's your point? I boo Joe Carter -now-. Does that mean he's a bad
>>influence etc?
>
>Why do you boo Carter.  He played 1B the other day and I recall him saying
>when he was first traded to the Jays that he would rather play the outfield
>and stay away from first.  He never complained the other day and I don't
>think he would complain if they asked him to do it again, even for an extended
>period of time.

Hmm. how do you *know* he didn't complain? Wait for the next Blue Jays Banter
when they talk to him. :-)  As for why *I* boo Carter? It's because I think
he is vastly overrated, hurts the team more than he helps them, should not
be batting #3 in the order, etc.  Sorry but that's my personal opinion of him.
(I won't bring stats in as usual).
>
>>My point is that Winfield is being selfish by playing in the OF because
>>it hurts the team defence and his pitcher's confidence knowing that there
>>is a slow, immobile OF in RF. 
>
>He only plays OF when Cito asks him to.  I can't blame him for taking 
>something given to him.  The same way I see no problem in players getting
>$6 million a year if the owners are going to give it to them.  You would
>do the same thing.  So would I.  So would almost everybody.  So is everybody
>selfish.

Maybe Winfield should do the right thing for the team and refuse to play OF?
Oh no, that wouldn't make him a team player.  

I guess what's in question here is : What makes a team player?
In your opinion (from what I've gathered so far), a team player is one who
plays hard, has fun, and does what the manager asks whether or not it helps
the team to win.

In my opinion a team player is one who plays hard, does his best to help the 
team win, and if necessary challenge a decision if it is not going to help 
the team.

>
>>You have not addressed my question about: Why is it ok for Winfield to 
>>not respect management, but it is not ok for Bell too? 
>
>I did.  The management didn't respect Winfield.  I don't feel anyone should
>respect someone else if that someone else doesn't respect him.  I think that
>Winfield has respected management this year.  He has never said anything bad
>about them and they have never said anything bad about him.

Aha. So why should Bell have respected the management over the DH decision?  
Why should he have done the "respectful" thing and talked privately to the
management, when they didn't do the same with him?  We both agree that
a player should be respected by his management, and if he's not, then he 
does not have to show respect for them.  Then why do you feel that Bell
should have respected the Blue Jays management over the move to DH decision?
They did not respect him, did not talk with him privately, but used
the media to announce the decision. 


As for Winfield, when he was with the Yankees, he often used the media
to attack Steinbrenner, as Steinbrenner did to him.  He was often portrayed
as a surly, moody individual.  So was Joe Carter during his time in 
Cleveland and his one year in San Diego.  Why was Carter traded from 2 teams
after he put up 100 RBI seasons? Could he have been a bad clubhouse influence?
*shrug* I don't know either.



Anand Sinha 
Jays #1 -> all the way in '92
Robbie Alomar for MVP 			Jeff Kent for ROTY
Sarah Sinha for MVP 2009 		Sarah Sinha for ROTY 2009
Juan Guzman for Cy Young

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