HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU)
Subject: Mr. Hellene and Ms. Helen (was: Re: DON'T RECOGNIZE SKOPJE-23 REASONS)
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:50:25 GMT

In article <101985@bu.edu> buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.133418.23311@eecs.nwu.edu> efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu 
>(Serafim Efstratiadis) writes:

 [dogfight deleted]

>>Serafim..............................Macedon at heart and Hellen in mind.

 [more stuff deleted]

>	again, needed to share with us: you love a guy, Macedon, while your 
>	mind tells you should love the girl, Hellen.
                                             ~~~~~~
Just a clarification:

       Hellene (with a final "e") = Greek
       Helen (with 1 "l") = Eleni, Elena, etc. (woman's name).

>	Yassu,
>
>		- Lou

*Antihaireto se me ligotero misos kai pathos*,

Dimitrios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: A question to A. T. Fear
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:43:38 GMT

gs@doc.ic.ac.uk (G Stoikos) writes:


>I would like to ask Dr. Fear if he could
                    ^^^^
>tell us the nationality of Aristotle.
>I am just curiousm to know .....

 You mean that this person holds a Ph.D.? This is a mistake, right?

>George Stoikos
>Dept. of Computer Science
>Imperial College, London 
>England

 Panos Tamamidis
From: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: SKOPJE PROPAGANDA HIDES THE FACTS
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:46:54 GMT
Reply-To: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility

From the mouthpiece of Skopje:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
US CONGRESSMEN URGE RECOGNITION FOR MACEDONIA
Skopje. Two American Congressmen, who were recently in Macedonia
as observers for the Conference on Security and Cooperation in
Europe (CSCE) organisation, yesterday in Zagreb urged the
international community give unconditional recognition to
Macedonia.
Senator Dennis DeConcini and Representative Frank McCloskey said
that the US should work for Macedonia's acceptance into the CSCE,
the UN and other international organisations. The two US
politicians will make an appeal to their country's State
Department, as soon as they return to Washington DC.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


The same info was published by Financial Times of London, yesterday.
BUT THE SKOPJE PROPAGANDISTS FORGOT TO ADD THAT THE TWO
AMERICAN CONGRESSMEN  ACCUSED THE SKOPJE AUTHORITIES FOR 
THE OPPRESSION OF ALBANIAN MINORITY IN THE REPUBLIC OF SKOPJE..


Spiros
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: A question to A. T. Fear
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:06:02 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1edl6jINN1op@oak2.doc.ic.ac.uk>, by gs@doc.ic.ac.uk (G Stoikos):
> 
> I would like to ask Dr. Fear if he could
> tell us the nationality of Aristotle.
> I am just curiousm to know .....
> 
> 
> George Stoikos
> Dept. of Computer Science
> Imperial College, London 
> England

Let me get my answer in before Andy Fear starts stirring things up!

Aristotle was a citizen of Stagira, an independent city-state in the
north-east of Chalcidice. It was colonized by Chalcis and Andros, and
the Ionian version of Greek was spoken there. Aristotle's mother was in
fact from Chalcis, where he ended his life.

Stagira did not come under Macedonian control until it was sacked and
destroyed by Philip in 347. The hinterland of Stagira seems to have been
Thracian rather than Macedonian (at least that is what Thucydides seems
to suggest).

Aristotle was not a Macedonian. If you had told a citizen of 
Stagira of Aristotle's time that he was a Macedonian, he would have have
been very deeply offended indeed.

Aristotle's family (like many other Greeks) did, however, work for the
Macedonian court from time to time.

I hope this nips in the bud what is likely to be an unprofitable
and tedious argument.

Richard Wallace.
From: gavras@acs.bu.edu (alexis gavras)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The small print
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:19:18 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gavras@acs.bu.edu

In article <1992Nov20.105840@imhfhp16.epfl.ch> gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros
Gavrilakis) writes:

>News that did not make headlines:
>
><<Roads in Latvia and Turkey are among the most dangerous in the world,
>and India has the highest overall death toll from automotive crashes,
>according to a survey. The report by the International Road Federation
>in Geneva also showed that Hong Kong has the highest density of vehicles
>on its overcrowded roads, 261 vehicles per Km and Kuwaitis own the most
>cars, 2.1 per household.>>


It's fitting that this item was posted in soc.culture.greek, although I'm 
amazed Greece isn't mentioned. If a study were conducted to measure the
density of the drivers themselves, of course that would change. Anyone who's
been there knows what I mean. It would seem that a large segment of the Greek 
population either believe themselves to be immortal as long as they've crossed 
themselves before they start driving, or through a genetic defects, consumption
of certain foods, water impurities, or perhaps a fondness of uzo, have somehow
been desensitized to their own survival instincts. By the way, I don't know 
how it is in Switzerland, but around here I don't expect much of anything to do
with Greece to make headlines.

>sg
                                     -Alexis

"Without music there would truly be reason to go mad."

                                          -Tchaikovsky


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos)
Subject: Re: The manipulators at M.I.L.S.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:01:57 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Bielefeld, Technische Fakultaet.

In article <BxtExJ.5yL@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de>, iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov8.130149.9809@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
|> |> Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos (iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de) writes:
|> |> >Well Brian, did you ever here of weapon dealers from Germany (or any other)?
|> |> >Did you ever think there might be some more weapons in Macedonia than just "
|> |> >two tanks and 23 rifles supposedly purchased recently from Bulgaria"? There
|> |> >is no UN embargo against Macedonia, so there is for sure enough gas for 
|> |> >their tanks.
|> |> 
|> |> 
|> |> But it's quite understandable that Macedonia wants to arm itself.
|> |> I would too with such a neighbour in the north.
|> |> -- 
|> |> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
|> 
|> We can only hope, that they want to use their arms for defense and not for offense (I am afraid of Macedonia and Greece getting involved in an oncoming Balcan war...).
|> 
|> Panos Tsiantopoulos.
|> 
And I forgot to ask everybody:

Do you remember when NAZI-Germany announced: 
"From 6.00 this morning we 're shooting back"
when they fell over Poland??? They only wanted to "defend" themselves, too.

Panos Tsiantopoulos.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10735 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9599 soc.culture.europe:9680
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 23 Nov 92 00:17:25 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <By4Lxz.Lnt@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>
>Indeed as I've said I doubt if there's 100% proof on anything in ancient
>history. But the Greek revisionist position has even weaker indications
>to go on. Hence the balaence of evidence when looked out with
>preconceptions leads us to the view the Macedonians weren't Greek.


 Once more you avoid to answer the following very simple questions:

 1. Do the modern Greeks have stronger arguments to be considered
    CULTURAL offsprings of the:

    a.  Ancient Greeks, than the

    b.  Ancient Macedonians?   and, ofcourse, why?


 2. Do the modern Greeks or Skopjians have stronger points to be
    considered CULTURAL offsprings of the ancient Macedonians?


 Gr

PS: I know that when you are forced to the corner your twisted brain
    takes the most irrational decisions. You have, unfortunately, stopped
    your psychological development to that of a toddler :-)))!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: "Bayraktar/Omerye" mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:57:32 GMT


>In article <9211120158@zuma.UUCP>, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
>|> UNESCO expert Mr Jacques Dalibard's report presented in Jan 1976,
>|> no. RP/975-76/3.41.
>|> 
>|> This report expresses in para. 6.c. that "Bayraktar" and "Omerye"
>|> mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks and that their
>|> minarets had been destroyed by them.
>|> 
Here's another gem from Serdar/Mutlu database.  Both these monuments are
in Nicosia, and I happen to Know that they are in perfect condition.
They have been restored and are maintained by the Antiquities Dept.  The 
Omerye mosque, known to the Greek Cypriots as the Emerqe mosque is actually
being used the  by Musulmans living in Cyprus.
Another place used by Muslims is the Omar Harra Tekke by the salt lake in 
Larnkaka.  This mosque is very important for Muslim people, next to Mekka and
Medina, as Omar Harra was the sister of Moameth who died in Cyprus, falling
from her horse, in one of the Raides by Saracins.  This is also in 
perfect condition.

>|> Serdar Argic

-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10649 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9555 soc.culture.europe:9612
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:25:51 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

For a scholar's view of Borza's work I suggest the review in the latest
number of the American Journal of Philology - not a journal for giving
good reviews to 'garbage'.  I think 'garbage' here might mean historical
fact which undercuts Greek-devised pseudohistory.  Once again we have
the interesting technique of posters insulting individuals who disagree
with them by impuning their personal habits - can one suggest why this
is so recurrent?


>  Note however, that even this
>  highly "recommended" person says that Macedones were Hellenized.  NOBADY
>  can ever present any arguments for the contrary. 

I think what we can say is that some parts of Macedonian society were
Hellenised (to a variety of degrees), others were not.  Moreover this a
very different claim to the one usually made which is that the
Macedonians were straight-forwardly Greek.  Because a society borrows
aspects of another culture (Borrowing is never total and what is
borrowed is often changed.  Moreover different parts of society take on
board different levels of the borrowed culture, just because the Argeads
and their court affected Greek manners we don't need to infer that the
rest of Macedonian society did so) doesn't turn the borrowing culture
into part of the lender culture.  (BTW this is even true of language,
the Jewish population of ancient Alexandria spoke Greek as their mother
tongue but were firmly Jewish in outlook).  So Hellenisation won't turn
the ancient Macedonians into Greeks any more than it made the various
Asiatic peoples of the near East who were Hellenised at some level
Greek.  People will be telling me that Mithridates or Mausolus were
Greeks next. 


>   According to Prof. Borza, it is very clear that this star was the emblem
>   of the ancient Macedones.  

Interesting, is this in print or personal conversation? There is still
no convincing proof that this is the case I think, just a more or less
(I think less) plausible guess, and it does seem odd that if the sun
burst was such a symbol that it does feature more prominently on things
like Macedonian coins.  I suppose the issue at the momemnt though is
that it's assumed to have been such an emblem and as such both Greece
and the Republic of Macedonia have a right to use it (or perhaps they
could just give it back to the realm of ancient history where it can do
no harm...)

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: chstu59@ikaros.cc.uch.gr ()
Subject: Reply to :Asshole
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Crete HELLAS
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:59:12 GMT

Hi mr Edwaed.Who gives you the right to call others assholes?.
But being rude is a part of your "admiring orthodox".What do
you know about orthodoxy or islam ? So at least be more polite
if you can.
Giorgos.
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greece reacts sharply to Skopje map of 'Greater Macedonia'
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:45:06 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <Bxxv6v.Aqx@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
> 
> 	ATHENS, Greece (UPI) -- Greece reacted sharply Tuesday to a map
> published in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia that showed Greek
> territory as part of a ``Greater Macedonia.''

The important question to ask of course is who published this map. It
wasn't published by the Macedonian government, and at this point we
could refer once again to the Macedonian constitution which explicitly
states that Macedonia has no territorial claims on Greek soil. You
simple cannot infer that the Macedonian government, or the Macedonian
people as a whole, have the same view as a group of extremists in
Macedonia. It is worth pointing out though that Greek posturing can only
serve to strengthen the hand of such extremists within Macedonia. I bet
you can buy maps from Greek fascist groups in Athens which show a
greater Greece which includes Cyprus and parts of Turkey. If Messr.s
Mutlu or Argic were to present this as 'evidence' that Greece wished to
attack Turkey they'd be laughed out of court, and quite right too. This
argument is on the same level.

Andy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10640 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9549
From: rizos@cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:54:55 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek

Lambros Skartsis (ls1@cec1.wustl.edu) tells us that Andy Fear said:
>> - that modern Slavomacedonia is the continuation of ancient Macedonia.

A.T. Fear (cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk) replies:
>I've never said that and would attack anyone who did, but oddly no-one
>seems to take this position, say Greeks who say other people do, but
>then can't come up with any examples.

It seems that Andy Fear doesn't remember very well... Let's help him...

In article <rsakella.716309366@p4.cs.man.ac.uk>, I pointed out several
of the confusions that some people want to create on the history of
Macedonia. And I observed how these people use the name Macedonia in order 
to imply a relation between the x-Yugoslavia's "People's Socialist Republic 
of Macedonia" and the use of the name Macedonia since antiquity. Asking if 
such a relation exists, in <4063@keele.keele.ac.uk>, Andy Fear 
(cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk) replied positively: YES

The concluding paragraph of my article was the following:
     In all the above statements I observe the use of the name Macedonia
     with different meanings; the common characteristic is that all these
     different interpretations are used in order to imply a relation
     between the x-Yugoslavia's "People's Socialist Republic of Macedonia"
     and the use of the name Macedonia since antiquity...
     Does such a relation exist?

And A.T. Fear replied (article <4063@keele.keele.ac.uk>):
     Yes.


--r.

PS: I completely agree with Mr. Lambros Skartsis' article and, once more,
I'd like to repeat that there are plenty of books on Macedonia; anybody 
interested in the subject can visit his/her local library and read them...
From: Lynn Gazis-Sax <lgsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:43 PST
Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov15.171456.13767@enea.se:-491508269:cdp:1473100070:000:2743
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!lgsax    Nov 16 19:43:00 1992


I'd like first to thank Luben Boyanov for his clarifications
of history (which I accept).  In response to L. Skartsis:

It's hard for me to say very generally what the Macedonian
Slavs say on these topics.  There are a lot of them, and
I was only there for two days.  Also, my sample may have
been biased since I was trying particularly to talk with
Macedonians who were involved in peace organizations (but
I figured it was still worth passing on since the postings
of Macedonians on the net could well be biased in another
way).  

On Alexander the Great:  Vlada said flatly that Macedonians
had nothing to do with Alexander the Great.  I have seen
a couple of posters on the net say the same.  On the other
hand, there was one poster right before I left who maintained
the ludicrous view that these modern Macedonians were related
to the ancient Macedonians rather than Slavs (I recall at
least one Macedonian disavowing his views), and the historian
Ivo Banac mentions in *The National Question in Yugoslavia*
a historian, Vinko Pribojevic, who tried to claim that the
ancient Macedonians were Slavs (he was Croat rather than
Macedonian, so I mention this mainly to say that the Greeks
didn't invent this idea that someone might want to appropriate
Alexander the Great, rather than to say that this directly
shows anything about what views would be current in Skopje.
I think I remember one of our guides or maps seeming to fudge
the issue - not saying that Macedonians were descended from
ancient Macedonians, but describing Alexander the Great as
part of the general heritage of the region.  My best guess
is: a small fringe element thinks of Alexander the Great
as theirs, a large group feels no real connection at all,
and another group feels some connection, but probably not
an exclusive claim, and with the understanding that they
are actually descended from Slavs (maybe something like
English feel for the Celts, probably not as strong a connection
as Scots or Irish feel for the Celts).  But I don't know
for sure.  I also don't know why they chose that flag.

On the name, and the connection with other Macedonias:
Vladimir Milcin said that it was purely geographical,
no other connection.  All the people I talked to in
the street said that Macedonia didn't want any additional
territory - so they were saying, anyway, that they didn't
consider the other Macedonias (in Greece and Bulgaria)
part of their country.  I am not sure whether that means
that they feel there was never a connection, or whether
that means that they feel that events since the Balkan
Wars have put a rest to any connection, or what exactly
the reasoning is (since the only person I spoke with at
length about this was Vladimir Milcin).

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10613 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9536 soc.culture.europe:9572
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: material requested for Greece before 500 BC
Date: 15 Nov 1992 13:39:25 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

kristinw@cc.usu.edu writes:

> I am doing a research paper on ancient Greece.  I am interested in anything
> that deals with traditions, education and customs, and maybe even government.
> Please write me at:

	[deleted]

> Thanks in advance.  I really appreciate any information, especially if it's 
> about anything before 500 B.C.

I suggest you contact sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic/Hasan Mutlu) and
ask for details. He has all the National Enquirer (Greek/Ottoman/Armenian
/Jewish) issues, going back to 20E+4 BC. 

I'm sure that with his historians/back-office-support he could provide you
with dirt on Greeks going back to Noah and his Arc... (I wonder if Noah
took chicken and turkey with him)...

His best piece is the one about Prehistoric Greeks (Homo Grekus) and
Prehistoric Armenians (Neandendral-ians) mistreating Dinosaurs in 
early 14E+4 BC. 

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10689 soc.culture.jewish:20464
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: 1st Re: jesus of Nazareth
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:22:29 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Nov12.232516.12091@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

>In article <4444@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
>   Informs me that I need to have my eyes examined:

I wrote nothing about Joel's eyes.

>>It seemed that there is no base to  Goldber's information as if
>>he [Rambam (JG)] is burried at Tiberia.
>   Asserts the existence of tachyons:

My English is not good enough to understand the last statement.
If it is some kind of a joke than it seemed Joel did not learned the
problematics about Rambam burrial cite. He died at Cairo area, So why
Tiberia?
One very old explanation is: a camel was asked to decide about the
burrial cite and that camel decide: Tiberia !
There are still other stories locating Rambam tomb to be at Hebron.

> ...   and generally catches me out as a X ( I putthe X   g.e.)

I did not wrote you are an X. But IF you are an X.

Instead of blaming others for considering such a thing as possibility
you had to send a private mail asking for advice.

Shalom   Gideon

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: bus experiences in Greece, Skopje
Date: 15 Nov 1992 13:38:30 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

lgsax@igc.apc.org (Lynn Gazis-Sax) writes:

> OK, I know I'm flamebait for what I said about Macedonia.
> I asked for it, and I can't really bring myself to
> retract what I said, since it was what I saw, so I'll
> just accept the flames.

I've posted worse and received no flames; I would not worry about it.

> But it has been brought to my attention that I may have
> sounded more derogatory about Greek trains and buses
> than I intended.  I apologize if my remarks about the
> Greek transportation system sounded insulting.  I'm not
> really upset about it. 

For an American (well American Greek) that has never used Amtrac or
Greyhound, that description may be a bit harsh. For anyone who has
used mass transit both in Greece and in the US, there's no comparison.

We may not have restrooms in buses (buses make stops every couple of 
hours and most bus rides are not that small anyway). Trains are well
equipped and quite comfortable. Delays are due to the stupidity of the
system design (single rail lane most of the time instead of double).

Or, if we want to be really nasty, let's compare the Athens metro (ok,
"metro") with New York's finest :-). Like I said, for most Greek
Greeks (i.e. myself) it is no big deal to come out of a two car,
drive-to-the-cornerstore-for-candy-i-love-suburbs mode into a
pack-them-well-(sardines)-and-pour-the-olive-oil mode of using mass
transit in Greece. Hell, I even remember most bus routes and I've been
gone for 11 years. It does get hard at times (after being used to your
own car) but it really ain't that bad.

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe