HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 09:22:27 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      RE: small library

Wes, we're working on changing that situation re hypertext around here (though
that situation is extraordinarily complicated, as you'll see in a subsequent
posting on this station).  But that don't mean _Writing Space_ is important
reading only for people interested (positively) in hypertext; it seems to me
arguable that people interested in more traditional forms might also have a
stake in Bolter's argument, even if only to challenge his claims.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:11:25 CDT
From:         McDonald James C <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: change (deja vu)

A year ago I was in a conversation with a philosophy professor here, and we
began talking about the shapes and changes in our two disciplines.  Looking at
all we teach in the English department here--literature, composition, creative
writing, linguistics, tech writing, folklore--he asked me the reason for this
and I began going into history and politics.  But I was talking to a philosopher
and he stopped me.  He wanted to know the logic behind grouping all these into
English.  "Logically," he asked (Spock-like), "doesn't literary studies belong
in the anthropology department?"
   That pretty much ended the discussion since I got too caught up in a fantasy
of rhet/comp people kicking the lit people out of English and how the
anthropologists would react.  I don't know whether or not that move would be a
good one, but I think it could be fun to stand back and watch.
    Jim McDonald
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:46:41 -0500
From:         "Joe Amato" <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Suspicion, par

>I just want to be able to love poetry and composition and computers all
>at the same time-- anal of me, isn't it, not wanting to let go of anything!?

Hey John, not anal at all!  Just a perfectly reasonable and (even these
days) refreshing way of thinking about teaching and learning.

Joe
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:23:04 ADT
Comments:     <04SEP92.22010024.0035.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      audiences

     I, too, would be interested in hearing about Dickie's
"rather limited list attempts."  If it would be repetitious for
longer-standing subscribers, maybe via a back channel.  But I
imagine there are enough new people this time of year that not
many would be inconvenienced.  I want to say something quickly
about Wes Chapman's other question, though -- "How do you ensure
that everyone actually finds something that they're genuinely
interested in?"

     I don't know how you ENSURE it, exactly, but you can make it
a lot more likely by putting it into an immediate context.  In my
case, what I might do is get the class to write questions on the
basis of reading in a range of textbooks (I put examination
copies in the library; sorry, Norton and Ronald Press), help the
class edit and select the questions, then auction them off to
individuals or groups to research and write short reports on.
Then I circulate the reports (electronically or via photocopies).
We read those and compose a new set of questions (or sometimes
people ask questions of the authors which send them back to the
library).  I don't know if that's "genuine" interest (one of my
courses is in eighteenth century literature, a subject in which
not many undergraduates have a preexisting interest), but it
works for an awful lot of people.  What I'm GENUINELY interested
in I don't know, but I do know I GET interested in what the
current conversation's about.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)    Development Officer
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 11:32:11 -0500
From:         sm51@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject:      Paranoia Blues

There's only one thing I need to know:
Whose side are you on? -- Whose side are you on?
                                     -- Paul Simon, "Paranoia Blues" (1971)

Just a reminder to Bob Connors that there are, in places like my own,
young PhDs trying to teach cultural studies AND two or three sections of
comp for less than outstanding wages.  (And I don't mean me.)

I know we're not typical, but here at Tech all faculty members teach
composition as well as anything else (well okay, there are 2 or 3
exceptions, one of whom is the Chair).  Also we're not called English,
we're Literature, Communication, and Culture.

Is this the future and does it work?  Sure it is! (and I have this bridge I
could sell you...)
We have our share of squabbles and snobberies and paranoias.  But we do
not, in general, look down upon people who teach freshman comp or technical
writing or speech communication.  Because that's us.

Just wanted to let it be known that there may be alternatives to the
Division of Rhetoric solution.  (And btw, I don't read "Division" at UTA as
"Division of the English Deparment," I think it really means "Division of
the Dean's Office").

Stuart Moulthrop
School of Whatizit
Georgia Tech
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 09:08:15 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Splitting comp

I'm in murky waters here, Nancy: whether or not the Rhetoric and Composition
Division is to be allowed (or better yet, encouraged) to pursue a research
agenda is very much an open question, I think; signals are that virtually all
the details as to implementation are on the table for negotiation except for
the basic notion of the split itself.  If that's true, and if I'm involved in
any way in the negotiations, I'll be arguing as strongly as possible *for*
that research emphasis.

As for your summary of the 306 controversy two years ago: yes, I think it's
reasonably accurate.  But I want to point out something odd that I've only
just begun to realize: BOTH sides (to the extent that there were only two;
maybe I should say ALL sides) seem to believe they lost the battle.  To wit:
Brodkey has indeed left, for UC San Diego where she reports things are going
well; but so have Alan Gribben and James Duban, two of the most vocal
opponents to the proposed changes in the 306 syllabus: Gribben is now Chair of
English and Philosophy at Auburn/Montgomery, and I believe Duban is Chair of
English at U of North Texas in Denton.  The lit people in the English Dept,
who'd have preferred a syllabus rooted in literary readings, also feel that
they lost something-- and certainly this split threatens deep cuts in the
department.

So how do we read this?  Perhaps it is indeed accurate to say that everyone
lost (it's hard to think of anyone who actually won, or at least won anything
but a Pyrrhic victory).

The issues are enormously complex; I'm hoping that it will be possible to
induce people to put their egos aside and try to figure out some way to make
this place work as a university where students can learn and teachers can too.
Please help us figure out how to do this!

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:05:36 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Definition question for MBU

 *** Reply to note of 09/06/92 15:33
 Eric, you might like to see the problem formulation stuff in Joe Williams'
 Little Red School House materials. The materials are excellent, but Williams
 acknowledges that U Chicao juniors often have a great deal of difficulty with
 the task of identifying and formulating problems. Susan MacDonald's studies of
 literary scholarship suggest that most folks who write articles in PMLA have
 similar problems. I don't think it's such a bad idea to give freshmen a little
 help with problem formulation. Get them used to dealing with real problems in
 their writing. Then (and I don't mean later in the semester--the learning
 curve on this is pretty gradual) move them into problem formulation.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:38:39 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Critical thinking & assigned tasks

Russ: three cheers from Buffalo.  Myles
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 13:31:00 EDT
From:         Greg DiMedio <T270100@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ice T and Murphy Brown

Ron:
As one who has an interest in punk culture and the Ice T controversy,
I find your criteria for judging the value of Ice T's music a little
silly.
I don't believe that Ice T feels as if the value of his music is based
on how effectively it generates a group discussion for Anglo-Saxon
America.  If you would dip into modern rhetorical theory and look at
Foucault, I think you would draw a more fair assessment of Ice T and
counter-cultural music in general.  "The Subject and Power" and "Truth
and Power" are two essays that should shed some light on what Ice T
is all about.
As an Italian-American who is fed up with WASP dominant cultural values,
(if I see another television commercial with an Italian waiter saying
"mama mia" or an Italian-American actor dressed in black and associated
with organized crime, I am going to scream), I find a discussion on
Ice T far more compelling than whether or not a well-to-do, Northern
European White woman decides to have a baby with or without a well-to-do,
Northern European White man.
I think racism and urban decay are more compelling issues than a fictional
TV character's subtle dilemmas.  Ice T moves me to think about why he is
so pissed off and why those emotions exist.  I'm sure Ice T's fans would
"kill" for the kind of pre-natal care Murphy Brown received.

  Greg DiMedio   T270100@UNIVSCVM.BITNET
                 University of South Carolina
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:54:12 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      Re: Daedalus

>Can anyone give me the current address of Daedalus?
>
>Bill Wresch BWRESCH@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU

Bill ,

I have Daedalus Group, Inc.
       1106 Clayton Ln,. #248 W,
       Austin, Tx.  78723
       512-459-0637

Locke Carter sent me the last letter.
Dickie Selfe
Technical Communication Specialist-102 WAHC
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, Michigan  49931
906-487-2447
<rselfe@mtu.edu>
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 08:30:07 -0500
From:         "Joe Amato" <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: change (deja vu)

Yeah, the discussion is definitely taking distinctively productive
directions...

I, too, would like to think that English departments will eventually mutate
into more, uhm, vital and contemporary organizational entities.  However,
it wouldn't surprise me if existing departments somehow proved versatile
enough to accommodate change under the auspices of English.

What I'm alluding to is the sometimes stubborn persistence of existing
institutional structures.  I can readily see English finding a way to
accommodate all sorts of things under the rubric of "language," for
example---which *could* be a helpful development provided it didn't serve
the purposes of an elite few.  Which, btw, is NOT necessarily to be taken
as a slam against literature folk, but simply against those who regard
their areas of expertise as beyond interdisciplinary reproach.

Perhaps this broaches on a discussion of utopian visions.  But let's keep
in mind that institutions can be amazingly durable, and often surprise us
with their resiliency when it seems certain that they're on the ropes.
Sure---there are places where English has fragmented into a variety of
disciplines, but there are many others where the traditional English
department has managed to accommodate a remarkable variety of new ideas,
newly-defined appointments and new degree requirements, yet still manage to
operate in many ways as its predecessors.  I'm trying not to sound too
judgmental, but I probably share with many of you a certain suspicion as to
precisely how "new" all of this really is, esp. from the standpoint of
seeking tenure and such...

New or no, if it's change we're looking for, I think we'll have to look a
bit harder at what it is we'd like to see happen, what sorts of changes
might be required across the profession, before we accept the irrevocable
demise of a hundred-year old institution.   Given all the background
political chatter about "change," seems to me we owe it to ourselves to be
a bit exacting about our speculations.

Joe Amato
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:39:00 -0400
From:         eng_allen@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU
Subject:      Trent's address

My first message to Trent bounced back too, but I found at least
one answer to the puzzle that seems to apply to David Schwalm's
version of Trent's address.  Although Gallaudet is spelled with
an au, Trent's bitnet address is gallua.  You might try that,
David and others who've had messages bounce back.  Or you might
have better luck with the edu version.

Trent, do you know why the letters are reversed in the bitnet
address?  It's not what we expect from the name of the school.

Nancy Allen
eng_allen@emunix.emich.edu
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:42:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject: Re: Texas

If I had the chutzpah to pull my colleagues noses, I too would have wanted
to split the comp program off of the English Dept.

Is Maxine Hairston still at Texas? Does the proposal there arise from her
article of some years ago making that recommendation?

John B
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:47:07 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         BAHUOT01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Splitting comp from eng (14)

The problems of working with colleagues not trained in Comp theory and research
 are real, though I'd be careful of too much generalization since some lit
trained folks have made huge contributions in composition.  This however seems
like a different issue than structuring comp outside of English.  The real
question it seems to me has already been addressed in terms of cutting the
right deal to retain enough power and autonomy as a separate entity within the
university.  One problem we had a Syracuse was that the majority of the TA's
took almost all of their classes in the English Department from instructors
who had a very dim view of the Writing Program and didn't mind telling their
students.  The result was a lot of suspicion, some paranoia and a good bit of
resistance.
             Brian Huot
             University of Louisville
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:04:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      not so formal

To follow up Bob's comments about the setting up of list's not
always being so formal:  I was able to set up several lists at
Tech with a phone call.  The fellow was amenable to helping me
out, a nice guy with evidently not a lot of demand on his
computer.  I have talked to others with completely different
stories.  It seems to me that Bob's advice about starting out
with local purposes (graduate students' discussion groups,
faculty theory discussion, etc.) is generally the right way to
go.  My experience has been that computer folks are very
independent and will either be extremely helpful and go way out of
their way for you (and I have known a number like that) or will
make filling out a form the most excruciating experience of your
life.  Fred Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:16:04 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ice T and Murphy Brown

 *** Reply to note of 09/05/92 07:21
 Mainly, rather than choosing between ice T and MB, we should be helping our
 students acquire the critical thinking tools necessary for analyzing cultural
 phenomena for themselves. We have no clue what is or is not an important
 cultural phenomenon. Hee Haw and Billy Ray Cyrus, for all we know, are more
 important culturally than IT and MB together. And the whole bunch of them are
 probably slick commercialized versions of the grass roots pop culture that
 will never emerge from the obscurity of regionalism. Trying to pick important
 pop culture phenoms is like trying to teach the great novels and poems of this
 year.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 14:14:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) All whites are not WASPs (12)

$undigest -s="All whites are not WASPs (12)" [.new_news]cmpd6258.mss

Date:         Sun, 06 Sep 1992 10:12:32 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Sep06.101232.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      All whites are not WASPs (12)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Some of us come from cultures which were oppressed by the WASPs in their (the
WASPs) (stolen) native land.  IMHO, la[i]bel an Irish-American a WASP (no
matter the color of his/her skin/eyes/hair) and you've spat in his/her face.
My poor Scots-Irish maternal ancestors settled in rural NC in the early
1700s.  My father's family escaped religious persecution from the Alsace
(one-half from the Germanic "side" the other from the Frankish) in the 1850s.
I get called a WASP often.  If we're going to encourage ethnic identity and
ethnic pride, let's learn something about each other's cultures instead of
recriminating one another.  I agree with David--the power structure is money
based.

BTW I saw an interesting interview between David Cavett and Public Enemy a few
months ago.  That group, which is college educated by the way, return some of
what they receive to their home.  I find PE videos haunting and disturbing--as
powerful as any docudrama or full-length film.  But I liked to listen to the
Last Poets when I was in junior high and high school.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology

*************************************
$deassign sys$output
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 15:31:00 PDT
From:         Paul_J_LeBlanc@CUP.PORTAL.COM
Subject:      Bliss

Margaret Daisley's account recalls a wonderful experience I
had with a lit class and ENFI last year.  I was teaching
a course in Gay and Lesbian Literature and class discussion was
often awkward when it moved towards the students' own sexual
orientation (about one third of the class was gay or lesbian, as
I later discovered, though many were not "out").

I moved the class into our computer writing lab and
plugged them into INTERCHANGE using pseudonyms.  There then
ensued an amazing class discussion with students openly
discussing their own lives/sexual orientations/experiences.
For some, it was catharsis -- saying things to fellow students
they had never said aloud before.  Hetero students were able
to ask questions of their gay peers they may have never otherwise
asked.

After three or so such sessions, we could then have face-to-face
discussions that were almost as open and frank and welcoming.
That group reached an amazing state that culminated in the group
attending two of the lesbian students' wedding/union ceremony later
in the year.

I run into those students often and they still talk about that
class and about ENFI.
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 11:16:32 -0500
From:         sm51@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject:      Texas

What's the latest news from/about the UT composition program?  John
Slatin's recent posting reached me in my lurking and I think there's reason
for concern.

While the takeover of a writing program by an administration is certainly
nothing new (and maybe nothing to worry about), there's more at issue in
this case.  John describes the Dean of Humanities as a major player in the
takeover.  John, has there been any change in that position since King
replaced Meacham?  Because, folks, if there hasn't, then this takeover
smells of politics, and we're talking Pat Buchanan/Lynne Cheney-style
politics, not just campus powerplaying.

I hope nobody's forgotten the mess Linda Brodkey found herself in with
E-306.  From what John says, it looks as if the NAS types still aren't
satisfied.  I don't know if there's much we can do, aside from supporting
John, keeping informed, and writing in protest if that seems called for.
But as a lot of folks warned two years ago, what's happening in Austin is
not just Texas as usual.  If big research universities start imposing
ideological controls on writing programs, you could be next.

Stuart Moulthrop
Georgia Tech
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 07:30:11 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring real life to Lit classes (7)

Myles:
   Our "same different realities" kept me from raising the reality issue in
my classes--again.  As soon as I walked into our classroom/computer lab, the
more compelling topics were, from the students' perspective: How do I save my
MS Word (Mac version) file to my disk?  How do I prepare for our review draft
session next week?
   If I ever get around to it, I'll post the results. (Notice the shift from
a specific _when_ to a tentative _if_, bypassing a noncommittal _when_
altogether.  Fear, perhaps, that my students will tell me that they're in my
freshman comp class because it's a requirement?  That they don't buy any of
the humanistic reasons for developing writing skills?)

Jim
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:45:43 EDT
From:         Mary Alm <T270102@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: From The Land of Just-In Time Supplying

Thanks for sending Mark's message about networked classrooms.  I haven't
heard anything out of him and figure the ball is in his court.  Our days
together as a threesome are receding ever more into the reminiscent mists.
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