From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: LDS: Nibley, genius or fool
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:55:27 GMT

HISWJH@BYUVM.BITNET writes:
 [... ...]
> Glen claims (without substantiation, of course) that Nibley says he
> can't read Hieroglyphics.  What Nibley actually said, was that in 1967
> he couldn't deal with demotic and hieractic script well, a very different
> thing.

No, what Nibley said was:

  'I dont consider myself an Egyptoliogist at all, ...'
_Letter written by Nibley, dated June 27, 1967_
(documented in Tanner, Shadow or Reality, p.307)

>At any rate, that was 25 years ago.  If Glenn has read everything
> Nibley has written, as he claims, then he would have read the "Message
> of the Joseph Smith Papyri" in which Nibley deals with Egyptian extensively.

Nibley's book you mention is a very good example to substantiate Glenn's
claim.  Nibley translated only 2 of the 10 fragments, and these 2 had
already been translated many years previously.  Nibley failed to discuss
the meaning of the hyroglyphics of 'Facsimile No. 1', the reason being
that a true translation shows that the picture in the fragment is *not*
Abraham fastened on an altar, but an Egyptian man being prepared for
burial.  This casts serious doubt over Smith's veracity, and demonstrates
again Nibley's biased position in relation to his employer.

Edward Ashment, in _Sunstone, Dec. 1979_,  demonstrated Nibley's foolishness,
prompting Nibley to respond, 'I refuse to be held reponsible for anything
I wrote more than three years ago.'  Considering the book you reference as
a shining example of Nibley's credibility was published in 1975, it appears
Nibley abandoned it a short time later, after Ashment's criticism.

> For a complete analysis of Nibley's Egyptological background (he started
> studying Egyptian in 1927), see John Gee's review in REVIEW OF BOOKS ON
> THE BOOK OF MORMON, no. 4 (1992), pp. 96-98, which references favorable
> reviews of Nibley's work by non-Mormon Egyptologists, and Nibley being
> quoted by non-Mormon Egyptologists to support their arguments.

I find this extremely difficult to comprehend.  Joseph Smith 'translated'
76 words from *one* part of *one* egyptian word.  The word means 'water',
and Smith produced from this the text contained in 1:13-14.  Actualy the
entire compound Egyptian word is translated 'pool' or 'lake'.  Smith
extracted an *incredible* 135 words from this -- producing 1:11-14.

Smith also translated the one Egyptian word 'Khons' (the name of the
Egyptian moon-god) into an astounding 177 english words, yeilding
Abraham 1:16-19.  This would be like my claiming the phrase 'buenas dias'
can be translated into the entire story of 'Little Red Riding Hood'.
The abundandtly incompetant Nibley discussed this problem and explained
it away as 'The Egyptian in particular had an incurable weakness for
abbreviations, ...' _Improvement Era, Feb. 1968, pp. 14-15._

This is absolutly laughable.  Nibley is telling us the one word name of
the Egyptian moon-god 'Khons' is actually the abbreviated story:

  'And his voice was unto me: Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is
   Jehovah, and I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee,
   and to take thee away from thy father's house, and from all thy
   kins-folk, into a strange land which thou knowest not of;
[99 words deleted to save time]
   'As is was with Noah, so shall it be with thee; but through
   thy ministry my name shall be known in the earth forever, for
   I am thy God'
_Abraham 1:16-19_

Nibley has looked like a bafoon with all of his vacillating over the
Book of Abraham.  In an attempt to reason how Smith could distort
the egyptian language as he did, Nibley said 'Joseph Smith made no
secret of his falibilty and claimed to know no language but English.'
_BYU Studies, Winter, 1968, p.174_.  At this point Nibley ceases to
be acting foolishly, and begins to be dishonest.  Joseph Smith is
reported 'I can read all writing and all hieroglyphics...' _as qouted in
Saga of the Book of Abraham_, p.136.  Or, by the same source, 'The
prophet referred to his miraculous gift of understanding all
languages, ...'
_Figures of the past, as qouted in Among the Mormons, p.136._

Mark
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