From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers,alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Amway, Just the Facts please
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:03:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.bhsj#+g.noring
Followup-To: alt.business.multi-level
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

(Notice the follow-up to alt.business.multi-level.  This is where discussion
should take place for this topic.  That is the purpose of that group, to keep
misc.consumers clean from 'flame' wars about multi-level marketing, of which
Amway is one among several.)


In article mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen) writes:
>In article bf644@cleveland.freenet.edu (D.C. Chuang) writes:
>|> 
>|>    I hate to bring this topic up again, but this multi-level marketing
>|> thing is like a monster that can't be killed.  I've heard their sales
>|> pitch many times and once it was even self inflicted (attended a seminar
>|> or rally or whatever they call it) so I'm familiar with how they work.
>|>    What I wanted to know is the "real" story of the people working at the
>|> bottom, like "I try to sell these products door to door and make X
>|> amount of money in a week" or something to that effect.  The "official"
>|> line is always how wonderful it is and how rich you can become, but I'm
>|> sure we all know this talk doesn't reflect reality (at least for the
>|> majority).  So any stories, anecdotes, or comments would be appreciated,
>|> however no sales pitches please.  Thanks.

>If you can become rich with Amway, then you could probably do it with many
>other businesses.  It requires a lot of work, a good relationship with your
>neighbors and extended family, self discipline, and desire. 


Very true (except the good relationship with friends and family - since when
do your friends and family determine your financial future?  Do they pay your
bills?  One of my brothers does not like Amway.  Should I quit because he
doesn't like it?).  I'll admit it may get a little harder to get motivated if
you have a negative family, but you have to grow up sometime.

This paragaph brings up the point that you have to look at the bottom line of
any business, but the bottom line cannot only be income.  It must include
whether or not the income is residual (i.e., willable), inflation-proof, and
likely to continue into the foreseeable future.  In addition, one has to look
at the amount of free-time one develops (i.e., how much maintenance do you
have to do to maintain that income).  You also have to look at the time it
takes to achieve it, the up-front investment (i.e., the risk), whether you'll
need brick-and-mortar overhead, whether you'll need employees, and there's
probably a few other factors that I did not mention.

That is why I'll say this without hesitation:  *Strictly looking at MLM as a
business*, using hard-core business criteria, you will find that MLM is by far
the best business concept yet developed this century for the average person
to get involved with and develop significant income.  There is not a finer
business, bar none.  If anybody wants to argue with me on this, you better
be prepared, I've got a lot already written up on this. (BTW, in my signature
below, you will see a quote from John Sestina.  For over 20 years he looked at
20,000 business opportunities for clients.  When he saw the Amway business -
one of many good MLMs - his evaluation criteria ranked it far and above the
best business he had ever seen,"bar none" (his words).  Of course, he couldn't
pass up such a good opportunity, and he is now a Diamond in Amway.)

>Most people who sign up as Amway distributors, don't even distribute.  Just
>do the arithmetic.  If each distributor signs up 6 sub-distributors, etc.,
>then in just 11 levels, you would have over 300 million distributors.  That's
>everyone in the US, including new-borns and convalecent hospital residents.

What does this mathematical exercise prove, and what do you mean by 'don't
distribute'?

>Many, including me, have a problem with AMWAY because they sell the dream, not
>the products.  If you like the product at those inflated prices, sign up.
>It's a cheaper way to get them (still not competitive).  If you want to get
>rich evaluate other options as well.  Just don't focus on the few who did
>well.  Look at the average income of the business you are getting into.

With respect to the cost of the product line:  since you don't give actual
numbers proving your thesis that the product line is over-inflated, not
competitive, etc., then I won't give you any numbers that show that Amway
products are a great value, even at suggested retail.  I SELL the products -
to myself and to several customers.  The product line is outstanding, and I
am proud to represent the Amway line, as well as the other 500 manufacturers
and service providers.

With respect to the average income:  That is the worst criteria to use for
evaluating an MLM.  The real criteria is:  If I work it as they say I should,
will I achieve what they say I'll achieve?  I'll comment on this a few
paragraphs below.  (BTW, a lot of people get into MLM just to buy the products-
if you average their income in with the rest, you'll obviously get an
erroneous answer).

With respect to the dream:  the dream of most people in the business is to
develop a high 5 figure or low 6 figure residual (willable) income which will
require, once developed, only a few hours per week to maintain.  After all,
the motivation to do anything is the bottom line - what it will give you.  I
am not ashamed to say that we ask people what they want to accomplish AS A
RESULT OF building the business (aka dream).

When I went to the University to get my Ph.D. in Mechanical and Chemical
Engineering, I did so because I had strong feelings (a dream?) to make
substantial contributions in alternate energy research and development.  I
did not go through the pain of eight years of tough coursework just to sit in
my office and write proposals and to deal with all the political crap normally
associated with research and development.  You need a higher reason (dream)
to make any short-term sacrifice.

Likewise, when I became an Amway distributor, I didn't do so to get the thrill
of selling a box of soap to a neighbor.  I did so because of what this business
would give me if I successfully built it.  In fact, if you really want to know
what is the biggest flaw with MLM in general, it is that it is too easy to
walk away from.  Had I invested $100,000 in it, I wouldn't need a dream - I
would already have a ready-made reason to spur me on to success.  However, when
you invest a measly $100-$300, and you go out and get your head ripped off by
some nimrod who knows nothing about this business (yes, Mildred, such people
exist, just read Usenet), you really need a WHY to continue out there.  That
is why the emphasis of the dream is very important;  it's actually no more
than in any other profession - however, in our business, it's just more
visible and is a part of our program.

>Be sure to talk to people that have failed, as well as those that have
>succeeded.  Find out why.  How many of those 300 million distributors are
>getting wealthy?

Why talk to people who failed?  The only reason, I guess, is to ask them why
it failed for them.  With respect to MLM, people 'fail' because they fail
to work.  After three years of observing this crazy business, I have come to
one conclusion:  This business will work, IF you work it as those who have
succeeded recommend you work it.  In fact, I don't know of any other business
that can make this claim.  When you do talk to a person who 'failed' in MLM,
ask them how many people they shared the concept with.  If the answer is less
than 100, then you have the answer as to why they 'failed'.  As we teach in
this business, just show the plan, over and over and over and over and over
again, and when you get done showing the plan, then go out and show the plan
over and over and over and over and over again....  Get the point?  And I'll
be honest with you, unless you have a 'why', a 'dream', many people will find
it a lot more comfortable to stay home than to go through the pain of
consistently showing the plan week after week after week after week... 
(Another angle on why we emphasize the dream.)

>The problem with working for yourself is that you may find out you don't
>make a great boss.

If a person in MLM finds that they need a boss, they can just ask their
sponsor to tell them what to do.  After all, your sponsor is your slave - if
you want him/her to be your boss, you can choose that option.  As we also say,
work your sponsor to death, that's what they're there for:  to work for you,
not you for them.  At present, I have 23 people I've sponsored that I'm
working for - it's fun to have that many bosses telling me when to show a
plan for them.  :^)


Jon Noring

(p.s., any references I made to 'you' above is generic and plural, and is not
aimed at any one particular person).


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the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.