HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 5 Jan 1993 12:30:28 EST
From: <IO20905@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
 <C0Dy66.JrG@sunfish.usd.edu>

Chris's comments offered (as a sample refutation without flaming)
remind me of a haunting fogginess in my own thinking.

I'd like to see more information/discussion about the "sources,"
for lack of a better term, about the "aborigines."  I have not studied
such material, so in my haunting fogginess, I think the Arctic cultures
may have crossed on the Bering Landbridge, particularly the Eskimo,
while the other (and multitudinous) Indian group came up from the south.
I think Indians and Eskimos do not consider each other "kin."

The "eskimo," as I understood, was a pejorative term used by the
Algonquin, meaning "raw meat eaters."  The French learned to call such
people "les esquimaux," which in turn became the English Eskimo.
The Arctic cultures seemed, historically and still today, to be in
the minority, even among the Indians who had/have so much traffic with
Euro- Anglo- settlers of America.  The distinctive Arctic cultures
seem to be lost amid the Euro- Anglo- concept of "Native Americans."

Comments, reactions, historical information welcome.

Karen
io20905@maine.maine.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!vms.cis.pitt.edu!RASTROFF
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 16:56:00 GMT

Original-Sender: vms.cis.pitt.edu!RASTROFF

Peshe provided us with some very good and important questions about Kayapo
use of camcorders, and since I was the one who mentioned them, I thought I
would try to address some of the issues.  One, at least, is very relevent
to our discussions here on NatChat.
	
An anthropologist named Turner, who narrates two videos about the Kayapo
that I think were produced by BBC, had gone back to visit and study with
the Kayapo after something like 20 years.  He foiund that the Kayapo were
indeed deeply affected by the growing expoloitation of the rainforest, and
were having to deal with miners, farmers, government agencies, and the like
with the usual troubling results.  I believe the interest in the video use
came from the Kayapo themselves; Turner it seems then secured a grant that
got them equipment, training, and what they needed to set up their own archive.
Kayapo tribe members run it all. As for their
participation in economic systems, the Kayapo have used the camcorders for
their dealings with mining, farming, and governmnet concerns, and now in fact
are participants in such industries, to of course mixed emotions on the part
of others (and I imagine on the part of some Kayapo as well).  Thus the
Kayapo are now part owners of the mines, and own and run their own small
airline -- which they use to maintain face-to-face contact among
various Kayapo bands, as well as with those non-Indians they must deal with.
While this contact had led to obvious signs of acculturation to European
culture, it has also been claimed (by the Kayapo) that as they took control
of their own images, they returned to use of Kayapo symbols and some Kayapo
dress (or undress, which had led in the past to problems with the Brazilians).

Two points, in response to Peshe and to earlier chats on NatChat:
Turner felt responsibility to the Kayapo, in that he moved from the traditional
anthropological social scientific notion of looking at these people as an
object of study, to feeling he should contribute somehow according to Kayapo
recommendations.  Peshe also asked a very profound question: did the Kayapo
have to consider (and thus, as someone mentioned about Northern Exposure) and
adjust their images to consider the effect on the consumer of their videos.

The consumers of the videos are Kayapo themselves.  For the most part.  At
times they have made the videos for external use, but primarily they are
Kayapo produced for Kayapo use.

The Two videos I mentioned, one called the Kayapo, the other called The
Kayapo: Out of the Forest, are both made by Europeans.  One intriguing
difference is the Kayapo rejection of the European obscuring of the
process of making the cultural form -- that is, they do not pretend the
camera people are not part of the action.

Roberta
rastroff@pittvms.bitnet

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Edmund Joseph Ryan)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Question of Nativity
Date: 4 Jan 1993 21:20:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Greetings,

With all of the political correctness going on these days, it
finally forced "native-american" to replace "american-indian."
First of all, I don't think "american-indian" was appropriate
because it was a misnomer. "Native-American" while more
appropriate casts everyone who came later as permanent   
foreigners. If I'm not a descendant of those early Siberians
who crossed the Bering Strait, am I not a native American?
Isn't native sort of subjective term? Remember the end of
Ray Bradbury's "The Martian Chronicles"?              

I propose to replace "Native-American" with 
"Siberian-American" or something more descriptive and 
less disparaging of the later immigrants from Europe, 
Africa, and Asia. 

Virtually,

Edmund J. Ryan
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Peshewegunzh <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>
Subject: Re: American Indians in Clinton cabinet?
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:04:40 GMT

Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

>
> Original-Sender: prism.gatech.edu!kt6
>
>         I think it is sad that a position is filled based on sex or
> race as opposed to performance and capability.  I believe Native Americans
> are human beings and have all the rights available to them as everyone
> else.  I believe that positions should be filled on the basis of
> qualifications and past achievements not because the position has to
> represent a diverse America.

Kevin is certainly right that positions should be filled not on the basis
of sex or nationality. It would be nice that they be filled by persons
with a strong sense of compassion combined with common sense, who are
highly moral. That would save us from further exploitation.

However, although it is nice to now be recognized as a human being, that we
have the same protection afforded to our persons, property and our
nations has never been true, else the racist concept of Manifest Destiny
would not have resulted in the United States existing as it now does, nor
our "domestic dependent nations" within its borders have become Third World
dependencies.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peshewegunzh

peshe%mamia.UUCP@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia.UUCP!peshe
peshe@mamia.UUCP
mthvax!mamia!peshe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: "G. Philippe Menos" <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!pucc.Princeton.EDU!GPMENOS>
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:17:09 GMT

Original-Sender: "G. Philippe Menos" <pucc.Princeton.EDU!GPMENOS>

On Fri, 1 Jan 1993 11:37:35 -0800 <NativeNet@gnosys.svle.ma.us> said:
>Original-Sender: Marianne Dugan <OREGON.UOREGON.EDU!MDUGAN>
>
>Peshewegunzh wrote:
>>
>>When one walks through the forest, one is surrounded by spirit on all sides.
>>A TV program about the forest, however, will have none of the spirit
>>present, only a series of unliving still photographic images technologically
>>sequenced.
>

And, who are you to say what will have spirit and what will not?  Ignoring,
for the moment the issue that nothing is intrinsically good or evil, apart
from the human beings --their ethics and their intentions-- your categorical
statements seem to do exactly what you decry in visual technology.  In other
words, your statement imposes your own rather narrow limits on where another
human being may find spirit with a tyranny that is equal to any propoganda
film.

It is not technology that is evil, but only the self-serving and/or uncritical
thinking that is sometimes put behind it.

G. Philippe Menos

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Patrick Maun <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>
Subject: RE: Northern Exposure
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 14:45:22 GMT

Original-Sender: Patrick Maun <AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>

My system doesn't support nifty reply functions, so fill in the following
with past replies. Use your imagination.  :-)


      The thing to do when faced with 13 channels ("of shit" as Pink Floyd
said), is to do something about it. Of course ignoring it is one way,
changing it is another. That is the great thing about public access TV.
It is there for the using. Make TV that makes a difference! I know I have
been confusing TV and video in my last couple of postings, but I feel that
the two are basically interexchangable. Televison is (for me at least) just
one way of presenting video.

Television is totlitarian and non-interactive (although there are many new
developments in interactive TV going on, I don't think this is something
that has an effect on our discussion though). But I think when you bring
TV "back to the people" so to say (by this I mean down scaling TV to
commuinity size, broadcasting not just entertainment, but also information
that has a *real* effect on the viewers) TV will begin to take on an inter-
active form. In other words, people will view something that affects them
and can then in turn broadcast a "reply" to this. It is all just a matter
of getting equipment to people. The same way we need to get other tools
such as the network spread around and not just locked up in schools and
the business sector.

Patrick Maun

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!m.CC.UTAH.EDU!darrell.roberts
Subject: RE: Northern Exposure
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:53:26 GMT

Original-Sender: m.CC.UTAH.EDU!darrell.roberts

>Original-Sender: Patrick Maun <AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>
>
>      The thing to do when faced with 13 channels ("of shit" as Pink Floyd
>said), is to do something about it. Of course ignoring it is one way,
>changing it is another. That is the great thing about public access TV.
>It is there for the using. Make TV that makes a difference!

Usually when watching the "Tele", when faced with 13, 36 (cable) or
100+ (satellite) channels of "shit", I stop my couch potato exercises,
moan and groan, then get off my brown ass and turn it off!...........
after my recent upgrade, now I stop my remote control finger exercises,
moan and groan, then extend my forefinger and depress the power button!


***********************************************************************

                    darrell.roberts@m.cc.utah.edu

***********************************************************************


Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!tamvm1.tamu.edu!HWS.bitnet!HWS1!MIHALYI
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 18:50:00 GMT

Original-Sender: HWS.bitnet!HWS1!MIHALYI

> Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

> Certainly, judicious use of video
> (not TV) in small doses may be useful. Surrender of will and self into a
> consuming entertainment culture is not.


> With television, we are being programmed.

I think that what most people here are arguing is that some of us feel that we
still are capable of not surrendering will and self because we watch certain
programs on TV.  Yes, if I look to television's situation comedies and such for
an explanation of the world, I am in trouble.  But there are other programs on
TV that real people involved in real situations produce to INFORM others, not
PROGRAM others.  Patrick Maun talks about public access channels.  On our
cable, we now get Finger Lakes TV, a public access channel which carries
something called Deep Dish TV (what is that, Patrick?).  One program was about
the Hopi and Navajo produced by the Hopi, I believe.  That program was far
better than anything done on PBS.  Another example: WXXI TV in Rochester NY
had a rountable discussion on the Indian land claims in New York State.  At the
table were Seneca, Mohawk and Cayuga people as well as state representatives
and even someone from federal govt (by satellite, I guess). The house I live in
sits on land belonging to the Cayuga.  In my REAL life, I had already had
contact with my county legislator who supplied me with info on the status of
the case and I had written to the Cayuga.  This program ADDED to my under-
standing because I got to hear living people talk about this issue.  I wrote
down the names of the people as I watched the program, and since then, I have
written to one and spoken on the phone to another.  So, I can respond to what
I see on the TV, just as I respond to you here, it just takes longer.

It sounds as if you haven't watched TV in quite a while.  Maybe you would
consider giving it another try, even if only public access channel?

One last question, Peshewegunzh.  You said in an earlier post that you are
an actor.  Is it from your work as an actor that you have formed such strong
opinions about television?

        Mary Mihalyi

        mihalyi @ hws.bitnet
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: 7 Jan 1993 06:36 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Siberian American?

Come on....get real!







Actually if I had my choice we would get rid of all this XXXXX-American
crap.  All it serves is to divide us at a time when the world is being
ripped in two.

All races, creeds, and colors have their purpose in the world, why else
would they exist?  In my "household" we have people of all stripes.  In
this household we have a white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, german-ancestry,
man walking the path with the aid of our Native American "brother".
And this brother and I (the pagan) exchange ideas of spirituality and
pathways, that we might learn and understand each other and the world.

Is this not a better way?

Blessed Be,
Tammy

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Irena Sumi <uni-lj.si!irena.sumi>
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:42:21 GMT

Original-Sender: Irena Sumi <uni-lj.si!irena.sumi>

I believe it was some two years ago that a similar discussion was on
in this list. Since it was going on at the time I joined in, and have
given it some thought at the time, perhaps I should now share my view
with the listers.

While I would not go into the somewhat redundant discussion about
what Native Americans should be (generically) called (and where they "really"
came from; issues of this sort are a constant in the fate of almost any
minortiy and are really of racist inspiration in one way or another), I think
that it is about time the Natives would begin to systematically encourage
the use of *real* names of various Native nations and groups. Why
complying with Apaches, Cheyennes, Iroquois, Navajos, Sioux... that
are the heritage of europocentric past and that most people worldwide associate
with Cooperian fiction and Holywood stereotypes?

I simply think that peoples should be referred to by the name they themselves
use - and that by insisting on Native names in public life, Native Americans
could bring about more than just a symbolic change in Nonative
attitudes towards the Natives.

Best greetings,

Irena Sumi
Institute of Ethnic Studies
Ljubljana-Slovenia
irena.sumi@uni-lj.si

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: "LILA WITCO..........242-9609" <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!BOOTES.UNM.EDU!NAVAJO>
Subject: Re: AI in Clinton cabinet?
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:30:00 GMT

Original-Sender: "LILA WITCO..........242-9609" <BOOTES.UNM.EDU!NAVAJO>

[responding to the question "Are there any American Indians on
Clinton's proposed Cabinet?"--mkk]

GOOD Question.  Were any AI even considered?  And, if so, for what
position?  Land Management?  Environment?  Health?  My experience tells
me that anywhere east of the Miss, non-Indian people believe that
multicultural or valuing diversity or any of the other labels in fashion
generally mean black & white, sometimes it includes Hispanics; almost
never is there any mention of American Indians generically and practically
never is there any mention of Dine or Oglala or Ojibwa or... y'know
whatImean?!

M. Cramer
Div. C. Innovative Programs
College of Education
University of New Mexico
Albq., NM  87131

IN%"navajo@unmb.unm.edu"

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)
Subject: Re:  American Indians in Clinton cabinet?
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 09:16:05 GMT

Original-Sender: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)

Dana Numkena asks if there is an American Indian in Clinton's cabinet?

Dana:  Elizabeth Pollard sent us all Clinton's email address just a couple of
weeks ago.  Use it for just such a request.

Let us not be a people who whines ... without action.  Make that negative
energy productive!

Lao Tse had a very good verse to cover just such an occasion, but citing it
might stir those Maoists to thinking I would support them ...

lyn

^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^
"We did not weave the web of life.  We   | Lyn Dearborn
are merely a strand in it.  Whatever     | Naturalist/Person
we do to the web, we do to ourselves"    | dearborn@anchor.esd.sgi.com
		Chief Seattle 1854				 | 415/ 321-1075
^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^




Newsgroups: alt.native
From: mlr21@cas.org (Mary Lee Raines)
Subject: Not Thunderheart--the other one
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:51:04 GMT

Hi

Within the last month or so there was some discussion about the movie
Thunderheart and another movie.  It was stated that
Thunderheart was a fictionalized account while the other movie
was a much more accurate account about Leonard Peltier.  What
was the name of the other movie?  (Sorry, I think I'm getting
senile.)

Thanks,

Mary Lee
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Peshewegunzh <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:53:27 GMT

Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

Besides being incorrect, genetically and otherwise, this is an
attempt to diminish us as merely another facet of the new European
order rather than being the rightful owners and occupants of this
continent. Send this idea back to the Hell it must have come from.

American Indians are  *not* "Siberian-Americans". Get real. Learn
some history (if it still has any meaning in academia).
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peshewegunzh

peshe%mamia.UUCP@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia.UUCP!peshe
peshe@mamia.UUCP
mthvax!mamia!peshe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)
Subject: RE: Northern Exposure
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 10:28:56 GMT

Original-Sender: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)

Speaking of Northern Exposure .... did anyone see this week's program?
Can someone tell me why Marilyn was being "honored" at the PowWow-type
gathering?  I was led to believe it was an episode I had seen, so I
didn't tape it ... but I came in the room just as "Marilyn Whirlwind"
was announced and saw her dancing ... she's quite lovely, in the
"right environment".

lyn

^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^
"We did not weave the web of life.  We   | Lyn Dearborn
are merely a strand in it.  Whatever     | Naturalist/Person
we do to the web, we do to ourselves"    | dearborn@anchor.esd.sgi.com
		Chief Seattle 1854				 | 415/ 321-1075
^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^





Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups
From: speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights)
Subject: Re: Proposed 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:54:24 GMT

fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer) writes:

>Mike> CHARTER: soc.culture.native is for the discussion of issues ...

>I'm still confused. Who is included in "native populations throughout
>the world"? Does this include white, germanic people in nothern
>Europe? Is this the place to discuss the effects of the events in the
>years 200-600 on the peoples of Europe, the nationalities, cultures,
>religions, and languages?

I think that there should be a sentence or two in the charter itself
that explains the problems of nomenclature we've been discussing and
what "native" means in the context of the group.  It seems that "native"
is the easiest word for the naming of the group, but the charter should
make it as clear as possible that surviving indigenous cultures of
the world are the main subject of discussion; it should in fact cover
all of the names we've been throwing around, like "aboriginal" and 
"first nation," etc.  What do you think?

Arlen
-- 
:-(-:-(-:-(-:-( speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu )-:-)-:-)-:-)-:
"Even now, we scarcely feel our hearts beat before they break in protest"
                                                         -Stanley Diamond
                                                                       --
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!prism.gatech.edu!kt6
Subject: Re: American Indians in Clinton cabinet?
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:55:53 GMT

Original-Sender: prism.gatech.edu!kt6

>Original-Sender: Dana Numkena <asuvm.inre.asu.edu!ASDMN>
>
>    Is there an American Indian in Clinton's cabinet.  I do recall
>that Clinton wanted a well diverse group of people in the cabinet that
>best represented America.  Oh well, I suppose American Indians are
>not that important, or maybe, not part of America.


        First, unfortunately I think that you can't representAmerica in 14
cabinet seats.

        Second, I think it is sad that a position is filled based on sex or
race as opposed to performance and capability.  I believe Native Americans
are human beings and have all the rights available to them as everyone
else.  I believe that positions should be filled on the basis of
qualifications and past achievements not because the position has to
represent a diverse America.
Kevin M. Torres  	       	       	(404) 853-9269
Research Engineer       	      	internet: kt6@prism.gatech.edu
Georgia Tech Research Institute 	       	       	
Centenial Research Building Room 493
Atlanta, Georgia 30332


Newsgroups: alt.native