From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:46:29 GMT

From article <14SEP199218003353@jetson.uh.edu>, by schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.):
> In article <1992Sep14.020325.710@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...
>>> In article <1992Sep13.215754.28594@msc.cornell.edu>, hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,) writes...
>>>>From the _Ithaca Journal_ sep 1, 92 without permission
>>[...]
>>>> 
>>>>"In situations where women typically are discriminated against," said
>>>>Heilman, "being associated with affirmative action makes it worse.  And
>>>>in situations where the women wouldn't be discriminated against, it
>>>>creates a problem."
[...]
>>No, its shows that AA fosters the attitudes its trying to compensate for,
>>even in places where attitudes otherwise would have been good.  So if you're
>>place of work would have been non-sexist, its not anymore if AA programs
>>begin.
> 
> =================================
> I disagree with your conclusion.  Since it is based on speculation,
> I will speculate as well.  I would say that it uncovered more subtle
> forms of misconceptions, misunderstandings and racism/sexism/homophobia/
> etc.
> =================================

Lets see.  '...And in situations where the women wouldn't be discriminated
against, it creates a problem.'

Seems clear to me, and not very speculative.

[...]
>> 
>>AA may be leveling the hiring field of some jobs (apparently it is 
>>already level in some, as in the first example job given).  However, 
>>it is also helping to tilt the field against in actual job performance.
> 
> ===========================
> Evidence please?

from the newspaper article:

   The stigma of affirmative action, said Roosevelt Thomas, president of
   the American Institute for Managing Diversity, is devastating not just
   to the individuals, but to corporations struggling to stay competitive.

   "When you place a stigma on somebody, you're saying you believe this
   individual has limited ability," said Thomas.  And that, he said, often
   becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy."

From the acticle I followed up on.

  From article <1992Sep12.040621.19970@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by
  rsanders@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (RRobert M Sanders):
  [...]
  > been male).  I was hired by a department as the token minority, to 
  > serve as the "role model for american students."  My experience 
  > was very depressing, as no one took me seriously as a scholar 
  > (since no non-native could ever know as much as a native), and hence 
  > trivialized my scholarly contributions to the department.  Most of 
  > my colleagues were very patronizing to me on the scholarly
  > level, while at the same time praising me as a role model for American
  > students.  When push came to shove the department decided to let me 
  > go early  because in their judgement my work was insignificant (since 
  > this decision was reached before my sixth year they were under no 
  > obligation to send my work out for peer review).  Thus when i see 

> 
> I disagree.  I haven't even seen a single example, let alone 
> evidence of a significant degree of "helping to tilt the field
> against an actual job performance."
> ================================

You don't think not being taken seriously would hurt your
work?

[...]
>> 
>>No, it means this technique is not solving the problem, and might
>>even be making it worse.  
> 
> Please offer something better.  I believe that history clearly shows
> that doing nothing has been unacceptable.

Please explain to me how dumping AA equates to doing nothing.  There
are numerous anti-discrimation laws on the books that have nothing to
do with AA, and as lawsuits have become more frequent most companies
have become quite wary of them.  This is a big difference from 30
years ago, when AA was first instituted and when you may have had an
arguement that no AA means 'nothing'.

SEH

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