From: mwasson@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael Wasson)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: soc.feminism (Lip Stick)
Date: 13 Sep 92 14:55:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.18vkpdINNpob
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

>Mik Bickis writes:
>
>> I don't pretend to speak for all men, but I personally think this is a
>> non-issue.  Whether or not a woman wears lipstick, or any other

Much of what you can say about lipstick (or make-up in general) you
could say about weight, body proportions, aging, etc. If you
consider:
1. The billions of dollars that go toward cosmetics
2. The incidence of (often life-threatening) eating disorders among women
3. The booming plastic surgery industry,
it becomes harder to see this as a non-issue. 

[...]
>> typical for North American men.  Personally, I think women look
>> better *without* make-up.  
>
>It's funny....I know a number of men who also say that they like the
>way women look without make-up.  But those same men still are
>attracted to heavily made-up models and actresses on TV or in
>magazines.  (In fact, wasn't it you that expressed an appreciation for
>"pin-ups"?)  This sends a contradictory message to women (who care
>what men think about the way they look).  What do you think about
>this?

There are really two threads here. One is what men (nobody seems to
be mentioning gay women) *really* find attractive. The other, which
seems to be getting lost, is the whole question of beauty standards
and body image in the first place. 

I'll start close to home: The women I'm attracted to have always been
larger than [this] society's norm for what's "attractive" ... I don't
have the slightest idea why (the *men* I'm attracted to are always
quite slim). 

I'm *not* attracted to TV and magazine models ... partly because they're 
2-D and about 6" tall :-) but also they're all *really skinny*. But then, 
so what? A lot of guys have been posting saying "no, really, women 
w/o make-up are beautiful." So what? That's not confronting the larger
issue of women needing men to validate their physical appearance.

Unless, of course, it's leading up to the notion that different
people find all sorts of different things to be attractive in other
people, so that diversity in appearance comes to be celebrated over
conformity, and to hell with what the adverts tell us. But I don't
see that happening. All I see is a lot of "fat chick" jokes on TV
and a lot of people buying into it.

>Hmmm.  I don't think your shaving analogy quite works.  There is a
>difference between trimming one's facial hair and adding completely
>unnatural substances to one's face.  I can't pinpoint it exactly, but
>I think this is a better analogy:

Yah. Partly it's that beards are often considered as attractive as 
clean-shaven. A better analogy is men who wear wigs, get hair
transplants, etc ... but that just bolsters the point. Where does
this culture get off telling men that losing their hair means losing
their masculinity? I think the only real difference here between
the genders is that for men the problem is less sweeping and often
more easily overcome. (But then, I don't really know.)

>(I would have brought up toupees, except that they are supposed to
>look "natural", and I assume you don't need a lot of them.)

So is make-up. The point is, it's *not* natural. 

>--Cindy Blank-Edelman
>  (A woman who wears no make-up, but whose husband has a (real) beard.)

--Mike
(A man who wears no make-up, but does shave :-) )

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