HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s9935328@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Deborah L. Zandell)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Keywords: Control, Education
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:03:40 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst


 
 
The greatest amount of hypocrisy in this country, I think, comes from
the debate over education and who controls your child's classroom.  
There's a lot of ILLITERACY in this country, it's one of our biggest 
problems.  

There are plenty of hypocrites out there who say that vocational
training is okay, and that the kids don't really need to learn to read 
and do arithmetic.  After all, the kids are just going to be janitors 
anyway.

That argument seems to hold, on the face of it.  But, many people who 
went to good schools themselves have never seen what I've seen by
visiting an urban school, in Champaign, Illinois.  There are kids in 
seventh and eigth grade classrooms who cannot read a word.  Others 
read at the first or second grade level, sounding out each letter, as 
they run their index finger across the page with their eyes right over
the word they are reading.  You've never seen such a helpless look as 
they have in their eyes!  They don't want you to read it to them, they
want to know how to do it themselves, and the system has failed them.

Who are these seventh and eigth graders?  They're the people who rioted
in L.A.  They're the people who keep the T.V. running 24 hours a day.  
They're the people catching AIDS and they're the people without jobs.

You have to believe in something, and I'll tell you, I believe (probably
based on my major, but also based on what I've seen) that Education
is the single biggest problem facing our nation today.  Who's having the
most abortions (and I am pro-choice with some misgivings)?  It's the
same people who have that helpless look in their eyes when you tell them
that a pamphlet says that abortion is wrong, because they couldn't read
the pamphlet to save their lives.  

Debbie.
s9935328@titan.ucc.umass.edu
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:28:38 GMT
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:

> One of the purposes of schools is to introduce kids to American
> culture and the cultures that have fed into it. Music is just
> as much a part of that culture as literature.

Now where in the world did you come up with that idea?  That's absurd and 
is EXACTLY why "Johnny" can't read!  We spend more money per pupil for 
lower and lower test scores because the money is ill-spent in trying to 
duplicate the family in a school setting.  It can't work and we're seeing 
the results of trying: idiots graduating from high school having to take 
_remedial_ classes in _college!_  When I was going through high school, 
the teachers always told me to "pay attention or you won't get into 
college" and I did (but never went anyway).  These days, it doesn't 
matter so long as you accumulate "credits" no matter where the credits 
come from.

Nice system - do well in music and physical education and you get to pass 
go and attend college to study business administration.  <sigh>

> And what does the Right propose to do when the family is not caring
> or loving?  Or when it's incomplete--maybe because the Right sent
> the father off to die in some war?

What the Left is trying to do is create a Utopia where there are no car 
accidents, there are no wars, every pregnancy is wanted and if something 
goes awry, SUE!  If you find yourself in jail, avoid responsibility by 
claiming abuse as a child.

We do not live in a perfect society.  Families will be split, idiot 
parents will fail in their parental responsibilities.  The best we can 
hope for is to minimize these circumstances before they occur by 
stigimitizing stupidity.

For my part, I believe the root of the problem is government trying to 
take the place of the family.  Family members need to be expected to lean 
on one another in trying times instead of leaning on the government.

                                - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Barry Shein:  Has he ANYTHING constructive to lend to debate?
Organization: The World
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 01:07:20 GMT


Mr Murphy's problem is that he wants a caring, compassionate and just
environment in which he can spout his decrying of caring,
compassionate and just environments.


--
        -Barry Shein

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From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Define 'family values'
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:44:00 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

warren@pws.ma30.bull.com (Warren Lavallee) writes:
>Dan Quayle is the most mis-understood person.  It's all because of the
>media.  Dan Quayle is a very godly man.  ...
>The media does what is "politically correct."  Christians can be stomped
>on and usually don't cause a fuss, but you step on the pro-deather's, they'd
>be picketing their studios.

I take it, then, that we agree on what 'family values' means to you
as a religious Christian?  Your posting didn't contain any counterpoints
to my argument as to what the phrase means, at least if you think about
it for a few moments.

Though I suppose for you the definition might be extended to include an
activist approach to procreation, namely, the introduction of new human
beings to this overcrowded, underfunded planet through breeding programs
(i.e. marriage) sanctioned by the Church.

For me, however, the term 'value' represents a moral choice of behavior
which benefits humanity in some way.  And frankly, we Americans don't
seem to share enough common values.

-rich
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 05:23:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.041402.22173@redsox.bsw.com> campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:

   Agreed, it'll never be possible to prove decisively the correlation.

I don't even think you'll manage to get results that offer any kind of
fairly convincing evidence, let alone "decisive proof".  This issue
will remain just another matter of opinion.
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: I'm in a gay mood!
Summary: There _is_ something wrong with homos - don't let 'em kid yu
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:50:44 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

> 	Should this crew gain more power it will be interesting to
> see how a further loss of rights to 25,000,000+ gays and lesbians in 
> this country will affect them... or if anyof the mainstream will care.

This ought to be lively!  Call me a glutton for punishment.

Gays and lesbians have more rights today than at any other time in history.
They won't be happy, however, until they cram their unnatural sexuality down
everyone else's throats.  I use the word "unnatural" with much deliberation.

This lifestyle should not have equal standing with other lifestyles.  The
distinction?  While it is good to teach your children that there is nothing
wrong with or to be feared from a racial minority, such is not the case with
this unnatural sexual preference minority.

I reject the "homophobic" label but proudly wear "homorepulsion."  I was
better able to cope with them when they stayed in their little closets - I
wish they'd go back and lock the door behind them.

                                      - - - Murph

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From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: In politics, why as why?
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:37:04 GMT
Followup-To: >

Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <1992Aug12.191347.5729@odi.com>, dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:
> The Bush administration, when it
> put the sanctions in place, said that they would be effective; then it
> changed its mind.  The CIA was also saying that they'd be effective.
> While, in retrospect, it looks now as if they really never would have
> been effective, that was not clear at the time.

The Bush administration immediately mobilized tens of thousands of troops
and sent them to Saudia Arabia. And he never said that economic
sanctions alone would cause withdrawl of invaders from Kuwait.

You are pretty good at coming up with quotes DLW, come up with
something that shows that the Bush administration said the
economic sanctions alone would get IRAQ out of Kuwait!

Now, compare the response to the invasion of Kuwait and threats
to Saudia Arabia, to the response of Truman to the invasion
of South Korea.

At the time a big deal was made over how our superior force
of 500 or so troops was going to hold off the invasion.
And it took months and months for Truman to negotiate his way
through things to get a force size up to the level of 
what we recently had in Desert Shield almost immediately.

Of course, eventually Korea turned into quite a conflagaration.
Kind of a modern revisiting of WW-I style trench warfare.

That and how Kennedy and LBJ handled Vietnam are
the legacy of what the Democratic party some how 
has to live-down.

-gjc

p.s. Can you name a rather significant war that the Republican Party
got us into? A war that makes Vietnam and Korea look like a cake walk?


Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: The World
	<1992Aug17.210014.28270@spdcc.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:34:16 GMT


>>Schools have plenty of time to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic,
>>even if you cut that time in HALF. 
>
>	This is simply not true, as evidenced by the decline of
>students performance in these areas over the last 30 years.

Do you really think it's time that's the problem?

I don't.

I think it's a combination of a bunch of things. Perhaps the worst is
the inability to communicate to kids, down to the depth of their
little hearts, that it's absolutely critical that they learn these
things.

You can't (easily) get past bad role models.

I've taught elementary school (ok, just for one year), and most kids
that couldn't read just didn't think it was important or worth
spending a minute on. And kids can be obstinate if, for example, their
older siblings convinced them that all this school stuff is stupid and
worthless.

Very hard to get past that sort of thing.

I'm not even sure TV is really a problem. Oh, too much TV is a
problem.  But for some kids their home lives are so limited and
limiting and brainless that TV is actually one way to broaden their
horizons. At least on TV people seem to be able to read and letters
flash up for you to read and people seem to know all these things and
maybe knowing how to open a can of beans is not all you need to get
along in life.


--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:21:27 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>I like llamas.  My favorite newsgroups are alt.sex.gerbils.duct-tape and
>alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat.  I demand the same rights as the homos.
>
>Should I have them?

So long as you don't hurt anyone who cares what you're into.

Do you mean that therefore you SHOULDN'T be allowed to rent an
apartment for the mere transfer of money?

Who do you want to be in charge of all this Murph? Who's to make
the rules?

Don't say *you*, because as you may have discovered in life, YOU DON'T
MAKE THE RULES. That's why you're so unhappy.

So when the next bum comes along and says ``The Irish, they're as bad
as homos, a bunch of drunken terrorists'' ya gonna be able to tell
them they don't have a right to single YOU out?

Gee, it's only been 50 years since the ``no irish need apply'', ya'd
think y'da learned.


--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Acceptable medical care (was Re: Sex ed in school)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:20:59 GMT

tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:

>In article <1992Aug18.225439.23955@odi.com>, dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:
>> As both the standards and the price of "adequate medical care" go up,
>> should only wealthier and wealthier people be considered suitable
>> people to have children?

>Do I understand you to say that as medical care gets better, a 
>decreasing percentage of the population gets what is considered
>"acceptable care"? In spite of the fact that the care available
>at any particular level has gotten better?

>I suppose the law of increased expectations applies  . . .
>-- 
>         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
>         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
>Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.


Well... the cost of medical care has gone up much more than the cost
of living and the income levels.

Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: The World
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 00:49:40 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>Music is also a Very Nice Thing.  So's home beer brewing.
>That doesn't mean that either should be taught in school at the expense 
>of reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

So we don't end up with more dimwits like yourself who apparently can
read and write but haven't the foggiest idea why they do so.

You are entirely without merit Mr Murphy, and completely beyond hope.

Thank you for playing.



--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: insert anything here
Distribution: ne
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:18:10 GMT

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>I think one thing that seems to disturb Americans as they learn about
>the world is that virtually all of it is chock full of horrible,
>systematic and institutionalized discrimination, nation by nation.

>In fact, about the only thing that can be said for the US's versions
>are that in general, when pointed out, we tend to agree that they're
>wrong and embarrassing (whether we are willing to lift a finger to fix
>it is quite another question.) In most other countries, if you asked
>the average person, they would not see anything that needs to be
>fixed.

	You haven't been paying attention to the Republican
National Convention have you...?  (no smiley).

	Should this crew gain more power it will be interesting to
see how a further loss of rights to 25,000,000+ gays and lesbians in 
this country will affect them... or if anyof the mainstream will care.

	Then again it's not like we haven't been here before.
[What's your preference?  Gas, Fire, Bullet, Poison, or today's
special: Impaling?]

BBC
From: tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Acceptable medical care (was Re: Sex ed in school)
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:30:52 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Aug18.225439.23955@odi.com>, dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:
> As both the standards and the price of "adequate medical care" go up,
> should only wealthier and wealthier people be considered suitable
> people to have children?

Do I understand you to say that as medical care gets better, a 
decreasing percentage of the population gets what is considered
"acceptable care"? In spite of the fact that the care available
at any particular level has gotten better?

I suppose the law of increased expectations applies  . . .
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Distribution: ne
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 22:19:41 GMT

In article <Bt813B.E25@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:


   You really should research your facts better. 

				   If you did your research, you would
   find that there are a number of countries (including the 2 that I have
   discussed) that have codified discrimination. I can not supply by myself
   the missing knowlege. 

In other words you don't know what you're talking about.  Maybe you
should research your own facts before you tell others to do so.

								    the
   Koreans (some of them forced labor, some of them there for generations
   but still 2nd class NON-citizens) who were in Nagasaki and Hiroshima
   were not given the same medical care and were not given the same
   compensation as the Japanese who were injured. 

Japanese-American in the United States, who were citizens, were put
into concentration camps during the war, too.  Ethnic groups have been
mistreated everywhere from time to time.  You can come up with lots of
examples, and stupidly conclude that everyone is just as bad as
everyone else -- everything's equal.  However, what was going on in
South Africa is not the same thing as what was going in in Japan and
in the U.S., and it is possible to make judgements, weigh factors, and
come to reasonable conclusions about what is most reprehensible.  Perhaps
you are too obtuse to be able to distinguish more than one bit of resolution
("some discrimination" / "no discrimination") but not everyone else is.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: The World
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 00:57:37 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>If the kid can't take care of the kid and the family isn't helping, 
>that's child abuse.  We're going to take the baby away from the kid and 
>lock her up for child abuse.  End of story.  Life's a bitch.
>
>"Murph, you cold bastard, how could you be so heartless?"
>
>Money, m'man, money.

Murph, I don't care about you.

I don't care about your money.

I don't care about your sense of justice or injustice.

Just like you don't care about anyone else's.

So just shut up and go away and learn to eat your own philosophy.

Life's a bitch, to quote yourself. Stop whining, it's pathetic, such
projections of impotence in public, blech, no shame.


--
        -Barry Shein

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From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 15 Aug 92 15:10:38 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
> >
> >We do not live in a perfect society.  Families will be split, idiot 
> >parents will fail in their parental responsibilities.  The best we can 
> >hope for is to minimize these circumstances before they occur by 
> >stigimitizing stupidity.
> 
> Your first statement here of course doens't result in the second

Oh?  When society allows for people to be accountable for their actions, 
stupidity will quickly be minimized.

In my view, let the chips fall where they may with an ear-splitting 
clatter!  You're a 16 year old kid having a kid?  You don't get to go 
party with your friends, you don't finish your education, maybe your kid 
dies.  You are DOOMED to a life of misery and that's a real shame.

Yes, it's a shame but it isn't helped any by fostering an environment 
that makes it easier to get through life for that 16 year old kid.  If 
they have a family to lean on - EXCELLENT.  If not, they are DOOMED to a 
life of failure and THAT cold, hard FACT OF LIFE will do more to make 
sure that other 16 year old kids avoid those circumstances than any 
amount of condoms and sex education in school.

Oh, it goes on and on.  You're going to say, "Murph, there she is: the 
kid with the kid.  Whatcha gonna do NOW?"

If the kid can't take care of the kid and the family isn't helping, 
that's child abuse.  We're going to take the baby away from the kid and 
lock her up for child abuse.  End of story.  Life's a bitch.

"Murph, you cold bastard, how could you be so heartless?"

Money, m'man, money.  We all agree that we can't afford to do everything 
we'd like to.  Hell, I'd like a Cadillac but I can't afford it.  If I 
could afford to have a heart, I'd order up a half-dozen but I can't.  I 
can only say, enough with the kids already!  No more will we make it easy 
on kids having kids by providing for them.  To do so will only make 
babies look like so many cute dolls for under-age mothers who think that 
there is no responsibility or consequence for conceiving.

                                        - - - Murph

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