HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:10:58 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

In article <1992Dec13.102103.13683@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>Regarding Ulick Stafford's comments on Cromwell, I also
>remember the Ladybird books being quite filledwith praise for
>Cromwell. My impression of Cromwell from modern historiography
>was that he was feared by everyone and loved by few. To this day, I
>have to ask whether those children's books were typical of English
>attitude, or what? As I've said, most historians, left or right,
>view Cromwell as an intolerant dictator.
>
The Ladybird books reflect the "Whig interpretation" of
history, the traditional view of history up till a few decades
ago, in which everything is sanitised to suggest it was an
inevtitable step in the path to progress. The well-known satire
of this approach "1066 and all that" summarises Cromwell as
"right but repulsive" and Charles I as "wrong but romantic".
In fact this approach is now generally mocked as the very
oposite of "political correctness".

Cromwell is admired by some (e.g. Michael Foot, a former
leader of the Labour Party) for opposing the "divine right of
kings" and allowing religious freedm (except for Catholics).
The defence of the then opposition to Catholicism, leading to
the brutal repression in Ireland, was that if it were ever to
be imposed in Britain it would bring in Spanish inquisition
style oppression.

Matthew Huntbach
From: smaill@aisb.ed.ac.uk (Alan Smaill)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Sovereignty...
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:13:57 GMT
	<1992Dec10.105013.3777@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
	<1992Dec10.143736.5674@news.nd.edu>
Organization: DAI, University of Edinburgh

In article <1992Dec10.143736.5674@news.nd.edu> ulick@bernini.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:


   I am convinced the British government
   is conntent ewith the Status Quo.  It has a live training ground for
   troops, and is happy enough staging bullshit talks that have no 
   chance of succeeding because there is no declared consequence of them
   not.  It is about time, if they are serious about getting troops out,
   that they declared that unless they can negotiate more suitable terms
   with the other parties involved, Northern Irland will be ruled on a 
   transitory basis by a body made up of the UK govt., Irish gov, and 
   representatives of parties there.  I.e. Wesatminster rule will end and
   Stormont will not return as such, and if they don't negotiate they'll
   be disenfranchised.  I.e. get rid of that distructive guarantee.

Personally I think some such medium term arrangement is the only
way forward in NI.  However, just laying down terms to the majority of
the population is the sort of behaviour that Ulick might well characterise
as typical of the British imperial state in another context.  
Do you despair of gaining the consent of the unionists to a united
Ireland, and if so why?



--
Alan Smaill,                       JANET: A.Smaill@uk.ac.ed             
Department of Artificial           ARPA:  A.Smaill%uk.ac.ed@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
       Intelligence,               UUCP:  ...!uknet!ed.ac.uk!A.Smaill
Edinburgh University.
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland Demands Democracy!
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:22:13 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:

>In article <BzAxv7.G2F@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>   Yes it was, it got a mention on the 6 o'clock news and News at Ten. They
>   also gave the figures at much less than 25,000. I think they said 5,000.

>Other parts of the BBC repeatedly reported 25,000.  The police estimated
>between 15,000 and 20,000; if your 6 o'clock News really did say 5,000 they
>were either lying or wildly wrong.  Perhaps they or you confused it with one
>of the other half dozen or so protests that took place during the summit.

Ok, so it was on BBC news. I did say I THOUGHT they said 5,000 - maybe it was
15,000 and I misheard.

Dave
--
From: sidw@access.isc-br.com (Sid Wade)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is sago?
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:33:17 GMT
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, Spokane, WA

In article <1992Dec16.182205.4812@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) writes:
>>
>>I have a cookbook called "Recipes from the Orkney Islands" published
>>in 1978.  One of the recipes for a tomato soup calls for something
>>called sago.  I've never heard of it.  Can someone help?
>
>Though my dictionary says otherwise, I've always heard
>it's the same thing as semolina...
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: syswtr@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
Subject: Re: Scots Wha Hae lyrics
Organization: Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Iowa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:06:08 GMT

In article <CALUM.92Dec18154543@ivy.clu.cf.ac.uk>, calum@ivy.clu.cf.ac.uk (Calum Gordon) writes:
> 
> Other Scottish tunes: 
> 
> "Flowers o' the forest" - a lament on Flodden but without words, I believe.

  Ohh. now isn't that goin' to go over well when played like a reel at 
some international event... :-)

  Willy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:30:51 EST

In article <katherim.724455687@sfu.ca> katherim@fraser.sfu.ca (Katherine Merle Mason) writes:
>crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>
>>Actually, considering when they were claimed by England, virtually
>>all these countries, with the exception of the far Eastern/Pacific
>>dominions, had an Elizabeth I, including Canada and everything in the
>>Western hemisphere...except Jamaica and Belize, I believe.
>
>>Chris the Smartass Imperial Historian
>>`
>
>Actually actually, Canada never had an Elizabeth I.  Although Newfoundland
>would have been under English posession during her reign, it didn't become
>part of Canada until 1949, a wee bit after she passed on.  It was
>in 1763 by the Treaty of Paris, and after her death in 1603 that Canada
>(ie the St. Lawrence valley and the rest of the maritimes) became a English
>colony and not New France. :-).
>
>Katherine Merle Mason the Canadian Imperial Historian
>Ne Oublie....

Ah, but you forget one thing: Elizabeth was Queen of France at the time.



Or so she claimed. Actually, all English monarchs claimed to be the
legitimate successors to Henry V and everything he ruled over--one 
of these being France. Henry was acknowledged King of France in the
Treaty of Troyes in 1420. After that every English monarch until 1763
claimed France as their kingdom. The proclamations of James I, for
example, read "In the name of James, King of England, Ireland, 
Scotland and France..."

Is this thread getting weird or what????

Chris
The Smartass Imperial Historian
From: cabr53@ccsun.strath.ac.uk ("R.A.McPheat")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland Demands Democracy!
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:53:04 GMT
Organization: University of Strathclyde

In article <1992Dec16.095239.24512@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>
>I don't recall Scots caring much about south-east England being
>"disenfranchised" when it elected nearly all Conservative
>MPs, but had a Labour government thanks to the large number of
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Scottish Labour MPs. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The poor english being forced to suffer a labour government
because of the large number of Scottish Labour MPs is a
tory myth. The massive outnumbering of Scottish tory M's by
Scottish Labour MPs has come about since 1979. Prior to the
1979 election there was never much more than 20 more labour
than tory Scottish MPs, certainly much less than the ~550
english elected MPs
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8233 soc.culture.british:17652
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Summary: It is a sad truth
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:30:07 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1992Dec8.093455.29258@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>In article <27863@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:

>>It is questionable whether one can extrapolate from the blitz to
>>terrorism, but still, isn't it likely that the IRA bombing campaigns in
>>Britain are tactically counterproductive?

>The hatred, bitterness and closed-mindedness inspired by the
>IRA among the leftish liberalish readers of usenet in Britain
>is absolutely nothing compared to the what it inspires among
>the Unionists in Northern Ireland, who are the people who need
>to be persuaded of the benefits of a united Ireland.

I do not necessarily want to disagree with Dr. Huntbach, but during the
entire period that the English and the Protestants had a chance to do
something about NI without IRA violence they did nothing. From independence
to the start of the IRA's campaign of violence not one single adavance was
made in the status of the Catholic population. Since then look at how things
have improved! At least Catholics aren't likely to be beaten or shot for
speaking their minds. Some forms of proportional representation have come
in, the local government system is fairer, there is less discrimination in
business employment and in government spending. Things aren't perfect but
they have improved and they only have improved because the IRA have being
killing people and the British want to wear away their support base. Look
at the AngloIrish agreement - it would never have happened if not for the
IRA. This is not to say that the violence is justified or good, but it is
true that nothing would have changed if the Catholics hadn't demanded it
(which in turn lead to Prod violence which lead to the PIRA which brings
us up to today). Besides which the IRA's campaign has almost won, noone
in Britain seriously wants to keep NI, they just can't think of a face
saving way of cutting and running. Sad but true.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
From: jxm@engin.umich.edu (John Murray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Satellite view of Ireland
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:10:07 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <28092@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>I was looking thru Liam de Paor's "Portrait of Ireland" (St Martin's
>Pr, 85) & there's a beautiful satellite view of Ireland in one of the
>first few pages.  Uncredited, unlike the other photo plates.  Is
>anyone familiar with the picture in this book?  How about any pointers
>to other satellite/space pictures of Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, &c?
 
I've seen an 'Ireland From Space' poster floating around Dublin, made from
Landsat data, I think. The people who handle Landsat in Ireland are connected
to UCD, I believe. Spot satellite imaging data has much higher resolution and 
should also be fairly easily available (though not in the US perhaps(?)).
Environmental Resource Analysis at Trinity College Dublin are the Irish
contacts. Most Soviet imaging satellite data used to be available through 
an agency in New York, but heaven knows what's happened to it recently! 
Check the New York Times index - I seem to recall an artice on the subject
which included the address about two years ago. 
 
John Murray
Univ. of Michigan
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots Wha Hae lyrics
Date: 17 Dec 92 10:42:41 GMT
Organization: Dundee University

Did someone really write that Scot's Wha Hae is sexist? come orf it!
Also - getting rid of tyrants is a bloody business, as is fighting
for liberty - see the American Civil War, The Long March etc..
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 21:06:43 EST

In article <BzFBq6.BM5@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
>
>Speaking of heraldry...
>
>What's that flag you see often flying over Windsor
>Castle that has the three red English lions in two 
>quarters and the Irish Harp in at least one quarter?
>Then there's Henry V's coat of arms - the lions on 
>two quarters and gold fleur-de-lis on blue on the 
>other two quarters?
>

I believe that is the flag of the Royal Coat of Arms--the arms of the
Monarch of the United Kingdom.

Chris
From: calum@ivy.clu.cf.ac.uk (Calum Gordon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: The Fairy Flag
Date: 17 Dec 92 11:29:04 GMT
Reply-To: Calum Gordon <calum@clu.cf.ac.uk>
Organization: Computational Linguistics Unit, Univ of Wales College of Cardiff
Posting-Software: GNUS: NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs

In article <1gkurnINNc2c@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) writes:

>  My father was from Skye and used to talk about a Fairy Flag that 
>  was in Dunvegan Castle.  He claimed the flag was given to the MacLeods
>  and that it was to waved in time of deep trouble and that the battle
>  would be won by whoever had the flag.  He went on to say it had been
>  waved twice but he didn't say when and that it could be used only
>  once more and then it would disappear.
>  
>  He was very superstitious and believed all this.  I don't know any
>  more about it. Is there anyone out there who does?

Yes, what you say largely corresponds with the popular legend. The
flag is on display in Dunvegan (Dhunbheagan?) castle, Isle of Skye,
the family home of the clan MacLeod. I'm not sure what's meant to
happen if it's waved for a third time.

There's a song by Moira Kerr on the soundtrack to the TV series "Where
Eagles Fly" (an aerial journey round the Highlands that was made by
Hamish MacInnes and has some breathtaking photography) called
"Cuillen". It contains the lines:

Cuillen, Cuillen
Dark Cuillen of Skye

How proud and impressive
The Cuillen of Skye
Magical and misty
Heavenly and high

At Dunvegan Castle, the home of MacLeod
It is said when the Fairy Flag flies
Silver herring return to the lochs with the tide
And victory will follow the MacLeod battle cry.

Cuillen..., etc.

--
** Calum Gordon <calum@clu.cf.ac.uk>      ** TEL: +44-222-874000-x5310 **
** Computational Linguistics Unit (CLU)   ** FAX: +44-222-874293       **
** University of Wales College of Cardiff ** JAN: <calum@uk.ac.cf.clu> **
** ----- "People with (a) CLU use Suns; CLUless people use Macs" ----- **
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: What is sago?
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:00:10 GMT

From article <1992Dec16.211542.15890@PacBell.COM>, by rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams):
>> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker) writes:
>>> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>>>> esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) writes:
> 
>>>>I have a cookbook called "Recipes from the Orkney Islands" published
>>>>in 1978.  One of the recipes for a tomato soup calls for something
>>>>called sago.  I've never heard of it.  Can someone help?
>>> 
>>> Though my dictionary says otherwise, I've always heard
>>> it's the same thing as semolina...
>>
>>Sago is the suff with the "balls" in it, while semolina is much
>>smoother.
> 
> Tapioca is the stuff with the balls in it.  Sago is smooth,
> just like semolina!
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your right, its been a long time since I had either.

									GW

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: British interference in U.S. elections
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:54:12 GMT

In article <bob1.724087813@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
>In <1992Dec9.154539.14942@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>
>>From article <1992Dec8.194656.26245@cas.org>, by jac54@cas.org ():
>>> In article <1992Dec8.160940.28176@e2big.mko.dec.com> holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:
>>>>
>>>>In article <1992Dec8.153121.8340@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>>>>|>>
>>>>|>>               British searched for files on Clinton
>>>>|>>                 Boston Sunday Globe (12/6/92)
>>>>|>>                  -Washington Post
>>>>|>>
>>>>|>>
>>>>|>>  [lots of stuff about British looking through files etc]
>>>>|>
>>>>|>I see no big deal about this. This is what I would expect from the State (
>>>>|>be it British or US). The CIA, I am sure, quite happily search out
>>>>|>files about left-wing prominent people in the UK, and would let it be
>>>>|>leeked to the press.
>
>Only to the Welsh press, I presume?
>
>Bob.
>
	Actually, I've always admired the way the Afghans have
	been able to interesting culinary things with leeks (seriously
	folks).  I'll post a couple of recipes on demand.

	Alec
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: British interference in U.S. elections
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:53:50 GMT

From article <1992Dec14.172655.550@news.nd.edu>, by ulick@michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford):
> In article <1992Dec14.162300.28620@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>>
>>Even this might be by-passed by appealling to the jury. Did a couple of
>>juries in the recent past acquit (sp?) someone despite the fact that the
>>judge advised them to convict?
> 
> Under basic Common Law that is the basis of UK and US systems, jurors are
> supposed to find not just on the basis of the law, but should also judge the
> law based on their conscience.  Judges like telling juries how to find but
> what they are doing is wrong.  For instance if I was to be on a jury
> for a drug case or whatever other anti freedom law that is so loved
> in supposedly free societies, I would be bound by my conscience to find not
> guilty.  And an official secrets act case... It is hard to see how members of 
> the general public could find a guilty verdict unless they were bullied by
> the state .
> 
> Also, being aware of this fact and saying so during selection, is probably
> a good escape given the desire by lawyers to have sheep on the jury. 
>

Not being a lawyer I don't know the answer to this, but are lawyers
allowed to say to the jury "and by the way you can ignore what the old
fart with the wig says, and make your own jugdement based on moral
principles."

														GW

Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8290 soc.culture.british:17766
From: mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,uk.politics
Subject: Re: UK unemployment figures
Date: 18 Dec 92 12:55:09 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

In article <CC.92Dec18112426@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk> cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:
>Well, let's not forget the decades of emigration to the south-east of England
>from the poorer parts of the UK.  That "south east" unemployment figure must
>include hundreds of thousands of such emigrants.  Scottish unemployment never
>gets particularly high because so many people leave the country to find a
>job.

Oh, come on, this is very feeble. In my experience, the sort of
Scot or northerner who emigrates to the south-east is likely to
be the educated professional person who moves south to get a
well-paid job and then adds to the figures of the supposed
wealthy south. Yes, there is a professional class which looks
at the whole UK as its job market, and tends to find more jobs
in the south-east. But all this means to real southerners is
that there are a lot of grotty service jobs serving these our
lords and masters.

Matthew Huntbach
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8109 soc.culture.british:17437 soc.culture.usa:9181
From: jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: British interference in U.S. elections
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:50:44 GMT
	<1992Dec10.122021.8312@cas.org>
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.
In-reply-to: jac54@cas.org's message of 10 Dec 92 12:20:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.122021.8312@cas.org> jac54@cas.org writes:

	   There is a great deal of collaboration between the intelligence
	   agencies of the U.S., the U.K., Australia, and Canada.  This
	   includes sharing a lot of information and collaboration on
	   operations.  This goes as far as the NSA paying part of the
	   costs of GCHQ in return for a share of the take.  If the
	   agencies need to operate against a target in one of these
	   countries, they work out a liaison agreement that leaves the
	   local agency to do the work, as the target will often be of
	   interest to both parties.  In practice, they do not spy on
	   citizens of one another's countries.  They probably do,

There have been reports in the UK that GCHQ has been used to get
around the regulations imposed on the NSA. The NSA isn't supposed to
monitor domestic telephone traffic. To get round this, NSA asked GCHQ
to monitor the traffic they were interested in - using NSA facilities
conveniently located at strategic places in the US telephone network -
and then hand over any "product" to the people at Fort Meade.

		Jim
From: ccsdgdc@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Douglas Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:30:17 GMT
Organization: Bath University Computing Services, UK


Remember the old English saying 'In Oliver's time' marking out
a period of wealth and prosperity. The folk-image of Oliver wasn't bad.
-- 
Douglas Clark                                  Voice : +44 225 826039
Regional Services,                       JANET : D.G.D.Clark@uk.ac.bath
Bath University Computing Services, UUCP : ...uunet!mcsun!uknet!gdr!D.G.D.Clark
Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY    ARPA : D.G.D.Clark%bath.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
From: urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Gaelic-L
Date: 19 Dec 92 17:41:44 GMT

Could someone please e-mail me the subscription address for
the Gaelic-L ListServ?  Also, I believe a number of other
Celtic Language ListServs have been mentioned on here, may
I have these as well?

Thank you in advance.

Please use:  urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu
Cat

--
Eilidh Swan
************************************************************************
Cat McGlothlin    urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu   'urcat'='you-are-cat'   "Oh!"
                  eilidh@cs.ucsb.edu       -- Eilidh is Celtic for Ellen
 The University never has, and never will, pay for or fund my opinions.