From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 13:14:55 GMT

In article <78524@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
>In article <SHAW.92Aug26002432@whopper.lcs.mit.edu> shaw@whopper.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw) writes:
>>That does not
>>diminish my experience _now_, nor that of the group of people who have
>>common experiences and common interests.  There is nothing "icky" about the
>>fact of life that YOU and I have a hell of a lot in common
>
>But it's not a fact of life that we have very much in common.  It's
>starting to become quite clear that your life and my life have been
>quite different, and as far as life experiences go, I probably have
>more in common with this "jj" fellow than I do with you.

  YOU DO????  Have you been beat up for taking the SAT?  Have you
  had doctor's and lawyer's kids beat you up for getting the answer
  right to a test question they got wrong?  Don't pride yourself on
  having a life experience common with JJ (what is this "jj" fellow?).
  JJ has been through a lot worse than you have (from what you write,
  unless you've not told us everything...)

In another article Joe Wang writes:
>Actually, now that you mention it.  There are about 20 Chinese
>families where I lived, and all of them were represented somewhere in
>the "social elite."  I never noticed that before..........

>People entered the social elite when their parents had money,
>important jobs in the community and wanted them to go to college.

>Now that you mention it, ALL the Chinese families had it better than
>the "white mass."  Curiously, there were no "Asian-Americans" at our
>school.  All the Chinese kids were either "Asian" or "American."

>I just realized that I haven't been in a recent (i.e. after sophomore
>year in high school) situation in which being Chinese WASN'T an
>advantage socially speaking.  Maybe that's why you and I have such
>radically different views about American society.

  Sounds like your life experience has more in common with
  JJ's petty elite and group of Asian professional elite.
  JJ was definitely not in the petty elite.  He got beat up
  for going into stores, into libraries, even on Market Street!
  Lucky he had some fast pf's (what are pf's?).

>I suppose that what I'm asking is for you to realize how different you
>and I really are, and the fact that there is very little that you and
>I share that would form the basis for any sort of identity.  I'm also
>asking that you not think less of me because we'll likely find
>ourselves 180 degrees apart on most issues.  In particular, don't
>accuse me of "selling out." 

  Okay, then can we call you clueless?
>
>This is what I am afraid Asian-American activism will lead to.  Right
>now, AA's make up about 30% of people at MIT, about 10% of people at
>Harvard, etc. etc.  In about forty years, it's quite likely that about
>30% of Fortune 500 CEO's, doctors, lawyers, researchers, etc will be
>AA, even though the population is <10% AA's.
>
>I leave as an exercise to the reader, what an unscrupulous politician
>could do if the economy suffers a downturn and if as a result of AA
>activism, the country sees AA's as "one of them" instead of "one of
>us."

  Who's THEM and who's US.  You didn't define those terms.  Although
  it seems obvious you refer to THEM as "those goddamn minorities,
  alternate-lifestyle creeps, radical feminists, union agitators, etc"
  and US as the "social elite, baseball, apple pie, traditional family values
  crowd".  So you're saying that if a Hitler were to come to power
  you'd rather join the Gestapo than be the Jewish scapegoats.
  You really think that if you joined the Gestapo that your family
  would be safe?  I guess you're saying if AA's joined the Gestapo
  then we can look for another group as scapegoats.  Can't any of
  you get it through your thick heads that saving yourselves does
  not necessarily make the world safe for everyone?  The dominant
  powers will just pick and choose their victims.  This time it's
  the Jews, next time it's the Japanese, the time after it's the
  Blacks.  And you Joe Wang think you're safe by joining the
  majority.  Ha.  Just wait until it's your turn.   The activists
  of all groups want to make sure that NO ONE gets "ethnically
  cleansed", not just to sell-out and save their own skins,
  for the time being.  
>
>I believe that if the game is ever "us vs. them," "we" will lose.
>It's better to be one of "them" than to be one of "us."  You seem to
>think that this is impossible without losing "self-respect."  Fine, we
>disagree.

  Do you think the "them" really respect you?  Or are they grinning
  behind your back?  Why do you think double-agents are trusted by
  neither side, but used by both sides.  They are often eliminated
  when they are no longer useful.  Think about it.
>
>>If you take shit from anyone, they will lose respect for you.  If you bash
>>them back, they will not necessarily like you, but they will respect you
>>more.  
>
>If you bash them back and in the process hit thirty potential allies
>who had nothing at all to messing with you in the first place, I call
>that a bad deal.....

  Did you really grow up here?  I've found it easy to nip it in the bud
  (excuse my use of terminology).  If a kid started to harrass me, I'd
  elbow or punch him out early on, thus gaining his/her respect and
  stopping it immediately.  If you take shit and run away or try and
  bow and scrape they'll continually harrass you until THEY get sick
  of it, because you're no fun.  Ha ha.  I've turned would-be harrassers
  to allies because I stopped it immediately and gained their respect.
  There was this big Black girl who used to try and twist my arm
  and call me Chink.  I elbowed her, kicked her butt and told her she
  was a prejudiced racist.  Then she wanted to be my friend!  Similarly
  with this Mexican girl who called me Ching-Chong and I called her
  a Mexican jumping bean and PHew those farts.  Even after I graduated
  when she saw me in the mall she was very friendly and made it clear
  that she thought very highly of me, going out of her way to say "hi".
  I see more respect in the eyes of the would-be harrassers that got
  stopped short than I've seen of people like some of my friends who
  got scared or tried to bow and scrape.  They were basically harrassed
  until the perpetrator got tired of it (it was too easy).  I'm sure
  it did wonders to their self-respect, unless they're as clueless as you.
>
>to accuse Lui Sieh of being a "white sycophant" with no
>"self-respect," then you are going to have to make the same accusation
>toward me, and there is NO WAY IN HELL, you will be able to make it
>stick.
  You're just clueless.
>
>Interesting.........
>
>Actually I'm the opposite.  In the near term, I'm optimistic.  In the
>far term, I'm very, very worried.  There are just too many
>disconcerting trends to make me think that my children will
>necessarily have a better time in the United States than I had.
>

  You mean you're worried that Asian Americans will become a noticeable
  minority, instead of an invisible minority like when you grew up?
>

>