From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech
Date: 4 Sep 92 07:53:19 GMT
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

dww@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Michael DWC Wong) writes:
: >
: >Don't put words into my mouth.
: >
: >Silence on the part of an individual indicates nothing; however, silence
: >on the part of a statistically representative sample of people would
: >indicate something.
: >
: >For example, the silence that we "hear" from the Chinese-cu with regard
: >to Tibet indicates that many Chinese-cu, at least apathetically,
: >condone the atrocities that are occurring yearly in Tibet.  Of course,
: >the proof is in the pudding.  Just log onto some of the predominantly
: >Chinese-cu newsgroups, and you, Ms. Cheung, will find that there are
: >Chinese-cu who deny the atrocities committed by the Chinese-ge against the
: >Tibetan and who, in fact, support the forced annexation of Tibet
: >(and Taiwan).
: 
: The CHinese individuals you see in the s.c.c net do not represent CHina or
: Chinese people in general; just as you do not represent Western culture.
: How many Chinese individuals have you interacted to draw a statistically 
: relevant conclusion? 

Making a "statistically relevant conclusion" is a very interesting problem.
The question which we should ask is: what is the percentage of "samples",
in a "larger group", where we can make a conclusion?

Should it be 50%, just to be democratic.
If this is the case, we cannot make any decision at all. We cannot even say
that the Japanese are atrocious.
	I'm sure if you ask all the Japanese people whether they agree or not,
to the atrocities which their soldiers commit, I'm sure that more than 50%
WILL NOT agree? Although this question has not been done, at least the fact
is that, we have not enough samples to make any decision at all, because the
people committing the atrocities do not represent more than 50% of the Japanese
people. 
	So if the Japanese people are not atrocious, why should we ask the
Japanese emperor to Apologise for actions done by a small group of misguided
people. As one poster had indicated on the cannabalism in s.c.asean, the
army HQ from Tokyo disapproves of the actions of its soldiers, treating it
as a criminal offence.

The same is true of Germany.

Surely something is wrong in this argument. The percentage should not be 50%.
rather I propose, the deviation from normal.

Normally, only 0.1% of an American is atrocious. Japanese and Germans are
1% atrocious, so we can conclude that Japanese and Germans are more atrocious
than Americans. These are based on actual observable data, for example the 
number of people caught or reasonably probable(90% certainty) to have 
committed the atrocities, against the entire population.

I have been monitoring the news groups of Japan, Turky, Asean, Australian,
Taiwan.

The percentage of posters who are violent when something wrong had been 
pointed out about chinese "whatever" is much higher than other races.
The sad thing is that they do not admit to the "charges" against them, but
would rather act violently. For example, put me under ISA, fire me from
University etc.

Why? By just quoting a newspaper article which left out some evidence, and
the cultprit is most probably chinese.

The australians did not do that. The Japanese did not do that, only
the chinese posters in the various groups. Some japanese was very polite
and in fact admit to all the charges and even make suggestions as to how
to correct them. The japanese even take responsibility to the actions of
their governments.

This is in contrast to the "chinese posters". I did not do any counting, but
I can conclude that the "chinese" are more violent when something bad
about "chinese" is pointed out to them.

As I had mentioned earlier, this is "my" definition of "racist". It is
a mild one yet, but it is because of the low level of stress. In times of
war, the racism will be even greater.
	The chance of China preemtively nuclear bombing Japan and Taiwan
is much higher than others, especially when they are cornered.

Of course, this is only if you agree to the definition of most deviation 
from common. The weakness here is that I have not observed Russia, etc.

If you do not agree, then we all have no right to blame each other anything,
against each group of people. May be this is the most civilised way, but
we cannot choose any direction at all.

: You are entitled to your own views but you SHOULD NOT try to force it
: down other people's throat. Remember that this is a free country, every one is 
: entitled to his/her own views.

The feeling should be mutual. Why can't we just let people speak their minds,
and don't harrass them.
	We only look like fools for defending wrong points, or counter
attacking pointlessly. 

: 
: I think the babric actions of the Chinese Government is as a result of the
: communist totalitarian syatem and not so much as the CHinese culture.
: This is what happens in a un-democratic society ; the government can
: take advantage of its position to do whatever it wants.
: But a democratic government works only if the majority of the people are
: "educated" or can think critically. China, I believe, is not ready yet for
: democracy. Over 80% of the people are peasants. 
: So it just happens that CHina has a bad system of government . 
: The actions of the government of China does not represent CHinese attitude.
: In any case, China keeps its activities in Tibet secret to the Chinese
: people in China, so they do not know much about what the government 
: does.

The same thing is true of the Japanese in the 2nd world war, but
now Japan is a democracy, or still is, but not China.
	Shouldn't we pressure china more now.

However I agree with the views of the majority of the Japanese posters that
the Emperor should apologize to the Chinese people for the atrocities in
Nanking. Dwight Joe's statement that Japan had said "regrets" are not the
same, as apologising and paying compensation.
	The koreans only demand US $6 million, which should be paid by
a wealthy(relatively) Japan, while it still can.

: 
: Take a look around the world....
: Atrocious and babaric acts are committed by everyone, every race; from
: the white poeple in Bosnia and Croatia (Killing babies in a bus) to
White people is too general. Chinese is more specific so is more useful.
To include Chinese as Asians will not serve any purpose at all, because it
includes Tibetans, Native Taiwanese, and Japanese. To be more useful,
we must separate the victims from the oppressors, so that we can attempt
to cure a disease. If we can't even do that, or do not want to do that,
we will never get rid of any disease.

: Black people in Somalia (Civil war) to the Arabs in Iraq (Saddam Hussein).
: One thing common to all these cases is that those people all do not have
: a democratic government or are not yet ready for it.
: America is lucky to be blessed with a democratic governemnt.
: As Americans, you shpuld have compassion on other less fortunate individuals
: and not just condemn them outright because they do not have a democratic

Every one has the right to condempt anyone provided he has the facts. You
identify the reason as being the lack of democracy, then the condemnation is
valid as long as there is no democracy.

: government.
: Let me re-iterate. Every country of every race is capable of having a democratic governemnt if the majority of the people are educated enough to
: be able to think critically. Therefore some countries are more
: ready than others for democracy. It is not so much as the culture 
: of the individual country.  
The culture of the Americans are very different from their ancestors. Their
language, music and way of thinking are different from their mother countries,
within limits.
	Once china becomes democratic, it will be very different. The Japan
which was westernised, was very different from the Japan during Samurai era.
Their cultures are entirely different. The older culture remains as a ,
curiousity, not to be followed.
	The chinese must admit that this will happen, just as it has happened,
to all other cultures.

: 
: >We as Americans (and Asian-Americans) should strongly support the
: >principles of the Bill of Rights.  As a consequence, we should strongly
: >support the RimPac92 military exercises, in which Japan will participate
: >for the very first time with S. Korea and the USA; these nations should
: >do everything in their power to ensure that the Chinese-cu keep their
: >sticks and stones away from Taiwan when it declares independence and
: >away from the rest of Southeast Asia.
: 
: Who are you to determine what america needs to do?

Each citizen is entittled to determine the need of his country. This is
the basis of democracy.

: 
: You do not really appreciate what REAL American culture is. The culture
: that helped build America into such a great country and which is
: now gradually being eroded through prosperity and greed.
: 
: The genuine Americans (the pioneers ) are hard working, very. They are down
: to earth people. They are frugal and save a lot of money.
: They respect their elders and belive in strong family bond.
: 
: This are the more conspicous qualities of genuine Americans; qualities that
: come to your mind first when you think abou them.
: 
: And this, seems to me, to be similar to Chinese culture in that respect.
: Chinese poeple are hard-working, frugal, and respect their elders too.
: 
: What you do, Mr.Joe, is that you pick out only certain minor qualities in
: the Chinese culture and attack it. Especially, you pick out isolated

We should only attack bad points so that they can be changed. If the
chinese want to change, they must first realise that something is wrong.

: incidents to illustrate your point. Maybe you should be less assertive in 
: making your statements...I do make generalisations too, but I am less
: assertive , I am willing to change.  

If nobody is assertive, we can never make any decision or even learn.
It seems as though anything can be right.

: 
: So like you, I can also pick out minor traits of the American people and
: focus my attack on it.
: I can say that The americans and westerners are racist, and continue to be.
: They subject Blacks in the early days to in-human treatment during the slave
: trade. They make them work on farms and treat them like animals.
: They even believe blacks are inferior and live on trees; some of
: them still do have these beliefs...now directed at Africans and not
: so much as on Balcks. ...the Klu Klux Klan seems to me to be a pretty
: babaric organisation by the White people of America.
: The Apartheid regime in South Africa 's inhuman treatment of blacks
: seems babaric to me too. They segregated, and still do, to a certain extent ,
: blacks from whites.
: The skin heads in Germany's recent riots to drive minorities out of
: their country seems babaric to me.
: The beating up of Rodney King by white policemen and the subsequent acquittal
: of these white policemen seems babaric. I can say racism exists in the
: western culture and therefore western culture is babaric.
:     Western culture has an inherent white supremacy complex.
Unlike the chinese posters, the western people do not harrass you, and they
are trying to change.
	Are the chinese willing to change, and at what rate?
	This applies not only to chinese but to all races and cultures,
including my culture, if only I know which culture I have.

: 
: And you still have not find a re-buttal to the actions
: , atrocious actions commited by the Japanese to the other ASIAn people.
: the rape of Nanking, etc. Is not that a babaric action by the 
: Japanese people?

I thought he had done that by saying that the Japanese had said regrets to
a few groups of people. The emperor even apologised to Koreans. In fact he
also mentioned something like a statement with the Chinese government.

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean