HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Subject: Re: Religion _in_practice_
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 08:23:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

singhal@cs.Stanford.EDU (Sandeep Singhal) writes:
> What I
> mean by this is that although any religious services at camp were officially
> "non-denominational," they almost invariably had a Christian overtone.

The word that BSA uses in its offical literature is "non-sectarian".  The
definitions from The American Heritage Dictionary:

non-denominational - not restricted to or associated with a religious
denomination.

non-sectarian - not limited to or associated with a religious denomination.

The words seem interchangeable, but I have only heard "non-denominational"
used in a christian context.  I think that in actual usage in the US it in
fact means "not restricted to or associated with a particular christian
denomination."  I think you are right about most Scouters being christian,
simply because most Americans are christian (assuming the most inclusive
definition of "christian".)

Most Americans (myself included) have very little religious education outside
their own denomination.  Even well meaning Scouters are limited by their
understanding of the subject.  I think there are two ways this problem can
be addressed.  Christian Scouters need to make a strong effort to find Scouts
and Scouters who are not christian when planning religious services.  Likewise,
Scouts and Scouters who are not christian need to get themselves involved in
planning the religious services.  I have been involved in planning activities
at the unit, district and council level.  At every activity at every level we
have been more than willing to accept help in planning and conducting the
activity.  Getting involved in plannang and conducting Scouting activities is
certainly a lot more work than just going, but it will take that level of
involvement to change religious services from basically christian to truely
non-sectarian.

I guess I've been aware of this problem for quite some time but have never
done anything to address it.  I will begin immediately to seek help of people
whose religious beliefs are not christian in every Scouting activity that I
help to plan.  I encourage all christian Scouters to make a similar effort and
I encourage non-christian Scouters to take on an activist role in helping make
religious services at Scouting events inclusive of their religious beliefs.

> -Sandeep Singhal
> Eagle Scout '84

WWW
Dan Kary
Eagle Scout '68
From: kmeyer@aero.org (Kraig R. Meyer)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: More homosexuality opinions that don't belong in rec.scouting...
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:40:14
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org
In-reply-to: graham@ravel.udel.edu's message of Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:52:05 GMT

 graham@ravel.udel.edu (Graham McK Segroves) said:

> I do _not_ think homosexuality is immoral (I am heterosexual). I can
> understand the arguments of those who say that it is _unnatural_, given 
> that homosexual contact is not nature's way of providing for our species' 
> survival. (I do not necessarily agree, but I understand.) But while I can 
> see the logic in saying that homosexuality may be unnatural, I understand 
> the fundamental difference between _unnatural_ and _immoral_. Just because 
> something is unnatural does not mean that it's immoral. 

Homosexuality cannot be "unnatural" because it doesn't involve
non-biological entities.  (That's probably not the answer anyone wanted
to hear) OK, homosexuality has been observed in a wide variety of
species, including primates, goats, rats, to name a few.  There also
haven't been any reputable scientific studies that would indicate that
sexual orientation is a trait that can be changed in humans beyond the
age of 10, and probably beyond the age of 3 or 4. Jerry Falwell will
tell you differently, but then, he's not a scientist.

The argument over whether homosexuality is moral or immoral depends on
what your definition of morality is.  If you define morality by what
the Catholic church tells you, homosexuality is not immoral but rather
"homosexual genital expression" is immoral.

I personally find it impossible to define either homosexuality, gay
sex, or gay love as immoral in that it doesn't fit any reasonable
definition of immorality.  Unlike rape, theft, and murder, it does not
hurt or injure anyone.  Unlike suicide, gluttony, or greed, it does not
prevent that person from having positive, productive relationships with
God or with other people.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily          |
| represent those of The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA.           |
|									  |
| Kraig R. Meyer		   	                 kmeyer@aero.org  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Standards (Was: More on God)
Keywords: BSA policy religion
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:26:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science

dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
>If there were a hypothetical
>Scout Association, let's call it the Buddhist Scout Association (BSA for
>short ;-), and  they said,

>"Every member of the BSA must show the proper respect for the Buddha *"

>"* The BSA takes no position on what constitutes the Buddha. Each member
>may interpret this word to mean whatever he or she wants."

>I, as a Christian, would have no problem with being a member of this,
>hypothetical, organization. I would just interpret the word as
>applying according to my personal beliefs. We have agreed that we will
>use a special definition. There is nothing unusual about this, most
>professions have a special vocabulary, many of which redefine ordinary
>words.

>As I demonstrated earlier one Scout could easily interpret the word
>"God" in the Scout Law as meaning "Gravity" and this would be
>quite withing the bounds of BSA (not hypothetical) policy.

Then I take it that your interpretation of the BSA belief in God
requirement is that it is entirely vacuous?  And if so, how
important is it, really?

Chris Evans
jce@ocean.geol.scarolina.edu
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Standards  (Was: More on God)
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:39:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.6lbqtam
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Nov9.194514.26667@sei.cmu.edu> rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito) writes:
>
>In article <2m+q_+g@lynx.unm.edu>, Dominick V. Zurlo writes:
>
>>   Now, as far as the membership standards, they really don't have an impact 
>> on the organization being so good...
>
>OK, let's change them so that only unrepentant convicted felons are eligible
>and see what happens.

Once again, twisting words...We're talking about having inclusive 
membership, not exclusive.  If you allowed these unrepentant 
convicted felons, they ywould quickly find themselves unwelcome
and would leave.  We aren't talking about changing the actual membership
of the BSA, just allowing those who have always been a part of it to
be more open and honest.  The only people excluded from the BSA are
lesbigays and atheists.  Even convicted felons can join, after they have
served their time and been paroled.  lets be real here.  Are you 
comparing leabigays and atheists with convicted felons?  No? then you're
analogy doesn't hold.  Please take things in context.  If you do place
lesbigays and atheists on the same level, then to Charles, this is what 
I meant by the bashing, esp. in attitude, and being treated like a 
second class citizen.  
But back to this example,  ok, let's say we changed the membership to 
only those with a conviction on a felony... Well, there wouldn't be many 
boys left in the troops now, and thus the BSa would no longer be serving 
it's purpose...to help boys grow into men. Gee, wouldn't be the scouts
anymore.  
>
>Rich

****************************************************************
*  Dominick V. Zurlo              *    "If the world's an      *
*  WWW                            *    oyster, why am I        *
*  Eagle Scout '87                *    allergic to Mollusks?"  *
*  blacklisted '88                *                            *
****************************************************************
From: poli2031@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Rovers
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:36:50 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <jfarmer.720895516@sfu.ca>, jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer) writes:
> Are there any Rovers out there? (Gary, I know your floating around here         
> somewhere) 
> 
> I'm a squire with the 11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew in Delta, BritishColumbia.  What I'm looking for is discussions on activities of Rovers, 
> Rovering's future, etc.
> 
> Jason Farmer
> 11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
> jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
> Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
> Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
> Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
>                              |      rh'e hweithnaef
>                              |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.
> 
I am an ex-ARSL of an Open Crew in Malaysia.  I have not been active in
scouting for 6 years now.  I am glad to see that there are posting about
rovering and would be glad to contribute.
JUAY
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: young@eg.ecn.purdue.edu (Mike Young)
Subject: Re: A Scout is Tolerant?
Summary: I have another suggestion... 
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:16:57 GMT

In article <1dr2tdINN6d1@nuala.hal.COM> juan@hal.COM (John Thompson Reynolds) writes:
>
>Maybe we need a 13th point to the Scout Law?
>
>Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly,
>Curteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, 
>Thrify, Brave, Clean, Reverent, 
>and sometimes Tolerant?
>
>One would have thought that Curteous and Kind would have
>been enough, but apparently they aren't.

	On the lighter side, certain, er, situations that one of our Scouts
has found himself in has caused us to consider including as a 13th point:

			a Scout is Coordinated...

:-) :-) :-)




--
    |  Mike Young KA9HZE                |       young@ecn.purdue.edu    |
    |  Purdue University EE Dept.       |       ...!pur-ee!young        |
    |  W. Lafayette, IN  47907          |                               |
    _____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: cronin@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Fester the Penguin)
Subject: Re: Stan - Hatred is unbecoming  (anecdote)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:18:00 GMT

In article <ardq09m@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>Now this all may be an unfair character judgement, but with the 
>information I have I do not feel it is one.  
>Stan, your bigotry and prejudice and hatefullness have no place in 
>this world.  especially not it scouting.  
>
>As an aside, how long have you been involved in scouting Stan?  
>All your life?  a few years?  hmmm?  For me it's been
>all my life as far back as I can remember.  I am a product
>of the BSA, and I'm GAY!  If you don't like it, leave. 
>

May as well give it up, Dominick. I've already come to the conclusion that
Stan is pretty useless and hopeless as a human being. Definitely not a 
person I'd want as a Scoutmaster for my kids. Maybe National should revise
policy to bar anal retentive bigots from the BSA. It would certainly make 
the running of the BSA at all levels much easier... (This is from my 
experience in Scouting..)

Stan actually reminds me of a Scoutmaster in the Wolverine Council in
Michigan. The guy was impossible to deal with. For example, one fine day at
summer camp, one of Mr. F's Scouts became ill. A staff member CARRIED said
Scout from the First Aid Hut all the way to the troop site, with Mr. F 
following behind, not lifting a finger to help. The staff member entered the
tent and placed the Scout on his cot and went so far as to tuck the Scout in.
(Mr. F was, of course watching without offering a thing). Upon emerging from
the tent, Mr. F immediately began screaming "Child molestation! Sexual abuse!"
and threatened to have the staff member and the camp reported to National,
state and federal authorities, etc., etc and so forth. (Boy, sounds more like
Stan every minute, doesn't it?). 

Our intrepid Program Director, Dee Slate (awesome Scouter) had this one thing
to say to Mr. F:

  "I want you out of Wright's Lake by sundown."

Tom Cronin, who has been in Scouting long enough to know how things really
go on....

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: Troop Cheer
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:52:35 GMT

I'm tired of the old Troop 99 Cheer:
Up the River,
Down the Creek
Who's the Troop that can't be beat!

Troop 99, Hey
Troop 99, Hey
Troop 99, Hey
The Wild Ones

Anyone have something different that goes with 99???

Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
Goodyear, AZ  85338
PH 602 925 7929  Fax 602 925 6988
From: ceichel@eis.calstate.edu (Charles L. Eichelberger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Venture Crew
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:08:18 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter) writes:
> I have started a Venture Crew.  As a Scoutmaster of a High Adventure Troop
> I see no problem from an activity viewpoint.  However, I can't find any
> literature at our council on the "program."  Anyone out there no something
> on program, advancement, etc?
> 
For a quick overview, I would suggest looking at the "Junior Leader
Handbook". It has a good outline of what a Venture crew is all about. I
would also tell your Unit Comissioner, District Exec and District Comm
about it as the local council service center should have some literature!

Charles
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer)
Subject: Re: Rovers
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:41:39 GMT

cs911275@ariel.yorku.ca (MICHAEL A MACDONALD) writes:


>    Yes, there are other rover crews out here. I am the Mate for the
>3rd Newtonbrook Rovers. We are located in North York (Toronto) Ontario
>Canada. We've been around for over 30 years, I believe... We'd be glad
>to discuss the future of Rovers and Rovering. 

>--Michael Alexander MacDonald.

   I'm glad to see you.  My first question would have to be - is your
membership going up or down?

   Here in the Fraser Valley Region, Rover membership is rising, while it
appears that membership in other sections is going down.

   Is this happening in North York?

Jason Farmer
11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew


-- 
Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
                             |      rh'e hweithnaef
                             |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: cs911275@ariel.yorku.ca (MICHAEL A MACDONALD)
Subject: Rovering Membership
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:21:14 GMT

  If I was asked a year ago, how the membership in my crew was, I woud tell
them that our membership was  going through the floor. (I had left my crew
for a year due to financial reasons. Ie. Registration was too much. 
) As of about august, I brought 3 new squires into our crew (2 of them were
female, and as a resuult we decided to go co-ed) We have also, since our
decision to go co-ed, had had to get a female advisor. I forsee our membership
will rise as time goes on. The 3 new squires are very positive about the
crew. Since the arrival of the new squires, our crew has seen an increase in
the amount of "life" we have. 

==============================================================================
Michael Alexander MacDonald                                                  
Mate of the 3rd Newtonbrook Rover crew                                      
Executive member of the York University Computer Club.                        
York University, Canada, E-MAIL: cs911275@ariel.yorku.ca                      
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: singhal@cs.Stanford.EDU (Sandeep Singhal)
Subject: Religion _in_practice_
Originator: singhal@csd-d-1.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Stanford University, Department of Computer Science, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 03:42:12 GMT

Alot of time has been spent worrying about what the BSA means by "god."  
Probably a better question is:  How well do troops actually implement
a non-denominational approach to "a scout is reverent."  If the discussion
of religion in scouting is to be of any relevence, it must be considered
in terms of _practice_ rather than _theory_.

My experience has been that although the scouting program has accepted
my religious beliefs (Hindu), it has not provided any support.  What I
mean by this is that although any religious services at camp were officially
"non-denominational," they almost invariably had a Christian overtone.  I
remember one camping trip when I was in seventh grade where we had a Saturday 
night service.  In the middle of it, the leader asked the group to sing a
particular hymn.  Although the ideas talked about during the service
were "general" in nature (respect fellow man, wonder of nature, etc. etc.)
it was also extremely uncomfortable to be with a group who were singing a
hymn which everyone _else_ knew very well but which I had never heard before.

Similar incidents occur often.  My experience has been that although troops
try to be non-denominational in theory, the implementation of "a scout is
reverent" does not always follow this goal.

The reason for this is two-fold:
	- I would venture to guess that the majority of scout leaders are
	  Christian.  In many cases, they are active Christians.  Thus, 
	  although they espouse religious tolerance, they have no experience
	  with non-Christian religions.
	- When a religious service is run in Scouting, it is often led by
	  a Christian religious leader.  I believe that although religious
	  leaders tend to have more understanding of other religions, they
	  do not always take them into account when leading a service.

I'm curious as to the experiences of other non-Christians in Scouting regarding
this issue.  Assuming that Scouting is non-denominational, how well did
your troop support you.

Also, how do other troops handle religion (particularly the Saturday/Sunday
services given at camp)?

Yours in Scouting,

-Sandeep Singhal

Eagle Scout '84
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Rovers
Date: 5 Nov 1992 23:37:22 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

Adam,

What and who are the Rovers?

Greg



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: R1SCM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Dr. Steven C. Myers)
Subject: Re: Scouts in the backcountry
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:47:38 GMT

In article <BxGuLC.MD4@umassd.edu>
pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson) writes:
>The post on backpacking recently sparked my memory...
>  ...
>      During the course of the trip, we met a large number of hardcore
>backpackers and outdoorspeople who, to put it lightly, were extremely annoyed
>with Scout troops as being the worst "offenders" in the backcountry.
>
>  ...
>The BSA _does_ publish some literature concerning no-trace camping. If your unit
>plans on doing any significant backcountry stuff, be sure to read it. The
>typical Scout troop is much too large to bring out into the wilderness and avoid
>impact.
>----------------------------------------------------
>Dennis J. Wilkinson, II  (pnsf01dw@umassd.edu)
>University of Massachusetts Dartmouth - Design/CS Project
>
>The opinions reflected in this post are MINE!!!! ALL MINE!!!!!
 
Dennis,
You might want to post a fuller response than this one, but the BSA does
publish a book and audiovisual called LOW-IMPACT CAMPING (no. 20-126)
mine is dated 1984 printing, but the copy has April 1985 on the front.
The booklet and especially the audiovisual is super.  It is essentially
a training course designed to be used in scout groups that are about
to go out into the wilderness.  I have a very young scout troop
and I used this training with them with great success.  Even though our
trips have not really been into the "wilderness" we have been in areas
that demand Low-impact skills.  I believe that you train the scouts
from the beginning that Low-impact is the way to go!
 
Anyway, when you get a copy from your council service center or your
DE, you will see that in addition to the outdoor code that every
scout is required to adhere to, there is a committment card (suitable
for copying) called the Wilderness pledge which goes considerably
farther than the outdoor code.  Among many other statements, the
Wilderness Policy of the BSA requires
- low impact skills apart from regular camping skills
- maximum group size of 8 to 10 persons.
- tour permits required to be carried
- ranger to be contacted prior to trip
- be trained, proficient or experienced in leadership and skills for the
  wilderness
- scouts to be trained in appropriate skills prior to the trip
- use stoves not groung fires
- leave dogs, radios, ... at home
 
and my personal favorite:  "leave snakes, bears, ..., and other wildlife
alone."  - not a problem!
 
Steve Myers
Scoutmaster, Troop 1
From: rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Standards  (Was: More on God)
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:53:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: sei.1992Nov9.195327.27152
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute


In article <1992Nov7.073633.17744@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, cronin@en.ecn.purdue.edu
(Fester the Penguin) writes:

|> If an athiest boy is going to grow up to be amoral without religious
|> training (something I don't believe) then you'd think that the BSA
|> would be the perfect organization for them. Too bad some people want
|> to keep the BSA their private club..
|>
|> Tom C.

Wrong -- the organization does not have religious instruction as its purpose.
There are organizations for that already.

Furthermore, private organizations have the legal right to exist and to set
standards.  If you wish to argue against the general propriety of private
clubs (vs. public accomodations), try a group devoted to Constitutional and/or
common law.

Rich
 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting