From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 17 Nov 92 11:48:08 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BxtL08.Fs6@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
[..]
>That Macedonian couldn't be understood by the ancient Greeks - that
>sounds like a different language to me.

Or perhaps you want to see it as different. I have written it
to you before and I am repeating it again now. I am a Pontian
Greek. If Pontians speak loudly the rest of the Greeks will not
understand them (very little). Reason? Our dialect is a
deriviative of the Ancient Ionian dialect. The same for some other
(local) dialects. So, where is the "proof"? And this is not the
only example. What about the Greek dialect in the West of
Peloponnesos, S. Italy, etc in the Ancient times? Isolated
areas would naturally produce different dialects from others.

[..]
>How about R.A.Crossland who wrote the relevant chapters for the new
>edition of the *Cambridge Ancient History* vol.3 pt1, ch.20c.A man whose
>credentials are unimpeachable.

What did he say? In what context? How was his research
conducted? All this is important.
>
>> Hard evidence please. The Demosthenes argument has been discussed
>> numerous times and the answer is well known.

>For those not in the know Demosthenes remarked that Philip of Macedon
>was not only not a Greek but not even from a barbarian race that anyone
>could speak well of but a Macedonian. As a skillful orator he is
>unlikely to have used an argument which if the Greek posters are right
>and ancient Macedonians were clearly Greeks would have made him a
>laughing stock in his opponents eyes.

Wrong again. You are omitting the rest. He also said that a man
could not even buy a decent slave from Phillip and other
things. The man *hated* Philip and the threat to the
independence of Athens that he represented. However, he was not
successful in convincing Atheneans, 'till the very end.
Convenient to forget, perhaps?

>> Isocrates was not
>> "philo-Macedonian", but a pan-hellen (calling for union of
>> Greeks instead of the civil wars of his time).

>How then are we to explain his remark in his complimentary speech 'To
>Philip' that Philip when he wished to be a king avoided going to the
>territory of the Hellenes because he knew they wouldn't tolerate a king
>and sought to become king over the Macedonians. As you say Isocrates
>sought to unite the Greeks under Philip's leadership against Persia.
>Given this context, the remark above seems very strong evidence that the
>Macedonians were not regarded as Greeks by the ancient Greeks.

Althoough I do not remember this speech by heart and I have
reason to doubt your presentation, many arguments could be
placed:

1) The term "Hellenes" was not describing Greeks all the time.
Homer calls Greeks "Achaeoi" and sometimes "Danoi". "Hellenes"
are only those under Achileas.

2) Isocrates could well mean that collectively Greeks would not
tolerate a king easily, since full (local) independence and
many times Democracy was the norm. Kingdoms had been abolished.

3) The way presented by you, indicates to me that it certainy
is out of context and I would like to see it myself first.

4) Most important look further down.

 And this
>was the general view in antiquity I refer you to Badian's fundemental
>paper 'Greeks and Macedonians' in Barr-Sharrar and Borza (ed.s)
>*Macedonian and Greece in late classical and Early Hellenistic times*
>Because Alexander like all the Argead kings claimed to be a Greek. The
>only 'proof' for this is a story told by his ancestor Alexander the
>Philhellene (BTW what a funny title for a man who's meant to be Greek to
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
Compare it to the beliefs of Isocrates, etc.

>start with) which is paralleled by many other false ancestor stories and
>best taken with a pinch of salt.

Why be selective in other sources then? Any hard evidence?

>> The biggest part of the Greek army was his anyway.

>Of course a lot of them had no choice but to be there. let's also never
>forget that some of Alexander's toughest opponents in his war against
>Darius were Greeks fighting for Persia.
             *************************

So, what? Merceneries fight for money, not for ideals, country,
etc.
[..]
>I'm afraid that you mistake an English qualifying idiom. The problem
>here is whether Sindos would have lain within the Macedonian kingdom at
>this time. However if it did, and Hammond for one thinks so, the
>strikingly non-Greek artifacts and burial practices might suggest to an
>unbiassed viewer that Macedonia can't be regarded as simply another part
>of Greece. If you've a political axe to grind of course the picture
>changes. As for preposterous posturing I stand by what I said above.

What is that person really saying then? That this is so and
hence Macedonians are not Greeks? *OR* that some
"strange-artifacts" found *only* at one grave sight (how many
are there in the whole of Ancient Macedonia?) need some
explaining, for which not enough clues are available?
>
>I dare say not, why not try extending this principle to non-Greeks, the
>inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia for instance...

The inhabitants of Skopje (be it Albanians = Illyrians, Slavs,
Gypsies, Greeks, etc) should be proud about their own
forefathers and not of other peoples'. The latter in the
context of events during this century only shows that the
leadership there, tries to make claims on false ground in their
effort to remain in power. Otherwise, communists would have
been swept away (as in most of East European countries).

>> As to "your subject", it is hardly yours to own it. And claims such
>> as the above tell the difference between historians and "historians",
>> who allow personal reasons to creep in.

>Once again what are these personal reasons please?I'm a professional
>ancient historian from the North of England with to the best of my
>knowledge not a drop of Balkan or Greek blood in my veins, nor do I have
>a Macedonian girlfriend (all offers considered though).  I have no axe
>to grind one way or the other. I in my turn might be entitled to wonder
>about the objectivity of people who when faced with uncomfortable data
>from the past simply start to abuse in this odd manner those who dare to
>challenge their preconceptions.

If you really *are* a historian (=scientist) with a number of
hard evidence, I am certain you would not object to put your
claims to test at the appropriate international fora. Write a
paper and send it to well established, unbiased (as much as
they can be), respectable Journals or Conferences (not the
Historical Review of Skopje) and if accepted by the
participants, then have the foundation for such claims. As
British say "Put your money, where your mouth is".

Expressing well-motivated doubts is OK. This means some
balance, too. In this case, balance is lacking from one who
claims to be an outsider. So, I will keep on having my doubts
about the value of your judgements, too.

>Andy

>> You better go back  to Thucidides for a lesson.

>Now there was a man who suppressed inconvenient data if ever there was
>one and ironically when he can be checked is often found wanting.  But
>perhaps that topic's worth a thread of its own.

Why? That man was exciled by Athens, yet in his history he was
well balanced and very objective, without letting personal
motives creep in his history. He travelled a lot to get a first
hand idea of what he was writing about, instead of *just*
reading what others wrote. Only God is (by definition) perfect,
yet to try to change the subject with a silly attack against
Thucidides, well... perhaps it should cause no surprise.

>Andy

With all due respect

Panayotis
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