From: doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen)
Subject: Re: Bruce flame
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 02:53:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, College of Engineering
Summary: request for documentation/proof
Followup-To: doug:  < doug@eng.umd.edu > : < doug@lpf.umd.edu >
Keywords: request for proof/documentation....
Bcc: +dist+~sc1u/Public/wiseguys.dl@andrew.cmu.edu,menolly!barbara@harvard.harvard.edu,George=Ozuna%CAE%Eng=Hou@bangate.compaq.com

In article <1992Apr11.045905.20692@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:

>Dakin Burdick <burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> says:
>
>>Just to start a flame war...
>
>>Bruce Lee was in marvelous shape, and had a very good self-defense
>>system (when he wasn't posing for the cameras) and even had a good
>>side kick, but his roundhouse kick was not that good and he really
>>could not do any "advanced" kicks. 
>
>On the contrary I could give you plenty of accounts of people who
                                            ========

	please explain this.  how about some hard documentation that one
can confirm.  we are not talking about fandom type 'he was the greatest',
or black belt magazine filler by someone who never saw or met him in
action, but someone of a level of competence that is at least recognized
by a 'reasonable' number of people in the martial arts comunity.  someone
who actually sparred him in a contest/fight, or saw his training on a
regular basis.

>knew Bruce and could back up that all his kicks were powerfull.
>I'd be interested in where your getting your info.
>As for "advanced" kicks that's rediculous too.  For it was a known
                                ==========
>fact that he studied and learned MANY advanced kicks.  He did many

	as i would be interested in where you get yours (beside the
obvious plagerisms that have appeared under your post....)
	and, what the **** is 'an advanced kick'?  this is much of a bull****
term as ever i have seen.  even the most basic kick is 'advanced' and 
even the most advanced kick is 'basic' ... ah!!! why do i bother!!! that 
statement is so irritating..... 


>of them in exhibitions in Hong Kong and other places.  Whether he
>felt the need to use them was up to him.  But his two most used

	how do you know?  how could you know.... where do you get this 
information....how about some HARD proof?  some reputable documentation!!!
(hint: i don't consider you to fall into that category... )

>and powerful kicks were the side and hook/roundhouse.

	most used when, where, how?  you mean in the movies?  in his street
gang days?  in his famous tournament (which was where? when?)

>I can also suply photograhs of the many "advanced" kicks.

	this is a ludicrous statement!  "photograhs of many "advanced" kicks"
what does this mean?  would you please explain?

>The reason he didn't do many of them is because he felt they were
>for show and felt you should stick to the basics in fighting.
>Again I can back the above up too with interviews and such.

	okay.... please state references.... exact publications, or video/
film interviews, dates and circumstances....  tap, tap, tap   .... there's
your challenge..... 

>
>>The chinese stylist they got
>>to stand in for him on the Game of Death fight scenes that had 
>>not been filmed is a much better kicker (although he does not
>>have Bruce's charisma; but then, who does?).  
>
>I believe that was Bruce Li.  As for who was a better kicker, I think
>that's kind of hard to tell from a movie, and since you've never met
>either of them in person or see either of them fight.........

	as you can not go by the same criteria since you have never met
bruce lee in person, or even seen him in person.  so, how can you speak
for his skill in a fight....  it might be different if he had any docummented
'wins' in a tournament, or recognition by 'qualified' sifus of reputation....
       ===============                     =========  =====    
	to the best of my knowledge, he never won any regional, national, or
international title in anything (except the movies) and he was never made a
master by a teacher of any style he studied.... nor did he ever attain a level
deserving such title.
	if i'm wrong, and you can show me documented proof.... i will publicly
acknowledge it, and recant this statement.  tap tap tap....  and since you are
so big on the traditions and the traditional of the chinese martial arts, do
you understand the significance of the 7star flag?  (these are given, and hard 
to earn, yet even harder to keep....)  would bruce lee happen to have had one?
would he be able to live up to one?  do you know of anyone who has one?
	
>The only thing you can do is go by written accounts of people who knew
>him.  I or anyone else that never personally knew Bruce will never be
>able to say "He really wasn't good at this" or "He was great at this",
>without basing it on other peoples experiences with him.  We have no personal
>knowlege.  That's why I think it's kind of rediculous with all of this
                                            ==========
>Bruce Lee bashing and praising (of the individual, not his style) going
>on when there's not even a slim chance anyone here actually knew him.
>You want to base it on accounts by other people then fine.  But state that
>at least.  If I make a statement about him it's because I have documented
>evidence of what I'm backing up.  If I'm talking about Jeet Kune Do, that's

	okay.... i'm challenging you on specific points.... (tap tap tap) let's
hear/see your documented evidence to back up any refutation of the statements
i've made.....

>a totally different story all together and is something that just happens
>to deal with him as a side line and not neccisarily his personal skills.
>
>But to start bashing a man that isn't even here to defend himself or his
>views, is no different than all of the American Kenpo people that have
>been coming out of the woodwork now since Ed Parker died, claiming he
>was wrong with this and that and that their approach is better.  20 years
>down the line it will get even worse, and I'm sure much about Ed will either
>be elevated to myth or tossed in the garbage as has been done with
>other people long gone.  Only those who knew Ed, or Bruce, or Morihei
>Ueshiba, or any other departed great martial artists can truly say
>they were this or that.  And unless we were lucky enough to have actually
>known these people, all we can do is go by what other these other people
>tell us.

	sheer sophistry and subterfuge.  how does ed parker and morihei
ueshiba come into this perelation.... they are well documented and known
individuals of rank, and have contributed to the martial arts community.
so has bruce lee, but in a totally different manner.  i am not belittling
bruce lee in any way for his contributions to the martial arts.  he's inspired
several generations of martial arts students who go on to become martial artists
and has opened the western eye to chinese martial arts at a time when the west 
only equated karate with all oriental cultures.... and he made some fair movies,
but he was not a master, nor a god, nor should he be diefied for his movies
personae.....
	and while we're on the subject of qualifications, would you mind
publically stating your personal martial arts qualifications?  for example,
i would be interested to see what style(s) you studied, for how long, and
under which instructors(s), and what levels (recognized and documented, and
by/from who) you attained.
	and in the weight lifting and history areas, similar questions as to
where you get your information....  

	TAP TAP TAP

	finally, i wonder if you would consider this to be harrassment?  it is
not meant to be such.  it is meant to understand what qualifications you have 
to dispence information without documentation on so many subjects with such
assurance.
	and further, i would like to know just what posts, or e-mail you do
consider harrassment, and to whom you supposedly sent them to have my account
'yanked'.  i would like some documentation, please....

	*T*A*P* - *T*A*P* - *T*A*P*      *  *   *
	                                   * **

	(clear enough?)


>
>
>Marty

	another opinion, worth about what you paid for it .....
        and, as always, i am/at:

             doug:  < doug@eng.umd.edu > : < doug@lpf.umd.edu >

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