From: dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Statistical "proofs" (Was Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:55:04 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

> | > 
> | >1.  Once upon a time from one-third to one-half of the
> | >programmers I observed were female.
> | >2.  Credentialism happened and programmers became "engineers."
> | >3.  90% of the new "engineers" are male.
> | >4.  Programmer workforce will become more skewed toward males
> | >than it was.
> | >
> | 
> | hey,
> | 
> | a programmer is NOT an engineer. we engineers have to take math and
> | science courses that the typical programmer couldn't handle on his (or
> | her) best day. once a programmer becomes a software engineer, they have 
> | to run this gauntlet like all the other engineering professions. it's the 
> | fear of these math and science classes that keep women from becoming 
> | engineers...not the old boys network.
> 
> Really?  Once upon a time I was a programmer.  As it happened, I
> had taken Calculus, but many of my peers had not.  The transition
> from programmer to "software engineer" happened quite miraculously
> and had nothing to do with my knowledge -- it had to do with the
> need to market my abilities.
> 

i'm not talking about "programmers" who just start calling themselves
"software engineers"...i'm talking about awarded degrees! at my 
university and others i have attended there are two completely separate
degrees....1) computer scince which is usually taught out of the college
of arts and sciences and 2) computer engineering/software engineering
which is usually taught out of the electrical engineering department.



> In 28 years of programming and systems work, I have never seen a
> problem that couldn't be easily solved without using Calculus.
> The last time the Calculus requirement was debated on the net, I
> took an informal survey of my colleagues in the craft.  Of a
> population of 51, number who had used Calculus on the job, ever:
> 0.  In fact, the question elicited laughter.  

i suspect that in your field there may be no need for calculus. The
areas where i worked, aircraft simulation (you don't want a pilot hopping
into a 100 million dollar aircraft without SOME simulator stick time)
anyways, we used calculus about every other MINUTE! you have to take
into account air flow around the aircraft, wind, altitude, etc. 

we also had to know about antenna theory and design to simulate when
radio transmission was cut off.

control systems was needed for knowing when our simulator systems would
be unstable

etc. etc. etc.

I am not talking about a bunch of schleps writing a billing program in
cobol!  that is NOT software engineering! software engineering is using
advanced mathematical and scientific knowledge in a computer programming
environment.


> Don't fall for 
> the academic propaganda about math and science: they're in
> business like everyone else, 

i'm not, i'm talking from experience.

> and business means building sales.
> Since you can't take the product back once you've bought it,
> they can sell you anything, including two useless years of
> Calculus.

two useless years???  i'm afraid you'll need more than that!!!!

> 
> So, if my original idea about women orignally making up a third
> of the workforce had been correct, then we could see the workings
> of sexist discrimination through a form of torture: Calculus
> classes.  

WRONG!!!!

this "form of torture" is only a form of discrimination when women
have to take the calculus and men don't.

maybe i missed that day in high school health class when they said
that boys and girls look a little different....but when I took all
of my calculus and other advanced math, EVERY student in the classes
appeared to be male!!!!

so how are women being discriminated against???? they could have taken
those classes...the prof didn't walk in on the first day and say...

"no girls allowed"

he came in and said..."75% of you will flunk this class...now open your
books to page...."

> 
> I conclude that my particular experience proves only that women
> can do programming etc., and do it well, in substantial numbers,

no argument from me...i've met competent women engineers. suprisingly
enough, EVERY one of them was from a foreign country! from talking
to them, they never mentioned discrimination or that they were being
shut out.

i suspect that women in this country are barraged with the ideas pushed
by feminists that they stand no chance because the "old boy network" is
out to get them. when american women fail at something, they are conditioned
to say...

  "must be chauvenism that made me fail"

while other women are conditioned to be realisitic and say...

  "i must try harder next time"

as a result, women from other countries try again with more effort
and they succeed in a very difficult field while the american women
file law suits, march around in the streets, and sit around feeling
sorry for themselves and bitter towards men

> and if they've been shut out elsewhere, then the smell of a rat
> is in the air.  
>

more conspiracy stuff????  

ok, i guess it's time i fess up.... men are out to keep women out
of engineering.....happy?

 
> | my experience is that there are very few women who want to take these
> | classes...maybe it's that they've been conditioned not to take them or
> | perhaps women just aren't any good at math and science...who knows.
> 
> But we know that many women are good at math and science, so
> it's conditioning or the nature of the classes or the culture
> they exist in, evidently.
>

fine, then do something to UNcondition them...like i said, i would
love a bunch of fabulous babes to hang around with at work. then after
work we could all go out and get to know one another on a more social
level.

most of the engineers i know are geeks with the personality of a moldy
mop....so i encourage you to get more women in the field!!!!!

 
> | the point is, there are few women in engineering NOT because we sit around
> | and plot and scheme to keep women out...far from it!!! i would love it if
> | there were more women engineers...you ever work 8+ hours a day surrounded by
> | a bunch of smelly guys?!?! jeez, a little change in scenery would be
> | nice once in a while.
> 
> The only way we can get more women in engineering and 
> "engineering" is to figure out why they aren't there already.
> --

i've already told you...because they don't go into engineering and
"engineering" (whatever you meant by that????) when they are in 
college!!!!!

i don't understand what the big mystery is...if only a small number
of women major in engineering in college, it stands to reason that 
there will only be a small number that graduate. further, it stands
to reason that there will be few in the profession...Q.E.D.

doesn't take "two useless years of calculus" to figure this one out.




don 
Newsgroups: alt.feminism