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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:44:09 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2833
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2833

                           Tuesday, July 28, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******

                           Blink Talk Digest # 667

                          Re: nfb bbs censorship??
                               PC KPR For Sale
                                     Re:
                          Re: what is a team player
                          Re: nfb bbs censorship??
                             Re: "blind loyalty"
                        Re: Braille n speak complaint
                        Re: Braille n speak complaint
                             Low cost ocr system
                          Re: nfb bbs censorship??


                                ******


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------



Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship??
From: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Walter Siren)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:396/5.18 - Pontchippi, New Orleans LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 CC> this particular article) what NFB members say are misperceptions of the
 CC> organization.  Seems to me that a group concerned with the image of
 CC> blind people ought, also, to be able (and interested in) promoting its
 CC> own organizational image to potential members as well as to the
 CC> government, airlines and television networks.

     You would think so wouldn't you?

 CC> Most of us, after all, belong to no organization for the blind.  For
 CC> many of us, it is not "laziness" or "disinterest" which keeps us
 CC> unaffiliated, but the belief that no existing organization of the blind
 CC> represents our views and needs and because we feel that too much energy
 CC> is used up on petty politics within the existing organizations.  I know
 CC> that I do not feel that my right to have differing opinions on some
 CC> matters and to act on those opinions would be respected, were I to join.

Carla, if you don't join any organization of the blind,  then how
do you know that your opinions would not be respected if you don't
join any organization.  This is not to push one organization over
another, but how can you say that no organization of the blind has
made its mark on the advances that we have made.  While I respect
your right not to belong to either organization, I don't believe
you can say whether or not your opinions would be respected or
not.

I know that I don't always win my battles, but I have won some of
them, and I know that my opinions have been heard.  I have lost
some that I still believe that I am right about, but the majority
did not see things my way, and I will still say they are wrong, but
I was voted down.  That does not keep me from continuing to try to
get things changed.  I would not belong to any organization which
would not let me voice my opinion, or even continue to have them
after I loose, but in my opinion, while I don't always win, I can
see good things that come from both organizations.  I don't think
that individually we have enough influence to bring about the
changes that are necessary for us to move forward.

Apparently you have not used a guide dog for a very long time,
because years back, there were  a lot of places that would not let
us go into with a dog, and because of work from the organized
blind, we now have laws which has changed that, even though we
still run into problems with this problem, but not nearly as much
as in years gone by.

The problem today is that the younger generation, which you
apparently or a part of, has not had to fight their way through
some of the battles that we the older generation had to fight.  If
you all don't wake up, and after some of us older people pass away,
things could go back to where they were fifty and sixty years ago.
It is a lot easier to keep it than to have to win it back.

Walter

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!396!5.18!Walter.Siren
Internet: Walter.Siren@p18.f5.n396.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: PC KPR For Sale
From: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Tanner)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

PC KPR Model 25 including flatbed scanner, document feeder,
interface card, Print, Braille and tape documentation, with PC KPR
software version 2.00.  Excellent working condition.

For those of you wanting to be able to read your mail, read books,
magazines, etc., but still own a PC or PC XT this is the perfect
answer.  Unlike all your other choices the Kurzweil PC KPR works
equally as well in a PC as in a 386 or 486 machine.  So, if you
can't afford to buy a scanner and a new computer, but you really
need a scanner then $1,800 is all it takes for you to own a scanner
that will make it posible for you to do all that reading you need
to do at far less than any other solution available today.

For more information call me evenings and weekends at (412)
655-0257 or weekdays at (412) 221-2200 ext. 14.  D. T.

... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!168!David.Tanner
Internet: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re:
From: Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jamal Mazrui)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Stew!  I agree the organized blind movement would be more effective
if NFB and ACB were united as one organization.  The major strength of
NFB is ists strong, positive philosophy of blindness whereas the major
strength of ACB is its strongly democratic and grassroots process of
participation.  Perhaps if NFB grows more democratic and ACB develops a
more long-range philosophy, the two organizations will see each other
as less far apart and merger negotiations could take place.
Unfortunately, I don't think this will happen in the forseeable future,
but I hope it can sometime.

Regards,

Jamal

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Subject: Re: what is a team player
From: Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Jamal Mazrui)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Hi Doug!  Thanks for your thoughtful and personal message.  I
understand your reason for joining the NFB and I think it is a sound
one.  I also agree with your analysis of what scenarios wmight occur
after Jernigan leaves--except for one thing.  Jernigan, I'm sure, is
devoting his brilliant mind to setting up a power system with checks
and contingencies such that his desired successors and management
philosophy will continue in his tradition long after.  Consider the NFB
time capsule that he compiled materials for and buried some secret
place a few years ago.  It is to be opened in the NFB's 100th
anniversary year (2040).  It is clear that this man thinks ahead and is
not going to leave his succession to chance (or a self-determined
membership process).

Regards,

Jamal

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!Jamal.Mazrui
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Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship??
From: Joseph.Miller@f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org (Joseph Miller)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:261/1055 - The Keeping Room, Baltimore MD


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

CC>Maybe none of these things are true, but until one of the organizations
CC>actively *cares* what we think, I think there will remain many of us out
CC>here who could be contributing energy to the NFB or some other
CC>organization who can't be bothered to give it the time of day any more
CC>than it can be bothered with what we think or believe.

The politics of blindness is really no different than any other
politics.  There are people willing to join a political party and "get
their hands dirty" trying to express their opinions and bring others
around to believing what they believe.  Then there are those who are
waiting for some magical organization to come into existence that
reflects their beliefs.  When that organization arrives, they'll join
they say.

It's a fantasy.  The NFB and the ACB exist because there are people
willing to do the work to maintain them.  No reasonable person in either
organization thinks that the organization is perfect.  But neither
organization is improved by people sitting on the outside.

CC>Sure, NFB'ers know about the ACB's stance on them, but do you really
CC>know about (or care about)the perception of the NFB amongst we, the
CC>non-alligned blind population?  Articles like "Blind Loyalty" do
CC>contribute to our perception of the NFB, and, for that reason, alone,
CC>ought to warrant calm, rational counter-discussion.  Perhaps you
CC>truly believe no one is listening.  I'm here to tell you that
CC>ain't so.  Some of us are watching closely, hoping to see what
CC>we're looking for some day-- in the NFB or anywhere else.

The NFB is criticized for being "dogmatic" and its members are
criticized for toeing the "party line."  Or, using the same examples
that produce those two descriptions, on could call the NFB "organized"
and its members "disciplined."  I prefer the latter.

Contrary to what's been said here and elsewhere, no one has ever been
thrown out of the organization for simple disagreement with the
leadership.  There are those who made their disagreements very public
and have tried to bring pressure from outside the organization to change
policy.  This is a violation of the Constitution of the organization
and, if you think about it, what could be less democratic in an
organization than trying to influence its members by bringing pressure
from outside its membership?

Within the organization there is lively debate on almost every topic
imaginable.  But the debate stops at the meeting house door.  If an
organization is to have any clout, especially an organization that
represents such a numerical minority in society, it must be able to
speak with one voice.  It serves no useful purpose for an individual
member to break publicly with the leadership over a single issue when
there are many other issues with which they agree.

There are those who can't, or don't want to, understand that dissent
for its own sake is no virtue.  Or that effective leadership requires
willing followers.  No leader that strays too far from his flock will
remain a leader for long.  Dr. Jernigan has been a leader in the
organized blind movement for four decades.  He's going to have his
detractors and his supporters.  You can tell a lot about a man by the
friends--and the enemies--he makes.

I hope you and others with open minds will consider what I've said here.
The organized blind movement would be stronger with your input and your
participation.  You won't always get your way, but you'll be able to
take pride in the positive things that get accomplished.
___
 X OLX 2.2 X Hello, I am part number ||X||||X||X||X||

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!261!1055!Joseph.Miller
Internet: Joseph.Miller@f1055.n261.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: "blind loyalty"
From: Jamal.Mazrui@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Jamal Mazrui)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:101/460.0 - VI/BUG, Holbrook MA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I think Amy Cuningham spent more time personally interviewing Jernigan
and tourning the NFB headquarters than she did with anyone else.  She
learned quickly by observation that despite the fact that he is not an
elected representative of the organization, he is clearly "the boss"
and no one--staff or members--is willing to speak about him in a way
that may be perceived as critical.  It doesn't require a lot of insight
to come to this conclusion--just watch how people treat him at NFB
headquarters, at public meetings, in NFB literature, etc.  Therefore, I
certainly understand why she didn't think it worthwhile as a journalist
to spent a lot of time interviewing NFB leaders such as Homer Page (the
state president in Colorado).  I personally admire much of what Homer
Page has accomplished, but have no doubt that as a state president and
chair of the "Affiliate Action Committee" (whose duty is to monitor and
report signs of controversey to Jernigan) that he would have given
strictly loyal party line.

I think Amy Cuningham should have spoken to others in the
blindness/disability field who are not NFB public figures, and my
understanding is that she did.  Justin Dart, Chair of the President's
Commitee on Employment of People with Disabilities, was quoted with a
positive opinion of Jernigan.  The head of the Consortium of Citizens
with Disabilities was also quoted, though in this case with a critical
statement about NFB's unwillingness to work in concert with other
disability groups.  You mention others that Cuningham coulc have
interviewed but didn't.  That charge could be made against any
journalist since no story can realistically be comprehensive in its
coverage.

I did know a story was being done until Amy Cuningham called me after
hearing about my case.  I supplied her with extensive source
documentation about my case, the same material I distributed to blind
people last year.  Nothing was doctored:  she saw the correspondence
back and forth, including the document that expelled me.  It is not
correct for you to say that she did not look for evidence before
stating her conclusions.  She may not have always quoted the specific
evidence (since this is not an academic article with footnotes), but
she did seek out a lot of evidence from multiple sources.  She spent
several months on the article.  I know this because it was originally
supposed to be published about April she told me.  When I contacted her
later to inquire as to its status, she said that she was running a
draft by Jernigan and then by the magazine's legal counsel to identify
and correct possible factual erros or libelous statements.

The article is not a one-sided critism of the NFB.  Rather, the
difference between this and NFB publications, is that it presents both
sides.  People can then judge for themselves and wigh various factors.
Jamal

s

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------



Subject: Re: Braille n speak complaint
From: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Cumings)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:101/460.0 - VI/BUG, Holbrook MA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

"to me it is a seventeen hundred dollar note taker or a portable perkins
braille writer with speech and much more porbable than a perkins. you
know the old story tim, different strokes for different folks."

Well, Tandy, I think using the bns (either the 640 or the original,
which I have) is like anything else. If all you use it for is taking
notes, then that's all you may believe it's good for. However, if you
push it to its limits, it can be far more than a simple note taker or
Brailler. ,Aside from a note taker, I use my bns as a terminal  and a
speecch synthesizer for my computer, which I bought after my bns.

It's like people who go out and buy a 386 computer and just use it for
word processing. The problem with any type of technology is that people
don't use it to its fulest potential. This isn't meant as a criticism to
you, or to anyone in particular. I have the same problem. I've had my
386 since September and I'm _now just starting to teach myself to use
Wordperfect, although I've had it in my computer for the last three
months.

All I'm saying is, push the 640 to its limits before you dismiss it as
just a glorified note taker. Try hooking it up to your modem and
retrieving messages with it. I never go on-line with telix and my
computer if I'm just retrieving messages, because with the bns there's
no telecommunications program to hastle with.

Good luck with your 640, whatever you decide to do with it. The bns
isn't the _only option out there, but I think it's a viable one.

Some of us like chocolate, others like vanila.

--
Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!101!460.0!Tim.Cumings
Internet: Tim.Cumings@p0.f460.n101.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: Braille n speak complaint
From: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (William Wilson)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89.0 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 TC> Good luck with your 640, whatever you decide to do with it. The
 TC> bns isn't the _only option out there, but I think it's a viable
 TC> one.

Tim,
    Your points about how the BNS, as well as other technological items
we don't always use to their full potential, were good ones indeed.  I
also see that Keith, and undoubtedly others, compare the BNS to notebook
computers, something I too did before becoming a Braille 'n Speak owner,
and frankly, I simply think this is not only not fair, it reflects a
lack of familiarity with the product!

     Most importantly, most of the Braille 'n Speak owners I know in
this city not only don't own computers, they don't even have a desire to
own a computer!  Perhaps this has more to do with mere perception of the
products than anything else, but most definitely, I know of several
people who, although completely comfortable using their BNS for
everything from keeping simple notes to communicating with bulletin
board systems via a modem, have no desire to get involved in the DOS
world to the extent that most of us are involved!  Yes, here in this
echo, we're most likely going to be talking to BNS owners who know the
best of both worlds, but out there in the real world, this isn't always
the case.
    Secondly, the price of the basic 640k Braille 'n Speak is $1299, not
the $1700 earlier stated, and although admittedly this does sound like a
substantial ammount when we hear of the steadily decreasing price of
notebook computers, for this $1299 you get everything you really need,
including speech, interface kit, carrying case, and a unit that is, even
by today's standards, much more portable than even a small notebook and
external synthesizer!  You also get a battery life of up to 20 hours in
most cases, something even the most efficient notebook can't even begin
to come close to!  As we've discussed here before, you have a device
that you can input to in grade 2 braille, send to either a braille
printer, a print printer, or even a DOS computer if one doesn't possess
that computer fear I spoke of earlier, and in most practicle terms, this
is what most people want to do with a device like a Braille 'n Speak,
nothing more and nothing less.

     What I'm saying is, yes, I too used to do the computer/BNS
comparison thing, but this was prior to owning a Braille 'n Speak.  Now
that I do have one though, I view it in totally different terms.  I know
I own one of the smaller laptop computers, but if I'm travelling to a
tutoring client's and they're not equipped with speech on their
computer, I take the Braille 'n Speak, and with speech box mode, no
problem.  If I'm going out of town for a few days and I need to have
access to the board, I take the Braille 'n Speak and a modem, and with
scarcely no addition to my luggage weight or volume, I have that
capability with my Braille 'n Speak, and in most cases without even
taking the battery charger.  If I'm going to some sort of a function
where I may need to take down some phone numbers or notes of some sort,
I just throw the little sucker over my shoulder, and even if I don't use
it once, the Braille 'n Speak is so unobtrusive, it presents no problem
what so ever!

     Maybe it's just one of those things only Braille 'n Speak owners
like you and I can fully appreciate Tim, I don't know, but most
definitely, there arn't too many dissatisfied BNS owners out there, are
there?
                                        Willie

... Even if you're not the lead dog, the view can be interesting!

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Uucp: ..!uunet!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89.0!William.Wilson
Internet: William.Wilson@p0.f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Low cost ocr system
From: David.Tanner@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (David Tanner)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

In a message of <20 Jul 92  21:54:00>, Tandy Way (1:377/6) writes:

 > > >david I am trying to get a friend in to an ocr system as cheaply as
 >possible but still fully functional. the arkenstone system is out of the
 >question. if he has a 386 what  would the cost of the discover package
 >and scanner cost? tandy

I have been quoted $379 for the Discover 386 software locally here
in Pittsburgh, and I am guessing it could be found a little
cheaper.  And, if you used the same scanner Arkenstone is using,
the HP 2P it would probably cost around $1,200.  So, I would guess
the whole thing will come out somewhere around $1,600 to $1,700.  I
am finding that scanners can be a lot different prices in a lot of
different places so shopping around could very easily save several
hundred dollars.  I recently baught a Panasonic Model 506 scanner
for around $500, and am now finding that the suggested retail on
that scanner is over $1,200 and is selling most places for $900 to
$1,100 with it's interface card.

        D. T.

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Subject: Re: nfb bbs censorship??
From: Tom.Gerhart@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Tom Gerhart)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/168 - Braille Bank BBS, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 MF> skillfully enough  that someone not thoroughly acquainted with the
 MF> events described in  passing wouldn't know it.  Although we could
 MF> refute the article, point  by point, it would take quite a ptome
 MF> (since, without chapter-and-verse  proof, no one who opposed us would
 MF> believe us) and, frankly, we don't  have the time to put in on that
 MF> sort of no-win situation; our time is  better spent dealing with the
 MF> real problems of the blind.
Mike,
I have not said much about this subject but felt the need to respond to
your mesg. What about all the time that has been spent on the air plane
seating issue?   I once heard an nfb leader call this issue the Vietnam
for the federation.  As one who has had first hand experience with the
federation for ten years, I would like to hear the untrue claims that
were made in this article.  You complained that she did not use comments
made by Dean Blazie, she also did not have any comments by James Bliss.
Oh, one last question, when was the last time you carried a cup of
coffee around at the center?  Tom g

... Catch the Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

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Internet: Tom.Gerhart@f168.n129.z1.fidonet.org




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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2833 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU