From: blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: What is culture? (was: Brainwashied
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:11:21 GMT
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.


=> In article <7568@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@hri.com 
=> (Bill Lambert) writes:
=> >=> In article <7566@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> 
=> >=> blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:
=> >=> >> [...]
=> >=> >The discussion about whether or not particular cultures are better
=> >=> >than others is somewhat interesting, however, I wish that in this
=> >=> >discussion, the participants might be more careful so as to separate
=> >=> >what are truly cultural elements from other aspects of society
=> >=> >that are economic or perhaps technological when making such
=> >=> >comparisons. Advances in medicine, and such, for example, 
=> >=> >are societal... not cultural. 

=> >In article <1ick7cINN5m0@shelley.u.washington.edu>, 
=> >yoichi@carson.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii) writes:
=> >=> Thanks, this is a good point.  Since this thread started out as
=> >=> a discussion on women's role in society, I assumed "culture" to
=> >=> be "something like the former", but "societal" elements have 
=> >=> crept into the discussion.
=> >=> 
=> >=> Having said that however, I suppose it is possible for a "societal"
=> >=> element to induce a totally new pure "cultural" element. In such
=> >=> a case, one cannot even begin to compare two cultures (one with
=> >=> and one without the "societal" element) because there is nothing
=> >=> to compare.

=> >Sorry, but I beg to differ. There's a lot to compare about cultures,
=> >but whether one is better or worse is rarely one of them.

In article <1993Jan6.003030.20523@news.columbia.edu>, 
km34@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Keith Moulton) writes:
=> 	Yes, I agree.  Adopting a stance of cultural relativism is helpful
=> at getting past natural biases, but... If push comes to shove, I think
=> it is possible to talk about one culture being better than another, although
=> it is largely academic and not particularly practical.  It also gives
=> insecure folks ammunition to disparage people unlike themselves.  It is
=> more productive to make observations which are not couched in comparisons,
=> ie. "Country J is more racist than country U" is less productive than saying
=> "Country J is racist because of reasons blah, blah, blah."

=>     [Lots of good stuff omitted]

Thanks for the comment and I agree in part with your above paragraph.
It is possible to talk about one culture being better than another
on some point, but almost *impossible* to prove, and therefore an
academic exercise for the most part, as you noted.

=> >Unfortunately, racism and xenophobia have almost been universally
=> >a part of most cultures at one time or another, certainly not
=> >excluding recent Western and World history.
=> 
=> 	Why don't you mention sexism?

Sorry... I forgot.

=> 	[more good stuff about recent American racist attitudes]
=> 
=> I believe that some rights of people are unalienable and that they are
=> born with these rights.  When a culture takes these rights away from
=> some of its people, it is worthy of criticism.  And even if one racist
=> country calls another country racist, the truth (or untruth) of the statement
=> is not affected by its origin.  (Just because the pot called the kettle
=> black, doesn't mean that the kettle isn't black.)

I appreciate the impetus above from Mr. T. Jefferson (my hero), a
high-minded idealist... but also a practicing racist.

=> 	For example, the ancient Mayans had a highly refined, harmonious
=> culture, worthy of our fascination and even respect.  However, the frequent
=> sacrifices of humans, particularly children, by having their hearts ripped
=> out while they were alive is to me worthy of criticism.  The Mayans believed
=> that there culture would become chaotic if the gods were not appeased by
=> these sacrifices.

Now I know you revile the religious practices of the ancient Mayans,
but they sacrificed some so that the Gods would not take the many.
In fact, when the conquistadors forced them to cease this barbaric
practice, shortly thereafter the european viral strains wiped out
their entire population. Had they continued the sacrifices (and
managed to rips the hearts out of quite a few of the Spanish soldiers
as well) the Gods may have treated them quite more favorably.

Well... we think this is stupid, of course, but who is to say that
the ancient Mayans aren't sitting in Mayan heaven right now laughing
because the World Wars were caused by the Gods because of the lack
of an outlet for our bloodlust.

Stupid again, of course, but I'm just taking on the Mayan cultural
biases, to argue points that can't be argued by any common means.

=>     In Japan, men control the cultural apparatus by which women decide
=> their future and happiness.  I'm not saying that Japanese women aren't
=> happy--I'm saying that they don't have many choices, and that for some
=> women, their right to pursue happiness has been abridged.
=> 	I don't think I am being too quick to judge--the status of women
=> in Japan has been well documented.  In my travels to Japan, I did not
=> meet any unhappy, bitter women--but neither did I find any willing to
=> question their lot.  But I'm sure they're out there.

There are a lot that question their lot. They just don't get so
many answers. The raising of children is still a high priority
for most Japanese, and until there is an infrastructure that
supports dual family and job concerns in a big way, many women
will still opt to be mommy. But they will happy at it as well. For
the most part, that choice is still well respected, and as yet
most of them don't feel like shitheads because they quit a job
in order to nurture a family. They take that assignment quite
seriously and energetically.

=> >I guess I wouldn't be so quick to put down a people wholesale,
=> >even if many members display basically the same attitudes 
=> >as my parents or grandparents did.
=> >
=> >- Bill Lambert
=> >
=> >PS - As I looked at the list of cultural points or desires
=> >as I wrote about, I noticed that in America these days, we
=> >are quite far from a consensus on how to achieve most of
=> >them. It's seems to be important to our overall well-being
=> >as a culture to have that consensus. Don't you think so?

=> 	Yes, but we're going to be OK.  I think that what most Americans
=> want is a culture that is multicultural.  It's really hard to come
=> up with a consensus in such a situation.
=> 	Limited relativism is the way to go.  Gotta go.

I admire and share much of your optimism. I believe American culture
is in the process of redefining itself, and it needs it. The dream
of America is in the process of being fulfilled for everybody,
not just white males. We've come a long way, and still have a long
way to go... but still moving in the right general direction.

- Bill Lambert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan