From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: CHRIST WAS JUST A MAN !!!!
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 05:39:35 GMT


markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU wrote:
> is actually supported by the texts and the historical evidence"? I find
> most interest in seeing just how close Jesus was to traditional Judaism.
> Jewish NT scholars have been very forceful in emphasisng the jewishness of
> Jesus.  I read the introduction to a book on Jesus and Judaism which pointed

Callum replies:

>>Does this really surprise you?  Jesus was a Jew, and he said himself that
>>he came to fulfill the Law.  He obeyed God's (jewish) Law perfectly.  That
>>was the only way his sacrificial death could have any meaning.  Also, if
>>you consider that he was God, it would be pretty strange if he didn't
f>>ollow his own laws.

No it does not surprise me . It surprises a lot of christians, at least in
my experience, that Jesus doesn't say a great deal that could be considered
original in the context of Judaism. I don't have any problems with this.
After all, there is little "new" under the sun. But a lot of christians
learn that Jesus presented this radical break from Jewish practice.
I was taught this at the catholic school I went to. I was taught that 
Jesus was radically different from his Jewish predecessors . This is 
of course not the case. The point I was making is that christaianity has
de-judaisised Jesus. i.e taken him out of his Jewish context. Christians
do not study the religous history of the first century. They do not
learn about things like charismatic Judaism (well most don't. I am generalising
of course). So when you read that Jesus was acclaimed by the voices of 
heaven as "Son of God", this looks impressive. But what about,say, 
Hanina Ben Dosa who was acclaimed as "son of God" by a heavenly voice
and who commanded ther demons? What about Abba Hilkiah who calls God "Abba"?
just as Jesus does? I think Jesus should be putback into Judaism and 
reavaluated in this light. 

> out that all of Jesus teachings can be traced to , often in the exact words,
> teachings by other prominent Jewish figures such as Hillel. (Hillel was
> once asked to summarise the Torah while standing on one leg. He said" Do nothing to others which is hateful to you.......and if your neighbour has no shirt
> then give him yours. That is the whole Torah,the rest is commentary. Go and

>>Something interesting we found in our Sermon on the Mount bible studies was
>>that (as you mention above) the Torah says basically "Don't do anything to
>>others that you wouldn't like" - it's a negative statement.  However, when
>>Jesus summarises God's law he says, "Do to others as you'd have them do to you"
>>which is a positive, active statement.  Jesus was for positive active love,
>>not negative rule following.

This is a point which is often made. I have seen in many books Hillel 
quoted as saying " Do nothing to others that is hateful to you". Fullstop.
But he goes on to say, and "neighbour has no shirt then give him yours".
That is the whole Torah in Hillels view. This is just what Jesus was saying
put in another form, and not a very different form at that. The first part is
indeed a negative statement, the second is a positive statement. So you
see how a lot of christian writing has misrepresented Judaism. Hillel and
Jesus say the same thing, but by selective quotations we have this idea 
presented that Judaism in the first century was all about negative rule
following, while Jesus was all about positive love. To some one like Hillel,
Judaism was all about positive love too.


>>regards,
  >>  Callum
Ditto, Mark C.
.


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