From: abbasa@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Please leave Baha'is out of this issue(Re: Israel..
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:17:22 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Oct8.141830.7178@ryn.mro4.dec.com>, hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim) writes:
> abbasa@ul.ie, Abbas, you write:
> 
> A>In a her bid to cover up her realtions with Israel and her maters, MKO(
> A>an anti-Iran organisation mostly comprised of non-moslems factions, like 
> A>Bahais, and financed by Saddam, CIA, and Musad) is desperately trying to 
>   ^^^^^^
> A>fabricate some sort of link between Islamic Iran and Israel. But I doubt
> A>that these kind of tricks will help her a lot. 
> 
> In article <saied.718397804@cwis>, saied@cwis.unomaha.edu (Saied*) replies to 
> Abbas:
> 
> S>Also, since you seem to know of "her" relations with Israel and
> S>financial support for "her" from Saddam, CIA, and Musad, why do
> S>not you present one (i.e., "vahed" since you know Arabic better)
> S>authentic document to support your claim. Note that I am not
> S>asking for proof of "her" being mostly non-Muslims and Baha'i.
>                                                          ^^^^^^
> 
> I respectfully challenge both Abbas and Saied to produce documents which 
> prove such an association. Talk is after all <.01$/metric ton :-).
> 
> Baha'is have been persecuted from the early days by being identified as the
> agents of English and Russian Imperialism. As time went on Baha'is were 
> also identified with Israel, USA, SAVAK, etc..., etc... Dictates of time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> appear to suggest it more fashionable to these days to associate the Baha'is 
> with the Mojahedin-e Khalgh. God knows what will be the dictate of fashion 
> tomorrow!


It is not simply true that Bahais are being proscuted from early days. They
were very well-off during Shah regime. All key posts were held by them.
Amir Abbas Hoveda (sp. ?), a Bahai, was probably the longest serving prime 
miniter to the extinct Shah of Iran.  The notorious SAVAK ( For who do not 
know, Savak was a seccret police of Shah which excuted and tortured 
the opponets to the regime in a barbaric fashion) was overwhelmingly staffed 
by Bahais.  If after revolution a lot of Bahais were proscuted or got 
hanged, it was because of their crimes, which they did during shah time. 
Ordinary Bahais are safe and sound like other peacefull citzens of the islamic
republic. Todays we hear a lot of tales about Bahai proscution in Iran. 
Most of them are forged and are a part of propaganda compaign started by the 
west to discredit Iran. The hypocrisy of the western media is cleary exposed 
when one look at the their criminal silence over the vast humane rights 
violation during shah time.

Unfortunately, I forgot to bring with me a big bag of documents when I 
got here:-)  

> Baha'i Faith is non-political in principal and the teachings of the Faith
> discourage its adherents from associating with any political organizations. 
> If any Baha'i participates in any political activities that equates to the
> removal of their administrative rights (i.e. loss of their membership in
> the community.). Perhaps the following quotation will serve to convey this 
> point for the Nth time to the readership of these groups and the posters:


what about those Bahais who were high ranking official during Shah regimes
and were involved in murdering ordinary citizen of Iran? Are they considerd 
Bahai or not? If not, was that made clear to them when they were in power?



> 
> "In every country where any of this people [i.e. Baha'is] reside, they must
>  behave towards the government of that country with loyalty, honesty and
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  truthfulness. This is that which hath been revealed at the behest of Him 
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Who is the Ordainer, the Ancient of Days."
> 
> 				Baha'u'llah  -Tablets of Baha'u'llah-


The loyality to the govenment or country?  Loyality to the country is a better
principle.  If one is loyal to a country he/she would be loyal to a government
which is loyal to the people.  What you people will do if the governmet is
autocratic? The people who were faithful to shah they probably practised the
same teaching, that is, loyality to the govenment of the time.  I wonder why
they forgot this principle soon after islamic revolution?    




> 
> For homework assignment I leave the implication of this teaching for you to 
> contemplate on.
> 
> It is important to point out the underlying philosophy for the Baha'i 
> non-participation in political affairs. Abdu'l-Baha says in reference 
> to religion and politics:
> 
> "Religion is concerned with things of the spirit, politics with things 
> of the world. Religion has to work with the world of thought, whilst the 
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> field of politics lies with the world of external conditions.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> It is the work of the clergy to educate the people, to instruct them, to 
> give them good advice and teaching so that they may progress spiritually. 
> With political questions they [i.e. clergy] have nothing to do.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> 						`Abdu'l-Baha
 

Here there is contradiction in Bahaism. Eralier on you said that any
Bahai who participate in politics is removed from your community and
now you are saying only celrgy has nothing to do with politics.
 

If spirit is purified, it will affect positively the human body, won't 
it?.  In other words, if a man has a purified spirit, he will be a man of 
wisdom and will be uncorruptabl, right?  If we look at the world politics, 
we will notice that all troubles in the world is caused by the bunch of 
those polticians who are materialistic, corrupt and oppressors. This are so
because they have got dirty spirit.  Why should we leave the important job
governing to such bad people?  Why  should not those people who have healthy
spirit as well as heathy mind come forward and take control of the world in 
their hands and relieve innocent people of this trouble? 





> Please note that Abdu'l-Baha categorically rejects interference of religion 
> with politics. Eventhough, Abdu'l-Baha distinguishes religion from politics 
> and discourages the participating of clergy in politics, yet, one can easily 
> see a relationship between what Abdu'l-Baha identifies as "the world of 
> thought" and "the world of external conditions". A passive or indirect role 
> for religion can readily be seen, thus, its impact on politics. What kind of 
> role does religion play in the society?
> 
> Abdu'l-Baha elaborates on the implications of this in "The Secret of 
> Divine Civilization":
> 
> "With the advent of the Prophets of God, their power of creating a real union, 
> one which is both external and of the heart, draws together malevolent peoples 
> who have been thirsting for one another's blood, into the one shelter of the 
> Word of God. Then a hundred thousand souls become as one soul and unnumbered 
> individuals emerge as one body... Nothing can be effected in the world, not 
> even conceivable, without unity and agreement, and the perfect means for 
> engendering fellowship and union is true religion. `Hadst Thou spent all the 
> riches of the earth, Thou couldst not have united their hearts; but God hath 
> united them...'[Qur'an 8:64]"

> 							p. 71-74

It is totally unrealistic to think that by just preaching one day
will come when every one will be peaceful. You will never see that day.
What about those who are being killed and tortured today? If you are 
allowing the oppressors to rule, the world would remain a house of troubles
and you would never be able to heal the body of the world until cancerous
tissues are cut off.





Asad.