HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wohfuchi@splash.Princeton.EDU (Wataru Ohfuchi)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Static line?
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:58:54 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <27744@sophia.inria.fr> luong@sophia.inria.fr writes:
>In article <BtICr3.EMG@cs.dal.ca>, gauthier@ug.cs.dal.ca (Paul Gauthier) writes:
>|> Is this a common practice (using static line for top-roping)? What are the
>|> pros and cons? I have been climbing for only one season, so don't want to
>|> try anything "out of the norm" without first bouncing it off of knowledgable
>|> people like you netfolk.
>
>To my knowledge, it is not a common practice. I have almost never seen people
>clmb with a static rope. They are used only for rappelling, I guess. For
>top-roping, when they wnat to save money, people will use a very used "normal"
>(ie dynamic) rope, and since a rope has only a limited life, anyone who is
>in climbing for a suuficient amount of time owns a used rope. A good
>(labelled) static rope is not so much cheaper than a normal one.
>
>The reason seems clear to me: usually, before top-roping a route, somebody
>has to lead it to get the rope through, and leading with static ropes is
>known to be unsafe. You can certainly change the rope after the lead, but 
>it's a real annoyance, and ropes are annoying enough, even used the right
>way. By the way, I used to like the fact that a party should not try a climb
>if one of the member is not able to lead it, but times changes.
>
>One advantage of a static rope for top-roping is precisely lack of 
>elasticity, I imagine it would be convenient for top-roping in Verdon...
>
>Tuan.

  What Tuan says is true on real rocks here (the Gunks is my main rock
area), too. But I have an impression that static ropes are now used for
toproping at climbing gyms. Well, I've observed only two gyms (the
university climbing wall here and Boulder Rock Club in Colorado), though.
Let me make sure: static ropes are never used for leading at BRC for
an obvious reason (see below).
  What I can think of about pros and cons of static ropes are;
  Pros; Less expensive, but not much.
        It's easier for you to hangdog like a hell because of their small
          elongation property.
  Cons; Less shock absorbing ability, but I've never had a problem with
        this toproping.
  Just for your info.
...Wataru
-- 
  ...Wataru Ohfuchi
     Program in Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, Princeton University
     w1o@gfdl.gov _or_ wohfuchi@splash.princeton.edu
From: rob@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Offwidths
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:38:28 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


Marty Garrison (martyg@Ingres.COM) wrote:
: In article <1992Sep3.084013.58592@cc.usu.edu> sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
: >Greg Hill writes:
: >
: >
: >There is a climb somewhere in the peak district, UK, probably at curbar if I
: >remember and possibly called Goliath or similar (It's been a long time!).
: >A 30' gritstone ugly of which the guide says "the energy expended on this climb
: >is usually enough to light Sheffield for a week. The difficulties depend on
: >how well you can swim"
: >
: >Now that's offwidth technique!
: >
: I believe thats the left eliminator, I did it a number of years ago
: and found it to be somewhere around 10c.
: 
: Marty


I am not sure but I think Bob the Ex-Pat is correct, I dont have my full
selecetion of guides here in the office but Goliath gets E1 and is 
somewhat unusual. I'll look it up and post description

Rob.
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Looking for Investors for a Santa Cruz,CA Climbing Gym
Date: 4 Sep 1992 05:54:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

At the present time, a request for investors is being made
to help fund the opening of a climbing gym in Santa Cruz, CA
next to the Seabright Pub.  An initial share price of $10,000
is being offered for limited partnership in this project.

If you have any questions or comments please contact Tom Davis
at (408)423-1230.

ps - this may be on the fringe as an appropriate net posting, but
since a climbing gym is of benefit to those in the area, I felt
it was OK.  If this posting offends anyone, I am truly sorry.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 15:45:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.143922.19009@samba.oit.unc.edu>
   cptully@med.unc.edu writes:
>Another question (to everybody) if you know you are going to be doing a
>lot of climbing that requires a full length rappel, why not use double
>ropes (say 9mm in stead of 11mm) and not have to carry a second rope
>just for rappeling?  Or am I completely off base?  Are double ropes not
>good for rappeling on?

This is one of the advantages of using double (or twin) ropes.  Lead the
climb on double ropes (I use two 8.5mm's), bring up the second, and join
the ropes for the rappel.  No problem.

Barry Shelton                                        Question Authority!
barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com                   Resist much, obey little.

Standard disclaimer.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Rope condition questions
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:58:03 GMT

rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
: Is there a rapel device that dosen't twist the rope because I'm getting tired
: of unwinding my rope after every climb I do.

As Eugene has mentioned, any of the brake-bar type devices will work.

1) biner brake (crossed carabiners)
2) carabiner w/brake bar
3) Rappel rack (heavy, but good for 250+ foot drops)
4) Sticht plates (seem to keep the rope from twisting too much but not
   entirely)
5) Lowe Tuber or Black Diamond ATC
6) Petzl "Bobbin" descenders
7) Certain ALP descenders I have seen
8) Bachli Seilbremse
9) Others????

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
From: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Reply-To: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Distribution: usa
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:54:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.170758.3090@Cadence.COM> bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.211037.7498@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.181307.27758@nas.nasa.gov>,
>>A decently placed friend or TCU *alone* should hold any force a
>>second could normally generate.  Two of the equalized should be very
>>strong indeed.  Since they were found intact, one can assume that
>>they pulled.  This is something that shouldn't happen.  The modes I
>>can think of that might permit this include:  placing them behind an
>>"expando flake", using an excessivly flaring crack, using a dirty
>>gravelly crack, using a crack that is too wide allowing the cams to
>>invert.  Thus if the belay stance is definately known, examining it
>>for each of these conditions could shed some light.
>
>  Along this line, I was wondering how people feel about the solidness
>of good nut placements vs. good active camming placements. I tend to
>trust a good nut placement more, but not to the extreme that
>my partner does (I've never hardly even seen him place a cam). 

I am concerned about this too.  A friend who is a longtime valley boy
climbs with a rack full of friends, and nothing else (quickdraws maybe).
(the guy does climbs like 'astro man' for lunch, so he's pretty hard to
argue with about his techniques)
I personally like to use dynamic pro only when on leads where speed of
placement might make the difference between screaming with joy or
terror.  Good nut placements are much harder to find, but I think they
are bomber.  I always back up active cams placements with static stuff
at a belay.

I'd like to do a mathematical treatment of the expansion of active cams,
in order to get a better idea of what the most important variables are.
Since I'm going on vacation soon, I may have time to do this.  If so, 
I'll post my results.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Offwidths
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:35:05 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.084013.58592@cc.usu.edu>,
sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
>Greg Hill writes:
>Now that's offwidth technique!
>
>Has anyone worked out how to appraise an offwidth and decide exactly which
>bits to tape? For example, on comfortably numb at J-tree I prudently taped
>my elbows as well as my hands, but could have done with some on my chin too!
>I guess the problem is, if you tape too much and really screw it up, when
>you arrive at the hospital they will assume that you've already been treated :-)
>
There is an excellent video that demonstrates the correct method of
taping up for OW.  "The Mummy", staring Boris Karlof.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:50:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.225756.18576@microsoft.com>,
timha@microsoft.com (Tim Harris) writes:
>>>
>>> PS (in response to another article):  Most belay devices do provice
>>> dynamic belays.  See the warning letter by Ed Leeper in _Climbing_
>>> regarding the (non-dynamic) GriGri.
>>
>>Could you shortly describe the warning letter of Ed Leeper?
>>
While I understand Leeper's concerns, what with ravenous lawyers
inhabiting the world, I'm not that convinced of this whole static
vs. dynamic belay device business.  I held a number of substantial
falls including at least one that came close to the infamous "worst
case" scenario.  In every case, the belay device, a sticht plate,
was in the locked off configuration.  The falls were hard enough to
lift me violently off the ground to the extent that there was a very
small amount of slack in the anchor.  I'm quite sure that there was
no slippage in the belay device.  My question is:  so how would this

For what it is worth, I don't think a body belay with the brake hand
in locked off position is very dynamic either.  A number of years
ago I went through the routine where you have to catch a 120 lb
block of concrete after about a to feet free fall.  I don't recall
any slippage or rope burn.  This isn't to say it wan't a shocking
experience -- it felt like being slapped across the small of the
back and upper hips by 2x4.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:15:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.170758.3090@Cadence.COM>,
bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson) writes:
>  Along this line, I was wondering how people feel about the solidness
>of good nut placements vs. good active camming placements. I tend to
>trust a good nut placement more, but not to the extreme that
>my partner does (I've never hardly even seen him place a cam).
>
Yup.  There's something about an inert lump of metal vs. a gadget
with several moving parts that is reassuring.  (There's also
something about just being able to "plug in" a friend when the run
out is getting a little desperate.)
From: luong@naxos.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:31:49 GMT
Reply-To: luong@sophia.inria.fr
Organization: Inria Sofia Antipolis

In article <BtKA87.s5.2@cs.cmu.edu>, cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline) writes:


|> In answer to your new point, consider the number of climbers who
|> improperly use belay devices:  Too many people completely drop the
|> braking end of the rope when switching grip;  Others hold both ropes
|> in one hand;  And plenty of climbers routinely hold the rope in a
|> non-locked-off position, relying on reflexes to bring the belay under
|> control in a fall.  There is a real risk of losing control of the
|> belay as the rope whips through a belay device when the above
|> techniques are employed - belay devices (other than the GriGri) are by
|> no means self locking.

I have been using for two years now the New-Alp belay plate (I dont 
know about its diffusion). I weights less that a carabiner, and allows you:
- To belay two seconds *independently* (even if one climbs fast, whereas
the other one is hanging, you can belay him easily. Try with another device,
or without any, and tell me more)
- It is self locking, and it could be operated only with one hand (allows you
to relax, and save some time by eating while belaying...).
If highly recommend this simple and very efficient device, it prevents all
the reisks that you mention.

|> Again, let me say that I am not necessarily  recommending the body
|> belay for everyday use.  I am, however, surprised by the reaction of
|> so many climbers who seem to be afraid of the technique for the wrong
|> reasons.

Yes, attention is a wrong reason. The right one is that even if you pay a lot
of attention, it remains difficult to stop the fall or hold the climber.

Tuan.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: paale@stud.cs.uit.no (Paal Ellingsen)
Subject: Leading on 9mm?
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:18:49 GMT

I'm having a terrible dilemma right now. My old 10.5 mm rope is getting ready for
replacement, and I'd really like to try 2x9mm double rope instead this time.
However, there is one drawback about the 9mm that I don't like: I'll have to
bring along 2 ropes, even if I'm just going for a 1-pitch-climb in the afternoon,
or... 
My question is: is it safe to lead on a single 9mm, as long as you don't get any
long runouts? Accoording to the technical spesifications, a good 9mm can take
more UIAA-falls than my old 10.5mm, but are there any good arguments against
using a 9mm for leading?

                                                     Paul
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 01:15:26 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug28.204228.16308@mcnc.org> ekp@mcnc.org
(Edward Pavelchek) writes:
>I like to use nuts 1) because they're lighter  2) so I'll trust them
>when needed.
>
>The strongest argument for nuts at belays is so the leader will have the
>Friends for the next pitch. 

Ah!  The kind of belayer a leader likes to have.  8^)  Always thinking ahead
to those thin, small shallow water grooves: too flared and slick for stoppers,
while slipping off the holds.
But you know, you inevitability get to some point where you need the
only Stopper which was placed at the belay.  Damned if you do, damned if you
don't.  You can share my rope any time.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: leathley@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Scott Leathley)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: unexpected hazards of climbing
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:15:24 GMT
Organization: Boeing

Speaking of Porcupines, the funniest natural hazard I ever saw took place in
Mt. Robson Provincial Park with a Porcupine.  A ranger was puuting up a new
trail sign, either campground or latrine indicator, I forget which.  No sooner
had he finish attaching the sign to the post, when a Porcupine came waddling
along, climbed the post, and began munching away on the sign.  Maybe the sign
read "Please don't feed the animals" :-)  I noticed on my last trip to Robson
that they had changed all the signs to metal.
-- 
       !!! IGNORING WHAT I SAY IS THE RULE, NOT THE EXCEPTION !!!
Scott Leathley      \\ leathley@bcstec.boeing.com // "Climbing may be hard,
Boeing D&SG 7-6766   \\   uunet!bcstec!leathley  //   but it's easier than
M/S 9F-36  657-8311   \\\\\\\  ###         ///////    growing up."
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Worst belays
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:40:45 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Aug31.142011.8216@odin.corp.sgi.com>
bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey) writes:
>In article <1992Aug29.011526.26625@nas.nasa.gov>,
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>|> <stuff deleted> ... Damned if you do, damned if you
>|> don't.  ...<more stuff deleted>
>
>This sometimes says it all and gave me an idea for a new thread or two
>(sorry for yanking this out of context Eugene...)

Hey, no problem.  That's how the net works.

>1) What is the worst belay anchor you've ever encountered (must be ON-ROUTE)?

No anchor.  You yell down.  "I can't get anything in (but it's a ledge
[no cracks, nothing].)  Don't fall."  I have ambitions that someday I would
like to do the Matterhorn north Face, and it's like this.

>2) What is the most uncomfortable belay "stance" you've ever encountered?

Something which has no ledge, is too low angle to "hang from" maybe the
various ledgeless climbs on the Weeping Wall at Suicide.  Knee pads
are useful.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: offwidth
Date: 1 Sep 92 05:59:54 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

Where else do you expect to use your #4 Friends, Tube chocks, and Big Bros?
Maybe a #3 Friend if you are lucky.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:18:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: yuma.Sep04.161822.32805
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Aug28.102715.16677@hellgate.utah.edu> allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson) writes:
>I perfer >a 100m rope rather two 50m ropes.  Then you never have to worry about
>the knot.  Unfortunately though, my 100m rope (aka the pig) was buried in
>Alaska this spring.

Yes, but coiling that mother is a pain.  And you always have to thread 50m of
it throught the anchor, rather than just thread an end and tie a knot.
I finally retired my "pig" 100m rope, in favor of two twin 50s, as
climbing partners started grumbling about how old it was.  After five years
of coiling that thing in mittened hands, I just couldn't bring myself to buy
another one, despite its advantages.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: boots
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:38:00 GMT

In article <17te3bINN6i7@agate.berkeley.edu>,
stanford@spark (Adam Stanford) writes:
>I'm interested in buying some plastic boots, mainly for
>glacier travel.  Can anyone offer some advice about what
>to look for in the way of features, brands and prices?
>
I just bought a pair myself so while I can't speak from extensive
experience, I can at least tell you how I went about making my
choice.  Since glacier travel is more like hiking than technical
climbing, I concentrated on comfort and (light) weight.  I also
tried on as many different brands as possible before making a
decision.  I walked around the shops in various models.  They all
feel wierd, but some are more wierd than others. The places you need
to watch for are pressure on the shins, do your toes slid forward
and touch the front when standing on a downhill slope, can you
wiggle your toes, does it "bite" anywhere, etc.

Warmth is another consideration
If the glacier in mind is on Denali you should be
looking for a much warmer boot than if you are mainly interested in
the lower 48.  Be sure to try on the boots with the socks you will
wear.  Related to warmth is altitude.  Some inner boots swell a
little at higher altitude with the result that circulation could be
cut off.  (REI was sued about this a couple of years ago!)

Anyway, I finally choose a pair of Kolfach Viva Softs.  I got them
at Marmot in Berkely for about $200.  (Marmot has the widest
selection this time of year and the most helpful staff.)  I was
concerned with how practicle they might be on approaches (getting
old and feeble so I try not to carry extra anything including foot
gear) so I tried walking up Mt. Dana in them this week end.  After
all the horror stories from friends about walking in plastic boots,
I found them surprisingly comfortable though awkward.  Check back
next week if you want my impressions after wearing them up Shasta.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:52:58 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <la5204INN7ph@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>
>When you are pushing
>the envelope, there are times when you are not completely safe, some
>people call this being out of control, other call it being in there
>element!

It depends on the outcome -- the difference between heros and fools
is survival.  Is survival a product of luck?  Maybe, maybe not.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 25 Aug 92 09:11:58 PDT
Organization: Disorganized Organization

In article <1992Aug25.120014.15444@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
> In article <1992Aug24.202903.350@halfdome.sf.ca.us> bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
> (Bob Pasker) writes:
> }because to hold a body belay, you have to have your hand crossed in front
> }of you in a "locked off" position. holding your control hand at your side or
> }scratching your ankle with your control hand pinky means you have to MOVE IT
> }and quickly to the locked off position.
> Gaaak!  To me, you never have an option to move your control hand anywhere
> but on the rope.  The hell with your itchy ankle.

you don't understand: it is possible to scratch your ankle with your
pinky while still holding the control rope.  trust me on this one.
the problem is that if you're using a body belay, the rope is not
locked off.  with a belay device, the rope is locked up.

> }not in ease of use, but, uh, in degrees of freedom for your control
> }hand.
> I tend to be rather picky about who is on the other end of the rope when
> I am on belay.  Suffice it to say that someone who doesn't pay attention
> or believes in "degrees of freedom for your control hand" is promptly 
> disqualified.
>        hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 

good, cause i would have a hard time trying to belay someone who 
was hang-gliding.  do you rappel down when the thing high enough?

-- 
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
--