From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Annoying rhetorical habits
Date: 7 Oct 92 02:57:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Oct6.072433.2107@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.035625.18032@samba.oit.unc.edu> Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi) writes:
>>> 
>>[...]
>>>Educating people about the existence of human life at conception could
>>>be seen as a first step.  For once people know that, I am hoping that
>>>our fellow brothers and sisters general sense of social responsibility
>>>when it comes to the dignity of human life everywhere will realize that
>>>more is at stake here than just the mother having a "mere medical procedure."
>> 
>
>One pregnant mother once commented that she had a sonogram done and after
>seeing the sonogram "no one would ever have an abortion."  You may throw
>me off for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean certain things don't
>exist.  The pregnant mother was defintely moved by the sonogram experience.
>Whatever "education" was done in the process of the sonogram, it produced
>a positive change in her.  Any thought of abortion was quickly removed
>from her head.
>
>There are also instances where the mother has a miscarriage and loses
>some "human tissue" in the house.  Her doctor requested for her (and her
>husband) to look for the "human tissue."  When they did find, the "human
>tissue" they broke into tears.  That "human tissue" to them was as human
>as anybody else.  They mourned for their loss.
>
	Assuming that these anecdotes actually occurred, I still fail to see
their relevance to my initial point.  You will also find cases of pro-lifers
who had an emotional experience that convinced tham to become pro-choice.  Am
I therefore justified in saying that "educating people that a z/e/f is not
a human being is an important first step.  Once my fellow brothers and sisters
realize that the only human life here belongs to the woman, their general sense
of social responsibility and commitment to individual freedom will move them
to support a woman's right to choose.  Of course, not everyone realizes that
a woman's rights are paramount.  Some still think that a zygote is a human
being."  (?)
	As a pro-lifer, you would probably find this offensive, especially
since it implies that you can hold this position only through ignorance of
the "truth".  You shouldn't expect pro-choicers to be any less offended by
what you wrote.

>Changes in attitude occured because certain things which weren't evident
>to the people involved suddenly became apparent.  The unborn, to them,
>became much more "human" than they originally envisioned. 
>
	You are presuming that *every* pregnant woman is identical to those
in your anecdotes.  I know personally of some who aren't.  Why is your
anecdotal evidence more persuasive than mine?

>There are tons of people who say they are "against abortion."  If you
>are against abortion, wouldn't you at least give people a chance to know
>exactly what they are dealing with?
>
	I am neither for nor against it, personally; I believe it is a
matter of individual choice, not a subject  for State fiat.  And I am totally
in favor of anyone facing *any* surgical procedure being given any information
which they desire in order to make a decision.  I am *not* in favor of State-
mandated propaganda either for or against these procedures.  Can you say the
same?  If a woman contemplating an abortion has no interest in your literature,
is it acceptable for her to decline, or would you force her to read it?
>
[...]
>BTW, there are pro-choice people who do support some means of "educating" 
>whether it be a sonagram, better education in HS, etc.  So why don't you 
>get on their case too.
	Because they're not in favor of *forcing* it on people.  And there is
a difference between education and propagandizing.  The former communicates
factual information.  The latter treats opinion as fact.
>
[...]
>
>The people in the two situations above were probably very intelligent
>people.  But yet, they were very moved by their experiences.  How can this
>be?  
>
	Beats me.  Why don't you ask them?  The fact remains that you still
assume that one can disagree with your position only as a result of ignorance
or misunderstanding.  You still refuse to even contemplate the possibility
that people of good will and intelligence can disagree on this.  That was my
point.

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'

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