From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:43:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.233626.19962@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>I though the penal system was supposed to REHABILITATE people.  Yeah,
>
>	Where did you get that idea?  It is not intended to rehabilitate 
>anyone, and never has been.  Penal is short for penalize.

Are we going to waste time arguing semantics?  Okay, mea culpa.  I
should have said "justice" instead of "penal."  Happy now? 

>>right.  If we have to kill them because we're failing to rehabilitate
>>them, then we're not doing it right.  It's like a society that says that
>>they have no abused children because when they find one, they kill it.
>>We should be finding out WHY our culture keeps turning out loonies, not
>>letting them get loony and then kacking `em.
>
>	Your theory, part of the overall "life as a day care center
>for adults" world view, is shared by some, but fortunately not most,
>adults.

Oh, please.  All I'm saying is that if we are turning out a large enough
number of fucked-up people that we are forced to gear a substantial part
of our society toward dealing with them, we should be looking for the
root cause of the trouble.  Kindly do not lump me in as a fuzzy-headed
moralist who wants to just love everybody -- thereby casting yourself in
the part of worldy realist out to inject a little reality into the lives
of those of us poor souls afflicted with rose-colored-glasses-itis.

Wathc it, you're snide condescension is showing.  (Mine, of course, is
too, but I openly admit it.)  I'm not after a fucking day-care center,
and I resent your putting words to that effect in my mouth.  I am saying
that a culture that has so many lunatics to deal with should wonder why
there ARE so many lunatics to deal with.  Get a grip.   

>	Criminals, for the most part, do crime because they dig crime.
>They have discovered that life is not a day care, and that they can
>really do whatever they want and get away with it most of the time.

Really?  All of them?  Are you saying that a drugrunner goes out and
risks their lives SOLELY because they get off on it?  Some do -- and
some red-blooded, law-abiding citizens do, too -- and some recognize the
utter stupidity of being honest when the crooks make more money.  They
do what they do because they get rich at it, many of them.  Why?  Is it
because the money just drops down out of the skies, or is it because
there is enough of a demand at large to make it profitable for them? 
And who is it demanding these drugs?  I've met enough white, upper
class, well-monied college dweebs who talk about how the damned lower
classes destroy the cities and follow it up by passing around a pipe and
doing gummies with the latest batch of coke to recognize hypocrisy when
it rears its ugly head.  No, I'm not lumping you in with them.  But, you
must admit that the tone of your letter is a little -- smug?  Even
condescending.  Perhaps snotty?  

There are more black men who are crooks and criminals than in college.
Are you seriously saying that that's just because black people are
immoral and dig on preying in the rest of us?  There isn't the slightest
hint of a societal pressure toward turning out more black crooks than
Ph. D.'s?  Maybe black people are just genetically inclined toward being
dishonest and dangerous, then.  If you are not willing to admit that
there is even the slightest hint of a societal problem here, that is the
ONLY explanation remaining for why there are so many more black crooks
than doctors.  `S probably the gene that gives them such good rhythm.  

>	The best mankind can do is identify these individuals when 
>possible and keep them seperated from us normal people, whom they will
>always prey on when given the opportunity.

You are making a serious mistake in separating criminals from so-called
normal people (yourself, of course, included in the latter group, as
usual).  WE are the "normal" people; we are also the crooks.  YOU have
made the grievous and all too common mistake of misinterpreting everyone
who says that there is a societal part in people becoming criminals as
some sort of softheaded crybaby who spends their time playing with
lovebeads and reading sensitive poetry.  I am probably far more cynical
than you, or else your response would shock me far more than it does.

You're then saying that people who are crooks are that way for NO REASON
OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT THEY WANT TO BE.  Must be genetic, then.  I'd
like to see you defend this point of view.  

Your Us vs. Them mentality is a crock of shit. 

>I know you disagree, and that's fine.

I know you misunderstand totally and are probably not willing to admit
it even at gunpoint, having dealt with people who say stuff like this
before, and that's not surprising.

Janis C.

P.S.: If my attitude is pissy, it's not surprising.  You are probably a
perfectly nice person who would rake your leaves before they blew into
my yard and pay up at poker, but I really dislike this "They're just
that way because they are bad people" attitude.  Sure, there are people
who are just assholes in this world; I've confronted more than enough of
them to recognize this.  But totally turning aside ANY societal
pressure, especially when our one country is so afflicted with this crap
is sloppy thinking.  If it were wholly genetic and human, then black
people would be crooks everywhere, and our own high murder rate would be
echoed in every country around the globe, which it isn't.  Thinking
otherwise is bad science and inconsistent logic.  I'm not trying to
*B*L*A*M*E* you for the ills of society, I'm just saying that there is
more at work here than you are prepared or willing to admit.