HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 71043.2756@compuserve.COM (Tom & Susan Earley)
Subject: 1993 Heraldic Symposium Proceedings
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 04:24:40 GMT

1993 Heraldic Symposium Proceedings

Please submit documents to Lady Margherita Alessia, called Ghita.
Submission deadline is May 1, 1993 to enable sale AT the symposium.
Documents are preferred in electronic format, but hard copy is fine.
Preferred electronic formats are:  WordPerfect or plain ASCII text.

Compuserve address:   71043,2756
Internet address:     71043.2756@compuserve.com
US Mail (3.5 or 5.25 DOS disks):  Susan Earley
        (High or Low density)     4443 DuBois Blvd.
                                  Brookfield, IL  60513-2223

Please send pictures & drawings via US mail.  I have LIMITED access to a  
color copier so if color makes a difference, I may be able to accomodate.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Re: Welsh name question
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:18:43 GMT

Eric_Smith@kssib.ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith) writes:

>In article <1992Nov5.221906.14383@news.cs.brandeis.edu>,
>st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu) wrote:
>> "uerch", "verch" and "ferch". I don't know which is correct, but I do know
>As has been stated in other notes (not quoted here) all are correct in
>there own way.

Anyone know when the changeover to "f" happened?  Looking through Llyfr Gwyn
Rhydderch (from the late 13th century) I didn't see many instances of "f"
used as it would be in modern Welsh.  In most cases, "u" is used, with a few
instances of "v" (always in "vy", modern "fy", english "my").  I didn't go
though the entire mss. with a fine tooth comb, but a rough survey sure doens't
turn up any "f == v" useages other than at the ends of words.
"f" is used frequently to indicate "s" though.

As a quick example, here's the first line from Pwyll from the original mss.
(or at least from the Evans/Jones facsimile edition; the University of Wales
wouldn't let me have the original :-]):

Pwyll pendeuic dyuet aoed yn arglByd ar feith cantref dyuet. athreigylgweith
ydoed yn arberth prif lys idaB adyuot yny uryt ac yny uedBl uynet y hela.

(the B looks something like a cursive lower case modern "b")

And here's how  R. L. Thompson's edition normalises the spelling:

Pwyll Pendeuic Dyuet a oed yn arglwyd ar seith cantref Dyuet.  A threigylgweith
yd oed yn Arberth, prif lys idaw, a dyuot yn y uryt ac yn y uedwl uynet y hela.


-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: educational value of the SCA
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:28:13 GMT
Organization: The Internet


Bertram contends that the SCA is not educational.  I would disagree
with that, to some extent: let us say that the SCA is as educational
as any school.  You have the opportunity to learn.  Some people will
do so, others will not.  Some of the teachers are good, some are bad,
and some are indifferent.  

The difference, I suppose, is that in school you can avoid being
exposed to knowledge; in the SCA this is a great deal more difficult,
as there are innumerable people who will gladly expound on their
latest research at the drop of a hat ("Oh, no, here comes Tio ---
whatever you do, DON'T mention Cardano --- !").  It's almost
unavoidable, since there are so many enthusiasts in the Society.

Tio d'Abaco
From: Joy.Hanson@fbbs.omahug.org (Joy Hanson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Calontir Crown
Date: 08 Nov 92 09:28:38 CST
Reply-To: joy.hanson@fbbs.omahug.org
Organization: Friend's BBS, Omaha
Followup-To: rec.org.sca

Greetings unto the members of the Rialto from Lady Juelda of Salisbury.
.
Please join with me as Calontir celebrates our new Prince and Princess. 
Crown Tourney was fought yesterday in the Shire of Axed Root and was won
by Syr Chrystofer Kensor, who fought for Countess Brayden Avenel Durant. 
VIVAT!  

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: ERROR: definition of a peer
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:22:08 GMT

I had written that the receipt of a Patent is what makes one
a peer.  Arval suggested I check my facts, as he believed I
was incorrect.

I was incorrect.  Corpora specifies those orders and awards that make
on Peer, and specifically allows each kingdom to not assign a Patent
for those Awards or Orders.  So, I was wrong.  Sorry.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael)
Subject: Re: "period" wristwatches
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:28:09 GMT

I've found that it's much easier to hide a watch than to make it look period.
Go to your nearest discount store - buy a $2.00 watch (plastic or metal), rip
the band off, and hang it from a ribbon around your neck.  You can keep it 
tucked in your shirt unless you need to see it.  This is also nice since it's
a minimal investment of time and money, so if your watch accidentally gets
crushed at Pennsic you really dont' care.

-- 
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Jael                    |   "One dream, one soul, one prize, one goal,     |
| jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu | One golden glance of what should be." -R. Taylor |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca (Paul Lalonde)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Visible inauthenticity of archary
Date: 6 Nov 1992 10:59:43 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: harpo.cs.ubc.ca

powels@rpi.EDU writes:

>> From: "T. Archer" <ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu>

>> Naaahhhh....
>>
>>Historical accuracy is FAR more important than either safety, affordability,
>>or, God forbid, personal convenience.

>	If you want to shoot authentic bows, go right ahead, but stop
>wimpering that some novice with a high tech bow bested your score. You're

We are not.  We are trying to see if it is possible to set up a system
that does not make using period equipment a disadvantage.  Your analogy
to heavy fighting (I'm also a heavy) falls apart somewhat in that much
period armour is safer than some of the lumbering piles of plastic
I've seen, and a well fitted suit works better.  Closer to the mark may
be an analogy on shields.  I've started seeing people using very light
shields made of pickle bucket.  This to me smarts of cheating.  This
must have been a problem and was partially corrected by placing weight
limits on sheilds in many crown lists.  I'm not advocating banning
non-period archery equipment (I'm not an advocate of banning pickle
bucket shields), I'd just rather see a system where period equipment
is not discouraged.

>the only person who knows or realy cares what your score is. Start striving
>for PERSONAL best scores or playfully compete with your friends who have

We already to this.

>similar weapons. I saw a 10 year old girl (aprox.) competing in the archary
>events at pensic. I'd realy hat to see what would happen to her face if a 
>truely authentic bowstring snaped while drawn.

I've had more dacron strings break on me than linen.  Graydon: break
a linen string yet?  Was it any worse than breaking dacron?  I didn't
think so.  Bowstrings break.  Experimental results are currently showing
that linen strings do break with any greater frequency than dacron.  And
they are probably hurt less as the diameter is larger.  

>	Please take your authentic, unsafe, unaffordable and inconvenient
>hobbies elsewhere.

This is quite objectionable.  Most of what this thread has been saying
is that authentic archery is NO MORE UNSAFE unsafe, unaffordable or 
inconvenient than the modern archery people are doing.  If you wish
to make such a statement please back it up with some facts.

	Paul Lalonde

 Paul A. Lalonde	 	Internet: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca

"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible aux yeux"
				- Antoine de St.-Exeupery
From: del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: out-of-period dancing) 
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 13:00:27 GMT
Organization: 


In article <2AF4C370.4228@telly.on.ca> doug@telly.on.ca writes:

  > I was at an event last night where we danced at least 10 dances, 
  > Two way out of period, 4 from Playford, Hole in the Wall, Trenchmore,
  > A Pavane and an Alemond. (Excuse Spelling)  People had fun!!
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, of course, you should have spelt it "Allemande", "Alemande", "Alman",
"Almayne", or "Allemayne", or any of the other coupla-dozen spellings
that were around either in period (when most people couldn't spell anyway)
or more recently!  :)  :)  :)  :)

(Your spelling is excused, BTW).

Del
--
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D Elson                            |  del@DIALix.oz.au del@adied.oz.au
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Strip the Willow 
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:20:10 GMT

Del writes:

  Um, excuse me, but when did the Renaissance start and the Middle Ages finish?
  One of my books says 1485, and La Spagna can be traced to 1450 ... splitting
  hairs, I know, but I am sure that we have others from Domenico that can
  be called "medieval" rather than "renaissance".

Well, there certainly isn't a hard and fast date, and perhaps I went a
little overboard.  On the other hand, it's generally agreed that
"Renaissance"-type things started earlier in Italy than elsewhere, and the
start date ranges back to Dante at the extreme outside.  More to the point,
if we have a dance that we have documented from what I assume is a clearly
Renaissance source, it's a good bet that nothing like it was being danced
in 1200.

I don't really know enough about dance, but in the field of music pretty
much anything between Gregorian chant and Baroque is considered Renaissance
--- the application and development of a notation for secular music is
considered a priori part of the Renaissance.

I think you would find that all the dances from Domenico (which I admit I
have not looked at myself) share enough stylistic elements that calling
some "medieval" and some "renaissance" purely on the basis of a dividing
date somewhere in the fifteenth century is highly arbitrary at best.

			---Simon

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: idiots with guns
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:42:21 GMT

In article <92Nov09.205002.31274@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
[I had posted G&PD 11 from the _Organizational Handbook_.]

>It is my understanding, and this is not as solidly based as I
>would like it to be, that the laws which are the background cause
>to this ruling are not a factor here in Canada.

That may be the case--but events in Canada could still bet the SCA
sued in the US (I think--I are not a legal shark...).

>If I knew *for a fact* that there was no person qualified to
>administer first aid at a tourney, I would want to see that
>event cancelled.

I understand why you'd might feel that way.  I certainly appreciate
having the chirugeonate around, but they are a relatively recent SCA
activity.  We had many years of SCA activity before one even knew if
there was anyone in the vicinity with First Aid training.  While some
of our survival through tose times may simply be blind luck, even know
I think most events could proceed normally even if there was no one on
site with specific training.

>If there were no constables on duty at the gate of any
>camping event, I would not attend it.

What fraction of the time?

I can also point to events near me where there is a campground
propiretor or agent near (though not at) the gate even when we're not
'runnung gate'.

>Both are, in my opinionated opinion, situations in which we
>would be placing ourselves in considerable danger.

I think it varies.  It's also a good reason to have seasoned,
experienced SCA Constables and Chriurgeons calling those shots.
I've seen too many disparate conditions to be willing to make such
blanket statements about an absolute need for either an actively
manned gate or warranted Chirurgeons on duty.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: dgreen@thor (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: OOP ?
Date: 6 Nov 1992 01:27:45 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.berkeley.edu

Greetings from Bjalfi Thordharson!

For the second time in a year (and during that time, I've been
away from the Rialto for about half a year), I hear the question,

> k> What does the frequently abreviation OOP mean?
> k>  Ekkehart von Wartstein

I vote we add this to the list of FAQ's.
Anybody with me?

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: armor
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:19:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Nov11.181922.12880
Organization: The Rialto

Meister Frydherik Eysenkopf writes:
>
>.... ~60# of plate, ~72" of sword, try it. 
><...and I _don't_ have an attitude ;>

He really doesn't have an attitude; what he does have is some very
well-made & well-fitting plate armor (three guesses what he got his 
Laurel for).  Frydherik is in pretty good shape for a desk-jockey; 
my guess is that he feels the weight of his armor (except on his 
feet) about the same way a pretty-good-shape-for-a-desk-jockey 
weekend backpacker feels the weight of a 30# pack.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
alexander@pfc.mit.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Fealty to a kingdom
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:57:57 GMT

Jester asks again:
     My apologies for using so much space on the Rialto, but I have failed to
  correctly state the extent of my question.  Let me try again.  As a participant
  in the SCA, what are my obligations to a Kingdom?  

  [ I deleted the part about himself, since I can answer the question,
    regardless.  I find it illuminating, however, that he describes
    his "character".  That's not quite the way I understand the SCA
    to be, but no matter ]

Society Governing documents.
If: You are a peer, you have certain obligations to the Crown of the Kingdom
    in which you live.  Specifically "To support and uphold the Crown".
If: You are a Kingdom officer, you have certain obligations to the Crown,
    *as*defined*by*kingdom*law.

Otherwise, no, the Society makes no, legal ruling.  It is implied, but
not stated, that the Kingdom Laws which apply to you are determined by
the mailing label address on your membership, or the postal code or
other boundary where you reside.

He also asks:
      Also, how much authority do kingdoms have in establishing their own
  regulations.

Kingdom Law make not contravene the governing documents of the Society,
but may make laws in areas that they do not, or make stronger restrictions
than the Society does.

Good question follows:
                Could a kingdom, at the direction of the king, withdraw
  the fighting authorization from certain members in order to enforce the will
  of the crown?

It would depend on the laws of the kingdom.  Corpora does allow the reigning
Royalty to overrule their officers:
  Corpora VI.A.1.f.(1)
       (1) The royal authority over officers and subjects of the realm
  is limited to directives which do not contravene established rules of
  the Society, and which do not conflict with the laws of the nation or
  any of the subdivisions of the nation in which such directives would
  apply.  (See Appendix A.)  

I do not see any ruling in the governing laws of the Society that would
prevent it.  However, your Kingdom Law may prevent it.  And, I have no
doubt that such a decision could be appealed to the Board, for evaluation.
Depending on the reasoning, it would almost certainly be upheld.  Perhaps
someone who has familiarity with the Marshal's Handbook could give some
insight here.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SWORD HAND/SHIELD HAND
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:31:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Nov9.093119.20009
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering

In article <01GQVDN4G4QAAR44HC@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> PBOYNTON%SESCVA@SNYBUFVA.BITNET (ROWENA NI DHONNCHAIDH) writes:
>
>Has anyone noticed the stong influx of new fighters who are lefties
>lately. I heard rumor that 3 out of the 4 semi-finalists for Cynagua
>Coronet were lefties?
>
	Aye, ther was talk at last week's fighting practice.  There seems to be
a rather surprising ratio of lefties to righties out on the field lately.
P'raps more lefties are joining the SCA, 'cause lefties are in their right
minds (don't look at me -- I'm ambidexterous, which means I'm in neither mind!).

-> Shandler

SCA: Shandler Greyfeathre
MKA: Aaron Pavao
NET: pavao@cae.wisc.edu
"...or out of my mind..."

ps	Hey, Jararvellir (mundane Madison) is having the Feast (well... Potluck)
of St. Bunstables on 21 Nov.  Y'all come (Email me for details).
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kathy@xn.ll.mit.edu
Subject: Re: authenticity
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 01:41:48 GMT

In article <9210301603.AA14476@orsino> sharons@juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill) writes:
 >
 >
 >William de Corbie writes about drinking Coke, and 
 >Tio Alessandro Giordano d'Abaco replies:
 >
 >I think this fails the test of "imperceptible to anyone but an
 >expert", especially when there are period alternatives (juices,
 >perhaps?) to water.  You would be hard put even to justify carbonated
 >drinks (despite the claims of, say, Perrier).  
 >
 >------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >Comment - I'll agree that this fails the "imperceptible test",
 >however, assuming the Coke is in non-clear container, it
 >certainly should not offend others.

I would argue that it might in fact pass the "imperceptible test".
Other than either tasting it, or failing to smell alcohol, how would
you differentiate between Coke and a dark beer?  I submit that neither
taste nor smell are useful in detecting the difference unless you are
too close for polite public behavior.

					A'isha

A'isha bint Jamil, of the Barony of Stonemarche, in the Kingdom of the East
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathryn L. Smith	    System Administrator 		[The text above is
MIT Lincoln Laboratories    					my personal opinion,
Lexington, MA		    ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU        not MIT/LL policy]
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathryn L. Smith	    System Administrator 		[The text above is
MIT Lincoln Laboratories    					my personal opinion,
Lexington, MA		    ARPANET: kathy@XN.LL.MIT.EDU        not MIT/LL policy]
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Does the SCA need to be 'educational'?
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:05:52 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto all who read these words, greetings
from Yaakov

Arval writes, on the matter of the SCA's purpose
and the need for us to be an educational group:
"I have heard this statement many times; I believe
it to be false.  I do not believe that our allegeded
educational purpose has any real bearing on our
tax status.  Surely there are tax-exempt not-
for-profit groups devoted to science fiction
and fantasy fandom, not to mention purely social
organizations like bowling leagues."

Much as I hate to disagree with one so learned
as Master Arval, I fear I must in this case.
Sec. 501(c)(3) of the U.S. tax code states:
"corporations...organized and operated exclusively
for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for
public safety, literary, or educational purposes,
or to foster national or international amatuer sports..."

The IRS quite jelously guards these categories.
If you do not fit one of these pigeon holes,
you are not a 501(c)(3). Finito. End of discussion.
I have heard that part of the problem at the beginning
was convincing the Service that we really *did*
do educational things.
SF& Fantasy groups fit promotion of literature.
Not to mention that they are educational.
They teach about Science Fiction and Fantasy.
(Ever been to an SF Con.  Lots of panels by
professionals in the field speaking on the subject.)

Do organizations such as NERO have tax-exempt status?
If so, how?

I do not understand why we do not incorporate
under 501(c)(7):"clubs organized for pleasure,
recreation, and other nonprofitable purposes,
substantially all of the activites of which are for
such purposes and no part of the net earnings of
which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder."

I suspect the reason we didn't was 1) While all
states have an analogous category to 501(c)(3), they
do not have anything analogous to 501(c)(7); 2) I
do not know if 501(c)(7) existed when the SCA formed.

In Service,
Yaakov HaMizrachi
Law student at large, not a lawyer!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Group activity, 1650, Tangent, etc.
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:56:17 GMT

Bertram wrote:
 Tibor asks why the 'requirement' that groups host an event to demonstrate
 they're active exists.  The answer, I believe, lies in a simple fact of
 history.

Which begs the question, "Why did Sedalia recently introduce the concept
into kingdom law?"

Bertram also asked:
  How do we mentally organize SCA generations?

Everyone who was a an accepted member when I joined, was old guard.
Everyone who joined when I did was new.  After a while, I was middle
guard, and everyone who joined after me was new.  After a few rounds
of that, people told me I was old.  As soon as I lose more hair, I'll
and the rest turns grey, I'll be old enough to have founded the
Society...  Even though I joined some time around AS XVI.

My daffynition of age in the Society seems more social and locally
bound.  I was an accepted member of the SCA when I began to be
invited to private parties of fellow members.  I became a middle
generation member when I recognized friends at parties that no
longer come to SCA events.  I'll be old guard when I stop going to
events, and just go to the parties.  And, I'll just be old when
people stop inviting me.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]