HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed Weapons Permit ( again.... )
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:14 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <199209290353.AA21249@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
##From my understand, it is impossible for a normal person like me to
#obtain a CWP here in Boulder, Colorado. However, do I really want to
#have a CWP? It seems to be very safe around here...

Especially after California...

#As a side question, if I do put my loaded pistol ( Beretta -- Hey! Defend your
#life with style!! :) in my car and get stopped by a cop for traffic violations,
#what are the good excuses to tell him/her about why do I have a loaded 
#shinning beautiful pistol in my car? Thanks again.

You might want to be carefull about that: I asked at a local gun
store right after I moved here, and Boulder apparently has a city law
against carrying a loaded gun in a car (unloaded is fine...)

                                                 Frank Crary
                                                 CU Boulder
From: nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun Ammunition Debate
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:29 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara

In article <1992Sep27.162324.18931@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#In article <1992Sep26.194530.10787@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
##nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:
##
###*in those cases where there's only one torso hit*, what percentage
###of them are stoppers?  In other words, if there's only one torso hit,
##
##No, what Marshall's stats measure can more accurately be summarized
##as: 
##
##*In those cases where only one torso hit is required*, how does everthing
##turn out?
## ...
#
#  Jim makes an extremely good point which is worth considering further,
#and in more generality.  In statistics when one is doing statistical
#inference or test of hypotheses from data, it is very important to know
#the characteristics of the data.  I'll ignore the times when one can
#use all of the data and only discuss the relevant situation in which a
#sample is used.
#
...
#
#  Let me give an example which popped into my mind when reading Jim's
#comments.  Imagine a low-power round which can stop with one shot only
#if it inflicts a CNS (central nervous system) injury and can't
#otherwise.  Further imagine that it is often or mostly used by shooting
#once, seeing if it stops, and then shooting further times if it hasn't
#stopped.  Let us specify the percentage of times this first shot leads
#to a stop (by CNS injury) as L%.  Note that this L% is the figure of
#interest to us - it is the true one-shot stop % for this low-power
#round.

But this isn't what Marshall is doing.  Your example presumes a round
that can *only stop* with one shot if it hits the central nervous system.
Marshall is saying, of all the rounds out there, when the shooter does
his job (puts the round in center torso), which one does the best job?
Once it is placed in the proper spot?  He's not saying shoot-shoot-shoot
and see what happens.  He's saying, shoot once in the center torso and
the guy either stops or not, and in the case of the .357 125-gr HP,
97% of the time the answer is yes, the guy stops hostilities.

If you presume a case where *no* round could stop with one shot unless
it hit the central nervous system, then that's a fair comparison.  But
that's not the case, clearly.  Marshall applies the same criteria to
every round he studies, and the one round that keeps coming up on top
is the .357 125-gr JHP.


Jerry Roe
jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr
From: chuckr@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com (Charles V. Rossi)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR15 accuracy
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:59:01 GMT

towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith) writes:

#In article <HOLLEN.92Sep23134824@peg.megatek.UUCP>, megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET
 (Dion Hollenbeck) writes...
##
##Do those if you with experience of AR15 type rifles in .223 feel that
##a 16" heavy barrel 1 in 9 twist and a scope will enable it to achieve
##1" groups at 100 yards from a rest?  It is assumed that the ammunition
##will be carefully crafted to be optimum for that particular chamber.
##If not, would a longer barrel reach the goal, and how long should it
##be?
#
# It depends strictly on who made the barrel. Stay away from the chrome lined
#bores as their accuracy potential, to put it bluntly, is lousy...

This is a new one......so what's the inside story on chrome lined
bores?  Seems to me they would be a better choice since they would last
longer and resist corrosion better.

I have a Quality Parts 24" 1 in 9" chrome lined barrel that will hold
under 1" groups at 100 yards.  I've always felt I could squeze even
tighter groups if I could work up a bullet/powder combination that it
really liked.

-- 
Chuck Rossi  (408)927-2880 
IBM Almaden Research Center         IBM VNET: CROSSI at ALMADEN
                                    /*  My opinions and not  */
chuckr@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com          /*  those of my employer */
From: maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: EPC sight advice needed
Date: 27 Sep 92 21:07:34 GMT
Organization: Sweet Oblivion

I recently purchased the EPC electronic dot sight with adjustable base
for my trusty Glock 17.

The sight is very small, only about 1.5" long, 1" wide and 0.5" high and
weighs next to nothing. It was comparably priced to other electronic dot
sights, which are much larger and not suitable for pistols, IMHO (I do
have a Tasco Propoint on my AR15).

However, I still haven't mounted the sight because I can't decide
whether to use the adujstable base or not.

Normally, the sight is mounted with 2-component epoxy glue (!), which
can be done without tools but you only have about 2 minutes to put it
right before the glue hardens. I cannot do this at the range, as the
instructions suggest, but would have to mount the sight at home, go to
range to check it out and then remove the thing and try again, if it
wasn't good and proper...

The adjustable base would require some machining and propably the
services of a gunsmith, which might end up costing nearly as much as the
sight itself. The base makes the sight somewhat higher and would require
milling the slide to make it "fit" better. 

One more point to consider: The glue mount can be removed with no traces
left on the gun, in case I want to sell the piece or mount the sight on
another one of my guns. The adjustable ofcourse _can_ be removed, but
will propably leave an ugly mark on ths slide.

Any suggestions? Should I dish out some extra cash (which I'm rather
short of right now) and have a gunsmith do it properly in the first
place. Or should I just stick the thing on and hope things turn out
well?

I'll post a better review of the thing once I get it properly mounted...


--------
maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio)
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) Official SRP Headquarters
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silencer questions
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:14:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Sep30.220955.2543
Organization: Western Washington University

mjalava@lk-hp-21.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:

#It heavily depends on the silencer, the gun and the cartridge used. I
#have a silencer for my Unique DES 69 .22 lr pistol (so that it doesn't
#disturb the neighbors at our summer place). The thing is 30 mm thick,
#about 18 cm long and weighs something like 130 g.

#If I shoot low velocity cartridges, the sound is like slamming a
#rolled newspaper against a table. Not too loud, you could well shoot
#indoors.

Low vel, like standard vel .22 LR?
How loud is it with various higher velocity .22 LRs?

It sounds like a very good design, that it is simple to clean 
and doesn't wear out.  Is there a brand name or something?

JD
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gunning down children (was Children and toy guns...)
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <sbapt1p@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
#davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler) writes:
#
##My wife is a 2nd grade teacher at a rural school. Apparently, last weekend
##some kids (aged 5, 7, and 8) "accidently" broke one of the school's windows
#.
##year old) was brandishing a toy cap gun. According to the cop, he came within
##1/4 second of shooting when the boy turned and (unknowingly) pointed the gun
##at the cop. Self-restraint on the officer's part, however, saved the boy's
##life.
#
#Self-restraint?  The cop puts himself in a situation where he has to make
#a split-second decision regarding whether a child is going to shoot 
#him with a toy gun and it is called "restraint?"  I call it a 
#combination of recklessly triggerhappy and luck.  There is something
#tragically wrong with the way we're allowing cops to operate when
#they are trained to react like this.  There was once a time where cops
#were expected to put their lives on the line to protect those of 
#civilians instead of coming within 250 milliseconds of gunning down
#a child.
#

Considering how many cops are gunned down by "children" each year, I don't
see your argument as correct. Cops put their lives on the line each day
with "kids" pointing _real_ guns at them. The cop who responded to the alarm
at my wife's school _did_ put his life on the line by _not_ shooting the
kid who pointed a gun at him.

Maybe in some distant, golden past, when 9-year olds weren't running drug 
deal interference, when there weren't drug-related drive by shootings at the
suburban mall where I get my hair cut, maybe back then cops could assume
that an armed child was actually carrying a toy, chuckle and show the kid
the bullets on his belt. Nowdays, the officer is just as likely to see the
kid's bullets, up close and personal.


	...Dave
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger .41 Mag Blackhawk
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:45:42 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <3684@master.CNA.TEK.COM> richa@aspen.cna.tek.com (Rich Amber) writes:

 >There is some rumor that Ruger is not filling any orders for
 >.41 Mag single-action revolvers. I ordered one a month ago.
 >The distributor says he hasn't been able to get one since June.
 >And he says Ruger is not accepting back orders on 41s. So,
 >I tried another distributor - same story.

 >Ruger, are you out there? What the heck is this BS?
 >What's the deal  with .41 Mags and why aren't you doing
 >something about it? I would really like to have the best
 >(yes, I  believe Ruger makes the best .41 SA), but if
 >this is Ruger's idea of customer service, then all
 >my future business (for ALL guns) is going elsewhere.


Gun manufacturers make product in batches.  Something as low demand as
41 magnum might be made only every other year.  Timing is everything.

Alan K Biocca
From: smpod@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Breaking in a new barrel, procedure?
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:16 GMT
Organization: who knows

bww@hpqtdlm.sqf.hp.com (Brian Woodroffe) writes...

#as US teams can do well at Bisley (UK) 

I did not know that the US sent teams to Bisley!  I've only heard about the
US teams at the UIT, Olympic and Palma matches.  I thought that the Bisley 
matches were only open to Commonwealth countries.


#What is the procedure to break in a new barrel?

Here a method recommended to me by Ed Harris:

"Need the following items:
cleaning rod guide
spear jag
brush adaptors
Brobst JB paste
patches
GI bore cleaner (or Ed's Red)

Clean the bore before you start, using the following method:
1.  wet patch straight through and let fall off jag
2.  change to bore brush, apply bore cleaner from squeeze bottle, then give
    it six passes up and back through the bore
3.  change back to jag and push a wet patch trough to remove any loosened
    residue
4.  wet another patch, rub with JB paste and impale patch on jag, give throat
    area six strokes, then work up bore about 2" deeper with each pass until 
    patch comes out muzzle
5.  flush out residue with two wet patches.  If second patch appears clean,
    dry with three patches and you are ready to shoot, otherwise repeat 2 and 3
    above and dry again.

Fire 1 shot
Clean again as above.  Repeat 5 times.

Fire a 5-shot group
Clean again as above.  Repeat 5 times.

Fire a 10-shot group
Clean again as above. Repeat 10 times.

Barrel should foul less after this cleaning ritual and should maintain a
uniform condition for National Match Course or silhouette shooting."
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AMT Automag II
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:57:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge or experience with this particular
gun?  I've been looking for one for a while, and just ran across one locally.
Amazingly enough, the store only wants $269 for it, less than a Ruger Mk. II!
Any opinions/warnings/encouragement would be appreciated...


-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Holsters
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:45:57 GMT
Organization: Princeton University

In article <9210021521.AA06510@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch
(kunz peter) writes:
#In article <9209210704.AA17092@hpfcso.HP.COM> post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post) writes:
##Why is it that anyone would make a holster with a cut-out around the trigger
##guard, exposing the trigger?  Many holsters don't just have a cutout, they
##are fully relieved.  This is done on purpose.
#speed and a better grip on the gun, i'd say...

Sillyness mode on:

1. Carrying a revolver
2. Thumbstrap is stuck closed (frozen shut, perhaps)
3. Holster attachment to your Sam Browne belt breaks on the draw
4. Fire the gun while still in the holster

Sillyness mode off:

Other than the fact that someone else could discharge your holstered
weapon (say, to shoot your foot so he can take your weapon), the cutout
shouldn't effect the wearer since he should be trained not to put his
finger on the trigger until immediately ready to fire, right?
 
- Ryan                               rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
===================================================================
"We, too, born to freedom, and believing in freedom, are willing to 
fight to maintain freedom. We, and all others who believe as deeply
as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees."-FDR
===================================================================
From: wa4mei!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: steel shot, ballistic penetrators?
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:20:54 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep25.155025.21367@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#
#00 steel buckshot, if there is such a thing, would have a muzzle energy
#of about 300 ft-lb, less than a .38 SPL, so it wouldn't have the energy
          ^^^^^^^^^

Dumb calculation error. This should read ...about 150 ft-lb...

Gary
From: langston@convex.COM (Kevin Langston)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Which 9mm to buy
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:17:00 GMT
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#padeniso@eos.ncsu.edu (PAUL ANDREW DENISOWSKI) writes:
#
#}	Funny how no one here has really mentioned anything by Sig Sauer.
#
#One of the original constraints was "cost less than $400."  That pretty
#much rules out any of the SIGs.

    Well, there's always the P-220 in 9mm. Dealers are buying them for
    about $350-375. This is a superb gun, the only perceived shortcoming
    being a smallish magazine holding 9 rounds. It also has a European
    style magazine release on the bottom of the well. Perfectly natural 
    once you do it a couple of times. It's somewhat less than optimal 
    for combat or competition. The magazines are the same as those for
    the Browning BDA and tend to be slightly pricey.

    It's a fine gun, shoots like any other in the family, but the mag
    release and capacity keep the price low. I consider it a bargain.

    Kevin

    BTW, if anybody has magazines for it, I have a buyer.
-- 
--  Kevin Langston           Convex Computer Corporation, Technical Operations
--  langston@convex.com  --  langston@frontier.lonestar.org
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state,
 the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." JNS
From: mzal@cbnewsj.att.com (Michael Zaleski)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: BTI Gun Safe/Gun Safes in General
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:39:26 GMT
Organization: Personal Opinions Only.

Does anyone have any experience with or had occasion to see
the BTI biometric gun safe in operation?  (See page 84 of
9/92 American Rifleman.)  It appears that this safe unlocks
when it matches your fingerprint.  I am interested if anyone
has actually seen one or used one and how well it works,
quality of construction, etc.

In addition, I would welcome any mail/comments people might
have on gun safes in general with respect to such issues as
quality of construction, price, etc.

Responses by email would be preferred, since I rarely have
time for enews.  I will, however, summarize any responses I
get.  In looking quickly through the current Subject: lines,
I found no references to this subject.

Thanks,   Michael Zaleski      att!pegasus!mzal    attmail!mzaleski
-- 
-- "The Model Citizen" Mike^Z  [ allegra, att ] pegasus!mzal  (908)-576-3189
"... well he looked me in the eye as he was writing me up,
 he said, "driver you been flyin'.
 That 95 was the route you were on, it was not the speed limit sign.""
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need advice on semi-auto rifles
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:39:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: magnus.1992Oct6.124651.28738
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <199210050257.AA14094@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#In article <9210021745.AA00228@spsgate.sps.mot.com> wloka@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Markus G. Wloka) writes:
##() Budget ~$1200, for new or almost new rifle.
#
#Whatever you buy, you might want to do it soon: Prices will probably
#rise as the presidential election approaches....
#

My belief also. I went to the last (September 26-27) OGCA show & there
seemed to be a real shortage of SARs (the only one I saw was a
factory cut-away SAR-48) and FNCs (saw *one* all day). Plenty of Belgian
FALs for >$1600. Also, plenty of AKs with original stocks/pistol grip or 
folding stocks for ~$500. Also, lots of AR15 clones from "PWA". Never
heard of these before, but the price was right ($419 for a new heavy
barrel with Weaver scope mount on top the carrying handle). Anyone
know anything about these?

##HK-91 308:  Roller system.  I have some concern on the HK's ability to feed
##when slightly dirty.  Is that concern unfounded?  
#
#I think so: A friend owns one, and he isn't too meticulous about cleaning.
#He's never had any problems.
#

Ditto. I used to own one and don't remember and problems with this.
Keep in mind that the chamber is fluted as part of the design & this also allows
a tolerance for grunge as I understand it. The HK-91 does have dirty action
(witness the powder residue on the cases after firing).

-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Are there restrictions on carry in public places
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:47:15 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker) writes:

# Florida, a fairly liberal state gun-law-wise, does issue CCW permits to 
# anyone without a record who takes the appropriate CCW course.
# 
# State code allows carrying with a permit except in bars (any 
# establishment that serves alcohol) and in public buildings.  The code 
# lists several buildings, such as courthouses, university buildings, 
# banks, state office buildings, municipal buildings, etc.


Actually I don't think you have it quite right. It is illegal to carry
in a bar, but you can carry in a restaurant that serves alcoholic
beverages. The wording from FL statute 790.06(12) is:

   any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic
   beverages for consumpation on the premises, which portion of
   the establishment is primarily devoted to such purposes

I'll admit that this is about as clear as most legalese, but I called
and asked for clarification from the bureau that handles CCW permits and
they said that it means real bars and not restaurants that serve
alcoholic beverages. They said that it was even legal if the restaurant
had a bar area.

I don't drink when I carry, but it's hard to find many restaurants above
the fast food level for dinner that don't serve alcohol. Shucks, even
the local Dennys has started serving beer and wine.

I also don't see anything about state and municipal buildings or banks.
They do list courthouses, police stations, jails, government meetings,
schools and polling places.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: andy@sail.stanford.edu (Andy Freeman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 Pistol
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:30:36 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.

#What if one buys a new action, such as the Mini Mark X action, which
#was never barrelled?  Can one make a pistol out of it?

Not legally.

A receiver is defined legally as a rifle when the serial number is
stamped on it.  The manufacturer could have defined it as a handgun
before that action, but didn't, and that decision is binding.

-andy
-- 
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu