HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Extended BASIC
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:41:20 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (TMOTA) writes:

>torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen) writes:

>>BTW, you already have pointers in BASIC V. In fact you have had them
>>since the BASIC interpreter on the Atom. Do the operator names ? and !
>>ring a bell? There is also an operator to access floating point
>>numbers through memory addresses. And as for alloc(), DIM does that.

>Well... not quite... in C you can do:

>  base->block.item->thingy.link->item

>while to achieve the same thing in BASIC I think you need to reverse
>everything, so you need something like:

>  item!(thingy+link)!(block+item)!base

How about

   base!(block+item)!(thingy+link)!item

I'm not sure about the precedence rules for !, so it might have to be
bracketed like

   ((base!(block+item))!(thingy+link))!item

>...and you will also notice the immediate problem, in that "item" is used
>twice in the chain, so would either have to coincide with the same offset
>in both cases, or BASIC would require that *every* field name in *every*
>structure be unique...

Note that my original comment just said that POINTERS already existed
in BASIC. Now you're talking records. As I said, I think adding these
would be a nice thing. Other people have pointed out that it can be
simulated by offsets (like you did above), but I consider that
errorprone for several reasons: one is the fact that field names must
be globally unique (as you pointed out) and the other is that changing
the size of a field or adding one will require all later offsets to be
recomputed.

>C's syntax is logical, BASIC's is a hack
>to make a system do something for which it was not designed.

I don't consider C's syntax to be logical. Not that I think BASIC's is
any better.

	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)
From: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Admin: Review of c.s.a.a's usefulness to date
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:13:07 GMT

In <6630@falcon.ukc.ac.uk> jtn@ukc.ac.uk (J.T.Noble) writes:

>gpvos@cs.vu.nl (Gerben 'P' Vos) writes in article <Bz3prr.7xK@cs.vu.nl>
>>I'm generally content with the way c.s.a.ann works at the moment, but i have
>>one minor peeve: some of the Acorn news releases seem a bit too commercial
>>to me. I think c.s.a.ann is a place for factual information, not a place where
>>advertising should take place.

>I don't know. I like hearing what Acorn are up to. It's nice to know that these
>commercial things are going on. I wouldn't really call it advertising anyway.

I agree - to some degree at least the purpose of news is to generaly
help the users on it.  Acorn are being helpful in providing this news,
perhaps it is worded too commercialy - but lets face it they are already making
the effort to post the information which we wouldn't otherwise have got
until we get one of the magazines (which normaly make a complete hash
of news ).

Groups like this cant be completely non-commercial - after all they
are dedicated to one brand of computer. 

Its got to be a balance, and I sure see the balance going heavily in
the direction of Acorn for being good enough to provide information.

Dave

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- David Alan Gilbert - gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk - G7FHJ@GB7CRG                   -
------(Programmers don't sleep - they just park their heads)-------------------
From: r_voisey@csd.uwe.ac.uk (R Voisey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: RISC OS 3 PRM's
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:33:21 GMT
Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol

In article <gilbertd.723752632@cs.man.ac.uk> gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (david gilbert S92 sbf) writes:

>But isnt the low price of the software for the Arc one of the
>things which are left going for it? (Out of a previously large list)

It depends which way you look at it..  as far as tempting software developers
into the market goes, it definately isn't a good point.

Bob
-- 
  Robert J. Voisey  :  r_voisey@csd.uwe.ac.uk
         -- Probug Software Developments --
162 Staplehill Rd, Fishponds, Bristol, Avon, England
From: dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Admin: Review of c.s.a.a's usefulness to date
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:18:29
Organization: Computing Department, Imperial College, London, UK
Distribution: world
	<1992Dec12.201532.27855@cs.nott.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: smb@cs.nott.ac.uk's message of Sat, 12 Dec 92 20:15:32

>In article <Bz3prr.7xK@cs.vu.nl> gpvos@cs.vu.nl (Gerben 'P' Vos) wrote:

>>some of the Acorn news releases seem a bit too commercial to me.

In article <1992Dec12.201532.27855@cs.nott.ac.uk> smb@cs.nott.ac.uk
(Simon Burrows) replied:

>How could this be got around?  You can't expect Acorn to write
>special versions of the news releases just for our benefit!  That
>would take up a lot of their valuable time and would no doubt need
>umpteen authorisations.

This was my first reaction too - "poor us, we need all the info we
can" get and "poor little Acorn, they need all the free advertising
they can get".  But what about all the other, even smaller, companies
on the net?  I'm sure they would like to post their adverts too.  On
the whole I think the No Advertising rule should be applied fairly to
all net users and all groups except those where it is explicitly
allowed.  It would be selfish of us to say "Acorn is a special case
for us".
--
Denis Howe <dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk>
So Biggs, you're the idiot who bought all these IBM PCs.  You're fired!
From: jtn@ukc.ac.uk (J.T.Noble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Admin: Review of c.s.a.a's usefulness to date
Date: 14 Dec 92 13:31:31 GMT
Reply-To: jtn@ukc.ac.uk (Jim Noble)
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

gpvos@cs.vu.nl (Gerben 'P' Vos) writes in article <Bz3prr.7xK@cs.vu.nl>
>I'm generally content with the way c.s.a.ann works at the moment, but i have
>one minor peeve: some of the Acorn news releases seem a bit too commercial
>to me. I think c.s.a.ann is a place for factual information, not a place where
>advertising should take place.

I don't know. I like hearing what Acorn are up to. It's nice to know that these
commercial things are going on. I wouldn't really call it advertising anyway.

I must say that I would like to see more coming from c.s.a.announce. Be nice if
Acorn could tell us what they are up to on the development side. (Where's the
VIDC20 machine then :-) (A Joke - for now ;-)

>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . G e r b e n   V o s   <><

--
ttfn,
	Jim.
From: blacka@logica.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: RO3 PRM`s and Desktop C
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:20:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.215016.1@vxdesy.desy.de>, burke@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
> I like DDT, but I wouldn't go that far; the VAX debugger is quite a bit better.
> The main things lacking in DDT are the ability to set conditional breakpoints
> (break if variable value <0 etc.), and to execute a sequence of commands when a
> breakpoint is met. I'd also like to have a command line back! Trying to do
> everything with menus drives me crazy.

I agree.  the VAX debugger is great (but I'm biased.  I'm 
penning this on an Arch connected to at least two VAXes)

Seriously, the windows approach looks good at first sight,
but it pals after repeated use.  Commands and/or keyboard
short cuts would help greatly.   The  ability to store a set
of commands in an initialization file would also  help  - on
a VAX  I frequently set up a list of interesting points to
break at in DBG$INIT. 
 
Andrew Black
From: r_voisey@csd.uwe.ac.uk (R Voisey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: RO3 PRM`s and Desktop C
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:19:43 GMT
Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol

In article <1992Dec11.232040.5@condor> blacka@logica.co.uk writes:

>I agree.  the VAX debugger is great (but I'm biased.  I'm 
>penning this on an Arch connected to at least two VAXes)

I'd be interested to know how you've connected your Arch to the VAX, and with
what success (unless it's a plain serial connection with terminal emulator,
in which case I know how to do that.)  I'm thinking of running DecWindows
on my VAX and connecting it to my Arch over ethernet (DEQNA on VAX, Atomwide
on Arch) with the hope that it will talk to Gnome's X Client.  Does anyone
know if this is possible?  If so, how would I configure DEC Windows to
recognise the Arch's server?

Any help via email please, and I'll sumarise.

Bob
-- 
  Robert J. Voisey  :  r_voisey@csd.uwe.ac.uk
         -- Probug Software Developments --
162 Staplehill Rd, Fishponds, Bristol, Avon, England
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
From: smb@cs.nott.ac.uk (Simon Burrows)
Subject: Re: Admin: Review of c.s.a.a's usefulness to date
Organization: Nottingham University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 20:15:32 GMT

In article <Bz3prr.7xK@cs.vu.nl> gpvos@cs.vu.nl (Gerben 'P' Vos) writes:

>one minor peeve: some of the Acorn news releases seem a bit too commercial
>to me. I think c.s.a.ann is a place for factual information, not a place where
>advertising should take place.

How could this be got around? You can't expect Acorn to write special versions
of the news releases just for our benefit! That would take up a lot of their
valuable time and would no doubt need umpteen authorisations.

Simon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Burrows   smb@cs.nott.ac.uk  psyhsmb@unicorn.nott.ac.uk  +44 533 712030
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: RO 3 PRM's
From: jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (TMOTA)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:07:00 GMT
 <724084970.28284@minster.york.ac.uk> <1992Dec13.024148.29332@infodev.cam.ac.uk>
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University of Auckland

idg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (I.D. Griffiths) writes:

>Speaking of which, why does Acorn's BJC800 driver produce such dire output
>from Artworks?  I've not tried it with anything else, but while it's dithering
>seemed quite reasonable over single colours, when prrinting out CC's ubiquitous
>Apple picture, it decided it was only going to use about 7 shades of green

The RISC OS 3.10 printer drivers support 3 types of dithering, "small halftone",
"large halftone" and somthing else which is a floyd-steinberg type dither.
Small halftone gives very nice fine dithers, but only provides 16 shades
between 'black' and 'white'. large halftone gives many more shades.

If you are printing in colour with small halftones, then you will get a
marked banding effect on anything except 'spot-colour'...

When printing my DTP'd documents, I usually use small halftones, as I don't
often use graduatred shades - more frequently I use screenshots (16 shades)
and drawfiles using the default 16 greyshades... However, I use large halftones
when I wish to photocopy the result (as the fine halftones are just right
to not sample properly on a photocopier and thus come out 'patchy')...

-- 
_________________  "I'd like to answer this question in two ways:
  /____ _ _/_ __       First in my normal voice, and then
 // / //_//_ /_/       in a silly, high-pitched whine." (Monty Python)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
From: goodwin@edieng.enet.dec.com (Pete Goodwin)
Subject: Re: Pascal (was Re: Extended BASIC)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 08:39:26 GMT


In article <BzBJs9.44B@brunel.ac.uk>, cs92dty@brunel.ac.uk (Danny T Yates) writes...
>Having read the 'Re: Extended BASIC' articles I am interested to know whether
>there is a decent Pascal compiler for the Arc?

There are three Pascal compilers: Acorn's original which hasn't been updated
since Arthur days and Acorn seems to have dropped.

Cambridge Pascal which hasn't changed much.

DDE Pascal which was released into the 'PD' for people with ANSI C Release 4 or
the Assembler package.

>When I say decent I don't mean anti-pascal (sorry - ANSI-Pascal!) I mean
>_really_ decent... Like Turbo Pascal 6 (or even Borland Pascal 7 with objects)
>on the PCs. The memory management on these is quite exceptional, and the
>compilation speed is breathtaking to say the least.

I don't know about the 'PD' Pascal but the other two are not wonderful.

Pete Goodwin
goodwin@edieng.enet.dec.com
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Extended BASIC
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:30:47 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

erikp@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl (Erik van de Pol) writes:

>TMOTA (jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz) wrote:

>: ...and C is (IMHO) about as easy to program as BASIC, but goes a lot faster
>: for no extra effort!

>Correction: C is _a_lot_easier_ to program than BAh!SIC. C has type checking
>and stuff, which is vital if you want to build a serious program.

For some things BASIC is easier to use:

1) String manipulation.

2) Whole array operations.

3) Run-time error trapping and error messages.

4) Evaluation of expressions constructed/read during run-time.

But I agree that type checking (and other compile-time consistency
checks) are extremely useful, especially for large systems. Another
advantage of BASIC is that it is very quick to make small "try-out"
programs: you don't have to load the compiler, you can run programs
without having to compile them and you don't have to declare
variables.

I most often use BASIC for such small programs, unless I really need
speed. And then only if I need integer performance, since BASIC is as
good as C for floating point performance (as long as C used the FPE).

	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)
From: ferdinan@oeinck.waterland.wlink.nl (Ferdinand Oeinck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pascal (was Re: Extended BASIC)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 23:03:18 CET
Organization: My own node in Groningen, NL.

goodwin@edieng.enet.dec.com (Pete Goodwin) writes:

> 
> I don't know about the 'PD' Pascal but the other two are not wonderful.

I compared the assembly-text output of the !Ball64 programs. There is one in
C (comes with desktop C) and one in pascal (comes with DDE pascal).

To my surprise the code rgenerated by both compilers is almost exactly the
same! (you have to switch off the typical pascal range and NIL pointer
checkings).

It looks like DDE pascal uses the same compiler as the DDE C, except for
the parser of course ;-).

> 
> Pete Goodwin
> goodwin@edieng.enet.dec.com

Ferdinand.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Extended BASIC
From: epoo1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (Edouard Poor)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:19:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University of Auckland

In <1g9q05INNn87@oak4.doc.ic.ac.uk> ijp@doc.ic.ac.uk (Ian Palmer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.133739.6131@odin.diku.dk> torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen) writes:
>>py92djm@cen.ex.ac.uk writes:
>>
>>What is needed to make BASIC as strong as C (or similar languages) is
>>records and unions. These can be simulated using memory operators, but
>>it is rather cumbersome and errorprone. As for naming of record
>>variables, I suggest adding dots, like "person." etc. Accessing a
>>field would be by "person.age" etc. This is similar to the naming of
>>array variables as "a()" for access to the whole and element access by
>>"a(12)".
>>

>You can easily get this, although it looses something (mainly speed
>:-) ). All you need to do is make sure all your record entry
>identifiers are unique, and substitute your '.' for a '!'.

>Thus, for example, if 'value' is set to 0, and 'next' set to 4 you can
>have a linked list :

>pointer!value = 7
>pointer!next = other_pointer

>I don't see that that is in any way more cumbersome than using a
>structure in C, or in any way more error prone - just a bit slow.
>The only problem comes with something like :

>pointer!next!next

>which might need a bit of bracketing.

No, not at all-- all you need to do is write the derefrences in _reverse_
like this:

probability!next!markov_struct += increment

and everything goes just hunky dorey...

(Which is, conincidentily, the reason I gave up BASIC for most things--
once you start to use proper structures and pointers you really notice
the lack of memory managment...)

But as far as structures and unions go you certainly can with a bit more
'initialisation' get most if not all their functionality in the existing
BASICS...

Edouard.
From: gilbertd@cs.man.ac.uk (David Alan Gilbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: RO3 PRM`s and Desktop C
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:56:27 GMT

In <724006237snx@cryton.demon.co.uk> altman@cryton.demon.co.uk (Hugo Fiennes) writes:


>Why can't acorn do an apple and release (to developers or to anyone who
>signs something saying they don't care about the bugs, but want to have
>a play with the new xxx module) development modules when they have reached
>a usable state (eg used inside acorn) but not gone through QA? eg in the
>APDA catalogue you get notes like:

<stuff deleted>

>Better to be able to play, and suggest new features, etc, than be told
>'thats it, & we can't change it now because it's been QA'ed'

Also its a great way of finding bugs - if a pre-release version was
given to lots of people, they could find bugs before it went on the
market - something akin to free beta testing.  It would cost to
distribute things like this, so why not ask people for some money,
which would be refunded when they paid for the full release
upgrade later.

Also it would meen that the PD software would be fixed to work with
new versions (and to take advantage of new versions) in advance of
a full release.

>Hugo

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                     "Did I say that? My lips didn't move..."
>Hugo Fiennes - The Serial Port                      altman@cryton.demon.co.uk
>                                                or altman@cix.compulink.co.uk
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: erikp@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl (Erik van de Pol)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Extended BASIC
Date: 17 Dec 92 10:42:35 GMT
Organization: MCGV Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Torben AEgidius Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk) wrote:
: 
: For some things BASIC is easier to use:
: 
: 1) String manipulation.
: 
: 2) Whole array operations.
: 
: 3) Run-time error trapping and error messages.
: 
: 4) Evaluation of expressions constructed/read during run-time.
: 
: Stuff deleted...
:
: I most often use BASIC for such small programs, unless I really need
: speed. And then only if I need integer performance, since BASIC is as
: good as C for floating point performance (as long as C used the FPE).
: 
: 	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)

Are you sure you ever wrote a program in C? The only argument that I agree
with is 4). Argument 1) is simply not true because C has an extensive set of 
string manipulation routines that give you the same funcxtionality that BASIC 
does. 2) is a bit true, but you easily write them yourself in about 5 minutes 
and _reuse_that code when you feel like it. 3) is a ridiculous argument.

I too use BASIC for small programs, but I find it *very* hard to write a BASIC
program that is more or less bug-free...*8-). And BASIC is horrible to read,
especially if you have a _large_ program.

Erik.

-- 
.....................................................................
>> Erik van de Pol -- (erikp@stack.urc.tue.nl) -- Phone: 01659-4625
>> Snail: Mgr Nelislaan 10 / 4741AB / Hoeven / The Netherlands
>> Send flames to your local Fire Squad; they know how to handle them.
From: wright_j@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mode usage
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:50:06 NZST
Organization: Welligton City Council, Public Access.
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

idg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (I.D. Griffiths) writes:
> Why do Acorn not really cater for people who might like to change mode once
> in a while?
> 
> I run in one of two screen modes, spending about half my time using one
> and half using the other.  Mode 31 (800*600 16 colour square pixels) and
> Mode 102 (1200 ish by 500 ish, basically rectangular pixels, same horiz
> res as mode 23, half the verticalr resolution and 16 colours.)
> 
> There is no way I could ever only use one of these modes all the time, since
> they both have different points of merit and disadvantages, which
> become relevant in different situations.  (Basically when I need high
> resolution, or a large work area respectively, but that's not the only
> issue.)

I suggest you pick up a copy of ResoIcons, from Newcastle. It is a module which
monitors mode changes and where appropriate reloads two new sprite files into
the WIMP sprite pool - the first redefining all the standard Wimp sprites and
the second containing your customised icons (eg for individual applications).

You need a little more memory than normal when using it as re-loading sprite
files into the wimp area can fragment the RMA slightly (~80k is worst I've
experienced) but it does the job well.

The latest version is 1.94, and only works on RISC OS 3.10 or later.

    Cheers, Julian
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy
Subject: Re: Extended BASIC
From: jwil1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (TMOTA)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:58:28 GMT
 <Bz1H74.7u5@cen.ex.ac.uk> <1992Dec10.133739.6131@odin.diku.dk>
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University of Auckland

torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen) writes:

>BTW, you already have pointers in BASIC V. In fact you have had them
>since the BASIC interpreter on the Atom. Do the operator names ? and !
>ring a bell? There is also an operator to access floating point
>numbers through memory addresses. And as for alloc(), DIM does that.

Well... not quite... in C you can do:

  base->block.item->thingy.link->item

while to achieve the same thing in BASIC I think you need to reverse
everything, so you need something like:

  item!(thingy+link)!(block+item)!base

...and you will also notice the immediate problem, in that "item" is used
twice in the chain, so would either have to coincide with the same offset
in both cases, or BASIC would require that *every* field name in *every*
structure be unique...

You also need brackets quite a bit to be sure you're doing the right
thing...

Proper data structures & pointers need 'local' definitions of the
field names (as offsets into structures), and also to be nice to use
should use a nice syntax. C's syntax is logical, BASIC's is a hack
to make a system do something for which it was not designed.

>What is needed to make BASIC as strong as C (or similar languages) is
>records and unions. These can be simulated using memory operators, but
>it is rather cumbersome and errorprone. As for naming of record
>variables, I suggest adding dots, like "person." etc. Accessing a
>field would be by "person.age" etc. This is similar to the naming of
>array variables as "a()" for access to the whole and element access by
>"a(12)".

Personally, to make BASIC as good as C, I think you need to compile it.
And add the missing operators ( *= /= ++ -- >>= <<= &= ^= |= etc), and support
for structures, unions, typedefs, macros, etc.

Hmmm... when it comes down to it, if you want BASIC to be as good as C, the
easiest thing to do is get a C compiler!

BASIC is already excellent for what it is designed to do. If you want more,
then I suggest you need a C compiler. BASIC is fine for small programs, but
if you need the additional support for structures, you are most likely
writing a program bigger than would be advisable in BASIC anyway...

...and C is (IMHO) about as easy to program as BASIC, but goes a lot faster
for no extra effort!
-- 
_________________  "I'd like to answer this question in two ways:
  /____ _ _/_ __       First in my normal voice, and then
 // / //_//_ /_/       in a silly, high-pitched whine." (Monty Python)