From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:27:09 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209081919.AA14811@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
 >      the idea is more that modern Rabbinic Judaism has built into
 >      itself, (all too often), an auto-rejection of Y'shua as Messiah
 RAL> I insist that you prove or retract this accusation. To do so, you
 RAL> would have to demonstrate that rejection of Jesus as a man-god
 RAL> messiah was the cause, not an effect of Judaism's principles.
     *And I insist, having proved it, -you acknowledge that it exists!*
 >     ...  One can be going along in Rabbinic Judiasm,
 >      and simply come to the conclusion that Y'shua is the Messiah,
 >      and woooosh - off you go; even though nothing else has changed
 >      at that point in ones belief system,
 RAL> A Jew who believes "Jesus was the messiah-ben-Yosef" doesn't
 RAL> really change his beliefs that much.
     *While one will on occasion hear certain Rabbinim say that Y'shua
     is perhaps the 'Messiah of the Gentiles', one WON'T hear that He
     is Messiah ben-Yosef from the Rabbinim!  Doubt it?  Go to your
     Rabbi, and tell him you think Y'shua is Mashiach ben-Yosef, and
     see what happens :-)  You see, the Orthodox view, is that Messiah
     ben-Yosef, comes and dies immediately before the appearance of
     Messiah Ben-David, during the war of Magog, at the end of the
     time of Ya'akov's trouble.  If a Jew was to acknowledge that
     Y'shua was Messiah ben-Yosef, they would already be 2/3rds in
     align with Messianic Judaism - and such an alignment is not
     tolerated in Rabbinic Judaism.  How do I know?  Because I've
     been in debate on CJ-Debate echo, (dist. by MJCN comp.net), for
     weeks about this very thing!  And while they will admit that
     there IS a Suffering-Messiah concept in Rabbanic lit., they will
     NOT in any way admit that it is, or could be, Y'shua!*
 RAL> A Jew who believes "Jesus was the messiah-ben-Dovid" is...
     *Is shunned by the Rabbinic community!*
 RAL> A Jew who believes "Jesus is God" no longer practices Judaism.
     *Needs to be defined.  Are we talking about the created being the
     totality of HaShem -(which Messianic Jews wouldn't agree with), or
     are we talking about the Ruach/Spirit of Messiah Y'shua being the
     Davar/Memra/Word of El*him; and so in accord with the concept of
     the Tri-Unity of HaShem.  Regardless, each of these "stages" that
     you brought up, would be rejected by Rabbinic Judaism.  If one
     adds: the article of the heretic in the Daily Amidah; the mock
     funerals for those who accept Y'shua as Messiah;  and the need
     to re-cant a belief in Y'shua when becomings a proseltye - and
     then couples that with the fact that a Reform Jew can also be a
     moonie or buddist - yet still make aliyah, and still be considered
     "Judaic", (if even in only tradition), by the Rabbinic community;
     then any sensitive, thinking, objective person can see that what
     I said was correct - Judaism has an anto-rejection of Y'shua built
     into it.  Face it!*
 >           No statues; no easterous/ishatar worship day; no ...
 RAL> Now, how do you differ from Evangelical Protestant Christianity?
     *Most of the things in the statement I gave ARE likewise practiced
     by Protestant Christianity.  {even some in the partial re-quote
     you gave above - easterous, winter solstice, anti-Nomian}; had
     you quoted the entire list, there would have been more.*
 RAL> Catholics to be under "Churches - Roman Catholic,"
 RAL> "Churches-Anglican" and for you to be under "Churches-Messianic."
     *Why?  "Churches" is an English translit. of a Greek term.  We are
     not Greek.  For similar, (and more), reasons, we do not go by the
     term "Christian", but either M'shacheeym-Y'hudim, or else Y'hudim-
     Natzratim.  Why? - Simple, were Jewish, not Greek!  How many
     "Churches" do you know, that use a Torah Scroll, and go to service
     on Shabbat and the High Holy Days?! To call ourselves a Shule/Edot
     /Congregation, is FAR more accurate than a "Church".*

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