HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: JESUS HAS DIED - The Hadiths - Part III
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:37:55 GMT


Part III:                    PROPHET JESUS HAS DIED:  THE HADITH
****************************************************************




The fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) is dead is  clearly  men-
tioned in the sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon
him).

These will be outlined below:

1) "If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they  would  have  had  no
choice  but  to  follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit
wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).

2)  "Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see  myself  as
only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal,
part 6, p.120).

3)  In Bukhari, it is reported that in the spiritual event  known
as  the  miraj,  the  Prophet  saw  Yahya and Jesus in the second
heaven. If Yahya is dead, then Jesus is dead, for the dead do not
keep company with the living.

4)  In Bukhari, it is recorded that after the death of  Muhammad,
some  of  the companions, among them Umar ibn al-Khattab, doubted
he was really dead. However, Abu Bakr, ascended to the pulpit  in
the  Mosque  and  recited  the Quranic verse:  Muhammad is only a
Messenger.  All Messengers before him have passed  away.   If  he
dies, or is killed, will you then turn upon your heels? (3:145).

After the short speech and recitation of this verse, the  compan-
ions  realized that indeed, the Prophet Muhammad had passed away.
NO ONE OBJECTED THAT JESUS OR ANY OTHER  PROPHET  HAD  NOT  DIED.
EVERYONE  ACCEPTED  AND  CONFIRMED THE DEATH OF ALL PREVIOUS PRO-
PHETS.  THIS WAS THE FIRST IJMA OR CONSENSUS OF THE  MUSLIM  COM-
MUNITY.

5)  The family of the Prophet Muhammad were also  agreed  on  the
death  of  Jesus.   Imam Hasan, recounting the events relating to
the death of Ali, stated, "he (Ali) died during the 27th night of
the month of Ramadan, the same night that the spirit of Jesus was
raised to heaven." (Tabaqat Ibn Sa'ad, vol III Page 26).

The words of the Prophet, his family, and his companions all  in-
dicate that Jesus passed away like all mortals.



Dr. Tahir Ijaz, M.D.


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From: hsiahaan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: RE: JESUS HAS DIED - *
Date: 10 Jan 93 23:35:50 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

It is simply unwise to put this kind of posting here. Why ?
 1. Indonesians are group of people of different religions. This makes reli-
gion a very sensitive matter. Telling others what you think a fact according
to your religion might offend and upset others.
 2. What are called 'facts' by one religion might be completely false by other
religion(s). 
 3. Basing arguments on religions are both 'in-arguable' and 'mis-leading'. 
In-arguable by the beliefers of that particular religion, and mis-leading by
beliefers of other religions. Remember, most religions give no flexibility:
just believe, or you die.
 4. This posting can lead to tensions among the readers, just as what happened
in soc.cul.asean not long ago. This tension finally became the ridiculous
name-calling, religious slurs, and other kinds of bashings.

So, please those be the postings of such kind !

HSIAHAAN

NB. Out of curiousity, is the poster an Indonesian ? Or not ?
From: purwinto@mailbox.syr.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Pesawat Bouraq jatuh di bandara Juanda Sby(tembusan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 18:34:07 -0500

keyword: Pesawat Bouraq jatuh

------- Forwarded Message

Message-Id:   <IDS%93011010370527@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1993 10:36:00 EST
Reply-To: Indonesian Development Study - Network <IDS@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
>From: EKUNCOR@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU
Subject:      Kecelakaan Pesawat Bouraq
To: Multiple recipients of list IDS <IDS@SUVM.SYR.EDU>

Rekan-rekan IDS List yang budiman.
Tadi pagi saya mendengar berita dari BBC London
yang mengabarkan bahwa pada hari sabtu sekitar
pukul 16.33 WIB (pukul 4.33 sore) telah terjadi
kecelakaan pesawat terbang di Bandara Juanda
Surabaya.  Pesawat Bouraq yang membawa 44 penumpang
mengalami kecelakaan 3 menit setelah lepas
landas dalam penerbangannya menuju kota Banjarmasin.
Korban tewas diberitakan berjumlah 15 orang.
Penyebab terjadinya kecelakaan tersebut belum diketahui
dengan pasti.
Demikian berita tanah air.
Salam kompak selalu dari Clemson.
Endo A Kuncoro


------- End of Forwarded Message
From: shadow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Paulus)
Subject: Hello..
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:08:16 GMT

Hi there!

	I am the son of Indonesian & Dutch immigrants, yet I know relatively
little of either culture. I was wondering if I may be
enlightened...particularly what the youth of Indonesia are like. I'm also
interested in what ways Indonesians have kept the culture alive in America.

Thanks for your response!

--JP--

P.S. I'd like to start with something bAsic, such as "Hello" "Goodbye", "Yes"
& "No"

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: an1600@anon.penet.fi (homeless)
Subject: Re: On Corruption and Comission (a respond to Iqbal's post)
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:46:28 GMT

Hi,
At first I wish a happy and prosperous new year 1993.

> Two vultures eat more than eight canaries, sounds logical. But if you
> think a new crown will make a good king, I'm afraid you make a faulty
> assumption.
Agree !, but I do beleive that the goverment is not God, they can still 
make some mistakes. So active feedback from the people is hardly needed.

> A country with high corruption can still have an impresive economic
> growth. The money, corrupted or not, will keep circulating. But
> government will have a lesser control on the circulation.
Correct !

>So for
> example there may be more golf fields built than railroad.
Irrelevant. The money that have been used to built golf fields is absolutely
private. It has nothing to do with the corruption.  On private
sector is everybody looking for everything which are profit-making ,
absolutely not building a railroad.

> Solution? I would say: put imense money on education.
I 'm afraid that it is still not the solution, since whom which has
the opportunity to enrich him/her-self mostly a wel educated person.
What about the justice departement, should we think that they should
have to do something to minimize corruption ?. (just a suggestion)


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Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: rahard@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo)
Subject: Re: JESUS HAS DIED - *
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:32:59 GMT



Arrgghh.....
I am not sure what the intention of the person who sent the article is.
First, I don't think he is Indonesian. Correct me if I am wrong.
Second, the posting seems to advocate Ahmadiyah. (Note that most Muslims
belive that Ahmadiyah is not Islam. [No flame please. If you have to, let's go
to soc.religion.islam or to alt.flame newsgroup]. 
I don't know how big they are in Indonesia.).

I don't think the poster read this newsgroup, so further flames in this
newsgroup are just wasting our time and energy. Further comments should be
directed to the author.
Note: There was an effort to create soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyyat (spell ?) 
but failed.

Sedikit tenggang rasalah kalau mau mengirimkan artikel. Isu-isu yang dapat
menimbulkan SARA sebaiknya dihindarkan.

salam,
Budi Rahardjo
--
Budi Rahardjo
<rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca>      <rahard@ee.umanitoba.ca> 
Electrical Engineering - University of Manitoba - Canada
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: soewito@infonode.ingr.com (Freddie Soewito)
Subject: Re: Kosakata 'imil'
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:22:37 GMT

In article <1ia4u6INNkop@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ck345@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wira Putra) writes:
>dari tulisan anda diatas, anda menulis tidak mengikuti masalah ini ...
>dan dari tulisan anda diatas itu juga, anda telah ikut serta dalam 
>`mengkarakterisasikan seseorang secara negatif' ...

Siapa yang merasa  dikarakterisasikan secara negatif?   Apakah  ada pembaca
a.c.i yang merasa tidak terpelajar dan kena dengan komentar saya itu?  Saya
hanya   memberikan contoh  apa  yang  akan  dikerjakan seseorang  yang  tak
terpelajar.  Kalau ada   yang merasa  tersinggung, yah  maafkan  saya saja.
Saya tidak tahu kalau ada yang kena dengan komentar saya.  Semoga bung Wira
tidak merasa disinggung lagi. :)

Whoever fights monster should see to it
	that in the process he does not become a monster.

Saya percaya dengan  pribahasa diatas.  Dan   bagi mereka yang  tersinggung
perasaan halusnya, semoga  ingat, bukan mereka  saja yang  manusia dan bisa
tersinggung.  Kalau anda tersinggung dengan kritik dari bung Sintong, bukan
berarti anda harus menghina, mengejek, dan menyinggung dia sedalam-dalamnya
kembali.  Kalau anda  bisa  memberi komentar mengenai  moral  bung Sintong,
lalu apa moral anda sendiri yang membalas nya dengan lebih kejam?

Tidakkah anda  merasa aneh, kalau  diskusi kata "e-mail" dijadikan langgang
ejekan dan serangan  pribadi?  Atau  itu dianggap "jamak"  bagi  kebudayaan
bangsa  kita?  Bukannya diskusi   secara   sehat,  wong ini malah  digebugi
ramai-ramai.   Katanya mau demokrasi, katanya mau  maju, ini malah diktator
totaliter, ck, ck, ck.

Salam.
--
<^_^>				Freddy Soewito; soewito@infonode.ingr.COM
*---Disclaimer:
None of the opinions represents the view of Intergraph Corporation in anyway.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.turkish,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.iranian
From: jerrys@holly.wimsey.bc.ca (Jerry Sturge)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: JESUS HAS DIED - *
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 12:15:52 PDT
Distribution: world               
Organization: CANCOM, VANCOUVER, B.C./ CANADA


I will just say that I would appreciate not seeing the same type of 
discussion. I have so far enjoyed reading this newsgroup.
Please try to keep it friendly. I am aware of the need to express 
your thoughts, but like anything else we must ALWAYS respect each other.

J Sturge
CANCOM TECHNOLOGIES
VANCOUVER/BC



Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.turkish,talk.religion.misc
From: an1600@anon.penet.fi (homeless)
Subject: Re: On Corruption and Comission (a respond to Iqbal's post)
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:43:39 GMT



>   Agree! I do believe that we need more democratic system to le the people
					  /\/\/\/\/\
    What kind of democracy ?
>   participate in controlling the government.

>  We have to wonder not about the money, but why the public service can not 
>  better. Can't the railroad make profit? More people need it than golf fieeld
   Are you expecting that the business man would like to build a giant thing as
   rail road, I am afraid that it will not work. Please be real, a thing like
   rail road needs beside a huge money also raises many social and politics 
   problems.
   I don't say that the rail road can't make profit, but I think that you will
   agree with me that evento reach break even point will need many 
  (if we wont say many  many) years.

>  We need not only deregulation in economics, but in politics too.
						      /\/\/\/\/\
   Would you please tell some more about your opinion, thank you?.

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Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: silaba@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Togar Arifin Silaban)
Subject: New issues
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:41:10 GMT



Hallo, rekan-rekan dimana saja berada.

Mengamati perkembangan a.c.i ini ada beberapa hal yang patut dicatat
(terbatas pada pengamatan saya pribadi saja). Beberapa bulan yang lalu aci
dipenuhi dengan artikel mengenai Timor Timur, sampai-sampai jenuh rasanya
membacanya. Kemudian perlahan-lahan berkembang topik lain, seperti olah
raga, turisme, istilah komputer dalam bahasa Indonesia dan informasi lain.
Sampai saat ini yang paling banyak dibahas adalah peristilahan komputer
dalam bahasa Indonesia, atau bagaimana mengindonesiakan istilah-istilah
komputer.

Bagaimana kalau isu-isu lain juga dikembangkan di forum ini, karena
kebetulan anda yang ada di a.c.i. ini mungkin punya informasi yang dapat
dibagikan kepada teman-teman lainnya. Isu yang dikembangkan tentu saja
yang dapat memberikan sumbangan pemikiran bagi Indonesia. Karena itu
sengaja saya lontarkan hal ini dalam bahasa Indonesia supaya yang terutama
memikirkan hal ini adalah kita orang Indonesia. (Jangan lupa bahwa anda
hanya sejumlah kecil dari 180 juta orang Indonesia yang mendapat kesempatan
menggunakan jalur a.c.i). Isu-isu apa saja dapat dikemukakan mulai dari
sains, teknologi, sosial, ekonomi, politik, pembangunan, turisme,
lingkungan, kesenian, kebudayaan dan lain-lainnya.

Beberapa alternatif topik saya lontarkan berikut ini misalnya:
 1. SUKSESI KEPEMIMPINAN DI ERA 90 AN.
 2. ARAH PEMBANGUNAN JANGKA PANJANG TAHAP KE DUA.
 3. PERLINDUNGAN BAGI TENAGA KERJA WANITA DI INDONESIA, KHUSUSNYA
    PEKERJA-PEKERJA DI INDUSTRI MANUFAKTURING.
 4. PENCEMARAN DI TELUK JAKARTA.
 5. MEMPERKENALKAN PULAU MENTAWAI SEBAGAI OBYEK PARIWISATA.
 6. KORUPSI, PERMASALAHAN DAN PENANGANNYA DI INDONESIA.
 7. PERKEMBANGAN MUSIK ROCK DI INDONESIA.
 8. TREND REMAJA INDONESIA DI ERA 90 AN.
 9. PERLUKAN INDONESIA MENGEMBANGKAN REAKTOR NUKLIR?
10. PROTEKSI TERHADAP INDUSTRI OTOMOTIF YANG BERLEBIHAN.
11.

Banyak lagi topik-topik yang dapat dikemukakan, yang diatas hanya sekedar
beberapa contoh yang mungkin dapat dibahas lebih lanjut. Atau dapat
dikemukana topik-topik lain yang lebih menarik. Siapa tau dari pembahasan
di a.c.i. ini suatu saat dapat dipublikasikan di Indonesia dan memberikan
sumbangan pemikiran bagi Indonesia.

Walaubagaimanapun hal itu semua terpulang kepada anda semua, apakah anda
berminat atau tidak. Saya pribadi ingin sekali mendapat informasi dari
anda sekalian mengenai topik-topik diatas.

Sampai disini dari saya.
Salam. 

Togar Arifin Silaban
Department of Civil Engineering
University of Manitoba, Canada
Email: silaba@ccu.umanitoba.ca

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: maulana@duteca8.et.tudelft.nl (exit)
Subject: RE: JESUS HAS DIED - *
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:31:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.233551.46284@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, hsiahaan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> It is simply unwise to put this kind of posting here. Why ?
>  1. Indonesians are group of people of different religions. This makes reli-
> gion a very sensitive matter. Telling others what you think a fact according
> to your religion might offend and upset others.
>  2. What are called 'facts' by one religion might be completely false by other
> religion(s). 
>  3. Basing arguments on religions are both 'in-arguable' and 'mis-leading'. 
> In-arguable by the beliefers of that particular religion, and mis-leading by
> beliefers of other religions. Remember, most religions give no flexibility:
> just believe, or you die.
>  4. This posting can lead to tensions among the readers, just as what happened
> in soc.cul.asean not long ago. This tension finally became the ridiculous
> name-calling, religious slurs, and other kinds of bashings.

  Saya sependapat dengan saudara. Saya juga nggak sreg ada posting semacam itu.
  Tahukah Anda bahwa perasaan 'nggak sreg' atau terganggu juga dialami oleh banyak
  orang di Indonesia, yang harus meladeni orang-orang yang datang ke rumahnya
  untuk menyebarkan kabar gembira atau keimanannya pada orang yang beriman lain.
  Saya bisa merasakan kejengkelan Anda, karena saya sering dijengkelkan dengan
  kasus-kasus seperti itu.

> 
> So, please those be the postings of such kind !
> 
> HSIAHAAN
> 
> NB. Out of curiousity, is the poster an Indonesian ? Or not ?
  Orang-orang yang datang ke rumah-rumah itu orang Indonesia juga. Tapi saya 
  nggak tahu tentang poster yang anda maksud.


  Ikbal (Maulana@dutecca.et.tudelft.nl)
  
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culturelebanon,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.turkish,talk.religion.misc
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: JESUS HAS DIED - Introduction to the Series.
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:23:03 GMT



PROPHET  JESUS  HAS   DIED   -   INTRODUCTION   TO   THE   SERIES
*****************************************************************


There was a time when the circumstances surrounding the crucifix-
ion of Jesus was a matter of great debate between Ahmadis and non
Ahmadis Muslims.

Whereas Ahmadi Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet who died  like
all other human beings, a great majority of Muslims held the view
that Jesus was taken to Heaven by Allah  and  a  Jesus-look-alike
was crucified by the Jews instead.

Few non Ahmadi scholars today like to  raise  the  topic  of  the
death  of  Jesus.  To most it has become a non issue.  They would
rather vigorously propound their  interpretation  of  khatam  na-
biyyin.   It  has  become  the "flavor of the month" so to speak.
The majority of Muslims appear to be indifferent  or  just  plain
uninterested.

A more interesting change in the attitude of Muslim scholars  has
been  in  the total abandonment of the belief that Jesus is alive
in Heaven. Only recently I ordered books from the Juma Musjid  in
Toronto,  the largest non-Ahmadi Mosque in Toronto.  One book en-
titled "Myth of the Cross" by Al Hajj Ajijola gave  full  support
to  the Ahmadiyya view that Jesus died a natural death.  Similar-
ly, well known Muslim scholars such as Ahmed Deedat back the  Ah-
madiyya position on Jesus.  Moreover, several commentaries of the
Quran from Egypt, one of them endorsed by Al Azhar, now interpret
the verses regarding the death of Jesus as Ahmadis do.

I will present a series of articles on the death of Jesus,  based
on  the Quran, the Hadith, and books of history. This series con-
sists of four parts, which will follow shortly.


Dr. Tahir Ijaz, M.D.



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From: hsiahaan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: <None>
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:51:50 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

>>It is simply unwise to put this kind of posting here. Why ?
>> 1. Indonesians are group of people of different religions. This makes reli-
>>gion a very sensitive matter. Telling others what you think a fact according
>>to your religion might offend and upset others.
>> 2. What are called 'facts' by one religion might be completely false by other
>>religion(s). 
>> 3. Basing arguments on religions are both 'in-arguable' and 'mis-leading'. 
>>In-arguable by the beliefers of that particular religion, and mis-leading by
>>beliefers of other religions. Remember, most religions give no flexibility:
>>just believe, or you die.
>> 4. This posting can lead to tensions among the readers, just as what happened
>>in soc.cul.asean not long ago. This tension finally became the ridiculous
>>name-calling, religious slurs, and other kinds of bashings.

>Saya sependapat dengan saudara. Saya juga nggak sreg ada posting semacam itu.
>Tahukah Anda bahwa perasaan 'nggak sreg' atau terganggu juga dialami oleh ba-
>nyak orang di Indonesia, yang harus meladeni orang-orang yang datang ke rumahnya
>untuk menyebarkan kabar gembira atau keimanannya pada orang yang beriman lain.
>Saya bisa merasakan kejengkelan Anda, karena saya sering dijengkelkan dengan
>kasus-kasus seperti itu.

We agree on basic principles in this matter. But notice these: 
 1. You can say 'No, please do not come again' to those people come to your
house. And if you choose to accept them, you can do one-on-one discussion.
 2. Remember, 'nggak sreg' feeling also exists among people whose sleeps are 
'bothered' by the 'noise' from the so-called 'a call for pray' every morning
and afternoon. You can say that it is the 'proper thing to do since it is
written in the Holly Book'. But what those people come to your house do that
based on the same thing: they are called to do it by their Holly Book.
 3. The postings are reachable by people everywhere. It is not a 'one-on-one'
communication. Hence, it can lead to 'debat-kusir' among readers.
  
Again, religion is indeed a sensitive issue. That is why it is unwise (not 
wrong) to have public debate about it. A one-on-one discussion is probably 
better. 

BTW:
 - I have sent letters to the writter of the postings and haven't got any an-
swer yet.
 - I prefer not to have any debate on this any further, except for a friendly,
logic-based (not anger-based), and tolerance-constructive discussion. Prefer-
ably, a one-on-one discussion, otherwise others think differently .
 - If there is a minute sign that the discussion will lead to religious-tension
I suggest to stop it.

HSIAHAAN
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: swindoro@iastate.edu (Hulk Hogan)
Subject: JESUS HAS DIED
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:34:54 GMT

This guy who posted the article of JESUS HAS DIED is a damn jerk !
What is the purpose of posting that kind of article in this newsgroup ?
Want to create a tension ? Now guys, please don't post anything that
might offend anybody. By the way who asked him if Jesus had died or not
that made him post that article ?

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: root@informatik.uni-muenchen.de (Edy Soesanto Prawirohardjo Systemverwalter CIP-Pool LMU Muenchen)
Subject: Internet in Indonesia
Keywords: Network
Originator: root@lombok.dbs.informatik.uni-muenchen.de
Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 11:10:11 GMT


Hi all,

Saya mohon infomasi dari teman-teman yang mengenal contact-person di Indonesia
yang mengurusi soal Internet di Indonesia.

Saya disini sedang mengadakan kontakt dengan beberapa orang yang bekerja di DDN
Network Information Centre SRI International di Menlo Park.

Contact yang saya bina ini dalam rangka mengurus Network baru yang saya kerjakan
di Jerman. Dalam kesempatan itu saya ingin juga mengaktivkan Internet di
Indonesia, kalau hal ini sampai sekarang belum terselesaikan.

Saya mohon bantuan teman-teman untuk informasi tentang Internet di Indonesia.
Sejauh mana hal ini sudah dikerjakan dan siapa contact person nya.


terima kasih atas bantuannya



salam
edy
(Arek Malang, lulusan SMA Dempo 84)
 

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia