From: v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:01:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan11.184816.26012@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...
> 
>In article <C0JsEJ.635@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:

>> As I've said before, if the stakes are so high, why doesn't he make his presence
>> absolutely certain to absolutely everyone?  If your reply to that is "but then
>> *everyone* would decide to follow god", realize that this is entirely my point.
>> Why the peek-a-boo games?

>If God were to come down here and perform some miracles, would you believe?  If
>were to feed five thousand people with only a few loaves of bread and two fish,
>would you believe He is God?  If He were to raise the dead, would you believe
>that He is God?  

If he did it in front of my eyes (and I was pretty sure there wasn't any LSD
in my water or any simple sleight-of-hand), I'd likely be convinced.  If he
solved famous logical conundrums when asked at press conferences around the
world, I'd be convinced.  However, dubious 2000-year-old testimonials don't
convince me.  

>You would argue that maybe those people weren't hungry or maybe the
>guy wasn't really dead.  

I'd know if I was hungry, and I'd probably know (in your theory) if I was
dead.  

>He has done the miracles before mortal eyes, and still
>they would not believe.  I don't think it would be any different especially in
>today's skeptical age.

Today's age is (relatively) skeptical because many of the claims made by 
religious folk - flat earths, geocentric models of the universe - have been
refuted or replaced by more testable models.  

>Why the peek-a-boo game?  Maybe to test our faith.  

That's exactly the complaint I'd voiced at the beginning of all this.  If he's
testing our faith, he's playing games with us.  I won't date women who want 
to love me but constantly test me, so why should I worship a god that 
demonstrates such a lack of self-confidence?

>God exists on a spiritual
>plane as well as the physical.  I have felt Him on that spiritual plane through
>my prayers.  You cannot touch or see love but it is real nonetheless.  And God is
>love.

These are all assertions.  Here are some of my own:

My assertion is that everything is on a physical plane.  One's sense of 
spirituality could simply arise from a strong sense of awe (which even
we atheists get) mixed with a strong tendency to anthropomorphize.  Perhaps 
when one says that "god is with me", one is simply personifying one's own 
subconscious mental processing*.  One also cannot touch or see such processes.

*(Being a cognitive psychologist in training, I can't stand the baggage that
this phrase brings along in such debates, but I can't think of a better "lay"
term.) 

I have believed both sets of assertions at different points in my life.  
Because they both produce the same end result, I've chosen the one that 
makes the most sense to me, and has the most support.  In this case, I believe
that latter set of assumptions fits the bill better.  

******************************************************************************
For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc