HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: revdak@netcom.com (D. Andrew Kille)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: *   help    *
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:20:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

: I am trying to discuss with someone the idea of the historicity of the gospels
: He wants to know why he 
: should accept the miracle accounts and the general historicity of the New 
: Testament and not accept miracle accounts in other books and/or religions.  

He has a real point.  Christians are often too ready to discount any and
every aspect of any other religion that isn't what they define as "Christian".
(This bias is used against other christians as well.)  If one is going to
argue that miracles are historically factual, one has to account for them
in other traditions as well.

Nor is it satisfactory simply to say, "my tradition's miracles come from God-
yours come from the devil.  That was precisely the accusation made against
Jesus.

D.Andrew Kille
Graduate Theological Union
VOCATUS ATQUE NON VOCATUS, DEUS ADERIT
From: mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com (Wanda L McCrae)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is God male, female or neither?
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:36:04 GMT
Reply-To: mmrwlm@sn096.uca
Organization: General Electric

I told a friend of mine once that it is only within the narrow
limits of our human minds that we must see God as having a gender.
In the Bible, God is referred to in the masculine, so that is
what I do as well.  But I don't fault anyone who uses the
feminine.  I'm sure God knows who we are talking about. :-)

Wanda

---
-----------------------------------------------------
mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com
"If all the world hated you, and believed you wicked,
 while your own conscience approved you, and absolved
 you from guilt, you would not be without friends."
      _Jane_Eyre_
From: labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com (Joel Labson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Jokes
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:52:56 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

did anybody keeps a collection of jokes posted here???? I appreciate an
e-mail copy of them......

to all the jokers....please continue telling jokes....(clean ones)

-- 

labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Science and God
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:42:25 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

>it's more complex than that.  It's not a set of matter that's
>exploding so much as space-time itself.  Also, there's no actual time
>0, because in the quantum version of the model, before about 10**-33
>sec (if I recall correctly -- that's from memory), the three space and
>one time dimensions turn into 4 time dimensions.  So when you'd expect
>to find T=0, there's no time at all.)  This is all based on Paul
>Davies' book "The Mind of God".  --clh]

So, then I ask what happened before the big bang? How does the fact
that in reality it is space-time(not just matter and energy) expanding
make it so nothing happened before then? You are probably the wrong
person to ask, unless you are a physicist. Somehow, I don't understand
the significance.

john
-- 
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\

[The point I was making is that your question is meaningless.  Since
the big bang involves the origin of space-time, there is nothing
before it.  "Before" is a relationship in time, so you can't talk
about "before" where there's no time.  Now it's possible that there's
some higher-dimensionality system in which we can see that our
universe is just part of the picture.  Maybe in such a context, one
can set up some higher-order equivalent of time, in which it would
make sense to ask what comes before the origin of time.  But (1) as
far as I know, there's no generally accepted model of this kind at the
moment, and (2) even if there were, it seems to me that strictly
speaking, "before" applies to relationships within our universe,
because it is a measurement along our timeline.  --clh]
From: pkammer@liege.ics.uci.edu (Peter Kammer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is God male, female or neither?
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:29:21 GMT

On the subject of God and gender:

        There does not seem to me to be any more theological problem
referring to God as She, particularly if this makes someone more
comfortable in the relationship with God.
        As you (Fiona) point out, giving gender to God gives Him a
human characteristic, and further, limits His nature (any time one limits
the nature of God it's a sure sign you're treading on theological quick
sand).
        The anthropomorphism of God makes the personal relationship
easier however.  Viewing God as Father makes the relationship easier,
but many of the _traditionally_ female characteristics are found in God.
The most obvious is "Creator", but "Protector" (could go either way) and
"Healer" also fall in this category, so I can't see any problem with
viewing God as a Mother as well as a Father.
	As a side note, I believe that, in the Trinity, the Holy Spirit (or
Holy Ghost if you prefer) has traditionally been viewed with a female
Nature, but the Spirit is a harder "Person" to relate to (my guess) for
many than the Father.

-Peter K.

------------
Peter Kammer               We are the music makers,
pkammer@ics.uci.edu           And we are the dreamers of dreams,
203peter@vax.stmarytx.edu  Yet we are the movers and shakers     --Arthur
BITNET: 203PETER@STMARYTX     Of the world for ever, it seems.    O'Shaugnessy
From: mmgall@hubcap.clemson.edu (Morris Galloway Jr.)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is God male, female or neither?
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:29:34 GMT
Organization: Clemson University

I2LY@cornella.cit.cornell.edu (Fiona) writes:

>The question of the gender (or non-gender) of God has been coming up
>in a few threads recently, and it is something I have often
>wondered about.  Bill Rea quoted a number of passages to the effect that
>God cannot be thought of as either male or female, which I absolutelyu
>agree with.  We know that God is spirit, that God does not have a physical
>body (although of course Jesus came to earth in the flesh).  The very
>concepts of male and female seem to me to be inaliebly linked to the
>existence of a body (can you tell I'm a biologist?).  Thus it seems
>meaningless to me to say God is male.  OF course, the bible talks
>about God as male, but it would be even more incorrect IMHO to talk about
>God as 'it' than 'He', since this would deny the personal nature of God.
>But i really don't see the problem with She, and it seems to me that Bill
>was contradicting himself when he first pointed out that God does not have
>a gender and then saying 'but you have to use He, not She'.  Of course
>the bible does refer to God as HE, but we are certainly not forbidden from
>saying 'she'.
>   I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.
>         Fiona

The issue for some is, "How does God reveal Himself to us?"  (I'm not
trying to beg the question by using "Himself" there.)

Jesus was very clear in referring to God as Father, and in telling us
we can approach God as our Heavenly Father.  

Each person has to decide whether that is a significant bit of revelation
about the Nature of God, or merely cultural.

I accept it as revealing something about God's Nature that He wants us to
know, and trust that He is able to choose images that will transcend
cultural differences.

My use of "He" relates more to that revelation (and the Hebrews assertion
that Jesus Himself is the "express image of His person") than to the 
male/female issue.

Other images that relate:  Husband/Wife (God and Israel, Christ and the
Church),  King.

That said, of course, both male and female are created in the image of
God.  

Grace and Peace,
Morris Galloway Jr.
From: ap932@cleveland.freenet.edu (Larry Cuy)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Movement for the Dsyfunctional
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:39:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)

It continues to amaze me how many dsyfunctional people are 
attracted to the new Christian movement.  Much of its preaching
of intolerance and hate seems to be an excellent channel for
dsyfunctional people to redirect their anger and also their
addictions.  Seems as though many of these people swept into
this movement were searching for something and found a sense
of community in the movemen.  However, they then become as
addicted to beliefs in a fanatical manner believing that they
have finally found a answer to their confusion.

It appears that many of the radical people attracted to the
movement are more clearly in need of long term psychotherapy
rather than a new belief system, i.e.- Christianity.
From: ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com (Jon Ogden)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bye-bye Home Bible Studies
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:44:46 GMT
Organization: Motorola LPA Development

>I can't believe that this kind of legislation hasn't been taken to trial.

Maybe it will soon be time to take cases to the courts fighting for the so
often ignored second half of the Bill of Rights - that is that no law shall be
passed "prohibiting the free practice thereof."  In my mind city regulations
about parking cars on streets is a subordinate law to the Bill of Rights. 
Therefore such regulations ARE unconstitutional since they prohibit someone's
free practice of religion.

Jon Ogden
-------------------------------------------------------------
ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com
ogden_j@csg06.rtsg.mot.com
Q11343@maccvm.corp.mot.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe he can acheive."
From: readyja@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (Jeffrey A Ready)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: In search of Religion
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:48:44 GMT
Reply-To: readyja@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (Jeffrey A Ready)
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman

I am a man in search of a religion that suits me best.  I believe in God,  
and I also believe that Jesus is the son of God.  I don't take the Bible  
literally.  I don't believe that non-christians always go to hell.  I  
believe in evolution.  I believe in the Big-Bang.  I believe in other  
intelligent life in the universe.  
 
I don't know what other information might be needed, but is there a  
religion out there for me?
 
Thanks

[Your position is appears to be consistent with most Christian groups
other than conservative Protestants.  This includes Catholics,
moderately liberal Protestants, as well as some groups that I normally
think of as at the "margin" of Christianity, e.g. Quakers and Mormons.
In fact we have a Southern Baptist participant who probably holds
views similar to yours.  Since you're at an educational institution, I
would think there would be on-campus religious groups.  I'd suggest
talking to a chaplain or attending services.  I don't know your
institution, but typically you'd expect to find some kind of
chaplaincy program for Catholics, and either a joint liberal
Protestant chaplaincy program, or programs from individual
denominations such as Methodist, Presbyterian (USA), Episcopal,
American Baptist, United Church of Christ, or Lutheran (ELCA).  (This
list is not exhaustive, of course.)  I believe your views would be
acceptable in all of those groups, though not all members would
necessarily agree with you.  --clh]
From: aslt@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mary an Ethiopian?
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:52:33 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

Gee, and I thought they were making that  up!  *grin*

About 10-12 years ago a group of persons of color took over a large 
abandoned church building in my <inner city) college neighborhood.
They named their church building Shrine of the Black Madonna #10.
They promptly grew very fast, within a few years acquiring several
nearby apt complexes with the names Shrine of the Black Madonna 
#10 Men's Quarters, etc.  They had quite an active neighborhood
'missionary' effort, handing out tracts and such.  

This is a long way of saying that yes I have run into this before.
I ran into one of the  folks from ShrineoftheBlackMadonnaNumber10
outside the local Tarjet distributing literature, and that's
when he told me that Mary was really an Ethiopian, I must 
admit that I couldn't suppress a sad chuckle because I figured that
yet someone else had got themselves a cult scam going.

Sheer speculation starts here:  I don't see how Mary could have been
an Ethiopian given the Hebrew (and some would say God's) obsession
with racial purity.  The geneology almost precludes it, as well.  Not 
to mention that I imagine that Ethiopian Jews  were, ah, rare.

END SheerSpeculation

Lee
From: vek@allegra.att.com (Van Kelly)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Science and God
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:34:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ, USA

Dear Martin:

MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu wrote:

>  Science bases itself in reality, as opposed to religion.  Religious
>  people still use science to get by in reality; religion, on the other
>  hand, is not required in science. And that is the problem to me as an
>  unbeliever. Religion seems to me to be an additional set of beliefs
>  which seem unnecessary. I can acknowledge that I have beliefs which I
>  use to function. But I don't see the relevance of religion.

For those seriously interested in a succinct thesis on the interplay
between the philosophies of science and religion, I recommend a recent
book by Roy Clouser: _The Myth of Religious Neutrality_ (Notre Dame
Press).  Clouser's argument is roughly thus:

a.  One of the most basic functions of theology is to explain
    ontological independence and dependency.  In Western pagan thought, 
    that which is ontologically independent (abstractly "divine")
    resides within the physical world, though more concentrated in
    some entities (variously: gods, ideals, numbers) than others.
    Eastern thought tends to treat reality is a speck of illusion floating 
    in a sea of divinity.  Classical monotheism postulates the transcendence
    of the divine over the physical, although both are real.

b.  Views of ontological independence, which are in their essence religious,
    have a major impact on a culture's ability to sustain scientific
    endeavor.  If physical reality is popularly considered either unreal
    or fatalistic (in a sense that the determined course is knowable in
    its rough outline without resort to science), then the establishment of
    science as a central cultural enterprise faces an uphill battle.

c.  Personal views on ontological independence have been responsible for
    some of the most acrimonious disputes in the history of science.  For
    example, the tenacity of "steady state universe" advocates in the
    face of the burgeoning evidence for an finite event horizon (a.k.a.
    a "Big Bang" of some sort) is not based in the measurement of
    the data, but overtly one of whether matter can be regarded as
    ontologically independent.  These views may have extensive philosophical
    content, but their hold on the individual scientist lies in the
    realm of personal religion.

Clouser argues that among the various theological systems and their
permutations, classical monotheism is intrinsically the most
hospitable to science for the long haul, glitches like Galileo
notwithstanding.  I don't (yet) agree with Clouser's whole book, but I
really like most of it.  I'd also like to plug the American Scientific
Affiliation as one forum where such issues are regularly published and
discussed.  Martin, there may be a local ASA chapter in central PA;
I'll check if you're interested.  Most well-connected theology
libraries will carry the ASA journal.

Van Kelly
vek@allegra.att.com

The above opinions are my own, an do not reflect those of my employer.
From: ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com (Jon Ogden)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT prophecy about praying for CLINTON
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:45:10 GMT
Organization: Motorola LPA Development

In article <Jan.25.01.49.12.1993.11415@athos.rutgers.edu> hudson (Paul Hudson
Jr) writes:

>Like Solomon, Clinton will call out to God for wisdom.  Just as Solomon's
>first test came over the issue of life, this will also be one of Clinton's
>major issues, not only abortion, but also euthenasia.  If we will pray for it,
>God will give Bill Clinton His wisdom to rule the country.
>
So far Slick Willy has failed miserably on the abortion count.  However, I did
hear some interesting "scuttle-but" about some things he has done.  I
understand that a few weeks ago, Mr. Clinton met with several influential
church leaders including Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church and Dr.
Robert Schuller among others.  From what I understand (I have heard this second
or third hand) Bill Clinton asked the men to pray for him and also asked them
for what their concerns, etc. were.  Reportedly the President is not a
Christian in the New Testament sense, but he is someone who is spiritually
open.  

We definitley should keep him in our prayers..Yet at the same time, we must
continue to press for change and the re-institution of morality back into our
society.

Jon Ogden
-------------------------------------------------------------
ogden_jon@macmail1.rtsg.mot.com
ogden_j@csg06.rtsg.mot.com
Q11343@maccvm.corp.mot.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe he can acheive."
From: jprzybyl@skidmore.edu (jennifer przybylinski)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christian Research Institute (CRI)
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:46:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: athos.Jan.24.23.46.54.1993.2998
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY

I am also in the Assemblies of God (Calvary Lighthouse, NJ) and have
never heard of CRI.  I, too, would appreciate any more comments on
this organization.  Does anyone know what exactly are the
organization's qualms with Benny Hinn and or Kenneth Copeland?  I must
admit that I was surprised to read CRI is "against" (for lack of a
better word) such people...I've never had a problem with their
programs/ministries.

thanks!!

jenny
jprzybyl@scott.skidmore.edu

Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only that word
which is good for edification according to the need of the momement,
that it give grace to all who hear.....(Eph. 4:29)

maranatha!!
From: maridai@comm.mot.com (Marida Ignacio)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Adultery, non-marital sex, and forgiveness
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:42:51 GMT
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector

Forgive the person who has the whole-hearted will to discontinue
such a God-forbidden act and NEVER condone the action itself.
As one poster mentioned, continuing such acts shall involve
consequences which in turn will/might involve/INFLUENCE
(like a fad, etc.) other people.
Christianity is not forgiving then joining in with the God-forbidden
act.  Christianity is about forgiveness for the love and words
of God and a stability to maintain such attachment (not detachment)
to God's will.

Peace in Christ,
-Marida
 Marian devotion:"To Jesus, through Mary"
From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ARMSTRONGISM
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:47:36 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

It is not my attempt to downplay the role in which CRI plays.
I subscribe to their newsletter and have, on occasion, listened
to their radio answer man show.  I do not wish to classify them
as "liberal" or "conservative".  If labels were to be
used, I would probably pick new-evangelical.  They are certainly
not fundamentalists.  They do believe, as an organization, in the
supernatural gifts of the Spirit in today's times, which I, and
which John MacArthur do not agree with.

They were VERY clear on their position of the blood atonement
on the broadcast I heard.  There really wasn't any possibility
of misunderstanding.
I believe it was imperative for Christ to shed His blood to cover the sins
of mankind.  A Christ who was bludgeoned to death would not have sufficed,
and indeed, would not have occurred since it was Christ's intent to offer
an acceptable sacrifice.  Jesus Christ needed to be sin free (spotless) and
shed His blood.  There is no compromise on this point and I believe God's
word is very clear on this.
  As far as CRI is concerned, I subscribe to their magazine and I occasionally
listen to their Bible Answer Man show.  Yes, they are very compassionate when they
deal with callers of other religions, even cults.  But the day I listened
to them over this John MacArthur issue, they were outright condescending toward
those that stood against John MacArthur on this issue.  They even ridiculed them
and all had a good laugh.  No exageration!  I was shocked, dismayed, and angered.
Those they ridiculed tended to be from fundamental backgrounds, Bob Jones
University and Pensecola Christian Academy were two institutions mentioned by
name.  They also attacked one of the staff of BJU.  Amazing how tolerant they are 
and aware of the sensitivity in dealing with cultists, but then they openly
ridicule men who stand firm in the faith.
  Because of this one episode, I have chosen not to support CRI in any way ever
again.
mc
From: news@cs.ruu.nl (Six O'Clock News)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Online bible
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:25:48 GMT
Reply-To: piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum)
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Utrecht University, The Netherlands

>>>>> eng10205@nusunix1.nus.sg (LING SIEW WEE) (LSW) writes:


LSW> I managed to find the online bible in there. But there are so many files
LSW> to get!! I have to transfer those files to my own personal network
LSW> directory (which is limited to 1MB), before I can copy to
LSW> diskettes or transfer back to home through modem. By the look of those
LSW> files, I think I need to spend the whole day in school to transfer and
LSW> copy and delete... Do anyone has a better method of ftp??

It may be better to wait before you ftp, as the person who uploaded the
files told me that a new version is to arrive soon (he said this month).
The new version will have more features, but you don't have to download
everything.
-- 
Piet* van Oostrum, Dept of Computer Science, Utrecht University,
Padualaan 14, P.O. Box 80.089, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands.
Telephone: +31 30 531806   Uucp:   uunet!mcsun!ruuinf!piet
Telefax:   +31 30 513791   Internet:  piet@cs.ruu.nl   (*`Pete')