From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: maimonides
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:53:31 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

Wow!

I set aside tpm for a few days while pursuing discussions in
private mail, and when I returned I found nearly a megabyte of
new messages had accumulated. Obviously one cannot take one's eye
off this newsgroup for too long without falling far behind.

Among the new posts are some extraordinarily well-informed
analyses of Maimonides. This newsgroup can display some real
brilliance when some members choose to get beyond the level of
mutual thrash and slash.

In any case, I will try to read through all the new posts in the
next few days, and reply to the high points. The personal abuse
from now on I am just going to ignore as matter of principle and
practicality. There's no time to mess with it.

In the meantime, will one or two Maimonides experts please focus
on this single passage (below) from Epistle to Yemen and
explicate it for me? What I find troublesome is the notion that
"the issue of Ishmael" will not be favored by God. We also see
references to "the offspring of Isaac" and "the illustrious
scions of Isaac." The language and imagery is clearly genetic and
biological.

Are users here arguing that the language is ONLY symbolic? Please
try to convince me that this is the case. I have an open mind,
and will listen carefully. The language sounds both symbolic and
literal to me. I know for a fact that at least some Israelis take
this symbology in a quite literal way, and view the Arabs as "the
issue of Ishmael." As I recall, David Shipler discussed this
current of Israeli thought in his Pulitzer prize winning book,
Arab and Jew.

Even on a symbolic level, the language is troubling to any
contemporary humanist who takes the point of view that supreme
enlightenment, divine wisdom, etc. are pretty much equally
distributed among the human race, without regard to ancestors,
peoples, offspring, scions, etc.

Please quote for me the single best brief passage from
Maimonides' works which would support the idea that he had a
purely symbolic intention in mind in this passage, with no regard
to peoples out there in the real world.

And keep in mind that the best way to present Judaism to non-Jews
is not to get defensive or abusive, but to calm down and try to
explain the doctrine in a friendly and helpful fashion.

Thanks.

Here's the passage:

     There is no question that the Divine assurance to Abraham to
     bless his descendants, to reveal the Torah to them, and to
     make them the Chosen People, refers only to the offspring of
     Isaac. For Ishmael is mentioned as an adjunct and appendage
     in the blessing of Isaac, which reads "and also of the son
     of the bond-woman will I make a nation." (Genesis 21:13).
     This verse suggests that Isaac holds a primary position and
     Ishmael a subordinate place. This point is made even more
     explicit in the blessing which ignores Ishmael entirely.
     "For in Isaac shall seed be called in thee." (Genesis
     21:12).  The meaning of God's promise to Abraham is that the
     issue of Ishmael will be vast in numbers but neither
     pre-eminent nor the object of divine favor, nor
     distinguished for the attainment of excellence. Not because
     of them will Abraham be famed or celebrated, but by the
     noted and illustrious scions of Isaac.

P.S. The dispute over Maimonides' Epistle to Yemen in no way
obviates the fact that many prominent Jews viewed the Jews as a
race. I was strongly reminded of this point yesterday when I
reread Isaiah Berlin's essay in Against The Current on Moses
Hess, the ideological godfather of Zionism. I will post some
passages from Berlin's essay in a few days. Hess's remarks are
probably more controversial than those of even Jabotinsky.

Hess is not a nobody. He pretty much invented Zionism. I highly
recommend the Berlin collection of essays, especially the items
on Hess, Disraeli, and Karl Marx.
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