From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: In defense of Peter 
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:26:40 CDT

[Warning: LONG, and downright petty in places.]
In article <1992Oct2.195902.23980@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>
>By (Muriel Nelson):
>>In article nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>>
>>>Adrienne, by the way, did not use a smiley when she came up
>>>with that story about hearing women screaming at doctors to
>>>stop delivering their children.  Part of her prerogative as
>>>Lady High Everything Else, you see, is to leave them off.
>>It is a measure of your misogyny that you fail to appreciate
>>Adrienne.  
>"Appreciate"?  Adrienne who's so bitter and angry she devalues
>motherhood at every opportunity?
>
Nawwww.  You must be talking about a _different_ Adrienne.
I'm talking about the one who bought her daughter a pony.
>
>>She is a doggedly consistent defender of individual
>>choice for women, 
>And the trashing of children.
>
Huh?  Sounds to me like Adrienne treats her children very well.

>                de
>                ^      <cute touch, Suzanne. NOT.>
>>and a system of values which places the life
>>and life plans of a thinking, feeling, living, breathing woman
>>above the interests of potential lives in all cases.  
>Even when those lives are very REAL, and whose only crime
>is simple dependency on their mothers.
>
Their lives as individual humans are still just potential
while they are fetuses, Suzanne.  And I never said they
were criminals.
>
>>If you
>>find this irritating, it speaks volumes about you.  
>It sure speaks about you and Adrienne, doesn't it.
>
Yep.
>
>>Adrienne
>>has asked you to leave off the "Lady High" sarcastic bullshit.
>>I'm asking you, too.
>And I am asking him to continue it _forever_, because it is all too true.
>Not only does Adrienne's arrogance make her think she is above everyone
>else in the net, but it makes her think she has to the right to kill
>other human beings who simply get in her way.
>
Gee, does Adrienne make a habit of offing all those
obnoxious folk who get ahead of her in line at the
supermarket?  I'd think she'd get arrested.  And I 
certainly don't think Adrienne is above everyone else
on the net.  She must be pretty close to sea level.
At 7000 feet, I bet I'm above most people on the net,
except for perhaps the inimitable Steve Novak.
>
>>Perhaps the reason you don't see a smiley on the posting about
>>women screaming at doctors is because it wasn't intended to be 
>>funny.  
>Perhaps it was even a lie.   

Why Suzanne, what a sweet thing to say.
I've attended a number of births besides those of my
own children, and I believe Adrienne.

>                            I have seen women screaming in childbirth, but
>it was _never_ to make doctors stop delivering their babies.  It was _always_
>a plea for them to hurry the process and get it over with.
>
And I'm sure your experience with maternity wards is
very extensive.  

>>It was intended to make you think about your twisted sense 
>>of priorities, 
>Holy Cow!  

Hmm.  Getting into Hinduism now?

>Adrienne is the most twisted person on the net, and you're joining her!
>
I'll twist and shout with Adrienne anytime.

>>which focuses in so tightly on the suffering of
>>a few women who've had negative experiences with abortion, and
>Far more than a "few"!
>
Relative to the number of women who have abortions,
problems are few.
>
>>completely glosses over the very real suffering of millions of
>>women who go through long and complicated labors and deliveries.
>You know, even women with long complicated labors and deliveries manage 
>to get over it emotionally and even go on to have MORE children!   WHY?
>Because the overall outcome -- a beautiful child they quickly fall in love
>with -- is POSITIVE!
>
This ain't always so.  A very loving couple I know were
_years_ in resuming a normal sex life because the woman
was so turned off to her sexuality after a very traumatic
birth.  Although the baby was beautiful, he was a very
fussy little guy.  My friend does love him very much, but
she had a very difficult time recovering, physically _and_
emotionally, because she got so little rest.
>
>>If you gave this some serious thought, it might occur to you
>>that childbirth is a much more prolonged and violent experience
>>than abortion, 
>Whereas the experience of women all over the world who suffer the violence
>of abortion, forever have only the pain and NEGATIVE outcome to associate
>with their experience.
>
Many women experience a great deal of relief.
>
>>an experience which should never be forced on an
>>unwilling woman.
>For Pete's sake, Muriel, you're addressing the one man on the net who's been
>providing documentation of women who've been having ABORTIONS FORCED on them!

Yes, and he's trying to justify taking choice away from
other women because these women had their choice removed.
You find this admirable?

>and attempting to DEFEND THEM!   Who, as a very participatory father, sees the
>positive outcome of childbirth, that even you two women, Adrienne and Muriel,
>can't manage to see!
>
I see it every day, Suzanne.  I also know how hard it's been
for me, and I wanted both of my pregnancies very much. 
Unlike you, I don't want to see other women deprived of
their choices.  I think pregnancy and birth are difficult,
and being the mother of three teenagers is an order of
magnitude more difficult than anything else I've ever done.
Trust me on this.
If a woman says she can't handle it, that's reason enough for me.

muriel
standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: talk.abortion