From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tom Li)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:24:19 GMT


In article <1992Dec29.180935.10717@cbnews.cb.att.com>, liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao) writes...
>
>I am very glad to see responses. Like some other friends said, what we need
>is open-minded discussions/debates on this big issue instead of propaganda
>on the two poles.

I agree. 

I think "independence no matter what" or "unification no matter what" are two 
extremes. Compromise or truth can come out of open-minded discussion/debates.

>I think "Chinese" is confusing. When I say "I am not a Chinese", I am saying
>"I am not a Chung-Kuo Ren." I believe almost all TIers will not deny their
>inheritance. Everybody should be proud of being a "Hwa Ren". But not
>necessarily everybody wants to be a "Chung-Kuo Ren." "Chinese" simply has
>two major meanings that sometimes confusion just cannot be avoided.

When you say "I am a Chinese", people will not think you are citizen of PRC 
but wonder where are you from? Taiwan, Mainland, HK, or US. This is 
well-accepted definition of "Chinese". But if you say "I am not a Chinese", 
very clearly you are not Chinese nationality but also very likely you deny 
your Chinese race. And that is really confusing.

>Chinese military confrontation is always possible. It doesn't matter what
>situation we are in. Take Hong-Kong as a example, as long as you are
>against Beijing's will, they will always threaten you with force. Okay,
>let's say we are unified. Both sides agree "One China, two systems" (or
>whatever.) Do you think Beijing won't bother us thereafter and we "live
>happily forever?"

The situation in Hong-Kong is very different from ours. That is why KMT 
insists the Hong-Kong example can not be applied to us.

CCP's China said only if Taiwan declares independence she will use forces. 
She is also against the idea of "Two Chinas" but never said she will use 
forces on it. Therefore, The advantage of "Two Chinas" is that Taiwan can 
disclaim her sovereignty of the Mainland territory to reflect the reality 
but keeping "China" identity for possible future unification and also avoid 
the war. In the meantime, Taiwan should simplify the political structure to 
meet the need of the Taiwan island only. I think "Two Chinas" is a good 
compromise and can pave the way to unification or independence.

>Again, take Hong-Kong as an example on peace, don't you think people in HK
>already give peace a chance? What they want is only democracy not violence.
>It is China that threatened to "take over HK in 6 hours." It is China that
>won't give peace a chance. The same thing to Taiwan. We always long for
>peace, don't we? If it is because we make some decision that bothers China
>and they madly start a war, who indeed not give peace a chance?

Sadly HK people has little to say about their future. People in Taiwan do 
have. But the issue is that do we really need to declare formal independence 
at the risk of war since we already enjoy defacto independence.

>About other forms of unification, I think most TIers do not preclude
>the possibility of commonwealth from happening. Like you say, the bottom
>line is that we are a "nation." Unfortunately, both KMT and CCP don't
>like the idea of "Two China" although KMT won't be against it realisticly.

My impression is that the KMT government has quietly shifted from "One-China" 
to "Two Chinas" but have not openly talked about it.

>The problem is it takes both sides to define the form of unification.
>That means we have no control to the result. It is at best a negotiation.
>If you don't like China to dominate the result, do you really want to
>give it a try?

Why not? If we cannot get satisfactory results then there is no unification
and we have nothing to lose.

>The difference is here. For independence, we control the result and we
>decide the time frame. I have to say it again and again that independence
>won't be cheap. We need to pay for it. But the bottom line is that
>we work hard to earn us and our offspring a better living on our homeland
>ourselves. That's the true meaning of independence.

So does unification. I agree with KMT's unification policy, that is, there is 
no timetable for unification and unification will come only when "China" 
becomes a free, democratic, and wealth-balanced nation. Before then, keep two 
sides separated but improve the relations. Anyone has problem with that?

>Nobody can give the correct answers before an independence really happens,
>right? Anyway, if you were a foreign country, do you think it makes sense
>that Taiwan administration still claims the ownership of China and Mongolia?
>Will things get better if we stay where we are? Okay, let's say we announce
>that we won't make the claim anymore. Then, does it make sense that we
>still use the name of "Republic of China". As long as we still use the same
>name, the fact of "two China" still exist. As long as "two China" still
>exist, others still have to consult with our Big Brother China (PRC) for
>their positions.
>
>Speaking of independence, will it make an even worse diplomatic isolation
>than now? I really don't think so. We know what we have now. How many
>countries in the world that suffer the same pain before? How many countries
>support the principle of "self-determination"? In reality, we also have to
>count the fact that some countries will be treatened by China. I estimate
>there will be more than 20 countries recognize this new "State of Taiwan"
>during the first week of independence declaration including some
>"important countries". One important thing is that we need to establish
>much more closer economic and other unofficial relationships with the
>core countries of EC like Germany, France, and UK.

Yes, "two China" does have its own problem so does "Republic of Taiwan".
Do you think when you declare "Republic of Taiwan" the recognition will
flow into the island? I very much doubt it. The foreign country will still 
have to consult with CCP's China. And even the worst, the war might have 
started before the recognition. 

So the only difference between "two Chinas" and "formal independence" is the 
possible war. My point is that is this war worthy to try for just the sake of 
changing name? 

>About war, I mention that before. First, we need excellent defense
>capability. Second, we do what we want to do. It doesn't make sense that
>because of the threat from our Big Brother China that we always do what
>they say yes and don't do what they say no.

Not necessary. I think we are doing fine right now certainly we can do better.
Relations with other countries is improving.

>Will independence lead us a better life? For the first year or two, we
>may have a hard time. I believe we definitely can get by. After that,
>the answer is definitely "YES."

How hard it will be? Again, is that worthy since we already have defacto 
independence. 

>From the action level point of view, I am on your side. But I prefer an
>"Action status quo, concept independence." Which means we need to prepare
>for independence before we say it. 

I agree with "Action status quo, concept independence." That is what I mean
defacto independence for now.

>We really don't have too much time. For a time frame of 10 to 20 years, is
>it possible that we catch up with Japan, EC, and US? I am pessimistic on
>this. On the other hand, is it possible that Guangdong, Fujian catch up
>with Taiwan in 10 to 20 years? It is quite possible. Countries like us
>heavily count on export/import. At that time, China will not only have
>military threat. They will also be likely to have economic threat. I am
>afraid that Taiwan will have to listen to Beijing and live a life that's
>given by Beijing at that time. I believe nobody will like it.

Why we have to think the relations with China so negatively? As long as 
China's economy progresses, the economic "threat" will come sooner or later 
no matter we are ROC or ROT. But if we get along with China convert it to 
"cooperation", will it be nice? I will not be surprised the political reform 
in China will come soon after her economic success just like what it has 
happened in Taiwan. By the time, China may be more willing to give in or 
Taiwan is more willing to unify with China, who knows? Only "time" will tell.

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