HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lippard@milori.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Date: 7 Apr 92 01:57:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: milori.6APR199218575180
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr6.043358.19095@cs.tulane.edu>, tcjw@rs1.tcs.tulane.edu (john wirta) writes...
>I just wanted to post this because I think some of y'all are missing the point
>of having experiments to prove to sceptics that magick and psychic phenomena
>_do_ exist.  The point is not to satisfy and give meaning to your own beliefs,
>It is the opportunity to show the skeptic a new way of thought.
> 
>To simply allow skeptics to just _not_ experience any other way of thinking
>is choosing to limit _their_ potential.  Whether they believe you or not, is
>not important.  If if they think you a loon for trying to prove Magick's
>existance, you have still shown them that there is another way to see reality
>..  They may not realize what you have shown them as anything valid until
>years later, or they may never realize it.  In either case, any challenge to
>a person's perception of reality will produce some result. (ie.  If the
>skeptic does not believe you, and does think you a loon, he may go out and
>laugh about it with some drinking buddies.  One of those buddies mught decide
>to investigate the subject himself, hence a new believer)  And if you
>believe that existance is controlled by the truths of the universe, then 
>eventually your effort to show that skeptic the nature, or an aspect of,
>the universe will bring and can only bring about good ultimately.
> 
>			Just a confusing blurb from the mind
>			of a believer in destiny,
> 
>				-Enki

Experiencing an "other way of thinking" is probably a good description
of what believers in ritual magic are doing.  I just read a review of
a book by an anthropologist who was a participant observer in various
groups which practice ritual magic in England, and it sounds quite
fascinating.  The book is

   T.M. Luhrmann, _Persuasions of the Witch's Craft: Ritual Magic
      in Contemporary England_, Harvard University Press, 1989.

The author of the book is skeptical, but *did* experience "some
rather unusual subjective states" (to quote the reviewer) during his
participation.  Perhaps most relevant to the present discussion is
his section on "Justifying to the Sceptics," in which he describes
four arguments used by believers.  (The review I read was in the
most recent issue of _The Skeptical Inquirer_ and was authored by
Robert McGrath, who reads this list and could probably discuss this
book in more detail.  I found the review interesting enough that I
intend to seek out a copy of the book and read it.)

>'I am the Lord of the Dance said he/I live in you, you live in me'
>-The Lord of the Dance
> 
>e-mail tcjw@rs1.tcs.tulane.edu

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Seeking Thomas Morton and/or Merry Mount references
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:27:02 GMT
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA

In article <DAN.92Apr9000046@wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> dan@wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Dan Parmenter) writes:
>Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Maypole of Merry Mount" tells the story of
>an early Massachusetts colony that celebrated Pagan revels, much to
>the annoyance of the local Puritans who dealt with them harshly.
>
>Apparently, the story is based in part, on truth.  Where the city of
>Quincy now stands, Thomas Morton established the community of Mount
>Wollostan, aka Ma-re Mount aka Merry Mount.  Morton annoyed the other
>settlers at Plymouth by trading rum and furs to the natives, cutting
>into Plymouth's trade.  They were also rather annoyed at his
>celebration of May day as a pagan revel, fearing that Merry Mount
>would become a haven for the "wrong element".  He was marked for death
>and Myles Standish was dispatched to take care of him, though he ended
>up being deported back to England rather than executed.  
>

Yup, you're right. Boy are you in luck. I just happen to have, sitting
right next to me, an old copy (from the Green Egg) of a great article
about just such a thing. The article calls it Ma-Re Mount, but the
references are wonderful (a couple are reproduced below).

_New English Cannan or New Cannan_ by Thomas Morton of Cliffords Inn,
Gent.; Jacob Frederick, Amsterdam, 1637; reprinted Arno Press, New
York, 1972; ISBN 0-405-03309-5

_The Distruber: A Full-Blooded Novel About the Man Who Scandalized
Puritan New England_ by L.S. Davidson, Jr.; MacMillan, New York, 1964.

and others that are more or less related to the subject...

Lynda
-- 
shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
TRW, One Space Park Drive, R2/2062, Redondo Beach, CA
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Warfare and women
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:40:46 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.142445.7033@bcrka451.bnr.ca> bbooth@bnr.ca (Bradley Booth) writes:
>
>In article <29EB1E70.23266@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>> When we state our opinions and those opinions are even slightly critical
>> of men in general, we are accused of saying "All men are pigs."  When we
>> state explicitly that we don't think that all men are pigs, we get
>> accused of calling all men pigs.
>
>All men are pigs! =8^)
>
>> What the fuck do you people want anyway, and give me one good reason why
>> I should care?
>
>I enjoy your comments, so just be yourself.  If others flame you about them,
>I say forget them for misinterpreting or not understanding your comments.

It can get a bit tiring and disillusioning when it happens like this,
though.  If you say something like this, and get the same reaction as if
you hadn't, it kind of makes you think that they don't listen anyway,
and just operate on a knee-jerk reaction that tells them, "Don't listen
to the bimbo.  Embarrass her and maybe she'll shut up."  It happens
rather a lot.

And thanks for the vote of confidence.  No, not all men are fucked up,
and my SO, my brothers, my dad, and my friends are proof positive
of it. 

>> 
>> Janis C.
>
>
>Keep smilin',

I'll do my best!

>
>Brad
>
>PS: reminds of a joke my wife told me "Sluts are women that sleep with everyone,
>    bitches are women that sleep with everyone but you."
>

Funny, my SO told me that one!

Blessings,
Janis C.
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Polytheism (was: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?)
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:08:48 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <HH8ZiB3w164w@status.gen.nz> ursulus@status.gen.nz (malcolm fletcher) writes:
>I would also call myself a pagan atheist, I don't believe in separate 
>Gods/Goddesses or little Godlets, but believe in much that seems pagan! 

As a person who swims in and out of theism, deism, monism, polytheism,
animism, whathaveyouism, agnosticism and atheism (depending on the mood,
the current need, who I'm talking to, and the definitions in use at the
moment), I wonder how many pagans would define themselves as strict 
polytheists? 

By this I mean, how many of us think of the gods *strictly* as a group
of divine personages, to the exclusion of other models of godhead?

I find polytheism and often useful *metaphor* (literally from the Greek
for "to talk around" something) for that which I can not adequately
express in words.

I don't believe in gods that are personages sitting in some physical 
olympus, or what have you, any more than most JCM (judeo/christian/
moslem religions folks) believe *literally* in some grey-bearded dude
sitting on a throne in the sky.  (Or, gee, am I giving most JCM types
ideas of abstraction they perhaps don't have?)

One of the hardest things that many Unitarians have with CUUPS (as a
related side note) is that they can't understand how Unitarians (who
split off from Congregationalists over the issue of the trinity) could
possibly have anything in common with a polytheist religion.  Similarly
the biggest problem that the MIT s.baptist chaplain had with the 
pagan student group using the MIT chapel was the polytheism.  Rather 
than going into the philosophy/theology behind pagan ideas of godhead,
I simply pointed out that the Vedanta Society had been meeting in the
chapel weekly for a *long* time...

So, I really want to know, I'm simply curious...  Are there a lot of
strict polytheists out there?


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:23:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.041435.7808@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> an725@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul L. Fortman, Jr.) writes:
>
>This is in regard to "Jesus was a pagan" part of the original subject.
>
>From what I know about Jesus I would say He was most likely was a 
>pagan.  It's too bad that some "christians" have done terrible things
>in the name of Jesus.
>

A while back I posted and said that Jesus, while not being a direct
kidnapping of any Celtic myth, did have similarities to Celtic
mythological figures in dying, rising, being born of a virgin and so
forth.  Someone else then posted and said, "Who?"

I looked it up.  In my reference at least, it's Cu Chulainn.

>Have you hugged a tree today?

Has a tree hugged me?  (Sorry.) 

Blessings,
Janis C.

Janis Cortese           ||   "The United States is the only country to  
U. C. Irvine            ||    have gone from barbarism to decadence  
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu ||    without passing through civilization."            
========================||                 -- H. L. Mencken 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:18:23 GMT

lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung) writes:

>What does this newsgroup have to do with the worship of 
>Greek Gods?

alt.pagan is for discussing things pagan.

The religion and Gods of the Greeks are considered to be at least borderline
pagan.  Many would consider them very pagan.

Therefore, alt.pagan discusses Greek Gods.

Gosh, Bran is using logic--what is the world coming to?

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
               --Pug and Bran
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Psychic Hotlines
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:38:43 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Modaka Systems, San Francisco

In article <702566085.F00001@mintir.fidonet.org>
Vitriol@f155.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Vitriol) writes:
>Try calling up and asking, "What do I have in my pocket right now?"

Nothing, you're just happy to see me!
-- 
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"Religion flourishes in greater purity without than with the aid
 of government." -- James Madison
From: wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 11 Apr 92 21:10:21 GMT
	<1992Apr10.062125.24252@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>OK, but this would mean that you side with the "polygenesis" folks rather
>than the "out of Africa" school.  Neanderthals predate "anatomically modern"
>humans, and none have ever been found in Africa.  Thus, if we are descended
>from Neanderthals, then development eveloution was not limited to a single
>continent.

	There a few flaws here. The 'out of Africa' theories that I'm familiar
with state that the original hominids evolved in Africa, then spread to
other continents.

	It is fairly apparant the human development happened on many
continents, it simply started in Africa and went a ways there first.

>This I disagree with.  Supposedly the Ns were a "cold weather adaptation"
>of the human form.  Their faces were shaped differently than those of any
>modern human population, and supposedly their hands were better suited
for using
>cruder tools without handles.  I suppose though, that if any had survived

	I've seen a clay reconstruction (from a skeleton) of a Neanderthal.
Looked a bit like a native Indian to me. Not really that different. The
jaw protruded a bit more, there was a slight noticible difference in the
forehead, and a 'Roman' nose.
	I've heard some good evidence that the Neanderthals may have been more
intelligent than Cro-Magnon, or present day man. At the very least, they
were conscious and aware cultured beings (evidenced by burial and
symbolic magic)
	I don't know about the hand bit, maybe.

-Me
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: bible
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:43:43 GMT

I have to agree with the metion of "the good samaritin"ect.
Thou I must metion somthing of importince concerning the Bible. It has been
trasnnslated  and retranslated frequently over the cenurys often times into
a form that beter suted the ofishals of the time as well as the politics.
this maybe were certen refrincis to shuning non-belevers comes from. Also
in it begining christeanity was a lot like wicca-christens worshiped in filds
and caves rather then in churchis in fact the new testament does say that it
is beter to worship anyplace uther then a church. The first christins 
incuriged indevidualism exspeshaly whin translating what is stated in the
bible-there were almost as miny difrint translations then as there were 
christion- non of which insited that theres was the only way. That didnt
happen untill prests came along-hmmm

ELF-KIN	were you there is one of my faverite hymse
		'song is prayer * 10'
		I am a spiritualist and cathlic
ps. spiritualism didnt start to be removed untill after prest showed up
ithere.	ITS A CONSPERICY I TELL YOU!
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Cult of Thor?
Summary: I can't resist (did I try?)
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:23:38 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <702438182.F00001@mintir.fidonet.org>, Ayla@f155.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Ayla) writes:
# I'm sorry to interupt, but has anybody ever heard my Thor joke?
# Thor used to like to come down to earth and have sex with mortal women.  But
# once when he was screwing this woman, he felt really guilty and said, "Honey I
# have to tell you something, I'm really Thor."
# And she said:
# "Tho am I honey but it wath great!"
# (Thay it aloud to get the full impact.)
#     Namathte'  (I mean Namaste')
#        Ayla

The version I know is that Thor had to get somewhere fast, and leapt onto
a horse, and said "giddyap, I am *Thor*", and the horse turned around and
said, "Of course you're thore, you forgot you're thaddle, thilly."

It's all my ex's fault. She told me it....(I cry, ducking thrown tomatoes)

mark
/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan Psychologist Needed
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:08:18 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Ernest Borgnine Plastic Surgery Clinic

In article <krikket.03ra@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us
(Doug Krick) writes:
>A user on my system is in DESPERATE need of a Pagan Psychitrist.  S/he is on
>the verge of suicide.  The problem is based on a relationship problem.  S/He
>does not want to go to a regular psychitrist because s/he and his/her lover
>share a psychic bond that most psychs would consider impossible, therefore the
>person in question must have a few bolts loose...

Any reputable psychotherapist would respect such a belief and attempt
to work with it, even if privately considering it mistaken.  Your fear
appears to derive from media stereotypes about evil proselytizing
atheistic psychiatrists, rather than from any realistic understanding
and expectation about the behavior of psychotherapists in the real
world.  In other words, your "friend" may need a therapist, but he or
she hardly needs one of a particular religion.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Communications and User Interface Engineer
{apple!sun}!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"As I was walking among the fires of Hell, delighted with the enjoyments of
 Genius; which to Angels look like torment and insanity.  I collected some of
 their Proverbs..." - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:39:30 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <loren.29@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Apr1.184049.28268@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:
>>Roman history from the assassination of the Gracchi down to
>>Octavian's consolidation of power was a steadily intensifying
>>and increasingly brutal civil war with short pauses to deal
>>with rebellious allies, slaves or provinces.
>
>Kind of like La Cosa Nostra, eh?

No, it's not "kind of like La Cosa Nostra" any more than the Nazis were.
The Mafia started out as an IRA-type of pact between Sicilian farmers
who were getting screwed by the landlord types.

Bad dagos aren't Mafia any more than bad things done by ancient Irishmen
make them ancient IRA.  Sorry to snap so hard, but I am Italian-American
and grew up near Philadelphia.  I got shit on so badly when I was a kid
and young adult there for being the neighborhood/school dago that I am
VERY sensitive to this.  Please understand that when you make a
blithe statement like this, you are pressing on a nerve for a lot of
people.  We are not all criminals, and we do not all carry knives.  Some
of us are even honest.

Janis Maria Carmell Costanzi Cortese
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (Doug Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Name this song, please.
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:25:26 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <702833353.0@kcufgat.fidonet.org>,
Mary.Huston@f76.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Huston) writes:

>I would be very interested in hearing the complimentary God song.  I have a
>God chant to go with the Goddess chant if that is what you were talking
>about.

From your message, I'm going to assume you are refering to the "Isis Astarte
Diana..." chant.  So far the only other lines that I've heard fit to that are
the "We call come from the Goddess/And to her we shall return/Like a drop of
rain/Flowing to the ocean".  (Obviously it takes a few repitions of "Isis
Astarte ..." to match the words up.)

Mind posting the "God Chant"?

Krikket  --  a.k.a. Doug Krick  --  krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us   

Supercalifragilisticsadomasochisim   !   Disclaimers?  We don't need no
   -- Need I say anything else?      !   stinkin' discalimers!
From: 911414p@ace.acadiau.ca (PIOTR CEZARY  PROSZYNSKI)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Name this song, please.
Keywords: help needed
Date: 5 Apr 92 22:35:29 GMT
Organization: Acadia University


  
 Hello out there, fellow netters!

  Can somebody help me ?

 A few months ago I was taping a CBC (Canadian)
radio-show; it so happened that I didn't listen to the tape for a while, 
but when I did I discovered that I accidentaly (or not) recorded an 
incredible pagan song, the best I have heard in a long time....

  Unfortunately the song was maimed: the beginning was cut off,
static - overwhelming; I _had_ to track down a good copy....but - I didn't 
have it's title, the name of the performer or the slightest idea as to where 
to look for it!

  If you know any of the above - help.If you have the words - post them.

  Here's what I can tell you:
the song is sung by a man backed by a number of females; the melody is 
simple, so's the orchestration; the lyrics are about Mother Goddess-worship
and/or witchcraft. One stanza (the one clearest through the static) runs 
more or less like this:

 CHORUS: Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna

   -There were those who came to power through domination
    and they were [bonded?] in their worship of a dead man on a cross
    They sought control of the common people
    by the [.. ?.. ] alligance to the Church of Rome

    And the pope declared the Inquisition
    it was a war against women whose power they feared
    In this Holocaust against [ ....... ?]
    9 million European women died
    
    And the tale is told of those who by the hundreds
    holding together chose their deaths in the sea
    While chanting the praises of the Mother Goddess
    A refusal [....?....] dying to be free.
     
Anyway, if you know the song all this should be more than enough to 
recognize it; and if you do recognize it, please please please mail me or 
post the info in this group.

                      Thank you in advance - PCP
                      ( 911414p@ace.acadiau.ca)
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 14 Apr 1992 01:01:57 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: warfare and women

what gunnora said!  women, taken as a species, are NOT more
peace-loving than men...  i know *I* would kill if i or my
daughter, or others i care for, were threatened!  MANY of the
ancient fertility goddesses were also war-goddesses.  look
at Anath, for intance!  she was known for dancing in the knee-
deep corpses for her enemies...  or Durga, who is a Hindu fertility
goddess, often worshipped in the furm of dung, and a war goddess
who is known for the slaying of demons.  Aphrodite was worshipped
as a war goddess in one greek city that we know of, as well.

since my daughter was born i am ALMOST surprised at how violent
i am capable of becoming...
                                          -ailsa