HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: lifdot & l'chaper (was: Re: Paradise (was Re:
Date: 14 Sep 1992 22:40:50 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


>> > matter how you interpret the word 'bible'.) Without the sacrifice of 
>> > Yeshua we are unable to go back. (See Is. 53, Ps. 40:7-9 & Job 19:25,26 
>> > and forget about the wishful "explanations" of RL.
>
>> That's a statement of Christian faith, not an argument.
>
> Do you include all those Rabbinic views (by Bill Carlson) to this 
> "Christian faith" as well ?

There are no Jewish views requiring man-god sacrifice.  There are
plenty of Christian views which suggest this, which is fine with
me, as long as you call it Christianity.


> "kopher" - "ransom" (R. Alcalay Complete Hebrew-English dictionary)
> Both verbs, "lifdot" and "l'chaper" mean "to atone". "kapparah" is 
> not the only noun form derived from the root kaf-peh-resh. "kapporet"
> means "the Holy of Holies" and "kopher" means "atheist" as well. 

Please get your words straight.  First you present
"ka'aru" (pierced) when it's actually "ka'ari" (like a lion)
in Psalm 22, ending with a yod.  Same with the mistranslation
of "almah" as "virgin."

A term for ransom is:     The term for heretic/atheist is:
(also 'to ransom')
 __   __ .___                      __   __ ._ ___ 
   | |_ |  . |                       | |_ | |  . |
   | ___| ___|                       | ___| | ___|
     . .                                ..
      .

The infinitive 'to atone' is:      Terms for atonement include
 __   __  ___                    __  __   __  ___     __   _  __  ___  
   | |_ |  . |                     |   | |_.|  . |      | .| |_.|  . |
   | ___| ___|                   | |   | ___| ___|      |  | ___| ___|
     ..    .                          T    T   -    /               .
                  
The expression in Numbers 31:50 and Leviticus 17:11 is
 __   __  ___  |_ 
   | |_ |    |   |
   | ___| ___|  / 
      ..   _    :  

which means "to atone," not "to ransom."  

Therefore, Numbers 31:50 is describing an atonement, without blood.

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Date: 15 Sep 1992 08:37:40 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bill Carlson writes:

>   the 8th day, but they didn't.  Now I ask you, if ones lack of regard
>   of the Mitzvah, causes them to not be circumcised until they are an
>   adult, - yet this is accepted by HaShem; should ones Jewish parents
>   preforming a medical circumcision, (even though not a halachic
>   standard one), on their Jewish baby, NOT be regarded as having
>   fullfilled the basic Torah Command of Brit-Millah - in that they
>   did do a circumcision?  Or is it regarded.  Again, please show any
>   halachah that requires a Jewish male to be circumcised again, if he
>   was already circumcised as an infant!

Wrong, Bill.  The doctor performed the circumcision, not the parents.
Thus, the parents didn't circumcise the baby.

I already cited for you the section of _Yoreh Deah_, Hilchos Milah,
siman reish samech beis, particularly the Turey Zahav on the left.

Please look it up and stop whining.

Rob
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Joseph Good
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:23:14 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I was watching TBN a few days ago and they had Joseph Good on. Several
people called in wanting to know if Josheph believed in the deity of Christ.
JG said that he did believe that Christ was divine.

Link Hudson.
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:47:39 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#3201

>Subject: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
>From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
>Date: 1 Sep 92 03:18:05 GMT

You replied to RL:

>So..., once again I repeat: If others don't have that big of a problem
>with us, why do you?  Heck, you'd probally find that you agree with us
>on several points, -other points- no.  But it doesn't see correct, nor
>circumspect, for you to just flat out reject us because we believe that
>we know who the Messiah is.

But Bill, it *is* OK for a Jew to believe he knows who the Messiah is ...
as long as it isn't Yeshua!

-- BT

"You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."  -- Henry Ford
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Genesis
Date: 13 Sep 1992 11:45:21 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

mannk@fshvmfk1.VNET.IBM.COM writes:

> Rob (Strom or Levene) care to provide a non-MJ, Jewish viewpoint?
 [...]
> on interpreting Genesis,

Both literal and non-literal explanations are OK among Jews,
as long as one acknowledges that G-d created the world.

R
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: General
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:28:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


           -=> Quoting Devorah Ginat to Bill Carlson <=-
 DG> Hoo, boy.  I see what you mean, sort of.  You know, this is not
 DG> really what I thought this BBS would be like.  Perhaps I'm on the
 DG> wrong net.  I did read some messages, and....
 DG> Have you heard the saying, "Two Jews, three opinions"?  I think that
 DG> perhaps the latter number is an understatement.
    No problem, glad you made it on ok.  Any time you'd like to jump
    in, feel free.  This particular net goes world wide with readership
    all the way from Messianic, to Rabbinic, and various and sundry
    type of Christians, agnostic, etc....
Shalom

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 9 Sep 92 11:39:05

In article <9209071532.AA08323@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> Apparently, a comment of mine was unclear...

> >>    Don't know how you figure it.  The Messiah is a wholly Jewish
> >> concept.
> > Yup.
> >>  Yeshua was a Jewish man
> > If he existed, yes he was.

> Replace with "If you contend that his existence was that of
> the messiah as understood as a *Jewish* concept, then Jesus would
> have to be fully human, not the man-god Christianity portrays."

> R

> --
> Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
>   "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM

A funny thing...  I didn't see anything unclear in your comment. You agree 
that the Messiah is a wholly Jewish concept, and then you agree that Yeshua
was a Jew. No reference that Yeshua would have been the Messiah. Then you
"make you statement more clear" by implying that ACCORDING TO THE TENETS
OF JUDAISM Yeshua is not the Messiah. Need I say more ?

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 13 Sep 1992 12:52:18 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I said:

RAL> You have never proved that rejection of Jesus was the cause rather
RAL> than effect of the principles of Judaism.

Bil Carlson wrote:
>    I think you are reading more into what I said than I did.  I do not
>    conclude that the "starting" principles of Judaism were to reject
>    Y'shua.  That would be silly, as the starting premises of Judiasm
>    are the Tanakh, and earlier Rabbinic lit. that goes back before
>    even Y'shua's time {Hillel and Shammai}.

Good.  Would Bruce and Laura care to second Bill's statement?

[...]
>         But what I DO maintain, is that an "auto-rejection" has come
>    into "modern" Rabbinic Judaism, due mostly to the terrible deeds
>    done to our people through the centuries by false-Christians.

It only looks like an auto-rejection because many Jews live
among Christians.

> ...  How
>    can I maintain this?  Besides the examples I already gave - one
>    can practice forms of buddaism; hold a belief in reincarnation;
>    be agnostic; or even an atheist -all the while going to some Reform
>    Temple coffee-club; - BUT they are still considered Jewish enough
>    that a Conservative or even an Orthodox Rabbi would marry them to
>    another Jew!  Will they do this for a Messainic Jew, even though
>    they are Torah Observant?  Not at all!

Where did you get the idea that Orthodox rabbis would marry
Jews who practice Buddhism with other Jews?  How many have you
asked, or how many of these marriages have you heard about?


> > RAL> What is the "MJCN comp.net" and how may one access it?
>     It is the Messianic Jewish Computer Network.  It is international.
>     What city are you in?

It would be easier if you re-posted the BBS list, in case those
in other cities would like to tune in.

R


Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:24:00

In article <9209092144.AA24172@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Sep9184512@polaris.utu.fi> Laura Manninen writes:
> > BTW I'll reply to that long one of yours later. And I'm still 
> > waiting for a reply to that long one of mine, or didn't you get it ?

> I have no idea which one you're talking about; send it to me via e-mail.

Dunno. BTW I'm also waiting for a reply for "Re: My Heritage", but I can
consider a non-reply as a reply as well.

> >> Other religions believe differently.
> >
> > Religions are just human attempts to reach God, whereas the true relation-
> > ship with God is no religion. C'mon join us !

> How do you define religion?

> I propose: "a common identity based upon shared faith tenets
> concerning the supernatural."

Yes, I agree. Just that MJism/Christianity differs in that it is a
real relationship with God, not just some aristhotelian attempts to 
define the supernatural. BTW (this is for TA as well), the word 
translated as 'religion' in English for James 1:26,27 is 'godfearfulness' 
in Swedish xlat. (thanks Tord) and 'the service to God' in Finnish xlat. 

> R

- Laura
--
Loving the truth is loving God.
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds
Date: 6 Sep 1992 08:13:02 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Rob Strom clarifies:

> not go so far as to call it a death threat.  They told him
> at age 5 (together with his sister, who was 3-1/2), that he would
> burn in hell *after* death if he didn't believe in Jesus.  They
> also told him that the reason he hurt himself in the water was
> that he didn't believe.  This, while he was still just
> learning to swim, made him afraid that he might drown
> through lack of faith.

In light of Rob's post, I retract use of the term "death threat" to
describe what happened to his son.  The unadorned word "threat" is
sufficient to describe this type of "witnessing" to a five-year-old.

R

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:45:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


             -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 13 Sep 92 17:52:18 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209131751.AA12854@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 
 RAL> Good.  Would Bruce and Laura care to second Bill's statement?
     Before you go to far.  While your assertion was correct as far as
     I took it, the bulk of Rabbinic writings, discounting a few
     Midrashim, Targumim, and early Mishniac lit.; were AFTER Y'shua,
     so the ideas that Bruce and Laura are presenting, do have weight
     if one recognises that fact.
 
 RAL> It only looks like an auto-rejection because many Jews live
 RAL> among Christians.
     Now?  What about tractate "Toldot Yeshu".  It obviously was
     written with an ax to grind.  What about the adoption of the
     Kararim "Faith Strengthened".  Illustrates the point I'd think.
     What other "religion" devotes a "tractate" of their 'sacred'
     Lit. to a "Religious-Leader" whom they oppose?

 RAL> Where did you get the idea that Orthodox rabbis would marry
 RAL> Jews who practice Buddhism with other Jews?  How many have you
 RAL> asked, or how many of these marriages have you heard about?
     Because if someone goes to a shule, their personal beliefs are
     seldom questioned.  Even two agnostic/athiest Jewish people can
     be married by a Rabbi.  Can two Messianic's?  -No!  What about
     the adoption of the Kararim "Faith strengthened"?

 RAL> It would be easier if you re-posted the BBS list, in case those
 RAL> in other cities would like to tune in.
    Well, that would be better handled by Harvey since he is the main
    one doing that.  We are international, but not to the extent of
    this user group.  What state are you in then, - just curious.

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210        
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:45:12

In article <9209091335.AA19089@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> >> Replace with "If you contend that his existence was that of
> >> the messiah as understood as a *Jewish* concept, then Jesus would
> >> have to be fully human, not the man-god Christianity portrays."

> > A funny thing...  I didn't see anything unclear in your comment.

> I didn't intend to cast doubt on whether or not Jesus existed, only 
> the manner of his existence.  Some thought I was doing the former.

OK.

> >  You agree 
> > that the Messiah is a wholly Jewish concept, and then you agree that Yeshua
> > was a Jew. No reference that Yeshua would have been the Messiah. Then you
> > "make you statement more clear" by implying that ACCORDING TO THE TENETS
> > OF JUDAISM Yeshua is not the Messiah. Need I say more ?

> Yes, because I have no idea what your point is.

I left out one line: (according to the tenets of Judaism (RJ) Yeshua is
not the Messiah), OTHERWISE HE IS.

> Mine was that the statements "<Ploni> was a man" and "<Ploni> was God" are
> mutually exclusive, irrespective of choice <Ploni>, according to Judaism.

Here's the part you deleted from this reply:
>>    Don't know how you figure it.  The Messiah is a wholly Jewish
>> concept.
> Yup.
>>  Yeshua was a Jewish man
> If he existed, yes he was.

The point is that I don't understand why you needed to add that correction
in the first place, unless you believe Yeshua really is the Messiah.
BTW I'll reply to that long one of yours later. And I'm still 
waiting for a reply to that long one of mine, or didn't you get it ?

> Other religions believe differently.

Religions are just human attempts to reach God, whereas the true relation-
ship with God is no religion. C'mon join us !
 
> Rob

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Rob's Law
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:50:50 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <9209081831.AA14470@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>
>Temple sacrifices continued for decades after Jesus' death.

True.  But Jesus predicted their end decades before.

>The Romans destroyed the Temple and sent the Jews into exile.  Soon
>after, Paul formed a popular religion based on the messianic
>aspirations attributed to Jesus, whom the Romans and their
>quisling Sadducee regime had considered dangerously subversive.

False.  The apostle Paul died in Rome around AD65-66 under the persecution
of Nero.  The Christian faith was well-established prior to AD70, in spite
of the severe presecution by Jews and Romans.  After AD70 the non-messianic
Jews excommunicated the Christians for their faith in Messiah.  Judaism
declined while the new covenant faith of Christianity flourished.  The
rest, as they say, is history.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby book
Date: 6 Sep 1992 08:09:39 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


In article <LJMORLY.92Aug27131414@polaris.utu.fi>
>> 1.  I'm not telling anyone to go out an buy a book.  You can borrow
>>     Hyam Maccoby's books from your local free public library or
>>     university library.
>
> I guess that is the situation in America. Never mind...

OK.

>> TA> But we call ourselves Christians so as not to be religiously confused
>> TA> with Jews who have rejected Messiah Jesus.  This is both biblically
>> TA> and practically correct.
>
>> It seems like "religious confusion" is the bread and butter of folks
>> like Harvey Smith who post statements such as "we believe that
>> Biblical Judaism is in fact New Covenant, which is called Christianity"
>
> Then how would you say it ? (I mean the citation.)

My suggestion is to call themselves "Messianics," list
themselves under "Churches - Messianic" and to cease and
desist from calling their practices Judaism.

> Do you believe that 
> God is one ? 

Yes.

> Or is it just a question of "religions"

Yes.

> i.e. that all of them
> a re correct ways to serve Hashem ?

No.

R
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Tracing ones Jewishness...
Date: 4 Sep 92 04:38:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

The question comes up of..., how does a Jew know they are Jewish?
     Anyway, brief, (cause it's late and I'm tired :-)
     1. I think there were partial records that were kept in Germany
     before WWII, that dated back to even Temple times that were
     burned by the nazi's; but I can't remember where I heard this.
     2. Certain families trace there family trees back centuries, to
     the earliest times, these are those who have kept their own
     records.  For example, there is one Hassidic family that traces
     their records back to the times of David.
     3. A Cohen, while not strictly being only from the last name, as
     there are those with Cohen as a last name who aren't, and those
     who don't have Cohen as a last name who are, -according to
     Halachah determined since the destruction of the Temple, were only
     considered a Cohen if their entire family was know to be Cohanim
     as far back as the community could remember.  I won't go into
     the logic of why this works, (it should be obvious).
     4. The Sefardi Jews hardly ever intermarried, and remain very
     close to the way, (in several ways), they were when they left
     Israel, as for centuries in the communities they were in, they
     were isolated from the populations they resided in.
     5. This is true as well for the Ashkenazim, however, they
     were raped during certain times throughout the centuries, which
     caused some, but not that much, of a mixture with the peoples
     they lived amongst.  Intermarriage has never really been a
     problem in Jewish communities till the last hundred or so years,
     especially the last half of this century in America.
     6. Alot of other reasons besides these... yawn, good-night.

... 012 NEXT WEEK: How are the Irish really sure they're Irish? 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:44:00 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#3223

>Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
>Date: 3 Sep 1992 23:31:40 -0500

>Y'know, it would simplify matters if you just came out and said
>"According to Christianity, atonement requires blood sacrifice."  Then
>I'd have no quarrel with you.  But if people try to tell me that
>as a Jew, I need blood sacrifices, I can't let that error go unchallenged.

Y'know, it would simplify matters if you just came out and said
"According to the tradition of the rabbis, atonement does not require
blood sacrifice."  Then I'd have no quarrel with you.  But if people try
to tell me that a Jew (or anyone else) does not need a blood sacrifice,
I can't let that error go unchallenged.

>[...] Bill Carlson repeats the verse:
> 
>> > and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the
>> > altar; IT IS THE BLOOD THAT MAKES ATONEMENT FOR ONE'S LIFE.
> 
>Well, what's Numbers 31:50, chopped liver?   It's right there in
>black and white, atonement for their lives without blood.

No, Trumble and Corr are chopped liver.  Well, maybe they're more like
balogna; but Rush Limbaugh likes them anyway.	;-}

BC>> Maybe that's why them Chassidic Jews wave those chickens over their
BC>> heads and kill them before Yom Kippur, you figure? :-)

>The same effect is achieved by waving charity in a sock over
>one's head.

I agree with that.

The same effect is also achieved by repeating rote prayers and acts of
to charity.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany