From: davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane)
Newsgroups: alt.bbs
Subject: Re: BBS Standards Committ
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:49:33 GMT
Organization: Aegis Society, Kyoto Japan

cblaise@moose.uvm.edu.UUCP (Chris Blaise) writes:

>From article <2477@aegis.or.jp>, by davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane):
>> Thats funny because I have a lot of teachers, educators and students
>> and while they aren't clamoring for WordPerfect/Nethack/etc. (which,
>> after all, was only used an example of the various of different
>> things you can do with a true multi-line/multi-user/multi-tasking
>> system) and they are sure hot to be able to get all their mail and
>> news without having to negotiate menus. 

>	*chuckle*  Depends on what suits you!  I find negotiating
>menus the *easiest* way to work with BBSes.  However, there are programs
>that I could use on TBBS (or heck, make my own) that would give it the
>"shell" feel of unix.  The trouble is that most of our callers barely have
>a clue of what DOS is, let alone Unix.  I don't see where requiring them
>to remember "vn -n Vermont-EdNet.Educator.Student" is really helping
>to accomplish what the main mission of the system is - that is to get
>teachers and educators experienced with telecommunications.

I'm going to give up as you seem to be so set in your ways that you
aren't able to hear anything else. 

While *you* may find menus the easiest way to naviagate BBSs (as if
BBSs were the only way to telcommunicate), under the current set up
on Aegis all people need to do is be able to log on and issue two
commands:

   getmail
   getnews

Of course this is after there account has been configured. Some of them
can do that themselves, but many just send the sysadmin (me) feedback
with 'feedback' and I configure their account for them. 

>>>	Like I also said, these are the kind of people using our Vermont Ed-Net
>>>system.  The system is geared for beginners and people to teach those beginners
>>>how to use telecommunications and I feel it does a very good job.  
>> 
>> I see. Well, you might think about saying that instead of "It simply
>> doesn't interest me.  You might as well be telling..."

>	But that's how I feel!  *grin*  There is no amount of convincing
>that can be done on my to make me feel that a change from TBBS to a Unix
>system would be better for me to run and for my users to use, than I
>could convince YOU and others otherwise about TBBS over Unix.

As before, you have missed the point: you have to chose, I don't.
If people asked for TBBS I would set it up for them. 

FYI, I and a few other people here have access to a TBBS host and
while undoubtedly it's set up different than yours, the menus aren't
considered helpful but hindrance. 

...

>	I hear you, and if I were running a BBS full time, I *might*
>and *consider* the above carefully.  However there are a few things
>that I'm basin my current judgements on.  Some that I've explicitly said
>before and others that I may have alluded to but maybe have not spelled
>out in so many words:

> 1) I'm a student.  I have very little time to maintain a unix machine to
>    get it to do what *I* would want it to do.  Of course I believe I
>    could get something hatched out of exiting unix BBSes that would
>    look like TBBS.  But as a full time student, putting down 21 hours
>    of work a week this semester, I simply don't have the time.

I see. What has this to do with how quick and convenient it is for the
people using your host?

> 2) I'm at a university.  We have 2 VMS systems and 3 unix machines
>    at the division I work at.  At the college of engineering and math, there's
>    another 6-7 unix machines.  Do we really need to offer YAUM (Yet Another
>    Unix Machine)?

Again, what has this to do with the people logging onto your system?
Do they have access to the 2 VMS and 3 unix machines? 

> 3) The people this BBS targets are NOT computer literate.  We're trying to
>    get them to USE telecommunications.  These people have enough trouble
>    understanding the concepts of uploading and downloading, let alone
>    the various intricies of unix.    

Exactly. Me too. From what I can tell, you have assumed that a menu-drive
approach is the best way to accomplish this. I don't.

Instead, I am of the opinion that for just those kinds of people,
it's easier to log on, and issue one or two commands that do what
they want.  If they can't remember them, I suggest they put them on
a Post-It sticker near where they work. After a week or so they
don't need them. 

In sum, menus are not a necessity, only a convenience. And for some
people not so convenient as all that. For others they are very
convenient. By having a multi-line mulit-tasking system you can
keep everybody happy as each person's account can be configured as
they wish it.

> 4) My project is a *multi line BBS*, not a *multi line OS*.  It seems to 
> me that you and Larry are trying to turn this into an OS war, which 
> I'm not trying to continue.  Do I think that TBBS can compete with 
> unix?  Of course not.  Do I think it can compare with most of the 
> BBS packages I see on it?  Sure I do.  It has it's points as well as 
> those packages have their own.  The point is, lets stick to the 
> BBS debates and not the OS debates. 

BBSs aren't the only way to provide telecommunication services just
like DOS isn't the only single-user/tasking OS and UNIX isn't the
only multi-user/tasking OS.  

As I said before, the fact that we are talking about UNIX and DOS
isn't very important. And going further, even multi-user/tasking
isn't very imporant. What I think *is* important is if you what kind
of service you can offer people, especialy people who aren't up to
speed on all the tricks of then trade when it comes to telecommunciation. 

If you feel that the multi-line (but not multi-tasking) BBS is the
best way to go about this, then do so. But please don't confuse what
you have time for with what makes it convenient for others. 

Dave

--
Dave McLane 
JUNET: davidg@aegis.or.jp (ONLY within Japan: post otherwise)
Nagaokakyoshi, Kyoto Japan Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087