From: amrk@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Andrew Markiel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: 3rd space planet taking
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:30:18 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <BsvpwI.FIK@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.142800.26957@dsd.es.com> rjones@dsd.es.com writes:
>>It's trivial to pull off.  Scum a kill, run into your space, repair, get a
>>single escort to stop the robots, go the wrong way out of your home space
>>(you might encounter a single SC bomber), and bomb then take the nearest
>>enemy agri.  Let your escort kill the Hoser.  If you need to, go ferry
>>armies from your space or your SB until the agri pops...  
>>
>>Any half-clue can do this.  
>
>This might be the case, but would be certainly less easy if someone from the
>opposing team was to try and defend against it.  Taking homeworld agri's is a
>pretty easy thing to do when no one defends against it.

I think you aren't seeing Ray's point. Look, suppose the Feds are fighting the
Roms. The Feds are a little better, so they start winning. Once they start
winning, they have *two* advantages: they're a little better, and they also
have a good bit more armies. But something interesting happens...as the Roms
compact into their core, it becomes easier to defend their remaining worlds, so
the Roms gain an advantage that cancels *one* of the Feds advantages. The Feds
are still in better shape, but it's not a slaughter.

But now, suppose the Feds get the roms down to their core, and then go off to
take the robot races. Now, the Roms lose their defensive bonus for being close
to their planets...they have nothing to fight the double Fed advantage of being
slightly better, and having a lot more armies. (OK, I'll grant that Kli space
would be closer to the roms than the feds, but the difference is small in that
a fed ship can repair before a dead rom can get back to fight again).

The only benifit the Roms can get is the defensive robot...but that's nothing.
The guardian robot is worse than almost anyone who plays, as he has poor
tactics and ablsoutely no concept of strategic objectives.
Adding one poor player cannot make up for the loss of the defensive advantage
of being near your home core. So, instead of having an interesting battle over
the Rom core, the Feds easily and boringly romp through the robot worlds and
win.
>
>I interpreted Tom's point as being that people who would consider flanking the
>enemy through nuetral space are somehow already cheating.  My point is that
>they aren't, just using a different way to skin the cat.  I would agree that a
>tactic which allows a side to get an easy win because there are no effective
>defenses should be banned (game balance and all).  However, this tactic seems
>not to be unbalancing, simply because if it was, it'd happen a lot.  It seems
>to be used only as a way of breaking an LPS stalemate w/o resorting to a timer.
>Any server gods out there with stats on what percentage of wins come from 3rd
>space scumming?  I'll bet it ain't much.
>
>Of course, if this were to become a tactic on the scale of say, ogging, then it
>most certainly should be banned, as it would unbalance the game.  But somehow I
>don't think that will happen.
>
>	Entropy
Why doesn't this happen more often? Because most players are playing, not
to win, but to have a fun and interesting game. Taking the robot races is
boring for both sides...and the victory is empty in that there was no need for
the wining team to use great strategy, or coordination, because once the
winning team gets significantly more planets their advantage is so great that
it's almost impossible for the defenders to resist. Certainly, if a team were
only playing to win, then they could do this all the time and rack up plenty
of genocides. Who cares? Where's the fun? The interest? The skill? The daring
take of the last planet under 3 BB's who your teammates just ran out of fuel?

That's why I don't like third space planet taking. One team "wins" (whee) but
anyone interested in playing a fun and exciting game loses.
The point where I differ with Mojo is that I agree that there are (rare) cases
where standard games become so stagnated that anyone looking for a fun and
exciting game still loses. I claim that in these cases the timer is a better
solution than taking third race planets.

-Grey Elf

P.S. Sorry for the length...just trying to make my point clear.