HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markk@sagredo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Alignments
Date: 2 Sep 1992 14:33:23 GMT
Organization: SunSoft South
NNTP-Posting-Host: sagredo.west.sun.com

(Geez ... I haven't been involved in this argument in years)

Good and Evil

	Relatively hard line GMs have tended to say that a good alignment
	generally precludes willfully evil acts.  A good person might be
	forced into committing an evil act, but it would have to be for
	better reasons than "expedience".

	This situation is not symmetric, since an evil person could easily 
	commit a good act in order to achieve an evil end.

	The hard one here is neutrality.  Some GMs say that a committing
	evil acts makes you evil.  Others say that neutrals only need to
	exhibit no great overall tendency towards good or evil.

Lawfulness and chaos

	There is a continuum of lawfulness.  Starving to death in a room
	full of carrots is certainly one extreme - but all lawful people
	are not necessarily "pedal-to-the-metal" lawful.  In the example
	you posed (secrecy about the commission of a crime) there are
	two codes in conflict, and different people can honorably resolve
	this conflict in different ways.

	I don't see why turning someone in for a reward is chaotic, but
	turning them in for justice is neutral.  I even have room for
	a lawful person to turn you in.

	I tended to treat lawfulness as a combination of personal 
	responsibility and expectations of responsibility in others.
	In this context, chaoticness is a lack of personal responsibility.

	A chaotic person may be able to act in a predictable way, but
	they do so at their pleasure.  Only a pathologically chaotic
	person would be limited to chaotic behavior.  A lawful person is 
	more predictable because they are compelled to be so.
	
Neutrality

	This can be treated as hard-core middle (perfectly ballanced)

	This can be treated as everything that is not extreme

I tend to look at general and overall behavior, and put characters into
an alignment because of a "lifetime of achievement".  Any character is
probably capable of any act in a particular occasion.  It is only in
the trends that alignment surfaces.
From: moursund@hpcvnb.CV.HP.COM (David_Moursund)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 11:27:24 PDT
Subject: Re: SR: CAW Co. Fall Catolog
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, Oregon
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc

>/ hpcvnb:rec.games.frp.misc / v076jy2p@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Cosmo Of The Cosmos) /  5:30 pm  Aug 25, 1992 /

>Oh, by the way.  CAW Co. is stationed in Kent, Tacoma.  Just ask around,
>everybody knows where my HQ is, ever since I revitalized the local economy.
>And tell me what you buy, so I can write down how much my charater makes.


Duhhh, I bought 320K nuyen worth of equipment from your company, but
it was defective, and cost the lives of well over 100 good people,
as well as the loss of millions of nuyen in property damages.

I was considering taking you to court, but decided to have you
assassinated instead.  Please be sure to write down that your character
has been assassinated.  And your factory is now a smoking crater.

dm
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Improvisation!
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:03:29 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug22.044328.14783@tronsbox.xei.com>, dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) writes:

>	Agatha Christie's "mysteries" suck, as far as the type of fair-play
>mystery we're talking about here goes.  The "solutions" always revolve
>around the protagonist having access to some bit of information the reader
>never got.

Bully for you.

>	This is "only" a hobby for me, too.  That means it is _more_ important
>than a profession.  I don't enjoy shoddy craftsmanship.

Neither_do_I, Mr._Holier_Than_Thou.

>	Yes.  GM's have rights too.  The players have the right to contribute
>to the campaign _through their characters_.  That's it.

My dear boy, through their characters is the only way I let it happen.  As you
would understand if you would unbend for ten minutes and really _try_ to
understand what I and others are telling you.

>|a GameMaster is for, you are there to present one hell of an adventure.  If
>|that adventure is made better or more complete by acknowledging an interpreta-
>|tion from one of the players, then "reality" quietly and retroactively

>	In other words, let them win all the time.  That sucks.

Dennis, keep a civil tongue in you mouth or so help me I'll killfile your ass.
And if you don't understand something, say so, don't make wild and idiotic
statements in blatant contradiction with everything I've said.  If you want
to try to understand the style, fine, I'll keep trying to help.  If all you
want to do is make me kowtow to your style, drop dead.  I've tried it, and
improv works better for me.  End of thread.

I've deleted the rest of your idiotic ranting that followed from this wrong
premise.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
How about we all do something reasonable?  I bet that'll confuse 'em!
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Minotaur's question about lowlight eyes
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: minotaur, shadowrun
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 16:20:17 GMT


I don't know about any of the other stuff, but it seems to me that just
as a lot of heat (fire) blinds thermographic vision, a lot of light
should similarly blind low-light vision (if you shine it into their 
face, that is...).  Perhaps an ultrasonic wave generator could screw 
up ultrasonic vision pretty good.  My father has an ultrasonic cleaner
that he uses on clocks...perhaps if the adventure were set in a place
that used a lot of those...?

---Chris Meadows
From: jdugger@envy.Reed.Edu (Jay Dugger)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Wheat Vamp & Amber
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:14:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug31.151449.8155
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Aug31.121234.268@dct.ac.uk> aesba3kgfm@dct.ac.uk writes:

(stuff deleted)

> 	What exactly have everyone done in Vampire and amber and what
> 	happened???  Have you lost a lot of vampire characters due to
> 	sunlight, hunters, or just stupidity on behalf of the characters??
> 	In amber.....has anyone lost a character...or had one really badly
> 	hurt??
>         Have you had any really great characters???in either rpg!!!!!!

	In Vampire, I'd a character who nearly died at the hands of a very
effective vampire hunter.  This monkey had True Faith and a phosphorus  
sprayer, a most lethal combination.  He attacked our party of Tremere by  
brandishing his crucifix, scaring the bejeezus out of us, and then running  
me down on a motorcycle.  Once he caught me, he sprayed me with WP.  This  
unconditionally sucked.  Through team play, we were able to defeat him.   
Unfortuantely, the experience drove two members of the party insane: one  
regressed to a twelve-year-old's mentality, and the other (myself) became
incurably paranoid.

	I ran an Amber campaign over the summer.  In it, there was one  
death and one near-death.  Blaine, Benedict's grandson, attempted to seize  
the Jewel of Judgement from Constantine, Martin's son.  Both of them were
standing on the Pattern in Rebma at the time.  Llewella's guards shot  
Blaine on the spot.  This knocked him off the Pattern and killed him.  The  
near-death happened to Gregory, Bleys's son, while he was in Arden.  Juli-
an was sealing off the forest when Gregory and Misha (Martin's bastard  
son) had the great misfortune to pass through.  They were attacked by  
hellhounds.  Misha was immobilized by a spell Gregory had cast on him and  
was thus preserved.  Gregory was swamped by hellhounds and had his throat  
torn out.  He fortunately had an artifact that allowed him to regenerate
and recovered from the injury.

Jay Dugger
jdugger@reed.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Improvisation!
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:33:58 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Aug25.011821.58379@cc.usu.edu>, sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
> In article <66771@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt9405b@prism.gatech.EDU 
>  (Lord Goodgulf the Ma-a-a-agical Wizard) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug24.133937.58351@cc.usu.edu> 
>  sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
> 
>>       As far as I can tell, the main attack on improv is "The GM is too much
>> influenced by the players."  I have yet to see any proof of this.
> 
> Not so fast. The player influence argument is only the most recent one. I 
> have watched several good argument go unanswered by improv GMs. Among them:
> 
> 1. Improv GMs cannot create detailed maps, written portions and physical
> props.

	I almost never use physical props, and I don't like making up detailed
maps -- most of the detail goes to waste since players tend not to explore
everywhere, just the places they need to go. I'll canabilize maps from modules
or from my old AD&D days if I need to. I've never said I was a 100% improv
GM either; I do like to have any long speeches or important dialogue written
out.

> 2. Players dislike the feeling that the GM is altering the scenario to 
> make the party successful. The ``spoon feeding'' argument (players have
> posted about this).

	This can happen in a prepared adventure as well!

> 3. Players dislike the feeling that they are bouncing around in a world
> which is unplanned by the GM -- if the GM doesn't know what is going on, 
> who does?

	Improve does NOT mean you don't know what's going on. No one can
effectively run a 100% improv adventure, and neither can one run a 100%
prepared adventure. There has to be some flexibility and some preparedness.
You seem to be arguing against a straw man here.

> 4. Improv GMing is vulnerable to the capriciousness of the GM -- GM has a
> bad day, players have a bad day. With prep, the sceanrio is planned over 
> time, which has a leveling effect on the GM.

	The same thing applies to a prepared adventure.

> 5. Improv GMs are more likely to throw in an insignificant detail on the 
> fly with could come back to haunt them as a logical hole in the game world.
>    
	This is, on the otherhand, a valid point.
From: at731@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Troy L. Nothnagel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: SRUN: Questions from the Minotaur: The Next Generation
Date: 4 Sep 1992 06:11:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: at731@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Troy L. Nothnagel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mstorer@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Mark) says:

>A spell that created a background count shounld be too complicated either...

Quite easy, actually.  Just waltz in twenty or thirty of your favorite
enemies and torture them to death.  Guaranteed background count.

-- 
Troy L. Nothnagel                                                      
at731@cleveland.Freenet.Edu                                            
"And for a gorilla, his English wasn't half bad." - Den of Earth
"No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a!" - Guard, MP&tHG
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman)
Subject: Re: HERO's cheesy $ flow cost...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:26:09 GMT

In article <RATINOX.92Aug20123429@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu> ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu writes:
>Because money has no real correlation to Character Points. Any attempt to
>make such a correlation won't work (I know, I've tried).

A combination of perks and VPPs(Gadget Pools) can do that.  In a standard
level tech game, 25 points would allow one to use/carry any legal weapons or
interesting ideas.  Where people are typically carrying around automatic or
lasers, etc... you probably want to boost it to somewhere around a 40-50 point
gadget pool.  If people carry pocket nukes, well, do whatever works.

Note:  Carrying around legal weapons can be cause for police to get antsy.
It is perfectly legal to carry around a chainsaw.  Do this in a city street
while wearing a mask can get you into trouble.

The important point about money is that while it can do a lot, it does run
into legal restrictions.

Andy Pearlman
From: Elizabeth.Mccoy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Elizabeth Mccoy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Improvisation!
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:43:54 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <0095FBB0.D9A87700@abby.chem.ucla.edu> doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu writes:
>In article <27AUG199208123764@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>At the beginning of the game the DM rolls a six sided die.  The
>>number that comes up is the number of fudges he/she gets.  Every
>>time the DM fudges they turn the die to the next lower number.
>>
>>Now fudges can be done both for and against players, usually in
>>situations that really *WARRANT* a fudge.  Since players see the
>>die being turned they know it is a fudge.
>>
>
>IMHO, letting the players know that you've fudged something is the WORST
>POSSIBLE thing you can do.  It's much worse than simply fudging, and it's also
>much worse than adamantly refusing to fudge die rolls.  Letting the players
>know when you're fudging the die rolls, in my experience, accomplishes nothing
>and simply makes the players less satisfied with whatever the result of their
>actions was.

I'd say that letting the players know during the game when you're
fudging is really, really awful. Having a die and keeping count for self
is fine. I suppose you could roll the die and change it at some point
*after* you'd done the fudge (and a lot of "clean" stuff, too), but
*knowing* right then what had been fudged? Ugh. 

(And, being espoused to a GM, I get to hear about most of his fudges --
*after* the game, when I'm out of character and everything's in
perspective. Then I can see a fudge as necessary for the flow of the
game, can see how I enjoyed the game, probably forgot the incident or
thought it was perfect, etc. During the game, though....)

I'd only want that sort of system if I had a GM I could *not* trust to
play fair otherwise.

(I've said "I" a lot -- do I need the IMO?)
--EM
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: paul@sco.COM (Paul Jackson)
Subject: Re: Improvisation!
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:52:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.214245.58450@cc.usu.edu> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.164635.24443@sco.COM>, paul@sco.COM (Paul Jackson) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug21.134453.58310@cc.usu.edu> 
> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>
>>>You're upholding my argument. You're saying the players sometimes impact
>>>your decisions. Is that their role? No.
>
>> Your argument presupposes that the GM is perfect and makes no mistakes (or,
>> at least none noticed by the players).
>
>Actually it doesn't. My position from the beginning of this thread has been
>that on major details (ones that influence the outcome of the game/session/
>campaign), a GM can sufficiently prepare. On other, more insignificant details,

Actually, it does. GM's can (and do) make significant mistakes as well as
insignificant ones. When (not if, but when) the players point out to a GM
a mistake that has been made then the GM can either
a) Ignore the mistake and the continuity flaw
b) Retroactively and visibly correct the mistake
c) Retroactively and invisibly correct the mistake (by quickly deciding on
some rationale, unknown to the PC's, that would reconcile the situation)
d) Convince the PCs (possibly after the session) that no mistake had been
made, that the PC's were just wrong.

Again, I've NEVER played extensively under a GM who made no significant
mistakes.  I've often seen published modules with mistakes. Mistakes happen,
all that we can argue about is how to handle them.

And yeah, this has little to do with the improvisation thread that started
this argument. It is probably more common for the Prep GM to choose solution
a) above and the improv GM to choose solution c) above but there is
certainly no hard and fast rule that this is what happens.
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Different playing styles(was Improvisation)
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:36:29 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <l9n71qINN33o@west.west.sun.com>, markk@sagredo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Kampe) writes:
>	HACK-N-SLASH
>
>		is dominated by "plusses" and powers - if you set out to
>		slaughter all living non-humans and ransack every temple
>		on a continent, you are going to need to have something
>		"extra" going for you.  
>
>		The GM is the arbiter of who can do what - making continuous
>		decisions about what the rules mean.

Hey!  Here's a great idea for a game to compete with Combat Monster!  Coming
soon to a game store near you:  "Plusses and Powers"  (P&P for short)!  How
many foes can YOU slay before Armageddon/Ragnarok/whatever-the-hell-you-call-it?
Find out with the NEW P&P!  Coming soon from T$R, The Game Wizards (and don't
you forget it, worm!)

B^) This article is closed smileyed for the humor impaired. B^)

-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
From: lazarus@wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: WANTED: MSH Ultimate Powers Book...
Date: 27 Aug 1992 00:53:33 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu


Does anyone have a copy of the Marvel Super Heroes Ultimate Powers Book, one
that's in "near mint" condition, that they would be interested in selling?  I've
been trying to find a copy of this for the past year, and seeing as how it's no
longer in print, it's almost impossible.  (The only copy I've seen was one that
was still in the plastic, and a friend bought it right out from under my nose. 
I'm STILL pissed about that!)

If you're interested, please e-mail me, and we can discuss terms.  (Nothing overly
extravagant... I'm just a poor college student!)

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
A survivor of the *Prodigy "network"
The 'Cats WILL rule in '92!
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: SRUN: SR2 Errata 1.1
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:22:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.150008.15322@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, GAYNOR@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) writes:
> BTW, I'm still looking for a copy of the ShadowTech errata that
> MacGyver posted to r.g.f.misc/announce a while back.  If you have it,
> please email me a copy.  Thanks!

Me too! Could it be re-posted? Has anyone actually *got* SRII yet???

e----><----p | Stephen Burke           | Internet: burke@vxdesy.desy.de
 H   H   1   | Gruppe FH1T (Liverpool) | DECnet:   vxdesy::burke (13313::burke)
 H   H  11   | DESY, Notkestrasse 85   | BITNET:   BURKE@DESYVAX or SB2@UKACRL
 HHHHH   1   | 2000 Hamburg 52         | JANET:    sb2@uk.ac.rl.ib
 H   H   1   | Germany                 | Phone:    + 49 40 8998 2282
 H   H 11111 | HERA, the world's largest electron microscope!
From: ward1@husc8.harvard.edu (Lester Ward)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: SRUN: Shadowrun I Errata again please
Keywords: Shadowrun
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:18:53 GMT

oldham_r@cs.uwa.oz.au (rob oldham) writes:

>After having read the SRII errata, I'd love to get my hands on the
>SRI errata stuff. I had no idea it existed.... could somebody 
>post it up or e-mail it to me ? Either the 2pg or the full 200k, 
>as talked about in the SRII thread, will do wonderful.

Last time I looked, it was available by anonymous ftp at
ftp.white.toronto.edu
        /pub/frp/shadowrun/collated-shadowrun-errata

>Thanks heaps,

You're welcome.  And stop calling me heaps.

>Rob Oldham

Wordman
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: praxis@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Laura L Perkinson)
Subject: MISC: Of interest
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:58:44 GMT

	Just thought y'all ought to knowe that The Complete Munchkins
Handbook (and a couple of additions) have been posted on rec.games.frp.dnd
(apparently I'm not doing the cross-posting thing coorectly). Funny stuff.
		Praxis
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters)
Subject: Re: Demise of bboard?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:31:09 GMT

In article <1SEP199206583880@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.214621.1@wharton.upenn.edu>, millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes...
>>In article <gece=9y00WAv8362Nm@andrew.cmu.edu>, fl0m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Faye Levine) writes:
>>> Wasn't this bboard going away?  I'm still getting new messages on it...
>> 
>>Your note was posted to rec.games.frp.misc in my neck of the woods. I
>>think we have seen the last of rec.games.frp as a full fledged newsgroup
>>today. RIP. A moment of silence.
>
>Here a U of Houston we are still getting rec.games.frp loud and
>clear.  This morning I had 80+ postings from the weekend.
>
>Tammy
>lib1p@jetson.uh.edu
>

Gee I hate to start a cascade....

OSU no longer gets rec.games.frp as of this morning.  Nada nill zip.

(yes I know I violated the guidelines on trimming posts too  - nyah nyah

B^P

-Coyt
From: kmitcham@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kevin Mitcham)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Legos as props
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:24:53 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

When you use legos to make setups, do yoyu tend to use
ordinary minatures or the silly little lego-men to represent
characters and such?
I found the lego-men to be far to wide to be useful.
(if the lego-men are 6' tall, they are 3' wide!)
Can't put too many 3 foot wide men in a corridor.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Different playing styles(was Improvisation)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:40:47 GMT

   Sea Wasp, you missed one:

   PROBLEM SOLVING: Sort of like Wargaming, but with the emphasis on
resolving the scenario (or "puzzle") the G.M. has posed, rather than
tactics and firepower. Most RPGers use problem solving of one sort or
or another, but real problem solvers are always trying to come up with
efficient solutions.       
	G.M. "You find youself in a 10 x 10 room, with a empty torch
holder on the wall and a pile of rotted wood in the corner."
 
        PCs: "Which corner is the wood in? Where is the torch holder?
How high off of the ground is it? What is the floor made of? The walls?
The cieling? How High is the ceiling? Can we detect any marks or
discolorations on the walls, floor, ceiling? Any air drafts? We watch
the smoke from our torch to see if the smoke blows in any particular
way. We have the elf search for secrtet doors. We have one fighter stand
guard over the door we came in through. We have another fighter stand
guard facing away from the door scanning the far wall and looking at the
cieling. Meanwhile the mage..."

	G.M. [Having answered all the player's questions and
acknowledged their plans] "You find nothing."

        P.C.s: "Obviously this used to be a storage area, but it was
probably modified by orcs as a meat locker and then abandoned. I'll bet
that that wood in the corner is an old butcher's table. That means that
a kitchen of some sort must be near, through a fairly large door. But,
I'll bet it was bricked in. Let's go around and see if we can find a
former exit to this place..."

Tom \|/
     0