From: dwp+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Philips)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Summary: something salient, shortly stated, sadly seldom satoric
Keywords: the 'prison of belief'
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:43:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44224
Distribution: world
Organization: EIEI-U

In article <43973@ogicse.ogi.edu> jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE) writes:
+rlb@plex-1.ann-arbor.mi.us (Robin Billings) wrote:
+ [Robin's writings, with which I mostly agree, elided.  -dwp]
+Whether you believe it or not, there are people in this world who are
+*meant* to approach God through a Guru-disciple relationship. Because
+this is God's Will for these people, this is how they find the most
+meaning and fulfillment in life, and all other lifestyles would be
+inferior for them. 

How is that you are able to determine God's will in this matter?
And how is any third party, such as myself, supposed to decide between
your version of proclaimed divine insight and those who say the same,
but to different effect?

+The Guru-disciple relationship has nothing to do with violence, absurd.

Absurd is your attempt to dismiss the inherent possibility for abuse
and violence in such power imbalanced relationships.  That doesn't mean
that such abuses will occur, but the potential is there and it depends
on the people involved.

+If you were a first-year college student wanting to thoroughly 
+understand quantum physics, would you seek out a teacher?

And if your teacher told you not to study for or attend your other
classes, what would you do?

That analogy is flawed, though very tempting, because it does not embody
the same degree of power differential between the teacher and the student.

+Don't overestimate your own capacities, Ignorance is more alert than you
+or I. Understanding yourself thoroughly in and out requires inner
+illumination, and inner illumination is not something that can be had
+easily and without effort. If you are willing to wait endless 
+incarnations for complete illumination, fine. If not, a God-realized 
+Master can help speed up this process. 

I found that paragraph very revealing, but perhaps I'm reading too much
into poorly chosen words?  "wait endless incarnations"... "Master can help
speed up this process."  Why is the seeker portrayed as passive, having
to "wait" for enlightment through endless incarnations, and, if lucky,
having a Master speed up that process?  Material you wrote further down
in your article suggests that you do not intend for the seeker to be
a passive participant, so you cannot have it both ways.

+One last point, please do not confuse traditional organized religion,
+eg. the kind which inspired crusades, with a spiritual path involving
+a God-realized teacher and his students. Also, be careful how you use
+the word "dependancy".

I had no such confusion over what Robin wrote.  Also, be careful how you
read the word "dependancy".  1/2 ;-)

+the word "dependancy". In a Guru-disciple relationship there is a
+mutual dependancy in that each depends on the other for the relationship
+to grow and prosper. In this regard a better way to put it is that
+the Guru and the disciple work together.

That may be, but the fact still remains that the seeker/disciple is made
to be dependant upon the guru in order to attain inner illumination, and
the guru has no such dependancy on the disciple/seeker.  

-Doug