From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Spirits vs. Animal Rights.  Was: Texas AR Conference
Date: 13 Aug 1992 19:56:48 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <Bst9F1.1w1@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>Mike Linan writes:
>ml> Another question Russell.  Did I ever say to you that I believe in 
>ml> "demons"?  

>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> I believe you did, Mike.  Now answer my question: Is there a 


>ml> Then please do prove it Russell.  If you cannot (which I know you 
>ml> cannot) then we all can see that you just made up all these 
>ml> goblins, demons and goddesses.  

>I noticed that you declined to simply tell us whether you do or 
>don't believe in demons.  Fortunately, I didn't have to look back 
>very far to verify your position.  


>========================================================================
>From article <15rin4INNbq7@agate.berkeley.edu>, 
>ml> Another question Russell.  Did I ever say to you that I believe in 
>ml> "demons"?  
>ml> ...
>ml> Try to understand Russell that I DO believe in all that is in the 
>ml> Bible.  That is not the point and I do not care if ANYBODY thinks 
>ml> I foolish for doing so.  The POINT is that you are trying to 
>ml> PRESENT me in a way that will make me look foolish and by making 
>ml> claims that I never made to you.  
>========================================================================


Sorry Russell, this doesn't cut it.  You'll have to look a whole lot deeper
in your files because I still don't read where I TOLD you I believe in 
demons, ghosts, goblins or goddesses as you claimed I did.

And don't come saying that it's all the same or since I believe in the Bible
you can just assume these things.  PROVE THAT I SAID WHAT YOU SAID I DID.

For the last time, whether I believe in demons or not is not the point.  CAN
YOU UNDERSTAND?   The point is I never told you this and you misrepresented
what I told you in an lying effort to discredit me.


>In pointing out that you believe in the literal truth of the bible, 
>aren't you implying that you also believe in the existence of demons
>(aka goblins), not to mention a sizeable number of other spirit-forms?


Is your interpretation of what you call "implying" the same thing as you 
claiming I SAID THESE THINGS to you?  NO!  The words demons, goblins, ghosts
or goddesses have NEVER crossed my lips (or fingertips) when corresponding 
with you.


>If I'm mistaken, please tell us that you don't believe in demons and
>I'll be happy to amend my previous statements.


I believe in what I believe in.  I am not obligated to disclose my entire 
religious beliefs to you.  

You are mistaken so please, why don't you tell us why you lied?


>rl> As for "gods", "demons", and "goblins" [or whatever], you're free 
>rl> to believe what you will, but you'll continue to hear criticism 
>rl> from me as long as you invoke the imaginary authority of these 
>rl> non-existent entities to justify your own impositions on 
>rl> thinking/feeling beings.  

>ml> Well you are not the first or the last to display such ignorance or 
>ml> foolishness.  Just don't expect me to pay you much attention Russell.  

>First you accuse me of making you look foolish for pointing out 
>that you believe in "demons".  Then you turn around and declare 
>that I look "ignorant" or "foolish" because I don't believe in 
>such beings.  


Sometimes you make it very easy for me to think you are dense or slow 
Russell.  It is YOU who thinks I will look foolish by stating I believe in
demons and that is why you said it.  I on the other hand do not even care
if others think I'm foolish for my religious beliefs or not.


>You can't have it both ways.  So, which is it:


None of you business.  How do you like that Russell?


>rl> It seems to me that you're taking issue with the truth here, Mike.  

>ml> No, I'm taking issue with you saying that I said things to you 
>ml> that I did not say Russell.  I take issue with your deception and 
>ml> dishonesty.  PROVE that I said to you or on the net that I believe 
>ml> in ghosts, demons, goblins and goddesses as you claim I did 
>ml> Russell or I will continue to point out your propensity to lie 
>ml> and misrepresent others.  

>Was I misrepresenting you in stating that you believe in various 
>forms of spirit-life, including demons?  Or conversely, was I 
>stating the truth when I reiterated your position vis-a-vis such 
>beings?  


You were not stating the truth when you said that I TOLD YOU I BELIEVE IN
DEMONS, GODDESSES, GOBLINS OR GHOSTS.  YOU WERE LYING.  PROVE OTHERWISE
OR ACCEPT THE FACT YOU ARE NOW BEING CAUGHT IN A LIE.


>On the whole, I'd say that most of the "facts" that you present 
>are unverifiable, and most of your "reasons" are frought with 
>fallacies.  Should I lie to you and pretend otherwise?  


So you say.  You are entitled to your opinions but as I said, don't expect
me to place any value on them.


>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000


Mike Linan - Still waiting for your proof Russell