From: aburt@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (Andrew Burt)
Subject: Back to ONE vs. IBECC (was Re: Want _Your_ Blood to Boil too?)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 19:09:10 GMT


This argument really got off course -- it started as a gripe about the
ONE bbs con being a bully and trying to knock off the IBECC con.  Talk to
Marshall Barry (mbarry@nyx.cs.du.edu) for details/facts if you want to
know how ONE sleazed on them.  I'd cancel my subscription to Boardwatch
and throw my TBBS software into a blender -- but I don't have either.

Anyway, folks, find out about how unethical the ONE/boardwatch/tbbs folks
are, and vote with your pocketbooks.

***

This got off course, but here's a few parting remarks about taxes:

In <1992Aug19.133159.4961@tijc02.uucp> pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt) writes:

>aburt@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (Andrew Burt) writes:
>: In <1992Aug12.133116.7026@dcatlas.dot.gov> joet@dcatlas.dot.gov (Joe Trott) writes:
>I want people to be able to get the necessities in life.  I think people
>in society should provide them -- voluntarily.  Americans give
>$100,000,000 a year to charities in time and money voluntarily.  People
>are willing to pay for the necessities of other people.  Government
>collects its money by using force and has no incentive to use the money
>wisely so the quality of the services will be poor and the cost high.

Ok, but let's say the gov't is 50% waste (which I am not saying it is --
I take the view that 100% efficiency == 100% dictatorship...), that's still,
what, over $1,000,000,000,000 a year to provide for everyone.  That's
10,000 times as much as people are donating voluntarily -- are you
ready to voluntarily increase your donations 10,000 fold next year?  I
read something, which, taking at face value, said that 1991 taxes were
$450 billion on adjusted gross income of $3.5 trillion.  So about %13 of
all AGI.  Without reducing our waste, that means each of us would have
to, on average, VOLUNTARILY donate 13% of our income.  People may be
generous at $100 million, but I really don't see people donating 10,000
(or MORE) times as much voluntarily.

>This is where you have implied force.  Force is needed to collect taxes.

The real question is whether taxes are needed; force is not the issue,
but a necessity once you admit that you need to collect taxes.  We've done
fairly well in 200+ years with a taxation based system, but of course
no perfect (I maintain that there is no utopia; though we can always
try to improve, we just have to be careful to realize how well off
we already are and what the risk of failure is).

>If a robber comes into your home and steals money from you, this is
>morally wrong.  If 10 robbers steal from you, it is still wrong.  Same
>with 100.  How many people does it take in a gang to make the immorality
>of robbery a moral tax?

There's no exact answer, but somewhere around the point where the society
"chooses" to make it this way.  We made this choice 200+ years ago.  And
it was based on a majority vote (2/3 of states had to ratify the
constitution, right?).

>: I consider public education in this category.  Regardless of the quality
>: of our school system, I think the idea of free access to education a
>: fantastic idea.  I am saying that the net and information in general
>: falls in this category.  Another example would be a public library.
>: I am arguing for the network equivalent, a "public net".  Clearly these
>: cost money to operate, but are not operated for the personal profit
>: of the operators.
>: 
>: Suppose (taking this to its conclusion) that parents had to pay,
>: each individually, for their children's entire education?  Why, we'd
>: be almost as good as 8th century Europe...

>I want good education for children in this country.  Some private schools
>can offer twice the education at half the cost compared to government
>schools.  This is because the government has no incentive to have good
>quality schools at low cost.  The good government schools that do exist,
>do so because there are good, caring teachers.  But they have made the
>school successful DESPITE the system, not because of it.
>: 
>: >That is a decision based on Reason, and I expect to be permitted to gain
>: >from making good decisions (as I expect to be permitted to suffer for my
>: >bad ones).
>: 
>: Of course, but the concept of "society" and "government" is that
>: we cannot accomplish as much as individuals as we can as a group.
>: Not everyone in the group may agree, but they are still expected to
>: honor the "laws" and "customs" agreed to by the whole.  So this
>: argument does not contradict the need for keeping the free market
>: out of certain areas (which is what I meant by "protect" if that
>: wasn't clear).
>: -- 
>I agree.  We can't accomplish as much as individual as we can as a
>group.  But we can accomplish more as individuals in voluntary
>cooperation, than being coerced to participate.  Voluntary cooperation
>can unleash an explosion of creativity and energy.  Coercion and the use
>of force DAMPENS creativity and energy.  Think of the possibilities if
>we could drop the coercion in society today.

Remember, you still have to educate ALL the children, not just the ones with
(generally speaking) above average intelligence and motivation who go
to private schools.  I'm not saying we can't improve public education
(we're in trouble if we can't) but I'm saying that it's a public necessity,
and needs to be funded by the public it serves.

Also, what do we do when private schools refuse to accept students
because they're not "advanced" enough (in whatever way)?  Public school
takes them all.  Or are you assuming that all a private school would care
about, in a completely privatized market, would be money?  They would
need to provide a better product (better educated kid), one very easy
way to do this is only to admit the best ones.  Still leaves the
50% below average kids in the cold...
-- 

Andrew Burt 		   					  aburt@du.edu

      "And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped"
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