From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:05:41 GMT

In <LERNER.92Jul31131449@division.cs.columbia.edu>
lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

[DFS]
>>Of course it's a higer authority.  But that's no way for a government
>>to make decisions - until Moshiach arrives.

> Oh, I see.  We should ignore (chas v'shalom) G-d until then?

No, we should not.  But yes, the government should stay out of the
religion business.

[DFS]
>>But so what?  They are concerned with Jewish law, not Israeli law.  Why
>>should they have any say over what non-O Israelis do?

> I am quite sure that the Gedolim are aware of the Halachas about the
> laws-of-the-land, and strive to ensure these do not contradict the
> Halacha.  Thus they are concerned with Israeli law as well.  

You didn't answer the question:  Why should a group of rabbis, who are
not part of the government or the judiciary, have any say over what
non-O Israelis do?

[DFS]
>>Don't the justices have to go through a confirmation procedure before
>>they can be appointed?

>  There is no more rigorous confirmation procedure than the rigorous
>  selection to which the Gedolim are subjected.

However, that process is completely closed to non-O Israeli citizens, once
again excluding 85% of the people in a supposed democracy.

[DFS]
>>Essentially, yes.  What I am saying is that a *democratically-elected
>>government* has NO BUSINESS telling people that they must abide by rules
>>that only 15% of the population believes in.

> Most people don't believe in speed limits, but they save lives.  

First of all, do you have any statistics to back up your assertion that
most people don't believe in speed limits?

Secondly, do you have any evidence that forcing Orthodox requirements
for marriage, etc. on people saves lives?  Or has any other beneficial
effect, apart from maintaining the O authorities' political power?

>>However, many feel that they are being coerced to obey them.  Is coercion
>>the Jewish way?

> So lets find ways to help people find out why the practices are good.
> Lets start by allowing people the freedom to keep the Shabbos without
> buses, planes and other activities.

This is quite absurd.  When a bus pulls past your house, does it demand
that you break Shabbat?  Is there any precedent in Halacha which states
that if someone else breaks a law, even after you try to talk him out
of it, that it reflects on you?

I'd reverse the situation:  I'd say run buses, planes and movies whenever
you want, and let the truly religious and observant abstain.  This will
prove conviction more than enforced Shabbat "observance."

[DFS]
>>Oh, nonsense.  Please stop this hype.  I am endorsing basic religious
>>freedom for non-O Jews.  I am endorsing a situation little different
>>from Canada or the U.S.  Would you say that Canada and the U.S. are
>>anarchic?

>  My labelling you as an anarchist  simply anticipates your erroneous
>  presumption about my politics.  As far as the US, the educational
>  crisis in this country has been a key issue for decades, along with
>  crime, drug abuse, and growing consumer debt (due to ribbus).  Is
>  the situation you wish to "endorse" for Israel?

Not at all.  But believe me, the situation in Israel ain't that hot,
either.  And Canada has its share of social problems, but is probably
better off than either the U.S. or Israel in that area.

[DFS]
>>You don't read.  I want Israeli citizens to obey the rules of the State
>>of Israel.  What I don't want is to have those rules dictated by a small
>>segment of the population, with no regard to the feelings of the majority.

>  If you think the Rabbonim would act (G-d forbid!) with "no regard for
>  the feelings of the majority" then you are not aware of the extreme
>  sensitivity the Rabbonim actually have to the needs of the individual.

That's quite nonsensical.  I've heard many horror stories of the
hassles "questionable" Jews have been through.  They show a total lack
of sensitivity and concern only for maintenance of political power.  If
the Rabbonim were extremely sensitive to the needs of the individual, they
would not force people to go through ceremonies they do not believe in.


>>[DFS]
>>>-Let me give you an example which will hit home: Suppose the American
>>>-government decided that only religious marriage ceremonies were
>>>-acceptable.  Suppose they did a survey, and found that most Jews liked
>>>-the Conservative movement best.  Suppose that they then made it
>>>-illegal for any rabbi other than a Conservative rabbi to perform
>>>-marriages.  How would you feel?

>>> Such things and worse have been inflicted on our people, and we
>>> have held fast to our Religon. 

[DFS]
>>You didn't answer the question:  How would you feel?  Would you meekly
>>accept it?  Would you be outraged?  Would you demonstrate?  Would you
>>write letters?  Would you campaign against such a situation?  Please don't
>>shy away from the tough questions.

>  My feelings are completely personal and none of your business.

Again, you avoid the issue.  Once you begin to see an issue from someone
else's perspective, it can be mighty uncomfortable.

>  My actions would be to continue living in accord with the Halacha
>  and the psak of the Rabbonim.

Even if it meant being fined or jailed?  And you wouldn't be upset or
angry?

[DFS]
>>Exactly what "rights" are protected when Israel says to, say,
>>Conservative converts: "Sure, you can immigrate, you can fight in the
>>army for your nation - but expect trouble if you or your kids ever
>>want to get married, divorved or buried."
>>

> These tragic conflicts are the direct result of individuals who have
> flouted both Rabbinc and Secular law,  and now want to revise things to
> be more convenient.  

No, they are the result of the crazy political system in Israel and the
disproportionate power of splinter parties.

[DFS]
>>You didn't answer the question, again.  You avoided the issue.  Your posting
>>indicates that you would rather impose Halacha on people than give them
>>democratic rights.

>  Again it is a hypothetical question,  though to the extent that
>  an individual's action against the Halacha will affect other people
>  it is indeed my view that they refrain.    Therefore I support
>  legislation against murder,  against ribbis,  against adultery,
>  etc. 

Fine.  But what about marriage?  Nowhere in Halacha is an Orthodox
rabbi (or any rabbi) required to perform a marriage ceremony.  That's
strictly a power issue.

[A lot deleted]

>  I believe this was my point; that there should be an environment 
>  that allows the Jewish people to learn and practice,  to avoid
>  the misinformation.  I'm very interested in your suggestions on
>  how to improve people's knowledge of what Avraham Aveinu discovered.

Are you saying that in Israel, no such environment exists?  What about
the very Orthodox enclaves like Mea Shearim?  If people want to live
that way, Kol Hakavod.  I'm all for keeping cars and buses outside
those neighbourhoods, letting people run their own schools, and so on.
I wouldn't even mind if they receive state funding.  But don't try to
impose it on others.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________