HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sunny@al.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo)
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:24:18 GMT
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693

I received several electronic mails on this topic and I want to summarize
and clarify the points I have made.

Even though I have vehemently argued in support of AA, I have not been
a directly beneficiary; maybe indirectly in as much as it causes some good
schools to look at all qualified students and not their traditionals base.  I
will also be the first to tell you that I do not support admitting anyone
not QUALIFIED to attend a particular institution on the basis of AA. But this
is NOT the issue here.  The issue is hearing all the white people who
will not, and could not if it hit them in the head, see that being white
in America afford them previleges to the detriment of other groups.
Without AA and the civil right laws of sixties, these previleges
would go unchallenged and otherwise qualified minorities would not be 
considered by some of the schools you guys are using as cases.

One guy really made me laugh by tell me about "cause and effect."  If 
cause and effect was or is the rule, we would not be discussing this
issue at all.  So who is not understanding here?

If I was to agree with some the arguments made by some of the opponents
of AA, I would have to suspect the motives of schools that admit 
unqualified students and watch them fail.  If these schools really
care and did admit unqualified student, then they should have provided
assistance to help the students catch up.

My biggest bone is that some of these schools admit qualified 
students but let them fail because of the environment that have existed
since slavery, among some of which is outright discrimination by some
teachers and other stuff that makes the academic experience for these
students a bad one.  These schools then turn around and show us
statistics and other garbage that fail to consider the root causes of
the drop out of students.  In my life-time I have seen students who
even though they may lack some skills pick them up because they are good
students.  What's apalling is seeing good students drop out and start
to believe themselves inadequate.  You will have to question the type
of education they received or did not receive.

-Sunny

I may not be able to write for sometime and will sure miss this tread.
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:24:28 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article sbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
| johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
| || AA does not stigmatize qualified people.  
| 
| |Talk to Stephen Carter then.  Explain to Mr Carter, who supports AA,
| |that he is mistaken when he notes that AA has stigmatized him. 
| 
| You should not delete surrounding context.  I'll repeat:  AA does not
| stigmatize qualified people.  Others use AA as an excuse to do so.


The context wasn't relevent.  Stephen Carter is well qualified.
Stephen Carter notes that he is stigmatized.  Therefore,
AA does stigmatize qualifed people.  I don't thank Mr. Carter
has any problems with his self confidence, either.  The fact you 
personally do not feel stigmatized, does not change this.

The central problem is one of honors.  An honor is something
which depends upon other people to recognize and respect it
for it to have value.  -- give everyone a medal of
honor and it ceases to be worth anything.  This deprives those
qualified for the honor of the respect they have earned, while
giving the others nothing of consequence.

Stigmatization is a rational response to the knowledge that
honors have been given away.  It is an inevitable result.
People (like yourself, I presume) who are qualified by any
standard either resent the stigmatization (Carter, Sowell, Steele)
or rationalize it by saying everyone is bigoted, anyway.


-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Xref: sparky misc.education:5148 talk.religion.misc:23602 soc.culture.usa:9114
From: ftoppin@eis.calstate.edu (Frank Topping)
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Jesus, etc.
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:32:42 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

Perhaps other newsgroups are interested in knowing what America's
children are being subjected to by Pacific Bell, Pacific Telesis,
the California State Department of Education, the California
Technology Project and the Chancellor's Office of the California
State University System...
 
Courtesy:  Keith Vogt, sysadmin: CTP/CORE
	   Paula Reinman, Education Manager: Pacific Bell
	   (a subsidiary of Pacific Telisis)

                ====re:====

( ...this is an adult discussing religion in a conference for children.
This adult is not a teacher.  Maybe the reason the Supreme Court went
for "Seperation of Church and State" is because the state simply lacks
common sense. This person is uploading 74 messages at a time into the
conference area.)

Chris.Paulus@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Paulus) writes:
> Jon - I agree with your message.  I was baptised as a Catholic, but I
> no longer believe in God or religion.  There is one discrepancy:  Why
> pray to God, asking him to forgive your sins, telling him your sorry
> when he supposedly already knows what you've done wrong, and he
> forgives you anyway?  Common courtesy?  <snicker>
>  
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> --  
> uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!226!540!Chris.Paulus
> Internet: Chris.Paulus@f540.n226.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:54:42 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
| For a non-racist, all workers, black and
| white are equally qualified before AA. 

Before AA and before equal opportunity I'd have assumed the black
was more qualified, not equal.  The barriers to achievement 
(legal and social) were much higher, the opportunities were less,
and so anyone who made it did it by being far better than everyone
else.

When socially conscious universities first set out to admit blacks,
they often passed over the more qualified blacks to find the
'right kind of black'.  In other words, qualified == middle class
== 'not really black'.  In all my research, that was probably
one of the most infuriating things I found.  Oh yes, most of
those 'middle class' blacks were the sons and daughters of
cab drivers and day laborers -- not lawyers and doctors.




-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY? Ain't dead yet!
From: hayes@brandonu.ca
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:12:12 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

 As I reviewed the ongoing discussion concerning the late, great United
States (Sorry, guys/gals, that is the way you are coming across) I thought of
that old poem:  Apples and oranges and excrement BONDEDTOGETHER, still don't
make good quality cement...nor apt comparisons.
The United States schools, as well as Canadian, take everyone and question
nothing about their performance as a basis to get into a grade or high school
class.  The honorable Japanese stream only their best and the scores that are
used, often, to prove how inadequate and inept are Los Americanos, and
particularly how ineffective are their schools, are apples and oranges.  The
other binding material mentioned previously is what the media and the nay
sayers then applique.  American scores reflect averages of the spectrum of the
students assessed.  That spectrum runs from very able to the very non-able
because they are in the public school cohort.
 Japanese scores (assuming comparability, similarity of instrumentation, etc.)
 reflect the averages of an above average group.  The type of kids that North
American teachers have to teach represent the spectrum of the society.  The
type of kid who pulls the scores down in the American averages is for all
intents and purposes streamed out of the Japanese schools and put into some
marginal societal circumstance...another ant in the assembly line.
Compare North American scores from the upper achievement cohorts, comparable to
what the Japanese cohort constitutes and you get a bit more adequate
comparison.
I do not suggest that there are not problems.  There have been and they have
existed for a long time.  Research that I did on a six year study of entering
students, in a well known larger Canadian university, in the 1960s showed that
of all of those entering, all had regular high school graduation, and that over
31% were reading three years behind entry level.  These problems are not new
ones and waving our arms around as if this had just happened is
counter productive.  Some fundamental changes in practice and application in
Education are needed...but suggesting that the U. S. (de facto Canada, as well)
are really nothing but sliders into third world oblivion demeans the nation(s)
and does not address the problem.

Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women,alt.discrimination
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Good Globe Article
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:37:15 GMT

In article <e9NeVB3w165w@netlink.cts.com>, galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:

|> Actually, Jason, Malcolm X addressed those same points way back in 1965 
|> when he posed to us a question:
|> 
|> "Who taught you to hate yourself?"
|> 
|> Actually, he was addressing even more than what Derrick included in his 
|> column. And to date, I don't think we as a group have fully been able to 
|> answer that question of Malcolm's.

Then it seems premature to give out punishment.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:12:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.060605.19319@eng.umd.edu>, clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

|>    In that case, AA is not doing what it ought to.   The question is that
|> even if you remove racism and discrimination, I would think that there
|> would still be a large number of minorities who aren't going to get
|> move up in society (and this applies to other poor people).   I was
|> watching an interview with Robert Reich,  who is Labor Secretary designate
|> in Clinton's administration, who said that the top 20% of the people are
|> doing well, while the bottom 80% are going on waht he calls a downward
|> escalator.   If true, it seems to say that class to play an important
|> part in determining whether you do well or not.

It is, however, not true. This assertion made often by the Clinton
Administration, is based on the fact that the wealth in our nation
has become more concentrated at the top. The top, however changes.
It turns out that the top 20% ten years ago did NOT gain faster
economically than the rest of the nation. In fact, there is still a
lot of class mobility, both upwards and downwards, and MANY of the
people who were in the top quintile 10 years ago are no longer there.
The figures that the Clinton administration keeps mentioning are
that the top 20% NOW has more than 10 years ago. This is obviously the
case. The way you get into the top 20% is by improving your economic
standing. This is merely a clever use of figures. (VERY clever though,
I had to have this pointed out to me by an insert in the NYT.)

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Racism Defined ... 
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:59:07 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article root@gnn.org (Michael Mussington) writes:
| Another answer: An attempt of an ethnic group or any member thereof to
| implement procedures or structures intended to subordinate member of 
| another ethnic group, based upon an assertion that differing ethnicity
| constitutes qualitative difference.

Another answer: An attempt to
implement procedures or structures intended to harm or subordinate 
member of another ethnic group, based only on their membership 
in said group.

-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.
From: davidlai@unixg.ubc.ca (David TW Lai)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: General Certificate of Education (G.C.E.) Examination
Date: 20 Dec 92 01:46:35 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

Hi everyone,

	Do anyone know how I can write the G.C.E. Exams in Canada?  I'm
currently living in Canada but would like to take the exams to satisfy
the U. of London admion requirement.  If anyone has this information,
or has the address of the G.C.E. office (in England or elsewhere), please
let me know!  Moreover, if anyone know how I can write the exam in 
Canada, please let me know too!

	May I take this chance to wish you all a wonderful holiday.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

							Regards,

							David.

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:51:01 GMT

>The issue is hearing all the white people who
>will not, and could not if it hit them in the head, see that being white
>in America afford them previleges to the detriment of other groups.

Since you cannot name any such privileges which are restricted to Caucasians,
since such privileges do not exist, since all race-based privileges are
denied to Caucasians, no rational person would see this mythology of
yours are real. As for your racist comment that only Caucasians see through
the mythology, it is just that, a racist comment.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:22:03 GMT

I'm in the embarrassing position of disagreeing with a supporter. Charles Lin
comments:

    Even if we could eliminate racism and prejudice, such programs
such as AA are meant, I think, to compensate for the inequality
between the races through legal means.   If we believe the poor and
less educated people are likely to have poor and less educated
children, and that minorities have a larger percentage of people
who are poor and less educated, then programs like AA are meant
to compensate for this kind of inequality.    Whether it is doing
this is something people could debate.   AA is not meant to eliminate
prejudice, but then I don't think it was meant to do that.  Is
AA racist?  Not if you use Crawford's definition (see his article).
Does it preferentially treat races?  Yes.   Will it eliminate
prejudice?  Probably not.

(I know, I've complained about long pastes, but give me a break...)

The problem with Affirmative Action is that is does indeed take the
applicant's race (rather than individual traits) as a deciding factor. And to
hire someone on the basis of AA is not improve the status of the "group," but
only of the individual who gets the job or the place in school. If anything,
as my hero Shelby Steele points out, AA will probably most benefit the
children of affluent, educated middle-class minorities and women who least
need a compensating advantage. The vast majority of minority and female
students and job applicants will continue to miss out.

Maybe it doesn't bother those who benefit from AA, but it would drive me
crazy to know I'd received a job not because I was a clever sod with more
talent and experience than anyone else competing with me--but because someone
thought tall myopic males of Anglo-German-Slovak-Polish descent had had such
a crappy time that they deserved preferential treatment. By the same token,
AA deprives women and minorities of real assurance that their ability is
equal to that of others...and thereby keeps them trapped in the ghetto.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:58:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.183526.2693@panix.com>, pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec13.012844.945@samba.oit.unc.edu> Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
|> >>BTW, I am STILL waiting for you to produce a list of white
|> >>and asian students who were "qualified" and have not been
|> >>able to attend college due to AA. 
|> >
|> >I refer you to the famous case where a person was denied access to
|> >Med school in California solely because he was Caucasian. He had
|> >to go to court to obtain access.
|> 
|> You mean the Bakke case, which involved an overage applicant (fewer
|> years of return for society's investment) with marginal grades and
|> a chip on the shoulder so major that only a fool would want him for
|> a doctor? He had only higher test scores going for him. But then
|> of course U Cal was eventually forced to admit him, so he was able
|> to attent medical school (not college).
|> 
|> Hard cases make bad law

It is not surprising that his facts were wrong, but it is beyond any reasonable
doubt that UC Berkely's AA policies have been clearly racist. Over the years
thousands of underqualified blacks have been admitted over more qualified
white and Asian applicants. An interesting situation in the case of UC schools
is that in some cases it appears that underqualified whites may have been
admitted over more qualified Asians. I am aware of few examples (other than the
Ivy League where it is legal and acceptable) where this has occured.

I think we need to look at UC Berkely in perspective though. Just as a small
fraction of employers are racist, a small fraction of colleges have allowed AA
to get out of hand. When examining the negative impact of AA programs, you really
can't use UC Berkely as an example.

An immediate problem that those who oppose AA (like myself) find when ignoring
such blatant examples of AA gone wrong is that it suddenly becomes difficult to
quantify how badly AA has hurt America. This should not be surprising however. It
is the same problem that people who are in favor of AA encounter when they
try to quantify discrimination in the United States.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:52:46 GMT

In article <R1XiVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com>, galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
|> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
|> Greg: 
|> > How do you define racism?

|> Answer: A consistent and systematic attempt by one ethnic group to 
|>         maintain political, social or economic dominance or control
|>         over another within a society.

By grouping all members of ethnic groups together and by requiring consitency,
you ensure that what some whites do today can not be considered racism. I
suggest you go searching for a new definition.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: sunny@il.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:41:07 GMT


In article <1992Dec10.010630.1914@microsoft.com>, johnhall@microsoft.com
(John Hall) writes:
|> It works that way, though.  If you let people in not fully prepared for
|> the work, they end up leaving in droves (again, summary at the end).


You conveniently ignore other factors that have a bigger influence in
student dropout rate such as the support network availiable to the
students and the faith of teachers on the students.  Asians tend to do
well in fields that society stereotype them to be good at and bad in
others.

Numerous studies has shown that what a teacher believe a student to be
capable of affect the teacher's ability to be a positive force on the
student.  Also, many students (white or black) will do well in a trusting
and friendly environment than on a hostile one.  Hammer away at a student's
self confidence and in time you will get the student to believe he or she
is indeed not good enough.  It is not a mistery that many American academic
environment are hostile towards blacks in the same way as the larger
society; but you will rather hide behind a statistics.

So just what does your statistics say again?

-Sunny
Xref: sparky misc.education:5402 soc.culture.african.american:13049 alt.discrimination:5377
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
From: galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:40:46 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:

> In article <R1XiVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com>, galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
> |> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
> |> Greg: 
> |> > How do you define racism?
> 
> |> Answer: A consistent and systematic attempt by one ethnic group to 
> |>         maintain political, social or economic dominance or control
> |>         over another within a society.
> 
> By grouping all members of ethnic groups together and by requiring consitency
> you ensure that what some whites do today can not be considered racism. I
> suggest you go searching for a new definition.
> 
> Jason W. Solinsky


Jason:
What I need is not a new definition, but an end to the fulfillment of the 
existing one.
G.

--
Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-2333 (fax)
San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: misc.education