HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zarr@lk-hp-14.hut.fi (Mari (Black Panther) Sepp{)
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:47:11 GMT

In article <4381@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

   In article <ZARR.92Dec14222618@lk-hp-11.hut.fi> zarr@lk-hp-11.hut.fi (Mari (Black Panther) Sepp{) writes:
   > [ rec.*.judo ] Any votes?

>	   Boo on this idea.  Nothing on judo?  We just had a megabyte
>   flame war on why judo is/is not a good martial art for a new student,
>   and another meg on why grabbing someone's throat in your hands and 
>   squeezing is not a proper choke...  

Did it have "judo" in the subject?  I have so many other newsgroups and
so much other stuff to do that I only choose the articles that have judo in
their subject-line to read.  I don't usually have the time (like right 
now...I should be reading for an exam O:-), but when I do, I'd like to 
read more than just the things relating to judo.  This would be easy if 
there were a separate newsgroup for judo. On the days I am busy I could 
only read the judo newsgroup and do catch-up for this group...

With the volume right now..around 80 articles per day..I skip all that
don't have judo in their subject and that way might miss a lot. :-(

>	   Were you in the men's room ? :-) :-) :-)

Probably not..most likely in women's room ;-)

Mari
--
"Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes.  I get stranger things than you
free with my breakfast cereal."   -- Zaphod Beeblebrox
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mari Seppa                      *            zarr@snakemail.hut.fi
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging vs. Martial ARTS
From: accmjm@vaxa.hofstra.edu
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:28:33 EST

In article <lee5.723273126@husc8>, lee5@husc8.harvard.edu (Patrick Lee) writes:
> hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
> 
>>has had some very positive results, and that is wonderful.  Now, this person,
>>however, seems to think that any training outside of MM is useless.  The main
>>comment is something to the effect of  "Oh, you know MM was started because of
>>this woman black belt who was raped and could not use her training because
>>she was taught to pull her punches,...." etc.
> 
> Sigh.. I think what she's missing is the ART part of Martial Arts... MA's
> aren't just for self-defense. In addition, MM is so effective precisely
> because it is brutal. It emphasizes efficient strikes against vulnerable
> targets (i.e. groin, kneecaps, head) because they give a person with a
> minimum of training the ability to defend themselfves. Someone with more
> training in a martial art can accomplish the same results without
> excessive damage. (i.e. ask her if one of her friends lost control one day
> and threw a punch at her. Is it proper to kick the friend in the groin, or
> would a block and subdue method be more appropriate.) Considering that MM
> is designed for use in specific extreme situations Mugging, Rape.. the
> massive retaliation ethic makes sense. But Martial arts are not merely
> about learning to kill/maim people as effectively as possible. That's what
> Guns/ClusterBombs/GermWarfare are for...
> 
> -Pat

Although I have had no Formal training in either MM or the Matial-ARTS, I've
read enough to formulate an opinion on this matter of whether Martial-arts
is valuable.  
	I, for one do see a great degree of merit in the 'traditional' Martial
-arts.  Now don't get me wrong-- I make No claim of knowing the names of various
art forms, the history behind them, and the reigons (primarily in the far
east??) from where they originated.  But I do have a preliminary grasp
of the elegance, beuaty, and rich heritage behind the various Martial Arts.
	So many say that the aesthetic and practical values of learning
a MA form are numerous.  I posit this question to those who would know such
things:
	What are some of these numerous benifits --be they artistic, practical
  or simply self-satisfying?
 	(I have no doubt that the points made in response to this question, 
if listed sequentially, will vary with regard to who is writing the answer 
and what benifits person X reaps from his/her training in MA Y)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ftit@woundedknee.engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Subject: Re: ki and science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:14:26 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ftit@woundedknee.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Dec14.145521.22216@sei.cmu.edu>, psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
|
|14-Dec-92 14:18	Frank@mindlink.bc.ca (Frank I. Reiter)	Re: science and ki
|>This is certainly true of many "educated" westerners, but let's not confuse
|>the science with the scientists, nor even judge an entire group by the
|>attitudes of a portion thereof.
|
|You're right, I'm expressing a prejudice.  But hell, test my hypothesis that
|you will be shunned if you take the notion of chi seriously in 99% if all
|American scientific institutions.  If you work in one, try it out.  Propose a
|study to verify the existence of chi in your home institute and see what
|happens.  My presupposition is that you will be ridiculed.  It is highly
|predictable.

Most probably.  How would you react to a proposal to spend the
University's money (it gets harder and harder to sqeeze out of them
undergrads every year!) to research an intangible phenomenon which
cannot be detected by any means known to man, but still has many and
varied wonderful properties?  Forget for a moment that it's chi.
Pretend that it's a Welsh concept called llwwwwwllalloch and you'll get
the idea.

Perhaps what is needed for a scientific study of chi is a preliminary
experiment -- something to give the concept credibility.  Young's
double-slit experiment was very easy to reproduce in my highschool
physics class, and we even got ballpark-range figures.  Why isn't it
possible to build some primitive equipment to detect the presence of
chi?  Let's assume that chi is a natural phenomenon.  Let's also assume
that this phenomenon interacts in some way with other phenomena.  It
should then be possible to detect and maybe even measure it.  If someone
can detect some anomolous radiations from sources of chi my guess is
that Science will become very curious.

Maybe what you'll find will be nothing new but a known interaction of
known phenomena.  Perhaps the results will be strange enough to make
scientists revise their perceptions of something or other.  Maybe you
will even discover something entirely new.  In any case, just saying it
exists simply because you felt it isn't going to convince anyone.
People have seen Elvis at their local 7-11s but I have my doubts to tell
the truth.  If you can come up with hard reproducable proof, on the
other hand, that would be great.  A whole new field to research!  A new
set of physical laws to study!  Scientists would come to study this new
thing in droves.  Hm, I'm sure there would be some place for a computer
programmer in there somewhere; wonder how I could get in...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  ftit@engin.umich.edu   |   "... a stainless steel rat in the       |
|    (Sergej Roytman)     |  ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet"   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say no to four-line .sigs.
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:30 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Dec16.142126.15756@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>	Well, there seems to be a misunderstanding here.
>	Peter is criticizing the attitudes of western scientists: he's
>accusing them of intellectual insularity (IMHO a valid criticism),

Sure, it's valid to criticize anyone for being too narrow-minded,
although I personally felt that, left unchallenged, Peter's
criticism was an overgeneralization, if only because my experience
of scientists seems to have been different from his.

>One can say "XXX is outside of the realm of scientific discourse", and
>it seems innocuous of itself.
>	But science has a sneaky habit of being associated with Truth and
>knowledge. Eventually, what happens is that the original positivist statement
>of "XXX is outside the realm of scientific discourse" becomes "XXX is outside
>the realm of rational discourse".
>	Suddenly, whole classes of human experience are invalidated. 

It is innocuous to say that something is outside the realm of
scientific discourse. The issue of whether that characterization
invalidates an idea is a philosophical question quite separate
from its accessibility to scientific study. One need not accept
logical positivism and the scientific method as one's philosophy
of life in order to be a good scientist (though one can, of
course choose to so accept them if one wishes). This is a matter
of individual taste in metaphysics.

Logical Positivism is a philosophical stance that is on equal
footing with other such stances; its merits are arguable,
just as are other philosophical stances'. Like other such
stances, its acceptance implies certain consequences, such as
for what phenomena are to be taken as legitimate objects of
serious discourse.

As far as science and chi go, if we decide that chi is a phenomenon
like anger, whose effects are entirely subjective, then we
have no business complaining if scientists dismiss it from
their realm of discourse. In fact, in defining it in purely
subjective terms, we have already so dismissed it.

If, on the other hand, we are going to claim that it is an
objectively observable phenomenon suitable for scientific
investigation then it is incumbent upon us to formulate
a specific description of the phenomenon, and to accept the
consequences of scientific investigation, up to and including
the responsibility that if we don't like the results we
ought to be prepared to criticize the investigations on
scientific terms. (Do I need to say that ad hominem allegations
that scientists are close-minded do not constitute scientific
criticisms?)
From: robear@access.digex.com (Robear)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: WTF + ITF = ???
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 16 Dec 1992 14:05:44 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <50040214@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) writes:
>>Not to mention that Hapkido and Aikido
>>use the same kanji characters (which the founder of Hapkido claimed 
>>was just coincidence; anybody know more about this?).  
>
>The founder of Hapkido (Choi, Yong Sool) was the adopted son of Japanese
>GrandMaster Takeda, Sogaku.  Choi studied under Takeda in Japan from the 
>age of 9 until Takeda died in 1943.  Uyeshiba was also a student of Takeda
>from 1918 thru 1921.  (Choi and Uyeshiba remained friends until
>Uyeshiba's death in the 60's.)  Choi founded Hapkido in 1948,
>supposedly adding the kicks present in the Korean Kwans with what he had
>learned from his father in Japan.  Choi claimed that he named Hapkido after 
>the island Hokkiado:Hapkido.  

     Our Hapkido school was based on the curriculum taught by GM Choi in the
late 1950's, and brought over to America by his then Head Instructor.
It included only minimal punches and no TKD-like kicks, all kicks being
below the waist or at a prone target.  Punches were used only as atemi
are in Aikido.  Since GM Choi visited the school personally several
times, and authorized it verbally and on paper as legitimate, I have
to question the assertion that he added the puchy-kicky stuff seen in
most Hapkido schools.  Can this be verified?  My understanding is that
this is only found in the schools derived from certain of his students,
which is actually most of them hHese days.

How many schools, of those operating in the US/Canada/UK, have GM CHoi's
direct authorization?
		David Pipes

Actually, I no longer study Hapkido, so this is pretty academic for me...

>
>Two students of Choi were the current GrandMaster of Sin Moo Hapkido, Ji, Han
>Jae and the GrandMaster of the World Hapkido Federation, Myung, Kwan Sik.
>(gleaned from Tae Kwon Do Times, March 1989)
>
>Ray
From: cthulhu@diku.dk (Stefan Krabbe)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: MA GIF Files
Date: 20 Dec 92 11:55:12 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

ddewar@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (derek.a.dewar) writes:


>To the guy who had the MA gif files :
>Could you send them to rec.martial-arts as well as alt.binaries.pictures.misc,
>as we have restricted access, and don't get that group.

Yeppers.

-- 
                                     ___
  Name:  Stefan Krabbe       .......(o o).......
  Email: cthulhu@diku.dk     ---vvv---U---vvv---
  Institute of Computer Science, University of Copenhagen.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re: Car jacking
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:37:54 EST


I have really come to agree with the basic sentiment of a current teacher of
mine: you have to be open to the thought that you might have to forget all of
your training to survive.  Thinking in advance about an attack to the throat,
a kick to the shin, whatever... all irrelevant in the face of a life or death
attack.  You must be prepared to rip and claw, perhaps tackle your opponent
and bite the flesh off his neck--nothing short of total commitment.  This guy
had a claw hammer, as lethal as a gun in my view.  I think a lot more than I
ever thought before about martial arts is contingent on your willingness to
access the pure animal instinct in your soul.  If it were only just
techniques, virtually all of us would be masters, after all, in MA you learn
deadly techniques within a week.  The question is how well you apply any of
them, especially as it pertains to pure animalistic reactions such as fear and
hate.
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:39:31 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Next California will outlaw the practice of martial arts.

Charles Yeomans
From: poore@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:05:22 GMT
Reply-To: poore@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore)
Organization: Florida State University

In article <ZARR.92Dec14222618@lk-hp-11.hut.fi> zarr@lk-hp-11.hut.fi (Mari (Black Panther) Sepp{) writes:
>I am in exactly same position as Jarmo.  I subscribed to rec.martial-arts
>in hope of finding some information of judo, but there are too many posts
>here that I am not interested in and I am afraid I miss the few posts that

I really don't see the problem. I've never seen more than 80 messages on
any given day, is that such a burden to look through? Especially since
any decent newsreader will allow you to search for keywords...

David Poore
poore@dirac.scri.fsu.edu

From: rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:21:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Quick response was Quick question
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

> I'm not sure you're addressing his concern here.  He specifically said
> *household* guns are most often used on owners and families.

Which we all should know by now is incorrect.  "Household" guns are NOT 
used most often on owners and families and never have been.  See a study
done by liberal Florida State criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck (1986) for complete
information and data. 

Ray
From: ami-tox@cup.portal.com (Enrico Ami-tox gilberti)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Throwing Knifes
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 20:39:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Anyone know of any books out there on knife throwing ?

   thanx
From: wrankin@ee.egr.duke.edu (William T. Rankin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: need JKA contact
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:15:12 GMT
Organization: Duke University EE Dept.; Durham, NC
Originator: wrankin@ee.egr.duke.edu


In article <1992Dec14.193332.22331@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, afsar@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com ( ) writes:
> el24+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edward Liu) writes:
> :  I was under the impression that Master Ohshima broke away from the JKA after
> : Master Funakoshi died, but he didn't want to join the other folks leaving the
> : JKA to form the Shotokai.

> If you go to their dojos they say yes we are JKA too. Just try them.

oh wow! i guess that i'll have to tell my sensei about this.
i guess he's been telling us the wrong thing to say all these years...

(best homey clown voice on:) 
i don't think so.


-bill
From: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: more from a verified splitter
Date: 16 Dec 1992 00:10:54 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Department MSCS
Distribution: world
Reply-To: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk)
NNTP-Posting-Host: studsys.mscs.mu.edu
Originator: kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu

       okay -- are there any mailing lists out there which are more
  specific?  i don't know of any ... are there any?  ... or is this
  suggestion something like telling someone to look for the FAQ from
  this group -- which from what i've seen from what i've read (not
  all that much really, only recently started reading), is about as
  easy as describing the sound of one hand clapping.  ... as he tries
  to paint his eyebrows back on.

       by the way -- i think that the introduction of more specified
  newsgroups does not, of inherent logical necessity, lead to a 
  newsgroup for each and every variation of each and every technique
  of each and every master's unique angle on each and every style from
  each and every time period yet known to humanity ...  i have faith
  in the intelligence of the average net user to not want to open up
  this flood gate to such a monumental tide -- at least more than the
  seemingly paltry average number of posts that this group receives;
  at least that is what the masters of prolific net use would dis-
  dainfully reminded me of, "too many posts?!  krist man, you should've
  seen that time when ..." -- of insane spiltters.  watch out, oh mighty
  and unified r.m-a, for the 7' tall, PCP using thug with a nack for
  tearing your beloved newsgroup limb from limb!  it seems mr. lincoln
  will allow for no states to succeed from this union of styles -- one
  newsgroup, under god.

       so enough of my bruised ego ...  are there any mailing lists
  out there?  and if not, who would be interested in starting one
  for -- since it seems there is a desire for one -- judo.  by the
  way, not me.  like i said, i was just lending my support to the
  idea of more specific newsgroups -- i have no interest in judo
  per se.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                "hell is other people" - Jean Paul Sarte                   |
|                                mail sent by: Damien Kixk    :-(           |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Keywords: Has he got an acute appendix?  No, but he's got a nice set of pecs!
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 17:00:59 GMT

In article <Bz94Jz.JC0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>muscles.  Remember that Houdini used to take punches to the stomach
>to demonstrate how strong he was.  He died after someone hit him
>in the solar plexus.

I thought the story was that the blow ruptured his acute appendix.  That's
not particularly near the solar plexus, is it?

-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...Ch'en worked in a drugstore on the
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |second story...and at noon each day he
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |would leave for lunch in an eccentric
55428                |                |way: he would stroll out the window..."
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RE: Drugs and fighting (qat and other 'narcotics')
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:19:39 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.rose-hulman.edu


if i remember correctly, 'qat' and its equivalents are mild stimulants.
they are usually chewed. 

mukund
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: FAQ
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:02:00 +0000

Well done Mary - looks like you are being strongly tipped to be
the Editor.


I'll be happy to contribute to the Shotokan section. Although I'm
not sure how to ftp stuff yet.


Bill Burgar.
From: bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: new SEAL book title?
Date: 12 Dec 92 04:23:19 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises, Inc.

In article <Bz3I4t.1B6@access.digex.com> robear@access.digex.com (Robear) writes:
>Just to clear things up, I never wrote what was attributed to me above.
>The attributions have been mutated, and my comments entirely removed.
>	David Pipes
>.

I just counted the > signs in the post...  It looks like somebody who
posted earlier in the thread cut out your text without cutting out your
name.  Sorry for any confusion I might have caused!

bill
-- 
 *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@wisdom.bubble.org          *
XY + XX = :-)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl)
Subject: Re: Ki and science
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:43:51 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Gregory E. Garland (geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com) wrote:
: 
: He radiated yellow light?  Ah! The golden glow! :-)
Is this a classic asking Edison, before he succeeded ?
: 
: You should be _extremely_ wary of articles in popular literature that
: give proof by obscure reference to alleged "scientific studies". 
: "Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
: 
Thank you for your reply. I am obviously not able to prove an article on
whatever, but I enjoy ideas. So as .semi. means semiconductor I guess,
let's turn to practise and raise a question: What kind of radiation,
particles could be measured by present day equipment ? What sensors
can be applied to human and at what distance ?

Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria, Europe (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)
Xref: sparky rec.martial-arts:15980 soc.culture.pakistan:18461
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: The Old Man Had Timing
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 18 Dec 1992 23:13:30 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec18.104506.803@hls.com> silatman@hls.com writes:
>
>I will address the issue of prayer to God, no matter what
>your religion [Judaism, Christianity or Islam], as we
>practice our favorite styles of Martial Arts or any
>other sports.

Well, Khan, my religion (if you can call it that) is philosophical Taoism,
and its relation to my martial art is subtle, profound, and far more complex
than this "pray to God and if he likes you he'll turn you into a Righteous
Dude" line you've been pushing since before I can remember.

E.g.:

>   For this second kind of Seeing, you need
>the Grace of God. You need to pray to Him, because
>without that Seeing all your technique,
>all your power, all your speed adds to nothing.

I'd like to tell you all about it, but for some reason I have the feeling
you don't have much interest in anything that doesn't revolve around a 
anthropomorphized, patriarchal deity who likes to play favorites.

I mean, yeah, it would be nice if the universe were that simple, but 
in my experience, it isn't.

-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts