HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Patrick Maun <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>
Subject: RE: Northern Exsposure
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 22:31:08 GMT

Original-Sender: Patrick Maun <AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>

     I don't believe anyone here is going to argue that a written
language is a bad thing for a minority culture. With written language
comes the ability to spread ones language and culture. Written
language also allows people removed from their cultures
environment to keep up with happenings there. It allows the culture to
live on, even when it's members are gone. Written language is an
invaluable tool.This is a job usually assumed with story telling, song,
and dance.  Written language can also have an effect (and sometimes
disastrous) on a cultures story telling and other forms of art as it
replaces these as the societies main form archiving. Video is a tool. It
can be used for many good things as well as bad. The typical
television show is not an example of a good video. Why not keep your
children from writing as it may affect their ability to present their
emotions with song or dance. If you keep them from writing you may
keep them from the written evils of Nietzsche, or de Sade, or
"American Psycho" for that matter. Of course they may miss out
Shakespeare, or Rilke, or Salinger. Instead of condemning televion
as bad, why not show your children good television. Talk to them
about what it is and how it can be used. Instead of immediately
condemning this new technological tool, show how it can be used.
Everyone here uses the computer as a tool. It is our gateway to the
networks, a truly powerful tool in it's own right. I don't think that a fear
of technology is the problem here, but rather a media that has been
used primarily for "bad" reasons. Does anyone one out there oppose
the introduction of computer networks to minority cultures? I think that
video can have as possitive effect on society as the networks can. It is
all just a matter of how it is used.

Patrick Maun

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: <CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu!SJSUVM1.BITNET!KMACKAY>
Subject: AI in Clintons Cabinet
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:46:28 GMT

Original-Sender: <CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu!SJSUVM1.BITNET!KMACKAY>

From: Ken MAcKAy


>I think that it is sad that a position is filled based on
 sex or race as opposed to performance and capability...I
 believe that positions should be filled on the basis of
 qualifications not because the position has to represent diverse America.

These are noble sentiments.   However a quick look at
 American history or present statistics indicate that the
 reverse has been true since the country was founded, if not
 longer.  When I was in college it was no secret that there
 were quotas on the number of Jews admitted to Medical
 School, especially because they were qualified.  Women in
 academe and industry earn less than their male
 counterparts.  African-Americans can't get mortgage loans
 even if qualified.  The glass ceiling is still with us.
 The point is that women and people of color were excluded
-and continue to be excluded- on the basis of gender or
 color.  If positive attempts are made to redress this, it
 is not a sad situation.:

Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Proposed 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date:  9 Jan 93 03:31:34 GMT

fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer) writes:

>I'm still confused. Who is included in "native populations throughout
>the world"? Does this include white, germanic people in nothern
>Europe? Is this the place to discuss the effects of the events in the
>years 200-600 on the peoples of Europe, the nationalities, cultures,
>religions, and languages?

>/Lars

Hello Lars,

Good to hear from you.  I'm going to have to confess ignorance about
native people in any other part of the world except for the Americas.
For the sake of this newsgroup, I would say that native is equivalent
to the first or close to first people who occupy an area. Admittedly,
this is a very loose definition, but it is at least sufficient to 
give us a general area for discussion.  If there are still Germanic
tribal people around, regardless of their race, I for one would 
love to talk to them and hear how they view the world.  If someone
wished to discuss the world of the tribal Germanic Angles, Saxons,
and Jutes, and their relationship to, say, Great Britain from 200 
A.D. to 600 A.D., I see no reason to exclude them from this general
newsgroups "native."  There may be a time later to make another 
hierarchy -- soc.culture.native.european -- but for now the general
native newsgroup is open to all regions, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for your comments.  I look forward to hearing more.

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Marianne Dugan <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!OREGON.UOREGON.EDU!MDUGAN>
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:42:06 GMT

Original-Sender: Marianne Dugan <OREGON.UOREGON.EDU!MDUGAN>

Lyn Dearborn writes:
>
>Speaking of Northern Exposure .... did anyone see this week's program?
>Can someone tell me why Marilyn was being "honored" at the PowWow-type
>gathering?  I was led to believe it was an episode I had seen, so I
>didn't tape it ... but I came in the room just as "Marilyn Whirlwind"
>was announced and saw her dancing ... she's quite lovely, in the
>"right environment".

It was some sort of "talent show" type situation (I'm sure there'
s a better word for it).  By the native people in the area.

What that part made me wonder was -- was that really Alaska
native type music and dancing?  It looked and sounded like plains
music and dance.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Marianne Dugan  mdugan@oregon.uoregon.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: gnosys.svle.ma.us!"Bradley Olson"
Subject: Re: Dances with Wolves problems
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:16:00 GMT

Original-Sender: "Bradley Olson"

On Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:06:39 GMT NativeNet%gnosys.svle.ma.us@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU sai
d:
> Original-Sender: dgh@validgh.com (David G. Hough on validgh)
>
> [ This article is being relayed from the Usenet "alt.native" newsgroup. ]
>
> In article <9212281525.AA21724@us1rmc.bb.dec.com>,  writes:
>
> > it's like Dances With Wolves (which also has many, many problems)
>
> Don't rehash this if it's old material, but it seems to me that a big
> problem with Dances With Wolves is it makes the Lt., and the Lakotas, look
> like a bunch of heroic saints, and the enlisted ranks of the US Cavalry,
> and the Pawnees, look like a bunch of bums.   Something that clear cut
> doesn't sound like real life.
> --
>
> David Hough
> dgh@validgh.com

I am probably ignorant of many of the implications of this issue but
I would like to make a comment in hopes that I may be enlightned by
any responses to my comment.  I think that you are correct that the
movie does paint those groups as saints and bums.  I think however that
while those caractorizatons are not accurate in general they convey the
reality percieved by any group involved in violence
with another group.  You could see these perceptions
during "Operation Desert Storm".  As Saddam Hussain
was painted as a deamon, President Bush's popularity
rateing soared to saintly hights.  The Movie was portraying
life from the point of veiw of the Lakotas.  It would be
natural for the Lakotas to view groups of people as "bums" or
worse if those groups of people were committing acts
of violence against the Lakota people.

Bradley Olson
bolson@clemson.clemson.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: <PSUVM.PSU.EDU!BLD110>
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:41:00 GMT

Original-Sender: <PSUVM.PSU.EDU!BLD110>

Hi - I'm a new subscriber so if what I say already has been said please
excuse it.  It seems to me that you are all missing the point, and that makes
me wonder if you understand what it is like to lose your culture.  Native
American is an important designation because it validates the place the Native
Americans have in the history of this land.  When you talk of all of us living
in harmony, I know that your heart is in the right place, but what you are
saying is basically the same argument given by the people who took the children
from the people on the reservations to educate them into "society" so that
they could be assimulated into the general population.  This was to the people
who did it, the highest form of acceptance.  Unforturnately for the Native
American population it nearly robbed them of their culture.

We are now learning what a rich and spiritually connected culture the people
of North America had when the Europeans came to this land.  There is much that
we can learn, and it is only because the Elders have managed to keep some of
it alive that we can learn from them now.

We can only live in love and harmony when we learn to value the differences and
honor each other for the people we are, not for how much we are alike.
                        Peace - Betty Lee Dowlin
From: GRS03109@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (*GRS9999102)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: POW WOWS
Date: 12 Jan 1993 01:49:17 GMT
Organization: APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: alf.appstate.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Please send me any information about upcoming powwows, or else send
me information about any good ones that you have attended.  I really
enjoy going to them and participating and talking to other people
about them.
From: anon.550@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: PGP2.1-for-Native-American-Rights-Groups
Date: 10 Jan 1993 09:32:48 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
Reply-To: anon.550@pax.tpa.com.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au


 PGP 2.1 recentl posted worldwide to alt.sources
should be looked at very closely by Native American
groups using email for coordination and communication.
Email monitoring is rather easy for the Federal Government and
the BIA to accomplish and is totally prevented by Pretty Good Privacy
Versions are available for Unix, Next, MS-DOS MA(soon) and Amiga.
Pretty Good Privacy 2.1 is an RSA/IDEA Hybrid Public key
Cipher program that allows military grade security of email
while in transit. PGP encloses your private email in
a amathmetical anology of a tamperproof envelope.
Additional improvements to mailers including the
anonymous remailer this article is coming from 
provide for totally anonymous posting of email and Netnews.
Use the following command to locate pgp on a site near you.

    archie -s pgp


    go in peace
    jensen

--
** Anonymity & Privacy by PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) **

anon.admin@pax.tpa.com.au (a human)   anon.info@pax.tpa.com.au    (for help)
anon.ping@pax.tpa.com.au  (get alias) anon.key@pax.tpa.com.au     (register key)
anon.###@pax.tpa.com.au   (reply)     anon.post.grp@pax.tpa.com.au (post to grp)
anon.list@pax.tpa.com.au  (to mailing list about anonymous mailers)
anon.subscribe@pax.tpa.com.au         anon.unsubscribe@pax.tpa.com.au

For dialup Unix access phone +61-8-235-9010 - online registration.
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: AI in Clintons Cabinet
Date: 8 Jan 1993 20:31 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <19930107.144629.KMACKAY@SJSUVM1>, <CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu!SJSUVM1.BITNET!KMACKAY> writes...
>Original-Sender: <CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu!SJSUVM1.BITNET!KMACKAY>
> 
>From: Ken MAcKAy
> 
> 
>>I think that it is sad that a position is filled based on
>>sex or race as opposed to performance and capability...I
>>believe that positions should be filled on the basis of
>>qualifications not because the position has to represent diverse America.
> 
> These are noble sentiments.   However a quick look at
> American history or present statistics indicate that the
> reverse has been true since the country was founded, if not
> longer.  When I was in college it was no secret that there
> were quotas on the number of Jews admitted to Medical
> School, especially because they were qualified.  Women in
> academe and industry earn less than their male
> counterparts.  African-Americans can't get mortgage loans
> even if qualified.  The glass ceiling is still with us.
> The point is that women and people of color were excluded
>-and continue to be excluded- on the basis of gender or
> color.  If positive attempts are made to redress this, it
> is not a sad situation.:
> 

How can you consider it a positive step when someone that is not
qualified is given appointment, contract, promotion, etc all because
they are "female" or "minority"?  What we are saying is that neither
are good; that things should be awarded based solely on qualifications.
And we are not talking about those qualifications which rest on race,
gender, religious or sexual affiliation.

If persons x, y, and z are all qualified for the job, then the determining
factor should be "who is BEST qualified" not "who meets the quota" nor
"who fits in with the established norm".

Tammy the colorless-androgynous-and-otherwise wanna-be

Do not judge me by the color of my skin, nor my genetalia, nor what kind of
genetalia meets mine, nor my views of the world or diety, nor my age, nor
size, nor any other part of me.

Judge me only by my actions and the actions that I am capable of doing.

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Proposed 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date:  7 Jan 93 22:29:30 GMT

warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:

>Hello Mike,

>  Perhaps you could use the word "aboriginal" instead of "native"
>in the text of the charter.  Otherwise, I am afraid that you
>will provoke more complaints about "who is a native".
>--
>Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
>                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.

Hello Ken,

That is a very good point. On the other hand, we might keep the word
native in there sometimes because it is, after all, the name of the
group.  In other words, intermix the two words "native" and
"aborginal" so everyone knows what we mean by "native."

What do you think?

Mike
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!iamok.enet.dec.com!"iamok: :gentile"
Subject: RE: American Indians in Clinton cabinet?
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:10:00 GMT

Original-Sender: iamok.enet.dec.com!"iamok::gentile"

I don't think there is one in the cabinet but native leaders have been
heavily involved in the transition team. Clinton's team has sought out and
invited and listened to these leaders. These include Zah from the Navajo Nation
and Mankiller from the Cherokee Nation (sorry abou the last names only
but I'm not sure how to spell their first names). For more information on this
see the latest issues of the Lakota Time (Indian Coutry Today?). I personally
believe your statements to be false. I think he has involved people from
Native Nations in a bigger way than any President in a long, long time as well
as many others from other backgrounds. A good first step.

Sam

Xref: sparky alt.native:1601 news.groups:25122
From: wurfa8v@nerix.nerdc.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups
Subject: Re: Proposed 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Keywords: native, new newsgroup
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:23:42 GMT
Followup-To: alt.native
Organization: State University System of Florida

Sounds great to me.

Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                    waddell@firnvx.firn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Dana Numkena <asuvm.inre.asu.edu!ASDMN>
Subject: Re: Question of Nativity
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:18:57 GMT

Original-Sender: Dana Numkena <asuvm.inre.asu.edu!ASDMN>

Hello,
     I use Native terms interchangeably depending on where I am.  If I
am on a reservation, Indian or In'din works fine.  In certain colleges,
American Indian is used, and in others Native American is the common
word.  If I am in East Coast, American Indian or Native American seem to
work.  If I am in Japan, American Indian-jin sometimes works; if not,
Dances-With-Wolves always works.  Aboriginal is a rare term.
     I am not a person whose politically correct and neither will I
attempt to establish the correct term on anybody.  Terms seem to be
regional.  I would inform an ignorant person about the known terms, and
leave it up to that person to choose which term to use.
    However, if I had to choose an appropriate term I would choose
Native American.  First, Indian is a misnomer if describing a Native
American.  Within the past millennium, Indians in the states were not
related to Indians from India.  The term was erroneously created by
Columbus, and the majority accepted his error.  I don't think Germans
like to be called Russians, and vice versa.
     American Indian could mean that an Indian, whose family is from
India, is from the U.S. not from India in the view of mainland Indians.
Somewhat along the lines as British Indians, German Indians, and even
Mexican Indians.  I know that this is hardly ever the case in the states.
However, most Native Americans accept the term American Indian.
     Aboriginals seems to imply that Natives were never or hardly ever
influenced by Western civilization.  When I think of aboriginals, I
think of a group of people whose culture has changed little even in the
presence of Western civilization.  Native Americans have been
significantly influenced.
     Native Americans imply that a person's ancestors came from America.
When I hear Chinese American, I think of an American-born person whose
parents came from China.  When I hear Indian American, I think of an
American-born person whose parents came from India.  When I think of
Native American, I think of an American-born person whose parents came
from Nativia...Just joking.  If the term Native American isn't used,
most ignorant people will de-emphasize the fact that natives, or
aboriginals, existed prior to Western influence.  Or that nobody came
before the Spaniards in Central America or before the British in eastern
United States.
     Nonetheless, I don't dwell on this issue seriously, and don't care
how I am classified.  So, my views are subject to modification.
However, most importantly, people should realize that aboriginals did exist
prior to the Western conquest.

Dana Numkena
Internet: asdmn@asuvm.inre.asu.edu
Bitnet:   asdmn@asuacad

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Patrick Maun <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!tamvm1.tamu.edu!AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>
Subject: RE: Northern Exposure
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:54:05 GMT

Original-Sender: Patrick Maun <AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT!R5321GAB>

Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe> Writes:

>I think one of the best steps anyone can take to preserve their
>own culture, not to mention consciousness of self and others,
>is to turn off or throw out the TV set. It is a powerful medium that
>displaces what is real in one's own life with what is unreal, a
>replacement of the vital with the trivial, of relevant information
>with disinformation.


    I haven't replied sooner due to the holidays. TV, video etc aren't just
going to go away. You can't force your kids not to watch it. As the saying
goes; fight fire with fire. The fire I mean is desktop video. I believe in
using the media to spread ones culture. Minorities need to start
producing their own video material. Once the youth are able to view their
culture and language on the TV as opposed to the dominant culture of
the area, they will feel more comfortable with their culture and language.
One comparison is the use of Welsh and Irish. Irish speakers have almost
no Irish language TV. Kids grow up surrounded by English. Welsh
speakers have their own TV channel, since implemented the speakers of
Welsh has risen. I really don't think you can make MTV go away. Instead
of wasting energy trying to do so, spend some of that energy creating
media for minorities. One possibility is that of cable access television.
Cable access are channels set aside for the viewing public (this is only in
the U.S. as far as I know). Anyone can go in with a tape (depending on
material of course) and have it broadcast. Cable access centers are
found in cities as opposed to out on tribal reservations which is a bit of a
problem. One solution to this is to produce the video pieces at schools
and community centers. Desktop video is not as expensive as it might
seem. High quality videos can be made using most modern computers
found in many schools (DOS, Macintosh), and home video equipment.
Another solution is to install small broadcasters on reservations. This is a
more expensive solution, but not impossible. I don't think the problem is
one of getting school kids and interested people involved in making
videos. It is a problem of getting the equipment to the people, and where
there is already equipment, setting it up for video production. So, time to
go out and look for cash. I am of course simplifying, but I am an optimist
as far as raising money is concerned. How is the situation in Canada and
Mexico as far as cable access is concerned?

   I am sorry if this is all a bit confusing. If anyone has questions ask away.
I have plenty to say about media and like to blab on about it. I hope this
raises some discussion.

Patrick Maun


Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Steve Smith <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!SIVM.SI.EDU!SECSI003>
Subject: Question of Nativity
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:47:40 GMT

Original-Sender: Steve Smith <SIVM.SI.EDU!SECSI003>

From: Steve Smith
      Institutional Studies Office

Intersting point and proposition...I can't wait to see the responses. For
myself, I haven't thought my response through, but I'll write some intitial
reactions...
It seems a matter of time as to whether or not one is called a native. Asians,
African Americans, and Euro-Americans can all trace themselves back to another
continent much more recently than can we. 40,000 years ago (which I believe is
now the earliest date recognized as our having been in this hemisphere) all
of the aforementioned would be in their respective continents as indicated by
the prefixes.

To look at it another way, are 2nd generation Turks in London considered
British? Are 3rd generation Ghanans in Paris considered French? I don't think
so, at least not when I was in those cities. How long before they would be?
And how long would their ancestors have to have lived in England or France for
their Turkish or Ghanan prior residence (not origin) to be forgotten, or to
not matter?

Most people in this hemisphere consider themselves "Americans", but most can
also go farther than that. A relatively short 500 years ago would give them
a different identity, and even 10,000 years ago would find most Europeans
in Europe, most Africans in Africa, most Asians in Asia, amd most of us here.
I think if people are going to identity themselves with an ancestry that was
largely the same from 10,000-500 years ago, why not us? We're about as native
a human group to this hemisphere as you can get. Would we lose that identity
if we were en masse shipped to Europe, Africa, or Asia and lived there for
many generations? After a couple hundred years in that situation could/would
we call ourselves Native Europeans? Native Africans? Native Asians? And what
would the "original" Europeans, Africans, and Asians think if we did?

If you want to refer to us as Siberian Americans, than I think that everyone
in this hemisphere ought to go back 40,000+ years and use their residence at
that point for themselves.

I know these dates aren't strict, but that's the kind of problem you run into
in trying to select another name.

Like I said, I haven't thought this all the way through, but that's my
intitial reaction. I'm looking forward to reading others...
                                        Smithsonian Steve Smith

---> Show that the definition of a nonrandomized monotone
decision rule is consistent with the definition of a
randomized monotone decision rule. Or is it????

Newsgroups: alt.native