From: JFRAWLEY@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Judy Thomas Frawley)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 12:23:40 EST

In article <LOWRY.92Nov2103817@rotor.watson.ibm.com>
lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:
 
>
>In article <24944@optima.cs.arizona.edu> shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
> > In article <92306.133552CLH7@psuvm.psu.edu> CLH7@psuvm.psu.edu (Chris Himes) writes:
> > >I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with
> > >real rebelliousness
> >
> > I wonder if the "experts" on the program have kids.  If not,
> > they're not any better informed than you are.
>
>This is an extremely appealing and yet totally foolish stand.  You
>don't have to have kids to study statistical correlations between
>parenting practices and behavioral patterns in the children.  You
>don't have to have kids to be able to interview the kids and the
>parents, as well as the same kids years later to get a measure of
>things like self-esteem, outlook on life, etc. and look for
>correlations with child-rearing practices.  In general, you don't have
>to have experienced a particular situation first-hand to be able to
>study those who have and become knowledgeable about it.  In fact,
>first-hand experience can often color perceptions so as to inhibit
>effective study.  And by claiming that the original poster (and I) are
>not well-informed on the issue of disciplining rebellious children,
>just because we haven't yet experienced it, is absurd.  There's such a
>thing as accumulating the collective experience of generations of
>society, analyzing it to see what works and what doesn't, and then
>spreading that knowledge in advance so each new parent doesn't have to
>go in blind.  That's what the experts devote their career to!  They do
>something valuable!
>
> >   The scene that was most disturbing, and
> > >most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come
> > >to him for their spanking.  The girls cowered a few feet away,
> > >they wanted to obey but were scared of their father.
> >
> > This was the high point of the show for me.  Those girls weren't
> > afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking.  IMHO
> > this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point where
> > fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.  That is the
> > point of spanking -- to reach the point that you don't need to
> > because the children mind.
>
>spanking worked!"  Well of course it kept her in bed that time.  Fear
>tends to paralyze people, children and adults alike.  But how
>effective was that aspect of the discipline in terms of raising a
>well-adjusted child who will feel good about life and will treat
>people with dignity and respect?  The experts that you so readily
>dismiss are apparently in nearly universal agreement that spanking not
>only does not contribute to this long-term goal, but in fact
>undermines it.
>
> > I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
> > forever, and you have to instill values eventually.  Between
> > the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
> > behaves properly, just that she does.  Too much of our social
> > deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
> > childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
>
>Maybe during the in-between years we should just keep our kids chained
>to their beds.  Then they won't have any opportunity to misbehave, and
>by your measure we'll be effective parents.  I know this is stretching
>your point beyond what you could possibly have had in mind (at least I
>*hope* it is), but your statement that you don't care why the child
>behaves properly is, to me, outrageous.  The ends do not justify the
>means in a case like this, where the means can potentially cause
>terrible side-effects.
>
> > I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
> > and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life.  For some kids
> > it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
> > much better.  Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
> > kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
>
>Yes, this is the primary goal for parents... that their kids not be
>brats.  The happiness of the child, and the satisfaction they get from
>life, are secondary concerns.  Just make sure the parents' job isn't
>any more difficult than it has to be during the time they're
>responsible.  After that, the child (now an adult) can deal with
>their own miserable life, and the parents will be off the hook.
>
Andy Lowry
 
I deleted a bunch of text.  Andy, I agree with you and Paulette(?).
 
My mother spanked us some, but I think the one spanking I *do* remember
took place when I was around 11.
 
My brother had not relayed a message to my parents that I was
at my friends' house and would need a ride home.  My parents, not
knowing where I was, went into a panick trying to find me.
When I finally called home again wondering where my ride was,
my parents were furious at *me*.
 
They would not listen to anything about my brother not leaving
them a message (I was 11; he was 18).  They were furious with
me for not telling them where I was, although I had actually
told my brother.  So, my father literally took me over his
knee in the bedroom attached to the dining room while the
rest of my family watched.  It was one of the most humiliating
experiences of my life.  It taught me several valuable lessons
some immediate and some that I have just figured out recently.
 
 
1.  My brother - the only boy among four sisters, was just that,
    a boy, who did not have the same responsibility to my parents
    that the girls did (If my sister had not given them a message,
    they would have been in trouble, too).
2.  I hated my brother for a very long time
3.  My parents were unfair and unfeeling because they were not
    willing to listen to me
4.  I did learn to tell them where I was, but out of fear, not
    out of respect.
 
I do not usually hit my daughter.  I will admit that there have
been two instances where I spanked her; I have since learned my
boiling point, and will walk away from a situation to cool down
and then come back to it.
 
Hannah is four and a half and is usually very well behaved.  She was
having serious problems with her behaviour recently that I
did not understand.  We talked about what was going on in
day care and what might be causing some of the problems.
Then, about a week and a half after the first incident, she
complained of a sore throat and itchy ear.  She had strep
throat and an ear infection.  When she is sick, she is miserable.
I have begun to learn that with *her* there is a definite corrolation
between her behaviour and how well she is feeling.  That is Hannah,
that may not be other children.  However, by learning about my
child and not simply punishing her for the incident, I feel that
she and I are both better off.
 
I do not know if her father spanks her as we do not live together,
but I suspect not.  Yes, I believe children need to learn values,
but I don't think that spanking teaches values.  I think that
talking things out, learning *why* our children are behaving
the way they are, and talking *with* them teaches them values.
 
I have a friend who started hitting her daughter very early
on in life. She got a babysitter who was in my opinion, violent
and bragged at this child's birthday party how she (the babysitter)
had hit Andrea so hard as to split Andrea's lip.  I think that is
sick and disgusting.  Andrea learned to potty train by fear when
she was not even two years old because her mother was sick of
changing diapers.  Andrea got whacked in the mouth by her
mother and the babysitter for doing normal child things, like
saying silly words and blowing bubbles.  I have broken ties
with this woman because I simply could not take watching
this little girl learning to fear her mother (her father
is not in the picture) and her babysitter; two of the
most important people in her life at the time.
 
We can carry spanking to extremes.  I do not *want* to hit my
child but I am not infallible.  I have spanked her, but I felt
such an incredible amount of guilt that I knew I had to find a
way to deal with my anger and what was triggering it rather
than continuing the spanking.  Hannah and I are learning
together.  She is a wonderful child, and I think that the
two spankings I administered in her four years will not
harm her because I have moved beyond that.    I do not expect
complete and total obedience from her.
 
Judy
Hannah's Mama.
Newsgroups: misc.kids