From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric)
Subject: Re: "Democracy" & "Israel" are Axonyms.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:33:05 GMT

In article <2815@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1992Apr11.182158.19922@midway.uchicago.edu> gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <Apr.9.22.22.29.1992.3790@paul.rutgers.edu>, marwan@paul.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>>>
>>>Some pro-Israeli people on this net continuously brag about the 
>>>following Issues:
>>>  1) Israel is one of the most democratic "Democracy".
>>>  2) Israel treats palestinians "nicely" ... In fact some bozo even
>>>     suggested that Palestinians are "more happy" under the Israeli
>>>     occupation that they have ever been.
>>>  3) Condemn any form of predgedism against them by using the term
>>>     "Anti-semitism" and forget how much there hearts could be filled
>>>     with hatred to other people (e.g. Palestinians).
>
>Good points Marwan.
>
>>People are claiming that the Arabs in Israel are living under democracy,
>>and that the Israeli government functions as a democracy.
>
>Leon.  Define democracy.  Define how "the Israeli government functions as
>a democracy".  Hey, even in Syria there are elections.  But we know how
>they are forced.  So, what other ways does the Israeli government function
>in view of democracy?  Why doesn't it have a constitution if it is a
>'democracy'?

As has already been pointed out, the same comment could be made about
Great Britain.  In any case, Israel *does* have what can properly be
called a "proto-constitution", the Basic Law.  These take a 2/3 majority
to repeal or approve, as do Amendments or Articles to a Constitution and
are legally designed to be part of the eventual Israeli Constitution.

>>Now, why don't you tell the story of how when the roof collapses in
>>Jerusalem, Arabs and Jews worked together to rescue people, wheras
>>Arab children threw stones at the rescuers.  Who hates who?
>
>And the store was Arab owned.  If it were Jewish owned I am sure the
>government would say it was the work of 'terrorists' and retaliate against
>many Palestinians by blowing up a few 'suspects'' homes and imprison
>them under false charges.  So I am sure that the local authorities tried to
>do everything in their power to see to it that they wouldn't be accused of
>the same thing.  And to the world - 'gee, how gracious we are to our fellow
>terrorist Arabs'.

I would do nothing of the sort, and the investigatory practices of the
IDF are a bit better than this.

>>No one is denying that some Israeli Jews hate Arabs or mistreat Arabs.
>
>But that is okay, right?  It is only unacceptable when Palestinian Arabs
>fight for their freedom and justice, right Leon?

No, it is not ok.

>>The question is "How is the behavior looked upon by the rest of Israel?"
>>In many cases, Jews who mistreat or kill Arabs are condemned and punished
>>by Israel.
>
>Tell us another.  What about Ami Popov?  We never heard whatever happened
>to him.  But we see the paralyzed Sheikh Ahmad et al in prison.  Don't act
>like your govt. is so innocent.

You mean Ami Poper.  As has been pointed out on the net, he's currently
serving a rather long sentence in prison.

>>  But I don't see the opposite happening.  The only case of
>>any Arab being punished and/or condemned for actions against a Jew is
>>the case of the Egyptian soldier who shot Israeli tourists in the Sinai.
>
>Haahaahaa what a joke!  The only case?  Give me a break!!  This is the
>only case you must have read, which shows how well read you are and keep up
>on current events!
>
>>The question is not whether some Israelis hate Arabs.  The question is
>>whether Israel as a whole should be condemned for the actions of a few.
>
>"The actions of a few"?  Common - get real.  Members of the Mossad are
>citizens of Israel - so who is responsible for their actions?  Who is
>responsible for the indoctrination in Israel public schools that is
>permiated in every Israeli mind (except those who do not subscribe to that
>b.s.)?  You know what I am talking about; 'those dirty Arab terrorists
>against poor little helpless Eretz Israel' stuff.  What 'democratic'
>nation allows its citizens to openly shoot to kill its minorities with all
>legal concessions available?
>
>>But the hatred of Jewish Israelis by Arab governments and groups is
>>official policy in many places, so those who do violence against Jews
>>are not exception, but are the rule.
>
>"In many places"?  Where?  Zululand?  Stop this propoganda, Leon.
>
>>Kahana is not mainstream anything.
>
>Really?  His son openly declared, here in the U.S., his father's revenge
>against the Arab-American man accused of the murder.  His followers are
>rampant here in the U.S. (as Ron once said, "Oy Gewalt").

Rampant?  Probably less than 1% of American Jews support his program.

>>And when they mention Sabra and Chatilla, they don't mention that almost 
>>10% of the Jewish Israeli population protested afterwards and demanded an
>>investigation. 
>
>We never heard that.  How decent of them.  Did they also take up a collection
>for the families of the deceased?  Or are they just forgotten - 'too bad for
>them - but as long as we are alive, that is all that matters'?

And a complete investigation was launched, resulting in demotions and
firing of several officers (most notably, Gen. Rafael Eitan was
dismissed from the IDF and then-DM Ariel Sharon was demoted to the
position of Minister Without Portfolio).

>>(Mapai, Ratz, and CRM) which favors handing back the territories probably 
>>will get 10% in the elections.
>
>And Perez was supposed to support Palestinian talks with Israel 3 years ago.
>What happened to him?  That schmuck Shamir was elected.
>
>>Has there been any public pressure or demonstration in any Arab country
>>for better treatment of Jews or better relations to Israel?
>
>We cannot even publically speak out against the horrors against the Muslim
>masses that occurred in almost every Arab country, including Syria, Iraq,
>Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, etc.
> 
>>Have they those who murder Jews been punished?  Or are they called
>>heroes?
>
>Give us accounts of Jews who have been murdered for being Jewish in any
>Arab country.  I am afraid that you need to realize that the Muslims are
>the first to be prosecuted and given worse treatment under Arab governments
>before your fellow Jews are.  Please stop this conspiracy theory of Arabs
>against Jews.  Or is that what you have been brought up to believe?

Anisa, that's just not true.  For example, Syria has a separate branch
of its secret police, the Mukhabarat, devoted *just* to tracking Jews'
movements.  Jews can't hold most jobs in Syria, in addition (and the
list is much longer...)


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast