From: jpg@eldom.com
Subject: Re: Let's end this dual-sided flame war!
Reply-To: nobody
Organization: Eldom Services, Inc.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:43:09 GMT

cvafy006@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:

>To all those who are misunderstood (both "gay/lesbian" and "straight"):
>
>	Believe it or not, I decided to search this newsgroup not because
>I decided to do some "gay bashing", but because I wanted so see where our
>nation's views on homosexuality are. 
>
Perhaps a better place for you to go is to the library to review
local, state, and federal laws.  You should also get on some mailing
lists of Pat Robertson, The Christian Coalition, Human Rights
Campaign, ACLU, and any other groups that are trying to affect
legislation.  You should also contact your government officials to
put an end to this sort of discrimination.

> As, I myself am straight (hetrosexual),
>I don't condone what homosexuals do.  I personally find the idea of a man
>SEXUALLY attracted to another man, or for that matter. a woman SEXUALLY
>attracted to another woman to be disgusting...it's not "natural".  I mean let's
>
Thank you for your qualification.  In all your infinite fairness,
you wouldn't want anyone to mistake you for one of those people.

>face it, how manymales get charged with sexual harrassment of another male...
>and how many females get charged with sexual harrassment of another female?  
>
Probably a different amount than your research has indicated.

>Although I don't condone the lifestyle of a homosexual, I cannot say that
>a homosexual can't practice his/her lifestyle.  However, there has to be
>
Well, thank you for your permission (which I guess you believe is
yours to grant).

>some way of sorting this mess out.  I'll go ahead and try to do that...
>and to be fair, I'll START with the heterosexuals and THEN go to the
>homosexuals.  Be warned...you will both be criticized...for both of you need
>
Why wouldn't it be fair the other way around?

>	Hetrosexuals -- most of you will at some time become attracted to
>a member of the opposite sex.  You are following the "natural" order of
>nature.  You can follow the sexual cycle (if you choose to) and maybe will
>have get married.  Heck, you might even want to have children.  Remember this:
>you were given the freedom of choice, and you CHOSE to live this lifestyle
>(like I chose to live as a hetrosexual), but that does not mean that others
>don't have a different choice.
>
Please define lifestyle.

>don't advocate homosexuality, if you were tried in a court where I was a judge
>and I tried you for vandalism -- you would have to pay for all the damage.  If
>I tried you for assault -- you'd get jail time.  If I tried you for killing
>
Would you write your district judge, your state's judicial board,
and your congress persons and let them know this feeling?  It would
do more good to your cause than just saying your opinion here.

>If you wish for the homosexuals to get along with you...
>you must do what this country has just learned to do...COMPROMISE! 
>
But what if I don't want for them to get along with me?  What if I just want
for them to disappear?  What if I think anti-gay laws serve us
proud?  Tell me in your fair wisdom, what is my next step?

>Haven't you
>learned by now from our history that an attempt to dominate people causes a
>revolution???
>
Recent history shows me that I can just fire homosexuals from their
jobs because of the sex of the people that they love to get rid of
them and then pass laws that says they can't contest this decision
that I've made.

>	For you who are gay or lesbian...now it's your turn to listen up!  I
>am a Roman Catholic, which is why I find your lifestyle disgusting.  However, 
>
Now, wait.  You give us all this garbage that is so wize and
uncontestible.  You aren't going to get by this easy as a reasoning.
I too am Roman Catholic and so is my family and many friends and
I and they do not have this view that you do.  Our religion should
be an inspiration to love and to learn to respect.  Now give us your
real reason for discust.

>in all fairness, I will not deny you the right to live as you wish.  You
>have the freedom to hold hands in public if you want to, kiss each other if you
>want to, and otherwise function as every citizen can.  However, there are
>
Once again, thank your for assuming that it's your position to grant
your permission.

>certain conditions that you too must adhere too.  You CHOSE to be homosexual
>(whether or not it's medical or not is not 100% proven yet...), but at the same
>time, let the others live as they want to also.

>	You too have the freedom of speech.  If irate hetrosexuals bash you
>verbally, respond with a counter verbal bashing!  If you feel you are wronged,
>seek counsel and justice.
>
What I live in Colorado?  What if Judge Hampton in Dallas is
deciding the case?  What if anyone involved doesn't know that you've
given your permission for them to behave in a rational way?

>	You often complain that a movie or sit-com doesn't give enough
>recognition to homosexuals...but do they have to?  Are you paying for the
>airtime...or are they?  I'm sure that if you wanted to produce a show and show
>it, they would let you...if not, then there's always legal action.
>
Ummm, yes we all pay for the air time.  If you're so sure of what
you say, you should investigate further to see how wrong you are.
You should be aware that currently, legal action does no good in
many places.  Legislation is being attempted to deny even making a
legal claim.  If you truly want to help your claimed cause, join in
the effort to stop this kind of legislation.

>	Don't call those who are uncomfortable about your presence ignorant.
>They know about your lifestyle, and that "scares" some of them.  
>
Apparently they don't know about the lifestyle otherwise they
probably wouldn't call it a "lifestyle".  Most heterosexuals lives
probably aren't any different than homosexuals lives.  They go to
work, they come home, they have dinner, they take care of their
homes, etc.  Is that "scary"?  The part that should "scare" is the
legality of denying employment and housing, the passage of laws
criminalizing love between people.

>Don't slam 
>them fortheir discomfort, give them time to adapt.  Remember, white people 
>are just beginning to START feeling comfortable around SELECT black people.  
>It takes time to adapt...don't rush things...or you'll get more heat from the 
>hate groups than you'll want.  Sure, there's legal action...but if your 
>movements piss off the presiding judge...you've lost the case before you 
>started.  It's unfair, but people aren't cyborgs...they are human -- and 
>although some are open-minded, others are closed-minded or corrupt!
>
How much time is needed to adapt?  Not in your lifetime?  You bring
up an interesting point about that judge that might get pissed off.
The situation today is that judges are allowed to give lighter
sentences to crimes against homosexuals.  Would you be willing to
help put this to an end?

>	I have to give a big thumbs down on the "gays in the military" issue.
>A unit has to function as a unit...and if someone is prejudiced against or
>uncomfortable with a person in the unit...the unit can die.  Remember, a chain
>is as strong as it weakest link.  Maybe after a while the military will accept
>homosexuals...but once again, change can't happen overnight...give it time.
>
Once again, how much time?  Why have efforts to prepare to
incorporate all qualified people been put on hold?  Because people
keep saying to wait?  Start educating your military aquaintances
now.  Write to your congress persons.

>	Also, if you want to get married or have kids via artifical methods...
>so be it.  The problem is that some of you want press.  
>
No.  The problem is that marriage is not legal in the USA.  Since
when does a lesbian HAVE to have a child by artificial methods?  Do
you deny her her own reproductive freedom?  Legislation is attempted
or passed to deny families to homosexuals.  Read the Repulican
Platform for this year to see what they think about homosexuals and
children.

>I don't see the news
>covering marriages of hetrosexuals (other than celebrities), so why should you
>
You are really out of touch.  Go to the weddings/announcement section
of the newspaper (yes, both very small and very large newspapers
have them).  I can't believe that someone who is making such an all-out
effort to stop misunderstanding is not aware of this.

>be any different.  Remember, with equal rights comes equal priveleges, equal
>responsibilites, and compromise.  If you want your way, go for it.  If you fail
>than seek justice.  
>
You keep saying to seek justice.  People are trying to seek justice.
This makes publicity which seems like the publicity that you don't
want to hear about.  Legal justice is not as easy as you think it
is.  You can pretend that you are homosexual and then try to get
justice.  Then you may be able to talk more on the subject.
Remember that legislation already exists that prohibits seeking
justice in the first place.

>Just don't try to stir up trouble over the whole nation for
>a failed wedding.  Find another church.  Failing that, I really can't help you
>too much.  All I can suggest is to try to go with the flow and change will
>come.  Remember, a lot of couples have sexual relationships without being 
>marriwed anyway.  While that in itself is another moral issue, it is one that
>is less heated than this one!  Should you choose to make yourself stand out,
>than you are accepting all recognition coming your way...both praise and
>hate/dissent.
>
How long must people go with the flow and wait for change?  Don't
you think that it has to start somewhere?  Perhaps it has to start
somewhere as long as you don't have to see it.  You point out about
having sexual relationships without being married.  Is homosexuality
only about sex?  If it is, then why ban everything else?  There are
reasons for wanting a legal marriage.  There are "special rights"
along with a legal marriage.  Can a man have time off from work when
his husband's mother dies?  Will a woman's health insurance cover
her and her wife's daughter's broken leg?  Can that woman adopt
their daughter if her wife is the natural mother?  Is a man
automatically legal heir to his husband's estate?  Even if he has
been willed all, why can this be invalidated because of sexuality?
Why should anyone want to stand out--so you don't have to see it?

>	I have tried to discard my religious bias in analyzing both side of the
>homosexual vs. hetrosexual issue.  I myself have stated that I find
>homosexuality to be disgusting.  Please note:  that is part of my freedom of
>speech...flame me as you wish, but I don't have to change my view unless I want
>
I already doubt your knowledge of your religion so it wouldn't be
very credible to use it.  Besides, you're free to practice your
religion whatever it might be.  Please exercise your free speech in
a practical manner and help resolve injustice to all.  Continue to
put your personal discusts aside to correct what is wrong in your
own life, with your friends, with your legislators, with your
clergy, etc.  Don't change your views just because someone says
(such as you've been granting permission for various things in your
posting) but because it is the right thing.

>to.  I have also told the hetrosexuals to, essentially, not disgrace the
>nation.  People have freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  
>Just because you don't LIKE something does mean that that something a person 
>believes in doesn't deserve the same freedom!
Remember to tell your friends and family this face to face if they
should ever say or do something that might indicate that their
biased against homosexuals or heterosexuals.  Since you graced us
with the announcement of your sexuality (maybe you could take out a
newspaper ad), perhaps you could pretend that you're homosexual and
announce this to your friends, family, husband, wife, children and
see if you can get them to throw away their misconceptions.

>If something appears to infringe 
>upon one of your rights, seek legal action.  I am aware of bias in the 
>courts...so then appeal!  This goes for BOTH SIDES!
>
But that is being done.  You don't realize that it's not as easy as
you say.  When it becomes public, you apparently don't like to hear
it.  Why are you dividing this up into sides anyway if you are so
open-minded?  What are the real differences?

>	Hopefully, from now on the two sexual orientations will work towards
>compromise and they will adapt to society.  Let's end this immature flame war,
>and in general -- whether for sexual orientation, political bias, or whatever:
>
Well, now that YOU have spoken I'm sure all will be better.  Why has
no one else in history ever done anything so wise as saying, "Can't
we all just get along?"  We all now go in your grace to pursue a
happy life.  Thank you.

>	 LET PEOPLE BE PEOPLE...IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, VOICE IT.  IF YOU HAVE A
>REASON TO BELIEVE THAT A FREEDOM HAS BEEN VIOLATED, SEEK LEGAL ACTION!  (JUST
>MAKE SURE THAT YOUR VOICE IS FOR A BONA FIDE CAUSE...NONE OF THIS NITPICK SHIT
>OR MAKING UP CLAIMS OR DISCRIMINATION [THAT GOES FOR BOTH SIDES!] TO GAIN AN
>UNFAIR "EDGE" ON THE OTHER SIDE.  ACCORDING TO RODNEY KING, "CAN'T WE ALL JUST
>GET ALONG?"  SIMPLY SAID, BUT RIGHT TO THE FACT.  LET'S WORK TOWARDS GETTING
>ALONG...THROUGH COMPROMISE AND VOCAL CONFLICT IF NECESSARY.  THAT'S WHAT MAKES
>THIS COUNTRY THE "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"!
>
Please define the unfair "edge" you are talking about?


Something interesting is that you are claiming to be posting this to
try to calm the conflict.  Why only post this to alt.politics.homosexuality?
Take you efforts where they can reach a larger number of people.
Take your efforts to your area "family values" organization that is
attempting to change the Constitution to deny the "freedom of life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" that you mentioned above.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.marrou