From: garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: [POL] Re: Reply to Giao Tien Vu
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:23:08 GMT
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computer


giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu) wrote:

>In article <1992Aug11.165222.2828@kpc.com> garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le) writes:
>
>deleted
>>  Remember Giao Tien Vu claimed that "No ideology can ever kill a population.
>>It's disaster that kills." That is another basis for qualifying him as a
>>"visionary and knowledgeable person".  How soon they forgot why they came here.
>Have not we seen how destructive and disastrous communism have been to this
>>world? What they did to the Vietnamese people by burying thousands of innocent
>>people alive in Te^'t Ma^.u Tha^n (Hue^'),killing approximately 50,000 people
>>by labeling these poor souls rich landlords ,imprisoning millions of people
>>in re_education camps under sub_human conditions when they took over in 1975
>>are truly horrifying and unforgiveable.Now tell me how "good" this communism
>>has been to VN.I certainly do not consider it an ideology anyway since it has
>>too many flaws,to say it is an ideology is indeed a misnomer.
>>  This is why I consider Giao Tien Vu one with a limited vision at best since
>>he does not realize how damaging communism has been to our homeland.
>
>I think that you totally missed the point (I don't claim to be a visionary,
>but I have to say this) by interpreting the statement "kill a population"
>literally as killing many people.  "Kill" is used here as "totally destroy and
>decimate."  Please don't also interpret "disaster" as the literal natural
>disaster.  The disaster that I used was the deterioration of human moral
>values and the cultural bind that kept a people together.

 Giao,you definitely get an A+ from me for using metaphors ... sigh.
Now please tell us some instances when deterioration of human moral values
had more disastrous consequence than communism has been to the world in the
post World War 2 era ? That is essentially your "revised" claim.
 Frankly,I haven't seen it.On the other hand,I believe the deterioration of
moral values is a result of communist rulings.Look at what happen in Sa`i
Go`n nowaday,all sorts of social ills exist such as rampant prostitution,
robberies,thefts and corruptions.These are the products of the VC regime.
After all,Communist results in poverty which subsequently results in the
deteriorations of moral values,cultural traditions and literacy.
>deleted
>>  As far as saying that it is hypocrisy when people presented their view
>>which supports lifting the embargo,I 'd like to take that back.IMHO,
>>they do love their country but their love perhaps is misguided.

>Thanks for the sensitive use of "perhaps."  Basically, both
>of us are discussing using the existing data, but our interpretations are
>very different.  The question about who is misguided will probably never
>be answered because life does not let us experiment.
 Everyone is born different.We should all learn to accept our differences.
Nevertheless,it is sensible differences within reasonable limit that are
tolerated.When difference is due to ignorance,silly stubborness,then it
should be criticized.
 Unlike Giao,I surely hope there will be an answer forthcoming regarding
the embargo.Let keep our hope that there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
>
>>>
>>>For example, your vision is really limited to think that the major of
>>>international aid and investment would be pocketed by govt. officials in VN.
>>>Do you really think that the international communities and foreign corporations
>>>are ignorant of the corruption situations in VN?  Don't you think that they
>>>would have proper plans to administer aids and/or to ensure that their
>>>investment be protected?   Embargo or not, no one is going to invest or
>>>give aids to a country if he knows he will be taken advantage of.
>>>
>>>Ta^y -Do^.c
>>
>>  Certainly foreign companies will know how to protect their investment,but
>>the ones they employed (the Vietnamese workers) will stand to benefit
>>very little at best since they have to bribe the gov't to get the job and
>>keep it.All their sweats and labors would result in something close to zilch.

>That's pure speculation.  How do you know that it would happen?  Most of the
>HO people I have talked to in the last few years have one common agreement:
>life has been better in the last few years.  And that was without lifting the
>embargo.

 On the contrary,most of the HO and ODP folks I have talked to definitely
think otherwise.There could have been more relaxing ruling for business
venture but it is just a disguise to foreign countries so that the embargo
would be lifted.How do we know if the VC gov't would not revert back to
their old selves once the sanction is ended.On the same basis,I can declare
your statement pure speculation.
 There is a saying that I have found to be absolutely truthful: "DO NOT LISTEN
TO WHAT THE COMMUNISTS SAY,JUST WATCH CLOSELY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE" or originally
in Vietnamese " Du+`ng nghe nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n no'i ma` hay~ nhi`n ky~
nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n la`m".I feel sorry that some people are gullible enough
to fall for commies trap.

>If you have read the news lately, the foreign governments are pressuring
>the Vietnamese government to fully implement the free market.  What does it
>mean?  It means that the employees can be free to work for any company that
>they want to.  Without going through the Vietnamese government, without
>paying the bribes that you're afraid of.  Foreign businesses are not
>stupid.  They know that unless they get the Vietnamese government off the
>backs of the workers, they would not get an efficient workforce.  They
>know that if the bribings continue, they will have to pay the bribes
>themselves.

Well,unless the level of corruption subsides considerably,there is not much
reason to do business in VN.All recent news,reports have indicated otherwise,
i.e gov't bribery has been increasing more and more as time goes on.These
corrupted individuals just want to make a killing while they are on power.

>>As far as international aid goes,with the bureacracy of VN,the international
>>organizations have little control over how it is going to be distributed.
>>We know too well who the boss is in VN,don't we?
>
>There's always problem initially.  Once the international organizations
>are established in Vietnam, good luck to any effort of the Vietnamese
>government to control the aids without having all the aids being
>withdrawn!

 How can organizations establish themselves when there exist so much
bureacracy and corruption? After all,Giao is a good theorist but
his way of implementation remains to be seen ?Similar to the infamous
communist Lenine,they are decent theorists but disastrously horrible
and bloody implementers ,except I have not seen much action from Mr.Giao
just his "loving " words.Until I see some demonstrations from Mr.Giao,
I prefer to remain skeptical.
>
>>  I really wanted to stop this thread but I can't help elaborating further!
>>Look at what happened in China as a good example.After all these years of
>>foreign aids and economic assistance,even being the most favorite trade
>>nation granted by the Bush administration,how is red China doing? How
>>democratic has it become?Tienamen (spelling ?) Square is the most eloquent
>>example of the state of democracy in China.Just a bloodbath of inspired
>>students and people whose wishes were really simple ,one lots of us overhere
>>have taken for granted ,namely democracy.
>>The thoughts of it make me cringe,but VN might as well have another
>>Tienamen Square in the future.I honestly hope that we will have a
>>better future than that,but as of now,the situation in VN seems
>>very pathetic at best.
>>

>But, you cannot deny that the living standard of the Chinese people inside
>China has improved markedly.  My main criticism of what happened at
>Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.  They
>forced the Chinese Communists into a corner.  Remember that Zhao Ziyang had
>to beg the students to stop demonstrating before things went too far?
>That scene was pitiful.  Here was the man who supposedly was the most
>powerful person in China almost in tears.  Chai Ling, a student leader,
>actually recalled that the more moderate students were ready to back down.
>Yet the radicals were pressing for even more pressure on the Chinese
>government.  Obviously, that was a mistake.  The end was a tragedy.  Zhao
>Ziyang lost his job.  Many students were killed.
>

 Please show me that "living standard of the Chinese people inside China has
improved markedly" is true.Do you know what the GDP per capita of China is?
Sure,before they had starved to death in one month,now they can sustain in
two or three.Giao,please do not tell me how you came to the above conclusion
since I find it rather insulting to the Chinese students who have been
freedom and democracy fighters.
 BTW,you sound more sympathetic to Zhao Ziyang than to the killed students.
You appear to think that the Chinese commies gov't was the victim rather
than the aggressor. Let me quote you again "My main criticism of what
happened at Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.
They forced the Chinese Communists into a corner."
 Remember that democracy and freedom can not be compromised!
>The Chinese government's action was drastic and shameful.  However,
>note that no government would allow something like that to happen.
>Sooner or later, the government would clamp down on the demonstration
>before it went out of control.  In Vietnam, the South Vietnamese soldiers
>fired upon the Buddhist crowd in 1965, killing hundreds of people.  In
>the USA, the police and national guard would come and arrest (not shoot
>with live bullets - with the exception of Kent State) the demonstrators.
>A more democratic government would change policies to reflect what the
>people want, but it will not allow a rebellion (which Tiananmen is).

 Here in democratic societies,no such thing would happen in the first place
since freedom and democracy are for real,so Giao 's premise is nonsense!
>I do hope that a Tiananmen would never happen in Vietnam.  We have had
>enough revolutions.  All revolutions turned out to be disappointments.
>It's time to try evolution for a change.

 What a statement! " All revolutions turned out to be disappointments."
Remember the American revolution against Britain for Independence,the
Vietnamese revolution against French rule !After all those sacrifices
Giao called them disappointments.We definitely can judge what kind of
character this gentleman Mr.Giao Tien Vu is from now on.
Or maybe he is just confused between revolution and communist "revolution"!
 IMO,they are not revolution for that matter since all they attempted
to gain have been the installments of their own authoritarian and
bloody governments.They don't qualify as revolution in my book,period.

>Giao


Best regards,

Garrick Quang Le

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Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are mine.
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