HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:26:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.224942.17141@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>
>It was the Macedonians i.e. the inhabitants of Macedonia, that wanted a
>separate state and fought hard for it;  the big powers were supporting the
>idea since it was the only thing that made sense,  the neighbors had different
>plans,  though.  The ethnic cleansing in Aegean Macedonia that followed the
>"feeding frenzy"  was nothing to be proud of.  If only Macedonia had oil,  or
>maybe gold in those times.
>
>Vasil Babamov


 Vasil, you are only one sided informed. Most of the people in Macedonia
 wanted to get rid of the Ottoman muslim-feudal control. There are thousands
 of personal letters writen by Macedonians to their relatives in Greece
 who were praying one day their liberation by Greece to happen. I'm sure
 the same documents exist for Bulgaro-Macedonians. The articles from all
 the ethnographic sources tell so to. 

 Now, that some warlords (like in Somalia) wanted to become famous in
 world history by becoming rulers of their own state, that's an other
 story. This is exactly what the big powers did in Arab lands and they
 established all the clan leaders as "Kings" and they created "states"
 like Kuwait, United Arab Emirates etc etc all the oil well-states
 for the geo-economic interests of the west (mostly Britain, France, US).

 There was no public referendum over what the macedonian habitants
 wanted; only the loud mouthpieces of the warloards. 

 And again; Read some information from that period; Not the brain-plugging
 Neo-Skopjian creativity. (Do you want me to copy the relevant part from
 the Harvard encyclopedia? :-))

 Gr
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.euro
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:21:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.055430.5311@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>>
>Yes,  Gregory,  they knew the official language of Greece was Greek,  just as
>the official language of the Ottoman empire was Turkish,  but their language,
>their names,  the toponyms,  and  the old church books did survive 500 yers
>of the "Ottoman yoke."  It took about five years of the enlightened Greek
>rule to destroy all that.  I really have hard time believing that you don't
>feel bad about it.


I didn't know that the Ottomans cultivated the Old Slavonic Language.
The only thing which survived the Ottomans was the isolated societies
"languages" made up of 2,000 words, unrecognizable by any
Old Slavonic scholar. As far as the books, I'm sorry but didn't
you have any replicas? Because the Ottomans had burned books and
books of Greek faith when they "didn't feel so good" with those 
dangerous Rums. Go to check how many churches survived the Kemal's
cleansing campaigns. The Old Slavonic books, during that period, probably had
as much political importance under the Ottomans as has the Incas holly books
in the US today (But Wilhelm Reich's books were burned down during
the 1950's; if you remember well).

What you consider "holly" today, because they tought you so in Skopjia,
doesn't mean that it was always so for most of the people.
By mixing values of today with those from before, you just reassure your
efforts for cheap populism. With populistic appeals though you
can't become a good politician; just a dangerous for the public
interests sophist.

The Skopjian language took a whole state to be established, defined,
enriched, enforced on the populace and start building literature. 

As far as the names you didn't answer me if you still keep the Ottoman
ones, because Greece did really restablished the names which the region
had before the Slavs invaded. If the Slavs slavisized the greek-Macedonians
certainly Greeks re-hellenized them back, starting in 1200 AD with the
Byzantine recupture of Macedonia.

In any case, do you consider the Old Bulgarian literature part of
the Skopjian cultural heritage? It's like the Americans considering
Shakespear as an American writer, right? (As you know the term
"Macedonian Literature" was unknown uptill our century...!


Gr
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10132 soc.culture.europe:10587
From: miballar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michael Ballard)
Subject: Re: THE CASE FOR MILAN PANIC
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 01:00:11 GMT


-- 
Don't just co863-WOBSmplain; orgPhone (415)aniz
Join the Wobblies.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:20:26 GMT

ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:

>>MACEDONIA: REALITY VERSUS HISTORY
>>The Melbourne Age, Editorial Opinion.
>>Tuesday 15 December 1992

>>Wilder Macedonian nationalists have not
>>helped matters by foolishly publishing maps showing expansion into
>>Greek territory.

> He means nationalists who form the largest party in Skopje. It is not just
> two-three lunatics (like Mr. Shopov) who have lost their minds.  We are
> talking about the largest party.

> Not to forget their flag.  Outrageous ...

Come on, no need to flame Sasa. I don't think he believes what is written in 
this article. I thanked him in the past for posting a similar article. I will
also do it now. 

He offers a very good service to the net by posting this article. 
First of all, it shows the validity of the Greek fears. Second, it 
shows to what extent the history can be fabricated to fit political 
agendas. Third, it makes us feel sorry for these people that have been
robbed from their cultural heritage to such an extend that they have to
fabricate impossible tales about their past. You do remember the other
fantastic claim posted a few months ago about all the slavic languages
are descentants of the macedonian language, don't you?

						 Bye,
						Yannis.

ps: Really, don't tell me you didn't have a good laugh reading Sasa's 
    article? 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10119 soc.culture.bulgaria:1934 soc.culture.greek:11586
From: vkb57@cas.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: What sort of History is this?
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:11:59 GMT
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio

In article <92346.045047PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu> <PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>  Andronikos Romanos writes:
>Vasil Babamov (vkb57@cas.org) copied an article from the "New
>Republic," Dec. 21,  under the newsgroup-title  GREK TAKEOUT
><Message-ID:1992Dec10.190539.23691@cas.org>.
>
>I will not comment of the one-sided analysis of the current situ-
>ation presented in the article. Yet, I thought that some excerpts
>would appear as extremely amusing to the netters  -as far as his-
>toric punctuality in concerned!!!
>
>> Kaplan has written extensively on issues related to Macedonia.
>> Robert D. Kaplan  is the  author  of the forthcoming " Balkan
>> Ghosts:  A Journey Through History" (St. Martin's Press)
>
>OK! In that case we should be a bit more critical if we decide to
>test him in his "field" of expertise...
>
>> The two Balkan Wars of 1912 and 1913,  involving  no fewer than
>> four nations,  were both fought for Macedonia; the first to li-
>> berate Macedonia from the Turks, the second to liberate it from
>> the Serbs.
>
>And this is the history of the Balkans re-written!
>
>I sincerely hope the "author"  had cared enough to open an encyc-
>lopedia just to cover the basics about the region, before "infor-
>ming" the rest on the "Journey Through History"!!!   Is the paper
>of the book recyclable?

As far as I remember when I was quoting passages from encyclopedias
you were finding them far from convincing.

Why is it that practivcally all the reputable journalist that write for major
newspapers and magazines tend to write "one-sided" reports.  You sound like a
bright guy too,  could it be that you are prejudiced on this matter.

>
>                                                        A.Romanos
Vasil Babamov
From: Chrys Pelegris <chrysp@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: GREK TAKEOUT (Article on Macedonia in the "New Republic," Dec. 21)
X-To: VKB57@CAS.ORG
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:24:04 GMT

VK>Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria
  >From: vkb57@cas.org ()
  >Subject: GREK TAKEOUT (Article on Macedonia in the "New Republic," Dec. 21)
  >Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio

VK>This is an article from the December 21 issue of the New Republic.  Kaplan ha
  >written extensively on issues related to Macedonia.

VK>The next Balkan war

VK>GREEK TAKEOUT

VK>By Robert Kaplan

  >signal to the Serbs against invading Kosovo and Macedonia,  while also
  >reassuring our Greek allies that the use of the term Macedonia by the Slavs
  >does not mean a claim on Greek territory.

    Hahah.. so now, Greece should take the word of Rob Kaplan that they
    have no territorial aggressions towards Greece?  No one can make such
    absolute statements - no one knows what the future holds for any nation.

VK>The wicked irony of all is that Russia,  a historic and religious ally of bot
  >Greece and Serbia,  fully recognized Macedonia last August.  So did Bulgaria,

    Sorry Charlie, but according to Russian newspapers, their "parliament"
    won't allow this motion to pass.  Nice try though..

  >which throughout history claimed Macedonia as "western Bulgaria."  The

    And who says they've stopped? Especially since they do NOT recognize
    a Macedonian nationality, language, etc.. etc..

  >National Geographic  Society,  in a new map,  names "Macedonia" as one of the
  >twelve new countries in Europe.  The U. S.  Government must act quickly.

    I wonder how much they had to pay NGS to do that..

  >Until now,  the public signals it has been sending Milosevic regarding
  >Macedonia have been like the signals it sent Saddam Hussein in July 1990
  >regarding Kuwait.

    One big difference though - Kuwait has lots of oil to pay back the
    countries that came to its aid.. Skopje does not.

VK>Robert D. Kaplan is the author of the forthcoming " Balkan Ghosts:  A
  >Journey Through History" (St. Martin's Press)

    It really is surprising seeing such material printed by journalists,
    who are supposed "experts" on the topic they discuss.. sigh

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chrys Pelegris  |  ===__-+-                          WWIVNet:35@4650
    Toronto Canada  | Internet: chrysp@zooid.guild.org   FidoNet:1:250/338
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * "Money for nothing and chicks for free" - Dire Straits
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: GREK TAKEOUT (Article on Macedonia in the "New Republic," Dec. 21)
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:42:44 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Enea Data AB

Chrys Pelegris <chrysp@zooid.guild.org> writes:
>    Hahah.. so now, Greece should take the word of Rob Kaplan that they
>    have no territorial aggressions towards Greece?  No one can make such
>    absolute statements - no one knows what the future holds for any nation.

That's right. Bomb Athens now! Before they invade Turkey, Macedonia,
Albania and whatever comes in their way.

Why do I get the impression that 9 out 10 articles from Greek posters
make me sick?
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mark Prado)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams and _Croatian_ Catholic church
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:29:31 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu) writes:
> This is taken from "Katolicki Tjednik"  (Catholic Weekly),
>Christmas 1941.  The complete text in Croatian could be found

And what the hell do you want to say with that?

If there is something which makes me sick is Serbs who are digging
up something from WWII do trying to prove God-knows-what.

In case you haven't understood it, it is the name of your people 
that 1992 carries all that guilt we associate with the Nazism
and fascism in WWII. So all allusions on this old mud strikes
back only to your miserable self.


-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,alt.society.revolution,alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: vkb57@cas.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:49:42 GMT
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio

In article <1992Dec11.023738.10200@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.220245.29799@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>>In article <1992Dec10.193740.2804@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:
>>>
>>>3. Wasn't the agreements for the alliance that since the BIG POWERS
>>>   WERE PLANNING establishing AN INDEPENDENT "MACEDONIAN" STATE, then
>>>   Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece would act in concert and keep whatever
>>>   their armies caught? (Maybe the preagreements were not perfect,
>>
>>Hey, that makes it sounds almost noble.  The usual way of saying it would be
>>that Greece,  Bulgaria and Serbia went on a feeding frenzy and devoured the
>>prospective independent state of Macedonia
>>
>><part deleted>
>>
>>>Think about these facts, and then tell us which of all the people
>>>were misfortunate: the Bulgarians, the Greeks (in Anatolia who suffered
>>>the consequences of the BWs in the Ottoman hands) or the Turks?
>>>
>>Or was it the Macedonians,  whose only chance to live together in "AN
>>IDEPENDENT "MACEDONIAN" STATE"  went up in ashes.
>>
>>>Gr
>>
>>Vasil Babamov
>
>
>Vasil, you are smarter than that. By establishing a state by the
>plots of the big powers does NOT make an ethnic group exist; it's
>just a multiethnic political reality. Examples? All the Arab countries
>were big power designs, not "ethnic" divisions. The same with the
>"Macedonians", they were mostly Bulgarians.
>
>What about ex-Yugoslavia? Is there any nationality like Yugoslav?
>They tried hard but the economy didn't help to develop it :-)))!
>
It was the Macedonians i.e. the inhabitants of Macedonia, that wanted a
separate state and fought hard for it;  the big powers were supporting the
idea since it was the only thing that made sense,  the neighbors had different
plans,  though.  The ethnic cleansing in Aegean Macedonia that followed the
"feeding frenzy"  was nothing to be proud of.  If only Macedonia had oil,  or
maybe gold in those times.
>Gr
Vasil Babamov
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10071 soc.culture.bulgaria:1897 soc.culture.greek:11521
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The Balkan Dance of Death [Macedonia]
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:41:29 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Dec10.220245.29799@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org writes:

[deleted] 

>Hey, that makes it sounds almost noble.  The usual way of saying it would be
>that Greece,  Bulgaria and Serbia went on a feeding frenzy and devoured the
>prospective independent state of Macedonia

Still ignorant on history?


>>Think about these facts, and then tell us which of all the people
>>were misfortunate: the Bulgarians, the Greeks (in Anatolia who suffered
>>the consequences of the BWs in the Ottoman hands) or the Turks?
>>
>Or was it the Macedonians,  whose only chance to live together in "AN
>IDEPENDENT "MACEDONIAN" STATE"  went up in ashes.

Ha - there was no such ethnic/national entry in 1903. Never recorded such
nation anywhere until 1945. Read, read, read, read, and read again. Tito is
gone, no need to hide behind his school books. Macedonia will be soon free,
and she will need educated people and not Tito propagandist. Unless you
don't like to stay with the Serbians brothers - but that is your choice.


>Vasil Babamov


Luben

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Letter
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:50:49 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu


The United Nations
Att: His Excellency, Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali
United Nations Secretary General
                                      Knin, Dec 8, 1992

Your Excellency,

Yesterday the Croatian army killed the twohundredseventieth citizen of
The Republic of Serbian Krajina since UNPROFOR took over the obligation
to protect them.

The soldiers of general Tudjman cross our border and kill people on our
territory. Our people are loosing patience. Their last hopes that The
World Organization headed by You will protect them are melting down.
You know well that we believed in this protection and therefore our
soldiers never once crossed over to the Croatian territory. We want
peace and we kindly ask you to stop the Croatian agression. It is
Necessary that crimes are discussed at the session of The Security
Council as you have the complete information on each of these crimes
since we have submitted all to you on regular basis.

If these 270 victims are not reason enough for The Security Council to
take care of and condemn the responsible party then, Your Excellency, I
do not see how the peace can be kept between the two nations.

Finally, we question ourselves, how it is possible that one nation
(Croatian) is allowed to kill and other nation (Serbian) is not even
allowed to defend themselves?

The World and God await answer to this question only from you.

Awaiting your kind attention to the above, we remain

                                    Very truly yours,

                                    The Republic of Serbian Krajina

                                    Goran Hadzic, President
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.euro
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Chetnik stamps
Date: 11 Dec 1992 17:42:33 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: math-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <Bz3L0y.FDr@news.cso.uiuc.edu> brg6080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rasputin) writes:
>wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>
>>Too bad there is no soc.culture.serbia, that is where this really belongs.
>
>>For those interested in fascist history around 1941, I have a couple
>>of pictures of postage stamps issued in "CP6UJA" (Serbia) in 1941,
>>celebrating the triumph over the Jews.
>
>In 1941, Serbia was being overrun by the Germans, not 'triumphing over
>the Jews'.  Sounds like these 'stamps' were made by Ustashe emigres
>after the war to discredit Serbia.  Or maybe they were issued by
>the occupying Germans.

They were issued by Serbian collaborators.  You know, the people who
continued to run the petty bureacracy, who fingered their neighbors,
who drove the trucks, who merrily went along with the genocide as long
as it profited them.

>The _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_ (1990), written by Yad Vashem,
>the Holocaust remembrance museum in Jerusalem, says the Ustasha
>regime killed over 30,000 Jews.

The "Encyclopedia Judaica," written by Jewish scholars, says the
Serbian regime killed around 30,000 Jews in Serbia, approximately 90%
of that community.  I wonder if todays Serbs are as efficient with
their Bosnian neighbors today.

>--Branko

Victor

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10086 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:847
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Unfriendly Neighbors...a Question
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 00:33:33 GMT

Dear Hector,

Your question and appeal is identycal to the many dreamless nights'
concerns and recollections of mine:  why, and how can be that until
recently normal people started behaving in such a terrible manner?
For the difference to you, I lived there, and with them.  There is 
no rational explanation, evil has won in Serbia, it is simply like 
that.  We needed time to understand, now we are going to fight and
defeat it.  Like all 'bottle ghosts', it will disapear and pretend
that nothing really happened.  This time we will remember. 

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: borbor@divsun.unige.ch (Boris Borcic)
Subject: A modest proposal (was Re: Croatian dreams)
Followup-To: alt.politics.europe.misc,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: University of Geneva
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:22:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.085551.18427@husc3.harvard.edu>,
stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) wrote:

[...]

> 
> How is this quite opposite to the what I have said?  Serbs who do not want
                                                      
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> to live in Croatia and Bosnia, i.e. all of them, would be removed?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                ^^^^^
> How is this limited?
> 

Is this a defining axiom ? According to my knowledge, there are, even
in long besieged Sarajevo, still a few thousands persons who choose to
stay and defend their city, and who do think of themselves as "Serbs" 
and are so presented by their fellow citizens and the international media.

If you define "Serb" so that the following is a tautology :

For_Any(X) . Serb(X) => not Wants_To_Live_In_Bosnia_Or_Croatia(X)

I would

1) really want to know for how long you have been using the
   word in this sense.

2) suggest that you state your definition explicitly, and that,
   in the manner of Lakatos, you index the word with an integer
   to mean either

   Serb_1 : "Serb" in the sense the word had, say, in 1985, for
            almost everybody, and still has for many of us.

   Serb_2 : "Serb" in the sense it now has for Milan Stojanovic
            and those speaking the same language (which, presumably,
            are more than a few).

This might do a lot to help communication. 

Sorrow,

Boris Borcic
borbor@divsun.unige.ch

======================

N.B. I took for granted that the misunderstanding is with the 
extension of "Serbs", because of the Sarajevians I mention above, 
but I see that it is possibly the meaning of "to want" that 
you would redefine. Well, feel free to be explicit. 

It occurs to me also that my ordering of the definitions
and choice of indices for Serb_1 and Serb_2 can by itself
induce resistance to this proposal.

May the fact that this choice obeys chronology appeal to
you, and indeed to all in this newsgroup who seem to think 
that chronological precedence is so important as to be a
(necessary and) possibly sufficient condition for massacres 
past to legitimate massacres present,

(N.B. in our case : "past"  < WW2+epsilon < the average time of birth
                                            of all living or being killed
                                            today)