HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thorick@sybase.com (Thorick Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: deadliest art
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:22:53 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <1992Jul23.214433.13396@access.digex.com> cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:
>
>
>>Absolutely. This is why it strikes me as so ludicrous to recommend MA to
>>someone as a means of self-defense (assuming they need it). It just takes
>>so damn long, that I think it is only realistic to measure it in terms
>>of decades rather than years. 
>
>I have to disagree.  The time to train for 
>self defense is now, when you do not have a 
>need for it, not 5 years from now when you 
>do, and you are crying about how it takes
>5 years to learn a MA.  You stand there
>knowing nothing, when you could be a master,
>but for 5 years of time not spent on a MA.
>

I have to agree AND disagree...  I think the point being made is that
some people are only interested in spending a limited amount of time
(like maybe 100 hours or less) learning some techniques of self-defense
which they can 'know' and retain without constant practice.  This can
be done, but it is not really martial art.  martial arts generally 
involve long periods of working on refinement and many of the refinements
require constant practice just to maintain (I don't care if this DOES
contradict what Webster sez 'martial' is  :-)  ).  Thus if a person
is only interested in self-defense, the study of martial arts may
not be the appropriate thing.  And if a person needs self-defense
right now, some martial arts (like my own beloved Tai Chi) are
NOT the right thing because it takes years to learn it..
A short order cook does not need to go to the culinary academy  :-)


>I am starting to think that the best thing
>is to learn a MA, learn about some weapons,
>learn some tactical situation management, 
>and more than anything learn the attitude.

sounds like we're on similar wavelengths here  :-)

--
"We must be careful not to discourage our 12-year-olds by making them   
 waste the best years of their lives on preparing for examinations.  If
 we do not stifle their interest in science, one of them has a chance to
 be the new Heisenberg..."              - Freeman Dyson
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sworking@unixg.ubc.ca (Scott Workinger)
Subject: Re: Aikido and Randori
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:57:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.165005.14870@sequent.com> akif@sequent.com (Aki Fleshler) writes:
>
>	On "form" vs "doing what is spontaneously appropriate" (mushin,
>	I believe) --
>
>		Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.
>
>			-- [and if you see the guy that wrote that,
>			kill him.]
>

You're actually quoting from the Heart of Wisdom Sutra, attributed to one of
the Buddhas.  The document is respected by most of the great spiritual 
traditions of the east.  It is said that if you thoroughly understand that 
line, you're well on the road to enlightenment.

But if you did kill him, you might be able to argue self defense to the
jury.  It is written that Buddha once gave a lecture to his followers in
which he went into certain details about the true nature of reality.
Three quarters of his listeners died of heart attacks.

[And you thought being a dharma bum was all 'beer and skittles'!  :)]
From: z_hilbornrs@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Judo/re:Garth
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:14:44 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

I am a Judo player from Texas, currently working on my black belt.  I've been 
in Judo for 3 and 1/2 yrs.  I am new to the net.  Other Judoka,feel free to let
 me know you're out there.

In response to Garth,
Contrary to popular belief Judo is a very practical art.  Every technique in
Judo has practical applications.  I don't know how much you know about Judo,
but if you throw someone who doesn't know how to fall or if you throw someone
in throws that are modified for the street, chances are they won't be getting
up; depending on the amount of control you use.  It doesn't matter what art you
choose as long as you choose one... You won't regret it.
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Judo and Tai Chi?
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:05:05 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <159jodINNapn@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>Be warned, though, there is no such thing as "light-contact sparring" in
>Judo.  Gravity is 9.8m/s^2 on the mat just like everywhere else.  The 

	It's entirely dependent on your partner(s).  If some guy insists
on burying you every time don't work with him.  It's perfectly possible
to "spar" at more or less full speed and simply not throw the guy hard.
It's not the force of your own body landing that hurts; it's when the 
person throwing you adds momentum or falls on top of you, and that part's
optional.

	The really dangerous part of free practice at a judo club is working
with a strong young 3rd or 4th kyu: they often lack the control to practice
softly yet have enough technique to throw you, and will rely on muscle power
enough to be painful...


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: uubrian@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (BRIAN BENTZ)
Subject: Re: Books on Chi/Ki
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 23 Jul 1992 23:30 EST  

In article <14n981INNsuj@agate.berkeley.edu>, robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes...
>I've heard from several sources that the stuff Mantak Chia writes about is
>unsafe, unproven, and even if it weren't it isn't the sort of thing you
>should be trying out of a book anyway.

	What does he teach that's so odd that you shouldn't try out
of a book?  How is it unsafe?  You're being pretty vague.  The same thing 
can be said of trying to learn knife fighting or some other martial art
from a book.  Anything poorly understood by the student is inherently
dangerous...

>The very worst thing that can happen is you end up psychotic or crippled. 
>At best, you waste your time and money.  I've never met anyone who claimed
>specific benefits from following his writings.

	Wait a sec here... am I missing something in the middle here?
If it's a waste of time and money with no inherent benefit at the best, how 
do you figure it's dangerous to the psyche or the body?  I personally feel 
the same way about coffee and tobacco.  What is he trying to teach people?
(he is teaching chi kung, isn't he?  I remember reading about him in 
a martial arts magazine not all _that_ long ago... if he's teaching
potentially dangerous things and not just another meditation discipline,
how did he get published?)  Just curious...

Brian
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido and the jab...
Summary: Those wacky Homo Sapiens :-)
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:57:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


(Stephen D Brener) writes...

>>>An Aikidoist will never initiate an attack.  There cannot be a
>>>situation of two Aikidoka fighting.  They would just stare at each
>>>other, and nothing would happen!
> 
>Nonsense, I remember one time at the Hombu dojo two Aikidoists, one being a 
>Deshi (lives at the Hombu dojo and has devoted his life to Aikido), got into
>a fight.  They did more than just stare, they threw punches.  One had his 
>jaw broken.

Hee hee.  I love it.  Real people and real life getting in real tussles.  
So much for Aiki non-violence sainthood for the Deshi.  :-)  Ahhhh ... that 
story was a refreshing change from the usual paragon-of-virtue tales !
Probably got suckered by a wild swing, too.  Bet he carries a gun
now, or tear gas or something.  ;-)
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Knives, pressure points, and Kadena de mano
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:44:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul28.094405.1175
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <1992Jul24.103402.2716@mtroyal.ab.ca> sboland@mtroyal.ab.ca (Steve Boland) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.155958.7860@pony.Ingres.COM>, simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis) writes:
>> * "suro" - "sensei" equivalent, "master" or "teacher"
>I think this should be Guro.

No, suro is the correct title for Mr. Inay. He has guros under him but is
the suro (or is it mangi su suro (sp?)) of the system.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: General Training and Conditioning references
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 27 JUL 92 14:24:40    


Last week I posted a short list of references for stretching,
injury prevention, and general physical performance.  Someone
added 'Fleximetrics' to the list, which is probably well in 
keeping with the tone of the rest of the references, although
I haven't read it in a while.  I remember it having a particular
emphasis on quantifying your progress, using a goniometer or the
equivalent for tracking range of movement.  

I also wanted to add one book to the list, Frederick Hatfield's
"POWER, A Scientific Approach."   It has an obvious slant toward
strength training of various types, especially free weight training ,
but it covers in great detail many difficult topics in conditioning,
including the relationship of various kinds of strength training to
speed and explosiveness, which are topics near and dear to us as
martial artists.  

He has one of the nicest compilations of charts
around for determining how to set up weight train ing and periodization programs
(cycle training) to achieve specific goals, and how to incorporate plyometrics 
and different types of resistance training into your regular training program.
A number of very useful training ideas, applicable to martial artists, 
although many of them are relatively sophisticated and require some
experimentation to understand properly.

						kind regards,

						todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Mail Order Knives
Summary: The Way of a Warrior, reprise
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 29 JUL 92 09:35:37    


drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes...

>Well, allegedly they can be sharpened with one of those systems
>employing the ceramic sticks with a triangular cross section.
>But sharpening my Spyderco edges isn't an issue for me because I
>would never cut anything with them except people (barring
>occasional test cuts and dire emergencies).  And I don't cut
>people often enough to worry about it.  Some folks use their
>carry knives for all sorts of mundane chores, but I just can't
>see taking that kind of risk.  You might as well hammer nails
>with your Glock or trim the hedge with your Katana.

You carry a Katana in daily dress and have a short knife that tastes 
human blood more often than kindling, and you manage to stay out of
prison ?

*Damn*, you must live in a rough section of town, Richard.

Ever consider joining forces with Professor Gilbey and 
publishing your experiences ?

						todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: When to start kumite?
Organization: University of Utah
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:01:51

In article <Brst4x.79t@cs.dal.ca> marsup@cs.dal.ca (Mario Ouellet) writes:

   At our dojo, semi-free sparring is required for brown belts and up, and I have
   yet to see someone getting injured because of a lack of skill/control. Accidents
   usually happen during tournaments, when the pressure to "get in" is somewhat
   higher. I would assume that this is the trend at other dojos.

i think that i suffered more injuries in dojo free-sparring than in
tournaments.  of course, i spent a lot more time free-sparring in the
dojo than in tournaments, but there is another important reason:

tournament fights are almost always stopped when a point is scored, or
a fighter is injured.  in the dojo, the fighting is more or less
continuous.  when one fighter gets the other at a disadvantage, he (or
she) must try to completely crush the opponent.

some may consider this unnecessarily brutal.  i think it is a crucial
part of the self-defense aspect of free-sparring.  if you have the
advantage, you must continue to press.  you must not stop until you
are certain your opponent is finished.  if you let up too early, you
may not get another opportunity to win.

if you find yourself at a disadvantage, it is important to learn how
to fight your way out of a fix.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: When to start kumite?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 22 JUL 92 09:04:18    


ALI NAJAFI writes...

>    I used to pracitce shotokan karate. There our instructor believed in
>starting kumite after receiving black belt only. Now I am practicing 
>shitoryu karate where kumite is started well in advance of black belt.

I agree with aspects of both approaches, starting certain skill development
very early, and waiting for several years before getting really heavy
into all out bouting.

It seems to me that it averages out to about a year of solid training
before most people are ready for relatively free sparring drills,
where all the basic skills are put together against an opponent in
a limited framework.

My feelings on this are that if you want to become good at point fencing
then you should start drilling at it as early as possible, with distance
appreciation and footwork drills, even before you have your techniques
well formed yet.  And then add techniques to the drills.   Point fencing
is safe enough, properly supervised, that you can practice it very early,
and restricting the drills helps to avoid developing bad habits.  In fact,
not worrying about scoring in the beginning will probably even help
learn the proper defensive movement skills early.   The end product
after a year or two will be a competitive level of skills.  As far as
that particular type of sparring, there isn't much more that doing four or five
years of basics will provide you with.

On the other hand, if you want to move into contact fighting, you should
put down a *conditioning* base (and basic skills) for at least 6 months to a 
year before even considering moving into the ring with free sparring-like
drills, so it works out about the same, for slightly different reasons.

Unless your training is very sporadic or you have physical impediments
slowing your progress, a year should usually be enough preparatory time.
Waiting longer can help ward off the bad habits and bad early experiences,
but it can just as easily reinforce fear of sparring and false confidence.

So I think the movement and footwork drills should start very early,
and very easy sparring should start after about a year.  I'd say that
black belt level or 4-5 years is about right for the point when really hard 
sparring would begin for most people.   It takes (at least in my experience)
several years of component drills in sparring (simulating aspects of
sparring, one or two at a time) before you can put everything
together into actual 'fighting.'

						kind regards,

						todd
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:50:39 GMT
From: osborn@socs.uts.edu.au (Tom Osborn)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Dirty Dozen VS. Seagal

Kenneth_Ferguson@rand.org (Ken Ferguson) writes:

>     On Entertainment Tonight , they reported where Seagal had made
>claims of being a CIA operative during the 60's and 70's, and had been on
>their "HIT" squad. But when the CIA was contacted about this claim they 
>said they had never heard of Seagal until after his movie carrer....

As with all spook things, denial == confirmation. Therefore, Seagal, who
claimed he worked for the CIA, actually DID (as an operative so secret
that he wasn't aware of it). The CIA probably claims (consistently) that
they believe he is an actor...
--
Tom Osborn,                                   " As  simple  as  possible,
School of Computing Sciences,                       but  not  more  so  ! "
University of Technology, Sydney,        
PO Box 123 Broadway 2007,  AUSTRALIA.             
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: engp2024@nusunix2.nus.sg (ALI NAJAFI)
Subject: When to start kumite?
Reply-To: nuscc.nus.sg
Organization: Dept. EE, National Univ. of Singapore
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 05:51:11 GMT

    I used to pracitce shotokan karate. There our instructor believed in
starting kumite after receiving black belt only. Now I am practicing 
shitoryu karate where kumite is started well in advance of black belt.

    Each approach in learning kumite  has its own advantages: 
starting kumite after black belt ensures that one is experienced enough 
to use his skills; Starting it at earlier stages, on the other hand,
makes him more experienced in kumite when he receives his black belt.

    But which one is really prefarable? In my own opinion, it might be 
better to emphasize only on learning the techniques before receiving
black belt. Although some people find it boring just to learn abstract 
techniques ( which they call it of little use to real life ) for a 
long time before they receive their black. In fact they
ARE useful in real life. Even those who are not much experienced in
kumite can more or less use the techniques for they have trained their
body to act.

Ali.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: terry@cs.UAlberta.CA (Terry Baxter; Linguistics)
Subject: Re: Light Body Techniques
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 04:22:57 GMT

Actually I have seen my O'Sensei do this.  How he does it I don't know.
But, he is able to do this on demand.  He weighs approximately 250, I
have witnessed firsthand 6 students not able to lift him, and then at his
wish lift him very easily.

Dory A. Baxter

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: gracie jujitsu
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Date: 31 JUL 92 14:00:14    


tino@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (allen.j.tino) writes...
> 
>For several years a non-instructional tape called "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu
>in Action" has been available; a sequel is underway.  

It's a delightful compilation of fairly intense matches showing
'style vs style' type of things in bold relief, like people
trying to punch and kick a guy who's trying to grapple them, and
how wrestling groundfighting differs from Jujutsu groundfighting.

Most people I know who have seen it found it very useful, even though
the subtleties of what is going on would be difficult or impossible
for a novice to pick up from the films, therefore 'not instructional'
in the strictest sense.  The same could be said of Tony Blauer's
similar film of contact matches.  You can learn an awful lot from it,
but it doesn't lay it all out for you, you really have to work at 
catching on to what's happening.   But there's more education there in one
'live' match than in a hundred hours of theory study sometimes.

>The Gracies have just released a 5-volume set of instructional
>videos called "The Basics of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu".  Just like they
>say, these tapes cover the basics.  I highly recommend them.

Great to hear that.  Ought to be a best seller !
Are they using one of the major distributors, or distributing it themselves ?

>Al Tino
>tino@globe2.ATT.COM


					kind regards,

					todd
From: Kenneth_Ferguson@rand.org (Ken Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Stretching Devices??
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:26:05 GMT
Organization: RAND
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1a2


    I have a prosthetic knee that I acquired in a motorcycle racing
accident about 20 years ago. This has always made me a bit reluctant to
start M/A 
training. After several years of therapy and alternate exercises I finally
decided to try. My first day in class the instructor was demonstrating
advanced kicks. Some of them looked totally unbelievable, I far as I was
concerned
any way.

    After class I told my instructor that maybe this wasn't for me,
whereby he 
told me that if he could train people in wheelchairs he could teach me.
then he suggested that I
 by a FEXMASTER so that I would not put any undue 
stress on my knee. 

   You see the knee is designed to move forward and backward.
not side by side. This my instructor told me is the main reason older
M/A practioners have severe knee and ligament problems later in their
careers. The stretching machines hold the entire leg in line so 
that there is no undue stress on the knee.

   One of the added benifits on the machines is the progress graphs.
These help you chart your progress in your quest for the full stretch.


      Good Luck  afeelow M/A freak Ken Ferguson Tang Soo Do
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: sworking@unixg.ubc.ca (Scott Workinger)
Subject: Re: FINAL Re: Hot water
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:13:27 GMT

In article <osborn.712364585@dragon> osborn@socs.uts.edu.au (Tom Osborn) writes:
><U55870@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

[Theory deleted]
>
>Critical experiment: HOT and COLD containers in the freezer simultaneously!
>(Thermocouples everywhere!

Careful!!!  If you start conducting experiments, it will put a cramp in
your theorizing.
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Dog Techniques
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:24:18 GMT
	<1992Jul20.171551.2713@mtroyal.ab.ca>
	<1992Jul22.212907.23933@mercury.unt.edu> <seah.711850388@sfu.ca>
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: seah@fraser.sfu.ca's message of 23 Jul 92 00:13:08 GMT


In article <seah.711850388@sfu.ca> seah@fraser.sfu.ca (Simon Seah) writes:

   I don't think I'm cut out to do martial arts.  I would hesistate to hurt
   even a big nasty dog attacking me.  Some compassion thing, I guess.
   At most, I would probably stand about
   and do non-dangerous defensive actions, or just DODGE LIKE CRAZY.

   Does martial arts reduce one's conscience, or do dogs from hell that
   try to eat innocent people walking to school  not deserve any
   consideration.
   ^- not a flame, just curious.

   Simon


Aaaah, the conditional tense, wonder of the English language.  "I would",
"I couldn't", etc.

My response to Simon's post:

	1) Practicing martial arts does not "reduce one's conscience" 
	   or diminish one's compassion.

	2) Dogs, snakes, armadillos, or people from hell that try to 
	   eat/bite/maim innocent people etc. may or may not deserve
	   consideration -- that's a matter of personal ethics -- 
	   but the situation in question requires you to choose 
	   between your well-being and their own, and (!!! IMPORTANT
	   BIT !!!) your attacker is the one who forced that choice 
	   on you.  

	3) Standing about and doing "non-dangerous" defensive actions 
	   ("non-dangerous" presumably meaning, not harmful to your 
	   attacker) and/or dodging like crazy, in the presence of a 
	   determined attacker, is most likely to result in your 
	   getting bit, cut, kicked, maimed, spindled, folded, and
	   mutilated.  If someone or some animal decides to work you
	   over and is not counting the cost to him/her/itself, you 
	   are in serious big trouble, and if you are considering your
	   attacker's welfare before your own, you are almost certainly
	   going to get hurt bad.

	4) If you have never been attacked in such a fashion, what you 
	   think you would do and what you would actually do are probably
	   two very different things.
--


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
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