From: merchant@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Women and Burqa: Analyzing the recent discussion
Date: 11 Apr 92 13:38:24 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

In article <12047@tamsun.tamu.edu>, gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal) writes:
> In article <ku6geqINNt4h@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
> 
> |> No wonder, Ms. Yasmin had to write:
> |>            ========================
> |> 	I found it a little difficult to understand the details of your
> |> 	message, but I believe the gist of it was to convince me of the
> |> 	holiness of purdah,....    ===================================
> 	====================
> |> Let's see the points which are being raised by Ms. Yasmin. 
> ==============================================================
> |> 1: What is "proven" Islamically about Hijab or purdah?
> =========================================================
> |> 2: What are the "proven" limits of Hijab or purdah?
> ======================================================
> |> 3: Some of the current positions can not be corroborated
> |>     by Quran and Hadith?
> |> 4: If the position of ulemas about "purdah" can not be supported
> |>    by Quran and Hadith, then they are an addition ("biddah").
> |>    There is no need to obey them. They can be discarded because
> |>    they are some "male-oriented" views without proper 
> |>    substantiation.
> 
> 
> |> ys3359@sarah.albany.edu (Yazmasterj) writes:
> |> 
> |> >for the sole purpose of procreation, therefore birth control renders
> |> >them without purpose.  Again a decision by a man.  I have never read
> 							===============
> |> >a passage in the Quran which declared women to be solely for procreation.
> ================================================================
> |> > Certainly Khadija (raa), the wife of the Prophet was not
> |> >solely a procreative force in her husband's life.  
> 
> |> >their women suppressed.  The Quran gave unprecedented rights to 
> |> >women which were later ignored.  Consent in marriage, rights to 
> |> >inheritance, control of their earnings have all been curtailed by
> |> >men.  These are rights which have been specifically granted to women
>           ===============================================================
> |> >in the Quran.  
> ===============
> |> >Yasmin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though this question may seem to be specifically for Ms. Yasmin, I think
> it applies equally well to all the female netters on SCP. 
> 
> Ms Yasmin,
> 
> The following question may seem offensive, depending upon your attitude
> towards your faith. If you do not wish to reply to it - don't. 
> 
> I see that you have been waging a constant war against the Purdah (hijab)

I don't believe Ms. Yasmin has been waging a constant war
against the Hijab.  She has stated that it is up to the
person to follow her choice and she has given her
viewpoint.  There have been other(s) who have waged
a war in favor of the Purdah, more specifically the burqa.

> system for quite some time. Being an anti-purdah-ist myself, I should 

Well since you have claimed to be athesist, therefore not a muslim, I
don't think your viewpoint of anit-purdah-ist comes it to play.
The other factor is that you are not a woman so it does not
affect you specifically at all.

> perhaps congradulate you. But before I do, would you like to consider a 
> thought experiment (the kind which was found offensive by another SCPier) 
> which will give me a clearer picture as to what exactly you are up against. 

I believe that she is against someone telling her what Islam should mean
to her, but of course she can tell you her viewpoint herself.  I don't
mean to speak for her.

> 
> I think the underlined sentences in the above posts should indicate what 
> I am getting at. All your arguments seem to be based on the fact that there
> is no clear evidence that Islam forbids women from discarding purdah in any
> given era. Hence it is ok for you to not wear the purdah these days. 

The two last statements seem contradictory.

> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Thought Experiment: 
> 			Now ASSUME that the Quran explicitly (I mean 
> really explicitly in big bold CAP fonts) mentioned that all women MUST 
> (100%/definetely/under all circumstances) follow the hijab or purdah 
> system, covering your entire body from head to toe at all times (forever). 
> I mean showing any part of your body is an ABSOLUTE NO NO. Its worded 
> in such a way so that there can be absolutely no doubt as to its meaning.
> 
> WOULD YOU WEAR THE PURDAH THEN ?  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

Since it does not, this is an irrelevant question.  We ofcourse don't
have a choice as to what Allah has dictated our actions to be, therefore
we have to try to maintain our goal of following in the teachings
of Quran and the examples given by Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

> 
> I have once posted a similar question on the net. The kind of response
> I got was "But its not conceivable that the Quran will say such a thing
> because it doesn't.... Its illogical to imagine things about what the 
> Quran says if it does not say it... Since it does not say this, your 
> question is invalid" etc. 

Exactly! :-)
> 
> Clearly they did not understand the meaning of 'thought experiment'. 
> I hope you do. Or if you feel this is offending to Quran, maybe you 
> could assume that you belong to some religion X (not Islam) and your 
> faith in X is just as strong as it is now in Islam. Then assume that 
> the holy book of X says the above thing.  (Is it too unimaginable
> for you as being born in another religion?).  

Yes, we are muslims by birth or by choice and it is unimaginable to
belong to another religion.

> 
> regards,
> E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.


On the subject of hijab, I believe that all the verses and evaluation
of Ms. Yasmin seem relevant.   I believe there is an hadith, the gist
of which says that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) stated that the woman should
be covered except for the face, the hands and the feet.  I can look up
the referred hadith and post it.  I'm sorry about not having the exact
words by heart.  I feel there is so much to learn still about Islam and
I am a mere student.  The manner about how much of the arms to be seen
and the feet, etc is (I believe) by the requirements of what needs to be
covered for prayers, for examples, the feet means uptill the ankles, etc.
Since all the pieces of the Quran and hadith fit together, we take the
whole and interrupt it to what the Prophet Muhammed has shown as an 
example to follow in our daily life.  The relevancy of the Hadith or
any Hadith is that we have to obey what Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) has stated, 
since it has also been stated that obeying Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is
the same as obeying Allah.   All the verses of the Holy Quran cited
by Ms. Yasmin are just as relevant and all are to be considered as a
whole.  I'm afraid, it is not relevant to follow some guidance and let 
go other guidance on the basis that it does not apply.  It is up to an
individual to evaluate how she chooses to incorporate the teachings of
Islam into her life. (Her, because the issues are dealing with a her) 

I am replying as a female netter on SCP, even though probably most of this
issue can be better discussed on SRI.  I may be incorrect in my 
understanding of this issue, so, Insha Allah, someone can state the
issue and understanding in a better light.

-Rukhsana [ A servant of Allah ] Merchant