HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:08:16 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-4431]: okeanos

In article <1992Oct12.173426.19539@news.nd.edu> jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.165921.1179@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
oki]ght here too.  I don't like the man.  I don't think he belongs in
>>the Curia.  I think he's bad for the Church.  The Pope made a mistake
>>when he appointed him and I don't have any compunction against saying so.
>>
>>Ray Lang
>>lang@cs.tulane.edu
>Do you have any compunction against bearing false witness?

Yes, as a matter of fact.  So I went to the library and looked up
the article (The New Republic, July 4, 1988).

I'm here to publicly eat crow.  That's not what the article said.
What it said was that his _father_ was a policeman in Nazi Germany.

The article was a book review by Andrew Sullivan of _The_Ratzinger_
_Report_.  It's actually more interesting for what it says about
Ratzinger's theology than his past.  Apparently he was a liberal
until he discovered the greater opportunities for advancement open
to those with more conservative views.

In any case, I still stand by my assessment of the man: he doesn't
belong in the Curia and his policies of repression are doing more
damage to the Church than good.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
From: v5875bza@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: sex
Date: 7 Oct 92 13:21:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct7.013142.14156@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt) writes...
> 
>Concerning how to teach children proper sexual morals:
> 
>     Remember when Tom Sawyer had to whitewash the fence? He couldn't
>convince anyone to help him until he figured out that if it looked fun,
>people would do it on their own. He ended up selling the privilege of
>whitewashing the fence.

This is great!  It's not easy, of course, to convince kids that being
good is more fun.  But I think that the role model suggestion you make
is a good one.  I think that in their hearts many people don't believe
it's actually possible to stay virgins until marriage.  Tell them
you did it and watch their faces--a combination of incredulity and
envy.  If you can make sure that your kids have chaste friends, chaste
TV and books, it will make a big difference.  I don't mean:  chaste
in addition to the unchaste, I mean: a huge predominance of chaste
over unchaste.  TV is a lot more interesting than parents.  (you
know what I mean)

>Modern day
>pop-culture doesn't realize that sex is not integral to a relationship.
>It is love.

I think there is a mistake in here somewhere.  This is playing into
their hands!  If love is important and sex isn't, then what's the big
deal about having sex in this manner or with that person?

Compare:  Try convincing your kids to dress neatly by telling them
that what's important is not what you wear but what you do or say.

I think the problem with modern pop culture is that it trivializes
sex, not that it glorifies it.


I'll remember the Tom Sawyer analogy forever.  But don't tell
my kids!



Michael G
SUNY Bflo
Phil
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 98yuwono@cua.edu
Subject: Re: Some questions
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:34:08 GMT

>> No, perhaps like me, you are a victim of the jesuits and ecumaniacs that
>> have muddied the waters of catholic thought to the point where even the
>> catechists don't know (and maybe don't care) what the real story is.
>> Msgr. Michael Wrenn of the Archdiocese of NY has written an excellent
>> book published Ignatius Press called "Catechisms and Controversies"
>> which details the tortuous path that the new Catechism has travelled-and
>> especially the tactics taken by some clerics and other relativists to
>> torpedo the Catechism due to its strict doctrinal line.  Interesting
>> reading (and Msgr. Wrenn is a friend...this is a non-plug plug...)-
>> it should be available in a good Catholic bookstore...
I have to say a bit in defense of the Jesuits here. The Jesuit as the 
the laargest and arguably one of the most colorful Order in The history
or The roman Catholic Church  do have different people that may preach some
heretical view, but The majority of Jesuits are good teacher, good confessor
, Missionaries, Theologians and good Roman Catholic Priest.  I may have
to remind you that Jesuit is also have  taken an extra vow to be faithfulll
to the holy Father.  The missionaries in Asia Largely depend on the Jesuit
effort (Francis Xavier, Martyr of japans, Koreas and Chinas).  The jesuits
also was very valuable to keep the faith of Roman Catholic inEngland during
the persecutions of Catholics (Edmund Campion and the fellow English Martyr)
And With its 28 Jesuit colleges and University and numerous Highschools, 
The Jesuits also teach The majority of Ameerican Catholics who Still think
themselves as a catholic like yourselves and me.  Maybe not all of the are
good Catholics, but alot of good one are also there.  
>> 
>> My advice would be to find a more faithful parish rather than the Newman
>> center to continue your friend's acceptance into our faith.  It is 
>> important that a TRUE picture of Catholicism be provided, rather than
>> a relativist-modified, questionable theology be taught. 
The Newman Center is usually not in Catholic colleges, and Therefore
the quality may depend a lot on the priest that was assigned by the local
bishop.


>> Bryan D. Boyle
>> Jesuit-trained and still a Catholic.

Leonardus Yuwono
Jesuit-trained and  always a Catholic.
 ==============================================================================
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:12:15 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Sponsoring children in thrid world countries

Does anyone have information about Catholic organizations that
provide food, education, etc. for children in other countries ?

Thanks,
joel

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 04:30:52 GMT

In article <tjrad.719006881@pv0a0f.vincent.iastate.edu> tjrad@iastate.edu (Thomas J Radosevich) writes:
>
>
>from an interpritation of scripture--by humans.  The Church is not God.
>The Church is God's representative on earth and is made up of humans who
>try their best to understand God's laws.  Disobediance to the Church should 
>not be undertaken in a flippent manner, but does not necessarily mean 
>corruption.   
The Church is the body of Christ, it is not made up of humans, it has
humans as parts, just as I am more than the sum of my parts.  The Church is
not God's representative on earth, the Church is Jesus Christ continuing His
action of salvation in history.  In this light ask your question about 
disobedience to the Church.
"Who sees you sees me."
>
>Is disobediance of Church law direct disobediance of God?
Again ask yourself this question in light of what the Church actually is.
>Who is the final judge of our actions--The Church or God?
What if the Father through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit delegates
to the leaders in the Church the power to judge, "what you hold bound on
earth shall be held bound in Heaven."
Peace,
John

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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:41:58 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Cardinal Mahony (note spelling)

J.J. had asked about Cardinal Mahony.... since I lived in the Archdiocese
of Los Angelese for 6 years, I'll step in and offer some observations...

	Cardinal Mahony has reached out to all the members of the arch-
diocese in numerous ways, traveling incessantly, doing Confirmations and
special Masses.  He has required seminarians to learn another language
besides English (very important in a diocese where Mass is said
regularly in some 80 languages (yes, including Latin)).

	He has worked with other religious and civic leaders on a
program called the Hope In Youth Campaign which is a grassroots program
to fight gangs.

	He has spoken out strongly against capital punishment.

	He has spoken out strongly against abortion; he has promised the
assistance of the Church to women in crisis pregnancies; he has lead
Rosary processions organized by the Helpers of God's Precious Infants and
has encouraged his auxiliary bishops to do so (most of them have, as well).

	He has support young adult ministry, in particular the
Young Adult Conference held in Pasadena each year.

	He is a good administrator and has improved the organization of
the diocese immmensely; breaking it up into Pastoral Regions each with
its own auxiliary bishop (important in the country's most densely
populated diocese (yes, bigger than Chicago) with some 3 million Catholics).

	He has taught in homilies and in pastoral letters, averaging at
least one pastoral letter a year.

	He has encouraged ministry to AIDS victims and has said Mass for
those suffering from this horrible disease.

	I could say more, but that's a start.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Avoid GOTOs completely if you can keep the program readable.
From: tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM (Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: RE: Annulment
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:08:54 GMT
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Marty Helgesen (MNHCC%CUNYVM.BITNET@AMERICAN.EDU) writes:

>An annulment does not dissolve a marriage.  An annulment is an offi-
>cial statement that a man and a woman who had gone through a marriage
>ceremony and had lived together as man and wife were never really
>married to each other because some condition in existence at the time
>of the marriage prevented a true marriage from occurring.

Yea, I know the rationalization the church tells itself to convince itself that
Jesus' statements about divorce don't apply.  It's still legalism.

This is really great.  The church has you condemned if you do and condemned if
you don't.  You sin if you get a divorce and you find you've been living in sin
(and most likely had sex outside of marriage) if you get an annulment.  The only
acceptable (sinless) alternative is to get the crap beat out of you by your
spouse.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Anglican Church Question...
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 21:57:27 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:

> Ed, I am having difficulty now remembering what our Episcopal Shield
> looks like in the upper left quarter.  I have seen it so often that it
> fades into the background.  I will look again when I get home.  But
> the advertised use of the 1928 Prayer Book pegs this church-to-be as
> one of the conservative Anglo-Catholic congregations that wish to set
> up their own non-geographic Diocese in America and have no
> relationship with the Episcopal Church of America.  They think we are
> too inclusive.  We do things like ordain women, and such that they do
> not agree with.  It is a similar stand to those who will submit that
> long list of resolutions to the General Convention of the Episcopal
> Church and to the Convention of the Diocese of Massachusets.  Louie
> can likely tell you more of the details.
>

Len, thanks for the info.  I know Amanda didn't think too highly of the
conservative proposals posted here recently, and now I'm hearing (seeing) the
development of conservative Anglican churches.  Would you characterize these
reforms as more of a fringe response to mainstream Episcopal policies, or as a
serious backlash?



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:11:23 -0400
From:         "(William E. Aitken)" <aitken@CS.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: English translation
              16 Oct 92 09:15:37 -0400.
              <9210161504.AA03362@cloyd.cs.cornell.edu>

> "born of the virgin Mary and became man."

> Obviously Jesus was not a woman.  To insist that this must be "became
> fully human" is a grave mistranslation and nothing less than PC fascism.

	But like it or not, the Latin uses the word *homo* not *vir*.
Translating it ``man'' suggests that the fact that Jesus had a penis
is implied by this line of the Creed.  It is not.  Homo refers
to a genric human being.
From: aitken@CS.CORNELL.EDU ((William E. Aitken))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: English translation
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:39:54 GMT
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              16 Oct 92 18:44:49 +0000.
              <9210161959.AA17315@cloyd.cs.cornell.edu>

>    The problem is not with the Church.  If people want to complain,
> they should complain instead about the English language.  In Latin we
> have two words, "homines" and "viri."  Both are most literally
> translated to the English "men," the former meaning "men" as in
> "mankind" and the latter meaning "men" as in "males."  So there is
> nothing at all sexist in either the Latin language or the liturgical
> text written by the Church.  The "problem" is in the English language.
> Some of these "anti-sexist language" fascists need to get a clue.  I
> will stop here, as I am starting to feel the urge to use profanity.

	The use of ``men'' to mean humankind is rapidly becoming
archaic.  [Some authorities believe that it already has].
As such, there is serious danger that the creed may come to
be misunderstood.  You are right in saying that the translation is not
sexist.  It is simply imprecise.  As such, your blatant ad hominem
attack against the ``"anti-sexist language" facists'' misses the mark.
[I find it rather ironic that you were so up in arms at the use of
Fasicsm/Nazism labels to discredit Cardinal Ratzinger, but are quite
prepared to use them for the same purpose against those with whom you
disagreee] For at least some of us the change reflects not a desire to
eliminate so called sexist language from the liturgy, but rather a
desire to ensure that the liturgy accurately reflect the faith.

William E. Aitken <aitken@cs.cornell.edu>   | Formal verification is the
{uw-beaver,rochester,decvax}!cornell!aitken |  future of computer science ---
Home: (607) 273-7810 Away : (607) 255-9206  | Always has been, always will be.
===============================================================================
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:08:43 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Wine

Steve,

Yes, an alcoholic layman can refuse the Blood, but I believe the priest _must_
receive under both species, and it is precisely the problem with alcoholic
priests that sometimes demands the use of low- or no-alcohol wine.

Eric
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 09:25:54 EDT
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
 <edjans01.718400240@starbase.spd.louisville.edu>


Dave,

You ask, "Have we become so obsessed with our own _Earthly_ laws that
we have completely missed the picture and are now condeming children
to Hell?!?!?"  I do not understand how you got that question from my
posting.  I said that pastors who permit the use of altar girls are
corrupting the children of the parish, especially the girls who
function as servers at Mass, although they have a responsibility as
pastors to train these children to obey the laws of God and the laws
of His Church.  I also said that the parents who permit their daugh-
ters to serve as altar girls are corrupting their children.  In both
cases the corruption consists in teaching the children that if they
do not like any of the laws of the Church they are free to defy them.
I do not judge souls.  God does.  However, it seems to me that in
light of Christ's clear warning against corrupting children in the
passage I quoted from Matt. 18:5-6 those pastors and parents are
putting themselves in danger of Hell.  The girls who serve at Mass
although they are forbidden by Church law from doing so are not
likely to be in danger of Hell because they have been misled into
thinking it is legitimate.  It is extremely unlikely that the condi-
tions of a mortal sin have been met.  However, when they grow up the
habit of defying Church law, in which they have been trained by their
pastors and parents, may lead them to commit mortal sins they might
otherwise have avoided.

As for the rest of your posting, see my reply to Tom Radosevich that
I have just posted.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:43:06 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: All about the Book of Revelation

Excerpts from catholic: 9-Oct-92 Re: All about the Book of R.. David
Jansing@ORION.SPD. (2119)

> In the end, what is important is the message of Jesus, not the message that
> we should scare the daylights out of one another with talk of the end of the
> world.

Actually we should quite we looking forward to the end of the world, for
then we shall be with Christ, and He shall establish a new heaven and a
new earth, where there will be no more death, no more pain, no more
crying . . . the lion shall lie down the with lamb, and the child shall
play near the viper's lair.

Enought to scare the daylights out of anyone, I imagine.

Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re: bishops's authority (was: Altar girls)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:13:37 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-1547]: okeanos

In article <Bvv6r7.LtB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.020302.15327@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>>Bishops have a proper authority that is their own by virtue of the fact
>>that a bishop is a successor to the Apostles.  The authority of a bishop
>>comes by virtue of apostolic succession and does not flow out from the Pope.
>>He governs his flock by his own authority and not as a papal delegate.
>>Furthermore, even if bishops in the West have not exercised their
>>proper authority out of loyalty to the Pope, this in no way lessens
>>that authority.
>
>   This may be the understanding of the Orthodox and Anglicans [...]

And also the clear teaching of the Roman Catholic Church:

"27. Bishops, as vicars and ambassadors of Christ, govern the particular
churches entrusted to them (58) by their counsel, exhortations, example,
and even by their authority and sacred power, which indeed they use only
for the edification of their flock in truth and holiness, remembering
that he who is greater should become as the lesser and he who is the
chief become as the servant.  This power, which they personally exercise
in Christ's name, is proper, ordinary and immediate, although its
exercise is ultimately regulated by the supreme authority of the Church,
and can be circumscribed by certain limits, for the advantage of the
Church or of the faithful.  In virtue of this power, bishops have the
sacred right and the duty before the Lord to make laws for their subjects,
to pass judgement on them and to moderate everything pertaining to the
ordering of worship and the apostolate.
    The pastoral office or the habitual and daily care of their sheep is
entrusted to them completely; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of
the Roman Pontiff, for they exercise an authority that is proper to them,
and are quite correctly called 'prelates,' heads of the people whom
they govern.  (59) Their power, therefore, is not destroyed by the supreme
and universal power, but on the contrary it is affirmed, strengthened
and vindicated by it, (60) since the Holy Spirit unfailingly preserves
the form of government established by Christ the Lord in His Church."

_Dogmatic_Constitution_on_the_Church_ (Lumen Gentium), Nov. 21, 1964

Presumably, those "certain limits" that circumscribe the power of a
bishop prohibit him from making unauthorized consecrations.

peace,

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:29:20 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls and millstones update

Excerpts from catholic: 9-Oct-92 Re: Altar girls and millsto.. Rae
Stabosz@CHOPIN.UDEL. (746)


> Oops.  I see that in my zeal to discuss something that's been on my
> mind for awhile now -- women priests -- I responded to the string
> on female altar servers.

> I haven't thought about that issue much.  But please don't dismiss
> my posting just because I jumped into the wrong debate.  I think this
> automatic assumption that the hierarchy is sexist simply because it
> is all male is wrong and harmful to the truth we are all striving for.

> Rae

Don't worry, women priests is ALSO a hot current topic of discussion,
you didn't jump into the wrong debate!

Eric
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:15:37 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: English translation

It is absolute NO injustice to women to say that Jesus Christ was

"born of the virgin Mary and became man."

Obviously Jesus was not a woman.  To insist that this must be "became
fully human" is a grave mistranslation and nothing less than PC fascism.

Sounds like the gender-benders are at work again, those who want to put
up a crucifix with "Christa" on it (a female Christ).

It is different to change "for us men and our salvation" to "for us and
our salvation" because that is referring to everyone.  It is inexcusable
to excise Jesus's gender from the Creed, though.

Eric
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:27:21 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bishop Spong
              9:58pm)

Eric, you might try reading the book.  It might surprise you.  It did
me.
Shalom,                             Len Howard