From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Advanced 3rd Reich
Date: 13 Aug 92 01:44:45 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Comments on several topics:

1. Ahistorical possibilities.

There has been discussion about whether Advanced Third Reich
allows ahistorical possibilities such as Russia remaining neutral
or the United States not participating in the war.  It does.
Specifically:

a. If Russia remains neutral it is unlikely to achieve a decisive
victory in a multi-player Campaign game, but it will be very
large by 1944 and would likely be able to win decisively by
invading German-held Poland (Russia would have 8 objectives in
Russia, plus Riga and Lvov, and arguably might have conquered
Istanbul, Ploesti, Belgrade and Athens, for a total of 14.  Add
Warsaw, Krakow and Budapest, and you are very close to the 18
needed for a decisive victory).

b. If the Axis restrain themselves or are losing (or both), U.S.
entry into the war might well be delayed until 1943 or later.
U.S. participation in the war on the Axis side is an historical
absurdity and is not permitted in the game.

2. Players as generals?

I think it's inaccurate to characterize the players in Advanced
Third Reich as generals doing their best under the political
constraints imposed by their heads of state.  This was true of
Third Reich, but in Advanced Third Reich the players are meant to
step into the shoes of Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler and so on and
act as heads of state.  This does not mean there aren't
restrictions on the actions of the major powers, but rather that
the major powers (and the players who control them) are intended
to have as much freedom as action (and perhaps even more) as was
the case historically.

3. Level of abstraction.

I agree that without abstractions any strategic simulation of
World War II would be a very time-consuming game (several such
exist).  I don't think individual ships as units would add much
to a strategic game like Advanced Third Reich.  Rising Sun will
not have them either.  On the subject of abstractions, I'm
surprised the BRP-production system hasn't been mentioned, but
this abstraction also works amazingly well and was left more or
less intact in the transition from Third Reich to Advanced Third
Reich.

4. Portugal.

In Third Reich an invasion of Portugal from the United States
would be illegal, because invasions from the U.S. are only
allowed if no friendly port exists on the western front (29.171).
I would interpret "friendly" as including Western Allied ports
prior to U.S. entry.  Thus even if you concluded that an American
declaration of war on Portugal were allowed in Third Reich, the
U.S. would have no way of attacking Portugal.

In Advanced Third Reich, things are even simpler: "The U.S. may
not declare war on any minor country until it is at war with the
Axis" (46.7).  This not only prohibits an artificial American
attack on a neutral while Britain is fighting Germany (even
though the U.S. won't ally itself with the Allies) but also
prohibits an Anglo-American invasion of a neutral minor to secure
a base of operations against the Axis following a British
surrender.

Of course American forces based in Britain may invade Portugal
after the U.S. is at war with the Axis (so may British forces -
why the emphasis on American?).  In Advanced Third Reich (and
Third Reich as well, I would think), Dave Casper is right that
the idea isn't a particularly good one.  In Advanced Third Reich,
Lisbon is a port, so the Allies don't have that problem, but
Spain has mountains now and is a tougher nut to crack.  The Axis
are usually happy to see where the Allies invade, as it means
they don't have to maintain large beach defenses in France.  It
is also a mistake to assume that the Germans don't have the power
to blast the Allies off the continent.  If they are willing to
give ground in Russia they can demolish a premature invasion,
while if the Allies invade Portugal in 1944 the Axis will usually
be delighted.

5. Third Reich vs. Advanced Third Reich.

A word of caution - many observations which might be correct for
Third Reich will not apply to Advanced Third Reich (the
discussion about ahistorical diplomatic and political
possibilities is a good example).