HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Power of races
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 17:53:37 GMT

In article <26JAN199315070925@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>, tohall@ariel (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) writes:
>       Yes, this reminds me of another possible inconsistency regarding
>Gandalf. As I recall, he is commenting about either Saruman's or Denethor's
>use of the Palantiri. He says something about "How I wish I dared to use it,
>to cast my sight back to the first age, and to witness the unimaginable hand
>and mind of Feanor at work in his halls in Aman". Being a Maia, I would think
>that !he was there when it happened!. At least, it is another hint that he had
>forgotten some things, or perhaps when he was sent to ME, part of the 
>transformation to a near-human form involved memory loss. 

Or possibly that he was not present when Feanor *created* the Silmarils?  That,
like everyone else who had ever seen them, he wished to know *something* of
their creation?

I think everyone has missed the boat in this thread:  Gandalf did not forget
that he was a Maia.  He spent a *long* time in human form, subject to all the
troubles of mortality--including forgetfulness of things that are not before
the eyes for a long time.

The sorts of things which one might forget upon returning to life after a
battle with a Balrog and a journey to the Undying Lands are how to be human,
how not to frighten (or at least impress) those around one with one's innate
power, and the like.  What it is like to be tired, or hungry.

There's no need to be more metaphysical than that.  IMNSDHO.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Subcreation (was Re: Hobbits)
Date: 21 Jan 93 20:18:06 GMT
 <1993Jan17.225529.4687@leland.Stanford.EDU> <samw.727556042@bucket>  
 <1993Jan21.083253.14646@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1993Jan21.083253.14646@leland.Stanford.EDU>
jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

> The desire to have all of Tolkien's works
> fit easily into one grand meta-narrative, IMHO, obscures for many readers
> the fact that real differences that do exist between his works.  I'm not 
> trying to deny that Tolkien's works in many ways connected.  I'm just trying
> to historicize the nature of that connection, to show why there are differences
> between these works and why it is silly to try and seek to "resolve" these
> differences.
> 
> 	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

I don't think there are many in this newsgroup who've read JRRT's works
thoroughly who'll contest the fact that the four works you speak of
(the Hobbit, LotR, the Silmarillion and The Adventures of TB) were
created, for the most part, separately...you've presented your views
clearly and concisely.  The thing that irritates me is your attitude
that it is "silly" to seek resolution in the differences between his
works.  Yes, I agree it is simply fan.fiction, but before JRRT died, he
expressed the desire to make the works cohesive (although he himself
had serious doubts that this would be possible).  Since he is dead,
we'll never know what types of resolutions he'd have made.  Perhaps he
would have found an explaination for Tom.  Perhaps he would explained
why hobbits seem to be excluded in the Silmarillion (actually, since he
died before it's publication, he might have included them...who
knows?!?)  My point is, why is it silly for his devoted fans to discuss
possible resolutions?  I can't believe that you could have read his
works and not been 'mentally' transported to the worlds he is seem to
create within our own minds...and then not engage in speculation as to
the answers to riddles that are not given (especially when the author
gave us reason to believe there *might* have been answers had he
lived).  Jim, you seem to be a very intelligent fellow and I've enjoyed
many of your articles and found them all to be informative.  Why can
you just loosen up and 'dream' a little? ;-)

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS)
Subject: Re: Power of races
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:27:28 GMT

In article <C1A6u8.2zC@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) writes:
>From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
>Subject: Re: Power of races
>Date: 23 Jan 93 00:32:31 GMT

>In article <003166j.25.727723253@axe.acadiau.ca>
>003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS) writes:

>> >However Gandalf himself says upon his return from the fight with the Balrog
>> >that " I have remembered much that I had forgotten and forgotten much that
>was
>> >familiar" (or WTTE). This causes me at any rate to think that Gandalf
>himself
>> >didn't know he was a Maia (consciously) although he speaks of
>"returning".It
>> >is very like what one would expect from one who has a spiritual journey of 
>> >some kind....
>> 
>>       Perhaps Gandalf had forgotten that he was a Maiar, rather than not 
>> knowing? After all, how could someone forget something that important, 
>> especially with his knowledge.  Besides, he's got Elrond and Galadriel to 
>> remind him.  In regards to a spiritual journey, who's to say that his spirit
>> wasn't returned to Valinor, if only briefly, between the time that he killed
>> the Balrog and he was picked up by Gwaihir?

>IMHO, his spirit must have returned to Valinor, perhaps the Halls of
>Mandos after his body was 'killed'. There he was spiritually
>'refreshed' and became the pure Maia he once was in the beginning of
>ages when he was Olofin (sp.) Then he returned with renewed purpose to
>ME as Gandalf the White.  The rest is, shall we say....history. ;-)  

>Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
>Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

     Hmmm.  Sounds pretty good to me.

Jason W. Jarvis
History Dept.
Acadia University
Wolfville, N.S.
Canada
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: RE: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Reply-To: rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:38:27 GMT


	Well the list mentioned earlier was fairly comprehensive including
songs such as "Ramble on", "Misty Mountain Hop", and "Battle of Evermore". 
However,  Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to     
JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure
**all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven).  I have
always found it interesting to see what other artists reference Tolkien.  For
example,as an aside, I know that Stephen King has mentioned Tolkien's works in
a couple of his novels (I can't tell you which one's of the top of my head). 
Does anyone else know of other people that use JRRT?

				--Chard
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:21:57 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

f1toyl@uta.fi (Topi Ylinen) writes:



>Here's one recommendation for all of you who are interested in music...
>try Richard Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen" opera 'tetralogy' consisting
>of "Das Rheingold", "Die Walk~re", "Siegfried" and "G|tterd{mmerung".
>(don't tell JRRT I said this, he'd strangle me! :) He always hated his Ring
>being compared to Wagner's Ring despite obvious similarities)

This is only for those very much into music. I am not, and I regret the
time I wasted watching this on the TV.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:53:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.012324.13204@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> chesky@stanmusial.austin.ibm.com writes:
>
>Of course, we all know that as long as one possesses the Ring one will 
>not age and die like a mere mortal, but what about after you lose or give 
>up the Ring?  Are you still "immortal"?  Gollum is good evidence that maybe
>this is the case.  He was what, 400...500 years old or something like
>that at the time of LotR.  And he had been living something like 60 or 70
>years after losing the Ring.  And he wasn't even senile, like Bilbo.  And
>Bilbo, too lived for 20 years or so after giving the Ring to Frodo (of 
>course his age wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility for Hobbits -- 
>just food for thought).

When the Ring was destroyed, all its works failed; in particular, the
long years caught up with the Ring-bearers. At least, that's how I
read it. Evidence: In book VI, "Mount Doom", Gollum says to Sam that
when the Ring is destroyed, Gollum will "die, yes, die into dust.
Dusssst!" (or something like that.) An even better example: On the
road back to Rivendell, Gandalf says to Frodo that now that the Ring
is gone, Bilbo is "really quite an old hobbit". The implication is
that he aged because the Ring was destroyed.

As I read it, if you have the Ring, it sort of mummifies you-- you
don't age, and become all stretched out. These effect persist, to an
extent, even after you lose the Ring (in LOTR, Gollum had been without
the ring for 80 years, but didn't seem aged). But when the Ring was
destroyed, all of this was undone.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
From: nntas@decwks.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Tim A Sauerwein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien LP
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:28:56 GMT
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md, USA

In article <C19pC0.49E@agora.rain.com> elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Path: nsisrv!ukma!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ssd.intel.com!ichips!hfglobe!agora!elana
   From: elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach)
   Organization: Open Communications Forum
   Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:14:22 GMT
   Lines: 10

   I have an LP entitled:  "J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings His 'The Lord Of The
   Rings', 'The Two Towers''Return Of The King'.  The label is Caedmon and the
   catalog number is TC 1478.  Looks like it's copyright 1975.

   Just curious.  Is this thing rare?

   E.

I don't know how rare it is but I have a copy along with Caedmon TC1477
"J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings The Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring".
I guess they could be ordered.  Personaly I think the 1477 release is more
interesting but they're both provide insight into Tolkien's own interpreation
of his works.  There is also another release by Caedmon but can't remember it
right now.  When I find it I'll post it.

Tim
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gift of Men (was Free Will)
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:36 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan21.131049.12432@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>,
 cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes...
> 
>OK...let us begin a new thread...what exactly is the Gift of Men?
> 
>I used to think that the Gift of Men was the chance to die *or* the 
>ability to leave the Circles of the World after death.
> 
>Now, I am thinking that the Gift of Men also includes the free will
>to choose between good and evil. 

As other posters have noted, the primary Gift is the Freedom of Iluvatar,
which frees Men from the constraints of "Destiny", ie. the Music, and 
gives them a drive to go beyond themselves (ambition and curiosity). 
It is not specifically stated that this includes any extra moral free
will per se.  The other Gift (or part of the same) is Mortality, which
allows the urge of Men to go beyond Arda and even Ea to be finally
satisfied, and is also a safeguard against the possibility of destruction
unfettered Men could cause...

                                  Note that elves, orcs, and the like
>are portrayed as being totally good or evil. They are not capable of
>being otherwise (no flames regarding Feanor please...).
> 
This echoes ideas I introduced in another thread, "Correlation of
Racial Status and Moral Fickleness".  I don't think the races are
really portrayed as "totally good or evil".  There are various examples
of Elves gone bad and Dwarves gone bad, though I guess I can't think of
any examples of Orcs becoming good.   The primary restraint on Elves
was that they are bound to follow the path the Music sets out, as if
it were Destiny, unlike Men.

>Feadin

Wayne. 
**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Power of races
Date: 23 Jan 93 00:32:31 GMT
 <1j7oshINNp5l@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <C17u11.1r9@cck.coventry.ac.uk>  
 <003166j.25.727723253@axe.acadiau.ca>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <003166j.25.727723253@axe.acadiau.ca>
003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS) writes:

> >However Gandalf himself says upon his return from the fight with the Balrog
> >that " I have remembered much that I had forgotten and forgotten much that was
> >familiar" (or WTTE). This causes me at any rate to think that Gandalf himself
> >didn't know he was a Maia (consciously) although he speaks of "returning".It
> >is very like what one would expect from one who has a spiritual journey of 
> >some kind....
> 
> 	Perhaps Gandalf had forgotten that he was a Maiar, rather than not 
> knowing? After all, how could someone forget something that important, 
> especially with his knowledge.  Besides, he's got Elrond and Galadriel to 
> remind him.  In regards to a spiritual journey, who's to say that his spirit 
> wasn't returned to Valinor, if only briefly, between the time that he killed 
> the Balrog and he was picked up by Gwaihir?

IMHO, his spirit must have returned to Valinor, perhaps the Halls of
Mandos after his body was 'killed'. There he was spiritually
'refreshed' and became the pure Maia he once was in the beginning of
ages when he was Olofin (sp.) Then he returned with renewed purpose to
ME as Gandalf the White.  The rest is, shall we say....history. ;-)  

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
From: sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Stelter)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: MERP and Names of the Nazgul...
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:35:55 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

fionn@maths.tcd.ie (Fionn Hurley) writes:

>I don't know what the current concensus is in this group concerning the
>ICE Middle-Earth Role Playing system, but I find it is useful in some
>respects to piece together some items of information. Granted the authors
>may indeed have taken certain liberties with JRRT's books, but it may indeed
>be possible that they have delved deeply into all his works and come up with
>a few things that are not common knowledge. Here then are some names of the 
>Nazgul which appear in MERP and which may or may not be true:

>The Witch-King
>Khamul
>Akorahil (The Storm King)
>Adunaphel (a female Nazgul)
>Dwar the Doglord

>This is all that I can remember offhand and is not particularly in order,
>although The Witch King was the captain of the lot and Khamul was second
>in command. Hope this is of use to someone....

The names of the Nine, according to the MERP supplements, are as follows:

Murazor the Witch-King, Lord of the Nazgul
Khamul
Dendra Dwar
Ji Indur
Akhorahil
Hoarmurath
Adunaphel
Ren
Uvatha

Of these names, I've found mention of only Khamul in Tolkien's writings
(Khamul was named in _Unfinished Tales_).  I suspect ICE pulled the
other names out of thin air.


                           --Steve Stelter
                             sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Power of races
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:39:41 GMT
 <1j7oshINNp5l@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <C17u11.1r9@cck.coventry.ac.uk>  
 <26JAN199315070925@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <26JAN199315070925@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>
tohall@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) writes:

> Yes, this reminds me of another possible inconsistency regarding
> Gandalf. As I recall, he is commenting about either Saruman's or Denethor's
> use of the Palantiri. He says something about "How I wish I dared to use it,
> to cast my sight back to the first age, and to witness the unimaginable hand
> and mind of Feanor at work in his halls in Aman". Being a Maia, I would think
> that !he was there when it happened!. At least, it is another hint that he had
> forgotten some things, or perhaps when he was sent to ME, part of the 
> transformation to a near-human form involved memory loss. 

Hmmm...I'd say that it's more likely that he remembered being in Aman
when Feanor created the Silmarils and wanted once more to witness his
magnificent handiwork.  And for Gandalf to remember Feanor and Aman in
the first place would seem to indicate he had some memory of
Valinor...just my opinion, though.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: weverett@jarthur.claremont.edu (William M. Everett)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:53:48 GMT

In article <C17Fx3.781@panix.com> os2man@panix.com (Larry Salomon Jr.) writes:
>In <C15zDr.E6n@news.udel.edu> timster@brahms.udel.edu (Timothy P Brennan) writes:
>
>>I don't if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there are a few Tolkien
>>references in some Led Zeppelin songs.
>
>>Misty Mountain Hop (title only as far as I know)
>>Ramble On ("In the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair
>>            But Gollum and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her")
>>Battle of Evermore ("... The Ringwraiths ride in black...")
>
>>Anybody know of anymore Tolkien references by Led Zeppelin?
>
>No, but I would not forget "Rivendell" by RUSH (on "Fly By Night", I
>believe), which is an entire song dedicated to the Elven haven in the
>Misty Mountains.
>
>Cheers,
>Q

	Also Battle of Evermore ("The dark lord rides in force tonight")
Which is very suggestive, as well as the title and many other lines in the
song.

	*********************************************************
	*  William Everett		Tan, Rested, and ready  *
	*  Harvey Mudd College		     NIXON in '96       *
	*                                                       *   
	*  These opinions are mine- you can't have them         *   
	*********************************************************
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:44:31 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mss2@quads.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:

>In article <C14IJB.9GF@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz> wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
[Is the arkenstone a silmaril?]

>	I think that if Thranduil, who had spent the First Age in
>Doriath, had seen a Silmaril in the hands of a halfling of
>Middle-Earth, he would have considered it worthy of comment over and
>above the value of the Arkenstone itself.  Since he didn't, I  can't
>really give the theory much weight.

Right. Two more points:

The three silmarils end up in the sky, in the sea and in the fires
under the earth. A neat, symmetrical distribution. I would think
that this is their "fate", and that they will stay there while Ea
endures.

The silmarils in the iron crown gave Morgoth a headache, even though
they didn't actually touch him. Smaug would not have been able
to touch a silmaril, even if it had somehow gotten incaged in quartz.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:06:51 GMT

In article <1k3qagINN7ab@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>
>In the Silmarillion, death is Illuvatar's gift to men.  Even the Valar
>cannot take it from them.  
>
>Does this mean that Illuvatar personally intervened to allow Frodo, Sam,
>and Bilbo to enter the Undying Lands?  Certainly it is beyond the
>authority of the Valar to grant this.

All this presumes that Frodo and Bilbo will live forever because they
are in the Undying Lands. This directly contradicts the _Akallabeth_,
in which the emissaries of Manwe say:

  ...Were you so to voyage... to Aman, the Blessed Realm,
  little would it profit you. For it is not the land of
  Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless
  that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you
  would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a
  light too strong and steadfast.

Perhaps Bilbo and Frodo did not "wither and grow weary", as I suspect
that they stayed in Tol Eressea instead of going to Aman itself; but
there is no reason to think they did not age, or that they lost the Doom
of Men.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien