From: luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.french,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.italian
Subject: Re: Meggy and Yugoslavia
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:35:16 GMT
Reply-To: luciano@athos.Berkeley.EDU (Luciano Lavagno)
Followup-To: soc.culture.europe
Organization: UC Berkeley IC CAD Group

(I redirected follow-ups to soc.culture.europe to avoid further complaints
about cross-posting)

In article <kutluk.713709792@ccl.umist.ac.uk>, kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk
Ozguven) writes:
>In <1992Aug11.031027.6133@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
>mb2p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Marco  Bertamini) writes:
[...]
>>Providing arms to one party? This is even worse than a military
>>intervention. It means that we would get direct responsabilities 
>>for the killings. Although I must admit that our military factories
>>would benefit from it :-(.
>
>Serbia invaded 2/3 of Bosnia, and drove 1.8 million Bosnians away,
>and massacred at least 40 thousand Bosnian civilians.
>
>The Bosnians will get back their land, or they will be th enew
>Palestinians *in Europe* who will be the cause of instability and
>constant struggle [to regain their country].
>
>In the long term  supplying arms and ending the conflict is infinitely
>better than not a long term war against Greater Serbia.

Good example. Providing weapons to the Palestinians did not help too much
solving the problem, did it ?

>>My point was that sanctions can be more strict, and there are
>>other things to do. For example the idea of indipendent news
>>easily available all over Yugoslavia is very important. You are
>>saying that Serbia can get stronger after this war. I don't
>>think so, I think the opposition is getting stronger in Belgrade.
>>I also know for sure of people (Serbs) who are trying to get out of
>>Serbia as soon as they can.
>
>Sanctions cannot work. Romania and Greece have  common interests with
>Serbia. Montenegro is a Serbian country too. If you check the map,
>the effect of expensive oil etc. will not be as strong as the 
>triumph of Serbian nationalism and its gains in Bosnia, Croatia and
>probably Kosova next.

Romania and Greece can be persuaded to support the sanctions, in my humble
opinion, more easily than you can persuade the warring factions to stop killing
each other. Moreover, it is not just a matter of expensive oil. Once you have
shot your last bullet, you can use your gun as a club, but it becomes way less
effective. And guns wear out fast (when used) and need replacement, spare
parts, etc. Stop them, and you will stop the worst part of the war. 
Controlling a PERIMETER is much easier than controlling an AREA, especially if
you have air and naval superiority.
This will not be enough, of course, because you want to be able to stop (or
check) alleged atrocities in prison camps and so on. And eventually you want to
have every party sit at a table and discuss a way to persuade people that their
worst enemy is not a Serb, a Croat, a Muslim or whatever, but some
power-thirsty politicians without scruples.

>>>|> As a matter of fact, both the
>>>|> Italian and the German constitutions say very explicitly that
>>>|> they refuse military intervention as a way of solving international
>>>|> problems. 
>>>
>>>Then what was Italian Air Force doing at the Gulf war?
>
>>from my point of view, they were doing something unconstitutional.
>
>This is not Italy figting against Abyssinia to earn some money.
>This is a interEuropean stability problem with a modern genocide. 
>If the Europe hide behind ridiculous facts as you say above,
>this is equivalent to toleration or even support of the
>fascistocommunits Belgrade government's ethnical cleansing.
>This is equivalent to starting a new spirit of legitimacy to
>all NeoNazis in Europe.

I hope this claim is not serious. I may agree that refusal to use violence can
be perceived as a serious weakness, and historically in some cases (e.g.
against Hitler) refusal to act was not the best way. But equating it as a
legitimation of neo-nazism is a bit too much.
I understand your exacerbation, though, and I hope that the current UN
resolution, authorizing the use of force to deliver emergency supplies, will at
least lessen the suffering of the populations involved. 
And I understand that the motivations of the "powerful" countries not to
intervene may not be noble at all.

Ciao !
Luciano

-- 
Luciano Lavagno            luciano@ic.Berkeley.EDU            +1-510-642-5012
Dept. of EECS, 207-69 Cory Hall, Univ. of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek