HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXt vs Apple -- a couple comments (rtf)
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:33:00 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <BtAtz9.Asn@spock.dis.cccd.edu>  
maurices@spock.dis.cccd.edu (Maurice Shihadi) writes:
> I've been reading these posts and have concluded that all I want to  
see are
> LIST prices when comparing products because list price is supposed  
be
> a reflection of what a product is worth based on the oppinion of  
the 
> original manufacturer.  Who cares about "best" price when one is  
supporting
> an argument concerning "value" in the context of a comparison.  One  
can
> always get a better price so the moment you deviate from a  
comparison based
> on list you loose all continuity and void your whole argument to  
begin with.

Talking about list price vs. street price is very important for
several reasons. The biggest in this context though is how much
can you expect to pay below list price.  If someone says "the
NeXT costs X (list price) and the Mac costs Y (list price)," an
important piece of information to evaluate is "Do both offer similar
discounts?"   And the answer is, from what I've seen, no.  
Mac has somewhat better hardware discounts, and there are much better
software discounts on the Mac side of things.

Your argument on "value" seems to assume that whoever charges more
has more "value."  This isn't true in computers any more than
it is true in buying most anything else.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: prim!dave@germany.eu.net (Dave Griffiths)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: software ports to NeXT (was Re: Attitudes: NeXT users and Sun users)
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:45:53 GMT
Organization: Primitive Software Ltd.

In article <BsvrIJ.DDI@monitor.com> shawn@monitor.com writes:
>
>6th:  NeXT is NOT doing very well in the workstation competition.  The  
>poop is that their sales figures for Q1 and Q2 (calendar) were far far  
>below expectations (one item I heard used the words 'horrid' and  
>'abysmal')
>

I heard the same thing. When are NeXT next due to release sales figures?

>
>Remember too that competition is the purest form of market cleansing.   
>When Virtuoso is released (RSN) it's going to clobber Adobe, and force  
>them to get their app up to par; Mesa has been released and upped the ante  
>for Wingz; PasteUp will force Frame's hand......
>

Are you serious? FrameMaker for the NeXT is only a tiny part of their
overall market. If RightBrain were planning Mac and Windows ports (and who
knows... :-) *then* it may make Frame think. Same argument goes for Wingz etc.

And is it just my imagination, or has there been a freeze on upgrades or new
ports of the "big" applications to the NeXT? I have a feeling they're
standing back to see if NeXT survive. Improv, WordPerfect, Wingz, FrameMaker
etc were all ported to the NeXT quite a while ago. Since then, no upgrades and
no other big ports to join them. (The only exception possibly being 
Illustrator, but then Adobe, through the DSP connection, have more interest 
than most).

Sorry for the gloom. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Dave Griffiths
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jon@afs.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Subject: Re: Poll results Re: "NeXT Developer Marketing Programs"  : -)
Distribution: USA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:02:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.100053.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:
>	I don't think so.  I think NeXTSTEP 486 is a dead end.  I believe
>	MicroSoft's NT is an irresistable force.  While I feel that the
>	Windows portion of the product is inferior to NeXTSTEP, the underlying
>	operating system looks quite good.  In fact, it's good enough to port
>	NeXTSTEP to.  Now if NeXT really wants to do its developers a favor,
>	that's my recommendation.  Port NeXTSTEP to NT and give NeXTSTEP
>	developers an almost immediate market of hundreds of thousands
>	platforms. 

Icka Icka Icka.

I think I'm going to go curl up next to my cube and let this bad dream go away.

With any luck, NextSTEP 486 will be out and fully populated with apps by the  
time NT gets out. (If the ease of porting claims are to be believed.) Despite  
Microsoft's momentum, NextSTEP still has the advantage with regards to  
application development. NS486 will allow companies which write MCCA's to have  
a machine to distribute widely in-house on which to run their NextStep-based  
MCCA's. By using 486's they can allay the fears that Steve will get hit by a  
bus and their investment will be lost.

Though NS486 won't be a "Microsquish-killer" it will hopefully double sales of  
NeXTSTEP-based platforms.

All the above IMHO, of course... 

--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!) or hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
"Where's that damn eraser!"- M.C. Escher
From: ppoh@amethyst.tcs.tufts.edu (Paul B. Poh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Running X exclusively on a NeXT
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:12:47 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA


I don't want to start another war on X versus NeXT but my curiosity has
gotten the best of me. 

Are there any people out there who run X on their NeXTstations exclusively?
No flames please, but I've replaced the window system on my NeXT with X.

And another note. A few months ago, I asked if NeXT offered on-site
maintainance contracts and I was told that they did not. Has that changed?
Does anyone think that because NeXT does not offer such a service that
large institutions are staying away from purchasing NeXTs. 

Both Dec and Sun offer fairly extensive service contracts. In fact, Dec
will even service non-Dec equipment.

--
Paul Poh                        Unix Systems Programmer
ppoh@amethyst.tcs.tufts.edu     Computer Services, Tufts University
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: johng@lucid.com (John Gregory)
Subject: Re: journalistic integrity
Reply-To: johng@lucid.com (John Gregory)
Organization: Lucid, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 00:05:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.193545.26584@cs.yale.edu>, nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
|> In article <833@rtbrain.rightbrain.com> glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid)  
|> writes:
|> > Kristin Dyer writes
|> > > John Robison writes
|> > > Reviews are written to get advertisers (and perhaps inform the  
|> > > readers). 
|> > >         
|> > > you have picked the number one way to infuriate a journalist.
|> > 
|> > > reviews are *not* written to get advertisers, much to our ad sales reps  
|> > > chagrin.
|> > 
|> > As a major advertiser in NeXTWORLD, I definitely have to side with
|> > Ms. Dyer.  We've gotten some very mixed reviews of our products, and
|> > we don't even get to see the reviews before the editions come out.
|> > Sometimes we're not even told ahead of time that the reviews are being
|> > written, or what the schedule might be.
|> 
|> I notice that ads are often located on pages near articles reviewing
|> the product.  I wonder if other magazines do offer companies the
|> opportunity to place such ads near the review pages.
|> 
Bzzzzzt! Thanks for playing the game! :-)  At a previous company we
TRIED to get them to do this but they would not (not even at a special rate)
and sighted a policy against it. You CAN specify cover pages and a few other 
special spots for a price.

To also verify another posters comment,
it is COMMON (as in EVERYONE) for magazines to publish editorial issue and product
focus and they give this info. out freely.

Fer instance: Unix world  August-OOP, Sept-MIS, Oct-System Network Admin, 
			  Nov. Productivity Tools, Dec-Top 10 UNIX Companies.

So if you want to price shop on a particular type of SW or HW, find the right
issue.

John Gregory
(no longer at above mentioned company)


|> --
|> Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
|> Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
|> New Haven, CT
|> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)
|> 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: borders@ms.uky.edu (Johnny Borders)
Subject: Re: Question #3 "Display PostScript--so what?"
    <1992Aug12.165350.8558@adobe.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 05:57:12 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:

>TrueType served/serves it's purpose; it got our butts
>moving here (I and few others put a lot of overtime in
>on the first ATM), and it's a great low-end solution for
>removing jaggies from office memos (which is what Apple
>positions it as).

Hmm.. I could have SWORN that I said this a while ago.. Must be the echo.
-- 
*******************************************************************************
* The University of Kentucky is not responsible * AIX: Marketing or lunacy?   *
* for me, by reason of "Bureaucrats Syndrome,"  * "I never used anything by   *
* a crippling form of insanity.                 *  IBM that I liked."         *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: peer@ccrma.stanford.edu (Peer Landa)
Subject: The faster you grow the more money you need
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 14:35:36 GMT


From UNIX-World Sep. -92. Printed without permission.

--  Canon Fires NeXT $55 Million Indications that Steve Jobs' NeXT Computer  
Inc. success is turning around continue to be overshadowed by marginal profits.  
Although NeXT continues to gain marketshare, it's still hurting financially. In  
the last year, the company has changed its emphasis from box vendor to software  
company by selling its object-oriented operating system, NeXTstep. NeXT's  
relatively slow sales have forced it to seek more outside financing.  
Canon Inc. has given NeXT $55 million, and Jobs has dug into his own pockets to  
give the company a $10 million credit line. "If NeXT was in trouble, it would  
ask for cash, not a credit line," says Dick Shaffer, an analyst with  
Technologic Partners. "NeXT is growing, the faster you grow the more money you  
need."  
"These credit lines are the perfect financing instruments for NeXT," says Peter  
van Cuylenburg, NeXT's president and chief operating officer. "They provide  
more than we require to fund our anticipated growth, yet give us the  
flexibility to use as little additional funding as possible."  --

On page 77-78 in the same UNIX-World issue there is a product review of  
NeXT-station Turbo Color. In the "review highlights"-box the author concludes  
that the NeXT is "expensive for applications that don't need multimedia  
capabilities. For experienced UNIX users, the non X-based user interface is yet  
another style of interface to learn."  . . .

-- peer

Xref: sparky comp.sys.next.advocacy:1771 comp.sys.next.programmer:5692
From: greg@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXT sighting in Computer Language
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:58:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: afs.1992Aug19.005839.658
Reply-To: greg@afs.com

In the September issue of Computer Language, Larry O'Brien's "Editor's  
Notes" column mentions their Products Review Editor now has a "NeXT,  
Sparc, Convergent, Quadra, and two PCs" on his desk. Could we soon be  
seeing reviews of NeXT development tools in one of the better language  
magazines? CL isn't on the Net, but they do have a forum on CompuServe if  
you want to lobby: GO CLMFORUM.

By the way, there's also a good article (1st of two parts) by Grady Booch  
on the most recent formal specification of his object-oriented analysis  
and design notation. The September issue is worth buying for that reason  
alone. I wish it had more examples, though. Maybe the second part will  
have a small system, fully described.

--
Gregory H. Anderson          | "We're very tolerant around here,
Benevolent Dictator-for-Life |  being only amateurs ourselves."
Anderson Financial Systems   | - Tortoise (Godel, Escher, Bach)
greg@afs.com  (Nextmail OK)  | 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: m@crito.stanford.edu (M Carling)
Subject: Re: NeXT won't let us upgrade cubes to turbos?
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 22:08:20 GMT

In article <Bt58w2.FH9@monitor.com> shawn@monitor.com writes:
> Wait a minute, I'm confused.
> 
> A friend of mine just phoned NeXT, and after a four+ person runaround  
> found out that NeXT won't sell 040/33 'cubic' motherboards.  They  
"aren't  
> listed as a part" in any catalog, and the only way to acquire one is  
> through a service department.  They cost $2700, purportedly cost (NOT?).   
> No academic or developer discounts - and that doesn't include the memory  
> upgrades if you've got a sufficiently old system.

This is a marketing issue. Hardware Product Marketing is comprised of only  
two people, so it is conceivable that this issue has not received the  
reflection that it may deserve. If you think the Turbo upgrade board  
should be on the price list, let Hardware Product Marketing know about it.

M Carling
Director, Bay Area NeXT Group
--
Dan Quayle needs a new running mate.
George Bush undermines his chances of being re-elected Vice President.
From: glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Poll results Re: "NeXT Developer Marketing Programs"  : -)
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:57:07 GMT
Reply-To: glenn@rightbrain.com

Jim De Arras writes

> 			NeXT got tired of waiting, and has now changed  
> it's focus.

I think you hit the nail on the head.  The dealer channel was created,
but not particularly well fed or supported.  The shrink-wrap software
business got a good push, but then was left to roll on its own.

My own opinion is that we're collectively reaching critical mass in the
third-party software arena, and when we reach it, the world is going to
renew its interest in the NeXT as a high-end Mac/PC, and will surprise
NeXT with strong sales that have nothing to do with custom applications.
Expect NeXT to then revise its marketing strategy again to once again
encompass dealers, end users, Mac and PC owners.  NeXTstep 486 will also
help enormously.

Let's just hope that all the developers (big and small) and dealers
hang on long enough for that to happen.

--
 Glenn Reid        		NeXTmail: glenn@rightbrain.com
 RightBrain Software		415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
 Palo Alto, California
From: pitre@n5160d.nrl.navy.mil (Richard Pitre)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  NeXT's, Amiga's, PC's, MAC'S, (was Re: Question #2 "Are Macintosh Users Really Happy?")
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:09:40 GMT

If you die and go to user heaven, there will be a Macintosh on your desk.

If you die and go to hacker heaven, there will be an Amiga on your desk
 with no Commodore logo on the box.(Commode door will be in hell.)

If you die and go to hacker-user heaven, there will be a NeXT on your
  desk. (God bless Steve Jobs)

If you die and go to bragger heaven, there will be a 100 Mhz intel 586 
 with a 1 billion gigabyte, nanosecond access hard drive on
 your desk running, CPM with subdirectories/DOS 2.3, 3.3, 4.00.1.1.3, 5.0,
 Windows, Windows NT, OS2, and the ultimate consortium's ultimate answer 
 to everything. (IBM will be in hell.)

If you die and go to hell you will have a DOS machine with 2^16
 interacting dip switches on the motherboard, 6 or 7 kinds of expounded    
 distended memory, several kinds of DOS emulation, and a word processor
 with so many device drivers and features that there is no room in memory
 or the hard disk for the actual program. ( the machine will only cost 50 
 cents and there will be a truck load of applications free for the taking)

- Richard
From: rpomeroy@aunext3.cam.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Poll results Re: "NeXT Developer Marketing Programs"  : -)
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:19:26 GMT
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext3.cam.amd.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <1992Aug17.100053.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:
>>In article <845@rtbrain.rightbrain.com>, glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid) 
>>writes:
>>	[...material deleted...]
>>> My own opinion is that we're collectively reaching critical mass in the
>>> third-party software arena, and when we reach it, the world is going to
>>> renew its interest in the NeXT as a high-end Mac/PC, and will surprise
>>> NeXT with strong sales that have nothing to do with custom applications.
>>> Expect NeXT to then revise its marketing strategy again to once again
>>> encompass dealers, end users, Mac and PC owners.
>>	You may be right and I hope so.
>>> NeXTstep 486 will also help enormously.
>>	I don't think so.  I think NeXTSTEP 486 is a dead end.  I believe
>>	MicroSoft's NT is an irresistable force.  While I feel that the
>>	Windows portion of the product is inferior to NeXTSTEP, the underlying
>>	operating system looks quite good.  In fact, it's good enough to port
>>	NeXTSTEP to.  Now if NeXT really wants to do its developers a favor,
>>	that's my recommendation.  Port NeXTSTEP to NT and give NeXTSTEP
>>	developers an almost immediate market of hundreds of thousands
>>	platforms.  Let Windows applications run side-by-side with Windows
>>	applications and let the better GUI win.

Right on!  Now don't get me wrong, I'm a NeXT man all the way, and NT isn't
all that big a deal to me (individually).  But from a marketing perspective
this would seem prudent.  Anyone remember Avie saying he wanted to 
"exorcise" Unix from NeXTSTEP. Hmmm...
>>
>>	This is consistent with NeXT being a "software company that just
>>	happens to build great hardware."  In fact, however, it still provides
>>	an opportunity to build (and seriously sell) great hardware.  Let
>>	NeXT produce (black) NT machines like popcorn out of their robotized 
>>	factory.

I agree again.  Take the revenue from software sales and build those
teraflop palmtops :-)

>>
>>	For those concerned that anything from MicroSoft must be tainted by the
>>	curse of PEE CEE DOS, it appears that NT is a real quality product with
>>	the key features needed to host NeXTSTEP.
>>
>>	[...material deleted...]
>>
>>	c.f.waltrip
>>	Internet:	<waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu>
>>	Opinions expressed are my own.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
		me too.

--
Ronald Pomeroy
Advanced Micro Devices
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: marcu@leland.Stanford.EDU (Marc Albert Ullman)
Subject: Re: Boot 3.0 from other devices.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:04:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.183309.8455@leland.Stanford.EDU> m@crito.stanford.edu (M Carling) writes:
>"It's right" refers to:
>>> NeXT's phone person said the following:
>>> 
>>> 4)  The OD cannot be configured as a boot device in NS3.0 (?!)
>
>Taken out of context my sentence would have been ambiguous. But the  
>following sentence cleary stated that 3.0 could be booted from an OD.

Still sounds contradictory to me. :-)

>The End User License Agreement allows the end user to do it himself. The  
>only difference is that someone else would have been doing. BANG is not  
>going to copy software unless it is *clearly* legal. That is why we asked  
>NeXT's legal department.

So why not simply let the user do it.  If you set up a machine at a
user meeting or something, you could let the user hit the <CR> or
click the mouse rather than having someone else do it for them.

--Marc
From: glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXt vs Apple -- a couple comments (rtf)
Date: 16 Aug 92 07:00:31 GMT
Reply-To: glenn@rightbrain.com

Maynard J. Handley writes

> Well I'm sorry, dude, but on seeing this you lose all credibility. $300 for
> 4 1MB SIMMs? Are you insane? You can get 4 1MB SIMMs mail order for around
> $120.
> Makes me inclined to regard the rest of your post as similar junk.

All the prices were suggested retail prices, on both sides of the fence.
Obviously street prices are going to be cheaper.

--
 Glenn Reid        		NeXTmail: glenn@rightbrain.com
 RightBrain Software		415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
 Palo Alto, California
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: NeXt vs Apple -- a couple comments (rtf)
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:31:51 GMT

Glenn Reid writes
> All the prices were suggested retail prices, on both 
> sides of the fence.
> Obviously street prices are going to be cheaper.
> 

Well yes, but mac street prices i've seen tend to be a much  
lower percentage of NeXT street prices I've seen (unless  
you can get edu prices).  So the comparison is still  
weighted against the Mac.
Having said that, even with all the corrections that mac  
people have made to the prices posted, they still come up  
with a more expensive system than an equivalent NeXT  
system.  So the bottom line still holds: mac users pay too  
much.  But its hard to convince them if you don't use the  
actual prices that they pay.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@leland.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lemson@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David Lemson)
Subject: Re: NeXT won't let us upgrade cubes to turbos?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:56:57 GMT

Plus, (I assume this is a moot issue to you) if you did get the
Turbo cube motherboard, you wouldn't have a place to plug in your OD
if you have one (they aren't supported w/Turbo cubes).  Contact Spherical
Solutions for info on how to make it work, etc. etc.. (I think we've
beaten this one to death)
-- 
David Lemson                                                 (217) 244-1205
University of Illinois NeXT Campus Consultant  / CCSO NeXT Lab System Admin
Internet : lemson@uiuc.edu                 UUCP :...!uiucuxc!uiucux1!lemson 
NeXTMail accepted                                   BITNET : LEMSON@UIUCVMD