From: jpalmer@onetouch.COM (John Palmer)
Subject: Re: Science and god: Are they incompatible? If so, why?
Organization: MCS/OneTouch, Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:18:56 GMT

lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals) writes:

>=->go to church), then he's STILL less moral than the Christian?  Who was it who
>=->said something like "By their fruits shall ye know them"?
>=
>=This person's attendance of church says absolutely nothing about his belief.
>=That's the important part.

>How about answering the question?  If a person behaves in the manner that your
>moral code says is desirable, is that person moral even if he doesn't happen to
>be a Christian?  And if the answer is "no," then what the hell happened to "by
>their fruits shall ye know them"?

     I believe that 'by their fruits you shall know them' was spoken by Christ
as a method to distinguish false prophets from true ones.  If you want to claim
that good works aren't enough if you're not (fill in the blank with your
preferred church name), this particular quote (unless it happens elsewhere)
doesn't exclude it.

     Of course, you have to realize that there ARE people out there who DO
believe that good works are, in fact, worthless unless done for the 'right'
reasons.  (In fact, ANOTHER problem I have with relativism is that feeding the
                                               ^
                                        (insert 'some forms of')

hungry is not 'good' unless you believe it is. . .I think feeding the hungry is
often done by ostentatious (expletives deleted) but the act is still 'good'
regardless)  It can be really fun to point out that, in effect, everyone does
exactly what they WANT to do to these types of people.  They turn all sorts of
pretty colors.

("So what about mother theresa?"
"What about her?"
"She does good things."
"I bet she likes doing good things."
"That's NOT why she does them!!"
"Okay, why does she do them?"
"Because they are good things."
"Why doesn't she let someoen else do them?"
"Because she doesn't. . . (person turns first color, trying to avoid the use of
the fatal word 'want', and conversation goes downhill from here.)")

(note:  I consider the thing that makes mother theresa et al to be 'good' is
the fact that such people DO enjoy doing something JUST BECAUSE it is good.
Why do some people get so upset at the thought that you can enjoy doing
something nice?)

     However, since I agree with StM in essence, I'll throw the next pitch:
Okay, so Christ said "I am (the) Way, (the) Truth, and (the) Light."
(Liralen, I believe, said that the exclusive 'the' was not used in this
passage, so I am putting the 'the' is parenthesis.)

    Can you not go a certain direction without a compass?  (ie, couldn't I just
happen to be walking east?  Or heck, couldn't I go east by my shadow, instead
of 'true magnetic' east?)  Can you not believe a truth without knowing a proof?
Can you not see by a light, without staring directly at it?

    In other words, could not an atheist follow this way, believe this truth,
and see by this light WITHOUT believing in them?

                                         John/The Crazyman
 
-- 
John Palmer					jpalmer@onetouch.COM
Columbus, OH					...!uunet!onetouch!jpalmer