From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotgun recomm. for new shooter?
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:57 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <1992Nov4.185410.17005@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
= In article <9211031545.AA08754@newshost.lanl.gov> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
= #
= #My personal view of the reason for the popularity of the
= #over-and-under is that it is three-fold.  First is the belief in
= #the value of a "single sighting plane"; if you believe in it, it is
= #true (and I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it) for it will bolster
= #your confidence and you *will* shoot better, a self-fulfilling
= #prophesy.  
= 
= 	There's a lot to be said for this kind of thing.  E.g. in combat
= 	situations this can make all the difference between living and
= 	dying.

It's also important (albeit not nearly as *much* so :) for winning
matches, bringing home birds from the field, etc.  But I digress.

The point that I was trying to make is that *I believe* that if one
had the same belief about a double (i.e. a side-by-side) then the
confidence thing would work there as well.  If on listens to the
wing-shooting experts (my disclaimer about me shooting birds rather
than people was deleted so I'll mention it for context) most
if not all claim that, ideally, one should *not* see the gun--only
the target.  If that be true, what's the difference if there are
one, two or a dozen sighting planes that you *don't* see?

All of this is my perception (or misperception) of the situation so
take as many grains of salt as you deem appropriate.  :)

= #Second is fashion.  
= 
= 	Disgusting :)

Agreed!

= #And third, you can buy a better
= #quality over-and-under for a given price[1] than you can a double.
= 
= 	Is this *so*??  One can pick up a used Parker or Smith (my personal
= 	favorite) for <600 bucks.  O/Us seem to be substantially more
= 	expensive than this.  Don't field grade Citoris run over $1K?

Ah, but you're comparing *used* guns with *new* ones.  Apples and
oranges!  Shame on you.  :)

But seriously, compare the cost of *new* doubles with that of
comparable quality over-and-unders.  I consider the Citori to be a
pretty good quality gun.  Well made, reliable, smooth, decent looking.
Take that price and then look at how many kinds of double you can
buy for that same price and, more importantly, look at their
quality.

My gun budget has been dead for years so I haven't kept up with
prices.  Actually there are few decent and affordable doubles
available in the US.  From what I've seen, the low-end Spanish
doubles don't come close to the quality of the Citori, the Red
Label, etc.

Of course, it could be that, simply, when I was looking for a gun,
there were few doubles available in the price range I could have
afforded although there were quite a few over-and-unders so the
only doubles available were the costly ones.

When Olin/Winchester still was in the firearms business, they sold
(Japanese made) guns of both configurations:  The model 23 double
in various grades and incarnations and the model 101, the over-and-
under.  My recollection is that the 23s were more costly than the
101s.  I found the 23s to be quite unreliable.  Never owned a 101
but Winchester suggested that, while they claimed that the 23 was
reliable enough, maybe I should consider a 101 for frequent
shooting such as skeet.  Draw your own conclusion.

Presently about the only one who sells both doubles and over-and-
unders of good quality and moderate cost are Beretta.  I believe
the Onyx is the bottom of the line (or was) and comes in both
configurations.  At one time, there were the 627 (double) and the
687 (over-and-under).  I don't recall the costs.  If you compare,
be sure the alphabet soup after the number is the same--it
designates the grade level.  E.g. don't compare a 627EL with a
687EELL.

= 	-Andy V.
= 	
= 	PS Automatic ejectors are the neatest thing since sliced bread :)=)

As long as they work!  Two, no three, of the problems that I had
with model 23s were with the ejectors.  The others included
doubling at odd moments.  When I bought my current gun, a Parker-Hale
640E I chose it rather than the more costly 645E partly because it
was about $150 less and partly because I didn't want to chance
further problems with breaking AEs.  I reload so I always catch the
empty cases anyway so I figured it would make little difference to me.
Actually, it is a little easier to remove the empties even when you
catch them when you have AEs and more so to remove *one* empty
leaving behind the full one.  But, for $150 and two fewer things to
break...


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov