HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Slant-nosed BART & "California Cars"
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:02:26 GMT


>From: fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven)
>I believe San Mateo's downtown parking garage can be used by
>commuters, but this is the exception, not the rule.  Also, there are a



This is not true. It is a pay lot in which CalTrain parking passes
do not count.




>Another point is that BART's parking, except at Lake Merritt, is free.
>CalTrain's is not.  This makes a big difference for daily use if you



It is not free. Your BART fare is twice that of CalTrain's per mile.






>I think expanding CalTrain makes a lot of sense in the short term.
>The idea of electrifying the line and then using the diesel equipment
>for things like one-way commute routes to Livermore and Tracy and Gilroy
>and so on I think is a very good one.  But real commute service takes
>more than that.



It also takes more than 15 minute headways at 35 mph over distances greater 
than 30 miles while standing up.



   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1833 alt.activism:13674 ca.environment:767
From: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,alt.activism,ca.environment
Subject: Re: How much pollution from motor vehicles?
Date: 28 Jul 92 23:35:46 GMT
Reply-To: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Peirce Software
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4


In article <1992Jul28.085904.5377@resonex.com> (ba.transportation,alt.activism,ca.environment), frankm@resonex.com (Frank Muennemann) writes:
> Other pollution mechanisms:
> 
> n+1) social and commuting dependency on cars
> n+2) reduced support for mass transit & bicycle commuters==> more cars
> n+3) more social and commuting dependency on cars
> n+4) reduced support for mass transit & bicycle commuters==> more cars
> 
> ...ad nauseum...
> 
> And let's not forget road kills, either.

And eye strain from all the chrome!

--  Michael Peirce      --   peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org
--  Peirce Software     --   Suite 301, 719 Hibiscus Place
--                      --   San Jose, California USA 95117
--  Makers of...        --   voice: (408) 244-6554 fax: (408) 244-6882
--            SMOOTHIE  --   AppleLink: peirce & America Online: AFC Peirce
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Whats that train running down the track?
Date: 26 Jul 92 05:41:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Jul25.231906.5002@PA.dec.com> gnn@wsl.dec.com (George 
Neville-Neil) writes:
>
>The number is 2472.  It is a 2400 series oil fired steam locomotive.

I saw it go through the San Bruno "station".  I knew it was coming through,
and that seemed like a good place to watch.  I was hoping it would go by a
great speed, but it was only doing 40 or so.  I also hoped for a good loud
whistle, but it seemed muted.  Complaints from the neighbors, perhaps? 

A former SP (now Amtrak) fireman was also there waiting to see it go by.
He had actually worked on that engine sometime in the past.  He had lots of
interesting stories about running into cars, etc. 

>It was amusing to see it pulling more cars than I've ever seen on
>a Caltrain.

Now George, you should just hang out at the switchyards more often -;
Seriously, though, I saw one with more cars this afternoon after the
circus.  I'd guess it had 15 or 20 cars.  

Oh, you meant revenue-producing cars?  These were just empty cars being
moved somewhere.

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Buying up old polluting cars
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:58:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (College Eight)
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <D2150035.9922ki@outpost.SF-Bay.org> peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce) writes:
>What this proposal is allowing them to do is buy up enough old cars
>that would have produced as much pollution as X above.  Buying up
>the cars is much cheaper than changing their factory.  This saves
>them big bucks and reduces air pollution just as much.

Well, it seems to me that cars and coal-burning factories produce
different kinds of pollution and they're not exactly equivalent.
Still, sounds to me like a good idea...

 =Aaron=

-- 
Aaron Priven, aaronrp@ucscb.ucsc.edu or fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu
        "Men make history, but they do not do so under 
         conditions of their own choosing." -- Karl Marx
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,alt.activism,ca.environment
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@mail.psi.net>
Subject: Re: How much pollution from motor vehicles?
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:08:47 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.0)

Another addition to the list: psychological damage to drivers. And those most
seriously affected are, of course, the least aware of their illness.

Remember all those experiments a few years ago with sensory-deprivation 
tanks? There's a lesson here. The poor driver is fully convinced that he has
freely chosen to spend hours every day under conditions of physical
immobility and crushing boredom, isolated from all human contact except 
the insidious ersatz of radio. All sense of physical and social reality 
is drained from his environment by a cocoon of metal and glass and the 
fugue-state transience of everything he encounters at speed. Combine 
this with the suburban-cowboy ideology of the white-collar proletariat 
and you have a recipe for murderous near-psychosis. Not to mention the 
profoundly disturbing effect of the unconscious equation "vehicle = penis." 

We've recently been seeing a type-specimen of the ailment on this 
board. I forget the patient's name, but he started a quite extensive 
thread with some lumpen-bourgeois bluster to the effect that when he 
wants to drive, people should "get the hell out of [his] way," and 
followed this up with an absolutely classic rant about socialism, 
left-wing conspiracy, and of course the indispensable "American way of 
life." Ought to be required reading for anybody contemplating a 
life-style choice that will land him in the car culture.
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1725 ba.market.misc:5360
From: mdr@ocf.berkeley.edu (Mike Rogoff)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,ucb.wanted,ba.market.misc
Subject: Looking for ride to LA....
Date: 22 Jul 1992 06:56:33 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: locusts.berkeley.edu


I'm looking for a ride to the UCLA area this weekend.  (Actually, 
any weekend, but this one in particular.)  Is anybody planning to
drive down there?  I'm willing to pitch in for gas, drive, and 
engage in conversation.  Please let me know via e-mail or call me
at (510) 848-5218.  I live in Berkeley but am semi-mobile.  Thanks.

If it's getting close to the weekend you're going, you may want to 
call instead of using e-mail, just to be sure I get the message....

Also, even if you're not going this weekend but are sometime in the 
future and like to have company and lower gas costs, keep me in mind
and let me know when you're going because I'll probably be interested.

Thanks again,  
    Mike
From: karplus@cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz-San Jose CalTrain?
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:43:33 GMT
Reply-To: karplus@ce.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus)
Distribution: ba
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz; Committee for Open Access Computing
NNTP-Posting-Host: ararat.ucsc.edu

Aaron Priven mentioned the "Gigantic Timetable to Everything" that he
did for my desktop publishing class.  It was realy a very nice job,
and included some three-transfer routes to the East Bay that I had
never considered.  As he pointed out the Caltrain Connector changed
operators and schedules just a couple of weeks after he finished the
guide.  I was hoping someone could point out other transit options
that he and I had both missed.  (Renting a car is not a transit option
for me, as I do not have a driver's license.)  Taxi might be fast, but
you can't reserve taxis in advance in Santa Cruz (add an extra
30 minutes to an hour for one to become free), and I'm sure the
cost to San Francisco is enormous.

The fastest route to SF depends on time of day, but I've had the best
luck with taking Peerless Stages to Hayward, then BART from there,
particularly if I add in whatever time it takes me to get to anywhere
useful in San Francisco.  The route could be made 20 minutes faster if
Peerless didn't stop for half and hour at the San Jose bus depot, and
it would be much more comfortable if Peerless didn't have antique
buses with crummy suspension (they must buy used buses from Greyhound
once Greyhound decides that it is no longer possible to maintain them).

Does anyone have an address or phone number for the Central Coast
Railway Club in San Jose that publishes the Ferroequinologist?  I'd
like a copy of the issue about the Suntan Specials.  The libraries at
UC Berkeley and Stanford, and the California State Library in Sacramento
subscribe, but UC Santa Cruz does not.  (Interestingly, the UCB subscription
is at Bancroft, not in the Transportation Library.)

The most recent study of using the SP rail line in Santa Cruz County
is being done by a consultant with the guidance of the Santa Cruz
County Regional Transportation Commission.  I believe that the person handling
things for the SCCRTC is Jack Witthaus (who is also the SCCRTC's bicycle
coordinator).  

I also was disappointed to hear that Gary Patton was responsible for limiting
the study to in-county transit, as the Santa Cruz voters who supported the
railway initiatives thought that they were voting for restoring some sort
of over-the-hill service (even if it was only weekend tourist trains).

Kevin Karplus
From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Whats that train running down the track?
Date: 25 Jul 92 23:19:06 GMT
Organization: Western Software Lab

In article <t4jmvsb.tssmith@netcom.com> tssmith@netcom.com (Tim Smith) writes:
>This is a new model of commuter engine that Amtrak is trying out, now that
>they have taken over the Caltrain commuter service.
>


It's probably in better shape then most of their diesels :-)

>Seriously, this is an ex-Southern Pacific engine, I believe the number
>is 2572.  It lives up in the South SF area, and is brought out several
>times a year for exhibition runs.  It was undoubtedly on its way to
>San Jose, for the Nation Railroad Historical Assoc. meetings being
>held there this week.  I heard its whistle from my house in San
>Mateo--lovely sound.
>

The number is 2472.  It is a 2400 series oil fired steam locomotive.

It was amusing to see it pulling more cars than I've ever seen on
a Caltrain.

Later,
George
--
Better weapons lead to better and better weapons, until the earth is
a grenade with the fuse burning.	--- William S. Burroughs
					    _Cities of the Red Night_
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: mmoore@epx.cis.umn.edu ("None of ya Bizness")
Subject: Re:  East Bay -> Silicon Valley commute
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:25:27 GMT

In article <9207301507.AA00347@asia.fai.com> vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe) writes:
$
$
$Why should it be extended? Bringing CalTrain around to Fairfield would
$be cheaper and faster while providing several connections to BART
$and Altamont Pass trains. Why is changing trains in San Jose preferable
$to changing in Oakland or Warm Springs. Neither of the 3 are in 
$reach of the Silicon Valley industries.

San Jose's the closest.

$>But for E.Bay
$>users who want to go N after changing at SJ, Caltrain will have to be
$>upgraded to give BART-type frequency.
$
$
$Are you sure? What happens when 1400 CalTrain passengers try to get
$on a 720 seat BART for a trip to the Coliseum.
$

They'll wait 5 minutes for the next BART train.  At most 20.

$>The problem is that BART is a true mass-transit system, whose users have
$>got used to a mass-transit level of service, and don't need to consult
$>schedules. How unreasonable of the users :-)
$
$People wait for infrequent airplanes, that doesn't seem to stop them
$from flying. Besides if BART riders "don't need" schedules then why
$did BART start printing them?

For people who haven't rode BART before.

$>Dumbarton Bridge is single tracked. What kind of service are you suggesting?
$>A Bart-frequency service over Dumbarton Bridge and down the peninsular
$>would be ideal for me to get to work. But a commute hour only service
$>would be unusable. 
$BART's frequency is its only advantage over the present CalTrain although
$it is not something particular to BART's design or cost. Your continued
$harping on it with only "I do not believe anything else" type of faith
$it just as detrimental to this discussion as any of the personal flames
$that everybody else has criticized.
$

But it'as a very important advantage.

$   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com


-- 
Malcolm Diallo Moore, Honeywell/CIS-Univ. of Minn.     mmoore@epx.cis.umn.edu
				            Moore_Malcolm+@ssdc.honeywell.com	
"Jeeeeah this is the rap about the bat batman he is the one in black like a bat
out of hell he will reveal SCREAMIN DOWN THE ROAD IN A BATMOBILE!!!!!!!"
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Cable grips are like clutches
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:50:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.142855@wsl.dec.com>, gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
|> |> Now *there's* an idea.  Put a cable under CalTrain, say at 40-50 mph...
|> 
|> Hehehe.  Not very practical, remember that the cable would have to move
|> at a constant 40-50 mph.  The jolt you got when you picked up the cable
|> would be quite painful :-) 

No more painful than the "jolt" you get on SF's cable cars.  The cable
"grip" works like a clutch in that it is used to gradually tighten its
grip on the cable as the cable car comes up to full cable speed.   A 
mischeiveous gripman on a stopped cable car certainly could jolt folks
by doing the equivalent of "poping" the clutch in a car by rapidly
yanking the cable grip lever all the way back as hard as he can...


-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
From: ed@wente.llnl.gov (Ed Suranyi)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Slant-nosed BART & "California Cars"
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:09:07 GMT
Organization: UC Davis Dept of Applied Science at LLNL

In article <9207271455.AA03882@asia.fai.com> vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe) writes:
>>From: ed@wente.llnl.gov (Ed Suranyi)
>>Well, in my opinion frequency is by far the most important consideration
>>of the ones you mentioned.  

>If your daily trip is 45 miles each way and you had a joice of a train 
>without seats every 15 minutes at 35 mph or one with cushioned seats that
>allowed food and drink with no barrier entry and cost half as much every
>20 minutes at 50 mph. Which do you choose?

I would choose the system that actually had a train leaving when I 
wanted to go.  I mean, in your scenario I would obviously take the
second choice if the two trains left at the same time. But in the
real world, they don't.  That's why frequency is so important.  What
good is a train that goes even 100 mph if it doesn't leave when
you want to go?

>>(And, anyway, BART is far better integrated
>>into San Francisco's public transit system than Caltrain.)

>For BART you walk upstairs to the MUNI and up or down the stairs
>to buses. For CalTrain you walk to the end of the platform to 
>get to the MUNI. The only real difference with respect to "integrating"
>are the stairs. I would not suggest that negotiating stairs make
>it "far better".

What I meant was that BART connects right to Market Street, which is 
the main transit corridor for San Francisco.  Not only is the Muni
Metro right there, but at least 20 bus lines either run along Market
Street or intersect it at a BART station.  So if you can get to
Market Street you can get virtually anywhere else in the city without
transferring.

Only a half-dozen or so Muni lines come to the Caltrain station.

Ed
ed@wente.llnl.gov

Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Subject: Whats that train running down the track?
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:34:35 GMT

I was waiting at the 5th ave Redwood City RR crossing with the
crossing gates down for the train to go by last Thursday morning.

As I stooped down to grab some papers that had slipped off the
passenger seat, I heard the train whistle- but it sounded MUCH
different.  I peeked up in time to see a vintage jet black STEAM
engine pulling a train of antique passenger and freight cars.

Nothing in the papers that I could find.  What was that I saw?

It was a thrill.

Mike
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Trains over the Altamont meeting
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:06:42 GMT


There will be a meeting in Livermore where they will probably decide
to accept the consultants advisory. As such the Altamont Pass 
Advisory Coalition(APAC) will choose to sponsor UP to begin running
passenger(commuter) trains from Stockton to San Jose.



        Altamont Pass Advisory Coalition


           Holiday Inn - Livermore
           King/Queen conference room
           720 Los Flores Road, Livermore

             July 31, 1992      10:00 A.M.


      Westbound on I-580 -  take Springtown Blvd. Exit
      Eastbound on I-580 -  take First Street Exit.



 I will probably be attending. I will let you know what they say but
 the papers should have it over the weekend.


   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: San Mateo County BART/SFO Resolution
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:42:07 GMT


>From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
>Livermore Valley. I'm sure that UP's line is only a single-track one,
>and from the maps I have, it's rather curvy. So it would be VERY slow
>going for two-way service, though OK for one-way commute service. It


The Swedish have tilt trains that allow faster speeds around curves.
Amtrak is just about to begin trials in the North East Corridor(NEC).
With proper scheduling and a few sidings half hourly service could
be done quite easily.


   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
From: lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: "The only sensible way to proceed"
Date: 22 Jul 1992 20:23:19 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: boom.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul22.191620.20875@ads.com> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
>
>as one who does this DAILY as a matter of necessity, i can tell you
>that this "connection" adds about one hour to my total travel time
>daily. 

I find my occasional East Bay -- San Jose Bart-Caltrain connection
needs the same hour on average, given the infrequent Caltrain service
at the times I travel. This makes me wonder, once the BART SFO
extension exists, and given timed connections (which can be made to
work well, the weekend and evening timed connections on BART are
working well in my experience for the Berkeley-SF off-hours commute),
will it be faster for most people to interchange at San Bruno between
Caltrain and BART, or to continue to 4th and Townsend and take MUNI?
Yes, the BART ROW is longer, but it is stopping at a lot of popular
places, has direct MUNI metro connections, and allows East Bay
commuters nonstop BART access. 

If the BART-Caltrain connection becomes the dominant path for most
commuters, Caltrain should consider turning around a percentage of
trains at San Bruno ...



Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1757 rec.railroad:5905
From: hill@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Rich Hill)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz-San Jose rail line revival?
Keywords: santa cruz suntan special rail line revival study diridon
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:24:15 GMT
Followup-To: ba.transportation
Organization: U.C. Davis - Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science

In article <1992Jul22.214517.16912@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>
>A RELATED DEVELOPMENT
>
>He also informs me that there is a private conern called Eccles & Eastern
>Railroad that is interested in rebuilding the line to haul aggregates
>(from the quarries) & tourists.  They are investigating whether or not it
>would make sense and whether they can get investors.  Apparently Eccles &
>Eastern RR thinks they might be able make money doing this.
>
Aren't these the same guys who are trying to restore SP 2706?  This engine was
hauled out of a Watsonville park a few years ago (1989) and now sits on a
siding in Santa Cruz (near Natural Bridges State Park).  The story I heard 
was that they wanted to restore this engine to pull tourists on the restored
line (or at least to Olympia).

BTW, I believe one of the members of Eccles & Eastern is Rick Hamman.  Take
a look at his book on railroads of the area - pretty neat stuff.  
(the title is "Central Coast Railroads" I think)

-Rich Hill
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1780 scruz.politics:96
From: fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,scruz.politics
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz-San Jose CalTrain?
Date: 24 Jul 1992 08:19:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (College Eight)
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Jul23.145711@wsl.dec.com> gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
>
>There is another option that I've heard seriously discussed
>by people who live in Santa Cruz.  It has to do with the destruction
>of Hwy 17 if Caltrans tries to widen it.  
 
Santa Cruz people are crazy.  Most of them are nice-crazy.  Some 
of them aren't.
 =Aaron=
-- 
Aaron Priven, aaronrp@ucscb.ucsc.edu or fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu
        "Men make history, but they do not do so under 
         conditions of their own choosing." -- Karl Marx
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1775 alt.activism:13399 ca.environment:748
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,alt.activism,ca.environment
Subject: Re: How much pollution from motor vehicles?
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:33:52 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

>	To do this calculation properly, one needs to compare cars to
>urban, suburban, and intercity railroad systems. However, I'm sure
>that cars will still lose :-)
>
>/Loren


The point of this was not to 'make a calculation', there are other
numerous areas that we can identify the hidden pollution cost.

Oh BTW I forgot to include;

20) excess heat.

Another point, I believe in the value of research and evaluation
of a problem... but judgement based upon feelings and appropriate
behavior are also valuable.

Use everything as though it were the only one.  

steve
Newsgroups: ba.transportation