HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed Carry
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:53:11 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Jul24.024029.26084@wam.umd.edu>, gisie@wam.umd.edu (Dr. Death) writes:
# I have a few avid shooting friends and each one of them respects the
# local laws EXCEPT for the fact that they both carry either a
# concealed firearm with them or a partially concealed firearm in their
# car.  They are not paranoid but would rather run the risk of getting
# in trouble for carry a loaded firearm rather than getting killed in
# a mugging, etc.  Now, after reading several gun magazines for several
# years, have come to conclude that although they always state "for
# those of you with concealed carry permits..." they actually are hinting
# that many people carry illegally.
# 
# My question is:
# 
# 	Do you carry without a permit?  Is it worth the risk of 
# getting caught carrying a concealed weapon while getting a traffic
# ticket?  One of my friends keeps his auto pistol on his front seat
# of his car so if he is pulled over he wont have it concealed.
# 
# I am not sure that these guys are not doing the right thing,
# and this will cause them more problems than what its worth.
# 
# Any input on why/why not you carry is greatl appreciated.
# 

Why, of course I carry without a permit!

AZ doesn't issue permits.

Nor do you need one for open carry or carrying in your vehicle*

* A loaded gun in your "means of transportation" must be in a 
holster, scabbard, case, glove box, OR storage compartment.  This
means it can be concealed, but it you must remove it from some
storage device before using is.  (Holding a gun in your hand
while in any means of transportation is illegal barring justificiation.)

(We're working on legalizing concealed carry, too.)

I carry because as a free man I have a right to do so and that right
carries with it certain obligations to my fellow man.


BTW, I am really confused about something: I've recently heard about
a growing problem in many large cities where the criminal runs up to
a car, smashes the window, then grabs a purse/brief case/whatever-valuable
is-on-the-seat, and runs.  With Phoenix being the 10th largest city
in the nation, how come that isn't happening here?


-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Air Weapons and the Olympics
Date: 28 Jul 92 03:34:40 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:

#....  In Free Pistol, the finalists are all on the range together,
#the range officer tells them to "Start", they have 90 (?) seconds to
#fire a shot, then all shots are scored and the results announced, then
#they go again.

My error.  Time limit is actually 75 seconds per shot for all finals
series scored on a shot-by-shot basis.  This includes free pistol,
air pistol and the rifle matches.  For centrefire/sport pistol the
final is two 5-shot "rapid fire" series (formerly known as "duelling",
the name was changed to avoid offending people), and for rapid-fire
pistol the final is two 4-second series.

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Magic Gun Theory
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:29:20 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University


Magic Gun!  Magic Gun!  That's easy you need a phaser ;-{).  Come
to think of it is such a thing theoretically possible?  
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sig P220 vs. Glock 21
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:24:22 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <9207240129.AA08891@news.cis.ohio-state.edu> rane+@CS.CMU.EDU (Aaron Hughes) writes:
#Perhaps you could explain further.

Ok, I thought it was obvious from previous discussions --
Some people at times have concern about a gun grabber or perhaps
a stupid visitor lifting the gun and putting his finger on the trigger.
With a loaded Glock, BANG!  With many other weapons in some conditions,
CLICK!  Sometimes that might be worth worrying about.
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AVOIDING GETTING MISTAKENLY SHOT
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:29:38 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <18979@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Jul19.061249.21042@athena.mit.edu> sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman) writes:
|> #impersoning an officer is prohibited, but if you carried the badge
|> #concealed, I don't see how anyone could argue you were trying to 
|> #impersonate an officer.
|> 
|> Oh, really?  What other purpose could you have in carrying such a badge?

I am surprised at you, Doug.

Perhaps he's a collector of badges.

It's illegal to impersonate an officer, and merely having a badge concealed on
your person is *not* impersonating an officer, nor does it show intent to
impersonate, any more than concealing a penis in your pants is committing rape,
or showing intent to commit rape.

Think "prior restraint."

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Wanted: rifle/pistol ->same ammo
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:12:34 GMT


Kevin Kadow writes:
#Can anybody suggest a good combo, or a handgun that fires cartridges that can
#be used in a semi-auto rifle, other than .22 rimfire?

Assuming the handgun is semi-auto as well,

1. In 9mm, the Iver Johnson M1 Carbine (9mm version), which uses High Power
magazines. The Marlin Model 9 Camp Carbine uses S&W 59-series magazines.

2. The original M1 Carbine in .30, and the Auto Mag III in the same 
chambering.

3. A modified M1 carbine in .45 Win Mag and a pistol such as the LAR
Grizzly in the same chambering.

4. Since Olympic Arms offers AR-15s in 10mm and .40 S&W, there are a
number of suitable handguns (to say the least).

5. Some of the .22LR M16 copies were chambered in .32 ACP.....

6. A FedOrd or Navy Arms 7.63mm Mauser Carbine paired with a Broomhandle
or Tokarev.

7. Further in 9mm, some of the so-called "assault pistol" makers offer
long gun versions of their firearms.


#[MODERATOR: The poster doesn't mention whether the pistol should be semi-auto
#necessarily, so those of us with an attitude are free to suggest an M1-Garand
#and T/C Contender in .30-'06 combo, right...?]

How about the Australian Automatic Arms "SAP" Semi Automatic Pistol, which
is essentially a stockless rifle with a 10" barrel (they were caught by
the Bush import ban, which only affected long guns, and made the best of it).
You can even use the same magazines as your AR-15 in 5.56mm.

Which reminds me - I forgot to mention the AR-15s in 9mm above.

Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 pistol
Date: 24 Jul 92 03:18:51 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <9207211813.AA03546@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> rhoten@a.cs.okstate.edu (rhoten r p) writes:
#Don't anyone miss the ad in the latest Handgunning
#for a .308 bolt action pistol.  A target is shown
#with a 10 shot, 9 inch group at 600 yards.  Wish I could
#do that well consistently with my match rifle.
#
#Oh yes, prices start at $1540.
#
#r. p. rhoten

While attending a handgun silhouette match, I watched a gent with a Wichita
.308win bolt handgun w/Iron Sights (I bet the above group was with a scope)
dial in on the rifle sil range rams.  These would be 500m from their line
and we guessed better than 600 yds. from his spot on the pistol line.  After
maxing the rear sight and finding the serration on the front sight to line
up with the top of the rear sight, went 8 for 10 of these critters.

A show stopper!!!!!!

Bill 	burge@qdeck.com
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AVOIDING GETTING MISTAKENLY SHOT
Date: 29 Jul 92 11:51:54 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Jul28.203242.7092@chpc.org> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
##In the People's Republic of Kalifornia, it can and does happen all the
##time.  This is the lawyer state.  Even if the shooting is justified;
##you can possibly look at your exposed carry or CCW permit being
##suspended or revoked pending an investigation.  Firearm being 
#
#In Massachusetts they will not only confiscate the permit; suspend or 
#revoke it (so that you do not have "licensed status" if you carry without the
#paper on you), but they will also come for all of your other guns to
#confiscate until, and if, you are cleared. 

Of course, if you had an unregistered one sealed behind a wall panel,
it might go unnoticed.  Sigh.  Yet another reason for weapons caching.
From: wjc@ll.mit.edu (Bill Chiarchiaro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .308 for 1000 yd. Matches
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:37:09 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington MA


In article <1992Jul22.212546.27830@informix.com>, infmx!gregm@uunet.UU.NET (Greg Mitchell) writes:
|> 
|> ...
|> 
|> I really should know the answer to this, being a pilot ( haven't been
|> flying in a few years though ).  As the air density decreases the speed
|> of sound increases.  Isn't this relation linerally proportional ? 
|> If I had my flight computer handy I'd know for sure.
|> 
|> ...
|> 


  According to tables of the U.S. Standard Atmosphere (1976), the
speed of sound decreases by about 2 meters per second (from 340.29 m/s
at sea level) for every 500 meters of increased altitude.  From about
11,000 meters to 21,000 meters altitude the speed is constant at about
295 m/s.

  At higher altitudes, your bullet suffers less drag, and the speed of
sound is lower.


73

Bill Chiarchiaro
wjc@ll.mit.edu
From: bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Combat Experience w/.45 ACP
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:29:25 GMT

Oft times, comments on this net are about GYSGT Carlos Hathcock's sniping
adventures in Vietnam.  Here's one that very few know about, but is probably
just as good as far as accuracy during combat is concerned.

A Navy SEAL Team was returning from a mission over North Vietnam in a chopper
when it got hit pretty bad.  The pilot and one crew member were killed and
the copilot was wounded.  Going into autorotation, the copilot managed to set
the chopper down in a clearing.  After landing, a few rounds of enemy fire
were starting to come in.  Seems the M60s were also damaged beyond use by
the crash landing and initial RPG hit, the only M16 fell out on the way down.
The only firearms left was M1911s.  

The remaining crew member was carrying a match conditioned M1911 and had a
few boxes of ammo.  As more enemy small arms fire started comming in, the
copilot and crew member also noted that the VC were comming out of the jungle
and approaching them; shooting as they came.  The crew member took out his .45
and took careful aim as he shot at each attacking VC.  About 30 minutes later
it was all over.  Between reloading magazines and radioing for rescue, the
copilot was pretty busy, but a rescue chopper finally arrived on the scene.

As the rescue chopper came in and landed, its crew noticed a lot of dead VC
laying around.  The downed helo's remaining crew were picked up and on their
way out, they counted the dead VC; 37 in all.  Their distances from the downed
helo were from 3 to about 150 yards; all shot by the crew member with his
M1911 .45 ACP.  About 80 rounds were fired by Petty Officer R.J. Thomas, a
member of the USN Rifle and Pistol Team.

Petty Officer Thomas was recommended for the Congressional Medal of Honor, but
by the time the recommendation got all the way up through the chain of
command, the recognition was reduced to the Navy Cross.

This incident has been cited this as the only known of example of top-level
combat marksmanship since SGT Alvin York's escapades in WWI.
From: steveha@microsoft.com (Steve Hastings)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hollowpoints illegal in N.J. ?
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:37:06 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Applications Division

In article <1992Jul27.154046.10961@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
#As far as mortality is concerned, where you are hit and how long it takes
#before treatment is initiated appear more important than what caliber
#handgun or what bullet design was used. However, I have no quantitative
#info in my files on mortality as a function of handgun bullet design so
#I am less certain about the mortality issue than about the morbidity issue.

Someone in a followup wondered if this means that it doesn't matter which
gun or ammo you use.  The answer is, of course, that it *does* matter.
You don't want to kill people; you want to *stop* them.  With even a .22
pocket gun you can put someone in the hospital, but he will stay on his
feet for a while and maybe kill you before he goes there.  Killing power
but not stopping power.

Someone asked for references about ACLU vs. hollowpoints; check out the
book _The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense_ by
Massad Ayoob.  In that book he tells of testifying against the ACLU in the
Northeast.  The way he tells it, he was instrumental in shooting down
(little pun there) the ACLU attempt to ban hollowpoints.  He testified
that:

1) Hollowpoints don't ricochet as much as roundnose or full-metal-jacket
ammo.  If you miss with a hollowpoint, it will probably deform and not
bounce around to hit an innocent bystander.

2) Non-hollowpoint bullets can hit innocent bystanders even if the shooter
hits his target; they can overpenetrate, exit the target, and go on to hit
someone.  This rarely happens with hollowpoints, and if it does the
hollowpoint usually has so little energy left it does no serious harm.

3) Hollowpoint bullets have more stopping power, without necessarily being
more lethal.  A suspect is better off being shot once with a hollowpoint
that stops him in his tracks than being shot repeatedly with
non-hollowpoint bullets: shot once with a hollowpoint he has one entry and
probably no exit wound, but being shot six times with non-hollowpoints he
will probably have six entry wounds, six exit wounds, and six wound tracks
through his torso (making him leak his lifeblood away like a sieve).  This
makes the objection to hollowpoint bullets as "too lethal" kind of ironic.

4) The silliest objection -- that hollowpoints don't meet the "Geneva
Convention" (actually the Hague Convention) about military ammo specs --
is absurd because cops don't operate on military rules (they don't get to
execute suspects who are not wearing a uniform, for example).  But in
addition, the roundnose ammo the ACLU wanted doesn't meet the conventions
either; only full-metal-jacket rounds do, and FMJ rounds are the worst
possible for police work (see reasons 1, 2, and 3 above).


I haven't heard anything recent about the ACLU trying to ban hollowpoints.
-- 
Steve "I don't speak for Microsoft" Hastings    ===^=== :::::
uunet!microsoft!steveha  steveha@microsoft.uucp    ` \\==|
From: PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU (BILL PATE, ADMIN. SERVICES, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: grab-and-run
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:37 GMT

#BTW, I am really confused about something: I've recently heard about
#a growing problem in many large cities where the criminal runs up to
#a car, smashes the window, then grabs a purse/brief case/whatever-valuable
#is-on-the-seat, and runs.  With Phoenix being the 10th largest city
#in the nation, how come that isn't happening here?

I saw a news program recently about that problem. The commentator said the
car rental agencies at the Miami airport had removed the identifing decals
from their cars because their customers were being cased as 'out-of-towners' 
and better hits. The accompanying video showed a grab-and-run in action. 
The perp put a purse under his sweatshirt and really hauled it out of there.

Pardon my insensitivity here, but my thoughts while watching the video were
"wouldn't it be fun to have a grenade in that purse, with the pin on a wire 
 attached to the car seat?"
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  Wanted: rifle/pistol ->same ammo
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:36:53 GMT

[Specified to be non-.22 LR.]

Have I got a combo for you!

The new .45 Winchester Magnum version of the M1 Carbine (see ads in recent
Shotgun Newses) and a Wildey pistol in .45 Win Mag....

Would this be a case where the pistol weighed more than the rifle? :-)

I guess, if you can't get or can't affort the Wildey, you could drop
down to a Grizzly in .45 Win Mag... But I figure I might as well start
off at the top... :-)

Hmmm... There is also a .45-70 revolver and a .45-70 rifle; I'm not sure
in this case whether I'd specify a single-shot rifle or a lever-action
repeater... 

As you can see, I tend to like large firearms... I guess we could always
go to the .50 BMG single-shot pistol (discussed several times on the net --
a custom job made by a shooter in Hawaii) along with a .50 BMG Barrett
or one of the other .50 long-range rifles... Now we need a trailer to
haul the combo, not to even mention the ammo... :-)

Regards, Will
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: revolver handling
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:57:40 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <199207291427.AA01653@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) writes:
#lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley) writes:
##
##tjohnson@xenon.stanford.edu (Ted C. Johnson) writes:
###  [ asks about keeping an empty chamber below the hammer ] 
##
##I would have no compunctions about carrying a GP-100 with all chambers
##loaded.  However, if a revolver is a "house gun" which is kept constantly
##loaded, the admonition about keeping an empty chamber under the hammer
##should still be observed as a safety precaution in the event of a fire.
##One hates even to consider such things, but cartridges can discharge as
##a result of the heat, and if a round is in the chamber under the hammer,
##it can fire through the barrel just as if the trigger had been pulled.
##The explosion of rounds not in line with the barrel will merely blow the
##gun apart, posing relatively little risk to firefighters and neighbours.
#
#What?  I don't think that the bullet will care if there's a barrel in front
#of it or not, the only loss from discharging a round from the second cylinder
#would be accuracy.  (which doesn't much matter in this situation!)

Am I missing something here?  I would think that the bullet in the round
in the chamber diametrically opposed to the chamber behind the barrel
(this is, of course, assuming an even-number-shooter, like six) would
be deeply concerned to find itself confronted by the revolver frame.

With a bullet so obstructed, I would expect six-digit pressures to
occur promptly, followed by a rapid change in gun size.

But I may be missing something.
#
#Makes tons of sense if you just think about it, the cylinder has to take the 
#full pressure of discharge, and the back of the frame will be tough enough
#to hold the brass in place.  The only thing the barrel will do is spin the
#bullet for you and keep the pressure up while the powder burns completely.
#(Actually, is this even an issue in revolvers?  Wouldn't most of the pressure 
#be lost after the bullet was in the barrel?)
#
#If you can't just see this empirically, I can give one data point -- a friend
#of mine had a fit of dyslexia while reloading his 44 Magnum, instead of 12gr
#he loaded it up with 21.  (lucky to be alive, I know and he knows) 
#The concussion was extreme enough to touch off the next round over, leaving
#two .44" holes in the target -- one dead on the center X, the other about 4"
#to the right and 6" down.
#
#(For the morbidly curious, the top half of the cylinder was gone, the top
#bar from the frame came back at him, but only cut his hair, not his scalp.
#Minor cuts on his hands and arms, and a funny haircut.)

Because I _am_ morbidly curious, could you give us the manufacturer of the
revolver?
#
#--Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU
#


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: gt9989a@prism.gatech.edu (John Martin Chapman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: ammo calibers ?!
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:40:53 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


I'm by no means an expert, but I'll offer what I know.  The primary concern is  that you don't mix up different types of ammo.  Here's where it gets confusing   
Just because 9mm = .38 doesn't mean that they are the same round.   Any         experienced shooter knows that a .38 round is significantly longer than a 9mm.
It is, though, the same diameter - just don't try to shoot a .38 in a 9mm pistol.  Many other rounds have the same diamter as well, as you have noted. For      example, .380 is the same diameter as .38, 9mm, and surprisingly .357, but if   you looked at each of these, it would be obvious that no two are alike.
Another example : 10mm and .40.   Same diameter, but the 10mm is almost twice   as long ( and it has a hefty kick, too - ouch.)   The only way to really        get a grip on the differences is to go to a range and shoot some with as many   different calibres as you can.   I hope this helped some.

                                         John
 


 

-- 
John Martin Chapman
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt9989a
Internet: gt9989a@prism.gatech.edu
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "Puff the Magic Dragon"
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:50:29 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


"Puff the Magic Dragon" was a C-130 cargo plane, specifically refitted
to perform ground-attack duties.  

Weaponry typically coonsisted of:

Three (3) 20mm GE Gatling canon (max. rate of fire: 6000 RPM)
Two   (2) 40mm Bofors fully-automatic AA canon.
One   (1) 105mm howitzer (probably, only on a few)

All weapons were mounted so that they fired out of the aircraft's port
side (for the nautically impaired, that's the left side); in firing
misions, the aircraft would basically circle the target point and rain
fire.

Does anyone have any corrections to this?

--
David Winters  
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu OR winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

          Illigitimi non carborundum.
From: preddy@physics.orst.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Question for single-action fans
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:37:31 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research, NY

I have a question for single-action revolver fanatics:

I am thinking of trading my Blackhawk .357 in for the Super B
.44 magnum.  I've gotten quite good with it over the years in
the sense of being able to pop off rounds quickly and fairly 
accurately, but lately my concerns have been more toward personal
defense.  Would it be foolish to give up my ability to handle 
the .375 for the sake up the more lethal .44?  Or is upgrading 
to the .44 mag beating an already dead horse? (no pun intended)

Thanks.