From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: John Haugh's Brain redux (was - Re: Clinton has won...watch your
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 23:50:32 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
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fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: Sorry, but whether we have the techonology to remove it intact is
: irrelevant once you start wanting to treat it as a person violating
: property rights rather than as an undesired growth in the mother's
: body.

I never said it should be treated as a "person" (whatever that means), I'm
merely saying that her right to control the contents of her womb take 
precedence over it's right to gestate there.  If it could be removed intact
and transplanted elsewhere, I suspect we would do that rather than dismembering
it.

: It's rather like saying, "Gee, I have this tenant I want to
: evict and I'm only 5'4", so the only way I can get them out of there
: is to shoot them."  It still isn't legal.

The reason that sounds silly is because that's NOT the only way to get a
tenant out of there.  But trying to arbitrarily "justify" that your tenant
is not a human being would be equally silly.

: >No, but then I don't propose doing that when you walk into my house either.
: 
: Well then, I suggest you either be prepared to commit perjury or to
: serve time for murder, because once you invite me in I don't think you
: can legally use deadly force to remove me unless I'm threatening you.
: Of course, neither can I legally resist leaving, but you have to call
: a cop to remove me.

Wait a minute.  First you said I need a court order.  Now you say I just need
a cop.  I don't need either.  I can call 10 of my buddies over and we can 
pick you up and carry you out.  The point is, I can remove you from my house
without killing you.  You can't remove a  <24 week (or so) fetus without it
dying as a result.

: Oh, no.  She invited it in; she just didn't want it to stay.  If she
: hadn't 'invited' it, it wouldn't be there (unless she was raped).

This would only be true if she intended to get pregnant, and then changed her
mind after she became pregnant.  I doubt this is a common occurrence.  Your
statement is like saying that if I leave my window open, I have invited you
into my house.

: But it puts you into a position where you can't legally perform an
: abortion without first calling the police, getting court orders, etc. 

Not really.  It's a question of absolute domain over one's body and what it's
used for.  Why should I be required to provide biological life support to 
another organism, whether they fit somebody's arbitrary criteria for "human" 
or not?  If you crawl in my open window, I don't have to feed you until you
feel like leaving.  And you're definitely a human being (I think).

: Sorry, but that's not the case.  She invited the sperm in; she just
: didn't like what they did once they got there.

She DIDN'T invite the fertilized egg to implant into her uterus.  It's two 
completely separate things.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"Look, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a
 system of government"
Newsgroups: tx.politics