HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Subject: Re: xians here
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:51:24 GMT

In <1992Jul27.123940.26287@njitgw.njit.edu> rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich) writes:

>>I doubt he needs Christians to make him think he looks good...
>>
>	If this statement is meant to infer some kind of pomposity on my part,
>I must say you are mistaken.  I do not view myself as any "Champion of Satanism"
>or anything.  I simply offered my counterviews and opinions against those of
>Evan Marshall.  I have received support for this, but I never demanded it, nor
>even asked for it.  If my posts come across to some as logical and well-
>reasoned, but insipid and pompous to others, so be it.  They are merely my
>opinions.  You, however, have given us no opinions of your own, with the
>exception character judgement against me.

I must apologize - I didn't mean to infer pomposity on his part.  I meant to
make it plain that it is my opinion he was behaving pompously.  It is not that
I am judging his character, either.  I simply expressed an opinion about his
remarks in the previous message.

>              Arguments with [christians] actually only reinforce
>[Satanism's] points against THEIR god.

I still have yet to see in what way.  Mr. Rich is right about one thing,
though; there is very little on this newsgroup that tells readers alot about
satanism.  So far I've been defending Christianity, but I'd love nothing
better than to go on the offensive.  For to me satanism is the worship of Satan
or adherance to the philosophy of Satan.  Since Satan is popularly known
to be the advocate of all that is evil, corrupt and wrong in the world, I
find it difficult to understand why any reasoning, consenting adult would
suddenly find themselves wanting to become a part of this.

>  I have no interest in seeing my views tempered by an organized religion

Does organized religion "temper" views or does it provide a larger forum for
new ideas to be discussed?  Either way, I believe satanism to be fairly well
organized - if you will, a well-organized cult.

>BTW, You really didn't make it clear which religion you yourself subscribe to.
>Which side of the Fence of Eternal Damnation do you stand on?

I don't think my religious orientation is particularly relevant.  But I'll
say this; I don't call it the Fence of Eternal Damnation.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
|(roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca)	 | 410-424 River Avenue         |
|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
|The University of Manitoba	 | R3L 0C6   PH#: (204) 478-1744|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: jwi@world.std.com (Jazzman)
Subject: Seeking Satan in my heart
Organization: Nexus
Distribution: alt.satanism
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:15:48 GMT

I have recently been introduced to Satanism through the help of another
netter.  I have performed several rites by myself and now feel the force
of beautiful Satan enveloping me.  I seek to learn more than what books
such as "The Satanic Bible" can teach.   Thus, I am reaching out to you,
my fellow brothers and sisters in darkness.  Reaching out to make contact
and to seek your advice and wisdom so that I may happily enjoy the
wonderful pleasures of the darkest of darkness!

                    -John

PS: This is a serious post.  Also, I would be particularly interested in
hearing from people in the Boston/New England region.
From: rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: xians here
Date: 24 Jul 92 04:00:21 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


	Well, since discussion seems to have gotten around to whether or not
to allow xians here, I must cast a vote for YES.  My reasons are as follows:
	1) Breaks up the usual "My Satanism is better than yours, naah naah
naah" debates.
	2) We don't want to stoop to their level and censor dissenting views.
	3) They make us look good.

	Remember, this newsgroup is frequented by non-Satanists.  Our own
resident christian soldier, evan marshall, has done more to make Satanism look
good than I ever could.  I find that the xians that do frequent here help us
to reinforce our points against christianity.
	They are predominantly closed-minded, bigoted individuals.  While they
may or may not be representative of the norm, they go a long way towards making
the Satanist arguments valid.

					Raymond H. Rich
					"And I saw a path to Hell,
					 Even from the gates of heaven..."
						- John Bunyan
						  Pilgrim's Promise
From: marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Satan
Date: 30 Jul 92 11:18:35 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <kgqPoB2w164w@cyberden.uucp>, moon!cyberden!impmat@well.sf.ca.us writes:
> All Satanists are Christians.  All Satanists believe in a higher power.  
> Most Satanists are painfully conventional and uninteresting.  I am not a 
> Christian.  Therefore I can't be a Satanist.  In order to be a Satanist 
> you must believe in God.  For the most part people who can allow 
> themselves to believe in God are boring and conventional.  This is why 
> most Satanists are boring and predictable.  People who believe in Social 
> Darwinism are not neccessarily Satanists.  They tend to be a little more 
> interesting than Satanists(Christians).  Good Night.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
>    |       /         |\
>    | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N       [ moon!cyberden!impmat@well.sf.ca.us ]

The pre-requisite  of being a Christian is  having FAITH  in God.  How many
Satanists put their faith in God?

The above statement  about satanists  being Christians in ignorant.
From: marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: QUESTIONS
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:24:44 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

I have many questions now.  First which is WHY?  Why have you forsaken,
not-followed, or not cared to think about --- God?

How is the entity, Satan, involved with satanism?  Is he a figure of worship, a
god, etc.?

If he is your god, then why deny the existance of God the Father or Christ?

Is this all a struggle between light and dark?

What books are to be believed (or are we all just lost atheists daring to
imagine false gods)?


These are just a few that I could think of right now.  More will follow.

Evan Marshall
marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: rdr@panix.com (Reuben Radding)
Subject: Re: You're all missing the point...
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 06:24:58 GMT
Organization: Disorganization Datorganization

In <Bs873K.M8r@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:


>	Be rational. Believing in things is not going to help you any more than
>you would be helped otherwise. If you need answers to such questions as: where
>did the universe come from, & what happens after I die; turn to philosophy, 
>don't take the easy (mentally) way out and subscribe to a religion (or cult, 
>it makes no difference to me what they call it). And using circular reasoning
>to justify your beliefs to justify your actions is rather idiotic and self-
>demeaning. If you cannot get a life (I can't), at least get a mind. And that
>goes for both of you! (Fundies and Satanists).




Satanism IS a philosophy you presumptuous dunce.

I could go point by point with your favorite philosophy and
give you the Satanic viewpoint any day--IF you convince me
you're worth my time.

Assuming philosophy is what you study there in Indy, maybe you can explain
"circular reasoning" to the rest of us.

--thanx for the tip,

-R
 
-- 
================================================================
|  Reuben Radding         rdr@panix.com       cmcl2!panix!rdr  |
|==============================================================|
| ******************* Marrou / Lord in 1992 ****************** |
From: penner@acsu.buffalo.edu (Nichola J. Penner)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Sin to Heaven? NO.
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:52:40 GMT
Organization: UB

rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich) writes:

>D  Okay, you bigot, you consider all the other faiths of the world (and there
>are many) to be living lives of sin and death regardless of their altruistic
>accomplishments.  You just prove that religious discrimination is still alive
>and well in this world and that is truly sad.  How long before all you
>christian holy soldiers take up arms and back your prejudice with force?  BTW,
>it seems your bigotry also includes Judaism, as they do not follow Christ.
						 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

hey, hey, hey!!! don't forget jews for jesus!!!! :^) ("why be one or the
other, when you can be both!" :^) )


	nicki
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: The Bible - why oh why?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:05:07 GMT


	Attention all christian flamers: It's just a book. A good book, yes.
Fun to read. (I liked Lord of the Rings better, though; Sauron is much niftier
than Satan). The answer to why you exist, and why nature works like it does
cannot be found in a book written by people. Christ was a person, (if he
actually existed), not some Godson. How do I know this? Because if Christ was
the son of God, & the Bible was written by him, (or from his teachings), &
God is perfect, (always right), - than the sun and everything else goes around th
the earth. (Don't ask how do you know or request quotes, because I haven't got
the exact reference and it is in there.) Listen, people! Life is scary, it is
the human condition to question every precept of their existance, most of you
were raised christian and have deeply ingrained LEARNED beliefs, but you can
overcome them. Christianity is a crutch, a useful one, but it is only for
giving hope to the otherwise hopeless, and righteousness to the insecure. 
The Bible says that the meek shall inherit the earth, well that says something
about the people who wrote it. Give up your crutches, embrace science &
philosophy. And if you won't, or can't, assume for 1 minute that God is dead.
That is the least you can do, for the cause of logic & reason, the true tools
of humanity.

								-jsalter

			"Cogito, Ergo Sum." - Descartes
			<I think, therefore I am.>

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: satan
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 21:34:44 GMT

It seems to me that from what I have read here, most satanists
are not realists.Satan is a direct part of Christian mythology
like it or not.Not believing in God would deny Satan his only
goal, to corrupt and destroy any and all of God's iterests and
revenge his fall.
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: ibarrett@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (I G Barrett)
Subject: Lavey's Book - Information Wanted
Summary: Trying to get hold of a copy!
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:18:01 GMT

I was wondering if Lavey's book or something similar (perhaps a list of the
beliefs/ideas stated therein) was available in electronic form.  As far as 	I'm aware The Satanic Bible is still banned in this country and I'm a little
wary about ordering a copy from the publisher.  Does anyone know what goes
on the outside of a package from a publisher, i.e. does it have full details
about what book is contained therein?

Any assistance on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Swan
brrian04@uctvax.uct.ac.za

Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: Sin to Heaven?  NO.
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:10:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.224215.5691@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>A  Just read any bible.
>A  (well except one, the only one with the right answers)
>
>C  Read the Bible that God the Almighty inspired.
> 	
>D  OK, which one.   The Koran, Old Testament, New Testament, Dianetics,
>D  what makes yours so special?  And don't give me that "One True God" bullshit.
>D  Unless you can back it up with tangible proof, I don't want to hear it.
> 
>THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS OF THE BIBLE ARE GOD INSPIRED.
[...]
>THE WORD OF GOD (THE BIBLE) SAYS THAT IT WAS WITH HIM WAITING TO BE SPOKEN IN
>JOHN 1:1,2 "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE
>WORD WAS GOD.  HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING."  ALSO THE WORD SAYS THAT IT
>WAS INSPIRED IN 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD,
>AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION 
>IN RIGHTEOUSNESS"

But what about the Book of Fred, which I found on a street corner last
week, that says, right on the cover page "The Book of Fred, written at
the explicit request of Almighty Mumbo Jumbo, God of Gods, Lord of the
Universe, and Man About Town".

Can you say "Circular Reasoning"? I knew you could. You can't prove a
book is divine by quoting the book. Anyone can claim a book was
written by god, and any book can have the words "Written By God" or
"Written at god's request" printed in it. This would be obvious to
anyone who could reason, a faculty that religion explicitly prohibits.

So, I repeat the previous request: give us some tangible proof, or
begone.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
From: lfoul@terapin.com (Jake McClean)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Sin to Heaven?  NO.
Date: 25 Jul 92 12:06:24 PST
Organization: BBS

>>If you aren't for Him, then you are against Him.  Simple "hot or cold"
>thinking;thinking;
>
>no lukewarm allowed.  Is that so hard to understand?


I can't say I agree with your reasoning there, guy.  I am not "against" your
version of "Him", but I do not accept him as my version of "Him".  That makes
me evil?  That will send me to hell to face eternal damnation?  *IF* there is a
"god" somewhere, and this "god" did in fact create humans (not necessarily in
his own image, but that doesn't matter here), then it was this "god" who also
gave us the ability to reason, and the ability to make our OWN decisions, and
our OWN beliefs.  Why would this "god" then let us go off to hell for not
choosing "him" as our one and only sacred belief?  I have a feeling that
somewhere along the line, the Bible has been misinterpreted, ere xdtians tso to
have this "christian attitude" we all know and love.  <smirk>i No lukewarm,
you say?  I must have hot or cold?  Fine.  I'm not thirsty.

lfoul@terapin.com
From: valerie@ucsd.edu (Valerie Polichar)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: THIS NEWSGROUP
Date: 23 Jul 1992 21:58:58 GMT
Organization: UCSD Network Operations
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblack.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Jul23.054437.3206@panix.com>, rdr@panix.com (Reuben Radding) writes:
[...deleted complaint about the followers of Jesus]
> Also, perhaps we should be contacting the sysadmins at the sites of
> the offending xtians and request that their accounts be terminated.
> It would seem only fair.

Oh dear, Reuben.  If this is the only sort of offensive action you can come up with,
I am indeed disappointed; surely a satanist should have deeper resources.  I can
think of a number... but actually, the exchange is sort of amusing and Mr. Marshall
is trying rather hard, for a Christian, to figure out what is going on...

All hail Pan!  And damn the torpedoes.

Valerie Polichar

---------------------------------------
"Is it too much to ask?  I want a comfortable bed that doesn't hurt my back,
 food to fill me up, and warm clothes, and all that stuff... Shouldn't I have this,
 shouldn't I have all of this, *and* PASSIONATE KISSES from you..."
 -Lucinda Williams
From: marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:44:57 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Jul30.21430.2802@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>, hastur@miskatonic.edu (Hastur) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.122444.5752@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>>I have many questions now.  First which is WHY?  Why have you forsaken,
>>not-followed, or not cared to think about --- God?
> 
> Oh, this is really quite simple. Because we find your religion revolting.
> Personally, I'd rather suffer for an eternity than submit to your puny
> mindless god (but that really isn't the choice we have to make anyway).

Then if you have your mind set on suffering, then go ahead.

> The xian bible is full of lies. Sure it is laced with some truth and
> historical fact, but the most insidious lies are the ones laced with
> various facts and half truths, but are still lies in every essential way.

The Bible is not full of lies.  You just refuse to believe it's truths.

> Geez, every time I hear one of these xians going on about how
> we should become the slaves of the white vampyre, I want to puke. 

Interesting symbolism...  Well, go ahead and puke then.  Should I help you with
a good salvation story?  How about a nice testamony?  It's so nice to see how
many of you blind individuals will be blinded by the father of lies.  Satan has
made you realize the great power of your own self?  He's lied and cheated you
out of everthing that is worth anything!

> jesus is a fag
> his daddy is a nag
> his bible is a shitty rag
> all hail SATAN!

The devil is a liar
You're gonna get burned
The devil is a liar
It's time you learn
The devil is a liar
liar
liar...

> The path to salvation does not involve becoming a slave that licks
> the boots of the xian god of death who poses as a god of life, but through
> realizing your SELF in the context of Satanic enlightenment.

As YOU blindly lick the stench and vomit off the feet of a hooved ass.

> Your time is gone, xians. Your god is dead, irrelevant and impotent in
> this Satanic age. xianity is nothing more than a sick pathetic piece of
> nostalgia for a religion of the past. Xianity died from internal
> corruption and decadence long ago. This is our age, the age of Satan.

You make me see how wicked this generation is and just how ALIVE the God of
Hosts is.  All you see is your own spoils.

> 666
> Your "friend" Hastur

Carrying the Word that is sharper than any double-edged sword!
In Christ,
Evan
From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: xians here
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:19:45 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In <1992Jul24.040021.13124@njitgw.njit.edu> rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich) writes:


>	Well, since discussion seems to have gotten around to whether or not
>to allow xians here, I must cast a vote for YES.  My reasons are as follows:
>	1) Breaks up the usual "My Satanism is better than yours, naah naah
>naah" debates.
>	2) We don't want to stoop to their level and censor dissenting views.
>	3) They make us look good.

I doubt he needs Christians to make him think he looks good...

>	Remember, this newsgroup is frequented by non-Satanists.  Our own
>resident christian soldier, evan marshall, has done more to make Satanism look
>good than I ever could.  I find that the xians that do frequent here help us
>to reinforce our points against christianity.

Hmmmmm...as a satanist, I think he'd mean to reinforce [satanism's] points
against God.

>	They are predominantly closed-minded, bigoted individuals.  While they
>may or may not be representative of the norm, they go a long way towards making
>the Satanist arguments valid.

Although it probably isn't necessary for the majority of readers, I'll point
out the gaping hypocrisy (sp?) in this remark.  Making negative generalizations
of this nature is itself "closed-minded" and "bigoted" isn't it?  It isn't
too hard for me to believe that this Evan Marshall has done more to credit
satanism than Mr. Rich; God only knows it's because of people like Mr. Rich
that satanism is in little danger of achieving anything more than "cult"
status.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
|(roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca)	 | 410-424 River Avenue         |
|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
|The University of Manitoba	 | R3L 0C6   PH#: (204) 478-1744|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
From: roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca (R Ross Holder Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: You're all missing the point...
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:53:50 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In <1992Jul31.062458.29016@panix.com> rdr@panix.com (Reuben Radding) writes:

>In <Bs873K.M8r@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> joshua salter <jsalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:

>>	Be rational. Believing in things is not going to help you any more than
>>you would be helped otherwise. If you need answers to such questions as: where
>>did the universe come from, & what happens after I die; turn to philosophy, 
>>don't take the easy (mentally) way out and subscribe to a religion (or cult, 
>>it makes no difference to me what they call it). And using circular reasoning
>>to justify your beliefs to justify your actions is rather idiotic and self-
>>demeaning. If you cannot get a life (I can't), at least get a mind. And that
>>goes for both of you! (Fundies and Satanists).

Any philosohpy that attempts to answer the question "what happens after I die"
is a religion in my book.  I'm not sure what he's thinking, exactly, but
it sounds to me like he doesn't belive in a God and feels that any pro-faith
argument is circular.  But what about if I say:

Given:
The universe was created.   The universe is ordered.  Patterns of order are
caused by intelligence.  We label that intelligence God.

Therefore:
God created the universe.

This "logic" fails because it is the victim of a fallacy; it is
not proveable.  However, I don't see how it's circular.

Note: Further discussion on this topic should be referred to alt.atheism.

>Satanism IS a philosophy you presumptuous dunce.

>I could go point by point with your favorite philosophy and
>give you the Satanic viewpoint any day--IF you convince me
>you're worth my time.

It's interesting to hear this coming from a self-proclaimed satanist.  He
moreso than others should recognize that nobody's perfect :-).

If discussion about satanism or any other topic is to be useful at all to
anyone, shouldn't we a be a little more tolerant of mistakes?  I don't
mean to advocate blind stupidity, but the occasional error won't waste too
much time - even time as precious as that of Mr. Radding.

>Assuming philosophy is what you study there in Indy, maybe you can explain
>"circular reasoning" to the rest of us.

Actually that isn't so bad an idea.  Mr. Salter?

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|R. Ross Holder, Jr.             | Home Address:                |
|(roholdr@ccu.umanitoba.ca)	 | 410-424 River Avenue         |
|Department of Philosophy	 | Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada   |
|The University of Manitoba	 | R3L 0C6   PH#: (204) 478-1744|
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.satanism