From: tony@tex.nde.swri.edu (Tony Benitez)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:50:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

In article <adams.703430168@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>tony@tex.nde.swri.edu (Tony Benitez) writes:
>
>>In article <adams.703364630@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>I don't think Scriputre bears this out.  Specifically, Jesus has said that
>>>He will separate the people, the goats from the sheep.  The sheep will be
>>>saved.  Additionally, in the verses I quoted, He says some who proclaim Him
>>>Lord and prophesy in His name will be turned away and disowned.  In the
>>>first, He also states that the kingdom is to come, and will be inherited at
>>>the second coming...
>>>
>>>These verses are : Matthew 7:21-23 and 25:31-46.
>
>>Matt 7:21-23 is talking about false prophets in the Kingdom. You may ref othe
>>places in the scriptures where False prophets occur. 2 Corinth 11:26 Paul
>>speaks of them as False Brethren. etc.
>This is reading quite a bit into the Scripture that I don't think is there.
>Yes, there will be false teachers in the Church, and even an Anti-Christ
>who will cause many believers to fall away.  But I still stand by the claim
>that the kingdom is not here and now.  Jesus will return to establish his
>kingdom.
> 
>>Matthew 25:31 is definitly talking about the final judgement. sheep and goats.
>>Sheep are sheep, Goats are goats.
>But there is no definition of what a sheep is, and what a goat is.  There
>are no requirements or characteristics assigned.
>
>>If God has an elect family (I challenge you to prove that he does not) then
>also >there must be the non-elect. ELECT=SHEEP, NON-ELECT=GOATS.
>>There goes the old "God loves everybody" theme out the window.
>I disagree.  Firstly, if you claim that he has an elect family (other than
>the Hebrews who were the original 'chosen people') I want to see Scriptural
>backing for this.  You can't simply make a statement and as me to prove
>that it's not true.  Please provide the references.
>
>I still stand by the claim that God loves everyone and wants to save
>everyone.  I draw this from Jeuss' teaching on love for enemy.  For even
>the sinners love their family and friends...
>
>>Therein is why all manner of men (homosexuals, deviants, fornicators,
>>idolitors) cannot enter the Kingdom. (these are excluded scripturally),
>>but will be eternally saved by Gods Mercy.
>Firstly, Paul wrote those words, and in Greek, I understand that at best,
>homosexuals is a translation of a combination of two Greek words, one
>meaning 'soft', the other probably being male prostitute.
>
>Secondly, you just contradicted yourself.  If they are excluded
>Scripturally, how are they saved by God's eternal mercy?  One way or the
>other.  If they are saved, they are saved.  And hence, you cannot condemn
>them.
>
>>Jesus said that there would be some standing here "who would not taste death"
>>until the Kingdom would come.  Are they still alive?  The Kingdom of Heaven
>>is HERE NOW.
>In John 18:36, Jesus says that His Kingdom is not of this world, and that
>if it were, His servents would resuce Him from Pilate.  But to counter your
>point, Jesus also says that "He who believes in me will never die."  If we
>use the same idea of death, then no believer has ever died, right?
>
> -Steve

Tony Replies:

Let's talk about Sheep:

John 10:14 - I am the good shepard, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:16 - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I
	     must bring and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one
	     fold and one shepard. (bringing in Gentiles-Ref:Isah 42)
John 10:26 - But ye believ not, because ye are not of my sheep.
John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follw me.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish,
	     neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Sounds to me like Jesus has some sheep and knows who they are and CANNOT lose
them. He also knows who ARE NOT his sheep.  He gives his sheep eternal life
which is an unconditional gift. Jesus also said that would not lose one, but
raise them up at the last day.  Sounds to me like Eternity is secured for the
sheep of the fold.  Those who are not his sheep are dealt with in Matt 25:31.

Let's talk about the ELECT:

Romans 9:11- For the children (Essau & Jacob) being not yet born, neither
	     having done good or evil, that the purpose of ELECTION might
	     stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Romans 9:13- Jacob have I loved, Essau have I hated.

And then continues the scriptures which verify that we are the seed of promise.
We were "chosen before the foundation of the world" and it is GRACE, not our
works (acceptance,belief,etc) that secures our ETERNAL Salvation.  Notice that
God has made a choice between these two boys before they were born - one to
his mercy and favor, the other to rejection and damnation.  Paul even tells
us that God will have mercy on whom he will.  We are not even to ask "why has
thou made us thus?"

These scriprures are dealing with Eternal Salvation.  The other salvation
is the "timely" salvation open to those of his sheep who press into the
Kindom of Heaven.  This is where choice, belief, acceptance, truth, deny thy
self make all the difference.  Few, however, find themselves on the heavenly
road in their lives here in this world.  The major purpose of the scriptures
is to give comfort to Gods' people here in this life.  The Church is Jesus'
instrument of comfort and salvation from a world of sin and grief.  It is
the place where poor needy sinners come to thank their God for that love
which only he could have planted in their hearts. 

I find absolutely no comfort in waiting around for a Kingdom at the end time.
What comfort can Gods' chosen flock obtain in waiting for the Kingdom?
We wait for the resurrection, and the glorious bliss of Heaven and imortal
glory where we will be with Jesus forevermore.  The Kingdom of Heaven is here
and it is in the true and living Church of God, of which the "gates of hell
shall not prevail"

Therfore, there is NO contradiction in that Deviant behavior (however described)
is not accepted in the Kingdom, it's not.  They miss the joys of their "timely"
salvation here in this life by their errant ways, but as the above scriptures
verify, NO MAN can pluck Jesus' sheep out of his hand.  Therein is all mens'
hope who groan and cry out "Abba Father"  The adoption of Sons is theirs, they
just don't press into the Kingdom of our glorious Father.

your servant, tony@tex		My belief, not my employers.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc