From: john@anasazi.com (John R. Moore)
Subject: Re: Showering in the Military (Re: Gays in the Military..what nobody is talking about: )
Reply-To: john@anasazi.com
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Arizona USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:41:20 GMT

Keywords: 

In article <1992Dec30.193757.7675@microsoft.com> fritzs@microsoft.com (Fritz Sands) writes:
]In article <1992Dec30.043011.2287@anasazi.com> john@anasazi.com writes:
]| 
]| Because coercion does not make people like or respect each other - both
]| of which are important in the maintenance of unit cohesion.
]
]Putting people who do not like and respect each other in a position
]in which they need to work together to survive tends to focus the mind.

It tends to create resentment, and often attempts to get rid of the
person who is "different".
]
]IMO, nonsense like Tailhook will happen until women are allowed to
]be fighter pilots -- a male pilot whose life depends on a female
]pilot will have different attitudes about women.
No, you would still have Tailhook. The women who the men know may not
be the targets, but other women would.

]| Yes, it could, except that gayness is a behavioral trait, which is
]| directly related to interpersonal relationships, while the other issues
]| you raise are not.
]
]Religion has no relationship to interpersonal relationships??? I'm glad
]you said it, and not me.

Not in the same way, except in extreme cases. If you have an extreme
bible thumper in the military, who refuses to quit harrassing people,
that person would also be a threat to discipline and would himself
get disciplined or kicked out.
]
]| ]Purportedly, the military trains young men and women to be responsible
]| ]enough to fight, kill, and die together; to use weapons of awesome power;
]| ]to survive brutality and torture if captured.  I think that, in all of
]| ]this character-building, the military could sort of figure out how to
]| ]drill in a little tolerance.
]| 
]| Oh my, another social engineer.
]
]Nah -- electrical.

Me too, but I know which fields my engineering training works in.
]
]|  The military doesn't just train young men
]| and women to be responsible - it selects those who are and hands them
]| the responsibility.
]
]Huh?  Are you saying that the military only takes incredibly mature
]18-year-olds who want to blow things up?

I am saying that it has selection criteria for individuals that seek to
maximize the performance of the military while minimizing special
requirements. For example, tall overweight people aren't chosen as
fighter pilots, and schizophrenics aren't admitted at all (if their
condition is known).
]
]|  While training may have some effect on people's
]| attitudes and behavior, it doesn't allow one to mold behavior to one's
]| desire.
]
]What do you think boot camp is for?

I have been to boot camp. That experience is one of the factors behind
my statements. Boot camp has SOME effect on attitudes and behavior
(considerable effect in certain areas), but it doesn't result in
significant personality or attitude changes in my experience.

]Please tell me the behavioral differences between gays, bis, and straights,
]and how those differences are more important than the differences between
]blacks and whites.
]
Well, gays are attracted to, and have sex with, others of the same
sex. Gays do not normally participate in sexual adventures with
others of the opposite sex. Since many in the military are of the
age and attitude where sex and sexual orientation is VERY important, this
is a significant area.

]I think you are saying that, for example, a gay Irishman will be more
]behaviorally different from a straight Irishman than either will be from,
]for example, a Congolese of any sexual orientation.  I think that you
]are using some very strained definition of "behavior" to make that
]statement.
I don't know of any Congolese in the US military.
]
]| If you are required to shower with a bunch of people, how is it different
]| that some are of a different sex? It IS different.
]
]Sorry, man -- been there, done that.  It was only different if the
]difference was appropriate.  
Speak for yourself. I know plenty of people who would find it significant,
and when I was the age that I was in the military, it would have bothered
me.
]| 
]| ]There are, now, quite a few gays in the military.  Is the privacy of a
]| ]het more violated if sie knows that other people in the shower are gay?
]| 
]| Yes.
]
]Could you articulate this a bit more -- I am quite confused at this
]assertion.  And... is the het's privacy more violated it sie knows that
]a specific person is gay than if sie knows that, statistically, someone
]else in the shower is gay, but doesn;t know who?

Yes.

-- 
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
john@anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
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