Newsgroups: bit.listserv.gaynet
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:17:02 -0400
From:         gaynet@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 639

In this issue:
                      Gay marriage in Deutschland
                        Gabriel's U of A post...
                  local rabid dogs at conventions ...
                                BUCHANAN
                       talk shows and ungay gay's
       BofA Changes Mind on Scouts After Reviewing Policy on Gays
                    GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 633
                            One Life to Live

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:31:38 +0200
From: zabin@rz-berlin.mpg.de
Subject: Gay marriage in Deutschland

Today was the big day for those same-sex couples who wanted to tie the knot
in Germany. As I wrote some time ago on the net, a nationwide protest had
been organized here to protest the fact that same-sex couples are not
permitted to marry. The protested consisted of having such couples go to
their Standesamt (marriage office? the place one goes to request an
appointment for a civil marriage) and apply.

Here in Berlin, these offices exist in each district. Today at 11:00 AM we
were there. In our district, Prenzlauer Berg, there were only 3 couples, 2
male and 1 female, who showed up on time. The civil servant was cool but
polite. The man at the door at first didn't want to let us in together, I
walked in and then my fiance was asked "What do you want?" and we said that
we were here to apply for a marriage. It was great fun. We were then led
into an office with a stenographer and civil servant who asked for our
papers and then explained that it would not be possible to accept our
application, and had a form already filled out for the situation. I quote
loosely and in translation:

"Unfortunately, I cannot accept your application for marriage, in that the
laws of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland do not permit a marriage of partners
of the same gender. In writing the basic laws, the Bundesverfassungsgericht
(law giving body) has determined that marriage consists of the union of a
man and woman in partnership. You may appeal this decision at the (.. local
court building in another district ...).
Yours truly,"

Apparently, this was handled differently at the different offices. In some
cases, the applications were accepted for processing, but will certainly be
turned down later. The goal is to then appeal all together. Afterward there
was a party at ManOMeter and many people had stories to tell. The people
who live in rather suburban districts of Berlin had some funny experiences,
with civil servants who were not expecting two women or two men to come in
together. The action seems to have generated a lot of enthusiasm, here in
Berlin there were at least 50 couples at the party afterward, and probably
many more who didn't come: I would estimate at least 100 couples
participated here. The figures will probably come out soon. There was a lot
of press, interviews with couples on the breakfast TV shows, etc. I will
keep you all up to date on any new developments.


Hal B. Zabin     	       	       	/*************************************/
Chodowieckistr. 32   	               	  Ceci n'est pas un SIG
O-1055 Berlin
zabin@rz-berlin.mpg.de  	       	/*************************************/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 10:14:56 EDT
From: SECSI003%SIVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Gabriel's U of A post...

Bravo, and thank you! I'm a statistician, and sometimes want to respond to
this sort of thing, but you seem to with great dispatch, always! I really
like the fact that you know your stats, how they can be used and abused,
and your familiarity with studies is certainly indispensible. The combination
makes you wonderfully formidable. Your response was, as is often the case,
a strong rebuttal. Do you write to NOGLSTP?
My question, how do you keep up with all the studies and info that arises?
Every now and then I find something that is on the cutting edge, but my
job tends to keep me rather tied up. I'm busy trying to keep up with Native
American issues as the NMAI continues to take shape, and that alone can be
exhausting. I'm also trying to keep up with BGL (I thought I'd alphabetize)
issues, but zounds! I think one could make a profession trying to keep
abreast of what's going on.
Anyway, thanks for your post. I always enjoy seeing someone write who under-
stands my field, and writes for a good cause.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 10:46:51 EDT
From: Catherine Moroney <moroney@oldkat.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: local rabid dogs at conventions ...

I only caught a small portion of the convention last night (zzzzz), but
I did see a tiny clip of Pat Buchanan (foaming at the mouth again, as is
his wont, only good thing that I have to say about him is that maybe given
enough rope he will hang himself and save us the trouble!!) being interviewed
by T. Brokaw about his "speech" (I'm being kind) on Monday night.  When pressed
on the homosexual issue (i,e. marriage) he came so close to saying
outright that we're (fill in your own disgusting insult), but didn't.
Everybody knew what he wanted to say though.  God almighty, if you want to
take anybody out, there's good target for you.
Tone seemed to shift last night from the 'family values' (bring out the
stomach pumps) to cold-war-itis and welfare recipients as lazy and shiftless.
Phil Graham I think his name is went on forever about the "evil empire",
what decade is he living in after all?
If it weren't so awful, it could almost be funny in a sick kind of way.

Let's hope they keep on going down down down in the polls.
Catherine Moroney

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 10:24:06 EST
From: ALBRIGH@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: BUCHANAN

I have the text to Buchanan's speech.  If anyone wants, I'll post it on the
net.  Caveat:  it's long.

- -----------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 09:03:47 PDT
Subject: talk shows and ungay gay's
From: An Anonymous Sender

Just got a curious call from the sister of a friend.  She is working as
an intern at one of the national talk shows and has been asked to
follow up on a suggestion from a viewer.  The viewer was talking
about ungay gays and how some gays are comfortable with their
sexual choices, but dislike attitudes and values in the gay community.

The staff is looking into setting up a show to give air time to these
individuals to share their experiences and perceptions.  The show is
generally pretty pro-gay and not into gay bashing and some staff
feel that doing  a show with this focus would help expand the
understanding of conflicts in the gay community.  Some people
believe they need to prepare for a possible backlash from gay groups
who don't tolerate any negative criticism of the gay community.
I told her that it sounded like an excellent idea, but did agree
that some gay people interpret any negative criticism, regardless of
how well researched or thought out, as an attack.  However, if they
can figure out how to handle that aspect, the show should be quite
interesting.

------------------------------

Date:      Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:42:27 EDT
From: An Anonymous Sender

Here is something that I found on soc.culture.indian. For those of
you (Indians, in particular) who don't have access to usenet,
this may be interesting.

- ----------- begin included article -------------------------------
From: udcrusd@meaddata.com (Sylvia D'Cruz)
Subject: Gay Men in India ?
Keywords: Gay India
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:06:57 GMT
Distribution: usa

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                         Copyright 1992 Southam Inc.
                                 Calgary Herald

                     August  16, 1992, Sunday, FINAL EDITION

Gay men find voice in new magazine

BY DEREK BROWN, THE GUARDIAN

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   A short walk from Apollo Bunder, in the smartest part of  India's  smartest
city, is a liquor shop of the kind here called an English bar. That is, it sells
what is quaintly known as Indian Made Foreign Liquor: domestic approximations of
whisky, gin, vodka and rum.

   This particular bar, one of hundreds in Bombay, is big, basic, and generally
busy. Never more so than on Saturday nights when it becomes a temporary focus
for gay men.

   Or rather, those gays who can afford English booze, and who have the
middle-class confidence to cruise in central Bombay. The bar is one of the
favorite places to meet, make weekend plans and generally, in the words of one
man, to camp it up.

   It's hot, smoky and noisy. When it closes, the men here can go to Apollo
Bunder to cool off in the midnight air under the shadow of the huge stone bulk
of the Gateway of  India.  That's another of the favorite gay meeting places of
Bombay. Or there is Chowpatty Beach, where the activity is more fevered and
frequently commercial.

   These articulate, educated young men may not be exactly representative of the
vast but largely uncharted gay community of  India.  But they have at last
thrust an iceberg-tip of visibility above the hypocritical surface of Indian
society, where every minority taste is routinely dismissed as a Western
perversion.

   The voice of this new assertive gay movement is the Bombay Dost (Bombay
Friend) a quarterly magazine which aims to inform and campaign for gays,
lesbians and others of alternative sexuality.

   It's a huge potential market. Editorial chair Ashok Row Kavi, extrapolating
from national and international surveys, reckons that at the very minimum there
are 22 million, and probably 50 million, gays among  India's  burgeoning 860
million people.

   That's a plausible, even conservative, estimate by generally accepted global
standards. Kavi, however, believes it could be an absurd underestimate, given
 India's  history, culture and social patterns.

   "There have been suggestions that we should admit bisexuals and married gays
into our organization. That would mean letting in a majority of Indian men," he
says.

   Allowing a bit of hyperbole, there is a quantity of anecdotal and
circumstantial evidence, and plain old-fashioned observation, to back that
sensational claim.

   Any visitor to the subcontinent from countries where male contact is
discouraged is instantly struck by the number of men here who hold hands and
caress in public. Policemen stand arm in arm, directing the traffic. Taxi
drivers, especially at night, often are huddled on the front seat with younger
men or boys. In the north and west especially, the male greeting is a robust
embrace, and sometimes a prolonged cuddle.

   "It's called male bonding but in Asia we don't really know when it is just
that, and when it is erotic. I can only tell you that in trains and anywhere
there is a crowd, there is a lot of serious feeling up," Kavi says. Other gays
say the same. The pages of Bombay Dost have many testimonies of lonely young
men, desperate to express themselves sexually yet unable to interpret even the
most blatant of homosexual come-ons in public places.

   In spite of Indian-style male bonding and casual contacts, many gays argue
that repression here is just, if not more, cruelly widespread here than in the
West. "A lot of gay sexuality is suppressed by young marriages," says Kavi.

   He also argues that homosexuality also is often lightly dismissed, even by
gays themselves, as the result of the many obstacles to heterosexual
relationships. Dating here is an elite minority pastime.

   "So high is the barrier between the sexes in  India,  that even when a man
buys sex from another men he won't acknowledge that he is behaving in a
homosexual way," Kavi says.

   Bombay Dost, after a tentative start two years ago, began regular publication
last summer. The response was immediate, with 25 letters a week. That is now 125
a week, and climbing.

   Most are enthusiastic about the emergence of a public gay movement. But
inevitably many reveal anguish, enormous pressure, and agonized doubts about
coming out.

   Already, there have been ugly incidents of gay-bashing by the police in
Delhi, and there are ominous homophobic undercurrents in the swelling debate
about AIDS.

   For that reason, the Bombay Dost team is deliberately tight-lipped when asked
about the rate of HIV infection among gays. "You can say that a lot of our
people are looking ill," Kavi says. "We know that it is going to be a huge-scale
thing, but it will help nobody if we spark off a campaign of homophobia."


- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Hugs,
[**ME**]

------------------------------

From: august@leland.stanford.edu
Subject: BofA Changes Mind on Scouts After Reviewing Policy on Gays
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 13:21:04 PDT

BofA Changes Mind on Scouts After Reviewing Policy on Gays

By Teresa Moore, San Francisco Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 19, 1992

	The Bank of America has reversed its controversial de-
cision to withhold donations to the Boy Scouts of America,
after deciding that the organization does not discriminate
against homosexual youths.

	The decision yesterday to resume contributions came
just days after the bank's initial action was criticized in
the Republican Party platform.  But the bank denied that its
decision had anything to do with public pressure.

	"Our understanding is that they have been discrimina-
tory in the past," said Peter Magnani, a spokesman for the
San Francisco-based bank.  "They have clarified that now
they are open to all boys."

	But an official for the national scouting organization
said that interpretation is inaccurate.

	Blake Lewis, a national Boy Scouts spokesman, said that
official interpretation of the phrase "morally straight" in
the scouting oath means "not homosexual."  Gay youths are
"not eligible" to be Scouts, Lewis said.

	"We have always maintained that 'morally straight'
speaks to the fact that young people are expected to live a
life of high standards that are consistent with the
expectations of mainstream American families," Lewis said.

	Two months ago, the bank announced that it would cease
to donate to the Scouts because the group's policy banning
gay members was at odds with the bank's nondiscrimination
policy.  The bank's decision was met with an angry outcry
from Scout supporters and religious fundamentalists, who
picketed the bank and withdrew money from its accounts.
Last week, Republican Party members crafting a "traditional
values" platform implied that Bank of America and other
institutions that cut funds to the Scouts were undermining
"family values."

	In the midst of the uproar surrounding their decision,
the bank, which is headed by former Boy Scout Richard
Rosenberg, initiated a series of communications with the
national leadership of the Boy Scouts of America.

	Magnani said that after consulting with Boy Scouts of
America President John Clendenin, the bank concluded that
the youth organization is open to all boys who subscribe to
the Scout oath and law.  Clendenin could not be reached for
comment.

	"Our understanding is that scouting is open to all
boys--including gay boys," Magnani said.  On this basis, he
said, bank executives decided that the youth program was
indeed eligible for corporate donations.

	Magnani said the bank acknowledges that the Boy Scouts
prohibits homosexuals as leaders but found that not to be a
sufficient reason to deny them funds.  He said the bank's
primary concern is the youngsters the organization was
established to serve.

	"Leadership isn't the same issue for us," Magnani said.
"Our criterion is that they make their services available to
kids."

	Wells Fargo Bank and Levi Strauss are two other corpo-
rations that announced several weeks ago that they would
withhold donations from the Boy Scouts as long as the
organization continued to discriminate.  Representatives of
both companies said that they had no intention of reversing
their positions.

	When Levi Strauss approached the Boy Scouts several
months ago for a clarification of the Scouts' membership
policies, it received a very different answer than what Bank
of America says it was told.

	"They wrote us back and said that they exclude gays and
atheists as leaders and members," said Mary Gross,
spokeswoman for the clothing company.

	"'The Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals
as members or leaders,'" Gross said, reading from a letter
from Boy Scouts spokesman Lewis.

	"According to our direct communication, the Boy Scouts
of America has confirmed to us that it excludes on the basis
of sexual orientation and religious beliefs and has no plans
to change those policies," Gross said.

	Ken McPherson, spokesman for Forgotten Scouts, a na-
tional group that lobbies for official inclusion of ho-
mosexuals in scouting, blamed Boy Scouts officials for
creating confusion.

	"Either the Boy Scouts have made a major change in
their policy or they are duping the Bank of America into
thinking that they are allowing young gay people into
Scouts," he said.

-
nGUYen QUang tuE, august@lEland.stanfoRd.edu
Unexotic Oriental Boy, (415) 325-9227

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:52:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: WERLING <awerling@nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: GayNet Digest Volume 5 Issue 633
Mime-Version: 1.0

> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 12:09:29 -0700
> From: hvosti@nike.calpoly.edu (Hugh Vosti)
> Subject: Rich Gays
>
>
> I don't understand why this campaign of "gays are rich
> and don't need special rights" is working.  Are they
> using reverse psychology or what?  I thought the
> traditional conservative line was that making a lot
> of money and contributing to the economy was a good
> thing.  And sometimes even a reward for practicing
> Christian principles.  Do they want us to believe
> that gays only make their living by being evil and
> conniving?

Ah, but of course the reason it is working is that it's not the real
reason at all.  It's an easy rationalization, it's a false emotional
front.  These people hate gays for no rational reason; they'll use
anything to attempt to justify it.

Andrew (a not-rich gay person)

-
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:01:02 -0600 (MDT)
From: WERLING <awerling@nmsu.edu>
Subject: One Life to Live
Mime-Version: 1.0

>
> From: manz@ee.ualberta.ca (Brett {Druid Queen} Manz)
> Subject: OLTL Friday, Aug 14
> Keywords: soap, gay, billy, plot
> Sender: news@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca
> Nntp-Posting-Host: eigen.ee.ualberta.ca
> Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
> Date: 	Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:39:46 -0600
>
> OLTL Plot Summary, Friday, Aug 14

Hi Brett.  I was following Greg's summaries while I was here, then took
three weeks' of vacation in Albuquerque, and watched it at my parents'
house.  Luckily I just got a VCR, so I can actually watch the episodes.

I'm wondering if anyone reading might have the answer to a question or
two.  I wrote to OLTL (c/o ABC) saying thanks for the wonderful job
they've been doing and suggesting that it would be great if they kept the
character of Billy on the show.  I mean, it is great that they have a
sympathetic and realistic (to the extent of a soap opera anyway) gay
character on the show, but it would be even better if they could have a
*regular*, *steady* gay character...Billy being beneficial because many
viewers might have petrified and closeted gay teenagers living with them
as they watch the program.

Does anyone know if they plan to keep him around?

Further, I'm wondering (as I've missed quite a bit of GayNet recently) if
anyone knows anything about the actor who plays Billy.  I'm wondering if
he is worried about the stigma that may or may not be placed on him due to
his playing a gay role.  I'm also wondering if he's out as "really gay."

Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   Ambassador of Planet Yip
To get on the Planet Yip Junk Mail List, write to me.

------------------------------

End of GayNet Digest
********************