From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Call Anything but Peace, by Faruk od Bosne
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:20:54 GMT


This is a posting from Faruk who can read but not post an article
on the net.

Senad H. Arnautovic


In his response Article 507 to Senad Arnautovic, miha@proteus1.UUCP 
(Sinisa Mihailovic) writes: 

>are  greatly  wrong or have been taught wrong: Encyclopaedia Britannica
>has  something  different  to  say  for,  let's say Tvrtko: "In 1376 he
>assumed  the  title  'Stephen  Tvrtko,  in Christ God King of Serbs and
>Bosnia and Coastland'. He had himself crowned at Milesevo, at the grave
>of St. Sava with the two crowns of Bosnia and Serbia".
>        It  is  clear that he was of Orthodox faith and therefore Serb.
>Similar goes for the others....

It is not at all clear that he was of Orthodox faith. Since he was Bosnian
ban before, it follows that he was Bosnian, he defeated serbs and sat on
their throne to show them who is in power. What happened to Dusan's 
successor?

>........................... As for Boghumils, you should already know
>that Boghumilism originates from Russia, from the Orhodox religion.
>of  slightly different faith to Bosnian serbs....

Boghumils had no cross for their symbol, as witnessed on their tombs, 
stecci, found all over Bosnia. Since it was 13-th century, Christianity 
was reasonably developed, Boghumils were not the followers of Christ. At
that time serbs built their monasteries were-ever they were. Since there
are no serbs monasteries within the present BH borders, it follows that
serbs were not there.
However, whoever the Bosnians were, they embraced Islam by and large, not 
only landlords but also ordinary people. That's why there are so many 
Muslims in Balkan. Vivid examples are surnames of the present serbian 
strongmen: Karadzic (Turkish name Kara=Black with serbian ending ic), 
leader of Bosnian serbs, Adzic (from Haj -> Hajic prononced Hadzic) 
serbian general chief of staff, Kadijevic (Kadija=judge turk.) serb 
defense minister, Goran Hadzic (again from Haj) leader of Krajina serbs, 
etc. Therefore all this people embraced Islam and later on probably in 
19-th century were converted to Christianity.

>..............................................  Again, all of this has
>nothing  to  do  with  Muslims,  except  that  it prooves that Muslims
>have  no  right  to  claim  the Bosnian heritage since they have never
>lived in the independent and souvereign Bosnia-Herzegovina.
>Bosnian  Kingdom vanished under the Turk invasion,.....

Before 1814, serbs never lived in sovereign state either. Bosnian Kingdom 
existed longer than either Serbian or Croatian, before Serbs fell to 
Ottomans and Croatians to Hungarians. If Bosnia vanished more so 
did Serbia and Croatia. Bosnian heritage == Bosnian Muslim heritage. 
It was up to Bosnians which faith they embraced. Most of them embraced 
Islam. Later some of them were converted to Christianity (as surnames 
above show) and lot of them were settled since 1918 with the purpose 
to change demographic structure, like serbs are attemting now in Kosovo.

>..................................................Bosnian culture was
>almost destroyed by Turks who pulled Bosnia centuries back after which
>came Austro-Hungary to take what was left.

Turks left to Bosnians bridges, baths, schools, mosques, etc. Austrians left
to Bosnians railroads, post, libraries, archives, museums (to remember who 
we are) etc. Serbs left us murders, ruins, genocide, hatred, rapes, slauthers, 
conc. camps (95 of them in Bosnia), crippled children (hundreeds of thousands). 
Before this war Bosnia had the highest cultural as well as economic growth
rate among ex-Yu republics. Sarajevo had Olympic games, the only Nobel 
price winner was Bosnian, five out of top ten ex-Yu companies had head-
quarters in Sarajevo: Sipad, Zelj. Zenica, Unis, Energoinvest, Unioninvest.
The best movie director is Bosnian, the best pop as well as folks singers 
in ex-Yugo are Bosnians. 
This is for a record who pulled Bosnia centuries back.

>>For three centuries Bosnians of Islamic confession were landords,
>>with Christians having had very few acres of land.
>>Those lands were unlawfully taken away from the Bosnians in 1918 by 
>>Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia thru the agrar reform. I am prepared to provide
>>a reference for my claim. So 60% of land is data after land-grabbing
>>took place. If you use statistic data taken out of context,
>>what is the reason for Serbs to claim Kosovo when population
>>and land is 90% Albanian there. 

>        You are greatly wrong if you are refering  to Bosnia under the
>Ottoman  Empire.  As for the land-grab, if there was any, how did those
>Muslims get their land if not from grabbing the land from the orthodox
>people who were there for centuries before Muslims came to Bosnia.

The history proves that Bosnian landlords (now called Muslims) embraced 
Islam. Therefore they didn't need to grab the land. They have owned it.
Agrar reform (from 1918 on, under excuse of socialism) did the opposite, 
grabbed the land from Muslims and gave it to peasants. 

>And should I take your explanation as a excuse for the land-grab which
>Izetbegovic's government attempted?

Mr. Izetbegovic's government did not make any attempt to grab any inch
of anybody's land.
	
> horribly mutilated). What about serbian children in Muslim-held camps? 

There are none. You have invented them. Ask Helsinki Watch, Mr. Tadeuzs
Mazowiecki, watch TV. You must be shut-off completely.

>    There  is no doubt, horryble crimes are being done on daily basis by
>sick  people  and  criminals.  

And they are serbs. Sarajevo is beseiged by serb-JNA. Sarajevo is shelled 
by serbs-JNA. Serbian generals openly threatened inhabitants of beseiged
towns, over the radio, that unless they surrender they will vanish. Who is
doing ethnic cleansing? 

>from  Yugoslav Army? As for the argument that YNA left the arms to Serbs
>it  is  groundless  for  anyone  who  knows how principle of territorial
>defense  worked.  Telling  that  Bosnian  Muslims  are  unarmed  is also
>ridiculous because they were the part of that same territorial defense.

Out of 42 YNA generals, 34 of them were serbs. Others were mockery of
national distribution in the army.

>Keep  in mind that YNA has built significant part of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
>mainly parts where Muslims live. What about that?

Finally we agree. Yes they built (or better forced Bosnians to build)
some roads, to bring tanks and howitzers closer to the Muslim population
to destroy them, as we witness it now. Why serbo-army destroyed Bihac's 
8 billion airport before it pulled away.

>talking  about?? The whole world was informed that the alleged camps in
>Serbia don't exist. Western agencies, even CIA also reported that there
>are  no  Serb-held  death-camps.

95 serb held death-camps are in Bosnia, 11 in Serbia/MNegro. Did you 
watch ABC news Nov 10 and 11. If you insist I will give you a list of all 
of them and more.

>for  camps  and  they  have found nothing. So, once again, what are you
>talking about, who is feeding you with those lies?

So, ABC is lying, Helsinki Watch is lying, Christiana Avanpoor (news-woman)
is lying, CNN is lying, everybody is lying but serbs. Hallas their truth
doesn't come through. Serbs are doing nothing but raping, slaughtering, 
looting, murdering. Poor serbs, nobody likes them any more. 

>     Well, I didn't say that it will be Serbia, but it should be divided
>in  ethnic  cantons,  I  simply don't see any better solution which will
>bring peace. Fragile, but still a peace.

Now it is not question of choice. It is the question for the mankind.
After so much irrational damage, will serbs be ever able to live in Bosnia
again.

>be  thanked  to  the  Islamic  friends  of  Bosnia- Herzegovina who are
>blackmailing  the  world (and really big powers) with the oil, military
>bases, etc...  Can't wait the day when some nice, clean source of power
>will replace oil ;)

EC was the first to recognize the sovereign Bosnia, followed by the US, 
Canada etc. Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Hercegovina were accepted to 
the full UN membership the same day. If the Islamic world were so powerful
Serbia would cease to exist by now.

>-- miha

faruk  


Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia