From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Disproof of "Proof 1" (was ***MoJ: Proof 1: The Amazing Prophecy***)
Followup-To: alt.messianic
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:26:17

To: Gedaliah

I'm reposting an article written on this issue by Ruben Gonzalez.

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From: ruben@europa.ee.uts.edu.au (Ruben Gonzalez)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Messiah the Prince
Date: 11 Dec 91 01:43:39 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia

Now here is an interesting prophecy concerning the Messiah !

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
         to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
         reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
         righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
         the most Holy. (KJV)
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
         commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
         Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
         shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (KJV)
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
         for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
         destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
         a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
         (KJV)
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
         midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
         cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
         desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
         poured upon the desolate. (KJV)

Now lets just see what it says to us.
Now we are given definite times here for these things to occur. Are they
literal weeks ? Obviously they can not be because 70 literal weeks after
the rebuilding of Jerusalem the Messiah had not come. Now some may like to
apply the principles of prophetic interpretation known as futurism
developed by cardinals Belaman and Rivera and put all of this into some
future time. I however would like to present the true interpretation
of this prohecy as believed by the early Christian church. Unfortunately
it as been lost sight of recently. (I can cite references)

Now how do we interpret these time periods? Well its rather simple, you
see the Lord tells us clearly how he deals with prophetic and symbolic
time periods; A day for a year.

Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to
        the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou
        bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (KJV)
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and
        thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have
        appointed thee each day for a year. (KJV)

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even
          forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even
          forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. (KJV)


So that when the Lord said a day He meant a year. When he says a week it
then must be seven years. So we will use this principle: A day for a year.

Now in verse 24 we are therefore told that Israel and Jerusalem has been
given 70 weeks = 70x7 days = 490 days = 490 years in order to

         to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
         reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
         righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
         the most Holy.

Now when it says here to make an end of sins, the Hebrew word used is
'chattath' (sorry no ASCII Hebrew) this word can either mean sin or sin
offering. Lev 4:3 is an example of this uses when it says
"Let him bring for his *sin* ... a young bullock ... for his *sin*offering*."
The same word 'chattath' is used in both occasions.
So in this period of 490 years in Jerusalem there would be an end made to
the system of sin offerings, a reconciliation for iniquity would be effected,
everlasting righteousness would be effected and the most Holy would be
annointed. This last point is interesting because Messiah means the anointed
one. The point about sealing up the vision and prophecy is linked to a wider
prophecy concerning Dan 8.

Now when was all this to happen? How can we determine a starting time for
all of this to happen. Well verse 25 tells us that the time would start from
the going forth of the command to rebuild Jerusalem. The 70 weeks are also
further subdivided into periods of 7 and 62 and the remaining week.

We see that seven weeks are allotted to the restoration of Jerusalem,
the rebuilding of the street and the wall. From this point 62 weeks
are measured off so that at the end of this total period 69 weeks have
elapsed and we are to see the manidfestation of the Messiah the Prince.
In the midst of this 69th week we are told that (verse 27) the Messiah
would be cut off and thereby cause cause the sacrifice to end.

Now when did the 70 weeks commence ? Well there are 3 degrees which were
issued to Restore Jerusalem.

Cyrus 536 B.C.		Restore the temple
Darius 519 B.C.		Reaffirmed
Artaxerxes 457 B.C.	Complete Restoration of national economy

Of the three the one under which the wall and street was built was that of
Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. Now how do we know this is the correct date ?
Well this is probably the surest date in scripture. This work was
accomplished by Ezra.

Ezra 7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law
         of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king
         granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his
         God upon him. (KJV)
Ezra 7:7 And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests,
         and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims,
         unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king. (KJV)
Ezra 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh
         year of the king. (KJV)
Ezra 7:26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the
          king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto
          death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to
          imprisonment. (KJV)

The Seventh year of Artaxerxes was 457 B.C. Now we have mentioned that 7
weeks or 7x7 = 49 years were allocated to the rebuilding of the wall and
street. We find that the last act of restoration is recorded in Neh13:23-..
and this occured exactly 49 years after the work had been first begun by Ezra.

Now 69 weeks = 69x7 = 483 years were to extend to Messiah the Prince. Dating
from 457 B.C. the period ends in 27 A.D. (remember to skip year 0)

It is interesting to note the event that occured at this time. The anointing
of Jesus Christ.

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus
          also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (KJV)
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,
          and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son;
          in thee I am well pleased. (KJV)

After this Jesus himself "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of 
the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled." Mark 1:14-15
The Messiah had come and with His own lips He announced the termination
of that period of the prophecy. How is it that He also know the time of 
His death ? The prophecy also fortold this.

Now the Messiah was to confirm the covenant with many for one week in the
midst of which He would cause the sacrifice and obilation to cease. How would
this occur? Well it occured when He was cut off but not of himself.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare
            his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
            for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (KJV)

At His death, sacrifices for sin ended: He was the sacrificial lamb.
When was this to occur ? In the midst of the last week. Or 3.5 years after
the 69th week. 3.5+27 = 31 A.D. the date of the Crucifiction. Now we know
that Christ attended 3 passovers. In fact this date (31 A.D.) can be proven
historically.

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the
           ghost. (KJV)
Matt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top
           to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (KJV)

Obviously the tearing of the veil signified the end of the sacrificial
system.

So that we see that Christ effect a reconciliation for iniquity, through
His atoning  sacrifice and simultaneously brought in everlasting 
righteousness to all those who would accept His righteousness in place of 
theirs. Obviously the most Holy, the Messiah himself was annointed by the 
Father and the Holy Spirit at His baptism at the hands of John. The
fullfilment of this prophecy is complete in every detail.
	  
"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come
to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29



Ruben.
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> I hope that this shows us something.  Vijay's post (a self named
> "proof") is hardly a proof at all.  It is just a forced translation
> to draw incorrect conclusions.  I am not claiming that my post is a
> *proof* that Jesus wasn't the messiah (although I certainly believe this
> to be true).  I am just showing the faults in the "proofs" given by
> the "Messianic" community to draw Jews away from Torah and into the
> Church. 

We aren't living in the Middle Ages anymore. There are already tens or
even hundrets of thousands of Messianic Jews, and their amount is rising
all the time. I don't know where you actually live, but I'll give you
some addresses of Messianic congregations in Michigan:

Southfield: Shema Yisrael. Services: Sat. 10:30 AM. Spiritual Leader 
Loren Jacobs. 19421 West 10 Mile Road. Call (313) 358-3850.

Southfield (Detroit): Congregation Beth Messiah. Services: Sat. 10:30 AM.
25835 Southfield Rd. 48037. Congregational Leader, Harold Brickner, Phone
(313) 559-1535.

> Gedaliah Friedenberg
> -=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
> -=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
> -=-Michigan State University

Regards,
Laura

--
"Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
 Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
 Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
 Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
 What is his name, and the name of his son ?
 Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4
Newsgroups: alt.messianic