Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel and Palestinians (was Re: Schmi
From: eitan@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Shternbaum Eitan)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:05:13 GMT
 <22154@venera.isi.edu><1992Aug8.042029.29852@colorado.edu> <22186@venera.isi.edu>
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center.
Originator: eitan@pashosh.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il


In article <22186@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
|> > >>
|> > >> Actually, unless I'm mistaken, it means the name of the people for whom
|> > >> the land is named.  Israel is the Jewish state, thus you fill in Jewish.
|> > >> Similarly, Australia is the Australian state, thus you fill in
|> > >> Australian.
|> > >
|> > >"The people for whom the land is named"???  Is this a joke?  Don't start
|> > >this silly line of argument again.  You know full well that "Australian"
|> > ><is identical to> "citizen of Australia", but "Jew" <is far from
|> > >identical to> "citizen of Israel".  You even had to change Israel's name
|> > >from "Israel" to "The Jewish state" to fit your tortured argument.
|> >
|> > Hardly, since Israel is the Jewish state.  There's no tortured logic,
|> > only some rather obvious paranoia and setting up tautologies on your
|> > part.
|>
|> This *is* your tortured logic.  Israel may be the Jewish state, but what
|> you said "[When a state holds land, it is usually held to be the
|> inalienable property of] the people for whom the land is named".  Not
|> the people for whom you (or anyone else) nicknames the land, but the
|> people for whom the land is *named*.  It is a fact that Israel is not
|> named "the Jewish state", but simply "ISRAEL".  Yet you admit -- even
|> justify, it appears -- the fact the land is held ONLY FOR JEWS.
|>
|> The way you make this analogous to "Australia being for Australians" is
|> by trying to distort what the name of the country is.  And then you top
|> that off by claiming that accusing my message of paranoid and "setting
|> up tautologies"!!  I suppose you will deny that that is more of your
|> tortured logic.
|>

Meir Kahana had the same notion consearning Nationality vs Citizenship.
He proposed (when he was MK) to change the name of Israel to Judea  so
the state will be - State of Judea and the citizens would be the Jews
in hebrew it sounds better Medinat Yehuda - Yehudim.

I think the simple solution for the "problem" is just to remind ourself that
Israel is a Hebrew term that usually refers to either
a) Jacob
b) the People of Israel or the Sons of Israel (IE Jacob) which means the Jews
   or in hebrew Am-Israel, Bnei-Israel.+ 14285	Re: Israel and Palestinians (was R

I guess that Yigal has some knowledge in hebrew but choosed not to remember when
he had the chance ...

BTW the country is called the Land-of-Israel (Erets-Israel) and also Zion
Does that ring a bell ???

|> > >When you have a chance look carefully at Israel's declaration of
|> > >independence.  You will note that the new state promises to treat
|> > >everyone equally regardless of a whole list of attributes by which
|> > >people may be distinguished, such as sex and race.  You will note that
|> > >"nationality" is absent from this list -- a particularly glaring
|> > >oversight.  I wonder if this, too, "doesn't even count as evidence in
|> > >favor of discrimination" in your book.
|> >
|> > Must nationality be stated explicitly?
|>
|> It doesn't *have* to be anything.  But its absence from a document
|> setting out the basis for life in a country with a large national
|> minority can hardly be termed unintentional or insignificant.
|> --

a) what is "Large national minority" ? (there are no more than 17% arab citizens
   in Israel, I'm not including WB and GAZA because they are under military          occupation , Just for the record the WB residen
   I'm refraining from repeating the discussion over the morality of the
   occupation (*YAWN*) i think all that could have been said has been said , and
   I'm sure we all regret it :-)

b) From reading Yigal previous postings i gather that he is Ideologically againt
   the notion of National State, I can understand this (though he is in minority
   position, most states are national states) what i find hard to understand
   why you keep picking on Israel ? I know that Israel is the biggest country
   in the ME with the preatest amount of population ... but there are other
   countries in the ME (not as bad as Israel ofcourse ...) .
   But i guess old habits are hard to get ridd off, especially for and old
   matzpenist.

|> Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
|> USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
|> arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
|>                Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21

Eitan Shterenbaum
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