HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 06:09:30 GMT

One of the arguments since 1914 for the creation of the American Parks
was as a reserve in time for the National Defense.  Same goes for
wilderness areas.  You can always change a law, but you can't reverse
a physical process like mining.  As noted before this clause was used
during WWII for wood for planes.  Note the date above.  The idea
existed since ~1870, but it was placed in law at the start of WWI.
Same goes for superhighways capable of supporting rapid deployment of
heavy armor and most of the National Defense Student Loans.
Embellishments like this have been added thru time.  It erodes past law
like Roe-v.-Wade.  Declare the right war, and most of you would support mining.
All very logical.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: Tim Dudley <dudley.chi@xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Baucus-Burns  (apology)
Organization: bnr
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:58:42 GMT

Sorry about the double posting...it was hard enough just getting one 
of them out.  Still don't know how the second one slipped by.

Tim
From: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Ed Beshore)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:33:10 GMT
Subject: Re: National parks to be strip mined?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

You can bet that I will get off my ass and write my congressman
TODAY about this.  I recommend other readers of this forum do the
same and SPREAD THE WORD.

This is the sort of thing that justifies civil disobediance.
From: jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: being safe in the woods
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:53:59 GMT
Organization: NT/BNR
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3

In article <1992Sep28.211613.25117@nas.nasa.gov> Eugene N. Miya,
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov writes:
>>All this stuff about fearing for one's life in the backcountry:
>>Where do you folks hike, anyway, Central Park?  I'm getting the
>>feeling someone has been OD'ing on old videos like "Deliverance".
>>Or what's the one about the demented Rambo type 
>
>Frankly, I wonder, too.

No, just the evening news.
JB
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:02:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.013709.4821@nezsdc.icl.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) writes:
> In article <1992Sep25.224711.19554@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
> 
> I have enjoyed this thread and Eugene is doing a wonderful job of summarising 
> but a couple of nit picks and a couple of questions with the classification.
> 
> 
> >Amph:
> >	Tuatara lizard  - Is a reptile - albeit a very primitive one.
> 
Since we are picking nits, a tuatara is not a lizard, but is classified
in a group by itself. Apparently, it split off the evolutionary tree a
little below the branch for snakes and lizards.

-- 
-Tim-

sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu
From: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Kits
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:47:46 GMT
Reply-To: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.backcountry, viviana@igor.tamri.com (Vivian Aldridge) writes:
*Greetings,
*
*Does anyone know of mail order companies that sell good
*first aid kits? I'm looking for kits that contain items such
*as gauze pads, cravats,scissors,cotton balls,thermometers,
*syrup of Ipecac,tweezers,bandages,finger splints, cold and
*hot packs etc.
*
*I've looked for kits at camping stores and Cosco, but they
*seem to be made up mostly of band-aids.
*
*In addition to mail order houses, does anyone know of a
*store in the Bay Area (California)?
*
*Thanks!
*
*Vivian
*Please email to me at
*viviana@tamri.com
*
*I'll post a summary if I find out there isn't one already.

Why not simply make up your own using a suitable-sized Tupperware-type
box?  My daughter made me one in Girl Scouts and it's been very useful.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: egs@volkl (Emin Gun Sirer)
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
Organization: Princeton University, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 17:55:05 GMT

In article <51400016@hpscit.sc.hp.com> rog@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Roger Haaheim) writes:
>Many years ago, MSR did a study about altitude sickness,
>headaches, et al.  As I recall (may not be accurate :^)
>the cure was drink lots of water, eat lots of carbohydrates,
>and pop antacids regularly. 

	Jibes with what they taught us at WMA/NASAR (Wilderness Medical
Associates - basically a wilderness EMT course).

>Seems the problem was acidosis or some such, and the above helped. 

	I believe it's alkalysis, where blood becomes more basic, and the
breathing/hyperventilation urge is reduced. This causes latent hypoxia.
Taking acids restores the breathing urge and helps cure mild and moderate
altitude sickness. (The urge to breathe is closely connected to the pH of
the blood, which normally is dependent on HCO3 content, which is a factor
of CO2 in blood. Altitude screws up this balance).

>Problem is, I can't
>recall whether it was "lots of carbohydrates" or the
>opposite... 

	I checked my notes from three years ago, and they say the 
treatment/prevention is:
	- Take acids (Dioxepam ??? Some brand name resembling this).
	- Eat lots of carbohydrates.
	- Prevent dehydration.
	- (Mild AMS) Take aspirin or other painkillers to relieve headache.
Stay at the same altitude until symptoms disappear.
	- (Moderate and up) Descend 1000' - 4000'.
	- Carry high, sleep low.
	- Over 8000', spend a day at every 1000', resting an extra day at
every 3000'.
	- No alcohol at altitude (as it's basic).

	The patient has to be closely monitored for a long while as a mild
case can quickly get worse and end up as HACE/HAPE.

Gun.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 20:37:14 GMT

In article <Sep28.174436.58657@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>Lying staring at the stars last weekend I had an insight.
>It was one of those clear, moonless, wilderness nights and the
>stars were uncountably many.

Not to burst your romantic bubble, there are approx. 4K stars visible to
the human eye (both hemispheres, not all at one time).  Even the best
cosmological models make for countable & finite numbers and ..... ;^)
(Down to the +5 apparent magnitude. [I wanted to be an astronomer when I was
younger, science, remember 8^)])

No prisoners. 8^)

>From square in the center of my
>vacant unfocussed attention, a realization took shape:
>There's still a LOT of wilderness out there!  What's more,
>its inaccessible remoteness seems inviolable.  Everything
>is not going to hell, only our planet.  Provincial hopelessnes
>was overwhelmed by comforting insignificance.

I don't quite regard space as wilderness (a colleague of mine [also a friend
of RRO] were discussing ocean wilderness at lunch.  I don't see our planet
going to hell, but I question our life-style.  Micki points out the Moon.
Several proposals have noted the problem of Moon garbage and proposals
have been made to confine the foot prints and space debris to certain areas
for historical as well as "environmental" reasons.  Space isn't wilderness,
space is mostly empty.

You present an interesting view of space (in the geometric sense).
Previously posted story (years ago): back in 1975-76-77, when I was part
of running our club, we invited Dave Brower (he had left the Sierra Club
maybe 8 yrs earlier to found Friends of the Earth) to UCSB.  We were
sitting around after dinner and I was talking to him about the Sierra Club
Format series books which he started (big coffee table books which are now
popular) and the spatial distortion of blowing up an Ansel Adams print
to cover two pages.  When I finally remember seeing Yosemite Valley for
real in 1970 I could distinctly remember being a tiny bit disaapointed.
The real Valley from Inspiration Point did not subtend the same angle
as a SCFB held at close proximity.  The Book made the Valley seem huge.
The Valley is tiny.  Half dome is scrunched.  Then note the contrast of
saying being on a wall of El Cap (huge again).  Brower enjoyed that
little story.  All the more reason to defend it.  And also remember the
photos and images taken from space back to the Earth.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
From: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Ed Beshore)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:27:05 GMT
Subject: Re: is it worth having boots resoled?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

In rec.backcountry, pgf@cayman.COM (Paul Fox) writes:


>I have a 5 or 6 year old pair of Merrill's that are in reasonable shape,
>except for the Vibram soles, which are close to bald.  Can these be
>re-soled?  Is it worth it?

I just retired a pair of Vasques that I have had for nearly 20 years.
They were resoled twice.  A decent pair of stiched boots ( as opposed
to glued stuff) is much more cost effective if you maintain them.  If you
like your boots, give 'em a new lease on life.


>On a related topic, does anyone believe that gore-tex lined leather boots
>are worthwhile.  I decided they were worthless when tramping in New
>Zealand, where the water tended to pour in the tops while I was knee to hip
>deep in a river -- the goretex didn't seem to help.  :-) But seriously --
>does gore-tex really hold up in a boot?  Doesn't sno-seal or whatever do
>just as much?

I have no experience, but it seems that the concensus (by no means
unanimous) is that Gore-Tex may not be too effective in boots.  I have
heard better things said about some Gore Tex liners, but have no direct
experience.

Ed

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ault@engin.umich.edu (Matthew Ault)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 13:54:17 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor


In article <1992Sep30.161916.11372@lsil.com> gascan@dcst16.dc writes:
>In article micki@netcom.com, micki@netcom.com (Michelle Stone) writes:
>> 
>> I have often wondered.... since there isn't any wind or any other erosion 
>> on the moon... haven't we already polluted it with .... footprints?
>> 
>> Michelle
>
>I submit that you may be stretching the definition of 'pollution' a little.
>
>If you think about it, space enthusiasts and evironmentalists should
>be natural allies.  After all, isn't the ultimate goal of the space program to
>zone this entire planet residential/park by moving all the nasty polluting 
>activities off planet?
>
>1. Bill Gascoyne

Well, maybe...  I guess it depends what your *ultimate* goals are.

Your comment, plus someone else's mentioning of James Burke, put me in mind
of an episode from his _Connections_ series.  Back in the 1600's, people in
England were really hot on glass products.  The problem was that in order
to get the fires hot enough to make the glass, they had to cut down outrageous
amounts of timber to turn into charcoal.  This was having a serious effect
on the amount of wood left standing in Britain.  So they decided to try
and lure the glass makers over to the New World, which had plenty of wood.
No more worries for the British forests.  It turns out that the glass makers
weren't really hot on the New World, which at that time was pretty primitive,
so the project didn't go over too well.  (For more detailed/accurate info,
read the book or watch the series _Connections_ by James Burke.  Definately
worth the time.)

The idea of putting all of the nasty and polluting processes out in space
or on other planets struck me as remarkably similar to the idea of sending
all of those forest-destroying glass makers to the Americas.  While the
idea of people inhabiting outer space and other planets may seem, ahem,
out of this world, I'm sure that in 1600 no one would have suspected that
there would be such populations in the Americas as there are now.  Who knows
what the situation will be 400 years from *now*?

I guess my point is, we shouldn't throw caution to the wind when it comes to
the possible environmental ramifications of our long term space exploration
efforts.  That's why I get a little uncomfortable when NASA starts talking
about building nuclear reactors to power manned bases on the moon and Mars.
Just *what* are they going to do with the waste?  And what are they going
to do when they need to use the real-estate that the waste occupies?  The mind
boggles...

On the other hand, I never *completely* lose my faith in the ability of
mankind to solve such problems.  Here's hoping.

-matt

-- 
 /|====================| Sanity is maintained only by healthy and     |\
/ |  Matthew A. Ault   |   regular promenades around its border.      | \
\ |ault@engin.umich.edu|     - from _The Complete Wilderness Paddler_ | /
 \|====================|         by J.W. Davidson & J. Rugge          |/
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 20:48:32 GMT

In article <51400016@hpscit.sc.hp.com> rog@hpscit.sc.hp.com
(Roger Haaheim) writes:
>Many years ago, MSR did a study about altitude sickness,
>headaches, et al.

I have that old newsletter.  It is old enough that I would advise
against reading it.  The results were inconclusive.  Charlie Houston's
article in Sci. Am. this month is generally a good article, but as with
all medical conditions: consult with your personal physician, your
condition and symptoms may vary.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Baby Joggers on Trails
Date: 30 Sep 92 09:28:19 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: usa

Baby Joggers on Trails - just remember they are illegal in Wildernesses.

Besides it seems to me you would bounce your kid to death (figuratively
and possibly litteraly).

ARS



Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: tilley@fsg.UUCP (Tom Tilley)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Reply-To: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:12:19 GMT


In article <Sep29.235329.69115@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <1992Sep29.203714.17086@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>>In article <Sep28.174436.58657@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
>>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>>>Lying staring at the stars last weekend I had an insight.
>>>It was one of those clear, moonless, wilderness nights and the
>>>stars were uncountably many.
>>
>>Not to burst your romantic bubble, there are approx. 4K stars visible to
>>the human eye (both hemispheres, not all at one time).  Even the best
>
>Oh Eugene.  You're so left-brained!  (Don't feel bad.  That's a line
>an old room mate used to apply to me all the time.)

To be "left brained" for a moment, the quoted passage does not claim
that the visible stars were uncountably many: only that "the stars"
were. :-)

This exchange reminds me of Ray Bradbury's introduction to his "Complete
Book of Ray Bradbury Poetry", or something to that effect (pub. early
1980's).  He related that he had a line about how "the birds have not
seen the stars", and was informed by Carl Sagan (who was on a boat with
him at the time) that there are birds that migrate by the stars.  He
came up with "maybe some bird has felt Orion's rise, but see .. but really
see and know?".

Tom.

#--------------------------------------------------#
| Tom Tilley                                       |
| Internet : tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com   |
From: usenet@lonex.rl.af.mil (USENET Account)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re:  Gender Question...
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:26:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: RL
Originator: zygak@lonexb.rl.af.mil

At one time I also felt nervous about hiking alone.  I'm 5'4", 115lb, so
I guess I'd make a pretty easy victim.  I always tried to get other people
(men or women friends) to go with me, but always ended up disappointed
because they couldn't go when I could, I couldn't go when they could, or
we didn't want to go to the same places.  One weekend I just decided that
it was worth the risk to get out there in the woods!  I packed up my stuff,
told a couple of people where I was going and when I expected to get back,
and backpacked 8.5 miles in to a beautiful waterfall.  I was a bit nervous
at nightfall, but the sky was beautiful and I had made a point of picking
a trip that would wear me out, so I was soon asleep.  It was one of the most
beautiful, relaxing trips I can ever remember.  Since that time I've done
many trips alone, and always enjoyed them.
Some basic precautions are a decent idea, though:  know how to survive in
the backcountry if you are injured and have to care for yourself, maybe take
a basic self defense course (I did, years ago), carry a knife with you (not
in your pack), let people you trust know where you are going and, oh yeah,
try to avoid hunting season!!
You have as much right to enjoy the beauty of the wilderness as the next
(wo)man, so please don't let your fear stop you -- instead prepare yourself
so you have no reason to fear...
Kathleen
From: gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: An Insight
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:19:16 GMT
Reply-To: gascan@dcst16.dc
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

In article micki@netcom.com, micki@netcom.com (Michelle Stone) writes:
> 
> I have often wondered.... since there isn't any wind or any other erosion 
> on the moon... haven't we already polluted it with .... footprints?
> 
> Michelle

I submit that you may be stretching the definition of 'pollution' a little.

If you think about it, space enthusiasts and evironmentalists should
be natural allies.  After all, isn't the ultimate goal of the space program to
zone this entire planet residential/park by moving all the nasty polluting 
activities off planet?

---
1. Bill Gascoyne
From: fmt@mbf.UUCP (Mike Trimberger)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Monkeywrenching/USFS puppet
Summary: some choice...
Date: 24 Sep 92 16:48:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: MAI Systems Corp.

In article <1992Sep23.140608.13459@news2.cis.umn.edu> kevin@ssc.space.umn.edu (Groenke) writes:
...
>	3)You can vote for Clinton/Gore.  Sure it may not be much of a slight
>Bush and Clinton, but compare Quail and Gore!  Al Gore has been dedicated
>to preserving the environment for years.  He has a plan for restructuring

From what I've read,  Gore is about as good an environmentalist as Bush
is.  His only credential seems to be a book that is based on opinion
instead of fact. 

...or so I've read...
-- 
F. Michael Trimberger 					   MAI Systems Corp.
 fmt%mbf.uucp@ics.uci.edu 				   14192 Franklin Ave
or: {ucivax,uunet!ccicpg,sequent}!mbf!fmt   		   Tustin, Ca 92680
[system administrator in training - sink or swim method]   (714) 730-2934
From: holder@gourde.positron.med.ge.com (Kacy Holder)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: GSMNP in October
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:36:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: gourde.HOLDER.92Sep28103653
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computer People Unlimited, Milwaukee, WI


We're off to the Smokies (Great Smokey Mtn National Park) October 15-21
for some fall car camping and I was looking for some information.
No backcountry this time -- we're taking our 2.5 year-old son.

(I know.  We're horrid-people-with-children.  But we
don't build cairns, hunt, or bring along cows.  :-)

We'll be staying on the NC side (thanks to this news group)
at Smokemont and were hoping someone could give us an idea
of the temperature ranges in the Park this time of year.
Any particular day-trips or sights we shouldn't miss?
This is our first time in the park so we've sent for some
information from the Park but any email or post
would be appreciated.

--
Katharine C. Holder
Computer People Unlimited, Inc.
email: holderk@positron.med.ge.com

"These opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the client for whom 
 I am working or Computer People Unlimited, Inc."
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:50:00 GMT
Re:  Strip minnning in Nat'l Parks.

I don't like the result but I can understand the legal logic.  I
think!

What seems to have happened was that in establishing the parks, the
government went through the process of compensating property holders
of the surface rights.  They did not compensate the holders of
mineral rights and infact never acquired the mineral rights.
Essentailly the govt bought the surface but not what lies below the
surface.  This was thought to be a neat manuveur since the
government
controlled the surface, it could simply deny access to the holders
of
the rights to the mineral below the surface.  It appeared to be away
to avoid paying for the rights yet getting the benefits for the
public.

What has now happened is that it looks like the court sees denying
access as equivalent to siezure.  If it is siezure, the constitution
requires compensation.  I don't know Luhan's true motives but the
alternatives seem to be to pay compensation or permit access (i.e.,
minning).  Perhaps the prime purpose is not to open up mines but to
get Congress to fund compensation.

The issue of Parks is only immeadiate issue; the legal theory
involves rules about how government can behave.  Personally, I have
sympathy with the court's position.  Suppose the govt decides to
build a freeway through your neighborhood (let's assume we all agree
this is a good thing!).  If it routes the freeway by your property
in a way that prevents access but does not actually touch your
property they might decide you are not entitled to compensation
since your property was not siezed.  Yet, your property has become
un usable.  (BTW, this sort of thing does happen sometimes - it is
NOT hypothetical.)  The court is currently moving toward a position
that to deny use is the same as siezure.  (I think the technical
legalism is to cite the "takings clause" of the Constitution.)

What we are faced with is a re-interpretation of a legal priciple
that has implications that I see as both beneficial and harmful.
Yet within the context of the Constitution, I don't see how you can
have one without the other in this case.

The best resolution, IMHO, is just to have the Congress authorize
the "taking" of the mineral rights and then pay "just compensation".
 This will be expensive but I expect it could be covered by the
rounding error in the SL bailout calculations!