HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:35:58 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <10010690@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes:
> In rec.sport.baseball, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
> 
>> 	Perhaps instead of RBI, something like 'percentage of runners driven in
>> from scoring position' could be used
> 
> It's still not good enough.  Cecil may drive in 30% (I'm making this up), walk
> 5% of the time, and make an out the other 65% of the time.  Whereas Lou may
> drive in only 25%, but walk 20% of the time, and only make outs 55% of the
> time.  You can try to eyeball the two sets of numbers to decide which you like
> better, but there is no guarantee you will come up with the right answer.  Your
> gut may say "it's better to take the surer run Cecil gives you" , but this
> might not in fact turn out to be the right answer.  In this particular case, a
> simple simulation might tell you which leads to more runs in the long run.  But
> how do you tell in general?  Simply looking at RBI% is not good enough.
> 

	Nothing does seem to be good enough for you statheads, does it? I was
simply trying to come up with an alternative to RBIs, not create the One True
Stat. Sheesh. I personally would rather see a batter's SLG, OBP, and RBI%
rather than his BA, HR, and RBI totals, 'cause they mean a lot more.

> The whole point of statistics like OPS or RC/27 or MLV or Linear Weights is
> that they are already calibrated to make this determination - although in the
> case of OPS or even RC/27, the calibration is mostly accidental.  But think
> about it - we want to know not only how often he drove in runs, but how often
> he didn't take away chances at scoring more (ie, make outs), in order to learn
> his true worth to the team.  The first, rate of driving in runs, is almost
> entirely dependent on SLG, and the latter, not making outs, is simply the
> inverse of OBP.  If you really want to separate out "how well he did with
> runners in scoring position" from "how well he did in general", fine, go ahead.
> But don't get trapped into thinking the only important at bats are the ones
> with runners on; obviously, you need to get the runners there in the first
> place.  And - surprise, surprise - SLG and OBP tell you most of what you need
> to know about how often a guy gets on, and how far on he puts himself.

	How in the world did you get all this from my one line? I just said
that a stat for the RATE of runs driven in would be better than a stat for the
NUMBER of runs driven in. I didn't say I wanted RBI% to be the *only* stat -- I
wanted it to be a replacement for one that is constantly abused and misused.
Well, some people just like to type...

Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Juan Gonzales (40+ homers before age 23)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:21:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.181020.9331@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.144002.27435@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In <5773@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:

>>>It seems that not long ago it was fairly common to see 17, 18 and 19 year
>>>old kids playing at the major league level.  Now a days it's a rarity.
>>>With guys like Yount starting their careers at 18 and playing 19 or more 
>>>full seasons to reach their various career highs (hit, hrs sbs whatever)
>>>is it realistic to expect the guys that come up today at 21, 22 or 23 years
>>>of age to be able to approach the career numbers of the older players.

>Hmmm.  Something one often hears announcers saying is that players
>today spend too little time in the minors.  So, which is it, I wonder?

Actually, these two statements are not necessarily incompatible, if you
don't consider college baseball to be the minors.

But both statements are incorrect.  It has never been common for any but
the *best* players to be up before 20, and players today don't spend
less time in the minors than they used to.
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Orioles 1992 World Series Champions
niepornt@phoenix.    | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
   princeton.edu     | Brady Anderson 1992 AL MVP
Vote Clinton/Gore '92.   Four more months!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: BLOCKBUSTER TRADE!
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:10:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.203503.27240@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.184451.4987@island.COM> don@island.COM (Don Hermes) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.052431.16927@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>
>>>I think the trade will cost Oakland in the long run, unless they can sign
>>>Sierra.  
>>
>>I've seen and heard this line of reasoning before. And it doesn't make 
>>sense.
>>In order for Oakland to have made a 'good' trade they have to sign
>>someone who they would have had the same chance to sign had they not
>>made the trade.
>>Think about it.
>
>YOU think about it.  If Oakland signs him during the off-season without having
>traded for him, they have to give up 2 high draft picks.  (Not that Sierra's
>worth less than 2 high draft picks)

Uh, Nelson? Would you rather have CANSECO or the 2 high picks? If they made the
deal just to avoid giving up the picks, then the deal REALLY looks dumb.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Ma. Elena Y. Francisco)
Subject: California Angles Schedule?
Reply-To: mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:11:28 GMT

I will be in Southern California area from the 25th - 29th September.
I would like to know if the Angels will be in town on Saturday 26th.
Please could anyone e-mail me their schedule for those particular
stretch of days.

Thanks very much.


--
==============================================================================
Lyn Francisco, First Year Graduate Student      |"There is no power stronger
Brandeis University, Dept. of Chemistry         | Than gentleness of heart."
BitNet:    mfrancis@brandeis.bitnet             |
Internet:  mfrancis@binah.cc.brandeis.edu       |          -- Jose Mari Chan
==============================================================================
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Amazing Walk Total
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:39:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Sep9.193920.5866
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

In article <1992Sep9.182541.20103@news.iastate.edu>, sckelm@iastate.edu (Steven C Kelm) writes:
|> This is one of the most amazing things I've seen this year.
|> 
|> Randy Johnson   172 innings ..... 124 BB !!!
|> 
|> Good grief - is this close to some kind of record for a season?

The record (BB/IP) belongs to Tommy Byrne who in 1949 walked 179 in 196 IP.
His current pace would place him 11th on the single season list. The Big Unit
already holds down seventh place for a single season for his fine 152 walks
in in 201 innings in 1991.

The career leader (min 500 IP), is also Tommy Byrne with .76 BB/IP. Johnson,
with 375 walks in 607 IP sits 17th on the career list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: uzogg@mcl.ucsb.edu (Kevin Galinsky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: REPOST: Information on MLB Stadiums
Date: 11 Sep 92 06:16:35 GMT

Sorry!  If that's what you want to call it, that's fine with me.  I just
thought some people might like to know its official name (no flames, please).

  -- Kevin Galinsky


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:08:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep03.130920.14982@dlogics.com> trr@dlogics.com (Tim Ringwood) writes:
>thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>>No -- nobody's done it more often than Cecil Fielder.  That doesn't mean
>>he's the best at it, just that he's happened to be in the lineup with
>>the most opportunities.

>>Canseco's much better at it.  And he eats up many fewer outs in the process.

>>For example, in 1991, Canseco had 178 PA with runners in scoring position,
>>made 112 outs, and had 85 RBI.  Thomas had 192 PA with RISP, made 96 outs,
>>and had 75 RBI.  Fielder had 209 PA with RISP, made 125 outs, and had 88 RBI.

>Which means that Jose gets out 63% of the time, and Cecil 61% of the time.

And Thomas 50%...

>Sounds "much better" to me.  

Hey, wait a minute! A moment ago, we were hearing how his job was to
drive in runs.  Canseco gets 48 RBI per 100 ups with RISP; Fielder only
42.  RBI/out is similar: .70 vs .76 for canseco.  

>Cecil's worth can't be measure by stats. Yes

Indeed -- stats like "wins" are not affected as much by Fielder as by
many other players.  His worth would seem to be primarily in Rotisserie
leagues.  

(Doncha love this?  The moment the statistical arguments fall apart, 
"his worth can't be measured by stats.")

>this season is not as good as the last couple, but he's a smart hitter and
>does what needs to be done at the plate.  

380 outs already this year say you're wrong about that.

>Jose plays for Jose, and has
>since I saw him in A ball. Cecil plays for the Tigers, and sometimes his
>stats suffer for it. 

Yeah, right.  Tell me again how Canseco's superior hitting and fielding
haven't helped the A's over a longer period.  Tell me again how Fielder's
failure to walk more has helped the Tigers.  It really doesn't matter
what's going through Canseco's mind when he's hitting; the hits and walks
and homers work just the same.

> He'll hit the ball to the right side with no outs with a man on second in a 
>close game. This counts against him by all the stats you guys have, but it is 
>good baseball.

Even if it loses more games than it wins? (Besides, which stats say it's
a bad play?  Enquiring minds want to know.)

For many righty hitters it's a bad play, because they lose their power
that way and wind up lining to 1B or 2B for a cheap DP.  Or they ground
out and make a 0- or 1-run inning much more likely.  

>Hell I have a math major, know stats theory okay, and I have come to believe
>that stats and baseball go together like George Bush and Hillary Clinton.

REally?  Could you tell us why?  What aspect of statistical 
theory are you thinking of?  (I was a stats major myself, work as 
a statistical consultant, and so far cannot discern any competent
statistical thinking in what you've written.  You're welcome to 
prove me wrong.)

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: roy NL
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:06:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.171411.18718@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.151118.1557@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>>Why do you have this fascination with part-timers? It is a FACT that neither
>>Alou nor Sanders have nearly as much playing time as Karros. It is also a 
>>FACT that Karros plays in a much more difficult park for hitters: in fact, the
>>5-year average for SLG and HR increase is higher for Riverfront than for any
>>other park in the majors (yes, including Wrigley, Tiger Stadium, and Atlanta).
>
>Why do you have this fascination with everyday players, even if they are below
>average?  By your logic, Tony Pena (who played nearly everyday for Boston)
>would be more valuable than Chris Hoiles, who missed half of the season,
>despite the fact that Pena is almost the worst offensive catcher you can find
>in the majors this year, and that Hoiles is the best in the AL?

Uh, Nelson, we were comparing a couple of platoon players (Alou and Sanders)
to an everyday player (Karros). I *DID* point out the rather large park effect
difference, which you have yet to address; Riverfront is one of the BEST 
hitters' parks, Dodger Stadium one of the worst, in the major leagues. But, 
I will address your point; How many games did Hoiles help his team win when 
he was on the DL? 

Again, if you ain't playing, you ain't contributing.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: McGwire and Cortisone (was personal attacks)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:58:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.202820.28908@honte.uleth.ca> savoy@hg.uleth.ca writes:

>> zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary FDA Approved Huckabay) writes:

>>Mark McGwire has thus far failed to respond to the cortisone shot he
>>received earlier in the week, and may be out for the full season,
>>including the playoffs.  He will play tonight against Seattle, and,
>>hopefully, will not feel pain in his lower rib cage, but I'm not
>>betting on it.

>Does anyone one know anything about cortisone shots? Don't they simply dull  
>the pain? 

No, absolutely not.  They have no direct effect on the pain; cortisone
is a strong local anti-inflammatory in its effect, which keeps irritated,
swollen muscles from reinjuring themselves constantly.  Of course, 
lessening the irritation lessens the pain, too, at the same time as it
makes healing much easier.  But it's not a painkiller per  se.

>And in the case of a rib-cage injury, wouldn't McGwire be taking a
>great risk? If he swings his guts out and feels no pain, how can the rib-cage
>muscle stand the force being exerted on it?

That's a risk either way; of course, after the cortisone shot, the muscle
isn't in as bad a state, either.

On the other hand, I bet McGwire's doctor has thought about this.

>I was thinking McGwire should just stay out of the line-up for the next 4
>weeks and hopefully make it back for the playoffs (if they make the playoffs,
>that is). If he hurts himself tonight, he might be done for the year.

Again, a risk that his attending physician has to evaluate.

Roger
From: rz-rios@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Roger Z. Rios-Mercado)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: USA-CUBA Final Score
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:29:11 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas


     CHAMPIONSHIP GAME
     AAA WORLD TOURNAMENT
     Monterrey Stadium
     Monterrey, NL (MEXICO)

     U.S.A.        1
     CUBA          6

     Cuba made it once again.

     Roger Z. Rios-Mercado
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rembo@ossi.com (Tony Rems)
Subject: Ftp site for baseball scores? 
Keywords: baseball scores ftp
Organization: Open Systems Solutions Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:39:45 GMT

Is there an ftp site that carries up-to-the-minute (or relatively)
sports scores?   It'd be nice to be able to check scores while I'm
working.  

For my own up-to-the-minute score update:

A's 6
Seattle 4

Ruben Sierra hit a 3-run homer.  


-Tony 

Go A's.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Tony Rems                          | 90% of baseball is pitching.           | 
| OSSI (Openly Silly Solutions Inc.) | The other 10% is wishing that you      | 
| (510)-652-6200 (x-401)             | had pitching.                          |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Tony Rems			     | When you drink, drink responsibly, death|
| OSSI (Openly Silly Solutions Inc.) | from overconsumption is no way to die.  |
| (510)-652-6200 (x-401)	     | Not if there are cold ones in the fridge|
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re:  Juan Gonzales
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:21:54 GMT

In article <9209132116.AA13400@bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> C Robert Claydon <cclaydon@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>
>I wasn't disputing that he didn't/doesn't have a chane to be a very good, if 
>not great player;  I was just wondering if all this brock projection for him 
>having 700+ homers wasn't a little premature and silly...

Of course it's premature and silly!  Among other things, he's likely
to miss time due to injuries now and then.  And predicting a 60 HR
season, while not ridiculous, is unlikely...

Some players bloom earlier than others.  Is it more likely that
Gonzalez is at the peak of his game five years early?  Or that he will
improve significantly beyond his current level?

>The other thing to remember is that another Ranger outfielder not to
>long ago put up some impressive stats at a young age, but hasn't
>really done a lot since to make a strong HOF argument for himself (ie:
>Ruben Sierra).  Don't get me wrong, Sierra's a good player, but I, for
>one, wouldn't list him as one of the top 5 outfielders in baseball the
>past 5 or so years.

Sierra was a 20-year old rookie.
1986	382	.302/.476
1987	643	.302/.470
1988	615	.301/.424
1989	634	.347/.543
1990	608	.330/.426
1991	661	.357/.502
1992	504	.316/.444

He hasn't exactly shown a definite pattern!  :-) In 1988, 1990, and
this year he has been rather average.  Same in 1987, considering how
well everybody was slugging that year.  So we are left with a player
who was immediately successful, but has been mostly average since then
except for two HOF-ish seasons.

Dunno what to say.  Given that he was capable of being a quality major
league player at the age of 20, you kind of expect a few HOF seasons.
But why so many average ones intermixed?

-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: Sequoia Peripherals, Inc.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 23:19:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.131825.856@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>        Well, if the greed of the players, owners, and little kids who collect
>baseball cards for profit rather than fun don't destroy the game, statheads
>like you will. When you start expecting people to know advanced statistics,
>quantum physics, and tarot card reading to properly understand baseball, you
>have gone too far. Why can't you just accept that Tabler, over most of his
>career, has been an excellent hitter with the bases loaded? I'm not saying he
>still is, or that he belongs in the HOF because of it.

Tabler, over most of his career, *has* been an excellent hitter
with the bases loaded. Noone in his right mind would argue
with that. And if that's all you were saying, there wouldn't
be any problem.

But that's not all people are saying. They are saying that Tabler
does *so* well with the bases loaded that he must have some
special kind of talent in that situation.

And maybe he does. But the stats sure aren't persuasive.

I forget what Dr. Dave called the branch of statistics that applies
to this situation, his argument seems like simple common sense to
me, not mathematical mumjo-jumbo or advanced statistics. All he's
saying is that if hitting with the bases loaded were exactly the same 
talent as hitting in other situations, *somebody* would still have
the best record in baseball in this situation. If you want to look
around and find that somebody and use him as evidence of their being
a special "batting with the bases loaded" skill, then his numbers
had better be truly amazing. 

And according to Dr. Dave, Tabler's numbers aren't good enough to be 
considered truly amazing.


The Other Dr. Dave


-- 
Dave Eisen    dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU   Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644
      There's something in my library to offend everybody.
        --- Washington Coalition Against Censorship
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rising@zoo.toronto.edu (Jim Rising)
Subject: Walking as a skill
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:59:01 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

The Jays as a team are walking more this year.  Perhaps we can 
thank Hisle for that.  Still, I've been watching Devon White to
try to figure out why he doesn't walk more (I mean, his OBP is
about 1 1/2 Bob Uecker's lifetime batting average--not so
swift for a leadoff batter, but that's another story).  It's not
that he doesn't take pitches, but that he takes the wrong ones.
He seems to usually watch the first one or two go by, then first
thing you know he's down 0-2 or 1-2, and he strikes out swinging
at a ball out of the strike zone.  Olerud in the same situation
usually will still only swing at a strike.
-- 
Name:     Jim Rising
Mail:     Dept. Zoology, Univ. Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    M5S 1A1
UUCP:     uunet!attcan!utzoo!rising 
BITNET:   rising@zoo.utoronto.ca
From: trr@dlogics.com (Tim Ringwood)
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Organization: Datalogics, Inc.
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 13:09:20 GMT

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:


>No -- nobody's done it more often than Cecil Fielder.  That doesn't mean
>he's the best at it, just that he's happened to be in the lineup with
>the most opportunities.

>Canseco's much better at it.  And he eats up many fewer outs in the process.

>For example, in 1991, Canseco had 178 PA with runners in scoring position,
>made 112 outs, and had 85 RBI.  Thomas had 192 PA with RISP, made 96 outs,
>and had 75 RBI.  Fielder had 209 PA with RISP, made 125 outs, and had 88 RBI.

Which means that Jose gets out 63% of the time, and Cecil 61% of the time.
Sounds "much better" to me.  Cecil's worth can't be measure by stats. Yes
this season is not as good as the last couple, but he's a smart hitter and
does what needs to be done at the plate.  Jose plays for Jose, and has
since I saw him in A ball. Cecil plays for the Tigers, and sometimes his
stats suffer for it. 

 He'll hit the ball to the right side with no outs with a man on second in a 
close game. This counts against him by all the stats you guys have, but it is 
good baseball.

Hell I have a math major, know stats theory okay, and I have come to believe
that stats and baseball go together like George Bush and Hillary Clinton.
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 3000 hit Trivia
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:04:19 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology


In article <1992Sep15.192513.14823@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com  
(Paul Andresen) writes:
> On ESPN, on the occasion of Yount's 3000th hit, they mentioned that if  
Brett
> makes it this year (looking less and less likely, BTW), it would only be  
the
> 4th time in history that two players have made the club in the same year.
> Actually, there have already been four such events. Yount/Brett would be  
the
> fifth.
> 
> Here's the clue. This has happened in 1914
> 				      1925
> 				      1970
> 				      1979
> 				      (espn missed '25)
> 
> I supplied the years. You supply the names.
> 
I think I know, but ,gee, it was only posted <2hrs. ago,
so I'll confine myself to commenting that that means 
that of the first 15 to reach 3000 hits, 8 of reached 
3000 in the same year (more than half). 
If Brett reaches 3000 this year that'll increase the
percentage of 'paired achievers' to an even higher number.
The question is, is this just a random oddity, a statement
about the history of the game or a little bit of both?

john rickert      rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
If the Orioles opponents leave a runner on first base is 
he stranded on Milligan's island?