HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Non-existant Talmud Quotes (was Supposed Talmud (was Almah In Isa))
Date: 9 Jan 93 23:14:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


       -=> Quoting Harvey Smith to Bill Carlson <=-

 HS> To: Bill Carlson...

 BC> I think, (in part), Harvey was perhaps referring to the 
 BC> following:

 HS> Thanks Bill, those are exactly the verses i was looking for.  And
 HS> i am still searching out who Moses Hadarshan was.  Can you help,
 HS> and is there a book he wrote, that i can get?  -!- msgedsq 2.1
 HS>  ! Origin: The MESSIAH NET MJCN1 -=>314-227-6885<=-(8:7002/1)
 HS> (8:7002/1.0)

Sure.  Moses ha-Darshan was an 11th century scholar aggadist of
Narbonne.  He was frequently quoted by Rashi and others.  He was the
author of a midrashic anthology which was the basis of Genesis Rabbati
- which itself was based on Genesis Rabbah, to which much material from
the Talmud and the Apocrypha was added.  Also certain other midrashim
are held to emanate from his school.

That any Talmudic material involved in his darash didn't have any fol.
numbers or a/b letters is to be expected.  What it not to be expected
though is that folks would give you such a hard time after you provided
the location in the Rebbe's commentary, since he is not some "light-
weight" Rabbinic scholar; and the ref.'s to his material that you gave
would have been sufficient to most any one familiar with the writings
of the sages to research the material, - unless, (through lack of a
defense), they were acting like they didn't know what you were talking
about, - perhaps just to try and make you look bad.

... 012 New Wave -or- (the) Old Flood ! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:57:28 GMT



Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:

> Now how do you obtain mercy from the G-d whose covenant you perpetually
> break, and attempt to explain away his covenant and laws?

Do you care to describe how I perpetually break His covenent?

> What for Dov, why should we even ask you anything.  You prove your lack of
> interest in real scholarship....  And always attempt coverups...

My lack of interest in real scholarship?  Tell me, Harvey, how much Talmud
have you studied in the original?  My lack of interest in real scholarship?
How much time per day do you spend studying Jewish textual sources?  My lack
of interest in real scholarship?  We're still waiting for the sources you
promised...

Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu

 

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Organization: University of Turku
Distribution: alt
Date: 5 Jan 93 12:55:42

>Newsgroups: alt.messianic
>From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
>Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 00:11:01 GMT
>Organization: IBM Research

>Perhaps your sect of Christianity doesn't think Christians
>are required to believe Jesus is God.  And Laura has also
>posted, that everyone has his/her own free will to believe
>or not to believe.  (But why is she so eager to get me
>to believe, then???  Perhaps I'm already saved!)

I didn't mean that those who don't believe would be saved. Just that
it's impossible to reach God with human reasoning, to believe something
that seems impossible -- God coming as a human being to save those who
believe. No -- it's God himself who gives the faith for those who *accept* 
Yeshua as their saviour, and ask him to their hearts.

Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other 
            name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Our *own* works have nothing to do with salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
         -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not 
         by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship,
         created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in
         advance for us to do."

Thus we have to be obedient to God, so that we would do the works he 
has prepared for us. In Matthew 7:21 Yeshua says:
 
         "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
          kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father
          who is in heaven."

I would like you to join us, because I see hell wide open in front of you.
(See e.g. Dan 12:2, Brachot 28b)

BTW I'd like to know what is your concept of repentance ? (Or anyone 
else's ?) Rob L once said something like "one's path of repentance 
usually includes charity", which seems to me a misunderstanding of the
whole issue. 

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: A note to sci.skeptic/alt.atheism posters.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 9:33:44 -0500 (EST)


ATTENTION: ALL posters from SCI.SKEPTIC, ALT.ATHEISM

 Would you please remove the reference to ALT.MESSIANIC from your posts.
 
 While some of the topics DO deal with Christian issues, this newsgroup
 is for Messianic Judaism dialog. 

 Thanks for your understanding that we would like our news group back, and
 we request your assistance in the cleanup.

 Bruce Benning - Benning@astro.cs.hh.ab.com


Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:26:52

In article <fXFbINL@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> In article <141769.2B4B6601@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> 
> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
> >>> JL> why do so many Christian translations and commentaries 
> >>> JL> accept "young woman" as the correct text and either reject 
> >>> JL> or question "virgin?"
> >Only in liberal non biblical churches Jack... Many have departed from the
> >faith, no longer believing in the virgin birth, or the Scriptures as being 
> >anything but the Word of God.

> The logic is - fascinating.

Well, the professor of NT exegetics of the University of Helsinki believes
neither in virgin birth, nor in the resurrection. And he has an important
position in educating new Lutheran ministers. The whole Finnish department
of the faculty of theology in Finland (in Helsinki -- there's a Swedish
speaking department here in Turku) is dominated by liberals, who don't
believe that the Bible is the word of God, but want to tear it into tiny 
pieces in the name of "scientific research". Our new Bible translation
is even worse than the earlier version, because the conservative opinions 
and suggestions for corrections in the translation process were systematically
neglected.

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Secular Jews
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 00:18:12 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <141657.2B3F24E6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
|> 
|>      Regardless of differences, and things that we may not agree upon
|>      regarding our differing approach to both the Mitzvot and halachah;
|>      there is one thing that is in common between the groups: they are
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^
|>      Jewish, and believe that Y'shua is the Messiah.  That is aprox.
|>      14.5% + of the total ethnic Jewish population, and growing.
|> 

I'd like to pin you down here.  By "the groups", I assume you
mean Hebrew Christians, Jews for Jesus, and Messianics, plus
assimilated Jews in conventional Gentile churches.  Is your
figure of 14.5% inclusive of all of these, or is it more narrowly
inclusive only of Messianics, as seemed to be implied earlier?
By "Jewish", I assume you mean "halachically Jewish".
By "believer", I assume you mean anyone nominally Christian?

So my wife's sister's son is being counted in this 14.5%, for
example?  (my wife's sister became Christian at 12, later
married an Evangelical Congregationalist Minister.)

My assimilated nephew who married a Gentile, is totally
non-religious, but occasionally shows up at a church with
his in-laws, is counted too?

My wife's brother's son is not counted, right? (The brother
converted and married a Gentile Christian)

How was this figure of 14.5% estimated?



-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:34:49 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <141793.2B4D63A8@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>I think you are harping on things you know nothing about, and are just using words.  you have yet to come up with any references etc.. 

Perhaps you've had an incomplete feed. Let's try the references again.
Brown, Driver, Briggs, Koehler, Baumgartner, Holiday, RSV, NEB,
JPS, NJPS, etc. All of these refer to dictionaries or translations
which are relatively easy to search. To the best of my knowledge
I have made no assertions regarding the meaning of "almah" based
on my own original research. Rather I have provided references
to the finest scholarship available to us on this topic, including
exact page references to the sources--which anyone can find without
resorting to mysterious friends at Oxford.

By the way, I do my best to avoid flames on the Internet, although
being human, I do occasionally fail. In the case of my designation of
you as a "medieval" scholar, I don't believe I committed that sin. I
believe that the methodology that you use in your postings resembles
that of medieval theologians and has little or nothing in common with
what most of us on the Internet associate with the scientific method.

I'll repeat my earlier message that I'll be happy to supply my bona
fides to anyone on the Internet who so requests.
-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 6 Jan 93 12:47:59 GMT
	<1icalhINNhfh@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Organization: University of Turku

In article <1icalhINNhfh@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
> In article <141729.2B489D7A@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
> > JL> modern. If the debate is between anyone and "Christians" why 
> > JL> do so many Christian translations and commentaries accept 
> > JL> "young woman" as the correct text and either reject or 
> > JL> question "virgin?"
> >
> >Only in the modern era Jack.  only in modern translations that have not been accepted by the majority of Christians...

> Happens to be the era I live in Harvey, unlike yourself evidently. As

Thus the era we are living in determines what is the truth, right ?

> for translations "not accepted by the majority of Christians"--that's
> kind of interesting to me. I remember very distinctly being cautioned
> by an evangelical Christian that Roman Catholics are not "Christians"
> because they value the teachings of the Church more than the Gospel.
> Is this the context of your remarks? Are you excluding Roman Catholics,
> Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc. etc. from your 
> definition of Christians? Because translations officially adopted
> by all of those Churches accept "young woman" over "virgin." 

Who cares ? People who trust Rabbis' advice and are blind to see their
motives in these kind of issues can be lead astray. 

> >And to the wording "Young Woman espoused" we have no difficulty with either..
> >as that is the correct rendering of the word "almah",  which is utilized before a woman has her first child in Biblical hebrew..

> Sorry Harvey, the volume of your verbiage does not mean you 
> are correct. Almah means "young woman" and has nothing to say one
> way or another about virginity in the modern English sense of 
> that word. This is the consensus of all modern scholarship. If 
> you wish to believe otherwise, that is your perogative. But it 
> is belief that is your motivation. 

It dinna v'it dayanna. First of all, Harvey is a scholar, which refutes
your "consensus of all modern scholarship". Second, the fact the 'almah'
means 'virgin' has been proven here on AM. You can tell that to those 
beloved scholars of yours.

> ________________________________________
> Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
> 		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Experiencing Shabbos With an Anti-Missionary
X-Sender: newtout 0.06 Jan  3 1993
Date: 08 Jan 93  09:52:27

In a message of <Jan 06 06:16>, Laura Johanna Manninen (1:103/208) writes: 
 >                                                     There is no mysticism
 >in the Sabbath.

This is the crucial fallacy which causes the author's argument to fail
completely.  There is mysticism in Shabbot and even I, a gentile, have 
experienced it.

The mysticism is that of the community {mishpachah} (?translit.) experienced
when standing united with others not just for social or intellectual purposes 
but for spiritual uplifting and reconnection.  (Religion from latin re-ligio
-> to re-connect.)

My experience with Messianic Jews is that this community element is missing
except for a yiddishkeit schtick.  Those crucial elements of community of
support, communion, love, confession, comfort, encouragement, challenge and
compassion are, in my experience, missing from the MJ environment.  

Now, I do not blame Messianic Judaism for this failure.  I rarely find these
elements to be present within the church and from speaking to my Jewish
friends who are not Messianic these elements are not the norm there either. 
It seems that this ever so vital community element that I see evidenced in the 
New Testament body of believers has almost been lost.

My suggestion is that the mysticism of community, whether it be manifest in
Shabbot or elsewhere, not only should but must be incorporated into our lives.

The author declares that facts rather than experiences must define our
actions.  There is some truth to this.  However, if we do not create an
environment where we not only have the freedom to act but are encouraged to
act, challenged to act, held lovingly accountable when we do not act, can
confess when our actions have fallen short, then all the facts in the world
will sit idly on the shelf doing no one any good.  The tomb is indeed empty
but we need not have equally empty hearts.

Finding the mysticism of Shabbot, or however else community is manifest in
your body of believers, is the answer not only to the Anti-Missionary but to
the JW and the Mormon or any other who would draw people away from the One
True God.

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


--- Squish v1.00
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 02:32:13 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <141769.2B4B6601@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
[I have reformatted some very long lines ....RS]
|> >> JL> why do so many Christian translations and commentaries 
|> >> JL> accept "young woman" as the correct text and either reject 
|> >> JL> or question "virgin?"
|> 
|> Only in liberal non biblical churches Jack...  
|> Many have departed from the faith, no longer believing in the virgin birth, 
|> or the Scriptures as being anything but the Word of God.
|> 

This doesn't make sense.  

If they don't believe that the Scriptures are the word of God,
then they don't need to change the meaning of "almah" in order
to disbelieve the virgin birth.  They could just argue
that the prophecy is symbolic.  (As you conservative
Christians do elsewhere in Isaiah with "he shall see
his offspring and prolong his days".)

And if they do believe the Scriptures are the word of God,
then they shouldn't believe in the virgin birth
unless they're convinced that the Scriptures actually say "virgin".

You make it sound as if the v.b. is a Protestant dogma.

Your scenario only makes sense if they believe the
Scriptures are the word of God, and they take the
*absence* of virgin birth as a dogma, retrofitting
their scholarship to this unorthodox dogma.  This
sounds pretty unlikely, since it presupposes not
liberalism but a kind of dogmatic heresy.

The most convincing reason that so many scholars,
both Jewish and Christian, reject the meaning
of "virgin" for "almah" is that the word simply
doesn't mean "virgin".

Elsewhere in your postings you imply that that the only
true scholars are the ones who have complete faith in
their conclusions before they begin --- a very odd
notion of scholarship, and one which is at complete
variance with mine.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:57:13 GMT


Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:

> Now how do you obtain mercy from the G-d whose covenant you perpetually
> break, and attempt to explain away his covenant and laws?

Do you care to describe how I perpetually break His covenent?

> What for Dov, why should we even ask you anything.  You prove your lack of
> interest in real scholarship....  And always attempt coverups...

My lack of interest in real scholarship?  Tell me, Harvey, how much Talmud
have you studied in the original?  My lack of interest in real scholarship?
How much time per day do you spend studying Jewish textual sources?  My lack
of interest in real scholarship?  We're still waiting for the sources you
promised...

Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 7 Jan 1993 21:24:33 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <LJMORLY.93Jan7215648@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>Aw stop deleting what you've written before me. 

I'm abiding by fairly standard practices on the Internet to save
bandwith. I don't think I've ever misquoted you.


>> >> > Harvey is a scholar
>> >
>> >> By whose definition?
>> >
>> >Anybody's except anti-missionaries'.
>
>> What are his qualifications? Does he publish in peer-reviewed
>> journals? So far the only material I have seen from him appears
>> to be deliberately misleading or flat out wrong.
>
>Oh really ?

In fact he's admittted to numerous errors (especially regarding
citations). These errors seem to me to be a modus operandi of
his--deliberately confusing in a shallow attempt to make it 
appear that he has knowledge where he has none. This behavior
would be quite unacceptable at any of the institutions with
which I've been associated.

>> ... In case you have not 
>> noticed, I have based virtually all of my comments on the 
>> scholarship of Christians.
> 
>Maybe you haven't noticed that this newgroup is about Messianic 
>JUDAISM.  :-] 

Frankly, after two months of reading this stuff, I still can't
figure out what this is and how it differs from Jews for Jesus.
Does this statement mean you're not Christians?

>And that's the problem ! I have ! You can come up with as many scholars 
>as you like and that doesn't have any effect on the issue itself, since
>we aren't discussing what scholars to trust to, but THE MEANING OF THE 
>WORD 'ALMAH'. Now, if you haven't anything new to bring up to the issue 
>itself, I wish I don't need to waste my time anymore.

We don't appear to agree on whether the meaning of a Hebrew word is
established by your dictate. However, we do agree that discussing
it with you is a waste of time.

-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: an4789@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Anyone out there really reading this stuff?
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.messianic
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:26:55 GMT


I'm sending this message through the anonymous mail/news server, so that
anyone who replies to me is automatically "anonymized," so I won't know who
you are (if you care).

I'm wondering if any Jews out there are really reading this newsgroup as a
means of investigating beliefs.  If there are any Jews reading this newsgroup,
and the discussions about Biblical sources for christianity, in order to
decide what to believe, can you please send me e-mail at

        an4789@anon.penet.fi

The way the server works, I won't know who you are unless you tell me (in case
as a Jew you're uncomfortable discussing your interest in JC).

I'm just curious whether anyone's beliefs or practices lie in the ballance of
all the discussions here.  It is worth responding, because several informative
posters may stop posting if noone's beliefs are really being influenced.  If
you are really reading this to learn, and want the most informative posts,
please respond to this message and tell me about your interests in Jewish
belief in JC.  Unless you tell me your name, it'll be anonymous.

Thanks.

(A frequent poster)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:20:30 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 b> Harvey, could you repost this with linefeeds?  I can't read it!
 b> Thanks.
 b> -- Bruce Tiffany

It will become a file and booklet as soon as the research is completed..

However, what do you mean repost this with linefeeds?  in file form???? 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG