HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:34:07 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>I can't see that there is anything unlawful or even strange about
>temporarily (or even permanently) charging a fee for entrance to
>an area that is publicly owned.

The people of Stockholm owns the streets, and for this it doesn't
pay *anything*. Via the tax bill we pay for the *keeping* of the
streets. The ownership isn't the question. It's the *purpose* of
the streets. They are intended for transportation and public
living in general. The *essence* of "street life" is that it is
free of charge: people, houses, statues, all are free to watch.
If I want to look at (or show someone) the opera house, the royal
castle, the foreign office, the statue of Gustav II Adolf and Axel
Oxenstierna, why should I pay if it is one particular week in the
summer?

>Just as they can close off part of the street to build a
>bus terminal or whatever, they can temporarily reallocate it for
>some other use (such as a festival area, or even let somebody
>rent it for entirely private business).

They can? I hope you are a democrat like me, and consider it *us*
who decide these things (-: <irony> :-)

>Now, if they were to enclose your home or your workplace with
>this area and charge you a fee for going to work, then I might
>agree that you'll have some practical problem to solve.

The streets are part of my home.

>But
>you can't just walk away with any park bench you like simply
>because you are one of the 674,418 owners of it. :-)

That's exactly my point. I can sit on it, but I can't charge
others for sitting on it, nor take it home or break it in pieces.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:01:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.141828.10133@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.124439.26039@kth.se>, tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
>|> 
>|> Are you seriously saying that it's always the "stupid" (possibly also 
>|> "evil" ?) economic/political system's fault when "wonderful concepts" 
>|> don't work?
>
>Did I ?
>I didn't, and I didn't say evil, neither.

You did say (or write):

>>>I agree, most of these wonderful concepts don't work - BUT that's not
>>>because the idea is bad, it's because the (stupid) economical/political
>>>system is not capable or willing to handle these problems.

>|> Have you considered the fact that the "stupid" *reality* 
>|> could be the problem?
>
>The reality is not given by some god or whatever - the "stupid"
>economical system is one of the most important factors which shapes
>the reality.

I don't see what a hypothetical mythological entity has to do with 
this... OK, the economic system is an important part of reality, but 
quite a lot of out-of-touch-with-reality people tend to blaim everything 
on "ruthless capitalism" etc. and forget other things that make up 
reality, including physical laws...

And you can't choose your economic system entirely freely. I.e. you can 
not choose what relationship you want between unemployment, inflation, 
interest rates etc. These underlying "natural laws" of economic systems 
are also completely forgotten/ignored by many. Statements of the kind 
that you, Jan Arne, has made is indicative of this kind of ignorance.

>|> Of course, it would be nice if not a single person 
>|> on earth would have to starve, or be housed inadequately and so on, no 
>|> matter how the population expands, or the climate is, but it's fairly 
>|> naive to label the economical/political system "stupid" just because 
>|> this doesn't happen by snapping your fingers.
>
>:-)
>
>Can't we agree in that we should make it best possible - or do only you
>(and maybe your family) count ?

Did I ever write so? But what is "best"? To make it *look like* we could 
give everyone a job *tomrrow*, and following the Soviet Union in a 
general economic collapse? I don't think so. Socialism doesn't work.

Tomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jensen@adobe.com (Freddy Jensen)
Subject: Re: DISP meeting, Tuesday, August 18 1992.
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:08:20 GMT

  In article <1992Aug11.195054.16964@adobe.com> jensen@adobe.com (Freddy Jensen) writes:
  >                                                          ## ##
  >#####     #####    #####     ######     ########  ##### ## ## ##
  >#    #      #     #     #    #     #    ########  ######### ## ##
  >#     #     #    #       #   #      #   ########  ########### ##
  >#     #     #     #          #     #    ########  #############
  >#     #     #      #####     ######
  >#     #     #           #    #          ########  #############
  >#     #     #    #       #   #          ########  #############
  >#    #      #     #     #    #          ########  #############
  >#####     #####    #####     #          ########  #############
  >
  >Danish Information Systems Professionals in Silicon Valley
  >----------------------------------------------------------
  >
  >To:      DISP Members.
  >
  >From:    Freddy Jensen
  >
  >Date:    August 11, 1992
  >
  >Subject: Visit & presentation by Bjarne Stroustrup.
  >
  >
  .
  .
  .
  stuff deleted
  .
  .
  .


I just found out that this presentation by Bjarne Stroustrup will
be conducted in danish  so if you don't understand and/or speak
danish you probably should not attend.

Freddy
--
Freddy Jensen
Adobe Systems Incorporated
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900, Mountain View, California 94039-7900
(415)962-3869, Fax: (415)961-3769, Telex: 230172407, Email: jensen@adobe.com
--

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Organization: University of Joensuu
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:14:51 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:

>In article <1992Aug20.100850.25723@cs.joensuu.fi>, hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
>|> 
>|> Have you considered the possibility that 'the millions of people in
>|> Africa' are starving because the African governments are finding more
>|> urgent needs for their funds than to buy food for their citizens, like
>|> the government of Namibia who recently bought a private airplane,
>|> worth over US$ 25 million, for the president?
>|> 
>You could find lots of examples during the history. The worst is
>probably the western countries exploitation during a very long time.
>Now the African countries are stuck - the international community
>forces them to pay huge amount of money (loans and interests).

What has your answer to do with my question?



>|> What is the definition of 'need' you want to hear? (-:
>|> Who defines it? The all-knowing government?
>|> 
>My point is that you mix the words "need" and "afford".

OK, that is your point. Now -- read my lips -- *what* *is* *your*
*definition* *of* *__need__* ?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: steve@oceania.com (Steve Dakin)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Reply-To: steve@oceania.com
Organization: Oceania Health Care Systems
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:13:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.092120.6313@ludd.luth.se> pjotr@ludd.luth.se (Peter  
Sj|str|m) writes:
> [advocation of Water Festival deleted]
> 
> 	You get quite a bit more than 'walk the streets' too!
> 
> 		/Peter

pardon me if I'm jumping in kind of late, but when is the Water Festival?

=Steve
-- 
    Steve Dakin                      Oceania Health Care Systems 
 steve@oceania.com (NeXT mail)       Palo Alto, CA (415) 322-0127
 jester@oceania.com                  "That one deserves a ... WOW!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sveini@mack.uit.no (Svein-Ivar Lillehaug)
Subject: "Wise words" from the Swedish King
Keywords: Kings and seals 
Organization: University of Tromsoe
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:11:02 GMT

A couple of years ago when people thought that the seals were too cute
to be hunted, the swedish king gave the following statement while
visiting New Zealand:

	"How can Gro Harlem Brundtland manage to govern the Norwegian
	 people when she is not capable to deal with the problems of
	 Norwegian sealhunting?"

This statement is considered as the start of what was later refered to
as the "sealwar" (a popular topic to disscuss in s.c.n from time to
time).

The same king has now opend his eyes. Earlier this week the sealhunters
lawyer received a public letter from the king were he appologised for his
own criticism of the Norwegian sealhunting. He also admited that his
criticism was based on sources (TV and newspapers - swedish?) which at
that time all seemed to agree about that fighting against the sealhunting 
was the most important issue at the environmental agenda.

...... Afterwards he realised that his statement were based on incorrect
sources.........

Have the swedish TV and newspapers been looking into their sources????


The moral is: "You do not have to be a king to change your mind, agree
               on, and understand that a controled seal- and whale
               hunting is good environmental work in practice."

You are all welcome to follow the kings example.


Svein-Ivar

-a whale a day,
 keeps the doctor away

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman)
Subject: Re: Childrend`s reading ability / was Re: What is Norden?
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
Distribution: soc
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:23:33 GMT

leisti@cc.helsinki.fi (Teemu Leisti) writes:
: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
: 
: >   (This was mentioned on the radio in connection with an international
: > investigation of the reading skills of 8 and 9 year old children
: > from 30 countries, in which the US did best, followed by Finland and
: > Sweden.)
: 
: Here they told us that Finnish kids did best!  Who is being lied to?

According to Dagens Nyheter (morning paper in Sweden) it was Finland who did
best.

--
Sven Wallman, S:t Larsg. 5, 753 11 Uppsala, Sweden, +46 1812 9237
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:53:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.171708.10870@tdb.uu.se>, t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman) writes:
>We've got them in Sweden.. Noone celebrates them though. Perhaps because
>most of the names are like "Hartvig" and "Beata".

Well, I for one always celebrate my "namnsdag". That could have 
something to do with the fact that it's also my birthday - December 21 
:-). And three days later is Christimas Eve. Do you think I was upset 
about this when I was younger? :-) Of course, it would be even worse to 
be a girl called Eva, born on Christmas Eve, since all three events then 
would coincide...

Tomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:40:53 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>I can't see anything wrong in people from outside Europe/USA moving to
>Scandinavia for economical reasons. After all, nobody react when people
>from Europe or USA ("whities") do !


    Exactly my opinion, the only trouble is that these "economical"
    refugees in order to stay have to invent a "political" reason
    to present to the immigration authorities. Thus they take resources
    (and eventually a place) away from real political refugees.

    It's far better IMHO to have a system were you have a quota
    for economical immigrants, thus separating them from real political
    refugees.

>In fact, the by far largest foreign group in Norway is danes and
>swedes, and nobody grumble about that.

    Because there's no cultural differences, and very little linguistic.

>But their skin is white.....

    Before you suggest racist motivations, you should distinguish
    between that, and the wish to preserve the "ethnicality" of Norway.
    Are you willing to let 4 millions Africans into Norway, thus
    completely change the demography of Norway ? If not, I won't
    suggest that you're a racist..
    
    
    
    Mats Winberg
    etxmow@tore.ericsson.se
    .
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
>| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
>| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
>| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Thingvellir
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:31:30 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <Bt601D.L7p@well.sf.ca.us> dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:
>
>I'm reading Njals Saga (Magnus Magnusson/Hermann Palsson translation) and
>wondering:  What kind of a landscape is it where the Althing happens?  Is it
>flat, hilly, rocky, green?  What conspicuous landmarks?

	Well the |xara (Ax River) falls in a waterfall over the cliffs on
the west (?) side, and flows along them into Thingvallavatn, a large lake
to the south (?, I think I'm getting the directions right, but not sure).
There are cliffs along the western part.  This is also where the
Mid-Atlantic ridge cuts across Iceland, so there is a good sized gorge at
the base of the falls that the river runs through, I guess about 30-50 feet
deep.  On there are slightly smaller cliffs for the east bank of the
gorge/river and from them the land slopes smoothly down to another fork of
the river to the east.  It's up on that rise where the Law Rock is, and the
people camped and assembled between the two forks of the river.   
	The two forks of the river join some hundred yards south near
Thingvallavatn.  It's a very impressive place - lots of grass and no trees.
Lots of black volcanic rock.

	I'm trying to describe this from memories of a visit to the site in
89, so I may have gotten some of it wrong, but I think that's mostly it.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and emplo
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:12:19 GMT

etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se  writes:
>euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se (John Dryselius TG/HB) writes:
>>>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>>>There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
>>>>"mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.

>50 years ago USA was richer than Sweden, when the Socialist Democrats
>took over. 

During the war indeed...

>Of course we can't give them all the credit for the economical growth 
>in Sweden between 1945 and ~1965 

We can't give socialism *any* credit for it. During these years they didn't
implement much of it. There was a kind of consensus called the Swedish
Model.

>USA today have had riots due to that large groups of people find their 
>situation hopeless, the same things have happened in GB this spring.

I think these are cultural things. Lots of immigrant groups have entered
the American society from the bottom, and climbed up. The latest were
Coreans. The N... never seem to get much richer. I haven't heard a
really good explanation, there are probably several coinciding factors.
The riots were, as I remember, about the *legal* system of USA.

>And besides there are strong indications that the present American 
>middle class is economically weaker than the previous generation - 
>for the first time ever in USA.

Also, the state/federal/government sector is larger than ever. There
is a lot of socialism in USA, too, you know.

>>Also another thing -- even with the non-monetary problems partial socialism
>>claims to solve, like unemployment, social conflicts, racial conflicts, 
>>the low interest/ability/ratio in "weak groups" to study at the university,
>>criminality, and even diseases, IT HAS FAILED.

>True, but also the pure liberal/capitalist solutions have F A I L E D.

Talk a while with my friend Virgil, and he'll tell you there are
grades in hell.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 06:40:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.190858.1@abo.fi>, jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes:
|> 
|> I don't think I'm forgetting that O:) I'm sure majority of the immigrants want
|> to do something as much the local people to start a better life here, but
|> unfortunately it's not a question of will - nobody simply wants them to work
|> for them. There are several reasons for this, a) these people can't speak
|> Finnish and sometimes not much even English so training them to the jobs is
|> hard, b) the immigrants are often poorly educated and you can't just find any
|> suitable jobs for them, c) the unemployment in Finland is growing all the time
|> and to each free post there are many Finnish applicants who usually fit better
|> to that particular job due to the better education they have had.
|> 
|> 	Jouni
--


That's right. But the problem is not the immigrants, it's the society
which don't want to employ even all of its native inhabitants. This is
basically a political/economical, not an immigration question!

In Norway there were no problems with jobs for immigrants - many
employers even stated they'd rather have workers from Pakistan than
from Norway - until the general economical crisis in Europe (and
Norway) started !


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: pjotr@ludd.luth.se (Peter Sj|str|m)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:21:20 GMT
Organization: Lule} H|gskolas datorf|rening ( Ludd )

In <1992Aug20.083155.11048@eua.ericsson.se> euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:

>I don't want to pay to walk the streets. I take support in a
>700-year-old tradition.

	I'd be more than glad to pay a fee for access to the Water
Festival so the management can make it even better. I believe in this
2-year-old tradition of Stockholm and don't mind paying SEK 50 for it.
Lot's of other street festivals (Sj|slaget, Lule}; Br{nnbollen, Ume})
charge SEK 150 a day or so.

	You get quite a bit more than 'walk the streets' too!

		/Peter
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: No cars in Oslo? (Was Re: Stockholm Water Festival)
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 05:56:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.215011.21258@aero.org> dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
>>
>>I can't see that there is anything unlawful or even strange about
>>temporarily (or even permanently) charging a fee for entrance to
>>an area that is publicly owned.  
>
>Well, they did that about a year ago to central Oslo.
>It costs you NKr 10 to come into the central city ... if you
>want to take a car with you.  :-)

When did they start that?

I find it a very good idea, especially for many of the older
European cities which have an old city part with narrow streets
etc. A criteria for the workability is of course that you can
park the car outside the zone and access to the zone from the
car parks with public transportation.

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:51:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.173027.10992@tdb.uu.se>, t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman) writes:
|> Let's take Somalia as an example. Helporganisations are trying to help the
|> starving people there, but they run into problems because of the chaotic state
|> in Somalia. Do you think the rich countries are ignoring the problems in 
|> Somalia because they can't get a profit out of it? 


I think you know perfectly well that there are more countries in the
world in which people are starving to death.


|> 	Could you please tell us more about this new fantastic economic 
|> system that gives everyone a job and that doesn't have to obey basic laws
|> of economy? 
|> 
|> --
|> Sven Wallman, S:t Larsg. 5, 753 11 Uppsala, Sweden, +46 1812 9237


Maybe later :-)

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic