HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Disinformation Agents at Work?
Keywords: UFO disinformation
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:48:57 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


	sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
	You and the other believers have done *far* more than any
	skeptic could ever hope to accomplish in scaring real
	scientists away from studying UFOs!

  This is not quite true.  Ridicule of UFO believers came originally
from the media, with help from the government (whose motives included
trying to avoid "noise" in the expected nuclear struggle with the
USSR, but may have included other motives.)  To a large extent, this
ridicule from the 'uninterested' media is still occurring, Phil Klass
and other published anti-UFO writers notwithstanding.

	You guys fall for the silliest hoax in the world in Gulf
	Breeze

... "we guys"?  My reading of recent UFO literature shows that the
only serious investigations of the Gulf Breeze photos came from
inside the UFO community (MUFON and CUFOS, in an occasionally unseemly
shouting match that masked serious investigation that has shown
scientific reasons why the photographs are probably faked.)  Laughing
the photos off is a decidedly unscientific reaction.  Open-minded 
investigation is (or should be) the hallmark of science, and indeed of
UFO-scepticism.

	insist that the farfetched and mutually-contradictory stories
	about "crashed saucers" at Roswell are absolute truth

... farfetched does not mean impossible.  Investigations, before they
complete, are often show contradictory things (resolving
contradictions is a large part of any investigation, I think you'll
agree.)  Your error is presuming that all that needs to be known about
Roswell is known.  I suggest you read some of the more recent books on
Roswell.  Contradictions exist in the 'official' story, too -- for
instance a weather balloon discovered earlier in the month (in Ohio)
was ignored by the government (Mr. Campbell, who discovered it, was
allowed to keep it - pictures of his daughter holding the balloon
appeared in newspapers around the country) versus the seven planes
used to transfer whatever-it-was from Roswell (to Fort Worth, Wright
Field, Washington DC, and Los Alamos) -- curious treatment for a
balloon, surely.  You may also want to read the Jesse Marcel
interviews in 1978.


... the difficulty in UFOlogy is that not everyone "in the field" is
working from the purest of motives.  People make stuff up, for reasons
of their own, and others repeat it (and so they become "urban
legends").  For instance, the tabloid newspapers make stuff up to sell
newspapers.  This does not imply that everything in the field is made
up.


   There is some evidence that parts of the government (AFOSI,
specifically -- making willing use of Bill Moore) engage in
disinformation against at least some UFOlogists (Paul Bennewitz,
specifically), for reasons that are not known (See Howard Blum's "Out
There" for details.)  (That Bennewitz was doing things AFOSI didn't
want him doing is clear, but what they were trying to keep secret
isn't, and may have an 'earthly' explaination.)

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Higher Sources
Cc: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 07:39:14 +0000

In article <pa6mchl.jeffp@netcom.com>, jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff Papineau) writes:

>I feel sorry for you young men, so quick to form your opions of reality
>in such short order... Little carbon copies all over the place.
>Well Prof. so and so sez...

Steady on...  I merely  *suggested*  that the effect could have been
produced by an  alternative method;  I didn't say it  actually *was*
I accept that there's more going on in this Universe than we're ever
likely to understand.  I wanted to know if conventional methods such
as stop-motion photography could be discounted in Dr Demonde's case,
that's all.  



Now, leaving that explosive subject to one side for the moment ...

>Actually, "higher sources" assure us that all matter does indeed have
>an intelligence of it's own; in its own way.

Who are these "higher sources" ?



>Jeff-

-Sean.
From: kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:04:42 GMT
Organization: Boeing

In article <85988@netnews.upenn.edu> jmv@grip.cis.upenn.edu (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.112650.25645@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Rickie.A.Slater@dartmouth.edu (Rickie A. Slater) writes:
>> >kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) writes:
>> 
>> >I doubt that any aliens or government people would have created such >circles. There is no reason for it.  
>> 
>> Try realizing that there is more that you don't know than there is that
>> you do know. Most reasons are beyond our comprehension.
>
>With that kind of remark, we won't go very far. So we should take the crop circles as complete
>mysteries (or equivalently as alien spaceships, as we cannot understand their true motives), and
>not wonder any further ? I wouln't say there's no reason for crop circles, but the same as
>kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com  says:
>
>
>> >Why land in the middle of crops, making a stange formation that will get
>  >people suspicious when you could easily land in some other place that would >leave no such "evidence."
>> 
>> If you had work to do in a place where no one could overpower or
>> influence you would you really care what kind of impression you made,
>> on the planet surface or on the inhabitants lives?
>>   
>
>YES, DEFINITLY YES. I think the "Prime Directive" argument of Star Trek could
>apply to aliens as well. Besides, if the aliens really didn't care, they would
>land randomly. Too bad they never land in center city. 
>
>
>JM.

I didna' say that. You are getting your "XXX XXX said" lines mixed up.
I'm the one challenging the "Har, Har, it was them dumb humans that
made the crop circles" group with the concept that there may be other
explanations...


Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
kuryakin@bcstec.boeing.com       |           
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time           
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.  












































-- 
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
kuryakin@bcstec.boeing.com       |           
AppleLink:  kuryakin             | It wastes your time           
r.pavek1@GENIE                   |          and annoys the droid.  
Xref: sparky alt.alien.visitors:5655 alt.politics.kibo:45
From: kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.politics.kibo
Subject: Re: Gary Stollman For President...
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:00:49 GMT
Organization: Between a rock and a type specimen sheet, Boston.

Gary Stollman wrote:
>kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>
>>Gary, if you'd like to help take back control from the government, I'm
>>running for president (see alt.politics.kibo.)  Would you like to be my
>>running mate?
>
>Thanks, but I am NOT sure people would have a very positive view of me...In

Well, heck, people don't have a positive view of me either.  In fact,
some would go so far as to say I'm a weenie.  Of course, I'm not just an
ordinary weenie.

>fact, we might need to run on an "Insanity" Platform, that is, the other guys
>are MORE insane than WE are...If you feel this is ok, let me know before I
>bring the present government to its knees...

Currently my camapign has no platform.  Or rather, my platform is that
politicians with platforms are bad.  I also plan to ban roman numerals,
and to shift our nation's economy towards the main national product
being bumper stickers saying how great I am.  Oh, and also, I will
declare that Japan does not exist.  After all, I'll be able to do that,
because I'll be President, the most powerful man in the world except for
Johnny Carson and Jack Nicholson.

I don't know how these ideas fit in with your personal philosophy.  If
you are too sane to join in my crusade to destroy the socioeconomic
framework of our culture and replace it with a giant amusement park run
by Kibo, or if you just think I am a major bozo, you can always run for 
President yourself.  (After all, you seem to have some support already.)  
However, this might lead to the two of us running against each other.  
If this happens, I promise you that I will concede gracefully if you win 
come election day.

Anyway, let me know if you'd like to be No. 2 on my ticket.  If you
agree that this country needs an enema, hop aboard.

							-- K.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: John Lear info from Matrix (long)
Cc: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:15:17 +0000

In article <gz7mrbk.jeffp@netcom.com>, jeffp@netcom.com (Jeff Papineau) writes:

>From some of the evidence lt. is apparent that this surgery is accomplished in
>most cases while the victim, animal or human is still alive.
>
>The various parts of the body are taken to various underground laboratories
>one of which is known to be near the small New Mexico town of Dulce.
>This jointly occupied (CIA-alien) facility has been described as enormous
>with huge tiled walls that 'go on forever'. Witnesses have reported huge
>vats filled with an amber liquid with parts of human bodies being stirred 
>inside.

Not just parts of humans:  The Web of Conspiracy,  posted last August
by Don Allen, goes further and says that on Level 6,  Nightmare Hall,
is to be found the Genetic Experimentation Lab.  I've managed dig out 
this portion which makes for quite fascinating reading :

---

         THE WEB OF CONSPIRACY:  (PART 3)..."NIGHTMARE HALL"

     "Covertly, this research has been going on for years at Dulce
Labs.  Level No. 6 is privately called "Nightmare Hall," it holds the
Genetic Labs.  Reports from workers who have seen bizarre
experimentation are as follows:
     "I have seen multi-legged `humans' that look like half
human/half-octopus.  Also Reptilian-humans, and furry creatures that
have hands like humans and cries like a baby; it mimics human
words...also huge mixtures of Lizard-humans in cages."  There are
fish, seals, birds and mice that can barely be considered those
species.  There are several cages (and vats) of Winged-humanoids,
grotesque bat-like creatures, but 3-1/2 to 7 feet tall.  Gargoyle-
like beings and Draco-Reptoids."

     "Level 7 is worse:  row after row of thousands of humans and
human-mixtures in cold storage.  Here too are embryo storage vats of
Humanoids, in various stages of development.

     "I frequently encountered humans in cages, usually dazed or
drugged, but sometimes they cried and begged for help.  We were told
they were hopelessly insane, and involved in high risk tests to cure
insanity.

     "We were told to never try to speak to them at all.  At the
beginning we believed that story.  Finally, in 1978, a small group of
workers discovered the truth.


---


-Sean.

warlock%spuddy@uknet.ac.uk | asm332@cix.compulink.co.uk
From: alexa@county.lmt.mn.org (Dave Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dulce Info Request
Date: 11 Aug 92 21:50:03 GMT
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN

RE: Matrix I and Matrix II

In article <1992Aug11.005407.14464@odin.corp.sgi.com>, rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes:
> 
> I did flip through them while I was there. Some interesting stuff,but there
> seems to be alot of regurgitated MJ 12 stuff,etc. One thing is for
> sure,somebody has alot os time to gather paper from all over the U.S. & the
> world. The way it is written seems to be reminiscent of Bill
> Cooper.......You make the call;->
> 

Actually, they were both written by Valdemar Valerian (not his real name), who
puts out the Leading Edge newsletter. The Matrix books seem to be a kind of
compliation of all of his newsletter stuff.

-- Alex --
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:46:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <3373@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <h90mqb-.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>Considering that you can't send proof on the net it seems rather silly
>>to demand it.
>Offer to send it and I'll relay my mailing address...  of course it's
>silly to assume you can squish that through the net.
>  
>>I could care less really, 
>Then I won't bother to reply.

But aren't I responding to a reply?  :^)
 
>Cheers, Rick
>
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.

Rich

payner@netcom.com
From: garys@netcom.com (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Gary Stollman..really?..
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:14:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

STONE@Zeus.unomaha.edu (Travis R. Stone) writes:

>Why, Gary, NOBODY is accusing you of being a "crazy artiste"
>OR a "Hollywierd" movie maker...Nobody at all.

>We're just saying that you're a raving looney who shouldn't
>be trusted with anything sharper than a stick of warm butter.

>T.R. Stone
>University of Nebraska-Omaha
>Where Everyone Thinks Gary Stollman is a Howling Nut-Case
*****
Really...Hey, when was the last time the Cornhuskers won the National
Championship or the Orange Bowl, eh??
-- 
Gary Stollman    Internet: garys@netcom.com     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: kevin@andorra.Berkeley.EDU (Kev)
Subject: Aliens that smoke???
Reply-To: kevin@andorra.Berkeley.EDU (Kev)
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:09:48 GMT


          This just heard on the radio coming in to work this morning;
            "The main reasons for alien visitations to earth
             is because the aliens are hooked on our tobacco products
             and that smoking is not allowed on inter-stellar
             spacecraft"
          Can anyone shed some more light on this matter?
          Thanks------
                 




*******************************************************************
No cool (s)cig yet  
*******************************************************************
From: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:17:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

I made a mistake in the previous material. Timothy Green Beckley (MR. UFO)
is the editor of UFO Universe Magazine.
John Winston.
From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ufo-skeptical Film/tv Documentaries ?
Date: 15 Aug 92 05:10:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO


 > The Finnish commercial TV has really outdone itself in sillines
 > recently,
 > by showing a "documentary" which abandoned all logic and source
 > critisism
 > for a blue-eyed acceptance of all possible claims of "UFOlogy"
 > (including
 > the all-pervading conspiracy, OOBEs, sexual exploits of aliens etc.)
 >
 > I am looking for references to *skeptical* film/tv documentaries which
 > the Finnish Skeptics could suggest to them for showing as a rational
 > "counterweight" to all this.

Although there is a huge lack of "credible" documentaries, I can recommend a 
special that was shown in the early 80s by HBO (Home Box Office), titled, 
UFOs:  What's Going On, and another that is titled, UFOs Are Real!  If you 
want further information, please email me at mcorbin@paranet.org.

 > I am aware of one NOVA episode about UFO's.  How good is it ?

Although I have not seen it, I have heard that it is not that good.

Mike

--  
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
From: gvb@TEFS1.acd.com (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: physical evidence
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:01:29 GMT

In article <BsvL27.1AJ@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>   Also remember that some "abduction victims" claim that it is a
>   repeated or regular occurence or that it's still happening to
>   them.  It would not be that hard to rig up their house to record
>   events in it.  Turn on a videotape loop every night before going
>   to bed.  Maybe prepare the ground outside to mark footprints.
>   Set up automatic video or camera equipment around the house 
>   to record people (beings, whatever) going in and out.  Et cetera.
>   Use a little imagination.
>
>
>---peter
>                                                                 
>   
> 

This is what gets me about this whole abduction thingy. I will restate the 
fact that I am middle ground on this. I believe that the abduction are
happening but don't know what is causing them. It just kills me though in
some of the non-hypnotically induced recollections of Kathy Davis
(the central figure in Budd Hopkins' book INTRUDERS) she was called every
wednesday by something, somebody or someone that would "gab" for quite some
time in some strange "tounge" and then hang up. This happened the entire
time she was carrying her first child, >27 times.
(Forgot to mention, the call would be made at 3:00 in the afternoon each time) 
A couple times she wasn't home and her mother would answer and hear it. 
One ofher friends heard it. This happened in the middle of a bunch of 
other claimed abduction incidents.

Now, pardon me, but if somebody calls me every week for 9 months on the same
day at the same time, the third of fourth time is gonna go on tape! Just 
drives me crazy to read that part of the book. I figure there are a couple
explanations for the lack of a recording:

1) Kathy just never really thought of it. Some people live life without
   a reaction to anything or anybody. 

2) Its a possibility "the aliens" programmed her not to record the stuff.
   According to INTRUDERS abductees are pretty much controlled by the 
   abductors.

3) It could all be a sham and never happened. Thats why recordings were never
   mentioned.


 One common thing I see is the "wet noodle" approach these abductees tend to
 have toward life and living. Could be the "aliens", if they exist, choose 
 these type of people so it is easier to control them. Sorry, I can't live
 like that. Could be too that all this abduction stuff is fake and the 
 "wet noodle" approach is an easy way to avoid substantiating the claim.

Gregg.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: gvb@TEFS1.acd.com (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:28:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.100452.26123@cco.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

[STUFF deleted]


>
>Now, obviously that aliens, if they exist, do not want us to know that they
>are here, right?  Or else they would just land on the White House lawn like
>in that moive (you know the one).  So why would an alien that is intelligent
>enough to create some means to travel about 4 light years at least land his
>craft in the middle of a corn field if he knew that it would leave behind
>traces?  And besides, we never see and landing gear imprints, do we?  All we
>see is a circle of crops that look like they have been smashed over by some
>guy with a 2X4.

Obviously you have missed something here. Crop circles are not necessarily
supposed landing sites for alien spacecraft, or claims to such, but are
something else. The properties of these circles resemble "crops that look like 
they have been smashed over bye some guy with a 2X4" only at a distance.
When examined further, there are more subtle and stranger properties. I 
suggest you do a little reading. The crops were not "smashed" in some cases
but like they were "bent and weaved" into a very complicated pattern.

>
>And now, let's assume that the government has some top secret craft that
>would create such a circle.  As above, the government wouldn't be dumb
>enough to leave behind such obvious traces.
>
>Now, we have documented cases in which exact such circles have been created 
>by hoaxsters.  Why the need for some supernatural explanation?  The "guys
>with plank" theory seems to work perfectly.  Until we see more evidence that
>indicates that this theory is not sufficient to explain the phenomenon, I 
>see no use to propose something fantastic.

The evidence indicates such. 

>My mind is closed you say?  No, I admit that there is a very very remote
>possibility that there are very dumb aliens out there.  I suppose it could
>be like the nutty professor who concots the GUT but then locks his keys in his
>car.  I sincerely doubt though that aliens would overlook this footprint.
>Show be an alien creating a crop circle, and I will believe that aliens 
>create them.
>
>keith
>

And so will I. Myself, I am not sure they are any sort of landing spot. 
One nice thing about life: Stay tuned for more information doesn't apply.
If they figure out what is causing them, I am sure we will hear. They 
cannot, however, be passed off as "2X4 ROPE" circles. At least most
of them cant. As with all weird happenings, some are hoaxes, some are
explainables and some are not explainable.

Gregg.
 

Xref: sparky alt.alien.visitors:5592 alt.conspiracy:9935 alt.activism:14691 sci.skeptic:14191 misc.headlines:5545
From: rj@incam.new-orleans.la.us (Ray Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.po
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:34:57 CDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Camelot BBS, New Orleans, LA

> In article <1992Aug10.130150.1431@etek.chalmers.se> lindq@etek.chalmers.se (J
 
>>So what I meant was this:
>>A person isn't a criminal until he commits a crime.  If he doesn't get
>>an opportunity,  he...can't be a criminal.  Opportunity is ONE of the
>>neccessary things when turning criminal, not the only.
 
It is true that a criminal looks for the easiest opportunity, but if one
thing is not opportune, he will look for another.  That is an agrument
in favor of gun ownership, not against it.  If a criminal is not concern-
ed about being blown away by the victim, he is more likely to commit the
crime.  Consider, you are thinking about robbing the elderly couple down
the road.  You know they are old and infirm.  You decide to commit the
crime because you know they can't do anything to defend themselves.  On
the other hand, consider the same scenario except that the "old-infirm
couple" may have a double-barreled shotgun, a .38 or some other gun
waiting for you when you try.  Which scenario would you be more likely
to perpetrate the crime in?

******************************************************************************
"Camelot" BBS		rj@incam.new-orleans.la.us
PRIVATE SYSTEM		
Fidonet address		ray.jones@p38.f17.n396.z1.fidonet.org
VOICE #			504-436-1826
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors