From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 02:45:22 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

isaak@aurora.com (Mark Isaak) writes:

> >What is consciousness?

> Before we answer this, it might help if you first answer a couple other
> questions.  Namely:  What purpose will be served by having a definition?
> And, Why are you dissatisfied with standard dictionary definitions?

Well, consciousness is a real phenomenon, is it not? We know we are
conscious, or self-aware. So consciousness exists, it is something. Now,
the program of science is to identify and quantify all phenomena and all
relations between phenomena. Right? So consciousness is a phenomenon. So
science should identify, quantify it and delineate all the relations
between consciousness and other phenomena. Or, if it is not
quantifiable, or not identifiable, then science should say why not; and
in doing so, science will have to define it.

Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary defines consciousness as
follows: (first two definitions given here)

1a: the quality or state of being aware esp. of something within
oneself.

1b: the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state or
fact.

Definition 1b is circular, using the word "conscious" to define
consciousness. Definition 1a uses the term "something within oneself" to
denote the object of consciousness.  What is this "something"? What is
this "oneself" and how can "something" be "within oneself"?  Finally,
although the definition names the object of consciousness, what is it
that IS conscious. Would a rigorous mechanistic science accept such a
definition?

Granted that consciousness is some kind of "state" belonging to the
genus "awareness", we then ask what is awareness? And so on. The point
is that here is a real phenomenon that everyone has direct experience of
but which is treated as if nonexistent by modern science.

> Seriously, death isn't such a great mystery as you make it out to be.  Heart
> and lung function rely on a complicated arrangement of neutrons in the brain
> (among other things).  All cells, including said neutrons, require heart
> and lung to circulate blood to supply oxygen and nutrients.  When brain
> function degrades past a certain point, heart or lungs falter, causing
> oxygenation of the brain to falter, making heart and lungs fare even
> worse, etc., causing a catastrophic failure of the entire system.

We don't think that the death of the body is a mystery. We agree that
certain symptoms are common to most dead bodies, at least after a
certain time. Our question was not really about death, but about
consciousness. In particular, we would like to know what science says
about the fate of consciousness at the time of death and afterwards. And
in order to say anything about this, science must have a definition of
consciousness.

It is a fact that if we are talking one minute to a living person and
the next minute that person dies, we will know intuitively that
there is something missing. We immediately think "he is gone". Who is
"he"? The body is still there, but the person is gone. The self that
was the object of awareness is gone. What was this self? Was it the
beating of the heart. Was it the oxygen in the brain? Was it some
combination of material elements? No, of course not.

Evidently, consciousness is something very hard to understand. Therefore
it is truly a mystery; so much of a mystery in fact that science does
not "officially" acknowledge its existence.

> >We would answer by saying that the soul, or the consciousness, has
> >departed, and therefore the organism is no longer alive.
> 
> How can you say this if you don't know what consciousness is?

We can say what consciousness is, but first we would like your opinion:
what is it, what happens to it after death, and why?

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa


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