From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Must Pro-Life Be Inconsistent and Misogynistic?
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:03:31 GMT

In article <3zsnlfl.ray@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>Note followup group.

I don't read talk.abortion; if this is going too far from inequity,
then I'll be happy to take it offline.


>beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes ...
>>In article <x4rnxb=.ray@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>>>beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes ...
>>>>Perhaps they think that the added burden of living with the fact
>>>>that the child was a result of a degrading and violent experience
>>>>would be an extremly cruel circumstance, and they are willing to
>>>>defer to the well-being of the mother.
>>>
>>>Ah, so then, if your death would prevent me from suffering equally
>>>cruel circumstances, then it would be alright for me to kill you?
>>>
>>>And if the answer is no, is it because you're a person and a fetus isn't?
>>
>>First, nothing was said about a right to kill.  "Merely" to remove the
>>fetus intact would suffice.  Its right to support would be overridden
>>under certain circumstances, not its right to life.  It would pursue
>>life as best it could, which wouldn't be very well.
>
>So then, the fetus _isn't_ a person.  I know of no other case where 
>killing a person is allowed because of an action somebody else did.

How does this imply the fetus isn't a person?  I'm not even arguing
whether a fetus is a person or not.  I'm saying it's not inconsistent.


>The difference between your view and mine is that I think the mother
                        ^^^^
>should decide whether to continue the pregnancy, and you think you 
>should decide.

Please note, this discussion was not one based on my views.
I am claiming that pro-life is not necessarily inconsistent
or misogynistic (an inequity question), as you have implied.

In any case, one might say you think you are best qualified to decide
who should make the decision.


>>of sex with women, and I reject unequal treatment under the law.
>
>So then, if she dies during pregnancy then you die?

No, why should I?  Explain how that's equal.  Did the +law+ cause her
to die?  No.  If I die of a heart attack earning the money to furnish
the child's room, or to pay court-ordered birth and support expenses,
should she die?  I hope not.

If you support the legal principle that biology creates inequities,
then you ought to admit that her unequal "right" to decide abortion also
carries an unequal "liability."

If what you're attacking is a position that I haven't laid claim to,
namely that abortion should be illegal, then consider the following:
An anti-abortion law might prevent her from taking action to reduce
her risk of death from pregnancy, but this is not contradictory to
any legal principle, presuming one holds that she made her decision
to undertake risk when she decided to have sex.

If you want to make off-the-cuff comparisons of men v. women,
you must also take into account the stresses men have (increasing risk
of heart attack, eg.) and the risks that men take to support their
families.  I don't find these things easily measurable and I don't
find it productive to compare them, other than to say,
pregnancy creates stresses and risks for men and women.


>As I said above, you apparently think that you are qualified to balance
>the rights of the fetus against those of the mother.  I don't, generally.
>I think the mother is best qualified to make that decision.

We go from your comment, "Daddy knows best," to "Mommy knows best?"

First, see my comment above.  Second, your statement is appealing;
it's like saying, I believe a parent is the best person qualified
to make a decision for a child.  Do you accept the purported Chinese 
custom of putting girl babies in the snow to freeze?  (We aren't
debating child-ness of fetuses; we are discussing representation
and decisions re entities with rights.)

Let me repeat: I am not arguing over who should make the decision;
I am pointing out, strongly, that I find nothing inconsistent
with thinking that this appealing attitude is not what it seems.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: talk.abortion