From: gar@cltr.uq.oz.au (Greg Restall)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Re: Hell & Causation.
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:31:24 GMT
	<ricko.712914366@ee.uts.EDU.AU> <9221810.29240@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
	<9221812.3877@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> <9221913.8832@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> 
	<1992Aug6.063320.20121@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> <9222414.22563@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
Distribution: aus
Organization: Centre for Language Teaching and Research, Uni of Queensland, AUSTRALIA.

fraser@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fraser Wilson) writes (replying to me):

*>The argument is valid but not sound.  Plausible second connection
*>between Hell and Earth (granting Hell's existence).  God knows
*>about Hell, and because of it, God acts with regard to us in
*>particular ways that he wouldn't otherwise.  (Namely, he tells
*>us about it.)  Hence, there is a connection.  It is one we may
*>not acknowledge, but that alone isn't enough to ensure that 
*>it's not there.  (I may not believe in America, but the things
*>people tell me about it still effects me despite this.  And 
*>they wouldn't be telling me about America if it didn't exist,
*>so this is a causal connection between America and me.)
*
*I guess it comes down once again to the question of whether you
*believe what God tells us, and whether you believe he is there
*telling us in the first place.  I'm not sure that you can make
*the analogy between Hell and America stick:  people will tell
*you about their God/Religion even if they happen to be wrong.
*In terms of your analogy, in fact people *would* tell me about
*America.  Perhaps they were brought up to believe that this
*country exists, even though they themselves have never seen it.

Fair 'nuff.  I'll agree with that, modulo a few doubts
about what would happen if God/Heaven/Hell doesn't exist.

You will no doubt understand that as someone who believes
that God is responsible for the existence of this space-time
manifold, I wouldn't say that if God didn't exist, people
would still be talking about God.  I find that a bit far
fetched, because from my perspective, if God didn't exist,
neither would we.  (This a consequence of traditional theism.)

But I understand where you're coming from nonetheless.

And hopefully, you understand where I'm coming from now;
when I say that there is some kind of connection between
Hell and here.  You won't agree with me, but I suppose you
can understand the perspective.

In this situation (with more fundamental things disagreed
upon) we can hope for no better.  

*Fraser.

Greg

P.S.  I heard this in conversation a few days ago.  It's 
a new proof of the existence of God.  See what you think:

1.  A statement p is true if and only if, were God to exist, 
    God would believe that statement.

   (This follows from the omnisicence of God, or rather, the 
    fact that were God to exist, God would be omniscient.)

2.  Therefore, the statement: `God exists' is true, if and only 
    if, were God to exist, God would believe that God exists.

   (Taking `God exists' for p.)

3.  Clearly, were God to exist, God would believe that God exists.

   (God is omniscient, after all: or rather, were God to exist,
    God would be omnisicent.)

4.  So from 2. and 3., the statement `God exists' is true.

5.  Therefore, God exists.


OK, I admit that it's a bad argument.  At least 
its conclusion is true.


--
------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Greg Restall      | Philosophy Department, University of Queensland. 
gar@cltr.uq.oz.au | Queensland, 4072.  Australia.
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                       The word `dog' does not bite.   William James