From: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: The point... why turn Gavin African?
Reply-To: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:17:03 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.135902.15247@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>, gavan@UCT_elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
>mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>Seems to be saying that we need equality, health wealth and
>happiness here. Noble sentiments, but no indication of any
>route to this, beyond massive govt. spending on education
>and other things. It isn't hard to see that
Gavan, you do not want to tell me that we South Africans  are going to
take the world economic contest with our dusty classrooms in our black
schools... Are you saying that it is okay to continue the format of
speding highly on white children and less on black students? Are you sure
that South African can praise itself in ten years for having decided not to
invest in the educational infrustructure...

One way of achieving effective investment maybe to shift some of our resources
arround creating a singly educational structure...and cutting down on the
multiple ministries of education... While I am sure you do know that wealth
is a result of investment defined loosely... the idea of investing more
in education seem to be uncomfortable to you... Haven't we renageted our
responsibility in creating a nation condusive to aquisition of human capital
like you have Gavan by spending less for black... The problem is Gav by
not creating more avaenues for the creation of such resources.. we are
continuing to breed the same thing that you are trying to avoid people
without stakes in the nations, angry and bitter... with nothing to loos
but all to gain .... 

Sometime I wonder if Gavan is one person... in the way that his priciple
seem to shift from one argument to another... The idea of equity seem
acceptable and not "noble" when dealing with violence and political 
right for the minority. But oh noo! not in education or skill attainment.
>
>1. There isn't any money for that. We already spend at least
>the world average of GDP on education, and cannot realistically
>spend more.
The world GNP did not have Apartheid an a war with itself.. The 
world did not create expensive ventures in trying to keep some people
out while espousing to the world of free enterprise.  And by the way the
world you are talking about do not have the types of shortages in manpower
oops! human resourse that we do. The same demand that our economy has.
and the world does not have as high a FUNCTIONAL illeterancy that we do.
The world Gavan, does not have to content with one doctor per 20,ooo
as we do ... and the lowest level of enginners that we do... THe world
Gavin has unemployed enbgineers and we do not... and believe it is costly
for us to compete in the world market for those skilled mapower.. simply
by our geographic location... In this world that Gaving is comparing us
with ... they did not keep people in Jobs because they were white or
prevent peolple from competing with Gavan tredoux for scares positions in
slot in Mathematics and philosophy by creating color bar laws... no
they have done away with that (at least the successful one). We have a
unique situation in SA (that to the NP) we need to deal with our 
problems.. 
 
>
>2. Social and political stability is a prerequisite for black
>education to get back on track. As recently as 1980 we had a
>70% pass rate (or equivalent) at matric level. 
Gavan check your statistics.. in 1980 you had one of the lowest pass rate
for africans... Oh! I see Gavan you were looking at the wrong columns
that might be a column for coloureds (I think).  Gavan the pass rates
for african began their drop in the early 1960's when the per capita
expenditure was dropped.. It use to be that the pass rates fro africans
was higher than that of coloured (but by the 1970's it took a dive...
Coinsidental that was the time of Afrikaans in die klaas kamer... and
if my memory serves me well coloured overtook african arround that time..
I am not insinuating that coloured communities should have any less rates
but simply stating the fact her Gav.  

Political
>distrubances have all but destroyed the system.
Yes they have... Gavin that is the system that had said that Mokaba
cannot erespective of his ability dream and get to be an engineer.. that
he would learn in Afrikaan's a language conduce to science only when
used by native speakers.  The system that prescribed books that try to
foster bigotry and ethnic rivalry.. "you may not rember the expression
"Al die Basotho is honde" statement in the book prescribed in 1977.

It is the sytem that taught education freedom at primary school and froze
out high aspirant. That system need to go.. Yes you would understand if
you were "the black Gavan". You would know that to give professors 
tolerance fee as inducement to teach in black schools while they anyway
would be without job is bad policy.. That Enginnering and mathematics...
biology and Physics are not holly ground...
Well Gavin that system gave blakc parent the burden of educating the children
of the futer while stifling income levels at the work place.. It gave you
free education while some of us had to drop out of school to earn more money
to return while white Gavan was receiving all the benefits... Free books
are there for black and get this.... the rate of turn over from presciption
books in schools is slower... stationary provided is of very poor quality.
May Gavan, you have never talked to a young african student to undesrtand
what it is that  he/she wants.. simply equal education is that too much
to asks when taxation is non racial and equitable... 

 The Institute
>of Race Relations has an interesting catalogue of disruptions
>at black schools since 1990, boycotts, burnings stonings
>and assaults on teachers, and demands like "pass one pass all".

The school require much more than a catalogue of boycotts... By resting 
changes in the early sixties South Africa has set itself on a roller
coster of student empowement and militancy. Get this Gavan the african 
student of today demands his right... and we all of us have lost
some of control. 
>I'll post these sometime. Current matric pass rate is below
>40%. Interestingly enough, thr *rural* pass rates are *way*
>above the national, and the worst cases are in places like
>Soweto.
Gavan, Have you ever visited the so called rural school's ... have you 
ever faced mud floors and broken desks... places were communication is zero
and where the newspaper come once a week. Have you ever see the plight of
a rural teacher who by the way was eduicated with me in dear old
Grond boonkies kraaal, "'n plek waar die poer poer die pootjie" Their 
level and effor has been destroyed by the continued lack of resources.
Agreably the rural areas are more stable... but not guite... we have 
not done anything to improve our productivity in those areas because
SA relegated them to being in Homeland and yet 65% of SA manpower is 
rooted in those areas and abou the same percentage of students are in those
areas.. Gavan, in my research study, (comming soon) I literally spent week
in the schools you call rural. By you first point they will not have any
finding increased because we are way above world avarage...GNP/GDP..
blablabla.. 

In the middle eighties some fellow called Vermaak was conducting boring
studies in homelkand areas going with the "Educational wastage in .....
fill in a homeland of your choice. In it he insunuate that childred 
repeating classes is a waste to the government and that they should be
let to go into the labor force and be productive... (12 year old beinbg
productive.) Following his recommendation  a new policy was instituted in
which students were to be condoned if they failed... welcome to the 
genesis of pass one pass all.. pass them all and fail them at matric...
there the policy was not in effect..
hello! hello! anybody there....?

 There is no indication that this instability would
>vanish under a non racial govt. It may in fact increase.


Any ideas about what causes this... any posible solution besides
detention with trials or kicking them out os school.

>
>3. Education doesn't guarantee economic success, nor does it 
>necessarily remove poverty and relative deprivation.
Yes Gavan  if we define education narrowly as the aquisition of 
skills not certificates... teacher skill improvement and not teacher
qualification improvement that we are seeing... Frankly I advocate for
broad range of human resource training... not only education...we
know that education for most balck meant BA simply because technical jobs
in Verwoerd words was not for them. This time we will do it right...
we will encourage and finance the creation of high tech /low tech and 
other fields... You may not want to but I assume we can be the next
Korea.. or Japan.. yes we can if we set our goals right gavan..
For example with all due apology for being personal you for example
may need to get some more skills that are more applied in someway..
you know the expression Philosophy is not a bread a butter couse...
we do need a few people in you field and not as many we have..
contrary to one of your previous posting ... "we could do with some
retired professors to taech calculus and introduction to biofeedback
mechnisms in th technicons and the rural high school that you so praised
for the 40% pass rate (rember that for white is 97-99%). We need to
demsitify mathematics and science... architecture should not be a rare
species neither should black medical researchers.

>4. Extremely high levels of inequality will be a permanent fixture
>in this society, regardless of govt. policy. Whites have always
>had a head start, since colonial conquest, and have overwhelming
>advantages in superior international contacts, generations of
>superior education, accumulated wealth locally and internationally,
>and incontestable domination of the upper reaches of the economy.
THey used those advantages in the 1924 gentlement's agreement to
stiffle the competition and prevented black from getting there..
THis is not a given "Dr" it is a variable over time and could have been
reversed by now ... I can tell you right now Dr Gavan ...that the open
migration of black south african and the ensuing diffusion of information
would have gradual neutralized that.  As those that are on the for front..

>This would have been the case with or without apartheid.
>(THis will lead us nowhere we will end up with a did-- did not ... did so
childish debate. I promise that race alone dose not guarantee wealth or 
world wide contact.. By virtue of being white does not make you to have 
more contact than I do does it... but apartheid had ensure you a good
place to learn .. away from the competition... and so did your parents
... dont you remember the plight of the poor whites in the 1930... I am
sure that a lot of balck would have suppased some of them... by now..
(got a little personal here.. hope you understand)

>5. South Africa is likely to remain relatively poor, and in the face
>of burgeoning population growth, with a shrinking economic base relative
>to that population. 
A whole new issue ,.... population explosion. Boom... the black cloud
swallows you!!!


> 
>Gavan Tredoux
>Dept Math / Dept Philosophy
>UCT

"Ek is net soos 'n ou os wat nie meer die ploeg kan trek nie" J B Voster.
"the rubicon" you know who.
Ek sal noit nie die afrikaner volk uitverkoop nie- De klerk.

Madimetja Mokaba
"not you father's olds mobile"