From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Anti-AR movie goers - Please read
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:26:08 GMT

In <Bxtt0u.Mzt@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>From article <viking.721893385@vincent1.iastate.edu>, by viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson):
>ds> My own theories are based upon discussions with those who
>ds> were there, both from Vietnamese nationals who managed to escape
>ds> and soldiers ranging from motor pool specialists to snipers shooting
>ds> Chinese advisors in Laos and Cambodia.  These guys don't write many
>ds> books, and certainly don't call themselves historians.

>Given your prior training and temperament, I'd recommend Neil 
>Sheehan's biography of John Paul Vann, one of the first "advisors"
>to arrive in Vietnam and one of the last to go home in a box.

	Indeed an excellent book.  It makes me wonder a bit how he
went home in a box and yet the biographer was able to make all those
astute claims, but nevertheless sheds quite a bit of light on the
conflict.  However, it is not relevant to the discussion, is it?

>rl> 1) divorce was banned;
>rl> 2) the religious practices of several sects were banned; and
>rl> 3) the use of contraceptives was declared a crime, and punishable
>rl>    by five years in prison.

>ds> Take careful note here, Russell.  You will find many
>ds> similarities to current events in the USA.  

>Oh really.  Where is divorce banned?  What religious sects are banned?
>Where is the use of contraceptives punishable by five years in prison?

	I said "similarities," Russ, not "exactly the same."  An important
difference you seem to have overlooked for some reason.  To wit, there
are laws against polygamy despite this being former Mormon religous
beliefs; there are laws against drug use, which Indians (North American
variety) are upset with because it precludes peyote usage in religous
doctrines that pre-date our settlement of the USA; you'll note a fair
disrespect of the current government and some churches due to the
abortion debacle; burial laws prevent me from being placed on a longship
and set afire while adrift, not to mention buyring Uncle Ned on the
back 40 without a proper coffin; homosexual couples cannot be married in
many states, despite being just as much a couple as heterosexuals; how
about Federal alcohol laws making it necessary for all Christian religions
to serve grape juice instead of actual wine during the sacraments?  I
admit this last is one few are in arms about, but it is a case of the
government outlawing a religous practice that is not only harmless but
quite a fundamental part of the service.

	Get the picture?

>ds> Care to join me in a
>ds> popular revolution, or do you think that perhaps we would not only
>ds> be the minority, but also that these privlidges aren't worth the
>ds> bloodshed of a revolution and may be taken care of via other means?

>Uh, huh.  Aren't you the guy who's fond of shooting his mouth off about
>his freedom to own firearms?  Tell us again how you'd resist "illegal" 
>laws banning firearms. 

	As I stated before, I would first resist through the courts,
but finally though armed resistance.  I consider it a basic right worth
fighting for, but this doesn't mean killing others is my first choice
of resisting.  Like many "assault weapon" owners in California, I'd
simply disobey the law in most cases.  Consider it passive resistance.

>rl> You're unfamiliar with the facts, Dan.  
>ds> And I suppose you're going to educate me?  On which war, Russ?

>Do your homework, Dan.  It's obvious that you don't know much about
>Vietnam, yet for some strange reason, you consider yourself qualified
>to shoot your mouth off about the "traitors" who opposed american
>involvement.

	The fit the definition of "traitor" as given in the United
States Constitution.  Do you have another one I should use instead,
or will you continue to say that it's not a duck even though it
walks, talks, quacks, and meets the definition of a duck?

	Where did you get your information, Russ?  Were you there, did
you talk to anybody who was there?  In what capacity?  Or do you get
your information from books on the shelf at the 7-11?  I'll give you
a free hint: the real information isn't generally published, and the
dirt on most instances is told over a few beers at the pub or during
a boring watch, not over a microphone at the newspaper office.  You
made reference to my prior service.  Understand that sea stories are
one thing I know how to distinguish, and also understand that you will
not hear from the popular media just what those servicemen went through,
nor can their experiences be described in print to its full impact.  If
you want the true impact, listen to a SeAL talk about his remorse at
blowing up an entire village and knowing there were five civilians in
there.  That there were 500 NVA regulars there too didn't seem to
make him feel much better, but that was his job and he did it.  Talk
to a Force Recon Marine working for MAC-SOG and hear him tell about
killing a Chinese advisor in Laos and how he saw the man die in
intimate detail and is still sorry.  Talk to an Army sargeant who set
his own Lt. on fire so he wouldn't get any more men killed through
incompetence.  Talk to a troop who killed the Vietnamese teenager
shooting his buddy, despite the fact that she wore a dress and was
barely into puberty.  Talk to the other troop who came upon a villiage
that had the headman hanging from a post, his testicles in his mouth
and his guts buzzing with flies, and the locals quite unwilling to even
talk to the US or ARVN troops for fear of the same retaliation.

	War is hell, Russ.  I suspect even you know that.  Even in
peacetime the maintainence of the military results in death.  Ever
see what a 1200psi steam leak from a class "D" boiler will do to
somebody?  I'll give you a quick summary: it cuts them in half.
Civilians don't worry about that while driving their cars or making
political statements.  You seem to think resisting a war is a
valiant thing.  Let's take Clinton vs. Bush, for example.  Bush was
a Navy pilot on a carrier.  Clinton dodged the draft.  Bush was
making carrier landings while Clinton walked about Oxford.  Ever
see, or even partake in a carrier landing?  I have.  I reached the
point of maximum pucker, and I wasn't even the pilot!

	Let me describe a carrier landing.  Place a stamp face-down on
your living room floor.  Step back 15 feet.  Now, dive forward and, as
you hit the floor, lick the stamp with your tongue.  If you can do this,
you can probably do a carrier landing.  If you can't, soak yourself in
gasoline, ride a motorcycle up to 120mph, ignite yourself, and jump
off.  This should simulate screwing up a carrier landing.  Patriotism?
No, it isn't just that.  It's valor, duty, honor, courage, and a host
of other words many don't seem to appreciate.  I agree, it often takes
more guts to speak out against something than to just go with the flow
and participate; when that participation means getting shot at, the
valor factor begins looking doubtful.

	Read your books, Russ.  They seem to be the utmost in
validity to you.  They aren't to me.  I prefer first-hand
experiences.  If I write a book, will you take my recounts more
valid?  Somehow I think not.  Meanwhile, note that we still have
Marines in eastern Asia shooting opium growers.  Did you ever
hear about that in a book?  I heard about it in my living room
just a few months ago.  Who do you believe?  I'll believe the
grizzled Marine near tears in my living room, thank you very
much.  I'll also believe the man with the 7.62mm bullet holes in
his abdomen who was a neighbor.  Writers of this stuff, sitting
pretty in their ivory towers similar to mine, get little credit.
Those who were there tend to have a more accurate perspective
of both the popular and the military view of the area.

	I trust we can get back to animal rights issues now?  You
seem to have lost a great deal of credibility in this issue, hence
we might as well get back on the original topic.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >