From: quadrun@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason G Velasco)
Subject: Re: INFFINITI vs BMW
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 12:05:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.201728.14309@ctp.com> bpita@ctp.com (Bob Pitas) writes:
>
(someone argues with Bob...  [Michael Chaffee] )
>>                         The BMW's aim is not to out-accelerate everything 
>>else on the road; their aim is to build a car that is high-quality, 
>>satisfying, and safe.  The overall "feel" of the cars is second-to-none; the 
>>feel of the steering matches that of the brakes and other controls; the 
>>suspension acts consistently and predictably in all circumstances; to use a 
>>cliche the car is in harmony.  If the BMW is a mediocre, overpriced car, 
>>why are BMW owners so loyal?  By loyal I don't mean they tell all their 
>>friends what a nice car they have; I mean they go back and BUY ANOTHER BMW.  
>>It happens all the time.  You'd be surprised how many former
>>BMW owners that now have Lexinfinitis are planning to go back to BMW or already
>>have.  BMW has been successful in this country for almost thirty years building
>>cars for people who don't mind paying extra for a combination of ride,
>>handling, acceleration, top speed, efficiency, and comfort unequalled by any 
>>other automaker.  
>
>That was my point!  They *don't* have good acceleration, handling, and top
>speed for the price.  You can get much better performance from a number of
>cars, and for less money!  You won't be able to say "I own a Bimmer", but
>you'll have a car with the same (or in the case of the Q45 better) combination
>of the characteristics you listed above for less money.
>

Bob, you totally missed the other guy's point!  And BMW's for that matter;

>>                     Note I say "combination."  The BMW's seldom excel in one 
>>area; this would entail compromising another.  Instead, the cars are more than
>>adequate in all areas.  For some reason, it seems like the people who slam BMW
>>are always people who don't own one, have never (or hardly) driven one, and
>>have no idea what they're about.  And as an aside, if your idea of luxury is a
>>Cadillac, I really feel bad for you.  You haven't lived.
>
>I'd put an Allante with the Northstar engine against a MB 3 or 4 series car
>anyday.  You sound like you haven't checked out the domestic luxury offerings
>for a while...

Sure, domestic offerings are getting better.   But in no way are they in
the same league as MB & BMW.  Perhaps this is apples vs. oranges or hamburger
vs. filet mignon.  In any case, the latest Autoweek has an article on an
800,000 mile 1983 Mercedes...  MB builds 'em right.

Okay, so they also have an article on the Achieva with 100,000 miles.  Big
deal!  That's not really remarkable for a modern car.  There are many happy
Volvo owners with early 80's Volvos with 200,000+ miles.  It's pretty sad that
Olds is bragging about 100k miles on a car that was driven pretty easily,
living a relatively low stress life.  

HAH!  Oldsmobile, the power of intelligent engineering!  Right down to those
STUPID CARJACK SEATBELTS.  (My friends & I joke about this because of the
high incidence of carjacking in our area, Baltimore/Washington...)

Imagine, you're sitting at a light, a carjacker yanks open your door,
pulls you out, gets in, and shuts the door!   ON TOP OF THAT, he's already
buckled in, safe and sound!

They should shoot the idiot who anchored the seatbelts in the door.
Some poor cop already died when his Caprice flipped, his door opened, he
fell out, and his car rolled on top of him.

Sorry for such a long tangent; GM should really eliminate this division.
Buick offers "luxury", Pontiac offers "performance"....  Olds is pointless.

>>>What do you consider fun?  Thinking to yourself "I wish I had a car
>>>with half the performance of a Q"?
>>
>>Actually, my idea of "fun" is a car I don't have to worry about driving vigor-
>>ously.  I would be terrified to try a four-wheel drift in a Q45; the "mediocre"
>>735i does them handily.  An aside:  Another thing I consider "fun" is ap-
>>proaching a corner, double-clutching down into second, and powering through
>>the corner, not having to worry if the car is going to decide that now is the
>>time for a gearchange.  
>
>You know those little numbers on the automatic transmission gear selector?
>Believe it or not, they allow you to keep the car in a gear right until
>the car overrides your selection because it may cause engine damage.  Since
>the Q45 does not get it's maximum performance right at redline, you just
>weren't driving it right.  I felt much more in control in the Q than in 
>the 735.
>

Bob, I suspect you'll never understand.  

>>                        Obviously your idea of "fun" IS in fact just going
>>really fast.  I'm so sorry.

>
>Don't be sorry, just get outa the way!
>

Suspicions confirmed.

>>>>
>>>Silence is achieved by building the car to extremely tight tolerances,
>>>including engineering the motor to make as little vibrational noise as
>>>possible.  Also the suspension can be engineered to reduce noise without
>>>isolating the driver from road feel.  That's the beauty of the Q, it's
>>>built to such close tolerances, yet with so much HP and Torque, that
>>>it's one of the funnest cars to drive anywhere.

Funnest?  Gee, okay, whatever you say.  Extremely tight tolerances... sounds
like you've been buying too much advertising/salesman hype.

>>>The silence is not created by insulating the driver from all noise, it's
>>>silent because the car doesn't make noise in the first place.  Maybe BMW
>>>could take a lesson or two from Nissan on build quality.
>>
>>I doubt that.  All the Q45's I have seen only have that famous Japanese build
>>quality in the engine and chassis.  It's very difficult to have fun driving a
>>car when all the interior parts don't even fit together straight, not to
>>mention the interior panels just scream "Made in K-Mart."  Am I to understand
>>that you don't WANT to hear the engine?
>
>There was nothing at all wrong with the interior of either the Q or the 735
>that I drove.  And the Q did not look 'plasticy' at all.  
>Also, I don't think that the engine noise should 'intrude' on the occupants,
>it should be available if you want to sample it, nothing more.
>

And that's why you have such a loud car.   The Q45 is "fall asleep" quiet.
Strange combo.  They try to mix aspects of German luxury sedans with those
of American luxobarges.  Yuck.  

>>
>>I won't even bring up the issue of build quality.  I think we should wait about
>>twenty years and see if the Lexinfinitis even come close.  My 1969 BMW with
>>220,000 miles is still solid as a rock, still starts every morning, and is
>>still fun to drive.  I will be somewhat surprised if the Lexus and Infiniti
>>can do as well.
>
>
>
>>-- 
>>Michael T. Chaffee        |****COLORADO BOYCOTTER******|  ______    
>>mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu | Professional Slapthologist |  \    /     HATE
>>Member, Universal Life Church, Sect of Loons           |   \  /  can never be
>>Annoyance Theatre Platinum Member |     Evil Genius    |    \/  a FAMILY VALUE
>
>Gee, and my upstairs neighbor just retired from his job as a diplomat 
>stationed in Germany. His kids visited last weekend.  For some reason,
>they both drove early 2002s.  They were both rusted (in the same places,
>suggesting poor build quality) pieces of junk that rattled alot when the 
>doors were closed.  If that's your type of customer commitment, it makes 
>me glad that *I'm* not loyal to BMW!  

The half-life of a typical American car is 50,000 miles.

Most European cars such as MB, BMW, Volvo, Saab are just broken in at
100,000...

>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        ___          
>       / _ \                 '85 Mustang GT                        Bob Pitas
>      /    /USH              14.13 @ 99.8                      bpita@ctp.com
>     / /| \                  Up at NED, Epping, NH           (Cambridge, MA)
>
>           "Laughed at by time, tricked by circumstances" -Peart
>Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, obviously, since they end with my .sig!
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jason
-- 
Jason Velasco                                      quadrun@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos