HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thorick@sybase.com (Thorick Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Badass Karate (-Do?)
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:11:19 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <24079@alice.att.com> garry@alice.UUCP () writes:
>
>From your description, it sounds like you're really talking about
>toughest training (full contact, etc).  This can vary greatly from
>school to school within a style.
>
>I suspect, however, if it's tough training you want, you'd have to look
>at something like SEAL training in the military.  After all, no matter
>how tough you train a couple o' times a week after work, it's nothing
>compared to the round the clock, flat out kind of workout these folks
>go through.  You just have to have the commitment.

and the gov't feeding you, clothing you, housing you (when you're not
out in the field), paying your medical bills, providing your ammo and supplies...

but gosh, I have to provide those things for myself, kind of eats away
at the possibility of training all day for weeks on end...

but I have no reason to complain..  I get to choose for what purpose
I use my training...  they don't.      

Which leads me to a kind of related topic...

My current teacher has just retired from his 'straight' job (teaching
High School)..  Up till now his life has been nothing but teaching
High school during the day and MA just about every night during the
week..  and teaching MA all day on Saturday...   

I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
for a living.  One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
enough students that he could have gotten by)..   i.e. he didn't
have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...

any comments on this idea ?

-t.c.


--
"..according to Chinese law, most suicides are considered criminal offenses
against Socialism and the Communist Party.  When someone takes his own life
members of the family are often punished, on the principle that they must have
either condoned or been influenced by the 'incorrect thought'.." -Iron & Silk
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Iron Palm Training
Keywords: Iron Palm, Conditioning
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:39:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.162255.21988@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> rob@austin.ibm.com writes:
>If anyone has any information on Iron Palm Training ie back issues
>of magazines, books, seminars, or legitimate instructors in the USA
>please post the information in a followup article.

I know a little bit, but I'm not willing to venture a description 
of it. (I'm fairly sure I'd leave something important out...)

                                       Frank Crary
                                       CU Boulder
From: aaron@cse.ucsc.edu (Aaron Emigh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Period of complete dedication (was ninja stuff)
Date: 5 Nov 1992 21:03:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ucsc.edu

In article <3NOV199212582740@csa3.lbl.gov> jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>...Among those of 
>you, or people you know, who have achieved mastery or at least
>a high level of skill, was there a period when you basically set
>your non-MA life aside and jocked out from sunrise to sunset?  
>Does this seem to be a prerequisite, a means of reaching a level 
>that we in the Tuesday-and-Thursday-nights-when-convenient crowd 
>will never see?

I don't advertise my skill level as particularly high, and I certainly
don't pretend to "mastery," but I do know that a number of years ago,
after a couple of years of study, I reached a sticking point of sorts,
where I felt a diminishing return from going to my classes three times a
week or so, and felt I had to decide either to make a serious commitment
and really start learning, or resign myself to mediocrity at best.

I worked out for 30+ hours a week for the next couple of years, getting
over that plateau and much more.  Seven years later, I still work out 15
hours a week or so, though there have been a few months in which I've
slacked off a bit.  I think this level of commitment is a necessary,
though most certainly in my case not a sufficient, condition for
mastery.

>Did you have to go to the ends of the earth to do it?

Well, I dunno.  I wouldn't call Providence, RI "the ends of the earth."
Though possibly if I had gone to the ends of the earth for training, I'd
be demonstrating my mastery by reciting incomprehensible epigrams
("harmonize your chi!") and throwing people about like baseballs.  :-)
Also, much of the time I've trained I've been largely on my own.  While
I think my progress was much slower during these periods, it's certainly
possible to do.

This is an interesting question, really.  Are there people out there who
just sort of dropped into the spirit of the training immediately and
didn't need a lot of hard work to get to a high level of proficiency?  I
know it hasn't always come easily to me.  (It still often doesn't, when
working in an unfamiliar style.)

>--Joe
>"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"

Aaron Emigh
aaron@iit.com
aaron@cse.ucsc.edu
From: la@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Lewis Alderton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido Books
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:59:35 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <BxHHtJ.Fyn@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, umande91@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Benjamin Robert Anderson) writes:
> 
> 	Greetings from the Great White North!
> 
>    I was wondering if there are any good or recomended books on Aikido that
> anyone has read?  I know next to nothing about it, and am interested in
> every aspect of it.  There is an Aikido school here, but I have been
> told it isn't very good, so I haven't gone there for info. 
> Can anyone give me a hand?
> 
By far the best book I have read is "Living Aikido" by
Bruce Klickstein. He used to be Saito Sensie's Uke.

Another common favourite is Aikido and the Dynamic sphere
by some-one and o-ratti.
-- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                 |I do not know what I may appear to the world, but |
| Lovely Louie    |to myself I seem to have been only like a small   |
| la@dcs.ed.ac.uk |boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself|
|                 |in now and then finding a smoother pebbly or a    |
|                 |prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great    |
|                 |ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.    |
|                 |           SIR ISAAC NEWTON                       |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate Bullshit
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:27:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: pogo.13918
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <1992Nov11.124858.931@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> y41@aix320a.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Jeffrey Hazelwood) writes:
>
>
>Ok folks pay attention.  
>
>A 70 Year old man whoopin' some young guys ass???? Possible, but 
>highly unlikely. Get real. I have never met a 70 year old man whose 
>ass I couldn't kick. Not that that means there isn't some tough
>old guy out there, it's just I don't believe he could whoop my ass.
>I guess you folks believe those guys in the Kung Fu movies can really 
>jump from the ground to the top of the Temple as well. 
>
   Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it  
   does not exist.  I have met several 70+ kendo instructors
   who are a little scary on the floor.  Most sensei of this class
   "play" with the younger opponents.  I have seen it and had it 
   done to me.  

   My instructor for instance is 70 he has had two strokes and his
   back has been fused (three vertebrae), but he can beat the crud
   out of anybody he chooses.  Fortunately he is more interested in
   developing his students than hurting them.

   My dojo was visited last week by Kino sensei 8th dan Hanchi in
   Iaido (Quick Draw Swordsmanship).  He is 76 and led the class in
   all kinds of horrible knee work drills.  Stuff the 16-25 year
   old crowd couldn't handle.  He also demonstrated the application
   of the Iai forms and it was very believeable and a little scary.

   I have seen a little of this type of instructor in Karate but
   it is harder to find.  That is one reason I do kendo more than
   karate.  I have vivid memories of an 83 year old sensei from
   Keio University OB (old Boys) Practice in Tokyo, saying bring
   the gaijin (foreigner) over. I was 25 and Nidan (2 nd BB) and
   he was 83 and 8th dan.  He referred to the 60 year olds as BOYS.
   All he did during our match (I use the term loosely) was laugh
   and smile.  He didn't move much but I still never hit him.  He
   hit me very hard whenever he wanted and I was completely out
   of breath and a little dizzy.  It was great and it made a big 
   impression on a young mind.

   I hope you can not be so angry at the MA you have seen.  Maybe 
   with luck and research you can see these things for yourself.


-- 
Robert Stroud       Robert_Stroud@simulacrum.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club
Portland Oregon USA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Example of a martial arts cult
Summary: Slightly mediating statement ...
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 11 NOV 92 11:04:14    


Peter Jason Ward <pw2j+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...
>Hey, thanks for posting this,  I checked out one of their dojos and
>thought that they were a little too concerned about my financial
>situation.   
>   Not going back again either.
>                                                 Peter Ward

I don't usually like to contribute to passing on negative information about a 
particular group, but this was such an extreme example, and not
by a long shot the first time I'd heard similar stories from
various media sources about this group.  

I can say that from my experiences
with some charismatic religious groups that it is possible that the
intention of much of their leadership is not nearly as malicious or greedy as 
the article makes it sound, and that their leadership does possibly 
legitimately believe in the principles they espouse.   

It sounds imo like they've at the very least gotten out of 
control, though, and people need to be aware of what kinds of things
to expect in a 'typical' martial arts club, which this is clearly not, and
to danger signs to look for in groups like this that have the potential for 
psychological and financial abuse of their members.

						caveat emptor,

						todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                             |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: princecr@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Badass Karate (-Do?)
Date: 5 Nov 92 08:16:16 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

> 
> I've heard about a game played in Wales, in which two people grab each other
> by the shoulders and kick each other repeatedly in the shins.  With hard shoes
> on.  The loser is the first to disengage.  It's not clear that this is a
> martial art, but it certainly is the most excruciating combat-type game I've
> ever heard of.

	In Russia they do a similar thing, they slap each other in the face
till one gives up.

chris.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: Badass Karate (-Do?)
Organization: just me
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:50:02 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts

In article <1dnacgINN348@spool.mu.edu> kickda@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Damien Kixk) writes:
>In article <1992Nov09.142134.19412@srg.srg.af.mil> 
>   dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
>>In article <25441@sybase.sybase.com> thorick@sybase.com (Thorick Chow) writes:
>>>
>>>Well, a guy came around to a Tai Chi class I was in who said he did Kempo.
>>>He surprised a few people by saying that he broke his hands punching
>>>hard objects..  as he proudly put it:
>>>
>>>	"I must break my own bones so that I can break the bones of
>>>	 my opponent"
>>>
>>>just so..   this seems pretty tough to me...
>>>
>>>gosh, maybe I should have someone beat me over the head with
>>>a baseball bat so that when it REALLY happens, I'll be used to it !
>>
>>Not so tough...He can never train to kill, can he? :-)
>>
>>	David Pipes
>>robear@digex.com
>
>       Didn't they used to do just that?  Didn't that used to
>  be the whole point?  Someone please bring up this subject ...
>  I know it wasn't that simple.  To wax all hollywoodish, I
>  realize there were the Shaolin monks (only "experience" I've
>  had with them is through the tv show "Kung-fu").
>

Let me clarify...By the above logic he would have to kill himself to know
how to kill others...I just found it humorous.

David Pipes
robear@digex.com
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Badass Karate (-Do?)
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:52:32 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <Bx4GDI.FwF@news.udel.edu> weigand@chopin.udel.edu (Steven E Weigand) writes:
>The "hard" and "soft" martial arts typically refer to whether that
>martial art is external or internal in nature. Most people agree
>that martial arts such as karate, taekwondo, and shaolin kung-fu
>are external martial arts, and therefore are of the "hard" type.
>On the other hand, martial arts such as aikido, tai-chi, chi-kung,
>pa-kua, and hsing-i are internal in nature, and are therefore of
>the "soft" type. 
>
>"Hard" styles are styles which rely on muscles to put power into
>a strike (external=soft=done with muscles). "Soft" styles do not

Steven, even with your correction (external=hard, internal=soft), I still think
you're not quite right.  I see the hard/soft and internal/external spectra as
related but distinct.  For instance, I don't think an internal style can
really be hard, though there are harder and softer arts within the internal
ones (e.g., t'ai chi is softer than pa kua is softer than hsing yi, but all
three are decidedly internal).  OTOH, an external art can be quite soft,
quite hard, or somewhere in between (e.g., some Southern styles of kung fu
are quite soft, generic Shaolin kung fu is middle-of-the-road, and Muay Thai
and Kyokushinkai are incredibly hard).

Al
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Time required to attain Black Belt
From: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 23:22:15 GMT
Reply-To: parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Distribution: world
Organization: Masterful Enterprises UnLimited.


In article <1992Nov5.013037.14806@sfu.ca> guay@fraser.sfu.ca writes:

 > In article <eric.t.zmarzly.1-041192145506@129.74.199.139> >  eric.t.zmarzly.1@nd.edu (Eric Zmarzly) writes:
 > >I was wondering about how long it takes different arts to attain a Black
 > >Belt, which is really only a beginning anyway.

 > In my Hapkido Dojang, training 3 times a week, it will take 4 years on average. >

In my style of Kyokushinkai karate, the minimum training time is 4 and a
half years, training a minimum of two two hour sessions a week.

Practically, though, it's more like six years, training about three
times a week.

Hope this helps...
From: td06@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (THOMAS EDWARD DEFLAVEES)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Time required to attain Black Belt
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:02:07 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>- I was wondering about how long it takes different arts to attain a Black
>- Belt, which is really only a beginning anyway.
>-
>- Anybody?

Well, It took me 7 years to get Sho ranking in Shotokan, but that included 4
years of college, which SEVERELY curtailed my training time.  All in all, I
figure about 4.5 years of actual training time.

And while we're on the subject, I'll just state for the record, that I don't
feel that it is at all appropriate for someone to attain a black belt in less
than 3 years.  It is very infrequently the case that someone can devote a
significant ammount of their time (say at least 3 or 4 nights a week) to
serious study and training.  In these cases, I'd say I still have reservations
about it.  And certainly, the vast ammount of students should be in training
for 4+ years.  Now, obviously there is room for individualization.  But I feel
that there is much more to Dan ranking than the color of a belt and a pool of
technical knowledge.

   Frighteningly, I know of several schools which contract for a 1st degree in
   just a little over 2 3/4 years, regardless of attendence, maturation, etc.
   I have personally seen some of my students (5th kyu, green belt) almost
   literally blow the pants off of some of these "supposed black belts"  Maybe
   it's just me, but I fail to see how anyone but the most dedicated student
   can be ready to accept the responsibility that comes with Dan rank.  The
   ability to teach alone requires a great deal of practice, not even to
   mention maturity, creativity, patience, and understanding of the
   differences in individuals and their training level.

    Anyway, I'll leap down from my soapbox now, just stating that I truly feel
    that students put through the "belt-mill" schools have missed an integral
    part of what I consider to be good Martial Arts training.

    Tom DeFlavees -  The Eternal Grad student......at this rate anyway !
    td06@lehigh.edu
From: aaron@cse.ucsc.edu (Aaron Emigh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: question
Date: 5 Nov 1992 03:11:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ucsc.edu
Keywords: question

In article <40487@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen) writes:
>how do you get a friend to just try out a martial art for maybe
>only one class if only to stretch them out? 

For my money, you don't.  If they're interested of their own volition,
then by all means encourage it, but I think that bringing your friends
into your activities just because _you_ think they have value is more
likely to alienate than to help your friends.

>many of my friends
>have some minor ailments (stiff necks, tense muscles, sore joints
>etc.) and they have watched a couple of my aikido classes but they
>seem to be afraid of getting on the mat to just stretch. i try to
>tell them that they don't have to join the class but just strecth
>with us but the fear is still there. any suggestions?

If there are specific exercises you think would help, why not just show
them the exercises, outside class, with no mention of martial arts?

>dzu

Aaron Emigh
aaron@iit.com
aaron@cse.ucsc.edu

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mike_seilnacht@taligent.com (Mike Seilnacht)
Subject: Aikido in Fresno
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Taligent.com
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:23:10 GMT

I have a friend living in Fresno, Ca. who is looking for a local Aikido
school.  If you are aware of any schools in that area, could you please
respond to me via mail.

Thankyou,
--Mike
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nwalczak@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Nick)
Subject: Stretching
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:49:11 GMT


Hi!

Read Tom Kurz's book.  He did his MSc thesis on this kind of thing, the
book is called 'Stretching Scientifically' and really is the last word on the
subject.

If you don't wish to buy it, I can tell you a few key points from it:

1) Dynamic stretching (controlled leg raises) every morning, as soon as
you get up will improve your suppleness when not warmed up.  IE: eventually
you will be able to do the splits without a warmup.

2) A workout should be as follows:

        - manipulate and warm up all joints starting from the extremities
        - Short cardiovascular warm up
        - Dynamic stretching:
                leg raises forwards, to the side and back.
        - The actual workout eg: kicking a bag
        - Relaxed stretching eg: forward bends
        - Isometric stretching: ie: when doing a split, tense the insides
          of the legs before stretching them further.

3) Stretching frequency
        - Dynamic and relaxed stretching can be done once or twice a day
        - Isometric stretching should only be done every other day AND on the
          intervening day, no leg exercises should be done

Hope this helps,

Nick
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cschum@engin.umich.edu (Corey Joseph Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Time required to attain Black Belt
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 09:42:59 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <eric.t.zmarzly.1-041192145506@129.74.199.139> eric.t.zmarzly.1@nd.edu (Eric Zmarzly) writes:
>I was wondering about how long it takes different arts to attain a Black
>Belt, which is really only a beginning anyway.
>
>Anybody?
>
>Eric 

In my TKD school, it's technically possible to get one in three years, but
I haven't seem one given to anyone who's trained for less than four.
Everyone seems to slow down somewhere along the way.
Time required varies not so much with the style but with the head instructor
and his wishes.  I know ther's a lot of variation within TKD, for example.

Corey

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: Ted's Aikido Tips #1
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:32:24 GMT


   Someone recently posted about how painful it was doing sankyo 30
   times at a seminar.  Here's something that'll make it less
   stressful to the wrist.  Make it a point to keep your thumb inward 
   towards your little finger if you can.  I.e., avoid the "human
   snuff box" that forms from the two tendons at the base of the thumb
   if the thumb is placed on the side of the wrist.  This also makes it 
   painless to do a sankyo stretch on oneself using the opposite hand. 

   Enjoy.  Let me suggest that if anyone has their own useful tricks
   (or comments on mine) that they post them to share with everyone --

    -- Ted --

==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912