HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MDT109@psuvm.psu.edu (Michelle Tracey)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: CO to jury duty? 150 lines
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:34:15 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

Your experience, Friend, is not a new one to me.  This summer i served Jury
duty.  Many times we were asked to give oaths.  This i did not do, I spoke
to people involved, when they learned that i was Quaker, they allowed me this
right, but i still had many disagreeable thoughts, and did much thinking on the
reasons for this.  On the type of double standard of truth that this implies.
I would have been fine had i not been called to serve on a criminal case
involving drunkened driving.  I stood in respect to the judge, not because i
wanted to, but because i was embarassed not to.  That sat heavy on my
conscience.  I did not swear.  This is something i will refuse to do.  My
conscience already heavy, I had to choose between the word of a "respected"
police officer, who claimed that the driver had been drinking, and of a young
man.  This is not my way.  I could not believe that the young man would lie,
before so many people.  I know i could not.  I judged him on his word, at face
value.  I did the same with the police officer.  The case was poorly tried, and
I was left with a reasonable doubt that the man was innocent.  In the
deliberation, I was often told to judge without bias as to what would happen to
him.  I felt that i WAS judging without bias, my thoughts were not of the
penalty, whatever it is, but of my standard of truth.  I remained the only
person who had a doubt, others changed their minds because he refused to take
the breathalyzer test.   I was left.  I still could not judge against the man
with the doubts i carried.  The jury was left hung.  This could not be allowed
though.  The judge demanded a verdict, I stood my ground, but my resolve
slipped.  I was forced to give in, to make a verdict i did not believe in.  I
wanted to refuse to go into the courtroom, but i could not force myself to be
in contempt of the court.  Yes the man was guilty, Yes he lied in court, No, I
could not make the decision based on my reasonable doubt.  I felt that i had
been forced to go against myself and have since had a sour taste about jury
duty.  I am naiive enough to think that all people have my views, that no one
would lie in court, This is a character fault, but i know not how to, or even
if i can fix it.  This is another problem on which i am searching for enlight-
enment.

Thank thee for thy ear...
From: swisher@cs.utexas.edu (Janet M. Swisher)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Conscience
Date: 23 Nov 1992 11:32:51 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: boogie.cs.utexas.edu

In article <HT.92Nov22225900@barclay.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) writes:
>But one of the fundamental commitments we
>make when we join the Religious Society of Friends is to the principle
>that an agreed minute from a Meeting for Worship for Business has a
>unique and special status, because it records a non-individual
>perspective ratified by the Spirit.  Such a minute DOES carry moral
>authority, and could, in the unlikely event a Meeting actually had the
>power (probably not actually the case since 18th century
>Pennsylvania), serve as the legitimate basis for compelling someone's
>behaviour in a particular way, even against their will.

I think what this account misses is that if the Friends'
decision-making process has been followed truly, there will not be
anyone in the community whose will differs from what the community has
determined.  The reason that Friends do not use plain-old democracy is
that the majority does violence to the minority in imposing its will.
The Friends' decision-making process attempts to find a position or
course of action that all members not only agree with, but can commit
themselves to.  When that happens, the compliance of any individual
with the decision is no more coerced than their "compliance" with
decisions they make on their own.

Of course, the process does not always occur ideally.  What to do when
one or a few members, in order to be true to their conscience, stand
in opposition to the majority -- this is one of the hardest issues
Friends face.  If I had the answer, I'd be a saint ;-), but I feel
such situations must be responded to on an individual basis.

-- 
Don't take life so serious ... it ain't *no how* permanent. -- Porkypine.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:44:18 EST
From: Michelle Tracey <MDT109@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: What price should a Quaker merchant

In article <1744600033@igc.apc.org>, Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org> says:

>*/
>/* ---------- "What price should a Quaker merchant" ---------- */
>I have the barest leading on this question, maybe some discussion
>could help.  What price should a Quaker merchant charge for goods?
>$49.95 or $50.00?  $.99 or $1.00?

>A Quaker merchant would charge the same price to everyone.  And,
>I think, in states with sales tax, he/she would also note how
>much that tax would come to for that particular item.

Here I am in agreement.  I think that .99 vs 1.00 is rather petty, but,
Were I the merchant in this case, my option would be to include the
sales tax in the marked price.  So instead of .99 the price (In PA) would
be written 1.05. and 49.94 as 52.95.  I have never understood the need to
have a marked price and then have to figure out 6% tax.

Miki
From: Sean.P.Donahue@dartmouth.edu (Sean P. Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Life in prison...
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:00:40 GMT
 <1992Nov19.040259.22873@u.washington.edu>  
 <Uf2vl8q00VpNIwcVIy@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

The peoblem is that all punishment is by its very nature violent.  We
need to mmove from punishment to healing.  If we are to have prisons,
they must truly become institutions designed to truly rehabilitate. 
Calling a prison bureau a "Department of Correction" isn't enough if
the will is for revenge and the ppractice is punishment.  I believe our
prisons are preferable to capital punishment, but if we are truly to be
peaceful people we must oppose all punishment.  It's a difficult stand
to take, but we Friends are no strangers to difficult stands, and must
again lead the way.

In peace,
Sean Donahue
(sean.p.donahue@dartmouth.edu)

"I have no time for cruel correction . .. I have all the time in the
world for tenderness."  - Fred Small
From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Life in prison...
Date: 19 Nov 1992 05:55:05 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

gnat@stein.u.washington.edu (L Boyd) writes:
>a condemned man who murdered and sexually assaulted 3 young
>boys.  He wants to waive all appeals and be executed ASAP.
>I say a fitting punishment for him is to lock him in a small cell
>and throw away the key.  That way if he is still hell-bent on self
>-anihlition, he'll have to do it himself.
>Violence even against violent offenders only begets more of the same.
 
I brutally shortened your text, so the server would accept this
article.
 
Isn't locking someone up a form of violence?  Doesn't this man have
the light within him also?  Can we say we are truly any better than
this man?  Who are we to judge?  Who are we to punish?  WHo are we
to be a person's external conscience?  An external conscience is no
conscience at all.  I say let him go free.  I know the cost of this.
I believe it is worth it.
 
Glenn                                glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Date: 18 Nov 92 11:19 PST
Subject: Re: What price should a Quaker merchant
Nf-ID: #R:721943400snx@crynwr.com:885261747:cdp:1744600033:000:619
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Nov 18 11:19:00 1992


From: Joel Sax <jsax>
Subject: What price should a Quaker merchant

Russ Nelson writes

/begin quote/

/* Written 11:50 am  Nov 16, 1992 by nelson@crynwr.com in igc:soc.religion.q */
/* ---------- "What price should a Quaker merchant" ---------- */
I have the barest leading on this question, maybe some discussion
could help.  What price should a Quaker merchant charge for goods?
$49.95 or $50.00?  $.99 or $1.00?


/end quote/

A Quaker merchant would charge the same price to everyone.  And,
I think, in states with sales tax, he/she would also note how
much that tax would come to for that particular item.

Joel
From: nelson@crynwr.com (Russell Nelson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: What price should a Quaker merchant charge?
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:50:00 GMT
Organization: Crynwr Software

I have the barest leading on this question, maybe some discussion
could help.  What price should a Quaker merchant charge for goods?
$49.95 or $50.00?  $.99 or $1.00?

-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> What canst *thou* say?
Crynwr Software           Crynwr Software sells packet driver support.
11 Grant St.              315-268-1925 Voice  |  LPF member - ask me about
Potsdam, NY 13676         315-268-9201 FAX    |  the harm software patents do.
From: js06+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason Lee Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Life in prison...
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:09:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Uf2vl8q00VpNIwcVIy
	<1992Nov19.040259.22873@u.washington.edu>
Organization: Senior, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>Since he is so anxious to die<<<< (it's clear that he murdered the boys in an
>attempt to get the state to kill him)>>>>>> I say a fitting punishment for him
>is to lock him in a small cell and throw away the key.  That way, if he
>is still hell-bent on self-anihlition, he'll have to do it himself.

Is this clear, though? That's pretty convoluted thinking, even for a
psychopath. There are much easier ways to end one's life, that don't
involve a conscious decision, merely a subconscious death wish. 

Certainly someone like this should be imprisoned, but I think someone
that sick really deserves as much help as he could be given. I mean, he
is clearly insane and should be given as much treatment as possible to
restore his sanity, if for no other reason, than if you just lock him in
a hole and forget about him, there's always the chance that he somehow
get out, and he'd probably be even more disturbeb. If it turns out that
he isn't insane, or is untreatable, and he still persists in his desire
to be killed, what is necesarrily wrong with allowing him a fatal
injection? If he is clearly in torment being alive, why should we force
him to remain alive?

However, I couldn't give him the injection, but that's another story.


		Jason


"Only the mediocre are always at their best."

			-Jean Giraudoux
From: gnat@stein.u.washington.edu (L Boyd)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Life in prison...
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:02:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov19.040259.22873
Organization: University of Washington

andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory) writes:


>I feel that life imprisonment is not life spared.

 I couldn't agree more.  Here in Washington, we have a condemned man who
murdered and sexually assaulted 3 young boys.  He wants to waive all appeals
and be executed ASAP.

Since he is so anxious to die (it's clear that he murdered the boys in an
attempt to get the state to kill him) I say a fitting punishment for him
is to lock him in a small cell and throw away the key.  That way, if he
is still hell-bent on self-anihlition, he'll have to do it himself.

I know if I had a choice, I would pick death over life in prison!

Violence -- even against violent offenders -- only begets more of the same.

Thanks!

Lauren
From: ekrem@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Ekrem Saban)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Summary of Questions from an Innocent. A few more Q's.
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:30:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Vienna

In article <1992Oct20.173117.13052@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
[...]
   : 
   :    This is the best response to this question that I saw. Many
   : respondents identified one or another of these factors but noone
   : else suggested they were both operating. There was one I thought
   : might be important but noone suggested they thought so too: Does
   : so much violence in the Islamic nations turn off Americans?

   The main reason could be the christian background of  Americans, specifically
   the absolute disallowment of killing. It is only allowed to forgive no matter
   what. If you are hit on the left cheek, give him the other cheek.

To forgive an offence done against a Muslim is also strongly adviced
in the Holy Qur'an. However, we differentiate between an offence
against an individual and an offence against God (or institutions
like the Shariah).


--
_______  __ __________________________________________________ _ __________________
   /|   |    	A. Ekrem SABAN	         / 	Technische Universitat Wien
  /_|_  |_  ekrem@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at /Inst.f.Techn.Informatik, VLSI-Design
 /  |     | "Nu ninda-a ezateni,  /Adr: 1040 Wien, Treitlstr. 3/2, Fax:(43-1)569697  
/   |__ __|  vadar ma ekuteni"   /Tel:(43-1)58801/8147, /3384 (Mo.17-19 CET)
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: New Muslim support network.
Date: 13 Nov 1992 14:43:30 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Salaam Alekum.

I am trying to form a support network for new Muslims.  I feel that
there is an urgent need for this.  Muslims are cropping up all over
the world, even in very isolated places.  Many of these can be reached
over electronic networks and we must provide them all the help that we
can.

I want to form a group of people who will be able to provide help and
support for these people.  I prefer Muslims who have converted
themselves, as opposed to brothers and sisters who have been Muslim
all their life -- the reason here being that they *might* be able to
relate better to the specific problems of new Muslims. Of course, I
am not at all trying to exclude anyone and if you would like to help,
I would be very happy.

If you are interested, please drop me a note; I am starting a mailing
list for this.  Also, I would be grateful if someone could tell me if
such a network already exists - I will try to join them and also bring
some new Muslims.

Salam Alekum,
Basalat Ali Raja.
From: srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Any Sufi related resources on the Internet?
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:18:50 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

Hello friends.  Wondering if anyone can point me towards resources 
(mail lists etc.) on the Internet related to "Sufism" (it's not really
an "ism", but...)  My name is Steve Habib Rose, and I can be reached
at srose@mizar.usc.edu (I don't believe the mizar part is necessary).
Thanks much.
From: achmad@stud.cs.uit.no (Achmad )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Islam and food
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:06:28 GMT
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway


I ahve been wondering. why can't we muslims eat porks(pigs). Someone told
me that the reason is that pigs are dirty animals. I know that ALLAH SWT
forbidden us to eat this, But can you give me explanation for why?


ACHMAD
Xref: sparky soc.religion.islam:1943 soc.culture.pakistan:17036 soc.culture.iranian:10218 soc.culture.arabic:5066 soc.culture.bangladesh:6168 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:590 soc.culture.indian:37911
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: It Is High Time to Stop Under-Utilizing Half of Muslim Population
Date: 22 Nov 1992 17:27:24 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Reply-To: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In <722385590@flounder.cs.duke.edu> azhar@duke.cs.duke.edu (D. Salman [Quintessential] Azhar) writes:

"    The message of Islam, my friends, is clearly that both men and
" women should seek understanding of the material and spritual world.
" Why, then, do we discourage muslim women from this pursuit. After all
" women constitute (the more important) half of our population (since
" their influence in raising the progeny exceeds that of men).

   I (almost) completely agree with this opinion, but I want to add that
it is high time too to start utilising the first half of Muslim population 
at all.

   Also, the emphasis in Islam is on the spiritual knowledge. Material
knowledge has no significance in Islam unless it serves the spiritual
aspect and the cause of our existance. For example, knowledge to play
poker has no significance.

   The quality of knowledge must be emphasised. Collecting university
degrees can hardly imply good level of useful knowledge or the use
thereof. Now Muslims with university degrees are much more than they
were say 1000 years ago, but so what?

** The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it,
   to confess your ignorance.
                              --Confucius
                              
_________________________\    Any resemblance between the above opinions and
   __      ___ __     ___     those of real or fictitious  persons is purely
 /V  \   /V   V  \   /   \    coincidental.
 /   /   /   /   /  /   _    
/   /_  /   /   /_  \__//     "Now, the time is moving on
____________________ _/___    and I really should be gone"--Brotherhood of Man
\ Nabeel M Ghuzlaan //                        in "Save All Your Kisses For Me"
From: shashem@ecn.purdue.edu (Sherif Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Information list (request)
Date: 21 Nov 92 21:23:12 GMT


Alsalam Alaykum,

I have an old version (4/90) of a list about ingradients of Foods,
 Toothpaste, and Other products clarifying whether or not they 
contain Pork or pork products. 
Your name was mentioned as the moderator of soc.religion.islam, 
and there was a note about maintaining an on-line list.  
Can you please send me a more updated list or tell me from where 
can I get one.
Thanks.

Sherif Hashem 

School of Industrial Engineering
1287 Grissom Hall, Purdue University,
West Lafayette, IN 47907-1287.
shashem@ecn.purdue.edu
From: nadeem%igpho@uunet.UU.NET (Nadeem Malik)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Islam: One religion: no sects
Date: 23 Nov 92 20:35:48 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH


merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
: >From: nadeem%igpho@uunet.UU.NET (Nadeem Malik)
: >Subject:The Seal Of Prophets, Reply to Raheel Khan: R1
: >Date: 21 Nov 92 21:45:39 GMT
: 
: 	Islam: One religion, no sects.
: >
: >
: >
: >It should be made clear that only the modern day Muslim Scholars consider
: >people who believe in continuity of Prophethood as not Muslim. But then,
: >the Holy Prophet said that 72 out 73 sects in Islam in the latter days would be
: >astray and only one would be rightly guided. So where does this leave us! Again
: >
: 
:         And if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to
:         Allah and the Messenger. (4:59)
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly! Having referred it to the Holy Prophet (SAW), i.e. hadeeth, he
says there will be 1 true jamat and 72 hellish sects.

: 
:         This is my path, so follow it.  Follow not other ways
:         lest ye be parted from his way. (6:153)
: 
: And the words of Allah (swt) are true.
: 
:         Hold fast together by the Rope which Allah (streches out for
:         you); and be not divided amoung yourselves.  Al-e-Imran 3:103
: 
:         As for those who divide their religion and break up into
:         sects, you have no part in them in the least; their affair
:         is with Allah.  He will in the end tell them the truth of
:         all that they did.  Al An'am 6: 159
: 
:         Obey Allah and His Messenger and fall into no disputes,
:         lest you lose heart and your power depart.  And be patient
:         and perseving; for Alllah is with those who patiently
:         persevere.  Al Anfal 8:46
: 
:         By Allah! That is the standard Religion, but most men
:         among mankind understand not.  Turn back in repentence
:         to Him, and fear Him.  Establish regular Prayer, and be
:         not among those who join gods with Allah;  those who
:         spilt up their religion, and become (mere) sects, each
:         party rejoicing that which itself.  Al Rum 30: 30-3
: 
:         The same Religion has He established for you that which
:         He enjoined on Noah; that which We have sent by inspiration
:         to you; and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and
:         Jesus; namely, that you should remain steadfast in religion
:         and make no division therin.  Al Shura 42:13
: 
: And the words of Allah (swt) are true.

Indeed they are, Alhamdoillah.

Can some non-Ahmadi Muslims answer some questions please:

(1) How do you reconcil the 72 sects and 1 jamat hadeeth with the claim
that there are no sects in Islamic world?

(2) Can you tell me which one of the 73 sects/jamat is the correct one
so that I can follow it please. Thank you.

(3) Do you regard sunnis and shias as both equally part of Islam?

Many thanks.
:   
: 
: >
: >Nadeem Malik
: >
: 
: -Rukhsana Merchant
: 
: 
Nadeem Malik
From: "Keith A. Marino" <kmarino@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Converting to Islam
Date: 19 Nov 1992 00:33:48 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Reply-To: "Keith A. Marino" <kmarino@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Hello,

I am an American who has been interested in converting to Islam for
sometime now.  I have found that most of the beliefs in Islam have been
very traditional to my own beliefs.  I was raised religious, but I never
believed in what I was tought.  I would tell people that I was
"non-religious."  Then last year, I met and started to discuss Islam with
a Muslim.  I was intrigued that some of the beliefs mentioned were beliefs
that I had always held, note that these beliefs contradict the beliefs
taught to me in my youth.  One important belief is the humbleness of the
Muslim as to not equate Allah with man (A very fundamentle issue with me).

I have started to read "Focus in Islam," the author's name escapes me at
this moment.  But I am lost as what to do next.  What I am asking for is a
more direct approach to Islam.  I don't mind reading, but my time is
limited and I feel that this process is taking far too long.  Also, what
is the process for converting to Islam, where can I get this information.

I also have been told that there are many different sects of Islam, some
far more conservative than others.  I don't think that a super
conservative group would be good for me to start with.  I am looking for a
group that will have a readiness to accept someone new to the faith.  I
live in Orange County, California.

I would also like to start a dialog with some of you to help me in this
transition to Islam.  If you are interested in taking the time to help
someone in need of answers (and even some questions), please establish a
communication with me.

I look forward to hearing from some of you.

Keith Marino