From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: As long as we are speaking of hell ...
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:35:00 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In article <Apr.2.00.43.57.1992.8888@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> on
2 Apr 92 05:43:58 GMT you write:
 
>In article <Apr.1.04.05.34.1992.11847@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:
>>In the Apostle Paul's writings, does he not talk about 3 heavens?  One with
>>the glory like the sun, moon and stars as archtypes?  These appear to be
>>the major groupings of spirits (we won't count Hell ... I doubt its a
>>kingdom of glory).  Who goes where?
>
>Especially considering the fact that Paul speaks of the sun and moon
>in his mention of heavens perhaps, we should not assume that the three
>"heavens" refer to places where the dead go.  "Heavens" can
>be translated "sky" in some passages.
 
"Elohim" can be translated as Gods too, but let's not fall in a pit!
Look at the tenor of his message, it clearly implies types of people,
not places to go after death.  The nature of their resurrection is related
to the kind of life they lived--and relates to the kind of glory they
will receive.  One must exercise faith in Christ.  This faith MUST be
followed by works, or it is a false faith.  ... Things hoped for ...
which are true  ...  faith without works is DEAD.  Dead faith is a
false faith.  Salvation is by grace, i.e. God didn't have to have Christ
die on the cross, but He did--this is the grace part.  Our final destination
(of glory) is based upon our actions.  ...  If ye love Me, keep My
commandments.  How do you keep commandments without works?  I say it is
impossible!  Again, ... press forward, make your calling and election
sure ... How do you do this without works?  I say it is impossible!
 
>Perhaps one heaven ends at our atmosphere and the other contains the planets
>and stars and the rest of the universe, and the third heaven is where
>the Father resides.
 
I don't think so.  Too many things indicate otherwise.
 
>
>>From my readings of the Bible, I draw the inference that God created
>>us with the specific intent that we could become just like Him.
>
>Does God have the power?  That is like asking if He can make a rock so
>big He can't lift it.  God describes Himself as a "jealous God."  Isaiah
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
When it comes to the children of Israel worshipping OTHER GODS.
 
Do I have more power than God?  I can raise my children to be my equal.
I do not worship a God of which there is no affinity.  IF I (we) can not
become like Him, Why did He create me (us)?  Why do we call Him Father?  Why
does He call us children?  .....   10-15 more questions to show the only
answer is THERE IS an AFFINITY with HIM, therefore we can be like Him.
We are of the SAME NATURE, in the LIKENESS and IMAGE.
 
>makes it clear that there is none other like Him.  Lucifer was cast down
>for wanting to be like God in authority.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not like Him, but above Him!  Is the son greater than the Father?  No,
but they can be equal.  If God has all power and Christ was given all
power, do They not have the same power?  Christ is a son, we can be
co-heirs--equal with Christ, hence equal with the Father.
>
>After death is defeated, even Christ will be subjected to the Father.  He
>will reign untill every enemy is subdued.  We should certainly not think that
>we will ever have God's power.
 
And so will I be my son's father, even after he becomes an adult and my
equal.  When this happens, the only difference between he and I will be
our patriarchal positions--Father-Son.  I am a father, yet I too am a son--a
son of my father!  When my son is my equal, he will be the equal of my father
also, but yet he will be a grandson.  This holds true, even in eternity.
 
 +-----------------------------------------------------+
 | Roger Holfeltz   -  The truth can be made up,       |
 |                     if you know how                 |
 |                                                     |
 |  My mind IS a terrible, terrible thing              |
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 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably     |
 |             not your's either!                      |
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