HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: papo@pyuxf.uucp (25241-anaya)
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 15:37:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.184331.25829@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>
>Windows is a hell of a lot more functional for me than AmigaOS until you
>can tell me where I can buy AmigaOS versions of Quicken and FrameMaker.
>What do you know about the inside of Windows anyway?
>
>--
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
>| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
>|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+

\sarcasmmode(on){
I'm a lowly Amiga user that has to deal with Windows
in his workplace.  I'm using it to communicate to a lowly IBM mainframe
to do my job.  I have a great Windows set up.  a 286 computer
with 1 Meg's and a 40 Meg's drive.  It takes 10 seconds to
move from one window to the other.  But at least I can run
Word 1.0 with few crashes.
}
\sarcasmmode(off){
However the 3270 emmulator jams my serial port
so each time I read posts in c.s.a.a most of the words are chopped.
and yes, the 3270 emmulator uses a SNA coax interface, a totally
different card outside from the serial port.  The card does'nt have
anything else to do because I have run DOS based 3270's emmulators
without any problems with aa DOS based terminal.

The same problem happens in some MPC configurations.  One thing
can not work with another because of interrupt interruptions.
(graphics card with sound cards or program a with program b)
That's a problem that has to be address, I rather live without
memory protection in my Amiga than with interrupt interruptions.

However too bad that there is no 3270 emmulators with SNA card
interfaces for Amiga (as far as I know) maybe with AMAX and plugging
a Mac's card could do the trick but I rather have all the advantages
of the AmigaOS than the one of the Mac.

If the interrupt interruptions problem is solved in OS/2 I might be
able to try it out, however I would need some info from the 
OS/2 advocates that lurks in c.s.a.a.

}

Cheers


Luis Roberto Anaya-Rivera         papo@pyuxf.cc.bellcore.com
-----
AWSDA member since 1992.  "You have the absolute right to defend yourself".
A true PL/1 hacker. DCL 1 CLASS BASED (THIS), 3 MEMBER_FUN ENTRY;
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:13:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.003542.27161@netcom.com> damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
>In <C0I60E.30n@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>
>>   Does Apple really have to do anything to the internals of the machine?  
>>Apple sold 2 million Macintoshes last year -- and three Macintoshes for every
>>Amiga that Commodore sold -- despite the lack of a real multitasking OS.  
>>Perhaps if Commodore took the old cliche "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"
>>and made the Amiga a little more Mac-like by giving the Amiga more surface
>>polish and friendliness, Commodore would sell more Amigas.  They would also
>>need to push some major software developers to devleop Amiga software.
>
>thanks for sharing that (twice).

   That was a mistake.  

>"if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", nonsense. by that logic, amiga should 
>break the multitasking and add a few surface pretties to the OS and
>the Amiga will sell like hotcakes.

   Why would it be necessary to break the multitasking to add surface pretties
to the OS?

> HA! i seem to recall a certain nimrod with 
>the initials MARC BARRETT saying that the reason amiga doesn't sell is
>because of the braindead marketing department (an opinion i agree with).

   The inelegance of the OS probably has something to do with it.  A person 
can sit down at an unconfigured, uncustomized Macintosh for the first time
and figure out how to use it in minutes.  An Amiga -- especially one with the
default out-of-the-box preferences in place -- is a MUCH more difficult system
to use.  AmigaOS 2.0 still has not changed much, really.  You have to add a
lot of PD/freeware utilities to the system and make major changes to the
preferences to make an Amiga more attractive and usable.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
From: dstuve@storm.CS.ORST.EDU (David Stuve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: 3 cheers for the Amiga 4000 and C=!
Summary: Nice job, C=
Keywords: a4000 commodore good
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:33:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: storm.cs.orst.edu

I just got my brand-spankin' new A4000!  Nice job Commodore!
But guess who bought one at the same time?  A friend who sold his
3000 to buy a PC last year!  He took one look at the 1200, and
said "Commodore's going to sell a boatload of those," and
bought a 4000 so that he could write stuff for it.

The manuals are very professional (AmigaDOS, AREXX, Workbench, Hard Drive,
and A4000 manual.)  I like the new logo -- it's not very catchy, but
its pleasing...

If Commodore keeps this up, we may have a very bright future indeed!

-David 

-- 
========================================================================
David Stuve                          | InterNet: dstuve@storm.cs.orst.edu
Software Engineer                    |
MindWorks -- Advanced Amiga Software | Crescat Scientia Vita Excolatur
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:53:26 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Skip Sauls (skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
:
: Okay, the Orchid S3 based Farenheit board is $290 in Computer Shopper and
: I've heard that the UltraSound is around $130.  Add that to the price of
: the Gateway 4SX-25 and you're price is over $1900.  Sort of takes you out
: of A1200 territory, doesn't it?
:

Really?  What does an A1200 cost, with a big hard drive, nice monitor, and
32-voice 16-bit digital sound?

: Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: Univ. of SW Louisiana, Lafayette
	<C0MEA7.MwA@news.iastate.edu>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 08:43:09 GMT

In article <C0MEA7.MwA@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:






   >Marc N. Barrett (barrett@iastate.edu) wrote:
   >
   >> >A word processor/database/drawing/spreadsheet/communications package?
   >> >How much would you be willing to pay for such a monster?
   >> 
   >>    $170.  That's how much MicroSoft Works costs.  I still say that it should
   >> be packaged with high-end and mid-range Amigas, since Apple packages 
   >> Claris Works with many of their systems.

Marc, I doubt the things in MS Works for Windows are spectacular.  Perhaps on
par with typical Amiga apps, but not Word or Excel.

Someone posted once saying she was limited by the Work word processor
the first day she used it.

   ---
   | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
   --------------------------------------------------------------------

-Dan, with his first follow-up using GNUS.
--
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu
"I'd rather have a kiss of my yellow gypsy's lips"
From: Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: VistaPro & clones
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:22:47 GMT
Organization: DreamStates BBS & CyberNet HQ in G'ville, FL   1-904-331-4317

In a message dated Thu  7 Jan 93  4:11, Cs902125@ariel.yorku.ca (shuk C Yip
wrote:

>   For all I know, there is No VR company marketing VR systems that 
>use the MAC or IBM.(I know I could be wrong, but I don't think I am).

There are quite a few companies using IBMs for virtual reality
applications.  Even Virtuality, of which the Amiga is the heart of their
system, does the rendering on superfast IBM compatibles..

I do believe, though, that the Amigas are ideally suited to VR work and
will be using them for a company I and a friend are forming.

-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

* IF replying by MAIL, please reply to the addresses listed below...
--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
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 \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: aa387@yfn.ysu.edu (Corey Norton)
Subject: Re: A4000 Pricing
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:58:04 GMT


Sorry guys,but my local dealer has the base 4000 for 2499.99 +
the monitor so you guys really should start looking for a new
dealer
--
From: joe@cbmvax.commodore.com (Joe O'Hara - Product Assurance)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:18:56 GMT
Reply-To: joe@cbmvax.commodore.com (Joe O'Hara - Product Assurance)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1993Jan6.184331.25829@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>James Knowlton (Ace@auilcs0.UUCP) wrote:
>:
>: Gee, if you say so.  Personally - i like a functional computer better than a
>: screenful of niceties.  Let's take windows 3.1 for example.  Looks fine on the
>: outside - is not functional and useful on the inside.
>:
>
>Windows is a hell of a lot more functional for me than AmigaOS until you
>can tell me where I can buy AmigaOS versions of Quicken and FrameMaker.
>What do you know about the inside of Windows anyway?

This thread was about GUI environments, not the choice of applications to
run under them. That's a different subject altogether; although I realize
that it's one of your ongoing criticisms, do you have to inject it into
everything :)

-- 
==========================================================================
  Joe O'Hara                ||      Disclaimer: I didn't say that!
  Commodore Electronics Ltd ||
  Product Assurance         || "I never lie when I have sand in my shoes."
  Systems Evaluation Group  ||             - Geordi LeForge, Star Trek TNG
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: engb@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Ben Eng)
Subject: Real Time OS (was: To VM or not to VM?)
Organization: Jet Penguin Lavatories
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:33:21 GMT

In <1ifkmeINN9pj@uwm.edu> bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:

>In article <C0Fwqu.AAM@rice.edu> abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu (Aaron M. Buhr) writes:
>>     I hope this proves enlightening. :)

>Incredibly.  Go out, buy GigaMem, use it.  VM has no place in a
>real-time operating system.

The real-timeliness of AmigaOS is definitely not one of its finer
virtues. On the lower level of device drivers and such the real
time scheduler works well.  In ordinary everyday applications the
RT scheduler it actually a nuisance if you have more than one
CPU-bound process.  Having a RT scheduler is not as big a deal
as everyone makes it out to be.  Especially when it comes to this
discussion on VM.

Personally I would like to see a distinction between processes/tasks
that require RT scheduling and processes/tasks that would run better
using other scheduling schemes (longer [infinite?]/shorter time
quanta; or instead of priorities, have a scheduling criterion such
as "this process wants at least 50% of the CPU time").  The
strictness of RT scheduling does not make me a happier user when
I have more than one CPU-bound application.  Priorities will only
allow me to schedule the applications to divide up the CPU equally
or to say one will finish before the others get a chance to run.  A
"better" (whatever that word means) scheme would allow me to divide
up the CPU as I really want.  Right now the choices are extremely
limited by the implementation of the scheduler.

Solaris 2.1 offers you VM and a RT scheduler.  Of course processes
running under the RT scheduler (which runs at the same time as the
conventional scheduler and the batch scheduler and any other
schedulers you have loaded) don't use VM.  So VM and RT are not
mutually exclusive as far as the entire OS is concerned---they
may be mutually exclusive as far as the address space of the
RT processes goes... but even that may change one day when someone
discovers how to perform real time swapping.  :-)  Anyway, using
nice levels and your choice of scheduler (and ideally, root user
privs :-) you can tune your CPU-bound processes to practically
whatever proportion of CPU usage you need.

>GigaMem works, and more importantly, you can limit it to
>specific tasks.

That is definitely a huge step in an interesting direction---not
necessarily the right one, but it will certainly influence how
the Amiga is used by some people.  At least it is a proof of
concept so that Commodore can take notice.  With a real-live
product on the market, users have ammunition to throw at
Commodore to show them how useful it is---it'll probably influence
them a lot more to make it an integral part of the OS than any
silly comp.sys.amiga.advocacy argument ever will.

[So when is the Amiga going to have user installable schedulers? :-]

Ben
-- 
e-mail: engb@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca or ben@jetpen.gts.org (Ben Eng)
UofT EngSci 9T2                   ``We are all masochists here.''
Home: (416)-979-8761, (416)-979-7885
From: mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us (MARK BROWN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Reply-To: mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us
X-Software: Legend (216-825-2747) UUCPShell v4.9/med20Dec92
X-Disclaimer: Opinions of users do not necessarily reflect those of managment
Date: 11 Jan 93 13:03:10 EST
Organization: The Legend BBS Public Access (216)825-2747

Sorry, I would NEVER touch the 2091 Scsi controller. Any compatibilty 
problems that exist on the Amiga are Not from Hard Ware conflicts, 
it's from Faulty programing. It isn't C= fault if something breaks 
under 2.0, C= postponed it long enough just to help save a companys 
butt(by making sure the software would work). On the IBM clones, I 
have had the 1st hand Experience of Seeing Properly Written 
Software(in this case Auto Cad 9) not run on 3 different machines 
becuase there are no Hard ware standards to speak of. I guess I will 
post what happend, since some will say "Duh, were's your proof":
   on one machine, the Bios was contained in a VSLI chip, to run Auto 
Cad, the chip had to be removed and the bios done some other way(I 
didn't bother to figure it out , I took the Machine back). on the 
other 2 machines it was Either the Video controller(Paradise on both 
systems) fighting with the HD controller or Vise Versa(I didn
't bother with either machines, just took them back).
     Mark

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:14:12 GMT

In <C0qDzq.EAy@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>   BTW, would the ADPro/DPaint combination include any support for EPSF
>images?  Adobe PhotoShop includes a limited PostScript interpreter for 
>visualizing EPSF files.

A postscript interpreter that can interpret EPSF files can't really be
called limited. Not more than a handful of constructions are forbidden
in EPSF compared to generic Postscript. It is more like using precomputed
bitmaps of the images that are an option for EPSF that are used by
Photoshop. The Postscript printer then will really interpret the program
to get good results.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: jpelkone@vipunen.hut.fi (Janne R M Pelkonen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Date: 10 Jan 93 18:16:20 GMT
Reply-To: jpelkone@vipunen.hut.fi (Janne R M Pelkonen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <C0n57o.GDs@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>Give me a bfeak.  Let's not forget who wrote OS/2.  IBM.  THEY invented
>REXX.  THEY were multitasking before you were born.  So what in OS/2
	
	THEY also invented IBM PC. THEY were singletasking before Amiga
	was born, and most of THEM still are :)
	BTW, REXX is from mainframe world, right? Its pretty far from
	microcomputers, which are the subject here.

	- Janne
-- 
* Janne Pelkonen	*   Helsinki	* "With the day came the	*
* JMT 7C 352		*  University	*  resolution"	 		*
* 02150 Espoo		*      of	*  Uriah Heep: July Morning	*
* FINLAND		*  Technology	*				*
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:00:47 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
:
: >On the other hand, you couldn't have been running 3.0, because you insisted
: >that FastDisk was turned on, and 3.0 did not have FastDisk.  So which is it,
: >Greg?
:
: Listen.  Whichever version of Windows allows you to turn off Protected
: mode is the version I was running.  I WAS relatively sure that it was
: running FastDisk or something of the kind, so (shrug) whatever.  You
: know a LOT more about windows and the various version than I do in
: this case.
:

If you turned off Protected Mode, you were running 3.0, WITHOUT FastDisk.
This explains why the machine crashed when you allegedly zeroed out the
DOS kernel -- Windows was still trying to use DOS for disk access.

: Greg
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 09:31:11 GMT

>  IF you folks haven't figured it out- this is the way to fight someone:
>IGNORE IT. This is the evangelical way of defeating an enemy. When you
>ignore it or reap praise on it, you startle it and confuse it and they
>don't know how to attack it. By ignoring it, you don't even give the enemy
>a chance at the open battlefield, effectively shutting them up. This is why
>Apple doesn't even consider Commodore a problem, also probably because the
>products being released from Apple in 1993 and 1994 will shut Commodore
>down in a few years.

Few Amiga users move to Macs, most move to clones when they abandon
ship.  The Mac GUI is constricting and inflexible.
From: ronnie@lysator.liu.se (Ronnie Sahlberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:30:35 GMT
Organization: Lysator ACC at Linkoping University

Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines) writes:

>In a message dated Tue  5 Jan 93 13:41, Das9674@ucs.usl.edu (stephenson Dan
>wrote:

>>2) Can Amigas take things like 20" monitors with video cards that permit
>very
>>   large graphics modes (like 1200-or-so pixels square)?

> DD> Ya got me.  Amigas do seem to have weird modes, don't they?  You
> DD> know, the ol' 1280X400 or somesuch mode.  Gack!                     

>Yup, they can indeed take all sorts of monitors, video cards, etc.  If
>you're REALLY into graphics power on the Amiga, go out and by a VIVID 24
>bit card with 4 co-processers.  The manufacture says it is faster than a
>$200,000 Silicon Graphics Workstation. Wheeeeeeeeeee!

Be real.
Just how much use is that kind of hardware on the amiga for the regular user ?
Since we do not have DIG on our machines yet (when will we ?) that kind of
hardware is totally useless and worthless to an average user.
What software runs on that card ?
And SGI machines doesnt cost like $200.000 any more, maybe their the 8processor
hypercube, but for that kind of money you could buy A LOT of workstations.
The new SGI Iris Indigo R4000 can be yours for only $12,485 (list price).
With discount for buying many, I guess you could get something like 30-40
machines with $200.000 . And NO I think no graphics card on the amiga
(or any other computer) outruns 30-40 IRISes. I.e. BS.

If you want resolution like 1200 square, you have not much choise than to buy
a 486 (really cheap now). Then get a S3 928 graphics card and you have faster
graphics than you thought were possible without buying a SGI box.
(and by a fraction of the price of the SGIbox)
And guess what. Every program you want to run will work with your graphics 
card.

>-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

>* IF replying by MAIL, please reply to the addresses listed below...
>--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
>/_/  \  DreamStates BBS                    or: dream!Ray_Hines@ufl.edu
>\ \  /   1-904-331-4317                  UUCP: uflorida!dream!Ray_Hines
> \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!

ronnie s ronnie@lysator.liu.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 13 Jan 93 05:41:20 GMT

Aric.Caley@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:

>I  mean  really,  it's  not  THAT  much harder to click the icon and select
>format.

  Can anyone come up with a good reason why it should be harder? 
You have the floppy in the drive; the OS can't read it. Therefore you can't
display the disk's names, you can't open it, you can't get a file off it.
In fact, you can't do anything EXCEPT format it. 

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
"...there is only one thing worse than having marketing people on a project,
 and that is having no marketing people on a project."  - Larry Tesler.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy