HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NRA/SAF "MLDA" Phone Service
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:57 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Sep8.222633.28112@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

}On a totally unrelated note: why doesn't the NRA have tax exempt status?
}Aren't they a non-profit organization?

Non-profit != tax exempt.  The NRA isn't a charitable organization, which
is the usual requirement for tax exemption.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:11 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


	"Winchester Black Talon ammunition may be the most significant
advance in commercial ammunition since the hollowpoint" That is a
direct quote from Dr. Martin L. Fackler (in a telephone conversation
on September 4, 1992). A couple of years ago it was observed in the
Army's Wound Ballistics Lab that the Olin SuperMatch (147-gr. subsonic
JHP) bullets demonstrated certain significant characteristics,
especially with regard to how the jacket behaved. Winchester personnel
visiting the lab were shown the results of tests and learned the
potential of such jacket performance, and returned to their factory
with some interesting ideas. The Black Talon rounds are in large part
based on the information provided by Dr. Fackler.
	Personally, I can carry whatever I like in my primary and
backup pistols, as can my partner in her's. Manufacturers send me
ammunition for free, sometimes unsolicited. I now carry Black Talon in
my .40-caliber primary and my 9 mm backup, as does my partner in her
9mm primary.
-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Eldorado Starfire
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:41:33 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I just got the info from PMC/Eldorado on their Starfire ammo:

cal	weight	Vel(fps)
------------------------
9mm	115	1167
38sp+p	125	1050
357	150	1234
44mag	240	1300
45ACP	185	 903
10mm	180	 950
40SW	180	 985

No barrel lengths are listed. 

For comparison, the Black talon [thanks to h. schaffer for the data]

Cal.  bull wt  MV  50 yds  ME  50 yds  Barrel Lgth
9mm     147   990   945   320   292       4"
40S&W   180   990   938   392   352       4"
10mm    200   990   941   435   394       5"
45ACP   230   850   814   369   338       5"

If anyone sees a Ballistic Gelatin test on either of these rounds,
please post to the net! 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: JEFFD@elmer.hls.com (Dempsey, Jeff)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Final Chapter (lost Glock)
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:22:39 GMT



	I did it, I replaced the airlines lost model 21 with a Glock model 22. 
I realize the .45 has a long history and will not perish any time soon, but I
worked a great deal that was hard to pass.  A recent article in Guns magazine
clinched it.  The article was written by Mas Ayoob, and he endorses the .40S&W.
To finish this story I will tell what the outcome from the airlines was.

	I received a notice from another airlines that they were holding my
bag.  I became a bit too excited and thought my pistol was indeed just lost. 
NOT!!!  The bag was returned to me empty and with a bag tag that had sent the
bag to Austria.  If this is not an indication of baggage handlers involvement I
have swamp land in San Jose for sale cheap.

	Anyway, the day after the bag was returned to me I received the check
from the airlines that I had flown on.  I was in the shop yesterday and found
they were holding a model 22 for another gentleman but he had not returned to
purchase it, now he cannot.  The Santa Clara county Sheriffs have chosen the
.40 and the CHP chose it last year, I do not think it will go by the wayside.

	The airlines were faster in settling when they found that I had filed a
report with the San Jose Police.  Normally they receive your claim paperwork
and then continue to search for another 14 days, but they cut that to 7 days
when I informed them of the report.  If this information is of help to anyone I
am glad to share it.

	Jeffd@HLS.com
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:32 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In <9209072159.AA23648@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:

#What's most important is the conditions under which you fire: if your
#life is in immediate danger and there is no other way to stay alive 
#and/or remain physically unharmed, you'll probably be ok (after some
#hassles) in almost all jurisdictions.  

	What you assert *should* be correct, but one would be unwise
to rely entirely on fortune. In many jurisdictions what the statutes
permit/proscribe may take a back seat to some prosecutor's personal
bias or pressures brought to bear upon the case.

#In some jurisdictions you choice of ammo will make a difference (ie:
#places where justification does not provide civil immunity).  In
#some situations (ie: borderline justified) the type of ammo you use
#may also be important.  

	There is no guarantee of absolute civil immunity provided it
was a justified shooting. There are too many variables which can, and
often do, arise to be certain. Just because one resides in a state
where the laws seem more favorable to such things, getting smug about
immunity is foolhearty. Also, the issue of justification is separate
from other issues, e.g., type of ammunition used, whether or not the
gun was legally carried, etc.


#And for god's sake don't screaming across the net how the 
#DA WILL paint you as a wanna-be hero: this attitude is 
#probably the exception (ie: big cities are more likely to
#have this problem).  "The DA *MAY* paint you as a vigilante
#or a plain old murderer looking for an excuse," is a lot
#more plausible, less likely to induce flames and far more
#accurate when dealing with the entire *world* (not just the
#city *you* live in).  

	In some places, such as California, it is quite possible and,
in some jurisdictions even probable, that a prosecutor will attempt to
portray you as a vigilante or worse. I see cases frequently where
law-abiding citizens are so accused when there was no law broken in
the first place. That doesn't insulate them from prosecution and all
that comes with it.



-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713

Xref: sparky rec.guns:12882 talk.politics.guns:20859
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: ANTI-GUN SCHOOL ZONES
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:12 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Most of you are probably aware of the "Gun-free" (Bill-of-Rights-free) 
School Zone Act of 1990, which forbids you to possess a firearm
within 1,000 feet of a school on public property unless you hold a state
license, but are you aware that even WITH a state license, it is illegal
for you to fire your gun--even in cases of self-defense!?!  

  "Guns are pretty robust--their primary enemies are rust and politicians."
 
[MODERATOR:  I'll take this as an informational post, for those of you
in MA, with the intent to redirect followup to t.p.g.]
From: dons@eunice.bv.tek.com (don schaefer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: lock, stock & barrel
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:23 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.


A couple of weeks ago I was looking for a 4 cavity bullet mould.  I 
started calling around to see what I could find.  Lyman was willing
to sell the mould at full retail, which was a little more than I 
wanted to spend.  I called a place called "Lock, Stock & Barrel".
There the ones with a logo of a prairie dog blasting a man.  Anyway
I asked what they had for moulds, and they carried SAECO and Lee.
Two days later I had a flyer from them, and I received the SAECO
mould 6 days after I ordered it.  It was really a nice surprize
dealing with a company that had friendly people and fast service.

This is not a paid advertisement, I have no connection with them,
except for being a happy customer.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Baby Eagle??
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:27 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <37pS024h21yK01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark Sechrest) writes:
#
#In some article mbehrens@barqs.amd.com (Mikael Behrens) writes:
##I believe this is the CZ-75 clone that IMI sells.  They advertise it as kind  
##of a "baby" Desert Eagle.  I think it comes as a kit that you can configure to  
##fire both 9mm and .41 Action Express.  They probably also have a version for  
##40 Smith & Wesson now.
#
#No, I don't think so. This gun is really made by Magnum Research, and it
#is really called the Baby Eagle. It was most definately not a kit.

The Baby Eagle sure does look like the Jericho, which I think was made by
IMI.

As for the kit, you could at one time get the Jericho either as 9mm, or
as .41AE, or as a 9mm with an extra .41AE barrel, recoil spring (and
spring guide?).  The latter kit was listing for near $1K in the box,
though.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading dies.  What do you think?
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:17 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <01GOIF322JEA000G9N@AC.DAL.CA> mball@ac.dal.ca writes:
#I would like the council of netwisdom on the subject of
#reloading dies.  Whose are good? Whose are over priced?
#Are the Lee collet dies a good value or a waste of time?
#What about bench rest dies would they require spending
#$150 for a set of dies and a like amount on a Neil Jones
#arbor press?
#My target rifles are not great, Ruger 77-V's, but I want
#to get the most out of them so I'm in the market for new
#reloading dies.

I use and recommend the Bonanza BR dies.  For a 7/8-14 press
they've given me the best results.  It's hard to beat an
arbor press and Wilson or Jones dies if you want the best
ammo.  I've never used the Jones threaded dies, but there's
no reason they won't work well.  Any bullet seater die that
doesn't have a sleeve to align the case neck with the bullet
_before_ the seating process begins is incapable of producing
consistently top notch ammo.  I wonder when the last benchrest
match was won with anything not loaded in hand dies?  I actually
don't find the hand dies to be all that slow, and no lube is
required on the case neck which saves some time.  On my
6PPC I've fired the cases a over twenty times without even
sizing the neck, much less full length sizing.

Toby Bradshaw
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Target materials for armor piercing ammunition?
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:22 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

#I can't think of a source of armor plate - perhaps someone else will
#have a solution?  I'd like some smaller gongs...

Maybe cultivate a "source" in the military -- a bloke in our area did 
this when they were disposing of some old 1950's Saracen armoured cars.  He 
wanted the metal to build into a portable barbeque.   This non-
corrosive steel makes a beaut frying surface........

Keith
From: spf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

#From article <1992Sep11.034514.28621@access.digex.com>, by cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart):
# #Frankly I'm surprised that no one has commented on how foolish and
# #dangerous it was to fire that "warning" shot in an urban neighborhood.
# #If I'd been in charge of that department, my friend would be driving
# #a desk at best. As it was, he was lucky and the shot didn't hit anyone
# #and he got away with it.
 
# That is a good question; where do you put a 
# warning shot if you want to fire one? 

In our department, warning shots are prohibited, and would probably be
viewed as a failed attempt to use deadly force; thus, if you shoot, you'd
better be in a deadly force situation.  One of the criteria for discharging
a firearm in a deadly force situation is that the officer reasonably believes
that her or his actions do not pose a danger to innocent persons.

In my view, warning shots are at least as bankrupt a concept as shooting to
wound (or kill) rather than to stop.  The authorized way to warn a suspect
in New Jersey is "Police - Don't Move!".  Having issued this warning* to a
suspect in a deadly force situation, the officer is then free to use
judgement about what actions on the subject's part constitute a justification
to shoot.  Remember that "Garner vs. Tenn" prohibits the use of deadly
force to stop a fleeing felon without certain mitigating circumstances
(which don't appear to exist in the example which started this thread). 

So, I would conclude that this shooting was unjustified, and that at least
in some jurisdictions the officer could be charged with attempted murder.
(I don't claim that such charges SHOULD be filed, only that the officer has
opened himself up to the risk of such charges.)

Steve

* In some situations, such a verbal warning need not be issued, such as
when doing so would increase the danger to the officer or a third party.
From: U16244%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Baby Eagle??
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:40 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

Actually, the Baby Eagle strikes me as being just another name for the
941 Jericho.  They look absolutely identical (like baby Desert Eagles) and
are pretty appealing in that they have the slide mounted hammer drop safeties
that are ingrained on us Beretta users.

BTW, the latest Handgun Tests has come out, and it's a very fun issue.
Apparently, the Beretta 84 gets very high marks in the concealment
department from Phat Phil, as does the 3913 Ladysmith, the Ruger Blackhawk,
and the SIG P228.  However, he did blow the whistle on a .45 caliber Llama,
the Lorcin, the Bryco, and the Walther TPH (!) in .22 LR.  Well, since I
like .25 ACP better in tiny pistols (in full sized rifles and trailguns
I like .22 LRs better) that doesn't phaze me, and Aaron Lipmann states his
.25 TPH is utterly as reliable as the PSP.

Douglas P. Wojtowicz.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 11-87 orange flash upon extraction
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:59 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:


#In article <z+lnbwj.dionj@netcom.com> dionj@netcom.com (Dion Johnson) writes:
##My Remington 11-87 shotgun often (especially when not freshly cleaned)
##throws a disconcerting amount of orange fire out the ejection
##port when I'm shooting.

#Remington ammo seems to generally be weird.
#Their .40S&W centerfire pistol ammo has by far the brightest
#flash of any factory load I've tried (about two dozen by now).

Maybe they use slow powder that is still burning when it comes out?

What about their .45 ACP +P or their 9mm +P, bright?
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Help Cleaning Brass.
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:37 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <9209141612.AA06534@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
# ...  A friend used "Brasso" which can be found in most grocery stores.   ...

  Doesn't Brasso have some ammonia in it?  If so, it should be
avoided as ammonia leads to cracks forming in brass under stress.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: dd908821@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Douglas Deden)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Basics and some safety concerns...
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:46:25 GMT
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

In article <1992Sep5.175455.18587@ke4zv.uucp>, ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu
(Gary Coffman) writes:
# In article <1685313A1B.HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jake Hodgson) writes:
# #   [question about Glock safety mechanisms deleted]
# 
# The Glock is designed to operate "just like a revolver." That is to say,
# pull the trigger, it goes bang. Don't pull the trigger, and it won't
# go bang. That's about as foolproof as you can make a gun. The little
# trigger inside the trigger operates a firing pin block that prevents
# the gun from firing, even if dropped from a great height, if not depressed.
# This is similar in principle to the firing pin blocks on modern revolvers.
# Glocks are partially double action only since the striker is not fully
# cocked until you pull the trigger.  If you aren't scared of a DA revolver, 
# there's no reason to fear the Glock safety system. Like a revolver, it's
# simplicity of operation makes it ideal for use in stress situations.
# All you have to remember is round in chamber, pull trigger.
# 
# Gary

Not meaning to pick nits, but the little "trigger inside the trigger"
only prevents the trigger from moving back without the "little trigger"
being depressed first, and is not directly related to the firing pin block.

It is related indirectly of course, because if the "little trigger"
isn't depressed, the trigger can't be depressed, and the firing pin
block stays in place.  It is the trigger movement itself that displaces
the firing pin block.  

It's all academic however, because the result of the safeties is, as
Gary says, 'pull the trigger, it goes bang.  Don't pull the trigger, and
it won't go bang."

All in all, a great gun.



---- Doug Deden ------ dd908821@longs.lance.ColoState.Edu ---------
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Baby Eagle
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:47 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:

#Speaking of which, I've never heard any vital statistics on the .41AE round.
#What are its bullet diameter, weight, and velocity range?  Does it share case
#head dimensions with another round?


Bullets used are those for the .41 mag: .410 in diameter.  The round
is similar to the 10mm, but recent factory loads seem to be closer the 
.40 S&W.  I've read of chronyed 210 gr at ~990 fps for factory 
loads, 170 gr at ~1100, and heard claims of 170 gr at 1200 fps + from 
handloaders.  CCI loads it now, at 180 gr at 1000 fps, just like their
.40.  They should have done it 170 gr at 1155, I thought.

It seems about as long as a .40, but wider of course, and thicker brass.
The rim is the same as 9mm (rebated, like the 9x18 Ultra), so a conversion
simply means another mag, another barrel, and another recoil spring.

It's marketing point when it came out was "Big bore punch in a 9mm
sized package".

I thought it was a great idea when it came out, but I guess nowdays,
with a similar concept available in the .40, most people just
say "why bother".   10mm and .40 brass is all over the place, but I
never see .41.  Too bad.  Otherwise I would consider it a decent option.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:23 GMT
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.

In article <1992Sep11.034514.28621@access.digex.com> cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:

[snip]

#
#That is a good question; where do you put a 
#warning shot if you want to fire one?  Figure 
#that you have to keep your eye on the perp all
#of the time, and you want to have the gun in 
#some position where you can get it back on the 
#perp quickly...  Yeah, I know, put the warning 
#shot into the perp!  Somehow this doesnt seem 
#like the right answer, at least not in a court
#of law.

My dad was a guard (Holmes Electric Protection) in New York City, and in fact
in Harlem, in the '40's and '50's and he carried a .38 (Colt Police Positive
Special).  I remember once when I was allowed to look at his gun, one of the
rounds was painted red.  I asked him why and he told me that it was a blank
and was red so you could line it up for the first shot - a warning shot.  That
was company policy at the time I guess.

I still don't know if that was a good idea or not.  Is it better to have a
round you can't hurt anyone with as a warning shot and deprive yourself of a
shot or better to have six 'good' rounds?  I don't think they had speed
loaders in those days either.  I don't believe he ever fired a round on the
job and he ain't around anymore so I can't ask his opinion.

take care,

Rog
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: REQUEST for Texas handgun law info
Date: 7 Sep 92 21:32:24 GMT
Organization: N/I

In article <9208312057.AA25238@dg-rtp.dg.com> durway@rtp.dg.com writes:
[ ... ]
#in North Carolina now, & the gun is registered here.  Does the law

BTW, Lindsey's Glock is registered in Durham County (w/ the County Clerk).
Persons living in the other 99 counties don't have to register firearms
-- although in Chapel Hill you may no longer transport one on a city bus.
(In case you wondered.  :-)
--------
Now it turns out that Joe Herzenberg, the Chapel Hill City Council member
responsible for the Good Idea (TM) above, has also been expressing his
contempt for the governed by failing to file for and pay his State taxes.