Newsgroups: misc.kids


judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) responds to my post:

>In article <119450003@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com> kperdue@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Karla Perdue) writes:
>>
>>	[sections irrelevant to my follow-up deleted]
>>
>> 2. There are many other aspects of parenting that can have negative
>>    consequences for children.  One that is particularly important to me is
>>    the ability of the parent to communicate acceptance and appreciation for
>>    the child's own feelings and choices, as being right for the child even
>>    if contrary to what the parents would want for themselves.  Too often a
>>    parent can be accepting when a child expresses ideas/feelings that are
>>    the same as the parent's, but show disapproval when the ideas/feelings
>>    are different.  My father was this way in spades!
>>
>>So for me spanking just confirmed the messge of strong disapproval of
>>ideas/feelings different from my parents'; that message was that I was not
>>acceptable as *I* was/wanted to be, but only acceptable if I did what was
>>demanded of me by others.  Thus spanking singificantly contributed to my
>>feeling that my parents did not love and accept ME for who I was but only as
>>the "good girl" image of what they wanted me to be.  It did not by itself
>>cause this feeling but it reinforced the other messages; especially given
>>the most common REASONS for spanking (talking back, refusing to do what they
>>wanted me to).  Together they build a significant problem for me that I am
>>only now solving as an adult and I have a lot of anger at my parents for
>>this.
>
>I think Karla has a very high ideal here, but I'm not sure it is either 
>possible nor desireable to achieve it.  Do we really want to be sending our
>children "I love you just as you are" message to our children when they
>are busy pummeling their siblings, destroying the furniture, running into
>traffic, etc.?  

Of course I would not allow such destructive behavior to continue, but would
try hard NOT to give the child a feeling that THEY were bad and unacceptable
(only their behavior was unacceptable).  I was thinking of more subtle types
of things -- such as wearing lipstick or wanting to be like the other girls
or having my own opinion as to what should happen.  My parents had such hard
images as to what was right and proper and they give no room for me to
experiment and determine what fit ME.  Because my father did not like lipstick,
lipstick was WRONG.  I was not allowed to decide whether *I* liked it or not.
Because it was not proper to "make a scene", my feelings of hurt at being
misunderstood by my teacher were ignored and dismissed.  They made no attempt
to determine what I was good at and enjoyed; I did thing that they thought
were good for me.  (Like playing a violin when I have a tin ear - eek!  They
thought it was important to know music but dismissed dance, which I would have
dearly loved.) My feelings were not understood and not given acknowledgement.
Spanking was only a small part of this; due to what they chose to spank for.

I'll give a hypothetical situation with my daughter to show what I mean: I have
many things to do around the house on Saturday, but my daughter wants a friend
over to play.  I could say something like "Not now, I am too busy.  You have
plenty of toys to play with."  She has doll houses, blocks, drawing supplies,
and many other things to do solo.  But my daughter does not LIKE being solo,
she likes interacting with others.  She gets bored and whinny.  Because I
LIKE her toys (I could spend hours building an elaborate house out of my
American bricks) I do not understand why she is being unpleasant.  I finaly
spank her for being bad and send her to her room.  What is the alternative?
Understand who my daughter really IS and what is best for her.  This would
lead me to one of two actions, both of which accept her for herself:
(1) explain that I understand how she feels; explain why I must get my things
done; agree to time limits for when I can give her attention or can let her
play with friends; if she cannot be pleasant for that time limit, I would then
use logical consequences.  (2) Realize that my things were really not that
urgent and take the extra time to arrange for a friend to come over; while the
two played together, I would have plenty of time to do my things.

The real point is to accept a characteristic, such as being social, as
reasonable even if it is not YOUR characteristic.  Let your child's behavior
show you what is important and fun for them.  Then give the child scope to
explore and understand their characteristics.  How many sons have forced
themselves to play football because their father thought it was so important?
It is almost a stereotype.  There are certain minimally necessary values and
behaviors that are required for social interaction; a child need to understand
that without those they will not succeed.  But too many parents just do not
allow their children to develop values and behaviors that differ from thiers
in a very broad range, much more than is necessary socially or morally.  For
example, it is one thing for a parent to show their child that they will not
conform but it it is another for them to put their child down because the child
wants to conform.  (Shades of an earlier thread -- What do you do if your
daughter wants to dress in pink frilly dresses, but you a staunch feninist?
Maybe you can accept her for herself and not make her the vehicle for
expressing your political ideals.) Just because a parent feel that conformance
is wrong, is that parent sure enough that they are willing to squelch the
child and force the child to become non-conformist?

Unfortunately, spanking gets merged into a total package, along with all
the other ways a parent interacts with a child.  If the total package is
non-accepting of the child's individuality, spanking exacerbates this.  It
is just one more thing that tells the child that they are not to trust themself
and their own feelings since authority has decreed that they are wrong.  If
the total package is basicaly accepting, spanking will probably have little
affect and could even in the sort-term seem beneficial.

>Clearly the idea is that we must separate the child from the child's behavior
>and let the child know that it is her behavior, not her being, that is in
>question here.  But I don't think that sending positive message about who
>you are is appropriate at these times in the same way that negative message
>about your behavior is.  The positive messages must come at times when your
>child really is being "a good girl".  

The problem is when behavior is disciplined in terms of "you are a bad girl".
The negative messages need to reference the BEHAVIOR and not the child's
person.

>If you have strong feelings and values and your child chooses to adopt behavior
>that violates these feelings, will you really be able to say, "Hey, I really
>love you for your independent spirit?"  For example:  let's say that your
>rebellious peer following 13 YO decides to join a white supremecist group.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Think about it for a moment.  How can you show that you detest everything
>your 13 YO is currently standing for while still loving her?  I imagine this
>is impossible.  Because no way that you attack her beliefs will be interpreted
>by her as an attack of anything but herself.  

I am not thinking of things this extreme.  What if your 13 YO wants to
wear lipstick and you feel only sluts wear lipstick?  What if your 13 YO
wants to dress and act like the other 13 YOs (I am talking in general, not
specifics like $100 nikes) and you abhore anything that smacks of conforming?
What you can do is:

  - Tell your child what your values are.

  - Explain WHY you support those values.  If your reasons are good enough,
    they can stand on their own merit; you do not have to BEAT them into the
    child.

  - Live by those values - be self-consistent.

  - Let your child decide whether to incorporate those values into themself.
    After all, they WILL do this whether you "let" them or not.  The difference
    is whether they do it with anger and resentment at your rejection or with
    assurance of a continued relationship.

My father's values were so divergent from the "norm" that I had an unconscious
and unacknowledged choice:

  - Fit into his values and feel unattractive and unlovable to any other man,
or
  - Conform my values to the "norm" and loose his acceptance.

It is a choice no child should have to make.

>I believe that part of parenting involves disapproval of our children when
>they behave in disapproved of ways.  Their self esteem must come from a firm
>foundation of support and I believe that must be laid in the early years
>when we get really tired of putting our lives "on hold" for our children.  But
>I also believe if we take the time THEN to establish self esteem and a feeling
>of love and acceptance, it will weather the turbulence of the years that may
>come when you, as a parent, simply cannot approve of your child's choices.
>
>>                                           .....  Also, I hope that I can
>>help my daughter grow without developing the anger that I have toward my
>>parents.
>>
>
>Never developing that anger?  I think that is not only unreasonable, but
>unhealthy.  Because this anger is a very important catalyst for the child
>to develop the independence needed to separate.  It is FAR easier to
>separate from someone when you are angry with them than when you love them
>dearly.

But my anger persists to this day and involves rejecting my parents as I
felt they rejected ME (the "real" me that I am becoming).  There will be
some anger there, but I hope not a systemic anger and rejection of our
relationship.

>What I hope for my children is that I am able to instill in them the pattern
>of forgiveness so their anger will be momentary and not destroy our relationship
>as they reach adulthood.  I hope one day that they can say as I have been
>able to with my Mom, "Wow, she wasn't perfect, but she did the best she could
>under the circumstances.  I hope I can do as well."

I agree with you here.

>We need our children to learn to forgive us for not being perfect just as we
>are able to forgive them.  And I see a whole lot of people on this net who
>need to learn to forgive their parents just as they hope their children will
>forgive them.  
>
>Have those of you who still carry a grudge against your parents for things
>other than abuse or neglect tried to put yourself in their shoes at your
>age?  What was their life like when you were your children's ages?   What
>fears motivated them?  What anger did they feel toward their parents?  What
>did the world FEEL like then.  I highly recommend it as an excersise in
>perspective.
>
You are right.  I need to think on this and don't have an immediate response.
My anger covers up a lot of hurt.  I so want to connect with others and they
ill-equiped me to do so.  Also as an adult I still cannot figure out how.
Thus I still hurt and tend to blame it on them.

Karla Perdue                 The opinions expressed are strictly my
Mountain View, CA            own and not those of Hewlett-Packard.

Newsgroups: misc.kids