HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig)
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 13:36:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.234325.10186@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:
>ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) writes:
>: In article <4687@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>: >	Guess I underestimated the idiocy of Ohians, eh? No one can tell
>: >the difference between Cincinnati and Cleveland, you know. 
>: 
>: Ooohhh, them's fightin' words in the heartland.  That's like saying to a dwarf
>: in one of those other systems "never could tell you apart from them elf
>: people". 
>
>	I'll say it myself. _I_ can't tell the difference between
>Cincinnati and Cleveland myself. Want to fight?
>
>The Wigs of Oz,
>Aaron Wigley		Australia.

Well, coming from Oz, you can be excused, as you've never had the chance to
compare the cities.  Thus, I'll compare them for you in two lines.

In Cincinnati, Riverfest is held on and around it's river (the Ohio) every 
year, a festival involving fun, food, and _airborne_ fireworks.

In Cleveland, the only fireworks on its river (the Cuyahoga) happened when the
scum on the river's surface caught on fire. 

Of course, some would claim that the famous river fire was merely a critical
fumble on Cleveland's part, and that it is an example of how such randomness
can cause amazingly stupid things to happen that unbalance the gam... er life.
I would contend that it was merely symptomatic of the generally poor
city-playing abilities of Cleveland.

	Alec
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: VOTE NOW!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:57:23 GMT

In article <14999@umd5.umd.edu> mvw@anywhere.umd.edu (Martin V. Walser) writes:
>In article <batemanc.713805671@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) writes:
>>
>>HAVE YOU BEEN ANNOYED BY LOREN YET?

>   As the keeper of the FAQ, and general rgf.* heirachy answer person, Loren
>is entitled to try to steer conversations toward the appropriate areas in the
>heirarchy just as we are entitled to post noise all over and ignore those
>steerings if we wish.  No need to publicly try to make fun of Loren's efforts
>which are always, at least, polite and meant for the good of rgf.*.  If one
>doesn't agree with Loren's position, one can always press 'n'.

Agreed.  A little etiquette (and judicious silence) goes a long way on
the net.  When flaming folk, do it right, do it by e-mail.  The best
thing about this method is that you can really ream out somebody you 
don't like, while people on the net will still think you're a nice
guy (of course I don't do this  :)  ).  

The frp.* groups are petty full of noise (though not the worst)
because of the vast amount of turnover and the large number of
posters.  Since the split, this has gone up, IMHO, so etiquette
in public is more important than ever.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu



Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Put Up or Shut Up (Dice[less])
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:40:07 GMT

Well, I've played both diceless and dicey :-) games and I enjoyed
both.  However, I lean towards dice.  Diceless campaigns are nice
when the referee is experienced and you just need a one-time adventure
for a social get-together, but I think dice do protect the players
from the capriciousness of the referee.  They give a good solid base
to the game, and allow amazing victories (lucky rolls, etc.) that
are anathema to diceless games.  Basically, diceless games usually
make either the players or the referee (or both) into raging
egomaniacs that will have difficulty playing in a dice game
afterwards (because they deny the influence of fate/fortune).

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:32:28 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA


This probably violates some newsgroup charter or other, but I've got a
suggestion:  let's look at some real examples from the world of sports.  Who
are the fastest of football players?  They are the wide receivers and defensive
backs:  not as big and strong as most other positions, but more agile.
How about in the NBA?  Again, the less strong and more agile players are
faster.

What does this tell us?  There is more evidence for DX belonging in the formula
than ST.


-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer)
Subject: Re: Joys of Dice
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Distribution: World
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:10:40 GMT


Okay all. I have been an avid dice advocate all along. While I have seen,
and even played diceless games before, I must admit that I have never
played AMBER. 
	Some of you out there might remember me; I was the one who wrote
the article about a character trying to climb a wall (from both diced,
and diceless points of view). And I still really feel that diced games
are far better (but I don't want to rehash that can of worms). 
	Anyway, the reason that I am posting is due to the fact that if
I am wrong, I want to know it. And probably the only way to know for 
sure is to check out AMBER. So this is my net.request. I wanna know if
there are any PBEM AMBER games running out there right now that would
be willing to let me in. Don't worry, I won't be looking for holes in
the system, our the GM's abilities. I just wanna see for myself. 
	I will be more than happy to post my feelings on the subject 
on the net after I have played for a couple of weeks. So come on you
AMBER enthusiasts, this is your opportunity to shut up me, and a lot
of other "DICE OR DEATH" GM's.

       _____  _____  _____         _____
      (_____    |    |____  \   /  |____           |\__/\    | | |
      ______)   |    |____   \_/   |____        <___/@ ) \    \|/
						 !!!!!\  /     X
				           ________|  | |______|_
			 	          (\_____!!!!!// ______\_) 
                                                 \____/  /     |
						 __|_|  |      |
					       ((_______|      |
                                                        
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 12 Aug 1992 08:16 EST  

In article <1992Aug11.191927.12824@menudo.uh.edu>,
 white@tree.egr.uh.edu writes...

>     First of all, that's "TEXAN", not southerner.

Sorry.  Didn't notice that you were a foreigner.  Howdy!  (speak to 'em in 
their own language, and they'll appreciate it)

>Who said anything about limp noodles and meat sauce? 
>That's not chili anywhere.  

It is in Cincinnati.  I don't miss a chance to put that place down! ;+)

>we DO have "hot", "spicy" buffalo wings down here.

No you don't.  What you have is a cautious approximation of WINGS.  The 
Basic Set, if it were.  Here, we eat Advanced WINGS only.

                                                  James S. Zakany
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: 21 Aug 92 06:26:24 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <smf-d3+@engin.umich.edu> jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey) writes:
>   Leech (from New Mutants)
>   would clearly have no effect on Iron Man, but in Champs he would.  The
>   definitions you're so proud of limit characters to _exactly_ what those
>   definitions say.

Leech would have Suppress with the limitation "Only on non-physical powers",
or whatever limitation is necessary to get his power not to work against
Iron Man.

>5. To discuss DC, GURPS, Heroes Unlimited, and V&V further, DC is clearly a
>   little unbalanced, but then again they have to deal with Superman.  In
>   Marvel they had to put an extra end on the chart for the Beyonder.  (Note
>   that Champs never, _NEVER_ lets you make an enemy with power like this.)

Sure it does.  You just have to give create the enemy using lots of character
points.  (Actually, you'd just give him the powers and not bother counting
up the points.)
--
I am of course experienced in teaching and have read the writings of Socrates.
    -- Ed Nilges

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey)
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 15:12:53 EDT
Organization: Campus Computing Sites, University of Michigan
Summary: There, I said it.

I have much debated the systems myself.  (I own both, and have played both.)
I find people who like the control of character that Champions gives you,
and I find (and _am_) people who like the freedom that the GM enjoys in
controlling their world, if they're smart.  I've heard comments that Marvel
causes unbalanced campaigns if everyone rolls up characters (like having the
Punisher team up with Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer; while it sells comics,
the Punisher should experience a massive inferiority complex, and so will the
player).

I've heard that people don't appreciate the limiting structure and hideously
labyrinthine point-cost arguments in Champs.  For example, it's literally
near-impossible to run a high-power space campaign (such as the recent Marvel
Operation Galactic Storm or Infinity Quest/Gauntlet/War/Whatever) without
creating characters with about 5,000 points with no disads (or very few).
I tend to agree that Marvel is a much more sensitive system, because it's so
ill-defined.  Definition is limitation.

Giving the GM maximum freedom in what players can and can't do prevents arg-
uments in the future, and lets the GM establish a coherency in the characters
that doesn't violate the premise of the campaign.

I also think Champs discourages anyone but the die-hard Grognard from joining
as a new player.  DC and GURPS don't suffer from this particular aspect, be-
cause they largely let the GM define a power.  I also have a fondness for
Heroes Unlimited from Palladium, since it tends to merge the good aspects of
both Marvel and Champs.

Villains and Vigilantes has less definition than Marvel, and is for those
gaming groups who have a well-defined world they want to create within a
system.  That's another reflection of my problem with Champs:  no real esta-
blished history.  They've tried, and they've got some decent progress with
VIPER and some of the supplements (I particularly enjoy CLOWNS), but if you
look at the points for Mechanon, you get this very incongruous 442-point
"Villain Bonus" that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Champs simply can't
deal well with established characters.

I've divided this into several sections.  When responding, please only quote
those sections you want to discuss.  (And the rabid Champs fans out there
in their ivory mega-processor towers, don't bother quoting when you respond.
We'll recognize the foam.)
-- 
-- Jeff Bailey, jlb@ccs.itd.umich.edu (Open 24 Hours a Day!)
Standard disclaimer - If you wanted U/M's views, you came to the wrong place. 
"The owner of the game deals and plays first." -- Nuclear War/Escalation

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: v131p9t3@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Ninstar Cybermage - Back Again from the Mists!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:16:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <z=g-Kh_@engin.umich.edu>, jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey) writes...
>What further makes this
>kind of design bad is that the way you specify the power actually matters in
>how the power interacts with others.  Dr. Strange uses lots of powers, but
>they're all magic.  Yet Leech, a mutant with the ability to suppress mutant
>powers, has a good chance of Draining Dr. Strange as long as the powers have
>not been expressed _exactly_ right.  

Allow me to explain how difficult this concept is for champions.  In the
above statement, we have the following definition:

Leech - A person with the power to damp mutant powers.

Now we all know this definition:

Dr. Strange - A person who uses magical powers.

These two simple english statements, intrinsic in your explaination of the
problem, are all that is needed to solve the problem.  They are called
Special Effects.  No rules to invoke, no points to spend.  Everything
about the situation as relates to the Champions game is right up there.
The result is:
Leech cannot drain Dr. Strange because Dr. Strange does not use Mutant powers.

And all that is needed is a concept of what both characters can do, not a 
memorization of the rules.

James Shank           	#		v131p9t3@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
AKA: Ninstar Cybermage  #	or	shank@acsu.buffalo.edu
###############################################################################
"Ten thousand years old...He could be trouble." -Vampire Hunter D
"Every night I say a prayer, in the hope that there's a heaven..."-Styx
"How do you make ammends for a god's sins?"-Forgotten Realms
##############################################################################
Sneaky Types,Inc.:Clandestine operations for the common man.
	"Don't call us.  We'll just bill you when it's done."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jackal@keps.kodak.com (Phil Hammar)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. gaming, was Re: Diceless or Senseless?
Organization: Kodak Electronic Printing Systems
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:30:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.232813.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>dice you have craps, diplomacy, or parcheesi (your fave). In fact the
		      ^^^^^^^^^

	Diplomacy, like chess, go, and a number of other board games
where supeior numbers/moves always win, uses no dice.  And it can
achieve a ceraitn level of role-playing that is usually not reached in
other board games.

			Phil


-- 
Philip Hammar				UUCP:...!uunet!ima!munsell!jackal 
Sys. Admin. for KEPS, a wholly owned 	Internet: jackal@keps.kodak.com
subsidiary of E. KODAK Co.		Phone: (508)670-6650
You've entered another dimension; a dimension of heat and flame.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: white@tree.egr.uh.edu (Mitchell White)
Subject: CHILI    LOYD
Keywords: The debate rages on
Reply-To: white@tree.egr.uh.edu
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:37:22 GMT

In article <loydb.08j8@fnordbox.UUCP> loydb@fnordbox.UUCP (Loyd Blankenship)  
writes:
> <sigh> Ever do something you really regret? I regret this thread. I regret
> the wasted bandwidth. I shall go flog myself now, head hung in shame. :-)
> 
> Loyd


     Hey there little buddy! Don't go and do something silly. I, personally,  
can't thank you enough for your original column that got this thing started.  
As someone else pointed out, the flaming here is mild compared with  
elsewhere, and I've gotten a few laughs out of this which is more than I've  
gotten out of the "Which system is best?" debate. Besides, why flog yourself,  
when you can watch the Ohio kids flog each other? 
     MLW
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: u894793@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Timothy D Little)
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 06:01:25 GMT

PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88) writes:

>From what I understand, running speed is a balance of power against mass,
>and long-distance running is a balance of energy required for power against
>endurance.

>Power would seem to indicate ST, which is entirely neglected.

Yes, but ST requires muscle mass, and to complicate the issue, there are two
types of muscle tissue.  One contracts slowly, but has a higher total force.
The other delivers less force, but contracts about 10x faster.

Sprinting requires the fast muscle, and weight-lifting requires the stronger
muscle type.  Someone who can lift 200 kg would make a poor sprinter, since
they have a large amount of slow (and hence mostly useless) muscle to increase
their mass.

I have a typical 'sprinter' body type.  In GURPS, I have a lifting ST of about
8, but I run faster than anyone else I know, -for a short time-.
I am not very fit, hence I assume I have low HT.  My power is almost completely
anaerobic.

>Long term
>endurance would seem to indicate HT, which is already there.  You are right,
>DX has noting to do with it.  Using HT directly in your running speed looks
>like a simple approach solution to figuring in the above dynamics.

DX probably should come in when considering the Running skill, but not in
basic Speed.  DX represents fine body control, which is required for
'tuning' a given running style.

I am ambivalent about using HT in short-distance sprinting, but it should
certainly come in when determining long-distance speeds.

>Therefore, substitute ST for DX.  There is no mention of weight in the formula,
>but I think that this would be getting too detailed.  (Assume ST is already
>proportional to weight, perhaps?)

Your assumption means that ST should make no difference, if you are using
a 'power-to-mass' ratio.  It means that increasing ST also increases mass,
hence no increase in the ratio.

However, for the same power/mass ratio, taller people run faster... and
GURPS links ST directly to height (I'm another anomaly - ST 8 and 6'2" or
187 cm).  Maybe I shouldn't have based my GURPS ST on lifting capability -
I also throw things further than ST 8 would indicate (another fast-muscle
activity).

>How is this in terms of modeling atheletes.  In the Olympics, this year, we
>put forward a football player as a sprinter.  Sure, he was heavy, but hugely
>strong.  He had the same type of acceleration and top speed of most of the
>others.  Don't think he won, but he is proof that you can get Olympic times
>out of sheer strength...

>So, does (ST + HT)/4 do it?  I'm no expert on running, but it does make more
>sense.  Also, it makes ST more worthwhile in the upper-tech games too, and
>DX a little less, which may be a good idea.  

For long distance running, it may well suffice - but for the short sprint,
I'd say probably not.

--
Timothy D Little   a.k.a.   u894793@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
"I'm a Tasmanian." - Yahoo Serious, in the film Young Einstein.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: goodwin@orionsci (Ben Goodwin)
Subject: Re: Put Up or Shut Up (Dice[less])
Reply-To: goodwin@orionsci.UUCP (Ben Goodwin)
Organization: Orion Scientific, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:39:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.214904.58074@cc.usu.edu> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>Sheesh am I tired of this insipid thread (and all it's tedious
>branches). Compared to this, a new SPLIT thread would be 
>FASCINATING.
>
>Please can we have a new thread?

Sure Chad, just start one yourself.  In spite of the minor flames I have 
found this thread extremely interesting.  I appreciate the views of everyone on this thread, even the idiots who don't agree with me. ;-.  I'm going to 
be playing diceless soon, Amber to be exact.  I want to get a list of what 
can go wrong and be prepared to nip it in the bud.

Please don't try to stop a thread just because you don't like it.
Remember, kill files are your friend.

Now if only someone would kill the "Gurps Supers is broken" thread. :)

PS: Boy what a polite post.  I didn't call him a net.monitor or stupid or
    nothing! :)
-- 

-Ben
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 07:22:33 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Ninstar Cybermage writes:
>Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey writes...
>>Dr. Strange uses lots of powers, but they're all magic.  Yet Leech, a 
>>mutant with the ability to suppress mutant powers, has a good chance of 
>>Draining Dr. Strange [if] the powers [are] expressed _exactly_ right.  
>
>Leech - A person with the power to damp mutant powers.
>Dr. Strange - A person who uses magical powers.
>
>These two simple english statements, intrinsic in your explaination of the
>problem, are all that is needed to solve the problem.  They are called
>Special Effects.  No rules to invoke, no points to spend.  Everything
>about the situation as relates to the Champions game is right up there.
>The result is:
>Leech cannot drain Dr. Strange because Dr. Strange does not use Mutant powers.

To further state the point, Leech would be purchased with Drain and one of
the nifty adjustment advantages, either one at a time, or all at once. 
Either of those require the player to state what special effect is affected.
Leech's player replied, "Mutant powers." Alright.

Then Doctor Strange would be another story in building, and when they meet,
the referee will ask the good Doctor's player what special effect he is 
using. The Doctor's player will reply, "Magic." Alright. No go. No way.
No chance. No.

Just *where* are you getting these baseless accusations from? Did you ever
bother to even play it once, or are you merely borrowing someone's book to
try to poke holes in a game you evidently are not even the remotest bit
familiar with?

This is either the second or third round of you trying to prove MSH's 
"superiority" over Hero. I can easily accept that you like it. That's fine.
Each person has their own preferences, and they are not any less than any
other person's. I cannot accept you shooting off your mouth. Are you ever
going to quit?
-- 
Stay away from flying saucers today.
From: dqk412@kepler.unh.edu (David Q Kennard)
Subject: Re: Do U customize games 4 players?
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:43:28 GMT

In article<1992Aug13.134751.58135@cc.usu.edu>sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:

>(it's really hard to realistically have something
>to blow up in every scenario for the demolitions specialist).

There's *always* something to blow up.  :)
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:52:33 GMT

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

>	True, Champs has not released any definitive timeline/history for 
>their game-world like GURPS Supers, MSH, and DC. And IMO, most of the 
>published Champions material is fairly awful - in particular the Enemies 
>books collected from submitted material of vastly different campaigns. 
>Decent works include Challenges for Champions, the 'Classic' collections, 
>Enemies International (3rd Ed), and Wrath of the Horsemen (3rd Ed.). I am 
>not too thrilled with Heroes Unlimited or GURPS Supers game-worlds', either, 
>however. 

Well, one point to remember here is that the timelines and histories
for Marvel and DC are those of the comics.  I don't see any reason
why , if you wanted a really involved background, that you couldn't 
just use Marvel's or DC's history. 

Axly

********************************************************************************
*   Axly      *  "Is Axly tough? Yes. Talented? Yes. Brave? Oh, certainly.     *
* Red Sword   *   He is also erratic, irresponsible, accident-prone, and a     *
*   Targa     *   constant threat to public safety. The trick is to keep him   *
*             *   pointed in the right direction. "                            *
*             *         -Niki                                                  *
********************************************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy