HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hormesis/Homeopathy
Date: 20 Dec 1992 23:59:31 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec17.173125.21260@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM>, kraus@.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dave Kraus) writes:
=>The basis of homeopathy is to find a substance which, in sufficiently large
=>doses, would produce EXACTLY the same symptoms as the disease being treated.
=>Now you're saying that the symptoms should be slightly different. You're
=>stretching the definition of homeopathy far beyond what is reasonable. At this
=>rate, you'll soon include all of non-surgical medicine under the definition.  
=>Why don't you just give up and admit that you're not talking about homeopathy?
=
=My assumption here is that two different irritations may not produce "EXACTLY"
=the same "response from the body" although the outward symptoms may appear
=to be "EXACTLY" the same. I am just pointing out a possibility, not trying
=to convince you that this is true. I do this often and I think that you take
=it to mean that I actually believe something is true.

I see.  Glad to hear that you finally admit to being flat-out liar.  Thanks for
the confession.  Perhaps, having now admitted this failing, you can attempt to
remedy it.  Would that Derek Abbot were so honest.

=My dictionary doesn't have this word. What does "hormesis" mean? I would
=gladly use it if it would more acurately describe homeopathic-like reactions
=at higher dilution strengths.

Hormesis is the idea that exposure to a substance at a level that is at the
very limit of being able to produce clinical symptoms will tend to enhance
the body's defense mechanisms.  However, for hormesis, you need a high enough
dose that it *DOES* produce clinical symptoms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban,alt.atheism,alt.feminism
From: rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Robert Lewis)
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and Repression (was Ritual Abuse Taskforce....)
Keywords: Interzone
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:55:57 GMT

I believe that I have heard that most/all purported cases of satanic
ritual have been 'discovered' via hypnosis and that the are memories
which are claimed to have been repressed due to the supposedly horrific
nature of the events.  Two questions:

1)  Is there any 'objective' evidence for the repression of horrific
memories?  I wonder about this because it seems that only certain sorts
of events (like ritual abuse) come up in the context of such repression
whereas others, such as having been in a concentration camp (which
surely is at least as horrific) never do.  The interesting aspect of the
concentration camp example is that there is fairly reliable evidence
which could be used (prison camp records) to confirm that the events
took place (or at least that the individual was there), something which
seems to be lacking in the realm of ritual abuse.

2)  Assuming that there is the repression of memory (or even just that
we are dealing with the normal process of forgetting) is there any 
evidence that hypnosis can somehow help in 'retreiving' such memories.
If I remember correctly from my social-psychology courses, hypnosis has
proved rather unsucessful in helping people remember things like events
surrounding things like crimes.  Also, a quite unsystematic observation,
those therapists who employ hypnosis always seem to find that what their
patients have forgotten is exactly what the therapists present
speciality is, e.g., Freudians always find repressed sexual desires,
ritual abuse councilors always find ritual abuse, etc.


Robert M. Lewis			rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca
Department of Sociology
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Meteors hit the earth? was (Re: AIDS and all that jazz)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 03:41:34 GMT

In article <Bz3tI4.ILJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> battin@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec7.144114.25539@netcom.com>, 
>payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes...
>
>>In article <Byvn1G.3qu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> 
>>battin@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes:
>
>>[... --- ...]
>> 
>>>>No, they get vaporized by air friction in the upper atmosphere. The physical
>>>>meteor ceases to exist. 
>>>
>>>Geez, didn't you see the smiley?
>>>
>>>And anyhow, since when does "vaporizing" something cause it to "cease 
>>>to exist"?
>> 
>>Are you serious? If you were to be vaporized, you would cease to exist.
>>If your car were vaporized, it would cease to exist. 
>> 
>>[opps :^]
>> 
>>>-Gene
>> 
>>Rich
>
>So, you are denying that microscopic particles which were once meteors fall
>in or with the rain and "hit" the earth,your roof, etc., because they were 
>"vaporized" and now cease to exist.  
>Ok.
>Guess I was told wrong.

I only deny that the "microscopic particles which were once meteors" are 
still the meteor. If you were drawn and quartered, your constituient
parts would still exist, but you would not. Actually in this case you
would not exist even if the parts were put back together. Not all state
changes are reversable.

This is getting silly, you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding 
something very simple. I have no further interest in following this
to whatever depths accessable from this point.
 
>> 
>>payner@netcom.com
>> 
>Gene


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban,alt.atheism,alt.feminism
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and Repression (was Ritual Abuse Taskforce....)
Keywords: Interzone
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:44:23 GMT

In article <rlewis.724193757@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Robert Lewis) writes:
>
>1)  Is there any 'objective' evidence for the repression of horrific
>memories?  I wonder about this because it seems that only certain sorts
>of events (like ritual abuse) come up in the context of such repression
>whereas others, such as having been in a concentration camp (which
>surely is at least as horrific) never do. 

Many therapists express a belief in "hidden memories," but the evidence
supporting this is very thin. A new book is of interest:

   Hidden Memories

   Voices and Visions from Within

   By. Dr. Robert A. Baker

   Alien abductions, satanic kidnappings, the channeling of spirits,
   and the recall of past lives are not "supernatural" but examples of
   cryptamnesia - hidden memories - of experiences that originally make
   little conscious impression but were filed away in the brain and 
   later suddenly remembered in altered form. Baker demonstrates how
   the boundaries of what can be termed normal but aberrant behavior
   can be confused by therapists suceptible to fringe beliefs. He
   explains how delusions and illusions affect behavior and discusses
   the role that the media has played in promoting the growth of
   superstition.
   Robert A Baker has taught psychology at MIT, Stanford University, 
   and the University of Kentucky.

   Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY, 1992. 375pp. ISBN 0-87975-684-5  $27.95
   800-421-0351.
>
>2)  Assuming that there is the repression of memory (or even just that
>we are dealing with the normal process of forgetting) is there any 
>evidence that hypnosis can somehow help in 'retreiving' such memories.

   Another book by Baker, also from Prometheus (1991):

   They Call it Hypnosis

   Voted "Oustanding Academic Book for 1991" - Choice

   In this definitive study Baker traces the history and current status
   of the hypnotic concept, explaining what hypnosis is and is not, 
   what it can and cannot accomplish, as well as its uses, misuses, and
   abuses.

   313 pages - ISBN 0-87975-576-8  $23.93.
-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: hathaway@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 05:12:42 GMT

In article <1gob0eINNik@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
>>Before the Bible-thumpers respond, repeat their mantra after me (preferably
>>with as much whining as possible):
> ....
>>definitely from Christian to Christian.  These jackasses could've given Reagan
>>lessons in slipperiness.
> 

As if they were anointed with Crisco or other such slippery goo?  (for readers 
in other markets, Crisco is a brand name for cooking lard - very slippery 
as one would require for lubricating something hard to insert - or swallow) 
I find it cute that the sexual connotation of christening is so avoided....
I wonder what they are so afraid of ... 

WHH
From: antennae@gn.apc.org
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:42:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Dec8.173215.2718@cnsvax.uwec:931012123:gn:1507900002:000:81
Nf-From: gn.UUCP!antennae    Dec 11 17:42:00 1992





                  silly sod

         

      

                      - indra
From: pearl@brahms.udel.edu (Jennifer L Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:55:50 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <1992Dec3.210720.9159@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM> kraus@cheers.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dave Kraus) writes:
>In article <Byp197.A2J@ecf.toronto.edu> rosen@ecf.toronto.edu (ROSEN Dan) writes:
>
>Arnica Montana is a substance gleened from a certain flower. When it is rubbed
>on bruises, sprains, muscle pulls, etc ( or taken in pill form), actually
>reduces pain and decreases the time needed to heal the injury. I've actually
>experienced its benefits.
>
>
When I was living in Germay this past summer, I got tonsilitis in the Black
Forest (south of Germany, not too far from the health spa Baden-Baden).  The
people I was staying with believed in using doctors which fall into the
classification Naturheilverfahren (literally, proceedure of natural healing).
He gave me something called Arnica drops which was a liquid taken interally.
I was supposed to take 10 drops every half hour, even though the directions
said to take 10 drops three times a day (a bit of a difference, but I was 
pretty sick - the doctor said I was the worst of the past 30 or so cases he
had seen).  I'm not really sure what this was other than the essence of some
plant, but I do know that within about 2 hours I could swallow again (which
is something I hadn't been able to do in quite a few days) and than my fever
decreased from 39.5 (~103 F) to 36.1 (~96.7 F) in about the same amount of
time.  I also got some sort of enzyme tablet (Phlogenzyme?) and an injection
(with a needle) of the essence of some plant called a Sonnenhutwurtzel (I 
never could find an English translation) - so the dramatic reduction in fever
may have been from one of those.  In the end, however, I did get penicillin
(they really don't like to use antibiotics, and only do so when ABSOLUTELY
necessary, but I guess I was pretty extreme) which reduced the swelling and
got rid of all the other gorey symptoms of tonsilities (white stuff oozing/
growing from one's tonsils, etc.) so the treatment was not totally dependent
on natural substances.  Anyhow, the point is that this stuff
did make me feel better, and I think some of it may have been what you are
talking about for sore muscles.   

jenny
From: s0rah@exnet.co.uk (R A Hollands)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:31:20 GMT
Organization: ExNet Systems Ltd Public Access News, London, UK


I'd like to share a couple of quotations with you all.

From the Key of Immediate Enlightenment by Ching Hai Wu Shang Shih (The
Supreme Master Ching Hai):

		"The level of a great enlightened Master is not
		possible to be judged by our limited mortal
		understanding.  Nor can it be described through human
		language."

(This is followed by 77 pages in English on how to be a Divine Master).

From Henry the Fourth part one by William Shakespear:

Act 3, Scene 1.

Glendower: 	" ... at my nativity
		The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
		Of burning cressets; and at my birth
		The frame and huge foundation of the earth
		Shaked like a coward." 

Hotspur:   	"Why, so it would have done at the same season if your
		mother's cat had kittened, though yourself had never
		been born."


Richard
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Summary: Homeopathy and Chiropractic
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:41:42 GMT

In article <6668@tuegate.tue.nl>, wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys) writes:
> In article <1992Dec10.172102.6968@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM> kraus@cheers.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dave Kraus) writes:
> >
> >Is it possible that homeopathic remedies cause the body to react to protect
> >itself against the remedy, and in doing so actually attack the problem
> >being remedied? Sounds plausible to me. I'm not saying I'm totally sold
> >on the idea. I'm just saying I'm willing to give it a try.
> 
> This is what homeopaths claim, but there isn't a shred of evidence for
> it.  Moreover, the homeopaths claim that the original "irritant" must be
> similar, not equal.  And by "similar" they mean that also very many
> psychological and subjective symptoms should be exactly the same  as in
> the case of decent adult citizens that have been given the undiluted 
> stuff in the previous century.  Also, the homeopathic is supposed to 
> work only when diluted by a factor 10^30 or so.
> No way this could be called plausible. It's just a magical system,
> analogous to astrology.
> 
> JWN


What bothers me about Homeopathy (based on my limited contact with
it - see below) is not that they differ on how to treat a disease,
but that they seem to deny that there ARE diseases.

My chiropractor has a set of books in his waiting room - all 
anti-MDs, some of which were published by Homeopathic insitutes
and such.  According to the parts I've skimmed while waiting:

  1)  There is no such thing as polio (except what you get from the
      polio vaccine)

  2)  There is no such thing as rabies (just dogs in a bad mood)

  3)  There was no such thing as cancer before vaccination and
      unvaccinated people can't get cancer.

  4)  There is no such thing as smallpox - just bad food.  This
      author claimed that the vast loss of life among American
      Indians after discovery were caused by adopting European
      food.  He claims this even while saying that entire tribes
      of indians were discovered dead well beyond any contact
      with Europeans.


Of course the books go on to blame MDs, the "Cancer Establishment",
vaccination, Pasteur, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, you
name it.


marc colten
From: ksanthan@garnet.berkeley.edu (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: On God and Science
Date: 17 Dec 1992 20:19:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec17.123956@IASTATE.EDU> danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:
[deleted]
>time.  A friend informs me that Kalki's name translates as servant-of-the-god-
>who-scourges-the-infidel.  He's pretty effective; after wading through his
[deleted]
>
>Dan
>Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
>Remember to chant:  {Ignore incovienient facts}^120

Actually, Kalki is the name for the upcoming 10th incarnation of the god Vishnu
in the Hindu religion.  This Kalki is to ride on a horse and slay all of the
evil people in the world at the end of this epoch (or yuga in Sanskrit).  I
haven't read any of Kalki's postings, so I don't know why he has named himself
such.  I'm not aware of anybody really naming their child Kalki.

Just my $0.02,
Kumaran

-- 
~|  ~/ ~|   ~| ~~\   ~|   .~~\  ~|~~~\  .~~\  ~~\  ~| :: ksanthan@
   /'   |    |  | \ / |   \__ |  `-- /  \__ |  | \  | ::  soda.berkeley.edu
 | \     \_  |  |  /  |  |    |  |  \  |    |  |  \ | ::
 |  `\    __/   |     |  |    |  |   \ |    |  |    | :: "That's how it is!"
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hoagland?  What's the deal?
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:46:58 GMT
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <athos-171292165134@kip2-16.apple.com>, athos@apple.com (Rick Eames) writes:
>Most of the stuff I can find on Hoagland and the 'face on Mars' is over 2
>years old.  Has any new light been brought to bear on this subject?  Is he
>still an issue?

No new info, though Hoagland has since claimed that the Mars Observer was
launched (on a secret space shuttle mission) about a year ago, instead of last
September.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21286 alt.folklore.urban:30870 alt.atheism:23376 alt.feminism:5906
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban,alt.atheism,alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Ritual Abuse Taskforce Alleges Poisoning
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:28:57 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Keywords: Interzone

In article <hayesstw.138.724050469@risc1.unisa.ac.za>, hayesstw@risc1.unisa.ac.za (Steve Hayes) writes:
|> In article <7514@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk> martin@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Martin Gorman) writes:
|> 
|> >I heard somewhere but I don't have any facts to back it up that the only
|> >recorded cases of proven ritual abuse in recent times involve Christians.
|> >Usually they do very odd and perverse things when they think their kiddies
|> >have been possessed by demons etc.
|> 
|> Yup, they're cannibals and eat babies. It's a well-known fact.

It's probably not what he's talking about.   In the US, there 
have been several recent scandals concerning the abuse of children
for religious motives.    Some children with Christian Scientist
parents have died from lack of medical attention, and a whole
group of children was recently siezed from a sect that believed
in "beating the devil" out of their children.

jon.
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Koln/Kohn
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:01:00 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec20.053021.26537@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF) writes...
>In the Frequently Questioned Answers, there is a reference to a book on
>scientific frauds called "False Prophets," and the author is given as one
>Alexander Koln.  Having checked at the library, I find that the author's
>name is given as "Kohn."  Unfortunately, the book's missing.  Sigh. 
>Anyway, I'd like to get it through interlibrary loan but would like to
>make sure of the author's name before I go bother people.  Anyone know
>which is right?

Kohn is correct.  I didn't like his book as much as William Broad and
Nicholas Wade's _Betrayers of the Truth: Deception in the Halls of
Science_ or Robert Bell's brand-new _Impure Science_ (1992, Wiley and Sons).
Bell discusses the Tereza Imanishi-Kari/David Baltimore case in great
detail.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21540 sci.med:22871
From: rdnelson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger D. Nelson)
Subject: Re: Question for Radin: psi-mediated comp failures
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:58:18 GMT

In article <ByyDG2.5wo@cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec4.173735.9423@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>, kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Bonus, Iniquus, Celer - Delegitus Duo) writes:
>|> I have been reading the book PArapsychology, by Richard Broughton.  On page
>|> 344, he mentions some work by Dean Radin on psi-mediated computer failures 9I
>|> hear a lot of haw-haws in the background because there is *no way* anyone could
>|> doubt that this is true).  Anyway, in the book Broughton mentions that this
>|> work was continuing.  Since Radin reads this newsgroup every now and then, I
>|> wonder if he would like to comment on this work, what it means, where it is,
>|> etc.
>|> 
>|> George Kambic
>|> sd
>|> 
>
>I second the request.  This is actually very important.  I need to know 
>this.
>
I forwarded Kambic's original note to Dean, since I knew he had long
since given up on sci.skeptic (can't imagine why, except that so many of
the posts are pointless and stupid, and entirely irrelevant to
sci.skeptic's charter and purpose; is there no way to get the sex and
religion folks to use other groups?).  He isn't likely to post anything,
so I will comment briefly.  The work mentioned was essentially the same
sort as other REG/RNG research, but instead of a radioactive decay or
electron tunneling source of random sequences, Radin used a new AT&T
T7001 chip designed as a single chip random number generator.  The link
to "computer failure" is in this sense a little more direct than is the
case with previous REG research.  Dean's results showed significant
deviations from expectation, but the database was very small, and can
only be considered a contribution to an ongoing accumulation of evidence
rather than a definitive study of psi-mediated computer failures.  The
reference in Broughton's book to continuing work was not specifically to
this experiment but to other research in the broad area of anomalous
interactions of consciousness with physical systems.  

Roger

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban,alt.atheism,alt.feminism