From: agoodrid@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky)
Subject: Re: Liberal males a problem?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:36:00 GMT

In article <1g0cjnINNpi3@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
shaffer-wendy@yale.edu (Wendy Shaffer) writes:

>In article <7DEC199202202523@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu>
> agoodrid@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky) writes:


>>This part might be an area that divides one type of feminism from
>>another.  That is, the sex of the people who empower women is
>>crucially important to some.  This thinking is different from others 
>>who see the goal as one that requires the presence of men.  In the
>>first group the male-female axis the most important distinction.
>>In the second, more of a humanist approach, the male-female axis
>>is only one of a number of lines of "division".

>Just to clarify what I meant in my original message about empowerment.
>What I would define as empowerment is the ability to take charge of your
>own life, make your own decisions, and carry out those decisions.  This
>is not something that can be "given" to women by men.  Men can certainly
>contribute to seeing that the laws and mores of society do not hinder
>women.  Their participation in this area is valuable.  But the feminist 
>movement as I see it doesn't end with changing the laws.  Women need to
>have a sense of independence that tells them that they run their own
>lives, not their fathers/husbands/boyfriends or whoever.  And in some 
>cases, can be a hindrance to women developing that sense.

Can we look at this a bit closer?

Empowerment as you define it needs a certain environment to flourish
does it not?

How does this environment come about, and how does it contribute to
empowerment?

It seems to me that you can bat your head against the wall all you
want but if the powers that be don't give you the power to manage
your life as they do theirs you are not empowered.

Is it easy to empower someone who has been abused since they were
young?  Probably not.  People need an environment that allows them
to use their sense of independence.  What contributes to this?
- Self-esteem - Right?  Big feminist buzzword.  You can get this
by positive reinforcement from the people around you.  Don't
men have a role to play there besides: contributing "to seeing that
the laws and mores of society do not hinder women"?

Do fathers contribute to empowering their daughters?

When I said that "..the sex of the people who empower women.." I
was refering to some feminists who do not want males involved in
.giving females their identity.  I hear this all the time in
feminist circles.


>Women need to
>have a sense of independence that tells them that they run their own
>lives, not their fathers/husbands/boyfriends or whoever.  And in some 
>cases, can be a hindrance to women developing that sense.

Quite true, and so is:

   Women need to
   have a sense of independence that tells them that they run their
   own lives, not their mothers/girlfriends or whoever.  And
   in some cases, (women) can be a hindrance to women developing
   that sense.

Steve  AGOODRID@VAXA.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU

Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex