From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Level limits
Originator: kjenks@gothamcity
Keywords: four-way balance
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:19:01 GMT


Rather than reply to three separate notes in this string, I'll 
condense my replies into one big note.

I wrote:
>>The level limits on non-humans are there purely for game balance.

To which markf@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Mark Fenoglio) replied:
>[...] The DM can always insist the players choose humans for the
>purpose of his long term campaign plans.  And the game balance argument
>is crap.

I certainly don't advocate that everybody play only human characters.
But I do make sure that everybody knows the rules and their
implications.  And my world's structure (or balance, if you will) is
affected by those implications.

The game balance may be "crap" in your campaign.  But mine is nicely
balanced, thank you.  If yours isn't, you might try playing by the
rules.  For a change.

Mark again:
>While it is true that allowing elves unlimited advancement may seem
>like a death sentence for humans, that simply isn't true.  The reason
>(I think) humans dominate is the relative size of their population,
>which is considerably larger than elves.  This is precisely because
>elves live longer.

I don't quite follow your logic, here.  Humans dominate because they
don't live as long as elves?  Humans dominate because there are a
bunch of zero-levels running about?  Humans dominate because elves
don't reproduce as fast?  I'd buy into that last argument.  But what
about half-orcs?  They reproduce even faster than humans, and without
level limits, this argument would promote them ahead of humans.  Be
consistent.

Later in my note, I said:
>> Faced with these advantages, the only things which would make a player
>> choose a human character over a non-human one are (1) he wants to play
>> that race because it fits with his character concept, or (2) these
>> advantages are all more than counterbalanced when a non-human character
>> hits those level limits.  No matter how many minor racial advantages
>> there are, as the game progresses naturally into higher power levels,
>> non-humans are left in the dust.

To which maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc "Redwing" Maillet) replied:

>Well, for one, and if I remember well, the stats bonus/[minus] for
>demi-humans cancel each other, making them equal to humans in this
>matter.

You mis-remember.  Several non-human races have stat bonuses which
outweigh their penalties.  Half-orcs are one example.  Dwarves are
another.

maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc "Redwing" Maillet) again:
>But the main point is that you suggest that one chooses a race for the
>advantages it gives.  If this is the case for the group you play with, I
>pity you.

I *did* say that there are two reasons to choose non-humans.  And I do
encounter more players who seek game mechanic advantages than players
who seek a character with a particular character concept.  However,
people still choose humans in games I've played in where there are no
level limits.  It's usually for reason (1).

Me again:
>> If an elf lives for 200 years or more, one would think that he'd take a
>> decade somewhere and go adventuring, if only to make himself harder to
>> kill, more resistant to poison and disease, etc.

maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc "Redwing" Maillet) replied:
>I beg your pardon ? "if only to make himself..." ? have you tried other
>games, to get rid of this PLAYER (as opposed to CHARACTER) concept?
>Amass wealth, knowledge, magic items, wisdom... fiding one's place in
>the world, ascending the social ladder... OK. But getting more hp,
>better saving throws, those are mechanics !

You ignore the long-term social effects which game mechanics would have
on a society.  Although this may seem to be a "player concept," the
people who live in an AD&D world would quickly learn several things
about adventurers: 1) they're tough to kill, 2) trouble seeks them out,
3) don't cross them; they win, and 4) they almost always come back to
life.  The social effects of this is that everybody will change their
interactions with people who are (or are perceived to be) adventurers.

Similarly, people will choose to be adventurers for different reasons,
but one reason will be the physical power which comes with being an
adventurer.  In our society, this is one of the many reasons people
choose to be police officers, soldiers, sailors and airmen.  People
like power.

Me:
>> I can't buy the story that "elves live longer, therefore they should be
>> unlimited in level."  Because the elven races live longer is precisely
>> the reason why they should NOT be allowed to progress to high (14+)
>> levels of clericism and magic use.

maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc "Redwing" Maillet):
>Just give me a good WORLD ( NOT "game balance" ) reason to do that.

Because otherwise they'd rule the world, and most DM's don't want elves
ruling the place (mine does).  I won't give you any hocus-pocus about
"elves are inherently magical" or "dwarves have fighting in their
blood."  As I stated at the beginning of my post, the only real reason
for non-human level limits is game balance.  If you're looking for
another one, or you think there's no such thing as a balanced game,
you'll be disappointed.

To reply to Sea Wasp's comments, I've dealt with most of them above 
or in the original note.  However....

Me:
>>Like the precentage of magical items sized for or specific to non-human
>>races.

Wasp:
>Most magical items size themselves to fit anything within a reasonable
>range of sizes, unless the creator of the item intended that no one
>else would wear it...

That is true of some items, but nowhere near all of them.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

      The company stood rooted to the ground in terror.
      The creature was about fifty feet tall, with wide
      lapels, long dangling participles, and a pronounced
      gazetteer.
        "Aiyee!" shouted Legolam.  "A Thesaurus!"
        "Maim!" roared the monster.  "Mutilate, mangle,
      crush.  See HARM."
        "Quick," cried Goodgulf.  "Into the cavern!"
         -- "Bored of the Rings," National Lampoon, (c) 1969