HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Prophetic Word
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:54:19 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

> ... True revival can only come about when My people
> dwell in unity-not only in the local body, but across denominations and
> locations and cultures. 

A point of history is that nearly all these denominations have come 
about as a result of true revival. Revival necessarily brings a 
division within the church between those who accept the revival as a 
work of God and those who reject it.

There is a popular teaching these days that unity is to be favoured 
above doctrine. I agree that there is little point in division over 
theological discussions of the nature of the atonement and such like, 
but there are certain truths which cannot be compromised for the sake 
of unity. Justification by faith alone is one such truth.

What about apostasy in the church? Are we to unite with churches which 
do not preach Christ crucified? Are we to uncritically accept a unity 
with churches which deny Christ's resurrection? Are we to unite with 
evangelists who take money from the poor and needy with their abhorrent 
prosperity gospels?

It is a fallacy to say that God treasures unity above truth. God will 
sometimes deliberately bring about a division. Look at the division 
of Israel and Judah in 2 Chronicles, where God said:

"Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man
to his house: for this thing is done of me" - 2 Chronicles 11:4

God brought about that division, and he has brought about division in 
revival. The division is between those seeking God's glory and those 
who are not.

"For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who will ready themselves
for battle." 

Thus the testimony of the church is kept pure only by separation from 
those who would make the sound uncertain.

> Seek this greater unity with your brothers and
> sisters. Then My Spirit will be poured out upon you, and you will
> accomplish mighty things for My Kingdom."

This is not a scriptural pre-condition for the outpouring of the Spirit.

Obedience to God's word, prayer and fasting are scriptural pre-conditions, 
so let us learn to do these things (and I speak to myself as much as 
to anyone else).

Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 31 Jul 92 06:08:08 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In article <Jul.30.03.37.33.1992.11555@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:

>Adultury need not be seen as a sexual sin; it's a specific form of
>oathbreaking.  It's not directly analogous to homosexuality.

This, and a previous post by Mike Bushnell focus on adultery as a
(physical) act which violates a convenant.  While I think that this
is an interesting analysis, I think it breaks down a bit in light of 
Matthew 5:27-28 which treats adultery in terms of lustful _thoughts_.
Certainly in light of this I would not want to ignore the 
explicitly sexual nature of adultery, any more than I would want
to ignore the explicitly sexual component of marriage :-).

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christianity in decline?
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:42:55 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In article <Jul.28.03.21.32.1992.25350@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> F_GRIFFITH@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:

>Someone wrote:"Christianity is in a decline because of its closed-
>minded dogmatic approaches to a changing society."

>It is the liberal denominations, which are least dogmatic, which
>are suffering the decline.
>It is the denominations that still emphasize the authority of 
>scripture (are closed-minded & dogmatic in the eyes of our
>secular society) that are growing.

The planet's a mess.  People are frightened.  They want some certainties in 
their lives.  A bit of good solid dogma suits them nicely.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  I don't take part in any sport that requires me to change clothes  |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

[As usual, I'd like to point out that this is ad hominem.  I can
easily explain away fundamentalism as due to people looking for more
certainty than is really there.  I can also explain away liberalism as
due to people who have sins they aren't willing to give up, and so
adopt interpretive devices to avoid the clear words of Scripture.
Ultimately neither of these views is useful in discussions in a group
like this.  --clh]
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Fasting
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:48:15 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

It seems pretty clear to me that the Bible assumes that Christians
will fast.  I have also read a couple of articles on the subject,
particulary in "Celebration of Discipline" that have been enough to 
convince me that this discipline does have a place in the Christian
life.  However I also have a doubt in my mind as to whether it would
be a good thing for me to do:

I have always had a fairly obsessive relationship with food 
In the past I have done fasts for charity - 24 or 48 hours, and have 
noticed 2 things from them:

The first is that I find not eating quite easy.  In fact I get quite a
high out of denying myself food.

The second is that I find it hard to resume normal eating after a
fast.  I tend to go into a binge/starve cycle that last a few days.

So, is there  anyone out there with a similar history who has learned
to use fasting as a spiritual discipline ?  Or anyone who tried and
got burned ?  

I'd welcome any comments

Thanks

Alison
alisonjw@spider.co.uk
From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Dear Abby Column
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:10:08 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

The following letter to "Dear Abby" appeared in yesterday's
San Francisco Chronicle (7/22/92).  From the preface it is
repeated from some earlier column.

Dear Abby:  Since God alone can create life, and since God 
alone knows what tomorrow brings, HE alone is truly qualified
as a family planner.

How did a smart girl like you ever get taken in by Planned
Parenthood.
    (signed) A Longtime Admirer

Dear Admirer:  I read the figures on the population explosion
and saw pictures of thousands of starving children born of 
parents who did not want them and could not feed them.  I
then concluded that a just God could not possibly have given
life to innocent children only to doom them to death by
starvation in their infancy.

In the 3+ years I have been reading s.r.c I have seen this argument a
half a dozen times in various forms.  All that is missing is the
traditional final sentence: "Therefore I can't possibly believe in
(the Christian) God."  In this case, I haven't the vaguest idea what
to infer.  However I do think it is a shallow response to an equally
shallow letter, and so it deserves a reply.  Any suggestions?

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO

P.S.  Out of curiosity, what is "Dear Abby"'s religious affiliation,
if any?
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ARE THERE ANY CHRISTIAN GIFS OUT THERE?
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:22:14 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Jul.26.14.42.26.1992.3290@dumas.rutgers.edu> agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:

   I've been looking for a long time for any Christian computer gifs.
   Does anyone have any or know where I can get some?

There are going to be some Catholic GIFS soon.  I will post the
instructions when everything is ready.
From: marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Intercessory Prayer
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:23:40 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <Jul.20.02.22.21.1992.9259@dumas.rutgers.edu>, jcondit@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (jeffery.r.condit) writes:
> In article <Jul.16.01.15.57.1992.710@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>
> carpenter@mgi.com writes:
>>
>>Are some people better intercessors than others?  If so, why?  (This
>>question may be asked of both the living and the dead, since saints
>>are frequently requested to intercede of behalf of various causes.)
>>
> 
> This is a good question, and one I am interested in.  My wife, Karen,
> and I were discussing just the other day.  She's been doing a lot of
> intercession lately, and she tells me that the Holy Spirit clearly
> leads her in her prayers.  We believe, or want to believe, that
> intercession is a gift of the Holy Spirit.  However, it's not listed
> among the gifts in the New Covenant, e.g., Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12
> and 14, etc.  Any ideas?
> 
> Jeff

We've been talking about that in the college group that I help instruct. 
Intercession is for all of Jesus's disciples (of whom you are one).  Here's a
few examples:

When Paul addressed Timothy about instructions on worship, he said,  "I urge,
then, first of all, that requests, prayers, INTERCESSION and thanksgiving be
made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live
peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness."  (1 Tim 2:1,2 NIV)

When Paul wrote to the Ephesians about the armour of God, "And pray in the
Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.  With this in
mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." (Eph 6:18 NIV)

In the book of the prophet Isaiah, "and he bare the sin of many, and made
intercession for the transgressors." (latter part of Isaiah 53:12 KJV)  

Since intercession for others was a discipline of the disciples written of in
the Bible, it should still be for the disciples that Christ has now in us.

Evan Marshall
Co-Chair, Chi Alpha Ministries
marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu
From: kemery@nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Parable?
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:08:33 GMT

Subject: Parable? (was Re: apply Doubting Thomas to today...how?)

smayo.wang.com writes:


[lot of stuff deleted]
>Put differently, Jesus, in a parable, mentioned that if folk would not
>believe the writings of Moses and the prophets, neither would they believe
>if someone should rise from the dead. (Luke 16:27-31). There is a lot
>in that. Jesus was pretty clearly of the opinion that hard proof was not
>going to change anyone's mind who had already decided to reject God's
>earlier words. Conversely, if folk were willing to listen to God in the
>first place, hard proof isn't especially needed. There may be folk who
>in fact can be swayed by direct evidence of the existance of God, and
>who honestly seek such proof. To be honest and somewhat cynical, I think
>that's a very rare case. To such folk, God may give private demonstrations
>of his power: answering fleece prayers and so on. Thomas may fall into
>such a category. But I don't think we should assume that God will be this
>generous with folk who are already biased against God, and if the events
>surrounding Jesus's life are any example, lots of folk are biased against God.
--

Just a quick statement here.  This was not a parable.  If you read
carefully you will see Jesus say "There was a man..."  Everywhere
else in the Bible you read "Jesus taught them a parable..." etc.
It doesn't negate your point,  but I think accuracy helps.

BTW:  On the subject,  I don't think God minds giving us proof.
As a matter of fact,  He gave us the world as proof.  Psalms
says "The wonders declare His glory".  God is continually doing 
things interpreted as proof for His followers and those that are not
His followers.

For reference,  when I was in college at New Mexico Tech,  I was
witnessing to my best friend.  We had talked for many months,  and
didn't seem to be getting anywhere.  One day we were out golfing,
He lost his ball in the rough.  We looked and looked for it.  Finally
he said "God only knows where my ball is"  without hesitating I said,
"Well, let's ask Him",  I said a quick prayer,  he looked down and
was standing almost on top of his ball.  Coincidence?  I think not.

If the Bible is really true,  and we believe that God is not 
willing that any should perish,  then we must believe that
if it takes some sort of proof to show His existence,  He will
do it.

Kendal
~r ..\.signature


*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************
** kemery@dante.nmsu.edu  (Kendal Emery)                         **
**                                                               **
**      "If Jesus came back today...                             **
**         We'd try to book Him on the Oprah Winfry Show"        **
**                      Randy Stonehill..Great Big Stupid World. **
**                                                               **
*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************
From: shimeall@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: The Harshness of soc.religion.christian
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:09:19 GMT
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

While it is rare for me to agree with Prof. Crew, let me support him
on the point that expecting discussion of deeply personal matters on 
soc.religion.christian is unrealistic.  Many people, myself and (I
assume) Prof. Crew included, are reluctant to lay forth private
matters in anything but a supportive (even if critically supportive)
setting.

Christ warned us frequently that the world is a war zone, (e.g., "I have
come to set brother against brother and father against son.") and
soc.religion.christian is certainly part of the world. This is clearly
not a group in support of any one viewpoint, not even a generalized 
Christian viewpoint, given the moderator's stated willingness to
accept postings by non-christians questioning Christian views and
principles.  Expecting such a generalized group to act as a support
group will inevitably be disappointing.

It is also an interesting feature of electronic discussions that they
seem to accentuate differences more than commonalities, unless the
participants are very homogeneous.  For example, I tend to read Prof.
Crew's posts and note an elevation of God's love while denying the Holy
nature of that Love and the standards to which that Love calls
Christians, instead of simply accepting the statement of Love.
Judging by the posted reactions to some of Prof. Crew's posts, I'm
not unique in that.  (BTW, having pointed out what seems to be a
difference between how Prof. Crew and I interpret God's nature and
work, let me publically state that I believe Prof. Crew to be an
earnest seeker of God's will for his life, and I pray for him
frequently.)
			Tim
From: daveshao@leland.stanford.edu (David Shao)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Employer Coercion for New Age seminars
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:41:28 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

I recently read an article in the San Jose Mercury News describing
the lawsuit three former employees have brought against Applied
Materials for alleged harassment following employee complaints
against an outside consulting firm's seminar based on the teachings
of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology.
The firm, Applied Scholastics of Fremont, has had its services used
by among others IBM, Hewlett-Packard Co., Memorex Co., Blue Cross,
and the U.S. Army.  Further details can be found in this article
written by Alan Gathright in the Tuesday, July 28, 1992, Business
section 1E of the San Jose Mercury News.

I am curious about whether others on the net have found themselves
in similar situations of feeling coerced into participating in
such seminars, and whether they fought back even to the extreme
of filing a lawsuit, or whether they kept quiet in order to keep
their job and save their career.

I don't have a personal experience with such a situation (yet).

Yours in Christ
David Shao

[The issue here is not just scientology.  There's been a tendency to
use various techniques for group-building that in my people's opinion
push a bit further than is probably appropriate into employees private
values and lives.  While a Christian might well find things based
on principles of scientology inappropriate, I suspect there are
similar problems caused by things without any specific religious
orientation.  --clh]
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Into the highways and hedges
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:07:41 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo

In article <Jul.20.01.59.55.1992.5089@dumas.rutgers.edu>, masimo@netcom.com (Michael Maas) writes...
>In article <Jul.9.00.33.48.1992.1399@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> portland!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes in response to an earlier article
>by C Louie Crew: 
>>A couple points.  
>>
>>- Contrary to popular opinion, God doesn't love everybody.  He loves those
>>  who obey His commandments.  He does not take pleasure in wickedness, and
>>  He hates those "who work iniquity" (Psalm 5:4,5).
>
>The greatest commandment is to love God with all of your heart, all of your
>strength and all of your mind, the second is like unto it to Love your neighbor
>as yourself.  On these two commandments hang all of the law and all of the
>prophets.  

	Certainly Mike, but can we claim to love God and also ignore 
    His commandments?

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my
    love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and
    abide in his love.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God,
    when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his
    commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

	If we are following the command to love the Lord, that love 
    will be expressed as we follow the Lord's commands.


 en agape,
 Bob
From: jnorris@milton.u.washington.edu (Joel Norris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: apply Doubting Thomas to taday...how?
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:18:25 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <Jul.20.01.54.33.1992.4135@dumas.rutgers.edu> kene@bu-it.bu.edu (Ken Engel) writes:
>>So I think God furnishes all
>>sorts of incontravertible proof today, but because people are not fully
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>rational, it does not overpower them.
>
>Such as?
>

As I said earlier, unregenerate people are blind. Although the proof is
always there, it does not become obvious until after you believe. As 
time goes on, I become more and more convinced of the truth of the
Christian religion. Some examples follow, although not all of them apply
specifically to Christianity.

1) The universe exists. Where did it come from?

2) People have ethics. Qualities of rightness or wrongness cannot be
   derived from a purely naturalistic framework.

3) Evil exists. But I see it being redeemed.

4) My prayers have been answered. Sometimes this involved rather
   unlikely outcomes.

5) My heart testifies to the presence of God. I turn away from Him but
   He is with me always.

6) I am being regenerated. My character is evermore being remade into
   that of Jesus.

7) I am being restored. My brokeness from sins inflicted upon me is
   being healed.

8) I have been given many blessings. Unfortunately I rarely consider
   them.

9) To believe otherwise leads to futility. Who is more foolish, the
   Christian who believes in a God who cannot be seen, or the atheist
   who believes in no God yet thinks his life still has meaning?

>
>What exactly happened that made you believe? I am a Doubting Thomas who
>frequently needs reaffirming evidence.
>
>ken

Actually, when I was on the verge of becoming a Christian, I really
wanted to believe but couldn't overcome the intellectual stumbling block
of the resurrection (and others). I wondered if one just woke up some
morning believing. For how could one convince himself that something
was true if one didn't already think it was true?

So one morning I was praying to God that (if He existed) He would help
me. Then it came to me. I wasn't supposed to wait until I was sure
about everything before I began the Christian life, rather I was
supposed to start living as a Christian and assurance would follow. And
so it did.

Please email responses to me directly. I won't be following s.r.c. for
awhile, as I find it is distracting me too much from my work.

Joel

--
Joel Norris			"The fear of the LORD
				 is the beginning of knowledge."
jnorris@u.washington.edu	 -- Proverbs 1:7
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and the so-called "Christian biblical stance."
Date: 31 Jul 92 07:52:29 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <Jul.30.03.37.33.1992.11555@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
>Adultury need not be seen as a sexual sin; it's a specific form of
>oathbreaking.  It's not directly analogous to homosexuality.

In this culture some kind of oath is usually made.  What about cultures
in which no oath is made?

Link Hudson.

[I suspect the term "oath" was being used loosely.  I think by
most definitions, if there isn't a commitment, there isn't a
marriage.  --clh]
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: OXFAM address for contributions?
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:16:33 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

Sorry if this is not the appropriate newsgroup for this question. I couldn't
find a better one.

Can someone mail me the address for OXFAM? Does anyone here have information,
either good or bad, about them?

Please *mail* answers to me (smayo@wang.com). Thanks!
--
..For to contend in words is not to care how error is overcome by truth,
   but how your speech is preferred to that of another.      -Augustine
smayo@wang.com
From: gja6234@trex.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Request: Systematic Theology mailing list?
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:19:15 GMT
Reply-To: gja6234@trex.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

Mar,
   This is my 2nd try at responding to your question.  Hope you get either , or
better yet, both.

   I'm not aware of a mailing list, per say, for Systematic Theology.  I guess
I'm not real clear on what it is you're looking for.  The title "Sytematic
Theology" (S.T.) is used often by a varied group of authors.  I have found that
it is more of a process rather than a subject.  The ones I've read have a lot
of what your looking for (i.e.  historical, philosophy, religion, )  One can
get a balanced view by reading many.  I have found an S.T. book that hits very
close to the mark by Huffer.  If you need an address, let me know and the book
is yours at a minimal cost ($10-15, I think)

ShalomIn article <Jul.20.02.22.24.1992.9270@dumas.rutgers.edu>,
mchung@ee.tamu.edu
(Maranatha Chung) writes:
>Is there a mailing list for Systematic Theology?