From: c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde)
Subject: Re: Let's get back to basics
Organization: Uni of Newcastle, Australia
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 03:31:29 GMT

esposito@hamlet.uncg.edu (Andrew Joseph Esposito) writes:

>In article <c8922369.717297734@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au> c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde) writes:
>>From: c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde)
>>Subject: Re: Let's get back to basics
>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 01:22:14 GMT
>>bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:
>>
>>>1. There is NO god.
>>Prove that. Start by making a definition of 'God'.

>You can't prove a negative.  But you can prove a positive.  So please 
>disprove his statement by posing a new proof for the existence of God.  
>Start with a definition of God.
Yes .. thats what I said ....!!!!! ???????????????????????????

Are you psychic Andrew ?I just thought one up this morning.
Assume GOD knows EVERYTHING.  a god which doesnt isnt really a god, right ?
Then GOD is EVERYTHING. 
The metaphysical aspects of this idea arent humanly comprehendable, as
humans can't comprehand the nature of GOD. Therefore I don't feel
qualified to decide whether this is a contradiction ( If GOD is everything, then
there is nothing for GOD to be god of.), or the plain truth. ( pantheism ???.. )


>>>5. The universe was not "created".
>>Where did it come from then ?? 
>>Obviously the universe always existed, for as long as time itself has.
>>(Reference : Stephen Hawking)
>>But where do time and universe come from ?
>>The best atheist attitude on this  is who cares and why would they care ?

>Reread Stephen Hawking's book _A_Breif_Moment_in_Time_.  Time is an integral 
>part of space.  When space expanded time expanded with it.  There can be no 
>"Before the big bang" because Time did not exsist before the big bang.  
>Therefor the big bang is the start of time.  

I didnt contradict. I said, yes, yes yes.but  Is there a complete specification
booklet for the universe ?? GOD's blueprints ??? NO!!! I want more info.
on these, not the time of the big bang (obviously time 0.00000000000000000000
in any units you care to use).

>>>	These are some of the basic issues.
>>These are philosophical ideas, that are either believed or disbelieved
>>by humanity. The idea of alt.atheism should be to help 
>>atheists to become a respectable element of society by exposing
>>the strength of our BELIEFS.
>>Thus, it is a war, which some people suggest mere passive resistance
>>to the negative effect of the merging of government and religion,
>>and some suggests proactive lobbying and education.

>Gee, I thought this was just a discussion list to promote learning about 
>athieism and religion.  Wow, there is a purpose. Please make me into a more 
>RESPECTABLE ELEMENT OF SOCIETY!!!!  (bwaaaa hahahahaha! -- right!)
Hmmm..     Do you it would work to simply give you a Porche ??  :)    :)

To promote learning about atheism and religion....   Well ... 
What's our sales pitch ?   Become an arrogant devil-may care pighead weirdo
today ! ?????

Look at the way political campaigns are run ! And you dont see the connection
between (apparent) beliefs and power/respectability/etc.

>>The basic atheist belief is as strong and useful as any  theistic belief,
>>and this message should be spread.

>Get real.  This is no Crusade.  This is a discussion list.  For people to 
           ok, but I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm trying to establish
what the beliefs you already have mean in todays society ....
and what exactly is wrong with what society thinks of atheists. 

>talk about a particular subject in (hopefully) an intelectual mannor.
Get real. People are copy cats. When you put your ideas forward, you know 
you think people should believe you, or be able to set you straight
(in which case you'll be believing them).  And I am trying to get discussion
(in an intellectual manner) on whether atheism can become a sign of 
respectability. After all money follows respectability, and money makes the 
world turn! (Are their any rich atheists ?? )

 I dont seriously intend making a religion out
of atheism, I just thought that we are only ever discussing philosophy of gods
and other such entites, or we are critising christianity.
I thought we should now make use of gained knowledge in a positive far-sighted
manner.  

>--
>Andrew Joseph Esposito                    internet:  esposito@hamlet.uncg.edu
>voice (919) 379-8244                      bitnet:    in%"esposito@uncg.bitnet"
Look at the biblical middle name you have got !!   Do you show it as a sign
of respectability ????????  :) :) 

 a 'lion strong guard',
leon