From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Pakistan is lilbit different from Israel
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 02:17:16 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.

In article <1hde4jINN240@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>> Stuff Deleted
>>> 
>>> >The creation of the Jewish state of Israel solely on the basis of religion
>>> >which resulted in the mass expulsion of Arabs and non-jews is derided by the
>>> >entire muslim world and possibly by a large number of Pakistanis; but I've
>>never
>>> >understood how the creation of the muslim state of Pakistan was justified in
>>the
>>> >same breadth by the same people.
>>> 
>>> >--Javed.
>> 
>>> 	Pakistan and India were Created by bisecting pre-1947 India.
>>> 	People who lived in post-47 India were living there for centuies.
>>> 	Similarly people who lived in Pakistan lived there for Centuries.
>>> 	i.e. Baluchis, Panjabis, Sindhis, Bengalis, and Pathans. Yes, huge
>>> 	trans-border migration took place, but all of the people who now live
>>> 	in Pakistan and India,  lived in pre 47 India for thousands of years.
>>> 	Israel on the other hand was created for bringing people who
>>> 	did not belong to Palestine. In other words, Jews who live in
>>> 	todays Israel, most of them are of non Palestinian ancestary.
>>> 	i.e. people of pre 1948 Palestine <> people of Jordan + People of
>>> 					     Israel + People of West Bank
>>> 						      of river Jordan.
>>> 
>>> 	but people of pre 1947 India = people of modern Pakistan 
>>> 				     + people of modern India.
>>>   
>
>>I'm not disputing the fact that the people of India and Pakistan belonged to
>>pre-partition India. I am disputing the ideology that resulted in the creation
>>of these religion inspired countries. 
>	Hey dude, You may not like Pakistan, and that is OK.	Pakistan
>	was not darling of All Indian Muslims. Neither it is today.
>	But please dont start playing with words. Pakistan has nothing
>	in common with Israel. Please refer to Mustafa Syed
>	article under the same title as this posting. He has made a very
>	strong point. Pakistan was supported by Indian Muslims( pre-47)
>	in 1946 elections. i.e. majority of Indian Muslims(pre 1947 minus
>	princely staes eg. Kashmir, hyderabad, bhopal etc.) supported
>	creation of Pakistan. Remember, not all muslims wanted Paksitan.
>	A higher percentage of muslims in what became paksitan did not
>	support Pakistan. eg. Panjab. Lack of education among Panjabi
>	Muslims and strong zamindar control over them were two main
>	reasons that Panjabi Musalmans did not realize advantages of
>	Pakistan. You may very well argue that Pakistan had no advantage
>	for UP Muslims or MP( eg. Bhopal) muslims either. It is a historical
>	debate. I personally agree that Urdu Speaking Muslims have 
>	screwed themselves for ever by supporting Pakistan. Those of

They supported Pakistan out of hatred for Hindus... in the same way as they
support Pakistan even today out of hatred for Hindus.

>	them who were able to make it Pakistan have been systematically
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	eliminated and now officially are second grade citizens of Pakistan.
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Very cute :) Lies and more lies... If they are being systematically eliminated
how come their percentage (population-wise) is increasing in Pakistan every
year... And you say they are now second grade citizens... I'd say I find these
jokes of yours funnier than the blonde ones. It is these people who consider
themselves the high-class Muslims... so high that they conspired to create
a separate homeland called Jinnahpur for practicing *their* Islam. I'd say
Jinnahpur would sure have competed with Israel... At least it would have
displaced native Sindians.

>	Widespread jehalat in Pakistan at the time of its creation has
>	been a major cause in lack of promotion of democratic ideals
>	which Indian Muslims had expected. The areas which became Pakistan

Nonsense.. Indian immigrants have benefitted the most from the absense of 
democracy. They always oppose every democracy and have always supported
Martial Laws.. and need I say, it served them well...

>	were the most backward in pre-47 India. East Bengal was a big
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	slum. West Pakistan had no industry, no education, no commerce,
        ^^^^^

Come on!! Slums should have brought back memories of home :) for the immigrants.

>	nothing. Only thing it had was army. And we all know the result.
>	Those Urdu speaking Muslims who were left in India, are not
>	in good shape either. Forget the ideal desired by Indian Constitution.
>	Muslims generally, and Urdu speaking Muslims especially, have 
>	pretty tough time for them in future( in India).

That's what they deserve if they are not sincere to their nation i.e. India.

>	Muslim cultural centers were left in post-47 India.

"Indian Muslims' cultural centers" would be more appropriate... The cultures
of natives of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP are distinct from that of
Indian Muslims.

>	Dehli, Lucknow, Hyderabad, Bhopal none of them became part of
>	Pakistan. Begum Shaista Ikramullah ( sister of Hussain Shaheed
>	Suhrawardy, an ex. P.M. of Pakistan) once met Jinnah right after
>	the independence in Karachi. When he asked her how did she like
>	in her new country, she said ".... but there is no Dehli,
>	no Calcutta, and no Aligarh". To which he replied, may be one day
>	we will be able to have places better than that in Pakistan.
>	Well, people like Ayub Khan, Zardari, Navab Kalabagh, Navaz Sharif,
>	and Benazir are the last people on the face of this earth who
>	know any thing about education promotion, culture, tehzib etc.
>	But the fact remains that Pakistan is different from Israel.
>	It was not created the way Israel was created.

Too bad we don't have the whore-houses that served as cultural
centers for Muslim elites of Hindu majority states of India. For us
our Khans and Zardaris and Bugtis are better than your
Lakhnawi launDa's. At least they don't call their women bitches.

>>
>>In the case of Israel, the majority of the Jews around the world are Semites,
>>like the Arabs and descendents of the Jewish tribes of the ancient biblical land
>>comprising present day Israel, who were exiled from their lands.
>>
>>My argument is that if religion is the sole justification for creating Pakistan,
>>then the creation of Israel also cannot be faulted on that token.
>>
>>Before people get worked up, I must make it clear that I support the claims
>>of the Palestinians in their fight against Israel because the foundation of
>>the Israeli state is based on morally unacceptable and illegal premises.
>>
>>But I see the same parallels, though not of the same magnitude, in the creation
>>of Pakistan.
>	Read the stuff I wrote above.
>>
>
>>--Javed.
>
>Mansoor Khan
>Cleveland.

Nadeem

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-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7527  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian