HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Subject: Re: Vietnam Memorial (was Vietnam Moratorium)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:17:32 GMT

buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY) writes:
>I like the wall. Unlike other memorials in Washington, it is personal. It is
>something that people can approach and touch. It does not glorify war nor does
>it make any judgements on the war. Most memorials that I have seen are the 
>traditional soldier standing on a pedestal. In the wall, we have essentially
>a blank slate where the people can project their own feelings and emotions 
>into the wall. Maya Lin gave us a gift. The gift of a memorial that actually
>belongs to and can be touched by anyone.

And, as someone (Dickens? Wilde?) pointed out long ago, Washington has 
altogether too many bronze generals.

---
Joe Knapp   jmk@cbvox.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Vietnam Memorial (was Vietnam Moratorium)
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:38:08 GMT

Here's a list of newspaper stories detailing Perot's opposition
to the Vietnam Memorial, which included hiring Roy Cohn to harass
committee members.  The 7/7/92 front page story in the Washington
Post is the most complete version.  The only accusation of racism
comes from Blumenthal's article in the New Republic (and he cites
two sources), and Maya Lin said at the time that she believed a large 
part of the opposition came because she was an Asian woman.  


The Boston Globe, November 10, 1992
The Houston Chronicle November 8, 1992, Sunday, 2 STAR Edition
The Washington Post, November 7, 1992
The New Republic Inc. 1992, October 19, 1992
Playboy 1992, August, 1992
 The Atlanta Journal and Constitution, July 7, 1992
The Washington Post, July 7, 1992 
USA TODAY, June 16, 1992
The Independent, June 13, 1992
 The New York Times, June 7, 1992
  Los Angeles Times, June 3, 1992
The Boston Globe,    May 16, 1992
USA TODAY,  November 11, 1991
The New York Times,       February 24, 1991
The Washington Post,  November 5, 1989
Chicago Tribune, May 27, 1988
The New York Times,        May 27, 1988
Washington Post,   April 21, 1985
Washington Post,  November 9, 1984
Washington Post,  November 8, 1983
Newsweek,  October 25, 1982
Washington Post, October 13, 1982
Washington Post,   July 7, 1982

Also, there's one book, to my knowledge, about the controversy:
TO HEAL A NATION; The  Vietnam  Veterans  Memorial.   
By Jan C. Scruggs and Joel L. Swerdlow.  Harper & Row.  414 pp.  
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: gledbet@heartland.bradley.edu (Gene Ledbetter)
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
Subject: Vietnam NGO Email Network
Date: 23 Nov 1992 12:29:35 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: gledbet@heartland.bradley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact:  Mr. Tin V. Le
                                          408-944-4157
                                          USA

To facilitate the exchange of information among
international non-governmental organizations (NGOs) whose 
work involves Vietnam, the Vietnamese American Education 
Foundation (VAEF) is establishing an electronic mail network 
that will connect all interested NGOs into a worldwide 
system.  

VAEF will provide and maintain a hub in Northern California 
(USA); interested NGOs will be tied to this hub 
electronically upon request.  When an NGO dispatches a news 
release or other piece of information to the other NGOs on 
this network, the sender need only send one electronic mail 
message to the hub, and the hub will dispatch this message 
to all other NGOs on the network.  This system will  greatly 
increase communication effectiveness among NGOs.  At 
present, VAEF will dispatch mail to all NGOs on the network 
at no cost.  Thus, either no cost will be incurred by each 
NGO or the cost will be very low, depending on which 
electronic mail system the NGO uses.

NGOs that are currently able to access the Internet, or an
electronic mail system connected to the Internet, may send
an electronic message to:

     VNNGO-info@saigon.com

In the message please include the following information:

     Name of NGO:
     Date of incorporation:
     State (or country) of incorporation:
     Address:
     Phone number:
     Fax number:
     Electronic mail address:
     Interests in Vietnam:
     Name of contact person:
     Title of contact person:

NGOs that do not currently have email access may write to 
the VAEF at 1628 16th Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20009 USA  
or to fax number 703-590-3519 for instructions describing 
how to gain access by electronic mail.

VAEF is a Washington-based, nonprofit, tax-exempt 
organization that devotes itself exclusively to education 
and training to assist Vietnam in integrating its economy 
into the international market.  The Foundation's membership 
includes many professionals and academics around the world.

Newsgroups: soc.veterans
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Subject: Re: Vietnam Memorial (was Vietnam Moratorium)
Reply-To: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 04:01:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.181732.27774@cbnews.cb.att.com>,
jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp) writes:
|> buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY) writes:
|> >I like the wall. Unlike other memorials in Washington, it is
|> personal. It is
|> >something that people can approach and touch. It does not glorify
|> war nor does
|> >it make any judgements on the war. Most memorials that I have seen
|> are the 
|> >traditional soldier standing on a pedestal. In the wall, we have
|> essentially
|> >a blank slate where the people can project their own feelings and
|> emotions 
|> >into the wall. Maya Lin gave us a gift. The gift of a memorial that
|> actually
|> >belongs to and can be touched by anyone.
|> 
|> And, as someone (Dickens? Wilde?) pointed out long ago, Washington
|> has 
|> altogether too many bronze generals.
|> 
  Yea, and the problem is tooooo many of them are on active
duty :-)

-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I BUY my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: ck442@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Floyd Low)
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
Subject: Re: Navy News Service - 10 Nov 92
Date: 24 Nov 1992 03:06:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


WOW! does the army have anything like that? I'm Canadian ARmy Res
 in Ottawa Canada, my grandfather was US ARMY ENGINEERS in France
in WW1. Any Army BBS or toll free info is apprciated
Newsgroups: soc.veterans,alt.war.vietnam
From: ck442@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Floyd Low)
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
Subject: Re: tag
Date: 24 Nov 1992 03:00:55 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


suggest you contact the military attaches at the us embassy in
ottawa. they can put you on to historical branc hes of the us
forces. of course the owner could be in the big px in the sky
by now...ps i'm in active reserves in ottawa and have found
d history in ottawa of little use. another source is the Cdn
War Museum Curator Victor Suthren check phone book...hope that
gives a few ideas
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
From: NAVNEWS@nctamslant.navy.mil (Navy News Service)
Newsgroups: soc.veterans
Subject: Navy News Service - 20 Nov 92
Date: 23 Nov 1992 23:53:51 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 20 NOV 92 - NAVNEWS 058/92
     Editor's Note
     This Navy News Service message follows NAVNEWS 057/92, DTG
182300Z Nov 92.   NAVNEWS 058/92 is being released as a means of
providing more timely information to the fleet; we will release
news when it is news.
                            - USN - 
NNS273.  Partial List of Names Cleared in Tailhook Probe Provided
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The assistant DoD Inspector General (IG) has
given the Navy a partial listing of naval officers who have been
interviewed concerning the 1991 Tailhook investigation and
determined to bear no culpability with respect to their
investigation. 
     Bureau of Naval Personnel (BUPERS) detailers are attempting to
contact all of these Navy officers and will continue to exhaust all
communication avenues until 100 percent notification is complete.  
     If an officer is not contacted, it is not a reason to be
concerned or to assume guilt.  This is merely the next step in a
multi-phased process to clear those individuals questioned, but not
implicated in the ongoing investigation.  Until the investigation
is completed, names will be provided periodically and similar
notification of officers cleared on any subsequent DoD IG lists
will be conducted.
     Some of the active duty and reserve officers cleared by the
assistant DoD IG supplemental list were selected for promotion in
FY-93.  These have already been sent to the Secretary of the Navy
for certification.  Once certification is completed, a list of
those officers requiring confirmation will be forwarded to the
Senate.  Those few officers not requiring confirmation are being
processed right now for promotion with their original date of rank.
     For officers whose promotions have already been delayed,
actual promotion will be based on their original seniority with
commensurate back pay restored, per CNO message 172209Z Sep 92. 
                               -USN-

Newsgroups: soc.veterans
From: buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY)
Subject: Re: Vietnam Memorial (was Vietnam Moratorium)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:18:20 GMT

This is not really a response to any previous post, but an observation that I
have with regards to the Wall.

I like the wall. Unlike other memorials in Washington, it is personal. It is
something that people can approach and touch. It does not glorify war nor does
it make any judgements on the war. Most memorials that I have seen are the 
traditional soldier standing on a pedestal. In the wall, we have essentially
a blank slate where the people can project their own feelings and emotions 
into the wall. Maya Lin gave us a gift. The gift of a memorial that actually
belongs to and can be touched by anyone.

Charles Buckley        buckley@ucsu.colorado.edu
From: rmt6r@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Roy Matthew Thigpen)
Subject: Re: THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:16:46 GMT



Amen to that, my brothers.

I just hope that we can keep this nation of ours from falling
to pieces behind us.  We need a new mobilization, to fight the
real enemies: corruption, poverty, organized crime, and drugs.
Peace is not fully won, untill we can come home again.
From: djull@Athena.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Reading for Monday November 16
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:12:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46060
Organization: -

Whither can a lover go but to the land of his beloved? And what seeker
findeth rest away from his heart's desire? To the true lover reunion is
life, and separation is death. His breast is void of patience and his
heart hath no peace. A myriad lives he would forsake to hasten to the
abode of his beloved.

Baha'u'llah, _The Hidden Words,_ no. 4 (Persian)

--
David Jull
djull@athena.mit.edu
From: cdp@helios.tcad.ee.ufl.edu (Chetan Parikh)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Unity between Science and Religion
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:18:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46253
Organization: VLSI TCAD Group, University of Florida

Perhaps the following two quotes from the Baha'i Writings themselves
would help in this discussion regarding apparent contradictions
between science and religion:

	"God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he
is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If
religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of
science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the
antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is
superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true
religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith
and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering
and vacillation."
		( Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 181)

	"Much discord and disunion of the world is created by these
man-made oppositions and contradictions. If religion were in harmony
with science and they walked together, much of the hatred and
bitterness now bringing misery to the human race would be at an end.
	"Consider what it is that singles man out from among created
beings, and makes of him a creature apart. Is it not his reasoning
power, his intelligence? Shall he not make use of these in his study
of religion?  I say unto you: weigh carefully in the balance of reason
and science everything that is presented to you as religion. If it
passes this test, then accept it, for it is truth! If, however, it
does not so conform, then reject it, for it is ignorance!
	"Look around and see how the world today is drowned in
superstition and outward forms!"
		(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 144)
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:57:18
Distribution: world
From: ashkon_k@apollo.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Organization: <none>
Subject: Reading for Thursday, November 19, 1992

        "Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can
     behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. 
     The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His
     countenance hath been lifted up upon men.  It behoveth every
     man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet
     of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind,
     on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission,
     and the tokens of His glory.
         Great indeed is this Day!  The allusions made to it in
     all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its
     greatness.  The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine
     Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day.  All the
     divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to
     attain it.  No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His
     Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God's Will,
     than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to
     guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.
         O thou that hast remembered Me!  The most grievous veil
     hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and
     hindered them from hearkening to His call.  God grant that
     the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the
     seal, "the Kingdom is God's", may be stamped upon the brow
     of all its peoples."

                        -Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, P.10
From: seioshan@cae.wisc.edu (Baher Seioshansian)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Chicago Area Events
Date: 8 Nov 92 00:22:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45968
Distribution: world
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison

[The Arabic phrase, Allah'u'Abha, which has appeared in several recent
articles, may be translated as "God is the Most Glorious."  It is
often used as a Baha'i salutation. --rdt]

Allah'u'Abha everyone I just wanted to see if it possible for the
Baha'is of Chicago to post the events that will be held after the
congress.

[The reference is to the 2nd Baha'i World Congress, to be held in New
York City on 23-26 November.  The 1st Congress was in London, April
1963. --rdt]

	thank you all Allah'u'Abha
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
From: Brian T. Schellenberger <bts@unx.sas.com>
Subject: Re: Contradiction with science
Organization: Sun Microsystems of Canada, Inc.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:00:02 GMT


Ken Arromdee writes:
| I still think you're dodging the question.  I've been getting lots of answers
| of the form "well, if you can't reconcile science and religion, try harder".
| I tried harder; now what?  Are you always going to tell me I didn't try hard
| enough, just because I didn't get the answer you expect?
|
| If not, then what do I do after I tried hard enough and still got the answer
| that there's some mistake?

Ok.  If you have rechecked, and you are quite certain that

      a) You understand the science correctly.
      b) You understand the genuine Baha'i scriptures correctly.
and   c) They are in irreconcilable discord.

Then you resign from (or don't join) the Baha'i Fath.  If this happens,
then you have clearly disproven (to yourself) a claim of Baha'u'llah,
Who claims to be infallible.  Therefore, He is wrong, and you cannot in
good conscience accept Him as who He says He is.  Since a Baha'i is
one who accepts Baha'u'llah as Who He says He is (an infallible
Manifestation of God), you cannot be a Baha'i.

However, I don't believe that this situation will occur; or, to be
more precise, I believe that if it occurs, that it will be you who
are wrong.  If I did not believe this, I would not be a Baha'i.

                                           --Brian T. Schellenberger,
                                             SAS Institute Inc.
                                             Cary, NC   USA
                                             (bts@unx.sas.com)
From: Carl Fravel <71610.2560@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Science and Religion
Date: 15 Nov 92 11:20:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46059
Organization: -

Hello friends and visitors!
 
A simple question which I don't see anyone having asked Ken Arromdee yet,
although I may have missed it...
 
Ken, you have expressed the personal opinion that cremation does not
retard the reincorporation of our organic substance into other life
forms.  Can you present some scientific evidence supporting your
opinion?  Can you find research on the matter?
 
Further thoughts...
 
It seems to me that cremation would tend to put small molecules into
the atmosphere, mostly H2O, CO2, NH3, NOx etc, and ash which might
end up in the soil (or urns...).   Burial would probably leave
hydrated and longer organic molecules in the soil (especially if a wood
coffin is used, rather than a stone or crystal one, these being the
three choices available according to Baha'i laws.)
 
It is not obvious to me which would be more readily incorporated into
other life forms in the biosphere.  Clearly the CO2 could be taken
in by plants, but the odds against a particular molecule so doing
would be infinitesimal, I think.  Additionally, doesn't burning of
flesh produce toxic substances, such as carcinogens?
 
It seems to me pretty likely that the larger organic molecules, in a
hydrated context in the soil, would almost immediately begin to be used
by primitive and higher plant forms.  So Abdu'l-Baha's statement may
be very directly compatible with science.
 
And the emphasis that Ken has placed on the one issue of the speed of
absorption into other lifeforms, for which he has not given any scientific
evidence, neglects the "unnatural" point which Abdu'l-Baha makes.
 
It is easy to assert "Religious teaching X conflicts with Scientific fact Y",
but this alone is certainly not science, merely opinion.  It doesn't by
any means disprove this profound principle enunciated by Baha'u'llah
about the harmony of science and religion as two methods for attempting
to understand reality.
 
I don't personally mind of the Baha'i Faith cannot be reconciled with
personal assertions of opinion, even if the person so asserting claims
to be a proponent of science.  If, on the other hand, some clear scientific
proof for the benefits of cremation vs. burial for absorbtion of organics
back into life forms comes along, I would take if very seriously, and
have to go back and try to make some other understanding of the passage
of Abdu'l-Baha.  I'd still arrange my will to be buried,
simply because obedience to Baha'i Law is pretty high on my list of
priorities.
 
Personally, I assume that there are a number of reasons for this law,
and that the important ones might not even be mentioned in the Star of the
West quote.
 
I'm also eager to see if anyone has data on the authenticity of the
original passage.  Has anyone instigated a search for an answer on this yet?
 
One other question for the Baha'is:  is this the only explanation for
this given in the Baha'i texts?  Is it explained in the Kitab'i'Aqdas?
Aren't we all eager to see that soon?
 
Warmly,
 
Carl Fravel
From: deb@spectra.eng.hawaii.edu (David Barrett)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Contradiction with science
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:49:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45966
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Nov9.140838.353@newscan.canada.sun.com>
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>Unfortunately, that does not really answer the question.  What
>happens if the actual religion and science seem _not_ to be accord?
>It's not an answer to point out that the writings say they must be in
>accord, for that's not the question; almost all religions say they
>must be in accord with science.  The question is: if it seems not to
>be in accord, _who_has_made_the_mistake_?

There's a bit of pointing at semantics here than subject discussion.
The response of science and relegion are in accord and the reality of
it may beyond what most humans can understand.  Each group can say
that same thing thing with a different perspective in mind.  The
question of whose right is NOT based upon whether the science OR
religion one of which HAS to be wrong if thereis a conflict.  Science
is not an absolute but an understanding in each one of our minds about
the nature of the real world and although we institutionalize it by
subjective agreement, a pacticular stand on any observation does not
have to be THE STANDARD.  What religion IS in accord with is the
workings of the real universe.  We as human beings may or may not ever
get to the point of agreeing with everything we see as acceptable to
be the WAY of SCIENCE.  The answer of what to believe when the
concepts put forth by current science and "revealed knowledge" (ie
Bible, Baha'i Writings, etc.) seems to conterdict should be the
results of investigation of what specifically is being compared and
your own sense of intuitive and rational deliberations.

>If I am Baha'i and have been taught that bodies should not be
>cremated because the atoms dissipate too fast to enter the ecosystem,
>and my scientific knowledge tells me that this is not so, what should
>my will say?

Recheck your facts and unassumingly try to keep a hypothesis that both
systems may be correct.  Unbiased approach, from my observation as a
scientifically trained observer, is rare in science.  Our self
interests seem to always get in the way.  Truth is not always
agreeable or intuitively obvious, but it usually prevails in spite of
our opinions.

David B
From: Terry Maton <maton@herald.usask.ca>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: From the Baha'i Writings
Date: 20 Nov 92 03:55:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46254
Organization: -

O FRIENDS!

Abandon not the everlasting beauty for a beauty
that must die, and set not your affections on this
mortal world of dust.

Terry Maton
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

INTERNET:   maton@sask.usask.ca   or   maton@herald.usask.ca
FREENET:    ap322@cleveland.freenet.edu

  "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens" -- Baha'u'llah