HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:12:30 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug15.200355.8998@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>The "berserker phenomenon" is a documented fact: sometimes, people under
>extreme stress will acquire super-human strength, and will focus all their
>attention on the task at hand--be it killing, or single-handedly lifting a
>car off a child.

	There is a phenomenon found in carnivorous/omivrous animals which
may have some bearing on the "berserker phenomenon".  Basically all animals
of this type have an ingrained natural urge to kill.  Normally this
stimulates them go go out and hunt for food, but when they are in a
situation where killing is much easier than it would normally be they are
unable to stop killing.  Such conditions have occured so rarely that they
have not evolved an "off switch" for this urge to kill.  Thus when the
killing is easy, predators will go on vast killing sprees until they are
not only stuff to satiation but also physically exhausted.  
	Additionally this phenomenon seems to be amplified by enclosed
spaces or a feeling of confinement (the "fox in the chicken coop"
syndrome).
	This is information I picked up on a course in medieval warfare, it
came from medical journals, but I cannot remember the references.

Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:21:57 GMT
Reply-To: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) says:

>Ah, if only we had a time machine so we could provoke a war between
>the Romans and the Han dynasty Chinese.  With the Romans, we could
>probably gimmick the auguries.  With the Chinese we might gimmick
>the I Ching.  Then we would find out.  As it is we'll just have to
>simulate them.
>--
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
>*
>He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
>
>

If we actually go back and provoke a war between these two empires,
there might never existed the later dynasties in China, nor the Three
Kingdoms, the 16 Kingdoms will followed, and perhaps we are still
be in the Han dynasties. 

As for the Romans, the empire will be fall apart...

My best guesses would be war for about 50 to 100 years and then the
Chinese will try to negotiate as the Roman will do the same, and
a joint 'army' or empire will emerge and perhaps taking over the
little 'empires' and at the same time, both Chinese and Romans will
attacks with surprises to see who 'might' fall first.

In the Han dynasty, the Chinese tends to or better say, like to
'join' forces with other tribes and later 'conquer' them with
surprises attacks... As the same happens in the year 200 A.D. and so
on...

-- 
No one is a failure... Keep up your dream and you will find it!
Ask always WISDOM from God!
Xref: sparky soc.history:7477 soc.culture.nordic:5149
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings (Berserkers, mushrooms,missile weapons)
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:58:12 GMT
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

In article <1992Aug15.200355.8998@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>In article <16iainINNsli@agate.berkeley.edu> tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
>....[ about berserkers and 'shrooms]
>>I would agree with the above, based on my own observations. I've long
>>been sceptical about the mushroom theory. On the other hand, there is
>>a long history of drugs being given to soldiers before battle (Tienanmen
>>Square also, according to rumor).
>
>Yes, there's a long tradition of _stories_ about this. But are they true? I
>notice it's always the enemy that drugs his hapless minions so they attack
>with fanatical frenzy--our boys just have a nip of bourbon to give 'em
>courage.
>

Actually, to give a little balance to the "us & them" mentality, 
Someone plausibly hypothesized in the 60's (Mr. Leary perhaps?) that
a middle eastern cult group used to have ceremonies which
surrounded the eating of bread grown in the area and made a certain
way such that they would actually achieve contact with the other worldly
deities.  The cause was ergot, a wheat fungus indigenous to the area,
which about two millenia later was used in labor inducing drugs and to relieve
migraines by a pharmeceutical company by the name of Sandoz Labs, oh yeah, they
also made something else from ergot which Mr. Leary was interested in, LSD,
although they stopped when too many people began meeting god directly.  The cult
on the other han/d has survived and indeed expanded, now going under the 
umbrella moniker of "christianity"--Oh well, they just don't make those 
wafers like they used to. ;]


>I'd like to hear some corroboration of these stories--until I do, I'm going
>to continue to doubt them. ....

I've nbever seen this one corrborated either, but if you are going to be 
paranoid, you might as well startr at the top, and this one provides for 
all sorts of great speculation...has anybody else heard this, or know its 
source?
Best, 
Rich Rath
:
:stuff deleted
:
>-- 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
>Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:38:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.003304.20295@wam.umd.edu>, yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS) writes...
>In article <12AUG199207590598@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
>>Has this area contributed anything to civilization except trouble?
>>
>  	I hope you didn't really mean the above statement. Did you?




It wasn't a statement; it was a question. Jack Campin answered it,
notwithstanding his additional remarks.


Xref: sparky soc.history:7233 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7873
From: yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS)
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:33:04 GMT

In article <12AUG199207590598@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.214407.10900@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
>>In either case, it's hardly surprising. Remember, Eastern Europe and the
>>Balkans have a long tradition of complex inter-ethnic hate and
>>warfare--including virulent anti-semitism. Add to that the grievances
>
>
>Has this area contributed anything to civilization except trouble?
>
>
  	I hope you didn't really mean the above statement. Did you?

Yiannis Velissarakos

>
>
From: sachs@tanner.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Misconceptions similar to Richard III
Date: 23 Aug 1992 10:14:19 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
NNTP-Posting-Host: tanner.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Misrepresentations

In article <1992Aug23.065141.5607@reed.edu> ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon) writes:

>...The book got me thinking about other historical misconceptions, 
>mysteries, and misrepresentations--particularly in British history. 
>I'm sure there >must be other instances out there, but ...

Misconceptions: too many to list, especially about military
matters.  One influential, non-military one was the Northwest
passage.  A military example is the idea, during WWI, that 
successful offensives could be carried out by convential methods 
(i.e. without tanks) on the Western front, which had profound 
consequences.

Mysteries:  Was Jack the Ripper part of the royal family?

Misrepresentations:  A very important and successful one
was the story that the son of James the second was a fake,
having been smuggled into the room in a warming pan. This
led not only to the glorious revolution but, we may assume,
to "1066 and all that".  Between WWI and WWII there was
a misrepresentation by advocates of bombers (perhaps it was
really a general misconception) that "the bomber will always get
through" ... to wipe out cities.  This led not only to more
fear of Hitler's Germany but also to an overemphasis, when war
broke out, on bombers at the cost of fighters and naval planes.

However, if you want misconceptions, mysteries and
misrepresentations, it is a bad mistake to look at Britain.
They simply cannot compare with most other countries, e.g.
the Romans, Byzantines and Ottoman Turks.  Or, as you can
check, Russian history seems to consist primarily of 
m,m & m.  For example, during the reign of Boris Godunov,
the young czar Dimitry was killed under circumstances that
were (and are) mysterious.  Some years later there there were
insurrections under the aegis of, successively,
a pretender (false Dimtry), after his death a second order
pretender (false false Dimtry), and then a baby misrepresented as the
bogus son of the false false Dimitry by his (bogus) widow
-- or something like that, I don't remember all the twists.
And that is just the straightforward part of Russian history.
The last century has seen a lot more complications than that.
 
Xref: sparky soc.history:7478 soc.culture.yugoslavia:8070
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:16:58 GMT
Followup-To: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Aug18.021105.6689@src.umd.edu>, josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
> Here is a quote from the U.S. Government publication 
> "Yugoslavia: a country study" (call number DR1214.Y83, 1992 edition)
> 
>   The deepest and oldest national rivalry in Yugoslavia was the
>   one between the Serbs and Croats, who despite their shared language
>   possessed different social and value systems and political
>   cultures.  Two sayings illustrated these animosities and the 
>   essential difference in the inherited political styles of both
>   peoples.  The first says: The very way of life of a Serb and Croat
>   is a deliberate provocation to each other.  The second, a
>   self-complimentary Serbian stereotype, says: In a conflict with
>   authority, the Serb reaches for the sword and the Croat for his
>   pen.  The Serbian stereotype refers to the tradition of the _hajduk_,
>   the idealized mountain renegade who responded violently to the
>   oppressive anarchy of the Ottoman Empire during its last two
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   centuries; the Croatian stereotype reflects the cultural influence
>   of responding through the legal system to the Hapsburgs' highly
>   bureaucratized infringements on national and individual freedoms
>   in Croatia.

What is oppressive anarchy? === Al Sparks 
Xref: sparky soc.history:7215 soc.culture.german:5582 alt.war:1754
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.german,alt.war
Subject: Re: Paul Von Hindenburg (Tannenberg reference)
Date: 11 Aug 92 21:12:20 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1992Aug4.172005.19384@nntp.hut.fi>, by c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen):
> The battle of '14 should be called "the battle of the Mazurian lakes"; 

> The main action of the 
> battle was not fought anywhere near the village of Tannenberg: only the German
> GHQ was (perhaps intentionally) placed there.

So what?  Bluecher would not call Waterloo by that name until he died;
he always called it the Battle of Belle Alliance, which has (a) a
nicer sound to it, (b) is very appropriate, and (c) was a hamlet
closer to the battle site than Waterloo, which was "only" the place
where Wellington had his HQ before the battle.  All to no avail; a
battle is called what it is popularly called, and nothing else.  Also,
"Battle of the Mazurian lakes" is both too long and misleading, since
the battle took place neither over the possession of the lakes
themselves, nor for them, they just happened to be around.

-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: dickwin@sequent.com (Dick Winningstad)
Subject: Re: kill files (again)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 01:16:51 GMT

I do not know why you should be criticized for your post on kill
files.  This is not a moderated group so you should be able to say
anything you want and as many times as you want as the defenders of
mutlu keep pointing out.

How about a moderator that limits submissions to three a day?
Not content but quantity.
Until then I welcome any and all articles on how to set up kill files.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+Dick Winningstad                                                    +
+                    Italian Wines are Fine                          +
+          I'd rather be on a Moto Guzzi in eastern Oregon.          +
+          Fourth gear curves at 7000 RPM are the greatest!          +
+dickwin@sequent.com                                                 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: gapickrell@happy.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Victgorian age
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:04:06 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

A couple dyas ago someone posted something about the Victorian
age and it got me thinkning about how the strict ridged
rules got started.  Does anyone nkow?

	-Gary

PS> sorry for the typoes I'm ghaving troulbe with this editor
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Ghost Dance and precedents
Organization: pubs
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:49:41 CDT


I've been reading the history of indigenous Americans (Indians, native
Americans; whatever term we should use).  The tragic stage of the Ghost
Dance and the Wounded Knee massacre is well-known, but I was interested
to read that a very similar religious movement swept the tribes of the
then-West (the areas east of the Mississippi) around 1815 when the main
Indian leader was Tecumseh.  It was the same deal: do this magic dance
and the whites will disappear and we'll get our land back.  These
parallel developments indicate to me that it was the Indians' habits of
thinking, even more than the technological gap, that doomed them.  Are
there other historical examples resembling these two stages?

On a related question, I tried tapping into soc.culture.indian.american,
and it seems to be inactive.  Is there any interest in the subject?  Any
Indians on the net?

Chris Brewster
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen)
Subject: Re: It's useless!
Originator: mark@agnew
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 09:40:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.110446.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsars@acad3.alaska.edu 
Allen R Sparks writes:
>> In article <86527@netnews.upenn.edu>, kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof
>> W. Kniaz) writes:
>>
>> stuff deleted
>>
>> It is relatively easy to write a shell program in UNIX , sending mail
>> to Mutlu, say every 10 minutes.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
>Bad idea.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Also, Mutlu could very well
>be on a server that charges Mutlu money for which he has the right to
>post just about whatever he wants to post, where he wants to post.

I am a relative novice when it comes to computers, yet I haven't seen a
single one of Mutlu's messages for ages. I have however seen a lot of
fools (now including me) bitching about him on the net. If you don't
like it use a kill file, if you can't ask some one who can or preferably
read the appropriate news group perhaps news.announce.newusers. Don't
waste time on soc.history.
Allen Sparks is right the mail bombing idea is stupid and a waste of money

Profuse apologies to those with more self control than myself.

Mark Cohen
cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch

Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: ergot (was beserkers and so forth)
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:41:20 GMT

In article <l#!n5_r.slf@netcom.com>, slf@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher) writes:
>rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug15.200355.8998@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
>>>In article <16iainINNsli@agate.berkeley.edu> tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
>>>....[ about berserkers and 'shrooms]
>>>>I would agree with the above, based on my own observations. I've long
>>>>been sceptical about the mushroom theory.
>
>>Actually, to give a little balance to the "us & them" mentality, 
>>Someone plausibly hypothesized in the 60's (Mr. Leary perhaps?) that
>>a middle eastern cult group used to have ceremonies which
>>surrounded the eating of bread grown in the area and made a certain
>>way such that they would actually achieve contact with the other worldly
>>deities.  The cause was ergot, a wheat fungus indigenous to the area,
>                                  ^^^^^
>
>Rye, actually.  It's also been postulated that the Salem witch
>hysteria was caused by this.

actually rye and other cereal grasses--the only place I've ever seen it
is on corn, and its ugly--does not look like something good to
eat at all, and its effects include cramps spasms and a form of gangrene,
and as a hallucinogen it requires massive processing which probably
would not happen without a lab--but maybe it could ;}--I have
never heard the Salem bit before--I have to give a lecture
this fall on the subject, (Salem--not ergot)
 and I sure would appreciate it if you let me know
 where you picked up the information--if there is something I could look up...
 	thanks, 
Rich Rath
:
:
:
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What is it with the Balkans?
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:54:13 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) wrote:
> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
>> In either case, it's hardly surprising. Remember, Eastern Europe and the
>> Balkans have a long tradition of complex inter-ethnic hate and
>> warfare--including virulent anti-semitism.

It still has a bloody long way to go before equalling the viciousness of
American race relations, which includes the total extermination of whole
Indian tribes, castration as a means of social control on slave plantations,
and the Civil War...


> Has this area contributed anything to civilization except trouble?

  the development of humanist figurative painting in mediaeval Serbia

  the first durable democracy in modern historic times, the republic of
  Dubrovnik

  the most determined resistance to fascism anywhere, leaving 10% of the
  population dead

  the Cyrillic script and the Christianization of the whole Slavic world
  (Cyril and Methodius started in Bulgaria)

  the recorder (invented somewhere in the Balkans in the Middle Ages)

  some of the best folk music in Europe

  Ataturk (born in Salonika)

  the New Zealand wine industry (created by Dalmatian emigrants)

  the Non-Aligned Movement (Tito's idea)

  field theory (Roger Boscovich in the 17th century)

  Tesla (a Serb born in Croatia)

  Mohorovicic (geology: structure of the mantle), Mihailovic (climatology:
  the ice age cycle)

  in literature: Ivo Andric, Miroslav Krleza, Milorad Pavic, ...

But mainly, it's produced millions of people who deserve better than to be
fucked over by great powers for living on a desirable bit of real estate
and then subjected to patronizing racism like the above.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Xref: sparky soc.history:7430 alt.war.civil.usa:671
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Question on 1783 Treaty of Paris, regarding South Carolina
Date: 17 Aug 1992 04:58:25 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <1992Aug17.042244.105@hubcap.clemson.edu>,
trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight) writes:

>I read in alt.war.civil.usa that the Treaty of Paris recognized the
>states of Georgia and South Carolina as sovereign, independent states.
     [deletions]
>could someone please post (or e-mail) the
>text of this portion of the document?  I would very much appreciate
>it.  I realize that this was a particularly chaotic period in the
>history of the U.S., but I am curious about why the two states
>were considered independent in 1783.  Thanks in advance...

Article I of the Treaty of Paris 1783 reads:

   "His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz.
New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island, and Providence
Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and
Georgia, to be free, sovereign and independent States; that he treats
with them as such, and for himself, his heirs and successors,
relinquishes all claims to the Government, proprietory and
territorial rights of the same, and every part thereof."

This article is the only time the individual states are mentioned as
such.  Note that ALL the states are referred to as "free, sovereign
and independent."  This was perfectly acceptable at that time, since
the U.S. was governed under the Articles of Confederation.  Article
II of the A of C states: "Each State retains its sovereignty, freedom
and independence...."
--
Justin M. Sanders    "Politics, like prison, seems to impart some 
Dept. of Physics        dubious skills to those who serve too  
Kansas State Univ.        many terms." -- Joseph Sobran