HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbian elections
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:22:31 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Dec22.151602.20807@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

>As an example, "Do istrage vase ili nase" ("Until extermination yours
>of ours", by Serbian lawyer Nikola Stojadinovic) .................
> Josip

First, isn't it Stojanovic, not Stojadinovic?
Second, and much more important I have a rather strong feeling that 
you know this article only indirectly.  You are just repeating what you 
have found into Banac, Tudjman, Tasovac, Aralica-group articles.
According to Laza M. Kostic, this article is about strong inferiority 
complex Croats used to feel toward Serbs, for they were not able to 
form state.  Similar opinions were found in German analysis of the
situation in NDH during the WWII, and, to some extent could be backed 
by earlier authors like F. Miklosic and by Starcevic's work.
My impression is that you are again trying to impress ignorant 
readers by title of this article, which was proven as a correct one in WWII,
again according to Germans.  
I'd like you to post the whole article, so we could read it. I was not
able to find it. Anyhow, nothing could be compared with Starcevic and
his hatred toward Serbs, so you are always loosing there. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:39:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.071739.7477@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>
>Oh,  come of it,  you now better than that.  You have read the Encyclopedia
>Britannica estimates of 150 000 - 180 000 in todays Greece about thousand
>times by now;  and the Todor Simovski's papers on tracking the Macedonian
>population of Aegean Macedonia vilage-by-village since 1903 (you posted parts
>of them), comming up with about 250 000 Macedonians remaining;  and the US
>State Department reports;  and the EC reports (which you posted.)  Proofs are
>wasted on you.


Oh, come on. You know from Harvard encyclopedia that the Skopjian
ethnicity was invented 30 years after the greek lands were liberated.
It didn't have time to be exported yet.
Greece, EC and State Dept speak for 30-50,000 slav-speakers of greek
discent, like those who are coming now from Russia.


>Is that what Hristos Sideropoulos and Tashko Bulev (or is it Tasos Bulis,)  on
>trial for saying that they are Macedonians,  are sayng,  or is it just your
>opinion.


And I say that I'm Meshia, but I don't ask for official verification
through legally registered organizations.


>They are the natives,  not the immigrants,  their ancestors have lived there
>for 14 centuries.  It was your grandfather that immigrated there,  not theirs.


And the Macedonians are natives there for 24 centuries. It was your
greatgrandfather that invaded there and destroyed everything, not theirs.


Gr
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Hitler's plan realized
Date: 21 Dec 1992 12:36:33 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu
Keywords: yugoslavia, partition, destruction

In article <Dec.21.03.04.28.1992.18190@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>
>IN 1941 HITLER PARTITIONED YUGOSLAVIA; IN 1991 GERMANY WAS FIRST ALSO
>
[1941 partition of Yu among Germany, Italy, Bulgaria and Hungary described]
>
>I thought this could be interesting...

The history is quite interesting, especially since it seems to be the
official Yu version from Belgrade.  Are you saying the Serbs are
expecting to realize Hitler's plan?  It seems like they had their own
plan.  I wonder how (and whether) the Serbs planned to partition
Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia-Hercegovina, had they succeded in
conquering them.  The various Krajinas seem much more vaguely defined
than the Axis administrative regions, but then the Axis powers did
things differently: first they conquered, and then they partitioned.

>  With hopes for peace

Such hopes fade fast when blasted with subject lines like "Hitler's
plan realized"

Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: zoran@ee.uts.edu.au (Zoran Markovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Madam VW, Bill, Uncle Sam and EC
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:14:00 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
NNTP-Posting-Host: mozart.ee.uts.edu.au
Summary: Madam VW, Bill, Uncle Sam and EC
Keywords: war

>wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:

>>I am rather afraid that there will soon be a serious escalation of the
>>fighting in Bosnia-Hercegovina, possibly spreading to Kosovo and even
>>Serbia, given the extremely belligerent recent statements by Dobrica
>>Chosich, Zhivota Panich, and Radovan Karadzhich, and the text of the
>>US letter of last week.

>I would hope the US letter implies an immediate response, and not
>another extended embargo with a delayed ultimatum.
>In which case I think the Serbs might be a little reluctant to
>rape Kosovo, though they might think "if we just do it quickly".
>{{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
>{{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
>{{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
>{{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}

**********************************************************************
Madam VW has set up her tent and her cristal ball and is at it again.
But, she is a cheat.  Even little kids know that there
will be trouble in Kosovo, and perheps even a civil (political) war in
Serbia.  So, save your money.  Pass by the lady astrologist's tent this
Christmas.

P.S.  If you are a student from Serbia in the US, Madam VW predicted during
one of her previous sessions that you may flunk Maths with her associate, 
Her Professor VW at Washington State.  Then, as punishment, you may be
sent back to Yugoslavia to fight in the war (agianst fellow Americans
I presume).
**********************************************************************

To Bill:

Just bomb the suckers Bill before they start the same thing in Kosovo.

The only problem is that if you kill all the bastards there may be a lack
of work in the PR business, news business, armaments business, etc.  It
could even stall the recovery from the recesion.

Or, maybe not.  There will always be another nation for the next "Hate Week".
Another barbaric nation that the developed countries have to bring in line
of the New World Order.  And the cycle repeats itself.  Coming to your town
next week.

Good Luck to you and wellcome to our Orwellian, Chomskian Brave New World
of 1993.

Zoran
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:01:33 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>>Another point: the secession of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia&Herzegovina,
>>and Macedonia, have in fact strengthened the regime of Milosevic, and the war
>>has prolonged his and SPS's reign. Had the people of all of the republics
>>united against criminal leadership, today we could have had a democratic
>>country where no nation dominates, but all help each other in building up
>>economy and society. This way, each of the republics is much worse off,
>>much further from any democracy, prosperity, and just laws.

>Here I have to object. Please describe in what ways you think Slovenia
>if far away from any democracy and just laws. Yes, Slovenia is not as
>prosperous as it used to be, but so is no Eastern European or ex-Soviet 
>country today. And Slovenia seems to be doing better than most of them.

The Slovenian government decision to secede from Yugoslavia was
maybe good for Slovenian people, but it was nevertheless immoral.
It was immoral because as anybody in Yugoslavia at that time (1990-1991)
could have told you, they were perfectly aware that their secession is
enabling the Secession of Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia.
And they were perfectly aware that these other secessions were leading
straight into the war.

So, they didn't do anything bad. They have "just" opened the door to
hell. They can't really be blamed by any national and international
laws, but their decision was like: "Here we go guys: Hang in there!"
If that is moral... It is just as if somebody knew about the crime to
be commited, knew that they could have prevented it, but still walked away.

(Sorry Andrej if this hurts you. I am not blaming Slovenian people, just
the ones in POWER).

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: Chrys Pelegris <chrysp@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: MILS?!
X-To: ALL
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:55:40 GMT

Hmm.. maybe its a problem on my end, but I don't think so.

Did anyone bomb MILS headquarters or something?  I've been waiting for the
lastest Skopjian propaganda, for weeks now, nothing.

Its like taking the comics section away from the newspaper, I want MILS
back!

Either send your responses in email or publically, publically would be better
because I'm sure other people are wondering the same thing..

Sigh..

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chrys Pelegris  |  ===__-+-                          WWIVNet:35@4650
    Toronto Canada  | Internet: chrysp@zooid.guild.org   FidoNet: *N/A*
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * "I drank what?!?" * Socrates
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Comments on elections
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:11:15 GMT
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland

Excerpts from Neue Zuercher Zeitung, December 23, 1992.

Greetings, Srdjan Mitrovic

===============================

The representant of radical national Albanian and Muslim parties
will be very glad about  Milosevic's victory. Openly or secretly
they wished his victory in the expectation that it will be followed
with a foreign military intervention which would allow them to
attain their unfulfiled goals. The same idea has been promoted
by the Zagreb newspaper "Novi Vjesnik" in their edition from  last Saturday.
A victory of the present people in power would be in "interest of
all Croats and other victims of the greatserbian aggression". The danger is,
that in case of a success of the opposition and their "imported circus clown
Panic",
the "world" would continue to accept empty promises.

================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Another war monger
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 00:57:26 GMT

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Muris Cicic (cicic@cc.uow.edu.au) writes:
>>I genuinelly would like to see you being raped, and then call on you for peace
>>with your rapist.  I also would like your city being destroyed, and your
>>family killed, and your house full of 'innocent' people.  I want you starve
>>to death, live without water, electricity, and be a target for sniper.  And
>>call on you for peace, peace!  I wish all your friends being either killed or
>>flattered worldwide, in camps and shelters, with all they have on their backs.
>>And tell you: peace, peace!

>Yes, we really want to you say so. Because if you are going to
>adopt the same lowly behaviour as your aggressor, you would be
>no better. You would only reduce yourself to the same lowly
>creature. Then there will only peace in Bosnia-Hercegovina when
>there is silence and everyone is dead, and the land full of
>slit body parts left as the graveyard over the Serbocroatic
>people.

Who said we will adopt the same lowly behaviour as our aggressor?
We are only sick and tired off all your paternalisam and false pacifisam,
whereas the cleansing, raping, killing, are underway.  You don't
understand the real nature of the criminals attacking Bosnia and 
Herzegovina, and the political forces behind them.  The only language
they understand and accept is power: if they are to face eqal power on
the other side, the war would stop immediately.  At least half of Serbian 
criminals will escape to Serbia, from where they came lured with promise
to rape, loot, and do whatsoever being rewarded for that. 

You have to understand that the only solution of the problem is military
defeat of Serbia.  As in the case of naci-Germany, you mustn't 
negotiate with killers and criminals.

>And then people are asking for more weapons? No way!

Each single sentence of that sort means additional number of killed,
raped and cleansed non-Serbian people at the teritory of ex-Yugoslavia.
You are apparently aware that every day people are being killed in
Sarajevo, Gradacac, Srebrenica, Tuzla, Brcko...  You deny their right to
survive, for you know that their persecutors are very well armed, and they
are defenseless.  What you recommend to them is peace?  Well, thank you
very much for advise, and let me tell you:  I wish your daughter, mother, or
sister to be raped in front of you, by your neighbour, and wish you to
negotiate with the same neighbour about the deed.  Answer me something 
hypocritical again, please.

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.

Muris

P.S.  We are not SerboCroatic people, you know that.  We are not aggressive,
we are unarmed, we are poor, we are destroyed, and we are desperate.  What is
left, is our soul.  And we will liberate ourselves, with or without your
support.  Your cruelty will be remebered.  It is easy to recognise the Serbian
stupidities on this network, the different matter is real help for humanity.
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:59:39 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Milane Stoajnovicu,

Please stop!
The one who cannot see what HIS leaders, rulers, warmongers are
doing, and can see only the others, adds to this war, no matter
what "rights" one defends. ALL people have rights which have been
grossly violated, yes, in the greatest extent by the ones who do it
in the name of "Serbian rights"!
So please stop! 

Happy New Year
and let's have a bit more humanity!

with hopes for 

        __________  __________   _______          _________   __________
       /   ___   / /  _______/  /   __  |        /  ____  /  /  _______/
      /   /  /  / /  /         /   /  | |       /  /   /_/  /  /
     /   /__/  / /  /___      /   /___| |      /  /        /  /___
    /   ______/ /   ___/     /   _____  |     /  /        /   ___/
   /   /       /   /        /   /     | |    /  /    __  /   /
  /   /       /   /_____   /   /      | |   /  /____/ / /   /_____
 /___/       /_________/  /___/       |_|  /_________/ /_________/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Shane                               pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10269 soc.culture.europe:10806
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: UN Bid to halt spread of War [Macedonia]
Date: 26 Dec 92 11:16:52 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

David E. Latane (dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu) writes:
>While it is true that Greece does not have a "veto" in the EC (in the
>legal sense that the US has a veto on the Security Council of the UN)
>it is mere quibbling to deny that Greek opposition has functioned as
>a defacto veto of the recognition of the former S.F.R. of Macedonia
>by the E.C. No Greek opposition, no problem with recognition.

Since issues on foreign politics has to be taken in consensus in
the EC, Greece has a de facto veto.

But of course, Greece can not prevent the other member states from
individually recognizing. But of course such an act, would be a
severe blow against a united EC foreign policy. But since the EC
countries in the long run cannot let Balkan sentiments control 
their foreign policy, it seems that this is how it will end anyway.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
From: bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Yugoslavs - a non-existent nation.
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:28:29 GMT
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Research Program

pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

>You're disillusioning yourself if you think otherwise; we are not the same
>people.  Serbs could never butcher a million people the way the Croats did
>during WWII. 


Not for lack of effort.  Maybe the Serbs could take some lessons in
slaughtering a population from the Croats, and the two groups could
celebrate their commonality in newly cleansed Serbo-Croatian Bosnia?

Nobody seems to think they do anything wrong, do they?
What a bunch of saints.
-- 
{{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
{{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
{{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
{{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}
From: mch@doc.ic.ac.uk (Mike C Holderness)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Families of the warrmongers
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 2 Jan 1993 20:33:24 -0000
Organization: Dept Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: swan.doc.ic.ac.uk

Ana wrote:
> Tudjman's father killed his wife and commited suicide...
> Milosevic's parents and an uncle commited suicides...
> Karadjic's father was in jail for 20 years for rape and murder of his own
> niece...
A
Very interesting (not a trace of irony here). 
Does anyone have, um, references?

=mike= mch@doc.ic.ac.uk =
Look, if anyone wants me to have opinions on their behalf, they have to pay.A
>nterey
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: Reality versus History.
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:30:16 GMT


In article <1992Dec31.180715.4681@cas.org> vkb57@cas.org () writes:
>
>                                The notoriety of the strugle of the
>Macedonians for liberation at the turn of the century and the slogan
>"Macedonia for the Macedonians,"  made it well known throughout the world
>(except possibly in Greece,  where these news may have been considered
>subversive.)


Did the slogan "Macedonia for the Macedonians" mean only slavs of
Macedonia? You your self have said that it meant all the different
peoples living in Macedonia. This was the only way to politically
unite a totally heterogeneous populace against the Otomans.

From your argument comes clearly the truth: That the term "Macedonian"
in 1910 meant a geographic unit and its inhabitants; no ethnicity
whatsoever.


Gr

PS: How mixed was Macedonian population in 1910? Look the greek one:
    Religiously:
    2/3 christians, 1/3 muslims, (1/20 jews).
    Linquistically:
    1/3 slav-speakers, 1/4 greek-speakers, 1/4 turk-speakers
    and the rest 1/6 vlach, albanian, spanish-speakers together.
    Ethnically:
    1/2 greeks, 1/4 turks, 1/5 Bulgarians, 1/20 jews.

    Not to mention that religion, language and ethnic boundaries
    were all overlapping. All the entries of the 3-D tensor-matrix
    had numerous members.

    So for whom was the slogan "Macedonia for Macedonians"?
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10263 soc.culture.croatia:246
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: : Yugoslavs - a non-existent nation.
Date: 26 Dec 92 06:10:33 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

>In article <bill.725142509@castor> bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:

>>Nobody seems to think they do anything wrong, do they?

>This is not unique to the Balkans you know...

>>What a bunch of saints.

>Somehow I sense a racist (strict definition of the word) tone to your 
>posting.  One question though Bill.  What happened to the Indian Nation
>in what is now the U.S.A.?  Alive and well it ain't.

Bill probably has as much responsibility for the killing off the
American Indians, as you, Joe, have for the killing in the WWII and
now.

Joe, this is a bit in the style: "attack is the best defence", ne?
In the same vein, but much more ferrocious, some people are hoping
to "cover up" for the atrocities done by Ustashi (in the sense: not
all Croatians) in the WWII, by pointing to the more immediate
horrors done by the so called "serbian forces" (or Chetniks, if that
sounds better, i.e. not all Serbs). Unfortunatelly, one horror doesn't
justify another, and the other way arround, one horror cannot excuse
another.

I hope you don't really wish that the American Indians start the
war against US ALL here in the USA and Canada!

>Who is a saint...

As a nation, as a religious group, nobody. But there are many more
good, normal people among each group, then extreme pathological types.
Unfortunatelly, they have taken over for now.


>/Joe Blazic

Happy New Year and Winter Holidays, Joe, and
with hopes for 

        __________  __________   _______          _________   __________
       /   ___   / /  _______/  /   __  |        /  ____  /  /  _______/
      /   /  /  / /  /         /   /  | |       /  /   /_/  /  /
     /   /__/  / /  /___      /   /___| |      /  /        /  /___
    /   ______/ /   ___/     /   _____  |     /  /        /   ___/
   /   /       /   /        /   /     | |    /  /    __  /   /
  /   /       /   /_____   /   /      | |   /  /____/ / /   /_____
 /___/       /_________/  /___/       |_|  /_________/ /_________/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Shane                               pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 28 Dec 92 11:21:06 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>The Slovenian government decision to secede from Yugoslavia was
>maybe good for Slovenian people, but it was nevertheless immoral.
>It was immoral because as anybody in Yugoslavia at that time (1990-1991)
>could have told you, they were perfectly aware that their secession is
>enabling the Secession of Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia.
>And they were perfectly aware that these other secessions were leading
>straight into the war.

So Slovenia should not have seceded because Croatia was not able
to handle their secession properly? This is an argument I have
severe difficulties to accept. Each country is responsible for
what they do, but not stupidies other countries might do.

I also notice that you contradict my statement that Slovenia is
democratic state, although you claimed otherwise in another article.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10235 soc.culture.europe:10707