From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:36:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <12405@inews.intel.com>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) 
writes:
> In article <1992Jul21.162311.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> 
> holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>>Barbara Jordan has gone on record making anti-male (not anti-sexist or
>>anti-patriarchy, but anti-male) statements.
> 
> Do you have any examples of this? 

The exact quote will take time to get, but a paraphrase is that men are
constitutionally incapable of the level of caring and nurturance that women are
capable of.

> I have heard this accusation. I suspect her
> anti-male statements are much less in number than the anti-female statements
> from any of the male congressional reps. 

So what?  Are you suggesting that her male colleagues are models for emulation?

> I suspect a lot of this is just
> that a lot of people want the oppressed to act like Martin Luther King and
> instead they act like Malcolm X. 

You'd be dead wrong if you classified me as one such.  Ask me what I think of
Ice-T's latest album some time.

>>Have you read any of the works of Barbara Walker?  In _Skeptical Feminist_,
>>she calls for a matriarchal society in which social and political power is
>>placed in the hands of women, and in which Goddess worship is used as a social
>>control to keep men under the control of women.
> 
> Yeah, but do you really think this would happen? Some of this goes back to
> the days of kings and subjects. Subjects could say "kill the king" because any
> good king knew it was a joke. But the king couldn't say kill the subjects,
> because that wasn't a joke. That was real, see what I'm saying? If there is
> equality, then things are different, but there isn't equality now, is there?

You asked for examples of feminists (I believe the word you used was
"EXTREMIST", I can check if you like) pushing something other than equality. 
That is what I have presented.  If you want to argue that it is OK for them to
do it, that's another discussion altogether.

> On a related issue, some people have speculated that early Greece was
> matriarchal and the men were forced to worship the Goddess and consult the
> elder matriarch for important decisions like who to marry. The theory goes
> that the men got sick of this and subverted the Goddess by turning her into
> a Goddess of war and the rest was HIStory, as he says. Who knows, maybe women 
> do have a vicious side and have just been pretending to be sweet all these 
> years, I just don't see it.

I've never been impressed by the arguments made in support of this theory.

> Haven't read it. Can't say as I see it as a serious threat. The concept of
> men=death and women=life goes back to the Paleolithic and I can see some
> sense in it, but to say that justifies who is master and who is slave is
> silly. The bottom line is that women make our children, but they need us, or
> at least our sperm to become mothers. And I suspect we can lend a hand in
> the child rearing process. We need each other. This master/slave stuff is
> really sickening to me, in any form, with the exception of electronic.

My concern is that I do not trust them to stop when the pendulum is even.

> 
>>Have you seen the latest issue of Green Egg?  A fellow by the name of Bird
>>Brother has called for men to surrender all policy making power to women.
> 
> I don't know the details but would that be like having a woman for President?
> Or a woman for a boss?

It would mean only having a woman for President, Vice President, entire
Congress, entire city, state, local gov't.  It  would mean men being excluded
from these positions.

> Yeah, I think I hear you. I agree, but I'm not so sure so many men are
> prepared to give up things like the glass ceiling. The bottom line is that
> there is a lot for men to give up. I don't think a lot of men are
> interested in that kind of deal. Isn't that like admiting defeat? Wouldn't
> that be weak? Isn't it easier to yell reverse descrimination?

Admitting defeat?  Depends on what you think the battle is.

> Well, besides the obvious like abortion and female things?

Any pregnannt man should have the right to an abortion.

> I like it. But we've got a long way to go, don't we?

Yup.

> And I'm not to crazy
> about the war analogy, but some things you just have to fight for, that's
> what Malcolm X would say.

I use the war analogy because it accurately describes what I am seeing.
 
> Yeah, but that's very unlikely, isn't it? I could see the possibility of
> having representatives that don't represent us and can't balance a budget,
> but that's what we have now, right? I suppose we could have a VP who bakes
> cookies instead of plays golf all the time.

Are you familiar with pre-1920 America? 
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
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