From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/Noldor power
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 01:51:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.193929.21507@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Thompson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.153157.9218@cs.ucla.edu> gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>>Jim Chokey says that he does not believe that hobbits fit in the
>>Silmarillion.  I'd like to point out that hobbits (halflings) are mentioned
>>in the Silmarillion, but not in the Quenta Silmarillion.
>Sure, but Chris Tolkien points out in the Silmarillion's preface that "Of the
>Rings of Power and Third Age" and "Alkallabeth" (whatever) should be
>considered "separate works", or some such.

Lucky for me, I brought the Silmarillion in, so I can quote this
section here:

          The book, though entitled as it must be The Silmarillion,
     contains not only the Quenta Silmarillion, or Silmarillion
     proper, but also four other short works.  The Ainulindale and
     Valaquenta, which are given at the beginning, are indeed closely
     associated with The Silmarillion; but the Akallabeth and Of the
     Rings of Power, which appear at the end, are (it must be
     emphasised) wholly separate and independent.  They are included
     according to my father's explicit intention; and by their
     inclusion the entire history is set forth from the Music of the
     Ainur in which the world began to the passing of the Ringbearers
     from the Havens of Mithlond at the end of the Third Age.

From this I think it is safe to conclude that the Akallabeth and Of
the Rings ... are part and parcel of the "history" of Ea and all of
its inhabitants, even if they are not strictly a part of the work
called the Quenta Silmarillion.

Anyway, that is not really my point.  Trivially, I can say that
hobbits don't fit into the Quenta Silmarillion because they aren't
mentioned there.  (I can say this of lots of other creatures, lands,
etc.)  I don't see what this buys us.  Hobbits are not important to
the Quenta Silmarillion because the part they play in the "history" of
Ea does not take place until the Third Age.

>Second, while I'm doing my first post to this group.  This group inspired me
>to read LOTR, Silmarrillion, and Unfinished Tales for the first time in 10+
>years.  One thing that really confuses me is, for want of a better phrase,
>the hierarchy of power amongst the races.  In particular, I gather that the
>Maiar, who are of the same race (order?) as the Valar, should be thought of
>as being more powerful than any of Iluvatar's children, in particular any
>elves.  Yet Feanor almost fights off, as I recall, several Balrogs
>simultaneously (and Glaurung?); Glorfindel (the first one) destroys the chief
>of the Balrogs.  On the other hand, Gandalf/Olorin, a pretty high Maia, is
>terrified by a single Balrog, and destroyed by it.  I know Gandalf is
>limited as an Istari to show his full power, but on the other hand it seems
>weird for the Valar to allow him to get in a position where he's in single
>combat with a Balrog yet not allow him to use all he's got, as it were.

Recall that Feanor, Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Gil-galad, and Elendil all
lost their "lives" (the previous four's spirits presumably went to
the halls of Mandos) from battle with one of the Valar or Maiar.
Recall also that both Morgoth and Sauron used a great deal of their
native power on other creatures or items (e.g. Morgoth gave a great
deal of his native power to Ungoliant and to his servants, and Sauron
put a great deal of his power into the Ring and used it to direct the
activities of the Ringwraiths).  The Maiar and Valar may start out
more "powerful" than any of the Children of Iluvatar, but in the
course of time, if they expend their power they may be overcome by
less powerful creatures.

I believe Feanor and Fingolfin recklessly went into battle with their
foes.  If they'd thought a little they'd have realized it was foolish
to go into direct combat with them.  (Gandalf realizes this.)
Fingolfin was pretty desperate, so perhaps we should forgive him.

I don't believe Glaurung was a Maia, yet arguably, he is more powerful
than any of the Children of Iluvatar.  Yet, Turin defeats him by
killing him while he is asleep.  This would also suggest that a more
powerful creature may be caught "off-guard" (another example of this
is Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep, although she didn't kill him).

I believe what makes the Valar and Maiar more powerful than the
Children of Iluvatar (in general) is that each has, to a certain
extent, mastery over the substance or Arda.  It seems that to use this
power for ill purposes (e.g. controlling other creatures) causes one
to lose it, and thereby become more susceptible to injury and/or
"death" by one of the Children of Iluvatar.

What made you think that Gandalf did not use his full power to defeat
the Balrog?  For that matter, what makes you think that Gandalf is a
powerful Maia (since he himself claims that he fears Sauron in
Unfinished Tales)?  I think that Eonwe and Arien are better examples
of "powerful Maiar" (with respect to Sauron or Morgoth).

>So, at any rate, I'm wondering if others have thoughts about this.  Are the
>most powerful Noldor more powerful than Maiar?  Actually, I find Tolkien's
>whole notion of power confusing or inconsistent , sometimes it seems this
>great, mysterious ability to control others (Sauron, past the first age, acts
>almost completely through surrogates), sometime it seems to mean having a
>great weapon (ax, bow, sword) of some sort.  Having Fingolfin (?) and Melkor,
>both depicted as having great "power" in non-physical ways, fight in a
>straight sword-and-shield fight, seems strange.

I would say that in general, power can be either contained within
the creature, or amplified by some other creature (e.g. Morgoth giving
Ungoliant power), or amplified by the use of a weapon (e.g. Merry
wounding the Witch-king with the blade of the Barrow-downs).

--gregbo