From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Visserian the revisionist" and the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 18:34:04 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <visser.727850934@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

+>Well, you have joined the cripples and revisionists on the edge of the herd. 

>	And you are out there totally alone.  Living in so much fear

Look who is back? Hey "Visserian" of ASALA/SDPA/ARF, people will think 
that you are just some looney howling in the wires. Now, where is 
your non-existent list; here is mine. During the First World War and 
the ensuing years - 1914-1920, the Armenian Dictatorship through a 
premeditated and systematic genocide, tried to complete its 
centuries-old policy of annihilation against the Turks and Kurds 
by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest 
from their 1,000 year homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

>	You claim that 2.5 million have died, and yet you cannot present
>numbers that add to that total.  Your own source, McCarthy does not

Tell me "visserian", were you high on "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" when you wrote
that drivel? What a crook...

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."

            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 

 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Now wait, there is more. As for the numbers, I do have a copy of 
a demographic history on the question of the numbers which was 
published by a major American university press, that of New York 
University, copyright 1983. Its author, Prof. Justin McCarthy, is 
chairman of the history department at the University of Louisville in 
Kentucky, and a scholar whose expertise in this subject is so 
universally recognized by his peers that he was chosen to write the 
entry on 'demography' in the major reference work in the field of 
Middle Eastern studies, "The Encyclopedia of Islam." Nor has his 
expertise been ignored by the U.S. Government. Professor McCarthy holds 
perhaps the unique honor of having held a National Science Foundation 
'national needs post-doctoral fellowship in demography' and a National 
Endowment for the Humanities 'senior fellow' grant in history. 
Now, here are your homework problems for this week.

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

And enjoy it.

#Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Jan3.113544.2334@news.columbia.edu>
 
In article <1993Jan2.195724.24591@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.113733.1651@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu 
>(Vedat  Dogan) responded to article <1992Dec31.191413.9962@urartu.sdpa.org>  
>dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) and wrote:
>
>[DD] (Vedat  Dogan) wrote:
>
>[VD]  you are humiliated on this matter because you were not aware that 
>[VD]  I had already taken the words from the same book and same paragrapf 
>[VD]  you 'quoted' when you were 'advising' me to get this book.. 
>
>Total Bull! I have no idea what you are taking about. Below I have enclosed 
>the entire page that is easily verified by anybody wishing to take the time 
>to. I have no idea what paragraph you quoted from, but it certainly was not 
>in the paragraph I refer to.
 
   If you read the below you will find out..You will find out that it
  is certainly from the same page and same paragraph..then you will have a
  good idea what I am talking about..
 
>
>[VD]  My point is still here:
>[VD]          YOU didn't quote exactly and completely?..
>[VD] 
>[VD]  will you correct it?
>[VD]          
>[VD]  If not, the 'quotation' below
>[VD] 
>[VD]       "...the terrible holocaust of 1915, when an unknown number
>[VD]        of Turks perished."
>[VD]  
>[VD]  will stand here... 
> 
>You have an unfortunate view of the world and its documentation.
 
  don't rush..please be patient to see how reality will show up ..
 
>
>And I will repeat my claim:
>
>The point of all this, sir, is that Bernard Lewis never said Armenians killed 
>2.5 million of anything. Turkish Genocide Apology has posted many times on 
>UseNet that Bernard Lewis did state such revisionism of history. You have 
>failed to show that Bernard Lewis stated that Armenian killed 2.5 million 
>anything. Thus, we have both demonstrated that the posting of the Cosar-Argic-
>Mutlu revisionist machine are libelous and fraudulent. 
> 
>
>[VD] 'an unknown number of turks perished', which Bernard Lewis states in his 
>[VD] book, does not contradict any number claimed by the other turkish 
>[VD] netters..
>[VD] 
>[VD]  They used his book as a source for an event in which an unknown number
>[VD]  of turks were killed by armenians, not for the numbers..
>[VD]  For the numbers, there are other sources they use.. 
>[VD] 
>[VD]  Please prove your claim that they quoted from B.Lewis' book in their 
>[VD] article for the NUMBER of Turks (2.5 million) killed by armenians...
>
>What a weasel! I never said there was a quote by the revisionist you are
>attempting to join forces with, I said Bernard Lewis was misrepresented on 
>UseNet -- JUST AS YOU HAVE!
 
 they never said that B.Lewis gave the NUMBER of Turks killed by armenians..
 It is just what you understand when you read -not what is written.. 
 
>
>[VD]  in your proof, Mr.Davidian, use their quotations for the NUMBERS taken
>[VD]  from B.Lewis' book, please -not from your 'guess'..
....
..
>[claim] of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
>[claim] This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
>[claim] and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
>[claim] Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
>[claim] Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
>[claim] Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
>....
>[claim] Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
>[claim] others.
>
>
>We are told that Bernard Lewis has "proven" above statement which includes the 
>2.5 million figure. What I shall include, in the following quote is what 
>Bernard Lewis stated on the subject, which is not what the above claim states
>he has "proved".
 
 as I said -not from your guess please..I know you don't want to understand 
 what I mean, but I will try one more time...In the list above there are
 plenty of the sources..There is no need for every book or author to give
 explicitly any number..Some book includes only events, some of them details,
 the others numbers etc..
 clear enough..
 
>
>The following is the entire page, where the quote in question is found in the
>Second Edition of Bernard Lewis's _The Emergence of Modern Turkey_, 1968,
>Oxford University Press, London, Oxford, New York, page 356, for it is easier 
>to find and verify than the 1961 First Edition. The entire page is as follows:
 
 
  let's see..
 
>
>---------------------------- start lewis.quo -------------------------
>
>"356          The Emergence of Modern Turkey
>
>Christian and Imperial principles enabled the powers of Europe to intervene on
>their behalf, supporting their claims both to citizenship and to secession. In 
...
....
>
>For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From 
>the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, 
>however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the 
>Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-
>Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very
>heart of the Turkish homeland--and to renounce these lands would have meant 
>not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state. Turkish and 
>Armenian villages, inextricably mixed, had for centuries lived in neighbourly 
>association. Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                        
>two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>terrible holocaust of 1915 when a million and half Armenians perished.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
   now let's see what is missing here..
 
   From the same source(The emergence of Modern Turkey), the same page(356),
   the same edition(2nd), and from the same paragraph..
 
    "Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
     two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the
     terrible holocaust of 1915, when, according to some estimates, up to
                                       ***************************  ******
     a million and half Armenians perished,as well as an unkown number of
                                           ******************************
     Turks."
     ******
 
  
 In your quotation:
  
  what happened to the underlined words with ( ******* ), Mr.Davidian...
 
  what happened to the"according to some estimates"?
  what happened to the "up to"?
  what happened to the "as well as an unknown number of Turks"?
  
  Now, do you understand why you were(are) humiliated?..Now, do you know
  what I am talking about?
  
  I am still asking Mr.Davidian..Will you correct your 'quotation'..
 
 
>.......
>..........
>nationalism, the older idea that Muslim"
>
>----------------------------------- lewis.quo ------------------------------
>
>Hmm...just where is your quote, in the same paragraph as ...1915... regarding
>an "unknown number of Turks"! You sir would not only be thrown off of a 
>debating team but most likely would be banned from further competition!
>
 
  Oooo really..If anyone who does not have the book and wants to check it from
 the book they may go to library or to the Barnes & Noble bookstores 
 to buy it..
 (the Emergence of Modern Turkey,Bernard Lewis,page 356,2nd ed.,1968,
  Oxford Unv. Press)

 You will see how David Davidian twists the facts.. 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26242 soc.culture.arabic:6915 soc.culture.iranian:11964