From: jblum@next00clab.wam.umd.edu (The Maven)
Subject: Re: I like Ace, dag-nabbit!
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:02:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.212603.2978@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>  
as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:
> In <1992Nov8.133755.8498@iscsvax.uni.edu> morgans@iscsvax.uni.edu  
writes:

> >Okay, I have had enough of the "I hate Ace" "I hate McCoy", time for  
some 
> >responses.

Ditto, Siobahn.  You said it so well that I don't think there's much
else for me to say in this debate / flamefest.

As for Drew, on the other hand...

> >1. "Ace isn't a real characterization of a modern teenager...."  Yes  
and No, 
> >in some aspects she is like a 16 year old girl from a dysfunctional  
family. 
> >How many of you can relate to that?  I can.  I can understand what the 
> >writers were trying to do with her character.  Yes, at one time I was  
16, 
> >and at one time I hated my parent(s), and I was an outcast.  But NO, I  
did 
> >not make homemade explosives, but that isn't what makes her  
"realistic".  
 
> I don't care whether I can relate to Ace.  I care whether I like her or  
find
> her interesting.  This is what makes a memorable character, as opposed  
to an
> identifiable character.

Try _reading_ the posting, Drew.  Including your own.  In the posting
Siobahn responded to, you accused Ace of not being real.  Siobahn says
she is real.  So you pick up on a throwaway phrase of Siobahn's, that
people can relate to Ace, and attack that.  Brilliant debating.

People relate to Ace because she is real.  They think she is interesting
because she is real --  a refreshing change for Doctor Who companions.
They do NOT only think she is interesting because they can relate to her.

A implies C and B implies C does not equal A implies B.

We too care whether we like her or find her interesting.  We like her
and find her interesting.  If you have no more to say other than the
fact that you don't like her or find her interesting, kindly spare us
the logic-chopping.

 
> >2. "Everyone likes/hates her."  Well, put me on the like side.  I  
appreciate 
> >her lack of screaming, and I gained infinite approval for her when she 
> >attacked the Daleks with her softball bat.  How many other companions,  
male 
> >or female, young or old, would have done the same?
 
> Again...I don't care.  Romana and Leela had it all over this pouting,
> sullen, thoroughly irritating little brat.  Dysfunctional family or no,
> screaming or no, she was just an abrasive character.

As you've said, YOUR OPINION.  Which you have stated several times with
a mininum of proof.  If that's all you have to say...
 

> >3. "She is worse than Adric" - Not in my book, Adric was just a poorly 
> >developed character - Too Disney-like.
 
> She's still worse than Adric.  Adric had a certain boyish charm when at  
his

This debate is VERY quickly turning into "Yes she is" "No she isn't".
I think the blame falls very heavily in your camp, because of statements
like the above, and the below:

> best.  Ace, at *her* best, simply used ridiculous expressions of  
approval
> at which I spent lots of time snickering ("ace," "wicked").

Has anyone cited the slang-heavy "Dragonfire" as Ace's best?  Not in
all the posts I've waded through.  So what's the point to this statement?
 
> >4. There is no number 4.
 
> Glad to hear it.

Or this one?
 
> >5. "She became a major theme in the stories, rather than just a  
bystander"
> >Well, I can applaud this.  I am one of those strange people who puts  
season 
> >26 at the top of my list.  I like the idea of someone other than the  
Doctor 
> >being an integral part of the stories - Ace's hangups, past, and  
talents 
> >were the centerpoint of some of the stories, and I applaud that leap by  
the 
> >writers/producers.
 
> This might have been nice if (a) she were charming enough for us to care
> about her hangups, and (b) these hangups were resolved.  As far as I can
> tell, her major step forward was losing her fear of water.  That's  
character
> development?

Those scenes weren't about fear of water, it was about trusting herself.
Before that scene, she was full of self doubt -- "What's wrong with me?"
She felt like she was a bad person for hating her mother.  Diving into
the water allowed her to test herself, and find that she could
survive, bad feelings and all.  She didn't need to avoid the "dangerous
undercurrents" in her own personality any more.  The end of "Fenric" is
a classic use of a rebirth archtype and an association of themes
(Man against Nature implying Man against Himself).  It seems you missed
all this... so don't dismiss it to those of us who caught it.

It's all spelled out in nice block letters in the book, btw.

Hopefully that was enough intellectual content to justify this posting,
because from here on out it's just comments on this "debate".
 
> >Okay, there it is, some of my rationalizations for liking the character  
of 
> >Ace, McCoy's Doctor and the whole damn show.  And if you are going to 
> >followup, plllllleeeeeeaaaaaaasssssseeeeeee  edit down the text, I am 
> >getting tired of reading too much stuff in these debates.
 
> Too bad, deal with it.  If you don't want to read, don't bother to post.

Maturity at its best.  Siobahn asks for a common courtesy, and a bit
of standard netiquette, and you respond with an eloquent "Piss off."

In fact, was there any reason for this entire post of yours, other
than to say for the umpteenth time that you can't stand Ace? 

> And may I point out that a million points of logic will not help me like
> Ace.  I doubt that you care...so you can drop it unless you have a  
stronger
> purpose in mind than changing my opinion.  It seems everyone but me  
loves
> the little strumpet so why are you arguing?  I'm a Scorpio, I'm too  
stubborn
> for this sort of thing to work.  :)
 
> Drewcifer

Guess not.

Well, all I can say is that, judging by these posts, Drewcifer appears
to be a very accurate, realistic, and convincing portrayal of a
fifteen-year-old who doesn't know when to shut up.

Flame off.

--jon
Xref: sparky rec.arts.drwho:7468 rec.arts.sf.tv:4661 rec.arts.tv.uk:6067