HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Subject: Re: New BEL CANTO disc is out for those who like 4AD Style
Followup-To: alt.music.alternative,rec.music.misc
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:00:35 GMT
Originator: kjetilho@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no

Milo D. Cooper (mdc@crash.cts.com) writes:
> [deleted]

Bel Canto isn't Dead Can Dance. They never have been. Bel Canto has
never set out to sound like the 4AD crowd. If a band has to sound like
Dead Can Dance or Cocteau Twins to please you, don't get Bel Canto.

Bel Canto makes music which is rich in many respects. There is a
melody, there is a flow, there is a rhythm, there is lyrics, and none
of these parts are ever neglected.

"shimmering, warm & bright" is a very produced album. Some people
don't like produced albums, and I feel sorry for them. All the exotic
instruments, percussion, vocals, layer upon layer elaborately built
up, enhances and refines the emotions evoked.

Listen to "die geschichte einer mutter", try to put yourself in the
place of the mother, hear her wails. It is so unbelievably sad and
beautiful - it had me crying for the first time in 10 years.

So you think this album has a techno feel to it. Perhaps, if you think
a strong beat is synonymous with techno, but to reiterate - this isn't
new in Bel Canto's music. The title track is out on a single as the
"Alien Nation Remixes", most definitely heavily remixed, most
definitely techno.

Enough. I guess you've understood by now that Bel Canto is on my
can-do-no-wrong list, along with Suzanne Vega, Prince, Dead Can Dance,
Madonna and Dalbello.

> But if you're an American, you may yet like it.

I don't like the attitude that smacks from that statement. Perhaps
this is a US <-> Canada thing a Norwegian doesn't understand, please
explain.


Kjetil T.
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative,rec.music.misc
From: saiki@mpg.phys.hawaii.edu (L. Saiki)
Subject: Re: 3 song queries
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 09:21:46 GMT

Jeff Robbins <jeffr@ora.com> writes:
>>
>>1. 99 Red Balloons

[stuff deleted]

Brian Holtz, holtz@netcord.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>1. Nena <-- a band from Germany the singer is quite a babe.  Also look
>for 99 Luft Ballons, the German version.  Foreign babe!

[more stuff deleted]

There is also a really good version that 7 SECONDS did!! =)
I prefer this version! 
-- 
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
     The end!					 L. Saiki	
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: randy@rdr.com (Randy Tidd)
Subject: Re: Singles.... A must see
Reply-To: randy@rdr.com (Randy Tidd)
Organization: RDR, Inc.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:09:04 GMT

woodwick9526@iscsvax.uni.edu writes
> Soren Eugene Roth writes:
> > 
> > i cannot believe that anybody thought that wuz a good film. 
>  Um, excuse me, but I saw it for $5 and it was well worth it. 

I know this isn't the place to talk about movies, but I'll keep this  
directed towards music.

I saw "Singles" a weekend or two ago -- I thought it was mediocre but  
mildly interesting, mostly cuz the characters on the screen were my  
supposed peers (I'm 22, out of college, into "alternative" music,  
etc).  But it seemed like they threw in bits of the Seattle music  
"scene" just because they were supposed to.

Matt Dillon's character was a funny parody of a Seattle Musician;  
some might say a parody of Kurt Cobain.  But other than that, the  
music scene was merely a place for the Singles to meet one another,  
and for a couple of lines about hitting the clubs.  Nobody talked  
about the bands, nobody was seen listening to them in other scenes,  
etc.  They had a shot of a lot of album covers of Alternative Bands,  
but didn't play much of their music.

Other than that, the characters were poorly developed, stereotypical  
Young Professionals.  Worth the matinee price if you have a cute  
date.


Randy
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: glocke@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Gordon Locke  )
Subject: Re: REM - sidewinder
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:57:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.123246.7272@abekrd.co.uk> steven@abekrd.co.uk (Steven Glenister) writes:
>Does anyone have the lyrics for Sidewinder Sleeps Tonite from REM's new album?
>Does anyone have comments on the new album?
>I thought it was pretty laid back, but still full of the vast talent they
>possess. Sidewinder is definatley my fave of the album
>
>Steve.

	I heard "Sidewinder" this morning on a local alternative radio
station, and I agree that the song is excellent.  I haven't heard
anything else from the new record (except maybe the single on commercial
radio), but it sounds like it's way better than _Out of Time_, which I
was quite disappointed with, tho' it was pleasant enough.  I understand
that the band plans to tour to support this one.  Too bad they'll never
come anywhere near this desolated place!

	Gord, a.k.a. glocke@morgan.ucs.mun.ca

Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
Subject: Re: Sonic Youth: The Next Madonna
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:18:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.054350.6516@rdr.com> randy@rdr.com (Randy Tidd) writes:
>From: randy@rdr.com (Randy Tidd)
>Subject: Re: Sonic Youth: The Next Madonna
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 05:43:50 GMT
>GUNNAR HORRIGMO writes
>> speterse%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu writes:
>> > AT LEAST Sonic Youth can PLAY instruments, and they

Ahemm....I did NOT write this!
Who are you that smut my name like this??????

I agree on this opinion though.

Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Subject: Re: Camper van Beethoven spinoffs
Keywords: Camper van Beethoven, Crackers, Monks of Doom
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 04:18:59 GMT

reeder@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Gregory L Reeder) writes:

>I started listening to Camper van Beethoven a while ago and am wondering how     Crackers and Monks of Doom sound compared to them. I know David Lowery is in    Crackers, which ex-CVB are in Monks? Also did CVB release anything besides      Our Beloved Revolutionary Sweetheart and Key Lime Pie?

>                                                        Thanxx
>                                                        G-Man

Other CVB albums:
Telephone Free Landslide Victory
CVB II and III
Camper Van Beethoven
Vampire Can Mating Oven

Monks of Doom have:
the guitar player
the bass player
and the drummer from CVB

Johnathan Segal has a solo album: Storytelling
and is in the group: Hieronymous Firebrain

Also, there is a fine album with Eugene Chadbourne called:
CamperVanChadbourne (sp?)
and an album called something like the Chadbourne Double Trio
(which I haven't heard)
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
\	"Set our sights on sites	|  Leor Jacobi                   ,__o
-)	 not yet set."		        |  leor@ocf.berkeley.edu       _-\_<,
/    		- Sonic Youth	        |  c188-am@po.berkeley.edu    (*)/'(*)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: kmorton@panix.com (Ken Morton)
Subject: Re: Sundays new album?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 21:57:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

        I hope that it is the 6th...  I heard the new single today
on the radio and I can't wait!!!
 
                                Ken
 

-- 
Ken F Morton
kmorton@panix.com		"Good Tea, Nice house." -Worf
From: v079ql9q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (I got a Catholic Block.....)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: Tangets to Moshing
Date: 3 Oct 92 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BvIC4B.2wq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, lmn52210@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ramona) writes...
>First off, when exactly did slamming stop and moshing begin?
>In high school we called it slamming, and the first I ever 
>heard of moshing was in reference to Anthrax, who have a 
>song called "Caught in a Mosh".  Then, a friend of mine 
>told me there was a specific way to do it, she never got 
>around to showing me, though.  I'm just curious.
> 
I dunno.  I always call it slamming, but alot of other people call it moshing. 
The first time I heard it called moshing was with Anthrax also.


>Second order of business...The thing about bouncers is 
>truer than anything. 

(some stuff deleted)

>As a result, a lot of people were landing on the joists 
>on their backs, heads, and necks.  These weren't huge 
>guys who were hurting people in the crowd, they were tiny
>girls, and young kids in general.  Easy targets.  It was
>really disgusting, I was angry with the crowd because
>they kept feeding these people to the bouncers.  My 
>bigger beef is with the fucking "crowd management"
>assholes.  They have been at all the Riv shows I've been
>to recently.  Metro gets by just fine without these
>fucks, and Metro is such a tighter place.  Does anyone 
>know if we can do anything about this?  We really should.
> 
> 
>					    Ramona
>					    .
I know what you mean.  Just do what I did:  After Lollapalooza II, I called
SPAC and complained about an incident I had with Command Security.  Basically,
I had a ticket for reserved seating, and before the Chili Peppers came on, they
stopped letting people down into the seats, saying that it was too crowded. 
This was true, but that was because 90% of the people in seating snuck in. 
Command sure was doing a great job, huh?

Back to my 'story'.  I was pushed under the rope when it was bum-rushed, and 2
security guys grabbed me, threw me dow and jumped on me.  One of them almost
kneed me in my throat, and if I hadn't rolled to the side, my larynx could
have been cracked.  I am a big guy, 6'3", just over 200 lbs, but I NEVER
fought, and only struggled when I was shoved into the wall face first and put
in an arm-lock.

So the next day I called SPAC and complained.  I was very calm, and just
explained to the secretary about what had happened.  She said that she would
pass my complaint on to the President, and gave me his address along with
Command Security's address.  I wrote two letters and got a response from the
president of SPAC saying that he would look into it.  No response from Command.

So if something happens to you, don't fight back, you're just giving security
an excuse to pummel the living shit out of you.  Call the club, ask for the
owner/manager, and complain.  Don't lose your temper, if you do, they probably
wont respect you.

Just my $.02

Later-

Shane
From: mm68@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Dalamar)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Red Hot Chilli Peppers
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:02:50 GMT
Organization: University of Brighton, UK

I am thinking of buying something by this group soon (with my little spare
grant cash) and wondered if anyone could suggest something that would be  
appropriate to make me perhaps want to listen to some more? Would the best
of album not be a good idea?


-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| These views are my own and not those of anyone else other than my familar,  |
| Grishnak, a Major Demon. If you have any queries please address then to him |
| he will be more than happy to deal with them....                            |
| Michael May, Northbrook College, Worthing, Sussex, England.                  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: winter@gressenhall.sw.stratus.com (Brian Winter)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: important MORRISSEY question
Date: 2 Oct 92 14:28:32 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <m2RZRB2w165w@hale.cts.com> genocide@hale.cts.com (Gary Danko) writes:
>
>morrissey, as said in a radio interview, is celibate. listen to songs 
>like "end of the family line" and "i will never marry" this would lean 
>over to the homosexual side. he has no brothers so i would assume he is 
>telling us, in these two albums, that he is gay. anyhow, he has never 
>actually stated or, i have never known him to have actually stated where 
>he stands. i would leave it all up to speculation.
>


I have a copy of Rolling Stone from '84 or '85 with an article about
Morrissey and The Smiths in which it says that Morrissey has "admitted"
that he is gay, but is celibate. I can post the actual text if needed.
I believe the title of the article was "Oscar! Oscar! England is Wilde
about Morrissey"

Speaking of the ol' Mozzer, does anyone remember a segment on MTV
about 6 or 7 years ago where Morrissey agreed to be filmed alone in a
room? He sat just in front of a rolling camera, no camera man in the
room, and would open little slips of paper he had been given upon
which were written words like "LOVE" "POETRY" or "MONEY". He would
open the slip, show it to the camera and say the word, and then rattle
off his thoughts for 10 minutes or so. As an interviewing technique, I
thought it was pretty neat.

Brian
winter@gressenhall.sw.stratus.com
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative,alt.tv.seinfeld
From: jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold)
Subject: Kramer/Joy Division Connection
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:47:18 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

Kramer (on Seinfeld) reminds me of Ian Curtis (of Joy Division) at times....

Like when Kramer spazzed out when he drank the expied milk, and when he
had a fit because of Mary Hart on Entertainment Tonight.....

It looks like the way Ian Curtis used to shake and dance at the Joy
Division shows...

Also, I remember seeing pictures on Ian Curtis with a Kramer-like hair
thing going on his head....

And they both dress similarly.....

Is this a coincidence or what....

Maybe Kramer -IS- Ian Curtis...

The mind wobbles....

Jack
jis@panix.com
From: genocide@hale.cts.com (Gary Danko)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: smiths, best of...1
Date: 2 Oct 92 00:44:31 GMT
Organization: Hale Telecommunications San Diego CA

gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky) writes:

> don, don, transplanted hobokenite...
> 
> it's all the same old remastered trite.  no new versions.
>  no alternate takes (except possibly "how soon is now", that
>  might be the single edit).
> 
> blah stuff. - bob gaj

if you recall, the smiths rarely did remixes. i knew of one before i got 
the charming man remix disc. i had heard of this charming man new york. 
all morrissey and marr did, to my knowledge, was to remaster it using 
digital equipment. it's a must have for true smiths fans.
-g

HALE TELECOMMUNICATIONS - Public Access Node, San Diego CA 619/660-6734 HST
genocide@hale.cts.com (Gary Danko)   01-Oct-92 at 5:45p

***SAVE A NATION-- KILL A LIBERAL***
From: raineykriste@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: trip shakespeare
Keywords: trip, lulu, proton
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:29:13 GMT
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA

In article <semrAFO00iUzE30Gwr@andrew.cmu.edu>, Chris Ferrall <ferrall+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> 
> The first Trip Shakespeare album is "Apple Head Man," on Gork(?) Records.
> I think it is still in print.  It contains the original version of
> Pearle, and some other good songs.  A friend of mine still in
> Minneapolis says they are about to put out a new album.
> 
> Lulu comes closest to capturing their live performances which,
> until two years ago when I saw them last, were always great.
> Matt Wilson improvises lyrics on certain songs (such as Toolmaster) - 
> often with ridiculous but always entertaining affect.
> 
> 
> --Chris Ferrall
>   ferrall@andrew.cmu.edu

Wow!  Was I happy to see Trip Shakespeare's name!  I'm a relatively new 
fan, having only heard "Lulu."  But, during the summer of 1991, I was an 
intern for a booking agency in Minneapolis which does some work for Trip. I 
know they've performed at First Avenue in MPLS. (The bar from Prince's 
"Purple Rain" movie) in recent months, so I assume they're still together. 
Perhaps the agency would have more info--here's the address & phone
	Proton Productions
	529 South Seventh Street, Suite 310
	Minneapolis, MN  55415
	(612) 349-6606

--Kristen
  "It's not a perfect world, 
   but it's still good to be alive!"
 		--The Bad Examples
From: pogo@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Gual)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: About moshing......
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:00:41 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold) writes:
>And the point about people picking people up.....
>Well, I was at a LUSH show (I don't considering them PIT music.  Does
>anybody here SLAM to "Thoughtforms"?) and this guy got knocked down, and
>nobody would help him.  They would just kick him like he was dirt.  I
>guess it has to do with that Fat-Boy mentallity all jocks have.  I mean,
>in their frats, they traumatize people daily (physically and mentally).  I
>guess to them, a slam pit is a fun night out to beat up the geeks and
>others who are into "weird" music.....

  on a lighter note. i saw lush at clark university last february and
i was in the slam pit. it was real cool cause no one was out to hurt
anyone or anything. no hardcore flexing, no kickboxing, people who
fell down were picked up, people who were surfing wern't dropped.
actually though the type of slamming that was going on (mostly up and
down not really side to side) went real well with the music. 

pogo
-- 
pogo (n) - all the skimhead and twice the caffine;
skimhead (n) - 2% hair; a kinder, gentler skinhead;
              * sit pogo sit     Oi!    good skimhead *
                           pogo@wpi.wpi.edu
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: 000998s@ace.acadiau.ca (KARL OVE SONNICHSEN)
Subject: Re: PEARL JAM BROKE UP!!
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 00:16:58 GMT

In article <gunnarh.174.718222533@dhhalden.no> gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:
>From: gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
>Subject: Re: PEARL JAM BROKE UP!!
>Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 18:15:33 GMT
>In article <sem8kX600YV7A3lcgS@andrew.cmu.edu> mf2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Marc Kevin Fischer) writes:
>>From: mf2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Marc Kevin Fischer)
>>Subject: PEARL JAM BROKE UP!!
>>Date: 29 Sep 92 17:02:27 GMT
>>
>>  I just spoke to a friend of mine who writes for Spin and he was sent
>>to Seattle to do a cover story on Pearl Jam. Well yesterday he called me
>>and said that they have broken up. After Lollapallooza 2 and all those
>>shows I was pretty surprised but apparently they can't deal with all the
>>pressures of the music industry and so they've called it quits. 
>
>Or they can't deal with eachother. According to some friends of mine, PJ 
>started fighting eachother on stage at the Roskilde festival in Danmark, and 
>had to leave half-way in the show. The consert the da after in Oslo was 
>canselled on grounds of illness. *hah*
>
>
>
>
>          /\           | I didn't say this.      | "I never forget a
>        /    \         | My supervisor would     | face. Especially
>      /        \       | kill me if i did.       | when I've sat
>    /    (<>)    \     |_________________________| on it."
>  /                \   |Gunnar Horrigmo          | -Kathleen Turner
>/____________________\ |gunnarh@sofus.dhhalden.no| Crimes of passion

Truely no one who is slightly intelligent believes this CRAP!!!!!!!

				Karl
From: genocide@hale.cts.com (Gary Danko)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: The evils of Pearl Jam WAS Re: Temple of the Dog
Date: 26 Sep 92 18:41:19 GMT
Organization: Hale Telecommunications San Diego CA

> I don't understand or care what commercial means or doesn't mean. What I
> care about is the quality of the music. Nirvana plays good music that is
> hooky and poppy and has gained them commercial success. So what? Good for
> them.
> 

Nirvana is a commercial band, not a talented band. They are surviving off 
commercial success. Phew! How long do you think this success will last?

HALE TELECOMMUNICATIONS - Public Access Node, San Diego CA 619/660-6734 HST
genocide@hale.cts.com (Gary Danko)   26-Sep-92 at 11:42a
From: woodwick9526@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: RE: Smashing Pumpkins .. Where found
Date: 27 Sep 92 23:18:17 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

oops, I wanted to reply to post 10689 but I screwed up, so here goes,
The request was where to find Smashing Pumpkins, Well, I do belive that
Musicland had it last I saw, but I might be wrong.  However, they usually
can get and do have about anything anyone's musical ear is tuned into.
                Woody
From: kauffman@slab.unt.edu (DON KAUFFMAN)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: About moshing......
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:46:34 GMT
Organization: School of Library & Info Sci, UNT

In article <BvBK9G.GGE@acsu.buffalo.edu> v079ql9q@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (I got a Catholic Block.....) writes:
>I don't know about you guys- but now that 'alternative' is cool,
>slamming/moshing is now cool.
>
>At Buffalo, we have a Spring and Fallfest, and they involve alot of bands that
>one would consider 'alternative'.  Since they come and play, people come and
>slam.  Which brings me to my point:
>
>There just seem to be alot of jock assholes out there saying 'Cool!  We can go
>beat up people and not get into trouble.  Lets go!'  It really pisses me off. 
>When I go see a band in a club, if there is a pit and someone gets knocked
>down, they get picked right up.  At the Fests and LollaII, you would get
>trampled.
>
>I just hate it when people get in a pit and start throwing fists, elbows, etc. 
>It's a pit, your gonna get knocked into, so just go with it, don't hit back.
>
>I dunno, it just really pisses me off when people say 'yeah, when you beat up
>10000 other people and get away with it'.  Clubs near my house outlawed
>slamming, and I don't want to see it outlawed everywhere.  So to that certain
>person who posted earlier about Lollapalooza II:  COOL OFF.
>
>Thanx for putting up with me, just had to get it off of my chest.  8^)
>
>Later-
>
>Shane

Oh, I feel the same way.
I fucking hate these people.
I really do.  They have no place in my world.
I wish they would die.
(Am I too bitter?)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: mdw@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh)
Subject: New Cocteau Twins album, and when?
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 02:06:32 GMT

I was just told by a one <b-mckay@uiuc.edu> that the Cocteau Twins
might be coming out with a new album in the next couple of months?
Any clues? Thanks.

mdw

-- 
Matt Welsh    mdw@tc.cornell.edu        +1 607 253 2737
Systems Programmer, Cornell Theory Center
  "Yow! Up ahead! It's a DONUT HUT!!"
From: cc647@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Cornick)
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: Pop Underground CD
Date: 1 Oct 1992 21:31:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc647@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Cornick)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, 900361p@ace.acadiau.ca (MICHAEL CHARLES PIERCEY) says:

>Has anyone heard this yet?  I got Riot Grrrl the other day and it had the 
>band listings, and it looks cool.  Gotta pick it up.
>
EXCELLENT COMPILATION of stuff from the K-fest (aka the Intl. Pop
Underground Convention) last August. Everybody from Scrawl to Fugazi to
Steve Fisk to NOU to Seaweed to Courtney Love to ... is on this disc. Great
performances all around. The vinyl has bonus tracks, which I can't name
since I have the CD. If you're down with the indie-rock thang, you'll
regret not buying this. Plug. plug. plug. A related compilation is _Kill
Rock Stars_ which was originally given away at the festival but is now
widely available on CD. Get 'em both.
-- 
Mark Cornick                | "You give us 22 minutes, we'll give you
cc647@cleveland.freenet.edu |  the world..." -- Girls Against Boys
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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