HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: University
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:10:50 GMT
	<1992Sep1.162526.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Reply-To: hermit@bayview.com
Organization: Computing and Telecommunications Services, UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au's message of Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:25:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.162526.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.010002.9082@news.columbia.edu>, gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>>A few remarks/questions about the use of the word "university"
>>
>>I notice that many people in the UK use expressions like "He's at
>>university" whereas an American would always say "He's at college,"
>>even if the college is a university.  Anyone have an explanation other
>>than just a basic US/UK difference?

Well, there are two large US/rest-of-world differences here.  One is
the "He's at xxx" and the other is the "college"/"university" word
use.  The former is because Americans use more articles than
British/rest-of-world people.  If an American is sick, he is "in the
hospital"; if a Briton is taken ill, she is "in hospital."  The
British use of "holiday" sounds odd to Americans: we say "I'm going on
vacation"; the British equivalent is "I'm going on holiday."  In
America, a "holiday" is a day when you don't have to work; in Britain
it (also?) means a pleasure trip (vacation).  An American would be
more inclined to say "on a holiday" rather than "on holiday," as well.

>>Similarly, I often see Australians abbreviate the word university as
>>"Uni."  Americans would always write "Univ." (or sometimes just "U")
>>if they wanted to abbreviate it.  I've seen 'Uni" used in the midst of
>>written paragraphs, so I wonder...  is "Uni" an abbreviation used in
>>Australian speech, also?  What's the situation with the abbreviation
>>in the UK?
>
>We say `going to university' or `to uni'. We would not say `to
>college' to mean the same thing. Also, if weonly use the word
>`school' to mean K-12.

That abbreviation ("uni") sounds truly strange to this American's eyes.

An interesting side-note: in Spanish, the word "colegio" means high
school, also known as "secondaria."  College/University in the
American sense is "universidad."  Or at least that's how I learned it
in "colegio"...
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: andrew@venus.resntl.bhp.com.au
Subject: Re: <None> (alias Re: Correction)
Organization: BHP Research, Newcastle Laboratories
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:14:08 GMT

In article <10689@spark.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
> In article <1992Sep9.093309.1@venus.resntl.bhp.com.au> andrew@venus.resntl.bhp.com.au writes:
> <In article <1992Sep8.065535.21046@techbook.com>, dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
> <> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
> <> }
> <> }Hear, hear.  And it's me who agrees that that's what a grammar is for.
> <> 
["Correction" and comment thereon removed]
> <
> <- you would be
> <better off jumping on him for ending a sentence with a preposition. ;-)
>
...
> 
> Speaking of which, how would one rearrange this sentence so that it
> won't end with a preposition?  "<...> that for that's what a grammar is"?
> 
How about "... that what a grammar is for is that."?
(It *can* be done but...)

Andrew
From: stef@Apple.COM (Stef Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: difference between boyfriend and girlfriend
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:43:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

>qcg@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Qing Guo) writes:

>>I hear from time to time female students say, for example, "I went shopping with a girlfriend yesterday", but I have never heard a male student say I did so and so with a boyfriend. Why do women call their female friends girlfriends but men don't call their male friends boyfriends?

A few thoughts:
(1) 'girl' is still somewhat acceptable when referring to a young adult female, 
but 'boy' is not acceptable when referring to a young adult male. 'Guy' is
somewhat equivalent to 'girl' but the phrase 'guy friends' is not used
much by men; 'one of the guys' or 'some of the guys' is used more frequently.

(2) If you use a word that refers to a person without specifying gender, it
is often assumed that the person is male. If one says, "I went shopping with 
a friend," one's listener may assume that the friend is male unless 
specified otherwise. The woman must therefore say 'girlfriend' or mention a
feminine name to specify that it is a female friend. The same would go for
a man who said that he did something with a friend: it would be assumed
that the friend was male unless he specified otherwise. 

--
Stef                 In the force if Yoda's so strong, construct a 
stef@apple.com       sentence with words in the proper order then 
                     why can't he?                         /fortune
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:13:12 GMT

andrew@venus.resntl.bhp.com.au writes:
}dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
}> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
}> }
}> }Hear, hear.  And it's me who agrees that that's what a grammar is for.
}> 
}> Ya mean "it's me whom...".  Sheesh!  Can't even getcher grammer
}> straight on the PedantNet.
}> 
}I can't see any reason to use the objective case here - you would be better off
}jumping on him for ending a sentence with a preposition. ;-)

Course there is.  It gots to agree with the "me".

Don't no one know their grammer nomore?

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
From: padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: difference between boyfriend and girlfriend
Date: 12 Sep 1992 17:12:34 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <1992Sep10.163708.10671@news.acns.nwu.edu> qcg@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Qing Guo) writes:
>Althogh English is not my first language, I am good enough at it to understand that a boyfriend is male and a girlfriend is female. My question belongs to a higher level than that. 8=) 
>
>I hear from time to time female students say, for example, "I went shopping with a girlfriend yesterday", but I have never heard a male student say I did so and so with a boyfriend. Why do women call their female friends girlfriends but men don't call their male friends boyfriends?

You know, that bugs me as well. Why not just "friend" instead of
"girlfriend". To me, (in the context above) the prefix "girl-"
is just plain unnecessary (as in: as if it matters).

The only explanation that I can think of is that a woman's "girlfriend"
is a slightly better friend than just a "friend", perhaps an adult 
form of the elementary school "best friend" (ever notice that it is
much more important for elementary school girls than it is for
elementary school boys to have one Best Friend?)

Guys don't say that they have a "boyfriend" because of the inevitable
homosexual overtones. But that doesn't answer the question of why it
is proper for a gal to speak of her "girlfriend". Perhaps it's the
same as allowing women to wear pants but not allowing men to wear
skirts. Or something like that.

Friendly,
Peter!


Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@osf.org (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: Brit. vs. Amer. spelling, was: Re: Improper spelling
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 07:58:46 GMT

In article <25785@castle.ed.ac.uk>, cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
> In article <6sxnjrp@lynx.unm.edu> jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth) writes:
> 
> >I still can't come up with an explanation for the Brittish _centre_, _metre_
> >and others instead of the _center_, _meter_, et al. that are used here in
> >the US.
> 
> Still? Just how much research have you actually done on this, if you
> haven't even got as far as opening an etymological dictionary?

Looking it up in a French/English dictionary will work just as easily.

Simon.

-- 
  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Brit. vs. Amer. spelling, was: Re: Improper spelling
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:59:54 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <6sxnjrp@lynx.unm.edu> jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth) writes:
>There is a logical basis for spelling certain words in the American way
>as opposed to spelling them the way the Brittish do (ex.: Humor vice Humour,
>draft vice draught, etc.).  The simple reason, in today's world, is cost.
>

    Oh yeah???   I see it as mutilating the language.


>Eliminating one, two, or three letters from common words will save money.
>Sure, eliminating one letter from one word will not save much money; but,
>when this extremely small savings (about .00001 cents and about 1 letter-
>width for the average laser printer) is multiplied by the amount of papers
>that are produced each year, the savings can be significant.  I don't have
>any hard numbers to back this up, but I would suspect that the savings is
>only on the order of 1% (at most).
>

     You mean we should speak like this --> y mn w sd sk lk th????
According to your argument, smaller the better! So why should we use
words? Why not just some more efficient form of communication?
     Face it! Redundancy in our language is built in and helps to make
communication clearer. Increasing or decreasing redundancy is stupid and
pointless. 
    There is no way you can justify the American mutilation of the English
language. You even refuse to accept that English English is the pure form
of the language.



>I still can't come up with an explanation for the Brittish _centre_, _metre_
>and others instead of the _center_, _meter_, et al. that are used here in
>the US.  Does anyone know why this difference exists?
>
>
      Unfortunately, you were misguided by a quack called Noah Webster.
The CORRECT spelling is the one with 're'.

P.S.  Flames will be ignored.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space the final frontier" - Star Trek.
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong"
                                                         - The Beatles
From: sgs1679@usl.edu (Sudhindranath Sira G)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: How comprehensible is this ?
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:28:28 GMT
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana

Hi,

I would like alt.usage.english gurus to read the paragraph below
(contained in a report that I happened to read) and 
answer the following queries :


	* Does the text make complete sense ?

	* If it doesn't, where exactly does it become "fuzzy" ?

	* If it is incorrect, what modification(s) do you suggest to 
	  make it comprehensible ? (assuming that you could
	  make out what is being said).


------------------------- BEGIN  TEXT -------------------------

V. WORK EXPERIENCE.
------------------
Worked as a Design Assistant (Computers) in a World Bank aided
Integrated Rural Water Supply & Environmental Sanitation Project 
for the Government of.......... <deleted>. The project required
the development of an integrated software package. The
development and implementation charts ; an efficient and cost
effective improvement of the existing or proposed System
Design. The Development of the Package was in "C", Basic,
Dbase III Plus & Clipper. The hardware platforms being
80286/80386 - based PC/XTs and PC/ATs.


------------------------- END    TEXT -------------------------


Please email your reply to me since I don't read this
newsgroup often.

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

--Sudhi.

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Sira Gopinath Sudhindranath.   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
email : sudhi@usl.edu, sgs@ucs.usl.edu    Address : USL PO Box 41688,
                          	                    Lafayette, LA 70504-1688.
	                                            USA.
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Improper spelling
Date: 13 Sep 92 14:07:32 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Sep12.175912.1234@microsoft.com> frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
>In article <HERMIT.92Sep9035320@am.ucsc.edu> hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward) writes:
>>In article <25472@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:

   In the UK the distinction is drawn between "draft" as in version and
   "draught" as in liquid measure or small breeze. Using "draft" for the
   lot seems just a foolish confusion leading to ambiguity.

>I personally have a lot more faith in context than spelling
>to disambiguate homophones. If I were to saw (or write) "I
>feel a draft" few would be the auditors or readers who
>would think I was testing the texture of an early version of
>my first novel.

Unless they were British, in which case they might regard it as a
perfectly reasonable criticism of something that was alleged to be a
finished version.

>And in any case, even if draft and draught were justifiable
>on the grounds of disambiguation, the effect would still be
>quite limited; a liquid measure and a small breeze do not,
>superficially at least, appear to have a lot of meaning in
>common.

Same is true of "wear" and "ware", "bare" and "bear", "brake" and
"break". I guess the popularity of your view in the US explains the
very common confusion of homophones in US postings.

>Do the British still refer the game Americans call checkers
>as draughts?

Still? Why on earth should we change? The game was invented before the
US!
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: garfinkeling
Date: 12 Sep 92 02:53:50 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <16260@bcars664.bnr.ca> baril@bnr.ca writes:
>I've used the word 'garfink(e)ling' for years to describe various rhetorical
>tactics used to evade difficult questions, especially those which attempt to
>avoid a specific answer by moving the discussion to a more general theoretical
>level.  For example, the question "Do you love me?"  might be answered, "What
>is love?" [Sound familiar?]

>I've yet to find it in any dictionary.  Any suggestions?

You didn't by any chance live in Washington, DC about 20 years ago, eh?

"Have you Garfinckeled today?" was an ad campaign for a department
store there back around 1970.  

Roger
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Short question on word sequence
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:13:02 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

If this distinction between "less" and "fewer" is important, i.e., it
would be a loss to the language to treat as a silly distinction and
simply drop it, what is the corresponding distinction for "more"? My
suggestion is that since there isn't one, this is a silly distinction
which English is better off without.
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: Another Americanism?
Keywords: "I should have went....."
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 09:33:57 GMT

tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>People don't like to use past participles, perhaps because it
>complicates the simple morphological system of present versus past
>tenses.  

But for some verbs, it's more common for people to use the past
participle for the past.  E.g. "I seen him yesterday.", "I done it
already."

Possibly you're right about them having a simplfied tense structure.
At least, it sounds plausible.  Anyone know of any studies done on it?

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Re: Improper spellingscreen
Date: 10 Sep 92 11:45:42 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <57560037@hpscit.sc.hp.com> fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher) writes:

>I can't speak for the world of poor spellers, but I *can* speak for one
>of them... me.  I am a poor speller because I put very little effort
>into it.  My rationale (I just looked this word up) is all that
>information is stored in a very handy memory device... the dictionary.

This is only practical if you don't write much, and you only use words
which can be found in small (e.g. single volume) dictionaries.

At the age of 12 I was a poor speller. I was also embarrassed by it
and tried to improve my spelling by trying to remember the mistakes
pointed out to me, and by looking up what I wasn't sure of. I also
read a few books about spelling from the library. I am now a good
speller. It wasn't hard.

At the age of 16 my handwriting was atrocious. I tried to improve it,
and failed. I reasoned that copper-plate cursive was a very silly
method of cursive writing since in haste it was bound to degenerate
badly. I checked out italic writing and decided it was too slow. I
devised my own script, and in six months was writing as fast as
before, but now quite legibly.
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: greg.grainger@rose.com (greg grainger)
Subject: Re: 'Taking silk'
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:25:30 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 09-05-92 02:17
On Sept. 4, Lauren Crawford wrote:

CR>I'm plowing through a British mystery novel right now and have gotten to
CR>a passage that describes a character as having "taken silk" and now
CR>operating a thriving law practice.  I assume the phrase means the
CR>equivalent of our "passing the bar" -- true?  Where does it come
CR>from?

If I remember right, it refers to a sort of higher-ranking or more
prestigious position in the legal profession, possibly Q.C. - Queen's
Council.

It comes from the black silk robes worn by both counsel and judges in
British (and Canadian and Australian) courts, even today.

Hint - you might run across the expression, 'my friend' - in British (and
Canadian and Australian) courtroom usage, opposing counsel is referred to
as 'my learned friend'. Much more civilized.

There IS a difference between 'barrister' and 'solicitor'.


                                                Cheers,
                                                Greg.


Greg Grainger
Toronto, Ontario.
11:03:26 pm, Fri 09-04-1992.
greg.grainger@rose.com

------------------

Personal policy statement:
Neither flames nor flame-bait will be responded to.
---
   OLX 2.2   Join army: travel, meet interesting people & kill them!
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert)
Subject: <None>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 12:52:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.213005.2699@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
> In article <10563@scott.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
> |> In article <1992Aug28.114714.25710@dg-rtp.dg.com> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
> |> <Keywords: "I should have went....."
> |> which makes dashes look like hyphens (or pairs thereof) and hyphens
> |> look like minus signs.
> 
> So what's the difference between a dash and a hyphen?  Serious question here,
> not meant to be sarcastic at all.
> 
> +--------------------------------------------------+
> |Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
> |cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
> +--------------------------------------------------+
-- 
There are three different punctuation symbols referred to here.
(There also some variations in spacing when used with these.)

The dash or em rule. This is the width of an em. This is the one commonly used
in text for such purposes as marking parenthetical elements. In typing it is
often represented by two hyphens.

The en rule. This is one en (half an em) in width. It is ued to link discrete 
items, e.g. 1991-1992.

The hyphen. This is one-third of an em in width. It is used in complex words
and compound words and also when text is hyphenated.

The standard Australian reference for use is the AGPS Style Manual (ISBN
0 664 07123 0), pp77-86 (that was an en rule there).

Another (much briefer) reference which will reflect US rather than Australian
usage is Robin Williams, `The Mac is not a typewriter', Peachpit Press 
(ISBN 0 938151 31 2).

John A Lambert
Centre for Literary and Linguistic Computing
The University of Newcastle NSW 2308 Australia
ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au
From: jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Brit. vs. Amer. spelling, was: Re: Improper spelling
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:35:25 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

There is a logical basis for spelling certain words in the American way
as opposed to spelling them the way the Brittish do (ex.: Humor vice Humour,
draft vice draught, etc.).  The simple reason, in today's world, is cost.

Eliminating one, two, or three letters from common words will save money.
Sure, eliminating one letter from one word will not save much money; but,
when this extremely small savings (about .00001 cents and about 1 letter-
width for the average laser printer) is multiplied by the amount of papers
that are produced each year, the savings can be significant.  I don't have
any hard numbers to back this up, but I would suspect that the savings is
only on the order of 1% (at most).

I still can't come up with an explanation for the Brittish _centre_, _metre_
and others instead of the _center_, _meter_, et al. that are used here in
the US.  Does anyone know why this difference exists?
From: hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Acronyms (Was Re: Articles and acronyms)
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:10:33 GMT
	<HERMIT.92Sep9042843@am.ucsc.edu>
	<1992Sep10.101813.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Organization: Computing and Telecommunications Services, UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au's message of 10 Sep 92 00:18:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.101813.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert) writes:
|An interesting stage in the transition from acronym to word has been reached
|here in Australia (and possibly elsewhere) with the acronym PIN (personal
|Identification Number) as used for bank ATMs.
|
|One frequently hears and sees references to the (to me) tautological `PIN
|number'.

That's quite common here too..  Also, a friend's mother's ex-husband
(how's that for a mouthful!) used to refer to compact discs as "CD
Discs" (or was it "Compact CD's"?)!  So to pay homage to his
stupidity, I often refer to "Compact CD Discs" in jest....
--
William R Ward                       Bay View Software
VoiceMail: +1 (408) 479-4072         Internet:  hermit@cats.ucsc.edu
SnailMail: 1803 Mission St. #339     BITNet:    hermit@cats.bitnet
           Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Lunchroom Sign
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:14:56 GMT


The following message was posted in our lunchroom above the microwave,
neatly laser-printed in large letters:

If you are not cleaning the microwave, and make mess, please do so.
That way everyone will be acting in a responsible manner.