From: olson@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Charles Olson)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Capital punishment
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:45:16 GMT
 <1992Apr14.201623.23815@cco.caltech.edu> <OLSON.92Apr15212547@husc8.harvard.edu> <1992Apr16.182702.15210@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Spam-On-A-Rope Inc.

In article <1992Apr16.182702.15210@midway.uchicago.edu>, moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne) writes:
|> In article <OLSON.92Apr15212547@husc8.harvard.edu> olson@husc8.harvard.edu (Chip Olson) writes:

|> >
|> >"Amen, brother!  There's too much beauty in our fellow humans for their
|> >judicial murder to ever be justifiable."
|> 
|> "*Ever* be justifiable?  Are you really contending that there will never be a 
|> situation where society is justified in executing someone?  I don't think I can
|> argue this coherently at the moment...I'm too angry."
|> 
|> Kateri walks determinedly over to the Danger Room, gently closing the door
|> behind her.  You start to hear various smashing sounds before she remembers
|> to turn on the sound-dampers...

Castellan is left standing there with a perplexed expression on his face.  "Ummm...
what did I say?"  He considers going in to talk to her, but the sounds he heard
before she turned on the dampers convince him that this might not be a good idea.
Ordering a beer, he sits down and waits until she's done.

When Kateri emerges, he goes over to her.  "Er... I must admit to some confu-
sion, as I wasn't at all expecting that kind of reaction.  Perhaps I should 
clarify my viewpoint:  I don't believe that there are any circumstances under 
which the state has the right to execute someone, by which I mean carrying 
out the death penalty, as opposed to things like police officers defending 
themselves.  It's not that I think murder isn't a serious crime; quite the 
opposite-- I  believe that it is so vile and abysmal a crime that the state 
cannot be given the license to do it any more than random individuals can.  
I'm using the word `murder' ignoring the `unlawful' aspect, and I'm using 
`the state' here as distinct from `society'.  The state claims to act in 
society's name in this and other areas, but they are not the same thing.  
And no matter what crimes a person may have committed against society, 
eventually his punishment will come down to a judge making the decision.
And I don't believe any individual has the right to place himself above an-
other and say `You are not worthy to live', be he acting in society's name
or not."

He now turns to StM, who is saying...

|> It sounded to me like you were claiming that the death penalty actually
|> increased the murder rate (you [or someone else; not enough context to tell]
|> pointed out that those states that have used the death penalty have among the
|> highest murder rates).  I was merely pointing out that the direction of
|> causation is not obvious.

"Certainly it could go both ways... my point was that TX, FL and GA's high
rate of executions has not appeared to have any beneficial effect on the 
murder rate in those states in the 16 or so years since capital punishment
was relegalized."

|> And in the case of the serious offenders, it's an argument in favor of making
|> certain that they can't continue their crimes if they get loose.  The death
|> penalty is one way to do this.

"Certainly it prevents them from doing it again... but is it established that
100% of convicted murderers will start killing again if they're released from
jail? (I have no stats on this whatsoever, and it isn't really central to my
argument, so don't be surprised if I don't defend it really hard.)"

"What is central to my argument, though, is something that's difficult to 
argue.  One of my core beliefs is that, while people may have great capacity 
for evil, everybody also has great capacity for good (and don't let's get 
into tangents on what `good' and `evil' really mean).  There's beauty in all
of us if you look hard enough... admittedly, some people hide it well.  And
I see the death penalty as the ultimate denial of the possibilities within
us."

-- 
-Chip Olson. | olson@husc.harvard.edu | ceo@gnu.ai.mit.edu (seldom used)
"So come all ye lovers of the Good Life, your children playing in the sun,
And set a sympathetic flag a-flying, and be there when the Dutchman comes..."
                                      -Jethro Tull, "Flying Dutchman"
Newsgroups: alt.callahans