From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:57:19 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:


>In article 6IE@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>
>>>In article 7@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Jews have always, for the last 2000 years, been the majority in Jerusalem.
>>>>To claim Arab sovreingty over Jerusalem is  complete lunacy.  Those who
>>>>call for an end to Jewish settlement in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Judea and 
>>>>Samaria are simply racists - they are attempting to deny people housing based
>>>>on their national identity and religion.  Israel does not prevent Arabs from
>>>>building in the territories...Who is the racist now?
>>
>>>That's a really pathetic argument, but the reason I replied is your
>>>first sentence.  Jews have been a majority in urban Jerusalem since
>>>about 1870 and were the largest of the groups {Jew,Christian,Moslem}
>>>for perhaps 100 years before that.  Earlier on, Jews were a minority.
>>>For most of the past 2000 years, Jews were a SMALL minority of the
>>>population of Jerusalem.  The immediately surrounding rural areas 
>>>(now part of the metropolis) were almost exclusively Arab until 
>>>after 1948. [Source: Bachhi, Population of Israel]
>>
>>The argument is pathetic - compelling!  Why so?  You are however correct
>>about when the Jews became a majority in Jerusalem.  However, recent history
>>is important and that is what we are considering.  The only reason the Arabs 
>>were even a majority is because foreign occupiers (like the British or the Turks)
>>prevented free Jewish immigration.  Just look at the British White Papers, 
>>especially the White Paper of 1939.  This is essentially what is important.  
>>Thearabs became a majority artificially - only because the Jews were held back.

>I think you are about the most ignorant poster on t.p.m for quite a while.
>Let's see you find some figures to back up this stupid claim.  Alternatively,
>find one professional Israeli demographer who supports you.  (You will fail,
>because Israel is a world leader in demographic research.)

You seem to rely on "figures" to answer every argument.  It doesn't take figures
nor a great genius to realize that a comparison between how the Arabs migrated
to Palestine and how the Jews did is not equal.  You certainly aren't denying
that the British White Papers restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine.  I
certainly don't need to rent a copy of Exodus to know that Jewish ships were
turned back from Haifa port and sent to internment camps while the Arabs
simply had to cross the Jordan River (if you can even call the Jordan a
river - at some points it flows more like a creek).  By the way, name calling
is the last refuge of a non-thinker.


>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
>>depressed area.

>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  

What evidence do I need?  Where are the great provinical centers, institutions,
or schools established by the "Palestinians" in the great amount of time 
during which you claim they lived in the land.  You certainly know that some
of the largest clans on the West Bank, like the Ja'abari and Masri clans,
derive from Iraq and Syria respectively.  What evidence do you possess which
claims that the Arabs who lived in Palestine had lived there permanently
throughout all those years?  The facts on the ground certainly don't reflect
that.

Anyway, the question is not who lived on the land, but who owned it.  If Arab
squatters were disenfranchised, then I'm sorry - the land was not theirs 
anyway.  Of the land now known as Israel, Jews who lived there owned a
considerable amount more than Arabs who did.  Anyway, almost 70% was owned
by the Mandatory government and transferred to Israel when it became a state.
If anyone disenfranchised the Palestinians, it was the the Arab states which
invaded and occupied their land.


>>Ed Shnekendorf.

>Brendan.

Ed Shnekendorf.