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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 23:15:23 -0400
From:         Vicky Chai <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Songrette - Do what..?

        DO WHAT

Hey, do you remember back in Sunday School,
When they told you all about the golden rule
About doing unto others
As you would have them do unto you?
It's not always easy living like you should,
But you can overcome the evil with the good.
There's a logical solution,
Do what Jesus wants you to do.

Do what you know,
Do what you know He wants you to do.
Do what you know,
Do what you know He wants you to do.
It's such a *thrill* to be in His will,
He's ready now to bless you,
But He's waiting until
You do what you know He wants you to do.

Putting into practice all the truth you've read,
That's the master plan for you to get ahead.
When your act is all together,
The world will see the joy coming through.
Open up His word and spend some time in prayer,
Then begin to live what you discover there,
And you're sure to be a winner,
Doing what He wants you to do!


(Written by: Niles Borop, James Isaac Elliott, Dwight Liles)
(Copyright: Word Music/ASCAP and Bug and Bear/ASCAP)


  Try it and see what happens!


  In Christ,

        Vicky
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:42:57 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

This is largely in response to Jesse's post in which he asks, What about
those whom Jesus said "will not be forgiven"? Did Christ die for them?

I answer: Yes, he did. But they will not be forgiven, because their sinfulness
is such that they cannot ask God for his forgiveness. When I say that Christ
died for someone, that his death was effectual in dealing with their sins, I
mean only that Christ's death has made it possible for them to be forgiven.
This does not imply that they will in fact ever be forgiven.

Like, if a road is built between towns A and B, the road is for all the
inhabitants of those towns, and anyone can use it: everyone is allowed to.
But there will be some people who don't want to travel, and there will be
some people who don't have cars.

There might be some (here the analogy begins to wear thin) who consider that
the new road is too bumpy, or too dangerous, or something. Perhaps they will
refuse to use it. Sounds a bit reminiscent of the people who said Jesus was
a devil. And guess who he said would never be forgiven?

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:07:25 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 10/2

The Hiding Place

"God gave me the work of telling all people about the plan of God's secret
truth.  That secret truth has been hidden in God since the beginning of time"
(Ephesians 3:9).

"This teaching is the secret truth that was hidden since the beginning of time.
 It was hidden from everyone, but now it is made known to God's holy people"
(Colossians 1:26).

"I want you to know fully God's secret truth.  That truth is Christ Himself.
And in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are safely kept [or hid]"
(Colossians 2:2,3).

"Your new life is kept [or hid] with Christ in God.  Christ is your life"
(Colossians 3:3,4).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 12:38:42 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Old response to Michael Kline

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


I meant to respond to this when it was first posted and didn't get a chance
to.  Normally I would just let it drop, but in this case I wanted to respond.

>    excellent point worth discussing. If you don't follow the Bible,
>    just what do you follow?

I agree, it is an excellent point.


>accountable with that. Could you tell me where your code is?"
>
>    "Well, it's in my head." So in other words, you make up your own
>code. What if everybody, forget now morality, what if everybody made up
>their own traffic rules? Alright, forget the you know... it's a very
>sensitive issue, ethics. Talk about traffic.

>    I got my traffic rules. I can't show them to you, I have them.
>They're not the cities, they're not the states, they're mine. Why will
>there not be anarchy in life as there would be anarchy on the roads if
>everybody made up their own traffic laws?


This is a good point, something that I had thought about before.  What if
everyone just made up their own rules, as I am apparently doing?  Some
of my rules on morality are something that I base firmly on my personal
beliefs, which have been influenced by many different things (including
Christianity, strangely enough!).  But, if you want my code on how to
live, my rules, all you have to do is look at the law books.  I believe
that the laws of our country were made to be followed, not broken.
Beyond that, what more do I need?  They keep society civil and give me a
basis on which I control my actions, just as the bible does for you.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Subject: Re: Is my salvation the only thing that matters?
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 03:07:40 GMT

In article <9210061546.AA01413@gval1.pnl.gov> ng910@GVAL1.PNL.GOV writes:

>	Your arguements are good, in as far as they go.  But you have missed
>a very important point.  It is in Ephesians 2, the basic jist of the
>chapter is  that once you are saved, you are saved to do those good works
>which God has prepared in advance for you.
>
>	In other words, you are correct that it is a Gospel of Works, but
>only of Works *after* salvation.  Prior to that, it is very important to
>be reconciled to God so that we do not fall into the trap of giving glory
>to ourselves for doing the works that God enabled us to do.

I couldn't agree more.

>	I will agree that the discussion of purgatory is a secondary issue,
>but the searching for salvation is *primary* nothing is less important than
>knowing Christ as Saviour and Lord.  Do not confuse sanctification after
>death (purgatory) with salvation which is a conscious act made in life,
>they are distinctly different in that if you do not choose to follow God,
>you will never be "purged" of any inequities which you failed to conquer.

I think you meant "nothing is MORE important than..."!
Well, yes and no. Suppose that somehow you could procure the salvation
of hundreds of other people, at the cost of your own. (A ludicrous idea,
I agree; but imagine it for purposes of discussion.) Are you quite sure
that in such circumstances you should choose your own salvation rather
than that of those hundreds of people? Would your answer be the same if
it were physical lives at stake?

It might be suggested that the situation I mention is not possible because
the best course of action for everyone else's salvation is always the same
as the best for one's own. If this is your opinion, can you give any reason
for believing it?

The trouble is, the answer I intuitively want to give is that acting in
everyone else's best interests (in which I include their spiritual state;
I'm not just thinking of their lives, material comfort etc.) is what God
wants of you, and that he will not condemn you to damnation for things
done with that in mind. Unfortunately this sounds a lot like salvation
by works...

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 09:48:23 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Heaven,
              25 Sep 1992 22:01:47 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Please forgive me, but this is too much:

>   There are fires in Purgatory, but not with the same intensity as
> the fires of hell.  So one is purified just by being there.

Does somebody actually know the temperature?

The only way one is purified is by the work of Christ, not by being cooked in
a low intensity broiler.
John writes in his first epistle that when we confess our sins, God is
faithful, not only to forgive us, but to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
That means we are cleansed, purified, etc. No purgatory involved.

Tom Brewer
From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: males vs females and God
Date: 4 Oct 92 03:44:47 GMT
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <9210020640.AA09738@a-hp.au.oracle.com> iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM (Ian Williams) writes:
>This might seem stupid, but I am honestly interested and it is a serious
>message..

No stupid questions, only stupid answers.
>
>Do any of you out there think or wonder if being a male or female can affect
>your relationship with the Male Jesus, and the male way that we tend to
>see the Father (although he is without sex).

First of all, God can not be without sex.  Jesus called Him Father, (literally
Abba, or "daddy"  He is not sexless)
>
>I was thinking on the way home if being a female would alter my interpretation
>of the 'love of Jesus' and make it any easier to accept the idea of having
>what is in effect a love affair with a man! Jesus is our saviour, our
>brother, our Lord, but also our HUSBAND! he is our lover..

Only in a spiritual sense.  I don't believe in a physical sense.  In heaven,
none will be given in marriage and so sexual relations won't exist.  I think
we are Christ's bride only in a spiritual sense that we will have perfect
Spiritual union with Him.
>


--
Noel Estabrook          |       If somebody publishes an article in a really
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	obscure research journal and nobody reads it,
Educational Technology  |	does it really exist?  - IgNobel Prizes
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 09:53:29 EST
From:         "PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON" <Z$T@FCCJ.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: DEATH PENALTY- for or against?
              28 Sep 1992 21:25:19 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

DEAR LON,

         IN REPLY TO YOUR MESSAGE ON MONDAY.  I AM BASICALLY FOR AND ANGAINST
DEPENDING ON THE SITUATION.  I THINK THAT IF IT IS MURDER IN ANY DEGREE IF THE
CIRCUMSTANCES ARE GREAT ENOUGH I THINK THAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS RIGHT ON.  BUT
ON THE OTHER HAND IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE NOT GREAT ENOUGH I THINK IT WOULD BE
WRONG.

          YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST,

                        PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON
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Original_cc:  HANNR
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:52:00 GMT
From:         HANNR@SERVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Job Opening

The Department of Philosophy and Religion at Florida International
University, of which I am a member, has just begun a search for
a new Associate Professor in Catholic Studies.

We are seeking someone who is already at the Associate Professor
rank or who could be appropriately promoted to that rank by
the fall of 1993.  We are especially interested in finding someone
who can teach Catholicism to the wide variety of students which
one might expect to find at a state university.  Applications
from women and minorities are especially sought.  Further
information may be obtained from the chair of the search committee:

          Dr. Barbara Hogan
          Department of Philosophy and Religion
          Florida International University
          Miami FL 33199

Members of CHRISTIA can help us in our search by inviting appropriate
candidates to contect us.  If you know of another list to which a
notice of this opening might appropriately be posted, please let
me know.

Thanks for your help.

Robert R. Hann
Florida International University
(HANNR@SERVAX)
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:18:54 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Why Did Jesus Die?

Sigh.  I thought I was being clear.  I guess not.  :-/


>Dear Mark ;

>I am a bit flexible on this, but as I see it for now, the reason
>Christians die at all is because Jesus died. We have union with Him
>spiritually, so we are identified with His life, death, and
>resurrection. If He died -- then we die.  If He was raised to newness
>of life -- we will be raised (and in fact are already so, spiritually
>speaking) having new glorious bodies. If He is the Heir then, as Paul
>states, we are co-heirs.

>Jesse

I agree with you that we christians identify with Christ in His life,
death and resurection.

Something to remember though is that Christ identifies with us, too.
He was tempted as we are, suffers as we do, grew up as we have (I
would say he was a baby just like any other - messy too), and died as
we do.  His death was a little different than ours though.  (OK, so
I'm understating it. :-))

The question is not, why do christians die, but why do humans die?

I think it was Dan Graham (?) who answered that best.  Essentially, humans
die because that is the nature of the beast.  Otherwise why did God
cast Adam and Eve out of the garden in order to prevent them from
eating the fruit of the tree of life and live forever?

Mark
From: Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU (Leo W)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Scripturette 9/29
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:21:41 GMT
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"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  In Christ, God has
given us every spiritual blessing in heaven.  In Christ, he chose us before the
world was made.  In his love he chose us to be his holy people -- people
without blame before him" (Ephesians 1:3,4).

"So I bow in prayer before the Father.  Every family in heaven and on earth
gets its true name from him" (Ephesians 3:14,15).

"There is one God and Father of everything.  He rules everything.  He is
everywhere and in everything" (Ephesians 4:6).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:01:21 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 10/5

"Dear brothers, when I came to you, I did not come as a proud man.  I preached
God's truth, but not with fancy words or a show of great learning.  I decided
that while I was with you I would forget about everything except Jesus Christ
and his death on the cross.  When I came to you, I was weak and shook with
fear.  My teaching and my speaking were not with wise words that persuade
people.  But the proof of my teaching was the power that the Spirit gives.  I
did this so that your faith would be in God's power, not in the wisdom of a
man" (1 Corinthians 2:1-5).

"When we speak, we do not use words taught to us by the wisdom that men have.
We use words taught to us by the Spirit.  We use spiritual words to explain
spiritual things" (1 Corinthians 2:13).

"All Scripture is given by God and is useful for teaching and for showing
people what is wrong in their lives.  It is useful for correcting faults and
teaching how to live right.  Using the Scriptures, the person who serves God
will be ready and will have everything he needs to do every good work" (2
Timothy 3:16,17).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:02:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Different Meanings

I am truly in awe of the way the Lord works to get his message across
to us.

Several of us attended a co-workers birthday party, held in a
conference room.  On the blackboard were lecture notes and in the
middle of it was a circle with the words SAVE (and the professors
name).  The non-Christians in the room looked at it and read 'do not
erase.'  The Christians looked at it and laughed.  We all felt
commanded to start praying for this man.  In one swoop, the Lord got
his message thru to several of us at the same time!

     Thank you Lord for the honor of praying for one of
     your lost sheep!

                                        Liz Moreau
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 03:30:00 BSC
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From:         GELSON GOMES <GELSON@BRFAPESP.BITNET>
Subject:      Mastering Internet Tools

         "Mastering INTERNET Tools, Seizing METANET Power" -
                    "The InterMeta Course"

     Begining on October 10, the InterMeta Course will describe
the History of the Metanetwork and cover the basic utilities used
to access the network, as well as to guide users through the
Internet's, Bitnet's, (and othernets') "databases of databases"
to access files and archives available. Some of the topics to be
presented in the InterMeta Course are how to (1)Remote Login,
(2)Use Electronic Mail, (3)Move a File, (4)Find Software,
(5)Locate a Person, (3)Deal with Network Problems. An index that
covers a selection of resources available on the Internet,
ranging from Card Catalogs to Archives for USENET news will also
be delivered.
     In addition, some sessions will help UNIX, VMS, VAX and DOS
users to interface their systems to the Net.
     Resulting from five years of researching and using the
Network, the InterMeta Course is being prepared by Gelson
Gomes, Ph.D. The InterMeta is the first experience of a Global
Scale Course utilizing a matrix of connected networks, the
Metanetwork.
     Dr. Gomes is a professor at the Federal University of Parana
and is conducting research on the Computer Industries of Brazil
and Taiwan. He got his Doctoral Degree on Science and Technology
Public Policy at The George Washington University (Washington
D.C.).
     The course will be ministered from Brazil; to help
recovering local communication costs, (PDN is very expensive in
Brazil) a flat $ 5 US dollars donation is requested.
     To enroll in the InterMeta Course, please fill in the
application bellow and E-Mail to: Gelson@BRFAPESP.
____________________________________________________________
       Mastering INTERNET Tools, Seizing METANET Power -
                     The InterMeta Course
____________________________________________________________
                        APPLICATION FORM

Name:
Institution:
Highiest Degree Earned:
City:               Country:

__ Yes, I am sending US$ 5 dollars
     (or the equivalent on my own currency)

Mail your check to:
Gelson V. Gomes
358, R. Alvaro Andrade - ap.1201
Curitiba PR BRAZIL 80610-240
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:08:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Update

Friends:

A couple of weeks ago I asked for prayer for my neighbor Sean (16
yrs.) old who was in a car accident and broke his neck.

It took a week and a half for them to set his neck because he was
bleeding internally and they couldn't find the source.  I just heard
today that they got the problem under control and was able to set his
neck.  As far as they know, he is not paralyzed and may be coming home
in eight days.

Thanks everyone for your prayer support!

                                        God Bless,

                                                Liz
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:18:42 GMT

gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan) writes:

> The opinion is often expressed that no Christian can lose his or her
> salvation, various reasons being given.

This subject has been discussed and argued throughout history at length...
ad nauseum.  I have seen churches split over the issue.  This is most
unfortunate.

To some people one view or the other is very important to them personally,
and at first glance it would seem that the two sides cannot be reconciled.
But the bible, which is basically a unified and ultimately practical library,
appears to support both doctrines.

While I do not directly support one side or the other, I would never
forbid a believer to implement one of the two in his own life.
Futhermore, I deeply recommend that we do not seperate over this
issue.  Instead, let us study the Word of God with enthusiasm, and
let's encourage one another to love God from our hearts and to follow
Him in our actions.

-TimK
-- 
Tim King              <>  |  "It is an old maxim of mine that when you have
24 Myrtle Street       |  |  excluded the impossible, whatever remains,
Dedham, MA 02026     < |  |  however improbable, must be the truth."
timk@world.std.com    \|  |           (Sherlock Holmes, The Beryl Coronet)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 18:47:00 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Limbaugh on Communism

Subject: Limbaugh on Communism

    Modern Environmentalism. The leftist, socialist wacko
environmentalism, the "Save the Owl" people, the "Earth First"ers, and
all that. I'm telling you the militant environmental movement is the new
home of socialism, and communism in the world today. Now you may think
communism has been defeated, but it hasn't been. There's still plenty of
communism, American universities, and in journalism in this country. And
we still, ladies and gentlemen, have our eye on it. We have NOT been
sucked in to thinking it's been totally defeated.

    The rest of the world has admitted its failure, but there are still
some NUMSKULLS in our country who haven't. And they are primarily in the
environmentalists and to a certain extent the fringe animal rights
movement.

    Maks
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