HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Parable
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:06:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47572
Distribution: world
Organization: Abo Akademi University

In article <47418@ogicse.ogi.edu> sunidh@m.njit.edu (Sunil Dhar) writes:

>Roger ?  Raj ? Others ??  Why should we wait 4 lifetimes for
>enlightenment when we can have it NOW ???  And why does seem to be
>necessary to have so much patience that we have effectively foregone
>enlightenment (at least for ourselves :) in order to wake up this very
>minute ? 

What is this enlightenment that Buddha got ? I have asked this earlier
but apparently it did not get to the moderators. 

I  have a feeling that there  are degrees of  enlightenment and  there
might  be something like absolute  enlightenment. What  that  absolute
enlightenment is, I don't understand. Is it some knowledge which frees
you from the cycles  of life and death ?  Is it the end of  the Gnyana
Marga ?

Abhay
From: editor@rbhatnagar.csm.uc.EDU (digest editor)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: alt.hindu is now online -charter
Date: 11 Dec 92 00:26:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47096
Distribution: world
Organization: Univ of Cincinnati


              Charter for alt.Hindu

We propose the formation of a moderated alt group, alt.Hindu
 
Hindu dharma (religious philosophy and way of life) is followed by over 650 
million people in the world.  Prominent among its teaching are the 
acceptance of various religious paths, and the sprit of universal family.

Although there is soc.religion.eastern, alt.Hindu will be different.  It will
be the forum to discuss various Hindu docterines as they are applicable to
day to day living.  Unlike soc.religion.eastern, it will also be used as
a forum to discuss various issues that affect Hindus living around the world.
These issues include, environmental awareness from the Hindu perspective, 
war and peace, human rights and participlation of Hindus in political process
to promote the universal ideals mentioned above.  It will also be used as a
forum for cultural news about Hindus from around the world.

This forum will also be different from soc.culture.indian (sci) because,
sci is more concerned with the issues affecting India, whereas alt.Hindu
will be of interest to the people from around the world who are eager to
learn about the Hindu dharma (religious philosophy + way of life) and culture.

Currently, the only other forum for promoting such a forum is a list
called the Hindu Digest (HINDU-D), however, there is overwhelming 
interest in having an alt group.

******************************************
Posted By: Ajay Shah
ajay@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu
*****************************************
From: mcfarlan@corona.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: 4 Noble Truths
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:38:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47567
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Washington, Mathematics, Seattle

In article <47420@ogicse.ogi.edu> kris@bsg8.Corp.Sun.COM (Kris Skrinak) writes:
>I think that 'suffering' as a basis of spirituality has no relevance in
>Western culture.
>
>I am not suffering. I am wealthy, healthy, in touch with my
>surroundings and those around me. Further, I am happy and optimistic.
>
>I believe and espouse non-dualistic teachings. But avoiding or ending
>suffering has nothing at all to do with it.
>
First, I think it is wonderful that you are not suffering.  A compassionate
look around you,though, will reveal that other people are not so fortunate
as you.  There is suffering all over the place in Western culture, as there
is in any and all cultures.  And, as a believer and espouser of non-dualistic
teachings, there is no difference between your suffering and the suffering
of those around you.  The world's suffering is your suffering.  So, in this
sense (in Truth), you are suffering.

Second, ending suffering has everything to do with non-dualistic teaching.
For suffering arises from selfishness, which arises from the duality of
self and world.  Thus practicing non-dualism implies practicing compassion
and selflessness, and helping others (who are oneself) to be free from their
suffering, which is the suffering of the whole world.  We're in this together.

Tom McFarlane
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddha and Malunkya Putta
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:55:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47571
Distribution: world
Organization: Abo Akademi University

In article <47414@ogicse.ogi.edu> vaisnavi@m-net.ann-arbor.mi.us (vaisnavi) writes:

>     Buddha continued, "Then why do you threaten me,
>Malunkya Putta, about leaving the order? Now listen,
>Malunkya Putta. All your questions are in vain. It is
>profitless to explain them or to speculate on them. 
>What have I explained, then? I have explained misery.
>I have explained the cessation of misery. I have done
>so because these are profitable exercises, they deal 
>with the fundamentals of religion and lead to certain
>attitudes, ethics and modes of behaviour. I don't deal
>with idle fancies, Malunkya Putta."

So will the protagonists of Buddha tell us what questions (or what
kind of questions) are idle fancies and what are profitable exercises ?
This might sound a bit harsh, but I really wish to understand this
point. 

With regards,

Abhay Bulsari
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Parable
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:38:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47410
Distribution: world
Organization: AT&T

Kish writes:

[the beautiful parable] and asks:

> Roger ?  Raj ? Others ??  Why should we wait 4 lifetimes for
> enlightenment when we can have it NOW ???  And why does seem to be
> necessary to have so much patience that we have effectively foregone
> enlightenment (at least for ourselves :) in order to wake up this very
> minute ? 


Ramana had always advised people to ask: Who am I?

[This was the beginning, the middle, and the end of all sadhana.]

Yet he said:

Asking "Who am I" is like a "drunkard" asking "Who am I?"

So is the "enlightenment," the "path to it," and the "enlightened."

There never was non-enlightenment, never is non-enlightenment, and never
will be non-enlightenment. The non-enlightenment that a "drunkard" thinks
about is perfect enlightenment.

There is no waiting; there are no lifetimes; there are no "minutes" other
than "this very minute."

It's all like a dream, or a theater, or a movie in which (as Ramana said)
the screen, the projector, the director, the projector operator, the
scene, the actors, the spectators, are all one (Self).

If that is the case, who is deluded? who is ignorant? who is gyani?
who is enlightened? who is unenlightened? who has patience?
All depends upon the notion of "I am."
Who am I?

Who is asking who am I?

....


---raj
From: MORIARTY@VM1.NoDak.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Soc.religion.eastern
Date: 11 Dec 92 01:49:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47095
Distribution: world
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

Ummon asked:  "The world is such a wide world, why do you answer
a bell and don ceremonial robes?"

     from  _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones_

     In gassho,    Mike     email: Moriarty@vm1.nodak.edu
From: walsha@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Everytime I think I manage to lose my mind, there it is again, sneaking up behind me.)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Parable
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:27:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47411
Distribution: world
Organization: ----

In article <47092@ogicse.ogi.edu>, kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish) writes:
> "What did the Lord say about me ?"  Narada replied, "Oh yes.
> Do you see this tamarind tree ?  I have to tell you that you shall be
> born as many times as there are leaves on that tree, and then you
> shall attain freedom."  The man began to dance for joy and said, "Ah,
> I shall have freedom after such a short time !"  A voice came [and
> said], "My child, you will have freedom this minute."
> 
> Vivekenanda's comment:
> That was the reward for his perseverance.


the way i read the story is that the man's dancing and singing 
were an expression of joy and love bubbling up from an inner source. 
To view them as "clubbing" or light-hearted self-entertainment
seems to me to miss the point of such people (a rare enough breed
in our Western culture). the tamarind thing was a test of the genuineness 
of that joy and love. once that was established, yes, the alchemical change 
of the soul had already taken place.

in four more lifetimes maybe the anthill type would reach the 
dancing and singing stage.  


gassho in the Amida,
   ando.
From: kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Making the effort now
Date: 9 Dec 92 14:47:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47093
Distribution: world
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Marc:
++ Which reveals the broad spectrum of what people mean by the word
++ meditaion - how could effort be made when medtiation is the absense of
++ the meditator?

Roger:
+ In yoga, absence is not what is sought but rather the state in which
+ meditator, object of meditation, and act of meditating, become one. In
+ yoga, we don't say that the ultimate state is emptiness or some sort
+ of negation of existence. 

If I read you correctly here, you would seem to be equating emptiness
with the "negation of existence".  To the best of my knowledge, most
Buddhists don't see it that way, and I suspect this is not quite what
Marc had in mind.  Shunryu Suzuki says in ZM,BM pg 110:

	The Buddhist understanding of life includes both existence
	and non-existence.  A bird both exists and does not exist
	at the same time. We say a view of life based on existence
	alone is heretical.  If you take things too seriously, as 
	if they existed substantially or permanently, you are called
	a heretic.

Existence and non-existence are not solidified into "opposites" or
"absolutes".  They are seemless, inseparable.

Roger:
+ We say instead that the highest state is an expansion of one's
+ consciousness from thinking oneself to be the tiny bubble in the ocean
+ to realizing one is the whole ocean. Rather than being an absence of
+ self, it is a realization of Self as sat-chit-ananda (ever-existing,
+ ever-conscious, ever-new bliss). 

The only problem I have here is the use of the word "Self".  I think
it is too easy for words like self (hoewever it is casified), soul,
God, etc. become obstacles to "sat-chit-ananda".  Even
"sat-chit-ananda" is too much.  This is the point of the recent
postings on s.r.e concerning the silence of the Buddha.  I think the
following quite from Eido Shimano Roshi is appropriate here:

	Everything is to be regarded as "so-called", such as
	so-called Me, so-called You, so-called Chair, so-called
	Table.  This is the correct way to point to the essence
	of Being.  They are all so-called.  But because of the
	language system, we avoid the use of the adjective, 
	"co-called".  The more we repeat Me, You, Chair, and Table,
	the stronger these preconceived notions become and
	gradually we are well deceived and start to believe that
	there is a chair instead of a so-called chair.

To my way of thinking, the same sentiment applies to that which you
would call "Self as sat-chit-ananda".


Yours in Dharma,
-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Book by Lao Tzu
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:19:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47412
Distribution: world
Organization: Reed College, Portland OR

On NPR's Morning edition the other week I heard about a book by Lao Tzu 
other than the Tao Te Ching. It is, supposedly, a collection of about
80 lessons/exercises and has never been translated into English before.
Does anyone know the name of this book and the publisher? 
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Book by Lao Tzu
Date: 18 Dec 92 04:04:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47570
Distribution: world
Organization: ----

9212.17 e.v.


Todd Ellner writes:

On NPR's Morning edition the other week I heard about a book by Lao Tzu 
other than the Tao Te Ching. It is, supposedly, a collection of about
80 lessons/exercises and has never been translated into English before.
Does anyone know the name of this book and the publisher?


Response:

_Wen Tzu: Understanding the Mysteries_, by Lao Tzu,
          translated by Thomas Cleary, by Shambhala Books


This is how they describe it as a new book for 1992:

"The further teachings of the author of _Tao Teh Ching_,
 translated into English for the first time by the renowned
 translator of Asian texts.

"'At long last, the continued elucidation of the deeper
  mysteries of the Tao has been thoughtfully unraveled.
  Thomas Cleary has accomplished a formidable feat
  in the translation of this unrecognized classic.  We owe
  him our gratitude and admiration for all his brillant and
  scholarly translations.  _Wen Tzu* is his crowning
  achievement to date!'
                         - Chungliang Al Huang, Founder,
                           Living Tao Foundation and co-author
                           (with Alan Watts) of _Tao, the Watercourse Way_.

"Thomas Cleary is the translator of many classic texts of
Buddhism, Taoism, and _I Ching_ studies, including Sun Tzu's
_Art of War_ and _Zen Lessons: The Art of Leadership_.

"Eastern Philosophy; 6 x 9; 168 pages; $14.00 paper
 (Canada $17.50); ISBN 0-8777-862-9; LC 92-53700; 
 Shambhala Dragon Editions"


Thyagi
--------------------------
 
"The Path is like a slow-moving river.
It winds, lazily, through the forest of knowledge.
It does not care what course is proper.
It does not concern itself with restriction.
The river simply follows the path of least resistance.
It knows that its place is pure and perfect.
Know this and the 8-Fold Path is before you."

Thyagi Tzu
From: dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Conversations with a Zen master #1
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:42:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47417
Distribution: world
Organization: Cal State Long Beach

[blank lines crushed out -a]

Discussion with Joko, December 15th, 1992

Membership discussed, letter to Lisa sent. 


Question on the next step in practise, after 7 minutes of
breathing, labeling and body sensations. I mentioned that I
still happen to be in a lot of emotional pain.  Answer: What is
an emotion? Emotions are thoughts and body sensations. See,
until you know that, emotions are mysterious.  See them, label
them, and eventually, if they persist, you must turn away. Focus
on the body. You have a thought, then a physical sensation.
Sometimes you have to say 'enough'.  If you are thinking about
all these things, you get brownie points, you get to remain the
center of the universe. 


Question on 'wallowing in the pain' as opposed to practise. 
Answer: If your friends accuse you of that, it means you are
talking about it too much. You shouldn't talk about these
things, they are your business. Your practise is your business.
Talking about it dramatizes it. You are talking about nothing.
Your girlfriend isn't here. What are you talking about? It isn't
real.  Your job is to practise and to do your work. It's very
dull, but this is what I want you to do. And it's very
difficult, and in some ways what I am telling you to do is for a
lifetime. 


Question on 'inner voice', 'God voice' experiences in zazen.
Answer: Whose voice is it? Do you know? Student: I'm just being
open to what they say in spiritual literature. Joko: Do they
know whose voice it is? How do you know? Do you know what God
is? The mind is an inferior principle, a tool like a computer to
solve technical problems like where is the store and that sort
of thing. It can't solve this kind of problem. It can't solve
that which is bigger than it. Just label the thoughts, "Having a
thought that this voice is God". This little mind is dangerous.
It'll really get you.  Student: Is there a place for God in
Buddism? Joko: I haven't said whether there is or there isn't. I
want you to find out for yourself. I use the word all the time,
but I know what it is that I am talking about.  Student: So, if
in practise I hear a voice, I should do what? Joko: It's just
your voice. Label it. 


Ok, the last part of this conversation was a little confusing,
but I tried to not just accept her words this time. I was able
to get the answers I needed to my satisfaction, but this God one
was a little deep. I mentioned the concept of Big Mind, and all
she said was, 'That's a concept'. I think the experience of god
in meditation is not what I think it is. 

-- 
"The Harvests are plentiful, the laborers few" Jesus Christ

"what you're lookin' for, you're lookin' with!" Chuck C.
--
dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn)
From: kris@bsg8.Corp.Sun.COM (Kris Skrinak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: 4 Noble Truths
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:52:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47420
Distribution: world
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.


I've got a problem with the 4 Noble Truths.

I think that 'suffering' as a basis of spirituality has no relevance in
Western culture.

I am not suffering. I am wealthy, healthy, in touch with my
surroundings and those around me. Further, I am happy and optimistic.

I believe and espouse non-dualistic teachings. But avoiding or ending
suffering has nothing at all to do with it.

Can someone out there tell me what role 'suffering' plays in such a
life?

-Kris
From: billc@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Bill Carter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:41:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47421
Distribution: world
Organization: Tandem Computers; Austin TX


 I was reading a book about Buddhism I got from the library last
 night and came across an interesting tidbit.  The book is
 "Buddhism, A Way of Life and Thought", by Nancy Wilson Ross.
 As part of an attempt to explain why Buddhism has spread so
 far and wide and lasted more than 2500 years there was the
 following paragraph;

 "Buddhism, unlike Hinduism - that other great India-born religion,
 which has not flourished notably outside the geographic
 boundaries of the Indian subcontinent - is not a "revealed"
 religion.  It was founded by a specific human being, the so-called
 historic Buddha, born Siddhartha Guatama in northwestern India
 six centuries before the Christian era."

 The word "revealed" struck me because it was an unfamiliar 
 way to contrast Buddhism with Christianity, revealed by Jesus
 as a manifestation of a diety, or with Hinduism, revealed by
 Krishna or some other manifestation of a diety depending somewhat
 on who you talk to.

 In a paragraph several pages later;
 "What sets apart the Buddha's Enlightenment from the experience
 of other religious figures in world history is the absence of
 any divine intervention, or trancendent illumination from some
 higher-than-human sphere.  The truth to which the Buddha came
 was entirely a discovery made by a human being, brought about
 by his own efforts.  ...
 Even the original Buddhist goal of nirvana was the realization
 that life's meaning lay in the here-and-now and not in some remote
 realm or celestial state far beyond one's present existence."


 This is pretty nice to think about, somehow.  No wonder
 Buddhism has done so well, though I never heard anyone
 formulate it's appeal quite this way before.  Anyone care to
 defend Hinduism as "revealed" and rightfully so, or maybe
 to deny that it is "revealed"?


=  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
  Bill Carter    "Control what you can control, let everything else
                  take a flying f*ck at you, and if you fall go down
                  with your guns blazing."
From: jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Parable
Date: 15 Dec 92 04:03:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47416
Distribution: world
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada

[great post from Kish on Vivekananda's story deleted ..]

That was a very good post, thanks for posting. Let me just
try and sum up what I think you were saying. You were saying 
that Vivekananda, throughout the book, has the attitude that
we must put in good effort and perservere in our practice.
But the parable seems to say that a one need do is have
the right attitude and that will be much better than
engaging in austerities with an attitude of expectation.

I definately believe that in fact -both- are necessary. We
need to be regular and punctual with our spiritual practice
but it also has to be done cheerfully, devotedly and  
soulfully. 

Your conjecture about going out to have a good time a lot,
and doing this with a good attitude, being able to make you
free now, I don't feel will liberate a person [sorry! :-)]
I think everything in life should ideally be done with a
good/positive attitude about it, but regarding spiritual
liberation and god-realization I think you also have to
live the spiritual life.

I haven't read very much of Vivekananda but I should. I actually
used to have that Raja Yoga book but I gave it to somebody
before I actually read it myself.

Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------
|    Jeff Chance                       | That to which you   |
|    Dept. of Chemistry                | give your attention |
|    McGill University, Montreal       | becomes stronger in |
|    MAIL: jeffjc@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca | your life.          |
--------------------------------------------------------------
From: srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: African American Buddhists interested in correspondence
Date: 14 Dec 92 08:45:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47413
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

Hello.  I am writing this note on behalf of my wife, Elaine.  She is
a Buddhist interested in Zen and other aspects of contemplative Buddhism.
She is looking for other Africans with an open-minded approach to Buddhism
to correspond with.

Elaine does not have access to the Internet, so correspondence will have
to be done "the old fashioned way."  If you are interested, please respond
with an email message to me.  My name is Steve Habib Rose and my email
address is srose@usc.edu

Thanks,

Habib Rose
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Parable
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:42:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47573
Distribution: world
Organization: Abo Akademi University

In article <47410@ogicse.ogi.edu> raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma) writes:

>
>If that is the case, who is deluded? who is ignorant? who is gyani?
>who is enlightened? who is unenlightened? who has patience?
>All depends upon the notion of "I am."
>Who am I?
>
>Who is asking who am I?

I get a feeling that Raj mostly writes paradoxes or questions in
response to others. Those questions don't normally enlighten me
very much, but distract me from what was being discussed.

Do others feel that too ? Does Raj have something
to say about why he does so (or that he does not) ? Thanks.

Abhay