HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: starkey@netcom.com (Sean Starkey)
Subject: Re: Retreats
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:32:33 GMT

Mark.Wilson@launchpad.unc.edu (Mark Wilson) writes:
>	Are there any ambitious programmers out there who have access to
>the judges code?  Actually you don't even have to be ambitious to 
>implement this change.  I have noticed that the Judge will initiate a
>retreat phase even if there is only one legal retreat!  Since the
>judge handles everything else so well I was surprised to see this.
>	Can someone implement this simple 'upgrade'?  I would do it
>myself if I could ftp files off the net.
>	If you belong to the don't fix it unless its broken club, then
>this upgrade would seem rather trivial.  I just thought it would be nice
>to shave a day or two off the game when this occured.

There is one problem with this.  Even if there is only one legal retreat,
there is always one more option.  A unit can always disband during a retreat.
The player has to confirm the retreat or disband the unit.

Sean
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: ...now what was I going to post about?
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:58:05 GMT

Joel Fink (jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com) writes:

> The game "amnesia" on the washington judge appears to have been forgotten.

More accurately, I believe it was abandoned by its creator in favor of
'sardines', a very similar game also still forming on the Washington Judge.
I closed 'sardines' when it reached 10 players, because a player contacted
via e-mail reporting that he had trouble signing on because of a bogus site
number problem. Since then, two others have dropped out, and I've finally
gotten around to reopening the game. So, if you're interested in a Crowded,
gunboat, white press/no-partial game, send 'list sardines' to the Washington
Judge, and think about signing on.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA USA ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him,
and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said 'I helped skin Bob.'"
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:16:57 GMT

  We were playing Youngstown face-to-face today and were talking about
some of the differences between FTF and email. One primary one we came
up with was the lack of knowledge in email games of who is talking to whom.
It was suggested that the judge be modified to report on who is sending
messages to whom.

  I did a bit more thinking about this, too. If you sent out a message to
all the players each time a private message was sent, then you'd swamp
people with email. But how about if there was a summary sent along with
your current move status that showed you how many times each of the other
countries had sent email to each of the other countries? The table would
be reset after each move.

  This would be an option which could be turned off. I'd probably want it
as the default, but either way would be fine.

  Any thoughts, pro or con? Anyone interested in trying to implement it?

-David

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: abick@sebastian.carleton.ca (Alan Bick)
Subject: Question on "gunboat" (specifically light)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:17:28 GMT

	I've been observing light for sometime and noticed that it has
been having problems. I'd sign in on the game myself but I know one of the
players rather well. My question is this: How does one know which power is
abandoned so they can sign into it?
	When I do a list on the game it tells me only that "<so many powers>
are abandoned". Is the only way to find out, by signing into every power
before you get lucky. Someone posted that Russia happened to be open? How
did they know?
	I can understand how it might hurt the game if players knew which
powers had been abandoned but how does an observer/non-player find out?

Alan Bick
From: s9000289@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au (Cameron Hooper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: CD,Alternatives,Deadlines
Date: 9 Jan 93 18:29:58 +1000
Organization: University of New South Wales

When a country goes CD does an alternative automatically take over
or is it up to the GM to invite one of them in.  When getting a
list full from the Washington judge some of the games contain both
CDs and alternatives.

BTW We shouldn't let the MNR question hide an important element of the
recent debate.  It sounds to me like there may be some support for
more customized deadlines (know what I mean?).  Some players 
(and I'm not talking from a lot of experience) use the grace period
as an integral part of the allowed time.  If a move should take 3
days then why allow 7 days grace?  I think that for many games 2
days grace would be enough.  That still gives you 5 days and with
no weekend processing and plenty of time to both play the game and 
(maybe) fit in some work.

If you can't make these constraints because of the outside world, 
an adequate number of slower games could be created.  I think the 
requests for WARP games contributed to their creation.

We could end up with some simple categories: Warp, Normal and Slow
would do for a start.  (By normal I mean the 5 day inc. grace variant
discussed above).  When a game is created the GM simply includes the
approriate category in the introductory speil (sp?).  I think most
people would respect this.     

-- 
Cameron Hooper
s9000289@csdvax.csd.unsw.oz.au
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
What's another way of describing the bottom of a recession?  The start
of the recovery.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Re: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:49:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.040220.27520@ll.mit.edu> shoham@ll.mit.edu (Daniel Shoham) writes:
>IMHO, PBeM dip is *SUPERIOR* to FtF exactly because you never know who is
>talking to whom.

  While I respect your opinion, I definitely don't agree with it!

>I suppose I would never object to yet-another-variant, but I don't think this
>should be standard. If someone cares to program it as a variant, let the
>"marketplace" decide if it's popular.

  I have no strong feelings on it's value as a standard, I just wanted it
as an option.

>Also, players could easily defeat the system by making sure they send all
>opponents an equal number of messages. i.e., whenever I send country X a
>meaningfull message, I would also send a meaningless message ("Hi England, this
>is Turkey. As our planned linkup appear to be delayed yet again, let me take
>this oppurtunity to congradulate you upon the recapture of Liverpol.") to
>each of the other countries. The net result would be a needless overworking of
>the judge bandwidth.

  You can do this in FTF as well. There were be no significant "waste"
of bandwidth if the information was appended to messages that you were
already getting.

  I definitely feel that we should not add eavesdropping, though. BUt,
as usual, that's just my opinion.

-David



Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Subject: Re: Another Moves Question (Was: Re: Moves Question)
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:59:16 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

> 	But can an attacked fleet still convoy? 
> 
> For example:
> 
> 	Norway: (In a loeb9 game)
> 	a nor moves nth moves yor
> 	f nth convoys nor moves nth moves yor
> 
>         England: 
> 	f edi moves nth
>         a lon moves yor
> 
> 	Apparently the Norwegian fleet in nth could still convoy the army on 
> nor because the English army on lon -> yor was bounced. Seems a little 
> contradictory, eh?

Correct; while the most ridiculously underpowered attack cuts support, it takes
actual dislodgement to break a convoy.
BTW, correct syntax is to include the full route for the moving army, but only
the endpoints for the fleets used.

  |
--+-- Andy Lipscomb
  |   lipscoja@(ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu,vuctrvax.bitnet)
  |   Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jroberts@sanjuan.UVic.CA (John Roberts)
Subject: Re: Supporting a Support
Organization: University of Victoria
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:26:50 GMT

jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:

>In my last ftf game, the GM invoked a rule that I didn't necessarily
>agree with but seemed to be standard.  That was the invalidation of support
>for units offering support to another attack.  Eg:

>France: Pic -> Bel
>	Bur S Pic -> Bel
>	Par S Pic

	^^^^^^^^^ ! this should read Par S Bur !

>Germany: Mun -> Bur
>	 Ruh S Mun -> Bur

>His ruling was that the support from Par to Bur was invalid, because Bur
>was not holding.  The exception he allowed was for mutual support.

>Now in a judge game, I have been bounced on an attack, playing a position
>similar to Germany's above.  Therefore, the judge allows the support from
>Paris.

>I suspect that the Judge is the correct interpretation, but want to be sure,
>and ask that someone point me at the location in the rules that describes this.

Sorry for the critical mistake and waste of bandwidth.
--
John M. Roberts   jroberts@sanjuan.uvic.ca
voice: (604) 384-4131   fax: (604) 384-1194
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Subject: Re: Same site? Not!
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 04:03:05 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

> 	Can somebody explain to me why the judge (several of them) are stopping
> me from joining a game because I am in the same site with people at Holland
> College in Prince Edward Island? (I'm at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia.)

What happens is that the judge defines "local" as the same telephone area code.
Thus, since NS and PEI are both 902, it considers you to be same-site.
Actually, in foreign cases, "site" turns out to mean "country" (!)

Now, if some kind soul will make me an admin, I will go through and define
"site" more realistically.  If not, list the game to find out who the master
is and email him (or her; calhamer has a woman GM) with an explanation. In this
case, I would have juggled things to let you in.

  |
--+-- Andy Lipscomb
  |   lipscoja@(ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu,vuctrvax.bitnet)
  |   Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Vote on NMR/noNMR
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 16:27:20 GMT

In article <lku5grINNb2i@levelland.cs.utexas.edu> kbs@cs.utexas.edu (Kenneth Brian Samuel) writes:
>	I fully support Dan Shoham's suggestion! As soon as a power
>goes CD, the master should propose a vote for letting that power go
>NMR. This vote would require yes's from all active players in order to
>pass. If it does pass, then the vote must be retaken before each move
>until the power is eliminated or finds a new ruler. If the vote does
>not pass, the master or a player may propose a set of orders for th CD
>nation (such as mutual support orders) for a vote. Again, a unanimous
>vote would be necessary.
>
>And that is _MY_ HUMBLE OPINION!!!
>(oh god, it's hard to be humble...)
>
>Ken

I've been involved in several votes now, and in my experience it's rather
hard to get all active players to vote on EITHER side of the issue. 
Repeated votes such as you suggest would probably make people VERY
annoyed.  

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: starkey@netcom.com (Sean Starkey)
Subject: Judge newcomer game opening on EFF judge
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:09:21 GMT

The game 'rookie' has openings available on the EFF judge.  This game is for
judge newcomers only.  This is a standard game with default settings.

Sean
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca (Nick Fitzpatrick)
Subject: New Hall of Fame available
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:51:07 GMT

A new copy of the Hall of Fame, including all judge games
finished in 1991 and 1992, is now available, I am distributing
it be E-mail only, so please ask for a copy.  The Hall of Fame
contains a full game by game listing for every player involved
in judge E-mail Diplomacy. 

Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: lokendr@ecf.toronto.edu (LO KENDRICK)
Subject: NMR vs NoNMR
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 07:13:52 GMT

What would happen if a player began playing in a game, played it very
well until he was very close to winning, and either his e-mail system
gets temporarily disconnected or for some other reason he fails to be
notified that he will soon be abandoned?  Instead all his units would
hold, and some lucky dude would just walk over (as long as he had one
extra support)  all his centres.  I certainly would not like to come
back and face this situation; think of all the time one would waster
only to find his centre count drop from 17 to 11 over one lucky break--

I would agree to NMR only if the grace periods are long and it is quite
clear that if the position hasn't been taken over by the end of this
period, that there is a high probability that the situation for that
power is hopeless and perhaps it is better that the game be continued.
Specifically, if the grace period is really short and the move period is
really short, there are bound to be problems.  I, for one, although I
check my mail on the hour, every day, 7 days a week,   would hesitate to
join such a game as I'm sure my connection to the Net isn't perfect and
the judge isn't perfect, AND even something in _real life_ comes up. :-)

IMHO, short turn & grace periods and   NMR are quite dangerous and I
would question how close to a "properly-played" diplomacy game it really
is to deserve EP recognition.  But then of course I may be wrong ---  :)
(i.e. with all the changes in players and CD's, etc.)  It might work
though as it does have a good GM:  To each his own...

Kendrick

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: rho@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Richard Ho)
Subject: Re: ISO Gamer's Guide
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Distribution: us
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:26:18 GMT

In article <1iheojINNkiu@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
>
>I live in Baltimore, and I'd like to get the 
> Gamer's Guide to Diplomacy.  I visited the
> AH offices, but they don't sell anything 
> face to face.

Actually, my local gaming stores and AH have both told me since
mid-Dec that the Gamer's Guide is unavailable "for now". Neither
could give me an estimate of when it will be back in stock. Last time
I checked was about a week ago. Anyone have info as to when
we eager dippers can get our grubby hands on this?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	    |	email: rho@cs.stanford.edu	  P.O. Box 6391
Richard Ho  |	Tel:   415-497 7198 (h)		  Stanford University
	    |          415-723 1809 (o)		  CA 94309, U.S.A.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: noyd@carson.u.washington.edu (Steven N Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Machiavelli
Keywords: Rules
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:53:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1iabl1INNt53
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

js138@cus.cam.ac.uk (John Sloan) writes:

>Flicking through the Machiavelli Rules, I notice in the syntax under
>Movement/Expenditure orders that there is an

><ally> <power>

>option.  Does anyone know what this means?  I can't find any reference to it in
>the rules as given, and can't recall any reference to it in the rules that come
>with the set (I don't posess a copy however).

>Can anyone shed some light?

The Machiavelli rules VII.D.[1,2,3] declare special movement
restrictions.  The ally command (I don't know if it works) 
is intended to allow the controlling player to declare 
another as non-hostile in order to prevent the restriction
of movement.
 
A fleet in (or moving into) Piombino will allow an ally to 
use the strait betwen Elba (the island part of Piombino) and
the mainland.  With the strait open, Pisa effectivily 
borders on ETS.  A fleet in (or moving into) Messina will 
allow an allied fleet (or convoyed army) to pass the straits
between Otranto and Messina.  
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: swd0170@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Semper Paratus!)
Subject: Great comebacks
Reply-To: swd0170@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 21:35:58 GMT

Greetings to all Diplomacy fans,



				I was wondering if players out there would
be willing to share some of their stories about their "closest" games. For
example, in a game I played last year as Turkey...Austria and Russia were
at first teamed up against me. I got pushed out of Bulgaria by the 1902 turn...
was hopelessly surrounded, but managed to comeback and tie for first place. 
Have other people had similar experiences of being faced with certain defeat
but somehow staged a daring comeback? 


			Scott (a.k.a Sultan Khaled-al-Rashid)


_______________________________________________________________________________
                                       |                                   
Scott W. Davis                         |  "The world is moving so fast these 
Rochester Institute of Technology      |  days that the man who says it can't
e-mail in%"swd0170@ritvax.isc.rit.edu" |  be done is generally interrupted by
                                       |  someone doing it."
Semper Paratus!    --Coast Guard Motto |                --Harry Emerson Fosdick
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: imef2@cc.uab.es
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: A very special new game on the EFF judge
Date: 8 Jan 93 12:11:19 +0200
Organization: Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona


	Hello

	I am interested in the existence of the "blind" variant for Diplomacy.
Some months ago, I talked about it with Ken Lowe, administrator of the
Washington judge. He seemed interested for it, but told me he was too busy
to develope the program.

	I am still interested in it, and so much I am, that I am going to
master the game by hand.

	I have asked to David Kovar (administrator of the EFF judge) permission
to create a new game in EFF. He has conceded.

	I have created the game "blind". At first, "blind" seems a standard
gunboat game with white press. However, it is only aparently. In fact the judge
will not moderate the game, but it will be moderated by my own hand.
The judge will only serve to the purpose of mail between players.

	The rules I want to apply are mainly these:

	1) Every country "sees" his own provinces and those bordering them.
	
	2) Everybody "sees" what is around his own units, wherever they are.

	3) The ruler of a country sees his homeland and bordering
provinces, even if they have been taken by another power (the citizens still
contribute to inform their legal goverment).

	4) Rule 3 applies even if the country has been eliminated.
This gives some role to those countries being eliminated which can pass
information to a power in order to disloge his first invader.

	5) About movements, every country will be informed about the succes
or not of their movements, and if failed, of the reasons of the failure.
They will also be informed about the opposition they have found when
entering any site.

	There are other rules which consider the role of spies, but I would
suggest not to apply them at the first game, moreover if there is no judge
to control it.


	Do you want to join this game?

	Then do next.

	Subscribe as normaly to the game with your preference list. The
judge will adjudicate powers as usualy.

	Once the game starts I will set a very long deadline (and the "set
wait" status) so that the judge will never process the orders. I will give
the deadlines by hand in every mail.

	You may comunicate with other players as usual by mail, but you
all must submit the orders as private mail to the master. Once the deadline
gone (in the standard way) I will process the orders and will tell,
particularly to every power, whether their orders have gone well or not, why do
they, and whatever he can see.


	I suppose there will appear some management troubles as the game
progresses. I will try to solve them as fairly as possible.

	Moreover, if this experience becomes succesful, then it might be a
nice idea to implement the variant in the judge.


					Yours sincerely

					Joan C. Artes
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: garygm@leland.Stanford.EDU (Gary Brainin)
Subject: Re: Supporting a Support
Organization: Stanford Law School, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 21:33:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.201323.29528@sol.UVic.CA> jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:
>In my last ftf game, the GM invoked a rule that I didn't necessarily
>agree with but seemed to be standard.  That was the invalidation of support
>for units offering support to another attack.  Eg:
>
>France: Pic -> Bel
>	Bur S Pic -> Bel
>	Par S Pic [Bur]
>
>Germany: Mun -> Bur
>	 Ruh S Mun -> Bur
>
>His ruling was that the support from Par to Bur was invalid, because Bur
>was not holding.  The exception he allowed was for mutual support.

   Your GM was wrong, at leat according to the standard rules.  Rule
IX.6 specifically states: "A unit not ordered to move (i.e., one that
is ordered to hold, ordered to convoy, ordered to support, or not
ordered at all) may receive support in holding."

   Thus, while the support from Burgundy (supporting Pic -> Bel) is
cut, Burgundy is still supported against attack.

			-Gary
-- 
|Gary Brainin                     |BITNET: garygm%leland.stanford.edu@stanford|
|garygm@leland.stanford.edu       |UUCP: ...decwrl!leland.stanford.edu!garygm |
|"...the right to be let alone-the most comprehensive of rights and the right |
|most valued by civilized men."    Olmstead v. U.S. (Brandeis, J., dissenting)|
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy