HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Annoying, cloying "wann-be"s
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:56:01 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <R!A==G@engin.umich.edu> Angelica <anonymus+2278@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu> writes:
>In article <1215@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> Ashley, ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com writes:
>>	Each one of the people who call themselves by any one of these 
>>names activly disavows the others and says they are the OneTrueName(tm)
>for a sci-fi/fantasy fan. They also calim their version of what the genera is
>to be the only accurate name for such. If I call a Trekkie a Fen, or any of
>the other names for a sci-fi/fantasy fan they scream. So I gave up after
>being yelled at for trying to conform to the desired names. Let the children 
>>fight it out amongst themselves. There's a new name every month, so why 
>>even try? *Most* (exceptions already noted in previous posts) of the
>people >>involved in this scene are not worth associating with anyway.
>>
>>			- Ashley
>
>Ashley -
>
>I agree with you and I think they are all just a bunch of dweebs 
				       ^^^
>(my favorite name for them).  It is time for them to grow up and
>stop flaming you - if they put their minds to work, they SHOULD
>be able to come up with something a bit more constructive
>to do with their time!  
>
>To the dweebs reading this, don't even think of flaming me!


Okay, rude, ignorant, uncivil asshole. I'm not a "dweeb", unless you try
to define "dweeb" as anyone you don't link, and probably don't know. There-
fore, I *can* flame you all I want. *I* took the discussion with Ashley to
email, but since you want to escalate, so be it.

Seems to me that you a) don't know what you're talking about; b) don't begin
to know anything of "mainstream" sf fandom, and c) make no attempt to under-
stand or care for others feelings, nor other's points of view. The above
agreement attempts to cover, with a broad brush, an awful lot of the people
here, as well as a large number of the people involved with the neopagan
movement. It's statements like yours that make people consider *you* 
rude, ignorant, and childish; that is, *just* like the people you criticise.

	mark
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Yhe church and Galielo
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Keywords: ; 
Date: 7 Nov 92 23:26:08 GMT

In article <BxD4nz.Gw2@umassd.edu> rolls@cis.umassd.edu (Frank Pinto) writes:
>Hello all
>
>I;m new to this group, however, does any
>one have any comment about the church finnaly
>agreeing with Galileo about the center of the solar system?

Just one:  DUH!

Blessings,
Janis
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Samhain & Spiral Dance
Summary: Use of secrecy in ritual and the benefits of facing the unknown.
Date: 5 Nov 92 03:34:45 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1992Nov4.190614.11040@radian.uucp>, markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes...
>In article <1207@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Nov3.190143.3336@radian.uucp>, markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes...



		- most of previous post cut for space - 



:>	The element of the unknown was very important in this ritual, no 
:>one knew that we where going to be dying before the ritual (including me) 
:>and it was appropriate to everyone there not to know. The elements of 
:>surprise in the other parts of the ritual, such as personal workings and 
:>ceremonies also held power by their being a journey into the unknown. If I 
:>had let everyone know before-hand what would be happening when, it would have 
:>been harder to have the same sense of mystery in the ceremony. This is one 
:>of my reasons for keeping the details of the ceremony secret and why every 
:>ceremony I do is kept vague to everyone save the people running it. Secrecy 
:>can be empowering and a jouney into the darkness can be transforming.
:>
:>
:>			- Ashley
> 
>Perhaps the unknown was important, but it seems to me that the people you worked
>with knew you, and the *knids* of things to expect. When I was in a ritual,
>I had not a *clue* as to what was coming, or what kinds of things would be
>expected of me, and had *great* difficulty putting myself into it, finding
>myself often holding back until too late. I *needed* the knowledge to "set"
>myself into the context, and didn't have it.
> 
>	mark


	Hmmm, yes I do see your point. If you are with a group you don't 
know, the initial trust can be difficult. The group I led did have *some* idea 
about the ritual, but actually dying was a complete suprise to all of them. 
If you read about the season and the types of things done first, then you 
might know what kind of things to expect. I would never take someone to a 
ritual without telling them or asking them to read something that described 
the season at least, if not the tradition. However, going in blind, 
ignorant and "in perfect trust" can be a splended execise in opening oneself 
to the cosmos and everything in it.

	I now have an initiate or two to train. You can bet that I will 
*not* be holding their hands as they journeys out to confront the darkness 
and the light. They will go alone. To face it alone without anything but 
yourself is to truly learn how to be a REAL Witch and not just a follower. 
Confronting the unknown is necessary in learning to be yourself. 
Self-reliance is essential in a religion like this. Otherwise, you're guru 
fodder!


			- Ashley


From: Steve.Dugas@iphase.infoserv.com (Steve Dugas)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.infoserv.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: X-trian Right Wingers Strike Again
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:41:00 EST

->From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
->tlvx!sinkhole.unf.edu!uflorida!mlb.semi.harris.com!darwin.sura.net
->!jvnc.net!monmouth.edu!moncol.monmouth.edu!c1741
->Newsgroups: alt.pagan 
->Subject: X-trian Right Wingers Strike Again
->Date: 29 Oct 92 21:15:19 GMT
->
->
->	I heard this bit on Public Radio last night.  It seems that in
->their
->quest to destroy anything remotely invloved with magick, some
->Funnymentalist
->group are sueing various school boards for violation of the First
->Amendment
->and seperation of church and state, saying that fairy tales like
->Hansel and
->Gretel support the religion of Witchcraft.
->	Great news, I think.  Their suit will get thrown out of court,
->and
->they have just recognized Witchcraft as a religion.. :) :) :) :)
->:) :) :)
->
->	Michael Carson
->   c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu
->.sig out of order.
-> * Origin: Gated from uucp to Fidonet by FredGate (1:112/28.0)
      You have a point there about the recognition.  It may be a
 small step but it is a step.  I do hope the case gets laughed out of
 court.  It could set a bad prescedent though, if it's not.
                                                Streamryder

 * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Yhe church and Galielo
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:11:22 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1dolv0INN6hc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary) writes:
<snip>
>   It gets a bit annoying sometimes, being a Catholic, because I've also 
>got this sense of honor that leads me to defend even the most medieval of 
>institutions when people attack them for the wrong reason.
>
>   Yes, the pope was pigheaded. Yes, they are almost all pigheaded. Yes, 
>the only pope in the twentieth century that I can really feel good about is 
>John XXIII (dunno about John Paul I, he died too soon). BUT-
>
>   they didn't declare themselves to be infallible about the earth/sun bit.
>
>   Y'all have gotta understand, unless the pope SPECIFICALLY says that he's 
>being infallible, it doesn't count. Takes a LOT of chutzpah to claim 
>infallibility for anything, true. But that partickler doctrine is only to 
>be applied to questions that are REALLY concerned with the Catholic faith. 
>The pope can change his mind, or in this case the mind of Urban the 
>Whatever, about anything he wants, unless it was declared infallible by a 
>pope who SAID he was "speaking from the seat of Peter". The whole 

Sorry. Not being raised Catholic, I'd never heard of the Simon Says clause
of infallibility.

	mark
From: dlg1@quads.uchicago.edu (deborah lynn gillaspie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Loo seats (was: Re: hate and anger)
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:45:05 GMT
Reply-To: dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


Janis,
Seems to me that an effective way to cure this little problem is to
fasten the seat up when he's got a lower G.I. virus. <evil grin> Fred
and I had this issue out early on, after a few nighttime incidents. In
our house, the seat is normally in down position anyhow, at least partly
to keep cats from taking unsceduled baths!  --Debbie

-- 
Internet:         dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Bitnet:           dlg1%midway@uchicago
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Women and Men Witches
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 08:08:57 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1992Nov4.201530.11945@waikato.ac.nz> simcock@waikato.ac.nz writes:

 >         Gil, does Australia count as Eastern or western?

Such a question is coming apart at the seams in OZ. Even you Kiwis
complain that you no longer feel at home with us, you with your
highlands and climate, so I guess it is in the wind for some time
to come while we sort it all out.

It gets a bit ratty at times, actually.

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Assault Weapons [Was: a few words about election results]
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:55:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.183246.8435@csus.edu> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>a problem with two parts of "assault weapons": those that are automatic
>weapons (or are easily modified to be automatic),

Guns that can be easily modified to full-auto have been legally
defined as full-auto since 1934.  The restrictions on full-auto are
quite severe - legally owned full autos aren't used in crime.
However, these restrictions have not affected the use of full-autos in
crime.

NONE of the so called "assault weapons" laws actually affect automatic
or easily modified guns.  They're all aimed at guns that LOOK like
automatic weapons.  However, just like boring old revolvers, they fire
once for each trigger pull.  No more, no less.

>and large magazine capacity. Neither are necessary for hunting, nor are
>appropriate for defensive purposes in an urban environment.

A few weeks ago, someone was kicked to death by a gang of "youths" a
few blocks away.  A gun with a large magazine is precisely what he
needed.

It turns out that large magazine capacity doesn't actually play a role
in criminal activity.  In both Killeen and Stockton, the perp had
plenty of time to change magazines several times.  A few more wouldn't
have made any difference in the time they took and they could have
continued to shoot as long as they wanted.

>But on the other hand, if I piss off my neighbor, he can go down to the
>store, buy a gun and come back home and shoot me. All in one afternoon.

Not in CA.  The waiting period here is 15 days.

It hasn't helped at all.  It can't help, because the people who kill
and attack others don't buy their guns retail.

>even more frequently. I think the problem most people have is that gangs
>have access to military-style semi- and automatic weapons, and as these
>are hardly necessary for home defense, a lot of us would like to see 
>these weapons taken off the streets. 

You've had a much stricter law since 1934 and it hasn't helped at all
wrt machine guns.  What makes you think it will help with semi-autos?
(BTW - How is a military-style semi-auto different from any other
semi-auto?  Is appearance really relevant?)

Hint: gangs are involved in smuggling and illegal manufacture.  That's
how they get the drugs.

BTW - Interestingly enough, semi-auto rifles are rarely used
criminally.  (Semi-auto handguns are used about as often as revolvers.
That's not surprising as about half the handguns out there are
semi-auto these days.)  Shotguns are far more deadly and used more
often.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:06:46 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>>Since the previous occupant of my house was active in the Men's
>>Spirituality movement, I get a lot of mailings from them.  Many men
>>feel that they've been badly hurt by their 'priviledged' position--
>>denied closeness to their fathers, expression of their weaknesses and
>>doubts, pushed into competitiveness and violence.  Why on earth would I,
>>wish this kind of thing on my daughters?  (Or my sons, for that matter!)

>I hope the men's movement is helping people.  The things I heard about
>it have not been terribly complimentary.  I recall hearing something
>about a seminar given by Robert Bly where someone in the audience asked
>about "how we can get in touch with out feminine sides" and Bly snapped
>at him, "If you're a momma's boy, get the fuck out of the temple."  Now,
>you all know how I feel about saying people have "sides" of the opposite
>sex, but it's not that that I'm defending.  I'm angry about Bly's
>reply. 

Just my $.02 .. If there IS such a thing as a `men's movement'
which is questionable in my mind, my opinion is that Robert Bly is a
detriment to it. I have been participating in what I like to think of
as a men's movement in Men's Groups for several years now, and I have
exactly the same opinion of Bly as what Janis expressed above. It is
unfortunate that the few books that have been touted as `major works' in
the men's movement `Iron John' and `Fire in the Belly' have a very limited
perspective and in the tradition of male tendencies , try to give answers
to questions that can only be answered for each individual man. I agree
that Bly seems to not like women very much and it appears to me that his
`newage' men's groupies are falling subject to the `Backlash' that Susan
Faludi speaks about so well.

I also am very frustrated about the slowness with which many men are
coming around to wanting to build a society of equals, and have had a
tendency to think `women are better', but I know logically that this is
not the case. Women have just been quicker to organize around the idea
because they are they ones who reap the most `obvious' gains from an
equal society. Of course, men will reap many gains as well, but most that
I have tried to talk to on this subject don't see it, and don't think
there is anything to talk about.

BTW.. I had not heard of a men's `spirituality' movement. Can the poster
send me any addresses or phone numbers from some of this literature that
I could follow up on? Pertinent to the discussion we had awhile ago on
women's mysteries and the seeming lack of men's mysteries, I am trying to
take my wife's advice and `Just Do It'.

Blessings
al
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: obsesed sf/fantisy types
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:50:28 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <BxCqI2.HFH@news.iastate.edu>, txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes...
>The people that you have described are probly the way that they are
>because they have no life out side of role-playing. The persona lits
>them exscape from what ever problems they are unable to deal with in the
>real world.  Some have may actualy have a psycological problem and this
>delusion that they have developed is a symptome. 
> 
>ELF-KIN


	This is what I have been trying to establish! Unfortunately, there are 
a few of this type (psychologically unhealthy) on the net and they have been 
quite upset with the good look in the mirror that this discussion has 
provided them with. There are also a number of pagans who are agreeing that 
these people (in their ever increasing numbers) pose a threat to the public 
perception of Paganism in general. I'm not talking voilence here, no burning 
crosses or bricks through the windows, rapes and assults, harassment or other 
crimes, that is the exclusive realm of the xtian fundies. Sci-fi/fantasy fans 
seem to attack members of their own or people they have close contact with in 
petty political squabbles or, at the worst, covens that won't let them in.

				- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: kcater@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kenneth Cater)
Subject: Goddamn measure 9
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 16:37:20 GMT


Number 9 has failed to what magin I don't care....however there is still
Measure 2 and I don't know what to do, so whatever we do we must do with
care....bad issue...bad poem....Please if you do care about No. 2 in
Co. then please show them you anger and frustration with their legal
system we as a group can not allow morality to be dictated by a relative
few and surely not in the law that these few create.

BTW if you have second hand, hard back, esoteric(?) books I have some
friends that are intrested in speaking to you so please e-mail me at
caterk@hamlet.uncg.edu or you can call them at (919)632-0324 her name is
Cathy Buck....

ps first pardon spelling second I am from North Carolina UNCG to the
person or persons looking for people from Norht  Carolina
 sorry North Carolina typeing to fast for my own damn good. 8)


Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12649 alt.magick:5774
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: herb books
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:01:44 GMT
	<lfipipINNalo@news.bbn.com> <1992Nov10.050321.25998@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Organization: Center for Process Analytical Chemistry, UW
Orgnization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science


In article <1992Nov10.050321.25998@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu
(Shava Nerad Averett) writes:

>                                                         No american cultures
>   used the tobacco plant recreationally before europeans arrived here, to 
>   the best of our knowledge (_Hallucinogens_ forget the author, a good book 
>  on new world hallucinogenic use, UCLA Press, I think).  

the old mexicans did ('true history of the discovery and conquest of new 
spain', bernal diaz del castillo, various editions). 

josh
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12524 alt.magick:5714
From: imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain McCord)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Need information on herbs that will abort
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:28:15 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Glasgow, Scotland.

In article <1992Nov10.040829.14845@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>Hrmmm, I remember a rather ugly case in Colorado where a woman fataly
>poisoned herself with an abortificant purchased in an herbal shop...
  There are herbal concoctions that are meant to help with with period
pains etc.  Some of these should not be taken during pregnancy because 
they can cause misscariage.  I'm afraid I can't remember which they 
are.  They'd probably be safer than an abortificant.
  It is probably best that you consult someone in person, and get a
second opinion as well.  How safe this kind of treatment is will
depend on your health and how advanced the pregnancy is.
  

-- 

		~~~~~/\~~~~~
Iain McCord	~~~~/()\~~~~	Thu Nov 12 20:28:10 WET 1992
		~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: How the hell can religion and action not be related?
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:56:38 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov7.080034.27243@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com > billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
 >gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
 >: 
 >: knee-jerk reaction), here you are merely sprouting your own ignorance
 >: of the pagan traditions of Europe which have never sought to dominate
 >: or conquer anyone at any time in history. I have posted Australian
 >: material myself to this group and all of it has been received warmly
 >: and intelligently, which is in marked contrast to some other groups
 >: on the Internet.
 >
 >I suggest you read a little more European history. Or, do you not
 >consider the Vikings and Norsemen to have been pagans? How about the
 >Saxons or Angles or Jutes? How about the Picts or Britons or Celts?
 >
 >Bill

	The Vikings etc saught to conquer for basically mundane reasons,
like land pressure, shortage of resources, and, occasionally, a leader's
desire for power. I am unaware of any case outside the Christian/Islamic
fold where a conquest was undertaken on purely religious grounds: somehow
"conquering the world for Buddha" has the wrong ring to it. In summary,
the pagan traditions of europe never saught to dominate, as gil says, but
individuals did undertake conquests, as bill says.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:01:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.233819.44616@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:

[deleted]

>I see the female as first, the one from which the male comes.  I see
>the female as containing the male.  And I see the male as being sort
>of a mutated female.

[deleted]

>What should have been two x chromosomes
>mutated, broken to become x and y.  

At the risk of fueling flames -- I'm not ready to say that my friend's
ultra-fundie boss is better than TMM just because she's female -- I AM
forced to corroborate at least and only these two statements.  The y
chromosome is a variation on the x; this is why men have so many
sex-linked genetic diseases and why women are carriers.  A man may
inherit the gene for color blindness from his mom, and since the gene is
on the part of the chromosome that's missing from the y, he won't get a
second chance from his dad.  A girl may inherit the gene for CB from her
mom, but she gets a second x from her dad and hence has a second chance
at cancelling out the bad influence of the naughty gene.  It works the
same way with hemophilia and other stuff like this.

This is not to be construed, however, as support for Stephen's position.
I respect his position but do not agree with it.  I think men have
frequently been TRAINED to be assholes and rewarded for being assholes,
but I can't say past that.  Instead of the loaded words "mutated" and
"broken," I prefer the terms "genetic template" and "genetic variant."

Blessings,
Janis

P.S.: Stephen, I know your post was longer than this, but I'm already
late for my office hours, so I couldn't give it a full read/reply.