From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: interesting [and scary] blurb...
Date: 31 Dec 1992 06:22:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Reply-To: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) says:

>In article <1992Dec30.184941.6791@mksol.dseg.ti.com> noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan) writes:
>>How can anyone sit here and say, "I don't want so-and-so to have my
>>organs because I don't agree with his political views."
>
>I don't see why you think this is so unreasonable.  If someone has spent
>so much of their life working towards their values and dreams why would
>they want to help someone with the opposive values and dreams ?
>
>It would cause me great distress, today, that someone who was opposed
>to my ideals of person freedom and liberty could ever get their facist
>paws on my organs.  Let them die in agony, I say.  Why should I be party
>to their continued attacks on the freedom and liberty of my friends and
>family after my organs are in their body and they are healthy again ?
>
>Why the hell would I want to do that ?
>
Because you realize that we are all human, and vulnerable, and that at botoom
we have more in common than we have keeping us apart?  Because you value 
human life more than petty politics?
>
>Why the hell would you want to do that with your own values and dreams ?
>
Same reason.
>
>>I am personally disgusted that someone could have the potential to be
>>so selfish to not share something of which they have no need.
>
>Be disgusted; you won't get my organs either.
>
That's very grown-up and considered of you, I am sure.
>
>I am not an altruist.
>
That is obvious.
>
>Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people
>feel strongly about their values and dreams ?
>
It isn't; it is just always something of a shock to find someone whose
values and dreams are so odious as yours appear to be.
>
>If you have no values and dreams, well, fine, give your kidney
>to Jeffery Dahmer.  Actualy, don't he'll just eat it.
>
If he needs it, I will.  He is a human being, no matter what crimes he has
committed.  
> 
>>Everyone should be a donor.  It shouldn't even be a question.
>
>Sure it should.  Some people have a religous objection to it, perhaps
>their God doesn't approve of mutilation.  Some people, mostly women,
>don't want to donate those organs which would result in disfiguration.
>Some people are just bothered a great deal about the idea of having
>their guts ripped out, even after they are dead.  Not a pleasant thought.
>
Which is why people should be allowed to say no.  But that doesn't mean that
they should not be encouraged to say yes.
>
>Ever consider donating your body to science ?  That's very noble; however,
>you ought to do it with full knowledge of what can happen to your body.
>For example, it could be frozen solid and then sliced into 1 inch cross
>sections.  Sounds like fun, eh ?  It gets more grotesque than that.  Just
>ask anyone who has taken an anatomy class.
>
I work with medical students and medical residents on a daily basis.  I have
a very clear idea of what uses human cadavers are put to.  It doesn't bother
me.  I have no use for my body once I am dead.  Why should I care what happens
to it?
>
>>Why should your dead body have rights over it's organs?
>
>I should have the right today to decide how my body will be disposed of.
>
>>Should your dead body still be considered a person
>>according to the law?  What utter bullshit!
>
>My "trust" is a legal person, and has the legal right to dispose of
>property and other assets.  I don't see an issue with having my "trust"
>dispose of my corpse per my instructions.
>
Well, that "right" is already severely circumscribed.  You cannot, for example,
have your body dumped in the river, or chopped up and fed to the starving
children in the neighborhood (oh...I forgot...you are not a humanitarian,
so that example would not apply to you), or have it stuffed, mounted and
sold at auction.  All of these things are prohibited.  Yet you complain
about something as harmless to yourself as this, and something which may
help a number of other people?
>
>Or do you believe personal property, e.g., the house I spent years
>paying for and working on, should also be "shared" with whoever
>needs it ?  Why is that any different, assuming noone else lives there
>and the mortgage is paid off ?  I don't need it anymore, I'm dead!
>
It is different because your house and personal property have intrinsic
value, and your corpse does not.  It costs your estate nothing...not one
plugged nickel...to give your organs to another person or persons.
>
>>Complete bullshit.  That doctor should go to jail and never get out.
>
>Grant it's far fetched, but it's within the realm of possibility, which
>is all that Andy is stating.
>
Oh, horseshit.  It is also within the realm of possibility that your corpse
might be taken to the hospital kitchen because they didn't have enough
money to buy meat for the stew that week...but it is not much more likely.
I work in this field....a human being's medical care is very carefully
documented every step of the way from the moment of admission until the
moment of death...then his body is tracked from the moment of death until
it is released in the custody of the undertaker.  This is not to say that
the scenario described can't happen...anything is possible.  But it is not
even vaguely likely.  Why don't you worry about something with a serious
probability of occurring...like the chance that you wil be killed in an
auto accident on the way home from the hospital.
>
>-- 
>Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
>

-- 
******************************************************************************
The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very
carefully thought out.  It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the
University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University.
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty,talk.politics.guns