From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Styling, profiling and pretending
Date: 19 Nov 1992 19:15:28 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Nov19.232626.27591@cs.ucla.edu>,
gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>In article <1eejdrINN472@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>>I wrote:
>>>No, I'm sure you're not alone on this.  Yet, there are women who
>>>would think a guy was crazy to make a proclamation like that, on day
>>>one, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with the guy any more.

>>Then, they are the wrong women in the first place.
>
>What do you mean by "the wrong women?"  Maybe they aren't ready to
>hear someone's proclamation yet.  Maybe they are just interested in
>getting to know the other person.  I would think it's up to them to
>decide what they want.
.
.
They would be the wrong women to hear a proclamation of sincerity
and openness. Simply that.

>>In the case I illustrated, it was on the second date that the man
>>told me where he was at.  I've also been told stuff like this on the
>>first date as well.
>
>Speaking personally, I don't make any kinds of commitments after the
>first few dates.  It doesn't make sense to me.  I don't even know the
>other person that well; neither do they know me.  For me, the first
>few dates are a chance to get to know the other person and vice versa,
>to determine if there will be anything else afterwards.  In the
>situation I described, after the second date, we were still just
>getting to know each other.  We weren't even a "couple" until a couple
>of months after that, and she didn't say she loved me until two months
>after we became a couple.
>
>Your mileage may vary.
.
.
Look, Greg. Some guys want to start off on the good foot and say
here's where I am at. It doesn't scare me, or likewise women, to
hear this.  It isn't a commitment, it's a statement of where the
person is.  I mean, the guy may like me, but what he is really
saying is, let's take it slow  if you have any expectations.  And I
don't care if it's a first or fifth date, people do have
expectations.  People think while going through the social motions!
"Oooo, she feels good." "I like that Certs on his breath, I hate
nasty breath brothers."  And so on.

>>>It's too bad we can't wear signs that say "The falling in love
>>>type" ...

>>At least women would have a clue to work on...8 )

>But don't you think you should wait until you know the other person a
>little better before making commitments (or holding others to
>commitments)?
.
.
Young brother, see above.

>>>Also, a relationship where there is an unequal balance in feelings
>>>is not inherently bad.  It is still possible to have fun and good
>>>times with your SO, even if they do not feel for you exactly what
>>>you feel for them.

>>This is playacting and phony in some ways.
>
>I still don't understand how this is playacting and phony, if I've
>been honest.  I guess we just have a different definition.
.
.
Please reread this:
>>Even guys sometimes swing a number on women,
>>verbal or otherwise, along the lines of:  "Well, don't take this
>>outing/gift/good sex too seriously."  That pulls the plug on any
>>electricity going.  You can't be yourself.

I remember going out with a guy and really enjoying myself and the
moment with him. Then the phone rings and it's his other old lady.
Does he ring off politely and concentrate on who's here?  No.  The
rat keeps talking about his extracurriculars. Then when I got mad,
he says, well he wasn't serious, I knew he wasn't and he had every
right to do whatever he pleased. Dude nearly lost his life that
night.

>I know some guys pull some lines on women (and vice versa -- switch
>genders as you will), but I never said anything like that to my ex.
.
.
Greg, will you get a real clue: this discussion is not just about
you and your ex.  This is about how black people generally relate to
each other in and out of love.

>
>When we broke up, she wanted to know why.  When I gave her the reasons
>(basically the ones you're giving -- when one loves and the other
>doesn't, things don't work) she got angry at me.  "Why can't you just
>let me love you?", she said.  "Why do guys always run away at the sound
>of the L-word?"
>
>So basically, I can't win.
.
.
Well, you heard me a couple of days about black men and the L word.

>>>You have as much power in a relationship as you are willing to
>>>retain.

>>Brother, this is the usual macho line.  Sharing each other also
>>means sharing power within the relationship.  There are tradeoffs:
>>how much you are willing to give to the other person in order to get
>>something.  Too bad you can't measure intangibles, like emotions.
>>Otherwise, you just don't sit there and take up knitting!
>
>Well, the only power that applies in this case is the power to be
>hurt, which lies in the individual.  I didn't set out to hurt my ex.
>She was hurt because things didn't work out like she hoped they
>would, that's all.  The only way she wouldn't have hurt is if we'd
>never gone out, or if I'd fallen in love with her.
.
.
Greg, you still don't get it. But you're young...
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Surely, you've broken up with someone, and they've been hurt.  Whose
>fault was that?
.
.
No, I think the ego was hurt in most of the cases.  In the case of
the white guy who committed suicide, I simply refused to save him
at the cost of my life.  I pray for him.

>>Unfortunately, the way the karma of the world works, when you
>>want a serious relationship, you get the players.  When you wanna
>>play around, you get the serious people!  You gotta kiss a lotta
>>frogs...
>
>I hope you are not implying I'm a player.  I think I was pretty
>honest, given the entire situation.  I also never did anything behind
>her back.  She knew exactly what was going on.  She held as many of
>the cards as I did.
.
.
Brother, this was one of my usual philosophical asides, mostly based
on native, everyday truth.  Chill.
>
>I also think relationships work better if they grow on a day-by-day
>basis as opposed to having people make commitments early on that they
>may not be able to live up to.
.
.
Every relationship is different, baby.  Not everything is so cut and
dried as you think.