HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: damm@diku.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 11 Jan 93 13:09:59 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:

>From article <ABL.93Jan8201842@cybill.inesc.pt>, by abl@cybill.inesc.pt (Antonio Leal):
> 
> [Haldeman's Forever War did have mixed outfits;  then, over the centuries,
> first homosexuality became the moral standard, and then Earth became the
> province of a single "perfect" genotype, cloned a million fold.  That's
> probably an object lesson ;-]

>Could you elaborate on that?  Basically, I'd say it proves Haldeman
>was more flexible in his assumptions than Heinlein was.  

Check the dates. Heinlein wrote ST about 15 or 20 years before
Haldeman wrote FW.

>Nothing in
>that book says the trend is inevitable.  Nothing in that book suggests
>that enforced homosexuality (quite as repulsive as enforced
>heterosexuality, and indeed portrayed that way) has anything to do
>with mixed combat units.

Agreed. As I recall homosexuality was growing by the middle of the 21.
century. It was encouraged by the government since it made population
control easier.
-- 
Kristian Damm Jensen (damm@diku.dk)
"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it"
- Tom Lehrer
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:47:39 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1ikiqgINNjnm@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
]In <9301080721.AA18439@rutgers.edu> BECKS@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL writes:
]> The appearance of the sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye" rouses me to
]> comment on the original. Since I don't want to ruin anyone's reading
]> pleasure nor to attract needless flames, I will start by saying that
]> loyal fans of Niven and Pournelle may not want to read this.  OK?
]> 
]> "The Mote.." was a thoroughly mean-spirited book.  It did have
]> certain points of pathological interest. It was a good example of
]> anti-semitism according to the strictly linguistic, or Bobby Fischer,
]> definition, namely it was offensive and demeaning to Jews and Arabs
]> alike. 
]
] I don't see this.  Certainly it was not pervasive.  If you wish to consider
]that the use of Horace Bury was an example of anti-semitism, I think you
]take things much to far.  Neither Judaism or Islam was criticized, Jews as a
]people were not attacked and considered inferior, nor were Arabs.  Bury, though
]a scoundrel, was obviously a very intelligent man.

Actually, Bury was not a follower of Islam. He scorned it. That in itself
cannot be seen as demeaning to Islam since I'm sure everyone can find an
example of some criminal character who was born Christian and scorns that
religion.
 
]> It also had yet another example of Niven's quite extraordinary
]> misogyny, which I don't think has been mentioned on the net.  If a
]
]  Well, having read very little of Niven alone, I can't comment to this.  I
]can't say I've seen it in his collaborative works with Pournelle or Barnes,
]though.
]
]
]semper fi,
]
]Jammer Jim Miller 
]Texas A&M University '89 and '91

Hit 'n' now to avoid an obnoxious sig thingie.

Subject: Patrick Chester            | This is your Ship:                       
Age: NOYB                           |                ,,,__________.           
Address: A place                    |          |--/****************\_           
Email:wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu    |          |-<###################>        
Political Views: Somewhere in orbit |             ///  ~~~~{}~~~~~'''         
Blackmarks: Politically Incorrect   |            ///        [---              
(hobbies)   Anime/Star Trek Otaku   | <@@@@@@@@@@@@@>                         
            Technophile             |    (not much w/ this sort of text)       
            Netrekker (claypigeon)  |                                         
Recommendation: Ignore              | This is your Ship after fighting the Borg:
   (not worth shoot-on-sight orders)| <*****BOOOOOM*****>   Any questions?    
-- 
<***** INSERT LAWSUIT DEFLECTION TEXT*****> 

I speak (type actually) for myself only. Even if I did decide to 
speak for UT, no one would listen. 

Flame away, I don't bleedin' care...
From: SteveWall@aol.com (Steve Wall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:05:30 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Anhedonics Anonymous

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu>,
williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) wrote:
> 
> I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
> worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???
> 
> Here is my list of suspects:
[various arguments deleted]
> 
> It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
> NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
> that momentous?
> --
I'm waiting for the next David Brin (any plot line, but I like Uplift
espec)
Several others who were mentioned previously.

I think part of your problem is the subjective nature of memory.  We all
tend
to complain that things were better "in the good old days", because we all
remember the good times (or books in this case) better than the bad. 
There's
always been lots of pulp SF & Fantasy, just as there's always been a lot of
violence in society.  It's just that the violent crimes of yesteryear are
mostly forgotten as historically insignificant, while today's are still
fresh
in memory.  The same principals apply to SF & Fantasy.  I'm trying to
remember
a really bad SF writer of the old days, but (as expected) I can't remember
one offhand.  Perhaps someone could contribute their favorite 'better off
dead' writers?

Steve Wall  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 04:20:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu>
     williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams) writes:

>I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
>worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???

   [ Lots more complaining deleted ]

   Personally, one of the things that "killed" SF is the simple
proliferation of technology.  We've split the atom and looked within to
find the quark.  The "science FICTION" of H. G. Wells is no longer so
unfathomable; we know, _in theory_, how to make nanotech work, we just
ain't got the hardware to do it yet.  We know, _in theory_, what
cyberspace _could_ look like, we just ain't got the hardware to do it
yet.  But we're working on it.

   One of the things that "killed" SF, then, is science itself; the
ideas and innovations heralded by science fiction aren't the whizbang
fantasies of geniuses and imbeciles anymore.  We *know* beyond a
reasonable doubt what is science fiction and what is fantasy nowadays,
and it's harder to write SF in that light.

         Elf !!!


--
elf@halcyon.com  (Elf Sternberg)

Then, I was inspired.               God, thy will is hard
Now, I'm sad and tired.             But you hold every card.
Listen, surely I've exceeded        I will drink your cup of poison.
Expectations.                       Nail me to your cross and break me.
Tried for three years,              Bleed me, beat me.
Seems like thirty.                  Kill me.
Could you ask as much               Take me now.
From any other man?                 Before I change my mind.
From: David.Dyer-bennet@f0.n1047.z0.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Niven/pournelle
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 12:40:33 -0600

 SC> I remember reading somewhere that
 SC> Heinlein made a major contribution to "the
 SC> Mote in God's Eye," and that this is the
 SC> reason the book stands so far above
 SC> anything else Niven and Pournelle have
 SC> come up with either alone or together.

 SC> The story was that an early version was sent to Heinlein who sent back 60
 SC> pages of suggestions.

 SC> Does anybody know more about this?

My version says "45 single-spaced pages", but close enough.  I have a minor
problem now: I can't absolutely remember if some of my information might have
been given in confidence, so I can't actually cite it.  However, I believe this
letter exists.  Apologies to all for essentially asking to be taken as an
authority, and please feel free not to anyway :-)

And I *very* badly want to read it.  Maybe it'll appear in future volumes of
Grumbles From the Grave, if any.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:18:34 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1993Jan7.205709.16746@math.ucla.edu> dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:
>  Evidently, you have not seen the definition, nor any relevant post of mine 
>or Eric's.  For the definition in question comes from the sentence

>>> He did not merely `influence' SF, he *defined*
>>>SF as we know it today --- as a literature of plausible extrapolation
>centered
>>>on human reactions to technological change and challenge.

>  which Eric wrote.  I had questions and objections to that definition.

Um, I've really been trying to avoid this, David, but is it possible
that you're missing a subtle use of the word "defined" here?  What
Eric wrote makes perfect sense to me in conjunction with my own
thoughts.  One does not have to invent something to define it.  See,
if SF was generally pulp crap with a few gems before Campbell, and
Campbell helped the field change to what Eric has described, then
it is appropriate to say that he defined it as such.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17376 rec.arts.sf.science:4033 sci.physics:22444 sci.skeptic:22278
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Date: 10 Jan 1993 23:31:40 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: stealth.intel.com

In article <1k56CQ#3jPDcK9fKT9G7h4ls34cKFW9=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>In <1incj8INNbme@chnews.intel.com> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> What point is that?  It seems to depend on a fallacious assumption.
>> To wit, that incompressible objects *can* be accelerated by point forces.
>
>I wasn't focusing on the "incompressible" case in Mr. Troup's posting at all,
>though everyone else seems to have.  My point (which you've made in even more
>detail) is that there is a measurable interval during which the object's
>behavior is non-Newtonian.

To whom?  If the bar is compressible, then anyone at the
rocket end can't see that the other end isn't moving in
response to the force, and anyone at the other end can't
see the force until it gets there; and if the bar is
incompressible it certainly isn't Newtonian, and won't move
in response to any force that it must propagate itself.

But, like Howard Hughes learned with the hydraulics in the
Spruce Goose, your physics professor was screwing you blind
talking about "incompressible" materials.

>> Que es que c'est, "Dean Drive?"
>
>A complicated mechanical device which supposedly functioned as a "reactionless
>drive".

Ah.  And how did it supposedly accomplish this?

				--Blair
				  "If perpetual motion were
				   legal, it would kill more
				   people than smoking."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From:  (David Ingham)
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Organization: Beer R Us
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:07:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written

In article <1614@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
wrote:
> 
> In article <1inlrnINN5m6@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
> >  Well, to me it seemed obvious.  We had the ring, the good guys were in the 
> >West, the bad guys were in the East, the good guys had once been much stronger
> >than they were now, there was a group of horse-people (Ramen and Ranyhyn vs.
> >the Rohirrim --very different cultures though), we had a volcano play an import-
> >ant part in the story, plus the part you mentioned, etc.
> 
> 	I'll give you SOME parallel on the Rohirrim and the Ramen, but the
> cultural differences make it at best a lip-service parallel. The Ring of
> Sauron was an inherently corruptive influence -- more parallel, in fact,
> to the Ravers or Illearth Stone than to the Ring that Covenant wielded.
> The main bad guy in the Covenant series could be, and was, confronted by
> the Good Guy; Sauron could not be faced by anyone in Middle-Earth. 
> Paradoxically, of course, Sauron who couldn't be directly attacked COULD be,
> and was, completely vanquished and destroyed, while Lord Foul could not
> ever be destroyed or defeated for all time.
>
But he was, when Covenant died. :) 
> 	
> 	What I'm saying is that the parallels you're seeing are actually
> just elements which, with very little variation, will show up in almost 
> ALL epic quests; I think that the biggest Tolkien influence in the 
> Covenant series was in Donaldson's attempt to make the world of the Land
> detailed and self-contained. Other than that, I see little relationship --
> that is, I think that you could find equally weak parallels between ANY
> two works in the same general field (Hmm, even between LotR and Amber,
> I think I could...)
> 
> 
>                                  Sea Wasp
>                                    /^\
>                                    ;;;

I agree.  I view Tolkein as more or less mythology.  Tolkein is really
telling a story (and a great one at that) about events that happened in
Middle Earth.  Character motivation is not that important.  Donaldson, on
the other hand, wrote a story about Covenants struggle to deal with his own
guilt (for having contracted leperosy, driving his wife and son away etc)
and self despite.  Character motivation is the reason for the story.  The
fantasy setting is just were Donaldson decided to place his story.  Could
Covenant work in say a SF setting? 

*************************************************
* David Ingham  *   Place wacky signature here  *
*************************************************
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Wild Cards XI:Dealer's Choice
Date: 11 Jan 1993 22:30:19 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <C0MJ7z.2Cx@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> stile@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Howard Wilson) writes:
>
>Where the heck is the new Wild Cards book?  According to book ten,

	Well, the one after Double Solitaire (Jokertown Shuffle, I think)
has been out since Novemberish.  In fact, the newest one, Turn of the 
Cards, a Capt Trips solo novel, just hit the shelves.  And at the 
end of the month, another anthology, Card Sharks (the WC folks have a 
new publisher) is due out.
-- 
Rick Jones              "People come back from the dead all the time.  I mean,
albert@bcm.tmc.edu       I've come back from the dead.  I bet you have to!"
Systems Support Center  "Well... Yes, I have.  But I AM a professional."
Voice: 713-798-7352          -Rick Jones and Dr Strange, Incredible Hulk #399
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Forever War and Starship Troopers (was: Heinlein - Politically correct?)
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:08:25 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <YAMAUCHI.93Jan12001113@yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu>, by yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi):
   Actually, both attitudes seem a bit dated today.
 
   Imagine if "Starship Troopers" or "The Forever War" were written now
   -- say, by a Gulf War F-117A pilot in his mid-twenties.  The war would
   be high-tech, high energy, and broadcast in real-time, and the
   soldiers would be highly skilled professionals who would know exactly
   why they're fighting -- to win.

Indeed, the philosophy of the Sega generation.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:50:16 GMT

Oh my Gawd.  I'm getting involved in the PFRAHFW again.

In article <1ik53bINNjkj@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:

>As far as PC goes:  Where are the women in Starship Troopers?  Were they
>ALL unfit for infantry duty, so that not a single one could make it into
>a base camp of 10000 recruits?  Sounds a bit suspect to me...

Where are they?  They're piloting the ships.  It's made clear that they are
given this duty because (1) they are more fit for it than men [e.g., better
reaction times] and (2) they are less genetically valuable.

The first is a clear case of statistics abuse; the *average* woman has a better
reaction time than the *average* man, but a given man may well have a reaction
time far better than *most* women.

The latter is debateable but seems to fit in with the general "history and
moral philosophy" principles RAH's projected society posits.

			I'm your only friend.  I'm not your only friend,
			but I'm your little glowing friend, but actually
			I'm not your friend.  But I am
				--TMBG

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: magus@netcom.com (John Schmid)
Subject: Re: Dan Simmons - Hyperion
Organization: Hellwell Enterprises Ltd.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:03:04 GMT

In article <naam.726269753@terra.cecer.army.mil> naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam) writes:

>Prayers to Broken Stones
>	A collection of short stories of mixed genre.  All are good.
>	Unfortunately, about 1/3 are exerpts from his novels.  One
>	of the stories seems to be autobiographical, btw.

The stories referred to as excerpts are in fact the stories or novellas that
later grew (or were expanded/padded take your pick) into the novels.

Personally I liked the shorter versions of his stuff better particularly
"Carrion Comfort" and "Eyes I Dare Not Meet In Dreams" the precursors to 
the novels _Carrion_Comfort_ and _The_Hollow_Man_ respectively.

Regardless, Simmons is worth reading and _Prayers_to_Broken_Stones_ is an 
excellent way to get a broad exposure to the many diverse ways Dan Simmons 
writes.

Ciao
	John Schmid

-- 
John Schmid		Internet: magus@netcom.com

  Do you ever feel like every day is a monday?
Organization: Center for Machine Translation, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Subject: Re: Amber: Triumphant Conclusion?!
Keywords: NOT! 
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: CUMC
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:16:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.141031.23013@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, baps0@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nicole Marie Craig) writes:
|> Sorry I know this has been done to death but I've only just read a copy
|> of Prince of Chaos - the american import with the words THE TRIUMPHANT
|> CONCLUSION TO THE AMBER SERIES written in large letters on the cover.
|> 
|> I only have one thing to say.
|> 
|> HAH,TRIUMPHANT CONCLUSION MY *!@*.
|> 
|> where's the next book? I don't want all the details wrapped up - well I
|> do but I'll settle for most of them. Please, please grovel, grovel etc.

Happy happy joy joy.  I'm not the only person out here who felt that the "conclusion"
to the Amber series concluded nothing but the book.

A certain long-awaited reunion was pointless (except the teasers got my wife to
read the "new" Amber.  The plot was at best silly.

Bleh. 

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:31:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

A10JBE8@niu.BITNET wrote:
> I was recently strongly urged by a friend of mine to read "The
> Illuminatus Trilogy" by Robert Shea and Robert Wilson.  

> Has anybody out there read this book?

Yes.
> If so, did it make you a little paranoid?  
YES!!!!

It's all true you know.


pete
--
*Peter Fenelon -- Research Associate -- Software Safety Assessment Procedures*
Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388
EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built up areas'
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16926 rec.arts.books:23769
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 4 Jan 1993 15:57:33 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

David Stein writes:

	Curtis Yarvin writes:

		If a person pays $20,000 to attend classes for the sole 
		purpose of enjoying himself, is it honest to give him 
		anything other than what he wants?

	If someone would be so stupid, it would be dishonest not to teach 
	him a lesson and force down his throat the collected volumes of, 
	say, Heideger, preferebly in German.

It is, of course, not the student who coughs up the $20,000 a year for
three or four years, but Mummie & Daddie, and it is they who the private
Universities have to please. For some reason Daddie wants to hear about the
football team and not much else, but otherwise they probably don't want
to hear that Junior will do what he wants. 

								RABworm

Did you guys see the licking the Cardinal gave the Nittany Lions? 
(And will someone please tell me just why the Penn State team are 
called the NL's?)
			
					BOXwatcher
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Prometheus Awards?
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:28:02 GMT
Reply-To: kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

I would appreciate it if someone could send me (or, I suppose, post)
an up-to-date list or pointer to an up-to-date list of Prometheus
Award winners.

Thank you,

Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories		       | Never ascribe to malice that which
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | can adequately be explained by
    Palo Alto, CA  94304	       | stupidity.
				       | 
    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com	       |