From: leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:30:39 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general

In article <1992Oct1.171436.622@adobe.com>, pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
|> In article <6910@transfer.stratus.com> leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis) writes:
|> >Once again you have missed the point.  If they aren't in the neighbor's
|> >backyard illegally swimming then this isn't going to happen.  Well it
|> >could, the parents of the children might have a pool.  But as long as
|> >the children are taught to respect other peoples rights, wishes, and
|> >property it will not happen.  Simply as that.  It really isn't that hard
|> >to understand.
|> 
|> Only if the children are perfect. I know I wasn't perfect as a
|> child. Is death an appropriate punishment for trespassing an
|> unfenced, unguarded area?

I didn't say it was.  I don't shoot children that step into the yard.

I have a problem with the fact that you're trying to hold me responsible
for their illegal, unwanted, disrepectful, and uncontrolled actions.  I
didn't ask you to have them, and I sure didn't ask them to come visiting.
If I did and failed to take measures then you have a good case, but that
isn't the case.  I didn't ask for this problem, I told them to stay out.
If they want a pool you build one, mine is off limits.  I'm not a public
service.

You have volunteered my services, unasked and unwanted, to serve in your
best interests.  If I made you responsible for all damages to my lifestyle
whether from earthquakes, fire, vandalism, theft, or collisions you wouldn't
go along with it.  No only that, but you weren't allowed to modify my
lifestyle to minimize your risks.  You can't change my driving habits, hobbies,
wife, roommates, friends, select my home, or vehicle.  I would be sticking
you with all the negative aspects of my choices without any benefit or
representation.  That is what you are asking me to accept from you.  All
because you feel your children are more important to all of mankind than
anything I may have or want.  Total self serving BS!

|> >The first thing you have to understand is that not everyone feels as you
|> >do about this by definition bit.  You have stated that by definition
|> >children are never responsible for their actions and lack of judgement.
|> 
|> No, I said they are not fully responsible. Certainly not to the extent
|> that the death penalty is appropriate.

They're your charge in life not mine!  It is that simple.  I can't control
them, they aren't mine, you have to.  I had nothing to do with them coming
into this world.  Now if you want me to supervise while you create them
we can talk.  Otherwise I have no say, so no responsiblitiy.

|> >Just don't try to
|> >force me to be responsible for your children without having any rights
|> >to control their behavior.  
|> 
|> I think you've invented this strawman of "having no rights to control
|> their behavior." I certainly think it's appropriate, if you catch
|> a child trespassing, to "arrest" them and bring them to their parents
|> and demand that such activities cease.

In this case I'm totally dependent on you being a respectful and caring
parent.  If you aren't I get screwed.  Sorry but many parents don't
have the needed guts to confront their children and lay down the law.
Sad, but true.

My sister is a perfect example.  She will not do anything that really
rocks the boat.  I don't know why, she wasn't raised that way.

One of my neighbors lets their children run wild and will not do anything
about them.  They spend very limited time each day with their children
and don't seem to want it to be unpleasant.  Now if anything was to happen
to their children they would try to hang me.  I don't see why.  They never
do anything to control their children, they don't want to spoil their fun.

|> >Failing to control and educate your children is failure plain and
|> >simple.  Cutting them loose in public places to run wild and annoy
|> >people is a failure to properly educate and control your children.
|> 
|> Would you feel better if I said I agree? Now can we get back to
|> the subject?

Only if you truely understand and what that implies.

|> >Failure to teach them the value in staying off private property is a
|> >major failure.  If they do these things you have failed.  Face up to
|> 
|> Yes, it is a failure. But I think the death penalty is too strong.

I don't throw them in the pool wrapped in chains or shoot them when they
climb the fence.  They invade the pool and climb/fall out of trees of their
own doing.  If I was there to stop them I would, but they aren't stupid
enough to come over then.  They wait until they know you aren't looking
and I'm not home.  Then they do something they know they shouldn't and
may get hurt.  It's a willful act of trespassing and trickery.

|> >If you can't control or trust your children then maybe you need to
|> >change your parenting habits.  Either that or put up a fence to keep
|> >them in an area you can control.  Changing what you are teaching them
|> >is much wiser and effective.
|> Children are not animals to be kept in a cage all their life.
|> There are very few parents that have full control over their
|> children in the face of an unsecured attractive nuisance.

Children are animals.  They are small human animals.  They learn using
the same basic processes that all animals do.  The offspring learn by
example from their parents.  In addition they explore and learn via the
school of hard knocks what their parents didn't teach them.

Just because you don't have the resources to fully watch and protect
your children doesn't give you the right to tap into mine.  Your children
are not and never have been my so important to me that I accept this.
They may be the most important thing in your life, but that was your
choice and doing.

If you expect me to accept this I have a few things that are important
to me that I need your resources to support.  Just don't expect me to
consult you first.  I make the decisions, you just get to bare the load.
Is it a deal?
Newsgroups: ba.general