From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Date: 11 Oct 1992 23:34:42 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: Idealism versus Realism....

In article <1992Oct11.200510.17618@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:

>Allow me to pick up on this tangent.  The way I interpret and agree with this
>is that these leaders are fulfilling the will of the people, namely Serbian
>people.  

I dunno about this....

>The political situation in the war zones, such as Serbian Republic
>of BiH is so unstable, that no single leader could survive without strong
>support form the people.  

Saddam Hussein has managed to stay in power for quite a while,
and his people are not only unhappy with him, but they've tried
to assassinate him several times.  He is only one example.  There
are others....

>And there are so many sides to the conflict
>that people could pick, that you can hardly say anyone was forced to kill
>and slaughter their neighbours.  Most of the people chose to do it on their
>own.  Not even the fear of being expelled from their comunities could justify 
>many of the crimes commited.

Well, friend, let me give you some information which you may not
know about.  It's a phenomenon which the social-psychology people
are quite familiar with, called 'Authority Response.'  I'll
give you the standard lecture (to the best of my memory) so that 
everybody can participate.

[speaking to audience]

You and a stranger are selected from a group to help in an
experiment having to do with conditioned learning.  You both go
into a room with a Doctor and he asks you to select who will be
the Reciter and who will be the Memorizer.  You flip a coin and 
you end up being the Reciter.  The Doctor then takes you both
into the next room, where there is a chair attached to
electrodes.  The Doctor asks the Memorizer to get in the chair
and asks you to help strap him in.

The Reciter seems nervous, but the Doctor reassures him that the
procedure is perfectly normal.  He simply has to repeat the words
the Reciter gives to him via the loudspeaker in order.  If he
fails to give them in the correct order then he will get a 'small
shock.'  The chair is just left over from a previous experiment.

So you strap him in and exit, closing the door, then follow the
Doctor to a small booth nearby.  Inside are a bunch of switches:


O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O   O   O   O   O   O   O   O

5 10 15 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 150 200 300 500 XXX XXX XXX   VOLTS

Mild            Strong          Painful    DANGER!



The Doctor turns on a microphone in front of you as you sit down
in the chair at the panel and asks if the Memorizer can hear him.  
You hear the Memorizer's voice reply affirmative from the speaker 
above.  The Doctor then gives you some pages containing lists of 
10 random words.  He tells you that you are to recite the list to 
the Memorizer and administer a shock when he makes a mistake,
increasing the voltage each time.

The Memorizer asks how high the voltage is.  The Doctor says not
to worry, the procedure 'won't cause any permanent damage.'  He 
then tells you to commence.

Would you continue?

You began reciting the words, being careful to pronounce them
correctly, so that the Memorizer can hear them.  Even so, he
misses a couple, so you throw the switch.  You hear the Memorizer
laugh nervously while the Doctor writes something on his notepad.  
The Doctor looks at you and says 'Continue.'  

Do you continue?

The Memorizer makes several more mistakes, and you increase the
voltage each time.  By the time it gets up to 40 volts, he's
obviously under stress, stuttering and asking for more time.  You
turn to the Doctor, who is busy taking notes.  He indicates that
you should administer the next shock.

Do you continue?

By the time the voltage gets up to 80, the Memorizer begins
complaining loudly, begging that the experiment be discontinued.
The Doctor continues taking notes and calmly tells you to continue.

Do you do as he says?

After 100 volts, the Memorizer no longer attempts to repeat the
words you are reciting, weeping and screaming for you to stop.
The Doctor makes a note and tells you to administer the shock, as 
the Memorizer has not given the correct response.

Do you administer the shock?

At 200, the Memorizer can be heard thrashing around, pounding on
the chair, and yelling incoherently.  The Doctor tells you to
continue.  At 500, you stop hearing anything at all from the next
room.  The Doctor tells you to continue.

To remind the audience, this is the panel of switches....

O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O   O   O   O   O   O   O   O

5 10 15 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 150 200 300 500 XXX XXX XXX   VOLTS

Mild            Strong          Painful    DANGER!

How many of you would continue, throwing each consecutive switch,
until the Doctor tells you that the experiment is over?

[Within the audience, the hands raised at each point in the
lecture continued to diminish.  At the time that this last
question was asked, only one man raised his hand.  He is
mentioned later.]

------------------

Here are the results of the audience's average response:

At 80 volts, 90% said they would continue.

At 100 volts, 20% said they would continue.

At 200 volts, only 5% said they would continue.

At 500 volts and above, virtually nobody said they would continue.

------------------

Here are the actual results of the test:

At 80 volts, almost 100% continued.

At 100 volts, 90% continued.

At 200 volts, 85% still continued.

All told, 80% of those taking the test continued administering
shocks, even through the voltages marked 'DANGER!' and 'XXX'.

------------------

It is interesting to note that people think that they are immune
to authoritarian pressure, yet their behavior is quite different.
The 'Memorizer' is actually an actor, pretending to be receiving
shocks from the Reciter.  (A little light goes on when the button
is pushed....)  The Doctor simply tells the Reciter to continue.
If the Reciter refuses, the Doctor goes through the following
list of responses:

1)	It is crucial that you continue with the experiment.
2)	The shocks cause no permanent damage.
3)	If you do not continue, the research will be voided.
4)	You have no choice but to continue.

At such time as the Reciter refuses to continue, despite the
Doctor reciting all four responses, the experiment is
terminated.  Those instances where the Reciter is unable to
continue due to nervous breakdown, et cetera, the results are 
counted from the last voltage given.

During the experiment, the notes the Doctor is taking are on the
Reciter.  Common reactions from the Reciters due to the stress 
were heavy sweating, nausea, nervous laughter, gasping for air, 
nervous twitching, spasms, and even convulsions.

Yet, as you can see, the results show that most people would, and
did, continue administering shocks until the end.

Those in the audience who raised their hands when asked if they 
would continue administering shocks, even through the voltages 
marked 'DANGER!' and 'XXX,' were those who had been through
similar experiences in the past where they had committed
attrocities against their will, simply because they were ordered
to do so.  As an ex-serviceman put it:

'When I was in a situation like that before, and my Seargent told
me to do it, I did it.  God help me, I'd probably do it again.'

So when you say to us...

>And there are so many sides to the conflict
>that people could pick, that you can hardly say anyone was forced to kill
>and slaughter their neighbours.  Most of the people chose to do it on their
>own.  Not even the fear of being expelled from their comunities could justify 
>many of the crimes commited.

...then I say to you, 'Brother, you don't even know....'

Is it wrong?  Of course it's wrong.  And Shaitan wants both sides 
dead.  Those who condemn the masses for the leadership and
compulsion of the few are playing right into his hands.

-AQ

[I beg Allah's forgiveness for my weakness and insufficiency in ]
['His' service, and I ask for his protection from Shaitan and   ]
[from my own Desires.  None can protect me except Allah.  If I  ]
[have made any errors, I beg Allah to bring them to my attention]
[so that they may be corrected.  If I have made none, then it is]
[only through the Grace of Allah and all praise is due only to  ]
['Him.'                                                         ]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna