From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: guilt & catch 22
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:38:54 GMT

seeker (anon-1421@twwells.com) wrote:

: Thankyou for pointing this out. I never connected with the *of their own free will*
: part. The dictionary says that consent means *to permit, approve, or agree; 
: comply or yield* which is how I was viewing it. I yielded, out of fear. I
: asked myself what I got out of maintaining that I had control and wasn't just
: a victim and realized that it is a piece of denial that helps keep my
: hurt under wraps. If I was a *consenting adult* then I can blame myself, 
: which I am used to doing, and I was not a victim. Somehow being a victim hurts
: more. I don't know why.

To me, being a victim means that I have no power over the situation.  Being a
consenting adult means I do, at least in some part.  Could it be the
"powerlessness" issue that's bothering you?  Maybe denying that you were a
victim goves you a measure of control (or the illusion of control).  What do
*you* think?

: I saw a therapist last night and she told me that since the perp had been my
: therapist the abuse was similar in some ways to childhood sexual abuse. The
: therapist relationship has the power-balance and dependencies somewhat like
: a parent. He used my wounds from childhood abuse to control me. The therapist
: said if I had 2 broken legs, instead of psychological wounds, I wouldn't pick 
: on myself for being unable to get away. 

This is *not* a comment on your ex-, but it seems that in a relationship with
a survivor, especially if *both* are survivors, it's very difficult to not
be perceived as being the controlling, manipulative one.  Either party, and
sometimes *both*, can be in this situation.  I've been called manipulative -
I've called others manipulative.  Does that make it true?  No - it doesn't
deny the *feeling*, but it does question the basis for that feeling.

: : You are seeing someone, but not in a relationship?  Hmmm...OK...  <scratching
: : head>
: 
: Again you are right. I feel safer if I can think I am not in a relationship,
: but of course I am! A budding one, but a relationship none-the-less.

Well, I wish you all the luck in the world in your relationship!

: : : I have nightmares about loving relationships (getting less frequent). 
: : Um, could you be more explicit?  I'm not sure I understand how a loving
: : relationship can be a nightmare...
: 
: As a child, my mother was abusive and my father a very quiet and abused drunk.
: My father, my 3 siblings, and I were often afraid for our lives and we
: each have stories about actions we took to defend ourselves (we 
: have talked/joked about this as adults). With my ex-SO I was often
: afraid for my life.

I know *that* feeling, having looked down the barrel of a loaded and cocked
.357 Magnum before. :(

: I think I learned to equate love with abuse, so someone being loving means 
: abuse cannot be far behind. My ex-SO had me convinced that I did not know 
: how to be in a normal loving relationship (he was right) and that he could 
: teach me (he was WRONG). Again I learned that love and abuse come together. 
: Hence, I panic over love. The nightmares have diminished since I stopped trying
: to run away in my dream and tried to *kill the bastard* instead. When I
: tried to share a tent with a male friend I felt violent inside and worried I 
: might wake up trying to *kill the bastard* who was really a perfectly 
: innocent and nice guy. 

Thank you for explaining - I was truly puzzled.  Have you ever tried lucid
dreaming?  Supposedly, it gives you control over your dreams, such that you
can change your actions in dreams, becoming more aware of what's going on and
control the action.

: I have a really great relationship with my parents now. My father is still
: a quiet drunk and my mother seems to have stopped being abusive (and has 
: no recollection of ever having been abusive). I can feel
: love for them again (I had stayed away emotionally for > 20 years and just
: came back a year ago). But I still bear the scars....

I had to make peace with my father several years ago after hating him for a
very long time.  Unfortunately, he had died in the meantime.

: I was terrified after posting to the net, but this is really helping so far.
: It feels pretty wierd to post such personal stuff ...

We're all glad you're here!  Come again anytime... :)
--
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
-- 
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise