HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: harper@oracorp.com (Douglas Harper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Various things
Date: 11 Nov 92 03:18:32 GMT
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York

In article <1992Nov8.042646.10166@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>a) The other day, I was talking about a technical design with someone,
>and they referred to the pending patent on the device.  However, his
>pronunciation of "patent" rhymed with "latent."  I've never heard the
>word "patent" pronounced any way other than with the first syllable
>pronounced like the name "pat."  Has anyone else encountered "patent"
>prounounced with the long a?

Having grown up in a mixed community of American, Australian, Canadian,
English and Scottish native speakers of English, I've heard "patent"
pronounced with both the short and long "a".   Mostly, it was the North
Americans with the short "a".

On a related note, I don't recall hearing anyone pronounce "patently"
with a short "a" until I came to live in the U.S.

Here's another word whose initial vowel is usually shortened in the
U.S.:  "lived", as in "short-lived".

-- 
Douglas Harper | harper@oracorp.com | +1 (607) 277-2020
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: mnemonics in general
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 13:29:51 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <1992Nov9.075220.9100@leland.Stanford.EDU>, jbradfor@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jeffrey Bradford) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov9.043447.5968@dg-rtp.dg.com> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
|> >eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes: 
|> >| In article <29OCT199216261065@adpdp2.lanl.gov>, 108116@adpdp2.lanl.gov (108116) writes:
|> >| > Ok guys!  What mnemonics do you all know?  The more unusual the better, I'll
|> >| > start you off:
|> >| 
|> >| Well, there's the one for remembering the first hundred or so digits
|> >| of pi.  It starts out as "God, I need a drink!"  Can't have been a
|> >| very good mnemonic, though: I've forgotten the rest.
|> >
|> >OK, I don't *think* I'm stupid, but how does one use "God, I need a drink"
|> >to remember 3.14159?
|> 
|> You just count the number of letters in each word.  "God" has three, "I" 
|> has one, "need" has four, "a" has one, "drink" has five, etc.

OK, so maybe I *am* stupid.  Hey, it was late when I posted the question
and for the life of me I could see no relation.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|I daydreamed that I was falling and just before I |
|hit the ground, I fell asleep.                    |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: lange@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Alex Lange)
Subject: Re: acronyms and full stops
Reply-To: lange@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space, Sunnyvale CA USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 14:08:57 GMT

microsoc@black.ox.ac.uk (Microsoc) writes:
: 
: I was always taught that abbreviations which are all in capital letters 
: (and _all_ acronyms, i.e. pronouncable abbreviations) have _no_ periods (fill
: stops) in htem. [Excuse typos please]
: Hence it is BBC, not B.B.C., UN not U.N., USA not U.S.A.

This is borne out by _Words into Type_, 3rd Ed., Prentice Hall, 1974, p. 100:

  Concerning the usage of periods in abbreviations, the trend is
  is to eliminate them, especially ... in expressions whose
  elements are all capitalized (NATO, TVA, AWOL)... .

: Also, no need for a period if the last letter of the abbreviation is the
: last letter of the thing abbreviated.
: Hence Mr not Mr., Dr not Dr., etc.

This is British, not US usage, which usually requires the period;
from the same source:

  The following are nearly always abbreviated: Mr.,..., Dr.,... .

: >My apologies if I made any mistake: I am not a native English speaker
: >(It's even worse actually: I'm French! :-) ).
: >
: 
: And you dare to admit it on a board mostly read by Britons? You're a brave
: man, M. Tholome....

Seems as though the U.S.A., Australian, and Canadian particpants
in alt.usage.english have been discounted!  I'm sure this was a slip
not motivated by linguistic imperialism. (Mark Read: This is not a "flame",
just a poor joke, perhaps.)

Alex Lange
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg)
Subject: Re: vowelless syllables
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 04:17:45 GMT
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg)
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov) writes:
>
>I don't know if I would consider "cwm" and "crwth" as vowelless;
>seems to me that "w" is acting as a vowel in these words.
>

Yes, it is.  The point being made is that the standard prescriptive definition
of a vowel is "a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y," and that this definition is
inadequate.  Both y and w can be either vowels or semivowels.

On the other hand, the m's in "rhythm," "stathm," "chasm," and "orgasm," the
l's in "crackle" and "bundle," and so forth are *not* acting as vowels; they
are syllabicized consonants (and if anyone flames me for using the word
"syllabicized" I will hit them over the head with a copy of Chomsky & Halle's
_Sound Pattern of English_, because "syllabified" seems to mean "turned into a
syllable" instead of "made syllabic," so there).  These are examples of
syllables without vowels.  There is no schwa in "bundle."  The terminal e does
not represent a sound at all.

	Seth "the Lesser"

Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: lange@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Alex Lange)
Subject: Re: What is wrong with "rule of thumb" ?
Reply-To: lange@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space, Sunnyvale CA USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 20:32:36 GMT

casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
: In article <1992Nov2.160251.29355@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>,
: lange@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Alex Lange) wrote:
: > I would strike "rule of thumb" not out of any hypersensitivity to
: > women's issues, but simply because the phrase is hackneyed, worn-out,
: > overused, dull, cliche, and so on.
: 
: Then what would you use in its place?

Simply "rule."  But I do confess some offhandedness; the context
might have suggested even better substitutes for "rule of thumb."

I too was unaware of the brutal origins of the phrase, but I think
that most readers also don't know where it came from.  For that
reason, eschewing it because it is politically incorrect
seemed farfetched to me.

Alex Lange
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: icking@gmd.de (Werner Icking)
Subject: Re: scrabble boredom
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:21:02 GMT

In <1992Nov5.073532.27523@news.eng.convex.com> Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM> writes:

>Looking at a scrabble board you see funny things... like 
>the fact that "debugger" and "begrudge" are but rearrangements
>of each other.

>Trivia question: which set of letters has FIVE distinct words
>associated with it?  Can any find MORE than one of these?
>I have 16 FOURS, and but one FIVE?

With the help of an (erroneous) english dictionary and a little bit
SNOBOL & EDOR-programming I found this - without knowing most of the
words :-(

searing reagins regains seringa erasing gainers earings
ratites tastier striate iratest attires artiest artiste
premise premies spireme empires emprise epimers imprese
rustles results ulsters sutlers surlest lustres lusters
escarp crapes spacer scrape secpar parsec pacers capers
drapes spader spread spared rasped parsed padres
staple septal pastel petals pleats plates tepals palets palest
estral stelar staler ratels salter slater talers laster artels alerts alters
ramets stream tamers maters matres master armets
sparse spares repass prases parses passer aspers
starer raters raster rarest tarres terras arrest
essoin enosis eosins sonsie noises noesis ossein
tensor tenors toners stoner nestor noters trones
tabes betas beats baste bates beast abets
spale sepal salep peals pleas pales leaps lapse
seral reals rales laser lears lares arles
steal stela stale setal slate tesla taels tales least
means mensa manes manse names nemas amens
spare rapes prase presa pares pears parse apers asper
spate septa peats paste pates tapes tepas
prese peers perse peres prees spree speer
ripes prise piers peris spire spier speir
eras ears sear sera rase ares arse

Hey, and that I found, too:

monster mentors

As far as I know such things are called anagrams (Anagramme in German).

Werner
--
Werner Icking        Werner.Icking@gmd.de        (+49 2241) 14-2443     __o
GMD - Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung mbH          _`\<,_
Schloss Birlinghoven, P.O.Box 1316, D-5205 Sankt Augustin, Germany   (_)/ (_)
                             "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." ~~~~~~~~~~~
From: clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: One Who Loves to Travel
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:28:59 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Does anyone know a word for this?  "ohdophile" comes to mind, but I
can't locate it in either NI2, NI3, or the OED.
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618
From: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Dick Cleek)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Taiwan" and "Thailand"
Date: 13 Nov 1992 17:31:13 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <1992Nov13.081142.20470@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, by slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg):
> paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)  writes:
>>Is it just a coincidence, or is there some common linguistic root
>>connecting the "tai" in Taiwan" and the "thai" in "Thailand"?
> 
> I dunno...why don't you ask in alt.usage.thai or alt.usage.chinese.*?
> 


or better yet, try  sci.lang  where, the linguists hang out.

-- 
..........   .........................         .......................
: |_|\/\/ :   Dick Cleek                        dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
:.centers.:   Univ.of Wisconsin Centers         dcleek@uwcmail.uwc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: PIqued!
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:35:31 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Nov10.122923.25536@black.ox.ac.uk> microsoc@black.ox.ac.uk (Microsoc) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.043447.5968@dg-rtp.dg.com> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
>>eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes: 
>>| In article <29OCT199216261065@adpdp2.lanl.gov>, 108116@adpdp2.lanl.gov (108116) writes:
>>| > Ok guys!  What mnemonics do you all know?  The more unusual the better, I'll
>>| > start you off:
>>| 
>>| Well, there's the one for remembering the first hundred or so digits
>>| of pi.  It starts out as "God, I need a drink!"  Can't have been a
>>| very good mnemonic, though: I've forgotten the rest.
>>
>>OK, I don't *think* I'm stupid, but how does one use "God, I need a drink"
>>to remember 3.14159?
>
>Count the number of letters in each word....
>
>Again, it can't be a good mnemonic since I can't remember it, but isn't it
>something like 
>"God, I need a drink (alcoholic of course) after that heavy
>lecture involving Quantum Mechanics?" 
>(Would give 3.14159265457979... is that right, anyone?)
>
>Marc Read

Er..sorry Marc, the value of PI as I remember it to 32 decimals is :

3.14159265358979323846264338432792

The mnemonic that I use is :

Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling,
In mystic force and magic spelling,
celestial sprites elucidate,
All my own striving can't relate!

Unfortunately, this takes care of just 20 decimal places.

Could anyone who has the 100 decimal mnemonic, please post it?

Also, since the value of PI  has been calculated upto a million
decimal places, if anyone has it on-line, could you please e-mail
it to me?

                                                          Thanks
                                                            Mandar. 


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space the final frontier" - Star Trek.
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong"
                                                         - The Beatles
From: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty) 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Soda vs. Pop...
Date: 11 Nov 92 08:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Nitelog BBS - Monterey, CA - 408-655-1096
Reply-To: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty) 

In a discussion between Gabe M Wiener and TOM CHRISTIANSEN:

GW> b) What areas of the U.S. still call carbonated beverages "pop" and
GW>    not "soda" ?

TC> I always wondered why some areas still call them "soda" instead of
TC> "pop".

Illinois, "pop" (at least when I was growing up).  In Massachusetts,
they use "tonic".  Odd!

Regards, Mikey (michael.hagerty@nitelog.com)

 * JABBER v1.3B1 #B042 * Learn Japanese at home, cultivate a nejibiki...
From: prochnpd@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: That Pop thing...
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:46:24 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire


	Howdy all...

	I used to live in Racine, WI and "soda" refers to a class of beverage
as a group...

	"Can I have a soda please?"  or more commonly 
		"Can I have a [specific name] please?"

	"Can I have a Pop?"   This would get you punched...
				a "pop" is a physical blow...
				I think a store manager would think 
				twice though...

	
	Its a bubbler, not a drinking fountain...
	I have no idea what a chocolate syrup is...
	In Eau Claire, I find many people yelling at me for asking for a soda..
	I have now begun to agree to the "soda pop" thing...

	Back to the "pop":
		I just don't see the connection to a soft drink.  could someone
explain the reasoning for that substitution?

PROCHNPD@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert)
Subject: Australian Style
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:38:57 GMT

Subscribers to this group may be interested in a new publication, `Australian
Style--a National Bulletin'.

This is published by the Dictionary Research Centre, Macquarie University NSW
2109; editor is Pam Peters.

Volume 1, number 1, October 1992 has recently appeared.

If you are interested, I suggest you write to the above address.

[Note--This item was NOT issued by the Dictionary Research Centre. I have
received three copies of the first issue (which presumably means I had written
to the Centre at least three times in the past) and thought others might be
interested.

Nevertheless, if you do write, mention this newsgroup.]
-- 

John A Lambert
Centre for Literary and Linguistic Computing
The University of Newcastle NSW 2308 Australia
Phone National        (049)21 5751
      International +61 49 21 5751
ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Bilingual Education"
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:45:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) 

TO: thayes@desire.wright.edu


T>PB> I've become a reluctant partisan of "Amerindian" if only to distinguish
 >> such from "Asian Subcontinent / Hindu/Sikh Indians from the country of
 >> India" - the _real_ "Indians".

T>?

T>As opposed to those who call themselves "the Indian people/nation" and who
 >happen to live in Arizona, etc.?

Oh, my - are you not aware of the _original_ mistake made in the late
1400's by Columbus _et al_ who were _so_ lost and _so_ ignorant of
geography they didn't know the American continents were even there and
they thought they were in India (that _is_ where they were intending to
go, after all), and therefore all these folks they found must be
"Indians". That's the _only_ reason North/South/Central American
aborigines are called "Indians."

T>> But what do _they_ call themselves?  They certainly didn't know they
 >> were Americans when Columbus "discovered" them, and probably didn't
 >> learn this until much later.

T>Two serious questions.  First: what did people of the Asian subcontinent call
 >_themselves_ before "we" called them Indians?

I believe they've been calling themselves "Indians" for four or five
thousand years - India has been called India since Dravidian peoples
settled in the Indus River valley about 2500 BC.

Really, this whole discussion should be moved to History or Geography or
somewhere else.

T>Second: my (non-Indian) friends
 >from the US Southwest tell me that the aboriginal populace refers to itself a
 >Indian (or Cheyenne, etc.); there is a politically active group called Americ
 >Indian Movement; thus, mightn't this serve as an indication that these people
 >could safely be referred to as Indian?

Well, of course they can - they've been called "Indians" for 500 years
now.  That's easily long enough to establish squatters' rights to the
title.

T>PB>I don't particularly like "aboriginal
 >> Americans", because they certainly weren't really "citizens" of America
 >> until fairly recently.

T>I think the idea is that they were denizens of the *continent* we refer to as
 >North America -- or whichever continent this is that stretches from the tip o
 >Panama to the glaciers of Canada -- *not* that they are citizens of the
 >*country* we refer to as the United States of America.

The point I'm making is that these people were here for 11,000 years or
so before Amerigo Vespucci was born, and calling them "Americans" is
as historically inaccurate as calling them "Indians."
---
 . QMPro 1.0 07-2042 . ...from San Jose, CA
                                                                                                                                          
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: lange@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Alex Lange)
Subject: Re: Bailey's 1736 dictionary excerpts online
Reply-To: lange@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space, Sunnyvale CA USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 13:46:46 GMT

lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) writes:
: 
: I have a hundred or maybe 200 entries marked up in SGML.  Actually the DTD
: is still evolving, but that's another story.
: 
: I wondered if anyone would be interested.
: 
What a generous offer!  I, for one, would enjoy seeing these definitions.
Do you have any pull with the OED2 people? But then, this looks like
it's for fun, not profit.

: If I could find an appropriate newsgroup, I could post a word a day or
: something, I suppose, as I seem to keep adding to the thing.

alt.usage.english seems appropriate to me.  (Who is it that can tell
me the precise charter of this group, eh?)  Those particpants who
object can ignore your postings.

One entry a day would be too frequent, in my opinion; looks like these
entries should be savored, slowly, slowly.  But, however you choose... .

: A'scii [A'`skioi, Greek, of a, Greek, privat. and skia`, Greek, a Shadow]

Wonderful!  The not-so-humorous jokes about the "tribe of the Ascii"
don't hold a candle to this Real Thing.

: 
: [DTD (and Author/Editor 2.1 Ascii Styles File!) available on request...]
:                             ^^^^^
Please e-mail me a copy.      But this looks Greek to me. :-)

: Lee

Alex Lange
From: pjh@paula.noname (Philippa Hogben)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Bilingual Education"
Date: 10 Nov 92 11:35:30 GMT
Reply-To: pjh@paula.noname
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article uupcb@pcs.sj.ca.us, paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett) writes:
>Oh, my - are you not aware of the _original_ mistake made in the late
>1400's by Columbus _et al_ who were _so_ lost and _so_ ignorant of
>geography they didn't know the American continents were even there and
>they thought they were in India (that _is_ where they were intending to
>go, after all), and therefore all these folks they found must be
>"Indians". That's the _only_ reason North/South/Central American
>aborigines are called "Indians."
>
How on Earth (literally) was Columbus _supposed_ to have known that America
was there? Nobody had even sailed more than a relatively few miles westward.
[Ignoring the Vikings, for the time being - in Columbus's time the 'civilised'
world was more or less Europe.] They knew India and Asia existed because there
were land routes to those places but there were no land routes to America. So,
with the information that _Columbus_ had, how could they fail to be "_so_ lost
and _so_ ignorant of geography they didn't know the American continents were
even there and they thought they were in India". I'd like to see you do better
with the same information.

Philippa

---
Philippa Hogben   pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk  (Reverse if mailing from Janet)
Any mistakes are mine, all mnie.

I am not a .sig virus. I am a free bug.
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: mnemonics in general
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:44:24 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Nov9.043447.5968@dg-rtp.dg.com> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
>OK, I don't *think* I'm stupid, but how does one use "God, I need a drink"
>to remember 3.14159?

Beats me completely.  I can see how it can be used to remember 3.1415
(by counting the letters in each words), but how it can be used to
remember 3.14159 is beyond me.

-- 
 `Haud yer wheesht!  Come oot o the man an gie him peace.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski   (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk;  iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Fro (Was Re: Floating and Sinking (Stuff))
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:00:57 GMT
	<RICHARD.92Oct29141904@ml.harlqn.co.uk>
Organization: Computing and Telecommunications Services, UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: richard@harlqn.co.uk's message of 29 Oct 92 14:19:04 GMT

In article <RICHARD.92Oct29141904@ml.harlqn.co.uk>, richard@harlqn.co.uk (Richard Brooksby) writes:
) I bet you haven't seen `fro' without `to'.

Well, here's a counterexample to your theory:
"In the early 1970's, Michael Jackson wore his hair in a fro."

So there!

--
William R Ward                         __o   Bay View Software
VoiceMail: +1 (408) 479-4072         _ \<,_  Internet:  hermit@cats.ucsc.edu
SnailMail: 1803 Mission St. #339    (_)/ (_) BITNet:    hermit@cats.bitnet
           Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english