From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 6 Oct 1992 18:10:38 -0700
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In <43621@ogicse.ogi.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:

>The fact that someone presents all the external evidence, which is all
>circumstantial, ultimately, just means they know how to act in a
>fashion consistent with the texts they are following, nothing more.

I said as much in my message, but I added that a person who did display all
the external signs would be a good candidate for an enlightened being. The
list of external signs listed in the Gita would be very hard to imitate for
any extended period of time. But in any case, your point is valid.

>Enlightenment is a state of awareness, and I can't directly see anyone
>else's awareness field.

But you can measure the effect of another influence on your awareness field,
and if you find yourself moving toward enlightenment, material detachment,
spiritual happiness, etc. through relationship with a candidate enlightened
being, then that might give you some insight into his/her state of awareness.
Also, although we cannot directly into the awareness fields of others, I feel
it is possible to pick up on emanations from their awareness fields, as you
call them. One might be aware, for example, of receiving mercy from one's
teacher in a very tangible sense.

>I was going to say, the right behaviour is a necessary, but not
>sufficient condition.  But that's not even true.  Again, an
>enlightened being has access to information most of us don't, and so
>we cannot possibly determine the appropriateness of their behaviour.

Once you are absolutely certain someone is an enlightened being, that would
certainly hold true. In the bhakti-yoga texts that I follow there is one called
Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Rupa Goswami, who lived in Vrndavana, India in the
sixteenth century. He said that fully enlightened persons are indeed beyond
all worldly regulations, etc., but as long as they are in material bodies they
will observe the outer rules and regulations so as not to disturb the minds of
people on the path of spiritual advancement. 

So one would certainly be justified in looking with question upon a candidate
enlightened being who was not displaying the characteristics of an enlightened
being described in the Gita, for example. 

>Regarding this line of succession stuff, having old guru's seal of
>approval doesn't mean to me that new guru is definitely enlightened.
>I would have to believe that old guru is enlightened first.  I don't
>believe any line of succession is immune from degeneration through
>the years. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that an enlightened
>teacher might not arise independent of a lineage.  In principle, an
>enlightened being will rediscover their enlightenment in each life
>time, if they choose to come back.  The yogic seal of approval may or
>may not apply to such a being, but they are enlightened nonetheless.

These are again valid points. In the bhakti-yoga system it is said that there
are three mutually supporting checks and balances--shastra, guru, and sadhu.
Shastra is the sacred texts which describe enlightenment and enlightened
persons. They emanate from the supreme enlightened person, Krishna, who is
considered the original guru. In these sacred texts, it is said that
enlightenment comes from the guru in the parampara, or disciplic succession.
The guru in the disciplic succession speaks of enlightenment in terms of the
sacred texts, as he/she has received them from the previous teacher. The
validity of the guru may also be confirmed by other enlightened persons who
may not be in the same line. But you are right that the succession may break
down. And in this material world, successions do tend to break down. In that
case, says Krishna in the Gita, He Himself will reestablish the succession.
And it may also be true that an enlightened person may arise and reestablish
the succession. All that you have said however is very true and are reasons for
caution. And as I said, even if someone has met all these qualifications, one
should still take time to evaluate the person. The main test will be that one
can feel some positive enlightenment oneself from associating with the person
we regard as a candidate for enlightened being. If there are sacred texts that
describe disciplic chains of enlightened beings, and if you find such
disciplic chains still exist, and there are disciples of previous members of
the chain who have become enlightened, and their are histories of previous
members of the chain who no longer have living disciples but look valid, and
if the current members of the chain are measuring up to the standards in the
sacred texts, and if by your association with one you get the feeling that you
are becoming enlightened somewhat, then you might on a provisional basis
decide it might be worth entering into a deeper relationship with that person,
and it might go on to the point where you accept him/her as a teacher and
eventually you yourself might wind up representing the chain.

>

Druta Karma
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