From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: The New World Order - or is it?
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:11:39 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <9225420.24976@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>
>THE NEW WORLD ORDER - OR IS IT?
>
>by D. Georgiadis.

[deleted]

>The producers should know the history of Macedonia before presenting.

Other people should also know that same history, before writing about it.

>They should know that VRMO was a Macedonian revolutionary organisation
>for the liberation of Macedonia from the Turks and not Bulgarian.

Clear lack of knowledge that these "Macedonians" were Bulgarian
Macedonians. They considered themselves Macedonians but their nationality -
Bulgarian - one of the IMRO's famous statements was "One nation - 2
countries". Maybe Bavarians are not German? Yorkshires are not English,
Moldovians are not Romanians, etc, etc.

>There were only 4% Greeks, mainly traders in Macedonia 80 years ago,

I've rarely seen such ignorance (but there is plenty of it comming from
Australia on history matters). In Macedonia some 70 - 100 years ago, Greek
were majority in the cities, Bulgarians - in the small villages (in the
South of Macedonia). In the north - there were almost no Greek, but many
Serbians. Whatever data I've seen on Macedonia, and whatever the Greek
are/were/weren't/aren't it's ridiculous to claim that they were 4% only.
Maybe in the northern parts of Macedonia ONLY !!!

>who collaborated with the Turkish authorities against the Macedonians.

In fact, the Ottomans were "happy" that the "raya" was against each other.

>In the massacres of "Doxaton" the Bulgarians killed 350 Macedonians who
>wanted to stay with the patriarch of Istanbul and refused to join the
>Exarchist church of Sofia.

Haven't heard about this, but it may be true. But with this the "truth" in
this sentence seems to finish - i.e. your knowledge ends.
First of all, the Exarchist was also in Istanbul at that time. It only
moved to Sofia in 1913 !!! 

Secondly - these "Bulgarians" were Macedonian Bulgarians from the IMRO and
they committed, indeed a lot of activities like this in the name of the
liberation of Macedonia. The Greek's bands (there was a Greek committee as
well) were not "better" - I've never seen anybody claiming that only one of the
"sides" committed attrocities. 

Thirdly - the division of Patriarchist (which meant GREEK !!!) and
Exarchist (which meant Bulgarian) is something which seems you have no idea
about, hence please read before attempting to write something on the
matter. In fact, you are "supporting" the Greek (who were the
"Patriarchists") with your statement from above. Nothing wrong in that,
unless your entire idea wasn't completely different.

>   The greatest leader of the Macedonians was Gove Delchev and the 
>report claims he was Bulgarian - how absurd?

As a matter of fact, Goce Delchev and everybody from that time, claimed the
same. A town was named after him - guess where - in Bulgaria. So  - it's
absurd that he considered himself a Bulgarian? Do you consider him as mad?

>                                            Goce Delchev was born in
>Kukush now a town under Greek rule and renamed "Kilkis".

Kemal Attaturk was born in Salonica, "now a town under Greek rule and
renamed Thessalonki (?sp)"... Get a life ...

> 							   The report
>does not mention anything about the birthplace of such a hero and not 
>only that, enemies of Macedonia are asked about who Delchev is.

Let us read what Baron Giesl, the Austrian Ambassador in Constantinopol
informs Baron Calice about the IMRO and Goce Delchev. A document dated July
7th, 1903 (and can be found in Skopie, if you want to).


"Already last year, at conferences, the leaders of the movement had
discussed the situation and later decided to implore His Majesty the Tsar
and Emperor Franz Joseph to defend the MACEDONIAN BULGARIANS, so that they
would be placed under the protection of His Majesty.
   The greatest merit for adopting this resolution belongs to the recently
killed organizer of the active militant agitation - Delchev".

You can easily find the quoted document in "Documents from Vienna archive
on Macedonia, 1879 - 1907", T. Tomoski, Skopie, pp 125-128.

>does not ask the Aegean Macedonians or the ones from Bulgarian part
>as to how much they suffer?

Why you don't go there and ask for yourself and not terrorize the net with
this rubbish? How can Bulgarians suffer from Bulgarians?

>   Why does not the reporter ask the Turks as to who the Macedonians
>are, after all, the Turks were the rulers of Macedonia for the last
>500 years to 1912-13.

Good, let us ask the Turks:

  Source: Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic,
          by Kemal H. Karpat.

  p.156. Muslim and Non-Muslim Subjects Counted in the Census up to 1895

  Admin. Distr.  Muslims          Greeks          Bulgarians
                F       M        F       M        F       M
  Selanik    216,916 230,948  129,289 147,948  105,064 118,216
  Manastir   108,295 117,239  107,940 119,826   97,459 108,433
  Kosova     140,870 268,862   10,889  18,504  117,459 157,367
              ------------------------------------------------

Total:             1 083 130          534 396          703 998

no "Macedonians" here !!!


In 1905 Hilmi carried out in the three vilayets the first census of the
population since the Turkish conquest, which disclosed the following results:
Muslims 1,720,007, Greeks 648,962; Bulgars 557,734; Serbs 167,701, Jews and
others 77,386, total 3,176,690

Also - no "Macedonians" according to the Turk who ruled these vilayets
during those years.

>   Why William Gladstone the great statesman of England was not heard
>when he said: as there is a Greece for Greeks, as there is a Bulgaria
>for the Bulgarians, Serbia for the Serbiabs, should be a Macedonia for
>the Macedonians.

When did he said this? I know only that he said "Macedonia for the
Macedonians" and I'm trying to find exactly when and where he said this.
This is a very famous phase but I've never heard somebody quotating him the
other (maybe just invented) "for"s.
 
>D. Georgiadis,
>Member of Human Rights Committee of Victoria

Lack of knowlege in history can make a mockery out of the good cause of
acting for "human rights" :-(

>Reprinted lately in Abstralisko Makedonski Nedelnik, on 1 Sep 92,
>as well as other appropriate sources.


Luben

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"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.activism,misc.activism.progressive