HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:04:24 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Separating our kids from public schools
              16 Nov 1992 19:27:59 EST from <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>

On Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:27:59 EST Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,

>I fully support the public school system and would feel that I had done my
>children a disservice by not sending them their.  For one, *nothing* that
>happens in the public schools can alter their relationship with God and their
>value systems, if the parents (my wife and I) have done our jobs correctly.

I disagree Brian, and cite as evidence the breakdown of morals, relationships,
etc. in our society.  The schools are a fundamental under-pinning of society.
They say to the kids who we are as a society, what we think, and what we
believe.  Because children often spend more time at school than with their
parents, those children take a part of their identity from the schools.  That
is difficult for parents who disagree with the philosophies of the public
schools to compete with.  If we believe that as parents, teaching good values
to our kids can elevate them, we must also believe that teaching bad values
can degrade them.  When we teach kids that divorce is something that is
expected, that values are irrelevant, etc., that is going to have an impact on
their view of how the world is and should be.


>Secondly, if they are not exposed to other points of view while they're living
>at home and can ask us about what they means and how they might look at them,
>they will be ill-equipped to live life in these United States later when their
>parents aren't here to help them sort it out.

>
Why can't they be exposed to other points of view outside of the public school
system?  At least in that environment, those other points of view can be put
in the proper perspective.


>I can and do influence the way things are taught or presented in the public
>school system.  A case in point: my older daughter, when in grade school, told
>us that they had watched a movie in class one day that I knew was rated PG.  I
>asked the teacher and principal what "PG" meant.  They said "parental
>guidance."
>I asked when I had had the chance to guide my child in the watching and stated
>that my child's teacher was not her parents.  They saw the point immediately
>and
>PG movies were no longer a fare for viewing in my daughter's classroom.
>Simple.

I have no doubt you are a good parent Brian.  I think you're right that
parental involvement is critical.  Maybe if more parents like yourself were
as involved, we wouldn't be having discussions like this.

Brent
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re:      Re: Pastoral letter
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-15969]: clones
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 05:59:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.181451.26661@news.nd.edu> jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>In article <9211192011.AA04973@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>>
>>Christ.   Without the people there is no Church.
>
>Without the head, the body spasms in death.

What's your point, John?  Christ is the head of the Church.  Has
anyone proposed changing that arrangement?  The Pope is the visible
head of the Church.  Has anyone said he shouldn't be?

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
From: tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM (Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:24:09 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Brent Winiger writes:

>districts by the ACLU for trying to continue their long-standing tradition
>of short, generic prayers at graduation ceremonies.  These districts can't
>fight it, since they don't have the money.  Even though the communities
>are highly religious, one student is able to trample on the privileges of 99%
>of the students in the schools because the liberal ACLU has more money.

This is as it should be.  No matter what public prayer one allows in school, it
is bound to be at odds with someone's understanding of God.  This is much worse
than no public prayer at all.  Besides, no public prayer *doesn't prohibit
prayer!*  You can say all the prayers you want at any time you want and no one
can stop you because there are no thought monitors.  The ACLU isn't stopping
prayer, it is stopping specific prayers and stopping the offering of *one
group's* idea at the expense of another of what is acceptable to God.

Besides, didn't the Good Shepherd leave the 99 to go search for the 1?  How do
you think the 99 felt when they perceived him to be "abandoning" them?  They
were wrong, weren't they?

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:20:22 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cardinal Ratzinger

Forgive me for replying late, but I'm running a little behind.

Excerpts from catholic: 13-Nov-92 Re: Cardinal Ratzinger "Angelo J.
Paguia"@UXA.C (2108)

> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> >On Nov 5,  3:22pm, Eric James Ewanco wrote:
> >} Subject: Re: Nature of List--Fossil
> >} Excerpts from catholic: 5-Nov-92 Re: Nature of List--Fossil
> >} waldbill1981@ISCSVAX.UNI (5372)
> >}
> >} > I appreciate the liturgy when it is focused on Christ alone and NOT on
> >} > the community. (As Josef Cardinal Ratzinger recently said, When people
> >} celebrate the community, they are celebrating nothing.)
> >}
> >} More evidence that His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger is full of it and has
> >} lost sight of the Gospel.
> >}-- End of excerpt from Eric James Ewanco

> >       Eric, calm down.  I think the Cardinal is being quoted out of
> >context.

> >       FRom what I have seen and read he is very orthodox.  The
> traditionalists
> >love him but he doesn't quite take their point of view.

> >GZ

> I am one of those that love Msgr. Ratzinger's teachings and I do not see
> what is wrong with what he said. Although it is in the bible that "Where
> two or three are gathered in my name, there I shall be in their midst.",
> the focus on the community is not complete unless God's presence is not
> acknowledged.

Except that's _not_ what the quote said.  He said, "When people
celebrate the community, they are celebrating nothing."  Nothing about
the celebration not being complete without God.  It appeared that he
believes it wrong to celebrate the community, at all.  I would agree
with your view.  But one difference between Catholicism and evangelical
Protestantism is that the latter focuses on the individual nearly to the
exclusion of the community.  I would be saddened to see a Catholic make
> the same error.

> This is what I think is very different between the protestant churches
> and the catholic church (pardon the small case, I'm not up to it), that
> the protestant churches focus on the liturgy and its application to the
> people's lives.

Most Protestants don't have liturgy, BTW . . .

> In essence, the liturgy has stopped lighting fires in their hearts and has
> become an instruction manual for going to heaven. The point, in my own
> arrogant opinion (perhaps), is missed as to why one should strive to
> reach heaven. Is it not the eternal company of God, in his love, and not
> because it is "nice" to be in heaven.

I agree with Amanda.  This far more aptly describes nominal Catholics
than it does Protestants,  especially evangelical Protestants who focus
on salvation by grace alone. The whole idea of "striving" to heaven
would be anathema to them, because their belief is that one is
automatically (for some, irreversibly) saved.

Eric
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.4 1/31/90)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:00:56 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pastoral letter
              Pastoral letter" (Nov 19,  8:39pm)

Hi Ed,  That IS an interesting slant on things.  And I agree with you
that the American Catholic Church is more likely to be kicked out than
split away.  It is not really our nature to take precipitate action,
but to be more willing to put up with a lot.  But that idea of the
Pope being a Slav is most interesting.

Shalom,                                Len Howard OSL
                                       tas@pegasus.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:11:27 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Priest shortage

Hey, Covert!  While I can read French, not all of the people here can read
French.  What's the point of posting that letter without translating it?

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 16:15:51 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Divinity of Christ...Creation Theology

In article <Pine.3.03.9211201250.C12659-a100000@dante>, WERLING
<awerling@NMSU.EDU> says:
>
>On Fri, 20 Nov 1992, Liz Moreau wrote:
<Stuff omitted
>Question: I have not read the bible looking for this particular issue, but
>I am curious: does the bible specifically say that God is not a woman, or
>does it merely refer to God as a man?
>
<Stuff omitted>
Andrews,

God is a pure spirit and neither male nor female.  However, we need a
personal pronoun to refer to God.  The Bible consistently uses the
pronoun "He".  Furthermore, the Bible refers to God as our Father,
and the Old Testmament refers to God as the bridegroom and Israel
as the bride.

If I say, "Trust in God.  He will protect us," I am talking about
God and His protection.  I am not claiming that God is male, and I don't
believe any feminist who claims she seriously thinks that I am.  If
someone says, as a feminist is alleged to have said, "Trust in God.
She will protect us," that person is not talking about God.  That
person is using God to make a statement about the status of women.  The
status of women is an important subject, but God should not be
used for such purposes.  God is above all, and all should be
subordinated to Him.  (I shouldn't have to say this, but if I don't
someone probably will ask and probably will think he's being terribly
clever in asking:  I did not say, nor do I think, that feminists are
the only people who use, or rather, misuse God to support lesser
causes.  It is wrong whoever does it.  It is wrong whether the
cause itself is good or bad.)

-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Just say know to Gnosticism"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:30:06 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Feminazis" and the "abortion holocaust"

Ted Frank writes:

>the use of the word "Holocaust" to describe it [abortion] is (1) inaccurate,
>(2) trivializes the event in history that has come to be known by the
>name of "holocaust" and (3) is insulting to Jewish people.  Whether you
>mean it to be or not.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, and I find that the attempted genocide of
the Jews by Hitler's Nazis to be profoundly reprehensible and one of the
greatest atrocities ever visited upon mankind by mankind, but I believe you are
mistaken on two accounts:  1) nothing can trivialize an event such as the
Holocaust and 2) a person can only be insulted if they choose to be.  One cannot
insult a group, because a group is not an entity it has no life of its own.  One
can certainly insult individual members of a group but, as I said, only if they
choose to be insulted.

I'm afraid my dictionary defines "holocaust" as wholesale destruction or loss of
life, especially by fire as the *primary* definition.  Therefore, a devastaing
forest file that kills no one is, indeed, a holocaust, the Jews' personal
feelings notwithstanding.  I do note that my dictionary goes on the give a
second definition of "the Holocaust" which is the genocidal killing of Jews by
Nazi Germany.  Therefore, referring to a holocaust and the Holocaust involves
absolutely no ambiguity.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: met48546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marc E. Talbot)
Subject: Re: "ex"-homosexuals
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:08:41 GMT

kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu (Haig Kasab)  writes:
>   IMHO, the Church is wrongheaded to label alcoholism an illness.  An
>illness is something that presumably can be treated and cured, and, as
>everyone knows, there is no such thing as a recovered alcoholic.  Therefore,
>their "urge" for alcohol consumption, and their alcohol-consuming behavior
>are maladaptive behaviors, as they cause harm to the alcoholic and those
>around him or her.

Not that it has a whole lot to do with the topic at hand, but alcoholism IS
categorized as a disease by the American Medical Association, and not as a
maladaptive behavior.  There are plenty of medical ailments for which we have
no cure, but which can be treated.  Such is the case with alcoholism.  Although
there may be no such thing as a recovered alcoholic, I for one have been
recovering from alcoholism for several years.  The fact that my "treatment"
did not involve surgery and medicine doesn't mean that my ailment was not
medical in nature.  Although I'm no authority, I don't think that there's a cure
for diabetes either, and it is treated by watching what you eat.  Does that
make it a maladaptive behavior?

Not meant as a slam, just like to keep people educated!
Peace,
Marc.

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b16
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:10:01 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: polls and women priests

"Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>         There are those who claim that women's ordination would be the
> answer to the vocations crisis.
>
>         Well, we have the means to test that, don't we?  Is there
> a vocations crisis in the Episcopalian Church?

Hmm.  Well, there is something of a shortage of clergy (at least compared to,
say, the 50's), but it is my impression that there is nothing like the
"crisis" described in the Catholic Church.  Seminaries have students,
parishes have priests and deacons, and so on.  And yes, a growing number of
them are women...

However, I have not yet made any kind of serious study of the demographics of
Episcopal clergy over the last 20 years, so this is just a firsthand
impression based on discussions over that time with a number of friends who
are Episcopal clergy or seminarians.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that many Episcopal and Old Catholic
women priests are feeling specifically called to types of service that have
been neglected in recent decades.  Examples are hospital and industrial
chaplaincy, re-opening small rural churches which had been closed when the
local population dropped and hard economic times hit the area, nonstipendiary
ministry, and so on.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: New Catechism
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:27:42 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

31babik@gw.wmich.edu writes:


>I, personally, am waiting anxiously for news that it is actually out.  Did
>the broadcast happen to mention when the new catechism would be available?

No earthshaking news. The book is being released somewhat prematurely in 
France. The article I read this morning is probably published nationwide in 
the major press releases.
fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Priority:     normal
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:42:10 PDT
From:         frank lopez <FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Priest shortage...

> >On a side note, that 'American pride' you mention isn't what worries the
> >Vatican.  It's the American pocketbooks that do make a difference.  The
> Vatican
> >ignores the US at its peril, like the United Nations does.  If financial
> >support for the RCC dwindles here in the US, the shockwave will be felt all
> the
> >way back to the Holy See.


   I read an article, I believe it was in  the LA Times either
during, or just before, the Pope's visit to America in 1987.  If
memory serves me right the article stated that one reason for the
Pope's visit was to drum up support, financial, from the US because
we had fallen way behind Latin America and Africa in this area.  I
don't know the state of our current financial standing but I am
almost positive that Latin America and Africa still lead the way.

   Toodles,
                                 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Frank                         <<<  You'll find out true    >>>
                                 <<<  what mother said to you >>>
                                 <<<  the tears of God        >>>
                                 <<<  will show you the way   >>>
                                 <<<  the way to turn         >>>
                                 <<<                          >>>
                                 <<<  Los Lobos               >>>
                                 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel)
Subject: Re: Priest shortage
Summary: request translation of statement re. anglican orders
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:19:51 GMT

John R. Covert 19-Nov-1992 writes:
>
>However, the following is interesting:
>
>La lettre du cardinal Willebrands, president du Secretariat pour l'Unite,
>en date du 13 juillet 1986, declarait:
>
>Nous attendons l'expression du consensus de la Communion anglicane
>quand les eveques de cette Communion se reuniront pur la Conference de
>Lambeth en 1988... Si, a la fin de ce processus d'evaluation la Communion
>anglicane comme telle, est en mesure de declarer formellement qu'elle
>professe la meme foi... en ce qui concerne l'Eucharistie et le ministere
>ordonne, l'Eglise catholique romaine reconnaitrait la possibilite que
>dans le contexte d'une telle profession de foi, le texte de l'Ordinal
>pourrait ne plus contenir cette nativa indoles (caractere originel) qui
>etait a la base du jugement du Pape Leon Xiii.  Une telle profession de
>foi pourrait ouvrir la voie a un nouvel examen de l'Ordinal... examen
>que pourrait mener a une nouvelle evaluation par l'Eglise catholique du
>caractere suffisant de ces rites anglicans pour autant qu'ils concernent
>des ordinations futures (cf. DO no 1915, du 6 avril 1968 p. 354-355).
>
Please forgive me, John, but since I am not a Quebequa (sp?), I need a 
translation.  From what little I can gather about this from my 1 year of French
and my 7 or 8 years of Spanish, it looks interesting.  Still, a translation 
would help.

Thanks
-- 
Dennis Schenkel, Graduate Student    *****************************************
Ohio State University, English Dept  * Pax Christi Vobiscum...  from one of  *
dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   * those who "...wait in joyful hope..." *
    --My opinions are mine--         *****************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Apparently-To: catholic@american.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:09:07 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 19-Nov-1992 1908" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cd. Mahony on the new Missal

Gordon C. Zaft writes:
>The following is the text of an interview with Roger Cardinal Mahony
>that was printed in the November 13, 1992 "Tidings" (the newspaper of
>the Archdiocese of Los Angeles).
>  ... article deleted
>                        The Lord's Prayer
>
>Proposed new translation:               Current version:
>
>Our Father in heaven,                   Our Father, who art in heaven,
>hallowed be your name,                  hallowed by thy name,
>your kingdom come,                      thy kingdom come,
>your will be done,                      thy will be done,
>on earth as in heaven.                  on earth as it is in heaven.
>Give today our daily bread.             Give us this day our daily bread.
>Forgive us our sins                     And forgive us our trespasses
>as we forgive those who sin against us. as we forgive those who trespass
>Save us from the time of trial          against us.
>and deliver us from evil.               And lead us not into temptation,
>For the kingdom, the power, and the     but deliver us from evil.
>glory are yours
>now and forever.
>

This is identical to the modern language version in the Episcopal 1979
Prayer Book.  In the Prayer Book, both versions are retained.

/john
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: ajpg1322@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Angelo J. Paguia)
Subject: Re: Cardinal Ratzinger
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 21:47:16 GMT

Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM> writes:

>> In essence, the
>> liturgy has stopped lighting fires in their hearts and has
>> become an instruction manual for going to heaven.

>Interestingly enough, while you see this in Protestants, I tend to see it in
>Catholics.

>Perhaps this is s general problem...


>Peace,

>Amanda Walker

I apologize to anyone that I may have offended by stereotyping Protestants.
I was at a loss for words to describe the type of people that I was
talking about. I apologized to Amanda directly, but I am afraid that there
may be others. I need to do this now for I am traveling for a week and
wounds may be deeper by my return.

Taking a snip of my letter to her, I quote(with some editing):

"It has become all too common for people to just aspire to go to heaven
because it is a good place to go to, much like getting a promotion
for a job well done.  It is no longer the doing but the deed, not 
the means but the end. This is what I meant to express."

To emphasize, is it not our love for God that is important and not
whether we go to heaven ?

Taking Vatican II as the new catechism of our time, in particular
its teachings on ecumenism, one finds love and understanding instead
of a warning in the Scripture passage "...but sins against the Holy
Spirit will not be forgiven." In this case, I must remember, however
righteous I may feel about my religion, that the Spirit moves within
the non-catholic Christian churches to teach them and us, and we are
all part of the same Spirit, Protestants, Catholics, born-again
Christians, alike.

And I humbly ask of you peace.

Angelo
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic