HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Orientation / Identity
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:39:15 GMT


One of the essential problems is the 
assumption that orientation and 
gender identity are related.  For men,
hetero culture makes the correlation
early on: you sleep with women BECAUSE
YOU ARE A MAN, and to do anything else
betrays your gender.  Additionally,
you dress, look and behave according
to the hetero-defined gender norm again
BECAUSE YOU ARE A MAN, and cross-
dressing is forbidden, again because it
is a betrayal of gender.

In reality, sexual orientation (Who 
I am attracted to) and gender identity
(Who I am and/or Who I like to emulate)
are not interdependent by any means.
For example, out of drag, I'm a Gay 
man, in drag I'm a straight woman.  
If the two were as related I'd be 
Gay in or out of drag.

Ultimately the empowerment of the 
Transgender community is the message
that we all need to be true to the 
inner vision we each have of ourselves
and to dedicate ourselves to realizing
that vision as fully as possible, 
rather than blindly assimilating a 
gender role stereotype because that's
what men (or women) are "supposed" to
do or be.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Reflections
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:31:40 GMT

an1915@anon.penet.fi (Shelley Porter) writes:

>Generally a TV tells his wife after marriage.  This is as often the
>case because the TV found out himself after marriage as out of fear.

i told my wife after we got married (about three months), within 48
hours of finding out myself.  of course, i'm TS, and not so much TV,
but the same idea applies.

>Sometimes the wife knows before, but knowing and understanding\ are
>very different things.  Like any other boy/girl relationship, the TV
>met his wife dressed as a male.  They were attracted to each other
>and nature followed its course.  At some point beofre or after
>marriage the crossdressing is discovered or announced or shared or
>indulged in.  Now here comes the paradox.  The TV's wife is
>heterosexual: she is attracted to men, and her husband in particular.
>She is not a lesbian, and may not even have an iota of lesbian
>tendency.  Consequently, *the better the TV succeeds in achieving his
>illusing of being female, the less turned on his wife will be.*

assuming said wife is not bisexual, that is.

my wife has told me that she will have a hard time ever accepting me
as female.  she is, however, making progress.  we both believe she has
bisexual tendencies, as well, so we might end up lucky enough to
actually keep our relationship thru SRS (if i ever get that far).

anyway, in my case, crossdressing has nada to do with sexual arousal.
my wife has been refusing sex lately, but i suspect that has more to
do with her being pregnant than with anything else.  i've been
refusing sex a lot lately, too, but that's because a lot of the time
i'm not comfortable having my genitals exposed, let alone made an
issue of.

kelly
--
Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
user.
	-- T.C.Bennett@syse.salford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: wdickeson@mta.ca
Subject: I'm Sorry
Reply-To: wdickeson@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:49:28 GMT

  I'm just posting to say that I'm sorry if any of my remarks were 
taken as offensive to some.  One remark (concerning someone's dog)
was not my doing yet since it was under my name, I do accept 
responsibility for it and apoligize sincerely to both the individual
whom it was directed to and the entire group in general.  I would
like to thank all those who posted and E-mailed me intelligent messages
concerning this issue: contrary to popular belief, I am open to other
people's ideas.  But I would like to point out a few faults that I had 
with this forum- while I was looking for new insights into this issue,
I got the immpression that my ideas where not even considered.  In the 
mean time, I was literally bombarded with messages which were both insulting
and vulgar. I believe my favourite called me an " ignorant Christian
bastard" or something of the like.  Please try and keep your group open
to new ideas in the future as it is in your benefit to do so.
 
                                          Thanks, and LUCK,
                                            "WHY?"
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Reply-To: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:52:38 GMT


In a previous article, wdickeson@mta.ca () says:

>In article <1992Dec14.192314.5431@news.ysu.edu>, ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, wdickeson@mta.ca () says:
>>
Mr. wdickenson seems unable to create a reply above the level of name calling
and hurling of obsenities.  His response does not really warrent a reply, but
he did raise some points that might be of interest to other readers here.

>>> I HATE TO HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS BUT WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD
>>>ANYONE CHOOSE TO BE A CROSS-DRESSER?  
>>We don't choose; God made us this way.
>I have to disagree- unless you are a biological hermaphrodite, you are 
>one (I repeat ONE) of two sexes!
>>
Actually, the world is not as simple as Mr. wdickenson would like it to be.
There are indeed intersexuals: true hermaphrodites, male pseudohermaphrodites,
female pseudohermaphrodites, and others that don't neatly fit the preceeding
three categorise.  Approximately 4% of newborns are intersexuals.  Clearly,
they are a minority, but there are enough of them to form a special interest
group on any campus.

[Deleted Text]

>>YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T
>>>BE BOTH GENDERS THAT'S FOR SURE.
>>Who says?
>>Sanity? God? 

Since I know where I am, who I am, and what time of the day and year it is, 
I am oriented in the three spheres, as the shrinks are fond of saying.
Sanity is not a consideration.  As with many TVs, my female persona is ego
syntonic with my male persona.  This simply means that the two fit together
and there is no conflict between them.

The separation and conflict between one person's male and female selves is the
real problem.  This is evident from the number of posts on alt.transgendered
from people who have discovered others like themselves, and who are realizing
that maintaining this separation simply takes more energy than it is worth.

[More deletions]

>>             Dresses
>are for women and I have the mental capabilities to understand which of 
>the two genders I am.

Try telling this to a band of bagpipers sometime.  Doesn't the Pope wear a 
dress?  When the Bible was written, didn't all men wear dresses?  Gender
specific clothing is socially determined; it changes with society; and it
changes with time.  There is nothing unambiguously feminine about wearing a 
skirt, nothing unambiguously masculine about wearing pants.

Gender roles are also quite fluid.  We used to say a woman's place was in the
home.  Fortunately, the woman's movement in the last few decades has put an 
end to that one.  In the early days of industrialization in New England, women
provided most of the labor in the factories.  This gave them an unprecedented
opportunity to earn money of their own and to become independant.  
(Unfortunately, the system succumbed to exploitation and greed and fell apart.)

Roberta

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: heatherz@world.std.com (Heather E Zahn)
Subject: Re: hating one's body
Organization: Chameleons in the Shadows of the Night, Inc.
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 17:19:58 GMT

Kelley writes:

>When I discovered that I was living in a
>male body, I was horrified, the problem was that my "shell" (no unix
>jokes please ;^)  ) was wrong for how I felt.

No UNIX jokes? You ask too much of us!

msh% echo "Hmmm, I don't like this male shell. I think I'll try a female one."
msh% exec fsh
fsh%

Too bad it's not so easy in real life... :-(

--Heather :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                                             |
|     My soul is cast in crystal but unrevealed beneath the knife.            |
|                             --Peter Hammill, "Gog/Magog"                    |
|                                                                             |
|     Looks like a pump, feels like a sneaker?                                |
|     Do they think we're idiots? But I bought 'em!                           |
|                             --Christine Lavin, "High Heel Shoes".           |
|                                                                             |
|     'O' stands for OOM-PAH-PAH sounds of a tuba,                            |
|     'P' stands for POPE, the Catholic Grand Poobah.                         |
|                             --me, "Heather's Guide to the ABCs".            |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (Sonja Orlavski)
Subject: Re: Interesting Concept
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:24:58 GMT

Roberta Steel (ae907@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:
: In a previous article, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin) says:
: >gender is best measured (as far as i can tell) on a biaxial gradiated
: >scale.  one axis is masculinity and the other is femininity.  (this is
: >a personal theory, btw, nothing scientific)
: Usually we put gender on a single axis ranging from masculine to feminine.
: A biaxial scale offers interesting possibilities.
: Please elaborate on your ideas.  They might get us out of the one track
: gender rut.

Actually, this concept has been expressed before.  (I saw it myself in
a scientific journal article about TG behaviour somewhere.)

What it proposes is rating gender like this:

             Masculine
                ^
                |
                |
                |
                |
Non <-----------+-----------> Feminine
                |
                |
                |
                |
                v
               Non

(I use the term 'classic' to mean stereotypical gender role...)
The upper left hand corner (high-masculine, low-feminine) is classic male,
the upper right hand corner (high-masculine, high-feminine) is androgynous,
the lower right hand corner (low-masculine, high-feminine) is classic female,
and the lower left hand corner (low-both) is neuter.

BTW, according to the MMPI I score high-masculine and high-feminine,
so while I consider myself a M->F TS I'm definately androgynous on this
scale.  (Which I think is an accurate conclusion.)

				-Deb

--
Deborah Parks (RP90)  (SotM 7/91)  DoD #0034  deb@boulder.colorado.edu   ------
"It's being both that's a bitch."                                      --\--- /
"I wanted to take my brain to hell and back and see what I had left."  \  \ //
"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.                \  \/
        Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..."  -DW                      \/
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: a question
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:18:48 GMT


Hiya:

Labels are symbolic things; the meaning
that other folks may attach to a given 
symbol may be diffferent than mine, so
don't take my opinions as the final 
word on the subject.

Anyway, "Transvestite" for me, implies
that someone is sexually aroused by 
certain aspects of crossdressing.  This
for me includes straight or gay
crossdressers who incorporate
crossdressing into their sexual play.

"Transgender" (for me) implies that the
person is crossdressing as a 
manifestation of characteristics not 
typically associated with his or her 
biological gender role.  No specific 
implication of crossdressing as a
sexual act is present, although this is
not to say that someone couldn't cross-
dress for both (or more) reasons.  For
me, Transgender applies to anyone, 
straight, gay or shaped like a square
who is either crossdressing or dressing
androgynously as an expression of their
true natures.  When that nature falls 
outside of the proscribed gender role 
for "men" or "women", transgender
behavior occurs.  Hormone therapy and 
gender-reassignment surgery are one
ty=pe 
of transgender behavior.

"Drag" is one type of transgender
behavior most commonly associated with
the Gay community; Drag is campy,
theatrical and involves a set of
rituals and traditions (the Royal
Court Balls, etc.) that border on the 
creation of an entire subculture.  A
female impersonator working at La Cage,
Aretha holding court at my local bar 
or Annie Lennox doing a video in male
drag are all manifestations of drag.
Boy George and Sylvester are drag 
queens.  -TECHNICALLY- a hetero
crossdresser getting dressed up and 
going out to see and be seen could be
said to be engaging in Drag, but 
heterosexuals may or may not want to 
associate themselves with the drag 
subculture and may or may not embrace
the label.


-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:57:18 GMT
	<1992Dec14.192314.5431@news.ysu.edu>
	<1992Dec15.014155.19049@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
	<rsvanc00.724416161@mik.uky.edu> <BzD3vC.5wt@newcastle.ac.uk>
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United

w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk writes:

>You seem to be using gender here when you mean sex.  I realise that
>sometimes using "gender" instead of "sex" avoids ambiguity were "sec"
>could be interpreted as meaning "sexual activity".

>What word do you use instead of gender when refering to 'masculine'
>'feminine'.

>I am not completely sure if I have got the correct names for the 
>following 3 classes, but here goes:-

>sex = male, female, hermaphadite, neuter

hermaphrodite, but let's not quibble over spellings. :)

>gender = masculine, feminine, androgenous

there's also an 'undifferentiated' for those who are neither masculine
nor feminine.  rather rare.

gender is best measured (as far as i can tell) on a biaxial gradiated
scale.  one axis is masculinity and the other is femininity.  (this is
a personal theory, btw, nothing scientific)

>sexuality = heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, neuter.

'neuter'  should be 'asexual' in this case.  this is also probably
best measured on a biaxial scale, but i haven't figured out the axes
on this one yet.  maybe preference and proclivity.

>IF these 3 classes do have separate "bits" of the brain then it seems
>reasonable to assume different people will have different
>combinations.

i would hope so. :)

>I am not sure where, if anywhere, on the list eunuch should go.

um, asexual, undifferentiated, neuter would be the classical eunuch.

>In certain species creature change their sex naturally during life,
>amoung humans maybe gender and sexuality often change (eg from hetero
>to neuter when you feel apathetic)

that's asexual. :)

kelly, from the peanut gallery. ;)
--
Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
user.
	-- T.C.Bennett@syse.salford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: noid@nick.csh.rit.edu (i live in the dark)
Subject: hello
Originator: noid@nick.csh.rit.edu
Organization: Computer Science House @ RIT
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:43:46 GMT


this is part test, part intro, part question.

	i am a 21 yr old male to female transsexual who is having some 
troulble finding a program in her area.  i am currently attending college in
rochester ny, and would love you forever if you could direct me to a program
in decent driving range.  you can call me noid, ky or kathy.  i will
probably just sign whatever name comes to mind first.

my other question involves hormones and body hair.  i'm part italian (just the
hairy part) and am curious whether or not simple hormones will take care of it
all.  that much electrolosys might tend to hurt a bit and i would like to be 
able to were some form of bikini in the future with out having to bathe in
nair first.  i am curious about this mostly because i was a stupid/confused
15 yr old crossdresser who decided that shaving the chest hair was a good idea.

once again....   hi everyone!!!   i am REAL glad i found you and hope to be
	an active reader/poster.

kathy.....


Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an827@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Grrrrr...... UK & alt.transgendered
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:58:12 GMT

Arrrrrrrrgg......

After working my a*se off learning about news feed systems, and the
distribution system in the UK I finally managed to get the details of UKNet
and persauded them to let alt.transgendered through.....

Hurrah!!!! [I thought - but no longer]

It now appears that we don't get our news feed from UKNet; and
alt.transgendered has not found its way to our news system, so that means
it is someone else [yet another] who is banning this newsgroup.

I AM FED UP WITH THE U.K.

Virtually no one cares, or gives a damned about others, and the ones
who do are too apethetic do show anything or do anything about it.

I get the feeling I am fighting this strugle for little point, and seem
to be virtually on my own with this.

So most other people in the UK now get alt.transgendered...
.... except me.  :-(((((((((

All I want to get in contact with other transsexuals in the UK, for
advice about the procedures/laws in here.

Hmph.

[Hell hath no fury like a womans scorn!]

Ah well - such is life.


Love 'n' Hugs,                    *M*E*R*R*Y* *C*H*R*I*S*T*M*A*S*
    Ian/Julie  XXXXX                         *A*N*D*
                                   *H*A*P*P*Y* *N*E*W* *Y*E*A*R*
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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Subject: Re: Wow! stockings!
Reply-To: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:40:05 GMT


In a previous article, jessica@wrs.com (Jessica Hart) says:

>In article <celeste-101292085449@128.158.16.248> celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste) writes:
>>I and several of my genetic women friends has love/hate relationships
>>with stockings. The only thing I realy like is the way they make my
>
>(and other great rants about stockings and heels)
>
>I had wanted to say that, as a genetic and behavioral female
>(does that make sense?) the concept of "dressing up" and feeling
>feminine makes perfect sense to me. I had wanted to post in support
>of everyone here... wasn't sure if not being a TV, CD, or much of
>any other acronym would disqualify me from posting... but after the
>hateful drivel from "Neil" I now feel I am well within the bounds
>of decency on this group.
>
>I don't usually wear makeup, style my hair much, or wear heels
>or hosiery except little white cotton socks. When I do these things,
>I say I am "going in drag." Or even FULL drag. I hope no TV or CD who
>overheard me would be offended? It just seems that is the word for it.
>That style of dressing does not come naturally to me, and I was not
>brought up to dress that way, but I do enjoy doing it occasionally
>and it makes me feel "special" and even more sexy.
>
>I guess that if I, a genetic female, say these things they sound
>perfectly normal and understandable. But to some people they sound
>abnormal and inconceivable if coming from a genetic male. I just
>wanted to say I don't see why a man should feel any different about
>it than a woman. If those are the clothes society says are "sexy"
>how do we expect little kids who are boys to ignore those messages?
>Actually it seems weird to me that most do!
>
>Is this making any sense or am I also being a dense "straight" person
>and not really getting it?
>
>Anyway, I enjoy dressing up as much as some of you seem to. Does
>that make me a Female Transvestite (FT) ??  :-)
>Or a FCD?
>

What you say makes wonderfully good sense.  Too bad more people don't think 
the way you do.

FT, FCD?  No! No! Not more categories to add to the confusion.  Couldn't we 
just think of you as a well dressed lady?  

Roberta
From: dank@cco.caltech.edu (Daniel R. Kegel)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Hormones and breast size
Date: 14 Dec 1992 00:46:44 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy) writes:
>Areola development does not happen across the board and only the youngest 
>get significant development in their nipples.

Do you have more info on this?  I happened across a book, "Woman on the
Edge of Time", which portrayed a utopia where (among other things)
all three (!) parents shared the work of breastfeeding; everybody
had modestly sized breasts, men and women both, and took lactation-inducing
hormones before the baby arrived from the 'breeder' (a machine).
I'm wondering how practical that is (the breastfeeding part!).
- Dan
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an1907@anon.penet.fi (Kristina)
Subject: Did it make it?
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:49:11 GMT


This is a test, please ignore.

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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered