HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:30:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.122112.13976@bsu-ucs> 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>> Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:

>>>There was talk of moving Ryno back to third when Griffen got
>>>to the majors. He was thought to be THAT good. Well anyway Ryno became more
>>>than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in history 

>> Hee hee.

>> Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...

>So who do you think was better? And please don't say Joe Morgan. Maybe if you
>go back before 1950 you could make a case. Although I admit I should have said,
>one of the premier second basemen in history.

Whats 1+1?  Don't say 2.

Joe Morgan.  Why shouldn't it be said?

No disagreement about "premier," though.
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: scooby@toccata.cc.purdue.edu (Charlie McWilliams)
Subject: Reds mailing list anyone?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:49:08 GMT


Howdy there.  I was thinking of starting a mailing list/"Fan Club" for Reds 

fans.  If you are interested, send me e-mail at scooby@minuet.cc.purdue.edu.

Thanks  

Charlie Mcwilliams


-- 
*******************************************************************************
*     Charlie McWilliams  	     *	"The A's have Dennis Eckersley-	      *
*     scooby@minuet.cc.purdue.edu    *	he doesn't blow anyone!"	      *
*     	                             *			-Steve Stone	      *
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:23:07 GMT
Reply-To: mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
Organization: IBM AIX/ESA Development, Kingston NY

genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:

> tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin) said:

> >Like your 12-12/200/3.70 pitcher, the _value_, then, is measured by the 
> >production he is providing, given that they would have had to pitch *somebody* 
> >for those 200 innings.  His _contribution_ to increasing or decreasing the 
> >team's winning percentage from .500 is virtually nil.  
> That summarizes what I was trying to say quite well.  Contribution is not
> the same as replacement value, and *both* are interesting, for different
> reasons.
> >Dave, if we all agreed to use this terminology (or something else that 
> >a SS with an SLG 50 points above average (or 100 above, or whatever) is more 
> >*valuable* than the 1B slugging +50 (or +100...)?  

Perhaps we need to add some terms to the FAQ:
Use value: value of a player relative to league average. Basically, the
difference between a team of league average players and that team with one
player replaced by the player in question.
Marginal Value: value of a player relative to replacement value considering
position.
Absolute Value: value of a player relative to zero.

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I see great things in baseball. It's our game--the American game. It will
take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger
physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set.
Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us.
	- Walt Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 02:51:25 GMT

In article <GRABINER.93Jan20140019@kovalevskaia.harvard.edu> grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.125019@IASTATE.EDU>, Thomas M Loughin writes:
>
>> But is a firstbaseman who slugs 50 points above average more or less
>> valuable than a shortstop who does the same (everything else held at
>> average)?  What about 50 below.  
>
>Offensively, the difference is the same; if your shortstop slugs 50
>points below league average for a shortstop, while your first baseman is
>50 points above, your team offensive totals will be the same as if both
>players were league average.  One extra hit provides the same number of
>runs, no matter who gets it.

true, but i don't think that was Thomas's point. the question was
rather "how much more valuable than an average 1B is a 1B who slugs
50 points higher than average?" vs the same for a shortstop. the 
value of a player relative to the mean should be (partly) based on the number
of standard deviations from the mean. and if the variance for SS
is less than for 1B (and it probably is), then a SS who slugs 50 points
over average is a more valuable commodity relative to other SS's than
a 1B slugging the same amount over average.

--
charles
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:50:32 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <C1BtEs.KBA@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>Joe Morgan was a decidely below average defensive second baseman, I think.

I think this is too strong a statement for what little evidence we have.
After all, Joe Morgan did manage to keep a second base job his entire
career, not something you'd expect for a decidedly below average second
baseman.  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:58:19 GMT

In article <C17w2o.8BB@Novell.COM> dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich) writes:
>In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>>Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:
>
>>>There was talk of moving Ryno back to third when Griffen got
>>>to the majors. He was thought to be THAT good. Well anyway Ryno became 
>>>more than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in
>>>history
>
>> Hee hee.
>> 
>> Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...
>
>Not only do many people in Chicago believe this, but elsewhere too. And  
>all of these people are not merely "parochial" fans, but also various  
>analysts, historians, coaches, managers, players...

who've never heard of Joe Morgan or Rogers Hornsby?  Hmmm....

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood)
Subject: Re: Js Need for LH SP (Was Schofield...)
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:01:25 GMT

In article <C19Hxu.4Gs@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson) writes:
>In article <kalford-210193083106@staffws.maclab.comp.uvic.ca> kalford@sol.uvvm.ca (Keith Alford) writes:
>
>>From what I read, the Jays are the most money-making team in all of
>>baseball. The Indians make more money (per game) playing as visitors in the
>>Skydome than they do at home.
>
>I can believe this.  They have one of the largest TV and Radio contracts in
>baseball, draw 4 million fans a year and have large memorabilia sales.
>

The Jays likely have the highest *revenue* of any MLB team. However, they
do not necessarily have the highest profit, because of their large
payroll. In fact, in terms of profit, both Toronto and Montreal (!) had
1992 profit of ~ $5M. Claude Brochu proudly stated this fact all over 
Canadian newspapers at the time :)

Simon


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Marwood		 |		  -- Expos, 1993 -- 
marwood@csri.toronto.edu | ASIA ALPHA ASTRA AURORA THEN & NOW LIVE MOSKBA AQUA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Schofield To The Jays
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 14:40:52 GMT

In article <C1251C.84r@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson) writes:
>In <roney.727303904@sfu.ca> roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney) writes:

>>     Geez, the left side of the infield sure isn't looking like
>>something that will bring fear into the hearts of opponents.  Sprague
>>might hit a little, but I don't know about his fielding.  Scofield (or
>>Zosky if he recovers from his injury) might be okay fielders (I'd be
>>surprised if either did as well as Lee did last year, though), but I'm
>>not convinced that either can hit.  Come to think of it, I have some
>>concerns about Derek Bell in left, too (about his bat, anyway).  That
>>whole side of the team seems pretty shaky to me...

>Derek Bell will likely play RF and Carter will play left.  If you remember
>this is the way they started last year prior to Bell's injury.  I think that
>the combination of Bell and Turner Ward will make adequite third and
>fourth outfielders.  The only worries I have with the Jays are the left side
>of the infield and the fifth starter.  Who will it be.  Hentgen?  Wells? or

Gee, if I were a Jays fan, and thank god, I'm not, I'd be worrying about
their third and fourth starters, too.  And maybe their second starter.

Somehow the rotation of Guzman/Stewart/Morris/Stottlemyer/X doesn't
strike fear into my heart.  In fact, this may be the worst rotation
besides Detroit in the division.

>will we have to resort to Leiter.  Right now it is Hentgen's job to lose.  If
>Wells has to go there who replaces him in the Bull Pen.  Just have to wait to
>spring training to find out.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AVERAGE/GOOD values...
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:04:07 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake silber@cs.uiuc.edu:
>
>>   What are the AVERAGE avg/obp/slg values for each position?
>>That is, what are the values that are adequate?  And, as a
>>followup, what are the values that are GOOD, or well above
>>average?  
>
>The Baseball 'Thang posts the averages. They seem consistent
>across the leagues, 
 
 [...]

>In terms of what one consideres
>adequate, that depends upon whether one considers the average
>adaquate, 

Almost by definition, a player who is league-average for his position is
neither hurting nor helping your position in the standings.  The offensive
value of a given player is the marginal impact: what does he give you that
other teams aren't getting?

>It makes sense, for instance, when determining what an
>"adaquate" 1st-baseman is to throw out the Andres Gallaragas
>of the world, since it is clear that the only reason he has
>a job is that he has pictures of Maxwell and several overendowed
>cocktail waitresses. 

I disagree.  For whatever reason, the Galarragas of the baseball world get
the playing time, and it shows up in the standings.  In measuring the actual
contribution of a given player to team standing, you have to take that into
account.  Selecting a draft choice might be different; there you might prefer
to assume that your opponents will all play the best players they can get.

>One might also throw out the top one or two
>players at a position as well, if they are considerably above
>their nearest competitors. (For instance, in the AL, there were
>only about two or three leftr-fielders (Henderson, Mack) more
>than a little above average last year.)

Rather than arbitrarily ignoring actual players, the thing to do is compare
a given player to the average of all the *other* players at his position,
not including himself.  This gives Barry Bonds and Frank Thomas even more
boost, and makes Tim Wallach look even worse, but it's the true reflection
of the standard these guys need to be compared against.


-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Misc. GABSB Observations
Organization: Boo!  
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:23:08 GMT

In <1993Jan27.071519.27098@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>I see that Jack Clark still has a potential useful (even in the 
>Dave Tate sense) role on the Red Sox.  He hit a solid 295/460/421 
>against LHP.  

I've been arguing that against the anti-Clark forces for a while now.

>GABSB inexplicably left Mulholland out of their stolen base reports.
>I find that inexcusable.

I agree.  Noticed that too.

>The fielding stats are unreadable.

Close to it.  What they were trying to do, obviously, is combine
fielding stats with a Games Started At Position Report (done last
year, ommitted this year) so they can save pages.  What resulted is a mess.

2 more observations:

The back cover says that the book has culnulative totals for the last
eight years."  Well, 1984-1992 is NINE years.  These people should
learn addition.

Second, Carney Lansford's range factor is a misprint.  He is listed as
having the highest range factor of any major league third basemen, 3.34
(Gary, are you with us?).  It says 3.34; it should be 2.34.  After
examining all the numbers, and noticing the biggest other difference
between TC and GABSB per 9 was about .4, and Carney's was over 1,
I'm convinced this is a misprint.

Greg
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Ten Best Peaks (was Sandberg)
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:06:11 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed) said:
>In article <1993Jan22.213038.14499@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:

>>Morgan had one of the 10 best peaks ever.

>Sounds like an interesting topic for off-season arguments.  Okay, as a Red and
>especially in 1975-76 Joe Morgan was incredible.  Who else makes the top ten? 
>To qualify, we need someone who had a peak well above what one would expect
>when looking at the rest of the career, and a peak that didn't consist of
>a single great year.  (Of course these guidelines, like evrything else on
>the net, are arguable.)

I think Greg probably meant "No more than 9 guys ever had peak values higher
than Morgan's", not "Morgan's peak was farther above his regular level than
all but 9...".  In other words, ignore "the rest of the career" and just see
whose top 2 or 3 years were the best among all players' top 2 or 3 years.

>To start it off, here are a couple of gimmes:
>Mantle and Kofax.

Hmm.  OK.

Add:

Arky Vaughan
Rogers Hornsby
Honus Wagner
Babe Ruth	(even by your definition; he slugged *.840* a couple of times)
Ted Williams
Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson

If your criterion is height above rest of career, how about

George Sisler
Orlando Cepeda
Roger Maris
Denny McLain
George Brett


-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: i want.
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:57:12 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <1993Jan26.170253.2399@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>Most sources will contain pitching records for non-pitchers, but the only
>source I'm aware of (though I don't own it, sad to say) that contains
>pitcher batting records is the original edition of the Big Mac, published
>in 1969.  

Just want to note that anybody who stumbles upon this edition at a
decent price should grab it.  It really was well done, has stuff like
pitchers' hitting which never again appears on the same scale, and
doesn't contain all the mistakes that creeped into Macmillan's
computer in later years.  

I managed to find one several years ago dirt cheap ($15) at a bookstore
on Mt. Auburn St. in Cambridge, but it generally costs a lot more.

Greg 
Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:38325 soc.women:23001 soc.men:23163
From: pepke@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:19:36 GMT
Reply-To: pepke@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1993Jan21.213609.5377@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>And I repeat that this isn't the issue.  The issue is, do men and women
>reporters have equal access?  How an organization chooses to provide that
>equal access is up to the organization.

I think I see what you are trying to say.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's take a hypothetical world.  In this world, there are men's and women's
sports.  Both men and women reporters are allowed full access to men's locker
rooms in men's sports.  No reporter of any kind, male, female, or 
hermaphrodite, is allowed any access to women's locker rooms in women's 
sports.  Assume different orgranizations control each sport.

Would this constitute equal access according to your definition?  

-EMP
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Re: Six More Guys Avoid Arbitration
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 22 Jan 1993 11:12 EST  

In article <kbanaian.183.0@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu>, 
     kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian) writes...

>>Craig Wilson, Cards

>$340K, one year.  The price of mediocrity continues to climb.

You said it.  We can add Dave Gallagher of the Mets to the list, at around
$400K for a year, after the Mets *released him* at the end of the season.

RG

"We'll just sign Mark Price.  He has great quickness...shortstop quickness."
 -  John Hart, on the Tribe's shortstop controversy
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Phillies/Cards Trade Rumor
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:15:53 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith):
>
>In fact, the Cardinals probably are guilty of just this, because last year
>they moved Royer to 1B at Louisville, giving 3B to Woodson. The stated
>reason was that Zeile had proven he was their 3B but they still likes
>Royers bat so they were giving him a shot at the 1B job. I like Zeile
>as much as anybody, as Sherri well knows, but even I have to admit he
>is not much of a 3rd baseman and if Royer has better range, they should
>have moved Zeile and given Royer 3B. 

The Zeile situation has been confusing me no end ever since the kid came up.
I mean, here's a player with outstanding offense for a catcher, OK offense
for a third baseman, and rotten offense for a first baseman.  So, by all means,
let's never ever let him catch, but instead put him at third with an eye on
maybe first eventually.

Borrowing from the parallel thread on positional offensive adjustments, it's
clear that you give up a *lot* by moving Zeile from catcher to any position
way up on the "average offense" scale.  Third base is in the middle, but first
base is out of Todd's league.  (Note: moving Biggio from catcher to 2B was a
much smaller shift, in terms of average offensive performance across the NL.)

What good is extending the gentleman's career if he's going to be below average
*during* that career?  Let him catch, or trade him.

>Of course they would have had to
>bench the big cat to do that and that would make Maxvill look like an
>even bigger idiot.

Can't be done.

>Their best 3B prospect is 19 year old Dmitri Young but he is likely to
>start the year in AA, and the Cards doubt he is really a 3B. He is prone
>to being a bit heavy, and 1B figures to be his future position.

Pendleton's a bit o' chunk, too, but it doesn't seem to hamper him much...

>Kruk is better than Zeile right now, but is older and with his weight
>problem, probably not likely to be that good for that much longer. 

Position-adjusted MLV's for the 1992 season:

	John Kruk	+23.4 runs (first base)
	Todd Zeile	 -0.9 runs (third base)
	Tom Pagnozzi	 -2.5 runs (catcher)

Move Zeile to catcher, his MLV goes up a lot.  Move him to first base, it
goes down a lot.  Either way, he's not going to be more valuable than John
Kruk next year, in all probability, nor any year soon.

>I would trade Zeile for Hollins but I doubt Philadelphia would be that
>stupid.

They can't be; they don't have Maxvill.

-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost
From: mgriffin@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Mark Griffin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Bo back in the cage.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 08:38:24 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (S. Hariharan ) writes:

>Bo Jackson, who recently underwent an attachment of an artificial
>hip, is back in the White-Sox batting cage.  Source: Local ABC
>Sports News.

>According to the news source, Bo can now run without limping. The
>Sox are ready to play him on first base, but Jackson says that he
>is ready to even DH as long as he gets some action.

>According to jackson's trainers, Bo went through real hell to
>reach the position where he is now.  This is indeed a tribute 
>to the man's tenacity and fighting spirit.



This morning they interviewed and showed Bo in action on ESPN.  I was
surprised, he really looked pretty good.  I don't know if he will be 
successful in his comeback or not, but to have gotten this far is
amazing itself.

-- 
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .  .
Mark Griffin, Sys Admin, Fort Hays State University      |It is always better to
Internet:mgriffin@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Bitnet:mgriffin@ksuvm |do, than be done to.
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .  .