From: deeb@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Stephen Humble)
Subject: Re: Hemp legalization arguments
Organization: College of Engineering, Northeastern University
	<1992Dec10.232902.28056@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:02:55 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez about antibiotic-resistant bacteria:
> And, if they do become resistant that easily then they lose the
> resistance quickly when the antibiotic is no longer used on them.

Why?  I think what happens is, if you expose a bacterial culture to
antibiotics, most of the bacteria die but the survivors reproduce at a
more-or-less normal rate and build up a substantial population
quickly, passing on the genes for resistance to that antibiotic.  Is
this wrong?

When the antibiotic goes away, what makes non-resistant bacteria wipe
out the resistant ones?  If even a few resistant ones survive, their
advantage will return when the antibiotic is reapplied.

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
> : What about drugs that might be used recreationally, but are much more
> : toxic than pot or opiates?  Should I be able to buy large amounts of
> : scopolamine or phenobarbital over the counter?
> 
> Like alcohol or nicotine? You tell us.

I can easily buy a lethal dose of alcohol, but drinking all of it
would take some determination.  A lethal dose of phenobarbital isn't
even a mouthful; it's also smaller in terms of how many effective
doses it is.

I don't have a good answer.  At the very least, I'd like to see
packages of recreational drugs plastered with warnings about known
hazards.

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
> Why shouldn't you be able to buy large amounts of any drug - for
> your own use? If that use kills you, that is your right and problem
> - as long as you don't endanger others.

I'm not worried about people intentionally killing themselves.  I'm
worried about people who just want to have a good time but hurt or
kill themselves because they picked the wrong drug, the wrong time to
take it, got confused and took a little too much, etc.  Some drugs are
very "forgiving" in that sense; others aren't.

Ideally, I think I'd like to see some non-coersive measures to
encourage people to avoid more-dangerous drugs in favor of
less-dangerous ones.  (Can you tell I'm more a Socialist than a
Libertarian? :-)

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
> What is the difference between "reasonable doses" and "any exposure
> to the pure substance"?

For most recreational drugs, nothing.  OTOH some drugs are potent
enough that it's not trivial to avoid getting dosed.  LSD is an
example, but the LD50 for LSD is high enough that people exposed to
LSD just trip instead of dying.  Goodman&Gilman describes the use of
sufentanyl as a surgical anesthetic at doses of 5-10 micrograms/kg.  I
assume that means I'm in deep shit if I absorb 350-700 micrograms and
there's no anesthesiologist around to make sure I keep breathing.
Unfortunately, that's close to what I might expect to absorb through
casual contact or carelessness.

Maybe this is a red herring and no one will ever want to buy a drug
that has to be diluted 10000:1 before use.  I realize now that I had
an unstated assumption that any drug will be present in quantities of
a few grams instead of a few doses.

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
> : Finally (my favorite example!), what about drugs like diethyl ether?
> : Plenty of people like the effects, it's relatively safe in terms of
> : toxicity, but it's so flammable that most people don't have the
> : facilities to handle it without risking being blown to bits.
> 
> Fine, as long as they are away from other people, and other peoples
> properties.

I suspect the people who have to clean up the mess when something goes
wrong (the fire department in this case) take a dim view of such
things even when it's clear that no one else's person or property is
in danger.  Isn't it in my interest to help people who provide me with
a useful service?

Stephen
Xref: sparky alt.drugs:20049 alt.folklore.urban:31667