HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gatenby@v2.cgu.mcc.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:16:46 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre CGU

In article <1e9t94INNgts@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bp652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gil W. Lau) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, shulick@yankton.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) says:
> 
>>I've always wondered, how do you pull off a successful headbutt without
>>hurting yourself?  I've experimented/practiced a little bit (ow!), and
>>found that the part of the skull about three inches above the eyebrows
>>is a TOUGH spot in the skull.  It's ABOUT where the hairline recedes.  I
>>hit a wall w/ my head and it didn't hurt.. too much. :)  Call me
>>insane.. :) 
> 
> You're INSANE!!!

	Yep

Sam:	What I've been taught is to use the part of the forehead that you
describe, but smash it into the bridge of their NOSE - not their forehead. I
can imagine using it to get out of a bear hug (face to face one, obviously) or
perhaps if both of my hands were occupied, but I'm always put off by the
counter:

The counter:  Their forehead is arcing towards your nose.  Place your chin on
your chest. Because their nose sticks out from their face, and you've moved the
target, their nose breaks on the top of your head - this will HURT you
(possibly a lot) but you won't have a broken nose.
	Another counter is to bring an elbow straight up into their face as
their face comes down - but I'm not convinced you would ever have time for this
in such a short-range attack as a head-butt

Seriously though, if you want to start conditioning your head for butts (my
sifu can break 30+ roofing tiles with his head) then you've got to do a LOT of
neck muscle work and forehead conditioning (lie prone and hold your body off
the ground with just forehead and feet) before you even begin to hit anything
with it.

LPAF
	Neil

 Neil Gatenby, Computer Graphics Unit,	| Email: gatenby@uk.ac.mcc.cgu.v2
 University of Manchester,		| Tel: (+44)61 275 6095
 Manchester M13 9PL, England.		| Fax: (+44)61 275 6040
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 	     Strive to Survive, Causing Least Suffering Possible
From: td06@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (THOMAS EDWARD DEFLAVEES)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: George A. Dillman?
Date: 18 Nov 92 07:27:45 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Nov17.210510.20095@udel.edu>, weigand@banana.cns.udel.edu (Steve
 Weigand) writes:
>I've been reading a lot about a karate instructor named George Dillman
>in some of those cheezy karate/kf magazines. He has a series of video
>tapes about how to apply pressure points into fighting - a subject that
>continues to interest me.
>
>My question is: Has anyone seen this guy? Has anyone seen any of his
>video tapes?  Is he legitamate?
>
>You see, I believe he lives in my area (somewhat close to me), in
>Reading, Pennsylvania. I think his style is Okinawan Kempo, if I'm
>correct. I may pay him a visit, but I'd also like to hear if anyone
>has seen any of his stuff before going to him.
>
>Thanks,
> - Steve Weigand
>  (weigand@ee.udel.edu)
Well, I have seen him.  He's not really all that impressive as I see it.  His
tournament are less than top quality [being held in what appears to be an old
airplane hangar!]  And I certainly won't say that the judging was complete
unbiased.  Actually, the judging was more like a laughable attempt to make it
appear that everyone had spent 35 dollars wisely.  Anyway, they're at least a
nice little diversion every 6 months or so.  The next one is in May most
likely, and they are held in Hamburg, Pennsylvania.  About 8-10 miles north of
Reading.

  Tom DeFlavees   td06@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu
  Shodan - Shotokan Karate-do
From: bobd@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Bob D'Amore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Book of Tae Kwon Do Forms??
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:25:44 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ


When I first started reading this group a couple of months ago, I
posted a similar request, which went totally un-responded to.  I am
hoping that either I or my system screwed up the post somehow, and
that I did not break some newsgroup rule and offend the entire lot
of you! :-)

Are there any difinitive books available on Tae Kwon Do which focus
on it's many forms?  I have only one book, by Richard Chun, which
shows Pal Gwe (sp?) 1 - 8.  Our school also basis it's belt tests
on Temple 1 - 7 (or 8) and White Tiger 1 - 50.  Other forms I have
seen during my study here (all of 3 1/2 months) are Dragon's Claw,
Kam Sang (sp?), and Teung Sung (sp?).  The last one supposedly being
one of the original forms of early Tae Kwon Do.  We also have learned
3 or 4 variations on something called the 8-Point Star.

My jobs and family life do not allow me to 'live' at the school and
I can 'only' get to 3, maybe 4 classes a week.  Many times the forms
are practiced as part of one or two classes, but the rest is up to
you!  Maybe it's me, but I can't always remember bits and pieces as
I attempt to practice at home and a book which concentrates on the
forms and not-so-much on the block/kick/punch/stance stuff would be
great.  I would appreciate info on any books that would fit in to
this category.  Post or e-mail, either way is fine with me.

advTHANKSance!  --Bob D'Amore

-- 

US MAIL: Bob D'Amore                            Concurrent Computer Corp.
FAX: 908-870-5952   2 Crescent Pl.  Oceanport NJ 07757   Ph: 908-870-4654 
UUCP:     princeton!ocpt!catfish!bobd    or    bobd@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com
From: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: AIKIDO AND JUIJUTSU
Date: 22 Nov 92 11:20:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 

Not dealing with pre-Japanese history, but I thought both aikido and
juijitsu came from aki-jutsu.  Where akijutsu came from or what arts of
other countries contributed to it's form is something I cannot comment
on.
From: aaron@cse.ucsc.edu (Aaron Emigh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Time required to attain Black Belt
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:15:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ucsc.edu

In article <MARY.92Nov19144812@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
[...]
>Lately I am feeling this
>so much in my training...a feeling that my core techniques are not
>as solid as they could be, as solid as I'd like them to be.  In many
>ways I wish that I were a white belt again, so that I could rebuild
>my basics.

That's (to me) an advantage of studying a few different styles: I get to
learn new perspectives on what it's all about, which can change even
some of the "basics" in what I already practise.  (And besides, I get to
be a white belt again, and annoy students who can't figure out why their
techniques aren't working quite as well as they hoped...)

>...there is nothing stopping me from 
>rebuilding my basics (aside from an instructor who expects me to 
>also get on with learning new things...I figure I have about two
>months' grace before he tells me I have to test again).  

Exactly.  And aren't you really always rebuilding (or at least
reinforcing) your basics?  I know that in what I've studied, anyway, the
basics are basic enough that you don't stop working on them just because
you're doing some new material, too.  If my basics hadn't improved after
I got promoted past white belt, I don't think the rest of what I do
would be worth much... :-) (Whether or not it is, in fact, worth much is
a whole different topic.)  And certainly, as sometimes becomes painfully
obvious to me, there's _plenty_ of room for improvement left --
improvement that I hope I'm making as I practice.

Here's a question: is there _anyone_ out there who's been doing this for
a while who thinks their basics are "good enough?"  If you really think
that your stance is as strong and connected as it should be, your
transitions are fast enough and smooth enough, your positioning and
timing are good enough, and you aren't really working to improve any of
it -- I'd like to hear about it.  I suspect there are no such people.  :-)

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
> mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Aaron Emigh
aaron@iit.com
aaron@cse.ucsc.edu
From: boucher@csl.sri.com (Peter K. Boucher)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Date: 18 Nov 1992 19:07:11 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: affirmed.csl.sri.com

In article <1992Nov17.183124.7257@craycos.com>, sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
|> In article <1eb1rdINN38l@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
|> >In article <Bxu4FE.637@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, shulick@yankton.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
|> >>
|> >>hurting yourself?  I've experimented/practiced a little bit (ow!), and
|> >>found that the part of the skull about three inches above the eyebrows
|> >>is a TOUGH spot in the skull.  It's ABOUT where the hairline recedes.  I
|> >>hit a wall w/ my head and it didn't hurt.. too much. :)  Call me
|> >>insane.. :)  I just would like to know how to do it correctly, as a
|> >>headbutt in a close, locked battle is a GOOD move.  Thanks.
|> >
|> >
|> >well, keep doing it for a while. experiment with different angles, striking
|> >areas, etc. let us know how things turn out.
|> 
|> Shouldn't that read:
|> 
|> 	"Have your next-of-kin let us know how things turn out~
|> 
|> ;-)
|> 
|> Steve

What these guys are not saying very clearly is that there is no safe
way to actually practice head-butts against solid objects.  Blows to
the head cause a trauma to your brain.  There is no way to build up a
resistance to this.  The damage does accumulate over time.

A head-butt can be a devastating attack.  Learn and practice head-butt
techniques, but don't practice by whacking your head on anything solid.

-- 
Peter K. Boucher
--
RIPEM public key available upon request.
From: ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: query on kundalini, kung fu, etc.
Date: 19 Nov 1992 02:32:20 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


>    HI!
>    A friend of mine who does Crane Kung Fu says that Snake Kung Fu
>cultivates Kundalini very well.  Does anybody corroborate this? If so,
>how can I learn it?
 
     I don't have any experience in Snake Kung Fu, but I find it 
rather doubtful that a chinese martial art would have anything to 
do with kundalini..
 
>    I know that Tai-Chi is supposed to get your chi all nice and balanced,
>but are there other martial arts that work with kundalini?  Some would
>argue that kundalini is not equal to chi, or perhaps is a specific kind of
>chi-- opinions?
 
     Kundalini and chi are pretty much different..  They're a 
different kind of energy, a different kind of motion, and act 
differently within you.  There is an analog to chi in yoga, but 
even this is considered distinct from kundalini.
 
>    What is the best martial art for developing extreme ki control?
>Not that I have a lot of bricks that need breaking, but it would be
>of tremendous value to neuroscience to have this skill, IMHO.
>Do all of you do hatha yoga?  Do you do raja yoga?
 
     There is a japanese martial art called Kiaido which is 
supposed to make use of the kiai alone to knock the opponent 
unconscious.  Most yogi understand that when they practice the 
motion of kundalini they're potentially messing with the nature of 
reality (which includes all that nifty pk stuff that you see in 
japanime flicks ;-), but by the time they progress to the point 
that they could concievably "do nifty stuff", they don't want to 
(or rather, their idea of what "nifty stuff" is has changed 
sufficiently that you won't see them practicing pk).  An important 
exception to this rule is the practitioners of left-handed tantra, 
most notably the Brotherhood of the Left Hand.  Not nice people.
 
     I practice tantric yoga to give my chosen martial art 
(Shotokan Karate) an internal aspect.  I haven't messed with my 
kundalini, and probably won't for some time (probably forever).
 
/---\ /---\ /=   /   ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
  =     =    = /    "Home is a place that keeps the rain off my computer"
  =     =    = \     B0 f- t+ w- g k s- m+ r- p-(++)     ______
  =     =    =   \                      silence = death   \bi/
                                                           \/
From: princecr@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Date: 17 Nov 92 10:32:16 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

> 
> Hello, all.
> I've always wondered, how do you pull off a successful headbutt without
> hurting yourself?  I've experimented/practiced a little bit (ow!), and
> found that the part of the skull about three inches above the eyebrows
> is a TOUGH spot in the skull.  It's ABOUT where the hairline recedes.  I
> hit a wall w/ my head and it didn't hurt.. too much. :)  Call me
> insane.. :)  I just would like to know how to do it correctly, as a
> headbutt in a close, locked battle is a GOOD move.  Thanks.
> 
	You've got the right idea the two spots above the eyebrows could be
thought of as horns.  Keep yourself low. aim for the face and tuck in your
nose so it doesn't get mashed if you slip up.  Goju-ryu kata such as Shishochin
are good to help develop the technique.

chris

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:11:25 -0500 
From: Stephen Chan <sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Question: fumikomi (foot-stamping)

    As my old Karate/Kenjutsu sensei taught it, if you are moving forward to
attack, what happens is you accelerate your body forward, and then,
just before you strike, you plant your lead foot into the ground -
this halts the motion of your body and torso, but your sword {or fist}
keeps moving.
    The analogy my old instructor made was that you were accelerating
your car and then slamming on the brakes - anything which wasn't
fastened down got launched forward.
    But its kind of misleading to say that you are relying on gravity -
gravity will provide downward acceleration, but your leg driving
against the floor is what provides much of the lateral motion which
you want to impart into your luckless target [ you aren't trying to
hurt the floor, you're trying hurt your opponent :-} ]
    Gravity sounds real impressive at 9.8 m/s^2, but the muscles of
your legs are mmore powerful - otherwise you wouldn't be able to
accelerate against gravity and jump around. And whatever power you put
into the initial "launch", you get back on the downward part of the
trajectory.
    Essentially, you want to throw your body, and just drop it.

    I hope that helps.

	Stephen Y. Chan
	stevec+@cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@volkl.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: Navy SEALs and Jeet Kune Do
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:38:43 GMT

>>>>> On 18 Nov 92 07:33:08 GMT, urbina@novax.llnl.gov said:

Guy> I was reading in an old issue of IKF that Paul Vunak is
Guy> exclusively training Navy SEALs in his system of Jeet Kune Do. I
Guy> was wondering if anybody else on this newsgroup knows what other
Guy> Specforces groups train in other martial arts styles. When I was
Guy> in the Navy I tried to start a martial arts conversation with a
Guy> SEAL but he said his training is classified. That was about 4
Guy> years ago I don't know what new training is going on now.

If you get a chance look for "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" by (I
think) Richard Strozz Heckler.  It is the story (true!) of when he and
another aikidoka were hired to teach aikido to some special forces
guys.  He is a fairly spiritual aikidoka, so he tried to get them to
open up emotionally and spiritually with limited success.

There are funny stories.  After teaching a jo kata he saw one person
take a jo out into the woods and he thought "Ah, he wants to practice
some in a more peaceful setting.  He wants to commune with his jo!  He
is making good progress."

Then he spied on the guy and discovered that he was using it to hunt a
squirrel!

He wasn't rehired the next year, so they are probably not still
teaching Aikido to the special forces.
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Navy SEALs and Jeet Kune Do
Summary: A speck of info and some editorial comment
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:25:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


I missed some of this string, but I'll share what little I know
in this area.

Elite mil tend to be (relatively, for the U.S. military) very open-minded groups
regarding what might be useful in accomplishing their goals.  You
would see some Green Berets and SEALs praying to a giant teddy bear 
in a grass skirt and garters if they thought it would help them 
do their job and survive.  We're talking about some very motivated
people, as have to be a bit of a fanatic to even consider
going through SEAL training.   Some of the deepest fears
are met.  Hand to hand fighting is almost a breeze compared to some
of the trials of UDT and SEAL training, for example.  People who have to sneak 
around underwater to place explosives have to overcome all those nifty hangups 
the rest of us take for granted, like loud noises at close range, fear of
dark, enclosed spaces, fear of suffocation, all wrapped into one
inescapable underwater experience.  Getting knifed is pretty tame 
psychologically compared to that, imo.

Much of what is commonly taught in BUD/S, UDT, SEAL
that is formallized appears to me to be derived from some of the 
Korean traditions, owing to Mike Echanis' connections, and those of a few 
others.  Popular examples are Bong Soo Han, of Hollywood Hapkido fame,
who claimed to have worked with Army Special Forces, Paul Vunak of
course, and Mike Echanis, student of the Lee brothers, who coined
the older generic term 'Hwarang-Do' for their particular art.  

Sorry to dissapoint the young kids, but most of the classified elements of 
training relate to operational factors and mission goals, not to magic secret 
ways to kill someone with two spent cartridges and a piece of piano wire
or some such.  Such things are pretty much common knowledge among the creatively
sociopathic in all walks of life.  Elite military just make a more
potentially valuable service out of that knowledge.  

							kind regards,
								todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                             |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate (belt system)
Keywords: filthy, scummy, maggot-infested belts
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Distribution: rec
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:24:02 GMT

In article <24227@alice.att.com> garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson) writes:
> In article <1992Nov15.190126.206@pages.com> kevin@pages (Kevin Sven Berg)  
writes:
>    In article <1992Nov14.045400.26626@gagme.chi.il.us>  
phantom@gagme.chi.il.us  
>    (Leif Ericksen) writes:
>    [...snip snip ...]
>    > 	True, the original belt systems was teh dirtier it was the
>    > more experience you supposedly had.  THUS the tradition that YOU NEVER
>    > EVER was your belt.
> 
>    'never wash you belt?
> 
>    This sounds like folklore, and I find it hard to believe arising from a
>    society that places great value in bathing and cleanliness.
> 
> This is, indeed, karate tradition.  One *never* washes the obi.
> I have found this to be universal among people from various 
> japanese/okinawan styles I have known.
> 

Ok, Ok! I repent :-) See what happens when you come from a Chinese MA
tradition where belts/sashes are used to hold up your pants!

Say, perhaps we can modernize this a bit: folks from punchy-styles
should never wash their hands, or people from kicky-styles should
never wash their feet, those head-butty types should never wash
their face, Judoka should, well, just never wash ... ;-)

Or, is that how one distinguishes rank in Greenoch?

Whoops, here one comes now. Gotta go...

Kevin

-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Counters
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 04:03:04 GMT

In article das@unislc.uucp (David Shorten) writes:
>My question does anyone in net-land actually know of anyone who 
>(especially a formerly meek person) who got a sense of invulnerability 
>(or even an unrealistic overconfidence in their skills) from a 
>limited amount of training (meaning less than a year at any sort 
>of m-a or self-defense course)?

Yes, I have seen individual cases of this affliction in every
group I've trained with.  I've even seen it in the mirror on
occasion.  Even [gasp] here in rec.m-a from time to time.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Combat effectiveness?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:18:24 GMT

In article <722248782snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>Now, I want to know what you lot consider the single most effective
>fighting art.  Look at it from all angles -

In a real situation, I don't see a great need for "outfighting" (e.g.
techniques where the opponent is more than a meter away). I think
a given "real" confrontation would either involve very close infighting,
or a gun would be more effective. 

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: urbin@interlan.interlan.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Organization: Racal-Datacom
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:10:46 GMT

In article <37740020@otter.hpl.hp.com> ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans) writes:
>I too was surprised at the way martial arts are taught in the USA.  
  A lot of stuff that goes in the USA suprises me too. :->
[SNIP]

>How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
   There are no standards.  When I've been charged money, it's been from $4
a month to $60 a month.  I've also found people who require no payment other
than a good attitude (and sweeping the mats).  
   It's a big country and you find all types.


Mark Urbin  Racal-Datacom  Boxborough, MA   urbin@interlan.interlan.com   
These opinions are mine.  No one else will admit to them.	          
"It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.  It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!"
                        --From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Combat effectiveness?
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:59:26 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <722248782snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>Judo I dismissed right away

	Pfffttttt.

>Now, I want to know what you lot consider the single most effective
>fighting art.  

	Track.