HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Guns 'n' Armour (was: Re
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1992 21:18:08

Nicholas wrote:

>Oh, dear.  I thought I had cited an example of someone accidentally
>discharging a bow at a powerline... at an SCA event, no less.  Let's      
>see, to accidentally discharge a pistol (with the safety off), one needs  
>to pick it up and pull the trigger.  To accidentally discharge a cross-   
>bow, one needs to pick it up and pull the trigger.  Doesn't seem that     
>much harder to me.  Do all crossbows even have safeties?                  

Nicholas cited an example of a drunk who intentionally shot at a
powerline while thinking it was a tree limb.

A crossbow is *obviously* loaded and ready to fire, where as it is
far less obvious with most guns.  I've rarely seen crossbows left
in a ready-to-fire position when they were not in use, but this is
easier to do with guns.

BTW, I don't know why I'm writing this, as Nicholas has sent a
CANCEL request to the Rialto...

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org   <-- Working Again?
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: zip codification of the SCA
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 20:36:44

Umm, Arval....
  You said...
 JM> zip-code lines.  A city boundary is an obvious alternative.  If your
   With the exception of very small "island" cities, zip codes usually 
 change at the city boundary also.  I'd have to look at a map, but 
 they may also change at "island" boundaries also.  About the only 
 exception I can think of are very, very small rural towns or villages.
       Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Organization: Youngstown State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:10:48 GMT

Greetings to the assembled, from Vajk!
 
Alexander of Kiev's statements about most people's views of Wiccans parallel
my own.  I've even known a few Catholic priests who have attended seminars and
workshops which included one or more pagan, including Wiccan, speakers/teachers
 
My experience indicates that Wiccans are not difficult for people in general to
live with, and maybe even admire.  Of course, there are always the jerks.
 
Personally, I see no reason why Wiccan symbols could not be used in the SCA in
the same way as Christian symbols.  My experience is that the general public is
simply not offended by Wicca any more.
 
Vajk
From: Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Underage drinking
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:22:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712101755.F00001

In a message to All <07-24-92 02:30> GILBERT RICHARD wrote:

GR>  From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
GR>
GR>  Tibor writes:
GR>  > Think bigger.  If the local police decide that enough nuisances are
GR>  > being generated by any event, they are within their legitimate
GR>  > authority to shut that event down, mundane or not.  Peace Officers
GR>  > abating a Public Nuisance, and all that.
GR>
GR>  Yes. Actually, that's a valid point... Have there been many busts
GR>  made at Pennsic? If so, how many?
GR>
GR>  > Yes, perhaps, in a legal fight later, we can decide they overstepped
GR>  > their authority.  And, perhaps, if each and every one of the "adults"
GR>  > around a campsite is charged when an underage person drinks, we can
GR>  > all beat the rap.  But I very much want to avoid getting "charged"
GR>  > with such a crime, and want to avoid the fiscal and emotional costs
GR>  > of being charged, and beating the rap in a jurisdiction a thousand
GR>  > miles from home.
GR>
GR>  I think that's a good point. And what's more, I can agree with that...
GR>  on an individual basis. What I was more interested in was talking about
GR>  what the Pennsic hierarchies should do about this. Because unless
GR>  there's a serious risk of what your point in the first paragraph of
GR>  happening, it's more of a hazard to the people actually breaking the
GR>  law than to Pennsic as a whole...

The problem is that "the people actually breaking the law" depends on the 
jurisdiction. For instance, here in Oregon, if I have a party and alcohol is 
available, *I* am responsible not only for any underage drinking, but if 
*anyone* becomes "intoxicated".

I'm not sure that this would extend to the sponsor of an event, but I *know* 
it extends to the owner of a bar! So it is *possible* that the "person 
breaking the law" could be:
1. person supplying the drink to the minor
2. the person responsibile for the minor
3. the person whose alcohol was being supplied
4. the person whose campsite it was being supplied in
5. the owner of the property it was being supplied on
6. the group sponsoring the event

(or any combination of the above)

To get an answer you need a lawyer familiar with the applicable laws of the 
state, county, and city (or other jurisdiction) involved. Most state's have 
some sort of Liquor Commission and most of those have pamphlets available 
describing the state laws on the subject. That would at least be a start.

I *strongly* suggest that anyone holding an event at which it is even 
*possible* that alcohol will be present should contact the appropriate 
authorities and get a *written* list of the applicable rules and 
regulations. And that such should be communicated to those attending if 
there is anything unusual.

In any case, the autocrat and the people responsible for making sure the 
event runs smoothly should have copies with them and be perpared to tell 
people to follow the rules or leave. 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Underage drinking (was Re: Another Pennsic tip)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:54:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.135900.21744@nstn.ns.ca> GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD) writes:
>Hal Ravn posts:
>
>> In article <Brsz8x.162@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>> Teens drinking is *illegal*.  The SCA is bound by mundane law (it's
>> one fo the first things in Corpora).  Letting teens drink can get us
>> in *serious*trouble* with the mundane authorities.
>
>I don't know very much about US law but under Canadian law the only person
>responsible is the person who actually gives the underage person alcohol
>(for which there is a rather heavy fine), plus the underage person, of
>course. I don't think there is a law against having underage people
>drinking on your property, so long as you're not the supplier... This would
>make it terribly hard to sue the Society itself, and probably fairly easy
>to sue a number of its participants...

I regret to say that various state laws in the US are not nearly so
enlightened.  We could get entire events shut down, those 'in charge'
jailed, lose access to sites and generally find ourselves in a
position of enriching the Guild of Lawyers greatly over this issue.

I'm happy to hear that the consequences are more rational in Canada.

>> (This is a 'crusade' only insofar as I think that such activities are
>> not only illegal, but a threat to the continued wellbeing of the SCA.)
>
>Well... Speaking from personal experience, I've found the idea of
>responsible drinking to be something that's found on both sides of the age
>line. I've met 30 and 40-year-olds who get boozed up and become real pains
>in the neck, along side with 16-year-olds who seem to handle it no
>problem...

I quite agree with you, but the law around here seems to have a
stronger opinion about the subject than I do.  I would *personally*
prefer that those who choose to drink do so responsibly, and I can
think of few places that are likely to be safer to do so than when
camping with the SCA--and knowing that teens *will* try to drink, when
opportunity presents--but that won't save us from getting the SCA in
some rather nasty legal messes if we were to let be known that we
tolerate known, illegal behavior at events.  For this, I must set
aside any personal preferences and insist (should I encounter such
situations) that the letter of the *must* be followed.  Any other
course of action can have severe consequences.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:16:11 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Bertram of Bearington (Dave Schroeder) writes:

>Still, there's no need to debate the posting on that basis,
>considering that it more clearly breaks the second definition
>of 'courtesy' since it is disrespectful and inconsiderate of
>the person who posted the original song. 

To be more precise, it was disrespectful and inconsiderate 
of the person's song.  As a graduate student, you should
realize that to attack an individual's ideas or works is not
to attack the individual personally.  (Unfortunately, many
academics, although aware of this distinction, fail to recognize
it when it comes to their ideas, which is one of the reasons why
academics have a bad reputation in some circles.)  

I don't agree that courtesy means showing respect and
consideration for actions that one does not feel respect
for.  Separating "modern courtesy" from "period courtesy" 
the way you have attempted does not make sense because modern 
courtesy -- even the modern word -- evolved from period practice.
"Courtesy" means "court behavior."  Picture Queen Elizabeth I
upbraiding a courtier who had misbehaved.  Her words would not be
"respectful and considerate" by your standards, but they would be
courteous.  Furthermore, courtesy -- court behavior -- required
fools like Stephen to speak bluntly.  To do otherwise would have
been neither courteous nor foolish.  

The behavior you are asking for, in which people avoid 
expressing their true thoughts in favor of ruthless
"sensitivity" is not courtesy, it is "political correctness."


>The relative merits of his song could have been discussed
>on or off line -- and suggestions for improvement, if one
>had them to give -- could be offered.  

The individual in question did not as for constructive
criticism, and I do not see any reason to believe he was
even interested in it.  His message began with a disclaimer
that was something like, "Authenticity Police, hit "n" now."
In other words, "Na, na, na, na, na, na!"

>  Oh -- why the quotes around "missives" Nicolas?
>  Please let me know.  Am I misusing a term?  My dictionary
>  says it's "a letter intended to be sent : a written communication."
>  I'd like to learn a more appropriate word if you would suggest one.

It was the first definition ("a letter...") that caused me to use 
the quotes.  Calling a one-line message a letter struck me as humorous,
rather like calling a short book a "tome."

-- Nicholas van Leyden
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:28:56 GMT

Aryk asked why SCA fencing is done "to the death", when in period the
upper classes did fencing as a sport?

Aryk, I am not the worlds most experienced fencer, but I have been
in tournaments that did one or the other.  One touch, two touches,
death, Touches win but death loses, etcetera.

As with so many things in the SCA, it's unsafe to generalize.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 25 Jul 92 04:53:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712101755.F00006

BA>  From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
BA>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
BA>  Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
BA>
BA>  > Well, mine opinion is that it hath no place on the Rialto.  The
BA>  Rialto
BA>  > USED
BA>  > to be one of the most flame-free environments on the Net.

BA>  I recently recieved an email response to a posting here, where the
BA>  writer
BA>  made "suggestions" on my ability to talk about the matter.  Although
BA>  it
BA>  seems they tried to make it appear non-offensive I was still
BA>  insulted.  (I
BA>  by and large decided not to take serious offense and disregared the
BA>  content of the email).

Ah yes...."disregard"...

Discourtesy is rather like quicksand. The *harder* you struggle, the deeper 
you become entangled.

Struggle less.

Swim easily away from it.

Ignore...

Use killfiles if you have them, this context.

Consider of two knights in a manure patch. The more they fight, the dirtier 
they get. Honor is not served. Retreat from the filth and regroup on higher 
ground, it does you both honor in the end, no matter who wins the battle.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson)
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Reply-To: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:00:53 GMT


This is in response to  Hadrian MKA william D. Jones's article.

For those poeple who feel the same way as this fellow, Please open your eyes, not
your mouth. This is not the Society for Cults of America. Let us, as a non-religious 
group, present ourselves to the rest of Society as a group of intelligent rational 
people who happen to enjoy the artificial medieval-like society that we have created.
There is a reason, beyond bowing down to the religious zealots that threaten our group,
for us to maintain a conservative outward appearance.

For one I would venture that except for a creative/romantic vein, most of us in the SCA
are mainstream, or would like to be viewed as such. As a result that which brings the 
SCA to bad light also affects us- as people in our mundane life. This means our Careers,
our religious life and our social life outside the SCA.  My parent as members of a
Southern Baptist Church (in all that implies) have more than a few problems explaining
my wargamming as an adolecent, and now my participation in the SCA. Both groups of which 
have had a bad light brought on them due to the actions of a few. 

On another note, When I first joined the SCA in Hattiesburg, Mississippi the group was 
dying (only the senechal and one other person was active, the senechal writing all the reports for the inactive members). My joining sparked new life into the group as I 
brought my friends into this wonderful game and lent an air of legitamacy to the group.
So what was the problem? Well, a girl attending the university there, it seems, was heavily
into black majic or some such and was very into letting people know about it. Even to the
point of climbing up on the roof of the dorm at night to do her stuff. This girl it seems
also claimed she was in the SCA, which according to everyone who I knew who had been 
active there, was not true. The stygma attached to the SCA there was very heavy and took
many years to overcome. Face it, no one wanted to be associated with a group that had 
someone like this b--witch in it.

The Society as a whole faces this problem. If we want to go about our lives as normal
people, if we want to involve other good productive members in our society, if we would
like to keep enjoying the game as we are playing it, we need to appear to the world as a
legitamate organization for normal people, not a pagan cult who practices ritual slaughter
with wooden swords.

Sir Brian
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Speaking of filks...  (was Re: Basic Courtesy)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 00:07:07 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

In article <3186@creatures.cs.vt.edu>, jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
> 
>      (1)  Filks detract from the quality of our events.
>      (2)  Writing filks diverts creative energy from other efforts
>           that enrich our events.

I've been to one or two A&S competitions where there were but two
categories for musical performance:  `Period' and `Filk,' where
`Period' consisted of music actually written in period, and `Filk'
was everything else -- even if it was written by the performer in
an authentically period style (id est, not based on a modern tune).

Is this common usage?  (I was surprised, for I had never before
heard of period-style pieces being referred to as filks...)

I am curious as to what exactly a filk *is* -- I've heard many
different definitions of the term from many different people.

Is a filk only a filk if it is a modern (or, shall we say, OOP)
tune to which altered words have been substituted?  Any piece not
written in a period style?  Any piece not actually written *in*
period?

Would altered words to a period song be a filk?  Would it be viewed
as similarly reprehensible?  (Let us forget for a moment the twelve
billion and seventeen adaptations of `Greensleeves'...  As an example,
let's use `The Song of the Ass' -- would putting different words to
*that* song be considered as loathsome as doing the same to, say,
`Old Time Rock & Roll'?)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:39:14 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <712383439.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
>Milady Esmeralda said:
> ABG> I think there are many levels of filk. I enjoy sometimes 

I agree with this, and I think there is a point here which I will make
below.

>    So, if I don't hear the modern referrent, I won't object.

I think this is where the entire problem arises, people have different
levels of musical education.

The average newcomer to the SCA might have no idea of the modal
structures used in Early Music (TM), and will be happy with anything.

Lots of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various
strains of folk music, and Eliz or one of the many forms of Mediaeval
music. In fact, lots of people seem to think that folk music IS real
Mediaeval music, an assumption I would contest.

Finally, much mediaeval music uses tonal structures which sound WRONG
to the modern ear. I have been involved in singing Choral and Solo
music for many years now in the SCA. The best compromise usually
is to sing Elizabethan Music. This has a familiarish sound, and is
fairly easy on the modern ear, consequently it can become popular.
Truly Mediaeval music on the other hand, is considered strange
and not listened too unless it is unavoidable.

>      Gwenllian CfM

Arenwald von Hagenburg.
(Onetime Bard of Lochac).
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Icelandic Relgions (was Re: Residence in local branches)
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:20:12 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah, and especially unto Brynjolfr.

>Well, in the case of Sweden I would find that highly suspect, as the
>references I've read indicate that Sweden didn't convert until the 12th
>century, by which point Iceland's laws were rather strict against the old
>religions. With Norway and Denmark, I can see it as being possible, as both
>of those were converted by the end of the 11th century...

A case of fingers too slow for thought.  The line should have read
"examination of _collections_ of the limited parish records extant...in
Norway and Sweden" -- I wasn't speaking of Swedish parish records, but
of records held in collections in Norway and Sweden, some of which have
been published; the documents originate primarily from Norway.

>Iceland *had* a legal system. And from the date of the conversion (either
>1000 or 999 depending on who you believe), making sacrifices in public was
>illegal... along with other pagan practices such as eating horseflesh...
>
>It had a rather sophisticated legal system, actually. A *large* section of
>the Saga of the Burning of Njal (Njall? my copy has a number of anglicized
>name spellings) is devoted to the suit Kari Solmundarson brings against the
>Burners... Simply because a nation has no police force or jail doesn't mean
>it doesn't have any law (altho it did had a simple punishment system - you
>could be fined, exiled [the 'lesser outlawry'] or outlawed for life)

By "legal system" I didn't mean "system of laws" -- I meant "system of
law enforcement," which was sufficiently primeval to count effectively
for naught.  

Best Wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.waterloo.edu (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Filk and acceptability.....
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:52:21 GMT

In article <712383439.F00003@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
>    I've always had this urge to get a group to perform the Kings
>'s Singers' version of "I wanna hold your hand".  Having heard this 
> Beatles song sung in madrigal style is truly mindboggling.
>     So, who would ask that I leave if I pulled this one off?
>            Gwenllian CfM
>
> * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

OK, I guess I'm going to finally chip in my two ducats' worth into this
discussion... not to pick on your post in particulary, m'lady, but I will
address it directly first.

While I would not "ask you to leave" for doing such a thing, I would ask you
(now, before the fact) to please keep such a thing to post-revels and the like,
where they can be wholeheartedly appreciated.

I have, myself, written some filks. According to almost all who have read them,
they are quite good filks. However, no matter how much praise I get for them,
I will not perform them at a bardic circle, and I cringe whenever I hear of
someone else doing so. There are many filks that I like, and I have never asked
anyone to NOT do filks, nor do I expect that I will do so in the near future.
If someone were to ask me my opinion, I would tell them, but in the meantime,
I'm most likely to just "let them be".

If I am suitably "inspired" (i.e. if an idea hits me square in the face), I
will write more filk. However, I have been able to get my hands on some period
and period-style music recently, and I will try to concentrate my efforts more
on writing contrefait, and possibly even writing original, period-style music.
(Although I've never been much of a composer...)

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter...

Rhys ap Bledri, of the College of Skeldergate and the Canton of Schutzeheim

Ask me about The First Revolt in Ealdormere (the division of Septentria), Labour
Day weekend!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca