HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: re. religious intolerance
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:04:51 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

> Condemning?  What's this about comdemning?  I didn't get the feeling
> that anyone was comdemning you.  You posted something of interest to us,
> and we responded.  This king of garbage has evidently been personally
> experienced by members of the net, and we have strong feelings about it.
> You can't expect to post something about Pagan-based discrimination and
> have us all post up cheerfully explaining exactly how to combat this.
> We don't KNOW how to combat it; no one does.  We have, however,
> experienced it -- some of us painfully so.  When the subject comes up,
> we are going to HAVE to take time out to bitch about what injustice has
> been visited on us and commiserate.  THEN we can move on as to how to
> stop it.  You can't just post a sample and get the problem solved; make
> allowances for people to vent their emotions, especially since some of
> us have been attacked very vividly.
> 
> Regards,
> Janis C.
>  
> 

        My sicerest apologies for the line about condemning it was 
somthing I heard somwhere(I forget where) and It was supposed to be a 
seperate thing unrelated to the post.....oops. I must also apologise for 
coming off sounding like I was flaming at people for bitching at the time 
I had just gotten off the phone with a friend who had done nothing but 
bitch about thier problems at work and school and having had an earful 
plus of this type of thing I just didn't want to hear any more and typed 
from my own fustation........sorry.

    one more thing,
                no offense taken,
                                Blessed Be,
                                        Liam
                                         (the greatly embarrassed)

------------------
liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
(Alternate) liam%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: More Survey Garbage
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 23:13:53 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

alizard@drc.UUCP (alizard) writes:

> So we have a couple of Xtians making threats and harassing people via
> alt.pagan ... 
> 70006.101@CompuServe.COM
> Attention: Jim Chaffranek
>  
> If you want to complain about the Colvins, that's one place to do it.
> 
> Also, the Compuserve voice phone is available from 800 telephone 
> information, go through their voice mail until you get to their
> technical service representatives. 
> 
> Also, complain to root at any account other than Compuserve that
> the Colvins post from. 
> 
> The Colvins state that their only posts were on alt.satan. Personally,
> I don't believe them. 

you have only to look at the headers to see it 'taint so!
BTW, This guy is bugging me now ON CIS... seems he noticed an ad I put on
CIS for my board, and connected the two names. Oh, well. I may have to 
ask CIS to change my account number.... :(


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Gardenarian and Alexandrian Wicca
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:37:25 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

cerconeg@woods.ulowell.edu writes:

>I wonder if someone could help me find a couple of books.

>I am looking to find the differences between Gardenarian and Alexandrian
>Wicca.  A friend of mine told me that I would have to get a book on each and do
>the comparisons myself.  I was just wondering if anyone knew of such a book?

The main differences are that Gardnerians go skyclad, while Alexandrians are
sometimes skyclad and sometimes robed, and that Alexandrians are much more 
likely to include Kabbala in their training.  Other than that, they are really
two faces of the same version of Wicca.  Alex Sander's Book of Shadows was
a slightly inaccurate copy of the Gardnerian one.  For more information on
the relationship between Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca, see _A Witches
Bible Compleat_ (U.K. titles: _Eight Sabbats for Witches_ and _The Witches
Way_) by Janet and Stewart Farrar and _Rebirth of Witchcraft_ by Doreen
Valiente, the woman who wrote about half of the Gardnerian/Alexandrian Book of
Shadows.

I actually don't know of any books on just one of the two--they have gotten 
merged to the point that most books on them are from the perspective of both.
(A good first book on that style of Wicca is _Wicca: The Old Religion in the
New Age_ by Vivianne Crowley.  I hate the title, but the book is good.  She
is a Jungian psychologist and a Wiccan High Priestess, who has been initiated
both in a Gardnerian coven and an Alexandrian coven.  She does a very nice job
of analysing the rituals in Jungian terms, including a great chapter connecting
the Elements to the four functions of the psyche of Jungian theory.)

I am surprised that anyone would suggest those two branches of Wicca for
comparitive work.  They really are very similar.  It is similar to trying to
do comparitive work in Christianity by comparing the high church Anglicans to
the low church Anglicans.  For a real comparison, I would suggest something
like Starhawk's _The Spiral Dance_ or even _Casting the Circle_ by Diane Stein.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 05:39:26 GMT

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've 
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory.  Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?

The fact that the Masons have an "Order of deMolay" would seem to imply that
they at least like to pretend that they have some connection to the Templars.

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:46:30 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764


	I think it refers to the goat-head in a pentagram with two points up
symbol.  I seem to recall something in the Satanic Bible to that effect.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8457 soc.motss:37316 rec.games.frp:24988 alt.religion.emacs:373 talk.religion.misc:15115 talk.religion.newage:4123 sci.physics:13728
From: dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dartanyan the Witchling)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,soc.motss,rec.games.frp,alt.religion.emacs,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:16:38 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Aug27.233922.18375@peponi.wcc.govt.nz> hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>What? You mean I'm already in the afterlife? Why did no-one tell me??? :-)
>
>So what happens to New Zealanders who die? Do we go to Fiji? :-)
>
	Just curious: When people in Fiji answer the phone do they really
say "bokomonopistie" like in that AT&T commercial?

	Just curious.


			D
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:56 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <1992Aug28.173628.16809@csus.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
> 
    [stuff about Templars deleted]


Anyone remember a weird sci-fi book called "Baphomet's Meteor"?
It was written about 15-20 years ago by some French guy and 
in it, "Baphomet" is a stranded extraterrestrial who cuts a deal
with the Templars (it happens to be a Templar who finds his ship).
"Baphomet's" intentions turned out to be less than benign and
he was finally defeated by some Templars who sought mystical help
from Tibetan lamas (!). 

Would have made a good B-movie.

Richard 
(Tuneweaver)
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as ever
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 00:05:10 EDT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam) writes:

> thier rise to power.  To sit idly by and let it happen or to flee to
> another country to watch the show is to spit in the faces of those who
> survived this tragedy and onthe graves of those who have died for thier
> beliefs, no matter where or when.

oh, so i'm to stay and wait for them to take my child away because i'm an icky
icky lesbian who can't be trusted to raise her right.  sorry.  i'm not buying
tickets out of the country right this minute, and i am certainly hoping that it
doesn't get this bad, but when it comes to a choice between a political
movement and my child, well, i guess i must not be very committed, because if
that is the choise, i really don't give a rat's ass about causes.  i'm a firm
believer in "out of the closet and into the street," but when they line the
street with m-16s, it's time to get out of the street and into the fucking
bunker!

                                           -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     wang!ailanth!ails@ulowell.ulowell.edu         ________
      No visible means of support          Silence \      / Action
      and you have not seen nothing yet.      =     \    /    =
      Everything's come together.           Death    \  /    Life
                                                      \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Religious Bulletin Board lists...
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:10:17 GMT

In article <0VF0PB2w164w@drc.uucp> alizard@drc.uucp (A.Lizard) writes:
>Grendel, you really should have posted the name of the magazine.
>A lot of us are in technical / computer related professions, the
>pagan community has a pretty fair amount of buying power as far
>as computers goes. Some of us are in a position to choose what
>periodicals to advertise our businesses in. 

 Whoops!! It is Boardwatch magazine. Until now, it has been the only
decent magazine for computer bulletin boards. I am unsure now. It is still
a good mag, I just think the editor may be either a bit biased or a real
grouchy asshole.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+
From: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman)
Subject: Re: Abandoning the Sinking Ship
Reply-To: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:04:31 GMT

In article <Btxpzq.1sw@csn.org>, rks@teal.csn.org (Reykja K. Sigurdsson) writes:
>
>progress. However, even Adam Smith wrote that it would not work without
>some sort of compassion and a solid value system. (And I certainly 
>don't think he meant the value system of fascists like Pat Robertson 
>and George Bush!) It is a statement against a value system which has
>become Darwinistic at best. Barbarian at worse. 

an old age pension and they are known for helping
>their neighbors. They also run their national budget with the primary
>concern being Icelanders. They do not allow others in unless they have
>the jobs available. They don't accept hoardes of people for the purpose
>of gaining power over thse people. (Note the whole Boat People flapdoodle
>C
>of several years ago. They just said 'no' because they didn't have 
>enough jobs for new citizens. They were not willing to take jobs from
>Icelandic nationals.) That is sensible. That is the way anyone would 
>run their home budgets. If you can't afford something, you don't get/do/
>have it. There is no homelessness in Iceland. The government wouldn't 
>permit such a thing. It wouldn't be permitted because the *group 
>value* would not permit it. 
>
>    Those who do well here and like it here should stay. I am not 
>saying everyone should leave. Those who choose to leave should be 
>permitted to leave -- without reprisal or flames. That is what 
>tolerance is all about -- making choices. 
>
>    Tirade entirely complete. ;-) 
>
>-reykjavik
>
>rks@teal.csn.org                                                    
>
>                            The seeking of wisdom is the highest virtue-
>
>                                                         --Odin--
>
>
>
>A
>C
>of several years ago. They just said 'no
>
>A
>
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: That Elvis thing
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:44:00 GMT

In article <krikket.6777@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes...
>In article <1992Aug27.064530.13591@colorado.edu>, bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU
>(Bear Giles) writes:
> 
>>Does this mean pagans can breath freely?  Not really.  It's pretty
>>clear that the Republicans are on the ropes, but the conservative
>>branch is already planning it's comeback in '94.  Sorry, '96.  
>>
>>The next four years won't be as bad as they would have been under
>>Bush II (sounds like a B-grade horror movie), but they won't be a
>>cakewalk either.
> 
>Actually, I don't know if I should be more scared if Bush ot Clinton got into
>power...  Actually my fear isn't of Clinton himself, but of his runningmate Al
>Gore.  Keep in mind that this is the person who is married to Tipper Gore, and
>has backed her in politics up to now.  Tipper Gore anywhere near power scares
>me shitless.  She helped form the PMRC, which got many records self-banned (by
>the record companies, and helped get groups like the Dead Kennedies ARRESTED)
>because they don't support "traditional family values".
> 
>Either way we are going to be in for hell over the next few years...
> 

I felt the same way.  I remember feeling my heart sink into the
pit of my stomach when I heard that Clinton selected Al Gore as
his running mate.  It wasn't Gore himself, it was Tipper that made
my heart sink.  While Gore isn't that great, he at least has our
view of the envirnoment and is working like a dog trying to change
things for "Mother Earth".

While the thought of Tipper being so close to power, I had to sit
back and think. Bush = No; Perot = No; Clinton = Yes then
Quayle = No; Gore = No.  

So I plan to vote for Clinton and hope to hell that we can keep
a reign on Tipper.

Besides shes done more to promote sales of "self-banned" records
than the record companies could ever do by themselves.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:05:26 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
> : Mary K. Kuhner (mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu) wrote:
> : : Scott Mayo asks me to let the Net know that he has lost Internet access,
> : : and to apologize to those who were in the middle of discussions with 
him.
> : : He will be out of contact for the indefinite future.
[deleted...]
> : Hmmm...did he get fired, or what?  I was almost starting to enjoy his 
> : particular
> : brand of narrow-mindedness - *much* less so than some other pagan-bashers
> : I've
> : seen in the past...
> 
> Hm. Was he that much of a basher or did he just sincerely believe that 
people
> who hold pagan beliefs are wrong.
> 
> I found his postings no worse than those who bash particular groups of 
pagans
> or, for that matter, some who bash the mainstream religions.
> 
> Why do so many pagans feel that they have the "one true way"? You would 
think
> that they would have learned by now. I guess it is just too much to ask of
> people - no matter what their beliefs.
> 

  Again, "...did he just sincerely believe that people who hold
[P]agan beliefs are wrong" ...

  Well, I was having a rather nice conversation with Scott on
eMail, and although he did seem more interested in mailing me
megabytes of Christian tracts than talking about our personal
experience of our respective religions, I thought that the
conversation had potential.

  He certainly didn't seem malicious in his beliefs, and
never indicated that he felt that my faith was "wrong".  In
fact, he seemed to have a greater respect for individual
faith than some self-proclaimed "pagans" who have eMailed me.

  And, "Why do so many pagans feel that they have the 'one true
way'? ..."

  Bill, is that your response to the suggestion that Scott might
have been telling Pagans that he "sincerely believe[d]
that ... [P]agan beliefs are wrong." ?

  I hardly think that responding to an accusation that your
beliefs are WRONG indicates a "one true way" attitude.

  Janis complained about discrimination and got flamed for
advocating discrimination.

  I complained about being told that my religion's not
"real" and got flamed for religious bigotry.

  This network's SWIMMING with people who tried to point
out a wrong and got flamed for their efforts -- usually getting
accused of doing exactly what they're trying to defend
themselves from.

  Fighting for your civil rights is NOT reverse discrimination.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.

  p.s. Mary; if you have a way of getting ahold of Scott, please
tell him that I'm sorry our conversation got cut off.  I'm not
opposed to corresponding with him through snail-mail, if he
can get his snail-mail address to me.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: alizard@drc.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: fighting back (see also re: Religious Bulletin...)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 02:25:23 PDT
Organization: Sound Blaster Systems, Concord CA

It seems to me that the best way to persuade the fundies to look for
safer targets is to make sure that practicing their idiocy at our
expense is ___EXPENSIVE___ . The question is how.

Bright Blessings... A.Lizard
usr77@pil.UUCP                      alizard@seer.mystic.com
usr86@Wizclan.Kludge.COM(not ready yet)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as ever
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:07:00 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

> How nice for you.
> 
> I'm sure it's very reassuring to those who have advanced technical degrees,
> plenty of money, or other tickets to easy emigration, to realize that if
> things start getting too bad, they can simply bail out on the rest of us.
> Plenty of P/pagans and other soon-to-be-undesirables don't have that
> option, but that's their problem, isn't it?
> 
> If this country does become a fascist theocracy, it will be because those
> people who might have made a difference chose to follow their own narrow
> self-interest instead.
> 
> If, on the other hand, this country is ever going to become what Janis'
> grandparents came looking for, we'd better get working.  Hard.  And
> despite the fact that our precious egos may get bruised in the process,
> *together*. I suspect Janis' grandparents knew that; I know mine do --
> and unless a lot of us learn it over the months and years to come, we
> are going to perish.
> 
> End of flame.  Now get off your duffs and do something.   
> 
> --JMG
> 
        Thank you!!! You have succeded in saying the whole of my  meaning 
in all of my previous posts on this subject. We can run if we wish, but 
we can only run so far before it catches up with us. If this country 
falls into the state of facist intolerance what will stop it from 
forcing these policies on the rest of the world? This may sound like just 
another paranoid rant..... But it has happened in the past, not in this 
country, perhaps, yet it has happened.  This is very simular to the way 
the nazi party in Germany got started in the late thirties.  You might 
say that it could never happen again, but to do so is naive in the 
extremes.  If anything has been learned from the Haulocost, It is that 
these kind of facist dictatorships should be stopped in the beginning of 
thier rise to power.  To sit idly by and let it happen or to flee to 
another country to watch the show is to spit in the faces of those who 
survived this tragedy and onthe graves of those who have died for thier 
beliefs, no matter where or when.
                                thank you,
                                        Blessed Be,
                                                 Liam

------------------
liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
(Alternate) liam%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bigham@milton.u.washington.edu (Chuck Bigham)
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:40:46 GMT

lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:


[Other suggestions for reading list deleted]
>Starhawk
>Spiral Dance

When I first started reading alt.pagan, _Spiral Dance_ was the big winner
in the list of "must read" books. However, after I finished it, I came
away with a bad taste in my mouth about what paganism was all about. It
seemed to me that Starhawk was replacing The Big Guy With A Beard with
The Big Gal In White.

I realize Starhawk follows a Dianic Wiccan tradition that emphasizes the
Goddess. I'm male though, and found getting in touch with "the female
within" at the expense of "the male within" distastful. One of the
attractions of paganism for me is the emphasis on duality, on the male
and female aspects of diety, and it seemed to me Starhawk's emphasis on
the female were just as bad as Christianity's emphasis on the male.

I've found, however, that Starhawk's _Truth or Dare_ seems to be a
retelling of _Spiral Dance_, sort of a _Spiral Dance_ version 2. In
it, Starhawk shows a greater balance in diety, and a greater maturity
of vision of what paganism is for her. I'm not denigrating _Spiral
Dance_, I still consider it a useful book, and I'm glad I read it. But
when I'm presenting my beliefs to a novice, I think _Truth or Dare_
does a better job. 

Chuck