From: franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The Value of a Man (repost)
Date: 12 Apr 92 19:38:24 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

In <ka6tjmp@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>mjln_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Mikeey J. Lin) writes:
>>In <+44tn#a@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (Cathi Ann Cook) writes:

>I humbly hope it lived up to your expectations.
   Not mine...

>(A small digression here: some stupid tv commercial hyping a tv show
>said "<some character> faces a woman's greatest heartache...."  "I'm
>sorry, but you can't have children" and I'm sitting here thinking that
>I can think of a LOT of things worse than not being able to have kids.
>Just really irritated me....)
  Well - this is just a difference in opinion. Most women don't compare
a birth to the pain of a root canal. The physical pain is outweighed
by the emotional gain. Do I just hang out with wierd people? No, I think 
not. I think your mentality of ME ME ME ME ME is the exception.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ too many me's?

>Actually I read an article on child support about a month ago.  The
>figures they gave for NY state were that 90% of non-custodial parents
>had been late in support payments at some point, about 70% were 
>currently behind in support payments, and about 20% had never made
>a single court-mandated CS payment.
   I'd like to see these numbers please. You said they're from
memory? I'd like the published stats. If these numbers are true, then
the polical system is at fault for not enforcing the parent's
irresponsibility.

>Clearly, the current child-support system is not working.
   Yup. You've got that right...

>It's pretty close.  There are lots and lots of things that can go
>wrong in a pregnancy, and some of them could indeed result in the
>loss of organs.  I myself broke a tooth due to calcium loss.  And
>my pregnancy was considered at the extreme end of uncomplicated
>(excpet for a fairly long labor - 2 1/2 days).
   Except? 2.5 days is pretty long... In any case - the risk of 
organ donation CANNOT be analogou to the risk of pregnancy. 
Your words are bull that pregnancies are as dangerous as you imply.
They may be painful, but the risk of uncomplicated (no extraneous
factors involved in the pregnancy) childbirth is slim. 

>That's up to him.  All I'm requiring is the physical risk.
   Would that really make you feel better? It has to be utter
equality right down to childbirth? Do you feel that venemous towards
men that you would appreciate them taking this foolhardy risk to
meet your self-satisfying needs?

>That can be controlled for.  We merely mandate that the risk be equal.
   Controlled for huh? Here we go - the silly analogy begins 
to fall apart... Read earlier - you really would feel good if your
partener/husband went through EXACTLY everything you go through?

>Please, understand that many women lose (the use of) organs during
>pregnancy.  Kidney failure.  Gestational diabetes.  Stroke.  Ruptured
>uterus.  All because of the fetus.  Is it really so incredible to
>ask men to share some of the risk we face?
   Many women? NUmbers please - I'd like to see the stats on 
how many women end up with each of these instances. Should we be
acting on ou biological impulses? Should a man get a castration for
fear of hernias, prostate cancer, or worse? 

>Perhaps if we had so many donors available, these things would be more
>common.  My father-in-law lost an ear to cancer.  Don't you have a tooth
>or two you'd like to replace?  I do.
   Go synthetic - why transplant a real tooth when you could geta nice
shiny ceramic one?

>>Do you personally feel that this is what a woman have
>>to go through during a pregnancy? 
>Yes, I do.  I have a child, remember?
   Oooh, you must be an authority then... Well, I must have talked to
different women than you associate with... I'm not judging you by 
my experiences, but from a wealth of experiences of my peers, idols,
and friends.

>Perhaps some people will begin to realize that pregnancy entails more
>risk than having a big belly for a few months.
   Yes - but can it possibly be an argument justifyin ABORTION?

>>restriction on men is not going to help women, it's just to punish men.
   Good point Mikeey...

>"Punish"?  Gee, that sounds familiar.  We've been contending for
>years that many pro-"life"rs want to punish women.  Don't we deserve
>equal time?
   We dont' want to punish women. Just save the fetus. 

>>Didn't you say that the
>>purpose of men is to "start" and "support families" Would giving him the
>>okay to leave forfill his obligation to support his family? I dunno know?
>They've already got the money.
   And that's enough?

>>	I don't wish to "outlaw abortion" and I feel the majority of the
>>population don't want to outlaw abortion. (both Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers)
>>This doesn't mean I agree with you ideas here. I think your proposal does
>>not benefit women or men, it just serves ae a form of punishment for men.

>Many of us feel the same way about laws against abortion.

  Well, I don't directly want to "outlaw abortion" as well... I want
to eradicate the NEED for abortion with proper education and care. This
is not impossible. 

>Let me say that this is NOT a flame.  But might I point out that in
>the same sentence you say that a man cannot understand the pregnancy
>experience, and yet you describe it as "special" and a "gift".  Many
   I just quote my mother, sisters, friends, peers, strangers, etc...
Although when I am a father, it will be a HUGE gift for me (my child),
I owe it all to the strength and love of my wife. 

>men don't seem to understand that many women do NOT consider it special
>OR a gift.  These are normal, caring women who feel that pregnancy is an
   WRONG! _YOU_ dont' consider it a gift. Many DO

>feel.  An unwanted pregnancy is something that nearly every woman will
>_fear_ at some point or another.  There are a number of things in my
>life right now which would make another pregnancy disastrous for me.
>I don't know what I'd DO if I discovered that I were pregnant, but I
>can assure you most heartily that my first reaction would not be joy.
  I feel sorry for you. 


>>Do most men "lie" about having had a vasctomy? 

>It's been known to happen.
   Well - equally, have women been known to say "Don't worry, I'm on the
pill..." It goes both way - sexual responsibility is a TEAM EFFORT.
But then again, you all know my solution...

>Do you have statistics on this?  The failure rate of some contraception
>methods is pretty high.
   Not abstinence. It has an EXCEPTIONALLY low birth rate...

>>Would the Catholic Church allow the use of birth control? 
>Interesting question.
   No... I truly don't think so. there are other christian dialects 
that feel contraception is a must, but I believe this to be the 
"follow the leader" problem
   I've worn out all my arguments against contraception. Can't add
too much else - go read old articles if you missed them

steve
-- 
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