From: shava@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: jB
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:13:40 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

What is 'jB,' anyway?

In article <523300009@peg> dlawn@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>"My Brain is a chemical machine. 
>Therefore my thoughts are predictable, and I can have 
>no free will"

Go read J Gleik's (I hope I spelled this right) _Chaos_ for a reason
that this is non-sensical to a physicist.

>I used to think this, but find I must believe
>in Free Will or sink into despair.
>
What do you need free will for anyway?  But see above.

>If I have Free Will, then it must be something
>outside of physics.
>
Sorry.  You'll have to romanticize another conundrum.  I have plenty to 
spare if you need some.

>If there is something outside of physics, then
>I shall call it Magick, and study it.
>
By all means.  When you have studied it enough to understand it, maybe 
it will be part of physics again...  Not that I don't believe in magick,
but I *do* believe in physics.

>Two Definitions:- 
>  Free will - the ability to make my own choices
>              outside of heredity and environment.
>
I absolutely promise you you have this.  I have a notion you probably use
it on a regular basis.

>  Self Aware - a data processing system which includes
>               its own existence and actions in its data domain)
>
>Speculation:-
>Consider a hypothetical artificial intelligence,
>of comparable intellect to man, and Self Aware.
A long step...

>Compare with one which is also possessed of Free Will.
>Which, if either, have rights as an individual?
Children have free will and are more or less self aware.  However, their
rights are limited in any society.  In some societies, they are not regarded
as individuals until some particular age.  In our society that age is
generally somewhere between -3 and 0 months of age, for basic rights.
Legal self-determination comes around 16-21 years of age.

These things vary from society to society and over time.

We'll probably figure it out when it comes up.

We'll probably just define that they are automata (vive Descarte!) so we
don't have to deal with the problem.

>Which, if either, has a soul?

What's a soul?  If I'm an animist, it certainly would...

>Can Free Will be created by science?

Well, short of the quantum folks, most scientists would probably tell you
that since Free Will isn't quantifyable, science really couldn't give a 
damn.  A couple weeks ago, I heard Jay Stevens (Storming_Heaven: LSD_and_
the_American_Dream) talking about the cyberphreaks at MIT who are talking
about being able to download the ego into a computer.  "The only problem
is that you'd have to leave the emotions behind," he said, "but these 
don't figure that's much of a loss." [paraphrased]  Scared the shit outa
me.  So maybe the AI's of the future won't have souls, and they'll be
us...?

>Will Self Awareness occur spontaneously if the AI is complex enough?
>Will Free Will occur spontaneously if the AI is complex enough.
>Can Magick be used with science to create Free Will?
>Would an AI with Free Will be capable of acts of Magick
I'm actually working on an SF plot along these lines...

>  (I mean those outside of explanation by science)?
Do you mean '...currently' or '...if any' ?

>Are we AI's with Free Will?
>Are we (provably) capable of acts of Magick?

Nothing like experiential truth.  If I am that well deluded, then the 
question is moot anyway...

>What constitutes proof, beyond all reasonable doubt?
Nothing.  You are about to disappear in a puff of paradox.

Gosh, I sound like josh!  
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
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