HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kre@po.CWRU.edu (Keith R. Elflein)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: the next generation...?
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 22 Jan 1993 02:09:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: b61693.student.cwru.edu

In reading some of these articles and also from my own mind :) I have come
across an issue that i would like some input on. When I get married, my
wife will most likely not be a Wiccan..(who knows though, mebbe she will be
:) anyways, whether she is or not, what do you think about what to do when
the children come? Theoretically, one could do several things. Depending on
your situation, if both parents are Wiccan, you could introduce the
children to wicca very early..much like the judeo-christian religions do
with their children. If one parent is a wiccan and the other belongs to one
of the other religions, there could potentially be some SERIOUS conflict :)
about how to guide the child in religion. In regards to the first, is there
anyone that you know of who has always been wiccan? (meaning their parents
were wican and they have been raised wiccan) i would find that
fascinating...I would like to teach my children Wicca because i feel that
it is not only a religion, but an entire way of life that i feel is
correct. (i mean the bond between humans and the rest of nature that we are
a part of)...but then again, i don't know if my children would appreciate
it if i forced my religion down their throats, like my parents did with me.
That was probably one of the reasons i left the "religious company" that i
was a part of after discovering Wicca. Perhaps if the child was interested,
and asked questions, then i could answer and teach..but only if interested.
Maybe that is the best method. I think i really feel that the child should
be left to discover religion for (his)(her)self..with some guidance and a
lot of support from the parents :) What do you think?

Keith


"All the Gods are one God, and all the Goddesses are one Goddess, and there
is one Initiator."
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Shha   hamanism
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:46:49 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <C181wM.8K6@news.iastate.edu> txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:

>  I one\c  ce attended a shamanism-in-art lecrture at Iowa State U
>in which the lecturer said ths  at shamanism is a worldwide phenom
>enon, including in Europe and the British Isles. Pweeople here know
>about Eastern mysticism ansd Native American, Australian and African
>shamanism, but don't realize that British and European tribes parac
>ticed exactly the same spirituality. Grendel sounds like a prime
>example of that one.

No, they didn't practice the same spirituality and most scholars (which
new age lecturers aren't) know this. There is very little to almost no
evidence of Shamanism in the British Isles. All of the evidence I have
seen is of shamanIC practices, which is not the same as the whole complex
of shamanism.

> Of course Celts had religious leaders that could be described as
>shamans. They went through the same otherworld initiation of dismem
>berment and reconstruction tht is described in other cultures. 

 No, the Celts didn't have leaders that were Shamans. Can you cite some
source to give ANY evidence for this other than a new age author who is a
wannabe shaman?

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the next generation...?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 05:36:53 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: phylo.genetics.washington.edu

I know a couple of children being raised by Wiccan parents; the usual
strategy seems to be to teach them practical stuff and some basic
ethics, but not try to push theology at them.

At the Yule Feast retreat there were three pre-teen girls who, while the
adults were doing something else, painstakingly scraped together a pile
of hoarfrost and made a "snow witch".  It promptly began to snow (a
rarety near Seattle), much to their delight.  At the closing circle
their elders praised the snow, and then told the girls that they needed
to properly dispose of what they'd made.  Various adults suggested
scattering the snow witch, throwing it in the fire...the girls divided
it into three parts and threw them at each other.

The idea is that you're responsible for what you do; something those
girls will find use for, no matter what faith they practice when they
grow up.  Theology can wait.  (Their elders don't agree on it
anyway....)

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: law10@po.CWRU.Edu (Lorrie A. Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: regarding witchburning in computer games
Date: 27 Jan 1993 06:32:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


>From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
>Subject: regarding witchburning in computer games
>Date: Tue Jan 26 20:20:57 1993
>
>IF the game is as described, it doesn't sound any more offensive than
>the games based on playing the role of a Nazi concentration camp
>commander killing Jews in a death camp.
>

*lurk off*
   Or about as spiffy as the popular shareware games called Wolfenstein 
(there are currently seven), based on a berserk Polish-American running 
amok and killing Nazis.
   *hypocrite alert*
   Yes, I played it and beat it (game 1 & 7), and well, enjoyed the high- 
quality graphics and screams the Nazis made when you shot them.
   Can I help it if it was finals week?

** Oboy massive not-nice alert **

   Janis and Raven: It's been like 3 months since I said I'd send you your 
stuff and I haven't yet! Eep!
   Of course, if you've both forgotten me, I'm off the hook, right? 8-)
   Gosh, it's great to be back here. The only problem is reading all the 
copious scad of badwidth you guys put out. It's wonderful!

BB and Read You Later . . . 8-)

-- 
"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in
some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense,
false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in
some sense." -- _Principia_Discordia_ -- the Book of the Church of Eris (Chaos)
From: arthur@hardy.u.washington.edu (howard roark)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: pagans and wuakers
Date: 25 Jan 1993 05:18:52 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu


Hope this isn't a totally scerwed up question, but what does the paran commher ?


               Arthur
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: an5445@anon.penet.fi (Bad Elf)
Subject: "Winds' Four Quarters"
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.pagan
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:14:05 GMT

	I have been informed by someone who I believe has good reason to
know that the song "Winds' Four Quarters" by Mercedes Lackey (found on the
filk tapes "Magic, Moondust, and Melancholy" and "Oathbound" and frequently
performed at SF&F conventions and SCA bardic circles) is basically a
Wiccan invocation of the Goddess.  I would be very interested in comments
on this; it's one of my best performance numbers, but I would probably either
drop it or cut down on its use if it turns out that it's a "real" religious
song and not a "pretend" one.  I have no problems whatsoever with Wiccans
or other pagans (I wouldn't travel in the circles that I do now if I did),
but I feel fairly strongly about using a religion not my own to entertain
people or to "freak the mundanes".  Any comments on this would be greatly
apprieciated.

						Wind to your wings,
						Keighvan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
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From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: ailsa, do you have a cat?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:19:11 GMT

Well?

Blessings,
Janis
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Chinese Religion
Keywords: Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Confucius
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:51:19 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1993Jan20.011459.5392@csus.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu
(Murray Altheim) writes:

> In 1974, the Ma Wang Tui texts were unearthed in China, which provided the
> earliest extant manuscripts of the Lao Tzu, which, interesting enough,
> reverse the order of the two main sections. Hence, because there were two
> manuscripts and both were similarly ordered, it may be that the Tao Te Ching
> was originally written as the Te Tao Ching. The Tao section refers to the
> relations between mankind and the cosmos, the Te section on relations between
> mankind and the ruler, and issues such as filiel piety, etc. "Tao" translates
> (albeit poorly) to God or the Cosmos or whatever (I refuse to translate it
> myself), and "Te" translates roughly to "virtue".
> 
> Just as a side note: I would steer away from the Stephen Mitchell translation,
> as it is not really a translation at all but a rendering. For a more authoritive
> try the Te Tao Ching by Hendricks, the Tao Te Ching by Wu under Shambala, or 
> the inexpensive Penguin edition by D.C. Lau. Lau is very accurate to the 
> Chinese, but harder to read. Wu is clear, concise and rather sweet, while
> Hendricks is a beautifully researched edition that organizes the two Ma Wang
> Tui texts with a clear translation.
> 
> Cleary's new translation I have a few minor disagreements with, but he is
> by far my favorite translator, and has the highest respect from many people.
 
Of course, those interested in an accessible, lucid, and very entertaining
introduction to Taoist thought and philosophy should read the ten-year-old
classic, "The Tao of Pooh", and the new companion volume, "The Te of Piglet",
both by Benjamin Hoff.  I can dig up all those fun details like the
publisher and the ISBN at home tonight.

				- - Steve


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Re: GOD
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:54:36 GMT


In article <1k2rgcINNm2c@shelley.u.washington.edu>,
mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:

> In article <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org>
> Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:
> >
> >               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you
> > will go
> >to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
> 
>  Yes. Were you born without a brain or did your religion remove it?

and in article <25iZXB3w165w@tweekco.uucp>, alizard@tweekco.uucp
(A.Lizard) writes:

> Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:
> 
> > 
> >                To Whom It May Concern,
> > 
> >                There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you
> > will go
> > to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
> > 
> > 
> >  * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)
> > 
> 
> Yes. One. Who gave a clueless jerk like you access to a fidonet
> gateway?

Oh, come on, kids, relax!  Whatever happened to that much-vaunted
religious tolerance?

Just because someone is stupid and obnoxious is no reason to treat
him so rudely!

				- - Steve


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: windsphire@wizard.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Elemental Oils
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:15:16 MST

>> of my favorites is a variation of the voodoo blend 'Fire of Passsion':
>>
>>         Ambergris
>>         Musk
>>         Civet
>>         Patchouly
>>         Vetivert
>>
>>         (The first three are synthetic! Not assignable to an element
>>          but a very compelling scent.)
>>
> it sounds like it might be, but WHAT PROPORTIONS???  i love mixing my

Proportions!? What proportions!! Actually I use one measure of each, and
the same amount of olive oil as a fixative/carrier. E.g. 1/4 teaspoon 
each of the above & 1 1/4 teaspoons of olive oil. I've got a most intense
Dream Oil that I'll try to remember to post ashita. Have you come across
anything particularly 'affective'? The elemental air blend I was complaining
about, actually works pretty good in pulling in those energies, it just
doesn't reverb where I feel sylphs may play.

			-Windsphire

			"My business is Circumference"  E.D.
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15834 alt.magick:6951
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: contradiction?
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: 28 Jan 1993 19:53:43 UTC

In article <1k8k6kINNs29@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:
>In article <C1JCqn.7A6@news.iastate.edu>, 
txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:
>>someone wrote:
>>>There is an irreconcilable logical contradiction between plain sense of
>>>the saying of Jesus recorded in Matthew 12:30 = Luke 11:23 (He that is not
>>>with me is against me) and Mark 9:40 (For he that is not against us is on
>>>our part). Any questions?
>>Yes. How is this a contradiction?
>Yes.  Posit the existence of a Pagan who is neither "for" nor "against"
>Christianity, and posit further a Christian who wishes to determine
>whether to treat that Pagan as "for" or as "against" (the perils of
>dichotomous thinking, there!), and proposes to make his decision on the
>basis of Biblical principles.  By one variant of the saying, the Pagan
>is to be counted as "for," by the other as "against."  It's pretty clear
>that the variant prepositions for "for" in the original Greek [meta vs.
>hyper] don't carry a significant difference in meaning here.

Exactly. There is a contradiction here and either one sees it or one
does not. Consider it a test of dogmaticism. Given a binary (true/false)
world, which is a gross oversimplification, there are four classes of
people for these two variables: Class A is neither against nor for
Christianity, these are the neutrals. Class B is not against but for
Christianity, these are the proponents. Class C is against and for
Christianity, these are the traitors. Class D is against and not for
Christianity, these are the opponents. By the rule of Matthew 12:30 and
Luke 11:23, Class A, the neutrals, are against Christianity. By the rule
of Mark 9:40, Class A, the neutrals, are for Christianity.
Contradiction, plain and simple. Just remember, please learn from dogma
but do not become dogmatic. My doG is always barking, but doesn't she
remind you of Toto? Even in English, Roma backwards is amor.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Shha   hamanism
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:16:26 GMT


I think what we have here is a problem in terminology.
There is ample evidenced that the celtic people had shamaninc practices.
If you take a look at the native americans, even thier medicine men...
what many would term shamans.. weork in the context of thier religious
system, myths and symbols.
World wide, thier are numerous examples of shamanic practices... and they
all seem to follow a similar pattern.
If you look at the textx.. one can see ample examples of things 
that may very well be shamanic practices.
There has been mention of a 'prophet' call of druids (oops.. class of druids..)
which used ritual, trance, and acted as intermediaries with the 'spirtit
'spirit world'.
My view is that shamanisim was a part of the over all beliefe system of 
the clets celts. It was used in context of the religion.
One other book I have seen mention of this in was Celtic Heritage, by
Alwyn Rees and Brinley Rees. The book made mention of practices that
parralelled shamanic practices in other cultures.
Yes, there is alot of new age junk out there.
I just differ with you in that I think there is evidence to suport s
celtic shamanic practices. 
Just because the new-agers have sized an idea and run amok with it does not
mean there is no truth to it.
As for mathews, I have not read all of his works, but I do notices that
her  he at least bothers to support himself from text.
Which is more than many do.
Now one can debate about the meaning of the text....
Jaguar
Waiting for filed on how to edit her editor...
grrr..
From: kditto@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:19:21 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

In article <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org> Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet
org (Richard Willis) writes:
>
>               To Whom It May Concern,
>
>               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you wi
l go
>to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
>
>
> * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)
>


You know, this is quite annoying.  However, it IS this person's right for
freedom of expression, as is for everyone else who posts here and
elsewhere.  I fail to see the purpose this person had for posting this. 
Which leads me to a question...

Do people who do this *actually* think they are accomplishing anything??
(as in convering someone).  My instinct is to say no, they are just doing
it to assuage (sp??) thier conscience.  If such is the case, I'm glad
alt.pagan is here to help such people. (*please* note mild touch of
sarcasm:))

ANyway...  I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Blessings!
--Kim
From: brenda@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (brenda)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Boston area alt.paganers??
Date: 25 Jan 1993 17:40:35 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu


About Purgatory... i am *pretty sure* that its in Webster... off of Rt. 122 or
Rt. 146...  a couple of my friends just went last weekend, and despite
the snow, we climbed around... it was VERY peaceful and insulated... i ended
up breaking off from them and sitting in the middle of a grove of trees on the
top of one of the rocks.  they have a covered area of picnic tables, and
it has been a little warmer and rainy lately, so the snow might have melted.
Even if you dont climb around the rocks, there are many gorgeous places in the
woods to hang out... 

i'd love to meet other people too... i'm trying to limp out of solitary 
practice   :)

blessings
brenda

-- 
brenda@wpi.wpi.edu    "One of the witnesses MUST not be telling us      
box 1256, wpi          everything..."
worcester, ma                  ~an astonished Paul Drake, to Perry Mason   
****************************************************************************
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: 26 Jan 1993 08:07:40 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org> Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:
>
>               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you will go
>to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?

 Yes. Were you born without a brain or did your religion remove it?
From: lance@Circle.Raleigh.NC.US (Lance A. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the next generation...?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:33:47 GMT
Organization: The Full Circle, Raleigh NC - DOS/Waffle 1.65

traite@dante.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite) writes:
> In article <kre-210193205220@b61693.student.cwru.edu> kre@po.CWRU.edu (Keith 
> >In reading some of these articles and also from my own mind :) I have come
> >across an issue that i would like some input on. When I get married, my
> >wife will most likely not be a Wiccan..(who knows though, mebbe she will be
> >:) anyways, whether she is or not, what do you think about what to do when
> >the children come?
> 
> I am pagan and my husband is an atheist.  We have agreed that it is
> important that our daughter (2 years old) be allowed to choose her 
> own path.  We want to expose her to as many religions /philosphies as
> possible so that she he will be able to choose (or not choose) a path.
> To me, raising a child who  has *ethical* values and who can think for
> herself is of paramount importance. I feel that those values do not
> necessarily  need to be tied to particular religion. (Of course if she
> adopts values  similar to mine, she will probably *not*
> choose a judeo-christian path!)

This is exactly the stance my wife and I are taking.  I am pagan, she is 
still nominally christian, and neither of us wish to force our religion 
onto our children.  They will be taught about both of them and of as many 
others as we can get information about.  The UU fellowship we just joined 
will help greatly in this.  When they are of an age to make the decision we 
WILL allow them to make it as each child pleases.

> (I guess that's  my Unitarian backgound coming through. :) )

hee hee hee

Blessings,
  Lance

--
The Full Circle
 Domain: lance@circle.raleigh.nc.us (Lance A. Brown)  [ preferred ]
  Bangs: ...!wolves!circle!lance 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: wearing pagan/pentacle jewelry
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<fX0rqt#@quack.sac.ca.us> <1993Jan20.045913.10276@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
Date: 22 Jan 1993 09:04:04 UTC

In article <1993Jan20.045913.10276@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> 
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>The Swastika is a reversed sunwheel, thus the direction is disorder or
>>chaos. The Nazis did very much damage this pagan symbol, very badly.
>The idea that one of the enantimorphs of the swastika is good and the
>other bad postdates the Nazis.  On very old Irish tombstones you will
>find both orientations, used symmetrically (such as clockwise on the
>left, counter on the right or vice versa) with no clear distinction
>between the two.  After Nazism, though, people were very insistant about
>using the "other one".

There is a reason for this. Before Christianity really, good and bad
were seen as a pair, an inseperable pair. But Christianity teaches that
one must cast out bad as if one can seperate the two, that is have one
without the other. The technical term is evil and a Christian speaks of
good versus evil, Jesus versus Lucifer, etc. The clockwise sunwheel is
also symbolic of a prior age, the Paleolithic, when humans were a part
of nature and the counterclockwise sunwheel is symbolic of the Neolithic
when humans began to control and dominate nature. We moderns speak of
man-made things as not natural. Man-made in this sense would be the
reversed sunwheel. Make sense? One goes against the sun or with the sun,
maybe good, maybe bad, but never evil, until Hitler. There's more to it
but that's the basic idea, one symbolizes the direction of the sun, the
other is opposite to the sun, forward versus backwards, natural versus
man-made or perhaps supernatural.
From: kenyon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Free Book
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:01:13 GMT
Reply-To: kenyon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

Along the lines of some previous postings, listing the names and addresses
of certain religeous orders, I noticed an ad on TV for a free copy of the
Book of Mormon. The number to call is 1-800-922-4200 ( or it may be -4280 ),
and they will give you a copy.  Anyone who is doing any comparative religion
studies might find this useful.