From: dennis@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Thomas A. Dennis)
Subject: Re: sdf.lonestar.org:/u/df/suicide_quux
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:53:35 GMT

In <1992Oct10.011708.17107@udel.edu> Psycho Kitten writes:

> Of course societies try to make people feel that they must 
>continue their lives no matter what... it's not in the best interest of
>the society to have people off themselves when they are no longer happy
>and/or no longer desire to live.  Laws are passed against suicide to
>try to keep people from killing themselves... those who simply won't
>do it don't want to be left all alone with the added responibility.  Death
>creates problems for those who are still alive... by keeping as many
>people alive as possible, society aims to spread the misery, pain and
>responibility among everyone.  If everyone just died when things got
>too bad, who'd be left to oppress? (what a sad thought...)  If you're
>dead, they can't control you.  

I'm sorry, but this is horseshit.  All projection of one's own suicidal 
tendencies onto others aside, just how many people do you think would snuff 
themselves, if "society" at large condoned their self-destructiveness, or even 
encouraged it?  "Society" will always have plenty of people to oppress, because
most people want to live, for no other reason than they're biologically 
programmed to stay alive as long as they're capable of breeding.  If "society"
wanted as many live people to oppress as possible, why would it promote the 
dumping of toxic waste, tobacco addiction, and many other things that destroy 
lives?  Most of the people whose lives truly seem to have lost any 
meaning--those in nursing homes, bedridden, in the throes of terminal 
disease--have been ignored and abandoned by society; they are already too 
miserable to take on any of society's misery.  

No law has ever been passed that has prevented someone from committing 
suicide, IF THAT'S WHAT THEY REALLY AND TRULY WANT TO DO, as opposed to 
getting someone's attention.  People deprived of ropes in jail cells have used 
their pants, shirts, bras, and/or nylons; refused razor blades, they have 
opened veins with fingernails and teeth.  One man who was under a "suicide 
watch" in an asylum was put in a straitjacket and kept under twenty-four hour 
camera surveillance; in bed, he turned his face away from the camera and 
started to swallow the bedsheet.  When the cloth triggered his gag reflex, he 
choked to death on his own vomit.  Willingly.

The people who don't want you to commit suicide aren't against it because they
need a scapegoat or torture victim; they're just plain horrified that someone 
would actually, willingly consent to terminate themselves.  I've worked on a 
crisis hotline, and most of the professionals and paraprofessionals that I've 
worked with are just as far out on the fringes of society as you are.(Not 
"you" personally...)  Why else would they be hanging out on the crisis line on 
a Friday night, trying to get you to take the gun barrel out of your mouth, 
while "society" is out hitting the bars?

> I do think people should live for themselves... but I happen
>to derive pleasure from enriching people's lives.  It's almost like
>playing god... you get to decide who will benifit from your existance and
>who you will ignore.  Life can also be based on hatred or an abstract
>idea/goal.  I lived for many years on hatred and spite... it's not the
>best type of existance, but it can be quite enjoyable at times.  Now I
>enjoy granting benevolance on whomever I chose... I enjoy bringing a
>smile to people's faces or a light of understanding in their eyes.

> Once you're born, the only thing that is truely required of
>you is that you die.  If you chose to live among other humans (usually
>the default choice - whether you like it or not), following at least some
>of the social standards helps make your daily interaction flow a bit
>smoother.  Of course people encourage you to live... they don't
>want to deal with all the loose ends that death leaves for the living.  

More horseshit.  How long does it really take to clean up the loose ends of a 
successful suicide's life?  A few days, maybe two weeks?  The funeral, the 
will, cleaning out the sock drawer--not very time-consuming.  Oh, and someone 
else has to do the dishes.  Sometimes people want you to live because they like
you, not because they dread having to clean the blood out of the grout in the 
bathroom--unless, of course, you're the kind of person that lives "for many 
years on hatred and spite"--in which case, they might resent having to deal 
with your odds and ends.  That's assuming that you have anyone in your life at
that stage.

Flame away, if you must, but I felt compelled to counter this extraordinarily 
selfish and nihilistic perspective with my own.

>               Psycho Kitten

> 
>-- 

>Psycho Kitten   \ zaphodb@brahms.udel.edu    \ Check my .plan \ Just a Grim
>Angela M. Watson \ awatson@pecan.cns.udel.edu \ for more info  \ Reaper 
wannabe

--

Tom Dennis                    |  I looked into the abyss,
dennis@alexia.uiuc.edu        |    and the abyss looked into me--
tadg0614@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     |      and we both winked.