HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.OZ.AU (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.psychedelic
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:55:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.043559.29502@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Mitchell.Porter@launchpad.unc.edu (Mitchell Porter) writes:
|> 
|> Proposal: talk.psychedelic
|> Status: unmoderated
|> 
|> Charter: talk.psychedelic would be for discussion of the "psychedelic
|> experience", and the art, literature, religions and philosophies arising
|> from it. 
|> 
|> Rationale: Occasionally the proposal is made to split alt.drugs, with some
|> for and some against. About a month ago talk.psychedelic was propoosed and
|> there were a few expressions of interest. I would now like to re-propose
|> it more formally, so that the matter can be decided. It seems to me that
|> just as talk.politics.drugs provides a space where people can discuss the
|> civil rights and politics of drug use without further adding to the
|> traffic in the "alt" groups, talk.psychedelic could do the same for the
|> topics listed above.

I say no way.  Im getting sick of the endless splintering of newsgroups.
Whatever happened to cross-polination of ideas?  I like reading about
lots of different threads in a newsgroup because often I get ideas from
reading two posts on different but related threads in the same
newsgroup. 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:23:13 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith):
>I (and others)

  [including me, for one]

>claim that the decrease in traffic on rec.music.*.synth is a result _not_
>of the group being renamed, but rather of your insistence on crossposting
>the flame war to that group. [...] "Dave, you directly and deliberately
>acted in a way that harmed the synth discussion group."

Bravo!  <applause>
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Date: 14 Dec 92 04:48:42 GMT
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95

>>> True enough.  But 'native' is not good, either.  I am a native.  I was born
>>> here.  The same thing went round and round last time.
>>This is a very interesting idea, one which I was first introduced to
>>a couple of days ago in a mail message.  I mean, it's true that you
>>are a native American, even if you are not a member of an
>>indigenous nation.  That's clear.  And it's also true that
>>there really is no single word that covers all indigenous people
>>to this continent.  Words like Native American, American Indian and
>>so forth are really only conveniences, because our true nationality
>>is our sovereign native nations.
>I'd suggest the following as possible names, with people of course being free
>to suggest others:
>
>soc.culture.native
>soc.culture.native.american (recognizing that there is no soc.culture.native
>                             group for this to hang under at present)
>soc.culture.amerind
>soc.culture.native-america
>soc.culture.indigenous
>soc.culture.???
>
>Comments?

Weren't there something like *three* waves of immigration from Asia before
the Europeans came over?  Are the current {amerind,natives,whatever} from
the last of these groups, or from an earlier group, or what?  If they
aren't from the last group, I don't see how they are any more native than
those who came after: either everyone born here is native, or only the
very first group is native.

How about four or five groups:

	soc.culture.american.n_plus_1	Future Landlords
	soc.culture.american.n		Current Landlords
	soc.culture.american.n_minus_1	Immediate Previous Landlords
	soc.culture.american.n_minus_2	Landlords before the above
	soc.culture.american.n_minus_3	Landlords before the above

(Insert :-)'s as needed in the above...)

--Tim Smith
Xref: sparky news.groups:24660 alt.native:1482
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native.american
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 11:51:17 GMT

In article <idoy.724717177@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
	(Mike Wilson) writes:
> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> 
> >...
> >In that case:
> 
> >                  soc.culture.native.na (North American)
> >                  soc.culture.native.sa (South American)
> >                  soc.culture.native.eu (Europe)
> >                  soc.culture.native.as (Asia)
> >                  soc.culture.native.af (Africa)
> 
> >..... and so on. 

> ... I thought that, in a general sense, the way that
> creating newsgroups worked was to create the hierarchy, and
> then later to propose new RFDs for these other groups.  Once
> a solid hierarchy was created, in other words, others could
> later build upon it as they wished.

Right, but what we want to give some thought to at this point is what
sort of base we are building for later development.  Since we do not
yet have a subject-matter exchange going, aside from what already exists
on the NativeNet mailing lists, it seems too soon to attempt a breakdown
by region, so we are probably better off with just creating a basic
"soc.culture.native" at this point, though I would prefer making the
next level of division bifurcated based on a distinction between infor-
mation (".info") and discussion (".chat" or ".misc"), to permit easy links
with NativeNet lists to be established.  Later, a "soc.culture.native.chat"
newsgroup could be used to consider whether it was time to talk about
creating a "soc.culture.native.info.america" or some such, if there was
enough traffic of a strictly (North/South) American nature, and if folks
wanted to consider that subject matter separately.

How does that idea sound?

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *poing*
Date: 16 Dec 1992 05:06:52 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Dec16.010017.8525@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) displays his artistic talent.
>I just wanted to say that it was very creative. 

*gasp*

Dave and I actually agree on something... :-)
I rather enjoyed it.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:12:09 GMT

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:

>Well, it depends on what you want.  The purpose of straw polls, in my
>impression, is to determine what the best name would be in order to
>give the newsgroup the best chance of passing.  If you want the
>newsgroup to eventually pass, it is in your best interest to LISTEN to
>the opinions of the net when you ask them, rather than choosing a name
>yourself and campaigning people to vote for it in the straw.  Your
>eventual official voters are sending you their opinions now.  Listen
>to them so that when you do bring this to an official vote, the voting
>population will be happy with what you eventually propose.  If you
>skew the results with your own opinion and excitement for it, then you
>run the risk of losing out when the greater net retaliates by voting
>against the name they don't like.

>-sz

Hello Karleen, 

Thank you for the wise advice. I will indeed refrain from          
campaigning.  In my strong desire to get this newsgroup done,
I lost sight of the Straw Poll's purpose -- as you say, to 
find our what most people here actually want for a name, which
is finally in my best interest to now if I want this newsgroup
to pass a vote on down the line.

Happy Holidays,

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<cuz.723904780@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu>
	<1992Dec9.222402.17001@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<cuz.723941317@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu>
	<1992Dec10.231918.12285@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:43:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.231918.12285@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   I've seen twice the traffic in the old group that was in the new
   group.

That is not evidence that news admins are split over the vote.
Traffic comparisons now reflect the fact that both groups exist until
the rmgroup goes out, and seem to me to be evidence of inertia.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<Bz397K.I7B@polaris.async.vt.edu>
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec13113739@mother.intellection.com>
	<yenamand.724366179@micro>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:10:47 GMT

In article <yenamand.724366179@micro> yenamand@micro.cs.umn.edu (Murthy Yenamandra) writes:

   emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:

   >   I'd suggest the following as possible names, with people of course
   >   being free to suggest others:
   >   soc.culture.native
   >   [...]

Just to be clear, I did not write this half of the article you quote.
Joel Furr did, and my attribution to him somehow disappeared from your
quotation.

   To me, "aboriginal" always seemed to be tinged with contempt.

As I said in another article, unfortunately, so do all the other
words.

Regards, Ed
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
From: h235_030@ccvax.ucd.ie (TOP GUN)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.sport.rowing
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:02:47 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University College Dublin

In article <1gjc0nINN2q1@news.UU.NET>, gumby@spock.uucp (Danny Richman) writes:
> Proposed Newsgroup: rec.sport.rowing
> 
> Type: UNMODERATED
> 
> The purpose of rec.sport.rowing is to provide those who are interested
> in the sport of rowing, with the ability to communicate with other fellow
> rowers throughout the civilized world.  It would serve as an informant for
> those who no nothing about the sport, those who want to share the latest
> information on races and new equipment, and those who just want to share
> their experiences with everyone else.  It gives everyone the opportunity to
> enhance their knowledge of rowing and keeping fit. 
> 
> 
> Acceptable Postings:
> 
>         1.  Any questions, comments, results, or suggestions which are related
> to either rowing or erging.  
> 
>         2.  Any postings which may fall into the rowing category must deal
> with:  sweep oar rowing, sculling, or coxing.
> 
> 
> The proposed newsgroup, rec.sport.rowing, would open up a new frontier for 
> rowers around the world.  Currently the only newsgroup which rowers are only 
> slightly welcome to is rec.boats.paddle.  Rowing is completely unrelated to 
> canoeing, kayaking, or river rafting, and the discussions which take place 
> there are of no interest to rowers.  Therefore, it is necessary for a new 
> newsgroup to come into existence.  Having a separate rowing group allows
> readers to gain a sense of unity, and gives them the ability to discuss 
> topics which interest everyone in the particular group.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ------EVERYONE who supports rec.sport.rowing, please contact both me (Dan) at 
> gumby@choate.edu, and Mark at MDD114@psuvm.psu.edu.  Also we need someone 
> who is an experienced vote taker to be in charge of the CFV,  Any vounteers???
> Also, spread the word to others about this proposed newsgroup.  The CFV should
> be in about a month from now.  
> 
> Any suggestions for this charter please e-mail me.....

We are members of U.C.D. boat club and we have become disillusioned with
the abscence of a relevant news-group. We think it's a great idea and we'd be
only delighted to contribute to it.
					TOM McCARTHY,
					RUAIRI YOUNG,
					STEVEN 'kegs' GAFFNEY,
					HUGH B KINSELLA,
					TOM HENRY. national champs.

	STALK!!!!
							
					TOM HENRY.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.security.email
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:50:44 GMT

  I should also point out that there is regular discussion of email
security issues in comp.security.misc and that those discussions have
existed regularly since that newsgroup was created and existed in
alt.security before then.  So much of the installed base of readers
already hangs out in comp.security.

  By contrast, email security is not a discussion in comp.mail.misc or
the other comp.mail.* groups to nearly the same volume or long-term
consistency.  

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.cyber
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:44:22 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

It occurs to me that the Guidelines don't actually cover unmoderation,
or at least they didn't last time I looked.  Assuming the moderator
agrees, what exactly is wrong with just running a single vote here?

1. Move rec.games.cyber to rec.games.frp.cyber unmoderated.

Clean, simple.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
From: murphy@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:29:21 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NPRI, Alexandria VA

>>Not even when the article has no acronyms at all in it?
>>
>>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)

 >Not unless it's posted several times in a manner in which you cannot help
 >but be aware that something is going on.
 >
 >dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)

duh.  almost everyone in this thread already believes this is true, dave;
one man's "obviously aware" seems to be another's "this doesn't affect me".

you must propose a less abstract goal.

ok
dpm
-- 
murphy@npri6.npri.com 602 Cameron St. Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 683-9090

              When every one is dead the Great Game is finished.  Not before.
                              --- Hurree Babu, "Kim"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:35:24 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1gjc0uINN2qa@news.UU.NET> brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:

+>I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
+>This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
+>and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other basic 
+>US Constitutional topics.

	How about talk.politics.reactionary as an alternative?




Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Keywords: native, straw vote, concensus
Organization: This space for rent.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:22:19 GMT

In article <idoy.724520011@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson) writes:
>ETHICAL QUESTION REGARDING STRAW VOTES
>
>I have been chomping at the bit to campaign amongst all
>my net friends to vote for the name of the newsgroup
>that I like, but I am told that campaigning for these
>votes is maybe unethical.

The guidelines do not apply to a straw vote.  Campaign away.

>I would like to hear opinions about this.  So far, I have
>asked 5 friends for help (although one voted for another
>name, which says something about the dismal quality of my
>friendships, I guess).  Should I not campaign?  Should I 
>cast out these five votes?

I would be worried if all of my friends always agreed with me. :)

Again, straw votes do not really count, so do what you want.
The net vote police will take exception to campaigning by the
vote taker during a real vote, however.

If you want to be free to lead the discussion now and during
the real vote (the one that counts) I would be glad to conduct
the vote for you.  You can then campaign all you want while I
post the call for votes and keep out of the discussion.
-- 
Jan Isley   jan@bagend.uucp   gatech.edu!bagend!jan   (404)434-1335
From: llama@pooh.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: ross and dave against the world
Date: 13 Dec 92 19:57:18 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

wheeeeee. thud. i've just waded through what felt like megs and megs
of ross, dave, and responses to ross and dave. moderately
entertaining, i spose, since it's a rainy day and there's nothing much
to do anyway.

all the threads of this news.groups hydra seem to follow the same
pattern, though:

ross/dave : it's unfair, the way you guys run things.
everyone
 else     : but "you guys" is everyone on the net. anyone can vote.
r/d       : no, they can't, because no one personally informs them.
ee        : they can inform themselves.
r/d       : someone needs to make it harder for them to be uninformed.
ee        : fine. *how* should we do this? it seems impossible.
r/d       : you're so elitist!

and we're off again into a maelstrom of accusation, counteraccusation,
demands for evidence, all of it circling in on itself and going
nowhere.

it's pretty obvious that this is never gonne be resolved. ross is
convinced that there's some murky conspiracy wherein a secret elite
decides the future of the net, yanking newsgroups out from under
unsuspecting readers. he's intent on clinging to this belief in spite
of all the evidence people are presenting to the contrary. it's even
more obvious that dave's just not going to agree with anyone about
anything, as a matter of either principle or disposition.

so what's the point? is *anything* being accomplished by this?

just curious.

--
sine nomine | deb martinson
what's red and invisible?
no tomatoes.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Futility
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:34:23 GMT

karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>Just how do I win from shutting up? 
>By allowing others to assume, however incorrectly, that
>you have enough maturity and self respect to admit that
>you're wrong, or to do something constructive about a
>problem instead of whining about it incessantly?

But that stops others from making the assumption from posts
like the above that most people in news.groups are people who
are so needlessly confrontational that they can't ignore 
someone who they themselves consider immature and obnoxious. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

By definition, when you are investigating the unknown, you do not know what you
will find or even when you have found it. 
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:37:41 GMT

sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane) writes:

>In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec12155241@mother.intellection.com>, emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>>...  It would be nice if someone with more vote results archived would apply
>> the proposed rule to them and report the results.

>Here is a list of 508 passing votes over the last couple of years, and
>how they would have fared under these rules.  Only 152 of the 508
>would have passed.

Given the doubling time of the net is measured in months, only those
comparisons less than 6 months old should be used.
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:44:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.202255.5783@wuecl.wustl.edu> amc@wucs1.wustl.edu (Adam Costello) writes:
> I don't see why there should be no-votes at all.  I think if 200 people
> want a new group, let them have it.

Ah, here we go again. Let's see, how does the standard argument go: oh yes,
if I can conjure up 200 votes for rec.sex.adam.costello I should be able to
have it. Not.

NO votes aren't to keep people from having a group, they're to keep people
from creating groups with names that don't match the intended topic or that
don't fit well into the namespace. Like misc.activism.general (moderated) or
sci.aquaria.

> It's not as if creating new groups increases the
> total volume of USENET.  It just makes it easier for people to locate
> the information they're looking for.

If the name is poorly chosen it makes it harder for people to locate the
information they're looking for.
-- 
%Peter da Silva/77487-5012 USA/+1 713 274 5180/Have you hugged your wolf today?
/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def/F{0 562 moveto 180 576 324 648 396 736 C 432 736 L
482 670 518 634 612 612 C}def/G{setgray}def .75 G F 612 792 L 0 792 L fill 1 G
324 720 24 0 360 arc fill 0 G 3 setlinewidth F stroke showpage % "Peerless"
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Futility
Date: 14 Dec 1992 21:44:29 GMT
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec14.142238.9311@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Just how do I win from shutting up? 

By allowing others to assume, however incorrectly, that
you have enough maturity and self respect to admit that
you're wrong, or to do something constructive about a
problem instead of whining about it incessantly?
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu