From: huss8397@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: attention: gov't debate f
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:44:54 -0600
Distribution: soc
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Dec11.4298.40124@dosgate>, "micky wong" <micky.wong@canrem.com> writes:
> In Article: <1992Dec7.131234.9221@iscsvax.uni.edu>
>    Subject: ATTENTION: Gov't debate folks. READ!
>       From: huss8397@iscsvax.uni.edu Mark Huss {?} writes:
> 

>>  1.  90% of Chinese are peasants living in the countryside.  Most of
>>      them don't give a hoot about what is going on in the government.
> 
> Please read the following from today's CND-Global
> 
> [Agence France Presse, 12/9/1992]
> BEIJING -- Social stability will be affected in China if agriculture is
> neglected, the People's Daily said Wednesday in a lengthy page-one
> editorial. The comment by the main voice of the Chinese Communist Party
> came after several warnings from leaders on the risks of unrest in the
> countryside as discontent among farmers simmers. "The problem cannot be
> taken lightly," Agriculture Minister Liu Zhonyi said Monday. A week
> earlier, Vice Premier Tian Jiyun warned that unequal economic
> development could spell peasant protests.
> <(Forwarded by: Stephen Kam-Cheung Ng <skn1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>)
> 
>    I hope that this can be deemed as a kind of true progress, that some
> leaders of the CG are willing to speak and facing the truth, regardless
> how unpleasant it may be.
        
        I agree that it is progress that the leaders of the CCP are begining to
speak and and listen to the truth.  They really have no choice.  As history has
shown in China when the common people start to get angry the government had
better listen, because their ivory tower may begin to weaken.
        However, I have some problems with the above article.  The article says
that farmers are AFRAID that agriculture MIGHT get neglected.  It does not
explain what they mean by neglected.  Are the afraid of what will happen if all
grain prices are freed?  Are they afraid that their salary will not keep up
with inflation?  
        It appears that the peasents are afraid that they will be left out of
the economic boom.  It just goes to show that the peasant's views and opinions
will have to be taken into consideration with a lot of weight.
        This also foreshadows a potential problem for democracy in China.  If
everyone in China has the right to vote, with 80% to 90% of them being peasants
who are already digruntled with their stake in the economy, what kind of
government do you think will be elected?   

 
>>   2.  The Tiananmen movement was not just because of a want of
>>democracy. There were other things that bothered people at that time,
>>such as corruption, low salaries and high inflation.
> 
>    Agree. However, regardless the cause of the movement, the CCP have no
> excuse for committing the atrocity of slaughtering peaceful and weapon less
> student demonstrators on the TAM.

        I get the impression that you think I condone the CCP's action in
Tiananmen.  I do not. 
> 
>>  3.  China is trying to modernize.  As it does this it is being forced
>>to accept foreign concepts and ideas.  Some things will have to change
>>in China in order for the economic growth to continue.
> 
>    No one is forcing China to accept any "foreign concepts and ideas",
> concepts and ideas transcends national boundaries. Good concepts and
> ideas belongs to the whole mankind. Many of the good Chinese concepts
> and ideas had been adopted by many foreign countries.
        
        I agree with you completely, about ideas and concepts belonging to all.   
But there is such a thing as foreign concepts in ideas.  I am not talking about
the idea itself but the implementation itself.  I am sure that many people had
thought of democracy, and space flight and may have even drawn up the plans for
it, but rarely if ever, were these the people to implement it.   
> 
>    One of our savant au courant Mr James Ou can tell you a lot of good
> Chinese ideas and concepts which are copied and used by many foreigners.

        Every country and person can tell you about "the one that got away" and
that "million dollar revolutionary invention" they had but never did anything
about and then tragically someone stole it.
        Look at your above reply, where you say "concepts and ideas transcends
national boundaries".  Now tell me how you can prove that the idea and concept
is "Chinese."  If it belongs to all mankind then you cannot say it is Chinese,
which is a statement signifying possession. 
> 
>>  4.  There is nothing that America can hold over China's head.  If the
>>US withdraws MFN, all that will happen is the door will be shut on the
>>US.  MFN means that it will be easier for information to get in and out.
>>If you are in favor of democracy then you better keep the channels of
>>communication open. Withdraw MFN and China will laugh at the US and keep
>>on what it is doing.
> 
> Wrong again, please read the following news from CND-Global of 12/9/92

        Being "wrong" is a matter of personal opinion.
> 
> BEIJING -- Vice Premier Zhu Rongji said Wednesday China values relations
> with the United States and pledged respect for Sino-U.S. agreements, the
> official Xinhua news agency reported.
 
        Of course he did.  It is the diplomatic thing to say.

> Meeting with visiting Lt. Gov. Leo McCarthy of California, Zhu confirmed
> China would implement Sino-U.S. agreements on intellectual property rights
> and market access, Xinhua said. The agreements were a major bone of
> contention between China and the United States before they were signed
> earlier this year. 
> Zhu also "noted that China attaches great importance to Sino-U.S. relations,
> particularly co-operation in the fields of economy and trade," Xinhua said.
        
        Once again, this is the diplomatic thing to say.  As you, I am sure
know, China is very capable of saying one thing and doing another.
 
>> 5.  There are good "communists" just as there are bad "capitalists".
> 
>   Agree, but before the CCP formally renounce the 6.4 killing and allow
> true freedom of press and freedom of expression, to safeguard the rampant
> corruption of those CCP cadres, from stealing the fruits of China's economic
> reform, we'll continue our condemnation of CCP as a party!

        I agreee that a more free press and media would be good.  Please
elaborate on the "6.4 killing".  What is the base number?  Is it 6.4 million? 
Would you please reveal your source of this information?
        Attacking the CCP as a party is like chopping down an apple tree
because some of its fruit is rotten.  Would it not be easier to attack the
people who are corrupt, inept and inefficient?
        Do not get the idea that I am in favor of the CCP.  I am neutral on the
issue.  I am trying to separate the truth from the crap which comes from both
the left and the right.

>> 6.  Change will come to China.  Just give it time and patience.
>>If you try to push China all that will happen is it getting angry.
>>Just like pushing a stick at a hornets nest.
>>Do it enough and sooner or later you'll get stung.
> 
> Your metaphor of comparing CCP to the hornets is very refreshing and
> enlightening.   :-)

        Thank you, I do believe that is the first compliment that I have
received from you.
> 
>>  Now please do us a favor.  Keep the bantering to a minimum and
>>constructive.  It seems to that this argument is left to a few people.
>>Howabout moving your debate to E-mail.
> 
> Sorry that you plea is not granted, because you produced no convincing
> argument. So the truth is you don't want people to know the dirt of the
> CCP eh?

        I don't think that anybody knows the dirt about the CCP, especially
you.  The truth is that a fact filled discussion with the politics left out
would be more fruitful.  The unsunstantiated political crap from both sides gets tiring and
solves nothing.  At the end when all the crap is gone, then the truth will come
out no matter how painful it is for either side. 

>>        Thank You.

> You are not welcome.

        Bad day, eh?
 
>>        Mark D. Huss
> 
> Very interesting, A "white barbarian" talk like an very ill-informed
> hard liners of the CCP.   :-)

        This yang kuei tzu couldn't care less about the CCP.  However, I do
care that the Chinese people have a prosperous future.  If you wish to have a
say in that future then discuss things with fact and leave the political
diatribe at home.  People who can only spew the political line and
not think independently are not tolerated or appreciated for long.
 
>>        University of Northern Iowa.
> 
> Even a good school can teach no fools.

        Up until this point your argument was enjoyable and constructive.  But
with the last line here you completely lost all crediblity in my eyes.  Only
the desperate resort to name calling.

        Thanks Again, I hope you have a better day :-)
        Mark D. Huss
        University of Northern Iowa

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