HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: world
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 18:49:27 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> (Tomislav Grgic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Emigrants and their political role in f

In article <1992Apr3.111748.8066@isy.liu.se>, predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
says:
>
>First, I think it's important to distinct emigrants from emigrants. One kind
>is those who emigrated beacuse of their political believes or for economical
>reasons,  but didn't
>involve with terrorist groups in their new countries. The fact that they      d
>decide to make such a move (emigrating)  prooves that they are people with
>guts. They should also be treated
>as a resource back in their homeland and I don't see any reason why not having
>them in a government if they are suited. The other kind is those who emigrate d
>because they were real criminals (Baresic etc...), i.e. killers, nobodies who
>later joined various terrorist groups, these kind of
>people shouldn't be welcome home, it is not a loss if they stay in Paraguay or
>wherever they are.
>
>...stuff deleted...
>
>Regards
>
>---
>/Predrag      email: predrag@isy.liu.se

Your opinion (and that's all it is) of the second group being killers and
nobodies is false. You have been reading too much 'official Yugoslav
state propaganda' put out during the existence of the prior Yugoslavia -
and you have obviously reached the point of confusing fact with fiction.
If you like believe it, but you'd be foolish to cite that particular opinion
again.

Humbly yours,

Tomislav Grgic
BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca
------------------------------------------------
"Sve se vraca, sve se placa. svaki stari dug."
------------------------------------------------
From: blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Money for Croatian Children
Date: 6 Apr 92 06:15:15 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility

In article <16448@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>
>one of the most advanced YNA tanks costs about 2.5 million dollar. It is
>known as T-84, and the average market cost is about 16 million dollars (at
>least according to my US friend resources).

BTW, why 2.5 and 16?

>well, 10,000$ per one misslie, can put one kid in school for 15 years,

A little bit of amateur accounting could probably easily demonstrate that it
would have been cheaper for Croatia to defend itself (assuming there was no
arms embargo) than rebuild afterward.  Let's pick an obvious example:
Dubrovnik.  How much money will it cost to restore the old city and rebuild
the hotels??  Your point may be true in and of itself, but the implication
is wrong completely. 

Regards,

Joe Blazic
blazic@ecf.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: CNN broadcasted...
From: <PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Sunday, 12 Apr 1992 22:34:08 EDT
Organization: Penn State University

"CNN  World  Report  broadcasted  from Switzerland just said that
 this country is a center out of which guns are sent to Yugoslavia
 and Turkey."

"Belgrade TV broadcasted that 3000 refuges came from Sarajevo including        g
few Jews from Bosnia-Hercegovina community there.More Jews stayed back."

"The regular program announced a possible cease fire after all the
killing in this newly recognized State. And showed more refugees and a
troops."
                       ...As seen by Andronikos Romanos
)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R)
Subject: Re: Money for Croatian Children
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:00:18 GMT

In article <16510@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.061515.17223@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>>
>>A little bit of amateur accounting could probably easily demonstrate that it
>>would have been cheaper for Croatia to defend itself (assuming there was no
>>arms embargo) than rebuild afterward.
>
>Officially , Joe you have proved you are a person who care more
>about property then about people.

What??  Don't be silly.

It is just as obvious if you look at it from a casualty perspective.  The 
earlier a stalemate is forced, the earlier a war is over, the less the
casualties.


>Nik

Joe
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: evo shale ba., on serbo-croatian
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:51:47 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr9.073120.11044@cc.uow.edu.au> cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:
>  And when the bombs will be falling
>on Belgrade, I will not triumph.   I will be sad and depressed, as I am now.
>
>Muris
Dream on Muris.

Milan
P.S.  A question.  If Bijeljina is predominantly Serbian town,
why did Serbs have to liberate it?  Did some members of your family
decide, may be, to take it over? It seems to me that Muslims do have two 
group of options.  One group are those of Mesa Selimovic, Emir Kusturica,
or Fikret Abdic.  The other one is the option of great mufti El Huseini
or his stern follower Alija Izetbegovic. In one case we will sing 
"Svjeta vera nam ne krati,
Imenom se svojim zvati,
Ljubit rod svoj."
Osman Cicic,  from "Pobratimstvo"
In the other, I'd better not mention. 
I hope that your family would be well and that everything will end on
mutual satisfaction.  
P.P.S.  Please do read options carefully.  Emir, Mesa and Fikret do 
differ considerably in what they have to say. There is enough room for
everyone. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: robger@intellistor.com (Robert Gerovski)
Subject: News Briefs
Organization: Intellistor, Longmont, CO
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 16:53:10 GMT

Reprinted without permission.

"The Wall Street Journal," Friday, April 17, 1992

Yugoslavia's army reportedly crushed Muslim resistance in a
town in the breakaway republic of B-H, even as U.N. envoy
Vance sought to end ethnic [exception by Andrej noted - RSG]
clashes there. Vance's mission coincided with criticism of
Serbian leaders and the federal army by Western Governments.

--
NOTE: yesterday I saw a brief saying that the federal army
was planing to side with Serbs in B-H, and that Western
Governments said that actions on the part of the army was
beyond that of civilized people. Please note that this is
highly paraphrased.
--
Robert Gerovski
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Uncivilized Andrej
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:50:59 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Andrej, the proponent of Greater Slovenia, writes:

>If I remember correctly, Napoleon, the famous French general who managed
>to lose about 300,000 men in Russia, was not French himself.  He came


      
      He lost 500,000 men in Russia (a smile of satisfaction
      appearing on my face :-).


>from an Italian Corsican family.  Similarly, Hitler, the tall blond 
>"Uebermensch" who managed to lose about 3,000,000 men in Russia, was not
>German.  In fact, he was an Austrian of Jewish background (and his real
>family name was Schickelgruber).  Should I go on?  O.K.  One of the most


      
      The above is simply garbage.  Hitler was certainly not
      of Jewish descent.  I'd advise you, esteemed Andrej, to
      conduct a tad more research before posting such profane
      lies (i.e. ne ebi mozgi)  BTW, where is your
      characteristic "ha, ha, ha" trademark?


>capable officers of the new Slovene army, who is in charge of the 
>Styrian military district and who showed his military prowess during the
>"ten-day war," is a Slovenized Montenegrin and his last name is (ha, ha,
>ha!) Milosevic!  (By the way, is it true that Kapetan Dragan is actually


      Ah, here it is!


>of Jewish background?)  Moreover, it is extremely interesting to note
>that the leaders of Austrian and Italian anti-Slovene parties (the Heimatdienst
>and Liga di Trieste) are both of Slovene origin!

>Isn't this just simply amazing?  I mean, I haven't come up with a theory
>to explain these phenomena, but, still, it would be interesting to hear
>what other readers of "soc.culture.yugoslavia" think about this.

>Regards,

>Andrej



-- Eduard Wiener
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: scm@cs.brown.edu (Stanislav Markovic)
Subject: Re: JUST WONDERING . . .
Organization: Brown University, Department of Computer Science
	<1992Apr11.161948.10966@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<1992Apr14.153818.6955@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 21:48:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.153818.6955@bcrka451.bnr.ca> robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743) writes:

> PS Andrej -- I too can't figure out whether you're serious or not; such
> extreme behaviour is often indicative of a parody ;-)

Which only shows that you still have a good deal to learn about us.
Although I would probably assume that your understanding of Yugoslav
issues is above average, right?

What nauseates me beyond belief, though, is when a non-Yugoslav
describes the postings on this group as "juvenile".
WhatonEarthgivesyoutherighttodothat? I can just picture you, sitting
in your comfortable offices/homes. You have a friend or two from
ex-Yu, maybe you've been once or twice in Dubrovnik, you see some
turbulence going on down there, so you begin reading scy. And when you
find a posting by, say, Nikola, that maybe contains some grammatical
errors, or is not entirely logically consistent, or is simply written
in a fit of passion after something terrible happens there, you think
to yourselves: "Oh, he's just childish. No wonder things like that are
happening in Yu, they're just like kids breaking toys all over the
place. Why are they not rational like we are and worry just about
*economy* and *money*?" (and read rec.org.mensa and alt.personals).

With all love/hate that exists between Yu nations, we could still have
escaped the war, were it not for the Western countries (and especially
the US) that literally pushed us into it. So please don't tell us what
we are and are not, because we've had it _up_to_here_. At least I
have, though it seems that some of the scy regulars want more. Well
email them. Email them how terrible scy is, how juvenile we are, how
we fight and argue and flame each other over the net, how we discuss
some irrelevant issues like who is right and who is wrong, how people
bring up history issues from thirteen centuries ago, and above all how
we discuss the eternal Yu debate
_You_killed_us_more_than_we_killed_you_in_the_past_. Email them, but
have the *common decency* of not posting it in scy, because it is
improper, untrue and, above all, unjust.

Not that it is not possible for you to really understand the issues,
if you really want to. In fact, the best book that I have read about
Yugoslavia and its nations is written by an English lady. Rebecca
West: "Black lamb and grey falcon". Read that book. Read it many
times. Read it until you stop thinking about it, and begin to feel.
Everything you will ever need to know about Yugoslavia, is in that
book.

Sincerely,

Stanislav
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija)
Subject: Re: Emigrants and their political role in f
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:09:44 GMT

In article <92106.010738BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca writes:
...

>I have not acknowledged anything. How did I acknowledge it? When I said
>'You are very good at addressing the issue, Dragan' I meant that the
>issue being addressed was Krajina joining Serbia - Dragan took that posting
>and based on my sig (which says 'We're not giving up any piece of
>Croatian land') and told me that I'd forgotten to append 'Za dom spremni'
>(meaning 'For the homeland') and we're now debating who-said-what whereas
>it all started with Milan saying that Krajina will one day join Serbia!
>
>This whole thing is really, really ridiculous and assinine.
>
>Tom Grgic

	Mr. Grgic seams to confuse some things.  My remark was aimed at
his denial of the responsibility of proven killers - such as Miro Baresic, 
who belong(ed) - he is dead now, right? to extreme Ustasa group at that time
operating in various countries of Western Europe (most notably Sweeden and 
Germany, under the blessings of respective governments).  By denying their
responsibility, I thought you approve the ideas and methods of the Ustasa
movement, so I was sarcastic and implied that you would end your posting
with the Ustasa "greeting".
	It does not have to do anything with your standard sig, or with
Krajina seccesion from Croatia, OK?  I hope this helps, I would be in a
big trouble if I have to explain in even more detail, because this is as
detailed as I can imagine.

Dragan


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historia  Magistra  Vitae  Est
___________________________________________________________________________
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: How sez Tesla is a Croat?
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:41:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Apr9.184103.6647
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <16511@plains.NoDak.edu>, malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr4.160325.27585@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
|> >In article <92094.181200MALENOVI@NDSUVM1.BITNET> MALENOVI@NDSUVM1.BITNET (Nikola V. Malenovic) writes:
|> >B
|> >>    and Nikola Tesla, a Serbian-American who discovered the rotating
|> >>    magnetic field.
|> >>---------------------------
|> >>
|> >>share and enjoy.
|> >>Nik.
|> >
|> >Nik, I think it is even more appropriate that Tesla was a Serb from Croatia.
|> >;-)  ;-)  (from the Lika region I belive)
|> 
|> NO NO NO NO and again NO. You are worng Joe.
|> 
|> the right statement can be :
|> 
|> "Nikola Tesla is a Serb, who was born in the city that was given to Croatia
|> under KPJ and Tito regime, and note that those borders that were given by
|> KPJ and Croatian Tito were never recognized internationaly."
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmm, so are EC, USA, and another bunch of countries' recognitions something 
that you don't consider international?  And BTW, have you got any idea when
and why the Serbs on the Croatian ground migrated to those areas?  Correct
me if I'm wrong, but I understand they were runnug from the Turks and 
Austro-Hungarian Empire agreed to give them land if they would fight the
Turks and protect the empire. 

Secondly, Tesla was born before Tito and the communist rule, and still
he considered himself a Croatian Serb.  So something must be wrong with
your claim.
From: g9001190@cc.uow.edu.au (jiin jang tsai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: New York Times 15/4
Summary: go out
Keywords: butcher
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:04:17 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

The New York Times, 15/4/92
===Editorial===
 
STOP THE BUTHCER OF THE BALKANS
 
Slobodan Milosevic, strongman of Serbia and wrecker of Yugoslavia, may
not be as ruthless and reckless as Saddam Hussein. But his aggression
against the newly independent republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has
become just as blatant - and just as urgently requires a stern
response. Unless the international community acts aginst him now,
thousands may die.
 
The U.S. and European powers can do much to stop the slaughter: Refuse
to recognize Serbia's claims as heir to Yugoslavia, tighten their
economic embargo on Serbia and make clear that Serbs face years of
international isolation if they allow Mr. Milosevic to remain on the
rampage.
 
Even conscientious outsiders have grown confused and weary by the
ceaseless, complex civil warfare. But there's nothing confusing or
compelx about how much of it arises from the Serbian nationalism
whipped up by Mr. Milosevic, Europe's last Communist tyrant.
 
When the Iron Curtain came down, he rejected a confederation that
could have held Yugoslavia together. He resorted to force in a vain
attempt to keep Slovenia and Croatia from breaking away. And now,
ironically, the blue helmeted United Nations peacekeepers protecting
Croatia free his forces to attack elsewhere.
 
Now he has wheeled and lashed out mercilessly at Muslim-majority towns
in Bosnia. From the hillsides, Serb irregulars, backed by the Serb-led
remnants of the Yugoslav Army, indiscriminately blast round after
round into Bosnia's defenseless communities.
 
The multi-ethnic character of those communities is evident in their
skylines. The minarets of Muslim mosques and spires of Eatern Orthodox
and Roman Catholic churches stand side by side. Bosnia's people - 44
percent Muslims, 31 percent Serbs and 17 percent Croats - live side by
side.
 
In contrast to Mr. Milosevic's divisiveness, Bosnia's freely elected
leaders formed an ethnic coalition to try to hold Yugoslavia together.
They broadcast news free of the billious nationalism that poisons the
airwaves of neighboring Serbia. They moved to break free of a Serbian-
run Yugoslavia only after Slovenia and Croatia declared independence.
 
Stymied in Croatia and watching rampant inflation and stagnation sap
his popularity, Mr. Milosevic has aroused Serbia to yet antoher
dubious cause - defending Bosnia's Serb minority aginst a supposed
militant Muslim onslaught.
 
At home in Serbia, an increasingly vocal opposition resits Mr.
Milosevic and his bloody policies. They need the firm backing of the
international community. Once agian, the world has been slow to react.
The U.N. is just now dispatching more blue helmets to Bosnia. The U.S.
and the European Community have yet to send a strong enough message to
Mr. Milosevic: Get out.
 
===================================================
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Friday, 10 Apr 1992 11:08:35 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Emigrants and their political role in f
 <92098.184927BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
 <1992Apr9.135105.14713@risky.ecs.umass.edu>

In article <1992Apr9.135105.14713@risky.ecs.umass.edu>,
curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) says:
>>[stuff deleted from Tom Grgic's post]
>>Humbly yours,
>>
>>Tomislav Grgic
>>BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca
>>------------------------------------------------
>>"Sve se vraca, sve se placa. svaki stari dug."
>>------------------------------------------------
>
>        Maybe you forgot to put in your signature:
>
>        "Za dom spremni"
>
>$%^~@#&^~!$&^%~$,
>Dragan

You are quite good at addressing the issues, Dragan.

Regards,

Tomislav Grgic (BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca)

p.s. - How do you like this one:
----------------------------------------------------------
"Nedamo ni jedan pedalj hrvatske zemlje."
----------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: jovanovic-nick@CS.YALE.EDU (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: Re: JUST WONDERING . . .
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:57:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.161948.10966@husc3.harvard.edu> benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>
>	HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ THIS NEWSGROUP?
>

I scan scy quite often, but I have never been inclined to participate
actively.  I am here listening though (sometimes).  

-Nikola Jovanovic
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Culture, humour, etc.
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:32:57 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


  Andrej,


|               #XXXX      #/---`
|          ###XXX//  - -##= -   
|        ##XX///-` ` --  ##-        
|       ###XX//-    =     #/    -   -   
|       ###XX//- #        #=    =   =    ||
|        ###XX  |##-   / #X-          ==||
|         ##XX /(((#   /(()))))))))))|/
|         ##X|   |   #-/  |    |    ||=====)
|         ##X|   |   #-/  |    |    ||------ )
|          #||   |   #-   |    |    ||       | |
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||       | |
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||       | |
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||_______/)
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||=====//)
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||
|           ||   |   |    |    |    ||
|           \|   |   |    |    |    |/
|             ===|   |    |    |====
|                ===============
           

                ZIVELI!

Milan


>P.S.  This masterpiece is courtesy of Nikola Malenovic (malenovi@plains.nodak>
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: War Against Bosnia
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:48:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16789
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

In article <1992Apr14.125938.25351@risky.ecs.umass.edu> curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) writes:
>In article <16760@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>... 
>
>>c) (little bit irrelevant) with all respect and simpathy for people dies
>>from shooting in Sarajevo, I have to point out the fact that confuses me.
>>Since the rally that was shoot at, was holding Tito's pictures and singing
>>"Jugoslavija" (I suppose this mean they want to stay within YU, does it
>>not?), I must say that it is either Serbian population wishing to stay
>>within YU (as it is known) or if it was NOT Serbian population, then, who
>>the hack was asking to stay in YU? Muslims? Croats? WHO?
>
>	Serbia does not want Yugoslavia more than, say, Croatia.


but this is what CRO sources "zvone na sva zvona"?

was it?



>They are both trying to solve some "leftovers" from WWII, and WWI, and Tito
>and Yugoslavia were just in their way for about 50 years, or so. :-(

I agree that "svaki konj vuche na svoju stranu", but I do not understand why
it has to be so violent? I suppose if leaders got their acting straight two
years ago, have sit down at the table and said : OK, this is what we have
now, this is what it was 50+ years ago, now let's solve for what it is going
to be in the future. but no, those "mali carevi" did not want to loose the
inch of their power, so we have what we have.



>Dont be confused, it is all very clear,
>Dragan

Hm. I am glad it is clear to you, and appreciate the attempt to make it
clear for me, but you did not tell me who were those people shouting
"Jugoslavija" in Sarajevo?


"Muslims and Croats want independence" - that is what everybody are telling
me, right? "Serbs want to stay within YU" that is what everybody are telling
me. but then, if it was Muslim and CRO people who demonstrated then the
assumption that CRO and Muslims want independence is wrong. or if those
people were Serbs, then how come the snaipers were Serbs?

it is really wierd.

any explanations?


Nik
--
Three things are most perilous; connectors that corrode, new unproven
algorithms, and self-modifying code.
--