HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thornley@cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Errors (was Re: Robinson and Boyer)
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:01:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Apr13.180134.23390
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <18074@oasys.dt.navy.mil> kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat) writes:
>>[Discussion of errors omitted.]
>
>NUMBERS these are just numbers!

Yup.  How bright of you to notice.

>Even though I will be flamed big time for my next statement, I'm tired
>of this whole thing.
>
OK, go away.  I'm getting tired of these stupid arguments.

>Baseball is a GAME played by humans on imperfect fields (except for
>that evil turf stuff in the NL) <--flamable comment one.
>These fields are open to the arbitrary forces of nature, sun, wind,
>and rain.

What's to argue about this?

>It cannot be said that because of the equation:
>
>RFT*q/45+BBA/.999-H=VALUE of player A
>
At the risk of sounding over-clever, even if this meant anything, it
wouldn't, and even if it did anyway it still wouldn't.

>Sure stats can be fun, BUT they are not an exact science and neither
>is the game.

Again, how intelligent of you to notice.  However, I prefer baseball to
stats.  

>Nobody can tell me the full value of a player is in a bunch
>of numbers.

Nobody's trying to.  Except maybe for some of those folks who think that
Welch deserved the '90 Cy Young because of his "W" stat.  I'm not sure
about them.

>These are a bunch of guys playing a game, not robots on
>an assembly line.

I don't know about you, but I think the stadium is more fun than the Ford
plant.  I also can tell the difference between the two.

>We cannot find the total number of reject parts player
>A manufactures and in that number find his "value". <--Flamable comment
>two.
>
Oddly enough, this is exactly what we statheads have been saying in
this thread.  You can't measure the number of errors a player makes and
take this as his fielding value.  You do better by counting the number
of things a player does right.

>I fell better now that this is off my chest

Next time, just scratch.

David Thornley
"In a bad mood today"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: The Best in the A.L.
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 21:43:13 GMT

In article <cubsfan.703449089@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>
>>RP: Dennis Eckersley
>Bryan Harvey had better stats last year, and is a better pitcher in
>my opinion, especially because the Eck is on his way out, while Harvey
>is just entering his prime. With a winning team, Harvey could get 60
>saves

Sorry, it just doesn't work this way.  Yes, I *know* Thigpen got 65
save opportunities in 1990.  But that is an exception.  The White Sox
didn't have a strong offense, and so had an incredible number of small
leads.

It is quite possible that Thigpen's save record will stand for a
decade or more before a good reliever sees *that* many save
opportunities again!

I agree that Harvey is unhittable.  Unfortunately, he has also shown
himself capable of walking n batters straight for large values of n.
He didn't suffer from that last year at all; maybe he is over the
problem.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
"Red Sox all the way in '92!"	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Twins mired in losing streak.
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:43:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16868
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo

The Minnesota Twins are finding themselves in a loosing
streak, when they dropped 4 continous home games.
After loosing to Texas, 5-7 and 3-4, they were blown
away by the brewers 11-1 on Tues and beaten 7-4 yesterday.

Yesterday's loss was in 10 innings in spite of the Twins
out-hitting the brewers.

Now the  Twins go  on a tough roadtrip to face the mighty
Chi-sox.

s.h
----------------------------------------------------------
win or lose, forever Twins.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (The Econoclast)
Subject: If not Alfredo, who?
Organization: Social Science Computing Laboratory
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:26:50 GMT

The Blue Jay management has done some strange things with the SS hole
on the team. It seems they expected Zosky to become better than he is
when they traded away Tony Fernandes, and then they signed
Alfredo as a backup for Manny Lee.

So they made some mistakes. But what should they do now?

Suppose Manny Lee is injured or begins to play even worse than he has
played in the past. Should they start Alfredo? Should they call up
Zosky? Do they have someone in AA they can call up? 

Or should they try to make a trade now before they get even more
desperate? What are some reasonable trades they might make to fill
this hole?

-- 

  Regards,

  John Palmer      London, Ontario     Voice: (519) 661-3533     FAX: 672-4976
  reply to palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca    The Economics Institute for Journalists
  ============================================================================
  The New Economics: Overlapping Generalizations & Rationalized Expectorations
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Schilling/Grimsley, Cormier
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:03:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Apr4.214025.12365@m.cs.uiuc.edu> ksmith@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ken Smith) writes:
>Re: Magrane and Cormier
>
>Joe Magrane is not expected till late May; he is still getting the kinks out.
>Cormier got hit all over the place in Spring Training.  According to Joe
>Coleman, he did not come after batters with much confidence, so they sending
>him to Louisville for now.  According to the papers, Donovan Osborne will 
>be brought up to start the season as the Cards 5th starter.

Now comes the question, how is St. Louis going to explain dealing Ken Hill
instead of Cormier when Rheal couldn't even make the starting rotation this
year? I mean making it now is alot easier than it will be midway through the
season with Magrane probably back, Osborne ready(although he's already there)
and Milchin competing with Cormier to try to crack the rotation too. They gave
Cormier a spot and he lost it. I sure hope Gallarraga's spring means he might
be improved over last year(I doubt it though) or this trade is going to look
horrible. I have heard a couple of places that Hill had an excellent spring 
and Montreal just loves him.

It's good that Osborne is going to get a shot although he may need more timg
to work on his breaking pitches from what I've read. He's got better stuff 
than anybody but DeLeon on the staff and he's a lefty. He pitched very well 
in his last spring start against the Braves.     

.


Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"If this were at all legible, you would see what I'm talking about"

                            Chevy Chase in Fletch 
******************************************************************************



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dave@snitor.UUCP (Dave Till)
Subject: The Truth About The Boston Red Sox (was Re: For Jays fans only!)
Organization: The Yankees?  In First Place?  Weird.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:46:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.050653.24924@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>Face it, the Blue Jays suck!  They got a little lucky there for a
>while, but tonight their true colors showed.  They got their little
>blue asses whipped by Greg "I'm all the Yankees have to show for
>Rickey" Cadaret!
>
>What a shock!  I can only imagine the shame of 50,000 fans as they
>watched Todd "Beanball" Stottlemyre blow yet another early-game lead.
>And their disgust as the "potent" Jays lineup produced a mere two runs
>in the game against one of the worst starters in baseball.
>
>I can only imagine this shame because the Blue Jays fans, in proper
>Canadian tradition, had all fled the stadium by the end of the
>seventh.  Only the losers and the misfits were privileged to watch
>Todd blow the game.
>
>The McJays have seen their last of first place for this season.  From
>now on they travel to the cellar in the company of the Tigers.

Oooh!  Flame bait!  What fun!

Let me respond to Valentine's thoughtful and provocative posting by
analyzing the Boston Red Sox.  Asbestos suits on?  Good.  Let us proceed.

PITCHING:  The Sox mound staff consists of:
  One ace pitcher with a bad attitude who is being worked to death;
  One ace pitcher wannabe, ill-suited to the park, who folds down the stretch;
  A collection of prospects and suspects who, on genuine pennant contenders,
  would be hired to pitch batting practice for the AAA team.

HITTING:  The Sox offense consists of people who believe they are God's
gift to baseball because they can hit a wall 315 feet away with a favourable
wind.  (Look at their road stats, if you have the stomach for them.)

BASERUNNING:  The Sox idea of "aggressive baserunning" consists of scoring
from second on a double.  The last time a Sox baserunner took an
extra base was when Franklin Delano Roosevelt was president.

DEFENSE:  The Sox idea of defense can be summed up in two sentences:
"Don't worry.  We can get it back in our half of the inning."

MANAGEMENT:  Bwahahahahaha!  Red Sox scouts scour the country, working
day and night, to find slow players who grumble a lot.  These players
are rushed to the Red Sox as soon as possible.

Any rational, unbiased person must recognize the essential truths
contained here.  Red Sox fans, being neither of the above, cling to their
delusions like shipwrecked passengers clinging to flotsam as the great
tide of the pennant race sucks them to the bottom.

(For the humour impaired:  d:-)  q:-)  Let's play ball!)
-- 
--Dave Till, Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems, Sietec Open Systems Division,
2235 Sheppard Ave. E. #1800, Willowdale, Ont. (dave@sni.CA or dave@snitor.uucp)
"Whatever you do, Jerry Lee Lewis has already done it.  Probably better, too."
  --Jimmy Guterman and Owen O'Donnell
From: WELACK@MIAMIU.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Paul O'Neil
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:09:23 GMT
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

In article <1992Apr7.211112.11652@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
v083qpkr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Jeffrey C Toth) says:
>
>Does anyone know why Paul O'Neil was so low in the batting order?  I thought
>he
>was to be there power-go-to-guy when they got rid of Eric Davis.
>
             Because he can't hit lefties. He's batting higher against
           righties. If he doesn't start to hit left handers better, look
           for a platoon situation in right field for the Reds.
 
                         Bill Lack       GO REDS!!!!!!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (Bobby Heise, Inc.)
Subject: Re: Eckersley NOT better than Fingers
Organization: Somber Guys Inc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 19:14:39 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.181805.27478@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, glb50263@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gary L. Blickhan) writes:
|> jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (I) write:
|> >|> 77		14-13 3.53
|> >...including no-hitter
|> 
|> >[Illustrious career of Dennis Eckersley condensed:]
|> 
|> 
|> Including a no-hitter...  Does anybody remember the no-hitters of Steve Busby?

Kansas City, 1975.  Why yes.  Didn't Busby have both 20-win and 20-loss seasons
(not in the same season like Phil Niekro)  That argument is irrelevant.
There's a guy who disappeared off the face of the earth after a few really
promising seasons.

|> Who?   (you say).   Same with Eckersley.   You condensed "the illustrious   
|> career", forgetting to show us the Eck's truly illustrious 6-11, 4.something
|> ERA with Chicago...

Yeah, but you condensed the amazing walk to strikeout ratio of his relief days.

No question, Eck struggled while with the Cubs, and that Duncan and LaRussa
turned his career around in Oakland.  What I'd like to know is how many
potential 200-200 (or even 150-150 for that matter) guys there are in the
history of baseball (200 wins, 200 saves)

Stats please?  Some of the top career saves and wins guys in baseball.  Eck has
to be at the top of the list.  Kind of the Bobby Bonds (HR-SB) or Don Baylor
(HBP-Sac Fly) of pitchers.

Eckersley had a couple of fine years in Cleveland, one great year in Boston, and
several good ones.  Obviously he had lost some stuff (later found) enough so
that the Cubs gave up on him, but you can't help but giving the guy credit for
at the very least an interesting career.

Just look at the last four years of relief work alone.  I will still take them
over Rollie's four best.  How about the four saves in four games in the 1988
ALCS, and who knows how many in 1989 and 1990.  Much to the dismay of us loyal
Jays and Sox fans.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Lundy           Encore Computer Corporation, 6901 W. Sunrise Blvd.    |
| jlundy@encore.com   Mail Stop 811, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  33313-4499         |
| "You've got a new imagining coming, In Your Face." - Lei Wang		    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mattel@auto-trol.com (Matt Telles)
Subject: Re: Henderson vs. Ryan
Organization: Auto-trol
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:24:48 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.202357.3120@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>
>In fact, there's never been a period when Ryan was clearly dominant.  He's
>only won 2 ERA titles, 1981 and 1987.  The strikeouts and the no-hitters
>are impressive, but that's not the same thing as dominating, like a Koufax
>was.  
>
>It hasn't been that long ago that there was serious question about Ryan's
>qualifications for the Hall of Fame.  His amazing longevity have answered
>those questions, but it shouldn't be allowed to cloud the facts.  Ryan is
>clearly a Hall of Fame pitcher, but I certainly wouldn't rate him among the
>top all-time pitchers.
>
Of course not.  Nolan Ryan is a sensation with the fans and a marvel to behold
due to his longevity and, of course, the fact that he still throws hard after 25
years in the big leagues.

The strikeout totals and no-hitters will be enough to get him into the Hall.

Just a question, though, Sherri.  Not a flame, you understand.  If ERA is based
on the total number of *earned* runs given up and *earned* runs are based on the
number of *errors* committed, and you folk don't believe in errors (again, an
observation, not a flame), how can you believe in ERA?

It just seems strange.  On the other hand, I thank you immensely for all of the
nice numbers you provide.  Saves me a *lot* of time and effort of looking them
up myself.

Matt

-- 
==============================================================================
Matt Telles 	                 mattel@auto-trol.COM
                                 {...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!mattel
Auto-trol Technology 12500 N Washington Denver, CO 80241-2404 (303)252-2874
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Twins choke
Originator: rja@redwood26
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:05:46 CDT


In article <ku9jfjINNef5@girtab.usc.edu>, henze@girtab.usc.edu (William Henze) writes:
> Bottom of the 9th Grand Slam to lose the game.  Brings back all
> of those *fond* memories of my hero Ron Davis.  Guess the Twins
> won't win all their games this year...
>
> Haven't seen a box score yet.  I hope Smiley did OK.  He didn't exactly
> have a stellar Spring

You can't blame that loss on the pitching.  The Twins had 5 errors (it was
cold & lightly raining), including Gagne dropping a soft blooper to shallow
left with one out in the 9th (hit right in his glove an popped out).  The 
grand slam was 4 unearned runs.

Smiley pitched good, giving up 1 earned run (HR to Hamilton) and two 
unearned.

Fortunatly, David West is doing his Ron Davis impersonation in Portland.


The Twins won today, 3-2.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
From: prb@chinet.chi.il.us (Paul Botts)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: M Levine and Mark Jamison: Diamond Exchange
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:10:07 GMT
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX

Guys:
I got each of your entries for the Diamond Exchange, but am now unable
to get mail to either of you. It comes back marked "unknown host."
The addresses I have for you are

mlevine@perfect.fia.dmg.ml.com
maj1@ra.mcstate.edu

Are these correct? If so, is there some extra extension I need to add to
get from here to there (like .bitnet, or something)?
Please let me know ASAP, it will obviously be impossible for you to play
if I can't get mail to you.

Paul Botts
prb@chinet.chi.il.us
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Overshadowed By Fate Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Final Call for predictions...
Summary: Sorry, I was on vacation...
Keywords: Waiting for Sherri, Jonathan, and many others...
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:12:25 GMT
Organization: Ken Winkler's Scratch and Sniff Wildlife Collection

Here's the final call for predictions.  I am extending the deadline
until tomorrow, 8 Apr 92.  This is only because I didn't get a chance
to post last week due to a severe outbreak of vacation.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Urgh.

Once again, as official r.s.b martyr, and because Dave Kirsch shirked
his responsibility in handling all the awards after the season was
over, I am hereby sending out the call for predictions for the 1992
season.

Some ground rules:

Please be sure to put your actual name on the template.
When it comes to posting the
results, I don't like having to refer to someone as lundy@encore.com.
I prefer to just say Joe Lundy.

And the big ground rule: Please be sure your predictions follow this
exact template.  If your vote varies in format from that listed below,
my rather shaky software may not tabulate it.  So, please, follow the
template below.

Please do not include anything else except the below template in the
body of your letter.  I'll just junk it.

  Official rec.sport.baseball 1992 predictions for future embarrassment
-------------------------------CUT HERE----------------------------------
	AL EAST		AL WEST		NL EAST		NL WEST
1	BAL		CAL		CHC		ATL
2	BOS		CHS		MON		CIN
3	CLE		KCR		NYM		HOU
4	DET		MIN		PHI		LAD
5	MIL		OAK		PIT		SDP
6	NYY		SEA		STL		SFG
7	TOR		TEX
Name: Roger Clemens		Usercode: rclemens@jehovah.cy.young.edu
__________________________________________________________________________

Please use only the abbreviations listed here, and change the order to suit
your fancy.  So many people submitted stuff last year that I HAD to come
up with a better way of doing it than by hand.

Important: PLEASE include the header "Official Predictions for 1992" in
your mail.

Send all predictions to zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu.  Predictions
will be accepted until and including April 5th, 1992.  Accuracy suggests
that you might want to wait until a few more moves are made and rosters
fleshed out before you send yours along.  

Happy prognosticating, and may your team be picked to finish 5th or 7th
by the collective net.wisdom, thereby guaranteeing them a WS appearance.


7	

-- 
*    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
*   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
*  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
*    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (DAVID BONAR)
Subject: Re: Question
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-17774]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:08:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.023851.14451@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes...
> 
>The New York Times keeps reporting that the Yanks and ChiSox are close
>to a trade for Jesse Barfield.  Why?
> 
>The trade would be Barfield for minor league pitchers.  
> 
>Why would they want Barfield?  What can he do that Pasqua can't, besides
>a little defense?  What would they do with Pasqua then?

	Barfield would make a very good platoon with Pasqua.  He bats R and
has shown, in recent years, that he can still hit lefties very well.  And,
as you say, he provides defense.

	Of course, the W. Sox have too many outfielders as it is.  Unless
they plan on trading Huff or Newsome I can't see them really wanting another
outfielder.

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
Go Astro's  [motto: More Bang for the buck (but still a little short)]
__________

From: rodean@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bruce Rodean)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 03:52:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Royals mailing list
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Ft. Collins, CO.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

I've communicated privately with a few Royals fans here and there on the
net (Hi Dave!).  There is no mailing list as far as I know.  Of course
the way the season has started, maybe we should just go and hide.  At
least until they get back home.

Go Royals!...  Please?

Bruce Rodean
rodean@fc.hp.com
From: rrmst3@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Roberto R Molinari)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dodger Roster Move
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:31:55 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <ktvtsdINN97d@mizar.usc.edu> pcaster@mizar.usc.edu (Dodger) writes:
>The Dodgers made a somewhat surprising move today.  They place Jay
>Howell on the 15 day disabled list 

AAARRRGGGHH... Is this really true?  I just made an 8 player deal in my
rotisserie league last night and received Jay Howell to strenghthen my weak
pen and he's already hurt?  What's wrong with him now?  Is the DL retroactive?

thanks for any info,

bert
From: pokey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Vince Rhee)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Yankees...undefeated?
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:05:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fightin' Texas A&M Baseball!


After beating the Tigers last night, 5-1 (I think that was the
score), my awful-in-recent-years Yankees are a perfect 5-0 for
the 1992 season! Unbelievable.

Of course, they play the Jays on Tuesday, so perhaps I'd better
just enjoy this while it lasts...

Still holding out hope,
- Vince

------------------------------------------------------------------------
|      TTTTTTTTTTTTTT      Vince Rhee (Texas A&M '90)                  |
|      T     TT     T      Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering|  
|            TT            University of Texas at Austin               |
|    AAA     TT   MM   MM  Office : ENS 136   Phone : none             |
|   A   A    TT   M M M M  ===> Reply to : pokey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu    |
|  AAAAAAA   TT   M  M  M                                              | 
|  A     A   TT   M     M  "So we're *not* high and dry...?"           |
|           TTTT           "We could not even be said to be high and   |
|		       	       vigorously toweling ourselves off."     |
------------------------------------------------------------------------