HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: has ANYONE gotten Zmodem in TELIX to UPload OK to UNIX rz?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:23:37 GMT

Has ANYONE gotten a Zmodem upload from TELIX (or maybe some other PC
based terminal program) to work with a Unix rz program as receiver?

The behaviour I am getting strongly suggests these programs are not
talking the same protocol at random.  I can record the output from
"rz" and it looks ok, but TELIX won't send anything most of the time.

Sometimes it does send, but it sends about 16K bytes, then drops the
counter down to 1024.  It freezes there.

On a local BBS, it sends the 16K, drops to 1024, then does it over again
and drops to 2048.  I suspect it is sending too much or corrupting what
it sends after 1024 (with the BBS, the file will eventually be uploaded
OK with a throughput only slightly better than Kermit).

I do have CTS/RTS flow control on my modem (AT&K3).
-- 
/************************************************************************\
| Phil Howard,  pdh@netcom.com,  KA9WGN    Spell protection?  "1(911)A1" |
| "It's not broken... it's just functionally challenged" --Phil and Pete |
\************************************************************************/
Xref: sparky comp.dcom.modems:19783 biz.comp.telebit:1144
From: daniel@cse.ucsc.edu (Daniel R. Edelson)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems,biz.comp.telebit
Subject: Re: Anguish with T3000 settings
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:30:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ucsc.edu

In article <1jlh3jINN4ac@hp4at.eunet.co.at> paul@eunet.co.at (Paul Gillingwater) writes:

:i am getting a few critical comments for recommending the purchase of 5
:T3000 modems because they're pigs to set up.  I had a similar experience
:four years ago with Trailblazers.

:The problem is very simple -- they refuse to connect to certain V22bis
:modems, with or without MNP enabled.  It's a bit embarassing -- one of
:my colleagues has spent nearly two days working on configs.  We're using
:a fixed DTE speed, and I've successfully connected to high speed
:services (v32 and v32bis) with both MNP and v42bis.  I had it working
:with the 2400 modems that we call, but then my colleague decided to
:AT&F0 and start again, to make sure it was repeatable -- and now we
:can't get the T3000 to talk to *any* v22bis modem.  It just fails to
:sync.  What could we be doing wrong?

:Paul Gillingwater

Have you disabled error correction and compression while trying
to get this to work? I've found that the additional negociations
consistently confuse dumber v.22bis modems. You indicated above
that you were initially unsuccessful even with MNP disabled,
but it wasn't clear to me if your continuing woes were with
correction and compression disabled.

Also, be sure to lock the T3000 to V.22bis, rather than 
negociating its entire protocol suite.

AT
	S50=3	     // require V.22bis
	S180=0	     // error control disabled
	S181=1	     // use this with RTS/CTS flow control and port 
			locked, if not locked, use 181=0
	S190=0	     // redundant with S180=0





Xref: sparky comp.dcom.modems:19771 chi.forsale:2105
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:46:19 CST
From: <U58373@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems,chi.forsale
Subject:    *For Sale: Intel SatisFAXtion 400e 14.4k Fax/Modem (Brand new)

*** FOR SALE ***

Intel SatisFAXtion 400e 14.4K V.32bis Fax/Modem (External)
--------------------------------------------------

* Never been opened, still in original shrink wrapped box.
  (I got an internal for Christmas, don't need the previously ordered
   external)

* One of the top rated 14.4K Fax/Modems (see recent PC Magazine Review)

* Includes modem and fax software.

* 3 Year Warranty

* Current best mail-order price is $419 as of 1/13/92 per Clarinet Streetprice
  Guide.

PRICE: $350 obo (You pay shipping)

Contact me via e-mail at: U58373@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU

Michael Levine
Chicago, IL
--------------
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: BYTERIDER@EZINFO.VMSMAIL.ETHZ.CH (KELLER,CESAR WALTER)
Subject: Re: 4.1 Sportsters wanted
Organization: ETH ZUERICH
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:01:37 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <Jan26.043022.44594@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> kfason@lamar.ColoState.EDU writes:

> In article <1993Jan25.132212.2987@bernina.ethz.ch> BYTERIDER@EZINFO.VMSMAIL.ETHZ.CH (KELLER,CESAR WALTER) writes:
> >Hi, I'm looking for USRobotics Sportsters V32bis/FAX modmes with Supervisor
> >Version 4.1, new or used!
> Out of Curiosity can a Sportster v.32 be given the AT commands to turn it into a
> DS?

NO, it won't work with a V32 SPORTSTER.

-Cesar
 
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: umlavoi6@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tim Lavoie)
Subject: Re: Giving up on Supra
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:41:29 GMT

>
>I would not recommend this modem to ANYONE. Supra shot themselves in the foot
>as a company with this modem. And even though they might be killing in sales,
>they show by putting a product out like this that all they care about it the
>money. Obviously they care nothing for a quality product OR customer
>satisfaction!
>

Hmm... I bought mine on reccomendation from several other owners, all of
whome RAVE about them. I myself have had no hardware problems of any sort,
and what few questions I've had were promptly answered on the support BBS.
Hence, all rabid frothing aside, I'd have to disagree.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Lavoie - Computer Science, Year II
PGP version 2.1 public key available on request
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: dms50304@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Darkman)
Subject: Re: Digicom vs Supra - flames wanted
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:13:54 GMT

markp@cranham.cc.earlham.edu (Mark Pearson) writes:

>OK, we have decided to try out a Zyxel 1496 modem.
>Now for the comparison.
>I'm all for a Digicom Scout+. My boss is all for a Supra.
>The only major drawback to Digicom that I know of is that apparently if one  
>connects the telephone to the PHONE jack on the modem and the wall socket to  
>the LINE jack one cannot get the modem to dial a telephone number for one.
>Since I regularly use Info Select to dial my numbers and I need to have the  
>phone connected via the modem this is a major inconvenience. Any comments?

Haven't heard of this before...  I have an external and have a phone plugged
into it with no problems whatsoever. 

>A major advantage has got to be responses via comp.dcom.modems. I don't see any
>technical support for Supra modems that way.

Wolfgang is very good about diagnosing problems.  It's kinda nice to have
someone on the Internet who can answer your questions.  On a final note,
I have no qualms with my Scout+, it's a reliable modem.  Nice price on
it now too.

Disclaimer:  just a very satisfied customer
-- 
--- Daryn Sharp   Darkman@uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems,alt.security
From: wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht)
Subject: Re: Caller ID products?
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:19:27 GMT

davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen) writes: 
[in reply to dialback modems -wsr]
>  There's no absolute security, you just start at a locked room with
>armed guards, isolated power supply, magnetic shielding, and retinal
>print ID of users entering the room. Then you work down the scale until
>you get to something cost effective for your application.

If one is not interested in security then one wouldn't try to use a
dial-back modem to that end.  If someone is using a dial-back modem that
dials back on the same line then one is fooling themselves.  There
isn't any added security over the case were one just adds another
password to the login process.

>  Callback makes it *harder* to get access to a system, not impossible.

So does sticking a bandaid over your locks.  A burglar can't
manipulate the lock until the bandaid is removed.  Dial-back is just a
bandaid for modems.

>It keeps the person who gets a number and password from getting in.
>It means the cracker needs more info and expertise to get access.

They already have the number.  There is no added info needed.  Its the
same one that they just called.  They just have to call back.  The
added password is a benefit however.  One can get the added password
without the dial-back baggage.

>Rejecting something because it's not perfect is not something I
>recommend, unless you can get something better which is still cost
>effective. Doil-out only lines are a fairly large investment for the
>typical users who isn't being attacked by trained, dedicated, and
>well financed individuals.

One only needs one extra line - the dial in line.  It gets freed up
rather quickly.

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail:           39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: BYTERIDER@EZINFO.VMSMAIL.ETHZ.CH (KELLER,CESAR WALTER)
Subject: wanted: 4.1 Sportsters
Organization: ETH ZUERICH
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 10:12:54 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Hi.. I'm still looking for USRobotics V32bis/FAX (or without FAX) Sportsters
with Supervisor version 4.1, new or used

-CESAR, Zurich, Switzerland


Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Subject: Re: Can you lock DTE at 76,800 bps? Is that a valid speed?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:01:02 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <1993Jan24.202748.11731@netcom.com> wolfgang@netcom.com (Wolfgang Henke) writes:
>Larry Snyder (larry@trauma.rn.com) wrote:
>
>: For example, I get 160-180ms with 56 byte pings to my Netblazer on the
>: USR modems, but 190-205ms with the WB modems (v.32bis/v.42bis).  Both
>: numbers are obviously with no traffic on the leased line..
>
>Here is the modem which I recommend for latency critical applications: 
>the Digicom 9624LE+ series. It uses a very fast AD/DA. A reliable tester 
>found the ping latency to be 163 msec between a pair of modems on Silicon 
>Graphics workstations.

That's not far from the ZyXEL; I was getting right at 170ms ZyXEL to T3000
with 8-byte packets.  The T3000 - T3000 was around 190 for the same setup.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900]

Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: larry@trauma.rn.com (Larry Snyder)
Subject: Re: Can you lock DTE at 76,800 bps? Is that a valid speed?
Organization: Gator Communications - Feeds-R-Us 219-289-3745 
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:34:57 GMT

geoff@zswamp.UUCP (Geoffrey Welsh) writes:

>   USR may make fine modems, but don't assume that they're tops in any 
>particular category!  In particular, the fact that USR's top DTE speed is 
>57600 bps doesn't mean that there aren't any faster DTEs.  If I remember 
>correctly, Telebit's WorldBlazer will speak 115200 bps, though I'd normally be 
>the first to comment that it's drastic overkill.

You are correct.  I indeed wish the USR would support a DTE of 115kbaud.  
The v.fast upgrade will support this speed, but for some reason they didn't
include support for it in the current production modem.

The USR still offers slightly better throughput than the WB, as well as
better latency for interactive support, not by much, but slightly.

For example, I get 160-180ms with 56 byte pings to my Netblazer on the
USR modems, but 190-205ms with the WB modems (v.32bis/v.42bis).  Both
numbers are obviously with no traffic on the leased line..

UUCP throughput (v.32bis/v.42bis) is maybe 5% faster on the USR verses
the WB.  

-- 
Larry Snyder                                    internet: larry@gator.use.com
keeper of the Gator                                   uucp: uunet!gator!larry
From: jess@bally.com (Jess Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: novice ? about internal pc modems
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:37:20 GMT
Organization: Port Angeles Roughriders

With an external modem, the data goes out the uart on a com board to the
modem.

What happens with an internal modem?  Is there a uart on the modem card?
If not is there circuitry that performs the same function as a uart?
Could someone please explain to me how this works?

The reason I ask is because I need the capability of a buffered uart.  So
do I just purchase the appropriate internal modem or do I need to get a
com board with the 16650 on it?

I must use an internal modem.   Thanks
-- 
Jess Sullivan          jess@bally.com
Bally Systems          (702) 688-4411
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: umlavoi6@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tim Lavoie)
Subject: Re: Supra question
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 07:28:31 GMT

kfason@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Kevin Fason) writes:
>which register sets the delay of carrier loss to hang up?  I used to
>have my phone in the back of my SUpra, but now that I wanna use Silent
>answer w/fax I moved it and just split the line to the two (I livei n a dorm
>right now) and since the phone is not disconnected I need to see what register
>will set the delay so the modem will not hang up if me or somoene else
>picks up the phone accidently.  thanx!
>

You want the S10 register. The values range from 1-255 1/10ths of a
second. The default is 6, so change to 25 or so to give a couple seconds
to hang up again.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Lavoie - Computer Science, Year II
PGP version 2.1 public key available on request
From: john.navas@uttsbbs.uucp (John Navas) 
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: RE: GATEWAY TELEPATH MODE
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:39:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Transfer Station BBS, Danville, CA - 510-837-4610/837-5591
Reply-To: john.navas@uttsbbs.uucp (John Navas) 

jrd@cc.usu.edu (Joe Doupnik) writes:

 > If you are technically curious about this area then here are some
 > hints. Kermit is very careful about testing the serial ports for
 > UART-ness and proper IRQ. It turns out that the reason many well
 > known comms programs seem to work, and not all do by any means, is
 > apparently they do not test.  That is, a menu of port/irq values is
 > presented to the user and the selected numbers are used willy
 > nilly. I have not reverse engineered these programs but the
 > symptoms are as described. Add to this the need to hit some modems
 > between the eyes with a 2x4 (hard reset) and then speak to them
 > extremely s l o w l y (even typing ATDT at a slow pace on some)
 > during initialization. Imagine what the Bios does to them at boot
 > time. Some systems have a terrible time with stray interrupts so
 > Kermit's tests fail. These are all indications of, shall we say,
 > insufficient design effort and review, plus a probable attempt at
 > using a fancy slow chip to emulate an inexpensive fast UART and not
 > succeeding.  Add strangness on some AT setup sequences, a pinch of
 > machine configuration difficulties, shake but do not stir.  These
 > problems have shown up recently in force, so there is a common
 > factor amongst the many vendors. The basic Kermit serial port
 > operations have been successful for many many years, and still are
 > on quality modems. Thus the current crop have trouble behaving as
 > even a cheap UART.

<sigh>  The fact remains that most comm programs do NOT have problems
with the "current crop" of modems.  And where is it written that a
modem be able to accept any command sequence at the maximum speed of
the UART?  "Methinks the lady doth protest too much!"  <grin>

Best regards,
John
           
----
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The Transfer Station BBS (510) 837-4610 & 837-5591 (V.32bis both lines)|
| Danville, California, USA. 400+ MB Files & FREE public Internet Access |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: goh@sun330.snu.ac.kr (Goh Ok-Hee)
Subject: Where is FAQ ?
Organization: SNU,KOREA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 01:38:42 GMT


 Hello,
 Is there a FAQ document?
 If so ,Where can i discover it ?
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: oppedahl@panix.com (Carl Oppedahl)
Subject: Re: Skin your ZyXEL's LCD's face
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:17:03 GMT

In <1993Jan24.005449.18@camb.com> bruce@camb.com (Barton F. Bruce) writes:

>This may be well documented, but I havn't read it before.

>The ZyXEL LCD has a protective plastic skin that simply peals off
>when your thumbnail lifts a corner - leaving a much sharper image.

Indeed many consumer electronic products with displays do this.
I always peel it off since if I  don't, the plastic may get yellow and
the adhesive may get yucky, and the display may thus get harders to read.

-- 
Carl Oppedahl AA2KW  (intellectual property lawyer)
30 Rockefeller Plaza
New York, NY  10112-0228
voice 212-408-2578     fax 212-765-2519
From: mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us (Marc Unangst)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: Re: How to tell current speed on ZyXEL 1496E+
Date: 23 Jan 1993 15:33:39 -0500
Organization: The Programmers' Pit Stop, Ann Arbor MI
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us

In article <9301220356.AA2239@f723.n202.z1.fidonet.org> TYRONE_HORTON@p101.f701.n202.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>The only what to tell the current speed on a non-LCD model is to go
>into command mode.  During transfers, you can get some idea of the
>speed by the xfer rate.

Why not use tri-state LEDs for some of the indicators?  HS could be
solid green for 16.8Kbps, flashing green for 14.4Kbps, red for
9600bps, and off for <9600bps.  EC could be solid green for
V.42/V.42bis, solid red for MNP4/MNP5, and off for no EC.  Similar
tricks could be played with SQ to give more than a go-no go indication
for line quality.

Tri-state LEDs aren't *that* much more expensive than ordinary
single-color LEDs; I wonder why they aren't being used more widely.

-- 
Marc Unangst, N8VRH         | "Of course, in order to understand this you
mju@mudos.ann-arbor.mi.us   |  have to remember that the nucleus of the atom
                            |  is squishy."
                            |    -W. Scheider, from a Physics lecture
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: astalker@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Altan J. Stalker)
Subject: Re: USR modems..
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:54:49 GMT

In article <dmkasten.0578@redorc.chi.il.us> dmkasten@redorc.chi.il.us (Bowie Poag) writes:
>In article <1imhahINNqch@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ab016@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>(Scotty Meredith) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, Steven_Lam@mindlink.bc.ca (Steven Lam) says:
>>
>>>I notice that there isn't too many messages on here concerning US Robotics
>>>products.  Especially the Sporster and Courier v.32bis fax and dual standard
>>>fax products.  Is there anybody out there who use them?  Any comments or
>>>critisim?  I sell USR modems and would like to find out people's opinion on
>>>them.  BTW, I have a Dual Standard with fax and am VERY happy with it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I also, have a DS w/fax and LOVE it.  Worth evry penny!!
>>
>>
>>I have *NO* problems connecting with systems ran by Supra, Intel, Hayes or
>>USR modems whatsoever.  It is a GODSEND!!
>>
>>-- 
>
>

I could not be any more pleased with my USRobotics Dual Standard +
FAX.  Although I've never used the FAX, I can say the modem has a 100%
connection completion rating so far with calls ranging from local to
1,000+ miles! (At both 14.4 and 9600!)

It was a good deal also, as I got it in the trade-up program for $350.
My old USRobotics HST was 5 or 6 years old, so I'd gotten good use of
it too...

Altan J. Stalker
Indiana University
Computer Science Dept.
astalker@silver.ucs.indiana.edu


Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: howarth@med.uth.tmc.edu (Jack W. Howarth)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: Re: Zoom VFX v.32-bis eprom upgrades
Date: 21 Jan 1993 17:40:39 GMT

cma@eniac.inesc.pt (Carlos Antunes) writes:

>In article <1993Jan21.005419.8455@sj.ate.slb.com> poffen@sj.ate.slb.com (Russ Poffenberger) writes:
>>
>>I wonder if they would be willing to make to code avaialble in binary form
>>so that those of use with EPROM burning capabilities could make their own.
>>

>They won't! This new ROM is considered an enhancement, hence, it will
>cost money ($10). BTW, the enhancement is auto fallback/forward.

>Regards,
>Carlos Antunes.

>-- 
>Carlos Antunes @ INESC - Instituto de Engenharia de Sistemas e Computadores
>E-mail to cma@inesc.pt

   Besides that, the eproms are made by Rockwell so that Zoom couldn't if they
wanted to.
                       Jack

--
Jack W. Howarth, Ph.D.                      Univ. of Texas Medical School
Research Fellow                                            P.O. Box 20708 
Department of Biochemistry                           Houston, Texas 77225      
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: dscheide@iiic.ethz.ch (Daniel Felix Scheidegger)
Subject: Need help in programming a ZyXEL
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:52:04 GMT

Hi all,

i have to write an accplication, with works similarry to a voice answering 
machine. therefore, i want to play a voice-file to the ZyXEL. are there any
hints, how to do that, preferably code-fragments?
and.. aeh... whats this xon/xoff-thing anyway? :-)

thanks in advance for any help

Daniel

dscheide@iiic.ethz.ch
dscheide@impch.imp.ch
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: vds7789@aw2.fsl.ca.boeing.com (Vincent D. Skahan)
Subject: Re: scout+/16550/16550A ID
Organization: none
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:03:55 GMT

sarnold@andy.bgsu.edu (G. Steve Arnold) writes:

>	Also, has anyone else been able to boost the volume on
>the on-board speaker? It's *way* to f______ quiet. other than that, i've
>not had any major problems w/it except one board that disconnects me 
>and another that generates errors during uploads but i think that's the
>other end causing the trouble. I'm quite happy, especially if I've 
>got a 16550A, though I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it if I dont...

mine has the reported scratchiness and it's too damn loud, in fact it's
almost deafening to the point that I have to set M0 to shut it up.

I'd like to do the reverse, leave M1 set and have the volume on but
real low.

-- 
   ---------   Vince Skahan   ----- vds7789@aw101.iasl.ca.boeing.com ------- 
  Hypocrisoda - the diet soda you drink so you can have an extra piece of 
                 fudge without fear of gaining weight.
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
From: gerg@netcom.com (Greg Andrews)
Subject: Re: ZyXEL - GRRRRR! (ATI botch)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:47:02 GMT

wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert Wong) writes:
>
>From your message, I gather that it is very important that AT I or AT I0 return
>a numeric value.  Can you name at least one application that uses the AT I
>command (the product id code?)?  I was wondering what makes this particular AT
>command so important.
>

The Banyan Vines network software uses ATI0 together with a few other commands
to figure out which dial-in modem is connected to the server.  Once it knows
the modem type, it sends configuration commands to the modem, and waits for
calls.  If the server can't figure out the modem type, it won't answer calls
on that port.  You're S.O.L. for server-to-server file transfers, bridges
between networks, or dial-in access to the network.  You can set the software
to treat the port as a leased line, but then it won't sense disconnections
and won't auto-dial for you.

The most recent version of C-Kermit uses ATI0 for the same purpose.

  -Greg
(Telebit Engineer)
-- 
:::::::::::::::::::  Greg Andrews  gerg@netcom.com  :::::::::::::::::::
ObGuindon:  Roger Blunt has been saving newspapers most of his life.
            Later on, he figures to make some trees.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::