From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:38:41 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Jul22.203709.27148@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>: 
>: Actually, what I seem to notice is that almost every libertarian I know
>: is a white heterosexual middle-to-upper class male.  Why is this, you may
>: ask?  Because these people have never seen how terrible people can be
>: to each other.  Since they have never experienced bias, they do not see it
>: anywhere.
>
>You haven't met too many libertarians then.

No, I have.  There is one who is female, the rest are heterosexual white
males.  I know a lot of them.


>How are you
>so informed about what others have experienced in the way of mistreatment
>or bias?

I know many gay men who have been fired for being gay (I was one, my lover
was nearly another).  I know people who have been denied promotion for being
female, I know people who have been denied promotion for being black.

I can cite cases of almost every minority being biased against for who they
are, not what they do.

> Why do you think that middle/upper class (whatever those are)
>people are so braindead that they cannot read or experience or think for
>themselves?

Because I have communicated with many of them.


>: I find it hard to believe that an american business would pay women as much
>: as men if they were not afraid of a lawsuit (even with the fear of a lawsuit,
>: they pay them less).
>
>This is a cultural thing - it is changing. More and more businesses are 
>starting to pay, based on merit and performance, not on the persons sex
>or race or longevity with the company. There is a long way to go, but the
>process is happening, and it is not due to government mandate - no matter
>how much you would like to believe that it is. It is due to the changing
>perceptions of how people relate in the job market.


Do you believe that women would not be sexually harassed in the military
if the government did not say "stop it"?

>
>:                       I do not believe that all store-owners in the south
>: would sell to afro-americans if they had any way to avoid it.  
>
>And, why should they have to? Why should I be required to sell my goods,
>which I own until you pay me for them, to you if I do not wish to do so?
>There are others that will sell to you, if I do not - maybe I do not like
>"white monkeys" in my store. Now, if no one will sell to you, then you
>have a reason for complaint.

I am a minority.  There are not enough gay owned businesses in the united
states that I can take my business to them.  I have been thrown out of bars
in Detroit where the owner has said "we don't serve faggots here."  Not
worth pressing charges, but you bet your ass that if people thought they
could get away with it, they would.


>: The amount of hate that I see for being a gay man, in my day to day life,
>: convinces me that given a choice, many many people would be biased against
>: me.
>
>Certainly. They have a right to be - whether this hatred is reasonable or not.
>I think they are stupid to feel this way, but that is their choice. As long
>as they do not threaten to harm you, then they are free to be as unreasonable
>as they wish. You and I may not like it - but that is beside the point. What
>gives either of us the right to tell others what they may or may not believe?

Nothing.  As I said, your philosophy is wonderful from a theoretical point
of view.  However, the reality of the situation is people will be as hateful
as they can get away with.  Therefore, the people who are in the majority, and
in power, are the ones who will control all the resources.

>By the same token, you should have the right to be gay, and be as public
>about it as you wish, without threat of injury. As long as you do not attempt
>to force your sexual preferences on anyone else, then you should have the
>right to be free to practice them in any way that you wish.

There is a difference between a personal relation and a business relation.

However, libertarians have a hard time seeing this.


>: In an ideal world, libertarianism might work (just like communism might
>: work).  However, given the current situation with haves and have-nots, 
>: libertarianism would give white heterosexual males the freedom to return
>: to the exploitive days of the past.
>
>Possibly. It definitely could not be put in all at once. That doesn't mean
>that such would be impossible over a period of a couple of generations. 

If I see any reduction in the amount of hatred and bigotry in the world,
I would believe you.  Unfortunately, bigotry and hatred seem to be in
vogue.




FWA
Newsgroups: alt.activism