From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 08:13:52 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
: 
:   Whenever someone tells me that my Paganism isn't a religion, I feel pretty hurt.
: It sounds to me like not just an attack on what I call myself but also on everything
: I hold as sacred.

Hi Ciaran.

I think you still misunderstand what we have been trying to say. No one has
said that your Paganism is not a religion. That is for you to decide, and no
one else. However, by the same token, you cannot say that Paganism is a
religion (or a group of religions) for everyone else - that is for them to
decide.

:   Susan certainly hasn't said that my particular Paganism isn't a religion, she's
: only said that she wouldn't call my religion Paganism, and that Paganism itself
: isn't a religion.  Seems to me that Bill and some others feel the same way.
: 
:   I guess I'm ok with that, if you guys will please stop responding to my posts with
: "paganism isn't a religion".  It does sound to me like you're being pretty intollerant
: of what I call myself and how I worship when you continue to point out this
: disagreement.

No, we are only pointing out that your truth is not that of everyone else. It
may sound intolerant, but is not meant to be. Many pagans feel that religion
is only a part of their paganism. To some, religion has no part at all. That
has been my point, throughout the discussion. I don't think anyone is attacking
your beliefs, or how you worship. The disagreement has been with definitions.
As many people here are starting to realize - labels tend to be accurate only
as general descriptors. It takes a lot of modifiers to be precise.

I personally believe that to label paganism as a religion is to put too much
a limit on the beliefs/lifestyes of pagans.  

: Susan said;
:  >"The "paganism is/isn't a religion" argument is one that we have here
: >quite often.  That in part is why the response to your remarks was as
: >swift and as intense as it was."
: 
:   I see.  Yes, there do seem to be some battle lines drawn.  I'll try to be more
: sensitive in the future.  In addition, I'll try to be less sensitive to people who
: don't like me capitalizing words like Goddess, Pagan, and Paganism.

No one should object to your capitalizing such words. If they are proper nouns
to you, then certainly continue doing so. Please do not get upset if some of
the rest of us do not do so all of the time. 

:   The beginning of this thread was only my second or so post, so the intensity of the 
: response was very alarming.

Yes, it can be quite alarming when you are jumped on by a bunch of people. My
very first posting, several years ago, got strongly flamed. The flame was very
much justified and changed the way I look at a lot of things. 

:   In solidarity with all of the people who do feel as I do, excuse me whilst I define
: my stance in the argument of; "Paganism ... Is it a religion?"
: 
: Susan said;
: >"Um.  Okay, here we are back to the same semantic thing.  I agree with
: >you that you're pagan; I just wouldn't call your *religion* paganism,
: >even though it incorporates paganism into it.  To me that's like
: >saying a Christian's religion is monotheism."
: 
:   What religion would you call me then?
: 
:   For me to not be able to call my religion Paganism would be like someone who
: doesn't like being a Luthern anymore being told that they can't call themselves a
: Christian.

It is a problem. I expect that is why so many call themselves "eclectic
Wiccans" or "eclectic pagans" (an even more general term). That allows
them to avoid attempting to define for others what is, in essence, a
personal and "one-of-a-kind" religion.

:   Anyway, for me the Christian is to monotheism is as Pagan is to ? argument
: goes;

To me, they are ryegrass and oranges, so there is no really correct comparison.

:   Pagan is to Paganism as Christian is to Christianity

How about pagan is to Paganism and human is to humanity.

:   Christian is to monotheism as Paganism is to polytheism

This would be better stated as: Christian is to monotheism as pagan is to
polytheism. It is true, in a general sense. However, there are pagans who
are monotheists, as well as atheists.

:   Wiccan is to Paganism as Luthern is to Christianity

Once again, true in general. However, there are Wiccans who deny being pagan.

:   Buddhism is to Paganism as Bodhisatva Tree is to a Mirror Reflecting Nothing

No comment.

:   DISCLAIMERS:
:     Actually, the Paganism to polytheism is entirely variable.  There's lots of Pagans
:   who are, essentially if not in acknowledgement, monotheists.  I've also run into
:   lots of polytheistic Christians.

See my above comments. The best thing to do is not get too upset over labels.
Then you can argue over what they mean without developing ulcers or feeling
that your personal beliefs are being attacked.

... deleted comment on  ... MRN.

:   I accept fully that this is exactly opposite of the views of many people who call
: themselves P/pagan, and appreciate the people on this board who have pointed
: that out to me.  I'm glad this has been taken care of so quickly without it dragging
: on for eternity with my continual blundering on people's toes.

I am glad you have posted, and not left in a huff. It has allowed a couple of
thoughts I have had to gel. Hopefully, it has also helped you to look at things
in a little different way.

:   There.  Now I've gotten to tell everyone how I feel, and what's been hurting
: my feelings so much.  Hopefully this hasn't hit anyone's button or been interpreted
: as telling anyone else what they can or can't call themselves.
: 
:   If it has, well, drink some tea and read a good book and then write me in the
: morning and tell me how the crops are growing where you live.  We're recovering
: nicely from the June frost, but the corn in lower areas is still kinda scraggly.

June frost? Where the heck do you live? I don't think we had any past late
April, and even that was light.

:   I look forward to reading everyone's discussion of what they believe, hopefully
: augmented with some personal experiences or examples of how you've implemented
: your beliefs, and will endeavor to try to NOT get in the last word.
: 
:   Most of all, I'll try to not say anything which can be interpreted as a comment on
: the correctness of what someone else says they believe.

Bah - don't worry about stepping on electronic toes. They may deserve to be
stepped on. You have as much right as anyone else to question what others
believe. It certainly has happened to me often enough - and I beleve that I
have gained from such questioning.

Bill