From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.mud
Subject: Re: MUDs and Reality (Theory, LONG)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:05:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9212.17 e.v.


Rick Miller writes:

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) foolishly scribbles:
[...]
>A) The cyber realm seems to depend upon the NONcyber realm for
>its existence (but this cannot be proven), and

Uh, wrong...  Just flip *one* *switch*, and they're outta there.


Response:

Please explain who flips what switch and who is 'outta' where.

If you refer to 'proof' of a hierarchy I would remind you that
when you throw the switch from the 'object MUD' then we are
cut off from contact with a possibly remaining 'subject MUD'.

In other words, there is NO way to prove that the cyberMUD
goes away while we aren't there and the 'computer' which 'creates it'
has been turned off.  Likewise it is impossible to prove that
it IS there when nobody is experiencing it.

If you think that there is a way to prove this, I'd be happy to
hear about a scientific procedure.  In my mind it is an epistemological
issue which can never be resolved absolutely.  

A good example is IRC.  Without users, no #channels exist,
therefore the internet ceases to exist.  Or does it?  What qualifies
as 'proof of existence' for a MUD?  Who shall decide this when for
countless centuries we have been unable to decide this about the
'real world'??

I look forward to your response.


Rick:

>all other dimensions depend is logically the 'real'.  Plato
>claimed that the real world is the world of Forms or Ideas, and 

Plato also had a habit of basing long inferential arguments upon
premises which are now known (by every Kindergartener) to be false.
Go back and read his "Republic", but pay attention this time.


Response:

This is not very helpful.  You are suggesting the equivalent of
'go back and read _Tao Teh Ching_ and pay attention this time'.

There are many many interpretations of _The Republic_ as I thought
my posting displayed rather well.  Check out Alt.Magick's thread
on this (if you're able).  RPGs and books are applicable
in exponentially greater ways depending upon their ultimate coherency.

My understanding is that Plato is a cornerstone for Western Civilization
as we know it - i.e. that if you think you've out-thought Plato
(rather than simply expanded upon him), then you are surely
misunderstanding his subtlety.

Please explain why you think that Plato's reasoning was faulty
and give an example of it so that I can be convinced you are not
some air-head.  


Rick:

>The japanese 'tea ceremony' is an artform which has been developed into
>spiritual practice.  So are Chinese and Arabian calligraphy.  Martial arts
>in the East and West have grown along similar lines, and, while the martial
>arts of the East have seen greater popularity (being of the body), those of
>the West (called 'ceremonial magick') have integrated both Western
>and Eastern esoteric concepts as elements of their foundation.

Okay, *now* I see where you're coming from.  Man, you're screwed up.

You don't have to get addicted to MUDding to think about virtual reality.


Response:

This is hardly relevant criticism, nor is it very helpful.

Addiction is often a psycological malady which is not only difficult 
to define (and especially difficult to assess via computer lines), 
but is overly used by popular writers.  I suggest you stick
to the text of my model and either give it a useful review or
remain quiet on the issue.  You have no idea who I am or where
I've been.



Thyagi
----------------------------------------------
"At its root all language has the character of metaphor,
because no matter what it intends to be about
it remains language, and remains absolutely unlike
whatever it is about."

James P. Carse, _Finite and Infinite Games_