HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tij@phantom.cs.hut.fi (Tapio Johtimo)
Newsgroups: eunet.news.group,news.groups
Subject: Re: RfD eunet.aviation
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:25:19 GMT
Reply-To: tij@niksula.hut.fi (Tapio Johtimo)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <WOLFGANG.92Apr9105817@sam.first.gmd.de> wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de writes:
>This is a Request For Discussion on the creation of a new Usenet newsgroup.
>
>NAME:
>	eunet.aviation

>	Comments are welcome and should be posted to News.Groups.

You can count my vote for YES. Although many aspects of flying and
things related are covered in Rec.aviation, I would like to hear how
things are going in Europe as well. And anyway, Europe (north) is
where I am flying.

>Wolfgang Diestelkamp
>wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de
>diestelkamp@kmx.gmd.dbp.de

			Tapio Johtimo
--
Tapio.Johtimo@HUT.FI
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:44:48 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <9363@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk> imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain
McCord) writes:
>
>  If manga == japanese comics 
>then r.a.c.manga == r.a.c.japanese.comics.
>
>Seems a bit redundant to me :-)

I think most of the people objecting to rec.arts.manga would be
perfectly happy with rec.arts.comics.japanese, which eliminates the
redundancy.  On the other hand, I get the sense that, given a choice
between the two, alt.manga readers would prefer rec.arts.comics.manga
to rec.arts.comics.japanese.  I could be wrong about this, of course,
and I would just as happily vote for rec.arts.comics.japanese if that
showed up on the ballot.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
From: wolfgang@sam.first.gmd.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:28:53 GMT
	<6351@lib.tmc.edu> <292R0248c7Lw00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
Reply-To: wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GMD-FIRST, Berlin
In-reply-to: ikluft@uts.amdahl.com's message of 12 Apr 92 03:11:18 GMT

In article <292R0248c7Lw00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> ikluft@uts.amdahl.com (Ian Kluft) writes:
>   >Geoff Peck's netiquette posting specifically discourages this. I would suggest
>   >a reply flame (via email) to the miscreants, and then ignoring them. I'm sorry
>   >that there are people who would drive others away from this group because of
>   >their nationality. [...]

>   Agreed.  I had no idea people were doing this to Lars-Henrik and others of our
>   European net.friends.  What's been described here is very poor netiquette.

It does happen, also to me. And I'm convinced that more European lurkers would
post to a more local forum than to this worldwide r.a. This of course would
not keep us from posting to r.a (by us I mean those who even now just disregard
the flames).

--
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de
diestelkamp@kmx.gmd.dbp.de
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:58:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <ku9bn2INNfv6@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>
>Looking at the header, this appears to be a reply from Lazlo's summary that
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>he posted to r.a.comics.  


If this assumption is not true, I apologize.  I've been disturbed by that
crosspointing to the point that I keep on thinking any new input might
be due to it.  Again, my apologies if my assumption was wrong.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Date:  9 Apr 92 01:45:22 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
 >    I see we now have someone else who seems to feel that he can speak
 >for the entire readership of alt.manga.

He does.  There was already plenty of talk about naming the new group
on alt.manga; the consensus was that rec.arts.manga was by far the
most desirable.  Were you there?

 >And if you think that you will
 >feel bunched in, then I feel sorry for you.

Nah, I don't think you were.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:20:38 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <axolotl.702903832@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>Isn't Star Trek and Dr. Who in its original form "still a type of TV
>show"?  Why aren't they under rec.arts.tv.?   (Yes, I know, and it
>applies here too.) That's another precedent we'd have to break.

Like hades (and others have said) poor choices in the past are no excuse
for stupid decisons today.

ie: Star Trek groups. They would clearly have a place in a rec.arts.sf.*
hierarchy. But they already existed in another name space and re-naming a
group is a pain in the ass that is often voted down. (they don't belong in
rec.arts.tv.* because discussion of Star Trek movies would become
homeless).

Dr. Who is a tv show and could go in rec.arts.tv.* or rec.arts.sf.tv.* one
is more specific and that makes it a more desirable. It seems to me that
pointing out these anomalies only hurts your arguments.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
_______________________________________________________________________________
     "Are you sure?"      |           "That's a lot of money for a head!"
 "Yeah.  Sure I'm sure."  |                        -The Ugly
From: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.arts.dragonlance
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:38:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44069
Reply-To: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Organization: Purdue University



URK????

Where on earth will the traffic for this come from???

I've been reading rec.games.frp and rec.arts.sf-lovers/rec.arts.sf.* for
a few years and have seen nearly no traffic at all on dragonlance anything.
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:30:22 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
> >    You know, this is one of the biggest reasons why splitting
> >rec.games.frp hasn't worked in the past. People seem to think that the
> >name has some intrinsic value that is passed onto the group

>It does.  That's the whole idea of naming things.  That's one
>of the reasons we have newsgroups at all.   If you don't think
>names have any "intrinsic value", why the hell are you telling
>manga readers what name their group should be?

    For organizational reasons. The name of the group is important. Its
place within the sub-hierarchies of UseNet, however, isn't IMHO supposed
to transfer any kind of ranking of groups. The hierarchies exist to make
it easier for readers and news admins to interact with UseNet.

> >rec.arts.manga isn't efficient IMHO.

>Yeah, in your "HO", but why isn't it?  I've already shown that it's
>far better than the alternative.

    Have you? In what way is r.a.manga more efficient than r.a.c.manga?

--
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 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:08:55 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <scs.702767100@hela.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
>
>A few years back there was active manga discussion in rec.arts.comics.
>When alt sprung up, the manga group there drew off most of the discussion.
>My impression was that the manga folk left because they didn't want to
>have to slog thru the non-manga topics, not that they were offended by
>the association with comics.

I wasn't aware of this, but if it happened a few years back, it couldn't
have been alt.manga that drew them away since alt.manga is only a few
months old.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
From: jka@math.ufl.edu (Jon K. Akers)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:08:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue-ton.JKA.92Apr5190854
	<frnk.702331316@cs1.bradley.edu> <1992Apr5.103454.16923@ms.uky.edu>
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Florida Department of Mathematics

In article <1992Apr5.103454.16923@ms.uky.edu> kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) writes:
   frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:

   >   Now, for a review. I have not seen a large dispute about the group's name
   >(rec.music.enya)...

   Hopefully this will start one :-)  Personally I don't like the idea of
   groups devoted to individual artists, and will probably vote against the
   group on that basis.  But if we are going to have such groups, we should
   create a sub-hierarchy, eg "rec.music.artists" to contain them.

I agree to this, and although I would not vote against a
rec.music.artists.enya or a rec.music.artists sub-heirarchy I would
vote against rec.music.enya. 

   -- 
   Kenneth Herron                                       kherron@ms.uky.edu
   University of Kentucky                                  +1 606 257 2975
   Department of Mathematics
						 Flame early, flame often.
--
###########################################################################
#  Jon Akers                      "...realize you're living in your       #
#  jka@math.ufl.edu                golden years..."                       #
#  SILVERFIRE%oak.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu                               #
###########################################################################
#  Try MudDog mud at mud.math.ufl.edu 2000 (128.227.168.2)	    	  #
###########################################################################
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:59:55 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:
 >If you can't write a charter that makes it clear that manga is NOT a comic
 >then you really have no place insisting that it isn't.
 >It is or it isn't, if you can't prove that it isn't then it is.
 >
 >I understand allright. The only way that rec.arts.manga supporters can
 >describe manga is by calling it a comic.

I'd describe it as a sequential art form, like magazines, books,
films, and art exhibitions.  If news.groups thinks the charter is
sufficiently vague, we'll be happy to change it.

Please send email if you don't think this is a good idea.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: gt9405b@prism.gatech.EDU (Lord Goodgulf the Ma-a-a-agical Wizard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Yet Another Mud Reorganization Proposal
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:08:39 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


     I neither support nor oppose a split of this group, however if you're
trying to split it to reduce signal to noise, I think you're going to be
sorely disappointed.  There are two ways that I can see to do it.  One is
to change the way we think so that none of us are interested in throwing
"noise" into the net.  The other is to moderate the groups (which I notice
at least one in the proposal was).  Good luck on the first, especially since
you'd need to decide what was "noise".  The second I will oppose completely
and I would imagine (and hope) that there are quite a few out there who
agree with me.  Moderating a newsgroup will never improve it and nobody has
or will convince me otherwise.  The whole point of these things (or so I've
been lead to believe) is to exchange ideas, not approved ideas.  And as soon
as you reject a post for one reason, it's all too easy to rationalize another
and another until there's almost nothing left.
           Lord Goodgulf the Faerie Monk Without A RealmsMUD *sigh*

-- 
Lynn Richard Akers                                                              "Her name was Cind.  She was very, very young and very, very lovely.  It was
that special kind of beauty that grabbed at the heart through the loins.  Cind  was also one of the most highly regarded practitioners of that supremely lethal
art--sniping."    Allan Cole and Chris Bunch, The Return of the Emperor         uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt9405b
Internet: gt9405b@prism.gatech.edu
From: mccombt@cs.rpi.edu (Todd McComb)
Subject: Re: sci.anthropology (LONG) (long response, too)
Organization: Rensselaer Mathematics Dept., Troy NY
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:00:12 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.162918.25461@lgc.com> Cameron Laird writes:
>In article <yz0tb8l@rpi.edu> I write:
>>You expect us to believe that those things are directly related to
>>science (or the absence thereof) rather than individual maturity?

>What point are we discussing, now?  I sure thought I
>understand Mr. Roller's comments, but I didn't react
>to them as you did.

I was demonstrating my own lack of maturity by flaming on news.groups.

More seriously, I certainly agree with the presumed intent of Mr. Roller's
post, but attributing everything good in the world to science really
makes my blood boil.  It's bad enough that any "serious" discussion
group practically has to go in the sci hierarchy to maintain some
credibility (not that sci.anthropology is the wrong name in the given
context.)

>I like examples.

>Is there some succinct way to make clear the dif-
>ference between (a)-(d) and (e)?  Neither "science"
>nor "maturity" seems effective with some readers.

Honestly, I think you have stated the only effective way above.
By example.  If enough posters are writing in styles (a)-(d),
the people writing in style (e) will eventually feel self-conscious.

>Incidental remarks:  the overratedness of science
>would certainly be a fit topic for sci.anthropology
>discussions, either in terms of the relativism of
>"ethnoscience", or as an investigation of the method-
>ological grounding of ethnography.  And "I [too]
>spent a substantial piece of my life to get a phd in
>applied math just to be able to make [such] state-
>ment[s] as an insider."

Well, I like the sound of that.

And that's more than enough soap-boxing from me.

-- 
Todd McComb                             mccombt@turing.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.1.1]
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:11:40 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:
> >>Unfortunately true. Else there wouldn't be a need for all these follow-ups.

>hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
> >    This is a very true statement. But this is the way UseNet works.

>It's also the reason why Usenet remains a crude, inflexible email
>broadcasting network, where any sensible change has to be put through
>pointless bureaucracy, like this.

    No one is forcing you to read UseNet news. If you have problems with
the way things work, as many of us do, then talk about it. Suggest ways
it could be improved. Otherwise, you should think about devoting your
time to other pursuits that are more to your liking.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:49:16 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <fspj43m.albertw@netcom.com> albertw@netcom.com (Albert
Wong) writes:
>hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>> People seem to think that the name has some intrinsic value that is
>> passed onto the group, when it is just a name.
>
>And you mention that a name doesn't have any intrinsic value, so
>what's wrong with rec.arts.manga?  It's just a name, ya know. ^_^

You're misinterpreting this.  A name does have intrinsic value, as an
index.  That is why I prefer rec.arts.comics.manga: I think it is much
more useful as an index then rec.arts.manga.

A newsgroup name has no intrinsic value that is passed on to the
group.  This is why people who talk about what position in the
hierarchy a newsgroup "deserves" are misdirected.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
From: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.frp.misc
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:14:19 GMT
Reply-To: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Organization: Purdue University



I consider *.misc to be a poor idea for one reason:  The general level of
stupidity in the net reaches astronomical levels during a newgroup vote,
and people would actually be offended by being "lumped" into a *.misc 
group.

If you do put it on the ballot, put it last.
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:04:19 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <ku6bbjINN5vp@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

>I still don't believe one is a subset of another, why should I support you?

'scuse me? You are the one advocating a group. Hades doesn't need your
support, you need his. If rec.arts.manga goes out on a CFV and there are
still enough people who are convinced that rec.arts.comics.manga is better
the vote will fail.
What you believe is not the point, what you make others believe is. You
get ONE vote, they get ONE vote. If they vote no you have a problem.

Yours is the first post in this thread that has seriously tried to address
the question, "why isn't manga a comic?" More posts like this are required
if you want to proceed with r.a.m instead of r.a.c.m at the end of the
discussion.
You also need to propose major changes to the wording and vocabulary in
the proposed charter in the original RFD as it consistently refers to
manga as a 'comic.'

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business

       "Economic deprivation makes freedom less relevant to a people."
						-Paul E. Tsongas
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: National University of Singapore Dept. of Computer Sc.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:41:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.164518.27604@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes...
>The group is currently focused on American and British comics, but I
>know of nothing in its charter that constrains it this way.  Manga are
>within its purview.  "Comics", as used in the newsgroup name, properly
>covers all of the "sequential art forms" people have been discussing.
>Putting manga in rec.arts.comics.manga would, in fact, make this
>clearer, as far as I'm concerned.

Certainly nothing in its charter constrains its discussion to Western comics.
However, that is how it is being used. Therefore the word comics used here
does refer to Western comics.

>My mind is always open.  That's why I'm continuing the discussion.

Then you would not make the statement you did. Perhaps a more appropriate
statement would be - "Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I will vote NO"?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: why do we have no votes?
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 22:19:23 GMT

In article <Apr.13.02.34.18.1992.23615@dumas.rutgers.edu> hedrick@dumas.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:
>I notice that soc.religion.mormon has failed.  I'm worried that this
>failure is an abuse of the voting process.  [...]

Yes, we know, Chuck. So are you going to suggest we simply get rid of NO
votes again? Last time you managed to bury a lot of good reform proposals
in bickering.
-- 
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From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: why do we have no votes?
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:42:55 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

So when people like Iain Sinclair come along with totally bogus and
off-the-wall ideas about namespace organization, the rest of us have
some sort of mechanism to keep things under some tiny modicum of control,
that's why.

>...I'm concerned,
>based both on the discussion here and on seeing who cast some of the
>negative votes, that people voted against it because they dislike
>Mormon ideas.  If so, I believe that's an abuse of the voting process.

That may be so.  But there isn't the slightest evidence to that effect,
and without the NO vote what little organization we have will go to hell
in handbasket in a big hurry.  For an object lesson in the evils of giving
anybody who wants a newsgroup whatever he wants, take a look at the "manga"
thread.  There exists no greater argument in favor of NO.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Xref: sparky news.groups:10363 rec.music.misc:14353