HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: berger@atropa (Mike Berger)
Subject: Re: Jewish summer camps (Was: Hebrew school)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:41:28 GMT

backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>Has anyone ever considered the impact of Jewish summer camps (Orthodox,
>Conservative [like Ramah], and Reform) on Jewish practice and affiliation ?
>In my old community (Springfield MA), the Hebrew school made strenuous efforts
>to convince parents to send kids to Jewish summer camps. The great majority of
>kids that spent their summers in an experiential Jewish atmosphere did continue
>their studies and did express a stronger bond to the Jewish community.

>Even I, who was brought up in an Orthodox home and went to a day school, got a
>lot out of Jewish summer camping.

>Perhaps Hebrew schools could sponsor a Shabbaton every few months.  Maybe this
>experience could motivate kids.
*----
Hebrew School was never a motivating experience for me, so that would
have been absolutely the wrong approach to get ME into a jewish
summer camp.
--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:12:48 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Aug11.184529.26834@uc.msc.edu> saroff@msc.edu writes:
>
>This is evil.  We as Jews are supposed to pursue justice.  

    That's right: pursue justice, not do good.

>
> + That Croats were evil in the past, does not permit us to allow
>   injustice to them now.  To be frank, we owe nothing to any
>   European out of love. ...

    You're making my point: doing good to our past enemies makes
    us forget our past friends.  The truth is that some European
    nations have treated us better than others, and we shall never
    forget that.
>
> + To just look at things only in term of is it good for the Jews
>   is not enough.  Is it going to help justice is also important,
>   unless we wish to be a nation like any other nation.

    If we want to be like every other nation, we should take
    care of ourselves first, our friends - (close) second,
    and do justice to our enemies ...
...


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Reform law versus guidelines
Summary: What did God say, and what did man say?
Date: 16 Aug 92 21:11:08 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug16.032500.14142@midway.uchicago.edu> clmn@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <56954@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

			........................

>>Even in the section on kashruth, there are statements which presumably
>>were according to the rather poor biological observations of that time,
>>but which we know now to be false.  I claim that this necessarily should
>>cause one to question just what was from God, and what was tribal taboo
>>or based on similar grounds.  There is no other information on this, so
>>we have to use our own soul-searching, and our own attempts to communicate
>>with God, to help arrive at what is wanted of us.


>I completely fail to understand Herman's post.  Far from disagreeing with
>me, he seems to be confirming exactly what I said, which was that the ONE
>reason for observing kashrut which the Reform will NOT accept is: G-d said
>to.

I suggest you read the words I wrote.  You are correct in saying that at
least some Reform Jews are unwilling to accept that these are the words 
of God.  I do not consider it surprising; one has to reconcile the words
of the Torah with the words of the Torah and the evidence which God has
left for our eyes in the bodies of the animals and the fossils in the
rocks.

I personally cannot accept that God commanded that these precise words
be written.  I am willing to concede that at least most who produced the
words believed them to be the words of God, but that does not make them
the words of God.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Can of Worms
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:50:53 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

Sheldon Ackerman responds to Barry Elin
 
BE> SA>SS> "technically" a goy, I ask who are you to "decide" that only
BE> SA>SS> your sect
BE> SA>SS> knows how to define who a Jew is?  Also, who gave you
BE> SA>SS> monopoly control over
BE> SA>SS> our religion (in fact, don't you represent barely 10% of the
BE> SA>SS> worldwide
BE> SA>SS> Jewish population; that's hardly a controlling interest)?
SA> What do percentages have to do with it? If 90% of the Jews intermarry
SA> or eat bacon, it makes it OK? If the majority of individuals are on 
drugs,
 
BE> then who are we to make drugs illegal?
 
BE> And Medical doctors represent only 2% of the population,
BE> should we say the other 98% should determine who is a doctor?
 
My point is simply that religion has nothing to do with percentages.
---
 * Origin: WORLDS LARGEST strictly JEWISH BBS - (718) 756-7201 
(1:278/610)
From: jis@panix.com (Jack Szwergold)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: PApartment Share Wanted in NYC
Keywords: Apartment, Share, NYC, Cheap
Date: 23 Aug 92 11:54:38 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC


 
Apartment or share wanted in NYC/Brooklyn vicinity.....
-------------------------------------------------------
 
I am currently looking for an apartment or share within Manhattan or Brooklyn.
(Price range can be up to $500)
 
I am a 24 year-old SJWM, non-smoker, with no pets, who has a
full-time job and is extremely responsible.  I would be able to
move in as soon as early September.
 
Please leave me E-mail at -jis@panix.com- with a number I could reach you, or
the interested party at.  
 
ANY AND ALL HELP WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATED....
:)
 
Jack Szwergold (jis@panix.com)
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: The term "galut"
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:06:09 GMT

In <1992Aug17.171952.6586@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:

>In other words, in the Orthodox view, we are all still in "galut", no
>matter where we live. 

There's galut and there's galut.

Personally, I say chutz laaretz, except to my friends who used to put
"galut" on the letters they sent me from Israel while I was in New
York.  Guess where they live now.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish apple.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is not all that hungry.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman)
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Reply-To: clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Department of Economics
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:31:33 GMT

In article <2446@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>
>Don't you people realize, I can post articles all day long insisting
>that each and every one of you must vote for Kibo for president, and
>you still get to decide for your self what to do?
>-- 

Who or what is kibo?


-- 
Bill Coleman
clmn@midway.uchicago.edu
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:22:10 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <56990@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>IF the person is not endangering others, we have the moral right only
>to attempt persuasion.  What gives you the right to tell them what is
>good for them?  Even if they know that it is likely to shorten their
>lives, but they believe it will help their souls, you do not have the
>moral right.  THIS is the principle of freedom, and it is no accident
>that the Reform movement was started as a result of a realization of
>the rights of man.

There's a difference between forcing your groups beliefs on outsiders
and forcing them on insiders.  I would agree if you meant
proselytizing non-Jews, but there is nothing wrong with Jews trying to
get other Jews to be more Jewish.  THIS is Judaism, which has never
esposed personal freedom as a cornerstone of its religion, unlike the
USA.

>And furthermore, what if you are wrong?  We now have the situation in
>which government agencies are imposing their judgment, even when there
>are many scientists who hold otherwise, to decide what we can and cannot
>have.  It is quite possible that these government agencies have caused
>hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of deaths, and considerable
>suffering.  Until recently, the individual as an individual had no rights.
>The early law codes only slightly limited the power of the authorities.

This isn't a government agency.  This is religion.  Government has no
business in religion, and you're stating total non-sequetors.

>The greatest immorality of all is to impose one's morality on others.

But there's nothing wrong with imposing one's morality on yourself.
Or on your own group.



-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:04:33 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug11.200659.7029@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <56211@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>>I agree that Orthodoxy is the carrier of a tradition.  But tradition
>>is not religion, and religion is not tradition.

>Yes, but you really can't separate the two.  They're like two cords
>woven together into a rope.  You can't separate them without
>destroying the whole.  Judaism is a closely-networked mix of
>tradition, philosophy, religion, art, music, etc.  Each facet that is
>removed brings the rope that much closer to breaking.

>The Rabbis realized this when they said that a tradition which is
>accepted by Israel for long enough becomes like a law.  This is why
>some "traditions" like wearing Yarmulkae are treated like commandments
>these days - the tradition was widely accepted for a long enough time
>that it should now be treated as a law.

This is what stultifies anything.  Not only can one separate the two,
one must.  As I stated in an earlier post, one can take the Jew from
the stetl, but can one take the stetl from the Jew?  Ashkenazi Orthodoxy
is based on the stetl.

As for traditions becoming laws, the advancement of science is due to 
nothing short of mathematical proof becoming established so that it 
cannot be overturned, and often without too much difficulty.  Knowledge
is always incomplete, and even the greatest are necessarily ignorant.
Newtonian optics was completely abandoned, not because those arguing
against it were greater, but because they showed it was wrong.  Newtonian
gravity actually was disproved where Newton suggested that one should look
for the disproof.  

For Judaism to get out of the Middle Ages, it must take the point that
not only is tradition not law, but tradition cannot even be used as an
argument for law.  Science got out of its rut by overthrowing the 
"scholarly tradition," whereby the great philosophers of the past 
were considered unshakable.  This is exactly what has been posted
as a basis for the hierarchy of our sages; the earlier cannot be
overruled by the later, except by referring to early ones.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:44:10 GMT
Organization: KESHERnet International - Dallas, TX

In article <1992Aug13.044258.26314@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>
>Now, what is the minhag in this case?  My son (age 16) is at an 
>Orthodox service where most of the community observes the "no
>tallit until marriage" minhag.  


At this point, it becomes not which community he is VISITING, but which community he LIVES in!

For example, before I was married I attended an orthodox shul which had a minhag
of no talis for a male unmarried.  MY custom, being Ashkenazic, is that we are
to wear a talis after bar mitzvah.  So, I was the only male who was unmarried
and wearing a talis.

Simple, nu?


-- 
| Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
| KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
| The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
| Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Egg Creams (was Re: Proof of the Decline and Fall)
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:13:36 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug20.231032.503@cs.ubc.ca> davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein) writes:
>There's a company on the SF peninsula called "Seltzer Sisters" who
>will deliver bottles of seltzer to your door (they collect the empties
>for reuse).  Far superior seltzer to what you can make with a soda
>siphon.  My parents go through about 6 in a week (more when I'm
>home!).  They'll also deliver knishes and other goodies.

Do they deliver to NJ?  (just kidding!).  I think there's a vendor
around here, but I've never bothered to locate them.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Should a jew settle in Israel?
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:58:35 PDT

In article 24075@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>>>>>>>What about you, do you think there is any importance for a jew to live
>>>>>>>>in Israel?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You are asking the wrong person. However I will be honest with you and tell
>>>>>>>you my opinion. If you ask the question "Does a Jew have the right to live
>>>>>>>in Israel?" I would answer "A Jew have the right to live anywhere in the 
>>>>>>>world and so does anyone else". As far as is it important, I would say I don't
>>>>>>>know simply because I am not a Jew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, then, do I, as a Jew, have the right to live in Mecca? Do you think that
>>>>>>I have the right to go up onto the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, into the
>>>>>>Al-Aksa mosque, and worship in my Jewish way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Be honest.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I will be honest with you. If you tell me as a non-Jew that I am welcome
>>>>>to live anywhere in the World except that I am not allowed to enter a 
>>>>>synagogue or live in a certain area in Jerusalem that is sacred to Jews,
>>>>>I will gladly accept that. Not allowing non-muslims to live in Mecca 
>>>>>or go up onto the Temple Mount is a religious belief. You can do it if
>>>>>you convert to Islam and I think you don't have plans for that. 
>>>>
>>>>Can I, then, say that all of Israel is sacred to Jews, and that Muslims
>>>>cannot live there unless they convert to Judaism?
>>>
>>>Yes you can. Can I in return say that whole Jerusalem is sacred for Islam and
>>>non-Moslems are not allowed into Jerusalem?  
>>
>>Nope. Given that Jerusalem is a subset of Israel (which you already agreed is 
>>sacred to Jews, and that Muslims cannot live there), it follows that Muslims
>>also cannot live in Jerusalem.
>>
>Well, Jerusalem is sacred to Christians and Moslems too. It is a subset of Israel
>by your definition. It is the subset of Moslems by my definition, and it is the 
>subset for Christians by Christians definition. The best solution is to share it
>and I am being moderate here.

I disagree about Jerusalem being a subset of Israel *by my definition*. It is a
subset of Israel geographically and historically (and has been an integral part
of Judaism for over 3000 years -- *far* longer than it has been for Muslims or
for Xians).

I think that an important point is to permit free access to Jerusalem for
Muslims and Xians, which is exactly what the Israeli government has done
since the creation of the Modern State of Israel in 1948 -- not only has it
never "closed the gates", but it has kept them open and guarded the sanctity
of Muslim/Xian holy places and funded the practice of Islam and Xianity, while
during the Jordanian rule from 1948-1967 Jewish sites and places of worship
were wontonly profaned and/or destroyed.

Moderate? I think you might try being "thankful".

j.horen@rs.com
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Facts and Opinions: Insights on American Jewish Thinking(?)
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:26:54 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug20.031853.26170@tronsbox.xei.com> moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (Len Moskowitz) writes:
>Herman Rubin writes:

>>The corresponding thing in Judaism would be to recodify the basics,
>>so that they can be studied without going through all the historical
>>details.  And almost none of Maimonides' knowledge of medicine is 
>>studied at all today, except by historians.  The errors of the past
>>are to be discarded.

>Judaism changes with the times -- it always has and always will.  The
>point is that the recodifying must be done by the experts and not the
>armchair amateurs who can't even consult the primary texts in their
>original languages, much less claim their mastery.

The recodifying has not been done by anybody.  The last recodification
of a code of ritual and taboo was done in the Shulkhan Arukh, which does
not, except peripherally, discuss the bases of the rules.  Many of them
are certainly overreaction.

As far as consulting the primary texts in the original languages, I cannot
read Euclid's _Elements_, nor the even more important work of Diophantus,
in the original Greek.  Nor can more than a handful of mathematicians 
today, including the greatest ones.  

I cannot imagine a curriculum in which a student would be expected to
even look at these original works, rather than getting them placed in
context in presentations in the vernacular.  Even at the research level,
knowledge of other languages is primarily so that the investigator can
read the current literature before it is digested or translated.  While
I can read the mathematicians of the 17th and 18th century in Latin, I
only do so to find out if they used a trick which has been removed from
the current textbooks, not for the theorems.

Much very basic mathematics, etc., has been done by armchair amateurs,
and even more in statistics.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: yosi@netcom.com (Yosi Almog)
Subject: Re: Should a jew settle in Israel?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 04:06:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:

: > You are asking the wrong person. However I will be honest with you and tell
: > you my opinion. If you ask the question "Does a Jew have the right to live
: > in Israel?" I would answer "A Jew have the right to live anywhere in the 
: > world and so does anyone else". As far as is it important, I would say I don'
: > know simply because I am not a Jew.
: >
: 
: 
: Yosi, I'm sorry but you got the perfect answer to your not very intelligent
: question. A point for you, Nabil.

I meant to ask a simple question. Nabil decided that he is not able to answer 
it(since he is not jew). I think that non-jews can give there answers too,
and it is interesting to hear them as well.

About the answer which he gives to his won question, I agree that 'A jew 
have the right to live anywhere in the world and so does anyone else'.

-Yosi
-- 

Yosi Almog
Systems Administrator
403 Whasington st.
S. Cruz CA 95060
Tel. 408/423.6621
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (S. H. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Bris
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 19:41:30 GMT

In article 4005@moscom.UUCP, de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan) writes:
>
>Now the actual circumcision is necessary, but the party afterwards is really
>optional.  Since we had had a nice party for each of our boys britot we felt
>that if we should ever have a girl we should give her a party as well.

Let's distinguish between two things.  A meal after a brit milah is a
seudat mitzvah, a meal which is either directly commanded or which celebrates
the observance of certain commandments.  Other seudot mitzvah include
the three Shabbat meals, and a meal eaten at the conclusion of the
(in-depth) learning of a book of the Torah or a tractate of the Gemara.
I would argue that not eating one of these meals is not a severe violation
of something, but that "optional" is too strong a word to describe them.

OTOH, there are meals such as at a shalom zachor or simchat bat (welcoming
the birth of a boy or girl respectively).  These are not seudot mitzvah,
though they have become custom to a  greater or lesser degree
(depending on one's community).  The shalom zachor is usually held on the
Shabbat night after the birth, so as to precede the brit milah: the purpose
is to "greet" the child as he approaches the milah. 
I don't know if the simchat bat is tied to a particular time.  
Either meal can be considered "optional" according to the strict halachah, 
although (need I say it?) some people will look askance at you (who cares?) 
if you skip one of these meals.  Yes, I'm certain that there are 
kabbalistic interpretations supporting shalom zachor.  I just wanted to 
distinguish it from a more definitive seudat mitzvah.

---
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604