HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:18:24 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

How about "Bell Book and Candle."  It has a kind of fanciful view of
witches as immortals who cannot cry.  It also is little mermaidish.  A
witch gives up her powers for the love of a mortal, played by Jimmy
Stewart.  

This movie has its humerous points.

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Subject: Re: Chimpanzee Reference
Reply-To: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 20:52:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.112300.23490@linus.mitre.org> heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
...
>      Linden, Eugene, March 1992, "A Curious Kinship:  Apes and Humans,"
>      _National Geographic_, volume 181, number 3, pp. 3-45.
> 
>      Linden, Eugene, March 1992, "Chimpanzees with a Difference:
>      Bonobos," _National Geographic_, volume 181, number 3, pp. 46-53.
> 
> The Japanese researcher I noted in the original post is Takayoshi
> Kano.  His study on bonobos, _The Last Ape:  Pygmy Chimpanzee Behavior
> and Ecology_, is being published by Stanford University Press.
> 
> The National Geographic Explorer television show, "Secret World of the
> Chimpanzee," was aired 15 March 1992 at 21:00 ET on cable channel TBS.
> 

Also worth reading are a couple of books by Frans DeWaal; titles are
_Chimpanzee Politics_ and _Peacemaking among Primates_, sorry I don't
have publication info handy.  _Chimpanzee Politics_, published in the
late '70's if I recall correctly, is a very insightful account of the
group dynamics of a colony of chimpanzees in captivity.  Reading it has
helped me understand a lot of things that go on in covens.  _Peacemaking_,
written in the late '80's, gives a broader view of the rich diversity 
of social systems among different species of primates, especially noting
the variety of different kinds of gender-specific behavior across species.
DeWaal astutely points out that this means we really do have choices 
about how to structure our society, the current division of sex roles 
is NOT hard-wired into our genes since before we were human.
 

Blessed Be,
--roger

rap@HQ.ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)   Speaking for myself only. Of course.
"I'm a primate, and proud of it!"
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:17:48 GMT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> 
> Who would moderate it?  How can we be certain that the moderator will not 
> filter with certain (perhaps even unconscious) biases which others would
> disagree with.  Could we end up with the "correct" Wicca being the only one 
> expressed?  
> 
> All in all, I think I would rather cope with the fundie Christians than the
> fundie Witches.  And they do exist!
 
Actually, I think I'd find Fundiwitches easier to take. If nothing else, 
they would provide insight into another aspect of the Craft, and another 
approach to the Mother. (Besides, I have a real problem believing that 
even the Fundiest of Witches would be even close toas offensive as your 
basic, middle-of-the-road, Xian Fundy)
 
As to moderator, why not ask for volunteers, then put it to a vote. I'd 
vote for Janice. I may not always agree with her, but I'm sure she would 
be as fair possable. Also, she doesn't suffer fools gladly, and that's a 
bonus in a moderator, IMHO.
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours.

Hawk.
 

Ian Fraser              idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton Remote Systems:  Celebrating 10 years of service to Northern Alberta
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New group details and comments.
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:56:59 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

> In article <1992Jul28.045009.6388@wolves.uucp> wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Wo
> >In article <1438@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writ
> >>My suggestion is, that we start a soc.religion.pagan group.
> 
> It's not hard to understand our zeal in wishing to be considered with
> the "big boys" on the net, but it does smack a bit of "Billy got a
> bicycle, so I want one too" when I think about it. Sure, we would gain
> visibility, but Wolfe brings up a point I originally ignored --
> that soc.religion.pagan would be moderated.  Do YOU want ANYBODY to 
> filter what is said here?  Sure, we have our flamefests and divergences
> from topic, but that is part of not only alt.pagan, but P/paganism in
> general (I've learned from a few of those divergences).
> 
> I probably am like most others around here -- I don't trust the 
> invisible people in charge to filter the "correct" material for my eyes,

I do not see the problem with starting a moderated group. I am 
perfectly capable of writing an auto-approve script... :)
Seriously, there are several people here that I would trust to 
moderate soc.religion.pagan... Paul, Tim, Ailsa, Janis, myself... :)
Some might balk at Paul or Tim, but I read them as VERY concientious. 
I do not believe they would ever abuse that power.

Blessed Be


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.UUCP  or  donal%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Kali (Was Re: More Crone Images)
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:51:13 GMT
	<24300@castle.ed.ac.uk> <15670@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>

In article <15670@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> 
darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
>My understanding is that Kali is an incarnation or manifestation of 
>the Hindu god Siva ("The Destroyer"). "She" is the epitome of death,
>destruction, etc., i.e., entropy.  Interestingly, in Hindu cosmology,
>which is quite different from anything western, we are considered to
>be living in the "Kali Yuga", or the Dark Age, characterized by
>extremes of selfishness and materialism. Hindu prophecy states that
>at some point the Kali Yuga will end and there will be worldwide
>spiritual renewal (hm, sound familiar??)

Some more info, maybe useful, maybe not. The Hindu trinity is Brahma-Vishnu-
Shiva. This trinity is the triple manifestation of the single transcendent,
sound familiar? In Hinduism, the answer for the begining is a cycle, cycles
upon cycles, no begining, no ending, just existance. Brahma represents the
creator who create the "world" we see, from nothing "in particular" or the
remains of the last cycle. Vishnu is the sustainer who keeps things going,
keeps things running. Shiva is the destroyer of worlds who paves the way
for a new cycle to begin. There is a well known artform of Shiva taping on the
drum of time with one hand and holding the fire of destruction in the other,
all while standing on the back of a human child form who is completely
unaware of all that goes on. Oppenheimer, the US physicist said, "I have
become Shiva, destroyer of worlds", upon seeing the first atomic bomb blast
which he created. All three, B-V-S, are transcendent of male/female,
but may have visited us in human form. Krishna was such a visitor, perhaps. 
Krishna may have been male, but may have been female, may have been both. 
Krishna is known to sometimes dance with Krishna as male and female aspects of ...
Krishna. Krishna may have represented the personification of Vishnu or
Shiva, this is not clear. Also it is clear that we are not now in a cycle of
Brahma, (or are we?). That leaves the question of whether we are in a cycle of
Vishnu or Shiva. All not so easy to answer. If you would like to know, then the
great epic Mahabharata is what you should read. Now, which came first, night
or day? There is also a PBS production that most libraries have on video
tape of the Mahabharata by Peter ...a (damn I can't remember, I will play the
pidgeon but you gots to play the sender - ATCQ).

Be seeing you!
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: European homogeneity (Was: Lithuania)
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:59:42 GMT
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>Wolfe, I think that the writer meant that each area of Europe is homogeneous.
>While it is not perfectly true, from an American point of view the homogen-
>eity of individual locales in Europe is nothing short of incomprehensible.
>What is incomprehensible often becomes legendary.

I suppose that's why they fight on Balcan. Bosnien-Hercegovina is
currently divided between four forces: Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians and
the UN (who hold the aerodrome outside of Sarajevo). Take a look on
the map and see how small Bosnien is and then come back and say that
European is a regionally homogenous continent.  

While you have your atlas out, take a look at Northern Ireland, the
British province permanently under a low-grade civil war. Then look at
the Baltic states (Lithuania is one of them). They have a major
problem there now with the Russian minority. Czechoslovakia has just
embarked on the process of becoming two separate states, hopefully
without too much bloodshed. In Germany the two kinds of Germans are
having severe difficulties to mount some understanding for eachother.
In Sweden the Lapp population is ignored as much as possible, whereas
it is very popular to tell jokes about peple from the southern
provinces.

I'm sorry if I get preachy on the subject. Get a subscription of the
National Geographic and you want have to be told this.

--Ceci, not affiliated with the NG
--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
"Tyger, tyger, burning bright
in the forest of the night"
William Blake
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:51:48 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
: 
: Hmmm...  No matter where you go, or who you deal with, there will always be
: some good people, some bad people, and some who don't give two shits.
: 
: There are racist whites, there are non-racist whites, and some whites don't
: give two-shits.
: 
: There are racist blacks, there are non-racist blacks, and some blacks don't
: give two-shits.
: 
: Please keep this type of thing in mind when trying to overwork your
: generalizations, people!
: 
: Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
: a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
: Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

Thank you Krikket - well said.

Bill
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:45:18 GMT
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
> >> Berkeley must have really changed since I was up there last
> >> month. Has the People's Republic been overrun by women already?

radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
> >What does this have to do with anything?

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
> In previous posts, you seemed to be very concerned that women may in fact take
> over the US and hold all positions of power. I find this highly unlikely.

Where did you get THAT idea?!?!?!

I find it HIGHLY unlikely that women would, in fact, take over all
positions of power.

I *DO* think it would be a bad idea if it ever WERE to happen.  You
were saying that you thought it would be the best thing since sliced
bread!  I think you're wrong about that.

> Frankly, I'm much more concerned about crossing the street or the coming
> earthquakes and fires. I would put the odds of women taking over all
> positions of power as nil. How would they get elected to all these positions?
> Do you really think all women are united against men? Do you really think 
> they will pick up automatics and Patriot Missiles and threaten us poor 
> defenseless men? Can you name a revolution where the women were responsible 
> and took over power in a coup?

Again, where did you get those ideas?????

I *NEVER* said anything about women picking up automatics and patriot missiles,
and I *NEVER* used the term "defelseless men"!

> Do you really think the oppressed want to
> turn the tables? They see how the system makes all sick, oppressed and
> oppressor alike, do you really think they want any of that?

I'm absolutely certain that *some* oppressed people want to
become oppressors.  *Some* oppressed women talk about how
men can suffer for the next two thousand years, since women
have suffered for the last two thousand years.


Paul, where are you coming from?


Blessings!

		-- radzy
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:01:07 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Jul29.223024.11568@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>In response to Richard Darsie's FireWalk story, Tim O'Neill  writes;
>
>>"The Vikings did something similar to firewalking? Have you got
>>any evidence for this?"
>
>  Ever taken a bath in ice cold water after sitting in a bath-house?
>
>  Perhaps the opposite direction, but quite possibly the same extreme.

	Yes, and it's still damn cold!  :)

>  So your point then, Tim, must be that fire-walking is a magic so
>highly advanced that it appears to be technology?
>
>  Cool.

	There is a quote from somewhere which says: "Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".  And _vice_versa_ of
course ;)
	
	I figure if something works, then there is a scientific
explanation. Perhaps current science can't explain it - after all, what
current science can do would be considered magic in the middle ages, or
even a hundred years ago or so - but sufficientally advanced science could
explain any actual phenomenon.  And I see nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:50:37 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Jul22.164328.23955@linus.mitre.org>, heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
> 
> Let me clarify my position.  What if there was  a white man's
> congressional caucus that had as it's avowed goals the same types of
> goals that are held by the women and black caucuses?  What if there was
> a National Association for the Advancement of White people that
> espoused the same things for whites as the National Association for the
> Advancement of Colored People does for blacks?  What if there was a
> Hetero Rights Organization that espoused the same things for heteros as
> Gay Rights Organizations do for gays?  Yes, the examples are extreme,
> but the point I'm making is that if the Oppressors had organizations
> with the intent of establishing/protecting rights along the same lines
> as the existing organizations, it would be considered wrong.

I don't think it would necessarily be considered wrong.  My men's
group did not come under attack.  Larger versions of the same would
probably be okay too.  I suppose a lot of the men in power would have
a problem with it, but I am not sure others would.  

Although on a national level I don't know what we would organize
around.  There are very few life and liberty threatening issues that
affect straight white men as a whole.  Unless it is being caught in the
corporate system, which I consider a death like experience. 

Men, burn your neckties!  Grow your hair long!  Wear skirts!  Refuse
to serve the system!

I don't know, sounds a little wierd to me.  I suppose we could lobby
for more research on a birth control pill for men, but vasectomys are
effective, and fairly reversable, and a lot less dangerous than
a tubal ligation. 

We coulnd't lobby for legalized marriages, we have them.  Equal pay?
I don't get paid enough as it is.  Non-racial hiring practices?  We
have to force companies not to hire all Straight White Males as it is.
If they really hired fairly think of the trouble we would be in!
Fight for equal schools?  Equal to whos?  The kids in the ghettos?
You know I just can't think of much to really complain about from a
race or sex viewpoint, unless it is how I have been manipulated and
controlled by soceity, the media, the government, etc. into being yet
another scummy man.  That trip I am glad to be mostly out of, and I am
willing and eager to help any other man out of that rut. 


-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hello alt.pagan!!!
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:12:49 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser) writes:

> brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
> 
> > Hello Ailsa, Hello Janis, Hello everyone else I have exchanged e-mail 
> > with! The lurking is over!!! We finally found the problem with my 
> > newsgroup posting and I am so very glad to announce that the Brewer's 
> > Witch BBS in Houston, Texas is glad to now join alt.pagan,already in 
> > progress :)
>  
> Hail! And Welcome!
>  
> Hawk
> 
and hallo from me too!  hail and well met!
 
                              -ailsa

                ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: European homogeneity (Was: Lithuania)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 19:26:20 GMT

  Forgive me for interjecting a joke without adding to the thread, but

  Ceci writes;

>" In Germany the two kinds of Germans are having severe difficulties to
> mountsome understanding for each other."

  Hmmm ... I was on a choir tour of Europe, and after TOO LONG in France,
we finally got back into Germany.

  "Boy, it's sure nice to be back in Germany", I said to my host family.

  "Germany!" scowled the matriarch of the house "You're not in Germany, you're
in BAVARIA!"

  She refused to talk to me for the rest of the morning.

  Make that at least 3 kinds of Germans.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:05:00 +0000


ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes..

[..]
>your analogy is fucked. black people are not defensive about racism,
>as they do not practice it. they defend themselves against racism, a
>completely different thing.

Pardon?

Try telling that to the tens of thousands of Asians who were slung
out of Uganda by Idi Amin and his merry tribe.

Go to any country in Africa, and you will find racism alive and well
and practiced by all irrespective of skin colour.

I suppose there is a certain justice in that ;-)

AFAIAC Apartheid cuts all ways. Oppression, exploitation, prejudice
and violence know no sexual or racial boundaries. Anyone who wants to
wash their hands and say that because they FEEL oppressed they aren't
doing any themselves, that because they FEEL exploited they aren't
wittingly or unwittingly participating in someone elses
exploitation....is just a pious hypocrite.

Get real, as I believe the parlance is. It is human nature to club
together in groups of a tribal size and if feeling threatened to piss
on the guys outside the group. Kids all do it. Lesbians do it. Gays
do it. Blacks do it. Whites do it. Straights do it.

Stop thinking that you have a monopoly on victimisation. There is
enough historical shit in the world to justify almost any action by
any identifiable group against any other.

Try regarding prejudice as narrow and immature thinking - remember
all human thinking is prejudice: We see somthing and relate it to our
past experience and what we have been told. That is basically
prejudging. As we get better at understanding things the categories
get more precise, and less oppressive.

It's an educational process. Stop moralising, start educating.




tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:

> In article 25296@geppetto.encore.com, aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldric
> >tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
> >
> >I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
> >the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
> >devil's advocate here..
> >
> >:-)
> >
> 
> You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
> to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
> thing went out 2000 years ago.
> 
your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
completely different thing.
> >It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
> >good as condoning in practice.
> >
> 
> I reject this out of hand. You are witch burning and don't even realize it.
> 


ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?