From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:12:40 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

I am responding to two postings, both concerning the same topic.  Mr. Allen's
posting appeared first at my site, but I have rearranged the material, 
eliminating some duplication.

|From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
|
|In article <BtLqFq.JrI@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
|>In article <17eihqINN1sb@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:
|>>How do you explain the numerous places where it says "vaydabber adonai el
|>>moshe leimor"?  Or, for that matter, "v'zot hatorah asher sam moshe lifnei
|>>b'nai yisrael *al pi adonai* b'yad moshe"?

In my posting to which this was a reply, I pointed out that many of the
cases of the former were situations where it would have been unlikely that
the words could have been written down on the spot.  One such is where God
tells Moses to commence the first of the ten plagues, the plague of blood.

|>As for the latter, I do not believe that this appears in the Torah itself.
|   Yes and no. The first part, up to yisrael, is from D'varim 4:44. The
|   remainder from Bamidbar 9:23.

I checked on these specific sections.  The part in Bamidbar has three (if I
got all of them) places where it is stated that the Jewish encampment moved
only when commended "al pi adonai"; the last one adds "b'yad moshe."

The other part is the introduction to D'varim 5, where the giving of the
Decalogue is repeated.  See below for arguments based on this.

One cannot just select phrases from different portions and concatenate them.

In article <ALLEN.92Aug26082028@golem.ssc.gov> allen@ssc.gov writes:
>>>>>> On 26 Aug 1992 00:16:58 GMT, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) said:
>In article <17eihqINN1sb@agate.berkeley.edu> schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:

			.....................

>A recital of the the Ten Commandments (really "Aseret HaDebrot", the
>Ten Utterances) used to be part of the morning services.  It was
>removed, and its re-insertion forbidden, during Temple times because
>certain heretical groups denied that anything but the Decalogue was
>from G-d.  Again it is seems that the Reform Movement offers nothing
>new; just a repackaging of the same old heresy that has bothered the
>Jewish people for 3300 years.

But that is what D'varim 5 states!  At the end of the giving of the
Decalogue, when the people accept it with fear and trembling, they 
are dismissed by God, who asks Moses to remain and receive the rest
of His Mitzvoth.  So while it states that Moses received additional
Mitzvoth, and presumably communicated them to the people, it does
state that only the Decalogue was given to the people directly by God.

We can learn something by studying the history of other religions.
They are replete with priests and interpreters adding more and more
ritual and regulations to the religion, often obscuring the basics.
It is generally agreed that the two tablets had nothing but the
Decalogue written on them, and before the Exile, they were the
contents of the ark in the Holy of Holies.  Which is the heresy?
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)