From: cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu (Malevolessence)
Subject: Re: LSD and alcoholics caught in mortuary with sheep corpse
Organization: Multinational Corporations, Inc.
Date: 2 Jan 93 15:48:37 PST

> Could you elaborate on your basis for these doubts?  Are you familiar with
> the extensive work of therapists who have given MDMA to their patients,
> are you familiar with the subjective reports of MDMA users, or is this 
> judgement based only on your understanding of "alcoholism?"

	It is based upon my understanding of alcoholism, which appears to be
more extensive than that of anyone else here.  Also, it is based upon half a
lifetime of observing people and chemicals, and people behaving.

> 
> The claim that alcoholics are always going to be alcoholics puzzles me.

	You understand nothing of the problem, then.

> It sounds like something an objectivist would say.  Or like something
> Wittgenstein attacked in his _Tractatus_.  If it means that former
> chronic drinkers have a higher chance of engaging in disfunctional heavy 
> drinking than the general population, then I can happily go along with
> it.  Otherwise, it sounds like dogma.  Now, if you find such dogma useful
> in your attempts to understand/control your own behavior, fine.  Just

	You're confusing drinking and alcoholism, which leads me to doubt your
claim to being a 'scientist.'  

> don't expect us scientists to think the claim has any scientific
> validity.
> 
> From what I understand, there has recently been success curing
> phobias with beta blockers.  For example, giving a dose of propranolol
> immediately before the stress-producing situation allegedly prevents
> panic from occuring and once the phobic finds they can calmly act in
> those circumstances, the phobia is allegedly gone (and no further
> drug intervention is necessary).  This seems to be an example of a
> single drug intervention curing a chronic behavioral problem.
> In what ways would treating alcoholics with MDMA be different?
> There are some who maintain that alcoholism is partly motivated by
> feelings of inadequacy in social situations and that alcohol is used
> to lower one's own and others' expectations.  Under such a model
> of alcoholism, MDMA therapy might seem particularly appropriate.

	There are some who feel that way, doubtless, and there are some who
would attribute it to a vengeful deity.  Neither theory is correct.
	Alcoholism as a disease is the addiction to alcohol, which comes in
many forms and is not the simple emotional lack you portray it as.
	So there is your answer.  If you are unable to understand it -- well,
since you think you are a philosopher, go read some Nietzsche, preferrably some
of the more trenchant passages from "Beyond Good and Evil" (otherwise known as
"Nietzsche Lite").

> Perhaps anything can play the central role(s) in someone's life which 

	Sophomore:  Anything sensual can have psychological
addiction-engendering qualities.  Anything.  I have seen people make
nonaddictive drugs 'addictive' by using them until they became not a central
focus but a necessity in their lives.  Anything.
	I seem to have to repeat myself quite a bit on this newsgroup...

> addictive drugs play in addicts' lives.  However, there are several
> standardized ways of measuring the addictive potential of a drug.  For
> example, we can look at patterns of self-administration in animals.  Or
> we can look at patterns of use in human users (such as percent of first-time 
> users who continue to become frequent users).  Any single measurement will
> have systematic flaws and will measure a slightly different aspect of the
> 'addictive qualitites' of a drug.  However, taken together, these measurements
> can give us a pretty good idea about how addictive a drug is. This sort of 
> thing can be done for non-drugs as well.  While further experimentation is
> necessary, it currently appears that MDMA has low addictive potential.
> 
>    --Matt Baggott
> 


Bucko Gizm
Newsgroups: alt.drugs