HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rlr@bbt.com (Powdered Toast Man)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Followup-To: alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.motss
Organization: BroadBand Technologies, Inc.,  Research Triangle Park, NC
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 17:55:59 GMT

[NOTE:  I've directed followups to a.p.h and soc.motss, where they're
more appropriate]

In article <1992Sep3.161048.24517@rtsg.mot.com>
 kutem@motcid.rtsg.mot.com writes:

>First of all, I'd like to see any quantitative analysis that proves that
>homosexuality is a learned behavior. If it is learned, and most gays and
>lesbians grow up in a straight family or environment, then where did they
>learn it from (and don't tell me that they were "molested" by some old
>man down the street, it just doesn't wash)?

>Second, as has been stated before, since homosexuality is a "learned
>behavior", that means that you could learn to be gay.

  I'm going to take an awful risk here, since this heated debate is raging
on in many newsgroups and has been for months.  Another risk is that I
personally side with the atheists and gays in this Scouting issue, so
my post might strike many of you as a devil's-advocate position.

  However, in the above paragraph, Jon is using an extremely limited
definition of "learned" that leads to inaccurate interpretations of
current psychological theory and adds fuel to the rhetorical fires of
homophobia.

  "Learned," in the psychological sense, does not mean that one goes to
school and 'learns' personality traits, or that the dirty old man down
the street 'teaches' a young kid to be homosexual.  "Learned," in this
sense refers to physical and emotional and environmental factors that
lead to the adoption of a sexual and gender persona.  Gender and sexual
roles (including heterosexuality) are "learned."  For all practical
purposes, these "learned" traits are integrated components of the
personality and are easily confused with "innate" traits.  All this
talk of straights learning to be gay and gays learning to be straight
is misleading.

  I am aware of studies linking physical traits with sexual orientation
(thymus glands, hormonal levels), but no conclusive evidence of
a physical "cause" for sexual roles exists.  IMO physical factors only
contribute to personality development (including sexual roles), they do
not dictate (as in the case of eye color).  Remember, correlation does
not imply causation!

  Ron "Mr. Didactic" Rader


-- 
--
ron rader, jr  rlr@bbt.com OR ...!mcnc!bbt!rlr 
      walking through this world of lies, with a heart made out of stone
      I looked deep into my eyes, and I knew I was alone, all alone - BF
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:19:53 GMT

In article <Bu8tt2.91D@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

-   philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
-   :     Here's a question for you:  Why is it that homophobia is now
-   : the only acceptable form of discrimination in the U.S.?
-
-   For the simple reason that it is considered evil by the majority of
-   the population.  

There's nothing simple about discrimination.

- However, there are many such forms of discrimination
- that are considered acceptable in the US.
-
-   For example, discrimination against child abusers, rapists, murderers..
-   the list is endless.  What is unique is that this is the only form of
-   "evil" in the US that is considered acceptable by enough American to
-   be a powerful enough political block to be able to force itself on the
-   majority.

*Force* itself?  "Forcing back," maybe.  You push human beings too
far, they push back.  We're not forcing a goddamned thing on anyone;
we are only *demanding* EQUAL status under the law.  If people choose
to bash us, we can fight back...we've been fighting for years.

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What is an Eagle Scout?
Summary: Percentage of BSA Scouts attaining Eagle
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:55:31 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ

In article <unixwiz.716010543@mcl>, unixwiz@mcl.ucsb.edu (Silk) writes:
> ... some text deleted ... 
> When less than 10% (feel free to correct me..) of all BSA members
> actually achieve the rank of Eagle Scout, it is indeed a rare honor.
> Ken Mencher
> Eagle Scout '90
> T627, Cypress, CA

Actually the percentage is closer to 2% (National average).
H.W. Holroyd
Eagle Scout '68
SM T-82, Jackson, NJ
-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
From: akins@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (kay.a.akins)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Skit idea needed...
Keywords: Help!!!!
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:22:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T


Wow, I just stumbled on this newsgroup - this is the greatest
thing since Roundtable!!!!   I'm a new WEBLO leader and am looking
for a skit the boys can put on for the next Pack meeting.  Any
ideas that are simple and silly???   The meeting theme is Fire 
Prevention but I'm open for anything.  Thanks.

Kay Akins
From: gwb@crosfield.co.uk (George Battrick)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: What is an Eagle Scout?
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:01:02 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <GERMAIN.92Sep10103859@munich.cs.utah.edu> germain%munich.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (H. James de St. Germain) writes:
"
"camp two years ago.  It was his opinion (he is a British Queen Scout) that a
"
Please!  The rank is "Queen's Scout": and was and will be "King's Scout" 
before and after Her Majesty's reign.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3024 alt.discrimination:4325 chi.general:1100 alt.atheism:17031 alt.politics.homosexuality:5907
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:41:51 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <AWERLING.92Sep11123117@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.235544.10895@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>
>-   Please, explain what led you to believe that I would interfere with
>-   your choices.
>
>Hmm.  Screaming "Yer going to hell" IS an interference....if you think
>teenagers have adult faculties you're sorely mistaken.  Cognitive
>development continues into the twenties.
You misjudge me, Sir. I am not a Christian. I am an atheist. For me
to tell someone that they are going to hell would be nothing less
than silly. What I did do was attack your claim that to do so would
be immoral.

Merely because I am pointing out that your argument is unsubstantiated
does not mean that I believe that gays are immoral or any such thing.
This is not an instance of "he who is not for us is against us."

>-   And FYI. I'm not a chemist.
> 
>Who cares?
In the post I was responding, to, a reference was made to my being a chemist.
I don't remember what it was.


-Ekr

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
From: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Current Batch of Uniforms
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:47:29 GMT
Reply-To: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Organization: m4

In article <1992Sep10.213059.8681@iplmail.orl.mmc.com>, mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson) writes:
|> Is it just me? Is there someone else out there who thinks that the current 
|> (BSA) uniform shorts are cut too short? I've had complaints from mothers and 
|> boys in my troop. It's hard to encourage complete uniforms when a part of it 
|> makes people uncomfortable.
|> 
...
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Mark Wilson 
|> Eagle Class of 1974
|> SM, Troop 565, Deltona, FL

I don't know about shorts.  The ones I have bought seem OK, but then maybe the
adult sizes are cut differently.

What gets me is that within the last couple of years the construction of the
long pants has changed very noticably.  The zippers in the fly have gotten
much shorter, and frankly make the pants much less comfortable to use.

Has anyone else noticed that phenomenon?
-- 
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Mike Greenawalt           | emg@metaphor.com                           |
| Manager, Software Quality | ...!{apple|decwrl}!metaphor!emg            |
| 	   Assurance        |                                            |
| Metaphor Computer Systems | Metaphors be with you.                     |
| 1965 Charleston Road      |                                            |
| Mountain View, CA 94043   | These opinions are mine, not my employer's |
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:11:47 GMT

In article <mccalley.715623076@lead16> mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley) writes:
>
>While it is true that AIDS can strike anyone, gay males have the highest
>incidence of the disease, 

Wrong.  Heterosexuals do, but then I guess you weren't thinking about
all those people in Africa.

Ry Schwark
ry@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@pi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:47:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.013554.18874@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>B of A took this to mean that the BSA was "open to all boys" [Quote
>from the B of A press release]. According to posting by a person who
>spoke to the B of A after the press release was released, the B of A
>didn't not [realize] that Scout oath and law precluded gay boys.

Actually it doesn't. It is just some people's interpretation of it
which does. Unfortunately some of those people are in the national
leadership and try to force their prejudice on the few troops which
have tried to publicly apply a more open policy. The scout oath and
law do not require adherence to Christianity or Judaism or to the
opinions of conservative (reactionary) Christians or Jews as to
what is "morally straight". There is no point of the scout oath or
law which says anything at all about sexual orientation.

Bill Mayne
From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: How is BSA nowadays?
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:10:50 GMT
	<1992Sep9.034713.22169@auto-trol.com>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


   I recently stumbled upon this newsgroup, and I see the all these headers 
with the same title, so I wanted to throw in a msg with a different one.
I do, however, wonder what is going on. I haven't had a thing to do with
scouting for about 18 years.

   So, anyway, things were pretty cool in my troop. I thought it was an 
excellent balance of youthful independance in an environment encouraging
us to be decent people. We did things the supervisors did not approve of. They
reacted something like: "Uh...I don't know if you should do that."

  How many of you sang Tom Lehrer's "Be Prepared" song? Does this thing
about homosexuality mean that it is no longer the BSA I joined? If Scouting
has become tainted with the fashionable new rightwing movement, then I
am very disappointed.

Nils K. Hammer
nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu

P.S. I wasn't too great as a scout, but I still wear the uniform belt even now.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2922 alt.discrimination:4213 chi.general:1039 alt.atheism:16769 alt.politics.homosexuality:5797
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:44:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <mccalley.715971339@lead16> mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley) writes:
>philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>>     You apparently have no idea how different.  The majority of
>>pedophiles identify as heterosexual.  The majority of homosexuals are
>>not pedophiles.
>
>You apparently have a REAL good idea of all the little nuances of
>deviate sexual behavior.  Please tell me, how did you get so informed!
Mr. McCalley, this is a classic example of argumentum ad hominem.
It seems that you are unable to reply to Mr. Lafornara's argument and
therefore are reduced to insulting him. Low. Very low.

>>>And maybe AIDS can strike anyone, but it mainly strikes homosexuals.
>
>>     Incorrect.  Do some research.
>
>Everything that I have seen points in this direction.  I will admit,
>since I do not feel as threatened, I have probably not paid as much
>attention to it as you have.  What I have learned is that you catch
>it by getting fluid in fluid, and there is a very short time the
>virous can live in the open air.  Using deduction, being the recipient
>of fluid carrying the virous is the most likely way to get it.  Hmmm,
>lets see...  When would someone receive fluid?  There are a limited
>number of ways this can happen.  And, while it is not impossible for
>a male to catch AIDS from an infected female, it is cetainly less likely
>than the reverse, or male to male for that matter.  This makes male-male
>encounters a better vehicle for transmission.  I can think of one other
>method of transferral, and that is intravenous needle reusage.  Since
>you seem to be very educated on this subject, perhaps you could enlighten
>the net on some of the other ways that tip the scale in the direction you 
>are indicating?  
I believe he is referring to the fact that most AIDS cases are in
Africa and are alleged[I don't know, frankly] to have been heterosexually
transmitted.

Naturally, this argument is of questionable relevance in this country
where the numbers are quite different.

-Ekr


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: sgi
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 01:55:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.011036.26752@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
|> In article <pink1ec@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|>  [I pointed out that just because Mr Rescorla *thinks* he 
|>   would want 'help' if he were Gay, that does not authorize
|>   him to impose his 'help' on someone else]

I thought that was clear enough, but apparently not.

|> I know it's a stretch, but suppose for a moment that you're
|> 1) Straight.[I have no clue if you are, but it's a beginning
|> assumption for the position I'm trying to point out]
|> 2) A believer in a belief system which holds that homosexuality is
|> wrong. Perhaps even one in which being gay means that you
|> are permanently condemned to hell.

Whatever you assume, my belief system does not authorize me
to impose my help on someone else.

|> Now, supposing one is such a person. Clearly, to be gay is
|> a bad thing. It is not at all a stretch to think "If I were
|> gay, I would want people to make me straight." because
|> after all, being gay means that one is condemned to hell.

Fine, then pray for people not to be Gay.   That is, after 
all, what this hypothetical religion says is the most 
effective action you can take.   The hypothetical Messiah 
of this hypothetical religion even warned his followers 
against interfering in the lives of others, telling then that 
only if they felt that they were sinless should they throw
the first stone.

|> 
|> Now, for such a person, it naturally follows that "do unto
|> others as you would have them do unto you" would include
|> trying to "help" those who were gay. Because that's what
|> you'd want to be done to you.

Because *what* is what you'd want to be done to you?  

Any help at all, no matter how foolish, unqualified, 
misguided or plain malicious?   

Are you saying that when you think you want 'help' you'll 
welcome any interference at all, no matter how stupid or 
counter-productive it might be?   And you conclude that 
everyone else will, too?

That's your fallacy.    Saying that in this-and-that
situation you would want help is not at all the same as 
issuing an open invitation to any 'help' whatsoever.

If I want help, I'll get help.    I won't wait for someone 
to decide to 'help', based on what they imagine they would 
want for themselves if they were in a situation they are 
not in, and which they probably know nothing about.

|> What in HELL makes you think that I've ever imposed
|> my "help" upon anyone, eh?

I don't.   I'm just explaining what's wrong with your 
argument.   Think of it as 'help'.

jon.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: bk134@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Keith William Bowes)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Boards of Review
Date: 11 Sep 1992 20:25:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Our council just put out a 20 page guide to the Troop
Board of Review. It was based on the Scoutmaster's
Handbook, No.6504, Advancement Guidlines, No.3087B
and the Scout Handbbok, No.3229, as well as past 
guidelines from ours and other councils.
This guide states that the purpose of the Board of
Review is to "establish the experiences in the memory
of the Scout and to verify that all the requirements
have been met. The board shall in no way give the 
impression that a re-examination is taking place. It is
important to get the Scout talking about his experiences
in Scouting and how it has affected his life. There shall
be no technical questions to trip the Scout up.
The Board does NOT re-examine the Scout."
Later it is stated that "the Board does not retest the
candidate but instead should determine the Scouts ideals,
goals and what he did for his rank. This is a review, not 
a re-examination."
Hope this helps.
Keith
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting split - I'll help
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:33:06 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research
Keywords: policy wisdom methods hate discontent flames etc

In article <1992Sep11.153600.13507@cs.tulane.edu>, newcomb@pops.navo.navy.mil (Don Newcomb) writes:
|> In article <1476@frackit.UUCP> daveh@frackit.UUCP (Dave Hultberg) writes:
|> >IMHO it isn't the subject that a lot of us disagree with, but in the
|> >unscoutlike language and tone it is posted in.  I would like to be able
|> >to have my Cub Scouts talk to Scouts in other states and countries, but
|> >the profanity and name calling that goes on here makes that impossible. 
|> 
|> This  is probably the best argument for splitting the group.
|> 

I don't buy it.  Sounds like a good argument for killing postings
containing profanity.  In fact you point out later in
your posting how easy it is to do just that. 
What does that have to do with whether
the topic is policy or non-policy?

|> >I am perfectly willing to have either side try to persuade the other or
|> >me with rational arguments.  Profanity and name calling is
|> >inappropriate, poor debating practice and not in keeping with the Scout
|> >Law that the posters profess to practice.  
|> 
|> I think _some_ posters have no interest in scouting at all.
|> 
|> >I don't think that splitting rec.scouting would work unless the
|> >non-policy group is moderated.  If it isn't all of the current flames
|> >will just be cross-posted to one more group.  
|> 
|> An obvious truism. 

I don't buy this either.  Is the "non-policy" group going to reject
*all* articles discussing policy or just those discussing discrimination?

For example, we have had threads about forbidding shorts in the
uniforms, and threads about the appropriate age for Eagle,
and threads about whether Boards of Review should quiz scouting
knowledge.  These are all policy questions, so they are off-topic
for the moderated group, right??

I'm still unconvinced that there's a valid reason to split
the group, and I still will vote no.



-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2880 alt.discrimination:4166 chi.general:1009 alt.atheism:16691 alt.politics.homosexuality:5742
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:53:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

In article <1992Sep4.201833.17472@auto-trol.com> katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:

 Karen Hill:::::
   : Ok....If someone chooses to abuse drugs in the privacy of his own home and 
   : considers this behavior acceptable and moral, should society put restrictions
   : on him if it doesn't hurt anyone else (based on several other replies to
   : my question)? How does society decide what is acceptable and what is not?
   : 
   : Lately, it appears that the loudest voices and deepest pockets make the
   : decisions. But who's to say that they know best?
   : 

- How could they possibly know best? But shouldn't this also be true of GLBO
- people? Don't you think we know ourselves better than those who claim our
- homosexuality is learned? Why not believe us when we are telling the truth
- about our lives?

Damn Str**ght!!!!

Amen, Kathy, Amen!

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality