HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fred_s@earwax.pei.com (Fred Scott)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: use a KILLFILE
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:21:03 GMT
Organization: Protocol Engines Incorporated

In article <440@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
>In article <2ADAD4DC.5183@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Just because a newsgroup has seemingly had a given nature for a time,
>>a change isn't necessarily bad.  And even if it is bad, what can you
>>do?  Usenet life goes on, with or without any individual.
>
>Come off it.  Remember the original cause of this thread?  It was
>a dispute between the existing clientele of a group and "invaders"
>who were off topic.

Yes, but who gave the original "clientele" their right to decide what was
OK and what was verboten to post in the first place?  (BTW, you say they
were off topic, but I'm not so sure any more.  My comments below assume that
the "invaders" might have felt otherwise.)

Your decision that squatter's rights takes precedence is an arbitrary one,
which is not based on any generally accepted principal of netiquette I've
ever heard.  Personally, I don't agree with it - and who's to say you're
right and I'm wrong?

>I am not saying newsgroups don't or shouldn't change, I am saying
>you should not be able to come in and "take over" an existing news
>group just because you cannot (or are too lazy to) find one more 
>suitable, or because you just like being a net.terrorist.

I agree that you shouldn't "take over" a newsgroup just by virtue of
prolific posting on a subject which has nothing whatsoever to do with the
charter of the group.  However, if your posts are arguably germane to it,
"C'est la vie" - there's noone empowered to tell you not to post.

Fred
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:43:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.051921.15362@pegasus.com> richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) writes:
> Besides, putting it under comp.os is inappropriate.  It belongs under
> comp.unix with all the other Unixes and Unix lookalikes.

Like coherent and linux and minix, right?

> Why would anyone want to imply that it's no longer Unix, or at least
> a very faithful lookalike?

Fear of lawsuits?
-- 
Peter da Silva                                         `-_-'
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.                              'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012           "Heeft u vandaag al uw wolf geknuffeld?"
+1 713 274 5180                       "Tjener, denne ret er stadig levende."
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.sport.fencing
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:57:55 GMT
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Of the possible names mentioned so far, I prefer
 rec.sport.fencing.  

Someone should do a names straw poll (Not me).
 Something on the order of "Which name is your
 favorite, which names would you vote for,
 which names would you vote against?"
-- 
Francis A. Uy			now a Bawlmorean, hon.
Program Director, WUMD		ISO part time job to pay the rent.
From: pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.marching vs rec.arts.marching
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:07:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: csn.Bw74so.C2E
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

In article <Bw72vx.2wF@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>I say:
>
>rec.*.marching.drumcorps
>rec.*.marching.misc
>

>But what about the *?  If you say "music," you lock out military marching,
>whereas if you say "arts," anyone who thinks he marches artistically can
>speak up.

Bingo. That's the idea of putting the two groups under rec.arts.marching.
We're after anyone and everyone who marches artistically; and we're
specifically excluding any type of marching referring to military tactics.  To
put it succintly, we think we've found a much finer use for rifles and sabers.

>My opinion falls on the side of rec.MUSIC.marching.* because the new groups
>are more similar to the other rec.music.* groups than to what is currently in
>rec.arts.*.

One semantic problem with using rec.music is that music is not always used.
The San Jose Raiders, 1992 World Champion Color Guard, performed the majority
of their program to excerpts of the Robin Williams monologue in "Good
Morning, Vietnam!" The 1991 Miamisburg High School Color Guard performed the
first 2 minutes of their Campionship Show -- a tribute to Marilyn Monroe -- in
total silence. It was absolutely stunning.

In performance-related marching, music may or may not always be present, but I
say that art is always present. Hence, we're recommending rec.arts.marching as
the root directory for the two groups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps for
drum-corps-related discussion and rec.arts.marching.misc for everything else.
If traffic in r.a.m.m for Color Guards or Marching Bands or English Girls'
Kazoo Bands justifies a separate group in the future, we will have a
well-defined location for bifurcation.

>-sz  (my $.01 -- we're in a recession)

Does this sound OK to you?

--phil
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 17:33:46 GMT

>>Besides, putting it under comp.os is inappropriate.  It belongs under
>>comp.unix with all the other Unixes and Unix lookalikes.
>>
> [...]
>I would also be happy to have comp.unix.386bsd or some other variant of
>that, but there is plenty of precedent for puting unix look-alikes in
>comp.os.* -- comp.os.linux, comp.os.coherent, comp.os.minix, and for one
>that uses enough BSD code to require a license from AT&T, comp.os.mach.

Minix is not a Unix clone.  Linux isn't either, thought it may be
turning into one.

Mach is definitely not a Unix clone, ask the authors.

-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi)
Subject: Re: use a KILLFILE
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:50:42 GMT

In article <nrp.718535370@reading> nrp@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk writes:
>But seriously folks, if we start ignoring charters the net will become
>unusable because it will be impossible to predict or govern where articles
>will go.

An interesting coincidence.  That is exactly what has happened in
the unmoderated comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives and why we are having
the recent RFD for a moderated comp.archives.msdos.announce + CAM.d
to replace its functions. 

..................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous FTP archives 128.214.87.1
Faculty of Accounting & Industrial Management; University of Vaasa
Internet: ts@uwasa.fi Bitnet: salmi@finfun   ; SF-65101, Finland
From: barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd
Date: 12 Oct 1992 14:25:35 +0200
Organization: Dept. Elec. Eng., Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: daisy.ee.und.ac.za

In article <id.PJYT.9CI@ferranti.com>,
peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
> > Besides, putting it under comp.os is inappropriate.  It belongs under
> > comp.unix with all the other Unixes and Unix lookalikes.
> Like coherent and linux and minix, right?

Right.  And they all belong under comp.os.unix.  No smiley.

--apb (Alan Barrett)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.windows reorganization
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:22:14 GMT

bruce@ais.com (Bruce C. Wright) writes:
> [Writing of inappropriate Microsoft Windows postings in comp.windows.*]
> The problem could probably be
> reduced by having more frequent postings about what the various
> comp.os.ms-windows.* and comp.windows.* newsgroups _are_, in the
> relevant groups (that is, news.answers is usually NOT a good place
> because it's like computer documentation -- everyone knows that Real
> Programmers/Engineers never read the documentation :-).  Put it in
> the comp.windows.* groups themselves -- that's the only place that
> the clueless are likely to find it.

Every single edition of every single (Microsoft) Windows FAQ (edited by
yours truly) for the past 12 months or more has explicitly said that comp.-
windows.misc and comp.windows.news are *NOT* for Microsof Windows.  Has
it helped?  Not bloody likely.

The problem is that people who post to inappropriate groups are mostly
those who have not yet located the correct groups -- and thus cannot pos-
sibly have read the FAQ for those groups.  The only way to reduce the
confusion is by finding a less confusing (to neophytes) name for the groups.

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
From: sergio@Ingres.COM (Sergio L Aponte)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Cual es la razon?
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:04:51 GMT
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


	I received some mail about the fact that the original post was in
	spanish. I will not quote the sender, but my answer might reveal some
	of the issue.

:>	Me interesa saber cual es la logica que indica que establecer estos
:>	grupos es apropiado...

:Sir, this conference's language is english. I don't speak any spanish.
:I guess you think that people not speaking spanish don't have 
:valuable opinions, so there is no need to communicate.

:While you are free to have any opinion you like, it may be regarded as
:rude to show it on an international forum like news.groups.

	That seems to be the whole issue.

	Interested parties are trying to setup newsgroups of the form

	chile.alt....
	chile.comp....
	chile.sys....

	etc, etc...

	I believe is because they feel they don't have a place to talk about
	this issues.

	Is it a LAW that you HAVE to post to news.groups in english?
	Do all groups have an oficial language?

	My post goes on to explain we could end up with 1900 (the number of
	newsgroups in my newsrc file) * # of countries newsgroups, when I
	always thought the idea was to share all info on a particular subject
	within a newsgroup.

	I am sorry you can't read my post, but has it occured to you that, as
	more and more countries connect, many other people can't read yours in
	topics of common interest?
--
===============================================================   _|||_
Sergio L. Aponte, SMTS @ Ingres, an ASK Company                   <*,*>
Internet : sergio@coqui.ingres.com                                [`-']  Keko
UUCP     : {sun,mtxinu,pyramid,pacbell}!ingres!coqui!sergio       _"_"_  Jones
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: deitrich@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dave Deitrich)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.mecha
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 06:01:19 GMT

cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) writes:
>Unless it's a private email telling you to move the mecha stuff from
>frp, I'm afraid I have not seen posts asking (or telling) people not
>to post mecha stuff to rec.games.frp.misc, unless it it off topic 
>(i.e. not frp).  Admittedly, I may have forgotten a post or 100 B^).

Like I said, it's a only a (very) minor problem.  It's more apparent in 
rec.arts.anime than in rec.games.frp.misc.  I just sometimes get annoyed
when I see "I don't believe this discussion belongs in RAA.  Move to RGFM
now."  No big deal.

--
Dave Deitrich                             Manager, CCSO Oregon Computing Site
deitrich@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu                and One o' the Guys in charge of JACK
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CCSO and I have this deal; I don't represent them and they don't fire me.

Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: coercion and Usenet
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 16:46:04 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti):
>Chip Salzenberg (chip@tct.com) wrote:
>> With apologies to Douglas Adams, I reply: This must some new meaning
>> of the word `coercion' I wasn't previously aware of.
>
>This section is from the roget's thesaurus, the bit about "take no denial"
>seems to be the most relevant.

A thesaurus shows related concepts, not just (almost) identical ones.
Assuredly, "insistence" and "coercion" _are_ related concepts; without
the former, you likely won't have the latter.  But if you have the
latter, you don't necessarily have the former!

Remember: "`p implies q' does not imply `q implies p'".
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Xref: sparky news.groups:19082 chile.grupos:16
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: news.groups,chile.grupos
Subject: Re: Cual es la razon?
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:02:43 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to ppoblete@tortel.dcc.uchile.cl (Patricio Poblete):
>I am not sure it is appropriate to discuss in news.groups about the
>creation of groups under the "chile.*" hierarchy.

Where else but news.* can we discuss the creation of a new hierarchy,
anyway?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.windows reorganization
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 12:58:48 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman):
>I think that using "x-windows" would be a BIG help in indicating
>that this is NOT any other kind of windows (ms-windows in particular).

However, "x-windows" is just plain _wrong_.  The entity in question is
not a system named "X Windows".  It is a window system named "X".

>	comp.gui.windows
>	comp.gui.x-windows

If you were to make this mistake, the least you could do would be to
call the Microsloth group "comp.gui.ms-windows".
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: use a KILLFILE
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:10:43 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to jfurr@vtssi.vt.EDU (Joel Furr):
>The "USE A KILLFILE" cry of the net.dictators...

No one is telling you that you _must_ use a KILL file, Joel.

But I do say: If you can't or won't, please don't bother us about it.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
From: pauls@icecreambar.css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd
Date: 13 Oct 1992 13:38:16 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pauls@umich.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: uglymouse.css.itd.umich.edu

Dean M. Phillips writes
| 2) Most of the questions in comp.unix.bsd which are truly related to
| 386BSD are installation problems.

I think this is undeniably true.

| IMHO, it makes far more sence to expend effort in fixing the install
| program, correcting the man pages so that they reflect the minor
| differnces between VAX BSD and 386BSD, and writing a better tutorial on
| how to set things up for the masses who are trying to install 386BSD on
| their home systems, never having been a sysadmin before.
| 
| As the above projects are done, the volume of "newbie" questions should
| diminish.

This justifies nothing.

1. Unless you are proposing to set up and coordinate this projec, then  
this is just more nihilism.  I personally could not pull off this effort.   
If you can, more power to you.  What's the plan?  I won't trade a new  
newsgroup for a possible improvement in the OS.

2. I sincerely doubt that even such an effort plus a Purlitzer  
Prize-winning tome-sized FAQ on every possible subject would deter the  
level of newbie questions.  At least 75% of the current newbie questions  
are covered under Terry's FAQ already.  That's life.  I am personally  
inclined to help people asking such questions anyway.

3. Furthermore I suspect it would take you a considerable amount of time  
to pull it off, in the mean time, business as usual.

4. In my opinion, the people who have such skills to radically update the  
installation procedure would better spend their time improving the total  
product and/or writing patches and/or porting software--letting people who  
have successfully pulled off the installation, but who are not  
programmers, answer the "newbie" (I hate that word) questions.

5. As we have seen with Linux, operating systems like these get more and  
more complex over time, as more and more software gets ported, more and  
more interesting patches are produced, and people push the operating  
system on strange new platforms.  This leads me to suspect that the level  
of "newbie" questions will increase rather than decrease, if left to run  
its course.

Paul Southworth                    |     ftp redspread.css.itd.umich.edu
Consulting and Support Services    |        Anonymous Political Archives
Information Technology Division    |                     100% 386BSD 0.1
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor  |             New submissions welcome 

  <Representing myself.  Everything I say is for educational use only.>
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.archives.msdos.announce moderated and comp.archives.msdos.d
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:34:29 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <Bw2A87.Ktn@uunet.uu.net> tale@ten.uu.net (David C Lawrence) writes:
>In article <BvwFty.EHx@NCoast.ORG> brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown) writes:
>> I welcome c.a.m.a on its own merits, because the moderators would be the
>> folks who originate ths useful announcements on cbip.archives now.
>> c.a.m.a.d is needed, because where else do we report bugs?

>Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.apps,comp.bugs.misc

>comp.sources.bugs would also be appropriate for a lot of it.

>Those groups already exist and are very low volume.

No wonder.

Please don't send people out of the heirarchy to post bugs reports and 
problems.  We're trying to get them IN the correct heirarchy.

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd
Date: 15 Oct 92 10:48:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: daisy.1bj48cINN63t
Organization: Dept. Elec. Eng., Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: daisy.ee.und.ac.za

In article <1bbti9INNoh2@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
pauls@css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth) quotes me and writes:
> > Right.  And they all belong under comp.os.unix.  No smiley.
> 
> comp.os.unix?  Now I don't follow you.  You think it should be:
> comp.os.unix.mach  comp.os.unix.linux  comp.etc etc etc

Yes, that's what I think.

> I guess I am having a hard time using your position to construct a
> viable proposal in my head.

It would probably have to be done in stages.  First move
comp.unix.* to comp.os.unix.*, and if the vote passes then
start moving all the comp.os.<unix-by-any-other-name> groups to
comp.os.unix.<unix-by-any-other-name>.

In the mean time, adding new comp.unix.* groups, such as
comp.unix.bsd.386bsd, is reasonable.

> Are YOU going to handle the RFDs and votes to move all those groups
> so that we can have comp.os.unix.386bsd and a neat little hierarchy
> around us?

Chip just went through a comp.unix.* reorganisation, and he decided not
to move the whole mess to comp.os.unix.*.  I don't propose to do anything
about it until next time somebody does a comp.unix.* reorg.

--apb
Alan Barrett, Dept. of Electronic Eng., Univ. of Natal, Durban, South Africa
RFC822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za                    Bang: m2xenix!undeed!barrett
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Re: not everybody uses UNIX to read news
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 08:19:11 GMT

>
>Killfiles are NOT mandatory for USENET participation; if you set yourself up
>as an expert on USENET and go around claiming that if someone doesn't use a
>UNIX newsreader, he's at fault, you pretty quickly show yourself to be less of
>an expert and more of a didactic fool.

So a minority of participants are using less powerful readers.

How long must the rest of us drive around in first gear because that one
slow poke at the head of the line hasn't seen fit to get out of our way?

:-)

-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.autos.offroad
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:44:11 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <BvpwHo.Gzr@uunet.uu.net>, gregc@jacobi.WPI.EDU (Greg "Your Friendly Neighborhood Poet" Charland) writes:
| 
|      This thread has come up before in rec.autos, so this time I figured I'd
| do something.  This article is a Request For Discussion concerning a newsgroup
| for people with an interest in Four-Wheel Drive vehicles, their operation, 
| maintenance, history and other uses.

  If you are going to limit it to 4WD you should use that as the name,
since offroad includes 4wd, dunebuggies, and racing. You *might want to
use these as subgroup names within rec.autos.offroad, which I would
support. On the other hand people may want to try to force all
offroaders to use a single group, even though there are a lot of
marginally overlapping interests.

|      It seems to me that an alt.4wd group would be a good start.

  Let's try for a real group, first. I obviously would rather have a
heirarchy, but any group would be nice to have.
-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
    Keyboard controller has been disabled, press F1 to continue.