HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 Long Colt vs .357 & .44 Magnum
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:21 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, California

In article <63327@mimsy.umd.edu> ctownsend@atlas.nafb.trw.com writes:
#
#	I was hoping someone could look up some ballistics for me . . .

OK, from 1993 Shooters Bible.  
#
#	I'm curious how the 45 Colt (Long Colt) compares to .357 Magnum and
#.44 Magnum in terms of velocity and energy (for their respective bullet
#weights).  

I'll quote Remington only.  If you want Federal &/or Winchester, buy
the book yourself ;-)

Caliber		Blt. Wt. Grains		Vel. Muzzle	Energy Muzzle
-------		---------------		-----------	-------------
.357 		110			1295		410
		125			1450		583
		158			1235		535
		180			1145		524
9mm		88			1500		440
		115			1155		341
		115	+P		1250		399
		140			935		272
		147			990		320
.44 Mag		240	Lead med.vel.	1000		533
		180			1610		1036
		240	Lead gas check	1350		971
		240	Semi Jacket	1180		741
		210	Semi Jacket	1495		1042
.45 LC		250	Lead		860		410
		225	Semi Wadcut.	960		460
.45 ACP		185	Lead WC Match	770		244
		185			1000		411
		230			835		356
		185	H.P. +P		1140		534 

I've included the 9mm and .45 ACP as a free bonus ;-)

Note that the choice of a load within a caliber is more important
in many cases than a choice of caliber... such as a 534 ft-lb .45 ACP
vs. a 533 ft-lb .44 Mag (!)

#Also, I picked up some Federal High Power Semi-Wadcutter Hollow
#Points;  

225 gr. bullet at 900 fps, 405 ft-lbs.  

#The salesman told me these are hotter than the typical 45 Colt load.

The salesman lied.

#What are the ballistics?  

Winchester comes in with two loads at 920 fps, 423 ft-lbs (225 gr
Silvertip) and 255 gr. lead at 860 fps, 420 ft-lbs. 

Congratulations, you have the lowest ft-lbs of the lot!  (But they are
slightly faster than about 1/2 the competition, even if they are
60 fps slower than the Remington wadcutters...)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SSK Address--want a .375 JDJ Barrel...
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:35 GMT
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


In article <1ias0aINN1g7@menudo.uh.edu> GWH@UH.EDU (Gregory W Hayes) writes:
#Does anyone have SSK's address?  

SSK Industries
721-WI Woodvue Lane
Wintersville, OH 43952
(614) 264-0176

#I got a chance to try a gent's .375
#Contender at the range and want to get one. It made my .30-30 Contender
#look puny. :-)  Any ideas on prices of the barrels or any other info 
#would be appreciated.  

I paid $260 for a .223 Remington barrel last year.  It shoots about 1.25
MOA with a 4x scope.  If I had it to do over again I would give a hard 
look at a company named Bullberry.  The SSK barrel came missing the 
rollpin which holds in the extractor/ejector.  It also had a scratch in
the muzzle.  I was in such a hurry to use it that I didn't demand a 
replacement (I'd already waited 6 weeks).  They sent the rollpin out
and I've had no problems since.

#Also, does anyone know if he sells to the general
#public or does he go only through FFLs?  Is there a price difference if
#he sells to either?

I bought mine direct and I don't have an FFL.  The Contender frame is the 
part that is restricted.  Of course you know that you'll need to buy 
custom dies to reload this puppy. 

-brian


-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: General info needed.
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:54 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rinehart) writes:

#     #1. The general opinion seems to be that reloaded ammunition is more
#         accurate than the factory stuff. I have several boxes of .222 ammo
#         (Santa was good to me!). They are Remingtons and PMC brand. I have
#         several boxes of old shell that I was going to get reloaded at some
#         later date. What is the difference between the factory ammo and
#         reloads and, for groundhog hunting, which one is better?

	I find the reloads are better, if I do my job right.  The factory
ammo is quite consistent, but I can be more consistent then they if I
take the time and effort.  In addition, I can tinker around and get the
load that is best for my gun; the factory cannot.  How much time do you
have, and how will you spend it is the question.

#    #2.  The .222 rifle mentioned above is a Western Field model 712 (I think)
#         and it looks identical to a Savage .222 I have seen. What size groups
#         should I be getting at 100 yards?

	I have a Savage .222; look for 3" groups at 100 yards as a good
average.  You'll have a few stray ones, but from a bench and taking your
time this is not at all extroidinary performance.  Either that, or my
grandfather needs to enter the national matches. ;-)  This was achieved
with a 12x scope on a Savage .222 bolt-action using handloads.

	(mail me for the loading parameters)

# Is 100 yards the right range to be
#         sighting in at?

	Good average; the bullet doesn't rise or drop much before or
slightly after that.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >
From: lion@netcom.com (carl loeber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Comment on GRENDEL P-12 seen in Amer. Riflmn. 12/92 ?
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


es anyone have experience or knowledge of The .380 backup gun
Grendel P-12 which appeared on page 61 of last months edition of
American Rifleman?

I asked the gun shop and they said these have been out for several years?


Is it reliable and where are you buying them, going price ?
From: julian@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:15:47 GMT
Organization: The hole in the wall. Hollywood

In article <1993Jan9.035605.28914@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#In article <1iklpoINN6lb@girtab.usc.edu> plaw@chaph.usc.edu (Patrick Law) writes:
###	I doubt it. The stories I read are that people are being killed
###	by bullets that are coming in their windows, not through the
###	roof, or out of the sky. Yes, I have read of deaths caused
###	by more or less vertically falling bullets, but not many.
###*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
##
##A falling bullet is equally lethal except its probability of hitting 
##somebody is smaller than a horizontal flying bullet.
#
#Sorry, Patrick, but you are wrong in saying that.  A bullet falling
#vertically seldom exceeds 300 fps vertically but usually exceeds that
#when fired.  Most folks that are accidentally hit by a bullet and
#killed are hit by bullets travelling horizontally.

	I used to work in Compton, California, a suburb of Los
Angeles. It is notorious for "gang activity". The building I worked
in, just your generic warehouse type, had bullet pock marks and two
windows received bullet holes while I was there. 

	I picked up 3 spent bullets in the parking lot. These were 45s
and 9mm (38), all lead composition. They were hardly deformed, this 
would indicate that they had not hit the black top (tarmac) parking 
lot with much velocity. I always assumed that these bullets came 
down from vertical shots fired from the center of Compton which was 
across the Freeway (91). 

	Yes, I know this is terribly anecdotal, but it does point out
that fired bullets can come to rest without looking like grey nuggets.
I am willing to concede that they arrived in the parking lot from
horizontal shots, but however they got there, their terminal velocity
must have been pretty low.

	Yes, it would be nice to run some tests firing bullets
straight up and horizontally and seeing what damage they do when
landing, but the problem is finding them when they come down.

-- 
Julian Macassey at bongo. julian@bongo.tele.com Voice: (213) 653-4495
Paper Mail: 742 1/2 North Hayworth Avenue, Hollywood, California 90046-7142
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: More New for '93
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:13 GMT

A few more items....

Bryco will be introducing a 9mm pistol about the same size of their
.380.  Dealer cost is around $80.

Intratec, makers of the TEC-9, is introducing a palm-sized polymer
frame 9mm pistol called the Category 9.  If I remember correctly,
it will also be available in .40 S&W.  IMHO, an ugly gun.

Ruger is coming out with a fixed-sight Blackhawk, which should
appeal to the single action purists, and they are also re-introducing
the Bearcat, a small single action .22 revolver.  They are also
now producing the P93DAO, the polymer-framed double-action only
version of the P85 series.

And, if you haven't seen the new G&A, Voere will be showing their
new rifle at the SHOT show.  What's special about it?  It electronically
fires .22 caseless ammo, with ballistics comparable to the .223.
Estimated price is upwards of $2200, and $2 per round for the ammo.

Rob
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock problems
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:50:02 GMT

Hi folks,

Well, I am back from vacation, and upon picking my new issues of Gun Week
(ihmo, the best politics and industry watch), I saw two articles on Glock
problems in '92.

Main news:

o	Glock VP Karl Walters has been fired due to his inability to 
	handle problems effectively during '92 and his big "entertainment
	spending" on his clients in exotic nightclubs and restaurants
	in Atlanta GA.

o	His successor is unknown at this time - all problems and issues
	are being handled by the regional managers.

o	Massachusetts State Police reportedly turned down a Glock offer 
	of over 2000 FREE pistols (valued near $1 million) and instead 
	opted to BUY the Sig pistols.

o	Testing of Glock .40, .45 and 10mm pistols by independent quality
	inspection firms say that the Glock pistols are contributory
	factors in Glock blow-ups that are caused by reloaded ammo.  The
	article did not mentioned about Glock 9mm pistols.  One article
	mentioned "not enough chamber support above the feed ramp" as
	a factor in blow-ups.

o	Slam-fire problems plus the above problems are the reasons for the
	largest Glock upgrade (about 320,000 pistols which was manufactured
	before Oct. '91).

o	The article also goes on mentioning that '92 is the most difficult
	year for Glock, with frequent problems of slam-fire and blow-ups
	reported in from the law enforcement and civilian markets.  Karl
	Walters did not deal with these problems fast enough and thereby
	unable to suppress the media impact.  I guess this will hurt Glock
	in present and future sales (as illustrated by the Mass State Police
	deal).

Well, I don't have the articles with me at work, but will bring it in later
and maybe I can quote directly from the articles if you want specifics.
Well, if i have time too...

BTW, I still think my Glock 19 (recent mfg.) is the best 9mm around! :-)

-tt
From: rdh@sli.com (Robert D. Houk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: TZ75 Guide Rod
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:03 GMT

#I'm looking for a recoil spring guide rod for a "long slide" TZ75/klone
#pistol. It needs to be at least 4.3 inches long. Anyone out there in
#net-land know of such a beastie?

Try Brownell's at 515-623-5401 or EAA at 305-688-4442. Just curious, 
how did you end up short a guide rod?

Brian
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:13 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

##        A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would

#Where ya been, Jim? :)
#There are at least 3 such weapons. Two efforts were made in the US, one
#I think by American Arms, the other by Ilarco. Currently such a weapon
#is made somewhere in what's left of Yugoslavia, and has been used in
#combat there.

I should have said machine pistol.
I was thinking something like the Czech .32 ACP scorpion.

(Lest you think I am the kind of person who wants things that
actually exist.)

Even the drum thing would be fun, I've heard of something like
that sold for LE only here.   Small is better.

Jim D
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:18 GMT
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


I've found that you can insure consistency by noting where the collet
nut tightens to on the average cartridge case.  Try to tighten each
to the same point.  Of course those that have a smaller rim diameter
will be loose in the collet if you follow this procedure.  At that point
you can either live with short brass or toss it.  Have you noticed any
pattern as to a particular brand/lot of brass comming up short or long?

-brian
-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:16 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

#From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
#Subject: Re: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
#Date: 12 Jan 93 03:10:02 GMT
#In article <bakc.271.726737113@giraffe.ru.ac.za> bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN) writes:
#There is some evidence that serious bore fouling may be more related to
#the composition of lubricant than to blackpowder per se.
#
#Apparently, petroleum in the lube is a no no.

	Interesting.  My brother uses a homemade beeswax concoction to grease
the patches for the Hawken -- spirit of orginality, I understand!

#
#An outfit named Ox-Yoke have come out with a lubricant that they claim
#allows essentially an umlimited number of shots before cleaning the
#bore becomes necessary.  Some other blackpowder suppliers offer the
#same stuff under their own names.

	Right! Ox-Yoke sounds like the stuff he uses for the Minie bullets 
in the Enfield.

#
#Some 19th-century publications hint that different makers' blackpowders
#might have an effect on fouling rates, but it's a little hard to test out
#these allegations since most of the mentioned companies aren't around now,
#and out here we mostly have a choice between Goex blackpowder and Pyrodex
#which isn't blackpowder.

	Right!  The crap we get in this country under the name "black powder"
is not really made for firearms: it is in fact commercial blasting gunpowder
albeit of a fine grade.  Burn rates are very inconsistent and fouling might 
thus be more serious than is the case with purposely formulated shooting 
powder.   Still, maybe what we get is on a par with what was dished out to 
the troops 150 years ago??!!

#Oh, yeah:  while your gun's bore might not be fouled badly enough to
#require cleaning so you can shoot again, corrosion might be doing it more
#harm.  Clean it anyway when you're done for the day.

	Absolutely!  The old cleaning rod and bucket of boiling water are 
mandatory after a day on the range.

Cheers,
Keith Coman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If we pay dogfood salespeople more than we   :  Dept of Management
 do teachers, we should not be surprised if   :  Rhodes University
 our dogs eat like kids, and our kids end     :  Grahamstown, 6140
 up reading like dogs."                       :  Rep of South Africa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:26:12 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> I'm not sure: You certainly need a metal softer than steel, but brass
-> _might_ be soft enough. If I remember the story correctly, this sort
-> of machined brass bullet was tested by the Germans during the Second

 The "brass" jacket on bullets is an alloy called gilding metal.  It is
formulated specifically to prevent leaving smears in the rifling.  I'm
not sure how it compares to more ordinary brasses, if you can use the
word ordinary.  Brass is an alloy with a widely varying composition
depending on what it's for.

 If you found some brass that wouldn't smear in the barrel it would
help, but if you'll dig some bullets out of a backstop you'll notice the
jacketing is usually very thin.  If you peel it, you can see where the
rifling has pressed the jacket down into the underlying lead.  With a
solid brass bullet there'd be more pressure, and you'd either have to
run more clearance or (more probably) use more grease grooves to
minimize the bearing area and allow the displaced metal someplace to go.

 Nothing unsolvable, of course.  It'd just take a little
experimentation.
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:32 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <1iklpoINN6lb@girtab.usc.edu> plaw@chaph.usc.edu (Patrick Law) writes:
##	I doubt it. The stories I read are that people are being killed
##	by bullets that are coming in their windows, not through the
##	roof, or out of the sky. Yes, I have read of deaths caused
##	by more or less vertically falling bullets, but not many.
##*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
#
#A falling bullet is equally lethal except its probability of hitting 
#somebody is smaller than a horizontal flying bullet.

Sorry, Patrick, but you are wrong in saying that.  A bullet falling
vertically seldom exceeds 300 fps vertically but usually exceeds that
when fired.  Most folks that are accidentally hit by a bullet and
killed are hit by bullets travelling horizontally.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:59 GMT
Organization: who knows

In article <51pA02Yu30tq01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, cwr30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Clarence W Rothrock) writes...
# 
#I have a RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II, and I am having problems with the case
#lengths not being equal after trimming.  When I say equal I mean they are as
#much as .020" different.  Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  By the
#way I am trimming .44 mag cases if that would make any difference.  I have
#checked the obvious like the cutter stop slipping or making sure that the case
#is fully seated in the collet.  Is this a problem with all case trimmers?  Is
#this isolated to only the RCBS trimmer?  Is this isolated to my lack of
#experience and knowledge?  Help would be greatly appreciated.

I use the Trimmer II for rifle cases only and have not had any problems.
Why not call RCBS using their 800 numbers. Their service is unbeatable.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:52 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9301101945.AA23812@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:

The judgement potential was high, of course, therefore it was worth
(as it turns out) about $400 - 500 thousand to the lawyers to have
believed the wild scenario previously described.  The jury must
have been totally ignorant of guns/rifles/safe gun handling standards etc.

Truth and courtroom "facts" are often different.
From: ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Source of .308 ammo
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:08 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


WT>After recently subscribing to Shotgun News I have found alot of
WT>sources which sell .308 winchester ammo. I would like to hear
WT>from subscribers, which source has been pretty good for target
WT>ammo. I am aware of the old classical sources such as Winchester,
WT>etc. What do the subscribers think of 1- Hansen Cartridge Company's
WT>.308? 2-Samco Ammunition Depot's .308 from Portugal? 3- What about
WT>the Spanish .308 win by Century arms?  Instinct tells me to
WT>stay away from the Norinco/chinesee stuff.

I haven't used Hansen's .308 ammo, but their 7.62x39mm hunting loads
(soft point) are okay. They're round nose soft points, which I think
rather strange, but they seem accurate enough for utility purposes. The
brass reloads fine. We shoot these - and the non-corrosive Norinco
military stuff - in my wife's Ruger 77 MkII bolt action. Except for
occasional misfires (goes off on 2nd try) due to hard military primers,
the Norinco Chinese stuff is actually very good ammo. We've gotten some
surprisingly small groups with it in the Ruger.

I've also got some Hansen stuff for .303 - again, the reloadable,
non-cor, boxer-primed hunting ammo. Works fine, shoots good.

I would recommend staying awy from corrosive ammo (unless you like
detail-stripping your gun and cleaning it like a muzzleloader with hot,
soapy water), also stay away from MERCURIC-primed ammo if you intend to
reload the cases (the post-firing residue weakens brass - won't hurt the
gun, and doesn't matter if the ammo is Berdan-primed throwaway fodder
either). The non-corrosive Norinco stuff is fine, though - and
newly-manufactured, which is a bonus over the assorted "great bargain"
military surplus stuff imported by Samco and others... some of the
surplus stuff, like the Greek .303 that was available for a while, was
excellent... but all too often it's corrosive, and sometimes it's so old
it misfires a lot. We don't mess with it.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . The early worm deserves the bird!
From: sizemor@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jim Sizemore (alias Gunga Jim))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:09:57 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1993Jan11.032627.10362@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
#
#	I recently read an article comparing the P7M10 in .40 with the
#	9mm P7M8/13.
#	The author was very happy with the .40 version even if it was  
#	a bit heavy.
#	Though very accurate for defrence purposes (180gr black talons 
#	performing the best if my memory serves me right) the 9mm was
#	more accurate with most types of loads.
#
#	So I was wandering if 9mm is inherently more accurate than .40 ?
#	(All else being equal.)
#	Can anyone help me out here, what about other callibers ?
#	I do have a friend who believes .45acp is more accurate than 9mm,
#	is this totally subjective and dependent on the particular
#	guns he uses, or do different callibers offer much different
#	accuracy.
#	What other aspects of the round's design/shape affect accuracy?
#	I'm obviously no expert so don't flame me if this sounds stupid.
#		Thanks in advance for all answers.
#						jd


When I bought my S&W 4013 a few months back, I was expecting less
accuracy than my Taurus 9mm. After all, the 9 had a 5 in. barrel
and the .40 had a 31/2 in barrel and carried a bigger load, and the 9mm
had adjustable sights (which I had taken great care to adjust as
accurately as possible)...

...and the 40. beat it hands down. I was scoring bullseyes practically 
without even trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Taurus. I was just very surprized by
-- 
 #################################################################
#	Gunga Jim		#  If only that damn buzzing	  #
#   (alias Jim Sizemore)	#   in my head would stop!	  #
# Wanted in 6 states, unwanted	#	_______________		  #