HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:32:17 GMT

In <1992Dec22.173928.22565@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>redraw faster.  So, just like I said, they are a speed optimization; my
>first point holds.

Would be true if the speed of switching displays on a single display board
(i.e. swapping the whole screen data) would be as practical. Amiga screens
are fast enough to make changing displays smooth. A software simulation
(even when reduced to flipping screens only) is still jerky on something
slower than a HP Snake.

>BTW, what happens when you run out of Chip RAM?  Let's face it: separate
>screens on the Amiga alleviate the screen real-estate problem in a limited
>way.  Just how many 800x600x8 screens could you open with 2MB Chip RAM?

Matter of fact is that you don't do that since you aren't limited to waste
8 bitplanes for a 20 color GUI or a monochrome text display.

>Please re-read these comments (your own) and tell me that you're not
>describing a speed optimization.

It would be a speed optimization if the software simulation would be useful.
On most machines this is as useful as running MS Word on PC-Task.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Tandy Unveils 16-Million-Color CD-ROM Multimedia system
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:00:07 GMT

In article <1h60ehINNpjm@bigboote.WPI.EDU> jdutka@wpi.WPI.EDU (John Dutka) writes:
>In article <BzMzJ3.86n@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>   When I compare CD-ROM desktop computer systems, I am usually talking about
>>systems with a current OS, detached keyboard, hi-res non-interlaced display,
>>fast 32-bit CPU, 262,144-color or 16-million-color palette, and CD-ROM drive.
>>How does your "professional" CDTV measure up in this regard?
>
>Well, so your definition of 'computer' means all that? 

   No, but that is exactly what Commodore's competition would be if they were
to try to get into the mid-range CD-ROM multimedia market.  All of the systems
that Commodore would be competing against would have at least an SVGA and a
32-bit CPU in addition to several meg of RAM, a detached keyboard, and the
necessary CD-ROM drive.

   I am not making a definition of what a "computer" is.  I am defining the
typical make-up of a mid-range ($1500-$2000) CD-ROM multimedia computer
system.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
From: demosys@gcomm.com (Galacticomm's Demo System)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipsets
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 21:24:55 EDT
Organization: Galacticomm, Inc.




Once upon a time, in a former life, Jerry wrote:

MJ> Suppose I am not interested in real-time embedded systems.  Let's say I
MJ> need an OS which supports the most varying hardware, can handle the
MJ> largest, most feature-packed commercial applications, and has an
MJ> easy-to-use GUI.  Does your real-time embedded OS qualify as a good
MJ> OS in my case?  No, it doesn't, but Windows certainly does.

And right here we have a biased towards "the most varying hardware"
which is true due to the upteem billion different ways that each individual
company in the PC market believe SHOULD be the standard.

"Can handle the largest, most feature-packed commercial applications..."
which suggests that the programs are written before the OS...  Since when?

#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#define REALITY

====================================================================
Christopher L. Kotacka                            Working for, but
clk@reef.cis.ufl.edu                              not speaking for:
A2000 68030/68882 25Mhz 9Meg                      Galacticomm, Inc.
====================================================================

 * Q-Blue v0.7 [NR] *

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>Email replies should include the following on
>>the first line of message text>>   MBBS: Arch
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

================ Making Modems work smarter... ================
From: monster@mbear.apana.org.au (Martin Ozolins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipsets
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn-beta 1.16g (10.12.92) by Michael B. Smith & Mike Schwartz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:24:11 PST
Organization: Bears Incorporated

In article <1992Dec28.210422.18243@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
> Mr. Mike" Passaretti (mrmike@michelotti.ae.ge.com) wrote:
> :
> : jerry> My OS/2 programming experience is mostly with
> : jerry> application-level software using the Presentation
> : jerry> Manager, but I've read a lot about OS/2 design.
> :
> : Right.  We're hearing discussion on what makes an OS from an
> : applications programmer.  That's like asking a day care
> : teacher for advice on conception techniques.  Why don't you
> : listen to the folks who _write_ operating systems and system
> : software for a living.
> :
> 
> Even if I were "just an applications programmer" (and I'm not), why am
> I any less qualified than you to say what is and what is not an operating

Training, experiance etc

> system?  Is a driver any less qualified than a mechanic to say what is
> and what is not a car?  OS's don't exist for OS developers; they exist

Yes

> for application programmers and users; *they* are the ones who define what
> goes into an OS, not you.
> 

Since when ?

So, a person who is writing a spreadsheet for EXEC-8 ( UniSYS OS for 1100/2200 )
defines what goes into that OS ?
What utter rubbish. 

-- 

Martin Ozolins :Internet monster@mbear.apana.org.au
Victoria       :FIDO 3:633/359.6 AMIGANET 41:300/359.6 TRINET 42:8699/8.6
Australia      :Amiga Programmer, UniSYS 1100/2200 Systems Programmer and
               :Qualified Motor Mechanic
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 1 Jan 1993 03:56:22 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1992Dec31.140748.6385@desire.wright.edu> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>	Has any one ever loaded Windows and then deleted MS-DOS?  What
>	happens?  I suppose you at least need the stuff that is called
>	in config.sys and autoexec.bat, and command.com?  Anything else?
>
>	Can you still run "Windows" apps and the file manager?

It's about TIME someone asked.

No, you can't.  The entire system died a horrible death when I zapped
MS-DOS.  Windows, which supposedly doesn't USE MS-DOS code.  NOT.

And, for Jerry's sake, this was WITH FastDisk up.

Greg



--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
From: stevew@mksol.dseg.ti.com (steve wootton)
Subject: Re: VistaPro & clones
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:00:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.103609.6395@desire.wright.edu> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.201806.27708@samba.oit.unc.edu>, John.Carver@launchpad.unc.edu (John Carver) writes:
>> 
>> No mention of Amigas, or the fact that this is hardly new and that the
>> same software, written for the Amiga in the first place, costs a lot
>> less than $130.  

>	Yes, I've noticed this too.  I think the reason is is that most
>	people who use PCs and MACs see the Amiga as a toy ( ignorant
>	SOBs ) and if the software products like VistaPro, SuperBase,
>	and Mathematica advertise versions for the Amiga, then they will
>	not be taken seriously.

Hardly a fair characterization.  I would say that most people who use PCs
either (1) don't see the Amiga at all, or (2) see the Amiga as an
ill-supported, low-volume, niche-market graphics machine that won't run any
of the MS-DOS or MS-Windows applications that they're used to running.

I doubt that any PC user, short of a gamer, sees the Amiga as a "toy."  A
complete non-issue perhaps, but not a toy.
-- 
Steve Wootton  --  stevew@mksol.dseg.ti.com
Hey, don't blame TI... they haven't told me what to say.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 11:30:15 GMT

In <BzKMB3.19v@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> some undergrad named Paul Prescod:
> If I wanted a Nintendo, I would buy a Nintendo.  In today's lingo a
> "computer" is something with a monitor, hard drive and 2MB of RAM.

No, a "computer" is something with RAM, secondary storage, a user interface,
and an operating system. Since most PCs are shipped with DOS, they don't
qualify.

As for the RAM requirements, my A1000 with a 7 MHz 68000 and 512K is a
hell of a lot more useful than a PC with 2M: To run OS/2, you need at
least 4M; NT will require 6M. AmigaOS runs useful applications in 512K.

The Amiga 500/600 can hold up to 10M of RAM directly addressible from
any well-behaved program written since the Amiga came out. To use more
than 640K on a PC you need to install an operating system, use it as
a RAM-DISK, or use it as swap space. And buy new software, of course.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy)
Subject: Re: The 'Screens' debate:
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:11:35 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Dec25.033622.2768@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>In article <72373@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>
>>The Windows MDI is similar in concept to multiple screens.
>
>What is that?

MDI = Multiple Document Interface. It is an API for handling
an application with multiple documents open at once under once
"parent" window. I really don't see how it is like the screen
system on an Amiga at all.


-- 
"Apple's attitude toward its ROM code is a little like that of a rich kid
toward his inheritance. Not actually knowing how to create wealth himself,
he guards what he has with hysterical fervor." - John Perry Barlow
MAIL : IANK@MICROSOFT.COM			 Crime and Puzzlement
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32510 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19331
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 3 Jan 93 09:27:06 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1992Dec31.224229.6981@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, sacke@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeff Hanna) writes:
> In article <1992Dec31.135749.6384@desire.wright.edu> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>	I'll let you know what happens after my A4000 blows up from
>>	having a backwards fan.  I stuck in my A2286 bridgeboard, and
>>	another hard drive, and my internal modem myself.  So far all
>>	is working perfectly but when the computer over heats and dies
>>	it will probably be myfault because a dealer didn't install
>>	the stuff.
> 
> Why don't you just turn the fan around?  If you have already voided your 
> warantee, then you have nothing to lose

	I spent a minute or so inspecting the power supply and fan
	situation, and to me it looked non-trivial to turn it around.
	The fan seems to be mounted inside the PS, thus one would have to
	open the PS to get at it.  That would also require removal of the
	said PS.

	I'd certainly be interested in the procedure if any one has done
	it themselves, not saying I'll actually do it then though.  I'd 
	rather see Commodore make an announcement either way and then
	follow up in the appropriate manner.  This would somewhat vindicate
	my feelings toward Commodore as a non-service oriented Company.

	I suspect the fan will not be a problem until spring/summer when
	the temperature and humidity start going up again.
> 
>>> TomK@cup.portal.com
> Jeff Hanna
> 
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization **

Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32178 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19062
From: nugget@genesis.nred.ma.us (Ralph Barbagallo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Date: 25 Dec 92 04:11:20 GMT
Organization: Genesis Public Access Minix  +1 508 664 0149

In article <kZP0VB3w165w@coyote.datalog.com> cobra@coyote.datalog.com (Ken Thompson) writes:
>> [ bandwidth-reducing deletia... ]
>> 
>> #1.Most Amiga games CANNOT multitask, with, say a download (which is
>> what we were discussing.
>
> 
>As all Amiga owners will attest, this is a bunch of defecation...I've got 
>three right here that do it with no problem:
> 
>carmen SanDiego, Tetris & World Trophy Soccer...
> 
>ANybody else want to list  software they use that'll multitask correctly?
>
>
>           _____         ______________________   _____                
>       |/    |          | cobra@datalog.com   |     |        /\        
>       |\ en |hompson   | cobra@jab.tus.az.us |     |ucson, /--\rizona 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
  Robosport lets you multitask... I think Sim Earth does too... I assume
A-Train does but I'm not sure, I haven't tried it.  A lot of the newer
strategy type games let you multitask..

------
  Ralph A. Barbagallo III
  nugget@genesis.nred.ma.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:35:59 GMT

In article <jbickers.0lzu@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>Quoted from <1992Dec22.055037.29390@usl.edu> by das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A):
>
>> boot off a floppy?  Uh huh.  Then what do the vast majority of 
>> Amigans do?  *Right*.  They swap disks.
>
>    After booting from a floppy, most Amigans just get on with playing
>    the game!
>
>    So your "*Right*" is fallacious and your "swap disks" is a waste
>    of space.

That's just not true.  This Amiga 1000 next to me needs disk-swapping
all the time.  I have piles of floppies laying around here on my 8' long
computer table.  

(You know 'oh, that crashed, lemme reinsert Kickstart, lemme reinsert
WB.  Lemme put in another disk.' routine.  Harddrives, for any computer,
are *great*.)  Obviously, whenever a harddrive-less computer runs large
programs, disk-swapping is inevitable.
>
>> Dan Stephenson                                         das9674@usl.edu  
>--
>*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
>***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***


--
Dan Stephenson                                         das9674@usl.edu  
"Yes Dan, I have heard of Ultima Underworld.  From my point of view it
 appears to be a rather large stick which you seem to be using to beat
 everbody in this group with." -Mark Steyn, comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: marv@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Marv Gordon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:05:10 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>I'll bet the comment referred to the fact that Commodore is leading the
>>damn way and the other folks are just now waking up.  I can remember when
>>IBM said you didn't need color or gfx for computers because all the "real"
>>applications were text based. 
>
>At the time they were right.  At the time all of the software that
>sold..or sold hardware, were text based.

Sure, they were right because that's about all they had... isnt' that the way
it always is with you guys? It used to be that the great graphics and sound
that the Amiga had/has ment it was nothing but a game machine but all of a
sudden people start getting the same on other platforms and they start
boasting about it.!!! Same thing regarding Multitasking.. "oh I don't need it"
"Big deal" Was all we heard... Now that it's becoming available (OS/2... I
don't call Windows a multitasking operating system) your all singing it's
praise.  What a bunch of hypocrits....

UUCP: {tcnet, crash, quest}!orbit!pnet51!marv
ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!marv@nosc.mil
INET: marv@pnet51.orb.mn.org
From: miked@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Mike Danielsen)
Subject: Re: a MB style flame against IBMs
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 11:36:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.201833.13859@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Colin Stuckless (colins@garfield.cs.mun.ca) wrote:
>: >
>: >Jeff, you didn't take that post seriously, did you?  It was just some
>: >ignorant moron pissed off at MB, trying to seem intelligent by being
>: >sarcastic.
>:
>:   No, Jerry. It was a 'real life, everyday experience' that the guy had using
>: a clone and Windows. He didn't like it. He was not impressed. He likes his
>: Amiga a lot more. This seems to be a basic concept that you have yet to
>: grasp.
>:  
>
>Well, to me it seems like he spent most of his "real life, everyday
>experience" in FantasyLand.
>
>:
>:  \`    \~    \-    \  colins@garfield.cs.mun.ca             
>:
>--
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
>| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
>|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+

Well I've heard this story many times from many different people, so I
doubt that he's making it up. Although I avoid pc's like the plague, I
know that we have boards for pc's in our lab that do not work together.

Come on Jerry, don't tell me you've never had problems with incompatible
software and hardware. Maybe you've never added any hardware or software  
to your computer and just use one or two programs?

Mike Danielsen




Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32386 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19227
From: andrey@cco.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 30 Dec 1992 16:23:44 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:

>Besides (AND EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS), despite what was said in
>BYTE and on this newsgroup, here's what the 4000 manual actually says
>in regards to installation of cards:

>"Installation of internal options should be performed by an authorized
>Commodore dealer/service center or by a knowledgeable technicians.
>Commodore will not be liable for any damages or injuries caused by
>improper installation of expansion equipment".

	Well, you're assuming all of us own A4000s (we wish!).  Tell
me where this is in the A3000 manual.  Mine doesn't have one.
The closest thing to it just applies to installing RAM, and the
general disclaimer in front that says C= is not liable for any
kind of damage resulting from the use of this book (I assume the
4000 says the same thing, too).

--Andre

-- 
             Andre Yew andrey@cco.caltech.edu (131.215.139.2)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: freire2a@serss0 (Angel Freire)
Subject: 1200/4000 pricing
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:52:20 GMT

 i was at my local C= dealer just last week and boy did i receive
a most pleasant surprise. i asked him about the current pricing on
the 4000 and the newly arrived 1200. his response was:

$2699 for the 4000
$ 579 for the 1200

as an added bonus, both of these systems were being bundled with both
ADPro and Dpaint IV. those sound like VERY fair prices to me, especially
on the 1200. and the addition of those two packages further sweetens
the deal. has anyone else in the rest of the states seen similar 
pricing and bundles? if so, i think we're headed in the right direction!

Angel Freire
Florida International University
freire2a@serss0.fiu.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Questions about new
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 13:30:09 GMT

In <C05vz8.Ixs@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>   With RTG, will these third-party product completely replace the chipsets?
>As in, will they do everything that the chipsets can do, like copper lists?

No, most companies will sell complete CPU drive dumb frame buffers, because
that's the cheapest solution. They will also adapt SVGA technology like S3
chips. It will not replace the chipset for most people.
BTW, RTG doesn't know copper lists. It knows about ViewPorts and ColorMaps.

Regards
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: Ivan_Pintori@mas.sublink.org (Ivan Pintori)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Numbers of Amiga
Date: 24 Dec 92 03:16:42 GMT
Organization: Mangazone Advanced Services - ++39-6-7029438

In a message dated Tue 22 Dec 92  4:19, Paula_lieberman@amicol.uucp (paula 
wrote:

 P> Ivan Pintori was asking after market research about Amiga owners --
 P> [...]
 P> millions of personal cmputer users."

Paula, it seems to me that you have a quite fatalistic view of the world! 
I actually got some answers, and I'm still back in replaying to all of them
and thanking and saying "Merry X'mas!".  The need of info may be well
covered by a simple question here in theis and other newsgroups.

As a matter of fact, the Italian branch of Commodore told me that they
planned to sell about 200 units of the A4000 in the october-december
period.  They actually sold over 600 by november, had pre-payment for over
300, and had to replan the sales for at least a 1000 units.  That's in 3
months time!

Yes, 1000 units doesn't mean millions, but comparend on the sell of the
A3000 that in about 2 years sold only 5000 units.. well, I'd say the A4000
did pretty well!

Now, I, since then, am working in a way to gather those info togheter.  I'm
making an interactive presentation, and if God helps me abit I'll be making
a show with the Mandala in a Roman expo.  With this I'd like to open 3
stands (2 45's and one 30 Squared Meters).  While 1 will be used for body
painting, the other for a Videogame, and a third one (the smallest) will be
used for showing the system as a mean of presenting figures.  Actually it
would be a GOOD idea to show what the Amiga can do and how the Amiga did in
terms of sale's.

-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

  +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
  |  ARPA InterNet Mail --> Ivan_Pintori@mas.sublink.org                  |
  |  Fidonet Matrix ------> FidoNet:  Ivan Pintori 2:335/330@fidonet.org  |
  +-------- I speak for my Company, 'cause I own the company ;-) ---------+