From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Summary, Trinity vs LDS View fo the Godhead
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:03:19 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <17968@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>
>So you can capture the essence of Mormon teaching about Jesus in
>"lds=brother of Lucifer".  You are truly a case, Tony.

Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a created being and the brother of us all,
including Lucifer (Satan).  That is itself says enough. The Bible
teaches that Jesus created everything, seen and unseen, visible and
invisible. The Creator of ALL matter, where ALL means what it says. You
cannot be brother of something you created.

>>>I am not aware of a single Mormon author who has taught that Jesus was
>>>a created being.
>>
>>I am not aware of a single one that didn't.Perhaps you have references
>>to support your claim?
>
>Well, if you aren't aware of a single one who didn't, it should
>be easy for you to produce some evidence in the form of a
>statement that Jesus is created.  After all, you are the 
>one that made the assertion.  I challenged you, so the obligation
>of proof is yours.

Funny you turned my challenge to you, back on me, but without facing it.
If you don't face my original challenge, I have not reason to answer
yours.  I prefer not to play ping-pong like this, but you cannot just
180 degree my challenge without responding to it.  You give me your
quotes since I challenged first, and then I will give you mine.
fair 'nuff?

>Joseph Smith taught that all of us existed from eternity, and none
>are created.  Are you saying that a special exception was
>made for Jesus?  You need to get your heresies straight!

Then what in pray-tell are God and his wives doing in heaven "creating"
spirit children?

>>Well, which is it, are you "co-eternal with God"?  Have you existed
>>as long as God has?  Or were you created as Spirit children?
>
>Joseph Smith's teaching was that the essence of man is not created. 
>There was never a time at which we didn't exist in some form.
>There was a spiritual birth similar to the physical birth that occurs
>on Earth, but the intelligence that makes up each individual person,
>including God, is not created.  Birth and creation are not the same
>thing.  Creation in Mormon theology is more like organize.  Creation
>ex nihilo is denied.

I agree that in Mormonism that Creation is "organization".  That is true
and a completely different discussion.  Espcially when the Hebrew word
for Create in Genesis means to make "something from nothing" (No Willard,
I am not a Hebrew scholar and ain't claiming to be.  I am simply quoting
many scholars in this statement.

Anyway, back to the original point.  Can you give me some Joseph Smith
quotation and referrences for these things you say are his teachings?
I am not trying to say that you are lying, so please don't think I am
saying that.  But you do keep saying that "Joseph Smith's teaching was..."
and never give referrences.  Could you provide those if what you say is
true?

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
>geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------