HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hoey@zogwarg.etl.army.mil (Dan Hoey)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: How Do You Verify Votes? (was Re: r.m.harley vote acknowledgment)
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:49:59 GMT
Followup-To: dont.bother
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC

In a discussion about mail delays during the voting

steve@bucolix.ece.ncsu.edu (Steve Garnier) wrote:

>>>I briefly considered the possibility you put forth, and dismissed it.
>>>I have never had any email delay of more than one day between university
>>>sites and major orgs such as NASA.

And when I told him to shut his newbie mouth he says:

>I suppose six years experience sending email from NCSU to the world
>still makes me a newbie.

If you haven't learned about mail propagation delays and duplicate
votes, you haven't been reading news.groups.  If you generalize from
the NCSU connections to the net at large you are talking through your
hat.  If you spend six years without learning anything then yes, you
are still a newbie.

>I suppose you'd have me gain "experience"
>by working at an "email elite" site such as zogwarg.etl.army.mil.

I think you should spare us all your "experience", and take your
silly assumptions about *my* sources of experience with you.

>It's not my fault if your site has crippled email interconnection
>pathways.

It's your fault if you start claiming that c.e.i.p.'s don't exist, and
start making unfounded accusations on that basis.

>During and after the previous RMH CFV, several people including myself,
>volunteered to assist voters in delivering email by using our site....
>I didn't hear a *peep*.

To the extent the offer is heard, it was probably dismissed as some
sort of vote fraud scheme.  I would certainly never send a
confidential vote through an address volunteered by one of the
political noises.

>...  Other than sending email and awaiting a reply, exactly how do
>you gather evidence on the validity of an account name or user...?

That's certainly one good way of finding out.  But if you address your
email to ``suspected ballot box stuffers'' it's no surprise you don't
get a response.  I don't usually answer people who can't keep straight
what they know and what they assume.

You're welcome to rave on this as much as you want, but I'm done with
it.

Dan
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: djoyce@black.clarku.edu (Dave Joyce)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.abstract
Keywords: perfect-information deterministic strategic no-dice
Organization: Clark University (Worcester, MA)
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:49:48 GMT

In <BtMLqM.4qy@uunet.uu.net> neilb@scs.leeds.ac.uk (Neil Bowers) proposes
a newsgroup rec.games.abstract for discussion of perfect information games.

I have an interest in such games (many of which are board games and so already
have a newsgroup) and would participate in such a newsgroup from time to time.

>The bias will be towards `ancient' games, but this will not preclude
>discussion of modern games designed with the same ethos.

I don't know why there should be a bias towards ancient games.  The best of
these games we're developed until the twentieth century.  Nonetheless, I'd
like to add to the fine list of topics Neil suggests discussions on the
history of these games.

>Example Games
>-------------
>
>This list is not intended to be exhaustive.  Is there a game here *you* hadn't
>heard of previously?
>
>	Alquerque, Black Box, Chameleon, Chase, Checkers, Chess-type
>	games (eg Shogi, Xiangqi, Shaturanga, Shatranj), Chinese
>	Rebels, Complica, Connect Four, Emergo, Fanorona, Fighting
>	Serpents, Footsteps, Go-Moku (Renju), Golomb's Game, Halma,
>	Havannah, Hex, Hexplode, L-Game, Lasca, Lines of Action,
>	Mancala (Awari), Master Mind, Nine Men's Morris, Nomic, Qubic
>	(4x4x4 Tic-Tac-Toe), Queen's Guard, Reversi (Othello), Ringo,
>	Run, Salta, Skirrid, Tafl (eg Tablut, Fox & Geese), Teeko

Quite a few of these are discussed in Berlekamp, Conway, & Guy's two volume
book _Winning Ways_ as are lots of pencil and paper games as Dots-and-Boxes, 
Hackenbush, Nim variants, Sprouts, Sylver Coinage, and solitaire games.  Some
of Martin Gardner's columns in Scientific American discussed these and other
perfect information games.

-- 
David E. Joyce				Dept. Math. & Comp. Sci.
Internet:  djoyce@black.clarku.edu	Clark University
BITnet:    djoyce@clarku		Worcester, MA 01610-1477
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Alok, soc.culture.indian.american and soc.culture.tamil
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:32:29 GMT

In article <P9KIG5K@taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> In article <1992Aug21.224659.20810@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> >It was because of the organizer (me) that it passed first time when there
> >was not so much negative campaigning and organizer successfully put
> >a coalition of permanent residents and second generation Indian Americans.
> 
> i.e., it passed because the vote-take engaged in massive campaigning of his
> own. 

There was no such massive campaigning as you have alleged here. There was
a discussion before the vote which was quite intense. Besides some posts in 
the name controversy discussion still going on during the vote, only a couple 
of posts were made by me asking people to cast their votes - neither of these 
posts revealed how the vote was going. One of these was made on the USENET 
groups and one on the private email network of permanent residents. 

If these are considered 'massive capaigning', I have to pity your integrity.

> By the time the second vote was run, things were back closer to normal
> and it failed.

That is an utterly distorted view of the state at that time. A 
massive negative campaign against the group as well as me personally was 
going on even as the call for votes was issued. CFV was issued while I was
conducting a straw poll to determine whether to go for another vote or not. 
I distinctly recall that I had cancelled the straw poll as a consequence 
of this CFV. 

The second vote was conducted after a vicious campaign against the group
and me and you have the guts to call it normal circumstances.

I pity your sense of fairness and human dignity.

Alok
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re:  soc.culture.indian.american and soc.culture.tamil
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:20:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.201119.17271@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>What's so damn wrong in reminding people to cast their votes and hope 
>them to vote favorably ?

FMH!

Because, you silly boy, this isn't a VOTE!

It's an interest survey!

If they aren't interested enough to vote on their own, they shouldn't be
voting.

>It is natural to go over this issue again now that net folks are tolerating
>campaigning for soc.culture.tamil.

Well, you can put that down to (1) massive fatigue over a number of really
stupid votes, and (2) the fact that it's at least properly named.

It's your own bloody fault. If you hadn't alienated everyone they
probably *would* be complaining. Now you just come across as a hypocrite
and spoiled child.

>In case of soc.culture.tamil we have people like K. Srinivasan (One of the
>organizers of the group along with the vote taker), Prem Kumar , Aruna
>Venkatachalam, Mr. Bazyar etc. doing the campaigning during the vote.

Are any of them the vote taker?

>Some of the campaigners asked people on email nets to vote YES or
>abstain. There is evidence that this line of campaiging was shared
>by the vote taker as well.

Ah, now present that evidence and people *might* listen. Flaming about
third parties is just going to get a big yawn.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: wes@ice.stx.com (John Shepherd)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.makers.* groups
Keywords: music
Reply-To: wes@ice.stx.com
Organization: Hughes STX, Lanham, MD
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:14:32 GMT

I'd like to express support of the proposals for instrument specific 
groups. Just a few opinions:

  I like the idea of naming the groups rec.musicians.* . As Jeff Lewis 
pointed out, there is a difference between musicians and music fans. 
This can be seen now by comparing rec.music.makers to most of the rest 
of the rec.music groups. While posts on .makers seem to be centered on 
passing on technical and professional information, posts in most of the 
other groups seem to focus on fans opinions of artists, tour schedules, 
favorite recordings, etc.

  As for .keyboards vs. .synth, these should be established as separate 
groups. One for keyboard techniques and the other for all types of 
synthesizers.

  I specifically support the formation of rec.musicians.percussion (or 
rec.music.makers.percussion if you insist). The mailing list is quite 
active and, as a subscriber, I'm  receiving way too much mail. One of 
the current threads is about this very proposal, and although I don't 
believe anyone's taken a poll yet, I think the majority favor the proposal 
and are waiting for the call for votes.

   
                                                                             \
==============================================================================>
         ______                 ____________________                         /
           /  __   _  _  _  _  /__   _  _  ___  __   _  _  ___  __   __  
       ___/  /_/ _/--/ _/\_/  ___/ _/--/ _/_- _/-' _/--/ _/_- _/-<,_/__>

         wes@ice.stx.com     (John Shepherd)    Hughes STX, Lanham, MD
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.babylon5
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:41:30 GMT

In <1992Sep4.151337.21657@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> scoile@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Coile) writes:
>Jennifer E. Levine writes:
>>Although the show is not out yet it has gotten alot of attention and
>>discussion. There are lots of posts about it in the ST heirarchy. 

>I've heard a lot of people make this claim.  Can ANYONE document it?  I can

I was curious too.  I browsed through the subjects of rec.arts.sf.* and
rec.arts.startrek.* and rec.arts.drwho and found a total of 5 articles
which had 'Babylon 5' included in the subject line (excluding the RFD).

I also found a grand total of 25 articles for Blake's 7....

If not otherwise proven, I'll vote NO for rec.arts.[sf.][blakes7,babylon5].
Alt.fan.douglas-adams gets that many posts a DAY and nobody is calling
for a rec.arts.sf.douglas-adams or r.a.sf.hitchhikersguide.

If someone wants a group for Babylon 5 (or Blake's 7), create alt-group.
The discussion so far warrants it, and then you can later ask for
a r.a.sf.b-group.  This is how alt.guitar.bass did it and just look
how favorable the discussion is.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: grohol@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.sf.tv.blakes7
Date: 30 Aug 92 21:30:33 GMT
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL


I have long awaited this RFD and don't see what harm such a logical
discussion group based on this TV show would have. After all,
ST fans have their own damned hierarchy, the least Blakes 7
should get is one meager news.group! grins,

-John

-- 
  John M. Grohol, M.S.    grohol@novavax.nova.edu     Nova University
--::--::--::--::--::--::--  the indigo girls:  --::--::--::--::--::--::--
   "Dark and dangerous like a secret that gets whispered in a hush,
    When I wake the things I dreamt about you last night make me blush."
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.pop
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:09:22 GMT
Organization: On the Brew.

In referenced article, kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
>In article ... ianr@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Ian Rogers) writes an RFD for
>comp.lang.pop. 
>
>I support this. Pop is now over twenty-one years old...

That's true, twenty-five is certainly "over twenty-one".

As one of the original implementors of POP-2 on the ICL 4100 and on the
DEC-System 10, I'm very much in favour.
-- 
Ray Dunn at home    |    ray@philmtl.philips.ca    |    (514) 630 3749
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: herbison@manage.enet.dec.com (B.J.)
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.politics new groups all fail
Reply-To: herbison@erlang.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Littleton, MA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:51:26 GMT


In article <d!hn1ma@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

>sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>
>> Did we take too much in one bite by voting on 40 groups at the same
>> time? 
>
>Ding.  As someone who doesn't participate in t.p.* I wasn't particularly
>interested in spending an hour or two trying to formulate a reasonable
>vote for this reorg.  Forty groups is a *ludicrous* size for a
>reorganization . . . 

I don't read t.p.* and I would much rather see one large vote then
ten or twenty separate votes.  One vote means less traffic in
news.groups and one vote takes much less time to submit than ten
separate votes.

						B.J.
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.politics new groups all fail
Date: 31 Aug 92 02:40:19 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

jkp@cs.hut.fi (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

>The vote for the new talk.politics.* groups is over.  ALL the votes on
>new groups FAILED because there was no 100 yes-vote margin over
>no-votes on any of the groups.

Umpf. So fails, for lack of interest, one of the most necessary reorgs I
have seen on Usenet so far. Talk.politics.misc will remain unreadable for
at least six months.

Anyway, Jyrki, thanks for a job well done. A pity it did not succeed.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nick@sunburn.waterloo.edu (Nick Fitzpatrick)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.abstract
Keywords: perfect-information deterministic strategic no-dice
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:23:07 GMT

Well it would certainly appear that Diplomacy well fits your description, as it
is a purely strategic game.  Now diplomacy already has its problems in Usenet, it is
split bewteen the groups rec.games.board, rec.games.pbm and bit.listserv.dipl-l

Despite my repeated efforts, I can not get people to use rec.games.pbm for
a lot of the Diplomacy stuff, so for a lot of stuff, I cross-post to
rec.games.board  (after all Diplomacy is first and formost, a board game).

As far as I can see the bit.listserv.dipl-l distribution is very limited . . .

So my problem with rec.games.abstract, is that Diplomacy would then be split between
4 newsgroups, rather than just 3.  Therefore I will ask all the diplomacy players
(and we have almost 800 registered in the Washington Adjudicator alone) to vote
against rec.games.abstract.  Though perhaps something can be done to allow
for the creation of rec.games.abstract.  I will withdraw my objections if the addition
of the newsgroup rec.games.diplomacy, is added to the ballot.

Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu (Charles Shub)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.travel.marketplace
Organization: University of Colorado at Colorado Springs
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:41:22 GMT

count me in favor of this, but might rec.travel.forsale or rec.travel.tickets
or some similar name be better to catch the newby postings that are cluttering
things up?  I'll support the new group whatever the name.
-- 

charlie shub  cdash@cs.Colorado.EDU      -or-        (719) 593-3492     
  or even  cdash@colospgs (BITNET)  if the above address won't work
From: gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.sf.babylon5
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:29:53 GMT
Organization: Megadodo Publications, Light City, Ursa Minor Beta

hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

>    Personally, I have no problem with there being an alt.tv.* group for
>this hsow, but I still think that we need to see what kind of traffic
>its going to get in rec.arts.sf.tv before hand.

<blink> <blink>  Isn't that a bit backwards?

Er, um, perhaps you are thinking of something like:

        rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.trial

After all, we went through all that work to create a new "trial" format,
and still it hasn't been used.

Again, I think we should wait until we have an actual show to discuss
before creating a group for it.

>-Hades (Brian V. Hughes) 

-- gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...)

///   ____   \\\  "Sorry, did I say something wrong?  Pardon me for
| |/ /    \ \| |   breathing, which I never do anyway so I don't even 
 \\_|\____/|_//    know why I bother to say it oh God I'm so depressed.
     \_)\\/        Here's another one of those self-satisfied doors.
       `-'         Life... don't talk to me about life...."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.boycotts.announce moderated, misc.boycotts.misc
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:58:11 GMT

Jyrki Kuoppala <jkp@cs.hut.fi> writes:

[...]
>The groups:
[...]
>misc.boycotts.announce	Announcements of boycotts. (Moderated)
[...]
>misc.boycotts.misc	Discussion on boycotts.
[...]

I think the idea of a newsgroup about boycotts is excellent, but I'm
uneasy at the idea of a moderated announce newsgroup.

I'm not just worried about a "bad" moderator who would be biased in
what he or she announced. I'm worried about not being able to
criticize a boycott call in the same newsgroup in which it appears.

If there were to be two newsgroups, I would suggest:

 misc.boycotts.specific - Calls for and discussions of specific boycotts
 misc.boycotts.general  - Discussions of boycotts in general

(both unmoderated)

- Carl


--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk (C.E. Thompson)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Vote change?
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:58:06 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <o6@byu.edu>, gritton@alaska.et.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton) writes:
|> d-lewart@uiuc.edu (Daniel S. Lewart) writes:
|> 
|> > I am running a CFV for a new newsgroup.  One person voted "No" and made
|> > a comment.  I replied to the comment.  Now, that person would like to
|> > change their vote to "Yes".  Is this okay?
|> 
|>    The rule (yes, I know -- guideline) is against campaigning, so the
|> point seems to me to be how objective your answer was. If you
|> claryfied some point in the charter, it'd be fine. If you told why the
|> group was worthwhile and should be created, the new "yes" shouldn't count.

If you are going to allow anyone to change their vote (which is the usual
convention in CFVs, but not, I think, in the guidelines) then you certainly
must not refuse to accept a changed vote from this person. It is not the job
of the vote taker to make judgements about why someone has (re-)voted in a
particular way. Imagine what that could lead to...

Chris Thompson
JANET:    cet1@uk.ac.cam.phx
Internet: cet1@phx.cam.ac.uk
From: bloemer@tnt.uni-hannover.de (Arnold Bloemer)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.infosystems.* new groups
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:08:50 GMT
Reply-To: bloemer@tnt.uni-hannover.de
Organization: Universitaet Hannover, Theoretische Nachrichtentechnik

In addition I would suggest to create a group:

comp.infosystems.world-wide-web  (or maybe comp.infosystems.www)

Joseph C Wang describes World Wide Web as follows:

  World Wide Web (WWW) is a hypertext project which seeks to build a
  world wide network of hypertext links.  There are several different
  browsers for this system including a simple tty interface.

World Wide Web has similar intentions as the gopher, WAIS and Hytelnet systems.
The user community should be large enough to make it desirable to have
a comparable group to the groups: wais, gopher and hytelnet in the 
comp.infosystems hierarchy.

The newsgroup could serve as a replacement or supplement for the mailing-lists 
www-talk@info.cern.ch and www-announce@info.cern.ch. 

Arnold

---
Dipl.-Ing. Arnold Bloemer          Universitaet Hannover
                                   Institut fuer Theoretische Nachrichtentechnik
                                   und Informationsverarbeitung
bloemer@tnt.uni-hannover.de        Appelstrasse 9A
fax:    +49-511-762-5333           D-3000 Hannover 1
phone:  +49-511-762-5320           Germany
From: mikruutu@sara.cc.utu.fi
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.travel.marketplace
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:39:32 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of Turku, Finland

In article <BtpH3H.2LL@uunet.uu.net>, ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
> NAME: rec.travel.marketplace
> 
> CHARTER:
> 
> This group is for forsale and wanted postings for travel tickets,
> accomodations, discount coupons, and the like.
> 
> Rationale:
> 
> "Ticket for sale" has been a distinct category of rec.travel.air
> postings, and, as such, has been considered by some to be a category
> they don't want to read *all the time*.  Therefore, much as the
> comp.sys.*.marketplace groups have been formed to separate the traffic,
> it has been suggested that a rec.travel.marketplace also be formed.
> 
That's what we were waiting for!
My vote: YES.
-- 
 --    Mikail Ruutu  *  Student of CS  *  University of Turku, Finland    --
 -- Uudenmaankatu 3, 20500 Turku * mikruutu@utu.fi, mruutu@finabo.bitnet  --
 (-:     Warning:  Virus alert !!  My opinions may be corrupted !        :-)