From: hans@Software.Mitel.COM (Hans Johnsen)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Observations from male studentnt
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:20:34 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
>Hans Johnsen (hans@Software.Mitel.COM) wrote:
>: Just thought I'd provide my translation of this article. I HOPE that this
>: isn't what he meant, 
 
>Yeah, sure.

It was an honest wish. Believe what you will.

><about my observations>
>How about yours?  Are they tained?  NAAH!
Yes of course I am biased as we all are. I TRY to recognize my biases
and control them but I admit that I am not always successful.

I'll leave this part here so you can reread it.
>: >     Every day I hear from somehwere in the media something about sexual
>: >harassment in the workplace.  I don't condone it in any way and I don't blame
>: >women, in general, for it - but... I have seen women who instigate it.  I have
>: >had more than one girl tell me that when she went to talk to a teacher about a
>: >homework or test grade she wore a 'short skirt' or 'tight sweater' and I've
>: >seen girls flirt with TA's for in hopes to gain special grade-like favors.
>: >Please don't misinterpret me, I never said that all women do this, but some do
>: >and this encourages that the behavior might be reciprocated to other, more inn-
>: >ocent people.  So don't put all the blame on us (for those of you who have).
>: 
>: The problem with sexual harassment is not with the men who do it, it
>: is with those bad girls who tease men in order to gain their favor.
>: Don't blame men for the crimes they do, blame these terrible women who
>: use our prejudices in order to gain favor for themselves.
>: 
>I guess it is strictly the men's fault that they react the way they do.  The
>women don't know they're going to react that way...that's why they wear the
>tight skirt and sweater!  For comfort, yes!  That's it!

Yes, it is strictly a man's fault if he harasses a woman, unless you
buy the 'I couldn't control myself' BS. Besides, If you reread what he
said, you will see that he was referring to a man harassing a woman who
DID NOT dress provocatively because of (sic) dealing with women who do.

>: My mommy has never been sexually harassed, so it must not happen (my
>: mommy is always right). In fact, mommy says that people who report
>: sexual harassment are just making up excuses for their own ineptitude.
>: By the way, my mom is a woman, so therefore she is wonderfully educated
>: on the topic of sexual harassment.

>No, but her opinion carries as much weight as your or that of the original
>poster...a weight of one.

>The poster states that this is just his mother's opinion, but I guess in your

I concede this point. I made his words into a generalization which, upon
rereading, was not in the original.

>delightfully tolerant and open-to-discussion world one isn't allowed to have
>an opinion if it's different than yours.

Everyone is allowed to an opinion. I am also allowed to try to persuade
them that their opinion is based on faulty reasoning, or that their
experience is not typical.

>: I asked a loaded question where it was obvious what answer I wanted to
>: some manager friends of mine...

>'Xcuse me, wher'd he say they were friends?  Can't you read?

Yes, quite well thank you. I intentionally added 'friends' in order to
point out the informality and non-randomness of the sampling here.

>And why is that a loaded question?  It's a perfectly fair question, actually.
>And they apparently answered it honestly.

It IS a loaded question. What do you expect people to say? He put ALL other
parameters equal and forced them to make a choice (ie: they couldn't
just say "that never happens in the real world"). Maybe they should
have said "I would flip a coin". No, it was obvious that he wanted them
to say they would hire the minority, so it should have been no surprise
that they did.

>: woman over other people because of quotas (despite the fact that most
>: companies do not have quotas). 
>
>REALLY?  What planet have you been living on?  Every company I've
>worked at has 'em.  Government agencies especially, though certainly
>not exclusively.

I have NEVER encountered formal quotas in any company I have had contact
with. I live in Canada, so I am willing to believe that the situation
is different in the US, however, I am unwilling to take the word of
someone who has no survey data to back it up.

>I even lost a job to a black woman who
>: was obviously less qualified than me since she scored lower on a basic
>: intelligence test (I won't tell how I found out her score). Of course
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I notice you didn't address this point.

>: these tests are completely unbiased, and are definitely the best
>: predictor of who would have been better for that job.
>
>If they are not worth much to measure intelligence (and I personally agree
>that they're not), then why are they used so much?  And why are they

This is a good question, to which I have no answer.

>"overlooked" by admissions officers at most universities when it comes to
>blacks and Hispanics?  No, I'm not making this up.  Many universities admit
>that they do this, and say that the years of poverty and life in the ghetto
>are the reason they are willing to bend scores for "minority applicants,"

The real problem with intelligence tests is that they are poor cross
cultural predictors of intelligence, therefore this type of policy is
(on the surface) quite reasonable. The problem is that race and culture,
while related, are not equivalent.

>: Anyway, this is how I have chosen to deal with losing jobs to mere
>: women, and black ones at that. If you find any fault in the reasoning
>: of this post it is because it is late. I can reason much better than
>: this, honestly. If there are any spelling and grammar errors, they are
>: not an indication of low intelligence or incompetence, it is just that
>: this editor was obviously designed by a benificiary of affirmative
>: action.

>My we're hostile.  His grammer was better than yours, and I thought that 

My grammer (sic) is, as far as I can see, correct. If you can find some
problems with it please Email them to me, as I am always trying to
improve my communication skills (this IS an honest request).

>by your own reasoning, objective tests don't really measure intelligence
>anyway.  Make up your mind.

Let's not forget that I was speaking in his words. The point I was trying
(and failing) to make is: if you think your words/ideas will not be
clear because of tiredness, etc. then DON'T POST. Wait until all your
faculties are with you and decide whether that was really what you meant
to say. Note that I admit to violating this principle myself at times,
but I was usually too tired to know better ;^).



-- 
Take off all your clothes and walk down the street waving a machete
and firing an Uzi, and terrified citizens will phone the police and
report: "There's a naked person outside!" - Mike Nichols
Newsgroups: alt.feminism