HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Post above re: games vs. reality simulation!
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:53:49 GMT
Organization: McGill University

Sorry! The post <none> above is on the subject
of games vs. reality simulation! Oops!

______________________________________________________________________
|      From the Most Holy Keyboard of:                               |
|      Dr Manfred Kromm, Reverend of the Temple of the Squid God,    |
|      Professor of Quantum Parapsychology.                          |
|____________________________________________________________________|
|           )                               "This won't hurt a bit.  |
|  |========|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO>------      Afterwards . . . you'll |
|           )                                see things MY way!"     |
|____________________________________________________________________|
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Leading Edge Games
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:23:22 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 Excelsior]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.960

This has absolutely nothing to do with the origial thread about realism and 
gaming, ut since people were starting to talk about Phoenix Command, I just 
thought I would do my public service bit for all of those who follow Phoenix 
Command but have not heard of or seen the latest additions.  I do not have 
these yet so I will not be making any comments on ontent or quality.
 
     Seen in local gaming store...
 
          Phoenix Command Armour Vehicles Combat System and
          Phoenix Command Armour Vehicle Data Book
 
I like Phoenix Command and all of that, and I never ran into any trouble with 
the game taking a lot of time (I just don't play with the 100th of a second 
phase rules) but isn't this getting a little overboard???  I would rather see 
the Nemis catalogue come out (Or Barry's Weapons From Hell) than stuff like 
this...
 
Skeksis
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Superhero rp
Date: 29 Sep 92 03:24:18 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1992Sep28.215311.16293@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:
>In article <6353@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>        Well, I'd expect that an experienced user of both systems would
>find it a lot faster to make a CONCEPT character in V&V than in 
>Champions.

>	Well, I think I qualify as an experienced user of both systems, and I say
>that V&V takes only slightly less time.  I ran a V&V campaign once, and for a 

	[chop]

>	Anyway, I've generated NUMEROUS characters in V&V.  The ones that go the
>fastest are skill oriented characters.  Just roll on the small skills table (
>hope you don't get "pet". ) and useually it is just a matter of adding rolls to
>your attributes via "heightened" entries.  Compute carrying capacity and all the rest.

	[chop out rest, all referring to ROLLED UP RANDOM characters]

	Please note that in the bit by me, that you quoted, I say specifically
CONCEPT characters. Not random characters, for which Champions doesn't (to
my knowledge) have any provisions for, but concept ones. Example: Thor,
from Marvel. Build both, one in Champions, one in V&V.

	(It IS in the rules of  V&V to create concept characters without
rolling -- that's one of the NON modifications that people seem to
forget about)


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:21:30 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 Excelsior]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.960

RE:  The man with the rod driven through his brain.
 
If htis is the case I am thinking of, the poor bastard had a part of his brain 
destoryed, the part that controlled his emotions, but not quite as much of his 
brain was destroyed that you mentioned (easy to see where one would get that 
impression though... ;) )  As I recall it was the top of hte man's skull that 
was the most severely damaged...   Anyway, the man did indeed live although he 
was never the same having been left incapable of controlling his emotions and 
also suffering some problem with keeping track of events and having his sense 
of time messed up.  This is not the point of the discussion though, as far as 
I can make out).  Having this kind of thing happen once in a great while is 
fine, even adds some spice to a game, but when the rules allow this type of 
one-in-a-million shot to become commonplace bcause it 'lloks good' or the 
players are the good guys and you don't want them to fail (see Script Immunity 
in The Star Wars RPG) then there is a problem with that game design.
 
Skeksis
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Development - pointwise
Date: 29 Sep 92 06:57:59 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:

> For every 2 developpment points spent (or points gained in a particular
> skill/stat) you must *subtract* one point (from a skill/stat).
>
> Or whatever ratio you think is proper.
>
> Basically, this will mean that the player slowly devalues the stats/skills
> that are of no use to the character (that s/he doesn't often use) and
> increase those of importance.  A simple way of simulating "rusty" skills.

Unfortunately, that system would more likely foster the development of
characters with few skills other than high-level useful skills.  Who will keep
"violin playing", or "genetics", unless the player already has them at a high
level and uses them regularly?  I even predict that combat skills would tend to
be among the skills that remain and grow.  :(

Skills deteriorate relatively slowly.  For such cases, the GM can probably
simply rule that the player's skill level in a particular skill has been
reduced by one point.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: Storyteller System (Was:  WereVamp->Ars)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:35:18 GMT

durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>	What breaks down is that against a difficulty of 10, having more 
>>dice doesn't really help you: an experienced master is *more* likely to 
>>botch than an untalented beginner. 
>>	No matter how many dice you have, the average number of successes 
>>is always zero. As you get better (more dice), then the chance of successes 
>>increases, but so does the chance of botches. 
>
>Your second paragraph is correct.  Your first paragraph is wrong.
>(IMHO, of course.)  What actually happens is that while the chances
>of a botch are the same for both master and tyro, a master is more
>likely to either fail or succeed in a spectacular way. 

	This is not really a matter for opinion. A 'botch' is any result 
with more 1's than there are successes. For a difficulty of 10, you are 
more likely to get a result of a botch if you have more dice. 

	This is straight probability:
1 die  =>  10% chance of success, 10% chance of botch
2 dice =>  17% chance of success (one or two), 17% chance of botch
3 dice =>  22% success (any number), 22% botch
5 dice =>  28% success (any number), 28% botch
etc. 

	It is true that a master does not have to use all his dice, but 
I don't think this mitigates much. A master should have less of a chance 
of screwing up badly than a beginner regardless of how hard the task is. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | Alice: "But if I wasn't real, I shouldn't be
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | able to cry."  Tweedledum: "I hope you don't
Columbia University         | imagine those are *real* tears."
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: State of the art
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:02:11 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Oct2.030505.1443@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:
> In article <mumble> cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner) writes:
> 
>>Regading TORG:  My only complain was the need to go out and buy $114.00 worth 
>>of suplements to find out what was really going on...
> 
> To be fair, almost every "big" RPG these days is guilty of the "you
> have to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to know everything
> about this game" syndrome.  With multi-genre games like TORG or GURPS
> you really can't avoid this problem though, since each different genre
> is going to produce a sourcebook-sized pile of information.

	Not really true. For Torg, you need the Boxed Set ($25) and the six
main cosm books ($18 each) to play the game, for a total of $133.
	For GURPS, at the basic level, you need the Basic Set ($20) and, well,
it just depends on the genre(s) you want to play. Assuming a 'balanced'
collection, let's say you get Magic ($15), C-Punk ($17), Space ($17) and the
Bestiary ($17). That's only $86 so far. Want Horror? Now you are at $103.
	The problem with Torg is that you *have* to get the 6 cosm sourcebooks
(or so WEG presents it), while with GURPS you only need to get what you want
(and even then you don't need all the supplements! -- I got along quite well
without Space and C-Punk using my copy of The Traveller Book and RTG
Cyberpunk).

	Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: CX6L000 <CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Organization: McGill University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:09:38 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.131416.24084@cs.tulane.edu> eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar) writes:
>In article <03OCT92.01938700.0065@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, CX6L <CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes...

> Might I suggest a possible change.  It works well for me.
> As I said before, I don't feel that even special ops types need
> to have stats and skills as given above.  However, I've never had
> any problem simulating elite guys cutting through the enemy.  Basically
> I make the unimportent NPCs to be 1 shot wonders. They go down at
> the first reasonable hit on them.  Hit location is rarely ever
> invoked when firing on them; its all if you hit.
> Of course some NPCs are 'realistically tough'; these guys are partially
> fleshed out but they aren't as good as the PCs.  Finally, a few
> major opponents are basically made with the same care as PCs.
> I find this to be a lot more cinematic then constantly worrying
> about game kludges such as attempting to hit a certain location.
>Dave

Thanks for the idea. I'm just one of those obsessive GMs who
has databases, and computer programs, and all the rulebooks...
and, and....
..and I have to admit I just like to give the NPCs full character
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jek@csd-d-3.Stanford.EDU (James Edward Kittock)
Subject: Re: Sexist (?) Language in Rules (was Re: Q: Looking for "women's" rpg.)
Originator: jek@csd-d-3.Stanford.EDU
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 22:44:27 GMT

In article <69315@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU (the manatee) writes:
>In article <69180@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7803b@prism.gatech.EDU (Raving Mad Lunatic) writes:
>B
>>
>>It's also incorrect English. "He" is ALWAYS the correct term when dealing
>>with someone/thing of unknow gender.
>
>Yes, but why?  My guess is that language (among other things) has been
>dominated by males, so that naturally they were inclined to make the
>pronoun "he" the default word.  And yes, I am male.
>
>As far as gramarians go, I find it interesting to note that (American)
>english has become the melting pot of languages.  It has absorbed so
>many different cultures, languages, and peoples into itself that IMHO
>ther can never really be a correct set of grammer rules for anthing.  
>At best there can only be vague guidelines. 

Good point.  William F. Buckley would disagree, though!  You also
don't seem too concerned about spelling.  ;-)

--j
From: gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU (the manatee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sexist (?) Language in Rules (was Re: Q: Looking for "women's" rpg.)
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:19:37 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <69180@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7803b@prism.gatech.EDU (Raving Mad Lunatic) writes:
B
>
>It's also incorrect English. "He" is ALWAYS the correct term when dealing
>with someone/thing of unknow gender.

Yes, but why?  My guess is that language (among other things) has been
dominated by males, so that naturally they were inclined to make the
pronoun "he" the default word.  And yes, I am male.

As far as gramarians go, I find it interesting to note that (American)
english has become the melting pot of languages.  It has absorbed so
many different cultures, languages, and peoples into itself that IMHO
ther can never really be a correct set of grammer rules for anthing.  
At best there can only be vague guidelines. 

 


-- 
the manatee                 "What we have here is a failure to 
gt7219a@prism.gatech.edu    communicate bilingually"  SNL 

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.design
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Subject: Re: Question about Wizards of the Coast and The Primal Order
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
	<00961594.DFCD1160@abby.chem.ucla.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:52:23 GMT

   In article <1992Sep28.211721.18544@muddcs.claremont.edu>, wcarone@jarthur.claremont.edu (Bill Carone) writes:
   >
   >  I have read much about The Primal Order on various newsgroups
   >and mailing lists, and have so far been impressed. However, I am
   >unable to find a copy. Could someone get me an address where I
   >could order it? Thanks in advance for your help.
   >
   >Bill.

You can write to us online and receive our catalog and ordering
information at:

	mavra@wizards.com

Or write us directly at POB 707, Renton, WA 98057-0707

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: State of the art
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:18:29 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 Excelsior]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.960

I guess I play a lot of 'off the beaten path' type of games, or just don't buy 
the extranious stuff I don't really need.  But you are right, just about every 
game out there piles on the add-ons...
 
Skeksis
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: franka@owlnet.rice.edu (Frank Alejano)
Subject: Re: Realism Vs. Games
Keywords: phoenix command
Organization: Rice University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:42:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.175220.25180@cirrus.com>, lobby3@cirrus.com (Receptionist Lobby3) writes:
|>
|> 1)  The system is rather complex, and is best used if the GM and all
|> of the players are familiar with the system.  Otherwise, 30 seconds of
|> game time takes 2 hours of real time to play.  It is modular, and so
|> some of the more complex rules need not be used, but if you dont use
|> some of the advanced rules the realism is hurt.
|> 
|> 2)  The company that publishes it has a thing about supplements.  You
|> have to buy 6 books to get all of the different guns, tanks, armor,
|> artillery, etc. they have out. (Actully more like 8 books.  They are
|> by time in history though, so if you dont need the WW II weapons, dont
|> but the supplement.)
|> 
|> We find characters are alot more picky about when and where they fight
|> when a realistic system like Phoenix Command is used.  When a guy has
|> you pinned down with an M-60 in twilight:2000, you can take a hit or
|> two and not sweat it, so why not take a few risks.  YOU REALLY DONT
|> WANT TO TRY THAT WITH PHOENIX COMMAND.  
|> 
|> Does anyone else have any experience with this or other "Realistic"
|> systems??

Yeah- Phoenix command is a nifty little game with alot of problems- the blunt
 protection factor doesn't work, the melee rules are simplistic and
 unrealistic, and the damn thing takes longer to play than any other system
i have ever seen(yes, i HAVE played rolemaster).  Plus, it seems that leading
edge has caught the TSR flu and decided to make sure you can't play without
 sinking $50 for 7 or 8 books- i know i'm repeating what you said, but i am not
 too pleased with the system- it is deadly (unreasonably deadly, sometimes),
 but for most gamers, that would be a minus in my opinion.  Please understand-
 realism is nice and all, but this system isn't as realistic as it is out
 to get you.

							frank
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:06:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Sep29.180604.13042
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University


maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>> 	Yes, but the trouble is that in GURPS is happens all the time for 
>> people of HT 15 or greater. A quick check with a calculator will reveal 
>> that there is over a 50% chance that these people will have to be taken 
>> down to -5*HT in order to kill them. 
>
>You're forgetting bleeding (again). 

	No, I didn't. I just didn't separate bleeding damage from other 
sorts of damage. Bleeding can easily be stopped with a First Aid roll, 
in any case, and is an optional rule. 

>
>HT 15 does give you a good chance of surviving if you get help soon
>(bleeding checks are made at 30sec. intervals). Think about Real
>Life(tm). People don't die instantly after receiving fatal wounds, as in
>most rpgs. It not uncommon at all to have wounded persons die on the
>operating table, on the way to the hospital etc. 

	The trouble here is the massive difference between HT10 and HT15. 
Even given the same amount of bleeding (the HT15 will have considerably 
less), the HT 15 person will take (on average) 90 hits to kill: three times 
the amount of hits (including bleeding) to kill than the HT 10. 

	Also, if you use the bleeding rules, it is easily possible for a 
HT 8 person to bleed to death from a cut of any size. 

>
>As a counter example, let's take a shot from a military laser rifle to
>the vitals. Damage is 2d impaling per shot. Let's assume an average of 4
>shots hitting. That's 8d basic damage, tripled for impaling vitals - an
>average of 84 points. Blowthrough limit is 6xHT (vitals 3x, beam weapon
>doubles). The average hit does not kill our HT 15 guy outright
>(necessarily), even though he is at -69 hits and only 6 hits (bleeding...)
>away from certain death. 

	He is also concious, and able to shoot back at no penalty one 
second later, and will likely stay up for 30 or so more turns. After he 
drops, a good First Aid roll can stop the bleeding, after which point 
he will spend a long time healing. 
	This is a somewhat deceptive example, because a military laser 
rifle is quite a powerful weapon, not very different from my bazooka. 
	A person with a knife will have to spend quite a while stabbing 
to produce this effect. The average person stabbing a large knife into 
his vitals would have to plunge it in 18 times before he finally dropped, 
and most likely he would still be fighting at almost full effectiveness 
the whole time (Half move, I know). 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "Deservin's got nothing to do with it."
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |
Columbia University         |                - William Munny, 'Unforgiven'
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Development
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:17:35 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 Excelsior]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.960

The important thing here, the *really* important thing, is that everybody know 
just how far they can go.  It is no fun for a new player to suddenly be hit 
with a ground rule no one mentioned to them before.  Other than that, so long 
as we are gaming and having fun... ;)
 
Skeksis
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2583 rec.games.frp:25207
From: crl0195@hertz.njit.edu (Curt R Lindmark)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: shadowrun and Death.
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:37:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: njitgw.1992Sep30.183743.16989
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <JALKANEN.92Sep30184343@lesti.hut.fi> jalkanen@lesti.hut.fi (Janne P R Jalkanen) writes:
>This sounds good. I must try it out (hyarrgh, hyarrgh...) Still, the chance of
>death will not increase according to the power level of the gun... It is 
>as probable to die out of a Assault Rifle shot as if you were hit with an 
>Assault Cannon. Not good.

There are two weapon set-ups that I think are the nastiest.  The first is
for hand to hand combat: the monofilament whip.  I took one full force in
the chest in a fight with ninjas.  A sub-machine gun burst later put me on
the deck.  We had to find a magic healer to heal me, as our combat mage only
has Heal Moderate Wounds (he's working on the higher spells).  This taught
us one thing: if at first you don't succeed, run like HELL!!

The other weapon set-up only runs less 20000NY, and will give you
a damage rating of 15(D+2)5.  That's right, a starting damage code of two
stages past deadly.  It includes the following:

		Vindicator Mini-gun		12,500
		explosive ammo			negligable
		normal gyro-mount		 3,500
		improved gas-vent level 4	 1,000
		shock pads.			   100

This results in 5 bursts per clip that an almost guarenteed to put down
anyone, regardless of body dice and armor (well, MAYBE a bodyguard in full
military combat armor (I am a rigger, but I do have a suit of that, it's sweet)
*MIGHT* stand a chance).  I know the Ares LMP runs about 10% of the cost for
the Vinidcator, but the look on the other guy's faces when the van doors
get kicked open and all they see is a rotating blur..it's worth the extra
money.

>	   Personally, I think things are starting to get violent out there.
>
>Good. Now it's time for my players to learn a little bit of subtlety...

And if that fails, SEVERE firepower and fast reflexes always comes in handy.

O========|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|========0
 Curt R Lindmark      crl0195@hertz.njit.edu         Defender from ages past

GM: ok, you can throw a mana ball, but there is a chance that innocent
    civilians will get caught in the blast.
Combat Mage (w/ 7 hits): I don't give a flying f*ck!

Disclaimer: NJIT is responsible for nothing I don't say which isn't mine.