From: milton@PROBITAS.CS.UTAS.EDU.AU ((Simon Milton))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Love & Christianity
Date: 7 Nov 92 14:57:22 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL8]
              Ewanco" at Nov 5, 92 10:19 pm

Eric,

  >It  may appear that we are "fundamentalists," but I'm afraid that seems
  like hate-speech directed at bashing those who disagree with you.

I assure you, I'm not into bashing.  My posting  may  have  been  a  bit
strong, but I wouldn't describe it as "hate-speech."

  Eric:  Those of us who oppose practicing homosexuality do so because God
  has revealed this to us through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Well, if it is Sacred Tradition, I don't see  that  it  is  a  tradition
worth  keeping.  As  for  Sacred  Scripture, the references in Scripture
concerning homosexuality, as it has  already  been  discussed  at  great
length  on  this  list,  are  few  and  far  between, therefore of minor
importance.  If I pick and choose from some recent postings:-

  Alison:  As long as we're discussing Bible inerrancy  (also  in  another
  post):  there  are a number of areas where the Bible contradicts itself.
  It may have been divinely inspired, but it was  nonetheless  written  by
  men  who  were  (as all humans) flawed, and influenced by the society in
  which they lived.
		    Brett:  Some of the difficulties, are admittedly tough
  to explain, but you won't find any major contradictions on any issues of
  major importance.
		     Tom Scharle:  There are books by  some  of  the  more
  single-minded atheists which list all sorts of Biblical problems. On the
  other hand, there are  books  by  Biblical  fundamentalists  which  give
  supposed  resolutions  of  all of the problems.  It is very difficult to
  find a passage which can't be contorted  around  to  mean  whatever  you
  want,  and  thus  it is very difficult to prove these contradictions.  I
  generally find both kinds of  books  boring,  and  the  problems  easily
  explained by anyone who is not hung up on hyper-literal readings.

I  think  these go to show that to hold a completely black-or-white view
on this issue is probably not a winner.  By this I'm not saying that I'm
in  favour of throwing away Scripture and Tradition so that everyone can
rush off and get a same-sex union or whatever - I'm saying that it's not
a pristinely clear, right and wrong problem.

  Eric:   The   Roman  Catholic  Church  teaches  --  infallibly  --  that
  homosexuality (and abortion) are wrong.  We have taught this  for  2,000
  years -- so please don't call us "fundamentalist,"

Fair enough.

  Eric:  we existed long before they did. (We have also believed for 2,000
  years that Sacred  Scripture  is  inspired  and  infallible  in  matters
  pertaining to our faith. This is why we must obey Scripture when it says
  that homosexual sex is wrong.)

Obey Scripture, fine, but isn't that a matter  of  blind  faith?  eg.  I
don't obey Scripture when it proscribes that a menstruating female is to
be  regarded  as  unclean   for   seven   days,   and   other   suchlike
pronouncements.

  Eric:  The Roman Catholic Church is not fundamentalist, but does believe
  that it alone possesses the fulness of truth,  and  that  it  alone  may
  teach  infallibly.  A  careful  reading  of Scripture will show that God
                         ~~~~~~~
  desired to establish a church that would  be  able  to  proclaim
  authoritatively  its teachings.  Those of us who are Roman Catholics, as
  Roman Catholics, accept those teachings which the church says have  been
  revealed  by God and are not free to change.  We can no more believe now
  that homosexuality is morally acceptable than we can  believe  now  that
  Jesus  Christ  did  not  rise from the dead, or that abortion is morally
  acceptable.

That is your interpretation.

  Eric:  It is unfortunate that due to Adam's Fall,  we  cannot  ourselves
  know  right  from  wrong,  and  we are unable to choose good.  Not every
  inclination is God-given -- in fact, most inclinations are  contrary  to
  God's will. Therefore, simply because it feels right does not mean it is
  morally correct -- if this were so, why would we need God?  So  while  I
  empathize  with  you,  I'm  afraid that as individuals, we are unable to
  determine right from wrong authoritatively, and we need God to reveal to
  us  right  and  wrong.  God  has  done that through Sacred Scripture and
  Sacred Tradition.  I am not sure on what you base your moral  standards.
  If  it  is  on anything other than Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition,
  then how can you know absolute truth?

I accept that I cannot know if I am right, being a flawed human being. I
am  not  saying  that I am authoritatively right in doing what I do, and
have God's opinion on the matter.  I have read Scripture and I  am  very
much  aware of tradition.  Why is it then I have a different opinion?  I
resent the implication (citing Scripture and  Tradition  with  Capitals)
that  my  consideration  of  the  matter has been influenced only by the
desire of the flesh.  Hardly!

  Eric:  How do you determine that practicing homosexuality is  acceptable
  to  God?  If  God  blessed  homosexual  unions,  why didn't he make them
  fruitful? I mean, the reason God created sexual love was for procreation
  --  and  homosexual sex is by nature not procreative.  When you and your
  boyfriend can biologically  produce  a  child,  then  we'll  talk  about
  whether homosexual sex is blessed by God.

This  is skirting the issue.  What about heterosexual unions that due to
infertility cannot produce issue?  (And, BTW, how long will it be before
men can be surrogate "mothers"?)

  Eric:  I  would  venture  to  say  that  few  of us think as badly about
  homosexuals as you  think  we  do.  Your  vituperative  condemnation  of
  heterosexuals exhibits the same prejudice and bigotry you accuse us of.

My  posting  was  not  a) vituperative, nor b) condemnatory.  The return
flamings however, did exhibit some of the prejudice and bigotry  that  I
asserted (passively, you might note) certain people might hold.

  Eric:  And  don't assume that all of us who oppose homosexuality have no
  experience with homosexual inclinations.  There are many Christians  who
  have  homosexual inclinations, but firmly believe that homosexual sex is
  wrong, and have received grace from God to live lives free of homosexual
  relations.  For some of these celibate homosexuals, their experience has
  for them conclusively  demonstrated  that  homosexuality  is  inherently
  sinful and extremely destructive to the spiritual life.

I  don't  doubt that.  That is their experience, but mine is a different
one, and not a minority at that.

  Eric:  Many homosexuals find  little  satisfaction  in  indulging  their
  homosexual  inclinations.  And  some homosexuals find relief only in the
  realization that homosexuality is sinful and that God grants  the  grace
  to abstain from homosexual relations.

Not so.

  Eric:  As St. Paul says, do not be ruled by the flesh -- that is, do not
  let your fleshly inclinations tell you what is right and wrong.

You mentioned it first, cobber.

  Eric:  The flesh is under the influence of Satan and can deceive.  Right
  and wrong can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit.

From  everything that I can tell, the Holy Spirit has worked through our
relationship.

  Eric:  The fact that you love your  boyfriend  is  no  more  proof  that
  homosexual  sex is morally acceptable in God's eyes than the fact that a
  man desires a woman is proof that it is morally acceptable in God's eyes
  for  that  man to have sex with that woman.  If I have an inclination to
  steal, does that prove it is morally correct? If I have a burning desire
  to  have  sex  with a cow, does that prove God finds such an act morally
  acceptable?

This is a bit silly, isn't it?

  Eric: Do not trust things which can deceive. Trust only in God, and know
  God's  will  through  his  revelations  of  Sacred  Scripture and Sacred
  Tradition.

This seems to me to be an arrogant assumption on  your  part,  that  you
have  a  definitive  knowledge  of  God's  will  revealed through Sacred
Scripture and Tradition. Most people would agree that Scripture requires
at least some interpretation.

Flames off,

Cheers, Simon.