From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: TOO YOUNG TO CHOOSE
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:37:21 GMT

In <1992Nov5.164425.16148@nas.nasa.gov> dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes:


>In article <1992Nov3.210902.3556@ncsu.edu> jjprice@eos.ncsu.edu (JEFFREY JAMES PRICE) writes:
> 
>>On this point we are both right. There are always exceptions and always rules.
>>I favor a 24-hour waiting period. This will give those that did not do
>>enough "soul-searching" time to do so and for those that already have while
>>a minor inconvience it will not change the desicion they have come to.
> 
>Heres a better and easier to implement solution Jeffrey.  Why don't we
>just ask the woman, "have you carefully considered this decision?" when 
>they go to procure an abortion?

You are assuming they have access to reliable information, don't you?
you are certainly implying this in your response to the following
paragraph:
 
>>Also fully inform the female of the Pro's and Con's of the issue. This
>>would allow the uneducated to know what they are doing while those that
>>have already come to a thoughtful well informed decision it would only
>>be a minor inconvience.
> 
>I have a better solution here to.  Why doesn't the clinic ask them 
>when they show up, "Have you made a thoughtful and well informed 
>decision?" 

"Well informed about what?" is the natural question, but many women are
not assertive enough to ask it.  

>>One way to at least partially solve the problem would be to get better
>>conselors from clinics.
> 
>Do you have specific problems with the current counselors?

I do.

From my July COERCED ABORTION post:


	At the time the events happened, she was married to a student
  at my University, having wedded in secret because he had gotten her
  pregnant.  Only a few weeks later, he changed his mind about wanting
  a baby and started pressuring her to have an abortion, threatening to
  leave her if she did not.  She relented to the extent of seeking 
  counseling at the local Planned Parenthood, hoping they would see things
  her way.  Instead she was lectured on how selfish she was for wanting
  the baby, and was told that her twelve week fetus was "just a clump of
  cells." 


>Have you ever talked to a woman that got an abortion?  I have talked
>to a few and I have yet to meet one that got an abortion because
>she wanted to kill and snuff out the life of the fetus.

Such women do exist.  Your sample was too small.

>  As far as 
>my own personal research goes, the women that I know that procured
>abortions did it because they did not want to be pregnant. 

You had a biased sample, then.  Many if not most women want to have
an abortion because of what happens *after* the pregnancy, not 
*during* the pregnancy.

>Jeffrey, I'd advise you to talk to women.  You seem to be having
>a difficult time seeing them as fellow human beings.  The ones
>I have known are perfectly capable of making major life decisions
>without your, mine or the government's help.  The ones I know are
>not as flightly as you may think.  They don't go down to the
>abortion clinic on a whim.  By the time they get there, the ones
>I have known have already given the decision a lot of consideration.  

See my excerpt above.  Here is the continuation:

	Rather than have it done at Planned Parenthood, which was reputed
to skimp on anesthesia, she agreed to have it done by her gynecologist,
who is also the biggest provider of abortions in Columbia, with over 
1,500 a year.  [Since his office is only four blocks from campus, many
students get "fixed up" by him.]  Once inside, away from her husband,
she was given Valium and iv Demerol to kill the pain that was to come.
But she had done Valium and other drugs recreationally, so she was still
well aware of everything around her.

	Soon the screams of the other patients got to her, and as her 
turn came, she announced that she had changed her mind and wanted to
go.  Instead she was forced to her back and her abort/gynecologist
began to go to work on her.  

	Repeatedly she screamed, "Let me go! Don't kill my baby!"  
"That's just the anesthetic talking through you.
You'll thank me when this is over," he responded, and he completed the
procedure, as the value-free terminology goes.

	Correction: the abortion was an incomplete one.  
Bits of the fetus were left inside her womb, so that, despite her 
taking antibiotics as prescribed, she developed pelvic inflammatory
disease and passed out while visiting her in-laws in Charlotte.
She was rushed to a hospital and, upon discharge, was told to call
the abortionist on returning to Columbia. She did, and he avoided her,
saying things like, "That's not my problem." and "Go to an emergency room."

	She divorced and remarried.  More than ten years have passed, 
and despite having a loving husband and children,
she still has recurring nightmares of hearing a screaming baby and
finding a bassinet full of blood.

Peter Nyikos

Xref: sparky talk.abortion:47725 alt.abortion.inequity:5046 soc.women:19400 soc.men:19143