From: elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen)
Subject: Re: Faerie Folk (more pedantry that has nothing to do with gamin
Organization: Chambers of the Archmage
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 10:15:39 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

David H. Thornley (thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu) wrote:
: Is this a private flamefest, or can I join in?  (BTW, this is posted only
: in .advocacy.)

  Is there such a thing as a truly private flamefest in news?

: In article <20JAN93.23287310.0073@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CX6L <CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes:
: >In article <2223@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
: >>In article <20JAN93.17014526.0219@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L) writes:

: OK, define a computer virus in the basic GURPS rules.

  A computer virus is a program. It isn't built with points, it's bought
with money (or written with skills).
  I'm not sure there is a good way to define a computer virus, but there
are numerous computer mags and usenet where You can try to find one.

: Hero has a way
: to apply the basic rules directly to cyberpunk, as in Cyber Hero.  GURPS
: requires additional rules, as in GURPS Cyberpunk.

  I've played cyberpunk with GURPS rules before GURPS Cyberpunk was
published. We didn't nee any special cyberpunk-rules, we made them up as
we needed. That's sometimes called creativity...

: Mind you, I'm not saying
: that Cyber Hero has the better approach, but Hero is certainly more
: universal in this case.

  OK. I usually make intelligence oriented characters that are good with
computers, math, phys, electronics, and so on. I've heard (never played
HERO) that it's very cheap to create a nobel-price scientist in HERO. Is
this true? Could my characters be created with fewer points than the
combat oriented ones?
  If it's true that HERO doesn't much care about sciences and other
non-combat oriented abilities/skills it isn't universal. If it takes
thouse into account as well as combat, it perhaps could be called
universal (there are lots of other things to remember, though).

: BTW, GURPS has a bias towards realistic genres.  It's hard to design
: characters that won't die easily without spending gobs of points on HT,
: which is not necessarily in the character conception, and it's hard to
: run a superhero battle in a city without killing *large* numbers of
: civilians.

  It is possible to create a character that isn't easy to kill. Good HT
is one way. Hard to Kill -advantage is another. Extra Life is one more.
Then there is DR in supers. And PD. And absorption, reflection... Extra
hit points can be bought separately. And four-color supers are often
created with lots of points, they can afford these.
  If supers don't wreck buildings and vehicles where there are innocent
bystanders inside, not killing innocents is easy. Don't use spray fire.
When you have a minigun and shoot wildly around someone is bound to be
killed. Bullets, even plastic ones, harm people. Then there are stun
rules. And a lot more.. But, if someone with ST of Hulk kicks a
bystander aside, the bystander most often dies (unless the player said
he didn't use his full ST, just ST 20 or so).

: It has a bias towards genres with muscle-powered weapons, as
: ST costs too much in genres with more sophisticated technology.

  In a space game (base TL 13) I have a character with ST of 16 or 17.
He uses often axe (which doesn't mean he couldn't use other weapons or
didn't have them, he just happens to like the axe). He's MEAN. He's BIG.
He can run for a long time with lots of load in the backpack. He can
stand in hi-G planet as other collapsed around him (until he put their
contra-grav belts on).
  Then someone tells me ST costs too much.. I want more points so I can
be even STRONGER and MEANER because ST isn't worth as much as the book
says it is, I was told so! (no, I believe the points I spent on ST were
well spent).

: It has
: a bias towards starting characters at ages 20-30, as that seems to be the
: proper balance between buying stats and buying skills.

  Depends on the GM. And, with normal 100pt chars I usually spend less
than 40 on skills (I buy advantages also). It isn't a valid rule in
special-ops, high-point, or other campaigns where cicumstances are
totally different.

: It virtually
: forces good mages to be highly intelligent and have fairly good
: social skills.

  Perhaps the GM can let you buy Magery over 3 with some 15 points a
level? Of course he would put some other limit to it, or use UB, or
something else. I used UB for those who wanted magery over 3.
  I've got a mage in a supers campaign. He's got more than ten levels of
magery and his IQ is only 13-15 (don' remember exactly). But, that was
supers with 600 points... And I certainly did pay UB for it.

: These features certainly don't make GURPS a bad game,
: but it isn't truly universal.  It has difficulties with Marvel/DC
: comic book genres, Saturday-morning cartoons, modern technology,
: and transferring characters into rabbit role-playing (the numbers don't 
: mean the same thing in GURPS Bunnies & Burrows).

  I've played four-color supers games with GURPS rules. We had lots of
fun. Usually innocents that died died because a demon decided he's
hungry or something else. But less than ten innocents have died in more
than 10 sessions.
  What? GURPS has difficulties with modern tech? I've played special ops
campaigns ranging from 1982 to 2004, and we had no problems with the
tech (even though some players knew more about guns, airplains,
helicopters, tanks, and whatever than is normal). And those are not all
contemporary campaigns I've played in.

: It is difficult to
: construct a top-flight mage or scientist who can't talk his/her way out
: of a paper bag, a dummy who has been given great magical ability by some
: god,

  With the mages, try higher magery. With the scientist, try some social
disadvantages.

: a modern-day competent and extremely strong soldier,

  I've created some.

: or a guy who
: has no great talent but who has been around forever and has picked up
: a lot of skills.

  Buy the skills, let the attributes be low.

  All the character types You mentioned could easily be created. The
point total is another thing. And if the GM lets such a character into
his game is one more (it has some correlation with point total most
often, but isn't strict unless the GM isn't a good one).

: You may very well not like the problem genres, and
: you may never have wanted to build one of the difficult characters, but
: just because the system is biased the way you like it doesn't make it
: unbiased.

  I admit, I've never played Bunnies and Burrows. Is that the problem
genre you are talking about?

: I don't like GURPS advantages and disadvantages.  In most cases, they are
: listed in painful detail, with no provision for variation in case your
: character conception calls for something similar.  A few, like Unusual
: Background, are thrown wide open for fast-talking players to try to
: exploit hapless GMs.  In Hero, if you want to design a Lecherous character
: with a difference, it's easy.

  Modify them. Be creative. Create a character, then, with the GM,
create it with GURPS guidelines.
  Most special effects of the advantages and disadvantages are just
that: special effects with no point cost. If you want some significant
difference that has game effects, the point value is different. Most
things you'd like to create can be created easily (with just the basic
book, although I usually use more than that).

: Of course, the supernatural power system isn't universal like Hero.
: In GURPS, you have the magic rules and the psi rules (both available
: in full form in the supplements and reduced form in the basic rules)
: and the superpower rules and alien powers and such.  In Hero, you have
: one set of rules, completely described in the main rulebook, and you
: can create magic rules, psionic rules, superpower rules, alien ability
: rules, cyber ability rules, and everything else from it.  Now that's
: being universal.  The power system allows you to design individual
: spells or powers or whatever to match your character design, and
: allows the GM to tailor the rules to match his or her campaign design.

  Since I haven't played HERO, I won't comment on this. But I believe
there is some drawback you didn't mention (why isn't hero as popular
here as GURPS is? I don't know a single HERO player but know many GURPS
players).

: With good GMs and good players, what the heck do you need all these rules
: for?  Why do you need all the carefully listed ads and disads with their
: precise game effects and exact costs?  Why do you need the detailed
: discussion of point costs?  GURPS reads like it was designed to be a lot
: less abusable than Hero.  If it really does attract all the mature types,
: why?

  Because the system is a good one, suited for all the genres I've
played, the character creation is easy, the rules are flexible...

: As far as trying to build PCs, somebody on this net a while back wanted to
: build a grizzled old mercenary with low attributes but lots of skill, and
: found that she couldn't afford the character as it existed; she would have
: to raise the stats and make the character more generally competent in
: order to get it into the 145 points.

  If the GM says it's 145 points, no more, no less, then it might be
true. If the GM is flexible, the point total isn't any strict rule.


  OK, many things can be done with many systems if the GM and the
players are good enough. I just happen to like GURPS and have noticed
that it's easier to use GURPS system than some other that would have to
be rewritten to suit our gaming style.
-- 
Elandal		(aka Ismo Peltonen)			| Hanuripolku 5B15
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