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X-Envelope-to: PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:27:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Discrimination, Censorship, and Inadvertant Insults

Dear Psychgradders:

        On 11/21/92 I had the following exchange with a
Psychgrad reader.  I decided to post it because I think it
clearly indicates the point of all these exchanges between Tim
and I, and also, suggests some censorship that we might like to
discuss in a different discussion.

First, the message from the reader:

>On Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:35:00 EDT <KMORGAN@WHEATNMA> said:

>>PS--I never let my undergrads get away without an operational
>>definition of their terms, either!  :-)
>>--Kathy

 >Aw common, Kathy.  Chill out.  Are you saying that you
>operationally define all terms you use?  I think your just
>drilling Tim to the wall because he put himself in a
>vulnerable position by using a politically loaded, somewhat
>ambiguous, and hard-to-define term.  If you just don't like
>the word "feminism" the way he uses it, say so (I think you
>have) and leave it at that.  Please let's not get
>this petty.

To which I replied:

>You're exactly right--I am "drilling Tim to the wall because
>he put himself in a vulnerable position," but it >wasn't
>because the term he used, "feminist," was "politically loaded,
>somewhat ambiguous, and hard-to-define term.  I'm very angry
>about this, in case you can't tell.  And I am suprised at this
>idea you seem to express here--that his use of the word
>"feminist" like that was okay on this list.  Suppose instead,
>that he had said "bitter, angry, and humorless blacks," or
>"bitter, angry, and humorless jews," or "bitter, angry, and
>humorless gays."  Would THAT kind of global labelling be
>okay?  Is it okay to globally define some groups but not
>others?  What groups are politically "in" these days?

>>If you just don't like the word "feminism" the way he uses
>>it, say so (I think you have) and leave it at that.

        >Oh, but I don't KNOW how Tim is using the word
>"feminism"--that's the point.  And it wasn't feminism--it was
>"feminist."  The first word refers to a group of ideas--I'd
>have less of a problem with that.  I agree with (the many
>pieces posted on this list) on flaming that ideas are fair
>game as cannon fodder.
        >But a "feminist" is a PERSON--and people, I thought,
>on this list, are NOT supposed to be so treated.


>>Please let's not get this petty.

        >I hope you can see by this memo that I don't consider
>this "petty," at all, and I am disappointed to see the idea
>conveyed in your memo that it is so.

--Kathy Morgan
kmorgan@wheatnma.bitnet

        I hope this helps to explain a little of my doggedness
on this particular issue.  Sorry, Tim, for not explaining my
relentless pursuit a bit better prior to this.
--Kathy
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 10:24:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         DON GALLOGLY <GALLOGLY@CWU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: departmental sex

>I was wondering if many of your profs had married colleagues/former
>students/people they went through grad school with.

It has happened here and at the school where I was an undergrad.  Here a pair
of faculty members apparently got divorced from their previous marriages in
order to marry each other.  Where I was an undergrad, a prof divorced his wife
to marry a grad assistant.  After that, the new wife wouldn't let him have
female GA's.

>Also, in your departments, is it considered "taboo" to date people in
>your programmes?

No.  Lot's of people are doing it.  I came to this program with my fiance we
have never concelled the fact that we are dating.  Other's in the program are
dating also.

Don Gallogly
GALLOGLY@CWU.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:10:15 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Margaret Joppa <joppa@PSYCH.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Feminism

I totally agree with Rick's sentiments regarding the censorship of porn
(ie, censorship is bad for everyone).  I would like to talk about equal
treatment, however.  In the context of censorship:  When I was at U of MN
there was a big battle over whether Playboy etc. should be sold in the
commons candy/ magazine shops.  The "against" people didn't want porn
being sold at all (censorship), and the "for" people just wanted to buy
their 'zines without having to go downtown.  Nobody ever suggested it but
I think that equal numbers of 'zines objectifying men should be sold to
offset the numbers of 'zines objectifying women.  Objectifying the opp-
osite gender is definitely NOT something that should be promoted, but there
is something to be said for equal representation.
M. Joppa
From: jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK (Julie Marie Williams)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: Re: Discrimination
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:57:39 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 18 NOV 92 19:57:29 GMT

Kathy,

I think I agree with you on your rationalisation for being a "token".  But
how amenable to change do you think this "tokenisation" is?

(Oh, no, not this argument AGAIN!)

Julie
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:24:08 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         20SSMITH@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      Diversity on the network

Several days ago I sent out a posting asking if there were any other
Black women on the psycgrad network...the deafening silence tells me
the answer is NOT!  So, I am broadening the scope of my question and
would like to know if there are ANY other ethnic or racial minorities
out there...also can someone tell me how many "members" (is that the
right term) are subscribed to the network.  From reading the discussions
there appears to be a fairly nice mix with regards to gender and this
certainly keeps the responses interesting and heated on many topics...especially
   those that are related to social issues...but is gender diversity the
extent of the demographic mix here...okay, waiting to hear from you.

Sybil
From: PLOWRY@NERVM.BITNET (Paul Lowry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: Homophobia in Prisons
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:03:27 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I am begining a literature review about Homophobia in the Prison setting.  Can
anybody help me with must have references?
                                   Paul Lowry and Kay Martin
From: KPUAV@HUJIVM1.BITNET (AVISHAI ANTONOVSKY)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: CRIMINOLOGY LIST
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:34:31 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Hi everyone,
Does anyone know if there is a criminology list, somewhere in e-mail land?
If yes, I'd appreciate the info sent directly to me, at
<KPUAV at HUJIVM1.BITNET>
Thanks,
Avishai Antonovsky
From: industry@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Mark A Bialik)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: I/O Newsgroups
Date: 17 Nov 1992 07:51:06 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.30
Originator: industry@convex.csd.uwm.edu


Hello,
I'm a grad student in political science at the University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee.  My main interests are organizational behavior and
industrial psychology.  Is there a newsgroup that any of you know of for
these interests?  Any info is appreciated.  Please mail directly to my
address, since I unfortunately can't monitor this group as much as I'd
like.  Thanks again.

Cordially,
Mark


-- 
Mark A. Bialik  AT&T: (414)271-1619   USMail: 1864 Cambridge #3
Department of Political Science               Milwaukee, WI  53202
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
InterNET: industry@convex.csd.uwm.edu (or) industry@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:36:12 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Jeff Kline <egkline@BEFAC.INDSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      ADHD

I find it funny that after reading all of the ADHD discussion on
PsychGrad that I heard only one or two people mention treatment in
the context of the family (Someone mentioned behavioral approaches
and the family and someone else may have mentioned helping the
family deal with their problem child).  I do not feel that this
"disorder" can be isolated to just an educational/school behavioral
problem.

I have very limited experience with ADHD children, but in working
with families as both a therapist and a consultant I have seen time
and time again that behavior of the child is very much influenced by
the relationships in the family. The underlying theme that I feel
that pervades the discussion on ADHD (and othr "Disorders") is that
the client is a REACTIVE being that needs to be fixed. This feeling
is nothing that I can adequately tie down o specific words, but just
a reaction to what I am reading.   When working with people I tend
to like the approach of treating the person as a PURPOSIVE being; a
being that is acting on their environment not just reacting.

Just my perceptions.

Jeff
              ********************************************
              *               Jeff Kline                 *
              *        Indiana State University          *
              *                                          *
              *               "TANSTAAFL"                *
              *                                          *
              *                 InterNet:                *
              *        egkline@Befac.indstate.edu        *
              *                                          *
              *                 BITNET:                  *
              *              Egkline@indst               *
              *                                          *

 ********************************************





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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:52:23 -0700
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         irremediable lascivious galivanter <MONCRIET@CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Diversity on the network

I belong to one race...human.
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Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 16 NOV 92 18:11:30 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:11:21 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Julie Marie Williams <jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>
Subject:      RE: Feminism

M. Joppa writes:

> I totally agree with Rick's sentiments regarding the censorship of porn
> (ie, censorship is bad for everyone).

Do others agree with this? For example, what about young kids; should/would
they be protected from porn in order to "shelter" them?

>I think that equal numbers of 'zines objectifying men should be sold to
> offset the numbers of 'zines objectifying women.

What do you mean?  Do you mean that equal numbers of the two types of magazine
should be *stocked*?  Surely the numbers must somewhat reflect the demand?  So
would the only solution be to objectify both men *and* women in the same
magazine?

Just curious...

Julie
St Andrews
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:22:16 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: ADHD

DAvid -
Where can I read more on this particular behavioral method? Sunni
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:24:00 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         TBN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      sexism in media ref

Try Erving Goffman's _Gender Advertisements_ 1979.

cheers, Tor
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 10:03:12 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Attn. Deficit Disorder

I have a friend who is 45 years old and he is ADD. When he was a child he
was on Ritalin, but now he is not. Currently he is a priest serving in the
military. I realize this is only one example, but one night at dinner I
asked him if he had ever been diagnosed as ADD or hyperactive, and he said
yes. He is hyperverbal, and still has difficulty sitting still. As far as
other adults, there is literature that says that many of them wind up in
adult life gettin in trouble with the law. Could ADD in adult life begin
to look like Antisocial PD? I'm not sure, but you are right, it is interesting.
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Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 16 NOV 92 17:39:38 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:39:27 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Julie Marie Williams <jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Tolerance

Time for my two penneth (to be different), for what it's worth.  It's hardly
going to be profound, though.
It seems that, although most of the recent discussion on PsycGrad has been
extremely good and interesting, some areas of the discussions have gotten out
of hand a little, and have brought out less than the best side in some
participants.  I don't think this is due to any individual in particular, but
simply due to a controversial topic and the way we're forced, by nature of
this mode of communication, to express our views.  Once an "argument" (as
opposed to "debate") has begun, it's often pretty hard to back down.
But please, guys, the rest of the discussion's good enough, so let's let go
of this one and get on with the rest of the topics which are infinitely more
fruitful.
Please........

Julie
St Andrews
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:20:37 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      How to find a topic on listserv: eg. criminology

On Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:35:35 -0500 you said:
>=>
>=> Hi everyone,
>=> Does anyone know if there is a criminology list, somewhere in e-mail land?
>=> If yes, I'd appreciate the info sent directly to me, at
>=> <KPUAV at HUJIVM1.BITNET>
>=>
>        Please - post it to the list as well. I, and I'm sure others, would
>be interested in such a list.
>

If I were to mail this command to listserv,...
list global /crimin

listserv would send me this file...
=====================================
Excerpt from the LISTSERV lists known to LISTSERV@UTORONTO on 18 Nov 1992 11:14
Search string: CRIMIN

Network-wide ID  Full address      List title
---------------  ------------      ----------
CJUST-L          CJUST-L@IUBVM     Criminal Justice Discussion List
UNCJIN-L         UNCJIN-L@ALBNYVM1 United Nations Criminal Justice Information +
=====================================================================

Neat trick, huh?  Have fun!  Search for lists on your favorite topics.

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:02:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         DON GALLOGLY <GALLOGLY@CWU.BITNET>
Subject:      Gossip?

Hello all,

I have to say I disagree with the views of some people on this list regarding
this discussion of dating within the department.  Gossip is a discussion about
someone that the listener knows.  If I say "someone at my school is sleeping
around", it's not gossip.  Most of you have no possible way of knowing to whom
I am refering, and those of you who do know people in my department would have
to infer the subject.  If you do it's your problem, not mine.

This discussion is *definitely* one that should be of interest to psychology
graduate students, it's not become a personal attack, and so far no specific
people have been mentioned.  In those respects it fits the purpose and customs
of this list, and it's not gossip.

Since I and my fiance are beginning to apply to other programs, I am grateful
to hear a discussion about the feelings in other schools regarding this issue.

Don Gallogly
GALLOGLY@CWU.bitnet
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 16:30:29 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         SSYMPSON@UKANVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Discrimination

I agree with Kathy.  But isn't it interesting to know that all the unflattering
 generalizations were directed to a group of people the source has yet to
 define?  What a handy shortcut.
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:50:11 -0700
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         WAGNERL@CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU
Subject:      Re: L7 feminists and enlightened Pixies

Kathy,
        L7 is a band.  If you acquire one of their albums/CDs and listen
to it twice, you'll adequately meet the requirements for my definition
of a feminist.
        Larry.

p.s.   L7 sorta means "square".
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:46:16 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Rick Adams <adamsr@AIS.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Feminism
              92 02:40:59 pm

=>
=> Yes, Julie, I do mean that the two types of magazines should be stocked, not
=> necessarily sold.  I don't care if demand for magazines which objectify men
=> is low, I just think there should be equal representation, however rude or
=> offensive.  So in answer to your question, no, the objectification of both
=> men and women would not have to be in the same 'zine.  Maybe the logical
=> solution to the problem of male oriented porn is to encourage female oriented
=> porn.  Somehow this is unsatisfying, because I for one do not want to treat
=> men like meat (well ok a few).
=>
        Hmmm.

        Interesting concept - equal space for equivalent publications
(regardless of economic merits).

        Probably would result in most stores refusing to stock "male" porn
mags, since they couldn't afford to dedicate the space to the equal number
of "female" porn mags that wouldn't necessarily sell very well.

        Of course, the need to stock equal numbers of "male" sewing, craft,
fashion, cooking, decorating, romance, and other publications - as well as
"female" sports, mechanics, gun enthuiast, etc. mags would rather rapidly
wipe out the magazine trade as well (after all, it isn't fair to demand that
equality exist =only= with respect to nudity - if a "balance" must be
maintained, then every "Ladies Home Journal" or "Harlequin Romance" must
have a male counterpart available, whether they sell or not.

        Actually, as a side note, the balance probably =does= exist - since
the readers of "Playboy" and "Penthouse" are reliably reported to be at
least 50% female, and the readers of "Playgirl" at least 50% male, it
appears that personal preference is influencing the market appropriately
without external regulation!


--

                       -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
            The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised
      over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to
      prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is
      not a sufficient warrant.                         John Stuart Mill
                       -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
         Rick Adams -=*=- adamsr@ais.org -=*=- adamsr@norwich.bitnet
      anonymous users may send to anonymus+1693@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:44:32 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         20SSMITH@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Psych assessment by MDs

Matthew are you sure about this!  Wow I had no idea this was so.  I
thought that the APA ethics were pretty much the last word on who could
do psychological assessment and refer to themselves as a psychologist.
I'll have to look into this more deeply.  If that is the case it really
blows me away.  Besides that the publishing companies send you through all
kinds of hoops to purchase certain instruments and one of those hoops
is the doctorate in psychology, that is also what lead me to believe testing
was not open to any and every one who could get their hands on the materials.
Hmmm...interesting.

Sybil
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Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 19 NOV 92 12:46:09 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:46:21 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Julie Marie Williams <jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Clinical Respecialization

I'd be interested to hear from anyone in clinical psych programmes, too.
Although I still have 2 years of my PhD to go, I think (at the moment!) that
I'd like to get onto such a programme, either in the UK or N. America.  So I'd
be interested in hearing from anyone who might want to share any experiences/
opinions/advice.

Thanks a lot (in advance!)

Julie
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:10:09 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Kenneth V. White" <kwhite@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:      Dates...

Does anyone out there know the specific dates for SRCD and AERA in '93?


Kenn (just Kenn today)
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:56:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         lindberg@PSYCH.SSCNET.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Psych assessment by MDs

     Just a quick question:
     For some reason, I thought that MDs (i.e., psychiatrists) were not
supposed to do psych assessment, that only psychologists were trained
and licenced to do cognitive testing (I'm not sure about the projectives and
neuropsych testing).
     Does anyone know about this?
     Nangel
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 00:23:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         DAVID KURZMAN <DAVEK@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA>

nomail psycgrad
index psycgrad
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