HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mpoly@panix.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Subject: Re: Neo group gia Makedonia !!!
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 04:14:00 GMT

In <1993Jan26.052034.27450@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:

>	Se ena message pou ekana reply, ena apo ta news groups htan 
>alt.news.macedonia !!
>	Twra ti kanoume; Hsws na pame ekei mexri o Arxid na to brei :-)

>		Giorgis
>PS: To news group omws den to labenoume edw.
 
 Poly aplo. Makedonia = Ellas. Swsta? Loipon, oti afora thn Ellada, prepei
ne topoqethqei kai sto alt.news.macedonia. Idiws an einai grammeno
sta Ellhnika. 

 Opws lene oi Amerikanoi: Parte lemonia kai kante ta lemonada. Anti gia
anqellhniko, as kanoume to a.n.m. ellhniko.
 
>PS: To news group omws den to labenoume edw.    

Bale to sthn grammh Newsgroups: outws h allws. Qa topoqetiqei sto a.n.m.
An exeis problhma me to Newsreader soy, pes moy. Yparxoyn lyseis. 

Oloi mazi me mia pnoh: AEEERRAAAA! H Makedonia einai Ellhnikh!

Mixalhs.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject:  TEST TEST TEST
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 09:31:40 GMT

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Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: 27 Jan 93 11:19:23 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <C1HArD.IrM@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
> 
>  You could find everywhere in Skopje the currency
>  depicting the White Tower of Thessaloniki; you could buy it from many
>  kiosks, where it was (still is?) on display.  And many people were
>  buying it.

Now this currency intrigues me.  To the best of my knowledge Macedonian
notes display a picture of the Krusevo monument to the 1903 uprisng. 
Interestingly the Macedonian 10 denar note (with this monument on) was
the first in a series of notes offered to the readers of the Sunday
Times by that newspaper as a collection of banknotes from the new
countries of Eastern Europe.  Next week one from Latvia is being
offered.  The TV commercials promoting this offer marked Macedonia as
simply another country on the map of Europe.  I think there was a debate
recently about CNN's recognition of Macedonia.  It's clear that the
Sunday Times is firmly of the opinion there is a country called
Macedonia. 

Andy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12564 alt.news.macedonia:251
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:40:24 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>> Of course they are. How would you explain the fact that in Skopje there are
>> maps of the FYRM incorporating parts of northern Greece, all the way down to
>> Mt. Olympus?

>And are they produced by the government - no. I dare say in Greece you
>can find maps produced by Enosis fascists showing Cyprus as part of
>Greece. It would be silly to use these as evidence of the intentions of
>the Greek government. Your argument is of the same ilk.

 Nope. It is different.  You could find everywhere in Skopje the currency
 depicting the White Tower of Thessaloniki; you could buy it from many
 kiosks, where it was (still is?) on display.  And many people were
 buying it.

 And, to the best of my knoweldge, you cannot find in Greece maps depicting
 Cyprus as part of Greece.  Personally, I have not seen such maps.

>Andy

 Panos Tamamidis
From: Nick Gavrielatos@umd.bitnet (NICK@UMD.BITNET)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Eskise to texas...
Date: 27 Jan 1993 21:38:05 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Eutuxws pou uparxoun kai ... texanofiltra... 

Nick Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
NICK@UMD.BITNET
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12660 soc.culture.europe:11500 soc.history:11049
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: More on Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to  remarks by
Date: 27 Jan 93 06:50:54 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan27.063225.24805@informix.com> rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia) writes:
>	
>	I think it is an apt response; they have to learn to leave
							     ^^^^^
>    with their neighbours.

	Aaargh, I hate this kind of typo :-Z I meant "live", of course.
	Sorry about this.

	-G
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: Cyprus history
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 08:07:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.150632.13474@ee.rochester.edu> terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>
>To all Greek Cypriots who claim that Turkish Cypriots were once Greeks(!),
>
	First of all. Does your university offers any course about the
history of Cyprus?  T A K E   I T.  You really need it.
 
>1) There is no evidence in the history of Cyprus that says that "Greek" 
>   Cypriots are related to mainland Greeks (then Byzantium). Cyprus had a
>   blend of peoples who lived on the Island (Lusignans, Venicians etc.)
	Lusinians and Venicians came in Cyprus on the 14th - 15th century,
and only as rulers. The people of of Cyprus where Greeks.

>   So, present "Greek" Cypriots consider themselves to be Greek because of
>   common language and religion with the mainland Greece.
>
	Did it ever occured to you to ask why?
	  WHY the common language? (for 4000 years)
	  WHY the common religion? (Olympous 12 and Christianity) *
	  WHY, even after 300 years of Ottoman rule, the overwhelming majority 
   	      of the population (80%) are Greeks?

* you know that babe called Aphrodite? you know...the ancient greek
goddess of beauty and love?  Well...did anybody told you that she was 
(in mythology) born in Cyprus? Homer even calls her Cyprian in his
"Iliad". (But then again he was greek. What do you expect...he was biased
against the .....turks(!!!). right Okan?)

To all the Turkish Cypriots: What to they tell you about the history of
Cyprus before 1571?

>
>regards,
>E.T.
>
once again. these are just an answer to your saying that Greek Cypriots
are not related to the Greeks of the mainland.

Regards,
Theodore David.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Turkish invasion in Cyprus 1974....
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:51:04 GMT
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science

In article <1993Jan24.211300.492@wuecl.wustl.edu> tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David) writes:
>Posting for Varnavas A. Lambrou.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Varnavas A. Lambrou" <V999SAUM@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

[stuff deleted]

>
>WHAT IS TURKEY AFTER?
>
>Turkey had expressed interest in dominating Cyprus long before she could
>manufacture a story of "eleven years of oppression" of the Turkish Cypriots.

"Manufacture a story"??! Where were you during the period of 58-74? Well,
I was lucky enough to be born at the end of this period but the stories 
I heard from my own parents (I do NOT think they would lie to me!) are not
encouraging at all. If you want to talk with us, Turkish Cypriots, about 
the "Cyprus Problem", you are more than welcome to do so, but if you are 
going to do Greek/Greek Cypriot propaganda on the net, serving nothing else
but making the gap between the two communities of the island even larger;
you are not serving any intelligent purpose. Do you really want "peace" on
the island? Well, I do. But I also want to be safe, secure, with no fights,
discrimination etc. You seem to be quite a "fanatic" person from your 
postings. It is precisely people like you (both from Turkish and Greek side)
who destroyed the peace of the island. Cyprus needs loyal people who can
say "I AM A CYPRIOT, and PROUD OF IT" BEFORE they say "I am Greek/Turkish".
Well, you are certainly not one of them. The future of "United Cyprus" 
depends on the existence of this type of people on both communities. Since,
this type of people are scarce on both sides, "unification" seems a distant
away. We need quite a bit of work and TIME.

It is a mere historical fact that the Turkish Cypriots were oppressed, 
discriminated against and KILLED by the Greek fanatics between the period
58-74. Of course, there was retaliation from the Turkish Cypriot community.
I myself have always felt the pain of never seeing either of my grandfathers...
If you are fanatic enough to DENY such REALITIES of the past, then I have 
nothing to say to you.

Regards,
E.T.
a Cypriot.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12555 soc.culture.europe:11428 soc.history:10982
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: More on Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:19:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:

>I don't have a copy of the Treaty of San Stefano handy at the moment,
>but will look it up when I get the chance.  However, nobody of Greek
>extraction on the Net has seriously responded to the claims that Greece
>is trying to blockade and starve the Macedonians into giving up that
>name.

 Silly claims do not deserve serious answers.

>--Ted Schuerzinger

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:10:10 GMT

In <ANDERSON.93Jan22154123@sapir.cog.jhu.edu> anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen Anderson) writes:
[..]
>Yours in some genuine puzzlement,
>--Steve Anderson

Dear Steve,

I read your message, but I think there is something (perhaps)
missing; namely the historical knowledge of the area from 1878
(Panslavism, Greater Bulgaria), together with the old dream of
the Slavs having a major exit in the Aegean. Now add the way
Bulgaria doubled its size with the anexation of (Eastern I
think) Rumelia (present S. Bulgaria), the myth about the new
nation of "Macedonians" either by Bulgaria (in the beginning)
and Tito later and you may understand what Greeks fear.

Things start with the discovery of the "Macedonian nation",
"statistics" are created, "minorities" in neighbouring
countries are found with exponentially inflated numbers and in
the particular case, there is a deliberate confusion between
Ancient Macedonians (=Greeks) and contemporary Slavs. The later
can now claim that the time has finally come to reassert their
"identity" and to "reclaim the land of their ancient
forefathers". Naturally, everything has a logical sequence.
Currently it is just peace they say they want, together with
internation recognition. The rest will come soon afterwards.

Should they lose the opportunity to be called "Macedonians",
these people will not cease causing problems. However, their
most important propaganda weapon (association with Ancient
Macedonia and all the "rights" that come with it) will have
dissappeared. This is all most of the Greeks want.

Can you understand this position? Are willing to bother with
it, instead of simplifying everything? This is all *I* ask. You
may not agree with the way most of the Greeks have followed on
this issue (about the name), perhaps because you have something
better to propose or other reasons. But before saying anything
more look at both the period I told you above and the current
balance of power in the area. This is the present and a
probable future in which no Westerner will come to assist
Greece in the future (just look at Cyprus), not the distant
past.

With all due respect

Panayotis
--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
From: rizos@cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: ONOMA TOY NEWSGROUP ! ! !
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:04:11 GMT

Me aformh to ar0ro toy Alki Argyropoyloy, stalmeno apo ton
kilitzir@cyprus.csd.uch.gr (Kilitzirakis christos 122), 0a
h0ela na rwthsw ton apostolea, giati to onoma Greece, Greek, 
klp. einai "xeftila" kai odhgei se syneirmoys toy typoy 
"douloi"; Den prokeitai mhpws gia onomasia me arxaiotath
riza, isws arxaioteri apo to Ellas, den htan o agwnistis toy
'21 poy elege `Egw Graikos gennithika, Graikos the na pethanw',
kai den htan oi idioi oi katoikoi toy neosystatoy mikroy 
basileioy twn arxwn toy perasmenoy aiwna, poy protimoysan na
onomazontai Graikoi;

--r.
From: mrc@helios.UCSC.EDU (Marc Herant)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:45:17 GMT
Organization: UCO/Lick Observatory
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.ucsc.edu

In article <Jan22.012319.51623@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>
>Actually Greece is one of the few EC members with no nationalist or
>neo-facism movements. Germany, UK, France, Danmark are facing problems
>with extreme right wing opposition to EC union. 
>
Hmmm, I seem to recall that not that long ago, there was a military
regime in power in Greece...
OOOOOOPS!!!! I forgot, the official interpretation is that everyone
above the rank of corporal had an American with a gun pointed at their
head telling them what to do. 
My mistake.

		MH
From: bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish invasion in Cyprus 1974..
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:41:53 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

>
>Thinking Ahead,
>	Varnavas A. Lambrou.
>
>P.S. Can you tell me what are those two writings on the Pentadaktylos Mountain?
>And what is their purpose?

One of them is "Ne mutlu Turkum diyene!" which means: 
"How happy I am to be a Turk!" so its meaning is just that.

As to its purpose, it is a saying told by the very famous Turkish leader, Kemal
Ataturk, to raise the morale of Turkish people(esp. in the mainland) who had 
gone through rough times during World War I and quite some time before that
due the troubles which faced the collapsing Ottoman Empire. The period
in which he said it was around 1923-1930. [I do not recall the exact date.]

so how does it apply to the Turkish Cypriots ?

It is an undeniable fact that Turkish Cypriots had a rough time during the
period 1958-1974 simply because of their "Turkishness" so they were also
made to suffer because of their heritage. The saying was written after the
1974 Peace Operation to soothe the souls of the Turkish Cypriots and Turks 
alike in North Cyprus and thus give them a sense of pride about their 
Turkishness. 


Besime Erin.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: writings on mount 5-dactylos
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 03:10:45 GMT

bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:

>> Yes, like "H O L L Y W O O D," only that the letters are bigger;  
>> Together with a large Turkish flag painted on the ground, so that
>> it can be seen from miles away.
>>
>> To me, it seems that the only reason for having these symbols are to
>> provoke the Greek-Cypriots.  Now imagine how delighted the refugees

>Then according to that logic everything that the Turkish Cypriots 
>represent is provoking too because it's Turkish. 

 It wouldn't be provoking if you hadn't killed thousands of people,
 if you hadn't created 200,000 refugees, if you hadn't performed ethnic
 cleansing, if more than 1,600 people were not still missing e.t.c.

>How nicely you prove our point, Panos, thank you !

 You are welcome.  Are you fat by any chance?  

>> A more correct writing would be:"Ne mutlu pezeveng diyene!"
>> Which means: "How happy I am to be a pimp!"
>>

>Apparently you learned a new word as well, how nice ! 

 Are you itching to test my ability in Turkish?

>Besime.

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: writings on mount 5-dactylos
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:57:03 GMT

terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:

>In article <9301271428.AA11951@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>Varnavas Lambrou asked about the writings on the Mount Pentadactylos
>>and Besime Erin responded:
>>
>>> One of them is "Ne mutlu Turkum diyene!" which means: 
>>> "How happy I am to be a Turk!" so its meaning is just that.
>>
>>Do you folks mean to say that high in the mountain Pentadactylos
>>there's huge letters (reminiscnent of   H O L L Y W O O D   in
>>Los Angeles) that write out these message(s)? How big are these
>>writings? Distance they can be seen from? etc?

>Yes. These writings are BIG!! There are also two flags. One Turkish and
>one TRNC flag painted on the mountains. These flags were on CNN a couple
>of years ago because they are the "biggest flags" in the world. I think one
>of them is as large as 50 football fields (don't hold me for the size, I am
>not quite sure but it is a ridiculously large number like 50 or so). As to 
>the writings, they are next to the flags and in proportion to the size of
>the flags. I think one can read the writings as long as he can see the 
>mountains!!

The reading and the flag are the only things that the Turks did in the 
occupied areas which I like, under the current circumstances ofcourse.  
Yes indeed one can see them from very far away, and thus they remind to
Cypriots in the south were ever they are, irrespectively of being refugees or
not, that the Turkish army is only  a few miles away.

Unfortunately some of us tend to forget of what the current situation is,
and that what happened in 1974 can very well happen again.  There are few of us
who are tempted to think that we should forget all about Kerynia, Morfou, 
Ammohwstos, Bella-Pais, Apostolos Andreas and try to solve the problem so that
we can continue enjoying the prosperity of the south.

Well, the flags and the H O L L Y W O O D messages remind us that the people 
in power across the Green Line and beyound the coast of Kerynia may decide one
moring to try to take the rest of Cyprus. 

They help everyone to understand the need for defense expenditure, young men 
to realise the need to spend 26 months of their lifes in the army, 
and people who have never known northern Cyprus to realize that it is
worth struggling for its liberation. 

So, they only thing left to say is: GOOD JOB thanks for the service.

>>Just askin' (promise, no follow-ups)
>>
>>Spiros
>>-- 
>>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
>>Software Technology, Delco Electronics       (317) 451-0815
>>GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]

>Regards,
>E.T.
-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign
From: Nick Gavrielatos@harvard.harvard.edu (NICK@UMD.BITNET)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: ARTHUR SCRIBNER YOUR MAMA TOLD ME...
Date: 28 Jan 1993 17:32:37 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Arthur Scribner, your mama told me a joke during a break...
it wasnt about Classical Greek Philosophy, 
but what the heck, I'll reveal it anyway..

She said she breast-feeded you till the age of 24!
After that you grew wisdom-teeth in between your 2 front
ones(!) and things became rather ... bothersome... 

Now how true is that? ALso, how true is the rumor that 
you were given an offer to work in a jig-saw puzzle making
company to cut carton-pieces with your teeth in order to 
confuse customers out??? Huhhhhh????


Nick Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
NICK@UMD.BITNET

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: c85perwe@IDA.LiU.SE (Per Westling)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Reply-To: c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se
Organization: CIS Dept, University of Linkoping, Sweden
	<C85PERWE.93Jan22155628@kol20.IDA.LiU.SE>
	<Jan22.230441.17073@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 13:38:10 GMT

In article <Jan22.230441.17073@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:

> In article <C85PERWE.93Jan22155628@kol20.IDA.LiU.SE>, c85perwe@IDA.LiU.SE (Per Westling) writes:

> |> James Tsillias suggested that Denmark would oppose the recognition of
> |> The Republic of Macedonia if it would call itself New Copenhagen.  I
> |> don't think they would, and for that matter, I would support them even
> |> if they called themselves New Sweden (a name used by a part of the
> |> world now incorporated in the USA).

> Yet another simplistic approach. New Jersey, for example was founded by
> people to fleed from Jersey and named their new settlement to honor their
> home-land.

> Tsillias's argument was not a good one. I don't know much of Denish history
Bad arguments seem to be normal in this group ;-)
> nor Scadinavian --- despite the fact that I was involved for 2.5 yrs with
> an excellent lady from Sweden --- but how would you feel is Norway for example
> changed the name to something taken deeply inside from Swedish history,
> thus claiming that Sweden is Norway after all?
I wouldn't mind.  What is a name anyway?
I still think the important thing is the intensions of FYRM, not it's
name.  After listening to the discussion I find it hard to believe
that Greece would recognize FYRM if it called itself "The Republic of
Skopije" (or whatever).  Isn't still the problem with the
constitution, governing body, minorities, etc stll there?  Many other
countries recognizes FYRM, so I think Greece should inform them better
what they really oppose.  So far everyone (at least here up north) has
got the impression that it is the name that is the problem.

--
Per Westling              |
Mardtoprsgatan 15         |  c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se
S-582 48 LINKOPING        |  In praise of Idleness -- Bertrand Russel
SWEDEN                    |
Stuff regarding DPP may be sent to x90perwe@ida.liu.se instead.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia