HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Non-physician bashing
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:21:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: pitt.17941
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <Bzo4H6.2tG@ssr.com> sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne) writes:
>In article <1gvpgsINNm32@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
>
>   Those who embrace quack theories [...] are merely less
>   than well educated or lacking in the skills for critical thought
>   in the area concerned.
>
>There was an interesting paper in the Annals of Internal Medicine,
>July 1984 which studied patients and practitioners who indulged in
>'alternative' (i.e. quack) theories of cancer medicine. Of many
>interesting observations, particularly interesting was that most
>patients were well educated (no arguments about what really
>constitutes education, puleeze) and that 50% of the practioners were
>M.D.s

There is a good PhD dissertation waiting for some medical sociologist
on this topic.  I have some interesting observations, but a systematic
study would be useful.  The most uneducated will go to quacks as
well as scientific practioners.  They don't know enough to evaluate
one over another and are only interested in getting well.  They
will try anything.  Those on welfare, of course, are limited to
what the government will pay for, which excludes expensive quacks.
Most of my patients in this group will have tried chiropractors,
which is the only quack system that is widespread enough in these
parts that the common person knows about them.  

The educated who visit quacks fall into many different types.
THere are those with terminal diseases who are unable to accept
the fact that they are dying or incurable and will rush hither
and yon from quack to quack until their money runs out or
they die.  

There are the new agers who are usually not scientifically
educated, but educated in liberal arts or fine arts, etc.,
and are attracted by the "philosophy" of "holisitic" healers.
Their bookshelves are often crammed with quack books on candida,
herbalism, eastern religions, Chinese medicine, etc.  They
tend to visit practitioners that are authentically trained in
oriental traditional medicine, or real shamans, etc.  These people
are not exactly quacks, since they are more like religious practitioners,
but they certainly aren't scientific.

There are the conspiracy theorists who reject anything organized
or institutionalized as conspiratorial, and thus reject orthodox
medicine for those reasons.

As to MDs being the majority of quacks, that is certainly true.
There is far more money to be made by being a quack.  The educated
are more likely to visit an MD quack than a lowly chiropractor, too.
They overvalue the worth of the MD degree in assuring non-quackhood.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:18:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: omen.1993Jan03.201800.24962
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest

In article <2348@hsdndev.UUCP> rind@binoc.bih.harvard.edu (David Rind) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.063107.9871@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>>Let me just that that I wouldn't want to be the first to volunteer
>>for any kind of immunological attack on fat cells.  The potential
>>for disaster seems almost limitless.
>
>This certainly seems like a reasonable concern.  Various collagen
>vascular diseases such as lupus can have an associated panniculitis,
>which I assume is due to an autoimmune attack on fat cells.  This can
>be fatal.

There has been some concern about the selectivity of the
generated antibodies in the papers published so far, but no
concern about triggering an autoimmune reaction.  It hasn't been
a disaster for the animal subjects.  Please read the papers.

I'm sure that application of immunological attack to human fat
cells will not be deployed before through testing and
evaluation, a step that should have been applied to traditional
weight loss methods.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: graphical display of medical records
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:43:09 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

[reply to eclark@gauss.math.usf.edu.]
 
>I have a son who has been in numerous psych wards and hospitals.
>Several times I have attempted to read the records--especially the
>medication records--over, say, a period of a year during which he has
>been on many different drugs simultaneously with numerous PRN's. I have
>been discouraged by how difficult it is to read these records and get a
>good picture of the data. Are there any places out there that keep all
>this in a computer and at the touch of a key can get graphical displays
>of the data?
 
This is often available on computerized medical records systems, but
most clinics and hospitals still use paper records, in which case no one
is likely to go to the trouble to type all the data in just to display
it graphically.  Eventually all medical records will be computerized.
Keeping medical records electronically is probably cheaper, but the
technology is still cutting edge and physicians as a group have been
slow to adopt information technology.

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 23 Dec 92 10:55:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: omen.1992Dec23.105556.8340
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest

In article <1992Dec23.054435.19318@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.043007.5590@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg) writes:
>>Gordon, thanks for reminding me about Rena.  We're still waiting
>>for her answers to the legitimate questions already before her.
>>The longer she ignores my communications the more concerned I
>>become that she is more interested in protecting a diet based
>>research establishment than progress toward effective obesity
>>treatment.
>
>Dyer's Law strikes again.
>
>Chuck, Rena doesn't participate on sci.med nor is she on the net, so
>she isn't under even the most informal obligation to give you the time
>of day, let alone "give you her answers to your legitimate questions."
>Sheesh.  Does it even cross your mind that if you come off as a
>blithering crank here on the net, that the figure you cut out in the
>real world when you send out "Adiposity 101" to obesity researchers
>might not be very collegial?

Haven't we been here before?  When my critics run out of
arguments they resort to ad hominem ("blistering crank")
attacks.  Can't they stick to the subject already?

>
>>Gordon's other comments clarify the need to add some more basic
>>information about current obesity research in Adiposity 101,
>>rather than just mentioning it with references to standard works.
>
>You mean "the obesity research which tells me what I want to hear."

No.  I mean items in Adiposity 101 such as the one-liner:
"Adipocyte Hyperplasia: Excessive number of fat cells, as much
as ten times normal.", without adequately explaining the
significance of fat cell number.

Steve, you (and others) seem convinced I am excluding relevant,
high quality obesity research from Adiposity 101 that doesn't
"tell me what I want to hear".  Could you be specific?  Please
discuss specific papers, we've had enough vague generalizations.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: mazur@bluefin.camb.inmet.com (Beth Mazur)
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Organization: Intermetrics, Inc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:15:34 GMT

In <1992Dec31.063136.21570@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg) writes:
>Until there's a cure (or even a safe and effective treatment)
>many will use VLCD and/or Atkins.  As reported on the net, results
>with Atkins have been spotty.  Switching from Diet Coke to Dr
>Pepper might help some of them.

My experience on a VLCD for 5 months supports what Steve has mentioned--if
you are under 600 calories or so, you pretty much go into ketosis regardless 
of your carbo intake.  The HMR program uses a formula that provides 
50g of protein and 75g of carbohydrates a day.  I thought that much carbo
would keep me out of ketosis and starving all day.  Surprisingly (to me),
there was no hunger after the first week or so.  I didn't bother to check
myself, but I am assuming I was in ketosis.

BTW, I *lived* on Diet Coke during this period--probably more than a six-pack
a day.

Beth Mazur                   "...life is more than a vision.  The sweetest
mazur@inmet.inmet.com         part is acting after making a decision."
...!uunet!inmet!mazur                                  -- The Indigo Girls
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 21:10:06 EST

In article <17879@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:

>Kurt Vonnegut's son, Mark, wrote an interesting book about
>his psychotic break which does give a flavor of what being
>psychotic is like.  I forgot the title.

The book is titled _The Eden Express_.  He wrote it before
he went to Harvard medical school.  

I learned recently that _The Eden Express_ is out of print; our local
psychiatric association was trying to buy copies to put one into every
local high school library (along with other books on mental illness
topics).

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: bhjelle@carina.unm.edu ()
Subject: Re: Human parthenogenesis
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 19:26:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1hncs2INN31u@mirror.digex.com> kfl@access.digex.com (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
>> Is there any documented, credible, medical evidence for human
>> parthenogenesis?
>
>No.  Last I heard, males were still necessary for the continuance of
>the human race.

So far, so good...   .
>
>> Today, can such be verified by DNA analysis?
>
>Not really, because it would be easy to fake.
                                 ^^^^

Easy? What do you mean by "easy".   ?

>Simply start a pair of identical twins using in-vitro fertilization.
>Bring one to term.  Freeze the other, and bring it to term 20 years
>later by implanting it in the older twin.  You will have a mother and
>daughter with identical DNA.
>
>I wonder if anyone's ever done this?
>
Have you been watching a bit too many sci-fi movies lately?

To answer the first poster's question,
it would be possible to demonstrate parthogenesis in man
with DNA typing methods with very high reliability in
any outbred population.

Brian  










Newsgroups: sci.med
From: kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson)
Subject: Re: post-Prozac reactions
Summary: what if patient is bipolar?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:40:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.133028.10836@newstand.syr.edu>, mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline) writes:
> In article <1go0liINNt66@agate.berkeley.edu> werner@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (John Werner) writes:
> >In article <1992Dec15.172745.27468@newstand.syr.edu> Mark D. Kline writes:
> >>I have started more than 600 people on prozac since 1987.  I have seen no
> >>unusual discontinuation effects, and I have seen no unusual suicidality
> >>or violent behavior.  
> >
> >This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while.
> >All of the medical professionals here say that there have been no
> >reports Prozac causing suicidal or violent behavior.  But occasionally
> >people will post anecdotal evidence: "It happened to me!"
> 
> There HAVE been reports of suicide and violent behavior attributed to
> Prozac in the medical literature.  In one local case, a desperately 
> depressed woman killed her two children before killing herself while
> taking Prozac.  This was probably not due to Prozac, but due to her
> illness.  The situation was reminiscent of Euripides' Medea, who killed
> her children, then herself, after Jason deserted her.  But they didn't
> have Prozac back then...
> 
> Results of large scale reviews - involving thousands of cases - suggests
> that the risk of suicidal or violent behavior is not different between
> patients taking Prozac and patients taking other antidepressant medications.

In _The Good News about Depression_, Dr. Gold says that he believes
that a certain percentage of people diagnosed with depression also
have some phases of hypomania, and that is why, he thinks, some
people have adverse reactions to Prozac or other antidepressants.
He thinks that it may produce hypomania in some.

So, I'm wondering, what effect would antidepressants have on people
who are known to be bipolar or cyclothymic?
Do people ever commit suicide during manic phases?  For example if
they were afraid of going mad?
Is rage indicative of mania or hypomania?  I read in one book that
raging at someone is abusive and I could see their point, when I
thought about it.

It could be that some doctors have missed seeing the manic or
hypomanic phases in some patients.  If Mark hasn't seen adverse
effects of Prozac, maybe it means he's diagnosing his patients
correctly.

> One reason its easy to get prozac is that the drug is really quite
> nontoxic and there is rather little "down side" to trying it to see
> if it helps or not.  This is not meant as an excuse for lax prescribing,
> however...

Is Prozac ever prescribed for children?  It seems that it would be
safer than a tricyclic like Imipramine.
-- 
Krista Anderson, krista@ihlpf.att.com  or  ihlpf!krista@att.att.com
I don't want to be here; I want to be in an Agatha Christie novel,
or in a musical, like Mary Poppins.
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: Physician's Incomes
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:00:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.170732.18827@lucpum.it.luc.edu> rtoptan@lucpum.it.luc.edu (Richard Z Toptani) writes:
>
>
>Just had to respond to some of the various comments that have
>been made in this thread...
>
>
>
>
>> 120K is the average for all physicians.  Several specialties have averages
>> over 200K and a few have averages over 300K.
>
>This may be true, but keep in mind that the number of doctores who
>make that kind of money is not very large and that those figures
>are included in calculating the "average" of $120K. This means that
>for all those docs making well over $120K, there must be just as
>many making well under $120K as well!
>

	Just a minor quibble here.  The number of doctors making less than
$120K will equal the number making more only if $120K is also the median
income.  The number on either side of the average depends on the distribution.
When J. Paul Getty lived in Santa Monica (I believe it was), for example, the 
average income for the town residents was far in excess of the typical income.

Regards,
tony
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: randolph@netcom.com (Randolph Fritz)
Subject: Wanted: GP in south SF bay area
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:30:21 GMT

I'm looking for a new primary-care physician for myself in the south SF Bay 
area.  If you have someone you'd like to suggest to me, please send me a
referral.

__Randolph Fritz  randolph@netcom.com
Newsgroups: sci.med
From: neville@cs.washington.edu (Dorothy Neville)
Subject: Re: sex, menstruation, endometriosis
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 23:11:08 GMT

RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg) writes:
> u081f131@astro.ocis.temple.edu writes:
>
>> I have recently been told that having sex during ones period can
>> possibly lead to endometriosis.

>The new "possibly-causing-endometriosis" myth combines the old taboos against
>heterosexual intercourse during menstruation with new speculation (note: *not*
>demonstrated fact) that *maybe* endometriosis *might* be caused by so-called
>"retrograde menstruation" -- a pretty long shot so far as theories go, IMHO. 
>Even if this *were* true (& there is no evidence for this part, so far), the
>second speculation here is that so-called "retrograde menstruation" (if it
>exists) *might* be caused by heterosexual intercourse during menstruation,
>ANOTHER *extremely* long shot, IMHO. 

I agree that retrograde menstruation based on sexual penetration seems
improbable.  However, is it true that there is no evidence for any
retrograde menstruation?  The insert to the cervical cap says do not
use the cap during menstruation but doesn't say why.  A doctor told me
that the reason for not using the cap while bleeding is that there is
(speculation?/evidence?) that it can lead to endometriosis.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this is the seed that evolved into the warning
of the possible link between sex and endometriosis?

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 04:53:44 GMT

In article <86096@ut-emx.uucp> llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine) writes:
>
>when i eat too much and don't move enough, i get fat. when i stop
>eating and start moving, i lose weight. you seem to be saying that
>this observation isn't valid.

Sine nomine, you haven't provided nearly enough data to make a
serious observation.  Your signature suggests there is more to
the story than has been told.  Please use the data in my posting
as an example of the necessary completeness if you wish to see
some informed speculation.

In the meantime, we shouldn't forget the experience of
bathurst@phoenix.princeton.edu.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
From: ead@cs.ucsb.edu (Eric De Mund)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: seeking osteoporosis references
Date: 27 Dec 92 03:54:01 GMT
Reply-To: Eric De Mund <ead@cs.ucsb.edu>
Organization: UC Santa Barbara
X-Reply-To: Eric De Mund <ead@cs.ucsb.edu>

sci.med people,

my mother, age 60, recently had a bone densitometry exam of some kind.
the physician (not her own physician) said that the brittleness of her
bones was "on the edge of being normal" (her words).

i don't know what this means. i don't know what kind of exam it was. i
vaguely recall that she said her foot was submerged in water. she
doesn't have any other information about the exam or the results.

can someone provide references to literature so she can educate herself
on the topics of osteoporosis and bone densitometry? she gave up smoking
several months ago (using the nicoderm patch and cigarette-sized twigs
for their tactile similarity) after having smoked for ~40 years, and has
been walking ~1 mile per day (after having consulted her physician).
she's interested in finding out if there are any dietary changes she can
adopt in order to keep her bones strong.

thank you very much,
eric de mund <ead@cs.ucsb.edu>
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:32:59 GMT
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest

In article <17937@pitt.UUCP> geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.043007.5590@omen.UUCP> caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg) writes:
>>
>>Well then, what was your BMI at 5, 10 and 15?
>>
>Well, I told you I was 210 at age 15 and 5'11" high.  Can you figure
>it out from that?  I don't know how fat I was at 5 or 10.  By age
>10 I was being teased, however.
>
>>Gordon, if you knew what "feeding your face meant" why did you
>>equate not "feeding your face" with terminal starvation when you
>>knew better?  
>>
>
>I wanted to get a rise out of you.
>
>>Gordon, thanks for reminding me about Rena.  We're still waiting
>>for her answers to the legitimate questions already before her.
>>The longer she ignores my communications the more concerned I
>>become that she is more interested in protecting a diet based
>>research establishment than progress toward effective obesity
>>treatment.
>
>I told you that you were far too rude to expect to get a reply
>from Rena.  She undoubtedly considered you a crank.

If one were using statistical manipulations to generate good
experimental results out of nothing, it would be logical to
dismiss questioners as "cranks", "anti-dieters", or "feminists".

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
From: tepper@ACF1.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Smoking Cessation
Date: 3 Jan 93 05:53:19 GMT
Reply-To: tepper@ACF1.NYU.EDU
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
NNTP-Posting-Host: acf1.nyu.edu

Is anyone aware of any electronic bulletins posted by the Office on Smoking 
and Health of the Centers for Disease Control?  Emailed info would be 
appreciated.  Looking particularly for funding info.  Thanks.  Jesse Tepper
Tepper@acfcluster.nyu.edu
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: "reflexology"?
Date: 28 Dec 92 00:28:09 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1992Dec14.100958.12144@vms.eurokom.ie> mdebuitlear@vms.eurokom.ie writes:
>>>
>> There is no known scientific basis for it.  Certainly they can
>> make people feel better, but so can just about any quack system.
>
>Strange indeed - what is wrong with making people feel better, thats what 
>they usually want from a treatment/consultation.  Doesn't sound unreasonable 
>to me, you go to a reflexologist, get treated, pay up and go home feeling 
>better - everyones happy (except the people in this newsgroup).
>

Nothing wrong with making people feel better.  Santa Claus and the
tooth fairy make a lot of kids feel good.  But just don't confuse
it with science, that's all.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Adiposity 101
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:21:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec23.022147.13249
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <0kgrdf-@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:
>"Adipocyte hyperplasia" is another politically-correct phrase
>for obesity. Chuck's diatribes are full of PC jargon, but
>you have to know what to look for in order to recognize it.

This is a slur against all politically-correct jargon.
This isn't C by any stretch of P, except in Chuck's own world.

>I would suggest "metabolically different" but apparently
>that phrase is already reserved for the life-impaired
>(ie, dead people).

Triglyceridically challenged?  Differently lipased?
Energy efficient?

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer