HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness in the Dark Ages
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:10:53 GMT

jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin):
>Are there really many novels from earlier periods in which environmental 
>destruction is implicitly supported out of ignorance?

Hunting, trapping, clearing, mining, etc. have been with us a long time. 
They become what we perceive as environmental destruction in the relatively
recent time-frame (the last century or few) during which these activities
became exceedingly efficient.  So it's in the last century-plus that we
see books uncritically portraying what we regard critically -- Melville's
fleets of whalers hunting the sperm whale, Haggard's sporting contest to
see which hunter can shoot more birds in an afternoon, etc.

Some books take on a retrospective irony.  For example, "Shane" portrays
the victory of the small farmer over the large rancher -- in a part of
the country which turned out to be suited for grazing but not farming.

Early science fiction tended to be very simplistic where the environment
was concerned -- the "first we'll melt the continent down to bedrock to
provide a steady platform" school of engineering.

>For that matter, what was the first novel to take the environment as a 
>problem, apart from specific concerns about urban squalor?

Interesting question.  The earliest example that comes readily to my
mind is Olaf Stapledon's "First and Last Men" (c. 1930?) which posits
general collapse as a result of fuel depletion, but there must be
earlier ones.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

"The death of God left the angels in a strange position."
	--Internal documentation, programmer unknown
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:57:41 GMT

In article <1ikq4gINNa58@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Mike Godwin writes:

>	Roger Lustig writes:

>		Whatever.

>	In these four lines, Roger sums up Paul Johnson's book perfectly.

>Oh my God! We're not back to those back-scratching, log-rolling days of
>yore are we? 

I hope not.  In fact, Francis, I couldn't have put it better myself.  

Roger






8-)
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Crossdressing in Literature
Date: 5 Jan 1993 14:15:20 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mark Taranto writes:

	As for women writing from the point of view of men, and vice 
	versa, I find that women are, in general, more successful in 
	writing from the *other* viewpoint.  Until recently, I could 
	think of *no* example of a first person narrative where I 
	thought that a man was convincing as a woman.  Certainly, 
	E. M. Forster creates realistic women -- but we see them in 
	the third person.

There is something rather odd about a man deciding that other men are
less successful at writing about women as women are about men. Not wrong,
mind you, just odd. In any case, it sounds as though you are due for a dose
of E.F. Benson, whose "Lucia" novels resonate with the sound of women's 
voices. Benson lies on a straight line exactly ewuidistant between the
satire of Peacock and the wit of Wodehouse; social commentary with a
dash of Worcestershire (pronounced Wooster, of course) sauce. Forster
versus Benson would make for an illuminating thread. 

						RABworm
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: John Sayles' Fiction
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:55:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan10.205525.22976
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <10JAN93.18424258@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>For those of you who enjoy Sayles' films, I highly recommend the
>recent _City of Hope_.  It might, in some ways, be his best work so
>far, and contains echoes of his novel _Union Dues_.  It's out on
>video.  (Don't confuse it with _City of Joy_, starring Patrick Swayze.)  

I was expecting a lot from this movie, given all the favorable press
when it came out (what, two years ago or so.)  What I found instead
was a completely servicable made-for-TV movie that was in every other
respect undistinguished.  At no point did any of the main characters
seem real to me; they all manifested a kind of lifeless phoniness which
came from the screenwriter's condescension, drawn as either stereotypes or
earnest proto-saints.  I couldn't imagine _why_ this movie was getting
the good press it was; finally I could only ascribe it to the general
drek out there, where a movie worthy of the Hallmark Hall of Fame would
be overpraised, and to the ossification of Sayles' apotheosis as the
aging generation-in-power's film-maker-of-note.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:32:31 GMT

In article <7JAN93.18521534@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
}In her appearance on _60 Minutes_, Paglia countered the Hitler comparison by
}saying Steinem's desire to repress opposing viewpoints reminded her of
}Stalin.

Great!  And in the current Playboy, Catherine MacKinnon gets called the
feminist Lenin and Andrea Dworkin the Trotsky in the article "Woman on the
Verge of a Legal Breakdown."  I love it!

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:22:18 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

John McCarthy writes:

	Mr. Bennet seems like a sensible fellow.  What's absurd about him?

Good sense without sensibility. If the ladies were as flat as Mr. Bennet
(have you noticed that he does not have a Christian name?) then Jane
Austen would be responsible for the best-organized mass yawn in the history
of literature. But you are right on one score. There is nothing absurd about
Mr. Bennet; would that there were.

						RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 22:59:35 GMT



"john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com> writes:

>Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? Any genre will do.

Lot's of my favorites (LUCKY JIM, REBEL ANGELS) have already been mentioned. 
Two I haven't seen mentioned yet:



	THE WATER-METHOD MAN     John Irving
	BRIDESHEAD REVISITED     Evelyn Waugh

Irving's book is very funny/  Waugh's is a wonderful book -- though only the
first part takes place in an academic setting.

Oh yes -- has anyone mentioned Biatt's POSSESSION?

Mark
From: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se (Thomas Enblom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Dean R Koontz
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:42:12 GMT
Reply-To: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB

Hello!
  I'm new to this group and one of my favorite writers is Dean R Koontz.
  Here in Sweden about 15 books have been translated and published.
  I wonder if somebody could provide me with a list of all of his
  published books + year of publication.

Thanks.

P.S. We have Dean R Koontz, Steven Coontz, Steven King so where the
     heck is Dean King? D.S.


================================================================================
Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden
      
Thomas Enblom, just another employee.     
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: freek@phil.ruu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Organization: Department of Philosophy, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:39:13 GMT

koosman@UTKUX1.UTK.EDU (Toby Koosman) writes:
>This is a poor defense of technology from my view, demonstrating the sorry
>pass we've come to on account of sound reproduction technology, in that the
>normal way to appreciate music is assumed to be, not witnessing musicians
>playing their instruments before you, but hearing recorded music.  
>
>Not that this is analogous to the digitalization of books.

You mean that listening to story telling is superior to book
reading?

Freek
--
Third theory of Phenomenal Dynamics:  The difference between
a symbol and an object is quantitative, not qualitative.
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Byron
Date: 11 Jan 1993 03:26:22 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Joann Zimmerman writes:

	Francis' mention of Ada Lovelace by way of _The Difference 
	Engine_ reminds me of a question I was intending to ask anyway:

	What is a good critical biography of Byron? I'd like something 
	fairly recent that discusses both the man and his works.

"For something entirely different" (Monty Python?), try Doris Langley
Moore's *LORD BYRON ACCOUNTS RENDERED*, John Murray (who else?), London,
1974. Miss Moore is also the author of *The Late Lord Byron*, but I do 
not know it. LBAR is a long, scholarly treatise with an Index, eleven
Appendices (!) and a select bibliography -- the whole thing something
under 500 pages long. In conversation with John Murray (the great, great
great, grandson of Byron's "King John"), Miss Moore discussed the aspects
of Byron that had nor been touched upon and saw that his financial
records were a key that unlocked some many new doors. 

							RABworm
From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 6 Jan 1993 18:38:27 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

Mike Morris writes
>Perhaps you can inform me now (I mean, based on your more precise
>knowledge of what the measures are) how it is I would have voted
>and whether or not my reasons are homophobic.

That's impossible to say for sure.  I would have voted against either
had I lived in either state.  But you're being extremely...ummm...precise abut  
this.  I would rather live in a society that didn't demand that subgroups be  
mentioned  with regards to laws.  The law should treat all people equally,  
making exceptions for special treatment for children, for
convicted criminals in jail, and possibly for the mentally retarded.
However, there has been LOTS of bashing on the basis of religion,
on the basis of sex, on the basis of race, on the basis of ethnic origin, on  
the basis of age, and, yes, on the basis of sexual orientation.  Since these  
abuses still happen, I guess we need to state in our laws that we really DO  
MEAN that you shouldn't discriminate and get away with it legally.  As Martin  
Luther King so eloquently said

   "...where our children are not judged on the color of their skin,
    but by the content of their character."

Sadly, people often seemed to be judged on everything BUT the content
of their character.


*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak *
*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I *
*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade *
* unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist... *
*Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
*  Rev. Martin Niemoeller     [Why to March on Washington in April]  *
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: "Jeeves and Wooster"
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:00:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.104437.46114@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>Love the series also.  Note the odd consensus here: I too always
>thought of Jeeves as an older man.  That's three of us (?) so far.
>Why have we made this assumption?  Any theories?  Any dissenters?

Two possible thoughts;  

- Jeeves _acts_ many years older than Bertie, so naturally...

- Many editions of Wodehouse sport cover art showing a balding Jeeves.  Not
Plum's doing, presumably, but it worms its way into the unconscious.

			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Self-knowledge of bookstore workers & others
Keywords: curious areas of ignorance  
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Distribution: na,local
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:49:49 GMT

In article <C0E330.EwI@athena.cs.uga.edu> fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes:
>stoddard@ccit.arizona.edu (MJ STODDARD) writes:

... (of Mr. Holmes)
 >and train schedules, he was actively annoyed when Watson tried to
 >tell him about celestial mechanics (So what if the earth goes around
 >the sun? What does that have to do with detection?).
 >
 >Cetainly, this is an admirable dedication to essential matters.
 
 
>leg about this, but I think it quite conceivable that he was serious.  The
>*very* highest mental achievements require a level of concentration and 
>monomania that excludes quite a bit of mundanity. (Questioner: "How did
>you hatch your great idea?"  Isaac Newton: "Nocte dieque incubando.")

I've seen some quite startling examples of this.  When the Magellenic
Cloud supernova went off, I raced down the hall crying the news.  NOONE
in my research group (even the Boss, a Yalie of great eminence) knew that
this was the first nearby supernova since the invention of the telescope, and 
was at least two centuries overdue.  Scientists, for god's sake.

			Chuck Smythe
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:51:16 GMT

                                 Friday, the 8th of January, 1993

Steve Pope writes:
  An amusing thing happens if you disallow wrongful termination
  action for termination due to "sexual orientation".

  You then have a situation where an employer can fire *any*
  employee, listing whatever their sexual orientation is
  as the reason, and be free from any consequences.

  In other words, just like the old days...

Ahh, yes, Steve, but don't you mean the good old days?... :-)

                  Mike Morris
         (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean P. Engelson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Legal theory, Homophobia, and the Bible
Date: 6 Jan 1993 11:25:54 -0500
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Distribution: world
Reply-To: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: argentina.ai.cs.yale.edu

In article <1ietlqINNfeo@transfer.stratus.com>, lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann) writes:
|> 
|> I'd be curious to hear a rational argument from someone.

Well, what exactly did the measures say?  I happen to be of the belief
that it's generally better not to single out certain groups for a
special "do not discriminate" status, both because this implicitly
encourages discrimination against other groups not so listed, and
because it affords certain sorts of grouping legal (hence, objective)
status, some of which groupings I may not believe should have such.
Admittedly, this view requires rather sweeping legal changes, in view
of the (understandable) "quick-fix" history of rights legislation.
The question then may not be one of homophobia, but rather related to
more general questions of legal theory, in the same way that almost no
rational thinking person would have voted for the recent Canadian
amendment package, regardless of their beliefs on the Quebec question.

|> To attempt to connect
|> this thread to books, the only arguments I hear are 
|> connected to a book----the Bible.  The arguments usually become "because the
|> Bible said so." Leviticus also has prohibitions against eating cheeseburgers  
|> and braiding your hair.

I'm an orthodox Jew and hence attempt to observe these prohibitions
(note that this is very different from supporting legislation about
same).  However, I've *never* heard about a prohibition on braiding
hair.  Where is this, please?  I'm most curious.

|> I haven't seen any government measures in this country  
|> to outlaw either of these sinful acts.  (Aside from the fact that while the  
|> bits of the Old Testament can be interpreted to condemn male homosexuality, 
|> it doesn't say anything about female homosexuality anywhere.)

Quite true.  However, "can be interpreted" is rather misleading, as it
takes quite a bit of rather leading "interpretation" to contend that
the verses in question do _not_ condemn male homosexuality.

-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520			
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to the LOORSWALOB???
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:22:42 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <C0pI63.776@cck.coventry.ac.uk> cei308@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Jet Girl) writes:

>I've been on my Christmas vacation over the past three weeks and I get
>back and find that the LOORSWALOB seem to have disappeared!!!!
>
>What has happened????  Did they all get married to IBM salesmen after all???

Ah well, this member has been busy with (ahem) wedding plans.  However, in
keeping with the spirit of LOORSWALOB, we are having high tea for our
wedding reception.  I feel that this excuses me somewhat for leaving
spinsterhood behind.  I suspect I shall want to start a chapter that
admits married spinsters; we shall celebrate paradox in all things.  I was
proposed to, after all, on Spinster's Day.

ObBooks:  I'm continuing to enjoy "Vanity Fair"; are Thackeray's other
books as good?  And I'm wondering what other satire of that period goes
down well.  I hadn't realized the Victorians could be so nasty and so
*funny*.  



-- 
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time.     -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 7 Jan 93 04:06:23 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1if7vvINNds8@aludra.usc.edu> rhogan@aludra.usc.edu (Ron Hogan) writes:
>The thing that annoys me the most, I think, is the way her arguments
>generally rely on multiple repititions of her thesis points-- "Elizabeth
>Taylor is a modern Nefertitti," for example. (a paraphrase, btw)  Proof
>of these 'points' tends to lie in yet another blanket assertion of their
>truth, because *she said them*.

Well, her style is oracular, and her purpose is to engage the mind.
I rather appreciate the way she draws the reader into arguments with
her.  And when she makes a good point, it's something to be savored.
She's brash and out on the edge, but always intelligent.  It's hard
to dismiss her outright, though many people might quarrel with one
thing or another.

>Basically, I think she's a pundit wannabe who's using her academic
>position as an excuse to write about whatever she feels like.  Which
>isn't so bad, and I've got a better feeling for her writing than,
>for example, Todd Gitlin, but she's a pop writer with a degree.

Maybe.  When she wrote _Sexual Personae_ she wasn't much of a pundit,
and her academic credentials were even less shiny than they are now.

The December US magazine, which I read today in my doctor's office
while waiting for a flu shot, has a rather negative review of Madonna's
latest literary endeavor, Sex.  It probably killed her to say what she
did, but she didn't have much choice, after all.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Paglia:  clarification needed
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:13:21 GMT

How on earth can some of you claim that Paglia is *not* a difference
feminist when she says that if women had been responsible for 
civilization, we'd all be living in grass huts?  She may insist on
equal rights, but her insistence on absolute differences based on
biology render her insistence on social equality rather tepid, in my
view.  Sorry, but I don't see Paglia has some great advocate for 
women.  She is a great advocate for Madonna and herself, and that's
about it.

michael mcdonald
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.misc,soc.history
From: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Subject: Alternate History List posted
Reply-To: schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu (Robert Schmunk)
Organization: Dept. of Space Physics, Rice University, Houston TX
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:05:11 GMT

This is to announce that the 13th version of the Alternate History List,
an annotated bibliography of alternate history short stories and novels,
has just been made to rec.arts.sf.written. If you don't read that news-
group but would still like a copy, drop me a line and I'll e-mail you a
copy. The list should also be available by anonymous ftp through the sf
archive at <elbereth.rutgers.edu> within a few days.

-- 
Robert B. Schmunk <schmunk@spacsun.rice.edu>
SPAC, Rice Univ, Box 1892, Houston, TX 77251 USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[He] turned back to the window and the opaque Houston sky. "You know, there
isn't anything wrong with this town that a couple of really good hurricanes
couldn't fix."                                      --Peter Gent, THE FRANCHISE
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Clapshot (was: Celebrating McGonagall)
Date: 12 Jan 1993 01:08:07 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Heather Henderson writes:

	Clapshot is a side dish that consists of equal amounts of mashed 
	potato and yellow turnip whipped together, with sauteed minced 
	onion and chopped parsley added (and butter and milk and salt 
	and pepper).  

Try the noble mangold-wurzel in place of the turnip, and for a real thrill
parsnip. In the case of parsnip I prefer two thirds potato to one third
parsnip.

						RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: HALO (Was Re: Shouting at robots
Organization: The Inner Circle
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:03:53 GMT



dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:

>  Proffessor Taranto says he likes my story (thanks, Mark!), but he
> also reveals what may be a major development in Maddox's book "Halo",
> and adds a hint of the resolution ('thanks a lot', Mark!).

David keeps insisting on granting me titles and degrees which I have not
earned.  I'm content with the title I have (especially since Dan Quayle
will no longer have the same title).

But David can be secure in the knowledge that I did not give away any
secrets from the book by Professor Maddox.


>  Maybe you can mail me your copy, Mark!

Only if you are willing to drive it up to Berkely so Tom can sign it, and
then return it when you are done.

Mark


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books