HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: When Will NeXT Prices Drop? 
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 18:05:46 GMT

Katarina Wong O'Gara writes
> When the slab came out, it was a great deal in terms of
> price/performance.  The main issue two years ago was the
> viability of the platform.  Well, that is still an issue
> two years later, but the price/performance benny is not
> there (you can get a 486/50 with *color* and with sound
> and graphics capabilities roughly comparable, if inferior,
> to NeXT's for $1,600).
> 
> What gives?

Some of us have been wondering about that for a long time.  The price  
comparison is not quite as bad as that, once you figure in the cost  
of loading in things you get for free on a NeXT, and prices _have_  
dropped somewhat implicitly (the turbo slab is barely more expensive  
than the original slab and has a much larger HD), but its definitely  
getting to the point where NeXT is barely competitive.

How can you sell people on this machine when over $3000 colors at edu  
prices (not street) doesn't even get them color?

Either NeXT was losing money hand over fist two years ago when the  
slab was introduced, or there should be room for reducing prices now.


--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: NeXT sighting on NBC!
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:00:01 GMT

My wife claims that during this morning's NBC Today show
the female host (I've lost track of her name) asked Briant
Gumbal (sp?) a question while he was off-camera, and as
the camera picked him up for his responce, he was tapping
away at a NeXTstation! 

--
Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
New Haven, CT
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: NT is *NOT* Mach!
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 07:55:40 GMT

In article <jbone.715976006@splat>, jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone) writes:
|> 
|> Alex Raftis writes:
|> >
|> >For those who are not aware, NT is apparantly built upon a Mach kernal.
|> 
|> NT != MACH !!!!

The confusion probably arises because Rick Rashid, who you'll all know as one
of the 'authors' of Mach (no it wasn't Avie on his own !), and some other Mach
guys are now working for Microsoft and no doubt bringing their Mach experience
to bear.

Still as somebody from DEC said VMS++== WNT.

|> The Mach API is free and open.  If MS had used it, they wouldn't have been
|> able to "lock in" the marketplace

A great leap of thinking here.  If Windows ran on top of Mach the marketplace
would still be 'locked into' Window.  The Mach API may be free and open but it's
not much good to anyone without some OS (server or personality) on top.




Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: Jack Reynolds Apologizes to the Net (RTF)
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:49:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.183415.1071@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
smb3u@squeeg.psyc.virginia.edu (Steven M. Boker) writes:
> In article <875@rtbrain.rightbrain.com> reynolds@rightbrain.com writes:
> >
>    [An eloquent apology deleted]
> 
> Good work, Jack.  Public relations is a difficult business and you've
> just scored a lot of points for your side.
> 
> I'd also like to mention that Rightbrain has, IMHO, been a good citizen
> of the net on the whole.

Bahahahaha.  You must be joking.  Hey, I like the products (and
purchase them), but Glenn's absurdly huge RTF advertisements are infamous.

> The freedom (nay, anarchy) of the Usenet is a joy

A view often held by those who have high-speed internet connections
that they don't personally pay for...

--
Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
New Haven, CT
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu
Subject: Re:   Nextstep on NT
Organization: CAPVAX, JHU/APL
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:25:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.222915.1@capd.jhuapl.edu>, waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:
> In article <1992Sep13.183848.473@prim>, prim!dave@germany.eu.net (Dave Griffiths) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep12.205400.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes:
>>>
>>>	Clarity's a good thing.  I'll try too 8^)
>>>
>>>	I distinguish between NT (the pre-emptive multi-tasking, microkernal
>>>	OS) and the various flavors of user interface (Windows, OS/2, POSIX,
>>>	DOS) that sits on top.  When I say NT is a nice piece of work done by
>>>	a top flight group of professionals, I refer to the OS and not the
>>>	UIs.  For someone used to NeXTSTEP, Windows probably does seem like a
>>>	piece of crap.  When I advocate porting NeXTSTEP to NT to avoid having
>>>	to use the Windows and other alternative UIs, I am NOT advocating
>>>	porting NeXTSTEP on top of Windows.  Instead, NeXTSTEP would be an
>>>	alternative UI built directly on top of the NT OS.
>>>
>> 
>> I'm sympathetic to your idea, but since we're looking for clarity here I
>> think you should explain how you envisage NeXTStep living alongside Windows
>> on NT. As you know, NT will have a Windows GUI and it is under this that the
>> majority of NT applications will run. Presumably your goal in porting NeXTStep
>> to NT is to be able to run all these Windows apps as well as NeXT apps
>> (otherwise what do you gain?). So how will NeXTStep live alongside the
>> Windows GUI? Presumably they both want total control of the screen? Do you
>> envisage a hot key to switch between the two environments? It's by no means
>> certain that this problem is solvable. It was done for X on the NeXT, but
>> only because the X source code is freely available. This won't be the case
>> for Windows on NT. Will NeXT modify _their_ stuff to use the Windows server?
>> (Ugh!)
>> 
>> What about the hard disk? Will NeXTStep and Windows be able to share the
>> same disk such that you can browse through the DOS filesystem under
>> WorkSpace manager and vice-versa? Printer support? Networking?
>> 
>> This is beginning to sound like a lot of work. I know that NeXT ported to
>> AIX and if that was possible maybe anything is, but NeXTStep and AIX both
>> had UNIX in common (filesystem, drivers, system calls could be shared) and
>> there was no alternative GUI.
>> 
>> If NeXTStep on NT takes over the machine and can't co-exist with Windows
>> on NT then you gain nothing and might as well save the bother and run raw
>> NeXTStep 486.
>> 
>> Dave Griffiths
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman)
Subject: Re: NT is *NOT* Mach!
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:59:07 GMT

jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone) writes:
>
>NT != MACH !!!!
>
>Do the homework.  NT is architecturally *similar* to Mach, but Billy is
>NOT NOT NOT using the Mach microkernel.  That'd make far too much sense.
>And if it WAS Mach, they could basically throw in a UNIXalike environment
>essentially for free.  No, they hired Dave Cutler of VMS fame (yet another
>proprietary OS) to throw together something all of their own.
>
>The Mach API is free and open.  If MS had used it, they wouldn't have been
>able to "lock in" the marketplace.
>
>references:  see the Jul-Aug '92 issue of Microsoft Systems Journal, "A
>Grand Tour of Windows NT:  Portable 32-bit Multiprocessing Comes to
>Windows" for an architectural overview of this monstrosity.
>

Whats more is Microsoft state (in the above referenced journal) that
they are *not* going to tell people how to access the actual kernel.
All interfacing with NT has to be via one of the user-level
subsystems, i.e. MS-DOS, OS/2, POSIX or WIN32.

Has this changed? Will MS let others create sub-systems? I and at
least one other person asked this question about a month ago on one of
the windows newsgroups (frequented by MS employess who are all too
eager to espouse NT's features) and got no response.
-- 
Andy Newman (andy@research.canon.oz.au)		"int - God's own type"
From: dan@writer.yorku.ca (Dan O'Connell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: RightBrain etc. etc. etc.
Date: 11 Sep 92 16:43:15 GMT
Organization: Computer Assisted Writing Centre, York University, Toronto, Canada
Originator: dan@grant

Quite interesting, all of the hot flashes that have been making  up 
this topic for the last while. But while it sure makes for interesting
reading, I am not so certain that it is effective. (What does it
accomplish?) Does it really matter if the Net is populated by bright
teenagers with time on their hands. Does it really matter if someone
really did sneak in some advertising? 
My problem is simple. I need to get things done and the network is
an effective (that word again) tool that helps me. IMHO someone should
throw a bucket of really *cold* water on this topic and let Right rain
get on with finishing Paste Up.

Dan O'Connell
TaNG North

Do they also serve who only stand and wait?
From: thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:25:00 GMT
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA

Bruce F. Webster writes
> I'm a great NeXTSTEP fan--and our entire company is certainly betting on it  
> right now--but how long do you think it will be until there are 1M NS  
> installations?  ..bruce..

Grandiloquent answer: 1M NS installations by 2001 (maybe earlier).

The reality is that volume NS is not around the corner - at least the volume  
seen in the Intel and Apple worlds. Sun has not reached 1M installations and I  
wonder how many of Sun's annual sales now are replacement sales (over 80% of  
Sun sales in our division in the last 18 months were/are replacements).

Unix as Unix has sort of peaked in installation quantity. Unix as a hidden  
engine inside something more user-friendly (in the mere mortal sense) might  
find a bigger market --- the grand challenge for NeXT. The key is, IMHO, going  
more and more to custom enterprise-wide apps and producing some world class  
apps that match PC and Mac apps better. Of course, we shall all see some of  
these from BW and other horses at Seybold next week.

Mark R. Thomsen
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: quarrie@cds001.cebaf.gov (David Quarrie)
Subject: Re: RightBrain Software File Server: up and running
Reply-To: quarrie@cds001.cebaf.gov (David Quarrie)
Organization: CEBAF (Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:47:16 GMT

--
I'd like to thank Glenn for his extremely rapid response to this. It's very
easy to say that he should have thought of it sooner, but I for one know that
that isn't always how life works. Experience is what allows you to recognise
your mistakes the second time you make them. It also allows you to generate
a rapid and effective solution when needed!

As one of the silent majority let me add my two cents worth to this sordid
tale:

  (a)	All this shouting has generated far more junk and used far more
	bandwidth than all the RFT postings I think I have ever seen in these 
	newsgroups.

  (b)	Glenn (and many others who post here) are in the enviable positions
	of having made very positive contributions towards the success of the
	computer and environment we all hope will succeed in the marketplace.
	Most of the noise seems to be coming from others who don't fit into
	this category (and I include myself as one of the latter).

  (c)	I also agree with Glenn that we must be able to move forwards past the
	lowest-common-demonimator or we might as well all head back to the
	hills and start on the flint arrowheads again. The transitional period
	is always the hardest but there must be a way to go forwards (and yes,
	I voted for separate RTF groups).

I just feel I should add more support for Glenn and his crew.

Disclaimers:

I don't read these newsgroups on a NeXT so can't even decode the RTF postings.
I don't pay for my newsfeed but am thinking of unsubscribing c.s.n.advocacy.
I haven't bought any RightBrain software since I haven't (yet) needed what it
does for me. I will tho'!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	David Quarrie					CEBAF MS 12H
							12000 Jefferson Ave
Internet: quarrie@cebaf.gov				Newport News VA 23606
DECnet  : cebaf::quarrie				Tel: (804) 249-7562
BITNET  : quarrie@cebaf					Fax: (804) 249-7363
From: glenn@rightbrain.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why doesn't RightBrain and others do this? (was: Re: PasteUp vs PageMaker vs Quark (RTF))
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:06:15 GMT
Reply-To: glenn@rightbrain.com

J.B. Nicholson-Owens writes

> Yes!  I don't understand why Jack Reynolds insisted on posting when  
> RightBrain could have set up (or *used* if it's already set up) some  
> mailing service that answers to info@rightbrain.com and mails out whatever  
> publicity info you request.

Well, we didn't think we needed one until this discussion, and now we've
got one set up!  Thanks to everybody who suggested it.

> In the case that this service is already set up, I don't want to hear  
> about it because I don't care about RightBrain's products.

No problem; we've programmed it so it won't send you any information
even if you ask it to :-)

--
 Glenn Reid        		NeXTmail: glenn@rightbrain.com
 RightBrain Software		415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
 Palo Alto, California
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: matt@zeb.ame.nd.edu (Matthew J. Grismer)
Subject: NeXT in CNN Headline news story
Keywords: next,cnn
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:33:40 GMT

In a CNN Headline News story about Hollywood, there were camera shots of  
people at the William Morris Agency (I think) with color NeXTstations on  
their desks.

MJG
NeXTmail preferred
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Subject: Re: Open Letter: Don't get rid of UNIX
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:35:31 GMT

In article <92245.124351MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu> <MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>It should be possible to build an OOFS on top of Unix, or at least one
>that offers all of the regular Unix system calls.  Therefore, programs
>like csh, sh, and all the shell/filter/pipe model programs will continue
>to work.

I think you got it backwards...  it would be an OODBMS with a Unix
file system interface on top of it.  The unix interface would only be
there for campatibility reasons, and NeXTSTEP would fully exploit the
OODBMS (persistant objects and the like).

All of these rumors are just that, rumors.

andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "We shall not cease from exploration
Andrew Loewenstern      |  And the end of our exploring
Cube Technologies, Inc. |  Will be to arrive where we started
                        |  And know the place for the first time." -T.S. Eliot
From: vin@netcom.com (Vin Locke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT, DTP, and Kodak Photo CD
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:44:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <dtlnm5m.mslade@netcom.com> mslade@netcom.com (Michael Slade) writes:
>mdw@corona.att.com writes:
>
>>Over in rec.photo, there is considerable discussion regarding the new
>>Kodak Photo CD and Kodak's licensing arrangements for translating the
>>stored images from their (proprietary) format to other formats.
>
>>They offer software for PeeCees and Mack's for a nominal fee, but the
>>only Unix box they are looking at is Sun.

Hmmmm.  Kodak owned Interactive for a while.  
	Sun bought (or somehow co-opted) Interactive.
	Perhaps there's a pool of technical familiarity somwhere in the 
	organization ... ?



-- 
					--vin

vin@netcom.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Subject: Re: Avoid RightBrain for RTF ? (Who the heck are you people?)
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:41:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.160449.26500@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu  
(Nathan F. Janette) writes:
> The first issue is putting "(RTF)" in the subject line.
> You think this is an unreasonable request?

Perhaps no, but it is an unreasonable DEMAND, and that's how it's 
presented.  Compromise, forgive me if I'm wrong here, involves
input from all parties.
> 
> The second issue is RightBrain's flagrant violation of
> the non-commercial guidelines for the USENET, for which
> you may notice they apologized rather profusely.  You
> think this is unreasonable? 
> 
I think the definition of "commercial" needs study.  My domain ends in
com[mercial].  Am I prohibited from posting at all?  Are you using 
usenet in any way that may benefit you in the future?  Have you ever
asked a question whose answer saved you time?  Or learned something
in a message that helped you master a topic?  I think the 
answer for most of us is yes.  And for most of us that translates to
aiding our careers, and our ability to earn more $$.  So it ain't so 
simple.

And the apology was rendered under duress.  As they stated, they probably
could survive a boycott, and that was a very cruel threat in this time from  
folks generally pretty isolated from the real world economic problems.
They apologized to avoid any risk of putting folks out of work, which you 
were promoting.

> BTW, as one of the first posters to call for using a boycott
> to pressure RightBrain into not posting huge RTF ads, I
> must note that it seems to have worked quite well. 

You can feel proud.

> However, I admire, and intend to (now) continue to
> purchase products from a company that's not too
> self-impressed to make a public apology. 
> 
> > Usenet traffic at my   site has increased from 20 mb a day
> > last June to frequently over 50 mb per day   now.  The trend is
> > going to continue.  Those of you with small pipes better  
> > start looking at enlarging them. 
> 
> No, we simply should cut out RTF postings that have grown
> to be as large as the source/binary group postings and
> move them to a separate group, and the same for ads, which
> belong in biz.* groups.

I'm afraid that's a head-in-the-sand attitude.  I run a usenet site.
The rate of increase of new groups is itself increasing.  It's not 
the alt.binary and rtf stuff that accounts for all of it, drop all that
and the increase is still staggering.

> 
> Voila, everyone gets (almost) what they want. 
> 
As dictated by you?  I don't think so.  If everyone is involved
in any compromise, all (almost, anyway) will abide by it.  If one
side dictates to the other, you'll have chaos.

> --
> Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
> Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
> New Haven, CT
> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)
Jim
From: alex@fiskville.mc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT vs. (MIDI) Sampler
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:53:11 GMT
Distribution: na

> > No! NeXT as a sampler/harddisk recorder is a toy. So is NeXT
> > as a midi sequencer. NeXT dropped the music kit. Wise decision.
>  
> As far as NeXT as a sampler goes: Yah.  Under 3.0 you can play a
> number of stereo sample simultaneously, but exact timing?  Nor
> pitch control, nor...
> 
> NeXT as a hard disk recording system may be another matter.
> MetroTrack promises amazing things...  I see no reason why the
> NeXT shouldn't be at least as well suited as a Mac or PC, and
> quite possibly better suited.
> 

Well, one can hardly expect new abilities of the operating system to be  
either well supported in existing software or fully explored in the first  
release.  Take for instance the similar ability of the Mac under System 7  
to play stereo sfil format soundfiles from the desktop. Is this simple  
ability the end-all be-all of sound production on the Mac?  Hardly so. It  
does, however, hint at abilities which programs such as SoundEdit have  
begun to take advantage of.  This ability on the Mac doesn't even come  
close to the inherent abilities of the NeXT (re the DSP chip) and there is  
already third party hardware (Zydeco boards, Ariel hardware, the SS A/D64x  
interface) that rival and surpass anything available for the Mac and PC.  
Software is on the way... I personally see the NeXT as a formidable  
digital audio / MIDI workstation and I have chosen it over the Mac or PC.

Alex
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edwardj@microsoft.com (Edward Jung)
Subject: Re: NT is *NOT* Mach!
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:29:34 GMT
Organization: Strategy Division, Microsoft Corp.

Jeff Bone writes:

>...so if I decide to write a SVR4 server for NT, even if it is technically
>possible, I won't be able to.  Yup, sure sounds open to me.  Microsoft's
>starting to sound like a B-rate sci-fi/horror flick from the 60's:
>
>            "We will control all that you see and hear..." 
>

Jeff, make certain you check the facts first. If you work for the
same Dell that OEMs DOS, then your company may well have the license
to write their own user-level subsystem. The main issue on the MS
side has to do with whether we support any such subsystem changes.

The kernel API is not very interesting to 99.9% of the programmers.
However, do not be suprised if a book describing it appears in the
bookstores.

Also, you should all be aware that I would be more than happy to
have NeXT run NeXTstep on NT. It is certainly far less-likely now
that it was a little while ago, but one can always hope... in
general, Steve seems less interested in moving NeXTstep to NT
than in having MS license NeXTstep for NT for mucho bucks per
copy, something that is more of the workstation economics than
the PC economics.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ddj+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio)
Subject: Re: Next vs Macintosh for the Graphic Professional (rtf)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:12:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.235946.22798@cube.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
>> 2. Their NeXT's are not on the 'net and they use another for mail/news
>> 3. They don't like Mail.app
>
> As to 2., they are missing much.

Many have no choice.

> and as to 3.  
>(ducking..)
>I class it along with folks that must have EMACS key bindings, etc, on their  
>NeXT editors, and other examples of an inflexible unix mindset on a platform  
>that is able to rise above all the little grey memory based clicisms that
>haunt unix.

Unfounded.  What about people who don't use Mail.app because it won't
work for them (like andrew.cmu.edu folks using public NeXTs) or
because they're using something NeXT-based that they like *better*?
-- 
Doug DeJulio
ddj+@cmu.edu
From: jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Feeling kinda bad...  (Re: New idea ... (long))
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:02:15 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co


Feeling kinda bad --- I was pretty rough on Chris and Mark, and I
sounded a bit more pompous and a bit more rabid than I intended.
I just wanted to make the point that my opinion is at least informed
and based on experience, rather than religious dogma (tho there's
some of that too... ;)

Everybody's got an opinion...  it's just that some of us are right
and some are wrong. ;) ;)


Viva NeXT!  Viva UNIX!


jb



--
-- Jeff Bone ------------------------------------------------------------
      "Imagination is more important than knowledge."  - A. Einstein
------------------------------------------------------- jbone@dell.com --
                                                                       --
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy