From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Looking for "women's" rpg.
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:17:44 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Note: I've taken this out of the rec.* groups, as it is no longer appropriate
there.

In article <Bu8xtz.K9G@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu 
(Dartanyan the Witchling) writes:
> In article <1992Sep7.050613.18485@galileo.physics.arizona.edu> 
krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu (Ted Krueger) writes:
>>In article <Bu5Bxx.M3@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu 
(Dartanyan the Witchling) writes:
>>>>Since there is not any evidence that there ever was a truly matriarcal 
>>>>society of any impact, the type of campaign you speak of could be 
>>>>completely original.  I encourage people to create their own societies, 
>>>>and not be bound by any attempt to copy history.
>>>
>>>
>>>	I recommend you read _The Mists Of Avalon_ by Marion Zimmer
>>>Bradley.
>>>	
>>>	I must warn you, the Women on this group are gonna flame you to
>>>cinders.
>>>					D	
>>
>>I own _The Mists Of Avalon_.  Excellent science fiction.  Let 'em 
> 
> 	Historical Fiction with a bit of Fantasy (the matriarchal society
> Not being a part of the Fantasy or of Fiction, merely Historical.)

_The Mists of Avalon_, as I understand it, is a retelling of the King Arthur
myths with a feminist slant to it.  It is, in any event, a work of fiction, and
hardly a serious citation for the existence of Matriarchal societies.

>>flame away, facts are facts.  (If they want citations, I'm prepared.)
> 
> 	Well, then maybe you should start basing what you say on them (facts).
> 	You cannot give "citations" that a matriarchal society didn't exist,
> rather that one did.  

What he can give citations of are refutations of claims that matriarchal
societies existed.  I would suggest that both of you give citations for your
respective claims.

> 	I'm not saying Matriarchal societies NECESSARILY existed (to any avail 
> -- it is known they Did exist, just whether any of them were noteworthy), 
> but to say they NEVER did is a stupid, sweeping, and massively 
> chauvinistically assumptive gesture.
> 	Rather, you should say, You don't THINK any existed to any avail.
>
> 	Of course, you can justify saying it your way by stating that in your
> opinion, being Matriarchal qualifies as not noteworthy, but I don't think you 
> should.

I don't understand what you mean by existing "to any avail", but the existence
of matriarchal societies is nowhere nearly as established as you seem to think. 
It is the topic of severe controversy, as witnissed in this very discussion.

note: matrilinear != matriarchal
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.