From: stevens@eatdust (John Stevens)
Subject: Re: Observations
Organization: Only over my confused, dazed body!
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:52:56 GMT

In article <78826@ut-emx.uucp> andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard) writes:
>stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>>smccabe@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah A McCabe) writes:
>
>>?????  But that is JUST what YOU are doing.  You are trying to make
>>the right to abortion a law on the basis of "because I say so".
>
>No, on the basis of "those who object need not get one, those who
>do not object will not have to worry about self-induced hysterectomies".

You miss my point.  The father has to get an "abortion" (loose his child).
This is NOT "those who object need not get one".

>She is trying to occupy the middle ground and not mandate ANY action
>or beliefs.

She IS trying to mandate beliefs if she supports the abortion
status quo.

>She is not forcing anyone.  No one is knocking on your door, asking you
>to sign a belief statement about fetuses.  You may believe whatever you
>wish.

You are right.  They are NOT knocking at my door.  They are simply going
toenforce their will on me, irregardless of my wishes or beliefs.

Under the status quo, I already live in a country that legally enforces
a certain belief system upon the members of my family.

>I'm going to try another tack here.

Feel free.  But how about listening to me as closely as you want me to
listen to you?

>John, you DO realize that the fetus/embryo/baby/whatever is completely
>disjoint from the father's body, don't you?

Nope.  Part of me now exists PHYSICALLY separated from me, but it is
still a part of me, and I have a GREAT deal of interest in what happens
to it.

>That the father suffers no true physical effects?

Under current law, this is not true either.  I can be REQUIRED to work
to support the child in question for 18 YEARS.  If don't consider this
to be a violation of my right to bodily autonomy, or if you don't
consider this to be a physical effect, what is it?

>The woman does all the physical work of a pregnancy.

Wrong again.  The mother simply supplies nutrients.  The physical work
of development is done by the fetus.

If you mean that the woman must carry the child for nine months, and
eat enough to feed the fetus as well as herself, you are correct.

But as my wife said to my son when he was nursing last night, "Daddy
works to feed me, and I feed you."

If the father is not willing to be a father, he should not have sex.
If he does become a father, he should be responsible for half the
maintenance of the child.

You see, I believe that both men AND WOMEN should be responsible for
their actions.

>Why, then, should
>the man have any say in whether or not she chooses to go through nine
>months of literally back-breaking labor (no pun intended -- sorry) when
>he cannot share the burden?

He does share the burden.  He does not HAVE to.  But I picked up, carried,
cleaned and then worked my ass off during the labor when my wife was
pregnant.  And I work to take care of my child at home.

The woman does not HAVE to be pregnant, either.  But we've had that discussion
before.

>The man can walk away AT ANY TIME; the woman
>does not have that luxury.

The man CAN NOT walk away at any time.  Immediately after the birth, the
woman can apply for child support, and in almost all cases get it.

You are not telling the truth here.

>How you can claim that the man and woman should have equal rights in the
>decision is beyond me, when they don't share equally in the actual work
>of hosting this new life.

And how you can keep conviently forgetting paternity suits and child
support payments is beyond me.

I will provisionally agree with you that the man should not have equal
rights in the decision, IF THE COURTS CANNOT HOLD THE MAN RESPOSIBLE
IN ANY WAY.

With the last provision, it becomes obvious that whether or not you
get an abortion becomes purely a personal decision, since the father
has neither rights or obligations the moment he exits the bed.

But until this occurs, men have obligations, and they ought to have
rights.

John
stevens@uswest.com
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,talk.politics.misc