From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: WHO OWNS WHO?...or is it whom?...or what?
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:14:22 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Aug14.205005.15673@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com writes:
> <1992Aug13.211626.15421@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.):
> >In <16e9bfINNijc@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@sdd.hp.com writes:
> >> In article <1992Aug13.155229.7513@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
> >>[deletion]
> >>>  I was merely bringing Gordon's statement to heel.  Unwanted (or even wanted,
> >>>for that matter) pregnancies CAN do all these things--with the effect of "ruin."
> >>>But it is NOT a certainty.  Or highly likley.
> >> 
> >>How can you tell?
> >
> >  How can you?  Got any hard data?  I've been looking (obviously in the wrong
> >places) to no avail.  And you've deleted a lot--including my questions.
> 
> I admit I do not have "hard data" on this, although it has been posted
> here before.  Perhaps someone will repost it.  What I wonder is why anyone
> has to justify to you what they do with their own bodies.

  The why is a question only they can answer, since they do not have to justify
anything to me to do what they want.  If someone wishes to justify their dec-
ision, that is up to them.  Very often, we make decisions that can affect other
people.  There is no one forcing us to justify ourselves.  It is no requirement
of taking an action.  Often the need to justify lies within, not without, an
individual.  This applies primarily to those decisions of a personal nature.

> >  Gordon Storga is not a pregnant woman.  
> 
> Thanks for noticing. ;-)

  Well, it was the whiskers that were a dead give-away...

> The main reason why my comments are accepted over yours is that you are
> advocating oppression of women (to a certain extent), while I am
> advocating freedom for women.

  For those of you missing my other post, I took pains to remind everyone
that I am anti-abortion, not anti-choice.  Gordon noticed this in another
post.  So I'm not in the oppresion business.

> >  Just between you and me and the the rest of the world, I'd vote for the
> >pregnant woman too.  She's a lot more likely to know--but there's no
> >guaruntee either.
> 
> There are no gaurentees in life.  Only probabilities.  Each person must
> decide for themselves what that means to them.

  Bingo.  Thus it behooves us to discuss the effects, and leave the decisions
and the language ("ruin") to those making them.  As I noted elsewhere, it is
important to realize what is ruin to one person is merely an inconvenience to
another--but simply saying the word causes them both to see what THEY consider
ruin, even if the speaker has something else in mind entirely in the way of 
effects..

> Again I say, if the women feels it (pregnancy) is ruining her life, then
> it is ruining her life.  

  Then it is best we leave the terminology to her.

> If someone can post "hard data" I'd like to see it too.

  Look for something along these lines around 12 noon CST, Monday August 17.
I'll be posting some of the effects of pregnancy.  While I believe these will
prove useful, there is very little in the way of statistics on problems or
after-effects that we might agree are "ruinous", though there is mention of
some.  I apologize for being a little late (I wanted to post these tonight,
which is Sunday), but my errands ran long.  Any amplifications prior or
post my own listing would be higly appreciated.  Maybe this would make a
good addition to the FAQ?

semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc