HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ubvax!fcn@ub-gate.UB.com (Fredrik Noon)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Springfield Amoury Toy Broke ...
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:00:33 GMT
Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc.

In article <1993Jan23.073134.15624@michael.apple.com>, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# 
# 
# Well,the luster is off a little bit... I was changing the grips
# on my new SA 1911-A1 and the little fittings that the grip screw
# screws into came of of the frame.  (It is like a bushing with a 

I bought my SA "90's Edition" (dumb name) last summer and had the same
thing happen on me.  Not being very sophisticated about these things--
this is my first gun--I did the locktight number on it and have been very
careful with that part of the gun since.  Perhaps I should have been more
indignant?

Another matter that someone with more experience than I might be able to
extemporate upon: my gun has a Parkerized finish, which I thought wasn't
as prone to rusting as the blue, but I found that by the end of the Summer
(and in San Jose, Summers are *dry*) there were small areas of rust appearing
on exterior surfaces, those that weren't getting the scrubbing I was applying
to the innards (although I thought that I was coating the whole critter enough
to lubracate).  Of course I'm paying more attention to this now (and cleaning
my gun more often in full daylight!), but, in general, what is recommended
for care and feeding of Parkerized guns?
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:54 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> guns is the A-team or McGuiver, and a prosecuter gratefull for any
-> help you so give him in painting a picture of a reckless or
-> bloodthirsty defendant. If you know of a police department that
-> issues ammo you like, choose that ammo, and give their choice of it
-> as your reason.

 Massad Ayoob recommends factory ammo instead of reloads for the same
basic reason.  It's one of the few areas where I respectfully disagree.

 "Mr. Williams, isn't it true you loaded that ammunition for the express
  purpose of murdering defenseless citizens?"

 "Nope.  Is it true you expose yourself in the men's room?"

 <disorder>

 "For what purpose DID you load that ammunition?"

 "I like to shoot, and I'm not a prosecutor with money rolling out his
  ears, so I buy the pieces-parts and load up my own.  Did you know a
  box of .45s costs $17.95 at Wal-Mart?  My reloads cost $4.50 per box."



 You can reel off a few yards of that and cut it to fit.  Any reasonably
competent defense attorney ought to be able to turn your handloads into
an advantage instead of a liability, assuming the prosecutor was foolish
enough to bring it up.  Frankly, I don't believe anyone would even
notice what the gun was loaded with, much less examine the cases for
microscopic signs of having been resized in a die.
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:19 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <1993Jan24.071954.11497@chpc.org> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
 >In article <JANECZKO.93Jan20222918@csd630a.erim.org> janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
 >No matter how good you are at reloading, you're not going to match
 >the process control and monitoring of a "real" ammo factory (note
 >that I am excluding "private label small volume" ammo like MagSafe
 >where you merely buy someone else's reloading service).

I think this is baloney.  What "real" factory

  *visually and touch- inspects every cartridge case for gross defects
   like neck splits, missing, improper size or misplaced flash hole,
   rim and/or extraction groove defect
  *visually inspects every primer to ensure it has an anvil
   and something under it
  *primes each case by "feel" rather than seating by depth, thus
   ensuring anvils are bottomed-out
  *weighs every powder charge
  *visually inspects every charged case for approximately same powder 
   level
  *visually and touch- inspects every bullet
  *seals each finished cartridge primer with lacquer
  *function-tests 1/6 of finished cartridges before accepting the
   small lot for service use

Also, I prefer once-fired cases to new ones, despite some folk's
recommendations to use new cases for service.  I have more confidence
in a case that's proved that it has no defect that will cause it to
fail on the first firing.
-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns used in assassinations
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:26 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1993Jan24.023112.17358@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

<#Here's a rather morbid question:  what were the makes and models
<#of guns used in various assassinations and attempts?  For instance,
<#an Italian Carcano was used on JFK; what was used in the murders
<#of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bobby Kennedy, and the
<#attempts on Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan?


<   Lee Harvey Oswald:  Colt "Cobra" or "Agent", aluminum
<   framed .38 Spl with hammer shroud.
	
<   Malcom X: some sort of 9mm para pistol.
	
	Huh? Every account I've read indicated a shotgun
	was used here.

<	   George Wallace:  Charter Arms "undercover" .38 Spl.
<	   G. Ford:  1911 .45??  I am guessing on this one.  Wasn't it
<   one of Charlie's Angels, Sqeaky, that tried it?
	
	Correct, Squeeky Fromm didn't bother to learn how
	to operate the Browning design, fortunately, so she
	pulled the trigger with the hammer down. One account
	claimed the chamber was empty, another claimed it 
	was loaded. All agreed the M1911A1 wasn't cocked.

<   * BTW a show last night on Fox said that the FBI declined to do
<   any tests on James Earl Ray's rifle to determine if has even 
<   been fired since the last time it was cleaned (it was found 
<   moments after the murder), or to see if its rifling matches 
<   that on the fully intact bullet they recovered from MLK.

<   According to the show, to this day they refuse to allow any 
<   tests of this sort to be done on the rifle.  "The case is
<   closed", I guess.

	Huh. Seems a bit strange...
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: Walther??
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:28 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <01GTVMBB730Y8WYON1@nic.CSU.net> cvakg001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:

#Are you speaking of the Walther 88?  If, so, have you shot one?

	I have one.  Nice gun, but not worth $1500.  I paid 7&change for
	mine.  For that money, it is good, but I would not pay more.
#
#I am also considering the SIG 226 and the glock 17, and  maybe even a HK P7 
#for I pefer ambidextrous. 

	The 226 is a great pistol.  I have a 220 (.45 ACP) and would not trade
	it for anything, except maybe an original .44 Automag.

#The local gunshops and ranges
#have little info on the Walther other than it's accuracy. 
#What I'm looking for, is the usual- accuracy, longevity, cleaning, feeding, 
#availibility and cost of parts, and overall performance.

	Very well built.  From the slide rails down, the P88 has no equal,
	not even the SIG, though it is VERY close.  The ergonomics are
	excellent.  One ambidexterous lever releases the slide and drops the
	hammer.  No way to hit the wrong lever.  Workmanship is very good.
	The mag release is also ambi.  Capacity is 15+1.  You can squeeze
	16 if you file the mag follower down about 2 mm (have to take the mag
	apart and file the BOTTOM of the follower, NOT the top :)).  You could
	file it enough to get in 17 and maybe even 18 rounds, but I suspect the
	mag would then be prone to jams.

	The only thing I do not like about the P88 out of the box is the 
	trigger.  Because of the mechanism that raises the back end of the
	firing pin out of the slot that locks it safe, the trigger has a kind
	of mushy feel to it.  For the money they ask, it should have a trigger
	that is damned near match grade IMNSHO.  With use the trigger improves
	quite a lot, but I still think some day I will have a job done on it.

	There is also the P88 COMPACT, which is a substantially different gun.
	I don't care for them.  The ergonomics of the levers are very different,
	e.g. a slide mounted safety lever, like the PPK and others.  Not my
	favorite.  It is not ambidexterous to the same degree as the regular
	P88.  It is about 5/8 inch shorter than the standard P88.  Big deal.
#
#Has any body out there shot one? 

	Yeah, but I'm such a lousy shot, I doubt I could tell you anything of
	value :((((((((((((((((((((((((

#Does anybody know if Walther makes or is planning to make a 10mm?

	That would be interesting.  I was really hoping for a .45 P88, but
	I could live with 10mm.  I'd also like to see a SIG in 10mm.  Anyone
	know if anything like this is in the works?

	-Andy V.
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 10mm and CHP
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:56:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <MAILQUEUE-101.930126081318.288@english.as.ua.edu> DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:
#I heard a similar story about the Glock trials with the CHP --
#apparently Glock sent a shipment of something like 500 pistols to the
#CHP for evaluation. Upon arrival the armorers disassembled the
#pistols to see if the met certain criteria and tossed them aside.
#Emphasis on "tossed them aside" into a pile of Glock parts. Didn't
#bother to clean them.

this did not take place. the CHP trials took place while the Glock
10mm was still under development. they were given a few *prototypes*,
for evaluation of design and ergonomics. they were specifically
instructed that these were not the final production model, and were
not suitable for evaluation of durability, etc.. The CHP ignored this
stipulation and went ahead and torture tested them. they failed, as
one could expect from a not yet fully wrung out prototype.

#When the time for evaluation rolled around they simply assembled the
#Glocks out of the pile of parts at random. This was also done with
#the S&Ws. Apparently, the Glocks were much more "sensitive" to this
#mis-matching of parts than the S&Ws were. The Glocks typically
#experienced frame cracks more often than the S&Ws did, but it wasn't
#uncommon for a Smith to fail in some other respect, i.e, a broken
#extractor, firing pin, etc.

Glocks are *less* sensitive to random part mixing than equivalent
firearms. this of course applies to *production* firearms, not to
prototypes that have been torture tested.

#I seem to recall that once the 10mm had been ruled out as a round due
#to its heavy recoil and the 40 was accepted, the S&W 4006 that made
#the 5000 round mark had a problem with a "creeping" firing pin. The
#pin would work itself loose and had to be pushed back in with a
#finger so testing could resume. While not ruled a product failure (
#she kept on spitting out lead), it finally broke somewhere around
#5200 rounds I think. Glock, as I understood it, had to scramble to
#design a pistol capable of firing the 40 S&W and as such was
#handicapped from a R&D perspective.

i may be mistaken, but i thought that Glock brought their 40S&W to
market *before* smith and wesson! unfortunately, my copy of Peter
Kasler's book on the Glock is on loaner to a friend, so i can't look
it up. time to call my friend and get my book back!!

the CHP tests were gravely biased against the Glock.
-- 
paul theodoropoulos     damiel@netcom.com     (hooools@well.sf.ca.us)

"Those who lack the courage will always find a philosophy to justify it."
      -Albert Camus
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Saigon Smuggler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Change in Colt AR-15 Carbine Policy!
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:27 GMT
Organization: Univel

In article <9301251946.AA03337@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU>, ccrafton@daewoo.math.indiana.edu (c.crafton) writes:
|> 
|> I just ordered a Colt CAR AR-15 A2 in .223.
|> Colt has changed their policy requiring a Police letterhead for purchase.
|> Now "legitimate stocking law-enforcement dealers" can buy 1 CAR in .223 and 1
|> 9mm CAR for a one-time deal only. Thedealer price is $699 and $659 respectively.
|> For any dealers out there who qualify, I would jump and jump quickly.

No I wouldn't.  I think Quality Parts/Bushmaster Firearms is much more flexible
toward customers in term of rifle configurations and they make better rifles than
Colt too.  Beside, they sell to everyone not just law-enforcement folks.

I would pick QP/Eagle/Olympic over Colt any day.

-tt
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self defense hypothetical
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:32 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

In <lairdb.727989452@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:

#In <9301221617.AA24455@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:


#I would have to guess that the originator might mean a situation where
#perhaps the act *was* self defense, but the being-armed was unlawful.
#Suppose Our Protagonist is in D.C., and has chosen with full knowlege
#of the law to own and carry a firearm (both unlawful in D.C.)  He is
#attacked by a PCP crazed, strung-out, 6 foot 8 bodybuilder wielding
#a blood spattered machete screaming "You're next!  Ah ha ha ha ha!" 
#(let there be no ambiguity in our example.)  Our Protagonist draws,
#says appropriate things, and finally fires.  It takes two A-zone hits
#to stop the assailant.  It's dark, no one is about (except Our
#Protagonist and Mr. Leaking-on-the-ground.)  Now what?

Stay put, "Flight equals guilt", immediately call for help (ambulance
and police)  "doing nothing equals guilt", do not tamper with evidence,
"lying equals guilt", and don't be an ass "macho posturing equals guilt".

While the above in quotes is not true, it is how things will be
viewed by the police, the media, citizens, and a jury.
Massad Ayoob has an article on this in a recent G&A special
edition. He reviews 4 cases where in his opinion, an innocent
man has gone to jail.

#(As I wrote this, I got more and more curious about what people's
#opinions are on this and similar: imagine any typical example situation
#in which O.P. fires (returns fire?) such as a mugging, carjacking,
#etc.  Is there a point or situation in which O.P. chooses to collect
#his brass and vanish?)

I would say no, but... depends on how bad the local authorities are.
Things would have to be real bad to warrant this.

Although I have heard that here in the B.C. lower mainland, some cops
illegally carry off duty, and some private investigators carry as well.
And that the plan is to vanish and dump the gun if they need to use it.
This is, of course, rumour, and I have no facts to back this up.

-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (I don't speak for Motorola)
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sacramento Armory price on 7.62X39 ammo
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:24:51 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <1993Jan22.192001.8203@Csli.Stanford.EDU> cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower) writes:
#
#The Sacramento Armory price ($99 per case) for 7.62X39 (East German, 
#non-corrosive) posted to the net was for dealers. The normal price is
#$139 per case.

is this the 1400 case? if so, beware that this is short range ammo, meant
for a max of 100 meters. tracer is also available (at least here) at a 
couple $$$ more. 


cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:18 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:

#In article <1jp7h5INNejd@shelley.u.washington.edu>
#basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
###The best all time movie as far as correct firearms handling is
###"Tremors". If you haven't seen it, check it out; especially the rec
###room scene.
##
##Agreed; good movie, too. The only problem I saw was that when he shot
##those _huge_ "elephant" loads, there was virtually no kick from the rifle.

#Are you sure?  I think I remember him firing and being REALLY pushed back,
#as if Andre the Giant had punched him in the shoulder.

#Of course, maybe I should watch the copy that Gillian gave me for christmas
#again, to make sure I know what I'm talking about... :)

#GREAT movie.  What kind of gun/ammunition was he using anyway?

You may be right.  I might be thinking of another movie.  I guess it's
a good excuse to see it again. I'll pay more attention to the armaments
this time (I wasn't a gun owner last time I saw it).

David Basiji
UW Bioengineering
From: se_lipta@rcvie.co.at (Jaroslav Liptak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Air gun postal matches
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:29 GMT


Trent,

I have tried to reach you several times on the e-mail addresses you give
at the end of your posting re:air gun postal matches. No success, and
no reply from the postmaster; only bounces. The original message was:

Are you in frequent contact with Don? If you meet him, please tell him
that I've received his letter, working on it and I'll be in touch soon;
at least with the application for regular membership in the ISCA. Currently
I'm overloaded with work, it can last several weeks.

Is Anschutz your favorite air gun brand? I personally have tried both
2001 and FWB 601, and give better values to the FWB. Just an opinion.

Can you briefly describe the conduct of the mentioned postal matches?
Postal matches are very rare here in good old Europe, so I need some
shared experience... Where do the participants come from? Any limitations?

If you have a working e-mail address, please let me know.


Have a nice day,


Jaro (an Austrian resident Slovak rifle shooter/coach )


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaroslav Liptak, Software Eng. Group            Phone  +431 39 16 21 262
Alcatel Austria Informatics               0"0   Fax    +431 39 14 52
Research and Development                 ( V )  Telex  113297 rcvie a
Ruthnergasse 1-7, A-1210 Wien, Austria    | |   e-mail se_lipta@rcvie.co.at
------------------------------------------m-m------------------------------
From: calspan!schabel@uu.psi.com (Dave Schabel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Comment on GRENDEL P-12 s
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:37 GMT
Organization: Calspan Advanced Technology Center

In article <1j85e1INNp5d@tamsun.tamu.edu> sharring@cs.tamu.edu (Steven L Harrington) writes:
#In article <3200.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing) writes:
##
##CL>es anyone have experience or knowledge of The .380 backup gun
##CL>Grendel P-12 which appeared on page 61 of last months edition of
##CL>American Rifleman?

[snip]

#
#As for the P-12, my brother had a problem with his jamming and sent
#it back to Grendel who promptly repaired it and it has functioned
#flawlessly since. I presonally prefer my P-10 to his P-12, since the
#grip is narrower since it doesn't have the detachable clip.

I had a very similar experience with my P-10 when it was new:
Jam-o-matic, a quick (well, not so quick) trip to the factory,
and now it works quite well.

#
#Well, funny how differently two people can review the same gun isn't it?
#As for the AMT backup, I've heard it jammed frequently - but they've
#redesigned it in DAO and I have no first hand experience w/ either
#version.

I've heard the same about the AMT's.

				Dave Schabel



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Schabel         | Opinions and comments contained herein are mine and  |
schabel@calspan.com  | do not necessarilly reflect those of Calspan Corp or |
                     | its customers.                                       |
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Effectiveness of pepper gas
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:32 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <C1HMLF.78B@wsrcc.com>, wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht) writes:
# #I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the fairly new
# #irritant gasses containing Oleoresin Capsicum.
# 
# I'm was told by a lady displaying the 10% and 15% variety at a recent
# show that Oleoresin Capsicum is only approved for use against animals
# in California.  She paused, and then added, "The 15% is good for
# animals up to 250lbs."
# 
On 21/1/92, Glendale, Arizona, police officers shot and killed
Beverly Patrick after spraying here with Capstun.  911 received 
a call from a teenage boy that someone had broken into the
house: the boy had locked himself upstairs.  When police arrived,
they encounterd Ms. Patrick holding a large knife.  When the 
police ordered her to drop the weapon, she responded by charging.
The police sprayed her with Capstun (I think that's OC) but
she kept coming so they had to shoot her several times.

Editorial: in another few seconds, the OC would probably
have had some effect, but the cops would have been severely
injured and maybe even dead by that time.  If you want to
use OC, use it like the pro's do... as an alternative 
to lethal force if it's use is both possible and 
effective.



-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: media!jim@uunet.UU.NET (Jim Gittelson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dillon vs. Lee Summary
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:05 GMT
Organization: Media Cybernetics, Inc.


Okay, before we get to the results, first things first.

Thank you to all who replied.

My appologies to RCBS, and others for not directly naming them in the
original post.

I did not mean to post the mid-term results, but my system got confused and
posted the letter as an article which was a direct response to a person.

As I expected, most people were very opinionated about their equipment,
claiming that either Dillon, or Lee made poor equipment, depending
upon their point of view.  Though no one seemed to trash RCBS.


Dillon:
	18 Replies.  One with familly members using four Dillons.  Another
			using seven.  So that is 27 total?  And another who
			is switching from Lee to Dillon.
		A lot of comments stating very good service from Dillon.
		These days, that makes or breaks a company.

Lee:
	10 Replies, stating they used Lee.

RCBS:
	5 Replies.

Hornady:
	1 Reply.

Bonanza:
	1 Reply.

[MODERATOR:  Thanks for the post, Jim!]
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:26 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1jvfe3INNt74@digex.digex.com> curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) writes:
}#>Is Black Talon the best stopper out
}
}CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon
}CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon
}
}'Nough said?

Not quite.  Black Talon is too new to have developed much of a street
history, but anecdotes are beginning to make the rounds.  If those I've
heard are even half true, BT should eventually prove itself a very
effective stopper.

Now, if they'd just find another name for it ...

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain