HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
From: mastr@husc10.harvard.edu (claudia mastroianni)
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:47:38 EST
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1id0jhINNbqs@gap.caltech.edu> laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence) writes:
>jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>
>>In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>>>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>>>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
[deletion]
>>>Please don't demean him, his tales, the other
>>>readers, or yourself with this insidious attack on a morally uplifting
>>>chronicle.
>
>>	This was a work of fan-fiction based on a character created by 
>>Tolkien and it is certainly appropriate in a Tolkien fan newsgroup--  at
>>least until such a time as we create a seperate alt.tolkien.fanfic.
[equal opportunity deletion]
>>Please don't demean _us_ by setting
>>yourself up as the Tribunal of Newsgroup Purity and declaring that certain
>>types of postings do not belong here simply because you don't like them.
>
>>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
>
>Sorry, Jim; I entirely agree with him, except more strongly.  That story was
>no more appropriate here than anti-semetic rhetoric would be in a newsgroup
>devoted to (and pro-) Judaism or a burning cross would be on public property.
>People do have rights, as you note, but one of them is the right to exclude
>offensive material.  The KKK may have the right to march and demonstrate, but
>they don't have the right to surround someone else's home in doing so, or
>harass people who do not wish to be harassed.
>
>-- 
>Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
>                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
>laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
>caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry

Nice .sig.  Uh, sorry, Dustin, but I agree with Jim!  That wasn't
an anti-Tolkien post (necessarily -- I grant it depends on the
poster's motives).  I understand that some Tolkien fans (OK, maybe
*most* Tolkien fans) reading this group might not like it.  I think
the warning message should have been much more clear, something like

"BTW, the following would easily fit on alt.sex.bestiality!" 

rather than a Monty Python spoof-line that wouldn't discourage any 
Tolkien fan *I* know from continuing to read the post.  But to say
a Tolkien fanfic (which I'm sure it is -- the mind that came up with
that story had to belong to someone who's read FotR more that once,
dontcha think?) doesn't belong in alt.fan.tolkien just makes no sense
at all.  I wouldn't like to see such stories become major traffic
here either, but I don't think you ought to attempt to exclude them.

Claudia

P.S.  Yes *of course* you have the right to *say* you don't want
it here.  Likewise, others have the right to disagree.
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: A question
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:27:03 GMT
Distribution: world

In <1993Jan5.130810.27764@odin.diku.dk> Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote:
> Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
> in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?

This one's easy.  There are indications in the mythos that the Ring is, if not
self-aware, at least capable in a limited way of acting to spread evil and
return to its master.  The Ring was broadcasting "Hey! *Attack* this geek!"
as loud as it could, and the Watcher & orc picked up on that, without knowing
exactly why.

Or so I'd always assumed...
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry J. Gardner)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
	<1993Jan4.015214.18526@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<MVOORHIS.93Jan4192634@granite.WPI.EDU>
	<1993Jan05.131626.6278@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Organization: Home Depot USA, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:25:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan05.131626.6278@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:


   >` [...] And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath
   >not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.
   >For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising
   >of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
   >
   >This is my basis for belief that illuvatar has precognition of all events
   >in Ea; although it may seem a tenuous basis.

   This is in opposition to Gandalf's statements when he responded to Bilbo's or
   Frodo's observation about his chances of finding the One Ring. Gandalf responded
   with a phrase like "if by chance you call it". I interpret Gandalf's statement 
   to mean that Eru arranged for Bilbo to find the ring, but what was done with the
   ring thereafter was done by the free wills of those in the story.

   Look back to see how each of the good guys had a chance to take the ring: 
   Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Boromir, Faramir, etc. Each was presented
   by Eru with a chance (a test perhaps), but their own freewill governed their 
   decision.

   Feadin

I don't think that Eru would have interfered this much in affairs of
middle-earth, even to test these peoples. I take Gandalf's statement
to mean that forces were at work other than the Ring-bearer and the 
Lord of the Rings, seemingly the Valar, not Eru.

--
terry@HomeDepot.COM                      (404) 433-8211x5124 or (404) 941-8304
Home Depot, USA Corporate Office, Atlanta, GA
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 6 Jan 1993 12:54:39 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
[
This was a work of fan-fiction based on a character created by 
Tolkien and it is certainly appropriate in a Tolkien fan newsgroup--  at
least until such a time as we create a seperate alt.tolkien.fanfic.  Just
because you found the story not to your taste does not give you the right
to say that it is not appropriate here.  The story was not to my taste
either, I'm certainly not trying to pretend it's not an appropriate posting
for a group devoted to Tolkien fandom.  Please don't demean _us_ by setting
yourself up as the Tribunal of Newsgroup Purity and declaring that certain
types of postings do not belong here simply because you don't like them.
]

By your very same argument, do we not have the right to express an opinion
as to what does or does not belong here?  IMHO, this kind of garbage is
clearly way outside of the type of discussion obviously preferred here
(as demonstrated by the vast majority of the postings), and would better
be inflicted upon alt.sex.tasteless.

Nobody can "legislate" what will be posted on an unmoderated newsgroup,
but we can speak our minds as to what is welcome and what is not.  Social
pressure is the only tool netters have to define a newsgroup's content.



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 16:59:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.155624.3450@mcs.kent.edu>, mcconnel@mcs (Mike McConnell)
writes:

>In article <1993Jan4.015238.18695@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com
>(Rich Alderson) writes:

>>In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, mozart@coos (Sting)
>>writes:

>>>I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which
>>>occurs in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other
>>>authors), the words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which
>>>would suggest that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.

>>No more that the fact that "corn" and "horn" rhyme, and horns grow near the
                              ^^^^       ^^^^
>>ears, and the units of growth of corn are called "ears."  Tolkien was a much
>>better linguist, both more clear and more subtle than that.

>I suppose this was just an unlucky choice (:-)) but corn and horn are cognate
>words, parts of Grimm's law (I think) shows how the hard 'k' sound became a
>softer 'h' sound in the Germanic languages.  Thus we have the cornucopia is 
>the horn of plenty (corn and copious resp.)  Likewise, in Germanic languages
>we get hundred instead of centum, hound instead of canus, and head instead of
>cap (heafod in Anglo-Saxon for capita).
>
>Now I'll stop being such a pedant.

English 'horn' is indeed cognate with Latin 'cornu,' with the correspondence
noted.  However, the English word 'corn' is not borrowed from Latin 'cornu' but
is rather the expected development in a Germanic language of the same etymon
that yields Latin 'granum.'

It was an intentional choice.  I am an Indo-Europeanist by training, and knew
precisely what I was saying.

But thanks for the opportunity to clear that up!  :-)

Grimm's law is a complete set of correspondences:

	*p  > f		*t  > "th"	*k  > h
	*b  > p		*d  > t		*g  > k
	*bh > b		*dh > d		*gh > g

with apparent exceptions generally covered by Verner's law.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Paivi.Hyvarinen@hut.fi (Paivi Helena Hyvarinen)
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Reply-To: Paivi.Hyvarinen@hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: alt
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:12:53

There also is an impressive (and IMNSHO very beautiful) work of
classical music by the Finnish composer-conductor Ensio Kosta,
called "Music of Middle-earth".  I have an LP, recorded in 1982
in the Finlandia Records Document Series.  The producer was
Foundation for the Promotion of Finnish Music and the rights are
owned by Musiikki Fazer, (P) 1983 (whatever _that_ means...).

The LP contains eight pieces (one of them a "double"), in some of
which Rita Bergman, soprano, "sings in the 'Quenyan language'
where lyrics appear".  The names of the pieces are:

I	Morning in The Shire
II	The Conjuration
III	Tracking the Songs of the Elves
IV	Aragorn and Arwen
V	On Winding Paths
VI-VII	Lothl'orien - Galadriel's Lament
VIII	The Riders of Rohan
IX	The Grey Havens

It is magnificent to listen to, but I have no idea if one could
still get the record or if any CD-version has ever been made.
Needless to say, I treasure my own LP greatly.

Any more Tolkien-inspired music, anyone?

Ronja

(as in Astrid Lindgren's "Ronja R|vardotter" = "Ronia Robber's Daughter")

--
@ Paivi Hyvarinen, CS major      @ Internet:      Paivi.Hyvarinen@hut.fi @
@ Alias: Ronja J. Addams         @ BITNET: Paivi.Hyvarinen%hut.fi@FINHUT @
@ Mail: Jamerantaival 11 F 137   @                                       @
@      SF-02150 Espoo, Finland   @ Phone:       +358-0-455 0894 (GMT+2h) @
From: wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Music based on the ring
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:54:17 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Helsinki

There is also a CD containing music from (or for) a Finnish
dramatization of LOTR for theatre.  In Finnish, of course.  I quite
liked it.  (Sorry, don't have more detailed references.)  I never did
see the piece myself, although most people seem to have liked it,
except for its length: some six hours or so.  It was played on two
summers in the 18th centrury fortress island outside of Helsinki,
Suomenlinna or Sveaborg.  I wish I had seen it, the first summer I
didn't know of it, the second I spent in the army, and all the other
summers I have been kicking myself whenever I remember it.

--
Lars.Wirzenius@helsinki.fi  (finger wirzeniu@klaava.helsinki.fi)
   MS-DOS, you can't live with it, you can live without it.
Lines: 4
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:02:57 MST
From: ashworth@zuni.math.byu.edu (ashworth nathan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Fandom

 Does anybody know of any work that has all the depth and reality that 
Tolkiens work does ?

Nathan
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu (charles tatum)
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Reply-To: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:34:00 GMT

In article 1id73rINNrrm@uwm.edu, paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
>In article <1i7ekbINNddf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>>
>>In TLOTR there are three Maiar that "die".  Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.
>>In the first two cases there is a cloud that appears and then disperses.
>>When Saruman is killed on the doorstep of Bag End the cloud "looks" to the
>>west and is dispersed by a suddenly appearing wind.
>
>Gandalf also dies in LotR.  Tally up four dead Maia in LotR.  :-)
>
>----
>Paul Gunderson
>paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


  I believe that "killed" and "dies" and "dead" must refer to physical
forms (chosen by the spirit) and not to spiritual deaths. Proof: Gandalf
returns in a new physical shape. Furthermore, the "deaths" of the Balrog,
Saruman, and Sauron may be explained in the refusal of Valinor, and hence
the powers of the world, to grant the spirits to take new shape, and furthermore,
to renew their power. So they remained a Void, powerless spirit; would you
stick around?

---
Charles Tatum, Jr.
----
+--------------+----------------------------------------+
|  The Wizard  |  email: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu         |
+-------------------------------------------------------+      
| Charles Tatum, Jr.   | My opinions are my own.
+----------------------+


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 18:25:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.231001.18950@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
>>Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.
>
>True. I think a different kind of garbled filth would be appropriate;
>maybe a story about Gimli boffing Galadriel in the Undying Lands (her
>husband's a world away), or maybe Bilbo doing Frodo. (Hey, we *all*
>knew about that one, right?)


	Bilbo and Frodo?  Maybe.  I think Sam doing Frodo makes a lot more
sense though.  Why do you think he keeps calling him "Master" anyway?  :-)

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
From: microsoc@ox.ac.uk (Andrew D McMurry=)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:51:07 GMT
	<EGDORF.92Dec16162253@zaphod.lanl.gov> <1h4l2cINN9ni@mirror.digex.com>
	<suwandi.724959756@sfu.ca>,<lewchuk.725051453@therien>
	<BzqAp4.L6I@umassd.edu>,<1993Jan4.015131.18272@leland.Stanford.EDU
Organization: /u3/microsoc/users/amcm/.organization
In-reply-to: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU's message of 6 Jan 93 19:44:19 GMT

In article <C0G6tw.5Gu@umassd.edu> sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell) writes:
   ...

   Ah, Rich I'm afraid you're wrong. Ur is the Sun,  from The Book of Lost
   Tales I. Also The secret fire is the Holy Spirit, I'll quote from LT
   book I again : Iluvatar said to the Ainur: 
   ...

The old names for Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul were Minas Anor and Minas
Ithil, the towers of the sun and the moon. Just because Ur meant the Sun in
Book of Lost Tales does not mean that Anor does not mean Sun.
	a)	Alot of names in TBoLT are different from the names used in
		LoTR and the Silmarillion.
	b)	There is more than one language in Middle Earth. Peoples and
		things names are different in Quenya, Sindarin, Khuzdul,
		Black Speech, Adunaic etc.

	Andrew
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil
Date: 7 Jan 1993 00:07:43 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:

>	One thing that bothered me about the creation power of Darkness:
>it is almost explicitly said that orcs are twisted elves, and therefore can 
>breed, inheriting that ability from the Firstborn.  But what about trolls
>and dragons?  If Melkor lacked access to the Secret Fire they should not
>have been able to breed, only to be created individually by Melkor with his
>own essence.  But dragons most definitely did breed!

There's a comment in TLOTR which says (essentially) that trolls are to ents
what orcs are to elves. But as for the dragons, I'm as confused as you are.

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:51:16
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1993Jan11.214937.2559@kronos.arc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:49:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.214937.2559@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Thompson) writes:
> Yes, but Gandalf's partially tired from the battle of door-spells with the
> balrog [etc..]

interesting, it never really occurred to me that the balrog might have been
on the other side of the door.  I simply thought that it was something else
other than the balrog, but un-named.

	Hmmmmmm...

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:42:37 GMT

In article <lewchuk.725225719@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>>FWIW, the only female dwarf explicitly mentioned is Dis, sister of
>>Thorin and mother to Fili and Kili.  She's mentioned somewhere in the
>>appendices.  Unfortunately, it gives no description of her, so we are 
>>left with the mystery of whether female dwarves have beards...
>
>I believe in "The Hobbit" or "LOTR" or the appendices to LOTR it is
>specifically said that female dwarves don't do much and are hard to tell
>from male dwarves because they are exactly alike in appearance, including
>beards, and dress so as to not show their figure.
>
>>(Speaking of which, ever notice the strange colors of the dwarves'
>>beards in the Hobbit?  Everything from blue to red to green, etc.
>>Any thoughts on this?  Or is this a remnant of the more childish
>>portions of the Hobbit?)
>
>Beards?  Nonono, perhaps hoods and cloaks.  Thorin had sky-blue hoods
>(combination hood/cloak, I believe), one of which he gave to Bilbo.
				      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thorin had a sky blue hood with a silver tassel (he was a very important
dwarf).  Bilbo wore a spare dark green hood of Balin's.

>					Michael Lewchuk
>					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dguichar@cipres.cec.uchile.cl (David.)
Subject: Do you have an answer?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:51:46 GMT
Organization: Centro de Computacion (CEC), Universidad de Chile
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

I've been wondering for a long time how order the races ennounced by Tolkien
by their height...
I guess the tallest are the ents and the smallest are the hobbits
May someone post a complete list?

--

    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |                                               _____               |
    |           /|                                  \    \              |
    |          / |    _                              \    \             |
    |    \    /  |   / \   _                          \    \___         |
    |     \  /   |  |     / \                          \       \        |
    |      \/    |  |    |___|                          \___    \       |
    |      /\    |  |    |      "Nada es como lo vemos"     \    \__    | 
    |     /  \   |  |    |                                   \__    \   |
    |    /    \  |  |     \_/                                   \__  \  |
    |   /      \ |   \_/                                           \ |  |
    |  /        \|                                                  \|  |
    |                                                                   | 
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: RE: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:44:20 GMT

Paul Gunderson writes,

>Just a simple thought on this.  Since Tolkien's early maps show the world as
>a hemisphere (more or less), perhaps the Ainur were seeing it from only one
>side?  Face on, so to speak?  :-)

I don't think so, the Silmarillion states the vision showed a sphere
(if the choise of words isn't correct, this is because I only read the
Dutch version of the Silmarillion). I talked about this with a friend,
and he couldn't think of an explanation on this problem (inconcistancy?) too !

Can anybody shine his light on this?

______________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: sproule@gethsemane.EBay.Sun.COM (Dan Sproule)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:56:11 GMT
Reply-To: sproule@gethsemane.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: gethsemane.ebay.sun.com


>	This was a work of fan-fiction based on a character created by 
>Tolkien and it is certainly appropriate in a Tolkien fan newsgroup--  at
>least until such a time as we create a seperate alt.tolkien.fanfic.  Just
>because you found the story not to your taste does not give you the right
>to say that it is not appropriate here.  The story was not to my taste
>either, I'm certainly not trying to pretend it's not an appropriate posting
>for a group devoted to Tolkien fandom.  Please don't demean _us_ by setting
>yourself up as the Tribunal of Newsgroup Purity and declaring that certain
>types of postings do not belong here simply because you don't like them.
>
>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>


   Okay, call me the Tribunal of Purity on this newsgroup because I
   too don't believe that that trash belongs on this alias. It's pru-
   rient nature belongs on a sleezy newsgroup. And please, don't demean
   the good readers on this newsgroup with trash like "The Mushroom Thief."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien