From: itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken)
Subject: Re: Silver Spring monkeys
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:40:46 GMT

In article <C05A0w.3vB@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>
>In article <C03yJ5.KqJ@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>rl> Does Greg Popken view the misuse of animals as the lesser of the evils?
>rl> Or, does he simply dismiss the misuse of animals altogether?   What
>rl> exactly are the "needs" that motivate his use of mice?
>
>From article <1992Dec31.174728.12414@samba.oit.unc.edu>, by itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken):
>gp> You have the most incredible ability to answer (or not answer) 
>gp> questions with questions. Have you ever read Guildenstern and 
>gp> Rosencranzs Are Dead?
>
>In order to analyze a problem critically, I need to understand the
>underlying assumptions.   In a previous posting, you stated that
>it's wrong to torture a human, not because torture is thoroughly
>unpleasant, but because humans have rights.

You then misunderstand my meaning.  I will be happy to discuss the issue
as soon as you provide the "alleged" cat shooting experiment ref.( as per
our deal)

>
>gp> What do you mean by misuse of animals?  You can't be refering to 
>gp> "lawful" research.  Which is what I am involved in.
>gp>
>gp> In the case of valid, accredited research I view the *use* of 
>gp> animals as a necessity.  I make every attempt to minimize the 
>gp> number of animals used and the amount of "suffering" they 
>gp> experience.  In this sense you can can say that I believe the use 
>gp> animals is the lesser of the "evils".  I don't enjoy the use of 
>gp> animals.  I derive no perverse pleasure from it.  (I don't like to 
>gp> go to the denist either.  But I do.) 
>gp>
>gp> The *misuse* of animals I do not condone or tolerate.
>
>You say that your research is a "necessity", but how do you 
>define the term?  As an example, would you say that affluent 
>women "need" to wear fur coats?  Or that human beings "need" to 
>consume cows and chickens?  Or that hunters "need" to shoot ducks 
>and deer for sport?  

I did not say my research is a necessity (I said the use of animals in my
research is a necessity).  Good god Russell, its right there in front of you
how can you misread it.
If you want me to say if my research is a necessity, ask me.  
What I did say was that the alleviation of human suffering is a ethical
responsibility.  Animal research is a necessity in fulfilling that
responsibility.
Fur coats, carnivorous behavior and hunting have nothing to do with the
topic of biomedical research!  Which evasive tactic is this. (there so
many I've lost track.)

>
>gp> RE: "needs" that motivate my use of mice.  Since the begining of 
>gp> time (no I don't have a ref.) health problems have plaqued (no 
>gp> pun intented) man.  I feel that preventing the suffering of 
>gp> Humans is one of the highest ethical responsibilities of all 
>gp> persons.  In addition, I have an ability, a knack, a disposition 
>gp> (whatever you wish to call it) for scientific investigation of 
>gp> biological phenomena.  My motivation for doing scientific 
>gp> research is a combination of those two ideas.  My motivation for 
>gp> using mice is simply that it is the most reliable model, I can 
>gp> find, that will alow me to complete the task at hand.  
>
>Vis-a-vis the history of human suffering, how do you think health
>problems would be ranked versus the problems caused by human 
>selfishness and greed?
>
What does this have to do with the price of Klondike Bars in Quebec?


>Incidently, one of the "Putting People First" folks posted an article
>that cited health problems as a reasonable excuse for animal research,
>but when I asked him if he was in favor of political reforms that
>would improve the quality and availability of health care for his fellow 
>citizens, he sent me an email reply in which he ranted on and on
>about his unwillingness to support "freeloaders".  Is there a connection
>between his callous views about humans and his views about non-humans?

I have no idea.  Why don't you ask him?
You, of all people, asking me to explain the motivations of someone else.
If I or Martin were to "volunteer" this kind of opinion, you'ld be on us
like itch on poison ivy.(And you have been)
You never cease to amaze me.

                                   Greg Popken

>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
>russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ


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