HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dst+@cs.cmu.edu (Dave Touretzky)
Subject: why not use chains?
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 02:56:19 GMT


When I took my Cheetah off leaseback in 1987, one of the first things I
decided was that I was not going to waste time fumbling with the cheesy
tiedown ropes my FBO had been using.  I went to the local hardware store and
bought three 8 foot lengths of heavy, rust-resistant chain and six
double-ended leash clips.  Three of these clips are used to fasten the
chains to metal anchors embedded in the ground.  The other three fasten the
other end of the chains after they've been pulled through the airplane's
tiedown rings.

Instead of fumbling with frozen tiedown ropes, knots that slip, etc., it
took me just seconds to detach or reattach the chains.  Adjusting the
tension was trivial: just move the leash clip.  It worked great.  I can only
think of two minor drawbacks:  (1) If you yank the chain through the tiedown
rings, it can slap against the airframe and maybe knock a bit of paint off.
Just pull gently.  (2) I was afraid somebody might steal my nice shiny
chains.  No one ever did, and they wouldn't be expensive to replace anyway.

So why does anybody still use tiedown ropes?

-- Dave Touretzky,  CFI-AIM,  Seneca N8147E (``The Beast'')
From: jeg@Apple.COM (Julian Gomez)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Arrow for sale
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:27:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA


Was there someone here who was looking for an Arrow? There's a Turbo
Arrow IV for sale at Palo Alto. N47629. Call Bill at 415/588-7759.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: philf@xymox.palo-alto.ca.us (Phil Fernandez)
Subject: Re: why not use chains?
Organization: Jade and Jett Incorporated
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 04:34:58 GMT

In article <petersk.725816872@walnut16> Keith R. Peterson writes:
>... I WOULD consider a chain for
>a backup if I was expecting a really big blow.

Implicit in this discussion is the assumption that chains are in fact
stronger and more reliable than ropes under extreme tensile stress.
I'm not sure that this is true.

A typical aviation tie-down chain consists of a bunch of discrete
units, one of which is the "weak link". (Yow, I've never used this
term except as a metaphor before!)  The chain is no stronger than this
weak link.

Even if the quality of all links and fittings of a chain are high,
it's not clear that a high-quality, 1/4", well-maintained polymer rope
would give first in a really big blow, given that the rope was tied in
appropriate knots.

This is all based on intuition (plus a discussion with my S.O., who is
a materials scientist with a focus on strength of materials), so I
don't claim to be right.  Does anyone have any real, quantitative
data?

pmf
pp-asmel-ia
mooney n5632j
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 17:43:39 GMT

In article <gfBnO6O00WB5QN0ntY@andrew.cmu.edu> Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.aviation.owning: 21-Dec-92 What to look for in
>a C172 by "Brian Carr @OFFICE.WANG 
>>    I was looking at a 172 for sale the other day and realized I don't
>> have a clue what to look at in regards to buying aircraft. This is a 25
>> year old 172 with 2600 hour airframe, 120 hours on a Mattituck top end.
>
>Brian:
>First off to find a 25 year old airframe with that low a total time is
>rather special...thats just 100+hours/year.  

This is not necessarily good. Disuse causes many problems, especially with
engines. Lycoming recommends that aircraft with their engines be flown at
least 15 hours per month.

>Basically 2 things.  Pay someone to "look" at the plane as if they were
>doing an annual....engine and airframe...its bucks...but usually wort
>it...especially on a 25 year old plane.

And - your mechanic should be someone who has no interest in the sale.
Also talk with the A&P who's been maintaining the aircraft. You may
need to take what he says with the entire salt shaker, but many will
tell you everything they know about the aircraft.

>Pay special attention to nose strut.  Shimmy shows  up most often on
>landing more so than takeoff.

If you can, fly it with an odd number of people on board. Shimmy shows
up more readily if the aircraft is out of balance. If you have a case
of shimmy and your A&P doesn't see anything wrong with the front end,
it's probably the shimmy damper and these can be rebuilt cheaply.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | The reason that cliches become cliches is that
George Patterson -  | they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the
                    | toolbox of communication.
                    |                        Terry Pratchett
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: fraser@mdd.comm.mot.com (Cameron Fraser)
Subject: 0-320 conversion experience?
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:13:56 GMT

i have a pa-28-151 with the 150hp O-320 not far from overhaul - a local
overhaul shop suggests that at overhaul time it would be minor to change
it to 160hp. Has anyone had any experience following this route or along
a similiar line is anyone aware of an stc for putting in a 180hp engine?

thanks

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cameron Fraser          fraser@mdd.comm.mot.com
Mobile Data Division    (604) 241-6092        (604) 241-6030 FAX
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA  (800)-999-8279 CDN    (800) 678-7634 USA
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 09:18:19 -0500 
From: Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
	<1992Dec22.170841.24570@nlm.nih.gov>

>I submit that nosewheel shimmy is so endemic (and so
>easy to temporarily fix)

Agreed if the problem is the shimmy damper or nuts/bolts that need
tightening, as is the case 9/10 times...We just spent a ton of money to
replace most of the strut hardware after10 rounds of tightnening, shimmy
damper replacement....and tire balancing...didn't fix a bad shimmy.  It
isn't "always" simple...and...be nice to know if plane your buying has
the problem.

> and leaking windshields are both common and
>instantly remedied by a $2 tube of silicon sealer 

Wish that were the case....I've seen wing, windshield, fuselage
transition area leak...not into the cabin...but track down to the
interior of the belly...puddleling inside there because a lazy owner
doesn't unplug drain holes frequently enough....and mess up a belly
transponder antenna.  Silicone alone...didn't fix this problem.  Again
not frequent...but happens.

>  As an owner selling a plane, I would not be pleased to
>have some joker up on a ladder with a bucket, aiming at my windshield.

Guess you and I won't be doing business soon.  



Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 17:28:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.064237.28144@qiclab.scn.rain.com> al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman) writes:
>In article <199212211744.AA24598@tuna.wang.com> BRIAN.M.CARR@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Brian Carr    (HARPS)") writes:
>>   I was looking at a 172 for sale the other day and realized I don't
>>have a clue what to look at in regards to buying aircraft. This is a 25
>>year old 172 with 2600 hour airframe, 120 hours on a Mattituck top end.
>>Full IFR: King KX-155, KX-145, Glidescope, Mode C, Apollo Loran 604.
>> They
>>claim no damage history but I have heard the tail was reworked due to storm
>>damage several years ago. Last painted in 1985 and looks to be standing up
>>well. They are looking for either half partner of full sale.
>>
>>    What is the net wisdom for a ballpark price and what do you look at
>>when evaluating a Cessna.
>
>First thing you look at is the logbooks.  If they are not available or 
>complete don't walk away - RUN.  The airframe book should show any repairs,
>painting, compliance with AD's, and other repairs.  Engine book likewise.

Also put your track shoes on if the mechanic who you hire for the pre-purchase
inspection verifies that the tail was reworked and you find there's no entry
in the logbook for the repair. If there's no entry for something like this,
God only knows what else is missing.

>As to price, I'm hopelessly lost in the past.  I bought a 76 172 with
>1200 hours TT, IFR package for $14,000...but that was 1985, and this
>is 1992...Look in Trade-A-Plane to get some idea of the asking price
>for similar planes, and then deduct 10% for dickering..

A 172 in similar condition but with only basic original electronics sold
here recently for $22,000.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | The reason that cliches become cliches is that
George Patterson -  | they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the
                    | toolbox of communication.
                    |                        Terry Pratchett
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
Date: 22 Dec 92 06:42:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Dec22.064237.28144
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <199212211744.AA24598@tuna.wang.com> BRIAN.M.CARR@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Brian Carr    (HARPS)") writes:
>   I was looking at a 172 for sale the other day and realized I don't
>have a clue what to look at in regards to buying aircraft. This is a 25
>year old 172 with 2600 hour airframe, 120 hours on a Mattituck top end.
>Full IFR: King KX-155, KX-145, Glidescope, Mode C, Apollo Loran 604.

KX-145 is an old dog of a radio...perhaps the worst King navcom..but
that's just a little detail.  Now IF I get you right the plane has
2600 TT and is a 1967 model...which I think means the Continental
O-300 engine which is smooth, but a bit weak.  If the engine has
not been overhauled, just topped 120 hours ago it is close to
worn out - if it had a Mattituck overhaul 125 hours ago it is close
to new...a BIG difference.

> They
>claim no damage history but I have heard the tail was reworked due to storm
>damage several years ago. Last painted in 1985 and looks to be standing up
>well. They are looking for either half partner of full sale.
>
>    What is the net wisdom for a ballpark price and what do you look at
>when evaluating a Cessna.

First thing you look at is the logbooks.  If they are not available or 
complete don't walk away - RUN.  The airframe book should show any repairs,
painting, compliance with AD's, and other repairs.  Engine book likewise.
Prop book is pretty simple on a fixed pitch prop.

As to price, I'm hopelessly lost in the past.  I bought a 76 172 with
1200 hours TT, IFR package for $14,000...but that was 1985, and this
is 1992...Look in Trade-A-Plane to get some idea of the asking price
for similar planes, and then deduct 10% for dickering..

-- 
Alan L. Peterman                                 (503)-684-1984 hm & work
                       al@qiclab.scn.rain.com
It's odd how as I get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: bart@asiago.cs.wisc.edu (Bart Miller)
Subject: Hangering questions
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 16:02:01 GMT

We are about to move our TR182 into a hanger (a REAL benefit in the upper
midwest).

Two questions:

1.  Push backs:  I want to get some sort of winch to push the plane back into
    the hanger.  This is needed, especially in winter months were there can
    be ice on the ground.

    What have people found most effective?  One choice is an electric winch
    fastened to the rear of the hanger.  Where to hook the cable.  I've heard
    three ideas:  1) nose gear, 2) both mains, or 3) tail tiedown.  I don't
    like #3.  The TR182 is a skinny-legged Cessna retract, so I won't want
    to tugged it in wrong places.

2.  Heat:  This should probably be listed as a FAQ.  Anyone care to summarize
    benefits of a Tanis-like heater with a lightbulb under the cowl?  (how
    many watt bulb do you need?  Temps get down to 0F here...occassionally
    lower)

Thanks!
						--bart miller
						  uw-madison cs dept
						  bart@cs.wisc.edu
						  1979 TR182 N738CU
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: acampane@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Angelo Campanella)
Subject: Re: Is Hangering Cost Effective
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:44:55 GMT




I think the US taxpayers put up the other 100-200/month to subsidize the Navy 
hangar.
From: stephens@access.digex.com (John Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Temperatures after overhaul
Date: 3 Jan 1993 14:33:20 GMT
Organization: Severn Companies, Inc., Lanham, MD 20706
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <greg.726010499@saltydog> greg@saltydog.dpsi.com
(Gregory R.
Travis) writes:

[ deleted EGT temperatures ]
  > 
  > If so, what you're seeing is perfectly normal for a carbureted
engine.
  > Mixture distribution is very uneven in a carbureted engine
  > and will be affected by things like:
 >
[ additional explanation deleted ]

  > Sometimes partial carb heat can help promote good mixture
distribution.
  > 
    [ more good stuff deleted -- my newsposter won't accept more
           quoted lines than new lines of text ]

I remenber many years ago, when automobile engines were simple and
not complicated with polution controls (air pumps, auto-retard
mechanisms, etc) mixture distribution problems could be often
relieved by inserting a piece of window screen, sandwiched between
the carburetor and the intake manifold. You could even buy a
pre-made insert, complete with new gaskets.  It was also not too
hard to roll your own, the only trick being to maintain a good
seal
between the carb and the manifold.

The purpose of the screening was to promote a little turbulence,
which had two advantages; it improved the vaporization of the
fuel, and the added turbulence in the manifold tended to even out
the distribution of the fuel/air misture to the cylinders.  The
result for the car was lower risk of pinging under load, as the
mixture could be adjusted better, and the timing did not have to
be retarded as much -- giving more power.

mixture could be adjusted better, and the timing did not have to
be retarded as much -- giving more power.

Would such a "kludge" not work for carburetted aircraft engines?
Has it ever been tried? What FCO/STC or other "paperwork" would be
involved?

 Comments?  [Fire away -- gentle roasting tolerated; outright
            incerneration discouraged   :-)  ]

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: paulf@ci.deere.com (Paul A. Fisher)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Is Hangering Cost Effective
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:20:51 GMT
Distribution: usa

greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis) writes:
>Gee, my fully-enclosed hangar (with electric door and lights, no less!) only
>costs me $50.00 a month.
Mine is $45.00 a month.  Actually it is $90.00 a month, but I share the hangar
with a Long-EZ.

>Ahh, the great plains...
Don't ya' LOVE IT!

>greg, having some fun rubbin' it in...
Me too!

--
Paul A. Fisher                       paulf@ci.deere.com
Network Software, W3LSW              ...uunet!deere!paulf
John Deere Road                      (309) 765-4547
Moline, Illinois 61265
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 17:08:41 GMT

In article <gfBnO6O00WB5QN0ntY@andrew.cmu.edu> Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
...stuff to inspect on a C172 prior to purchase, including important
things like evidence of corrosion, stuff with structural implications like
motor mount cracks, and...

>Pay special attention to nose strut.  Shimmy shows  up most often on
>landing more so than takeoff.
>
>Pour a bucket of water over the upper edge of the wind shield....check
>for leaks inside.  Most old ones do leak or have fair amount of
>cracks/crazing.
>
What you have to ask yourself is whether a specific defect would cause
you not to buy the plane, or significantly decrease the offer you are
willing to make.  I submit that nosewheel shimmy is so endemic (and so
easy to temporarily fix) and leaking windshields are both common and
instantly remedied by a $2 tube of silicon sealer that neither bears any
consideration.  As an owner selling a plane, I would not be pleased to
have some joker up on a ladder with a bucket, aiming at my windshield.

The short and simple answer is that if you would not know what you are
looking at if you pulled the bonnet for an engine inspection, and
shined a light back in the tailcone, then buy the services of a mechanic
to do it for you.

It's guaranteed that when you buy your *second* plane, you won't need
rec.aviation to tell you what to look for ;-).

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
From: lee@deneb.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Temperatures after overhaul
Date: 30 Dec 1992 19:06:40 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: deneb.sw.stratus.com

I just got Wiley back after he had his O-470 overhauled down at Penn Yan (boy,
do refurbished engines look nice!).  I have been flying it hard and long, as
recommended by all.  Oil pressure, usage, and temperature are all excellent.
Engine sounds and vibrations are good.

I have an engine monitor that registers 6 EGT's and 2 CHT's.  The latter are
nominal (340 and 360) in cruise, but the EGT's seem odd.  During idle and
runup they are all together and normal, but after climbing to altitude I get

	1470  1550  1380  1525  1330  1250

That is, the spread between #2 and #6 is over 300 degrees, which is twice what
the engine monitor thinks is reasonable, so it lights the red light.  The
temperature for each cylinder is stable during an hour or two of flight.

Also, when I lean the mixture, the temperature come together, that is, cold
cylinders come up a bit and the hot cylinders come down.  It makes it look as
though the hot cylinders are running lean and the cold cylinders are running
rich.

What could cause this?  Is it a normal behavior during breakin for mixtures to
be irregular?  My mechanic says Penn Yan explained a previous problem with
different symptoms by saying that the hydraulic valve lifters take some time
to fill up, so they don't lift evenly for a while.

I've put 10 hours on it so far (8 during two long trips) and the current plan
is to see how it behaves during the next 20 hours.

Thanks for any info.
-- 
Lee W. Cooprider				PP-ASEL/IA
Lee_Cooprider@vos.stratus.com			Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: jbrown@qdeck.com (Jordan Brown)
Subject: Re: What to look for in a C172
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:49:16 GMT

First couple of pieces of advice:

1)  Find a mechanic you trust.  Have him do a thorough prepurchase inspection.
2)  Find an avionics shop you trust.  Have them do a thorough prepurchase
    inspection.
3)  Check out Aviation Consumer's Used Aircraft Guide.  It's "only" about
    $30, which is a tiny price for anything in aviation :-(

(1) is common practice.  (2) is less so, and cost us a bit of unexpected
money when we found that the transponder in our Comanche predated the TSO
and so wasn't satisfactory for the transponder regulations.

Once you've bought the airplane, keep in touch with (1) and (2) above.
You'll need them.  Initially your expenses will probably be high, as you
correct defects previous mechanics didn't notice or didn't care about,
and eventually they should level off.  If our experience is any indicator,
the hourly cost of operating your own airplane will work out to about
60% of the cost of renting a comparable airplane.  (Note:  "hourly cost"
in this calculation does NOT include fixed costs like tiedown, insurance,
base annual, cost of capital, etc.)

I'd never thought of it before, but Al's suggestion of selling off
old-but-working radios and replacing them with new is excellent - when
I've priced used radios I've always decided against them because they
were nearly as much as new.  Duh, that means that maybe I could sell
the old for nearly as much as the new would cost...

Geoff, is there a FAQ page on "so you want to buy an airplane"?
From: SHARP.R@APPLELINK.Apple.com (Randy L. Sharp)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Cessna 421C first annual
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:58:35 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.owning
Organization: Apple Computer, alias 129th RQS USAF

In article <1992Dec8.000820.15717@qualcomm.com>, kleing@qualcomm.com (Klein
Gilhousen) wrote:
> 
> I guess I really lucked out.  I just completed the first annual in 
> my 421C.  The bill was "just" $2800.  After hearing and reading a 
> number of stories of horrific first annuals, especially on big 
> twins, I've had my fingers crossed.  Actually, it was a 100 hour 
> inspection, not an annual, but since they're the same anyway 
> (except for who can sign it off) we did it as an annual.  The only 
> thing found wrong was the left engine needed a new exhaust stack.  
> The old one was burning a hole thru where it takes a 90 degree 
> bend and had been welded up a couple of times before.  Time for a 
> new one (at about $900).  
> 
> Klein Gilhousen, Golden Eagle N421KG
> QUALCOMM Incorporated


You are lucky,  My first annual was about $10K. The aircraft had been
sitting so thats why some of the equipment needed replacement.  Lots of
little stuff; Hoses, seals in the hydraulic systems, Engine Oil leaks,
brakes, co-pilots instruments (Alt leaking), lots of labor time (and I even
pulled the panels and interior). I hope next annual will be better.

Capt RL Sharp ANG/USAF
The ultimate vertical Flight experience.
HH-60G...PaveHawk "The Jolly Green Giants" 
Fly Safe!
AC-500B Twin Commander "N6367U", My Baby C130
C-172N Cessna "N737ZQ", Volks of the airways.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: SHARP.R@APPLELINK.Apple.com (Randy L. Sharp)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: C-172N For Sale
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:48:55 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.owning
Organization: Apple Computer, alias 129th RQS USAF

In article <SHARP.R-101292141404@lasersharp.apple.com>,
SHARP.R@APPLELINK.Apple.com (Randy L. Sharp) I wrote:
> 1978 Cessna 172N;
> 2740 TT
> 40 SMOH Just overhauled from Gills in Reno.
> FULL IFR...
> CESSNA RADIOS
> DUAL NAV/COMMS GS LOC, ARC on one of the CDIs
> ADF
> DME 190
> TRANSPONDER
> MODE "C" "TRANSCAL"
> Paint a "6"
> Interior a "6" 
> Strobes, curtesy lights, articulating seats.
> 
> VERY ECONOMICAL AIRCRAFT, good investment for leaseback.
> Burns about 8 Gals per hour
> 117 kts cruise
> 
> For more info call;
> 408 974-5024 W
> 408 270-3546 H
> or link "SHARP.R@APPLELINK.Apple.com (Randy L. Sharp)"

I forgot the price!
PRICE $35K. Will take offers, this is a reasonable price considering I just
spent $15K on an engine and various new parts.

Capt RL Sharp
The ultimate vertical Flight experience.
HH-60G... Fly Safe!
AC-500B Twin Commander "N6367U", My Baby C130
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning