From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.asian.america,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Re: Education (was: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?)
Date: 13 Dec 92 19:34:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bz7qCq.Jrp
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

In article <justin.724223500@mik.uky.edu> justin@nx30.mik.uky.edu (justin sullivan) writes:
>In <Bz64Aw.FHv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>
>>In article <00724038179@elgamy.jpunix.com> elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>
>>Yea verily!  In fifth grade, I had a teacher, Mrs. Kovasic, who was a real
>>hard a**, (I didn't like her very much) who made us turn in one book
>>report every week.  The book had to be approved by her (there were a few
>>LONG books, like _Gone_With_The_Wind_-long that she would give 2 weeks),
>>and was usually 100-200 pages long.  I got bitten by the reading bug,
>>and read all kinds of 'adult books' - Science Fiction, Westerns, 
>>Mysteries - it wasd there that I really got the 'hang' of reading - 
>>since then i was able to pore through novels of almost any length and
>>at least write a few coherent sentances about them.  I think about that
>>age, that kind of program should be adopted, it really cured me (and
>>we even had an Atari to compete with! :) :) ).
>
>>By the way, I still can't diagram sentances! :)
>>(In my opinion, one of the LEAST useful skills I ever was forced to try
>>to learn!)
>
>Interesting you should bring up grammar.. Most people write the most
>horrible papers. I would almost be forced to call most of  America 
>
>'semi-literate'.. By today's standards, at least. They don't know how to
>write original work in the true sense of the word.. Just dry, spineless
>papers that follow the 'form' of the essay. Blech. They can't spell..
>They can't read a map.. My father is a history professor and gave a test
>with maps on it.. Maps that were in the textbook, and they all failed.
>I think they quit teaching spelling in second grade, and so most  
>Americans can't spell..

I am assuming you remove yourself from this terrible group.  Unfortunately,
you are falling into the 'few defines the whole' gap.  Sure, Scientists
and Engineers are not known for their ability to communicate, and invented
grammar and spelling checkers for this purpose.  HOWEVER, to condemn the
whole NATION for this is the highest folly.  As for myself, I never learned
how to *diagram* sentances with any real skill, however I do know how to
write and express myself (speech and writing which are both VERY different
styles) despite being an engineer.

I do not doubt that geography is not learned well (though personally, I
collect maps and LOVE cartography) in school.  A number of grad students
ASKED ME WHERE SOMALIA WAS LOCATED!!  But then, using engineers and
scientists as you measure of literacy is a big mistake (even geographic
literacy).  

>
>>I think Math and scince are two subjects that need a national adjenda:
>>	My Elementary education in both was highly confused and
>>	fragmented - the science we learned was just a blur, and not
>>	much good - no labs, just reading (bleh!), Math was regemeted,
>>	but fragmented, it took until my first Calculus class in college
>>	to get all that math straightened out (it was *not* a fun first
>>	semester when i was a Freshman).  I still, in grad school, feel
>>	the deficit between what i know and what my peers who were educated
>>	elsewhere know and can do.  So much time was wasted!
>
>>I think that a national cirriculum is important - and I would like to
>>see aptitude tests at the beginning of the year to let the teacher at
>>the new level know what needs to be emphasized more.  But a list like:
>
>I think I would prefer a better focus, rather then more of this 'liberal
>arts' nonsense.. Being in a technical field (computer science), I would have
>been MUCH better off going to a technical university (like MIT), bot because
>of the name, but because four years of concentration on my field of choice
>would undoubtedly result in a much better scientist.. I'm wasting all this
>time fulfilling 'University Requirements' like Basket Weaving and 
>Communications. Well-rounded? I don't think so.. All it results in are
>graduates that are weak in all areas, including their major.

No, in that respect you are a fool.  The 'liberal education' that people
insist upon in undergraduate is much better than a super focussed education,
since you do not use a whole lot of what you learned in college in your
job.  And to condemn yourself to a purely technical education not only makes
you two-dimentional and boring, it perpetuates the 'semi-literacy' you
complain about!

>I have French friends that envy my 'liberal arts' education.. I would put
>any of their high school graduates up against any US college graduate..
>I know a Japanese professor here who (as it turns out) was not kidding when
>he called his class stupid, saying that any high school student could do
>the work these college seniors were.. What he meant was that any JAPANESE
>high school student could do the work the college seniors were!

Two points here:  A Japanese High School graduate has been fully educated by the
time he reaches University, the rest is a 4 year party with it all review.
Second, because a professor gets pissed off at a class and goes off on
a rail does not mean that he is accurate in his assertations nor does it
mean that he is being entirely fair in his accusations!  Your French friends
are right to be jealous, after college, learning about history, philosophy,
music and so on becomes MUCH harder as time disappears and opportunity
vanishes! 
>
>You want more aptitude tests? Why? So colleges can raise their standards
>and deny even more people a higher education? The price of a college education
>alone automatically puts it out of the reach of tens of millions of Americans..

No, not as enterance exams, but as a tool to allow the teacher to tailor the
lessons to match the deficiencies of the incoming class - READ MY POST NEXT
TIME BEFORE COMMENTING/TRASHING IT, OK???


-- 
+-------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         | NE PER INGENIUM | The above personal opinions     |
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu | MEUM SED DEI    | can be yours too for only $50!  |
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