Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

>/ iftccu:talk.politics.guns / vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) / 11:02 am  Jan 20, 1993 /
>Rick Bressler writes:

>There's no safety on my favorite concealed carry gun, either (a 2-1/2"
>Smith & Wesson 631 J-frame).  I don't understand why that should mean
>that I shouldn't have to learn to lock my 1911-A1 when I carry it with
>a round in the chamber (and cocked), in order to be less likely
>(statistically) to have an accidental discharge with it.

Have you disabled the grip safety?    If you are really worried, get a 
series 80.   It has the fireing pin block that makes it much like your 
revolver.  It won't go off as long as the trigger isn't pulled, and if 
for some reason the seer fails, it won't go off even if the hammer falls.

If you think the safety on your 1911-A1 makes it safe, you have not 
explored the issue.
To be carrying around outdated technology and whining about a safety that 
doesn't safe the darned thing, even when it's on, is silly!  Either that 
or carry in condition 3.  If you are relying on that safety let me remind 
you that a good blow to the hammer can break it easily.  It is also 
possible for you to wipe it off unintentionally.  How about a sharp blow 
to the muzzle?  Even if the safety is ON and working, a 1911-A1 can 
discharge.  The fireing pin isn't loced in the 70 series and earlier. 
It is free floating and can set the round off in the chamber.  This has 
happened more than once.  One of the posters estimated a 15 foot drop 
is necessary.   Ayoob has seen them go off falling from the holster. 
Draw your own conclusions.  (It DOES depend quite a bit on the health
of the firing pin return spring.)

>>Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot has been THE
>>basic safety rule for several hundred years....  Any extra bit of safety
                                                  >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>is of course helpful (such as mechanical safety's), but NOTHING beats a
 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>It's not fair if you're going to start arguing my side. :-)

Only giving it the VERY slight bit of attention it deserves. :-)


>A great rule, but too simple.  Bullets have trajectory, as we all
>know, and don't follow a simple line of sight rule.  The limiting case
>is if I fire the rifle straight up into the air (don't try this at
>home, folks!) and the bullet comes back down with enough force to put
>my eye out (probably despite my shooting glasses).  I've deliberately
>aimed (approx.) 180 degrees away from what gets hit.  And that's about
>as far from the "laser beam" as I can possibly aim.

Doesn't that fall more into the category of be aware of your target 
and what is behind it?  More of a correlary might be to make sure 
you can HIT your target.....  About the only time I fire into the air
is when I'm bird hunting.  Then I know that the shot will have little 
or no energy after a few hundred yards.  I either know what is 
that far away or I don't fire.

As to delibretly aiming 180 degrees away from what gets hit, I can only 
imagine that you are playing some sort of billards game with bullets. 
I can't understand what sort of situation this is, but would enjoy
knowing.  If there is a practical applcation I'd like to know.  I must
admit, it sounds a lot like irresponsible screwing around to me, but I've
got an open mind.

Be sure of your target and what is behind it.


>The fact that such things happen even to world class competitors would
>seem to reinforce my thought that people should be taught to safe
>weapons (whenever possible) until on target.  I hope it doesn't need
>to be said (but then again, this is t.p.g) that in so saying I'm not
>precluding other rules.

No.  You learn to draw so that YOU DON'T DO THIS!

>>There is NO excuse for violating rule 1.    Probably the best set of

>Amen.

Ah. Agreement. :-)


>rules I've run across is:
>
>>2) Always treat a gun as if it were loaded. (Not quite the same thing as
>>all guns are always loaded.  We often know when they aren't and nobody
>
>You're sweating pennies on the national debt. :-)  I consider the two
>phrases to be synonymous, if your mileage varies, that's OK with me.
               ^^^^^^^^^^

Well, not really.  Consider:  I would never try to clean a gun I 
know to be loaded.  Yet I will steralize it and do so once I've confirmed
that it isn't loaded.  Yet I won't point it at my daughters head 
even though I know it isn't loaded.  See the difference?  If not, then 
I agree, you should consider the two phrases to be synonymous and praise
your courage in cleaning weapons that you should rightfully be terrified 
of. :-)

>Without trying to undermine the importance of this rule, I'm afraid I
>disagree, as I've pointed out above.  Hope what I said about
>trajectories was clear.  My point is that since the average shooter
>isn't a Cray, knowing where the trajectory will place the bullet at
>all times isn't possible.  For proof, talk to some 500-yd antelope
>hunters. ;-)  There are also errors introduced when a person falls

It's interesting that you pick hunters.  Did you know that about 70% or
so of the 'high' accidental death rate due to firearms (about 1400 per year)
are HUNTING accidents?  These are often people who as you claim launch 
bullets with no idea of where they are going to land.   All of these 
(or most anyway) firearms have mechanical safetys.  They didn't help 
because these bullets were for the most part deliberately launched.

I know people carrying shotguns in the field, (safety ON) who have 
dropped, bashed or otherwise managed to set the gun off and even 
shoot themselves!  (I forget the number but many hunting injuries 
are infliceted by members of the same hunting parties.)

Very few could be avoided by mechanical safeties.  If the few that could, 
it would still have been a better idea not to  have been pointing the 
gun at the person in the first place.

>(for example) while carrying, despite the best efforts to point it in
>a safe direction.

If you can't do that, you probably shouldn't have a gun in that situation.
The only time it might be justified is in an 'emergency' when you are 
using the gun to defend life.  If for example you persist on wearing a sholder
holster and have to sweep accross innocents on the draw you are taking 
a chance.  If I'm one of those people, I'm not going to be real happy.
You'd better get the bad guy, because we are going to 'talk' about it and 
you'd better have a good reason.

>>  Gun safety is not solely habit or conscious thought.  It is

>Agreed.

Ah, blessed agreement, twice in a post, we're setting a Usenet record.


>Don't point the damn thing at anything you don't want a hole in!
>
>And use the safety if you've got one! :-)

Some of the kidding that I've subjected you to aside, I've heard of 
VERY FEW unintentional discharges that were not caused by pulling the 
trigger.  While perhaps unintentional, these are nevertheless deliberate
acts.  Safeties won't help.  How often do YOU pull your trigger to see 
if the safety is on?  How often do you pull the trigger and forget to 
take the safety off?  

Speaking for myself, when I'm shooting a gun with a safety, it's so automatic
to wipe off the safety before firing that I can't imagine it helping me 
in an unintentional discharge situation.  The only thing a safety is 
doing protecting against some level of design deficiency or mechanical 
failure.  The 1911-A1 might need a safety.  A DAO probably doesn't.  There 
is probably a reason that the former are being relegated to the status 
of 'target' guns and collectors items and the majority of professionals,
(Jeff Cooper aside!) are going to the latter.

Basically any form of training that has too many decisioun trees is 
inherently weak.  How many is too many is of course debatable.  Certainly
you should understand any gun you handle, but this doen't address the 
fact that at some time you will probably be handed a gun you don't understand.
At that point, your decision tree should be very short.  Keep it pointed 
in a safe direction.  If there is no safe direction, put the gun down.  
It is not an appropiate place to be handeling a firearm.

Rick.