HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov (James L. Felder)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD?
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Sverdrup Technology, Inc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:58:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.013750.3020@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
(David Nye) wrote:
> 
> [reply to pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu]
>  
> >As I clearly noted, I *forwarded* the article. *None* of the contents,
> >drivel or otherwise, were mine!
>  
> What was it in the forwarded article that you thought would be of
> interest to us in alt.atheist?
> 
> David Nye
> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu

That there are scary people out there who firmly believe that if they can
just get their brand of moral meat hooks into my "soul" the country would
be saved.  More importantly, they firmly believe that forcing their
delusions down everyones throat is justified to return to those utopian
days of yesteryear.  Just because such drivel is laughable doesn't make it
any less dangerous.  I'm sure the Jews of Europe in the '20 didn't take the
ravings of a lunatic head of a small hate group as a serious threat.  Sure
antisemitism hounded their existence, but this guy was not threat, right?

These people are even more dangerous, IMHO.  They have GOD on their side,
therefore anything they do is blessed.  Remember, the large majority of
people in the US are Xian's, or claim to be.  All it would take is some
major societal catastophy, and these, I follow the one and only right true
way, people would come storming out of their hiding places to convince the
nation that the cause of their enemies.  Its already happening, just look
at all the finger pointing at "humanism" in our schools being the root
cause of our current "decline" as a nation.

As you, I think, and perhaps others have pointed out in this group, Xian's
world view is based on emotions, not cold logic.  Find the right hot
bottoms, especially when the subject is under stress, and you can make
those who are guided by emotions do anything you want.  It doesn't matter
that most Xian's are a peacible lot, their world view makes them ripe for
this kind of manipulating.

Sorry if I ran on, I tend to do that when I'm scared shitless. 

James L. Felder            (216)891-4019         -My opinions are MINE-
Sverdrup Technology, Inc.  jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov  I think that should
NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland 44135        cover all bases, 
                                                  don't you.

"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge -
    other people gargle"
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 28 Dec 92 19:21:08 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Dec27.135019.7768@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.120409.1687@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>Look, all I want is for someone, on EITHER side of the issue, to cite
>>some support more substantial than the "me and my friends" argument.
>>That's all I ask.  Refer me to a paper published in some reputable
>>journal, and I'll be happy.
>Tell me, how many people do you know? 300? 400? 500? Are those insignificant
>values?
>
>8 people out of 1000 means that the sample was 1000. How come you find it so
>hard to understand anything? Must everything be served to you on a dish?

Stephen Doe's request for journal citations was perfectly reasonable.
His criticism of your reasoning was completely justified, and he is
perfectly right to say that, as we are unwilling to accept such
feeble reasoning from Christians and other theists, we ought to
insist upon sound reasoning from atheists as well. All your snideness
in response to Stephen's perfectly justified requests does nothing
whatever to improve the quality of your reasoning (though you
could improve it whenever you like by complying with his requests;
From: jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Religion = anything that's fun is bad.
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:20:54 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <1992Dec13.185429.23798@timesink.chi.il.us> harry@timesink.chi.il.us (Harold Platypus) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.005116.16799@doug.cae.wisc.edu> mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>>
>>Why?  I so much prefer the argument.
>>
>
>Me too... that's the only reason I'm here.
>- Harry

Ah. Playing the devil's advocate eh?
        -John David Munch
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ok, truce?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:10:29 GMT

In <910773f.43.724643257@axe.acadiau.ca> 910773f@axe.acadiau.ca (HEATHER LEE FYFFE) writes:

[...stuff deleted...]

>I believe in that truth-type #1 somebody described.  I will not forcibly 
>state that the truth as I believe it is undoubtedly that Truth.  However, 
>that does not change the fact that there _can_ only be one Truth, by its 
>very nature, whatever it is.  If the Truth is that there are many little 
>truths, then that is still the Truth.

One viewpoint is the "perennial philosophy", i.e. that there is one
primordial Truth which every religion contains.  The deeper one
understands each religion, the more one sees the similarities in the
essences of each religion.

I don't know too much about this philosophy yet, however I plan to
educate myself about as much as possible about this soon.

I have heard that there is a good book on this by Frithjof Schuon (I
think its title is "The Transcendent Unity of Religions").  Other authors 
who have written about this are, I think, Rene Guenon and Huston Smith.
 
 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:00:22 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 90908502@muser

Excerpts from netnews.alt.atheism: 19-Dec-92 iq<->religion: connection? by 
Iikka Paavolainen@mits.m 
> Am I seeing wrongly, or is there a connection between one's IQ and one's
> religiousness? Of all people I know, I know only about 8 exceptionally smart
> people (IQ>125), and all of them happen to be atheists. On the contrary, the 
> dumbest people I've seen (eg. unable to use a remote control) are the most
> religious. Observing other atheists that I don't know (from this group for
> example) leads me to make a conclusion that on the average, atheists have a
> much better sense of logic (and thus usually have a higher IQ) and think much
> more clearly than religious people. From my own experiences, I can say that
> freeing oneself from the grasp of religion requires a certain level of logical
> thinking. Coincidentally, all these 8 people are mathematically gifted.
> When I speak of atheism here, I mean it to be a lack of belief in any god or
> superstition.
> Opinions?


Observation:  Atheism is far more common and is accepted to a greater
extent in Europe (certainly the UK) than the US.  Xian fundamentalism 
is a far smaller force in Europe.

Does it then follow that the population of Western Europe has a
significantly greater percentage of persons of high IQ than the
United States?  :-)


-- 

Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:24674 talk.religion.misc:24850
From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:26:57 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

>|*I* don't hate homos nor do any Christians I know!  Prehaps you are confusing
>|our rage that our children are being taught in public school that its
>|acceptable behavior and we have to pay for it!
>
>Liar.

Why am I a liar?

>
>People like you are why I despise much of Christianity.

I could care even less.


-- 
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Fun ways to get rid of fundies...
Date: 30 Dec 1992 00:00:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


	A good one is that if you see them coming to your house,
take a copy of ICE-T's "Body Count" and put in your stereo, cranking it
on the song "Cop Killer". Most of them freak when they hear lyrics like
.....

	"Got my black shirt on."
	 got my black gloves on
	 got my ski mask on
	 This sh-- has been too long

	I got my 12 gauge sawed off (IE: shotgun)
	I got my headlight turned off.
	I'll have to bust some shots off.
	I'll have to dust some cops off

Chorus:	I'm a cop killer, better you then me
	I'm a cop killer, F--- police brutality
	


	By the time of the second verse, they should turn a very interesting 
shade of white.


<my tape is a copy and the lyrics are not perfect>

-- 
A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
  also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
   WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
-------bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu-----aa1439@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu-------
From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 30 Dec 92 01:12:37 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <1992Dec29.141114.11620@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>
>I don't have a study I've made. And this is not a debate/argument.
>You can't have one unless you've made a thesis, can you?
>

Then *I* stand corrected. You came across like you had made some kind of
formal study.  From my viewpoint, anyone that can confidently state that they
know enough about the universe to conclude there is no God is anything but
intelligent.  I mean no offence by that but I'm sure you can empathize with
my reaction to your statement.


>>
>>>>Where is your statistical study of this area of intelligence?
>>>
>>>On my desk.
>>
>
>See above.

Not to beat a dead horse but first you say you have a study.. then you don't.
.... just pointing it out... I'll assume you were goading for reactions.


>By stranglehold I mean that nearly everyone is a believer and no one else
>to go to for other opinions.

nonsense.  You may be able to say this for folks from the Middle Ages where
the Roman Catholic Church practically ruled Europe but not in this age.
A Islamic or Communist country *maybe* but not the 'West'.  Anyone who has
not seeked other opinions has not done so by pure choice (stupidly I might
add).  I don't know about your country but here the majority of people read
and have a wealth of ALL types of literature at their fingertips regardless
of how rich or dirt poor they are.

>>So if the proof is insufficiant then their intelligence has little bearing on
>>their grip on reality.  You do not have sufficiant proof that there is no
>>God so I find intelligence (or lack of) has little bearing on the valid-
>>ity of any religion (much less Jesus Christ).
>>                                                          ^
>                                                           |
>2) This was meant as a poll for opinions, NOT an argument  |
                                                            |
    Ok.. that is my opinion then ----------------------------

>>
>>pssst! Your ego is hanging out all over the place.
>
>As is your attitude.

tou-che'  :-)


-- 
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan)
Subject: Re: I still wouldn't worship it.
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:49:02 GMT

In article <1hr0soINNiip@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:
[snip]
|> 	For me it is just seeing it as more than just "god", sinse
|> most of the definitions are BS, but it is not holding beleif in
|> the supernatural.  It is not like we beleive in ghosts, but not god,
|> but that we tend not take ALL supernatural  and superstitious claims
|> SERIOUSLY, because there is simply no reason to.

Is there a term for a person that is an asupernaturalist or an aparanormalist?
Or did I just answer my question?

Is skeptic good enough?

Mike Noonan
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman)
Subject: Religionist
Reply-To: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:26:55 GMT

    A religionist experiences himself as an asshole and wants God to turn him
into a bubblehead.
================================================================================
	"In that world, you'll be able to rise in the morning with the spirit
you had known in your childhood: that spirit of eagerness, adventure and cer-
tainty which comes from dealing with a rational universe."
                                                              AYN RAND
================================================================================
Stephen Grossman <PMSC13SG@UMASS.EDU>
================================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: jwest@wisc (Jeff West)
Subject: Re: I.Q. & Brains
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: world,public
Date: 29 Dec 92 12:41:16 CST

sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
: In article <1992Dec29.135223.11305@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
: >
: >Yes, IQ tests have been put down very much, because they don't measure enough
: >of one's intelligence. Many people who could solve problems easily when
: >having a lot of time to think, are suddenly klutzes when they have to think
: >more speedily (like in a conversation, for example). So complex are the niches
: >of the brain, that it would be impossible to measure everything at this
: >level of technology. Well, some measure is better than no measure.
: 
: If the measure is flawed, then it is worse than having no measure at
: all, because your measure is then misleading.  You seem to have a very
: casual attitude towards these sort of things.
: 
: SD

Does this hold true for religion too?
(i.e. If the religion is flawed, then it is worse than having no religion at
all, because your religion is misleading.)

Jeff

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

    - Calvin & Hobbs

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan)
Subject: Atheists in the Military
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:27:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.060818.2936@jcnpc.cmhnet.org>,
Mike A. McAngus wrote:

[By the way, Mike, thanks for trying to post for me.  We're back up now.]

} I CAN'T STOP THE US ARMY FROM BUYING BIBLES AND DISTRIBUTING THEM TO THE
} SOLDIERS IN SAUDI ARABIA.

I guess the ideal situation, is to have the church buy the bibles with
funds on which they have already paid taxes.  Then present them to the
army for distribution.  I'm as atheist as anyone here, but I'm also an
officer in the Army.  There is no way that I am going to refuse my men
the chance to read a bible if they want it (and circumstances allow for
it, obviously).

This does however bring up a point that I have not thought about for some
time as I have been on an extended leave of absence from the service.
When I was receiving my initial officer training, a chaplain would come
to the field with our unit at times.  Services weren't regular, but every
now and then an hour would be set aside, and an attempt was made to
accomodate the various faiths.  However, if you were an atheist, and did
not want to attend, you were given duties instead of allowed to sit
around and rest.  After being in the field for weeks, you have to be
quite the militant atheist (no pun intended) to refuse to attend
religious services.  I went simply to get a chance at some shut-eye.

This seemed a minor form of discrimination, but discrimination nonetheless.

I'd be interested in hearing any other experiences regarding atheists
in the military, as I am being activated in three short weeks.

-Mike Noonan
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Iikka's Claims
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:05:02 GMT
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland

In article <1992Dec30.085553.16195@nwnexus.WA.COM> pcrayne@halcyon.com (Peter C. Crayne) writes:
>Ok, I've been following the debate about IQ vs Religious tendencies, & I
>finally am fed up. I hope that this message is directed at the correct
>person. Some of the attributions got pretty deep.
>
>Iikka, you claimed to have a study relating to
>this topic. In some of your messages you claim that it included 1000
>subjects. I want proof! Who conducted it? How was it conducted? Show it
>to us! Proof, proof, proof!

Yes, I do have a study, but not made by me. I did not claim it included 1000
subjects, my observations did. And third, I have no claims to this topic,
just questions.

>Unless you prove that it exists, I will believe that you are a liar!
>Your messages have shown sufficient weaseling to make me doubt its
>existance.

Ok, you know now that it exists.

>
>(Opinions follow)
>Also, your bragging about your IQ is crass and unseemly. If your claim

Where did I brag abou tmy IQ??

>is true (after all, your honesty is in doubt) why do you need to tell
>everyone about it? Your attitude is much like people who know their
>height down to a tenth of an inch, or men who know the exact lenth of
>their penis. People who are comfortable with a certain aspect of
>themselves usually are not so proccupied with measuring it exactly.


>
>I know quite a few intelligent people, and some very 
>intelligent ones. Not all of them scored high on IQ tests. Also, most of
>them don't go around bragging about their test scores. The few that do
>are, as a rule, self-important jerks. 
>In case there is any doubt: Yes, I am implying that you may be a
>self-important jerk. (Although I have not read enough of your messages
>to be sure. Maybe an off day :-)

The point was, that IQ might have a correlation, which is supported by the
studies. Why should I brag with my IQ?

>
>-Pete (Ticked off at blind arrogance)
>pcrayne@halcyon.com
>"Statistics are no substitute for judgement."


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: christen@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Carl Christensen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Genital-grabbing
Date: 1 Jan 93 20:08:46 GMT
Organization: Temple University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Martin Dougiamas (martin@cs.curtin.edu.au) wrote:
: I was just browsing through the bible (Good News version) and came
: across this little gem:

: "If two men are having a fight and the wife of one tries to 
:  help her husband by grabbing hold of the other man's 
:  genitals, show her no mercy; cut off her hand."
: 	- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

I had to look this up myself, I just couldn't believe it.  Yup, there
it is.  Was this a common way to break up a fight back then or what?
What an odd thing to put into a religious document.  

An eye for an eye, a hand for a ball!  :)

----
Carl Christensen
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:45:00 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Iikka Paavolainen (iikkap@mits.mdata.fi) wrote:
: [In Response to Mike McAngus's post]
:
: Try figuring out first what 'insult' means.
:
: --
:  __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
: /o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
: \__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
:    `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'

Although I said I wasn't going to do it; an insult is treating someone in an 
insolent, contemptuous or condescending manner.

Most of your posts have been insults.
-- 
Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
Even if you choose to ignore it. | 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Discrimination (was Re: Women. . . SHUT UP!)
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 22 Dec 92 07:18:09 GMT

mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:

           [stuff about no discrimination on any trait deleted]

>This is a nice sentement, but there are very valid reasons for people to 
>discriminate.  An employer should be able to discriminate on the basis of 
>ability and experience.  A lender should be able to discriminate on the basis 
>of credit history.  A landlord should be able to discriminate on the basis of 
>past rental history AND current income.

>It is, unfortunately, necessary to state what forms of discrimination are not 
>acceptable:
>     race
>     creed
>     lack of creed
>     color
>     lack of color
>     gender
>     sexual orientation
>     lack of sexual orientation
>     physical handicap (unless it directly affects job performance)
>     mental handicap (after all, where would we be without the theists?)
>     (any others?)

Age
Lack of Age
Religion
Lack of Religion
Opinion
Lack of Opinion


Jeff.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan