From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Visserians came to earth and abducted 2.5 million Muslims in 1914?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 21:39:05 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <visser.726864221@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

+>>	There is no open debate with a coward who is so ashamed of the material
+>>that he is posting that he hides his real identity.

+>"Visserian" of "convex.com" is having an experience that is common to
+>many pathological liars and ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists/revisionist who 
+>are in recovery and who are healing their "brain within". By the way, 
+>where does your shame come from, Mr. Mouthpiece? 

>	You might be better to ask of your own shame, of why you hide
>behind the name "Argic", of why you fear to debate your material or
>answer challenges to it.

There is no need to smile when you cry, "visserian". Remember, if you feel 
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum 
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to 
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, 'visserian',
but a fact.

I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, 
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan 
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is 
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in 
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel 
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

+>As for the numbers, 
+>I do have a copy of a demographic history on the question of the numbers 
+>which was published by a major American university press, that of New York 
+>University, copyright 1983. Its author, Prof. Justin McCarthy, is 
+>chairman of the history department at the University of Louisville in 
+>Kentucky, and a scholar whose expertise in this subject is so 
+>universally recognized by his peers that he was chosen to write the 
+>entry on 'demography' in the major reference work in the field of 
+>Middle Eastern studies, "The Encyclopedia of Islam." Nor has his 
+>expertise been ignored by the U.S. Government. Professor McCarthy holds 
+>perhaps the unique honor of having held a National Science Foundation 
+>'national needs post-doctoral fellowship in demography' and a National 
+>Endowment for the Humanities 'senior fellow' grant in history. 

>	That paragraph is a nice introduction.  Because you and McCarthy
>seem to be at odds in terms of the content and conclusions drawn from his
>work.

So you have been grazing where I have left you off. Your inability to 
distinguish between the Armenian Genocide of the Muslim people in 
Anatolia (see McCarthy) and the Armenian Genocide of the entire Muslim 
population of x-Soviet Armenia (see Hovannisian) is truly amazing.

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Just for the sake of discussion, I will omit all other massacres and
atrocities committed by the Armenians against the Turkish civilian
population during the numerous wars and war-like activities between
1914-20 and limit my comparison only to the activity of the Armenian
government between the Armistice and the last Turco-Armenian War in
1921 to that little more than two-year period when Armenia was a
recognized independent sovereign state and a state of peace between
Turkey and Armenia was existing.

I will leave aside all the savagery and massacres of Armenians, Armenian
irregular bands, and the Armenian Army, but will just mention to you the
greatest of all their endless crimes.

The two years of their independence was the only time in which they had
complete political control upon their alien population. The entire Turkish
population of Armenia (which they called Tartars) constituted at least about
40% of the total population of Armenia was deliberately exterminated. (For
the population statistics, please look to the book of Richard Hovannessian,
"Armenia on the Road to Independence.") I listed three books earlier of such
a monstrous crime by the writings of one Armenian, one American, and one
British. They are: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill; "Adventures
in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson; "World Alive, A Personal
Story" by Robert Dunn. Also, I personally have copies of documents of this 
crime by the writings of two Armenians and also one American. The official 
British report about this massacre mentioned in one of these documents 
(Lord Curzon-Aharonin interview) is the report of the British High 
Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.

By Rachel A. Bortnick 

"A more appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
 systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the 
 independent republic of Armenia (which lasted from 1918 to 1921),
 which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that
 republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated 
 in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."

The following is a partial list of the references on the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslims (in English).

 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 
   1926

   Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
   published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
   Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
   people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
   Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
   against the Turkish people in Armenia.

 2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
   Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925

   Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.

 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
   Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952

   Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American 
   Officer.

 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
   The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 
   (Spring 1964)

   Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
   were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
   Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs 
   include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister 
   Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The 
   official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British 
   High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.

Now wait, there is more.

"A vivid and a fascinating book."

+ Bookm 67:xxxvi My '28 300w

"He is telling the story of another, he has told it in such a 
 convincing manner that it reads more as the direct narrative
 of Ohanus Appressian than a second-handed account. The book 
 abounds with thrilling incidents."
    
+ Boston Transcript p4 Ap 7 '28 150w

  Christian Century 45:858 J1 5 '28 80w

  Cleveland Open Shelf p63 My '28

Reviewed by Lyman Bryson
	New Repub 56:26 Ag 22 '28 430w

"It is a straightforward, live, human document and shows men as they
 are - good, bad, worse or indifferent. Refreshing is the artlessness
 with which these pages disengage the fact that the Armenians, over 
 whom so many tears have been shed, are as murderously that-ish as
 Turk or Tartar; and as a picture at first hand of the efficacy of
 war and race hatred as producers of bestiality and ruin..."

 + N.Y. Evening Post p12 F 11 '28 220w

"He tells his story simply and directly..."

 + N.Y. Times p3 Ji 1 '28 430w

"It abounds with cruelty, bloodshed, and abject misery..."

 + Outlook 148:434 Mr 14 '28 250w

"...Appressian telling his own story in his words..."

 + Sat R of Lit 4:655 Mr 3 '28 300w

"The story is well told, and gives remarkable insight into the manners
 and life of an interesting people of Caucasus. It holds the scales
 evenly in its judgements, is easy reading, and mingles with sorrow
 for these people, excellent comprehension of all sides of the problem 
 that the Armenians so long have created for other nations of the world."

 + Springf'd Republican p10 Ap 11 '28 650w 

Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."

p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)