HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:01:44 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Dec15225404@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>Look, the Arabs want to kill the Jews:
>[from a recent posting on Hamas]
>   >>>**   d) The Islamic movement is one link in the long chain of fighters
>   >>>** against Zionism.  We are looking forward to implement Allah's and the
>   >>>** Prophet's promise to the effect that "the time will come when the
>   >>>** Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them.... Even if Jews should hide
>   >>>** behind trees and rocks, these will cry out: `Oh Muslims, there is a
>   >>>** Jew behind me, come and kill him..." (Article 7).
>
>Look, the Jews want to kill the Arabs:
>[from a recent newswire on current events in Israel]
>>         In the town of Lod near Tel Aviv, where Toledano lived, crowds
>> gathered outside in the rain and screams of anguish were heard from
>> inside his family's home. Jewish youths ran through the mixed Israeli-
>> Arab town Monday night, yelling, ``Death to the Arabs!''
>

	I'm not justifying the mass killing of either group, but the two
	examples you have picked are somewhat different.  The Hamas posting
	is an example of a creed to live by.  The Jewish youths' chant was
	an angry reaction to a murder, which will probably subside.

	Geoff

>Should we be surprised by this?  No.
>--
>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: military occupation
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:24:04 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Yigal Arens

 YA> To Josh Backon:
 YA> It is not clear what the benefit of such a visit might be,
 YA> when we consider the fact that you LIVE in Israel, and yet
 YA> seem to be rather uninformed about what goes on there.

Ooo--a true zinger. Wish I'd said that.

Thanks for filling in some of the details about the Defense
Emergency Regulations. I thought it was commonly recognized even
in Israel today that there are severe human rights problems with
the military occupation, but I guess not universally recognized.
I can't imagine why Josh would try to defend it, when the human
rights abuses are so well documented.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  Library of Congress on a chip
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:43:49 GMT

jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:

>>Every Arabic language paper in the city printed the fact that the
>>"Temple Mount Faithful" had been prohibited from marching.  They

>Why is this compelling?  If there wasn't a conflict there wouldn't be a
>problem of trust in the first place.  In any event, the "Temple Mount
>Faithful" _did_ gather, and _did_ march.  They were stopped out of sight
>of the plaza.  They were not shot, nor tear-gassed, nor arrested.

They also were not violent, and didn't start, without any provocation,
stoning innocent worshippers below them.

>>rioted because of the irresponsible use of the Mosque loudspeakers to
>>spread false information.

>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
>The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
>automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.

That's an interesting rewrite of history.  George Orwell, where are you?
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Caught in a lie.
Date: 19 Dec 1992 13:25:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


From Wayne McGuire...

#To: Mark Ira Kaufman
#
# MIK> This is the SECOND TIME you claim that you have received
# MIK> hate mail from me!  YOU ARE A LIAR!  You've NEVER gotten
# MIK> one piece of mail from me in your life.  I HEARBY GIVE YOU
# MIK> UNRESTRICTED PERMISSION TO REPOST ANY MAIL THAT YOU HAVE
# MIK> RECEIVED FROM ME. Please realize that if you do not post any
# MIK> mail received from me, this group will realize what a lying
# MIK> piece of garbage you are.
#
#Why Monsieur Kaufman, you have just provided us with a wonderful
#example of the kind of hate mail I am referring to. 

    The truth is that you have publicly claimed that you received
    mail from me.  You lied.  And you got caught.  Now you put on
    this lame act of pretending that you were refering to posting
    publicly in the group, when you were calling it 'mail.'  Even
    YOU are not that stupid.  And we are not stupid enough to buy
    your little charade.  You lied and got caught.  If you had on
    ounce of class, you would apologize for the lie.  Please stop
    insulting the intelligence of those in this group.
                                                   
    And if you really ARE so stupid that you do not know that the 
    word 'mail' means MAIL, you should not be allowed onto usenet
    until you know what you are talking about.

    So tell us Wayne.  Are you totally corrupt or totally stupid?

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:37:11 GMT

In article <1602@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>In article <4570@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec10.001819.2413754@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John
>>Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>
>>>>..
>>> Israel is an intelligent and peacefull government, and
>>>the PLO is just a bunch of scum arabs;
>>
>>In order that our discution will be more intelectual
>>I'll ask the readers to inform the net about their OWN countries.
>>
>>Please wrote what soldiers of your own army are expected to do
>>when they are stoned?
>>
>>  A mericans. please inform us what an American soldier is expected to
>>do if he is stoned at Somally ?
>
>Leave.

While I don't often side with Gideon Ehrlich, in this case I am forced
to.  Jonathan, the UN mandate given to the multinational forces
currently operating in Somalia does allow shooting back if resistance is
met.  Anyone who doesn't think that stoning doesn't fall under the
category of possibly deadly force needs to re-think their position.
Under the UN mandate, the US (or any of the other nations') forces would
be justified in countering resistance.  Similarly, Israeli soldiers
shouldn't be expected to either "just leave" or to completely turn the
other cheek when attacked.  If there is to be withdrawal it *cannot* be
unilateral.  It must be guaranteed through international agreements, and
Israel must have such a document in its hand first.  To ask any less
would be just plain stupid.

I sometimes have a hard time believing how naive people can be.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 20 Dec 1992 02:40:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


  No.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Pollard & Neo-Nazis
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:07:04 GMT

>Btw, if Robert Friedman says that letter exists, it exists. He a
>professional journalist of the highest quality. Pollard is
>clearly on the record as supporting the most repulsive forms of
>Jewish terrorism.

  MK> Will you PLEASE produce this record to which you
  MK> continually refer?  Prove that Pollard is indeed on record
  MK> as supporting terrorism.  You have repeated this accusation
  MK> without even a single quote to support it!

I have posted the quote now at least twice, with full
documentation. I will post it yet again at the end of this
message.

Is it your impression that the New York Review of Books is like
The National Enquirer or maybe The Weekly World? That a
journalist of Robert Friedman's stature just made up the story
about Pollard's letter? What's the scoop with you, anyways?

The fair and reasonable presumption here is that Friedman is
telling the truth. If you have any evidence to the contrary, why
don't you produce it.

<doctype>book review
<author>Friedman, Robert I.
<serial>The New York Review of Books
<date>October 26, 1989
<vol>36 <num>16
<pages>8(4)
<book author>Blitzer, Wolf
<book title>Territory of Lies: The Exclusive Story of Jonathan
Jay Pollard

<excerpt>

     Given Pollard's extreme views, it is not surprising that he
     has been in touch with radical right-wing Jewish
     organizations in Israel and America. In a letter to Yisrael
     Medad, the American-born aide to Knesset member Geula Cohen
     of the ultra-right-wing Tehiya party, Pollard praises the
     Gush Emunim "patriots" who blew the legs off two pro-PLO
     West Bank mayors in 1980 car bombings. He only regretted
     that the Jewish terrorists did "half a job." Pollard also
     asks Medad to pass along his personal regards to several
     Gush terrorists still in prison.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Babri aftermath (Re: Malcom X)
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:35:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.161648.7275@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>Hindus in India destroyed a mosque, Muslims "retaliated" by destroyng
>11 Hindu temples, and 700 people died.

You neglected to mention that most of the victims were Muslims in both sides
of the border (PAK/Ind/Bangl.).. and that while most people killed by Indian
authorities are Muslim, most people killed by Muslim authorities are Muslim
rioters.. that should tell you something..
>
>I'm not sure how relevant this is to the middle East, except to show
>us what happens when religious fanatics start attacking each other.

I myself was really disturbed by the actions of Muslims in Pakistan, but
I do not think Fanatism is the cause, the real cause is intolerence, extreme
irrational emotions and hateful tribalism that is causing all of the violence
in Elections for example. Witness what happens even between Muslims in that
region. The recent actions of Banazhir Butto to topple the government before
election to take advantage of the ethnic strife in the country shows that all
politicians are using those unfortunate characteristics of the laypeople in 
Pakistan for their political advantage. Butto of course is not called a fanatic.

=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
Phone Number and Address variable...
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality in Islam
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:24:31 GMT

In <18121@autodesk.COM> mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook) writes:

" Nope. I mean Egypt. Why be so coy? I didn't say that Egypt was full of
" homosexuals. Anybody vaguely familiar with Arab society knows that while
" a man will probably marry and have children, sex between men is common.
" So if we westerners can't be considered "men," I guess we must be
" women, right? Sounds good to me. I'm gonna have a *good* time.

   In that case, beware of the alleged extremists. Take your need of
prophylactics and KY with you. Please, be safe to those who will violate
their "beliefs" to share a "*good* time" with you. Have fun.
Bonne voyage.

             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
   \_\  --/ _/                      
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Occupation
Date: 20 Dec 92 09:24:50 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

<1992Dec20.053857.20960@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim):

If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
the ONLY occupying force in the world today.

	Wrong.  Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey are occupying
	Kurdistan.  The PKK (the Kurdish version of the PLO)
	seeks to make Kurdistan an autonomous Kurdish state.
	In the last eight years, over 3700 people have died
	in clashes with the PKK in Turkey alone.


-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Treason vs. Espionage  was:Re: ARF on Pollard
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:03:41 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL

In article <1992Dec9.155208.24883@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>#arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>##   Why don't we start right here?  I will offer enemy acts and the FOI can
>##   balance the list....
>##
>##   1.   USS Liberty  31 dead American sailors, 151 wounded
>##   2.   Pollard, treason
>##   3.   Nuclear triggers. 809 stolen from the US.
>##   4.   Threatened to use nukes if we didn't support them against Egypt.
>##   5.  Government officials call Pres Bush an antisemite.
>##   6.  Prime minister repeatedly lies to US president.
>#
>#5 and 6 seem to be rather silly.  6 especially, as one should _expect_
>#a politician to lie.
>#
>#But you forgot
>#    7.   Terrorist bombing of US Information Agency libraries in Cairo
>#and Alexandria.

Most knowledgeable Miedeast followers know that was a Mossad job.
>That should be condemned, but:
>
>
1) It happened 40 years ago.

And of course you will remind of all of that when the Holocaust comes up?
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Islamic Law
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:10:26 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <42478@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
>	And rightly so.  If Islam would leave these matters to
>	Allah, there would be few complaints.  But many in the
>	West find it absolutely disgusting that Islam would put
>	to death a woman who confessed to adultery 
>	or an apostate who mocked Islam.
 
Unfortunately you still do not understand that "these matters" are
infact subscribed to Muslims - to uphold the laws of God, according
to the Quoran, and Sunna of the Prophet of Allah (saws).

Do those same Westerners find it abhorent what the laws are as
prescribed in the Old Testament and other Biblical readings - i.e.,
stoning adulterers, villages of homosexuals being wiped out, the
raping and pillaging of towns (and taking the young, virginal girls
as 'prizes'), as well as incest and fornication by everyone - from
the common folk to the prophets themselves?

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:33:20 GMT

In article <4698@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <BzBAHI.4vs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
>>Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
>>Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.


>His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
>for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
>very humanitarian on Israel's part).

You should not criticize israel's behavior, whatever they do is selfdefense,
and whatever the oppressed palestinians do is criminal.  They paralized
and almost em-blinded Ahmad Yaseen, it's OK.  They shoot children
in the streats, its ok.  No one is expected to fight back. As one
of their more honest says:  The teritories are not occupied, they are
leberated.  You should know what you're dealing with Sister.  PEACE
AND OCCUPATION DON'T MIX.  HANAN ASHRAWI CAN FLUSH THE TOILETE WITH 
HER PEACE EFFORT CRAP.  THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN BIGGEST ISRAEL.
ISRAEL IS TOO LITTLE NOW TO BE SUFFICIENT FOR ALL IMMIGRANTS AND
BELIEFS.


>If Israel is so interested in peace with Palestinians, they wouldn't
>have expelled the 400 accused (mind you, not tried in a public court. 

YOU SAID IT. 

>Even if they were, their fate would be sealed anyway) of collaborating
>with the Hamas.  They were just targetted before this and Israel had its 
>excuse and further justification to expell masses of Palestinians (despite
>condemnation by the world community).
>
>If Israel was so interested in peace and living in peace, they would do
>everything in their power to cut to the chase on the peace talks and stop
>occupying and oppressing Palestinians in the territories.

WHY DO you think the amount of supporters for Hamas is growing massively?
Because the sought PEACE doesn't make sense. IT IS THE PEACE FOR ISRAEL
AND NO ONE ELSE.
>
>Anisa
>
>	"We just hope that the Israelis will reciprocate and will
>	not continue to creat such painful and aggrevating conditions
>	on the ground that need to further hostilities and feed the
>	cycle of violence.  The occupation is an abnormal, distorting

You can hope again.

>	condition.  It has to come to an end.  And I think only then
>	will you see an end to violence."
>						Hanan Ashwari
>				Interview on ABC World News/12-16-92

I WISH TO BELIEVE HER.

jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:09:13 GMT

In article <1568@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>In article <1992Dec7.205912.5188@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>>for you to remember.  How about the Aqsa massacre 2 yrs ago when the 
>>>israeli soldiers killed some 20+ [17] palestinians because they 
>>>wanted to protect the mosque from destruction?
>>
>>Every Arabic language paper in the city printed the fact that the
>>"Temple Mount Faithful" had been prohibited from marching.  They

>Why is this compelling?  If there wasn't a conflict there wouldn't be a
>problem of trust in the first place.  In any event, the "Temple Mount
>Faithful" _did_ gather, and _did_ march.  They were stopped out of sight
>of the plaza.  They were not shot, nor tear-gassed, nor arrested.

They also cooperated with the police when told they would not be
allowed to enter the plaza.

>>rioted because of the irresponsible use of the Mosque loudspeakers to
>>spread false information.

>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.

You fail to mention that the "crowd" was counter-protesting by
dropping rocks on the heads of the Jews praying below them, at the
Western Wall.  I was in Jerusalem that day, and saw the cleanup crews.
There was at least one truckload of rocks taken away, most of which
were larger than fist sized.

According to reports there were barrels full of rocks placed so that
the "counter-protest" could throw rocks more easily.


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Shamir says ( Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:22:56 GMT

In article <BzEsy9.ILK@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.010144.6869@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>>
>>	I'm not justifying the mass killing of either group, but the two
>>	examples you have picked are somewhat different.  The Hamas posting
>>	is an example of a creed to live by.  The Jewish youths' chant was
>>	an angry reaction to a murder, which will probably subside.
>>
>>	Geoff
>Maybe you did not hear about the recent Shamir quote:
>
>	``We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the closest
>of contacts. We know that these people have no respect for human life,''
>Shamir said.
>	``They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''
>
>He was your prime minister, you know!
>
>
	First of all he isn't MY prime minister.  I am an American citizen
	and have no voting rights in Israel.  Second, he was recently voted
	out, in case you didn't hear.  Finally this quote has nothing to do
	with calling for the death of all Arabs so it isn't relavent to the
	discussion.

	Geoff
-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peculiar coincidence
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:50:40 GMT


In article <23087@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
I don't know what to make of this peculiar conincidence, but I thought
perhaps some other Usenet readers might be able to shed some light on
it.

	We might have to call in Hercule Poirot on this one.


Is this incredible or what?  I have not reformatted either of the texts.
Note that they are absolutely identical!  

	When I saved Mr. Perlman's post, the text 
	reproduced was absolutely identical!   Will wonders never
	cease?  Incroyable!


Now, I can imagine that 

	Indeed!

Mr. Evans, say, got a hold of the relevant article before Mr. Perlman, 
typed it in and sent it to his friend, Mr. Perlman, who later used it in 
his post.

	I have not had private correspondence with Mr. Perlman this
	year, email or otherwise.  
	

That's not unreasonable.  But note that the first line in both of
these excerpts is not part of the article, it is a supposedly original
sentence, yet IT IS ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL IN BOTH!!

	INCROYABLE!


So, what's going on?  Are some people around not capable of generating
their own posts, and instead are getting them written by others?  Who
was the original poster here?
How come I can't find anyone to write my posts for me?
Yigal Arens


	Here is a helpful hint.  Passages written by me are indented
	to distinguish them from reproduced parts of posts I am
	responding to.  For example, the paragraph above was written
	by Yigal Arens, whereas the present paragraph is being 
	written by Ron Evans.  Elementary, my dear Watson.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)