From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Debunking the standard myth was Re: Couple of thoughts..
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:29:09 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA



In article <M1WCC00.92Aug19112309@mcfss2.fed.frb.gov> m1wcc00@fed.frb.gov (Wayne C. Cook) writes:
>WC: Didn't say that.  It's preordained with regard to leaping and preordained
>    what kind of touch you have and it's preordained what kind of rythm you
>    have and on and on.  You can be born with the ability to do all of these
>    things well. 

Sure some people are born with advantages over others, no amount of
practice will let me shoot like Larry Bird, or jump like Michael Jordan.
But Michael didn't just walk out on the floor as a junior in highschool
and start skywalking, the guy got cut from the varsity team as a sophomore,
if he was born a great leaper, how could he get cut? Answer he was small
and still learning the game, he spent the year practicing, working out
and growing and came back the next year and became the star.
>
>WC: Did you become a better shooter as your vertical declined?  That's your
>    theory right?


My senior year in highschool most of my points came on jumpshots, my knee
at that time was a real problem, I lost a full step in quickness and couldn't
even touch the rim witha running start(I could grab it from a standing 
start before the knee problems), so I had to adapt my game. In pickup
it doesn't matter as much everybody is a little slower, jumps a little
worse etc. so when I play now they call me Sarunas because I take it to
the hole almost every time


Of course my " theory" is that its a developmental process and that process
took place before I was 15 and got bad knees. I have improved my shot
since then, but I don't have a gym(or the time) to spend working on my
shot the way I spent playing pickup or working out when I was much
younger. Ever notice that "gym rats" tend to be shooters like Mullin
or Alford, while playground players tend to be great dribblers, leapers,
but questionable shooters(Kenny Anderson)?


>WC: Was it that you couldn't jump a lick, then did mega jump
>    roping and toe raises and shoes and then you could jump 30" vertically?
>    What was your verticle before?  Was your body constant otherwise during
>    this period or were you growing significantly?

I was growing of course, but so were all the other white kids I grew up
with(and Hawaiians and I think maybe 2 black kids I went all the way
through school with), and none of them played and practiced the way
I did, and none of them could jump as high as I could.

>WC: I think the proponents of this "environment affected jumping" idea are 
>    overemphasizing the notion that white kids spend all their basketball
>    hours in glistening gyms.  I'd be willing to bet they spend more time
>    on blacktops and driveways than hardwood.  And they idolize Jordan and
>    Pippen and other take it to the whole type guys and therefore aren't
>    spending all their time practicing standstill shots.  


Maybe some of them do, but the ones that are in the NBA(which I think
is who we're debating) tend to fall into 2 categories, slow 7 foot
backup(Kite, G**y,Engler), or shooters like Mullin, Hornacek,Price
Bird etc. who don't jump very well(Hornacek isn't a bad leaper, but
not a good one either). When we read stories of these guys in thir
youth, they all say the same thing, "I was a gym rat, I locked myself
in the gym and took thousands of shots a day, I don't have a tan 
because the sun doesn't shine in the gym, my dad was a coach and we
spent hours me shooting him rebounding etc." Then I read about Marques
Johnson whose dad put a chair in front of the basket in his driveway
so that everytime he went for a layup, Marques had to jump over the 
chair. Or I read about Chris Jackson who used to run backwards sprints
in the sand wearing army boots, run fullcourt drills at full speed by
himelf on the playgrounds in Mississippi, and then go down to a big
playground game and "try out" all his moves against the local talent.



>WC: I'm trying to remain conversational as opposed to argumentative in an 
>    annoying way. It gets difficult though when it seems like people don't
>    read carefully before opposing.  I arrowed (^^^) above the part that you
>    obviously missed.   

Sorry, I did miss that part, but I still ask if you think all blacks
who can leap just suddenly become leapers? Chris Jackson can really
jump(37" I believe) and I know he worked to develop it.

>WC: 3 guys.  Well that supports my statement that their are a few white guys
>    that can jump.  Just like there are some blacks that can't.  And, as I
>    said before, no, I don't think a million years of jumping around in the
>    sand will help anyone jump significantly better.  Nope.

It also shows that you don't follow pro beach volleyball very closely
either. There's only about 20 guys who regularly play all the matches
in the league,of those 20 at least 3 have 38+ verticals, virtually
every guy on the tour can sky,virtually all of them are white guys
from southern california who grew up playing beach volleyball. Just
read a piece on Karch Kiraly this morning, how he used to practice
5 days a week with the national team(6 man ) and then play all 
weekend on the beach(2 man). Now he just plays 4 days a week on the beach
to prepare for the weekend matches. He's a great leaper too.


You may be right, its certainly fair to say(IMHO) that from highschool
on black competitive athletes tend to be faster and jump higher than
whites, this shows up in track, basketball, baseball and football, but
thats all the evidence we have right now, and I just am not prepared
to use that evidence and proclaim blacks genetically superior athletes.
It may be true, and it wouldn't shock me if there is a difference, but
there's no scientific basis to arrive at that conclusion.




Russ Smith
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George-"When I was 13 I used to run barefoot under the sprinkler wearing
an inner tube".

Jerry- "Well girls mature faster than boys".

Jerry Seinfeld and George on a 13 year old Olympic diver.
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