From: cho@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,misc.education,talk.politics.misc,sci.edu
Subject: Re: Why can't the liberals just admit that public education has failed?
Date: 26 Jan 93 11:06:12 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati

In article <C19tr2.L01@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
> In article <1993Jan21.112126.2519@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> cho@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
> 
>>Oh, I see...do you mean hire non-teachers, such as business people for example,
>>to teach math or business, and so on?  I have heard of that theory....there is
>>a certain skill/art to *teaching* that non-teachers sometimes lack.  For
>>example, *talking to someone* doesn't mean that they're learning anything. 
>>That theory may be OK in the college level, where lecture is more standard, and
>>practical knowledge very useful.  I think K-8 need to have some teaching
>>theory/practicum.
> 
> Or is it that the schools of education train their students to "teach" in
> such a way as to be, in some cases, worse than useless?  I do not think that
> straight  lecturing for a period is a good way to present material.  This
> would apply also to seeing a film or a TV presentation; the principle is
> the same.  

Well, lecture is an OK format for certain times, but there needs to be a
more than that...students interaction is crucial. For example,
a teacher should know how to 'raise the level of concern' (to borrow a 
phrase from Madeleine Hunter).  One way would be to say, 'There will be
a quiz at the end of this lecture, so be sure to listen for a, b, c.'
Or to raise it higher....'quizzes will be displayed on Parent Day, so be
sure you are paying attention.'  Anyway, a teacher could raise concern
levels too high, and should know when too much is too much.  But these 
are just examples of 'teaching strategies' that non-teachers may not be
aware of, or sometimes 'accidentally' or intuitively use, without realizing
it.

> 
> But the educationists strongly push memorization and "learning how to do
> practical problems", which means learning algorithms.  

Memorization IS important.  For example...if a student doesn't memorize
how to spell words, or know the simple math facts (I'm not talking about
heavy algorithms here) then those things ARE important.  But educators are
taught that this is the 'lowest' level of learning....sort of 'throw back'
knowledge.  It doesn't mean it's not important....but it also should not
stop there either.  You have other learning areas of 'comprehension',
'synthesis', 'application', 'evaluation', to name a few. (This is from
Bloom's taxonomy...good stuff, IMO)

They do not consider
> as being important learning structure, different children learning at 
> different rates, and even in different manners, as particularly important.
> On the other hand, they consider being with the age group as important.
                                                         
Well, I disagree with you.  It's impossible NOT to consider a child's
different learning rate.  However, back in the 80's, the trend was to have
everyone on an independent learning contract.  Everyone was doing something
different, so as to achieve individual goals.  It was very difficult to 
maintain, however, and I'm not sure that the students actually gained that
much.  Did anyone here on the net experience an 'open-concept' school as
a student?  I'd like to hear how you felt about it.  The advantage was 
being able to work in a somewhat noisy environment, and there were 'learning
centers' at every corner.  The disadvantage may have been that some students
needed more structure, and began to 'float' along too much.

Regarding age group, I'd like to put in my two bytes on that one.  When I
taught eighth graders, I often had 18 year olds in there, kids who had failed
many times.  Yes, they were a big (literally) distraction.  For one thing, some
of the eighth graders were 12 going on 13....and then you have these great big
18-19 year olds in there.  Some of those kids knew the 'system' so well, and
could very easily 'control' the mood of a class.  And quite frankly, some of
the smaller/younger kids were quite intimidated by them.  Also, many of the
older ones had huge problems with self-esteem, and I didn't think being in an
eighth grade class did much for their ego.  A teacher does what is possible to
raise self esteem, by giving students chances to show off their knowledge or do
meaningful tasks, etc., but it is awkward for them, and it has an effect on
everyone.

I think it is helpful to have kids 'age grouped' for the most part.  Just think
how you'd feel if you were a 5 years older than the rest of your classmates.  I
just think in childhood, it's tough enough without having to worry that you're
way older than everyone else because of failing grades, or even a lot younger,
because you were so gifted.  It would not be very easy for most, although some
kids I'm sure could handle it.  It's more than intellect...it's maturity and
interests of particular age groups in general.

> 
> So maybe we would be better off in considering the current teaching method
> credentials a reason not to hire, rather than a requirement?
> Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Hmmm, I think you're being somewhat hard on the education majors.  One thing
that I will say however, is I did NOT learn as much from my undergraduate as my
graduate, AND some of my best teaching techniques were developed from
inservices that I received during my teaching years.  These were specialized
inservices that teachers could take, such as the Hill Country Writing Project,
faculty like Dr. Gary MacKenzie at UT Austin, who has fantastic teaching
methods for geography, but applicable nearly everywhere, and Madeleine Hunter
inservices which gave invaluable ideas on 'motivation.'

I feel teachers who take advantage of these types of learning, as they are
teaching, gain tremendous teaching techniques that they can try out right there
in the classroom.

Regards,
Pamela Cho
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc