From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Mario Cuomo on the "wrongness" of abortion
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:02:26 GMT

*Still* avoiding dealing with his twisted upbringing by "parents" that
threw kids out of the house for disobedience (he needs to pretend he
likes them to get that inheritance), Hall/Chaney embarks on a whirlwind
round of ass-kissing his pro-life t.a. buddies:

> = (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
>> = Steve Novak wrote:

[to Pete "I'm really a janitor" Nyikos...]

>>It should be obvious, Math Whiz: I *admire* Steve Adams for being a real
>>christian and *not forcing his religion down my throat via secular laws*.
>>Not only is Steve a christian, but he's thoroughly versed in the bible
>>(I notice you've quit arguing bible with him, Nyikos) and can point out
>>you fanatics that laughably don't understand a damn thing about the
>>book.  

>Uh, well while you're right in your assessment of not forcing one's
>religion down another's throat, Suzanne Forgach, in my opinion, is
>also a real Christian. 

Real christians would most likely shun or pray for someone as hateful as
Suzanne.  Jesus, on the other hand, would slap her silly before FedExing
her ass to Hot Town.

>She stands firm on her Church's teachings (as
>opposed to me, who stands quite independently), and just like she
>smoked the last person who tried to say the Bible did not mention
>preborn human life as relevant, using text references as proof, she is
>extremely accurate with the Bible, probably more so than Adams.

Haw haw.  Sure thing.

Your typing this with straight fingers makes it no less humorous, and no
less crap.  There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus gave a damn
about abortion.  Later "interpretations" to satisfy personal agendas in
no way legitimizes Suzanne's ravings.  I could care less if the bible
mentions the "pre-born".

What a knee-jerk apologist you are.

>And as for Peter Nyikos, he is no fanatic and he understands the Bible
>WELL. 

Really?  While you're washing his car, maybe you can ask why he's quit
arguing with Mr. Adams, if he's such a bible scholar.  (Cluck, cluck.
Kentucky Fried.)

>People like Catholics for a Free Choice, if their point is that
>"Jesus is Pro-Choice," have never even cracked open a Bible because if
>they did they'd bite their tongues. Anyone who bases pro-choice on the
>Bible, should bite their tongues and get an education.

Anyone who fanatasizes and stretches the bible to suit their own
purposes is not even a christian.  Pro-lifers who base pro-life on the
bible have yet to come up with a single anti-abortion passage in the
bible.   

>(Then again, anyone who bases pro-life on the Bible, I would warn to
>look out for that constitutional wall between Church and State, called
>the First Amendment.) 

Indeed.

>Besides, there are plenty of scientific arguments that'll do the job.
>After all, someone who is not alive, cannot be growing and replicating
>their own cells; someone who is not their own individual self, would
>not have a different blood type at 3 weeks than their parents, much
>less a different gender at fertilization; and anyone who's read past
>the copyright page in a science book, knows that parasites, cancers
>and offspring, are totally separate categories. 

Agreed also.  However, anyone who doesn't consider the bodily autonomy
of the pregnant woman is (1) misogynic and (2) trying to obfuscate (1).

>>I have a friend named Brad who comes over and plays drums while I play
>>guitar and feign rock stardom.  We talk a LOT about religion and
>>politics.  He's told me more than once that I live a much more
>>"christian" life than many christian acquaintences of his.

>BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>STEVE NOVAK?! 

None other!

>Oh, no, gimme a break and give you a clue! 

<Modestly> Well, Brad gave me this honor.  I just humbly mention it.

>You, one of the most ranting and raving idiots that has ever tried to
>win the Mark IRantandRave Kaufman Award! 

From you?  Thanks, Stevie.

>Tell your imaginary friend Brad I said "Elvis is Alive!" for me,
>okay? 

Brad replied, "This Chaney guy sounds like he's a taco short of a
combination plate.  Everyone knows that Elvis, and the anti-abortion
movement, is dead."

Smart guy, that Brad.

>>I was proud of his statement and of him.  Because I have a secret hankering 
>>for religion, or need of approval from a christian?  No.  It's because
>>he was the first fervent christian I'd talked with about volatile
>>issues, yet he could recognize a self-avowed atheist as a person who was
>>_as good as he is_.  We enjoy each other's company, and in our most
>>heated discussions we always walk away as friends with no resentment.

>I don't have any problems with atheists. In fact my worst problems
>come from *certain* people on this net. I don't even have this many
>enemies on IRC, and I damned sure have tons more allies and friends
>there than I have enemies anywhere. 

Yay.  

>Oh, and by the way, if you are an atheist, do you use the American
>Dollar? I would indeed find it hard if I were an atheist, to purchase
>goods with "In God We Trust" on the back of the currency in my
>wallet.. 

Why?  I don't have to believe that tripe to spend the money.  I'm not as
pedantic as you, Chaney.  Of course, the scared puppies in power for the
Union in 1864, who added this to our currency to get more support for
the War they were floundering in at the time, should be vilified by all
True Americans who believe in the separation of Church and State. 

Do you agree?

>>Brad and people like Steve Adams give me hope we can go back to being an
>>America where good people, and FUCK their religion or lack of it, can live 
>>side by side and ENJOY it.

>I can agree with that. However, the religious right is no more
>dangerous or numerous than the religious LEFT, which can be seen at
>most animal rights, PETA lab-bombing, and treecutter-spiking rallies.

That's crap and you know it.  The religious right, as evidenced by that
neato Republican convention, is a fascist group of racist extremists who
think nothing of strangling the Bill of Rights, talking about "religious
wars" and founding a christian theocracy, and basically sounding like
snarling wolverines on speed.  In fact, their use of "religion" is a
mockery of those that really follow a religion.

Maybe because of your unhappy childhood, you're unable to see this.
Maybe because you yourself are bigotted against black women, you fail to
see the prejudiced tendencies of all your "heroes".  I feel sorry for
you.

>>People like you and Forgach and Liar Holtsinger and all the other
>>hate-spewing little fascist children make me wish that religion didn't
>>exist.  We wouldn't have that opiate of the masses, but at least most of
>>us would be working together on this earthly life.

>I prefer them (and Holtsinger is no liar - if he is then Susan Garvin
>must be "Liar" in Martian) over you. 

To each his own.  Remember that, Biplane Blockhead.  

>At least THEY are honest and up-front.

Ha ha!  No, really.

>People like Teddi, who bashed religion with their little .sig's
>and then claim to be religiously tolerant,...

Teddi blasts the Catholic Church, of which he was once a part, and I've
never seen him (her?) claim to be tolerant of the Catholic Church.  He's
got as much right to speak as a former member as Suzanne has to
fanatically defend it.

That's hardly your all-encompassing use of "religion".

Lying like a little boy about someone's actions is...well, typical of
you, Chaney.

>...and who would snap like
>some beast if someone printed a "Do the Jewish Rag" like the hypocrite
>Teddi is, are the ones who really fuck up America. 

I can't speak for Teddi, but that wouldn't bother me.  Plus, as you
conveniently and purposefully ignore, there is no synagogue or other
official religion within Jewry that is trying to ram their convictions
down everyone's throats, like the Catholics do within Christianity.  And
there's no one so arrogant as the goddam Church with their stupid "One
True Church or Go To Hell" teachings.  Ask Suzanne about whom SHE thinks
aren't "real" christians.  Talk about intolerance.

You'd have to be honest to acknowledge that difference, so don't bother
responding.

>People like Susan
>Garvin who has openly and clearly supported someone basing their
>pro-choice stand on religion, and then who talk about separation of
>church and state, are also extremely dangerous. Jesse Jackson and his
>merry band of religious Leftists spend more time trying to lie and
>find anti-semitism where it does not exist (like with Pat Buchanan),
>than explaining their anti-semitism. 

Jesse Jackson's support of his aide's stupidity regarding Jews does not
have my support, as you imply, Mr. Right and Left.  I think it sucks.
I'm happy his influence has diminished in the Democratic Party, as I
think he was a downer influence and a pain in the ass to getting a
Democrat elected.  He does not deserve boot-licking merely for being a
black spokesperson.

Pat Buchanan is a dangerous right wing religious extremist who,
luckily, has blown his foot off and will never be a credible candidate
for president ever again.  His hatred at that convention was not, as you
are well aware, limited to mere anti-Semitism.  That piece of shit hates
everyone not a WASP.  I'm not surprised you can't see that.  If he ever
were somehow elected, I believe you'd be dismayed at how he'd treat
black people (amongst many others).

>ACT-UP and its record of
>attacking Catholic Churches (and I still have articles about how they
>did that), threatening ministers with death in San Francisco (that
>finally made TV News), and their warnings that they will kill
>Christians in Oregon had Amendment 9 passed.. they get off almost
>scott-free. 

*If* this is true, and that's unlikely given your non-existant
credibility around here, than I would denounce such statements and
actions.

The fact that *you*, hypocrite, don't find that amendment a most amazing
piece of vitriolic legislation, shows you were too stupid to learn that hate
against ANY group of humans, like you and other blacks, is against
everything this country stands for.

>And YOU, mister RantandRave, Jr., then turn around and
>tell us some people say you're more Christian than most. 

Hey!  I have seniority on Mark Kaufman!

My *friend* said, I live a more christian life then many self-professed
christians do.  Get it?  Many "christians" don't, and aren't.

I sure put no stock in christianity itself.  I consider the bible, and
tenets of other religions as well, pure fantasy, and the idiots who spew
nothing BUT religion a source of continual amusement.

>The fact is, if Suzanne and co. spew hate (which they never have),
>they are at least up-front. We know what we are getting from them.

Damn right we do.  It has nothing to do with Suzanne lying her ass off
and embarrassing herself with some of the most stunningly brainless
statements on t.a. over the years.  "Upfront".  Yeah, right.

>With people like YOUR friends, we had to watch as churches in San
>Francisco had to go to the Supreme Court for their constitutional
>right to choose who they hire or fire. 

I have no friends in San Francisco, sonny.  I'd love to hear which
churches had to go to the S.C., and the specifics of what was argued.
Care to provide some facts instead of Limbaugh parroting?

>It seems that some of your
>LOVE-SPEWING liberals felt that the Church can have no stake in the
>State, but that the State can regulate how the Church runs its own
>internal affairs, like its hiring practices. But of course your
>buddies were defeated in court. 

Documentation?  Or do you merely wish to talk out of your ass?

>And with anti-Free Speech FASCISTS trying to make it illegal to
>picket in front of clinics when it is perfectly legal to picket
>anywhere else...

You poor little boy.  No one cares about pickets.  It's blocking women
trying to avail themselves of LEGAL medical care that is obviously a
crime.  

Are you in a seminary or something?  You're so out of touch with reality
is why I ask.

>...(hell, they even picket some military facilities and get
>away with it), it only proves one thing:
>
>Will America lose its freedoms to a few fanatic fascist Christians,
>into which all dedicated Christians are unjustly lumped (like Suzanne), 

Ms. Theocracy is a prime offender.  Are you two having an affair?
Platonic, of course.  She is one of the most fascist "Christians" I've
ever heard slobbering all over t.a.

>...or will America lose its freedoms to an army of smiling, love-spewing
>liberals and religious leftists, who attack under the cover of media
>blackouts, lies and good words (all of which cover their fascist
>actions)? 

Haw haw!  I heard Rush say this the other day.  My, you are mindless,
child.  "Religious leftists".  Hee hee.

>Actually, Mr. Novak, you should like Russia before it fell. It was the
>most atheistic nation in the world and religion never was a problem
>there. 

Nah.  Everything else about it sucked.  Besides, I'm all for religious
freedom.  It's you and your pathetic ilk that have no comprehension of
the Constitution nor religious freedom.  

>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>		    |A bastard today.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't bother with fireflies like you, but attributing falsely to me is
something I can take legal action against your university for, you
immature putz.  I'd suggest you wise up before someone not as nice as me
decides to carbonize your butt.

I'm sure you wish to apologize for your gaffe.  

>Of course I put that in myself because
>it is widely believed that Mr. Novak
>deletes this part from his .sig before
>posting to this newsgroup. :)  

You may be socially deprived, but at least your sense of humor sucks
:-).



-- 
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| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
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steven@advtech.USWest.Com
Newsgroups: talk.abortion