HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: DAMN THIS LIE!!!!
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 04:54:12 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <9211021758.AA52609@chaos.intercon.com> amanda@intercon.com writes:

 > Who has more authority over the British Army: the Queen or Archbishop Carey?  
 > Who has more authority over the U.S. Army: Bush or the Presiding Bishop of 
 > the Episcopal Church of the United States of America?  Even the Pope can only 
 > command his token force of Swiss guards, after all, and even there only with 
 > authority granted by Switzerland...

How much blood was shed in levering some of that military authority from
them as religious leaders, and given the opportunity how much would they
take back?

It seems to me the burden is always on the people, not vice versa.

 > I am not saying that politics and religion have been separate--far from it.  
 > I maintain, however, that religion is generally used as an excuse for war 
 > that is actually waged for political or cultural objectives.  In a similar 
 > way, I think that religion is being used as a smokescreen in much of modern 
 > American politics...

I would tend to agree, hence the above caveat on public participation.

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: radzy@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Lynne Radzykewycz)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1992 22:28:14 GMT
Subject: Re: When are you celebrating Samhain?
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

I wrote:
>When I get home tonight I'll also check my "Pagan Muse and World Report" 
>newsletter for any other events going on in the S.F. Bay Area this weekend, 
>and if I find anything I'll post it tomorrow. 

I found one other thing of interest to San Francisco Bay Area pagans:

      KKUP Annual Bewitched Music Special
      October 30th (Friday)
      10am - 3pm
      Tune in to KKUP-FM 91.5

      Host Eric Meece once again speaks with guests (of whom Janet
      Christian will be one) and plays an enchanting variety of
      what he calls 'bewitched music' - music that has a bewitched
      theme, sound, history, or all of the above.

(Side note:  Janet is one of our local pagan activists)

--Lynne

------------------
Lynne Radzykewycz
lynne@hpnst.mayfield.hp.com
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: hate and anger
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 07:27:27 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <2AF71FFA.22618@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu writes:

 > And I don't buy it that they're so intimately related.  When TMM leaves
 > the seat up, I am pissed.  Hate, though?  Never in a gezillion years.

What is this big deal about the seat being left up? Women get really
pissed off about it here too.

I mean, if a bloke really wants to get stuck into his woman over
something it isn't even necessary to yell, or argue, or beat her or
spend his entire pay getting drunk at the pub on Friday night, or
squeeze the toothpaste tube at the wrong end, or fart in bed, or
anything. All he has to do is go in and put the seat up . . .

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: regarding E-mail access to the Clinton Administration
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:17:39 GMT

alizard@pil.UUCP writes:

>OK, well, the Clinton campaign is in theory, supposed to have a new E-mail
>address some time in the next week or so... but it might be well to remind
>the organization that YOU want to be able to contact Clinton via E-mail...
>the more letters, the sooner this is likely to happen.

This is an excellent idea. I have to say I was very interested in the dialogue
that went on over PRODIGY between members and Bush, Clinton, and Marrou right
before the election. Cool stuff.

>And what about Congress? Both houses have E-mail systems... (I'd
>address that inquiry to your local Congress-critter.)

You can already write to most congressfolk via PRODIGY.

Re: the Senate women's room: 'bout bloody time.

Marty


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Seems like there ought to be a way we could look each other in the eye
To see we're all in this together, and put all thoughts of victory aside.
Seems like there ought to be a way we could turn this fear into trust;
No matter what you say, there has to be a way --
Every living thing is counting on us."      

Marty Hale-Evans                                 M   @   *   O   %   8   U
89 Mass. Ave., Ste. 199, Boston, MA 02115       \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:51:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <BxIH88.KL5@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>In article <lftljgINNlq@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>>>
>
>>Glad you mentioned this; I'll try to get hold of some stuff.  This IS
>>unacceptable.
>
>>I'm amazed she's married to someone who seriously reads and cites stuff
>>like Marija Gimbutas and Riane Eisler and talks about how we have to
>>change our spiritual relationship to the Earth. 
>
>Wow..I am glad this discussion came up.. I was not aware of Tipper's
>hidden agenda OR Al's apparent knowledge of Earth centered spirituality..

I should have qualified this: he HAS KNOWLEDGE of it, and is about as
open-minded as you're going to get in a politician.  He regards goddess
(small 'g') worship as existing only in the past.  He also -- and here's
where he's closed-minded by OUR standards but has it wide open compared
to other politicians -- considers that although there were "certainly
barbaric practices" it had good points, chiefly concerning reverence for
the Earth and natural cycles. 

Translation: he is aware of it, but does not subscribe to ALL the
prejudices.  Unlike any other VP or politician I know of, he is willing
to admit that it has its good points.  He is, however, also a little
ethnocentric in his opinion on monotheism.  He considers it to be the
greatest thing since sliced bread, chiefly because it came after Goddess
worship (MY capital 'G' now) temporally.  Here he falls victim to the
common notion of evolution as not only producing varied cultures but
varied cultures that are then subsequently ranked, with "later" being
equivalent to "better."  It is a common failing, and one that he would
dump if only he studied a little more anthropology.  

So, essentially, he is aware of its existence and aware that it has (had
more likely since he evinces no knowledge that it exists) good points,
but is still hobbled by popular misconceptions of just what evolution
IS.  Closed-minded by our standards, but wide as the Grand Canyon for a
politician. 

Blessings,
Janis 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Tipper Gore? (Re: the US elections...)
Organization: LLNL
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:33:03 GMT


	[On the whole Tipper Gore question...]

	There is the interesting question of what to do about sexually
suggestive yet inexplicit lyrics, or even sexually explicity yet
nonhostile lyrics. Janis Maria Cortese complains rightly about Heavy
Metal and Rap "songs" that feature misogynist, sexually exploitative
lyrics, as if women are to be possessed and used for the (male)
singers' pleasure. But what about (say) this example? [It was taken
from Madonna's most recent album, _Erotica_]:


	"Where Life Begins"


I'd like to direct your attention
To something that needs directing to
A lot of people talk about
Dining in and eating out
I guess that's what this song's about

I know that this is not a dining room conversation
And you don't have to listen if you don't have the time
But let me remind you
In case you don't already know
Dining out can happen down below

Everybody's talking 'bout
Wanting that and needing this
I'd just like to know
If you'd like to learn
A different kind of kiss

(Chorus)
So won't you
Go down
Where it's warm inside
Go down
Where I cannot hide
Go down
Where all life begins
Go down
That's where my love is

Now what could be better than a home cooked meal
How you want to eat it
Depends on how you feel
You can eat all you want
And you don't get fat
Now where else can you go for a meal like that
It's not fair to be selfish or stingy
Every girl should experience eating out
Sometimes when I come home from a hard day at work
I swear it's all I can think about

Everybody's talking 'bout
Wanting that and needing this
I'd just like to know
If you'd like to learn
A different kind of kiss

(Chorus)

Colonel Sanders says it best "Finger Lickin' Good"
Let's put what you've learned to the test
Can you make a fire without using wood
Are you still hungry
Aren't you glad we came
I'm glad you brought your raincoat
I think it's beginning to rain

Everybody's talking 'bout
Wanting that and needing this
I'd just like to know
If you'd like to learn
A different kind of kiss

(Chorus)

(Chorus)

That's where my love is
Come inside
That's where all life begins
Come inside


	What would Tipper Gore think?


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: kcater@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kenneth Cater)
Subject: Pagan Belief revisited
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 17:47:04 GMT


I wish to express my extreme intrest in the field Dianic (?) Wiccans. 
First of all I DO NOT practice with a coven therefore I have developed my
own ideas on what Wiccia means to me (first let me state that all wiccans
are witches BUT not all Witches are Wiccan)...for what I have seen of
Wicca and some of its followers...there are people in the craft that are
magickly unaware, it is truely sad that some groups of wicca are trying
the reverse of Christianity by only looking at the Godess side.  It is
from my personal experence that the Divinity is NOT God and/or Godess it
is without form and without limit...To give it a gender is to limit your
experence with IT, however it is had for somepeople to feel close to i8t,
therefore we consider it God/ess that is that IT is BOTH not one and not
the other, but Both.  To ignore one is to limit the power from which you
draw from Godess is to God as Construction is to Destruction (note that
Destruction is a nessesary part of the universe, and is not Evil for those
of you who see evil as a force) without one the other has little if any
meaning....This is my personal opinion and please pardon grammer/spelling
errors....

Bless Be......

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:47:37 GMT

In article <2AFC2A45.1829@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.101343.29619@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>>Why not? A so called "assault weapon" is no different than any other
>>firearm. It is no more accurate or lethal than any other.
>
>Are you serious?  Something capable of killing many hundreds of poeple
>in seconds is equivalent to a revolver, which has to be reloaded after a
>mere five or six shots and has to be shot individually for each round?

The only "gun" fitting Cortese' description is a plane-mounted,
electrically- operated "mini-gun", which is fed from a hopper and has
six barrels.  Comparing it to an "assault rifle" is like comparing a
cherry bomb to an H-bomb (to use her comparison).

There are two definitions of the term "assault weapon".  One is a gun
that looks like a military gun.  The other is a medium caliber,
selective-fire carbine.  The latter has been strictly, albeit
uselessly, controlled since 1934.  Now we're acting as if banning cars
that look like stock cars will affect speeding.

No matter how fast a gun fires, aiming time dominates.  (Shooting
without aiming is less time-effective than aiming.)  Reload time, no
matter how small the magazine, is in the noise.  Moreover, none of
these incidents have had any time-pressure, except for the people who
had no options but to hope that they wouldn't be shot.

Consider the stockton incident.  In 10 minutes, Purdy hit some 30
people and 5 died and even then he wasn't time-limited - he shot until
he was "done" and then killed himself.  He tried spray-and-pray,
reloaded numerous times, and almost all of his shots missed.  If he'd
tried to kill using the gas bombs he used to destroy his van, more
would have died.  If he'd driven his van across the school yard, more
would have died.  If you want to argue that his weapon encouraged his
crime, then it SAVED lives because his alternatives, including aiming
a single-shot rifle, would have killed more.

He shouldn't have been on the street, but various DAs, including ex-
CA attorney general Van de Camp plead-out his armed robberies and
other crimes.  They kept throwing the fox back into the chicken coop.

>Do you class cherry bombs and H-weapons together, too?

No, I don't.  I don't class them together because I know something
about both of them.  I class "assault rifles" with other guns because
I know that they really aren't significantly different.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: lazarus@maico.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: A Few Words About Election Results
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:54:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: maico.ksu.ksu.edu


Okay, this is my SECOND attempt to say a few words myself (sometimes I
HATE my newsserver...)

Personally, I voted Perot, but seeing Clinton get in there doesn't break
my heart.  ANYBODY but Bush!

Did anybody notice that, in a LARGE number of races for US Senate and
Represenative seats, the Democrats kept taking them?  Wonder what that
says.  Also, some of the check-writers got bounced.  Actually, I voted
for one of them, and he got it.  Thank the gods... the other is one of
them anti-choice Repubs from Wichita.  (Not that everyone in Wichita is
anti-choice, but they don't need any outsiders to come in and stir up
that shit again...)

Unfortunately, Bush took Kansas... I'll be bummed about that until the
middle of December, probably.  However, the President got only 9% of
the votes cast in Washington DC; Clinton got around *85%* of the Capitol!

Congratulations to everyone who WOULD have been affected by Oregon's 86ed
Measure 9.  Any news on Colorado's results?  Just their way of saying
that these people don't deserve to be pushed around.

Anyway, I've been typing quite awhile... take care all!

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
Thursday night on ESPN... the 'Cats vs. the Iowa State Cyclones...
    STUFF THE STADIUM!!!
"I'm confused... did I vote, or did I just buy candy?" -- David Letterman
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:59:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.215156.6244@decabo.abo.dec.com>
      wombat@nfinit.enet.dec.com writes:
>-In article <1992Nov9.235916.21601@csus.edu>
      altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>> In article <2AFC2A45.1829@news.service.uci.edu>
>>    cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

   [discussion of gun laws, etc....]

>- Janis, 
>- 
>- You're falling prey to the standard response of the pro-gun forces here.
>- 
>And you both have fallen prey to the standard anti-gun argument.
>
>The thing is, it's really quite simple. The second amendment is PRECISELY
>ABOUT these MILITARY, highly effective weapons.

Well, unless you know something about military history that I don't, there 
were no automatic weapons when the second amendment was written. And it was
written when the size of the government vs. the population was quite 
different than today.

>They are to PROTECT us FROM the government.

I agree that it was written with the intent to allow a civilian population
to arm against a tyranny, but we've long since passed the point where this
is possible.

>THAT'S why I want a weapon such as that. In fact, I'm not happy with merely
>a semi-automatic assault rifle. I won't be happy until I have a .50 cal
>gun in a pillbox, personally. (though I might trade off the extra protection
>to get it in an AA mount for use on helicopters.)
>
>And the people reading this group in particular should consider this. It is
>far from being a remote possibility that the government WILL come after us.
>
>Arguments about the things that deranged crazies do just doesn't cut it.

Well, you're pretty misled if you think you or any number of your friends
can take on the US government in a gunfight. First you'll battle ALL the
local police, then the county, then the state police, then the National
Guard, then the US army, the Marines, the CIA, the FBI and the NSC. I'm
probably leaving out a few. Maybe that's your preferred method of dying,
but I doubt many people (especially with families) would agree with you.

Do you have a family of your own, or are you single?

As Gandhiji said, the only effective revolution is a peaceful one. And if
you want change in government, organize your gun-toting friends and support
your own lobby, if the NRA isn't already doing what you want.

IMHO, the only reasons for owning a gun in the United States are for home 
and personal protection, target and sport shooting, and hunting. Anyone
who thinks they can stand up to the might of the entire US police and
military establishment is delusionary.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lowell@locus.com (Lowell Morrison)
Subject: Re: A Few Words About Election Results
Organization: Locus Computing Corp, Los Angeles
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:04:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.081429.28430@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>: 
>: I agree with your correction of the term "fascism", Bill. It doesn't apply
>: to any elements of the Democratic platform, if you read it. As for your
>: response regarding Clinton's plans, the only basis for these statements
>: can be opinion or the platform. Opinion is opinion; we can argue for days
>: to no avail. The Democratic platform does not call for a ban on handguns,
>: only a ban on assault weapons. I have yet to hear a rational argument on
>: why a private citizen should be allowed an assault weapon. The other part 
>
>And, why not. There are several types of target shooting that require the
>use of such firearms. I happen to compete periodically in one of them. I
Of course, the anti-gun types will question the NEED for any such target
shooting.  Forgetting that the founding fathers in the Second Amendment
were talking about things like Kentucky Rifles vs. the Brown Bess
Musket that the Brittish were using.  The Kentucky Rife shot straighter,
hit harder, and was faster to reload than the Brown Bess.  Why the Brown
Bess was so inaccurate that the British discouraged Aimed fire, and
relied on a whole company shooting to bring down one man, the 
beyonette was their main weapon.  This persisted through the war of 
1812 and the Battle of New Orleans.

>: is a waiting period. Do you have a big problem with a one week waiting
>: period? Just can't wait to kill someone? There has been no mention of 
>: a complete ban on handguns anywhere, except maybe the ranting of some
>: NRA lobbyists.
>
>I have not objection to waiting. I even have no desire to purchase any
>firearms. But, what does it gain?
Right, What does it gain.  Most of those Automatic weapons on the streets
of Los Angeles, in the hands of the drug dealers and gangs, never went 
through a gun store and a waiting period.  Infact it is quite easy to
get an AK47 or an OZI within 48 hours on the streets, If you are willing
to pay the money.  And with the profits from the drug trade, they have
lots of money.  During the LA Riots of this year, the police were ignoring
people guarding some stores (as was shown on TV) openly displaying Loaded
AK47s and in one case a "NEW" fully automatic Tompson Sub-Machine gun,
and those have been illegal since the days of Prohabition.

>all the gun control/confiscation legislation. Witness Diane Feinstein
>when she was mayor of San Francisco - now one of the senator elects
>from California.
And funny how the Gun used in the Incident was a hand gun not covered
under the "Semi-automatic" legislation.


--Uncle Wolf
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Host/Priest Communication:  What should I expect?
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:49:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <CLR.92Nov3225501@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, clr@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Christi Rockwell) writes:
> 
> normally i would expect to be consulted on things occuring in my
> apartment, but i've gotten the impression from the priest that i had
> no right to question things (or question the lack of communication)
> and that any questions would be seen as sabotage.  is this what i
> should expect in the future, or with other priests i might work with?

If I wanted to be bossed around, told I had no right to question things,
and otherwise deal with egotistical assholes who thought they could rope
me around, I'd still be a fundie and my poor mom would be sleeping better
at night.  Good lord, the guy sounds like he's on a major ego trip at your
expense and that's not my idea of a decent pagan priest.  Or any kind of
priest, for that matter.  I suppose he might have a valid reason for 
wanting to keep ceremony details secret, but the whole way you wrote
this up just screams of bad vibes and sounds like you're hoping we'll
suggest that you tell the guy to get lost.  Consider it suggested.

Dawn
"Then I check out that chick Leda with the swan pecking at her pink egg tempera
nipple.  Hey, what that swan be doing?  And why?  And how 'bout those plump
maidens, those hot cherubic babes being presented to Apollo, Dionysius,
Neptune or one of those other well hung gods?"  by Bongwater
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: akj <anonymus+2278@godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Laws and Discrimination (was that goddamned Measure 9)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 16:06:51 EST
Organization: godiva.nectar.cs.cmu.edu
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1

In article <1213@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> Ashley, ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com writes:
I am sure many of you have seen situations where a less 
>competent candidate for a job recieved the position due to their status
as a 
>minority of some sort. 

Yes, I have seen this happen.

I have seen this occur and I would support 
>legislation to make sure that no one got preferencial treatment, no
matter 
>what color, creed, sex, religion or sexual preference they where. 


I agree - totally


>	A person should not be able to threaten a potential employer with a 
>discrimiation lawsuit to bully them into awarding a job to them if they
are 
>not the best qualified applicant. Although this does not happen often,
and I 
>would rather live with this than the rampant discrimination our current
laws 
>protect us from, I cannot help but feel that there must be a compromise,
a 
>middle ground or a way to safeguard against this.
>
>	Discussion anyone?
>
>				- Ashley


Totally in agreement!  :-)
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12618 alt.magick:5768