From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a Baron
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:35:38 GMT
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <1992Oct14.193452.580@PA.dec.com> haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>Hal attacked the concept that we should support fairness at the expense of
>medieval recreation as did Arval. Arval then demonstrated that the East is
>a soft line kingdom which tacitly ignores local awards in non Baronial
>branches. The attitude in AnTir is that it is almost subversive for a
>non Baronial branch to institute local awards. There is a history of vocal,
>high level opposition to Provinces because they would lack the ability to
>make local awards.

I think we both pointed out that a move away from medieviality in
order to be 'fair' was probably a poor thing to do.

So far as I know, there West allows any group to give awards.  There
just aren't courts 'below' the level of Territorial Barons
(*explicitly* Court Barons may *not* hold court).  The Shire of
Esfenn, for instance, holds an annual tournament awarding winners in
various categories various titles.  No one (so far as I know) objects.
There is not only no objection, but active encouragement for folks to
make recommendations to Princes and Kings (and Barons, no doubt) to
recognize those that should be recognized.

Let me also note that I've lived in a Province since before there
*were* Provinces.  (I.e.  No one bothered naming to locality that long
ago.)  as such, I can hardly be accused of wanting for those around me
what I would deny others.

>However, I believe that honor and courtesy demand that we allow and
>encourage fair treatment of our membership. 

Agreed--in so far as it moves the SCA towards medieval models and not
away from them.

>Reserving a class of treatment
>to a select group on the basis of where they live seems dishonorable.

How about 'inequitable'?  After *life* isn't fair--and the SCA is a
lot fairer than many other things in life.  (Though I will agree that
being better than what's around you is no excuse in and of itself for
saying that that is good enough.  We should still strive for the ideal
even if we're ahead in the 'race'.)

Which would you rather have?  The knowledge that your fellow shire
members know who you are and what you're 'worth', or some dangly that
won't ever show up on the OP?  There is certainly no desire to stop
folks at any level of the Society from recognizing individuals.  It is
the specific forms that are being restricted.  One could as easily
complain that the restriction on white belts is unfair because your
garb ought to be worn with one...

>The obvious difficulty is how to justify 'holding court'. The biggest
>problem is the mapping between the title of seneschal and a medieval analog.

That's a large part of the 'problem'.

>We use seneschal as the title of the senior administrator of a branch, the
>de facto local representative of the Kingdom's executive officer. We then
>map the title to the executive of a castle or household to justify a non
>ceremonial role for the officer. Clearly, the executive of a keep has a
>limited authority to act in his Lord's stead but equally clearly, the Lord is
>a real person who will make regular appearances.

Those actions will be limited by the scope granted by the Lord.
Anything beyond that scope will require consultation with a higher
authority.  That's easier to do for us--a phone call suffices in place
of sending a messenger.

>Where is the corresponding Lord for a branch seneschal? He only exists in the
>case of Baronies (and the Crown Province of Ostgardr)! The Kingdom Seneschal
>does also has a Lord, the King. As far as I can tell, all other branch
>seneschals are, de facto, the Crown appointed Lord of the lands they
>administer. As such they should have the right to hold court when
>necessary. They certainly are but temporary, acting Lords and so rank
>below the lowest nobility.

Think of local Seneschals as acting as subordinates to the Kingdom
Senescahl and (therefore) having some fraction of the authority of the
Kingdom Senschal.

>Truthfully, the point at which the medieval model broke is the point at
>which lands were handed to non-nobles and noble titles were created
>independantly of land holding. To return to the original point, treating
>the populace unfairly because a fundamentally broken model of medieval
>behaviour would be even more broken seems both thoughtless and counter
>to our stated goal of education.

 I dunno.  Seems to be educational to point out that life is fairer
now than it was 1000 years ago--and that our models demonstrate this
fact...  :-)

>Second, both Arval and Hal attacked me insistance on a kingdom wide
>announced event. 

I *hope* that wasn't an 'attack'.  (I also hope that this missive is
not seen as one.  I much prefer discussions--even when there is
disagreement.)

>I agree that such an event may not be necessary for a branch
>to raise needed funds. I agree that a branch may not need funds. As Hal
>pointed out, it is possible to run such an event without raising funds.
>
>I ask you to go back to my requirement that a branch split before
>applying for advancement. Without some sort of requirement on the sub-group,
>there is nothing to stop a branch from forming a a paper sub-group whose
>only function is to satisfy this requirement. Requiring it to justify its
>existance seems essential. Requiring a public event seems a reasonable
>requirement and has the advantage that it is trivial for the Kingdom Seneschal
>to verify that the requirement has been met.

As an example....  If an event is announced in a local newsletter, in
this kingdom, the kingdom Chronicler is supposed to automatically get
all newsletters (I was reading Kingdom Law recently).  The Senschal
could check with the Chronicler to see if anything had been scheduled.

As for the more general issue...

It is sometimes quipped that the business of the Province of the Mists
is running the Kingdom.  we have a lot of folks whose primary focus is
kingdom or principality wide.  As such, we do very little
*as*a*local*group*.  But we often have many of the current 'movers and
shakers' at the local fighter practice.  Would you see this as an
equivalent level of activity?

Just as I probably see things differently than they're seen at a
remote Barony or Shire, there are central kingdom perspectives that
may not occur to folks in those remote areas.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare