From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies are racist (AND DANGEROUS)
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:46:58 GMT

In article <RLK.92Nov15093227@underprize.think.com> rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

# In article <1992Nov15.063905.14605@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
#    In article <dfs.721687784@lore> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
 
#    # In <1992Nov13.194419.10930@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
#    # makowsky@enuxva.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
# [doomsday drivel deleted]
 
#    # >	What you do not seem to realize is that the "natural" workings
#    # >of the world are going to lead it to do things that will be worse than
#    # >whatever will happen if Kach's policies are adopted.
 
#    # How do you know?  Perhaps you'd care to supply proof of this bold
#    # assertion.
 
# 	   I guess you are right.  The world is just going to start to fall
#    in love with Jews, and this will be shown by how the world treats the
#    Jewish state.
 
# How about actually demonstrating by one means or another that your
# assertions have some validity rather than just using "proof by sarcasm"?

	I used "proof by sarcasm" beacuse I assumed this to be just about self
evident.

# In any event, Israel is more or less tolerated or better by most of the
# world right now.

	De facto tolerated or De Jure?  I would bet it is defacto, and if
something "could be done about it" it would not be tolerated at all.

# Militarily there's no sign (that I can see) of anyone
# planning to attack it (modulo Hezbollah and friends, which have enough
# power to kill the isolated soldier here and there, and fire the
# occasional rocket into a northern settlement or two, but nowhere near
# enough to threaten the overall security of Israel).

	In the short term, I agree.  In the long term, I believe all the signs
go against you.  Do I need to tell you about the Middle East arms race?  Do
you think that Israel can afford to keep up?

# I will grant that
# Israel's in real danger if Iraq or Iran get the bomb along with a long
# range ballistic delivery system (IRBM's or sufficiently heavy artillery,
# such as the "supergun" that Iraq built),

	WHich they are trying deperately to do.

# but enough other countries are
# alarmed about that prospect (e. g. all of the Persian Gulf countries and
# probably Turkey) that there might actually be a chance of doing
# something about it.

	Maybe.  But a lot of players hae an interest (especially financial)
in helping it.  As for the Persian Gulf countries, some of them previously
helped to finance thi weapons surge, some are continuing to do so, and 
some will do it in the future.  As long as Iraq does not threaten them, they
have no reason not to help them.  As for Turkey, they have a common problem
with Iraq (the Kurds) and I do not see how helping Israel fits in.

# However, if Israel were to take up the exclusionary, militaristic
# positions of Kach, what support it has would evaporate in a hurry (I
# suspect that Serbia and assorted third world dictatorships might support
# it covertly, but there's not much they could do).

	Possibly, but I contend it will go that way anyway.  Israel is not
exactly a world supplier of important economic goods.

# It's not a matter or
# loving or hating the Jewish state or Jews in general, it's a matter of a
# basic sense of decency and practical politics.

	I think you have a misunderstanding of the role of foreign policy
for any country.  Forien policy is based 100% on interests, not on "a
basic sense of decency and practical politics", although they do play a role
in determing interests, sometimes interests can be in total opposition to
"a basic sense of decency and practical interests".

# The US isn't ashamed of
# supporting a basically democratic country, but it certainly would be
# ashamed of a country that kicked out an ethnic minority and turned
# itself into an armed camp,

	Possibly.  But look at some of the countries the US has supported
and then turned its back on, helping with their downfall.  Many of these
governments the US left in the cold were as democratic as could be expected
and were replaced with something much worse (I know several people who quit
amnesty international specifically because of what happened in Iran.).

	I also happen to believe that demographics and security concerns
will force Israel to take certain steps which will cause the reaction you
say will happen.  However, not to take these steps will be suicide for Israel.

	It is better for Israel to be hated and live, than for it to be dead
and eulogized.  Something to this effect was uttered by former Israeli Prime
Minister Levi Eshkol after a bombing raid into lebanon that was 
criticized by the whole world in the late 1960's.  It is still true today.

# just as no one will support Serbia these days
# because of what it did in Croatia and what it's doing in Bosnia.  And
# what has people even more upset at it than even its blatant land grab is
# the policy of "ethnic cleansing".  Territorial disputes are common
# enough, but kicking out people based on ethnic origin scares a lot more
# people (not just Jews), because of the Holocaust.

	I agree.  However, consider some of the ethnic cleansing that took 
place right after world war 2.  Not only did the allies go along, they
actually encouraged them.

#    # >	That is not the point, although G-d has made certain promises
#    # >that if X happens he will do Y.  Unless you are willing to call G-d a
#    # >liar, we can force Y by seeing to it that X occurs.
 
#    # Maybe you should spell out exactly what you think "X" and "Y" are,
#    # rather than couching this in abstract language.
 
# 	   Why is this important?  Do you deny my claim?
 
# Why not just give an example rather than trying to dispute every point?

	Because we are discussing a concept, not specific examples.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal