HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lwall@netlabs.com (Larry Wall)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Programmers
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:56:00 GMT
Organization: NetLabs, Inc.

In article <1992Sep12.043133.6177@linus.mitre.org> crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:
: The original assertion still stands -- number theory and computability has
: little business being part of an undergrad CS curriculum, unless the bulk
: of the undergrads can be expected to go on for CS PhDs, where they may find
: use for such things.

Indeed, if you want to set the world on its ear, you'd better have a
different set of ears than the world.

This applies to more worlds than just the world, of course.

Larry Wall
lwall@netlabs.com
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: king@feline.uucp (KingLeon)
Subject:  Appropriate Evaluation Scheme - Introductory Programming Course
Organization: Humber College Technology Dept.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 16:22:29 GMT

Our situation is as follows:

   1st year Electronic and Electrical Control Technicians have an introductory
one semester course in BASIC programming consisting of 2 hrs a week lecture
and two hours a week assisted lab.  Our Chair has mandated that this course
shall now have 50% of the assignment mark evaluated during the lab based on
work done during the lab.  An analogy would be an art class where a student
might be evaluated on composition, effective application of of a given
technique.  Or a typing class.

   Faculty are opposed to this approach as we feel that this kind of evaluation is unfair to the students  and that writing a program is more akin to writing
an essay.  However the Chair will save money using this approach since there
is less ascribed (if not actual) evaluation time outside the labs.

     I'm looking for opinions both in favour and against this approach as 
well as suggestions as to what would be appropriate to evaluate in the
lab?  Does anyone else have in-lab evaluations?  hhh

                              signed: Curious in Toronto




Xref: sparky comp.edu:1580 comp.lang.fortran:3477 comp.lang.misc:2973 comp.arch:9291 sci.math:11130
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:00:19 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Followup-To: comp.edu
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <Bu9FB3.BDK@world.std.com> jkenton@world.std.com (Jeff Kenton) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.123432.18806@bony1.bony.com> richieb@bony1.bony.com (Richard Bielak) writes:
>>Someone said earlier in this thread that "It is easier to teach a
>>physics student to program, than it is to teach CS student physics."
>>
>>This is just the kind of thing a physicist would say :-).

Mainly because a computer scientist never tried to teach physics. 

The biggest problem is the lack of essential (mathematical) prerequisites 
followed closely by the lack of appropriate physical intuition or 
experience with the subject matter of the course. 

>>A computer scientist would say that "It is easier to teach physics to
>>a CS student, than it is to teach a physics student to program."
>
>As a physicist by training (MS, almost a PhD) and a programmer for
>over 20 years, it's clear to me that it is difficult to teach anyone
>to program.  Everyone picks up the basics in their first class, but
>few get really good.  Even the stars take a while.    .... 

The main prerequisite for being a good programmer is a good grounding 
in the specification of a logical and complete solution to a problem. 
Without this, one can still be trained to write beautifully structured 
code, but the chances of the code giving a correct answer are zip.  Given 
this, both training and experience are needed as you point out. 

What is missed is that physicists and other scientists, by virtue of 
their training in their discipline, are likely to have the prerequisites 
for being a good programmer.  The preparation of computer scientists in 
mathematics (consider PDEs for example) cannot be assumed. 

--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
From: amos@huji.ac.il (amos shapir)
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Reply-To: amos@cs.huji.ac.il
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 6 Sep 92 13:37:15 GMT
Followup-To: comp.edu

hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>The present compilers translate such things as +, *, &, etc., into
>some version of assembler.  Why not allow the user to say how other
>operations will be similarly translated, and add them to the list?
>These operations often produce temporaries; why not tell the user
>how this is done, and let them be added to the list?  These would
>not really complicate the language design or the compiler, except
>insofar as precedence is affected.

You want C++, then; or the GNU compilers, which do allow you to dive
into the compiler's source and create whatever language extensions you
wish to.  The problem is, you'll have no time left in which to do the
job originally intended...

The point is, we can use very simple and flexible meta-tools like
assembler or FORTH to create our own tools - and end up each using a
personal hand-tailored language, unique and non portable; or use a
standard tool which does implement some constructs efficiently and
portably, but never all we'd ever need.
--
	Amos Shapir		Net: amos@cs.huji.ac.il
Paper: The Hebrew Univ. of Jerusalem, Dept. of Comp. Science.
       Givat-Ram, Jerusalem 91904, Israel
Tel: +972 2 585706               GEO: 35 11 46 E / 31 46 21 N
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: edp@math.zko.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Subject: Re: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Reply-To: edp@math.zko.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:41:55 GMT

In article <135691@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>, blair@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Gary
Blair) writes:

>Wrong.  If your compiler uses ANY kind of table-driven parsing scheme, it is
>next to impossible to allow programmer-defined operators.  The parser must
>know what an operator looks like, and what precedence it has  with respect
>to all other operators.  This is usually predetermined, at
>compiler-generation time.

Nah, it's trivial.  You do the operator recognition in the lexical
analyzer, which then passes a token of type "operator" to the parser. 
Thus, a program would declare the operator.  The compiler stores
knowledge about the operator in some data structure.  From then on, the
analyzer recognizes the operator as an operator from the knowledge in
the data structure.

Handling precedence is a bit trickier.  But if you are willing to stick
with a number of levels determined at compiler-generation time (by
encoding them into the grammar), it's trivial to give any operator any
precedence at compile time.


                                -- edp (Eric Postpischil)
                                "Always mount a scratch monkey."
                                edp@alien.enet.dec.com
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1574 comp.lang.fortran:3473 comp.lang.misc:2970 comp.arch:9282 sci.math:11122
From: blair@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Gary Blair)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:08:19 GMT
Followup-To: comp.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <KERS.92Sep4154056@cdollin.hpl.hp.com> kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
>In article ... fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON) writes:
>
>   C++ allows you to overload existing operators, although to make compiler
>   writer's jobs easier, it does not allow you to introduce new operators.
>
>Make that ``trivially easier''. So far as I am able to tell, the difficulty of
>allowing the user to add new operator definitions is rather close to zero, so
>long as this is taken into account *before* designing the language and
>compiler. (C++ has the problem of trying to incorporate the lexical structure
>of C.)
>


Wrong.  If your compiler uses ANY kind of table-driven parsing scheme, it is
next to impossible to allow programmer-defined operators.  The parser must
know what an operator looks like, and what precedence it has  with respect
to all other operators.  This is usually predetermined, at
compiler-generation time.  
-- 
     Gary J. Blair   (510) 422-6675        blair@dancer.llnl.gov
     Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory        
     P.O. Box 808, L-156
     Livermore, CA 94550                  
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.ai.edu,sci.edu,comp.multimedia,misc.education
From: cavrak@emba-news.uvm.edu.UUCP (Steve Cavrak)
Subject: Re:    Computer Based Education : Journal List
Originator: cavrak@newton.emba.uvm.edu
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 12:06:42 GMT


	How about starting a mailing list on the use of computers as
	an education tool in higher education.  My first idea was to
	start a news.group, but maybe it would be better to see if
	people are interested. If so, we can always start an official
	news.group creation procedure and if it passes link in the
	mailing list.

Couple of comments:

comp.edu	- is a perfectly suitable place for a discussion like
	the one suggested.  We don't have to go further than the front
	door.  As a t-shirt I have sez "Just d'Euit". (1)

A bit further out there are several BITNET lists that focus on these
issues

CosnDisc	- Coallition of School Networking 
CSAC-L		- Computing Strategies Across the Curriculum
NewEdu-L	- New Paradigms in Education List

If my memory serves me right, CosnDisc is at BITNIC, CSAC-L is at UVMVM,
and NewEdu-L is at WVUVMD.


Still further out, there is an internetable BBS system called "isaac".
Telnet to isaac.engr.washington.edu.  It's a bit bureaucratic, but
occassionally useful.

Ciao
Steve

(1) EUIT is Educational Uses of Information Technology - an EDUCOM
Project with yearly meetings in Snomall, just before the Seminars on
Academic Computing.

Xref: sparky comp.edu:1569 comp.lang.fortran:3468 comp.lang.misc:2964 comp.arch:9274 sci.math:11106
From: bwallet@apssgi.nswc.navy.mil (Brad Wallet)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 8 Sep 92 12:08:47 GMT
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center

In article <1992Sep3.173311.10441@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.X. Saunders ) writes:
|> 	Um, no.  Software engineering is a practice that should be applied
|> by a good programmer, but it is not a separate discipline.

Programming is a skill needed by software engineers.  Software engineering
is as much a seperate discipline as is industrial engineering.

-------------------------------------------------
Brad Wallet                 Mathematician
bwallet@relay.nswc.navy.mil Naval Surface Warfare Center
(703)663-4950               (AVN)249-4950
DSMAC - "Tomahawk's Eyes"
"I can neither confirm nor deny that these opinions
are entirely my own and may or may not reflect those
of the US Navy."
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: collaborative work
Date: 5 Sep 1992 13:51:48 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

gus@prism.gatech.EDU (gus Baird) writes:
>It depends on the objective of the exercise.  If you're in a lower-division
>course where the objective is learning the basic skills, then group projects
>are counterproductive. [...]

It depends on how you organize and supervise the groups.  I agree that if you
leave them to their own devices each person will do what s/he already knows
best.  But there's a lot of research literature about how to avoid that.  For
example, you figure out subtasks, such as (in the case of programming) making
up test data, preparing program documentation, etc.  Then you do several
projects and you insist that the students rotate the tasks so that everyone
does everything once.  Another technique is to offer bonus points if every
member of the group improves on the next test (compared to that person's
previous test); that encourages the better students in the group to teach
the others, instead of doing everything themselves.

The trouble I've had is that it's very hard to do this kind of cooperative
organization in a large class, where I don't really work directly with
students at all, but only through teaching assistants.  Another thing I
read in the literature is that you should expect a few frustrating years
while you're learning how to make cooperative learning work well, and
indeed I'm experiencing some of that.
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: denbeste@enigma.bgsu.edu (William C DenBesten)
Subject: VMS Class accounts
Followup-To: poster
Originator: denbeste@enigma
Reply-To: denbeste@enigma.bgsu.edu
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:59:27 GMT

We have a VMS VAX that our students use.  Currently, our students have a
separate login for each class.  These accounts have mechanically generated
names.  These accounts are automatically destroyed after the end of the
semester.  We are looking for a better way.  Ideally, we would like to have
permanent accounts for students.

The ideal scheme will meet the following criteria:
* Each student needs an area to work that is visible to the teacher
* Each class needs an area the teacher can use to share files with students
* Privacy needs to be maintained to the greatest extent possible for the
  student's files
* A student may be simultaneously taking multiple classes
* A teacher may be simultaneously be teaching multiple classes.
* A class may have multiple teachers.
* Multiple sections of a class may need to be kept separate
* Multiple sections of a class may need to be combined
* It should be possible to easily send mail to all students in a class.
* The scheme should be extensible university wide.

If you have set up a system for creating accounts that meet many of these
criteria, I would be very interested in receiving a description of how your
system works, and an indication of your (and your users') general satisfaction
with the scheme.
-- 
William C. DenBesten is denbeste@bgsu.edu or denbesten@bgsuopie.bitnet
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math,misc.education
From: art@world.std.com (Al Thompson)
Subject: Re: Preparation for programming
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
	<1992Sep04.222529.29814@digibd.com> <Bu5qxv.Gn0@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 19:38:34 GMT

In article <Bu5qxv.Gn0@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

   In article <1992Sep04.222529.29814@digibd.com> rhealey@dellr4.digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes:
   >In article <BtwJGC.1F1@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, ceblair@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Charles Blair) writes:

   >	Data gathering skills, observation skills, statistical analysis
   >	of data taken skills. All needed in many programming areas
   >	where you are controlling or monitoring something. How do you
   >	construct a test to see if your code handles all inputs with
   >	proper outputs? Experience in labs can help with this skill even
   >	though on the surface it seems like a stretch.

   Experience may or may not help.  Experience with routine problems is of
   limited utility, and that is what one gets in undergraduate lab science
   courses.  Much of the lab experience would be just as effective if it
   were videotaped.

Now just a darned minute there!  I have a Ph.D. in biophysics and I can
categorically state the opposite.  My undergraduate chemistry, biology
and physics labs equipped with me a set of techniques and skills that I
have used throughout my career.  No video tape could have taught me what
it was like to make careful weighings on an analytical balance, none
could have taught me what it was like to be alert to the subtle
differences in color that occur just as an indicator is getting ready to
change color.  And so on.  Sorry, there is no way you can be an effective
lab scientist without that hands on experience.  Of course I haven't even
mentioned the safety issues...labs are some of the more dangerous places
you can hang out.

Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.misc
From: amitp@rice.edu (Amit J. Patel)
Subject: Re: Programmers
Originator: amitp@aten.cs.rice.edu
Reply-To: amitp@owlnet.rice.edu
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:27:38 GMT


In article <1992Sep10.043815.4175@linus.mitre.org>, crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:
|> 
|> >- Continuations and continuation-passing style.
|> >
|> >- Macros: hygienic expansion.
|> >
|> >- Time pre-emption and light weight processes.
|> 
|> Did you perhaps omit anything?  No assembly language, compound data structures,
|> algorithms, architecture, operating systems, databases, logic, discrete math,
|> or theory (machines, grammars, etc)?

Yes, he omitted a lot of stuff.  We do have courses in algorithms,
architecture, operating systems, logic, discrete math, and theory.
I don't know of any database courses though.

|> >A person that understands the above concepts can design or implement
|> >any programming language. Furthermore, they can code an algorithm in
|> >any existing programming language efficiently. Finally, learning any
|> >new language amounts essentially to learning a new syntax.
|> 
|> Nah.  Prolog is fundamentally different than scheme (the preferred Rice PL,
|> I've heard).  Knowing scheme and (for example) C will _not_ lead to an 
|> immediate understanding of Smalltalk or APL.  

I agree!  Languages have different philosophies behind them, and just
looking at new syntax doesn't teach you why things are done the way 
they are, or how to do things in that language.

		Amit

--
Amit J Patel,
I think I'm a student at Rice University
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1544 comp.lang.fortran:3439 comp.lang.misc:2941 comp.arch:9241 sci.math:11027
From: richieb@bony1.bony.com (Richard Bielak)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:34:32 GMT
Organization: multicellular

Someone said earlier in this thread that "It is easier to teach a
physics student to program, than it is to teach CS student physics."

This is just the kind of thing a physicist would say :-).

A computer scientist would say that "It is easier to teach physics to
a CS student, than it is to teach a physics student to program."


...richie
-- 
* Richie Bielak   (212)-815-3072   | "Your brain is a liquid-cooled parallel  *
* Internet:       richieb@bony.com | super-computer". He pointed to his nose, *
* Bang {uupsi,uunet}!bony1!richieb | "This is the fan."                       *
*    - Strictly my opinions -      |                     - David Chudnovsky - *
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1673 comp.lsi.cad:953
From: reid@ss6.cps.msu.edu (Dr Richard J. Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lsi.cad
Subject: Re: Real-Time Karnaugh available.
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:12:45 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Michigan State University

A statically-linked version is now also available.
It is in compressed format.

Sorry about the trouble I caused you all with the
dynamically linked version.

Dick
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
From: mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel)
Subject: Re: User-Defined Operators (was: Scientists as Programmers (was: Small Language Wanted))
Followup-To: comp.lang.misc
Organization: Department of Chemistry, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:49:32 GMT


Note that I have redirected followups to comp.lang.misc.  I fail to see
the relevance of this discussion to the other newsgroups mentioned;
certainly it has little to do with mathematics.

In article <9225915.145@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU
(Fergus James HENDERSON) writes:
>mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald) writes:
>>kirchner@uklira.informatik.uni-kl.de (Reinhard Kirchner) writes:
>>>Take Pascal-XSC. It is available on all unix machines since it compiles to
>>>standard C. It allows users to define operators monadic and dyadic, and it
>>>comes with many of them for interval, vector, matrix, complex etc.
>>>computations.
>>
>>However, the results will be no faster .... and almost surely slower,
>>than simply coding in C.
>
>Why "almost surely slower" than C?

     Automatic source translation to a high-level language almost never
generates code that a human would have written.  Since compilers and
optimizers are tested almost entirely with human-written code, it is
very likely that machine-translated code will break optimizer
assumptions.  At best, this means that the code will run more slowly
than a program written directly in the eventual compilation language; at
worst, this exposes compiler and optimizer bugs which a compiler vendor
will be reluctant to look at due to the obtuseness of the code.
     For an example of this sort of thing, consult the June 1992 issue
of the Hewlett-Packard journal.  Their Fortran optimizing preprocessor
(which does Fortran->Fortran source translation) uncovered some bugs in
both the compiler front end and in the optimizer for the reasons stated
above.

                                Sincerely,

				Marc R. Roussel
                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.theory,comp.databases.theory
From: tk@faui63.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Kirsche)
Subject: WANTED: Mr Parnas' e-mail address
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:06:30 GMT
Keywords: parnas e-mail


Hi netters,

I'm looking for Mr Parnas' e-mail address. His current affiliation is:

	McMaster University
	Communications Research Laboratory
	Faculty of Engineering
	1280 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario L85 4K1
	Canada

The address of one of his colleagues would be of help, too.

Thanks in advance,
Thomas
Thomas Kirsche                  kirsche@informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Dept. of Computer Sciences VI   
Database Systems                Phone: intl. + 9131 - 857899
Martensstrasse 3                FAX:   intl. + 9131 - 32090
D-8520 Erlangen
Germany
From: mhw@aber.ac.uk (Matthew John Webster)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Electronic White Boards ?
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:13:16 GMT
Organization: University College of Wales, Aberystwyth

Has any one got any experience with 'Electronic White Boards' in
the school class room or could give me any reference to their use. 
Or for that matter let me know what they are?

I've come across a number of passing references to their use recently, 
but with no real information as to what they are.

Thanks

Matthew
-- 
Matthew Webster, CAA, Old College       Tel.   0970 622125
University College of Wales,            E-mail mhw@uk.ac.aber
Aberystwyth, Wales, SY23 2AX            Fax    0970 622122
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1548 comp.lang.fortran:3444 comp.lang.misc:2945 comp.arch:9244 sci.math:11035