HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:54:10 EDT
Reply-To:     "r. j. harvey" <HARVEYRJ@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         "r. j. harvey" <HARVEYRJ@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      physics problems

this list keeps getting more interesting by the minute!  first walt pirie
launched the charge that people have "abused the priviledge of participation"
by airing comments he apparently found to be not-of-interest, or "lengthy",
and now peter lachenbruch characterizes the recent physics-related discussions
as a "diatribe".  my dictionary calls a "diatribe" a "bitter, abusive
criticism or denunciation".  perhaps I've missed something, but I haven't
seen any evidence of that in any of these physics-related messages.  perhaps
they were long, and perhaps they strained the ability of some list members
to see their relevance to the teaching of statistics (the putative purpose
of this list).  but until the thought-police started holding forth on what
"acceptable" ideas were, I didn't see anything that was critical or
denunciative in this discussion.  indeed, one great benefit of these lists is
that a variety of ideas can be shared, and we can actually stretch our
horizons and deal with ideas and content that we typically do not see in
our day-to-day teaching life.
   I'm all in favor of keeping things as brief as possible, but let's keep
the censorship of ideas off this list!  as long as the topic in any way per-
tains to teaching stat-related content, it's fair game.  hit the "delete"
key if you don't want to read it.

r. j. harvey
psychology
virginia tech
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:28:48 EDT
Reply-To:     Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Physics

This is a statistics net. It's sometimes a struggle, but a worthwhile one to ke
ep up with such an active net. Sometimes it may even get a little political, bu
t that's ok as long as it's the "politics of statistics."
McElwaine has abused the priviledge of participation by subjecting us to a leng
thy monologue on his own pet agenda, unrelated to statistics.
"Give us a break."
From: ELLEN@PACEVM.BITNET (arthur s ellen)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Correcting chi square?
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:50:26 GMT
Reply-To: arthur s ellen <ELLEN@PACEVM.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <ELLEN@PACEVM>


  Trying to explain why we make a correction in a df=1 chi square, I
found myself thinking:      that    the chi square is only a continous
approximation to the exact binomial distribtution. But I was having some
difficulty getting this into a clear readily apprehended explanation.
Does anyone have any suggestions?

------------------------------------------------------
:      ART ELLEN           :  PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENT  :
: BITNET:  ELLEN@PACEVM    :     PACE UNVERSITY      :
:  VOICE:  (212) 346-1506  :       41 PARK ROW       :
:                          : NEW YORK, NY 10038-1502 :
------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 09:36:20 CST
Reply-To:     April Milliken <BIOM030@UNLVM.UNL.EDU>
From:         April Milliken <BIOM030@UNLVM.UNL.EDU>
Subject:      (Something new to discuss...)

I need some help with a consulting problem...I lack in experience (I am a grad
student) and so I would like to hear from "experts".

I am working with a professor in animal science kindly named "Mr. Means".  He
wants to publish correct results, but he seems to have difficulties in under-
standing anything beyond one-way anovas.  Consequently, I have two problems:

1)  The data are biochemical results; the machine (I am told) sometimes fails
    to give a correct result due to lack of solution (or whatever excuse).
    Consequently, Mr. Means went through the data and elminated results that`
    he did not feel were plausible (say a pH value that was higher than the
    rest of the values).  If they are removed, should I remove that observation
    on that animal, or remove the entire animal (keep in mind that only 15
    animals are used in the study)?

2)  This is a perfect example of needing a principal components analysis in
    one area and repeated measures in another.  HOWEVER, this is WAY beyond
    the comprehensive power of Mr. Means.  I ran a PCA and came up with some
    insightful results...yet, I am at a loss as where to go from here -- do I
    push PCA with 8 variables, or do 8 different one-way ANOVAs for Mr. Means?

I hope someone can help me out here.  I am at a loss....I NEED HELP!

Thanks in advance.

April Milliken
Department of Biometry
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
BIOM030@unlvm1.unl.edu

"I may be in Nebraska, but my heart belongs to Kansas State University!"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:14:38 CST
Reply-To:     JOE WARD <1MCJHW@UTSAVM1.BITNET>
From:         JOE WARD <1MCJHW@UTSAVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      TEACHING CORRELATION

I had sent the msg below to Art Ellen.  Since several have responded I thot
 more may be interested in my msg re correlation as cosine of angle. -- Joe

======================================================================== 19
              Wed, 07 Oct 92 16:19:02 CST
From:         JOE WARD <1MCJHW@UTSAVM1>
Subject:      Re: Teaching Correlation, Suggestions?
To:           arthur s ellen <ELLEN@PACEVM>
              Your message of Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:05:13 EDT

Arthur-- I do not know the level of your students.  But for those who really
  are interested in the "correlation coefficient".  The value of r is the
 cosine of the angle between to vectors(or lines for those who shudder at the
  word "vector").  If you look at any trig book then by definition of the
  cosine of angle between two lines, then the value of r lies between
 -1 and +1 inclusive.  -- Joe

  I have been teaching regression and the use of MYSTAT to high school
 students and most of them know about Pythagorean theorem.  So they have a
 "feel" for why the Total Sum of Squares = Regression Sum of Squares +
  Error Sum of Squares.   For those who are interested they can explore the
  trig relations.  -- HOpe this helps.
JOE WARD            arthur s ellen      10/07/92*Teaching Correlation, Suggesti
From: marick@CS.UIUC.EDU (via the vacation program)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: out of town
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:46:23 GMT
Reply-To: "via the vacation program" <marick@CS.UIUC.EDU>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Apparently-To: EDSTAT-L@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu

I am on the road for a while.  I'll read my mail when I return.

Brian Marick
From: jones@REED.EDU (Albyn Jones)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: esoterica, texts, etc.
Date: 11 Oct 92 18:10:00 GMT
Reply-To: Albyn Jones <jones@REED.EDU>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Arnie Kahn <FAC_ASKAHN%JMUVAX.BITNET@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu> asks
1)
>Could messages to edstat-l be confined to issues involving teaching of
>statistics and not envelope problems and other esoteria?  I would like to know,
>as others have discussed, how to best explain correlation to my students.

The envelope problem may sound like esoterica, but it raises basic
issues about statistical inference.  Its a great example to discuss
in a course, as it will generate lots of interest and interaction.
What more could an instructor ask from an example?  It seems
exactly analogous to discussion of "how to explain correlation", you may
get some idea for your courses from either discussion.

While I am at it:  if you have to give a heuristic explanation for
-1 leq r leq 1, for students who don't know what a cosine is, or don't
know the cauchy-schwarz-bunyakovskii inquality (by any subset of those
names %^), why not just explain that for two RV's X, Y, with the same
variance, the magnitude of the covariance is maximum when X = Y?
students seem to be willing to believe this claim, and it is much closer
to a real explanation.

2)
>I also have a question.  Our department, psychology, had been using a text
>which is now out of print, Jim Couch's book.  It was a good book for our
>purposes--not a lot of theory, but a practical guide to understanding given
>data with certain qualifications, what is the appropriate statistical test to
>use.  The text that was adopted this fall I think is inferior.  So, the
>question is, what's a good basic stat text for students who have limited
>mathematical background?
>
>In addition, I'd like a book that doesn't emphasize computational formula.
>The students have a lab and learn to do SPSS.  I, personally at least, see no
>reason for them to learn to compute correlation coefficients or ANOVAs with a
>hand calculator when they have much more powerful tools at their disposal.
>
>So, textbook suggestions?
>
>Arnie

I don't know Couch's book.  How about "Statistics for Experimenters"
by Box, Hunter, and Hunter.  Great book.  not aimed specifically at
psychologists, but the instructor could easily supplement with
examples taken from the psych literature.

albyn jones
jones@reed.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
From: mfdjh@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Dale Hample)
Subject: Re: FACTOR ANALYSIS AND QUANTUM PHYSICS
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:06:24 GMT

I've been reading the thread about Burt/Stephenson/quantum physics with
much interest, perhaps because it all parallels some references I've
been looking at which connect Kurt Lewin's field theory with quantum
physics.  Folks of that era seem to have been pretty broadly educated.
My reason for posting, though, is to wonder if anyone has written a flat
out history of factor analyis that connects it (& related statistical
topics) to physics and other elements of the intellectual context in
which the stats were developed.  I had in mind a book length ms, rather
than just a series of articles.
-- 
Dale Hample                            Dept. Communication A&S
mfdjh@ecnuxa.bitnet                    Western Illinois University
mfdjh@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu                  309-298-1492
        The beatings will continue until morale improves.
From: DMR@PSUVM.BITNET (Dennis Roberts)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Res Meths Courses
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:09:00 GMT
Reply-To: Dennis Roberts <DMR@PSUVM.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments:     208 Cedar Bldg.
Comments:     University Park, PA USA
Comments:     AC 814-863-2401

MS at ECU raised the issue of research methods courses where students
collect data ...  and then run into problems.  Or, instructors run into
problems in that they may be "in over their heads" in many cases.  What to
do?  Well, in the first place, there are far too many courses of this kind
where the course expects the student to think up, plan, collect, analyze,
and then write up.  This opens up the flood gates for bad projects, poor
data, inappropriate analyses, and the like.  This notion that we must have
students "try it all" in one course is brought about by the misconception
that students can get all they need (or departments say that all they will
let their students take) in one course.  Cram it all into research methods!
Well, no wonder what happens, happens.  While it is a lot easier for the
instructor to say to the students "you figure out a project and then collect
and analyze the data", a much better approach is for the instructor to
exercise some CONTROL over this process.  The instructor should do the
selection of topics (maybe a set of 10 that a student can select from) where
the topics are straight forward, are DOABLE, and the instructor is in
command of the techniques to handle the data.  This takes more planning on
the part of the instructor ...  but is inherently better.  I know that
people will say that it is important for the student to think it up on their
own ...  but I say that is not important.  People might argue that students
should be exposed to the "difficulties" of doing studies and analyzing data.
Well, I say that a first experience should be a good one ...  and correct
one ...  to set the stage for the concept being developed that ...  if it is
worth it to do this project, it is worth doing it correctly.  So, with
proper control on the part of the instructor, students first experience can
be good, and lead them in the right direction.  At this level, the topic
makes almost no difference ...  just as long as they understand the prupose
of the project and it makes some sense.  I would also like to say that
research methods courses should be PRECEDED by some work in statistics and
perhapsmeasurement (designing instruments, etc.).  You can't teach all of
this stuff in one research methods course.  Let's err on the side of keeping
the first experience in proper focus and correct ...  even if it does not
set the world on fire.
From: amead@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Alan Mead)
Subject: Re: Res Meths Courses
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:49:10 GMT

I don't know exactly what backgrounds posters here have...  But here
in Psychology at UIUC, we have an undergraduate Research Methods
course (actually we have two, Field and Laboratory Methods).  The
students have to pick a topic, review the literature, collect data,
analyze it and write the report in APA format.

Sounds like too much?

I don't think so.  First, they are generally in small groups (3-4),
although I have one or two students each semester that want to do their
own project.  I review the topic before they start anything and am
available throughout the semester to assist them.  They have to have
had a stats course (manditory for all students) and they are almost all
juniors or seniors.  I teach them APA format and review stats in lab
(there are three of us TAs and the class size is less than 15) and
there is a large lecture where they learn more macro things.  

Finally, the emphasis is on learning rather than producing a perfect
paper.  Ie, they should make their mistakes in my class not in their
first paper to Journal of Applied Psychology.

I really think that the original poster who suggested that DOCTORAL
(?) students shouldn't be forced to do the above (as being too much
work) is selling his or her students short.  Our students don't like
the amount of work, but I'm told that this is the easier of the three
or four lab courses that they could take to fulfill a requirement.

As to doctoral students, in my experience, they are assumed to arrive
with some skills and to start investigations during their first
semester.  This is done in collaboration with a professor and I think
that is where the real teaching is done; things like publishing
research, writing proposals and grants, argueing (or not) with
reviewers,...  But they certainly don't have time for a course like
the one I teach in which they do a "play" study.

Well, just one datum.

-alan mead
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 11:54:35 EDT
Reply-To:     Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Apology

The following just arrived from Jerry Dallal:



In article <1992Oct7.094306.430@hnrc.tufts.edu>, jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu (Jerry
Dallal) writes:
> The fact that this paradox can stir up such heated discussion and emotions
> among *teahcers* of statistics speaks volumes about why so many students are
> poorly taught.
>

An important clarification:  Let no one get the mistaken impression that this
is a personal attack (veiled or otherwise) on Walt Pirie.  I mean the words
as they stand (well, "teahcers" should have been "teachers").  If the teachers
of statistics are having a hard time agreeing on the solution to this paradox,
then how can they be teaching the subject in a way that would allow their
students to reach a consensus?  The only excuse would be if there were *no*
solution.  But there *is* a solution (ok, many--frequentist, Bayesian, etc.,
but each is straightforward once a philosophy is adopted).  Therefore, the
lack of agreement among teachers speaks poorly of the profession.
End of Jerry's note.


Apparently Jerry interprets my attempts at humor on the envelope problem
as "heated" arguments. Quite the contrary, I enjoy these probability
dilemmas immensely and was just trying to interject a humoristic sense
about how we get tied up by them.
My apologies to Jerry and anyone else who misinterpreted my efforts and
took umbrage.
Walt Pirie
Stat, Va Tech
From: WENDELL@UHCCVX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU (John Wendell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: correcting Chi-quare
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:26:46 GMT
Reply-To: John Wendell <WENDELL@UHCCVX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mail-System-Version: <VAX-MM(235)+TOPSLIB(133)+PONY(228)
                     @UHCCVX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>

I'm not sure why Chi-square is being used to approximate the binomial
when the _exact_ binomial distribution can be derived from the
F distribution anyway. See "Just say no to binomial (and other
discrete distributions) tables," american statistician Feb 1992 p. 53
Aloha - John WENDELL@uhccvx.uhcc.hawaii.edu
P.S. that goes for the normal approximation as well.
-------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:53:00 PDT
Reply-To:     "Peter A. Lachenbruch" <IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
From:         "Peter A. Lachenbruch" <IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      long messages

Dear fellow estaters -
The abuse of our patience and interests by the recent physics diatribe leads me
to suggest the following:
We voluntarily limit ourselves to about 300 words (about 1 typed page) for any
messages. This would include any quotations, etc. from previous messages. It wo
uld limit the amount of material we must wade through to get to the essence of
the message. I am aware that some material would be lost, but an alternative
method could be devised: for example, the sender could indicate he/she has mate
rial that they would mail to those who were interested. This is done partially
now.
If this isn't done, we may be facing mandatory limits.

Tony Lachenbruch
From: IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET (Peter A. Lachenbruch)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: federal support for statistical software
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:11:00 GMT
Reply-To: "Peter A. Lachenbruch" <IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

The NIH has a SBIR (small business innovation research) grant program which
supports various projects as Paul Thompson is proposing (I hope I got the
sender correct!). These projects are in two phases: phase I is a 6 month
feasibility study and is limited to $50,000 including overhead. Phase II is
up to 3 years for a total of $500,000. You must be a small business and the
president of the company must be employed at least 50% time by the company.
The program STATXACT was funded this way, as was EGRET. I suspect that a
new general purpose package would not get a warm reception, but there are a
lot of special purpose packages that are proposed, and some even get funded in
this day of tight budgets. The NIH MUST spend 1.25% of its budget on these
projects by congressional mandate. I've reviewd a lot of these and they range
from outstanding to abysmal. These are the R43 (phase I) and R44 (phase II)
grants.
Tony
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:32:07 -0400
Reply-To:     "Paul A. Thompson" <pat@po.CWRU.Edu>
From:         "Paul A. Thompson" <pat@PO.CWRU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: meta-analysis, WITHIN subjects

>
>I am under the impression that most of the the existing procedures for
>performing meta-analyses assume two IDD groups (control and
>experimental)?
>
>I have means and standard deviations from the same individuals taking
>two forms (paper-and-pencil and computerized) of several tests and I'd
>like to answer the question, Does the computerization affect their
>scores?
>
>Does anyone have a reference for procedures appropriate to
>within-subjects designs?  I have looked at Hedges and Olkins' book, but
>their gain-score procedure isn't applicable (my means aren't gain
>scores).
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>-alan mead
>
>
Please don't do a meta-analysis.  This is a simple multivariate repeated
measures design.  Either take differences and do a Hotelling's T2, or
use a multivariate doubly-repeated measures design.  These are standard
approaches.

--
Paul Thompson, Ph.D.  |  Department of Psychiatry  |  (216) 844-7463
Case Western Reserve University  | Cleveland, OH  44106
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I hear "family values," I reach for my revolver. - para. Hans Jonst
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:24:01 EDT
Reply-To:     Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Envelope

Jerry Dallal just sent:


(Walt pirie) writes:
> Jerry (excitable) Dallal asked me for a rando m variable. Choose an answer
you
> like:
> 1. There are no random variables. It's all deterministic from the start.
There'
> s only lack of information.
> 2. Sure, I've got lots of random variables. Which would you like? How about:
> let X=1 if the envelope chosen has the larger amount and X=0 if the smaller
amo
> unt. Assume a dist'n of 1/2-1/2. Now open the envelope and observe the amount
(
> say, $100). What information has been learned about the random variable X? To
a
>  frequentist, none that I can discern.
>
> Walt Pirie
> Stat, Va Tech


Then you can't condition on it and there's no paradox.  Great!
End of Jerry's transmission.

Response: Of course you can condition on it, and there's no paradox.
Great.
Response2: No fair Jerry. You asked and I gave you the only random
variable of any relevance at all in the problem (To a frequentist, that
is).Then you rejected it. That's cheating.
Oh, that other random variable whose observed value happens to be $100?
Other than as a scale factor it's not relevant to the problem.
After all, the problem is really about finding "k", where
E(gain)=k(envelope content). Envelope content conveys no information
about k so $100 is irrelevant(except when it's in my pocket.)
Since envelope content is the only extant information, there is no useful
conditioning information available for finding k.

Walt Pirie
Stat, Va Tech
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU