HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dchapman@well.sf.ca.us (Dave Chapman)
Subject: Re: Prop. 13 and California's fiscal crisis
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 08:05:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.000936.27641@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.215343.22479@nas.nasa.gov>, dbailey@wk49.nas.nasa.gov (David H. Bailey) writes:
>
>  Sigh. Some people just don't get it. The problem with tying property
>taxes with "Current Market Rate" is that the goverment is not providing
>any more services for that increased rate (not that I want them to even
>if they hypothetically did). What on earth is _fair_ about this? Sounds
>like a perversion of the word to me. 
>
>> PREMISE: Only Prop. 13 can protect limited income homeowners such as
>> the elderly from unexpected increases in property tax, increases that
>> they may not be able to afford.

Whatever else may be true, the voters in California agreed with this
premise when they voted for prop 13.  Because the voters are superior*
to the state legislature, prop 13 can only be repealed by another 
proposition.  All recent polls show that prop 13 would be re-affirmed
by over 60% of the voters.  Why do you think this is?

-dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------
* more honest, more sensible, and a lot better looking


Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: dboddy@pulsar.lrmsc.loral.com (Dave Boddy 5973)
Subject: Re: Prop. 13 and California's fiscal crisis
Organization: Loral Rolm Mil-Spec Computers
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:48:36 GMT

Article 23419 of ca.politics:
From: megana@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Megan Adams)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:34:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Prop. 13 and California's fiscal crisis
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: ca.politics

>Another effect of prop 13 is to drive young wage earners out of state. Why?
>Because why buy a house here when you will pay ten times the property tax
>of the rich old geezer down the street who bought his house back in the 
>early 70's. 

>Grossly unfair. 

>(On a call-in radio show I heard several people who were planning to move 
>make the above argument.)

>megana.

  The disparity in property tax rates is not between young and old.  Its
  between those who purchase a house and live in it for a long time and
  those who choose to invest their equity by buying and selling several
  times.

  Paying several thousand dollars for a 30 year old house that cost $7,000
  new -- THAT's grossly unfair!

 
-- 
Life is too short...is Not...is Too...is NOT...is TOO...is
DoD # 0677   (408) 432-5973  dboddy@pulsar.lrmsc.loral.com
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ca.environment,ba.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: "Ecofascists" In Action
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 01:59:50 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Keywords: Pollution, Volunteerism, Environment

In article <p028tt0@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
    >In article <h2=nrt-.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil
    >Ronzone) writes:
    >
    >>So, 1. Put the property in private ownership. 2. Sue anybody
    >>that fucks with your property. This requires a system of
    >>justice of course where the "sue-ee" does not coercively own
    >>the court system.
    >>
    >I see one major problem with this.... If you put the property
    >in private ownership, that owner will fuck up the bay without
    >anyone taking them to task.
    >
    >Can you think of a single group which could afford to buy the
    >bay who would be concerned with the wildlife around the bay,
    >the quality of the water in the bay, other people polluting
    >the bay?

I think you are missing the major point. The problem is the lack of
ownership of ALL land -- the so-called "public" land is really
(effectively) unowned. There is nobody to take a proprietary interest,
and nobody to be held responsible for problemns with it.


-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: The Concord Principles
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:56:46 GMT
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <9208242245.AA15895@echidna.swdc.stratus.com>
 by lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Len Bucuvalas):

:   *Ninth*, the new democracy tool box applies to recognizing
: shareholder democracy as well.  Whether large, small or institutional
: shareholders (such as pension or other trust funds), the separation
: of ownership (of the company) from control has been documented
: impressively, starting with the celebrated study by Berle and Means
: fifty years ago.  The business press is filled with reports of
: executives of large corporations repeatedly abusing shareholder
: assets and worker morale with huge salaries, bonuses, greenmail, and
: golden parachutes, (untied to company performance), self-perpetuating
: boards of directors, the stifling of the proxy voting system and
: blocking other shareholder voting reforms such as cumulative voting
: powers and access to relevant shareholder lists and information.  The
: owners of corporations should be able to prevent their hired
: executives from engaging in what "Business Week" called casino
: capitalism that often ends with mass layoffs, loyal shareholders
: losses and communities undermined.

The solution to this is so simple it's painful.  *_Stop_buying_stocks._*

:   *Tenth*, the new democracy tool box needs to be taught in its
: historic context and present relevance as part of an engrossing civic
: curriculum for our countrys schoolchildren.

Whoa, wait a minute.  NOW Ralphie wants to indoctrinate YOUR KIDS.
With YOUR MONEY.

This is great.  First he complains that citizens don't have control over
how their taxes are spent, then he comes up with this mess. 

: In conclusion, these tools for democracy have fairly common
: characteristics.  They are universally accessible, can reduce
: government and other deficits, and are voluntary to use or band
: together around.

I'd like for someone to point out to me where in this mess was something
voluntary, other than the voluntary specific tax contribution to Nader's
organization.

With a few exceptions, which I believe I commented on favorably,
everything in here is simply an attempt at redirecting govt force,
rather than actually reducing it.

But then, I hadn't really expected anything better.  In fact, I'm
surprised I liked as much as I did.

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
    -- Albert Einstein
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: jsb@jack.sns.com (Jim Best)
Subject: Politically correct
Organization: Systems'n'Software
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 16:19:33 GMT



                     *The Liberal left strikes again*

                           FROM TIME MAGAZINE
                            JULY 6,1992 ISSUE

        Lost in Space: Common Sense

        POLITICAL  CORRECTNESS  HAS INVADED SPACE!  NASA AND  THE
        EUROPEAN  SPACE  AGENCY  have  buckled  under  fussbudget
        accusations that Buck Rogers terminology is sexist.  As a
        result, NASA will no longer refer to "manned" flights but
        will  describe  the missions as "habitated" and  "crewed"
        and  "uncrewed".  Says a NASA spokesman:  :"WE HAVE  BEEN
        ORDERED  TO  DELETE ANY REFERENCE BY SEX, ON THE  GROUNDS
        THAT  "MANNED"  FLIGHT  IS CRUDE AND "CREWED"  IS  *PC*".
        Even so sociologist are still not satisfied.  They prefer
        "space  flight  by human beings." FEMALE ASTRONAUTS  FIND
        THESE  LINGUISTIC  AEROBICS FOOLISH.  Says one:   "COMMON
        SENSE IS THE VICTIM OF ALL THIS RHETORIC."


___________________________________________________________________________
                                   \ /        \  /
I had a seat in the very first row +-------------+ 
I heard it all on my radio         | 0 -(....) 0 |    uunet!jack!jsb
                                   +-------------+                         
___________________________________________________________________________


Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
From: andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest)
Subject: Re: Automatic Gas shutoffs
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:20:59 GMT

In article <14403@auspex-gw.auspex.com> tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.004759.17271@morrow.stanford.edu>, 
>andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest) writes:
>> I've seen these valves exhibited at a few meetings and earthquake fairs.
>> You can easily reset the valve yourself as long as you are capable of
>> relighting your appliances safely.  The assumption is that most people
>> are not capable of this and thus they reccommend that you have the gas
>> company come out and do it.  The valve itself is easier to reset than
>> the average stopcock.
>
>I know this is probably not a very popular position, but, I don't
>think that I want an automatic shutoff on my gas.  After going
>through the San Fernando Quake, and then the Loma Prieta quake
>I have come to the conclusion that in general, it isn't
>a good idea to shut off the gas if there are no gas leaks.

I should point out that I was not actually taking a position on the use
of automatic shut off valves.  I've seen them, they are interesting
devices, but if they shut your gas off, as this poster pointed out, you
could be in for a long wait before the utility company can relight
your appliances.

Andy
Xref: sparky ca.earthquakes:1006 sci.geo.geology:1841
From: johnk@gordian.com (John Kalucki)
Subject: Re: Seismology Tests in N. CA
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 01:58:55 GMT

In article <gate.3ksDqB1w165w@cdmg-hq.UUCP>, tcsmith@cdmg-hq.UUCP (Ted Smith) writes:
>The following press release from the U.S. Geological Survey Western
>Region Public Affairs Office [(415) 329-4000] appeared this morning:
>
>USGS TO CONDUCT INSTRUMENT CALIBRATION EXERCISE IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA
>QUAKE AREA
>
>[...]
>
>The advantage in recording the induced seismic waves, over the naturally
>occurring aftershocks that continue to rock the area is that scientists
>will know exactly when and where the induced wave was generated.
>          ^^^^^^^ ^^^^

How will time be calibrated and syncronized for the event? WWV? Or will
all of the seismographs be assembled in a big room, syncronized, and
then moved out to the field?

			-John Kalucki
			johnk@gordian.com
From: lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
Subject: Re: Hurricane Andrew's Warning
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:48:28 GMT
Reply-To: lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell)
Distribution: ca
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA
Originator: daemon@sword.eng.pyramid.com

In article <1992Aug28.071926.9817@cco.caltech.edu> garyf@cco.caltech.edu (Gary Fuller) writes:
> 
>Prepare.  Set up plans for communication and meeting places with
>those you love.  Set aside supplies and don't count on anything
>beyond what you have.
>
   And get an extra pair of good walking shoes, a hidey hole, and a
   couple shopping carts so you can carry your loot away faster.

   [Ok, I know that was in poor taste, but it's Friday....and I
   recall seeing some looters in Fla getting busted cause they were
   too stupid to pick only items they could get away with
   rapidly...]
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
From: andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest)
Subject: Re: What is it about Chile?
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 07:47:27 GMT

In article <64865@cup.portal.com> Renee@cup.portal.com (Renee Linda Roberts) writes:
>Faults are different, with a few other factors thrown in, like volcanic
>activity. I believe that the Chilean mountain ranges are relatively young,
>uplifts, and therefore would be more likely to have quakes of that magnitude,
>and duration. Even larger quakes (8.0 are somewhat common there).
I don't know if I would call 8's common in Chile, but the rest is
correct.  Chile is along a subduction zone that produced the largest
earthquake in instrumental history in 1960.  I can't remember the
latest magnitude for it at the moment.

I think the original question had to do with a relatively small
earthquake being felt fairly fair away.  There are usually three
reasons that can explain this:

1) an area of low attenuation.  For instance on the east coast of
the US earthquakes of a given magnitude are felt farther away than
on the west coast.  However, I doubt this is the case for Chile.

2) a deep earthquake.  Deep earthquakes are generally felt over
a wide area because a wide area is not close to the earthquake but
relatively close compared to the epicenter (as the epicenter isn't
even really close to the hypocenter).  This could be the case because
subduction zones do produce deep earthquakes.

3) the magnitude is really higher than reported.

For the original case I didn't know what had happenned so I didn't
respond, but as it reappeared I thought I would list the possibilities
that spring to mind.

Andy
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
From: karn@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Subject: Re: Automatic Gas shutoffs
Reply-To: karn@chicago.qualcomm.com
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:47:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.173212.14574@odin.corp.sgi.com>, rodman@pkr.asd.sgi.com (Paul Rodman) writes:
|> made by Koso International, Santa Fe Springs that sounds much nicer and is
|> reset the same way. They trip at about a 5.0 quake.

If a 5.0 magnitude quake happens in San Francisco, and I have one of
these devices installed on my house in San Diego, will it trip?

It seems to be very common to confuse earthquake intensity and
magnitude.  When talking about the local effects on a given structure,
you want to use one of the intensity scales (the Modified Mercalli
scale is the most common), NOT the Richter magnitude scale. The latter
is used to describe the total size of an earthquake, not the effect on
any given location. The difference is like that between the absolute
and the relative magnitude of a star. The latter describes how bright
it is to you, while the former says how much total energy the star
emits.

Phil
From: bverreau@netcom.COM (stargazer)
Subject: Geiser Periodicity
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 15:08:54 GMT
Organization: Armchair Seismologoists
Summary: in hot water now
Reply-To: bverreau@netcom.COM (stargazer)
Distribution: ca

There was an item on the news last night about a new study to be
published in _Science_ concerning a possible correlation between
large earthquakes and changes in geothermal activity with respect
to geysers, in particular.  Beg pardon, but is there anything really
new here?  I can remember visiting Yellowstone when they were talking
about changes in the periodicity of "Old Faithful" before and after
the Lake Hegdon quake ['59?].

What really makes it amusing is the fact that they were using the
Calistoga geyser as an example of predictive geothermal activity.
It supposedly showed a marked decrease in eruptive frequency for
several months before and after Loma Prieta.  I have seen this
particular geyser and came away with the impression that it was
more of an engineered than a natural phenomenon.  It appears to be
capped by a manmade fumarole, and behind some bushes in the adjacent
parking lot - you pay admission to see it - I noted the presence of
some decidedly manmade steam pipes and valves.  Oh, I suppose there
is a real geyser there somewhere, but I bet it's getting some "help"
to make for a better show.

The TV report included the usual disclaimer by a USGS spokesman [a
well-groomed Allan Lindh?] that scientists don't really understand
enough about the phenomenon in order to use it as a basis for
earthquake prediction, etc., etc.  Still, it might be worth looking
up the article ...

Bernie Verreau					bverreau@netcom.COM
Netcom - Online Communication Services 		Redwood City, CA
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
From: andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest)
Subject: Re: Moving to San Mateo, but where?
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:33:30 GMT

In article <715206259.5.demoinfo@mail.psi.net> david_coursey@infoworld.com writes:
>I am in the process of being transferred to San Mateo and am looking for 
>a place to live.
>
>One of my concerns in making the move is that while tornados don't 
>frighten me at all (people who get killed in tornados usually did 
>something -- like drive -- which prompted their demise), earthquakes 
>scare me more than a bit. (If you're not afraid of 'quakes but wouldn't 
>want to move into tornado alley you can appreciate -- in reverse -- my concerns.)
>
>Anyway, I would appreciate guidance about choosing a place to live, 
>probably within 8-10 miles of San Mateo (south toward Menlo Park and 
>Palo Alto) and especially all the secrets a Texan couldn't be expected 
>to know.

You could start by getting USGS Map MF-709 "Maps Showing Maximum
Earthquake Intensity Predicted in the Southern San Francisco Bay Region,
California, For Large Earthquakes on the San Andreas and Hayward Faults."
by Borcherdt, Gibbs, and Lajoie

Also Maps I-1257 G, H, and I would be interesting as they cover 
just San Mateo County for Shaking, Liquefaction Potential, and Damage
Potential.

However, the most important factor is not where you live but the
construction of the home you are living in.  One to two story wood framed
houses that are bolted to their foundations are very safe.  If you also
bolt the hot water heater in then you will prevent a common source of
fires after earthquakes.  When you get here look in the front of the 
phone book for information on earthquake safety.

Maps are available from 1-800-USA-MAPS.

Andy
From: weiss@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss)
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
Subject: Re: Running out of the building
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:19:19 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles

When the 6/28 quakes hit, I woke up almost immediately (the P-wave rattled my
bedroom door, and somehow I've managed to train myself to get fully awake
when that happens).  I woke my girlfriend up (she was spending the weekend at
my place) and then proceded to look around for things that might fall.  My
bed is right under a window (one of those 2 foot high bedroom deals), and I
was concerned about it breaking.  Upon closer reexamination of the room, I
realized that the bulk of it was in danger of being covered by a falling
bookcase.  That especially concerned me, since it appeared that the motion was
along the short dimension of the bookcase.  Finally, we ended up wrapping up
in the comforter to protect us from any falling glass (it is extremely unlikely
that glass would shoot down at the angle required to hit us, and falling glass
would only rain down on us, not stab us).

At no time did I feel the desire to leave.  It seemed like a foolish thing to
do at the time, especially when the power went out.  It would be pitch black
outside, and no power indicated the possibility of downed lines in the immediate
vicinity.  NOT a good idea.
--
\ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | /
-  Michael  weiss@seas.ucla.edu   |  School of Engineering & Applied Science  -
-   Weiss   izzydp5@oac.ucla.edu  |   University of California, Los Angeles   -
/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \
From: cowen@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
Subject: The Next Big Quake
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:59:46 GMT
Reply-To: cowen@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

I can certainly fill in the Quakes of 1892. These are conventionally listed
as 6+, but of course no-one knows because they hit before there were
intensity scales or more than a couple of seismographs in N. California.
These two quakes were not on any recognized fault: they hit the Vacaville/
Winters/Dixon area of Solano and Yolo Counties, just east of the Coast
Ranges, but the earthquake was felt from Redding to Santa Cruz, Merced,
and eastward into Nevada. Every brick structure in the three little towns
was badly damaged: many structures that were weakened in the first shock on
April 19 fell down in the second on April 21. We reckon that the damage
warrants IX on the Mercalli scale, fully comparable with the Coalinga
quake of 198? Only one person was killed, but the total population of the
three towns at the time totalled about 2000 (it's now close to 100,000!).

Here are some quotable quotes:
"Men, women, and children ran terror-stricken...many miraculous escapes.."
(Sacramento Bee)
"Devastation in Dixon..." (San Francisco Examiner)
"Vacaville....suffers an almost irreparable loss..." (San Francisco Examiner)
"Every brick structure....destroyed or torn asunder." (SF Examiner)
"Great cracks in the road...immense boulders...thrown with mighty force
down the hills..." (Sacramento Bee)
"Vacaville a crumbling mass of ruins from one end to another..." (San
Francisco Examiner)

These headlines and comments are not sensationalized. In fact, it was clear
at the time, and even more in retrospect, that all the newspapers except
the Sacramento Bee tried to downplay the earthquakes, for economic and
political reasons. The emphasis was on fast rebuilding, in precisely the
same style of building that had failed so dramatically. The fire insurance
companies sent out agents to persuade people to rebuild in brick, not in
earthquake-safe wood (less fire risk, you see).

All this, and more, including a self-guided tour to the surviving cracked
dangerous buildings, is in
         "The Quakes of '92"
published by Seismic Press, 2223 Butte Place, Davis, California 95616.
100 large pages, $12.95 plus tax (post-paid), total $13.88.

CAVEAT EMPTOR (or caveant emptores, I hope): I AM affiliated with Seismic
Press, and the book is written by Richard Cowen and Janice Cooper
(geologists) and Richard Cooper (historian). The thought that this entry
would result in financial profit is laughable: our project is for fun and,
we hope, public education, and the prospect of profit is remote.

We do treat recent research, published and unpublished, that identifies
the source of these 1892 quakes as a "blind thrust" underlying the east
side of the Great Valley, perhaps stretching southward from our area 
beyond Coalinga. But this is a book for the intelligent lay person, not
the professional seismologist.

Richard Cowen
From: willing@pantheon.icsl.ucla.edu (Scott Willingham)
Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes
Subject: Re: was there a quake out by lax???
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:58:40 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <7963@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> andre@crowe.seas.ucla.edu
  (Andre Stechert) writes:
>
>	You're not alone.  My two roommates and I felt that "quake" or
>whatever it was as well.  Where we were (Palms) it felt like someone had
>run into the building with a big truck.  After reading this newsgroup for
>three months, I was convinced it was a P-wave from a huge earthquake until
>the earthquake didn't come.  It was just a short but strong snap out here.
>If anyone else felt it or if anyone knows what it was please post!
>
>	Joe

I felt a single sharp jolt too in the Mar Vista area.  Very strange.  I
would guess that maybe it was a sonic boom.  I vaguely recall a short
reference an earthquake on the news, but I wasn't paying much attention.

-- Scott Willingham // willing@icsl.ucla.edu
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Newsgroups: ca.earthquakes