HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: Thursday, 31 December 1992 08:47:37 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Cutting it off (was: A few facts about circumcision)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Distribution: world

In <1992Dec31.042213.2523@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)  wrote:
# 
# In article <1992Dec30.210135.19604@jmb2.jmb.com> lewism@jmb2.jmb.com (Mike Lewis) writes:
# >The One and Only (jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
# >: 
# >: It is hard for us to let continue a practice with no good reason that involves
# >: a non-consenting third party.  It would be a totally different matter if
# >: the decision were your's about your body.

  Looking for a little clarification here.  (BTW, is there a mouse in
  your pocket?)  I'm beginning to wonder what your agenda is, what
  with your "hard for us to let continue a practice" (whew!) line.
  Are you, perchance, proposing to make (childhood?) circumcision
  illegal? This certainly has plenty of precedent, by the way, so
  don't be embarassed to let us in on the secret.

# >Frankly, it's none of your business, unless it crosses the line into child
# >abuse.  Here's hoping it stays none of your business in the future.
# 
# Child abuse is much closer to the issue.

  Beginning to sound like you do want to ban it.

# >As far as circumcision is concerned, I guess I'm "on the fence".  However, I
# >definitely don't believe that you (and "us") have the right to impose your
# >views on others.
# 
# Can you explain why child abuse is my (or anyone's) business where I can impose
# my views (child protection) and circumcision is not?

  I think this thread has been done to death, unless you want to come
  right out and say that you're proposing prosecution of parents who
  circumcise their kids.  Nobody has suggested that any children be
  circumcised against their parents' wishes, and there haven't been
  any new contraindications posted for a LONG time.  So it comes down
  to one of two possibilities:

  1) It's up to the parents, who've heard all sorts of reasons why
     they shouldn't circumcise and have to decide on their own, or
  2) They can't be trusted with the decision, in which case -- what?

  If #1, then could we drop this thread?  If #2, why don't you come
  right out and say so, along with enough implementation details to
  let us discuss the idea.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: riggle@adobe.com (Kathleen Riggle)
Subject: Re: WRAP UP:"I don't want to be a scrooge"
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:32:59 GMT

In article <gfBVV9W00iV4A31mMb@andrew.cmu.edu> jm5p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Judi Mancuso) writes:
>
>Hi.
>Many of you may recall my post of  a few weeks ago regarding my MIL and
>her demands on our Xmas schedules and my husband's "hate" for the
>holiday season and our son's anticipation of our own traditions.  The
>response from this group reached the triple digits--about 150 in all! 
>
[most of post deleted]

>Anyway, after some discusson on this
>topic we realized that I never asked him what HE wanted to do--and I was
>pretty suprised by his response.  Because he works 1/2 day on Xmas Eve,
>he wants to be able to come home, hang out with the kids, put the baby
>down for a nap, send our oldest off to do something quiet and then he
>and I can enjoy a holiday drink together, quietly (maybe listen to
>music, watch the tree)---his rationale is that things are just TOOOOO
>hectic and he needs some "quiet and peace" in order not to "loose it"
>later on.  Then, he wants to go to his mother's for an early dinner
>(maybe at 5:30) and enjoy HIS family instead of "hear about everyone's
>schedules" then open gifts and return home by 8:30 so that we can
>unwind, settle the baby and get ready for the wave that will hit the
>house at 10 p.m.(our annual Xmas Eve celebration).  He says that the
>reason why he just hates this whole thing is that he wants to enjoy his
>holidays but he isn't "allowed" because everyone is "in his face" about
>what they want/need/have to do /where they have to be or whatever.  He


>Since he never really told me what HE wanted to
>do---and how he feels that if he has this "quiet" time instead of a
>constant whirlwind, he will be happier and enjoy the holidays instead of
>hate them--and I think his agenda is a nice comprimise, I told him to

I'm glad you and your husband (and family) reached a compromise.  What
you said about your husband feeling that he doesn't get a say is
interesting.  I'm reading a book now called "Unplug the Christmas
Machine: A Complete Guide to Putting Love and Joy Back into the Season
by Jo Robinson and Jean Coppock Staeheli.  I haven't finished it, but
there is an entire chapter on how men are usually left out of the
preparations and if they are included, it's only to be ordered to
do this and go there and get that.  It mentioned that men can be
interested in the season, but they wish it to be simpler and less
expensive.  

It's an interesting book to read if your Christmas has become too
hectic.

Kathie
From: ck270@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Andrea Von Ahnen)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Homebirth vs. Hospital birth
Date: 27 Dec 1992 23:55:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Anne, it's nice to see another netter out there who is educated
about homebirth, it's safety, etc.  *clap clap!*
   
Andi    Mom to Aaron, Alex (both born at home) and 3 due 3/93
From: n36c@pnet16.cts.com (Rm1 Straight)
Subject: Re: Second month on Clomid - no luck yet!
Organization: People-Net [pnet16], NCTAMS EASTPAC
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:16:04 GMT

My wife was on clomid for four six months before she bacame pregnant. Just
curiosity, what is the dose of clomid that you're on? She was on 50mg for 
four months, and then two months at 100 mg. Now, a story; My sister-in-law
was on clomid (50 mg) and she had twins. Her Dr.'s sister was on clomid, 100
mg and she had triplets! We about died. But we only had one precious little
boy (3 1/2 months early!) Never know it now though. 
   Any way, keep at it and God will bless you when He sees fit.
                                              Str8
Navy Special Communications. Is there anything else?
From: wang@ssd.intel.com (Wen-Lin Wang)
Subject: Re: **> DISCOVERY TOYS <**
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division (SSD), Intel
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:25:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.205227.23827@ra.oc.com> jws@hp835.mitek.com (Jeanetha Wemken) writes:
>
>I too have been charged for a catalog to take home to my husband after
>attending and buying at a Discovery Toys party.
>
We walked to the Discovery Toys booth on the Parents Day at Caroline's 
daycare.  Since it was late and we didn't have time to hear the sales
woman's pitch, we asked politely if we can borrow a catalogue overnight
(since I saw some parents got one).  The woman said firmly, " No, I can't
do that.  Only those who commited to buy (toys) can borrow it."

>I didn't think too fondly of the "sales" representative.
Me, either.  It was a big turn-off.  We walked away.

Wen-lin
--
From: glen@slate.cs.wisc.edu (Glen Ecklund)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Daycare vs. Nanny; FT vs. PT for an Infant
Date: 28 Dec 92 17:07:13 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

BIOSEE@UKCC.UKY.EDU (Stephanie Edelmann) writes:

>In article <1992Dec23.193436.16434@oakhill.sps.mot.com>
>amym@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Amy Moseley Rupp) writes:
> 
>>
>>We are investigating nannies after our efforts at finding a good
>>daycare (with a vacancy) seem to have failed.
>>
I haven't been following this thread, but I have some experience in this area.
We have had a couple of part time nannies.  After our first nanny finished
college, she wanted to be making more money, and we wanted to have a playmate
for Ethan, so we advertised and found another family with a boy of similar
age to share the time together.  This worked very well (she was a great
nanny!) until she left to pursue a bigger challenge (Teach for America).
This was when he was one year old.  We would have continued it if possible.

We now have another part time nanny who is also a student.

Now Ethan is almost 2.5, and we take him to a daycare center 2 mornings/week.
He mostly does OK, but I think that 4:1 or 6:1 is just too many children per
adult.  My wife is now volunteering there, taking Ethan with her an additional
morning each week.  This helps Ethan and the other children (one more adult)
and helps us to know what goes on there, and how to help Ethan deal with
the issues it brings up.

-- 
Every child shall be treated with complete respect.

Glen Ecklund     glen@cs.wisc.edu   (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences        1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison       Madison, Wis. 53706  U.S.A.
From: llf@alice.att.com (alice!llf)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Daycare vs. Nanny; FT vs. PT for an Infant
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:57:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24507
Reply-To: llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf)
Organization: New Jersey State Home for Bewildered Kittens

In article <168CA869E.BIOSEE@UKCC.UKY.EDU> BIOSEE@UKCC.UKY.EDU (Stephanie Edelmann) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.193436.16434@oakhill.sps.mot.com>
>amym@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Amy Moseley Rupp) writes:
>>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>However, I'm sure at SOME age the stimulation of other children
>>wins out over staying at home with a nanny.  What's that age?
>>
>This is not my own personal experience, just an opinion I have
>because I've watched other children. (Since I can't afford a
>... that a daycare setting is the better arrangement at about 2-3 years of
>age.  A friend of mine's son has had a nanny for his sone who is now
>3.5.  He tried getting him into daycare recently because the boy is

I suspect that a great deal of this depends on your particular child and the
other children and they care arrangement you make.

Our child went to family based care at 7 months (one mother watching a total
of 2 kids, our 7 month old and her own 2.5 year old, plus her older kids
after elementary school let out).  After several weeks of
loud protest at not being carried around by mommy all the time, she settled
in very nicely, and very clearly benefited within weeks of being there.
(learning to watch other kids, learning to take turns, learning to share,
learning to play cooperatively, and wanting to do anything that the older kids
did)  One of my favorite memories is of our not yet mobile 9 month old racing
around in a walker playing free form chase with the 2.75 year old.  We never
did figure out the rules to that game, but they clearly had a wonderful time.
Currently, we have never seen a case where our toddler has been unwilling to
share toys or take turns.

So at least in one experience, somewhere around 6 to 8 months was about right.
Lynda
-- 
					Member HASA, Atheist-Scum Division
"The One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse" - Terry Pratchet
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: CREECH@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Teresa Creech)
Subject: Re: Our early Christmas
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:03:23 GMT

In article <92356.110402CLH7@psuvm.psu.edu>
Chris Himes <CLH7@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
 
>I'm afraid he will be a little
>disappointed when we take it (the Christmas Tree) down.
 
Our tree goes up right after Thanksgiving and comes down after New Years.
I remember putting up the tree when our daughter was 18 months old.  She
wanted to know why we were putting a tree in the living room.
After she got used to the tree being there, she thought it was a great
decorating idea.  Then January rolled around and she was VERY ANGRY when we
took the tree down.  She actually thought it was up for good.
From: cconell@reed.edu (Carol Conell)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Daycare & being sick
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:17:54 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

I just wanted to offer some encouragement to those who feel dismally
that their kids' being in daycare will mean they'll be sick forever.
I have 2 (4 years apart) and both of them were sick what seemed like
continually at 1st in daycare but by the time my older girl started
kindergarten she began to be sick only very rarely and my younger
one--at 4--has only missed 1 day so far since September and probably
no more than a week worth the year before.  In my experience, up to
2 or 3 is really hard, but after that things start to improve.  
And real school is a total surprise, because not only do they get
sick less but suddenly instead of being called to bring your child
home only to discover that they don't seem sick enough to you to warrant
it--maybe they were overtired or they can't blow their nose and have a
tiny cold, you find your kid not being sent home days when once you see
them you think they should have been--i.e., they're running a fever of 103.
So, cheer up.  Eventually things will look up and you probably in the long
run won't have any more sickness over their childhood, it's just more concentrated
in the early years if they go to daycare or have older siblings in school.--Carol

-- 
Carol Conell; Sociology; Reed College; Portland, OR 97202 (503) 771-1112
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: BIOSEE@UKCC.UKY.EDU (Stephanie Edelmann)
Subject: Re: Things they do to make you proud (29months)
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:41:29 GMT

In article <Bzzuzz.BBD@news.iastate.edu>
sinnott@tc4.fi.ameslab.gov (Susan B. Sinnott) writes:
 
>
>[...]   He watched the movie for the next *hour*!  The only noises he made
>were to occaisionally talk to himself, but not loudly enough for anyone else
>to hear.  We were all very proud of him!
>
>Susan Sinnott
>sinnott@tc4.fi.ameslab.gov
>
>
My SIL and me took my stepdaughter Maya (10) and her daughter Ryan (6)
bowling the other day.  I din't want to go at first because I figured
that Tatijana (2) would probably not do any good.  She's been very clingy
lately and I could just see her getting hurt getting hit in the head by
a bowling ball when she runs up behind me .... (isn't it funny that you
always imagine the worst..) Well, Maya talked me into it anyway - she's
real good at that.  And we _did_ have a great time.  Tatijana sat there
the entire time and watched us.  She occasionally commented on our
style etc. and seemed to be having a good time, too.  At the very end, when
we had finished the second round, we still had a couple of minutes on
the clock (we had the lanes for 2 hours).  Maya helped Tat to push a
ball by "herself".  That just made her day - she was soooo proud.
For the rest of the day she kept on telling evrybody who would listen
about it. "And I pushed the red ball really hard - and it rolled
like this (imagine the arms just having a great time showing it)
- and it didn't hit anything".
 
Her last ball, by the way, didn't quite make it all the way to the pins,
it rolled in the gutter and came BACK to us.  I didn't know that it was
physically possible for the ball to come back.  I thought there was a slight
slant to the lane and the gutter.
 
Stephanie
 
PS: Ryan was a lot of fun, too. She'd just stand there and basically drop
the ball.  It would then zig-zag down the lane and,utilizing every uneven
spot on the lane, come to rest within the pins.  She made second place
on out first round...
 
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: kgatling@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Keith E Gatling)
Subject: Circumcision and Pro-Choice (was: A few facts about circumcision)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 07:01:10 EST

WARNING, WILL ROBINSON, WARNING!  SOME OF YOU MAY WISH TO JUST PUT THIS
SUBJECT LINE IN YOUR KILL FILES (NOTICE HOW IT'S BEEN CHANGED).  FOR THE
REST OF YOU WHO ARE BRAVE ENOUGH TO CONTINUE ON WITH THIS, HANG ONTO YOUR
HATS!  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

In article <1993Jan1.235506.15389@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu
(The One and Only) writes:

   > It is quite humorous how you turn the phrase "pro-choice" on
   > it's head.  The only application to the circumcision issue is to
   > allow the boy to choose whether or not to be circumcised.  It is
   > his body, so it is should be his choice.

Interesting, very interesting.  I saw this coming long ago, but didn't think
that anyone would actually step in this one when I first made the comment.
Oh foolish me.

Please forgive me if I'm confusing you with the person who said that there's
no difference between being pro-choice on abortion and pro-choice on
circumcision since it boils down to who ultimately has control over their
own body, becacuse that's the argument I'm going to set my sights on right
now and take a few good shots at.

Said person also stated that the problem with infant circumcisions is that
they remove any choice in the situation from the kid.  Well guess what...so
do abortions.  Before I wrote this post, I told my wife about how I couldn't
believe that someone actually walked into this one, and she said that given
a choice between abortion and circumcision most kids would probably say,
"I'll take circumcision for 20."

So in other words, you're saying that while it's inside you can basically
rip the kid apart limb from limb, but once it's outside you can't take off a
measly little foreskin?  Hey, then have I got a solution for you...circ the
kid while he's still in utero, then it's the MOTHER'S choice, since it's
still only an extension of her body!

Jonathan Swift, please call home.

   > Come on, admit it.  What really bugs you is the fact that you
   > can't come up with good reasons to continue the routine practice
   > of surgically removing the protective covering from the head of
   > an unconsenting infant's penis.

Hmmm...I get the impression that either you didn't read a thing I said about
the stats being a judgement call, or you chose to totally ignore them so
that you could continue to browbeat the rest of us.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Keith E Gatling                                  kgatling@mailbox.syr.edu *
*          Opinions?  I've got plenty of them.  Just ask my wife!           *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
From: CREECH@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Teresa Creech)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Childcare Holiday standards
Date: 27 Dec 92 15:29:36 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In article <27378@sybase.sybase.com>
peac@sybase.com (Jeff Peacock) writes:
 
>I have a question for those of you who use day care.  How do your daycare
>providers charge for Holidays/Vacations?
 
My rule for days off was that if I was getting paid (and I usually was),
the daycare provider was paid.  The single exception was if she asked off
and I had to pay another provider.  I refused to pay double.
 
So, If you or spouse are off during these days, pay her.  Daycare is her
JOB not a hobby.  You wouldn't like it if your boss refused to pay you for
days off:-).  If you have to find alternate daycare, she should not expect
to be paid since you are going to the trouble of helping her have some time
off and should not be expected to pay double daycare.
 
We had several reasons for switching our children from home daycare to a
daycare center and this was one of them.  The provider always seemed to want
more money, even though we paid her more than the going rate and always paid
her even when she had the day off.  It got old after a while.
 
Teresa
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: Cutting it off (was: A few facts about circumcision)
Summary: answer the question, please.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 00:04:10 GMT

In article <765343d3261909t221@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
>In <1992Dec31.042213.2523@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)  wrote:
># 
># Can you explain why child abuse is my (or anyone's) business where I can impose
># my views (child protection) and circumcision is not?
>
>  I think this thread has been done to death

Is that why you avoided answering my question or is it because you don't like
the conclusion that can be drawn from the answer?

>  So it comes down
>  to one of two possibilities:
>
>  1) It's up to the parents, who've heard all sorts of reasons why
>     they shouldn't circumcise and have to decide on their own, or
>  2) They can't be trusted with the decision, in which case -- what?

I disagree, it comes down to a very simple principle:
It is the boy's body, so it should be his choice.

Jim Copeland
--
Have you washed your brain today?
Newsgroups: misc.kids,sci.med
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Subject: Re: Ritalin
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 22:12:17 GMT

<X42125@BARILVM.BITNET> writes:

>Please ecuse my english since this is
>my first time posting.  My 10 year old
>son has ben on Ritalin for 1 year now
>(1 pill 2 times a day) and he has
>been having lately violence attacks.
>My doctor has told me to cut the doze
>to half a pill since he said that at
>the end of the pill - there are some
>cases of violence.  I have heard of
>other pills - Dexadrine, Cylert and
>Tofranil - can any of these be used
>to cut down random violent outbursts
>and be used insted of Ritalin?

>Any infomation on Ritalin would also
>help.

>Steve

GET THE opinion of another doctor ASAP ! Find someone who has been
keeping up on ADD/ADHD, a lot of papers have been published in the
last two to three years. Ask why the british have almost stopped
prescribing Ritalin, have you son checked for allergies and toxic
reactions to Ritalin. Ask why your doctor what he has been doing
to keep up on Ritalin, ask wher he was educated on its benifits 
(did that education come from CIBA ?) What was tried before
the use of Ritalin ? Has your son had a psy. evaluation ?
How about some nural tests ? Get other opinions, ask as many
questions as you can. Enough for now, don't worry about your
spelling, I can't spell very well either.
 
-pete
petel@sequent.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jacobsen@cc.swarthmore.edu (Robin Jacobsen)
Subject: Re: Maternity lv and day care
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:14:33 GMT

When I was on maternity leave with my second daughter Emily, my first
Katie, continued to go to in home care for a few hours each morning.  I
reduced the time but didn't keep her home all day.  She loved her
babysitter and enjoyed going over and having other kids to play with.  I
enjoyed having time to just spend with the baby and to sleep.  Because I
was able to nap with Emily, when Katie came home I had more enery to do
things just with her when Emily took her afternoon nap.  

f you have the option to reduce the hours to 1/2 days at the day-care
center that might give you a chance to get some rest and her a chance to be
with other kids and play.

Good luck,

Robin Jacobsen
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.men,alt.atheism,alt.sex.wizards
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 02:47:39 GMT

Is it true that many americans,irrespective of relegious
or ethnic background  have their newborn sons 
circumsised today?  If this is indeed so, what are the
reasons behind it?

I would appreciate any information given on the above.
-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign

Newsgroups: misc.kids