HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney)
Subject: Turning down women (was Re: To Prof. P. on degrees of rape ...)
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:02:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.213214.669@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>  [other stuff deleted]
>I'm sorry but I disagree that someone who has sex with a women too drunk to say
>no is not as bad as any other rapist.  I have refused to have sex with women
>who were very drunk and saying "YES!" in the most enthusiastic way possible.
>  [more description deleted]
>KimmyD
>
>P.S.:  Are there any people out there who feel like I do about this or are my
>       views totally pyscho ?  If there are people that agree then by all
>       mean jump in any time.  I could use a breather!

No, you're not totally psycho, just sorta loud.  Like others here.  I got
no problem with that, and you are actually more willing than some to deal
with disagreement, clarify issues, etc.  I don't mind the flames as long
as there is information coming through at the same time.

Anyway... your decision is the right one, IMO.  Although there are
circumstances under which consent could be given or known (e.g. if she
says to her SO "Let's get stumbling drunk and make love like crazed
weasels, I've got the vodka right here") if there is any doubt, leave it
out.  The worthwhile women will respect you for this.  If you tell them
that you just don't like sex with someone who's drunk and tell them why,
they should respect that, too.  (After all, everyone's allowed to set
their own limits, that's the fundamental point here.)

	This ties in with a previous post of DC's with which I strongly
agree--that when a someone says "no" even if they seem to mean "yes," just
stop.  Discuss things.  If they're pissed off, that's their problem, but
this is part of the process of teaching people not to play the games that
encourage the idea that "no" can mean "yes."  Unfortunately, this ties in
with the stigma of sex being "dirty," and some people not wanting to take
responsibility for it.  The old line, "but you won't respect me in the
morning" still has too much truth to it.  Used to be a woman would feel
she had to say "no" even when she meant "yes" or risk being branded as a
slut.  Thankfully, a lot of that is gone, but still too much there.  When
the stigma of enjoying sex goes, the need to pretend not to want it goes,
and with it, the confusion (real or as an excuse) between the other person
not wanting it and pretending not to want it also goes.   There's a whole
nasty edifice of lies that needs to be torn down.



-- 
--
Charles R. Tenney	tenney@med.unc.edu   | What would the UNC school of
					     | Medicine want with my opinions?
	"My karma ran over my dogma."	     | What would I want with theirs?
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Question for Scott
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:36:03 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul23.204414.25451@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.122910.8875@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>As a matter of fact, Paul Sorvenio starred in a movie years ago where he had
>>been raped, and was laughed out of the police station. No one believed him.
>>And, yes, I am aware that women who are raped are considered wimps. However,
>>I do not worry about that because no one I know of would ever dream of calling
>>me that. 
> 
> But people you know would call you gay if you reported a rape by a
> man?
> 

Probably not to my face. However, they would probably all wonder if I contracted
AIDS during the assault.

That is reason enough to keep it quiet.

DC
 

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: Ok Ami if you insist ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:49:43 GMT

I tried to ignore your first post since I felt that you argument was so lame
that it didn't deserve a response.  This one doesn't either but since I am
caught up in this discussion due to my own lack of good sense I will continue
to fire my weapons until I go under or run out of ammo.  First of all the
fantasies you describe are not rape fantasies.  They are erotic sex fantasies.
At no time during a rape does the victim "want it".  Rape by it very definition
is a violation of the victims body / soul / spirit against her (his) will.
Let me assure you that my wife *NEVER* wanted her father / grandfather / uncle
have sex with her.  Is this gettin' through to you yet?  If I fantasize about
throwing someone onto the bed who soon becomes willing to have sex with me
then I am fantasizing about someone who wasn't opposed to the idea in the first
place.  She ends up begging for more?  What rape victim ever did that ?  Flush
your head gear out before you accidently step out in front of a bus or some-
thing.  And to compare a sick rape fantasy to dreaming about being a cop or
formula-1 race car driver is the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard!
Fantasy of any sort is both a way of experimenting / indulging in activities
one whould never engage in huh ?  = B*LL SH*T! =  I fantasize about murdering
my father-n-law and his father and his brother every day.  The one and only
thing that keeps me from doing that is that I would end up dead and there would
be nobody left to look after my wife.  All that junk about Civil War re-
enactment and SCA is plain old noise.  Totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Maybe I should say tirade as at this moment I am foaming at the mouth ... YUK!

Anyway as far your fantasy about the lovely students.  Keep it up.  You'll
do it sooner or later.

KimmyD

P.S.:  After you get your responding licks in can we drop this fight.  I'm
       way tired of it and it ain't helpin' nobody.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: Rape experiences
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 20:19:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.144038.1@engr> s_mesbah@engr writes:
>Looking for someone to share rape experiences with.  
>
>regards,
>Sam

Before corresponding with the person using the above account, I suggest
that people look at the following post from the same account on the
same day, on soc.women. 

Sam, is this a joke, a forgery, or what?  

------------------------------------------------------------------
From: s_mesbah@engr
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: women's place in life
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:21:46 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

Hi y'al

	I am new to this group and I'd just thought I'd share my views with
you.  I think that all you women should get away from the computer and start
doing what you were created to do (kitchen, kids, and domesticated love slave).
Remember, you were made from our rib!

---------------------------------------------------------------------  

Leon Gross
i'M not an actor, but I play one on TV.
From: snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: rape - lust apology
Date: 28 Jul 92 10:17:45 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Jul28.101457.202126@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.133304.202121@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> apology to come :
>> 
>> I am very sorry, but it seems as if someone got hold of my password and had
>> some fun. The posting labelled "rape - lust" was not written by me Evan Snyman
>> and I totally dissociate myself from any such sentiment.
>> 
>> I hope this will never happen again.
>> Evan Snyman.  
> 
> UNLUCKY Evan! ...


Sorry but I think I've got a bug here and will just have to kill it...

Eva snyman 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: Amy: Honest, I didn't ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:50:29 GMT

... mean it that way at all.  If my email was working I would have sent my
apology to you alone.  As it was I figured it would be better to address it
to the whole group.  Really I didn't apologize because I'm in the minority,
even if that is the case.  And I'm not apologizing for my views on rape etc.
I apologize for the comment about the "225 lb wacho ...".  That was wrong.
I'm sincerly sorry about that junk.  Like I said you don't have to forgive
someone just because they ask forgiveness.  It's your option.  I see that you
have excersized your option not to do that.  I tried.

You assert that I am stupid.  My I.Q. is well above average.  That I am
flighty.  Yes I do fly off the handle sometimes.  Emotional.  Yep, that too.
Sexist.  This one I have to disagree on.  I believed that women & men were
equal before it was fashionable to do so.  In fact I believe there are only
two things that women need men for: Procreation and War.  Even those two
things could be argued against.  I mean if men weren't around there might
not be any wars and even if there were it would be women vs. women, an equal
match. 

I applaud you for carrying weapons on your person.  You sound as if you are
prepared to use them.  Fabulous, I wish more women were like you.  However,
just keep in mind that there are people in the world who have been trained
to disarm and immobilize / kill with great effectiveness.  Make sure you
know how to use your weapons and are truly ready to use them.

As for my concern for you personally.  Hey I don't even know you lady.  But
I wouldn't want anyone to be raped or assaulted.  You seem like a very hostile
person.  Frankly, I can identify.  Admittedly I too am an extremely hostile
person.  I'm workin' on it.  But don't get the impression that I am trying
to back down from you with an apology.  I don't back down unless I'm sure
I'll get damaged.  I'm far from convinced of that.

Listen, if you don't want to talk to me, fine.  But if you do let's agree not
to snipe at one another.  I'm not too good at that sort of thing but I'll
do my best not to be a stupid, flighty, emotional, sexist prick.  And I will
refrain from calling you equally nasty things.  Ok?

KimmyD
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape (what else?)
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:14:26 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul21.153235.8496@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Jul18.100908.8742@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>2. A woman should not be forced to resort to physical repulsion in order 
>>to convince someone that she does not want sex.
> 
> A person should not be forced to resort to physical repulsion in order
> to convince someone that s/he does not want sex.
> 
> What I find interesting about this whole discussion (not just what
> you've written, DC) is that we seem to be saying there are special
> rules for sex, where some people believe that no means anything but.
> 
> (1) Your s.o. picks you up after work and the two of you are
> discussing dinner.  She says, "You feel like Chinese food?"  You say,
> "No, I had it for lunch."  She pulls into the parking lot of a Chinese
> restaurant and gets out of the car.
> 
> (2) You and your s.o. are going to the movies.  You ask him what he
> wants to see.  He says, "Anything that doesn't have Bruce Willis in
> it."  You get tickets for the latest Bruce Willis film.

Yes, but your significant other has not handcuffed you and dragged you into the
diner. Nor have they forced you to see Hudson Hawk. You consented by going in
with them.

> 
>>However, there are women out there who are very, very afraid of thwarting a
>>horny males libido. She may be saying 'no' as a way pf pleading you to stop.
>>You continue, and she figures, "Oh God. I asked him to stop. He didn't. Well,
>>I'll go through with this because if I try to puch him off, he may get violent,
>>beat me, and then rape me anyway."
> 
> I think many men don't realize how intimidated some women are by their
> physical size and strength.  I was stupid and insensitive enough once
> to question a friend who was date-raped about why she hadn't fought
> him off.  "I'm 5' tall and I weigh 100 lbs.  He was 6' tall and
> weighed 180.  What chance did I have?"

Well, the chance to get beaten up AND then raped.

> 
> 
> Often the wait-in-the-bushes person says that s/he could tell the
> victim wanted sex because of the way s/he dressed, walked, etc.  If a
> rapist like that really believes it's consensual sex and not rape,
> does that make her/him less culpable?

No. You use the reaosnable person standard. Any reasonable person KNOWS a woman
passing by does not want to be dragged in at knifepoint and raped. Twenty to
life.

> 
> Date rape is more often not "Well, I said no, but he insisted and I
> felt helpless."  The date rapes I've heard and read of involved
> victims being pinned down or beaten and raped.

Insisting (if like pleading/begging) is not rape. Insisting with physical
threats is. In my opinion.

DC
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:19:54 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul29.151040.25874@ncar.ucar.edu>, sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan) writes:

> 
> I would have to say that if rape is the second most common sexual fantasy, then it
> is normal by the definition of normal - many people commonly do it. I think a 
> separate issue is whether or not it is healthy.
> 
> All common practices are normal, but whether or not they are healthy is another 
> matter altogether. 
> 

For that question, the consenscus is, fantasizing is normal and healthy.
Obsession with it, as with ANY obseession, is not healthy.
But, there again, it is the pbseesive behavior that makes it unhealthy, not the
subject matter.



Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:45:18 GMT

In article <Brwv1E.6uB@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (amy young) writes:
>It is so much easier to just sweep the problems (or in this case, the
>bodies) under the rug when there are problems, isn't it?  Granted,
>I think that anyone who commits rape is sick and needs severe help,
>but I do believe that even those who are spawned in this society that openly
>promotes rape beyond the pc lip slapping can be helped, and as a
>"civilized" society it is out duty to make every effort to do so. 

I'm curious as to how _you_ think this society openly promotes rape?
For example, films that show rape as being erotic rather than violent,
do they openly promote rape?
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:13:46 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <SYNTH.92Jul27130810@deepthought.unm.edu> synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
Synth>
Susan> ... but I am still at a loss as to the
Susan> reasons for fantasizing that one is raping another person.
Susan> When people say they fantasize about raping someone, are they
Susan> referring to a nonviolent scene such as Rolfe described
Susan> earlier, or something very different?
Synth>
Synth>Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
Synth>around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most
Synth>men visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of
Synth>whoever is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal.  (And doesn't
Synth>this also describe the "date rape" scenario as well?)  The image of
Synth>the woman here is of neither consenting nor objecting, but of just
Synth>being a receptacle for sex.

Thank you, too.  Both of the explanations helped me to understand
something that I really didn't before.

Susan> When I learned that the thing that raped me had
Susan> cancer, I imagined going to the prison and torturing him now
Susan> that he was helpless.  These fantasies alarmed me in that they
Susan> were so violent.  I got some help.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Synth>What were you told about your fantasy?  Were you told that it was
Synth>abnormal?

As I said in my response to Rolfe, no, I wasn't.  

I think what primarily bothered me about that fantasy was
how much I enjoyed the idea of domination and causing
pain.  The rape fantasies that you and Rolfe describe
don't seem to have that element.  

Susan
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Study shows no corrolation between rape and porn
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:18:06 GMT
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

>In the United States, where pornography is illegal yet available
>through mail order, [...]

Since when was pornography illegal in the US?  It's heavily
restricted, yes, but not illegal...

--
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should
they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under God."
	-- President George Bush, Chicago, August 27, 1988
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: What to do about rape (Was: Re: To Tim S.: You're right )
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:12:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.234317.4526@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:

>I want
>rape to stop.  I want child molestation to stop.  I feel powerless to bring
>that about.  It makes me nuts!  I rant.  Don't know exactly what to do about
>it.
>
   Relax and take a few deep breaths.  There's no easy answer. To decide
where you really stand requires thought, not rant. Look at the issues
carefully, and with an open mind. You may find you have to give up some of
you previously held beliefs. If you _know_ you won't do that then, you have
no basis for seeking the truth or defining your own beliefs.
   A tidbit for you to ponder: In 1967, Denmark legalized pornography.
The rate of reported child molestation dropped sharply. (I believe it was
40%). I can supply the citation for this if anyone wants to check it out
for themselves.

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: DC: You just can't ...
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:51:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.203838.18809@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>
>1) Fantasizing about rape is sick.  When I say rape I mean true rape.  That is

    Well, there's no reason for DC to be the only one to call you up on
this. You might think he's the only one to disagree with you. Why do you think
it is sick? Why? DC can cite references showing that rape fantasies are very
common. You can argue with the data, or you can make up an argument that
even though they are common, they are wrong. But you eventually have to
put up or shut up. You statment is unsupported opinion. DC and others try
to provide some evidence for thier arguments. The ball is in your court.

>
>
>
>7) I would rather blindly attack the problem of rape in our society than sit
>   around waiting for something to happen while people like yourself go
>   right on compiling lists of flicks with rape scenes and telling people it
>   is a-ok to have fantasies about forcing another person to have sex with
>   them.

     The problem with this is that if you should be wrong in your assesment
of the needs of society to stop rape (the only idea you have suggested as far 
as I know is to execute convicted rapists), you are having the effect of
stopping others from doing what may be in the best interests of society.
     The question is: in a free society where rape is very rare, will there
be lists of rape scenes, and movies with those rape scenes? I believe that
DC's list will help prevent rape (in a very small way, but a positive one).
I believe that the way to stop rape is to increase sexual freedom, and to me
"Fantasizing about rape is sick" moves in completely the opposite direction
from where you want to go.

>
>8) I'll only tell you this one time.  Leave my wife out of your post.  I can
>   assure you that I am serious on this point.  I am deadly serious.  You are

   I think you should decide what you can talk about, and what you can't,
before you post. It's not possible to argue with you if we have to worry
about stepping on landmines.
   You are absolutely right, _you_ brought you wife into the argument. In
fact she was the sole reason for you articles. As far as I am concerned,
you have only two choices, retract statment 8, or 'u' this group, and
don't come back.

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
From: seiffe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Erica Seiffert)
Subject: Re: Kristen's Question (off the track a bit)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:43:55 GMT

In article <SCG.92Jul20184952@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>seiffe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Erica Seiffert) writes:
>
>>Part of talking about this issue of rape is too educate people. Let
>>me say this again, MANY people believe that if a woman fantasizes
>>about rape, than that means she really wants to be raped.
>
>Typical Freudian nonsense.  Freud has some remarkably stupid ideas
>about women (men too).  Reminds me of a certain net.idiot I know who
>think that whenever a woman has sex (including being raped) that she
>really, subconsciously, wanted to have sex.

		Excuse me, but I think you have missed the point of my
	post. I am NOT saying that women who fantasize about being raped
	want to be raped. I certainly don't. I'm saying that there are
	people out there that do believe that's what a woman wants. I'm saying
	that there is a rape myth out there and posting statistics about rape 
	fantasies without mentioning the control factor (ie people are in 
	control	when they fantasize versus not being in control when they are 
	being raped) can lend support to their false belief. That's
	my opinion. DC doesn't agree with me. 

>
>>In my opinion it is not wise to post statistics about women
>>fantasizing about rape without mentioning the feeling of control a
>>woman has when she indulges in this fantasy, because to do so may
>>help promote a rape myth.
>
>>Don't get me wrong, posting statics on rape fantasies is educates
>>people on an interesting happening in the human psyche, but, I hate
>>to see these findings used as justification for rape.
>
		Of course there is no justification for rape (perhaps that was
	a poor choice of wording on my part). Perhaps I should phase my 
	sentiment this way, "I hate to see these findings used to validate
	a rape myth."


	ems
	*******
	I don't speak for my employers and we both like it that way.

>There is no justification for rape.  Anybody who tries to justify the
>senseless violation of somebody else's sexuality is an idiot of the
>highest magnitude.
>
>>Remember, many men who are tried for aquaintance rape really don't
>>see what they did as wrong. They are convinced that the woman enjoyed
>>it and even wanted it.
>		
>Amazing how stupid some men (and, unfortuately, some women) are.
>
>--
>There's a lot of overweight people in the world, many are arguably
>food-addicts.  Shall we outlaw chocolate cake?
>		-- Mike Percy (grimlok@hubcap.clemson.edu), alt.censorship


Newsgroups: talk.rape