HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gml4410@ggr.co.uk (Lack Mr G M)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 3 Sep 92 10:44:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Via: uk.co.ggr; Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:56:01 +0100
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 10:51:38 BST
Message-Id: <9209030951.AA04782@uk0x06.ggr.gri.com>

> From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
> Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
> Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful

> I also find that having a virtual desktop, with lots of xterms, gives me
> the best of both worlds - cause I find somethings easier to do with the
> GUI (like tracking lots of mail boxes for incoming mail, watching log/info
> files for new information, etc) and I find other things easier with a CUI
> (like vi, ksh, etc.)
>
> I don't know why folks have to take an either/or angle.  Let's make the
> user more proficient by giving them access to both environments and
> when it makes more sense to use shell, a CUI, a mouse, voice input, a
> blink of the eye, a sneeze/hiccup/burp/whatever then use it.  And make
> as many of the other accesses available as possible, for those with
> other priorities...

     Precisely.  Its best to have the choice.  I don't believe that GUIs
are better than CLIs, but neither do I believe tha converse.   Each  has
their  place,  which  will  be different for diffrent people, so let the
*actual user* choose (which is surely the X philosophy - hence  resource
files). 

     For  those GUI-only lovers, please consider how you would enter you
replies/comments with  a  GUI-only  editor.   No  you  *can't*  use  the
keyboard  but have to cut and paste every individual letter or word from
a selection menu...... 


-------------------------- Gordon Lack ----------------------------------
The contents of this message *may* reflect my personal opinion.  They are
*not* intended to reflect those of my employer, or anyone else."
From: bagwill@swe.ncsl.nist.gov (Bob &)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:44:33 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: 28 Aug 92 13:13:24 GMT
Message-Id: <5213@dove.nist.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
: System 7 and Motif don't take more CPU power because they're rendering more
: stuff. They take more CPU power because they're badly designed internally.

IMHO, X is big because an X server is a guest operating system running
on top of our beloved kitchen-sink UNIX.  X has tasking, memory
management, IPC, resource management, security, and so on.  No wonder
it's big.  And every X client is a portable device driver that has to
be aware of the hardware and software environment, has to support
cooperative multitasking, has to deliberately share font and color and memory
resources, has to be well-behaved, or the system breaks.

--
Bob Bagwill
Caveat Canem
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 26 Aug 92 07:40:59 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

Date: 26 Aug 92 05:14:25 GMT
Message-Id: <BtKrw1.EEy@mtholyoke.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <id.3AOS.4A2@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>(then there's the question of WHY IT TAKES SO MUCH GODDAMN MEMORY...
>but that's apparently considered normal these days... I understand
>WNT will require 8 MB)

Like Apple's System 7 "requires" 2 MB.  The developers version of NT
is pretty crammed in 12 MB.  Let's call it 16 MB.  (But then, by the
time NT is released, 64 Mb DRAMs might be in production.)
--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
From: jym@cruz.denver.sgi.com
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Multiple X screens with one keyboard.
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:38:14 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Date: 25 Aug 92 14:44:26 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug25.144426.18201@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.sys.sgi

Hello -

I am interested in doing the following:

Having two X displays that are driven by one keyboard and mouse.
The configuration must be such that when i move the mouse off the
right side of screen 1, it appears on the left side of screen 2.
It must also allow existing X clients to be run in the configuration
without modification.
Ideally, the configuration would be one workstation with an X display, and
one X terminal.

If anyone has done this and has comments, please forward them to 
jym@sgi.com.  Or, if you have public domain code that implements 
what i described above, even better yet.  Just mail me an ftp site.

Thanks,

jim t (jym@sgi.com)
From: srpxpert@godiva.ssw.com (Selene R. Platt)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Motif List Widget weirdness
Date: 24 Aug 92 21:56:03 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 12:43:52 -0400
Message-Id: <9208241643.AA18537@godiva.ssw.com>


> In the application I am writing I need to change all the items in a
> Motif List Widget....

> To try to install my new list I have done the following:
>
> 1)	XmListDeleteAllItems(listWidget);


We were told in X/Motif training about a year ago that XmListDeleteAllItems()
was buggy.  I don't know the exact description of the bug(s), nor whether it/
they have been fixed in 1.1.5.  Try calling XmListDeleteItemsPos() with the 
XmNitemCount value and starting at position 1.  It works for me.  You could
also call XmListDeleteItems() if you maintain the XmString list elements 
somewhere.  I'm not a Motif expert, but it *could* be that your attempt at
calling XmListDeletePos() in a loop, specifying the position incrementally,
may screw up if the remaining list elements are renumbered after each call 
(i.e., if there are 3 elements, then after you call it with position=1 there 
are then only 2 elements, etc....maybe calling it for 'XmNitemCount' # of 
times with position=1 every time might work, but this is just a guess).

Good luck!

- Selene Platt


	{~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~}
	{ Selene Platt                  (215) 651-5305           }
	{ Soft*Switch Inc.                                       }
	{ 640 Lee Rd.                   srp@godiva.ssw.com       }
	{ Wayne, PA  19087                                       }
	 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: etxmesa@eos.ericsson.se (Michael Salmon)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: need help accessing upper 128 font chars
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:54:49 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB

Date: 27 Aug 92 08:54:56 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.085456.5864@ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Aug21.200203.3535@mercury.unt.edu>,
gene@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Gene De Lisa) writes:
|> 
|> I need to create text with accented characters.
|> 
|> supposedly this can be accomplished by pressing the meta
|> key and hitting the corresponding key from the lower 128.
|> This doesnt work.

This is only true for xterm.

|> The only way I can get them is by using openwindows and
|> typing at the command line using the sun4 compose key
|> sequences. this wont work in emacs or vi -- just the
|> command line. Ive tried to compare the XKeysymDB but
|> I cant find where openwindows puts it.
|> 
|> The best solution for us would be to not use openwindows.
|> Is there anyone who can give me a hint where the translations
|> are being messed up? Ill settle for any key sequence --
|> compose key or meta.

You can define certain key sequence translations that generate the
characters you want for each widget that you want to use them or try
compose.tar.Z from mit. There is supposed to be an updated server in
the works that does it there but I am not sure when it will be
available.

|> This is on sun4's, sunos4.1.1, X11R5, motif wm.
|> The keyboard can be the sparc ipc, an ncd terminal
|> of a mac using exodus II.

-- 

Michael Salmon

#include	<standard.disclaimer>
#include	<witty.saying>
#include	<fancy.pseudo.graphics>

Ericsson Telecom AB
Stockholm
From: mlee@cs.arizona.edu (Michael (Yuk-Wo) Lee)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: X window programming
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:03:34 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

Date: 27 Aug 92 21:17:16 GMT
Message-Id: <21194@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


I have been using X window for some time and now I want to start learning
how to program it.  Here are some questions that I encountered:

1) There are several levels of X window programming, eg. Xlib, Xt, Xview, etc.
   Which level should I start with?

2) There are things called Motif, OpenLook, OpenWins, Xview.  How do they
   differ among each other?  Which one is more popular?

Thanks in advance.


Michael


--
Michael Lee
From: rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Caley)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 29 Aug 92 07:29:46 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Human Communication Research Center

Date: 28 Aug 92 16:12:40 GMT
Message-Id: <RJC.92Aug28171240@daiches.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <1992Aug28.132640.15662@crd.ge.com>, Pete Halverson (ph) writes:

ph> The thing about having a 3d look to a button is that, in theory
ph> anyway, it makes it much more evident that it's supposed to be
ph> *pushed*.  To use Norman's term, it "affords" pushing by providing
ph> a natural visual clue.

Not to me, I don't expect to push pictures of buttons any more than I
expect to smoke pictures of pipes.

xcal, for example, has a button which is a picture of a mouse with a
button highlighted. _That_ is, to me, a good cue. I assume otehrs
would have different preferences. The worst fact about GUI guidelines
like motif or the apple horrer is that they are amazingly inflexable.
Motif has the added problem that it is disgusting on a black and white
display since taking away the chrome reveals that no one seems to have
given the actual interface much thought, so everything does lokk very
much the same.

ph> Conversely, something like just making the buttons edges round
ph> gives no such visual clue unless you've read the designer's style
ph> guide and sucessfully interned the "round edges => pushable"
ph> association!

Which takes, perhaps, 2 examples. Now, for some system where complete
novices have to do things in pressured situations that might be an
argument, but for 99.999% of possible users, the screen space, cpu
power, money etc. would be better spent making the actual task in hand
easier. 

Of course, that 2-second delay to learn which is a button may be of
importance in a shop or at a demo for a suit who signs the cheque to
buy the chrome that some poor underling has to work around. So, from
that point of view, it is good sense. That aregument also gave us one
button mice so that in-the-shop demos don't intimidate, but doing
anything useful requires 3 years choriography training.

Would anyone buy a tv set where the difference between turning it on
and changing channel was how manby times and how fast you pushed a
single button?

--
rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk			_O_
					 |<
From: frite@vlsi.polymtl.ca), (Michel Besner)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Getting Paned Window to tile horizontaly ...
Date: 29 Aug 92 05:28:32 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, lab. INFO

Date: 27 Aug 92 17:06:00 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.170600.8600@vlsi.polymtl.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x



	Hi there !

		Is it possible to get PanedWindow to lay out children
in a HORIZONTALY tiled format ? I need two frames side by side and
I want to allow the user to resize the two frames with a PanedWindow
or anything similar to it.

	Any suggestions is appreciated :) :)


				Michel Besner, eng.
				Sacred Heart Hospital 
				research center
				Montreal
				mbesner@iris1.metal.polymtl.ca



	"life is a big bowl of Jell-O :) :) ! "
From: scott@statsci.com (Scott Blachowicz)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: X-Terminals logging into HP-UX
Date: 25 Aug 92 00:14:58 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Statistical Sciences, Inc., Seattle, WA USA

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 20:05:45 GMT
Message-Id: <SCOTT.92Aug24120545@arugula.statsci.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.windows.x

>  xterm1:0) startup=/usr/lib/X11/xdm/sys.xsession;;
Rather than correcting documentation of a pretty hokey scheme for user/xterm
customizations, why not come up with a configurable scheme that doesn't
require the user to modify a "system" script?

Why not do something like look for $HOME/.vuestartup, and if that exists, use
it. If it doesn't exist, lookup the $DISPLAY in some system configuration file
that associates the display name with a startup command.

I ran across this hack when I logged into an X terminal here and didn't get
VUE started up. I saw this 'case "$DISPLAY" in'...'case "$USER" in'... stuff
and asked our sysadmin person what the heck that crap was. He replied that
that's what the HP documentation said to do. I said "argghh!!".

--
Scott Blachowicz    Ph: 206/283-8802x240      USPS:  Statistical Sciences, Inc
                                                      1700 Westlake Ave N #500
scott@statsci.com / uunet!statsci!scott                Seattle, WA USA   98109
..or..     Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org
From: david@twg.com ("David Herron")
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:29:18 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: The Wollongong Group, Inc., Palo Alto, CA

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:53:37 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug26.175124.19683@twg.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

[Peter da Silva rants about the amount of memory required by modern
GUIsh systems...]

jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) answers:

> Like Apple's System 7 "requires" 2 MB.  The developers version of NT
> is pretty crammed in 12 MB.  Let's call it 16 MB.  (But then, by the
> time NT is released, 64 Mb DRAMs might be in production.)

This is definitely one factor in how we can *afford* to do modern GUIsh
systems.  The cost of fast machines with lots of disk space and memory
is dropping quickly.  Memory is now ~$25/meg (4 meg simm's for $100) in
end-user quantities while 1-2 years ago it was $50/meg.  Disk space is
now $1.5-$2/meg generally, with $1/meg not uncommon (for largeish disks in
the 600+ meg range).  ~1 year ago I was feeling good over finding $2/meg
for a 600 meg disk..  &c &c

So why not spend some of this new `power' on making the user interface nicer?

Lots of people point at 3d borders on widgets and try to make fun of them.
Look at it from the other slant for a moment.. throw away the 3d borders
and use a Mac (pre System 7) or something written with Athena Widgets.
How does the user tell the difference between a button and a text entry 
box?  They both look *the* *same* (a box with text inside).  But on Motif 
(for instance) the button looks like a button because it's raised, while 
text entry areas look like text entry because they're sunken.  Yeah it takes
more code & CPU power to do this.  So what?  It isn't a lot and advantages
come from it.

I could go on, but there's work to do...


<- David Herron <david@twg.com> (work) <david@davids.mmdf.com> (home)
<-
<- "ISO is really just another politically correct one-world fantasy
<-  of the U.N." -- Gordon McLachlan (LAN Computing, Aug 1992, p. 37)
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Attention Earthlings -- Cross-Vendor X11 Server Mess!
Date: 2 Sep 92 10:10:08 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: The World

Date: 2 Sep 92 04:01:58 GMT
Message-Id: <BZS.92Sep1230158@ussr.std.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.apps


From: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@lucid.com>
>  -  There is no way to find out what is actually printed on the surfaces of
>     the keys.  I think you were saying that you think that there should be
>     a direct correspondence between the set of keysyms which a keycode 
>     generates and the text printed on the surface.  I don't think this is a
>     good idea.  They are two different pieces of information, one of which
>     you can change and one of which you can't.  (And, in the current system,
>     one of which you can interrogate and one of which you can't.)

From private and on-line conversations with X devpt people going back
to the original design of X11 I am 99.9% sure this was exactly the
motivation for the keysym table entries.

Actually, from "X Window System", Scheifler & Gettys (et al), 1990, p
376:

	A KEYSYM is an encoding of a symbol on the cap of a key.

>if
>one keyboard calls it "Enter" and another calls it "Return", then this should
>be transparent to the application.

Oh, I don't know, the application might choose to call them the same
thing, but as we reach for a lower and lower level of user it might be
useful to be able to prompt with exactly what is on the key we want
("Type ENTER to continue" vs "Type RETURN to continue".)

We all remember the possibly apocryphal tale of the person who, when
confronted with "Press ANY key to continue" went looking for someone
to tell him where the damn ANY key was?

(I just grabbed and built and ran xkeycaps while typing, very cute, I
like it! I think the code will also be useful.)

>Basically, the whole X keyboard model is a complete mess.  It is as good as
>no standard at all, because to get anything done, you need to have hardware-
>and vendor-specific knowledge anyway.

I think we're in violent agreement.

What are your thoughts on the possibility of writing a program which
can be run at X server startup which maps all the keys to a standard
(i.e. a description file is supplied for each keyboard, analogous to
what you've done in xkeycaps), and I suppose a standard resource or
Atom can be provided which identifies the keyboard as a string?

My current guess is that something like this can be thrown in and
thrown at server vendors without any change to any existing code, no?


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: klute@tommy.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Rainer Klute)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Problems with X11R5 compiling under gcc-2.2.2
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:50:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: CS Department, Dortmund University, Germany

Date: 28 Aug 92 06:40:37 GMT
Message-Id: <17khp5INN56i@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <1992Aug27.214226.22841@news2.cis.umn.edu>,
markb@wagner.cbs.umn.edu (Mark Berres) writes:
|> Has anyone succeeded in compiling X11R5 using gcc-2.2.2 on a sun4c
|> (IPX)?
|> Everything works fine until near the completion of the build with the
|> files:
|> 
|> 			handler.c
|> 			wtree.c
|> 			gram.c
|> 
|> A variety of warnings occur, apparently with enough punch to warrent
|> the
|> failure of the build.

This is way too few information. You should at least mention the directory
where these files are located. The last 10-20 lines of the compile listing
should also be helpful.

-- 
  Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute      klute@irb.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
  Univ. Dortmund, IRB
  Postfach 500500         |)|/    Tel.: +49 231 755-4663
D-W4600 Dortmund 50       |\|\    Fax : +49 231 755-2386
From: vijay@iitb.ernet.in (Vijay J. Talati)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Upgrading to X11R5 on Sun..
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:17:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay

Date: 27 Aug 92 03:20:30 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug5.063901.12840@iitb.ernet.in>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

Hi,

I have a Sun Sparc running SunOs4.1.1RevB. I have a lower release of
X running on it and i am now thinking of upgrading it to R5.

I have got the sources from mit and i know that it has notes on
installing, but just in case anyone who has done this before and has
few tips then i would like to have them.

Please reply by e-mail.

Thanks,

Vijay
(vijay@gateway.iitb.ernet.in).
From: frite@vlsi.polymtl.ca), (Michel Besner)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Getting Paned Window to tile horizontaly ...
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:01:17 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, lab. INFO

Date: 27 Aug 92 17:06:00 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Aug27.170600.8600@vlsi.polymtl.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x



	Hi there !

		Is it possible to get PanedWindow to lay out children
in a HORIZONTALY tiled format ? I need two frames side by side and
I want to allow the user to resize the two frames with a PanedWindow
or anything similar to it.

	Any suggestions is appreciated :) :)


				Michel Besner, eng.
				Sacred Heart Hospital 
				research center
				Montreal
				mbesner@iris1.metal.polymtl.ca



	"life is a big bowl of Jell-O :) :) ! "
From: david@gdstech.grumman.com (David Nettles)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:26:52 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Grumman Data Systems-Woodbury

Date: 1 Sep 92 14:50:34 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep1.145034.4126@gdstech.grumman.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <NEERI.92Aug25180329@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>In article <id.Q4NS.1SE@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>The Mac GUI is a moderately good one. It used to be quite good (though not up
>>to the quality of the Star), but it's grown a *lot* of chrome in the past 6 or
>>so years.
>
>Gee, if even *Amiga* users start complaining about chrome, maybe it's time for
>Apple to cut back :-)
>
>Matthias
>
>-----
>Matthias Neeracher                                   neeri@iis.ethz.ch
>   "I'm set free to find a new illusion" -- Velvet Underground


What is "chrome"?
-- 
****************************************************************************
   David E. Nettles
   Internet: david@gdstech.grumman.com
   Grumman Data Systems
From: GJAMES@husky1.stmarys.ca (GJames)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: eXodus
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:05:42 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Saint Mary's University

Date: 25 Aug 92 17:00:16 GMT
Message-Id: <GJAMES.125@HUSKY1.STMARYS.CA>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I am running eXodus by White Pine software on my pc. I can connect to a Sun 
W/S and start to run openlook. I get as far as bringing up a menu but if I 
try to run somthing i.e. clock or th e like I get a message from eXodus:

eXodus failed to accept a new client. possibly out of network connections.
	if I look in the help/about eXodus it says 30 of 32 clints free.

	I also get the following message sometimes:
Problem setting default modifier mapping


Any help would be appreciated.