From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Date: 27 Sep 1992 09:08:46 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


> RAL> Wrong, Bill.  The doctor performed the circumcision, not the
> RAL> parents. Thus, the parents didn't circumcise the baby.
>     Neither did they when the Mohel did.  They did however give, or
>     instruct the doctor to preform the circumcision, therefore the
>     doctor was acting in the parents behalf. 

Big difference.  The Mohel was instructed
  (1) to do the circumcision to fulfill "bris milah"
  (2) to do the circumcision at the proper time (8 days or later)

Some mohalim also do non-bris-milah circumcisions, such as for
the British royalty.

The doctor, on the other hand, was (probably) instructed
   (1) to do the circumcision as a medical procedure
   (2) to do it before the 8th day, which doesn't 
       fulfill bris milah (religious circumcision)
   (3) to do the circumcision as a doctor, not as an agent
       on behalf of the mother

>  Heck, half the time
>     liberal Rabbi's don't even require a circumcision for Ger! [Not
>     to say I agree with that].

Well, they're incorrect.  This is a problem with liberal conversions.


> RAL> I already cited for you the section of _Yoreh Deah_, Hilchos
> RAL> Milah, siman reish samech beis, particularly the Turey Zahav on
> RAL> the left.
>     Cited ref.'s that deal with the subject in total of circumcision;
>     while presenting absolutely NO halachah for us on the circumstance
>     of a Jew having had a medical circumcision.  If you have proof,
>     type it out.

As you seem unwilling or unable to check out my sources, here
are a few relevant passages:

We start with a braisa in _Kiddushin_ chaf-tes, "HaAv chayav
b'vno l'molo" (a father is responsible to do bris milah
on his son.)  The source is Abraham circumcising Isaac.

_Yoreh Deah_ _Hilchos Milah_ siman reish samach, starting
"mitzvas asei l'av l'mol es b'no..."  Siman reish samach
aleph, "im lo mal haAv es b'no, chayavim beis din l'molo.
V'im lo miluhu beis din, chayav hu k'sheyigadel l'mol
es atzmo..."  (If the father doesn't do milah on his
son, the rabbinic court must do so.  If the rabbinic
court doesn't do the milah, then the son himself
becomes obligated to do the milah when he becomes
an adult.)  The son can appoint a mohel to do it, if
he's unable to perform it on himself.

What about doing bris milah at the wrong time, such as
before the 8th day, as in medical circumcision?

reish samach beis: "ayn malin ad sh'tneitz hachama b'yom
hashemini l'leydaso..."  (we do not perform milah
until sunrise of the eigth day after birth.)  "ever
umal b'lailah, tzarich lachzor ul'hatif m'at dam bris"
(one who erred and did the milah the evening before
must return and draw a small drop of blood for
the covenant.)

About Bill's discussion of "re-circumcision" we see
in reish samach daled, "...v'im mal, ayn tzarich
lachzor u'l'mol paam shaynis" (and if he is already
circumcised, one need not circumcise him a
second time.)  Clearly, there is no such thing
as "re-circumcision."

What about a child who is circumcised before the eigth
day?  See the r'a'sh , pey tes, shabbos, "katan shenimol
toch shemonah, yiyheh tzarich hatafa kivan sh'haisa 
lo orlah, venimol sh'lo bizmano."  (a baby who was
circumcised within his first eight days, he needs
to have a drop of blood drawn, since it is that he
has no foreskin, and he was circumcised in the wrong time.)

Therefore, a Jewish boy who reached his eighth day lacking a foreskin,
either through having it removed at the wrong time or not being born
with one, must have the "hatafas dam bris" done in lieu of the
circumcision.

This is about 1/1000th of the related material just on the
pages I cited, so it is greatly oversimplified.


>    ...  Heaven knows we've spent plenty of time looking up
>     stuff and responding to you.:-)  Is that too much to ask for you
>     to simply give the specific halachah for us to see, if it is at
>     your disposal?  Would sure be easier than each of us typing page
>     after page of nothing more than our "opinion" <g>.

OK, I've shown you my source.  Now let's see your support for
the contention that a Jew can fulfill bris milah before
the eighth day and through a medical circumcision.  


> Meanwhile - the ger tzaddikim, even if he repents of being Jewish one
> moment after becoming a proselyte, and immediately repents and turns
> again to embrace Judaism, does not need to again go through any
> ceremony.  -...

Well, he needs somehow to establish that he has returned
to Judaism.  He has to tell *someone*.  However, the topic
in question concerns fulfilling the commandment of "bris
milah."

> Show me clear halachah to refute the above, specific to the question
> of medical-circumcision and the Jews - or admit that you opinion is
> no more nor less than mine, - an opinion.

A medical circumcision places the baby boy in the category of
"reached the eighth day and lacks a foreskin" which the above
sources discuss.  Now let's see your sources.

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM