HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 08:52:03 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The B's knees (was "Cabbages..")
              21 Aug 1992 10:32:52 BST from <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC .AC.UK>

On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:32:52 BST Christopher Currie said:
>>
>> Bach (Johann Sebastian, Karl Philipp Emanuel, and Johann Christian) makes
>> three.
>
>How about Wilhelm Friedemann Bach? I make that four.
>
Well, then, how about P.D.Q. Bach?  Or would you consider that a negative
number?  (Actually, considering all the little Bach-lets--or would that be
Baechles?  Never can remember what they call those in Freiburg--you could
make a case for several dozen; an entire chamber orchestra at the very least.)
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:34:00 EDT
From:         U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET
Subject: Re: Of cabbages and kings....

I agree with the John Lennon canonization.  After all he preached peace
and love, and best of all he was gunned down.  Martyrdom allways helps.

                                                Glenn Greene



------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

> Lenny writes:
> Mozart makes a much better saint than Elvis.
>
> John Lennon was better than both.  He had gone into training for the role.
>
> Mario S. De Pillis
From: djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Don Mabry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Of cabbages and kings....
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:13:04 GMT
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	Elvis became a pop culture icon, not just for the United States
but also for many other nations. Why is unclear.
	That the anniversary of his death drew crowds and press notices
on Memphis is hardly surprising since Memphis earns income from the
Elvis phenomenon.
	Country and Western singers are more likely to be Southern, white
heros/heroines than is Elvis.
	Some of you might be interested in two books by Bill Malone:
	American Music, Southern Music
	Country Music, U.S.A.

	For those of you who are interested in the early rock'n'roll
era and how one small record company entered and left the business,
there is an article on Ace Records in the summer, 1990 issue of the
Business History Review.
From: bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US (bob pasker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: bloch's new bio
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:18:06 GMT
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sharon writes:
>even more basic training:
>The Historian's Craft by Marc Bloch (Vintage paperback)

speaking of which, has anyone seen the new biography of marc bloch?
it was on the "scholars choice" table at the PCB, but someone else had
already scarfed it up.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:38:16 GMT

In article <9208170829.aa20468@thama1.apgea.army.mil> ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL writes:
>     I've read at least one article (can't recall the source here at
>     work) that supposed that Columbus' family may have left Spain
>     during Christopher's childhood, owing to persecution, and that he
>     returned as an adult, his non-Catholic origins well obscured.

   I don't know how accurate that account is, but being able to return to
Spain should not have had anything to do with "his non-Catholic origins
[being] well obscured."  The Spanish expulsion of Jews under Ferdinand and
Isabella was concerned only with religion, not ethnicity.  So there would
be no reason that Columbus, a Christian, could not live in Spain, even if
he were of Jewish descent.  In fact, there were even Catholic bishops in
Spain at that time who were of Jewish descent.

   I have read that the trouble between the Spanish rulers and many of the
Conversos (Spanish Jews who converted to Christianity) was that rather than
be expelled from Spain, they had (falsely) professed the Christian Faith;
and so, once "converted," not only failed to live as Christians, but also
proselytized other Conversos back to Judaism.  I believe these were known
as "Judaizers."  The Conversos who had truly converted to Christianity had
no such trouble, as far as I know.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:53:13 -0400
From:         ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      Dan Quayle, Wisdom of

 *** Reply to note of 08/18/92 20:39
 Greetings and Salutations
 Anne,
   I recall the posting, but I found something that is a bit more complete. It
 contains the "1,000 Dumbest Things Ever Said by [modern] Politicians." It is a
 book called _Political Babble_ by David Olive: John Wiley, 1992. There is an
 entire chapter on "Quayludes" in two parts: "In His Own Words" and "What
 Others Say About Him." The book is absolutely hysterical - and it does give
 sources.
   Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon come in for their fair share of
 finger-pointing at their stupidities, as well as other US, Canadian, English,
 and French pols. A good read, taken in small doses.

 |---------------|        To desire the end is to desire the
 |Jim Emmons     |        means; if you are not prepared to do
 |<icjme@asuacad>|        what is necessary to achieve it,
 |---------------|        you never wanted it at all.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:14:22 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

steve creps writes:
>In fact, there were even Catholic bishops in
>Spain at that time who were of Jewish descent.

aside from those descended from the pagans who converted to
christianity, i would imagine that this is true for most christians:-) !

>   I have read that the trouble between the Spanish rulers and many of the
>Conversos (Spanish Jews who converted to Christianity) was that rather than
>be expelled from Spain, they had (falsely) professed the Christian Faith;
>and so, once "converted," not only failed to live as Christians, but also
>proselytized other Conversos back to Judaism.  I believe these were known
>as "Judaizers."  The Conversos who had truly converted to Christianity had
>no such trouble, as far as I know.

perhaps you are refering to the so-called "crypto-jews?"  some of them
migrated to mexico (and therefore texas) and eventually returned to
living as jews; not that they were open about it, mind you--mexico
was/is still quite catholic--but they stopped professing to be
christians.

there is evidence (again, see rader) that one of the reasons for
expelling the jews from spain was to diminish their influence on the
jews who had converted to christianity, which jives with your
understanding.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:10:17 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Columbus Jewish?
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>In the article "The Enigma of
>Cristobal Colon," Sidney J. Jacobs argues that Columbus may have been
>very much aware of his Jewishness. He cites Columbus's scheduling of his sailin
>g date to avoid a Jewish holiday, his ties to Jewish and Converso
>associates and supporters, his practice of placing the Hebrew letters
>BETH and HE (said to be an abbreviation for a traditional Hebrew
>salutation "Praised be God") above the first word in each of his
>letters to his son, and supposed cabalistic references in his
>elaborate signature. Does anyone know this article, or is anyone aware of
>this line of argument? It involves much more than the idea that some
>of Columbus's ancestors may have been Jewish.

see the first chapter of jacob marcus rader, _The Colonial American
Jew, 1492-1776_, Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1970, for a
refutation of this argument.  _american jewish history_ and _american
jewish archives_, the two scholarly journals of jewish american
history, have both published more recent articles on this topic.

racist liars like farrakhan are using this line of reasoning to turn
the fleeing jews into monsters who destroyed american indian culture
and initiated the slavery of africans.  caveat lector.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:29:54 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
              19 Aug 1992 23:00:53 PDT from <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA. US>

On Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:00:53 PDT bob pasker said:
>
>sorry lynn, everyone knows the three Bs are: bach, beethoven, brahms,
>bartok, and brubeck.
>
You forgot Billy Byrd, who definitely goes toward the top of that list.

>diderik buxtehude (1637-1707) is chiefly remembered (if at all) for
>his organ works. ball is not listed in my brittanica, larousse, nor
>osborne dicitonary of composers.
>
"(if at all)"???  I assure you that the memory of Buxtehude is still ever
green among early music fans.
From: stevenz@EQUINOX.UNR.EDU (Steven D. Zink)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: bibliographic citation needed
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:24:11 GMT
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In hopes that someone out there has a copy of the following on
their office shelf.

I need a bibliographic citation from Garraty's QUARRELS THAT HAVE
SHAPED THE CONSTITUTION.  Specifically, I need a citation to the
following essay contained in that volume (the 1975 Harper Torchbooks
edition):

R.W. Apple, "The Case of the Monopolistic Railroad Men"
I need the inclusive pages of this essay.

Many thanks.

Steve Zink
Univ. of Nevada, Reno
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:41:44 EDT
From:         cvr <CRANDLE@UTCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: SEALED ROOM; is this suitable for History?

Dr. Werman, your book sounds fascinating.  Where can we get a copy? One of the
tutors in our lab at UT-Chattanooga is originally from Israel and she came in
to work one day quite upset. She was talking to her family on the phone the
night before and she could hear the air rade sirens in the background.  Their
conversation was cut short because her family had to donn face masks in
preparation for an attack. Scary, isn't it? It was days before this girl could
find out if her family was ok. It turned out that they were.       I am
also interested in communicating with Americans in Iran during the late
1970's and early 80's.  Do you know anyone or have any suggestions?
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Return-Path: <pietrzyk@a1.quaker.upenn.edu>
Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 V2.3 BL8-4 Rev. AAC 20-Dec-1988
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:29:01 -0400
From:         "Gail M. Pietrzyk" <pietrzyk@A1.QUAKER.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: "On the first anniversary..."

>        Well, if what is happening in what used to be Yugoslavia is any guide,
>it seems like a good time read up on the expansion of the Russian Empire under
>the Tsars into all those states which are breaking away, and also on how they
>were dealt with during their years in the union. Anyone have any suggestions
>on bilbliography for those of us whose C19-C20 Russian history is a little
>thin in the "nationalities" question? (So that we don't make total idiots
>out of ourselves with unsupported assertions..)

>        Mike Cosgrave

Get a copy of the Spring 1992 issue of _Daedalus_.  The essays are on the
theme of The Exit from Communism, and provide some good, accessible reading
on the nationalities questions.
In particular, see Victor Zaslavsky, "Nationalism and Democratic Transition
in Postcommunist Societies,"  and Ivo Banac, " The Fearful Asymmetry of
War: The Causes and Consquences of Yugoslavia's Demise,"

Also read Gogol's _Dead Souls_.  There is much to learn from fiction.


Gail Pietrzyk
University of Pennsylvania Archives
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From: SCHRIBER@RHODES.BITNET (Carolyn Schriber)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Of cabbages and kings....
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:02:04 GMT
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Having just lived through the annual "Elvis Week" here in Memphis, I have to
agree with Don Mabry when he questions the labelling of Elvis as a "saint for
white southerners."  No, I did not participate in the midnight candle vigil
at the gravesight, and I stayed as far away as possible from Elvis Presley
Blvd.  But the coverage by the news media was ever pervasive.  One of the
things that most impressed me was the ecumenical nature of the crowd--blacks
as well as whites; students from Germany; a whole delegation from Canada, etc.
Still, I think there is a case to be made for a parallel between the Elvis
phenomenon and medieval saints' cults--the candles, the prayers, the petitions
written on the walls around Graceland, even the black velvet paintings.
Carolyn Schriber
Rhodes College
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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 10:34:26 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: _Sealed Room_ advertisement
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              14, 92 8:47 pm

>
> Both the Koren and the Werman diaries are archived on Ra.Msstate.Edu
> in docs/history/diaries.
>

If this sort of thing (advertising one's book) is acceptable on this
list, I am sure there are many on this list who are themselves authors
and/or know authors of recent books which are a 'must read' (myself
included - knowing books which are a 'must read', I mean...) Shall
we start to advertise away..?
AK
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:19:22 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....
Comments: To: History <HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
              21 Aug 1992 12:19:00 EDT from
              <DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>

Am I the only one who wonders why the dominant direction of "cultural
borrowing" of music with commercial potential is from blacks to whites?

Rock was not the first instance of white guys profiting from the music
of black performers; jazz would serve as historically recent example.
    Cal
========================================================================
On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:19:00 EDT <DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU> said:
>Yes -- although  to call cultural borrowings "ripping off" may
>not be quite right.
>
>To my untrained ear, white gospel, black gospel, boogie woogie,
>and rhythm & blues sound like variations in the same musical
>family.
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:48:53 EDT
From:         Robert Holder <robert@WHIPLASH.ER.USGS.GOV>
Subject:      Re: list of conflicts
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

there is a good book by James F. Dunnigan called
"A Quick and Dirty Guide to War"  which was recently (1991?)
revised and released as a new edition.

It contains capsule discussions by region of the current
and potential wars across the globe, along with Dunnigan's
top five or ten guesses (with percent chance rankings) as
to what the probable near term outcome will be.  There is
a regular format to each section.  It is not up to the
minute, but it gives good background and Dunnigan seems to
really know his stuff.  He is also very readable.

Make sure you get the latest edition, though, because the
one before that was from 1984 or so.  I think the latest
edition has a black and red cover with a tank on it...?
In any case it has the words "REVISED & UPDATED" (or some
similiar thing) on the cover... hope that helps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       unix beast wrassler  us geological survey        ~
~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov  st petersburg florida usa ~
~ FREEDOM HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN EXPENSIVE THING dr m l king ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~namaste~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:31:49 EST
From:         Tom <RICKS@VILLVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: _Sealed Room_ advertisement
              14 Aug 1992 14:46:47 EDT from <DONWEBB@VM.UOGUELPH.CA>

Bob-Your personal account of living through the scud attacks will be of interes
t to another generation, ie, an eyewitness account of an American Israeli. I wo
uld not list it on a "history" reading list; rather, it might go best on a poli
tical science syllabus on "contemporary Israel and the Middle East". Any chance
 that you might try to experience the West Bank "sealed room" and how Palestini
ans feel about Israelis and about the Gulf War?

Thanks for the posting,

Tom
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:11:49 EDT
From:         Tom Powers <TPOWERS@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Basic Training

The request for "basic training" books in methodology and historiography
 requested that answers be made privately. Why? I'm sure there are many
 on a board like this who could benefit from seeing what others favor.
Why not make some public responses as well?
     Does anyone have some favorites they use for classes?
     For first-timers, I use Benjamin's A STUDENT'S GUIDE TO HISTORY.
From time to time, I also favor Davidson and Lytle's AFTER THE FACT. I
don't teach much above that level, but I'd still be interested in seeing
 what other people use, and what others would recommend in response to
requests like this.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:20:40 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

In article <01GNG82S3KPG8WVYZ7@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>, FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU writes:
> Tom:  Skip it.  What possible difference could it make?  Except to re-
> generate some kind of racial slant to the st{ry which won't serve any-
> one well.
> Steve

	Well, it would add an ironic twist to those who argue that 
Christopher ("Christ-bearer") Columbus was consciously or subconsciously 
carrying the weight of the evangelistic Christian message to the New 
World.  Seems to me, in that sense, that the question of his Jewishness (ethnic
or religious) might be important or at least interesting to probe.  


Thomas Beaudoin
Lee's Summit High School
Lee's Summit, MO

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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:51:00 EST
From:         RATH@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Of cabbages and kings....

        Cal <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> said:

|Am I the only one who wonders why the dominant direction of "cultural
|borrowing" of music with commercial potential is from blacks to whites?

perhaps because when whites "borrowed, it was free and there was no
obligation to return anything, but if blacks wanted to "borrow" the
interest was steep.  Two examples come to mind are the songs
"Crossroads" and "Love in vain," which have copyrights credited
to Eric Clapton and Jagger/Richards, respectively.  Both are
direct lifts of lyrics to Robert Johnson songs.  Robert got about 20 to 50
bucks, half a buzz, and a night with a prostitute from his white
recorders (Lomax?) and he knew he was getting a bum deal, but he also knew
it was the best one going.  Lomax thought Robert was trying to take
advantage of him.  Eric, Mick and Keith have all paid lip service to Mr.
Johnson, and made tidy sums of royalties from their "borrowings."
Best,
Rich Rath

|
|Rock was not the first instance of white guys profiting from the music
|of black performers; jazz would serve as historically recent example.
|    Cal
========================================================================

========================================================================
On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:19:00 EDT <DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU> said:
>Yes -- although  to call cultural borrowings "ripping off" may
>not be quite right.
>
>To my untrained ear, white gospel, black gospel, boogie woogie,
>and rhythm & blues sound like variations in the same musical
>family.
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:17:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?

On Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:05:00 EST ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL said:

>      So Columbus' ancestors, if
>      in fact Jewish, would not have had to leave Spain much before
>      1492.

But Columbus's immediate family was from Genoa, not Spain.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:26:43 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Columbus Jewish?
              14 Aug 1992 10:47:00 EDT from <U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET>

An expulsion of Jews took place immediately before The Admiral set sail.
In face, the last ship of Jews sailed down the river with him, having
waited for the same tide which launched the expedition.  On reaching the
sea, the Jews' ship turned to port, heading for Africa.  The Admiral
sailed straight, heading for destiny.

If I were a painter, I would like to paint that scene, because it captures
in one instant all that is good and all that is evil in man.

No flames will be accepted on this message, because you all know what I
am saying, and we need not fight for a week to agree on our positions.

Lenny
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