From: sbrack@jupiter.cse.UTOLEDO.edu (Steven S. Brack)
Subject: Re: [news.admin]  Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Originator: daemon@eff.org
Organization: EFF mail-news gateway
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 08:41:21 GMT

: From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
: Newsgroups: news.admin
: Subject:  Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
: Message-ID: <3716@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca>
: Date: 14 Aug 92 03:36:23 GMT
: 
: In article <920811.1523457463@foucault.postmodern.com> mcb@foucault.postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes:
: >I've stayed out of this so far, but I don't think you understand how
: >offensive I (and others) find the above paragraph.  I have absolutely
: >no interest in any cooperation, no matter how slight, with any form of
: >state censorship.  I believe that censorship is not merely evil but Evil, 
: >and if your government gives you problems about that, I think you
: >should oppose them.
: 
: For a person who is usually relatively well informed, this is a remarkably
: *stupid* and insulting remark.

	It does no good commit the same acts yourself you find abhorrent
	in others.  
: 
: In case you missed it, Canada is not only a democracy, but these laws
: enjoy the overwhelming support of the entire country.  State censorship?
: Bullshit.  The state is us.  Evil?  You're calling the entire country evil.
: At least Reagan had the sense to try to back out of his "evil empire"
: remark, and his remark had a lot more validity than yours.

	No one said Canada was evil.  What was said only shows the evil
	of a system of censorship.

: And why should I, or anybody else bust their butt to "save" crap like
: this?  Crap who's only legacy is oppression, misery or even death [ie:
: Keegstra or Zundel].

	Because that's a person's opinion, who is free to hold that opinion.
	Because now, the censors are coming for those of "unacceptable" 
	sexuality.  Who will speak up when the censors come after unacceptable
	politics? unacceptable religions? races?  As Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.
	said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." 

: >I have no interest in giving even trivial respect
: >to Canadian laws that restrict freedom of expression.
: 
: How about a little respect for the desires, laws and traditions of
: other countries?

	A country can only desire what its majority desires.  Do you
	advocate we ignore minority groups' right to express their
	opinion?  
  
: >I consider them
: >an offense to human rights and urge you to oppose them, to struggle
: >against them, to rise up and dismantle the institutions that
: >implement them, by means of the ballot, by means of protest, civil
: >disobedience, demonstration, samizdat, interference, and unblinking 
: >opposition.
: 
: Why?  So a couple of morons get to jack off in from of their computer
: terminals?  So that I have to *pay* for this shit?

	Weren't you complaining about "stupid and insulting" remarks?
	I find your comment to be highly insulting.  That you deem yourself
	judge of appropriateness for me, or for anyone else, is appalling.
	It's Hitleresque. 
  
: >And to that end I believe that it is not only a right but a duty of
: >Americans to make it as difficult as possible for Canadian (or any
: >other state's) censors to do their job.
: 
: Oh great.  You gonna try to invade again?  Go "save" somebody else.
: We're simply not interested in what you're selling.  We whupped you
: last time you tried.

	If you're still smarting over 1812, you need to get on with your
	life.  All he said was that Americans have an obligation not to
	knuckle under to the pressure of the censors.
  
: Shows what little you know.

	If you can't have a rational discussion, then you'd best not be 
	involed in the discussion. 

: The Ontario Film Review Board does not
: censor movies.  Hasn't for a number of years.  It now only provides
: ratings.  ["anne.jones" notwithstanding ;-)]

	Many people consider film ratings to be a form of censorship.

	e.g.: Film Board gives move a bad rating, like "R" in this country.
	      Movie houses don't show it, 'cuz it has an "R" rating.
	      Persons under 17 are prohibited from seeing it.  That's
	      censorship.

: >So if censorship (and pressures to resist it, i.e., by cross-border sites
: >that send you "illegal" material) gives you a problem, get on your
: >MLA's case.  Don't come whining to Americans telling us to cool it; I
: >think instead we should turn up the heat. 
: 
: So you have just gotta save us from ourselves.

	Puh-leeze!  Your inflammatory remarks really won't help. 

: Save us from evangelical Americans who simply cannot accept that there are
: ways, *viable* ways, other than theirs.

	I don't accept that the government needs to "save" me from seeing
	whatever material I *choose* to see.  Few rational people would.

: It's attitudes like this that make the term "ugly american" so appropriate.

	And, in turn, it's attitudes like these that cause Americans to  
	believe, equally as unjustified, in the rudeness & snobbery of
	foreigners. 

: MLAs?  More ignorance.  MPs.
: MLAs are the term for some provincial politicians.  This issue is federal.

	But did the province or the feds get upset?
	
	
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