HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Summary: Not so sure myself
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:20:58 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1992Dec8.162158.4990@wri.com> novak@wri.com (John M. Novak) writes:
>In article <9212081258.AA00549@it122.dcs.qmw.ac.uk> winston@dcs.qmw.ac.UK
>writes:
>>[... material indicating that Heinlein wasn't PC...]

>Multi-ethnic : his characters are from a variety of ethnicities (for example,
>_Time Enough for Love_, where the Longs are on Boondock discussing the bad old
>days, or _Starship Troopers_ (Juan Rico was Phillipino (sp?)), or many, many
>others...

Just one little quibble - his characters are occasionally Not White (tm)
eg The Moon is a Harsh Mistress but they are uniformly culturally white.
I am not aware of a single (positive) character in any of his books who
could not be accurately described as a WASP American. If they are not
WASP's then it is incidental. It is almost unthinkable for one of his
characters to be a Moslem or to speak English badly or to oppose women's
right to walk unveiled and so on. Just think of Juan Rico mentioned above,
could you imagine him ever critising the United State for the wholesale
massacres commited there by the US Army?

>Non-discriminatory (sexuality or gender) : sure, his women like men; but they
>are still intelligent and tough (I, for one, would not like to mess with Deety,
>unless I wanted to end up disabled...).

I wouldn't go too far with his women. Sure they aren't all complete losses as
people but they are usually the exception. Also what I said above applies even
stronger here - could you imagine Deety wanting to wear a veil for instance?
The experience of 90% of the women who ever lived is beyond him. He can only
think in stereotypes in this case the pioneer woman who stays behind and looks
after things while her man is out killing Indians. Not bad as stereotypes go
but still not good.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 23:29:07 GMT

May I remind everyone that I first crossposted this to the skeptic and
physics groups when the Dean Drive was mentioned.  If you're not going to
mention it, please take those two groups (and probably .sf.science too) _out_
of the header....
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Neuroclinical Trials Center, University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 12:48:41 GMT

In article <6263@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>From article <1992Dec28.101746.16258@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr):
>> While you make some good points (and as we stray farther afield here...)
>> I think you are missing a fundamental point about cannon versus
>> non-cannon works
>
>Caliber?

Yes, yes, yes... I misspelled canon.  How clever of you to notice.

>
>-- 
>Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
>University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
>Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst

	-Phil
-- 
PHIL SCARR        \      We are Microsoft...     /          (o) 804.243.0229
 University of    /     OS/2 is irrelevant.      \          (f) 804.243.0290
 Virginia,        \     UNIX is irrelevant.      /        prs9k@Virginia.EDU
 Neurosurgery     /     Openness is futile.      \     prs9k@Virginia.BITNET
 HP-UX is my life!\ Prepare to be assimilated... /   ...uunet!virginia!prs9k

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 04:00:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.130240.1991@math.ucla.edu> dstein@charon.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:
>  Second, the comparison does not prove that Campbell _did_ influence the 
>  quality of SF decisively and positively.

Actually, influence is a fuzzy concept.  Suppose I grant that Campbell was
responsible for many positive things about science fiction today.  But suppose
I also consider some of the things he brought to science fiction negative.
How do I balance those off?  Does scientific accuracy count as much as human
supremacy?  Can I trade you two real-world psi stories and an early Dianetics
for one quantum of plot and characterization, like baseball cards?

Even if Campbell _did_ do lots of good, he did enough bad that we might very
well have been better off overall without him....
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: herbert@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  Name this Book.....*pleeezze!*
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:36:30 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

...Sounds kind of like "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman, but it sounds
more like "Bill the Galactic Hero" by ??? Harrison (?) (I can't remember
the author).  It's the funny part that tips you off
From: w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Geoffrey Landis/SF Age #2
Date: 21 DEC 92 08:29:01 GMT
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
NNTP-Posting-Host: msnews.wustl.edu

Geoffry Landis had an excellent short story in the December Science
Fiction Age (#2) entitled "The Cost of Styxite".

Is anyone here familiar with anything else he has written?  This is the
first of his work I have come across.

JC



_______________________________________________________________

Jim Cook
W95_COOK@wums.wustl.edu

_______________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  SF + PC
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 31 Dec 92 13:41:17 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <8235@lib.tmc.edu> drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.101746.16258@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by
>prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>> While you make some good points (and as we stray farther afield here...)
>> I think you are missing a fundamental point about cannon versus
>> non-cannon works
>
>What is this literary cannon I keep reading about? Is it the one Jules Verne
>invented to fire a projectile to the Moon? Maybe it's the one Wells' Martians
>used to invade the Earth.

No, it's a device for launching guided missals.


--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......

"I blame you for the moonlit sky and the dream that died with the Eagle's flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights when I wonder why are the seas still dry
Don't blame me, sleeping satellite"                              (Tasmin Archer)

--

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: "jonathan forbes" <jonathan.forbes@canrem.com>
Subject: niven/mote in god's eye
Reply-To: "jonathan forbes" <jonathan.forbes@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 27 Dec 92 01:24:36 EST

-> \/   Like strategic interstellar conquest games?  Ask about UNIVERSE!
-> \__/

This may be slightly off topic, but what's Universe?
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: On the useful ness of Canons (wasRe: SF + PC
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 05:23:08 GMT

On the chosing of canons, or booklists, or preferred reading
lists, or ten best works of all time, or whatever .. a point
has been missed.

A proffesor of my once related how his class at 
Uncle Sam's School for Wayward Boys had been required
to produce a weekly critique of a current work of
fiction off the top ten list.  After several weeks
of trying to fill 3 pages with 'something' they were
essentially handed the 'classics' and told to do likewise.

Then it was a breeze: there was character development, etc
etc.  try and keep it to three pages.

The purpose of a reading list is to tell others what
"We" (royal/editorial 'we') consider to be an excellent
example of the genre: be is SF, English Lit, Welsh peoms
or the Marvel Comicbook Universe.

I will nominate a list that varies from day to day,
person to person, rationale to reason.  A top ten
list for SF would include heinlein, haldeman, blish
and ing.  A top ten list for english lit would drop the
bottom eight or nine to include some other works.
A top ten for the western world might drop all the 
'fiction' for a list of non-fiction.  The ten books I'd
take on a long voyage are not the ten I'd take if the 
voyage was to the moon, or into my bombshelter or desert
island.

if I want 'morally uplifting works' I'd be hard pressed
to list them, because I do not classify works into 
uplifting/ non-edifying.  If I'd want tech reference I
would have to go with other's recomendation as I am not
overly technically minded myself.

chus
pyotr



-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Months Panel Topic: Graft - boon or blessing?
EOF
-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Months Panel Topic: Graft - boon or blessing?
EOF
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: JW Campbell, Arcot,Wade,Morey Stories
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:26:01 GMT

In article <Bzn10F.4Hr@Novell.COM> Mark_Dakins@Novell.COM (Mark Dakins) writes:
>Someone posted a mention of John W Campbell's Arcot, Wade, and Morey
>space opera stories a few days ago.  The posting I am refering to
>said that there were a trilogy of these stories.  I have always thought
>that I was missing one or perhaps two of a set of four or five.
>I have _The Black Star Passes_, _Islands of Space_, and 
>_Invaders from the Infinite_.  Because of the lists of "other"
>John W Campbell books listed inside each of these I have believed
>that _The Mightiest Machine_ and possibly _The Planeteers & The
>Ultimate Weapon_ were also part of this series.  Is this true or
>false and, if false, what are these later two about?  Thanks.

As far as I know, the A/W/M stories form a trilogy, and I've never heard
of other stories in the series.

_The_Mightiest_Machine_ is the same sort of story, different universe.
In testing a new spaceship, our heroes have an interaction between their
ship systems and a random piece of space junk, and are dropped between
universes into a universe that tends to collect such things (having an
impossibly large star).  They then make contact with descendants of an
earlier such accident, fight a superscientific war with descendants of
another such accident, and head home.

_The_Planeteers_ is a series of shorts involving a couple of scientists
who invent a nuclear spaceship and are chased off Earth, and are bumming
around the Solar System until their lawyers can convince people that
muclear power can be safe.  Each place they land, they run into a serious
problem they have to solve in order to survive and/or leave.  There are
continuity errors.  My copy of this is an Ace double with...

_The_Ultimate_Weapon_, which is similar in some respects to _The_Black_
_Star_Passes_, in that folks from another star system attack the solar
system, and the protagonists have to figure out how to defeat their
weapons and them.

In general, these stories are fairly similar.  If you like one, you'll
probably like all of them.

DHT


Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16859 rec.arts.books:23641
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Date: 21 Dec 1992 17:25:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Timothy Zahn
Lewis Shiner
Jack L. Chalker
Bruce Sterling
Greg Bear
Barry B. Longyear
Pat Murphy
Pat Cadigan
Lucius Shepard
Connie Willis
Kim Stanley Robinson
Michael Swanwick
Gardner Dozois (fiction, not anthologies)\
Jack Dann (ditto)
Ed Bryant
George R.R. Martin
Dan Simmons
Harlan Ellison
Gregory Benford
Howard Waldrop
Hal Clement
Charles Sheffield
Lois McMaster Bujold
Michael P. Kube-MacDowell
Walter Jon Williams
Judith Moffet
Nancy Kress
Harry Turtledove (not shared universe stuff)
David Brin\
Orson Scott Card
John Varley
Ian MacDonald
Tim Powers
Joe Haldeman
James P. Blaylock
John Kessel
James Patrick Kelley
	A lot of these authors are short story writers, rather
 than novelists, so this becomes an auto-read than an auto buy list.

Mark_Stackpole@oclc.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: D. Jay Newman <dn5@apix.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Macavoy
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A75B8963D9013BCA@magic.psu.edu>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 21 Dec 92 14:46:59 GMT
Organization: Penn State
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 19:47:58 GMT

In article <9212161036.AA01294@rutgers.edu> Sara Beck,
BECKS@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL writes:
>This is an unabashed rave for R.A. Macavoy and the "Lens of the World"
>trilogy, of which the second book , "King of the Dead", is out in
hardcover.

Actually, I bought and read the paperback last month!  I truely feel that
R. A. Macavoy is one of the best authors of this century!  I can't rave
enough about her writings.

Its not your basic fantasy novel, but then I've come to expect much more
than that from her.  I started with _Tea with the Black Dragon_, and was
extremely pleasantly surprised at how good it was, despite the fact that
it followed NONE of my expectations.

()()()()()()()()()()()()() CBEL--Teaching & Learning Technologies ()()()
D. Jay Newman     !  Cautious, careful people always casting about to
dn5@psuvm.psu.edu !  preserve their reputation and social standing never
dn5@apix.psu.edu  !  can bring about a reform.  -- Susan B. Anthony
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcharbon@athena.mit.edu (Ray Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Auto-buy lists
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:24:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.033116.4735@u.washington.edu>, whit@carson.u.washington.edu (John Whitmore) writes:
|> In article <urf.724794299@sw2001> urf@icl.se (Urban F) writes:
|> >kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:
|> 
|> >It was even worse than that. _Descent of Anansi_ should have taught
|> >me that Niven collaborations with someone else than Pournelle often
|> >turn out to be bad.

_Dream Park_ was fun, but other than that, you're right.  _Achilles' Breasts_ (or
whatever) was the biggest rip-off I've bought in some time.

...

|> 
|> 	It was _Descent of Anansi_ that got me to buy the rest of
|> the Barnes works I've been able to locate... and I'm still buying
|> them.  _The Kundalini Equation_ was pretty good, too.

You couldn't have read _Street Lethal_.

-- 
Ray Charbonneau              | The fifth dentist makes all the money.
rcharbon@athena.mit.edu      |             -- me
MIT and the Library Systems Office are glad that I'm posting my opinions
here so that they don't have to listen to them anymore.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:03:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.165317.22720@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE) writes:
>Why doesn't someone write a book about what happens if we DO toss out the
>DWEMs? A society in which the contributions of all dwems are regarded as
>flawed, since "everyone knows it's a man's world-- and look what they've done
>to it?"  

Someone did:   D. Keith Mano, _The Bridge_.  It's long out of print,
but you might find it in a used book store.

I don't think it's too great a spoiler to say "Imagine Jonestown
on a global scale..."

-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 24 Dec 1992 19:26:24 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


The Moslem character in "Stranger in a Strange Land" is named
Mahmoud (nicknamed "Stinky" by his friends from the Mars
expedition.  The Islamic religion is discussed respectfully and
Mahmoud eventually finds a way to reconcile his attachment to
Mike's new "religion" with his old faith (at least to his own
satisfaction).

As for other non-WASP characters who speak poor English, at
least one comes to mind; the ethnic Chinese restaurant owner
in BETWEEN PLANETS, who is killed resisting the Earth takeover
of Venus.  Of course, there is something of a double bind here;
if Heinlein had had a LOT of ethnic characters speaking poor
English, he undoubtedly would have been denounced (and banned
from school libraries) for promoting racial stereotypes...

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Cleveland Free-Net Science Fiction
& Fantasy SIG (aa396)
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: 23 Dec 92 07:57:00 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

wpwood@queball.austin.ibm.com (Bill Woodward) writes:

> That's right, _Dream_Park_, _Barsoom_Project_, and one other in the same
> universe were exclusively Niven and Barnes.  I have both these books and
> have tried to read them several times, but they just don't grab my att-
> ention.  I didn't care for the short story, _Locusts_, either, which
> was a Niven story that Barnes finished for him.

Could the other one be _Descent of Anansi_?  Actually, it's interesting, 
as it's never directly pointed out that these are in the same Universe 
(except for obvious similiarities).  I thought _Descent_ was a _great_ 
novel.

I enjoyed "Locusts," as well.  Maybe I didn't think it was powerful as 
_I_ could have made it.  :-)



  ____  Erik Max Francis -- ..!apple!uuwest!max -- max@west.darkside.com   __
  \  /  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1  San Jose, CA  95117  37 20 N 121 53 W  ACGT  /  \
   \/   Like strategic interstellar conquest games?  Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
        Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.   All things that are, are lights.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Sci-Fi & merit
Organization: The Ohio State University
     What is it for a sci-fi work to have merit? In order to answer this 
     First, we must determine whether merit is subjective or objective. It is 
     Second, the nature of merit needs to be worked out. Some aspects of merit 
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:40:27 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 08:47:22 GMT

Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian):
>Eric Frank Russell novelette, circa 1950... The anarchists' motto
>is MYOB (Mind your own business) and they drive the Earth crew bananas...

"The Great Explosion" is a set of linked stories about a ship attempting
to recontact planets that have developed...strangely...in their isolation.
I think the story to which you refer is titled "And Then There Were None."

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

"One of my favorite games when I was a kid was 'murder/suicide.'
 Dad would show us a photo and ask us, "Is it a murder or a suicide?"
	  --  Colleen Doran

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in S.F.
Keywords: Anarchy
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:56:30 GMT

In article <BzIG2K.3xD@world.std.com> rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) writes:
>I can think of two SF novels that have anarchy or anarchic societies as a
>theme and context. They are:
>
>	THE DISPOSSESSED by U.LaGuin
>	INHERIT THE STARS by Hogan
>
>Can you good folks think of any others?
>

_Agents of Chaos_ by Norman Spinrad
From: rod@cats.ucsc.edu (Rodrick Su)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: SF Islamic deficient?(was Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?)
Date: 25 Dec 1992 01:59:11 GMT
Organization: Tigana Restoration Inc.
Distribution: USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Dec24.180756.24259@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>Sf is generally Islam-deficient....actually, there aren't a lot of believers
>(in any religion) in sf. The only sf novel I can think of off-hand that
>was set in an Islamic culture was David Moffit's _Crescent in the Sky_/
>_A Gathering of Stars_, and I found the lack of people who were actually
>religious pretty irritating. (I think that when a religion becomes dominant,
>many (perhaps most) of the people in it will be there for habitual/pragmatic
>reasons, but there will still be some believers.)
>

	For more Islamic(somewhat) SF, there is George Alec Effinger's
excellent Budayeen Trilogy, which take place in a unnamed North Africa  city
100 to 200 years in the future.  True, most of the character would have been
consider deficient in their observence of Islamic laws, there are true
believers in this series.
-- 
[ Rodrick Su           [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for    ]
[----------------------[ skydiving.                                          ]
[ rod@cats.ucsc.edu    ]------------------------[ ``Games of the Hangman''   ] 
[ rod@ucscb.ucsc.edu   ]------------------------[   Victor O'Reilly          ]