HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Kahane's philosophy
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:36:45 GMT

In article <Bz0nzL.ICM@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A
Shnekendorf) writes:

|>>I just remember what a mass it became when the Rabbi was about to loose his 
|>>american passport, some years ago...
|>
|>>Why is an advocate of "all jews to israel" so keen about keeping his
|>american
|>>citizenship? Couldn't he visit america as a proud citizen of Israel? 
|>
|>Probably to make his frequent travel to the U.S. easier.  What is the point
|>of
|>this argument?  Are you trying somehow to prove that since Kahane had dual 
|>citizenship he didn't really advocate all Jews to Israel?
|>
|>>Wasnt it A PART OF THE PROBLEM that too many jews had other citizenships?
|>
|>no.

Since Israel is the only nationality which the US allows it's citizens to aquire
without losing US citizenship there has always been a problem with American
imigrants to Israel who were quite happy to vote for an extreemist line but
always knew that they had a safe bolthole to run to if things got nasty.

There are a number of countries from which it is possible to aquire US
citizenship without loosing the original citizenship though. The UK for example
does not recognise renunciation of citizenship if it was required to aquire
another citizenship.

Personaly I think that the descrepancy should be fixed, but in favour of giving
everybody the same rights. If someone has one parent who is a British national
and another who is a US national then it seems resonable to allow them to chose
to spend a period of say ten years living in Europe, go back to the US, for a
few years, return to Europe etc without having the petty nationalists sticking
their noses into the issue. This is of course what heppens in practice but the
rules are different.

The rules for the likes of Kahane though should be different. If someone is
banging on the nationalist drum then they should at least ensure that they know
which nationalist drum they are banging. Cynical politicians like Kahane who
exploit and play on xenophobia should be held accountable to their own standards
that they set. 

Kahane having a US passport was a bit like "Oral" Roberts having extramarital
affairs, not so much something to bring the man down but for the public image
that the man created of himself.

Personaly I think that Kahane might as well have been working in the pay of
Saudi Arabia or some other foreign power, for all the damage that his campagins
did for Israel's image abroad. Rumour has it that old Nick is planning to chain
ARF to him when he finaly pops his clogs...


--

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Targetting civilians
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:59:46 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <42392@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
>	It has indeed been emphasized that Islam calls for the respect of
>	innocent civilian lives.  This may explain why, as Scuds 
>        rained down on Israel, TV cameras captured Palestinians
>        jumping up and down on rooftops yelling, "This is a
>        sacrilege!"
 

If you are suggesting that Saddam's call for 'holy war' (i.e. jihad)
applies here, you are wrong.  Saddam did not have the authority under
Islamic law to declare jihad, and furthermore, Islam does not have
anything to do with the Gulf War, Scuds, or Palestinians.  I'm tired
of seeing these cheap shots and ignorant remarks just to incite people.

At it again Ron, or don't you have anything creative to say?

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Pollard & Jewish Terrorism
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:16:39 GMT

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

 MIK> Your repeated charges that Jonathan Pollard supports
 MIK> terrorism are not well documented as you repeatedly claim.
 MIK> They are simply flimsy inuendos.  And you have provided NO
 MIK> documentation for this accusation.

Your statement is false. I provided full documentation for the
charge. Robert Friedman in the New York Review of Books quoted
from a letter written by Pollard.

Are you suggesting that Robert Friedman, a respected journalist
with an international reputation, is a liar, that he made up
quotes from Pollard that don't exist, and that The New York
Review of Books printed these lies?

<o>#clip

<doctype>book review
<author>Friedman, Robert I.
<serial>The New York Review of Books
<date>October 26, 1989
<vol>36
<num>16
<pages>8(4)
<book author>Blitzer, Wolf
<book title>Territory of Lies: The Exclusive Story of Jonathan
Jay Pollard

<excerpt>

     Given Pollard's extreme views, it is not surprising that he
     has been in touch with radical right-wing Jewish
     organizations in Israel and America. In a letter to Yisrael
     Medad, the American-born aide to Knesset member Geula Cohen
     of the ultra-right-wing Tehiya party, Pollard praises the
     Gush Emunim "patriots" who blew the legs off two pro-PLO
     West Bank mayors in 1980 car bombings. He only regretted
     that the Jewish terrorists did "half a job." Pollard also
     asks Medad to pass along his personal regards to several
     Gush terrorists still in prison.

</o>
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Practicing what is preached, Part III
Date: 20 Dec 92 02:41:06 GMT


<1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
...  I do know that numerous
PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities
not for being collaborators - which they're not - but just for speaking
something that some party or other doesn't approve of.

In article <23075@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
This often repeated claim is absolute nonsense, completely untrue. .
. .  Can you provide us ONE (1) example of a PLO-affiliated activist
who did no more than state a slightly non-standard opinion, and as a
consequence was forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities?

	Absolute nonsense?  Completely untrue?   Often repeated?
	Let's be merciful and focus just on "often repeated".
	Where is the evidence that this claim has been repeated
	often?  Where is the evidence that this claim has 
	been made even by a single additional person?
	
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deporting "Agitators"
Date: 14 Dec 92 06:09:54 GMT

<Bz8Gx7.I51@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>I didn't say that Netanyahu called for the deportation of ALL
>Palestinians or THE Palestinians. I said "Palestinians"--SOME
>Palestinians--how many, we can't know for sure, although the clip


	1)  "Arabs are racists."
	2)  This statement doesn't say "ALL Arabs are racists."
	3)  Since clearly SOME Arabs are racists, the statement
            in (1) cannot be construed as anti-Arab.  QED


-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the Israeli press
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:54:22 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 20607@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>No, but Catholics do tell their children not to marry non-Catholics.  I

Only a small fraction of Catholic families in the west would make a
fuss about this any more.  Even the clergy are much less outspoken 
about it than they were, say, 20 years ago.  

>guess the only difference is that there are many nations where Catholics
>are a majority, but only 1 where Jews are a majority.

>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 

Brendan.
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Opposites and yet so alike
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:54:04 GMT
	<1992Dec15.205601.16512@dsg.cs.tcd.ie>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

Look, the Arabs want to kill the Jews:
[from a recent posting on Hamas]
   >>>**   d) The Islamic movement is one link in the long chain of fighters
   >>>** against Zionism.  We are looking forward to implement Allah's and the
   >>>** Prophet's promise to the effect that "the time will come when the
   >>>** Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them.... Even if Jews should hide
   >>>** behind trees and rocks, these will cry out: `Oh Muslims, there is a
   >>>** Jew behind me, come and kill him..." (Article 7).

Look, the Jews want to kill the Arabs:
[from a recent newswire on current events in Israel]
>         In the town of Lod near Tel Aviv, where Toledano lived, crowds
> gathered outside in the rain and screams of anguish were heard from
> inside his family's home. Jewish youths ran through the mixed Israeli-
> Arab town Monday night, yelling, ``Death to the Arabs!''

Should we be surprised by this?  No.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Malcom X
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:29:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.161648.7275@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.210839.20081@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>>In article <4650@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>
>>>How do you think we feel about a masjid being destroyed by Islam-hating,
>>>radical Hindus?
>>
>>	Probably pretty upset, but I was curious because the was no mention
>>	of this anywhere on this group.  
>
>Hindus in India destroyed a mosque, Muslims "retaliated" by destroyng
>11 Hindu temples, and 700 people died.
>
>I'm not sure how relevant this is to the middle East, except to show
>us what happens when religious fanatics start attacking each other.

	I feel that is relavent because there was no outcry, like there was
	over the temple mount incedent in Israel.  Are some Muslims worth 
	more than others or are Jews worse that Hindus.

	Geoff

>
>Adam
>
>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all because of elections.  How true that is.


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:25:29 GMT

In article <1600@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:

# In article <1992Dec9.233632.8706@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >...
# ># What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
# ># were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
# ># militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
# ># The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
# ># automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.

# >	You have to be kidding.  They had pre-positioned huge rocks to
# >throw on Jewish worshipers below.  It was a planned and pre-meditated
# >attack.  Only a miracle prevented Jewish fatalities.
 
# For David I suggest another session with his therapist, for the rest of you,
# rest assured that issue has been discussed at length previously and not only
# is everything David asserts untrue, it was shown so by the Israeli judicial
# inquiry.

	You can "suggest" and "assure" all you want.  You cannot change
facts, especailly when a big part (the pre positioning of rocks) is
admitted to by the participants themselves.

	Unless, of course, you live ina different universe from the rest
of us.

# "They should be given medals"
# - a poster referring to IDF troops convicted of warcrimes.

	This sounds like something where you grab something written by a
poster that applied only in certain specific cases.  I suggest you
repost the entire article for all to see.
--
"For all I care, you can send your money to the Hitler memorial fund, too, if
that pleases you."

From  arens@vaxa.isi.edu (Yigal Arens) in article <9323@venera.isi.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Militant Foreign Nationalisms
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:59:32 GMT

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

 MIK> Why don't you consider American Jews to be American?

Do you even begin to understand how grave are your problems in
reading comprehension and general cognition?

This is one of those questions which contains its own evident
answer. Of course you don't. There is a nice correlation between
your exclamation points, uppercased shouts, and verbal filth and
your inability to read English.

My point was that any militant nationalist whose is not living in
the nation of his obsession, and whose passions are leading him
into relentless ugly conflict with his fellow citizens, and who
doesn't have the guts to act on his convictions by fighting for
his beliefs in the homeland of his heart, cuts an entirely
ridiculous figure.

This is especially true for militant Zionists, since a cardinal
principle of Zionism is that all Jews in the world should move to
Israel. Militant Zionists living comfortably in America,
browbeating fellow Americans with verbal violence and endless
demands for handouts instead of putting their bodies on the line
in Israel, do not inspire respect among most Americans. Israelis
especially find these loudmouths to be contemptible.

When is the last time you had spittle flying in your face from an
American citizen all worked up about, say, Ireland? Most militant
nationalists in America whose nationalism is not American have
enough common sense to keep their obsessions to themselves, and
not too much bother their fellow citizens.

I can foresee Americans eventually leaning more to the Arab than
the Israeli cause simply because Arab nationalists in America
have made less of a nuisance of themselves than Jewish
nationalists. Americans hate being pressured and browbeaten by
anyone. All the powerful political instruments that the Israeli
lobby has built up to push American policy this way and that
could well in the long run backfire and blow up in the faces of
the lobbyists.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gfeygin@unicorn.eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin)
Subject: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Toronto
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:36:20 GMT

Body of the Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano has been found. No details yet ---
my wife phoned me to say she heard it on the news.
From: mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Homosexuality in Islam
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:51:31 GMT

In article <nabeel.724199840@oracle.sce.carleton.ca>, nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
> In <18113@autodesk.COM> mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook) writes:
> 
> " We might as well ask straights to stop breeding. For all this talk of
> " Islam and homosexuality, you still can't walk down the street in an Arab
> " country without getting propositioned constantly. Jeez--I wish I had
> " as much luck in the Castro. Time for a trip to Egypt, methinks.
> 
>    You probably mean Saudi Arabia, because I don't think Egypt is 
> full of homosexuals despite that most Arabs think Westerners are too 
> feminine to be considered men.

Nope. I mean Egypt. Why be so coy? I didn't say that Egypt was full of
homosexuals. Anybody vaguely familiar with Arab society knows that while
a man will probably marry and have children, sex between men is common.
So if we westerners can't be considered "men," I guess we must be
women, right? Sounds good to me. I'm gonna have a *good* time.



--
Death to all fanatics!!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:38:26 GMT


The problem with the use of the Hadith is twofold:
1)It is not an instruction, it is a prophecy about something that will happen
in the future, while Hamas is using it in its charter to imply the impossibility
of peace untill all jews are killed.
First: There is much controversy on the use of such Hadiths to add
Aqeedah (beliefs or knowledge), but they chose to use it.
Second: The end of the time might not be very near, so even if the
Hadith was certain, who told you that it is talking about Israel and not
about another state 1000 years from now?

2) It is very misleading, I know many Hamas people (or actually people
that sympathize with them) and none of them wants to kill all Jews, so quoting
that Hadith hurts your image and make you look more ugly than you really are.
Obviously Hamas is not interested in a reachable solution, nor in preaching
about Islam. I will tell you what they should have done:
-declare a war of liberation in the west bank and Gaza against Israeli
occupation of that specific region, and limit itself to that goal. This will
be more convincing and more reacheable than proclaiming the destruction of
all of Israel. Have you wondered why there are too many collaborators?
It is because the Palestinians themselves do not believe that they are
going anywhere soon. So the weaklings opt for the safer side.

I would say that there are as many Hamas members as there are collaborators
right now.

=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
Phone Number and Address variable...
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: <k>jewish racism
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:56:47 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

<knotes>

<o>#clip

<des>

     Leading Zionist ideologue Ze'ev Jabotinsky preaches the
     doctrine of Jewish racial purity. (Schoenman Hidden History
     of Zionism 1988)

<doctype>book
<author>Schoenman, Ralph
<title>The Hidden History of Zionism
<city>Santa Barbara, CA
<publisher>Veritas Press
<year>1988

<excerpt>

     It's interesting to recall, as well, that Jabotinsky located
     his colonial impulse in the doctrine of the purity of blood.
     Jabotinsky spelled this out in his "Letter on Autonomy:"

     "It is impossible for a man to become assimilated with
     people whose blood is different than his own. In order to
     become assimilated, he must change his body, he must become
     one of them, in blood. There can be no assimilation. We
     shall never allow such things as mixed marriage because the
     preservation of national integrity is impossible except by
     means of racial purity and for that purpose we shall have
     this territory where our people will constitute the racially
     pure inhabitants."

     This theme was further elaborated by Jabotinsky:

     "The source of national feeling ... lies in a man's blood
     ... in his racio-physico type and in that alone.... A man's
     spiritual outlook is primarily determined by his physical
     structure. For that reason we do not believe in spiritual
     assimilation. It is inconceivable, from the physical point
     of view, that a Jew born to a family of pure Jewish blood
     can become adapted to the spiritual outlook of a German or a
     Frenchman. He may be wholly imbued with that German fluid,
     but the nucleus of his spiritual structure will always
     remain Jewish."

     The adoption of chauvinist doctrines of racial purity and
     the logic of the blood were not confined to Jabotinsky or to
     the revisionists. The liberal philosopher, Martin Buber,
     located his Zionism equally within the framework of European
     racist doctrine:

     "The deepest layers of our being are determined by blood;
     our innermost thinking and our will are colored by it."

<excerpt pages>26

</o>
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  ethnonarcissism indices
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deporting "Agitators"
Date: 14 Dec 1992 12:50:28 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <Bz8Gx7.I51@world.std.com>, wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

|> It'd be a damn shame to see Kaufman's astonishingly poor reading
|> comprehension rub off on some of the more cognitively gifted
|> users here who are trying to make the best case for Israel.
|> (Their best case has not been very convincing so far, but then
|> again they are dealing with an exceptionally hard sell.)

Excuse me, but just one question: Have you lived/stayed in any of the
involved countries? (Israel,Egypt,Lebanon,Syria or Jordan)
While it's quite obvious that the state of Israel have indeed abused
it's power at times, I'd say that _one_ of the reasons that the
palestinians can make themselves heard at all is that they have
at least rudimentary civil rights, in that state. Of the neighbours
only Egypt is even close, with Jordan in second place.
In my opinion, Civil rights in Syria/Lebanon is just a joke.

So, while it is quite right to try and shed light on the abuses,
I think that saying things like the above quote, is very 
misleading.

0.02 $ worth..


--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
From: zzaaskk@v2.cgu.mcc.ac.uk
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:53:48 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre CGU

In article <1992Dec14.012504.16648@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
> To even ask the question is to reveal oneself as a racist.
> 
> To post that fictional propaganda is to confirm that racism.
> -- 
> Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

..............Racism.....Terrorist..........anti-semit. 
..............Anti-semite...Terrorist..................Racist
Terrorist.....................racist.....................antisemit.....
 Terrorist --- terrorist..... terrorist......



What ever I said in between the words must be true I have used enough of the
words terrorist/racist/anti-semite. Gosh I must be a genius.

Kamie
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast