From: cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker)
Subject: Re: Response to "Bible and Abortion"
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 01:26:13 GMT

a-amberf@microsoft.com (Amber Foruria) writes:

>In article <d1wtsnq@rpi.edu>, cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>> a-amberf@microsoft.com (Amber Foruria) writes:

          [high school girls who wouldn't use birth control
           and got abortions]
>> Now, to look at this from a different angle.  Do you really want
>> such stupid and irresponsible people to become _parents_?  You

>I never said they had to KEEP the child!  they could always
>give it up for adoption and there was (and is) support available
>to them, for that.

Whether they kept the child or not, they would still be parents.
But I'd like to tell you about a friend I had in high school (lo
these many moons past).  She got pregnant. (I _think_ they used
bc, but I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that ifyuhknowwhutahmean)
Her family was Catholic, her mother was an alcoholic, and the family
was extremely abusive.  Her mother announced that she (my friend) 
was not having an abortion, but would carry the pregnancy to term
and then give the baby up for adoption.  (She enforced this view on
her daughter with various threats, etc)  Well, my friend got wasted
and stayed that way through most of the pregnancy.  She was
probably drinking most of a case of beer every day, along with as
much marijuana and coke as she could get her hands on.  I suspect
that her mother was physically abusive (she was certainly 
emotionally abusive....I heard the word "whore" screamed on more
than one occasion).  She gave birth, and never saw the child.
However, a short time later she (mistakenly) received a bill
for a major operation on one Baby Boy <surname>.  I shudder to
think what kind of shape that kid was in by the time he was born.
And the bill got my friend hysterical.  She called me screaming
about her son, what was wrong with her son, why wouldn't they
let her see her son, on and on.  By the time I got to her house
her mother said she had gotten drunk and passed out and wouldn't
let me see her.  I saw her only once, a few months later, and she
was suicidal.  I tried to talk to her, but didn't get anywhere.  I
don't know what eventually became of her.

So forgive me if I don't see adoption as a particularly good
answer.

                  [...]
>I think abortion should remain legal to women...except those like
>my "friends".  I don't think a woman or girl should be able to just
>walk into a clinic and say "I want an abortion...I don't want to carry
>the child to term...."  I think clinics are doing a good job telling
>the mothers what there options are....I feel there should be limitations.

I still don't understand why you feel that a woman needs to have
an acceptable reason(s) to have an abortion.  Do you feel that
the alternatives are any better?  I would also point out that
VERY FEW (on the order of 3%?) children of single teenaged mothers
are given up for adoption.  I come from Miami, and we see the results
of that all the time.  Shortly before I left, a teenaged girl was
arrested for beating her 17-DAY-old child to death.  Why? "Because
all she did was eat, cry, and mess her diapers".  One is left to
wonder what exactly these girls think they're getting into.

>> >ABORTIONS!!!!!!  IF SHE IS STUPID ENOUGH TO GET ONE EVERYTIME
>> >SHE FEELS IT IS INCONVENIENT TO HAVE A CHILD, THEN SHE WILL HAVE
>> >TO PAY THE CONSEQUENCES!!!!!
>> 
>> What consequences would those be, other than the obvious expense?

>Just the expense, any damage (if there is any), etc. Also, any guilt
>or pain 

Isn't that pretty much the current situation?

>(I know, pregnancy causes pain....so, don't get pregnant!)

It would be the perfect solution, unfortunately, we don't currently
have any means to ensure this for everyone.

                 [...]
>I am not really attacking anyone.  Must I ?

The tone of your post was somewhat....emotional.

>> "you don't feel..." that a woman is suffering when she carries a
>> child.  Have you ever carried a child?  Do you have any idea what
>> other women feel about carrying children?

>I realize that carrying a child is a sort of suffering.  What I meant
>was, if she doesn't WANT to endure the suffering, if having a child
>isn't worth the suffering she must go through while being pregnant,
>WHY GET PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE??!!

Getting pregnant often happens by accident.  This I know firsthand.

>> Do you realize that "not having sex" is NOT a reasonable option
>> for many women?  What about women in abusive relationships, who
>> may be beaten up for refusing sex?  What about women who simply
>> love their husbands and wish to make them happy through sex?  What
>> about women who enjoy sex?  Would you make all these women unhappy
>> simply because you feel their abortions are irresponsible?

>First of all:  for those who can't help themselves; why not use
>birthcontrol?  

Birth control fails.  This I also know firsthand.

>Abusive relationships; I agree with you...women in
>those kinds of situations SHOULD be able to get an abortion.  
>Women who love their husbands....BIRTHCONTROL! WHAT IN THE WORLD
>IS WRONG WITH BEING A LITTLE MORE RESPONSIBLE WHEN HAVING SEX??!!

There is nothing "wrong" with it.  But please understand that even
"responsible" sex can result in pregnancy.

                 [...]
>> I don't object to men having an opinion on the abortion issue.  I
>> only object when men are willing to mandate for me what they
>> themselves would never have to face.

>I agree with you....I was being a bit harsh.

               [...]
>	My definition of convenience, I feel, has been explained!

What I'm asking is for a definition in precise terms.  You've
talked about a few people who you think shouldn't have access to
abortion, and a few for whom it would be allowed.  I'm wondering
how we would go about classifying these cases.

                             -rocker