From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject:  Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:37:01 GMT

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From tassos@art.DNET.NASA.GOV  Thu Nov 19 20:20:42 1992
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From: tassos@art.DNET.NASA.GOV (Anastassiades - Advanced Rotorcraft Technology / NASA Ames)
To: "soc-culture-greek-post@cs.wisc.edu"@6913.DNET.NASA.GOV
Subject: Trip to Skopje, 9/92

> From: Lynn Gazis-Sax <lgsax@igc.apc.org>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
> Date: 16 Nov 92 19:43 PST
> Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
> Lines: 55


 [rest of article deleted...]

> On Alexander the Great:  Vlada said flatly that Macedonians
> had nothing to do with Alexander the Great.  I have seen
> a couple of posters on the net say the same.  On the other
> hand, there was one poster right before I left who maintained
> the ludicrous view that these modern Macedonians were related
> to the ancient Macedonians rather than Slavs (I recall at
> least one Macedonian disavowing his views), and the historian
> Ivo Banac mentions in *The National Question in Yugoslavia*
> a historian, Vinko Pribojevic, who tried to claim that the
> ancient Macedonians were Slavs (he was Croat rather than
> Macedonian, so I mention this mainly to say that the Greeks
> didn't invent this idea that someone might want to appropriate
> Alexander the Great, rather than to say that this directly
> shows anything about what views would be current in Skopje.
> I think I remember one of our guides or maps seeming to fudge
> the issue - not saying that Macedonians were descended from
> ancient Macedonians, but describing Alexander the Great as
> part of the general heritage of the region.  My best guess
> is: a small fringe element thinks of Alexander the Great
> as theirs, a large group feels no real connection at all,
> and another group feels some connection, but probably not
> an exclusive claim, and with the understanding that they
> are actually descended from Slavs.  

>                                   ...But I don't know
> for sure.  I also don't know why they chose that flag.

    Because they are in the middle of an identity crisis,
    the world around them is breaking apart (Serbia-Croatia-Bosnia
    etc.), they are in poor economic shape, and they need some 
    point of reference, an identity, to which they can fall back.

> On the name, and the connection with other Macedonias:
> Vladimir Milcin said that it was purely geographical,
> no other connection.  All the people I talked to in
> the street said that Macedonia didn't want any additional
> territory - so they were saying, anyway, that they didn't
> consider the other Macedonias (in Greece and Bulgaria)
> part of their country.  I am not sure whether that means
> that they feel there was never a connection, or whether
> that means that they feel that events since the Balkan
> Wars have put a rest to any connection, or what exactly
> the reasoning is (since the only person I spoke with at
> length about this was Vladimir Milcin).

    Even though your ancestry is Greek, you seem to fail to 
    make the same assumptions that are deeply rooted in the
    hearts of Greeks: these are feelings of deep mistrust and
    suspicion against most of our neighboring countries - 
    especially Turkey.  If people studied even recent history,
    they would be able at least to understand these 
    fears and suspicions of the oldest people in the region!

    I have spoken to many, many different Turkish people over 
    the period of the last 6-7 years.  NONE of them has ever told 
    me that they want to come in and capture a Greek island because 
    they consider it a part of their country.  None of them 
    ever said that Cyprus is a part of Turkey.  Everybody
    I have spoken to brushes aside my notion of suspicion
    against Turkey, and cannot seem to understand why 
    anyone in Turkey would ever want to invade any part of
    Greece!

    Yet, the 1955 pogroms in Istanbul have not faded from our memories...
    Yet, the 1974 invasion of Cyprus is still fresh in our memories...
    Yet, the daily flyovers of Turkish air-force planes into
         Greek airspace are a reality TODAY!
    
    - Why would Greece want to reach the same point with the Skopians?
    - Why is it so difficult to understand that "prevention is better 
      than cure?"
    - Why does it matter if the 5 people that you spoke to in Skopia
      said that they do not have claims to any Greek territory - what
      does that prove?

    The world is a dynamic system, things change overnight,  Saddam 
    Hussein was America's ally, and overnight became the most evil
    world opressor... The change of the perception was enough to
    start the Gulf war! Is that so difficult to grasp?

    Greece is accused as being stubborn, unyielding, and unreasonable.
    It is! This is a matter that affects us directly, and we have
    a saying over any other organization in the matter! We were 
    accused of being being stubborn, unyielding, and unreasonable
    in the past (1940), when Mussolini was asking us to either
    join his forces or surrender!!

    Please, try to see the situation objectively, Greece is not only 
    ancient ruins, beautiful scenery and tranquil seas, it is a
    modern country which has to survive **today**, in **this**
    world, and not in a museum! In doing so, it has to fend off
    anyone who tries to violate it, and this is not always pretty!

> Lynn Gazis-Sax

Tassos Anastassiades
Mountain View, CA