From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon Discount Supermachine  Re: Sydnes is gone?!!
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:04:13 GMT
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <1992Aug20.002305.21842@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>: Then there's the A600 which has a bus from a PC.  :-)
>
>At least it's a BUS.  ;)

The funny thing is that C= has this bus in a real product now, but we'll
probably hear more about its use in the Apple Newton.  :-)

>: Zorro III is nice, too bad it is not popular.  Until there are enough
>: machines with the Zorro III bus we'll probably see more Zorro II cards
>: than anything else.  
>
>It's popular to own, it just doesn't appear popular to develop for.
>:)  Lots of people have 3000's with unrealized potential...

Like me.  I've had the machine for over a year now and the only board that
I have is a Zorro II Ethernet board.  It is a nice board, but it cannot 
keep up with the 486-33 and 486-50 ISA machines I use at work.  :-(  I'd
love to buy a video board, especially a Zorro III board, but I can't see
spending more than I paid for the A3000 itself.  Not to knock the A2000,
but I don't think it is helping any that C= continues to sell the thing.
If they would go to Zorro III and 020 or better in all machines except
for the A500/A600 class we'd probably begin to see more Zorro III boards.
Of course, this is assuming that C= pulls its head out of its rear-end
and can price the things right and do a little marketing.

>: Uh, I hope that I'm wrong but the A3400/A4000 or whatever may not
>: have an A3000/A3000T compatible CPU slot.  It may have the same
>: number of pins, but the form factor has certainly changed.
>
>Undobtedly:  The processor slots change from cpu to cpu, from system
>to system.  Such is true of those slots both on Amigas AND Mac
>systems.  Can't say anything about the IBM, I'm not sure, though I
>believe those changed too.

C='s track record with regard to the CPU slots is certainly better than
Apple's, but then again there have only been 5 different Amigas with a 
CPU slot (A1000, A500, A2000, A3000, A600) while Apple often introduces 
that many models in a single year.  Whether or not this is a good thing
is certainly debatable, but it certainly gives the illusion that Apple
is actually developing new hardware.

There are several different clones with CPU slots now, many offering 
low-end 386sx chips on up to the fastest 486 chips.  The problem is that
each clone-builder has their own CPU slot and you're stuck with their
boards.  It could be argued that the Amiga is in the same boat, but for
all their problems I'd bet C= will be around longer than most of the
clone makers.

>When motherboard signals change, so do the processor slots.

Hey, if the new CPU slot has been changed to make it work better with
the AA chipset, I'm all for it.  I just hope that the 040 boards for
the new machines are cheaper to build than those for the A3000.  I
just switched over to a 486-50DX (not the clock-doubler hack) and the
motherboard was less than $800.  The thing has 16M RAM, Tseng SVGA,
2 235M IDE drives, Ethernet board, 1.44M and 1.2M floppies, SVGA monitor,
keyboard and mouse.  All for $3500.  It's not an Amiga, but it makes for
a really nice development platform and makes my poor A3000 feel like
my old A1000 did after I Powered Up.  :-(

>: With the goofy 1040ST case you'd need a Bodega-Bay like contraption for
>: that backplane.
>
>IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN??????  OHMYGOD.  I owned one of
>those little buggers, thought it was the UGLIEST thing to ever grace
>(or grease) my desk.

Yep, and the joystick ports are still on the bottom of the thing.  I think
that they are going to be the same dark gray as the ST Book and the old
STacy.  Maybe they'll use stealth paint so no one will notice them and
start laughing.  :-)

>: Let's hope that Commodore can convince lots more to feel that way.
>
>:)
>
>: The old voice chip appears to be in there also.
>
>Not much of a cost reduction, they're throwing everything from three
>computer systems into it...  I guess that's one way to maintain
>compatibility. 

Almost as if they are layering the hardware to make up for their mistakes
like they are for the software.  :-)

>: I don't think that the NeXT allows more than one app to use the DSP at
>: the same time either.  Of course, the Amiga is also guilty in this case.
>: Try running MED and another module player and see what happens.
>
>Those hack the hardware, specifically against OS rules.  If they were
>to "obtain" those, like my Mod player does, you'd see there's no
>problems.

I didn't mean to imply that they crashed the machine or anything like that,
but only 4 voices are allowed at one time.  I don't know how easy or how
hard it would be, but a system that allowed an infinite number of programs
to access the sound would be nice.  I realize that there would be some
limitations, but a hardware or software "mixer" could allow several apps
to output sound without having to wait for free channels.

>I'm not sure how the NeXT does it:  Does it require that you "obtain"
>the dsp before use?

I'm not really certain.  I almost bought one and spent several hours at
the Stanford bookstore and computer center playing with them and recall
seeing requesters indicating that the DSP was busy, so I'd guess that
it does.

>: Ah, but the Falcon has MultiTOS!  As Jeff Young and others have told
>: us over and over again, MultiTOS and the Falcon will rule the world!
>: Surely a world leader can multitask a DSP!
>
>Yeah, sure.  :)  Unless they developed an operating system to work
>within that itty-bitty amount of memory they're giving that DSP, I
>doubt it.

As they can't seem to develop an OS to work in the memory given to the
CPU, I don't think they'd have much luck developing one for the DSP.  :-)

>: Nothing about the Falcon is, but then again consider its lineage.
>
>Boo, hiss, low blow.  :)  I'm trying to be factual and give a real
>critique of what I really think of the thing, and here you are
>spouting Real and Whole Truths of the Universe.  :)

Sorry, but bashing the Atari is great therapy for my depression due to
the lack of visible progress at C=.

>: Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS.  Hacks layered upon a stupid
>: program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
>: the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.
>
>Unless they rewrote, which I hope they did.  If it is truly all
>"hacked on top, layer after layer", I'll be rather disappointed.
>Moreso than I already am.

My roommate worked on a few utilities for MiNT and knows something about
it.  He is not planning to buy a Falcon depsite the hype although he has
been a die-hard ST fan for several years now.  What does that tell you?

>: I'd just like to see an Atari change video modes without rebooting.  :-)
>
>:D
>
>: I'm sure that Radio Shack will be happy to supply the adapters.
>
>If we're talking about professional image, what would YOU think about
>mini-headphone jacks being there?  if they were real headphone jacks,
>the big ones, I'd think differently.  At least SOMEWHAT differently.
>But it looks DAMNED unprofessional for something touted as having
>professional quality sound to have HEADPHONE jacks.

Agreed.  I guess Atari is just copying the Mac.  I believe that you 
mentioned in an earlier article that RCA jacks don't take up that 
much space, so why not use them?  Of course, I wouln't mind at all if
the new Amigas had microphone jacks for sound input...

>: Hey, if they threw out SCSI, kept IDE, added an expansion bus, put the
>: CPU on a card, and put the whole thing into a baby-AT style case they'd
>: have an A3400 look-alike.  :-)
>
>Boo.  :)  Actually, that would look pretty damned ugly.  ;)

Maybe.  As nice as the A3000's case is, it really is a pain in the butt
to upgrade the thing.

>: I wonder if Atari's version is non-standard like the one that ships with
>: the Amiga.
>
>(the one for the ST is.  non-standard, I mean)
>
>: If you want to learn UNIX, get a Sun-3 for ~$1000.  You get real machine
>: from a real company with a real keyboard and a real OS.  
>
>A real buggy OS, that is.  ;)

But think of all the great practice you'll get while re-writing all of
the buggy code.  :-)

>: Did anyone really expect anything else?
>
>Honestly, yes.

A co-worker and fellow Amiga owner was telling me yesterday how he hopes
that Atari really gets on the ball and the Falcon takes off.  I asked him
what he was smoking and he replied that it seems that the only thing that
can spur C= to release new Amigas is the release of new Ataris.  While
this may not be true, it certainly seems like it when one considers the
release dates of the repsective machines.  I just wish that C= would set
their sights on Apple and the clones instead of something like Atari.

>: BTW, if I sound harsh on the ST, Falcon, etc. good!  As long as bozos keep
>: ranting about the Falcon I'll continue to flame them.  It amazes me that
>: any Amiga owners would consider a machine from a company with a record that
>: makes Commodore look great.
>
>I'm not considering it.  I haven't been.  I was thinking that maybe
>Atari would be changing.  That maybe this would be the computer system
>that changes Atari's reputation.  Unfortunately, I seem to have been
>wrong.

C= may still have a chance to survive, but Atari is dead in the US.  I
live in one of the poorest states in the country (only Clinton's Arkansas
can compete :-) with a population of ~2 million.  There is only one
Amiga dealer left and they are now selling more clones than Amigas.
Despite this, there are quite a few Amigas in the state.  The problem is
that most people own A500s and A2000s and many want to upgrade to keep
up with the competition, primarily clones.  If C= does not do something
to satisfy these folks, these Amigas will end up in the closets along
with the Apple ][s, C64s, Atari 800s, etc.  Given the total number of
Amigas sold worldwide, I don't think that C= can really afford to lose
even a few supporters.

>Greg


Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy