HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades.
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:09:43 GMT

In <1992Nov20.165315.515@advtech.uswest.com> jwood@advtech.uswest.com (Jim Wood) writes:
>In <1992Nov19.104541.10005@netcom.com> arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:

>>I really like this trade for both sides. Seattle, finally has a player
>>to stabilize their bullpen. If Schooler can come back, he can still be a
>>decent setup man, IMHO. Seattle, if they can now find a leadoff man should be
>>a reasonable contender. Maybe Greg Briley finally?

>In <1992Nov19.162422.12522@Princeton.EDU> (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

>>>Wait, I just re-read what you were saying.  And I'm not clear on exactly
>>>what it meant.  Are you claiming they should make Greg Briley their
>>>leadoff man?  Greg Briley, of the career .320 OBP?  Greg Briley, who put
>>>up a .290 OBP last year?  Greg Briley?

>Les responds:

>>Sure. Briley really hasn't been given a chance to play so I think it is
>>unfair to use his .320 career OBP against him yet. Besides, their other
>>choices are to go with wasting Edgar Martinez in the #1 spot or resigning 
>>Harold Reynolds who doesn't have a much better career OBP and would stifle
>>the play of Bret Boone. Of course, they could always go out and get someone,
>>but I doubt that will happen.

(And I pointed out that Briley has 1300 career ABs.He isn't going to improve.)

>Have either of you considered the fact the M's might have already decided
>to give Henry Cotto a full-time shot at left field and the leadoff position?

No, I never even considered it.  I thought the Mariners were trying to
have a *better* record than the expansion teams.

>Henry has always been a low-key role player, one who never openly griped about
>lack of playing time (which we all know he desired more of), and has produced
>when given an opportunity.

Produced what, is the question?  Not runs, that's for sure.  He *was* a
career 263/305/377 before this year's stellar 259/294/354.

>Cotto, if memory serves me, holds the record for successful steal percentage
>for players with 100 attempts.  He has good speed, is an intelligent base
>runner, has a good glove and range in the outfield, and may really shine given
>a shot at the every-day job. 

He *is* an amazing percentage base stealer.  That makes him qualified to
be pinch runner.  (Career 114-21, 84%)

>I agree that the M's won't go out and get a leadoff man - simply because I
>think they have a good one in Cotto and the M's pitching and catching needs
>are greater!

"If Henry Cotto is a major league baseball player, then I am an
airplane."  -- Bill James, c. 1987.

Henry Cotto is 32 years old, with over 1800 major league ABs, and has a
*worse* career OBP than Greg Briley.  It's down to about .300 now.  Whoopee.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Mike Mussina 1993 AL Cy Young Winner
niepornt@phoenix.    |------------------------------------ 
   princeton.edu     | "I still believe in a place called Hope."
Clinton/Gore '92.  Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Call for Hall of Fame Votes
Organization: NSSL
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:31:00 GMT

Players:

	Grover Cleveland Alexander
        Johnny Bench
        Yogi Berra
        Eddie Collins
	Jimmie Foxx
        Lefty Grove
        Rogers Hornsby
        Sandy Koufax
        Christy Mathewson
        Joe Morgan

Non-players:

	Alexander Cartwright
	Ban Johnson
        Kennesaw Mountain Landis
	A. G. Spalding


Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cazuzek@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Zuzek, John E.)
Subject: Re: published draft protection list (?)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Distribution: na
Date: 16 Nov 1992 12:18 EST  

In article <1992Nov13.034041.10351@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, dadler@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (David Adler) writes...
>   Chicago readers - was the "true" list actually published in the
>Tribune? If so, how did they get hold of it? I'm curious if this list
>has any validity....

As everyone probably knows by now, the list is THE LIST - yes, it's real.  
Holtzman allegedly got it from the Players' Union as he is very close to 
several key members of the Union.  To throw suspicion from the Union (and 
make it really tough for MLB to levy the $250,000 fine), he also gave the 
list to someon from the Rocky Mountain News(?) which threw suspicion that 
it was someone with the Rockies who leaked the list.  The players did have 
something to gain by leaking the list.  If a player is on the list, his 
agent can say, "Obviously my man is very valuable to your club since you 
protected him; therefore, he deserves more money".  And logically, if a player 
is not on the protected list, his agent will undoubtedly say, "By not 
putting my player on the list, you have grievously insulted him; therefore 
he deserves to be compensated for this insult."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Zuzek                         |"The federal government is basically
NASA Lewis Research Center         | one enormous, ongoing Meeting From
-----------------------------------| Hell"  
cazuzek@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov       |                        -- Dave Barry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mschrank@mitre.org (Mike Schrank)
Subject: Status of Ozzie Smith???
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:38:35 GMT

Hello all you Cards fans,

Can anyone tell me what the latest is on the Ozzie Smith free (?) agency?  
I've heard bits and pieces about Houston and Kansas City showing some 
interest.  What is St. Louis doing?  Anything?  I know Ozzie wants a 
multi-year deal and Dal (One-year Contracts ONLY) Maxvill is probably 
resisting.  I think the Cards' should give him a multi-year deal and pay 
him what he wants.  If for no other reason than he has earned it on his past 
performances (13 Gold Gloves, near .300 BA, etc.)  That is more than we can say about some of the other BIG money players in the game today!!!

CARDS in '93!!
Mike Schrank
mschrank@mitre.org


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Australian Ball - Strange ground.
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:07:13 GMT

Probably the closest to these strange dimensions is the set-up for the
Los Angeles Coliseum when the Dodgers were using it from 58-61. According
to Green Cathedrals, the dimensions were: 

Left Field 250 (later 251.6)
Left Center 320
Center field 425
Right Center 440 (1958) 375 (1959) 394 (1960) and 380 (1961)
Right Field 301

There was a 40 ft screen in left field

That's probably the most well-known. My favorite park is the Sulphur Dell 
used by the Nashville Elite Giants (Negro National League) from 1933 to
1934. The right field had a sharp slope that started just behind first.
The slope was 45 degrees 224 from home. There was a 10 ft shelf 235 feet
from home and then another 45-degree slope up to the 262 mark. The park
was near the city dump and so was nicknamed The Dump.

In the minor leagues there was Hodges Field used temporarily by the
Memphis Chicks. It was 204 feet down the right field line with a 40-
foot screen. After an 11-homerun game, balls hit over the screen became
doubles.

The biggest minor league park was probably Leeman Ballpark in Huntington Gap,
VA. 600 ft to right, 1200 ft to center and 900 ft to left. Probably didn't
sell and awful lot of outfield bleacher seats.
--
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith | "Quick! Get behind me! I don't know what a
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)    |  little peanut like you could do to so upset
     Absinthe makes the    |  him, but it looks like Doomsday really wants 
      time grow softer     |  to kill you"    _Mr Peanut meets Superman_
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: yankees@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Kenneth M Gelfand)
Subject: Re: Whats the stupidest rule in baseball?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 06:05:00 GMT

In article <By7ExM.9o6@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins) writes...
>tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
> 
>>While waiting for the season to start, here's a nice time wasting topic for
>>discussion:
> 
>>   What is the stupidest rule or procedure in baseball?
> 
>I think the infield fly rule is pretty stupid.  I mean, why *shouldn't*
>a team be penalized more than one out when a guy pops up with men on
>first and second and less than two outs?  Why cut the batter any
>slack?  There is no such slack when he sends a nice groundball to short
>or second.  Besides, why mess with exceptions?
> 
>I know the rule didn't always exist.  Anyone have background on why
>they changed it?
> 
>     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
>         University of Illinios
>         Urbana, IL


	The reason the infield fly rule makes sense is that it gives the 
fielder such a great advantage over the runner.  On a ground ball, the
runner knows that he has to be running on the hit, but on a pop fly, he's
caught in a Catch-22, stay and the fielder drops the ball, which is an
easy DP, run and the fielder catches and throws behind you for possibly
a double or triple play.  This would be too easy, and would cause baseball
to lose some of its drama if a batter could "pop" into a double play to
end the game .  Double plays are intended to be dramatic occurences and
a muffed pop simply does not give that to baseball.

 	You guys want to eliminate something boring with baseball, make the
NL use the DH, I don't find watch Sid Fernandez run the basepaths a graceful
or magical sight.


							Kenny G

"When the pitcher comes to the plate, fans either yawn or go to the
bathroom."
						Some obscure minor league 
							manager

"I bet there were even some wild fans who yawned in the bathroom!!!"
						Ron Luciano
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Eck Wins MVP in Horrible Voting
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:38:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Nov23.193807.354
Distribution: na
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <23NOV199213035032@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>
>	Rickey, on the other hand, is not Mr. Consistency.  He is not the
>backbone in the A's lineup, and he's a hard man to build a team around (in
>the NON-numerical sense, that is).

You were doing okay for a while, but this is total bullshit!  Rickey
is one of *the* most consistent players in baseball.  He is good
*every* year (except for his last half season with the Yankees), and
is exactly what 90% of MLB teams desperately need: a leadoff hitter
with speed *and* OBP.

Sure, he plays left field.  But he plays it quite well.  Rickey is one
of the easiest players to build around in baseball, and has been a
large part of the A's dynasty.

>With the talent and atmosphere in
>Oakland in '92, I can easily see them winning without Rickey, with his
>17 extra runs produced and all.

Rickey produced a hell of a lot more than 17 runs.  Again, you are
pulling numbers out of the air.  Replace Rickey with Dan Gladden, and
the A's *don't* win their division.  And I really don't *care* what
you imagine seeing.  You lose Rickey, and all those gaudy RBI totals
for Lansford, Canseco, and McGwire go down the tubes.  And those runs
that Bordick/Blankenship scored with Rickey's help?  Lost in the realm
of the "might-have-beens".  And then what do the A's have?

>>(I'm not claiming Devereaux is awful; but in comparison with Henderson,
>>there is no contest.)
>
>	If you're talking about their overall careers, certainly.  But
>for MVP voting for this one season, it's a no-contest, the other way 
>around.

Devereaux wasn't bad.  He was one of the most valuable Orioles.
However, the Orioles didn't have *anybody* who really stood out.  They
won with balance and overall strength (except at second base).

>	No, I don't condone the New York media (especially WFAN, the de
>facto NY front office), but if you're not going to get along with the press
>like Rickey did, your career is not going to be helped.

I dunno.  Rickey is a lock for the HOF.  Doesn't seem to have hurt him
too much.  While the Yankees lost a lot of talent when he left, and
haven't contended since.

Seems to me that Rickey has done better than New York, all things
considered.

>Why?  Treadway?  The Orioles have a definite chance to sign Lou
>Whitaker this season, and even if he's going to be a stop-gap for 2 years
>until a legitimate non-Ripken 2B comes along, I'd love to see him out there.

Treadway is a lot younger than Whitaker, and likely to be cheaper.
Besides, I can't really see him signing anywhere but Detroit.

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades.
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:05:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.082008.337@netcom.com> arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:
>
>Sure. Briley really hasn't been given a chance to play so I think it is
>unfair to use his .320 career OBP against him yet.

HUH????  Briley has almost 1500 career PA.  And he's 27.  Sounds fair
to me!  Actually, he hit quite well in 1989.  He simply hasn't done
*anything* since then.  I think a .320 OBP is a bit much to expect
right now.

Sure, if there is nobody else around, give him a shot to play.  But
don't make him the leadoff hitter!

>Besides, their other
>choices are to go with wasting Edgar Martinez in the #1 spot or resigning 
>Harold Reynolds who doesn't have a much better career OBP and would stifle
>the play of Bret Boone.

Looks to me like they kinda *have* to get somebody.  Or simply hang it
up and admit that they have no chance at ever fielding a winning team.
But at this point, Vizquel looks at least as promising in the leadoff
spot as Briley does.

So who do they have?

C: Valle		Weak hitter.
1B: Tino Martinez	Weak slugger, *no* OBP.
2B: Boone		Showed promise in the minors.  Let him lead off?
SS: Vizquel		A career year last year.
3B: Edgar Martinez	Power, average, patience.
LF: Briley		No power, no average, no patience.
CF: Griffey		See Edgar.
RF: Buhner		Power, when healthy.
DH: O'Brien		Not even as good as Tino.

I might consider a lineup of:
Boone
Vizquel
E. Martinez
Griffey
Buhner
T. Martinez
O'Brien
Valle
Briley

But they *really* need some offense out of 1B/DH.  You can't win games
when your 1B/DH are mediocre #6/#7 hitters!  Any prospects?

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: s6420120@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Mark LeLacheur)
Subject: Re: Clemens Market Value (trade with Toronto)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:27:20 GMT

       sign cone ,keep clemens , sign mcgwire, pay off and get rid of matt and 
jack and yes mo vaughn

1b mark mcgwire
2b tim naerhing ( cross your fingers he stays healthy)
ss john valentin (who cares as long he plays great defense
3b scott cooper (he'll be better than charlie hayes)
cat.  tony pena (let us hope he doesn,t play too much winterball again)
lf mike greenwell (for now )
cf ellis burks (if healthy )
rf phil plantier
dh any from (quintana,brunansky,zupcic)
if going badly they can always platoon(ugh)

sp
clemens
cone
viola
dopson(still getting stronger after major surgery)
anybody  (maybe darwin)
relief  harris,darwin,ryan,fossas,quantrill or hoy  

budget up maybe 3-4 million , but better defense and mcgwire make for a lot of
4-3 , 3-2 wins
From: RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Post-Draft Thoughts (was:Reaction to Rockies Draft)
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:11:43 GMT
 <1992Nov18.172522.16688@cs.cornell.edu> <BxzqAn.45p@mach1.wlu.ca>

ken breadner misses the point.  yeah, barberie hit .232, but even
with such a low batting average, he posted a higher on base percentage
than devon white has EVER posted in his life.

now, ken, what's the most important thing for a leadoff hitter to be
able to do? hint: three words; the first two are "get on" and the last
begins with a "b" and ends with an "e".

bob vesterman.
From: gt0317c@prism.gatech.EDU (BHANSALI,ANIL P)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Worrell & Smith
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:43:27 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Does anyone know the situation of Lee Smith?  I know St. Louis is trying
to trade him.  Is Worrell definitely not returning to St. Louis is 
Lee Smith is not traded.  I know he's a free agent, but i don't know
who else is really interested.

Thanks
bonzo

-- 
BHANSALI,ANIL P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0317c
Internet: gt0317c@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fdg@athena.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (Frank P. DiGiuseppe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: JAYSWINWORLDSERIES JAYSWINWORLDSERIES JAYSWINWORLDSERIES JAYSWINWORL
Date: 22 Nov 92 00:12:36 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

In article <4BXJuB3w165w@student.business.uwo.ca> s4lawren@student.business.uwo.ca (Stephen Lawrence) writes:
>Sorry,...I just flashed back to a month ago, when the Jays beat the crap 
>out of Atlanta.  My favourite part was when Hanoi Jane shook her fist in 
>rage at the unfairness of it all and buried her head in Ted's shoulder!

Not you again!! Geez, why do you feel this compulsion to post this
inflamatory drivel? "beat the crap out of Atlanta"??? Come on! What
series were you watching? 

Can't you be like the rest of us Jays fans and serenely revel in
the euphoria, rather than try to classlessly gloat at every opportunity?

Frank

-- 
Frank P. DiGiuseppe	McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
fdg@mcrcim.mcgill.edu	"Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
	    And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;" - J.G. Magee Jr.
Date: Saturday, 21 Nov 1992 15:09:53 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Clemens Market Value (read Lou Gorman!)
Distribution: na

i think it's pretty clear that no team with half a brain should
trade what clemens is worth for clemens, and that no team with half
a brain should trade clemens for less than what clemens is worth.
so, three possibilities:

   1) the sox keep clemens, and continue to suck.
   2) most teams don't have half a brain; clemens for toronto in 1993.
   3) the sox fit the bill for #2; nokes and maas for clemens in 1993.

bob vesterman.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Mitchell for Charlton and other trades. 
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:17:22 GMT
Organization: Boo!  

In <1992Nov20.165315.515@advtech.uswest.com> jwood@advtech.uswest.com (Jim Wood) writes:

>Have either of you considered the fact the M's might have already decided
>to give Henry Cotto a full-time shot at left field and the leadoff position?
>Henry has always been a low-key role player, one who never openly griped about
>lack of playing time (which we all know he desired more of), and has produced
>when given an opportunity.

>Cotto, if memory serves me, holds the record for successful steal percentage
>for players with 100 attempts.  He has good speed, is an intelligent base
>runner, has a good glove and range in the outfield, and may really shine given
>a shot at the every-day job. 

>I agree that the M's won't go out and get a leadoff man - simply because I
>think they have a good one in Cotto and the M's pitching and catching needs
>are greater!

Cotto is a good leadoff man only if your aim is to score as few runs
as possible.  Which, granted, some teams seem to attempt, but Lou Pinella
has never been known to manage one.  Cotto is indeed fast, but so are
the top Americans in track & field, and you'll never see any of the latter
become leadoff men.  Speed is of little value if you can't get on base,
and Cotto is well known for his rather successful attempt over the years
to turn out-making into an art form.  With a lifetime OBP of .303,
and an OBP last year of .294, he's obviously getting closer to perfection.
And with a robust .284 OBP vs righties over the last few years, and a
downright amazing .175 OBP vs righties last year, all he has to do is
lower his production against lefties a bit in order to earn his spot
in history.

Greg 

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Clemens Market Value (trade with Toronto)
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:18:50 GMT

In article <By6AHt.4II@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
>
>  I think there's no doubt that Ted is right. On the other hand, I'm 
>amused at how similar this comment is to the view that Jack Morris had
>a beneficial effect on the Jays, and I wonder exactly which stats we 
>would use to compare Clemens's "soulful" effect on the Sox to Morris's
>"winner" effect on the Jays.  ;->

Hey, I have *never* claimed that Clemens adds wins to his team other
than through the obvious mechanisms (he pitches a *lot* of *excellent*
innings).

If the Red Sox were to somehow trade Clemens (worth about 7-8 wins)
for Barry Bonds (worth about 10 wins), they would win more games.
They would also no longer have my support.

If the Sox traded Clemens for Gonzalez and Rodriguez, and then signed
Greg Maddux, they might even have an instant contender!   But I would
be rooting for the Rangers.

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mlstocku@zeno20.math.UWaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: Clemens Market Value (trade with Toronto)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:37:53 GMT

*Why would you want to trade for Clemens when you can simply sign Cone?

I would have to completely agree with this. Why would anyone bring up the idea of
trading Clemens for prospects and roster players if a team can just as well sign
a as good free agent starter and pay him just as much money per year as Clemens?

The whole idea is _Totally_ lame.
/Michael Stockus
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Ack Man and Gopher Ball for Rockies (Was: Re: The Cat goes to Denver?)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:23:00 GMT

In article <BxvB3t.1EK@encore.com>, jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (Joe Lundy)        
 writes...
>It sure has been a difficult time for Harold all of these months.
> 
>According to ESPN, Baylor wanted the Cat because he worked with him in St. Louis
>and he thinks that thin air up there in Denver will help his numbers.
> 
>Now that we've got Galarraga out of the way and some net.celebrities are
>appeased, whither Jim Acker?  Surely the Rockies can make room on their pitching
>staff.  Imagine the Meatball master in Colorado.  If only Galarraga could hit
>off of him.  There's an interesting matchup.
> 
Hey, I have an idea. Why don't the Rockies sign free agent relievers Jim "Ack 
Attack" Acker and Jeff "Gopher Ball" Reardon? That way somebody like Kevin 
Mitchell who was traded back to the NL yesterday could break the record for the 
longest home run ever hit. Think about this. With either of those two pitching, 
a ball could travel out of the state of Colorado (d::-) ).

Seriously, it could be possible that Denis Boucher will be an Expo next year. 
I say this since the Rockies took him in the third round of the expansion 
draft and Montreal made the Travis Buckley for the famed PTBNL trade the week 
before. What do other people think of this possibility?

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball