From: M.Titahmboh@lut.ac.uk (Mana TitahMboh)
Subject: Re: SADF Purge
Organization: Loughborough University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 14:07:55 GMT

In article <Dec.22.18.24.54.1992.14996@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio) writes:
|> M.Titahmboh@lut.ac.uk (Mana TitahMboh) wrote:
|> 
|> >In article <Dec.21.17.36.54.1992.27639@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
|> >detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio) had written:
|> >|> llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> >In article <Dec.20.19.33.27.1992.8310@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
|> >|> detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio) [commenting on Gavan's
|> post]
|> >|> writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> >[...]
|> >|> 

[ quotes of quotes removed]

|> >|> 
|> 

|> mt>This is what you would point to, to illustrate arrogance!
|> 
|> I am NOT arrogant, and am not using arrogance to make a point, I am
|> indicting and supporting my opinions, observations, and studies of
|> SA and its current political situation.  The purpose of this network
|> and newsgroup is the encouage discussion from all sides, and here is
|> my side.
|> 
|> mt>[But it is arrogant of me to point it out]
|> 
|> No, it is called discussion (or mild flaming, its okay, it is getting
|>                              cold here in New Jersey!)

This was not a flame, just a strong opinion [ on the views expressed]. As a
rule, i refrain from flaming.

|> 
|> >|> It is arrogant of the ANC or ANY, repeat ANY organization to call for
|> >|> the removal of the State President at such a critical time in the
|> >|> history of South Africa.
|> >|> 
|> 
|> >The ANC or ANY other **political organisation opposed to the present
|> system**
|> >has the right, nay the duty, to take every opportunity to exploit weaknesses
|> in
|> >the administration [ de Klerk]. For someone who "has studied and is above
|> >average intelligence", I am amazed you think the ANC should be propping up
|> a
|> >gov't which was "elected" by a small-very small- minority of the population
|> of
|> >SA!
|> 
|> NO, I do not suggest the ANC should prop up the present government.  It is
|> MY feeling the ANC should not be the next ruling party in SA.  It is an
|> organization whose leadership has not a clue as to how to compete in the
|> post Cold War world.  However, if the full voting majority of South African
|> citizens decide on ANC when a constitution which will protect all of the
|> citizens is in effect and UN supervised elections are held, then you can
|> dismiss my opinions.
|> 

We agree on most of this apart, notably, from who should run SA in the near
future. Not being South African myself, I cannot presume to express any feelings
on the matter. Neither, i think, should any other non-south african.
My limit is to talk about the blantant injustices, which were, and in some cases
are still, enshrined in the laws of the land.

|> Reform is not going to take place overnight, reform and change never
|> occurs overnight.  The American Revolution took a few years, and the

Is this a reason to let the SADF run riot? Is that a standard formula to use
when change is initialized, wait for a few centuries? I imagine - hope - your
concern is that the situation could degenerate into civil war [thats my concern
too] but i would still say, not because of any callousness, someone has to push
for change.

|> fighting and growing pains continue until this very day.  You would not
|> have any of the reforms if it was not for the De Klerk government, you
|> cannot tell me P.W. Botha would have done any of this.
|> 

Probably not, but this no reason to pretend that everything's marvelous.

|> >|> Those responsible for the improper action should be removed, and a
|> >|> complete investigation and report should be conducted.  This is going
|> >|> to be one of the stepping stones to reform you are going to have to
|> deal
|> >|> with, nothing is easy in politics, especially when it is caught up with
|> >|> police and military forces used for more than defence and protection.
|> >|> 
|> 
|> >Yes, like the cia in the seventies and early eighties? So what do you do,
|> just
|> >let them "get on with it"?
|> 
|> Hey, no system is perfect, if there was, we would have it here in the
|> US.  The CIA has some good points and some bad points, and in some cases

Name some of the good points. [on second thought don't, we are talking about SA
not the US]

|> crossed the line, but it is an organization which is under the control of
|> the Executive Branch in many instances and in the last thirty years or so

I imagine the SADF is "under the control" of the Exec Branch too, namely de
Klerk! So who should be held accountable over their "misbehaviour"? You tell
me.

|> was a valuable asset.  Every modern society has an intelligence branch,
|> it is an essential part of the defense of a nation.  The James Bond,
|> poison pen, trenchcoat image is humorous to envision but hardly realistic.

I suppose not. But is that asset so valuable that it should be allowed to
persecute a large majority of the society? Any way who has started all the
recent wars in that region?

|> 
|> >|> As for comments about my .signature, I am a Republican, a supporter of
|> >|> both President Reagan and President Bush, and am concerned about the
|> >|> next four years under Bill Clinton and Al Gore.  I did not support
|> >|> sanctions against SA, I feel the American and foreign companies who
|> >|> left will never return and the job loss and trade loss will hurt the
|> >|> SA economy for years to come.
|> >|> 
|> 
|> >Personnally i have no opinion, one way or the other, on your signature file
|> -
|> >though it might explain some of your outlandish ideas- and I am sure the
|> >majority of SA citizens will  appreciate your concern for their economy.
|> Being a
|> >bvsh-man, you should look at your man's perfomance on the american economy
|> >first.
|> 
|> The American and world economy would have hit the skids no matter who was
|> sitting in The White House, and I do not feel being a supporter of the
|> former and present leaders of the United States makes my opinions or
|> ideas outlandish, they are the concepts and ideals I have grown up with

I have nothing against "concepts and ideals" per se. I have some myself. For
instance, I think, rather naively, that there is no real need for any of the
conflicts that are being sustained around the globe at present. The ones you
express just sound outlandish to me.

|> and support.  Values is a fast factor in America, but it hardly had
|> anything
|> to do with who was in charge.  Bill Clinton will be the next President of
|> the United States, I do not like it, and I cannot wait for him to be thrown

 Please accept my condolences. 
I am not South African and it would be most presumptuous of me to express an
opinion on the length of Mr. de Klerk's presidency.

|> out in 1996.  You cannot wait for De Klerk to get out of office.  We have 
|> something in common, we do not like the men in charge of our respective
|> countries.  How about a trade?  (You MUST take Mrs. Clinton).

She is a very nice lady, but no thanks. 

|> 
|> 
|> For now, regards and happy holidays to all, let us see what 1993
|> will bring to both our countries.
|> 

Here here. Have a nice Christmas everyone. Or just have a nice holiday if you
are not celebrating Christmas.

|> 
|> -- 
|> David De Trolio - (detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu)
|> --------------------------------------------------
|> Reagan-Bush 1981-1988 + Bush-Quayle 1989-1992
|> An Era of Strong American Leadership

Mana