HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism (Take 2)
Date: 8 Oct 92 09:55:04 CDT


>
>I think so too. But, Monika, do explain how "a Polish anti-semitism"
>differs from other antisemitisms, since it apparently deserves a
>special name to set it apart.
>
>
>MB

Polski antysemityzm to pojecie rownie abstrakcyjne i rownie silnie
w historii zwalczane jak sily antysocjalistyczne. Wlasciwie nigdzie
tych sil zauwazyc nie bylo mozna, ale komunisci caly czas z silami
walczyli. Az sie okazalo, ze najwiekszymi silami antysocjalistycznymi
byli sami komunisci i wlasciwie to oni ten system rozlozyli bez zadnej
pomocy z zewnatrz - rok 1980 przeciez nie przyniosl zadnych
dlugofalowych zwyciestw, podobnie jak poprzednie rozruchy.
Sprawa z silami antysemitycznymi wyglada coraz podobniej. Ale
to juz tak jest, ze niektorzy ludzie musza miec zawsze jakies sily,
z ktorymi powalczyc byloby mozna. A jak sil zabraknie, to pozostaja
wiatraki.clear


A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: ******* Making friends ******
From: <AKBUKOWC@MTUS5.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 9 Oct 1992 22:52:13 EST
Organization: Computing Technology Services, Michigan Technological Univ.

         Od studenta z Michigan Technological University (USA)

  Dziewczyny i chlopaki jesli nudza was powazne rozmowy o antysemityzmie
i podobnych sprawach a macie ochote czasem popisac cos o studenckim
zyciu to mail'ujci do mnie ale jesli mozecie to na adres AKBUKOWC@MTU.edu


        From student at Michigan Technological University  (USA)

  Girls & boys if serious conversations about antisemitizm and similar
subjects make you boring, and you would like to write something about
students' life mail me, but if you can use AKBUKOWC@MTU.edu address
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 10 Oct 1992 07:07:15 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

ins548h@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr M.S. Popkowski) writes:

>Summary: 
>Keywords: 

>You are all idiots. Poles and Jews. Can't you write anything positive?


I'm positive Mr. Popkowski is an idiot.


I.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (The Not So Tall Adventurer)
Subject: Re: The Katyn massacre
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:53:48 GMT

lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski) writes:


> Some of you may know that in the last few days the Russian government
>handed over to the Poles previously top-secret materials concerning
>the murder of thousands of Polish officers in Katyn and other places.
>The NY Times has a front page article "Russian Files Show Stalin
>Ordered Massacre of 20 000 Poles in 1940". 

> It is worth remembering that among 4143 officers killed in Katyn
>there were 262 Jews, including the Chief Rabbi of the Polish Army,
>Major Baruch Steinberg (1897-1940). Other rabbis, together with many
>Catholic priests and a few Lutheran pastors were among the chaplains
>of the Polish Army executed in Katyn.

> Somewhere I read an estimate that about 5 % of officers in the prewar
>Polish Army were Jews, but there were much fewer Jews among
>the soldiers. Can anyone help me with the relevant references?

> Lech Borkowski
>lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu

I'm not sure of the details of the massacre of Polish officers in Katyn.
However, there were actually two towns called Katyn, and massacres occured at
both.  One was a massacre by the Red Army of Polish officers.  The other was a
massacre by the Nazis of the entire population of the village Katyn in Belorus. 
Only three people escaped.  This Katyn has become an important memorial in the
former Soviet Union. When a group I was a part of visited this memorial, a
Belorussian friend of mine expressed his anger that the government of the former
Soviet Union used this Katyn memorial to cover up, in a way, the tragedy of what
they had done in the other Katyn.  

Just an interesting note I thought I'd throw in.

Melinda Allen
-- 
Melinda K. Allen                  The LORD is close to the brokenhearted 
allenmk@ucsu.colorado.edu       and saves those who are crushed in spirit.   
allenmk@tramp.colorado.edu			               Psalm 34:18
From: podgorny@npac.syr.edu (Marek Podgorny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: MANY THANKS FOR POLISH WORD HELP!!!
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:54:58 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University NPAC/SCCS

In article <1992Oct12.130756.24637@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>, pjweaver@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com (Paul Weaver) writes:
>So what was the answer? Is there such a word? The suspense is killing me.
>-- 
>
>===============================================================================
>Paul J. Weaver                 | "It is well that war is so terrible, or men
>pjweaver@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com  |  should grow too fond of it"
>-------------------------------|       General R. E. Lee
>I speak only for myself        |       Battle of Fredricksburg, VA  Dec. 1862

I do not know what the answer of others was. To me, the word looks like "jebac'",
is a rusicism, and belongs to a numerous family of Polish descriptives
equivalent to "to fuck". On the 1 to 10 scale of offensivness, I would place it
at 7. "dig in a dirt"? Hm, might happen...

Marek Podgorny, NPAC, Syracuse University
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: To Roman Budzianowski
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:52:15 CDT


In article <7346@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> roman@hri.com (Roman Budzianowski) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.080126.9638@fuw.edu.pl>, michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper) writes:
>
>> I would only rather disagree that the term "Polish" refers necessarily
>> to any majority.  Any single Pole is equally Polish as a million
>> of them.
>
>What does it have to do with the issue at hand ? The point was that 
>your opinion n.e. representative of Polish opinion. It is dishonest to claim that or to claim
>that you know the Polish opinion to hundreds of people who listen to this discussion.

I feel that there is misunderstanding , not dishonesty. Could you
Roman quote that paragraph, which you assume dishonest ?

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: reading "Shoah"
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:25:34 GMT


 I looked into the text that accompanies the film and was
surprised to find many names of people and places misspelled.

 Lech Borkowski
lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:28:55 CDT


In article <1992Oct13.161552.29537@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>
>A copy of the Nazi prohibition against Kosher slaughtering was
>passed by the Sejm in 1938. It was scheduled to take effect in
>1942. Only the outbreak of the war in 1939 prevented its final
>confirmation by the Senate. See Heller, "On the Edge of
>Destruction", p. 107.
>

I cannot simply catch how such a prohibition would have anything
to do with placing anybody on "edge of destruction". Could anybody
specify in what sense kosher butchering is different from
regular butchering  - what is required for kosher butchering ?
And especially I would be interested to read the exact
statement from legislative that prohibited that kind of butchering.

>Earlier, in 1936, the Polish government promulgated, in the form
>of a decree issued by the Ministry of Commerce, and having the
>force of law, a copy of Nazi legislation ordering that signs on
>stores and establishments carry the name of the owners, as they
>appeared on birth certificates (Heller, p. 104).

That seems to be a little bit strange decree, somewhat resembling
Quebec law - but still so different from what we seem to
understand when anybody talks about Nazi legislation, even about
discrimination based on religion or national origin. I think
that if those Nazi accomplishments were not exceeded, we would
still have Nazism blooming and people not complaining horribly.
Especially that even it is difficult to notice special discrimination
like one that can be found in other countries that still are
called nowadays democracies. As an example I can bring example of
law that prohibits Palestinians from occupied territories to spend single 
night in Israel even when they are employed there. Sometimes they 
can get permission however.


A. Mazur



Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:15:52 GMT
Summary: References to Polish copies of Nazi legislation

In article <dobo.718864595@swalwell>, dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:
> Second, Kosher slaughtering of cattle was perfectly legal in Poland,
> provided it was done by a licensed ritual butcher. I heard many times that
> obtaining such a license was sometimes difficult because of obstacles laid
> by bureaucrats, one assumes for antisemitic reasons. But where was the
> "Nazi legislation" against ritual slaughtering? (I must confess my
> ignorance with respect to the latter: what exactly was the Nazi
> official attitude towards ritual slaughtering?)
> 
> >< I have to accuse you publicly of spreading lies. As you wanted examples of
> >< anti-Polish false statements being promoted publicly by American Jews, you
> >< have a good example now: one produced by yourself.
> >< (Unless, of course, you give the example, in which case I will promptly
> >< withdraw my accusations with appropriate apologies.)
> 
> >Do that.
> 
> You have to try a bit harder. But I will not break my promise.
> But Roger said "legislation" and nothing else will do.

A copy of the Nazi prohibition against Kosher slaughtering was
passed by the Sejm in 1938. It was scheduled to take effect in
1942. Only the outbreak of the war in 1939 prevented its final
confirmation by the Senate. See Heller, "On the Edge of
Destruction", p. 107.

Earlier, in 1936, the Polish government promulgated, in the form
of a decree issued by the Ministry of Commerce, and having the
force of law, a copy of Nazi legislation ordering that signs on
stores and establishments carry the name of the owners, as they
appeared on birth certificates (Heller, p. 104).

So, what is your criterion for "legislation"? If it is the
existence of an enforced law, then the decree on signs certainly
qualifies. If it is passage by the legislature, then the act
passed by the Sejm in 1938, prohibiting Kosher slaughtering,
should do. Or do you have other criteria?

				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: Nazis
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 04:29:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.122124.26394@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.060710.2185@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
>lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>
>>In article <1992Oct8.154151.10547@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu
>(Danny Keren) writes:
>
>>>I definitly think "Nazi death camps in Poland" or something similar
>>>should be used. When I was debating with neo-Nazi Holocaust
>>>deniers on the net, I took care to make it clear that the camps
>>>were erected and run by the Nazis.
>
>> Who came from Germany, nowhere else. It must be made clear.
>
>If Danny's carveats aren't politically correct enough for the Polish
>apologists, then why not put all the details:
>
>"And were placed in Poland becuase htere wre lots of Jews and rail lines
>there.  And were surrounded by Poles who had no idea that Jews (and others)
>were being killed there.  And when the was was finished survivors were
>killed in a variety of Polish run pogroms."

 In the article "Witnesses to evil", The New York Review of Books,
October 22, 1992,  Istvan Deak writes

"...quite paranoid accusation that the Poles were somehow
responsible for the Nazi Holocaust, or that the Germans chose
to locate their death camps in Poland because of Polish
anti-Semitism and not because most European Jews lived there
and because the Poles had no government to oppose the existence
of gas chambers in their own backyard. It was, after all, far easier
to transport a few hundred thousand Western European Jews 
to Poland than to ship over three million Polish and at least
a million other East European Jews to an imaginary Auschwitz
or Treblinka, set up, let us say, near Paris."

>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com

 Lech Borkowski
lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:35:12 CDT


In article <92847@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:

>
>It worries me because if we agree that I and many of my colleagues, who 
>feel little in common with the gentlemen mentioned above, have to be 
>ashamed of what they wrote since all of us were "Poles", than I will start 
>thinking about subscribing to Aleksander Mazur's theories of "Jews" being 
>responsible for the actions of some UB (secret police) bosses about 15 
>years earlier.
>

Do not think about subscribing to my theories, think about what
you are writing publicly, because other people will think about you
as first class jerk. Could you quote any sentence where I wrote
about Jews being responsible for the actions of some UB (secret
police) bosses about 15 years earlier ?

Aleksander Mazur
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:24:26 GMT

In article <matthew.718945561@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:

>>In the particular instance cited by Dawidowicz, the intended
>>impression that the ordinary reader will have obtained from the
>>cited passage is exactly as described by her. If you do a close,
>>lawyerly reading, you will indeed find that the author produces
>>the desired impression without actually saying what he seems to
>>say. But how many readers of such books will have read that closely?

>Or, he said it without saying it. It boggles the mind...

Adam's giving the guy too much credit.  Dawidowicz doesn't cite the 
whole article in question: she describes its general tone, and then gives
an example of the kind of things the author says.  IN THE CONTEXT (I
know, that's a difficult word around here) of the author's remarks,
which -- according to Dawidowicz -- tend to minimize Jewish efforts
for Marxist reasons, the passage says just what it says.  

Now, would someone like to find the original article (cited in D's source,
which is Shapiro) and confirm or deny that this is what it says?

Roger

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:32:41 GMT

aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
#
#Not exactly. Israel occupies territories. Inhabitants of occupied
#territiries did not ask for occupation. Israel isn't and shouldn't be
#at war with population living under occupation. We had some complaints about
#military promotions in Poland. In Israel based on national origin
#groups of people are excluded from military service at all. That
#is also discrimination.

True, Israel occupies territories. But her neighbours were calling
for its destruction before 67, when they occupied the same territories.

As for the army service, you simply cannot compare Israel with any
other country in that sense. Let's face it: you have a small country,
surrounded by hostile countries, and you have a part of the
population that identifies much more with the surrounding countries
than with the country it lives in (I am not complaining about that,
simply stating a fact). To let them serve in the army is a big
problem. And, anyway, to call it "discrimination" is a misuse of
the word. Going to the army in Israel means you spend at least
6 years of your life (3 regular + 3 reserve) there. It means that
you start studying later, you start your carrer later, and every year
you have to leave your business/studies/family/career and serve
a month in the reserve. Believe me, not too many people think its fun.

-Danny Keren.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pjweaver@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com (Paul Weaver)
Subject: Re: MANY THANKS FOR POLISH WORD HELP!!!
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 13:07:56 GMT
Reply-To: pjweaver@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina

So what was the answer? Is there such a word? The suspense is killing me.
-- 

===============================================================================
Paul J. Weaver                 | "It is well that war is so terrible, or men
pjweaver@ralvm29.vnet.ibm.com  |  should grow too fond of it"
-------------------------------|       General R. E. Lee
I speak only for myself        |       Battle of Fredricksburg, VA  Dec. 1862
From: ins548h@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr M.S. Popkowski)
Subject: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 03:40:28 GMT

Summary: 
Keywords: 

You are all idiots. Poles and Jews. Can't you write anything positive?
This discussion is pointless, it doesn't lead anywhere, it only makes
you more bitter. People like Adam Michnik (leading Polish Intellectual and 
politician of Jewish descent) have done much more to destroy antisemitism in
Poland than all of you, old farts, brought together.This is maybe rude, but
I am really sick of you. People following line of thinking similar to yours
are responsible for the current tragedy in Yougoslavia. I guess we are lucky
that Poland and Israel are few thousand miles apart.
Mirek.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: Jews under Soviets in Eastern Poland, 1939-1941
Keywords: Persecution by Soviet secret police, and facts vs. myths.
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 06:47:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.174812.21244@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> avr@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (adam.v.reed) writes:
>Gross, Jan Tomasz, and Irena Grudzinska-Gross: W czterdziestym
>nas matko na Sybir zeslali. London: Aneks, 1983.
>
>In a footnote to page xx in his preface to RfA, Gross cites a
>1944 memorandum of the Polish Foreign Ministry in London,
>compiled from personal files at the Polish Red Cross in Teheran,
>giving a statistical breakdown of Polish citizens deported by
>the Soviet secret police to the Siberian Gulag, where most of
>them died. Of the deportees, 52% were non-Jewish Poles; 30% were
>Jews. At the time, Jews accounted for about 11% of the population
>of eastern Poland; non-Jewish Poles, about 41%.  I.e., a Jew
>stood two to three times the non-Jewish Pole's chance of being
>arrested by the secret police and sent to death in the Gulag.

 Let me add to this picture. Both of my parents and the whole
family of my mother was convicted by the Soviet NKVD "court"
for being anti-Soviet and collaborating with anti-communist
organizations AFTER the war. In the case of my mother it was 1949! 
They met Jews in the Soviet concentration camps.
They also met Jews who were simply bystanders, just doing
their job, like one woman doctor, whose job was to assign
each prisoner a health category. That was often a question
of survival in those camps. I don't remember my parents
saying anything bad about relations with Jews in those
camps. Just the opposite. My father was a tailor and worked for 
some time under a Jewish boss, who was a prisoner himself. They became
good friends and helped each other. In those camps being
alone was one of the worst things that could happen to you,
since the Soviets deliberately mixed the political prisoners
with the criminals, hoping that the criminals will
terrorize the others and thus will do part of the NKVD job.
 
>				Adam_V_Reed@ATT.com

 Lech Borkowski
lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper)
Subject: Re: To Roman Budzianowski
Organization: Warsaw University Physics Dept.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 08:51:22 GMT

Roman Budzianowski pisze:

>(...)
>Sure. You can write nonsense without my permision too.

Dziekuje, ale nie skorzystam.  Nie bede odbieral zajecia Tobie.  :-)

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     My opinions are my opinions.   But facts are those of everyone.     |
+------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
|     Michal~ Szleper                |     "All you need is love, love,   |
|     (michals@fuw.edu.pl)           |      Love is all you need..."      |
+------------------------------------+------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Ryszard Kuklinski
Date: 13 Oct 92 08:20:56 CDT


In article <1992Oct12.202306.16315@husc3.harvard.edu> dobrowol@husc8.harvard.edu (Pawel Dobrowolski) writes:
>
>
>
>	Wydawal nie tajemnice Ukladu Warszawskiego (do ktorych nie mial
>dostepu) a tajemnice Wojska POLSKIEGO.  To jest zasadnicza roznica, bo
>jesli Amerykanie wiedza gdzie sa polski bunkry dowodzenie to skad wiemy
>ze te wiadomosci nie trafily do Bundeswhery.  

Nie wiemy, ale dlaczego mialyby trafic akurat do Bundeswehry. Wydawal
tajemnice Ukladu Warszawskiego do ktorych mial z racji swego stanowiska
dostep - byl lacznikiem z dowodztwem Ukladu.

>	Po drugie w wypadku III Wojny Swiatowej armia polska, jako najlepiej
>rozpracowana by byla pod najciezszym atakiem ze wszystkich armii UW.

W przypadku III Wojny Swiatowej lepiej nie myslec, co by sie stalo.
Dzialal w kierunku rozlozenia najwiekszego zagrozenia, jakim byly
Sowiety, a nie Nato. 

>	Po trzecie jesli nie bral pieniedzy od Amerykanow to z czego teraz
>zyje

Podejrzewam, ze jest teraz pod opieka, ale to nie znaczy, ze wtedy bral
pieniadze.

>	Po czwarte, jesli byl takim patryjota to czemu poinformowal CIA a
>o Solidarnosci i innych POLSKICH organizacjach zapomnial.

Przekazywal te informacje, do ktorych mial dostep. A akurat byl
przygotowywany stan wojenny, i te informacje akurat przekazal.

>	Po piate, jesli on twierdzi ze nie bral od Amerykanow ZADNYCH
>pieniedzy to jeszcze nie jest zaden dowod ze tak naprawde bylo.

Ale tez nie ma dowodu, ze bral. Liczy sie to, czy dziala dla dobra
Polski. Nikt dotychczas nie odpowiedzial za podporzadkowanie Polski
Sowietom. Tam trzeba szukac winnych a nie tam, gdzie ktos zniewoleniu
sie przeciwstawial.

>
>
>
>				Pawel Dobrowolski
>				dobrowol@husc8.harvard.edu
>
>


A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: js2061@bgsu.edu. (jim)
Subject: help me with a polish word
Followup-To: soc.culture.polish
Organization: BGSU
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:31:56 GMT

please help me with a little of my polish heritage.  my father, a second
generation pole insists that there is a word(i'll spell it phoenetically,
because i'm not that familiar with the language)  "jobach" meaning "to dig
in the dirt."  My grandmother insists that no such word exists.  Does it? 
Or is there one similar that means something close?  thanks for any help
you can give me, i'd like to hear the end of this stupid family argument
that has been going on for years.

                                            appreciatively,
                                                       jim saxa