HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:39:36 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Right Standing with God?

> "What puts you in right standing with God ... OR WHAT does God demand of
> us so that we are not under Divine condemnation?
>
> You have F O U R choices :
>
> A) Perfect obedience to God's moral commands/precepts.
>
> B) Faith in Christ alone.
>
> C) The indwelling of the Holy Spirit
>
> D) Both Answers B and C.

Jesse,
I say A and D, because each one is a step in the growing process
of a Christian. First I believed in Christ, then I received the
Baptism of the Holy Spirit and finally I am tring to live in perfect
obedience(this is very hard). I truly don't believe that I will
ever be perfect in this life time, but I will at least labor to be.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 16:22:06 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      re: Morality as hiring criterium (was Homosexuality)

Subject: re: Morality as hiring criterium (was Homosexuality)

--Kerry---------------------------------------------------------------->
I have a friend who is constantly applying for jobs for which she is
unequivocally unqualified (like "requires 4 years editing experience"--
she says, "well, I can type.").  While there are certainly people who
apply for jobs they honestly think they are qualified for, there are far
more who think that being in college qualifies them for any job there is.

It's really very annoying.

MAKS> We hired for a Director in our area. I qualified, but no thanks,
      I don't like the politics. Anyhow, they got 80 people who
      submitted applications. Of that only 8 were remotely qualified.
      Of that only 2 were really qualified. In our case, I've heard we
      didn't have a black apply and they are going out again. The first
      time we only applied locally.

      I would imagine this next go around will have some 500 applications
      of which only 15 will be remotely qualified, of which ???? Yes, it
      really is annoying. Much of which I see is like the New Age posts.
      They don't know what they are applying for, but act like it
      shouldn't matter.

      And no, I don't mind they went after a black. I just hired a young
      black man, not because he was black, which made personal very
      happy, but because he was the ONLY one who really knew what was
      going on as an engineer backup for our Unix side.


Maks.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:02:22 -0400
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: When we meet God face to face

I don't have my old testament with me now - could you send the beginning
of Isaiah 6  - the part you are referring to.  Thanks very much.
Elaine.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Subject: PLEASE cut the "mel-too-isms" --- even sarcastic ones
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:40:31 GMT

In <CHRISTIA%92100112333279@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:

[ ... --- 37 lines of direct quote of another posting to this group ]

>Do I really have to say anymore?
>Tom Brewer

How about "Excuse me for wasting bandwidth"!

Aside from that, I find it highly annoying to wading through something like
this only to find that the re-poster has effectively added NOTHING of value.
-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:19:47 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

This thread sheds new light on a major difference between a devout
Catholic friend and myself:  We were discussing what it will be like to
finally see God.  We both said, at the same time: "I can't wait!" (me);
"I'm dreading it!" (her).  We both just looked at each other,
uncomprehending.  Now I think she must have been thinking "How can you say
that, with all that sin on your soul that still needs purging and
cleansing, particularly since you haven't even had the intercession of the
Catholic church?"  While I was thinking "How overjoyed she'll be when she
stands before God, basking in his love, washed clean by the blood of
Christ, and realizes she didn't have to add one iota to what he did by his
death on the cross."


-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:38:38 EST
From:         "PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON" <Z$T@FCCJ.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Right Standing with God?

DEAR JESSE,

           I WOULD CHOOSE D FOR B AND C.  BECAUSE I BELIVE THAT FIRST YOU MUST
HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST AND THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST DWELL IN YOU.

           YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST,

                  PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:16:02 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Heaven, etc.

Eric Ewanco wrote: "More specifically and Scripturally, he [in the epistle of
James] is saying that good deeds makes faith _complete_."

This is correct.  Other commentators have also used the word "perfect."

Eric also wrote: "What Paul said is correct -- we are saved by faith, and not
by works _apart from faith_.  Paul never said, however, that deeds played no
part in this ...  Paul never said we were saved by faith _alone_."

Paul always presented a balanced view of faith and works, as Eric said James
did.  In Ephesians, for example, the first three chapters concern the doctrine
and faith of the salvation of the church which is His body, while the last
three chapters concern the practical outworking of that salvation.  Do not Paul
and James agree that some outworking must accompany one's faith?  The first
epistle of John makes it quite clear that one who claims the faith but who does
not show any outward evidence of such is simply not in the faith.  This is
quite different, however, from being saved by faith alone in Christ's death and
resurrection and ascension for one's sins, new eternal life and inheritance,
plus adding works in order to merit entrance into one's inheritance in the
heavenly places.

Eric also wrote: "Paul tells us in Philippians to "work out our salvation with
fear and trembling" (NIV).  Not sure that assurance is justified here."

There is a world of difference between "work out" and "work for."  Assurance of
our salvation is not discussed here (Philippians is not a doctrinal epistle but
a practical one), but it is assumed as we out-work our salvation in the here
and now.

Eric also wrote: "anyone who has saving faith in Christ will naturally do what
God asks"

How about, "would naturally WANT to do what God asks," as Paul relates in
Romans 7:14-25.

Eric also wrote: "How do you understand the parable of the Sheep and the Goats
in Matthew 25:21ff?  ....  No mention of faith here.  How does one reconcile
this with salvation by faith alone?"

How does one reconcile this with salvation by faith, plus works for saving
merits, since there is no mention of faith?  Those being addressed are a
different calling than those Paul addressed, and would seem to come under the
principle stated in Romans 2:12-16.  There is room in God's kingdom for those
who have never heard the good news of Christ Jesus.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: pittman@pi.uleth.ca (Shawn Pittman)
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:13:30 GMT

"(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> writes:

>Darren asks:
>>In Romans 5:12 we read that death entered the world through sin, and that
>>death came to all men because all sinned.  This is often taken to mean that
>>if Adam & Eve had not sinned, nobody/nothing would ever die.
>>
>>We touched on this in Sunday School this past weekend, I while thinking about
>>it I considered two other standard beliefs based on Bible:
>>    a) Jesus was without sin
>> and
>>    b) Jesus really died on the cross.
>>
>>So that leads me to today's question: if Jesus was without sin, and if death
>>results from sin, why did Jesus die?  Why was he killable?


>	I think I understand what your getting at:  If my physical
>death is caused by my sin (as is commonly believed by christians (?))
>how could Jesus, who did not sin, suffer a physical death.

>Is that it?

>My first response was - that's a good question.  My answer was to
>borrow from Lewis and say that while he died, he couldn't _ stay _
>dead.  But I'm not sure now that that answers the question.

>My next reponse:  Is physical death purely the result of sin?  I am
>not sure that that is the case.  Spiritual death, yes; physical death,
>I don't know.

>Mark 

You have raised an interesting point in your response but have missed (I think)
the real reason for Jesus' death.  The Bible tells us that God is both loving and
just.  This means that he loves us, even when we sin, but that the sin is a
separation (sp) from God for which someone must pay the price (the just side of
God).  How then can a loving God condemn us?  Answer: John 3:16 "For God so loved
the world that he gave His only son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not die
but have eternal life."
	Jesus didn't die for anything He did.  Jesus died to save US!  God
bridged the gap between himself and us by allowing the sinless Jesus to die for
us (ie. in place of us).  Jesus has taken our sins upon himself and thus open the
way for those who believe in Him to come to God.  Though we may die physically,
we will have eternal life in Heaven BECAUSE Jesus died for us.  That is the why
in why Jesus had to die.

May the Lord Bless you and keep you in His love and mercy always.

Shawn
 
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: billc@housing.msstate.edu (Bill Chapman)
Subject: Re: Right Standing with God?
Organization: Housing Department, Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:02:27 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92093005161657@ASUACAD.BITNET> Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:03:03 CDT
>From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
>Subject:      Right Standing with God?
>Dear All on the "Net" ;
>
>I have a question for you guys :
>
>"What puts you in right standing with God ... OR WHAT does God demand of
>us so that we are not under Divine condemnation?
>
>You have F O U R choices :
>
>A) Perfect obedience to God's moral commands/precepts.
>
>B) Faith in Christ alone.
>
>C) The indwelling of the Holy Spirit
>
>D) Both Answers B and C.
>
>
>So which is it folks??

Jessee:

This test contains a logical fallacy called "poisoning the well," as it 
forces the answerer to choose from YOUR own (poisoned) answers, as if your 
answers contained the meanings they wanted to convey.  Once the trap is set, 
you can jump on them for choosing the water, because of the poison in it.

The correct answer, for example, is probably some combination of A, B, and 
C, which is not a choice you allowed.  Only perfect obedience is 
acceptable.  Only Christ was perfectly obedient.  We can receive the 
reward for his perfect obedience by faith, and exercise that obedience 
daily, only by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

--
Bill Chapman <BillC@Housing.MSState.edu>   (601) 325-2042
Computing Consultant <wcc1@Msstate.bitnet> P.O. Box 1262
Dept. of Housing & Residence Life          Mississippi State, MS  39762
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Security of salvation?
Date: 5 Oct 92 23:45:20 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

The opinion is often expressed that no Christian can lose his or her
salvation, various reasons being given.

How can this be reconciled with the existence of people who show all the
signs of being Christians, who believe themselves to be Christians, who
then lose their faith in Christ, decide God doesn't exist and give up?

I can only think of three ways to explain this while holding to the idea
that it's impossible to "lose one's salvation":
 * It's possible to give up all attempt at serving God, stop believing
   even in his existence, and still be saved. This seems wildly unbiblical.
 * Every single one of these people will sooner or later turn back to
   Christ. This seems wildly improbable.
 * These people weren't really Christians, they just thought they were.
   But in this case, where is our security in our salvation? Could not
   any of us at any time discover ourselves not to be true Christians
   after all?
   "But," you say, "I know I am a Christian, and I know that I am saved."
   The people I'm talking about would have said exactly that, and they would
   (apparently) have been wrong. What real grounds have we for "knowing"
   that we are different?

I don't see any way round this; it seems a fatal flaw in the doctrine.
Can anyone here convince me otherwise?
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:41:49 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Basis of our Right Standing

Dear All on Christia ;

It has come across to a brother on the network that mayby my little
test question may not be from the best of motives ... possibly.

Well, I am here to say that as God is my witness, my motive was to share
good things from the written Word ... NOT exault myself above everyone,
as if I had superior intelligence in the face of preposterous peons.

Please, I am NOT attempting to trick ANYONE with my multiple-choice
question, nor appear like a condescending member of the intelligensia.
I pray that everyone will take my question seriously ... in fact you may
respond by E-mail if you prefer and I will not announce any person's
answer by name on the net.

I wish to deal with the question today in a short post.
Again, I am sorry if I have appeared condescending.



Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:52:34 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Sinless Perfection

Dear John ;

We have to keep things in context.
If we could never sin as Christians, why are we told to confess our sins
and faults to each other so that we may be healed.

In Christ (in that Christ' righteousnessis imputed to us), we are seen
by the Father as perfect due to our union with Jesus.
However, in our earthly experience we progressively grow in grace in that
sin is being weeded out of our lives bit-by-bit.
Even the great Peter sinned in hypocracy and was confronted by Paul face to
face in the book of Galatians.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:37:53 -0500
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      That P' word, again

Dear Tom;

>Brian:
>About your comments:

>> Therefore, proginosko most likeley refers to intellecutal activity or
>> understanding.  God understood who would respond to the Salvation offered
>> by Christ, and therfore predestined them to be justified and glorified
>> through him.

>How did/does God understand who would "respond" to the Salvation offered?
>Also, does Christ save His people, or does He merely "offer" to save them if
>they let Him?

God foreknows who will accept Christ.  God gives everyone the faith to
believe.  God knows from eternity past who will accept Christ through this
faith and so predestines them to justification and glorification.  You're not
referring to God's mode of perception regarding future events, are you?

Brian
From: superc@conquest.ksu.ksu.edu (Shawn E Chase)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: DEATH PENALTY- for or against?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 09:52:15 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: conquest.ksu.ksu.edu


Just what the subject says. I would be interested in hearing how members of
Christia feel concerning capital punishment. Are you for it or against it? why?
PLease e-mail me with your comments and attitudes..All I ask is that you justify
your position with scripture, and please be hermaneutically (sp?) correct. 
 Personally, I abhor the idea of capital punishment, but I am, however,
interested in hearing arguments both pro and con.
 Again, I ask that you email me, as I do not read this group on a regular basis!!
..thanks in advance

-- 
Shawn E. Chase             "Live like you'll die tomorrow,
SuperC@Matt.KSU.Edu         die knowing you'll live forever."
aka Tha Hood of Good        -Rich Mullins 'Live Right'
        "No sir, I didnt like it"- Mr. Horse                  
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 07:31:43 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Why Did Jesus Die?

>You have raised an interesting point in your response but have missed
>(I think) the real reason for Jesus' death.


	I wasn't talking about WHY Jesus died.  In fact, I didn't give
a reason at all.  I understand Darren's question to be aimed not at
Jesus' death, but rather at the belief that our physical death is
caused by sin - no sin, no physical death.  Jesus is an example used
to highlight this issue, since he was sinless and since he died - no
sin, yet death.  There have been a several points raised that to me
indicate that His death is perhaps not a good example to use.
Nevertheless, the original question remains (actually, I think it has
been answered): is our death caused by our sin?

This is why I didn't talk about the real reason Jesus died.


Mark
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 21:24:34 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: re: Morality as hiring criterium (was Homosexuality)
 <920921.16272452.001853@USM.CP6>

In article <920921.16272452.001853@USM.CP6>, MICHELE LOFTON
<MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET> says:
>
>>I can show a reason why I could discriminate based religious grounds in
>any company you choose to give me.
>
>Would discrimination be Christianlike?  How will you judge who is a real
>"CHRISTIAN"?  Some people who claim to be Christians are not and some who
>are Christians may not be considered so by those Christians who has
>different views.
>[...]

Hmmm - wouldn't it be more productive to hire the best person for the job?
(I mean in strict qualifications, etc)  I was always taught that faith
and belief was a very personal thing - not a checkbox on an employment
application.

If I were an employer, my first concern would be to hire people best
suited to do the job.  I would like my workers to do their jobs, not
spend their time "witnessing" to my other employees.

My feeling is that I DON'T care what my employees do on their own
time - be it satanic rituals, door-to-door "witnessing" to others,
selling encyclopedias, wild S&M parties, or whatever.  As long as they
arrive at work ready to be productive for my business, why should I
care?

I recall that Kerrey mentioned some examples of "special" places where
Christians would/wouldn't fit the job (Christian book store vs. porn
shop) - no problem - do you even THINK an active Christian would apply
for a job at a porn shop - and vice versa, would a pagan worshipper
bother applying at a Christian book store?  In both cases - NO!

But, would a pagan apply for a computer programmers job?  Sure.  Would
a Christian apply for a computer programmers job?  Sure.  I don't see
the difference between a Christian computer programmer and a pagan
computer programmer - to me they are computer programmers!  My concern
is can they do the job - write the code, etc - not what their beliefs
are.

I find that those who resist non-discrimination laws are the very same
people who are desparate to discriminate against those who would be
"protected" by such laws.

It's a sick world.

-Tim
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Heaven,
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:35:57 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92092807581895@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>John writes in his first epistle that when we confess our sins, God is
>faithful, not only to forgive us, but to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
>That means we are cleansed, purified, etc. No purgatory involved.

   We are cleansed in this way by Baptism.  How are we cleansed from
the sins committed _after_ Baptism?  Also, are you saying that
cleansing is the same as forgiveness?  Finally, what if one dies
before asking forgiveness for some (minor or venial) sins?

   Let me say this another way.  Once we have died, if and when we are
saved, but still have imperfections and impurities on our souls,
Purgatory is used to perfect us, in order that we may enter the
Kingdom of Heaven.  You say, and I agree, that God cleanses us from
all unrighteousness.  We disagree as to how He does it.

   My impression is that you believe that this cleansing is done once,
and that's it.  But if this were the case, it seems to me that one
would not sin anymore.  But even those Christians who claim to know
they are saved still sin.  And sin is a stain on one's soul that must
be removed.  If one dies with this stain on his soul, it must be
removed somehow, because no unclean thing shall enter Heaven.  The
only way it would make sense that such cleansing need only be done
once would be if sin no longer made one impure.  That sounds to me
like a license to sin.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:53:41 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?

Dear Gareth ;

It is I again.Jesse.

Tell me : "Can anyone who has been Regenerated by God's Spirit turn from the
Faithin light of Jesus' words from John 6 and John 10?"
Respectively, they assert, "It is the will of my Father that I should lose
NONE of all whom He has given me"<and> "I give them ETERNAL life and they
shall NEVER die."


Further, based upon Jesus' sin-substitutionary atonement, if Jesuswas
imputed with the sins of His people with its concomitant guilt and punishment,
then, HOW can anyone FAIL to have eternal lifefor whom Christ died?
HOW can they be LEGALLY punished in Hell if ALL of their guilt was removed
with its related punishment?
If all the punishment due those for whom Jesus diedwas laid to His charge,
will God punish TWICE for the same crimes?
Will God NOT honour the Son for His saving work or will the Father still cast
those whose sins were expunged into Hell?



Jesse
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