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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 21:23:40 -0500
From:         Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      meaning of Amen

James Keifer sent me a thoughtful reply concerning my previous post
on "amen, amen." I feel that it should be shared with the list, and so
here is the text of his letter.

=======================================================================
Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@UBVMS.BITNET>

Bob:

I am doubtful of the argument you quote from the JEWISH BIBLE about
the meaning of "AMEN, AMEN" in the Gospel of John. With my
concordance open, I notice that the words often occur in the middle
of a speech attributed to Jesus (5:24f; 6:47; 13:16,20f; 14:12;
16:23), and that when they occur at the beginning of a speech, there
is sometimes no previous assertion by someone else that they could
be said to agree or disagree with (10:7; 12:24).

If we look at the Synoptic Gospels, where the "AMEN" typically
occurs singly rather than in pairs, we find many more examples
(Matthew 5:18,26; 6:2,5,16; 10:15,23,42; 11:11; 13:17; 16:28; 18:13,
and so on) where it is very hard to see how the AMEN can refer to a
previous remark by another speaker. Probably there are more of these
in the Synoptists than in John, because John often records dialogue,
whereas they usually record speeches and sermons, with no one else
talking. In any event, I cannot understand the Synoptists' "AMEN I
say to you..." as meaning, "You are right (or wrong) in what you
just said, and now in return I say..." when there is no indication
that anyone else has said anything. I am driven back on the
interpretation that "AMEN I say to you" means "I solemnly and
emphatically assure you."

     As noted, the Synoptists have a single AMEN and John a double.
I can think of two explanations for this.
     The first is that it is simply a difference in style between
translators.  They were, after all, translating Aramaic into Greek,
and therefore not reporting the exact words. If the Galilean idiom
was a double AMEN, but Hellenistic Jews used a single AMEN for
emphasis, then it is a judgement call whether the double is to be
preserved in translating. If so, then there is no reason not to
apply conclusions drawn from the Synoptists in interpreting John.
And in the Synoptists the "AMEN I say to you" normally CANNOT be
understood as a reply to a statement by another, and must be a sign
of emphasis.
     The second explanation is that Jesus had two usages. When he
said, "AMEN I say to you," He meant, "I solemnly assure you," and
when He said, "AMEN AMEN I say to you," He meant, "You are right (or
wrong) and I say to you." We then suppose that the Synoptists record
only instances of the first usage and John only instances of the
second. This would fly if all of John's usages were clearly AMEN
AMEN of agreement. But NONE of them, as far as I can see, need to be
intrepreted as AMEN of agreement, and some of them seem to exclude
the notion of agreement with a previous statement by someone else.

Your author points out that the text of John 3 says that Jesus
ANSWERED AND said to Nicodemus. I answer and say that the phrase
here does not always imply a response to a previous utterance.
Several times in the Synoptists (M 11:25; 17:4; 22:1; 26:63; 28:5; P
9:5; 11:14; L 13:14; 14:5; A 5:8 and so on) we find "answered and
said" when there is no indication of a previous speech, or sometimes
even of a previous speaker. Admittedly I have no examples of this
from John, and it is arguable that John always does use "answer" as
an English writer would.

Your author notes that AMEN is routinely used in the Old Testament
to express agreement with what has just been said. True ("Amen"),
but in every instance that I know, it is a question of agreement
with a prayer, a praise, a blessing, a curse, or the like. Someone
prays, "Lord, send us rain for our crops," and everyone answers,
"Amen," meaning, "We join in and ratify that prayer."  A priest
about to administer "bitter waters" to a wife suspected of
unfaithfulness says, "If you are innocent, may this do you no harm,
but if you are guilty, may you rot." She answers, "Amen," meaning,
"If I am guilty, may I rot." Blessings and curses are read from the
Law, and the people answer, "Amen." The meaning is always, "May it
be so. Grant that it may be so." There is no instance that I can
find where it means, "The opinion just expressed is one that I
hereby pronounce to be correct." We find this use of AMEN, at the
end of a prayer or a blessing or a hymn of praise, in the New
Testament.  Most of the books of the NT end with an AMEN, though not
in all manuscripts, so that it may be an editor's or copyist's mark
for the end of the scroll. This seems to be simply a different usage
from the "AMEN I tell you" attributed to Jesus. He is never using it
to reply to a blessing or prayer or the like.

In short, I do not see that your man has proved his point. Nor do I
see that his point is important. This thread arose out of the
question, "Was Jesus polite to Nicodemus? Did He agree with what
Nicodemus said?" Since, according to your author, the AMEN can mean
either, "You are right" or "You are right, NOT!" I do not see how
this line of interpretation can be used to tell whether Jesus was
"respectful" of the beliefs of Nicodemus, or how it can be used in
other contexts to show that a certain statement was right since
Jesus agreed with it (given that He may have been disagreeing with
it instead).

You will note that I am sending this to you privately. Feel free to
pass it on, if so disposed, either to Dan and Jesse or to the list
or to others.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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