From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: house-rules
Date: 12 Oct 92 06:05:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <QeqB2ey00VoxQ2qapq@andrew.cmu.edu> jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph E. Beck) writes:

>Yes, we've all ready the official description of what a cleric is.
>What the thread is concerned with (imo) is game balance.  The cleric
>can spank the thief, and has spells, and has better saves.  This led
>us (in our group) to swap cleric and thief attacks and hit dice.

Well, gee, you might as well just say "A cleric can spank a mage.  Let's
switch the mage and cleric attacks and hit dice."

The point is that a thief is not supposed to fight (not face-to-face,
anyway).  Of course the cleric can spank him.

>>Although many of the thief's skills can be duplicated through spells,
>>no other class can REMOVE mechanical traps.

>Really, can't mages do spell research to create such a spell?
>Alternately, use an unseen servant to spring the trap.  What?  The
>the trap is sprung by weight?  Have your unseen servant move rocks to
>the appropriate area, etc.

Really?  And just how many unseen servants are you going to conjure
up in one day?  The thief can remove 100 traps if he wants.  Can
your spell do that?

And how do you propose to find these traps?  Cleric spell?  Great,
how many Find Traps is your cleric going to memorize?

The point is that, yes, it's possible to replace the thief with
magic, but the thief has the advantage that he can do it any
time he wants, as often as he wants.

Hell, why not get rid of fighters?  There's nothing they can do that
can't be substituted with magic!

>Ok, so you're 10th level thief is better than the mage at reading 8th
>and 9th level scrolls.  2 questions:  how often does this come into
>play?  And if your party found an eigth level scroll would they let
>the thief read it (I certainly wouldn't).  Most groups I've seen find
>relatively few scrolls.

You find a scroll with a spell that the mage already has in his
book.  What do you do?  Give it to the thief!  Besides, the mage
can *write* scrolls for the thief to use.

>I disagree.  Ok, you're thief got behind them and backstabs.  Now
>they're pissed off and clobber you.  You have a worse AC than the
>cleric, have less hit points, and don't save as well.  Sure, for the
>instant you spring you're surprise you're mondo, but then you're meat.

Well what are you fighting?  20 orcs?  The thief shouldn't have to
backstab, killing orcs is the job of the fighters.  Now, when you
run into that 20th level drow cleric/mage, that's when the thief
comes in and backstabs.  And if he gets him, the drow won't have
a chance to fight back, so you don't have to worry about being
clobbered.

>I think even low level thieves are exceedingly fun, but not very
>powerful.

Well, I've never played a thief before, but I'm hoping to play one in a
campaign that a friend of mine will be starting soon (hint, hint, Matt ;-)
and I'm really looking forward to it.  I think the thief offers the
best role-playing possibilities.

>I still contend the thief isn't as effective in combat as the cleric.

You may as well argue that the thief isn't as effective in combat as
a fighter.  No kidding!  That's not his job.


>Nor is he as effective as the mage
>in or out of combat.  A  9th level mage with good spell selection can be
>an incredible fighter, or an awesome thief, depending on the need. 

Now that depends, doesn't it?  A 4th level thief is much more effective
than a 4th level mage in combat, and possibly even out of combat.  Now
a 9th level mage might be very effective in combat, as long as he doesn't
get hit.  You know, those robes and funny hats just scream "I'm a mage!
Better shoot me with an arrow before I fireball you!"

And a thief is always a better thief than a mage, simply because the mage
is limited in what he can do.

Mage: Oh, I'll have my unseen servant set off the trap.

GM:  OK, he does.  A block drops from the ceiling, and everyone takes 10d6
     points of damage.

Party:  Great idea, Mage!  [Party then proceeds to tie the mage up with his
        own intestines.]

>I'll briefly restate:
>Thieves can't fight as well as clerics in hand to hand.

Nor should they.

>Thieves have worse saving throws than clerics.

So what's the problem with this?

>Thieves have no spell ability

That's not their job.

>Thief abilities can be emulated/beaten by magic.

Only limited.  Even if the cleric finds the trap, he has no way of knowing
what it does, or how to trigger it/disarm it (unless he's seen it before).

A mage who spends all of his spell slots learning Unseen Servant, Knock,
and other thief-imitating spells is pretty damn useless for anything else.

>Thieves can't take as much punishment as clerics in combat.

Nor should they.

>Thieves have worse ACs than clerics

And they should.


Most of your points seem to be centered around combat.  Do you run a
very combat-heavy campaign?  If so, I can see why you think thieves are
under-powered.  But when you keep in mind that thieves aren't supposed
to run into combat, they don't seem so weak.  I don't understand why
you feel this need to turn thieves into fighters.


-- 
Jorge Diaz                       | "I want you to remember, Clark... in all
Georgia Institute of Technology  |  the years to come, in your most private
Office of Information Technology |  moments...my hand at your throat.  I want
ccoprdj@prism.gatech.edu         |  you to remember the one man who beat you."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd