From: parkhugj@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Gregory J Parkhurst)
Newsgroups: alt.angst
Subject: Re: qualities in men
Date: 12 Jan 1993 22:39:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: parkhugj@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Gregory J Parkhurst)
NNTP-Posting-Host: l130b1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <93012.103326IDJMW@ASUACAD.BITNET> <IDJMW@ASUACAD.BITNET>jo writes:
> yeah, the joys of a man who doesn't find small talk and getting to know
> me necessary, just wants to wine me and dine me and stick various parts
> of his anatomy down my throat. don'tcha just love it.

I don't have a problem with small talk as a way to get to know someone.  I  
really enjoy getting to know people, assuming we have *some* interests in  
common; it's pretty hard to get to know someone if you're so far apart in terms  
of experience that you can't understand each other at all.  BUT. I find it  
really irritating when people insist on using small talk as a way NOT to get to  
know someone.  I know several people who, even though I've known them for quite  
a while, will talk shop or exchange in-jokes all day, but just try to get a  
serious conversation going and they freeze up solid.  I feel like I could just  
leave a small part of my brain on autopilot to continue the "conversation"  
while the rest of me does something more interesting.  So excuse me for being  
sick of small talk; I've already got more of it stockpiled than I know what to  
do with.  Wining and dining...*shrug*.  I may _want_ to do this at some point  
just to be cute, but anyone who expects me to feel _obligated_ to do this is  
out of luck.

> why is it so difficult for men to understand that not all women are looking
> for "romance" and "commitment" and true love and hearts and flowers and
> all that bullshit? why do they assume we have all these expectations and
> foist them upon us? why don't they believe us when we say they're wrong?
> why can't they treat us as a human being first and a woman second?

Whoa, careful where you point those generalizations.  "They" sound like they're  
living on television; I don't know who you're dealing with, but I can't say I  
actually know anyone who actually acts like this.  Not to say they aren't out  
there, but they're hardly universal.  As for "human being first and woman  
second" - I just had this discussion with a close friend over the holidays.   
After staying up for half the night in a fit of relationship angst, we finally  
came to the conclusion that it would be wonderful if you could treat all of  
your friends the same way, regardless of sex, but it was damn near impossible  
to do so.  Human being first - fine.  Treating a friend you want to get  
involved with but _can't_, the same way you treat a friend you don't have that  
kind of interest in - you can come close, but it takes more objectivity than I  
can muster to pull it off. 

> why is it that when a woman pursues a friendship, a relationship, she's
> seen as being obsessed, as being pushy, as foisting herself upon some
> poor man? why is it that when a man does the same thing, he's being
> friendly and outgoing and sociable? why is it that when a woman is
> friendly and outgoing and sociable, some man feels she's "leading
> him on"?

Gotta love those traditional sex roles, eh?  I do.  It makes life SO much  
easier when you're always expected to take the initive.  I've been told by  
several people that the only way I'm ever going to find anyone is to play this  
game by the rules society has given me.  I've gotta be the pushy one; if I  
don't chase everyone I find even slightly attractive, I'm a fool.  Well, the  
fact that I'm still lonely speaks pretty loudly, but I think this is a load o'  
shit.  I don't like those rules, so I'm not going to play that way.  My chances  
would almost certainly be better if I did, but then I would end up having to  
deal with someone who wants me to be something I'm not.  Forget it. I'd (*ulp*)  
rather be lonely.

> regardless of whether a man with long hair appeals to me, a man with
> intelligence and wit and a twisted bent world view, regardless of whether
> he has that twinkle in his eye and that sparkle in his soul....
> if he can't get past the games and the rules that society dumps on us,
> those travesties that make it so difficult for men and women to speak
> to each other, to hear each other, to understand each other,
> what difference does it make?

So, I guess you need a certain amount of social grace and the ability to start  
and feed a conversation.  Beyond that, why hold onto the games and rules at  
all?  Wouldn't it be nice just to ditch the bullshit for a change?  Everytime I  
play the game and make the mistake of thinking about what I'm doing, I end up  
making myself sick.  If I refuse to play, I end up sitting on my ass, waiting  
for some other weirdo who doesn't want to play by the rules to find _me_ and  
start a conversation.  What are the chances of two people who don't want to  
play by the rules actually getting together?  I don't know, but I'm keeping my  
own score:  0 hits, 0 runs, 1 error.

> (shit, now i'm REALLY depressed)

I'm trying hard not to think about it.

--
GJP