From: byers@cl2.cl.uh.edu (Unbeliever)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Bowls of Alpha-Bits, and the Great Swiss Cheese
Date: 21 Dec 1992 08:53 CST
Organization: The Land
Distribution: world
Reply-To: byers@cl.uh.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhcl2.cl.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  

The Unbeliever hangs his head in shame; he is guilty of reviving a dying topic
that had already been beaten to death several times.  But... what the hell. 
It's one of his favorite subjects of discussion!

Unbe catches a fragment of a conversation the seems to have stemmed directly
from his words...

>..."very few people will base their actions on the advice of a
>bowl of Alpha-Bits, however learned a cereal that may be.  :-)"

..and promptly falls off his stool, laughing harder than he has in quite
awhile.  After recovering from his laughing fit, he resolves to start listening
more carefully.



Unbe turnes to face Michael Schiffer as he says:

>	"I'm inclined to doubt it.  If animal species were directly
>created, the universe seems to have been designed to be misleading.
>Which would be a reasonable hypothesis if the scientific creationists
>were Gnostics, but just doesn't work with their predominantly
>Christian beliefs.  They might be able to make a consistent hypothesis
>by presuming some sort of diabolic deception,

Unbe cuts in, saying, "That is EXACTLY what I've heard some of these
Fundamentalist Christians claim: that God intentionally planted misleading
fossil evidence in the Earth's crust, to weed out those who place more trust in
their own minds than in the Word of God.  I'm sorry, but if God is trying to
mislead us, well, then, gosh, we might as well give up now and go completely
insane.   Hear me, God?  You win!  You're GOD; I certainly can't compete. 
Guess you got us beat!  No loss of face there, losing a war of wits with a
being who created your mind without working up a sweat.  Needless to say, I
prefer to believe in a God who, having given us intelligence, wants us to USE
it rather than disregard it."

"I'm sorry for interrupting.  Please continue!  :)"



>but in that case they
>can't be _scientific_ creationists, since the scientific data are
>suspect.  Whereas all the scientific creation literature I've read (I
>had a friend who was a creationist back in high school, so I got the
>chance to look at some of it) is just bad science-- deliberate
>misconstructions of evidence, ignorance of recent data, and very often
>a fallacy of the excluded middle plus other elementary logical flaws:
>i.e. concluding that since current evolutionary theories fail to explain x, no
>evolutionary theory can be correct and that therefore some version of
>Biblical creationism must be correct.  Which strikes me as much like
>saying that since relativity and quantum theory have some problems
>being reconciled, the only possibility is Aristotelian physics.

Unbeliever is beaming as he listens to this.  "Poetry, sheer poetry.", he
remarks.  "Michael S. Schiffer, yours is a truly remarkable mind.  I completely
agree with everything you say."

Unbeliever grins even wider, as he realizes just how that remark came out.  But
he doesn't let it stop him from continuing his oration.

"Valid logic is one of the greatest triumphs of the human mind.  And invalid
logic is one of the greatest disasters.  NOBODY does as much harm as he who
presents nonsense as if it were valid logic.  In your example above, the
Creationist is reasoning:"

"1) ASSUMPTION: Either the current model of Evolution is completely true,
                or it is completely false."

"2) ASSUMPTION: If Evolution is false, Creationism must be true."

"3) FACT: Evolution currently does not explain certain observations."

"4) THEREFORE: Evolution is completely false."

"5) THEREFORE: Creationism must be true."


"Now the REASONING looks good.  Given those assumptions, the conclusion is
indeed proven.  But LOOK AT THOSE ASSUMPTIONS!  Assumption 1 says that
scientists must have the complete answer now.  No room for learning anything
new about evolution later; either evolution explains everything now or it is
completely wrong.  Assumption 2 says that there are only two possible origins
of the world: Evolution, and Creationism, where Creationism is defined as the
Christian God creating the world precisely as his 'diary' (the Bible), states. 
By that assumption, they very conveniently do away with every other religion,
as well as any other scientific theory of the world's origin.  Before the
logical argument ever begins, they make assumptions that insure that they will
'win'.  Naturally, these assumptions are NEVER stated aloud.  They are
'assumed', and the Creationist simply begins the argument with statement 3
above.  Very convenient.  Lets turn the tables:"

"1) ASSUMPTION: Either the current model of Creationism is completely true,
                or it is completely false."

"2) ASSUMPTION: If Creationism is false, Evolution must be true."

"3) FACT: Creationism currently does not explain certain observations
          (namely, the preponderence of evidence for evolution)."

"4) THEREFORE: Creationism is completely false."

"5) THEREFORE: Evolution must be true."

"You know, Creationists get VERY upset when you do this sort of thing to them.
They get all red and puffy, and start making incoherent noises.  It's really
quite entertaining..."



>...But, granting the premise that
>all religions (and nonreligious beliefs in a supernatural) are wholly
>false, it is correct to view them as equivalent to searching through
>randomness for meaning.  I don't question the logic, any more than I
>questioned the Unbeliever's right to wish for religion to cease to be.
>But I just wanted to clarify that all of his statements had that
>implicit premise.

The Unbeliever's brow furrows as he ponders Michael's most recent words.

"I don't believe I've made the assumption that all religions and supernatural
beliefs are wholly false.  My assumption is that no deity or supernatural force
has exerted any influence on us since the advent of the Big Bang.  Anything
that occurs in our perceptible universe, is explainable through science.  If
the Great Swiss Cheese created the universe so that rodents on a small
blue-green planet may nibble on cheese and contemplate their tails, fine.  But
SINCE the Big Bang, things have proceeded in a fashion that can be explained
WITHOUT resorting to 'The Swiss Cheese Did It'.  Deities and Supernatural
forces are not required to explain events since the Big Bang; this doesn't
necessarily mean they don't exist.  If course, this doesn't mean they DO exist
either.  Isn't one of Christianity's main things that God will not prove he
exists, cause then we won't need Faith?  Well, there you go.  Believe in God,
or the Great Swiss Cheese, whatever, but don't try to use these religious
beliefs to explain the day-to-day workings of the universe.  They won't wash."

"Oh, and to clarify one other point: I don't necessarily wish for religion to
cease to be.  What I >DO< wish is for the various INTOLERANT religions to get a
clue.  The one thing I personally find hard to accept is the concept of a
God/Deity/Holy Cheese who acknowledges the followers of only one religion, and
the rest are just plain outa luck."



Unbe perks up when Speaker to Minerals says:

>...Since the invention of
>science, there's been quite a bit of stuff that was formerly in the domain of
>religion that's moved to the domain of science (e.g., planetary motions,
>evolution [though the creationists are doing their best to keep this in the
>realm of religion]).  I can't think of anything that was ever in the domain of
>science that religion has reappropriated.

"If anything gives me hope for the future of humanity, that's it."



The Unbeliever drops a dollar on the table, and takes the large, frosty eggnog
that Mike had already set out for him.

"To the human race, may we get over this petty my-religion-is-better-than-yours
nonsense and get down to some serious peace, love, and granola.  Would that I
thought it could happen in my lifetime..."

Unbe gulps his eggnog, hurls the glass into the fireplace, and heads back for
his stool.

"Oh, by the way.  For the next two weeks, you may notice me moving and talking
in extreme slow-motion.  Can't be helped; I'll only be here by way of a 1200
baud link.  White Gold does have its limitations...  So everyone, talk to me
REAL SLOW, OK?  Thanks..."


                                             Be True...
                                        -=*> Unbeliever <*=-

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Quote of the Day:
           Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.