From: knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.vietnamese
Subject: Re: History lesson/Call For A Dialogue
Date: 29 Dec 92 20:01:31 GMT
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa

In article <Bzz9rF.1oJ@Saigon.COM> ttran@cv3000.Prime.COM (T. Tran) writes:

As a response to Tin Le's posting on "History lesson", Kim Nguyen made
some comments on "CALL FOR A DIALOGUE", which I believe, missed the points
altogether.

I'll reprint the relevant section as is, with my notes prefaced with "**".

>From <992Dec26.034511.21141@emr1.emr.ca>:

[Deleted]

An article, called *Call for dialog* on SCV, displays many flaws about
Vietnam History, mainly in the period 1925-1945. All is almost based on
HKK's book and convince Vietnamese abroad that

** It's not "all" based on HKK's book. If you've followed the exchanges,
** references have been made to many others regarding the Communist
** movement in VN (Jeffery Race's War Comes To LongAn, Frank Snepp"s
** Decent Interval, A. Woodhouse's Community and Revolution in Modern
** VN, etc.)
**
** HKK's study was highlighted not only because it's been recognized as an
** authoritative scholarly work on VNese communism, but also because it's
** a short, very readable book. For those of us  who grew up in SVN, who
** had been bombarded all our life with 50 years of the most modern psywar
** in recent history, it would serve as a good introduction for a different
** perspective. There is no point to any dialogue if we only want to
** consult books that support our own view !

-Independence is what Vietnam communists are for. But if they are
really advocates for the independence of their beloved country, why
did they not respect the independence of Laos and Cambodia ?

** I'm most surprised by this kind of logic, the mixing and matching of
** unrelated issues. Does Kim Nguyen agree that the communists do fight
** for the independence of their country, but that they do not respect
** the independence of others, or that because they do not respect the
** independence of other countries, THEREFORE, they do not fight for the
** independence of their country ? If it's the latter, then I'm totally
** confused.
** All colonial superpowers of the 20th century certainly yielded to no one
** in protecting their own sovereinty, but certainly no one in their right
** mind would argue they achieved the colonial superpower status BECAUSE
** they supported other countries' independence.
**
** As for the Cambodian question, I've dealt with it at length in many
** postings (repplies to BUI, KVT2, KVT3).
---
Kim Nguyen :

You are right to be confused if you ignore about the subversive strategy
of Ho-Chi-Minh.

A brief paragraph from *The Pentagon Papers*, vol.1, p.52 describes Ho's
eagerness towards Indochina as follows :

*Ho, in fact, always considered his leadership to extend to Indochina (Laos,
Cambodia and Vietnam) as a whole, and his party was originally INDOCHINESE
COMMUNIST PARTY.*

That is his dream about a future Indochina where VIETNAM SUZERAINTY
spreads.

Let see what was going on.

ROLE OF NVN IN THE LAOTIAN WAR (1953-1973) : invasion and subversion

-In 1949, Laos became an independent soveriegn state within the French 
Union.

-In 4/1953, the Vietminh, aided by Pathet Lao (its hidden name is the 
Communist People's Party of Laos), invaded Laos and raised the curtain
on a war which lasted for the next 20 years.

-In 1/1968, NVA captured the Laotian Government enclave at Nam Bac and 
the military post at Na Khang. Government troop retaliated by taking
Xiengkhoang, but in June the NVA recaptured most of it in 2/1970,and in 
October retook Muong Suoi. In December, NVA made an assault on the 
Bolovens Plateau.

-Until 2/1972, NVA and Pathet Lao controlled most of the strategic areas of
Laos.

-12/1975, Souphanouvong was made President of the Lao People's Democratic
Republic.

In the same period, more and more Vietnamese moved into the 
sparsely populated regions of northern Laos (a form of colonization the 
Vietnamese have used many times as prelude to actual annexation), while
50,000 soldiers of NVA remained scattered all over this country,...
(The Ravens by Christopher Robbins, p.336).

What is Pathet Lao ? It is a generic term used for the various Lao 
communist movements. First used in 1950 within Laos to describe the forces 
that followed the communist Vietminh. Later gained international currency
at the Geneva Conference of 1954 (although no Pathet Lao representatives 
were present, and a Vietminh general signed the ceasefire with the French 
on their behalf (!). Lao communist movement included : The People's Party 
of Laos (Phak Parason Lao - PPL); The Lao Patriotic Front (Neo Lao Hak 
Sat - NLHS), The Central Committee of Commanded the Patriotic Neutralists 
(!). But by any name, THESE GROUPS WERE LITTLE MORE THAN FRONT ORGANIZATIONS 
MANIPULATED BY HANOI.

This means that Hanoi did train, arm and create puppet Pathet Lao to 
overthrow the government of its neighbour in order to transform it into 
its satellite.

ROLE OF NVN IN THE CAMBODIAN WAR : SUBVERSION AND INVASION

-After deposing pro-communist Norodom Sihanouk. The new government was 
anxious to preserve Cambodia's neutrality during the Vietnam War but, faced
with the loss of bases and supply lines essential to operations in 
Vietnam, NVA began to take over the sparsely populated north and 
north-east provinces and to forment disaffection in the rest of Cambodia.

As result, thousands of Vietnamese living in Cambodia at that time was 
suspected of being a communist or aiding VC agressors, were assassinated 
in the first half of April and their bodies thrown in the Mekong. (Year 
Zero by Francois Ponchaud).

While in *liberated areas*, NVA divided zones in squares and put 
Vienamese residents in Cambodia into all key positions, sweeping up young 
Khmers to be trained in revolutionary warfare. The Vietminh-Khmers cadres 
who had been living scattered about the countryside since1954 
reappeared on the scene.

-1973 : Most of areas east of the Mekong River was under NVA control.

-1975 : Pol Pot took power.

-1978 : 25/12 Vietnam invaded Kampuchia with 120,000 soldiers.

-1979 : in January, VN installed a puppet regime headed by Heng Samrim. In 
order
to preserve its dominance, VN set up a Cambodian  government amenable to its 
wishes and maintained an army of occupation inside Cambodia.

The result of this invasion :

-Until its retreat from Kampuchea in 12/1989, 60,000 young Vietnamese had
died in Cambodia, as many perhaps from malaria as from Khmer Rouge 
bullets. This is not included thousands of wounded soldiers and civilians.
I was there at that time. Communists recruited South Vietnamese for that
invasion in a swift manner. People were in panic and angry. This time they
did not use patriotic propaganda anymore : go or else ! The youth in the south 
was totally in demoralization. WHO ON EARTH COULD SPEAK UP FOR A POOR AND
WEAK POPULACE ?

-The invasion led to the sino-vietnamese conflict. More than 100,000 
Vietnamese were killed.

-With this ambition, the economy was more in severe shape. The fabric of the 
country, traumatic after 30 years of war, became more devastated. The land
was waiting and waiting in vain for a renovation.

-VN, isolated by international countries, went increasingly dependent 
on the former Soviets Union and the Warsaw Pact countries for aid which 
was not free. Who was the net beneficiary for the siding with Soviets ? It
was Soviets !

How to pay that debt ? Again, ordinary Vietnamese was exploited to labor 
everywhere. At the end of two- or three-years contract, they return home 
with no more than $ 100 in their pockets !

-Now VN and its populace have to work harder and harder not to live better
(lots of goods must be exported to get hard currency) but to pay huge debts 
including interest. 

QUESTIONS : 

-Did Ho only fight for the independence for the sake of the ideal of 
independence, or for the duty of a Comintern whom Georgi Dmitrov (the 
famous Bulgarian revolutionary) have named as organizer of the 
Comintern's Southeast Asia Bureau ?

-Look at the way of *annexation of Laos* and let its soldiers and its citizens
on its neighbours's land even after the war. Was that the way NVA to 
support the independence of Laos and Cambodia or just to create secure 
zones to its west flank ? Did NVA mind about lives of the populace
who live in Cambodia or just mind for taking power ?

-This is an old rhetoric. Why let thousands of young Vietnamese vanish in
a liberation for Laos and Cambodia? Was that because of an ambition of a
communist leader and his cohorts ? DID HO AND THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF 
VIETNAM HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUSH ORDINARY VIETNAMESE INTO DEATH INSTEAD OF
LETTING THEM BE OUT OF THE PROPAGANDA HOOK AFTER BEING TOO TIRED OF A LONG 
WAR ?

CONSTRUCTIVE IDEA TO VIETNAMESE BUREAUCRATS AT HOME : If you are in envy of
the prosperity of East Asian nations like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and 
Singapore in the first rank, and Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia in the 
second rank, let not stick with China but look towards totally to free 
countries for national development. Make a fast political reform to boost 
free market economy because communism is the origin of an inappropriate 
economy.
Did you know that ? HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR YOU TO WAKE UP ?

---
If  they love independence which they did exchange by innocent Vietnamese
corpses, why did they not use the home-grown VIETNAMESEISM to let
Vietnamese enjoy to live in a independent and happy land ? Why do they
still use Leninism to rule Vietnam ?

** I'd support Kim Nguyen's right to voice his debunking of communism if
** it's his preference. There are certainly enough data to build a coherent
** alternative to the communist ideology.
** What I find distressing in this paragragh is that it provides neither.
** What does Kim Nguyen mean by "home-grown VIETNAMESEISM" ? Does he mean
** Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Catholicism, or some sort of mixture ?
** Or something else ? Please help. Let's at least make clear what we want
** to say !
---

Kim Nguyen :

-You know what style of communism in Vietnam ? : Marxism-Leninism, 
REINFORCED BY THE TRADITIONAL TENETS OF CONFUCIANISM, had placed Vietnam 
in a straitjacket.

-Home-grown Vietnameseism is any thing originated and fit with traditional
way of life and thinking. It is a symbolic word to make a contrast with an
imported doctrine which was strange and imposed with cruel force on 
Vietnamese populace.

---
** There are enough books in the West that have come out during the last
** 20 years that document how well the VNese coummunists were able to
** marriage the traditional forte of VNese patriotism with the Communist
** ideology in order to achieve what no other small nation has been able
** to achieve: defeated the most modern superpowers of the world with
** the most primitive means.
---
Kim Nguyen :

-Why do you often take foreign books as a norm to get conclusions ? Many
western books got mistakes related to Vietnam history (one netter did 
mention mistakes in Vietnam, a history by Karnow). Their view is from an 
outsider.

Now I ask a Vietnamese soul :

-You said you once lived in Vietnam. What do you think about a forced 
marriage FULL OF LIES AND PROPAGANDAS ? I did post an article on SCV about
that bloody and successful fusion of Leninism into Vietnam society. Every 
body knows that communism is an IMPOSED AND LYING system which never created 
a fusion into any society without a bloodshed.

-IT'S NO DOUBT THAT HO AND HIS SUCCESSORS DID ORGANIZE, WIELD AND EXPLOIT 
THEIR LARGEST MANPOWER RESOURCE : VIETNAM'S PEASANTRY. Do you agree with
my statement ? Do you believe they lie to the peasantry to get their 
support and exploit them through horrific land reform and 
collectivization later (a style of foreign doctrine) ?

-Here and there in your reply on SCV, you said it is true communists did
elimination to demolish their opponents. If an opponent is a peasant, what 
do you think ? If many of them are forced to obey and controlled by groups 
of trained and loyal cadres ? Are innocent peasantry concerned truly by Hanoi ?

One story about the politeness towards ordinary people :

I lived on Tran-Binh-Trong street (Saigon) in late 1975. Every bloc has at 
least one confiscated house where they set up a post of police. Every month
they often gather residents *to ask about how to run the bloc*. I remember
in one session, a cadre asks politely, *dear papa, mama,...do you have any
idea about the new policy and way to make our quarter better. Please, don't
hesitate at all. The country needs your advice*. An old man, I know not very
well, enthusiastically stands up to show some shortcomings in this in that,
bla bla bla. The cadre applauses and thanks for that constructive advices.

Until next sessions, I never see that old man again. His relatives just 
never reply to any body about his whereabouts. Until that day, I really 
know what the reality under beautiful words. How can a foreigner imagine
a common fear like that under a mass propaganda ? 

-One more question : dare they release their controlling the populace by 
force ? THE KNOT OF ALL MYTH ABOUT THAT MARRIAGE CAME FROM THAT DARING. 

-About *... with the most primitive means * : when do you know to exaggerate
this ?

---
** If we really want to create an alternative to communism, let's find
** what its true strength and weakness are. It does not really provide
** any insight if we keep relying on some sort of vague anti-communist
** catch-alls. That might serve us alright in the pre-1975 period. With
** all the vast amount of information now available, it just doesn't
** do anymore.
---

Kim Nguyen :

Vague anti-communist catch-alls ? What are vague ?

One simple question I would like you to answer : HAVE YOU EVER SPENT A DAY
IN VIETNAM AFTER 1975  AND WHERE ?

---
** As for the question of Lenism, it's a matter of realistic perspective.
** Sure, if we believe in mirarcles, then we can always hope for one. If
** we follow VNese communism as a mass movement, that started in 1930s,
** survived several near-death wipe-outs by the French, got reconstituted,
** succeeded in defeating a colonial superpower that had rulled VN for
** 100 years, then defeated another superpower that no country in the world
** has ever been able to challenge, surely it'd be an easy task to convince
** it that it should drop the very thing that made it what it was and is !
** Especially now when it has to face the potential invasion from the
** North, and a complete embargo by the West since 1975 ?
---

Kim Nguyen : 

Potential invasion and embargo since 1975 ? Read previous paragraph to see
why.

---
** Again, I take no issue with Kim's desire, and perhaps the majority of
** us oversea VNese, in seeing the abandonment of some of the worst inhumane
** practices of communism. But it does not serve any purpose in posing
** question that seems to ignore the reality of history. It might be a goal
** that Kim Nguyen might work for, but not something that simply drops out
** from the sky !
---

Kim Nguyen :

My feeling about the independence taken by Communist is that : it is a 
mixed feeling like I got it from the story of Dien-Bien-Phu. At the
same time I feel pleased that Vietnamese can defeated French with a big
scale, but at the same time I feel scared at that group of men who 
eliminated his own people with a bigger scale. It means that I AM NOT
PROUD AT ALL BECAUSE THIS GROUP IS STILL FAR AWAY FROM A NORM OF RESPECT
AND TRUE LOVE FROM ITS POPULACE.

---
-This article suggests a deep-rooted Leninism and its natural fusion into
Vietnam. Is it ridiculous ? A champion of independence can say that ?
That part of history (1925-1945) has no deep-rooted origine from Leninism but 
IT
 WAS FORCED TO MINGLE WITH AN IMPORTED DOCTRINE. No one talks about HOISM, but 
M
arxism or Maoism.

** Again, Kim Nguyen's argument really confuses me. If Kim bothers to read
** HKK's study, or others in the same subject (D. Marr, A. Woodhouse, Paul
** Mus, etc.), he would not dismiss it so easily (D. Marr's "VN Tradition
** On Trial, 1925-1945" has a particular extensive bibliography).
---
Kim Nguyen :

I suppose you did live in Vietnam probably more years than any authors above. 
Answer questions below :

-Are our ancestors atheists ?

-Did traditional custom let Truong-Chinh kill his parents (land lords) in
Hanh-khu 1954 to commence for land reform under charge ?

-Why copying Land reform from Mao tse-Tung and killing so much people like
that ? A home-grown leader should find peaceful way to help the peasantry
but not to eliminate wildly others like that. This atrocity is not a Vietnamese
character.

-Why breaking promise without fight in the Tet...

I ask you : Do you believe that Leninism really mingles into our society 
smoothly 
and naturally ?

---
** As for HOISM, could Kim give me a name for VNese Buddhism, VNese Taoism,
** VNese Confucianism, or VNese Catholicism ? Is it therefore all these
** are purely foreign grafts to some sort of VNeseism to be defined ?
** There is certainly a case to make for the failure of the Communists to
** truly appreciate the cultural tradition of VN, but it requires a great
** deal of work to make it intelligible.
** If we cannot even make ourselves intelligible, how can we expect to
** challenge the communists ?
---

Kim Nguyen :

Now you use the first time THE CULTURAL TRADITION, but the 
culture + religion has amalgamated for thousand years to form a unique 
tradition of Vietnam. How long did take for a traditional society of
Vietnam to fuse in Leninism ? Only 18 years. It is so fast if not BY
GUNS, COERCION AND LIE ?

---
The only origin for that period is VIETNAMESE PATRIOTISM. Vietnamese has
shown to the world that they did not need Leninism or Maoism or Stalinism
or Troskyism to kick Chinese and Mongols out of their land ! WITH A
PROTRACTED WAR, THEY WOULD DO THE SAME TO THROW FRENCH OFF THEIR
TERRITORY NO NEED OF USING COMMUNISM.

** Again, this is both faulty logic and fautly history. As I've mentioned
** in my posting:

>> -- When Nguyen Thai Hoc failed in his revolt at Yen Bai ("Kho^ng tha`nh>>
co^ng thi` tha`nh nha^n"), we've seen the last of the nationally-
>>    known resistance organized by the non-communist intellectuals in
>>    Vietnam. In fact, all non-communist movements against France shared
>>    the same fate: crushed completely by the security apparatus of the
>>    French colonial adminstration.
>>
>> -- It was then that HCM and his Indochinese Communist Party became the
>>    only significant force left that could challenge Great France (Dda.i>>
Pha'p), which it did successfully, booting France out of North VN.

---

Kim Nguyen :

If you read my original posting. You would see why HCM and his INDOCHINESE
COMMUNIST PARTY became the only one left. If you read Bui-Diem's book you
wouls see how Vo-Nguyen-Giap's cadres ransack, chase, follow and 
assassinate the non-communist members who did not agree with HCM. This
you stated somewhere. It is ironic that nationalist would be killed not 
only by foreigners but by Vietnamese communist too.

---
** You might believe that "THEY WOULD DO THE SAME", but the historical
** fact is that they didn't, and couldn't. The power, sophistication,
** and technology of a colonial superpower like France was vastly
** different from the traditional occupation of the Chinese troops in
** earlier history. HKK's book and D. Marr's works go into great details
** how the coummunists managed to solve that dilemma: to invoke the
** age-old patritotism that every VNese seemed to be born with, combined
** it with the modern organization techniques, analytical methodology, and
** international alliance to encircle and eventually squeeze the French
** to death.

That period of history has shown a failure of APPLYING BLINDLY a foreign
doctrine to solve a war and then to put that doctrine on every head of
Vietnamese to bear until today.

** For all I know, you may be absolutely right. But we need much better
** understanding both of the nature of VNese communism and what has
** happened during the last 150 years. It serves no good purpose to
** overrate our own resource and severly under-estimate the capability,
** resilience, and prowness of our opponents. After all, it was us, and
** the French, and the Japanese, and the US, and the Chinese that lost
** in VN, not the communists. I'm sure none of these superpowers lacked
** people of the highest ability and intelligence, or the resources to
** back them up.
---

Kim Nguyen :

Without question, the political- and war-management skills that were
learned from directly and indirectly from the former USSR and China,
including the war hardware from these two, made communist Vietnam invincible
in wartime; but we, as Vietnamese people, after spending five decades of
war to get an indepencence and end up with another totalitarian regime.
THIS TIME THE GOVERNING MACHINE IS NOT FRENCH BUT A GROUP OF VIETNAMESE.

---
** If we truly wish to have an impact on the future of VN, let's get REAL.
** Let's not keep repeating most of the materials created ex nihilo by
** the most modern psywar experts for public consumption during the war.
** To paraphrase Santayana, those who fail to learn from the mistake of
** the past are condemned to repeat it.
---

I don't know why you are so sure to stick with some books you call 
authoritave one and look down on others. But I will look for HKK's
book.