HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ac985@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joel Tscherne)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Date: 9 Oct 1992 21:22:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ac985@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joel Tscherne)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) says:

>
>	schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) writes:
>	Retired CIA agent Robert Morrow claimed on "A Current Affair"
>	tonight that he bought the Mannlicher-Carcano rifles used to
>	assassinate JFK.
>
>	He kept one of the rifles because it was slightly defective
>	and displayed it from a large wall safe.
>
>... then he was plenty stupid, wasn't he?  If he *did* buy the rifle
>that killed JFK, then keeping evidence around was a titanically dumb
>idea.

Supposedly, Morrow bought FOUR Mannlicher-Carcano's, for reasons
supposedly unknown to him.  He sent three on (which were then supposedly
used for the assassination) and kept the fourth.

Morrow's first book was "Betrayal", which is described in his new book,
"First Hand Knowledge", as being a partly-fictionalized account of the
JFK assassination.  In the new book, he amplifies the Mafia involvement,
which was barely mentioned in the first book.

I re-read "Betrayal" to refresh my memory before reading the new book.
If I find anything remotely interesting in the new book, I'll post as a
future point...

>
-- 
===============Joel Tscherne:  ac985@cleveland.freenet.edu===============
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: JAMA redux
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:40:15 GMT

grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant) writes:


>I *examined* the wounds with my own eyes.  The fatal wound was 
>frightening - 13 cm across at its widest.  It was very obvious that
>it came from the back and exited the front."

13cm extending from the occipital [back of the head] through
the parietal into the temporal bone [side of the head -- above the ear]

The trouble with that 13cm wound described by Finck and Humes is that
it is missing from the X-Rays! There is no wound in the location they
described.

Instead, the X-Rays show the right *front* of JFK's head missing.

Also, the back of the head photos show no such wound. Again, according
to the autopsy photos, such a wound never existed.

In addition, Humes and Finck placed the entrance wound at the back of
JFK's head, 1 inch to the right of the midline, down near the hairline
at the top of the neck.

The HSCA moved that wound 4 inches upwards near the top of the head.

Why did they do that? Simple. If a bullet fired from the 6th floor of
the TSBD entered where Humes and Finck and Boswell said it did, it
would have exitted from JFK's face! Instead Finck and Boswell claim it
made some miracle right turn and exitted above JFK's right ear.

Fincks above statement claims the bullet entered from the rear and
exitted from the right side of JFK's head on the basis of bevelling
they found on bones found in Dealey Plaza. The trouble is, they didn't
get those bones until after the autopsy was over and JFK's head was
being reconstructed by the morticians.

Why do the X-Rays and autopsy photos *not* show the wounds described
by Finck? Simple, they are fakes, created to make people believe the
bullet entered from the rear and exitteed from the front.

In fact, it was the right rear of JFK's head that was missing.

Clint Hill, the SS agent who jumped in the limo describes such a wound.
So does the medical staff at Parkland, so does the mortuary staff from
Dallas, so does the medical technicians at Bethesda, so does the
mortuary staff at Bethesda, and so do the autopsy physicians.

Yet, such a wound has never shown up in the autopsy photos or the
X-Rays. Where did it go? What are they hiding?

Finck can go on claiming the bullet went from back to front, but the
trouble is that a bullet that hit where he said it did, could not have
come out where he said it did!
From: jdahl@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Jared Dahl)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:22:16 GMT
Organization: IBM Rochester
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

In article <1992Oct8.184111.22545@qualcomm.com>, karn@servo.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn) writes:
|> In article <schuck.718438757@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
|> >There is *no* evidence either bullet ever entered a human being.
|> 
|> No? Then what caused the bullet holes in Kennedy and Connally? Remember
|> that the limo and surrounding area on Elm Street were thoroughly
|> searched for evidence of further bullets.
|> 

Thoroughly searched??  The limo was washed clean and repaired the next
day and the area wasn't until far too long after the shooting.  There
were no SS agents or FBI in Dealy Plaza that day.

|> >Again, the rifle supposedly found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was a
|> >6.5mm rifle. There is no proof it was fired that day. 
|> 
|> Well, finding bullets and bullet fragments in the limo and on
|> Connally's stretcher that were shown to have been fired from Oswald's
|> rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons, plus immediate eyewitness
|> reports that a rifle was fired from the TSBD, etc, etc, seems like
|> pretty good proof to me. Beyond a reasonable doubt, anyway. If Oswald
|> had lived and I were on the jury at his trial, I wouldn't have any
|> problem in voting "guilty" on the basis of this evidence. And I'm
|> normally *very* skeptical of the government and conscious of the
|> rights of a criminal defendant.

Oswald came up negative on the parrafin test!

|> >Plausible? The fact that the rifles transported to Dalls were 7.35mm
|> >does not rule them out as assassination rifles.
|> 
|> It does when the recovered bullets were identified as 6.5mm and were
|> shown to have come from the C2766 rifle (Oswald's) to the exclusion
|> of all other weapons...
|> 
|> Phil

There are ways around that....

Wake up and smell the coffee Phil!


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Jared Dahl             | "My heart is human, my blood is boiling, | 
| Systems Programmer     |  my brain IBM"                           |
| IBM - Rochester, MN    |              -- STYX,  "Mr. Roboto"      |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Opinions expressed are mine, not IBM's.
From: Hirsch#m#_Edward@msgate.corp.apple.com (Ed Hirsch)
Subject: Re: It Was The Driver!
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:44:40 GMT
Organization: Delta Sigma Phi, HN Chapter
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy.jfk

In article <128450001@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja
Sigurdsson) wrote:
> 
> 
> > THE DRIVER DID IT !!!!!!

Actually the driver was involved.  I you examine the Zapruder tapes, along
with syncronized audio, closely.  After the first shot is fired, the limo
driver hits the brakes and turn back to look at JFK.  He turns back around
and releases the brakes after he saw JFK hit in the head.

Also, the limo driver had never been to Dallas and was not familiar with
the area except he knew exactly how to get to Parkland Memorial.

I think he was involved.  Anyone else agree?!?!?

Ed Hirsch
Delta Sigma Phi, HN Chapter
From: aaron@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Date: 12 Oct 92 09:08:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

(NB: [..] minor deletions that should not affect Mr.McGrew's argument)

Charles Mcgrew (mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu) wrote:
:    [..] if a conspiracy using Morrow's rifles [..] framed Oswald, 
: they could not know in advance that no bullets of non-6.5mm 
: would be found
: [..] it would be the height of idiocy to supply the wrong caliber rifle [..]
: [..] if Morrow's 7.35mm rifles were used, then the conspiracy would
: have supplied the right caliber of rifle to pin on Oswald. 
:
: Charles

I remember (and this could be checked with reference to the archive of
this newsgroup) that Morrow's testimony alleged that no particular
calibre was specified when he was instructed to buy the rifles. He
alledges he purchased (if my memory serves me correctly) three of 6.5mm
calibre and one of 7.35mm calibre. One of the 6.5mm guns was supposed to
have been found to be defective and was then replaced with the 7.35mm
calibre weapon. This, Morrow alledges,  is the gun that fired from the
"grassy knoll".

Can anyone confirm this? (I have my own archive but it would be time
consuming to extract this information)

		Aaron Turner	aaron@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: mortal error
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 06:13:50 GMT

dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon) writes:

>In a previous article, schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) says:
>>
>>Have you never heard of backsplash? When a rifle bullet is fired into
>>a liquid filled vessel such as a jug of water or a human brain there
>>is tendency for material to splash backwards out of the hole.

>A tendency? It could happen, depending on the materials involved and
>probably a host of other factors (such as the type of bullet). It
>seems like you're almost in Lattimer/Alvarez territory here though 
>(I hate to say it)

That hurt. :)

Lattimer/Alvarez argued that brain matter ejected out the *exit* wound
would have suffiecient force to send JFK back and to the left.

I am saying that a bullet's entrance could eject material out of the
entrance wound. Thats not the same thing at all. I am certainly not
arguing it would have much force.

Of course, there is also the double head shot theory, with almost
simultaneous impacts from the rear and the grassy knoll.


Alvarez's tests had some serious flaws. He used melons unconnected to
anything [certainly not connected to a 165 lb body], he used high
velocity soft-nosed partially jacketed ammunition that fragments
easily instead of the medium velocity fully jacketed rounds that don't
fragment easily. Finally, he only got a few of the melons to move
backwards toward the shooter who was less than 50 feet away. And the
velocity attained by the melons was not enough to move a 170/175 lb
man backwards.

Supposedly in Oswalds case , Oswald was almost 300 feet away and to
JFK's right. JFK moved backwards and away from Oswald, not towards
him.

Lattimers tests were similarly flawed.

Olivier also did similar tests. Only one out of 10 skulls filled with
gelatin fell off a podium when hit by a 6.5mm FMJ round, and it just
fell off, it didn't move with any velocity.


-- 

All the demands made by the Quebec Nationalists can be summed up in
just one: keep giving us new powers and the money to exercise them, or
we'll leave -- Pierre Elliot Trudeau , 1992

Each new ransom paid to stave off the threat of schism will simply
encourage the master blackmailers to renew the threat and double the
ransom -- Pierre Elliot Trudeau , 1992

schuck@sfu.ca              Vote No on October 26th
From: dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: mortal error
Date: 8 Oct 1992 05:21:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) says:
>
>Have you never heard of backsplash? When a rifle bullet is fired into
>a liquid filled vessel such as a jug of water or a human brain there
>is tendency for material to splash backwards out of the hole.

A tendency? It could happen, depending on the materials involved and
probably a host of other factors (such as the type of bullet). It
seems like you're almost in Lattimer/Alvarez territory here though 
(I hate to say it)
-- 
"In universities, it is forbidden     |  "Personally, my politics are so far
to teach nonsense. But the _history_  |  to the right, I consider Paul Revere
of nonsense -- that's scholarship!"   |  to be a pinko."
               -- Saul Lieberman      |                 -- Tom Grundner
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: rahayden@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Robert Hayden)
Subject: The Oracle answers about JFK
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:31:36 GMT


Well, we've been debating JFK for so long, I figured I would ask the
USENET Oracle about it.  Here is his reply.  (NOTE:  This is for
light-hearted humor only, please take it as such).

>>>>>   If you cut here, you will hurt your terminal   <<<<<


The Usenet Oracle has pondered your question deeply.
Your question was:

> 
> Or great Oracle who's soiled kleenex I am not worthy to dispose of.  Who
> could <ZOT!> me without a second's thought, who understands women....
> 
> Was John F. Kennedy killed by one lone man or a governmental conspiracy?
> 
> 

And in response, thus spake the Oracle:

} > > Or great Oracle who's soiled kleenex I am not worthy to dispose of.  Who
} > > could <ZOT!> me without a second's thought, who understands women....
}                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
} Regrettably, some things are even beyond us all-knowing types, but a
} nice grovel nonetheless.  I see that you have aspirations of Oliver
} Stone, my loyal supplicant.  First, and this may be a bit of a shock,
} there are in fact *many* alternative answers to your little JFK
} conundrum.  The Universe is a strange and mysterious place to your
} little mortal minds, and thus you may find this difficult to accept,
} but there exactly 13,487 different endings to that day in Dallas, only
} two of which you have mentioned in your question.  Now, I won't bore
} you with all of the 13,485 other answers, but instead will summarize a
} few of the more interesting ones:
} 
} *ahem*
} 
} #235:   John F. Kennedy killed by bullet ricocheting off Jackie O's hair
} #861:   John F. Kennedy killed by noodle ricocheting off Jackie O's hair
} #3444:  John F. Kennedy killed by Jackie O's hair
} #9871:  Warren Commision makes up John F. Kennedy, then kills him
} #10031: Lee Harvey Oswald is a dead-flower arranger in Tacoma
} ...
} 
} As you can see, for the myriad of multiverses in existance at any
} given moment, there is a finite (though significantly large) number of
} possible outcomes, each with their own resultant chain of events.  To
} determine exactly *which* fragment of the universe you happen to be
} living in and to retrace back to that one little splintering is, quite
} honestly, more work than I want to bother with right now.  My phone
} bill came today, and I've gotta figure out a way to reprogram AT&T so
} the call to Indiana is free -- can't afford to tie up the line all day
} talking about conspiracies and magic bullets and such.  Sorry.
} 
} You owe the Oracle a romp on a grassy knoll with Marilyn.
} 
} 


Maybe this will answer all of our questions.....


Or maybe not.....

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Robert Hayden                  | Black holes result    | My views do not 
 rahayden@UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  | from God dividing the | reflect the views
 AQ650@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU    | universe by zero      | of my employer.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: FIELD1@NIEHS.bitnet (Jack Field)
Subject: Cuban Missle Crisis, 30th Annv.
Keywords: JFK Cuba Castro
Organization: NIEHS/DIR/SCL
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:24:48 GMT

The following specials on the Cuban Missle Crisis are to be aired this week
beginning tonight 10/16/92:

Reexamination of the Cuban Missle Crisis - A&E's Time Machine - 10/16/92 -
8-10pm

The Missles of October, Revisited - ABC New Special - 10/17/92 - 9-11pm

One Minute to Midnight - NBC News Special - 10/23/92 - 9-11pm

I have recently been reading "First Hand Knowledge" by Robert Morrow who states
that he and David Ferrie had flown into Cuba on the night of the Bay of Pigs
invasion, 4/17/61 in order to gather intelligence information on the
construction of missle sites and record pulses from a plant nearby.  In his
book he describes how he and Eladio del Valle had just finished getting the
info they came for and made it back to the plane where Ferrie was waiting
before a Cuban fighter detected their presence and straffed the area.

Morrow states in his book that Kennedy was informed of the missle sites
construction and actual missles in Cuba as far back as the summer/fall of 1961
but JFK did nothing about it.  It wasn't until October 17, 1962 that the U2
overflights provided photographic evidence of their existance or so the story
goes.

So far I have enjoyed the book considerably for its look into the various Cuban
factions wanting to reclaim Cuba and oust Castro and how each faction differed
and had their own support within the CIA and remainder of the government.

Jack Field
From: mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:31:46 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


	schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) writes:
	Retired CIA agent Robert Morrow claimed on "A Current Affair"
	tonight that he bought the Mannlicher-Carcano rifles used to
	assassinate JFK.

... if you look at the rifle carefully, it looks nothing like the
Oswald rifle (well, it does, sort of -- it has a barrel.)  As others
have noted, its even the wrong caliber.  If you're trying to "patsy"
one assassin, it'd be pretty silly to have different caliber weapons
firing, wouldn't it?


	He kept one of the rifles because it was slightly defective
	and displayed it from a large wall safe.

... then he was plenty stupid, wasn't he?  If he *did* buy the rifle
that killed JFK, then keeping evidence around was a titanically dumb
idea.

        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

... a generally poor movie, with a couple of really good lines!

Charles
From: saltzman@crd.ge.com (Bob Saltzman)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: test posting of new newsreader
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:50:16 GMT
Reply-To: saltzman@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development, Schenectady, NY

please ignore and discard - sorry to clutter the newsgroup.
==============================================================================
Robert B. Saltzman (Bob)            Internet: saltzman@crd.ge.com
Information System Operation        Snailnet: Bldg KW, Room C120, PO Box 8
General Electric Company            AT&Tnet:  518-387-5828(B), 387-6560(FAX),
Corporate Research and Development            518-370-2222(H)
Schenectady, New York 12301 USA     ICBMnet:  42 50 04 N, 73 54 14 W, Alt 246
AEMT-4 Paramedic/Firefighter        HAMnet:   WB2ARK (advanced)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:55:22 GMT


mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) writes:


>	Supposedly, Morrow bought FOUR Mannlicher-Carcano's, for
>	reasons supposedly unknown to him.  He sent three on (which
>	were then supposedly used for the assassination) and kept the
>	fourth.

>... as others have noted, Morrow's rifle is not even the right
>caliber.  Various overheated Morrow apologists have "explained" that
>there is doubt that the "Oswald rifle" was the actual "right caliber".

>   The difficulty is that if a conspiracy using Morrow's rifles killed
>Kennedy, and then framed Oswald, they could not know in advance that
>no bullets of non-6.5mm (the Oswald rifle) would be found, 
               ^^^^^^^^^

The problem for the conspirators was not the calibre. It was planting
the right evidence. Even if the *other* rifles firing at JFK that day
had the same calibre as Oswalds rifle [which has never been proven to
have even been fired that day] the bullets would still have to be
recovered and 6.5mm ones from Oswalds rifle had to be planted. 

They had to plant a bullet or bullet that matched ballistically
to Oswlads rifle, and that at CE399, the 'magic' bullet.

And, as I've said before, the 'magic' bullet, and the large fragments
found in the limo had *no* blood on them, and the large fragments had
no brain tissue on them, even though they supposedly went through
JFK's head.

It can only be concluded that those bullets and fragments *never* went
through a human being, and more than likely CE399 was only fired into
a water tank.

>so if
>Morrow's rifle(s) were used, then it would be the height of idiocy to
>supply the wrong caliber rifle to pin on Oswald.  

I think it was more idiotic to plant bullets like CE399 on a hospital
stretcher [not even Connally's stretcher] , without blood on it, and
in pristine condition. However, the Warren Commission bought it hook
line and sinker. At least the limo fragments were properly damaged,
but they were clean of blood and brain tissue so it should have been
the 'height of idiocy' to think they were from JFK's head.

-- 

All the demands made by the Quebec Nationalists can be summed up in
just one: keep giving us new powers and the money to exercise them, or
we'll leave -- Pierre Elliot Trudeau , 1992

Each new ransom paid to stave off the threat of schism will simply
encourage the master blackmailers to renew the threat and double the
ransom -- Pierre Elliot Trudeau , 1992

schuck@sfu.ca              Vote No on October 26th
  


Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: karn@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Subject: Re: mortal error --> Accoustics?
Reply-To: karn@chicago.qualcomm.com
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 03:00:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.161752.20536@fys.ruu.nl>, sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries) writes:
|> (25/264)*(25/264) = 0.009. To me it seems highly unlikely that these 
|> two sounds will be perceived as a "double shot". Conclusion: most
|> clearly seperated "double shots" will indeed be *two* shots.

Or perhaps the sounds on the dictabelt were not shots at all, as the
NRC panel concluded once they determined that the recording was
made a full minute after the assassination...

Phil
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: seann@igor.tamri.com (Sean Nelson)
Subject: Re: It Was The Driver!
Organization: Toshiba America MRI Inc, S. San Francisco, CA.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 17:11:11 GMT

Somehow I think we can let the driver off. After all, his participation was
not necessary in any sense. The route had been changed to ensure that the
target would be proceeding slowly enough to be easily hit. The whole
scheme works fine without the driver having to be involved.

I tend to look at what HAD to happen for the plot to succeed in order to
determine which of the many possible participants were most likely to be
included in it.

The behaviour of the driver can be understood in relatively ordinary terms.

It is not unreasonable to believe that the driver was'nt expecting to have
his passengers blown to bits on this particular day. As this assumption was
suddenly revised, one would expect a hesitation/startle response to unexpected
gunfire and the sight of an obviously messed up bunch of passengers.

It's really a shame that the story the WC presented has not proved easier
to believe over the years.....


-- 

| Sean Nelson,  		| 
| Toshiba America MRI		| Raise the wages of sin !
| seann@igor.tamri.com 		| 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk