From: carruth@mksol.dseg.ti.com (matthew carruth)
Subject: Re: Sex and the Single Esperantist
Organization: internet
Distribution: inet
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:24:01 GMT

In article <xeno.714073079@pv34ad.vincent.iastate.edu>, xeno@iastate.edu (Gary L Snethen) writes:
|> In <920816221418_72627.2647_DHJ52-1@CompuServe.COM> 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW) writes:
|> 
|> >I don't think this is actually something to worry about. Children learn 
|> >words as words, not as combinations. "Fe-MALE" and "wo-MAN" 
|> >don't seem to have any significant effect on the self-esteem of small 
|> >English-speaking girls; that comes later, and from other factors, which 
|> >you mention. The question of men doing better than women in math 
|> >(which I mention in another posting) is an example; I've also known 
|> >women (e.g., my three daughters) who have grown up in environments 
|> >where their parents, consciously or unconsciously, protected them from 
|> >this sort of female-bashing ("Women just can't do that sort of thing, dear. 
|> >Go play with your Barbie dolls."), and they do as well as at least the 
|> >average male at math, "female" and "woman" notwithstanding.
|> 
|> >(Incidentally, in Esperanto the first forms that a child learns are not 
|> >"patro" and "patrino", but "pacxjo" and "panjo" -- "daddy" and 
|> >"mommy" -- which _are_ symmetric, in Esperanto as in English. 
|> >These "endearing" suffixes -- which are, incidentally, the only real 
|> >case of "inflection" in Esperanto -- are common at this age, much 
|> >more so than the more formal -IN-.)
|> 
|> 
|> Don,
|> 
|>    I am sure that you are a wonderful father (NO SARCASM HERE), and
|> you have given your daughters wonderful influence...  I have known many very
|> intelligent women, who have excelled greatly in math, physics, engineering
|> and other traditionally male-dominated fields.  Each one of them felt that
|> society viewed her as secondary to men, and each had trouble believing in
|> herself when put into competition with men.  Those who take 'woman studies'
|> or similar courses learn that the psychological impact of gender unsymmetric
|> languages on children is great.  The children do indeed learn the word
|> 'patrino' to mean 'mother' and not 'female father,' but as they pass through
|> the analytical stages of development, they begin to see the difference and
|> to question within themselves why it exists...  I, for one, distinctly
|> remember doing this as a child with the words 'woman' and 'man', 'male' and
|> 'female', etc.  (in the same breath, I might mention that the 'what are
|> little boys made of?' rhyme caused me great distress)
|> 
|>    If a woman complains that something bothers her (such as unsymmetric
|> grammar), then it DOES.  Her single exception breaks the rule that it
|> does no harm... 


This is quite a standard to hold anything against.  If one person is bothered by
Americans eating meat, or the French drinking wine.....


 There are people who are affected, both men and women.
|> Whether or not the language will change to accomodate those affected is
|> a battle between the flexibility of the language and of the people.


Isn't battle a rather strong word for a gradual evolution?  Everyone
agrees E-o and other languages are changing.  Most would say that 
they are becoming more "gender neutral".  Do we really want a language stripped
of all color and romance produced over 1000's of years (like Newspeak, for
instance)?  Why fool around with E-o, spoken by only a few million? Languages
like Spanish have such "oppressive, sexist" contructs  as the rule, rather
than the exception, and they are spoken by almost everybody.

|> Esperanto is (in my opinion) a great language, and one designed with
|> flexibility, so I would choose to use it to its greatest good as I would
|> see it...  If my methods don't stand the test of time, they aren't meant
|> to be.
|> 
|> >>La opinio de unu viro.     The opinion of one human being.
|> 
|> >Viro = man (male), homo = human being. The use of "man" 
|> >for "human being" is a genuinely sexist Anglicism that doesn't 
|> >carry over into Esperanto.
|> 
|> Don,
|> 
|>    This was intentional.
|> 
|>    Traditionally, viro = man, virino = woman.  In the letter, I supported
|> the use of the suffix 'icx' for the masculine.  Thus, under this system:
|> viricxo = man and virino = woman, in order to provide absolute symmetry.

"Absolte symmetry", a concept to which all others must be subordnated, I guess....

|> The neutral term, viro, (in a truly symmetric system) must come to mean that
|> from which men and women are derived... parallel to 'human' yet perhaps
|> different.  I would take it to mean that part of men and women shared by
|> both (mathematically: homo = the union of men and women.  viro = the
|> intersection of men and women, ie. everything men and women share in common.)

Why not choose your speech in E-o, or any language, to reflect such issues?  Is 
it necessary to change the language?  Are others, then, sexist, who use such
traditional words, even though they may not have any sexist intentions?

If "homo" means "human being" then couldn't one concerned with such things say
"virhomo" for "man" and "homoino" for "woman"?  Why change things?  

Does the "intentional" mentioned above mean that E-o was a planned, sexist attack
on women?

|> 
|> Thus:
|> 
|> La opinio de unu viro...  The opinion of one human being...
|> 
|> (I was concerned that this would be too subtle for some to catch... please
|>  pardon me if I've insulted anyone.)
|> 
|> 
|> >=============================================
|> >Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
|> >tel. (1 510) 222 0187
|> >CompuServe [72627,2647]
|> >Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com
|> 
|> >"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
|> >                                                          Confucius
|> >=============================================
|> 
|> 
|> By the way, Don...  I appreciate your measured, intelligent postings...
|> 
|> ---Xeno (Gary) Snethen
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 

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