From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Sexist African Males
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:54:36 GMT
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics

In article <1992Apr12.230853.25481@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.203458.18212@midway.uchicago.edu> gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>Before I address the original issue, 
>>I would ask in the future that you not refer to me and David Duke and 
>>/or the KKK, unless you are saying the relationship is adversarial.  
>>
>Granted and I apologize if you took my statement as a comparison of you to
>David Dukes.
No, it's not a question of comparison.  I am an record as an activisist
opposed to them, and they are on record as opposed to me.  The relationship
is advesarial,  not neutrality, or anything else.

>>If you want to help fight against this white-supremicist anti-semitic
>>propaganda, I'll tell you where it is, e-mail you information, tell you
>>who else has information, and snail mail you other stuff.  
>>
>Good lets have the information. I'd be glad to help.

There's a lot: who they are, what they post, where they post, where the
info comes from, who they are connected to, etc.  
Do you want e-mail, or do you want it posted?   Do you want a summary
of the info, or all of it?

>>I'll assume that you will accept Encyclopedia Britannica as an unbiased
>>authoritative source.  (It is the only Encyclopedia that the US court
>>system considers for 'indisputible evidence' regarding matters of fact.)

>>You can look the stuff up yourself, in the index under slavery and
>>under Africa.

>Since the Encyclopedia Britannica isn't really a good source, I have a 
>problem accepting its idea of history. I haven't read it so I can't say
>for sure. If you look up information on how American was formed, I don't
>think that it will say that the europeans slaughtered the Native Americans
>in order to establish this country. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

I'm sorry, but this does not fly.  If you haven't read it, you can't at
the same time tell me that you don't accept its idea of history.  The 
Encyclopedia Britannica is recognized on basically every subject as an 
authoritative neutral source, and if you asked me to prove something in 
court, a statement from the Encyclopedia counts as 'fact.'  Furthermore, 
the Encyclopedia represents the condenced view of what the academic
community accepts on most issues.  It's the most detailed of all the
encycoplopedias.   I also gave you the page numbers so
you could read it for youself, to check if I was quoting correctly.
My citations from their stand unchallenged.  (P.S) There is a 100 page 
section on American Indians, including history, policies of Europeans, and 
policies of the United States.   I wasn't aware that people actually
believed that Encyclopedia Britannica is not PC.

>>>Every African was at risk of being
>>>enslaved by the european slave traders ! 
>>No, the Europeans only operated in many parts of Africa, and not all of Africa,
>>and certainly not all at the same time.  Africa is a very large content,
>>and the European control did not extend throughout it when the slave trade
>>was active.  And the Egyptians and Arab Africans were not at risk.  
>>But some black Africans were at risk of the Arab slave traders.  

>The Africans that I am speaking of are the black Africans. I should have
>made that clear.

But, again it's not clear that every Black African was at risk, as
European slave traders were not everywhere in Africa, and not every
was at risk from Europeans, as in some places the slave trade was
controlled by Arabs.

>Yes not all whites are responsible for this attrosity but I am complaining about
>those that simply say hey.. I didn't enslave anyone so don't blame me. I have
>to ask those that respond in that manner...What are YOU doing to change things?

Do you really want me to answer this question, or is this rhetorical?
I'm prepared to answer, but I really don't like to 'toot my own horn'
in public.

>Even though AfAms aren't getting lynched and beaten by whites in the same 
>proportions as they were 20 years ago, things haven't changed much if any in
>the way of attitudes and the way AfAms are viewed by whites. 

This is just false. Attitudes have changed a lot.  For a simple exercise
count the # of AfAms on TV compared to 20 years ago, or look at whose
endorsing products.  20 years ago, many companies would not have black
people endorsing products (because they didn't want their product associated
with blacks), and now, many famous African Americans are in demand for
endorsements.  Also look at those on news and other shows.  This is
only one example.  There was a survey of how people perceive different
ethnic/racial groups in the New York times, and they compared the
results to how blacks were perceived over 10 years ago.  The image
has increased, and more whites are willing to vote for black candidates.

>We are still not
>viewed as being intellegent nor is our culture nor history appreciated or
>even known by most whites eventhough we are American just like them.
This is true of some people, and false of others.  

>>Are you saying that *I* don't want to admit that I, or my people 
>>are responsible?  Do you know if I'm white?  Am I, or my family responsible 
>>for enslaving Africans or perpetuating their slavery?  Do you know my 
>>family history? 
>
>I don't know it but why don't you enlighten me.
My mother's family is from Syria.  They are Jewish, and they came here in
the 1910's.  My mother's father lived in Jersuaselem until 1919 when
there were riots.  My father's family is from Europe, he is Jewish, and his 
family arrived here in the 1890's.  Both families came as poor immigrants and 
lived in the ghettos (I think the term is correct) of New York.   They came
to escape anti-Semitism, and for better economic opportunities.  My mother's 
father stopped going to school in the 9th grade because he had to work to 
support his 10 brother's and sisters.  He used to sell shoe-laces and candy 
on the street.  My mother and father grew up in New York, and were the first in 
their families to ever go to college.  In the early 60's when the were
in Columbus Ohio, there were areas where they could not live because they
were Jewish.  My father is a professor of English at Michigan State 
Univeristy, and has taught courses and written papers on black literature.  
He served on the discrimination grievance panel, and last year was a 
co-organizer of a conference on Black-Jewish relations.  My mother is an 
editor at MSU.  She worked part time when she was raising her three sons, 
and volunteered in public schools working with bi-lingual students.  My 
parents are both democrats, and marched in civil rights marches in the 60's.    

>>If I found a black author who would say that 'Africans enslaved Africans
>>for the slave traders' would that make a difference to you?

>It depends on the author. There are many AfAms that have this self hate image.
>I would like to see if there are any books written by AfAms which would make  
>the claim that Africans enslaved Africans for the europeans.

I don't think that telling the truth about history indicates a negative
hateful image. This is simply a historical fact. 

>>You posted earlier something on Farrakhan.  Is that where your information
>>comes from?

>Nope.

>>You also said he was "an opponent of the Jewish community."  I gave you
>>a chance to explain what you meant through e-mail and you never did.

>Sorry I must have missed that. I don't remember saying that he was an
>opponent of the jewish community. I do support Farrakhan but that doesn't
>mean that I agree with everything he has to say. I don't agree with anyone
>all of the time.

Then check your e-mail and see if you have anything from me.  I sent
you mail on this issue.  I don't have a copy, and your post on this
issue is no longer on the server.

>Dowdy Jackson

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1601 alt.news-media:235 soc.culture.iranian:3415 soc.rights.human:1434 talk.politics.mideast:10799 talk.religion.misc:7072