HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Reason for SSTO/DCX and Market
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:15:19 GMT

In article <ewright.728250408@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

>>The ticket will cost (round trip) $100,000 to $200,000 (assuming you pack
>>them in like sardiens for a very uncomfortable trip). 

>On what do you base that estimate?  

50 people flying round trip (and in a 15X15X30 space it won't be
comfortable) at a cost of $5M to $10M per flight.

>What I heard from Boeing was "an order of magnitude more than 
>existing jet aircraft," which puts it an order of magnitude 
>below your figures.  Other estimates support this.

round trip to Australia is about $3,000 so Boeing is estimating
$30,000 or so which is well below an order of magnitude less than
my estimate.

As to the difference, there are too many factors which could expalin
it. Indeed, it may be possible to cut the cost to $30K in volume but
you won't be able to offer those prices initially. As it is I don't
think the market for $30,000 airline tickets is that great.

>As for being packed in like sardines, have you ever flown a 
>cattle ca... er, jet airliner?  

You need to compare it to first class.

>I'd rather spend 45 minutes,
>stuffed into a rocket, than 12 hours stuffed into an airplane.

All things being equal, so would I. However, I wouldn't pay
$27,000 more for it. Would you?

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        |
|  aws@iti.org     |  nothing undone"                                       |
+----------------------138 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Lubrication problem (was Re: Galileo Stuck Ribs / Remote Manipulator?)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:07:31 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1993Jan14.175452.1@fnala.fnal.gov> higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>> Who told you that loss of lubricant was the problem?  How about a
>> broken or cracked rib, or some other less obvious reason for the
>> jam?
>
>Loss of lubricant during truck travel is the best guess of Galileo's
>engineers...

It's important to note, though, that it remains only a theory, not an
established fact.  What's more, this theory seems rather low in predictive
power:  the same folks who told us that loss of lubricant was probably
the failure mode also told us that the heating/cooling turn sequence
would probably work the stuck ribs loose.  It didn't.

This is not to say that I have any better ideas, but do bear in mind
that the hard evidence is slim and our experience with such failures
essentially nonexistent.
-- 
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: spawn 
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:44:18 GMT

Problems without solutions are just as bad as the original problem..

Maybe people inthe future can post a possible solution to the problem that they
have identified..??


Michael Adams
Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
nsmca@acad2.alaska.edu







Newsgroups: sci.space
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: MIR AND SOLAR SAIL. COMBO
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:17:28 GMT

Imnot sure if this idea is feasible, but, its an idea..`
What about pre-positioning feul/food/gear packets along the route of the Mars
mission or maybe send a unmanned mission ahead maybe by Solar Sailer(s).
And pre-[.positioning the craft to be near na..mars when the Mir mission
arrives at Mars.

Michael C. Adams
NSMCA@ACAD3.ALASKA.EDU

0
8
From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Precursors to Fred (was Re: Sabatier Reactors.)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:43:29 GMT
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Distribution: world
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <26JAN199319493864@judy.uh.edu>, wingo%cspara@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:

[Dennis tries to convince Allen that building hardware and flying it on
Spacelab is a good thing]

You're talking to someone who wants to burn shuttle and put in its place a
made-in-Russia tin can. 

The wall will give you a better discussion Dennis, since Allen has already made
up his mind about the utility of anything (other than Freedom, which is needed
to assure the Soyuz/Atlas has a place to go) associated with the Shuttle is
patently Evil. 


                    I have talked to Ehud, and lived.
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Next  unmanned missions to Venus *
Date: 25 Jan 1993 17:09 UT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan24.063904.27492@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, rkornilo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ryan Korniloff) writes...
>Hmmm, well, I guess if we were to make any kind of serious exploration of
>Venus's  surface we would have to develop electronics componants that
>operate comforably at 900f. And metals that can protect the inards of the
>probe from terrential sulfuric acid down-poors..
>How WOULD we do that by the way? Anyone know??

The Soviets have been particularly prolific in sending probes to Venus.
They have successfully landed 8 spacecraft on the surface of Venus, with
each spacecraft lasted at least 53 minutes before succumbing to the
heat and pressure of the Venusian environment.  Venera 13 holds the record
of 127 minutes on the surface.  The Soviets have also
sent two balloons to Venus in 1985 that survived nearly two days in
the upper atmosphere of the planet.  The U.S. have never sent a true lander
to Venus, but two of the Pioneer Venus probes, which impacted on Venus in 1978,
actually survived the impact and continued to trasmit from the surface.  Below
is a table of how long each spacecraft lasted on the surface of Venus.

   1975    Venera 9              53 minutes
   1975    Venera 10             65 minutes
   1978    Pioneer Venus probe   2 seconds
   1978    Pioneer Venus probe   67.5 minutes
   1978    Venera 11             95 minutes
   1978    Venera 12             110 minutes
   1982    Venera 13             127 minutes
   1982    Venera 14             57 minutes
   1985    Vega 1                56 minutes
   1985    Vega 2                57 minutes
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Every once in a while,
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | try pushing your luck.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     |
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Next  unmanned missions to Venus *+
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:22:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1993Jan25.152205.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

2.In article <C1FLq4.GtM@gw.digibd.com>, rhealey@rogue.digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes:
> In article <1993Jan24.063904.27492@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, rkornilo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ryan Korniloff) writes:
> |> Hmmm, well, I guess if we were to make any kind of serious exploration of
> |> Venus's  surface we would have to develop electronics componants that
> |> operate comforably at 900f. And metals that can protect the inards of the
> |> probe from terrential sulfuric acid down-poors..
> |> How WOULD we do that by the way? Anyone know??
> |> 
> 	Remove the atmosphere of course... That might be quite a chore
> 	tho, kind of an anti-greenhouse effect device. A monster vacuum
> 	like in SpaceBall's maybe? B^).
> 
> 		-Rob


HEARD USING certain microbs which convert many of the components of venuses
atmophere can be used to terraform it.. (sorry for the CAPS) not using my

MICHAEL ADAMS
NSMCA@ACAD3.ALASKA.EDU

normal macine..

8
From: irwin@juliet.caltech.edu (Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: RE: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:36 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan26.230603.1@ducvax.auburn.edu>, shanleyl@ducvax.auburn.edu writes...
>oh...
> 
Come now, Paul...isn't it a relief to have the secrets of the universe revealed
in this way by Mr. McElwaine, whose prose possesses such clarity of thought,
such an enlightened vision, such...such...

BULLSHIT!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irwin Horowitz                        |
Astronomy Department                  |"Whoever heard of a female astronomer?"
California Institute of Technology    |--Charlene Sinclair, "Dinosaurs"
irwin@iago.caltech.edu                |
ih@deimos.caltech.edu                 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
Subject: Mars Observer Update - 01/25/93
Date: 26 Jan 1993 01:55 UT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from:
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011

                  MARS OBSERVER MISSION STATUS
                        January 25, 1993

     The Mars Observer spacecraft team reports that all
spacecraft and science operations are performing well.

     The Mars Observer camera, magnetometer/electron
reflectometer and gamma ray spectrometer were turned on Jan. 18
for instrument calibration activities, and began returning data
the following day.  The camera focus tests were completed at noon
today, while data-gathering by the two other instruments
continues this week.

     Data from the magnetometer recorded near the Earth's geotail
-- that region of space in which the solar wind is blocked as the
Earth orbits the sun -- will be played back from tape recorders 1
and 3 on Jan. 26 and 27.  Meanwhile, a telecommunications
experiment, called the "Ka Band Link Experiment," is being
performed to test the quality of ground-to-spacecraft
communications using a very short, 9-millimeter (36/100ths of an
inch) wavelength and a low-power transmitter on board the
spacecraft.  All other uplink and downlink activities are now
performed using the spacecraft's high-gain antenna.

     Today the spacecraft is about 64 million kilometers (40
million miles) from Earth, traveling at a speed of about 47,000
kilometers per hour (31,000 miles per hour) with respect to
Earth.  The spacecraft is traveling at a heliocentric velocity of
about 93,500 kilometers per hour (58,000 miles per hour).  One-
way light time is roughly 195 seconds.

                             #####
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Every once in a while,
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | try pushing your luck.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     |
From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Galileo update?
Date: 27 Jan 1993 22:42:11 -0500
Organization: UDSI
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com


I dont know about hammering the HGA during the Re-entry manuever
although it seems like a little risk may be called for.  besides
program the probe to stop hammering if you get more then n
ball screw rotations, where n<5.  

Also isn't there a plan to hammer the HGA during the probe deploy?

pat
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: bultman@sonny.unx.sas.com (David Bultman)
Subject: Re: Stafford receives Congressional Space Medal of Honor [Release 93-14] (Forwarded)
Originator: bultman@sonny.unx.sas.com
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:27:52 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: sonny.unx.sas.com
Path: bultman
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1993Jan21.214914.25271@news.arc.nasa.gov>, yee@atlas.arc.nasa.gov (Peter Yee) writes:

|> produced a report called "America at the Threshold," which is a 
|> roadmap for the next 30 years of U.S. manned space flight.  He 

How can I get a copy of this?

Thanks in advance,
-- 
David Bultman, bultman@unx.sas.com	SAS Institute, Inc.
Core Research and Development		SAS Campus Dr, Cary, NC
(919) 677-8000 x6875			27513-2414 USA
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: doconno@pollux (Darwin O'Connor)
Subject: Re: Mir mission to Mars?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:28:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.194517.28389@abo.fi> from [Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:45:17 GMT] you wrote:
> In <232310cec@ofa123.fidonet.org> David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
> 
> > The mission you mention is technically feasible, with some risks to the crew
> > that others here will certainly elaborate upon.
> 
> ....more info on the subject. I first learned about this from Frank
> Miles'/Nicholas Booth's RACE TO MARS: THE HARPER & ROW MARS FLIGHT ATLAS 

  [stuff deleted]

> > The major obstacle is money. The Russians don't have it, and the US is not
> > going to fund Russians exploration of Mars.
> >   
> > However, if the Finn government were to provide sufficient funding, I'm sure a 
> > human flight to Mars could be arranged.
> > 
> The superpowers should finance it, it probably would cost about as much as an
> Apollo lunar mission. It would provide a boost to space programs not only in
> Russia but also in the west. Mars has always had a special hold on the
> imagination, and I am sure there would be a lot of interest for the mission.
> Particularly in Russia. The Soviets were very proud of their achievements in
> space, seeing their excellent space program grounded due to lack of financial 
> support from the West hurts their pride almost as much as the fall of the 
> Soviet empire. The extremist hardliners there will not find it difficult to
> convince the average Russian that the westerners are to blame for this
> "Dolchstuss in Space."
> 
> > --- Maximus 2.01wb
> 
> MARCU$

I herd a report on the news (I don't remember by who or where) that Russians
view thier space program as a waste of money.

Darwin O'Connor
doconno@ccu.umanitoba.ca
From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Sabatier reactor? (was Re: Oxygen in Biosphere 2)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 15:51:04 -0500
Organization: UDSI
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <C16M2y.4uJ@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au> ggm@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (George Michaelson) writes:
|Does CH4 have any role inside a space station apart from making it
|smell farty?
|
|	 refrigerant gas?
|	 cooking :-) yes... I know it makes C02...
|
|Failing which would venting to space or using as supplement to position holding
|rocketry be worth the effort? 
|

Well, There was a plan to use it for stationkeeping but the SSF management
wienered out.  SOmebody told them because it hadn't been done it 
couldn't be done.  

I imagine,  heating would be somewhat difficult.

pat
From: roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov (John Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: "suicides" of SDI scientists
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:01:04 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology formerly National Bureau of Standards
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU


-From: dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein)
-Subject: ques about earlier "suicides" of SDI scientists
-Date: 19 Jan 93 08:51:42 GMT
-Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

-About five years ago, there were quite a few suicides by scientists in
-Europe who were asociated with the US led "strategic defense initiative."

-Quite a few of these seemed to be suspicious, and the gross numbers were
-quite a bit higher than would be expected in a group of this size.

-I haven't heard anything lately about this nor have I been able to track
-down the results of any investigations.  The only stuff I've found has
-been news articles simply describing the venets.

-Does anybody out there in greater NETLAND have any further info?  Or can
-you direct me to better sources?

Since this corresponds extremely closely to the classic 1951 short story
"Breeds there a Man...?", written by Isaac Asimov, and available in the
collections "Nightfall and Other Stories" and "Nightfall One", I'd say
there's a significant chance that you read either this story or a reference
to this story, and now you remember it as an historical event.

Or, maybe, [lowers voice to ominous tone] 
it...wasn't...just...a...story!!! [eerie music plays in background]

:-)
John Roberts
roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: jbulf@balsa.Berkeley.EDU (Jeff Bulf)
Subject: Re: Space Calendar - 01/28/93
Reply-To: jbulf@balsa.Berkeley.EDU (Jeff Bulf)
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computers Inc.
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 04:00:28 GMT

Nice Calendar! May I offer a couple of additions...

May ??	- 15th Anniversary, Pioneer Venus Orbiter Launch

Aug ?? 	- 15th Anniversary, Pioneer Venus Multiprobe Launch
	  (multiple atmospheric probes)
-- 
	dr memory
	jbulf@kpc.com
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: NASA Criticism and other...PART II
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:50:26 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: shanleyl@ducvax.auburn.edu's message of Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:31:03 GMT



On the question of NASA spin-offs, I seem to recall that
CCDs were originally developed at JPL in the 70's - can
someone confirm/deny this - have I fallen victim to
JPLs superb PR machine :-)

(and can we say Sony successfully transferred the technology
PROMPTLY to the benefit of all mankind?)

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|
From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube x554")
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Mir mission to Mars?
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:35:16 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

>    A flyby mission would require a total delta-V of the same magnitude as the
> mission outlined above, or about 5km/s for the Proton stage.

Sorry to be dense, but in this context does "flyby" mean not 
even properly *orbiting* Mars, perhaps to take a pick-axe to 
Phobos and Deimos, but rather merely sailing on by ?

> > However, if the Finn government were to provide sufficient funding, I'm sure a 
> > human flight to Mars could be arranged.

This will happen only is it can be repackaged as a support plan 
for the farmers.  Perhaps with enough hydroponics on board ..

-- 
* Fred Baube         ..when you think your Toys  you hear Laughter
* Optiplan O.Y.           * have gone Berserk    cracking through the Walls
* baube@optiplan.fi       * it's an illUsion     you're sent Spinning
* GU/MSFS                 * you Cannot Shirk     you Have No Choice
* #include <disclaimer.h> *                 -- Sioux proverb
* Where is the follow-on  * Everybody has a right to be stupid, but some 
*       to P.G.P. ??      *    people abuse the privilege -- Josef Stalin
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: Jim O'Brien <jzo@inel.gov>
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
X-Xxdate: Wed, 27 Jan 93 18:57:10 GMT
Organization: inel
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 01:57:03 GMT

Subject: Justification for the Space Program
From: RWTMS2::MUNIZB, MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@beach.rockwell.com
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:59:07 GMT
In article <C1ADyE.9FJ.1@cs.cmu.edu> RWTMS2::MUNIZB,
MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@beach.rockwell.com writes:
>I know that the discussion regarding the justification for the space 
>program died out about 2 weeks ago, but I just bought a book related to 
>the subject and I was wondering if anyone on the net has read it.
>
>It's called "Breakout Into Space, Mission for a Generation" by George 
>Henry Elias.  The cover blurb reads in part: "(the book) presents a 
>broadly, efficiently argued case for moving civilization beyond Earth's 
>limits and into the solar system. (Elias) explores the environmental, 
>economic,, and political benefits of space settlement.  Inhabiting space 
>is no longer science fiction, but human necessity - and destiny . . . 
>The establishment of a space civilization is an essential part of the 
>effort to preserve the environment, prevent global war, and provide a 
>stable economic future".
>
>Any comments about the book, either pro or con?
>
>Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
>Ben Muniz     MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com    w(818)586-3578
>Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
>   "Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901

Don't know anything about the book, but I'll stay stuck to this beautiful
green and blue planet for a while, thank you.  I think this is a totally
unrealistic and ridiculous justification for the space program.  Pursuit
of basic scientific knowledge should be our focus, at least for the
forseeable future.



###################################################

Jim O'Brien
jzo@inel.gov

Just SLIPpin' along...


<Sorry about the obnoxious disclaimer>
###################################################
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Xref: sparky sci.space:19805 sci.astro:14448 alt.sci.planetary:612
From: edm@gocart.twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
Subject: Re: JPL Anonymous FTP Site
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:29:29 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp

>>>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:35:14 -0500 , Lawrence Curcio <lc2b+@andrew.cmu.edu> said:

LC> All very nice, but I have a calendar with most of the same stuff. Also,
LC> whatever happened to the :) on Mars?

Actually there is a "happy face" on Mars.  Not the face Hoagland
is going on about but one that looks like a smiley.  I have the data
around here somewhere.  If anyone is interested I could post it
to one of the binarie groups or upload it to ames.  Is the new
JPL site taking submissions or is it only for material from JPL?
--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)