From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Multiple Hechshers
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:09:15 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
>I think that Jews have enough problems without multiple hechshers.
>Multiple hechshers mean multiple troubles for Jews.  We have a 
>great number of such fellows around here and it only makes trouble.

In theory I agree.  But what about the differences between Ashkenazim
and Sepahrdim, for instance?  If we want a unified hekhsher for Pesach,
which should it be?  If it's only A, then the S have to give up their
kitniot.  If it's only S, then the A are going to be unable to eat
much of the hekhshered products, effectively ignoring the hekhsher.

>They even give hechshers on bottled water, to my mind unbelievable.  

I find this pretty tough to understand too.  (I hope at least that
they don't grant it to New Jersey water. :-)  I have heard that some
of the water companies actually WANT the hekhsher on the label.  I
have no way of knowing whether this is anything more than rationalizing
on the part of the supervising agencies.  If this is true, should the
agency refuse?  I don't know.  I would hope, at least, that they
charge only a nominal fee.

I suppose another issue might be general knowledge of the kosher
consumer (consumer of kosher goods, that is).  Is it possible that
some people don't know that (untreated) water doesn't need any
supervision.  (Am I providing another avenue of rationalization?)
There are certainly other similar issues.  For example, up until
a few years ago, everyone was saying, "What could be unkosher
about pure canned tomatoes?" and "How could frozen vegetables
be treif?"  Well, they can most definitely be problematic.

I am not defending the abuse in the kashrut industry, by any means.
The water issue seems pretty clear to me, but there are other gray
areas (continuing my metaphor on New Jersey water).

>I know that 1/2 the things I ate 10 years ago which were Kosher 
>then are no longer kosher according to several of the new hechshers.

Were kosher then, or were assumed to be kosher then?  Were they
under hashgacha?  Are they no longer, even by the original agencies?
It's possible that ingredients change or that greater knowledge of
food technology shows certain foods to have never been kosher.  On
the other hand, politics and money are involved as well.  And there
are, of course, unreliable "hekhsherim" around.  To deny that would
be naive.

>Traveling on an El Al plane can be wild.  The local hechsher is not
>good enough for some of the passengers; at least two London ones, a
>Swiss and Belgian one were requested by neighbors of mine.  And finally
>there was the fellow who refused all food and took out his home-made
>sandwich.  Yiden, gevald!

I entered a new kosher restaurant in lower Manhattan.  The place
looked pretty good; there were even a couple of black hats in there
(with people under them too!).  I asked which supervising agency gives
hashgacha and was handed a "te`uda" attesting to all the stuff one
would expect, including a mashgiach temidi (constant supervision).  The letterhead was from a local organization I had never heard of, but
appeared to be above reproach.  So I asked to speak to the mashgiach.

"Well, he's not here just at the moment, but he should be back shortly,"
I was told.  I was a bit surprised.  I asked if he placed someone else
in authority in his absence.  "No."  I explained to them that the letter
did say "constant," and though I may not be aware of all the requirements,
I would have expected him to be there.  I was very polite.  The became
very indignant.  (I guess they were regulars on the net :-)  They
started to become defensive.  "You can't expect him to stay here 24 hours
a day!  He had to go to the bank.  He'll be back in five minutes."

It was 11:30; the restaurant had opened only half an hour earlier.
Had going to the bank been so important, couldn't he have done it
sometime between 9 and 11?  I told them I'll call to speak to him
another time, since I could not comfortably eat there, yet.  They
protested, "No-one has higher standards than we do."  I said that that
may be, but I am not from the area, so I am unfortunately unfamiliar
with this particualr organization.  Please understand my ignorance.
They just kept muttering as I left.

At that point, I decided that it was not worth calling back.  They
had little regard for my sensibilities as a kosher consumer.  Their
hashgach may have been impeccable (though I now have my doubts).  But
a merchant of kosher products should realize that an honest, concerned,
kosher consumer should and will ask questions when unsure.  We can't
all know the reliability of every local agency.

Perhaps this supports the idea of one supervising agency worldwide.
But who will set the standards?  Unless it meets the highest, many
will not accept it.  They will set up their own.  If it does meet
the highest standards, I suspect it will not be very widespread.

Catch-22.

-Major Major (Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish