From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Withdrawal from the Rialto
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:30:23 GMT
Distribution: na, world
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


To Greg, From Tom Perigrin,

	You make many valuable points.  Unfortunately I am too too busy with
a Aug 1 dealine to be able to take the time to address them all.  However,
I wanted to address one main issue:

	You are frustrated.  You "hit a rock solid wall".

	You obviously have strong convictions in your real life,  
and demonstrate a clear understanding of some of your choices behind them, and
the choices about having convictions.   As you say, some people on the
Rialto don't have convictions, or don't evidence them.  Some people would like
to have convictions, but don't know how to find them.   Other people
have convictions as strong as yours.  With those people, you may
have to agree to disagree.

	However, your frustration seems to stem from two things:   cross
cultural misunderstanding,  and failure to convince people that your positions
are valid.

	The former is something which is a fact of life in all fora;  SCA, 
scientific, cultural.   Unless you want to become exceedingly provincial
and only be able to function in your own limited Texan culture,  then you
must learn to deal with the fluid cultures of the various mileaux in which 
you will find yourself.  of course, the burden is not entirely yours ...
we must also learn to deal better with you.    But you will disallow
us that opportunity if you do not continue to interact, and to teach us.

	The second problem (failure to convince) seems to me (this is a 
personal opinion based on too little fact and could easily be wrong) to
evidence a certain eagerness and impatience on your part.  'You have talked
and atalked, and we are still too dense to get it.'   Let me say
that 'getting it' sometimes takes years.   A true story to illustrate:

	Years ago I was of a very different political and philosphical 
persuasion than I am now.  I went to a University where the 
prevailing political opinions where nearly diametrically opposed to those
I held before attending.  I spent many many hours argueing with people who
were probably frustrated as heck that I was so dense.   I think they expected
me to see the light of their views, and acheive instant conversion.

	Of course,  what actually hppened was that they planted some
significant seeds of doubt.   Long after the arguements stopped I continued
to ponder what they had said, and I realized that some of my conclusions
were flawed and some of my basic assumptions were false.   I essentially
underwent a crises of faith and conviction years AFTER the causal events.
Eventually I came to a synthesis which was stronger than either the
thesis or antithesis that had preceeded it.

	This is the mode I work with now;   I think of what I am doing
as planting seeds of doubt and thought.   I know that I will seldom
cause anyone to immediatly change their minds on any point, except for 
simple factual points.   And sometimes people get so "het up" during 
an arguement that they won't even acknowledge truth when it hits them in
the kisser.    But I don't get worried, and I try not to get frustrated -
because I know that the seeds have been sown.

	Of course, many seeds never germinate.   But I know I can't
FORCE my convictions or opinions down people's throats...   so I 
follow the past with the best conversion/ucler ratio:  I just tend
my little garden of myself,  throw a few seeds out, hope they germinate,
and try not to let things fuss me too much.



	I would personally hate to lose you in this forum.   Not due to the
fact that I like you personally;  I don't really know you well enough to say
that yet.   But I find your depth of knowledge to be exceedingly valuable.
Often times you have been able to cut through tons of speculation, 
Victorian idealism and bullshit with a well thought out and referenced example.
You have provided a standard of scholarship which I value not only for the
facts,  but also for the example it sets for the rest of us,  myself included.
I know several other people who feel the same way.  If you leave, you will 
be depriving many of us of your knowledge and abilities.  As an educator,
I would think that you might see this need and desire on our parts, and
strive to fulfill that role.   Of course, as a human, you will have to
weigh the social costs of dealing with the ocassional Daffyd-ap-jerk.
But I would resent it if you let mean spirited people ruin the fun for the
rest of us.



	Can I convince you to stay and help me tend the garden?


				Tom Perigrin