HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly)
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:45:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
	<1992Nov17.005252@gruc19.nor.chevron.com>

hjiwa@gruc19.nor.chevron.com (Jeff Wang) writes:
) bvaughan@sheps.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:
) |> Back in the days when I mostly worked with MSDOS and had a good editor
) |> that handled rectangular blocks easily, I used to use it to prepare data
) |> so I COULD read it into a spreadsheet or word processor.  For instance, if
) |> I have a file  of formatted data:
) |> 
) |> 123456789
) |> 987654321
) |> 
) |> I can use my editor to insert a column of blanks in front of each field so
) |> it can be read into a spreadsheet program:
) |> 
) |> 12 34 56 78 9
) |> 98 76 54 32 1

) You could use :%s\(..\)\(..\)\(..\)\(..\)\(.\)/\1 \2 \3 \4 \5/
) to do that.

I use vi (or VIP, a vi emulation for GNU Emacs) all the time,
and I seem to spend half my life building up complex regular
expressions for searches and substitutions, but I don't find
the above solution to be particularly satisfactory.  It works,
certainly, and I would use it if I had nothing better, but
Emacs's rectangle commands, for example, would require much
less thought.

There's no way a non-programmer would come up with Jeff's
solution, whereas many of them would use a block/rectangle
insertion---if they knew about it.

Yes, I know vi is primarily meant to be a programmers' editor,
but many non-programmers end up having to use it and hating it,
despite the widespread availability of other, simpler editors.

) |> I also found this feature useful when writing programs.  Let's say I have
) |> a section of code I decide to make conditional, so I want to indent it to
) |> make an "if.. then.." block.  I just insert a column of blanks in front of
) |> that section of code.

) You could use :'a,'bs/^/  / to shift a block to the right.

Or mark the region and do a M-x indent-region, a solution
that works in more complex cases too.

I like vi: it starts up quickly, I can move around and change
text much more quickly with the vi command set than with any
other editor I know, and it's my editor of choice for making
quick changes to a file.  But I do all my serious editing in
GNU Emacs: it has multiple buffers, multiple windows, and
multiple undo; it has clever indenting (I now hate to write
code with real vi); it has online manuals and other forms of
help; it's customizable; it has built-in text formatting; and
a pile of other features which I use infrequently, if at all.
It's also big, bloated, often sluggish, and I don't like the
standard keybindings (which is why I use the vi emulation).

Vi can be made to do a lot of things, but it's often damned
hard work.  Why pipe a block of text out to fmt when you can
press M-q to reformat it?  (Actually, I usually use a vi
macro which splits the line at the 65th character.)  And I
like pressing Return while typing in code and having the
cursor automatically being in the right column.

Keep masochism in the bedroom where it belongs.
________________
George V. Reilly   <GeorgeRe@Microsoft.Com>
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: wittesa@reks.uia.ac.be (Willy Wittesaele)
Subject: JOE 1.0.4 problem
Organization: U.I.A.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:27:12 GMT

Hello ,

I have JOE 1.0.4 running under SCO 3.2.2 and it works fine when I start
it up from the console (TERM = ansi) . I compiled it with the -xenix compiler
option and no optimizations (otherwise the help-screens are a mess).
However when I start it up from a vt-100 like terminal (connected at
9600 baud .... the program starts with the message "Processing keymap
file ...... done" and then it takes between 15 and 20 sec. before the
editing session starts with an empty screen and the top & bottom lines ?

Any idea what's going here ?


Please answer via this news-group so that everyone can share in the
discussion.

Willy , wittesa@reks.uia.ac.be
From: dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com (DWT)
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:31:59 GMT
Organization: Contributor Account at ddsw1, Chicago, Illinois  60657

hjiwa@gruc19.nor.chevron.com (Jeff Wang) wrote in
<1992Nov17.005252@gruc19.nor.chevron.com>:

W> bvaughan@sheps.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:

V> I also found this feature useful when writing programs.  Let's say I have
V> a section of code I decide to make conditional, so I want to indent it to
V> make an "if.. then.." block.  I just insert a column of blanks in front of
V> that section of code.

W> You could use :'a,'bs/^/  / to shift a block to the right.

If you want to indent it by one shiftwidth -- and it doesn't make much sense
to set shiftwidth to any other value than your indentation increment -- you
can use :'a,'b> in vi.  Heck, don't even mark the range: move to the top and

:.,/^$/-1>

Oh, belay that.  Just do }> and you've indented the rest of the paragraph.
None of these suggestions require shelling out to fork another program.  }>
doesn't even need a switch to ex mode.

David W. Tamkin   Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com    CompuServe: 73720,1570    MCI Mail: 426-1818
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: lachlan@dmp.csiro.au (Lachlan Cranswick)
Subject: Re: VI??? GROSS!
Organization: CSIRO Division of Mineral Products, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:46:16 GMT

phd85@seq1.keele.ac.uk (D.H. Holden) writes:

>From article <Z8U84BL@math.fu-berlin.de>, by wolff@inf.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Wolff):
>   I've only been using vi for a few month, and have found it can do all
>   the things that Thomas Wolf seem to think it can't.  Try useing something 
>   before critising, it make your case that much stronger.
>   I've been astounded at the misrepresentations about the capabilities
>   of vi. It's actually very powerful when combined with the operating
>   system it comes standard with, i.e. UNIX.
>   If it does have a fault it's the lack of online documentation.
>   
>Try useing something 
>   before critising.

>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        ma (move to end of critising) y`a  (move to
>	end of paragraph,  p

The fact that vi is powerfull is part of the problem with new users
of UNIX.  They need something simple that is easy to learn.
VI is not in this category.
-- 
  Lachlan Cranswick  -  CSIRO             _--_|\  lachlan@dmp.CSIRO.AU
  Division of Mineral Products           /      \ tel +61 3 647 0367
  PO Box 124, Port Melbourne 3207        \_.--._/ fax +61 3 646 3223
  AUSTRALIA                                    v 
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder)
Subject: Re: How can I resize Elvis in a xterm window?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:32:11 GMT

In <ellis.721949068@nova> ellis@nova.gmi.edu (Stew Ellis) writes:
>One of the first tests I perform on an editor before I install it in the the
>/usr/local/bin/ directory of our Sun is whether it behaves properly when an
>X term is resized.  Jove, joe and emacs do.  I have not tried any vi
>variants.  It is a matter of testing for the signal TCGETWINSIZE (sp?).

It's spelled SIGWINCH.

I have tested vi variants.  The one that comes with SunOS 4.0.x does react
to SIGWINCH; the one that comes with 4.1.x doesn't.  Weird, but true.

Sun's explanation is that the "new" version of vi (since when does SVR3.1
count as "new" ???) is 8-bit clean and the other one isn't.  And who would
run X windows on a Sun anyway :-?

--
Hope this helps,

Hans Mulder				hansm@cs.kun.nl
Newsgroups: comp.editors,alt.religion.emacs,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.xenix.misc,comp.os.linux
From: jhallen@world.std.com (Joseph H Allen)
Subject: JOE 1.0.3
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:29:19 GMT

With version 1.0.3 I think Joe's Own Editor is beta tested enough so that it 
will be useable.  I fixed some minor bugs involving the windows, the modifed 
flag, word wrap, and braindead termcap entries (it turns out that 'al' and 
'dl' get parameters and that people actually build 'al' and 'dl' out of 
scrolling regions).  

You can get it by anonymous ftp from: world.std.com, file: 
src/editors/joe.tar.Z.  Wait until 10 or so EST today to give the operator 
time to install it.  

Oh also JOE will use the insert and delete character termcap capabilities.
It's really nice now at low baud rates.

I rearranged the help windows so that all the most basic editing commands 
are on the first one.  This should be good for when JOE is set up to start 
with the help on.  This is what it looks like: 

CURSOR           GO TO            BLOCK      DELETE   MISC         EXIT
^B left ^F right ^U  prev. screen ^KB begin  ^D char. ^KJ reformat ^KX save
^P up   ^N down  ^V  next screen  ^KK end    ^Y line  ^TT overtype ^C  abort
^Z previous word ^A  beg. of line ^KM move   ^W >word `   Ctrl-    ^KZ shell
^X next word     ^E  end of line  ^KC copy   ^O word< ^  Meta-     FILE
SEARCH           ^KU top of file  ^KW file   ^J >line ^R  retype   ^KE new
^KF find text    ^KV end of file  ^KY delete ^_ undo  ^@  insert   ^KR insert
^L  find next    ^KL to line No.  ^K/ filter ^^ redo               ^KD save

I think it's complete enough for most basic editing without being too 
cryptic.
-- 
/*  jhallen@world.std.com */     /* Amazing */            /* Joseph H. Allen */
int a[1817];main(z,p,q,r){for(p=80;q+p-80;p-=2*a[p])for(z=9;z--;)q=3&(r=time(0)
+r*57)/7,q=q?q-1?q-2?1-p%79?-1:0:p%79-77?1:0:p<1659?79:0:p>158?-79:0,q?!a[p+q*2
]?a[p+=a[p+=q]=q]=q:0:0;for(;q++-1817;)printf(q%79?"%c":"%c\n"," #"[!a[q-1]]);}
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 05:33:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.145011.24541@Princeton.EDU> bvaughan@sheps.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:
>   1 | 23 |
>-----+----+
>     |    |
>   3 | 45 +
>-----+----+
>
>I can get rid of those  vertical bar columns in a jiffy with a good
>editor, so that I can do the rest of the job of making a nice document in
>WordPerfect. 

I don't understand... WordPerfect does columns nicely.  Even though the
highlighted area covers full lines as you move, you can still delete
copy or move just the rectangle delimited by the cursor positions when you
start the block operation and when you give the command.  That's the
difference between "block" and "rectangle" operations.

Les Mikesell
 les@chinet.chi.il.us
Newsgroups: comp.editors,alt.religion.emacs,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.xenix.misc,comp.os.linux
From: jhallen@world.std.com (Joseph H Allen)
Subject: JOE 1.0.5 New features and fixes
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:30:22 GMT


A new version of Joe's Own Editor is complete.  Get is by anonymous ftp to 
world.std.com, file: src/editors/joe1.0.5.tar.Z.  Also look for it on 
'alt.sources' This has a number of fixes and new features: 

- Rectangle/Column mode.  I think I've made a very good implementation of 
this stuff.  It's really neat, I could have used this earlier.  When this 
mode is selected, the normal block commands (including filter block through 
unix command) and insert file work on rectangles.  Also if overtype mode is 
set, these commands overtype instead.  Also when rectangle mode is set, 
indent and unindent will work with the insertion/deletion point as the 
left side of the rectangle instead of the beginning of the lines.

- Can set tab width

- Can set indent/unindent step column-width and fill character

- ^K ;  now does a tags file search

- if there's only one help screen defined, then ^KH immediatly turns on help
instead of giving a menu

- same deal with TAB completion- if only one item matches, it does a simple
completion

- unnamed files get the name first given to save file ^K D

- joe is now in a subdirectory in the tar archive.  Also as you can see,
I'm including the version number along with the name

- the problems with the optimizer on Xenix and with back-tab on SCO UNIX are
fixed.  You still have to use 'ttysv' with SCO UNIX- I need to get access to
a SCO UNIX machine to make a tty interface for it.  I think the posix tty 
interface is probably pretty close.

- string searches were crashing when they got to the end of the file.  this 
is fixed now.  

Hex dump edit mode, fixed record length edit more and a new 'man' page are 
on the way.

The only major features which I feel are still missing are shell windows and 
background loading/demand loading.  These are going to be mess as far as 
portability so they'll probably take a while.
-- 
/*  jhallen@world.std.com */     /* Amazing */            /* Joseph H. Allen */
int a[1817];main(z,p,q,r){for(p=80;q+p-80;p-=2*a[p])for(z=9;z--;)q=3&(r=time(0)
+r*57)/7,q=q?q-1?q-2?1-p%79?-1:0:p%79-77?1:0:p<1659?79:0:p>158?-79:0,q?!a[p+q*2
]?a[p+=a[p+=q]=q]=q:0:0;for(;q++-1817;)printf(q%79?"%c":"%c\n"," #"[!a[q-1]]);}
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: keithv@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Vetter)
Subject: VI - finding lines longer than 80 characters
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:53:43 GMT

In VI, is there an easy way to find all lines whose length
is greater than 80 characters?  I realize tabs are a problem but
let's assume that there are no tabs.

Thanks

Keith
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: jhallen@world.std.com (Joseph H Allen)
Subject: Re: JOE 1.0.4 problem
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:57:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.202712.9346@reks.uia.ac.be> wittesa@reks.uia.ac.be (Willy Wittesaele) writes:
>Hello ,

>I have JOE 1.0.4 running under SCO 3.2.2 and it works fine when I start
>it up from the console (TERM = ansi) . I compiled it with the -xenix compiler
>option and no optimizations (otherwise the help-screens are a mess).

The problem with the optimizer and the help screens is fixed in the latest 
version.  There was a bug in the routines which handled back-tab and tab.  
(The SCO UNIX and Xenix consoles are the only ttys so far that have 
back-tab).  

>However when I start it up from a vt-100 like terminal (connected at
>9600 baud .... the program starts with the message "Processing keymap
>file ...... done" and then it takes between 15 and 20 sec. before the
>editing session starts with an empty screen and the top & bottom lines ?

This sounds like something to do with the initialization string given in the 
vt100 termcap entry or perhaps a bug in the part of JOE which sends out pad 
characters.  Try copying the termcap file supplied with joe to $HOME/.termcap
Let me know if this fixes the problem.

You might also try using 'make sv' instead of 'make xenix', but you have to 
put these add these lines into the ttysv.c file: 

	#include <sys/types.h>
	#include <sys/stream.h>
	#include <sys/ptem.h>
	#undef SIGCONT

The xenix driver should be better than the system V one though.

>Willy , wittesa@reks.uia.ac.be
From: bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Anyone use SAM?
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:46:50 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
In-reply-to: pete@minster.york.ac.uk's message of 17 Nov 92 12:44:29 GMT

In article <722004268.18766@minster.york.ac.uk> pete@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
   : A prime example is knowing
   : something about the indentation of languages.  I write a fair amount
   : of Scheme and I find it tough going in sam.
   
   But the redirection mechanism inside sam allows you to pipe
   arbitrary blocks of text through Unix pipelines -- write a scheme
   indentation tool, select your block of Lisp and then use the ``|''
   command in the command window to pipe it through the formatter...

This is obviously _a_ solution, it is just not the one I'm used to.
I'm still used to the editor indenting on the fly.   As I wrote, maybe
I've been spoilt and just need to adjust the sam way of thinking.

bevan
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rnelson@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (roger nelson;S23487)
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Organization: Washington State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 11:07:58 GMT

>Does any editor allow the user to manipulate truly arbitrary blocks of
>text? Vi prefers whole lines of text, some editors permit rectangular
>blocks of text, but I have yet to see one that enables me to work with
>arbitrary blocks.

In what editing situation would this be at all useful?
How would you paste the block: concatenating the lines or
preserving the orientation of the characters in the polygon?



Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: night@acm.rpi.edu (Trip Martin)
Subject: Re: VI - finding lines longer than 80 characters
Reply-To: night@acm.rpi.edu
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:04:28 GMT

In <1992Nov20.005343.807@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> keithv@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Keith Vetter) writes:

>In VI, is there an easy way to find all lines whose length
>is greater than 80 characters?  I realize tabs are a problem but
>let's assume that there are no tabs.

If you just want to print them out, you can use:

:g/.\{81,\}/p

Unfortunately, the \{n,m\} construction doesn't work in search mode.

BTW, is there a way to easily re-execute the last ex command in vi?
-- 
Trip Martin
night@acm.rpi.edu
--
Trip Martin
night@acm.rpi.edu
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: ciacovel@telesciences.com (Chris D Iacovelli)
Subject: Re: VI - finding lines longer than 80 characters
Organization: TeleSciences CO Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:26:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.194628.17508@prl.dec.com> boyd@prl.dec.com (Boyd Roberts) writes:
>I thought this was one well known feature of vi.  Lines over 80 chars
>usually screw your screen up -- no searching necessary...
>
>
>Boyd Roberts			boyd@prl.dec.com
>
>``When the going gets wierd, the weird turn pro...''

<----- WARNING: This is not a flame ----->

Not. What happens if you use a window that is greater than 80
characters wide, i.e. xterm -g66x132. This does not "screw your screen up" and
searching is still necessary.

Just my $0.02.

Chris.
Chris Iacovelli
Member, Technical Staff
Telesciences CO Systems
ciacovel@telesciences.com
if (flame)
 > /dev/null
fi
From: hjiwa@gruc19.nor.chevron.com (Jeff Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Arbitrary text blocks (Was: VI??? GROSS!)
Date: 17 Nov 92 06:52:52 GMT
Organization: Chevron Petroleum Technology Company

bvaughan@sheps.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:
|> Back in the days when I mostly worked with MSDOS and had a good editor
|> that handled rectangular blocks easily, I used to use it to prepare data
|> so I COULD read it into a spreadsheet or word processor.  For instance, if
|> I have a file  of formatted data:
|> 
|> 123456789
|> 987654321
|> 
|> I can use my editor to insert a column of blanks in front of each field so
|> it can be read into a spreadsheet program:
|> 
|> 12 34 56 78 9
|> 98 76 54 32 1

You could use :%s\(..\)\(..\)\(..\)\(..\)\(.\)/\1 \2 \3 \4 \5/
to do that.

|> Or if I have some ugly SPSS CROSSTAB output, where cells are separated by
|> dashes, plus signs and vertical bars:
|> 
|>    1 | 23 |
|> -----+----+
|>      |    |
|>    3 | 45 +
|> -----+----+
|> 
|> I can get rid of those  vertical bar columns in a jiffy with a good
|> editor, so that I can do the rest of the job of making a nice document in
|> WordPerfect. 

You could use :%s/|//g  or  :%s/[|+-]//g  to do that.

|> I also found this feature useful when writing programs.  Let's say I have
|> a section of code I decide to make conditional, so I want to indent it to
|> make an "if.. then.." block.  I just insert a column of blanks in front of
|> that section of code.

You could use :'a,'bs/^/  / to shift a block to the right.

-- 
 #====}==) #===(==}  #====}==) #===(==}  {==)===# (=={====#  {==)===# (=={====#
>> Jeff Wang                             Net   : hjiwa@gruc19.nor.chevron.com <<
>> Chevron Petroleum Technology Company  Profs : hjiwa (hovmb)                <<
>> Geophysical/Geological Applications   Phone : (504) 592-6162               <<
>> 935 Gravier Street, Room 1006         Fax   : (504) 592-6958               <<
>> New Orleans, Louisiana 70112          Valeo,vales. Die dulci fruimini!! :) <<
 #====}==) #===(==}  #====}==) #===(==}  {==)===# (=={====#  {==)===# (=={====#
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: hsue@ellis.uchicago.edu (marc jacobson)
Subject: help wanted
Reply-To: hsue@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: none to speak of
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:30:39 GMT

    Infor Needed: TeX to typeset letterhead


 Would any one please send me an example  showing how to use TeX to
typeset letterhead stationary.  Thank you very much.


Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: lachlan@dmp.csiro.au (Lachlan Cranswick)
Subject: Re: VI??? GROSS!
Organization: CSIRO Division of Mineral Products, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:43:56 GMT

wolff@inf.fu-berlin.de (Thomas Wolff) writes:

>As a reaction to my moroseness about the apparent unavailability of a 
>simple text editor for Unix and the monstrous complexity and slowness 
>of the only widely spread alternative (emacs), I captured the source 
>of a freely available editor and turned it into a safe, fast, and easy 
>to use text editor. (I also announced it to this group some time ago.)
>It is available by ftp from ftp.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.50]:
>/pub/unix/editor/mined.tar.Z (108841 bytes)
>/pub/pc/editor/mined_pc.zip (114522 bytes)

I'm FTPing the above editor to try it out.  But a good -
simple editor I have just given to site users
is PICO.  It really is very simple and users didn't
believe there could ever be a simple editor for UNIX but they
have been proved wrong.  It is also public domain software.


It also came with
a number of makefiles for different computers so I didn't have
library problems to get the thing to compile.

FEATURES:-
It has the menu at the bottom on the screen with all the options.
Line wrap.
REALLY USER FRIENDLY.

I no longer have to feel guilty about introducing
new users to UNIX by warning them to leave an afternoon
or two free to learn vi.

It is very easy to get elm to use it as its default editor
and you can make nn use PICO as its default editor by putting
the line

setenv EDITOR /bin/pico  (or wherever the editor is)


One of the indicators on how much average users hate vi
is that some of the site users were editing their
documents in a simple DOS editor, then uploading
it to the unix machine.  Is this comomon on other
sites that use UNIX.

The most extreme case was for email.  The person edited
his letter in MS WORD 5.0 for DOS.  Saving the final copy as
a text file.  Then uploading it via serial line to the UNIX
machine to mail off.

This question was part of the is UNIX dead flamewar on comp.unix.questions
but if UNIX is so good compared to DOS - and DOS is the bottom of the barrel -
how come you never seem to find new DOS users uploading their text files
to a UNIX machine to edit.  This seems to imply UNIX has some big
failings with common users.  And no - the fact that you can get vi for DOS
is not the only answer!!  

At least with some very kind people writing
simple editors for UNIX, new users will not be turned off immediately
after they try to edit a text file.
-- 
  Lachlan Cranswick  -  CSIRO             _--_|\  lachlan@dmp.CSIRO.AU
  Division of Mineral Products           /      \ tel +61 3 647 0367
  PO Box 124, Port Melbourne 3207        \_.--._/ fax +61 3 646 3223
  AUSTRALIA                                    v 
Newsgroups: comp.editors