HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CONEGA@APPSTATE.EDU (Greg Cone)
Subject: Re: The Mary Eno Pinchot Meyer story (relations with JFK + T
Organization: APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:00:17 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <1992Jul30.024458.20121@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> grimm@eecae.ee.msu.edu writes:

> CONEGA@APPSTATE.EDU (Greg Cone) writes:
> 
> >In <CRATHBUN.92Jul28185731@dante.nmsu.edu> crathbun@nmsu.edu writes:
> 
> >> re: kennedy
> >> actually kennedy was an idiot!
> >> he was a power crazed, sex fiend(guess he wasn't all bad),
> >> meglomaniacal fool who brought the world to the brink of nuclear
> >> anhilation several times with his grandstanding politics designed to
> >> make him look good regardless of the threat to peace he caused.
> >>
> 
> >Hmmm...  Except maybe the sex fiend part, sounds like our current prez.
> >  
> 
> Gee, when did Georgy-boy bring us to the nuclear brink?  
> 
> Now, Grandstanding politics I see -- but then again, so has every president
> since Washington (actually, including Washington).
> 
> Mike G

It has NOT been determined with 100% certainty that Saddam does not have
at least one albeit crude nuclear device under his sleeve.  Unless you
wish to make a distinction between a nuclear device detonated somewhere
in the middle east as opposed to continental US, we (the lowly public)
do not know how close to going nuclear the Persian Gulf Massacre came.
 
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:2753 alt.smouldering.dog.zone:34
From: crathbun@nmsu.edu (Chriss Rathbun)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.smouldering.dog.zone
Subject: Re: The Mary Eno Pinchot Meyer story (relations with JFK + Timmy Leary)
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:10:34 GMT
	<1992Jul27.093053.21353@becker.GTS.ORG>
	<CRATHBUN.92Jul28185731@dante.nmsu.edu>
	<1992Jul29.171314.12318@cbnews.cb.att.com>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

sigh, big sigh.
alright, since some of you have made the mistake of taking me way too
seriously, i'll elaborate (*"please chriss don't!"*)
firstly it amazes me how history varies ;)
my version of the past comes from government files made public,
gorby's biography, time magazine and the all time authority on
political journalism, playboy magazine(i've heard they have some neat
pics too, but i'm always too busy reading the articles)
and it goes something like this,
(sing along now)

jfk agreed to support the invasion of cuba by cuban nationals and us
"advisors" by providing the all important air cover. (anybody catch
desert storm on the tube? in other words air cover is the key)
at the last minute, while the troops(?) were landing he withdrew his
consent for air support. result=slaughter of all actively opposed to
castro's cuba and 1/2 of the cia.

re: missiles
gorby was quoted as saying that it came very close to the hotter heads
in moscow decided that a "premptive strike" would be preferable to
pulling the missiles out of cuba and that that is almost what
happened.  and ultimatims to the bear were not exactly a case of cold
war diplomacy in any event. and maybe i missed it but i don't see,
"remove those missiles now! or else!" as give and take negotiation, of
course my ex used to "negotiate" that way. ;)
oh wait! tone is important so,
merry meet, merry great, smelly feat? <--- no real offense intended
(rat waves goodbye while bowing to the elements)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: Wesley J. Liebeler (JFK)
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:42:51 GMT

david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes:


>In article <schuck.711648701@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:

>|You can see these bullets pictured together on pg 335 of the 
>|HSCA Report Vol 1.
>|
>|There is no way CE 399 did so much damage to Connally and remained
>|less damaged than bullets fired into *cotton wadding*.

>The above bullets shown take much more damage than sustained by Connnally.
>Nichols fired a bullet into a Block of pine and the resulting bullet was
>pristine and undeformed.

I think you have to consider the relative hardness of pine and bone.

Bone is very hard. Pine is very soft.

You can gouge pine with your fingernails. You can't do that with bone.
 
>In my opinion it is the land and groove marks that betray CE399 as bad
>evidence: since they were so intact, it is impossible that CE399 to have

>1) left fragments in Connally
>2) Come out with no blood or tissue

Those are two very good points.

>However, I think it is a mistake to assume that if a bullet *looks* pristine
>to the naked eye it must be so. (Unless you have more information on Nichols
>Bullet)

I don't have any information on Nichols' bullet.

I just have the test bullets fired by the WC.

When 6.5mm copper jacketed bullets hit bone such as goat ribs [which
are smaller than human ribs] they deformed.

Maybe Nichols' should have tried 2cm of bone instead of 72cm of pine
[or whatever amount he used]






Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:2724 sci.skeptic:13336 alt.conspiracy:9444
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Oswald's Photograph
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:49:00 GMT
Reply-To: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technologies, Mt. View, California.

In article <cortez.712064878@milton>, cortez@milton.u.washington.edu
(Tom Warner) writes:
|>  
|> 	Have you read the stuff in High Treason 2 about Groden? I find it
|> fairly convincing that Groden is either a kook or worse.

I have been reading sections of High Treason 2 lately.  I find it interesting.
Livingston adds much to my knowledge and I think sets the record straighter
on the controversies in the medical evidence.

I make a distinction between attacking the message and attacking the 
messenger.  Livingston seems to do a lot of the latter, much to his
discredit.  He also attacks Garrison and Stone.  I'm generally left with
less respect as a result of the attacks.  If Garrison was so clearly a 
schlong, then his schlongy behaviour ought to speak for itself to 
reasonable people.  Just need to point out the silliness, wherever it is
silly and leave Garrison alone.  People know.

Both Groden and Richard Sprague have a similar intensity to them that
seems to get in the way of their respective messages.  As someone who
frequently gets in the way of his own message, I find it easy to 
understand, so I have a tendency to just move right to the data to see
if it has any value and not get too caught up in the personalities.  
Silly people are still capable of telling the truth from time to time.

On behalf of both Groden and Sprague, though, I would say that their
intensity comes from giving a damn.  It makes it easier to forgive.
I have checked many of Sprague's facts and they check out, despite the
fact that Sprague sometimes writes like a fanatic.  Groden seems to 
be the same way.

Paul Collacchi

PS  The idea of dummying up a few photos and then submitting them to
the committee of "experts" to verify just how good the experts are at
detecting fakes is a great idea.  If the HSCA was going to use experts
as a sort of detection device, then they needed to calibrate the device
to see if, in fact, it was accurate.  Instead, the HSCA simply relied
on the the 'emporer's new clothes' effect and ASSUMED that photographic
experts could and would correctly detect fakes.  If true, I find it
ironic and pleasing that Groden was the only 'detector' that passed
the detection test.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
From: mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Subject: Re: Oswald's Photograph
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Applied Upyerstemmatey Corp
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:04:00 GMT

david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes...
>(Mitchell S Todd) writes:
>|(Paul Collacchi) writes...
>||(Mitchell S Todd) writes:

>|||| 	Yes, but their conclusion is clear: they found no evidence of
>|||| 	fakery in the photos. That is, there is no evidence that the
>|||| 	photos are fakes.

>||This leap of faith, from "an expert says that...." to "it is true that ..."
>||is what I call the "emporer's new clothes effect."...

>|	The HSCA Photoanalysis panel's detailed report is available
>|	to anyone who wants to see it. The statements of Jack White,
>|	Malcom Thompsen, Robert Groden,

>Groden is an *expert* who does indeed claim the photos are fakes. And also he
>claims that the HSCA did not let him present his evidence, and did not
>do a correct job in analyizing the evidence. In a mock test before the
>photographic experts, only Groden had a 100% record in detecting known
>fake photographs!

	So far as I have seen, the 100% accuracy is only Groden's claim.
	I know people who are photography professionals, a few of whom
	occaisionally delve into photoanalysis. None of them have heard
	of Groden outside of the JFK assassination. That doesn't mean
	that Groden isn't some sort of photography expert, but it
	probably indicates that Groden isn't as famous in photography
	circles as his followers claim.
	
	I've seen Groden's analysis of the CE133 series of photographs,
	along with the HSCA report. Groden makes great fuss over shadow
	angles, even after the HSCA has shown that there is no problem
	with them using vanishing point analysis. Further, Groden also
	makes a big deal that Malcom Thompsen claimed that the photos
	were obvious fakes. Thompsen deferred to the HSCA report,
	in effect retracting his claims of forgery, a decade before
	_High Treason_. Groden, being on the HSCA staff and having
	read the report, *has* to know this. In general, I wonder
	about Groden's credibility, something I share with (at least)
	David Lifton. 
	
	So far, Robert Groden, if indeed he is a true expert, is the
	only one, out of many, who has found evidence of fakery in
	the photographs. 
	                                |  
		              \ | /	 
                               \|/
_________________________   ---(0)---   ______________________________________
\__                      \___/~/|\~\___/                              _______/
  \__ mst4298@zeus.tamu.edu / / | \ \\ 	      Ambiguity is the      ______////
    \__ Mitchell S Todd    /    |    \\   Devil's tetherball     ______////
      \___________________/           \\____________________________////
         \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/_____________\\\///////////////////////////
                           /////\\\\\\\\\\\
From: petrov@tfs.com (George Petrov)
Subject: Re: The Mary Eno Pinchot Meyer story (relations with JFK + Timmy Leary)
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:53:33 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.151010.25846@crd.ge.com> saltzman@crd.ge.com writes:
>In article <CRATHBUN.92Jul28185731@dante.nmsu.edu>, crathbun@nmsu.edu (Chriss Rathbun) writes:
>>re: kennedy
>>actually kennedy was an idiot!
>>he was a power crazed, sex fiend(guess he wasn't all bad),
>>meglomaniacal fool who brought the world to the brink of nuclear
>>anhilation several times with his grandstanding politics designed to
>>make him look good regardless of the threat to peace he caused.
>> 
>yeh, ok, and maybe so, but...
>what does that have to do with issues associated with his death
>and the subsequent coverup by elements of the federal government?

	Well, it MAY have something to do with Mare Meyer's death,
	though.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: The Other Rifles on the Scene (JFK)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:56:38 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy.jfk

According to dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott):
>[JFK discussion]

Please do NOT crosspost JFK discussion to alt.conspiracy.  Thank you.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
From: indiana@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: "Supersecret" Republican summer camp acc. to Karen Feld
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:51:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: ac.1992Jul23.205125.6636
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

From Sue Tonia,via Indiana--
Detroit CBS:Joan Rivers,Thursday,July 23/92:
   Karen Feld,Capital Connections (sic): Well, George Bush couldn't go this
summer, but Richard Nixon went to summer camp and it's not the kind of summer
camp that I went to, and not the kind of summer camp Chelsea Clinton just went
to but this is a supersecret place for male elite.   It's called Bohemian Grove G                ve and Bush usually goes, but he caY)7=.            
and Bush usually goes, but he can't go while he's President.   Kissinger goes,
and Nixon, and it's in the middle of a redwood forest about 70 miles north of
San Francisco, but these guys get there and there's separate camps, and
Kissinger is in the most prestigious, that's called "Mandalay".   Bush belongs
to a camp called "Hillbillies".   When he goes, he shares, you know, a cabin
with Walter Cronkite.
   Rivers: And what do they do ?
   Feld: Well, they do all sorts of, there's all kinds of stories. Nobody's
allowed in, but they're pagan rituals.  And they dress in long red robes, and
burn effigies to supposedly leave their day-to-day problems behind.
   Rivers: Richard Nixon ? ? ?
   Feld: Richard Nixon.
   Rivers: Walter Cronkite ? ? ?
   Feld: Every Republican president since Calvin Coolidge has been there."
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries)
Subject: mac hypercard stack with JFK conspiracy stuff (incl. Zfilm)
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht,  The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:48:48 GMT

Recently, I got a Macintosh hypercard stack, with a lot of text,
photographs, two soundbits and a part of the zapruder film. It's
called "11/22/63 Extra!". According to the blurb I may give it away
freely (it's everyware), but not distribute it by way of BBS or so. 
If you're interested let me know. A mac with at least a 86020 and a few
megs seems to be necessary.

sjoerd@fysae.fys.ruu.nl

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Sjoerd C. de Vries                            | If all else fails |
| Utrecht Biophysics Research Institute         | we can whip the   |
| Dept. of Medical and Physiological Physics    | horses' eyes      |
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:2646 alt.conspiracy:9353 sci.skeptic:13137 misc.legal:14728
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Oswald's Request for a Laywer (JFK)
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:40:43 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1992Jul23.015104.5922@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>, dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
> The point was that he was grilled without a lawyer despite his repeated
> requests for one. Whether he would have been convicted or not based on
> the interrogation doesn't matter as he was murdered before that could happen.

He probably would have been convicted.  If he were still alive (I
think that the death penalty was legal then) in the mid-sixties
though, he might very well have gotten a new trial with a lot of
evidence supressed.  === Al Sparks
From: judson@watnxt2.ucr.edu (Michael Judson)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Assassination hour
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:04:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.113946.21384@i2unix.dist.unige.it>  
priotti@torino.maraut.it (Enrico Priotti) writes:
> How do we know that J.F.K.'s assassination occurred
> *exactly* at 12:30 p.m.?

Why is this relevant?  Does it change anything?  And don't you think that
with so mant witnesses there would be at least one who would have the
correct time.  Furthermore, why would anyone want to give a false time
as to the assassination.
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: How many stairwells in the TSDB? (JFK)
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:08:19 GMT
Reply-To: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technologies, Mt. View, California.

In article <schuck.712433662@sfu.ca>, schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce
Jonathan Schuck) writes:
|>  
|> That makes Oswalds statement that he came up a different staircase
|> [the one that only went up to the 2nd floor] and entered the lunchroom
|> much more likely.

In "The Conspiracies:  Dallas and Beyond" by Hoch and Scott appears an
article written by Roffman entitled "The Alibi".  I don't know if this
information was included in "Presumed Guilty" or not, but, at the risk
of rehashing old news....

There were two doors between Baker's position and the lunch room, the
lunchroom door and another door which was an exit to the long corridor
which led to the lunchroom (to the right through the lunchroom door)
or the back stair case and elevators (to the left out the "corridor" 
door.)  A (bad) map is shown below.


     --------------xxxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx---------------------------
     |      
     | (Stairwell)   (Elevators)    
     |
     |
     |                
     |    Baker     /-------|---------------------|
     |             /        d                     |
     |            W         d            O        |
     |           /          d                     |
     |          |           d  Lunchroom          |
     |          |            ----------------------
     |          |           |                                      Houston
                |           |
                |           |
                |           |
                  Corridor



                     Elm street direction                     

   O = Oswald
   d = lunchroom door (open)
   W = small portal window in corridor door (closed).


Baker told the WC that when he got outside of the "corridor" door, already 
closed or just closing, glanced through the portal window and caught
a glimpse of Oswald who he then accosted in the lunchroom.

Roffman goes through the geometry of positions visible on the corridor side
of the corridor door from Trudy's position and shows that had Oswald come
from the Stairwell or the Elevators (rather than down the corridor) and gone
straight into the lunchroom, Baker would NOT have been able to see
him through the portal window.  Baker could only have caught a glance at Oswald
if Oswald had come down the corridor.  According to Roffman, this "proves"
that Oswald did NOT come from rear stairs and must have come down the
corridor.

Roffman did not mention that Oswald had stated this, and so it's
interesting that you bring it up.

Paul Collacchi 
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:9255 alt.conspiracy.jfk:2590 talk.politics.misc:34888 alt.politics.elections:8684
From: dos@major.panix.com (Dave O'Shea)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Clinton
Date: 21 Jul 92 03:37:31 GMT
Organization: Surely you jest

dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:

> In article <Zc72NB1w165w@major.panix.com> dos@major.panix.com (Dave O'Shea) w
> >dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
> >
> >>
> >> Concerning this new Clinton guy who might beat Bush at the election:
> >>
> >> Does anyone know his background? Is he clean? (ie. untainted by CIA influe
> >
> >Clean? He's a politician. "Clean politician" is a null statement. He just
> >shovels a different brand of horse manure than Bush.
> >
> 
> I guess what the question is getting at is: will we get more mileage on
> discovering the truth behind JFK, if Clinton gets into power? Or will he be j
> as obsfurscating as Bush?

Hey, in between covering up the sandanistas, iran-contra, watergate, 
oppressing minorites, keeping JFK and Elvis dead, november surprises, and 
buying S&L's, do you think Bush has time to help out the illumina.. er, 
JFK "researchers"?

> 
> When Carter was in power, why didn't conspiracy researchers get more
> cooperation?

('cause it's a CONSPIRACY, bud! They're all out to get you! LOOK OUT! 
There's one behind you! And it's Jim Morrison, no, wait, it's the 
sandanistas, with an October Surprise cake!)

--
55: It's not a good idea - it's just the law.
The country needs them more than ever: Bill 'n' Opus in '92!
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk,misc.legal
From: sue@blues.East.Sun.COM (Sue Haley {AISG/Admin NC})
Subject: Re: Physical Evidence: The Limo (JFK)
Reply-To: sue@blues.East.Sun.COM (Sue Haley {AISG/Admin NC})
Organization: Zman
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 16:16:10 GMT

It is interesting that you bring this up.  I am in the process of writing
a book involving cover-up in a small southern town.  This specific subject
of doing away with physical evidence has been a real problem for my
investigation.

The time period corresponds with JFK and specifically the removing of a car
involved in a fatal accident.  It would seem that in the 60's laws where not
as strict as they are today, especially when it comes to removing evidence.

for instance in South Carolina the coroner was not required to do reports or
perform examinations of the bodies if a fatal car accident occurred. 
Eye witness accounts were used.  I read one article that a next door
neighbor said he "found the man dead" The coroner wrote on the death
certificate "Neighbor found man dead" in the spot for "cause of death".  

What I'm getting at is the law was so different in the 60's.  By todays
standards a person would be grossly violating law by removal or
upsetting evidence of any kind.

  
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: mwlucas@vela.acs.oakland.edu ( )
Subject: Re: Posting JFK stuff here? Why?
Organization: Oakland UUniversity, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:34:02 GMT

In article <2A6EA9D1.8AFE@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to bsou@cs.arizona.edu (Brandon S. Ou):
>>I don't receive ...jfk, so I have to post it here.  :-)
>
>If you didn't receive talk.abortion, would you post abortion
>discussion to alt.conspiracy, too?!
>
>Talk to your administrator about getting a.c.jfk.  In the meantime,
>_please_ don't cross-post inappropriately.  DEREK, THIS MEANS YOU.

Unfortunately, someone "upstream" of us has decided that they don't want
to carry alt.c.jfk.  Obviously part of the WC conspiracy, in my opinion.
Of the groups that are left, this is the most appropriate place to
post/read these items.

-- 
Michael Lucas				mwlucas@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: hanlon@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Casey Hanlon (SVER))
Subject: Iran Contra
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 28 Jul 1992 11:47 EST  

Bob Bernstein writes:
>genocidal war against the poor...

Since when is arming native americans that have been forcibly relocated
by a government that came to power by force of arms a genocidal war
against the poor.  Talk about a selective memory.  And since when
has congress been intrested in upholding the constitution.  Lining their
own pockets and gathering more power to themselves is more like it.

So you want to talk about scum.  Lets take a look at the presidential
candidate for the democrats.  Received his draft notice, refused to report
for induction, used political friends to get into ROTC when he should
have been thrown in jail with the other draft doggers.  After all they
violated the law didn't they.  When the draft lottery was institued
and our dear billy boy received a high draft number, sufficiently high
as to insure he wouldn't be drafted, he once again pulled strings and
was able to get out of his ROTC commitment.  Then he wrote the now
famous letter to his former ROTC commander thanking him for saving his
life and preserving his future political options.  What a scum bag!
And now he aspires to be the commander in chief of the armed forces
of this nation.  

Casey (I think I'll vote for Andre Marrou) Hanlon

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy