HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ortcm@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (thomas.mcguigan)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:42:41 GMT

In article <1ii068INN68e@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> young@cs.rose-hulman.edu writes:
>Try the book on Quaker worship by George Gorman - I think the title goes  
>something like "The ?Amazing? ?? of Quaker Worship"

The Amazing Fact of Quaker Worship.

An excellent book.  If your local bookstore can't get it for you, call the
Friend's General Conference Bookstore, they have an 800 number.  If people are 
interested I will look it up and post it.

Tom
From: prh2s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Patrick Ray Harrison)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Inner Light
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:43:10 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

Could anyone recommend some reading on Quaker meditative practices
to an inquiring novice?  I am interested in practical, as well as
analytical/historical materials.

Patrick Harrison
prh2s@faraday.clas.virginia.edu
From: bloom@tarkin.enet.dec.com (ELBERT Bloom)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Some questions about Quakerism
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:27:01 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



   I am  not  a  member  of  the Society of Friends.  However, I have been
   following this news conference now for several weeks.  I have also been
   reading articles written by Quakers, including George Fox, etc.

   From my  understanding  most Quakers consider themselves Christian, but
   do  not  adhere  to any fixed creed.  I would like to hear from some of
   you Quakers regarding what your beliefs do encompass such as:

   1) Do you believe the Bible to be the invarient "Word of God"? Are
      there any exceptions to the rule?

   2) Do different Quakers have differing opinions on the meanings
      of the Bible?

      I.E. Trinity Doctrine vs Non-Trinity Doctrine
           Who goes to Heaven? Is there a Hell? Who goes there?
           Is there any concept such as eternal life here on earth?
           Will non-Christians who live a proper life also reap a
              Heavenly reward?

   3) Is it even important what one's view of the Bible is so long as
      he/she obeys the one commandment; that is to Love God and your
      neighbor with all your heart, soul ...... etc.

   4) What is the Quaker view on smoking? on drinking?

   5) Are all Quakers pacifists?

   6) Can one be a Quaker, but not necessarily conform to all the tenets
      of the faith?
From: Julie Heynssens (julieh@noao.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Friendly Thoughts No. 2
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:01:38 GMT
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA
Originator: julieh@ursa.tuc.noao.edu

The boy grew up to be an outstanding member of the community.  When asked he
would tell of the turning point in his life, which was the night he went to
rob the Jay household.  Up until that point, he felt that no one cared for
him and in return he cared for no one.  After that night, he knew that he had
at least one Friend who cared for him; the favor was returned multiple times,
to many people throughout his life.

Julie
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:40:39 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1993Jan12.060638.4351@athena.mit.edu> redingtn@athena.mit.edu (Norman H Redington) writes:
>Friend Valenza is not a pretender, but he seems to me mistaken about
>the nature of the reality with which he is in contact.
>
\\\\\\
I regret using this derogatory epithet - I wanted to defend the name
and faith of early Friends and modern Quaker Christians against usurpation.
These are faithful Christians - they are not something else. To pretend
that they are not what they are - is self-deception and self-aggrandizement,
as if we are to be ashamed of Christ because we repudiate the bad faith
and incomprehension of other, who say they are Christians.

It is an awkward position - I know that some of my close friends (members)
left Meetings, not because of moral or theological disputes, but because
Meetings became alienated from Christianity, outnumbered by others, most
of whom are fuzzy well-intentioners. I joined another Church, which is
well-known to be a large very leaky boat, with broken sails, in a stormy
world. But there is room for many faithful Christians. In my experience,
having attending Meetings all over this country, it is often the Christians
who huddle together, but give warmth and light to the rest of the Meeting.
(Many are aging now.)

>
>Friend Harwood rightly defends the Christian message of early Quakerism
>and the existential reality of the Inner Light but I am not clear that
>his appeals to past authority and tradition speak to Valenza, whose
>questions are quite natural. What about the Jericho massacre? What
>about creationism? Seventeenth century answers will not suffice.
>
>The problem is that, as the Orthodox have always taught, these questions
>have no logical answers; the answers depend on who is asking, and why.
>George Fox, asked about (I am paraphrasing from memory, so let us say)
>the battle of Jericho, replied "Why do you ask, when the Jericho of your
>heart has not fallen?" (I am not saying that Valenza's has not, let me
>hasten to add, but my own has not.) I hope nothing I have said offends
>either of these Friends.
\\\\\\\
I believe God did not command people to kill their enemies, because this
contradicts the Gospel. I do not believe the Bible is historically,
morally, or theologically inerrant. (An historical error is even attributed
to Jesus himself in one Gospel, perhaps corrected in others.) But the
basis of our faith is God's revelation of Christ, who as Paul says, shines
light into out hearts, light of revelation of Christ Jesus. So I believe
that the Gospel of Jesus is essentially true, as far as are faith is
concerned: we should live as Jesus did.
>
>May Jesus Christ, Light of Light, True God of True God, bring us
>all into the true Day!
\\\\\\
Amen.
D.H.
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Off to First Day School
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 18:43:08 GMT

It's bright and sunny and I'm off to meeting.
San Francisco now has people participate in First Day School
all month and then not for a year, so this is my second week.

At first I was pretty nervous about kids and all, but they're
cool.

.community.harmony.equality.simplicity.

-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
 
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Re: Short List for the Seeker
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:22:23 GMT

This (these) bibliographies would be great for a FAQ.

Any other suggestions.  I archived some of the early
flurry of posts here but not all.  

-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
 
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: hamid@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Hamio Reza Mohammadi Daniali)
Subject: Demonstration in Montreal 
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:16:04 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In The Name of Allah, The Beneficient, The Merciful

STOP

-Massacres in Bosnia

-Deportation of Palastinians

-Destruction of Mosques

Demonstration will be held on:

Friday January 15th, 1:30 pm

Gathering in the front of Fatima Mosque
2020 st. Dominique , Corner of Ontario

For more information call:
(514) 962-2777
(514) 489-3814
(514) 344-3043
(514) 344-3432

Organized by:

Muslim communities of Montreal
From: ejordan@sol.UVic.CA (Eric  Jordan)
Subject: electronic texts
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:04:13 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Hello all,
	I have a friend who is looking for Hadiths collections, 
(in particular the Bukhari and Muslim books) that are in an 
electronic form. The language could arabic, english or even french.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Since I don't regularly read this group, could you please email me directly?


	Thanks in advance,

		Eric Jordan
		ejordan@nero.uvic.ca

P.S. Please excuss any cross-postings.....

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: hhasan@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Hussain T. Hasan)
Subject: Non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:54:45 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Assalaam-o-Alaikum

I was recently asked the question given below by an American friend who had
heard it from somebody.

"Is is true that non-muslims are not allowed to practice their religion 
(regardless which) in Saudi Arabia."

I told the person that I highly doubt it, as Islam is very tolerant of other
religions, but I was not sure so I decided to write it on the net.

Please reply either to me directly, or to the newsgroup.

Thanks,

Hussain T. Hasan

pppp   eeee  aaaaa  ccccc  eeee
p   p  e     a   a  c      e
pppp   eeee  aaaaa  c      eeee
p      e     a   a  c      e
p      eeee  a   a  ccccc  eeee

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan)
Subject: Re: Adam's children, Daajal, Tabligh
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:49:44 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1id9r1INNvf@life.ai.mit.edu> inf.rl.ac.uk@ncar.UCAR.EDU. ( (Khalid Akram (student-david;until 31/12/92))) writes:
>   I am trying to piece together parts of the early history of Islam.
>   Please excuse any naive questions which may show my ignorance.
>
>   Q1. Eve was made from Adams rib bone; they had children. Whom did the
>   children marry?? Did one of the brothers kill the other?? What is the
>   islamic version of this?

	There is no reference to Eve being made from Adam's "rib" in
the Quran.  This has probably crept into Islamic tradition from the
Biblical creation story in Genesis.  Or rather, from one of the two
contradictory accounts in Genesis, since one of the Biblical stories
also makes no mention of the rib.  Similarly, the Quran does not
mention the murder of Abel by Cain.  Eve (or Hawwah, as she is known
in the Islamic tradition) is also never mentioned by name in the Quran.
	Your question about the children is a good one, though.  There
are all lots of problems which arise, as Islam does not allow marriage
between brother and sister.  In fact, this may be evidence that the
creation story in the Quran does not refer to material creation (that
is, it may not actually be about "Adam, the first man").  It may
simply be a symbolic story about all humans and their struggle between
good and evil.  After all, "Adam" means "of the earth", and the Quran
states that all humans are created of earth.
	So there may or may not have been a "first man" named Adam, in
which case the historical truth of the other Genesis stories you refer
to are questionable.

>   Q2. I recently read "Daajal" by Ahmad Thompson; in one paragraph he states
>   that a persons going to hell or heaven has already been decided *before*
>   they are born (!!). If this is the case then what is the point of
>   *trying* to do good or bad if it is *already* decided where one
>   will go?  Please shed some light on this.

	Ever hear of "soft determinism"?  It's what Western philosophy
calls the viewpoint expressed in Islam.  Everything must be
predetermined, as God's knowledge cannot be limited by time.  However,
since humans do not have the foreknowledge that God does, and from
their perspective they make their own decisions, they are responsible
for their actions.

farewell,
zeeshan

OCMR Box 1529, Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio 44074. Phone:(216)775-6447
	"I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!" -- Linus van Pelt





Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: inf.rl.ac.uk@ncar.UCAR.EDU \(\) (Khalid Akram \(student-david;until 31/12/92\))
Subject: Allah's knowledge (previously Adams's children, Daajal, Tabligh ...)
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:26:53 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

>>
>>	Ever hear of "soft determinism"?  It's what Western philosophy
>>calls the viewpoint expressed in Islam.  Everything must be
>>predetermined, as God's knowledge cannot be limited by time.  However,
>>since humans do not have the foreknowledge that God does, and from
>>their perspective they make their own decisions, they are responsible
>>for their actions.
>>

Yes, I agree, Allah's knowledge cannot be limited by space time.
That is not the issue.
But, the paradox remains. Allah already knows which of us will go to
hell or heavan.
As I have heard said"

	"The ink is dry, the book is closed."

We are already destined to go to one or other. It is WRITTEN that we shall go
to hell or heaven. It was already WRITTEN that I would be having these thoughts.
Thus how can any actions we do change our going to hell/heaven??? -> since
it is already written where we will go!!!

Therefore what was the point of bringing the whole universe into being
if Allah already knew what was going to happen to each and every particle??


>>farewell,
>>zeeshan
>>
>>OCMR Box 1529, Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio 44074. Phone:(216)775-6447
>>	"I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!" -- Linus van Pelt


Khalid

*===============================================================*
# Khalid Akram (Lahori)		 #
# ka@uk.ac.rl.inf		 #  still thinking ....
# University of West England	 #
# Rutherford Appleton Laboratory #
# 0235-445867			 #
*===============================================================*
From: inf.rl.ac.uk@ncar.UCAR.EDU. ( (Khalid Akram (student-david;until 31/12/92)))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Adam's children, Daajal, Tabligh
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:19:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: life.1iplrqINN5ec
Reply-To: ka@hardy.inf.rl.ac.uk
Organization: SERC Rutherford Appleton Laboratories
NNTP-Posting-Host: geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu


In article 1ikotdINNbek@life.ai.mit.edu, ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie () writes:
>>A teacher can tell to a certain degree of accuracy which students will
>>fail in the exam, but he will not desist helping any of them at any time
>>before the exam, and he will do perfect marking for their papers.

A number of people have tried to use these parallel story examples to
try and explain the concept to me. But the above is not an accurate
portrayal; because Allah knows 100% accurately which of his pupils will
fail and which will pass -> what purpose setting the exam therefore??

>>Perhaps your underlined statement is not accurate . It should be "known"
>>instead of "decided". The mercy of Allah is given to every one, and
>>every one is given the free will to do whatever he likes to do, and that
>>any deed of even an atom weight will be measured and added to his
>>balance.  

Once again, even if you replace "decided" with "known", how does this help?
It is *known* who will go to heaven and hell, thus what can we do to prevent
our going to one or the other when it is already *known* by Allah what we shall
do and therefore where we shall go.

>>>Q3. On the night of power (worth 1000 months) the angels come down and write
>>>down the names of all who will be born in the coming year and all who will die.
>>>This is what I have heard. BUT, if a persons time of death is already determined
>>>at time of birth (or conception) then why do the angels have to come down again
>>>to find out?? What sources say that they come down?
>>
>>Where did you hear that ?
>>

I heard this from Tablighi brothers.

>>Ahmed I. El-Habbash,

Salam,

Khalid Akram
Uni of West England.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: spectre@uiuc.edu (Ian)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Is it okay under Orthodox Islamic teaching to kill non-Muslim dakwa people?
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:24:39 GMT
Reply-To: spectre@uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
NNTP-Posting-Host: geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Asalamulaikum, Nicholas Jodar.

Thank you for your detailed answer to my query. My suspicions that the
Saudi government was not acting in accordance with true Islamic
teaching is reinforced.

I hope for a day when the vast majority of Muslims become tolerant
towards people of other religions. I think it is possible -- European
Christianity used to be just as intolerant, but that has mostly
changed. Just as the Bible itself doesn't advocate intolerance, it
seems like the Qur'an also agrees.

Wassalam,

Ian
-- 
---                                      Xtrek is lovely, dark and deep.
God is gracious = Yahya = Yochanan =        But I have promises to keep,
Johannes = John = Jean = Jan = Ian     And megs to write before I sleep,
Internet: spectre@uiuc.edu             And megs to write before I sleep.
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Allah's knowledge (previously Adams's children, Daajal, Tabligh ...)
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:36:23 GMT
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1iq45oINNcr8@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:
>
>Consider the case of a God that knows everything.  Now how how do you
>know whether something is going to happen or not?  You do it by
>figuring out what might happen.  Basically, you run a simulation.
>....
>In other words, the world we are living in is the simulation necessary 
>for God to figure out whether we are good or bad.
>...
>Disclaimer: This is just a bit of dime store philosophy.  It has
>nothing to do with Islam really; it is not central to the faith.
>It is just speculation.

Dear Basalat, assalamu alaikum,

I think you are making a *grave* mistake here, and I'm glad you made the
disclaimer.  God is Perfect.  He has Perfect Knowledge.  It does not befit 
Him to need a simulation to "figure out something."  He does not figure out 
at all.  You are mistaking what we, the imperfect and fallible humans, do and
know for what the Perfect does and knows.  Humans need a simulation only
because they are not sure about their knowledge.

I think one possible reason why God brought about the universe even though
He knows everything in advance is that *we* don't know in advance.  We'd 
question His justice if He put some of us in hell and others in paradise
without our actually having a real chance to do whatever we are doing now
and to follow whatever path we are following in this life.  Even if a teacher
knew which students would pass and which would fail a course, it'd be fair 
to still administer the tests.

Salaam, Ahmad
From: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Forbidden Food
Summary: I want to clarify this issue
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:00:58 GMT
Reply-To: shamshoo@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

Dear Muslims,

I have recently gone through the Quran to settle the issue of meats ie. beef,
lamb, and chicken and any other non-haraam animal food, and have have found
on over eight occasions the message about the method of killing the animals in
question mentioned above.

On all times, the message says, donot eat of meats that are unclean and unwholesome, and donot eat of food that is killed in the name of any other diety then
Allah. 

As far as I know from talking with FDA and Pakistanis who work with FDA in the
meat quality control areas, that no other name is invoked when the animals
such as chicken, beef, and lambs are slaughthered and they are slaughtered in
totally hygenic standards espcially much higher ones than what Pakistanis eat
every day in Pakistan, where no one questions the issue of proper Hallal etc
at all. 

So, my question is for people who are both VERY consicous of the Hallal issue,
even though they donot practice the FARZ or the MUST areas of Islam, ie
daily prayer 5 times a day, fasting 30 days in Ramadaan, Charity or Zakaat,
and Haj or Pilgrimage to Mecca, and show no visible sign in Aaqirat or
Day of Judgement, why is it that YOU make this the MOST IMPORTANT part of
the daily life ?

The reason I ask is due to some very disturbing trend of new Muslim students
who come here from "Islamic" countries, and starve themselves due to ignorance
and misguidance from self proclaimed mullahs here in the U.S.


Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: inf.rl.ac.uk@ncar.UCAR.EDU. ( (Khalid Akram (student-david;until 31/12/92)))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Adam's children, Daajal, Tabligh
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:41:05 GMT
Reply-To: ka@hardy.inf.rl.ac.uk
Organization: SERC Rutherford Appleton Laboratories
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu



Hi,

I am trying to piece together parts of the early history of Islam.
Please excuse any naive questions which may show my ignorance.

Q1. Eve was made from Adams rib bone; they had children. Whom did the
children marry?? Did one of the brothers kill the other?? What is the
islamic version of this?

Q2. I recently read "Daajal" by Ahmad Thompson; in one paragraph he states
that a persons going to hell or heaven has already been decided *before*
they are born (!!). If this is the case then what is the point of *trying* to
do good or bad if it is *already* decided where one will go? Please shed some
light on this.

Q3. On the night of power (worth 1000 months) the angels come down and write
down the names of all who will be born in the coming year and all who will die.
This is what I have heard. BUT, if a persons time of death is already determined
at time of birth (or conception) then why do the angels have to come down again
to find out?? What sources say that they come down?

Q4. I have come across the Tabligh movement (HQ Raiwand, Lahore, Pakistan).
I know that they do the work of Dawah all across the globe. What do other
brothers and sisters think of their method of work and about them in general??

Any information from more learned brothers and sisters (than I) would be most
appreciated.

Jazakallah.
Allah Hafiz.

Khalid Akram

*===============================================================*
# Khalid Akram (Lahori)		 #
# ka@uk.ac.rl.inf		 #  still thinking ....
# University of West England	 #
# Rutherford Appleton Laboratory #
# 0235-445867			 #
*===============================================================*
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam