From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Hemp legalization arguments
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:09:25 GMT

deeb@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Stephen Humble) writes:
: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez about antibiotic-resistant bacteria:
: > And, if they do become resistant that easily then they lose the
: > resistance quickly when the antibiotic is no longer used on them.
: 
: Why?  I think what happens is, if you expose a bacterial culture to
: antibiotics, most of the bacteria die but the survivors reproduce at a
: more-or-less normal rate and build up a substantial population
: quickly, passing on the genes for resistance to that antibiotic.  Is
: this wrong?

Nope - it just means that the bacteria is a fast mutating strain.

: When the antibiotic goes away, what makes non-resistant bacteria wipe
: out the resistant ones?  If even a few resistant ones survive, their
: advantage will return when the antibiotic is reapplied.

If the bacteria is fast mutating then, when exposed to a different
antibiotic than the one they are resistant to, they will tend to lose
the previous resistance - as they develop a resistance to the new
antibiotic.

: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
: > : What about drugs that might be used recreationally, but are much more
: > : toxic than pot or opiates?  Should I be able to buy large amounts of
: > : scopolamine or phenobarbital over the counter?
: > 
: > Like alcohol or nicotine? You tell us.
: 
: I can easily buy a lethal dose of alcohol, but drinking all of it
: would take some determination.  A lethal dose of phenobarbital isn't
: even a mouthful; it's also smaller in terms of how many effective
: doses it is.
: 
: I don't have a good answer.  At the very least, I'd like to see
: packages of recreational drugs plastered with warnings about known
: hazards.

I would like all drugs to contain a brochure - including prescription
drugs. How often has your doctor prescribed an antibiotic - and given
you directions on using it - but not told you the chances of serious side
effects occurring? 

: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
: > Why shouldn't you be able to buy large amounts of any drug - for
: > your own use? If that use kills you, that is your right and problem
: > - as long as you don't endanger others.
: 
: I'm not worried about people intentionally killing themselves.  I'm
: worried about people who just want to have a good time but hurt or
: kill themselves because they picked the wrong drug, the wrong time to
: take it, got confused and took a little too much, etc.  Some drugs are
: very "forgiving" in that sense; others aren't.

Which is why I am all for truthful education in school - starting as soon
as children are able to understand. The education would include the reasons
why people take drugs and the effects of the various drugs - both positive
and negative. 

: Ideally, I think I'd like to see some non-coersive measures to
: encourage people to avoid more-dangerous drugs in favor of
: less-dangerous ones.  (Can you tell I'm more a Socialist than a
: Libertarian? :-)

How about education? It would be coersive, in that it would be required.
However, no one would have to use the information.

: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
: > What is the difference between "reasonable doses" and "any exposure
: > to the pure substance"?
: 
: For most recreational drugs, nothing.  OTOH some drugs are potent
: enough that it's not trivial to avoid getting dosed.  LSD is an
: example, but the LD50 for LSD is high enough that people exposed to
: LSD just trip instead of dying.  Goodman&Gilman describes the use of
: sufentanyl as a surgical anesthetic at doses of 5-10 micrograms/kg.  I
: assume that means I'm in deep shit if I absorb 350-700 micrograms and
: there's no anesthesiologist around to make sure I keep breathing.
: Unfortunately, that's close to what I might expect to absorb through
: casual contact or carelessness.

Depends on the mode of anesthesia. It may, or may not, be a hazard. 
What are the effects of that 350-700 ug dose? Is it deep sedation with
breathing suppression? 

: Maybe this is a red herring and no one will ever want to buy a drug
: that has to be diluted 10000:1 before use.  I realize now that I had
: an unstated assumption that any drug will be present in quantities of
: a few grams instead of a few doses.

No problem with buying diluted drugs - it is done all the time. No one
complains. For example, lsd is highly diluted - so are all the over the
counter and prescription drugs.

People are lazy. If they can get the drug in use-sized doses, they will
do so, even if it costs a bit more. Of course, there are some who will
just have to have larger and stronger doses - such suicidal action cannot
be prevented. You certainly can teach people about the hazards associated
with overdoses.

: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) sez:
: > : Finally (my favorite example!), what about drugs like diethyl ether?
: > : Plenty of people like the effects, it's relatively safe in terms of
: > : toxicity, but it's so flammable that most people don't have the
: > : facilities to handle it without risking being blown to bits.
: > 
: > Fine, as long as they are away from other people, and other peoples
: > properties.
: 
: I suspect the people who have to clean up the mess when something goes
: wrong (the fire department in this case) take a dim view of such
: things even when it's clear that no one else's person or property is
: in danger.  Isn't it in my interest to help people who provide me with
: a useful service?

Certainly - I would do so. There are many other chemicals that are  highly
flammable - although probably not nearly as much as the ethers. Every now
and then, someone blows themselves up or burns down their house through
misuse of those substances. Another reason for education - to reduce the
incidence of such accidents.

Why should the person who is going to use the ether responsibly be 
prohibited from doing so because there are fools who would not? How
are you going to determine whether the person is, or is not, capable
of using some particular drug in a non-dangerous manner? After you
make that determination, how are you going to determine that they are
actually going to use the drug responsibly?

Bill