From: russe@alyeska.EBay.Sun.COM (Russell Engle)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Hold'Em question
Followup-To: rec.gambling
Date: 6 Nov 1992 23:49:30 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: russe@alyeska.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: alyeska.ebay.sun.com

In article 1dcb4vINNb41@fido.asd.sgi.com, leej@diver.asd.sgi.com (Lee Jones) writes:
>I'm posing this question in a hold 'em context, but it's applicable in many
>poker situations.  The short question is: If you're holding a premium hand,
>but one that prefers play against few opponents, do you raise if there are
>already many callers in front of you?
>
>Suppose you are on the button in a limit hold 'em game, and find yourself
>holding pocket rockets.  Good.  But suppose there are five callers in front
>of you.  Bad.  The traditional wisdom is that you raise pre-flop with these
>big hands to thin the field.  You're not going to be thinning anything with
>a raise at this point.  In the games I normally play ($6-12 and $10-20) if
>the big blind looks down and sees two cards from the same deck, he's calling
>the raise.  Even forgetting about the big blind for a moment, all of the
>previous callers are going to call (you may even incite a raising war for
>which you really have no desire at this point).
>
>Of course, you're a big favorite over any *one* of the other players at this
>point, but your chances of beating them *all* are not good unless you help
>on the flop.   My new thinking: with four or more opponents, I'm inclined
>to smooth call.  If the flop comes off the way I'd like (I mean like a King
>high with the ranks spread), then you play it fast because you're going
>to get plenty of action from a King.  However, if there's a pair in the flop,
>and you've got 5-6 opponents, you are in deep doo-doo.  
>
>So, what's the net.thought on this?  I've read all the books multiple times,
>but I doubt Sklansky sees very many flops with 5-6 opponents.
>
>Regards, Lee

I personally would raise most of the time at this point for two reasons:

1.  To try to eliminate the small blind from the pot.
2.  To show strength.

When I do this, I am hoping for a re-raise.  Since five people are already
in the pot, I expect that a couple players with weak hands will not call
a double raise to see the flop.  This adds "dead" money to the pot.
However, in games against aggressive opponents where most pots are raised,
I almost always "limp-in" with rockets or Kings in a very early position
in order to put in the re-raise to get "dead" money in the pot.

Even though your point about being a big favorite over any *one* opponent
but not against *all* of them is true, you still have a greater chance
pre-flop to win the pot than anyone else.  Thus, you have a positive
expection by raising, since you'll get 6 to 1 on your raise when you
win (assuming no small blind), and you're chance of winning is greater
than 14.3% (1/7th).

Occasionally, I prefer to camouflage my hand by not raising.  This has the
distinct advantage on the flop wherein you have the opportunity to narrow
the field considerably by putting in a raise.  Normally, one of the six or
seven players ahead will bet the flop.  Unfortunately, however, when six
opponents see the flop, in my experience, I narrow the field down to me
and the player who has out-flopped my rockets (and maybe 1 or 2 others)!

I have found that when I raise pre-flop, the added pot size causes weak
players to stay in with any kind of draw, no matter how remote it is.
This is good as long as they don't get "lucky".
---

Russ Engle				Phone:	(510) 226-1100
Open Systems Consulting Group		Fax:	(510) 226-9290
PO Box 14860				Email:	osg!russ@Sun.COM
Fremont, CA  94539-1860

(All opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone, and I am *not*
 an employee of Sun Microsystems, Inc. [just a contractor])