HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar)
Subject: Re: Food Combining
Organization: UTCS Campus Access
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:57:53 GMT

In article <21891@optima.cs.arizona.edu> tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu writes:
# 
# Maybe it's time to make this a separate thread. Some general observations
# to start the 2nd half kick-off:
# 
# 1) The Diamonds are not the only people writing about food combining.
# 2) It is not a theory limited to vegetarian diets.

That's right, the idea behind food combining has been around for a long
time.  I'm somewhat nonplussed that educated and intelligent people
dismiss such things with such venom and alacrity. I look at the spirit of a
regimen and try not to criticise the details unless I know them
to be outright harmful.

Food combining is a very healthy way of eating, orders of magnitude better
than the SAD (Standard American Diet).  So what if the rule of eating melons
alone sounds strange?  What's it going to hurt?  Watermelon happens to bother
my stomach.  

I know that certain combinations definitly cause heartburn for me, and that's
enough.  Other combinations don't.  I eat cooked grains in the morning because
I work out for 2 hours before going to work -- fruit doesn't give me as much
energy as whole grains & soymilk.  I'd probably stick to fruit in the morning
if I didn't face two hours of exercise at 6am.

So I don't scoff at the natural hygenists, or the combinationists.  I know
they are much healthier than the people who do scoff at them.

Regards to all,
Tom
From: M21444@mwvm.mitre.org
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Purpose of sci.med.nutrition?
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:07:02 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102


 
Of course questions about the nutritional value of
vegetarian diets are pertinent to this group.  Why
wouldn't they be?  If anyone can answer the original
question, please do!  I'd be interested in a discussion
on this topic.
From: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu (Theron Friedman)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Food Combining
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:28:20 GMT
Reply-To: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu
Organization: U of Arizona, CS Dept, Tucson


Maybe it's time to make this a separate thread. Some general observations
to start the 2nd half kick-off:

1) The Diamonds are not the only people writing about food combining.
2) It is not a theory limited to vegetarian diets.

The stuff I read (long before FFL came out) postulated that improper
food combinations were "stressful", by which (among other things) they
meant that extra energy was used in the digestion & handling of waste
products, reducing the available energy for other (physiological) activities.
..... I think some people in the nutrition fringes at the time were also
musing that legumes were harder to digest in general, which might explain
why the Diamonds didn't include them in their original dietary plans.

This theory isn't supported by current research, of course, (which I assume
is a strong part of why Steve Dyer keeps saying it's "silly"), but that may
be more because no-one has yet thought to set up an appropriate experiment
than because it's totally invalid. Look at the changes that the last decade
have brought in our understanding of nutrition & what comprises an ideal
diet; today's "silly" theory _may_ be tomorrow's hot research topic (or,
of course, may still be silly forevermore).

I suspect that information here will remain anectdotal for some time yet
before anyone does a population analysis or controlled study, and we won't
see any re-examination of the biochemistry until someone has shown that
food combining does make a difference (as far as I can tell from the postings
all that is known is the basic mechanisms of digestion the various food
components. Have there been any experiments _looking for_ possible
interferences?)

(anectodal:) The person who introduced me to the combining theory had one of
the highest sustained daily energy levels I've ever seen. She said that it
was due to observing the food combining rules, and that she hadn't been anywhere
near as peppy before she switched her diet. She wasn't a faddy type, so I have
no reason to think she was distorting the truth. I tried it for a short
while and didn't notice any gain in my own energy levels, so dropped it.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Tumeric and Ginger
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:57:14 GMT

I understand that cardiologists are now treating post myocardial
infarct patients with the addition of a lipoxygenase inhibitor 
and a thromboxane synthetase inhibitor to the diet. 

This can be accomplished by using a teaspoon a day of the spice 
turmeric (a very potent lipoxygenase inhibitor, which prevents 
lipid peroxidation), as well as a half-teaspoon/day of ginger, a 
very potent thromboxane synthetase inhibitor.

It is of interest that tumeric, costing pennies, may be as 
effective as TPA, costing thousands of dollars.

Any comments?

__Bob Werman, M.D.
rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem


Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Subject: Re: Nutrition & Weight Training
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:57:46 GMT

In article <207@sftwks.UUCP> bradbury@sftwks.UUCP (Robert Bradbury) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.023401.18613@unlinfo.unl.edu> mgleason@cse.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) writes:
>>I've seen on various exercise shows like ESPN's Bodyshapers where physical
>>trainers claim that "Diet is half the battle" to gain strength and muscle
>>tone.  I'm a casual weight trainer who is skeptical that ingesting hoards
>>of weird vitamins and weight gain powder would be significantly more
>>effective than a normal, 4 food groups type of diet.
>>

Well, you actually didn't state that they were promoting ingestion of 
hoards of weird vitamins and weight gain powder, however the response
seems to indicate this.

Diet is (I find) *more* than half the battle, but my definition of diet
doesn't have to include supplementation.  Most people (including myself)
have lousy dietary habits to begin with, never mind for an athlete.
(Which includes weight training IMHO)  The more recent studies talk about
timing the ingestion of nutrient types for maximal uptake and utilization,
which would minimize "waistage :-)"...  This has nothing to do with 
supplementation.

I don't use supplements beyond a daily multi-vitamin.  I can't say that
I have made wonderful gains, but then my diet has remained questionable
to this day... It is improving now.. 

>>Has there been a study on this somewhere?  Like have one group of weight
>>trainers use vitamins/calorie powder, and another control group train on
>>a regular diet, and see how much strength each group gained over a set
>>period of time.
>
>I haven't seen any studies on this kind of thing though I suspect that
>they exist in the Journal of Nutrition or Int. J. Sports Medicine. 
>I have seen studies that indicate that weight training for the elderly
>is a very good thing.  They can make significant strength gains with
>little weight gain (increase the muscle to fat ratio) in relatively
>short periods of time.
>

Having mainstream scientists study this is a very recent phenomenon,
however I'm also sure that studies have been done.... you might have
to do some digging, though... and check the methods/assumptions closely..

[Rest of post deleted for brevity.]
Patrick
-- 
===========================| Land Line +1 403 286 9188
Patrick D. Buick EMT, EET  | Internet: buick%belay@uunet.uu.net
Belay Enterprises Inc.     | Internet: buickp@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...keyword!calgary!pixel!belay!buick
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 12:37:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Keywords: some people need LOTS of food energy


Thanks to Steve Dyer for once more demonstrating his dispassionate
analytic mind through the use of such terms of art as "looney." It's
a pleasure to participate in such a rational and civilized
discussion group that "has such creatures in it."

David
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: Diet Coke and Weight Loss (was Re: hypoglycemia)
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:24:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.003854.21046@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>He didn't say sucrose, he said sugar.  High fructose corn syrup
>certainly qualifies as sugar by any stretch of the imagination.

Not by any stretch. Chemically, yes of course. Bureaucratically?
In my dated Britannica, I find statistics for cane and beet sugar
only.  My almanac says 1989, refined sugar, 62.2 lbs/person.
The next line says "Corn sweeteners(dry weight) 69.7"!

For the record 89 88    87
Sugar        62.2 62   62.4
Corn         69.7 69.6 68.6

-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: pprun@augustit.uswc.uswest.com
Subject: Re: side effects of niacin
Organization: US WEST Information Technologies
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:22:49 GMT


>I was told that using Niacin would reduce my cholesterol level.  
>Whenever I use it, however, I break out in an incredible rash
>and feel flushed.  These sensations only last about an hour. 

>My question is this:  will these side-effects diminish with
>regular use?  I am using 500 mg tablets and have been told to
>use these twice a day.


Drinking a few glasses of water will help.  The side-effects did not
seem to diminish with time for me.  If you take one just before bed,
you'll probably be asleep before you feel the flushing.


Pete
pprun@lookout.mnet.uswest.com

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu (D.McAlpin)
Subject: Re: Annette is Right (was: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 09:38:35 CDT

In sci.med.nutrition, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
> This is not usually accurate. Most meat is "aged" for flavor. Aging
> is a polite way of saying the meat is left to putrefy, tenderizing
> it and giving it more "flavor." Unless one is eating fresh Kosher
> meat, one is likely to be ingesting massive amounts of putrefaction
> bacteria every time one eats meat--and I don't even want to think of
> those who like their meat rare or medium.
> Putrefaction bacteria are usually held in the colon of the animal
> by osmotic pressure, and when the animal is killed they saturate
> the cells of the meat, even before "hanging" or "aging."
> Then there's salmonella. According to the Department of Agriculture
> about 37% of chicken carcasses carry salmonella, roughly constant over
> a decade. Chickens are copraphagous, a polite way of saying they eat
> each others' droppings. During slaughtering the birds' entrails occasionally
 
> According to a Newsweek article, "There are simply too many opportunities
> for food to spoil, as every microbiologist has known since Pasteur" So
> much for Annette's textbooks.
 
      You obviously don't know the difference between organisms that cause
fermentation and those that produce toxins. Yeast, unless it has enspored,
cannot survive the pH that a healthy stomach reaches (a pH of 1.0- or,
for the chemically challanged, *way* acidic). Any fermentation takes place
in the small and large intestines. Since the intestines carry their *own*
bacteria, they are quite used to it (ever hear of E coli?).
Bacteria such as salmonella are called endotoxins, meaning that they carry
toxins within their cell walls, which are released on lysis (rupture of
the cell wall). With these bacteria you are actually  *poisoned*. These
toxins are absorbed almost immediately, and can produce symptoms very
quickly. They have nothing to do with fermentation or putrefication (do
people really still *use* that word?).
Annette, stick by your textbooks. This is afterall sci.med.nutrition, not
nat'l.enquir.sounds-good-to-me.
 
Diane
 
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: bible@iastate.edu (Anthony E Bible)
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:06:24 GMT

In article <TSF.92Sep15092556@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU> tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.173143.19933@njitgw.njit.edu> sudesh@utkal.njit.edu (T. J. Sudesh) writes:
>
>	   1) Doesn't high doses of ascorbic acid cause the urine to become
>	      more acidic,thereby making the person prone to kidney stones ?
>
>Yes, but you can take Vitamin C without taking ascorbic acid.
>Look for the word "buffered" on the label, and look for ingredients
>like zinc ascorbate, sodium ascorbate, calcium ascorbate, or magnesium
>ascorbate (but not ascorbic acid).  If you don't want more sodium in
>your diet, avoid the sodium ascorbate as well.
>

[stuff deleted]

	I thought vitamin C was ascorbic acid was vitamin C.  Your post implies
'ascorb*' is vitamin C.  Could you fill out the details on this a bit?


Regards,
tony
From: jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin)
Subject: Re: Extra iron and amino acids - Good or bad?
Organization: Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:43:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.172358.13940@pixel.kodak.com> young@serum.kodak.com writes:
>In article <1992Sep15.104111.2346@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> jonathan@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Jonathan Dwyer) writes:
>
>>Anyway, my question is:
>>
>>   I have seen some chemical supplements in the local health
>>   food store. These include amino acids to stimulate growth
>>   hormone release,  and iron and protein supplements.   Are
>>   any of these of any use,  or more importantly, dangerous?
>>
>>   c) Protein powder (just what _is_  conventional wisdom on
>>                      this?  Should I buy some,  or just add
>>                      powdered milk to my morning smoothie?)
>
>
>I have a friend who manages one of the local General Nutrition Center stores
>who'd kill me for saying this, BUT, in general, protein supplements do nothing
>but put stress on your kidneys.  As long as you eat a healthy, varied diet,
>there is no need for heavy protein supplementation.  You'd be better off
>preparing for a workout by carbohydrate loading the way many athletes do.
>Pasta is cheapest, but Carbo Hit (tm) is one of the few supplements that
>probably won't hurt you and might actually be of some limited benefit.
>
>If you eat enough good food to provide you with sufficient calories, you'll
>almost certainly get enough protein to supply your body's needs.

Most people can get enough protein from their diets if you're talking about
quantity, but getting quality protein with all the essential amino acids &
without the accompanying quantity of fat is another matter.  I used a powdwered
mix that includes protein.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Tumeric and Ginger
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 06:55:57 GMT

In article <7SEP199222013384@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>I understand that cardiologists are now treating post myocardial
>infarct patients with the addition of a lipoxygenase inhibitor 
>and a thromboxane synthetase inhibitor to the diet. 
>This can be accomplished by using a teaspoon a day of the spice 
>turmeric (a very potent lipoxygenase inhibitor, which prevents 
>lipid peroxidation), as well as a half-teaspoon/day of ginger, a 
>very potent thromboxane synthetase inhibitor.

I see you've been talking to Josh-what's-his-name, an MD also in
Israel.

>It is of interest that tumeric, costing pennies, may be as 
>effective as TPA, costing thousands of dollars.
>Any comments?

Yeah.  To state that this concoction is "as effective as tPA" is just
silly because they're used in entirely different ways.  tPA activates
plasminogen, a circulating factor in the blood which dissolves clots.
In the case of tPA (or the cheaper streptokinase) being given during or
shortly after a MI, the idea is to dissolve the clot causing the
blockage, hopefully not taking out any additional clots which might
have formed elsewhere which are serving a useful purpose.  These
fibrinolytic drugs are used _acutely_.  Neither turmeric or ginger
is going to have any effect on an acute MI, although your last meal
before you die might be more colorful and flavorful than usual.

Drugs like aspirin and other antiplatelet drugs are given chronically
as one part of a prophylactic regimen to reduce the incidence of MI.
At least in the case of aspirin, one could argue that its cost is
far lower than either ginger or turmeric.  I have no comments on the
usefulness of these two spices, or of their putative pharmacological
actions, though I have yet to read any reports which would confirm this,
only email from Israel claiming these actions.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:375 rec.food.veg:8834
From: jbyrd@chpc.utexas.edu (Jan Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:11:34 GMT
Organization: Center for High Performance Computing, Univ. of Texas System

In article <qctn4fr.strnlght@netcom.com>, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
|> 
|> Michael Bryan speaks of cutting down on calcium to retard the formation
|> of kidney stones. One cause of such stones is hyperparathyroidism. This
|> is often missed in medical examinations--the tipoff is a subtle imbalance
|> of (as I recall) potassium and calcium in opposite directions in blood
|> workups.
|> 
|> If one has such a condition in mild form it is recommended to cut out
|> Vitamin D as well as calcium, to retard stone formation.
|> 
|> Disclaimer: I am not a physician; the above comes from a conversation
|> with the head of internal medicine at Scripps Clinic some years ago.
|> For accurate medical information, see your physician.
|> 
|> David

This reminded me of something I've been wanting to ask.  I suffer from
hyPO-parathyroidism because 17 years ago I had to have 95% of my thyroid
removed.  Evidently during that procedure my parathyroid was inadvertently
removed as well, or it was damaged, or there was not enough of my thyroid
left for my parathyroid to sit on top of it.  (My understanding is that 
there are 4 lobes to the parathyroid, and they reside on TOP of the thyroid.
If the thyroid goes completely, and mine was full of tumors, then no telling
what might then become of the parathyroid.)

Anyway, since the parathyroid hormone is actually Vitamin D, I suffer from
chronic calcium deficiency if I don't take this very expensive drug called 
Hytakerol every day of my life.  (Just taking large doses of calcium doesn't
do the trick; it goes in my body and evaporates without the Vitamin D.)  Every 
couple of years, though, whatever insurance carrier I happen to be using at 
the time tries to avoid covering this prescription, claiming it is a 'vitamin', 
and vitamins aren't covered.  Unfortunately, Vitamin D is not an ordinary 
vitamin and is not available over the counter and, in fact, the company that 
produces Hytakerol seems to be the only game in town, so they can charge
whatever they want for it, and it's about $2/pill retail.

My question is, then, in the event that someday this drug will not be
available or that no insurance company will cover it, is there some *other* 
way that I can get Vitamin D?  I drink lots of skim milk (2-3 glasses per 
day), and I know there's Vitamin D in sunshine, but does that mean I need
to sun myself a lot?

Jan
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: VEGETARIAN DIET
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:45:18 GMT

In a previous article, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) wrote:
> 
>"Sugar and other carbohydrates do not require the copious flow of
>hydrochloric acid as do proteins, but just enough to further cleave
>the cellulose of the foods into an emulsion. Starches have an affinity
>for pepsin, which is needed in large amounts for protein digestion.
>When this pepsin is lacking due to the absorbing action of the
>starches, the proteins are not proplerly split into peptones. As a
>result, putrefaction takes place. Furthermore, the starches will
>ferment, causing a souring of the stomach and the formation of gas.
>Continued indigestion will ultimately cause the breakdown of vital
>structures which can result in ulcers and even cancer. Therefore
>carbohydrates and proteins should be eaten at separate meals."
>Dr. Herbert M. Shelton
> 

I'm confused.  Aren't many foods a combination of carbohydrates and proteins
anyway?  Also, doesn't any theory on diet have to have anthropological
evidence?  I.e. did people use to eat such foods separately? I don't see such
evidence in existing diets around the world, but I would be interested in
hearing about such evidence.

Mark
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Organization: Society to Prevent Proton Decay
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:03:15 GMT

Vitamin C is not toxic at any dose. Large ammounts of vitamin C can
cause flatulence and diarrhea. If Vitamin C is taken as ascorbic acid
it can lead to kidney stone formation by acidifying the urine. The
preferred (and unfortunately most expensive) form of Vitamin C is
calcium ascorbate. I am unaware of any other side affects of Vitamin
C. The balance of the evidence shows that Vitamin C reduces the length
and severity of colds, but not their number. This is not a placebo
effect, as it was established through double blind studies. Recent
research has focussed on the ability of anti-oxidants to prevent heart
disease and cancer. Beta Carotene (Vitamin A), Vitamin C, and Vitamin
E are the major anti-oxidants. The research is too new for optimum
levels of these nutrients to have been established. My personal
recommendations are 3-6 mg of beta carotene, 500-1000 mg of Vitamin C
and 200-400 mg of Vitamin E daily for their anti-oxidant effects.
--
Bernie Simon				This isn't science,
(bsimon@stsci.edu)			this is sheer madness!

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Subject: Re: Sources of amino acids
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:59:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.142422.7897@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> zuniga@loligo.cc.fsu.edu (Ralph Zuniga (FREAC/CAR)) writes:
>
>	There's been much talk lately on the body's need for amino
>acids in order to re-build muscle tissue.  A lot of companies
>are now selling amino acids supplements and making tons of
>of money off this "new" discovery.
>
>	I'm not interested in buying supplements of any kind but
>I'm interested to know what natural foods contain these amino acids.
>
>

Protein is made up of amino acids.. and that is what they are used
for.... soo... if you get a variety of protein, including a vegetarian
regimen... then you should be fine for amino acids..

Patrick
-- 
===========================| Land Line +1 403 286 9188
Patrick D. Buick EMT, EET  | Internet: buick%belay@uunet.uu.net
Belay Enterprises Inc.     | Internet: buickp@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...keyword!calgary!pixel!belay!buick
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition