From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 05:25:20 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:

>   Kalki, I just want to explore the limits of "consciousness" by your
> definition.  Please try to answer all the questions.  I will be addressing so
> possible objections, please don't make those objections without adressing my
> counter-arguments.
> 
>   Q1.  Is my watch conscious?  When it stops working I usually say it is dead
> By streatching our definitions of pleasure and pain I can say it seeks one an
> avoids the other.

No, your watch is not conscious. You may refer to it as being "dead" or
"alive" because in some respects it resembles a living organism. But
this resemblance is superficial, because living organisms are more than
"homeostasis" and "moving parts". Living organisms have consciousness.

>   Q2: Is my computer conscious?  It thinks.  Many people insist that computer
> "don't like" them.  It is simple to get my computer to tell me whether is is
> happy or not.  You could even say my computer is loyal, it rarely disobeys.

No, your computer is not conscious. Again, in some respects it resembles
the mind of a conscious being, but this is superficial, since the mind
of a living being is more than just "symbol manipulation" and "logic".

>   Q3: Is a simulation of life on my computer conscious?  It can be made to ac
> just like the real thing.

>   Possible objection to Q3: Artificial life is not conscious because it is ru
> on an unconscious device.  It is made of the unconscious, so it is unconsciou
> 
>   Counter-argument: Atoms are unconscious (they do not seek pleasure or pain,
> they do not eat or sleep), yet conscious beings are made of atoms.  How is th
> different?

The body of the being is made out of atoms, but the consciousness of the
being is not. There is a categorical difference between the
consciousness and the matter it inhabits, like the difference between
the car and the driver of the car. Of course, a car may be modified to
appear to drive "by itself" with a suitable computer installed along
with robot servos, or whatever. But the engineers who do this still know
that the car has no driver and cannot act independently.

> 
>   Q4: If I was capable of manufacturing an exact duplicate of a human being,
> would that duplicate be conscious?  If so, how accurate do I have to be?  Cou
> this be done by a simulation in the computer?

No, the exact duplicate of the human body would not be conscious. And
this is a big "if" anyway, considering that scientists do not have any
idea how to manufacture even a single cell. In fact, they have not even
identified everything that is in a cell!

>   I would appreciate any response from the K continuum.

The point is that consciousness is not a function of matter, it is
matter that is a function of consciousness. Your watch, your computer,
your simulation program, and the body you build are all produced by the
action of your consciousness. They are products made from matter under
the direction of your consciousness. Of course, you did not personally
create the raw materials from which these things were constructed, you
simply engineered them. The raw materials themselves were produced by
the action of another consciousness, the "Superconsciousness" (God).

Material analogies may help in understanding consciousness, but
consciousness cannot be reduced to a material phenomenon.

Sincerely,
Kalki "at last, some serious probing" Dasa


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