HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Family leave farce (was a most pressing COncern)
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:23:30 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.175415.16771@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:

>In article <9601@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mak Wilson) writes:
>
>>I consider it morally wrong to use the power of government to extort
>>from somebody, something that that somebody is not willing to give up
>>voluntarily.
>
>What about extortion of service?   Does your principle extend to draft
>service, and to people who do not want to give up their time voluntarily?
>So you would say that even if Clinton used chicanery to avoid the
>draft (I don't beleive this) then he acted morally in doing so?

     There are plenty of reasons to not want Clinton elected President
without resorting to foolish questions about the draft or this Moscow
nonsense.
     Maybe Bush is to old and out of it to be re-elected.  He certainly
seems to have lost the knack for playing dirty.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal     Division of Continuing Education Information Services Group
               University of Tennessee, Knoxville
               PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
From: asper@sbctri.sbc.com (Alan E. Asper)
Subject: Re: Family leave farce (was a most pressing COncern)
Organization: Southwestern Bell Technology Resources, St.Louis, MO
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 20:21:15 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.181242.16836@unislc.uucp> das@unislc.uucp (David Shorten) writes:
>Gregory R. Travis (greg@saltydog.dpsi.com) wrote:

(stuff about Germany's standard of living deleted).

I agree. Americans keep having the "the Japanese way
is the best way" concept bashed into our heads,
when sure, we could be more productive if we worked 70 hours a week until
we were DEAD.
We would do much better to emulate the Europeans, who are as productive and
get great benefits as well. My in-laws in Italy--whose economy is in bad
shape these days--seem to live extremely well, and they aren't particularly
wealthy. 

Just my two cents.
Alan

Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:50752 alt.politics.clinton:9596
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: The Games are Over, and Clinton is Going to Win BIG!!
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:56:12 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes:

>In article <adams.719167533@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>>rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake) writes:
>>
>>>If you accept that Clinton is going to win, then why don't you tone down the
>>>abusive rhetoric a little and give him a chance?  
>>
>>Just like the left toned down all of their screeching during Reagan and
>>Bush's Presidencies?
>
>     Y'know, "They started it," just doesn't impress me.
>
The issue here is wanting a double standard.  It's ok for the left to
screech all they want when the White House is under control they don't
like.  But conservatives are supposed to tone down and give the opposition
a chance.

Typical liberal/left double standard.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution
From: ipser@solomon.technet.sg (Ed Ipser)
Subject: What IS a Constitution? (was Re: Term Limits are Constitutional, Study Shows)
Organization: TECHNET, Singapore
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:39:19 GMT

In article <1bcj28INNper@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>
>>No, but the Constitution is a written code of law. To read into it
>>whatever one wants, would be equivilent to throwing away the whole
>>thing. Wherever possible, it should eb interperted to mean what it
>>was written to mean (e.g. what the framers intended the provision 
>>in question to mean.) This helps remove modern political bias, etc..
> 
>It helps remove modern political bias, but it may restore old
>political and social biases.  
>
>Progress is making *new* mistakes.

I can't help but get the feeling that most of those discussing the US
Constitution and how to interpret it have not given much thought to what
a constitution is and why it should be interpreted at all.

Why, indeed, should we not just discard the US Constituion and let politicians
and judges make up whatever laws they want and run the government as they
see fit? Why not just let the "living" constitution die of interpretation and
get on with the real business of governing: passing laws, collecting taxes, 
and putting people in jail.

But the question inevitably arises: by what right do governments do what they
do to the people that they govern? To answer that such-and-such a law gives
them the right is an exercise in circularity. No, what is needed is a charter
based on some more fundamental concept.

A constitution is a charter for government. It spells out how
government is to operate and what are its limits. It is based on the
quaint theory of the "consent of the governed", that is, you and I may
disagree on public policy but we can, perhaps, agree on a mechanism
for establishing public policy. That, anyway, is the theory.

With respect to interpretation, the choice of significance is not
between historical biases and modern biases, it is between the biases
of the government and the governed. Everytime that a "modern" judicial
interpretation rewrites the US Constitution, it perverts and usurps
that choice from the people. The proper way to remove old biases and
introduce new ones is by amendment of the Constitution, a process that
requires approval by the states.

When the power of interpretation becomes the power of amendment, the
Constitution is rendered moot, indeed. If the school of original intent
accomplishes nothing more than to constrain the power of the judiciary to
rewrite the Constituion, it will have succeeded.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Subject: Re: THIS ELECTION IS ILLEGIT!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Candidates excluded from debate
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 06:49:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.005411.15755@clipper.ingr.com>, 
ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date) writes...
> 
> 
>         PROTEST UNFAIR ELECTION PROCESS
> 

>--Al Date

You know, I'm voting for about six libertarians in local elections
and for congress. 

And in principle I agree with what you wrote.

But after getting trashed by the Party Libertarians, I hope the party
itself collapses. 

Have a nice day.

-- Stephen Tice

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: saarinen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sirpa Saarinen)
Subject: Re: Kremlin_Gate: Bill Clinton in Moscow during Viet Nam.
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 14:35:14 GMT

B645ZAW@UTARLG.UTA.EDU (STEPHEN TICE) writes:


>cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)...
>|>

>{ Re: Kremlin_Gate: Bill Clinton in Moscow during Viet Nam.,  6 Oct, t.p.m } 
> 
>|>Stephen Tice writes (apparently with a straight face):
>|> 
>|>   Going to Oxford is very like going to Canada. Protesting the war
>|>   by going to Moscow is very like Jane Fonda in Hanoi. I don't
>|>   like it, but I can live with it. 
>|>
>|>   I have a problem beyond this, which has to do with how effective
>|>   the soviets were in recruiting people. This is where my concern 
>|>   is. (Kim Philby and company, considered)
> 
>|You actually mean this.  You're saying Clinton might have been RECRUITED
>|by the Soviets?  I admire people with active imaginations.
> 
>NPR reported he went. Another Clinton supporter has said he 
>went. I am *asking* why he went, where (Moscow? Eastern Europe?),
>and what happened?  This was doing Viet Nam and I think it stinks, 
>even if he just went for a visit.

>This whole thing sounds just like the typical cases we're told to 
>watch for in counter-spy training in the military.

A few years ago I also spent some time in Cambridge (similar to Oxford).
Many foreign students, especially those who were there only for one year
(like Clinton), used their Christmas vacation for travelling in Europe
instead of going to their home countries. Many British students even did
this. Some went to the Soviet Union, Hungary and Poland. I don't think that it 
is so incredible to have visited the Eastern block countries - even in
the sixties. Some people who study at Cambridge/Oxford come there specifically 
to "see the world".  I think that Clinton wished to do it as well. (I have 
travelled in other parts of Europe myself, and I hope that this is not going 
to be held against me).

Sirpa Saarinen
saarinen@csrd.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)
Subject: Re: Free clue.
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center and Reptile Farm
Distribution: talk.bizarre
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:17:35 GMT

In article <MJD.92Oct6170238@saul.cis.upenn.edu> mjd@saul.cis.upenn.edu ("[*] Angel of Wheaties") writes:
>In article <BvpptK.x1@tegra.com> vail@tegra.com (Johnathan Vail) writes:
>>   Corallary:  They are trying more and more to outlaw guns.
>>   Conclusion: Guns can make a difference.
>
>Collared Peccary:  It is illegal to sell horse meat for human consumption.
>Conchoidial Illusion: Eating horse meat makes a bigger difference than
>        owning a gun.

This is definitely true.  Once you buy a gun, you can put it in the closet
and forget about it, but after eating horse meat, you keep tasting it for
a couple of days.
--scott
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ba.politics
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Women as inventors
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 10:31:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.171002.4763@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>I just finished Sandra Kurtzigs book -- on how she built a multi-
>hundred million dollar company from scratch, while raising a family.
>She doesn't think that any lack of sucess was from any male conspiracy.
>Any lack of success she had she'd blamed on the right source -- herself.
>
>Must be a scary thought for you, eh? No one to blame except yourself.

And yet, you didn't comment on this:

Dr. Gertrude Elion...won a Nobel Prize in 1988 for developing drugs to
fight herpes, cancer and other diseases.

Since 1937, when she was refused a laboratory job because she was "too
cute" and threatened to distract the other workers, Elion has patented
45 of her discoveries.

Wouldn't you say that her being refused a lab job because she was "too
cute" was an obstacle?
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Jack S Defends MLKing Slur (Was: ARF DEFENDS HIS HONOR)
Date: 16 Oct 92 21:09:23 GMT
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems

In <1992Oct14.120859.17617@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:

>In article <4062@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct13.143749.7999@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>>>
>>>Of course. All Nazi scumbags are "vociferous critics of Israel".
>>>
>>>To avoid an uproar, I am NOT saying that all critics of Israel
>>>are Nazis and/or antisemites.
>>
>>Thank God for your saying this Danny.
>>
>>Let you be the first and not the last.
>	
>I'll add my voice to Danny's.

And here is one WASP who counts himself a friend of Israel and who
sometimes has trouble observing the First in view of people like 
Schmidling.

>>Anisa

>	-Nora

Hi Nora.



>-- 
>"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."

Please people - can't we all just get along, there's more than enough
hatred to go around.

Bob.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: apetty@dsd.es.com (Annie Petty)
Subject:  Re: PEROT'S 1ST "INFOMERCIAL"
Reply-To: apetty@dsd.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 23:05:24 GMT

	Did anyone tape this?  I wasn't aware he
	was speaking and missed it.  I would like
	to borrow a copy.

	Thanks in advance

	Annie
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: harelb@math.cornell.edu (misc.activism.progressive co-moderator)
Subject: The Decline of America: A "Kinder, Gentler Nation"
Organization: misc.activism.progressive on UseNet ; ACTIV-L@UMCVMB
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:00:11 GMT

The Decline of America: A "Kinder, Gentler Nation"


==================================================================
Mortality rate per 100,000 due to homicide for children age 1 to
        19, 1983-86, and for males age 15 to 24, 1986-87:
==================================================================

COUNTRY(12)   CHILDREN AGE 1-19    MALES AGE 15-24

U.S. black         10.7                  85.6
United States       3.7                  21.9
Denmark             1.5                   1.0
Canada              1.1                   2.9
Switzerland         1.0                   1.4
Belgium             0.9                   1.7
Germany             0.8                   1.0
Norway              0 7                   3 3
France              0.5                   1.4
United Kingdom      0.5                   1.2
Netherlands         0.4                   1.4
Spain               0 3                   ---
Ireland             0.2                   1.3
New Zealand         --                    4.4
Finland             --                    3.0
Australia           --                    2.5
Sweden              --                    2.3
Japan               --                    0.5

Sources (for chart and text): Bret C. Williams and C. Arden Miller,
Preventive Health Care for Young Children (Arlington, Va.: National
Center for Clinical Infant Programs, 1991), p. 73; Lois A. Fingehut
and Joel C.  Kleinman, "International and Interstate Comparisons of
Homicide Among Young Males," JAMA, vol. 263, no. 24, June 27, 1990. p.
3293.

******************************************************************

From: 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
_We're Number One, Where America Stands -- and Falls -- in the New    
World Order_ by Andrew L Shapiro.   

New York, May 1992, Vintage Books, a division of Random House.   
$10 paperback. ISBN 0-679-73893-2  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   

    "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.   
    This book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. The   
    facts it reveals will startle you. They may depress you. But   
    ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation."   

                        -Robert B. Reich, author of The Work of Nations   


Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:51376 ca.politics:8647 ba.politics:6068
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 2 of 4
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:02:55 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

I had a good laugh when I saw this:

In article <12605@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>The Results of Childhood Sexual Abuse
>-------------------------------------

[...]
>Eating Disorders

>Eating disorders are also a common nonsexual response to 
>childhood sexual abuse.[Bagley & King, 114, 117, Faller, 150,
>Everstine & Everstine, 18]  Significantly, soc.motss is a group
>where many members identify themselves as "bears" (overweight
>and hairy) as distinguished from "twinks" (those with more
>normal body shapes).

First of all, you misinterpret what a "bear" is. Clue: there is no
one "type" of bear. The whole bear mystique has a lot to do with
body hair, to be sure, but just as much to do with a rugged, outdoorsy,
masculine bearing (sorry for the pun!) as with actual hirsuteness.
It has nothing much to do with body shape at all.

Secondly, and more importantly, is your false implication that
gay men tend to be more overweight than the general population.

My experience among gay men my age is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. They seem
to be more interested than the average young man in perfecting their
bodies. As a result, gyms have become staples in the daily routines of
many, to the point that they have also become major places of congregation
and friendly conversation.

I often give advice to the newly out who ask me about good ways of
meeting other gay men. I always say "avoid the bars", and point them
to gymnasiums (not to mention bookstores and dinner parties!). People
seem to be a lot more friendly with a dumbbell in their hand than with
a drink! Maybe because there are fewer pretentions at the gym. You can
see your workout partners and the other gym members all have less than
perfect bodies. Everybody knows it. Bars on the other hand tend to be
the way of offering yourself as a "perfect package"---if you don't go
to bars to socialize, that is.

This whole "gym body" phenom does have a bit unsettling implications,
though. It speaks of how we still expect men to notice the most physically
attractive people first, whether they be male or female.

Says a lot about how many women must feel about appearing attractive to
straight men!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Transcript of Sunday's Presidential Debate
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:23:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: transcript, obfuscation, confusion

In article <975@ether.UUCP> kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) writes:
>The First Presidental Debate				10/11/92

>Mr. Perot, what do you believe  
>tonight is the single most  
>important separating issue of  
>this campaign? 
>>> The principle issue that  
>separates me is  that 5.5 Million 
>people came together on their  
>own and put me on the ballot. 
>I was not put on the ballot by  
>either of the two parties. 
>I was not put on the ballot by  
>PAC money foreign lobbyist  
>money or special interest money. 


  This is hilarious!   The Wall Street Journal
  reports that Perot has spent $14 million dollars
  running for President, $11 million since he "dropped
  out" this summer.   He pays "volunteers" $10 an hour.
  Not "special interest" money?   Perot is not especially 
  interested in this campaign?  This will come as news
  to the American Public.

  Andre Marrou was also put on the ballot in all 50 states
  by his supporters, but he didn't have enough money to buy
  a presence before the media or to air 30 minute spots on
  prime-time TV.   If Perot was not fabulously wealthy he
  would be a complete unknown, politically speaking.  he has
  *bought* far more influence than the biggest, meanest,
  richest lobbyist in Washington.  He wouldn't even be on
  the ballot in Texas if he weren't a multi-zillionaire. 
  Just how stupid does this guy think we are?

---peter




Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 04:33:54 GMT
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content

radcliff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David G Radcliffe) writes:
: MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Jim McMaster) writes:
: : Steve....exactly *HOW* is rape a consistent exception?  If abortion is
: : truly the murder of an innocent child, why is a child conceived by a
: : rape any less innocent?  It bears no responsibility for its father's
: : crime.
: : Please explain....no one else has been able to do so.
: 
: It is very simple.  Sex is sinful, unless done within the confines
: of marriage for the purpose of procreation. 

..in your opinion.

I was always taught, and I always counsel, that sex is Good when used
as an expression of love in a continuing relationship.

: I may not agree with genuine pro-lifers, but at least I can respect
: their views.  I have little respect for hypocrites like Bush.

Believe it or not, I respect most pro-lifers -- those who are not
afraid to discuss their beliefs, are willing to "agree to disagree"
with people, and do not harass people or tresspass to express
their views.  I cannot respect "wafflers" like most politicians are.

As I've said before, I believe that abortion is murder.  It should not
be considered as "just another form of birth control."  It is a drastic
action that is (IMO) Wrong except in extenuating circumstances --
a nice fuzzy moral grey area.  However, a significant portion of the
population of this country disagrees with me.  I am certainly not
egotistical enough to say that those people are any less capable of
determining what is Right and what is Wrong than I am.  For this 
reason, I don't believe that State governments should outlaw abortion.
It is a moral question best decided by each individual.

Of course, I am not in favor of public funding of abortions, but that's
a somewhat differnt can of worms.  ;)
--
Michael Adams (aka StarOwl)
Episcopal Church Foundation @ UIUC
(StarOwl@uiuc.edu)

Standard disclaimers appl
From: dscharfe@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (David Scharfe)
Subject: Re: Perot and Mortgage deduction
Organization: Datapoint Corporation, San Antonio, TX
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:30:36 GMT

In article <Bvv17E.7Kw@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>   What, is there a phenothiazine shortage on the Net these days?  Perot
>   wants to raise taxes and increase the role of government in the economy
>   and here we have yet *another* person who divides his loyalties between
>   Perot and libertarians!     
> [other flames and diatribes deleted]

Geez, yet *another* tantrum from Peter.

Now, now, little boy.  I'll tell you what; I'll stop voting for
Libertarians.  Oh, I *knew* that would make you feel better.  Wipe
your nose, and you can have a cookie.