HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: No dogs in Natl Parks
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:59:17 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Aug20.172708.25509@walter.cray.com> hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens) writes:
>Well, my wife and I had a great time in Colo. backcountry.  We stayed mostly
>in the forests, Pike Roosevelt, etc and now I know why.  We went to RMNP
>and they did not allow dogs in the backcountry!!! I think that sucks!  [...]

Okay, let's see if I can get through this without raising the temperature
of the discussion too much.

First off, I'm a dog owner, and I love my pet dearly; I would defend Alethea
with my last breath, if necessary.  But I don't think she belongs in the
backcountry, nor do I think she needs to be there.

She doesn't belong there because she is likely to disturb the critters
that live there, even though she is quiet, well-behaved and stays close
to me and on the trail.  She might bring a disease or parasite in, even
though I make every effort to keep her healthy.  She might adversely
affect the experience of other hikers I may meet, who are there to enjoy
the native flora and fauna, not my pooch.

She doesn't need to be there because she has a perfectly fine time hiking
around in less remote places, on trails made for heavier human (and canine)
traffic, in areas where her presence is unlikely to significantly disturb
the wildlife -- either because they're used to it, or they're simply not
there.  She also doesn't need to be there because I'm not prepared to
deal with a backcountry canine medical emergency, and because she's not
prepared to deal with terrain and weather that is hostile to dogs.
(She's a border/aussie, and grassy meadows at low altitude are fine
for her; but boulder fields in the snow at 12,000 feet are not her thing.)

So, for instance, when I went hiking in RMNP around Long's Peak, Alethea
stayed home or at the kennel.  (Incidentally, should you need to board
your dog while in the RMNP area, I know of an excellent kennel on a large
chunk of land outside Loveland: Country Aire Kennel, (303) 669-2084).
When I went hiking in the Flatirons, Alethea sometimes got to come
along, although we usually stuck to the easier trails closer to
civilization then.  Or for another example, I'd have no problem taking
Alethea on the Confluence-to-Ohiopyle trail along the Yough; but I don't
think I'd try to take her on most of the trails in the Savage River area.
Believe me, she has a fine time even when I take her to highly
civilized Valley Forge Park; she doesn't care that she's not in
the backcountry -- all she cares about is that she gets to run around
and roll in the grass.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jeffp@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (Jeff Parke;S10000)
Subject: Re: pack animals
Organization: Washington State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 15:40:36 GMT

>>>.... I talked to a ranger one
>>>time about this and he said that many eastern senators think that
>>>pack animals are natural so they should be allowed in the back
>>>country. Pack animals were introduced to this part of the world by
>>>European explorers, and the wilderness here is just not designed
>>>to handle the destuction caused by them. Tells you how much our
>>>federal government know :).
>>>...

Beg to differ.  I have read that the native North Americans used dogs for
hauling travois for many moons before Europeans graced the new world with
horses.

I don't know offhand if the native South Americans domesticated llamas and
alpacas, but I wouldn't be surprised.

As for "design" of wilderness, had someone or thing been designing it, don't
you think s/he/it would of thought about accomodating pack animals?

I'm not arguing for them, however.  I thoroughly dislike meeting a bunch
of horses and mules on a narrow trail in the Bitterroots, nor do I like
the constant dirtying of my boots from their indiscriminate bathroom habits.
On the other hand I like the animals a lot.  And most people I've met
on pack trains are older, portly types who might not otherwise locomote
themselves into the back country.  So it's good to see them getting out.

-Jeff
-------------------
jeffp@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu ...uunet!wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu!jeffp
jeffp@WSUVM1.bitnet CIS: 71511,1512  AOL: JeffParke
a.k.a. Jeff Parke,  Washington State University College of Vet. Medicine
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:30:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Moose, Elk and other assorted beast.
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

/ hpdmd48:rec.backcountry / sherod@news.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod) /  4:16 pm  Aug 18, 1992 /
|> Wapiti is the Native American name for the Pronghorn "Antelope",
|> a much smaller animal than Moose, American Elk, or European
|> Elk.   Wapiti have distinctive short vertical antlers with
|> sharp tips, and vivid rump patches.  American Elk have much
|> larger curved antlers, and the male has a heavy rough
|> shaggy coat about the neck and shoulders that bears no
|> resemblance to the sleek wapiti at any time of year.


>And of course American "Antelope" aren't really antelope either.

>Confused?

>Scott
----------

Wapiti are American elk, not pronghorns. But I thought that pronghorns really
were antelope--what are they?

   scott smay
From: ehudlick@BBN.COM (Eva Hudlicka)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Date: 12 Aug 1992 15:28:47 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Distribution: na
Reply-To: ehudlick@BBN.COM (Eva Hudlicka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com



hi,

we're planning a short (4-5 days) backpacking trip to the Mono Pass 
area in August - 

i'd appreciate any info on the following:


	Bears - i thought the north/east sierras didn't have much of 
		a bear problem but a ranger informed me over the phone
		that they have them even above the tree line - ???
		so where do you "hang" your food? 

	Mono pass - how long does it take to get to a good camp site
		beyond the pass from the trail head on the eastern side
		(rock creek?)

	Crowds: - how crowded is the trail to mono pass in general - 
		How crowded is the area just on the other side of the pass?
		is it anything like kearsarge lakes? dusy basin?
		

	Dayhikes from the basin on the other side of the pass -
		how are the recesses? how far is it to Pioneer basin?
		can you go cross-country to pioneer basin? how long does it
		take?

	
	getting there & back:

		how long does it take to get to the trailhead from san
		francisco? how bad is the traffic on sundays (we have
		to catch a red-eye back to boston sunday night)

thanks!

eva
From: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas
Keywords: alpine lakes - where?
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:30:15 GMT
Reply-To: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <1992Aug19.001343.24761@sequent.com>, karlm@sequent.com (Karl
Maerz) writes:
|> I hear complaints about horse crap (all from this newsgroup).  Its true,
|> horses are real good at producing dung, but you guys sound like someone
|> had spread a pit toilet on the trail.  What a bunch of horseshit (heh heh,
|> sorry, couldn't help it).  Horses eat grass and/or hay and perhaps grain 
|> and maybe some feed supplements.  They poop little balls which pile if
|> they're standing still and string out if they're walking.  It does have
|> an initial odor which is not excessively unpleasant to many people.  If it 
|> is strung out on a warm sunny day it will completely dry out in a few
|> hours.  When dry, it has virtually no odor at all and the consistency of 
|> finely chopped hay or grass (which makes sense, since that's what it is).  
|> The bottom line is, the stuff is not the noxious, stinking, disgusting 
|> substance you make it out to be.

Your comments are well taken, but one might point out that you (on a horse)
don't have to walk through it.  My problem is not with the odor but with
the clouds of horseflys that linger around fresh horse dung.  The dung does
does help keep dust down on the trail, but a group of horses going down
a dry trail usually raises a cloud of dust.  In short, no matter how
tolerable the smell of horse shit is, I would rather smell the woods.
Which is why I usually avoid trails where horses are permitted.

I think Wayne's argument was not about aesthetics but was that horses make
the wilderness smaller: they allow people to get between two points more
easily and carrying more equipment than they would otherwise.

|> Try taking a whiff of horse crap as versus
|> human or other meat-eater crap and believe me you'll prefer the horse doo.

Agreed.  But humans rarely shit on the trail.

--
Don Dovey                                                  dovey@llnl.gov
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose, Elk and other assorted beast.
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:13:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: vice.10188
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Aug18.221655.1911@colorado.edu> sherod@news.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod) writes:

>And of course American "Antelope" aren't really antelope either.

True.  However I believe the "mountain goat" *is* an antelope (any
zoologists out there to confirm/deny this?).  The folks who first
gave English names to american animals were not biologists, they
just called them what they thought they looked like.  The result was
a useful popular nomenclature which doesn't mesh too well with
current scientific classification.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,misc.consumers
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Subject: Re: -- Yakima vs. Thule --
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 00:57:14 GMT

|> i'm about to purchase a roof rack for carrying my bikes.
|> 
|> can someone shed me some lights on the difference of Thule vs. Yakima?

This has been heavily discussed in various newsgroups.  The differences are
there, but not real large.  The racks have 3 parts:  the part that attaches
to your car, the bars, and the attachments to attach to your bike (or other
equipment).  Thule has a wider variety of car attachments, so you're more
likely to get a custom fit with Thule.  Yakima has round bars which give a
better fit if your car's roof line is not flat.  Finally, the Yakima
equipment attachments are generally a little better designed.

What do I recommend?  Get whatever is most popular in your area.  That will
guarantee you a supply of spare parts in the future.  Thule tends to be more
popular on the east coast, Yakima on the west coast.

So we don't start another flame war, Yakima racks are not made in Yakima,
Washington.  The company is currently located in Arcata, in northern
California.  Thule comes from Sweeden.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
From: derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: light weight coffee makers - (was: totally obnoxious camper w/o my espresso)
Date: 17 Aug 92 04:18:34 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand

In article <1992Aug14.194320.11003@spdc.ti.com> burris@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jim Burris) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.022423.16281@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>                             Filtered coffee, if anything,
>>would increase your cancer risk, because of dioxin residues
>>in the bleached filters.  I have never seen unbleached
>>filters for sale in this country.
>>
>   Probably so. BTW, I have seen and used two different brands of non-bleached
>coffee filters. Can't think of their names, though.

I don't know about the U.S.A. but Melita market unbleached coffee filters
just about everywhere else in the world. 

They also sell filter cones with a little handle.  Lightweight and efficient.
just pour stright into your mug (or throat for instant effect).


-- 

Derek Tearne. -- derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz --  Fujitsu/ICL New Zealand --
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:16:52 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

I wrote:
>
>Wapiti is the Native American name for the Pronghorn "Antelope",
>a much smaller animal than Moose, American Elk, or European
>Elk.   Wapiti have distinctive short vertical antlers with
>sharp tips, and vivid rump patches.  American Elk have much
>larger curved antlers, and the male has a heavy rough
>shaggy coat about the neck and shoulders that bears no
>resemblance to the sleek wapiti at any time of year.

BZZT.  Wrong, idiot.

I got this wrong, the previous poster got it right.

Wapiti == American Elk
Wapiti != Pronghorn

The Petersen Field Guide, which I had by synchronicity
been reading the night before, of course has it correct.
My mind simply transmuted what I saw to be consistent
with this mistake, which I've been making since 1968.

I tried to cancel the article, but my news software
doesn't wanna let me.
Apologies to anyone I misled.


Thank me for playing.  Exit right to FunWay.

<All contestants recieve the exciting UseNet home game,
 from Milton Bradley.  Now you can make a fool of yourself
 in your own living room!>

---
Joel Hanes


"USENET is a wonderful mechanism for making a fool of yourself in front
 of a very large audience."
                            Lars Poulsen
From: gdw@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Gavin Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Comments on Yellowstone
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:47:58 GMT
Reply-To: gdw@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Gavin Watt)
Organization: CCCS -- UofMinnesota


In article <10198@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Harold F
Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.011237.8653@news.eng.convex.com>
>oexmann@convex.com (Carla Oexmann) writes:
>
>>I just read a book by the Yellowstone Chief Ranger ( Scholly ? 
>something
>>like that ).  He mentioned an experiment where they put heart monitors
>>>on elk and watched as snowmobiles and xc skiers went by.  After the
>>first part of the season, the monitors showed scarcely a blip when
>the
>>snowmobilers went by, but skyrocketed when the skiers went by.
>
>Well, there has to be a reason for this.  I can't believe elk would
...
>
>1.  Maybe the guy who hooked up the heart monitors was on skis. ...
>
>2. ...Skiers on the other hand might be more likely to stop and gawk,
>...
We and others stopped, gawked and photo'd a moose and calf 50 feet from
a busy ski trail at Lone Mtn Ranch -- they seemed pretty accommodated. 
But moose is not elk except in Europe. 
>
>3.  Skiers, standing upright, might remind the elk of hunters ...
3.a or bears

>Anybody have any other proposed reasons for this phenomenon?  Or
>better still, results of hard research on the reasons?
>
In two days of skiing we never saw elk (wapati) or buffalo (North
American bison) in the woods altho one trail (the old road to Lone Star
geyser) was badly rutted by what we took to be bison tracks and manure
(maybe it was a pack train (:-)}).  We did see lots of both in the
geyser basin below Old Faithful; these seemed unfrightened by walking
humans.  On the trails and boardwalks the elk would walk away when we
approached to 5 or 10 feet, the bison did not move.  Not sure about
where the heart rate observation were done but seems like a snowmobile
on a road is an alien thing in an alien place thus learnable or
incomprehensible where a skier in the woods is a suspicious looking
thing in a familiar enviornment thus gets an instinctive response. 
Animals along roads often do not seem to do the 'right' thing; they
freeze, bolt the wrong way, ignore. In their 'natural' environment they
appear adept at staying away from danger, humans. Cf the bear and moose
threads on this list.
--
/*Gavin Watt -- Colon Cancer Control Study, UofMinn. -- (612) 627-4151
*/
/*Internet:gdw@moose.cccs.umn.edu -- BITNET:gdw%MOOSE@UMNACVX.BITNET  
*/
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sherod@news.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Subject: Re: Point to Ponder (Wolves in Yellowstone)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:47:07 GMT

In article <1449600016@igc.org>, Dan Yurman <dyurman@igc.org> writes:
|> 
|> The Idaho Falls Post Register reports this week that the introduction
|> of wolves to Yellowstone will likely lead to predation of the winter
|> elk herds around Jackson, WY.  Press reports up here seem to 
|> indicate that sooner or later wolves will return to Yellowstone
|> and surrounding areas as a result of government action.

I recall that the loss of predators in the Yellowstone area (mainly
wolves) is directly responsable for the extinction of the white
tail there.  Apparently with the removal of predators the elk
population grew and they can browse the trees higher than the
white tail.  Mule deer live in the forest and have not been as 
affected.  White tail lived along the rivers and could not survive.
My response, the wolves need to prey on the elk.

|> 
|> However, the major problem in Yellowstone this summer has been
|> auto /pedestrian accidents, drunk driving, and traffic jams
|> caused by construction to repair Yellowstone's hideously
|> pot holed roads.  Cars are more dangerous than animals to
|> people and livestock it seems than wolves.

Remove the roads.  :-)

|> 
|> Dan Yurman            | dyurman@igc.org          | 43N
|> PO Box 1569           | dyurman%igc.org@stanford | 112W
|> Idaho Falls, ID 83403 | MCI Mail: 364-1277       | -7 GMT
|> 
|> PS; Everybody please go home at Labor Day. Thank you.
|> 

Scott Herod
From: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Re: Moose vs Elk
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:39:51 GMT
Reply-To: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

andyt@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Andy Teetzel) writes:
> Is wapati pronounced "wah-PEE-tee" or "wah-pah-TEE"?

There is, I believe, an Ogden Nash poem that goes

   There goes the wapiti
   Hippitty, Hoppitty.

If my memory and Mr Nash's rhyme are both correct, that tends to argue against
both of your hypotheses.  Of course, Nash is famous for his incorrect rhymes.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.meta.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.meta.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas...pack animals
Keywords: alpine lakes - where?
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:35:17 GMT

karlm@sequent.com (Karl Maerz) writes:

>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>>...
>>
>>Pack animals should not be allowed beyond the parking lot, as they
>>further reduce in scale the tiny fragments of remaining wilderness.

>Here are some other equally stupid and inflamatory assertions:

>* There is an infinitesimally small segment of the general population,
>  known collectively as the Truly Enlightened(tm).
>* Children should not be allowed in wilderness areas since they
>  spoil the asthetics...

>Wayne, you often sound like a spoiled little boy who wants only
>his way to prevail and all the toys to himself.
>Someone suggested that you LIGHTEN UP.  Excellent recommendation.

Well it could be that Wayne is acting like a caged canary in a coal
mine. But with regards to Wayne's original premise (pack animals
should not be allowed...(in the back country)) I would have to agree
that backpacker's are suffering at the expense of packers. I was
amazed, when I returned to my old stomping grounds (Three Sisters
Wilderness, Oregon), at all the roped off restoration areas. It's
quite evident from the horse crap, tree rings and pulverized pumice
stone that backpackers weren't the culprits of the demise of these
roped off areas. There's an excellent example of packer devastation
in Yosemite's Lyell Canyon. The original trail use to be located on
the eastern side of the Lyell River. From Lyell base camp cross
over the river and hike up the eastern side. It will become clear
to you why they rerouted the trail. The old campsites still exhibit
scars and age old crap from the horse packers.

The second unrelated assertion made by Karl (Children should
not be allowed in wilderness areas) is of course an extreme
pun, but I think about 50% of the garbage I carry out are remnants
from Boy Scots expeditions (another large portion is from packer
parties). Awareness and responsibility for one's actions is all
I ask. You wouldn't trash the inside of your house (or would you?),
so why treat the wilderness any different?
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Campsites in Southern Oregon
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:39:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Aug20.023926.12253
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


I am planning a trip to southern Oregon shortly, as far as Eugene.
I used to be a member of AAA which had excellent maps and lists for
all campsites: forest service, state, county, and even private.

I have such a map/list for Northern California which I will be using
on the way up.
However, I have no info at this point on a current list of campsites
from the border as far as Eugene or Salem.
Any information on this would be appreciated.
-- 
            Mike Romano     Univ. Calif. Berkeley
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Date: 13 Aug 1992 18:26:06 GMT
Organization: /etc/organizaton
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu

In article <l8ibhfINNq1n@news.bbn.com> ehudlick@BBN.COM (Eva Hudlicka) writes:
>
>we're planning a short backpacking trip to the Mono Pass...Bears?

They are indeed above timberline.  I ran into a very pissed off 
cross-country skier in May a few years ago, who had a two week
trip cut off the first night when a bear destroyed all his food
on Donohue Pass (just a few miles from Mono Pass), above timberline
and in the snow!  Nowadays you will probably find bear-proof boxes
in the area, but better check at the ranger station.

-- 
                 Blake P. Wood - bpw@ctxsys.lanl.gov (505) 665-6524
                 Group P-1, MS-E526, LANL, Los Alamos, NM  87545

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas...pack animals
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:57:12 GMT

From: sommer@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Jeremy Sommer)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:51:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA