From: sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Communism as a Russian guilt
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:05:31 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania




In article <kosinov.724974753@ceg.uiuc.edu> kosinov@ceg.uiuc.edu (Greg Kosinovsky) writes:
>sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:

>>In article <kosinov.724705426@ceg.uiuc.edu> kosinov@ceg.uiuc.edu (Greg Kosinovsky) writes:

>>>1) Nash Sovremennik was nothing like the "Yiddish Magazine".

>> That's for sure. And I'd add, nothing like other numerous magazines.
>> Perhaps, "Novyi Mir" might be put in a row. 

>  I am not going to respond to the line above, I just wanted to save it here
>for present and future reference as a sample of Borodin's mentality.

  ???? 
  You, actually, were not required to respond. I said that NS was 
  outstanding magazine, in my opinion, of course. And outstanding
  in a good sense of the word. You don't agree -  your problem.
  What does it have to do with one's mentality, though?

>>> Can you name me ONE Russian Nationalist, who did NOT
>>>challenge the fundumental Leninist dogma, who was imprisoned during Breznev
>>>era.

>>You mean "who did not challenge... AND was imprisoned", correct? Why would he 
>>be imrisoned? For what reason? Ohh, I get it, from your point of view, Russian
>>nationalism means "bei zhidov", correct? So, you're asking to name one person
>>who said "bei zhidov" and for that reason was imprisoned. If I'm correct, am I?,

>  No, you are absolutely not correct. The examples I wanted to hear were of
>people getting imprisoned for teaching Russian language to children, for orga-
>nizing seminars on Russian culture and literature, for speaking openly and
>proudly of their Russian identity.

 OK.  Now a quote from Kosinovsky's article: 
 
 " However, precisely becouse 'bei zhidov' was such a popular sentiment ..
  .......... radical Russian nationalism was persecuted Less, ..." 

 Show me now that I misunderstood your words. Show me where "teaching 
 Russian language ..." was implied in the sentence above? However, it is
 clear why you completely changed your words - to make the next sentence
 possible:
 
> If you substitute the word "Jewish" for "Russian" in the sentence above, then
>all of the above was happening -- in our (Brezhnev's) time -- and not just in
>Stalin's time, when most major Jewish national artistic and literary figures were 
>rounded up and shot in one sweep, following the assasination of Solomon Mihoels.

  Stalin's time is a different issue. I don't want to go into that. 
  As for Breznev's era, will you argue that even teaching Russian
  language at that time was possible in an official boundary *only*.
  There were no way to speak proudly of any one's identity, since
  the only identity existed was "Soviet People". 
  
  Will you say that there were no *official* Jewish organizations
  at that time? I bet you won't. And if you won't, tell me now
  what is the point you're trying to make? That Jewish nationalists,
  were persecuted more than Russian nationalists, which *now* means
  (differently from previous article) "teaching Russian language, 
  organizing seminars on Russian culture ..." -- 
  -- is it, btw, pro Tsarja-batjushku, pro pravoslavie, pro, mozhet
  stat'sja, filosofov russkih, nachala veka naprimer? And you're 
  saying that those seminars a) were possible and b) were tolerated
  by authorities?
  					     

>   Greg.

 S.B.
 
 P.S. As we see again, any discussion inevitably shrinks to a 
      so called "Jewish question".