From: sadi@physics3 (Sadi Turgut)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Date: 9 Oct 1992 06:17:12 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics3.berkeley.edu

In article <BvrGDq.2uI@news.cso.uiuc.edu> varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine) writes:
>sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Oct6.072441.25547@wuecl.wustl.edu> tpd1@cec2.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David) writes:
>>> > How about Enosis?  Isn't it based on Megali Idea? Although, today people
>>> 
>>> 	I don't think so. "Enosis" was the desire of 82% of the population of 
>>                                                     ^^^
>>> the island to unify with Greece and not vice versa (which is "Megali Idea").
>
>> Are you inventing numbers by yourself Theodore? :-). 
>
>Theodore does not invent numbers.  It is true that more than 95% of the Greek-

 Are you sure?

>Cypriots and even some Turkish Cypriots demanded Enosis in the plebiscite
>of 1950.  Given the fact that Greek-Cypriots are 82% of the population then
>it is clear where Theodore's numbers come form.  I don't understand the smiley
>after your comment.  Unless even yourself don't believe that what you are
>saying is serious.

 Some numbers: In the 1960 census, the Greek Cypriots made up of 77%
of the island. Since the 1950 "plebiscite" claimed 96% Greek Cypriots
supported Enosis, this makes up only 74% of the island population. Well,
unless the churches where the lists are posted include other non-Orthodox
churches.

>>There was only one case in which 'Enosis' is brought to the vote of
>>Greek Cypriots, which was the so-called "plebiscite" of 1950, where
>>voting took the form of writing ones name on a petition posted outside
>>the churches.
>
>What is the problem of the plebiscite and why to you refer to it as "the 
>so-called "plebiscite" "?  It was after all a plebiscite performed under
>British rule.  Cypriots did not have the luxury to express their will in
>free elections.  So they resorted to expressing their will by signing the
>plebiscite.
>>In this way Greek Cypriots got the oppurtunity to display
>>how nationalistic they were by "voting," or ....(you fill in the spaces.)
>
>Greek Cypriots had the opportunity to express their WILL and DESIRE.
>Again I don't understand the sarcasm.  The plebiscite was not an election.
>Nobody claimed that.  Theodore refer to it as "expression of desire".  If
>it was not fair or not democratic or there was any violence involved then
>present evidence to support it.  Otherwise accept it as what it is:  The
>expression of the desire of 82% of the population of Cyprus to unite with
>Greece.

 Desire? Or acceptance? You see. The main point is not whether Greek
Cypriots "desired" Enosis, but it was whether or not, they were content
with "Independance." This was an important point, understood by
Makarios as early as 1960. (See Akritas Plan.) The Constitution were
never brought to the vote of the people, and therefore Greek Cypriot
leadership continued to follow in the path of Enosis, claiming that
it was the "Desire" of the Greek Cypriots, and cannot be "prevented"
by the proclamation of a Republic. This was the justification.

 You see. This was how it was supposed to be. Greek Cypriots wanted
Enosis. Turks said No. It is unacceptable to live under the rule of Greece.
Then, British suggested Independance. It was the only thing that was
acceptable to both sides, and it was the only way out. What it needed
was a little bit comprimise, and an understanding. And it could work.
The constitution were not guaranteeing that it will work. But, it will
pointing out the only way. Unfortunately, the president was not content
with the Independance.

>> Anyway. Let's get back to the main point. Enosis efforts were not the sole product
>>of Greek Cypriots or the Greek Cypriot people. There were many more active
>>supporters from the "motherland," like Grivas.
>
>Is this a display of ignorance?  Grivas was a Cypriot.

 Cyprus-born Athenian. He didn't become a colonel in the hide-outs of
Cyprus.

>
>>the Sampson coup, which was completely arranged by Greek junta to oust
>>slow-working-in-the-way-of-Enosis Makarios. The point is not  whether
>>or not Greek Cypriots supported Enosis (which most of us don't have
>>such suspicions, though it may not be true.) but whether some people
>>in Greece supported it. And by support, I don't mean emotionally or
>>principally. Support in a way to destroy it.
>
>Your logical train of throught puzzles me.  The fact that Greece supported
>Cypriots in their desire of Enosis does not constitute the 'Megali Idea'.
>Cypriots, in their vast majority,  desired Enosis with Greece.  Some Greeks
>supported this idea.  This is quite different than Greece invading Cyprus
>to annex her, despite of the will of the Cypriots (Hm...  what does that
>reminds me of?)   I think it is you that has missed the point entirely.

 Greece imposing Enosis. Remember 1974, Nikos Sampson? The coup was
arranged by the Greek Junta, to fasten the Enosis Process, and to
increase the prestige of the Greek Junta at home. This act was perceived
as an aggression with the sole aim of annexing Cyprus to Greece. Then,
Turkey, had to use her right to intervene, to protect the independence
of Cyprus and protect the handful Turkish minority.

 About the "despite of the will of the Cypriots" part: You are not telling
me that, Greeks who are so proud of being the "inventors" of Democracy,
were content with joining a Greece under the rule of Junta, and therefore
did not oppose the imported soldiers of the coup. Are you?

>Constantinos Varnavas
>University of Illinois

 Sadi Turgut

-- 
  The Greeks have survived in spite of all the world could
do against them, and all they could do against themselves.
              --Sir Winston Churchill