From: achen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (positron)
Subject: Re: Mongolia
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 13:58:49 GMT

In article <2B3A4829.8430@news.service.uci.edu> ygu@eve.eng.uci.edu (Yifan Gu) writes:
>
>In article <BzqoyG.79o@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> achen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (positron) writes:
>>
>>I wonder if Beijing has any plans to "liberate"
>>outer Mongolia?  I think Mongolia should be recovered
>>before Beijing can even start to dream about "liberating"
>>Taiwan.
>>
>>Also, from the historical perspective, an invasion of
>>Mongolia definitely justifiable because it could be
>>viewed as revenge for Ghengis Khan's invasion of China.
>>
>>If you think about it carefully, China never did really
>>recover from the Mongolian invasion.  Before the Mongolian
>>invasion of China, China was always the premier civilization
>>in the world.  After the Mongolian invasion, the West overtook
>>China permanently as the premier civilization in the world.
>>
>>In my opinion, the "real" China was permanently destroyed by
>>the Mongolian invasion and real Chinese history ended at that
>>point.  All of the notable dynasties that followed the Mongolian 
>>invasion were not real Chinese dynasties.  For example, most
>>historians don't consider the Manchus as being Chinese.
>                               ^^^^^^^
>>
>>  
>
>Are you confusing the Mongolians with the Manchus ?



No, I am saying that the Chinese dynasties which followed the Yuan
never really achieved the greatness that the dynasties before
the Mongolian invasion had achieved.

The Ming dynasty, even though it had its high points, was never
as glorious as the Tang dynasty.  Also, you have to look at the
relative chronological time frame of these dynasties.  When the
Tang dynasty was at the height of its power, the rest of the world
was in the dark ages and it was indeed the premier civilization in
the world.  However, when the Ming dynasty was at its high point,
the renaissance in Europe was starting to take hold and European
expansion was about to begin.  When you compare the Ming dynasty
with the European civilization at that point in time it would
be difficult to say which was the premier civilization at that
point in time.

Since the Ming eventually collapsed whereas Europe took off
to reach new heights, I would say the Ming dynasty was a
second rate civilization and therefore not comparable to
the pre Mongolian invasion Chinese Dynasties.

So, it is reasonable to argue that "true" Chinese history
was ended by the Mongolian invasion.




>
>Both Mongolian and Manchu minority groups exist in China today, and they are 
>very different people. The Mongolians speak their own langrage and have their
>distinct culture. But the Manchus have been largely assimilated into the Chinese
>Han culture. If you meet a Manchu person in China today, you won't be able
>to find much difference between him/her from other Han people because they 
>speak Chinese just the same and they don`t look much different.
>
>Historically, the Mongols conquered China, established Yuan Dynasty, which was 
>later replaced by Ming Dynasty of Han tradition. Ming was destroyed by rebels
>uprising(Li ZhiCheng), and the Manchus took over at the time of Mi ng's destruction
>and imposed the rule of Ch'ing Dynasty, which was turned upside down later by ......
>..... so and so on.
>
>
>Nobody is talking about "liberating" anymore anywhere. Now the issue is 
>unification or separation (or, further separation).
>
>
>
>


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