From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-choice vs. Pro-abortion
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:55:04 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <21431@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>In article <1992Aug28.191853.8496@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>Usually?  What percentage, and from what source?  I know several
>>people who have had abortions and what you describe wasn't the case. 

>Each of these post-2nd trimester
>abortions is a potential incident of what I was describing.  

I didn't ask about 'potential'.  You have REPEATEDLY asserted that
live births in which the child was discarded to suffocate on a pile of
rags were a WELL-DOCUMENTED DAILY OCCURANCE.  How many OCCUR (not
potential) and where is this number documented?

>The saline induced abortions amount to little more than killing the child
>in utero.  The mother's body then finds it has a dead child inside, and
>delivers the child as with a still-birth.  The child in this case often
>has little or no chance of survival (though many do anyway - often with
>severe respiratory and cardiac problems).  

Wait a minute.  You talk about "killing the child in utero" and "a
dead child inside" and "a still-birth", and in the very next sentence
talk about survival?  What is wrong with that  sequence of statements,
John? 

>A prostaglandin induced
>abortion often produces a live birth since the child is not killed while
>still inside of the mother.  
>But if the abortion is performed AFTER 20 weeks, the child
>is quite capable of surviving, as evidenced by the growing number of
>21 week births which are being reported in the media.  The typical
>method which the doctor will employ in these cases is to discard the
>child into a pile of rags, which the child then suffocates in.  This is
>well documented in books which I and others have cited.

Well documented WHERE (not 'pro-life' propaganda, either, John -- REAL
documentation) and what are the numbers?  Aren't you the man who
insists on sources and numbers for all things?  So far you've given us
mere assertion.

>>Every day?  How many a day, and from what source?

>Again, your question is an incomplete sentence, but I will attempt to
>answer it anyway.

>The greatest source of these abortions is women who decide to have an
>abortion, but who for some reason put it off.  They are then stuck with
>the choice of finding a doctor willing to perform a 3rd trimester
>abortion, and winding up with a child.  The clinic which OR targetted
>in Kansas last year was a perfect example of such a doctor.

How many abortions a day result in live birth where the child is
suffocated, and what is the source for the data?

>I believe that John Iacoleti (to use your spelling ...) put the
>percentage at 5 or 10 percent of the total being 3rd trimester abortions.
>If you take it at the minimum value, that makes 85,000 3rd trimester
>abortions annually.  At the usual number of days in a year, that makes
>232 possible survived abortions - noting that the 3rd trimester occurs
>well after 21 weeks (by more than a month after the 3rd trimester
>starts, for that matter).  So, I would say that 232 is a nice conservative
>figure to start from.  Taking reality at 1/2 or even 1/3 of that value
>still puts deaths caused by what should be illegal abortions somewhere
>around the number of deaths caused by handgun related murders.

Mere assertion.  Much talk about "potential".  No evidence.  Come now,
John.  You demand this from others.  How many abortions a day result
in live birth where the child is suffocated, and what is the source
for the data?

>>No, because RU486 only works very early during the pregnancy.

>This is not correct.  Used in appropriate dosages, RU486 will make even
>late-term abortions possible in the home.

No, used in APPROPRIATE dosages it will not.  One can, of course, take
much much larger amounts, which will have this effect.  I would,
however, also wonder about their effect on the mother.  One can also
induce abortion with strychnine, but I don't suggest it.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.