From: susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko)
Subject: Re: More About India/ Whither Patriotism
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:22:52 GMT

baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur) writes:

>Sorry, Susan, I disagree with both premises ! While I don't want to minimize
>the extent of sexual harrasment in India, I do object to its characterization 
>as 'ubiquitous'.
>But more than that, I am upset that anyone would see it as being relatively
>absent in the US. I believe that is downright dangerous. I am glad 
>that none of the women who have responded to this thread have experienced
>harrasment here, at least of the form that they have in India - but that 
>doesn't mean it does not occur.

Well, Satyen, the easy response to your point is that if you don't face
it, you don't know what it's like. But I don't think that's a fair
argument, because most Indian men have *some* idea of what it's like,
either from their sisters or women friends, or because they've been a
part of it. (please note: I'm not suggesting that Satyen has a history
of harassing women :-))

Not ubiquitous? It's happened to me in Bangalore, Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay,
Trivandrum, Kottayam, buses, movie theatres, lines outside movie theatres,
IIT, shopping centers, commuter trains, long-distance trains, streets,
and parks in some form or the other. As far as I can tell, this is a 
pretty average situation for most women; we don't talk about it constantly
in India simply because it's so much a fact of life. 
OK, I can think of a number of situations where there's been no harassment
whatsoever, so if one's being picky, 'ubiquitous' is perhaps not totally
accurate. How about 'commonly and generally occurs'?

>I suggest that many of these women have simply never been in situations 
>where such harrasment occurs, although college campuses are a major 
>site for such occurences. Yes, women in the US also experience unwelcome 
>attention, in a manner that makes them uncomfortable - it does happen -
>everything from verbal harrassment, to acquaintance rape and date rape - 
>including offensive graffiti, strangers following and becoming obsessed 
>with them, having their anatomy commented upon in public, and on and on. 
>One only needs to keep up with the media to be aware of these facts, 
>but there is also a large body of anecdotal evidence from friends and 
>acquaintances.

No-one's denying that harassment occurs in the US too. But all of the
women who've spoken here feel that it's considerably less than in India. *All*
the situations that you describe happen consistently in India. We live 
normal lives in the US. If we've just not happened to be in situations
where harassment occurs, doesn't that imply that it's considerably
easier to avoid such situations because they're less common? I take
commuter trains to work every day, some of them crowded, but I haven't
been poked and prodded as I was on my single Bombay commuter train
ride. I just asked one of my American friends if she had ever been
harassed in a Metro train in the 15 years she's been living in the area,
and she said that she had twice had a drunken man sit next to her and
talk to her in loud and obnoxious language. How can one not feel that
there's a difference in the levels? The situations you describe get a 
fair amount of attention in the US media, imho because they're more 
unusual than in India. It seems ironic that you should be trying to 
convince us that it's a lot worse than our own experience suggests. 

You may be right about a common pattern of adolescent male behaviour,
but the actual expression of those instincts *is* determined by the
general level of social acceptance. If that were not so, we wouldn't
see a difference here. I know your argument is that there *is* no
difference between harassment in India and the US, but I'm afraid
you have to take the womens' opinion on this one. 

I'm not sure which 'class' you think is responsible for the harassment.
Personally, I think that economic levels make a difference only in
the phrasing of the comments.

>when college campuses are experiencing what is considered an epidemic 
>of 'date rapes', amongst many other indices of rising sexual harrasment, 
>that anybody would say that sexual harrasment was relatively  absent 
>in the US ! 

Note the word 'relatively'. The women posters have been comparing their
experience here to that in India. If one only read the papers, one would
think that roadside harassment was completely absent in India, simply
because it's never important enough to be reported. Extremely serious
abuses like dowry deaths do make the papers, but not the common hassles
we face every day. Compared to something like the dowry deaths, the
roadside stuff is minor, and I do feel that the more egregious problems 
need more attention. The US isn't perfect by any means. But there's no 
way I can agree that it's as bad here.

I've used the word 'we' in this post because I feel that my experience 
is pretty representative. However, I don't claim to speak for anyone but
myself.

Susan.

--
Mail from this account is forwarded to susan@vger.niddk.nih.gov