HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Subject: appology
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 06:43:31 GMT

I appologize for the previous message which got garbage inserted into it
due to a screw-up with the news server.

I am cooling off for a while.  The election issue is very important though
so I'm moving it, as far as I am conserned, into to a different gear.

bassem
From: eliedw@ulrik.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Subject: Re: European Parliament and the Lebanese legislative elections
Organization: Univerity of Oslo, Semitics dep.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:49:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.162857.9053@prism.poly.edu> medawar@prism.poly.edu
(Bassem Medawar) writes:
>Elie.. I don't wish to split hairs with you.  I am not a historian.  My
>knowledge of history as a school boy is that for some periods of time the
>coastal cities and the Biqaa@, at least,  belonged to the wilaayat ash-shaam. 


Note what Philppe Hitti in his Lebanon in History says:

[Lebanon under the mutasarifiyya] "In its geographic delimitation the country
was stripped of al-Biqaa@ and Waadi al-Taym - whose very fertility was owed to
top-soil swept from the mountain by rains and winds and to streams fed from
water stored in the bossom of the mountain _ as well as Beirut and Sidon all of
which formerly belonged to Lebanon" p.442

earlier he writes:
[war between Napoleon and Turks] "Bashir (the II) presented [to the Turks]
horses at Hamah, wheat at Damascus and an offer to place the granaries of
Ba'labakk and al-Biqaa@ at the disposal of the Turkish troops. The reward was
swift and gratifying, a firman from the grand vizir appointing Bashir ruler
over "The Mountain of the Druzes, Wadi al-Taym, the region of Ba'labakk,
al-Biqaa@, Jabal @aamil and the region of Jubayl", with the authority to deal
directly with the Porte. But al-Jazzar, if ignored was the man to acquiesce
....." p.414

Depending on which wali was stronger the borders between Lebanon and the
wilayat al-Shaam moved. 

Note though that while from Lebanon it was Lebanese princes who were fighting,
in Damascus, Akka, Sidon and Tripoli it was Turkish walis who were appointed by
the Turkish Sultan.

We know that Fakhr al-Din faught and won the Battle of Anjar in order to
prevent the Wali of Damascus from holding control of Baalbak.

this is intersting, we should learn more about our history!
>
>The point I am making is that the Syrians may have a justification for
>their demand.

THis is exactly what I am against, the Syrians have not justification in their
claims! of course it is bull!

The only justification is if people themselves want to join Syria or whatever
country, this is justification!

>To me this is bull.  But I am not a Syrian.
>
>
>bassem
>

elie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad)
Subject: Re: grandliban.gif:  INFO
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:30:03 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.151307.3510@news.clarkson.edu> saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu (Anwar M. Saleh) writes:

   Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Path: watmath!watserv1!torn!utcsri!rpi!clarkson!cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu!saleham
   From: saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu (Anwar M. Saleh)
   Subject:  Re: grandliban.gif:  INFO
   Message-ID: <1992Jul22.151307.3510@news.clarkson.edu>
   Sender: news@news.clarkson.edu
   Nntp-Posting-Host: cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu
   Reply-To: saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu
   Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
   Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:13:07 GMT


   elie@hdtv.njit.edu (...NADINE...):
   > Photo caption:
   >
   > "Great Lebanon is Publicly Proclaimed a Separate State"
   >
   > On September 1, 1920, General Gouraud, the French High Commissioner for
   > Syria, publicly proclaimed in Beirut that Lebanon was in the future to be
   > a separate state independent of Syria and under the protection of the
   > French government. He is shown here with the Maronite Patriarch
   > and the head of the Moslem population.

     So it was France in 1920. And under the protection of the French
     government!! and you blame Syria? 

     Q: who said that Lebanon is independent from Syria?
     A: France

     That is right.

     Now if Genaral Gouraud included Lathqiyyeh to Lebanon, Some on the scl
     will fight for the withdrawal of Syrian troops from lathqiyyeh.

     Anwar Saleh



That was then. No one disputes the role of France and Great-Britian in
the modern shaping of the Middle-East. When we blame the Syrian
government (not all of the Syrians are supportive of the current
regime mind you, especially those who tend to "disappear" suddenly) we
base our blame on the account of its deeds. It is a dictatorship,
bloody and unmercyfull. What it is performing right now in Lebanon
with the help of its allies is nothing short from rape.

As for the Syrian's claim on Lebanon it has no more ground than any
other such claim made by any other nation.

Only the will of the people speaks for the people. When the Lebanese will
be given the right to choose, they will tell us what kind of Lebanon
they believe in.

On a related note, I would like to add that Israel is not any better
than Syria when one compares their actions in Lebanon. Both have used
force, both have tried to impose their will, both have ubducted,
killed and committed unspeakable crimes.

Yet there is one major difference in the current situation: it is
Syria who is trying to shape Lebanon's to its will right now with
Israel's blessing. Guess which country aproved first of the Taef's
agreement ? Israel. In fact, I doubt whether the Israeli government
cares as to who governs Lebanon. As long as it can keep the Gholan's
heigh it is happy. 

Assad's regime is comparable to Stalin's or to Mao's regime. Anyone
who is in support of such a regime is in support of the its actions.


naji.
--
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Naji Mouawad  |          nmouawad@watmath.waterloo.edu            |
    |  University   |---------------------------------------------------|
    | Of Waterloo   |   "The Stranger in us is our most familiar Self"  |
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
From: saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu (Anwar M. Saleh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: grandliban.gif:  INFO
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:44:01 GMT
Reply-To: saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Naji:

what makes you think that the phalangists can order Syrian troops
in and out as they please?

I repeat what I posted before, the phalangists used to say on their
radio "lawlaa sooriyyaa lakafartu balarabi waluroobati walurbaan".

alkataa`ib brought Syria into Lebanon to fight and kill fellow Lebanese. 

The problem with alkataa'ib is that they think they are smart and 
intelegent while Syrians are stupid.

If Lebanon is totaly different from Syria, then what make them think that
Syria will fight for them and go?

If Lebanon is part of Syria, then what makes them think that Syrians will go. 

They tried to play it with Syria, Israel, Iraq, France
and they never succeeded for one reason. They wanted to play it 
against their own people. 

Anwar Saleh
From: elie@sensors.njit.edu (...NADINE...)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: What the puppets don't want to tell you. IMPORTANT
Date: 21 Jul 92 11:04:12 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

Blame typos on the OCR software :-)
Regards, Elie.

--

                                 ________
________________________________/--------\______________________________________
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: fahs@ecf.toronto.edu (FAHS Samir Mahmoud)
Subject: Re: Joke :-)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 03:27:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.035209.10413@njitgw.njit.edu> elie@sensors.njit.edu (...NADINE...) writes:
>
>Imam Moussa Sadr's sister calls Libya to inquire about her brother.
>
>Sadr: "Alou"
>Libyan: "Laa', shawou"
>
>--

This joke is of a very low taste and too insensitive.  It transgresses the
boundaries of acceptable jokes.  Had it been funny, it would have been easier
to overlook its rudeness.

Then again, what would I expect from ElieM?!!!.

Frankly, I do not think it was posted as a joke, more like a defiance. Just
another one in his series of antagonizing articles.

Not much of a disappointment there since expectations were never that 
high, we have always known the caliber of person he is.

> Elie

Samir M. FAHS


-- 


============================================================================
                    |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: fahs@ecf.toronto.edu (FAHS Samir Mahmoud)
Subject: Re: The Syrian security point of view
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:04:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.160328.1053@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> haidar@ces.cwru.edu (H. Harmanani) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.142219.8983@prism.poly.edu> medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar) writes:
>
>>1. I grew up in Syria in the 70s, I lived about 15 km from the the so called 
>>lebanese border (Tripoli). Almost every night Isreali Jets would come over the 
>>area I lived in through Lebanon and Bomb the Hell out of Syrian positions.
>>
>>2. Lebanon have always lacked a strong position against isreali attacks on 
>>Syria through the Lebanese territory, and had no defense what so ever.
>
>Still with the Syrian military presence in Lebanon, Israeli jets still
>bombard areas and villages.  Syrian army has never done a thing about
>it.  I don't see that as a good reason for "a strong syrian" presence
>in Lebanon. 
>

>H. Harmanani (haidar@alpha.ces.cwru.edu)
i

It is strategically correct that syria would have to have a military presence
in lebanon to protect its own cities. After all, Damascus is only a few miles
away from the lebanese border.  So its presence is not to prevent the
bombardment of the lebanese cities and villages, it is for its own security. 
That has almost always been the case when a weak country borders two enemies.

In conclusion, from the point view of a syrian,  Lebanon is strategically 
important to their security.


Samir M. Fahs
-- 


============================================================================
                    |
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (...NADINE...)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Amnesty blasts Syria.
Date: 23 Jul 92 04:56:44 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


   LONDON (AP) -- Syrian authorities continue to hold and torture thousands of
political prisoners without charge or trial, Amnesty International charged
Wednesday.  
   In a report titled "Syria: Indefinite Political Imprisonment," the
international human rights group accused Syrian leaders of abusing emergency
legislation to imprison political opponents.  
   It said the report was based on interviews with released political detainees
who told of routine punishments that included beatings on the soles of feet and
being hung from a tire and beaten with sticks and wires.  
   Last December and March, the Syrian government announced that it planned to
release approximately 3,400 political prisoners. It has freed about 2,000 so
far, but has detained hundreds more people, Amnesty International said.  
  "We hoped earlier this year that Syria was beginning to right past wrongs and
that international law would at last be respected," the group said. "But 
despite recent releases, political suspects continue to be arrested ... 
prisoners of conscience remain locked up ... torture is still rife."  
   A Syrian Embassy spokeswoman, who refused to give her name, said no one was
available to comment on Amnesty International's charges.  
   Syria's emergency legislation -- which dates to 1963, when the Arab Baath
Socialist party took power -- allows for indefinite detention without charge or
trial. Sixteen former government and Baath members remain in prison for 
opposing the 1970 coup that installed Hafez Assad as president.  
  Most of those detained by Syria's military intelligence or political security
officials have been tortured at some point, according to the testimony of
released detainees, Amnesty International said.  
   Among the most recent to die in custody was Munir al-Ahmad, a 60-year-old
poet and journalist who was arrested last year after returning from a trip to
Switzerland where he reportedly criticized the Syrian government.  
  Syria has not provided details on the circumstances of his death in January
that were requested by Amnesty International, the report said.  
   The report also documented cases of at least six men who continue to be held
in prison beyond their sentences.  
   Among them is a former Syrian army intelligence officer, Khalil Brayez, 59,
who was abducted in 1971 from Lebanon, where he published two books criticizing
Syrian military performance in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. The author was due to
be released in 1985. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: sion@sioux.ctr.columbia.edu (Boudi Sahyoun)
Subject: Re: slaves.gif: INFO
Organization: Free Lebanon
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:23:55 GMT
X-Posted-From: sioux.ctr.columbia.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <0JS-at#@engin.umich.edu> hani@morris.engin.umich.edu (Hani Abinassif) writes:

>on this note (Slavery), I think ISLAM was the only religion that states clearly
>against slavery, by Hadith, example, and practice.  I can see from a social

I would be genuinely interested in such a Hadith quotation...


Boudi
From: oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: jokes
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:42:11 GMT
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:
: In article <37221@imag.imag.fr> oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
: 
: 
: >  Mr Elie, spare us your flames, we are all brothers, even if "feel"
:                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: 
: who are you?
: 
  And that's all what you have to say ?. Didn't you understand that i was
Syrian ?.
: 

--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. ouicheck@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: petrak@watson.ibm.com (Raja Petrakian)
Subject: Re: Test
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:38:49 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Test.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: hani@catnip.engin.umich.edu (Hani Abinassif)
Subject: Re: Farid Al-Khazen: a Lebanese first.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 00:43:29 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: hani@catnip.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Jul30.233344.29454@njitgw.njit.edu>, elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
> 
> From CLAO
[....]
> Khazen concluded: elections are "a matter of principle: they are either 
> free of unfree. There can be no half-way measures in this. If the 
> first elections of the 'second Lebanese republic' cannot be fairer that the
> (1972) elections of the 'first Lebanese republic' (then) why hold them 
> at all?"
> 
> (al-hayat July 29)
> 
> 
> PS: Last paragraph is a special for Hani & Ayman.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Listen...If you have something to say, come forward and say it.
Otherwise do not use qoutes of others.  I am not sure who to address:
 Al-Khazen or Elie Arafat Hijazi:-)
-Hani
-- 
 ____    ____ "These views are explicitly/implicitly
|    \  /    | mine...and not that of U-M or CAEN",   
 | |\ \/ /| |  University of Michigan| Hani_Nassif@um.cc.umich.edu
 | | \  / | |  1354 G.G.Brown Lab.   | hani@caen.engin.umich.edu
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: syrianarab.gif: INFO
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:23:57 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


(This is from 1930, please don't flame me)

"Syrian Arabs in their loose robes"

Most of the people of Syria are of Arab origin. The Arabs of the towns are 
chiefly petty merchants and quite different from those of the desert, who,
though they may be robbers, are not so treacherous nor so fanatical.
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (...NADINE...)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: bsharreh.gif: INFO
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:02:40 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


Caption:

"The cedars of Lebanon are giants among trees"

From Bible times Lebanon has been famous for its giant cedars, which 
grow from eighty to a hundred feet high and were formerly known as the
Glory of Lebanon. There are not now so many of these great trees as
formerly, but some still grow high up in hollows of the mountains,
especially in Bsherreh, near Mount Lebanon.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: hani@catnip.engin.umich.edu (Hani Nassif)
Subject: Re: European Parliament and the Lebanese legislative elections
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 01:29:29 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: hani@catnip.engin.umich.edu


Keyword

Bassem,
	The elections issue can be divided into two points:

1. The process itself,
2. Its objective.

I agree with you that the legality of the process is undemocratic to say
the least. I agree with you that expatriots should be allowed to vote.  However,
the situation over the last 15 years has been as undemocrtaic and painfull,
especially to expatriots.  Starting from everyday life, to national security,
to economic problems, and not to mention the Militia's laws and order.  

Given the situation, an alternative could be to wait or postpone the elctions.
But till when?  What are the new expected changes?  The Syrians according
to Taef will be in the Beka'a if they pulled out from Beirut.  Can you justify
holding elections in Beirut only?  What about the South and Beka'a?  It would
be more undemocratic to exlude those parts of the country, and could be
understood as a partitionning scheme.  Your suggestions?

As for the objective:
I am for any step that will create new givens in the Lebanese situation.
I am tired of the status quo...There is no gaurantee that elections will
do any good, but at least it *WILL* remove some traditional leaders, which
is an accomplishment in itself.  This might explain Jumblat's and Salam's
less_than_enthusiastic atitudes.

I, as a Lebanese who felt excluded from power sharing, will welcome any
change in that formula.  If those who object have a problem with it, it
is motivated by the fear of losing privilages (which is refered to as
swallowing Lebanon) and power.  The way I feel: I have nothing to lose
as A. Jrad put it.

-Hani
-- 
 ____    ____ "These views are explicitly/implicitly
|    \  /    | mine...and not that of U-M or CAEN",   
 | |\ \/ /| |  University of Michigan| Hani_Nassif@um.cc.umich.edu
 | | \  / | |  1354 G.G.Brown Lab.   | hani@caen.engin.umich.edu
From: ali@babar.inria.fr (Ali Atie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: About vain words and music
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:51:42 GMT
Organization: Koala Project, Bull Research France

Ibaa Oueichek writes:
> If G-D's says that Umm Kulthum, Fairuz and such great artists are "forbidden"
> then excuse-me, i don't want such a G-D.

What did those great singers do to the oppressed people in the world.
Nothing than trying to keep them away from working for their cause.
Reminds you of Radio Israel diffusing Umm Kalthum songs during the wars
against the Arabs. 

>Ten years
>later, the guy decided that between G-D and music (and plenty of other "Haram's
>) he would chosse music, and he became atheist because of this G-D whose the
>greatest joy seems to impose more and more "haram" on his "Ibad".

He should not have to become atheist since Allah(SWT) could forgive
us all our sins except Atheism.
Reminds me of a well-known ex-singer from U.K. (i do not recall his name), who
converted to Islam and then stopped singing and playing music. He believes
that nothing is worth but obeying Allah(SWT). You see, it is a matter of will, 
exacltely like stop drinking Alcohol, eating Pork, ... 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: petrak@watson.ibm.com
Subject: Re: European Parliament and the Lebanese legislative elections
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:00:04 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Jul29.162857.9053@prism.poly.edu>, medawar@prism.poly.edu
(Bassem Medawar) writes:
|> 
|> Elie.. I don't wish to split hairs with you.  I am not a historian.  My
|> knowledge of history as a school boy is that for some periods of time the
|> coastal cities and the Biqaa@, at least,  belonged to the wilaayat ash-shaam.  
|> Mount Lebanon was not easily penetrable to the Ottoman armies so it enjoyed
|> some form of self rule going through the emirs (notably Fakher-d-diin).
|> France gave the biqaa@ valley to "Le Grand Liban" to prevent another
|> famine from happening like the one which happened during WWI.  My grand
|> mother lived through the famine and told me horror stories about it.  
|> 
|> [..]
|> >elie wardini
|> 
|> bassem

Just for the sake of precision wilayat ash-sham referred specifically
to wilayat dimashk.  It did include areas that are today within the
boundaries of the Republic of Lebanon.  Notice though that there were many
other wilayats in the region such as wilayat homs, wilayat trabulus, wilayat 
'akka, etc.  Wilayyat Trabulus actually included towns that are today
in the Syrian Arab Republic.  In general, the Ottomans had
their administrative regions centered around big cities.  They never
had any administrative region that included both Lebanon and Syria.
You have to go back to the early Ommeyade era to witness such a large
admnistrative unit that included both countries. Even then it was
short lived.  Perhaps the longest period where such an entity existed
is under the Byzantines and the Romans.  At the time though, there were
few Arabs in the area which was inhabited mainly by Aramaic people.

Raja
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: alami@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Wassim Alami)
Subject: Re: schoolboys.gif: INFO
Originator: alami@aragorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 22:41:53 GMT


In article <1992Jul22.181412.28967@njitgw.njit.edu>, elie@hdtv.njit.edu (...NADINE...) writes:
|> Althought this is not a photo of Lebanon its from the same book, and
|> I thought it was interesting how things were in the 1930s. I am not
|> sure if this is the case now. Maybe we can get some feedback from Ali :-)
|> 
|> Figure caption:
|> 
|> "Stern Schoolmaster of Southern Arabia Instructs his Class Assembled in the
|>  Open Air"
|> 
|> Only the boys go to school in Arabia, since, according to strict Mohammedan
                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> teaching, it would be a waste of time to educate girls, who spend their 
   ^^^^^^^^^
|> lives attending to household affairs.



Since when you where an expert on Mohammadian teaching and moslem affairs?
If you want to discuss a religion that you are an not familiar with, I suggest
you go back to the source of that religion,,i.e. Koran, Hadith and even reliable 
Ijtihad, understand the issue, and support your claim.

Until then please stop throwing around theories that you don`t really believe in.

Wassim Alami

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon