HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Education etc.
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:56:08 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1263

From article <12391@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM
 Francois Audet explains:-

> [Stuff deleted]
>
> Francophones (and latins in general) have always feel more comfortable
> with legislating, rather than letting the power to judges, monarchs
> and tradition. That's why the civil code relies more explicit laws
> rather than jurisprudence.
> Que veux-tu, c'est l'esprit cartesien...
> 

  Is that why most francophones, with whom I have discussed the human
  rights restriction in limiting access to English schools, simply shrug
  their shoulders and say, as if to state some undeniable, unchallengeable
  truth of life, "It's the law." ?

  Is this a blind faith in authority?

  Is it a hangover from the days when so much faith was placed in the leaders
  of the Catholic church - who had so much political power?

  Is it a sin to say "The law is wrong" ?

> ... passive resistance is not our game... :-)

  Whose game is Alliance Quebec playing?
-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: brea9430@mach4.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u)
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:37:19 GMT

In article <12461@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>In article (Robert Story) writes:
>>She's NOT *pretending* to be the Queen of Canada, she IS!
>
>>So, what you're saying is that Quebec can be a distinct society
>>but when it comes to TROC, we can go go screw OUR heritage?
>
>You can keep your heritage: just don't IMPOSE it on others. What would
>you say if your passport said you were a subject of the King of France
>(if he would still exist), or the Pope, or the Bonhomme Carnaval, or
>anybody you couldn't care less about because so other part of the
>country decided that it was part of their heritage?

Ah, imposition? Just lately it seems some Quebecois about have the market on
imposition. At least in TROC one can set up a store and market it entirely
in French if one wants to. Business won't exactly be brisk, but the option
is there. In Quebec, depending on environment, one can be
charged/bullied/shunned for speaking English--which is supposed to be an
official language of Canada, the country in which Quebec is still, last I
looked, a province. This breaks internationally established human rights
laws. And people bitch about having the world's predominant business
language shoved down their throats. 

Keep in mind I am not talking to much of Quebec, because I imagine much of
Quebec is reasonable. 

Yes, Quebec is a distinct society in my view. That doesn't exempt them from
human rights obligations. And we're all distinct societies. All of us. 

I wonder how New Brunswick does it. You don't hear about the kind of
atrocities people in Quebec are committing, in New Brunswick. There are
English AND  French people there...and guess what? They seem to be getting
along. Wow.

Ken Breadner (brea9430@mach4.wlu.ca)
From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: French Questions
Date: 22 Jul 92 02:22:16 GMT
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto

In article <BrnuID.1tr@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
	beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

>>>In Quebec all hospitals are "white" (except a few Jewish hospitals in
>>>Montreal), so I hardly understand this one.

>>   Denis, this is a truly frightening posting.  Are you seriously
>>suggesting that most Jews in Montreal are anything other than "white"?
>>
>>Tom Box

>Je m'excuse aupres des Juifs qui auraient mal compris ce que j'ai
>mal explique.

There are enough *real* issues to deal with without getting cought up in
semantics. I appreciate when Denis posts in English, and I am certainly
willing to cut a large amount of slack for words that could obviously
been misinterpreted.

No offense was taken, Denis, certainly in these parts. I know what you
were meaning to say.

(And Tom, there are a *lot* of people still out there who would gladly
make a distinction between Jews and "whites", not all of them neo-Nazis.)

-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
   Said Captain Jean-Luc Picard to the tailor at his machine: "Make it sew!"
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bla, bla
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:33:37 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article (Christopher Browne) writes:
>
>In my program, we ``officially'' offer courses in both official
>languages.  In reality, I don't know of ANY time at which any of the
>core courses were offered in French.  (In spite of the fact that there
>are quite a lot of francophone professors!)  I heard that it happened
>ONCE, a few years ago.  Most of the students ARE bilingual, but French
>is seldom one of the two languages.
>-- 
>Christopher Browne
>cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
>University of Ottawa
>Master of System Science Program

I followed the engineering program at the same university. All my
courses were in english after my second year. Each year, the
university would offer courses in both english and french and, O
surprise!, cancel the french one a day before it started. Also, Ottawa
U policy's is that you can present your assignments, exams, etc. in
french or english. Tried it once: it doesn't work in the engineering
departement (unless your corrector is francophone). When reminded that
the the official policy is bilinguism, the teacher answers that you
can submit your project in french, but that he won't be able to
correct it and that therefore he would need help by a collegue and
that "unfortunately, the mark would be lower (i.e., you fail) because
a lot of the substance is lost in the translation."

Futhermore, I had clases where the teacher was francophone (and didn't
speak english that well), and all the students spoke french except
one. Of course the course was given in english.

Biliguism? I don't think so.

PS: I know students who attended unilingual french universities in
Montreal and presented their thesis in english with no problem.

Somehow, I think that Ottawa U Engineering & Science Departements
reflects very well the situation of bilinguism in Canada... Official
bilinguism does not change the people.
-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Question on English (was: Re: Bof?)
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:41:14 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 687

From article <SBO.92Jul20172210@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca>, by sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca
 Stephane Boucher asks:-

> Can someone explain to me the origin and exact meaning of
> gravy train? I've seen it here and there, but never found a
> clear explanation.
> 
> You can answer by e-mail if you think it is not of general
> interest.
> 

 I'm curious too : I believe it is of general interest.
-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: "stephanie fysh" <stephanie.fysh@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: the new constitutiona
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:42:17 EST
Reply-To: "stephanie fysh" <stephanie.fysh@canrem.com>
Distribution: can
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

JR>I don't understand why it should be OK for Quebec to suspend Charter
JR>guaranteed rights in the name of cultural preservation, but not the other
JR>provinces. For example, why should it be fine for Quebec to pass a sign law
JR>in order create a French exterior in Quebec, yet BC could not do so in
JR>order to create an English exterior in the face of serious Asian
JR>immigration? Does BC's culture not deserve the same considerations as
JR>Quebec's?

All Quebec has to do is to invoke the notwithstanding clause.  *Any*
province can do this under the current Constitutional provisions.

- Stephanie.
---
  SLMR 2.1a  Black holes were created when God tried to divide by zero
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: RACISM???/Access to English schools
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:16:48 GMT
Distribution: can

clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) writes:
# In article <1992Jul20.204009.3372@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
## In article <12330@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
## >In article (Steven C. Potter) writes:
## >]  Well, if they are francophone they have a right to send their children to
## >]  French school for one thing!
## >]  Please, don't tell me the services are not generally available in ROC -
## >]  that is NOT the point. You don't tell people like me that our children 
## >]  must be denied access to what is left of the English school system in this
## >]  province because there aren't enough French schools in the rest of Canada!
## >
## >To do that you need a french school. Having to bus your kids for a
## >hour to get them to a shitty prefab "maison-bobile" is not providing
## >french education. It is merely an attemp to deny the fact that
## >francophones are second-class citizens.
# 
## You didn't answer his question - you merely said something that was
## (at least for the moment) beside the point.
# 
## And some of the offenses are already starting.  In Quebec, anglophones
## ARE being systematically discriminated against.  Not as random acts by
## foolish individuals, but by the government in power.  
# 
# And you didn't address Francois' "maison-bobile" comment.  Certainly
# you would not categorize that as a "random act by foolish individuals."

Portables are a part of life in Ontario schools.  Why is it
discrimination when it's a French school but not when it is
a Catholic or English school?

I'd rather be taught with poor facilities than with a language I
didn't understand.

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui)
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 20:59:18 GMT

In article <2A72DBE8.28D5@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
[ ... ]
>If an anglo in Quebec wishes to reject the sentiments of Quebec
>nationalism by putting up a sign, that should not be illegal in a
>society that still believes itself to be open and democratic. For
>this is not just a matter of "putting on a french face", this is a
>matter of restricting political expression.
           ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
I firmly believe that the fruitful way to achieve concensus and
advancement in a society's thoughts is through vigorous public debate
between all sides, rather than through oppression of some thoughts by
the method of tyranny by the majority. Those who harbor immoral
thoughts should speak out, let others publicly prove them wrong, and in
the process let the greater society see which side is right.
Suppressing those immoral thoughts will never eradicate them.

Michael MY Hui          myhui@bnr.ca           Ottawa Canada
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Quebec income tax
Date: 26 Jul 92 05:39:37 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <25JUL92.18414640.0071@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94000) writes:
[stuff about double tax form for Quebec, once for else, deleted]

>>Before WW II, we were filling only one form, Quebec one.  Quebec was
>>subsidizing Canada indeed.  So, Canada is the one that should not
>>have her separate form and leave this to Quebec.  Any Ministry that
>>should be adjusted to every province should not exist at the Federal level!
>>
>Federal income tax began during World War I, not World War II.  When
>did provincial income tax begin?  And how does this relate to
>"Quebec subsidizing Canada"?
>
>Now, I understand that you're an independantiste, so you want to do
>away with the federal government entirely in Quebec, and only pay
>Quebec income tax.  Fine.  But do I understand correctly that
>even in a federal system, you think there should only be a provincial
>income tax form?  How would this work?  Would there be no federal
>income tax?  If so, how would the federal government be financed?
>Or would the federal tax be computed as a percentage of the provincial
>tax (just the opposite of the system now in use in all provinces
>except Quebec)?  This would inevitably mean different rates of federal
>tax in different provinces.  Surely this would be politically
>unacceptable.  What do you mean by a ministry being "adjusted to
>every province"?
>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

OK, it can be WW I instead of II.  So, _before_ this change (I continue
to think it is WW II since Duplessis get it back according to my memory),
provinces only had Revenu forms.  So, the provinces were subsidizing the
Federal government, all provinces that were member of Canada.  

As for what is a ministry adapted to every province?  What is the
use of federal, after all?  Isn't it to do in one place what is the
same for every body?  Any regional question should be ruled regionally
(i.e. by provincial or municipal administrations).  Each province has
a different budget, so each have a different % of revenue that is
taxed.  This is a regional ruling, so each province shall take care
of it.  In other words, federal shall never try to duplicate regional
role or action.

As for different federal rate.  Federal rate should be computed from
the total revenue, point (dot? period?).

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:16:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.184857.23551@bnr.ca> dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton) writes:
>The French lost the war.  All of Quebec was signed to over to Britian, not
>some of it, all of it.  France unconditionaly surrendered.  Yes, they tried
>to expell them, which was a scummy thing to do, but they also afterwards,
>granted self governing rights to Quebec.  You have the freedom to choose
>because of the British Monarchy, and are not a subjegated people because
>of it (Quebec culture would be dead by now if that was the case).  If you
>don't like the idea, that is your problem.

An individual has a right to speak the language of her choice and retain the
culture of her choice.  That right is not "given" by some inbred potentate
living in a foreign country.  A right is never "given."  A Quebecer is not
"lucky" to be able to lead a normal life because some syphilitic king some
centuries ago decided not to decimate his ancestors.

>She is not some foriegn monarch, she is the Queen of Canada.  That is what
>she is now.  We can't pass laws without her signing (or the govenor general).
>If you want to change that, fine, but that's not the way it is now.  Quebec is
>part of Canada, RIGHT NOW.  Change it, fine, but respect it for what it is
>now. I respect your culture and your right to create your own country (though I
>think it's a bad idea), at least you can do is respect mine.  I am fully aware,
>however, that you will not, as I have yet to see you show respect to anyone on
>Internet.

The Queen of Canada (yes, that's one of her titles) is most definitely a 
foreign monarch.  If she were a native Canadian, she would have been born
here, or at least live here.  As it is, she's the offspring of a German
family who immigrated to England last century.  There's nothing Canadian
about her.

I certainly don't feel any need for an inherited head-of-stateship.  In
fact, I loathe the concept and I am overtly in favour of the elimination of
the last vestiges of colonialism in my homeland.

>BTW, my grandparents are from Germany.

Ah, a land historically ruled by many kings at once.


-- 
------- Stephen M. Webb -------

Ack!  I've accidentally broken my leg!  -- Ed the Happy Clown
From: rstory@eci386.uucp (Robert Story)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:36:28 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc.

In article <skenny.712274436@femto.engr.mun.ca> skenny@femto.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny) writes:
|dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton) writes:
|
|>In article <12388@audetf>, audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
|>|> And why show respect? I'd respect her more if she didn't pretend to be
|>|> the Queen of my country.
|
|>Common courtesy.  Respect for human life.  Or maybe just enough intelligence
|>to realize that she leads the Commonwealth and that if you insult her you
|>insult the Commonwealth, and people generally don't associate with those
|>who insult them.  I can understand wanting you're own country, but to go
|>around insulting everyone that your economic life depends on is just plain
|>stupid.
|
|Well my own personal opinion of the Queen/Monarchy is that it is a bunch
|of BS. The only connection to me with Canada is a part of history and
|that's where it should belong. This is not insulting the Commonwealth
|nor the Monarchy nor Monarchists. On this note, when I saw clips of the
|Canada Day celebrations where new Canadians swearing allegiance to the
|Queen (in Winnipeg I believe), I nearly gagged... what a croc.

Ever seen Americans, with hand over heart, pledging allegiance
to their flag? Now THAT's a croc!  I'd rather swear allegiance
to some ONE than some THING, thank you!

-Robert.

-- 
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Robert.Story@Elegant.COM                      Elegant Communications Inc.
 Tel: +1 416 595 5425                         481 University Av. Suite 602
 Fax: +1 416 595 5439                     Toronto, Ontario; CANADA M5G 2E9
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.followup
Subject: Re: Bill 178
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:57:13 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 554

From article <1992Jul27.143156.16575@pandora.matrox.com>,
 by thood@corvus.matrox.com 
 Thomas Hood writes:-

> 
> It is a big mistake to think that a dictatorship can be stopped
> by a piece of paper.  
>

  Or the tyranny of a paranoid majority?


-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: 28 Jul 92 02:23:19 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 510

From article <12395@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
> Who is Richard Holden?
> -- 
>                                                        Francois Audet

  Who IS Richard Holden?

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory by-elections
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:32:20 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1231

From article <Bs5M2K.40A@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 Denis Beauregard writes:-

> In article <1992Jul28.220909.13011@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>>
>>  Richard Holden was 1 of 4 M.N.A.s elected on the Equality party platform
>>  in the last provincial election here.
>>
>>  his critics, when he pronounced that he believed that the Parti
>>  Quebecois would be the best party to look after the interests of
>>  the English community in an independent Quebec.
>>
>>  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
> 
> 
> ONe reason may be that the PQ governments were those with the largest
> proportion of bilingual deputies, much more than Liberal Party.
> Then, PQ is in better position to listen and understand anglos.


  Somebody! 

          Please!  

                        Help!


            I can't stand up from laughing so much!

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:23:49 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

Who is Richard Holden?
-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: ph3@unixg.ubc.ca (Michael Hamilton (phys 306))
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:02:23 GMT

In <12466@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:


>Well I wouldn't swear allegeance to a Queen of England more than to an
>American flag. They both are, for me, equally "a croc".

Francois, did you ever have to pledge allegience to the Queen? I never did,
and I assume that my situation is common to most Canadians, except possibly
immigrants to Canada. (I don't mean for this to be a snarkey question, I just
want to know.)

-Mike.