HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: BULL@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: an answer to a previous question
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:12:43 -0800
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

        About 2 weeks ago, someone mentioned that they were in a class
which discussed Buddhism, and that another student at that class
commented on how the Buddhis goal of Nirvana seemed to be at odds with
the philosophy of becoming detached to earthly desires. I beleive the
origional poster was asking for other opinions on Nirvana, detachment,
and the comment the other student made.

        I won't presume to speak for any formal orginisation or any
formal Buddhist school of thought. I speak for myself and noone else.

        The comment about detachment and desire for Nirvana was not
completely unjustified. Since I wasn't at that class, I can't say if
the subject was explained clearly enough to answer the comment
properly. Desire for Nirvana can be a trap which arises from
placing too much emphasis on the end product (Nirvana), and not enough
on the means of attaining the state of Nirvana. Then again, we can
fall into the same trap when we stretch detachment beyond "reasonable"
limits. Tatagatha Buddha advised against extreme measures, encouraging
people to find a "middle way". I personally consider Christian
"fundamentalists" to have fallen into this type of trap.

        What we need to do is forget about Nirvana all together. What
is important is to find our "middle way". When we can identify and
follow such a lifestyle, Nirvana will follow as a natural course of
events.


           Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au  OR  bull@monu1.cc.monash.oz
                    DOD# 251  '84 VF 750   Closet Ducatisto
             Disclaimer. If you love your llama, let it lambada.
From: cwt2@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Charles W Tang)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddhist Literature Distribution
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:20:32 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

The Saddharma Cakra Buddhist Association (Miao4-fa3-lun2 Fo2-xue2-hui4)
in Flushing, NY is looking for groups around the US that are interested
in distributing free Buddhist literature (in Chinese and English) in
their vicinity.  Most of these books are printed in and shipped from
Taiwan.

For interested organizations, please contact me at <cwt2.cunixa.cc.
columbia.edu>.

We need to know the following about your organization and your target
readers:

1) what language(s) do your readers speak?  Chinese / English / Both
2) how many books (of each title) do you need?
3) do you belong to a related organization, or are you thinking about
   doing this privately?  If you belong to a related organization, what 
   is the full name and address of your organization?
4) your name, address, telephone number, and e-mail address.

Since we don't know how many interested parties will be contacting
us, and since the book supply is limited, we can't promise that
every group will get what it asks for.  But since this will be an
ON-GOING project, we'll keep the list of all interested groups
for future distributions.

Thank you!

-Charles


*** Om Ma-Ni Pad-Me Hung *** | "Hey, Charles, have you been 'waiting' all
============================ |  your life?" -- Thao D. "the creature" Vo
   Charles Wei-Ting Tang     | ===========================================
cwt2@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu  | 201 W.72nd St.,#8J, NYC 10023  212/580-5609
From: prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna
Date: 21 Nov 1992 16:20:18 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1ee8vjINN6bf@sandman.caltech.edu>, bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
 
> Hinduism accommodates within its folds a mass of diverse beliefs and
> philosophies, even some very contradictory ones. Remember that
> the unabashedly atheist and materialist philosophy of Charvaka
> ("Rinang kritva ghritang pibet ... " etc) is also a valid constituent 
> of Hinduism just as sects professing blind faith are. 


Indeed. The greatest achievement of "Hinduism" is its sanctioning 
of free speculation. 

> -Sayan Bhattacharyya.
 

RKP
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Divine Tricksters
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:15:23 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Although I can`t remember details, in the last section of his marvelous
book, _The King and the Corpse_, Heinrich Zimmer offers an exposition of
a story cycle he calls a "Romance of the Goddess."  Here it is the Divine
Feminine that stirs things up, disturbs, and interupts meditations.

Without her, this story would have gone, "Then Shiva meditated deeply 
through the rest of this cycle or creation.  The end.", ie, not a story.

Morgan Mussell       mmussell@mcd.intel.com
From: sparta!asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:29:06 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

| The real resistance to enlightenment is to remain in the well 
| and refuse the rope.
			 -Roger Adams

..while imagining that one is not really in the well, so what use would
one have for a rope anyway...

To assert that *all* spiritual methods are self-defeating:

	(Effort = Clinging = Close, but no cigar!)

reduces the whole idea of the spiritual path to a pointless abstraction.
I have nothing but admiration for anyone who is completely certain that 
he's already arrived and is totally satisfied with his life as it is today. 
It must be great to already be perfect! Me, I'm still looking for that
damned cigar...
		    -Alan
From: rg@earth.sarnoff.com (Rajamani Ganesh)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna
Date: 19 Nov 1992 21:34:46 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1ebq7uINNs8s@sandman.caltech.edu>, ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
|> In article <1dh964INN7m3@sandman.caltech.edu> prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth) writes:
|> >In article <1dfljmINNrpr@sandman.caltech.edu>, ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
|>   
|> >> Vedas are said to have been revealed by the Supreme God, Vishnu at the
|> >> beginning of creation. Hence, it is erroneous to consider vedas as
|> >> ordinary literature and try to fix a date regarding their origin. Even
|> >> historians agree that Vedas were passed from generation to generation 
|> >> verbally, without being put into written text form. The written text
|> >> came much later. Since Vedas are revealed by the Supreme Vishnu, they
|> >> are both indestructible and infallible. 
|> > 
|> >
|> >Truth is more important than (blind) faith to a Hindu. Prove
|> >your assertions. 
|> >
|> >>  Anand 
|> >>  ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
|> > 
|> >
|> >RKP
|> >
|>  
|>  Ever heard of the story of Shabari, in the Ramayan? Shabari was 
|>  told by her guru Rishi Matang to just keep praying God and
|>  He would visit her one day in the form (avatar) of Rama. She
|>  did exactly that with complete "blind" faith in her guru's 
|>  words and Rama did visit her ashram, in his search for Sita. 
|> 
|>  How about the story of Dhruva?
|>  Dhruva, a mere kid,  went to the forest with the purpose of 
|>  getting a vision of God. Devarshi Narada met the boy and instructed 
|>  him to chant the mantra, "Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaaya". Dhruva
|>  did exactly that with "blind" faith and devotion and the Supreme
|>  Lord Vishnu appeared before him.
|> 


The word UNCONDITIONAL seems more appropriate than "blind"

Be Happy
Ganesh
From: srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Informal group of net people interested in Sufi work
Date: 18 Nov 1992 15:29:14 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: Sufi

Dear friends,

I recently posted a note on several newsgroups requesting information
about Sufi - related resources on the Internet.  Nobody could point
me to any specific resources, but a number of people expressed interest
in finding such resources.

I am going to be sending out a note to people who express an interest
which contains the names and e-mail addresses of others who are also
interested in Sufi work.  Since I am a relative beginner on the Internet,
this note will be just a typed in list of names and e-mail addresses.
I do not know how to start an official "list"/"newsgroup", nor would
I have the time, energy, knowledge, or wisdom to do so at this point.

Please be advised that many people consider the Sufi path ("Sufism")
to be exclusively a part of Islam.  I have tremendous respect for the
religion of Islam, and for those who work solely within that framework.
However, my own beliefs are not based solely on Islam, and I personally
do not consider myself a Muslim.  If you are interested exclusively 
in Islamic Sufism, I suggest you contact the newsgroup soc.religion.islam
rather than responding to this message.

If you are interested in "joining" this totally informal group of others
on the Internet interested in Sufi work, please send me your name and
e-mail address.  I will then forrward it to the others who have sent me
the same request.  Be aware that there is no control whatsoever on what,
if anything, will be done with your name and address - nor any control
on any aspect of any discussion of Sufi topics which may ensue.  I suggest
that you try, in your communications, to be aware of the medium that is
being used (e.g. that a communication which goes to one person on the
Internet may not necessarily end up staying just with that one person).

May your life be filled with peace and joy.

Habib Rose
(aka Steve Rose: srose@usc.edu)
From: bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Origin of the Vedas (Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:26:30 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1ebq7uINNs8s@sandman.caltech.edu> ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
>In article <1dh964INN7m3@sandman.caltech.edu> prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth) writes:
>>In article <1dfljmINNrpr@sandman.caltech.edu>, ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
>  



<Anand> Vedas are said to have been revealed by the Supreme God, Vishnu at the
<Anand> beginning of creation. Hence, it is erroneous to consider vedas as
<Anand> ordinary literature and try to fix a date regarding their origin. 

<Ravi> Prove  your assertions. 




<Anand> Now, regarding the origin of the vedas, I quote the verse 


<Anand> Narayanaparaa Vedaa Devaa Narayanaangajaah
<Anand> Narayanaparaa Lokaa Narayanaparaa Makhaah   ||

<Anand>                               Shrimad Bhagavatam
<Anand>                               Skandha 2, Ch. 5, Verse 15

<Anand> Translation: {Brahma Said} The real cause or origin of the
<Anand> Vedas is Narayana (or Krishna). The real topic described by
<Anand> the Vedas is Narayana. The other Gods are different parts of 
<Anand> the same God Narayana. The various heavenly planets are meant
<Anand> for (realizing) Narayana. The real enjoyer of the offerings in
<Anand> sacrifices is Narayana. 


<Anand> Supporting this verse, is the sutra (formula) of Vedanta Sutras:
                                                         -------  

<Anand>        Shastra-yonitvaat

<Anand> The Supreme Lord (Vishnu) is the source of all scriptures.    

______________________


This is ridiculous ! Anand, you are using the Vedas ( well Vedanta,
that is the Upanishadas, are a part of the Vedas, aren't they ?) to
prove that the Vedas are of divine origin. Do you realize the fallacy
of recursion that this is leading you to ?

I have always felt that the Vedas are best read as literature and
not as religion. They )particularly the Rig Veda) represent the
joy and wonder our ancestors felt at the strange and wonderful 
rhythm of the alteration of night and day, the cycle of the seasons,
and even the intoxicating power of wine (remember the ode to Soma?)

Actually much of the Rig Veda are but thinly disguised hymns to nature.
They are as fresh as the cave paintings of Altamira .

-Sayan Bhattacharyya
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 19 Nov 1992 21:35:27 -0800
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1egkegINNaho@sandman.caltech.edu>, kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish) writes:
> 

> 	If the issue of spiritual materialism is old hat for you, then
> my only criticism is that it is conspicuously absent from your
> arguments thus far.  I think any discussion of effort-on-the-path
> needs to take such issues into consideration in order to be a balanced
> discourse.  Would you be willing to address this point directly ?
> While I am not versed in the writings of Paramahansa Yogananda, I
> would be surprised if he didn't talk of such things, even if he didn't
> refer to them as spiritual materialism.

Your reference to "right effort" is quite correct. Self-ambitious effort
is just as much a function of ego-consciousness as is laziness. Strenuous
effort just causes tension and works against progress. What is called for
is devotion and right effort in meditation and right activity, never becoming 
one-sided and always making use of the common sense God gave us. We are in
full agreement on "right effort" verses "wrong effort" (including no effort).
One will loose her/his way on the spiritual path if she/he is after personal
gain, fame, looking to set up shop as a guru, uses spiritual powers for some
egotistical reason, etc. I should say however, that judging from many of 
the posts in this newsgroup, that I did not perceive any danger of people
engaging in too much effort or wrong effort or _any_ effort ;-) which was
why I posted the idea of equating "no effort" with "clinging" to delusion.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs No Effort (Lazy Way)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 09:29:41 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Lately, [as before in "sre" and countless times before elsewhere],
the "horns of Rhino," also known as doubt, about effort versus no effort
has overtaken our intellects. Of course, I can't say anything thing on
this that has not been said before [to resolve this dilemma]. In fact the
doubt arises in the mind and it is resolved in the mind also. For example,
so much doubting and flaming words appear on the screen; but the screen
remains unaffected by all this, as the screen has no mind.

On the other hand, posing questions, or providing comments are easier
for the mind. Therefore, I will take the easier path (a lazy path?)
and pose some questions here.

	* Can one sit in front of a plate full of a good meal,
	  and satisfy one's hunger with no effort whatsoever?
	  Does it happen in nature?
	
	* Does one believe truly that there is a way called
	  "the lazy way?"
	
	* Has one encountered "true laziness (not doing anything,
	  mentally and physically; and in perfect consciousness)?
	
	* Doesn't talking about the "lazy way" require an "effort"
	  by the intellect [however easy it may appear by the force
	  of habit]?
	
	* Is "the path of laziness" another wishful thought?
	
	* If the gods become lazy, will the unverse function?
	
	* How many times one's efforts [toward anything; not necessarily
	  spiritual] made one totally effortless (at least in appearance)?
	  Walking? Driving a car? a bicycle? Typing?
	
	* How many times one's laziness got one to make a lot of effort
	  later on? Anyone remember goofing up for the entire term and
	  then making heroic efforts to study for the final exams?
	
	* Could effort become effortless?
	
	* Could effortless[ness] require one's best efforts?
	

Well, that seems to have required no effort on my part.
Thanks to all sre readers, including those who will make
no effort to read this post. And those who will make a lot
of effort to read, who knows if their effort will be a wasted
effort or an effort well worth their effort?

With effortless effort,

---raj (or is it really a "jar?")
From: Raghu Seshadri <seshadri@hpindda.cup.hp.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Divine Tricksters
Date: 14 Nov 92 01:56:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45965
Distribution: world
Organization: ----

>From dorothy@cvedc.prime.com Wed Nov 11 10:04:40 1992

-This discussion of Indo-European mythology brings to mind a question
-that occurred to me the other day.  Most cultures seem to have a divine
-trickster, who is often also a messenger and wisdom-bringer.  In
-Native American traditions it's Coyote, in the Mediterranean complex it's
-Thoth/Hermes.  What Hindu deities are tricksters and teachers of magic?

-Dorothy Mokuren Robinson                           dorothy@cvedc.prime.com

	This is such a vast subject that one doesn't know where to
	begin; countless stories detail a divine or semi-divine
	person who outwardly tricks or brings discomfort; when the
	true purpose is revealed, he is seen as a messenger of
	wisdom, or beneficence..

	One of the most popular is the sage Narada who plays the cymbals
	or the Veena as he sojourns thru the 3 worlds; his arrival 
	usually signifies some trouble. For instance it was he who
	reveals to the tyrant Kamsa that Kamsa's beloved sister Devaki
	will bear a son who will kill him. The evil king immediately
	imprisons his sister .... read the story of Krishna to find out 
	how it all ends.

	Again, Narada was on the scene when the sage Valmiki temporarily
	lost his cool and cursed a hunter who had disturbed the peace
	near his abode. The demigod then explains how it presages the
	compilation of the grandest story in the history of India's
	civilization - the Ramayana.

	The elephant headed god Ganesha also has mischievous propensities; he
	plays the role of a busybody or a smart aleck in several stories;
	he uses the fact that everyone finds him cute and adorable to
	have his way against their "better" judgment. Only, when it
	all ends, it turns out that it was all for the best.

	If there is any further interest, I will post some of these
	stories .. In Hinduism, the "stories" are much grander than
	the word "story" implies - they are metaphors for all the
	psychic undercurrents in our subconscious, they are parables
	carrying metaphysical truths, they have defined the values
	of society and they are pointers to unravelling the knots that
	bind the mind.

	raghu
From: ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna
Date: 17 Nov 1992 14:03:42 -0800
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1dh964INN7m3@sandman.caltech.edu> prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth) writes:
>In article <1dfljmINNrpr@sandman.caltech.edu>, ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
  
>> Vedas are said to have been revealed by the Supreme God, Vishnu at the
>> beginning of creation. Hence, it is erroneous to consider vedas as
>> ordinary literature and try to fix a date regarding their origin. Even
>> historians agree that Vedas were passed from generation to generation 
>> verbally, without being put into written text form. The written text
>> came much later. Since Vedas are revealed by the Supreme Vishnu, they
>> are both indestructible and infallible. 
> 
>
>Truth is more important than (blind) faith to a Hindu. Prove
>your assertions. 
>
>>  Anand 
>>  ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
> 
>
>RKP
>
 
 Ever heard of the story of Shabari, in the Ramayan? Shabari was 
 told by her guru Rishi Matang to just keep praying God and
 He would visit her one day in the form (avatar) of Rama. She
 did exactly that with complete "blind" faith in her guru's 
 words and Rama did visit her ashram, in his search for Sita. 

 How about the story of Dhruva?
 Dhruva, a mere kid,  went to the forest with the purpose of 
 getting a vision of God. Devarshi Narada met the boy and instructed 
 him to chant the mantra, "Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaaya". Dhruva
 did exactly that with "blind" faith and devotion and the Supreme
 Lord Vishnu appeared before him.

 Now, regarding the origin of the vedas, I quote the verse 

 Narayanaparaa Vedaa Devaa Narayanaangajaah
 Narayanaparaa Lokaa Narayanaparaa Makhaah   ||
                        
                                 Shrimad Bhagavatam
                                 Skandha 2, Ch. 5, Verse 15

 Translation: {Brahma Said} The real cause or origin of the
 Vedas is Narayana (or Krishna). The real topic described by
 the Vedas is Narayana. The other Gods are different parts of 
 the same God Narayana. The various heavenly planets are meant
 for (realizing) Narayana. The real enjoyer of the offerings in
 sacrifices is Narayana. 

 Supporting this verse, is the sutra (formula) of Vedanta Sutras:

          Shastra-yonitvaat

 The Supreme Lord (Vishnu) is the source of all scriptures.    

 Anand
From: litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Nat'l Mediocre Soc.)
Subject: Surreptitious Demuffining...
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:06:02 GMT

Okay, I'll admit.  I was sneaky.  I demuffined Zoe without admitting that 
that was my demuffining.  She called me on it and tortured me into posting 
a retraction.  After she noticed I was enjoying the torture, she found a way
to convince me. (And am I ever convinced.) So, here I am in an quasi-offic-
ial demuffining post.  Hello all, I'm here now.   I'm out of the shadows.
I'm not quite out of the closet, but I'm out of the shadows.  (But I'll
dicuss that in a later post...)
	*HUGS!*    *SQUEEZES*    *USE YOUR IMAGINATION*

						Steve



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| "Life is far too brief , Existence is  |
| Stephen C. Litterst           |  meaningless, and the Universe has no  |
| kyraan@bach.udel.edu           \ purpose. That's the way it is, folks."|
|_litterst@freezer.cns.udel.edu___\_________ -Allan Dean Foster__________|
From: tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: crackpots in the bi group
Date: 22 Nov 1992 22:19:32 -0500
Organization: P.L.T.S., North Plainfield, New Jersey, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: plts.uucp

In <1992Nov22.015150.25845@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:

>Why not just run meetings by Robert's Rules of Order?

Robert's Rules are fine for business meetings (and that can be debated)
but are HORRID for discussion groups.  RR'O are for efficient
meetings.  Koosh Rules are for discussion groups that actually help
people.

Follow the thread, eh?

Tom
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@plts.uucp (home) -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work)
"Higgy higgy forward, higgy higgy higgy higgy higgy shake!  Yeeaaah!"

1004211322700352222
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: latarra@camelot.bradley.edu (Lisa Ehren)
Subject: Re: No subject
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:32:16 GMT

In <1992Nov22.200843.20381@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
>And now I'm going to get demuffined! Serves me right.
>... Might as well lie back and enjoy it ...

Found one!  <not that he was hiding real well...:)>

Pounce, snuggle, cuddle slurp slurp, hug-hug-hug-hug.

Mind if I lie back with you and run my hands through your hair while you're
enjoying your demuffining?  :)

Welcome.
--
He got up from the couch and stared out the window at a far-off place
inside himself that she couldn't see.

Fuzzies for anyone who wants them - New shipments every Thursday.