HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jlevitt@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mortiana)
Subject: Re: Pagan-Christians(was Re: Animal Sacrifice (was: Re: Raising
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 07:46:43 GMT

nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>Now, stop me if I am wrong but:
>		1) To be a Satanist, you have to believe in Satan(Lucifer, the 
>		   devil)
NOWHERE in the bible, (christian bible, that is) is there a single mention of
the devil. Also, Lucifer was no ugly, red horned beast; Lucifer was a fallen
angel of god and was/is as beautiful as any of the other of god's angels; he 
just had a slightly twisted look on his face.

>		2) To believe in Satan, you have to beleive Christ(or God) of
>		   the Bible.
very true. however, according to the jews, christ means messiah, the end of the 
world, their saving grace, etc. 

>		3) If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian.
read above statement.

>		4) Therefore, Satanist are Christians(or Anti-Christians if you
>		   prefer).
This is also true. Since satan was a creation of christians to help scare
the locals into believing that pagans were cruel, evil peoples. *grins*
And, since only christians believe in Lucifer/satan/THE devil, this statement
is true

>		5) Then how can Satanist be pagans?
Satanists cannot be pagans, unless they are pagan-christians.
>                   
>		6) Or are there just a lot of pagan-christians running around
>		   that I don't know about?
actually, there are quite a few pagan-christian types. (my friend who quoted all of this to me is one) they are the kind who believe in the christian god, but
not all of the christian dogma! (sound familiar?)  

>Azure
>"Me, Myself, and I are three different people."

Mortiana
a.k.a. julie levitt
a.k.a. Opal

general disclaimer: i am pagan, tending to wiccan shamanism (i combined them, 
not unusual) and do not believe in the christian god nor THE devil, nor Lucifer,
etc...these previous statements are fact. i (and a good christian-pagan type friend of mine) has done some research into this and have come up with these facts.
i recently quoted all this to a person trying to bible thump/fundie me and they
shut him up really quick.
>
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Discordianism (was: "What does PAGAN mean anyway?")
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:00:11 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Schmorganization

In article <loren.27@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
(Loren Miller) writes:
>Eris may or may not have drawn a distinction between creative and 
>destructive chaos. As far as I know, the only mention of Eris is in the 
>prologue to the Trojan War, and some scholars have claimed it was merely a 
>mispelling of erinyes.

Nope.  Check your classical references, and Hesiod's _Theogeny_.

>Anyway, I would tend to agree with Tim's unvoiced 
>assertion that Eris is a trickster figure [...]
>
>When you look at other trickster figures, such as Loki 
>(another of Tim's favorite characters), you discover that they were all over 
>the map. They did good things. They did bad things. They did stupid, self-
>destructive things.

Yep.  Trickster is not someone you want to meet.  In male or female form,
this deity represents the whimsical cruelty of the universe.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Communications and User Interface Engineer
{apple!sun}!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"Something was badly amiss with the spiritual life of the planet, thought
 Gibreel Farishta.  Too many demons inside people claiming to believe in
 God." -- Salman Rushdie, THE SATANIC VERSES
From: IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:19:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: MAINE.92106.191952IO81409
 <29E6093F.5262@noiro.acs.uci.edu> <12624@pogo.wv.tek.com>
 <29EB658C.680@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
Organization: University of Maine System

the aquatic ape theory is, umm... a tad fringey at best...
not one that is taken seriously, or even mentioned unless
the professor has feminist leanings, in anthropological or
archaeological circles.  (and do please give us anthros
credit for ahving some idea what we are talking about, we've
spent years on this stuff!)
                                       -ailsa
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:40:25 GMT

nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>I got some questions.(I can here you all panicing now!)

>	1) I have heard that Jesus Christ was originally a Celtic Myth (maybe 
>	about Merlin) that was perverted-i mean modified- by the Mediteranian
>	culture(s) for some reason.  Does anyone have any facts, speculation,
>	or ideas?

See the other responses about Middle Eastern/Mediterranean Myths.

>	2) I have been reading "LLyweLLens(sp?) Guide for the Individual
>	Wiccan."  Now its say that their are a Goddess and a God(no mention 
>	of Horned or not) and that it doesn't matter what you name them.
>	I cam deal with that, But I does not mention any Child( like the Sun
>	Child) in the book.  Other books I read have mentioned Him in various
>	form, but I am not sure where he fits in the plan.  Is he important
>	or nessecary to Wicca?  I feel he should be because many religions
>	have a Son god.  I would welcome your opinions and knowlege.

I think you mean _Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner_ by Scott
Cunningham.  It is published by Llewellyn, but does not represent anyone
but Scott.  It is a nice, fluffy, primer on Wicca.  If you would like a 
better (more detailed, deeper digging) source, try _The Spiral Dance_ by
Starhawk.  There is no One True Wicca, so different sources will approach
it differently--some versions of Wicca will have the Sun Child, others won't.
Personally, the Sun is a Goddess in my version of Wicca (Grian, the Irish
word for the sun, is feminine).  But my mythology and imagery changes from
day to day.

>	3) Any opinions on this book(above)?  Are there any better books I
>	should read?

Well, I offered another suggestion above.  I hesitate to say that one of these
is better than the other--the each have their value.  Cunningham may be fluffy,
but humans often need primers before diving into something like _SD_.  Also,
the ritual forms in _SD_ are for groups, not Solitaries.  Both together comprise
a good foundation.

>	4) What is a good source of Druid/Celtic history and mythos?

There are no really good sources.  Part of this is that there are no written
records of druids except the notations of their enemies.  As for Celtic myth,
try the Mabiniogion for Welsh myth, and there are some collections of Irish
stories available as well.  Mostly one picks it up in bits and pieces, creating
a pattern which means something to oneself.

>	5) Anyone know anything about the Land Of Summer Twilight?

The Summer Lands is one name for the Wiccan afterworld (though I believe that
the name arrives from Theosophy).  The name I use is the Land of Youth--
Tir n'Og.  That is the old Irish name for the place the Tuatha de Daanan 
retreated to.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
               --Pug and Bran
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Psychic Hotlines
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:38:40 GMT

cpearson@ducvax.auburn.edu (MISTYEYES) writes:
: Hello again all..
: 
:   Do these psychic hotline numbers and Ad's on Tv bother
: anyone else but me??? I seem to find it hard to believe taht
: they could be geniune...
: 
: just curious.
: 
: With Blessings..
: Colleen

I just figure that if they are really psychic, then they will know who
wants/needs to communicate with them. They therefore would call the
person collect and the person would gladly accept the charges. All the
ad is needed for is to let the people know that they are available, so
they will start thinking about psychic communication.

In other words, if they don't call me at a time when I could use their
help, then they don't have great enough abilities to be of use to me.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Seeking Dianic Witches
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 19:16:56 GMT


Solitary (male) Dianic Witch seeks
likeminded Pagans, Witches and Goddess
folk for E-mail and/or conversations
here in Usenet.  Do we have any
Daughters (or Sons) of Aradia reading
this?

Merry Meet, Blessed Be all.
-- 
"Imagine a war in which everyone won..."
Pet Shop Boys, "DJ Culture"
-----------------------------------------
Ward Chanley - bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: jon@cyclone.MITRE.org (J. E. Shum)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Psychic Hotlines
Date: 3 Apr 92 01:07:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Apr3.010754.13825
Organization: The MITRE Corp. McLean Va.
Originator: jon@cyclone


In article <2APR199214411011@ducvax.auburn.edu>, cpearson@ducvax.auburn.edu (MISTYEYES) writes:
> Hello again all..
> 
>   Do these psychic hotline numbers and Ad's on Tv bother
> anyone else but me??? I seem to find it hard to believe taht
> they could be geniune...
> 
> just curious.
> 
> With Blessings..
> Colleen

I suspect that the psyhics are as real as the sex is on the sex lines.

:)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Re: Warfare and women
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 15:37:41 GMT

Janis, I'm answering the last thing first....

>I'm interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that we have
>instinctual fears of only the two things you mentioned.

Most any text on early infant development, from Piaget on, usually
mentions this fact. It also goes across species; most any mammal that
you name shares at least these two instinctive responses. I should
also add that I have left out other, less strong instincts (such as
the one that causes an infant to turn toward the cheek that you gently
touch with a fingertip, since it is tied up in the nursing response).

While it is true that mothers protect their young, with their lives if
necessary, it is NOT considered instinctive behavior. If it were
instinctive, it would be species wide, and there would be absolutely
NO instances of child abuse by the mother (and we know that this is
not the case).

I also don't think that protection of the young equates to warfare by
women. I would kill without hesitation if something threatened my
children (those who are mine in spirit as well as my own daughter),
but I know for a fact that I cannot lift a hand to defend myself
against physical attack. I don't think I have ever used violence as a
way to achieve my goals, which is part of the definition of warfare.

Lynda
-- 
shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
TRW, One Space Park Drive, R2/2062, Redondo Beach, CA
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: a million apologies
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:03:41 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

I'm very sorry for the wasted bandwidth due to that re-re-re-posting of
the hair article to the net.  Our server was down today and might not be
working all that well even now.  I had no idea that it had posted so
many times.

Sorry, all.

Blessings,
Janis
From: IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Warfare and women
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:13:45 GMT
 <29EC40D6.3D88@deneva.sdd.trw.com>
Organization: University of Maine System

people are talking about matriarchies as if they existed.
please, people, historical matriarchies are still pure
speculation!  and sjoo and mor's book is NOT exactly a
good source for anything but mythmaking.  not that
mythmaking is not valuable, but you can't use it for
anthrpological theory.  eisler isn't a whole lot better.
neat, but VERY shaky once you do some footnote tracking.

                                 -ailsa

p.s. "woman as a species" was deliberate.  people who say that
women are more peaceful than men always seem to me to be treating
women as if they were a different species.  i contend that we are
neither, and we'll just have to learn to like it...
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (Doug Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:24:04 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <17637@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
writes:
>What does this newsgroup have to do with the worship of 
>Greek Gods?

I hate to dissapoint you, but the Greek Gods and Goddesses are Paganistic
Gods, and are commonly used in ritual by many Pagans.

Krikket  --  a.k.a. Doug Krick  --  krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us   

Supercalifragilisticsadomasochisim   !   Disclaimers?  We don't need no
   -- Need I say anything else?      !   stinkin' discalimers!
From: nc313127@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: UP 18
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:03:43 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

Greetings,

	I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to My "Jesus was a Pagan"
artical.  It not only gave me info on the subject, but deminstated net-tangency
syndrom.  Some of what I learned came more from responses to responses to
responses than from actual responce to my artical.  Keep up the good work.

Azure
"Who's on third?"
"No! Who is on first."
"I don't Know."
"Third base!"
From: burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Date: 9 Apr 92 10:58:48 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia
Originator: burns@latcs2.lat.oz.au


in article <29E37CFB.7008@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
 cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:


> The Celts certainly had myths about gods dying and being raised up three
> days later, and gods having sons that were also them

We did? I thought I knew the territory, but I can't place any myth
that exactly accords with this. To the point where I was quite
vehement sometime last year, that there had to have been such a
god, that he must have been a Moon God, and that he must have been
part of a sacrificial mystery lost to history.

Although there are heroes who sojourned in Annwm, say Pwyll or
Arthur, the closest I can come to a god who died and rose up
again is Llew LLaw Gyffes.

The Norse had Baldur and Odin, but they're not quite the same either.

Am I missing a bet?

* <- a mental spangle for your quilt, mam'selle :-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jonathan Burns        |  The Iron Code in Core Above
                      |     is binding on our race,
burns@latcs1.lat.au.oz|  And so you drop him in his tracks
Computer Science Dept |     and reassign his space!     - April Fool Kipling
La Trobe University   | parody in a forgotten issue of Datamation -
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:33:35 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.175412.10491@muddcs.claremont.edu> ileicht@jarthur.claremont.edu (Spiff) writes:
>> Even a
>> quick look through the sagas will show that when menfolk are slow to exact
>> revenge for insults, or reluctant to take up weapons to solve their
>> differences (what we in the modern day would see as a prudent and reasonable
>> course of action and would encourage men to do) Viking women would taunt
>> and agitate and finally shame their men into going and killing their
>> enemies, rather than urging them to seek better solutions.
>
>
>Just one thought...... unless I am mistaken wasn't most of the written
>tradition written by men? If that is true it would make sense that the men
>would exxagerate the activities of their wives.. much like men bitch about
>women whever we can when they aren't around...
>
>Just because it is written as so in the myths doesn't mean that it neccesarily
>happened that way. 
>
>I am not sure if matriarchies were peaceful or not... I am of the pre-disposi
>tion that they were more peaceful than patriarchies.. while I have no 
>scientific evidence for this... I do have a few possible intuitions..
>

I can't presume to argue that matrifocal societies were perfect, but we
do have evidence that they were more peaceful than what we have, for
whatever reasons.  I'm not trying to say that women are more moral than
men; the reasons why these societies were quieter are legion, and have
to do with stuff like lower population, too.

But, let's look at the facts.  FOr about 40,000 years prior to the last
3,000 there were lots of matristic cultures.  And for about 40,000
years prior to the last 3,000 there was no large-scale slaughter in the
name of any god/dess, and no large-scale environmental destruction.
It's not that men are fucked-up, but when they try to deny the
importance of the feminine, then things tend to get that way.  the
matristic cultures, it seem to me when I read bout them, acknowledged
the importance of BOTH.  And THAT'S what we need.  

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: Berkeley Morris 1992 Performance Schedule
Organization: Hug A Bunny Today
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:15:56 GMT

Yes, I agree -- morris dancing is great! I used to watch a morris dance group
in my old hometown in KY at all the outdoor fairs. Anybody know if there's
anything like this happening soon in Boston?


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Marty Hale-Evans            marty@world.std.com             JKRS85C on PRODIGY
"Walking to school this morning I worshipped all things. You might say that's 
warped! Did I just forget about pollution, prejudice, and how there's people in
a war?????????? Excuse me but I know that! Can I help it if right this second
I get something incredible?"     -- Maybonne

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: an725@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul L. Fortman, Jr.)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Reply-To: an725@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul L. Fortman, Jr.)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 04:14:35 GMT


This is in regard to "Jesus was a pagan" part of the original subject.

From what I know about Jesus I would say He was most likely was a 
pagan.  It's too bad that some "christians" have done terrible things
in the name of Jesus.

*Paul

Have you hugged a tree today?
-- 
fortmapl@dayton.bitnet
fortmapl@udavxb.oca.udayton.edu
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Friday, 17 Apr 1992 12:28:08 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sacrifice

"the dying animal sacrifices itself..."?????  BULLSHIT!
go to a slaughterhouse, see just how willing the victims
are, then come talk to us.  this willigness philosophy
is all very beautiful and wonderful, but it lacks contact
with reality.

i'm not sure how much bearing animal rights has to paganism,
but REALLY!  can anybody but me see the inanity of this
statement?
                                    -ailsa
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ai210@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Josh Steier)
Subject: Re: Herbals Request: Stomach Nausea
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 04:17:50 GMT


The cannabinols are almost certianly transmitted through the 
placenta. Cocaine and opiate alkaloids do transmit in large numbers.


If you have a need for medical marihuana, slowly cooking the marijuana
in butter, than extracting as much lkiquid as possible will avoid the
possibility of inhaling smoke byproducts.

This recipie came from Diseased Pariah News, a California based
AIDS activist magazine. People with AIDS often use it to lessen the
lethalness of the side effects of chemotherapy.


be well
josh
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Polytheism (was: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?)
Date: 16 Apr 92 04:12:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr16.041247.14278
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


Re: Henotheists vs. Polytheists

I would say that those practicing 
Matrifocal traditions like the Dianic
hold true to this concept (loosely
defined as the worship of one God 
but not at the exclusion of others).

I myslef do not question the reality
of the Horned God, or even Allah or
Yaweh for those who find it comforting
to worship them; I simply worship
someone else.

But the co-called "duality traditions"
all of which originate in the revival
of modern Wicca with the work of
Gerald Gardner (although most trad-
itions depart signifigantly on points
of doctrine or ritual) in term of 
a polytheistic or dualistic conception
of Diety...i.e. there -HAS- to be
a High Priest to represent the Horned/
Sun God and there -has- to be a 
Priestess for the Goddess.  No matter
how authentic in Lore or ritual the
Celtic, Norse. Welsh, etc. etc.
"traditionalists" feel they are, this
"matched pair" concept is entirely
a gardnerian invention (which doesn't
invalidate the idea out of hand)...
-- 
"Imagine a war in which everyone won..."
Pet Shop Boys, "DJ Culture"
-----------------------------------------
Ward Chanley - bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:37:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA


Although at first glance, one may think this recommendation to be
totally off the subject of this group, but think again....

There is a book endtitled, "Coming to Our Senses" by Morris Berman.
It's about the development of Western culture (I'd probably call it
philosophy), but makes some interesting points about religion,
witchcraft, warfare, etc....  A lot of what everyone seems to be
talking about lately.  His ideas are pretty well thought out, and
convincing (although to varying degrees for each person, I'm sure).
From: edberg@zodiac.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: psychic hair hotline
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:20:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: zodiac.1992Apr6.162042.1
Organization: Rutgers University Computing Services

Hi again!

What have I got in my pocket?
-Hands?
-String or nothing?
-A very dangerous unadorned golden ring destined for a volcano?

On the HAIR thing-
When to cut it?
Don't. Let it grow. Singe the ends if you have to.
And for those of you plagued with knots, a piece of advice:
Comb it out before you wash it.
it makes all the difference.
And keep it braided when not in use. (magical or otherwise)

Lisa
From: loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Summary: not really on topic
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:00:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Wharton Marketing

In article <4413@radian.UUCP> markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
>When one is hasseled for years, one has, it seems to me,
>a right to be touchy, and to defend oneself. I, for another example, am a 
>product of the 60's, and leftist. Should I not be touchy, when "politically
>correct" people tell me I'm out of date, and that I was mistaken back then?

imho, defending oneself presumes that one is being attacked.
-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Shoes are the most basic prerequisite for liberty
Newsgroups: alt.pagan