HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts, homophobia, fun mavins, etc.
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:37:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.181418.13612@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>To the readers of the Rialto, greetings.
>
>In reply to many of the (copious) postings following up the thread of
>conversation concerning same-sex consorts.

I bow to the Lady's courteous comments and her erudition--both in
general and on the subject at hand.

Two points:

It has been pointed out that life isn't fair--indeed, the Society is
*fairer* in many ways than the society.  (I think that's an excuse in
this case--though a valid one.  Not correct--just valid.)

There is what I consider a reasonable precedent for changing SCA
policy on the subject under discussion.  To wit--for some years, women
were not allowed to fight in the Society on the grounds that women did
not fight in period.  This was changed (over the strenuous objections
of the then Society Marshall) when documentation was presented that
women *did* fight (fairly regularly) in period.  That documentation
should be in the Lord Laurel's files.  Should analogous documentation
be presented that same-sex couples ruled in period, I think many more
SCA folk would support a change in policy and that the policy would
almost certainly change.


It is not my wish to dash hopes, but I would point out that in a world
where SCA folk have had to scrape SCA stickers off their cars out of
fear (sorry about the plurals--I *have* been told of a specific
incident), there are topics on which SCA official policy is wise to be
cowardly about.

I have generally refrained from entering this specific discussion
because I am not sure in my own mind what a right course is (let alone
*the* right course).  No matter *what* is decided, some people are
going to feel hurt--or worse.  We may strive to have winners and
losers or we may have losers only.

I know which way I will vote (mundanely), but I'm not sure the
direction the SCA should take.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Same Sex Consorts
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:14:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.183902.4355@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Hal Ravn wrote:
>  Only *one* current Board member is from California--and he isn't
>  terribly active.  (Though I grant everyone that he's been around the
>  Society a *long* time . . .)
>
>Two.  Duke Siefried von Hoflichkeith, and Viscountess Caitriona ne Bhrian.
>      Walnut Creek, CA                    Stanton, CA

My thanks for the correction and my apologies for being out of date.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Scholarly journal
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:05:22 GMT

Snaefridh proposes annotated bibliographies in lieu of monographs.

Funny you should mention that.  They came back from the printer a few
weeks ago. :-)  A couple of years ago the East Kingdom minister of 
arts and sciences began this project, and it evolved from a kingdom
project to a society one.  I do not know how artists in other kingdoms
were solicited for input; maybe most of the contents come from the East.
Anyway, this project is finally nearing completion, and the stock clerk
will be carrying the bibliography "soon".  (I don't know the price.)  The
bibliography is 72 pages (in the small newsletter format) with about a 
dozen annotated sources for each of many categories.  The focus is the 
arts and sciences.  I don't have one to hand to check a table of contents.
Anyway, this is a start, and people should continue to publish bibliographies
either singly, in newsletters and here, or collected.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:53:16 GMT


I had written:

>>How about armouring the marshals who are in the thick of things?

In article <1992Sep9.174420.24285@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes:

>The marshals most important defense is identification.  Putting armor on the
>marshals will mean that a given blow will hurt less but that they will get
>hit much more often.

I would rather get dinged on a helmet all day than take a rattan stick in my
face once.

Is that weird?

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: SCA Period Definition
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:27:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.211834.15974@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>The official end-date is 1600.  (I.e. "Pre-17th century.")
 
I recall seeing a Corporate document that gave the official ending date as 
1650.  Anyone else heard of this?

-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:27:55 GMT
Distribution: usa, na, world
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

Howdy, from Tom Perigrin

	The questions about tape, etc... put me in mind of how we did it in the
Sealed Knot in England.   First of all, let me describe the size of the 
problem.

A Major Muster (about 3 or 4 each summer) would pull from 6000 to 10000 people
(one of the advnatges of being on a small densely populated island).
About half and half Caviliers and Roundheads.   There we no uniform 
identifying marks, although individual units might have a green coat, 
a sprig of holly, or a white ribband.   I think I saw the Parlimentarians
all wear white ribbons,  but only once.

Instead, order was maintined by chain of command.  Each regiment consisted
of "the troops", a few corporals, a seargent or two, a leiutenant, and a 
captain.    The general officers would send runners to the captains to tell 
them what to do... they would tell the leutenants,  who, in the fashion of
leutenants since time began, would mess up the orders they pased on to
the seargents...

It is the duty of the captains to know the other captains, and to
maintain unit discipline.   As a leutenant of the artilliary,  it
wasn't my job (strictly) to know "who that block of pike was".   All
I knew was that a captain would tell me to reduce that group over there
to a bloodly pulp resembling nothing so much as grape preserves,  and I 
would endevour to do my best...

It was often the case that if a leutenant and captain were killed, that
a regiment of 50 to 200 troops would withdraw from the feild until
a new officer structure was promoted from the outside to lead them.

Individual troops were not trusted with powers of discrimination.  
History is rife with examples of troops firing upon their own
side,  and even cases where the beseiged fired at thier own walls
through the smoke !!!!

All of this is post 1550,  so I do not know how applicable this is to
600 - 1550.

Tom
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 23:35:35 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu wrote:
> 
> N.B. When Charles Manson (whom I remember quite well, thank you; I grew
> up in California) showed up for one of his innumerable parole hearings
> two years ago, it was a swastika, not a pentacle, that he had carved in
> his own forehead. He's a hatemonger, not even a Satanist and _certainly_
> not a neo-Pagan.

No, he's not a Satanist.  Mind you, he *has* claimed to *be* Satan...  :-)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Courtesy (was Re: awards recognition)
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:51:28 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Gentles!

Courts of chivalry can and sometimes do searve two important purposes:

1) Most importantly they determine and administer a punishment to an
   otherwise worthy and noble individual for an act which they themselves
   regret.  These individuals generally accept their punishment, remain
   friends with even those who officially condemn them and ultimately
   rejoin the society as worthy subjects even after a period of
   banishment.

2) In extreme cases a court of chivalry is the mechanism by which the
   SCA can attempt to rid itself of an individual who is actually destructive.

The report of a ritualized banishment of a gentle who subsequently was
knighted someplace else.  Either (1) the second kingdom made a grave
mistake or (2) the kingdom which ritualy banishes this knight is perpetuating
a grave mistake.  I will argue that even if the second kingdom is in error
that the kingdom which persists in ritually banishing this knight is almost
certainly in error.  This kingdom is not allowing the long since departed
gentle to reform and this (unless the knight in question actually maliciously
killed somebody in which case he should probably be in jail) is something which
he should be allowed to do.

						Your Humble Servant
						Solveig Throndardottir
						Totally Ignorant
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:39:20 GMT
Distribution: world, na, usa
Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona

In article <715665695.F00003@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>Nicholas van Leyden (ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)) wrighteth :-)
>
> EVW> I may be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere in the Pennsic 
> EVW> information booklet that quiet hours began at midnight.
>
>I think it was later than that, but your point remains valid, that it was
>regularly violated with impunity.  Perhaps a "quiet end" could be instituted
>like at other events.  Envision the land grab after a few decades:
>
> "How many people in your encampment?"
> "Five."
> "You get 1150 square feet.  Want to buy any more?"
> "Yes, we'd like 200 extra square feet."
> "That's $200.  Partying, or non-partying?"
> "Partying."
> "Period, or non-period?"
> "Non-period."
> "Fighting, or non-fighting?"
> . . .
>
>B-)

This is actually a lot simpler than it seems.   You can run this as a sort
of reverse classification analysis scheme.

You first decide how discriminants you want (say N);  partying, period, 
fighting, royalty, persona nationality, time of arising, etc...    
These values should be bounded real numbers.  Complex roots require more work.

Then, you assign people a position in orthonormal  N space,  using the 
values of discrimiantors above.  This defines the location of their camp 
in N space.

However, most people have trouble folding themselves through (say) 9-space
to get to their camp,  and so we need to fold the space for them,  and perform
a N to 2 projection...   This can be done by using a principal component
analysis to define those two axis which will result in a N to 2 projection
that maintains the maximal seperation of all clusters of un-like people, 
while allowing for some interpenetration (use appropriate protection!) 
of people with similar interests.

The only small problems that I can see are;

1)  Camp boundaries will be distorted N-agons,  which will confuse camp guards.

2)  Roads and pathways will weave back and forth, often recrossing themselves
	several times.  This will almost mandate the use of golf carts
	for the dimensionally impaired.

3)  Any N to 2 mapping will have "crises" points, in which 2 neighboring
	states in N space will map onto widely disparate mappings of 2 space.
	This could mean that the addition of one (for example) Tuchux on the
	third day would cause a mapping crises, and everyone would have to
	move their encampments.  Of course, no one would really mind this
	too much.

4)  The autocrat will have to think and dream in N space.

5)  Under certain circumstances, small children may fall into mapping folds,
	and may either reappear in distant camps or next tuesday.  This may or
	may not be seen as a good thing.

I think this plan has a lot to offer,  and I humbly await your accolades and
approbations.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison)
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 22:30:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


Methinks the subject of Pentacles has been flogged to death these last two 
days.  

As has been pointed out, the BoD does have the right to regulate what goes 
on within the organization, and I don't have to like it.  It does rankle,
however, when a symbol that I consider to have a rather positive connotation
is shoved into the same category as the swastika.  

This is a matter of great saddness for me.  But it is one I can live with.

As for my socioty name, I will be rejoining the SCA after an absence of 
some six or seven years this October at Crown in the West, and will be
registering as Gregory of Malvern.  For those interested in greeting me,
I usually wear a dark green tunic and a grey cloak.

I beg your forgiveness if you feel I have over reacted.

Humbly,
Gregory of Malvern
=========================================================================
Peter John Harrison
peterh@netcom.com
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Modest Proposal
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:02:18 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Gentles!

I intend to present the following proposal to the BoD for consideration.
At the moment it is in its formative stages and is based somewhat on a
series of publications originally proposed by Lord Anton of Winteroak
who is considering privately producing a series similar to the one which
I will propose.

Currently the SCA publishes:  kingdom newsletters, Tournaments
Illuminated and Complete Anachronist.  The editorial policy of
Tournaments Illuminated favours very short articles especially
of the "how to" variety.  The editorial policy of Complete
Anachronist favours longer articles of an introductory nature.
In particular, the most recent and the new CA editors have
instituted a series of Miscellany which are compendiums of short
to medium length articles on related topics.  What is proposed
is that the SCA institute a series of research monographs which
would present original research geared toward recreation of various
aspects of the middle ages.  The series would bridge the gap between
CA and academic research publications.  Issues in the series would
also be somewhat longer than CA with a page count between 70 pages
and 200 pages.  70 pages being about the upper limit for CA publication.
I do not think that such a publication, tentatively titled "Studia Antiqua",
could come out more than 4 times a year.  Actually, since there is at
present no back-log of submissions, that frequency of publication will
be somewhat difficult to sustain during the first years of publication.

I hope that intersted gentles will take the time to comment on this
rudimentary proposal.  I am certain that it can be vastly improved.
Regardless, volumes in the series would be stocked by the stock clerk
and might also be available on a subscription basis.

						Your Humble Servant
						Solveig Throndardottir
						Totally Ignorant

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Smelly steel wagons at Pe
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:09:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.001436.19885@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <715471341.F00001@blkcat.UUCP> Craig.Vaughan@p365.f342.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Craig Vaughan) writes:
>>
>>  AP> M'Lord.... I for one took no offense whatsoever at the placement of
>>  AP> the parking lot.  Indeed, een tho many a gas dragon did snort down the
>>  AP> path not 5 FEET from my head at night as I lay asleep, I noticed them
>>  AP> not.  I DID, however, take great umbridge at the blasting horns of the
>>  AP> great diesel beasts lumbering on the interstate!  I was unfortunate
>>  AP> enough to be assigned not far from that awful road, and more than once
>>  AP> I was actively planning my distances and angles for a crossbow shot
>>  AP> right into a semi.  (Wonder what they'd think when they finally
>>  AP> noticed an arrow sticking out?)  I do wish there were some way to
>>  AP> silence those beasties' horns! In your service, Lord Ailean Mac an
>>
>>In our barony's camp, much thought was given as to how to construct a sound
>>activated ballista...
>
>Caltrops are period . . .  :-)

Also somewhat indiscriminatory. How about a nice catapult with laser
guided rocks. ;-)

In service,

Corun

P.S. I wonder how many truck drivers are in the SCA, and how many are on
the Rialto? Just a nervous query.


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Ps & Qs; Thees & Thous
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:58:42 GMT

In article <15654@bcars664.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup@BNR.CA writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.023018.13921@ccu.umanitoba.ca>,
>sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:
>|>Gwydden wrote :
>|>Rialto about its proper usage (la plus que change...)  Somebody else's
>|>turn; surely the OED says something about the use of "thou" for the
>|>Deity.
>
>The Concise Oxford notes it as singular, but not as informal.  I dunno if the
>company has an OED around.  Will check.

Thou, pronoun, of second person singular: now replaced by you except in some
formal, litugical, and poetic uses.

Nope, nothing about being specific to anyone's Deity, either in the OED,
or in the six inch thick Webster's Unabridged.

In service,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:37:33 EDT
From: <PXF3@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Scholarly journal

Greetings, Gentles, from Snaefridh, a lurker.

I am sorry I did not save the posts, but I wanted to comment on the
suggestion that a series of research monographs would be a good project for
SCA to undertake.  Someone wisely pointed out that many scholarly journals
and monographs already exist in the mundane world of academia and that the
energy needed to produce something first-rate would be better (career-wise)
directed toward them.  I agree.

However, I believe that there is a need for something beyond the _Compleat
Anachronist_, which is wonderful but can leave a newbie like me panting for
more.  May I suggest a series of annotated bibliographies?  These could be
produced in a booklet format according to interest (weapons, garb, textile
crafts, etc.).

They might be posted occasionally here on the Rialto, or they might be
distributed at demonstrations or kept in a baronial lending library for
newbies.

If this suggestion has been made before, please forgive my ignorance.  If
such bibiliographies exist, please tell me about them.  I'd be glad to help
with such a project, if someone wants to give it a try.

Snaefridh
--
Paula Ford   | Internet: pxf3@psuvm.psu.edu  | PO Box 674
"Snaefridh"  | Bitnet:   pxf3@psuvm          | Hollidaysburg, PA 16648
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended
up where I needed to be.  --Dirk Gently
From: vanderla4870@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: WANTED: Heraldic References
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:51:01 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Warmest Greetings to All from The Incipient Shire of Le Grande Tente,

I was wondering if anyone out there in the Known World could take a minute from
their busy schedule and be kind enough to give me the titles and authors of
some of the better books dealing with heraldry.  I am trying to get the Le
Grande Tente Pursivant's Office working, and knowing of some good reference
books would be most helpful.  I offer my thanks to any who would help.

In Service to the Society and Le Grande Tente (incipient though it may be),

                                        Cedric Llewellyn
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentagrams / consort gender
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:00:14 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Sep9.162510.19205@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:

>  Since only _MY_PARTICULAR_ religious symbology has been
>outlawed, I can see no reason to accept the invitation my
>friends have extended to start doing blacksmithing for the
>Twin Cities organization.  I not only deny the invitation,
>but I swear that I will do my level best to get your homophobic,
>intolerant, and discriminating little organization boycotted
>by my friends until this purge of "undesirable" symbols, 
>preferences, and religions is ended.

What a good idea, particularly since the SCA won't do anything
to you in exchange. I have a better idea: why don't you convince
some good old boys down in, say, Georgia, that pentacles aren't evil, 
but first explain that you are a witch (or a pagan) and give them
your home address. Then come back and tell us how homophobic, intolerant,
and discriminating the SCA is. 

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:10:35 GMT

Margaret, are you trying to say that Colonel Sir Harry Paget Flashman VC
is fictitious?!  I am appalled by such a suggestion!

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca