From: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Amateur Programming? [Re: Is IM going to be repackaged?]
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 01:46:59 EDT
Organization: 5 Sigma Software
Reply-To: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v5


In article <1bfa63INN34l@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> (comp.sys.mac.programmer), potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
) In article <01050166.fva9pl@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us> joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us writes:
) >It's pretty easy to find 50 hours a week of nights and weekends if
) >you are sufficiently motivated and antisocial.  I've done it before.
) >Enjoyed it, too.
) 
) It all depends, I suppose, on what your body can take. I know that mine
) *can't* take working 40 hours a week, plus another fifty. Staring at a
) screen all day, and then all night, and all weekend, has already damaged
) my eyesight and my wrists to the point where I need to be very careful.
) Also I'd say the lack of exercise and the result of grabbing most of my
) meals at coffee shops and Taco Bell is probably not a positive investment
) in my long-term health.

I doubt that I could tolerate working 90 hours per week doing the
same doggone thing.  I *have* worked 40 hr/wk at a day job requiring
somewhat less concentration and 50 hr/wk on relatively intense hobby
projects.  Why I have had trouble finding real work that is sufficiently
stimulating, I don't know.  But lately I'm getting closer.

I doubt I would ever work 90 hours at any job unless I was self-employed
and likely to get rich as a result.  I also doubt that my mind is
capable of 90 hours per week of worthwhile coding effort.  Coding
plus other stuff, yes.  But I rarely go more than 4 or 5 days of 10-12+
hour days of coding.  My ability to concentrate and write error-free
code just goes out the window.

) I suppose many hackers don't have to worry about any of these things to 
) begin with, however.   [friends, wives, health, etc.]

<sigh>  I am fortunate to know a very few folks who both understand
and participate in these rituals.  Exercise and stretching,
and a moderate amount of decent food cooked at home keep me in
reasonably good health.  On the other hand, I have seen friends and
others whose health would undoubtedly improve if they could manage
to fit some non-programming activities into their schedules.

) I work with Borland C++. It is the best thing out there on the PC, but
) it is far from perfect. Writing a C++ compiler is a *big* project. C++
) is a *big* language.

Yeah, a friend of mine and I have at times considered writing a C++
parser and intelligent formatter.  I'd guess a year or so of our spare
time would be required, and collectively the two of us are not too
shabby.  C++ is exciting in many respects, but it becomes, I think,
a total loser when applied to large, tedious projects.  Probably something
like Ada(R) is a better choice for the sorts of things that people
are now starting to use C++ for.  Even if it requires suppressing
the Ada(R) gag reflex.

Personally, I'd prefer a kinder, gentler language--full-featured,
yes, and close to the metal (so long as speed is an issue), but
one that doesn't require that you learn by shooting yourself in the
foot repeatedly.

) People will want
) to see a useful, complete class library with C++. That isn't a trivial
) project either, especially for a company like Symtantec that is already
) working on something as big as Bedrock.

It's not a trivial project, nor is it guaranteed that even if the
outcome is bugfree it will be useful.  Nevertheless it is what I would
like to have, given that C++ is the emerging status quo.

) Believe me when I say that it is impressive that Borland ++ is out there,
) and such a fine product, but there are certainly areas where it could have
) benefitted from a few months more work, especially in the area of the
) class libraries.

Oh, sure.  But I lust after features that really aren't C++ related.
The automatic precompilation.  Support for executing external tools.
The SPEED.  The excellent error reporting.

I will admit that I have only once managed to crash THINK C, while
my cohort developing in Borland C++ regularly crashes the compiler
and/or debugger.

) >All I want to do is to write clean, reliable software and persuade
) >the folks around me to do the same.  Lively discussions are terrific.  
) >Weird personal habits are de rigeur.  The egos and thin skins, though, I
) >can do without.
) It seems to me that saying "I can be productive for 90 hours a week"
) is, in itself, a form of egotism. 

It is, but that wasn't what I was trying to say.  I should have been
more precise.  I can be productive 90 hours per week, but not if my
only task is cranking out code.

) If you're willing to work like this, then I'm
) sure there are companies who will be happy to exploit you. But there are
) certainly also companies who would rather have employees with full, balanced
) lives. 

I would not want to work for a company that concerned itself with
the quality of my life beyond asking me periodically whether I was
happy and healthy, and taking appropriate corrective action when I
returned complaints.  I know many people who are eccentric but
nonetheless happy and healthy by the standards that they consider
important.  Not everyone has a conventional social life; not everyone
has a conventional life, period.  I grew up knowing a lot of oddballs
(including myself) and after a while I learned to appreciate them.

(Besides, my girlfriend is currently living in Hawaii, and I *have*
to keep myself busy to keep from fidgeting.)

) Don't get me wrong -> I enjoy programming my brains out, and solving
) problems, and debugging, and learning new languages. But every once in
) a while I look around me and take the time to go for a walk, or see my
) girlfried, or go for a run, or cook a meal from scratch. Programming is
) more than just a job, but it isn't all there is.

Absolutely!

What an interesting post.  I appreciate your candor.  Actually, I
would like to hear from other programmers out there ... try to mention
"Mac" so it's at least halfway legitimate ... :-)

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