HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: karn@servo.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 04:05:08 GMT

In article <schuck.718340182@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>Retired CIA agent Robert Morrow claimed on "A Current Affair"
>tonight that he bought the Mannlicher-Carcano rifles used
>to assassinate JFK.
>
>He says he bought four 7.35mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles
>in July of 1963 from Sonny's Surplus under the impression they were to
>be used to assassinate a South American dictator.

There's only one problem with this story -- the assassination rifle
was the 6.5mm version of the Mannlicher-Carcano, not the 7.35mm.
Although you can rebore a smaller caliber to a larger caliber, the
reverse is much less practical.

Naturally, I won't even mention the well-documented paper trail that
shows that Oswald purchased the actual assassination rifle by mail
order from Klein's sporting goods through his PO box using the AJ
Hidell alias.

If you're going to pass on a story like this, you ought to at least
check it for basic plausibility first. Ditto if you're going to
fabricate the story yourself.

Phil
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: scdorcy@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES DORCEY)
Subject: Re: mortal error
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  6 Oct 1992 17:10 EST  

In article <1992Oct6.044611.6483@qualcomm.com>, karn@chicago.qualcomm.com 
writes...
>In article <schuck.717908982@sfu.ca>, schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan 
>Schuck) writes:
>|> Hickey is describing a 'double' shot . Such a double shot, .8
>|> seconds apart is heard on the HSCA acoustical evidence tape.

>How come nobody ever considers the fact that Dealy Plaza is surrounded
>by tall buildings and various other structures that are excellent
>acoustic reflectors? Work out the various distances, divide by the
>speed of sound, and I think you'll find it easy to explain
>observations like these.

You have a point, however, each of the three WCR shots should be followed 
on the dictabelt by a reflection (echo, whatever) based on this.  They are 
not.  (To really muddy the water, one could theorize that the "double" shot 
is actually a single shot from the knoll with an echo off of the TSBD :-) )

>It's a rare person who has never experienced an auditory illusion
>where a sound (especially a short and unexpected one) seems to be
>coming from a direction other than its true one. Recall also that a
>gunshot can produce multiple, distinct sounds from several sources:
>the muzzle blast from the gun itself, the shock wave of the bullet
>passing through the air, and the sound of the bullet striking its
>target. Having fired a rifle many times myself, I can attest to the
>latter sound, in particular, being very distinct.

BOOM, Crack, Thud.  Each with distinct acoustic signatures.  Once again, in 
comparison to the WRC version of three shots, why would the first two 
appear as single shots and the third as a double?  The only explaination 
which I can think of is that the impact with JFK's head made a lot of noise.

>It would also help if people actually studied the physics of wounds,
>instead of assuming that their simple-minded application of basic
>physics "must" be accurate.  That's just one reason I tend to give a
>lot more weight to the verdicts of experts (like those on the Warren
>Commission) than to the theories of bookselling conspiracy theorists.

Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Botany, Anatomy, and a whole bunch of Geometry.
A whole bunch of science and math with a lot of unanswered questions.

If you read the WCR, you will find the "experts" _on_ the WC (which were 
politicians, not experts) came to some astounding conclusions (such as: 
despite testimony that some people heard more than three shots fired, the 
Warren Commission concluded that only three shots were fired because that's 
how many empty cartridges were found on the sixth floor of the TSBD).

JD
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: mortal error
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:09:42 GMT

Recently I posted in this thread:

>Yes. Hickey's statment in the WCH said he saw the bullet that hit JFK
>in the back actually occur. That means he knew shots were being fired as
>early as 190 or as late as 230 depending on when you think JFK was
>wounded in the back.

and

>He claimed he saw the President actually hit in the back.

It turns out I was confusing Hickey with Glen A Bennett who stted he
saw JFK hit in the back. [WCH v. 18 p760]

What Hickey actually said was:

"After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like
a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed
to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and
rear and in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention
except people and cheering. A disturbance in 679X caused me to look
forward to the Presidents car. Perhaps two or three seconds elapsed
from the time I looked to the rear and then looked to the President.
He was slumped forward and to the left, and was straightening up to to
an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment
he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were
shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the
first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be
practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the
President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first
shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the
right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any
impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and
cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and
to his left again." [WCH v.18 p.762]

I'm sorry about attributing Bennetts testimony to Hickey.

So as not to make this a total loss, I bring your attention to the
last 4-5 lines. 

Hickey is describing a 'double' shot . Such a double shot, .8
seconds apart is heard on the HSCA acoustical evidence tape.

Hickey is describing a wound in the right rear of JFK's head from the
first shot [which is the wound described by the medical staff at
Parkland and SS agent Clint Hill]. The 2nd shot of the double seems to
be the exit wound of a rear shot because it causes the hair on 'the
right side of his head' to fly forward.


-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
From: karn@servo.qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: mortal error
Date: 7 Oct 92 04:32:53 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc

In article <92280.073201U54778@uicvm.uic.edu> <U54778@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>Looks like we got ourselves another genius.  This one is an expert on
>auditory illusions. Wow.

No, I am only a reasonably well educated layman who has read both the
WC report and some of the conspiracy theories, and who has found the
methods and conclusions of the WC report far more complete, thorough,
self-consistent, plausible and persuasive than any of the conspiracy
theories.  Given that none of us were actual witnesses to the
assassination, information provided by others is the only evidence we
can go on. I have to form my own conclusions just as though I were a
juror at a trial being presented with physical and testimonial
evidence.  in fact, if I *were* a witness, I'd be disqualified as a
juror, and for good reason.

Oh heck. I was going to respond to the rest of your posting, but
what's the use. I might as well question somebody's fervently held
religious beliefs. You conspiracy theorists remind me of those who
insist that because biologists still argue among themselves about the
minute details of evolution, the entire theory of evolution is invalid
and ergo, creationism "must be" (by default?) the "correct" answer.

You can believe whatever you want -- it doesn't make any difference to
me or any one else. I will say, though, that if you are truly
concerned with governmental malfeasance, there are many real problems
much more worthy of your time than chasing conspiratorial illusions in
the JFK assassination. The bloated defense budget, the sustained
attack on the bill of rights and individual freedoms, the sorry
scandal that is US public education, etc. There are lots of
*present-day* authority figures much more deserving of public
challenge than the long-defunct Warren Commission.

Phil
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: CIA Agent confesses to buying rifles
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:49:18 GMT

jerry@cs.mcgill.ca (Gerald (Jerry) KUCH) writes:

>In article <schuck.718340182@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>>Retired CIA agent Robert Morrow claimed on "A Current Affair"
>>tonight that he bought the Mannlicher-Carcano rifles used
>>to assassinate JFK.
>>
>>He says he bought four 7.35mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifles
>>in July of 1963 from Sonny's Surplus under the impression they were to
>>be used to assassinate a South American dictator.

>Uhh... wasn't the famous Oswald rifle 6.5mm?

Yes. However, except for the magic bullet, 
which was found on a stretcher that might have been Connally's but
probably wasn't, there were no 6.5mm bullet fragments found that could
be proven to have wounded anybody.

The two limo fragments had *no* blood and *no* brain tissue on them of
*any* amount. Considering how massively fragmented they were and how
many nooks and crevices there were for small amounts of blood and
brain to be deposited, that is amazing.

The FBI routinely tests for blood on a bullet, and both the magic
bullet and the limo fragments were clean. In an unbiased
investigation, the only possible conclusion is that those bullets
never wounded anybody.

If you think there was a conspiracy, then it isn't too hard to believe
that 6.5mm bullets and fragments from Oswalds gun could have been
planted after the fact.

The actual assassination could have been done with 7.35mm
rifles firing fragmenting ammunition.

>>Robert Blakey, head of the HSCA 'investigation' said that while the
>>mob was connected to the Cubans, and the Cubans were connected to the
>>CIA, the CIA were not connected to the assassination of the JFK. :)
>>
>>This from a man who was unperturbed to find a CIA agent burgalarizing
>>an HSCA safe during the investigation. :)

>And the third guy to fill the revolving door leadership of a committee that
>was falling apart more and more by the day...



-- 
===============================================================================
        "We've got to get bigger guns" -- Dick Durkin -- Split Second

schuck@sfu.ca                                           Vote No on October 26th
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy.jfk:3400 alt.conspiracy:10921 sci.skeptic:17381 talk.rumors:1063
From: spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,talk.rumors
Subject: Re: alt.conspiracy.jfk under attack!
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:26:15 GMT
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: pitstop.ucsd.edu

In article <BvICE6.IpD@acsu.buffalo.edu> v462etnn@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (David L Anderson) writes:
>In article <52.X6661@ramona.com>, doug@ramona.com (Double Agent) writes...
>>I've been tipped off that someone at one of the main news distribution
>>sites has installed a program that randomly deletes a percentage of
>>postings to alt.conspiracy.jfk. This program has been running for months.
>>Why would some sick hacker do this? Supposedly to make a.c.j posters
>>feel more paranoid than they really are when their postings don't get
>>answered.
>
>Gee, I dunno... sounds kinda like a funny idea to me.  But then
>again, I have a hard time subscribing to conspiracy theories...

Personally, I subscribe to the official Lone Hacker Theory.  You see,
there was this magic posting that went through sci.skeptic, right
angled through talk.bizarre and alt.relgion.kibology, and lodged in
alt.conspiracy.jfk.  The core dump photos prove it!

							spl

-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"If you don't think people are this crazy, you need to move to LA!"
                                     - Gary Stollman
From: indiana@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: L. Fletcher Prouty
Date: 26 Sep 92 17:29:22 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

L.Fletcher Prouty,evidently promoting an upcoming book,will be seen on
"Entertainment Tonight" on Monday,Sept.28/92.
               
          WHO KILLED PRESIDENT KENNEDY ?
  
L.Fletcher Prouty :
   "The Oswald story and the Jack Ruby story and all the rest of it, is a
    cover story for a murder done by trained professionals under orders
    from the highest level......."
From: cmccoy@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Craig McCoy)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:15:43 GMT
Subject: Dallas Visit
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
From: dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: 30 year anniversary?
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:03:15 GMT
Reply-To: dbernard@thewho.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

Next year is the 30th anniversary of the assasination.  Anyone
know of any special plans to observe the event in Dallas?  A
convention of those tracking the conspiracy theories?  A
dedication of this or that historical site?  Release of hitherto
unreleased government files?  A gathering of alt.conspiracy.jfk
readers in Dallas?


	Dave
From: dlove@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Dave Love)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Marina Oswald gets into the act
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:09:17 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <cortez.717587438@milton> cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:
>schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck) writes:
>
>>Palmprints appear on rifles out of thin air.
>
>I totally agree with your general sentiment, but I think the palmprint
>is genuine. Here's why:
>
>The palmprint is on a part of the rifle that can only be grasped while the
>gun is disassembled. If someone wanted to plant a print, they would plant
>a print that suggested Oswald fired the rifle -- a print where someone
>holding a rifle in firing position would be.

Of course, if you wanted to plant a palm-print on a rifle which had just
been found free of prints by one of the finest crime-labs in the world,
you'd probably put it someplace inconspicuous.  Just a thought...


+=======================================+===============================+
| "We're going to have the best         | Dave Love                     |
|  educated Americans in the world!"    | dlove@cbnewsf.att.com         |
|   -- Dan Quayle                       | <insert std. disclaimer here> |
+=======================================+===============================+
From: ajs9462@zeus.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: mortal error
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:32:00 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <schuck.717630229@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>Tony Simon >
>Bruce Schuck >>
> 
>>>There is photographic evidence that Hickey was already turned
>>>around and facing rearwards by the time of the 2nd shot.
> 
>>Which photo? Name a source. 
> 
>The Altgens photo was taken about the time of the 2nd shot.
>Hickey is the SS agent who is not standing up, but has his head above
>the windshield of the followup car. He is sitting on the top of the
>back of the rear seat and is looking directly backwards.
>The Altgens photo is famous and can be seen in several books,
>including Mortal Error [sometimes the right side is cropped.
>It's also in High Treason.
>It was taken at frame 255 according to the WC, although Altgens
>says he snapped the shutter at the time of the 2nd shot which
>probably occurred around 237.
> 

I see Hickey. He appears to be looking back at the crowd. I doubt he could see
a gun on the 6th floor when he's looking at the crowd on ground level.

>>Couldn't you at least put a reference once in
>>awhile? It makes it easier to look things up.
> 
>Very funny.

The problem is that I do not have all the source material that you have at
your fingertips. I have to go to the library and find a book that is actually
in the library that has the picture. I suspect that there others with the
same problem. I have other work to do, so I can't afford to spend my whole
life tracking down something that you make comments about without some kind
of reference.

> 
>>>If there was an assassin to see in the TSBD, and I'm sure from less
>>>than 200 feet a rifle would have had a good chance of being seen,
>>>then Hickey would have had a target.
>>>

Provided he was looking in the proper direction.

> 
>>By the time he would have had his rifle up, couldn't the target on the 6th
>>floor have been gone?
> 
>If there was a shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD, he should have
>seen the rifle.

If he was looking at the sixth floor.

Tony Simon
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: canderso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chuck Anderson)
Subject: Re: English guy speaks out
Reply-To: canderso@nyx.UUCP (Chuck Anderson)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 21:33:16 GMT

> harderaf@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>Hi,  I'm an  English visitor (I teach American history)  and I"ve done a lot of
>resaeaRC JHINTO THE JFK ASSassassination. I guess the thing which intersets me
>most is the presumptionb among American critivcsa that it ois possible yto
>determine the truth ofd the tevenyt sin DaLLASas by the avaialblew ecidewnce .
>eh that ius the the turth of a pthootgrapg is s detetminative that one can be

f u cn rd ths u cn b a cmptr prgrmmr

--
  *************************************************************************
     Chuck Anderson                uucp    :         uunet!nyx!canderso
     Boulder, Co. (303) 494-6278   internet:         canderso@nyx.cs.du.edu
  *************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: ajs9462@zeus.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE)
Subject: Re: mortal error
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 19:08:00 GMT

In article <schuck.717616280@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>ajs9462@zeus.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE) writes:
> 
>There is photographic evidence that Hickey was already turned
>around and facing rearwards by the time of the 2nd shot.
> 

Which photo? Name a source. Couldn't you at least put a reference once in
awhile? It makes it easier to look things up.

>If there was an assassin to see in the TSBD, and I'm sure from less
>than 200 feet a rifle would have had a good chance of being seen,
>then Hickey would have had a target.
>

By the time he would have had his rifle up, couldn't the target on the 6th
floor have been gone?

>Donahues thesis is that Hickey was getting ready to do that by
>standing up with the AR-15 when he accidently shot JFK.

Tony Simon
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.individualism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.culture.usa,sci.research,sci.med
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: ARF's Recommendation - Washington Report
From: <LIBRBA@BYUVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992 12:50:45 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University

In article <1992Oct6.084553.1377@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
says:
>
>To my surprise, I received a well-written quality publication that
>offered many worthwhile viewpoints and news reports that you are not
>likely to see or hear in our highly filtered news media.  Whether
>one agrees with all of the reports given or not, and who ever does in
>reading any magazine, they are often informative and thought provoking.

   Hmmm... funny, when I did the same thing I received a well-written
publication which expressed only *one* viewpoint.  I still don't see how the
antidote to one filter (so called) is the application of a different one.
>
>Thanks, Jack, for the recommendation.
>
>Joe Gaut
--
Rick Anderson                 "The flesche is bruckle, the Fend is sle:
Musikforschungsfuhrer          Timor mortis conturbat me."
Lee Library, BYU                                          -- MC Billy D.
librba@BYUVM.BITNET            Disclaimer: BYU disagrees.
From: aq817@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: I NEED ASSISTANCE...Any Intellects
Date: 4 Oct 1992 09:03:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:

>In article <1299600078@igc.apc.org> elite@igc.apc.org 
 (Elite Enterprises) writes:

>>does anybody no of any organizations that are anti-jewish? if so, please
>>e-mail names and addresses. i'm working on a school project and looking
>>for the type of info they publish.

>Exactly what type of "school project" are you working on? And what's
>your real name?
>
>-- Brad Pierce --

Gee, are we hostile today or what? Some people prefer to post here 
anonymously. Big deal.

-Steve
From: rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack)
Subject: Re: Energy industry being destroyed
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:10:24 GMT

>
>This, of course, conveniently ignores the fact that there *was* a
>shortage then, and there *wasn't* in the gulf crisis.  And anybody
>who knows jack about the oil business will tell you the lag between
>increased price and increased production is measured in years.
>
>But what good is an ideological bias if you have to limit yourself
>to the facts?
>
>	Bill (who grinds his axe on both sides) Hopkins
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>hopkins@GVL.Unisys.Com          Paramax Systems Corporation (A Unisys Company)
>215-648-2854 or 363-7464        Great Valley Labs, PO Box 517, Paoli, PA 19301
>MXE 016 radial, 8 nmi              Opening my mouth is not company policy.

I lived in Staten Island and worked in Manhattan during the
oil "shortage" in the 1970's.  Every morning I would ride the
Staten Island ferry, and every morning I would watch oil
tankers sitting at anchor in the harbor.  These tankers were
riding very low in the water.  The oil storage facilities in
NJ were at capacity during this shortage.

Rich Soyack
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W)
Subject: Bo Gritz
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:30:00 GMT

I just finished reading the LOOOOONG speech made last August by Bo Gritz.  Who
is this guy?  Is he for real?  I want to find out more about him; so if you can
drop me a line by e-mail, I'd really appreciate it.
From: lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: The Net Police
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:23:46 GMT

Check it out!!!!

/u/pubs/lpb:whois cia

Allen, Charles Iv. (CIA)        3908CONSCC@STRATHOST.STRATCOM.AF.MIL
                                                 (402) 294-7282 (DSN) 271-7282
Central Intelligence Agency (NET-CIA) CIA                           162.45.0.0
                             ^^^^^^^
To single out one record, look it up with "!xxx", where xxx is the
handle, shown in parenthesis following the name, which comes first.
 



Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.individualism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.culture.usa