From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Circular Flames
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:05:38 GMT

mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>> 
>> This is reminiscent of Arabs vs. Israelis. After a while it becomes stupid
>> and pointless to try to go back to first causes.
>> 
>> I'm a well known pariah on soc.bi, for getting into heavy trashing, especially
>> trying to point out hypocrisy. People with closed ears do not hear.
>> 
>> Point to you, and to Tai, is to try it in reverse:
>> If you believe in the Golden Rule, then whose ego is large enough for them
>> to be *nice* first, and see if the other responds in kind? If all you see
>> is the last insult, and reply in kind, then consider that your opponent
>> has you quite well figured out; you're just pumping each other.
>> 
>> >You are a pathetic representative of the human race, Tai.
>> 
>> You [steiner] should know what you're doing here.
>> If Tai characterizes your past behavior correctly, the first thing to do
>> is acknowledge it - "yes, I know that I evidence behavior X". So what?
>> We are all fuck-ups. Much easier to say so and to get on with it.
>> 
>> So, I leave you to think about this . . .
>
>Tai began his Mensa-bashing in this newsgroup almost from its inception.
>When he first began, we responded with logic and decorum.  His response was
>more bashing, and then flaming.  I, and a few others, began to flame him back.
>all that did was invoke more flames from him, but eventually he left; then the
>newsgroup settled down--until he returned.  When he returned this time, one of
>his first messages took a slam against me, and the content of the messages had
>not changed from his previous appearances here.  I see no reason to treat him
>any differently than I had.  I'd not reply to him at all if no one else replied
>to him, but since they do, that encourages him to keep posting; therefore, my
>keeping silent would not do anything towards shunning him.
>
>As I told Tai, I don't flame unless flamed first--and I consider flaming Mensa
>Mensans in general the same as flaming me the same as I would consider an
>anti-Semetic comment to be directed against me as well.  BTW, I consider Tai to
>be no different than any other bigot.

Sorry, I've got to be partisan, and say Steiner YES Tai NO.

You got the first "now, now", but Tai got the rest of the things I had to
say.

I watch my personality alternate between glee-at-flaming and being-a-christian,
and frankly both are fine. Since I have a [n indeterminate] dissociative
disorder, I can excuse myself completely. In my [*argh* astrological] chart,
I have Venus in Pisces in 12th house [ultra nice, ultra sweet] opposed
Jupiter [expansion] conjunct Pluto [deadly force of will] in Leo [self-
expression] in the 6th house [pay me what I'm due or else.]
So I have the axis: be nice or I'll kill you. And it's fun to watch this in
action, like a see-saw.

Now, if Tai does not *shape up*, for example, or *ship out*, then we have
him for cannon fodder to practice our bashing skills. There are a lot of
polite people out there who try to reason with Tai. Here is what I think:
at some level in Tai's psyche, he does read the nice things written, so
they *do* have an impact, and the people who cannot bring themselves to
call him names, but who don't feel he should just pass off the things he
says, should keep writing those things. Then, when he tries to trash those
people, *we* the adepts at flaming, can step in and *trash the shit* out
of him, and compare notes - "Yeh, in 6924 you really got 'im good!" -
we can reinforce our social bonds at his expense, as it were.

I am one of those polymorphous perverse who can cross the line, and be good-
cop & bad-cop in one - benefits of my disorder, so maybe you should give
yourselves that freedom too. In fact, probably we can engage in close
psychological warfare - nice & nasty things in the SAME post -

You seem to be a well thought individual with important points to address
You're the arsehole of the cosmos & even your mother knows it - you twit

Then there is the mechanism of referring to him continuously in the third
person, as if he weren't here -

Tai: You, Steiner, have the brains of 0.5 peanut.
Steiner: It's irritating, isn't it, to put up with Tai's personal attacks,
		 what a sap he is.
Tai: Anyone who thinks Mensa has any credibility in the world should spend
	 the rest of his life combing the news for articles about it, since
	 that will keep him busy and out of MY face, but specifically Steiner,
	 the Scumbag that you are, Steiner, you wretch!
Steiner: Hmm. Read the Wall Street Journal today. Didn't read any mention
		 of Tai or the janitorial work he does at the institute - wonder
		 if he gets overpaid due to a loophole in the equal pay laws . . .

Then of course there is the condescending, psychological approach:

Well. I wonder if Tai's mother didn't give him enough breast feeding.
-or-
Seems Tai has an inferiority complex regarding the issue of intelligence -
if he *is* intelligent, it suggests a massive lack of self-acceptance, probably
due to being ostracized by society for being unusual, and we see society's hate
for him replay itself in the image of love through his projecting it on our
group here - he's showing love and asking for it in the only way he knows how;
or if he is *not* intelligent enough to qualify for Mensa, we see him displace
his rage onto the issue of whether standardized tests are worthwhile . . .

I suppose if the fellow offers himself up to be fed upon, we should do so,
and sharpen our literary skills - I *know* I'm still not really good at
writing biting, sarcastic flames with half a bottle of Ouzo in me, so there's
a personal challenge; I can seize upon the opportunity as a gift to practice
through, and accord Tai the thanks he deserves. Yes, YES! I'm so glad we have
Tai to bash, for otherwise we might set upon each Other, and that would not
be nice. No, No, I love everyone, and since this is rec.org.mensa, I love my
fellow Mensans . . . {meta: occurs Tai Mensan is?}

Ah well. You see, his presence here can be used in many constructive ways.
His use of the space seems not to elicit understanding, but he has his own
life plan, who are *we* to judge? No, my friends, I think we have to admit
that Scott Tai is a gift from Heaven, Heaven Sent, so that we may each see
ourselves in reaction to him, who am I, the respondent asks, to be replying
in the manner that I do? Ah, I am a good person, I am an angry person, I am
a joyful person . . . and Mr. Tai is yet mere bytes on a network - how
splendid to know that the universe in its infinite wisdom has proffered
such a gift to us - ah blessed be, all that is, to have given us the image
of a Man to Eat and to Savage with the fullness of life which each of us
bears -

Glory be unto Thee, Tai in the highest, whom we so roundly vilifiest!

...

Jeez, Steiner, I think we should ask Tai to stay. What do you think?
-ecsd
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa