HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bjorn@ludd.luth.se (Bjorn Fahller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re: <None>)
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:49:29 GMT
Organization: Lule} H|gskolas datorf|rening ( Ludd )

In <AFORSTEN.92Jul29183317@aton.abo.fi> aforsten@aton.abo.fi (Annika Forsten INF) writes:

>In article <1992Jul29.121641.25112@nntp.hut.fi> laku@vipunen.hut.fi (Lauri H Eklin) writes:

>>	   BTW, some swedish friends told me that the "finlandssvenska"
>>   is the best-sounding version of the group swedish/norwegian/danish..
>>   and it was an opinion of not only one or two people!

>Well maybe not the best-sounding, but the easiest to understand. It is
>slower and clearer than the other versions. My father who has held lots
>of lectures in Sweden (he is a Swedish-speaking Finn) has been told many
>times that they find him easier to understand in Sweden than they do many
>Swedes.

Personally I agree that "finlandssvenska" is very beautiful, probably the
best-sounding of them all. That it's easy to understand doesn't make it
worse by any means. I'm more hesitant about the sound of finnish-speaking
finns who have leared Swedish as a second language. Some do it good, but
most of the people I've heard don't.

>annika forsten, finland
>aforsten@aton.abo.fi
   _
/Bjorn
-- 
Bjorn Fahller     Phone:              |The opinions above are not necessarily
Trollnasvagen 3A  Intl:+46 920 226870 |those of... Hey! Wait a minute. Do you
S-951 61 Lulea    Natl:0920-22 68 70  |seriously expect Me, a student, to carry
Sweden            << space for rent >>|the official voice of the University?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Sami orthography (was: Finnish question)
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:02:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.092653.21749@nntp.hut.fi>, pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka Juhani Taipale) writes:
> There is another official use for these accented characters.  I think
> that both are used in the Saami language, which has an official
> position in Lapland, and thus they should be taken into account when
> designing a character set for use in Finland. (The Swedish o or ring-a
> is more important in this respect).

As far as I know (and I don't know the language itself, only a
little meta-information), the Sami language contains the sh and
ch sounds, but not zh.  While the language contains several
mutually unintelligible 'dialects' somewhat independent of the
Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish and Russian borders, it seems that
official spelling (at least on maps with Sami names) follows
different rules depending on country.

In Sweden, the orthography is based on conventions borrowed from
the Swedish language.  In Norway, accented letters not known in
Norwegian are used.  I don't know about Finland or Russia
(though I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Soviet cultural
authorities have devised a cyrillic orthography for the language).

	Sweden		Norway		English phonetic
	 sj		 hacek-s	 sh
	 tj		 hacek-c	 ch
	 ring-a		 o		 aw

ISO 8859-4 contains a few letters only found in the Sami alphabet,
such as a letter for the "ng" sound, and a stroked "t" (I don't
know how the latter is pronounced, or in which versions of Sami
these letters are used).
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,no.ef
From: bjornmu@idt.unit.no (Bj|rn P. Munch)
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re:  <None>)
Organization: Div. of CS & Telematics, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 10:16:24 GMT

In article <ANDERS.92Jul28005142@lise4.lise.unit.no>, anders@lise4.lise.unit.no (Anders Christensen) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.173931.2526@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
|> > In article <ANDERS.92Jul27023440@lise12.lise.unit.no>, anders@lise12.lise.unit.no (Anders Christensen) writes:
|> > > It is a test given by military recruits, performed in the seventies.
|> > >
|> > >               Understands:  Swedish  Danish  Norwegian  Average         
|> > >                      --------------------------------------------------
|> > > Swedish recruits               -       23%     48%        36%
|> > > Danish recruits               49%       -      69%        58%
|> > > Norwegian recruits            88%      73%      -         81%
|> > > 

Did they test understanding of written or spoken language?  For the
untrained ear, spoken Danish can be much more difficult to understand
than written Danish.  (IMHO)

|> 3) Radio and TV in Norway don't mind sending music with Swedish text.
|>    In fact, Swedish LP/CD/whatever are often sold 'as-is' in Norway,
|>    without being translated.

Huh?  Who translates music at all?

When Swedes or Danes (or Finns speaking Swedish) are interviewed on
Norw. TV, they usually don't bother to subtitle in Norwegian.

|> 4) Norwegians, when speaking to Swedes, tend to fill in some Swedish
|>    words in the conversation, to make it more easy to understand, and
|>    thus not 'forcing' Swedes to understand Norwegian. I have seldom
|>    heard Swedes do the same thing.

Are you sure you would "hear" that they do?  Listen to some of our
Swedish hockey/fotball coaches when they're interviewed.  Aaaargh!

The only thing that's worse to listen to, is a Norwegian doing this.
There is (was?) a series of comic programs on Swedish TV, featuring
(among others) the Norwegian Jon Skolmen.  I just couldn't bear listen
to his "svorsk", so I turned off the sound when he spoke.  He was just
too embarassing.  :-{

---
Bj|rn P. Munch               | Dept. of Comp. Science & Telematics,
Bjoern.P.Munch@idt.unit.no   | Norwegian Institute of Technology (NTH),
PhD Student                  | N-7034 Trondheim, Norway
 (some filler words here)    | Fingerable addr:  bjornmu@multe.idt.unit.no
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pthomsen@oracle.com (Per Thomsen)
Subject: Re: DANSK mailing list - how to sub?
Organization: Oracle Corp
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:19:10 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Jul21.172350.22341@walter.bellcore.com>, nielsen@bellcore.com (Jakob Nielsen) writes:
> In article <momotaro.711652333@odin> Bryan Stack, momotaro@odin.unomaha.edu
> writes:
> >Last year someone posted a message about a mailing list called DANSK, 
> >with the address dansk-request@sysadmin.com.  My machine does not like
> >this address; says sysadmin.com is an unknown host.  Is this group still
> >going?  If so, what is the correct address for subscribing?
> 
> 
> Yes, the list still exists. I got a message from it as late as today.
> The address is dansk-request@sysadmin.com and I have had no problems
> mailing to sysadmin.com. Try again. 
> --
> Jakob Nielsen, nielsen@bellcore.com, fax (201)  829-2645
> Bellcore, MRE 2P-370, 445 South St., Morristown, NJ 09792-1910, USA


Actually the address is dansk@sysadmin.com, and not dansk-request@..... 

The list is unmoderated, so there is no need to send messages to the request address.

Hope this helps!!!!
-- 
Per Reedtz Thomsen      All opinions stated here are mine, and do not in 
pthomsen@oracle.com     any way reflect the views of my employer.

"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty." (Anne Herbert?)
From: bogstad@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (BOGSTAD Mark IMHEF DME EPFL)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Prices of Ferry between DK-N ?
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:37:49 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

Can anyone recommend a nice trip from Denmark to Norway by ferry
which aren't to expensive?

I'm thinking of the Copenhagen-Oslo ferry or the 
Ferry from the North of Denmark (sorry, I've forgotten the port)
to Kristiansand. 
Or are there other possibilities ???
 
Thanks in advance !!

Mark Chr. Bogstad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re:  <None>)
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<1992Jul27.173931.2526@corax.udac.uu.se>
	<ANDERS.92Jul28005142@lise4.lise.unit.no>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:18:23 GMT

In article <ANDERS.92Jul28005142@lise4.lise.unit.no> anders@lise4.lise.unit.
no (Anders Christensen) writes:

   >Swedes understanding the other language is about half of the number of
   >persons speaking that language who understand Swedish. Why does Swedes
   >seemingly understand the other languages less than Danes and
   >Norwegians (except from the old unfruitful and flamish arguments about
   >being "stupid and arrogant").

  I'm sure this is because Swedes are more humble and modest than their
neighbors - they're just not as convinced of their linguistic abilities.

  Seriously, I would like to know how the questions were phrased. I'm
pretty convinced that a large majority of Swedes have no real trouble
with Norwegian. As for Danish, if somebody asked me, I would insist
that I understand Danish perfectly. Neverthless I might well have to
ask a Dane to repeat a sentence four or five times. It just needs
some practice for the brain to attune itself to Danish. Possibly the
Danes and Norwegians get more of this kind of practice than Swedes do.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: magnus@jaist-east.ac.jp (Magnus Halldorsson)
Subject: Re: AFS exchange: looking for Katrya Layton
Organization: School of Info. Science, JAIST Hokuriku, Japan
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:57:22 GMT

In article <bfrahn.711944437@adelphi> bfrahn@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Brenton Frahn) writes:

   She left for Norway yesterday and should be
   there later today. I'm not sure yet where she's
   staying or what school she's going to.

Well! This should be easy to handle. An foreign girl somewhere in
Norway. Given that only a few million people live there, it should be
trivial to track her. I bet the Norwegians on the net will keep us
updated on her travels as recorded in the local news media.

That reminds me. I know this canadian guy called Mike who moved to
Australia this year. Since I haven't received any e-mail from him,
could you like check up on how he's doing? Thanks a bunch.

Moi

:-)
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish question
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:59:46 GMT
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)

In article <1992Jul29.092653.21749@nntp.hut.fi> pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka Juhani Taipale) writes:
   there are no compounds in which a certain combination of letters
   triggers a different pronounciation than what the letters themselves
   suggest, 

   There is only one exception to this rule, the "ng" compound which is
   pronounced differently than just "n" and "g" appended together.  An

Don't forget the "nk" compound, for example "pankki". Are there other
exceptions?
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic Union (Once more...)
Keywords: EF, Nordic Union
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:58:03 GMT
Organization: A mythological place called Bramming

andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>One important issue (if not the only one) in the EU agenda is
>the lifting of tariffs and other restrictions on trade.  Do you
>really need a union to do this?  How about simply lifting your
>own trade restrictions unilaterally, and expecting other countries
>to do the same?  If they don't, it's their problem, isn't it?

No, it's your problem because you will have a hard time exporting
stuff to them while they will not have any problems selling in
your country. Why do you think trade barriers came around in the 
first place.

>After all, why should any decent government have a say or share
>in me trading goods or services with you, which they don't have
>when I trade the same goods or services with a fellow Swede?
>Do you think governments have an inherent right to tax foreign
>trade or something?

Ehh.. Are you saying that the people in favour of the EU are also
in favour of taxing foreign trade? In that case I have misunderstood
what you said in the first paragraph and you have misunderstood
the people in favour of an European union.
-- 
I neither can nor will at this or any other (previous or coming) moment
in time respect anyone or anything wearing a baseball cap and/or a pair
of boxershorts, unless the wearing of these artifacts is an important
part of a contract giving said individuals or creatures an income of more
than 10 times the average for people with similar educational background.
From: ct@dde.dk (Claus Tondering)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Finnish question
Date: 27 Jul 1992 06:48:09 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

ISO standard 6937 mentions that the Finnish language uses two characters
that look like S and Z with a small v above (a hacek accent).

I have never seen any Finnish text that uses these two characters.
Does Finnish use them? Or has Finnish used them in the past?

-- 
Claus Tondering
Dansk Data Elektronik A/S, Herlev, Denmark
E-mail: ct@dde.dk
From: sharder@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Soren Harder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re: <None>)
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:49:28 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

anders@lise4.lise.unit.no (Anders Christensen) writes:

>I think the most striking numbers emerge when you look at any two
>languages separately:

>  1) 73% Norw. understand Danish, 69% Danes understand Norw. 

>  2) 23% Swedes understand Danish, 49% Danes understand Swedish
> 
>  3) 48% Swedes understand Norw., 88% Norw. understand Swedish

>In 1) the numbers are about identical, in 2) and 3) the number of
>Swedes understanding the other language is about half of the number of
>persons speaking that language who understand Swedish. Why does Swedes
>seemingly understand the other languages less than Danes and
>Norwegians (except from the old unfruitful and flamish arguments about
>being "stupid and arrogant").

There are different aspects that play a role here. One important is of
course to what extent people have met the other languages. Often I've
seen manuals for household appliances in Swedish for products sold in
Denmark, because they haven't been translated into Danish. I believe
the same thing is the case in Norway, while the Swedes don't get
Danish or Norwegian manuals. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). In
Denmark Swedish and Norwegian is taught in school, but not a lot. I
believe the same is the case in N and S, but I don't know how much.
Danes see (or at least saw) Swedish and Norwegian television (if they
can recieve it), but much more Swedish than Norwegian (Because of the
(alleged?) quality, and the quality of reception. Furthermore, people
from Sjaelland (e.g. Copenhagen) cannot recieve Norwegian television
at all).

Other reasons might be linguistic. Modern standard Norwegian has been
very heavily influenced by Swedish and (especially) Danish, which is
one of the reasons that many Norwegians understand Danish and Swedish.
Norwegian litterature more than 100 years old is said to be easilier
understood by Danes than by Norwegians.  But some of the dialects of
N.wegian are very hard to understand for Danes (and Swedes). And then
there is all this stuff with Danes 'mumbling' and Swedes pronouncing
'sh' as IPA [x] (that is like 'ch' in 'Bach') and other factors that
might make communication easier in one direction than in another.

Soren Harder

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Soren Harder, (MSc student)
Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh
(moving to Dk in a week)
E-mail: sharder@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From: rcf@pnet01.cts.com (Bob Forsythe)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Laughing at americans
Date: 19 Jul 92 15:16:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: crash.1992Jul19.151602.16577
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA

hallvard@immhp3.marina.unit.no (Hallvard the Horrible) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.010400.27061@alf.uib.no>, hlirg@alf.uib.no (Roger Greenwald) writes:
>|> I write this as an American. What can I say? There are only two
>|> reasons America hasn't just been laughed out of court on innumerable
>|> occasions. One is military power, the other is purchasing power.
>|> If they both decline enough, there will be a lot of laughing going on.
>
>	Sorry Roger.
>
>	The laughing at Americans has been going on for many years
>allready (even inside the US) though very discretely ofcourse. ;-)
>
>	I remember going down to the coastal express every night
>during tourist season to watch the tourists (mostly germans and
>americans.)
>
>


     Shoot, that's a pastime in any town that gets many tourists.  During the
years that I lived at the beach here in San Diego, we had a ball watching the
European tourists with their pasty white skin and bun-hugger bathing suits
come to the beach and proceed to fry themselves in the sun.  Disliking
tourists seems to be quite wide-spread.  One of the more favored bumper
stickers here has been "Welcome to San Diego - Now go home".  Take my word for
it; you hardly have a monopoly on laughing.

-Bob
rcf@pnet01.cts.com
From: emolinar@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Elizabeth Molinaro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Kate Moore/U of Finland
Keywords: looking for e-mail address
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:08:55 GMT
Expires: 12 Aug 92 23:00:00 GMT
Reply-To: emolinar@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Elizabeth Molinaro)
Distribution: world
Organization: Stakeholder Relations, NCR Corp in Dayton,OH


        The subject and keywords say it all:  I am
        looking for Kate's e-mail address at the
        U Finland, Helsinki, Linguistics Dept.

        If you know her please forward mine:

        elizabeth.molinaro.@DaytonOH.NCR.COM

        Thanks in advance, Elizabeth 


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: mette@gmd.de (Mette Krogsaeter)
Subject: Norwegian gold in the olympics?
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:51:44 GMT

Could somebody tell me (and other Norwegians abroad too?) about which 
athletes from Norway are "expected" to return home from Barcelona
with a gold medal - or maybe silver/bronze? I know about Trine
Hattestad (women's javelin) and the women's handball team, and maybe
Irene Dalby (swimming), but that's about it. What about track, rowing, 
sailing, wind surfing, kayak - I suspect there are a few good candidates 
there, too.

If you don't want to post, please send me an e-mail. I welcome all
sports reports from "up north".

Mette Krogsaeter
e-mail: mette.krogsaeter@gmd.de

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (QUEEN ZENOBIA!)
Subject: Re: Finnish question
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:16:07 GMT

ct@dde.dk (Claus Tondering) writes:

>ISO standard 6937 mentions that the Finnish language uses two characters
>that look like S and Z with a small v above (a hacek accent).

>I have never seen any Finnish text that uses these two characters.
>Does Finnish use them? Or has Finnish used them in the past?

>-- 
>Claus Tondering
>Dansk Data Elektronik A/S, Herlev, Denmark
>E-mail: ct@dde.dk

i have seen them in the word s^akki. or other slavic based words only.
the ^ shoulld also be inverted and most linguistics majors will be able to tell you that they are the equivalent of sh and zh respectively. so the above word
would be pronounced shahk-kee for american readers.
and yes there are two k's in the word  :)
but more commonly i have seen sh and zh written out in finnish newspapers.


heippa
-kimberli

-- 
*******************************************************************************
*Kimberli K Roan          * "I have heard the echoes in the dark, * IRC: good *
*901 W Main -Bsmt.        * dim and distant voices of the past,   * luck in   *
*Urbana, Il USA 61801     * and I've seen so far into the night,  * finding me*
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re:  <None>)
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<ANDERS.92Jul28005142@lise4.lise.unit.no>
	<1992Jul28.080848.29125@nntp.nta.no>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:46:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.080848.29125@nntp.nta.no> styri@hal.nta.no (YuNoHoo) 
writes:

   >The question is, of course: Do the swedes "hear" that you're filling
   >in these words?   :-)

   A Swede who worked in Norway for some years told me that he
after a while thought he spoke pretty good Norwegian, until somebody
said that his Swedish was unusually clear and intelligible.
From: rtp1@quads.uchicago.edu (raymond thomas pierrehumbert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: San Diego Responds to Potential Dane Invasion
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:26:18 GMT
Reply-To: rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


>I didn't want them to. For one thing, stupid
>grown-ups would step on them, like they were blind or something,

We have a two year old and a sixer, hence about 5 buckets of 
Duplo's, 3 of regular Lego's, a techno-accessory add-on (Tekniks),
gears, wheels, mm.  Despite best efforts, these seem to
have diffused throughout the house.  Every once in a while we
take a rake and sweep them into the corners;  at least this
way, the kids can build something wherever they find themselves
temporarily unoccupied.

The only problem we have is that we follow the Swedish custom of
not wearing shoes in the house (keeps things cleaner).  When one
of those "stupid grown-ups" steps on a Lego (esp. the little 
corner pieces), you find they might be blind, but they sure
can holler.  

I have yet to see one of the kids step on one, not that they
seem to pay much attention to where they are going; I conclude
that there is some kind of ultrasound radiation detection
mechanism (cutting off at around age 14) that allows them to
avoid low-flying Lego's.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: s37755c@taltta.hut.fi (Jochen Grandell)
Subject: Re: Norwegians in Formula 1 ?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:30:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.162731.10571@bnr.ca> dudley.chi@xerox.com (Tim Dudley) writes:
>I never thought of this before, but with the Swedes producing drivers
>like Ronnie Peterson, and the Finns producing drivers like Keke Rosberg,
>how come the Norwegians haven't ever had a driver in F1?  (Or have
>they?)

	Who is this Ronnie Peterson ?? ;-)

	Jochen


Jochen.Grandell@hut.fi

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic