HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lola@lucid.com (Lola McCrary)
Subject: Heinlein (again)
Bcc: lola
Organization: Lucid, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 04:15:01 GMT

In article <C1H9wx.8AI@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:

   You got me, Jim.  The way I stated my first post was misleading.  What I
   *should* have said is: Heinlein is an important author - *especially* if
   you're teaching sexism in sf.  I read his work a lot until I got to be
   old enough to be bothered by his continual reluctance to treat any woman
   character as more than a possible mother to children of important men.

What Heinlein were you reading?  Examples that don't meet that criteria:  

Dr. Mrs. Stone in The Rolling Stones

Grandma Stone in The Rolling Stones

Whyoming in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Maureen Smith in most of To Sail Beyond the Sunset

Almost any woman in any of his short stories

Friday in Friday.

Deety and Hilda in most of The number of the Beast.

   That sounds terribly stident, I know, but it's how I feel.  When I think
   of Heinlein it's with a certain amount of sadness.  Here's a guy who is,
   technically, a wonderful writer, not to mention incredibly inventive.
   If he could only have gotten over the problem quite a few men of his
   generation had with treating women as real people.

Heinlein let a woman be an intelligent and capable as she wanted as long as she
had  breakfast ready on time.  Describes most working mothers today.  And
please note that in many of his books men cook and do chores as well.

Just taking the women listed above, Heinlein as least writes about strong
women, emotionally, intellectually and physically.  Maybe *you* don't agree
with the decisions many of the women in his books make about having babies, but
that doesn't take away from the fact that *his* women were more equal to men
than most women who were written about in the 50's, probably the social era he
never graduated from.

I'm female, liberal, and independent, and I've never understood the fuss.

Lola
From: mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Heinlein (again)
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:00:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.C1Iy12.88r
Organization: Indiana University

In <JOHN.93Jan27101707@sekrit.WPI.EDU> john@sekrit.WPI.EDU (John Stoffel) writes:
>>Lola> In article <C1H9wx.8AI@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:

>>Lola> I'm female, liberal, and independent, and I've never understood the fuss.

>Hear hear!  What is this morbid fascination to rip apart authors, esp
>when they can't defend themselves?  If you take heinlein in the
>context of the AGE he was brought up in, and writing in, what was so
>bad?  Oh no!  I've started another flame war...  sigh...

>				John

Hmmm.  What is this morbid fascination with saying your piece - nothing
wrong with that - then throwing in a comment about flame wars?  Is this
supposed to warn me off responding to you?  Is this supposed to soften
the intent of your post?  After being in read-only mode on the net for a
while, I can understand people walking on eggshells (so to speak) when
talking about ANYTHING in any of the sf groups.  I've noticed that sf
fans of all ages, sexes, preferences (reading preferences), etc. tend to
have a hair trigger on the ole flame thrower.  Don't sweat it, John, I'm
not like that.  

Also, I'd like to point out - AGAIN - that I LIKED Heinlein's WRITING.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't consider my posting of
the previous twenty-four hours to be ripping him apart.

Lastly (yes, I hear you all cheering),  I also consider the argument
that Heinlein was writing "in the context of the AGE he was brought up
in" bogus.  That's like saying it was OKAY to own slaves because it was
legal in the early part of American history.  This is a sticky new
arguement we could get into here...and I trust it would NEVER be
resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

To get back to my first post (if any of the people working on an sf
syllabus are still reading), I think Heinlein would be an excellent
author to study IF only (not simply "only") to begin an argument in your
classroom as to what exactly constitutes sexism (or any other ism for
that matter), and should it be excused because of the era of the
writing?  Here's an author who is widely praised (and rightly so) for
his contributions to the genre - but does that mean he's a saint?  Does
that mean anyone who has the slightest problem with his work shoud be
blasted off the net by guys who have me calling the "castration patrol"?
(Not you, John - someone else.)

This, in my opinion, is how sf should be studied, rather than as a
contest to see who has read more.

>--
>Youth of today!  Join me in a mass rally for traditional mental attitudes!
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>john@wpi.wpi.edu | Work Station Specialist | Worcester Polytechnic Institute
>John Stoffel     | 508-831-5512 (work)     | Worcester, MA  01609
From: sl7sg@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: WANTED: DUNE soudtrack!
Date: 25 Jan 93 02:04:15 MDT
Organization: Utah State University


	I know this isn't the place for this, but..

		I want the DUNE soudtrack, (cd preferably)

	If anybody knows where I could find one, I would be greatly indebt!


		Brandon
		-Lynx
		-Shade Pendragon
From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: PFRC and name problems (was Re: Fan Societies/groups)
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:14:59 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <silk.727726754@mcl>, silk@mcl.ucsb.edu (ken mencher) writes:
> Well, As Minister of Embezzlement for UCSB's Shadow Society, I must say
> we've had little problem establishing ourselves as a "serious" club on
> campus...

I sympathize.  On the Michigan Technological University campus in
Houghton, Larry Niven was very popular, so the SF fans took a great
name from one of his stories:  The Permanent Floating Riot Club.

The PFRC soon found that this name is a disadvantage when, for
example, trying to get money from the university's student
government... or getting permission for projects from deans... so they
began to refer to themselves as The Science Fiction Club for prosaic
purposes.

Bill Higgins  (Honorary Member, PFRC)  | "I shop at the Bob and Ray
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | Giant Overstocked Surplus
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | Warehouse in one convenient
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | location and save money besides
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | being open every evening until 9."
From: dittmare@gtewd.mtv.gsc.gte.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:51:07 -0800
Organization: GTE Govt. Systems, Electronics Def. Div.

Any reading list recommended by this group  (since we would qualify as a
committee:  i.e., a life form with six or more legs and no brain) will 
undoubtedly include more books than could realistically be used in one class. 
Therefore, I recommend that any formal submttal include the reasoning behind
the choices so an instructor can  tailor the list to the age group, length of
class, and purpose (e.g., early study, sf in the 90s, etc.) desired.

Some of the recommendations spurred strong feelings on my part, so I'd like
to share my reasoning to back up a few of the (IMHO) obvious requirements in
hopes of helping them make the final reading list.

Remember, all these are in MY opinion.  I make no pretense of speaking
for anyone else out there (dead or otherwise ;-}).

Asimov: I, Robot		
	The three laws of Robotics have been used more than any concept in sf 
	except time travel.  Perhaps the best example of fiction leading fact
	since Verne.

Clarke: Childhood's End	
	Great introduction to metaphysical sf.  Bound to start a LOT of 
	debates (the only other book that came close to starting this much
	discussion in my memory was Atlas Shrugged.  Could also use 2001 et 
	al, but Childhood's End is self-contained and short enough for use in 
	a class.

Heinlein: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
	Bridges his early work and the later works that are the source of the 
	the great RAH debate on the net.  Also, we need to teach the word 
	"taanstafl" to our young.

Niven: Neutron Star		
        An example of existing science being used in a story.  Taught
        physicists the importance of tides in a steep gravity well.
        Additionally, the other short stories in the original book could be
        used as an example of a consistently built future.  Other authors have
        built consistent futures (not just sequels to original stories),
        but  the Known Universe is one of the longest and (in case you've
        forgotten, here's another "IMHO") best.  

Submitted for your enjoyment,

Eric
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:02:46 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <C1GtwF.wp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
> Yeah, I would consider Heinlein important if you're teaching sexism  
in
> sf.

Trying to start a flame war, huh?

Actually, sexist or not (and I really DON'T want to start that
war again), Heinlein is one of the handful of most important
and influential writers the field ever had. Any course that
wants to cover the development of SF (and not just what
are the good books of today) has to include Heinlein.  (Wagner
was an anti-semite, but you really can't discuss the history
of opera without including him.)

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: myers@cs.scarolina.edu (Daniel Myers)
Subject: Re: A question about the non-mundane world.
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 25 Jan 93 07:22:47 GMT

dick@smith.CHI.IL.US (Dick Smith) writes:

> [stuff deleted]

>Fandom is the non-mundane.  Only a few would confuse fandom with the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I strongly disagree with this as the term "mundane" is commonly used
among gamers and SCAdians (including those who don't care for SF) and
still retains the same meaning.  In addition, SCAdians use the term to
indicate the non-SCA aspects of their lives, and also their non-period
clothing is frequently referred to as "mundanes".

On the other hand, it's a better definition than I've ever come up with.

>-- 
>Dick Smith				dick@smith.chi.il.us
>		Dick & Leah for DUFF!!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Myers (Madman)		| If the creator had intended us to walk 
myers@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu	| upright, he wouldn't have given us knuckles
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Subject: Re: Designing a Course
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:40:53 GMT

mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:

>Sad, isn't it, how none of these guys bother to credit any work done by
>women?

     If you want it done, what's wrong with you doing it?

                                                     -- jf

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: shihy@fraser.sfu.ca (Shih Yap)
Subject: Re: A Little Diversion...
Summary: Reptile not amphibian
Keywords: wizard, amphibian, reptile
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:19:31 GMT
Expires: Sun, 7 Feb 1993 08:00:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.142419.16427@infodev.cam.ac.uk> SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk writes:
>>~>>
>Quite possibly Clothahump, from Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" --
>can't think of any other amphibious wizards off-hand....

  Clothahump - Grand Wizard in the "SpellSinger" books.
               A tortoise. Definitely reptile. Not amphibious.
		Amphibians are frogs, toads, axolots, salamanders ...

Just a few words.
>
>--
>\S
>SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk | "Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for
>        ___         |  some people it is a complete substitute for life."
>        \X/         |     -- Andrew Brown, The Independent
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Date: 28 Jan 1993 15:44:01 GMT
Organization: CUMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu

In article <C1H2rE.Ho4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
|> I've got no problem at all with including Heinlein, as he was most
|> assuredly an important author.  Does this preclude his writing being
|> terribly sexist?

Does it matter?  For crying out loud, we're not talking about a course
on Contemporary Views of Women and Feminism in SF...we're talking about
an overview of the field here.  So Heinlein was sexist...so what?  Does it
matter?  He was raised in, and wrote for, a different time (and he's
sort of dead these days).  You can't expect to make ex post facto
judgements on Heinleinesque social policies, any more than you can
bitch about how anti-Jewish Shakespeare was in "The Merchant of Venice."

If we all start walking around with chips on our shoulders, we'll never
get _anywhere_.

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: A question about the non-mundane world.
Date: 25 Jan 1993 10:49:38 -0600
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamsun.tamu.edu

In article <727910961snz@keris.demon.co.uk> chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton) writes:

>In article <879@smith.CHI.IL.US> dick@smith.UUCP writes:

>>Fandom is the non-mundane.  Only a few would confuse fandom with the
>>real world... much as we pretend.

>Well, people like the SCA also use 'mundane' in the same sense, but for
>them the inverse isn't 'fandom' (or the related activity 'fannish').  I
>don't know of any single word that would mean *to everyone*
>non-mundane...

Issac Asimov, in his copious editorial and anthology work, invariably
referred to the world of SF writing, fandom and publishing as "The
Real World", and everything else was just that... everything else.

You could always tell Asimov was about to write about SF happenings
when he would preface his paragraph "Meanwhile, in the real world..."

AIIGH! I MISS HIM SO MUCH! Somebody get me a Kleenex. I hate talking
about people in past tense.

-- 
#      Rick Russell | TAMU Meteorology | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu       # 
#     "Tomorrow! Tomorrow! I'll claw ya, tomorrow!                     #
#      It's only a litter box away!"               - Bill the Cat      #
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course
Date: 28 Jan 93 18:34:03 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <C1Kp0r.8oy@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
> In <1993Jan27.225228.6798@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)  
writes:
> 
> >What educational objective is achieved by including either of  
these
> >on the reading list?  Their main distinction seems to be that they
> >are among the earliest female sf authors -- though including Moore
> >is chancy, given the difficulty of identifying her work.  If you
> >wish to include women, choose cases where it mattered.
> 
> I'm sorry, but your obstinance in forbidding women a place of  
importance
> in science fiction puzzles and angers me.  Not just you, Mr. Zweig,  
but
> quite a few of the male members of this group.
> I'll give two examples of women's work:  Leigh Brackett's "The Long
> Tomorrow", which is speculative fiction.  It's a fair and equal  
argument
> on both sides of the agrarian v technology argument.  C. L. Moore's  
"No
> Woman Born" explores mans reactions to cyborgs.
> 

The Long Tomorrow is probably Bracket's best work. Howver, does
it belong when the course only has room for 4 or 5 novels?

I agree with you about Moore, though I'd have picked Vintage Season.
However, you missed one of Dani's main points: it really isn't
clear how much of various stories were written by Moore and how much
by Kuttner. To some degree, they were coauthors on most of 
what they produced. The pseudonyms Lawerence O'Donnel and 
Lewis Padgett were used by both. 

(I've been looking into this a bit, since one book
that NESFA Press is considering for later this year/early
next year (after we finish The Complete Short SF of Cordwainer
Smith) is The Essential Kuttner/Moore.  After looking at
it, we decided we really couldn't just do a Kuttner
collection or a Moore collection, since it is often near
impossible to tell who did what.)



--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:31:06 EST
From: <JEK133@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course
Distribution: world
 <1993Jan20.175015.14906@netcom.com> <1jk7poINNc47@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>

     This discussion reminds me of a comment by Larry Niven in (I think)
"N-Space," to the effect that any science fiction course should begin with
Dante's "Divine Comedy."  Niven regards that as the first science fiction
story, for what it's worth.
     My own syllabus would include "Neutron Star" (the anthology) by Larry
Niven, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" by Philip K. Dick (one of the
first cyberpunk stories ever), the "Foundation" trilogy by Asimov, "The Moon Is
a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein, "The Mote In God's Eye" by Niven and Jerry Pour-
nelle, and "Neuromancer" by William Gibson.
     I realize that this list ignores the very early roots of science fiction,
but I never found the earlier stuff particularly interesting, and the list
reflects my own personal biases.  And that's my two cents' worth.

             Josh Kaderlan (please forgive me, I'm new here)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:43:54 GMT

Dani Zweig writes:

>>The list of authors: B. Aldiss, M. Atwood, A. Huxley, Le Guin,
>>and H. G. Wells.

The list of titles <guess I ought to have posted them as
well...sorry>:

FRANKENSTEIN UNBOUND-Aldiss
THE HANDMAID'S TALE-Atwood
BRAVE NEW WORLD-Huxley
A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA-Le Guin 
THE TIME MACHINE-Wells

Also, there was an anthology book of approx. 300 pages, with about 4
selections from Asimov. Alas, I have returned the anthology <as well
as Aldiss's and Atwood's writings> to the bookstore for much needed $.

--
The SCA is a great deal of fun: we can have Archaic and eat it, too! 
                                        - Master Ioseph of Locksley 
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:17:34 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <C1H2rE.Ho4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
> In <1k3jqmINNmqn@transfer.stratus.com>  
jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
> 
> >In article <C1GtwF.wp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
> >mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
> >> Yeah, I would consider Heinlein important if you're teaching  
sexism  
> >in
> >> sf.

> I've got no problem at all with including Heinlein, as he was most
> assuredly an important author.  Does this preclude his writing  
being
> terribly sexist?

Take a look at your two responses above. The first states that
"you would consider Heinlein important if you're teaching sexism
in sf."   The implication is that the only ones who would
consider Heinlein important are those who are sexist, and that
Heinlein is not otherwise important.  It is that I which I
responded to.

And yes, someone can both be a good writer and have sexist
attitudes (though I don't agree that Heinlein was "terribly"
sexist). 

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:52:37 GMT

Dave Weingart writes:

>Well then, members of the r.a.s.m faculty, let's come up with a proper
>overview of SF of the 20th century, with required and suggested reading
>lists.

	I think that's a good idea. Should we see if we can distribute
this to literature profs? Many don't have net access, and several that
do don't understand the uses of it. IMAO, more evidence that typical
literary types have no business teaching an f and sf course...:-/

>First, should we or should we not include fantasy?  Some works obviously
>cross over the obscure line between the two, but are they important enough
>to be there?

	I say put it in. Many non-sf types confuse the two, and the
divide ought to be shown in such a course. IMO, the 2 genres are at
least sisters.

--
If mankind had been meant to run around nude, we would have been born naked! 
                                                   -Taras the Cossack 

Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: David Brin
Date: 23 Jan 93 10:40:42
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu's message of Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:42:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.004227.4452@news.vanderbilt.edu> talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert) writes:

Here we go again...

   Hi, out there...

   I'm a pretty big fan of David Brin, and I was wondering if the SF cultural elite 
   knew anything of his whereabouts. At the very end of _Earth_ (the book, not
   the planet), there's a thing for COMING IN FALL 1992 -- S T R A T O S  by David
   Brin. And I remember that the "Fall" part used to be "Spring" 1992... 
      Any of you guys have any idea if/when this book is coming out? Also, is Brin
   making any plans to write more novels in the "Uplift" universe? 

Stratos has been renamed "Glory Season" and is due for hardcover
release in July. Brin moved back to the US, got married, had a
kid and moved again and is now working on the next Uplift novel,
working title "Brightness Reef", to be out Real Soon Now.

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|