From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:23:34 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the
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In article <74od02ZY25ow01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
>Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
>Date: 10 Oct 92 19:39:39 GMT

>In article <1992Oct9.035249.26037@macc.wisc.edu> bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes:
>>In article <Bvtzx9.5rL@acsu.buffalo.edu>, psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes...
>>
>>>In article <1992Oct7.164938.27930@macc.wisc.edu>, bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes...
>>> 
>>>>these groups deny each other the title too.  The LDS should learn to shrug
>>>>these charges off and realize they are far from alone in the dreary world of
>>>>being non-EC Christians.
>>> 
>>>      This is called equivocation. The issue is not whether 
>>>unitarians are christian, or whether being a member of a presbyterian 
>>>church makes one a christian. The issue is whether being a member of 
>>>the LDS makes one a christian.
>>> 
>>>      By changing the subject at hand, one is ignoring the issue.
>>
>>Who's changing the subject?  I have two dictionaries at hand, the first 
>>definition given in each for the word "Christian" are:
>>- Declaring Belief in Jesus as Christ
>>- One who believes, or professes to believe, in Jesus Christ.

>Which Jesus though?

>>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints clearly meets these
>>requirements.

>Are you sure it's the same Jesus?  (See 2 Cor 11:4)

How can two people be absolutely sure they are talking about "the same
Jesus"?  Isn't this requirement for being a christian a little stringent? 
What principle of identity would one be using here?  And how can one 
even settle the question of whether two individuals in the same religious 
tradition [LDS, Catholic, or whatnot] are thinking of, worshipping, etc, the 
numerically identical being? [Compare: religion requires faith. But how
much? Isn't faith a matter of degree? If so, what is the minimal degree
required? -- Moral: there's likely to be irremediable uncertainty and 
arbitrariness in any delineation of degree.]

The question non-lds people have is, do the mormons affirm the deity of 
Jesus of Nazareth?  The answer appears to be yes. But what does it mean
to affirm "the deity of Jesus"? Well now, there you will probably get
different answers from different people, even in the same communion, 
whether lds or not. Hence, if the lds answer is, "Yes, I do affirm this",
further one cannot legitimately go.

So, I am inclined to suggest that if an LDS person says he accepts the
deity of Jesus that person ought to be able to affirm that he is a
christian, and let the issue rest there.  

As to the question whether lds believe that just being a member of the 
mormon church is sufficient to assure salvation, I have one point to
make. I doubt mormons say this, since they believe, I think, that not
everybody who will be "saved" [in their idea of salvation] is or will
be a member of the church in this world. So there's an end to that
line of questioning. Also, I'm sure there are some who have joined
that communion under false pretenses, like members of the CIA, or
communists agents, and who knows what else, as they probably have in
many other religious organizations.  And I doubt any lds person would
want to say that their church membership alone assures them of eternal
life.
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