HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sak@geosc.psu.edu (Sridhar Anandakrishnan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Flemish Desem bread from Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:30:11 GMT
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: Geosciences Dept., Penn State Univ., University Park, PA, USA

Has anybody tried the "Flemish Desem Bread" in Laurel's Kitchen Bread
Book?  It sounds like a type of sourdough.  At least there is no yeast
involved, and a starter made from flour and water alone.  The curioous
thing about the desem (as I understand the description, not having
done it yet) is that the starter is _buried_ in your crock of flour,
and every day you take out this little ball of starter, cut off a
crust that forms around it, add some water and flour, knead, and
rebury it in the flour.  After 2weeks it is ready, and you use part of
this starter to make the desem.  

It doesn't sound as if the starter has any exposure to the air to
allow any lactobacilli to land in it??

Anybody tried it?  Anybody had desem bread?  It sounds neat, and I
will probably try it soon, but if anybody has any input...

Incidentally, Laurel's Kitchen is a good book of whole-wheat recipes,
including a few Indian ones -- dosa, chapati, and idli.  There is a
sourdough recipe or two in there (other than desem) but they use yeast
to begin the starter (boo,hiss :-) ).

Sridhar.
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Sour Dough Pollution
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:17:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: mahendo.1992Aug28.171706.29333
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA


I saw a newsclip on CNN last night.  It was brief (and I wan't 
paying too much attention) so I may not have heard it correctly, but ...

They were discussing things (besides cars, factories,etc) that pollute --
lawn mowers, BBQs, leaf burning -- when they cut to a small bakery
where the owner made sourdough bread.  The reporter mentioned 
that the yeast creates pollution.  I can understand how the oven
might, but the yeast?  I guess it's due to the CO2 the yeast
produce (do they produce any other gases?).  {Of course, if
they consider yeast to be polluters because of CO2 then we're
all quilty}

I'm almost positive they were blaming the yeast in the bakery.
The owner was flabbergasted and basically said he didn't care
and wouldn't quit baking.

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough



 I've been experimenting with my sourdough culture. I have the San Francisco
 culture.
 I remove my culture from the frig, add about a 1/2 cup of bread flour, and
 around a 1/2 cup of warm water, 85-90 degrees. I prep it at 85-87 degrees
 for around 8 to 10 hours. I then add a cup to a cup and a half of bread
 flour and a cup to a cup and a half of warm water and proof at 85-90
 degrees for 10 to 12 hours.
 I have a Hitachi bread maker and decided to try sourdough in the machine.
 I can program as many rise times as needed, normally the machine is
 programmed for two rise times.
 My first loaf with two rise times and only the culture was a squat very
 dense/heavy loaf. Real sour flavor.
 I made another loaf using the culture and 2 tsp. of commercial yeast.
 It rose higher, was not as dense, much lighter, and had a milder sour
 flavor.
 The loafs I make by hand fall somewhere in between those two extremes.
 All in all, the time expended for making sourdough in a breadmaker vs by
 hand is about the same. (It takes 4 hours 20 minutes in the breadmaker.)
 The only thing I would recommend is that if you don't care for a very, very
 dense loaf, you'll have to add some commercial yeast to get your bread to
 rise properly in a breadmaker.
From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: sourdough ecology clarification
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:37:38 GMT
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington

Just a quick corection:  I stated, or implied, somewhere along the
line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and
breaks it down into sugars.  I know better than that.  The reason one
malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch.
The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase,
but apparently the amylase is from the grains.  This amylase would
normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and
add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are
produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and
lactobacilli.  

Sorry if I confused anyone.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Culture Problems
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:53:58 GMT
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
: The 24-hour proof was (should have been?) done at 75 degrees and it only
: uses 1 tablespoon of starter.  The cooler temp and the low amount of
: starter is why it works well.  20 hours using a cup of starter (etc.) would
: be too long because it was probably an 85 degree proof.

That's exactly what I did with my 20-hour proof, and what I was afraid
Chris might have done.  I was (and am!) still learning the whys and
wherefores of sourdough, and hadn't quite figured out exactly how to
implement David's instructions yet.

I've had some friends kiddingly accuse me of making sourdough "scientifically"
whereas they did it "as an art", but what can I say, I'm a nerd.  :-)
I do a lot better when I understand WHY I'm doing something rather than
trying to blindly follow a recipe.  Especially since with new/complex
procedures (like waking up a dry starter and getting to the point of
good bread) it's sometimes hard to follow directions to the letter.....

Your eductational comments have been VERY helpful, Brian.  Keep it up!
The "half/half starter vs. food" comment caused a light to switch on,
as did the comments above about the 24-hour proof.  Thanks!

Gary
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: villi, lactobacilli & dormancy
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:23:58 CDT



One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli
do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage.
This should have some strong implications for the debate that
has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive
the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough
cultures.


1)	There is no yeast involved in the villi culture so there
	is no question about whether just the "yeast alone survived".

2)	The villi culture responded and made villi.  Villi is 
	distinct enough from yogurt that I could be certain that
	this was not just yogurt.  The probability that I just
	happened to have a local strain of villi on my fingers
	at the time I tried to revive the villi culture seems 
	to be extremely remote.  The most likely explaination
	is that the villi culture came in the mail from Seismo
	Malm and that it did indeed survive the drying process.

3)	After arriving in the mail the packet with the dried 
	villi culture from Seismo remained in my freezer for
	a period of three months before I made any atempt to
	revive it.  This seems to prove that the lactobacilli 
	can survive long periods of dormancy in frozen conditions.  
	(This seems so reasonable--It would have to in order 
	to survive winters in the wild before being domesticated.)


On the otherhand, if you follow the "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
you might propose the theory that the infinite improbability drive
caused the Heart of Gold to pass through every point in the Universe,
picking up a villi culture in Finland and depositing it in my culture
jar just to satisfy my wishes.  ;^)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Culture Problems
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:31:40 CDT

 dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
 cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) writes:

|>To console myself, I started the Russian culture from the wet sample that
|>David Adams gave me (thanks again Dave) and was able to make two very nice
|>loaves by Sunday.  This culture has had the opposite difficulty.  The yeast
|>has been very agressive in producing CO2 and ethanol but the bread has only
|>a very faint sour taste.

|
|If this starter was revived from dry starter, then it may have lost it's
|lacto bacilli content, thereby resulting in the lack of 'sour'.  I believe
|the Russian is usually quite sour, so who knows?  Dave?
|
|Brian D.
|

I'm willing to bet that within a few more repetitions that sour will 
start to show up.  Just wait you'll see.  Let that first proof go 
long and warm and the rise will slow down and it will start to stink.


P.s. Brian, that viili experiment really convinced me that the lactobacilli 
can indeed survive drying and freezing.  (The viili culture was more than 3 
months dried in my freezer.)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: villi, lactobacilli & dormancy
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:47:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:
>
>
>One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli
>do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage.
>This should have some strong implications for the debate that
>has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive
>the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough
>cultures.
>
> [reasoning deleted for space]
>

I agree 100%!  In the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Quite obvious my dear
Watson!" 

Didn't one of those brilliant microbioligist types on the net explain one
time about how yeast sporulate and bacteria like lactobacilli form some
type of shell or casing when living conditions get worse?  Hey you out there!
Could we get a re-run on what bacteria do when the environment worsens?
Like when it gets too cold or too dry?

Oh yeah, I'll be restarting my design-of-experiments (DOE) samples, all 8
of them, this week and will be posting my subjective findings on what
appears to be the best way to dry starter.  Larry Z. is still working on
the offical microorgnanism counts in the sample I sent him (duplicate of
my 8 samples).

Brian D.


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: viili update
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:12:55 CDT

I wrote:

|
|This time it came out like a thick and slimy yogurt.  I suppose
|this is more like what the viili was supposed to be like.  I
|haven't tasted it yet.
|

This morning I had a chance to tase the viili.  This was an 
experience.  I can hardly describe it.

It supprised me that it has a very mild taste, almost tasteless.
(How do you describe a new taste?  How do you describe the taste
of tofu?)

I discovered there was a whole new dimension to "slimy".

When I first picked up the bottle it seemed that there was a 
division in the jar.  The bottom was a smooth white.  Then about
2" from the bottom there was this flat line that divided the
bottom from the top.  Above the line the stuff was a little
more clear.  I stuck in a spoon to stir and wo!  The stuff was
like *ecto-plasmic slime*.  I tried to spoon it out of the
jar and this webby slime hung to the spoon and stretched about
2 feet from the spoon to the jar.  The micro-organisms must
form a slimy web.  It was soooo fascinating.  I stired it up
and poured a little into a bowl and mixed in some strawberry jam.
I played in it with the spoon a bit.  This was really weird.
The webbing tendency reduced quite a bit with the stirring, but
it was still ecto-plasmic.  I diped the spoon in and pulled it
out and the spoon was covered just like you would expect if it
was yogurt.  Then I held the spoon upside down over the bowl
and the ecto-plasmic slime fell off and left the spoon clean!

My kids came up and asked what it was.  I said, "It's viili.
Ya' want some?"  They said "yea!"  I was shocked.  My fickle
kids who won't touch my sourdough or eat anything with onions
wanted this viili, without ever having tasted it before.

I divied it up, and they ate it all.  Left none for me.
Well I still had most of what was in the jar.  It tasted
milky, slimy, almost tasteless, and it seemed to be full
of little bubbles, but you couldn't see any.  It was like
this slimy fizz.  Really strange!

This batch was raised on powdered milk.  (No fat)  Siesmo
indicated that the villi wasn't so slimy like when 
whole milk was used so I will have to try that.


For you fellow Estado Unodenses (US citizens) I will
have viili culture available just like the sourdough
cultures.  Send SASE and a SMALL ziplock bag to

David Adams
1625 Dixon Dr.
St. Paul Park, MN 55071.

Please email me first.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: oak@fmd00.larc.nasa.gov (Theodore Creel)
Subject: f
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA, USA
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 02:52:26 GMT

In article <HOLDER.92Sep2131055@gourde.positron.med.ge.com> holder@gourde.positron.med.ge.com (Kacy Holder) write> Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
> Path: news.larc.nasa.gov!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!news.mr.med.ge.com!holder
> From: holder@gourde.positron.med.ge.com (Kacy Holder)
> Sender: news@mr.med.ge.com
> Nntp-Posting-Host: gourde
> Organization: Computer People Unlimited, Milwaukee, WI
> References: <1992Sep1.135953.21337@ccad.uiowa.edu>
> 	<1992Sep1.143607.5238@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>
> 	<1992Sep1.165837.26391@ccad.uiowa.edu>
> 	<1992Sep1.174140.8372@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>
> Date: 2 Sep 92 13:10:55
> Lines: 41
> 
> 
> 
> In article <1992Sep1.174140.8372@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>    In article <1992Sep1.165837.26391@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
>    >In article <1992Sep1.143607.5238@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>    >>In article <1992Sep1.135953.21337@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
>    >>> Hello,
>    >>>
> 	   < account of great culture from the air >
> 
>    >>	2 1/2 hours rise for a new airborne starter!?!  That rivals
>    >>the Russian culture!  You didn't add commercial yeast did you?
>    >>Do you live near a sourdough bakery? ;-)
>    >
>    >No I didn't add commercial yeast.  This is what worries me do I have some 
>    >mutant strain or what?  This stuff really bubbles, is there something wrong, or
>    >is this just good critters?  I am having a PBJ sandwich with the bread now for
>    >lunch it tastes good (mild sourness) should I be worried?
>    >
> 
> 
> I just started one from the air here in Wisconsin and it was bubbling within
> 12 hours and making good, rather sour, bread within a few days.  I think
> we must have good bugs in the upper Midwest.  No bakeries in sight and
> my nutritionist mother assures me I don't need to worry about safety> 
> I guess San Francisco isn't the only place to grow decent beasties.
> ;-) ;-)
> 
> Kacy
> 
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> --
> Katharine C. Holder
> Computer People Unlimited, Inc.
> email: holderk@positron.med.ge.com
> 
> "These opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the client for whom 

>  I am working or Computer People Unlimited, Inc."


 i to have had the new starter experance with a2 1/5 rise time.
location = yorktown,va.the yeastie beasties muat be everywhere




ted creel
oak@efpb00.nasa.larc.gov
--
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: holder@gourde.positron.med.ge.com (Kacy Holder)
Subject: Re: First Timer Question
Organization: Computer People Unlimited, Milwaukee, WI
	<1992Sep1.143607.5238@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Sep1.165837.26391@ccad.uiowa.edu>
	<1992Sep1.174140.8372@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:10:55



In article <1992Sep1.174140.8372@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
   In article <1992Sep1.165837.26391@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
   >In article <1992Sep1.143607.5238@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
   >>In article <1992Sep1.135953.21337@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
   >>> Hello,
   >>>
	   < account of great culture from the air >

   >>	2 1/2 hours rise for a new airborne starter!?!  That rivals
   >>the Russian culture!  You didn't add commercial yeast did you?
   >>Do you live near a sourdough bakery? ;-)
   >
   >No I didn't add commercial yeast.  This is what worries me do I have some 
   >mutant strain or what?  This stuff really bubbles, is there something wrong, or
   >is this just good critters?  I am having a PBJ sandwich with the bread now for
   >lunch it tastes good (mild sourness) should I be worried?
   >


I just started one from the air here in Wisconsin and it was bubbling within
12 hours and making good, rather sour, bread within a few days.  I think
we must have good bugs in the upper Midwest.  No bakeries in sight and
my nutritionist mother assures me I don't need to worry about safety.

I guess San Francisco isn't the only place to grow decent beasties.
;-) ;-)

Kacy


-------------------------------

--
Katharine C. Holder
Computer People Unlimited, Inc.
email: holderk@positron.med.ge.com

"These opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the client for whom 
 I am working or Computer People Unlimited, Inc."
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: made my own starter yeah !
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:21:03 GMT


In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) writes:
>Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all.
>I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles
>started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite
>vigerous.
>
>In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the 
>new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature
>enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?),
>
>I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ?
>
>RYE
>
>r.senjen@trl.oz.au

What the book is probably refering too, most likely due to the author's
personal experience, is that new starters may not be stable yet.  That is,
the symbiotic relationship may not have stabilized.  The results of that
is that the starter may have a large concentration of lacto bacilli, but
a weak concentration of yeast.  Sometimes a starter may appear to be
bubbly enough, yet the bread dough rises very slowly.  You author is
probably assuming that if you keep feeding the starter every few days for
a month or more that the yeast will have a chance to take hold and be more
reliable.  In actuality, your new starter may be just fine for bread and
it also may stabilize more as it goes, but still make good bread all along.
Flour, water, salt, etc. are all cheap, so why not go ahead and try now?
If it doesn't work, continue the refregerate-wait a few days-feed-refrigerate
cycle and continue to try making bread.  If bread made from it rises slow
sometimes, and fast other times, and you've been feeding it consistently,
then it's not stable yet.  Give it a bit and all of a sudden it'll become
very healthy and it'll work reliably for as long as you own it (assuming
you treat it properly).  I've had some new starters make good bread right
from the start, while others have produced slow-rising bread for awhile
first.  After you gain more experience with new starters, you should even
be able to tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy new starters
just from the feel of the dough.  This is because the different microorganisms
in the starter affect the dough differently, i.e. because of the different
amount of gas they produce and possibly due to the critters 'eating' 
differently (starch vs protein) and also due to the different waste byproducts
they produce.  You'll notice that starter with low yeast concentrations also
tend to make the dough 'spread' more as it rises rather than keeping the
dough in a good ball shape, i.e. slower gas production so the dough stays
quite relaxed.

Brian D.


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: belas@comb1.comb.umd.edu (BOB AT COMB)
Subject: Re: viili
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Maryland, Center of Marine Biotechnology
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:36:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.144049.2560@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cray.com writes...
>An update on the viili
> 
>The first batch came out like fresh (un-cured) goat cheese.  
>(or goat milk curd?  Like they use in the Mexican restaurants.)
>A grainy white curd had seperated to the top of the bottle and 
>the whey had collected at the bottom.  I seperated the two and 
>composted the whey.  The curd had a grainy look like grits or 
>cream-o-wheat.  It was nearly tasteless.  I ate it on my taco 
>salad.  My family members refused to taste it.  They all thought
>that I was trying to poison them.  I was fascinated that
>the milk culture would have coagulated like this with out
>any rennet added.  I wonder if I can use this process to 
>make a cheese.
> 
>I thik that the culture behaved this way because the proof
>was a little too warm.  So I mixed more milk in with a bit
>of the curds & whey and put it back to proof overnight. 
> 
>This time it came out like a thick and slimy yogurt.  I suppose
>this is more like what the viili was supposed to be like.  I
>haven't tasted it yet.
> 
>---
>--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
>___________________________________________________________________
>       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
> 
	David,

	For what it's worth, the way Gem Cultures tell its customers to
prepare viili is quite different.  Basically, they recommend culturing
for no more than 6-8 hrs at room temp.  The milk should become very viscous
(the real word I want here is snotty, sorry) in this time.  It should not
form curds and whey, nor should it have a strong acid taste.  I don't know
if there are different viili cultures (with different) characteristics, but
you might try this method.  I can provide a more detailed description of 
the Gem instructions if you wish.
	
		Bob Belas
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	"Adversity makes men, and
	 prosperity makes monsters."
		Victor Hugo
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	Belas@comb3.comb.umd.edu