From: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM (Frank Farkas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:41:09 GMT
Reply-To: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: qual



About placing a quilt on members of a church (brimstone and hell fire).

>> Frank Farkas
>  Barry Olson


>> Barry, it looks like that you know diddly about LDS believes, yet you 
>> want to look like an expert, who knows more about what we believe in
>> then we know our own self.

>Standard response- tape recorded message:-)

Well, do you think that you know more about what I believe in then you!
Why is it that I have great difficulty remembering when you asked any LDS
members what they believe in? Why is it that I only remember you telling
us what we believe in? 

>> 
>> #1- You should know that we believe that only the sons of perditions
>>     will be denied to go to heaven. We know that we won't go to hell,
>>     and I personally know that you won't (you know too little).

>How can you know(big K)all this? Do you really mean you speculate:-)?

How I know or what you believe is not the issue. What LDS believes are 
the issue! The point I am trying to make is that we don't sweat about going 
to hell regardless what you say. Get it!

>> 
>> #2- Works has to do with rewards, not with salvation.

>Depends on who one is talking to at the time. Even so, when do
>you understand or where is the cut-off line when you have done
>enough works, or don't you know?

Enough work for what? To go to heaven? You don't need any work to be saved, as
Paul makes it clear. Some people would feel very comfortable in the telestial
kingdom, or the terrestial, and some would feel comfortable in the celestial
kingdom.  Some don't finish high school, some goes to college, others goes
on the gratuate studies, and some won't stop until they die. You see, for
us the issue is not if we go to hell or to heaven. I hope you get what I am
trying to tell you.

Progress is posite and exciting. Unfortunately, some like to present progress 
and growth as a negative thing. To most people learning, growing and progressing
is an exciting and rewarding thing to do. How do you feel about it? Anxious
to find it out!

>> 
>> I Corint 3:13-15
>> ****************
>> "Every man's work shall be made manifast: for the day shall declare it, because
>> it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what
>> sort it is."
>> 
>> "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive
>> a reward."

>Are these "works" something one does spontaneously from the heart,
>or works which are forced out of duty to receive reward(brownie points)?
>Etra credit: Have you ever found yourself wondering if you have done
>enough, or not enough and should do more?

Different people do it for different reasons. Some reasons are better then others.
The best reason for doing "work" is genuine love (read I Corint 13). Doing it
for any other reason besides love will do nothing for the doer.
 
>> "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer a loss: but he himself 
>> shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

>This sounds much like "vain" works in hopes of receiving brownie points.
>These works are too thin(superficial)to survive a blast.

You are right! There can be other reasons too. Like evil works (continue to hurt
others, robbing, killing, etc).

 
>> 3#- You got it all backwards. Since I became a member of the LDS church I never 
>>     heard a fire and brimstone sermon. We don't scare our members and we don't
>>     keep them in line with the threat that they will go to hell if they don't
>>     behave. You are confused us with some other churches.

>What does this have to do with my original response on works? Are you
>saying you have never had anyone lay a guilt trip on you for not
>doing enough work for the kingdom?ow about your own mind, does your
>own mind tell you more work is needed? Does your own mind lay guilt
>on you?
>Extra credit: Do you speak for All LDS on this matter?

Do you speek for ALL "Chritians"?

Your memory is very short. Let me refresh it. This is what you said:

"The doctrine of Grace+plus Works leaves a believer in a state of
constant guilt."

You accused my church of keeping its members in constant fear. What I
am telling you is that the LDS church has one of the most positive
doctrines and approach to help people. The teaching and the doctrines lift 
us up, and never dump us in the sewer. We have "man's deprivity" doctrine.
Such concepts are strange to us.

>> 
>> By the way Barry, I just read your response regarding Re: MIND-CONTROL By >ORTHODOX
>> Religions, dated 7 Oct 92 02:34:35 GMT which dealt with the same subject. It

>The article was about "works"?

It was about putting fear and guilt on the members of the mentioned
denominations. This was the same accusition you raised against the 
LDS church. 

>> seams like that other denomination who are having the problem. Is it possible that
>> you got the LDS confused with the Missouri Synod Lutheran and the Wisconsin 
>> Evangelical Lutheran Synod???? -:) 

>Oh? Are you going to say with a "brotherly love" straight face that
>Mormon children are not fed Mormonism day and night from birth to
>infinity? Oops, I might have fallen into a technical foul here. We
>Mormons give our kids a break on (insert generic day:-))
>Also, I want to let you in on a little secret:-)The standard WELS
>teaching on "works" holds that one doesn't even need to attend
>church*, Gasp! True, Grace without dutifull works Is the standard.
>Can you honestly say the LDS church teaches that?
>> 

Yes, we do teach our children. Every one does! Do we do a good job?
We could do better. One thing we we teach is free agency. We are very careful
not to deprive our children of their free agency. But, we could do better.

At least you should learn that people who live in glass houses shouldn't
throw stones.

We don't teach either that one goes to hell because he/she don`t attend 
church on Sunday. You see, we don't believe that a person goes to hell
just because he/she is not a member of the LDS church. Even non-christians
won't end up in hell per our doctrines, only the sons of perditions.

Can you please tell us who you believe will go to hell? Since you
done your best to plaster the LDS with a mud canon, lets hear about
your believes. So, who do you believe will go to hell Berry?


And yes, I do mean it. With brotherly love,

		Frank