HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:59:00 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         UNGER@MVSA.USC.EDU
Subject:      Re: test
X-To:         "Psychology Graduate Students Discussion Group List"
              <PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BITNET@VM.USC.EDU>

Laurence-
Were you referring to your "anima" message?  If so, it did
go to the list.  When you send something to the list, it
doesn't come back to you.  It just goes to everyone else on
the list.  That confused me too the first time I sent
something!
Jennifer at USC
P.S.  If you get some good advice about how not to feel
hopeless about not having found the right person, please
pass it on to the list!
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:15:05 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tim Tumlin <UFTRT@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: discussion versus "trapping"

Re discussion vs trapping.
First, the assertion that this trapping technique perpetuates the stereotype
of men is sexism. If a woman had done this, we'd say it was typical of a
woman to be so devious.

Second, I otherwise agree that this sort of interaction is unnecessarily
hostile and indicates an agenda other than the interchange of ideas. I
have long disliked the idea of devil's advocates,etc. rather than
candidly exploring one's knowledge and lack of knowledge.
   There are plenty of ways we can offer up lively conversation without
playing games. We are all rather bright people with heads full of facts
and overflowing with opinions. We don't need to be baited.
Tim
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:17:17 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Remo Ostini <rxo868@CSCGPO.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      RE: Introspectionism
X-To:         psycgrad@acadvm1.uottawa.ca

While we are on the topic, I have one of those questions that keeps nagging
at you, and it is related to what Tammy wrote.

Tammy wrote:

> another problem was that empirical science says both the cause and effect
> must be observable. Obviously, the stimuli in an  introspectionist
> experiment is observable, but the effect must be inferred from the subject's
> report. Does this help?

My question is, can you empirically investigate subjective experience.  Tammy's
comment implies that you can't, but my philosphy lecturer couldn't see why
it would be a problem.  I've traced the basis of my difficulty with this
question to a blurring of the distinction between the terms 'objective' and
'empirical'.  Clearly the two words aren't the same.  Supposedly you can't
"objectively" study something that is subjective, the two are mutually
exclusive, aren't they? (I have to admit I'm not even convinced of that one).
But empiricism isn't the same thing, since it deals with the realm of
experience and observation.  Is there any reason why you can't observe
subjective experience, or even collate multiple observations of subjective
experience?

Just wondering.

Remo


Remo Ostini 		       *  rxo868@huxley.anu.edu.au
NCEPH, ANU		       *  "Morality is a vast and inescapable
GPO Box 4, 		       *  conspiracy in which we all participate."
Canberra  ACT 2601, Australia  *  				- Norma Haan
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:49:33 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Walter M. Lakey" <psy9wml@CABELL.VCU.EDU>
Subject:      "from" wont get me far
X-To:         psycgrad%uottawa.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu

Matthew,
     The "From" message in the header of your most recent missive
reads: From: Matthew Simpson
     On my pc, there is no address included for the individual
sender; just the network address.
     Should I have your personal address?
     If so, how can I configure my local ELM on UNIX to have it
included?

walter
psy9wml@cabell.VCU.edu
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:46:20 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         GORDONSE@UNCG.BITNET
Subject:      Re: APA Report

For me the APA conference was sort of like eating spinach when you
are a child--good for you but not very much fun.  I had hoped to
meet up with the Psycgrad group, so did not plan any other social
meetings.  However, I never got to meet any new psycgraders.  I
find it ironic that I could find Kristyn Greenwood in Brussels but
couldn't find you in DC.
     At the ball I enjoyed the actress who posed as a marble
statue and met a few interesting people.  I also met over
40 women in black suits who weren't Loree!
     Psychology-wise, the people who came to my paper presentation
asked very interesting questions and also supplied some useful
info that I want to follow up on.  One of the writers from a
national news syndicate sent for a copy of my paper, so I hope
something comes of that.
     Also in the awards session where I received my research award
several famous psychologists received awards, so I was able to
see and meet some of them as well as other psychologists whose
woork I enjoy reading and/or cite frequently.  It was especially
fun to hear about work which had been analyzed but not written
up yet.
     My advisor had an especially good time.  The media went
wild over her presentation.  Her second day back she did one
TV interview and 3 radio interviews while her co-author did
3 others.  When last seen she had a pile of telephone messages
from other media for interview requests.  However, she has
also been getting calls from the disturbed and the distressed
with some very painful stories.
     Personally, I would hate to see Loree retire as social
director just because the APA message system was so poor.
Her effort was valiant even though stymied by APA's system.

Sharon Gordon
gordonse@uncg.bitnet
gordonse@iris.uncg.edu
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:34:24 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         TBN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      miscellany

1. To J. Daniels--I'd love to have  you post the citation of the Hoshmand
article which talks about clinical vs. experimental epistemology--and I bet
other psycgradders might like it, too.

2. Ditto on Stephanie's point to Tim Tumlin. I'd like to hear what the power
analysis problem is and the various suggestions are on how to deal with it.
Power analysis *is* important, and it wouldn't hurt us to hear at least a
little bit about it...

3. Finally, with respect to Mike B's point that both he and I, though we
are into quantitative methods pretty heavily, also believe that qualitative
methods of data collection and interpretation should be given more considerati
on in the field: Generalizing from an N of 2 is always risky (the quantitative
side of me whispers), but what the heck (the pragmatic side of me whispers)---
it's been my experience that getting involved with quantitative methods and,
to a lesser extent, psychometrics, has amply demonstrated tome (1) just how
fragile and prone to errors (e.g., violations of assumptions, etc.)
such 'robust', 'scientific' methods are, and (2) how much quantitative
procedures are abused (both intentionally and unintentionally) and/or
used to obscure what a datum or data are telling us instead of
*illuminating* some facet of human behavior, and that to me is what
psychology is all about, which is why I find the attitude of people who
obfuscate their results to make them appear to be more beneficial to
their theories to be so puzzling--and infuriating.

I can't speak for Mike, but in getting to really know quantitative
methods, one gets to know just how limited they are--and that's okay.
The positive way to handle such a realization is to open one's mind to
other sources of information such as experiential, introspective, and
qualitative data---and to take with much more of a grain of salt the
quantitative findings you do see where an investigator talks about
the effect like its 'flawless' and 'incredibly robust'.

cheers,

Tor

Tor Neilands, Systems Analyst
Statistical and Mathematical Support Services
                                             ______
Internet: TBN@Utxvm.cc.utexas.edu           /_|_|_ \
Phone: (512)-471-3241, Extension 263        |_|_|_ |      -   -
Address: Com 1                              |_|_|_ |    -    -   0
         Mail Code 12700                    |_|_|_ |      -   -
         UT Ausin                            \|_|_/
         Austin, TX  78712                     ||
                                               ||
" Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and     ||
  I...I took the road less traveled, and      /||\
  that has made all the difference ".
                          --- Robert Frost
Disclaimer: All views expressed above and herein are only those of
the author and do not necessarily represent the views of the University
of Texas, the UT Comp Center, and anyone else I've forgotten to include
in this disclaimer.
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Original_To:  JNET%"PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:58:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         EARLE@UOFPORT.BITNET
Subject:      Reply to Michelle Bengston

HI Michelle!

Sorry for the delayed response - I have tried twice to send messages to your
address and they both have been returned undeliverable.  Which probably speaks
more to my ignorance of the system than your address.  Thus, I am using the
general list to send my message.

I appreciate your offer of help and gladly accept.  If you could please fill
me in on such things as What is the area like?   Is there financial assistance?
What do you think of your program?  What is the political climate with the
faculty?  What is the cost of living in the area?  Is it rural, city, suburban
type living?  How big is the school?  What are the facilities - library,
computers, etc. on campus?  Are you in the Ph.D. or Psy.D. program?

As you can see just about any info will help.  The Oregon environment for
higher education has become bleak with a tax limitation bill that passed last
year.  Most programs have been severely cutback and some eliminated all
together.  So I must go out of state and it's a bit bewildering unless one
has their sites set on an Ivy League school and information is readily avail
able.

Thanks for your help, if you want to try and write to me directly my address
is Earle@UofPort.bitnet.  I hope to hear from you soon.

Cynthia
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:20:41 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Ellen Galloway <henley@PSY.PSYCH.NOVA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: labrys - spelling
              at Aug 24, 92 8:42 am

>
> Excuse me, but is "labrys" a new / different spelling for "labyris - ?
>

Yes, thank you.  I was reading my mail and answering after an all-nighter
and many hours of computer work and my spelling (none to good to begin with)
slipped.                                 Sorry  Ellen



********************************************************************************
            /^\ - /^\        Ellen Galloway
           (   lxl   )       Henley@psy.psych.nova.edu
            \ /l l\ /
               l l           A mind is a terrible thing to waste
               l_l
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
From: bdaniels@psychnet.psychol.utas.edu.au (Brett Daniels)
Subject: Informed Consent in Intellectually Disabled Clients
Keywords: Consent, competence, intellectual disability
Organization: Psychology Department, University of Tasmania
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:53:25 GMT

4th Seeptember 1992

Hi everyone,
	REF:  How to establish if an intellectually Disabled Client is 
	      competent to make a will

	I am trying to develop a procedure for testing an intellectually 
disabled clients ability to make a will.  Has anyone already developed a 
procedure (or knows of one) that adequately considers the clients degree of 
competence to make a will or to consent to treatment?	

	Would be interested in hearing from you if you have.
				Nice talking to you,
					Regards,

					Maurie Gourley
					Dept of Psychology
					University of Tasmania
___________________________________________________________________________________
Brett Daniels                  |     "The blackberry jam tastes like fish"
Department of Psychology       |
University of Tasmania         |                  possibly a Marx brother
_______________________________|__________________________________________________
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:38:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         NANCY BRITON <BRITON@NUHUB.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Trapping is Male?

Not that I wish to "steer" this discussion of male and female conversational
styles, but... my original comment was that a confrontational style was a
male *stereotype,* not a male style.  A stereotype may or not be based in
fact, of course.  I was referring to the commonly held stereotype (maybe
not so commonly held!) that men tend to be considered the more aggressive
of humans.  This stereotype has been extended to include conversational style
as well.  Whether they are or aren't truly more conversationally aggressive
really wasn't my point, although apparently some of y'all have rather strong
views on the reality or not of the stereotype.

Some of you seem to think that there is no other way to hold a conversation
than the point-counterpoint method.  Someone (Chris I think) explained a
position that I share, that some of us (whether female or male) are either
not as skilled at that style, or perhaps just don't like to engage in it.

So I won't bother to elaborate on that point, I concur with Chris totally.

A non-confrontational conversational style is very easy for those of us who
use it!  One person says something, another person says something else.  Areas
of agreement as well as areas of disagreement are *both* recognized.  There
is less "picking apart" of the other person's words.  There is less "devil's
advocate" - taking (taking an opposing view just for fun, even if you don't
really believe in it).  It is more cooperative.  It doesn't involve big
fuzzies mittens (a la Matthew), but doesn't mock the use of kind words either.

nancy at northeastern
briton@nuhub
briton@northeastern.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:47:55 CDT
Reply-To:     "Qualitative Research for the Human Sciences" <QUALRS-L@UGA>
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments:     Resent-From: C150630@MIZZOU1
Comments:     Originally-From: Eric McCollum <MCCOLLUM@VTVM2.BITNET>
From:         C150630@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Suggestion for periodicals
              27 Aug 1992 19:38:34 EDT from <Solomon.Yusim@LAMBADA.OIT.UNC.EDU>

This seemed appropriate to the current discussion of quantitative vs
qualitative research:

  - - The original note follows - -

There is a small but growing group of people in family therapy who are
interested in qualitative research and there is a newsletter about
qualitative research for family therapists.  In one of the past year's
issues of the _Journal of Marital and Family Therapy_ there is an article
on qualitative approaches to family therapy research  (authors -- Moon, Dillon
& Sprenkle).  In addition, there will be a qualitative research track at the
October meeting of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy.
The American Family Therapy Association is sponsoring a special meeting
 on qualitative research in September, I believe.  Don't know the particulars
on that.  Your friend should be familiar with both family therapy organ-
izations.  For information about the newsletter, Anthony Heath at Northern
Illinois University has been part of getting it started and could be
contacted, I would think.  So far, there are no journals in family therapy
which publish only qualitative studies.

Eric McCollum
Marriage and Family Therapy Program
Virginia Tech University -- Falls Church Campus
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:05:02 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Kenneth V. White" <kwhite@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: discussion versus "trapping"
X-To:         PSYCGRAD%UOTTAWA.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU

>  For example, if I am a Freudian expert and I lay a trap for some of you
to step into, such as the debate over the abandonment of the child abuse
theory....

Freud?!?!  Bring it on!

Riding the datalines on my empirical carpet,
Kenn in College Park
Institute for Child Study
(kwhite@wam.umd.edu)
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:10:13 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Matthew Simpson" <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: discussion versus "trapping"

On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:25:00 EDT Someone said:
>I agree that there are other, more satisfying ways to discuss than setting
>"traps" and watching others stumble into them so you can say, "aha! gotcha!"
>
>I think it's sad that conversation and discussion is reduced to a competition
>where one person must "lose" so that the other can "win."

Does this mean that if I now disagree with what you are saying, and I state
many reasons why I disagree, that I am trying to concur you?

This is not the point at all.  The point is not to lose or to win.  The
point is to place one's ideas in the light of scrutiny so that one may
learn the strengths and weaknesses of them.  It is a mental exercise.

By using phrases that reflect a bit of the nature of what is going on in
the conversation, is metacognitive.  Right now, I am "countering" your
assertion that using the word "trap" literally reflects some motive of
the speaker to "catch."  Furthermore, I find the metaphor to stimulate
conversation.  It is not reductionistic.  Sad is subjectively your choice.

I support these assertions by offering you the notions of thesis-antithesis.
There are two sides to every issue, two sides to every coin.  Ever play
Othello (Reversi in Microsoft Windows)?  Yes, the rules are simple.
However, it takes a lifetime to master.

Take your statements above.  What are your motives to assert that the
"trap" metaphor is sad, reductionistic and literally designed to
concur another person?  Did you simply want to communicate these
opinions to others, perhaps submitting a vote to be tallied?  Or
did you prefer to see some sort of response come from someone, perhaps
a disagreement, further discussion?

This is subjective.  But, do you find, as I do, that conversations
where there is disagreement are more stimulating and challenging
than conversations where everyone agrees?

I'll leave this open.  Can you show me a conversational method that
reliably invites stimulating and challenging conversation that is not
confrontational?  If not, you merely dislike the metaphor and you
basically agree with these words?  (You see, I would love to learn
and try out this conversational method.  It would be new to me).

Have fun!

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 10:32:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         ldunn@CSUPOMONA.EDU
Subject:      Need info

Hi all!!! I was wondering if anyone out there knows of any book written
about/by Arthur Chickering?
Thanks :)
Linda
Go Raiders!
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:31:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         ACCNEWS@HOFSTRA.BITNET
Subject:      test

From: drmljg@hofstra.bitnet
Subject: test

I sent a post last week which has not yet appeared, so I am sending this
message to determine if I correctly posted the message.
Laurence Galian
IN%"DRMLJG@VAXC.HOFSTRA.EDU"
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:05:42 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tim Tumlin <UFTRT@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prescription Privileges

Re the debate on psychologists doling out meds:
I'm probably as conflicted on this as the debate among psychologists.
I saw Arnold Lazarus say psychologists are crazy to get involved in
medications because of all the extra risks, liability, misuse, etc.
Here's factoid to stir in the debate: 80 percent of all psychoactive
meds are prescribed by docs other than psychiatrists and psychopharma-
cologists. Meaning mostly GPs. My experience is they give the patient
about 3 or 4 minutes of their time, then script 'em out with an
anti-depressant or anxiolytic. As long as we don't cause major medical
problems, could we do worse?
The politics are very nasty, though. I'd bet that 90 percent of what
psychiatrists have and clinical psychologists don't lies in hospital
and prescription privileges. If they lose those two things, they don't
have a profession. My own feeling about that, which is quite personal, is
that our society might be a lot better off in that case, but that's another
diatribe.
There IS a question of where do you stop when you start letting others
prescribe drugs. A medical/health clinical psychologist with pharmacological
training sounds pretty safe, but what about any licensed clinical psych? Then
the counseling psych people? What about counselor education phds? A phd in
social work? a licensed clinical social worker (which is a master's level)
or a marriage-family counselor? Any mental health worker who takes the
courses?  In fact, I read that that's just how the psychiatrists attack the
psychologists' initiatives in various legislatures: They quietly fund the
lobbyists of social workers and master's level mental health workers who
also want hospital and prescription privileges. That way, the psychiatrists'
lobbyists can show that if the legislatures start to open things up to
clinical psychologists, the entirety of the helping professions will rush in.
   Psychiatry is losing the battle of hospital privileges in a couple of
states, and that means losing alot of income since "case management" can be
a lucrative inpatient fee. I'm sure they'll fight tooth and nail to keep
their prescription pads.
Tim
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