HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:55:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.233323.24625@julian.uwo.ca> roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
>In article <mike_steiner-070193102944@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan4.204851.17743@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I do not believe in evolution, and I have yet to see any reason
>>> why I should. There is plently of evidence against it.
>>
>>On the contrary; there is plenty of evidence for it.  There is precious
>>little evidence against it.  Although the mechanism of evolution is not
>>fully understood, that does not mean that evolution doesn't exist.
>>
>>Evolution happens.
>>
[....]

>I am not claiming that the world was created the way it is described
>in the bible. What I am saying, is that it seems impropable to me
>that human beings came into existence by genetical mutations.

Pardon my bluntness, and I honestly don't mean this to come across
as an insult (I would just be sarcastic, if so), but I get the distinct
impression that you don't have much of a background in the related
sciences.  If that's the case, you might have some interesting
research ahead of you.  As for a very readable book that just happens
to have some rationale for the structural development of the human
body, for instance, check out Asimov's "The Human Body".  It's
available in cheap paperback, too, for around six bucks.  Any 
elementary biology text will have information on examples of
natural selection related to mutation and evolution.

GMS
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: New sins
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 03:43:20 EDT
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>Pardon my naivete', but I was under the impression that "sins" were
>defined by their being prohibited by the writings in the Bible.
>What does a separate list of sins accomplish, and how could the
>list of things considered sins change?  And is there a grandfather
>rule?  Would people be pulled out of Heaven because they did things
>that weren't sins when they got there?  Is there an extradition
>agreement?  I can picture the big line at the Pearly Gates, and
>Saint Peter yelling, "Yablonski, John!  Got some bad news for
>you, buddy."
>

Mark, you had better watch out!  In a few years they might declare
making bad jokes and puns a teenie weenie little sin.  But in that
case I can see St. Peter saying "You can be forgiven for a little
sin, but Gilbert, 24 billion of them!!  This way down..."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cmwolf@mtu.edu (christopher m. wolf)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:45:07 GMT

> I agree with you that there will be a difference between an individual
> who scores 150 and one that scores 60. IQ tests tend to measure vocabulary
> and problem solving skills, and an individual who does so poorly in both
> of those areas, will not be able, ...

What does the average IQ test cover?  Mine was over three hours long,
and covered more than language and problem solving.  I had to draw
people, discuss personal beliefs, do the vocab, several types of
problem solving, talk about walking through a forest and finding
keys and stuff (that was neat-o [for lack of a better word]), and
some other stuff.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 23:48:10 GMT

In article <Jan.7.14.11.12.1993.14982@remus.rutgers.edu> clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.225536.1653@julian.uwo.ca>, Eric Roberts writes:
>
>> To claim that it has evolved by mistakes, is extremely impropable.
>
>Really?  What do you base this opinion on?  A billion years is a very
>long time.  Long enough for evolution to produce creatures who don't
>believe in evolution, in fact.
Long enought to produce cretures that believe in miracle.

>
A billion years is not a long time at all, considering the time it would
take for the species to reproduce, the mutations take effect (and for
favorable to occur). Sure there may be some improvements, but every
time a fav. mut. occurs in one area, the propability of another to
occur that would still improve the system is smaller. 
 
>You are aware of the recent bird migration results, right?
I do not know what exactly you are reffering to... Be more specific.

>-- 
>Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ 08807-2618
>
>Score: 0, Diff: 1, clong killed by a Harvard Math Team on  1


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: kkirksey@world.std.com (Ken B Kirksey)
Subject: Evolution n 
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:39:45 GMT

In article <Jan.8.02.20.12.1993.3771@romulus.rutgers.edu> clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.234810.25718@julian.uwo.ca>, Eric Roberts writes:
>> Sure there may be some improvements, but every time a fav. mut.
>> occurs in one area, the propability of another to occur that would
>> still improve the system is smaller. 
>
>I don't understand what you're saying.  Consider organisms with a
>very short generation length, bacteria and viruses.  Where do you think
>the AIDS virus came from?  It wasn't around 100 years ago.  How about
>the drug-resistant strains of various diseases, e.g. tuberculosis?
>That's evolution that's occurred recently.


Which only provides evidence of natural selection and differentiation
within species.  It says nothing about the mechanisms that 
produced speciation.
>
>>> You are aware of the recent bird migration results, right?
>
>> I do not know what exactly you are reffering to... Be more specific.
>
>Of course you don't.  Scientists have recently discovered that a
>certain species of bird has changed it's migration path (to a more
>amenable destination).  Since this is genetic in birds, that's another
>recent example of evolution.

I dated a veterinarian (avian specialist) for a year or so, and migration
was one of the topics I discussed with her.  No one knows for sure
how birds determine migration path, and it has certainly never been proven
that it is "inherited knowledge".   My ex seemed to think that the best
explanation had to do with the earth's magnetic field and certain
sensory organs located in the bird's head.  I don't remember the details.
Suffice to say that no one have ever proven that such knowledge was
inherited.  So this isn't even good evidence for evolution.
A
>If you're a creationist, consider Adam and Eve, and then consider
>the diversity among humans today, e.g. Asians, Africans, Europeans.
>How did this come about if evolution didn't occur?

If one it dumb enough to read the Genesis creation account literally,
racial diversity would be difficult to explain.

-- 
+----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Kirksey                | "A man cannot be too careful in his choice     |
| kkirksey@world.std.com     |  of enemies."                                  |
| The World, Brookline, MA   |                - Oscar Wilde                   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: kkirksey@world.std.com (Ken B Kirksey)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was Re: IQ Test?)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:35:58 GMT

In article <3HT!D1U=B@linac.fnal.gov> matt@severian.chi.il.us (Matt Crawford) writes:
>Eric Roberts:
>> I am not claiming that the world was created the way it is described
>> in the bible. What I am saying, is that it seems impropable to me
>> that human beings came into existence by genetical mutations.
>
>Try this simple exercise.  Describe in your own words just how long a
>period of time is a billion years.  Compare it first to the duration
>of a chemical reaction, then to the reproductive cycle of a single-
>celled organism.
>
Which says absoultely nothing about the probability of the accumulation
of RANDOM favorable mutations producing something even as simple
as an eye.



-- 
+----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Ken Kirksey                | "A man cannot be too careful in his choice     |
| kkirksey@world.std.com     |  of enemies."                                  |
| The World, Brookline, MA   |                - Oscar Wilde                   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:42:14 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1993Jan8.173044.23511@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) wrote:
> 
> In article <Jan.8.02.28.12.1993.3789@romulus.rutgers.edu> clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
> >In article <EIVERSON.93Jan6221336@aiaia.nmsu.edu>, Eric Iverson writes:
> >
> >> My next door neighbor (170 IQ, Ph.D in physics at age 21) who joined
> >> with me was even more infuriated.
> >
> >How smart can he be if he's friends with you?
> 
> That's pretty nasty, Chris.  Actually, I can see his point.  The first
> time I went to a Mensa activity, I was disgusted by it.  Two guys in
> particular.  Still don't know why they were so ornery.

Intelligence is no guarantee of social graces.  The percentage of assholes
in Mensa is approximately the same as in the general populace.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Subject: Re: IQ negatives
Organization: Computing Research Lab
	<1993Jan6.160118.6151@HQ.Ileaf.COM>
	<1993Jan6.123441.12709@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:33:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.123441.12709@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> johnson@sleipnir.pb.wes.mot.com (Mark Johnson) writes:

   In addition, an abundance of native learning ability may encourage
   some individuals to "coast" through elementary and/or high school
   without learning the discipline and habits required to succeed in
   higher education or in the workplace.  This has been one of my
   failings.

I coasted through elementary school
I coasted through middle school
I coasted through high school
I coasted through my BA in CS
I coasted through my MA in Linguistics (didn't even read some of the books)
I *haven't* coasted through my MS in CS
Finally I have found something that requires more than casual thought.
Unfortunately, at this point I'm too bored, burned out and jaded to
willingly expend the effort.
Isn't intelligence wonderful?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Iverson				Internet: eiverson@nmsu.edu
Computing Research Lab
Box 30001/3CRL				Life is something to do when
New Mexico State University		you can't get to sleep.
Las Cruces, NM 88003-0001			-Fran Lebowitz
VOICE: (505) 646-5711	
FAX:   (505) 646-6218
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cmwolf@mtu.edu (christopher m. wolf)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:56:48 GMT

galster@plains.NoDak.edu (Dwight Galster) writes:
>And if you think the Bible is not God's book but just the writings of
>fallible men, then you have, in my opinion, a very weak basis for any
>kind of religion.  If you yourself are to decide what God says and what
>God means, that effectively puts you above God.  It is the supreme form
>of idolatry. (This paragraph applies only to those calling themselves
>Christian.)

And thank God us Christains don't give a %#$@ what you think.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:18:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.141731.22407@wam.umd.edu> amanda@wam.umd.edu (Me again) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.204851.17743@julian.uwo.ca> roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
>>In article <01GT3O31M8EAADDQGG@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>>>
>>>>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>>>>Message-ID: <1993Jan2.065016.7699@julian.uwo.ca>
>>>>
>>>>In article <01GT0W4N5TS2ADDIMC@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
>>>> Hvatum) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>Vocabulary correlates fairly well with a range of other abilities.
>>>>>That's a fact, even if it's not clear why.
>>>>
>>>>What evidence is there that it does?
>>>
>>>[...]  Their regression
>>>statistics show a correlation between verbal SAT and freshman grades.
>>>Maybe you think that reasoning is a little too circular?
>>
>>So what? Since when does performance in school indicate intelligence?
>
>Define "intelligence."  What is this quality you call "intelligence?"  How
>can we judge it?  
>
>Can it be measured?
>
>If it cannot be measured, it thus must not have any effect on the world (as
>such an effect could be used to measure it) and thus, in my opinion, does not
>exist (or is not worth arguing over).
>
SAFE!  EASY!  FUN!  GUARANTEED TO MAKE YOU A GENIUS!

If you would like your IQ measured in the privacy of your own home,
send a short paragraph describing WHY I AM A SMART PERSON and $5 to:


  MARK STEWART'S OPINION OF YOUR IQ
  c/o:
  G. Mark Stewart
  IHP-1F-420
  263 Shuman Blvd.
  Naperville, IL 60566


Disclaimer:  Perceived IQs greater than 140 not guaranteed to coincide
with measures by other tests.  Smarter people not guaranteed to be
perceived by others as smart.  Offer void where prohibited.  Not
accepted by Mensa or high-IQ societies other than the GMSSSFC
(GMS Super-Smart Folks' Club).
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mukesh@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mukesh Prasad)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Reply-To: mukesh@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mukesh Prasad)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 16:01:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.140548.21802@wam.umd.edu> amanda@wam.umd.edu (Me again) writes:
> In article <01GSYXPOFNKIADDCAK@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
> 
...
> 
> Does anyone else on this forum occasionally get the feeling from society
> that a little smart is better, more useful, than a lot?  To clarify, that 
> slightly-above-average people contribute more to society in a more efficient 
> manner than most "genius"-IQ types?
> 
> I expect it's just an illusion based on the relative numbers involved.  And
> the fact that lazy geniuses get noticed, while lazy above-average persons
> blend in too well.
> 
> amanda@wam.umd.edu        - Certified Lazy Person -        Amanda Babcock

It is quite possible that what makes a person have a high IQ
may also have negative effects.

Even if there isn't something of this nature from a biochemical
point of view, it does appear that the person with a lot
of "smart"s will soon learn that s/he is usually more often right
than not -- negative effect of this being that s/he will not
learn to change his or her mind (easily) when wrong.  This will
then have a negative effect on the general process
of learning.

Also, almost everybody (at least on this newsgroup) must have
met people who are clearly very bright, but got too bored
by the math teacher or by all their friends...

In other words, very high IQs may have various self limiting
factors involved.

  /Mukesh
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: radler@nord.tostit.ca (Robin Adler-Pope)
Subject: Something in us going wrong...
Reply-To: radler@nord.tostit.ca (Robin Adler-Pope)
Organization: Tostit Northern Associates, Calgary, AB
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 12:15:39 GMT


gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> In article <1993Jan5.141731.22407@wam.umd.edu> amanda@wam.umd.edu (Me again) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan4.204851.17743@julian.uwo.ca> roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
> >>In article <01GT3O31M8EAADDQGG@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
> >>>>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
> No proof has been presented that [intelligence tests] measure what they claim
> to measure. The evidence available is limited to a few correlations,
> mostly with school performace.

Jesus, people.

This newsgroup is getting surprisingly flat.  The arguments about the
validity of IQ testing are getting old, and not gracefully.  Anyone
remember Scott Tai?  Tai's emergence as more than simply a gadfly in
the early days of rec.org.mensa was in part a result of his own
cleverness, but also in part a default by the other writers.  It's hard 
to avoid the suspicion that the technique Eric Roberts uses here is 
essentially the same stunt - a formal strategy intended to give a fresh 
look to some battered, timeworn ideas.  He isn't saying anything in his 
articles that hasn't been said before, and it's just not very interesting;
no, it's dead dull - banal by any standard.

Further, some writers here *still* haven't cured their tendencies toward
prolixity.  Like all clever people, these writers will have to guard
against falling in love with their own facilities.  Just learn to listen
a little more.  What a thought.

-robin

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: hector@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Hector Garcia)
Subject: Vocabulary for IQ?
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:55:39 GMT

Just out of curiosity. Can I become a supergenius if I memorize 
the meaning of every word in a big dictionary?
What then if I decide to live the rest of my life in a foreign
country? Do I automatically become dumb upon arriving at a place 
where a strange language is spoken?
IMHO, intelligence is observed in individuals capable of solving 
new problems, with little information, with little time. I am 
definitely not an authority in measuring people's ...(ANYTHING), but
it seems reasonable to me to associate intelligence with 
"ABILITY TO LEARN AND ADAPT TO NEW SITUATIONS". Vocabulary tests only
measure knowledge of words.

I am posting this because I still haven't heard a convincing 
argument for including vocabulary questions on IQ tests.
BTW, why is it that MENSA does not count the GRE analytical score
along with the Verbal+Quantitative? Isn't Analytical ability a
good indicator of intelligence? 

My opinios are mine, mine, mine, so don't steal them!  
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hector C. Garcia             
eehcg@ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (That's EES1S0 last digit is zero)
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 11 Jan 93 13:43:00 GMT
Organization: Draper Laboratory


>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>Message-ID: <1993Jan8.040946.13039@julian.uwo.ca>
>
>In article <mike_steiner-070193104411@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com
> (Mike Steiner) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan6.214524.25582@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
>>(Eric Roberts) wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know of any way to predict performance, what I do know is that
>>> IQ tests fail to do so.
>>
>>SATs have proven to be a valid predictor of performance in the first year
>>of college or university.
>
>What does first year of university predict? It predicts absolutely nothing.
>I have seen just as many people who did poorly in the first year (since
>they were bored to death) and later did very well, as those who did
>well in the first year (in a high school like enviroment) and very
>poorly later.

Your refutation is irrelevant.  Had you included the low-scoring SAT
students who were not admitted to the university, they may not have been
able to do well in any of the college years.  That's the purpose of the
SAT - to distinguish between those who should be admitted and those who
should not - not to predict grade differences among those who are
admitted.

Eric, you continue to use the word "predict" as if you mean "prove".  In
the statistical sense, "predict" is like "predicting" the weather.  The
weatherman predicts it's going to rain tomorrow, he does not prove it.
If he's right 70% of the time, that's enough to make some people listen.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: Vocabulary for IQ?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:13:00 GMT


>From: Hector Garcia <hector@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
>Message-ID: <1993Jan8.185539.24782@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
>
>Just out of curiosity. Can I become a supergenius if I memorize
>the meaning of every word in a big dictionary?

No, but you'll probably learn more than the words, if you have
any curiosity at all.  If indeed you only memorize the words and
their definitions as sets of words, you'll probably do poorly
in using those words, or recalling them in the desired
context, which is what many tests test for.

>What then if I decide to live the rest of my life in a foreign
>country? Do I automatically become dumb upon arriving at a place
>where a strange language is spoken?

Hey, all anybody said is that vocabulary provides an estimate
of something - it isn't the thing itself.  If I fill up a
rain gauge with a fire hose, does that mean it rained really
hard?  That's about what you're saying!  Since most people
don't go around memorizing lots of words all the time, vocabulary
is for *most* people one of the best indicators of what's
measured on an IQ test.  That's all.

>"ABILITY TO LEARN AND ADAPT TO NEW SITUATIONS". Vocabulary tests only
>measure knowledge of words.

It has been pointed out several times recently on this newsgroup
that vocabulary is one of the better measures because it
indirectly measures learning in the past.

>I am posting this because I still haven't heard a convincing
>argument for including vocabulary questions on IQ tests.

I recently (a week or two ago) posted a quote from one of the
leading authorities on human intelligence today, in which
he said why vocabulary is one of the best single measures
of intelligence.  Shall I repeat it?

>BTW, why is it that MENSA does not count the GRE analytical score
>along with the Verbal+Quantitative? Isn't Analytical ability a
>good indicator of intelligence?

I'll bet you anything it's due to inertia on the part of the Mensa
psychometricians.  Also, the ETS isn't very forthcoming about
percentiles of combined scores.  In fact, their guide to college faculty
on the GRE says percentiles on combined scores are not available.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa