From: robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick)
Subject: Re: lying to oneself (was Re: Sanctity of relationships)
Distribution: world,soc
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:07:55 CDT

Thanks Fred, we just had a cold snap up here, and we can use the heat...

Fred said:
: I said:
: >: Melony sez...

     [question]
          [answer]
     [rhetorical question]

: She was being rhetorical here. I doubt she meant for you bore us with a
: point-by-point refutation.

Reminds me of a story.  A teacher, very frustrated with his class, wonders
out loud, "Why is that these kids feel they have to answer every
rhetorical question I ask."  A kid in the front waves her hand 
frantically, "I know!  I know!"

: >Why is it so easy to get caustic comments out of this subject,
: 
: Because you are coming across as incrediable stupid or naive, and some
: people have lost the patience necessary to deal with explaining things
: to others that are refusing to believe what they hear and see because
: of their stupidity and naiveness.

I don't know why it is, but the posters who respond like this are more
dear to me than the ones who agree with me.  Must have to do with the
emotional intensity.  On this particular subject, by the way, I seem
to be running about 30:30:40 - Strongly Agree: Agree and Disagree a 
little, see my point but still think I am probably wrong:Strongly 
think that I am "incrediable stupid or naive", immature, lacking
in sufficient life experience.  Oh yeah, and boring - this is the one
thing I would rather not be, but I can live with it.

: Ok. Try this on for size (you seem to have ignored the alcoholics/etc.
: that others have mentioned in other posts) :
: 
: 	people and their bodies and their often incorrect body images
: 
: Have you never run into women (or men) who think they are fat when
: they (by medical standards) are not fat ? Women with anex(damn, I forget

Of the ones I have run into, it is not medical standards that these 
people are going by.  It is society's standards.  And thence the 
person's own individual standard.  "Cleary lying" to themselves?
I don't think it is clear at all who is lying to whom.

I'm sorry, was that rhetorical?

: 	people with no or low self-esteem
: 
: Have you never run into people that are really brilliant and competent but who
: are convinced that they are worthless stupid people ? They are lying to
: themselves about how stupid they are and believing it.

Again, the people I have "run into" are often confused about society's
expections, but the smart people know they are smart, even though they
sometimes express the words to the contrary.  The attractive people
know they are attractive.  They just think the they should be smarter
and more attractive.  A "smart" person would not have done something
so stupic, therefore I am not smart enough.  This person doesn't want
to be with me, therefore I am not attractive enough.  I think that 
we know the truth, but we still feel compelled to try to meet and
exceed society's standards.

: Or ... 
: 
: 	fred "my patience just ran out. Ooof" walter

Well, that's ok, because I am also tired of third person stories, too.

I think the question is very complex, and also very sensitive to many people.  

If it is really true that people lie to themselves, then I think that the
belief that so many people are lying to themselves may be one of the
fundemental lies.

rob derrick