HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tobis@skool.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Subject: Re: Save the Planet and the Economy at the Same time!
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:44:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.205955.10722@netcom.com>, ladasky@netcom.com (John J. Ladasky II) writes:

|> 	For myself, I believe that history teaches us that improved
|> living standards are the cause, and that reduced population growth is the
|> effect.  Yes, we need to educate and combat poverty first.  However, I
|> think that history shows us that improving the quality of life RAISES
|> per capita consumption rates.  Look at the United States.  Imagine the
|> trouble we would have if the First World grew at Third World rates! 
|> Therefore, population control IS a necessary precursor of an improved
|> environment.

I'm afraid you haven't made yourself clear: are you saying we should find
a way to control population in poor countries BEFORE increasing living 
standards? 

Of course, to the extent that resources are finite, this would be great,
but it presents a prisoners' dilemma/tragedy of the commons. In a poor
society, it is in the individual's interest to have the largest number of 
children, to maximize the chance of a secure old age, while it is in
the society's interest, in forming a stable and sustainable society, to
have small families. In such an important matter, only the strongest 
coercion can convince the individual to comply. 

Fortunately, in more complex and successful societies, the advantage
is toward small families. Thus the humane concern of spreading prosperity
and the environmental one of limiting population coincide.

It is true that persons in affluent societies consume much more than
persons in poor societies, though the plethora of numbers (thirty-seven,
a hundred, 275 times as much...) seems to me completely fabricated except 
where it focusses on a single resource. But it is also true that affluent
and modern societies have considerable room for progress in the amount
of environmental impact per unit of affluence, and their populations are
stable. 

Meanwhile, the exponential population growth in poorer societies 
INEVITABLY will lead to catastrophe sooner or later, as an equivalent 
exponential decline in impact per person in those societies is tantamount
to mass starvation in short order.

It's clear that we in the west need to reduce our impact, but that is in no way
identical to reducing our comfort. Meanwhile, it is blindness to assert
that the environmental problems of the western countries are more severe
than those of the poorer and especially the more heavily populated of
the poorer countries. 

Technological wealth is more like software than hardware: sharing it
with someone doesn't mean you have less of it. Getting the rest of
the world (including certain parts of US society) to modern standards
is the only way out of our dilemma shy of global fascism. And I think
it needs to be done very soon. Justice to humans and respect for life
in general are in agreement.

|>      "Talking about music is like
|>       dancing about architecture."

nice quote.

mt
From: bserina@igc.apc.org (Bob Serina)
Newsgroups: ca.environment
Subject: Re: Campus Environmental Contacts
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:42:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1glaeoINNi5m@charnel.ecst.csuchi:1964285684:cdp:1332900124:000:2394
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!bserina    Jan  4 18:42:00 1993


Dear Brian,

As my favorite E. S. professor. used to say: "There is no such thing as a dumb question."

>>> The environmental studies faculty has approved intern credit for participation in the  program.

>> Why should a group such as yourself get this kind of support when your opponents do not?

I am not sure our opponents are not getting support.  Factions of  the environmental groups and the business groups routinely clash on the cost-effectiveness of recycling versus disposal.  If they wish to petition their department for credit for a study to discredit recycling, more power to them.

>>> We are planning to  send a letter to State Senator Hayden asking for a portion of the Cal State budget be allocated to recycling, ... .

>> If colleges want to recycle ect. then why don't they just do it?

In 1989 I was a charter member of the recycling club here at SJSU.  Since then we have continually been fighting with the administration and the grounds staff for the opportunity to place recycling containers and bins on campus.

The people who see to it that the campus lights are kept on and the walks are swept have a mandate that is outlined by the State Legislature and the Board of Regents.  Whenever we recyclers ask for any support in the recycling effort, we are always told that they do not have any money in the budget for recycling.  That is why we are asking for even a token sum to be written into the budget.

Also, the state government has chosen to mandate that cities in the state reduce the amount of solid waste going into their landfills.  This effort will require people trained in solid waste management.  I feel the campus setting is an excellent one for future waste managers to get started in their field.

Any change that does not have an immediate cost advantage will have to be pushed along, things such as; greenbelts around cities, endangered plant and animal preservation, the elimination of things like PCBs, asbestos and leaded gasoline.  All of these hurt the bottom line in the short run, but those of us who support them feel that, like planting a lawn in your front yard, it doesn't put money in your pocket but if you prefer seeded grass to what passes for native grasses these days the extra cost is wort


h it in the long run.
I hope that answers your questions, and I hope you will join us in our effort to "educate" the campuses about recycling.
Newsgroups: ca.environment,sci.environment
From: dhepner@cup.hp.com (Dan Hepner)
Subject: Re: Seatbelt and child seat law question...
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 03:13:30 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

From: barry@mothra.rose.hp.com (Barry Fowler)

> I wonder if you need to wear one on a motorcycle :-)

27315 explicitly excludes motorcycles.

> I see this as one more reason to be pulled over for a "invasion of 
> privacy" inspection on one's vehicle.

You got it.

Dan Hepner
Newsgroups: ca.driving
From: marc@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com (Marc Pawliger)
Subject: traffic school and still paying fines
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations Division, Palo Alto
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 23:15:43 GMT

I read in the Merc' recently that since legislation was passed that makes
you pay your traffic ticket fine PLUS all the "assessments" (which usually
amounts to ~130% of the fine) even when you go to traffic school, traffic
school enrollment has dropped ~20%.  So does this mean that in the course
of trying to pull in more money the state is now losing it?

When did this lovely piece of blackmail get passed?  I got my first ticket
in four years recently and was quite unpleasantly surprised to have to pay
$235 PLUS traffic school fees instead of just school fees plus a $25 court
fee like the last time I went to school...  Granted this is all much
cheaper than a fat hike in insurance, but....

+  Marc Pawliger     IBM Personal Systems Multimedia       Mt. View, CA   +
|   Internet  marc@awdpa.ibm.com                UUCP  uunet!ibminet!marc  |
|    IBMinet  marc@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com         phone  (415) 694-3893      |
+       VNET  MARCP at AUSTIN              IBM phone  T/L 466-3893        +
From: defaria@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com (Andy DeFaria)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:26:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Change in enforcement policy. (was Re: new law)
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: ca.driving

>/ hpcuhe:ca.driving / altinbay@netcom.com (John Altinbay) /  7:18 pm  Jan  2, 1993 /

>>>1. It attempts to protect passengers, especially children, whose idiot
>>>parents would otherwise not use seat belts for their children.

>>Who is raising the children, the parents or the state?

>Well, *somebody* has to, if the parents aren't!

If the state is going to charge me with the responsiblity of caring for the
child then give me the right to do so as I see fit.  If my decision is wrong
and the child is hurt then I am solely responsible for it.  Otherwise I am not
raising the child the state is and the USA becomes USSR.

I was raised without a seatbelt law.  I was raised without a child seat law.
I survived.  In fact, many survived.  Question is what happened when a child
was hurt due to recklessness of the parent.  Answer is that the parents were
(or should have been) prosecuted for that negliegent behaviour.  The same
should happen now.

Society should assume that people are good by nature and treat them as such.
If you get out of line then punishment should be swift and fitting.  Bottom
line: we should treat people as good and as adult and only assign punishment
when something wrong has indeed happened, not in anticipation of a bad event.
This is the only way you will ever get an adult, educated and responsible
citzentry, otherwise you'll have a society of childlike, irresponsible
bastards who demand their lives from the lives of people who have decide to
remain responsible.  If you expect adult behaviour then you gotta treat them
like adults.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I swear by my life and the love of it that I will    | Andrew DeFaria
never live for the sake of another man nor ask       | Hewlett Packard
another man to live for mine.                        | California Language Labs
                    John Galt                        | defaria@hpda.hp.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: levine@dinsdale.ics.uci.edu (David Levine)
Subject: Re: What is the number to call in smoking cars?
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:51:48 GMT
Distribution: ca

Mitch S. Mohlman writes:

>The number is 1-800-CUT-SMOG, or 1-800-288-7664.

while others have suggested 800-EXHAUST.

The two numbers are for different regions.  For the FAQ:

   800-EXHAUST   Bay Area Air Quality Management District smoking vehicle
      program complaint line
   800-CUT-SMOG  South Coast Air Quality Management District
      to report smoke-emitting (for longer than 10 seconds) vehicle (note
      license number, make, model, date, time, and location).  The AQMD doesn't
      ask for your name.

>I am not sure exactly what is done with this information.  I
>believe the vehicle owner is contacted by mail and informed that
>his/her vehicle has been reported.

That's right.  My guess is that as emissions regulations are tightened
in the future, more will be done with this information.

David
From: hawkes@hillrun.wpd.sgi.com (John Hawkes)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Fastest way from Campbell to LA ?
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:17:56 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Silicon Graphics

In article <1993Jan8.222424.23516@dms.agames.com>, mandel@dms.agames.com
(Glenn Mandelkern) writes:
|> I heard on last night's news that during yesterday's heavy rains
|> 3 trucks had an accident on 152 in the same spot that the Greyhound 
|> bus flipped over during last week's heavy rains.  It was at the
|> ascending 
|> part of the Pacheco Pass.  If you want to call me a '152 Chicken', go
|> ahead!

A few years ago I was driving west on 152, only a few miles from 101,
and an oncoming VW bug lost its left front wheel.  The VW was a hundred
yards away and around a slight curve to the left, and I just watched
that wheel bounce across my lane and up the hillside on my right.
I spent the next half hour musing about that wheel meeting my windshield.
-- 
John Hawkes		hawkes@sgi.com
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Change in enforcement policy. (was Re: new law)
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:45:04 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan9.031815.243@informix.com>, aland@informix.com (Colonel Panic) writes:
> In article <13830@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# ## Up in Canada, the seatbelt laws have saved lives. 
# #
# #I'm sure they have here, too.  So would a law requiring you to
# #get permission from the government before you had sex with someone.
# #"Have they had a test for AIDS?  How about other communicable
# #diseases?  Please have these forms filled out, and come back in
# #three months, and we'll tell you if we are going to unlock your
# #chastity belt or not."
# 
# Please, drop the straw arguments and keep to the newsgroup charter, or
# take it to *.politics.

You mean, "don't point out the parallel argument that liberals
don't dare make?"  The parallels are strong -- and point out the
absurdity of the liberal obssession with running everyone's
lives.

# #This country wasn't founded on the principle of saving lives.
# #It was founded on the principle of individual freedom.
# #-- 
# #Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
# 
# This is laughable -- you're forgetting that slavery was still popular then.

No, it wasn't popular.  It was widely thought to be an institution in
decline, which is part of why so little energy was put into arguing
about it.  The cotton gin, unfortunately, reinvigorated a declining
institution.

# Some "principle of individual freedom".  The word "freedom" doesn't even
# appear in the Declaration of Independence... 

The word "liberty" does appear, however.

#                              but the term "merciless Indian savages" does.
# 
# Alan Denney      aland@informix.com      {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland

Eastern Woodland Indians regularly tortured prisoners to death.
Sounds like they had it right.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: ca.driving
From: suleman@netcom.com (Dani Suleman)
Subject: Fastest way from Campbell to LA ?
Organization: The Whatever Group
Distribution: ca
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:11:50 GMT

Hi...I like to find out which is the fastest way to go to LA from Campbell ?
Up 880 North to 580 East to 5 ? or Down 101 South all the way ? or Down
101 South, then 152 East @ Gilroy (if I am not wrong) to 5 ?

--dani
Dani Suleman
Newsgroups: ca.driving
From: dhepner@cup.hp.com (Dan Hepner)
Subject: Re: accident
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:30:43 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.2]

From: karen@berkp.uadv.uci.edu (Karen Latora)

>Help, I was in stopped traffic last week and let my foot off the brake and 
>the car ***bumped***  the car in front of me.

>Now they are claiming injuries

>Am I just being paranoid, or what is the worst that can happen.

The worst that can happen, if you are insured, is that your insurance
company will pay your liability limit to end the case, and will raise
your insurance rate.

You no doubt have little direct control over this; your insurance
company need not have your approval.

The worst case, if you're not insured, is that your license
will be suspended.  The upside is that few lawyers would file 
suit against an individual in such a case.

Paranoid?  Not at all.  But don't give up hope.  If you really
believe that your insurance company is paying a fraudulent claim, and 
blemishing your record based on that fraud, complain to the state 
insurance commissioner's office.

Dan Hepner
From: shoppa@almach.caltech.edu (TIM SHOPPA)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Insurance for 1990 Ford Escort
Date: 4 Jan 1993 11:23 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: almach.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

>In article <42924@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> tmarvan@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Thomas Marvan) writes:
>>
>>What's the minimum insurance (legally) for a Ford Escort I just
>>bought at the deadlership.  I.e., what does it have to cover?
>>
>>
>>And, anyone with a similar car have any idea what such insurance
>>will set me back?  I'm only 24 (which I understand is a problem) and
>>just got my CA license (I've been driving wiht my foreign Australian
>>license up to now).
>>
>>Can anyone suggest some reputable companies here in Sthn Ca where I
>>could get the best deals.  So far the dealer who sold me the car is
>>trying to make me buy with a private, small operation company whose
>>front man seems a bit shady to me.  Any suggestions?
>>
>>
>>(help.)
>>
	Here is a suggestion which I have heard from many foreign
graduate students here who have only recently been licensed, and thus
also have difficulty finding affordable insurance:
	There is a plan in California (I forget its name) for those
who are unable to get insurance from normal sources.  I forget the plan's
name, but as I understand, all insurance agents have to carry the appropriate
forms for applying to this plan.  This plan only provides liability insurance.
To apply for this plan, you must claim that you have been flatly turned down
for insurance by one or two insurance companies.  This would not be much
of a problem if you have gotten a domestic license only recently, as many
CA insurance companies (California Casualty and AAA, in particular) will
only insure people who have had a U.S. driver's license for more than
3 years.  The rates for insurance under this program are rather reasonable
(I think around $1000 a year if you are Male and 25 and have no record
of traffic violations.)  Sorry that these
details are kind of hazy, but I can't remember much.
	Oh, now I remember the name of the plan: Assigned Risk.  The name
comes from the fact that the state sets the rates, then assigns the "risk"
of insuring you to a regular insurance company, who, under the plan, must
insure you.
	Going to a small insurance company might also be a reasonable thing
to do, even though most of these places seem pretty shady to me.  The thing
to ask is whether the insurance company is "accepted" for business in
California.  Many small companies are not "accepted".  I think you can find
out if a company is accepted or not by calling the Calif. State Insurance Dept.
In my phone book, the number is listed as 800-233-9045 for "Consumer
Information."

					Good luck!
					Tim (Shoppa@erin.caltech.edu)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
From: dhepner@cup.hp.com (Dan Hepner)
Subject: Re: Seatbelt and child seat law question...
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:44:15 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

From: daveb@Ingres.COM (Dave Brower, DBMS hack, [510] 748-3418)

>If I have a station wagon with 5 seats, and they're all occupied by
>people wearing seatbelts, can the two more legally sit in the cargo
>area without belts?  What if they are children?  What if it's a
>pickup truck?

Good one.

I read in the paper lately that it is only required to use available 
seat belts, but when I looked in the CVC, I could find no exception
to the strong statement in 27315(d) that  "No person shall operate
a private passenger motor vehicle on a highway unless that person
and all passengers four years of age or over are restrained by
a safety belt, ...".  This goes on to list exceptions, but none
seem to suggest that if no seatbelt is available, one need not
be used.

Can anyone offer where any exception is suggested?  Other language
covers child seats for kids under 4 years, and similarly doesn't
seem to have any loopholes.

Dan Hepner
From: Renee@cup.portal.com (Renee Linda Roberts)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Never constructed SF freeways
Date: Fri,  8 Jan 93 16:41:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ca

One thing that a lot of people don't realize when they come into this state
is how the '89 quake "adjusted" our freeway system, and the budget allocation
for new ones. Most of the money has been re-allocated to repair freeways (or
outright replace them in the case of 880 in Oakland), so except for 85, 87,
and a small handful of other freeeways, it is not likely we will see the
connectors finished for other freeways. Unless of course, if we vote 
ourselves another tax increase (ala Measure A).

For those considering entering the Bay Area and wanting to know the status of
the freeway system, contact AAA or CalTrans for info on the system. BTW, to
the original poster, the freeways here are parking lots during rush hour, so
if you can adjust your working hours around rush hour, you will be better off.
Also expect an increase in your auto insurance here.
From: ari@leland.Stanford.EDU (Ari Ollikainen)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: new law
Date: 9 Jan 1993 01:35:39 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: mordor.stanford.edu

In article <C0K3wI.M61@rahul.net> phil@rahul.net (Phil Gustafson) writes:
>[attribution lost]
>>
>>    I know no one personally who has been saved from injury by
>>    *wearing* a belt.
>>
>I was involved in an accident in loathsome Pheonix, AZ, a few years ago.
>I walked away with no discomfort, but had back pains caused by seat-belt
>scrunching for the next three weeks.  I rather expect my story would be
>sadder if the energy from the crash not been spread out so salubriously.
>

I hit a patch of black ice on curve at night on a mountain road at about
70mph ... My Volvo impacted a telephone pole conveniently located at the 
end of the resulting tangential trajectory. The pole crushed the sheetmetal
of the hood and right fender all the way to the windshield. 

My passenger and I were wearing Volvo threepoint harnesses and were 
completely unhurt ( well, my *ego* was somewhat deflated by smashing my
almost new car ...). Had we not been belted, I would have been launched 
through the windshield and my passenger would have collided with the 
pole, headfirst.

I ALWAYS buckle up.
From: erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: CHP Hot-spot
Date: 4 Jan 93 20:57:23 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Bleeding Edge Technologies - 'Sliding Down The Razor Blade Of Life...'

In article <1993Jan4.172015.9910@netcom.com> suleman@netcom.com (Dani Suleman) writes:

>Hey ! I think we should compile somekinda list of those "CHP hot-spots" in 
>the bay area. I got a ticket for that tinted windows about a month ago
>driving down 880 South around the Automall area, there's this CHP who is 
>always there on weekends around 8-9am, since I got that ticket on 
>Saturday...I started noticing that she's always around that area in the
>morning on weekends giving tickets !! So those of you who are driving down
>880 South on weekend morning...BEWARE when you are reaching the Fremont
>area ! :) 

Boy, am *I* glad I'm a late sleeper!  :)
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                    erc@apple.com                   801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: ca.driving
From: mandel@dms.agames.com (Glenn Mandelkern)
Subject: Re: Fastest way from Campbell to LA ?
Organization: Atari Games Corp.
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:24:24 GMT

In article <184832@pyramid.pyramid.com> lstowell@pyrnova.pyramid.com.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.042504.11355@dms.agames.com> mandel@dms.agames.com (Glenn Mandelkern) writes:
>>
>>You may want to try 101 to 46 to 5 which consists of mostly flat lands.
>>Since coming to California three years ago, I have heard different
>>reasons to avoid 152, from CHP common stakeouts to flipped-over buses
>>and impatient drivers.  
>>
>   
>   Where do you pick up 46?   152 has been improved a bit, but every
>   time I've been on it, it has been more crowded than 5!

State Road 46 is found at Paso Robles, the next city 50 miles south of 
King City.  Paso Robles is also 30 miles north of San Luis Obispo.

I heard on last night's news that during yesterday's heavy rains
3 trucks had an accident on 152 in the same spot that the Greyhound 
bus flipped over during last week's heavy rains.  It was at the ascending 
part of the Pacheco Pass.  If you want to call me a '152 Chicken', go ahead!

Newsgroups: ca.driving