HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:53:29 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <1992Sep10.043751.16593@uwm.edu> pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:
>
>I'd also like to point out the religious roots of the problem.  Christianity
>is an offshoot of Judism.  The Jews have a clearly defined ceremony for
                   ^^^^^^
			  Judaism 
>marking the rite of passage from boy to man, and have had so for centuries.
>
>Where is the similar ceremony in Christian religion/culture?  Somewhere along
>the way, it was deleted for whatever reasons.  

Catholicism has Confirmation, but trust me, it's NOTHING to get worked
up about.  Typically catholic, it's mass-produced, boring, and way too
long.

The other sacraments are, in typical order: Baptism, First Confession,
First Communion, Comfirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Last Rites.
Comfirmation is where you are "comfirmed" as a believer; I went though
it for the express purpose of taking my grandmother's name into mine in 
some "certified" way; do I *look* like a believer to you?   

>Bring back that ceremony or creating a new one would go a long way toward
>helping solve many of our problems.

Don't say that unless you WANT to have your foreskin removed at puberty;
this was central to bar mitzvah until recent history.  

A problem with a lot of male rites of passage in various cultures IMHO
is that they all have to do with bearing pain stoically, and men still
relate to one another like that; you've all heard the bar banter where a
bunch of guys trade insults and try to act like they aren't fazed.
You've all heard the "Boys don't cry" bullshit we feed our little boys.
I think men could use a rite of some sort that doesn't use pain as a
means to prove oneself. 

Blessings,
Janis  



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: kditto@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto)
Subject: Mysterious Ways
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 04:09:03 GMT


I just wanted to add something to a REALLY old thread...

Does anyone remember when there was a minor discussion about the seeming
"pagan" feel to U2's song "Mysterious Ways"?  I know this was a long time
ago, and I think my access was cut before it was ended......

Anyway, I saw the ZooTV tour last night, and I don't care what anyone else
says, or whether or not it was intentional, but "mysterious Ways" live
definitely sounds pagan.  Honest - and it's performed with a belly dancer!

Anyway - hope noone is offended by this (just read some alt.magick, and
being a little cautious as a result :)).  BTW - the concert was GREAT! 
See it if you get a chance! :)

Bright Blessings!
--Athena
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: an herb question and a suggestion for a new newsgroup
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:06:28 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 0e15c4d3787d74e5bc21c7361439d2e7

In article <X7sHqB3w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>> quoting Alisa N.T. Murphy. (Net Goddess II?)
>> also, when i was thinking of writing this, it occurred to me that there is no
>> newsgroup specifically for the discussion of herbalism and herbal medicine.
>> (if tehre is, and i missed it, please correct me.)  discusswions on it go on
>> here at times, and in rec.food.veg, and even in misc.kids, but i think the be
>> thing would be for the subject to have its own newsgroup.  how does one go
>> about proposing a new newsgroup?  i was thinking of making it alt.herbalism,
>> but better names are always welcome...   i prefer to stick with alt.* tho...
>
>This lack is why I started a local newsgroup mn.herbalism which I share with
>half a dozen other boards in the area. If alt.herbalism got started I would 
>kill mn.herbalism and move my users over to the new one. You are welcome to 
>write up the CFV! :)

Gee, I get to be net.guru again! :-)
I will post the recommended notices to alt.config, alt.pagan,
rec.food.veg, rec.gardens and news.groups and see what comes up.
If there are no objections, it will be in place by Thursday.

				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 21:09:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.011651.29213@csus.edu>, altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu 
(Murray Altheim) writes:
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Murray the Undoctored.
> 
> -- 
> Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
> Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
> CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
> altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."


  HA !! Finally, I've got Murray's address ... heh, heh, heh ...

  Now I can sail off that letter and maybe stop being such a loose
cannon on the net.

  Maybe ...

  Ciaran.

  $uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
  "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
   cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy."  -- Sappho >>
From: liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: ?New? store in Houston: Celtic Dreams
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:17:08 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

> 
> I discovered a new (to me) store here in Houston.  It is called
> Celtic Dreams.  It is in a strip mall on 290 at Mangum (where
> Future Visions Books is located).  The store was closed when I
> was in the area, but it looked from the window to be a 
> "New Age" store.
> 
> Has anybody been there or know anything about it?
> 
> Tammy

        Well I know about as much about it as you do... I've been there a 
few times and the people seemed friendly enough. (the selection was kinda 
skimpy though)
                        Blessed Be,
                                 Liam

------------------
liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
(Alternate) liam%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: On Power
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:13:48 GMT

In article <79444@ut-emx.uucp> 
evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura) writes:
>                             On Power
>         Since when did the pagans transcend the human race? 
>                      All people seek power.
>If one had a job and was offered either $4/hr or $100/hr for that job,
>which choice would be made?  The power to consume. 
>Money speaks, people listen.   Money = Power. 

Hmm, seems kind of um, dogmatic? But I do have the book for you, it's
called The Prince by Machiavelli, Mentor PB. Someone with your attitude
needs this book. Intro: "For over 400 hundred years, The Prince has been
the basic handbook of politics, statesmanship, and POWER. Written by a
Florentine nobleman whose name has become a synonym for crafty plotting,
it is a fascinating political and social document, as pertinent today as
when it first appeared. Machiavelli wanted to set down for all time the
rules and moves in the ageless game of politics, and, as the most
successful statesman of his day, he devised this highly readable formula
for the man who seeks POWER. There was little modern democracy in 16th
century Italy, and as a result, his work became thought of as a
blueprint for dictators - instead of a guide for efficient democratic
government. Witty, informative and devilishly shrewd, The Prince has
long been required reading for everyone interested in politics and
power. The Prince is one of the significant books of all time."

So if you want POWER, there is THE recipe. If you are interested in what
and how our government is doing to you and how you are being manipulated
by our supposed democracy, the best government that money can buy, this
book will tell you all. There is the power, but you must remember that
it is your obligation to do the right thing.
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: mostly pagan fiction
Date: 12 Sep 92 18:58:35 GMT


The following book list from Kveldulf Gundarsson may be of benefit
to those with the Germanic interests.   ---Thorfinn
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
   Poul Anderson's translation of Hrolf Kraki's saga is quite a nice piece of
work - I wouldn't quote it in a paper or anything, but I think he's preserved
the flavour (akavit and pickled herring) quite well and stayed true to the
original. *The Broken Sword* is a fun book, a few hairs over into swords'n'
sorcery, but likewise has that real Nordic flavour (see above). Do pick it up
if you get the chance. The other one of his that comes to mind is *The Merman's
Children* (I think that's the title), based on the mediaeval Danish ballad,
"Agnete og Havmand". It's really very good, although maintains, quite
appropriately for the period and style I add lest anyone think I'm criticizing
the author, mediaeval attitudes concerning the possession of souls, the power
of christian ritual, u.s.w. This and the mournful "ah, the world of Faerie is
passing" tone grated on me just a little, but that's a personal thing.
    Other favourites: Bernard King's trilogy Starkadder/Vargr
Moon/Death-Blinder. Out of print, but look for it at your local library. King
is actually rumoured to be involved with some heathen groups over here. I'm
sure you know Diana Paxson's Brisingamen, probably the best work of heathen
fiction currently available. There's a strange work out there called *The
Ice-Shirt*, I forget the author but a title search should turn it up. About the
Vinland expedition, extremely worthwhile. F. Bengtsson's *The Long-Ships* is a
work by an authentic Swede about a fine big hairy Viking, extremely
historically accurate and fun to read (though unfortunately the hero converts
halfway through). Asa Drake's Hel books are totally unhistorical fantasy, but
his attitude is right on target; well worth the effort. Brian Bates' The Way of
Wyrd, aside from the fact that the last half is a thinly Saxonized ripoff of
Carlos Castaneda, has some worthwhile bits in it as well.
    The Chisholm half of Chisholm & Gundarsson is currently available. The
Gundarsson half hopes like Hel to be done by Yule (though sample
chapters/outline of the whole work are currently seeking a home for it at
Samuel Weiser). T+Ho/rfinn should be able to tell you more about Jim's
translation.
                              Wassail!
                             Kveldu/lfR


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 01:47:31 GMT

pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes in
article: <fSqXiNV@quack.sac.ca.us>

>In article <92254.21435.J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
>J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>>The NAS is a word for word translation
>>from the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.  They use the manuscripts closest
>>to the autographed (original) manuscripts.  It only comes in a new and

>Autographed originals? Interesting concept, by whom? I'm afraid in the

Webster: <Gk. autographos: autos,self+graphein, to write>  1. <deleted>
2. A manuscript in the author's own handwriting.

>world of ancient manuscripts there is no such thing as you have
>mentioned. There is a process called redacting (a type of editing) in
>which scholars piece together fragments and decide as to which goes
>where and which is the work of later writers and so on, it's all rather
>complex. Remember that religious manuscripts represent putting into
>writing a body of work that has been transmitted by oral form, in a
>sense, freezing the oral traditions, but not for long. In our modern
>world we make exact copies, but this is extremely rare in the old.

Not to get into a theological/archeological debate but it is opined by
Bible scholars that Paul (Saul) penned several of the books of the Bible.
I suspect Phillipians, Galations, Ephesians, and a couple of others were
letters Paul wrote while awaiting execution in prison.

>And word for word probably doesn't mean what most think. You
>can't translate with a dictionary. To translate, one must first
>understand the text in the context of the use of the language at that
>time and then render that meaning into the second modern language.

You are absolutely correct.  For example (and this is used as a comparison
between two translations, not to proslytise):

New American Standard (word placement translation):

Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother
and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes even his own life, he can-
not be My disciple.

New International Version (thought translation):

Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to Me, and does not by comparison of his love for
Me hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sis-
ters, yes even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

That's why I recommended the NAS New Open Bible by Thomas Nelson Publishers.
It clarifies (or if you please, interprets) the verse.  The NAS Bible is
translated from manuscripts dating closer to the autographed manuscripts than
the King James.

To Amanda: No, I'm not a Protestant Evangelist but a non-denominational
apologist.

Thanks for the challenges, it get's the gray matter going.


Good wishes to all,
Chris Colvin
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:37:41 GMT

[If this is double-posted, it is not intentional. ---Thorfinn]

From *The Encyclopedia of Religion* edited by Mircea Eliade
Book 3, Page 162.
                        ,               ,
"At Tara stood the Lia Fail ("stone of Fal"), the "stone penis" which
cried out when it came in contact with the man destined to be king."

Could this be the Celtic origin of the Sword in the Stone myth?

There is a Germanic version from the Old Norse *Saga of the Volsungs* 
(Jesse Byock translation, chapter 3) except that the myth becomes
the Sword in the Tree:

<<<Begin Quote>>>
"It is now told that when people were sitting by the fires in the
evening a man came into the hall. He was not known to the men by
sight. He was dressed in this way: he wore a mottled cape that was
hooded; he was barefoot and had linen breeches tied around his legs.
As he walked up to Barnstock he held a sword in his hand while over
his head was a low-hanging hood. He was very tall and gray with age,
and he had only one eye. [Quess Who!] He brandished the sword and thrust
it into the trunk so that it sank up to the hilt. Words of welcome
failed everyone. Then the man began to speak: "He who draws this sword
out of the trunk shall receive it from me as a gift, and he himself
shall prove that he has never carried a better sword than this one."

Then this old man walked out of the hall, and nobody knew who he was
or where he was going. They stood up now, and no one disputed whether
or not to grasp the sword; each thought the one who reached it first
would be best off. The noblest men went up to it first, and then each
of the others. No one who came forward succeeded in moving it, no
matter which way he tried. Now Sigmund [Sigurdhr's father], the son of
King Volsung, came forward. He grasped the sword, and drew it from the
trunk. It was as if the sword lay loose for him."
<<<End Quote>>>
                            ,
This is the same sword that Odhinn later breaks in a battle signaling 
the death of Sigmund. The shards of the sword were kept and Sigmund's
son, Sigurdhr, reforged the sword which he later used in the slaying
of the Dragon Fafnir. It should be noted that Tolkien used this myth
in his mythological world, albeit with changes.

Be Sprinkled With Blood,
Thorfinn Einarsson

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process 
 he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, 
 the abyss looks into you."  --- Nietzsche
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:05:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.171730.21071@csus.edu> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
}In article <1992Sep10.154615.27996@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}>In article <8SEP199221092286@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
}>}>Paul a deciple of Christ said
}>}
}>}Sorry Chris, I have to go against you on this one.  Paul may have
}>}called himself a disciple of Christ, but he never even met Christ
}>}much less studied under him.
}>
}>Good try.  The claim is that Saul met him on the road to the D place.
}
}I suggest reading your bible. He did not meet Christ in the flesh, but
}through an vision.

I suggest reading your own post.  You did not say "in the flesh".  
I suggest reading my post.  I did NOT say that he met him. I said that the
CLAIM is that____.  And _I_ KNOW that the claim is made because it was made 
TO ME.  

Arrogance, when coupled to ignorance, is a fearsome thing.
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hazel Eyes
Date: 9 Sep 92 05:14:35 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin


Has anyone else heard anything relating to the amount of gold/white in
people's irises?  I've been told that studies have been done in which
the subjects exhibiting the strongest psychic abilities had gold or
white marks in their irises (or in some cases, pure amber eyes).

I'd like to know if anyone else has heard of this even if I didn't
have white-gold streaks in my irises... :)

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:06:53 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Donal wrote:

> My original design for my arms, I will not bore you with the blazon ...
> centered around a rack of stags horns and a 'plate', or full moon. It was
> refused for being to blatantly 'Pagan'. I do not think I need make any
> more comment than that. 

This account highlights an unfortunate problem, and an important point.
The SCA's policy on religion has always been widely misunderstood, and the
College of Arms' policy in particular.  There is nothing about the design
you describe that has EVER been forbidden by the Rules for Submissions.
Unless there was something else which you didn't mention, the herald who
returned it was simply wrong.  That's the problem: Rules are enforced at
many levels, and most of the people who enforce them will probably not
understand them very well.  We can limit that problem by writing our rules
very carefully, by avoiding rules that we don't really need, and by
educating our officers more effectively.  But, no matter how hard we work
at it, there will always be misunderstanding and misinterpretations.  

As an aside, I would like to point out that this problem is by no means
unique to pagans in the SCA: Over my heraldic career, I have heard _at_
_least_ as many complaints from Christians who bitterly argue that the
College of Arms persecutes Christians and favors pagans by restricting the
use of Christian symbolism and allowing pagan symbolism.  

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: On Power
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:49:23 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


	Thinking on this thread I have a couple of observations


	Some people seek power without realising that it may
limit your freedom. Like money, once you have it, you need to
look after it. This can domonate your life if you careless.

	Some avoid power in order to preserve their freedom.

	Some, like me, want power as a way to preserve their
freedom.

	And some seek power as a way of countering their own
inner sickness. I place 95% of all professional politicians,
regardless of race or gender, in this category. The other 5%
almost never get power. Plato pointed out that those who seek
political power are those who should never be trusted with it.
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8879 alt.mythology:1767
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology
Subject: Irish God Daghdha Also a War God! (was: Celtic)
Date: 7 Sep 92 04:14:46 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan


                          Daghdha

From *The Encyclopedia of Religion* edited by Mircea Eliade
Book 4, Page 196.

An Irish deity associated with war and druidry has four names or
surnames in Irish mythology: Daghdha ("good god"), Eochaid
(*ivo-katu-s, "who does combat with yew", an allusion to the magical
and warlike uses of this wood), Ollathir ("powerful father"), and the
Ruadh Rofhess ("the red one of great knowledge"). He corresponds to
the Gaulish Jupiter as defined by Caesar in the *Gallic Wars* (6:17):
"Louem imperium caelestium tenere" ("Jupiter rules the empire of the
heavens"). He forms a couple with Oghma (Gaulish Ogmios), who is the
"champion" and the "binding" god, to make an equivalence to an archaic
sovereign divinity, the dual Mitra-Varuna of the RgVeda.

Daghdha is the druid god, the god of contracts, of friendship, of all
that is intelligible, regulated, and ordered. He is the lord of the
climate and of chronological time, of the elements (air, water, land,
and fire); a wise god and a warrior god, he is also one of the lords
of the underworld.

...

In another tale the "Battle of Magh Tuiredh", he has 3 or 4
disagreeable mishaps, but it is he who, along with Lugh and Oghma,
organize the victorious war of the Tuatha De Danann against the
Fomhoire. But in this war he does not do battle: he is happy to couple
with his wife, Morrighan ("great queen"), the goddess of war.

The Irish scribes, transcribing their mythology much later, made of
him a King of Ireland, most often by the name of Eochaidh. The texts
portray him as a formidable druid, who is also a warrior. His
principle attributes are the cauldron of plenty and of resurrection;
the club that kills with one blow (in this world) and revives with
another (in the otherworld); and the harp that contains all tunes.


Thorfinn Einarsson

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process 
 he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, 
 the abyss looks into you."  --- Nietzsche
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=