HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians?
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:35:04 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Oct15.215104.4840@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
 ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
[...]
>         Mormon theology teaches that those who are married in the temple
> can eventually become Gods and rule over their own creations. Apostle
> Bruce R. McConkie affirmed that the righteous who are married in the
> temple "for time and eternity" have "gained eternal life (exaltation),
> the greatest of all the gifts of God... Those so inheriting are the sons
> and daughters of God... They are joint-heirs with Christ... becoming
> gods in their own right.'- (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pp. 117-18) 

Congratulations, Mark.  You got most of it right.  Why did you
quote from _Mormon Doctrine_ instead of LDS Canon though.

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therfore
shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they
continue;  then shall they be above all, because all things are
subject unto them.  Then shall they be gods, because they have
all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:22.)

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall
have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of
God." (D&C 14:7)

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only
true God, and Jesus Christ, who thou hast sent" (John 17:3.
Compare D&C 132:24).

"... we are the children of God:
"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with
Chirst ..." (Romans 8:16-17)

"And he [God] makes them equal in power, and in might, and in
dominion."  (D&C 76:95.)

The deification of Man is not a teaching unique to Mormonism or
even to Christianity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:35:31 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct14.220602.26039@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.174340.15126@newsgate.sps.mot.com> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
>>        As for me, I will stick to:
>>
>>  'I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside
>>   me.' Isa. 45:5.
>>  'before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.'
>>   Isa 43:10.
>>
>
> Now you'all notice this, these two verses don't come from s KJ version,
> or RvS, or even a Jerusalem Bible
>
> but this is the exact phrasing from a JW old testament.
>
> There may be other version that also match these verses but _I_ don't
> have them. If I rember correctly this doesn't even match the phrasing
> from either my Donay or Dutch Lutheran Bible.
>
>
>
>-- 
>         Kermit Tensmeyer                         | Intergraph Corporation
>Life is sometimes a bowl of Cherries; Watch out for the pits;
>   klt@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com                       | 


These are being quoted from the original Hebrew text manuscripts!  Not
from a JW bible.  Do you even have a New Worlk Translation that the JWs
use?  I don't think so.  This is accurate of the original Hebrew text
manuscripts.  This is what the writer wrote!
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Joseph a true latter-day prophet
Date: 15 Oct 92 01:14:09 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct14.105520.9398@cbnews.cb.att.com> wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes:
>
>Damned if you do, or damned if you don't :-).
>
>Then Mr Rose trys another tack, if you can't beat them, join 'um. Sure,
>Joseph Smith had the First Vision, but instead of God, it was the devil
>appearing as an angel of light. While Mr Fuller is talking history and
>of the problems of interpreting the evidence, Mr Rose wants to talk about
>things that cannot be verified historically, but must be left up to the
>spirituality of an individual.

Willard:

I mean this honestly, not antagonistic, okay?  Can you explain how you
*know* that it was God?  And the same about the burning in the bosom
testimony that every Mormon bears on me, how do you *know* that it was the
Holy Ghost that did this?  I don't question that it happens, I just
wonder how you guys know?  I mean, even the LDS church believes that God
is not the only supernatural power in the universe, so it seems to me that
you are taking a 50-50 chance on it's source.

I know it bothers you to think about this, and I am not trying to pin you
down and persecute you, but I think this is something that you should
think about, and if you have an answer, I'd like to know.

>And you probably won't (at the rate you're going) until you can go to Radio
>Shack and buy a Holy Ghost Detector. :-)
>
>
>              Willard C. Smith

Oh, man, this would settle the problem!  Can you give me the part
number?   ;-)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:38:47 GMT

In article <4fEy02sb26d=01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>
>
>
>These are being quoted from the original Hebrew text manuscripts!  Not
>from a JW bible.  Do you even have a New Worlk Translation that the JWs
>use?  I don't think so.  This is accurate of the original Hebrew text
>manuscripts.  This is what the writer wrote!


 Slow down, you are frothing again. SpinMeister..


 I asked Mark,  (and I guess you two are such tight buddies, I guess
 you can answer for him)

 Do you really believe that Mark translates on demand? Or is it more
 likly that he has a translation that he uses to simpify his on-line
 transcription time.  Just remember, the content of the quote is
 not in question, just the translation...

 Well on the other hand, He _does_ have a large on-line database
 to mesmerize us with his volume.

 Please don't misunderstand, Mark and Tony are welcome to post any
 scripture that they want. 

 On the other hand, the quote did match the NWT, but not the digalog,
 KJ, RSV, NST or any of the other translation that I could find.

 I guess, there could be another translation which would match
 this version of the quote. remember that the quote idenfies 
  "Lord" as ("Eliohim").

 Most of the translation sorta of ignore that clairification.

 Which translations make that explict?

 (That _was_ the point of the quote wasn't it?)


-- 
         Kermit Tensmeyer                         | Intergraph Corporation
Life is sometimes a bowl of Cherries; Watch out for the pits;
   klt@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com                       |
From: IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: QUESTION
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:02:18 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

Hi, I'm new to this newsgroup.
I'm currently a member of the LDS church but I'm not
sure that I believe alot of the doctrine.  Some of it
seems way far out.

What I want to know is, if Mormonism is a false religion, and
Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then:

1) Why is Mormonism one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
2) Why are 99.9% of Mormons successful/prosperous?
   (Look at Utah....only 2% unemployment or something like that!)
3) Why does reading the Book of Mormon bring you good luck (or does it)?

If someone could please answer these questions, I would be VERY
appreciative, as I am very confused.  Alot of things aren't
making sense to me.

Thanks in advance.....................Andie.
From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 11 Oct 92 16:18:37 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In article <1992Oct6.235834.15696@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>
press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
 
>
>In article <1992Oct6.114200.13090@phillip.edu.au>, lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
>>
>[beliefs deleted]
>>   My guess is that those Mormons you know who believe _all_ of these things are
>> believing different meanings to commonly held expressions. See the rest of my
>> original post regarding definitions. Do these Mormons believe in grace only or
>> grace AND works???
>
>I have no intention of becoming embroiled in yet another round of
>LDS doublethink posing as a good argument for another Jesus, but I
>would like to re-emphasize this position of Grace only with works
>resulting from that Grace.
>The doctrine of Grace+plus Works leaves a believer in a state of
>constant guilt. They never know if they have done enough! This leaves
>them in the uneviable position to be exploited by any fast-talking yokel
>with a pseudo channel to God to lay more guilt on such a believer that
>they haven't done enough. It's a vicious circle folks. Don't get
>caught in that trap. Our Lord came to free us from the bondage of
>guilt and slavery to fast talking yokels who prrey on the sincere of
>heart.
 
Being a pagan-heathen infidel, let me say a few things!
 
  1.  Are there other Christian religions which believe in  faith AND works?
      I know of at least two others besides the Mormons.  Where is the mud
      slinging against them?  ( Its obvious to me you don't live your religion,
      or your actions would be different--SHOWE ME YOUR FAITH BY YOUR WORKS!!!!)
 
  2.  Look closely at your scriptures; you will find that both faith
      and works are required.  James is the champion of works, Paul the
      champion of faith.  It rather obvious by you line of reasoning, that
      if it only took faith, James' writing wouldn't be in the Bible; and
      likewise with Paul.  Since they are both there, both are required.
      (Hey this is the same kind of logic presented over and over again by
      Christians {as I have seen in the past two years on the net} to
      disinfranchise whole lines of thought, reason, and proofs).
 
  3.  Faith leads to works, if you don't do the works part, you faith is
      false, therefore your faith must be based up a FALSE JESUS.
 
  4.  If you do the works, there is a point in time that you will
      KNOW you have not only been accepted of God, but pleased Him--
      that point is having your calling and election made sure;
      which is championed by Peter.  (Or do you not understand Peter's
      plain and simple language?)  And if accepted by God, How much
      more you ought to act like God!
 
--A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land.
 
 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Jesus was a man, was Is it Christian values or chavinism?
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:18:19 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <71502@hydra.gatech.EDU>, you wrote:
> Let us look at John chapter 1, since it is the Scripture I reference
> and the part of the reasoning I used to say that Jesus is the noble
> man in the parable in Luke 19.  [It is a bit long, but worthwhile.]
> 
>     John 1 (NIV)   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
>     and the Word was God. {2} He was with God in the beginning. {3} Through 
> 
> [The Word was God and with God]

You know, why do you need to state all those [] clarifications? Are
there problems with the original text? And why doesn't the text
explicitly mention that Jesus is God?

> Who is the Word - the Christ - the Son of God?

Yes, who is the word? I agree. The problem with the Gospels is that
there are so many explanations you could create from the texts. No
wonder we have so many Christian sects.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:43:38 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <39509@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> robarr@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Robert O'Barr) writes:
>
>Tony Rose says:
>
>>Anyone who does not follow the right Jesus Christ is damned.
>
>Perhaps you would care to comment on how one knows for sure whether
>the "Christ" he follows is the true one or only an exceptionally
>good replica of the real "Christ"? 
>
>Robert


"Test ALL things"    ----->   1 THESS 5:21

Do as the Bereans did, weigh everything against what we know is God's
word, the Bible.  Since we know that God's word will not change (Mal 3:6)
and that he cannot lie, then we know that the "new" revelations should be
in accordance with the "old" revelations.  If they are not, then the new
ones are wrong, because God cannot lie, and has already given us his word.

The Bereans were considered "more noble"  because they searched the
Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true (Acts 17:11).  Did you
search the Scriptures daily to see if what Joseph said was true?  Or did
you just pray about it?

Is the job that your Jesus did on the cross sufficeint for the completion
of the job, or did it just cover Adam's transgresions, and the rest is up
to you?

The job my Jesus did was complete.  "It is finished".  There is nothing
else I can do.

There is a difference.

Is what your Jesus did on the cross suffecient for ALL sins?  Or are some
sins (murder, adultry) too large for his blood to cover?

My Jesus' blood can cover ALL sin!
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date: 10 OCT 92 21:58:14    

In article <69Ck02pp25oP01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes...
>In article <1992Oct7.164938.27930@macc.wisc.edu> bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes:

>>take offense at this.  LDS sensitivities are aroused when multiple 
>>Christian groups begin denying them the title, however the LDS need to realize
>>these groups deny each other the title too.  The LDS should learn to shrug
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Can you name a few?

Oh come now.  Are you implying that various Christian sects do not take 
issue with other Christian sects?  I haven't exactly kept records on this 
type of activity but I've heard various sects blast others for false 
teachings all of my life.

Some examples...

The Baptist church I attended as a youth considered both the Church of Christ
and Catholic churches in my town as false.  They routinely labeled their
beliefs as unchristian.

I've attended meetings of the Christian Missionary Alliance church which
focused on exposing the falsehoods of several religions, indeed they held
a regular series which were repeated every year or so.

I've seen John Anken(r?)berg conduct televised programs against the Catholics,
Lutherans, Jehovah's Witness, LDS, and many others.

The Evangelical definition of basic Christian beliefs posted here a week or
so ago would have excluded several major Christian religions.

An AP story this week told of the problems the Russian Orthodox priests are
having with American "Christian" ministries now attempting to swoop into
the ex-USSR nations and convert them to "modern Christianity."  

I went into a "Christian" Bookstore three weeks ago and found an entire
rack of publications whose purpose was to attack the beliefs of a variety
of religions.

Finding Christian churches ready, willing, and anxious to tear down the 
beliefs of other churchs professing a belief in Christ is an easy assignment.

Dana
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:27:59 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct10.170921.59590@cc.usu.edu> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>In article <1992Oct10.031759.27535@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>,
> press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
>[...]
>> Do you recall my posting what your prophets taught? It matters
>> little to me what you believe. The important part is what the
>> prophets(LDS) taught. 
>
>So, it doesn't matter how actual Mormons interprete and
>*implement* the words of their leaders.  What matters is how
>non-Mormons interprete these same words.  Thus the non-Mormon
>interpretation is the *only* correct way to understand Mormonism.
>And the beliefs of actual Mormons are meaningless, irrelevant,
>and non-representative.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu


No Jason, what matters is what the writers meant when they wrote it down.
THAT is the only way to "interprete" it and it be correct!
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:07:13 GMT

In article <ldlqq0INNibp@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM (Frank Farkas) writes:
> 
> 
> I responded to Barry's statement that, "It matters little to me what you believe".
> The assumptions were that he understood correctly what the "prophets(LDS) taught"

And missed all the rest of it. What you believe is important to You
only. What your president and coucil, quorum, etc. believe is what
is important because they are the ones the dispute concerns. They are
the ones who claim to be prophets, seers, revelators. I doubt you
personally make that claim. If you did, then the issue would be with
you.
> 
> I take issue with Barry, an anti-Mormon, who interprets "correctly" what
> the prophets(LDS) said, and we who's faith he is plastering with mud, don't
> know beans. We are all too stupied and ignorent to understand our faith.

You forgot blind..

> I would never be so presumptuous to tell a Jew, a Baptist, a Muslim,
> a Catholic, or any one else what they believe in, and try to instruct them
> about their faith. The only thing I can do to tell them about mine.

You don't need to. Your prophets do a good enough job for you. All you
need to do is support them and apologize for them.
I could never be so presumptuous to pretend to be a prophet, then
proceed to pronounce false prophecies in the name of the Lord.
That caused quite a stir among Joseph's faithful when he prophecied
in the name of the Lord to take the BoM to Canada where a buyer would
be found. 
Just one example.
> 
> I hope you get what I am saying.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I place more importance on what your
prophets teach and have taught in the past. Nothing against you
personally.

barry--
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Flat earth?
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:10:20 GMT

Can anyone point to Biblical verses that prove that the earth is flat?  I've
heard some, but I've found that they make a mockery of God and the Bible.  Case
in point: In Isaiah we are told that the earth is a flat disk, but other
references say that the earth has four corners.
--Ray Cote
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:18:16 GMT
	<1992Oct12.204909.23793@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Organization: finally got a chance to leave the CPT, off to other places and sh*t, no longer just a underground hit ...

In article <1992Oct12.204909.23793@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> 
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <1bcjqmINNhch@cascade.ens.tek.com> 
davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>>  From my perspective, God can be compared to a Master Gardner. And
>>all Master Gardners know that the best way to prevent weeds is to
>>plant more flowers. In my opinion, Christ can be likened to a Master
>>Gardner. Christ did not go around pulling weeds. He operated by means
>>of a planter of flowers. He went amoung the sinners and planted flowers
>>by helped them.
>If Jesus is a master gardener of this kind, he's an incompetent one.  To
>properly run a garden, of _course_ you have to pull weeds.

French Intensive Gardening, the way of no weed pulling required. See 
rec.gardens for details. Or ask Mother Theresa or Ghandi or MLK. What the
fab4 said is correct, all you need is love. Hatred begets HATE, only love
begets love. There is nothing you can do that can't be done, there's no
where you can be that isn't where you're meant to be in time, it's easy, all
you need is love. Jesus preached love, with the exception of Luke14:26, but
why is it that so many self-proclaimed Christians preach HATE? HATE the sin
but love the sinner? That just allows you to harm people in the name of HATE-
ing a concept. HATE is the way of dark, love is all you need. Love your
enemies, love the things you think you HATE the most. Be an example. 
LOVE not HATE. The OCA Initiative is nothing but pure Luke14:26 HATRED,
nothing but the famous Christian Devil as only the self-proclaimed Christians
would know how to invoke. If you are a Christian, then it is your beliefs that
have invoked the Christian Devil. It is you who must control this extreme
symbol of evil. How? LOVE. TRUE CHRISTIAN LOVE. That's the only way.
Legislating HATRED is the tool of the Christian Devil. Recognize that or be
lost. You can not wash the blood of HATE from your hands.

>I believe that given the context, this means I have just demonstrated that,
>_from your own premises_, churches must be attacked.

No, you have demonstrated that you do not know of the way of non-violence.

>That is a problem with excessive proof-by-analogy: if your analogy is wrong,
>you suddenly end up with an airtight proof of the wrong thing....

That is the problem with thinking you know all.

>"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
>the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
>disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Umm, about this bogosity thang ...
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:15:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.075445.13122@phillip.edu.au> lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:
>their logic) and not really relevant to the virgin birth of Christ. Any
>orthodox Christian teaching says that Jesus needed to be born of a virgin to
>remain sinless (i.e. free from original sin). You may argue all you like about
>the validity of this, but the whole point of this (original) post is to show
>that Mormons are not Christian and do not follow the basic tenets of
>Christianity. This is just another example 
You wouldn't be using believing that Jesus was born of a virgin as
part of "orthodox" by any chance would you?

-Ekr

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
   "Base 8 is just like base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Bring On the Cases....
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:11:55 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <71237@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>I don't think a homosexual should be representing a group that 
>sees homosexuality as wrong (e.g., boy scouts) - a group that 
>teaches ethics to youth.

I should hope that no self-respecting homosexual would touch the Boy
Scouts with a bargepole.  I just shudder at the thought of a group
that sees homosexuality as wrong teaching ethics to youths.
--
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "SET ME ON FIRE!" - Big Black  \/