HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tcryal@iastate.edu (Ford Prefect)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:18:44 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <Nov.18.01.23.05.1992.6880@klinzhai.rutgers.edu> msh9848@hertz.njit.edu (-Unknown-) writes:

>This is a challenge to Xtians out here. Convince me to believe in Xtianity 
>without quoting the bible. If you prefer , do it by email. 
  Look around yourself for a minute.  Go outside and look at the beauty
and grace existant in the world around you.  Can you honestly believe that
all this actually just happened by itself?  To me, all creation speaks of the
existance of God.  All of this is just too complex and perfect to have just
spontaneously happened. 
  As for Christianity, the only source of information that we have that is
truly valid happens to be the Bible.  There is also much secular history of
the man called Jesus Christ.  Most religions, at least those with historical
beginnings in the Middle East, teach that Jesus of Nazareth existed.  The
crux of Christianity then is that we believe He is the Son of God and died on
a cross to pay for our sins.  I can not convince you of anything by just
writing some words for you to read.  I pray that God will bring some genuine,
loving Christians into your life and that you will open your heart to what
they will show you through their lives.  Then I believe that you will be
convinced.  The Holy Spirit is the only one with the power to truly convince
you of the reality of Christianity.
>I do not believe that "god" gave man the bible nor do I believe in
>god, heaven or hell. Also I can not be convinced using hell fire and
>brimstone fear tactics.
Perhaps one day soon you will.  As for the fire and brimstone stuff, I
wouldn't dream of it. 

>Matt Harelick
> 
[Comments from our intrepid moderator munched.]

Tod Ryal
-- 
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| tcryal@vincent1.iastate.edu *or* tnd11@isuvax.iastate.edu                 | 
| This .sig under construction.  (Stupid and tacky, I know, so sue me.)     |
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From: wiggins@lightning.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There is no god
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:53:56 GMT
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA

In article <Nov.19.01.45.22.1992.752@geneva.rutgers.edu> alvin@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Kenneth Alvin) writes:

   In article <Nov.18.01.23.05.1992.6880@klinzhai.rutgers.edu> msh9848@hertz.njit.edu (-Unknown-) writes:
   >This is a challenge to Xtians out here. Convince me to believe in Xtianity 
   >without quoting the bible. If you prefer , do it by email. 

   >I do not believe that "god" gave man the bible nor do I believe in
   >god, heaven or hell. Also I can not be convinced using hell fire and
   >brimstone fear tactics.
   >
   >Matt Harelick

   My response is more of a comment rather than an argument for or against.
-------
Yep.  Along the same lines, I also have $.02; just an observation.

I'm getting ready to quote the Bible, but NOT to prove it by this, so bear
with me.  The Bible itself says,
"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our
eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life--
and the life was manifested and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to
you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have
fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship  is with the Father, and with 
His Son Jesus Christ."  (1 John 1:1-3)

So, these guys claim to have witnessed and dealt with actual events.  From
what I gather reading the Bible, one is supposed to be able to look at the
actual events that happened, and these should support what the Bible claims.

So, if I were looking to prove or disprove the Bible, I would look to see if
it were historically accurate and true.

To make things more confusing, though: there are Christians who don't 
believe the Bible literally did everything it claims; there are Christians who
claim it does; there are non-Christians who believe in the people of the
Bible and certain happenings, but that the "supernatural" can be explained
in the natural; and there are non-Christians who believe scarcely any of the
Bible, except for some city names.

I'm going to say the same as the previous guy.  Since there's someone out
there who will say anything you want, it's just a matter of faith in whom
you want to believe.
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is heaven really desirable?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:39:52 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Nov.15.21.47.56.1992.23713@geneva.rutgers.edu> dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:

   Assuming for the moment that we are lucky enough to go to heaven:
   What will we do there in all that time?  Let's say we start with all
   of our most favorite things: swimming, baseball, knitting, math,
   chatting, etc.  Now the problem is after a 1000, 10,000 etc. years
   will we still get any significant enjoyment out of the thousands of
   activities we have time for?  After all what's new or interesting
   in baseball after thousands of years.  Same for all the other activities.

The key to the hapiness of Heaven is the idea that we love a thing
insofar as it is good.  The things you mention here have some degree
of good in them (though valued differently by different peope, of
course), and that is what makes them enjoyable and valued.

The problem is, any created thing only has a certain amount of good to
it.  I mean, after all, how beautiful can a sunset be?  There's a
limit.  That's why the hapiness of Heaven does not consist in the
possession of any created thing.

THE ESSENTIAL HAPINESS OF HEAVEN IS THE POSSESSION OF GOD HIMSELF.  He
is the source of all good.  The good that we perceive in created
things is a little reflection of God's goodness.  The happiness of
Heaven is possessing an infinite good: God.  We will see God clearly
and see His beauty, and see His love for us -- to be loved by such a
being! -- and know that we will possess this forever, and that we can
never lose this infinite good.

Everything else will be merely secondary compared to this.
From: altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The pope and Galileo
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:17:55 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <Nov.15.21.54.29.1992.23803@geneva.rutgers.edu> jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette) writes:
>
>1.)  The poster seems to imply that heresy in the 2nd century of Irenaeus
>     time could result in the execution of the heretics.  My understanding
>     is that the early Church never resorted to violence to propogate
>     the faith, and that the first time heretics were ever executed was in
>     the late 4th century, a good 350 years after the time of Christ and 
>     the apostles.  Am I wrong?  I am not well versed in Church History.
>     Are there any good reference works that document the use of violence
>     and persecution of unbelievers by the early Christian Church?

Off the top of my head there is a book called "Gnosis" written in the '50s,
but we had a power failure on campus and the library computer is unavailable.
I think the author's name starts with an "H", if that's any help. It is a 
good source on how heretical movements such as gnosticism were handled in 
the early church, and I can get the full biblio info if you're interested.

I can recommend "Pagans and Christians" by Robin Lane Fox, as well as 
"The Life of Jesus" by Marcello Craveri, for what would be considered a
"dissenting" view of Roman Catholic Church history. Fox's book describes
how Constantine's Holy Roman Empire came to be, and a great deal about
life in those times. Craveri covers a huge amount of ground in Christology,
and offers not his own views so much as a compendium of recent scholarship
and dogma.

Remember that just as with Josephus, early historians avoided discussing
that which a) might displease their (generally powerful) audience, or
b) expose their own involvement in undesireable or "heretical" movements
or ideas. When reading early (and to some extent modern) history, one must
always keep in mind both the background and audience of the historian. This
approach has been in some cases negatively labeled a "revisionist" view,
but IMO it is only an attempt to come closer to the truth.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."

[Are you thinking of Elaine Pagels, "The Gnostic Gospels", 1979?  It
is largely a complaint about suppression of the Gnostics by growing
orthodoxy.  However I don't recall that it was physical persecution.
--clh]
From: paul@mr.med.ge.com (Chuck Paul 4-6544 MRCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Daily devotional guides
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:43:59 GMT

I suggest three alternatives to DAILY BREAD, a good, but basic
Christian devotional reading guide.  If you have other suggestions,
please reply and I will post a summary.

There are several daily devotional guides.  The following
addresses may be used to obtain monthly devotional guides.  I have
not enclosed the cost of receiving the guides, because I don't have
the info.  TODAY IN THE WORD is sent to those who make contributions
to Moody Bible Institute.  I think the others are also paid for by
donations.  Write to them to find out.

All three of these are more substantial than DAILY BREAD, in the
sense that they encourage the reader to a larger passage of text in
the Bible.  They also encourage the reader to more thinking about
personal application of the Bible text.

The TABLETALK guide goes the farthest in encouraging the development
of basic theological thinking.  TABLETALK is for the reader who seeks
a guide that has more analytical appeal without being too bookish.

TODAY
The Back to God Hour
6555 W. College Dr.
Palos Heights, IL 60463-9983

TODAY IN THE WORD
Moody Bible Institute
820 N. LaSalle Blvd.
Chicago, IL 60610-9805

TABLETALK
Ligonier Ministries
P.O. Box 547500
Orlando, FL 32854-7500
1-800-435-4343

Disclaimer - Above content is the author's personal opinion, and in no
	     way should it be construed to represent General Electric.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Paul        HAIL PURDUE !         | We take pride in our image!
{crdgw1.ge.com}!mr.med.ge.com!paulc     | GE Medical Systems, MR Center
or use: uwm.edu!mrsvr!chuck             | P.O. Box 414,  Mail code W-826
Work: (414) 521-6544                    | Milwaukee, WI  53201-0414
From: wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Micah Malachi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Denver Church of Christ
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:22:20 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Hi. I'm a deeply Christian University of Colorado student, and I'm 
concerned abot the recent growth of the cult known as the denver Church 
of Christ here, mainly because they have told several of my former friends
having indoctrinated them that they should not talk to me. There are three 
questions I have on them:

1) Does anyone have a complete history and theological summary of them?

2) Concerning my friends: how should I go about getting them out of this?

3) We need a comprehensive program to get them out of this dorm and hopefully
out of campus. Any advice on how to handle this?

I really appreciate any help I recieve. Thank you.


-- 
Dylan Wilbanks, Classics major, AND NOW Environmental Conservation!
Currently at:	 |"George Bush is Out of Time. Bill Clinton and Al Gore
Box 1143	 |are Automatic for the People."
Boulder, CO 80306|		-VP Elect Al Gore, 10-29-1992

[It's surprising.  Questions about the <cityname> Church of Christ are
one of the most common that I get.  I've got an FAQ, which I send, and
I'll send this person as well.  But the various <cityname> Church of
Christ seem to be somewhat different, and there's also some evidence
that they are changing, so it's worth having public discussion now and
then.  I consider trying to keep members from talking to other
Christians a real warning flag.  That does not seem to be invariably a
part of the <cityname> Church of Christ.  --clh]
From: gslade@nowhere.uucp (Greg Slade)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mature Christian Characteristics???
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:48:03 GMT
Organization: CyberstoreGodcorp

In article <Nov.10.02.09.56.1992.12485@geneva.rutgers.edu> U38098@uicvm.uic.edu (Man Sang Tam) writes:
>I am currently responsible for one of the fellowship meetings this month.
>The topic that we are going to discuss is Christian characteristics.  I
>have decided that Bible Study will be the best format for the fellowship's
>need now.  The problem is that I don't know which bible verses to use.
>If you have any thing in mind, please let me know.  You can also include
>some of the major characteristics that you think a mature Christian should
>have.  I will greatly appreciate your ideas on this topic, and if you
>want to know the result of the Bible Study, please let me know.  Thank You.

I think the best place to start is with the Spiritual gifts found in Gal. 5:22-23
(oops Galatians 5:22-23).  There is a good deal of discussion in many churches
of what makes a "mature" or "real" or "serious" or whatever Christian.  It seems
to me that:

a) fruit is what comes naturally and can't be faked, and
b) "you tell a tree by its fruit"

so the surest mark of somebody's spiritual walk is the kind of fruit they bear.
You could probably spend weeks just digging up scripture to show the need for,
and the way to cultivate, the Fruit of the SPirit.

* Pauli wasn't here....                     gslade@cyberstore.ca
From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:05:03 GMT
Organization: Dakota State University

In <Nov.15.22.26.29.1992.24029@geneva.rutgers.edu> 5gz8wakefiel@vmsf.csd.mu.edu writes:

>In article <Nov.13.02.17.43.1992.19268@geneva.rutgers.edu>, dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:
>>Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 


Another suggestion would be C.S.Lewis's magnificent sermon "The Weight of
Glory", available in a collection with the same title.
-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
From: hillig@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Hilli Gibson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Messiah Soon?
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:18:11 GMT
Organization: Genasys II, Sydney, Australia

In article <Nov.18.03.33.24.1992.787@athos.rutgers.edu> REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:
>In article <Nov.17.03.28.54.1992.26413@geneva.rutgers.edu>
>xxbrent@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov (Brent Anderson) writes:
>>Greetings!
>>I have some questions on the subject of the return of Christ:
>>Do most Christians believe that we are living in the "End Times"?
>
>I doubt if most feel it.  That of course signifies nothing!
>


I disagree with this, It said in the bible that The return of Christ
is like a thief at night time. Therefore, we will continue to live
in this faith. It is also encouraging us to be ready when He appears 
to us.

-- 
Hilli Gibson  |  Genasys II Pty Ltd
              |  13th Level, 33 Berry St, North Sydney, NSW, Australia
              |  Phone:    +61-2-954-0022 (-9930 FAX)
              |  Internet: hillig@g2syd.genasys.com.au
From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:23:26 GMT

Speaking as a prospective member of the choir celestial, I would like to
suggest that there would be plenty of time to sing all the music ever
written to God's praise, including repeats and newly commisioned works...
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."
From: belgarath@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: REFRESH
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:15:39 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

Hello, Can anyone tell me if it is against the Christian religion to
masterbate?  Please answer over the net and not directly to me, thanks.
                                          In His Name


[Almost all Christian groups teach that it's wrong.  These days I
don't think it's considered a reallyserious wrong.  But most
Christians consider that sexuality was intended by God for use in
marriage, and only there.  There's not a lot of explicit Biblical
evidence on masturbation.  The story of Onan (Gen 38) used to be
cited, but that's not really masturbation, and Onan's offense was
something else -- he was trying to avoid his responsibility as
brother-in-law.  --clh]
From: U94_DLAVDAS@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu (D E A N)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Anglican and Roman Catholic
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:22:01 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway


	I have a friend who told me that he knows a Roman Catholic priest
who was an Anglican priest and upon converting to Catholicism he automatically
became a RC priest.  I find that hard to believe, but then again I am neither
RC nor Anglican.  Can anybody explain if this is true or false?


_-------_____-----____---______
|     DEAN LAVDAS		|
|     Stevens Tech		|
|     Hoboken, NJ		|
|__---_____------_____--------___|

[I'm posting it because as a Protestant my answers can't really be
considered definitive.  But it's pretty clear that this is false.
The Roman Catholic Church does not accept Anglican orders as
valid.  So an Anglican priest would not be regarded as a Catholic
priest, without some further action (ordination, I'd assume).
--clh]
From: altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Liberal/New Age Religion (Was: Santeria and animal-sacrifice)
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:52:49 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <Nov.18.04.24.06.1992.2591@athos.rutgers.edu> ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) writes:
>
>Whether you like it or not, the following is a virtually undeniable
>FACT about this country's beginnings:
>the overwhelming evidence is that the concepts on top of
>which our Constitution and the Declaration of Independance
>rest are rooted in Biblical, Protestant, New Testament thought.
>This country's foundational charter was drafted and put into
>force by a group of almost exclusively WHITE CHRISTIAN PROTESTANT
>MALES! Oh my! 

Before dealing with the rest of your post, I think another look at this
prime assumption might be in order, especially after all the
capitalization.  :-)

First of all, our "founding fathers" were NOT all Christians, and of those 
who ostensibly were, many were members in good standing of the Freemasonic
order, which while carrying many Christian symbols, also holds hermetic
and other beliefs which you would probably label "occult". Witness that
the symbols of this country (check your dollar bill) are not Christian
symbols, but Freemasonic ones.

If you wish to base this country on the beliefs of our "founding fathers",
then I suggest you look into Freemasonry in addition to your Christian
beliefs. 

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."

[Somehow every time these issues come up we get into an argument about
the beliefs of the founding fathers.  I don't understand it.  As far
as I can tell from the evidence the folks who were involved in
creating the U.S. didn't agree on religion any more than the members
of political movements today do.  They range from Thomas Paine, who
was a convinced atheist, to various clergy, with deists and other
unconventional believers in the middle.  I really shudder at the
thought of yet another round where everyone tries to claim all
the founding fathers for their viewpoint.  --clh]
From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au (Derek Abbott)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jesus, not dogma
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:36:33 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

In article <Nov.17.02.59.20.1992.25966@geneva.rutgers.edu> tebert@utdallas.edu (Tim Ebert) writes:
>I must admit I am rather disappointed in this group.
>(Perhaps there is another group, but I don't think so..)
>
>I don't want to hear arguments/discussions about dogma:
>I want to hear about Jesus.  I want to hear people talk
>about how God has become REAL for them in their lives.

I've felt that at times too. I wonder if it would be a
good idea to create a soc.religion.christian.theology group
for intellectual stuff, and then keep this group for
experiential & spiritual stuff?

Anyone second the motion?

[I've always felt uncomfortable about the amount of doctrinal
discussion.  I believe some readers feel that the group is hard to use
for practical Christian issues because they'll get flamed by people
who disagree with them.  I'd be happy to see a group that does not
allow doctrinal arguments, but I can tell you from reading the
CHRISTIA listserv (which has that purpose) that it's very hard to draw
the lines in a way that (1) enough people will agree on to get the
group created and (2) that is sufficiently clear to make it possible
to moderate the group without large amounts of hassle from readers.
If there are people who are serious about this, I'd be happy to talk
with you about what guidelines might make sense.  You'd have to go
through the formal Usenet voting process to establish a new group.

Since people are almost certainly going to continue posting everything
to this group, I'd suggest that the best approach would be to have the
groups connected in such a way that the moderator of
soc.religion.christian could forward inappropriate postings to
soc.religion.christian.theology.  That's assuming you envisioned
continuing moderation here.  There's been a fair amount of experience
with things like comp.xxx.questions, where new users would post
questions, so comp.xxx would be free for serious matters, or
soc.religion.christian, so that talk.religion.misc would be free of
continuous discussions of Christianity.  That experience suggests that
the main group will have to be moderated, since people will continue
posting the things you don't want.  But as moderator, some may regard
my views on the usefulness of moderation as biased.

--clh]
From: phys224@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re:bored.....
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:24:51 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

if we lived in eternity, we would do everything,say everything,and think
everything infinitely many times.How could we not be bored? Lets face it,
whoever actually invented the idea of heaven forgot about that.
and if that eternity exists outside of time,then so do we;we would be an
oil painting for god's amusement.arent'nt we that already?
I mean,he's constantly sending us floods,fire,pain,pestilage etc thoughout
time;he must enjoy it,why else would he make us all suffer so much?


stephen botha