HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Taulbee Survey on CS Ph.D.'s
Date: 6 Oct 92 06:54:55 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

The stupid thing about the taulbee survey is that it takes nearly 2
years to produce (the 89-90 survey was published in Communications of
the ACM in jan of '92).  So the data is way out of date by the time it
is published.

Also, the author is rather pompous in his statements about job
opportunities in the most recent survey ("our computer science
graduates can no longer have their pick of teaching opportunities at
top-10 c.s. schools..  lessor schools must be considered....sheesh --
I refuse to believe the opportunities were this good, even at Cornell
in '88 or '87).

- Don
--
From: maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Underproduction of scientists and engineers
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:21:56 GMT

In article <26505@castle.ed.ac.uk>, loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
|> In article <92Oct1.203508edt.48029@neat.cs.toronto.edu> tlai@cs.toronto.edu (Tony Wen Hsun Lai) writes:
|> >In article <1992Oct1.221634.12032@news.iastate.edu> mds@iastate.edu (Mark D. Smucker) writes:
|> >>In the Iowa State Daily
|> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >>Tonight at ISU, Camilla P. Benbow will be giving a lecture titled,
|> >>"The Math/Science Pipeline: Can it Meet Tomorrow's Technological
|> >>Needs?''
|> >[stuff deleted]
|> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >>
|> >>Ok, from all I hear on this group, THERE IS NOT OVERPRODUCTION OF
|> >>SCIENTISTS!
|>

This sounds like talk from managers who want a cheap labor pool, and don't
want to pay for their resources.  In America when a manager screws up, usually
the subordinates are in jeopardy. In fact from the worker's side, the
employment market on the whole seems pretty darn poor (people are upset that
there are 100:1 or greater ratios of applicants to jobs in academia, but the
``real'' world has it just as bad from what I can tell). We need to adjust our
corporate culture such that reward is in proportion to achievement.
How to define achievment is a hard problem.

Bill

-- 
|
|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty
|
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: US academic job market improving?
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:26:39 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.

In article <Bvnowu.Mz5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> atkinson@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (David Atkinson) writes:
>>number in science and engineering?  How about the number of domestic
>>(U.S.) students in each area (since many foreign students return
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>overseas after completing their doctorates)?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Is THIS really true?  I guess it depends on how one defines `many'.
>Not that I have a very large and accurate sampling, but it is my
>experience that the great majority do not return overseas.  At least
>not by choice.

Depends on the country; from my own experience at least very few
people from, say, Greece, end up staying and working in the US.
Other countries can have up to 90% of their grad school grads 
ending up staying. 

Also, obviously, it depends on major.

Spiros


-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       striantafyll@kosds1.gm.hac.com
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
From: atkinson@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (David Atkinson)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: US academic job market improving?
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:10:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bvnowu.Mz5
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:

>In article <1992Oct2.192248.4287@cs.sfu.ca> mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald) writes:

>>The problem in the sciences is
>>on the supply side; all those people who believed that science held
>>a bright future, and so went into the scientific career track, and
>>are now flooding the market.  The humanties have attracted fewer
>>people, ergo less oversupply, at least in academia.

>Is this really true?  Does anyone have the statistics for the numbers
>of Ph.D. students in the humanities and social sciences versus the
>number in science and engineering?  How about the number of domestic
>(U.S.) students in each area (since many foreign students return
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>overseas after completing their doctorates)?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>--

Is THIS really true?  I guess it depends on how one defines `many'.
Not that I have a very large and accurate sampling, but it is my
experience that the great majority do not return overseas.  At least
not by choice.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald)
Subject: Re: Other attacks on research (Was: Re: The Cold War: a Golden Age...)
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:17:23 GMT


From a previous posting
>>>
As it stands now, the tenured professor has everything to gain by being
mentor to brilliant grads.  In this regard, it could be worse.
<<<

Actually, no.

It takes a lot of effort to produce a "brilliant grad", even if said student
has the innate potential.  It takes little effort to spend a great deal
of taxpayers money building up a stable of graduate students, whom you
then ignore due to time pressuers, in hopes that at least some of them
will produce something which will enhance your reputation.

If tenure were eliminated AND one of the requirements for continuing
employment were decent performance in the supervisory role (a reasonably
small dropout rate and avg completion time, etc), then the quality of
graduate would significantly increase.  Note that the universities should
NOT impose a "you must graduate a certain number of grad students every
five years" rule.  This would simply encourage further overproduction
of grad students, and lower standards as a whole (because depts would be
afraid to fail student.)

Tenure is the other major corrosive influence (besides government funding)
which is slowly but surely destroying the higher education system in
North America.  The need for it has almost completely disappeared, as
compared to when it was first introduced.  Abolishing it would no doubt
result in a very few unfair firings, but would also result in the
disposal of a heck of a lot of deadwood, and a realignment of the incentive
system in universities to some kind of normalcy.  The net benefit would
be large, and the net injustice would be reduced.  (It would be nice if
we could have a perfectly fair system, but hey . . . life ain't perfect.)

Ciao,
Ken McDonald
mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: landman@hal.physics.wayne.edu (Joseph Landman)
Subject: Re: Other attacks on research (Was: Re: The Cold War: a Golden Age...)e
Organization: Department of Physics and Astronomy
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:52:24 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.172256.1923@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> lafave@ial4.jsc.nasa.gov (Dr. Norman J. LaFave) writes:
>From: lafave@ial4.jsc.nasa.gov (Dr. Norman J. LaFave)
>Subject: Re: Other attacks on research (Was: Re: The Cold War: a Golden Age...)e
>Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:22:56 GMT

>In article <LAWS.92Oct4180247@sunset.ai.sri.com>, laws@ai.sri.com (Kenneth I. Laws) writes:
>> ....  Theoretical research with no sponsorship should
>> be supported by the universities themselves (if they wish) --
>> as was the case before government patronage was available.
>> 
>>                                       -- Ken
>> --
>> 
>> Dr. Kenneth I. Laws, (415) 493-7390, laws@ai.sri.com.
>> Moderator of the Computists International AI/IS/CS mutual-aid association.
>> Ask about my weekly online career newsletter, The Computists' Communique.
>> 
>> 

>I'm sorry but I can't agree with this statement. With college tuitions
>now going up at twice the rate of inflation, it is unrealistic to
>expect universities to fund all theoretical and long-term research.
>The world of pioneering research has entered an era where the experiments
>can be quite expensive. As an alternative, I suggest that corporations
>and universities could feed into a mega-consortium which pays out
>grants for this kind of research. Expensive instruments could be shared
>among several researchers (i.e. the SSC) to limit costs. Any economic
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 I believe that the NSF Supercomputer Centers, though often bashed, are 
exactly this.  Investigators can get small medium or large scale grants  
from them with out incurring signigficant costs.  THe cost to run the 7 or 8 
that we have is (i believe) less than 1/10th the cost of the ssc/year  (eg 
about $50M for all per year).



>benefits from the
>research, either direct or spin-off, could then be given back to the
>competing organizations.

>Norman

>Dr. Norman J. LaFave

I have benefitted from them, I just hope that they survive this fiscal 
crisis (eg depression in MI anyway)

Joe
#,:::::::;,   ::            Joe Landman  Graduate Student (PhD),
#    ::       ::            Computational Solid State Physics.
#;:  ::       ::            Physics Dept., Wayne State Univ.   
#`::::; oe    ;:::; andman  666 Hancock Avenue, Detroit MI 48202 
#Internet: landman@hal.physics.wayne.edu landman@rhic2.physics.wayne.edu
#          kil@pandora.cs.wayne.edu  jland@ss0.eng.wayne.edu
#ATTnet: (313) 577-2720
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald)
Subject: Re: US academic job market improving?
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:27:25 GMT


From a previous post . . .
>>>
My impression is that we've already seen the worst, in science fields.
America is heading back to school, and teachers will be needed.  Our
department made 15-20 hires over the summer.
<<<

Guess again.  Read "Prospects for Faculty in the Arts and Sciences," a
nicely done research book put out by two people over at Princeton.  Should
be in your library.

To summarize:  only the humanities/social sciences have any real prospect
for a decent job market.  The hard sciences, nada.

Remember a few points:

1)  There are a lot of postdocs in holding pattern, waiting for jobs to
open up.  Some will time out by the time you (generic) finish your
Ph.D., many others will have built up a nice publication record.

2)  The budget crunch will continue.  University funding will be cut,
and (I suspect) there will be a growing realization that too many people
in North America are taking degrees that they really can't use.  I
suspect a real movement in the future to downsize universities, and move
the teaching load to community colleges.

3)  Once the recession ends, enrolments will drop.  If it doesn't end,
then enrolments will drop, because people will eventually run out of savings
or monetary sources to keep attending school.

4)  There are a lot of good faculty from Eastern Europe in various fields
looking for jobs.

5)  Even if you do get a job, the standard of living (leisure, pay, etc)
which can be expected by new faculty continues to deteriorate.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but with a decision like this, people should
be aware of the facts.

Do read the book.  It's worthwhile.

Ken McDonald
mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: glosson@convex.com (Allen Glosson)
Subject: Re: Stipend taxation bill (update)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:05:31 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Oct1.191008.23569@unocal.com> stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:

>Yet another special interest group (students) trying to escape their fair
>contribution to the economy.
>A little less tax tinkering by the government would introduce market-discipline
>in education- if there are too many students, then they won't be able to
>afford to attend grad school and leave;  if there are few enough, then they
>will be paid competative with non-academic jobs.

I agree that introducing market discipline into the post-graduate
education system is good, libertarian goal.

The reasoning behind this legislation is not as clear as it seems.  Someone
in Washington is actually thinking about how to get *MORE* revenue from
existing sources.  The argument is this: 
	1) Most persons with post-graduate degrees earn more money in the
  	   marketplace than those who only possess a BS, BA, or equivalent
	   level degree.
	2) If we (the government) can have more of these persons with
	   post-graduate degrees, we can get more tax revenue.
	3) An impediment to having more of these persons is the low
	   pay they receive during their studies.
	-  Which is better: 5 years of taxing ($8k-pe-sd) at 15% and 
	   		    possibly losing someone from that 33% bracket
				-or-
			    5 years of losing that tax revenue, but
			    making it up in the next 5 years as
			    $5k taxed at 33% plus being ahead for all of
			    the years after those first 10.
	   The government has decided that option 2 is the better one in 
	   the long term.

Amazing that someone in government actually appears to have thought about
what is better for the government in the long term.

Allen Glosson
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lcarver@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Lucy Carver)
Subject: Young Scientists Network
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:05:21 GMT

In the September 18 issue of Science in the Careers in Science section, they
mention a BBS called the Young Scientists Network.  Could someone either post
or e-mail me information on where to find this network and how to join.
Thanks in advance.

Lucy Carver
lcarver@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty)
Subject: Re: Stipend taxation bill (update)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:20:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.191427.4189@cs.sfu.ca>, mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca (Ken Mcdonald) writes:
|> 
|> [stuff deleted]
|> I agree that introducing market discipline into the post-graduate
|> education system is good, libertarian goal.
|> 
|> If the universities keep churning out graduate degrees, they will only
|> serve to deflate the value of the degree, as has already happened in
|> the sciences, and as happened with undergraduate degrees quite a
|> while ago.

	This may be true.  On the other hand, perhaps our primary education
system has bitten the big one, such that a highschool education is worth little,
and a B.S. has replaced it.  We now take th people who would have been awarded
a B.S. when it meant something and force them through an apprenticeship phase
of sorts in grad school.

|> (There's an excellent editorial on this phenomenon
|> by Robert Samuelson in a recent Newsweek.)  The net effect will be
|> that the government will have paid more and more to produce people
|> who are worth less and less.

	The worth of something is not always indicated by its current market
value.  Many valuable things get sold too cheap in this country. (And some
things that aren't worth a whole lot are overvalued too).

|> 
|> Even now, I doubt that the gov't gets back the money it puts into most
|> graduate students.  Think of all the money that is spent on RA and
|> TAships, subsidized fees, lost productive years, etc. etc. etc.

	Perhaps we should overhaul our lame education system rather than
go naked.  It seems wrong to expect big results with no resource.

|> 
|> Probably the best possible thing for North America's higher education
|> system would be a complete cutoff of government funding.

	Great idea, that would make research the playground of the Dan Quayle
crowd, all money and no brains.

|> among other things, force people to realize that the purpose of 
|> universities is not to give degrees to everyone, but to educate those
|> who have the potential to apply that education to the net benefit of
|> society (as well as themselves, of course.

	It would force universities to accept substandard students, and
churn out people (who must pay their own way) without any research potential in
order to keep their doors open.

|>  It might also force
|> high schools to start teaching again, instead of assuming universities
|> will pick up the slack.

	Punishing Universities will not improve the U.S. public education
system.  Our country is management top heavy in general, and has too little
emphasis on productivity.  WE need to have our best people teach and manage
at all levels, and eliminate positions of authority as havens for the mediocre.

|> 
|> Yours,
|> Ken McDonald
|> mcdonald@cs.sfu.ca

	Bill Maniatty

|> 
|> "Money corrupts.  Government money corrupts absolutely."

-- 
|
|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty
|
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Stipend taxation bill (update)
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:10:08 GMT

Yet another special interest group (students) trying to escape their fair
contribution to the economy.
A little less tax tinkering by the government would introduce market-discipline
in education- if there are too many students, then they won't be able to
afford to attend grad school and leave;  if there are few enough, then they
will be paid competative with non-academic jobs.
From: josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Relevant _Science_ issue out
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:35:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: mowgli.josh.717791732
Organization: University of Washington

Just a point of information: I got the latest issue of _Science_
yesterday and it contains a large section on employment issues
in the sciences. The issue is dated 18 September and the cover
is rather cartoonish, a connection of vaguely Escher-like ideas,
with the text "Careers '92: Alternate Paths".

I pored over it carefully, and found MYSELF quoted! Gack! I finally
get something in _Science_, and it's a bitch about the sorry state
of things! I guess I can kiss that tenure-track job goodbye now.
(half a smiley here)

Josh Hayes

--
Josh Hayes, Quantitative Sciences HR-20 U of Washington
josh@mowgli.cqs.washington.edu             206 685-2793
Exclaimer: Hey!           Plan: Birth School Work Death
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman)
Subject: Re: Taulbee Survey on CS Ph.D.'s
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 01:52:10 GMT

The Taulbee Survey is an annual "feature" in CACM, for at least several years
now, so you should be able to see new data each year.


-- 
--Mike Coleman (coleman@cs.ucla.edu), Lord High Executioner of Anhedonia-----
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: debray@sisters.cs.uoregon.edu (Saumya K. Debray)
Subject: AA and civil rights
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:20:45 GMT


[from The Register-Guard, Eugene, OR, Tue Sept. 29, 1992]

Law school to alter admissions rules

WASHINGTON -- The law school of the University of California at Berkeley has
agreed to change its admissions practices so that they no longer violate
civil rights laws, Education Department officials said Monday.  The
agreement comes after a two-year investigation into whether the university's
affirmative action program, designed to increase diversity among students
admitted to the law school, met the requirements of Title VI of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964, which outlaws discrimination on the basis of race, color
or national origin.  The university did not admit any wrongdoing but said it
would take "procedural" steps to come into full compliance with the law.
-- 
Saumya Debray
CIS Dept, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR
debray@cs.uoregon.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: koichi@unixg.ubc.ca (Koichi J Kishimoto)
Subject: Re: Research and Teaching without a PhD?
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: sci
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 04:49:58 GMT

My old engineering department at a UK university, I understand, 
preferred to employ lecturers who had graduate degrees and
relevant industrial experiences. 

(A sensible policy. At least for engineering) 

We had several very good lecturers (who also carried out considerable
research) with only a Masters degree. I understand, however, that
they were encouraged to engage in part time PhDs. 

I knew one senior lecturer who received his PhD just before retiring.
His research programmes (amongst others) included aspects of 
medical engineering, including artificial hip joints and artificial arms for
thalidomide affected children. He was also a very good teacher.

John Kishimoto
koichi@unixg.ubc.ca
From: samir@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Samir Patel)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Career in Biomedical Acoustics and Signal Processing
Date: 26 Sep 92 18:15:20 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Keywords: 


  Hi ,

   Could anybody enlighten me on research career and industrial job prospects
   in field of Biomedical Acoustics and Biomedical signal Processing ?

   I appreciate any pionter in this direction.
   Thanks in advance,

   with best regards,
   -Samir Patel
   Email: samir@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Xref: sparky sci.research.careers:1222 sci.psychology:3926
From: jars@milton.u.washington.edu (Juan Rodriguez-Sero)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,sci.psychology
Subject: Re: Montreal news of Fabrikant - 5
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:31:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Sep27.203105.4445
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1999@snap> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
>
>I suspect that there must be a mental condition akin to paranoia where
>the sufferer engages in disputes with authority in order to make them
>pay attention.

From my layman's viewpoint, those behaviour are not products of any
"mental condition;" but rather poltical tactics known as CIVIL DIS-
OBEDIENCE.

I guess Fabricant truied that in the ex-USRR and was severely 
punished; and when he came over to this side, he sincerely believed
he could gain anything going to court.

I hope by now he knows better.


Juan Antonio Rodriguez-Sero     | Those who have long enjoyed
School of Oceanography          | such privileges as we enjoy
University of Washington, WB-10 | forget in time that
Seattle, WA 98195               | men have died to win them.
jars@u.washington.edu           |
(206) 543 - 7003 (work)         |      Franklin D. Roosevelt 
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers