From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:28:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.061315.1128@rhrk.uni-kl.de>
andrick@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Ulf Andrick) writes:

>
>In article <1992Aug26.230720.11182@mtu.edu>, cescript@mtu.edu (Charles
>Scripter) writes:
>>
>> Ok, let's have a look (I'll only select a few, to save space):
>>
>>                  H O M I C I D E
>>                                   PER         ABSOLUTE
>> RANK  COUNTRY                     100,000     NUMBERS
>> ====  ==========================  =======     ========
>>  11   United States                 9.60      18,155
>>  18   Netherlands                   7.15         964
>>  25   Finland                       4.88         229
>>  27   West Germany                  4.47       2,771
>                                                 ^^^^^
>I know that number. It comprises about 1900 attempts, which means that
>about 800 people were actually killed. I wonder what the quote of attempts
>is in the US. If people have access to guns and use them when they try to
>kill somebody, they might be more successful.

     Homicide figures generally indicate somebody died.  However, the above
source does not provide either a reference or a year...

>>  34   Sweden                        3.36         275
>>  35   Austria                       3.06         229
>>  36   Italy                         2.95       1,643
>>  40   France                        2.70       1,429
>>  45   England & Wales               2.24       1,102
>>  46   Denmark                       2.03         102
>>  59   Norway                        0.50          20
>>
>> -------------------  R A P E  -----------------
>>                                 PER         ABSOLUTE
>> RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
>> ====  ========================  =======     ========
>>    2  West Germany              77.49       48,075
>>    8  Netherlands               56.00        7,554
>>    9  England & Wales           50.20       24,698
>>   13  Scotland                  44.69        2,330
>>   14  Denmark                   41.06        2,068
>>   15  Sweden                    40.52        3,313
>>   18  Austria                   30.42        2,274
>>   22  United States             26.30       40,168
>>   23  France                    26.19       13,828
>>   28  Norway                    23.43          931
>>   34  Italy                     11.87        6,605
>>   39  Finland                    9.44          443
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I don't have stats for assaults, and other violent crimes.
>> It does look like Europe has a problem with rape.
>
>These numbers are regrettable, especially for Germany. But I don't see
>how rape is related to the subject of this thread, which is
>guns. (Guns are rarely used in rapes, at least in Germany.)

     Guns can not only be used *in* a rape, but to defend against a rape,
and that is most certainly germane to the discussion.  Unless you,
as some do, feel that it is morally wrong to resist a rape with lethal
force.
     I believe the point of the above post is that lack of guns does
not always correspond to lack of violent crime, as some people have
asserted.
>
>People in a state with restrictive arms control laws are not necessarily
>less criminal than others, but the number of people killed is probably
>lower when there are less firearms about.

      I have seen some numbers which suggest that the while the number
of people killed declines when guns are less available to the general
public (It is far harder to disarm criminals) that number far more
often includes victims than before.  That is, you may be trading two dead
assailants for one dead victim.
     I'm not sure that's an improvement.

========================================================================
| David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu                                  |
|             University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education |
========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french