HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:29 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:



#While I've never caught anything on the slide of my Browning 9mm, I have the
#toughest time convincing friends to keep their hands below the curve (the one
#that should fit nicely *above* your hand on the back of the grip).  I finally
#convinced them with this little thought exercise.

#1)  You know how hard it is to pull back the slide.
#2)  You know that the slide has to move back to cycle another round.
#3)  You know that every time you yank the trigger (new shooters :-)  ),
#    another round is waiting for you (except for that 14th shot...).
#4)  Judging by this, the slide must be cycling automatically, hence the name.
#5)  Do *you* see it cycle?  Think about how fast that must be moving.....

#They immediately improve their grip!

In the same vein:
  This weekend I was introducing someone to shooting and he kept putting
a finger in _front_ of the trigger guard on the revolver.  The revolver he
was shooting was a .22 so his finger was just getting a little black
from the gasses escaping from the cylinder gap.  To demonstrate why this
was _not_ "A Good Idea" I took a .357 (revolver) and shot it with a new
target (paper) held beside it.  The gasses escaping from the cylinder gap
ripped a 3 inch hole in the paper...

 Chris

P.S. Ignore the .sig - please!
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:25:14 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) / 12:11 pm  Aug 14, 1992 /

#While I've never caught anything on the slide of my Browning 9mm, I have the
#toughest time convincing friends to keep their hands below the curve (the one
#that should fit nicely *above* your hand on the back of the grip).  I finally
#convinced them with this little thought exercise.

Depends on where you train.  John Farnum may not be as well known as Ayoob, 
but he DOES have very good credentials.  He teaches a thumbs up grip 
on auto's that has the thumb of your strong hand on top of the safety, 
(thumb over safety isn't that uncommon) and the thumb of your weak 
hand straight up in front of your strong hand thumb.  Yes, this thumb
is riding on the slide.  No it doesn't hurt.  No, it doesn't interfere 
with the slide.  You can put your whole hand against it and it will still 
cycle.  

Advantage?  Almost eliminates the tendency to throw your first quick shot 
low and to the left.

Rick.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:44:01 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <1992Aug19.171124.26219@news.yale.edu> swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:
#
#On another occasion teaching someone to shoot, a yellowjacket started
#buzzing around her head.  With loaded gun, finger on trigger, she attempted
#to use the gun as a swatter.  I hit the ground.  The shooter, myself, and
#the yellowjacket all survived.
#[...]
#My instructions regarding spent shell casings and stray wasps are "they
#won't kill you; losing control of a firearm might".

A useful tip to remember...

My oldest daughter and I went shooting last spring at a local range.

Some of out time was spent on the pistol side shooting a .22 semi-auto.

She was feeling pretty good, getting some good groups, when a bee nailed
her on her trigger finger.  (She has long had an extreme dislike to live
bees in her vicinity.)

What she did suprised me: She carefully laid the .22 down, picked up a
target that was lying on the bench behind her, rolled it up, stalked the
bee (who was *not* having a good day by this time anyway), and with the
rolled up target converted said insect into a spot of grease.

*Then* she started jumping up and down and called for me to bring over
my knife to remove the stinger.  Her normal response would have been to
start jumping and yelling when stung.

I'd forgotten the episode until a couple of days ago when she reminded
me of it while we were setting up for some air rifle practice at home.

Her only comment: "I was grouping pretty well until the bee got me."

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Book research: Bullets in water.
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:38 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <168slmINNbjt@agate.berkeley.edu>, fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug11.115737.15551@dxcern.cern.ch> mcmanus@dxcern.cern.ch (Leo McManus) writes:
|> #My hero is being shot at from about 200-300 Meters with an SLR .76 caliber.
|> #I need to know how far he must dive if he is to be anywhere near safe.
|> 
|> Not too far, I think: Fighter pilots during the Second World War (on
|> both sides...) had a nasty habit of strafing any downed enemy pilots that
|> they saw in the ocean. Alot of people survived this sort of thing by diving
|> down a few meters.


There is an interesting chapter on this subject in the "NRA Firearms Facts"
booklet.  Since my copy is at home, I can't post a summary until tonight or
tomorrow.  As I recall, controlled tests were done for both handguns and
rifles.

Another chapter is devoted to the behavior of live ammunition in house
fires.  Interesting stuff -- everyone should have a copy.
-- 

- Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
From: lcline@agora.uucp (Larry Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bolo ammunition
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:52 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

In article <1992Aug19.030708.18935@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> doi@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Daniel Kuan Li Oi) writes:
...                    [big snip!]

#
#	I believe that there was ammunition produced during the civil
#war which consisted of wire connecting two cannon balls with the same
#propulsion charge out of it.  I am not sure how effective it was but the
#intention was the same as the other cannon. 
#

You are thinking of chain shot, which was intended to destroy the rigging,
sails and masts of the targeted ship.


-- 
Larry Cline
lcline@agora.rain.com
C_________   Industrial Graphics
From: kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Sgt Kevin P. Knox)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: deceased ffl holder--what to do
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:32 GMT


#From:           hmueller@orca.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller)
#Subject:        deceased FFL holder--what to do?
#
#A friend of a friend recently died; he was a part-time pistol dealer
#and gunsmith.  My friend is executor.

#In general terms, what needs to be done to close the FFL records
#and keep the BATF happy?  What traps, pitfalls, problems have
#others seen when closing an FFL operation?

Hal,

I currently possess a class 001 FFL and this info came from the Guide
To Federal Firearms Regulations (ATF P 5300.4(6-88)).  I recieved it
less than two years ago, so it may not be valid info other than the
phone numbers.  I could only find a couple of sections of federal code
that came close to your situation.

TITLE 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178 -

          Commerce in Firearms and Ammunitions
          ------------------------------------

178.57 Discontinuance of business

        Where a firearms or ammunition business is either discontinued
or succeeded by a new owner, the owner of the business discontinued or
succeded shall within 30 days thereof furnish to the regional director
(compliance) for the region in which his business was located,
notification of the discontinuance or succession.  (See, also,
178.127 (923(g)(4))

*Note* - The AFT Firearms Out-Of-Business Records Center can be found
at 3361F 75th Avenue, Landover, Maryland 20785.

 Hal, - I also found this in the question & answer part of the guide:

Question:  MUST A LICENSEE'S RECORDS BE SURRENDERED TO THE ATF IF THE
LICENSEE DISCONTINUES HIS BUSINESS?

Answer:  If someone is taking over the business, the licensee will
underline the final entry in each bound book, note the date of
transfer, and deliver all completed Forms 4473 and the bound books to
the successor (who must apply for and receive, his own license before
lawfully engaging in business).  If there is no business successor,
within 30 days of business discontinuance the licensee is to ship his
bound books and Forms 4473 to ATF or to the Firearms Our-of-Business
Records Center, 3361F 75th Avenue, Landover, Maryland 20785 (178.127)

**I didn't copy federal code 178.127 because it only repeated what
is said above.

The number to one ot the ATF offices in Washington D.C. is
202-566-7591.

My sincerest condolences go out to you for the loss of your friend.  I
hope this information helped.

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)=
|  Kevin Knox, Assistant DDN NSC                    KKNOX@192.12.64.3        |
|  2046 Comm Group, BCTF                                                     |
|  Cmrcl: (513)257-4088   DSN 787-4088    KKNOX@LOGDIS1.HQ.AFLC.WPAFB.AF.MIL |
|                                                                            |
|  "Time flies like lightning.... Fruit flies like banana!"                  |
|                                                                            |
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)=
From: pertinax@raley.gwinnett.COM (Pertinax)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: aluminum bullets
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:38:37 GMT

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

# In the latest issue of the Atlanta Discount Ammo flier, there's some weird
# .38 special ammo listed: a 33 grain HP _aluminum_ bullet. The manufacturer
# (American Ballistics) claims a muzzle velocity 2,750 fps. This stuff is +P.
# 
# Weird. Can anybody figure out what the terminal ballistics of such a round
# might be like? Would you get any penetration? 
# -- 
# ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#              |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
# Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
# ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was once shown an Al .38 bullet that was supposedly an "air marshall" round.
The guy called it an "Aluminum super hollow point" and claimed that it would
produce enough shock to stop the heart if it hit anywhere from the knees or
elbows in (toward the heart).  I have no idea if this is true.  Also, it
supposedly wouldn't penetrate the skin of the airliner.  Which is a good
characteristic for bullets to be used against skyjackers.  Could be total BS.
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Information
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:58 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <1992Aug12.211550.6349@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
#In article <1992Aug10.205916.709@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com
#(The Polymath) writes:
#
##}    Can some of you give your opnions on the most lethal 9mm round available?
##
##COR-BON claims 90.9% one shot stops based on actual shootings with their
##115 gr 9mm +P.
##
##Note, neither of the above ratings have anything to do with "lethality."
##They are chances of stopping an attack with one shot, regardless of
##whether or not the attacker dies.
#
#Question:  can any 9mm Parabellum/Luger pistol fire +P rounds?

No.  If you have an alloy framed 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO/9x19 you
probably shouldn't be feeding it +P or +P+ rounds because it may shorten
the service life of the frame.  Your mileage will vary.  Best bet is to
call the firearm manufacturer to be sure if it doesn't mention it in the
firearm's manual.  Generally if the given firearm is certified to work
with +P and +P+ ammunition it will be with ammunition that is SAAMI or
NATO specifications.  Then to call the ammunition maker and see if they
have done tests with your particular pistol (both maker and model) and
if their ammuntion meets SAAMI/NATO specifications.

I have also heard that +P and +P+ rounds are a bear on recoil.  Since
you'd have to handload hot rounds to get and equivalent practice round,
I don't think it's worth it.  I have yet to see any 9mm +P or +P+
factory reloads.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: glaird@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Gordon Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re: bolo ammunition
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:50 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


   I know that during the Nepoleanic wars and there abouts, grape shot was
often used in cannons.  It consisted of lead or iron balls (not unlike shot
in a shotgun shell) tied together with chain or wire.  Its primary purpose was
to rapidly clear the rigging off an enemy ship.  Coincidently, it had
a rather gruesome effect on any crew members who happened to be on deck as
well.

  In Vietnam (not generally publicized) they used flechetts (spell?).  This
ammunition is most commonly loaded for shotguns.  It consists of hundreds of
small wire sigments with a barb on one end that acts as a tail or feather.
Very messy.
  An acquaintance mentioned a fire fight that he was in, in which their post
was being over run one night.  Out of desperation, as 'charlie' was making it
through the perimeter, they loaded up flechetts in their artillery pieces.
They set the guns at zero elevation and fired them point blank.  The next
day, they went outside the perimeter to survey the damage.  Not only was
all the vegetation (including hard wood trees), completely shredded, but they
found thousands & thousands of flechetts with bits of flesh and clothing
imbedding every object that was standing.  They didn't find very many 
enemy casualties.
From: rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:38:45 GMT
Organization: Norwegian School of Economics

In a fit of thoughtlessness, I managed to abuse my friends' Bowning HP
in the above mentioned fashion at the range today, whereupon a bystander
offered the following enlightenment:

-'What you just did equals at least 1.000 shots' worth of wear to the gun.'

I am fully aware that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a no-no,
but I'm curoius to the REAL amount of wear itcontributes.

So, those of you who knows, is the quoted statement just gun.folklore or
is it more or less the truth?

ragnar
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:46 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Aug7.135440.16290@ke4zv.uucp>, ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
|> In article <vvtm20b.damiel@netcom.com> damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
|> #
|> #whether you achieve 100% reliability or not, you should never use reloads/
|> #handloads for carry/defense. If you do, and you have to defend yourself
|> #in court after a defense shooting, they'll tear you a new you-know-what
|> #in court.
|> 
|> This seems to be carrying paranoia beyond reasonable limits. If you load
|> to factory specs, there's no difference, and how are they going to tell?

Quite easily - factory rounds can be easily distinguished from reloads.

The factories use powders that you can't get, except if you were to order huge
quantities, measured in tons.  These powders differ in physical properties from
canister powders, and from lot to lot, and the factories modify the charge
weights to account for that.

That's not to say that, given enough effort, you couldn't duplicate, physically,
factory ammunition, but if you're willing to go to that effort, why not just
shoot factory rounds?

The advice originally given is sound - the use of handloads has resulted in
trouble from aggressive DAs for persons practicing self-defense.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: thaanuj@prism.cs.orst.edu (John Thaanum)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M1 Carbine questions
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:43 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.

I recently inherited an original WWII style M1 Carbine, dated 1945, 
manufactured by Inland division of General Motors.  About all I know about 
it is that shooting it is about as fun as shooting gets, and that it is real
easy to piss away a huge quantity of ammo.

Question #1:  What is the finish on this thing?  I am pretty sure it is 
just Parkerized, but the color is a little funny, and it is far from smooth.
The machine marks are quite deep, and the wear patterns don't agree with
what I've seem on other Parkerized pieces.  And I swear this thing drinks
oil.  Last time I lubed it, I went crazy.  There literally was oil pooling 
in all the low spots.  After sitting in the closet for a couple of weeks, 
the thing was bone-dry!  It looked like it hadn't been touched by a human
for years.

Question #2:  Are any of you out there aware of some mod I can perform to
make the ejected brass land in a consistent direction?  About two-thirds of
the time the spent brass flies in the expected rightward-and-rearward
direction, but I have been hit in the head by them, and have had them hit my
left arm (shooting in a right-handed stance).  It isn't a problem worth
turning a gunsmith loose on, so if there isn't an easy solution, I'll just
learn to live with it.

Mucho apreciado,


-- 
      +--------------------------------------------------------+
	   John Thaanum          thaanuj@prism.cs.orst.edu
	"A better tomorrow takes your best today..."  -Triumph
      +--------------------------------------------------------+
From: soltis@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com (Don Soltis)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Counter-Coil recoil suppressor
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:40 GMT


PLEASE RESPOND TO scot@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com.

I am looking for opinions on the Counter Coil recoil reduction system.  There
are several systems on the market these days and this one in particular is a
hydraulicly damped moving butt piece that is installed in the stock.  It
requires approximately 1.25" to be cut from the back of the stock an three
holes bored into the stock itself.  The unit is then screwed onto the back of
the stock and a recoil padl/butt plate installed on the back of the unit.

If anyone has experience with this system, I would like to have their opinions.
Specifically I am interested in:

  1) Perceived effectiveness.
  2) Performace vrs. ambient temperature.
  3) Reliability.
  4) Installed cost.

You can email me or post, someone else may be interested.

-Scot
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Check Weights - A Gadget Review
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:13:51 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Aug18.012119.28968@ncsu.edu> hes@ncsu.edu 
(Henry E. Schaffer) writes:

#  So finally I bought a "Scale Weight Check Set" (a Lyman #7752313)
#which has a total of 10 weights which can be used to put together a

I also bought a check weight set about 20 years ago.  I can't remember
what brand it is just now.  Let's see, I think it has three 20 gn, one 10,
one 5, one 2, two 1, one 1/2, and four 1/10.  After I got it, I weighed
the weights on a lab balance that would read even the smallest weight
out to five places.  Such accuracy in weighing proved unnecessary -
many of the smaller weights were off 10% one direction or another.  So I 
made up a table to use with them.  I figure this is necessary since you
often have to use a large number of weights and so the absolute error can
in fact get large if you pick an unfortunate group.

I'd be curious how your accurate Lyman set is, Henry.  Got a lab balance
someplace where you work?

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: TACTICAL 3 GUN MATCHES
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:34:06 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center


In case folks are not aware of it, in the SF bay area, at Chabot Gun Club,
to be specific there are 3 gun tactical matches held once a month.
For those who are not familiar with this each mont a different match is
held usint either pistol(main defense, hide-out,back-up, magnum), rifle
(carbine, battle, sniper) or shotgun.  Shooters go to the line, load up
and bdgin.  Pistol shooting often starts with a draw from a holster and
often includes reloads, taking cover and engaging targets blocked partially
by 'good gusy/ hostages'.  Ranges vary from 1 ft to 250 yards. Speed is
essential but accuracy cannot be discounted.  Of course, not just anyone
can show up and start shooting since there are safety considerations when
people are running, crawling etc with loaded guns in their hands but
one can start by going to PCC matches first, also at Chabot.  Its a lot
of fun and gives real meaing to the word 'practical' since target identif-
cation, jam clearing etc. are all included.  Anyone intereted could contact
Chabot Gun Club for more info.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:51 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Aug17.141137.6034@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# #From article <rani.713990042@barsoom>, by rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen):
# # In a fit of thoughtlessness, I managed to abuse my friends' Bowning HP
# # in the above mentioned fashion at the range today, whereupon a bystander
# # offered the following enlightenment:
# # 
# # -'What you just did equals at least 1.000 shots' worth of wear to the gun.'
# # 
# This is a new one on me.  I'm inclined to think that it does no
# harm, certainly, I've done it enough to a variety of self-loaders
# to have broken a gun some time or other if it did. 


   A lot of wether this is true has to do with the construction of the 
auto in question. Mainly the area of the sear mechanism. This whole 
idea is correct in regard to finely tuned, light triggered 1911-type
pistols. This is the area of concern of Bill Wilson in his .45 book.
He states that the sear is normally disconnected at the time of slide
operation and recommends pulling the trigger when racking the slide.

   If your 1911-type auto has a trigger of less than around 3-4 lbs then
you should take care in slamming the slide. It's not going to actually
"break" anything but if the practice is continued you may find the hammer
dropping on it's own when the slide returns to battery and you'll be making
a trip to the gunsmith for a trigger job. If the trigger job has been 
performed properly then banging the slide a few times is not going to
instantly wreck your trigger.

   This whole idea is of less concern on other type combat autos such
as Glock, SIG, Baretta, etc.  IMHO. :-)



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH