From: khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 05:47:49 GMT

In article <1eh4cjINNmom@morrow.stanford.edu> aliki@nova1.stanford.edu (Alexandra Schmidt) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.061548.20932@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>
>>wanted to say better, but it is not really true. It is better to be R.
>>or C. then non-observant at all. What is scary about all this is that
>>sooner or later you or your children will step even lower and then, G-d
>>forbid, will just get out of it. I know a lot of Reform people that are
>>xians now and have no idea about Judaism (nor about xnity). It is very
>>easy to say that THAT will not happen to you. Oh,no, never.... 
>
>Wow, Dima.  You are painting quite a unidirectional primrose path here.
>Changing your religious affiliation (in any direction) is not something 
>'happens' to you; religious affiliation is one of a very few things in
>life people truly have a choice about.  I'd be highly surprised if any
>of your Reform friends ever said, "I'm glad I'm a Jew, it would never
>'happen' that I'd become a Christian", and then became a Christian.  
>Orthodox Jews don't have the monopoly on being proud and happy to 
>be Jewish (I hope you're not implying that), and people who take pride and
>derive joy from being Jewish don't stop being Jewish.  Christianity is not
>some evil fate lurking out there waiting to snatch non-Orthodox Jews 
>irrespective of their own free will.

Please, don't misunderstend me here. People whose daughter converted are
glad they are jews, that's why it was a big shock for them. They never
thought it could happen to them. I never said that Orthodox people had
the monapoly of what you are talking about. 
I don't really care what xnity is. I know one thing, it is not Judaism
and that's all a Jew has to know. As far as I am concerned xnity is a
stolen religion, stolen from Judaism and later used as a weapon in
domestic affairs. It is not the xnity that is lurking out there to
snatch non-Orthodox Jews, it is non-Orthodox Jews who are out there not
understanding that they are not attached enough to Judaism and not
protected from being snatched. Although, xnity does snatch too. 
One my friends who is an Orthodox Rabbi told me a story (true story),
that when he was studing in college to become a dentist one of the guys
tried to convert him to xnity. So, he asked that guy why of all people
he chose him? The guy answered that in his ch. they get points for
converting people. Boy, was I shocked when I heard this, but was even
more shocked when I heard the last part of the story. It turned out that
they get 1 point for converting any person, they get 2 points for
converting a Jew. So, the guy figured that if converts a Rabbi he is
going to get 3 points at least. So, they are out there, but no, they are
not the main problem. I did talk to the guy that basically converted
that girl. He is as damn as... So, he is not the one who really pulled
her into this, she is the one who pulled herself into this. That's why I
blamed R. Yeah, you can blame the parents too, and you should, but the
parents are reform and did everything that any other person in their
synagogue did. It is not that I am looking for a reason to blame R. or
C., it is just that I did thought about it alot and all arguments leed
to the R. 

>
>>you might call it just a coincidence, but I call it natural finish. And
>>it is finish for her.(I am in the process of trying to get her back,
>>but, boy, is it difficult.) Try to understand that if you are
>>Conservative you are already one step down, the next step is Reform, BUT
>>WHAT IS THE NEXT ONE, THERE IS NOTHING LEFT OF JUDAISM AFTER THAT.
>
>Try to understand that the patronizing attitude you are displaying (whether

Acutually, it is a very good point. One should not continue with the
things like these if it brings "war" instead of deeper understanding.
This is one of the things I am constantly looking for, that is not to
bring a "war".

>you are realizing it or not, you are saying that C is not as good as O,
>R is not as good as C, beyond R. . .the devil and the deep blue sea) is
>a huge turnoff (I'm not surprised you're having a difficult time convincing
>this young woman that Judaism is in line with her view of the world).

Well, I have not talked to her about this directly, I mean about comming
back to Judaism. But I do sense that it is not going to be easy. Why?
Not because I am such a turn off, but because people like her are
usually the ones that just don't want to listen. She made up her mind
and that is it. She had a dream.... Like my Rabbi said to this: "I had a
dream where I was an ant. Yeah, that's it, I am converting to ants!" 
Oh, and I would not call her a young woman, a girl would be more
appropriate for her.
  
>I have a difficult time hanging out with people (fundie Christians are the
>ones I have in mind) who are convinced that 'Alexandra is such a nice 
>person, what a shame [she's going to burn in hell because] she doesn't see
>the error of her beliefs', but it's even sadder to see Jews saying the
>exact same thing about other Jews.  Just take out the bracketed words.
>

I never said that it is the same as in xnity about getting to Heaven. I
personally think that this was done in xnity to make people follow the
laws that, by the way, had nothing to do with the religion, but with the
domestic disputes. But if you are a Jew then you should observe the
mitzvot, and if you don't then I have no idea what is going to happen to
you after you die. It is a good thing to ask Rabbi about, which I am
going to. 


>>Then their children...
>
>Since your experience with Jews from non-observant homes seems to be limited
>to such dire examples, here's some perspective.   I grew up in a community of 
>few Jews and no synagogue, in an extremely unkosher home filled to the brim
>with Jewish books, music, and art; my mother baked challah every Friday and
>taught herself to read Hebrew from books while pregnant with me so she could
>teach me Hebrew, which I now speak fairly well.  (I continued studying in
>college and have the chance to speak it regularly now.)  Yes, my parents
>and brother still go to work/school on Yom Kippur; yes, I keep a kosher 
>home (and just do the cooking myself when I visit my family, it's not
>a problem).  I dated non-Jewish boys in high school; two of them have 
>converted to Judaism (one is Orthodox now, the other Conservative) and have 
>commented that spending Friday evenings with my family (who never go to shul)
>was the first experience that made them feel that Judaism had an enormous
>amount to offer them.  (I'm not extolling the benefits of interdating, Dima;
>merely pointing out that people make all kinds of religious choices, and 
>your portraying the different branches of Judaism as three steps on a ladder
>with only one way to go--DOWN--is a sweeping generalization, and in my
>experience, not a very accurate one.)

That was pretty interesting and very nice. Well, let me tell you my
story, but short, because I would probably have to sit here at least for
4 hours to just give you some details about my jewish experience. But I
hope this gives you some idea. 

I was born in Russia. My parents were not religious and are not to this 
day. I never even knew I was a Jew, I mean I knew I was a Jew, but in my
mind it had nothing to do with religion. Nobody would let me forget that
I was Jewish. Almost every day in school there was some kind of incedent
with the other kids about this fact. Almost every time it ended up being
a fight. I had a Jewish friend with whom we usually left our High School
and they would wait for us, about 20 of them, to pick on one of us and
start a fight, which I still think was not exactly fair... One day my
friend broke somebody's nose in one of the fights, which was started by
the other guy. The principal herself send him to detention. I even went
to complain to the principal about this, since I saw the fight and who
started it and WHY!! The principal did not even want to talk to me about
this. Well, do you think the teachers were any easier on us then our
classmates. No, it was even harder because they would not say they hated
us, they would fail us on the exams, especially in Russian language.
Apparently, they thought that a Jew can't really know Russian. Why?
Because he is a Jew. Well, in times of perestroyka one of the Rabbies
came from Israel to Leningrad. They organized a Sunday school. When I
came there the first time there were only 5 people there out of about
170,000 Jews that lived in the city. I came there with my friend. The
Rabbi was originally from Russia, so, he knew Russian and we could
communicate. He was also a Chasid, which as you understand even more
strict. Anyway, to skip how it developed I'll say that in a while there
was a jewish school opened from 1-12 grade. It was a strictly religious
school but you can not believe how many people came there. There was not
enough place for everybody. The school contained about 500 people. It
was held in the synagogue and the best teachers of the city were hired,
which by the way were Jews. That's where I found out what being a jew
was really like. We studied Torah, Talmud. People who wanted, stayed
after school and studied in the Rabbies class where he did not just go
over Torah and Talmud but went very very deep into it. I went to that
class almost every day. We could study one little passage for 3-4 days.
Do you think I agreed with everything he said? I did not agree with
anything that he said. I opposed him, saying things like: Why should I
do this when I....etc. I applied the common sense that I got from my
life experience to what he said and whenever those did not agree I did
not agree either. And you know what I think? I think that gave me what I
have now: a full understanding of what I am doing now. To this day I am
amazed at the Rabbi's patience. I went to that school for two years and
the only reason that I got out of it is that I had to leave for U.S. I
became Orthodox in Russia. But it was not brainwashing like many
consider Orthodox (mainly because they don't know anything about it and
about Judaism for that matter).It was a very long process. I opposed it.
I argued it. I struggled with it. I understood it. I felt it. 
And here I am in U.S.A.

>
>>That's the biggest problem with C. and R. they don't stay with their
>>opinions they move further as the media (goyim) moves.
>
>Would you care to cite an example of media-induced changes in the 
>Conservative or Reform movements?
>
Sure. For example, the whole thing with sexism. Everybody started
talking about it (I mean goyim), so R. and C. started emphizing this
topic in their shuls. No, of course, they did not change their views as
fast as goyim did, but they did move a little. Now, another little move
would still be considered "little", but it is not, not anymore. Some
people wrote to me that Reformism came to U.S. from the Jews from
Germany. Yes, I know it did and the only reason they took off their
kipot is because they wanted to be like everybody else, they did not
want to be pointed out on a street and you know what, that's
understandable, I don't want that either. I still feel uncomfortable
when people stare at my kipah in the SuperMarket and on the streets.
Maybe it is just a habbit that is left in me from Russia, but I don't
think it will ever go away. Anyway, like I said before, they did not
want to be different. So, they made something that they thought was
Jewish enough, so, they are not different now. But let me tell you my
fellow Jews, you are different and you always will be, no matter what
you do. I think it is pretty obvious from my story above. I did not
observe anything, I did not practice my religion at all, my face is not
recognizable as Jewish one, but I still got punished for this. The
question that is probably interesting here is why, why did they still
pick on me, I was not showing any signs of being Jewish. Even in sports
I was almost the first one in class, dated the most popular girl(s) in the
class, but still they did that to me, why? There is an answer to that. You can
conceal everything: your jewish nose, your jewish looking parents,
everything is concealable, except one. Your Jewish soul is not
concealable and its belonging to Hashem. Even if you don't know who and
what Hashem is, it is still there,  and there is not way in the world
you can conceal that. That is knowledge is not as important as feeling,
(however, knowledge is very important too.) Do not assume something that
is based on your goyish knowledge, because there is a very good chance
it is going to be wrong. Go to a Rabbi, Orthodox Rabbi, and ask him
about the thing that you think is wrong and should not be in Judaism.
Argue with him, argue till you drop (and I know you will drop), then you
will get the real answer on your question. If his the answer doesn't
satisfy you then go to another Rabbi, don't stop, never stop. Then, there
are going to be no more posts like "Torah is sexist". There is a reason
for everything. If you don't know the reason, that does not permit you
to disobey. What you should do is find out why and never stop finding
out why. With a Rabbi, with Torah, with Talmud, with yourself.

>>
>>Thanks,
>>Dima
>
>Even when I disagree with you, I will certainly agree that you're polite.  ;)
>
>			. . .Alexandra
>

Thank you. Although, I have to admit that this statement made me laugh.
Why? Do you know just how many people responded to me about certain
topics from this net and said that I insult people, I am rode, I am
this, I am that. And how dare I write this... Well, to tell you the truth,
if the person writing the message is Jewish then I get really sad. And
it is sad. Espacially, to a person like me that saw just how difficult
it is to remain a Jew, and then I get people saying to me that I
insulted them by saying something they basically made their point look
rediculous. (Of course, you understand that they say the same thing a
little bit differently.) But the thing is I am trying to be polite. It
is hard when people respond like you have probably seen. That's why I
decided not to respond to those messages that are too offensive and I
did state so and will state this again: If you want my response, then
don't write messages that are really insulting, if you don't want my
response then things work out by themselves, that is you won't get it
anyway. I am not here to fight with anybody, moreover to fight with
Jews. I have done enough fighting with goyim in my life. I take time to
write to this newsgroup only because I hope to get you to see a little
deeper then you do, or that I think you do. It is not your fault that
you did not have the teachers that I had and that helped me with the
same thing. (I am, perhaps, not the greatest teacher in the world. :=JUST
KIDDING! I am not trying to teach anybody.) 

Anyway, you probably got more then you expected for your reply. I am
sorry, I just got really into this. And I don't remember the name of a
person that singled out my signature file that quotes a Talmud passage
that says: "A word is worth one coin, silence is worth two", and said
something like this in reply to a pretty long post of main: Look at this
guy contradicting himself. Here he writes a long post and then says that
silence is more valuable then words. Of course , he put it in a more
unsensible way then I did here. Actually, if I knew your name, dear
fellow, I would not say it anyway, but let say something. Your reply to
me besides being insulting showed that you completely misunderstand this
passage. If you want to know what it means, go to a Rabbi, but don't
show to everybody that all you can do to prove my point wrong is to make
fun of me using a passage that you don't even nearly understand.


Anyway, I want to thank you for you reply.
And since Shabbath has just ended I want to wish you and everybody else
Shavua Tov.

Sholom,
Dima
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
   khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio, USA)
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