From: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RR vs. AA, or RR + A
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:27:00 GMT
Reply-To: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer)
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis


RC>>You know, what I enjoy about this group is the opportunity to find out
RC>>about how other people get better.  What I don't enjoy about this
RC>>group is the debates about how other people _ought_to_ get better.

RC> "Rational Recovery Systems views AA as a victim of its own success --
RC> thrust into roles in our society that it is neither designed for, nor
RC> able to fulfill.... In its simplest, *communal* form, AA is, as its
RC> members say, 'wonderful.'  But when AA comes to us in its
RC> *institutional* form, enforced by the military, the courts, and social
RC> welfare agencies, and sets the agenda for practically every treatment
RC> program in America, it is intolerable.

RC> matter of survival.  In our discussion of the 12 steps, we can see
RC> that Rational Recovery is not so much another creed, or set of
RC> prescribed beliefs, but rather a way of thinking, or reasoning, as
RC> opposed to believing.  For people starting out on the road to
RC> recovery, there are choices to be made, and it is best that they be
RC> made as early as possible.

      Richard,
              You are absolutely correct in my opinion, AA is a "Victom"
of its own sucess. Only 10 years ago when I first entered AA (not when I
got CLEAN & DRY), people had to be dragged in kicking & screeming or
where so depresses & desperate they no longer cared.  Most people back
then upon arrival to a meeting came from the nut house or the rehab or
the jail or the gutter. In short they where not of sound mind and not
capable of RATIONAL thaught, decision or RECOVERY. Today things ARE
different. The people entering AA are better dressed, better educated,
younger, and capable of very rational thinking. These people have
serious decisions to make. They know they are in trouble, they don't
know how to get out of it, they know they need help but there stuck in
a position that will not let them see the primary symptoms of the
disease of (ANY)ISM - Delusion & Denial... In short they know too much.
Pride and a screwed up concept of God will not let them accept the fact
that they can not drink or drug in a recreational manner (safely-they
are powerless -- there lives are unmanagable, or quickly becoming so).
I feel truely sorry for these people, I know there pain because I have
been there. I was fortunate, I went all the way to the bottom, not
just emotionally. I lost everything - my pride, my job, my home,
my belongings, my spirit, my health and nearly my life. I have no
illusions, delusions or denials, and I just can't afford this kind of
pride. I wish those people in RR all the best, If they can figure this
out in a rational manner - more power to them. If I can help I am not
heard to find I will be here. Not all of us are Bible thumpers either,
I claim no religion in particular. Yet, I am not uncomfortable in either
a Church or Synagoge (I rarely attend either). I am no longer
unconfortable with the god thing, as my god concept is no longer what it
was many yeas ago. I cannot afford the GUILT or the FEAR impressed upon
us by organized religion (MAN). Personally I am comfortable with AA, NA
or any A. It no longer matters to me what you call it. But, I got off
the track AA is the victom, and the primary casualty is the new-commer.
This poor man/woman (person) is usually set upon by 15 recovering
unbalanced people as soon as he is spotted for what he/she is. All 15
got the method for this poor persons recovery and all 15 aint got 4
years sober added up. Supply and Demand. Getting sober is the in thing
now and sponsors with real time are in short supply. Not that they are
not alot of people with time, its just that any one who has time is no
longer interested in dealing with 40 unbalanced recovering alcoholics &
addics so they run like hell (I am guilty here too), they have lives to
lead and newcommers are Very draining. It is so much easier to sit at
this keyboard. Hell, I live in manhattan and the real old timers (15
20,25 &30 years) are hadly seen at a meeting any more. I see them in the
street all the time and talk to them. They make an occasional meeting
some where quiet and then run like hell. The yuppies have taken over AA
and they gonna run it like the dam stock exchange, by the numbers.
    I figure in the long run it will all work out in the wash.
It will just take time. AA will survive - it is too strong not too.
People will come & go, todays newcommers that makeit will get some
balance. They will stop being so hard on themselves and everybody else.
All will be well.                     Good Luck
                                       BAB
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . An Elephant Is Just A Mouse Built To Gov't Specs!