HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: munck@stars.reston.unisys.com (Robert G. Munck)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Do you use SADT ?
Keywords: SADT
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:06:57 GMT
Reply-To: munck@stars.reston.unisys.com
Organization: DARPA STARS/NATO PCIS

In article <1992Aug14.032041.16032@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, johnson@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ralph Johnson) writes:
> A decade or so ago I spent several months trying to figure out SADT,
> and decided that the documents that were supposed to describe it didn't.
> Where does one go to learn it?

SofTech kept SADT proprietary for many years, possibly to its overall
detriment, but they were a small company and needed to recoup as much
of their investment as possible.  They have now stated, though I don't
know if this is in any sense "official," that SADT is in the public
domain.

I assume that the documents you're refering to were not the SofTech
Author's Guide or Author's Course, but rather the published papers.
Most of them were written by the Father of SADT, Doug Ross.  While he
is definitely a genius of the first water, Doug's writings are sometimes
a tad difficult to follow.  There is now an SADT textbook:

SADT: Structured Analysis and Design Technique,
David A. Marca (DEC) and Clement L. McGowan (MITRE),
402 pages
ISBN 0-07-040235-3
QA76.9.S84M36 1987
Copyright 1988 by McGraw-Hill, Inc.

that is extremely clear and understandable.  There are also a number
of vendors who offer courses, some better than others, and tools
for drawing SADT diagrams and doing projects.


>  Also, if it is so wonderful, why don't more people use it?

They are beginning to.

Doing SADT is in many ways similar to writing technical specifications.
As with writing English, everyone thinks they can do it but only a few
are capable of doing it well.  Also, some of the vendor's courses teach
only the "grammar" of the SADT diagram, omitting the extensive mechanisms
for creating good diagrams and improving them.  The result is that there
is a lot of _bad_ SADT done.

Strangly enough, bad SADT is quite often better than no SADT at all, so
its popularity is growing.

-- 
Bob Munck
From: greg@thirdi.uucp (Greg Holmberg)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: On-line Problem Tracking
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:53:05 GMT
Reply-To: greg@thirdi.UUCP (Greg Holmberg)
Organization: Third Eye Software, Menlo Park, CA

In article <Bt5Gq9.3AF@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>
mwyllie@at4cad.intel.com (Mary Wyllie) writes:
>Some time ago, in a previous job, I used a tool called 'bugsub' as an on-line
>problem tracking tool.  The tool seemed reasonable for our needs, but I don't 
>have any idea where it came from.  Anyone familiar with this tool?  Where can
>I get it, or are there other tools out there that I should be looking at 
>first?

Ask Silicon Graphics about their "Tracker" product.
From: martinc@grover.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Terms [Was: What is Software Engineering]
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:27:29 GMT
Organization: UNC Department of Computer Science
In-reply-to: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se's message of 13 Aug 92 16:52:35 GMT

Johnny --

Here's a quick quiz (with, perhaps, an embedded clue):

what is the difference between a chemist and a chemical engineer?
--
Charles R. Martin/(Charlie)/martinc@cs.unc.edu/(ne crm@cs.duke.edu) 
O/Dept. of Computer Science/CB #3175 UNC-CH/Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3175
H/3611 University Dr #13M/Durham, NC 27707/(919) 419 1754
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am he who walks the States with a barb'd tongue, questioning every
one I meet,/Who are you that wanted only to be told what you knew
before?/ Who are you that wanted only a book to join you in your
nonsense?"  _Leaves of Grass_ xxiii.4.
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us
Subject: Re: What is Software Engineering
Organization: :
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:30:37 GMT

In article <Bt8uwH.LML@newcastle.ac.uk>, A.J.C.Blyth@newcastle.ac.uk (Andrew J C Blyth) writes:
 
> This situation is changeing as sofware engineers are being held accountable by
> law for the software that they write. In addition companies are impossing 
> firm rules about who pays for what if the software does not work. The day is
> comeing when Software Engineers will have to carry insurance and have
> professional status similar to the Doctors in the US today.

I'd prefer a status equivalent to other Professional Engineers.  There
exists a PE licensure system in every state of the US, and I assume that
other developed nations have them as well.  Medical doctors in the US
operate under a Truly Horrible and Litigatious malpractice system; so
far engineers have only had a small taste of this.

This probably implies that Software Engineers will have to master the
basic physical sciences and their analytic techniques.  It also implies
that other engineers will have to learn the basics of `software theory.'

I suspect this should include E/R modelling, recursive structures and
control, possibly DFDs, basic O(N) analysis, and basic testing and
software management techniques.  It should NOT include the FORTRAN codes
that were on the EIT (Engineer-In-Training) exam that I took in 1980.
Advanced subjects on that exam for SE's _should_ include data
normalization, scheduling, imperative languages, functional languages,
OO, and alternates among such areas as game theory, concurrency, etc.
(What about the social aspects of project requirements analysis?)

Should the material science/thermodynamics sections have an alternate
for software engineers?  Queueing theory, perhaps?
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: uyeno@meetng.enet.dec.com (Alice Uyeno)
Subject: Re: CADRE TEAMwork
Reply-To: uyeno@meetng.enet.dec.com (Alice Uyeno)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:46:00 GMT


Hi,

I have used Cadre Teamwork on a VMS platform.  I guess it is one of the better CASE tools around; I have used a few.  I like the fact that it supports the Hatley-Pirbhai real-time extensions rather than the Ward-Mellor extensions.  Its documentation tools and printing capabilities do leave something to be desired.  For both those situations, I ended up writing programs to do what I needed done. I also heard from my system administrator that installations were a pain.  The Cadre Hotline is pretty helpful th











ough at times their VMS support was lacking.  I know some people who will stand by Cadre Teamwork; personally, I haven't decided.....like I said, it's one of the better ones around.....I think it's my initial experience with Teamwork which makes me hesitate.....I faced many times that my system crashed, losing hours of work, during those times when we were figuring out the correct configuration for Teamwork.  Anyways, that's my 2 cents worth.  Maybe it works better on UNIX workstations.

Hmm....just realized that you asked about its features, etc.  Its printing capabilities can be set up for VAX Document, Interleaf and a few others.  What bothered me about the printing was that each object had to be printed as a separate file....can you picture printing a large data dictionary with each entry being a single file!!!  Teamwork does Structured Analysis (Yourdon with Hatley-Pirbhai extensions) and Structured Design.  They also have reverse engineering tools for C and Ada.  You get structure ch











arts from your code.  They have a "simulation" tool, which I don't know anything about.  I have only worked with their structured analysis tool.  I liked the fact that you could document within the tool any notes you wanted to at any level DFD.  For example, I could write an overview for any DFD I wanted and have it associated with that DFD.  Anything else, you might want to know?


		Alice Uyeno
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: peterc@suite.sw.oz.au.sw.oz.au (Peter Chubb,x114,6982322,3982735)
Subject: Re: What is Software Engineering? A sample definition
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 23:07:54 GMT
Originator: peterc@suite.sw.oz.au

In my opionion (for what it's worth) a software engineer is someone
who works at more than one level: not only does such a person
design/implement/manage/maintain/etc software, s/he studies the
*process* by which software is produced, implemented, maintained,
etc., with the aim of improving it next time around.  Thus a software
engineer is a meta-designer of software: the person who designs the
methodologies for the programmers to follow.

(This matches my previuous experience as an electrical engineer: the
engineers decided what to do to build the power station, and told the
draughtsmen, who translated that into drawings the contractors could
understand... along with written instructions as to how to build or
operate the powerstation.  We chose which methodologies to use,
modified them, then told the contractors to use them, and inspected
the plant as it was being built to ensure they got it right.  Often
they didn't, and we'd have to invent appropriate remedial methods)

			Regards,

				- Peter Chubb

Softway Pty Ltd, P.O. Box 305, Strawberry Hills, NSW 2012, AUSTRALIA
Phone: +61 2 698 2322;       Fax: +61 2 699 9174;     Telex: AA27987
Internet: peterc@softway.oz.au	   UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!peterc
From: hayes@valkris.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: CADRE TEAMwork
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:44:46 GMT
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Company, EDSG

In article <1992Aug13.134600.18032@ryn.mro4.dec.com> uyeno@meetng.enet.dec.com (Alice Uyeno) writes:
>I have used Cadre Teamwork on a VMS platform.  I guess it is one of the better
>CASE tools around; I have used a few.  I like the fact that it supports the
>Hatley-Pirbhai real-time extensions rather than the Ward-Mellor extensions. 

[...followed by complaint after complaint after complaint after...]

That about sums it up.  I've had it crash on me too on VMS.  Don't open
too many windows or you'll run out of memory and go boom!  I joke that
it is a CASE tool that wasn't developed using the methodologies it
supports.

I've becoming reasonable adept at it: Keep the number of windows opened
to minimum.  Be sure to save often.  And when you get frustrated with
the
editor I try to remeber "its not a text editor, its a CASE tool :^)"
Thank goodness you can have it run your own editors (YES, IM GOING TO
USE EMACS WHEN I HAVE TIME TO INSTALL IT).

I still haven't figured out why it doesn't support flow splitting.  But
then again, there is no Hately-Pirbahi support...only Hately!

well, that's my beef.  I'm happy that I have a tool.


  

-- 
| Brian Hayes		| "One person's requirement is another	|
| (310) 616-5129	|  person's design." - I.A.Pirbahi	|
| hayes@hac2arpa.hac.com| <standard disclaimer here>		|
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: lms@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Max Stern 310-524-6152)
Subject: Re: Most Widely Used Language?
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:18:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.223203.17804@oracle.pnl.gov> d3g349@gilligan.pnl.gov writes:
>A co-worker of mine made an interesting statement. He said that Cobol is the 
>most widely used language today. I said that it was probably due to vast 
>number of older systems in existance (i.e. many developers are using it for
>maintenance). His response was that he thought it was the most widely used
>language for new developement as well. 
>
>I find this pretty hard to believe. Does anyone have stats on the current
>usage of languages?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Peter Berard
>Battelle, Pacific Northwest Lab.


I hope that the answer to this question will include a definition of
its terms.  I believe it is true that COMMERCIAL applications being
developed today, COBOL is still the most widely used.  I also believe
that FORTRAN is the most widely used language of all time and is still
in wide (but diminishing) use today.

I think if "widely used" is defined in terms of number of users, then
FORTRAN wins.  If in terms of lines of code, COBOL wins (of course!!!
(:>)
-- 

 |\/|  /_\  \/
 |  | /   \ /\                      Max.Stern@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: einkauf@mitre.org (Michael Einkauf)
Subject: LBMS Project Engineer
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:34:49 GMT

My department recently began using Project Engineer v1.1a, a product of 
Learmonth & Burchett Management Systems, Inc., to support the planning and 
implementation of software engineering projects.  Basically, this product 
permits the user to define a work breakdown structure (WBS) based on the type of 
development life cycle appropriate for the system being developed.

I am currently developing a WBS appropriate for an incremental (or phased 
implementation) life cycle so I want multiple design and implementation 
stages, one for each planned increment.

Project Engineer is taking an unexpectedly long time to perform the copy, 
cut and paste operations needed to produce the WBS I want.  The copy 
operation alone is taking on the order of 20-25 minutes to finish.  
Another machine in one of our Washington offices is taking on the order of 
80 minutes to do the same operation.  Admittedly there is quite a lot of 
data being moved around and calculations performed in the course of the 
copying, but the execution time still seems too slow by an order of 
magnitude.

In case someone thinks the configuration might be affecting performance, 
here is my configuration.  I have the product running on a PS/2 Model 70 
386 with 8 Mb extended memory and 640K conventional.  I am using Windows 
3.1 running under DOS 4.0.

I have been receiving a number of General Protection Faults when 
performing these operations in Project Engineer.  These error messages 
point to a DLL module that is part of Project Engineer.  I'm not familiar 
with General Protection Faults.  What are they and what do these messages 
tell me about my system?  (I am also seeing a lot of Memory Parity Errors 
on my system when I use MS Project as the source and target for some 
import and export operations from Project Engineer.  I am having some 
technicians check for problems with SIMMs, loose sockets, and the DMA 
controller to reduce the likelihood of hardware problems contributing to 
the performance problems.)

Does anyone out there have experience with this product?  Can anyone 
suggest ideas about the source of the problem or what I can do to 
ameliorate the problem?

Thanks!

---------------------------------------------------------
Michael Einkauf               |  The MITRE Corporation    
Member of the Technical Staff |  Mail Stop B090               
Corporate Information Systems |  202 Burlington Rd.                    
    Development               |  Bedford, MA  01730-1420
---------------------------------------------------------
From: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se (Johnny Schmittou EXU-T-EEG x7887 Dallas Texas USA)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: What is Software Engineering
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:56:17 GMT
Reply-To: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

Somewhere in space and time, George X. Kambic wrote:

I personally prefer the Monty Python "Confuse-a-cat" model for planning
purposes.  You never get any questions about where you are at.

===

OK, I gotta know.  What's the "confuse-a-cat" model?  It's gotta be good
if it's from Monty Python.  Maybe I can use it on my next project...

___________________________________________________________________________
Internet....: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se | "Everything I say is the absolute
Real life...: Johnny Schmittou        |  Gospel...  Nah, just kidding."
Virtual life: Q-man   ---<<<I'd rather be drumming.>>>--- Dallas, Texas USA
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: kummer@possum.den.mmc.com (Jim Kummer)
Subject: Re: sofware reuse
Keywords: software, reuse
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group, Denver
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:48:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.180254.2411@news.acns.nwu.edu> edy@andersen.com (Edy Liongosari) writes:
>
>Does anybody know about an electronic news letter or 
>news group regarding software reuse?
>If you do, would you please let me know how to subscribe?
>Thanks.
>

I do not know of any _electronic_ newsletter or newsgroup.  There is 
a fair amount of discussion on reuse in 'comp.software-eng'.  Also, 
there is a hardcopy newsletter (which, for all I know, could be 
available in electronic form) from the "Reuse Working Group".  Send 
inquiries to:
.  Reuse Working Group Newsletter
.  c/o EVB Software Engineering Inc.
.  5303 Spectrum Drive, Suite F
.  Fredrick, MD 21701
The chairman of the Reuse Working Group may be contacted by e-mail:  
Dennis M. Ahern, 'dahern@wsmr-simtel20.army.mil'.


-- 
 
-- Regards ----- Jim Kummer ----- Martin Marietta Corporation --
----- kummer@pogo.den.mmc.com --- Astronautics Group ----------- 
(standard disclaimer applies) => "I speak for nobody but me"
From: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se (Johnny Schmittou EXUTEEG x7887 Dallas Texas USA)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Terms [Was: What is Software Engineering]
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:52:35 GMT
Reply-To: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.


I always liked the term "computer scientist" over the term "software
engineer".  If people get computer science degrees (what I received),
why not call those people computer scientists?  Perhaps when colleges
have software engineering degrees (and probably some colleges already
have this) a person who earns this degree may be rightfully called
a software engineer.

In the 3 companies for which I've worked, my titles thus far have been:

1) Software Design Engineer
2) Software Engineer/Member of Technical Staff (I always thought MTS was
                                                a nice term)
3) Senior Engineer

My two cents...
___________________________________________________________________________
Internet....: exujsch@exu.ericsson.se | "Everything I say is the absolute
Real life...: Johnny Schmittou        |  Gospel...  Nah, just kidding."
Virtual life: Q-man   ---<<<I'd rather be drumming.>>>--- Dallas, Texas USA
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: cupak@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (John J Cupak Jr CCP)
Subject: Wanted: LOC Counters for SQL, UIL, TPS, SCAN 
Keywords: Line of Code Counters
Reply-To: cupak@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (John J Cupak Jr CCP)
Organization: Lockheed Sanders, Inc.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 16:46:49 GMT


Are there any public-domain tools for counting "lines of code" (preferably
under VAX/VMS) for the following application languages:

     SQL  (Query Language)
     UIL  (GUI Interface)
     TPU  (DEC VAX LSEDIT Templates, etc.)
     SCAN (DEC VAX SCAN Tool)


Thanks.
--
John J. Cupak, Jr., CCP       Lockheed DECNet: MERVAX::CUPAK
Lockheed Sanders, Inc.        Internet       : cupak@rapnet.sanders.LOCKHEED.COM
144 DW Highway / MER24-1K23   CompuServe     : 72411,3176 
Nashua, NH 03061-0868         Telephone      : (603) 885-5816     FAX: 885-6081
From: hayes%valkris@hac2arpa.hac.com (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: CDIF summary
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:58:42 GMT
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Company, EDSG
Originator: hayes@valkris


CDIF Summary:

CDIF can be obtained from EIA for $250, 25% discount to EIA members.

Contact: Patti Rusher (EIA) 202-457-4962
or 
	EIA
	Attn: Publication Sales Department
	2001 Pennsylvania Ave NW
	Washington DC, 20006

CDIF is the CASE [electronic] interchange format.

---
Thanks to email responses from:
	Iain Morison, David Switft, Peter Fenelon.

-- 
| Brian Hayes		| "One person's requirement is another	|
| (310) 616-5129	|  person's design." - I.A.Pirbahi	|
| hayes@hac2arpa.hac.com| <standard disclaimer here>		|
From: anna@cis.njit.edu (anna leung)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: editors for the book Entity-relationship approach to SW
Date: 20 Aug 92 05:52:30 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology


Does any one know the names of the editors for the book
Entity-Relationship approach to Software Engineering 

the book was published by Amsterdam, the Netherlands North-Holland
in 1983.



thank you.
-- anna
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Subject: Re: What is Software Engineering
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:33:39 GMT

musa@cmptrc.lonestar.org (Jeff Musa) writes:

>Maintenace and development are very distinct.  Maintenance is the effort 
>spent enhancing a product to meet the needs of customers and fixing bugs in
>an already released product.  These included data corruption, run-time errors
>implementing new controls, etc...  Development (the development that the     
>figures are based on) is the act of creating a new product to then be put
>into the maintenance phase.  Classic software engineering stipulates a life
>cycle of software that reflects a development phase, maintenance, and
>demise. 

And classical geography taught that the Earth was flat.

I would argue with your definitions  -  to me, maintenance involves
current functionality, development involves new functionality.  Often a
given piece of work will involve both.  Certainly, if you consider what
I call "development" as "perfective maintenance" (I've forgotten who
posted that, but thanks) then yes, it's "maintenance", but it's a
different sort of maintenance from the "bug-fix" type.

>Those that create hack programs, force maintenance programmers
>to write hack fixes and these (one on top of another) cause more time to 
>be spent figuring out and rewritting code just to fix or enhance.

In my environment those who create the systems can expect to maintain
and develop them, usually working directly with the users.  Self-interest
is a powerful incentive to do it right.

>An engineered approach is more likely to be delivered on time, meet the 
>customers needs, be more easily maintainable/enhanceable, and very probably
>more robust due to the extensive write-ups and prototyping required before
>starting a truly engineered software project.

And some projects are so well and thoroughly "engineered" that they are
obsolete before they are delivered;  perhaps the best example here in 
Australia was the Public Service's "Mandata" system.  I'm talking
about custom information systems here, not off-the-shelf products or
even large transaction-oriented systems, both of which present different
problems.  In my experience the most important part of prototyping is
to get the users working with the system, hence the need to deliver a
core system which in turn provides them with some benefit.  As they use
it, they provide the feedback to drive the development, and (again, in
my experience) this often opens up lines of development that were not
originally foreseen.

This, to my mind, brings up the major difference between software
engineering and the sort of engineering that results in bridges, cars
or TVs  -  that we are designing a product which will be developed
while it is in use, whereas in other forms of engineering it is the
replacement product which is being developed.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
Computer Centre, Australian Defence Force Academy
From: daves@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Dave Straker)
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
Subject: Re: Re: Boehm reference- here it is
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:56:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard ISG-SBU-PWD, UK.

The spiral paper is also in the book:

Barry W. Boehm, "Software Risk Management", IEEE computer society press, '89

Dave Straker            Pinewood Information Systems Division (PWD not PISD)
(}-8]                   HPDESK: David Straker/HP1600/01
#define opinions mine   Unix:   daves@hpopd.pwd.hp.com