HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: black quarter horse
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:53:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ


In Article 8255 sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:

>According the the really good information that Tracy from Arizona sent me a
>while back, a black horse with a brown muzzle is really genetically black
>with an extra gene that causes the brown around the muzzle.

>Hope this helps.

>Sue

	(Thanks for the plug, Sue.)  The gene she is referring to is
called the Pangare gene (pronounced pan-ga-ray) and is said to modify
black by lightening the hair on the sides of the muzzle, over the eyes,
in the flanks and on the insides of the legs to brown.  It does the 
same with all other colors as well but is not so obvious.  It causes black
to become seal brown, chestnut to become blond sorrel, bay becomes a bay
with a lighter muzzle and flanks.  
	It is very difficult to tell dark mahogany bay from seal brown and
I am not sure the difference is really worth the trouble of figuring out.
I know because I have a friend who has a seal brown QH mare from whom she 
has gotten 3 seal brown foals, 1 copper dun, and finally, we think, 1
mahogany bay filly.  But you could almost toss a coin to name the color
it's that close.

				Tracy and everybody
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: Re: huntseat hand position
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:44:29 GMT

Kitty writes:

>to the horse.  hew canter is a stretching for weard gate, rahter than a


I thought this was some kind of weird Scottish term or
something. But now I get it.

-gwyn
From: rogers@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Catherine Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Drivers encounter loose horses - CO2 pistol?
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:28:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <1992Aug19.182138.14727@cube.handheld.com> vls@cube.handheld.com (Vern Stant) writes:
>> Just as we approached the highway, a frisky pinto mare and a 
>> dusky pony came bounding across the yard of the house...
>> KICKED MY MARE.  Meanwhile the pony was kicking my wife's mare.
>
(stuff deleted)
>I personally feel helpless in this situation and bought a CO2
>pistol. It makes more noise than I thought it would so I guess
>I'll have to desensitize George, but I gotta do something. I
>love horses and dogs but... Any thoughts?


As a bicyclist in Indiana where leash laws are never obeyed outside
the city I've had similar problems.  When I rode horses in 
Pennsylvania this was never such a problem.  Many people have
recommended attaching a can of mace to the handlebars of my bike.
It will not harm the animal permanently, but the animal will certainly
no longer be interested in attacking you (or your horse) AND it may
help others in the future.  Dogs, as Pavlov has shown, are great at
classical conditioning.  This will be one very bad experience to
associate with chasing things in the road and perhaps the dangerous
animal will then think twice before chasing something else in the
road.  Of course this strategy is a lot more risky with a horse or 
horses around.  You'd have to be REALLY sure the horses won't get
any in THEIR eyes.  I'm not sure i'd want to do it on horseback 
except as a last resort but I thought someone out there might have
an idea along the same lines but less risky.

One thing to remember is never to turn your back on the approaching
dog.  You can very often face them down.  While biking I have found 
that most of the time the dog will stop chasing me if I turn around
and look at it and loudly and sternly and in my deepest voice say:
"Go home!!!!".   Very often they turn around and do just that or at
least they will often stop chasing you.  If you run away they will
delight in chasing you.  It's unfortunate that dogs and horses have
complementary psyches  -- one a natural predator (chase instinct) and
the other natural prey (run away instinct) -- with poor old homo
sapiens stuck in the middle (or on top) ;-)  . Carrying a hunting whip
to crack at the dogs might be a good solution -- that is if you can
manage to crack it that is -- it's an acquired skill but does seem 
effective for some dogs anyhow (on the hunt field!)  Anyway sorry to
get so long winded.  The point is to stay calm and try not to act
like prey. ;)

cathy rogers
indiana university
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administr., Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:36:46 -0400 
From: Jean Andrews <ja23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: First Horse

I just purchased a 1 1/2 registered quarter horse, Touch of Elegance,
Ellie for short, for my daughter.   She has a very bad habit of
rearing and we have started using the chain around her upper nose
attached to the lead rope.  Is there any other options available.  I
realize we will have a lot of work to do with her, but she really is
spoiled and also kicks alot.  I got it in the stomach the other night
after she had reared at the sight of the killer wheelbarrow and then 
turned and kicked me (I don't think she was aiming for me, just a
lucky shot).  Thanks in advance.
From: donnag@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Donna Griffiths)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Help with Yearling ?
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:36:31 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

Hmm, I wonder about lunging a yearling in circles...

I think it might be wise to  reconsider  the  lunging  in a circle,  as
earlier  posts have pointed out, stress on young  horses can  influence
future  soundness.  I have  had  many  yearlings  and  never  has a vet
recommended  lunging due to the stress it puts on their knees.  Perhaps
he meant "free" lunging as in a large  rectangular pen or pasture area?

Even short periods of lunging may cause problems.

Another way to get some exercise  would be ponying the yearling from an
older  experienced  horse.  I have had great results with this since it
also gets the  little  one used to the  oddities  of the trail  without
having  to deal  with a human on its back and the plus of having a calm
buddy along.

Cherry Hill has some excellent books in local bookstores, such as
"The Formative Years" and others.

my 2 cents,

Donna
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: Re: hunt seat equitation
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:46:38 GMT

>  are at or past the widest point of the barrel.  Taking an
>  instructor literally and posting "from the lower leg" is a
>  physical absurdity.  You always post "from the stirrup"--it's just
>  which part(s) of your leg you use to keep yourself steady and close
>  to your horse.

I don't know if I agree with this. Depending upon the size of the
horse's barrel, if it "takes up your leg" well, it is fairly easy to
get the feeling of wrapping your entire leg around the horse and
getting strength from your lower leg as well as your thigh.  If I
tried to post without stirrups WITHOUT my lower leg, I think I'd
poop out within seconds.  The whole debate is...whether or not
you're supposed to grip with the knees or with the whole leg?  Yes,
there are many styles.  The Europeans use an "older" style, and at
the present, they are whipping our little booties in international
competition.  It just shows that many styles work.  However, if you
                                             ****
are competing in "equitation" divisions in the U.S., you have to do
it the way that is accepted as giving the best results.  I mean
control and technique-wise, not necessarily "do whatever it takes to
win."

>There are fashions in all things, instructors all have their own
>ways of communicating, and you have to approach what feels good and
>right and secure for you and not worry so much about mechanical
>corrections to please an instructor.  (Getting video-taped is a
>great way to see whether >you look "close enough" or just plain
>bad.) Linda Merims

Well put. Oh, it occured to me too, that you could ASK YOUR
INSTRUCTOR why this has changed. He/she may be able to explain in a
way that makes sense and gives you more faith in the technique.

-gwyn.gordon@forsythe.stanford.edu
From: gale@chrysos.Eng.Sun.COM (Gale Snow)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: leg position, hunt seat
Date: 18 Aug 1992 00:43:29 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: chrysos


just to add to kitty's descriptions of a good riding position...

i audited a clinic given by mary wanless last year.  her books are *very*
good too.  anyway she emphasizes stillness in the riders position.  but note
that the rider is hardly still, but you must strive for stillness *relative
to the horse's motion*.  this is where the relaxation comes in.  do not lock
the ankle, knee, hip, elbow, shoulder joints, otherwise you will be unable
to go with the horse's motion.  switch to a right-brain mode of thinking to
check on the stillness of your body relative to the horse.  i highly recommend
ms. wanless' book "the natural rider" for more of her tips on riding.

gale snow
c'est jolie and jaseroque

Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: kcumming@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (kcumming)
Subject: huntseat hand position
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:27:31 GMT

I like a hand position whre the thumbs are up and slightly turned in
towards each other.  The hands should be only a few inches apart and
they should be slightly above the wither just in front of the pommel
(we're talking flat riding here - fences changes some things).  On some
horses i like a hand position on either side of the wither rather than
above (on some horses this lower hand set is needed to encourage a more
rounded. level head carriage.)  I want the wrist straight and flat
without being rigid.  I want the elbows to have almost a 90 degree bend
and to be in close to the sides.  Th elbows (and shoulders too) should
be very relaxed and elastic - this is where your hand motion comes from.
It should not come from the wrist and it should not involve the whole
body.  I do not like to see someone bending the wrists to do half halts,
etc.  I think itlooks and is sloppy and ineffective.  For soft half
halts, simple squeeze the reins as if you were squeezing out a sponge.
For stronger half halts, and other rein aids - it should come from the
elbow.  I much prefer bringing my hand back a few inches and holding for
a secong or two for a strong half halt rather than contorting the wrist.
I feel you get a more effective and more natural half halt.  Of course
you must be careful you aren't snatching the horse - this movement
through the elbow should be a smooth taking hold, holding, then
relaeasing in rythm with the horse -very natural.

When you canter, to have good hands at a canter, you must 'ossilate'
with your hands.  Your hands cannot be truly 'still' when you are
cantering.  In reality, 'still' hands are those that are moving in rythm
to the horse.  hew canter is a stretching for weard gate, rahter than a
more up and down like the trot.  The horse is actually reaching forward
at each stride.  If your hands don't follow him forward (ie. you set
your hands by locking your elbows at whatever  angle), then he will hit
that bit at each stride like he was hitting a wall.  I use the term
opening and closing your elbows to follow the horse.  Your hands look
still becasue you are following the horses motion.  hose that have stiff
elbows end up hitting their horse in the mouth on every stride (note
that this doesnot mean that your horse is throwing his head on every
stride, even if he's being very tolerant of poor hands and not jerking
his head, this doens't mean he's not being hit in the mouth.)  Also, on
a very strong, forward horse, locking your elbows will cause your whole
body to be pulled up and down out of the saddle with each stride.

Well, this is getting pretty long.  Hope it's fairly clear.  

Kitty Cummings
Kit-Mar Appaloosas
Ritter Hof German Shepherds
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Hunt Seat Hand position
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:31:35 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <1992Aug17.183147.8917@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, paw@coos.dartmouth.edu (Pat Wilson) writes:
> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> 
> 
>>I need some assistance from some of you 'hunt seat' people out there.
> 
>>I was always told by my instructors that the proper position for the
>>hands is with the wrist straight, having a straight line through forearm,
>>wrist, hands, reins to the horses mouth.  The hand is to be with thumb
>>on top, not 'cocked' or bent.   Currently, lots of the people around here
>>are showing in hunt classes with their hands in the 'doggie paw' position,
>>very low on the withers.  These people seem to be winning.  Since I am
>>helping my girl friend's daughters with their riding, I was telling them
>>to ride the way I have been trained.  Is this just a local thing?  Should
>>I change my technique?
> 
> I haven't heard that "piano hands" (which is what I _think_ you're 
> talking about here - knuckles up?) are in vogue in equitation circles -
> as far as I know, "thumbs up, fingers closed, straight line from elbow
> to mouth" is still correct.  There may be other reasons that these kids
> are winning, overriding their hand position, and it _does_ depend on
> whether this is "hunter on the flat" or "equitation" - as I'm sure you
> know, as long as the horse looks good in the flat (vs. equitation) classes,
> pretty much anything the rider does is ok (as long as it's not distracting).
> 

Yes, piano hands fits the description.  Over all these riders look fairly
correct, just the hands that look very bad.  I was sitting with a dressage/
hunt trainer and she was complaining as much as I was about it.  She says
it comes from lots of use of draw reins on QH showing.  A very bad habit
to pick up!

> Maybe the judges are looking more at heels (always _my_ bane), legs, and
> seat?  What level riders are we talking about here?

This is at the local open/4H club shows, so these are NOT class A riders.
I don't expect my kids to win yet, they are far from being good enough to
do more than get an occasional fifth or fourth.   But I hope the judges are
saying something to these kids about proper hand position.
(At this level the judge usually tells the kids why they are being marked
down in a class.)

Sue

> 
> Pat
> --
> Pat Wilson
> Systems Manager, Project NORTHSTAR
> paw@northstar.dartmouth.edu
From: deniseo@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Denise O'Connor)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:42:23 GMT
Subject: Re: synthetic saddles
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian

 I have been riding in a Wintec Pro All Purpose saddle.  I
 purchased it because I just jumped into horses and needed
 tack immediately.  I looked at alot of saddles used and new,
 I didn't know anything and had to ask all over for advice.
 The advice I received was all over the board, nothing very
 consistant, I became quite confused and decided that I needed
 more time to learn about saddles.  I decided to purchase a
 Wintec because they were cheap, they fit my arab well, and they
 felt comfortable to me.  I decided I would ride in it til
 I figured out leather saddles.  
 
 It has been three years now. I have ridden in it 4-5 days a week
 for the last three years. It shows no wear other than slight rub
 marks where my calves rest, which brush up with a stiff brush.
 All in all it looks very new, I have vacuumed it 3 times and brushed
 the dust off a few times, and rinsed salt(ocean) water off several times.
 It takes minimal care and I ride through lots of water, splashing
 mud, salt water, sand, and lots of dust and it still looks very good.
 I also work full time so it is important to eliminate as much busy
 work as I can so I have more time to ride.

 It doesn't allow you to slide as much as slick leather seats do.
 It is easier to grip with your inner legs when jumping (type of mat'l) 
 It has not broken down at all and still fits my arab.
 
 I have since purchased a Keiffer Dressage saddle, however for ease I 
 use the Wintec most of the time.  I keep trying out different saddles
 but my current set up is working out just fine.
 In the winter time after riding in the rain I just bring it 
 in the house to dry.   

 One main problem with the synthetics is getting them repaired.  Our
 Rottie pup chewed a hole in the saddle, there were only two places
 in the US who would repair them, I sent mine to the one in Oaklahoma,
 however it was a lousy repair job, they didn't even restuff it evenly.
 I took it a part and repaired it myself hand sewing it, most people can
 not see the repair.
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: mechanical hackamores
Date: 15 Aug 92 10:00:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ


In Article 8240 in rec.equestrian: AS.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu 
	(Gwyn Gordon) writes:

>>I applaud the communication comment.  But if you are communicating so
>>well then why are (were) you using a mechanical hackamore only in competition??
>>My thought is you should be able to compete well in whatever you use
>>to school at home and if you can't then something is wrong with your
>>schooling or communications.
>>                                Tracy

>Tracy:
>I agreed with everything you said up to this point, and found all
>the info on different types of hackamores and transitional devices
>very interesting. But I have to say that, most of the time,
>"schooling" and "competing" are different in that you school a horse
>in a way that will make him/her behave a certain way in competition.

>Schooling can mean that you ride very lightly at home, because your
>horse tends to be hot and you want to be able to work him down
>before your classes. It can mean jumping certain types of fences
>(offsets, gymnastics, etc.) that she will never see in the show
>ring, but that get her in the habit of jumping in a certain form. I
>believe this also applies to bits: I was recently riding a VERY hot
>jumper who at home I rode in a breaking bit, in order to keep his
>mouth soft and sensitive. That way, when I stepped up the bit at
>shows, he would respond to it. If I used my show bit every day at
>home, he soon would have been desensitized to it and it would have
>been useless. The idea is to use gentler equipment at home, then
>step it up at shows to counteract the corresponding increase in, er,
>enthusiasm that the horse tends to display in these exciting
>situations.

>Okay?
>-gwyn

'Fraid not, Gwyn.  You and I are just bound to disagree over training methods
and what constitutes proper schooling and competing.  I tend to believe
in the dressage concept that you school the horse properly and when you
show them they will do what you ask.  Many dressage horses get very
high at competitions, yet they still are asked to compete (if lower
than 4th level) in a mild snaffle bit.  An "I" level judge I once 
talked to said that he felt that Grand Prix horses should also be 
required to compete in a snaffle.  The reason for this is to assess
the horse's obedience to the aids.  I have also done a little jumping
and feel very much that if the bit you compete in would desensitize
the horse if used daily then it is the wrong bit for that horse.
Ultimately the problem is that the horse is ignoring or resisting
your aids something that must be corrected with proper training
and schooling using the equipment you will use in the show ring.  
More often than not if the horse resists the bit then either the
riders hands are unsteady or rough, or the bit is uncomfortable for
the horse.

				Tracy and everybody
From: marym@mpd.tandem.com (Mary Matejka)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: black quarter horses
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:47:27 GMT
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX
Originator: marym@tzone.mpd.tandem.com


I wish I could send color cards over the net :-)

But is there any netable information on how to tell if
a quarter horse is a "true" black? A friend of mine is
trying to straighten out the registration on his mare.

She has been bred to a black stallion and had black
babies. But I understand black is dominant? So that
doesn't count? Right now she is sun bleached. The tips 
of her hair have gone kind of gold. But other than
that she is pretty much the same color all over.

Any hints?
Thanks.
From: shonette@master.CNA.TEK.COM (Shonette Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: mechanical hackamores (was:show jumping results)
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:21:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Aug13.215315.11009@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
>Shonette, the experience you had with the mechanical hackamore
>pinching your horse's face is NOT the way it is supposed to act.

First, I didn't say it pinched *My* horse's face, however,

>	The action of a properly functioning mechanical hackamore
>is down on the poll, back on the nose and up under the chin just the
>way a curb bit acts.  
>

that was what I was trying to describe.  (I guess I should have
said applied pressure rather than pinching because when the
noseband pulls down, and the chin strap pulls up, it applies
pressure (or pinches--depending on how you look at it :-)).  

I was responding to the person who said that a mechanical hack
was a good way to teach a horse to keep his head where it should
be and that has not been what I've ever seen happen.  Also, I said
head tossing and what I meant was that the horse(s) put his nose  
in the air when pressure was put on the reins, and as someone else
mentioned, this can happen regardless of what headgear the horse
is wearing.

>				Tracy and everybody

Also, I mentioned that the way *I* cue my horse to stop means that
I very rarely have to touch the reins at ALL to stop--even coming to
the finish line running the barrels.  And, I also mentioned that I
only ride (rode) in a mechanical hackamore during competition.  I
figure that if I'm competing (seriously competing), we ought to be
communicating VERY well before I spend my money...

Shonette Rogers
  and Miss Lady Linton
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: black quarter horses
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:26:44 GMT
Organization: Wright State University

In article <92228.220352CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu>, <CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> The presence of brown hairs around the muzzle is one good way to tell that
> a horse is not a true black, as mentioned by another person on the net. I own
> 2 black horses and they DO bleach out in the summer; most people might even thi
> nk they were bay, but their muzzle hair is always black. They only really look
> totally black for a couple weeks in the spring when they lose their winter hair
>  and the new spring coat comes in. Unless a black horse is kept inside a lot,
> it will bleach out quite a bit. I opt to have mine out on pasture and as a
> result get to see that wonderful shiny total blackness only occasionally. Hope
> this helps clarify the issue.

According the the really good information that Tracy from Arizona sent me a
while back, a black horse with a brown muzzle is really genetically black
with an extra gene that causes the brown around the muzzle.

Hope this helps.

Sue
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian