HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mba2@Jane.UH.EDU (Puneet_S)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Date: 14 Dec 1992 04:06:23 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: na
Reply-To: mba2@Jane.UH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu

>>Yet another idiotic solution on your part. Solution to avoid religious
>>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
>>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheists. Some of the
>>worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists. You only have to look at 
>>some of them in China and the old Soviet Union.

Hey, what's wrong with a little violence every now and then.  Isn't that
one of the best ways to get rid of people.  Appologies I haven't been
keeping up with posts recently, but i'm back and this does like a good
debate that i can sink my teeth into.  I'm gonn love this one.....

>
>i am curious as to your comment on atheism in china as well as the
>old soviet union, alok.  i know that relgious ideas were suppressed
>and prohibited in the former soviet union, but the "worst rioteers
>or bloodhounds"?  personally, i think the christian crusaders of the
>middle ages were worse than these "atheists", and they weren't the
>worst in world history!  do you have a reference on this?

Actually, cas in point from my own research.  FYI - the worst crusader/
defender was Vlad Dracul - He in his life time was responsible for the
deaths of over 100,000 (that's five zeros folks) in his life time.  Doesn't
seem big, but this was in the late 1400's and  wasn't with anything but
good old swords and bows and arrows.  He was in him time the most honored
and revered man of his time  and yes he was a Christian..  As for the
Chineese and Russians being Atheists..  I'm sorry you lose, please try
again.  They are from being atheists.  And if you need research on China,
please read the latest article in the Economist.  
________________________________________________________________________________
It's not my goddamn planet, monkey boy
Puneet

                                                         MBA2@JETSON.UH.EDU   or
                                                         BBRC215@BAL0053.B-R.COM
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap)
Subject: Its party time in Boston (well, Cambridge) !
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Distribution: us
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:30:42 GMT


Hello North Eastern acua-i addicts:

The Boston acua-i party is happening!

Where: Preeti's House
When:  Sunday, Dec 27th, 1pm
What:  Casual lunch, BYOB, hang out etc

Please let me know, or let Mehul know, whether
you are interested, in ADVANCE of the 27th,
since we are trying to figure out logistics--
food, parking etc.  RSVP to one of us and
we'll supply you with directions. 
Preeti:   pghol@ctp.com
Mehul:    msanghvi@cs.lowell.edu

Hope to see you there!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Preeti Anissa Gholap ^ CTP Inc. ^ 304 Vassar St. ^ Cambridge MA 02139 USA ^
^ pghol@ctp.com        ^          ^ (617)374-9800  ^                        ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: esti@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin)
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Reply-To: esti@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:27:20 GMT

In article <7450@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:

>|>  All your examples above are prejudice by a group, and not constitutionally
>
>By the group in power who have the opportunity to interpret that 
>constitution you speak so highly of.

[deleted]

>What, it took almost 100 years to realize that slavery was unconstitutional?
>The US Constitution was written in part by Jefferson who owned slaves 
>himself. If this constitution was so resoundingly against slavery, why
>did Lincoln feel compelled to write the Emancipation Proclamation which
>freed slaves *only* in seceding states. Why could the 3/5ths act pass,
>.... I could go on and on...
>The US Constitution was *not* the reason for the nominal abolishment
>of slavery.

Not the Constitution itself, no.  (Otherwise, why would they have
needed to amend the Constitution to outlaw slavery?)  But the fact
that many people believed in the basic principles that were behind the
Constitution-- "all men are created equal" and all that stuff in the
Declaration of Independence-- is part of the reason the slaves were
frees.  Those principles go a long way towards understanding why a lot
of evils seem to get stamped out eventually, sooner (in my view) than
if the U.S. *weren't* based on some fundamentally sound principles of
liberty, equality, and democracy.  (Actually, in some ways liberty,
equality, and democracy are fundamentally opposed to one another, but
that's another issue.)

One needs both the laws and the principles...  the laws tend to keep
the principles from sliding too far backwards (else, say, MacCarthyism
would have been even worse), and the principles tend to lead to people
to eventually making better laws.

Now, to move this discussion back to India... what *does* the Indian
contitution look like?  In what ways is it similar to and different
from the American constitution?  Are there ways in which the British
influence on the Indian form of government have particularly helped or
hindered India in the long run, in your view?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _/_/_/  _/    _/    _/    _/_/    _/  _/ Paul Andrew Estin  313-994-3869
   _/      _/_/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/_/   U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology
  _/_/_/  _/  _/_/  _/_/_/  _/_/    _/     estin@csmil.umich.edu
     _/  _/    _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/_/   esti@midway.uchicago.edu
_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/ HoloMuck 128.135.120.46 5757
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: how to prevent Ayodhya like fiascos
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:32:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.141506.26023@nas.nasa.gov>, raghavan@wk28.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan) writes:
> Ravi Kiran <ballams@pine.circa.ufl.edu> writes:
> 
>    >Lining up and shooting any body is not going
>    >to solve problems of this nature.  IMHO, it seems
>    >like religion is the root cause of all this.  I guess 
>    >destroying all the religions of the world will atleast
>    >prevent problems of this sort to happen in future. 
>    >Religion as it is used now does more harm than good.
>    
> There are many people in this world who use their belief in god to 
> improve their life. (Hope, motivation, concentration etc.)
>    

Yes, that is precisely what I have been trying to convey that there
are millions of people who improve their life as well as behave more 
responsibly towards other humans (and other living forms) due to their 
belief in God. So let's not discount the positive effect of God and 
religion in an attempt to critcise those who commit crimes in name
of God and religion. 

>    >So it should be the case that the intellectuals should
>    >find a way to remedy this world of religion.  The concept 
>    >of God is no longer a helpful one, it seems and just like a 
>    >rotten limb is amputated,  the concept of religion 
>    >should be completely removed.  Then nations will 
>    >not be segregated because of religion, people will
>    >not use religion for discrimination, people will not
>    >fight bloody wars in the name of religion and who 
>    >knows they may even stop fighting over other things 
>    >too.  
>    >
>    >YES, just like untouchability was made against law
>    >in India, so should religion be made against law in 
>    >the world.  
>    >
>    >Comments welcome, 
>    >
>    >Ravi Kiran.
>    
> IMHO, religion/atheism is not the problem. It is the lack of tolerance 
> for other people and beliefs (race, language, religion etc.) which is 
> the cause of so many conflicts around the world, including BM/RJB.
> 

Once again, I agree with Venkatraman. I also want to point out that
to acquire tolerance towards other people and beliefs (race, language,
religion etc. ) one should first keep an open mind towards other people
and beliefs (race, language, religion, culture etc). In other words,
the lack of tolerance is a consequence of lack of open-mindedness.

> If only we could learn to walk around without stepping
> on each others toes ...

and learn to listen to other's viewpoints and experiences before
pointing 'gun' at them ...


Welcome back Raghavan.

Alok
From: murthy@heaviside.berkeley.edu (Praveen Murthy)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Date: 14 Dec 1992 19:34:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: heaviside.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec14.160619.18341@athena.mit.edu>, tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh) writes:
|> 
|>  No. Because, you are mixing two different issues: One is prejudice/hatred
|>  by a group/majority and other is "state sanctioned/supported" 
|>  prejudice/hatred. It will be far more chaotic if the Republican or Democratic
|>  or Libert'n party supported and argued on some orthodox-religon basis. Much
|>  like the way BJP/JS group is doing in India. Look at any nation headed by
|>  a religious order/govt - the state sponsors terrorism both inside and outside
|>  (for example, Salman Rushdie case). 

You seem to think that religious intolerance is encouraged by the Indian
Constitution.  It is not.  It is quite clear that the consititution is based
on the concepts of secularism and democracy.  Jumping on this bandwagon
of bashing everyone in sight for the actions of a few (yes, 100,000 "hindus"
is small compared to 700 million) is completely misguided.  What is troubling
about India is the breakdown of law and order.  When some people start
ignoring the Supreme Court, then there is big trouble.  Also, you are rather
naive about US politics.  There are groups like the BJP even in this country.
Pat Buchanan and Pat Robertson come immediately to mind.  The reason they
haven't succeeded is probably because the average American is much better
educated and well-off than the average Indian.

The only solution in India is economic progress.  As someone pointed out
before, if a guy has a good job and is well-off materially, he has a lot
more to lose and will care less whether there's a masjid/temple/toilet in
Ayodhya.  The trouble starts when people feel there's nothing left to lose.
(eg. the LA riots)

|> 
|>  All your examples above are prejudice by a group, and not constitutionally
|>  sponsored/supported. But for the US constitution, the slavery would have 
|>  continued, religions torn apart, civil wars fought endlessly. Such events
|>  go against the fundamental spirit of the bill of rights. And life and 
|>  civility in US have evolved accordingly. No, US history isn't perfect.
|>  But, there is a lot to look up to and learn from. And that, IMO, is what
|>  is needed globally. 

|> 
|> >You can't seperate church and state or the state from economics...
|> 
|>  Why not? The US constitution already does it, FYI.
|>  Or are we both misunderstanding the terms "religion and state?"

So does the Indian Constitution.  The fact that both Communists and far right
parties like the BJP are allowed to exist should be ample evidence of this.
|> 
|> T.Y.			       (When will everyone have The Right to Disagree)
|> ----

Praveen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:08:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.174252.26778@cirrus.com>, venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
> In <1g8h3tINN3bk@menudo.uh.edu> mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (Purna Murthy) writes:
> 
> >alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) wrote:
> >>Yet another idiotic solution on your part. Solution to avoid religious
> >>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
> >>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheists. Some of the
> >>worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists. You only have to look at 
> >>some of them in China and the old Soviet Union.
> 
> >i am curious as to your comment on atheism in china as well as the
> >old soviet union, alok.  i know that relgious ideas were suppressed
> >and prohibited in the former soviet union, but the "worst rioteers
> >or bloodhounds"?  personally, i think the christian crusaders of the
> >middle ages were worse than these "atheists", and they weren't the
> >worst in world history!  do you have a reference on this?
> 
> i would also like to point out that religious suppression is not the same as
> atheism...atheism is a choice. many atheists (or agnostics) become so, after
> following one or more religions, and becoming disillusioned by them.  

I agree- religious suppression is not the same as atheism. I also agree
how some people become atheists. 

What I said is that - "Some of the worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists".
Out of all rioteers/bloodhounds around the globe at different times, some have
been proclaimed atheists - Stalin, Deng Xiao Ping, Mao Tse-Tung are some 
prominent examples. They incited or directed efforts to suppress religious
freedom, put people those who disobeyed - into dark dungeons, exiles, through
tortures and murders in thousands of cases. Their property was looted and
converted to government property only to be distributed to those serving
in the government. These government officials were the people who were
directing suppression and torture. Atheism was the state policy. These people
were atheists. 

Not all atheists are however bad guys/gals. Atheism per se is not bad.

> 
> "the worst rioters or bloodhounds" are not *atheists* but tyrants who
> suppress choice (and freedom) in religion (and other things, of course...but
> the issue is religion). that was what happened in china or the old soviet.  
> 

Agreed. However what I said was that some of the worst rioteers or bloodhounds
have been and are proclaimed atheists. This was said in reference to somebody 
claiming that atheism would solve the world problems. That there will be
no riots or crime in the world with atheism. That the murder of God will
alleviate all the sufferings in the world. Such people are stupid.

> i would also like to see a reference that *atheists* caused the worst
> bloodshed in history.

References provided in earlier reply. Some are in this reply.

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: esti@quads.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin)
Subject: Re: how to prevent Ayodhya like fiascos
Reply-To: esti@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:19:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.223847.25799@eng.ufl.edu> Ravi Kiran
<ballams@pine.circa.ufl.edu> writes:

>Lining up and shooting any body is not going
>to solve problems of this nature.  IMHO, it seems
>like religion is the root cause of all this.  I guess 
>destroying all the religions of the world will atleast
>prevent problems of this sort to happen in future. 
>Religion as it is used now does more harm than good.
>So it should be the case that the intellectuals should
>find a way to remedy this world of religion.  The concept 
>of God is no longer a helpful one, it seems and just like a 
>rotten limb is amputated,  the concept of religion 
>should be completely removed.  Then nations will 
>not be segregated because of religion, people will
>not use religion for discrimination, people will not
>fight bloody wars in the name of religion and who 
>knows they may even stop fighting over other things 
>too.  

Nah.  They'll just fight over some other absolutist reason.  Besides,
can you think of some way of banning religion that isn't more
repressive and doing more harm than the religion itself?  It didn't
work in the USSR...  No, it's the right thing to ban acts of religion
(or of anything else) which infringe on other people's fundamental
rights, but banning religion itself won't solve anything, even if it
were possible.

[See my other article on "religion and violence" for more about
absolutism leading to violence.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _/_/_/  _/    _/    _/    _/_/    _/  _/ Paul Andrew Estin  313-994-3869
   _/      _/_/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/_/   U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology
  _/_/_/  _/  _/_/  _/_/_/  _/_/    _/     estin@csmil.umich.edu
     _/  _/    _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/_/   esti@midway.uchicago.edu
_/_/_/  _/    _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/  _/ HoloMuck 132.206.3.32 5757
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Date: 13 Dec 1992 05:09:56 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: neuron.tamu.edu

In article <168BBFE41.BRIANS@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu> BRIANS@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu writes:
>I am part of a group of academics headed for Delhi on
>December 19 (we will arrive on the 24th, via Thailand).
>what to do?  We are teachers of a World Civilizations course
>going to familiarize ourselves first-hand with various
>aspects of Indian culture, and have no particular religious
>bias one way or another.  There are no Indians among us.
>Paul Brians, Washington State University, Pullman, WA

I suppose the only thing to do is to be non-partisan (which you 
say you are).  Don't take photographs of any demonstrations lest
the mob mistakes you for press photographers. 

There is already a decline in the unrest and hopefully, by 24th, 
things should be fairly normal again.  Besides, I doubt if you will
be headed in those regions (slums and other poor colonies) where 
most of the trouble is concentrated. 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|  LIFE's COMPLEX - IT HAS
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)  REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS.
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh)
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:06:19 GMT

======================================
 To:
>> Well, first off, one should learn something 
>> extraordinary from the history of
>> US. We do not see brewing of religious 
>> fervor in US because of constitutional
>> separation of the state and the religion - thanks to the founding fathers. 

 mba2@Jane.UH.EDU replies (deleted contents for brevity):
>Yes let's do look at history.....Hmmmm......Massachusetts and the founding
>American Indians.....can't convert 'em, let's kill 'em....
>Orientals....Let's use for building railroads....
>Blacks.....Let's enslave 'em and sqaush their culture....
>KKK....Boy, I think we have a failure to communicate....Yu' ain't from
>Southern Baptists saying that Creationism needs to be taught in school...
>Southern Baptists saying that the rest of us (christians, methodists,
>Hebrews saying that we need to go help out Israel kill some Muslims in
>Wasn't someone talking about putting prayers back in school....Hmmm.
>
>Should I go on....

 No. Because, you are mixing two different issues: One is prejudice/hatred
 by a group/majority and other is "state sanctioned/supported" 
 prejudice/hatred. It will be far more chaotic if the Republican or Democratic
 or Libert'n party supported and argued on some orthodox-religon basis. Much
 like the way BJP/JS group is doing in India. Look at any nation headed by
 a religious order/govt - the state sponsors terrorism both inside and outside
 (for example, Salman Rushdie case). 

 All your examples above are prejudice by a group, and not constitutionally
 sponsored/supported. But for the US constitution, the slavery would have 
 continued, religions torn apart, civil wars fought endlessly. Such events
 go against the fundamental spirit of the bill of rights. And life and 
 civility in US have evolved accordingly. No, US history isn't perfect.
 But, there is a lot to look up to and learn from. And that, IMO, is what
 is needed globally. 

>You can't seperate church and state or the state from economics...

 Why not? The US constitution already does it, FYI.
 Or are we both misunderstanding the terms "religion and state?"

T.Y.			       (When will everyone have The Right to Disagree)
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu

 ps: To keep repetitions to a minimum, I refrained from critiquing your
    "violence is ok" arguments. I disagree with this. Please peruse other posts
    in this newsgroup for reasons. 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: ngupta@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (ngupta)
Subject: Re: So why not just say "hi?"
Reply-To: ngupta@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: G.E.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:40:30 GMT

In article 16393@ctp.com, pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap) writes:
>Eg. I got mugged in my neighborhood (that has a lot of minorities and
>its fair share of Indians)  on a sunny Sunday afternoon
>a few months ago. A whole car load of Indians slowed 
>down to rubberneck, but none helped or even looked like
>they might call the cops, while a Mexican family with
>little kids who were right behind the Indian car, pulled over--
>the father chased the muggers off, dispatched the
>kids to a phone booth to get the police while the mother
>tried to patch me up!

In my opinion, this was just one of those chances.  Something like this happened to me but i had American/Hispanic onlookers and a black guy was the one to help me.  What this shows is that everybody is into their own community, religion and color but there are few wise heads who have the humanity to lend a helping hand.  I admit the Indians settled over here for decades are more conservative and self-centered than anybody else but that is limited to only the 1st generation Indians. The new generation is c


oming out of that grasp and going towards a better tommorow.

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rek@eng.auburn.edu (Narayana S. Rekapalli)
Subject: Question about PT,EAD and INS office
Reply-To: rek@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:48:42 GMT


Does anyone know the nearest INS office to Atlanta, where I can get the EAD on the counter?  Atlanta INS office takes 5 to 6 weeks.  I appreciate if you can provide this information to the following E-mail address.

         rek@eng.auburn.edu

Narayana Rekpalli
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:08:27 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com
Distribution: na

tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh) writes:

> This newsgroup, IMHO, should keep its focus. Its not talk.something
> Would you prefer it otherwise? :)

Actually, yes. I read this newsgroup to get a feel of Indian-Americans
(and other expatriate Indians/subcontinentals), their life experiences,
their way of thinking, etc. Thus, <talk.something> in ASUAI is different
from <talk.something> in Soc.culture.indian, for example.

Sumitro
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian