From: hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Christology 101
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:47:00 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


..in which Sean gets yet _another_ theology lesson...

In article <1992Sep10.182404.24739@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu>, johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.115525.7438@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>> In article <Sep.10.01.15.31.1992.19629@athos.rutgers.edu>,  
> hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:
>> >  They are not because of any
>> > metaphysical difference between Jesus and other humans, but because
>> > God's power worked through him.  He had a special role, and thus a
>> > more direct access to God's power, but it is God's power, which is
>> > separate from Jesus' nature as a human being.  Christians do not
>> > regard Jesus as superman, i.e. someone who as a human being has extra
>> > powers.  Such views have been suggested, but are considered heretical.
>> 
>> Are you sure about this? To me, it is your views that sound heretical. 
>> The version of the Nicene Creed in Kenneth Scott Latourette's 
>> _A History of Christianity, Vol.1_  reads, in part...
>> 
>>  We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible
>>  and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-
>>  begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God
>>  from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,
>>  of one substance with the Father, through whom all things came to be,  
>>  [...] 
>>  This says that "Jesus Christ" is "true God from true God." It says that
>> "Jesus Christ" is "of one substance with the father," "suffered, rose  
>>  the third day, etc."   
>> 
>> In other words, Jesus was not just an ordinary guy with the power of God
>> working through him. He was "true God from true God."
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>      Yes, but He is not _only_ "true God from true God". He is also true  
> human from true human. Remember that the Incarnation is the result of the  
> _cooperation_ of the Holy Spirit _and_ Mary. Jesus is one person in two  
> natures (essences). His ability to perform miracles is due to His divine  
> nature, not His human nature. Jesus is not superhuman. He is human; and He  
> is divine.

Agreed, this is the doctrine. Charles Hedrick was saying that Jesus was 
"subject to normal human limitations," which he obviously wasn't, since
he was "true God."  He was human - but he was also something else. Or so
we're told...:)

>      Well, "America _is_ the Great Satan"--(Ayatollah Khomeini) :-) :-)

Since my thesis area is 19th Century American Literature, I can't be THAT
hard on you Yankess...much as I respect the old Ayatollah's memory. :)

>  
>>  Re: the Trinity
>
>> You are emphasizing only one half of the equation. There are two  
> natures,
>> but in Jesus of Nazareth these two natures were One substance.
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> This emphasis you make would have got you excommunicated as an
>> Apollinarian in the fifth century.
>>
>      Sean, you are confusing essence/nature/substance (ousia) with person  
> (hypostasis/parsopa).

Oooops! You're right! *blush* The Greek words are even glossed right here in
my text. I guess the point remains, though, that Jesus was not just a human
being like you and me. I only have one ousia in my hypostasis. How about
you? :)

Charles Hedrick's point (I think) was that Jesus was a human being with 
God presence within him. Or those are the words he used, anyway, more or less.

> The Council of Chalcedon is directed primarily, not  
> against the opinions of Apollinarius, but against the opinions of  
> Nestorius, who stated that Jesus is a union of two ousia _and_ two  
> hypostases. The Chalcedonian view of the Incarnation is that Jesus is two  
> ousia in one hypostatis.

This would make Mr. Hedrick more of a Nestorian than a Apollinarian, then?
This kind of conversation sure brings history to life. :)

>      [...some stuff deleted...]  
>  
>> > We do believe that God was present in
>> > and through Jesus, so that Jesus' acts are God's acts, and Jesus
>> > reveals God's nature to us.  But Christian theology keeps his humanity
>> > and God's identication with him carefully separate.  Confusing
>> > Christ's humanity and divinity is one of the classic heresies.
> 
>      [...some stuff deleted...]
>  
>> Strictly speaking, NOT con-fusing (putting together) Christ's humanity
>> and divinity is the mark of heresy. The Apollinarians stressed Jesus'
>> humanity, saying that God/Logos was present in him. The Monophysites
>> stressed his Divinity.  Both points of view were condemned as heretical.
> 
>      Actually, it's the Nestorians who are alleged to overemphasize Jesus'  
> humanity. The Apollinarians believed that Jesus had a human body, but no  
> human soul or spirit (His soul and spirit were identical to the Logos).  
> The divine and human natures are _united_ in the person of Jesus, but not  
> _confused_ in the person of Jesus. In other words, there is no transfer of  
> attributes between the _natures_, i.e. Jesus' human nature has no divine  
> attributes, and vice-versa. The _person_ of Jesus, however, does have both  
> divine and human attributes, because Jesus is a union of two natures.

Thanks for the clarification. Latourette is a little vague on the 
details of the Apollinarian heresy.  This is extremely subtle stuff, isn't 
it? Real hair-splitting...

Let me conclude, then - the _person_ of Jesus can surely not be said to be
a normal human _person_, although his human nature may have been normal.

Have you any details about what the official definition of "human ousia"
is?  I'm curious as to what "human-ness" is, given that it is possible for
it to remain intact in the same person with Divinity.

> Arthur Johnson
> johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu
> 

Sean Hartigan
hartigan@ac.dal.ca
   
"...a person should live in God as comfortably as 
they live in their living room or kitchen."  
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic