HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Eye injuries from telescopic sights
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:09:49 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <186@kixtal.UUCP> micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD) writes:
#
#About a year ago an unfortunate hunter in Sweden had a malfunction in his
#12/70 .308 combination gun causing it to discharge both barrels
#simoultaneously.
#The telescopic sight actually smashed his right eye to the extent that it
#had
#to be removed. I myself have had the eyepiece rim of the tube of my
#9.3x64 rifle
#hit my eyebrow several times causing cuts and bleeding. Since i work with
#medical 
#informatics I have tried to locate case reports of similar accidents but
#havent
#come up with *anything* concerning serious injuries from gun recoils.
#Have any
#of you netters:
#1. Had such (serious) accidents?
#2. Heard about any ?
#or (best)
#3. Seen anything published about them?

I've seen it happen several times. The least caliber I've seen
involved was a 7mm Remington Magnum on a Browning BAR with a
Leupold Vari-x II 3-9 scope.  Every other instance was with a more
subtantial caliber.  I've seen glasses (as in spectacles) broken
once.  I've _heard_ of many, many more cases.

The contributing conditions appear to be high-energy caliber, light
rifle, high-power (and therefore low eye-relief) scope, and _maybe_
inexperienced shooter.  

I've been present while one friend of mine did it _twice_, 
admittedly a few years apart.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Weapon for defense from cows
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:28 GMT
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting

How about a flare gun used as a grenade launcher? :-)
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
 
GE: Perhaps not Evil Incarnate, but certainly close enough for
    government work.
From: justice@panix.com (Michael Justice)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Looking for a .308 self-loader
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:45:49 GMT


I'm looking for a .308 (7.62 NATO) self-loader.  I'd prefer
one with detachable mags.  The only models I've heard of so
far are HK-91, the HK SR-7 (?) and the LAR-A1.  I'd appreciate
comments on these or others, both positives and negatives.

			  Thanks,

			-- Michael.
--
Michael A. Justice
justice@panix.com
 NRA Life / ILA
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Little-known membership benefits of the NRA
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:44 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <9211111044.aa23917@ingate.microsoft.COM>, davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler) writes:
# In article <q0PwTB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
# #
# #I've got my sticker, but I never put it on my car for two reasons. The
# #first is that I think window and bumper sticker are tacky. The second is
# #that I figure that it's more likely that someone will break into my car
# #if they think they might find some guns and the NRA sticker might be all
# #the hint they need to look. For the same reason I don't like to leave
# #anything visible in the passenger compartment when my car is parked.
# #
# 
# On a similar note, my brother, who works as a bartender in downtown Seattle,
# has had his car broken into three times in the last year. The first two times
# the theifs rummaged around and generally made a mess looking for valuable 
# stuff. The third time was shortly after he applied for his concealed
# weapon permit. He had left the receipt for the application folded in the
# glove box. When he got to his car that night and found the window broken
# again (he now just keeps a peice of laminated cardboard instead so if someone
# wants to get in, they can just reach through) he expected to find the inside
# of the car and trunk a mess again. Instead he found the glove box opened
# and the unfolded receipt on the seat. Nothing else was touched.
# 
# He now leaves the receipt on the passenger seat while he's at work. :)
# 
It's true that the thief may think that you *might* have guns in your
vehicle.  However, he will probably be wondering whether those guns
are with you are in your vehicle.  You see, if an unarmed Joe walks 
up as you are stealing from his vehicle, the criminal can simply
run.  However, if NRA Joe walks up with a gun, the criminal is in,
at the very best, an really uncomfortable situation.

It's a common mistake to assume that the common thief is after 
the biggest jackpot: he'll live a lot longer going after the 
smaller jackpots that don't involve risk to his life.

Speaking as an x-juvenile delinquent, I was always more comfortable
stealing a little with low risk that with stealing a lot with big
risk -- and after having bullets fly over my head, I decided to go
for no risk (ie: no stealing!).  It's truly amazing how the zinging
of bullets over your head can rearrange your value system!
-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: u4944@techops.cray.com (Charles Hubbert)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: no subject (file transmission)
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:28 GMT

I have recently purchased, legally, a DA revolver.  According to the
State of Michigan Basic Pistol Safety Pamphlet which I was given AFTER
I took the mandatory 15 question test prior to being issued my License to
Purchase a pistol, A License to Carry Concealed Pistols is generally required
for transporting a pistol, loaded or unloaded, in  motor vehicle."

Further, "Without a Concealed Pistols License you are limited to transporting
a pistol unloaded, in a wrapper or container, in the trunk of a vehicle only
in the following circumstances:

	1. en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area, provided
	you are in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or
	membership in a organization that has target shooting range facilities.

	2. transporting from the place of purchase, to your home, or place
	of business, or place of repair.

	3. in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another
	place of abode or business.

	4. to your local police agency, within 10 days of purchase, to obtain
	a Safety Inspection Certificate (registration)."

I have my Application to Carry Concealed Pistols and I am trying to 
determine the most effective wording for the Reason for Desiring License.

I have been unsuccessful in getting further clarification from the 
authorities.  Between you and me, I want to be able to take my pistol
for informal target shooting, and I want to be able to take my pistol
hunting and wear a coat over my holster (the hunting regs in MI
say I need the Carry Concealed License to wear a pistol under my coat).

Does anyone have any input?  this whole ordeal has been nerve wracking,
I am convinced that the authorities are creating a market for street
guns sales, but I am really trying to be on the up and up.  Any
hints or helps would be appreciated, especially MI licensees.

Thanks, 

Chuck Hubbert
u4944@cray.com
313/574-8159
From: kkrh@troi.cc.rochester.edu (K. Karcich)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Maximum range of .223,.308,9mm and.45acp
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:11 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

Does anyone have any specific info regarding the maximum range of the .223,
7.62 NATO, 9mm Parabellum and  .45ACP in the std. hardball military type loads. 
I'm trying to settle a argument 
in which the 223 is fired from a m16A2, the 7.62 NATO from a std. M14, the
9mm and .45 from any common submachine gun. Assume optimum elevation for maximumrange is used for each weapon type.

Thanks in advance.

regds,

Ken Karcich
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:38 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <9977@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:
# 
# I got a good situational question.  Here goes:
# 
# SCENARIO:  It is late at night.  You and your wife wake up from the sound of
# a broken window in the living room.  You grab your favorite perp-popper and
# head out towards the living room.  It is a dark, overcast night, and you can
# see the perp's outline but cannot discern if he is armed.  What do you do?  
# Shoot?  Yell something?  
# 
# <<      Nathan A. Horstman      ##  OOOO  IIIIII LL     EEEEEE RRRRR   SSSS  ||

Withdraw to a room where the entrance to the living room is visible,
but the window the invader broke is not.  Wait until he enters the
living room itself.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
We could say that Congress spends money like drunken sailors.  But that would
be unfair -- to the sailors.  They, at least, are spending their own money.
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:16 GMT

Excerpts from netnews.rec.guns: 19-Nov-92 Re: Bad tactical position (..
by Andrew @ A. Phoenix@gtep 
# WARNING!  If you come of sounding like "Gee, I really don't want to do this,
# cuz I'm a wimp and pissing my pants!" then you are putting yourself in an 
# extremely bad position.  More important than any words you might use is that
# the tone of your voice must imply "I'm just itchin' to blow your head off!"
# (Naturally, you aren't and you aint gonna shoot the head, but you've got to
# make the suspect feel that you *will* shoot to kill.)  If you sound too 
# amenable to talking it over, you will loose.  So the explanation should
# be on the order of "I've got nothing to loose here (lie like you
believe it!),
#  
# I'm already justified in blowing your ass away (again, lie like you know it!
# citing the applicable [or not-so applicable] state code might make you sound
# more convincing) so it's up to you to decide if you want to die or not."
#  
# The trick is to get the suspect to believe that what you want is in his
# best interest (and it aint!).  

The easiest way seems to just go with how you're ACTUALLY feeling.
In your best loud and angry voice:
"I've just cocked this damned revolver which means it don't take much to
pull the trigger...I'm tired and I'm pissed off and the twitch in my
index finger might accidently blow your face off....any sudden moves and
I'll shoot first and think later!!!"

Although the collective wisom I've heard says not to be "chatty" with
your prisoner, It might possibly be effective to describe what kind of
heat your packing while waiting for backup

"This here is a .357 Magnum loaded with Federal Jacketed hollow points. 
They've been found to be 95% succesful in ONE SHOT stops.  They work by
expanding inside your body and pulverizing a large mass of your tissue,
while transmitting a shock wave through you which shreds muscles and
tendons..."

keep him thinking about the demerits of being tricky.  Mind you I'm not
advocating this latter approach; just think it's interesting.

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M-16,AR-15 Life
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:02 GMT
Organization: The Hole in the Wall  Hollywood California U.S.A.


In article <92318.141800TXK107@psuvm.psu.edu> TXK107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU writes:
#I was wondering about the duribility of the lower reciver. Do they last forever
#or do the have a finite service life. If wear is a problem at what location 
#does this show? I imagine the millitary has guidelines, and connections 
#to an armourer could be benificial to the debate.

	I am no expert in this area. I am also not a machinist or
gunsmith. But, I do have a U.S. Marine Corps Technical Manual 
(TM 05538c-23&P/2), "Organizational and Intermediate Maintenance
(Including Repair Parts and Special Tools List)".

	There is a chapter "Intermediate Maintenace Instructions". On
Page 3-56 in my manual it discusses the lower receiver - just the case
not the guts. Amazingly, it explains how to fill corrosion pits. It
says that corrosion through the receiver is non repairable. The pivot
pin lugs seem to be the Achilles heal. If they are corroded or widened,
the lower receiver is junk.

	Also the hammer pin holes and trigger pin holes can become
enlarged also making the unit unserviceable. 

	There seems to be no discussion on breakage or wear of the
internal moving parts. But I suppose they are self evident and not
something that needs special checking.

	This manual is available from Lone Star Ordinance (800)
482-3733 or (512) 681-9280. Order Number 56TMA223P2  $13.95 Visa,
Master Charge etc OK.


-- 
Julian Macassey, julian@bongo.info.com  N6ARE@WA6FWI.#SOCA.CA.USA.NA
742 1/2 North Hayworth Avenue Hollywood CA 90046-7142 voice (213) 653-4495
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:11 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#
#The state regs are irrelevant; Federal law clearly states that you
#can transport your firearms, as long as they are unloaded and either
#in a locked case or in a compartment not accessible from the
#passenger compartment, and as long as you can legally possess them
#at your points of origination and destination. (See the aforementioned
#reference for the actual text of the law.)
#
#				James

Except in Illinois where the state supreme court has ruled that the
federal law protects the driver from CRIMINAL prosecution, but that the
police are not obligated to return lawfully stowed in transit guns they
confiscate.
From: loki@acca.nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .223 components for sale
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:32:13 GMT


Since I no longer have a .223, I would like to sell the following:

RCBS .223 Rem Full Length Die set.  $15 (they wholesale for $16.75)

RCBS .223 shell holder $4.

3000 + small rifle primers $10/1000 

400 + 55grain .223 boat tail jacketed bullets $7/100

~3500 .223 brass.  mostly once fired, with some twice fired mixed in.
	mixture of military and commercial.  The military stuff has
	been decrimped, and all of it has been cleaned, sized, and
	trimmed.  $30/1000; $100 for the whole box.

Shipping not included, prices are (somewhat) negotiable; I will consider
trading for .308, 9mm, .44, 270 components.  Contact me via email to
loki@acca.nmsu.edu if you're interested.

--Dan
From: andyw@meaddata.com (Andy Welter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:36 GMT
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH

How's this for an alternative to the for the uncooperative felon...

Give the standard freeze, on the floor, etc.  If they refuse, then tell them 
get the hell out or get shot.  I think this would be alot more defensable
in court than shooting just for not hitting the floor, and alot safer than 
trying a mexican standoff until the police arrive.  I'd rather let the cretin 
walk than have to worry about his possible partner or worry that he will decide 
I don't have the guts to actually shoot.

You gave the felon the option to walk away safely, and he made
the decision to stay and furthor threaten your safety... That SHOULD
be a rightous shoot for a civilian.

(standard disclaimer... I'm not a lawyer or police officer, nor have I ever
confronted a crook)

---
|Andrew Welter	     |  All views are mine and not |      (513) 865-6822   
|Mead Data Central   |    that of my employer      |      pd&o-ps-ts-dsp       
|P.O. Box 933        |                             |     andyw@meaddata.com
|Dayton, Ohio  45401 |          	           | ...!uunet!meaddata!andyw
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR15 Questions
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:01 GMT
Organization: who knows

kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes...
#I took a rifle shooting class a few weeks ago and shot my AR15 for
#the first time ( any rifles for that matter). Now I have a number of 
#questions. I'll appreciate it if I can get some comments. Note that 
#it is a Colt Competition Sporter HBAR with a 1 in 9" twist rate barrel.
#	4. How practical is the 6/3 or the 8/3 iron sight? I could use 
#	   the sights to knock down bowling pins at 200m away in my first
#	   rifle shooting session. But, bowling pins at 200m aways are so
#	   tiny. 

I don't know the exact dimensions of a bowling pin, but assumming that they
are 4" wide, that would make a 2moa target in windage.  That's a very small
sight picture but 1" larger than the x-ring of military 200 yd. bullseye
target.  If you can hit that bowling pin, you're doing ok! 


#	   that I have a 20/10 vision ( better than normal ), I have a
#	   difficult time to imagine that people can use iron sights to hit
#	   small objects at 500 m away. ( I was told that in High Power Rifle
#	   Competition, shooters shoot targets at 600m away. ) Any comments?

The 600 yd target is about 60" wide with 36" aiming black. Although it isn't
difficult to stay within the black, I've been told that it is very difficult to
get a good score the the AR with issue sights. You probably need to use the 69
gr. match bullet at that range and I think that the 9" twist is adequate.
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:29 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <9211170812.AA03076@rutgers.edu> wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
#In article <1992Nov16.162600.12840@hou.amoco.com> zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
##I'm going to travel from Houston Texas to St. Louis Missouri and back again.
##I was wondering what the laws were concerning carrying handguns in/thru the
##states of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri.  I know that I can carry in Texas while
##traveling. Any help would be appreciated.
#
#I believe that in all of the states mentioned, concealed and open
#carry is illegal. As seen in discussions on here, even the Texas
#travelling exemption is vague and is likely to lead to, at least,
#an arrest depending on the jurisdiction you pass through. Ark. has
#a prohibition against ready availability, in a car or anywhere off
#your own property. I think you may have to keep them in the trunk
#on this trip.  Such laws are very distressing to me as I have
#to attend an academic conference in San Francisco next week
#and one in Dallas in December. I'm not looking forward to either.

According to the Oklahoma statutes, concealed carry is prohibited except
for police, registered security officers, or armored car company 
personnel, and you are only allowed to transport it in a car if
it's unloaded (although you can, apparently, carry a shotgun or
rifle when it is "clip or magazine loaded and not chamber loaded
when transported in a locked compartment of the vehicle, such
as the trunk of an automobile.") Transport of loaded firearms in
"landborne" vehicles over a "public highway" is unlawful, with a
penalty of a fine between $50 and $500 and/or 10 days to six months
in the county pokey. 
(That's 21 Okl.St.Ann. section 1289.8 on the concealed carry and
Section 1289.13 on the Loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.)
Under Title 18 USCA, Chapter 44, Section 926A. Interstate transportation
of firearms, you're only allowed to transport your firearms unloaded
and in a locked case or compartment unaccessible from the passenger
compartment (the glove box is specifically excluded). The good news
(that being the bad news) is that the states can't prevent you from
transporting your guns.
(The case law supports what I said about the Oklahoma statutes; I
didn't have time to check the case law on the Federal law...)

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	I feel lucky, I feel lucky yeah
	Hey Dwight, Hey Lyle, boys, you don't have to fight,
	Hot dog, I feel lucky tonight
			--Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "I Feel Lucky"
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:54 GMT


I'm late, as usual, but: the group is outstanding as is, with an excellent
level of discussion and beaucoup useful information. A moderator is a
vital necessity with this subject and this size audience. Our moderator
is doing an outstanding job, to say the least.

Thanks a million, Jim, and keep up the great work. "It doesn't get any
better than this."

Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: skimmel@amex-trs.com (Steve Kimmel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:31 GMT
Organization: American Express Travel Related Services

In article <1992Nov12.201437.11050@phx.mcd.mot.com> you write:
#
#In article <BxH1LF.IAw@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#|> 
#|> Out of curiousity, just how many of you have actually set off a
#|> round in your domicile? I have, and it is a _VERY_ disorienting
#|> experience. 
#
#I had an AD with a .45ACP in my car, with the muzzle pointed out through an open
#door.  "Very disorienting" just barely begins to describe the feeling.  "Scared
#sh**less" is more accurate.
#
#|>             I made a slight mistake (which, thanks to the drilling
#|> of gun safety by my dad, required only tar to fix), and set a
#|> round off in my SIG P226 a few months back.

In examining my s&w 681 & s&w m19 I notice that when they are at full cock
the amount of trigger movement it takes to allow the hammer to fall is almost
imperceptible.  It's something that in a high stress self defense situation
would (IMO) be below the threshold of consciousness, increasing the probablity 
of firing the gun unintentionally.  Just the thought of that scared me 
enough to never practice anything but DA firing (well ok, to test accuracy
and all I might shoot from a cocked hammer.)  Is the trigger pull of SA autos
the same way?  (or DA first & SA for the rest.)  Were the pistols used in these
two situations in SA mode?  That might be something to consider in choosing
between a revolver or auto or between SA & DA only autos.      

-- 
Steve Kimmel   N7ULW           Phoenix, AZ      |                         
Internet skimmel@amex-trs.com                   | my views only, in no way
UUCP	 uupsi!amexphx!skimmel                  | the views of my employer.
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cosmoline
Date: 15 Nov 92 14:28:22 GMT


Possible sources for cosmoline(*):

B. W. Trading Company
Box 692-1016
Newark, Ohio 43055

Southwestern Arms Co., Inc.
Route 28, Box 84A
Milford, New York  13807

Gene Lightsey
559 Park Terrace
Birmingham, Alabama  35226

(*) These came from a small pamplet I recently purchased at a gun show
titled _Methods of Long Term Underground Storage_ by william Nelson and
Stanley Catlow, c 1976, Magnum Enterprises, P.O. Box 621, Ephrata, WA 98823

Cosmoline is such a common and useful chemical that I believe that there has
got to be more common commercial sources for it.  Apparently it is an
unrefined form of petroleum jelly.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post