From: J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Employer encouragement of alternative means of commuting
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 18:13:00 GMT

In <1bhij2INNiph@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, Aaron Priven writes:

>In article <92288.30339.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J056600@LMSC5.IS.LM
>>>i did not say "convert the land to other usage."  i said "stop
>>>providing free parking."  charge for parking.  that's an incentive.
>>
>>That is *not* an incentive.  It is a *disincentive* to use an auto.

>True.

>>And tell me this--would such a socialist
>>plan (telling people how they have to use their land)

>Since this all was a response to somebody who asked us how his/her
>employer could *VOLUNTARILY* encourage transit, it's hardly telling
>people how to use the land.  And even if it were, it would be a zoning
>regulation not unlike zillions of other zoning regulations in this
>country.  Do you have any clue what socialism is?

If the employer, and not the government, voluntarily did this, then I will
agree that it's not socilaism.  However, if the company is only voluntarily
doing it to comply with government regulations, it's a fine line.

Attempts to do this in the past have often taken the form of a government-
mandated ordinance.  That may not be pure socialism, since the government
does not own the land, but it's getting awfully close...

>Script started on Wed Oct 14 09:31:07 1992
>athena % webster socialism
>so.cial.ism \'so--sh*-.liz-*m\ n 1: any of various economic and political
>   theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration
>   of the means of production and distribution of goods 2a: a system of
>   society or group living in which there is no private property 2b: a system
>   or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
>   controlled by the state 3: a stage of society in Marxist theory
>   transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal
>   distribution of goods and pay according to work done 4: anything Tim Irvin
>   doesn't like

>athena % exit
>athena %
>script done on Wed Oct 14 09:31:18 1992

>Oh, I guess land use regulation *is* socialism then.  Sorry.

I made the dictionary!  Cool!  It's about time they recognized me... :-)
Real class and coolness in including #4 above.  It helps your credibility.
How private is private property if the government tells you how to do it?  It's
merely a constitutional end run--like the feds withholding funding to states
which refuse to abide by the feds' own unconstitutional infringements on the
10th Amendment (states rights).

>>take carpools into account?  Would carpoolers have to pay this, too?  If
>>not, how would this be administered?

>Usually this is done in parking-permit schemes by having all the
>members of the carpool apply together for a single free or
>reduced-cost permit.

>>I have no problems with genuine incentives for using transit.  I am strongly
>>against penalties for driving, though.  We should implement a reward-based
>>system and not a penalty-based system.

>I think that's a good point; reward-based systems gather less enmity
>from those who don't take advantage of them, for example.

>>Government should not be able to tell
>>businesses how they have to use their parking lots or their land in general.

>Does that apply to residences, too?  Would you be irked if a
>twenty-story apartment building went up next to your house (on the
>south side, blocking your sun), coming up on all sides right to the lot
>line?  Most people I know who live in suburbs would get irritated at
>that.  That's a zoning regulation too.

Would I be irked?  Maybe.  That's life.  I have no right to stop it.

Zoning is a different animal and you know it.  If the effects on businesses
were dependent on where they were in the city, it would be a legitimate
zoning issue.

Besides, I don't think I have a right to demand that my neighbor do anything
to placate me.  I don't have a Constitutional right to tell my neighbors what
color to paint their home or to prevent a 20-story building next door.  It's
not my property; it's not my business.


Tim Irvin   j056600@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
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