HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Re: The difference between a chasid and a misnagid
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-19911]: bourbon
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:50:56 GMT

In article <isaac.724544352@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:
>david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>
>>Seriously, there are no more misnagdim in the original usage of the
>>term, because the opposition was to supposed violations of Jewish law.
>>When the chassidim proved themselves not to be heretical, the
>>antagonism largely disappeared and both groups cooperated greatly in
>>communal affairs.
>
>Whilst I don't agree with Rav Shach and his Chassidim, they
>actually *do* constitute misnagdim today. They *do* believe that Chassidim
>(notably, perhaps only, Chabad) are heretical and do violate jewish law.
>
I don't think you meant to be insulting, but calling the followers of
Rav Shach Chassidim is insulting to those who try to be. Further,
since the original opposition to Chassidus, at least among those who
were sincere, came from those committed to Jewish law and unsure about
the committment of Chassidim, opposition today cannot be classified
the same way. No one who has paid attention to Chassidism and its
leaders (notably Chabad) can doubt the committment to Jewish law.

Further, I wonder how seriously we should take the statements of one
who claims that all those who died in the Holocaust were sinners, that
sephardim can't learn and that non-observant Jews aren't Jewish?

>My Rov tells me (in Yiddish) 
>
>``today? there are no Chassidim and no Misnagdim. I wish there were!''

Unfortunately, your Rov's sentiments have much truth in them.




David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Chaim R. Dworkin)
Subject: wgreek16.zip uploaded
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Chaim R. Dworkin)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:02:26 GMT

Shalom--

The file wgreek16.zip was recently uploaded to israel.nysernet.org.
The person who did the upload did not notify me so I cannot get in touch
with him/her.  The zip file is either bad or is part of a multi-file
archive.  I'd appreciate it if the uploader would contact me so I can
determine whether we need additional files or whether I should just
delete it.


For anyone contemplating uploading to israel.nysernet.org:  We
appreciate your uploads.  This is our archive of Jewish related
materials and the only such ftp'able archive in the United States.  However,
please take a look at the 00-ISRAEL.README file for upload instructions.
Please send a description to me of all newly uploaded files.  If I do
not have a description I cannot do anything with the file and in most
cases the files get deleted after a while.

Thanks!


-- 
Chaim R. Dworkin
chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: JforJ ad in Newsweek
Date: 18 Dec 92 04:39:59 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

In article <1992Dec18.005914.5219@scott.skidmore.edu>
ssteigma@scott.skidmore.edu (Stephen H. Steigman) writes:

> What else can we do to protest their ad?  How about writing letters to
> the editor, or writing full article responses...or how about just
> making others aware that such a annoying group exists?  Suggestions?

No, no, no, that's the _worst_ thing you can do!  

Moishe Rosen (head of Jews for Jesus) freely admits to this tactic in
his 1974 book _Jews for Jesus_, p. 114, quoted on p. 28 of Fisch's
_Jews for Nothing_.  Copyright infringement lawsuits and provocative
ads are cheap ways to get the publicity on which they thrive.
(Recently they sold t-shirts illegally displaying the circled
 U, a trademark of the Orthodox Union.  Little has changed...)

IMHO, a far more effective response would be to support Jewish
education and counter-missionary efforts.  Invite a speaker to address
your synagogue or Hebrew school about the problem.  Distribute
literature exposing missionary fraud.

Again, I direct the readers to the file
israel/answers/jews4judaism.txt available by anonymous FTP
from israel.nysernet.org.  If you don't know how to FTP, e-mail
me and I'll b'n send you a copy.

R

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:13:04 EST
From: Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: CAMPAIGN TO FREE VANUNU
 <92345.1507262893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <4573@bimacs.BITNET>

In article <4573@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) says:
>
>In article <92345.1507262893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
>2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy) writes:
>
>>In article <4569@bimacs.BITNET>, ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon
>>Ehrlich) says:
>>>In article <92344.1800322893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
>>>2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy) writes:
>>>
>
>>>>>                      THE CAMPAIGN TO FREE VANUNU
>>>>>                  and For a Nuclear Free Middle East.
>>>>>                        NEWSLETTER: autumn 1992
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not a traitor.  I'm a man with a conscience who did what he
>>>>>> did out of a deep belief after much thought and many doubts.  But
>>>>>> I knew that I had to do it, that I had no choice.  There's no one
>>>>>> else that could have done it.  And somebody had to do it.
>>>>>                                    -Mordechai Vanunu (20/XI/87)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>MORDECHAI NEEDS US
>>>( Gideon):
>>>The British known as Lord Ho Ho said the same justifying  his
>>>activity for the Nazis.  He was hanged.
>>>Sadely enough Vanunu is alive.
>>...
>>>
>>>So, if you really hates jews,
>>>    If you really hate the Jewish country,
>>>    If you really support Arabian aspirations to destroy Israel:
>>>
>>>    Let Polard die in prison !!          FIGHT FOR VANUNU !!
>>
>> ( Andy):
>>At least Vanunu worked out of principle, Pollard worked for cash
>>payments from the Mossad.  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Here comes the truth , Andy does supports anihilating Israel , from a
>principle point of view!

F--K OFF, you semi-literate moron.
>
>Shalom  We shell over come   gideon Ehrlich    ERETS YISRAEL
>
>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 16 Dec 1992 08:20:58 EST
From: Yaakov Kayman <YZKCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Joke of the Day (a true story)
 <92350.1609522893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <HEM.92Dec15180256@col400.col400.att.com>

In article <HEM.92Dec15180256@col400.col400.att.com>, hem@col400.col400.att.com
(Hillel E. Markowitz) says:
>
>In article <92350.1609522893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>
>   In article <AGW.92Dec14121713@dsm.dsm.fordham.edu>, agw@dsm.fordham.edu (Art
>   Werschulz) says:
>   >
>   >
>   >Santa bent his head down to the lad, and whispered quietly, "A gezunte
>   >on deiner kopf, yingele."
>
>A blessing on your head youngster.

The above is the punchline to the joke of when the store Santa heard that
the boy talking to him wasn't disappointed at not getting any Christmas
presents because he expected the same toys for Hanukkah.

My mother, may she be well until 120, told me that when I was a very
small child (maybe 5 or less), we went to a local department store, and
that when the store Santa asked me what I wanted for Christmas I told
him  "A Hanukkah present!" :-D :-D

>--
>____________________________________________________
>| Hillel Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li mi li    |
>| H_Markowitz@att.com | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha |
>|_____________________|____________________________|

Yaakov K.
--------
Yaakov Kayman      (212) 903-3666       City University of New York

BITNET:   YZKCU@CUNYVM        "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock
Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU     about whom the wolves complain"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Maccabee names
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:25:49 GMT

In article <Bz8M3w.6v3@ddsw1.mcs.com> dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com (DWT) writes:
>em@cvs.rochester.edu (Ethan Montag) asked in
><1992Dec10.153711.28839@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>:
>
>| Everyone knows Judah Maccabee.  What are the names of his brothers?
>
>In birth order, the sons of Mattityahu ben Yochanan haChashmoni were
>
>Yochanan haqQaddshi (John Gaddis)
>Shim`on hatTassi (Simeon Thassi)
>Yhudah hamMakhbi (Judas Maccabaeus)
>'El`azar haChorani (Eleazar Avaron)
>Yonatan havVaphsi (Jonathan Apphus)

With Shimon, a kingdom and king emerged.  Of course, since they were
all Kohanim, these kings were not kings of the line of David.   One
king (Alexander Yanni) also assumed the High Priesthood, and fought
some bloody battles to expand the borders of Eretz Yisrael.  After
his death there was a feeble attempt to keep the kingdom against the
Romans, but the Romans finally installed their own man as king. And
the rest is history. (So was this ....)
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Shabbat question
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:06:27 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)

In article <1992Dec13.220055.2804@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, jgoldber@todah (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>>But the usual riders are often not in a position to carry it or to
>>make the repairs.

>  The are also usually accompanied by people who are. definitely for
>infants, depending on the disability, for wheelchair bound people too.

And such people can usually push the broken item along, instead of
making repairs--while the item is still being used as a bed/seat.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Public Menorahs (Was:Re: Jews, Cincinatti, and the KKK
Date: 15 Dec 92 04:52:32 GMT
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-3081]: bourbon

In article <1992Dec14.173334.12973@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.161949.3547@cs.tulane.edu> david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>
># Not just the Supreme Court, but almost every federal court has
># approved the public menorah lightings. The first amendment, contrary
># to popular myth, prohibits only the establishment of religion, not the
># expression of it.
>
>	I've got news for you.  O'hare airport in Chicago has a christmas
>tree.  They refuse to allow a menorah.  Someone (I think it was
>Chabad-Lubavitch but my memory fails me here) took the airport to
>court over that.  The Federal courts ruled that this was permissable
>since a christmas tree was not a religious symbol but a menorah was!
>I kid you not.
>
If you'll note, I said "almost." I think there was one other ruling
against a menorah. But the vast majority ruled in favor.

># One wonders: since according to the Constitution, the Supreme Court
># decides the interpretation of the Constitution, how can a Supreme
># Court decision be unconstitutional?
>
>	I think he meant that the decision is wrong.
>
On what basis is the decision wrong? Because he disagrees with it?
What he meant was either that he thinks the decision wrong (for
reasons not made explicit) or that he disagrees with it (which says
nothing about its rightness or wrongness). That, however, is not what
was said. 



David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: medb@cc.newcastle.edu.au (Dieter Britz)
Subject: Life is Like a Glass of Tea
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:46:29 GMT

Life is Like a Glass of Tea

I would like to point out to you the above book, by my (noncomputing) friend
Richard Raskin, of Aarhus University. Until recently, the book was available
only locally from this University's publishing outfit; now, however, it has
appeared in the USA, JPS, ISBN 0-8276-0437-8, $19.95, softcover. Actually, the
Danish edition is preferable, having on its front cover a painting by Richard;
this did not make it onto the US edition (I think). In the painting, Abraham is
arguing with God, and guess who will win the argument. The book is NOT an out
and out collection of Jewish jokes but rather an analysis of what the author
considers the six best. Along this erudite way, however, he drops quite a few
other  jokes. The analysis itself is of course of great interest - what makes
JJ's special, how did the Jewish condition give rise to them, etc? If you
should want the Danish edition (it is in English), the address of the
publishers is Aarhus Universitets Forlag, Aarhus Universitet, 8000 Aarhus C,
Denmark. I am not sure about the price but it must be about $20.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk
Kemisk Institut, Aarhus Universitet, 8000 Aarhus C, Denmark.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:13129 talk.politics.mideast:23476 talk.politics.soviet:9714 soc.culture.greek:11492 soc.culture.europe:10454 soc.history:10154 soc.culture.soviet:11079
From: kg+02@me.unda.edu (Kaya Guralp)
Subject: Hz. MUSA'NIN KONUSMA PROBLEMLERI.....
Organization: University of Dakota, School of Engineering
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:49:10 GMT

Hz. MUSA KEKEME MIYDI?
----------------------

 Tevratta gecen hikayelerden bir tanesinde Hz. Musa isimli kisinin
 kekeme oldugu anlatilmaktadir. Bu hikaye nasil olduysa, Kuran'da da
 bulunuyor.

Kasas Suresi
 33-34 Musa: "Rabbim! dogrusu ben onlardan bir cana kiydim. Beni
    oldurmelerinden korkarim. KARDESIM HARUN'UN DILI BENIMKINDEN DAHA
    DUZGUNDUR. Onu, beni destekleyen bir yardimci olarak benimle gonder, cunku
    beni yalanlamalarindan korkarim" dedi.
 35 Allah: "SENI KARDESINLE DESTEKLEYECEGIZ; IKINIZE DE BIR KUDRET
    VERECEGIZ KI, ONLAR SIZE EL UZATAMAYACAKLARDIR. Ayetlerimile ikiniz ve
    ikinize uyanlar ustun gelecektir."

 Isin ilginc tarafi, Muhammed'in tanrisi Hz. Musa'ya oyle bir kudret
 veriyor ki, kimse Musa'ya ve kardesi Harun'a dokunamiyor. Burada sacma
 olan nokta, Tanrinin bu kadar gucu vermesine ragmen, Musa'nin 
 kekemeligine care bulmamasi. Aciklama basit, Allah Musa'yi denemek
 istemis. Gordugunuz gibi, ne de guzel acikladik.

 Tevrat sanildiginin aksine, bir din kitabi degil, bir tarih kitabi. 
 Ve Tevrattaki oykuler uygarligin basladigi, Sumerlere, M.O. 3000
 yillarina dayaniyor. Bu oykuler, gunumuze kadar gelen efsaneler ve
 destanlarin yaziya gecirilmis hali. Mesela Nuh Tufani efsanesini kokeni M.O.
 2700 yillarina dayaniyor. Adi da Gilgamis destani. Tevrat'i okudugunuzda
 Tevrat'i yazan insanlarin, bu kitabi bir tarih kitabi olarak hazirladiklarini
 gorebiliriz. Kahramanlara, basarili krallara tanrisal gucler verilerek
 yuceltilmeye calisilmis.  Kuran'da gecen, Tevrat'tan alinma insanlarin
 cogunlugu, gercekten yasamislar. Mesela, Musa, Suleyman, Davut, vs, vs. Bu
 insanlarin kim olduklarini ve ne yaptiklarini yakinda yazacagim ve gorecegiz
 ki, Kuran'da anlatilanin aksine, bu insanlar tek tanrili degil, cok tanrili
 bir dine inaniyorlarmis. (Yapilan arkeolojik kazilardan elde edilen bulgulara
 gore).  Bu konuyu daha sonraki yazilarimda vurgulayacagim.

 saygilarimla
 ------------
 kaya
From: v103rz6k@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Osman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: DIN ve SOSYAL YAPI (Re:ISLAM'IN IDEOLOJIK ve SOSYAL YONLERI)
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:41:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Din de kultur gibi bir ust yapi kurumudur ve her ust yapi kurumu gibi toplumu
kendi anlayis ve cikari dogrultusunda etkileyecektir.Ama uzerinde az durulan 
konu,bir toplumda dinsel yogunluk derecesini saptayan nedenlerin meydana 
cikarilmasi konusudur. Orgutlu yada orgutlenmemis din'i bir toplum icerisinde 
bir etki kurumu, baski araci olarak incelemenin disinda birde dinsel olusum ve
katilmanin hangi tabana dayandigini,hangi sosyo-ekonomik ve sosyo-kulturel 
kosullardan uredigini saptamak gerekmektedir.
Siyasal ve sosyal gelismenin bulutlarin otesinden ilahi bir el tarafindan idare
edilmedigi aciktir. Bir toplumda dengeli bir parlamenter rejim ve paylasilan 
bir iktidar yapisi varken,bir toplumda tepeden inmeci bir asker-burokrat elitin
bulunmasi sans ve kaderle yorumlanamaz.
Demokrasi de, fasizm de,diktatorluk te kendilerine  en uygun ortam icerisinde
gelisirler. Bu ortam, o siyasal yapiya rengini veren toplumun alt yapisal
ozellikleri,yani uretim iliskileri turunun yarattigi ortamdir.Ornegin,feodal
uretim iliskilerine dayanan geleneksel bir toplumda siyasal yapi olarak
feodal beyler ve agalari  bulmamiz ne denli dogal ise, sanayi devrimini
gerceklestirmis katilimci ve farklilasmis sosyal siniflarin bulundugu bir 
toplumda da pluralist ve demokratik bir siyasal yapi bulmamiz o denli dogaldir.
Dinin toplumu degil fakat toplumsal kosullarin dini olusturdugu yontemiyle
hareket edersek dinsel orgutlenmenin nedenlerini toplumun yapisinda aramamiz
daha yerinde olur.

Iste, dinsel hareketlilik konusuna boyle determinist bir acidan egildigimizde
onun nasil bir toplumsal bunyenin urunu oldugunu saptamamiz icin toplumsal
bunyeyi olusturan sosyo-ekonomik unsurlari incelememiz gerekmektedir.
Simdiye kadar dinsel akimlar ve orgutlenmeleri sert dillerde kinandi ve din
sosyal gelismemize set ceken, bizi cagdas medeniyete gitmekten alakoyup  Orta
Cag karanliklarina itmek isteyen bir umaci olarak  gosterildi. Ama toplumumuzda
din elle tutulur,gozle gorulur bir olaydir. Onu kinamakla,tehdit
etmekle,suclamakla yok edemeyiz ya da etkisini sinirlayamayiz. Toplumsal
bunyemizin urettigi bir unsur olan din'in sosyo-ekonomik kaynagini saptamadan,
kalabalik taraftar kitlesini hangi tabandan buldugunu ogrenmeye calismadan onu
kinamak ve laiklik sopasiyla tehdit etmek,deve kusu misali,tehlikeden korkup
basimizi kuma sokmaya benzer.Sanirim, bu katilim ve hareketliligin temeline
inmek ve dinsel yogunlugu olusturan nedenleri ulkenin alt yapi sisteminde
aramak daha dogru olur.

Osman
Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:13201 talk.politics.mideast:23518 talk.politics.soviet:9753 soc.culture.greek:11526 soc.culture.europe:10493 soc.history:10177
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: (none)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:20:35 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Picture: Heap of slaughtered Turkish women and children by Armenians.
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec17.220822.19987@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> deniz@prometheus.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus) writes:

>Serdar Argic is an interesting character who enjoys posting megabytes of
>stuff that by now no one reads.  

Then we noticed the "karakus".


Source: A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla 
        Ermeni Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.

pp. 453-455.

Picture: Heap of slaughtered Turkish women and children by Armenians.

"Bitlis Tas Mahallesinden olup, simdi Savur'da bulunan 45 yasinda 
 Huseyin oglu Bakkal Muhittin Efendi'nin yeminli ifadesi:

 1915 Subat ayinin sonu idi. Evimde otururken, birden sehirin cesitli
 yerlerinden surekli ates sesleri ve gurultulu sesler gelmeye basladi.
 Bu Rus-Ermeni birliklerinin geldigini delalet ediyordu. Hemen sokaga 
 ciktim. Ceteler sehirde umumi bir katliam yapiyorlardi. Hemen ailemi
 kurtarmak icin eve gittim. Yolda, Viranli katip Fazil Efendinin parca
 parca edildigini gorunce, ailemle birlikte vilayet konagi tarafindan
 kacmaya mecbur oldum. Orada yollar Ermeniler tarafindan kesilmisti. 
 Butun Muslumanlari yas farki gozetmeksizin olduruyorlardi. 
 Kurtulabilmek icin o taraftan hic bir cikis bulamadigimdan, dusmanin 
 eline gecmemek icin kendimi Bitlis'ten gecen nehre atmak istedim. 
 Kardesim Musa bu tesebbusume mani oldu ve Tanrinin inayetiyle buyuk 
 zorluklar pahasina genel katliamdan kurtulduk.

 Binlerce kurban arasinda su taninmis kisiler vardi:

 1. Esraftan Haci Semsettin oglu Tosun Efendi,
 2. Herson mahallesinden Haci Yusuf oglu Abdulbaki Efendi,
 3. Haci Hasan oglu Haci Mehmet,
 4. Mahmut oglu Nadir,
 5. Cemal oglu Abdulrezzak,
 6. Mehmet oglu Dursun,
 7. Recep oglu Hamit,
 8. Bilal oglu Cemil,
 9. Seyh Mehmet Kufrevi oglu Seyh Abdulmalik Efendi,
10. Bitlis Jandarma komutani Ismail Bey.

 Mardin eski kadisi Ahmet Efendi yataginda katledildi. Kiz kardesi 
 Bedriye Zaman Hanim, Recep Efendinin kizi Perihan hanim, Onbasi 
 Halit'in karisi Leyla ve oglu Salih de korkunc iskencelerle evlerinde 
 oldurulduler. Musa Efendi kendi tarafinda kardesi Muhiddin gibi aci 
 sahneleri yasadi."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish