HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: res@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Rich Strebendt)
Subject: Re: Track cleaning cars
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:08:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.055744.3516@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, kollerd@pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (David R Koller) writes:
> 
>    OK, net railroaders, what is your opinion of track-cleaning cars?  Our
> model railroad club here is looking for a way to reduce the "elbow-grease"
> required to keep the track clean.  I've seen various articles in the hobby
> press about adding Masonite pads to the bottoms of freight cars, etc., as well
> as some ready-to-run commercial track cleaning cars.  Has anyone had success
> with any of these things?

On our Club layout here at the Indian Hill location of AT&T Bell Labs
we have put the several track cleaning cars that we have acquired into
boxes and use them to hold the floor down under the layout.  We have
found that regular operation (each weekday lunch hour, unless the road
is inoperable because of maintenance or new construction) is the best
way to keep the track clean.  Once a year we use a "bright boy" type
of track cleaning tool on places that might be starting to accumulate
crud (such as in tunnel interiors).  Perhaps an important
consideration is that every one of our pieces of rolling stock
regularly visits the car shop for routine maintenance and cleaning.
This cleaning includes removal of any accumulation of crud from the
wheels.  By scraping off the crud on the wheels we keep it from
accumulating on the rails.  All of the rail on the layout is, of
course, nickel-silver.  The wheelsets in use on the rolling stock are
a mixture of virtually anything that has been put on the market in the
past 20 years or more that has decently small flanges (the few
Rivarossi and AHM cars that we acquired quickly had Kadee wheelsets
installed to get rid of the gross flanges those cars come with).

					Rich Strebendt
					...!att!ihlpb!res
					r.strebendt@att.com
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: rjm@cs.brown.edu (Ralph Marshall)
Subject: Re: Helix in a layout
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 18:06:24 GMT

jpurbric@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Purbrick) writes:
>What my worthy friend Fred hasn't emphasized is that our proposed design had 
>a helix with multiple entry points and a layout divided into 'lobes'. A train
>would run around one lobe, do a couple of helix turns, emerge with a different
>direction and level, return to the helix for another turn, etc. So the long 
>delay to climb the whole stack would be done in stages and wouldn't be too 
>bothersome. 

Maybe I'm just a bit slow, but why is this delay a problem at all?
I'm stuck with the canonical 4x8 layout, and I'd *love* someplace for
the trains to be accumulating miles between station stops.  I realize
that you can't actually see them running, but it's not like a layout
this size is only going to have one train to follow at a time.  (This
discussion seems to tie in with the one about scale speeds not really
working because very few people have more than several scale miles of
mainline track.)  So, since I've never actually been at such a layout,
do people really find the delay to be a problem, and if so why?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"If I valued the honorable gentleman's opinion, I might get angry."
	Winston Churchill 
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: jpurbric@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Purbrick)
Subject: Re: Helix in a layout, also scale time
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 05:48:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.180624.7453@cs.brown.edu> rjm@cs.brown.edu (Ralph Marshall) writes:

>Maybe I'm just a bit slow, but why is [the delay in passing through a 
>helix] a problem at all?
>I'm stuck with the canonical 4x8 layout, and I'd *love* someplace for
>the trains to be accumulating miles between station stops....

Carry this to an extreme: as a friend from St Paul suggested, plan 
on an exact scale model of a Minnesota iron-hauling road. Start at the mine--
interesting stuff. Haul ore to the docks--more interesting stuff. In between,
plan to wait 8 deadly boring (but real!) hours as your train crawls through 
interminable scrubland. Naturally, you build a model of the railroad with most
of the in-between stuff removed. Then, to make it take the right amount of 
time, you use scale time. You'd never be able to endure all that empty 
country, even if you had a basement big as all outdoors.

Now, with the helix, you'll lose sight of the train for minutes at a stretch.
Do you really want to do this, even if "miles" are passing? Personally I want
to see the train run, most of the time; if it's going to be briefly out of 
sight, that's just for the fun of pretending to lose the toy while knowing 
that it'll reappear. 

John Purbrick
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: wrbanek@fnalf.fnal.gov (John D. Wrbanek)
Subject: Re: Rationale for scale speed/time (was Scale speed)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab, Batavia, IL
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 22:21:54 GMT

In article <1687BAE84.DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>, DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
(Bruce H. McIntosh) writes:
>I just ran across an article in an old issue of RMC (mid- to late-70s, I can
>look for it again if anyone's interested) by John Glaab, in which he comes
>up with a rationale for "fast time".  Using some fairly simple physics and
>math and relying upon acceleration due to gravity (and ignoring the issue of
>how to scale weight/mass/etc :-) ) he figures out that time should be "scaled"
>by a factor of the square root of the model scale.  For example, an HO scale
>fast clock should be sped up by a factor of sqrt(87):1, or 9.3:1, which is
>fairly close to the typically-used 10:1.  There are probably some holes in
>his reasoning, but it is nice to see some at least semi-valid rationale for
>the fast clock. :-)

There are no holes in the reasoning.  Acceleration is in units of
distance/time^2, and varies directly by those quanities.  Since acceleration
from gravity in the real world is the same as on the layout, then time^2 should
scale as to cancel out distance.  This means in HO time^2 would scale 87:1,
making time scaling as you said, 9.32:1.  The only "hole" is things like FREDs
and other time-dependent scenery on the layout.

This does have an effect when scaling weight, since acceleration scales 1:1
(weight = mass*acceleration).  Notice speed scales differently also (v = d/t =
87:1 / 9.3:1 = 9.3:1), but let's ignore that since it seems that the convention
has been set.

It appears to my beginner eyes that the clock should be set by timing a train
running from one town to the other at a set speed, determine how much time that
that would take on the prototype, and then speeding up the clock by that ratio.

My humble opinion.

john d. wrbanek

  wrbanek@fnal.fnal.gov           wrbanek@fnald.fnal.gov
  wrbanek@fnal.bitnet             wrbanek@warner.fnal.gov

  Fermi Nat'l Accelerator Lab.          *  Your tax dollars at work!  *       
  RD/OD/Ops                       "Fermilab is operated by University Reaserch 
  P.O.Box 500 MS 355              Association, Inc., under contract with the   
  Batavia, IL 60510               U.S. Department of Energy." - FNAL management

My opinions aren't those of FNAL, URA, DOE, or anyone except myself (thank God).
From: romeo@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac)
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: Re: blank decal film
Date: 10 Oct 92 00:14:09 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

In article <kep9TRm00aw6QTuEQH@andrew.cmu.edu> jt3y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason Paul Togyer) writes:
>Does anyone out there have any experience with blank decal film?  I saw
>an article once on making custom heralds using the blank film and a
>color copier.  
>
>In addition, do you know how "copy-machine friendly" this stuff is?  If
>I put it into the average El Grunjo office model machine, will it jam it
>up irrepairably?  Will it go into a good-quality laser printer (one that
>will accept heavy-bond paper and different sizes of documents, like
>envelopes)?  If I lay my hands on some, I'm a little nervous about
>feeding it into someone else's machine and having it muck everything up.
>

Champion Decals offer blank paper for sale. I think it's called
"blank decal paper" In general, Champion's decal products are
superior to Walthers, in my experience and opinion.

If your hobby shop can't supply this, you need to find a
better hobby shop. I bought mine at "The Train Shop" in
Santa Clara California.

Anyway, Yes, I've done this. It's works pretty well. One thing
you need to take care of is keeping the decal paper in alignment
as it passes through the printer or copier. It's smaller in
size and will skew while passing through, unless you attach it
to a standard size sheet. To avoid messing up a laser printer,
I printed my decal on regular paper, and then made the actual
decals by copying onto the decal paper with a photocopying
machine.

>I want to letter a refrigerator car for a private label (Tube City
>Brewing in McKeesport, Pa), but I only want and need one.  I don't want
>to have to order 25 sets of decals for just one car.
>
>I appreciate _any_ help anyone could give me!  8)

An alternative would be to get together with some friends
(netters?) who'd like to have the same car for their
layout, and have the decal commercially made.

Michael Stimac
-- 
Michael Stimac
(415) 355-8889
romeo@tymnet.com
These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: Joe.Russ <Joe.Russ@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Subject: Re: blank decal film
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 05:16:58 GMT


While it's not decals, I believe there was an article by Ron Ford a
few years ago in MR on how to make your own dry transfers. Sorry, but
I can't recall the month or year of that issue, and my friend Ron has
since moved to Arizona which makes it kinda hard/expensive to ask him
(grin). 
   Joe R.
   WISE Div., NMRA
-- 
Joe.Russ@mixcom.com
From: DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu (Bruce H. McIntosh)
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: Re: Helix Calculation
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:24:46 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, NERDC

In article <7646@skye.ed.ac.uk>
ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson) writes:
>The gradient of the track is then 5/138.1 or 1 in 27, which is very
>steep.  My back of an envelope calculation suggests you need about a
>40-inch radius curve to bring the gradient down to 1 in 40, which is the
>steepest incline you're likely to be able to climb.
 
A grade of 1 in 27 is 3.6 percent isn't too outlandish a hill to climb in the
model realm, particularly if you bury it under the scenery :-).  Granted, the
1 in 40 (2.5 percent) would be much more reasonable, but in most model rr
real-estate cases, the steeper grade (can you say "helper district" ? :-) )
is worth it in terms of square footage saved.
 
Bruce H. McIntosh    brucem@neufhou.mail.ufl.edu            Jesus has risen!
                     bhm@cis.ufl.edu
                     dhbhm@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
 UF Housing user support on IBM Aggravation System/400 :-)
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Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: brom@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (David Bromage)
Subject: Re: Helix in a layout
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:34:57 GMT

Fred Mikkelsen (fredm@progress.COM) wrote:
: I've been reading on the discussion of the helix. I can only say one
: thing:
: 
: 	 N O T !
: 
: 
: A helix would seem to be a good way to gain elevation in tight space,
: but to get 24" at 2% you need 100'. Usually, this is totally out of
: view. This often is *more* track than the rest of the layout combined.

But how more prototypical can you get? 100' in HO scale is about 1.65
miles, in N scale its over 3 miles. What percentage of track on real lines
is outside yards, over 90% I would say.

: 
: Additionally, a single helix becomes a total bottleneck. That means
: at least two tracks (one for each direction) are needed in the helix.

So is single track in any form. How many mail trunk lines in the world are
single?

: 
: At my club, we discussed building a helix as a way of achieving double
: levels. We arived at some design constraints:
: 
: Entering a helix would be done only when it would require an operator
: quite a bit of time to get to the next viewing angle. Typically, two
: turns would be the maximum.
: 
: A Helix is best suited for moving things from a staging area. At the
: end of an op session, waiting two minutes to put a train back is worse
: than waiting two minutes to get a train out.

No worse than transfering freight vehicles between yards in major cities.

: People from other clubs that I've heard about using a helix have all
: expressed dissatisfaction with the delay factor. Big suggestion...use
: a helix as a delay line first, then consider the topological advantages
: of double stacking, etc. You'll get better results.

Rolf Ertmer's Altenbecken layout uses a double track helix with a
triangular junction at the base. He seems to see no problem.

Cheers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bromage       brom@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   : 
Monash University                                : "I think thinking is 
Clayton, Victoria   				 :  so important"
 Australia                                       : 	-Baldrick
 						 :   
     May the source be with you			 :     
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	All views expressed are my own except those which conflict with
	my personal opinions.
From: 737ochs@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: Re: Comments on Stewart's RS3?
Date: 11 Oct 92 04:24:23 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <1687C14F8E.DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>, DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu (Bruce H. McIntosh) writes:
> Does anyone have any reviews/opinions of Stewart's HO RS3?  I'm quite the
> Alco fan, and the Stewart is the only recent RS I've seen that I could
> even remotely afford ($39.99 at a shop in the St. Pete, FL area).
>  
> What all else is out there for Alcos, particularly early Alcos?  I already
> know about the Athearn PA1.  I'm particularly keen on an FA2-FB2 lashup.
>  

Here's what I can remember off the top of my head. I believe you can get both
an RS1 and RS3 from Atlas/Stewart/Kato( kinda similar drives)
Atlas also makes an RSD4/5, RS11, C424, C425, S2 and S4
Model Die Casting also makes an RS3.
Proto2000(Life Like) makes FA/FB2's
and of course, Athearn has the PA/PB

These are ones I wowuld consider any quality
(Life Like[non Proto2000], Bachmann, Model Power, Tyco have various Alco's
that mostly don't run well)

Fred Ochs
From: jsm@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (John Scott McCauley Jr.)
Subject: Re: Pulse Power Supplies
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: PULSE POWER FREQUENCY MOTORS ADVICE
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:55:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.150945.13336@progress.com> fredm@progress.COM (Fred Mikkelsen) writes:
>I'm currently looking into designing a new control system and power
>supply. I've heard a lot about the advantages of voltage control,
>current control, and pulse-width modulation, but I haven't heard of
>any effects of different frequencies on locomotive control and motor
>life.
>
>To summarize, most pulse control systems I've heard of use 40Hz to 60Hz
>pulses. I'm wondering what the effect of 600Hz to 6KHz pulses would be.

Motors look like inductors and have very high impedence at 6 kHz.
So the higher the frequency, the lower the current flowing through the
motor.

The NMRA digital system  (Lenz, Marklin+Arnold) uses 4kHz-10kHz pulses.
In Analog mode, the DC offset of the pulse train is used to control a
loco that doesn't have a receiver. Apparantly there is some motor buzzing
at these frequencies.

Also, some constant-intensity schemes use similar frequencies. A headlamp
will light at 6 kHz but the motor won't turn. There is a circuit in the
second volume of the MR Electronics book (forgot title and author).

	Scott
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: fredm@progress.COM (Fred Mikkelsen)
Subject: Re: Helix in a layout
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:56:11 GMT

rjm@cs.brown.edu (Ralph Marshall) writes:

>Maybe I'm just a bit slow, but why is this delay a problem at all?
>I'm stuck with the canonical 4x8 layout, and I'd *love* someplace for
>the trains to be accumulating miles between station stops.  I realize
>that you can't actually see them running, but it's not like a layout
>this size is only going to have one train to follow at a time.  (This
>discussion seems to tie in with the one about scale speeds not really
>working because very few people have more than several scale miles of
>mainline track.)  So, since I've never actually been at such a layout,
>do people really find the delay to be a problem, and if so why?

I'm not an expert Model Designer, but I am an engineer and designer by
trade. This isn't to *brag* but to describe where I'm coming from!

If you're minimum radius is 18", and you have a double track helix (which
is necessary if you want trains running in opposite directions in the
helix) then the outer diameter of the helix will be 44" minimum. To
structurally build it, tracks would need to clear 3 1/2" minimum. On the
18"r track, the effective grade would be about 3%. Very steep.

The size of the helix in terms of footprint is approximately 13 square
feet, in the 4 x 8 space, that is approximately 40%. If it is double level,
you can effectively make 120% space utilization over the 4 x 8 space.

If you have a 24" high helix, double track at 18" and 20", you will have
approximately 200" of track per turn. On a 7 turn helix, that is 1400" of
track, or about 110 feet. On a typical 4 x 8 section, you can expect a
track density of about 50' of main max. For two levels that would be about
60' given the 120% estimaten in a helixed situation.

This means that approximately 2/3 of all track is hidden. Hidden from view.
Hidden from cleaning. Hidden from derailed cars. Hidden from pushing stalled
trains. How often do your trains stall on 3%? 

Clearly, you can design a layout that punches through the helix "cylendar"
occasionally and makes for a more interesting layout. There are interesting
things that happen then.

These "discontinuous" points of the helix are hardest to design. You want to
come out of a helix straight without a reverse curve, and that almost always
lines up exactly where you want a main support. I don't know why...it just
happens.

Don't get me wrong...I don't think a helix is a bad idea, I just think it
introduces a lot of design parameters that unless faced headlong can lead
to disappointment. If you want to test the delay, go to someones layout and
set a two minute egg timer. When it goes off, stop your train for 45
seconds then proceed. Repeat 20 times. Report findings. This is what running
your train for an hour will feel like.

And, in response to your second part, "yes", I have known people who built
helices and were willing to openly regret it.
From: pschauer@evans.den.mmc.com (Paul Schauer)
Subject: Re: Helix in a layout
Organization: MMAG
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:56:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.141250.8050@progress.com>, fredm@progress.COM (Fred Mikkelsen) writes:
> 
> I've been reading on the discussion of the helix. I can only say one
> thing:
> 
> 	 N O T !
> 
There have been several articles about this subject, and I want to add my $0.02.
An N-scale friend has a spiral helix on his layout. True, it enocompasses a
lot of track. So what? The effect of running the train into the top of a 
mountain and coming out of the bottom a while later is fantastic! However, I
AM designing a cylidrical helix (as opposed to the spiral helix) into my
layout. IMO, the spiral helix does not run well because the radius becomes
so tight that it does not run well. Of course, there are no such things as
cylindrical mountians as has been pointed out. This means I just have to 
make the mountain big enough to look real :-).
Paul Schauer - HOn3
From: smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: Re: Track cleaning cars
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:10:18 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <ANDRE.92Oct14103013@king.slc.mentorg.com>, andre@king.slc.mentorg.com (Andre' Hut) writes:
> I think track cleaning cars are a must to have in your operating session.  It
> won't eliminate the need to get out the bright-boys, but it will keep things
> clean as you are operating.

I confess -- I have this desire to paint a track-cleaning car in MoW colors...
From: jt3y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason Paul Togyer)
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
Subject: blank decal film
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:19:41 GMT
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Does anyone out there have any experience with blank decal film?  I saw
an article once on making custom heralds using the blank film and a
color copier.  

I remember hearing that Wm. K. Walthers carries the stuff under the
trade name 'Virnex.'  Unfortunately, every time I ask one of my
"friendly hobby-dealer men," I either get a blank stare or they say,
"Oh, yeah, we get a lot of requests for that.  Never saw it, though."

In addition, do you know how "copy-machine friendly" this stuff is?  If
I put it into the average El Grunjo office model machine, will it jam it
up irrepairably?  Will it go into a good-quality laser printer (one that
will accept heavy-bond paper and different sizes of documents, like
envelopes)?  If I lay my hands on some, I'm a little nervous about
feeding it into someone else's machine and having it muck everything up.
 8(

I want to letter a refrigerator car for a private label (Tube City
Brewing in McKeesport, Pa), but I only want and need one.  I don't want
to have to order 25 sets of decals for just one car.

I appreciate _any_ help anyone could give me!  8)



--Jason Togyer
     Carnegie Tech
     Pittsburgh, Penn.

**"The moral of the story is: don't count your boobies before they've hatched."
       --James Thurber
            _The _Unicorn_in_the_Garden_
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad
From: cal@ee.ryerson.ca (Calvin Henry-Cotnam)
Subject: Re: N scale loco's
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:57:43 GMT

bednarek@picard.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971) writes:
>
>I have just completed my first loop on my N-scale lay out that is modular
>constructed at 26' by 12'.  I have several locomotives that run like garbage.
>They are mainly Bachman products with some improvement on an Atlas loco.
>What I am looking for is a good locomotive that will pull many cars(20 to
>50) at a nice slow scale speed.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
>

I would recommend several of the Kato locomotives that have been available
over the past couple of years.

I have purchased thier GP50, GP38(-2), and their SD40.

All are excellent models - have dual flywheels that sort of function
as four flywheels. They look something like:


                 ___                ___
                 |  \______________/  |
                 |                    |
                 |   ______________   |
                 |__/              \__|
                  

     (about 1/2" long and 1/4" diameter with flared ends)


They all operate smooooooothly (there aren't enouth O's in smooth,
to quote Col. Potter on an episode of M*A*S*H!).

I have not had the opportunity to try pulling 20-50 cars with a single
locomotive, but I have pulled about 10 cars up a 4-5% grade without
difficulty.

Feel free to ask any details about these, including Kadee conversions.
(Sorry, Micro Trains' conversions --- old habbits die hard :-) )


Calvin Henry-Cotnam, CATE            |    MY CANADA INCLUDES CANADIANS!
Ryerson Polytechnical Institute      | I would really like this to include
Toronto, Ontario, Canada             | Quebec - but I won't hold my breath.
Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad