HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Subject: Re: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Reply-To: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Organization: Snake Island Research Inc, Toronto
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:48:25 GMT

In article <KERS.92Sep2081741@cdollin.hpl.hp.com> kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) writes:
>In article ... KGZXK@ASUACAD.BITNET (Zafer KADI) writes:
>
>   There is no one wrong or right on the issue of :
>
>   1. FORTRAN or anyother language.
>      All you Computer Science major that think Fortran is so bad    can
>   you tell me anyother language that has all the forms of numbers
>   that the scinetist use such as integers, real numbers and COMPLEX
>   numbers. 
>
>Just to keep the record straight: Common Lisp and Poplog Pop11 both have
>integers, floats, and complexes. They also have ratios. Scheme has them all in
>the standard, but an implementation need only provide a coherent subset. 
>
>But this doesn't mean that I'm suggesting ``scientists'' (now *there's* an
>abstract term!) should write in Pop.

APL and J support all of the above, as well as Boolean arrays and
recursive arrays (Arrays whose elements are other arrays).
Booleans are extremely useful in array computations. For example,
blanks can be removed from a list X by the expression:
    (~ X = ' ')/X

Another recent posting noted that " the CDC 6600 had a 'bit count'
instruction, but NO language supports this".  In APL and J,
the sum of any array is written as  +/X. If the array happens to be
Boolean, then this can be implemented using bit count.

APL and J binaries (and J source) are available for anonymous FTP 
from watserv1.waterloo.edu, in /languages/apl.

Bob

Robert Bernecky      rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com  bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca 
Snake Island Research Inc  (416) 368-6944   FAX: (416) 360-4694 
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 
Canada
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1341 comp.lang.fortran:3175
From: wvenable@algona.stats.adelaide.edu.au (Bill Venables)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran
Subject: Re: Small Language Wanted
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:17:31 GMT
	<1992Aug25.034553.2990@linus.mitre.org>
	<1992Aug25.104211.1@vxdesy.desy.de>
Followup-To: comp.edu
Organization: Department of Statistics, University of Adelaide
In-reply-to: pawlak@vxdesy.desy.de's message of 25 Aug 92 10:42:11 GMT

>>>>> "Michal" == pawlak <pawlak@vxdesy.desy.de> writes: 

Michal> ... about 70% of the C code I had to work with was 
Michal> badly written because of:
Michal> - ...
Michal> - making use of case sensitivity (i.e. symbols 'value' and 'Value' in the
Michal>   same program)
Michal> - ...

I'll accept all the other points, but NOT this one.  The concept of "case"
is a printing artefact and makes no sense in this context.  What's wrong
with using all 52 letters in the character set?  What could be more natural
than using "x" for a singly indexed array and "X" for a doubly indexed one?

Most versions of Fortran now do allow mixed case input (thank goodness -
otherwise you would go deaf reading the stuff) but then to regard "i" and
"I" as the *same* is a absolute gotcha.

It's case INsensitivity that is the real syntactic curse in any language
(or operating system for that matter).

--
___________________________________________________________________________
Bill Venables, Dept. of Statistics, | Email: venables@stats.adelaide.edu.au
Univ. of Adelaide, South Australia. | Tel: +61 8 228 5412  Fax: ...232 5670
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1364 comp.lang.c:12818 comp.lang.c++:12931
From: blair@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Gary Blair)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,llnl.general
Subject: introductory c++ class starts in September
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:30:21 GMT
Followup-To: comp.edu
Distribution: ca
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory


I will be teaching an introductory C++ class at the Hacienda Campus of
Las Positas College starting September 16.  The Hacienda Campus is
located on Gibraltar Drive in Pleasanton. The class meets MW 7-10.
This is a 4-unit class.  I believe the cost is $4/unit, but that may
have changed, what with the lack-of-state-budget situation and all.
We will be using Lafore's book by the Waite Group.  

Also, if you have any friends trying to become computer aware, the
following workshops will be offered:

Introduction to PC Hardware and Software
September 18-19

Introduction to C++
October 9-10

Hard-Disk Management
October 23-24


These workshops will be held at Las Positas College, 3033 Collier
Canyon Road, Livermore CA 94550.  Cost is $40 per person per
workshop if you preregister (this can be done by mail), or $45
for same-day registration.  The workshops meet on Fridays from
7-10 PM, and Saturday from 8:30-3:30.

-- 
     Gary J. Blair   (510) 422-6675        blair@dancer.llnl.gov
     Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory        
     P.O. Box 808, L-156
     Livermore, CA 94550                  
Newsgroups: comp.edu,alt.security
From: karger@osf.org (Paul A. Karger)
Subject: Re: Computer Security - what to study to work in this field?
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:01:18 GMT

Study as much as you can about how "real systems" get built.  Security
is in many ways an exercise in making a system really behave as specified.
To do this, you need to understand how to make systems work.  Take courses
in operating systems, data base management systems, software development
methodologies, network design, performance measurement, GUIs, human factors,
etc.  

To do cryptographic algorithm design, you also need heavy mathematics, 
including group theory.  To do formal specification and verification, 
you need logic courses.

Most important of all - you need hands-on experience in building things
like operating systems.  Too many so-called secure systems have been built
that prove to be unusable, because the secure systems designers thought
all about security and formal methods and logic, and forgot to worry about
building a system that end-users would want to use.

Security is an interesting area to work in, because it has impacts in ALL
aspects of a computer system.  However, to do computer security well, you
first have to know all those aspects well. 

	- Paul  (20 years in the computer security biz)
From: ckaminsk+@pitt.edu (Curtis J Kaminski)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: An interactive tour of the Internet
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:52:23 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: ckaminsk@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu


	I work for Computing and Information services at the University of 
Pittsburgh and I am trying to find an interactive guide to the internet for
Dos users that is much like the Hypercard appliction offered by the NSF
Network Service Center (nnsc.nsf.net).   Any help would be appreciated.

Curtis Kaminski (ckaminsk@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu) 
-- 
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1481 comp.lang.fortran:3371 comp.lang.misc:2886 comp.arch:9166 sci.math:10861
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:42:06 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <1992Sep1.234106.9241@newshost.lanl.gov>, jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:

| The point is that there are anomalously *bad* programmers in
| all fields.  The question remains, what does this say about
| the quality of the CS department which graduated these examples?
| It would seem similar to a physics graduate who couldn't solve
| balance-beam statics problems.  Or a mathematician who didn't
| know that multiply was commutative.

  The point I was making is that CS and software engineering are not the
same thing, and while it's useful for practitioners of one to understand
something of the other, it's neither given nor necessary that someone
working in one field be more than casually familiar with the other.

-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
    I admit that when I was in school I wrote COBOL. But I didn't compile.
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1513 comp.lang.misc:2919
From: sabry@rice.edu (Amr Sabry)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.misc
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:25:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: rice.Bu0DI1.KFA
Reply-To: sabry@rice.edu (Amr Sabry)
Distribution: na
Organization: Rice University
Originator: sabry@datura.cs.rice.edu


In article <Bu08uF.HBC@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
|> There is generally no single algorithm optimal on all machines, so the
|> hardware considerations at least have to be known to the programmer.

Don't forget: you also need to know about the design of your car to
drive it optimally, the design of your fridge and oven are also
crucial, so is the design of your TV.
-- 
Amr Sabry				       sabry@cs.rice.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Why take time to learn when ignorance is instantaneous" -Calvin
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran
From: mjs@hubcap.clemson.edu (M. J. Saltzman)
Subject: Re: Small Language Wanted
Keywords: modular programming
Organization: Clemson University, Clemson SC
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:56:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.200552.28137@ctr.columbia.edu> shenkin@avogadro.barnard.columbia.edu (Peter S. Shenkin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.161000.6930@newshost.lanl.gov> jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
>>
>>semantically, a WHILE loop *IS* the following:
>>
>>   10 IF (cond) THEN              !WHILE
>>         ... body of loop ...
>>      GOTO 10
>>      ENDIF                       !END WHILE
>>
>>Proper commentary will elucidate this further, and you should never
>>use the label as the target of any *other* GOTO.  
>
>The authors of "Numerical Recipes" observed that it is not the GOTO that
>is the problem -- it is the label.  When you see a GOTO, you know exactly 
>what is supposed to happen.  But when you see a label, a branch to it could 
>have come from anywhere.  Using GOTOs and labels as carefully as implied 
>by Jim's last comment is one trick to writing clean, structured Fortran.

Reminds me (though I can't place the source) of the toungue-in-cheek
proposal to add a COMEFROM statement.  When it appeared in your code, you
were to assume that you arrived on a branch from a statement with the
given label.  That reversed the usual problem, since you always knew
how you could get to the statement you were looking at, but you
couldn't tell what statement would follow a statement with a label.
The implications were mind-boggling!



-- 
		Matthew Saltzman
		Clemson University Math Sciences
		mjs@clemson.edu
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Are computer "scientists" really scientists? (was: Are programmers Computer Scientists?)
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:31:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: newshost.1992Sep4.173115.3743
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory


The discussion about the objectives and role of computer "science"
brings this question to mind.  If the role of the computing "science"
department is to train programmers - then the subject is rightfully
an engineering discipline.  If the department's purpose is to 
study questions such as whether P==NP, then the subject is really
part of mathematics.  What does a computer "scientist" do that's
empirical?  The only thing I can think of is human-factors research:
but that's a subject for psychology.  The only reason for computing
to have a department of its own is if they cover this whole variety 
of subjects - and give require graduates to be well versed in *all* 
of them (at least at the undergraduate level).

-- 
J. Giles
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc
From: zkdc05@trc.amoco.com (Kelly D. Crawford)
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Originator: zkdc05@church
Organization: Amoco Production Company, Tulsa Research
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:52:56 GMT


In article <9224622.17597@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON) writes:
> meissner@osf.org (Michael Meissner) writes:
> 
> >In article <92245.124125KGZXK@ASUACAD.BITNET> Zafer KADI
> ><KGZXK@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
> >
> >| I have been on both sides of issue (I have MS's in both Mech.Eng CS)
> >| 
> >| There is no one wrong or right on the issue of :
> >| 
> >| 1. FORTRAN or anyother language.
> >|    All you Computer Science major that think Fortran is so bad    can
> >| you tell me anyother language that has all the forms of numbers
> >| that the scinetist use such as integers, real numbers and COMPLEX
> >| numbers.
> >
> >C++.
> 
> Exactly. What's more, with C++ I can have arbitrary precision integers,
> arbitrary precision rational numbers, fixed point real numbers, etc.
> (all of these are available using GNU's libg++). If you want
> quaternions, then it's no big deal to add them too.
> 
> Of course there is no single language that will please everybody, but IMHO
> teaching new CS students Fortran is not making the best use of the
> limited course time available.
>

With trillions of lines of existing Fortran in the scientific marketplace, it is a
travesty not to teach CS students Fortran sometime during their education.
I'm not trying to argue language merits here, but just pointing out that I
know many CS majors that have no clue about Fortran ("Oh, I've heard lots
of bad things about it.") and are lost when it comes to having to work with
existing code.  Perhaps not an entire class, but they need to have some basic
familiarity with it, just because of the high likelihood that they will run into it
sometime during their career.

Kelly

-- 
Kelly D. Crawford             | Amoco Production Research | These are my own
kcrawford@trc.amoco.com       | 4502 East 41st Street     | opinions, not
phone: (918) 660-4043         | Tulsa, OK  74102          | Amoco's...
          >>> *** This line intentionally left blank *** <<<
Xref: sparky comp.edu:1455 comp.lang.fortran:3345 comp.lang.misc:2852 comp.arch:9133 sci.math:10810
From: mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Re: Small Language Wanted
Keywords: modular programming
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:08:14 GMT
Reply-To: mstemper@ems.cdc.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <8749@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil>, mcohen@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil (Marty Cohen) writes:
|> Dave Tholen writes:
|> >And if the elimination of computed GO TOs will
                              ********
|> >help make FORTRAN more structured, then you can simply not use them.
|> In Fortran 77 there is no way to code a while loop without using a GOTO.

No, of course there isn't. The discussion was about computer go to's.

-- 
#include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
Michael F. Stemper
Power Systems Consultant
mstemper@ems.cdc.com
From: azhao@cs.arizona.edu (Qiang Alex Zhao)
Newsgroups: fcs.info-csnet,fcs.info-nets,comp.edu
Subject: Help in finding email addresses... Any database?
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:57:40 GMT
Followup-To: fcs.info-csnet
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Univ of Arizona, Tucson

Hi,

I need help in finding out the email addresses of the following
institution:

	Computer Science, East Tennessee State Univ
	Computer Science, Univ of Toronto, Canada
	System/Industrial Engi, Univ of Waterloo, Canada

Any help will be highly appreciated. By the way, is there a database or
automatic server out there for looking up information like email
addresses of educational/research institutions?

-- 
= Qiang Alex Zhao		   Computer Science Department
  azhao@cs.arizona.edu             University of Arizona
  (602) 621-1815                   Tucson, AZ 85721
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
Subject: Re: Small Language Wanted
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:05:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.134143@IASTATE.EDU>, btd@IASTATE.EDU (Benjamin T Dehner) writes:
|> [...]
|> 	No, often the code is not really meant to be used by other people.
|> Then when it does start getting spread around, ...

Sort of like UNIX and C for example?

-- 
J. Giles
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:17:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Distribution: na

In article ... KGZXK@ASUACAD.BITNET (Zafer KADI) writes:

   There is no one wrong or right on the issue of :

   1. FORTRAN or anyother language.
      All you Computer Science major that think Fortran is so bad    can
   you tell me anyother language that has all the forms of numbers
   that the scinetist use such as integers, real numbers and COMPLEX
   numbers. 

Just to keep the record straight: Common Lisp and Poplog Pop11 both have
integers, floats, and complexes. They also have ratios. Scheme has them all in
the standard, but an implementation need only provide a coherent subset. 

But this doesn't mean that I'm suggesting ``scientists'' (now *there's* an
abstract term!) should write in Pop.
--

Regards, Kers.              | ``Remember Thor Five!'' (Earthman, Come Home)
From: LDD1_MAIL@ECC.TASED.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: Keyboarding?
Date: 24 Aug 92 02:28:00 GMT

Hello,

The letter that follows was listed on 2 or 3 listservers recently and one of the
helpful repondants (Phil Calvert - thanks Phil) suggested that I post the letter
with  Usenet newsgroup bulletin board (if that's what they are called!). Here I
am, posting the said letter, and hopeful that many of you may share your
experiences with us here in Tasmania, Australia.

By the way, I don't have direct access to the newsgroup so could replies be
sent to my e-mail address:

LDD1_Mail@ecc.tased.edu.au

Here's the original letter:


Lauderdale Primary School
3 Acton Road
Lauderdale
Tasmania   7021
Australia

Hi,

We are a primary school of around 700 children.

We are wrestling with a problem that perhaps has confronted many schools,
and we would like some help. Our problem is our attempt to address the
question of "keyboarding skills" (whatever they may be). We have a
computer in each of our classrooms, but no computer lab (nor a spare
classroom to set one up).

We have relied, in the past, on children just acquiring these skills through
constant usage. But this does not appear to be effective, nor efficient. The
demands currently on reasonable speed and accuracy by the later primary
years (9-12 years old) are such that our children need to be more fluent.
Involvement in telecommunications places more stress on our response
ability.

Many of our teachers are asking what can be done? We are seeking help and
ideas from those who have attempted to solve the same problem  ( if you
have had this problem!) in your own school environment.

Have you had this problem?
What have you found to work in your school?
How have you attempted to develop a whole school plan to tackle this
problem?
Has one strategy been more successful than another?
What do the typing communities within you school think about this?

We would love to hear from you and your terrific ideas.

It might be that I could collate the responses and list them together later.

Once again, thanks for your help,

Bernard Hoggett

LDD1_Mail@ecc.tased.edu.au
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:38:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.224003.1841@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:
|> [...]
|> Argl. There are better n^2 algorithms out there, for example insertion
|> sort, and that is as short to implement.

Yes, when I need a sort that I can write without thinking, I always use
insertion sort - it's easier to remember (for me) than bubble sort is.
If the sort consumes a significant amount of time though - I look at
a wide variety and pick the one best suited to the particular program.

-- 
J. Giles
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: jsvrc@rc.rit.edu (Doctor FORTRAN)
Subject: Re: Small Language Wanted
Followup-To: alt.flame
Originator: jsvrc@rcmain.rc.rit.edu
Organization: RIT Research Corp
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:39:56 GMT

In article <17ck07INN24b@network.ucsd.edu> mbk@lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) writes:

> . . . . Bad C code is bad in truly awful ways.

"Good" C code is bad in truly awful ways, too.

As for eliminating computed GOTOs, to say nothing of arithmetic IFs (yuck!),
I say it's better to keep 'em, but strongly discourage their use. There's a
lot of old code out there that contains these archaic constructs (and there's
even more not-so-old code out there that contains the soon-to-be archaic
non-computed, unleaded GOTO). Keep the old constructs for compatability's
sake; encourage the use of the more modern constructs for new code.

==Doctor FORTRAN
From: tom@cse.fau.edu (Tom Horton)
Newsgroups: comp.edu
Subject: wanted: handout on basics of scholarly writing
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:24:50 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

I teach in a Computer Science and Engineering department, and in the
last few terms I have become more and more aware of how many of our
students do not know the basics of quotations, citations, plagiarism
and using reference lists in scholarly writing.  (This is especially
true of our graduate students who come to us with technical degrees
from other countries, such as India or China.)

I started to write a short handout on this topic (say, two pages or
so?) based on Mary-Claire van Leunen's book *A Handbook for Scholars*
(my favorite reference on this), but it occurred to me that perhaps
someone else out there already has such a document that they'd be
willing to let me adapt.  (Or even plagiarize!).  Again, my students
are not humanities majors, so I really do need something that might
seem pretty basic to a humanities scholar or a composition teacher.

Let me know if you have something I can have.  Thanks!
Tom

PS I'm really not trying to start a discussion on why students in
science or engineering ought to take more writing courses.  I'd tend
to agree.  Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that this will change
here, especially for our students at the graduate level.
--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Thomas B. Horton, Assistant Professor
Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering, Florida Atlantic University
Boca Raton, FL 33431  USA        Phone:  407/367-2674   FAX: 407/367-2800
Internet:  tom@cse.fau.edu       Bitnet: HortonT@fauvax
Newsgroups: comp.edu
From: zweben@linguine.cis.ohio-state.edu (Stu Zweben)
Subject: Re: Revocation of accreditation?
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:32:35 GMT

In article <5447@naucse.cse.nau.edu> rrw@elden.cse.nau.edu (Bob Wier) writes:
>What with serious cutbacks being experienced in a number
>of programs in higher education (including here), I wonder
>if anyone can say whether there has been any history of
>an early review or revocation of accreditation by some
>of the usual bodies.  Since this is comp.edu, for example
>would CSAB or ABET come in and reevaluate a program early
>(say it had received a "6R") if cutbacks resulted in 1/2
>the faculty being let go?
>
>THANKS
>

Both CSAB and ABET have procedures for handling complaints that a 
currently accredited program may no longer meet the criteria.  This
involves an investigation of the complaint (which must be signed), and
possibly a site visit if it appears necessary to get to the bottom of
the matter.  These procedures can lead to revocation of accreditation.

Stu Zweben
Ohio State University
CSAB Past President