From: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: Re: Vote for 3rd party/no-party candidates!!!
Reply-To: ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 18:47:29 GMT


This item was originally supposed to be posted on sci.econ, soc.culture.usa,
alt.amateur-comp, and alt.activism - but
the alt.amateur-comp and alt.activism designations didn't post because of 
a typo - so I am reposting this to those two groups
 
In a previous article, ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben) says:

>
>In a previous article, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) says:
>
>>In article <1992Oct9.233958.8835@news.ysu.edu> ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben) writes:
>>>
>>>In a previous article, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) says:
>>>
>>> {Decreasing work hours always increases productivity}
>>>
>>>If there were a law, however, the company who wanted higher standards
>>>to be more productive would have help policing his recalcitrant 
>>>competitors.
>>>
>>In other words, the increase in productivity, if any, is not offset by
>>the increased costs of hiring more workers, paying more payroll 
>>taxes and health benefits, &c.  Companies that do attempt this
>>need Big Brother to beat up more efficient companies.
>>
>This has been the historical experience in England for example with 
>the 10 Hours Bill - in the U.S. with all social legislation including
>the Wages and Hours Laws, the prohibitions against child labor,
>unemployment laws and social security. If one depends on the 
>voluntary efforts of companies one ends up with no social legislation
>and with wages and hours at such a low level that there is no
>incentive to install machinery.
>
>>Seems to me like hours are something employers and employees are perfectly
>>capable of working out for themselves.  When I was working my way
>
>The U.S. Supreme Court in the decision in Holden vrs Hardy (169 U.S. 366)1898
>explained why this is NOT something that employers and employees can
>work out for themselves.
>
>They wrote:
>
>    "The legislature has also recognized the fact, which the experience
>     of legislators in many states has corroborated, that the proprietors
>     of these establishments and their operatives do not stand upon an
>     equality, and that their interests are, to a certain extent, conflicting.
>     The former naturally desire to obtain as much labor as possible from
>     their employees, while the latter are often induced by fear of discharge
>     to conform to the regulations which their judgment, fairly exercised,
>     would pronounce to be detrimental to their health or strength.
>     In other words, the proprietors lay down the rules and the laborers
>     are practically constrained to obey them. In such cases self interest 
>     is often an unsafe guide, and the legislature may promptly impose
>     its authority.
>
>>thorugh school, I was GLAD to get a job with 60 and 70 hour weeks,
>
>An earlier part of the decision explains why there is often a need
>for the society to pass a law that will protect the health and safety
>of the people of that society - even if there will be reasons that the
>individuals would do otherwise as you note above:
>
>The decision explains:
>
>    Though reasonable doubts may exist as to the power of the legislature
>    to pass a law, or as to whether the law is calculated or adapted to 
>    promote the health, safety, or comfort of the people, or to secure
>    good order, or promote the general welfare, we must resolve them in favor
>    of the right of that department of government."
>
>You might feel you had to work in very unsafe working conditions because
>you needed to save money to go to school - but hopefully you live in
>a society where the government will ban these unsafe working conditions 
>to prevent you from being hurt because you made a mistake.
>
>Sadly in Michigan recently, a college student at Henry Ford Community
>College was working during the summer at a job which was dangerous
>and he ended up dying as a result of that. The problem was that the
>enforcement of the health and safety laws in Michigan put him in
>that position - and those who try to fight against such unsafe 
>conditions are often penalized or left for years fighting in the 
>courts. 
>
>So somehow there is a need for laws that protect workers from the 
>abuses that will develop otherwise.
>
>>At other times in my life, I'd be happy working 15 or 20 hours and
>>riding my bike or backpacking the rest of the time.
>
>
>>
>>If shorter hours are more productive, companies will implement them
>>of their own accord.  If employees value more free time and somewhat
>
>But basically companies don't  - just as they don't offer social 
>security or unemployment on their own - those are social obligations
>of the government of the society.
>
>>less pay, they can negotiate that.  The UAW was nearly on a 4-day week
>
>Are you referring to the paid personal days that were in the UAW
>contracts in the 1970's (through 1982)? I don't know of 4-day weeks
>expcept for 10 hour days for some companies - which is not really
>an advance as far as I understand it.
>
>But the paid personal days were an advance of sorts - and the result was
>that the auto companies put in new machinery -and then fought to end the
>paid personal days 
>
>
>>for a while.  Why does the government need to mandate what consenting
>>adults are willing to agree to?
>
>The question assumes that employees and employers have the same interests -
>not the conflicting interests that the Holden vrs Hardy Supreme Court
>decision explained was the case and is the premise behind the need for
>mandatory government regulation - behind the need for a legislature that
>enacts laws, etc.
>
>>-- 
>>Don McGregor             | "I..I blame society.  Society made me  
>>mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu|  what I am."
>>
>
>Ronda
>-- 
>Ronda Hauben                    email address:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu
>Amateur Computerist Newsletter              or
>P.O. Box 4344                   rhauben@heartland.bradley.edu
>Dearborn, MI 48126
>
-- 
Ronda Hauben                    email address:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu
Amateur Computerist Newsletter              or
P.O. Box 4344                   rhauben@heartland.bradley.edu
Dearborn, MI 48126
Newsgroups: alt.amateur-comp