From: snreee@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: A ThEvaaram verse (translation)
Reply-To: snreee@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:45:12 GMT

In article <C1F3t2.BwG@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>In article <9301230015.AA19063@cec2.wustl.edu> sp2@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>In a previous article mvishnu@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>>
>>> In a previous article sp2@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>
>>>>  `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>>>   veesu  thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>>>   moosu  vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>>>   eesan  endhai  iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>>
>>>>     The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
>>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
>>>> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
>>>> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
>>
>>
  
 
>>  (stuff deleted)             
>
>
>       The song 'maasil vINaiym..' is certainly by appar perumaan.
>
>>
>>>>   maasil veeNaiyum -  What does it mean here ? What is
>>>>                       a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>>>>                       Veena is a musical instrument.
>>>>                       I don't understand this comparison
>>>>                       here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>>>>                       the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>>>>                       music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>>>>                       Was Carnatic music developed in the
>>>>                       days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>>
>>>maasil = maasu + il  (flaw + not). 
>>>veeNai == a South Indian musical instrument 
>>>Hence it means flawless veeNai music.   
>>
>>  (stuff deleted)
>> 
>
>     Meenan's translation is quite correct. maasu + il means
>     'kuRRam illaatha'. Please note the popular names
>     'maasilaamaNi' ( meaning 'flawlwess gem'). My mother used to
>     say that 'A.M. storil paruppu vaanginaa maasu maru irukkaathu'
>     ( = if you buy 'paruppu' in A.M. Store, it will be without
>      any adulteration and without stones etc..). 
>     As Ramanan says in a post 'maasilaa nilavE..' is another
>    popular song; 'maasaRu ponnE..' is a very popular thaalaattu vari.
>    
>    However, there is a hidden meaning for 'maasil vINai' which is
>    'spine'.  
>>
>>    [ some deleted]
>
>>>>   moosu vaNdaRaip poykai - I know that `poykai' means a `pond'.
>>>>                            What is `moosu vaNdaRai' ? I was lost
>>>>                            here...
>>
>>> moosu == cuNNaampu (?), lime
>>> moosu vaNdaRai == lime room (?)  (see below for explanation)
>>> poykai == pond
>>
>>  I differ from you here. I don't think this is a correct translation
>> for `moosu vaNdaRai poykai..'. I see that you have tried to translate
>> this part with Appar's history.. I thought in the lines, what if this
>> was written by Maanikaa Vaasagar and I tried to translate it in that
>> case and I have some ideas now..
>>
>>   I have not seen the meaning `chuNNaambu' for `moosu' and I do see
>> the question mark you have put for this meaning.. This word `moosu'
>> is from `moochchu' meaning `breath'. Hence a good meaning that one
>> can get for `moosu' is `lively'. I think you have interpreted 
>> `vaNdaRai' as `a lime room' [ with a question mark, meaning unsure]
>> I think a good meaning for `vaNdaRai' is `vaNdu + thuRai' meaning
>> the `place of bees'. Hence `moosu vaNdaRai poykai' may be translated 
>> as
>>
>>  moosu vaNdaRai poykai == moosu (lively) + vaNdu(bees) + thuRai (place)
>>                           + poykai (pond)
>>                        == A pond, where lively bees wander in joy
>
>       Sundara Pandian's meaning as above is not correct; see below.
>>
>>> pOnRathu == it is like, identical to, same as 
>>
>>> It means "The lime room is (cool) like a pond."
>
>         Well, the words 'mUsu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRathE' seems to
>         have been the most difficult line. Let me explain a bit.
>         The word 'mUsu' comes from the verb 'mUsal' or 'mUsuthal'.
>         mUsal means 'saathal' (= to die), 'moyththal' ( = to surround
>         like bees), 'Usi(p)pOthal' ( the snacks becoming unfit to
>         eat ; remeber the vadai giving  rise to 'webs' after the 'due
>         date'..).
>         Thus I would say the prime meaning of 'mUsu' or 'moosu' is 
>        'death-giving'. ( moosuthal for 'uruNdai or vadai' also means
>         the stuff bhas become 'dead' and hence unfit to eat)
>
>         vaNdaRai means 'chuNNambu aRai' because
>         one of the meanings of 'vaNdu' is 'conch shell' ( = sangu).
>         ( the semantic root for vaNdu = sangu appears to be the
>         'hard' shell; 'vaN' means hard ). Other meanings such as
>         'a death cell filled with posionous stinging 'vaNdu' is
>         also possible. But the traditional meaning of 'chuNNaambu
>         kaLavaai' can not be discounted.  
>>
>>

          Thanks for this explanation. However, is "vaNdu" used for
          sangu in the literature? What does the dictionaries say?
          May be "moosu vaNdu" is a pure Tamil word for visha vaNdu
          as you are suggesting by "poisonous stinging vaNdu".
          In any case, the general meaning of "moosu vaNdaRai" is 
          becoming clear now.
>>>Like flaw-less veeNa (music)
>>>And Like the (pleasant) evening moon
>>>And Like flowing breeze
>>>And Like  luxuriant and lively spring season 
>>>And Even lime room is like a cool pond 
>>>When I am at the shelter of my Lord's feet.
>> 
>> [ Meenan Vishnu's historical details on Appar deleted.. ]
>>
>>> Meenan Vishnu
>>
>>  [ revised meaning of SP deleted ]
>>
> 
>      The translation given by Meenan Vishnu is quite accurate.
>
>       anbudan
>       -Selva
>
    I think "the sheltor of Lord's feet is like the cool (lime room like)
    pond" is the right meaning.

         anban
         Ramanan

>P.S. If we substitute 'God' for 'Isan' this song can be applicable to
>     any religion. It is a very beautiful song ! This was a
>     prayer song in Raja Muthiah high School in Raja Annamalai Puram
>     near Adyar in Madras, when I studied there; I don't know whether it is
>     still a prayer song there..
>     
>
>