From: james@csn.org (Jim Phillips)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SUMMARY: How to buy a used revolver. (kinda long)
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:56 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.


Thanks again for all the help.  The responses have stopped comming
so it's time to post a summary.  I hope I got the references correct.
There is a lot of redundantcy in the posts.  I would consolidate the
info if I felt qualified.  If someone else has the knowledge and the
time, please feel free to do so.  I have just included all the replies.

thanks
james

======================================================================== 
#From webdw@cbnews.att.com Thu Oct 29 12:46:26 1992

Check the cylinder tightness both back & forth and longitudinally.
If possible fire the gun at least six times to ensure that all
cylinders are aligned (misalignment will cause fliers and bad
misalignment will cause shaving at the forcing cone on unjacketed
bullets).  Check the cylinder tightness when gun is at cocked
position; it should be tightly locked when a revolver is cocked.

Check the DA pull very slowly; that will make obvious any hitches
or rough spots.

With a bore light verify that the rifling is clean & crisp - once in
a while an otherwise good looking gun has been subjected to thousands
of hot rounds with jacketed bullets and the barrel is badly worn.  Also
check the crane fit when closed; there should not be any large gaps and
the action should close crisply and open without difficulty.

Try to find out the previous owner - sometimes that info. is available.

Most of the time, a used name brand gun will save you money.

BDW
=========================================================================
#From hejl@asl.dl.nec.com Thu Oct 29 13:08:14 1992

Well, other than the basic cosmetic things there are a number of things to
look for.  The first thing I would look for was gas cutting on the top
strap.  This will give a good indication on just how "used" the gun is and
what type of loads have been run through it.  Check the barrel carefully
for bulges, rust, and gas erosion on the forcing cone.  Check the side
plate screws for burs which is giveaway that a DIYer or incompetent 'smith
has worked on it.

Next, I'd check the cyl/barrel gap with a brass feeler guage.  There
should be no more than about .009" gap and the cylinder should rotate
without hanging with the feeler guage in place.  The less gap, the better.
Cylinder end play isn't a worry with a Smith, it can easily be corrected
with shims.

Next, I'd check the forcing cone with one of Brownell's plug guages.  The
forcing cone is critical to accuracy and lead spitting.  You'll need two
if you're going to look at Smiths and Rugers - 18 deg for smith and 5 deg
for Ruger (about $23 each).  About 25% of the S&W revolvers I've seen have
had the forcing cone over cut which is *bad* - you can't recut it without
setting the barrel back (expensive).  About 75% of the Rugers I've seen
have been over cut and, worse, Rugers can't be recut to the more optimal
11 degree angle (re. Ron Power).  IMO, this is the *primary* reason that
Smiths are generally more accurate than Rugers.

Look for drag marks on the trigger and hammer where they drag on the frame
(there shouldn't be *any* drag marks).

Check the timing by resting your thumb on the cylinder and sloooowly
pulling the trigger.  Be sure the cylinder latches just before the hammer
falls. (Unloaded, of course.)

Now, if you're money conscious, Used 686s, for example, run about $275 at
the gun shows here.  A new one cost $309.  IMO, for the money, I'd get a
new one.  Same for a Python or (gasp!) a Ruger.

Hope this helps...
-- 

=========================================================================
From: B7TW000 <B7TW@musicb.mcgill.ca>

Dear James,
    Buying an used revolver is a good way of getting a good quality
to price ratio on a serviceable weapon. The question is: What type of
revolver do you want to aquire ? If you intend to do mainly plinking,
a .22 would probably be a good choice because the ammunition is inex-
pensive BUT: .22's are very often the worst maintained weapons so beware

    On the other hand, if you are interested into bigger calibers or you
plan to use the revolver as a potential defence weapon, then a good
choice is a .357 from S&W or Colt, or if you are lucky enough to find
one, a French MR-73. The adventage is that you can fire both the .357 or
the cheaper, less agressive .38 special in a revolver chambered for the
.357 magnum. On the colt (Python), the cylinder lock is slightly offset
with respect to the center of the frame and therefore more prone to
premature wear if not carefully maintained: BEWARE!

    Finally, if you interest is mainly for collection purpose, any
member of the big Webley military revolvers in .455 are nice, robust
and reliable revolvers that are among the best in stopping power if
you use the non-jacketed bullets or better, the so-called "Manstopper"
bullet. An other interesting inexpensive alternative is the French
revolver d'ordonnance Mle 1892 in 8 mm 92. it features a cylinder that
swings open to the right wich is rather unusual but very useful in the
case of cavalery use. The mechanism is extremely simple and reliable and
can be easily accessed and dissasembled. it has the reputation of being
extremely accurate but lacks a little bit of stopping power. You may
also be S.O.L. in terms of finding the appropriate ammunition.

   I hope that this answers your question.
                                                J. Hamier

=========================================================================
#From breck@aim.com Thu Oct 29 18:47:47 1992

There was an article in a recent American Rifleman by Finn Agaard on what
to look for in used revolvers.  He bought a used police service revolver
that a local police department had retired when it went to a semi-auto.

You are a member of the NRA aren't you?

=========================================================================
#From viking@iastate.edu Thu Oct 29 22:54:25 1992
Jim,

	Here's some advice on purchasing your used revolver.  If you
find it worthwhile, feel free to post it to rec.guns as one of your
e-mail replies.  You *are* going to post a summary, aren't you?

	First, look for the obvious finish problems both inside and
outside.  Pitting in the barrel?  That dispensed with, rotate the
cylinder on half-cock and feel for play in the cylinder.  It should
not move forwards or backwards to any appreciable degree, and the
clicks of the cylinder rotating lever should be crisp and clean.  Try
to rotate it the opposite direction.  There should not be much play
between feeling pressure and a full stop.

	Cock the gun (you safed it hours ago I hope).  Try to wiggle
the cylinder.  Try to wiggle the hammer from side to side.  Slowly
uncock it, pressing to the side on the hammer.  Feel for any sort of
slop in the action as you do this.  Hold it up to a light and note
the small gap at the front of the cylinder.  Place it on half-cock and
see if it grows much.  Place it on full cock and see if it shrinks again.
The difference between the loose and tight settings should be small.

	Remove the cylinder.  Look for wear on the detents that serve
to rotate and lock the cylinder as the action is worked.  Check the
fingers inside the gun for wear and slop in movement.  Check the barrel
for signs of uneven wear ahead of the cylinder.  If it's worn, you need
to have that gun tuned so haggle another $50 or better off the price.

	Check the rod that the cylinder slides on, and inside the
cylinder.  If either are pitted, that gun hasn't been cleaned well in
its lifetime.  If you feel safe doing so, hank the trigger assembly
and look for rust and pitting signs.  Many never clean their guns
too thoroughly, and here's where it will show up.  You might also
look where the barrel passes through the frame -- that's a tight spot
and anotehr good place for poor cleaning habits to show up.

	Now that you have it apart, are there any shims or milling
marks in evidence?  Both show the gun has been tuned, so let the
quality of the work tell you if it was done by a smith or by a guy
with a Dremel moto-tool.

	Check the screws.  There should be some signs of them having
been removed and tightened previously.  Scratches in the finish,
and the like.  If they have slanted or rounded edges where the
screwdriver fits in, the guy either torqued them down a lot or else
didn't know how to disassemble his gun.  Neither bodes well.  Look
at the threads for any signs of stretching or warping from ham-fisted
people with screwdrivers.  If the thing has pins, they should slide
in and out with positive stops.  Not so tight you need a punch and hammer,
but certainly not loose.

	Wiggle, jiggle, and pry everything with your hands.  Look for
any shoddiness of clearance and tolerance.  You expect some wear,
but if the thing feels like it's out of tune, it is.  How far it's
out of tune a smith will know, but it's easier to do a bit of
tweaking than have to tune a new part when the old is too worn.

	I always check out guns with a pen-sized flashlight and a
jewlers glass.  This gets only those selling inferior guns nervous.
If he starts apologizing for something you've overlooked, just give
a non-committal "uh-huh" and don't let him know you over-looked it.

	You should do all right.  Revolvers are simple to evaluate
compared to semi-autos.  Just see that things fit and aren't too
worn and that it looks like it's been taken care of.


=========================================================================
#From sjo@sunsrvr1.cci.com Fri Oct 30 08:37:31 1992

	There are a lot of things to look for when purchasing a
revolver, even when they're new (the parts may not have been fitted
properly.)

	With the cylinder in the frame, hold back the hammer and
pull the trigger.  Now gently try to rotate the cylinder.  This
insures the chambers of the cylinder line up with the bore properly.
A little play is ok.  I'm not quite sure how much is too much, though,
as I typically go with someone who knows more about this than I do, 
and I've never found one that was too far out.

	With the hammer held back and the trigger pulled, check the
distance between the face of the cylinder and the forcing cone of
the barrel with a feeler guage.  I believe the gap should be
between .005" and .007".

	Check the forcing cone to insure it's within the specified
tolerances.  Brownells sells a drop in guage with two lines denoting
the extremes in the tolerances (don't know the price.  Sorry.)
If both lines disappear, the barrel will need to be replaced.

	A good gun shop will check the gun when it comes in to make
sure it's safe to shoot.  To find a good, reputable dealer I'd
suggest talking to some of the local enthusiasts to see who they
recommend.  I make it a rule to never purchase a gun from a shop
that doesn't have smithing fascilities.  Usually these places will
cost more, but they'll be more likely to fix your gun or help you
in other ways that will save you money in the long run.

Some of them <salespersonsaren't so bad.  You've just got to know who you're
dealing with.  In the shop I always do business with, I usually go through
a salesman/dealer there named Phil.  I walked in and out of there several
times before actually purchasing my King Cobra, and each time I did he
spent probably 15-20 minutes showing me pistols and answering my
questions.

	This is another good point.  A reputable shop will have a staff
that's not just there to sell guns.  The staff is into the shooting
sports, do most of their own work on their guns, and know their stuff.
For example, I dealt through another salesman at this same shop last
night when I purchased an Austrailian SMLE in the .303 British caliber.
I checked the rifle over before I took it to the counter to insure it
was well cared for, had a good bore, etc.  When I walked up to the
counter with it, the salesman looked it over, told me it was built in
1941, rebuilt in 1944, then proceeded to strip it down to check the
bore and action himself before selling it to me (I couldn't check the
dates until I got home and looked the markings up in a book!)  Now
*that's* service.

	Again, it may cost more, but I think it's worth it.

	Most of these places won't sell you a gun that's not safe to
shoot, as they would lose their shirts in a lawsuit if they did.
However, just as in buying a used car, a little knowledge can help you
find a good gun at a bargain price.

=========================================================================

#From
csn!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!haven.umd.e
du!mimsy!nw4ep.att.com Fri Oct 30 17:41:07 MST 1992

The problems I noted after playing with my first used revolver
purchase all centered around the cylinder motion. My Webly .455
(converted to .45 auto-rim) had a LOT of rotary motion in the
cylinder. Grab the cylinder and try to rotate it (they ALL seem to
move a little in the uncocked state). Now cock the hammeer and see 
how much it moves, which should be VERY LITTLE (hundredths of an inch).
Now drop the hammer gently while pulling the trigger. The cylinder 
should be locked tightly in position. Hopefully, in this position,
the chamber will be exactly lined up with the forcing cone.

	Hope this helps.
	
		David L. Pope
		
=========================================================================

#From
csn!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!haven.umd.e
du!mimsy!marune.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Oct 30 17:46:40 MST 1992

I don't claim to be an expert on this one, but I have bought
(and resold) a few used revolvers over the years. My
experience is almost entirely Smith & Wesson double action
revolvers, so your Colt, Charter Arms, Dan Wesson, Ruger, etc. 
mileage may vary (although a lot of the principles apply).

1.) Unless it is very heavily used or has been fired with corrosive
    ammo, most post war revolvers tend to have pretty nice barrels
    (i.e. rifling is sharp, crisp, and distinct). Still, #1 check
    the bore for wear or abuse. Check the muzzle for unusal wear
    as well.

2.) Check the cylinder gap between the cylinder and the back of
    the barrel. The gap should be tight enough that you can barely
    perceive light (I believe I've seen that this gap should
    be ~.006" or less from what I remember -- actually, I judge
    them by appearance without any gap gauge). Make sure there
    is no unusual wear on the front of the cylinder to indicate
    that the rear of the barrel is touching the cylinder at any point.

3.) Check just above the cylinder gap to see if any gas erosion
    of the frame has taken place. Note that there may well be
    crud, what you are looking for is *cutting* (i.e. an eroded
    groove in the top strap). You may well have to borrow cleaning
    materials from the shop keep to wipe accumulated crud off
    to determine if there is top strap cutting. Note that large
    quantities of crud can be indicative in & of themselves.
    It can indicate that there is a lot of lead splash from the
    cylinder gap (could indicate bad timing). Or it can indicate
    that the previous owner was a slob and may be indicative of
    the care the revolver received (or lack thereof).

4.) Check the rear of the cylinder where the notches are for 
    a wear ring. A large amount of wear (brightness or in
    advanced cases an actual groove) can indicate that this
    cylinder has "been around". This wear is caused by the
    small (usually rounded) latching post at the bottom
    of the frame (I forget at the moment the actual S&W term
    for this part). The part serves to lock the cylinder
    in place when the hammer is cocked (to help assure
    proper alignment).

5.) Check the locking lugs on the extractor star (at the
    rear of the cylinder with the cylinger open). These
    lugs should not have a rounded worn appearance or any
    chips missing. Some toolmarks may be evident and might
    be OK (newer stuff doesn't seem to get the same level of
    polish). Work the extractor star in and out of the
    cylinder a few times to determine if the extractor
    rod might be bent or unusually resistant.

6.) Close the cylinder (presuming safe gun practices and
    the revolver is unloaded of course). Now, I usually
    hold the grip with one hand and wrap my hand around the
    base of the frame (just below the cylinder). Now, I take
    my thumb and index finger and grip the cylinder. Then,
    I *lightly* try to wiggle the cylinder back and forth.
    With the revolver locked up, it should not have an 
    excessive amount of play (judgement call here). During this
    whole sequence, make sure you keep the revolver pointed
    in a safe direction.

7.) In the case of a stainless revolver, some idea of range
    use *might* be obtainable by the blackening of the
    front of the cylinder. This doesn't mean much for
    two reasons. First, it happens after firing relatively
    small quantities of ammunition through the revolver
    and may not be indicative of heavy use. Second, some
    products such as "Flitz" are reputed to be fairly 
    effective in removing it.

8.) With the cylinder open, check the cylinder walls of
    all five or six chambers for anything unusual. Some
    light evidence of toolmarks from the original reaming
    of the chambers is OK. A ring of crud toward the front
    of the cylinders probably is lead and powder build up.
    I'd try to see if you can remove it before purchasing
    to make sure it isn't hiding any defects (rare
    in my experience).

9.) Check the recoil shield/plate (part of the frame) at
    the rear of the cylinder (again cylinder is open).
    You might see a wear streak caused by the spring loaded
    center pin in the cylinder (located at the center of
    the extractor star). If the revolver has been opened
    and relatched extensively, this might be a groove.
    A groove here (as opposed to a wear streak) may well
    indicate a lot of use.

10.) Close the cylinder and with the gun pointed in a safe
     direction, cock it. Examine the firing pin (attached to the
     hammer) for chips or cracks. It should be fairly smooth
     and rounded. In the case of a Smith & Wesson, you can
     cock the revolver with the cylinder open by first
     pulling the cylinder latch rearward and at the same time,
     cock the revolver, should you desire to check things
     with the cylinder open.

11.) The next bit is touchy. I like to single cycle the action all
     the way around the cylinder (by manually cocking the revolver
     and then easing the hammer back down) at least once.
     You are looking for "sticky" spots or other oddities
     which are indicative of bad timing of the cylinder.
     (I also like to check the play of the cylinder at each
     stop to make sure there isn't excessive play for that
     chamber). See item #6 above for details. The reason I say
     this is touchy is that a lot of folks & dealers get
     paranoid about your doing this (especially on new guns).
     I do it for everything, or I don't buy it. New guns
     are as (more in some cases) susceptible to bad timing
     as often as used revolvers. Sometimes when someone
     won't let you do this it means they have something to hide
     (*not* always). I wouldn't do this if you aren't fairly
     certain you're going to buy the revolver. I would also
     ask first (especially at a gun show). I *would not*
     ask to dry fire the revolver. I try to get an idea
     for the trigger pull by cocking the revolver (pointed
     in a safe direction once more) and "catching" the hammer fall
     with my thumb (which is on the hammer during the whole
     process). This gives me a feel for the trigger without
     (generally) pissing off the owner or shop keep (many folks
     intensely dislike "dry firing" as a practice). I'm not
     so keen on dry firing when evaluating a purchase myself.

12.) Check the muzzle of the barrel for blue wear indicative
     of holstering & reholstering the gun. I have often seen
     guns with a *lot* of blue wear (mainly ex-police revolvers)
     which were mechanically mint. They were carried a lot, but
     not fired much.

13.) Check for rebluing. Check by examining the original stamped
     lettering (i.e. "Smith & Wesson", "357 Magnum", the
     serial number, etc.). Look at a new revolver in a shop
     to get an idea what the original blue and lettering should
     look like. This lettering should be crisp,
     not smoothed and rounded looking (also true of what 
     are normally sharp corners and edges). Especially, look
     for pitting *under* the blued finish. Checking for 
     rebluing can be an art in some (well done) cases.

Well, I guess that's enough for now, I'll try to see if there's
anything to add (I didn't even get into checking the
sights (for revolvers with adjustable sights)). Check the grips
for cracks (in the case of wood), etc. 

Now, believe it or not, assuming a well cared for revolver,
most of this stuff can be completed in less than a minute
or two (with experience). Don't let the seller rush you,
take your time to look things over before you buy.

I hope this helps.


=========================================================================
#From dionj@netcom.com Sat Oct 31 09:21:41 1992

WIggle the cylinder.  How much slop and play?
Compare to a new gun.
When you cock it slowly, be sure the cylinder clicks
into place as the hammer latches (Colts are notoriously
bad about this).
Look at general wear in the drag line around the cylinder, mark
the indexer makes.  Look at wear on side and front of hammer.
You want a pistol that has not been shot a lot.
If you find one you really like, spend a few bucks to
have your (independent) gunsmith check it out.
Good luck!



-- 
 James K. Phillips       Sprocket Scientist     james@pvi.com 
  Precision Visuals, Inc.                       james@teal.csn.org
  6230 Lookout Rd      				
  Boulder, CO 80301    				(303) 530-9000 x308