HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: A Taste of Culture
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:07:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.133808.224@gems.vcu.edu> kkenny@gems.vcu.edu (Karen Kenny aka Mel) writes:
>If you are humor-impaired, tell someone _else_!

As those of you who are long-time readers know, I am
completely without humor - it gets stated here so often
that it must be true.
--
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 1 Jan 93 18:09:13 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison

In article <C06p8o.DxK@NCoast.ORG> brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan
Brown) writes:

>I hope that, the next time someone is tempted to post to
>the effect that soc.motss is "safe space" or "supportive",
>they wil remember this thread.

I remember this thread, very well indeed.  And I also think
soc.motss is safe sapce and supportive.  Perhaps your
standard of judging what's supportive is not the same as
everyone else's.  For example, many people would not
consider it supportive to encourage a person to continue
laboring under the influence of serious delusions.  Many
people would consider it safe to encourage a person to
consider more carefully the paths they choose in this life.

In the given case, based on all past transactions, it's my
impression that Brent Capps is a very nice man.  But the
thing that's bothering him about his body and his self-image
is entirely the fictive product of his interior mental
processes.  There was recently a good article herte on
identity politics, much of which would apply to Brent's
responses to his environment.  It would hardly be supportive
to nourish what is at base a self-limiting ot
self-destructive pattern of thinking.

Perhaps I am not yet addressing your point, however, though
I think I am.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 23:28:29 GMT

> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>> mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:

>> >You really think HP would fire you in violation of their own EE statement? 
>> 
>> It's possible.  In Georgia, I could seek relief in the court system.
>> In Colorado I could not.
>> 
>> Simply have an EE statement does _NOT_ guarantee it will not be violated.
>
>I agree that you should be able to seek relief in the court system.  But 
>I find so much of the rest to be hysteria.  How many examples can you 
>refer to where companies have violated their own EE policies?  

My own employer, though exemplary in many ways, professes not
to discriminate on the basis of marital status, yet
compensates married employees more than unmarried employees,
by offering significant company benefits to the partners of
married employees, but few to the partners of unmarried ones.
And this doesn't even address lower payment of single
employees.  Pacific Telesis Group also says it won't
discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, but gives
corporate contributions to the Boy Scouts of America, who do.
It says it doesn't discriminate on the basis of sex, race or
disability, yet a preponderance of the company's officers and
senior managers are able-bodied, heterosexual, white males,
while a majority of its workforce are either female or members
of racial minorities.

I think you'll find that AA/EEO/Diversity policies are usually
a statement of a company's goals and aspirations (some of them
mandated by law), rather than a reliable indicator of actual
practices or conditions.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: From a new subscriber
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 03:23:26 GMT

In article <63@nola.win.net> csabatier@nola.win.net (Conrad
J.  Sabatier) writes:

]I've just joined this group and am wondering who is this Clayton
]person?  Sounds like another straight interloper.  Seems there's
]always at least one on any gay discussion group I've ever read. 
]My personal feeling is that such characters are best ignored
]altogether, as they generally do not seem interested in having a
]truly intelligent, reasonable discourse.

]Just my personal opinion.

Son, you just got my vote for smartest newcomer of the year!

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown)
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Organization: Oak Road Systems, Cleveland Ohio USA
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 16:45:59 GMT

I hope that, the next time someone is tempted to post to the effect that
soc.motss is "safe space" or "supportive", they wil remember this thread.


-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems                      brown@Ncoast.ORG

The existence of boredom implies the falsity of behaviorism, but the
details of the derivation bore me.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: correction to end-of-year reading
Keywords: squirrels, johnson, martha stewart
Organization: (getting there)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:56:13 GMT

zwicky@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) writes:

 >arnold (who, thanks to stan brown, has just read three sarah caulwell
 >  mysteries and just *loved* them)

Oh, goodness, Arnold, here I go again.  Isn't it Caudwell?
(No, dears, I cannot check.  The bookcases haven't yet been 
installed and those books are still packed.  Next week, I
trust.  I'd hoped to have them by yesterday, but the carpenter
decided at about the last minute to make a template of the 
support post.)

 >[sort-of motss relevance: the narrator (and detective) in caulwell's
 > books is professor hilary tamar, an oxford don whose sex is never
 > revealed in any way]

My mother has just discovered these.  She'd read two of them without
noticing how undefined Hilary Tamar was.  


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 05:52:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <18223@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:

>this kind of bitterness upsets me.

bitterness?????

>In the paragraph of yours above you say that it pleases you that Andrea
>Dworkin pisses men off, and objectifys them in a dehumanising way.
>You go on to rationalise that by saying that you think it will help
>them get their heads straight about the way they treat women and make
>changes accordingly.

rationalize?????

Owen -- I realize I am no more your notion of a cogent observer than
Melinda is, but you seem weirdly out of touch here.  Melinda is saying
no more than this:

	Male assurances of "understanding" the problems of systematic
	oppression of women amount to a hill of beans.  Most men have
	ZERO comprehension of what it is to be the object of a total
	societal negation.  If Dowrkin can get men, for a *few* moments
	of their oh-so-precious time to see an absolute negation of
	their worth, they *may* [if they have some capacity for clues]
	begin to *feel* (and not dismiss by abstraction) what women
	generally have to put up with every bloody second of their
	lives.

Have a nice day.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon	"We honour founders of these starving cities
mls@panix.com		 Whose honour is the image of our sorrow ...
			 They built by rivers and at night the water
			 Running past the windows comforted their sorrow."
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Outed by the 'phone company?
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 13:19:25 GMT

In article <27545@sybase.sybase.com> spriggs@sybase.com (Mark Spriggs) writes:
>BUT, if the call is a toll call, the telephone number will appear on
>the bill AND you can call the phone company and get a listing for any
>number that appears on your bill.

I have heard of organizations which use voicemail-like systems which
forward the calls (NOT the phone company's forwarding which still
might be recorded).  True, the numbers still appear in the database
for the gateway, but thenumbers to which such a system forwards the
calls would be blind to the actual caller.

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Subject: Re: The Foreskin-Impaired (was Re: Drooling over...)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:30:47 GMT


I made a mistake in the previous post...

>Having a forskin increases sensitivity. This is without question. I
>don't think this is a good thing, however. I find that quite a few men
>w/o foreskins can't really take aggressive friction on the head of
>their penis, and another small group of uncircumcised men don't want
>to skin the foreskin back. I like to run my finger around just under
>the rim of the glans when I'm jacking someone off, and about half
>uncircumcised men will just go through the roof and stop me.

-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:17:47 GMT

> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>> >If I'm following you right, you mean a married person can have 
>> >his spouse/dependants on his insurance, but a single person 
>> >can't have his roommate/unmarried SO on it?...
>> 
>> If by insurance you mean Health Plan, yes.
>
>That's what I meant.  
>
>> But other employers don't usually
>> offer these benefits to unmarried partners.  And bennies like
>> Tuition Aid, gym membership, credit union membership, special
>> life insurance group rates, for example, are usually not made
>> available to unmarried partners (and their dependants)...
>> in
>
>Agreed.  I don't know that these are EE issues, though.  The 
>problem seems to center around not being able to marry, which 
>would provide the companies with a clear way to determine 
>that they should give bennies to given people.  Companies like 
>things nice and neat; and it isn't that way yet.  Fix that, a
>and a lot of these other things should be cleared up.  

They're EE issues if the company professes not to discriminate
on the basis of marital status, don't you think?  Or are you
using the term EE to apply only to federally-mandated stuff?
Those companies and organizations that have implemented
Domestic Partner benefit plans have come up with numerous ways
to determine who is a valid DP, usually requiring an affidavit
of some kind, and a waiting period between DPs, and sometimes
requiring proof that the realtionship has lasted for a certain
length of time.  Some of these companies now require married
couples to leap throught the same bureaucratic hoops.

>> But they don't always have "more responsibilities."  If they
>> don't have children and their spouse is also working, why
>> should they get more compensation than their single counterparts?
>> Why does the company arbitrarily decide who "needs it" and
>> who deosn't, merely on the basis of a marriage certificate?
>
>Because they are the company, and that is their right.  If they 
>think it is good business to pay people who either have a family 
>or are likely to be saving for one (married people) that is 
>their perogative.  It may seem unfair, but I don't know that 
>it qualifies as an EE problem...

Again, if the company claims not to discriminate based on
marital status, I would say it does.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 13:02:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.113314.5184@panix.com> mara@panix.com
(Mara Chibnik) writes:

>bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:

> >One time I was behind by *4000*
> >messages and just had to mark them all read.

>Here is clear evidence of insufficient devotion.  If there were a
>cabal it would have to address this matter.

There's a rumor (nothing more) that there's a special type
of pod for this.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: A Better Year Ahead
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:48:28 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

In article <18205@autodesk.COM>, owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:
|> Individuals who will not engage individuals as individuals, and
|> persistently harrass soc.motss as impersonal *others* are not debating
|> or disscussing anything, they are molesting us, and the only way
|> to deal with such people is to * just say NO*

Whither thy vaunted ideals of free speech now, Rowley?  "Just say *NO*" on an
individual basis, of course.  But on an enforced policy basis?  A load of hooey.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
From: dise@decoy.uoregon.edu (David Casti)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 21:10:43 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dise@oregon.uoregon.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: cisco-ts2-line33.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec20.231739.8064@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)  
writes:
> How did you discover soc.motss? Did you find it at the same time you
> found Usenet, or later?

I heard about soc.motss on the GayNet email list, long before I had news  
access.  Much to my dismay, none of the public University of Oregon systems  
carried any soc groups, so when I put my own NeXT on UONet, I started reading  
soc.motss every week or so -- fairly religiously.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Marky Mark on New Years Eve
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:39:11 GMT

Time magazine reports that people are steal the Marky Mark ads off of
bus stations in L.A.
From: freier@mail.physics.utah.edu (rodney james freier)
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Organization: University of Utah - Physics Department
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 11:24:26 GMT

In article <Bzyo91.3x4@agora.rain.com>, bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
|> rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
|> 
|> >	Person 1: What do you want for dinner?
|> >	Person 2: I dunno, what do yOU want for dinner?
|> >	Person 1: (Realizing that this is an infinite loop)
|> >			White Castle Burgers it is!
|> 
     [stuff deleted.  sue me]

|> Brent, shuddering that someone would actually *eat* one of those greasy
|> little patties of fat

  Ha!  You'll forgive me if this is only marginally related... please?
Anyway,  I took a nutrition class in which the teacher tried various
interesting methods of making us take her info seriously.  So, in
order to make us truly understand the amount of fat fast food generally
contains, she did this:  For every burger, sandwich, etc., she wanted to
talk about, she filled test tubes with an amount of crisco equal to
the amount of fat you would be consuming were you to eat said item.  These
test tubes were about an inch in diameter and about five inches long.
   She talked about the whopper, for example, and then held up a test tube
filled about half way.  The students were a little queasy after a few
of these revelations, but that did not compare at all to the disgust
generated when she talked about Wendy's tripple with cheese.  With a 
look of giddy amazement, she held up TWO COMPETELY FILLED TUBES!  The
groans were in themselves sickening.

Rod
(well, at least I mentioned crisco...)
From: mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:33:49 GMT

In article <1h80sdINNk83@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Dec22.172912.2724@tc.cornell.edu> 
> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
> 
> > I don't think
> > that turnabout is fair play, but I do feel that reading
> > Dworkin could lead more men to the "Aha!" experience.
> 
> I doubt this very much.

It'll more probably be the "Snigger" experience. Dworkin is an undercover
agent for the Male Chauvinist Pig Party; they have no greater weapon in
their arsenal. You've come a long way, baby.




--
Death to all fanatics!!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Small grooming question
Date: 29 Dec 1992 16:46:56 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

|>  Anybody else out their find
|> bald men a serious turn-on?

Yes.


FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Age-ism and the gay community
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:02:44 GMT

dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>To put my own two cents into this discussion, my lover is 10 years older
>than I am; we met when I was 23 and he was 33, and it will be 14 years
>later this coming March.  I think bright kids are mature in certain ways
>which make it perfectly natural to seek out people older than themselves
>as peers, friends and therefore as lovers, too.  This was certainly going on
>with me in my early 20's.  Admittedly, a gap of 10 years might not have
>as much a taboo as twice that, but to be honest, I didn't notice this
>much at all.  

	Well, funny you should mention that...

	I'm 30, Fred's 50.  I don't know about taboo, I haven't
noticed any strange reaction from ANYONE with my relationship
(excluding some dimwits on IRC who ask the perenial stoopid
questions e.g., "but you don't have anything in common!",
or this gem: "but what if one of you dies first?" - the mind reels),
*INCLUDING* my parents... which I find surprising when I stop
to think about it.

	At the time things started to get "hot and heavy",
I had a little concern about getting involved with someone
20 years older than me, but that didn't last long.  What's
really funny is that it really doesn't FEEL like a 20-year age
difference.  

>Of course, I didn't have a bunch of age-peers clucking their
>tongues at me, either.  Which is not to say that even now, the age difference
>can be completely ignored.   For example, I am still somewhat footloose,
>probably more than I ought to be, whereas annuities and mutual funds for
>maximizing his return for his retirement plan have seized my lover's
>imagination.  At age 47, age 65 comes upon you very quickly.  Or so I'm
>told. :-)

	Well, that part is interesting --- I'm finding myself much
more interested in thinking of my retirement now (I just found
out yesterday my dad is retiring from truck driving effective
Thursday) than I think I would ever have before.

BBC
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Cramer is our problem too.
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:24:54 GMT

In article <C03Kx4.K1@exnet.co.uk> s0xjg@exnet.co.uk (Xavier Gallagher) writes:
>I have got yet more mail asking me to stop posting on Cramer threads.
>
>The logic seems to be that he is not a motss issue.
>
>Well, if homophobia and ignorance are not motss issues what are?

Well, yes, he's a "motss issue", but he's not a "soc.motss
issue". That is, the soc.motss "charter" (such as it is)
describes a few topics that are not considered appropriate for
soc.motss, and Cramer sticks mostly/entirely to those topics
(e.g. "Is it all right to be gay?" "Do gays molest children?" "Do
gays cause the Bubonic Plague by eating Christian babies?" I'm
paraphrasing here...).

talk.politics.homosexuality was created for these discussions; in
addition, misc.misc, alt.flame, and /dev/null are well suited for
these topics.

Every group has to set its ground rules. For example, abortion is
a topic of great interest to many women, yet (as I understand it)
soc.women barred discussions on abortion, since they tended to
dominate the group and cause hard feelings all around; instead,
these discussions take place on talk.abortion. Similarly,
discussions of Israeli policy/politics are held on
talk.politics.mideast, not soc.culture.jewish (a rule more
honored in the breach than in the observance, but still...).
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: soc.motss