HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: segs@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (susan.e.slusky)
Subject: Shabbetai Tzvi's continuing legacy
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:27:14 GMT
Keywords: messianism Moment magazine article


The new Moment magazine has a fascinating article
about a group called the Donme. These people are
the descendants of the followers of Shabbetai
Tzvi, the seventeenth century self proclaimed 
moshiach (who electrified the Jewish world but
eventually chose to convert to Islam rather 
than be killed by the Sultan). The Donme live
in Turkey and practice a religion with mixed
aspects of Judaism, Islam, and Shabbetai Tzvi's
extra additions. Among the additions were a relaxed
attitude toward adultery and rituals that 
encouraged adultery. In the 1920's Salonika's
rabbis rejected the request of the Donme to be 
reabsorbed into Judaism because of the mamzurut
problem among them. I thought it was relevant
to discussions that have gone on here
as an example of what can go wrong in extreme
cases of 

a> Jewish Messianism

b> abandoning traditional Jewish rules for 
marriage, divorce, and procreation

Susan Slusky
segs@mhuxo.att.com

PS Also in the same issue of Moment an article including
data from the 1990 Jewish census conducted by ?Federation?
showing among other things the age distribution of Jews
in US. We're very heavy into baby boomers, much
more so than the general US population. And we're starting 
to have lots of babies, 3 toddlers for every 2 teenagers.
From: schweik@cpp.ob.open.de (Martin Schweikert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Discovery
Date: 24 Jul 92 09:30:20 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Private/FRG


Hi all!

Could someone please tell me where I can learn the principles on
which the Discovery project is based upon?

As far as I understand them now, there are methods of selecting and
arranging characters from Torah.

I would be highly interested in the *exact* methods.

Martin
-- 
M. Schweikert-Oberhausen/Germany-schweik@cpp.ob.open.de
Fax: +49 208 85 97 108, Phone: +49 208 85 97 142
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:29:44 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <84588@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <dfs.712284318@data>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>>Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?

>>Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.

>That is certainly a lie.

They do not say that the Orthodox are wrong to believe as they do.

They do say that the Orthodox are wrong in insisting that all others
believe as the Orthodox do.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ness@aecom.yu.edu (Seth Ness)
Subject: attention aaron schmiedel
Reply-To: <ness@aecom.yu.edu>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:29:29 GMT

help. i can't get mail through to aaron schmiedel. using my mailers
reply function my mail gets bounced. and stuff i sent to aaron@kesher.lonestar.org a while ago has received no response. what adress should i use?

-- 
 Seth L. Ness                        Ness Gadol Hayah Sham          
 Ness@aecom.yu.edu
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 20 Jul 92 07:37:13 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <l6dts3INNfp6@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:

>In article 711364151@techunix.technion.ac.il, goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:
>>janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
>>
>>>I was just wondering if this the first time the Mafdal has not been
>>>part of the Israeli government ...
>>
>>                           NO
>
>
>Someone else replied equally strongly YES.  Could you provide some dates
>either way?

 the 1st time , as I remember, the Mafdal ( then another name was
used)  left the government was at the begining of the state . the
reason was the "yaldey tehran" case. Children saved from the Germans
during WW2 arrived to Israel after being at Tehran , sended to secular
places even so the childs  were religious.
The 2nd time was because of arrival of new F15 planes on Shabat.
The mafdal left the coalition.
Rabin in his known "bright trick" declared the resignation of the
whole government so the resignation of the Mafdal's ministers  becomes
void and they were forced to be ministers till a new government was
elected. ( The new government was headed by the Likud ....).

Shalom   gideon Ehrlich       ERETZ YISRAEL
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: THE ORAL LAW.
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:59:53 GMT

In article <isaac.711676677@numbat> isaac@numbat.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Isaac Balbin) writes:
>>   What I should have made clear, but Mr. Balbin did this for me,
>>is not that Talmud is rigid, but some Jews are rigid.  
>I am rigid, yes very rigid, when it comes to the 13 principles of
>Jewish faith as enunciated by the Rambam. You have a problem with that?

I'm not sure I follow the jump from the Talmud to Rambam's 13
principles, nor do I have a problem with you being rigid with that
which you will be rigid about, but I have a simple question or two:

- To what extent do we pasken from the 13 principles?

- What is the Halachic role of the 13 principles?
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: wine (was Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av)
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:14:13 +0000


> +From         : saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
> +Subject      : wine (was Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av)
> 
> In article <memo.545631@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
> 
> >In-Reply-To: <1992Jul27.172937.25839@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
> >friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
> 
> >>Is there exception for eating meat on Shabbat during this period?
> 
> >Yes, and wine is also permitted. As to Havdalah, the wine should be
> >given to a child if one is available; otherwise, an adult may drink
> >it.
> 
> Couldn't you simply make Havdalah on using a beverage that requires a
> she'hakol instead of using wine?

As fas as I can recall, the Chayei Odom does not require this and
many people prefer only to use wine or grape juice for Kiddush and
Havdalah.

For myself, I have often in the past made Havdalah on beer and I
regularly make Kiddush (at lunch, not Friday night) on beer. When you
come back from Shul on a Shabbos morning on a hot day it's a
"Mechayeh" to make Kiddush on really cold beer.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<1992Jul24.191706.556@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
	<1992Jul25.211027.7040@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1992Jul26.214408.18665@umbc3.umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:20:33 GMT



>>>	As far as I'm concerned, the Torah was written by many different
>>>	people giving many different accounts of history.  If they
>>>	actually saw us taking it leterally I think they'd be laughing
>>>	at us.  But this is my opinion, I will not say that it is the
>>>	only reasoning.  I just can't see how anyone can say the Torah
>>>	is an accurate document.  There are parts where clearly Moses
>>>	could not have gone up Mount Sinai and come back down and 
>>>	gone back up, and gone back up (wait, how'd he get back up if

	Reader beware: The above unsupported contention is the product of
	misunderstanding; while the idea of  the  Torah as an  historical
	document (G-d  forbid!)  is not new, the recent emphasis of  this
	is simply  an attemtp To even suggest  the Torah is (G-d  forbid)
	man-made makes a  mockery of any religous sensiblity This is  not
	soc.culture.atheism,  but  if you claim that the  Torah  is  (G-d
	forbid) man-made then you simply made up your interpretation.


--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Is there a limit?
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:57:29 GMT

If individual interpretation of the Jewish law is OK, then, is there a limit?
That is: Is there a point where the person's religion is not Jewish anymore?

Let's suppose that I start analyzing the Torah and that my logic tells
me that Jesus was a prophet, or something like that. Can I still be called
a Reformist Jew?
The same if I conclude that kosher was for the desert, or that 
circumsicion was to avoit infections several thousend years ago.

Is there a limit when someone's religion is not Jewish anymore?

AAP
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Summary: Time for Hebrew school
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:19:56 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Jul24.151615.27056@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>In article <2319@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>In <1992Jul23.192739.22976@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

			...................

>Alas, there is  a Gresham's Law  operating in Jewish education.
>The afternoon Hebrew schools used to meet 12 - 15 hours per week,
>and the kid learned _something_.  Now they often meet 3 -5 hours
>per week, and the  kids learn very little.  (My father once asked
>a group of Hebrew school teachers to (a) name any 5 of the Ten
>Commandments, (b) name the Five Books of Moses, and (c) name
>at least three  Prophets; most of the teachers couldn't do it!.)

Now if the teachers could not do this, well, incompetent teachers
are everywhere.  A now retired professor told our congregation that
one reason the Bible as literature is not being taught more is that
most of the high school English teachers cannot read the KJV.  This
means that they certainly could not read Shakespeare.

But if a more organized curriculum is used, this is enough time to cover
quite a bit.  A thorough understanding of the structure of Hebrew, with
a very good start on the vocabulary, is quite possible in ONE year of
3 hours a week class work.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from a Great-great-grandmother
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:05:57 GMT

In <1992Jul21.125723.15037@cs.yale.edu> engelson-sean@CS.YALE.EDU (Sean Philip Engelson) writes:

>And then there are the gabaim who make a misheberach for the many
>members of an `oleh laTorah's family...all in singular form.  Or male
>for female (I've never seen it the other way---latent sexism?
>:-)...etc...etc...

My all-time favorite goes (transcribed in the pronunciation used when
I heard it) 'misheberach es avosenu ... hu yevorech es hapresident es
havice president es haboard of trustees v'es kol haofficers ..."

At least it could be haboard d'trustees or something.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very crowned hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: logic? (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: ...))
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:28:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.224055.26806@midway.uchicago.edu>
rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>In article <1992Jul27.183841.657891@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim
>Hendeles) writes:

>I've talked to them. They are not applying logic; they are applying
>faulty mechanisms, the same as if you tried to multiply by adding ten
>to both sides instead of by taking one of the numbers a repeated number
>of times determined by the other number. The GIGO effect applies here
>in spades: if you use incorrect math, of course you're going to get results
>that are trash.

 ...

>Choosing one's premises is a trick in itself. I mostly go by a couple of
>rules-of-thumb already mentioned (Occam's Razor and the like; Humian
>skepticism; my own sensory perception, a few other things) to try and
>pick the ones that seem most probably true. This is always a risky
>business; as most of the pure skeptics have demonstrated, probability
>is a highly subjective concept, but there's no alternative, so I do my
>best, as you do, as everyone does. I suspect you and I have different
>opinions on what base premises are probable, but not as far different
>as, for example, eithe rof us have from the Christians.

This paragraph basically negates the high minded description of the
logical process you use.  You simply cannot deny the emotional
component involved in choosing what to call Jewish premises.

As you say: "GIGO."

This (from a "meta" logical perspective) in turn, denies any lack of bias
in the logical system.

>>In conclusion, it was human logic that brought upon us the Inquisition,
>>Nazisim, and hosts of other evils. 

>My Truth by Blatant Assertion meter just broke from input overload!!
>Where in the h--- did you get *that* little concept? Back it up or drop
>it, please -- *now*.

Trivially simple using your own methodology.  While I might be willing to
grant that they did use "flawed logic," that need not be the case.  All
you need is to choose different basic premises and as flawless a logical
system as you could want and you could get to the same conclusion as you
would with flawed logic and/or flawed logical abilities.

By the way, is there a Hubris meter next to the broken "Truth by Blatant
Assertion" meter?  If so, what's it reading after your statements on your
own logical abilities?  Has your book even replaced Quine's?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Chicken
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:09:14 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel


 On: 27 Jul 92 17:11:51 GMT
 schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz) understands:

>In article <2326@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) w
>>
>> As to why, it was so that no one would see a piece of meat, think it
>> was fowl, and eat it with milk.  This is probably not so likely with a
>> chicken leg still on the bone, but dishes using chopped up dark-meat
>> chicken or meat could be confused.
>
>I understand it as stemming from the fact that both beef and poultry
>must be kashered, i.e. the blood removed before eating.
>To avoid confusion and possible aveirah, the milk prohibition was
>extended from beef to poultry.

What is  the source of  the understanding  that poultry must  have its
blood removed.  Fish have some blood, and do not get "kashered".

Do  avoid  confusion,  I   am  questioning  Steven's  assumption  that
_originally_ fowl had to be kashered, and from this it followed not to
mix it with milk.  That these  days one "kashers" fowls is well known.

>Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Travel on Tisha B'av
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:45:29 +0000


> +From         : ed16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Etan Shalom Diamond)
> +Subject      : Travel on Tisha B'av
> 
> A friend is travelling to Italy during the first week of August.  She is
> returning on Sunday, 9 August, which is Tisha B'av.
> When does she fast?  When does she stop fasting?  I think she is leaving
> Italy Sunday morning and arrives at Kennedy Airport Sunday afternoon. 
> Does she start fasting Saturday night Italy time or does she wait until
> it is time to satrt fasting in NYC?  And does she end her fast New York
> time or Italy time?  She really would rather not fast more than she has
> to. (What a surprise!)
> 
> Does anyone have an idea?

The best suggestion is that she does not travel on Tisha B'av, for 4
reasons:-

1. It's not exactly the most auspicious day to go on a long journey.

2. I believe that she would have to start her fast on Saturday night
Italy time and complete it at nightfall New York time. As Italian
time is probably some 5 or 6 hours ahead of New York time, this would
mean her having to fast that many hours extra; not a good idea!

3. Have you ever flown long distance and the airline forgot to take
on board a kosher meal for you? It happened to me once and, foolish
thing I was, I hadn't brought any food with me just in case. Believe
me, it was hell going all that distance without food (flying always
makes me hungry) and having to put up with the aroma of the t'reifa
meals.

4. Long distance travel by air tends to dehydrate you, and the worst
effects of a fast are usually caused by lack of fluids.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Discovery
Date: 28 Jul 92 02:50:10 GMT
	<1992Jul27.203013.658851@locus.com>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1992Jul27.203013.658851@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
[re mathematical "codes" giving secret messages hidden in the Torah]
>   I also have a formal mathematical paper written on this topic proving
>   that these findings are way beyond statistical randomness. This paper
>   has been reviewed by leading mathematicians world-wide, and even
>   convinced an honest hard-core Russian-athiest-mathematician to rethink
>   his beliefs, and return to his people. The top statistician in the
>   world, at Harvard University, has been trying unsuccesfully to disprove
>   this paper for the past several years. He has suggested numerous
>   controlled experiments but (unfortunately for him) all of these
>   experiments, when completed, just served as more evidence to the
>   original thesis that the Torah can only have been of Divine origin.

Can you give me the reference to this formal mathematical paper, the
name of the hard-core Russian-atheist-mathematician, and the name of
the top statistician in the world at Harvard University?  I need these
names and references to check on the veracity of your claims.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: markr@mot.com (Mark)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Reply-To: markr@mcil.comm.mot.com
Organization: MCIL
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:25:58 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.021338.26993@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>In article <5674@nosc.NOSC.MIL> mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross) wri
>tes:
>>Last week's Torah portion, Pinchas, which was read at synagogues all
>>over the world seems to support the death penalty for the described
>>circumstance.
>
>
>
>And what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Last time I checked, _that_ came from
>the Bible, too.  And while supporters of the death penalty can play nifty
>semantic games which somehow differentiate between the meaning of "kill" and
>"execute", both actions are the taking of human life.

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible 'thou shalt not kill'. (nor does it say
execute)  What it does say, is, 'thou shalt not murder'.

In the original hebrew, it uses the phrase 'Lo Tirtzach' (murder)
and not the phrase 'Lo Taharog' (kill).

You must have last checked a really long time ago to mix the two up.

Mark
From: ranen@huey.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:26:14 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In article <1992Jul16.213709.10954@jade.tufts.edu>, nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw) writes:

|> and Islamic leaders), but that without the Arab factor the Likud-right
|> would still reign, even with the ex-Soviet and first-timers' votes for
|> 
|> B'ahavat Yisrael--
|> Nissan
|> 
|> :wq

-- 
The Arabs contributed to the Left's victory just as Labor's
voters did, and Meretz's voters did. 

The change in the left's seats was this way:

           1988   1992
           ----   ----
Labor        39     44
Meretz       10     12
Arabs         6      5

----SubTotal 55     61

Right        47     43
Religious    18     16
             --     --
            120    120

As we see, not only that the Arabs did not gain power, they lost it.
The whole "pure" left parties rose up from 55 to 61 mandates, and Shas
made the coalition have 67 votes. So you can see that the increasement
of Labor and Meretz, despite the decreasement of the Arabs, was the
factor that made the Left win the elections.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:52:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu>
rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>In article <84815@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu
>(Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>>In America, you can still find such R temples.

>Yes; they generally call themselves "classical Reform", meaning that
>when the rest of the movement figured out that it was throwing the

Is "classical reform" some kind of oxymoron?  I thought the initial idea
of Reform was to change adn adapt to society.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: davis@reaumur.ilog.fr (Harley Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: BAtman returns
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:48:36 GMT
Organization: ILOG S.A., Gentilly, France
In-reply-to: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu's message of 24 Jul 92 18:10:29 GMT


In article <1992Jul24.181029.24580@ultb.isc.rit.edu> jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:

   There was a recent item in the NY TImes, Reprinted in the local
   Jewish weekly, citing Batman Returns as being not very subtly
   antisemitic.  The Pinguin is the archtype Jewish villlian, seeking to
   kill the first born children of Gotham city.  Jewish sterotype
   merchant cheating people with cheap Xmas trinkets....  etc... etc...
   I have not yet seen the movie and was wondering if anyone on
   SCJ had.  If so, did you see the allusions?  Are they real, or the
   figments of demented students at Columbia (authors of article)?

This is garbage.  The movie had no reference to Jews, subtle or overt.
But you can have any fun you want to with this sort of thing.  For
example, Catwoman in her black leather costume was certainly an
anti-African-American character, going into sporting good stores and
blowing them up, like in the LA riots.  Good grief.

-- Harley Davis


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nom: Harley Davis			ILOG S.A.
net: davis@ilog.fr			2 Avenue Gallie'ni, BP 85
tel: (33 1) 46 63 66 66			94253 Gentilly Cedex, France