HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jodar@aludra.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Discussion request: Keeping soc.religion.* flat
Date: 9 Nov 1992 20:31:50 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: What he said....
Keywords: Proposed Guidelines Addition


Greetings, all! :-)

In article <1992Nov9.223956.1776@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:

>Short summary version: I propose that soc.religion.* should be kept flat,
>i.e. that only single groups should be created within the soc.religion
>hierarchy, and not hierarchies of groups. This allows discussions in
>news.groups to bypass the question of whether a religious group seeking a
>newsgroup is a subgroup of a larger group or not.

I had the same idea, long ago, and I still support such a move.
The object is to create more flexibility without all of the
political ramifications, and I see nothing but good in this
suggestion.  Generalized groups would be able to remain if there
was a need, while specialized groups would bear the burden of
traffic directed at their specific topic.  I don't anticipate 
the number of overall newsgroups increasing significantly.

It is assumed that such a move would mean some restructuring of
existing groups, but that doesn't sound too difficult.  (But what
do I know?  I'm ignorant.... :-) )

-AQ

Xref: sparky news.groups:20635 rec.music.synth:17958
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:13:11 GMT
Organization: Xanth Watch

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In the REAL world if you received a California ballot that was labelled  
>Nevada, made to look like junk mail and at the bottom had a proposition to  
>rename California to usa.westcoast.california, I think the public would  
>have grounds for a complaint. Then again that wouldn't happen in the REAL  
>world...

Such comparesions are at best of little value, and are mostly just plain
bogus as the one above. The label above was directly misleading and could
in no way, what so ever, be interpreted correctly. A better example would
be if it was labelled "westcoast" and contained ballots for California,
Oregon and Seattle.

'Made to look like junk mail'? How wrong can you be?
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:12:13 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>
>So, if there's a bottle of botulism and I fail to catch it before it
>lands in the reservior...there wasn't a problem in the first place?
>

There may have been, and there might be now, but the only thing you
can do it try to take it out by practical means, not by asking the
world to run backwards for you so you can try to catch it the first
time.  It fell in.  You can try to take it out, but it's quite done
falling in.

Note:  I do not agree that this namechange is quite so disasterous as
it is portrayed above.  Quite the contrary.  But in your eyes, the
analogy is fitting, so you will likely understand my extention of it.

-sz
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Man)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Organization: The Equator
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 03:03:00 GMT

Alexander EICHENER (C96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov6.061354.1583@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>
: mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Man) writes:
:  
: >>Mar Siew Cheong (escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
: >> Proposed Newsgroup's Name
: >> =========================
: >>   soc.culture.singaporean
: >>
: > Its high time to have a group for the Singaporeans. I support the idea.
: > However, I think the proposed newsgroups's name should be
: > "soc.culture.singapore". Easier to call.
:  
: If you just want a group for yourself and your fellows, create a local one
: (shouldn't be too difficult in a country of your size). If there are
: reasons beyond simple nationalism, you would better explain them.
:    I don't see the need for a separate net-clogger. Hongkong, Singapore
: and Macau might well be kept in one group.

 Well, Singaporeans certainly need a newsgroups which they can identify
 themselves in this "international" USENET. Having a newsgroups on
 USENET is like a symbol of the flag. But that does not mean I'm advocating
 nationalism, or excluding discussions from all other nationalities,
 other than Singaporeans. It will be a group for those who can contribute
 dicussions relevant to the Singaporean's society, and it will provide a
 source of information about Singapore for everyone. And it will be group 
 where all Singaporeans all over the world can be proud of. 

 Man at The Equator!
From: czo84228@dcsc.dla.mil (Kevin L. Wright)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Want Usenet/Internet Access
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:50:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Defense Construction Supply Center, Columbus

Is there a way I can access "rec.arts.tv?"  My system doesn't subscribe
to it anymore.

Kevin
E-Mail:  czo84228@dcsc.dla.mil 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.poems.urdu (Was: Re: More fuel for the music reorg debate)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 02:01:57 GMT

In article <BxnDLK.Cst@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.054026.615@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr) writes:
>
>>Say, Tim, how long before we can issue a CFV on renaming
>>rec.arts.poems.urdu to soc.culture.urdu?
>
>Immediately following an RFD on that subject.
>

You want to issue the RFD?
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:27:58 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>Granted that it's not a completely accurate analysis, but the numbers 
>seem to make sense with the apparent data. 

In other words: "These data support the conclusions I had already
drawn, so of course they make sense to me."

Objectivity?  We don't need no steenking objectivity!
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Xref: sparky news.groups:21416 alt.folklore.computers:16168 alt.folklore.urban:28313
From: PAPAI@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:28:03 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

otto@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (M. Otto, "Virtual Prisoner of the VAX") writes:

>The only way I can see alt.folklore.urban being moved to the soc.* heirarchy
>is to have the name soc.net.alt.folklore.urban.  That keeps the "alt"
>contingent happy.

AFU happy?  I can sell you a clue for two fifty buddy.

Jon
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.netrek
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:54:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.120830.28935@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>at home changing their rigs or reconfiguring for the next tour. They don't
>really care about newgroup wars or CFV's...but they do care about synths
>and midi equipment. 

So why do they care whether the group is named rec.music.synth or
frabble.frobble.goom?  Same material, and the newsreader takes them to
the group automatically.

>IF this were to go through, they'd think it disappeared. 

Really? You wouldn't bother posting one last message to that group
locally that said "This group has moved to rec.whatever"? You wouldn't 
make any effort to notify your users of the change? You wouldn't even
bother to write a sed script to go and automatically subscribe them to
the new group?

Shows a lot for how much you care about your users.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:50:20 GMT

In article <cuz.721291125@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu> cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu  
(Cousin It) writes:
> 	Oh well, their fault. If they can't take the time to figure
> out what CFV/RFD means, and what it means when one of them hits your
> newsgroup, well then, they deserve what happens. If it was unimportant
> to them, they now see that it shouldn't have been. At least we can say
> this vote made a lot of people aware.
> 

Where are they supposed to figure it out from? School of hard knocks? As  
someone else stated (please don't make me look up where and who), CFV and  
RFV aren't defined as acronyms in the guidelines.

> 
> 	They are unaware. It shouldn't effect us. In a perfect usenet
> society, all people would be aware. In the real usenet world, people
> learn to be aware.
>  

Maybe it should be made more clear. What's wrong with that? Too many of  
the "ignorant horde" would vote?

> 
> 	Well, they should become accostomed to looking at all cfv/rfds
> that come into thier group.Period.
> 

No doubt. But other changes should be looked at as well.

> 
> 	Oh, that damn subject line. What else you gonna put there. I
> assume you have to put alt.guitar, and rec.music.makers.* (hey, its
> where it is all going). Hell might as well ad sci.aquaria to, eh?
> Look, a subject line is a pointer to an article, and in cases such as
> mass reorgs, are bound to be somewhat cryptic.

Ah! But the subject line didn't even say "reorg" which might have been a  
nice clue. For the record, the subject line simply said:

	Subject: RFD: rec.music.makers.* groups

There's not even a verb there!

> All proposals to change
> this coming from this thread have been shown to cause more trouble
> than they are worth. The easiest thing to do is not to change the
> guidelines to something arguably worse than what we have, but to start
> a mass education campaign, to tell people that RFDs are important, as
> are CFVs, and if you see them in  a group you read, then you better
> read it, or suffer the ramifications. 
> 

It's certainly the easiest but it's arguable whether it's the best.  
Education is a great idea, but perhaps some changes to the process would  
help. I don't agree that there isn't a solution that would help more than  
hurt.

> [As a footnote, I read the initial RFD discussions, but I really
> didn't care enough one way or another, so I did not vote. Just to show
> i ain't biased because I am/was a proponent of the move]
> 

Glad to see you ain't biased.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:57:11 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>Facts can be used to bludgeon the innocent and powerless too.

As long as you view r.m.s readers as "innocent and powerless", you'll
keep missing the point that they are neither.  They are guilty of
ignoring important facets of the workings of Usenet.  They have just
as much power in the newsgroup creation process as anyone else does.

You'll do yourself a favor if you take off that Lone Ranger mask and
get down off your high horse.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: sri - AHMADIYYA fight
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: all
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 14:30:36 GMT

garzepel@mcs.drexel.edu (Anthony Rzepela) writes:
: 
[deletion]

: In summary: 
: * remember that the net community as a whole may wish to use the
: article flow in your groups for social/educational purposes. 
: 
: * this at-large community may never happen upon ahmadis 
: as a sect/spin-off/revolutionary break from Islam without 
: guidance from hierarchies.  Relegating the group to an 
: entirely different hierarchy (like alt.)  or to their own
: group at the same hierarchical level as islam is unfair to those 
: wishing more information about Islam or about Ahmadi. 

Good article. It is clear that Ahmdiyya must appear with Islam in the name.

:  
: -------------------------------
: Tony
: 
: P.S. I think that anyone that b*tches about the proliferation 
: of bad posts/flames/multilayered references on this topic
: without also slightly chiding the music. reorganization 
: thread on news.groups is bordering on picking on the Muslims. 
: 

Nadeem Malik
nadeem$p.igp.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 1992 20:20:53 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov7.071644.4478@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In YOUR opinion it was properly run - obviously more than a few people  
>disagree with you. And it isn't because we "couldn't be bothered" - it's  
>because for reasons already stated WE DIDN'T KNOW. 

The difference, outside of one news admin who doesn't like the result, is that
the people who have posted in support of the process and the result are
experienced news administrators, and those who oppose it are folks who have,
by and large, stated they aren't interested in the process. All you had to do
to know was read. If you couldn't be bothered to do that - and that's
literally all it took, reading the articles made available to you - then it's
your problem. The disagreement is from folks who don't understand the process.

>Sounds to me like you're PLEASED that so many people that actually are  
>involved in the newsgroup were unaware of the vote.

Not at all. I'd dearly love not to have had to write thirty or so messages
over the past week discussing the issue. However, the process has worked, by
and large, for long enough that I (and others) see the complaints from those
unfamiliar with it as uninformed, and our job is to inform you why the vote
was done properly, not allow the process to be overturned by loud, uninformed
screaming.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:22:12 GMT

In article <BxIHor.Es@uunet.uu.net> dave@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>[[ I am strongly opposed, on administrative grounds, to conducting a
>   binding poll as described below.  There is no precedence in USENET for
>   such a vote, and the motive for doing it this way rather than using
>   the accepted method of group renaming seems quite transparent to me.
>   I will elaborate more on this and other personal objections
>   in a separate posting to news.groups.                -- tale ]]

I agree. There is absolutely no prededent for this sort of baloney.

The newsgroup name was changed. That vote is over. There is no provision
for a second vote being held to approve the results of a first. Those
who are unhappy with the results of a vote are free to go through the
process to change the name back, but not to make up their own process.

>Therefore, this RFD is the prelude to a vote on keeping the new name for the
>group. The question the vote will ask is: "Should rec.music.makers.synth stand 
>as a group name?". 

There is no such vote. The only vote that can be held at this time is a
vote to recreate rec.music.synth.

Xref: sparky news.groups:21432 news.admin.policy:344 rec.music.synth:18361
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:06:15 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1992Nov11.233135.9378@philmtl.philips.ca> ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>Although I know how the net loves a bun-fight, I'm astounded at how patient
>most people are being in dealing with this situation.  A long time ago I
>came to the conclusion that the only inflexible party was Mr.  Hayes, and
>that his behaviour was demonstrably irrational and remarkably self
>centered.

He didn't like the way the vote was handled and he threatened to cut
off a gateway.  As I said before, he is completely within his
rights to do that regardless of his reasoning.  Since you have no 
authority to force him not to do it, why not move on over to 
rec.music.makers.synth and get on with it?

However, if there is something you want from Mr. Hayes (such as his gateway) 
then perhaps you should try kissing up to him instead of insulting him.  
If that doesn't work then you must accept his decision.

Maybe next time a similar situation arises we will have learned something
from this.  There appears to be a history of fallout from newsgroup
restructurings on the net.  This situation is nothing new.  No matter how
irrational it may seem, it happens and it is part of the cost of such 
restructurings.  We pay, we move on and hope it was worth it.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya Moderated
Date: 6 Nov 92 13:08:07 PST
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

In article <nahmed-051192135711@mac179.willard.nwu.edu>, nahmed@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (NAWAZ AHMED) writes:

> the lost glory to Muslims. Ahmadis do not believe this and say such
> thinking is based on ignorance and differ in this and all other
> interpretation put forward by other Muslims. So discussion is needed. This

Since Ahmadis differ in their thinking on what Islam is, call the newsgroup 
Ahmadism, and not related to Islam.  Discuss whatever you like in the 
newsgroup, but Islam has only ONE interpertation and that is 
following the sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (SAW).  Period. 

> NAWAZ AHMED
> NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY
> 

Please state clearly what is to be name of the newsgroup to be and
put it up for voting.

Ms. Merchant
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:49:51 GMT

killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
>Some assumptions:
>1) The vote was held according to guidelines

I *could* maintain that the CFV was not clear enough. 

>If we now hold a re-vote, we have a precedent that a vote held according
>to guidelines is not neccesarily valid.  This implies:

Oh my god...shall I say it....IMMINENT DEATH OF THE NET PREDICTED.

>1) Change the guidelines

I'll go for this. 

>Dave, WHY is the name change such a bad idea?  Do you think that people
>starting to read news do not find it, if it is under *.makers.* ?

Because it wasn't broken in the first place, AND because the vote was 
not handled in a fair manner.

Consider this scenario:

Unfair voting subject line practices leads to widespread disillusion of
news admins which causes no guidelines to ever be trusted. Hence altnet. 

*I* certainly have lost respect for the Guidelines. Who's next? Do you
really want this to continue?

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   The word 'choice' is a fraud 
         while people choose only what they have been taught about to choose.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:02:08 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> 1. All articles in n.a.newgroups have "Followup-To: news.groups".
>
>That doesn't take into account the new netter...

????

News software is very egalitarian.  It propagates articles from new
and old user alike.

>> And seeing an article in n.a.newgroups is a big _clue_ that reading
>> news.groups might be a good idea.  I am not required to cater to
>> people who didn't get that clue...
>
>This argument winds us both down the road of me calling you elitist
>and you calling me clueless.

No, Dave, I don't call you clueless.  You voted.  And even if you
hadn't, you'd have made that choice from a position of knowledge,
because you went to the trouble of learning how the process works.

>Again, most new people have trouble keeping up in their own interest
>groups.

That's why n.a.n exists!
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.solid-state.electronics
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:44:22 GMT

In article <BxnGI5.FD5@uunet.uu.net> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:

>In observation of the guidelines for usenet group creation a request for
>discussion on creation of sci.solid-state.electronics is being
>cross posted to sci.electronics, sci.physics, and news.announce.newsgroups.
>The name of this group is still open for discussion.

It should follow Usenet big-endian hierarchical structure, a la
sci.electronics.solid-state.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups