HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: OPAL or OODBMSs in Smalltalk info, where?
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:52:14 GMT

Richard Ronteltap (rontelta@fwi.uva.nl) writes:

> I heard of OPAL, an object oriented database written in Smalltalk.
> The database access language is in Smalltalk too, which may be
> a disadvantage if you don't know Smalltalk, but gives you full
> use of the compiler.

The GemStone OODB is an active database, allowing users to write methods
for their database classes that will be executed in the database engine on
demand. OPAL is the SmallTalk dialect provided by GemStone for writing
those methods. While complete applications can be written in OPAL and run
in the database, many GemStone applications use one of GemStone's external
language interfaces (C, C++, or SmallTalk) to access the database (and
optionally trigger OPAL methods). GemStone itself is written in C.


> Does anyone know where to get the manual for it?

    Servio Corporation
    950 Marina Village Parkway
    Suite 110
    Alameda CA 94501

    Tel: 800-243-9369
    Fax: 510-814-6227

    Contact: Mike Stimming

===============================================================================

    Marc San Soucie
    Servio Corporation
    Beaverton, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:31:52 UCR
From:         federico Zoufaly <FZOUFALY@UCRVM2.BITNET>
Subject:      light weight classes?

Hello smalltalkers.
Lately I have heard many times the term "light-weight classes".
I would like to know what they are, which are their applications, and how they
can be implemented.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Federico.
From: hosking@cs.umass.edu (Tony Hosking)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: Book colors -- blue, purple, etc...
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:47:47 GMT
Reply-To: hosking@cs.umass.edu
Organization: Dept of Comp and Info Sci, Univ of Mass (Amherst)
In-reply-to: ACE@VTMSL.BITNET's message of 10 Nov 92 19:26:50 GMT

>>>>> On 10 Nov 92 19:26:50 GMT, ACE@VTMSL.BITNET (Ashley) said:
Ashley> I keep seeing refernces to books by colors: "The Blue Book," "The
Ashley> Purple Book," etc.  Can someone please translate for me?  (and
Ashley> be specific, please)

Ashley>   Thanks,

Ashley>      Ashley Engelund
Ashley>      MSL/Va Tech

The "blue" book:
@BOOK{GR83,
	AUTHOR = "Adele Goldberg and David Robson",
	TITLE = "Smalltalk-80: The Language and its Implementation",
	PUBLISHER = "Addison-Wesley",
	YEAR = 1983
}

The "purple" book:
@BOOK{GR83,
	AUTHOR = "Adele Goldberg and David Robson and ?",
	TITLE = "Smalltalk-80: The Language",
	PUBLISHER = "Addison-Wesley",
	YEAR = 199?
}
The purple book is basically the blue book minus the implementation stuff (out
of date anyway), but still a reasonable *definition* of the virtual machine.

The "green" book:
@Book{Krasner83,
  title = 	 "{Smalltalk-80}: Bits of History, Words of Advice",
  publisher = 	 "Addison-Wesley",
  year = 	 1983,
  editor = 	 "Glenn Krasner"
}

The "orange" book:
@Book{Goldberg84,
  title = 	 "{Smalltalk-80}: The Interactive Programming Environment",
  publisher = 	 "Addison-Wesley",
  year = 	 1984,
  editor = 	 "Glenn Krasner"
}
--
		Tony Hosking
Papernet:	Dept. of Computer Science
		University of Massachusetts			 _--_|\
		Amherst, MA 01003				/      \
Voicenet:	(413) 545-0256					\_.--._/    )
Internet:	hosking@cs.umass.edu				      v    /
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: jedwards@ms.uky.edu (Jonathan Edwards)
Subject: FAQ
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:03:50 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Can someone point me to a FAQ on Smalltalk or OOP?
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: hmm@heeg.de (Hans-Martin Mosner)
Subject: Re: GNU ST: getting user-created classes to create new instances
Keywords: GNU new
Organization: Georg Heeg Objektorientierte Systeme, Dortmund, FRG
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:19:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.034643@IASTATE.EDU> latyr@IASTATE.EDU (Leslie A Tyrrell) writes:
>
>I can do:
>
>	Les := Set new !
>	Les inspect !
>
>And find out that I am an instance of Set, which is what I expect.
>
>But, if I do:
>
>	Les := Edge new ! "Edge is a Class I have created"
>	Les inspect !
>
>I find out that I am an instance of Edge CLASS... which is not what
>I wanted at all.  Anyone know what is going on ?

Probably the method new in class Edge looks like this:

new
	| thing |
	thing := super new.
	thing initialize

without a ^thing this returns self, which is just the class Edge.

Hans-Martin
-- 
+--- Hans-Martin Mosner ---------------- <hmm@heeg.de> ---+
| These opinions are entirely ficticious.  Any similarity |
| to real opinions is purely coincidental and unintended. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: chapman@bcoc0h.QE.Bell.CA (George Chapman)
Subject: Re: Version control
Reply-To: chapman@stam.qe.bell.ca 
Organization: OD, Bell Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:48:41 GMT

We actually use Silence and I must say it is pretty good for the price (ONLY one hundred something). Although there seems to be manyu on going probs. Nigel is  
always willing to help you get around or fix them.
 -- 

"Life is not a practice session."

phone:(613)785-0701                   george.chapman@canrem.uucp
compuserve: 70253,1231                bix: gfchapman
X.400: /c=ca/admd=telecom.canada/s=chapman/g=george 
email: chapman@stam.qe.bell.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: mefisto@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Jaime R. Lopez Vazquez)
Subject: Smalltalk Implementation 
Organization: UPR-Mayaguez--ASEL Lab
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:34:50 GMT



	I am a BS Computer engineering student and I'm taking an Object-Oriented
Programming class for graduate students. I'm also working as an assistant in a visual
language research. In both, the class and the research, we are using SMALLTALK-80 4.1.
	From what I have learned from the language it is implemented by dividing it 
in two parts: the Virtual Machine and the Virtual Image. It is actually like building
a program to emulate a computer and then running a program in that virtual computer.
I have some clues about the advantages of this implementation but I want some experts 
to tell me exactly. Of course, being Smalltalk-80 more a whole environment than a
single language, its current implementation gives the programmer the use of all the
tools the Smalltalk architects had to build the language and the environment.
Also it could have some edge in the language portability. What do you have to say
about this subject? I will also love to have the specifications of the virtual
machine for the current version of Smalltalk. Where I could find some documentation?
I will like to build a virtual machine myself as a personal project.
	I need some tools to design user interfaces with Smalltalk. I already have 
HotDraw but I require something more specialized for visual languages construction. I
have heard about InVaider and Foible but aparently there are not 4.1 versions of these
frameworks. Does anybody know more about?
	

						Jaime Lopez
From: penning@sumax.seattleu.edu (Mat Penning)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Version control
Date: 8 Nov 92 02:06:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA


Hi -

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience using AM/ST, a 
version control package for smalltalk, and if it works under
the 2.0 Windows version of ST.

Also, what other packages are available? Any experiences good or
bad are welcomed!




Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Management Systems Laboratories
X-Acknowledge-To: <ACE@VTMSL>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:10:48 EST
From:         Ashley <ACE@VTMSL.BITNET>
Subject:      WB & SubPanes fixes (C&P)
Comments: To: smalk@finhutc.bitnet

Previously I had mentioned that I've got some fixes for Coopers & Peters
Windowbuilder (2.0) and SubPanes (1.1).  I got them from CompuServe
and can send them to anyone that wants them.

You can also send mail to Ken Coopers (the "C" in C&P) directly; he's
been quite helpful to us when we've had questions.  (Are you listening
Digitalk?!?) You can send to him at:  71571.407@CompuServe.com.

 - Ashley
From: aran@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Aran Lunzer)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Inference engines available?
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:35:21 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

What inference engines are available for ST-80 4.x?  i.e. Prolog-style stuff.

Maybe what I want is the Humble system - or maybe that would be overkill,
since it's just pattern-matching I want rather than a full-blown KBMS.
In any case, is Humble available on release 4?

Thanks for any help
Aran Lunzer
From: cantwell@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Jeff Cantwell)
Subject: Re: Inference engines available?
Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 21:19:37 GMT

Humble does indeed run under PPR4. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the
number for XSIS right now. Maybe (818) 351-2351??

Xref: sparky comp.lang.smalltalk:2268 misc.jobs.offered:13410 biz.jobs.offered:439 misc.jobs.contract:4079
From: prasad@cis.ksu.edu (Baba C Prasad)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,misc.jobs.offered,biz.jobs.offered,misc.jobs.contract
Subject: SmallTalk/Object-Oriented Systems Programmers
Date: 10 Nov 1992 17:35:42 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University, Dept. of Computing and Information Sciences
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: altair.cis.ksu.edu


I'm posting this for a company in Philadelphia. Please DO NOT send any 
resumes to this address. Much as I would like to, it is not possible for
me to get these resumes across to the company. So, it is in your best
interest to send your resume by US Mail or fax to the address below.

--baba prasad

Company posting follows:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	Computer Command and Control Company (CCCC) is a fast-growing
hi-tech software research company, concentrating on software engineering
and distributed systems. We have worked on major research projects for the
Department of Defense for many years now, and over the past couple of
years, many Wall Street firms have been looking to us for technical and
research expertise. 
	CCCC's research strength lies in its highly qualified staff:
70% of our research staff are doctorates (many of them professors of
Computer Science), and the remainder hold Master's degrees in CS.  Our
current emphasis is on development of object-oriented systems, primarily in
SmallTalk, and to some extent in C++. If you are experienced in the design
and development of SmallTalk systems in the following areas, we'd like
to hear from you (We will consider bright Master's degree holders, but if 
you have sufficient work-experience and an excellent track-record, and a 
bachelor's degree, you will still qualify) :

* Financial Application development (Trading systems, Risk Management,
  etc.)

* Real-time hook-ups to applications (tying in asynchronous feeds from
  a network, for example)

* Distributed Computing and Communications including Unix socket-based
  communications in SmallTalk

	CCCC offers an excellent work environment, and challenging
state-of-the-art software development assignments. Our compensation
compares favorably with the best in the industry. Please rush your resume,
with a cover letter mentioning where you saw this posting, to the 
following address immediately:

		Evan Lock
		Computer Command and Control Company
		2300 Chestnut Street, Suite 230
		Philadelphia, PA 19103
		Phone: (215)854-0555
		Fax:   (215)854-0665


-- 
--prasad

---------------------------------------------------
Baba Prasad
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: hinkle@cs.uiuc.edu (Bob Hinkle)
Subject: Re: Q: Data watchpoints
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:54:59 GMT

In <Bx8zus.30I@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com> scollins@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Steven Collins) writes:

>In article <Bx88u6.EFD@cs.uiuc.edu> hinkle@cs.uiuc.edu (Bob Hinkle) writes:
>>hoping to get it published in *The Smalltalk Report*, so you may
>>
>>                                 Bob Hinkle

>How do I obtain "The Smalltalk Report"?
>Thanks, Steve

It's published 9 times a year, and is available for $8 a copy or $65 for
a US subscription ($90 in Canada).  The address they give for subscriptions
is The Smalltalk Report, Subscriber Services, Dept. SML, P.O Box 3000,
Denville, NJ  07834.  There's no 1-800 number, but they do say it's
"published by COOT, Inc., a member of the SIGS Publications group," whose
number is listed as (212) 274-0640.  Hope that helps.

                                      Bob
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: SMALK@FINHUTC.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:54:44 EDT
From:         Marcos Antonio Vaz de Magalhaes <mavm@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject: Re: ST/V interfaces to Relational DB

   Dear Philippe,

        Pioneer sells a library called Q+E Lib wich allows not only Smalltalk,
but many other languages such as C, Pascal, VisualBasic, etc, to access the
following databases:

                # BTrieve
                # dBase
                # Paradox
                # Ingres
                # XDB
                # SQLBase
                # Oracle


        Actually, it provides the DLL's and, in the case of Smalltalk, the
classes and methods to access such DLL's.

        I have experienced it a bit and I think it's an interesting product.
If you want I can send you their address.


                                                              Marcos
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                          mavm@di.ufpe.br
                                                          Marcos Magalhaes
                                                          UFPe/Recife/Brasil
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: latyr@IASTATE.EDU (Leslie A Tyrrell)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: GNU ST: getting user-created classes to create new instances
Keywords: GNU new
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:46:43 GMT
Reply-To: latyr@IASTATE.EDU (Leslie A Tyrrell)
Organization: Iowa State University

Hello again...

Previous tribulations with GNU ST have been resolved. Thanks to those
who have sent replies !

Now I have another question:

I am porting code from ST/V to GNU ST.  Mostly, there are no problems.
Right now, though, I am having trouble figuring out how to obtain new
instances of the classes I have created.  As an example, after having
done something like:

	Smalltalk at: #Les put: nil !

I can do:

	Les := Set new !
	Les inspect !

And find out that I am an instance of Set, which is what I expect.

But, if I do:

	Les := Edge new ! "Edge is a Class I have created"
	Les inspect !

I find out that I am an instance of Edge CLASS... which is not what
I wanted at all.  Anyone know what is going on ?

Thanks !

Les Tyrrell, latyr@iastate.edu
From: bush@.ox.ac.uk (Mark Bush)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: GNU new News
Keywords: GNU new
Date: 7 Nov 92 13:54:27 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Computing Laboratory
Originator: bush@thom5.ecs.ox.ac.uk

In article <1992Nov6.015604@IASTATE.EDU> latyr@IASTATE.EDU (Leslie A Tyrrell) writes:
#In my case, the classes I created on ST/V were all variableSubclasses,
#which you can see on GNU ST appear to have a problem.  Most of my classes
#did not define a 'new' message, as I was relying on Object to take care of that.
#Most of my classes did not actually need to be variableSubclasses,
#so I have changed them to subclasses.  I am left with one which actually
#DOES need to be a variableSubclass, as it is a subclass of OrderedCollection
#which is variable.  However, it passed the above test, ie, it gave me an
#instance of the class, not another class.  It does not have a 'new' message
#defined for the class.

Whether this is a bug or not, to get an instance of a variable class you
need to use the `new:' method and specify the number of indexed instance
variables (classes like OrderedCollection supply default `new' methods which
in turn call the `new:' method).

Mark
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: golovch@prim.rose.utoronto.ca (Gene Golovchinsky)
Subject: refreshing prior to displayOn:
Keywords: displaying graphics
Organization: University of Toronto, Department of Industrial Engineering
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:12:07 GMT

Is there a way to avoid the display flashing that occurs when a control
is redrawn? My control is a subclass of a FractionalWidget view and
includes a large bitmap. Every time I move the slider, the entire bitmap
needs to be redrawn because the area the control occupies is wiped before
I receive the #displayOn: message.  Any hints about what to do?  The
bitmap doesn't take long to copy; i've got it cached in the control.

Thanks for your help,

 2
G
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Jeff McAffer)
Subject: PPS on NeXT?
Reply-To: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Organization: University of Tokyo, tcejorP Project.
Distribution: comp
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:53:25 GMT


There was a rumour I heard somewhere (here?) that PPS was porting to
the NeXT and that it was going to be available soon.  Is this true?
Has it happened?  If not when?  Enquiring minds want to know!  (at
least those with NeXT boxes)

Thanks

--
--
ato de, |m         -- The cloud/haze/fog/icky grey stuff burnt off and 
                      sunlight filtered through.  It was daytime after all.
From: yjkim@stein.u.washington.edu (Yong Kim)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: A question on ST/V
Keywords: Need append an item in menu
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:57:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov10.175733.1292
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Washington

Hello netlanders,

I am currently working on a project based on Smalltalk/V 2.0.
My question is how to insert an item under &File menu so that
&File manu of Transcript window can display the added item.
I tried to modify a couple of methods in Menu class, but couldn't
add the item in "Smalltalk/V Transcript" window. (A new transcript
window I can see the item, thought).

Can any good Samaritans out there get me out of this trap? I have
tried more than 6 hours yesterday, and couldn't figure it out.
Thanks in advance!!!!!

-- 
Yong J. Kim  yjkim@milton.u.washington.edu
Department of Management Science
School of Business Administration
University of Washington
Xref: sparky comp.lang.lisp:2854 comp.lang.scheme:2572 comp.lang.clos:994 comp.object:4202
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.clos,comp.object
Subject: Common Lisp public review deadline approaching
Date: 11 Nov 1992 22:02:27 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

This is a reminder that the public review comment period for ANSI Common
Lisp ends on November 23, i.e. the end of next week.  Your comments must be
received by the X3 Secretariat by that date in order to be considered
during this public review.

For more information, get /public/think/lisp/pr-guidelines.text from
ftp.think.com.
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
From: ae769@yfn.ysu.edu (Ritesh Patel)
Subject: Pascal VS Lisp
Reply-To: ae769@yfn.ysu.edu (Ritesh Patel)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:10:16 GMT


I am presently writing a paper comparing lisp and pascal and would like
some feedback from someone who has a little experience using both of them
I am used Lisp for only about one month and i still can see the advantages
in it. 

For example I already have written the game Craps in lisp which would
take a lot of effort in pascal

I am looking for reliability, portability, data abstraction kinds of issues.
--
From: psykseth@aau.dk (Seth Chaiklin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Subject: packages (novice question)
Summary: Can one load a non-default package on startup?
Keywords: init, package, loading
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:40:56 GMT
Organization: Aarhus University, Denmark

Using CMU CL 16e.

Is it possible to write an init file (or use a command-line option)
that will execute an (in-package 'package) when lisp is started.
I have read friendly manuals, and experimented, but come up blank.
(I will not object if the answer comes in a slightly didactic or
tutorial form. (-: )

[What I'm trying to do....I'm using the OPS package.  I can load
a compiled version of the OPS package on startup, but I would think
there would be a way to give a (in-package :ops) as part of an
init file.]

Cheers,
  Seth Chaiklin
  psykseth@aau.dk
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: chyde@pecos.ads.com (Clinton Hyde)
Subject: Re: forward-chaining, Rete-type, OPS5-like packages available ?
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mountain View, CA 94043, +1 (415)
	960-7300
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:59:33 GMT


I don't know about a summary, but a version of OPS5 is freely
available in Lisp. I've had it for years, and built a reasonably
friendly UI for it on the Xplorer. it runs about 32 rules/sec on an
Exp-1, ~120 rules/sec on an Exp-2, about 200 on an Exp-2+.

it is grossly inefficient, building this humonguous network of stuff
using property-lists (well, the code dates from late 70s, so that's
not too surprising). you'd think that use of more compact structures
of some sort ought to speed things up a bit. I have not tried to
dissect the code enough to make this kind of change. 

be happy to supply all of the above, including the NASA benchmarks
code (some mid-80s examples, including the famous monkeys&bananas).

it runs about 200k, or thereabouts.

 -- clint
--

Clint Hyde		"Give me a LispM or give me death!" -- anonymous

Advanced Decision Systems/BAH	Internet:  chyde@chesapeake.ads.com
1953 Gallows Rd, Suite 600
Vienna, VA  22182-3934		(703) 902-7130
From: kend@data.rain.com (Ken Dickey)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Y not? (was Re^2: lambda calculus)
Keywords: Y
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:44:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: data.729
Organization: Microtek DSD, Hillsboro, OR

pirinen@cc.helsinki.fi writes:

>(If your head aches just looking at Y, I recommend the article 'The Why
>of Y' in Lisp Pointers a couple of years ago -- I'm sorry I can't
>provide a more precise reference but I'm separated from my reference
>library.)

Richard Gabriel: "The Why of Y", LISP Pointers, vol 2, # 2,
Oct-Nov-Dec 1988.


Enjoy!
-Ken
From: martinc@grover.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Subject: (A)KCL documentation
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:53:36 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: UNC Department of Computer Science

I believe there is a document with KCL describing the langauge
implementation; could someone mail me an address where this can be
found.  (Source or a postscript image by preference.)

Thanks

--
		Charles R. Martin/(Charlie)/martinc@cs.unc.edu
     Dept. of Computer Science/CB #3175 UNC-CH/Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3175
	    3611 University Dr #13M/Durham, NC 27707/(919) 419 1754
     "Oh God, please help me be civil in tongue, pure in thought, and able
      to resist the temptation to laugh uncontrollably.  Amen." -- Rob T
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Re: Is lisp easy to learn?
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:37:14 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <CHYDE.92Nov5151331@pecos.ads.com> chyde@pecos.ads.com (Clinton Hyde) writes:
>
>jeff's original prefix version:
>
>   defun equal x y
>     or eql x y
>        and consp x
>            consp y
>            equal car x car y
>            equal cdr x cdr y
>
>worse than this even:
>
>     eql x y or
>	 consp x and
>	 consp y and
>	 car x equal car y and
>	 cdr x equal cdr y
>
>this is gibberish without the parentheses...

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?  If the letter, I don't think
you will find Lisp readable no matter what.

Anyway, I can read both versions.  I happen to find the first easier.

-- jd