From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Yeshaya 7:14 [again] (was Re: lifdot & l'chaper)
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:59:22 GMT

In article <LJMORLY.92Sep15173910@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>In article <9209150340.AA20495@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>

[deleted to save space]

>> Please get your words straight.  First you present
>> "ka'aru" (pierced) when it's actually "ka'ari" (like a lion)
>> in Psalm 22, ending with a yod.  Same with the mistranslation
>> of "almah" as "virgin."
>

[deleted to save space]

>
>'Almah' in Isaiah 7:14 must mean virgin in the context, no matter do
>you translate it as 'virgin' (like Septuagint) or 'marrigeable girl'.
>
Actually it doesn't matter if the word means virgin or not since
the prophet was speaking of a specific woman who would give birth
to a child and who would still be very young when the enemy was
destroyed.  Thus, she could have married right after the prophecy,
given birth a year later, and the enemy would be destroyed within
the next couple of years.  However, it does seem that it is time to
repost the following.

Thanks go to Laura for pointing out a few places that needed
clarifications and some additional reasons why almah is not used
as 'virgin' in the xian sense (tho it seems she didn't mean to).

The following reasons are given why the sentence from Yeshaya
(7:14) is not an xian inference.

Therefore, the Lord, on His own, shall give you a
sign; behold *the* young woman is with child, and she shall bear
a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.

Note Immanuel - Imanu-El - G-d is with us

1. The word hinei - behold - denotes an immediate occurrence as
in Genesis 15:4 "And behold the word of the Lord came to him
saying ..."

Had this been meant to reference an event 730 years later, it
would have said something on the order of "And it will be at the
end of days..."

Another example is Judges 13:3 on when the angel tells the wife
of Manoach that she is going to bear a son.

2. The word Almah is used by xians as virgin because Miriam and
Rebecca are described by it.  However, the word means young
woman regardless of her virginity.  Example is in Proverbs
30:18-20.

18:  Three [things] were hidden from me and four I did not know.
19:  The way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a
    rock, the way of a ship in the heart of the sea, and the way of
    a man with a young woman (bealmah).
20:  So is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes
    her mouth, and says, "I have not sinned".

The implication is clear that these four things are undetectable
immediately after their occurrence.  This is definitely untrue
with a virgin after losing her virginity.

Also, it cannot be compared with an adulterous woman who
conceals her adultery.

That is, pasuk 20 starts with "kain", so it is, that is an
adulterous woman is the same as the four ways just mentioned.
The act cannot be detected and can be denied if no one has
witnessed it.

RaDak goes into detail on this pointing out that the term almah
is a reference to the young woman's age just as "naarah" is.  He
quotes the usage of the masculine term "elem" which is used as a
reference to the age of a young man as well as the quote from
Proverbs above.  He then lists the two possibilities (the
prophet's or the king's wife) and says that it must have been
the king's wife.

3. "the young woman is with child".  

  a.  The young woman means a specific woman the king knew

  b.  She is currently pregnant at the time the prophet is
      speaking.  This is the present not 600 years later.

Rashi says on this - "My [the prophet's - HEM] wife will
conceive this year.  This was the fourth year of Ahaz."

Rashi states that this could not have been Hezekiah because
he was born 9 years before Ahaz became king.  That is, Ahaz
reigned 16 years and Hezekiah was 25 years old when he became
king (from Kings II 16:2 and 18:2).

There are those (such as Rashi) who state that this was her
prophesy (to name him) and why she is called the prophetess in
chapter 8.

RaDaK says that this was the king's wife as the prophet's wife
would have been called "the prophetess" as she was in chapter 8.

The use of the term "harah" as has conceived or will conceive
can be seen in Judges 13:3.  Some manuscripts of Yeshaya have a
Rashi who points out that when the angel came to Manoach's wife
to announce that she was going to give birth to Shimshon, it is
written "Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son" when
it means you shall conceive and bear a son.  The Behold also
means immediacy and the past tense of conceive is used since it
was about to happen in the immediate future.  Most manuscripts
do not have this Rashi (from the Judaica Press English notes).

4. and she shall *call his name* Imanu-El.  Not that it is his
name but that it will be the name she gave him (not what the
Xian's call their man).

RaDaK believes that "she shall call his name" is a command not
part of the prophesy.  He states "It was the custom for the
mother to name her son and the prophet was giving her a command
to name him "Imanuel" since from the time he will be born you
[the king] will have peace and Hashem will be with them.
Therefore she is to call his name "Imanuel" [G-d is with us] and
what is the sign [followed by the sign in pasuk 15]."

Rash states that it was part of the prophesy and was the reason
that the prophet's wife is called a prophetess in chapter 8.
There are those who say that this was the name the mother gave
him and that it is the same child in chapter 8 that the prophet
named Maher Shallal Chash Baz in 8:3.

5. In verse 16 it says "For when the lad does not yet know how to
reject bad and choose good ...", something the Xian's claim their
man knew always (having godly powers).

6. In verse 16 it says "... the land whose two kings you fear
shall be abandoned".  The child's birth would be a sign that
these two enemies would be destroyed within a few years (before
the child was old enough to choose between good and evil).  Thus
the birth could not be something that would occur 730 years
later.  The context of the preceeding verses are that the king was
told to ask for a sign which he refuses to do.  The prophet then
says that G-d would give a sign even though it is not requested.
The sign is that a specific (the) young woman who is now pregnant
would have a son ...

7. The following verses, foretelling the invasion of the king of
Assyria, indicate that the prophet is still speaking of the
situation at hand not the future.

See also the book "Awake My Glory" page 67.

8. The following message was posted on the internet in several
different groups.


Actually, many conservative evangelical Christian theologians also
recognize that the word 'almah' in Isaiah 7:14 means only "young girl".
In fact, this was specifically pointed out by Henry Alford in his
4-volume "New Testament for English Readers", which, though first
published over 100 years ago, is still widely respected by many
conservative Christian theologians.  Very few serious conservative
Christian theologians give any weight to the LXX translation.

9. And one final note.  The idea of "virgin birth" makes absolutely
no sense in the Jewish context.  However it makes perfect sense in the
Greek context, where it was used as a sign of divinity (or close
connection to divinity).  Among others, Alexander the Great and an
Alexandrian sage claimed virgin birth to bolster their claims.  (Sorry
but I do not remember the name of that sage.  However, you can find a
reference to him in Hugh Schonfeld's, _The Passover Plot_.)

____________________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
| H_Markowitz@att.com |  The fish are the Jews, Torah is the water |
|_____________________|____________________________________________|