From: mathon@tss.com (John D. Mathon)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Intellectuals and totalitarianism (was Re: WORLD GOVERNMENT)
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:39:07 GMT
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems, Inc.

From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker)
>In article <1992Aug20.151706.8513@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.202256.28603@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug19.170820.12325@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>>>>ab> Alex Bunker
>>>>gs> Gary Strand
>>
>>>>  In any case, your average lefty intellectual is so far removed from
>>>>  basic theories on government power, economics, and monetary policies, that
>>>>  it's no wonder that wherever and whenever their ideas have been tried,
>>>>  (at best) the society as a whole has remained stuck, or has declined. I
>>>>  am including Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, and so on here too.
>>
>>>this is very funny. you just mentioned a set of countries EVERY one of which 
>>>has a healthier economy than the US as well as being more socially advanced.

All the coutries mentioned are in recession and have been in one for
a long time.  Not only that but they have unemployment rates DOUBLE THE
US Average.  Every one of them has had a transition in the last ten(except France)  
years to more conservative governments and the opposition leftist parties 
have become more conservative than the rightest were before.

Switzerland, which is the richest economy in Europe is in a protracted
recession, like the rest of the world and has the highest unemployment
in 45 years.  The US's unemployment rate is the highest in 8 years.

By what measure do you mean healthier?  The American is still the richest,
most productive worker in the world BY A WIDE MARGIN.  Americans make
more and everything is cheaper here.  The cost of apartments, homes,
Compact Discs, Computers, Gas, Food, EVERYTHING IS NEARLY TWICE AS
EXPENSIVE IN EUROPE.  Apartments are smaller, they have fewer amenities,
they have fewer cars, less bathrooms, much lower home ownership rates.

THERE IS NO REASONABLE MEASURE BY WHICH ONE CAN CONCLUDE THAT EUROPEANS
ECONOMY IS HEALTHIER THAN AMERICANS> 

THE ITALIANS DEBT IS THREE TIMES THE US DEBT PER CAPITA.  GERMANS ARE
NOT FAR OFF.  France and Germany and Britain REGULARLY HAVE RACE
RIOTS.  Britain just recently had a bomb explosion which destroyed
twice as much as the whole LA RIOT CARNAGE.  Some 1.2 billion in
damage from terrorist bombs.  Riots in Germany and France are common
against "immigrants" (read racism).

The europeans have a 2% market share in RAM chips compared to the 95%
split equally between the US and Japan.  Europeans fare badly in almost
every industrial sector.  Food production is nearly 5 times less 
productive.  European GNP has risen at 1/2 the US rate during
the eighties and now the Europeans are in the middle of a recession.
Interest rates in Europe are double US interest rates.

What basis do you use to conclude that European economies are healthies
than American?  Every study I have seen says the American worker is
40% more productive than his European or Japanese Equivalent.

>Have you seen the America #1 posts? USA has 30X the child poverty rate 
>of sweden and 20X that of Germany. The quality of life index rates the
>USA WAY DOWN because of lack of governemt health and welfare programs.

Couple of points.  Statistics such as these are not economic statistics
worth SHIT.  The reason is that child poverty rate is a subjective
measure that every country can calculate differently.  If you take the
average income of what is defined as poverty stricken in America,
you will find that it exceeds the average income in most of Europe.
WHAT THE HELL IS POVERTY RATE MEAN????  Quality of life measure is 
some measure socialists thought up to discount all the decisions
that real people make.  If the government decides to buy you something,
it doesn't mean that the quality of your life went up or went up more
than if you had decided to spend the money yourself.  There are no
Americans moving to Europe to enjoy this "quality of life".  In spite
of health and other benefits, not Americans are rushing to get these
things European style.  On the contrary, the direction has always been
in the other direction.  People from Europe come to the US to get
higher wages, cheaper goods and a better life.

What you are saying is basically totalitarian.  Let people decide
what their own quality of life is.

>Thes countries all have lower poverty levels and are nowhere near
>in as much dept.

You are an extremely misinformed person.  Germany, Britain, Italy all
have debt levels exceeding the US and have for ages.

>The USA is a social and economic BASKETCASE

You are a basketcase.  The US is in a recession.  It has been
in recessions before and it will be in a recession in the future.
Please read some history books, take some economics.  Read
something.

>due to the sillyness of reaganomics and lack of an industrial policy.

Fortunately, Reagan and folks never instituted an industrial policy
which is why the US retains a 40% edge in productivity on the richest
other countries of the world.  American made cars in europe are gaining
market share.  We own the computer industry, aircraft, software of all
types and are rapidly gaining exports at a phenomenal rate.  Europe now
imports more from the US than they export to us.  The US is the largest
exporter in the world.  Our goods are needed and treasured everywhere.
The US owns major parts of lots of other countries.  As they improve it
will benefit us.

>YOU must be politically blind not to see that!

Do you have any evidence for your statements?

>>>Luckily (for Americans)
>>>YOU are in the minority
>>>and the majority of americans realize this and are about to elect
>>>Bill Clinton as the next president who will invoke an industrial
>>>policy.

Speculation.

>>But not in the country with the highest productivity, highest GNP per
>>capita, and highest standard of living.   I wonder which is the cause
>>and which is the effect.
>
>Ifyou think this country is the USA then someone has fed you a little
>fib. let me let you in on a little secret. THIS SENTENCE IS SO FALSE
>IT IS HILARIOUS
>
>HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING??????????????????????????????????
>HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
>
>with 30X the child poverty rate of Sweden?

Sweden just threw out its socialist leaders.  They know that
their numbers are idiotic.  The people of Sweden are not
happy with their continuously sinking economy.  Sweden hasn't
had a good year in a decade and the people know that they are
way down the productivity curve which is why they are taking
a fifteen percent hit by devaluing their currency and privatizing
more industry.

Before you make stupid statements you ought to do a little research.
Sweden is a basketcase.  Europe IMPORTS MORE FROM THE US THAN THEY
EXPORT.  THEY ARE A NET IMPORTER.  Their goods are overpriced and
lower quality and lower tech.  They are losing badly and they are
in recession.  The Europeans unemplyment rates, debt rates, interest
rates are scandalous by american standards.  Frankly, this is
why the Europeans are electing conservatives and reforming their 
economy and going forward with free trade.  Their being beaten 
in high tech, in manufacturing, in food production and in almost
every industry.  You tell me after hearing this, who is the basket
case?
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc