HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Thomas Murray)
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<1992Aug27.215817.13690@fid.morgan.com>
	<1992Aug28.145611.23242@indetech.com>
	<1992Aug31.233247.1219@sinus.stgt.sub.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:57:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.233247.1219@sinus.stgt.sub.org> stefan@sinus.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Bechtold) writes:

Re: supertitling in Germany:

>>   I can't imagine that this technology is used anywhere in Germany.
>>   Apart from the fact that the opera houses are often old and it isn't easy
>>   to install such a supertitling, I think the german audience wouldn't 
>>   accept this because it disturbs the music/acting...

With the exception of the major international houses, don't opera
houses in Germany (and Austria) sing the operas in German (eliminating
the need for supertitles)? 

-tom murray
From: zqex@diku.dk (Carsten Svaneborg)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:45:24 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:

>>>No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
>>>Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.
>>>>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
>>>				       ^^^^
>>>another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.

>As far as I can see, this is the best proof that Van Beethoven in
>overvalued indeed.

>>  Everybody has his own favourite to be the greatest composer of all. You
>>  are really stupid, if you insist on Beethoven like that! 
>>  Especially as I have Bach in the first place and after him I don't care...

>Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
>I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
>greatest composer ever.

>Maarten

Yes. Bach comes first!

You havent realy heard classic music before you have heard 
Bachs mass in B-minor, Its the sublimation of all "real" music.
Or his consert for two flutes, Tocata and fuge in D, or the Goldberg 
Variations.

What has Beethoven ever wrote witch are just half as good!
The only Bethoven piece I can remember is the fifth 
( What else ), it is pritty good, espacialy in the end.

Have you heard any music written by Georg Fillip Telemann, he lived 
 (I cannt remember exactly) in the same century as Bach, and he was,
when he was living, more famous than Bach, but nowadays his is more
or less forgotten.

But his music it comparable with that of Bach, in my apinion.

      Zqex                              alias  Carsten Svaneborg
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Brahms - overvalued?!
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 04:39:49 GMT

ylee@syl.dl.nec.com writes:
>elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:
>
>>I'm sure most concert pianists know and have practiced the 25 variations
>>and fugue on a theme of Handel(*), though I can see why many wouldn't
>>dare program it...
>
>I have yet to hear a live performance of it.

I'm sure I heard at least one live performances of it, if not more.
I've been to too many concerts in my life to remember them all, but I
think that I heard S. Richter playing these (Brahms's) Variations in a
recital.

-Margaret
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:52:14 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) wrote:
[about Cardew]
> Did I say he "believed in genocide"?  I said he was a maoist, and you
> agreed.  Please point me to a version of this vicious doctrine which 
> does not advocate mass murder and thought-reform.  As practiced by Pol 
> Pot, perhaps?

Um, sorry, but Pol Pot wasn't a Maoist and the Khmer Rouge's ideology owed
exactly zip to any institutional version of Marxism... it was a kind of
neo-mediaeval peasant-insurrectionism grafted onto the economics of Samir
Amin... so trying to stick this one on Cardew is more than a little off
target...


> Point me in the direction of writings which contradict my claim that
> he was a maoist, and hence an advocate of suppression, thought-reform,
> and ideological control of free creative activity.

And point me in the direction of writings which contradict my claim that
Ives, Barber, Sessions and Copland were American republicrats, and hence
advocates of the invasion of the Philippines, the bombing of Hiroshima, the
My Lai massacre, the CIA's overthrow of Arbenz and Allende, and the
invasions of Lebanon, Santo Domingo and Grenada... in fact I have no reason
to believe any of them carry any personal responsibility for any of the
revolting barbarities carried out by the people they unthinkingly
supported.  It might have been preferable if some of them had thought a
little harder about what they were voting for but the sort of hysteria
Steve is pushing is hardly called for.  If they'd written victory marches
for Pinochet or songs in praise of the Green Berets, that would be
different; but Cardew never wrote the Maoist analogue, either.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Subject: South Pacific
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:01:25 GMT

A few weeks ago I bought the updated recording of "Girl Crazy" and
(well) I love it.  I was thinking of buying another "operatic"
look at the American musical and the one that leaps out at me is
"South Pacific".  But, I have some trepidation.  Carreras, Patinkin,
and Vaughan seem well cast to their parts, but I worry about Kiri
Te Kawana in the old Mary Martin role.  (I have heard her as Eliza
Doolittle in "My Fair Lady" and I much prefer Julie Andrews.)

So, if anyone's heard this version of "South Pacific" I'd appreciate
comments good or bad ... and opinions on how it compares (as
performance) to the Broadway recording with Mary Martin.

Thanks.

John D.

P.S.  By the by have any Rodgers and Hart musicals been recently
recorded?

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Schoeck
Originator: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:38:45 GMT

Anyone heard of the composer Schoeck?


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Apollinian & Dionysian Music
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:49:18 GMT

In article <ZVONA.92Sep3173633@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> zvona@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (David Chapman) writes:
>Nietzsche, rightly surely, argued (in ``The Case of Wagner'') that the
>music of his era was decadent, at a dead end.  He lost it just before
>the Modern period began.  It's interesting to speculate about what,
>had he been sane, he would have made of Satie, or had he been both
>sane and alive a few years longer, Stravinsky.  Would he have
>recognized a new beginning?  Would he have approved?

Well, remember that he only considered *German* music at a dead end.  
Bizet's _Carmen_ became his counter-music, the stuff he considered
healthy as opposed to the sickness of Wagnerianism.

I don't think he had much use for the ideas that Satie was interested
in; nor would he have been able to make much of the music.  He was,
after all, fairly conservative in his tastes (aside from Wagner).  His
own music is not exactly wildly progressive.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and B pianos
From: comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:09:29 GMT
 <1992Aug26.022235.10818@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> <1992Aug30.135146.15230@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:

>: Steinway does make B pianos, but the letter indicates the size of the
>instrument (they also make D's, L's and M's if memory serves), not a
>transposition interval :-)

Well, to be perfectly accurate, I have a B piano.  At least, approximately
B.  But this was not intended by its manufacturer.  It's just a means my
versatile piano tuner uses to prevent breaking strings by cranking it up to
a full C, or breaking my budget by overhauling it :-)

jj

John Thayer Jensen                      64 9 373 7599 ext. 7543
Commerce Computer Services              64 9 373 7437 (FAX)
Auckland University                     jt.jensen@aukuni.ac.nz
Private Bag 92019
AUCKLAND
New Zealand
From: rhoenes@PICASSO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU (Richard Hoenes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Looking for music guide book
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:03:07 GMT


I have the Penguin Guide to Compact Discs which I find useful.
However, I am now looking to get a guide that gives a description
of what is being played, not how well it is played/recorded.
That is, something that will tell me if a piece is firey with
an astounding crescendo, or a soft romantic piece, or whatever.

Richard
From: walkerd@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (David Walker)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Bartok Quartets
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:15:49 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University

Can anyone tell me if the Bartok String Quartets played by the
Tokyo Quartet are available ANYWHERE in any format? Local and
not-so-local stores tell me that they never made it to CD, and
that the LPs are no longer available. Can this be true? To my
ears, they are the finest performances yet, especially no. 4.

Any help at all would make my day! Thanks,

Dave


-- 
David Walker
ABB-131H
McMaster University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
In-reply-to: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU's message of Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:32:03 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Aug26.181851.27979@aero.org>
	<1992Aug26.193203.12678@Princeton.EDU>
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:31:32 CDT

Dave Golber writes:

   Stravinsky's _The History of a Soldier_ ...

Beware the misleading cognate.  The standard translation of the title
"L'Histoire du Soldat" is "The Soldier's Tale" and that's correct.  "Le
Conte du Soldat" might have prevented confusion, though with perhaps the
wrong shading.  Also, I've heard "Pavane pour une Infante Defeunte"
translated as "Pavane for a Dead Infant", though fortunately it has
become known, correctly, as Pavane for a Dead Princess.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Nigel Kennedy
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:44:38 GMT

In article <LANCER.92Aug30105246@wpi.WPI.EDU> lancer@wpi.WPI.EDU (Stephe Lewis Foskett) writes:
>
>I'm sure this has been discussed to death here already, but...
>
>I just got Nigel Kennedy's Four Seasons and Tchaikovsky & Sibellius Violin
>Concertos, and they are absolutely brilliant.  Can anyone tell me more
>about him or his recordings?  Particularly, how good are his other
>releases?  I hear he has a jazz CD, too...

Kennedy's finest releases are the Elgar Violin concerto (EMI) - the
finest since Albert Sammons's 1929 version - and the Elgar violin and
piano music (incl he sonata) with Peter Pettinger: I think this is on
Chandos.

Kennedy studied at the Menuhin school in England. He is in his early
thirties. He likes to affect a "working class" accent and outrageous -
for a classical musician - appearance. He is about (or maybe already
has) to give up touring and concentrate more on recording - largely
non-classical music. At a recent appearance in Toronto's HMV store he
played Jimi Hendrix's "Purple Haze" with acoustic bass and guitar
accompaniment. (Well, say what you like, it was infinitely better than
the appalling Kronos Quartet version).

Kennedy is a very talented man. I don't agree with everything he does,
but he *has* achieved his stated intention of brining classical music
to many who would not otherwise bother with it. His Four Seasons
actually got into the UK pop charts.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:03:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.123311.15422@nuscc.nus.sg> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.215902.8691@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
>Apter) writes:
>>
>>You appear willing to write off Cardew's left-wing totalitarianism as
>>merely consisting of occasional "loopy statements", and praise him for
>>never attempting to "ram his politics down anyone's throat" (as though
>>your average maoist actually cared about what people believe).
>>
>>But even apart from this, it is not difficult to find instances
>>of Cardew inveighing against "bourgeois" composers in language
>>that would make Brian Yoder blush.  Oh of course, that's just 
>>*polemic*:
>>
>>	"And seated over everything, the mythic heroes on
>>	their thrones:  Schonberg, Stravinsky, Ives, Webern,
>>	Stockhausen, and Cage, who have given their lives
>>	(and souls) in the struggle to find, for the bourgeoisie,
>>	a way out of the stifling moribundity of bourgeois
>>	music."
>>
>THIS is your idea of dangerous writing?

Writing is almost never dangerous.  Don't pin this one on me.  I 
offered these excerpts (only the first of which you choose to
reproduce) as specimens of Cardew's explicit ideologizing.

>					I would sooner cast my vote for
>"loopy," just because I cannot imagine all those thrones being particularly
>close to each other.  If this is Maoism because of the attitude it expresses
>towards the bourgeoisie, then given what Moses did to the worshippers of the
>Golden Calf, he must have been the ultimate Maoist. 

Brian Yoder calls Cage evil.  You foam at the mouth.  Cornelius
Cardew calls Cage soulless.  You laugh it off.  Something's gone
wrong here. 

>							Could it be that you
>cannot tell the difference between someone who wants EPATER LE BOURGEOISIE
>and someone who wants to line them up at the wall and shoot them?

Kindly re-read the second excerpt I posted.

>-- 
>Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
>National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
>Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
>Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cardew and "people's music"
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:08:12 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) wrote:
> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>: It would be interesting to compare the programming of Soviet orchestras
>: under Stalin with those of typical American orchestras under their
>: corporate-influenced dictatorships.  Were they very different?
> Yes it would - how much Krennikov or Tschedrin was plyed in the US.

Well, the US has got Howard Hanson, Walter Piston, Samuel Barber, William
Schuman, Vittorio Giannini, and a whole bunch of similar hacks who sound
pretty near indistinguishable from Khrennikov and Schchedrin and who are
played by the major orchestras solely because of their similar
acceptability to a bureaucratic establishment.  That's what I meant, not
that the specific works would be the same.  And I would expect 19th-century
warhorses to be similarly over-represented in both cultures.

But I don't *know*.  Are there studies of Stalinist concert programming?
Are there even empirical studies of *American* concert programming that
address this sort of question?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:11:02 GMT

The question of what to do about opera in foreign languages is a
thorny one. I agree with Jon Conrad (as I so often do) that it's
an essential part of the experience to know what the characters are
actually saying at every juncture. But I have problems with opera in
translation, as well.

One problem is that, as others have pointed out, it's often impossible
to make out the words even in one's native language, either because
the singers have poor diction or because the house doesn't serve
intelligibility well. (Sometimes the composer gets in the way, too,
but that's another story.) Another aspect, that nobody has mentioned
so far, is that translated text is not going to be the text that the
composer has set. There are obvious problems, like finding a
translation for any given phrase that (1) doesn't do violence to the
sense of the original, (2) sounds sensible in the target language, and
(3) scans properly. More subtly, the composer has often set particular
words to particular notes deliberately, and it's going to be very rare
that the translated text matches up the same way.

I don't have strong views about supertitles, having never seen them in
use. When I've seen televised or cinematic foreign-language opera with
subtitles, I usually find the subtitles obtrusive and annoying -- but
most of the operas I've seen that way were ones where I already knew
the libretto pretty well. I can imagine that supertitles could be
placed so that you wouldn't have to look at them, but there is the
problem of when to look at the supertitles and when to look at the
stage, and a danger of losing focus and concentration as a result.
(Fortunately, it generally takes a good deal less time to read a
fragment of operatic text than to sing it :-), although Mozart
recitative might be an exception.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Korngold
In-reply-to: marcus@aero.org's message of 31 Aug 1992 21:50:06 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 1 Sep 92 10:04:17 CDT


>   Someone asked about Korngold. I have some partial information.

Jim Sjveda (whom I find almost too annoying to listen to) did a show on
Korngold, which began with a really nice piano piece.  I got the
impression that this piece is fairly well-known, possibly Korngold's
peak.  Anyone know what it is?  In print?

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 30 Aug 92 18:56:13 EDT
 <1992Aug26.022235.10818@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> <1992Aug30.135146.15230@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1992Aug30.135146.15230@husc3.harvard.edu>, elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:

[...]

> : there *are* transposing pianos (cf. the Irving Berlin thread from a while
> back), but they are about as common these days as B[-natural] clarinets...
> 
> : harpsichords etc. tend to be tuned as B keyboards (compared to the 
> standard A=c.440 prevailing for non-"original instruments" pitch).  Have

Harpsichords often have a transposing keyboard which moves them from a=415 to
a=440, but considering that they are not usually tuned in equal temperament,
they usually are quite out-of-tune when tuned at one pitch level and transposed
to the other without being retuned.

> any of the historically informed keyboard players gone to the length of
> using the old fingering style?  [e.g. shunning 1st and 5th fingers when
> not forced by a wide interval --- a scale might be fingered 232323 etc.
> as opposed to the 1231234... style that took hold around 1750-1800.]

Yes.  I imagine it would be more accurate to say old fingering STYLES, as the
modern pianistic fingering had (my guess) not completely evolved by 1800, and
the pre-1750 fingerings were no doubt not identical to the current vogue,
either.  Many harpsichordists attempt to use fingerings contemporary with the
date of composition of the pieces they are playing.

Peter Hoogenboom
phoogenb@iubacs
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:49:55 GMT
Organization: Holos Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug28.081107.21503@cs.ruu.nl> clldomps@cs.ruu.nl (Louis van Dompselaar) writes:
>Someone once noticed that 'Bach
>had written far more works than Mozart'. Well, this is, of course,
>true, but then again, Bach was a cantor, so he HAD to write a lot
>of music.

Of course the fact that he lived nearly twice as long didn't hurt,
either.  And if we grant adulthood to these giants at, say, 20 years
old (just to pick a silly number in a silly argument), we see that
Bach had 45 years as an adult to Mozart's mere 15.

The rates at which these two men were able to produce truly great music
boggles the mind.  I've read some silly things about Mozart, but I can't
recall anyone apologizing for his not being prolific enough.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical