HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 04:18:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: sgi

In article <1992Sep8.032651.27783@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
|> 
|> 2) The assumption that "I'm right and you're wrong" is part of
|> the fundamental assumption set of Christianity, and many other
|> religions. This is exactly the same problem as preaching to those
|> who do not wish to be preached to(to tie in to alt.atheism).

I think you are mixing up two different things.   Anyone can
preach any time they want, and they do.   There is someone
preaching somewhere twenty four hours a day.

But this is not what some religious groups have in mind when 
they talk about 'helping' Gays.   They talk about Gays being 
mentally ill, and needing to be restrained for their own good. 
  
There is a much greater measure of compulsion in that than in 
preaching.   The belief that "I'm right and you're wrong" may 
well lead someone to express their opinion, and we protect their
right to do so by law.   It's when they claim that their 
supposed 'rightness' entitles them to apply coercion to other
people that I worry.

|> I.e. Christians who converted from other religions are often 
|> thankful to those who attempted to convert them. Therefore, from 
|> THEIR perspective, although they didn't want it at the time, 
|> NOW they can see that the people who tried were doing them a 
|> behavior. You see, according to this view, atheists and 
|> homosexuals are deluded by their sin and need help.

So, how would you feel about Christians passing laws to get
Atheists banned from jobs and housing until they convert?
I know it would be perfectly natural behaviour for a Vogon,
but how about for a human being?

|> Remember, many atheists don't see themselves as sick, but they 
|> DO once the convert. See the problem? You have to deny the 
|> fundamental assumptions in order to conclude that the 
|> transformation is wrong and once you've done that, your logic 
|> is inapplicable to the group you mean it to be binding on.

Not really.   There is a consistent position for such people
to take.   They can simply say "I didn't realize I was sick, and
now I realize that I was.    So I'll tell people that and let
them draw their own conclusions, but I won't coerce them, for
coercion is just another sickness".

|> 
|> So, I don't buy your argument that the golden rule prohibits
|> attempting to "cure" homosexuals.

With their consent, or through coercion?

jon.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:50:16 GMT

In article <AWERLING.92Sep8162452@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <Bu9nHs.LL9@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>
>-   Anyone care to prove that religion is inborn rather than learned?
>
>Of course it's inborn.  Whether or not people use religion to hide
>their bigotry, however, is a choice.
>

Why? Because you say so? Evidence please?

Jeff Achenbach
achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: nelson@mprgate.mpr.ca (Gary Nelson)
Subject: Re: Is rec.scouting the proper place for the discussion of Rovers also?
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Keywords: Rovers
Organization: MPR TelTech Ltd
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 00:19:02 GMT


|> In article <1992Sep15.191709.11705@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs911275@ariel.yorku.ca (MICHAEL A MACDONALD) writes:
|> |> 
|> |>   I am the mate of the 3rd Newtonbrook Rover crew. We are located in Toronto,
|> |> Ontario, Canada. I am wondering if rec.scouting the proper place for the
|> |> discussion of Rovers also. If so, I'd be very much interested in hearing |> |> ==============================================================================
|> |> Michael A. MacDonald                         
|> |> York University, Ont. ,Canada                             
|> |> E-MAIL: cs911275@ariel.yorku.ca            
|> |> 
|> 


|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Gary Nelson					MPR Teltech Ltd
|> 11th SurDel Errant Knights Crew
|> 18th SurDel Troop Counsellor
|> 

Screwed up my EMAIL address. it is:

nelson@mprgate.mpr.ca


Gary
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:32:46 GMT

jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger) writes:

> [....]  San Francisco
>Chronicle, East Bay Edition, Thursday 25 July 1991, page A17:
>
>	Quentin Alexander, director of the Mount Diablo Council,
>	condemned the cancellation of the grant and said the
>	United Way has no grounds for protesting Scout financing
>	or policies.
>
>	He acknowledged that each Boy Scout council signs an
>	agreement when it accepts United Way money that says it
>	will not discriminate against gays and other minorities.
>
>	In that agreement, however, is an amendment that says any
>	such pact cannot override "certain unique policies and
>	procedures" of the Scouts, Alexander said.  One such
>	policy, he said, is barring gays as Scouts and scout
>	masters [sic].

[...]
>But the facts of whether the Scouts concealed or lied about the policy
>are clear: they did not.
[...]

I didn't say that the BSA lied. I said "their reply was apparently so
vague that B of A thought the answer was no." You give another example
of vague BSA statements.

And what is the history of the amendment to the local United Way's
charter? Was it added just to give the BSA a backdoor/loophole? At the
very least, the BSA should be required to give the UW a list of which
otherwise protected groups its "certain unique policies and
procedures" exclude.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination...
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:32:24 GMT


In article <1992Sep04.031309.130060@zeus.calpoly.edu>, Chrome Jester writes:

|> This is what was reported to me first hand by him.  Now, either you are
|> calling me a liar or you are calling my friend a liar.  I do not appreciate
|> either claim.  

I certainly agree with you John, that a statement from Dave Hultberg which
would appear to lesser mortals than ourselves to be a simple disagreement and
request for clarification, normally warranting a polite response, is really a
personal attack at you in disguise and as such deserves your scorn and general
outrage -- flame on and keep vigilant!


|> And from what I've seen of the Order of the Arrow and
|> Scouting in general (having been involved in both), I don't find the story
|> hard to believe at all.  There were a number of leaders and memebers in both
|> organizations when I was involved that were so wrapped up in their own
|> self-importantance that I could easily see them over-stepping the bounds
|> when they felt they needed to (whether or not they were right).

It's fortunate that you and I lack such egos, and that we are especially free
from assuming the worst about those we've never met, except when we know that
they are guilty by association.


|> The point of the article, however, was not to engender pity for my friend...
|> 
|> JOhn.

I'll help you remind Dave that being sorry is equivalent to pitying.  He's
obviously socially challenged.  Perhaps you can recommend a good, caring
institution for him.

Rich


   "Please keep in mind that the ultimate goal [of hi-fi] is the
   reproduction of art, and that the invocation of science, while a neat
   parlour trick, is often unnecessary, flawed, and unreasonable."
   --  name mercifully withheld...                            rsd@sei.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation -- Denver, Colorado
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:32:17 GMT

arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
:  
: Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was providing an objective response to the
: question, from a viewpoint I do not share.  Although I do not share the PC
: view of homosexual behaviour either, I do not consider it evil.  I leave that
: to the religious fanatics.  I do not consider it just another alternate 
: lifestyle but I do not propose discriminating against those who do but 
: neither do I support special status for them.
: 
Gays and Lesbians do not want special status, no matter how often those
who are prejudiced against us keep saying that's what we want! We want 
equal rights and protection under the law, nothing more, and nothing less.

: There are two areas where I support a limited form of "discrimination" to 
: protect the rights of others.  For one, I have serious reservations about
: homosexual couples adopting children, who I suspect by most amazing
: coincidence will become homosexual.

Extensive studies have, time and again, shown that children raised by same
sex couples have the same incidence of homosexuality as children raised in
other situations (e.g. opposite sex and/or single parent households). Your
"suspicion" has been proven to be wrong. Not that I expect you to change 
your mind, you've proved your true colors by the following piece of bigotry:
: 
: Secondly, as the group that brought us AIDS and the group that still has
: the highest proportion of AIDS "victims", I feel most comfortable at arm's
: length until or unless the individual's status is known.
: 
What nonsense. You cannot catch AIDS from casual contact. Furthermore, no
"group" brought us AIDS - it's caused by an equal-opportunity virus. That
you consider yourself objective would be laughable if it was not so 
despicable.

: Unfortunately, I would keep any know AIDS victim at arms length and I suppoes
: that is a form of discrimination too but that is because our government
: refuses to protect up from AIDS and I have to take what measure seem
: appropriate to me.
: 
No matter how stupid, unfounded, and inappropriate those actions are.


Kathy
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2840 alt.atheism:16583
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 5 Sep 92 16:20:58 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <mccalley.715646775@topaz1> mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley) writes:
>And maybe AIDS can strike anyone, but it mainly strikes homosexuals.

   If you believe this, than I would shudder to think that you may
   now or sometime in the future have a heterosexual encounter.

   AIDS worldwide is a heterosexual disease.  It was, at first in
   the US, primarily a male homosexual disease, but that is not even
   currently the truth.  The largest growing infected population in
   the US are the heterosexuals.  It is the sixth leading cause of
   death among teenagers in this country.  Lesbians have the lowest
   incidence of infection of any sexual orientation in the US.

   I see that the religious propagandists has done a far better job
   of spreading misinformation than I thought.
>
>So the here are the two main parts of the argument:
>
>	1)  A deadly disease strikes MAINLY one particular group of people.
>	2)  This same particular group has a hard time reproducing.

  Which, of course, falls apart with you erroneous assumptions.

>
>When I add these two up, the future don't look good for gays.

  When I add up all of the intolerance and bigotry I see in this
  country, I agree.



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"If I have to resurrect you, I'll resurrect you, whether you like it
or not!"
	 Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_

"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
learn, eventually."

  --Robert Heinlein
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<AWERLING.92Sep8160721@dante.nmsu.edu>
	<1992Sep8.230050.10290@cs.yale.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:29:15 GMT

I've been asked to support my claim that telling a gay teen-ager
s/he's immoral, sinful, sick, going to hell, etc. is IMMORAL.

Basic evidence:  You're dealing with a kid.  You should NEVER try to
make a kid feel bad about themselves.

Unless, of course, you feel good about making a teenager commit
suicide.

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:31:33 GMT

katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:

>Karen Hill, you are an immoral, ignorant bigot. Your immoral, ignorant
>bigotry hurts children.


>Kathy
 That is your opinion of me....Since you know nothing of me except my opinion of
this issue, I think you have very little to pass judgement on.

I am sorry that you disagree with my opinion or that you disapprove of my 
parenting techniques, but it is my perogative to raise my children as I
see fit and to do for them what I consider to be in their best interests.

If it disagrees with your opinion, so be it, but back off the name-calling.

It is offensive and certainly not constructive to this discussion.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.

-Karen Hill
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Troops near the Reston, VA area?
Summary: Contact your local Council Office
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:12:58 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ

In article <1992Sep9.165521.16280@linus.mitre.org>, rzakon@mitre.org (Robert H Zakon) writes:
> What BSA troops are closest to the Reston, VA area?
> Robert H'obbes' Zakon, rzakon@mitre.org, hobbes@hobbes.cwru.edu

Your best resource is to contact the local BSA Council office. They will have
the most complete list.   - Good Luck.
-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Spliting the group
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:10:30 GMT



kathy@oracorp.com (Kathy Knight) writes:

[...]
>Then
>we'll have any number of smaller groups complaining because a
>discussion is going on and their particular newsgroup has been added
>to a long list of other newsgroups, thus making it necessary to kill
>the articles.
[...]

Huh?

jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans) writes:

[...]
>But what about this approach: how about making rec.scouting
>or rec.scouting policy, as the case may be, moderated,
>but only to the extent of not allowing cross-posting to it?

If you want to moderate rec.scouting.program/local/wisdom/misc to
exclude articles crossposted to rec.scouting.policy or other
newsgroups, that is fine with me (since I probably won't be reading it
anyway). But don't ban crosspostings to rec.scouting.policy; such a
ban increase the use of network resources, as articles were posted
twice, and would isolate discussions.

(If you personally don't want to read any crossposted articles, a
newsreader like "rn" that makes it easy to kill such articles. If you
only want to read a crossposted article once, a newsreader like "nn"
that only displays them once.)

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kenlee@iitmax.iit.edu (Kenneth H. Greenlee)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 20:21:25 GMT


Can future posters *please* remove chi.general from this thread?

Ken
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: geh@a.cs.okstate.edu (G. E. Hedrick)
Subject: Re: Boards of Review
Organization: Oklahoma State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 19:24:27 GMT

In article <1709@necis.UUCP> mgodbout@necis.UUCP (Marc Godbout) writes:
>I've been told that when participating in a board of review, the reviewers
>should not spend any time grilling the scout on scout knowledge, but should
>more or less talk to him about his plans and goals.  I was wondering what other
>troops do.  What do you think the board of review is supposed to accomplish?
>Should we be preparing the scout for the Eagle board of review (whatever that
>is)?  How do you decide if the scout is ready or not for advancement?
>Thanks for any help you may have.

A good board will check to determine whether the scout has indeed met all
the requirements.  We are not to "grill" the youth, but it IS the boards'
duty to make certain the people (scoutmaster, troop guides, etc.) who
sign the boys' books are making certain the requirements are done properly.
On more than one occasion we have found problems with classes the
boys took in summer camp.  I would not hold up a boys' advancement because
of an error by a leader or camp counselor.  Of course, we are not to
ask the boy to give a repeat performance of the requirements.

I frequently take a rope to a Board of Review and request that a boy tie
some knots he learned for an earlier rank.  If he cannot tie one, then
it reminds him to go practice that particular scoutcraft skill.  The
same can be done with other scoutcraft skills.  These skills do
not stay with an individual unless they are practiced continually.
(How many Tenderfoot knots can you tie? :-)
-- 
G. E. Hedrick (E-Mail:  geh@a.cs.okstate.EDU)
(405)744-5668 (voice)
(405)744-7074 (FAX)
Computer Science Department
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 6 Sep 92 16:32:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Sep6.163201.7983
Distribution: usa
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <1992Sep4.004348.17633@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve
Dyer) writes:
>
> Scout Leader (or Scout): "Hey, what happened to justice and dignity based on
>			  my humanity???"
> Fraulein Hill:	  "It's the gas chamber for you, faggot--you're outa
>			  here."

Uh, reality check.  She never suggested killing or even discriminating
against gays.  The fact that you've twisted her argument into this is
rather offensive.

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: germain%munich.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (H. James de St. Germain)
Subject: Re: Current Batch of Uniforms
In-reply-to: jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com's message of Fri, 11 Sep 92 18:24:13 GMT
Organization: U of Utah
	<1992Sep11.182413.8632@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com>
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:50:32

John McCollum writes:
>  Mark, are you really able to get your scouts to keep their socks pulled
>up?  Here in Texas, the current fad is to push the sock down to the ankles.
>Our boys wouldn't be caught dead with them pulled all the way to the knees.

I'd like to address this issue.  As a scout, I served in a troop that was not
able to furnish (read: some families were unable to afford) full uniforms for
all scouts, none-the-less, we were one of the finest troops I have had the
pleasure to be associated with.  The fact that we did not wear full
dress uniforms (as currently is seen in "Boys Life") when we hiked the 
Grand Canyon (twice), Yosemite, Philmont, Havasupi, Bryce and Zion, [50 milers
all over a 6 year period] and the Gila Wilderness and numerous smaller
trips, had little to do with the effectiveness the scouting program had
on the individuals of our troop.

Yet, as an older scouter (18-21) I worked for a summer camp where all
staff were required to be in full uniform at all times (we had class
A's and B's).  This included Scout Socks that were worn up at all times--
and I personally must have reminded the staff 1000 times to pull those
socks up.  Both as a scout and now as an adult leader, I have known the
stirring effect that a large group of well dressed staff members acting
in concert (singing, cheering, working) has apon the boys.  It is
inspiring to see 20 staff members always in shorts (regardless of those cold
mountain nights) always with their socks up and their hats on and
their shirts tucked in.  It is equally inspiring to see a troop coming down to
the lodge in patrol columns with patrol flags, and all members in uniform
and all members wearing their troop neckerchief. (I find individualized
troop scarves to be one of the most note worthy items a troop can 
display).

So whats my point?  If you can't afford the entire uniform, a shirt and
a good attitude are all you need.  If you can afford the uniform, by all
means get it and wear it proudly.  I would bet that the boys in John's Troop
which dont wear their socks up, also dont want to wear their uniforms
in public (just conjecture, as there are many many fine proud texan scouts).

Your's in Scouting
    jim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
H. James de St. Germain       	Department of Computer Science
germain@asylum.utah.edu		University of Utah

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality