From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: CONTRADICTORY MORMON DOCTRINE, Part 1
Date: 9 Jan 93 13:50:50 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1993Jan9.174502.21704@news.ysu.edu>,
 af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.)
 gets out his binary reading glasses and writes:

> CONTRADICTORY MORMON DOCTRINE
>  
> (1) Is God an Exalted Man?
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "Believest thou that this Great Spirit who is God, created all
>      things." Alma 18:28
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's;
>      the Son also..." D & C 130:22

"Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my
spirit; ... and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit
*will* *I* *appear* unto my people *in* *the* *flesh*." 
(BoM: Ether 3:16, emphasis mine -JBH)

> The Bible
>      NO. Numbers 23:19 ""God is not a man"; 

"God is not a man, that he should *lie* ... [or] *repent*: ..."
(Numbers 23:19, emphasis mine -JBH)

> John 4:24 "'God is Spirit".

"For man is spirit. ..." (Doctrine and Covenants 93:33)

> (2) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the One God
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, including
>      infinite and eternal." D & C 20:28
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead. As each of
>      these persons is a God...a plurality of Gods exists" Mormon Doctrine
>      -McConkie, pgs.576,577

_Mormon Doctrine_ is not Mormon Scripture.  Try Doctrine and
Covenants 130:22-23 for Mormon Scripture.

> The Bible:
>      Yes. 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
>      the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

"That *they* all may be one; *as* *thou*, *Father*, *art* *in*
*me*, *and* *I* *in* *thee*, that *they* also may be one in *us*:
that the world may believe that thou has sent me." 
(John 17:21, emphasis mine -JBH)

"... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34).

"... The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the
Sone likewise." (John 5:19)

"But [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost [1], looked up
steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus [2]
standing on the right hand of God [3]." (Acts 7:55)

"... it came to pass, that Jesus [1] also being baptized, and
praying, the heaven was opened."

"And the Holy Ghost [2] descended in a bodily shape like a dove
upon him, and a voice came from heaven [3], which said, Thou art
my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:21-22)

> (3) God is Eternal
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "For I know that God is not a partial being, neither a
>      changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity." Moroni
>      8:18
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all
>      eternity. I will refute that idea." Mormon Doctrine -McConkie,
>      pg.321.

_Mormon Doctrine_ is not Mormon Scripture.

> The Bible:
>     Deuteronomy 33:27 "The eternal God is your refuge"

"Then shall they be gods, *because* they have *no* *end*;
therefore *shall* *they* *be* from everlasting to everlasting
[note the future tense], because they continue; then shall they
be above all, *because* all things are subject unto them ..."
(Doctrine and Covenants 132:20)

"Man was also in the beginning with God.  Intelligence, or the
light of truth, was not created ot made, neither indeed can be."
(Doctrine and Covenants 93:29)

> (4) God Changes
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "There is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from
>      everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God." D & C 20:17
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive,...whose
>      perfection consists in eternal advancement..." Articles of Faith,
>      pg.430

_Articles of Faith_ is not Mormon Scripture.

> The Bible:
>      No. Malachi 3:6 ""For I am the LORD, I do not change".
>
>
> (5) There is a Plurality of Gods
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one"..."and whoso shall
>      declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine,
>      the same cometh of evil." 3 Nephi 27,40
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "These three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition
>      there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds
>      without number, who...are Gods." Mor.Doc., McK., pgs.576,577

_Mormon Doctrine is not Mormon Scripture.

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or
in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

"But *to* *us* there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all
things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all
things, and we by him." (1 Corithians 8:5-6, emphasis mine -JBH)

> The Bible:
>      No. Isaiah 43:10 ""You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My
>      servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And
>      understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor
>      shall there be after Me."
>  
>  
> (6) Can Men Be Gods?
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered,
>      No." Alma 11:28,29
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "Then they shall (those resurrected) be gods, because they have
>      no end." D & C 132:20
> The Bible:
>      No. Isa 44:6 ""Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his
>      Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last;
>      Besides Me there is no God.

See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 listed above.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: be we know that, when he shall appear, we shall
be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

> (7) God Created Man
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. And I, God, created man in mine own image." Moses 2:27
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "Man was also in the beginning with God."; "For man is spirit."
>      D & C 93:29,33

Proof-text.

For context:

"Man was also in the beginning with God.  Intelligence, or the
Light of truth, was not created ot made, neither indeed can be."
(Doctrine and Covenants 93:29)

"All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed
it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there
is no existence.

"Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation
of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly
manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

"And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under
condemnation." (Doctrine and Covenants 93:30-32)

"For man is Spirit.  The elements are eternal, and spirit and
element inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.;"
(Doctrine and Covenants 93:33)

"And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

"The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the
tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is
defiled, God shall destroy that temple."
(Doctrine and Covenants 93:34-35)

> The Bible:
>      Yes. Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the
>      ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
>      became a living being."

"... Seest thou that ye created after mine own image?  yea even
all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

"Behold this body, which ye now behold is hte body of my spirit;
and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I
appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people
in the flesh." (BoM: Ether 3:15-16)

> (8) Can God Be Seen?
>  
> Mormon Scripture:
>      No. "For without this (the authority of the Priesthood) no man can
>      see the face of God, even the Father, and live." D & C 84:22
>      [Note: J. Smith did not have the Priesthood when he claimed to see
>      God.]
> Contrasting Mormon Scripture:
>      Yes. "And he (Moses) saw God face to face, and he talked with
>      him...Moses could endure his presence." Moses 1:2, Pearl of Great
>      Price

Proof-text.

"For without this no man can see the face of God, even the
Father, and live.

"Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the
wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that
they might behold the face of God;

"But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his
presence; therefore the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was
kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his
rest in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of hos glory.

"Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy
Priesthood also;

"And the lesser priesthood continued ...."
(Doctrine and Covenants 84:22-26)


Re: Joseph Smith not having the priesthood when he had the first
vision:

"For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except
quickened by the Spirit of God."
(Doctrine and Covenants 67:11)

> The Bible:
>      No. John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten
>      Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

"And the Lord spake unto Moses Face to Face, as a man speaketh
unto his friend. ..." (Exodus 33:11)

"But he being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into
heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right
hand of God,

"And he said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of
man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56)

cc: af664@yfn.ysu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu