From: fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:45:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: cco.1992Aug29.214559.29897
Organization: Institute for Computational Mechanics in Propulsion
Originator: toshi@sandman

In article <1992Aug20.182830.20694@qiclab.scn.rain.com> 
wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai) writes:

>....................x 
>	This might sound confusing but the bottom line seems to be - who's 
>story do you buy ? My personal belief is to approach each and every scripture
>(which I have the time and access to ;-) on its own merit. Seriously question
>and examining the statements and propositions made ON ITS OWN MERITS based
>on the general Buddhist principles (which I want to be deliberately vague 
>about).
>

One major point that Buddhadasa, a Buddhist with no prefix, has made 
all along is that we must know how to distinguish between the bark 
and the core. He said that all the mahayana sutras he read, despite
many metaphysical and supernatural barks, convey similar important
message that "one should not be attached to the Five Aggregates"
which is the 'core teaching' of the Buddha.

Weng Fai wrote further:

1. None of the words in ANY sutra can be specifically associated with
the Buddha. Every sutra (including the Pali Canon) has been edited many, many
times over with material added and deleted as late as the Muslim invasion
of India in the 12th (or is it 14th ?) century.


Tagi Responded:

This is untrue.  On an individual and social basis, we may associate any
words in ANY sutra with the Buddha.  We can never be proven wrong,
and it is quite possible that the Buddha speaks to US with these words.

Yes, the sutras have been edited.  It is quite possible that this editing
CLARIFIED the words through the Buddha's influence ON the editors.  Thus,
editing on its own cannot be used as a basis to reject our attribution of
the sutra to the Buddha.  It is a personal and, to the community which does
so, an EMOTIONALLY revealed truth.  If you or if 'scholars' don't understand
it, then perhaps you are farther from the Buddha.  Or, perhaps you simply
have a different RELATIONSHIP with the Buddha on your different path.

My comments:

Buddhadasa used to say that the Pali Canon needs be torn off by as 
much as 60% to truely represent the Buddha's words. How dare he say
that? Well, it's back to bark-and-core issue again. According
to Buddhadasa, the most truthful sutras are "Kalama Sutra" (Thou shaltn't
believe by authority of text, etc.) and  "Gotami sutra" (Those Dhamma that
are conducive to quenching the suffering are the true Dhamma that I
preach.)

Then what is suffering? Suffering , according to Buddha and all of
the sutras (talk about authority of text :-), is attachment to
the Five Aggregates.

If chanting "Nam Meoho Renke Kyo (sp?)" can lead one to less (preferably
no) attachment in the Fives, then it could be considered as
indirect words of Gotama.

As opposing to the Nichiren's approach of chanting this mantra as I am,
I still think that the chanting could serve a purpose. At a minimum,
it could produce faith (blind faith sometimes is better than no faith :-)
and calming effect. If the followers are smart (as I am :), then
the chanting can even be used as a Vipassana (insight) meditation
by seeing the arising, persisting and disbanding of the Body, Sensation,
Mind, and Dhamma which are associated with the process of chanting.
Don't look down on this seemingly nonsense practice. If one is observative,
one could learn a lot from it. (I hope that this is what the Nichiren
people have had in mind all along.)

If all else fell, Well...there are still future lives to spare :-)
I even would like to suggest those that are 'too smart' to try this
path out; it may work for you (insofar as you 'don't' know what you
are doing:-). As we all know, smart people tend to reason too much.
The reasoning process tend to kick the mind into infinite loops and
the mind can never be calm -- a fisrt step toward spiritual quest.
Ven. Sariputra whom the Buddha praised as being 'the one who excels
in intellectual quality' was one of the last to attain enlightenment!


Back to Buddhadasa firely comments. He said that many of the content
of the Pali Canon have nothing to do with the quenching of suffering
whatsoever; many of them are even ridiculous. Story about Giants
fighting with demi-gods and the like, or story about devinities.
Based on the Kalama and Gotami sutras then one has no choice but to
regard those as not the words of the Buddha.

Buddhadasa reasoned further that in the old days, it was probably
necessary to have such things; otherwise Buddhism might not
be appealing to the masses since most of them (through out the
world we may say) deeply believed in such things. Make no mistake
about it, there was a fierce competition between Hinduism and
Buddhism. Hinduism tried to assimilate Buddhism by adopting the
Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu while Buddhism try to glorify itself
by deifying the Buddha as more superior to all the Hindu gods.


I agree with Weng Fai that we should read the sutras with care.
I would go even beyond Buddhadasa's suggestion in that I would
like to see all Buddhist sects to have a common 
collection of sutras, about the size of the Christian Bible.
(As of now, they are too voluminous for an average man to tackle.
Those who make a career out of interpreting these sutras will not like it :)
This Buddhist Bible would contain only the core teaching of the
Buddha. All the barks should be collected into various commentaries.
The Abhidhamma definitely should be regarded as a commentary.
(Of course, certain passages of it which are relavant to suffering
 should not be excluded.)

Finally, Buddhadasa said that the sutras that begin with 'Maha' (Great)
should be read with extreme care. He didn't believe that the 
Buddha would give such a long talk in one  session. Even if so,
it would be difficult to remember the entire sutra without
interpolations.

Please bear with me for quoting Buddhadasa too much. He is too good
not to be quoted all the time :-)

-Tawit Chitsomboon  [fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov]

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