HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Target materials for armor piercing ammunition?
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:27 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Sep11.041702.15555@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#
#One of our guys rummaged up an 18" by 24" piece of armor steel for our
#gong.  It's been out at 300 yards for some time now (4 years?) and has
#only had a couple of the corners chipped off.  This stuff is amazing - 
#about 3/8" thick and really takes a beating.
#
#The big problem here has been keeping the stand holding it up alive -
#it take a real beating.  The best solution wa to run most of the stand
#behind the plate and to mount the plate using an 18" wide chunk of
#tire - the bullets just puncture the tire without breaking much. 
#Better than the chain that was breaking every few weeks.
#
#I can't think of a source of armor plate - perhaps someone else will
#have a solution?  I'd like some smaller gongs...
#

Any good steel yard should be able to get you T-1 steel.  THis should hold
to most rounds, unless they're penetrators.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:17 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

#                                             However, using almost any
#commercially loaded rounds can be defended, if you know your stuff and
#have done the research necessary to explain your choice in a rational
#manner.

#Jerry Roe
#jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr

	AND. . . get an excellent expert witness!
-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Youth Shooter Questions
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:25 GMT
Organization: Michigan Technological University

In article <1992Sep9.143214.21953@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>,
jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

# If your child wears glasses, get her a pair with the "super"
# lenses (cannot think of the name, Lens Crafters uses the stuff in
# their "Feather Weight" lenses -  I think it is carbo- something

Polycarbonate (AKA Lexan? Or is there more than one type of this stuff?). 
It's the plastic they use for bullet-proof glass in banks and the like.
You should be able to get it at *any* eyeglass shop.

I bought polycarbonate lenses for my last pair of glasses.  I like them;
They're very light.  The shop I went to is owned by a fellow shooter.
He had taken a lens blank, and shot it at about 10 feet with his 12 Ga.
No pellets penatrated it.  It did crack the lens, but all the pellets
bounced off.  Good stuff! (keep in mind that *all* plastic lenses scratch
quite easily, even the "scratch proof" coated ones...)

# ;-{)  ).  If she doesn't wear glasses, I suspect you could buy
# some without any prescription at most optometrists.  I know it's
# an expensive solution, but then, what's an eye worth?

They do make these, also.  Check around...

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 7 Sep 92 20:46:28 GMT
Organization: N/I

In article <1992Sep2.174440.18525@iex.uucp> hancock@iex.iex.com (David Hancock) writes:
#In article <1992Aug26.025939.6705@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
##In article <1992Aug24.224445.20992@inmet.camb.inmet.com> tas@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tom Sprott) writes:
##}I'm not a rec.guns reader, but the news story of Mr. Weaver (the fugitive holed
##}up in Idaho) has made me curious about something.  His original federal weapons law
##}violation was the possession of a sawed-off shotgun.  What is the purpose of 
##}such a gun, and why is it illegal where a normal shotgun isn't?
##
##It's reasonably concealable and has a wide dispersion pattern of shot.
#
#What length barrel is necessary to achieve a *wide dispersion pattern*?
#Open choke 18" barrels don't spread that much (compared with lore) -- are
#we talking about a 6" or so "snubby"? (I didn't see the news story).

More like 17.9 inches, according to article <BtK0v9.9wJ@hsi.com>
[in t.p.g., I think], by bobwest%code3@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Westover):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
#It has come to my attention that Mr Weaver's "crime" was having a shotgun
#barrel too short by *** .1 inch ***. Certainly justification for all the
#bloodshed that has and will occur over the matter. [sarcasm off]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: First Gun Suggestions?
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:58 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep9.144334.703@nntp.hut.fi> r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
#In article <1992Sep8.134139.29729@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
##a .45 semi-auto. The .22 pistol is a specialist's weapon with limited
##appeal to the average shooter except for it's cheap ammo. 
#
#A specialist's weapon? Is everybody only interested in self defence
#when talking about handguns?

Mika, the .22 is a wonderful paper puncher's weapon. There's nothing
better. But, for a *first* gun for a shooter in the US who may someday
migrate to a heavier weapon, it can allow you to develop some seriously
bad habits that will be difficult to overcome in the future. That's
why I don't like to start out beginning handgunners on a .22 pistol.
A heavy .38 or .45ACP is a much better way to learn the basics of handling 
a handgun. You'll develop better grip, better trigger control, better
recoil response, and most of all an appreciation for the destructive 
possibilities of a handgun with one of these than you will starting
with a .22 that you can casually limp wrist into the 10 ring.

I have a High Standard Supermatic Citation that I use when stalking
the wily X ring, but I wouldn't want to start out a handgunner on
that pistol with it's featherlight trigger, adjustable weights, and
muzzle brake. And I certainly wouldn't start them out on a toy plinker
like the Ruger, I have one of those too. Instead, I'd put a Smith
Mod 19 or 25 in their hands, or a Colt .45, all with moderate target
loads to start. That gets them used to the weight, recoil, and noise
of a big gun right away, before they can develop bad habits. They
don't argue about wearing hearing protection at all times. They learn
to hold on tight with straight wrists when they fire. They learn to
deal with recoil. These things are harder to teach with a .22 that
weighs little, recoils not at all, and *seems* quiet.

Later, when they have the basics down cold, is the right time to
bring out the serious paper punching tools so they can work on
their breathing and refine their sight picture. After that, bring
out the toy to stalk the wily tin can for a little recreation.

Gary
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Barns X-Bullet
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:40 GMT
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


In article <12493@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> tcmaint@sail.labs.tek.com (-Broadband Network Maintenance) writes:
#
#
#Netters,
#
#I am interested in any first hand experience with Barn's new X-Bullet.
#Please inclued animal taken, shot placement, tissue distroyed, and distance 
#to animal.

Blacktail buck 150 pounds during the 1990 hunting season.
Shot broadside centered vertically and 3 inches behind front shoulder.
3/8" entry hole and 3/4" exit.  The bullet clipped the top of both lungs
and the front of the liver.  No meat was lost.  Distance to the animal
was 50 yards.  This animal ran about 75 yards after being shot and it took 
several minutes to find him.  For the small blacktail the bullet is too
tough.  However, I understand that Barnes has redesigned their bullets to 
expand faster.  I used a .375 H&H with the 270 grain Barnes-X bullet at a
velocity of 2600 fps.  Your results with a 30 caliber bullet and higher
velocity may be different.  In .375 I would reserve the X-bullet for large
game (Elk, Moose and GrizzlyBear).

After this and another experience where half of the backstrap was lost, I went 
back to the 30-06 for deer.

#
#I am most interested in 30 cal, 150 gr x-bullet stories, but am interested in
#all others too.
#
#Thank you in advance,
#
#--Bruce


-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: gswst@gl.pitt.edu (Gary S. Wachs)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Firearms in Texas; an update on responses received
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:08:28 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh, Electrical Engineering


I received a lot of very good responses to my inquiry about Texas rule
of law regarding firearm possession and use.  Thanks to all those who
contributed; well over 50 individuals, many of whom included an entire
transcript of page 109 of ATF P 5300.5, 'State Laws and Published Ordinances -
Firearms' 19th Edition ("INFORMATION CONCERNING THE CARRYING AND POSSESSION 
OF WEAPONS").  

It is clear that there is no legal way for a civilian living in Texas to
carry a handgun for self-defense.  So much for the 2nd ammendment. My God,
what led this this?

The issue that concerns me at this point is what happens in actual practice.
You see, I get the impression that lots of Texans (perhaps a few percent)
carry concealed anyway.    If you don't get caught and never need to draw,
what the authorities don't know won't hurt them.  If you do get caught
(someone notices when you bend to tie your shoes or something), you
get "arrested". Then the arresting officer can decide that your case comes 
under one of the provisions of 46.03 and releases you on the spot. Or s/he may 
call her/his supervisor and have her/him decide. Or, they may take 
the case to the District Attorney and let them decide (in which 
case you get to sit in jail for a while). Finally, you can argue 
your case before the judge.  Is this is fair hypothesis?  Is the
firearm confiscated?  Are we talking slap on the wrist here?

Or, more importantly, what are the possibilities if you are put into a
textbook life-threatening situation and, in the process of shooting-to-stop
from being shot or beaten or dismembered, you kill the guy/gal.  Anyone
who has stories to tell from actual case files, what precedents were
applied?

Gary
From: bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Buying fired brass
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:31:06 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <9209141733.AA04389@a2.cim.cdc.com> jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2197) writes:
#I was looking through Shotgun News and saw Widener's Reloading
#add.  One section was labeled "Once-Fired Brass Fired Brass".
#The prices ($14.75/1000 for 38spl.) seemed darn cheap.  Maybe
#too cheap.  Does anyone have any input on what to expect from
#this stuff?   [ Much deleted for brevity ]

One of the more curious things I've seen offered as .38 brass
was a rivet case (i.e. the cartridge was used for driving 
rivets). It all depends on how much you trust the dealer 
(although $14.75 isn't a whole lot to risk to find out).
Visually inspect them carefully before loading them.

#And lastly, where do most people get their brass? Buy new? Primed or 
#unprimed? Range scrounging?  So far I have just bought inexpensive

I generally prefer commercial cases for 9mm when I can get them.
I like to avoid the extra processing involved in military
brass if the prices are comparable. For .223 and .308, military
brass prices for once fired are usually so much better that I go
through the extra processing. I also tend to stick consistently
with military .223 & .308 brass due to the difference in case
volume from commerical brass (dunno about 9mm).

I buy most of my brass once fired and tumbled at OGCA shows.
There is a dealer at these shows whom I have been buying brass from for
~15 years now (Pat McDonald -- I believe he sometimes runs
ads in the SGN classifieds). I am very careful about where I obtain
rifle brass (no range pick-ups) and to a lesser extent pistol brass.
All that shiny new USA (Winchester) 9mm brass left there by non-reloaders
is tempting at the local indoor pay per hour range. Especially when
one is using crapwhenitwasnew S&W 9mm brass which has been
reloaded 5 or 6 times....  I advise that noone pick up *any* of my
crapwhenitwasnew S&W 9mm brass as I load it *light* and really don't care 
if I lose it at the range. Now, my Browning, Norma, WW, Remington,
Aguila, Federal, MM (Canadian military) 9mm brass I don't generally
even take to the indoor range for fear of losing it. The USA stuff
I take to the indor range (it is Winchester & I figure I'll just 
pick up more of the same if I lose it). Be sure to examine any brass
you pick up at the range very carefully before reloading it.

I wish I knew where I could get more once fired Browning & Norma 9mm brass
at a decent price....

Of course, the usual disclaimer regarding the potential 
inadvisability of following/emulating my blatherings, advice,
or potentially slovenly brass procurement practices, applies to this,
all past, and all future posts.      
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: SORROW%MAPLE.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu (MAPLE::SORROW)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need semiauto rifle recommendation
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:17 GMT


I would like a recommendation on a rifle that meets the following
requirements:

	1.  Semi-automatic centrefire, .308/.300WM or 7mm Rm Mag
	2.  Easy scope mounting
	3.  Synthetic stock
	4.  Heavy barrel, pref. stainless
	5.  Highly accurate ( at least MOA )

Something like an accurized HK-91 would be nice, but that is too
expensive.  A target style stock would be VERY nice, and I would like
to keep the price under a 1000.  I don't know how accurate a good
semiauto rifle can be, but if I must give up too much I may just go
with a REM 700 VS or what not.

Thanks,

Brian
From: deh@rocket.com (Dale E. Higgs)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 10 and 12 ga. Steel reloading
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:15 GMT
Organization: Rocket Research Company

I have been reloading lead for a year now, and would like to progress to steel.
Several questions come to mind.

1.  Federal put out a pamphlet some time ago on Steel shot which recommended
    against reloading steel due to the difficulty in getting consistent
    loads, stating that pressures can swing wildly.  Is this the case?
    Would weighing each drop help?

2.  What is a good, reliable source for steel reloading data?  Components?

3.  Is it possible to find 10 and 12 ga hulls for steel?  Where?  (As almost
    all hunting in this area is done on salt water, hulls in the field are
    usually highly corroded.)

4.  Any tips, pointers, comments?

Thanks.  Please e-mail me and I will collate and post all of value.

Dale.
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:35 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) /  1:55 pm  Sep  2, 1992 /
#What happens when you dust a bad guy and the prosecutor finds out about this
#b-a-a-a-d ammo you've been using?  Wouldn't you find yourself in the same
#potential fix as the guy who used special handloads?

Depends on where you live.  Some places you don't have to worry, some places
you're going to have problems if you use anything but what the cops use, some
places even that won't help you.  

Take a suggestion from Ayoob.  Research your local case law.  You will,
depending on where you live, find support for at least one of the statements 
I've so far seen on the net, and I have not see any opinion that is not true
somewhere in this country.  Don't trust me, or anybody else on the net.  
Find out for yourself what you local political and legal climate is and 
go with what you find.

Rick.
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re^2: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:02 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9209081613.AA01462@data.rain.com> ames!data.rain.com!john@cs.UMD.EDU (John Mantey) writes:
#
#has been fired straight up would do?  I would guess that the pattern
#would be so dispersed that you would probably be hit by only one/two
#pellets, but how much would those pellets hurt?  Hmmmm....

Not much. The pellets will be traveling at terminal velocity, somewhere
around 100 fps. For light birdshot, it's not painful. Heavy duck
loads sting a bit, and I wouldn't want to be under a load of buckshot.
Wear a cap and eye protection and you should be fine under all but the
heaviest shot.

Gary
From: glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:34 GMT
Organization: College of Business, University of Florida

In article <tmi.715759895@well.sf.ca.us> tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler) writes:
#       Personally, I can carry whatever I like in my primary and
#backup pistols, as can my partner in her's. Manufacturers send me
#ammunition for free, sometimes unsolicited. I now carry Black Talon in
#my .40-caliber primary and my 9 mm backup, as does my partner in her
#9mm primary.


So, is it possible to order just the bullets from Winchester, so that 
one could hand load these to respectable velocities?
From: slv4b@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: S Problems
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:32 GMT
Organization: Utah State University


     Recently, I had a scope (Bushnell Sportew 3x9) mounted on my SKS.  I'A
problem has arisen with the spent brass being thrown into the bottom front of
the scope whenever the gun is fired.  Also, the stocs 2 inches too short for 
for me.  I've had several suggestions regarding the purchase of a replacement
stock that is more my size, but nothing that really provided solid information.
     Therefore, does anyone have anadvice or information concerning a a
replacement SKS stock (preferably one piece, not folding stock) that seems to
bcloser to lar length?
 
Thanks,

Lanobinson
Utah Stativersity
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AMT Lightning
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:29 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <BuH6Jp.6B@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
#In article <1992Sep11.225732.19757@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
##dak@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (David Kardelis- I am the NRA) writes:
##
##
###	AMT Lightning 22 pistol. This is a SS copy of the RUGER MarkII. 
###	with 3 mags.			$230 + shipping
##
##
##I have one of these.  Not only is it as good as a Ruger, imo, it is
##great in that grooves for a scope come pre-cut.
##
#	Dave's Lightning is, alas, slightly more accurate than mine. One
#	of the reasons I bought my Lightning was that the first time out
#	with Dave's gun I punched a sub 1" group @25 yards. Without
#	a scope mine will do 3/4" @25 yards, his will do slightly less.
#
#	What kind of accuracy do you S&W41/Buck Mark Target/Ruger shooters
#	get with your pistols?

I have one of the first one's of these to roll out.  It has the 10 1/2"
barrel for 22lr sil. (little critters) and came with Micro brand sights.
I was bummed to see them drop the Micro sights.  From a creedmore pose
mine has made .5" groups at 50 yards reliably using Win T-22 ammo.

VERY HAPPY

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Civil immunity states (was Re: Hand-loads for defens)
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:41 GMT

In article <9208281951.AA03934@gtephx.com>, forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @
AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) says:
#...
#
#I'd also be interested in:
#    Are you required to try to run away before shooting?

Such a requirement would likely be ruled illegally discriminatory
under the recently-enacted ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act).

W. K. Gorman
NRA Life
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:47 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <9209020223.AA27054@paleolithic.Colorado.EDU> eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder) writes:

}I have heard this "buzz saw" effect mentioned several times, both here
}and in ads from companies like "Blammo" and the like.  Am I correct to 
}think that there is *virtually no* increase in soft tissue dammage which
}results from the rotation of a bullet around the axis of trajectory?  
}Given that the bullet can rotate no faster than rate of twist of the 
}rifling, say one turn in 14", this would mean a bullet would make less
}than one complete rotation when penetrating a human chest, for example. 

A lot of damage can be done in one rotation, especially when there are
five blades rotating.  I've seen one high-speed photo of a Black Talon
going through ballistic gelatin.  The paths of the blades are clearly
visible.  I sure wouldn't want that going on inside me.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405