HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nigelh@csr.UVic.CA (R Nigel Horspool)
Subject: Re: There's *got* to be a better way!
Keywords: FrameMath
Organization: University of Victoria
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:07:09 GMT

caughey@farad.UVic.CA (Dave  Caughey) writes:

>Two problems I've noted about the FrameMath package:

>1.  Quite often I want to show derivations or proofs in my papers.  This
>requires me to enter a lot of equations of the form

>	left_hand_side	= right_hand_side#1
>			= right_hand_side#2
>			= right_hand_side#3

>where all the equals signs are lined up.  A related scenario has a long
>expression spread across multiple lines, with operators lined up with the
>initial equal sign

>	left_hand_side	= component#1
>			+ component#2


> ...
>Does anyone know of an easier method of doing this? (with macros,
>perhaps?  parallel frames?)


A much easier way is to use tables.  Simply set up a three-column
table which has the Ruling Style set to None.
Then put your left-hand side equation in appropriate cells of the
first column, the equals and plus symbols in a narrow middle column
and your right-hand side expressions in the third column.
Each left-hand side and each right-hand side (or each component)
should be created separately with FrameMath.


Nigel Horspool
From: kgb@cs.umr.edu (Girish Bhat)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: *** HELP NEEDED!!! *******
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:08:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla
Originator: kgb@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu

I need to know how to convert frame maker documents on SUN workstations to
PS files. The workstation is presently down and I cannot open frame maker
files to do it directly from frame maker.  Is there a filter to convert the
files in frame maker format to PS files/WP files?
Thanks.

Girish
-- 
    Girish K. Bhat   	
G-3 ERL (Called "Engineering Research Lab", not sure why)
   University of MO
    Rolla, MO-65401				
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: jrs@netcom.com (John Switzer)
Subject: Re: Device tty?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 07:29:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Jul29.192840.29810@informix.com> cortesi@informix.com writes:
>In article <8eRKDRb0BwwuRKT64M@transarc.com> Bill_Chiles@transarc.com writes:
>> Does anyone know how to get FrameMaker to dump reasonable "text only" files?
>> The problem is that they literally dump text only in left justified
>> line-oriented packets.
>
>I have had reasonable luck producing ascii output using simply 
>Save As... and specifying text output.  Is this what you have tried?
>
>Paragraphing and (to the best of my recollection) centering and right
>justification  were preserved. I don't know what Frame does when the
>original para style had full justification on; our para styles are all
>ragged-right, and it comes out ok in ascii. 
>
>The major problem we encountered was that lines come out too long.
>A reasonable page width using 9pt proportional text can easily run
>over 80 characters, causing problems when the ascii is edited with vi.
>
>If you mean to do this frequently, you should do something like this.
>First, set up a style template for the purpose. It would have all
>your standard para tags by name, but revised to use a monospaced
>font (courier, bleagh), ragged-right, and margins adjusted to allow
>a max of 80 chars/line.
>
>Make a copy of a document with New; Use Formats to apply the
>text template; and Save As text only.  Should work.

I used to do this, but found an easier way to reformat the short 
lines was to save the file as a text file, with a paragraph marker
at the end of each line. I then use VI (or some other editor, you 
could do this in Frame before saving) to add two lines to the top
of the file:

	.na
	.nh

I then use NROFF on my workstation (e.g. nroff < filename > filename.new).
NROFF basically formats each line to about 60 characters, without 
doing any hyphenation or right-justification. Is faster than having 
to use a new format.
-- 
John Switzer               | "Gammera is really neat,
                           | Gammera's full of turtle meat, 
74076.1250@Compuserve.com  | We all love you, Gammera."
jrs@netcom.com             | ---MST 3000
From: berger@sfc.sony.com (Bob Berger)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: FrameMaker training materials?
Keywords: n
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:18:45 GMT
Organization: SONY Advanced Video Technology Center San Jose, CA USA

I've been volenteered to give an in-house training session on using
Framemaker.

Does anyone have any overheads or other material that I could use to help
in a beginner's introduction to using Framemaker?

Please email me direct. THANKS!

-- 
Bob Berger  -  SONY Advanced Video Technology Center
685 River Oaks Parkway  San Jose, CA 95134 408-944-4964 FAX:  408-954-1027  
INTERNET: berger@sfc.sony.com   UUCP: [uunet,mips]!sonyusa!sfcsun!berger
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: mahesh@widget.evb.com (B.G. Mahesh)
Subject: MS word -> Frame...how ?
Reply-To: mahesh@evb.com
Organization: SETT Inc.
Affiliate-Of: EVB Software Engineering, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:43:22 GMT

We have a MS word file on our Mac. We want to convert it
to Framemaker format (we have Frame on our Macs and Sun).
How todo this ?

thanks


-- 

Mahesh
mahesh@evb.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: allen@geac.com (Allen Septon)
Subject: 486/50
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:13:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Geac Computer Corporation


We rans somes tests comparing a 486/33 as compared to a 
486/50 (not clock doubled) and came up with a 30-35% performance
improvement running Frame for Windows.

8 meg of ram
Number9 video card
21 inch monitor running 1280 x 1024

Allen Septon     allen@geac.com     416-475-7733
Geac Computer Corporation           Markham, Ontario
From: robertw@informix.com (Robert Weinberg)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Re: MS word -> Frame...how ?
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:44:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Jul22.134322.2783@widget!uunet.uu.net> mahesh@widget.evb.com  
(B.G. Mahesh) writes:
> We have a MS word file on our Mac. We want to convert it
> to Framemaker format (we have Frame on our Macs and Sun).
> How todo this ?

If the WORD=>FM filter is installed along with FrameMaker (which it probably  
is, since it comes with Mac FrameMaker), all you do is start FrameMaker, open  
or newly create a file, and Import the WORD file. FrameMaker will put up the  
watch cursor while it converts the WORD file and imports it.
--
+==============================+===============================+
|       Rob Weinberg           | Workstation publications tech |
| Email : robertw@informix.com |       Graphic designer        |
| Voice : 415-926-6754         |    <imagine your ad here>     |
+==============================+===============================+
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: hamm@austoto.sps.mot.com (Steve Hamm)
Subject: Re: Troff vs FrameMaker Productivity
Reply-To: hamm@ssdt-bluestein.sps.mot.com (Steve Hamm)
Organization: Motorola SPS, Austin, TX
	<HAMM.92Jul22094612@toto.austoto.sps.mot.com>
	<1992Jul22.231152.4991@informix.com>
	<1992Jul23.155110.2648@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:39:56


---On Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:51:10 GMT, clarke@mahakala.corp.sgi.com (David Clarke) said:

David> It might be interesting to rerun the troff vs frame test that 
David> Steve Hamm refers with a Frame template.  Or, you could eliminate
David> the troff macros and force the troff side to work with raw formatting
David> instructions.  Either way, this would be a more accurate test of 
David> relative productivity than having one side rely on auto-formatting 
David> and forcing the other to format line-by-line. 

Actually, I think the debate should be divorced from troff, which
(unless used with an appropriate, extensive macro package, like AT+T
used) cannot be considered a markup language.

The debate should center on WYSIWYG vs. markup language for
documentation, which is what the AT+T source I quoted was talking
about.  Form versus content: When should the writer be concerned with
the format of the document versus getting words down on paper (or in
a file).

The AT+T study was one data point that said, for the purposes of
producing documentation, that a markup languate is more productive.
Frame templates, versus, for instance, LaTeX styles (which admittedly
are not pure markup), or an SGML based system (which is perhaps another
red flag), would be a more appropriate test.

All I know about the AT+T test is in the source I quoted.  I would
suspect, though, that whatever WYSIWYG tool they used had templates,
style sheets, or the equivalent -- most of these tools do.  It seems
that WYSIWYG gets in the way, though, in addition to missing the extra
content information captured by using markup.

--Steve
--
Steve Hamm ------  Motorola Inc. Semiconductor Systems Design Technology
                   3501 Ed Bluestein Blvd., MD-M2, Austin TX 78762
Ph:  512-928-6612  Internet:  hamm@ssdt-bluestein.sps.mot.com   
Fax: 512-928-7662  UUCP:      ...cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!austoto!hamm
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: shai@mcil.comm.mot.com (Shai Hanani)
Subject: Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Organization: Motorola Communications Israel Ltd., Tel Aviv
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:55:47 GMT

Keywords: 

Does anyone have a FrameMaker graphic file of a Rabbit?
If so, please let me know were it can be found.

Thanks,

Shai Hanani
Motorola Communication Ltd. Israel
shai@mcil.comm.mot.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: rick@tessi.com (Rick Lindsley)
Subject: Re: troff vs Frame
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:10:33 GMT

A lot of discussion has gone on about one example, and only a couple of
other people have given any personal experiences. Let me add one.

I've been (probably still am, sigh!) a troff guru. I've written my own
macros when me, ms, or mm didn't do quite what I want, and had to pore
over those macro packages without the benefits of comments. I can
pretty much make troff do what I want.

A few months ago I was introduced to Frame. I would not say I am a
Frame guru, but I think I've progressed well beyond casual user.

I would characterize troff as moderately difficult to learn (for
instance, writing a simple document with nothing but troff or macro
manuals to refer to), and difficult to master. I would characterize
Frame as easy to learn (same situation), but also difficult to master.
The difference I attribute to the fact that until recently there have
been few troff previewers that let you check your formatting (BASIC
formatting, like, did I successfully put a new paragraph there and is
that page break sensible? not complicated layout issues.) I've found it
very interruptive (and wasteful!) to have to stop from time to time to
get a printout to check my text. Worse was when a macro didn't quite do
what I wanted, and I had to research how to modify it so it would.
Frame allows you to quite easily make special settings on a particular
paragraph, whereas with troff you may have to break down a macro or
write a new one to get that to happen without strange side effects.

It is very true that the temptation is much greater with a WYSIWYG to
work on WYS instead of WYW (what you write). If you resist that
temptation, I've found that Frame is easier and more comfortable than
troff -- even for producing 60 page specifications or 25 page
tutorials.

I would vote for WYSIWYG (Frame, in this case) over troff in terms of
ease of use and productivity.

my $0.02,
Rick
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: corman@Ingres.COM (Anthony Corman)
Subject: Re: Ventura Publisher --> FrameMaker ?
Reply-To: corman@Ingres.COM (Anthony Corman)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:26:27 GMT

You're talkin' to the right guy: we ported over 60 manuals from VP on the
PC to FrameMaker 3.0 on Macs. Basically what we did was convert the Ventura
text files to ASCII files containing the FM MML equivalents. This preserved
paragraph tagging. In addition, our conversion program decoded some of
the anchored frame information and placed generic anchored frames
in the FM file, along with text indicating which graphics file needed
to be loaded.

To perform the conversion, I wrote a BASIC program that scanned the VP 
publication and created a text file containing a Prokey macro. The Prokey
macro invokey the Wordperfect program editor and executed a bunch
of find-and-replace commands; the result was an MML file that could
be imported into FM. This is a sketch - there was more to it, but
that's the idea. We used WP because (1) you can define sophisticated
macros and (2) the macros always run through, unlike PC WORD, which
is limited by the size of its change buffer.

Email me if you'd like details. Best of luck; it *can* be done!
From: graham@advent.co.uk (Graham Underwood)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Anchoring frames
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:43:13 GMT
Organization: Advent Imaging Ltd.,Henley,England

I am trying, with little success, to create an anchored frame with its
left edge aligned to the current paragraph indent.  Have a look at the
example in the Framemaker Reference Manual page 1-21 (X window version)
to see what I mean. 

I tried using frames in the margin and supplying a negative left offset,
but then you dont get text wrapped around the frame :-(

The only solution I can see is to centre the frame and then adjust the
graphics within it to the exact pixel - surely you are not expected to
do it like that.

Anyone out there (e.g.  the authors of the Frame documentation) got an
answer for me?

Graham



-- 
+---------------------------------------------------+
| Graham Underwood.	   |  graham@advent.co.uk   |
| Advent Imaging Ltd.	   |  advsys!graham         |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: bobmcc@tcs.com (Bob McCormick)
Subject: Changing Paper Sizes
Organization: Teknekron Communications Systems Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:15:56 GMT

Here's a question from a USA-based co-worker on temporary assignment
in Europe (my comments inserted in []):

I have a question for you.  It has to do with the size of international paper.  I
have all these existing frame documents I brought with me on tape.  They are the
wrong size to print on international paper, although everything fits, nothing
gets cut off, so its not too bad, and I don't think it would be correct to
reformat existing documents [the USA-based masters] to international size. 
However, I would like to reformat the templates we have to international sizes,
so if we write memos, or create new documents, they'll be international size.  Is
there any way to reformat an existing template file to change the size of the
master pages?  The only way I can find to specify the size of the master page is
when you create a new document using the NEW command.  It pops up the dialog that
says Use Template, and you have to select Custom Document, because all our
templates are U.S. sizes.  And our version of FrameMaker is from the U.S., so all
the templates supplied with FrameMaker are U.S. sizes.  Any hints???


=-=-=-=-=-
Bob McCormick, Systems Engineer           | bobmcc@tcs.com +1-510-649-3881
Teknekron Communications Systems, Inc.    | bobmcc@tcsi.tcs.com
2121 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA, 94704 USA | uunet!tcs!bobmcc
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: mahesh@widget.evb.com (B.G. Mahesh)
Subject: For Michele Vening's of sps.mot.com
Reply-To: mahesh@evb.com
Organization: SETT Inc.
Affiliate-Of: EVB Software Engineering, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:54:51 GMT


My mails to you are bouncing.....


-- 

Mahesh
mahesh@evb.com
From: kgb@cs.umr.edu (Girish Bhat)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: PS filter for Frame Maker documents
Date: 26 Jul 92 19:59:06 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla
Originator: kgb@mcs213j.cs.umr.edu

We had Frame maker on one of our SUN workstations and the workstation is 
presently unaccessible due to hardware problems. I have some documents 
saved in frame maker format and I want to convert them into PS files without
being able to open Frame maker. Does anyone know of a filter which converts
Frame maker files to PS files. 

Thanks in advance

Girish
-- 
    Girish K. Bhat   	
G-3 ERL (Called "Engineering Research Lab", not sure why)
   University of MO
    Rolla, MO-65401
From: rnt@druwa.ATT.COM (Bob Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Neophyte Frame User Having Trouble Importing EPS Graphics
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:43:22 GMT
Distribution: comp


I just started using Frame 3.0 for Windows.  Whenever I import an
encapsulated postscript graphic (whether EPSI format or EPS
format), Frame automatically brings the graphic in as 1" x 1".
The "Import Image" dialog box doesn't appear, robbing me of the
chance to tell it to fit the graphic in a selected rectangle.
Even if I were able to get at this dialog box, I still have a
basic problem.  Namely, how can I get Frame to retain the original
aspect ratio of the graphic without actually measuring the graphic
and plugging the numbers into the Properties dialog box?  If you
can think of a way to get around the 1" x 1" funhouse-mirror-effect
when Frame imports postscript, please let me know.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.  These graphics originate in
Corel Draw 2.01.  Perhaps there is a better, more efficient format
for use with Frame.  I choose EPS because I use a postscript printer.

Bob Thomas
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: estrickl@diana.cair.du.edu (EDWARD STRICKLAND)
Subject: Sorting bibliographies in FrameMaker
Organization: University of Denver, Denver, Colorado
Distribution: comp.text.frame
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 20:42:42 GMT



Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: davev@ims.com (Dave Verhoeven)
Subject: FrameMaker and spreadsheets -- recommendations wanted
Keywords: FrameMaker spreadsheets
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:20:03 GMT

I am interested in recommendations and comments on experiences with FrameMaker
and spreadsheets in the Sun UNIX X/Motif environment. 

Please send comments or pointers to references to:

                     Integrated Measurement Systems      fax: (503) 644-6969
Dave Verhoeven       Cadence Design Systems, Inc.      phone: (503) 626-5268
                     9525 SW Gemini Drive         voice mail: (408) 428-5967
                     Beaverton, Oregon 97005           email: davev@ims.com


Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: hall@stortek.com (Tom Hall)
Subject: vi keyboard operation for FrameMaker ?
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:29:43 GMT

   Is there a way to map the keyboard in FrameMaker so that it
operates somewhat like vi, at least for basic text-entry ? 

   Could this be done using some other X-tool like xmodmap ?

   It seems that the missing piece is the ability to define a
keyboard macro that *defines* another keyboard macro, so that
when ESC is typed, 'j' gets mapped to the down arrow, etc., and
when 'i' is typed, 'j' gets mapped back to 'j' etc.
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
From: ask@sei.cmu.edu (Alan Koch)
Subject: Re: Troff vs FrameMaker Productivity
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:03:53 GMT


In article <HAMM.92Jul22094612@toto.austoto.sps.mot.com>, hamm@austoto.sps.mot.com (Steve Hamm) writes:
|> 
|> ---On 21 Jul 92 16:37:32 GMT, russ@druhi.ATT.COM (RauhauserR) said:
|> 
|> Russ> Has anyone collected hard data on how much more "productive" a
|> Russ> writer is with FrameMaker as opposed to troff?
|> 
|> Russ> Even if you're lacking hard data, but do have experience in this
|> Russ> area, I wonder if you'd be willing to offer an estimated figure
|> Russ> for productivity increase?  Any input, using any basis of
|> Russ> reasoning, would be gratefully appreciated.
|> 
|> I love it.  Even posted from ATT.COM.  Heh heh.  Some time ago, there
|> was a posting (from someone else with an att.com address) in
|> comp.text, in response to the question "Why isn't there a WYSIWYG
|> troff?"  The answer is interesting, and applies to your question as
|> well.  There isn't a WYSIWYG troff because, as a part of Documenter's
|> Workbench, it would be a productivity loss.  Likewise, with FrameMaker,
|> I would assume the same results apply.  
|> 
|> The question, then, is, "How much *less* productive is FrameMaker than
|> troff?" (Or any other markup language, for that matter, for the purpose
|> of producing documentation.)

As usual, the technical-dweeb population assumes that the entire world thinks
and actls like they do.  (What a disturbing thought!)  There is a large class
of people for whom design-code-compile-test is the natural way to work.  No
WYSIWYG system will make those people MORE productive (though I argue that if
they can keep themselves from being caught up in the pretty-it-up-beyond-
reason trap, they can be AS productive.)

But there is a whole different class of people (arguably a LARGER class) for
whom WYSIWYG is always going to be more productive, because it fits the way
they think (... is intuative to them.)  Although these people can learn to use
mark-up systems if forced to, they will always be happier and more productive
in the REAL world.  --  REAL WORLD?  --  Yes, there is little outside of
computers where the design-code-compile-test model applies.  In the real
world, we work with the result and mold that to our needs.

So, to answer Russ's question,  "Tell me, Russ.  Is this generic "writer" a
techno-dweeb?  Or is this a real person?"

ask@sei.cmu.edu

Alan S. Koch
Software Engineering Institute
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA  15213
From: bae@hplsdll.col.hp.com (Bruce Erickson)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Re: Obtain summary of fonts/paragraph formats?
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:08:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Logic Systems Operation


Well, I've received a few mail messages of "Gee, I'd like that too!" and
"just use fmbatch to convert to MIF the awk/sed/perl it to get the report",
but no code.

If I become motivated enought to write the scripts, or if some kind soul 
sends me a summary script, I will post it...

                  - Bruce Erickson
                     Hewlett Packard
                     bae@col.hp.com
From: pyoung@caiman.axion.bt.co.uk (Pete Young)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Problems with fmbatch
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:18:25 GMT
Reply-To: pyoung@axion.bt.co.uk
Organization: British Telecom Labs
Organisation: BT Laboratories, Martlesham Heath, IPSWICH UK

I'm having a problem with using fmbatch. It's all the more odd because
it used to work OK a couple of weeks ago. It probably means that I'm
something stupid - hopefully someone will spot it.

The problem comes when I try and print a file. Sample dialog is
as follows:

fmbatch-> Open letter.doc1
Calling FrameMaker... done.
Waiting for FrameMaker results... done.

(so far so good, I've opened the file I want to print).

fmbatch-> Open letter.doc
Calling FrameMaker... done.
Waiting for FrameMaker results... done.

(that's OK too, I've opened the file with the desired print settings)

fmbatch-> Print letter.doc1 letter.doc
Calling FrameMaker... done.
Waiting for FrameMaker results...
X Toolkit Error: XtCreatePopupShell requires non-NULL parent

And that's the problem. Any ideas what's going on? By the way, the print
settings file has been set up to print the file to a postscript file
called letter.ps.

Please Email me with any suggestions and I'll summarise (if I ever figure
it out!)

Regards

Pete
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Pete Young         pyoung@axion.bt.co.uk        Phone +44 473 645054
             BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, IPSWICH IP5 7RE UK
  "Seen on Pavlov's door: Knock. Don't ring bell." - mathew sutherland
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame