From: 9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Summary:  The need for transliteration until native scripting is possible
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41A   
Keywords:  Ascii, Arabic script, transliteration,
Organization: University of Houston-Downtown
X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 19 hours, 43 minutes since the new moon
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 08:15:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.234327.18140@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
>9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil) writes:
> 
>[...]
> 
>>In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
>>>ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi) writes:
> 
>>>>Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>>>>: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to
>>>>: *replace* Arabic with Lebanese.  The point that was made was that you
>>>>: people are trying to reinvent the wheel!  As to your point about
>>>>: Arabic and ASCII, I think you ought to look at the smart Japanese.
> 
>>I think that you have a point here: would you be ready to help show that Arabic
>>can be used in its native form on computers as Japanese is, with a minimal 
>>investment in hardware and software?
> 
>I would be more than happy to contribute to this task within the
>knowledge constraints I have on the subject.  And as you probably
>know, such an enormous task would be next to impossible to implement
>without a serious grant from a rich source to put it seriously on
>course.  This would be a wonderful proposal and I am willing to be
>part of it.

  sallem hattem  *:)

  If you have a generous sponsor that will be ready to back the cause of 
Arabic scripts on the Net with his dollars, I have a bunch of debts
( Stafford loans, for the most ) I would not mind paying back  :)

>>>>: They were not "interested in ways to represent JAPANESE alphabet in
>>>>: ASCII".  Instead, they made those dummy machines understand their
>>>>: alphabet, which, of course, is the smarter way to do it!  Computers
>>>>: are good because they are *general-purpose*.  They are dummy machines
>>>>: that will do what you want them to do.  It should *not* be the other
>>>>: way around!
> 
>[...]
> 
>>>You actually believe people would be interested in reading writing
>>>Arabic using Latin characters, aren't you?  This is really beginning
>>>to sound like a good comedy.  Ayman, just because you and other
>>>people think it is a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
>>>characters, that does *not* mean everybody else is interested.  I
>>>hope this will not shock you now that I have seen *we* and *majority*
>>>being consistenly used in your post.
> 
>>The majority of us are interested in using Arabic on the Net using the technique
>>available to that same majority. When a better technique will be practical, 
>>that is available and affordable, we will most probably use it.
> 
>Fair enough.  I take it there is no technique available at the moment.
>In addition, I don't think anybody can be serious to consider the
>bogus "Alphaleb" a solution!  I grant you people would be free to use
>"Alphaleb" on scl just as I had friends back home who used to amuse
>themselves and others by speaking Lebanese-Arabic backwords!

  Until the right solution, that is Arabic in its native script on the Net,
sees the light, there is not one but many techniques available: I have 
included in appendix of this post a few examples of transliterations 
schemes from soc.culture.arabic. I trust those are representative of the 
many other solutions that you can see on soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.
pakistani, soc.religion.islam and other talk.politic.middle-east. 
  Actually, the common denominator of those schemes is that there are as 
many of them as there are posters :)

  AlephLeb in contrast has the unique merit of being used consistently by 
at least three of us.

>>>As to your problem of reading and writing Arabic on a terminal, it 
>>>sounds to me more like a software problem rather than a hardware as
>>>you are trying to imply.  I think the solution would probably require 
>>>some researched mapping techniques between codes & fonts.
> 
>>I think that you are right. This opinion is based on the existence of Russian 
>>and Hebrew software for editing mailing and "newsing". 
> 
>>>Now, you do need good terminals, ones which would support the graphical
>>>display of different fonts (eg Arabic).  A Mac, Sun, Spark, Dec, IBM... 
>>>workstation would definitely have these capabilities.  What kind
>>>of a lousy terminal are you using anyway?  And, what makes you think
>>>that the majority of people have the same terminal as you!?!?
> 
>>The majority of us have mainly access to terminal/terminal emulators that are 
>>VT-100 compatible. This excludes the use of any character set other than ASCII.
> 
>A Grad student who could not afford a small MAC (eg classic) or a
>88/86/286 PC with a cga (minimal graphics capabilities) is I think
>hard to find.  I mean come on, any Grad student with an internet
>account and an assistantship can afford to buy a PC for $400-1000.

  As an undergrad, I do not have the privilege of an assistantship: if I 
ever get accepted for grad school at U of I will you help me get one?  :)

  On a purely technical side, a Mac is fine but a PC needs EGA or better to
change the character sets easily, or else you have to do nasty things in
graphics, but would you only need monochrome.
  At any rate, hardware is just half the solution. You still need an 
emulator that would work as a soft-fonts capable terminal, and at the other 
end of the line, on the host where you have your account, an editor/mailer/
news reader that would accept the non-Latin manipulation of characters-
right-to-left, form of letter that varies with its place in the word....-

>>>One more thing, I did not see any comment from you on why you think the 
>>>Japanese did not modify their alphabet so that they can write Japanese
>>>using ASCII codes!  Could it be because they want to preserve their
>>>alphabet/language and not let a little obstacle such as the ASCII codes
>>>prevent them from doing that?  Or is it because they lacked the minds to 
>>>invent an AlpahaJap?  What do you think Ayman?
> 
>>There is an AlephJap. It is commonly used by foreigners and students of the
>>Japanese language who do not know the Japanese alphabets and Chinese pictograms.
>>It is much simpler than AlephLeb, as the original phonetics are simpler than the
>>Arabic ones. I doubt that is of much use among the native speakers -maybe when
>>a Japanese editor is not available?-.
> 
>If I understand you correctly, the AlphaJap thing is not created by
>the Japanese themselves but by people who use Latin Characters in
>their native language in order to help themselves figure out the
>phonetics/pronounciation of the Japanese language.  If so, then this
>is a totally different story and I have no problem with that at all.
>It is different because it is used by others (than the Japanese) in
>order to cope with the Japanese language and not by the Japanese in
>order to cope with the stupid ASCII codes.  I guess the bottom line is
>that for me, the preservation of the beautiful Arabic language is a
>lot more important than being able to read/write it on a dumb (no pun
>intended :-) vt100 terminal emulator.  That barring the real issue
>behind the creation of a new divisive so-called "Alphaleb" that serves
>the sole malicious purpose of isolating ourselves as Lebanese from our
>surroundings.  I just thought I (and few others) had to point out that
>this ploy is moot and will not go beyond the few entertaining minutes
>we have so far spent talking about it.

nonono

  This "AlephJap" was used by native speakers before the Japanese capable 
software was distributed, as is our case now. It is still in use by 
students of the language who do not know better -check a "Japanese in 10 
days" at your preferate bookstore- and by those who do not have access to 
the wright soft/hardware at the time of their communication, at the risk
of being scorned by the rest of group.
  BTW, I was at an Indian gathering yesterday, and it seems there is an 
AlephGudjerati, an AlephTamil and an AlephBengali as most of the guests mix,
as we do, English and their native language on the Net from an ASCII 
terminal.

>>>>and software, which the majority of us are not interested in doing?
>>>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> 
>>>I am not sure what is the psychological factor that makes you Ayman
>>>think that when you express an opinion, it would be that of a majority!
> 
>>The majority of us are either poor students, many in poor universities/colleges,
>>those that are working might not be ready to invest to much in hardware.
>>This leaves the software side if we can find/make it freeware/shareware.
> 
>It is sad to say that I am still a member of the same poor club you
>belong to Alex.  However, despite the meager stipend I make from my
>research assistantship, I was able to invest in a Mac and so did few
>of the Grad students who work around me.  It is feasible guys, if I
>did it, anyone else can.  Besides, I do confess that the U of I is a
>wonderful place which is rich in equipments but I can hardly imagine
>any college in the States that does not have a lab or two with good
>workstations free for students to use!  So I don't thing the
>affordibility/availability issue is relevant in this case at all.

  min timmak la-bwab as-sama  which seems to lie some where around Urbana-
Champaign. Refer to my previous statement about grad school in U of I :)

  As long as the hardware seems to pose no problem to you, how about the
software?

>>When do we start?    :)
> 
>>>>--
>>>>Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
>>> 
>>>Khaled
> 
>>alex khalil  alex@dt.uh.edu
>-- 
>+-----------Khaled Soufi-------------+--------------------------+

alex khalil  alex@dt.uh.edu
U. of Houston-Downtown

--------------------------------------------------------------------
--- long series of quotations, if you already subscribe to ---------
--- soc.culture.arabic, skip them: you know'em all           ---------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Khaled J Shammout <kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: IT'S ARABIC POETRY QUIZ TIME !!!!!!

sa'ahmilu ruhi 'ala rahati   wa'ulqi biha fi mahawi alrada
fa'imma hayatun tusirru alsadiqa   wa 'imma mamatun yughithu al'ida
                                                    ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^
                                                     {to     {enemies}
                                                     drive
                                                     crazy}
----------------------
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Wisdom by I. AlWardiyy

   I will use weird character combinations to clarify pronunciation of the 
Arabic words. I hope it will be obvious shortly.
   Short vowels: a o i (e) and u (as in up), 
   Long vowels: aa oo ee uu (as a in bart)
   ^ as in  "^aib", ^t as in "^tuur", ^d as in "^duud", ^h as in "^hoot"
   ^k as in "^kaw-^k", ^g as in "^gobuur", _th as in "_tholl"
   - = mute for removing confusion.
   ^XX and _XX are used in place of ^X^X and _X_X respectively.

  Any suggestions are subject to approval.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I^-tazil _thikru l'a-^gaani wa l^gazal
   wu qoli lfusla wu jaanib man hazal
wu da^i _ththikru li'ayyaami ssebaa
   fali'ayyaami ssebaa najmon 'afal
wu troki l^gaadata laa ta-^hfal biha
   tomsi fee ^izzin rufee^in wu tojal
wu ftakir fee montahaa ^hosni lla_thee
   'anta tahwaahoo tajid 'amran jalal
wu hjori l^kumruta in konta fatan
   kayfa yas^aa fee jonoonin man ^uqal
wu ttaqi llaaha fatuqwu lluuhi maa
   jaawarat qulba mri'in illaa wusul
laysa man yuq^tu^o ^torqan bu-^tal
   innamaa man yattaqi llaaha lbu-^tal
Kotiba lmawto ^ala l^kulqi fakam
   falla min jayshin wa 'afnaa min dowal
...

-----------------------------------------
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Ghazal by Y. i. Mu^awiyah

   I will use weird character combinations to clarify pronunciation of the 
Arabic words. I hope it will be obvious shortly.
   Short vowels: a o i (e) and u (as in up), 
   Long vowels: aa oo ee uu (as a in bart)
   ^ as in  "^aib", ^t as in "^tuur", ^d as in "^duud", ^h as in "^hoot"
   ^k as in "^kaw-^k", ^g as in "^gobuur", _th as in "_tholl"
   - = mute for removing confusion.
   ^XX and _XX are used in place of ^X^X and _X_X respectively.

  Any suggestions are subject to approval.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naalat ^alaa  yadiha  maa  lam  tanalho  yadee
   naqshan  ^alaa  mi^sumin  awhat  bihee  jaladee
Ka'annahoo  ^torqo  namlin   fee   anaamilihaa
   aw raw-^duton russu^at-ha  ssu-^hbu  bilbaradee
^kaafat ^alaa  yadihaa  min  nabli  moqlatihaa
   fa'albasat  zandahaa   dir^an   min   azzaradee
Insiyyaton law ra'at-ha shshamso  ma  ^tula^at
   min  ba^di  ro'yatihaa  yawman  ^alaa  a-^hadee
Sa'altoha lwusla quulat  laa  to-^garra  binaa
   man  raama  minnaa  wisuulan  maata  bilkamadee
Fakam qateelin lanaa  bil-^hubbi  maata  jawan
   min  al^guraami  falam yobdi'  wa  lam  yo^idee
Faqolto asta-^gfiro  rra-^hmaana  min  zalalin
   inna lmu-^hibba  qaleelo  ssubri  wa  l^kaladee
Qad ^kallafatnee ^taree-^han wahya  qaa'ilaton
   ta'ammaloo  kayfa  fi^lo  _ththubyi  bil'asadee
Quulat li-^tayfi ^kayaalin zaaranee wa mu-^duu
   billaahi sefho  wa  la  tunqos  wa  la  tozidee
Faquula ^kallaftohoo law maata  min  _thuma'in
   wa qolto qif  ^an  woroodi lmaa'i  lam  yaridee
Quulat sudaqta  lwafaa  fil^hubbi  sheematohoo
   yaa barda _thaaka lla_thee quulat ^alaa kabidee
Wa  starja^at  sa'alat  ^annee  faqeela   laha
   maa feehi  min  ramaqin  daqqat  yadan  biyadee
WUSTUM^TURUT LO'LO'AN MIN  NARJISIN  WA  SAQUT
   WARDAN WA ^A-^DDAT  ^ALA  L^ONNAABI  BILBARADEE
Hom ya-^hsodooni ^alaa  mawtee  fawaa  'asafee
   ^hattaa ^ala lmawti laa 'a-^kloo min al^hasadee
-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
From: im@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Ibrahim M. M. Babelli)
Subject: Re: IT'S ARABIC POETRY QUIZ TIME !!!!!!

I believe the poet was a Palestinian man who practiced what he advocated
and sacrificed his life for his cause. His name is (-----) Mahmoud
but I forgot his first name.

The next verse of the poem is:

Wa nafsu-shaheed laha ghayatani    Bolough-u-lmanaya wa nayl-u-lmuna

I think that he was killed (Ustushida) in the late thirties.

im  
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: afadel@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ayman Fadel)
Subject: Nasiiha:  Let's Stop the Jokes About Each Other

[...]

I remind myself and everyone of what was narrated from
Ar-rasuul [salla allahu alayhi wa sallam]:

man satara ~awrat muslimin satara allahu ~awratahu yawm al-qiyaama

Whoever conceals the defect of a muslim, Allah will conceal
his defects on the Day of Resurrection.

salam
ayman
------------------------------------------ 
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: IT'S ARABIC POETRY QUIZ TIME !!!!!!

In article <9209290337.AA22538@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Khaled J Shammout <kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>  Who said:
>
>sa'ahmilu ruhi 'ala rahati   wa'ulqi biha fi mahawi alrada
>fa'imma hayatun tusirru alsadiqa   wa 'imma mamatun yughithu al'ida
>                                                    ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^
>                                                     {to     {enemies}
>                                                     drive
>                                                     crazy}
>
> For extra points:
>When/where/ and how did he die?
>
The poet is Abdurraheem Mahmud.  He was a Palestinian fighter who was
martyred (insha Allah) at the Battle of the Tree (Maraket as-shajjarah) 
in the 1930's against the Jews.

The rest of the poem reads:

wa nafsu al-Kareem laha ghayatan     wurudu al-manayyah wa nailu al-muna'
aj-jubnan wa indi tahunu al-hayyatu  wa dhulan wa 'inni la izzu al-ibba'
la amruka 'inni arra' masra'i	     wa lakin ahhuthu 'ilayhi al-khuta
Sa'ahmi hiyadhi bihhadi al-husam     liy'alama qawmi bi'anni al-fata

[.........]

Sandra.
------------------------------------------- 
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: IT'S ARABIC POETRY QUIZ TIME ! QUIZ #2

Quiz #2 for the Arabic Poetry Enthusiasts:


Who wrote the following:

Banat su'adu faqalbi al-yauma matbulu
Mutayyamun ithraha lam yufda makbulu
Wa ma su'adu ghadatal-bayni ithrahalu
'Ila al-ghannu ghadhidu at-tarfi makhulu

What was the occasion for this poem and the story behind it?

Sandra.
------------------------------------------------------------- 
From: angel@herald.usask.ca (Joseph F. Angel)
Subject: Re: IT'S ARABIC POETRY QUIZ TIME !!!!!!

In article <angel-290992140400@med007.usask.ca>, angel@herald.usask.ca
(Joseph F. Angel) wrote:
> 
> In article <9209290337.AA22538@top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, Khaled J
> Shammout <kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> > 
> >   Who said:
> > 
> > sa'ahmilu ruhi 'ala rahati   wa'ulqi biha fi mahawi alrada
> > fa'imma hayatun tusirru alsadiqa   wa 'imma mamatun yughithu al'ida
> >                                                     ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^
> >                                                      {to     {enemies}
> >                                                      drive
> >                                                      crazy}
> > 
> >  For extra points:
> > When/where/ and how did he die?
> > 
> > 
> 
> How about Abu al-Qassem al-Shabby, (Tunisian, 1930s?)
> 

I am wrong.  I confused this with Shabby's:

Idha al-sha`bu yauman araada al-Hayat,
   Fa laa budda an yastajyba al-qadar...

After posting the response, it occurred to me that once upon a time I knew
this poem by heart.... Memories fade 35 years after leaving high school,
you know ;-)

Joe
------------------------------------------------------
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Arabic Names

[.........]

   "Laa ta-^hqiranna su-^geeran fee mo-^kuusumatin
            inna lba^oo-^duta todmee moqlata l'asadee"


**Abul-Balabil   Wherever they are and then some!
------------------------------------------------ 
From: fade@quads.uchicago.edu (mohammad h fadel)
Subject: Re: Quote of the Day

[....] 
"a .hasiba  al-nnAsu 'an yutrakU 'an yaqUlU AmannA wa-hum lA 
yuftanUna?" (Sura al-`Ankabut, verse 2) trans. "Did the people think that 
they would be left to say "We have believed," and that they would not be
tried?"
[....] 
					Was-salam,
					Mohammad  
---------------------------------------------------
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:04:46 GMT

[....]
**
   - wlee ^ala 'aamtee, luk ru"usni ya gada^.
   - wala ykoon lik fikir i*ktee, du"i ya mazzeekah.
   - la' da*keelkon, baddi sammi^kon halmawwaal bil'awwal: Gamoosah
       raa*hit ti'aabil gamoosah ...
**
------------------------------------------------- 
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Poetry by i. Al*Hasan Attihaamiyy

Key:
'    as in  'anta       not as in  you're
^    as in  ^alaa       not as in  on
*h   as in  *hayzaboon  not as in  hag
*d   as in  *dureer     not as in  blind
*g   as in  *gabiyy     not as in  goof
*k   as in  *kala^a     not as in  take away
*s   as in  *suwt       not as in  sound
*t   as in  qi*tt       not as in  cat
q    as in  tawuqquf    not as in  quit
th   as in  tha*keen        as in  thick
_th  as in  _thaak          as in  that
*th  as in  *gulee*th   not as in  thick
--
*XX,_XX stands for *X*X, _X_X
" stands for ''
-------------------------------------------


*Hokmo lmaniyyati fi lbariyyati jaaree
  ma haa_thihi ddonya bidaari quruuree
baynaa yora l'insaano feehaa mo*kbiraa
  *hattaa yoraa *kuburan min al'a*kbaaree
boniyat ^alaa kadarin wu 'anta toreedohaa
  *sufwan min al'akdaari wa l'aq_thaaree
wu mokallifu l'ayyaami *didda *tibaa^iha
  mota*tullibon fi lmaa'i jo_thwata naaree
wa i_thaa rajawta lmosta*heela fa'innamaa
  tabni rrajaa'a ^alaa shafeerin haaree
fal^aysho nawmon wa lmaniyyato yuq*thaton
  wa lmar'o baynahoma *kayaalon saaree
fuq*doo ma'aaribakom ^ijaalan 'innamaa
  'u^muurokom safaron min al'asfaaree
wu taruuku*doo *kayla shshabaabi wu *haa_thiroo
  'an tostaradda fa'innahonna ^awaaree
fadduhro ya*kda^o bilmonaa wu yo*gi*sso 'in
  hannaa wu yahdimo maa banaa bibawaaree
laysa zzamaano wa 'in *huru*sta mosaaliman
  *koloqo zzamaani ^adaawato l'u*hruuree
...
-----------------------------------------------
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Arabic Names

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>Why don't you educate us on the meaning of your name, and furthermore, 

   'Ana smee mo*hee*ton bilfu*daa'ili wal *hija
       wa laakinnahoo   fil*gaabireena     quleeloo
   Min aNnoori walBillawri walYammi walLu*thuu
       kamaa  'annahoo  min  *gorrihinna   saleeloo
   I_thaa konta fee ma qolto maa zilta jaahilan
       'ala fa^laman  bismee  wa  _thaaka  ????????
                   (c) 1986 <NMG>
[...]

   'Ana lla_thee nu*thura l'a^maa ilaa adabee faquul:
         'Alaa layta shi^ree hal abeetanna laylatan
            ashokko  na*heelan  aw  afokko   *hijaabaa
         'A^oddo nojooma llayli wa lbadro kaamilon
            wa yatta*ki_tho lbadro ssa*haaba *hijaabaa
         Yosallee qo^oodee na^imo l*kaddi ka^ibon
            sharuuban wa u*snaafa  lmawaali*hi  jaabaa
                   (c) 1992 <NMG>  


[...]
-------------------------------------- 
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Arabic Names

[...] 
** I told you it is vibologically possible, but "maa la fukuuhu,
bnoab."
** Really were their walkmans playing Boney M's "run away" when
they "u*tluqoo seequunahom lirree*h?" "wi ta*kodni rree*h
wi tgibni rree*h ..."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon