HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ngrjn@milton.u.washington.edu (V Nagarajan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Can science come back to Islam [Part 2]
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:24:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Apr9.222447.8312
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Apr6.064759.23626@zip.eecs.umich.edu> jamal@z.eecs.umich.edu (Jamal Mubarak) writes:
>
>Actually, I am not sure.  The greatest muslim mind, Ibn-i Sina was from 
>Central Asia, currently part of the CIS.  I think al-Khwarizmi was also
>from Cental Asia.  Does anyone know the origin of Ibn-i Khaldun?  Was he
>North African?  The point I am trying to make is that this was not just 
>an Arab phenomenon but a Muslim one.
>
	You are right, Khwarizmi was a persian, Avicenna was a spaniard
	and, of course, the incomparable al-Biruni was from Khwarizm (!)
	in Central Asia under the Umaiyyad Caliphate. Arabic was the
	language of choice in scientific matters. I suppose "Islamic
	science' is a valid usage.
>>
>>	Why, thanks for that succinct explanation! Now, if only you'd
>>	deign to elaborate on it...
>
>Okay, this gets long now. The word "iqra" was the first word ever
>revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).  It means "read" or "recite".
>Apart from the shock of the first revelation, the Prophet was totally
>taken aback since he was illiterate.  Anyway, that is history.  The
		  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	As an aside, this point has been disputed by many *muslims*.

>point is that the first instruction was "Read, in the name of your
>Lord who created.  Created you from a thing that hangs on to another."
>[My trans.]  Next take the Hadith, "seek knowledge from the cradle
>to the grave."  There is another Hadith "seek knowledge even if you
>have to go to China," but this, I think is weak (zaeef).
>
	We have the benefit of 1200-odd years of hindsight to read new
	meanings into scriptural verses. For the early muslims these
	may not have been the direct inspiration.

	For example, according to Goldstein ["Ibn al-Muthanna's Commentary
	on the Astronomical Tables of al-Khwarizmi"], 'the first Abbasid
	khalif (ca. AD 750) had heard of the sciences of the Indians and
	wished to have some of their books translated into Arabic, for
	"profane", ie. nonreligious, sciences were unknown to Arabs at
	that time. He was not sure this was religiously permissible until
	the angel of dreams assured him of it.'

	Moreover, since the Qur'an has always been the source of inspiration
	to the muslim world, the reasons for the decline of the 'islamic
	science' and obversely, its ascendence should be traced to something
	else.

	Here's a conjecture: Islam unified the scattered arabic tribes,
	gave them a sense of purpose and imbued them with a zeal that saw
	them establish an empire that spread all the way from spain to 
	Central Asia in the span of 200 years and brought together some
	of the greatest creative and intellectual giants ever under one
	rule. Under this condition, arts and sciences prospered and the
	islamic world could act as the guardian of knowledge in the medieval
	era. The decline in 'islamic science' started with the decline of
	this empire.

							- Nagarajan
From: balajiv@hadar.fai.com (Robi Bisesarji)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: The Mongols and the Indian sub-continent
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:26:05 GMT


Reading through the history of the mongols, one often comes across the name
'Khan' being used more as a title than as a surname/tribal name. Chingiz Khan
(the Grand Khan) was the title that Temuchen took when he was elected leader
of the mongol tribes in a 'kuraltai'. I wonder if the word Khan had any special
meaning in the mongolian language of those days. This word seems to be
inherently mongolian in its origin because at the time of the mongol expansion,
people of no other country/cultures used this name. Moreover, during the time
of Chingiz Khan, the mongols were not adherents of any religion that we know
today; rather they followed tribal religions that are probably defunct now.
The branch of mongols who came to south-central asia and western asia
converted to Islam much later. In the Indian sub-continent, however, the name
Khan is used by many muslims. Is it because of the mongolian influence or
do the Khans of the Indian sub-continent have a totally independent origin?
Also, was Babar truly a mongol? In his portraits one notices that he has few
mongol features and more of Turkish features. There is a vast distinction
between his features and that of Chingiz, Kublai Khan, Ogodai, Chagatai, etc.,
of the original mongol royalty. Maybe he was a Turkish native from the region
that today includes Uzbekistan, Turkistan, etc. Any opinions/concrete evidence?

-b.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Ahmadis, you still ignore this.
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 19:33:23 GMT

Shalom lakhem,

   You are still avoiding the arguments which can shed light on the core
of this debate:

   * What are the quotes and authenticity degrees of Hadiths that prophesy
        about Mahdi and Messiah?

   * What do you think of Hadiths that say without the least ambiguity that
        there would be no prophets after Muhammad?

   [My point is to show that the latter Hadiths are stronger and that the
former ones violate what Mirza Sahib did. Please, let's get down to
business and quit reposting your ancient articles.]

--

   I am sorry for keeping you holding back your breath for the recent couple
of days since we had a major file server damaged. Thank God, we are now
back.
   It looks like winter forgot his keys in Ottawa, so he was back this
weekend to get them. I wish we could skate along the canal, but, alas,
he just was back for a second leaving behind 20 cm of fresh snow.
   How is it going up in Winipeg?

**Nabeel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mughal@juliet.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL)
Subject: Re: PINKY FLOYD - Once again! Your serve!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.40    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:19:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.225002.24675@njitgw.njit.edu>, aaj5096@hertz.njit.edu (Ali A. Jafry) writes...

>:-)
> 
>Ali 
>-- 
>I must go down to the seas again, 
>to the lonely sea and the sky, 
>And all I ask is a tall ship and a,
>Star to steer her by.

	Ali Sahib, you forgot to mention the above in quotes and would 
	you know who poem is it from ? ;)

___________________________________________________________________________
Asim M Mughal				
"Things are not what they used to be,missing one inside of me,
 definitely this can't be real,can't stand the way I feel,
 emptiness is filling me, to the point of agony..."
						- Metallica
[Standard Disclaimer]


Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: hashim@caen.engin.umich.edu (khurshid n hashim)
Subject: Re: SCARY THOUGHT
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 11:38:18 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

I remember reading a play by Albert Camus (I think) about

a man and two women locked in a room without any means of

escape.  They end up making each other utterly miserable.

The play was supposed to be the writer's vision of hell.
From: fmbutt@mrbt.sw.stratus.com (Farooq Butt)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: The Qadiani/non-Qadiani war.  Ceasefire ?  Please.
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:25:48 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering



Folks: 

I restrained myself as much as I could ;-) and I know this is 
obvious but it seems like the net.warriors are just not 
getting the point...

1. If you are a Qadiani net.warrior, please stop posting
"clarifications" about your beliefs.  It is my opinion that the people
you are trying to reach have nothing but utter contempt for your views
and use your long tracts as further grist for their
flame-article-generator programs.  Besides, I really think that you
folks have covered as much as is humanly possible.  Believe me.  Could
you possibly change the subject ?  The people who respect your views
already do and beating them over the head serves no purpose.


2. If you are a non-Qadiani net.warrior , please bear in mind your are
talking to folks whose deeply held convictions differ significantly
from your own.  Please accept that, hard as it is to swallow (after
all, everyone _knows_ you are always right, eh?  :-).  These chaps are
not going to budge ONE IOTA from calling themselves muslims etc. etc.
Your arguments are generating 100% heat and 0% light at this point.
You have said everything possible on the subject.  They are Qadianis
today, their parents were Qadianis and given the abuse you hurl at
them, it is a safe bet that they will never even consider changing
their faith to one closer to yours.  Agree to disagree and leave it at
that.  Or are you getting serious jollies from flaming them ? 






Of course, I may be dead wrong and all your net.stalkers out there
could be enjoying the heck out of all this khoon-kharaba, in which
case please accept my apologies.



NOT!!!! :-) 


fmb

-- 
Standard High-Tech Disclaimer: NOTHING  in the above article has the slightest 
relationship to reality. If any reality correspondences are found, please 
notify me IMMEDIATELY. Any threats, abuse or stupidity of any kind is purely 
UNintentional. These are MY Opinions NOT my employer's.
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Bad arguments ...: Inadequacy of "Pure Reason":Erratum
Date: 7 Apr 1992 23:51:47 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

Here are corrections of my article #19420 on scp:

In article <ku40k8INNdej@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> 
 hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:

> ....You see, we who are the believers of Islam are not in the
>business of "proving without reasonable doubt". Even Quran
>is very explicit about all this and says clearly:
>The people who ask for such "proofs" are arrogant (istukbara),
>they are not looking for truth. They are trying to circumvent
>the truth through such "useless" demands. ......

1: Please substitute "furnishing irrefutable evidence" for 
   "proving without reasonable doubt" in the above. 
   
	(somehow the "legal" jargon
  	 of "beyond reasonable doubt" got 
	juxtaposed with the technical
   	term "irrefutable evidence").
2: The sense in (1) above is this: "Irrefutable evidence" of
   the type demanded by philosophers will defeat the whole purpose
   of this "life" as an "examination" for which the "hereafter"
   will provide the "results". Who succeeded and who failed.
   Is there a logic of conducting an exam by making available
   all the answers, before hand?

3: Read the last statement of the article in section "clarifications"
	as follows:
     
	Thirdly, Philosophers here refer to
	the group subscribing to the views of  "Ibne-Sina"
	Ibne-Rushd and co.
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 04:38:49 EDT
From: Mahfooz Ahmed Jafry <32JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Reply to Mr. Mubarak

Salam Alaikum :  Qadiyani Oh

       By the way what is this Hazart Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani.  How you dar
e to say Hazrat Mirza.... what do you mean, We say Hazrat to Mohammed (S) and Q
uran testifies about it (warafana laka zikrak and others) but for Mirza Ghulam
Ahmed is there any evidence available from Quran ....No never and impossible.

       Recently a gentleman declared himself prophet in Egypt and claimed that
Gibrael comes to him with 'wahi' somebody called him in Cairo on phone and
said hello, hello, he replied, yes, yes, the gentleman from Saudi said I am Izr
ael and coming to take your soul out.  And very soon somebody from Egypt finish
ed his thrown of Nubuwwa.  Salam.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: ss511583@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Sohban Shahid)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: 'Ishq bichara na mullah hain na zahid na hakim
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:55:43 GMT
Reply-To: ss511583@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Sohban Shahid)
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

Jafry a good article but only one complain and it is why you have written
the names of few persons including the filth like Zia ul Haq  to be in Jannah.
I will not say anything against Maulana but this is the point where SHIRK
starts. You give some extra respect to your Maulana and when shitte claim
superiority of their Imams you guys just simply lost your patience. Mind If
I will quote Moen and Umer Sharif's joke that : have I sad anything when 
your horse was flying? Please think what Zia did to Pakistan and especially
to Karachi. What wrong PPP fans are doing if they are calling ZAB as
ZAB (RA).  I simply don't understand what  criterion  Pakistanis are using
to call these people Hazarat and so on. Jafry, maan ga'ai tum sheyrooN mai
guru ho.

----------------------------------------------------
The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.
		-- Oscar Wilde

SOHBAN SHAHID             e-mail ss511583@longs.lance.ColoState.Edu
Civil Engg. Dept.         (303) 491 5844/8204 (work)
Colorado State University (303) 224 0397  (home)
Ft. Collins, CO-80523
From: anajam@athena.mit.edu (ADIL NAJAM)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: .....Jugni.....Jamalo......Music.....
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:33:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: athena.1992Apr8.173332.17546
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Whiel we managed to uncover the "Jamalo" mystery, does anyone on the
net know the "Jugni" story.....I do remember a rough variant but am 
not sure if it is the right one........

By the way, Jugni is what made Alam Lohar and his great showmanship
famous, recently Alamgir also sang the Jugni.......needless to say
his renderation was no where near as entralling as what Alam Lohar's 
used to be...............

ADIL [.....mairayaa Jugni kaindee aye
           tou naam Ali da laindi aye....	
	   Ooo, mairayaa Jugni..............] NAJAM
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Ahmadis vs Non-Ahmadis
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:04:08 GMT

Sabaa Butt<BUTTS@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

>Though this marathon-no-holds-barred debating session of Ahmadis vs Non-Ahmadis
>has yet to come to an *unprecedented* outcome, its really not that difficult to
>resolve this issue. All it needs is a little bit of tolerance and the capacity
>to get rid of ethnocentrism, of the belief that only our own ideas and convicti
>ons are true and correct. I know there is always the temptation to impose one's
>own ideas on others, to spread one's own *truth*. Its a common human weekness
>to persecute people who are *different*. But one has to remind oneself that all
>individuals or groups have a fundamental right to live their lives according to
>their own choice. Suppression of someone's ideas and beliefs leads to general
>human impoverishment. Freedom and tolerance are necessary for general improve-
>ment of culture and civilization. Thus we should regard and respect the beliefs
>ideas and convictions of other people.

>Truth, Goodness and Beauty are not the monopoly of any one individual or group.

>Sabaa.

   The thing is different than what you think. I do not mind people worshipping
shoes or dutch cheese, but it is not their right to claim being Muslims, that
is all.
   The Prophet said there would be no prophets after him and those guys are
getting prophets and claiming that they are also prophets of Islam. We do
not want to force someone to leave hell for our sake, but we do not like
people claiming that they are Muslims while they are not. It is like
fighting forgery.

**Nabeel
From: ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: You should be ashamed
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:03:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

>From: ahsan@kraft.ecn.purdue.edu (Ahsan Ale-Rasool)
>Subject: The FALSE prophet from Qadiyaan

>On the contrary the Ghulam Qadiani did not do anything like Jesus was supposed
>to do and instead died in a PILE OF SHIT.  

  What kind of garbage are you writing?
  Nobody EVER told you to respect others religious figures?
 
Allah's curse on those who hear a rumor and spread it as a fact.


>On top of that, Mr Qadiani even abrogated JIHAAD. Who is he to overwrite the
>commandments of ALLAH (SWT) when even the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) could 
>not do that? Answer this question.  

Since I was quoted in this letter , here is my response.

Hazar Mirza GHulam Ahmad abrogated RELIGIOUS FIGHT. 
You , your father and his father 
were waiting for a Missiah whose ONLY purpose to come on earth was to
kill INFIDELS(Including Ahmadis,of course) or convert them to Islam. Right??? 
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad shattered your dreams. 
He said if You want to spreas Islam, use PEN, write excellent books and 
send them to world. The rest Allah will do.
For a  sample of Jihads in 20th century
read any book of 20th century Muslim Jihad and see for yourself.

Stop degrading and hurting our feelings. Your God will 
punish you, I am warning you.
From: ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Thanks God
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:05:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: prism.1992Apr6.210507.8897
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

>From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
>Subject: Want me to reply to A. Hussain's "beliefs"?
>Message-ID: <nabeel.702582631@regulus.sce.carleton.ca>

>   I feel that Arhsad Hussain's beliefs are not worth replying to.

 Zaalik Al-Kitaab o Hudal-lil- Muttaqeen
(This Book(Quran) is guide for God Fearing people)

>
>   However, if there is any rational person who wants me to reply to him
>I will.

 May Allah Bless You   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: az1@ukc.ac.uk (A.Zafar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: STOP PRESS: Najeeb out! Kabul falls to Mujahideen
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:23:50 GMT
Reply-To: az1@ukc.ac.uk (A.Zafar)
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

In article <kurdq5INNfpl@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>In article <kurcriINNfi1@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>>In article <5749@falcon.ukc.ac.uk> az1@ukc.ac.uk (A.Zafar) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr15.180831.16293@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mmasood@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mohammed A Masood) writes:
>:::
>:::	WHY UN "PEACE" EFFORTS IN AFGHANISTAN SHOULD BE DENOUNCED
>:::
>::
>::	In this entire posting you have assumed that the Mujahideens are on
>::the verge of victory. They are far from it. 
>
>:It appears Mr. Aman has not been following the news. 
>:
>
>Mr. Aman you were definitely not upto date.
>
>STOP PRESS:
>
>News just coming in. KABUL HAS FALLEN. Najeeb is out.
>
>Keep your fingers crossed for more news.

	I was wrong all right. Though in this case I am very glad I was.
Ceefax has reported that he was caught trying to flee (according to some
reports).  The US is worried that Afghanistan may be heading for anarchy.

			Aman[black tongue]Zafar

--
			 - Aman Zafar 			_   /|
			 - University of Kent 		\'o.O'
			 - England. 			=(___)=	
							   U
From: ss511583@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Sohban Shahid)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: **Female Pakstudent and burqa
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:28:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: yuma.1992Apr08.202813.61994
Reply-To: ss511583@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Sohban Shahid)
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

Mr  Jafry,

You have mentioned my name in one of the postings and I agree that I 
I have written against Maulana and I wish to write more but at the
first place I didn't get your reply to my first posting.  Its definitly not in
my mail and if you have posted any thing on the net then sorry dude I
was not reading news in the recent past because of my academic 
commitments.  Will you please e-mail it to me, i'll be glad to read it.
By the way answer few of the questions posed by anil in his posting
5457.  I will start my pursuit from there on. Take care, Allah Hafiz.

SOHBAN SHAHID                 e-mail ss511583@longs.lance.ColoState.Edu
Civil Engineering Department        (303) 491 7710/5844/8204 (work)
Colorado State University           (303) 224 0397  (home)
Ft. Collins, CO-80523
From: minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: A sad news
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:17:12 GMT
Distribution: usa,world
Organization: Univ. of Cincinnati

I found this in SCP

>>From: towfiq@FTP.COM (Mark Towfiq)
>>Subject: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
>>Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:25:14 GMT
> Lines: 55
> 
> 
>>Washington, D.C.--Representatives of the American Baha'i community
>>today announced that a prominent Iranian Baha'i, Bahman Samandari, was
>>secretly executed in Tehran on March 18 and was buried two days later
>>in an unmarked grave in a Tehran cemetery.  Authorities refuse to
>>disclose the location of the gravesite.
> 
> If Bahman Samandari had not committed any CAPITAL offense, 
> this  is  a shameful and condemnable act against humanity.
> Human life is more important than IDEOLOGY, philosophy of life.
> It must be respected at any cost.
> 
> Alas! who will convince the MULLAH?
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Useless topic?(was Baacha, Baachi, Kaka,Kaki) Clarification
Date: 6 Apr 1992 15:08:06 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <ku10ifINN1fr@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu> hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder) writes:
>In article <69683@ut-emx.uucp|
> zaheer@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Imrana Zaheer) writes:
>|
>|>|  Baacha, bachi, pappu, kaki, poond, poondi etc.etc. 

>|What is this junk on the net?  

>I fully agree with the uselessness of the above topic, or such topics.
>(The topic may, however, be of great interest to linguists, who it
>appears to me, devote their lives to the cause of tracing back
>words to their obscure origins. Such attempts, are however justified
>on the basis that such historical trace allows us to gain insight of
>historical influences, which inturn help  us 
>understand better our ownselves).
>

I would clarify my position on my remark above:
 
   "I fully agree with the uselessness of the above topic,"


I apologize for making a statement about a discussion of which
I had incomplete knowledge. I didn't follow the "Baacha, Baachi,
Kaka,Kaki..." train of discussion in great detail. 

I read only some of the begining postings and formed
the opinion on the basis of those early articles.

 I read the detailed "article posted by Mr. Adil Najam"
giving a review of the discussion taking place under the title and
realized that after the initial postings, the discussion had, in fact,
meandered, in the area that I myself mentioned while qualifying the
statement for which I am now clarifying i.e.
 
       "....
        Such attempts, are however justified on the basis that 
	such historical trace allows us to gain insight of
        historical influences, which inturn help  us 
	understand better our ownselves"
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: A suggestion for all Muslims
Date: 16 Apr 1992 12:07:56 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Apr16.165454.10224@topaz.ucq.edu.au> khant@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:
>
>I request all the muslims please leave the arguments with Qadianis
>

I strongly agree with the above position. I think there is no
need for us to worry about Qadianis. We have better things to
do. There religion will simply remain confined to the 
descendents of the original converts or some few new
converts here or there. Let them become a non-issue like
other such break away sects.