From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Date: 18 Dec 1992 10:37:10 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec17.172939@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <livdnrINNhrh@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan
>Hyder) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec16.150317.2825@seas.gwu.edu> ahmad@seas.gwu.edu (Aftab
>Ahmad) writes:

:: :	To me it seems that the Muslims did live harmoniously with "the
:: :masters" after the 1857 war. May be just a different point of view.   
    ^^^^^^^^
:: Would you consider the following as "living harmoniously"
:: 	1: Khilafat movement?
:: 	2: Non cooperation movment?
:: 	3: The massacre of Jallianwallah Bagh?
:
:
:
:
:How do these events indicate that muslims and hindus were incapable of living
:harmoniously? (If that is what you are implying)

You ignored the contex to which I am replying. The statement above says that
Muslims were living harmoniously with the "masters". I am saying that
no they did not. And then I give the list of incident to prove my point.
:
:Jallianwallah Bagh massacre was perpetrated by the British. What connection
:does
:it have with Hindu-Muslim relations ?
:
:Non-cooperation movement != harmonious living : beats me :)

It should beat you, shouldn't it!
Do you think of noncoperation == harmony ???

:: 	4: Imprisonments of Ali Brothers

:: 	5: Imprisonments of Hasrat Mohaani (remember his
:: 			perpetual "chakki peesna")

:
:They must have been imprisoned by the British, right?

Of course, that was what I was saying.
:
:: 	6: Leaving of Jinnah for England after his disillusionment
:
:
:Jinnah seemed to get very easily "disillusioned". He probably never thought
:that he and his friends may also have been *part of the problem*.

Precisely. The only fault of Jinnah was that he should also have
gotten disillusioned with the would be Pakistanis like us!
That he reposed confidence in Pakistanis like us, was his only
major mistake!!!!!!!!
:
:No one has detailed out what the DIFFERENCES really were.

Have you ever read the text of Iqbal's Allahbad's address wherein
he outlined "the" differences!
May be a review of Shikwah and Jawwaab-e-shikwah would be enough.

Would any one post the 14 points of Jinnah (I think the year was 1928)

:
:IMO the biggest "difference" was the belief held by a majority of the
:Aligarh U. and the "ulema" gang that what they really wanted was an Islamic
:state. They wanted a dominion where muslims would be in a majority to enable the
:rule of the Sharia. This went against concept of "Common Purpose" between 
:the Muslims,Hindus,Sikhs,Christians etc. which was held by leaders like
:Gandhi, Nehru and others. 

You are hundred percent correct above.

: 
:
:And I think the Indian version of Secularism has worked great notwithstanding
:the upheavals of the last couple of weeks. 
:
Yes, not withstanding situation in Punjab
not withstanding the goings on in Kashmir
not withstanding the regularity of Hindu Muslim riots that
	have never stopped. Only continuously increasing in
	intensity.
not withstanding Tamil Nadu
......


:IMO trying to justify Partition by pointing to the Ayodhya incident would be
:wrong because the underlying cause for the events can be traced back to
:Partition.
:

However, if we trace the event back to the riots of 1920s they again
start making sense. Furthermore, if we trace them to the
actual reasons of 1860s that led Sir Syed  to open a "Muslim"
College, as opposed to a ~Neutral" college!!
:
:You should state clearly what you think the differences are/were. 
:
:Its not clear if you are implying that the cause of these so-called differences
:were the Hindus and hence are to blame for the rise of disharmony.

Keeping in mind that you said that no one outlined the differences
explicitly, I would simply refer you to Iqbal's poem in Baang-e-dara
that starts with:
	Khaas hai tarkeeb may Qaum-e-rasool-e-Haashmi
	The followers of the Hashmite Prophet (i.e. Muslims) are
	very special in their composition
	.....