From: yohan@caravan.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Faith
Date: 3 Oct 1992 18:13:46 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: caravan.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <BvErFv.6F2@vuse.vanderbilt.edu>, thaddeus@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Thaddeus R. Crews) writes:
>In article <BvEMI5.n34@inews.Intel.COM> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <1acbmbINNqlu@goldwing.ksu.ksu.edu> 
>>yohan@goldwing.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton) writes:
>	[stuff deleted]
>>>Christians base their life on
>>>a few feelings they have that are generally a result of upbringing or from the
>>>tnedency to attribute everything they can't understand to god.
>>
>>Hmm, well I'm not a Christian so I can't really comment on that, perhaps it
>>is true?
>
>Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan... one should not go around talking in such
>generalizations.  I am a Christian but it is not because of my upbringing
>(I never went to Church until I was 15, and until then I had never heard
>the word "Jesus" used in any form other than cursing), nor is my faith
>(you said "life", but I think this is what you mean :-)) based on a lack
>of understanding about the world around me, or any other non-understood
>"thing."  I don't understand how people would want to have sex with goats,
>but that is NOT why I am a Christian.  :-)
>
>Faith is not a bad thing; in fact it is necessary.  Farmers plant seeds
>in the faith they will grow (even tomorrows sunrise is uncertain, but I
>have faith it will happen, and so I live my life as if it will rise).

No, the farmer has observed that under the proper conditions, these seeds will
result in a crop.  You have seen the sunrise countless times.  Both of you have
evidence upon which to base those beliefs.  Now, say the first farmer found these
funny round things that he'd never seen before (seeds), planted them, AND believed
they would result in a crop, he would have faith.

>[yeah, yeah, I know the sun does not actually "rise", so save the bandwidth
>and don't write about the Earth's rotation etc...  that is not my point]

I'm offended that you'd think I would philabuster with such a pointless comment :)

>My point is we all live by some amount of faith.  The key in being a

I completely agree.  A certain set of axioms are mandatory.  The quantity of
axioms determines, in a lerge part, the validity and usefulness of a system of
beliefs.

>wise person, IMHO, is to have a faith that is based on the best data
>available rather than some blind faith.  And I believe Christianty to

You're on the money so far.

>be based on solid stuff (reliablity of scripture, my personal life, my
>friends and their lives before and after Christ, answers to prayer, and
>a solid and consistant understanding of the world around me).  Does this

Ok, here we go:

1)  How is the bible reliable?
2)  Why does a relative improvement in your life or your friends' lives validate
Christianity?  Does that mean it couldn't be better without it?  The same effects
can be seen in countless other cultures with a countless number of different
religions.  Religion is the opiate of the people.  
3)  These "answers to your prayers" can't be coincidence?  I've seen alot of
correct fortune cookies in my time; should I eat more chinese?  Furthermore, how
many of your prayers haven't been answered?  If you pray enough, random chance
is bound to make some of them come true, even in the most exacting of ways.
4)  How does an understanding of the world around you validate christianity? 


>PROVE Christiantiy to me? No.  But it gives me reason enough for my faith
>to be solid and not blind.  Christianity can never be proved (or disproved)
>apart from the direct intervention from God (or Ala).  So any Christian is
>just that by Faith.  That is, I guess, why it says "without faith it is
>impossible to please God."

It is clear that you have some basis, but a lot of people have had a similar
amount of fact to support their beliefs and actions and it turned into disaster. 

>
>And yes, Jonathan, there are Christians who were simply brought up that
>way and have never really thought through why they claim Christianty for
>their own, but they do not make up all the Christians as your statement
>implies.

Of course there are always exceptions.

>
>p.s. -- This is my first posting to alt.atheism, so go easy on the flames.
>The rhetoric is not cared for, but sincere statements are appreciated.
>
>-- 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-- Thad Crews                         (email thaddeus@vuse.vanderbilt.edu)
>              "Crime would not pay if the government ran it!" 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jon NEwton
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism