From: apctrc!zjtp04@uunet.UU.NET (John T. Penn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:21 GMT
Organization: Amoco Production Company, Tulsa Research


In article <1992Dec15.215515.2579@michael.apple.com>, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# In article <viking.724380552@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
# #ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# #
# ##This is exactly what I would do now.  Engine off.  Hands on the wheel
# ##at 12 o'clock.  Smile to the officer and ask what he wants you to do,
# ##then AFTER HE TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO, mention 'I have a CCW and a {type
# ##gun in whatever carry position}, does that change what you want me to do?'
# #
# #	It's just an opinion, but it strikes me as being a more hazardous
# #situation for the officer if he has to approach your car.  Even when I'm
# #being pulled over for a simple 60 in a 55 (it was Labor Day weekend), I
# #always get out of the car and walk back towards the cruiser.  
# 
# I did this in San Francisco and was immediately ordered back into my
# car by a very mad officer barking orders over his P.A. system...
# 
# They WANT you in your car.  They can approach you from a quartering
# angle from behind (where you can't see well.)  They have your car to
# use for cover.  They don't have to worry about your martial arts skills
# if you are firmly buckled into your seat.  They don't have to worry about
# you getting nailed by traffic and them getting sued. etc...  
# 
# #First, I
# #don't want an officer looking into my car, 
# 
# Which he DOES want to do.  So you've started off by giving him a 
# problem, then followed up by stoping him from doing what he wants.
# Not the way to win friends...
# 
# #and second he has ample time
# #to observe me and make a good judgement on my intentions, demeanor, and
# #sobriety.  
# 
# Which he can do by 'sneaking' up on YOUR passenger side... but with
# better protection.
# 
# #I walk back and, if it is cold, I head to the passenger side
# #and give a gentle knock on the window.  If invited, I sit inside where
# #it is warm and we have a nice chat over the weather, my offense, the
# #last guy he busted, what the radar gun says, etc...
# 
# I've done this once, but AFTER the officer walked up to my car.
# #From the officers perspective, he doesn't know what is in your
# coat.  He knows that HIS martial arts skills are hindered by being
# belted into his seat.  You are in danger of being hit by traffic if
# you walk to the driver side.  etc.  Think about the tactical problem
# for him as you approach.  Think about the tactical problem for a 
# bad guy as he approaches the passenger side of their car....
# 
# #	I suspect that the officer is more afraid of approaching my
# #vehicle not knowing what I've got on the seat than he is of seeing
# #an empty-handed citizen walking normally to his car.  
# 
# Not everyone will always remember to keep the hands in the open.
# If you try this, DON'T put the hands in the pockets!
# 
# The biggest factor is likely to be how the officer was trained.
# The CHP has changed to a passenger side approach from a driver
# side for saftey issues.  They get a better look, and are out of 
# the way of traffic.  The basic rule is don't fight their training.
# Try to fit some standard model of a 'typical' good citizen.
# 
# #This has the
# #side benefit of allowing me to hear any radio traffic that might be
# #about me should he call in my plates, I can view the radar gun myself
# #should I decide to fight the ticket in court, and I get a chance to
# #prove I'm not some long-haired redneck, which is an impression some
# #may get of me upon first glance.
# 
# All good for you.  But what about the officer?  It could go either way,
# depending on local custom and the particular officer, but what I've 
# experienced is that the 'harder' areas want you stuck in your car
# seat, engine off, belt on, hands visible.  Only in the 'softer' areas
# (often the 'sticks' where I grew up) were they comfortable with folks
# wandering up to them and getting into their car ...
# 
# #	Since I don't carry concealed, I just walk with arms at my
# #sides like normal.  Were I carrying, this brings about an entirely
# #different situation.  Which is better, to make him worry as he
# #approaches my car, or to make him worry as I walk back hands behind
# #my head?  I think it depends a great deal on where you are at.  Here
# #in Iowa they don't even call in my plates most of the time.  In
# #California, this might be enough to cuff me and stuff me in the back
# #of the car until a nationwide wants and warrants check is done.
# 
# If you were carrying, and walked up to him hands behind the head, you
# would, IMHO, have about a 90%+ chance of being spread eagled on the
# ground as he called for backup, searched your car, did a nationwide
# check, etc. ...  Just my oppinion, though...  You have put yourself
# in the profile  of a 'bad guy' rather than a 'good guy'...
# 
# #	I also think a bit of conversation is in order.  I believe I
# #mentioned that I would state why I was keeping my hands behind my
# #head, but in a non-threatening manner.  How would this go over on the
# #professional and ex-police we have here on the net?  Comments?
# 
# They are the most qualified to answer.  How about it guys, what
# 'Makes your day'? ;

As a Deputy Sheriff in Oklahoma, I would advise that you just hang loose
until I tell you what I require of you. If you like you may advise me of
a CCW, but don't be surprised of the outcome. Depending on what your off-
ense was will determine the understanding of the officer that stops you.

John P.