HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: massoud@chemteca.sdsu.edu (Massoud Ajami)
Subject: Re: ISLAM ON ABORTION
Organization: San Diego State University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:54:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.145411.1323@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:

>onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq) writes:
>: Since I am not an erudite Islamic scholar, I was wondering if someone
>: had any facts, quotes, or knowledge about Islam'c position towards
>: abortion.  I have heard from many people that according to Muhammad(PBUH), 
>: abortion was allowed by the third month of pregnancy(latest), since the
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: soul of child was not formed yet.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I am not aware of the complete Islamic position on this issue; but about the
>soul forming after the 3rd month -- I think that this is not the case. In the
>Quran somewhere it says that Allah breaths into the ovum a second creation
>(which is intrpreted as the soul) at the moment of conception. So the soul is
>there from the beginning.

>The question is the the stage of development of the soul -- is life absolute
>from the beginning? or can we talk about development of life and the soul
>itself both in terms of its physical and spiritual nature? I do not know the
>answers to these questions.

>: 
>: Thanx in advance!
>: E-mail me directly or post it for others' interest as well.
>: 
>: Omar
>: omar.farooq@att.com

>Nadeem Malik
No Mr. Nadeem, somewhere in Qur'an say that second creration happens when
some of the blob of cells turned into bones, and human shape appears. Not
any blob is qualified to receive human soul. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: hasnie@ed.ecn.purdue.edu (Rizwan Hasnie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: newsgroup for field hockey ?
Date: 26 Jul 92 21:39:53 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.pakistan
Distribution: na
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Jul26.202923.5036@CS.ORST.EDU>, alis@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Salman A. Ali) writes:
> 
> 	Question :
> 		  I thought there was a newsgroup for field hockey
> 		  by the name of rec.sport.hockey.field
> 
> 		  Can anyone confirm whether this really exists or not,
> 		  if so, then are updates being sent on it about the
> 		  olympic results.
     
            
    YES the newsgroup rec.sport.hockey.field does exist. 
    The Olympics results have started appearing on the net from today.

> 
> 		  by the way, does anyone know the result b/w pak vs malaysia
> 
> 		  thank u.
> 
> 		  Salman Ali

    The Pak-Malaysian Match result hasn't appeared on the net yet.
    I'll post the result on SCP if I find out. The other results are;
          Australia beat Argentina 7-0
          Spain beat New Zealand   3-0
          Germany beat India       3-0
          Netherlands beat Unified Team 3-0.

 Rizwan.
From: memon@acsu.buffalo.edu (Naveed Siraj Memon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re MS-PhD
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:13:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: UB

From: khan@davidsys.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: First Pakistani MD-PhD!
  
>Too much 'scholarship' is not good. Should pay
>more attention to developing 'spirituality'
>and thus, arriving at Reality and not the Image.
>People who read too many books make twenty
>questions of one question, and cut up Truth
>so that puny minds can 'analyze' it,
>in compartmentalized form. 


In the words of Shah

mandhe peeyanday mooN saaJan sahee sunJatoo

URDU: madhe pee kar pehchana mainaiN saaJan ko pehchaan leya
ENGLISH:
It was only when I was intoxicated[with Love] that I correctly recognised my
true Love.  

So spirituality comes with devotion. Scholarship and development
of spirituality are mutally exclusive. God had meant to create Humans
with puny minds, whether they are getting a tan in the California or banging
their short-wave radio against the wall to get the beeb in Durham, NC :) Asking
20 questions of one is understanding Truth from every exhaustable angle to know
that we are dealing with Truth, and not suffering from anxiety induced by
middle ages crisis preempted by our lonliness. Compartmentalized forms of
Reality leads to a bigger Reality or it reinforces the original Reality that
the Human had set out to understand their own puny little existance.




Naveed
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: ys3359@thor.albany.edu (Yazmasterj)
Subject: Re: Pakistani marriage arguments and discussions...
Keywords: killing wife, divorce, backward tribal laws
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 23:26:11 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.161557.7905@panix.com> ruthless@panix.com (Ruth Ditucci) writes:
>It seems to me that arguing about what is and isn't right in a marriage
>between a man and woman who live in a country which allows men to
>murder their wives when they're done with them is a rather-
>
>	moot point.
>
>Allow Pakistan to work on the simpler things such as their water
>system and their thousand diseases which are running rampant.  They
>are far from ready to work on things- social.  
>
>.

I have read Ms. Ditucci's earlier post on Pakistani males and did not
followup because I immediately read some very good, calm responses to
her blatant bigotry.  This one has pushed me into responding however.

All I see from Ms. Ditucci's posts are generalizations and a patronizing
attitude.  She seems to have clumped all Pakistani persons into one
great uncivilized bunch who all have the same (primitive) thoughts.  This
leads me to believe that she does not read the newsgroup she posts to
in such an inflammatory manner.  If she was to actually read the news,
she would see a group of educated people discussing a wide variety of
topics and definitely not being of the same thoughts and opinions ( I
say this from great experience at disagreement in this newsgroup :-).

What Ms. Ditucci fails to understand is that people are people.  There
are good and bad in all races, ethnic and religious groups.  Her 
previous boss seems (provided the original data is valid) to have been
a perfect example of what a Pakistani male should NOT be.  Ms. Ditucci
seems to be a perfect example of what an American female should NOT be.

Lastly, until Ms. Ditucci is prepared to present me with a crime-free,
disease-free, perfectly equal society anywhere on this earth, I suggest
she utilize her time in a more productive manner -- perhaps trying
to separate fact from bigoted fiction concerning Pakistanis.

Yasmin


**************************************************************************
*                                   *                                    *
*  Yasmin Sohrawardy                *  "Only Nixon can go to China"      *
*                                   *                                    *
*  Internet:  ys3359@csc.albany.edu *            - Ancient Vulcan        *
*                                   *              Proverb               *
**************************************************************************
From: rcbi110@muvms3.bitnet (R. ALAN MONROE)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Learning Urdu
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:00:08 GMT
Organization: Marshall University


Salam Alaikum.

I am very interested in learning to speak and write Urdu.  I have been teaching
myself the language by listening to music (Benjamin Sisters, Vital Signs) and
writing what I hear.  What I need is a learning aid, such as a tape/book 
package.  Where could I find or order something like this?  None of the book
stores in my area offered hope.

Chris Brannon

rcbi110@muvms3.mu.wvnet.edu

So much style without substance, so much stuff without style.  It's hard to
recognize the real thing, it comes along once in a while.  Like a rare and
precious metal beneath a ton of rock, it takes some time and trouble to 
seperate from the stock.  -- Grand Designs --
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: national language
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:21:01 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

ahasan@cae.wisc.edu (Ali Hasan) writes:

>	Faarsee was the language of the Mughal courts, Urdu was perpetuated 
>	and supported by Firangis to try to take muslims away from their
>	ruling past.

Are you recommending Faarsee as the national language of Pakistan to take
muslims back to their ruling past? Incidentally, how many Pakistanis have
ancestors that were part of this ruling past? I mean, a high officer in the
army, a governor of a province, etc.

Sumitro
From: cavus@CAE.WISC.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: IJTIHAD. PART 5.1.
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:54:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: sun-19.9207222354.AA00418

Esselamu Aleykum.

TREATISE  ON  IJTIHAD   PART  5.1

From The Twenty Seventh Word 

     This treatise was once written in Arabic. Now, due to a request
of my two friends, it will be rewritten  in Turkish  to give a
lesson to the one who overstepped his bounds.

In the Name Of Allah the Compassionate the  Merciful

"If theyhad only referred it to the Messenger or to those charged with
authority." (Al Qur'an 4:83)

     Know O Dear Friend! The door of ijtihad, which is one of the
religious matters, is open. But at this time, there are six
barriers to enter there.

     Fifth Barrier. There are three points which show that the
present ijtihads are earthly, and away from the purpose of the
Sharia. The Sharia (Islamic Jurisprudence and Science)  is from
above (revelation from Allah SWT).  The ijtihads which are
revealing the hidden judgements of the Sharia must reflect the
purpose of the Sharia. 

First point: Every thing and judgement comes into existance as a
result of a primary cause ('illa, see note) along with its
benefits (maslaha). But maslaha is not the same as 'illa;
rather, its role is only for determining the preference. 
Contrary to this fact, the views at this time are aimed at
replacing the primary cause with wisdom and benefit, and then,
making judgements (huqm) on their basis.  Of course, such
ijtihad is earthly, and hence does not  reflect the principles
of Sharia.

will continue in$aallah

C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C* 
These translations are from the Risale-i Nur Collection of Bediuzzaman Siad
Nursi (RA) which consists of a total of 134 books in Turkish and few in Arabic.
Tranlators are a group of  students at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and
Case Western Reserve  University-Cleveland.  All correspondence should be
directed to the e-mail address appering in this posting.  We are posting these
translations part by part but if anyone is interested we can send the whole
topic to personal e-mail addresses.  These topics have also appeared in the
weekly letter "Droplet  -  From The Vast Ocean Of The Miraculous Qur'an"
published and distributed in the Islamic Centers of Madison-WI and Cleveland-OH
after every Friday-Prayer.  Thank you.  The Talabat-un Noor.
C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    C*    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq)
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:34:35 GMT

-----------------------------------
Article 26045 (33 more) in soc.culture.pakistan:
From: B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:42:07 GMT
Oh Really !.  May be you visited in your dreams?

Who are you trying to fool, my dear friend? Mutual Visa restrictions
between Pakistan, and India donot allow people to visit any place
unless they have a relative living there, and the purpose of visit
is to visit a well known religious place? The movements all time
must be reported to local Police, and must be before hand approved and
verified by the respective local police. Tourist VISA to random
place will require intervention from the Prime Minister and even that
may be denied :-)

How did you visit a small village then? Without VISA or in Dream?.
Cheers

bkumar

-----------------------------------
For those curious enough to find out how "stringent" visa 
restrictions are between India and Pakistan, go to any Indian Consulate
or Embassy in Wash., D.C.  Take 4 passport size photos, your passport
and greencard(where applicable), $2.00 and you should get a tourist
visa the same day.

Any comments, questions, concerns, call the Indian Consulate in New York
212-879-7800

Cheers,
Omar
From: memon@acsu.buffalo.edu (Naveed Siraj Memon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re muhajirs in Pakistan
Date: 21 Jul 92 05:07:57 GMT
Organization: UB

From: myh@cs.brown.edu (Muhammad Yar Hiraj)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Muhajirs in Sindh


>Even though literacy rate is quite low (28% quoted in World Development Report '91, but
>disputed by the Wall Street Journal in July 91 in a report on Pak to be about 14% instead)
>I still expect Urdu to be the most understood language in the country.  Because of the
>high percentage of Punjabis in Pakistan, this might not be the case.  I believe that         
>the collection of data to find out the exact percentage of Pakistanis who do understand urdu,
>has never been a high priority issue for any of our governments. 

Just a few thoughts.

While it may be considered un-social to speak a regional-language in 
mixed gathering of people, people from the Punjab do occasionally 
switch on to Punjabi. For regional people, it is sometimes hard to speak
in Urdu with people, with whom they would otherwise have the conversation in
a regional language. When I came to the US, this is probably the first
thing I noticed about Pakistani gatherings. Due to the high number of 
punjabis, the conversation was carried out in Punjabi. I had the advantage
of understanding most of the punjabi words so it was not a problem but Urdu
speaking friends seemed to be left out of the fun, and sometimes they did
express their feelings and the mehfil would get cold for a while. These
are punjabis from Lahore, Faisalabad that I am talking about, as I mentioned
in a previous article, second generation punjabis from Karachi,
either don't know or would not prefer 
to speak in their native language probably because they have reserved Urdu
for social interaction. The transition from Punjabi to Urdu is not difficult
for Punjabis. On the contrary to switch from Sindhi to Urdu is, probably
because of structural differences and vocabulary. I do believe that outside
the Urban social setup, you would still find different groups who are not
able to speak Urdu.




Naveed
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq)
Subject: A trip in Pakistan.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:12:06 GMT

-----------------------------------------
Article 26196 (8 more) in soc.culture.pakistan:
From: cyrus@athena.mit.edu (Die Die Yankee Dog!)
Subject: A trip in Pakistan.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:21:28 GMT

Hello soc.culture.pakistan. My name is Cyrus Shaoul, and I am a senior
in Brain and Cognitive Science at MIT. I have always dreamed of
traveling the Silk Road, and this summer my dreams are coming to
fruition.

This Sunday, my brother Josef ('87 MIT EECS) and I will fly to Islamabad
where we will meet Saeed Jaffar. After getting our chinese visas, we
will travel to Gilgit. There we unpack our bikes, and after a few days
of warmup, we will leave Saeed to return to Karachi as we start our
Mountain Bike north on the Karakoram Highway. I hope that this form of
travel will be better than taking jeeps or cars. We hope to stay in
villages and meet the people of the Hunza. We will work our way up to
the Khunjerab pass, and from there we bike down to the city of Kashgar.
We then turn around and bike back to Gilgit. We plan on spending 5 weeks
in Pakistan, 2 weeks of which will actually be in China.

The reason I am posting is to ask if anybody has been to the Hunza, and
if so, if they could tell me anything about the region. 

Thank you in advance,

----------------------------------------------
Cyrus H. Shaoul           cyrus@athena.mit.edu
3 Ames St. Cambridge MA 02139     617-225-6449
-----------------------------------------------------------

The roads in that area, except for Sharah-e-Rasham(Silk route) are not very
good, and taking bicycles in certain areas as you'll find out is not very wise.
Although this is summer and the weather is cooperative, certain high roads
surrounding the Hunza valley still succumb to avalanches.  Overall though you
should not have a problem.  Also, do not talk too freely to women walking about
since they might be married and you don't want to get their husbands p_____ off!  

If you have more time, you may want tour the Silk Road even longer: There are
now weekly flights being offered from Islamabad to Tashkent(capital of
Uzbekistan) by PIA (Pakistan Airlines).  From Tashkent, there are many routes
that can put you on the Silk Route going through Samarkand and Bukhara.  If you
start from there you may see many historic areas that were travelled by 
Alexander, Marco Polo, Timurlane, Changez Khan, Babar, etc.  Following that
road you'll eventually end up in Pakistan/China.  I would recommend as a must
since I tried it in Spring of this year!

Good luck

Omar
omar.farooq@att.com
From: hasnie@ecn.purdue.edu (Rizwan Hasnie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: OLYMPICS HOCKEY
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:56:31 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

Following are the results of todays' Hockey matches at Barcelona

Australia 7		Argentina 0
Spain     3		NZ        0
Netherlands 5		Unified Team 2
Germany   3		India     0
Britain   2		Egypt     0
Pakistan  4		Malaysia  1

 Source: rec.sport.hockey.field

Rizwan.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: back from pakistan
From: minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 19:36:45 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati

Salam Alaikum everyone. I am back from the land of bismillah hotel's and 
rahmatun-lil-alameen carpets. I enjoyed my month long stay in Pakistan very 
much and it was definitely a good graduation present for me (i am a bachelor
in biology and computer science). i learned a lot about myself and about
pakistan while i was there. i learned how far i really am away from being a
"true" pakistani as well as how deeply entrenched pakistan is in me. i went
there specifically to attend my uncle's wedding, he was the last of my uncles 
or aunts to get married so it was a must see event. this was a time when i saw
almost all my relatives together at one time. there was a lot of sharing of
feelings and thoughts. by the time it was over, the mahndi, nikah, valimah, 
maklavah, i thought to myself, i want this sort of thing for myself and my 
parents to enjoy. it was very nice....

i went to pakistan to revive my dead brain and 6 sal ke pardhai ki kasar
nikalna. i tried to party as much as i could and not think as much as possible.
instead i slept and saw the beautiful sights of islamabad, thandiani, broha,
abbotabad, and parts of karachi. i went to the beach in karachi and wished that
i had a woman with me....

karachi is where my relatives live and i enjoyed going there, but it is a city
shot to hell. crime is rampant, there is a water shortage problem, there is a 
problem with the MQM. A lot of dust, the frustration level of the people there
is very high. If I ever go back to Pakistan, I'd rather live in Islamabad.

there are many other things i want to talk about but i don't know how to say 
it. let's start a thread and maybe i will know how to answer the questions.

salam alaikum
From: onf@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (omar.farooq)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: RE: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:06:05 GMT
Organization: AT&T

------------------------
Article 26027 (3 more) in soc.culture.pakistan:
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (21st)
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:47:17 GMT

I may be nit-picking here, but have you seen any mandir built on a
destroyed mosque. Sikhs are/were a militant community. In India, I
have heard many hindus say that Sikhs were responsible for protecting
many hindus during the partition killings. I guess, some of this
protection extended further.

Again, this is just for my curiosity. If I learn of hindu destruction
of mosques, it will make me humbler.

Sumitro
------------------------
As far as East Punjab is concerned, I only heard from the local
Hindu villagers, who interestingly enough called some mosques by
their original names and yet went to pray there.

As far as eyewitnessing it is concerned:
If you go just outside Hyderabad (in Pakistan), there is a string of
villages there with a sizeable Hindu population.  There are many
sites there that were originally mosques, some were destoryed and 
mandirs were built there, since pockets of that area were owned by
Rajahs and Hindu-landowners.  Yes, many of those mandirs were
reconverted when Pakistan was created and many mandirs were allowed
to stand without intereference from the government.  So, before
this issue gets out of hand and others start getting angry, as you may
have read, mutual ignorance is the source of this problem and it should
make us all humbler to realize what many of out ancestors did and
some still are doing.

Omar
From: memon@acsu.buffalo.edu (Naveed Siraj Memon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Devil with no dress on :)
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:41:23 GMT
Organization: UB

>From: khan@davidsys.com
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
>Subject: Re: First Pakistani MD-PhD!
>Message-ID: <1992Jul30.093144.30417@davidsys.com>
>Date: 30 Jul 92 17:31:44 GMT


  >When you counter my arguments against 
>mad rush for worldly 'scholarship' with
>"Iqra!" from the Quran, you should understand
>that Allah swt is referring to the Quran,
>True Knowledge, not the False Knowledge of
>universities of today, a knowledge based on
>denial of God, and insists on Uncertainty.

A sufi like yourself should be the first one to advocate the search for
knowledge because it leads to a better understanding of one's Self
and therefore God. Knowledge is never False, and never denies a universal
Truth but only re-invigourates(sp) It. So it is through Knowledge that we
gain in the universities that we get to know God's thoughts, the rest are
mere details :)

>  On one level the Quran is a clear message,
>on the other level it is a key to  many
>other worlds of knowledge. 
  >You can have as many Phd.'s as you want,
>but can you identify your own Shaitaan?

Yes, though I don't have a PhD but I know my own Shaitaan. It is I. :)

>Can you identify which spirit you may be
>possessed with at any given time during
>the course of any endeavor, whether it
>is from Allah swt , or from a source 180 degrees
>opposite??

Khan Sahib, open the windows and let some fresh air come into your office.
180 degree opposite to God is also God by the definition of God in the 
Sufi school of thought i.e Every single thing is the manifestation of Allah.

  >Status built around worldly pedestals
>is falsehood. 


Khan, do you want me to buy you a ticket to Pakistan. You can come with me,
and both of us can become must malangs at the Lal shahbaz Qalandar mazaar.
File in your resignation tomorrow ok :)



Alif AsankooN yaar paRhaya
Bay dee baas na booN



The Shaitaan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor)
Subject: Don't Forget, It's Pakistan!!!!
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:25:40 GMT


I remember it reading in one of Mustan'sar Husain Tarar's books (I believe
it was Gipsy) that when he went back to Pakistan after spending many years
in a certain European country, he had become quite "liberal" minded. He states
that once he casually asked a couple of ladies on Lahore Mall Road to join
him for coffee. Their reaction, he writes, reminded him that things "are"
different in Pakistan and he would have to give his memory and habits a few
refreshings doses.

Anyway, those of you who experienced going back after long time or for the
first time, did you have any such funny experience?

--nasir
umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan