From: elamjd@elbert.sandr.com (Dan Elam)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 16:08:42 EST
Organization: Imaging Consultant

hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong) writes:

> From article <2621@usna.NAVY.MIL>, by dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS 
> > In article <1993Jan11.040241.23474@netcom.com> hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong
> > !From article <1993Jan11.033003.26791@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!, by ginsbe
> > !!!The forcast then called for no cloud at or near that level, 
> > !!!and having not come close to cloud prior, I made a bad call (about how
> > !!!close I was to the cloud).
> > !! 
> > !! [Other sarcastic comments deleted.]
> > !! 
> > !! Let's give Mr. Chong a break.  Our complaint isn't with him, it's with
> > !! his instructor.  If he can't tell how far away a cloud is while flying,
> > !! and feels that climbing into/near clouds to get over a mountain is
> > !! sensible for a student pilot, he shouldn't be flying solo.
> > !! 
> > !! 						Matt Ginsberg
> > !
> > !Wow, I can see it now.  Mr Ginsberg pitying poor Chinaman, cannot even
> > !drive, must less fly a plane.  If a Chinaman should make a mistake, that
> > !means he will do it EVERY time.  We've got ourselves another
> > !Mr I-never-make-a-mistake, don't we?  :-) 
> > 
> > Easy Mr. Chong. Most of us on the net would not care if you were purple
> > and came from Mars. You'd get the same sort of response.
> > 
> > As I recall in your first posting you did not indicate that you were
> > a student. Consequently, most assumed that you were a PP and were
> > behaving incorrectly. You got told about it. That is the nature of
> > this group. Most of us are VERY concerned with safety and what you
> > did was basically unsafe. Learn from the comments.
> > 
> > Matt Ginsberg is right and is not complaining about you. What he
> > has said is that you need to get with your instructor and clear
> > up some things. Learn from the comment, don't attack Matt on the
> > basis of a paranoid racial slur position. Most often comments are
> > NOT made on the basis of race etc. until after a response such as
> > yours --- sadly not always true as we all know.
> > 
> > In aviation we all make mistakes. Provided we survive, the important
> > thing is how we recover from the mistake AND learning from the mistake.
> > Failure to do the latter, even when you don't like the manner in
> > which the correction is presented, will get you killed and possibly
> > lead to the death of someone else -- perhaps even a loved one.
> 
> From the beginning I had said that it was accidental, and I learned from
> it (stay away from cloud).  The main point of the post was to alert other 
> pilots, student or otherwise not to mess with cloud. 
> 
> But it seems some people has to have the last word, like accusing me
> of delibrately going into cloud, or the general "flying unsafely" 
> accusation, when I had said that it was accidental and it taught me
> a great deal.  These people seems to think that they are God when it
> come to flying, and that other people who commit mistakes have no right 
> talking about their experience on the net, and that the same people will
> never learn from their mistake. 
> 
> It seems that these people think that if I did not talk about the experience 
> in a shaky, scary, voice, then I must have done it on purpose, and planned 
> to write about it on the net.  I know that pilot are serious people, and
> I mentioned this in another thread, but I do not expected to be made a bad 

( more stuff about racist remark not related to safe flying)

Sigh.  Hoi, when I orginally made the remark that got me branded as 
Mr.-I-Never-Make-A-Mistake, it was not pointing out that clouds are 
dangerous - you already know that.  It was the attitude.

In your original post you said you had 60 hours and were "not trying to 
brag" and then went on as if you had completed some macho right of 
passage flying into IMC.

Beyond the safety of our own skins when we're flying IMC, I don't think 
any of us really care about whether you learned about clouds (that's up 
to your instructor as we all agree).  But the point that I - and Matt and 
Dave, I believe - are trying to make, is that your attitude is what 
concerns us.  It's all one big perfect sky - until we put people in it.  
We all have to look out for each other when we're up there.  And frankly, 
with the pressure for non-pilots who don't understand and believe we are 
all a bunch of fighter jocks waiting to "rock the tower" and break the 
rules at first chance, we all need to stick together and make flying 
safer.  It's no accident the fatality rate has dropped significantly in 
the last ten years.  Pilots are smarter and better than ever about 
sharing information.  I know REC.AVIATION has helped make me a better 
pilot.

To hell with the clouds.  We care about our skin - and we care about 
yours.

As for any racial remarks, right.  They have no bearing or place when it 
comes to improving safety.  I assume and hope the remarks were 
accidental or misunderstood.

Dan "Trying to be Safer" Elam
N7347T - "Yellow Bird"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student