From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Choice for men
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:38:57 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: The Scorpions Nest

#I claim that Muffy supports choice for women, but she is
#against choice for men.  She sees nothing wrong if a
#birth control failure destroys a man's life.

In article <JULIE.92Sep4131150@amazon.chem.columbia.edu> 
julie@amazon.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright) writes:

>What choice, exactly, are we talking about here?  

The issue has been discussed quite a few times in soc.men, soc.women, 
soc.singles, soc.feminism, alt.child-support, alt.flame and talk.abortion.

Most of us (non-feminist && non-traditionalist)
supported the following idea:

In a case of pregnancy the woman would (if she wants) notify the man
about it.  Then he will have a week to decide if he wants rights
and responsibilities (as one package) toward the future child.  
If he answers yes, then the situation is similar to the situation
today; if he answer no then he would have no rights or
responsibilities toward the future child.

>Therefore, I do not believe in some sort of complete symmetry of choice.  

I'm not looking for "absolute justice;" a reasonable, workable
compromise is good enough for me.

>   >You, like most feminists think that this is equality.

>What, did you take a poll?  Nobody asked me...  

The debate has been going on for a long time, and most feminists
who posted were against choice for men; the paragraphs that I 
quoted from Muffy are typical.

>to term by not allowing her to get an abortion.  As for what to do about
>it legally, I don't have a firm opinion yet, because I am no expert
>on the legal obligations men have right now (and they seem to vary from
>state to state, too).  

None.

The woman can sue him for support, and get it.  In most
states she can ask the state to sue him for her, and
the state tends to win in *most* cases...

>I do believe, however, that once a man signs that
>birth certificate, he's accepting the decision the woman made to have the
>child, and has accepted parental responsibilities, as well.  

What about cases were it is found later (by a blood taste)
that he is not the father?  (Right now he can't have any
way out after he signed, even if the woman lied to him.)

#So please fuck off to your favorite newsgroup, and stay there.

>I hope someone else with your point of view on "choice for men" can do 
>a better job of expressing it than THAT.  

d has been around for sometime, and he/she knows what "choice for
men" means.  The "fuck off" message was directed only to him/her.

>I know it's upsetting when people think 
>for themselves and don't agree with every little word you say, 

Most feminists see the abortion right support as an important 
litmus test, and I agree with them.  For similar reasons I see
the "choice for men" as an important litmus test, and not as
"every little word I say."

>but maybe some day you'll learn that if you treat people with respect 
>they'll be more likely to listen to you.

For some people the above claim is true, but d is not one of them.

Hillel                                               gazit@cs.duke.edu

"Uncritical support" is a contradiction in terms.  --  Joanna Russ
Newsgroups: alt.feminism