HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experie
Date: 17 Apr 92 05:01:59 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


   >From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)

Hey, Mr. Burdoff, I've deleted your questions, but thought I might throw
a few ideas and bits of information your way.

Let's start with your questions. I pretty much had to chuckle when I
originally saw them-- they're interesting questions in theory, no doubt,
but in a sense they miss the mark that you intend. For an advanced
practicioner, someone who's been doing this long enough to be able to
provide 'scientific' data and analysis, the questions you asked seem
quite, to be blunt, irrelevant. Let me try to explain this.

To use an analogy, your questions to magickians might be compared
to asking a physicist "What's the real story with phlogiston?", or "Why
do you think the atom looks like a miniature solar system?". These look
like valid questions, to the non-expert, but they're really based on
obsolete understandings.

You asked, I believe, "Have any of you done any rituals"? Presumably
you're referring to Goetic or Grimoire derived rituals, or perhaps the
rituals described in the Golden Dawn manuscripts, rituals intended to
'conjure' spirits or 'invoke' forces to accomplish some goal, such as
finding treasure or winning the heart of a beloved.

However, by the time a magickian has spent a few years practicing,
they've often performed hundreds, even thousands, of rituals that have
little relationship to the rites of the medeival grimoires. Practices
such as the quabalistic cross, lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram,
and middle pillar are all extremely important, even fundamental rituals,
that nearly all magickians have spent a great deal of time practicing,
but the results of these rituals are very, very different, in quality
and quantity, from the b-movie stories that surround the goetic rituals.

Don't let josh or tim or any of the other net.gods get your goat-- they
can't hurt you, this is all just text on screens. I suggest you consider
their criticisms a form of grandmotherly kindness-- they are, after all,
not trying to humor you...

But consider that your questions may be entirely inapproprite for your
stated goal of trying to get some scientific handle on what magick is
all about. After all, one of the key elements in scientific method,
after gathering your initial data, is formulating a coherently
descriptive hypothesis, and developing experiments to test the same.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

Thanks, Bill Eichman
---
 * SLMR 2.0 * VOTE
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Thursday, 16 Apr 1992 14:18:01 EDT
From: Luis Sanchez <LSANCHE@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject:    Santeria

test
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: antunes@astro.psu.edu (Sandy Antunes)
Subject: Re: The Magic Of David Copperfield
Organization: Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics, Penn State University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:04:37 GMT

phantom@Bogus.COM  (gee, saw an alt.forgery from this site) writes:

>Well, I am not going to say that it is impossible.  A man names John Keely
>did research with something called a Krell Helmet that allowed you to do
>some very interesting things.  I think that it dealt with amplifying the
>brain waves or something.  I can post the article if there is enough interest.

Interesting.  The Krell were the aliens in "Forbidden Planet" who created
incredible technology and then were destroyed by manifestations of their
own Id.  Given this likely origin for the helmet name, I don't think I'd
want to try it.

						sandy
----------------------------
antunes@astro.psu.edu  Sandy Antunes  "Lights! Camera! Action! Timber!"
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: cward@mordor.dseg.ti.com (Christopher Ward)
Subject: Reward offered
Keywords: money rare book
Reply-To: christopher.ward@dseg.ti.com
Organization: Perhaps some, but not too much...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 20:20:51 GMT

Someone here in Dallas (without net access) asked me if I could post this:

Looking for a rare book: "The Secret Fire" by Cyliani published around 1922
possibly in Paris.  In addition to the cost of the book, a substantial finders
fee will be paid.

If you are able to locate this book, please contact me via e-mail at
Christopher.Ward@dseg.ti.com

---
           ___                | Sometimes I'm almost there 
	  /                   | Sometimes I fly like an eagle
	 /___ hristopher      | Sometimes I'm deep in despair...
From: joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Girl with a problem
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 05:09:45 GMT

shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith) writes:

>890780m@ace.acadiau.ca (DARRELL IAN MANTHORNE) writes


>        I am posting about a friend of a friend. She was apparently
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^--the infamous FOAF
>        playing with some Tarrot Cards alone in her room in residence
>        and since then she has had a few problems. Such as flickering
>        lights, curtins opening and closing by themselves, shot
>        glasses flying across the room at her, her room being 10
>        degrees cooler than the rest of the house (starting at the
>        door), and one night she was awoken by something touching her
>        and she had some wetness across her neck. Some of these
>        incidences have been witnessed by other people. Anyone have
>        any ideas about a solution before she has to go through exams
>        with her "problems"?


I'd like to propose an informal guideline; fi someone tells you a
story about something that happened to 'a friend of a friend' that
was wierd and out of the ordinary, please take some pains to verify
that this person actually exists (talking to them would be nice)and
if they do, that the described events are actually claimed to have
occurred (by the party in question). else take it to alt.folklore.urban.
we have enough crap around here as it is.

josh
From: phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 04:59:47 CDT
Organization: Bogus.COM -- Public Access Network Services

AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard) writes:

> If you absolutely must do it....Make sure you're protected.  Don't
> just call anyone - try to be a little specific in what you're trying
> to get and remembering that it is commonly believed that most
> 'people' move on to other bodies or planes of existence
> (heaven/hell), so a dead relative or friend might be an unlikely

Yeah, I know, I tried to get Elvis... No luck there either.  Hehe, but
seriously I have not been able to contact anyone I know on one of those things,
I usually end up taking a chance and finding someone, and then if they are
good, I will call them back later.

Its been a LONG time though...

> target.  Make sure you have properly sent the thing away/finished
> the cycle when done so you don't have lingering things.

How do YOU do that?  We just tell 'em to scram (politly of course).

> And last, but not least, think twice - is the risk/benefit ratio
> worth it?

Always.  :-/


===
* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe
My opinions are my own.  They may or may not be shared by the management.
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:42:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: netlink.9sgZiB1w164w
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

> Wow aren't you mr. negative know it all.  Personally, I find the subject
> of magick quite fasinating, but I've been quite bored with this newsgroup,
> because it's just loaded with a bunch of intellectual details.  I thought
> is might be interesting if people would be willing to share their experiences
> instead for a change.  One charge that people make of magick is that its
> just a bunch ranting and raving and no action.  All the secrecy is just
> to cover up that there isn't anything behind it.  I hope it does something
> for you to act holier than thou, but it doesn't do anything for me but
> bore me.

 
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 
I saw and fairly much ignored your inquisitive post of a few days back,
mainly because it was too general.  What kind of rituals are you interest
-ed in?  I attend Gnostic Mass at least once a month, and hope to one
day be an officer in that ritual.  I perform a variant of the LBRP on
a daily basis, and now, as the Thelemic Holy Days approach their 
climax and terminus, I have once again taken up the four stations of
Resh.  A few weeks back, I was part of a discusion in this news groups
about the N.O.X. signs and their relationship with the Star Ruby Ritual.
  
Maybe you could use my example as a bit of a guide line for future 
inquiries.  As the true rulers of the City of Diaspar are known to say
"State your question.  Please think clearly."
 
Love is the law, love under will.
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
From: dat2138@diku.dk (Stefan Krabbe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: The Art of War
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:32:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Hail ....

Do one of you know where I can get the electronic copy
of 'The Art of War' ?

While browsing through my files, i discovered that my
own copy of it had disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

OBMAGICK:

Here's a little incantaton that stops flow of blod:


       Listen o blood, instead of flowing,
         instead of pouring forth thy warm
         stream.
       Stop, o blood, like a wall,
       Stop like a hedge.
       Stop like a reef in the sea:
         like stiff sedge in the moss,
         like a boulder in the field,
         like a pine in the wood.



Kind Regards
Stefan.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Please REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Summary: Sorcery, technical vs. practical definitions
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 13 APR 92 16:06:16    


In article <JLPHBNX2@cc.swarthmore.edu>, Elisheva writes...
>I recently posted a request for info on sorcery.  I Really  need to gather
>info. by tommorrow.  Please reply.
>I need to know how various people define sorcery, plusa any philosopies,
>personal beliefs, or storie you have concerning it.  I know that this is a bit
>broad, ut, thde problem ias thqat I have heard sorcery defined as purely evil,
>andd read that in a feewbooks, but I disagree.  I have also heard that it is
>simply high magic.  Please do respond......thanks..

The word sorcery is technically distinguished from magic in general by its 
historical emphasis on conjuring (in the sense of summoning spirits), and has 
in particular the connotation of the conjuring of evil spirits.   This is
a definition biased by general usage, however, as can be easily determined
if you can find a copy of the authoritative unabridged Oxford Dictionary on 
historical principles, and compare the derivation of sorcery with that of
magic and of witchcraft.  Sorcery took on its evil connotations seemingly 
independently of ('high') magic, even though they are commonly used as synonyms.
In the 16th century, theurgy and goety were distinguished as white and black
magic, and sorcery began to take on its 'evil spirits' connotations as
part of the popular movement against witchcraft.  

In general usage, sorcery is sometimes considered synonymous with 
('high') magic, but more frequently considered synonymous with witchcraft.  

In practical use, (common exceptions being the frameworks used by some 
theologians) sorcery is not actually identified specifically with evil, nor is 
there any reason to believe that someone identified as a sorceror is primarily 
malicious in intent.  

Josh had some good advice there.  People can often do themselves more
harm with fear than a demoniac can do with spells.  Of course a dose
of cyanide or a round of AK-47 fire go beyond what most of use think of
as spells, so observe good tactical sense as well.  :)

						kind regards,
						and take care !

						todd
From: 890780m@ace.acadiau.ca (DARRELL IAN MANTHORNE)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Girl with a problem
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:54:15 GMT
Organization: Acadia University


	I am posting about a friend of a friend. She was apparently playing 
with some Tarrot Cards alone in her room in residence and since then she has 
had a few problems. Such as flickering lights, curtins opening and closing 
by themselves, shot glasses flying across the room at her, her room being 10 
degrees cooler than the rest of the house (starting at the door), and one 
night she was awoken by something touching her and she had some wetness 
across her neck. Some of these incidences have been witnessed by other 
people. Anyone have any ideas about a solution before she has to go through 
exams with her "problems"?
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Thursday, 16 Apr 1992 17:20:49 EDT
From: Luis Sanchez <LSANCHE@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Santeria



Chango, Obatala, Las siete potencias africanas. Prueba.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Subject: Re: Crowley's Soul and Annata
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:18:50 GMT

From article <1992Apr7.230921.15767@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, by iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ian E. Wickram):
> 	I don't know how found any of you are of Crowley's auto-hagiography
> but in it I have come to notice a large inconsistency (heavens no!). 
[[...]]
> soul.  Yet I find Crowley constantly suggesting or expressedly stating a  
> permanence of self even though one can of course find exceptions, and even

Stop and think about the self he's referring to.  Besides, even
Buddhism accepts boddhisatvas.

On the other hand, what happens when you plant eastern seeds in
western soils?  Paraphrasing the Book of Lies: "Life may have been too
much for Buddha but it's, if anything, too dull for me."

hiho
-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: Elisheva
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Please REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: 13 Apr 92 04:20:26 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College

I recently posted a request for info on sorcery.  I Really  need to gather
info. by tommorrow.  Please reply.
I need to know how various people define sorcery, plusa any philosopies,
personal beliefs, or storie you have concerning it.  I know that this is a bit
broad, ut, thde problem ias thqat I have heard sorcery defined as purely evil,
andd read that in a feewbooks, but I disagree.  I have also heard that it is
simply high magic.  Please do respond......thanks..

ALso, for personal reasons, AANY protection magick would be appreciated.
From: phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 05:11:18 CDT
Organization: Bogus.COM -- Public Access Network Services

walrus@bessel.umd.edu (Grig Larson) writes:

> I assure you, teenagers are lot more connected than adults. They have yet to
> be brainwashed on what they see as "not existing."

Yes, this is true.  It is sad in a way too.  It seems that as we grow older
that we are taught that this sort of thing isn't real.  But, the problem is
though, I already know about it.  I think it is a little foolish to just
blindly dismiss something of this nature.

Also, alot of people are terrified of this, and thus for will never touch it.
(If they didn't believe it, they wouldn't be frightened)

Many people are terrified about the things that they cannot understand.

I am intrigued.



===
* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe
My opinions are my own.  They may or may not be shared by the management.
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 10 Apr 92 12:26:45 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In article <1992Apr9.155344.11784@athena.cs.uga.edu> lapena@athena.cs.uga.edu (Chito Lapena) writes:
>>
>>Wow aren't you mr. negative know it all.  Personally, I find the subject
>>of magick quite fasinating, but I've been quite bored with this newsgroup,
>>because it's just loaded with a bunch of intellectual details.  I thought
>>is might be interesting if people would be willing to share their experiences
>>instead for a change.  One charge that people make of magick is that its
>>just a bunch ranting and raving and no action.  All the secrecy is just
>>to cover up that there isn't anything behind it.  I hope it does something
>>for you to act holier than thou, but it doesn't do anything for me but
>>bore me.
>
>
>I have a ritual for you: turn on your tv to Geraldo. When you see
>something about people drinking goat's blood and stuff flying around,
>say these words to yourself:
>
>"Oh how terrible but oh so fascinating."
>
>If you really find the subject of magick fascinating, you wouldn't be
>bored with some of this newsgroup. Then again you might be confusing magick
>with box-office effects. One of the credos (which can be found on the
>opening page of the Musaeum Hermeticum) of magick is that it is 
>not for the sake of magnificence or sensationalism but for the sake
>of gaining knowledge and manifesting will on earth. That could get
>pretty boring if you admit you have nothing to manifest.
>

I'm sorry if I misled you. I'm not really that into the "magnificence or
sensationalism" of it, but rather a more personal side.  I really liked
Crowleys novels "Diary of a Dope Fiend" and "Moonlight" or whatever it was
called (the exact title escapes me).  I really like stories of magickal 
experiences, because it adds a personal touch to it.  The cook books on 
theory and practice don't keep my interest, because they seem to me
to be cold and distant.   I think I can learn much more from a more
personal account.  I think its sad that people have to cloak magick in
so much secrecy.  I'm convinced that it's the secrey that keeps it
from being practiced more widely, and it also makes people feel more
threatened by it.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:32:28 GMT

: > Why not?
:  
: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
:  
: That reply only works for Carl Carcher and his Hamburgers.  While there
: are many variants on Sex Magick, the central discipline of most Sex Magick
: is that the practitioner does not even think about sex outside of a magical
: context.  That means you don't end up being distracted by the critter in
: the tight leather mini skirt.
:  
: Love is the law, love under will.

Yea - but just because some people have said that is "central", does not make
it true for everyone.

To me, these people are setting sex up as a taboo. Sorry, there is too much
of that already in some of the mainstream religions.

In my opinion, which is far from humble, is that sex magic is just another
form of magic - nothing more. It, of necessity, combines sex and some magical
operation. This may, or may not, actually help in gaining what was desired.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Pug)
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Organization: Pug's Pub and Pleasure Palace
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 02:17:20 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.161052.8045@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>>I would say that anyone who charges money for magick will get what is
>>>coming to them.
>> Money is more of a social trophy than a material object.
>???
>I equate money with physical freedom.  The more money, the more choices I 
>have about physical things - 
>  *what* I want to do, 
>    *where* I want to be, 
>      *what* I want to be surrounded by, 
>        *who* I want to associate with, 
>          *when* will I do whatever.

These are all social aspects of life. Spiritual aspects are not based on
the amount of money you have.

>Physical freedom is not more important than spiritual freedom, emotional 
>freedom, or whatever other freedoms there are, and too much emphasis on the 
>pursuit of money seems to mess up these other freedoms.  Maybe because people 
>tend to see money as more than it really is and get trapped by the demons of 
>image, lifestyle, fashion, upward-mobility, etc...

This is what usually happens with money. You end up being worried about
it and what it can do for you. How to get more, how to keep it, etc. I
feel that the more adept of the magickians aren't as worried about this
than they are about spiritual gain. I could be completely wrong, but
they seem to be conflicting ideas to me.

Take care.

-- 
Richard Bainter          Mundanely     |       "Teachers are supposed to
Phelim Utred Gervas      Society       |        teach you *HOW* to learn 
Pug                      Generally     |        not *WHAT* to learn."   
  miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu  |  pug@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  |  pug@wixer.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Enochian Magick (a la John Dee)
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:09:03 GMT

haynes@apple.com (Charles Haynes) writes:
: > 
: > Strong words from a fellow fool!  Aren't we all?
: > 
: 
: If we are all fools, the words were not strong. If the words are strong, we
: are not all fools. You then are either a liar, or a fool.
: 
: That's logic.
: 
: I am a liar, not a fool.

Ah. But then you could just be a fool who thinks he is a liar.  :-)

Bill
From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:51:57 GMT

>>4. Finally, has anyone ever run into a black magician?
>>I'm not certain if they exist.  I've never met one.  There
>>are constant stories and warnings of them, but I've never quite
>>met one.  Please don't practice it on me to prove you exist if 
>>you are one, but please share any experiences you may have had.

Yes, but in these PC days they prefer to be called Afro-American ;-)

--Semhaza
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 13 Apr 92 04:33:48 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

> What is Evocative Magick?  What is the Goetia?

 
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 
Most of Magick is a lot of hard work.  The early part of that work is
study (and an important part up to the time of the Celebration of the 
Greater Feast).   For more than a few lines of definition, check your
University's Library (probably the closed stacks at Bath) under those
headings.
 
Evocative Magick is a ritual where by a "spiritual being" is called into
manifestation (usually within a triangle on the outside of the magic
circle).  The Goetia is the most famous (and imfamous) system of this
type of magic.  Magickal Childe in New York publishes at least one 
translation.
 
Love is the law, love under will.
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181