HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: interminable ad hominem argument
Date: 9 Jan 93 03:34:45 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Distribution: world,local
Organization: (The Afterlife of Gogol, Inc.)

In article <6JAN199314044249@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>,
lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) wrote:
>    Also, many (if not most) published results these days are never cited
> by anyone else, let alone replicated.  Fraud can actually be quite difficult
> to detect.

True, I've sometimes wondered about the future sanctity of academical
research, where someone cleverly rewrites something that few know exists
due to the mass publication of academical papers. This will become 
an even more apparent problem in future. Maybe we need AI systems 
that could do fuzzy comparisons.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
Usenix member # 6110.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kimball@stsci.edu (Timothy Kimball)
Subject: Re: Laura Houghteling Murder
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:29:16 GMT

Ray Rosch (rosch@cpdw.enet.dec.com) wrote:
: 
: ...the murder of Laura Houghteling of Bethesda, MD....
: It was reported by the local TV media - WBZ-TV, Boston - that the Police in
: Bethesda, MD used a Psychic in their investigation.  The Psychic led Police to
: a bloody pillow case a mile or so from the victems house...
: 
: This _seems_ to be a case where a Psychic found evidence to a crime which was
: confirmed by the Police. I say _seems_ as it's either an extrodinary coinci-
: dence or the media has mis-reported the facts of the case.
:

Or maybe the police ought to be questioning the psychic?

---
tdk     My opinions are my own.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Why does Eire get so much press?
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:56:11 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>FROM:   Steve Lang <lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk>
>
>In Article 38465 of alt.atheism, U16244@uicvm.uic.edu (David James Alexander Hanley) writes:
[...]
>>churches.  If only they could tell their people in Ireland to stop
>>shooting protestants..

>
>The Vatican do tell their people in Ireland to stop shooting protestants.
>And the vast majority of Catholics, like most Protestants in Northern
>Ireland do not participate in such violent actions.
>
>Steve Lang.
>

Boy!  I'll say they don't participate!  Anybody with some real 
statistics on the "strife" in Ireland?

Estimating about 1000 violent deaths in Ireland in the last quarter 
century, this works out to about 40 murders/bombings/whatnots per year, 
or about 1/100000 population per year.  As one of the safest, least 
violent places on the globe (relative to really dangerous places, like 
Atlanta or <Anytown, USA>), where does Ireland get this reputation?
They ship children from Ireland to Detroit for the summer "to get them away 
from all the violence" back in Dublin.  ("Begora, Colleen.  Seems pretty hot 
here in the summer in County Cork.  I think the children would be more 
comfortable in the Sudan this year, don't you?" )8-O

  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->>Hell, Americans would probably find this a marginally 
;;| >-  `.__),;;   acceptable hazard level for Little League Baseball. 8^)

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Why does Eire get so much press?
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:54:00 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>FROM:   mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
>
*Snort*
>
>Violence in Dublin?  That's a good one.
>
>Even Belfast is safer than most US cities...
>
>mathew
>
I've update my estimates on another post.  Didn't change that much, just 
somewhat more accurate, I hope.
  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->> Getting out of alt.messianic.  
 ;| >-  `.__),;;    A stitch in nine saves time. (That's a joke, son. 8^) 

Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21961 alt.messianic:3825 alt.atheism:24855
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 4 Jan 1993 02:51:43 CST
From: David James Alexander Hanley <U16244@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
 <1993Jan3.151154.18933@cs.unca.edu> <1i82snINNhc1@fido.asd.sgi.com>
 <1993Jan4.022547.24574@cs.unca.edu>

In article <1993Jan4.022547.24574@cs.unca.edu>, kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley)
says:
>
>
>>  Their anti-semitic program was on public
>>show early on.   The elimination of Jews from Germany was in Clause
>>5 of the 1920 Party program.
>
>So all these people "wanted the Jews and Atheists killed" as you put
>it?
>  The Catholic Church is led by fallible men who make foreign policy
>mistakes and have many skeletons in their closets, and they can be

  Really?  I thought the catholic church is lead by the pope, who,
according to catholic doctrine, is infallable.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for
protection to his own" - Thomas Jefferson, 1814

SEND E-MAIL TO : hanley1@earth.eecs.uic.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Why does Eire get so much press?
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:31:10 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->> Trying to get rid of alt.messianic.
;;| >-  `.__),;;

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Satans E-mail.
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:24:24 GMT

In article <13110011@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com> tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates) writes:
>John...I'm your friend too..  
>
>Please send my letter:
>
>
>Dear Satan:
>
>	 I need money.  Please send me lots.
>
>			       Thank-you.
>

You forgot to seal your Soul in an envelope, and send it along.


-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mmeyer@m2.dseg.ti.com (Mark Meyer)
Subject: Re: Psychics' Predictions Fizzle For 1992
Organization: TI DSEG, Spring Creek, Plano, Tx.
	<1993Jan4.134711@IASTATE.EDU> <1993Jan4.202155.14634@mail.cornell.edu>
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:11:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.202155.14634@mail.cornell.edu> phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:
> "Bigfoot is a space alien...and he fathered Elvis's love child!
> Amazing pictures!"

	Wait a sec... he >fathered< >Elvis's< love child?... :-)

-- 
Mark Meyer                                               | mmeyer@dseg.ti.com |
Texas Instruments, Inc.,  Plano TX                       +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
  When an eel bites your thigh / As you're just swimming by / That's a moray...
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: dsc@gemini.tmc.edu (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892)
Subject: Re: Papal Infallibility [was Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up?]
Organization: NASA GSFC CDP VLBI
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:49:38 GMT

In article <1ihnmgINN1va@news.aero.org> shag@aero.org (Robert M. Unverzagt) writes:
>
>Recalling my RC teaching from long ago, the Pope has only spoken
>"from the chair" three times.  One of the three things (here my
>memory is even more fuzzy) was that Mary was born without sin, one
>...

I think you refer to the dogma of the Imaculate Conception.

This refers to the conception OF Mary, BY Ann and states that Mary was conceived
without original sin.  This particular dogma always seemed rather esotheric
to me!

Supposedly, according to a survey, only about 10% of Catholics know this is what
is meant by the Imaculate Conception.
--
dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov  
 |  Regards,         |   Hughes STX                |    Code 926.9 GSFC        |
 |  Doug Caprette    |   Lanham, Maryland          |    Greenbelt, MD  20771   |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human
 soul."                           -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: interminable ad hominem argument
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:11:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.175751.699@rosevax.rosemount.com>,
grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes:
> The church demands that it's pronouncements be believed without doubt
> or evidence.  Science doesn't make that demand.

   Speaking as an atheist and secular humanist I must take some issue with this
statement.  Theologians in many churches argue til they're blue in the face,
doubt things all over the place, and pile up mountians of historical and
cultural evidence.  Likewise bible study groups often have ferocious arguments
in which doubt runs rampant and evidence of all sorts is presented.

   Christianity makes a number of demonstrable, falsifiable claims, like
"murder is, on average, a bad thing".  I think what you getting at is that the
claims made are often difficult or impossible to quantify and that all doubt,
debate, evidence, etc. takes place within a set of assumptions that themselves
have absolutely no rational basis.  Assumptions like, "There is a God and
we have Half a Clue about what He wants".

   You seem to be confusing churches in general with the way some churches
somtimes treat their lay members.  For that matter, I, in my capacity as
a qualified scientist, often find myself asking that my pronnouncements be
beleived without any evidence.  Usually when the person I'm talking to 
is too ignorant to understand the evidence or too lazy to look at it, but 
still...

> Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I'm pretending I'm
> Rosemount Inc.                                |pulling in a TROUT!  Am I
>                                               |doing it correctly??
> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com                 |

   Why on earth would you pretend to do it incorrectly?

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 13:40:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.174857.29599@cs.unca.edu>
kepley@photon.phys.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
 
>
>In article <1993Jan8.135041.970@klaava.Helsinki.FI> cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
>>
>>Strange, that people (= John ATA Something, apparantly you, and most of
>>the "others" - perhaps even a lot of the atheists) don't seem to get the
>>point even when it is spelled out.
>>To repeat: the point is that if somebody is religious, that says diddly
>>squat about his/her morals. _That_ is the point.
>>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>       Tero Sand
>>--
>
>Well, that is your point anyway.  I don't think you'll find many Christians
>who think that Christianity is mainly about morals.  You don't understand
>Christianity.
>
 
Who spoke of mainly about morals? As long as the information A is a Christian
does not hold information about A's morality, it is fair to conclude that
morality is not affected by  Christianity at all. In case you don't like
the 'at all', as given by the original poster, attack that.
 
 
And the majority of Christinas I know say that Christianity about redemption
to be gained through sticking to the right morals.
 
But since you appear to know more, would you care to enlighten us?
   Benedikt
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22043 alt.atheism:25055
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:13:57 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1993Jan5.010606.5887@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>1) There were no Christians killed by the "Jewish Atheists".  That was
>   sarcasm meant to show how absurd it is that the Catholic Church was
>   responsible for what the Nazis did to the Jews.

So you didn't intend to be taken seriously?  Good to know.

>2) If you doubt the murderousness of Stalin, you're behind even the
>   Soviet Communist Party which has admitted it.

If.  I don't doubt the murderousness of Stalin, I know that he did
away with tens of millions, but I do very seriously doubt that the
religious orientation of the victims had much if anything to do with it.
Nevertheless, I'll note the references.

>3) Yes I do make a distinction between Atheists and communists

Good.  Do you also make a distinction between communists and the
"Bolshevic" [_sic_] leadership of the Soviet Union in the time of Stalin?

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Advertising for Homeopathic remedies (sic)
Keywords: how_do_they_get_away_with_this_?_?_?
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 18:28:23 GMT

An advertisement in the Jan/Feb issue of _American_Health_ magazine:

[at top is a picture of a pill, with a label "warning:  May cause drowsiness,
headache, nausea.  Do not drive.  If other symptoms occur discontinue use"].

	"The side effects of most medicines are enough to make you sick.

Ironic isn't it?  How the medication you take to feel better can often make you
feel worse.  It's for this reason that Nature's Way has developed Medicine
From Nature (tm), a line of natural homeopathic remedies that is free of side
effects - with specific formulas for women.  And all Medicine From Nature
remedies are formulated by renowned homeopathic expert Dana Ullman, M.P.H.  Now
when you take your medicine, the only effect you'll feel is relief."

[below this text are pictures of the boxes of their products; these boxes are
labeled "MENOPAUSE", "PMS", and "VAGINITIS", each with "HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE",
"THIRTY TABLETS", and "FOR WOMEN" underneath the main label.]

Sigh.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: Papal Infallibility [was Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up?]
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:33:52 GMT

In article <RICE.93Jan6091725@hpp-ipc-2.stanford.edu>, rice@sumex-aim.Stanford.EDU (James Rice) writes:

[quotes article on papal infallibility]

|> Although there is clearly a lot of discussion on this issue, I think
|> it is reasonable to conclude from this that the pronouncement is
|> retroactive and is woolily worded enough to allow it to cover almost
|> anything the pope says/does with the possible exception of kissing the
|> ground at airports.  It also gives the church a possible out in that
|> it allows them to say ~"he wasn't \em{really} talking about
|> faith/morals, he was just giving a personal opinion."  Maybe they
|> could even hint that he wasn't being a real xian.

No, I believe "ex cathedra" statements are clearly labelled as such, and are 
also quite rare.  RC teachings on contraception and priestly celibacy, for 
example, have not been elevated to the level of infallible dogma.  



-- 
Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu
	The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC, 
Stanford University, or the DOE.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:06:38 GMT

In article <fXxUyXh@quack.sac.ca.us>
dfox@quack.sac.ca.us (David Fox) writes:
 
>
>According to Catholic dogma, the Pope is given infallibility in matters
>of faith and morals.  Assuming this applies retroactively to all past
>Popes, the concept is ridiculous, and history proves it to be so. If
>you were able to resurrect a bunch of previous Popes, and put them all
>in a room, they'd certainly disagree with each other on matters of
>faith and morals.
>
 
In order to be fair, the Pope is only infallible when speaking as THE
authority of the church and directly referring to it. As fas as I know
it has been used to push through two dogmas only. Infallibility does not
apply to every action or word of the pope.
 
However, the chrurch is supposed to accumulate the good deeds of every
Catholic Christian and nothing is said about the evil deeds.
   Benedikt
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Reply-To: ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO)
Organization: HFSI, McLean VA.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:58:58 GMT

In article <C0D77L.7tH@ecf.toronto.edu> vanweer@ecf.toronto.edu (VANWEERDENBURG NICHOLAS JOHN) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.002733.5359@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>>>  Really?  I thought the catholic church is lead by the pope, who,
>>>according to catholic doctrine, is infallable.
>>
>>Well maybe you can enlighten me about Catholic Doctrine since I'm not
>>Catholic.  Which doctrine exactly are you talking about?  Which document
>
>I'm not up on the specifics, but I do know that as late as about 1979 the
>Vatican came out with a statement saying that the VATICAN AND POPE WERE
>INFALLIBLE AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC FOLLOWERS WERE NOT TO QUESTION THEM IN
>THE LEAST (IE. IT WAS A SIN TO DO SO ).  A big stink occured at about that time

This is a complete distortion, and the fact that the Vatican has
admitted error in the Gallelio case proves it.  Please do not
spread nonsense like this without checking the relevant documents
and doctrines.

>-Nick
>


-- 
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
HFS, Inc.		  VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive	 MS:601	   |    Voice:	(703) 827-6810
McLean, VA  22102	           |      FAX:	(703) 827-3729
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22182 alt.atheism:25354
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Date: 8 Jan 93 08:19:31 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan8.070846.9843@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
|> In article <1idq1bINNomj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> >
|> >To which I replied that this claim was misleading, since Christian
|> >churches certainly cooperated with Hitler and the Nazis.   I thought 
|> >you had been disagreeing with that.   Was I wrong?
|> >
|> >Are you instead saying that the main denominations *did* cooperate with
|> >Hitler?
|> >
|> 
|> I am saying that a Church's cooperation or lack of cooperation had
|> nothing to do with how Christian Hitler's values were.  The same
|> goes for his regime.

I'm not paying Mr Ata to say this.   He is saying this himself.  The
churches supported Hitler *independent* of his values.

Who else will they support on this basis?

|> And then I am asserting that his regime was not founded on Christian values.

Which is, I'm afraid, a meaningless statement.  As a non-Christian, I
don't pretend to know what "christian values" are.   And I certainly
could not discover them by asking Christians, since they all tell
different stories.

In fact, I've never yet met a Christian who would undertake to tell
me what "christian values" are, although, like Mr Ata, quite a number
of them think that referring to them as though they exist and have a 
definition, is quite OK.

My interest in Christians is in how they affect me, and the society
in which I live, and to that extent, my external view of "christian
values" is sinply 'what Christians do".

Christians do all kinds of things, claiming to be acting as Christians,
and some of those things are downright dangerous to my health.  I would
not, for example, feel comfortable living among the Christians of
Colorado just at this moment, but I expect that in a few years time
some future Mr Ata will be telling us not to worry, because the
Colorado folks just weren't acting according to "christian values"
back in 1993.

When churches support someone like Hitler, and then try to brush it
off later with "not our values", I have to conclude that they have
learned precisely nothing.

jon.
From: cummings@stein.u.washington.edu (Michael Cummings)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: "Satanic Ritual Abuse" in the media
Date: 9 Jan 1993 02:19:10 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

In <C0KCMz.Koo@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian) writes:

>>kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>>
>>>                                                  (Some of the
>>>psychotherapists claim that tens or even hundreds of thousands of
>>      /\ 
>>       Insert space here... 

>Why? the OED2 and Webster's Ninth New Collegiate spell it as I do.

	It was a witticism, not a spelling flame.  By writing "psycho
therapist" you are suggesting that the therapist is also a psycho, rather
than a psychotherapist.

-- 
Michael Cummings  NX7E	
cummings@u.washington.edu
"To be hit by Moriyama's fastball is an honor exceeded only by being
crushed under the wheels of the Imperial carriage." - _You Gotta Have Wa_
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: "Satanic Ritual Abuse" in the media
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 01:40:11 GMT

cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian) writes:

>kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>>                                                  (Some of the
>>psychotherapists claim that tens or even hundreds of thousands of
>      /\ 
>       Insert space here... 

Why? the OED2 and Webster's Ninth New Collegiate spell it as I do.

- Carl

p.s. Sorry, for the public defense of my spelling; but it is rare that
my spelling is defensable.
               ^defensible :-)

-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:49:33 GMT

In article <1ia8cnINNpeh@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> How can any of us have any confidence that episodes like cooperation
|> with the Nazis won't be repeated, when the church and its followers
|> spend their time trying to rationalise away what happened, instead
|> of saying frankly "Yes, we screwed up, and we're going to find out
|> why".

I don't know about the Roman Catholic church, but I believe the Lutheran 
church in (West) Germany did precisely that after the war.  I'll see if 
I have any references in my files.  

-- 
Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu
	The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC, 
Stanford University, or the DOE.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic