From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:52:07 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Sep11.174905.11245@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.165605.9014@usl.edu>, pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>...
>Your paraphrasing ability is most commendable. However, your perspective of
>history is not.

No.  Your grasp on reality, Harry, is tenuous here.

>Israel has *NEVER* been the aggressor in the Israeli-Arab
>disputes. 

Nonsense.  Without arguing about 1948 and 1967, I'll just mention 1957 
and 1982 (Israeli invasion of Lebanon).  In 1973 Egypt and Syria
attacked toliberate their territories.  There was no aggression in 1973,
no attempt to acquire new territories.  

>When Israel has launched attacks against Arab targets it has
>*ALWAYS* done so either in retaliation for past Arab terrorist activity, or
>(as in the case of the Six Day vistory) to insure a strategic advantage in an
>inevitable conflict.

Hogwash.  Expansionism and colonization ranked high among its motivations, 
and sadly it still does today.  Zionists, since Hertzl, make no secret 
about this. Ben-Gurion's conception was that "a Jewish state...will serve 
as an important and decisive stage in the realization of Zionism," but only 
a *stage*: the borders of the state "will not be fixed for eternity," 
but will expand either by agreement with the Arabs "or by some other 
way," once "we have force at our disposal" in a Jewish State.  His 
long-term vision included Jordan and beyond, sometimes even 
"the Land of Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates.

As early as 1938, Ben-Gurion had told a Zionist meeting: "I favor partition of
the country because when we become strong power after the establishment
of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of
Palestine."

Likud's platform includes the *East* bank of the Jordan river as part of
Israel.  Don't tell me that this is for defensive reasons too.

>In fact, Israel has traditionally gone to great pains in order to prevent as
>many civilian casualties as possible.

Tell that to the children of the intifada who are dying daily at the
hand of your heroic foces.   Tell that to the thousands of civilians
who have been dying in the villages and refugee camps in Lebanon as
a result of Israeli bombing.

>This is a historically proven and
>accurate fact. 

This is your pure, self-righteous, fantasy; history and facts speak 
otherwise.  Your assertions are simply myths.

>Since the earliest days of the Jewish liberation struggles
>against Britain, all Jewish revolutionaries tried to avoid civilian casualties
>if *AT ALL* possible. 

Tell that to the inhabitants of Deir Yassin and other villagers, old men
women and children, massacred in cold blood.  Read up on the tactics of
Irgun and the Stern Gang of thieves and thugs used to terrorize and 
kill civilians.  Recall that it was Yitzhak Shamir who, in an attempt to
justify the tactics of thugs like him, claimed in 1943 that "Neither Jewish 
ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat."

>This is still the policy of the IDF. Even in the Lebanon
>operation of 1982, Israel risked Jewish infantry lives in attacking terrorist
>positions (as opposed to air bombing the entire area) so as to avoid any
>innocent casualties.

Tell that to the 20,000 civilians who died and the other thousands who
were maimed as a result of Israeli use of cluster and incendiary bombs
on civilian areas during its invasion of Lebanon.  Even hospitals were 
bombed.

>
>In fact, your claim that Israel has ever attacked Arab civilian targets is
>outrageous. 

No.  The fact that you have the balls to deny it is what is profoundly
outrageous.  This sort of utter denial comes close to those twits who 
deny that the Holocaust has happened.  Take off your blinders and face
up to reality.

Enough said.

Waleed Muhanna
-=-
"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed
by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing
about them." -- George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism," 1945
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast