From: peter@Eng.Sun.COM (Peter Liu)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: Sun Micro System
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 10:47:46 GMT

In article pcli@uicadf.csl.uiuc.edu (Ping-Chung Li) writes
>In article <1992Apr16.3716.3716@Eng.Sun.COM> peter@Eng.Sun.COM (Peter Liu) writes:
>>A country is worth of loving only if
>>the country is established on the basis of justice and love.
>
>        When ROC was funded in 1911, her goal was indeed the above.
                  ~~~ ~~~~~~

    I suppose you meant "founded", right? :-)

    Then are you sure that ROC's goal IS still the above?
                                      ~~~~~~~~
    Are you sure that ROC's goal WILL still BE the above?
                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>>When a government consistently cheats its people, prevails unjust,
>>and commits crimes by promoting the belief of nationalism (or blind loyalty),
>>the country/nation under its ruling becomes a machine, a tool
>>for that crime committing government.
>
>
>       Then get rid of the government, it has nothing to do with the country.

Hi, Mr. Li: I recalled you. 
If my memory serves me right, you were once the CEO (Dson3 Gainn4 Shi4)
of Student Association (Ban1 Lan2 Hwei4) of Chien4-Kuo2 Senior High, right?

I totally understand country != government. 
However, a country is a POLITICAL STATE according to a very kind netter
who subjectively supposed I don't have a webster or Xwebster at hand.
A political state has its own political purposes.
NOT ALL political purposes are correct and worth of supporting.
I believe the proper idea shall be "the people of a country EMPLOY 
their government to maintain their country." 
However, the situation often gets reversed and gets out of people's control. 
A country sometimes just becomes the EXECUTION MACHINE/TOOL
of the government/ruling party. And this is the case I am talking about.
NAZI's German is the case. CCP's PRC is the case. KMT's ROC is the case, too.

When a government gets strong control over a country by prevailing nationalism,
it's NOT that easy to get rid of that government anymore.
NAZI's German is the case. KMT's ROC is the case, too.
When a country gets into this status(the execution machine of the government),
the process is HARDLY REVERSIBLE without terrible sacrifices of people
(bloody revolution, beaten in a war like NAZI German/Japan, ..., etc.).
In this situation, rendering loyalty/obedience/support to the country
is equivalent to rendering loyalty/obedience/support to the government.
Then these loyalty/obedience/support is actually pushing the country
to the tragedy end. For example, 
lots of German army officers don't like NAZI at all.
General Lon Meir(? spelling) with the nick name "the wolf in North Africa"
in WWII was one of these German army officers.
However, his genius commandership and his loyalty to German (not NAZI)
only resulted the extending of WWII and more sacrifices of German lives.

>>When a person from Mainland said
>>"I am proud of Chinese culture." or
>>"I am proud of being a Chinese (in ethical/non-political sense).",
>>there is no objection in my mind.
>>But when a person from Mainland said
>>"I am proud of People Republic of China."
>>"I am proud of the Chinese Communist Government/Party."
>>I feel the person is as guilty as Li-Peng.
>
>        Being proud of PRC and being proud of CCP are different. Many
>        mainlanders are proud of the former but hate the latter.
>        I don't think they are as guilty as Li Peng.

Even if a mainlander ONLY said "I am proud of People Republic of China.",
I suppose that person is still as guilty as Li Peng,
because the political purpose of PRC is not right
and the current status of PRC is the "execution machine" of CCP.

>        So, do you see the difference? If no, let me tell you a story.
>        11 years ago, there was an article on Jian4 Zhon1 Chin1 nia2. The
>        author mentioned "Loving one's country is not equal to loving one's
>        government." He got some verbal attack from one or two teachers
>        for reasons you know why. (Thanks to the freedom tradition of
>        the school, that edition was still issued. This kind of tradition
>        is always one reason I love Jian4 Zhon1.)
>        Now if you insist being proud of ROC = being proud of KMT, I
>        don't see any difference between you and those teachers, only
>        to the opposite extreme.
>Ping

I understood that article no less than you, Mr. Li.

Peter, another Chien4-Chon1-Ren2