HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:11:32 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Pledging ot the Flag..

Teresa,
I am not a JW, and I don't say the pledge to the flag either.  To me it
has nothing to do with allegiance to my country, it is just that I don't
want to make a *solemn promise* to a flag or to a country, but to God
and my husband 8-) only.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:10:43 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Forgiveness of Sins, by Priests?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Hutter" at Aug 27, 92 11:39 am

>Certainly they comprehend this, but I think that this is not all that
>these passages mean, i.e. that they do indeed - besides the confession
>to the offended one, which I take for granted - urge us to confess our
>sins to one another.
>
>>If I steal from you, I should confess it to you, seek your forgivness and
>>then also compensate for your loss. Scripture likewise says is you forgive
>>my sin then it is forgiven, but if you do not ,then it is not forgiven..
>
>You don't mean to say that if a brother won't forgive me then I have no
>forgiveness before God, do you?
>
Of course not, what I am saying is that if you do not forgive me, then
I am not forgiven as far as YOU are concerned. God may (and will) still
forgive me if I ask him..

>>I do not believe however that I need to confess my Sin committed against YOU
>>to a priest/pastor/elder. Its between you, me and God. Likewise if I sin
>>against God then its between Him and ME..
>
>O.K. I don't say that we  * need *  to confess to someone, but I'd like
>to ask why we don't want to do it. The answer might get us close to
>seeing why I think God wants us to do it. If I don't want to confess my
>sin to a brother (as I said, it doesn't have to be a priest/pastor/elder)
>then I think in 99% of the cases it comes from PRIDE! So why not take
>this exercise and kill our pride by confessing sin?
>
>Wolfgang <><
>

Well INOYB comes to mind (its none of your business).. I would not say
PRIDE was the major reason.. The majority of Sin that we occur is towards God,
and not our fellow brother (all not done in faith is sin according to
scripture) so the majority of my confession is towards God..

What irks me would be to see someone confess to man and then think that it
is enough, that there is no need to confess to God as well, that is clearly
wrong.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:36:04 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Jesse....

  Geez, dude... ok.
 So Maybe I'm wrong... I can be ya know ... :)
 God Bless!
 Theresa / "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:09:45 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      .... uh oh...

 HERE we go again, gang....
 Geez!
 Revelation... wow... what a book to try read!! :)
 All I know, is that the Lord allowed St. John to see some
 awesome sights concerning the Heavenly City itself.
 ... Streets of Gold, and Gates of Pearl????
 WOW!
 ... HUM......
 IF THAT don't change someone's mind about his spiritual
 status, I don't know what will...
 I'm not sayin' that is the basis for makin' a profession of
 Faith in Christ, I'm just thinkin' , "geez.... what a place
 to spend eternity..."
 May God Bless those who are studyin' the book...
 Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 20:18:33 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer request

Please pray for my brother-in-law, Ronald Pfuhl, who was taken to the
hospital with chest pains apparently caused by heart trouble, and
pray for his family as well.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:14:57 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: "Homophobic? Re-read your Bible"

Tom,

    Two wrongs don't make a right.  Homosexual relations are an abomination to
God.  Murder is sin.  Both are wrong.  Both are in the bible.  Alot of things
are in the bible.  There is no way you can justify homosexuality by showing
the sins committed against homosexuals in the name of the bible.  I could sin
and use my bible as a reason for it but that would not excuse my sin.


   Jesus told us to stay away from sin.  All of us.  His purpose on earth was
to pay for our sins and to take away the burden of a sinful nature in us.  If
we are trusting enough on him, there is no sin we cannot overcome.  One sin is
not excused by another.  People who commit sins against homosexuals are still
wrong. We should set a good example for others living in sin so that they can
be drawn to the Christian life and have a desire to know Christ.  We don't have
to accept the sin as okay just because we know about it and love them in spite
of it.  We can still love someone and not accept their lifestyle.  And we can
rebuke in the spirit of Christ too.  We need to pray more for guidance in these
matters.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:08:52 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3

Dear Memo ;

MY mistake ... Lon sent the post I alleged to you ... sorry.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:28:04 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian Youth

Thanks Bill,
That's a great idea..

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 11:14:19 PST
From:         FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Their Lady of Cold Springs

> Second, I heard on National People's Radio (NPR) this morning that the people
> in Cold Springs, KY saw an apparition. This time it was both what they
 imagined
> to be Mary and Jesus. I have spent time in Cold Springs with relatives, so
> this report was of interest to me. Evidently, someone knew ahead of time that
> the "spirits" were coming. They had the National Guard, city and state police
> on hand for security. The local Catholic Church (sic) piped their "prayer"
> service outside to the thousands in the parking lot.
>
> "They have Moses and the prophets...."
>
> Tom Brewer


     Tom --

     Whether you like it or not people are human.  Most of us
need a sign from God to reassure us that He is still with us.
They'll look in trees for Him, in Elvis and in Jimmy Swaggert.  They
can be misled and many times are, all we can do for these folk is
pray, not ridicule.

     I've said it before to you:  if you have nothing constructive to
contribute to this issue then don't say anything.  You hurt more than
you heal and if I'm not mistaken this is a very un-Christian-like
thing to do.

     Frank
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:47:43 PST
From:         FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Catholics Being Born Again

> At what point in the Baptism to confirmation period,does a Catholic
> become Born Again. I am referring to Jesus and Nicodemus (John 3:3)
> conversation.



     I'm not Marty.  Just thought I'd throw this out.  As far as I
was taught we Catholics are "Born Again" at Baptism not somewhere
between Baptism and Confirmation.  A Priest from a parish
I once belonged to once told me that each time we take the Eucharist
we are "Born Again."

     Marty -- am I wrong in thinking we are "born Again" at Baptism?

     Frank
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:37:15 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: The Setting

Bush has already apologized many times for raising taxes and he has admitted
that it was a mistake and that he was making a deal (so to speak) with
congress
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:42:00 CST
From:         JULIA 204 <JRS1488@TAMVENUS.BITNET>
Subject:      college roommates

I just thought I'd share with you my experience--I'm a soph at Texas A&M.
Last fall I got a roommate who was pretty bad.  My parents and I walked
in on her and her boyfriend in bed one afternoon, and after that, things
were really tense.  I tried to get a different room, but was not able to.
I had to stay with her the entire fall semester.  At the time, I thought
I was going to drop out of school, but, now I realize that the whole
time, the situation was helping me to not only rely on Christ to pull
me through, but I also believe that Christ used me to influence her.
        I will be praying for you and your daughter--I know that God
will put her where He can use her best!!
In His Love,
Julia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:52:00 EST
From:         WKJ <JAMES@XAVIER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary and sinlessness

Marty,

Also, Moses turned aside to behold the sight of a bush burning but not
burning up.

Flaming but not consumed by the flames. Maybe this could be a motto for the
Christia List !

Biting one another, but not being consumed by one another.

This is not an accusation directed at any one b.t.w.; it is merely the "next"
in an unbroken succession of feeble attempts at humor by one

WKJ=Bill James
James@Xavier.bitnet
Username: Does good like Tylenol
Password: A merry heart
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 22:16:28 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Feelings!

Bob Weiss writes (I summarize): "When I was confirmed, I expected to
feel very different afterwards, and found to my disappointment that
I didn't.  I conclude that Confirmation is not all that it is said
to be. Either the bishop was a fraud, or the whole idea of
Confirmation is a mistake."

Suppose that someone says: "I went before a judge last month, and
was made a citizen of the United States. I expected that being an
American citizen would somehow make me feel different. But I don't
feel particularly different somehow. I feel like the same person I
was a year ago. Sure, I care what happens to this country. But I
cared a year ago. I guess it proves that there is really no such
thing as citizenship -- or else that the judge was an unfit judge.
Maybe if I arrange to appear again before a different judge...."

Consider someone who hears the message of the Gospel and accepts it.
He repents of his sins, asks God for forgiveness, accepts Jesus as
his savior, and then says, "I am troubled by the fact that I don't
feel anything. I expected this to be an overwhelming emotional
experience. It isn't. I am wondering whether I really am forgiven
after all."

Consider the man who has a large mortgage on his farm, and cannot
pay it. He receives a letter from the bank, saying, "A wealthy man
has heard of your difficulties, and has paid off your mortgage.  You
now own your farm free and clear, and are completely out of debt.
We enclose your cancelled mortage papers. Congratulations!" Suppose
the man says, "But I don't feel out of debt."

Suppose that a couple have been living together for a while, and are
then persuaded that they ought to get married. They do so, and then
one of them says: "All our Christian friends told us that marriage
was important, and was a very different thing from simply being an
item. But I don't feel any different. I guess this proves that our
friends were wrong, and that it doesn't really matter whether you
are married or just sharing a bed."

Bob speaks of having had, about four years ago, an overwhelming
emotional experience of the love of God. Fine. I am happy for him. I
am also happy for any married man who has had an ovewhelming feeling
of "what an absolutely wonderful woman my wife is! How fortunate I
am to be married to her!  Just looking at her makes me dizzy!" But I
don't think that they are more truly married than others.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:38:31 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Matthew 24
              2 Sep 1992 09:59:20 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

Dear Memo ;

Just a short installment here.
I hope to honestly deal with your other queries in the near future.
Nevertheless, when the disciples ask about the desolution of the
Temple, Christ spoke of what was about to occur within their lifetime
since His warning was contextually to them, NOT to us.
He told THEM "Now, I have told YOU ahead of time."
Jesus then says that "this in fulfillment of what was prophesied by Daniel
the prophet."
The event was not immediately imminent, but it was told to the disciples,
clearly that THAT "... generation will not pass away until all of these things
have been accomplished."




Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:11:16 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 9/4

"The Father loves me because I give my life.  I give my life so that I can take
it back again.  No one takes it away from me.  I give my own life freely.  I
have the right to give my life, and I have the right to take it back.  This is
what my Father commanded me to do" (John 10:17,18).

"Jesus gave himself to pay for the sins of all people.  Jesus is proof that God
wants all people to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:6).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Established Authorities
Organization: Glassboro State College (Soon To Be Rowan, Maybe)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 02:53:54 GMT


Steve Creps writes:

> [T]o think that you are able to properly interpret the entire Bible on your
> own, without need of the authorities Christ Himself set up, reeks of Pride.
> The proof that it just doesn't work that way is evident from the multitude
> of differing interpretations coming from those of you who think that way.
> Or I suppose, "_They_ don't have the Holy Spirit to guide them, but _I_ do!"
> Strange, that's what _They_ tell me too.

Relying on the "authorities Christ Himself set up" doesn't work either.  As
proof, I offer the Great Schism.  Depending on your perspective:

   a) Rome taught infallibly and the Eastern churches rebelled.
or
   b) Rome formed the first Protestant denomination by going into heresy
      when they changed the Nicene-Constantinople Creed.

Neither Rome nor Constantinople can claim to be older than the other; each
has equally valid claims to Apostolic Succession (if you believe in it, which
I don't).  However, the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox disagree
about more than a few things.  In short, each side says:

	"_They_ don't have the Holy Spirit to guide them, but _I_ do!"
or
	"_They_ aren't the group founded by Christ, we are!"


I agree that the Bible cannot be interpreted "in a vacuum", because the groups
that do so disagree about many things.  But relying on the history of the
church doesn't fix the problem, because the groups which do that ALSO disagree
about many things.  If there was just ONE "one true church from antiquity in
unbroken succession", it might be possible to make a sensible argument -- but
there are at least two.%
 --
% Or three, depending on what one makes of Anglican Orders.  Personally, I
  think Leo XIII was out to lunch with _Apostolicae curae_; based on the
  evidence and arguments presented, if Rome can claim unbroken succession,
  so can Canterbury.  Not that anybody asked me...  8-)
 --


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Jesus never did anything worth ridiculing, unlike his followers."
                                                   -- Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:17:01 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      William Bennett

Mr. Bennett is featured on Focus on the Family today, tomorrow,
and Friday.  In case anyone is interested.

Carol Nemec
YA67@FERRIS
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:54:12 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Wisdom from Proverbs

These things also belong to the wise:

It is not good to show partiality in judgment.
He who says to the wicked, "You are righteous,"
Him the people will curse;
Nations will abhor him.
But those who rebuke the wicked will have
  delight,
And a good blessing will come upon them.
                                        --Prov. 24:23-25

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:13:17 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Matthew 24

Thanks, Lon.

I mean, I think Daniel and Jesus both refered to the statue of Cesar that
was ordered to be put in the Temple. Am I wrong ?

Shalom,
Memo.
PS Nothing to do with the second Parusia.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:31:08 -0500
From:         Mark <MWALDEN@MACALSTR.BITNET>
Subject:      Cameroon

Hi!  A question for all you out there:  I'm going to be spending the next four
to five months in Cameroon on a study abroad program, part of which will be an
independent project studying the Protestant church in Cameroon, particularly
how it fits in with the rest of society.  I may also try to arrange a one-month
or so internship at the end of my program.  Does anyone have any knowledge of
churches or organizations in Cameroon I might be able to contact?
Also, it's been fun and informative reading everyone's contributions to
Christia - I just joined a few weeks ago.  I look forward to coming back to it!
Thanks - peace in Christ,       Mark Walden
                                mwalden@macalstr.edu
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:58:36 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: State Fair
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
              31 Aug 1992 00:52:56 EDT from <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

On Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:52:56 EDT Angela Zimmerman said:
<stuff deleted>

>doors on it saying "three things God CANNOT do".  That's how I started
>off my discussion with him.  I asked if saying that God COULDN'T do
>something was putting limitations on a supposedly limitless God.  The
>three things were something like God cannot lie, God cannot change, and
>God cannot accept anyone into heaven who does not go through Christ.
>What does everyone here think about those?  Is that putting limitations
>on God?  Last year, the display was three things that God does not
>know, but I don't remember at the moment what those were.

Angela, since the three limitations are based on the attributes of God,
I would say that they are accurate.  I would say further that an under-
standing of God's unchangeability is fundamental to understanding the
other two points.  God's unchangeability is tied to two of His attributes:
the fact that He is perfect, and the fact that He is satisfied with Him-
self (in human terms, this second sounds kind of silly, but think of it
in terms of it being applied to God).  If God is perfect, then He has no
need to change, and if He satisfied with Himself, then He has no desire
to change.

God cannot lie because it is His unchanging nature to be truthful.  God
cannot accept anyone into heaven except through Jesus because God is
holy, and the requirements of His holiness must be fulfilled.  The sacri-
ficial death of Jesus is the sole means which God has provided for ful-
the requirements demanded by His holiness.  The same statement can be made
with regard to the requirements of God's justice being fulfilled.  One
would also, of course, have to accept God's evaluation of the human con-
dition as sinful in order for the above explanation to make sense.

Hope this helps . . .

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:25:10 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>God's warnings

Dan wrote: "They had no reason to believe in Israel's God, they were never
presented with information about Him."

St. Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, wrote: "God shows his anger because
everything that may be known about God has been made clear ... since the
beginning of the world those things have been easy to understand.  They are
made clear by what God has made.  So people have no excuse for the bad things
they do ... God judges all people in the same way ... This is true even though
they do not have the law.  They show that in their hearts they know what is
right and wrong ... And they also show this by the way they feel about right
and wrong ... IS GOD ONLY THE GOD OF THE JEWS?" (Romans 1-3 excerpts).

An acquaintance with the teachings of other religions will further substantiate
this truth.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo