HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Argic/Mutlu&Co - not a monopoly.
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:40:25 GMT
Organization: Computer Resources International A/S

It's finally known why did Mutlu pass the job to Argic:

Mutlu has finally found a girlfriend who does not chase him out with the
broomstick when he starts saying "You know, my dear, that 2.5 million
turks..." - so that he has no more time to spare for Usenet littering...

:-)

Long Haired Nick
From: jason@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jason Merrill)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,talk.politics.cis
Subject: Re: Back to actual politics
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:50:24 GMT
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711

In article <1992Nov14.185753.17446@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>	That's bullshit: Armenia was the republic most
>	reluctant of all to secede

Nonsense.  When Gorbachev held a nationwide referendum on March 17, 1991 to
determine the future of the USSR, Armenia, Georgia, Moldova, and the Baltic
states all voted to secede from the union, so that Yeltsin's 9+1 treaty
didn't include them.

>	If not the Eltsin's trick to overthrow Gorbi
>	(he made agreement with other republics that USSR 
>	is no more) I am pretty sure that they would be still 
>	in USSR (and probably only Russia else :).

Yeltsin's agreement with the leaders of Russia, the Ukraine, Byelorussia,
and Kazakhstan was only to the effect that the four of them would form a
new union regardless of what Gorbachev did.  Note that Armenia was not part
of this agreement.  Furthermore, this agreement led to the drafting of the
9+1 treaty on April 23, 1991.  This treaty gave the individual republics
much more power, and was one of the primary causes of the August putsch,
but maintained the USSR nonetheless.  It was only because of the coup
attempt that the USSR dissolved completely so soon.

(Source:  Smith, Hedrick.  The New Russians.  New York: Avon Books, 1991.
pp. 612-615)

--
Jason Merrill
jason@jarthur.claremont.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: vzhivov@alfred.carleton.ca (Vladimir Zhivov)
Subject: Re: back to actual politics
Keywords: collapse of democracy, Russia, Lithuania
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:28:44 GMT

          It's really interesting to observe visitors to former Soviet
republics, especially when they are returning "home". Because I'm from
Kiev and went there this summer I can really only speak about the
Ukrainian experience (I'm Russian myself); it seems to me that these
expatriates are far more nationalistic and Ukranian than the people
who actually live there. For instance, no one in Kiev speaks
Ukrainian. It's rather sad to see people who don't know anything about
what's going on in the former Soviet states spreading stories on this
side of the ocean and then going over and "advising" the peole on the
spot. Well, that's my rather incoherent (it's late here) commentary.
          The woman who spent time in Lithuania brought up a key point
- the people over there don't give a damn about democracy (and
Lithuania is one of the more Westernized republics). Freedom and
hunger are a dangerous mix, especially when there is a tradition of
violence and authoritarianism (look up Hobbes on "...nasty, brutish,
and short...").
          By the way can someone post some info on Kaliningrad
(formerly Koeningsberg - sorry about the spelling). The Russians, I
think, are determined to hold on to it for strategic, military, and
prestige reasons. I also heard Germans were making some noise about
it. Any usefull information would be appreciated. 

                                                  Vladimir
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko)
Subject: Re: Narva in the inter-war period
Organization: Boston KGB office
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:12:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.091434.12737@cs.chalmers.se> tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>
>                         ....................
>
>.... why did Russia take areas in the northeast and southeast, but not
>in the middle? Answer: the area in the middle consists of a big lake
>(called Peipsi).
>        ^^^^^^
Yea, right; Russians prefer Coke

>Regards,
>	Tanel Tammet
Best Wishes,
        Michael
From: ee_d375@CERES.KING.AC.UK
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: (none)
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:18:52 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic and His Posts
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Kingston University
Thanks!!!
  Boris.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko)
Subject: Re: Signal/noise ratio in t.p.s.
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:27:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.005023.17682@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>43 articles from Mutlu, one from Ryyti, 6 with responses on Mutlu
>and about 15 which I read...
>The world is going to end.
>
>I dream about Armenian terrorists. I know they are a myth,
>but if there is one remaining, please give me a call.
>I hope very much that one day you will find this invulnerable
>AI idiot and kill him once and for all. Do you need something?
>A conspiratory flat, physical support, donation? I will 
>give you *everything* to atone myself on this creature!
>
>Misha.

Despite my unfriendly attitude toward fyl... phyl... ( Tfu, tchort !) 
philology, I'd admit that I've never read more reasonable posting. 
Hey, Armenian terrorists ! You've got one more supporter. Details 
by mail.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: News/Haberler/Armenian TV reports
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 17:53:50 GMT

Express-compact news from Armenia. Reported by Armenian TV, 11/9/92.


FIRST 400 TONS OF FLOUR ARRIVE FROM TURKEY - TURKISH OPPOSITION
ATTEMPTS TO VOTE UNCONFIDENCE TO DEMIREL OVER HIS AGREEMENT TO
SUPPLY FLOUR TO ARMENIA - AIRLIFT FROM THE US AND RUSSIA UNDER WAY -
AZERI LEADERS "TIRED OF WAR", WILLING TO ACCEPT UN OBSERVERS IN KARABAKH -
CHAIRMAN OF KARABAKH PETROSIAN IN FRANCE - FIGHTING CONTINUES IN KARABAKH
AND ON THE ARMENIAN-AZERI FRONTIERES.


First 400 tons of flour arrived to Armenia from Turkey today. 500 more are
on the way. Up to 1000 tons to arrive daily from Turkey, which is Republic's
daily need.

Turkish opposition attempted to vote unconfidence to Demirel for his approval
of the flour transportation to Armenia. The Foreign Minister Hikmet
Chetin backed the Prime Minister. The Parliament voted 237 votes to the favor
of Demirel`s decision.

237 tons are to be air-lifted from the US, 40 tons per one flight are
air-lifted from Southern Russia, Krasnodar, by Il-75 planes, similar
agreements with France and Germany reached. The price of 1kg of bread
in Yerevan ranges from 18 to 35 roubles.

Russian Ambassador to Armenia, Vladimir Stupishin, arrived in Yerevan today 
with his wife. The Ambassador was greated in the airport by the Deputy
Foreign Minister of Armenia Arman Navasardian and other officials.

Fighting in Karabakh and in the border regions continues. The Armenian
forces are reported to have shot down two Mig-25 planes and two helicopters
of the adversary. Battles are going on for the villages of Arajashen and Edilu
of the Mardakert region of Karabakh. The Lachin humanitarian corridor is under
continuous shelling, along with the border regions of Taush, Krasnoselsk,
Kapan, Meghri and others.

The Chairman of Karabakh Petrosian has responded positively to the
appeal of the UN on deploying UN observers in the region. The appeal
has received ambiguous reaction in Baku, however the Azeri President
Elchibey said he would welcome such an initiative. The Azeri President
and the representative of the Defense Ministry Leyla Yusupova
said that "Azerbaijan is tired of war". Their previous statements
about successfully ending the war by this winter are not repeated any more.

The Karabakh Chairman Petrosian has visited France. In his meetings
with French officials a number of issues were discussed, including the
humanitarian help to Karabakh and the political solution to the crisis.
In Petrosian' words, France will accept any solution to the conflict
that would be acceptable for Karabakh and Azerbaijan.

/Recorded on November 17, at Stanford University, through SCOLA channel/
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: ALKSNIS threats the BALTIC states
Date: 19 Nov 92 12:46:42 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

Quoting e-mail (Baltlist):
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Baltic Independent of November 6-12 carried several relevant items.
> 
> In a separate report in the BI, bylined Lisa Trei, the so-called Black
> Colonel gave some blood-curdling predictions. Colonel Alksnis
> predicted that baltics independence would last five or ten
> years, but would fail step by step. "That is the mild scenario.
> The tough scenario is similar to what happened in the
> Trans-Dniestr. As soon as the first shot is fired in Estonia Russia
> will respond.... the nationalist radicals in Estonia are doing
> everything possible to ensure that the shooting will begin. We
> are waiting for the minute when the situation will explode. It
> doesn't need any stirring up. Its already hot.
> 
> We are optimistic that the future independence of Estonia will fail
> because it is 90 percent tied to the centre. The existing
> powers hope that they can still save the economy with bilateral
> relations with other countries but that is an illusion.. the
> level of integration will just force the existing powers
> to leave and others to take their place..."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

sent with no comment by
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: ALKSNIS threats the BALTIC states
Date: 22 Nov 92 11:16:56 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Tapani Hietnaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) relays:
>> As soon as the first shot is fired in Estonia Russia
>> will respond.... the nationalist radicals in Estonia are doing
>> everything possible to ensure that the shooting will begin. We
>> are waiting for the minute when the situation will explode. It
>> doesn't need any stirring up. Its already hot.

Alas for Alksnis, Vinzuyk and their ilk, and luckily for the rest
of us, the Russian leaders in Narva seems to be very moderate and
least of all interested in a "solution" which includes violence.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: verbit@cauchy.mit.edu (Mikahil Verbitski)
Subject: Re: Narva in the inter-war period
Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 23:49:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.120612.2713@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@brauer.harvard.edu) writes:

>>Dear Erland, you are not exactly right. The problem with Narva
>>is that this city is almost on the border, and on the other
>>side of the border there is another city, Ivangorod.

>And to which country did Ivangorod belong in the inter-war
>period?

	To Russia, I guess. Can someone confirm it?
>> If you consider those
>>two cities together, then you'll see that the demography
>>sitiation did not change much.


>If there were only 7-8000 Russians in Narva in 1925 of a total
>of 26.000, and the demography is the same in Narva + Ivangorod,
>and today there are 97% Russians in Narva we can draw the conclusion
>that there were 400.000 Russians living in Ivangorod at the time.
>Doesn't seem bloodly likely, does it?

	Yes, you are right. Ivangorod was always of smaller
	size than Narva. I never meant literally that the
	situation did not change; I wanted to point out
	that there were reasons beyond political ones:
	a natural geography of the place. Just like
	some places in California are becoming Mexican-
	dominated, Narva become de-facto Russian city
	because it was too near to mainland and Estonia
	was always richer than Russia and more liberal 
	politically. If you opened the border to Poland
	or Yugoslavia, there appeared Russian cities
	as well.

	Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ebeeler@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Emily Beeler)
Subject: back to actual politics
Keywords: collapse of democracy, Russia, Lithuania
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:51:51 GMT

     I am not a political science expert, but after
having spent last year teaching English in Lithuania, I have become (like
many others) a post-soviet political junkie.  The above quote really
caught my eye because I agree with it (eessentially).  Certainly
Lithuania's situation is different than Russia's, but the same post-
Soviet questions hold.  Not only is either region economically
or politically prepared for "total" democracy, but culturally as well.

     Some more memorable quotes from students of mine include, "Freedom
of speech is all well and good for the United States, but it is
dangerous here.  We cannot let the Communists speak."
     Once, in order to end an emotional discussion about anti-Semitism
and racism, I gave an argument I thought was unfair in that it couldn't
be contested: "Well, my arguments spring from my upbringing, in which I
learned that one of the most important things in life is to live
peacably with others and to try to understand them."
     The answer:"You have to think that way because you live in the
United States."
     I am torn and riveted by Lithuania and the post-Soviet area.  I
hated and was intensely frustrated by some attitudes I faced there, but I
was also amazed by Lithuanian strength of character and their intense
generosity in the face of poverty.  Will Lithuania become a Catholic
totalitarian state as Poland seems to be doing?  Will it "turn back"
to communism?  Will it recover from the intense nationalism that
served it so well in the fight for independence?
     Another question (I realize I am jumping about and apologize for
it):  What is the role of those from "democracies" visiting post-
soviet republics.  Ultimately I went for my own sake: to learn and watch.
My role was that of English teacher.  But the longer I stayed, the
more I wondered about whether I had a responsibilty to, politely, but
firmly and repeatedly express my views on racism, anti-Semitism, and
strong nationalism (against...). If only to expose them to an attitude
with which much of the world agrees.
     My overall experience has made me love Lithuania, and my frustrations
about Lithuania have made me obsessed.
     Overall, Lithuania needs to take reform more slowly (as does Russia).
Lithuania has taken a step to that effect in voting the Lithuanian
Democratic Party into power (friends there wrote to me and said it is
just that, and not a step backwards).
     I would love to hear about other people's personal experience with
this situation (attitudes concerning
people from "democracies" visiting the post-Soviet
republics), both from those that have visited and those that have
been hosts.
     Thanks for the screen-space.  Emily
From: libkind@hdlite.enet.dec.com (Sam Libkind)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Narva in the inter-war period
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:01:00 GMT
Reply-To: libkind@hdlite.enet.dec.com (Sam Libkind)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Question to Tanel Tammet:

You seems to be knowledgable on the Estonia - Rusian border issue, it's why I am asking this question.

I spent many summers in my teens in Pechory (Petseri), the area which used to belong to Estonia (Between two World Wars).

Is there a territorial dispute in regard of that territory?

Sam.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: vzhivov@alfred.carleton.ca (Vladimir Zhivov)
Subject: Re: Serdechnye zametki
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 05:46:55 GMT

In <By1GFt.Hvq.1@cs.cmu.edu> smir+@CS.CMU.EDU (Yury Smirnov) writes:

>	Chto-to nash Serdeshny poslednee vremya udesyateril svoi tsitatny ponos.
>Ego "Agric"ultural zametki ne imeyut nikakoi svyazi s okruzhayuschim mirom.
>Esli on takoi poliglot i nakopil tsitat na god vperyed, to prichem tut 
>talk.politics.soviet ? Ya davno podozreval, chto territoriya xSU ispol'zuetsya
>vysshimi instantsiyami dlya razlichnogo roda eksperimentov - to s krestonostsami
>srazhaisya, to mongolo-tataram protivodeistvui, a to i vovse revolyutsiyu zadumali
>obtyapat'. Seichas vrode by i na popyatnuyu, da narod uzh ne tot.
>A tut esche odin iz vyisokih instantsii na nashu golovu - Mudlom by on podavilsya.
>Chto-to, navernoe, est' prityagatel'noe v tom raiskom ugolke.

>Kstati, neskol'ko let nazad vyidvinuli teoriyu, chto geopoliticheskaya situatsiya
>vo mnogom opredelyaet ekonomiku i soznaniye lyudei. I eta massovo neispravimaya
>russkaya len' ot eye rodimoi, geografii i proistekaet. Etakii Aziato-Evropeisky
>uklad s pretenziei na sverhnechto i grustnyimi realiyami. Na moih glazah ( v pere-
>nosnom smyisle ) deyatel'nyie amerikantsyi za 2-3 mesyatsa prevraschalis' v
>pokornyih vlachitelei sud'byi ili ( v luchshem sluchae ) upotreblyali ostatok
>svoei energii na skoreischee vozvraschenie. Mozhet nam nashemu Serdeshnomu
>den'zhat na "1-way ticket" sobrat', on tam poostyinet ? Gotov vzyat' org. rabotu
>na sebya. A, kstati, nikto ne probyival emy napryamik e-mail poslat' ?
>V lyubvi, naprimer, priznat'sya. On chto i na eto genotzidom otvechat' budet ?

>   Yury

Yura, pochemu po russki? Argicu probovali possylat' e-mail, no eta
skotina ne shlet so svoei machyny, tak chto do nego naverno
nevozmozhno dobrat'sya. Mne ego "ponos" nadoyel, tak chto ya bolshe ne
prinimayu ego udobreniya.
                                                  Vladimir
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: RUSSIANS consider ESTONIANS hostile
Date: 22 Nov 92 17:21:20 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

A positive feature in the Estonian politics:

> CSCE HUMAN RIGHTS TEAM TO ESTONIA. An international team of
> experts sponsored by the CSCE will visit Estonia early next month
> to investigate Russian allegations of human rights violations
> there.  An RFE/RL correspondent in Warsaw reports that the visit
> was announced on 16 November during a CSCE symposium. Ever since
> last June, when Russia began linking alleged human rights abuses
> in the Baltic to maintained troop presence, Estonia has repeatedly
> asked the CSCE and other international organizations to send in
> teams to monitor the situation. (Riina Kionka, RFE/RL, Inc.)

Now, we should get the neutral observes to study the situation.
It's just great: Estonia has nothing to conceal!

On the contrary, this kind of monitoring is crucial to the Estonians, 
because, as the Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty reports:

> RUSSIANS THINK BALTS ARE HOSTILE, SAYS POLL.  A recent poll of
> leading Russian opinion makers shows the three Baltic States at
> the top of a list of foreign countries regarded as being hostile
> to Russia.  According to an October poll conducted by the Russian
> Department of Public Opinion Research among parliamentarians,
> party and military leaders, and other influential persons, some
> 70% of the respondents named Estonia as being the country most
> hostile to Russia, followed by 62% for Latvia and 58% for
> Lithuania. The countries regarded most friendly toward Russia
> included Kazakhstan (86% of the respondents), Germany (55%) and
> the US (44%). Only 5% of those questioned considered Estonia to be
> either "a friendly country" or "Russia's ally." BNS, citing
> Interfax, reported the results of the survey, released on 16
> November at the Russian Foreign Ministry's Council for Foreign
> Policy meeting held that day in Moscow. (Riina Kionka, RFE/RL,
> Inc.)

This is a fact: Russians ARE afraid of Estonia in some odd way 
- a lilliput nation that amounts about one million Estonians...

And, please, place this against the backround that there is NO RECORD OF
ETHNIC VIOLENCE against Russians in nowadays Estonia! 

Most odd, don't you think?

And, one should not forget: it is also the other way around. During
the so-called Baltic crackdown in the beginning of 1991 about a dozen
Lithuanians were killed by Soviet troops and about half a dozen Latvians
by OMON. No Estonian got shot or was run over by a Soviet tank.

Have you ever wondered, why?

asks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: GOOD NEWS for change
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 21:07:22 GMT

Russian TV News. November 20.

The Deputy of the Russian Parliament Bobulin proposed to put the
question of President`s resignation on the agenda. The Parliament voted
against such a proposal.

The Russian Parliament passed a legislature allowing for the
sale of the private land property, possibly - through the auctions.

The situation in Chechnia-Ingushetia shows signs of stabilization.
The Russian troops were brought to a state of military alert
yesterday, however today some contacts between both sides were taking place.
A humanitarian convoy passed through the Osetian roads where the barricades
were dismantled.

-----------------------

The anchorwoman commented on the decisions of the Russian Parliament
as a sign that the Parliament wants to meet the President with an "open hand"
in December, avoiding confrontation and seeking national consent.

------------------------

My comment: the act on private sale of land property also points in that 
direction. The rejection of Bobulin`s proposal shows that the majority
in the Parliament do not want direct head-on confrontation.
This news is very encouraging, let us all hope that the Russia will go through
December crisis successfully.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Date: 22 Nov 92 11:14:26 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

John.Slatter@durham.ac.uk writes:
>As to the language tests, I was told when in Tallinn this August that 
>they are composed in such a way that many Estonians could not pass them.

Who told you? Estonians? Russians? Did you meet anyone who had tried
the tests, but failed?

The way the citizenship law works it is very unlikely that anyone 
has tried these tests yet. The law requires two years of residency
before you can apply, and then there is a one year waiting period
under which you must pass the langauge test. The two years of
residency is counted not from arrival but from a "day zero" in
March 1990. Thus, it will take some more time until we see what
the language test is worth.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: georglin@leland.Stanford.EDU (george lin)
Subject: let's see
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 06:49:11 GMT

If this group's villain is indeed a machine that looks for keywords, let us
try some misspellings in a laughably inflammatory posting to see if it no-
tices this.

The tircs are the root of all evil.  They are butchers and killers.  Their
idea of human rights is the right to exterminate a minority.  Any barnyard
animal is morally and intellectually superior to the foul ethnic brethren
of messrs. mydlo and arjac.  

	just checking,

	a curious soul
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet