HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wilf@niksula.hut.fi (Johan W. Wikman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:43:12
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
NNTP-Posting-Host: daredevil.cs.hut.fi
In-reply-to: ryyti@jyu.fi's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:58:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.075847.4860@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

[...]
I realize you were trying to be funny and that I probably will cause
yet another idiotic thread,

>  The danger is the 5th colonna of Finlandswedes. What should we do with them?
>  They have even an own army unit, inside Finland. It may be dangerous in the
>  future.

but could elaborate a little bit about this opinion of yours.

>  tervised,
>  jarmo ryyti

Johan Wikman
--
wilf@niksula.cs.hut.fi
Johan Wikman

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: Re: How Finns look at the Swedes / suecophobia
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:21:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.115328.21750@eua.ericsson.se> Fredrik ?stman,
euafri@eua.ericsson.se writes:
>That the state doles out the citizens' money to groups is not enough to
>make people actually racist, chauvinist, socialist, fennophobe or
>suecophobe.

Fully agree. My point was to introduce the Finnish policy and some
opinions
that sometimes make messiers Jarmo Ryyti and T. Hietaniemi react. In my
per-
sonal opinion it is NOT too much asked to fund Swedish culture and
language as
much as nowadays. It is the political WILL of parliament - 8 MPs of the
Swedish
People's Party, one Alander and 191 Finnish-speaking Finns.

- Olli-Jukka -
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Taxonomics: Nordic, Baltic, etc.
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:18:20 GMT

In article <hberg.276@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu 
(Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> The (seemingly) eternal question of whether X is a Y'ic country/language/
> whatever has again arisen in the context of the proposed Baltic conference.  
> As in previous (and numerous) discussions on this topic, terms have been 
> tossed around without any attempt to define what theie meaning might be - 
> or, indeed, if they are meaningful at all.


Personally, I think this is a real problem that has been caused by
the collapse of the Iron curtain: our identities are perplexed - once again.


> So what do 'Nordic' and 'Baltic" mean?  It certainly doesn't make any sense 
> to me to call Finnish a Nordic language - Nordic is not a linguistic 
> category!  If Nordic is a geographic or geo-political category, does it make 
> sense to classify languages in such terms? 


Of course, we could have different definions of "Nordic". I find it
natural to call Finnish, my mother's tongue, Nordic. I make the
distinction Scandinavian/Nordic. Finnish is definitely not a Scandinavian
language, but a Baltic-Finnic language (as Estonian and Karelian).

In the Nordic countries we have even the Nordic language convention
or what should one call it (Nordiska spraakkonvention) that covers
even the Samish and Finnish languages (which, according this definition,
are Nordic languages, languages spoken in Nordic countries).


> So is Estonia a Nordic country?  


I think this is a good question: and is Finland a Nordic country?
Apparently yes, but according to which criteria? The Estonian
republic wanted to join to the Nordic council, but the Scandinavian
Nordic leaders opposed the motion with arguments that might
exclude even Finland from Norden!

Estonia has made it's decision: it surely wants to become
a Nordic country. Finns should support the sincere wishes of
their twin nation, according to my opinion.



> Is Germany a Baltic country?


Only the Northern Germany is situated on the coast of Baltic sea.


> There can't 
> be any meaningful attempts to answer these questions unless we first define 
> out terms.  And that might not be easy.  What do you mean by Estonia?  A 
> particular piece of land?  A culture?  And what criteria would one apply to 
> determine if someting is Nordic or not?


Estonia is an independed republic and a member of the United Nations.

 
> Personally, I despair at finding answers to these questions;  all the 
> categories are meaningless, in any objective sense, I'm afraid.


The definitions should not be OBJECTIVE: they should consider
the identities of the subjects involved in these definitions.

Nordic denotes to me some kind of togetherness, a common identity
that Estonia and Finland share. Please, take a look to Gustaf II Adolf
statues in Turku/Aabo and Tartu/Dorpat!


with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dementia spreading in Social Democratic Party
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:59:58
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiuhti.tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: ryyti@jyu.fi's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 07:57:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.075707.7393@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

> Heikki T. Suopanki (suopanki@stekt2.oulu.fi) wrote:
> : >>>>> On 15 Dec 92 00:44:10, tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist) said:
> : 
> : ryyti> Comrade (*) U.Sundquist is an upper class finlandswede 
> : 
> : another example of Jarmo Ryyti's "facts"...
> : 
> : Tor> Hmm, are you sure about this? Isn't "Uffe" from Sibbo/Sipoo?  His last
> : Tor> name at least doesn't indicate any "upper class" connections, like,
> : Tor> say Ehrnrooth or Donner. 
> : 
> : His family was poor and his father was a construction worker.

> I was writing "is an upper-class finlandswede", not "was an upper-class"....

If so, what has the "finlandswede" part to do with it then? And what's
new about the CEO of a bank having a very high salary, and thus being
a member of the "upper class", if you so like? Why can't you admit
that you insinuated Sundqvist was from some "old money"
Finland-Swedish family, or that you want us to think a
Swedish-Speaking Finn automatically is "upper class"?

What would you think if crime news items in the papers started
mentioning the mother tongue of all criminals? "the murderer, a
Finnish-speking man of age 44"...

Is the fact that Kauko Juhantalo (a former minister being investigated
for demanding bribes) is Finnish-speaking in any way relevant?

Wouldn't it be pretty non-informative to say "The Finnish Parliament
has only upper-class members", even if MPs are pretty highly paid...
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 08:09:16 GMT

Johan W. Wikman (wilf@niksula.hut.fi) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec15.062903.13623@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: 
: This was not at all what I was asking you about. I would specifically
: like to have a comment on "The danger is the 5th colonna of Finlandswedes".

So I spesify the danger of the 5th colonna of Finlandswedes.

I see it following way:

For example: When speaking for instance about skandinaviska as an official
language of EC in the future for all the nordics, the finlandswedes eagerly
support the idea once the Swedenswedes propose the idea.

The same way  the importance of skandinaviska as a
lingua franca of Norden is supported by the finlandswedes eagerly if
the swedes of Sweden once so propose.
I think this kind of development is bad for Finland and the finns. 
: 
In this sence I see Finlandswedes as a 5th colonna.

One should remeber that the political party of Finlandswedes is not named
Finlandswedish Party but Swedish Party. It supports my humble theory
of 5th colonna inside Finland.

I hope you are satisfied with the answer, so you could answer my questions:

1.Why there is no single swede demanding for the Swedenfinns similar rights
as Finlandswedes have? Do you know any such a liberal person?

2.Why Sweden is not bilingual like Finland?

regards,
jarmo ryyti

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande)
Subject: Re: Dementia spreading in Social Democratic Party
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:18:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.100255.6045@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>Bob Hammarberg (hberg@polisci.umn.edu) wrote:

>Comrade (*) U.Sundquist is an upper class finlandswede who is a member
>of Finland's Social Democratical Party ("a worker's party"), who has never
>done real work, if making politics is not considerd as real work,

 Ulf Sundqvist is not an "upperclass finlandswede", you idiot, he comes
from the working class (and from quite poor conditions at that). Don't think
I'm an admirer of his because of that; it just happens to be a fact.
--
Antti Lahelma   |	      mtf@saha.hut.fi 	           |   GNOTHI SEAUTON 
Lehtotie 3     -O-	      stel@purkki.apu.fi          -*-  ====== ======= 
00630 HELSINKI  | <<Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> |    TUNNE ITSESI
From: sizex@stl.stc.co.uk (Eric Barber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Learning Norwegian
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 18 Dec 1992 09:11:49 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, England.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.199.200.40

In article <1992Dec17.133209@IASTATE.EDU> khelgese@IASTATE.EDU (Kjetil Helgesen) writes:
>Even though I would also recommend to learn "bokmaal" to most people, it will
>depend a little on what the purpose of learning it is.  If it is learning a
>little before going to Norway to visit relatives, I would recommend "nynorsk" to
>people with relatives in the west part of southern Norway, especially the
>northwest (north of Bergen). ...

I learned bokm}l and my Sogn og Fjordane (north of Bergen) relatives don't
have a problem with that, though I have picked up a lot of dialect words :-)

basically, take whichever course you can, be it landsm}l, riksm}l, nynorsk,
bokm}l or samnorsk. the course is only going to be a way to get you started.

Eric

Eric Barber			E.O.Barber@bnr.co.uk
BNR Europe Limited		6 742 3527
London Road			+44 279 403527/429531
Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA		England
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tostbye@uwovax.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Want to learn to read and speak Norwegian.  Recommendations?
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:33:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.014218.222@netcom.com>, noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
> Hello,
> 
> As having 100% Norwegian ancestry (yea, I know, I know, I've bragged about
> this a few times before), I would like to learn to read and speak Norwegian.
> 
> I would like recommendations as to how to go about doing this.  Also, I'd
> also like to know if there are many dialects, and if so, is there such a
> thing as 'High Norwegian'.  


It is ussually not called 'high Norwegian', but I think most people
in Norway will agree that the Norwegian that is spoken in Bergen, the
previous capital of Norway, is regarded as a superior form of Norwegian.
It sounds better, and is also linguistically a lot more coherent than
Norwegian spoken elsewhere in Norway.

> 
> Any advice, help, and better understanding of the language itself would be
> most appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.

Spend a year in Bergen.

> 
> Jon Noring  (my grandfather was Harold Torvald Nordeng(en), from around Ski)
> 
> -- 
> 
> Charter Member of the INFJ Club.
> 
> Now, if you're just dying to know what INFJ stands for, be brave, e-mail me,
> and I'll send you some information.  It WILL be worth the inquiry, I think.
> 
> =============================================================================
> | Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.com        | I VOTED FOR PEROT IN '92 |
> | JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   | Support UNITED WE STAND! |
> | 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "The dogs bark, but the  |
> | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 417-4101   |  caravan moves on."      |
> =============================================================================
> Who are you?  Read alt.psychology.personality!  That's where the action is.
From: tml@tik.vtt.fi (Tor Lillqvist)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dementia spreading in Social Democratic Party
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:44:10
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Laboratory for Information
	Processing (VTT/TIK)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tik.vtt.fi
In-reply-to: ryyti@jyu.fi's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:02:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.100255.6045@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
> Comrade (*) U.Sundquist is an upper class finlandswede 

Hmm, are you sure about this? Isn't "Uffe" from Sibbo/Sipoo?  His last
name at least doesn't indicate any "upper class" connections, like,
say Ehrnrooth or Donner. If he indeed was from the traditional
Swedish-speaking upper class, why the hell would he have chosen to
become a social democratic politican and director of the former
"Workers' Savings Bank"?  Wouldn't he more probably have been in SYP,
Helsingfors Sparbank, Partek, etc whatever the traditional "Swedish
capital" corporations are?

> who is a member of Finland's Social Democratical Party ("a worker's
> party"),

Not just member, he's their chairman, for chrissake... sometimes your
understatements are as ridiculous as your overstatements.

> who has never done real work, if making politics is not considerd
> as real work,

Well, isn't this very common for the middle-aged political "broilers"?
Esko Aho, Ilkka Kanerva, Paavo V{yrynen etc. But isn't being a bank
manager, minister or M.P. real work?

Disclaimers: I didn't vote for the Social Democrats in the last couple
of elections. I am certainly not from the upper-class (I am from a
single-parent low-income civil-servant (no, Jarmo, that doesn't mean
"siviilipalvelusmies", but "virkamies") home. I think Sundqvist should
resign as chairman of SDP. 
--
Tor Lillqvist,
working, but not speaking, for the Technical Research Centre of Finland,
Laboratory for Information Processing (VTT/TIK).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Human Right of the Finns of Sweden in danger.
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:47:28 GMT

Urban F (urf@icl.se) wrote:
: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes: 
: >Tor Lillqvist (tml@tik.vtt.fi) wrote:
: 
: Isn't the rule in Finland that the minority must be at least 5%?
: How can you say that this condition is valid in "most" Swedish
: towns if there is no valid statistics? (Oh my, it's possible to
: read this as if I were a monolingual imperalistic Swede! :-)

Well there is an other rule, if a place/town has 3000 swedish speakers/
finnish speakers the place/town is bilingual.

: Seriously, apart from the parts of Sweden where Finnish is spoken
: traditionally (mainly in the north), and Stockholm, what towns do
: you think have more than 5% Finnish speaking inhabitants?

It is easier to name the places which were not according to this
3000/5% rule bilingual. I think only Gr|nk|ping...

Could you or an other swede, please explain why the parts of Sweden
where finnish is tradtionally spoken are not officially bilingual? 
I am very curious:-.
You know most regions of Sweden should be according to this 5% rule bilingual.
: 
: (Reason I include Stockholm is that we have lots of Finnish
: _citizens_ here, and the number of those with Swedish as their
: native language probably is balanced by the those Swedish
: citizens with Finnish as their mother tongue. But I don't _know_!)
: --
Well, may be it is up to swedes themselves what they do with their
finnish minority and an "internal" affair. Is it up to the swedes if they
define the genocide of the forest finns a genocide or not:-)

But when something similar happens outside Sweden it is of course
not only an affair of a country X, only Sweden is an exeption of the rule?

regards,
jarmo ryyti
en finnj{vel

Ps.Should Sweden be excluded from UN?
From: kevin.fong@uttsbbs.uucp (Kevin Fong) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: THANKS FOR THE HELP
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:19:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Transfer Station BBS, Danville, CA - 510-837-4610/837-5591
Reply-To: kevin.fong@uttsbbs.uucp (Kevin Fong) 

Thanks to those who responded to my request for assistance in locating
the title of a video shown in Norway on New Year's Eve.  Unfortunately,
it looks like the video/film is called something different depending on
which country it is shown in (I received replies from Norway, Sweden,
Switzerland and England... "Dinner for One", "The 90th Birthday",
"Same Procedure as Last Year", "The butler and the Countess", etc...).

I guess I'll have to wait till New Year's Eve and have a relative video
tape it for use next year.  Thanks again for everyone's help!

Kevin.
Internet:  sysop@uttsbbs.UUCP or
           sysop%uttsbbs%boo@pacbell.com
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: The Swedenfinn seek official support from Finland
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:48:55 GMT

In article <d1hej.724634684@dtek.chalmers.se> d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se (Henrik Jonsson) writes:
   ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

   >As the peak of all swedish faschism Ms. Anita Gradin declared publicly
   >"Sweden is monolingual and remains monolingual". She is a prominent
   >politician in Sweden, normally you heard such speeches in South-Africa
   >and in Nazi-Germany but Sweden is no exeption. Her speeches however did

   There you're right BUT in Sweden we have a special education
   system for the "foreign" children in school... They get about 5 hours
   a week where they see a special teacher, often in very small classes
   with exeptionally personal help from the teacher, where they learn
   their so called home-language even if they are immigrating from
   some dark end of africa or even Finland.

You haven't been following the discussion for very long, have you? To
Jarmo Ryyti, "home-language" education is one of the prime examples of
Swedish contempt of immigrants!
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Traditional Swedish Christmas song
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:50:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.201009.5582@math.ucla.edu> alex@julia.math.ucla.edu (Alex Langley) writes:


>I've always wondered what Sma gradorna (The Little Frogs) had to do with 
>Christmas.  Could someone please explain this?

Nothing, really.  It's just that at Xmas time the radio & TV people try to 
be cute, put a whole lot of kids on the air, and Sm} grodorna is one of the 
few things they've learned in school, so that's what you get.
From: kfa@atomi.hut.fi (Kim Fallstrom)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Sibbo/Sipoo revisited
Summary: Language wars will be fought in Sipoo...
Keywords: Hurri-Finnj{vel War Politics Opression Stupidity
Date: 21 Dec 92 01:52:29 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland


>The decision was based on census figures of 31 Dec 1991. The statistics for
>Sibbo/Sipoo are rather interesting:
>
>Language:		Swedish	Finnish
>31 Dec 1991	r	7410	7369
>30 Nov 1992		7375	7511
>change in 11 months	 -35	+136
>

The reason for Sipoo being Swedish/Finnish for the next 10 years is the
Finnish Law. An official decision was made in Sipoo this autumn to change the
first language to be Finnish, as an increasing propotion of the local
population will be finnish-speaking people. To change the language with
the above shown situation would have required a change in the law, a kind of
Lex Sipoo. The government of Finland was unwilling to make such a law,
so next year I will still be living in \stersundom, not in some It{salmi. 
I like the original name better...

Kim Fallstr|m, som bor i Sibbo men talar finska.


--
From: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Skandinavisk
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:29:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thunderball Cave BBS - Oslo, Norway  (47 2) 56 70 18
Reply-To: kjetil.lenes@thcave.no (Kjetil Lenes)

What do you mean by the term "skandinaviska"? Several persons in this
conference use the term as they were talking about a language.

Kjetil

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Norway - home of nisser, troll, hulder og draug.
From: sizex@stl.stc.co.uk (Eric Barber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Wanted: recipes for Julegloegg
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 15 Dec 1992 17:09:51 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, England.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.199.200.40

per 75cl bottle of red wine -

heat slowly to simmering with 100ml sugar, some raisins,
some blanched almonds (pour on boiling water, let stand,
squeeze almonds out of skins), 10 cloves, 4 cardamoms, 2 sticks
cinnamon, and slivers of lemon peel. serve. enjoy.

God Jul og Godt Nytt}r.

Eric

Eric Barber			E.O.Barber@bnr.co.uk
BNR Europe Limited		6 742 3527
London Road			+44 279 403527/429531
Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA		England
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finnish Defense
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:21:42 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk

mtf@saha.hut.fi (dalens ande) writes:

> I don't know what you're referring at. I believe guerilla warfare worked
>out pretty well in the Afghanistan and Vietnam wars. Am I mistaken?

Yes, it worked well -- for the attackers. The guerilla in Viet Nam was
beaten thoroughly by USA early on, USA was beaten by conventional
forces given _lots_ of equipment from abroad.
In Afghanistan, the guerilla was unable to capture towns from the
government army by guerilla means even after the Soviets left.

In fact, I don't think there's any case where a guerilla has
repelled an invader -- its use is in keeping restinance going
while waiting for help from the outside.

>Still, technology nowadays plays a far greater role in warfare
>than it did 50 years ago.

Depending on how you define it. As I see it, high-tech is to the
advantage of small, defending nations.
--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  
 A weapon is a device for making your enemy change his mind.
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Wanted: recipes for Julegloegg
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:36:39 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <1992Dec15.162426.19359@slcs.slb.com> hansen@scr.slb.com (Ove Hansen) writes:

stuff deleted

I posted a recipe for Julegloegg some time ago but it has probably 
disappeared by now. 

1 bottle of cheap red wine (e.g. Roedvin-roedvin).
1 dl sugar (you may well try less).
3-5 cloves (nelliker)
5 g cinnamon bar (kanelstang)

raisins, almonds (peeled) to taste
The yellow part of the peel of 1/4 of a lemon (all the white part of the
peel removed) cut in small pieces (1 x 5 mm). This takes time and may be
deleted.

Heat wine, sugar and spices for a few minutes, add the rest, reheat. Serve
in small cups. A spoon is needed if you wish to eat the almonds and
raisins.

In order to make non-alcoholic gloegg I take "solbaersaft" instead of wine
and delete the sugar.

Some people add hard liquor to their gloegg but that is not really needed.

This recipe is actually Swedish, but I have served it at the Christmas
luncheon at the Department of Chemistry, University of Bergen, for at
least 15 years.

Rolf Manne
e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic