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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:23:12 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Nattering Nabobs

Jason:
Gary wrote:
>>(WRT to criticism of Bush on the response speed, I had the impression that
>>most of the criticism was coming from local officials in Florida, not the
>>media - but hell, why not kill the messenger for the message...)

and Jason replied:
>Because the media have taken up the accusations of one or two Florida officials
>and blown it up into a page 1 story.  The media could have covered the relief
>program however they chose, and they chose to portray it as another case of
>Bush being out of touch with his surroundings while devoting only minimal time
>to any opposing point of view.

The way I was taught, objectivity requires the media to report what people
are saying about the relief effort.  Balance requires that both sides be
presented.  To be over-simplistic, if 2/3 of people in Florida are
condemning Bush and 1/3 like what he's doing, that's how it should be
covered.  For what it's worth, my perception of the coverage (I mostly
watch CNN) differs from yours.  It doesn't seem unbalanced, and it
certainly hasn't led me to think that Bush is acting solely to "buy" much-
needed electoral votes.

But that's just my perception :)
Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:31:27 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET

 *** Resending note of 08/28/92 11:20

 first i'd like to say, thank you robert. i was having problems deciding between
 you and travis as to who was the dumbest. YOU WIN!

 -linda

       I think what you meant to say here was:
       "I hate being confronted by the truth!  Leave me alone you
        bully."

 ---Robert
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 14:38:00 EDT
From:         Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: shoah, what is politics?,
              and i'll enter the stupidest contest

On Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:34:58 -0500 ANTHLAL@UMNACVX.BITNET said:
> *political* implication of the enfranchisement of children (after all, we keep
> calling them citizens...should we let 'em vote?  what age do you want, say, 6?
)
>
>                          * * *anneliese "those advanced degrees...they're all
>                               an elaborate front" l.

If a state wanted to, it *could* let six-year-olds vote.
-Travis
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:38:31 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Andy, Leader and maybe Dave on the Environment

-andy:
>I never claimed that hunters were a magic cure.  (I "hunt" in
>supermarkets.)  I claimed that they "do the right thing" for the
>environment when there's game involved and that the rest of us
>basically drop the ball.  We can get hunters to do more by giving them
>more species to care about; we know what happens when it's up to us.

Oh, OK.  I disagree somewhat that the rest of us drop the ball, but I'll go
along with the rest with few reservations.  Now, how do we get hunters to
"care" about (i.e., want to hunt) things other than those they already are?
For example, how can we get more hunters to take advantage of doe season
instead of focusing on trophy bucks?  That would do much to help regulate
deer populations?

>My definition of "not scarce" includes "pets become lion-food in
>significant numbers and kids are attacked".  Maybe things are
>different elsewhere, but that's how things are getting in CA.  We'll
>develop "the problem" away....

And my definition of "not scarce" means population sizes sufficient to
allow long-term survival.  In some times and some places, that means
keeping people out and letting pets take their chances.

>I don't really have a preservation goal, I have a conservation goal.
>Death doesn't bother me either.

What do you perceive as the difference between preservation and
conservation?  Honest question.

>I do like pointing out that there are healthy and thriving herds of
>elephants in every country that had legalized elephant hunting, that
>the only places where they're endangered are those where elephants had
>no legal commercial value.  (You'll notice that domestic farm animals
>aren't endangered either.)  Preservationists value their values more
>than they value elephants....

Where populations are large and growing (and causing major problems!),
allowing folks to hunt/sell legally is not something I have a problem with.
But I think the situation is a bit more complicated, perhaps, than you
portray.  "The only places where they're endangered are those where
elephants had no legal commercial value" suggests that, if legal hunting
replaced poaching, the populations would be in good shape.  That only works
if legalizing hunting resulted in fewer elephants being killed, right?

Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:04:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      It Ain't Over Yet Jamie

Jamie,
   I still have to respond to you to clarify things.  It has been a busy
week at work and I had to get out of the office during lunch, so I have not
been able to respond yet.  Don't make too much fun of me over the weekend
Jamie.

Carl--------+
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 11:51:00 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: cutting off one's nose to spite one's face
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Tue, 1 Sep 1992 11:24:43 EST Kerry Stephenson said:
>Okay:
>
>The difference is oil.  Oil, being necessary to the day-to-day existence
>of the country, is a commodity that requires preservation for the national
>interests.  Bosnians are not.

Let us not forget the other difference:  Iraq invaded Kuwait and poses
add'l threats.  The other situation is a matter of allowing one
country to split from another.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:32:33 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Patriotism
              3 Sep 1992 12:51:39 EST from <92price@GW.WMICH.EDU>

Excuse me, Kai:

I am a conservative.  I do not have a "war-bent hive mentality."

You owe me an apology.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:20:03 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: my last word on this EVER
              31 Aug 1992 18:30:00 EDT from <Richard_A_FYFE@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>

Richard:

Why are genocide and using someone's body against their will wrong?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:59:52 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Rosty on Heath Care
Comments: To: politics <politics@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Today's "Inc." column in the Trib:

Rep. Dan Rostenkowski told a meeting of health care experts that there won't
be much progress in cutting the huge budget deficit next year.  The reason:
The herd of incoming freshmen, maybe as many as 150 in the House, who
won't be eager to cast tough votes that could hurt their re-election chances
right off the bat.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:58:00 EST
From:         ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET
Subject:      An easy answer to a little question

>From: Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
>
>Anyhow, my statement is this, many in the conservative
>Right in America hold opinions and beliefs which are nearly
>identical with those of the former Nazi party of Germany.
>In particular, I am thinking of the position on homosexuality.

Who are these "many" conservatives who think that gays should be gassed?  Who
are these "many" conservatives who advocate beating anyone sensless because of
their sexual orientation?  I think you're making a false parallel.  There's a
big difference in thinking that a particular activity is morally wrong and
arguing that any one who engages in that activity should be exterminated.

>With this in mind, how can (and I am asking people who
>believe things like this) people wish to take rights away
>from people or prevent them from having rights just because
>of their sexual orientation?

Yeah, now I'm pretty sure that you're attacking a position which no one holds
(other that, possibly, David Duke).  I'd like for you to produce some quotes
from "many" conservatives which claim that homosexuals should be stripped of
their constitutional rights such as free speech, freedom of assembly, the right
to bear arms, the right to a trial by jury, or anything else.  My guess is that
you won't be able to do so.

Yes, many conservatives, myself included, believe that homosexuality is morally
wrong and yes, we believe that for mainly religious reasons.  However, I know
of no one who thinks that because they engage in an immoral activiy, gays
should therefore be denied the same rights which everyone else enjoys.

Of course, conservatives differ on how they would have the government treat
gays.  Many conservatives of the libertarian variety actaully advocate the
repeal of anti-sodomy laws and legal distinctions between gay and straight
marriages.  I personally agree with them on the former issue and disagree on
the later, but neither issue involves a "right," unless your definition of a
right is extraordinarily broad.  In any case, its still not the cut-and-dry
issue that you make it out to be.

If you'd like to educate yourself about the conservative movement and its
various strands, I'd be happy to refer you to some representative authors.
Your suggestion that conservatives, most of whom oppose "big government," are
like Nazis indicates an ignorance both of Nazism and conservatism.

>Json

Jason Zimmerman
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 09:50:03 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Poll Time

From a Time/CNN Poll, published in Time 8/31:

Q.  Which position best represents your views about abortion?

    *  A woman should be able to get an abortion
       no matter what the reason                           49%

    *  Abortion should be legal only in certain
       circumstances                                       38%

    *  Abortion should be illegal in all
       circumstances                                       10%

(Assuming we accept these as valid numbers), if this isn't a
cultural divide, I don't know what is.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:21:00 EST
From:         JCOCURUL@DREW.BITNET
Subject:      Re: for KAT only. scripture ref

In article <tfilt313603@drew.edu>, "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TU
   LSAJC.BITNET> writes:
>  KAT,
>
>  Matthew 19:9
>
>  ---Robert
>
compare this reference with Lk 16.18, Mk 10: 11-12 and 1 Cor 7:10-13.
Which is the one to look at?  A good abortion reference is Ex
21:22-23.  It is somewhat amusing how people simplify the bible
without realizing they are doing it.  If you look at Ex. 20:1-17, you
note that "you shall not make for yourself a graven image" is a
commandment so "thou shall not covet your neighbor/neighbor's wife
aren't two commandments, especially for "wife" at the time was
controlled by the man like his house (listed before wife) and oxen (listed
after wife).  How the commandments are set up also show this -- each
one is a separate paragraph.

             -Joe
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:08:49 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Erratum and addendum

Hm. In previous cryptic quotation from Sir Thomas, for "Robert"
read "Richard." Wonder what I was thinking?

I actually agree with brni (welcome back) about ends and means.
But not about Gandhi. Read Orwell on Gandhi. He knew.

Jamie
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:00:50 CDT
From:         "The Truth (some assembly required)" <T9AA@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Here's the news from Lake Ponsett

>Dave:

Who told you that Operation Rescue supports abortion in cases of rape and
incest?  While OR is, certainly, made up of individuals of varying
perspectives, Randall Terry does not support abortion in cases of rape or
incest.  To my knowledge, at least a plurality (and perhaps a majority, the
data is still out) of OR members agree with him.  Lambs of Christ
do not support abortion in those cases either.

     Well, no one told me about that, and it does look like I
     blew that one. I recall that the 3 exceptions are part of
     the GOP platform, but again, I'm flying by the seat of my
     pants on that one. Danny boy is on record, from his
     response on Prime Time Live last night, in believe in the
     three exemptions.

Just setting the record straight (it's my job.)

--Missy P 2 B

     Whatever you say.

Dave
t9aa@sdsumus.bitnet
It's very healthy for a young girl to be deterred from promiscuity by
fear of contracting a painful, incurable disease, or cervical cancer,
or sterility, or the likelihood of giving birth to a dead, blind, or
brain-damage baby even ten years later when she may be happily
married.
              --Phyllis Schafly, President, Eagle Forum

Disclaimer:  The opinions contained in this post are not the
opinions of the Administration, Faculty, or Student Body of
South Dakota State University.  Hell, they might not even
be mine.
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:29:43 CDT
From:         Sue Clark <SACLARK@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Boing

Hello,

How many politicos got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? Show
of hands, please.

The lack of political humor, let alone humor among this list is indeed sad.

Fioist off, the good-humor line was *NOT* mine, it was from a local paper,
but I thought it was good here.  It doesn't matter *WHO* is sponsoring the
fake Elvis, it is typical political hee-ho's, it's hoopla like this that takes
the sour-faced, mega-serious-too-oftenness, out of politics.  But, I should
have known better, I guess it's only okay if Mark Russell or Dana Carvey
does it.

Are not the LOW roads, or HIGH roads from the ooooold say of:

'You take the high road and I'll take the low road and I'll get to Scotland
or the White House or to Congress before you.'

It is okay if liberals have the right to political humor where others can
laugh, but not okay with conservatives when we get responded with questions
like, 'What are you saying?', 'What are you trying to prove?'  'Are you
trying to equate this candidates past Congressional performance, with his
future canine-catcher aspirations by telling us that this politician is a dog??

.............Yes.

Come on, lighten up!   When I was a liberal, I knew what it was like to laugh
at conservatives, that was considered good sport, but now that I am a conser-
vative, I have discovered that it is not okay for conservatives to laugh  at
liberals, that is considered slander, and the press seems to agree when they
expound on any morsal that can be used against conservatives, but call it sland
er if any conservative tries to use one.

If you claim that I said there is something LOW among the Democrats by the
phase, 'How low can they go.', then you take it out of context.  Given the old
saying, 'the low road' means how fast are the Democrats trying to get to the
White House?  As fast as even George Bush can get there by taking the high one.
No earlier, no later.

Put the egos in neutral, enjoy your 'Too Much Magic Bus' ride, with the
fake Elvis, wherever he is, and pass the barbaque chicken on that bus.

While Rush has the last laugh!  Ha, ha...Ha ha..haaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

And just think, even the real Elvis served in the Army.

Sue Clark

'That's a joke, son!'  - originally quoted by Kenny Delmare as Senator Foghorn
Cleghorn, from the movie of the same name, who became the inspiration of
Foghorn Leghorn.  And he was funny too.

Another oxymoron....KAT/praying.  Praise the Lord!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:27:00 +0200
From:         HOUSSAH5@EGAUCACS.BITNET
Subject:      Changing topic?!?

Hi guys,
        I think that the Rape topic should by now be largely covered,
I have a suggestion for another talk,(may be a long one mind you).
Could anyone help me understanding the difference between what is
happenning in Bosnia and what was and is happenning in Irak?
I mean, in both cases, we are talking about some more equipped majority
trying to impose its will on a less equipped majority with no legal ground
for their actions.
Why then does the world stands against Irak, sends troops, navy, aircraft,
etc.. etc.. while no such prompt and swift action is taken in Bosnia?

I've asked this question around several times, and the same answer keeps
repeating itself.
                                O I L
Is that right? Any other suggestions?? Any opinions??
Specially waiting to see what Richard has to say for this one.
                                                Gilbert
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:18:42 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: i am so dismayed

linda:
>anyway, do you know what they make the cards and notepaper and giftwrap out of?
>
>"post-consumer fibers".
>
>somehow i feel dismayed when i hear and read pc-isms from organizations of whic
   h
>i think highly. every time i hear unnecessary jargon, i feel like i'm being
>given a load of bull.

Maybe I can help end your dismay.  Really, they're trying to provide you
with the maximum amount of useful information.  Assuming that what I've
read about recyclables is accurate, it works kinda like this.  The word
"recycled" (as in "contains recycled fibers") can refer to fibers (or
whatever) that are by-products of other manufacturing processes.  In this
case, the materials are really being "consumed" for the first time.  "Post-
consumer" means the materials were used for something else *before* they
got turned into wrapping paper etc.

See?  Now you can order those wolf notecards and enjoy them free from the
noxious cloud of pc-ism :)

Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:12:47 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Say What??!?

>   You'd probably be a little sensitive too if YOUR relatives were beaten
>   to within an inch of their lives in government and church schools for
>   speaking their native language. It wasn't all that long ago.

no, not that long ago. up until the late 1960's children were punished in the
schools in new mexico (where i finished my last yr. of high school) for
speaking any language but english. non-english was of course mostly spanish, but
also some navajo.

>   Diane

-linda

Why does this sort of thing happen anywhere?  I never thought about
it occurring anywhere else in the US, but it happened in south
Louisiana to my grand parents for speaking French.

When will people learn to at least tolerate differences even if they
can't be enjoyed.

By the way, I do understand the need for learning English(in this
case, I am only speaking about my home), but the result in Louisiana
is that the Cajun dialect of French is all but gone as the only people
who still speak it die. :(

The culture lives on however because we are a tenacious breed. :)

Json
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:49:59 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: child care tax credit

 *** Resending note of 08/27/92 09:33

 >From Missy
 >I think the same people who write SAS manuals are in charge of tax forms.
 >Once you go beyond the E-Z form, you need a CPA to get it right.  (And,
 >of course, every year, they do that nifty study that proves that if you
 >call the IRS 50 different times with the same question, you get 50
 >different answers, and all of them are wrong.  I always wonder how they
 >ultimately decide what the right answer is, anyway.)

 The IRS/correct answer is:

 The proper course of action in deciding the tax liability of any honest
 middle class taxpayer is as follows.  Exercise the plan which inflicts the
 absolute maximum amount of personal, emotional and financial insult and
 injury.  Purposely disregard the Constitution and generally accepted forms
 of human decency in order to intimidate and strike fear within the entire
 community of your designated victim.  Slap a lien on every asset real or
 imagined and tow everything physically possible to an auction site.  Invade
 all private areas of the lives of each and every member of the family,
 including the recently deceased.  If after having done these things, the
 taxpayer has any dignity, faith in government or cash you have made a
 mistake in judgement so repeat the process.

 ---Robert
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:01:46 -0500
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: two questions

I can answer the second question. there were reportedly 72 planes at Homestead
AFB, 70 were flown to safety. Two were being repaired, and were destroyed. VMS
From: bobweiss@acsu.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: double standards in the twin cities
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:44:15 GMT
Organization: UB

ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET (Tim Johnson) writes:


>  How 'bout a politics related trivia question...

>  Who is the stupidest listmember?

	I second the motion. All in favor say aye, opposed nay.
	Votes will be accepted for the next two weeks.
	Results will be posted 	9/14/92.
	Make your vote public.


>I have an idea - why don't we use this list as a forum
>for flirting and inane conversation for all of us who
>don't have lives or friends - how 'bout that?  Politics
>schmolitics.  Let the subscriber beware.

	Tim,
		Didn't you write a post about Jimbo and shellfish?



=========================
bobweiss@acsu.buffalo.edu
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