From: bacondip@amy3.stanford.edu (James Rucker)
Subject: Re: The scheduled execution of William Andrews
Reply-To: james@objy.com
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 06:18:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.045228.20592@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp  
(Michael Friedman) writes:
In soc.culture.african.american article  
<1992Jul20.045228.20592@oracle.us.oracle.com> you wrote:
> In article <1992Jul20.013315.18993@leland.Stanford.EDU> james@objy.com  
writes:
> 
> >HELP!!
> >Does anyone know that a Black man will be executed on July 30 by the  
State  
> >of Utah, despite the fact that he did not kill anybody?
> 
> Yup.  And it's a damned good thing too.  Let me ask you - why are you
> defending scum just because the scum happens to be Black?
> 
> >I am puzzled and pissed that almost nobody in California knows who or  
what  
> >I'm talking about.  There was a robbery that occurred in 1974 in Salt  
Lake  
> >City, in which two men, one of whom was William Andrews, held several  
> >people hostage.  While Andrews participated in initially torturing some  
of  
> >the hostages, he left when his companion (Selby) decided to shoot and  
kill  
> >the hostages.  
> 
> Your statement above implies causation - that Andrews left becasue he
> did not want to be involved in the killings.  Do you have evidence of
> this beyond Andrews' own testimony?  I certainly haven't heard any.
> 

I do have evidece: the two survivors testified that Andrews left when  
Selby decided to shoot the victims.

> >After Andrews left, Selby killed the hostages in the  
> >immediate vicinity, excluding a woman whom he raped and a man that he  
> >nearly killed by kicking a pen through his head. In any case, Selby was  
> >executed not long after the robbery and murders 
> >
> In any case, while Andrews participated in the initial  
> >stages of brutalizing the hostages, this did not kill any of the  
hostages;  
> >their death was caused by Selby shooting them.  The torture that  
Andrews  
> >helped administer was making them drink Drano.  He poured the Drano  
while  
> >Selby gave it to the hostages.  It is true that this could have killed  
the  
> >hostages if they didn't receive medical help. 
> 
> Actually, according to testimony at the trial, the correct adjective
> is 'would', not 'could'. 
> 

You are correct.  I didn't mean to leave it so open.

> >I am not trying to let Andrews off of the hook; 
> 

> So why not let Utah fry his butt?
> 
Not letting someone off the hook can mean putting them in jail for 5  
years, 20 years or life.  Killing someone is not the only answer.  This is  
an extremely simple-mided response.  Are you hearing yourself?

> >Andrews committed henious  
> >crimes and and brutally violated the hostages.  I certainly hold him  
> >accountable for his actions.  However, does this man deserve to die  
given  
> >that 1) is not clear that he thought his actions would lead to someone  
> >else's death, 2) he clearly refused to shoot any hostages, and 3) no  
one  
> >died from his torture?  At this point, it looks like on July 30, he  
will  
> >indeed die.
> 
> Excuse me, but when you make people drink poison what the heck do you
> think is going to happen to them?  Now if you had some evidence that
> Andrews had a sub-moron IQ then you might have a point.  As it is,
> however, you're just parroting the claims he is making in order to try
> to save his miserable life.  Do you really believe that Andrews was
> not trying to poison the hostages when he made them drink Draino?
> 
First, it seems as if it were Selby's idea to use the poison.  It would be  
odd that if he weren't he would be the one actually giving it to the  
hostages.  In any case, I would never claim that he didn't know that he  
was poisoning them, but that doesn't mean he knew that they would die.

> >It is important to note...
> 
> Why is it important?
> 
> >that a man named David Hoffman, a white Mormon  
> >killed two people who knew because he was afraid that they had figured  
out  
> >that he had sold phony, supposedly sacred, documents to the LDS (Latter  
> >Day Saints - Mormon) Church.  He built bombs from galvanized pipe,  
nails  
> >and explosives and put them at the victims residences dressed up as  
mailed  
> >packages.  The two people's bodies were blown in several parts.   
Hoffman's  
> >case was settled out of court and he is now in medium security prison.   
He  
> >may be released in the next five years.
> 
> 1.  It wasn't settle out of court.  You don't get sent to jail without
> going to court.

Correct, I should have been more careful.  He succesfully plea bargained -  
a benefit of having good legal representation.

> 
> 2.  Hoffman, as I remember it, plead guilty.  It's a lot tougher to
> get the death penalty if you plead guilty.

You don't plead guilty if you didn't commit the crime you're charged with  
or if your lawyer believes that you won't be convicted.   If Andrews'  
lawyer was any good, he would have had him plead guilty to the charges  
rather than having face a possible death penalty.  And as far as Hoffman  
goes, in such an important case as this, if the courts were serious, they
wouldn't have plea bargained and reduced his charges as they did.
> 
> 3.  The death penalty usually requires aggravating factors.  Andrews
> has torture as an aggravating factor.  Hoffman?  Well, premeditation,
> but Andrews had that too.
> 
> 4.  If you've got a problem with Hoffman getting off why don't you try
> to get the death penalty used on more murderers both white and black
> instead of trying to get people like Andrews off too?

In theory, I don't have a problem with the death penalty being used  
against murderers. However, while Andrews attempted murder, he did not  
murder anyone.  These are separate crimes.  I am all for giving equal  
punishments regardless of race.  However, the judge you get, the makeup of  
a jury, and your lawyer (especially when dealing with public defenders)  
determine much too strongly what verdict and sentence a defendant  
receives.  Andrews' lawyer stated that Utah didn't have a race bias.   
Anyone who is bright, not racist, and knows anything about the makeup of  
Utah would never make such a statement.  Also note that the prosecuting  
attorney stated that if were Andrews were Black, he would probably not be  
facing the death penalty.

> 
> >While I don't know as much about the Hoffman case, it is the case which  
> >many in Salt Lake City and surrounding areas point to as evidence that  
> >racism underlies the planned execution of Andrews. 
> 
> Many?  Who is this 'many'?  I can find many idiots anywhere I go.
> Want to explain why you think Hoffman's crime is on the same level as
> Andrews'? 

In the articles which I read, Hoffman's was compared.  I don't intend to  
lean on it heavily as evidence of racism or foul play.  But it is relevant  
to show that a confessed murderer who premeditated his crime can escape  
capital punishment, while someone who coudl be characterized as an  
attempted murderer does not.
> 
> >At this point it is  
> >likely that nothing will stop the execution.  
> 
> Good.
> 
> >Don't let this be another Black man who goes out in the wrong way and  
for  
> >the wrong reasons. 
> 
> How bout if he goes out in the right way for trhe right reasons -
> frying in the electric chair because he is murdering scum whatever
> color of skin he has?

Since any lawyer or judge that Blacks get harsher sentences than Whites  
for similar crimes, I think it is important to examine a case in light of  
possible racial bias of the judge, jury, and legal defense, before  
determining whether or not some is executed.  I believe that whatever  
penalties society determines for crimes, they should changes based on the  
race of the accused.
> 
> 
> -- 
>  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-----
> I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one  
else.

I do appreciate your response, although I hope you think harder about this  
issue.

-- James
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american