From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Addressing Turkish Genocide Apology #447
Followup-To: foolishness 
Summary: Another reference from a non-exiatant source 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 16:21:43 GMT

As scribed in <9211052040@zuma.UUCP>, a further Turkish re-write of history, 
posted via its fascist servant sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic), we found...

...another reference from a non-existent source!

Note: [(*] == Turkish re-write of history.

Turkish Genocide Apology responded to article <1992Nov3.193633.3990@newstand.
syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) who wrote:

[CRD] Yeah. What a great historian you are! Too arrogant to even define an 
[CRD] uncommon term. I haven't had a conversation like this since I left 
[CRD] fourth grade, "dildo".

[(*] In March 1915, the Russian forces began to move toward Van. Immediately,
[(*] in April 11, 1915 the Armenians of Van began a revolt, massacring all 
[(*] the Turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy 
[(*] conquest by Russians. Little wonder that Czar Nicholas II sent a 
[(*] telegram of thanks to the Armenian Revolutionary Committee of Van in 
[(*] April 21, 1915, "thanking it for its services to Russia." The Armenian 
[(*] newspaper Gochnak, published in the United States, also proudly 
[(*] reported in May 24, 1915 that 

[(*] "only 1,500 Turks remained in Van the rest having been slaughtered."

Upon checking the Gochnak newspapers here at the Center for Regional Studies:

First of all, THERE IS NO MAY 24th, 1915 ISSUE OF GOCHNAK!

Second, the closest issue of Gochnak to the May, 24th, 1915 issue is the May
15th, 1915 which only mentions Turkish attacks on the Van and Salmast 
(Persia) regions.

Third, Gochnak was published in the Armenian language, too bad Mr. Turkish 
Fascist.

Forth, today there are no Armenians in Van -- only Turks! Upon quoting a
Turkish government sponsored reference, used in the cover-up of the Turkish
genocide of the Armenians, we find:

	"The 1927 Turkish census registered not one person of the Gregorian
	 Armenian faith in Van, one on Bayazit, and twelve in Erzurum. A
	 people who had lived in eastern Anatolia since before recorded
	 history were simply gone". [1]

NO Armenians left in Van, not a single Armenian! Oh yes, the Armenian, "were 
simply gone", they vanished, as truth vanishes when the pen is in the hands of
Turkish Genocide Apology!

		- - - Turkish-suggested Reference - - -

[1] _Muslims and Minorities; The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End
    of the Empire, Justin McCarthy, New York University Press, 1983, page 121
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains." 

			..........OR............

[(*] == Turkish Genocide Apology

   +----------------------------------------------------------+
   |                                                          |
   |  The Expose' of Iranian General and Turkish Ambassador   |
   |  Hassan Arfa as Used in an Anti-Armenian Campaign        |
   |  Sponsored by the Turkish Government as Presented by     |
   |  their UseNet-Surrogates.                                |
   |                                                          |
   +----------------------------------------------------------+

Once again we shall expose the Turkish Historical Society for what they 
are -- a pack of historical revisionists!

Highlights:

1) Hassan Arfa is not a Kurd, as claimed by Turkish Historical Society via
   their scribal dolts,

2) Hassan Arfa personally led Azeris into attacks on Kurds circa 1920,

3) Hassan Arfa was an Iranian General and Chief of Staff,

4) Hassan Arfa ended his career as the Iranian Ambassador to Turkey!

Let's witness just how the revision of history can take place, and once again
in an astounding fashion it will be exposed and thrown onto an ever-expanding
garbage heap along with neo-Nazism propaganda.

[(*] Kurdish and western scholars say it's all there.

Hassan Arfa was an Iranian General, not a scholar. Ethically he was a 
Caucasian Muslim, NEITHER a Kurd nor a western "scholar". In the reference 
used he never claimed to be a Kurd, only Iranian! He was also the Chief of 
Staff of the Iranian Army 1944-46, and the Ambassador to Turkey 1958-61. These 
facts alone would disqualify him, however Arfa does a fine job of that on 
himself -- as we shall read!

In the Preface of the text quoted by (Serder Argic) we find, in Hassan Arfa's
own words (emphasis mine) [1]:

	"The reader will wonder how it is possible for an Iranian officer,
	 who for years FOUGHT AGAINST THE KURDS in the frontier districts to
	 write an objective and impartial account of their history, position
	 and aspirations, and not introduce a bias in favor of his own
	 country which includes a Kurdish minority about one million strong"

	 He...has restricted himself to an account of known and undeniable
	 historical facts."

We shall see!

We were fed the following foolishness:

[(*] Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.
[(*]  
[(*] "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
[(*]  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
[(*]  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
[(*]  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer..
[(*]  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more than  ^
                               ^                                            |
                               |                                            |
+---SELECTED DELETION HERE-----+                                            |
|                                                                           |
|  [(*]  six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in   |
|  [(*]  eastern vilayets of Turkey."                                       |
|                                       ^                                   |
|           +---------------------------|         +--SELECTED DELETION HERE-+
|           V                                     |
|   ENDING SELECTIVELY         +------------------+
|   DELETED (See Below)        |
|                              V
|
|  Let's next read what was purposely DELETED in the general area of this
|  quote pointed to above:
|
|       "...adventurer whom the author saw in 1920 promenading in Paris on
|        Champs-Elysees clad in the traditional Caucasian cossack dress and
|        accompanied by two bodyguards armed to the teeth. He had come to
|        take part in the Paris Peace Conference on behalf of Armenia, but
|        was killed a few months later by regular Armenian forces while trying
|        to seize power in that country. [*] Arfa footnote.
|
| 
|  Totally inaccurate !!!!!! General Antranik died in Fresno, California in 
|  1927 !!! He is buried in Paris, France. So much for "undeniable historical
|  facts". Regarding the Arfa footnote [*], Arfa quotes these "facts" from 
|  another book he wrote entitled _Under Five Shahs_, Hassan Arfa, London,
|  1964, page 122. Hmm..two books with one total inaacuracy!
|
+--------------------------------+
                                 |
                                 V

Continuing...let's insert what Turkish Genocide Apology DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE
COURAGE TO PROVIDE INCLUDE IN THE QUOTE !!!! 

       "...volunteers, IN ORDER TO AVENGE THEIR COMPATRIOTS WHO HAD BEEN
        MASSACRED BY THE KURDS..."

And to finish the paragraph off:

       "...eastern vilayets of Turkey. In this way the region became seriously
        depopulated, as MORE THAN SEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND ARMENIAN HAD BEEN
        DEPORTED IN 1915-1916 TO THE SOUTHERN OTTOMAN PROVINCES -- JAZIRAH,
        MOSUL, HALEP, AND ANTAKIYAH -- MOST OF THEN DYING FROM HUNGER OR
        EXPOSURE OR BEING KILLED BY THE KURDS AND ARABS."

Not even a mention of who [Turkish government] ordered the deportation, and
not a mention of even any Turkish involvement -- No wonder he was the Iranian
Ambassador to Turkey.

While Turkish Genocide Apology feels as though Arfa is a good reference, let's
quote from page 59:

       "The population of these districts is entirely composed of Azeri --
        that is, Turkish-speaking -- Shia Iranians, whose customs, dress,
        speech, physical appearance, creed and political outlook, differ
        completely from that of the Kurds, the latter being warlike and often
        predatory tribesman, the former peace-loving cultivators.

So much for the "facts".

Just down on the same page there is a description of how in 1921, Arfa 
gathered several Azeri "tribes" together and fought against the Kurds of the 
Mahabad area. Just imagine what Arfa did to the 1946 Mahabad Kurdish Republic!

           - - - Turkish-Suggested Reference - - -

[1] Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains." 

[F] Comparing his sources with yours, the only explanation I can come up with 
[F] is that at the begining of the WW1 when Turkey was attacked from outside, 
[F] Armenians committed genocide over unprotected Turkish population
[F] massacreing (as Serdar said)

It seems you have read little of what I have posted over the years, however, if
you simply re-read the quote you called "A", it would seem that Armenians had
no chance to engage in what you and Turkish Genocide Apology claim!

[F] 2.5 millions Turks. When the Turks gained back the control they retaliated.

A rather foolish conclusion, considering by the end of 1916, there were less 
than 150,000 Armenians left in Turkey. Quote "A" implies the Armenians never
had the chance to attack anything.

[F] Therefore I do not see the parallel between serbs who instigated a conflict
[F] in Bosnia and Turks who were, at that time, defending their country. 	

Who had ever made such an analogy? Certainly not me. However since you brought
up the subject, what were the Bosnians doing to the Serbians during WWII?

While we are quoting people, please explain the following quote made by the
Iraqi Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani JUST LAST YEAR !!!

"We want to return to our homes, we don't want Kurdistan to be an Armenia."

				-Jalal Talabani, April 24, 1991

-- 
David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org>  |  "The Regular Army of the Ottomans was 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies      |   entirely innocent of the Armenian 
P.O. Box 382761                       |   massacres." - Inspector General of 
Cambridge, MA 02238                   |   the Turkish forces in Armenia, WWI 

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:31:11 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: You're welcome, Faruk.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:31:11 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1992Dec22.221744.13833@bmerh85.bnr.ca> faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:

>I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
>about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
>suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
>a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
>documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
>unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
>However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
>is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
>and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.

You're welcome, Faruk. Ottoman Armenians have decided to betray their own 
government in 1914 and stab in the back by collaborating with the invading
Russian armies, hoping to establish a separate Armenian state in Eastern 
Anatolia. The Armenian leaders played a gamble that cost 2.5 million Turkish
and Kurdish lives.

The truth needs to be told over and over again. There are Armenians
who of course do know the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims
between 1914-1920 but their voices of truth are suppressed today
in the hollow din of the well-orchestrated anti-Muslim campaign
by the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle and its pathological liars 
and neo-Nazi followers.

During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920, 
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic 
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of 
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year 
homeland.

The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche, 
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel 
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
others.

J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.

Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.

Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.

Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.

Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.

Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.

Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.

Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.

Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.

John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History, 
University of Chicago.

John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.

Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.

Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.

Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.

Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.

Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.

Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.

Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.

Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.

Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).

Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.

Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.

James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.

.......so the list goes on and on and on.....

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 15," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 113, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 520, Section No: 2024, Contents No: 11-1; 11-3.
        (19 Feb 330 '4 March 1915', District Governor Kemal)

"List of male inhabitants of Mergehu Village murdered or annihilated 
 with the utmost savagery by local Armenians who joined Armenian gangs
 strengthening the Russian Forces:

 Names				Method of Annihilation
 -----				----------------------
Haci Ibrahim, son of Abdi	Bullets and bayonet
Abdi, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Reso, son of Abdi		Beaten and cut into pieces
Sado, son of Omer		Beaten and cut into pieces
Aso, son of Reso		Beaten and cut into pieces
Kulu, son of Canko		Stabbed in the eye with a bayonet
Musa, son of Canko		Bayonet in his eye
Emin, son of Molla Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Molla Abdullah, son of Hamit	Bayonet in his eye
Ibo, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Sado, son of Haci		Bayonet in his eye
Abdullah, son of Canko		Slaughtered
Ibo, son of Ahmet		Abdomen ripped open
Ismail, son of Ibo		Burnt in fire
Musto, son of Ozu		Bullets
Mahmut, son of Seyyo		Slaughtered
Kocak, son of Birro		Bullets
Musto, son of Husnu		Bullets
Uso, son of Alo			Bullets
Maksut, son of Peri		Bullets
Haci, son of Peri		Bullets
Mehmet, son of Hasanali		Bayonet 
Ibo, son of Hasanali	 	Bayonet
Abdo, son of Mehmed		Bayonet
Molla Suleyman			Burnt in oven
Mazgi, son of Abdullah		Stabbed in abdomen by bayonet
Sulis, son of Hasan		Bullets
Mahmo, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Murat, son of Hasan		Stabbed with a dagger
Uso, son of Avci		Blinded with a bayonet
Lesko, son of Mehmet		Stabbed with a dagger
Abdullah, son of Kasim		Bullets
Coban Abdullah			Bullets
Seymo, son of Mumin		Bullets 
Muammer, son of Reso		Bullets
Paso, son of Merzi		Bullets
Gulu, son of Bitor		Bullets
Murat, son of Yusuf		Bullets and bayonet
Cedo, son of Haci Ibrahim	Bullets and bayonet
Faki Mehmet			Bullets and bayonet
Silo, son of Abdulcebbar	Bullets and bayonet


 List of massacred females from the same village:

Kasi, daughter of Huso and 
wife of Haci Ibrahim		Bullets
Fati, daughter of Isa,
wife of Aduz			Bullets
Zeresan, daughter of Amat,
wife of Reso			Bayonet
Gullu, daughter of Iyso		Cutting off her breasts
Sulnu, daughter of Sulo,	Ripping open her abdomen and burning
wife of Ibo			her baby in oven
Fatma, daughter of Ibo 		Slaughtered and burnt in oven
Fidan hatun			Burnt in oven
Gulfizar, daughter of Hacihan,  
wife of Musto			Slaughtered
Rahime, daughter of Mehmet, 
wife of Halil			Bullets
Binefs, daughter of Haci Kerim,
wife of Suleyman		Burnt in oven
Mahiye, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Sivno			Slaughtered
Hati, daughter of Haci, 
wife of Ahmet         		Slaughtered
Hacer, daughter of Meho		Bullet and bayonet


 List of Females of the same village raped and murdered:

Nadire, daughter of Haci, wife of Suvis
Hani, daughter of Kulu, wife of Zerko
Zaliha, daughter of Telli, wife of Silo
Arap, daughter of Sami, wife of Hilo

 Wounded males and females of the same village:

 (a long list)

 List of massacred males and females at Istuci village:

Mikail, son of Alo		Bullets
Musto, son of Ismail		Bullets
Dervis, son of Maksut		Bullets
Ali, son of Nimet		Bayonet
Esat, son of Kelo		Bayonet and bullets
Isa, son of Nebi		Bayonet and bullets
Cevher, son of Gani		Beaten by rifle butt
Ziro, daughter of Hasan		Died from injuries
Hazal, daughter of Ali, 
wife of Acem			Died from injuries
Hamsa, daughter of Huseyin,
wife of Huseyin			Died from injuries

 
 List of raped women at Istuci village in life:

Sabo, daughter of Maho		Virgin
Miri, other daughter of Maho	Virgin
Emine, daughter of Meho, wife
of Sofi Salih
Sahap, daughter of Ali, wife 
of Nevruz
Gullu, daughter of Mahi		Virgin


 List of persons attacked by Armenian gangs:

 (a long list)"

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:32:19 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.rights.human
Subject: Can't have it both ways.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:32:19 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <Bzn1uA.CM3@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:

>For years before the invasion, Turkish governments and others favouring
>the partition of Cyprus had propounded the cynical opinion that "Greeks

Are you related to "arromdian" of ASALA/SDPA/ARF?

Source: THE INDEPENDENT, 11 August 1992
        page 14, Letters to the Editor

Brigadier Michael  Harbottle

Sir: The decision  hangs in  the  balance as to  whether or not a
United  Nations peace enforcement operation is to  be mounted  in
Bosnia-Herzegovina  as a safeguard to the humanitarian  operation
already  under way. It is perfectly legitimate for  force  to  be
used  in self-defence,  but anything more  sophisticated and more
aggressive needs very careful and deep study.

A full-scale operation  with tens of thousands  of troops appears
to  be under  consideration, but  can such  a deployment  has any
chance of success?  If one draws on the German  army's failure in
the in the  Second World War to subdue the  partisans, divided as
they were, it is difficult to believe that a mixed UN force would
be any  more successful  at overcoming  the opposition  in Bosnia
today.

It  is certainly  improbable  that such  a military  intervention
would deter  the Serbian forces. We  only have to go  back to the
Fifties and  Cyprus and  remind ourselves how  a handful  of EOKA
fighters, not more than 200 all  told, held at bay between 12,000
and  15,000   British  soldiers  for   four  years.  I   ask  the
decision-makers to  be very wary  about committing the UN  to yet
another  dangerous,  and  probably abortive,  exercise  in  peace
enforcement.

Instead,  there is  a  lesser option  open  to the  UN.  It is  a
standing  principle  of  all  UN  peace-keeping  operations  that
self-defence can be  used in the face of any  attack, or imminent
threat  of  attack,  to   safeguard  UN  soldiers'  lives,  their
positions and  equipment and  the force's  ability to  fulfil its
mandate.

There is no requirement to seek a Security Council resolution; it
is a standing operating procedure.

IN CYPRUS IN 1967, AT THE  VILLAGE OF MELOUSHA, THE GREEK CYPRIOT
NATIONAL GUARD WAS  MARCHING ON THE VILLAGE  TO APPREHEND TURKISH
CYPRIOT FIGHTERS  ALLEGED TO BE  THERE. THE UN  POSITIONED TROOPS
BETWEEN THE  NATIONAL GUARD AND  THE VILLAGE, AND WARNED  THAT IF
THE NATIONAL GUARD CAME WITHIN 200 YARDS OF THE UN POSITIONS, THE
TROOPS WOULD  USE FORCE IN  SELF-DEFENCE TO PREVENT AN  ATTACK ON
THE  VILLAGE. THE  NATIONAL GUARD  HALTED 250  YARDS FROM  THE UN
POSITIONS AND LATER RETURNED TO BARRACKS. THE DETERRENT EFFECT OF
THE INTENTION TO  USE FORCE TO UPHOLD THE  MANDATE WAS SUFFICIENT
TO PREVENT WHAT COULD HAVE BECOME AN ACT OF GENOCIDE.

If one applies this principle  to today's situation in and around
Sarajevo, it would be perfectly  legitimate for the UN to provide
a  self-defence  capability  to   ensure  that  the  humanitarian
operation's  mandate  is secured  and  the  UN positions  on  the
airport and  the relief  convoys protected. It  could do  this by
employing  helicopter  gunships,  assisted by  spotter  aircraft,
against the Serbian artillery and mortar positions from which the
shelling  comes. In  the  context of  self-defence,  it would  be
sufficient  for the  aerial attacks  to be  directed against  the
weapons themselves and not against  the troop positions. It would
be enough to destroy the enemy's fire-power capability, and could
provide an adequate deterrent against further attacks on the UN.

It may be argued that even if this were effective, it would solve
only part of  the problem. It is for the  decision-makers to make
up their minds as to what they want; to ensure the implementation
of  the humanitarian  operation as  the mandate  requires, or  to
carry the fight to the  Serbian forces, involving the probability
of a war of attrition with an inconclusive result.

Yours faithfully,

MICHAEL HARBOTTLE
Director
The Centre for International
Peace-building
Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire
9 August

The writer was Chief of Staff of the UN
Peace-keeping Force in Cyprus, 1966-68.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:33:36 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.rights.human
Subject: "Greek Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies".
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:33:36 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <Bzn6Mt.9w6@cs.columbia.edu> vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:

>it is undisputable that Greece treats the minority rather well (i.e. they
>have (relative) freedom of religion, they are allowed to speak their own

Bring tears to my eyes.

"Greece's Housing Policies Worry Western Thrace Turks"

...Newly built houses belonging to members of the minority
community in Dedeagac province, had, he said, been destroyed
by Evros province public works department on Dec. 4.

Sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the
security forces during the demolition.

"This is not the first demolition in Dedeagac province; more
than 40 houses were destroyed there between 1979-1984 and 
members of that minority community were made homeless," he
continued. 

"Greek Government Rail-Roads Two Turkish Ethnic Deputies"

While World Human Rights Organizations Scream, Greeks 
Persistently Work on Removing the Parliamentary Immunity
of Dr. Sadik Ahmet and Mr. Ahmet Faikoglu.

In his 65-page confession, Salman Demirok, a former chief of PKK
operations in Hakkari confessed that high-level relations between
PKK, Greece and Greek Cypriot administration existed.

According to Demirok, Greek Cypriot administration not only 
gives shelter to PKK guerillas but also supplies them with 
food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory. 
Demirok disclosed that PKK has three safe houses in South Cyprus, 
used by terrorists such as Ferhat. In the camps, he added, 
terrorists were trained to use various weapons including RPG's 
and anti-aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from 
the Greek government. Greek Cypriot government has gone to the 
extent of issuing special identification cards to PKK members so 
that they can travel from one region to another without being 
confronted by legal obstacles. Demirok's account was confirmed 
by another PKK defector, Fatih Tan, who gave himself over to 
police in Hakkari after spending four years with PKK. Tan explained
that the terrorists went through a training in camps in South Cyprus, 
sometimes for a period of 12 weeks or more.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:35:04 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.rights.human
Subject: Such recognition is ample for the time being.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:35:04 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1992Dec22.042615.9607@random.ccs.northeastern.edu> deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta) writes:

>Yes, I agree with you that TRNC is a fact. A fact that only Turkey accepts!

It is true that the Turkish sector in Cyprus is recognized
as a state by Turkiye only. Such recognition is ample
for the time being. The preferable hope for the future 
is the formation of a bona fide federation that will
afford equal and guaranteed chances of survival to both
sides.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:36:14 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" has made "Armenian" synonymous with "murderer".
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:36:14 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1h7mf3INNmnu@network.ucsd.edu> dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins) writes:

>I used to have his home address and telephone number too, but I seem to
>have misplaced it (and he has since unlisted it). A convienent location 

"ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle" in action. Not a
chance. Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million 
Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that 
genocide. You, and those like you, will not get away with the genocide's 
cover-up. No way.

During the years of World War I, the Armenian dictators have planned
and perpetrated the genocide of the Turkish people, which not only took 
the lives of 2.5 million Muslims, but was also the method used to empty
the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. To this day, Turkish historic
lands remain occupied by the Armenian government. In order to cover up 
the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish homeland, which is the
crux of Turkish political demands, x-Soviet Armenia continues its 
anti-Turkish policy in the following ways:

1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide
in order to shift international public opinion away from its political
responsibility.

2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing pseudo-scholars, ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism
and Revisionism Triangle, and terrorists attempts to call into question 
the veracity of the Turkish Genocide.

3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to 
silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests.

4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet
Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through
terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters
of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian.

Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian government 
is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from
making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue.

Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian government and its terrorist
and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle 
of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the Armenians,
the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and 
consequently a number of governments and organizations have become 
supportive of the recognition of the Turkish Genocide.


Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and Alexander 
 Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. 
 Almost the whole city is destroyed. The smell of the corpses still fills 
 the air. Although there are speculations that Armenian gangs murdered 
 Austrian and German prisoners as well, I could not get the supporting 
 evidence in this regard, but there is proof of murdering of Turkish 
 prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:37:38 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Traditional and historical Armenian barbarism and racism.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:37:38 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <Bzn449.rv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> This is the so called pezeveng rationale. It's "proper" and "tastefull."

Let us examine it - shall we? The following is the complete translated 
text of a letter written in 1990 by the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and 
Revisionism Triangle of the United States in reaction to the 75th Turkish 
public demonstrations which took place on the 76th anniversary of the 
Armenian Genocide of the Turkish People.


"Oh! You low down creature Turks, you dirty bastards of humanity. Like 
 a flock of stupid cows, for the sake of your ulterior motives, you 
 have even inoculated your cradled children with the poison of the 
 snake. You spread your poison everywhere.

 Oh! You bunch of ungrateful pigs, degenerate profit seekers, betrayers 
 of your race, you Turk, problem of your race. You have been driven away
 from seven places. For fifty years you have been in the cradle of 
 humanity, still you could not be human; you brainless jackasses.

 You say that the Armenians massacred you. You commit errors taller 
 than your height. Who are you competing with? What do you want and 
 from whom? You do not know what you want and from whom.

 With your baseless digging and dangerous meetings you become a laughing
 stock of the entire world. You brainless jackasses.

 Now, of all the races of the world, the Aryan Armenian, possessor of 
 noble reputation, relying on the power of the gun and the Church, is 
 waiting in line to slay a few million God damn Turks.

 God damn Turks, we are once and for all going to wipe you from the face
 of the earth. This is a legacy left to us by our holy Dashnaks and 
 Hunchaks.

 Oh! Christian world knows this well: The world will never have peace 
 until we have destroyed these miserable Turkish people on the face of 
 the world.

 For the love of Jesus, if you kill one Turk you will qualify for 
 heaven.

 Oh! You fake, coward, Turks; you load mouth Kurds. You enter a village 
 where there is no dog, and strike left and right without a cane.

 Where are these jackass Turks? What are they waiting for? If you can, 
 why don't you take from Armenia Erivan, Djul, Alexandropol, Hadjin, 
 and Hortye; you coward troublemakers. The Aryan Armenian power is 
 waiting for you.

 In the very near future, with the help of Christ and the help of the 
 Soviet Union, we will turn Turkey into a graveyard. This also you shall
 learn, that Jesus has placed the faith of the Turkish people in the 
 palm of the Aryan Armenian.

 You should know this well: Neither your swords, nor your Allah, nor 
 any nation is able to save you from our hands.

 A few Kurds in Soviet Armenia are slaves in our hands; they are our 
 sheep to be slaughtered.

 Oh! You Muslim fox hoards, your seven mosques represent all the Muslim 
 mosques. We are going to destroy them over your head and hang your 
 leaders by their feet.

 As to your religious leaders, we will spill their guts in the streets 
 as we did during the World War I. Let the entire world be spectators 
 and see the mighty power of Aryan Armenia which equals the power of 
 the whole world.

 Oh! You ungodly miserables, either you are going to become Christian 
 and accept the true religion, or we will eliminate you from the face 
 of this earth.

 Now, this is your fate, don't depend on the European and Middle Eastern
 nations, or the United States.

 Only we can bring you to the true fate.

 Only you know, very well, the sharp cutting edge of the Aryan Armenian 
 sword.

 When you commemorate the memory of your martyrs, you can add this 
 document as an announcement to the world."


                        The ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and 
                        Revisionism Triangle. 
	                U.S.A.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:39:33 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Russian archives on the Armenian Genocide of 2.5 million Muslims.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:39:33 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <scg.725016764@cs.wisc.edu> UCNICK@UMUC.BITNET <Nick Gavrielatos@harvard.harvard.edu> writes:

>Just a second, let me get a good one... (I am pushing now)...
>AAAAAaaaahhhhhh.... what a relief.... I know it didnt sound
>too much, but this spcific kind does not have a lot of sound..
>That's why is called SBD meaning Silent, But Deadly! :-)

Must have been the "Kazim" miracle. And it's the "Gav*0"s broken 
nose here that counts. Referring to notes from the personal diary 
of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers 
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish 
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer 
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The Russians, who have had considerable relations with the Armenians
 hold a somewhat different opinion about the Armenians. The Armenians
 are in fact a despicable community, without any significant value.
 These people can only continue their survival by exploiting others.
 Moreover, the Russian peasants have their own opinions about the
 Armenians.

 I have frequently heard it said among Russian soldiers that the
 Armenians are as rough as bears...Among the Russian troops, the
 Armenians had always been considered as inferior. Those people
 prefer to do anything rather than go to the front to fight. The
 attempts at desertion among the Armenians and self-inflicted wounds
 to avoid going to the war have justified this opinion.

 The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to 
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The 
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be 
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men 
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were 
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. 
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk. 

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would 
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the 
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same 
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the 
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. 
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. 

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers.

 The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
 nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
 be undone."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:41:19 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Nazi Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:41:19 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <199212210416.AA23437@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>(shivering at the thought of an Arxid-less Christmas)

I certainly hope not, at any rate. Germany had shown interest in 
nationalities, as a tool to dismember the Russian empire, back in 
World War I. In the time between the two World Wars, expelled leaders 
of Soviet nationalities were lobbying the capitals of European powers 
to gain support for their respective causes. Already in 1936, the SS 
Headquarters (Reichssicherheitshauptamt) had created bureaus (Vertrauensstellen)
to contact emigrants and oversee their activities. The Vertrauensstellen
for the Caucasus was led by the Armenian Deirajr Froundjian and the
Georgian Lado Achmeteli.[1] 

Shortly after the occupation of Warsaw and Paris, the German Abwehr
(Secret Service) assumed ties with exiled leaders of diverse Soviet
nationalities, among them Armenian Dashnags.[2] One of the leaders
of the Dashnaktzoutun, the aforementioned General Dro 'the butcher'
(Drastamat Kanajan) began working relationship with the Nazis around 
that time.

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), 'Zwischen Hakenkreuz und
    Sowjetstern,' (Droste Verlag Duesseldorf 1971), p.37
[2] Ibid., p. 84.
 
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:42:29 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Educating Armenians according to the spirit of the Nazi ideas.
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:42:29 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <199212220440.AA03704@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>*****************************************************************
>* END OF RIDICULOUS ANALOGY. IT WAS ONLY A FAR FETCHED EXAMPLE. *
>* IF I COULD THINK OF SOMETHING BETTER I WOULD. NO FLAMES PLS.  *
>*****************************************************************

I really disagree with you. But maybe you know better, "sipa of delco".
In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus.
A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 02:44:23 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:44:23 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BznF6o.I5@cs.columbia.edu> vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:

>>The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish minority. 
>>They pursue the same denial in connection with the Macedonians of 
>>Greece. The Greeks deny the existence of the Turks there - despite the 

>That should make my point on the original article pretty clear. When you
>deny something pretty much obvious, like the Turkish/Muslim minority, you
>lose your credibility to the outside world. As a result, you get claims

That's why the Greek governments must be held to account for the 
sub-human conditions of the Turkish minority living in the Western 
Thrace under the brutal Greek domination. The religious persecution, 
cultural oppression and economical ex-communication applied to the 
Turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human rights 
abuse widespread in Greece.

Wait, there is more.

    "Torture in Greece: Hidden Reality"

Case 1: Kostas Andreadis and Dimitris Voglis.

...Andreadis' head was covered with a hood and he was tortured
by falanga (beating on the soles of the feet), electric shocks,
and was threatened with being thrown out of the window. An 
official medical report clearly documented this torture....

Case 2: Horst Bosniatzki, a West German Citizen.

...At midnight he was taken to the beach, chains were put to his 
feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea. He was dragged
along the beach for about a 1.5 Km while being punched on the 
head and kidneys...Back on the police station, he was beaten
on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips
split open....

Case 3: Torture of Dimitris Voglis.

Case 4: Brothers Vangelis (16) and Christos Arabatzis (12),
        Vasilis Papadopoulos (13), and Kostas Kiriazis (13).

Case 5: Torture of Eight Students at Thessaloniki Police
        Headquarters.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd Mon Dec 23 05:10:47 1992 
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.history
Subject: IMPOSTOR WRITES: "Renegade Hebrew" Who Committed Genocide on Armenians
Summary: response to a fool!
Keywords: Nogales Bey, Inspector-General of Turkish Forces in Armenia, WWI
Date: 23 Dec 92 05:10:47 GMT
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies

In article <cB95VB1x346w@Beneath.the.Crescent> AN IMPOSTOR, Nogales_Bey@Beneath.
the.Crescent (Rafael De Nogales) wrote, apparently in response to one of my
dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) postings, wrote:

[IMPOSTOR] Recently 'mr ignorant slut' said:

Have you heard of dos2unix? It seems not, given the number of ctrl-Ms in your
posting...speaking of ignorant! 

[DD] You sir, were fooled. I personally refuted every bit of his revisionism,
[DD] exposed every one of his omissions, deletions, etc. I guess you never
[IMPOSTOR]                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And who OMITTED and DELETED and COVERED-UP his/her/its name in this posting!!!

[IMPOSTOR] and quoted from my book:

[DD] [1] _Four Years Beneath the Crescent_ Rafael De Nogalas, Inspector General
[DD] of Turkish Forces in Armenia and Military Governor of Egyptian Sinai 
[DD] During the War, Translated from the Spanish by Muna Lee, Charles 
[DD] Scribner's Sons, New York, London, 1926, page 17

[IMPOSTOR] But he "forgot"(i.e. 'omissions, deletions, etc') to quote this:
[IMPOSTOR] 
[IMPOSTOR]  "Had the Armenians been more prudent and less ambitious, they would
[IMPOSTOR]   probably control Turkey today. But they set themselves to star-
[IMPOSTOR]   chasing and tried to subdue the Turks of the eastern provinces,..."

No, Mr. IMPOSTOR, I just didn't the entire page, just like YOU didn't quote the
enire page!

[IMPOSTOR] Yes you guessed right the page number is, again, '17'.

[IMPOSTOR] He didn't have the guts to quote this either:
[IMPOSTOR]
[IMPOSTOR]    "there can be no doubt that the Turk, in spite of all his
[IMPOSTOR]     defects, is the first soldier and the first gentleman of
[IMPOSTOR]     the Orient,"

You who posts as an IMPOSTER, refer to others as "not having the guts"? You
coward!

[IMPOSTOR]
[IMPOSTOR] and again, I finished my book saying:
[IMPOSTOR]
[IMPOSTOR]   "As the last shoreline vanished my thoughts were filled with
[IMPOSTOR]    memories of the valor, devotion and uncomplaining sacrifice
[IMPOSTOR]    of the Turkish soldier. Suddenly I felt as if an icy hand
[IMPOSTOR]    had vehemently grasped my heart; and without reasoning why,
[IMPOSTOR]    I stood at attention and saluted those rose-tinted horizons
[IMPOSTOR]    and orange blossom skies which swung now like a veil before
[IMPOSTOR]    the land where I was leaving so many brave comrades sleeping
[IMPOSTER]    the sleep of death beneath the flowery sod of its mountains
[IMPOSTER]    and the burning sands of its deserts..."

[IMPOSTER] Merry Christmas to the first soldier and the first gentleman of
[IMPOSTOR] the Orient,

[IMPOSTOR] Nogales Bey

So, Mr. IMPOSTER, what is your point? Since you don't have a point, please
explain what the REAL De Nogales said on pages 26-27:

 "And while speaking of the Turkish army let me add, with no fear whatever of
  being mistaken, that the regular army of the Ottomans was entirely innocent
  of the Armenian massacres. It not only disapproved of these massacres, but
  would even have prevented them forcibly if it had been able to do do. It
  would not only be an injustice, but contrary to the truth in every sense of
  the word, to look upon the army as an accomplice to, or to try to make it 
  responsible for, the errors committed by some of its members who formed part
  of the Committee of Union and Progress. Among the civil members of that
  Committee, only one conspicuous by force of personality, that was the
  renegade Hebrew (donme) of Salonika, Talaat, the principal organizer of the 
  massacres and deportations, who fishing in muddy waters, succeeded in raising
  himself from the humble rank of postal clerk to that of Grand Vizer of the 
  Empire. The other civil members of that organization such as, for example, 
  Dr. Nazim, and Ramy and Bedri Beys, were only fallen angles who, unable to 
  resist temptation, permitted themselves to be converted from upright men into
  ogres, their blood-stained hands laden with gold." [1]

             -- Inspector General of the Turkish Forces in Armenia, Nogales Bey

			- - - reference - - -

[1] _Four Years Beneath the Crescent_ Rafael De Nogales, Inspector General of
    Turkish Forces in Armenia and Military Governor of Egyptian Sinai During 
    the War, Translated from the Spanish by Muna Lee, Charles Scribner's Sons,
    New York, London, 1926, pages 26-27


-- 
David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org> | "We want to return to our homes, we 
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  don't want Kurdistan to be an Armenia." 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  -Iraqi Kurdish Leader Jalal Talabani
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   April 24, 1991 

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd        

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:02:59 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: On the eve of 78th Anniversary Commemoration of the Turkish Genocide.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:02:59 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <schoinas.725008240@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>>I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
>>about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
>>suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
>>a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
>>documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
>>unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
>>However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
>>is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
>>and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.

Likewise, Faruk.

>Yes, it is Christmas and it's this time of the year that miracles do

Out of the frying pan, into the spilt milk is more this clown.
For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish people 
lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the 
oppressive Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions
culminated in 1914: The Armenian Government (Dashnaks and
Hunchaks) planned and carried out a Genocide against its 
Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were murdered
and the remainder driven out of their homeland. After one
thousand years, Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks
and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated 
by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide 
against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations 
to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands, to determine 
their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
 section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
 were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great 
 fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
 smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
 Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
 unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
 the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."

p. 203 (second paragraph).

"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the 
 ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
 it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
 The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
 sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
 other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
 dead."

p. 204 (first paragraph).

"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
 a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
 my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
 that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
 a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
 Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
 throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
 year old."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:07:25 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human
Subject: Role of "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" in the murder of Muslim people.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:07:25 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1992Dec22.065650.18040@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:

> You missed one more explanation: That they choose to study in Turkey.
> Which is actually, by far, the case. Like in Greece for the greeks from

This joker is hilarious. How about the criminals of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF
Terrorism Triangle?

 "...that more people have to die..." 

                    ASALA/SDPA/ARF <91@urartu.UUCP>

  "Yes, I stated this and stand by it."

                    ASALA/SDPA/ARF <255@urartu.UUCP>

Source: Edward K. Boghosian, "Radical Group Hosts Well-Attended Solidarity
Meeting," The Armenian Reporter, May 1, 1986, pp. 1 & 18.

ATHENS, Greece - An array of representatives of Greek political parties,
including the ruling PASOK party, and a host of political groups, both
Armenian and non-Armenian, joined to voice their solidarity with the 
Armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new
Armenian political force were voiced here on Sunday, April 20 during
the 2nd International Meeting of Solidarity with the Armenian People. And
judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these
political groups and organizations, at least here in Greece, the Armenian
Cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world.

The International Meeting of Solidarity was sponsored by the Greek branch of
the Armenian Popular Movement, a comparatively new political force headed
by younger generations of Armenians, who openly profess their support of the
armed struggle and of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia
(ASALA). The organization has branches in various European and Middle Eastern
countries and the United States although some of these branches appear to
have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks
of ASALA...

Voicing the support of PASOK, the ruling party in Greece, to the Armenian
people, was Mr. Charalambidi Michalis, a member of the Central Committee of
the party and the Greek member of the Permanent People's Tribunal...
Explaining the goals and aspirations of the Armenian Popular Movement 
was Ara Sarkisian. Significant was the address delivered by Mr. Bassam 
Abu-Salim, on behalf of the Popular Front for the movement's continued 
support of the Armenians' armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause, 
pledging that Palestinian operated and run training camps would always be 
open to Armenian youth who need training for such a struggle. Later, Mr. 
Abu-Salim, answering a question put to him by this writer, affirmed that 
his organization had always trained Armenian members of ASALA and that
this policy will continue. "The doors of our camps are always open to 
Armenian freedom fighters," he affirmed.

Among the prominent Greek politicians who attended the conference was the son
of Prime Minister Papandreou, who himself holds a post in the Greek cabinet;
two members of the Cypriot Parliament who had journeyed to Athens for the
specific purpose of attending the international gathering; representatives of
the Christian Democratic party, EDIK Center party, two wings of the Communist
party, representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations,
a number of mayors of Greek towns and cities; two Greek members of the
European Parliament and other members of the Greek Parliament were also among
those who participated in the international conference. Also on hand to follow
the deliberations was the ambassador of Bulgaria in Athens.

More than significant was the large number of messages received by the 
organizers, including the following: Palestinian National Revolutionary
Movement, Fatah; Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General
Command; the Central Committee of the Palestinian National Liberation
Movement-Fatah; the Socialist Progressive Party of Lebanon; Arab Socialist
Labor Party; the Kurdistan Democratic Union of Iraq; and numerous other
international groups, all noted for their radical stand in the Israeli-
Palestinian conflict.

                 SUPPORT FROM ARF-RM

Among messages received from Armenian groups was the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation-Revolutionary Movement, the group that has claimed the abduction
and assassination of key party leaders in Lebanon accused of selling out to
foreign interests and powers. The message clearly gave its support to the
Armenian Popular Movement pledging that the Revolutionary movement will
continue to "reveal the realities, no matter how bitter or tragic they are,"
to expose the anti-Armenian activities of the leaders of the Dashnag "Bureau."
The message was taken as an indication of the link, loose as it may be, that
exists between the dissident Dashnag group and the Armenian Popular Movement,
open supporters of ASALA and armed struggle.

The Armenian Popular Movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the
Greek capital, known as Neos Kosmos, where there is a large Armenian presence.
The headquarters are located in a two-story building, which appears to have
turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of Armenian youth, who
prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves...

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:05:09 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: A common denominator between "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" terrorists and...
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:05:09 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BznCsv.2wu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Could you explain to me why they now feel Turks, and they didn't did so
> few years ago?  And why do you thing that all of them support Sadik?

It is so nonsensical. Why should the Turks trust "Gav*0s"?
Another important development of the past 4 years is the apparent
relocation of ASALA's headquarter away from war-torn Beirut to
the more peaceful surroundings of Athens, Greece and Nicosia,
Cyprus. Operating from their new locations under the rubric
of the 'Armenian Popular Movement,' this, the most violent of
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle, enjoys considerable
support from the Greek Governments. Two major conferences held
by this organization in Athens have benefited from the participation
of a number of prominent Greek politicians, including that of
the son of Papandreou, himself a member of the Cabinet. 

Indeed, the extent of Greek Government cooperation with the
ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists also caused the U.S. Department of
State to issue a strong warning as to the danger inherent in
this policy. 

Source: Alan Cowell, 'U.S. & Greece in Dispute on Terror,' The New
        York Times, June 27, 1987, p. 4.

                    Special to The New York Times

ATHENS, June 26 - A dispute developed today between Athens and 
Washington over United States intelligence reports saying that 
Athens, for several months, conducted negotiations with the
terrorist known as Abu Nidal...

They said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard
intelligence reports.

Abu Nidal leads the Palestinian splinter group Al Fatah 
Revolutionary Council, implicated in the 1985 airport 
bombings at Rome and Vienna that contributed to the Reagan 
Administration's decision to bomb Tripoli, Libya, last year.

In Washington, State Department officials said that when
Administration officials learned about the contacts, the
State Department drafted a strongly worded demarche. The
officials also expressed unhappiness with Greece's dealings
with ASALA, the Armenian Liberation Army, which has carried
out terrorist acts against Turks....

Source: "Hagop Hagopian said to have been part of 1972 Terror Attack at
Munich Olympic Games," The Armenian Reporter, February 7, 1985, p. 1.

"Le Matin, the influential Paris daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Hagop Hagopian, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA),
was among the Arab terrorists who staged an attack on the living quarters
of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games...

Le Matin added that up to 1982, Hagopian operated out of Beirut, Lebanon,
but escaped from the country when Israeli forces entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by ASALA claimed that Mr. Hagopian
was dead of wounds suffered during a bombing by the Israeli Air Force,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Damascus, Syria, and
Athens, Greece. The paper also noted that the socialist government of
Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou and his P.A.S.O.K. party accepted the
Armenian underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance simply because of Greece's traditional enmity with Turkey.

Le Matin further adds that ASALA derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy Armenians who support the cause, with the rest 
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
drug trafficking. The paper asserts that Bulgarian authorities also assist
ASALA in obtaining all types of weapons that are used against Turkish targets 
and diplomats."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:08:37 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Let the Jews speak for themselves.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:08:37 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <schoinas.725007459@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>Do you care to explain to me the difference between settlers
>and conquerors? 

Allow me...

Source: Mark Alan Epstein, 'The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role
        in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries,' Klaus Schwarz Werlag,
        Freiburg (1980).

  page 19:

 <<During the fifteenth century, when the Ottomans were struggling to
  reestablish themselves in the Balkans, there was considerable turmoil
  among the Jewish communities in Central and Western Europe. Even if
  the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the
  fourteenth are minimized, it is easy to understand the attraction which
  Ottoman life, particularly when compared to life in Europe, held for the
  Jews. There is no way to tell how many Jews left Christendom for the
  realm of the rising Muslim Ottomans, but with each account of persecution
  in or expulsion from Christian countries it is recorded that some Jews
  fled to Ottoman territory. The regularity of these reports suggests that
  the Ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that
  there was a regular trickle of Jewish families moving southward and
  eastward from Western and Central Europe. (...) It is evident that the
  effects of plague, late crusades, and the general intolerance and
  persecution of Jews in Christian Europe resulted in the redirection
  of the whole focus of Jewish life which, for more than two centuries,
  was to be oriented toward Muslim East.>>

  page 21:

  <<In the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official
  in the  Edirne Jewish community was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati the Ashkenazi
  Chief Rabbi of the city. He was the most important rabbi in the city and
  the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation
  of the Edirne Jewry in the fifteenth century. Sarfati himself was from
  Christian Europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two
  recent arrivals from there, who, upon seeing the prosperity and freedom
  of the Ottoman Jews, prevailed upon him to write their European
  coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate.
  This remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant
  conditions in the Ottoman domains, but described as well the ease of
  travel to Palestine and the holy places, an attraction to those who
  would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there.>> (*)

  page 41:

 <<...the impression gained from the Hebrew sources is that the Jews were
 firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them
 and the Ottomans, especially in comparison to relations with the Christians
 of Europe.

 Confirmation of the commonality of interests between Muslims and Jews is
 also indicated by the fact that European Christians perceived the Jews
 as allies of Islam and were well aware of Muslim-Jewish cooperation.
 Certainly the activity of important Jewish financiers and politicians
 representing the Ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed. European
 sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers. In addition
 it appears that Christian pirates plundered ''Turks and Jews,''  their
 sworn enemies, and that Europeans considered the Jews to be agents who
 regularly reported to the Ottomans.

 There are well-known examples of overt Jewish support for the Ottomans
 in the struggle against European powers. The two best known instances
 of Jewish support for the campaigning Ottomans are the frequently cited
 instances of the Jewish contributions to the conquests of Buda, in the
 early sixteenth century, and of Rhodes. We also have reports of sympathy
 for the Ottomans during the siege of Chios. An unpublished Ottoman
 document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some
 Greek towns...>>

 page 43:

  <<It is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally
 accepted fact that the interests of Jews and Muslims coincided frequently,
 and all parties involved, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, were aware of
 the situation.>>

 page 46:

 <<...it seems that the relations between Greeks and Jews were not
 particularly cordial. The two groups had little in common, few common
 interests, and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition
 which could serve as the basis for cooperation, rather than enmity. If
 there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between
 religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, it was
 that between Muslims and Jews, neither of whom had much in common with
 the Orthodox.>>

 page 46:

 <<The general impression of Muslim-Jewish relations in the Ottoman context
 during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of
 interests. From the earliest times the Ottomans seem to have welcomed
 Jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already
 existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element. The Jewish
 response to this tolerance was a steady flow of Jews from Christian
 countries to Ottoman domains.>>

 page 151:

  <<From the period before 1453 we have only a few indications that the
  Ottoman-Jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would
  characterize it for years afterward, but the liberality of the Ottomans,
  in contrast to the intolerance of the Byzantines, and the protection and
  the security which the Ottomans offered, in comparison to conditions
  elsewhere, leave little doupt that even then both the Ottomans and the
  Jews recognized their mutual interests...>>

  page 161:

  <<It is impossible to say how fundamental the Jews were in the success
  of the Ottomans in rebuilding Istanbul or in Ottoman mercantile success
  in the sixteenth century. That they played an important role in both
  cannot be doupted. It is also unclear whether they were important enough
  to say that the Ottomans would not have experienced their great success
  without the Jews and that no other group could have been found to serve
  the Ottomans as well as did the Jews. It is, however, unmistakably clear
  that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable
  partnership between Jews and the non-Jewish society in which they lived.
  We must conclude that the Ottomans could probably not achieved their
  success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the
  Jews did. Certainly for the Jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries
  the Ottoman Empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home.>>


(*) A version of Rabbi Sarfati's [Tzarfati] letter is given by Prof.Shaw:

  page 32:

  <<Your cries and sobs reached us. We have been told of all the troubles
  and persecutions which you have to suffer in the German lands....I hear
  the lamentation of my brethren...The barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly
  oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people...The priests and
  prelates of Rome have risen. They wish to root out the memory of Jacob
  and erase the name of Israel. They always devise new persecutions. They
  wish to bring you to the stake...Listen my brethren, to the counsel I will
  give you. I too was born in Germany and studied Torah with the German
  rabbis. I was driven out of my native country and came to the Turkish land,
  which is blessed by God and filled with all good things. Here I found rest
  and happiness; Turkey can also become for you the land of peace...If you
  who live in Germany knew even a tenth of what God has blessed us with
  in this land, you would not consider any difficulties; you would set out
  to come to us...Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain
  of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver in our hands. We are
  not oppressed with heavy taxes, and our commerce is free and unhindered.
  Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap, and every one of us
  lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow
  hat as a badge of shame, as is the case in Germany, where even wealth and
  great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy
  among the Christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him
  to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect
  your forces, and come to us. Here you will be free of your enemies, here
  you will find rest...>>[13]

[13] Israel Zinberg, A History Of Jewish Literature. vol.V. The Jewish
     Center of Culture in the Ottoman Empire (Hebrew Union College Press,
     Ktav Publishers, New York, 1974).

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:10:03 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Armenians declared themselves as the members of the Aryan super race.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:10:03 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1h7jeqINNh2p@network.ucsd.edu> dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins) writes:

>This neck of the woods too. In fact as soon as I posted that quote I 
>realized I was baited into doing it and quickly -- within a couple of

That is the result of watching "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" Nazi Armenian movies too 
much. In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the 
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party 
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by 
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.

Source: "Adventures in the Near East, 1918-1922" by A. Rawlinson,
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) 
(287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 184 (second paragraph)

 "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
  had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as 
  I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their 
  treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from 
  Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not 
  be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their 
  troops being without discipline and not under effective control, 
  atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should 
  with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."

p. 177 (third paragraph)

 "Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
  Moslem villages in the plain...."

 "Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
  plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
  their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
  and protection..."

p. 178 (first paragraph)

 "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched 
  for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of 
  such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible 
  tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as 
  to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware 
  of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."

p. 179 (first paragraph)

 "Shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared. There 
  were in all about 200 persons, mostly old men and women and children, 
  with a few ox-carts, ponies, and donkeys, carrying all their worldly 
  possessions, except a few sheep that they were driving before them. 
  Their leader interviewed Bekir Bey, and was told to keep farther on 
  into the hills, where he would be able to cross the frontier into 
  Turkey unmolested by his enemies."

p. 181 (first paragraph)

 "the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with 
  artillery, with probably a large force in support."

p. 175 (first paragraph)

 "The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
  that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
  Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
  British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
  commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
  the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
  pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
  In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
  to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
  be referred to in due course.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:11:36 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: The Armenian genocide of 204,000 Azeris: Where was "Travesty Int'l"?
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:11:36 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzoEux.1F6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>  I bet she does have a lot of respect for Arxid.  After all, this is the
>  so called pezeveng rationale. You "take it or leave it." 

It seems we agree on principle. The Baku massacres dwarf in horror and 
death the comparable events in the Baltic Republics which received far 
more Western publicity. Visiting the graves of the Baku martyrs
in the hillside above the city must be the first thing one should
do upon arriving in Azerbaijan. Terrorist Armenian army frequently
carries over unprovoked attacks against Azeri villages, causing 
considerable loss of life and massive flight of Azeris out of the
region. Just three weeks after the Armenian massacre of a 3-year-old
Azeri baby in her bed, a bomb was thrown into an Azeri home, killing
yet another Turkish baby. 

The Armenians tore apart the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces,
massacred 2.5 million defenseless Turkish women, children and elderly 
people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages and exterminated 
the entire Turkish population of the Armenian dictatorship between 
1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today 
in Armenia brings a depth and verification to the Turkish genocide 
that is hard to match. A hundred years ago Armenians again thought 
they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the 
Russian anarchists that they accepted as role models. Several Armenian 
terror groups like ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle 
resorted to the same tactics in the 1980s, butchering scores of innocent
Turks and their families in the United States and Europe. It seems that 
they are doing it again, at a different scale, in communist Armenia 
today.

>
 The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
 -------------------------------------------
>
 Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
 the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
 Agdam
 ------
>
 Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
 roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
 times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
 the map.
>
 .......
>
 As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
 Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
 that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
 the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
 apart.
 .......
>
 I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
 people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
 a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
 town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
 her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
 .......
>
 "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
 the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
 said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
 wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
 the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
 ......
>
 "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
 There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
 all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
 just entered their trap."
>
 The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
 forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
 the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
 as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
 towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
 from the Armenians.
>
 "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
 in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
 daughter fall right by me."
>
 People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
 loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
 daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
 Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
 tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
 were caught in "crossfire".
 .......
>

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:12:53 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: "Mid-morning express" of "dcs.glasgow" and Armenian-Nazi collaboration.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:12:53 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BznuJL.AqE@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>What you think Mutlu ^H^H^H^H^HCosar^H^H^H^H^HArgic has something sensible
>to say??? Wow!! WOnders will never cease!!

Wow. "Morning the porno" is back. Ran out of "mid-morning express porno"
material?

 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. Every issue embroiders
 the themes of enmity towards Turkey and towards Turks.

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:14:25 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: "Sipa of delco": An impressive example of historical revisionism.
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:14:25 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <9212221446.AA02278@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>I bet you have a lot of respect for someone that does not listen to   
>arguments (argumentation? ouch!), does not even have the arxidia to 
>post under his own name, 

You have already demonstrated ample willingness to put your foot
where your mouth is (repeatedly so). But, I still fail to see how
you can challenge the Jewish and Armenian scholars on the Armenian 
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
 Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
 Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
 World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
 to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
 invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
 success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
 Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
 soldiers began deserting in droves."

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
        Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.

"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
 plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the 
 president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:

 'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the 
  glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
  arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
  Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
  under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
  who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
  free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]

Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."

[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.

"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
 the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
 accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"

[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1, 
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.

"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it 
 appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
 able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
 civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
 the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
 Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
 Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new 
 Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
 crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
 no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"

[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.

[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915; 
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 04:15:46 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: "Morning the crook" has a world class image problem. Why?
Date: 23 Dec 92 04:15:46 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <Bzo621.1BE@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>Yes I do think so, Mutlu is full of crap - simple as that.

Don't worry "morning the crook" of "dcs.glasgow"; troglodytism does not 
necessarily imply a low cultural level. It'll be a long decade for you.
In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the 
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the
Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be
included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers.
Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours 
red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'

[1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, 
    Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach
    Freiburg 1976), p. 172.

The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in 
the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively 
recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of one 
thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. 
The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In 
addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served 
in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite 
'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.'[4]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137.
[2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, 
    pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle,
    see 'Documents 3 and 4.'
[3] Georg Tessin, 'Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und
    Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,' (Frankfurt am Main
    1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS.
[4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119.

Any comment?
 
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!chx400!sicsun!imhfhp16.epfl.ch!gavrila Mon Dec 23 08:15:48 1992 
From: gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros Gavrilakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Europe accuses Turkey
Date: 23 Dec 92 08:15:48 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne


<<In Turkish prisons, torture continues : The practice of
torture and other forms of grave maltreatment of persons detained
by the police, remains widespread in Turkey, affirmed Monday
the European Committee for the prevention of torture (CPT), an
organization set up by the European Council.
<<The torture and other forms of maltreatment are used by the
police "both against suspects of the common law and detainees
under the anti-terrorist lagislation", underlined the CPT in a
"Public declaration relative to Turkey".
<<This declaretion was made after three visits to Turkey by a CPT
delegation between Sep. 90 and end of Nov. 92.>>
(LNQ)

-------------

sg

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!think.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mucs!lucs!perena Mon Dec 23 01:25:23 1992 
From: perena@csc.liv.ac.uk (Miss. P.I. Gouma)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Re : Macedonian Nationality
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:25:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

In article <BznMM0.H3I@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
> [propaganda deleted]
> Merry Christmas
> 
> Andy

I would not like to keep on providing evidence that Macedonia is Greek. This 
has already been done satisfactorily, by so many netters who know History 
and respect themselves. I just want to ask the propagandist Andy what are 
his motives (financial, personal, family reasons , or else) for keeping on 
humiliating himself and his profession. I hope that he will reply for once 
with Honesty, as it is a sin to lie these days.

 
Yours,

Perena Gouma

MACEDONIA = HELLAS
HELLAS = MACEDONIA

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!andy!hilmi-er Mon Dec 23 11:22:07 1992 
From: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Date: 23 Dec 92 11:22:07 GMT
Reply-To: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Stockholm University




|>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos writes
 
|>I bet you have a lot of respect for someone that does not listen to   
|>arguments (argumentation? ouch!), does not even have the arxidia to 
|>post under his own name, has violated every rule on Usenet, has forged
|>articles for MONTHS, has made libel accusations on the net, uses a program
|>to respond to irrelevant articles, etc.
|> 
|>So, Mr/Ms Eren, please refute at least ONE of the argumentation (ouch!) 
|>I presented above. ONE will be enough. Extra credit for more than one.
|> 
|>Regards,
|> 
|>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
|>(Self appointed Mutlu historian)
|>--
|>              ___        _____________________________
|>             |  o\__    | Ne mutlu anti-Argic diyene? | Beef: Real Food 
|>}}            \  __/ ___| Ne mutlu anti-Mutlu diyene! |       for Real People
|>}}}    ____   / /    \          (Old Turkish Proverb) |
|>}}}}__/}}}}\_/ /      \_______________________________| Feathers: Real Clothes
|>}}/  }}}}}}    \                                               for real Chicken
|>  \   }}}}   }}/                                              
|>   \__ }}____}/        Spiros Triantafyllopoulos        
|>      \ /              c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com    
|>       |/_                                               
|>       '\               
|>


Look whos talking about argumentation? A person that
have make himself and the "soc.cult.greek" neurotic when
he hears the word "macedonian-not-greek". A person whos
only argumentation is pasting "chicken" pictures to the net (see above)...
Read *your* articles again  instead of making a fool of youself!






Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Sweden

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!andy!hilmi-er Mon Dec 23 11:38:22 1992 
From: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Date: 23 Dec 92 11:38:22 GMT
Reply-To: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


|> David Morning writes:

|>hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren) writes:
|>
|>
|>>In article <BznuJL.AqE@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:
|>
|>>|>David Morning writes:
|>>|>>hilmi-er@tess.enet.dec.com writes:
|>>|>>|>Yannis Schoinas writes:
|>>|>>|>>faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
|>>|>
|>>|>[Expressing 'admiration' of Argic]
|>>|>
|>>|>
|>>|>>|>Yes, it is Christmas and it's this time of the year that miracles do
|>>|>>|>happen. And even Serdar Argic, the most despised net persona, the lover 
|>>|>>|>of the kill files, the (in)famous broken AI program, has found an admirer.
|>>|>>|>Days of magic and grace,:-).
|>>|>>|>
|>>|>>|>Perhaps, I should get Serdar out of my kill file these loving days. Don't 
|>>|>>|>you think that I was too mean to have kept him there for so long?
|>>|>>|>
|>>|>>|>					Enjoy the holidays,
|>>|>>|>					     Yannis.
|>>|>>|>
|>>|>>|>ps: Faruk, you were kidding, right?
|>>|>> 
|>>|>>PS2: No, i think he was not kidding, and i agree with him.
|>>|>>     If you don't have anything sensible to say then shut up!
|>>|>
|>>|>What you think Mutlu ^H^H^H^H^HCosar^H^H^H^H^HArgic has something sensible
|>>|>to say??? Wow!! WOnders will never cease!!
|>>|>
|>>|>I think Yannis had something sensible to say, so why don't YOU shut up!
|>>|>
|>>    If you really think so, then where is *your* argumentation? 
|>
|>Yes I do think so, Mutlu is full of crap - simple as that.

	+Like i said- no argumentation at all...a childish answer:
	+"Yes I do think so, Mutlu is full of crap - simple as that." =
	+like a child saying to it's mother-"I just want that ice-cream!!",
	+Can't you answer why?

|>>    I forgot, as usual you have none, please don't waste your time
|>>    to write stupid things  like :"WOW, and ^H^H^H^H^..... 
|>
|>So why are you posting stupid little comments like the one you opened up with
|>then hmmm?
	
	+Is it more stupid than : "WOW, and ^H^H^H^H^....????


|>>    If you have the least sensible thing to say then i'm listening, else  
|>>    you should SHUT up too.
|>
|>Oh I do beg your pardon, I didn't realise we needed your permission to post to
|>Usenet. Silly me. Why don't you tell Mutlu to stop wasting his own and
|>other people's time by not posting stupid little comments?
|>..and why don't you do likewise, or do it via e-mail like everyone else?
	
	+I didn't say anything about needing permission from me...you said that...
	+i said to you to "shut up" if you don't have  any argumentation, else 
	+i said i'm listening (read above).......This net doesn't need childish
	+postings  from persons like you! Sorry? I'm using e-mail not Indian smoke...

|>Dave

+ Hilmi Eren
+ Stockholm University
+ Sweden

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!andy!hilmi-er Mon Dec 23 11:44:21 1992 
From: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Date: 23 Dec 92 11:44:21 GMT
Reply-To: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Stockholm University



|>
|>c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
|>
|>>Hilmi Eren writes:
|>
|>> 
|>>    If you really think so, then where is *your* argumentation? 
|>>    I forgot, as usual you have none, please don't waste your time
|>>    to write stupid things  like :"WOW, and ^H^H^H^H^..... 
|>>    If you have the least sensible thing to say then i'm listening, else  
|>>    you should SHUT up too.
|>> 
|>>I bet you have a lot of respect for someone that does not listen to   
|>>arguments (argumentation? ouch!), does not even have the arxidia to 
|>>post under his own name, has violated every rule on Usenet, has forged
|>>articles for MONTHS, has made libel accusations on the net, uses a program
|>>to respond to irrelevant articles, etc.
|>> 
|>  I bet she does have a lot of respect for Arxid.  After all, this is the
|>  so called pezeveng rationale. You "take it or leave it." 

	 + And swearing is Panos's argumentation...(pezeveng=pimp,ponce)...
	 + This net doesn't need that either....

|>>Regards,
|>> 
|>>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
|>>(Self appointed Mutlu historian)
|>
|> Merry Christmas,
|>
|> Panos
|>

	+Hilmi Eren

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!kth.se!andy!hilmi-er Mon Dec 23 11:56:58 1992 
From: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,soc.history,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Keywords: Faruk the fool
Date: 23 Dec 92 11:56:58 GMT
Reply-To: hilmi-er@andy.enet.dec.com (Hilmi Eren)
Organization: Stockholm University


|> David Davidian writes:

|>In article <1992Dec22.115035.21138@kth.se> hilmi-er@tess.enet.dec.com (Hilmi
|>Eren) response to Yannis Schoinas who wrote:
|>
|>[YS] faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:
|>
|>[F] I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
|>[F] about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
|>[F] suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
|>[F] a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
|>[F] documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
|>[F] unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
|>[F] However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
|>[F] is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
|>[F] and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.
|>
|>In response to the flaming "[F]", Yannis Schoinas noted:
|>
|>[YS] Yes, it is Christmas and it's this time of the year that miracles do
|>[YS] happen. And even Serdar Argic, the most despised net persona, the lover 
|>[YS] of the kill files, the (in)famous broken AI program, has found an admirer.
|>[YS] Days of magic and grace,:-).
|>[YS]
|>[YS] Perhaps, I should get Serdar out of my kill file these loving days. Don't 
|>[YS] you think that I was too mean to have kept him there for so long?
|>[YS]
|>[YS]					Enjoy the holidays,
|>[YS]					     Yannis.
|>[YS]
|>[YS] ps: Faruk, you were kidding, right?
|>
|>[HE] PS2: No, i think he was not kidding, and i agree with him.
|>[HE]      If you don't have anything sensible to say then shut up!
|>
|>Well, just what do you agree with? If you agree with Mr. [F], then you must
|>be a fool. If you agree with what he agrees with you must also agree with
|>Huseyin Necati, the Ankara's Young Turk Responsible Secretary who, during the
|>11th sitting (March 5, 1919) of the WWI Turkish War Trials, was characterized
|>by the former mutasarrif of Yozgat, Cemal by the following story:
|>
|> "It is a bizarre story. A short, slim, and blondish man, he came to me one
|>  day with a piece of paper which he wouldn't show me, but which purported to
|>  be an order from Atif, governor of Ankara. Necati then told me that he was
|>  a political agent in Azerbaijan when Armenian bands 'massacred Muslims there.
|>  We must retaliate now with the extermination of the local Armenians.' I
|>  replied as follows: 'This is not Azerbaijan and there are no Armenian bands
|>  massacring Muslims. You were a former gendarme. What political business did
|>  you have in the Caucasus? To me you are not an official, you have no
|>  responsibilities. You are not willing to show me that piece of paper in
|>  your hand.' He repeated his proposal of massacre, adding: 'This proposal
|>  reflects the will of the Ittihad's [Young Turk] central committee." My 
|>  response was: 'If the central committee indeed wills it, let it communicate
|>  directly with the government, the only instance from which I can take
|>  orders.' Disgruntled, Necati left for Corum and I was dismissed within
|>  about fifteen days." 
|>
|>OK, Eren, with which do you agree with?
|>
|>1) If you agree with Faruk the Bosnian, you are a fool, as is he,
|>
|>2) If you agree with what Faruk the Bosnian claims is correct, you are a 
|>   revisionist,
|>
|>3) If you agree with the accounts of the 1919 Turkish War Trails, you are in
|>   agreement with history but in disagreement with both (1) & (2).
|>
|>So tell us, are you behind door #1, door #2, door #3, or are you still in the
|>closet!
|>
|>
|>-- 
|>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org>  |  "The Regular Army of the Ottomans was 
|>SDPA Center for Regional Studies      |   entirely innocent of the Armenian 
|>P.O. Box 382761                       |   massacres." - Inspector General of 
|>Cambridge, MA 02238                   |   the Turkish forces in Armenia, WWI 
|>


Look, here is one person that can tell you if you are fool or not!
I think, as long as you decide if a person is a fool or not that you can also
easily open the closet and see which door i'm behind! And don't be suprised if
you'll see me behind you back...





Hilmi Eren
Stockholm University
Sweden 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:11759 soc.culture.europe:10699 soc.culture.bulgaria:1987 soc.culture.soviet:11404