From: jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death (and Bison's scissor...)
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:23:30 GMT

In article <BzDnvs.53F@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:
>
>>In article <BzD0E9.GoH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
[crap deleted]
>>>[your] arguments that Ken/Ryu have some sort of unfair advantage is ridiculous.
>
>>REREAD, and THINK this time:
>>>>>>   Talk about missing the damn point.  FOr the last time I am whining about
>>>>>>nothing.  I am simply stating the lack of balance in Ken/Ryus ability to
>>>>>>kill you off one hit.  Not "take half your energy" - but kill you. And Ryu's
>
>>Did I say something was cheap?  Did I say there was an unfair advantage?
>>Is english your second language?  What the hell.
>
>I just said that I don't personally feel anything is cheap. I did NOT
>accuse you of complaining about cheapness. You WERE complaining about
>game balance (which I believe generally means some sort of unfair advantage)
>Why don't you REREAD and THINK. 
>
>Here's a quote from you: 
>
>"Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities."
>Sounds like you're saying they're unbalanced, or in other words, having
>some sort of advantage. It also sounds like you are whining.

  This statement was in reference to Bison - and you obviously don't understand
English.  This is simply a fact - not whining.  I was telling the Bison
whiners here a fact - that Ken/Ryu have supirior abilities.  Period.
That is why they are a more commonly played character.  If Bison was SOO
much easier to play, and Bison had such devestating advantages - why doesn't
anyboduy decent play him? (or very few anyway).  Simple, because he sucks.

>>REREAD what I told you to REREAD above.  You will notice the phrase "For
>>the last time I am whiming about nothin."  I'm sorry you are incapable of
>>reading.
>
>You state over and over again that you are not whining, but in you
>posts you keep arguing that Ken/Ryu are unbalanced characters.

   Nope, you didn't re-read and think did you?  I said, in reference to
Bison's "cheapness", that Ken/Ryu has much more unbalanced abilities.  My
example was the touch of death, but there are much more.  Ken/Ryu are
better than Bison - it's just a fact.

>It sure sounds like you are complaining. I remember you posting how
>it was unbalanced that Ryu could HK over you and throw you.

   Again, you prove you can't read.  What I said was Ryu had that ability
as a counter-example to all the people bitching that Bison could
"torpedo and then throw".  They are the same thing - and both are just
as easy to counter.  

>>>I've played Bison a bit, and no you CAN'T throw after he torpedoes. There
>>>is a split second delay, even when you are in the corner. Try it. Play
>>>Bison, do a fierce torpedo into your opponent in the corner and while you
>>>are torpedoing, hold the joystick straight up. You will usually (not ALWAYS)
>>>be able to jump up, avoiding the throw.
>
>>  READ DAMMIT!  HOW HARD IS IT!?!  I said if Bison flames and THROWS YOU then
>>you suck...not that you should be able to throw him always.  BUT, if he
>
>First of all, this doesn't make sense. If he flames and THROWS YOU then
>you suck, but you shouldn't be able to counter him consistently? 

  Oh Christ man!  He can only throw you when he STRONG FLAMES - in which
case you can easily counter.  If he fierce flames neither are in throw
range at the end.  Havn't I already said this many times everybody?

>>does a strong flame (which is the only one he can throw you after) then
>>you can easily reverse throw.
>
>Well, Bison can throw you after a fierce torpedo too but that's not my point.

   He has to walk to do that (unless in the corner) - then it becomes 
obvious and you should be able to counter easily (or do a move).

>My point is that Bison isn't as easy to beat as you make it seem. 

  Yes he is.  I would like to hear what problems you have defeating Bison.

>>  And, he can jump in the corner, but so what?  He is a sitting duck floating
>>above you - pick your favorite move.
>
>If they were trying to throw you, they'll "whiff" with a fierce or strong 
>attack, after which you can hit them. I'm not saying that this is a foolproof
>method, but it beats being thrown every time you torpedo someone into the
>corner...

   With Bison's hang time from hell you have time to whiff a strong and still
get an attack off.  I would recommend throwing with roundhouse so you hit
him regardless.

[random babling deleted]
>["CHEESE" description deleted]
>
>>   WHAT!  Have actually ever died due to this?  This trap is probably about
>>1/50th as difficult to get out of as a Ryu fireball trap.  If you are
>>really getting desperate and "don't have time to jump or anything" then
>>PUNCH!  You get nabbed a few times but eventually you will nail him in the
>>head.  When you do, try not to get into this rare position again.
>
>I have seen Blanka masters just kept completely trapped in the middle
>of the screen for entire games. 

  Then I wouldn't call them masters.

>I'd say it's about equally as difficult to get out of as the fireball trap.
>Even if you do punch, you'll probably as you said get nabbed a few times,
>but these few times could significantly drain your life. Also, the position
>is NOT that rare. Bison can just THROW you into the center of the play area
>and start CHEESING you...

   Ok, you have proven my point - thankyou.  I hope the point doesn't get 
lost in all this drivel.  My point, for the last time, if Ken/Ryu are
*atleast* as powerful as Bison - but much more so IMNSHO.
   So Bison has a Ryu fireball trap.  So, he is a character whose biggest
strength is his ability to do a move equivalent to a Ryu fireball trap.
Other than that he sucks.  Ryu, on the other hand, has his trap and
much much more.

>>>Yes, you can dragon punch out of it, but what if you are not Ken/Ryu?
>>>This is especially effective against Blanka. The torpedo is fast enough
>>>that you do NOT have time to stop it when it is coming back at you.
>
>>   So you have died from this?  Since you "can't get out".  PUNCH!  Or, better
>>yet - roll at his ass as he is leaving your body.
>
>I've never seen the ball chasing Bison's flame, but if you do manage to
>"roll at his ass" let me know...

   I do it with Vega all the time.  But I don't play Blanka cause I think
he pretty much bites (pun intended).  I call Bison the anti-Blanka.

>>>That is the true "CHEESE". I myself didn't believe it until I actually
>>>saw it done, but yes it is UGLY!
>
>>   Doesn't work man.  
>
>Obviously, you've never seen it done properly...

    Obviously you don't know how to get out.  You are trying to tell me
that the "CHEESE", if performed properly, is IMPOSSIBLE to get out of?
The cheese is not a move that takes "anticipation" - it is the same thing
over and over.  So if you can get out once you can get out every time.
If you can't get out once - you can't get out ever (unless he screws up).
You are telling me this is an undefeatable move?

>>>>And this skill to damage ratio is crap:
>>>>  How hard is a 3 hitter stun combo with Ryu?  It took me about an hour
>>>>to get down.  It takes a lot longer than that for Bison to learn
>>>>spacing/timing and all that stuff for his moves.
>>>
>>>It took me a few days to "master Bison". I've been playing Ken on and off
>>>for a few months (never seriously) but I STILL can't do the four hit
>>>combo. I bet there are lots of Ken players who have been playing the
>>>game since the classic SF2 came out and still can't do four hit combos
>>>consistently.
>
>>  YOU ARN'T A MASTER BISON - get that into your head.  Being able to do
>>some brain-dead stuff back and forth does not make you a master.  Being
>>a master means you play well against all characters under different
>>circumstances (at the VERY least).  You beat master Kens/Ryus/Guiles
>>with your Bison?
>
>How would you know whether or not I am or am not a master Bison? Actually
>I'll admit I am not, but using Bison's inherent "powers", I CAN beat
>master Ken/Ryus. Also, I do not rely on the brain-dead cheese to win
>matches. That is an effective technique against certain characters,
>but he does have many other effective moves.

   Then, if you can beat them consistently, I wouldn't call them masters.
Master Kens do not get beaten by non-master Bisons - period.  That's
like a master Dhalsim getting beaten by a non-master Guile.  Shouldn't
happen - ever (everyone screws up occasionaly).

>In addition, Bison has a distinct advantage over
>many other "favored" characters such as Sagat and Blanka.

   I agree on Blanka.  But I think Sagat's huge leg will render Bison
useless if he knows how to jump in with roundhouse and mix it up with
other attacks.  And Bison is a sucker for the fireball trap.

>>>Your arguments are just totally ridiculous. In terms of becoming a "master"
>>>Ken/Ryu are probably the hardes to master. The problem with Bison is
>>>that there are too many scrubs making him look bad. The favorite character
>
>>   Please.  Ken/Ryus have been around since SFI (the moves anyway).
>>I would say Ken,Ryu, and Guile are the *only* characters that HAVE BEEN MASTERED
>>by anyone.  Maybe a few others.  Now, does that make those characters harder
>>to master or easier?
>
>Ken/Ryu/Guile I would say ARE the hardest to master. I would say Chun Li
>and Blanka are probably the easiest...

  We have different definitions of master.  I think Chun's supior speed
and throwing ability - added with her air throw ability - and then her
multitude of special attacks and ability to dance over fireballs...I would
say she should beat Ken.  Therefor a chun master should beat a Ken master
consistently.  This is *very* hard.

>Here we have masters of all characters except maybe Balrog and Sagat.
>Balrog hasn't been mastered because he is totally lame. Besides, even
>a master Balrog would be smeared by most other characters...
>
>Our Sagat players are getting pretty close to becoming masters...
>
>>>of scrubs is definitely Bison. You just have to remember, these are the
>>>same players that can't hit you with an aerial roundhouse if you were
>>>just standing there. They learn how to torpedo and come in with a feeling
>>>of power. 
>
>>    And they're a joke.
>
>Yes they are, but the Bison scrub would almost always beat the Ken scrub.
>
>Your posts tend to be a statement of "I'm not whining" and then rantings
>about how Ken/Ryu are unbalanced and how Bison is a pushover.
>Before you ask me to learn to read, perhaps you should learn to follow
>what you state...

   *huge yawn*.  See, in english, the words "I'm not whining" imply the
a meaning of the person making the statement is not whining.  I don't know
how much more clearly I can state that.    
   In addition, the thread that started this was my response to someone
who was whining about how Bison was soooo much unbalanced and impossible.
My response:  No way, compared to Ken?  If anything Ken is more unbalanced.
This is fact.  Common knowledge.  Anyone who is any good knows and understands
this.  My other point was there is no such "anti-Ken/Ryu" as there are for
most characters.

>>>>Ciao...
>>>
>>>
>>>>                                              - Jason
>>>
>>>-- 
>>> Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
>>> 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu			
>
>
>-- 
> Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
> 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu			


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