HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Distribution: alt.magick
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:14:38 GMT

tjr0868@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
: I can't help you with the history, (I not sure what I 
: am about to say will help much at all, but here goes),
: The regular pentagram, pointing up, was, and still is in some
: places, used as a "Hex" mark.  Just watch "Warlock".  Anyway,
: Satanists love to invert things that are normal in this world.
: Most Satanists believe that evil is the dominant force in the
: universe, so any sign they see as good is reversed.  Often the
: "Our Father" is said backwards.  Nema,  live morf su reviled etc.
: (That may just be rumor, I'm not sure).  Symbols are a natural 
: target.  Everyone is familiar with the upside down cross and
: crucifix, and the pentagram pointing down.  Other symbols are the
: Egyptian heiroglyph (sp?) for "life"; a + with a circle on the
: bottom.  (I think that's what it means).  However, by this definition
: Hitler was a Satanist.  He took a symbol for "peace" from I forgot
: who, and used a mirror image of it for the Nazi Swastica.
: 
: (Like I said, I doubt it helped).

Sigh. So, we have at least two clue-less posters on this thread.

You are right - it didn't help at all.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magic and Morals (was: Re: Harish)
Date: 3 Jan 93 03:17:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1i52ghINN7p8@uwm.edu>, hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes...
>From article <C05rvz.Lzn@acsu.buffalo.edu>, by oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown):
> 
> 
>>>>But, is there any way to separate the mechanics of magick from its
>>>>application?  
>> 
>> Huh?  The mechanics are innocent, neutral, entirely separate from 
>> application.
>> 
>>>>I can't imagine how you can.  --and that being said
>>>>we're left with thelema.  Absolute and purely relative.
>> 
>> Not a thelema expert here, by a long shot, but in one of the 
>> recent "Orgone Committee" posts there was a quote of Crowley 
>> in which he said its WRONG to commit rape or child molestation 
>> because those were acts of aggression against someone else's 
>> will.  So I'm not sure that Thelema is really as amoral as people 
>> say. ?????
> 
>That's not the same as saying its wrong, or right.  Besides I didn't
>say it was amoral.  I said it waas both ethically absolute and
>ethically relative.

The Crowley quote I referred to gives me the impression he 
thought it was (simply) WRONG to commit rape, molestation, and 
other acts of aggression.  (I don't know where the original poster 
found this quote, so maybe it wasn't really Crowley, maybe it was 
taken out of context, or maybe I misread it.  I'll try to find it 
again.)

Definitely not the fashion now to say something is simply wrong; 
sounds so judgmental, but now and then its refreshing to do so - 
though risky.:)

Amoral = "lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments 
apply."  Isn't that the same as "absolute and ethically relative?"
If not, please explain.

>And what in the dickens is this business about being 'free'???  Holy
>Cow.  In the context of all this, what could that possibly mean?

Human relationships are messy.  Committing acts of aggression 
immerse the aggressor in a messy relationship (with the victim).  
Avoiding the mess in the first place is what I meant by "free".  
If it really is someone's will to squash someone else into 
toothpaste as you described, then so be it.  However, IMO most 
acts of aggression are done by misguided people - not people 
following their will.

>And what does
>feeling good have to do with carrying out your will?

My will tends to avoid thing that make me feel bad and instead 
leads toward things that make me feel good, similar to your will 
leading you to be nice and cook Chinese dinners.  (Is this so unusual?) 

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: testin' this stupid editor
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:24:00 +0000



tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (TONYA PUONCEY) writes..

>Hail Eris 
>All hail Kalliste.

That's a make of car isn't it?

>Feelin' Jaded people...
>a used-to-be into it probationer of the OTO, 
>been wrong 5 times with the Tarot,
>familiars,
>cat understands most things ya tell it...
>but I'm bored!

Hmm.

>what happened?

You achieved worldview stability at the expense of challenge. You 
can't have it both ways. Either you know it all, and get bored, or 
you don't and get frightened :-)

>help!!!

Hel yourself. Practise by believing 32 impossible things before 
breakfast.

Happy new year.



Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Reply-To: scarrobi@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:54:49 GMT

In article 10205@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis) writes:
> 
> : unfortunately i have to stick to my guns. its like White/Black Magic. 
> : they exist. and u could use either to get an opposing result. 
> 
> Now, if there is such a thing as Black Magic, for example, then how could
> you use it to do good. It would be impossible.  Magic is magic, it has
> no inherent polarity. That is not to say that the intentions of the person,
> or persons, performing the act may not be "good" or "bad".
> 
> As I posted before - It is generally "them" who are practitioners of "black
> magic" - "We" practice only "white magic". This is just another example of a
> useless and unnecessary dichotomy.
> 
> : but to say evil is christian is bull. Evil has to do with actions, that are 
> : not in accordance with customs of a tribe or peoples.
> 
> Exactly. I have never said that evil is Christian. I stated that I believed
> the concept of absolute evil was Christian. I have been reminded by e-mail
> that the concept was borrowed by Christians from the Persians.
> 
> Unfortunately, humanity seems to have this overwhelming urge to divide
> the world into us/them, good/bad, nice/evil, lawful/unlawful, black/white,
> male/female, sweet/sour etc. We seem to be unable to admit that all such
> terms are relative - not absolute.
> 
> Bill


my point exactly. glad we agree on a few things. 
how to do good by using "bad" MAGIC.
use the BAD magic to nail a fellow practioner who is your nemesis but who has`
also been plagueing a town with his mischief. get it ?

---
Steve C. 

 ==> A wise man once told me - There ARE NO Wise Men !
                             - Just fools who think they are.
---------------------------------------------------------------		
 I understand you need someone to do work.
 I don't do work, but, I know this guy who does.
    -Vladimir Taltos
---------------------------------------------------------------

   	


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:22:04 GMT

scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis) writes:

: unfortunately i have to stick to my guns. its like White/Black Magic. 
: they exist. and u could use either to get an opposing result. 

Now, if there is such a thing as Black Magic, for example, then how could
you use it to do good. It would be impossible.  Magic is magic, it has
no inherent polarity. That is not to say that the intentions of the person,
or persons, performing the act may not be "good" or "bad".

As I posted before - It is generally "them" who are practitioners of "black
magic" - "We" practice only "white magic". This is just another example of a
useless and unnecessary dichotomy.

: but to say evil is christian is bull. Evil has to do with actions, that are 
: not in accordance with customs of a tribe or peoples.

Exactly. I have never said that evil is Christian. I stated that I believed
the concept of absolute evil was Christian. I have been reminded by e-mail
that the concept was borrowed by Christians from the Persians.

Unfortunately, humanity seems to have this overwhelming urge to divide
the world into us/them, good/bad, nice/evil, lawful/unlawful, black/white,
male/female, sweet/sour etc. We seem to be unable to admit that all such
terms are relative - not absolute.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:52:13 GMT

In article <BzFoB1.3yD@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>
>These people you know who are scarfing land, are they doing it 
>because they also believe in this impending disaster?  If so, 
>could you describe these people in more detail.  (I don't know 
>anyone that like that, so I'm curious.)
>
>- Peggy -


Actually, you quite possibly do know someone like that; a lot of the folks
I know who are making preparations of this sort aren't particularly public
about it.  (There are some interesting similarities between the survival
subculture and the magical subculture in this society, possibly having a 
lot to do with the fact that most people think both groups are stark staring 
crazy.)

Are they getting land because they expect our current civilization to go
the way of the dinosaurs, the dodo and the Khanate of the Golden Horde?
That's usually half or more of the reason, although a fondness for green
things, breathable air and a less styrene life often has a lot to do with 
it also.

I'm not sure what you want in terms of a "description in more detail," I
admit.  There are no simple categories in which the people I know can be
shoved (e.g., "right-wing loony," "technophobe," or what have you). Do
you want individual examples?  One group I know fairly well has in it, 
among others, an electrician active in the men's movement (a la Robert Bly
and so on), a roofer into libertarian politics, a civil engineer who
practices Native American quasi-shamanism, a railroad dispatcher and
former championship marksman who's a Gilbert and Sullivan fiend, and so
on.  No solar symbols on armbands, no foil-lined hats:  people you might
run into anywhere.  People in this group voted for practically every
presidential candidate you'd care to name except George Bush.

They do tend to be better educated than average, but that's one of the few
regularities I can think of.

Hmm.  These people who are practicing magic, Peggy, are they doing it
because they believe it works?  If so, could you describe these people
in more detail.  (I don't know anyone like that, so I'm curious. :) )

-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu
 

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: dickenjd@ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu (ORPHEUS)
Subject: Re: Adepti/Magister Formulae and Great Persons
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:35:00 GMT

In article <72632@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes...
>9212.30 e.v.
> 
> 
>Ladislas and I had the following exchange:

	[Thread deleted....]
> 
>Ladislas:
>Some of the more important (evident) hints are: the last supper, the wedding
>at Cana, the feeding of the masses (the fish and bread multiplication), the
>crucifiction, to name but a few.
> 
>Here's how I establish the correspondances:
> 
	[Once again, deleted...]
> 
>========================== end of our discussion.
> 
> 
>What I'd like to propose is this:
> 
>First, can someone define as clearly as possible the formulae
>for the Adepti and Magister?  If nobody bites on this I may have
>to revisit _Magick in Theory and Practice_ for some quotes.
>Elsewise perhaps we can drop this thread.
>
	Don't drop the thread.... many possiblities here. Do take into account
that the formulae are almagations, just as you proposed Christ was, save for
the fact that Christ is a device of the allegory involved in the formulae. 
Perhaps I misunderstood something, but it seems you propose to use the formulae
as the 'control' in this little study, which seems to me to be the wrong way to
go about it. The Magickal formulae we are accustomed to are synthesized from 
these archetypes, not the other way around. They were the source material for
the Rosicrucian, which in turn, etc. etc.
	However, if you just want to compare and contrast, that's great. I'll
play too! :) Like I said, many possibilities, but the language of the quoted
portion was ringing a bit odd in my ears.


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Affirmations to Hadit from the Orgone Committee
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:55:14 GMT


Affirmations To Hadit

This is best used in a Circle immediatly before or after reading
the Second Chapter of Liber AL. Feel free to combine these
affirmations/oaths with any other Magickal or Alchemical acts that
will charge them with more power. We leave that to your own
imagination! Try using one affirmation each at the point of orgasm
for 11 seperate acts of sex magick, for example.)
Your Will allowing, these affirmations will allow the Second
Chapter to live for you in ways that it never has before!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I drink to the eight and nintey rules of art so that I may exceed!,
exceed!

I am thy Hermit at all the joy.

I dare to live long and desire death much for I am thy King, my
body dissolving in ecstacy.

Khabs is the name of my house, and 418.

I dare beauty and strength, leaping laughter, delicous langour,
force and fire.

A feast every day in my heart in the joy of your rapture.

I dare to not cry why, invoking because.

I dare to not veil my vices in virtuous words.

To worship you, I dare to take wine and strange drugs, and they
shall harm me not at all.

I dare to obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet, I will
find new symbols to attribute them unto.

I dare to work the formula 0=2.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Interested in communicating with the Orgone Committee and/or the
Neo-Thelemoid Clique?

Write to: Neo-Thelemoid Clique C/O Orgone Committee P.O. Box 614
Vanbrunt Station, Brooklyn NY, 11215. (Enclose 9 X 12 SASE with
$1.00 postage, or just $1.25 postage for a reply.)
Or call: BaphoNet (718) 499-0513 and (718) 499-9277. Leave messages
for William Hunter or Faunus or Giovani Saintini.
Or call William Hunter direct: (718) 788-9223.

SEX IS PEACE
TRUE WILL NOT SLAVERY
CONCIOUSNESS IS STRENGTH

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.Prime.Com (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Hello, Harish, and Bran
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 06:21:48 GMT

In article <72603@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
|> 3) AC's 'DWTW' ought be challenged very strenuously.  Those who accept
|>    it without such challenge are the worst form of mongrel and will
|>    surely end up as slaves to the Buddha-armies.

You know as well as I do that, like similar things, anything
which can be said about DWTW (More accurately, Thelema is the idea 
would be challanged, not the simple phrasing.) in response to a 
challange is misleading. (That this is a true statement 
in general is not at issue.) The response to the challange is, rightly,
look within yourself...if this rings true, then use it,
if not, then don't (which is what I was implying, albeit somewhat
inadequately). I would have hoped that this would be applied to 
all sweeping statements about magick, such as the one which 
started the whole she-bang. 

|> Invoke me under my stars.  Love is the law, love under will.
|> I am I!
|> Frater (I) Nigris (666) 

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonP@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: Hello
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:20:59 GMT


>>I would love to learn more about 'Magick', partly for the power trip 
>                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and, well, I think that it calls to me. I say think because it just 
>>might be an extension of a desire for power ect.
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Two good reasons *not* to respond to this person.

What, because they're actually being honest for a change?  I was tempted
to respond to him on this basis alone, but he demonstrated a subtly
different orientation from myself.

>Harish, magic is not about power-tripping.  If you want real power over
>people, go into politics.

And you really don't see them as the same thing?


-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 15:39:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <9212231655.AA08261@chaos.intercon.com>

If someone will write up a comprehensive FAQ entry regarding:

Q: What is the significance of a Pentagram?


and email it to me, then I'll be happy to maintain it and
repost it when this subject comes up AGAIN.


Thanks.

Thyagi
From: windsphire@wizard.colorado.edu
Subject: alt.amusing
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 28 Dec 92 03:58:43 MST

This sure is a flatulent group. Sparks of creativity & personal
supposition ignite festering charges of noxiocombustible gas. Surely you
can't be that depressed? Or has the 3-fold net already quickened, forcing
you to search for magickal thought in alt.non.sequitur? 

	"The nomos of Go against the State of chess, nomos against
	polis. The difference is that chess codes and decodes space,
	whereas Go proceeds altogether differently, territorializing
	or deterritorializing it...another justice, another movement,
	another space-time"	_A_Thousand_Plateaus_

	-Windsphire
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Scott Locklin )
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:44:15 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec23.162455.7996@wl.com> anzlovar@wl.com (Bob Anzlovar) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.035912.6167@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=) writes:
>
>>I am well aware of the fast that most modern earth/pagan cults are based on
>>fallacies, lies & historical innacuracies, in fact I posted an article to this
>>effect on alt.satanism not more that 3 weeks ago.
>>The differnce is, I am a member of a "pagan sect" that _realizes_ its history,
>>or lack therof. I assume many (I wish most) pagans are aware that their 
>>religions were started in the 1960's as a part of a counterculture fad. 
>
>The pagan movement got rolling more during that time, but its origins go
>a little further back than that (but I'm not one of those who say it
>goes back for generations). Much of the pagan movement goes back to
>Gerald Gardner (I think that's his first name) & there are those who
>contend he stole much of his material from Crowley.

Yes, yes and some pagans have nothing to do with either Crowley or Gardener.
The Sabbeans of Chicago (from spain & before?) come to mind as a notable
exception. (Interestingly enough, this "authentic" pagan sect is one of the few
which practices animal sacrifice. Put _that_ in your white-light haloes & smoke
it!)

>>Shit,
>>the Church of All Worlds, biggest & most influential pagan sect (according to
>>the encyclopedia of american religions) in this country, is based on a science
>>fiction story! *Thou Art God*
>
>In the last two issues of _Green Egg_, there're a couple articles which
>put forth the thesis that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ is really about
>Thelema, but doing so without pushing the hot-buttons that most folks
>have about Crowley. (Altho Crowley *is* mentioned once in the book.)

I have heard that Heinlein was an OTO member; sorry no refs... 
His philosophies are certainly remarkably similar to Crowley's, extreme (for 
the era) libertinism & libertarianism...

Since this thread is turning completely from the purpose it was designed, 
please direct any further comments on the history of the relative positions
of the pentagram to alt.satanism.

-Scott
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:43:41 GMT

locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=) writes:
: In article <1992Dec23.010157.23506@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: >: 
: >: Another note on this, Kurt Saxon, author of innumerable books on improvised
: >: weaponry & all around survivalist guru is a preist in the Church of Satan.
: >: Imagine, I had his book, the "Poor Man's Armorer" for all these years & it was
: >: written by a _Satanist_. Perhaps it had some subliminal mantra in it that
: >: sent me in this direction ;).
: >
: >And, where did you get this factiod? I have not seen any such claim anywhere
: >in his writing.
: 
: It is in the introduction to "The Satanic Witch" where Zeena LaVey describes
: her satanic baptism. (Kurt Saxon made her a nice pentagram for the occasion) 

Thanks for the update. I am surprised that he does not mention the fact in
his other writing.

: maybee he isn't a guru, but the Poor Man's Armorer is certainly a handy
: reference for improvised munitions & whatnot. (In other words, he was my
: guru on the subject)

It may be handy, but it is not safe to use.

Bill
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:01:57 GMT

locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu () writes:
: 
: Another note on this, Kurt Saxon, author of innumerable books on improvised
: weaponry & all around survivalist guru is a preist in the Church of Satan.
: Imagine, I had his book, the "Poor Man's Armorer" for all these years & it was
: written by a _Satanist_. Perhaps it had some subliminal mantra in it that
: sent me in this direction ;).

And, where did you get this factiod? I have not seen any such claim anywhere
in his writing.

I would not really describe him as a survivalist guru either. Most of what
he has put together is just a rehash of other peoples work.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: My postings of Orgone Committee Stuff
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 08:00:59 GMT

 Well, I have just posted most of what I have in files on the Orgone
Committee. They are a fairly dynamic group that is cross-traditional and
which is based out of New York City. I've talked quite a bit with some of
their members (the Thorn Rune ritual I posted was by Faunus, who is a
member) and they seem to have a lot of good ideas. I figured that the
people here might enjoy reading some of their stuff and might even find it
useful. I am putting all of these files and a couple of others on the
slopoke FTP site so people can get them.

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson