From: hamrick@milton.u.washington.edu (Mike Hamrick)
Subject: Re: Renegade Outpost DIKUMud
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 03:58:29 GMT


Hi there:

Ok.  It looks like I got flamed.  That's OK, I guess there is a first time
for everything.  I will attempt to explain my position a little better and
maybe we can all make a little sense out of this mess.

This thing started with Jackie F. Russell who writes:

>Please i wont even read this damn newsgroup anymore, even tho i run a diku. 
>I should have never posted what i thought was a helpful post. All it has 
>done is fucked shit up. Too bad noone else thinks that stealing code is bad.
>Glad you dont have my fucking code.

After reading his messages, it appears to me that he is extremely pissed
about the possibility that someone might have stolen some sloth code.  I
think he also feels that not enough people share his anger and opinions
regarding this alledged theft.

Next, strake@dartmouth.edu writes in response to this article:

>Well I don't know about the rest of folks, but in every CS course I've ever
>been in, the profs say you can use any code you like to help you with your
>program just credit it to the proper people. Otherwise it would just take
>far too long to code anything of value, and nearly impossible to improve on
>something.

>Aside from that, I haven't seen any posts which backed stealing code.
>The only one that came close was mine from earlier, and that was actually
>a post that didn't back people who publicly accused others of stealing code
>without giving us (the public) any reliable basis for the claim.

It seems to me that Strake was trying to clarify things.  I think he attempted
to tell Jackie that nobody was actually saying that stealing code was OK, but
merely enthusing on the merits of sharing code, like they do at Dartmouth.

Now we're getting close to what I responded to:

Jeffrey Stine writes:

>Does Dartmouth have a large CS program? Please say no, I'd hate to think of
>what these people could do to our legal system.
>Those things "of value" are exactly what people try to protect and if
>you wish to share yours with others that is fine but please don't expect
>the rest of us to believe this.

After reading this message, I was convinced that Stine was attacking the CS
department at Dartmouth for sharing code.  This of course pissed me off, 
because I believe strongly in code sharing.  If Stine actually thought that
the Dartmouth CS department encouraged their students to STEAL code, then
I apologize for jumping down his throat.

I then wrote my message defending code sharing (which I felt had been attacked
by Stine) in which I inferred that Stine was a pinhead.

Now that I have explained the circumstances surrounding the message I wrote, I
will respond a few of the people who flamed me:

I will first respond to Jeffrey Stine, who was rightfully angry at being 
called a pinhead.


> { a side note: My "believe this" was in reference to someone saying that
>   it was ok to take/steal whatever code is useful to as long as you credit
>   them. }

Ah!  A misunderstanding!  I don't think Strake's message inferred that code
STEALING was OK under any circumstances, credited or not.

>Important note for all the `pinheads' subscribing to _this_ belief:
>I did not say that sharing code was bad. It is essential sometimes in
>order to improve the code base or as a collaboration. Trading diku functions
>was a something of a `noble' pasttime when it was new, I traded a few
>myself. The key idea here is cooperation. And receiving permission.

I think we both agree here.

>You young sir can continue to read postings wrong and jump in with both
>feet in your pinhead mouth, but I _will_ cling to the idea that theft of
>software is wrong and all the courts in the world would probably back me
>up.

I think you are guility of this more than I.  I think you misread Strake's
message regarding Dartmouth.  In my eyes, at no point in his message did
he condone code stealing.  That would be silly now wouldn't it?

My next response is to Alan Kranz who writes:

>Uh Mike - he didn't say sharing software was bad. He said he had the
>right to not disclose software he has written. Are you saying that 
>everyone who writes non-profit software should be require to make the
>sources (or binaries) avaialble to whoever wants them? I hope this isn't
>what you are saying.
>
>atk

I am not saying anything of the kind.  I was responding to Mr Stine's attack
of Dartmouth college for SHARING code.  It seemed painfully obvious to me that
Strake's message regarding Dartmouth did not condoe code STEALING.  I didn't 
think for a second that Stine thought that Darmouth condoned code stealing.

mikeh




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