HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aatresa@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (Teresa Kline)
Subject: Re: Posting and pain
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Yeah, *right* !
Date: 17 Apr 1992 08:43 EST  

In article <1992Apr16.182704.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, jfriedman@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes...
>                              -jac 

You helped me, maybe I can return the favor.  I hope so.

One thing I did for my friends that are noticing my self-absorption is 
giving them a copy of the chapter for partners in Courage to Heal.  I'm 
still not up to telling anyone the shameful details of my life, but that at 
least gives them an idea of why I'm "absent" so much, and also gives them 
some clues on what I'm having to deal with.
The chapter talks about how long it will take to heal, how some days are 
good and some bad, what your allies can do to help.
Maybe it would be a good idea for you.
And, just because you weren't actually raped (your words), doesn't mean the 
damage wasn't done.  The worst part for me is that I was not in control.  
My rights to my body, mind, and soul were trampled on.  And taken away.
Oh, for those of you who caught the throwaway line (not telling), I know 
that has to change.  As long as I keep it secret, I'll still feel the shame.

Gentleness to all!
-- Teresa

		Life -- just for the FUN of it!!!!
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: RE: Definition of paedophilia
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:25:35 GMT
Organization: NIST

I know you said not to respond here, but I want to clarify one thing:

In a previous article, csz55@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Christopher Wrigley) wrote:

>NB   These individuals at the opposite end of the extreme are
>those who most of you have been victimised by and know most about.

I'm not quite sure that most of us were abused by paedophiles.  Most of us
were abused by what I would call rapists, in that they didn't necessarily
do it out of sexual attraction, but for power and violence.  One
can be a sexual abuser but not be a paedophile.

                                                                        __
    Sim David Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3338.span@sdsc.edu \/
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: idfriedm@sunee.waterloo.edu (id friedman)
Subject: Re: my sponsor fired me!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:13:53 GMT

>They sound totally incredibly un-together.

you may be working a fine recovery programme in your mind
But you seem like there is alot of "SELF WILL" still going 
on 
Why do you not have a sponsor ?
Do you really believe you can do it on your own ?

It may seem mean , but I feel this is an important topic 

Stephen M.

>
>Karen
>ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu
>
>
>ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu
>
>Where the seller of stars, for a penny or two, will sell your
>Heart's desire to you."
From: starshine@igc.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: 12 Apr 92 19:52 PDT
Subject: Re: Sponsor followup
Nf-ID: #R:scorn.sco.com:23683:cdp:1309900041:000:2140
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!starshine    Apr 12 19:52:00 1992


     I am a female.  My first AA sponsor was sober 7 years when she
became my sponsor.   She was gay and she fell in love with me (and
I presume wanted to be lovers) and didn't have the good sense to
see the conflict of interest; so I dumped her as a sponsor, and
found I really didn't enjoy her as a friend.  I had a couple of
temporary sponsors, but couldn't find anyone I trusted, felt
comfortable with, and understood by.  After a couple of years, I
heard a guy speak at a meeting.  I liked his program and I liked
his story, and, during the coffee break, I asked him to be my
sponsor.  They say women should stick with women and all that, but
my experience wasn't very good with women, and this guy had great
sobriety.  He must have been startled by a total stranger asking
him to sponsor her, but he offered his friendship and gave me his
phone number, and I've called him ever since, when need be.  He's
always delivered a good message - told me to talk when I needed
that; told me (in the sense of suggesting to me) to go to meetings,
when I needed that; always understand and is always kind.  I've
done a 4th step with him, too.

     I've considered him my sponsor now for about 18 years.  He
moved out of my region 5 years ago; and I moved out 3 years ago; we
now live about 100 miles apart, and I haven't seen him face to face
for a long time, but we are going to have dinner together next
month when I drive up to see him.  I spoke to him today on the
phone and shared loads of good news with him and our conversation
was upbeat.  But I've cried to him plenty and shared my terror when
I've been terrified, and shared by heartbreak when I've been
heartbroken.  We reminisced about how I first asked him to be my
sponsor - and how it's stuck - and he said "Neat."

     I think there are different strokes for different folks in AA
and the other fellowships.  I have had, or have, sponsors in AA,
OA, AlAnon, D.A., and A.R.T.S.  Anyone who tells me I don't need
another program is the wrong sponsor for *ME*.  *I* need 'em all.

     And folks - it *GETS BETTER* even if you don't believe it. 
Just wait long enough!

Starshine

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: david@perle.UUCP (David L.)
Subject: One Day At A Time In Al-Anon
Organization: Perle Systems Ltd.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 12:56:54 GMT

From "ONE DAY AT A TIME IN AL-ANON", copyright 1973, by 
Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc.  Reprinted by 
permission of Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc.

----------------------------------------------------------

APRIL 11

   Newcomers to Al-Anon often ask what makes
the alcoholic drink. They seem more eager to
know WHY than to learn why THEY allow another's
compulsive drinking to affect them so destruc-
tively.
   The causes of the drinker's desperate need for
escape through alcohol aren't easily explained
even by the trained psychiatrist.
   We must accept the fact that the alcoholic
suffers from a sickness. The family may be able to
help him to want sobriety, by changing its way of
thinking and acting. In Al-Anon we learn how to
conquer our OWN self-defeating attitudes.

TODAY'S REMINDER

   What a blessed relief it is to be able to face our
problems with confidence, hope and serenity. If we
can recognize and admit our own shortcomings with
increasing honesty, it opens the door to a new world for
us, and often makes a seemingly miraculous change in
the alcoholic as well.

       "Let me free myself from the illusion that
	I can do anything directly to conquer
	the disease from which the alcoholic suffers.
	I need not suffer from another's illness, if
	only I am willing to accept help for myself.
	This indirectly helps the alcoholic."
From: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: One Year
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:14:39 GMT
Reply-To: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: mattys

I am happy to say that yesterday I celebrated one year of sobriety. I
had dinner with my sponsor and we went to a meeting where I was then 
elected Secretary. What a great way to celebrate! Anyways I am really
happy with the progress that I am making in my life, and I wanted to
share that with all of you!

Debra Giberson
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Sponsor followup
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 22:49:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na

In article <23683@scorn.sco.COM> joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:
>
>Thank you to all who gave me their experience, strength and
>hope.  
>
>I have asked another woman to become my A.A. sponsor. I also
>read the pamphlet on sponsorship.  It was really helpful. 
>I recognize that I tend to take other people as my Higher Power,
>so that a sponsor's advice ("Don't attend other programs")
>becomes to me like a voice from on high!  
>
>My problem is that the other woman has a meeting at her house,
>and I really like her meeting...but fear her sometimes sharp
>tongue. I hate subjecting myself to a negative commentary if
>I pitch at her meeting.  So next issue: is it "dishonest" to just
>stop calling her, and hope she won't press me on the subject
>of why I'm not using her as a sponsor. (Gawd, that sounds awful...
>"using" her...well, I hope y'all know what I mean:  communicating
>with her on a sponsor/sponsee level...)
>
>Joanne


Good for you!  I think finding another sponsor was a really good
thing to do for yourself.  

"Dishonest"?  I don't know, that word makes me a little uncomfortable
in this context.  I'd rather encourage you to feel good about yourself
for doing as well as you are.  If you feel strong enough, though, I
think you'd feel empowered if you called this woman and told her you
didn't think it would work out for her to be your sponsor, and that
you've found another sponsor (if it were me, I'd probably add a bunch
of stuff about not taking it personally, how much I appreciate all
her efforts, sometimes these things just don't work out, etc., so she
wouldn't feel any worse than necessary, but then I tend to be a people-
pleaser).  

Good luck in your recovery!
-- 
Enigma (enigma@netcom.com)
From: joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Two programs/two sponsors
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 92 18:50:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.


I would appreciate some feedback on the following situation.
I am in two 12-step programs, OA and AA.  I just met with my
new AA sponsor.  She wants me to go to four meetings a week,
which is fine. But, when she asked me what meetings I go to now,
I listed my OA meetings and AA meetings. "YOU don't need OA!" she
said. "I want you to concentrate on AA."  Now, I've been in AA
for four years.  I've been in OA, focusing on "grey sheet" meetings
(also known as HOW) and weighing and measuring food according to
that particular subset of OA, for a month.  My OA sponsor encourages
me to do both AA and OA. 

I tried to explain to my AA sponsor that I really am a compulsive
eater, even if I look "normal" (5 feet, 3 inches tall, 120 pounds). 
She just reiterated that I should do only AA meetings. HOW do I
explain to her?  Or should I?  I do value her and don't want to lose
her as a sponsor. 


Thanks for any input!  


Joanne
From: cme@ellisun.sw.stratus.com (Carl Ellison)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: OA Abstinence, is measuring your food compulsive?
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:34:39 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering


I have only a *little* compulsion, eating  :-).

(occasional compulsive trips to the snack machine to buy low-calorie
pretzels)

On top of that, I had a major problem with food amounts.  I was getting
fat.  So, I joined Weight Watchers.  I took off 40 pounds (205 down to 165)
and am now hovering at 173 (6'2").  WW taught me to measure food.  It
worked.  I now measure food.  Even the stuff I go for compulsively, I
measure.  :-)   The important part is that the normal meals needed to be
measured.  Vending machines weren't what put my fat on.  It was regular
meals -- only the right number of them at nearly the right times (according
to American standards) but the amounts were too big.

So -- to me these two issues are orthogonal.
From: drh@spock.EBay.Sun.COM (David R. Hawley)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: One Year
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:15:09 GMT
Reply-To: drh@spock.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: spock.ebay.sun.com

In article rptdfINNovn@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM, debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson) writes:
>I am happy to say that yesterday I celebrated one year of sobriety. I
>had dinner with my sponsor and we went to a meeting where I was then 
>elected Secretary. What a great way to celebrate! Anyways I am really
>happy with the progress that I am making in my life, and I wanted to
>share that with all of you!
>
>Debra Giberson
>
>

Congrats!!!

---
David R. Hawley  Conformity is Suicide -R.W. Emerson- 
Internet: drh@spock.Ebay.Sun.COM  || Sun Education 
<408> 276-3260 ||  UUCP: ..!sun!spock!drh ***********
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Sorry about that... ;<
Keywords: sponsor followup
Organization: OFSA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 10:32:32 -0500

>In <1992Apr16.193259.11875@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:

>>>Perhaps crystal does feel as if 12 step programs are "religions". You
>>>(and I) don't consider them to be religions but that does not make her
>>>opinion invalid.

>>religion (ri-lij-en) 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
>>recognized as the creator and governor of the universe. b. A particular
>>integrated system of this expression: *the Hindu religion*. 2. The spiritual
>>or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the existence of a superhuman
>>power or powers. 3. An objective pursued with zeal or concientious devotion:
>>*a collector might make a religion out of his hobby*.

>>Of these, number 3 might apply to the Twelve Steps - but the same would 
>>apply to golf, or watching Andy Griffth reruns - this is the slang part.

Hmmmm, I think # 2 would fit in nicely too. Especially using the word
"spiritual" since it is often pointed out that AA is not religion but
spirtuality. *grin*  My my, amazing how words can be interpreted, eh?

So, if we go *strictly* by Jim's definition....12 step groups ARE
religions...at least that is ONE interpretation. *smile*


>>If she wishes to speak her own language, that is her buisness. I assume that

I think she was stating an opinion of hers...we are all allowed to do
that, yes?


>>2. The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the 
>>existence of a superhuman power or powers.
>
>>Hmm - now _this_ one looks like it might fit - wait a minute. The phrase
>>was 'twelve step religions'. The 12 steps quite often (but not always!)
>>produce this result in those who follow them, but the steps are the program
>>(all_ of the program - 'Here are the steps we took which are suggested 
>>as a program of recovery') and the steps are not an 'attitude', they are,
>>well, a program!B^)

Hmmm, I could argue the other way here but that would be silly since
it is all just words...

Let me express my own opinion of what is religion and what is
spirituality.

Spirituality is what is within us...religion is the exterior that
mankind inevitably uses to explain the unexplainable.

Steve
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: my sponsor fired me!
Organization: OFSA
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 12:25:05 -0500

moy@acf5.NYU.EDU (Gloria J. Moy) relates:

>	My sponsor fired me last evening. I am coming up on seven years
>clean and sober, and she fired me because "she can't sponsor someone who doesn'tgot to meetings". I do go to meetings, but not all the time, or not according
>to the way she goes to meetings. I currently work six days a week, go to

	First mistake...not cowtowing to every whim of your sponsor.
:) Sponsoring is great but it can be a power trip also. There is a
fine line between giving advice or lending a ear or being an objective
observer and falling into a control situation.

	One day at a time, Gloria...*hug*

Steve
From: david@perle.UUCP (David L.)
Subject: One Day At A Time In Al-Anon
Organization: Perle Systems Ltd.
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:18:45 GMT

From "ONE DAY AT A TIME IN AL-ANON", copyright 1973, by 
Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc.  Reprinted by 
permission of Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc.

----------------------------------------------------------

APRIL 8

   Would I stand on the seashore and, like King
Canute of the ancient legend, try to command the
tides? It is just as fruitless to try to control the
alcoholic. Yet this is what I would be doing in 
attempting to force sobriety by my will power.
   I must honestly admit that I am not even able
to control MY OWN thoughts, words and actions.
There is much room for improvement. My first
obligation is to make a truly satisfying life for
myself. To do this, I must work on my own
shortcomings, get on better terms with myself
and those around me.

TODAY'S REMINDER

   I will devote myself to overcoming my flaws of
character and controlling my impulsive words and
actions. This will leave me no time to concern myself
with remodeling the alcoholic.

   Once I withdraw my interference and protection, 
the alcoholic may realize that sobriety must be a
personal, individual problem which no one else can
solve for him.

       "I pray for the wisdom to know that no	
	other person's salvation depends upon
	me, but on himself and God."
From: starshine@igc.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: One Year
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:01:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: igc.1309900039
Nf-ID: #R:rptdfINNovn@grapevine.ebay.sun.c:-246617778:cdp:1309900039:000:126
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!starshine    Apr  6 19:01:00 1992


Congratulations Debra on your anniversary and election and your
happiness with your progress.  Thanks for sharing.

Starshine
From: jimb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Jim Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Sorry about that (I'll figure out how to post yet! *grin*)
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:38:29 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <1992Apr14.132806.1912@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>
>Please don't dig your hole too deep. Most of us were atheist or agnostic
>before we got to our respective 12-step programs. But we reached a point
>where we hurt bad enough to be willing to believe that there was a Power
>greater than ourselves.
>
>You say that you did it in one year. And as long as it lasts, that's fine.
>But if you ever find something missing, you might like to try another
>way - with other people.
>

Two comments.  First, not wanting to be part of some religious movement
or being agnostic does not necessarily imply belief that oneself is the
center of the universe and a need to control everything.  From what I
have seen of the 12 steps (from reading, talking to friends and from
following this group over the past several years), the reason for the
admitting there is a greater power is to solve personal tendencies to
feel a need to control everything.  Giving up this need is what the step
is about.  Many of us have struggled with this problem in different ways
and it is indeed a relief to stop feeling responsible for the universe.
That does not mean I am handing responsibility to some diety, just saying
I am not responsible for anything but my own life.

Second, she has said she did it with other people.  Some were those who
wrote books, some were friends.  She did not see a need for meetings all
the time.

There are those who swear by *A and meetings.  There are others who have
recovered/changed/... with the help of therapy of one kind or another.
There are also people who have done it with friends.  Finally, I have met
people who have quit drinking just by self decision and not replaced it
with some other problem -- people who needed booze to make it through
each day, people who had lost jobs because of being drunk, who were
accustomed to the stench of their own filth because of drinking.  Not
all paths are for everyone, but if anyone has made it out of the hell
then they have my respect and support -- no matter what path they did find.

Jim
From: cme@ellisun.sw.stratus.com (Carl Ellison)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: my sponsor fired me!
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:05:23 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <1992Apr13.123457.1486@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>ronan@codon3 (Karen Ronan;161 GPBB;x2-0884) writes:
>>Well, I hope I'm working a fine recovery program in my mind.
>>That's the only mind I have access to.
>
>I love it. It always comes down to 
>
>1. I know what is best for me
>	vs.
>2. I don't know what is best for me.
>
>One of these is psychological. The other one is spiritual.

The spiritual one (#2 I believe) is properly spiritual when said by the
person him/her-self.  When someone else says "you don't know what is best
for you", it is no longer spiritual -- well, maybe demonic -- but rather an
exercise of control.  This is the problem with some sponsors.  The job
definition attracts people with a need to control others -- therefore, I
would expect to find a higher than usual percentage of people with such
disorders among sponsors than I do among the raw population.

>Imagine! The nerve of your sponsor, telling you to go to meetings 8-)
>Well, I have done the same thing. 'If you want what we have and are 
>willing to go to any lengths to get it, then you are ready to take
>certain steps.'

If you're talking to a bewildered, besotted drunk, you might need to take
control for a moment -- tough love, and all that.  If you're talking to
someone who has been in the program for years and has been successful,
there's no excuse for "telling" anything -- even (or perhaps especially)
anything truly beneficial to the other person.  That's a parent:child
interaction, not an interaction between adults.

>But to say 'find your own way' and to say
>'in Alcoholics Anonymous' is to produce an oxymoron (that means a moron
>without enough oxygen 8-). Alcoholics Anonymous has a program of recovery.
>In the 12&12, in the Third Step, it says that, at least as far as 
>drinking is concerned, we turn our will and our lives over to AA.

According to my dictionary, "AA" does not equal "sponsor".  Neither does
"Higher Power" equal "sponsor".

It is extremely tempting (vid. Jimmy Swagart and company) to someone who is
a control freak to take on the position of "Speaker for God".  You can't in
good conscience defy God, therefore you can't defy His speaker, right?

Have a nice day.

--Carl
From: ronan@codon3 (Karen Ronan;161 GPBB;x2-0884)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: my sponsor fired me!
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:11:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.s7dkaINNlcf
Organization: University of California
NNTP-Posting-Host: codon3.berkeley.edu

In article <27310019@acf5.NYU.EDU> moy@acf5.NYU.EDU (Gloria J. Moy) writes:
> 
>
>	My sponsor fired me last evening. I am coming up on seven years
>clean and sober, and she fired me because "she can't sponsor someone who doesn'tgot to meetings". I do go to meetings, but not all the time, or not according
>to the way she goes to meetings. I currently work six days a week, go to

Someone mentioned an AA pamphlet describing what a sponsor/sponsee
relationship was supposed to be like. Can that be posted?
I'm seriously wondering where these "sponsors" are coming from.
They sound totally incredibly un-together.

Karen
ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu


ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu

Where the seller of stars, for a penny or two, will sell your
Heart's desire to you."