From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Faith
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Sep26.194221.23321@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 19:14:01 GMT

>>>"MATH" is not a proposition.  "MATH" does not have a truth-value.

>In article <Bv5G5s.LHB@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> 
pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>It doesn't? Are you saying that MATH is false? (not valid)

In article <1992Sep26.194221.23321@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> 
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Don't think of it as math, think of it as mYth, to connect with another
>discussion. :-)

Yes, that was one of my many possible intents. Math is of course
symbolic, it symbolizes something that is transcendent of writing. What
is the meaning of 1 + 1 = 2 ? Is it just true or false, or is it
metaphoric? How about a = 3.624 ? Does that mean a is 3.624?

>>1 + 1 = 2
>>Or, do you have blind faith that this is correct? In other words, you KNOW it
>>to be TRUE beyond ANY doubt. You see, faith means some doubt, blind faith
>>means absolutely NO doubt.

>1 and 2, as well as addition, are abstractions.  1+1=2 is true because it was
>defined to be true.  We could come up with a system where 1+1 is not 2, just
>by defining these things to be something else, so no I have no faith that
>1+1=2.

First off, 1+1=2 was not defined true. And if you have no faith that
1+1=2, how do you balance your checkbook?

>>>"MATH" is not a proposition.  "MATH" does not have a truth-value.

>>Why not? I accept it as true because I have faith that mathematicians know
>>more about Math than I.

>If you accept "math" as true, you don't know what you are doing.

What, no faith in mathematicians? Are you saying that the math that can
be known is not the true math? Jah math? Buddha math?

>>>Nonsense.  I do not hold it to be beyond doubt that the sun will come
>>>up tomorrow, but that doesn't keep me from setting my alarm clock and
>>>planning to go to work.

>>Then why do you?

>Because one can do things without being absolutely certain they will work.

Really? But, aren't you afraid that they may not work? How do you cope
with this possibility of failure? Are you lead by faith or blind faith?
Do you ignore the possibility of failure or do you accept it as part of
that which you perceive as reality? Why do you go on in the face of
possible defeat? Do you have faith in the unknown? Faith in yourself?
Faith that you will do the right thing? Even though death takes lives
beyond number everyday, do you still have faith in life? In your life?

>>>By *your* definition of faith (holding a proposition to be true
>>>without personally proving it), this statement is true.  By the proper
>>>definition of faith (what you call "blind faith"), this statement is
>>>false.

>>Proper? Are you speaking from authority? Are you asking me to have faith that
>>you know what you are talking about?

>"Proper", in this context, means "widely used".

Widely used? Is that not authority? Should I have faith in the authority
of "widely used"?

>>Right, in other words, you have faith that people of greater authority,
>>mathematicians, have done this verification for you.

>No, mathematicians can make mistakes.  For all I know, a mistake could be
>discovered tomorrow.  I use math because when I've used it in the past, it
>seems to work fairly well, and nobody's come up with anything better.  That
>doesn't mean I do not think it's possible it has mistakes in it.

Right, in other words, you have faith that for the most part,
mathematicians know what they are doing, after all they are of greater
authority, are they not? But not blind faith, right? Even mathematicians
are know to make mistakes. Authority has value, it is something that one
can put one's faith in, but authority can be wrong. This is why faith in
authority can work fairly well, but blind faith just sets one up for the
coming time when authority will make a mistake. The faithful take the
word of authority and use it as they see fit, but always question the
validity. The blind faithful are walking towards a cliff. When the
student is ready, the teacher appears. If the teacher says, "Follow me
and be free", do you have faith or blind faith? Do you learn from dogma,
or do you reject it, or do you merely become dogmatic? My dog is always
barking, but doesn't he remind you of Toto?
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:17255 alt.atheism:18098