HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:39:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec15.163902.19036
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <idoy.724431354@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
	(Mike Wilson) writes:

> By all means, vote for a first, second, and third choice.  Many
> already have done so, saying that they prefer one but would settle
> for something else.

I feel we need to have this idea incorporated more formally into the statement
of how the vote is being conducted and how the results will be evaluated, in
order to obtain a meaningful result.  Rather than simply being offered the
option of giving first, second, and third choice votes, it should be made a
basic part of the statement of how the vote is being conducted, and a formula
by which those choices will be evaluated should be announced, in my opinion.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Xref: sparky news.groups:24609 alt.config:8020 alt.folklore.computers:18051 alt.fan.john-palmer:461
From: klein@egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,alt.fan.john-palmer
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:09:42 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University College of Stunt Piloting

In article <scs.724598988@hela.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
>
>Before getting too excited, it's worth doing a bit of research . . .
>
>The Path: on the article when it arrived here was 
>  hela.iti.org!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news
>
>A few quick connects to the nntp servers on destroyer, caen and uunet show
>that neither of the first two has the article while the third does.  I
>was not able to retrieve the article from uunet, so cannot say what the
>path looks like there.  Cs.utexas.edu refuses connections (correctly)
>from all machines I have access to.  Usc is our feed.

Well, there was a cancel message sent.
Here's how it looked from umass.

>Control: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
>Path: umassd.edu!nic.umass.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news

-- 
Jeff Klein             | "Happily, Ral doffs his outer clothing for a
Browsing Boy of the LNH|  refreshing dip in one of the dangerous 
klein@frith.egr.msu.edu|  chemical vats." - Ty Templeton 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mjw@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Alien)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:50:35 GMT

>
>I believe a person's right to name himself or herself is
>fundamental, and so I accept that persons with European roots
>would call themselves native American.  My hope is that, for these
>native Americans, we can find a name for the newsgroup that will
>not be offensive to them.  And I believe we can do that if we
>work together.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu


What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Matt.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:10:54 EST
From: <BEA104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.cyber renaming and unmoderation
 <1992Dec12.055721.2255@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi>
 <1992Dec15.204648.24299@news2.cis.umn.edu>

    After reading many posts around this newsgroup, I've come to a conclusion.
Cyberpunk genre type games don't necessarily have anything new in them.  Yes,
Champions has AIs, you can replace body parts with magic, but this is not the
point.  The point is that when you combine all the aspects of Cyberpunk genre
games, including technical parts replacements/augmentations, amoral Megacorps,
a declining national influence, high-tech lowlifes, worldwide computer nets,
and more into a single game, its effect is distinctly "cyberpunk".  For me,
this includes the magic in ShadowRun, but so what?  The FEEL is there, and as
far as I'm concerned, that's all there needs to be to call it cyber.

                             Slash
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: Marc VanHeyningen <mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.security.email
X-Quoted: 38%
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:03:35 -0500

Thus said Ran Atkinson <atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil>:
>  This is a formal Request for Discussion on creation of a newsgroup
>to discuss electronic mail security and software to provide additional
>security in email.
>
>PROPOSAL:
>  Create a new newsgroup: 	comp.security.email

I would suggest that, since it pertains closely to computerized mail,
and because the comp.mail hierarchy is more entrenched than the
comp.security one, that a better name might be something like

	comp.mail.security
	comp.mail.secure
	comp.mail.crypt
	comp.mail.pem (*)

(*) This has the undesirable effect of implicitly excluding PGP.

Of the names above, I most prefer the first, since I think it sticks to
existing naming conventions best.

>  Moderation status:		unmoderated
>  Charter:			Discussions of security issues in electronic
>				mail, discussions of applications software
>				purporting to provide additional security in
>				electronic mail, discussions of security issues
>				in SMTP and ESMTP.

I believe the proposed charter strengthens the argument that comp.mail
is the Right Place.
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen    mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu    MIME & RIPEM accepted

Emacs is a fine windowing system, but I still prefer glass.
		- Tom Christiansen
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: All your postings to this newsgroup might go wasted!
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:57:08 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Dec18.173757.7781@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, w8sdz@tacom-emh1.army.mil (Keith Petersen) writes:
> 
> The rmgroup *was* from me.  David Lawrence left to go on extended
> vacation, omitting this piece of business which *should* have been done. 
> The continuation of the old newsgroup is disruptive to the operation of
> the new newsgroup.  The world shouldn't have to stop because someone
> goes on vacation.
> 
> The vote was overwhelming, the highest in Usenet history, to RENAME
> comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives to comp.archives.msdos.d.  The new
> newsgroup was created last week.  It is the companion group to
> comp.archives.msdos.announce, of which I am the official moderator. 


However, the normal practice for a renaming is to retain the old group for
a couple of months before removing it. This is what was done for all of the
renamed newsgroups I can remember. In addition, Dave Lawerence will schedule
the rmgroup and publish it in his summary notices for a few weeks prior to
his issuing the rmgroups. (Check out rec.bicycles, news.admin and other
renamings.) I think you were premature. The size of thevote really doesn't
matter by this time but the source of the newgroup/rmgroup does. Some sites
will ignore it until it comes from David. 

I don't think any damage has been done but until the rmgroup comes from David, expect that many sites will ignore it.






-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:11:18 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Dec9.150444.12962@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
	<1992Dec11.024825.11159@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu's message of Fri, 11 Dec 1992 02:48:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.024825.11159@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
   In article <1992Dec9.150444.12962@bcrka451.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
   >I've seen a lot of bitching about the current guidelines, but has anyone
   >of the complainers put forward a single concrete proposal?  Lots of call
   >for "better documentation" (with the expectation that some beneficient
   >"they" will write this) - but the problem is that users DON'T READ
   >DOCUMENTATION.

   OK,  users should read documentation.

   Now, which documentation are they supposed to read?  You see, there's lots of
   documentation, which is supposed to handle lots of different problems.  How is
   a user supposed to know which part of the documentation to read to find out
   enough to deal with his particular problem?

   Or do you mean that the users must read all the documentation, even the
   irrelevant parts?

Read the RFD and CFV that are posted to your group.  Read the post that
has third-grade English in its Subject that says the group is going
to be renamed.  If you can't be bothered, don't bother me.

   Usenet documentation, as is, is more of an excuse to pummel users with "why
   didn't you read the documentation?" than a true information source.  Just
   because the information is _in_ the documentation doesn't have to mean that
   failure to know the information is mostly the user's fault, at least in a real
   world where documentation can be poorly organized, hard to find, and
   misleading.

If it's too complicated or too hard to figure out, DON'T USE IT.
Build your own.

   >And no one has offered any solution to THAT problem
   >(if it is a problem - I'd hesitate to say that a system that gets
   >150000 posts a day to millions of users is broken.

   It's broken at many of the places where the documentation is supposed to
   matter.  A calculator that multiplies wrongly is broken, even if you usually
   use it to add or subtract and therefore rarely encounter problems.

How much does it cost to fix it?  And who's going to pay whom to fix
it.  The net is run mostly by volunteers.

Please don't bother to say it's broken if you don't have _concrete_
suggestions for improvement.  You'll just (help) generate flamewars.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Xref: sparky news.groups:24680 alt.native:1487
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.<whatever>.* [ native/indigenous/aboriginal ]
Date: 19 Dec 1992 02:40:10 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Dec17.023819.11899@gnosys.svle.ma.us>
	<1992Dec17.070620.18662@raven.alaska.edu> <wsm2a2=@rpi.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:47:14 GMT

In article <wsm2a2=@rpi.edu> speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights) writes:
   soc.culture.<whatever>.d            for miscellaneous discussion

I should have mentioned this in my previous post about .misc.
".d" is usually used when the parent group is moderated.  General
discussion goes into the .d group, so that people interested in
just the moderated info group can get it without wading through
flamewars, etc.

In this manner, perhaps news.groups should have been
news.announce.newgroups.d.  ;-)
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gumby@spock.uucp (Danny Richman)
Subject: RFD: rec.sport.rowing--ignore preceding posting its UNOFFICIAL
Organization: Choate Rosemary Hall
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:48:50 GMT

PLEASE ignore the preceding RFD: rec.sport.rowing posting, it is UNOFFICIAL.  
The real RFD: rec.sport.rowing will be coming soon.........


			-Dan

-- 
                                              gumby@choate.edu

 -My name's Gumby damnit! Not Gum! It's Gumby!
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:59:32 GMT

speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights) writes:

>   On alt.native, there has been a steady but low traffic; probably not
>   enough traffic to warrant the creation of a specific group for just
>   Native American issues.  But I think it's a good idea to consider

>Arlen


Hello Arlen,

Good to hear from you.  One of the reasons alt.native hasn't had much
traffic is that it isn't available on many sites.  The reason is
that (I'm told) it wasn't created through normal procedures and so
isn't carried everywhere.

About the creation of BOTH a soc.culture.native AND a 
soc.culture.native.american -- well, I think that may be asking just
a bit too much at this point.  It's been very difficult trying to
determine a concensus about what people think is appropriate.  I
would much  rather try to get one newsgroup through for now and
then let the traffic determine how the hierarchy should split.

How does having soc.culture.native sound to you for the time being?
It's the one name that really hasn't come under any heat yet.  For
that reason, it's the one I currently tend to support.

Thanks for your input!

Mike

==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================

Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you think, even when 
you take into account Hofstadter's Law.       -- Douglas Hofstadter
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic/balticum
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:48:00 GMT

Tapani Hietaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>Don't you think there might be some need of moderation?

Volunteering?

Just joking.

>According the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Finland, Estonia and
>Latvia were "the Baltic countries". In the document:
>"Die Baltischen La"nder, darunter Finnland, Estland und La"ttland".
>According to these "gentlemen", Lithuania belonged to central Europe.

Do you really think those guys should define the charter for a
newsgroup? Besides, they changed the division later.

>Of course, we could start "re-thinking" Baltic as a cluster
>of states and cultures (even some Polish and Danish affairs
>concern us, Sweden and St.Petersburg).
>
>Why not call the group soc.culture.balticum?

I'm doubtful to this. My Swedish-English dictionary gives
"The Baltic States" for "Baltikum". That is, "balticum" looks
suspiciously Swenglish to me. Native speakers out there, is
really "Balticum" used in English?

It is my impression that Baltic in contemporary English is used
for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, and maybe the Kaliningrad
area too. Of course, I am coloured by the Swedish usage, and
in Sweden we are not using anything with "balt" to denote The
Baltic Sea (we call it \stersj|n, "The East Sea"). Once again,
what to the native English speakers out there say?

Of course, soc.culture.baltics could be an alternative.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:26:25 GMT

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:
>again, saying all the same things as were said before.  It's almost
>(ALMOST) funny watching these previously silent folks mimic the exact
>chain of reasoning/argument/progress toward the inevitible brick wall. 

It's *real* funny if you ask me. (But you didn't)

[Reasonable summary of the current position deleted]
>In short, the response to your proposal is "Who will propose the RFD?
>The people who think the vote was fine don't see the need, and those
>who think the vote was bad object to accepting the passed vote on
>principle."  

Which is the brick wall that has been mentioned previously. Meanwhile,
users of both groups suffer a split in traffic volume, and a disconnection
from the SYNTH-L list which contained many interesting synth posters. 

While my position stands, I do _care_ about the users in both forums.
(Those of you who flame that last statement _will_ be ignored) My
question is...what do we do about this? I am prepared to gateway one
group into the other if that is the only way we can resolve this 
problem. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

To test that which has been tested is ignorance.
      To try to test something without the means of testing is even worse
Xref: sparky news.groups:24719 soc.motss:53142 ba.motss:2059
From: dgreen@smurf.sti.com (Dan R. Greening)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.* / Automoderation.
Followup-To: news.groups,soc.motss
Date: 19 Dec 1992 16:12:27 -0800
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

[Jess (Anderson), Bob Donahue, Robert Coren, and Paul Asente suggest 
 automoderation to get rid of most anti-gay traffic in soc.motss, limiting to 
 NON cross-posted articles.]

Hi there, oldtimers!

I haven't read soc.motss more than three times in the last two
years, because the volume is far too great and the quality far too low.
Those three times were because some cross-post caught my attention.
Jess, who has frequently appeared on the top 20 USENET posters list, 
appears to have reached my level of frustration, which astounds me.  It 
must be truly bad.

I proposed an experiment about a year and a half ago, that we create an
automoderated "soc.lesbiangay" or something similar.  I suggested limiting 
authors to one post per day then.  It went down in flames.  My rule was too
arbitrary.

I love the suggested "no crossposts" rule, and it seems to
have almost universal support.  It is ingenious for its intended goal.

If you all decide to create a group which has this no-crossposts 
automoderator, name the group something blatent, like "soc.lesbiangay".  
The only reason "soc.motss" has attracted casual gay/lesbian readers is 
because of cross-posts.  Soc.motss has an impossibly baroque and closeted 
name.  If you disallow cross-posts, you must create the new group with an 
obvious name.

I suggest it be viewed as an experiment, with some flexibility in 
determining which rules to apply.  There ought to be a ".rejected"
group for interested meta-moderators, so they can evaluate what is being 
rejected.  Another advantage of a ".rejected" newsgroup is that no one can
claim they are not getting a forum, since some people will read both.
Furthermore problems with the moderation rules will be apparent to all.
If the "rejected" group ends up getting lots of good articles, readers will 
quickly complain.

It is hard to infer whether such an idea has support, because many people
who would like a higher quality soc.motss have already been chased away.
I am going to cross-post this article once to ba.motss, with 
followups to soc.motss,news.groups, and hope that ba.motss readers who
like their low-volume, higher quality newsgroup don't throttle me.  If you
want to talk about this idea, please do it in soc.motss or news.groups.

Warm regards to all soc.motss readers, old and new,
-- 
____
\  /Dan Greening    Software Transformation   1601 Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd, #100
 \/dgreen@sti.com   (408) 973-8081 x313       Cupertino, CA 95014
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic/balticum
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 19:16:37 GMT

Tapani Hietnaniemi (thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi) writes:
>  3) There is no common Baltic language, either.
>     Estonians and Finns are Baltic Finns. This important thing
>     is neglected in many cases (even in Scandinavia).

1) There is no common language Africa either.

2) About the concept of Baltic Finns, permit me to quote a mail from
   another Finnish correspondent who nails this down very well:

==>This objection is totally out-of-place here. "Baltic Finnish" is a
==>purely linguistic term for a group of languages around the Gulf of
==>Finland. I have never seen it anywhere else than in texts dealing
==>with classification of the Finno-Ugric languages. I am sure that
==>very few Finns know their language belongs to a group by that name.
==>(By the way: Finnish, Swedish and German don't need any word related to
==>"Baltic" here, it is "|stersj|finska spr}k" and similar expressions).
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Date: 12 Dec 92 03:21:16 GMT
Organization: GSP

In article <1992Dec12.012625.8335@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Which is the brick wall that has been mentioned previously. Meanwhile,
>users of both groups suffer a split in traffic volume, and a disconnection
>from the SYNTH-L list which contained many interesting synth posters. 

The split in traffic volume will go away in about 50 days or so when
a rmgrp is issued for rec.music.synth.

The disconnection from the SYNTH-L list will not go away; the owner
of list has indicated (in private mail to me; I'll be happy to ask
him to tell you personally if you don't believe what I'm about to
tell you) that the users of the list on the Bitnet side prefer
that it remain disconnected.  It is certainly out-of-order for
you or me (or anyone else, for that matter) to insist that members
of a mailing list gateway that list to a newsgroup against their will.
In other words: if the name ever does change back, that does not
mean that the newsgroup will be reconnected to SYNTH-L.

---Rsk
Xref: sparky scruz.general:128 la.general:1014 oc.general:129 sac.general:37
From: erics@infoserv.com (Eric S. Smith)
Newsgroups: scruz.general,la.general,oc.general,sac.general
Subject: Re: Hong Kong Employment Interest Survey
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 09:59:25 PDT
Organization: Reigning Cats and Dogs
Reply-To: erics@infoserv.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


bri@netcom.com (Business Research Int'l) writes:

> The following is a marketing survey for a new international employment 
> publication with an emphasis on employment in Hong Kong.  If you are 
> interested in working in Hong Kong or the Asia Pacific region, please
> spend a few minutes to fill out the survey below.  Qualified individuals
> will receive complementary copies of the employment guide when available.

What happens to these Hong Kong jobs after 1997?

-----
Eric Smith
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610


Newsgroups: scruz.general,la.general,oc.general,sac.general
From: wilkes@ekrl.com (John Wilkes)
Subject: Re: Hong Kong Employment Interest Survey
Organization: Equine Kinetics Research Laboratories
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:07:39 GMT

In article <D2150056.kuq3tc@erics.infoserv.com> erics@infoserv.com writes:
>
>What happens to these Hong Kong jobs after 1997?

Nothing happens to the *jobs* but after 1997 your paycheck is sent direcly
to Bejing.

John Wilkes

-- 
inet: wilkes@ekrl.com (John Wilkes) | "The healthy gum tissue of our liberty
bang: {netcom,scruz}!maow!wilkes    |  is being eaten away by the periodontal
usps: Box 2323, Los Gatos, CA 95031 |  disease of government regulation."
icbm: 37 02 30 N / 121 48 45 W      |                          -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: scruz.general,la.general,oc.general,sac.general
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Hong Kong Employment Interest Survey
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:49:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.072957.2313@netcom.com>, bri@netcom.com (Business Research Int'l) writes:

[]
  A patently offensive commercial use of the Internet. Please go and
read the AUP. Besides, most of these ventures are complete scams.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: pgh.general