From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: gays in scouting
Date: 22 Nov 92 17:56:12 CST
Distribution: usa
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Nov21.185002.26805@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, an_ind21@oswego.oswego.edu (J. homer) writes:
> Dear sirs,
> 	I would like to ask a very simple question.  Where in the scout oath 
> or law does it state that "A Scout is strait."?

There is no place, as you and I both know, that states this principle.
However, the BSA Scout Oath states that Scouts are ...."morally
straight" and in the Scout Law, Scouts are "Reverent". Those two parts
of statements form the basis for the BSA's stand on homsexaulity and
Scouting. 

> Where in any of scoutings basic principles does it imply that a scout
> may not be a homosexual?

One of the purposes of the Boy Scouts of America is to develop youth
of "good, sound moral courage and character" and character development
is inherent in all of it's programs and options. 

> I myself am not a Homosexual and have no desire to engage in homosexual
> practices.  On the other hand I have met several Homosexuals, both male 
> and female, and it was not until I was told that they were homosexuals 
> that I had any Idea.
> Just because a person is a Homosexual does not mean they are evil or out
> to convert the world.

I wholeheartely agree with you.  I too, have interacted closely with
several lesbigays, both in my civilian occupation as well as in my
military life.  I see those people as contributors and as people that
want to be where they are and are willing to work toward the common
good of the task at hand.  I also have met several that were members
of the BSA until they or the BSA forced them from active participation
based on the principles of the BSA. 

There are several on-going issues here. One issue is the ability of
lesbigays to function closely in a environment designed to education
children without imparting their own personal sexual identity upon
them or other adults.  I call this the "molestation factor".

Another issue is that of allowing lesbigays to occupy positions of
responsibility in Scouting, which may or may not result in local
adaptations of the basic Scouting program into areas that should not
be entered into (sexual communication and discussion).  I call this
the "leadership factor". 

Finally, this list have brought out continually the idea that several
religious groups are on record as to opposing homosexaulity because it
is "wrong, not the way god intended for humans to interact, and is
against all elements of our tenants of faith".  Since Scouting urges
youth and adults to serve their faith as well as their country, this
factor is the most important one in this discussion, the "reverance
factor".  

All three issues are tough ones for an organization that has depended
upon private handouts and public recognition and support over its
history to tackle and deal with successfully. 

A small history lesson:  In the early beginnings of the BSA, several
task forces were created to "deal with tough problems that the BSA
WILL have to handle in order for it to have positive public acceptance
(the history of the BSA, 1947). "   Councils in the south had separate
"inner councils" for blacks, jews and other non-Catholic or
non-Protestant Scouts and Scouters.  There were separate camping
facilities for those "inner councils" to attend and there were token
representation on the local Council board by those heads of those
"inner councils".  This is how the BSA dealt with that problem because
they knew that if they stood up to their declaration of
non-discrimination, not only would they lose public confidence in the
program in the Deep South, they could lose a significant number of
youth to other organizations. 

A good move, says many.  That is, until the nation was forced into
assimilation of ALL of it's "separate but equal" facilities and the
BSA found itself on the verge of losing lots of money due to a court
case involving a female Cub Scout leader and a black Scout that wanted
to serve as Den Chief.  The Cub Scout leader wanted this particular
young man to serve because he knew the boys in that Den.  He also
lived in the same housing development in Atlanta.  The Scout wanted to
serve as Den Chief because there was no Cub Scout pack nearby in his
"District" (which was a subset of the white District) and looked at
this position as a way to become a Life Scout. 

The case never made it to court because of the federal decisions
handed down in racial matters.  

I bring this all up to tell you that soon, we will find out in which
direction this "exclusion" will follow when we change our federal head
of government as well as our chief profesional head of our movement.
There are several candidates for this position that are truly
supportive of the "pro-everyone" case, as is the Scout Executives of
the Los Angeles and New York Area Councils.  There are others that 
do support the BSA stance, as well. 

When the nation as a whole decides that everyone has a place in this
society, Scouting will also decide this as well.  We did so with
women, first allowing them to serve as anything they wanted to except
for positions involving the transitions for Cub Scouting to Boy
Scouting (WEBELOS Den Leader and Assistant), Scoutmaster and Assistant
Scoutmaster, and as Lone Scout Friend and Counselor. 

We had to change the Lone Scout Friend and Counselor first.  Then the
rest.  Today, we have women occupying the highest levels in our local
Councils, Regions and nationally, and they are not "token members" as
we have done with Hispanics and Blacks. 

> If a gentleman is a gifted leader and the best scoutmaster you have ever
> seen. How does the fact that he is Gay change his Ability's?

The fact that he or she is not straight does not change their
leadership and personal qualities.  It does, however, changes the
dynamics of this person's ability to inspire and become a positive
role model for those youth.  Back to the reverence factor:  We are
teaching Scouts a basic respect for the differences in our country and
at the same time, telling them to be true to their personal beliefs. 
A gay or lesbian Scoutmaster cannot give out that imperiative without
it becoming a question (from some Scout) that "If God (in my church)
says that you're sinning, how can then I listen to you??"
The BSA is NOT denying the presence of lesbigays in our nation; it IS
denying them PERMISSION to serve as positive role models of behavior
for its youth members.

> Does he stop being a good leader? Does he no longer teach scouting principles?
> Many of you may argue that if they are gay they will Molest their scouts.
> This is just plain stupid...

Several studies, done by people supporting ANTI and PRO viewpoints
have proved without a shadow of doubt that molestation occurs because
of a personal dysfunction, NOT because a person is of a certain sexaul
preference.  However, remember that the BSA is under the public eye
24/7 and, for purely financial and support reasons, CANNOT take the
risk presently that ONE instance of a gay or lesbian Scouter harmfully
injuring a Scout (imagine the headlines by itself, with NO facts
either way!), and so have "barred entry" by those professing to be
gay, bisexual or lesbian as leaders in the program. 

Note the last sentence.  PROFESSING.  There are lots of lesbigays in
the Scouting program right now. There are lots in your school system
and on your college campuses and in your workplaces as well.  When
they come forward as Scouting leaders, they too ae asked to leave.  
"Not fair", some of you will scream.  "This is just as dishonest as
lying about a test or telling people you're from Chicago when you
have never seen the city!"  True. But when you want this country to be
run like the former Soviet Union, whereby everyone is investigating
everyone else and we have an entire branch (not a agency like our CIA,
but an ENTIRE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT) to root out and find those, this
is something that we just have to deal with and pray that our
collective faiths in PEOPLE will someday come to a head and we can get
rid of policies like this and move FORWARD. 

> I have met people who are perfectly straight, and still molest scouts.
> 
> I would chalenge any of you shortsited narrowminded idiots who feel that 
> I am wrong to respond with PROOF. Not speculations feelings or ideas, PROOF.

I refuse to enter into a "proof" argument with you or anyone else. 
What I have stated here is the policy of the BSA toward this issue and
my own personal slant on how I see it being resolved.  

What *I* get pissed about is people that want to PROVE something in
this program.  This program is NOT about "proving something".  I can
tell you or anyone else this from personal knowledge.  This is about
imparting and building youth of strong character, of good leadership
and physical and mental strenght.  It is about showing them the
principles of citizenship and then allowing them to go out and change
the world for the better.  People get *very* angry with the "I demand
crowd".  Americans don't DEMAND things, we work together to make
things happen positively.  

In my Troops, when a Scout "tells" me that "I deserve this because
of...", I gently inform him that first, as a American, you are no more
in a position to demand anything from me as I do you. Second, only
those that follow the procedure and request things do, even if it does
take time. Finally, we see those that demand things all of the time.
They are the ones that hold hostages, that robs and steal and cheat,
and those are the ones that rape and yes, molest.  

Those are the ones that are in jail.  Or we kill them in an attempt to
get back those they "demanded". Or, we allow their own to slowly creep
up and destroy them. 


He goes away understanding that I am not going to give into him just
because he is unique and therefore MUST have whatever it is I am
in possession of; and that he can receive whatever it is by simply
exercising what this country is all about--work, respect and
knowledge. 

And *that" is what you fail to unerstand about this issue. 

> 
> Yours in Scouting
> 
> 							J. HOMER
> 										Eagle Scout '91
Settummanque!

Mike Walton 
Greenwood, Kentucky