From: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
Subject: *CHOLERA* (Attn: Bulsari & Houtz)
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:33:37 GMT

[A.Bulsari's unsubstantiated opinion that modern medicine is suspect, deleted]

Mr. Collins said this:
>Oh boy, this is utter malarkey. like or not, we would be dying in
>droves if not for 'modern' medicine. and modern medicine has been
 ^^^^^^
To which Mr. Houtz said this:
  Mr. Collins, this simply isn't true.   It depends upon what you call
  "modern" medicine.  Abhay was talking about drug and vaccine therapy.
 
  The fact is, the causes of much of our disease has more to do with 
  overcrowding and poverty, and overindulgence, than things that *must*
  be cured with drugs or prevented with vaccines.  By eliminating 
  overcrowding, and unsanitary conditions, we have alleviated far 
  more disease than any vaccine or antibiotic has prevented or cured.

I say:
True, but not the whole story.  Without medical science to diagnose
AIDS, tell me how we would have any idea as to how it is spread?
Even that it was just one disease?  We wouldn't, would we?  

>built on the paradigm of testing its ideas on living systems, ie
>animals. the result? death to millions of laboratory animals? yes
>substantial reduction in human death and suffering? yes also.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  Again, this is a highly questionable assertion.  While it is true that
  modern vaccines like polio, rubella, etc., have prevented much suffering,
  it is not clear that vaccines and other drug treatments were the only
  course of action.

Ok, tell us *WHY NOT*?  Obviously it is not clear to you, but it certainly
is clear to alot of us.  How about in the case of Smallpox?  Vaccines 
have made that bug *EXTINCT*!  The only other way to stop something like
that would have been to have no interaction whatsoever with anyone in
the world.  How would you have pulled that off?  What about polio?  I
was born before Dr. Salk invented polio vaccine.  Hundreds of thousands
of people have died of that one!  Paralysis.  What a wonderful way to
die.  Now the only polio outbreaks happen in areas were people don't
get vaccinated for religious reasons or out of ignorance.  We could
stop gangrene by removing all sharp objects from the world, but it
is easier to treat it with antibiotics and hyperbaric O2 when it
occurs.  Ignorance has killed more people than any disease in history.  

  In fact, MUCH cruelty and death in the laboratory is entirely unnecessary.

True again.  MUCH, but not ALL.

  A huge percentage of test animal deaths occur in the endless unnecessary
  repetition of cruel experiments for teaching biology and medicine, and could
  be simulated on computers or dispensed with altogether.   

Would you want a surgeon to have his first experience cutting on something
be your body?  Please volunteer for that before I go under the knife.

>there is no easy answer to this one, in spite of what extremists
>will tell you. it seems a little ridiculous to debunk modern
>medicine now, after its figured out cholera, diabetes, tuberculosis
                                     ^^^^^^^
   Funny you should mention cholera, Michael.  It shows how little you
   actually know about the history of treatment of infectious diseases,
   and shows that your are entirely unqualified to comment on this string.

That kind of remark is shows *YOUR* lack of understanding of the topic.
You are talking about *PREVENTION*.  *TREATMENT* is a totally different 
thing.
 
   Cholera was eliminated from Europe BEFORE the germ theory was known, and
   without ANY drug therapy.   That's right.  NO DRUG THERAPY was used in
   the successful fight against the cholera epidemics in Europe in the
   19th century.

Yes, but it was a *PHYSICIAN* (John Snow ~1850, I believe) that noticed 
that most of the cases came from users of a single well.  He removed
the pump handle.  Other actions were also taken as you say later.
HOWEVER, those *INFECTED* suffered the most horrible symptom.  Symptoms
that medical science at that time could do nothing about:  First
the victim suffers from uncontrolable diarrhea and vomiting.
This caused dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, which, eventually
causes violent muscle spasms that break bones!  Then, finally the
poor bastard dies.  Cholera is really wonderful stuff!  And even
with public health projects, it still will occur (although much less
often).  Modern medical science can (using drug therapy and IV electrolyte 
solutions) keep the person alive and relatively comfortable (but still
pretty miserable) until the disease runs it's course (~1 week).  
You make it sound like they were *CURED*!  They *DIED* without the 
drug therapy.  Those who were infected, *DIED A SLOW AND HORRIBLE 
DEATH BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS*.  WHY DIDN'T YOU POINT THAT OUT????

Yes, public health efforts (designed primarily by medically trained
personnel) can prevent alot of disease, but without their knowledge,
how would we know what we are dealing with?  Much malaria and 
yellow fever has been prevented by draining and/or spraying swamps
with insecticide or oil.  Not very ecologically correct IMO.  Or,
medicines and/or vaccines can be given to prevent the disease.

>etc, etc, etc. the western system has delivered us from a good deal
>of suffering. there is obviously a balance to be struck as we increase
>our knowledge. we have to start to include animals in our ethical
>consciousness if we are to survive. but to suggest that 'much
>of what mainstream physicians have to say has limited credibilty'
>is an absurd generalisation. 

   I consider this statement "much of what mainstream physicians have to
   say has limited credibility" to be an extremelly prudent position.

Why?  Do you have any medical training?  Formal education in the field?
I am a Medical Technologist, Biologist and Systems Analyst who has
done much work with Epidemiological data analysis.  Just what is *YOUR*
background that you can make all these assertions?  

   I do not take what ANY physician says as the gospel.  

Nor should you, as with any professional be they a lawyer, plumber or
physician.  ANY advice (especially what you read on the net) should
be taken with a grain of salt.  But not ignored.

   My personal physician, whom I like a great deal, told me three years ago
   that if I didn't get my weight down and my blood pressure down, I would
   be in for severe back problems (due to pre-existing condition), and
   I would be a prime candidate for a heart attack.    Later, I told him I
   was considering becoming vegan.   He told me flat out that I would be
   dead in 6 months if I stuck to such a diet.
                                        
That might have been due to a condition that you didn't understand.  Just
because you didn't die, does not mean that you didn't face a grave risk.  
Just what kind of risk do you think he was talking about?  If you had a 
50-50 chance of dying of something, would you want him to say "Sure, go 
ahead"?  The "lethal dose" of a chemical is estimated from what would
kill say 25% or 50% (LD25 or LD50) of the people given that dose.  Would
you take, say, the LD15 dose?  You'd probably live, but I wouldn't call
it smart to do so.  Same thing when a physician tells you that something
"will kill you"...  It might. 

Mr. Houtz, you should x-post your article to Sci.med if you really think 
that you have a leg to stand on.  Otherwise stop spreading opinions that 
might be dangerous to the readers on this newsgroup, should they believe 
you.

For anyone who might accuse me of posting irrelevant things to this
newsgroup:  Wash (with sterile water) and peel your *vegetables* 
if you are going to eat them raw in a Cholera zone and wash your
hands first.  ;-)

Ted Feuerbach - Scientific Systems Consultant
Disclaimer:     Monsanto didn't say this, I did!
Stupid Quote:   Money is simply alcohol in a 
                more easily transportable form.
                                           - Me