From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:01:36 GMT

L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
 
# 	I agree, Christianity has been a scourge on the human race.  It's a
# Belief System (tm) perpetuated through money and violence, and the various
# conquests and inquisitions have surely left civilization bereft of many
# potential creative people.  Hmm... let me amend this to ALL religions, but
# certainly Christianity stands out in modern times.
 
# 	Therefore, Jewish people have not been known to wage wars based on
# their Belief System (tm)?  Remember, this is a question, not rhetoric, so
# please treat it as such.

Depends on your point of view. For instance, two great rebellions of the
Jews - against the Selukites and the Romans - occured because of the
attempt of these foreign rulers to eradicate the Jewish religion by
force (by executing practicing Jews etc). These were, to the best of
my knowledeg, the last instances of Jews going to war for religious reasons.

# 	From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
# number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
# been able to rain down aplenty.  I do understand that both groups have had
# great difficulty finding meaningful jobs and proper housing, but I've also
# understand that the Ethiopian Jews have been sequestered in the remote
# lands of Israel.  Care to comment?

a) There where/are much, much more Jews in the ex-USSR than in Ethiopia.
   I have not heard of any case in which a quota was put on the number
   of Ehtiopian Jews.

b) Just having returned from Israel, I can say that your information
   is false; Russian and Ehtiopian Jews are put in more or less the same
   type of places. That is not to say there are not different difficulties
   in absorbing Ethiopians than in absorbing Russians - the two are very
   different cultures. What has that got to do with Judaism I fail to see.

# 	I believe the statement you've responded to is attempting to 
# indicate the perceived isolationism of Israel by the Western world. Since
# "ethnic groups" and not "religions" is the subject of the common ground,
# your response is misguided.  I do believe any nation, not just Israel,
# *should* be searching for a common ground between other nations. Using
# one's enemies as an excuse not to pursue such is simply thinly-veiled
# isolationism, and possibly at worst, xenophobic.

Well, every attentive student of history will agree thta Jews, and Israel,
have good reasons to be xenophobic. Do you agree?
 
# 	I myself root for the Human Race team.  

If only we had more like you! Please, I am not being sarcastic. But
you cannot blame Jews (or any other persecuted group) for not behaving
as if all people shared your opinions; obviously, most people don't.

## Wayne, what do you want from us?  Do you want us to totally change all
## aspects of Judaism so that more people will want to convert?
## Christianity did this, didn't it?   Have you noticed that Judaism is the
## oldest monotheistic religion?  Have you noticed that we have survived
## attrocities that no other group has been subjected to?  We must be doing
## something right, we're still here.  
 
# 	I don't know what Wayne wants from what you define as "us," other
# than what he's asked for (rational examination of Israel's ideological
# presuppositions), 

I have not yet found a shread of rationalism, good will, or humility,
in McGuire's posters. But enough on that.

# but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
# the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
# were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.

Well, that is a totally different issue than bashing Judaism, as has been
done here endlessly by our "good Rabbi". You are talking about the
politics of the state of Israel. Certainly, the situation is not so
simple, and Israel cannot be portrayed as the only villain on the scene.

-Danny Keren.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26337 talk.politics.soviet:10785 soc.history:11016