HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: walsh@optilink.UUCP (Mark Walsh)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Phil Ronzone sez: YOU LIE!!!
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:03:14 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

From article <1992Oct14.043918.9872@panix.com>, by roy@panix.com (Roy Radow):
> For those who may have missed it before, below are the findings of a
> Special Subcommittee on Investigations concerning NAMBLA.

> GCN September 21-27, 1986

>  To quote from the US Senate Investigations Report- Lt. William Thorne,
> a detective with the New Jersey Prosecutor's Office testified:

> "'pro-pedophilia groups such as NAMBLA "are not as severe a threat to
> our children as we may feel they are."  It is the pedophile with no
> organized affiliations who is the real threat to children, Thorne said.'"

For a limited time, catch this special offer!!!  You too can be
a NAMBLA certified pedophile!  That's right, no more harrassment
from law enforcement agencies, not even those inconvenient late
light police line-ups!  You'll be proud to have our framed plaque
adorn your den or office wall.  How much would you pay for all of
this?  But wait, there's more!!!  Order now, and you will receive
absolutely free the official NAMBLA Guide to Coercive and
Manipulative Techniques.  Six hundred and sixty six pages of
information that you will treasure for a lifetime.  So what are
you waiting for when you too can be affiliated with our leading
organization?  Order today!!

> Roy Radow               roy@panix.com         ...rutgers!cmcl2!panix!roy
> North American Man/Boy Love Association -For a packet containing a sample
> Bulletin, publications list and membership information send $1.00 postage
> to: NAMBLA Info,  Dept.RR,  PO Box 174,  Midtown Station,  NYC NY  10018.
-- 
Mark Walsh (walsh@optilink) -- UUCP: uunet!optilink!walsh
AOL: BigCookie -- Amateur Radio: KC6RKZ@WX3K -- USCF: L10861
"What, me worry?" - William M. Gaines, 1922-1992
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: pearson_steven@tandem.com (Steven R. Pearson)
Subject: Columbus *DID* discover the Americas (was Re: WHAT indigenous people?)
Organization: Tandem Computers Inc.,  Cupertino, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:30:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.205513.4801@pb2esac.uucp>, rgrodr1@pb2esac.uucp (Robert Rodriguez) writes:
> 
> The children are still being taught that Columbus was a
> great man who DISCOVERED America.  The simple fact is you cannot
> discover a land where people already live.

Not true.  Discovery does not have to be first discovery.  Surely you have
happened upon a special place while out hiking, or have come across some
particularly enlightening piece of knowlege while reading a book.  Hey,
you just discovered something!

What Columbus discovered was of course much bigger.  He and those who
followed brought knowlege of a huge land that was previously unknown to many.
He was the first to bring lasting knowlege of America to Europe.

I don't know what they are teaching in school these days, but when I was in
school, it was pretty clear to me what was meant.  Every account of Columbus
did mention that the land was already peopled.  No doubt though that the
presentation was Eurocentric.  Natch, since most Americans are of European
ancestry.

-steve p.  (opinions mine, no warranty, standard disclaimers)
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: School vouchers
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:04:16 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <5417@gold.gvg.tek.com>, mikea@zorba.gvg.tek.com (Michael P. Anderson) writes:
> In article <1992Oct8.003010.18500@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
> >In article <1992Sep30.015942.12061@ntmtv> jazanopa@ntmtv.UUCP (Patricia Jazanoski) writes:
# ##This voucher system is just people throwing up their hands in
# ##frustration, and then protecting their own interests (children).
# 
# #No, it's people saying "there's a good school over there, why
# #can't my kids go there?"
# 
# OK, great. Al Gore's kids and Dan Quayle's kids go to that school over there.
# I want my kids to go there too, and at public expense.
# 
# Oh, I'll only get to have SOME of the tuition funded at public expense? Gee,

It depends what school you send them to.  The private school my 
daughter goes to is clearly superior to the public school she
attended last year.  Yet, it costs only $2000/year.  Any voucher
plan that didn't cover this in full wouldn't be much of a plan.

# which schools can I now afford with my snappy new voucher coupons. Oh, now
# I see. I can send my kid to these newly degraded "private" (used to be
# public) schools.

Which voucher plan proposes to scrap the public schools?

# UNLESS YOU PLAN TO FULLY FUND ALL TUITIONS, VOUCHERS ARE WRONG. 
# 
# 	1) They are a costly way to provide the illusion of egalitarianism.
# 
# 	2) They will trash the public school system.

A bit late to worry about that, isn't it?

# 	3) They will be a de facto method of funding religious education,

As opposed to the current scheme for funding antireligious education.

# 	   which violates the spirit of church/state separation.

Which is not required by the Constitution.

# I cannot for the life of me understand why people support school vouchers
# unless they wish the above three items to come true. And if that's the
# case, I will fight you with everything I've got.
# 
# 								     MPA

Because the public schools reflect your leftist agenda, almost
exclusively.  Not surprisingly, the kids come out poorly educated.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
Xref: sparky ba.politics:6005 ca.politics:8588
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Differences with Boxer on Education
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:39:27 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Oct8.171726.3512@island.COM>, guido@island.COM (Guido Marx) writes:
> In article <92281.33695.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
# #The ACLU and others don't want to let students use classrooms for Bible studies
# #during lunch hour, but they will let any other groups (including non-Christian
# #religious activities) use them.  
# 
# Can you give some kind of a reference for this statement ?  When I was
# in high school (I graduated in '77 from a public high school in Orange
# County, Ca.) we were given a lecture by a representative from the
# Campus Crusade for Christ.  This lecture was held DURING class time
# in a class MANDATORY for graduation.  Attendance was compulsory.  I
# personally was offended by this.  Further, no such lecture was given
# by representatives of any other religions.  I have a hard time believing
# that Christians are discriminated against in our public schools.
# 
# Guido
# 
# P.S.  The Campus Crusade for Christ regularly held meetings in our
# school, and we also had a bible study group which met once a week
# during lunch hour.

When my wife was in high school in Santa Monica, 1975-78, they had
to do such activities in secret, because the administration made it
clear that it would be a violation of law.

When Congress was debating the issue last year, examples were cited
from Omaha and Newport Beach where such clubs were prohibited.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Moral Premises--    was Some more about 'RIGHTS'
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:45:44 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <98457@bu.edu> I (kane@buast7.bu.edu--Hot Young Star) wrote
hastily:

>Plato? Aristotle? Alexander? Julius? Hadrian? Richard Coeur-de-Leon?
>Leonardo? Donatello? Michelangelo? Francis and Anthony Bacon? Newton?**
>Somoza? Whitman? Melville? Wilde? Proust? Forster? Orton? Britten?
 ^^^^^^
>Bernstein?

Ugh...Baruch would be rolling over in his grave...that's SPINOZA, not
Somoza! Any resemblance to Anastasio is purely typographical!  :-)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Differences with Boxer on Education
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 16:21:07 GMT

In <1992Oct7.013340.27276@ntmtv>, Patricia Jazanoski writes:

>Could you please elaborate on the "you CAN stop someone from praying"?
>(i.e. give examples) Prayer seems like a pretty personal issue to me,
>so why does Bruce need to get involved in someone's private thoughts?
>Can't students take a moment of silence before eating lunch or during
>quiet "work" periods?

I have no problem with that.  I also think that abortion is a very personal
decision, and why does Boxer need to get into the wallets of people who
dislike abortion to fund it for those who want it?  Same government intrusion,
different ideology.  Yet I'll bet you favor THAT intrusion, don't you?
Isn't forcing religious people to fund abortions through taxes an infringement
on their First Amendment freedom of religion?  Forcing them to support some-
thing their religion forbids?  That's like Arab-Americans paying taxes which go
to Israeli aid.  None of these government intrusions are good or just.

>Patti Jazanoski

Tim Irvin   j056600@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
******************************************************************************
FLASH!  Card-carrying Libertarian attempts to solve problems realistically!
        Film at 11.
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: No on 9
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:05:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.162603.4145@netcom.com>, phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
> In article <98046@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>     >Well, then don't become a Shaker. (It may be too late,
>     >anyhow!) :-)
> 
> Exactly! Point, set, and match. The Shakers are gone now, Dead. Dodo time.
> Wrong philosophy! Bzzzzt! Wrong answer.

Close...  There are still a handful of Shakers left.  There's even one
group still accepting new members (and that's been denounced by the
other 'group' that's still around).

> While another group of strong-religious mindset, that believe very very
> strongly in private property, the Amish, thrive.

A group that is suffering from genetic problems brought on by
excessive inbreeding.  It may yet be that medical problems will
destroy them.

> Oh, and ask the victims of any communally-"owned" State (if you can
> find any alive) how they feel about it.
> 
> People that live under communism (the correct name for your idea)
> generally have to be forcibly kept from running away from it.

According to recent surveys, some 25% of the residents of the former
East Berlin would like to return to the 'old days'.  It's rumored that
popular T-shirt in the area says "We want our wall back--and 6 feet
higher".

That government may not appeal to you--and it certainly doesn't appeal
to me--but there appear to be some folks that think they were better
off than they are now.

	--Hal

-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: pearson_steven@tandem.com (Steven R. Pearson)
Subject: WHAT indigenous people?
Organization: Tandem Computers Inc.,  Cupertino, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:38:11 GMT

What's all this I'm hearing lately about so-called indigenous peoples?
It's not like they { evolved into humans } here on this continent. 
                   { were created by God }
Heck, WASP that I am (and a wicked, oppressive male to boot), I am just
as indigenous as any Native American living today.  I was born here too!
My ancestors came from Europe, theirs from Asia.  Our common ancestors
probably came from Africa.

Don't get me wrong; I am not denying that Europeans gave their ancesotrs
a raw deal. Part of me is sensitive to that.  And I don't have any
problem with them wishing to preserve their culture.  Another part of
me says, hey, this kind of thing happens all the time.  Life is tough;
people get conquered.  Especially if they are outnumbered and not quite
up to date technologically.  And nothing is ever going to bring back
"the good old days" for these folks.

That being the case, why can't we focus on the future, that which *can*
be changed.  It seems to me that the best thing would be to integrate
Native Americans more fully into the society.  I think this would go much
further toward restoring their dignity than trying to stir up racial guilt
over things that none of us experienced and none of us can change.

-steve p.  (opinions mine, no warranty, standard disclaimers)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: No on 9
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:26:03 GMT

In article <98046@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
    >In article <1992Oct8.211349.19801@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com
    >(Phil Ronzone) writes:
    >
    >>In article <97989@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
    >>writes:
    >>
    >>>Man can exist without individually owned property (beyond his
    >>>own body) as long as he can overcome his possessiveness.
    >>>
    >>Eh? Without air, water, food, shelter, clothing, medical
    >>care, ... All those tangible items of property -- man can
    >>exist without 'em?
    >>
    >Shall I be explicit? Notice I said "individually-owned".
    >Humans are perfectly capable of eating and living communally.
    >
    >>Not me.
    >>
    >Well, then don't become a Shaker. (It may be too late,
    >anyhow!) :-)

Exactly! Point, set, and match. The Shakers are gone now, Dead. Dodo time.
Wrong philosophy! Bzzzzt! Wrong answer.

While another group of strong-religious mindset, that believe very very
strongly in private property, the Amish, thrive.


Oh, and ask the victims of any communally-"owned" State (if you can
find any alive) how they feel about it.

People that live under communism (the correct name for your idea)
generally have to be forcibly kept from running away from it.

You see, they like to survive ...



-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

If all the contributions of Dead White Males, a.k.a. Dead White Loathsome
Oppressors, were to vanish, you'd have the Politically Correct(tm) Loathsome
Oppressors using dull rocks to hunt and the Politically Correct Women of
Vision and Strength(tm) using leaves for tampons.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: Cate3.OSBU_North@XEROX.COM
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Santa Clara Residents:  Do you want info on Measure E?
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:56:44 GMT


     If you would like to get some information about Measure E, 
the cardroom ordiance, send me some mail with your US address, and 
we'll get something to you fairly quickly.
     If you would like to help pass out information, let me know.
     Have a good day.

     Henry III
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: HERSCHENSOHN: Differences with Boxer on Education
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:17:26 GMT
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.

In article <92281.33695.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>The ACLU and others don't want to let students use classrooms for Bible studies
>during lunch hour, but they will let any other groups (including non-Christian
>religious activities) use them.  

Can you give some kind of a reference for this statement ?  When I was
in high school (I graduated in '77 from a public high school in Orange
County, Ca.) we were given a lecture by a representative from the
Campus Crusade for Christ.  This lecture was held DURING class time
in a class MANDATORY for graduation.  Attendance was compulsory.  I
personally was offended by this.  Further, no such lecture was given
by representatives of any other religions.  I have a hard time believing
that Christians are discriminated against in our public schools.

Guido

P.S.  The Campus Crusade for Christ regularly held meetings in our
school, and we also had a bible study group which met once a week
during lunch hour.
From: ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Rats, I guess I'm a Nazi
Date: 8 Oct 92 23:04:58 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA

In article <1992Oct5.161238.18218@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.053310.12448@pb2esac.uucp> jlbrand@pb2esac.uucp (Jack Brand) writes:
>    >Mr. Ronzone writes:
>    >>So then, you think schools should exist that teach ideas that
>    >>parents DON'T want taught to their kids???
>    >>
>    >To a certain extent, absolutely. If parents believe the Earth
>    >is flat I believe it is immoral to teach their children same.
>    >I am not saying that parents should not have avenues of
>    >influence over a good deal of the content and approach a
>    >school may take. And -- ooops, I am straying from keeping
>    >this discussion in terms of black and white absolutes, and I
>    >know you are not fond of that.
>
>Why, no. You just stated an absolute -- teaching children the world is
>flat is immoral you just wrote.


Teaching children that the world is flat is immoral only if we all
accept the following two premises:

   1.  The world is not flat.
   2.  It is wrong to teach known falsehoods as truth.  

At a time when the world was thought to be flat, it was hardly
immoral to teach that.  Further, it is common that cultures
teach known falsehoods as truth.  Let's see-- we
have Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, for starters.  

So, even if we all agree that it is wrong to teach children that
the earth is flat, this is hardly an absolute.  It all
depends on our values and our concept of truth, doesnt it...

Truth may be out there in some objective form, as I believe, but our conception
of it is constantly evolving, as we learn and unlearn more and more from 
science and personal experience.  And our moral values are even more subject to
change than our concept of physical reality.  

Ethical claims are always relative to something.  
Is this an absolutist claim?  Absolutely, relatively speaking.  (8-)


--Al Date
Xref: sparky ba.politics:6015 ca.politics:8601
From: rburns@key.COM (Randy Burns)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: School vouchers
Date: 8 Oct 92 23:00:30 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Advanced Systems, Fremont CA

In article <26652@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>   I'm not even sure you believe that children
> need to get an education, what with all the throw-away unsupported
> nostalgia for bygone low-literacy pioneer educational systems.
Well, from an economic perspective, the American educational system
with its emphasis on 
1) fairly even educational opportunities through high school
2) extremely high rates of college attendence
as been a failure.

Both Germany and Japan have _much_ lower rates of college graduation
(and higher rates of study of hard sciences and engineering) than does
the US(they only have 6-15% college grads in their current young
population)-they are also whipping the US economically. 

The educational establishment has conned the American public-they have
shown themselves to be unworthy of our continued financial support and
unable to deliver either 
a population that can work well together
a population that can  compete in the world marketplace.

Now the question I have for Mr. Helm: have you ever looked at the pioneer
education system? Have you ever ready a McGuffy reader? You might be 
surprised by the reading level expected by folks that went through this
program. Have you ever looked at the US Dept of education statistics on
where the folks in America most likely to make it in the world of engineering
and science come from? It turns out they are most likely to come from
small schools and colleges-not the beomouths pushed by the educational
priesthoods.

Now, as I said in an earlier post, I do think that increased funding of
education might be worthwhile:IF IT WERE DONE IN A MANNER WHERE PAYMENT IS 
ASSOCIATED WITH SOME WELL DEFINED RESULT and not the aribitrary political
conditions placed upon payment by the bureacracy. I don't care whether
kids have teachers that went to departments of edcuation. I don't care whether
kids go to conventional schoolsrooms or go to some teachers home in small
groups. I care about what they do. So far, all I hear from the education
feudalist is trust me, we can take care of your kids for you. 

I'm sorry, but I no longer trust them.

 
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics,misc.,soc.women
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 3 of 4
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:03:23 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1ba95pINNrsv@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU writes:
> In article <1992Oct11.181310.23396@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
# #For example, I just read my third book on the history of the development
# #of the calculus.
# #
# #I didn't read about any non-dead, non-white, non-male contributions.
# #
# Perhaps you should read a book not produced by the bias of a possibly
# white author centered in a white culture.

Wow!  You mean Leibniz and Newton didn't invent the calculus?  Can
you give us some sources to look up for the Third World origins of
the calculus?

# #phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.