From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Defending the Faith through Fear (was Inerrancy)
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:31:01 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

In article <Sep.1.22.50.25.1992.23561@athos.rutgers.edu> julian@sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock) writes:
>
>Is it possible for any person to have "an absolute grasp" on any truth?
>All of our knowledge, in whatever sphere( science, art, religion) is
>necessarily relative. It passes through other people to get to us
>(except for mystical experiences, which I do not think are a good
>base for faith, and certainly not a sufficient one). Our grasp
>on God's truth, I think, comes through our faith. This means believing
>even if we cannot reason our way to it.        

To the degree that a believer can grasp Scripture, a believer can understand 
the truths revealed in it.  Is our understanding and knowledge finite?  Yes.  
Does this mean God's Word is finite or errant?  No.  Finite, however, is a 
statement about our being a creation, but does not indicate that all knowledge
is "relative" or that God outside of time could or would not reveal true, 
infinite truths to those of us in time.

I agree that faith does not require full understanding of all things.
If that were true, we would all perish.  But this does not lead to the
conclusion that we believe in "irrational" things.  That we are merely
taking a [Kierkegardian] LEAP of faith.  Faith in what?  "Faith in faith,
of course!"

>Truth about God does not start with propositional facts. God is not
>an object that can be experimented upon. Any statement about God
>is either someone's verbalisation of a personal (supernatural?)
>mystical experience or it is revealed by God. But if it has to be revealed
>it cannot be a "fact" as we usually use the word (ie, an observable
>phenomenon in nature). Whatever we assert about God has the status
>of assertions held by faith, not (necessarily) observable physical
>acts.

Sure it does.  Truth about God is truth in a Person - but without revealed
truth we know zero about Him.  God is not in our lab, 'tis true.  We do
not understand the Almighty by *our* empiracal tests.  

But God tells us about Himself through His word.  Think of Genesis 1.  
God begins His revelation (I admit to not traversing into a chronography
of Scriptures via the prophet Moses and the Pentateuch) with a completely
polemic stateement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the 
earth."  He goes on to explain how and what was created.  No apologetic.
No defense of Who he was or was not.  No apologies for what men may have 
wanted to ask.  Only revealed facts about what He did - facts that tell us 
a lot about Who He in fact is.

Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because 
anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those 
who earnestly seek him."  

And from where do we learn about God in order to know what (or Who) to believe 
- from the objective written Word shown to us by the convicting work of the 
Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11).

>Take, for example, the statement "Christ is the Word". This has no
>literal earthly meaning, rather it [...]
>But these are not demonstrable propositions.

Sure it is.  Christ is the Word.  As close to what we will see of God this
side of eternity.  He is the ultimate revelation:  Col 2:9, "For in Christ,
all the fullness of the Deity lives in human form."  I think the fact that
Christ is the ultimate revelation of Who God is has tremendous 'earthly
meaning' and, in fact, is the basis by which we need to know and "imitate"
him.  In Ephesians 5:1, we are instructed to "Be imitators of God."  Of who?
Of God and Christ revealed in Scripture.  The following verses go on to tell
us where to imitate God - in the church, at home, at work etc.  Not an ethereal
command, but practical (and possible) admonition.

>Finally, I believe it is faith in God (as a person, friend, saviour) that is 
>essential to salvation, not faith in some "indisputable facts".

I agree.  Salvation is faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.  But
which Jesus?  What work?  James reminds us that the demons believe in God 
AND TREMBLE, but this will not secure their eternity with God. Faith is
personal and is in a Person.  However, that Person and what He did is 
accurately revealed in the Word.  If we will be judged on the basis of 
what is known from that Word, does it seem reasonable that God could and
would protect a perfect revelation?  If not, it tells us a lot about what
kind of God He is.
  
>I don't know if the following is valid but anyway: suppose God does not
>exist but we have exactly the same Bible transmitted through the centuries.
>Then it would be possible for a person to believe in the "facts"
>written in this "inerrant and infallible" book but they still would
>not have salvation. Whatever we assert about the Bible and inerrancy
>is just that: human assertions. The work of God consists in redeeming souls
>not persuading intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. Otherwise
>faith would be proportional to intelligence.

It is true that 'knowing' certain facts is not enough.  How I respond to 
those facts do count.  It is why James says that faith and works are so 
closely alligned.  If I really believe something, I will change my behavior. 

At issue here is not a call to a dry adherence to a list of facts.  It is
a dynamic, life-changing belief in the Person and work of Christ.  But,
if we start with a broken revelation, then all knowledge about Jesus is
subjective and open for error.  Hardly the basis for the inevitable
judgement to come.

Regards,

John