HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: SDENARO@vm.poly.edu
Subject: LOGO has saved the day :>
Organization: Polytechnic University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 13:20:32 EST

I installed the DOS logo from CHER.MIT.EDU on the PC of a 11 year
old kid from brooklyn. The kid is very smart, But is very hard to
deal with. He loves to rip things apart. He is a c and d student.
Very short attiotion span. I used to be very much like him.
 
After playing with LOGO for ten minutes to show him what to do,
I left. I figured LOGO and "Flight" are better than "Kill-Fest II".
 
His mother has since told me that he spends 2 or 3 hours a day writing
programs, His mother bought a book on logo. He is looking forward to the
start o school so he can show his teachers what he can do.
 
You should see the stuff he wrote.
 
"repeat 36 [repeat 72 [fd 5;rt 5];fd 3;rt 10]"
 
That was the second day with the computer and logo. (makes a nice
donut picture). He now want to be a designer of "SpaceShips and
Race cars" on a computer of course.
 
I will start him on Pascal in a year or two.
 
The thing about the computer that he is drawn to is that it will
to listen to him for as long as he is willing to listen to him.
 
I do not think logo is to old. I demand more money be put into
languages for kids. It may turn them on to the use of computers,
not just for programing, but to there use in other fields.
 
--
SAL DENARO      "Live Fast, Die Young, Hack 'C'"
sdenaro@polyvm.poly.edu  sdenaro@polyvm.bitnet
From: cbaray@euclid.ucsd.edu (Cristobal Baray)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
Subject: Lego logo...
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:23:05 GMT
Distribution: usa


I just found this newsgroup and was wondering if you all could e-mail or
post some more info on Legos and logo...I saw someone mention something
about them and the mac and would like more information about the lego
interfaces (with any computer...and if possible, stand-alone versions?)

thank you much.

cristobal baray
cbaray@ucsd.edu
From: ph@physiology.oxford.ac.uk (Patrick Haggard)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: LogoMation - a logo-like language
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:25:20 GMT
Distribution: comp.lang.logo
Organization: Physiology Department, Oxford University, Oxford, UK.

In article <14779@ksr.com> chuck@ksr.com (Chuck Shavit) writes:

>I am looking for beta testers for a logo-like language and environment that
>I have implemented on the Mac.  The environment is known as LogoMation, but
>I will probably change the name because it really is not logo.
>
	Can you say what kind of applications you envisage for this
environment?  Presumably that is related to what sort of beta-testers
you want to use.
Patrick
From: furry@hitl.washington.edu (Jeff James)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
Subject: Re: LOGO has saved the day :>
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:53:01 GMT
	<168489C6A.SDENARO@vm.poly.edu>
	<BRENT.92Aug19161317@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com>
Reply-To: furry@hitl.washington.edu
Organization: Human Interface Technology Laboratory

>Nonsense.  Lisp is easy to learn.  A person can learn a small and
>useful subset of most Lisp dialects (e.g., Scheme) in an hour or two.

I agree.  While I don't exactly have a graphics library in my version of
xlisp, if I did I imagine writing a LOGO interpreter in Lisp would be
easier than in any other language.  Conceptually, these two have *very*
much in common and are a better foundation for programming expertise than
anything else out there.  Future languages (visual and otherwise) will bear
more resemblance to Lisp and LOGO than to any other existing computer
language.

Jeff James
Human Interface Technology Lab
My words, my ideas
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
From: gam@beta.lanl.gov (Gim Mark)
Subject: Re: Object Logo (was Re: Logo is based on 1960s...)
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:00:36 GMT

>Could you describe how Object Logo extends the language?  I'm curious just
>how it integrates object-oriented programming into Logo.  Does it come up
>with some sort of class abstraction, or does it deal directly with the
>objects themselves?

Here's an example of the use of objects from Object Logo's manual :

? make "scalingTurtle kindof turtle
? ask :scalingTurtle [to forward :steps]
> usual.forward :steps * :scale
> end
FORWARD defined.
? ask :scalingTurtle [to exist]
> usual.exist
> have "scale
> make "scale 1.0
> end
EXIST defined.
? make "fish oneof :scalingTurtle
? ask :fish [make "scale 2.0]

This demonstrates the creation of a subclass (scalingTurtle) from the
base class turtle.  The subclass inherits from its base class, and is
modified by the redefinitions of 'forward' and 'exist'.  At the end,
:fish is an insantiation of scalingTurtle.  It draws lines twice as
long as ordinary turtles in response to the same instructions.

Graham Mark
Los Alamos National Laboratory
(505)667-8147



Xref: sparky comp.lang.logo:165 comp.sys.mac.misc:15186
From: chuck@ksr.com (Chuck Shavit)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: LogoMation - a logo-like language
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:43:43 EDT
Distribution: comp.lang.logo
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp.

In article <4325@inca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> ph@physiology.oxford.ac.uk (Patrick Haggard) writes:
>In article <14779@ksr.com> chuck@ksr.com (Chuck Shavit) writes:
>
>>I am looking for beta testers for a logo-like language and environment that
>>I have implemented on the Mac.  The environment is known as LogoMation, but
>>I will probably change the name because it really is not logo.
>>
>	Can you say what kind of applications you envisage for this
>environment?  Presumably that is related to what sort of beta-testers
>you want to use.
>Patrick

LogoMation is to be used by the same people that use Logo, namely young
people doing their first steps in programming.  The reason that people may
prefer LogoMation to Logo, as I hope they will, are

  *  LogoMation has IMHO a better syntax (if you love Lisp, you will like
     Logo and will not like LogoMation.  And vice versa).

  *  LogoMation has built-in animation and sounds.  For example, if you
     have a piece of code that draws a picture, then one additional
     LogoMation line will make it a picture, and another LogoMation command
     will make the "turtle" movement commands move the picture in various
     modes and speeds.  If you believe in teaching kids through play, then
     LogoMation is the right tool.

  *  LogoMation was designed from ground up as a friendly Mac application
     (and there is no reason it cannot be made Windows friendly).  Its
     editor knows about the language and help you beautify and indent, its
     Paste function can paste both texts and pictures from other
     applications (so that you can animate your KidPix pictures, for
     example), it is integrated with the Mac's Color Chooser, Sound
     Manager, etc.

LogoMation can also be used for preparing animated presentations, e.g. in
science courses, marketing and the like.  However, there are many tools in
the market that support animated presentations, and it is not clear to me
that LogoMation has a significant edge unless the user likes programming.

Chuck Shavit
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
From: allyn@milton.u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks)
Subject: Re: Logo for the Mac
Summary: Computer Express has lots o' Logos
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 19:32:24 GMT

mcw@cs.rice.edu (Michael Wirth) writes:
>I've had version 2.51r2 since last year.  It seems to run OK under System 7,
>but only in 24-bit mode.  I've received an upgrade notice for Version 2.6,
>dated May '92, which adds support for the Pearl Controller ($195 interface to
>LEGO interface boxes), control structures for background task processing, and,
>I presume, 32-bit mode.  Unfortunately, the list price is now $195 ($300,
>bundled with a Pearl Controller).

>Does anyone know of mail order sources for Paradigm products (i.e., at reduced
>prices, and overnight) vs. direct order from Paradigm?

I got mine from Computer Express (Sudbury MA, 800-228-7449) a month ago, and I
lucked out - they still had the 2.5x version in stock, so I got it for 30% *
$149 = $105 + shipping.  The upgrade will be free since I bought it after the
cut-off date.  I don't know if they carry the other Paradigm things; my catalog
is pre-version 2.6, but they have MIDI interfaces and some other preipherals,
so they might carry the controllers. 

Computer Express seems to be a poorly known resource.  Their prices aren't
always as good as MacConnection and the other biggies, and they don't ship
overnight, but they carry a lot of the more obscure things such as Lost
Treasures of Infocom, at least 7 different Logos, and scads of educational
software.  Prices are about 30% off list for everything.  Oh yes, they carry
pc, amiga and apple II stuff as well as mac.  Standard disclaimer: I'm only a
happy customer.

Allyn Weaks
allyn@milton.u.washington.edu
From: chuck@ksr.com (Chuck Shavit)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: LogoMation - a logo-like language
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:10:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: ksr.14779
Distribution: comp.lang.logo
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp.



Dear netters,

I am looking for beta testers for a logo-like language and environment that
I have implemented on the Mac.  The environment is known as LogoMation, but
I will probably change the name because it really is not logo.

LogoMation 1.0 has standard flow-control constructs like do loops, if-else,
functions etc., plus the following features:

  * Turtle graphics, e.g. Forward and Left commands.
  * Full 24-bit color graphics.
  * Variable width lines.
  * 38 different Fill patterns.
  * Full Mac text support, including fonts, size and style.
  * Easy definition of named pictures, by preceding a group of LogoMation
    1.0 statements with the Picture command.  Pictures can also be imported
    from any other graphics tool.
  * Animation can be easily programmed by moving pictures at varying speeds
    and along straight and curved paths below or above the background.
  * Sounds (pre-recorder or recorded by LogoMation) can be used during
    animation, in either sync or async mode.
  * A library of built-in functions for math, string manipulation, and
    I/O.
  * WYSIWYG indentation (i.e. compound statements are defined through
    indentation).
  * Language-oriented text editor with automatic indentation and with
    automatic completion of abbreviated commands.
  * Automatic, declaration free data structures: numbers, strings,
    sequential arrays and associative arrays.  Automatic conversion of
    strings to numbers and back.

LogoMation requires sys 7, although if one does not need sound then 6.0.7
will be good enough.  It requires 1M ram.  It had been tested on 68020 and
68030 based machines.  FPU is a plus, although not a requirement.  The
deliverable BinHex is about 0.5M.

I am not sure how many people will volunteer; I reserve the right to limit
the number of beta testers so that I can pay enough attention to what each
is saying.  I will also need a non-disclosure statement, but let's worry
about that later.

If you want to volunteer, please email me and I will send you some more
information.  I will answer all emails within a week.



Thanks,

Chuck Shavit
chuck@ksr.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,misc.kids
From: rslade@cue.bc.ca (Rob Slade)
Subject: Re: Getting a 10 year old started in programming
Organization: Computer Using Educators of B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 17:59:11 GMT

Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,misc.kids
Subject: Re: Getting a 10 year old started in programming
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Computer Using Educators of B.C., Canada
Keywords: 

Give her the basic graphics commands: forward, back, right, left and clean.

When she asks (in a week or two), tell her about repeat.

When she asks, tell her about to.  (You'll likely have to cover ed and
the basics of the Jove editor at that time.)

Answer questions: when you run out of answers show her the section of the
manual that lists the primitives.

Don't worry about directing.

This may sound flip, but it is a considered opinion based upon observation
and (in some ways sad) experience.  I was able to participate in an
experiment with Logo and grade three children at one time.  Each "teacher"
had at least one eight year old student, and could direct the study as
desired.  From reading "Mindstorms", it was obvious that Seymour considered
that Logo could cure cancer, and I didn't quite go that far.  I was, however,
willing to put it to the test.  Totally hands off, and let the child explore.
By the second week, one of the other "teachers" had obtained a set of Logo
worksheets.  By the third week, all the other "teachers" had cracked:
everyone was using the worksheets.  I was climbing the walls: my little
bimbo was doing nothing but filling the screen with masses of lines.  But
I was determined: stick to the concept, and if Logo (and Seymour) fell flat
on its face, so be it.  No skin off my nose.  (But my student was so
*stupid*!)

Sometime in the third week, in the space of two hours, my "stupid little 
airhead" surged ahead of the entire class.  By the fourth week, she was
correcting and improving the procedures of the rest of the class.  By the
end of eight weeks she had thoroughly mastered procedures and modular
programming, was dealing with recursion and list processing.  She had
even discovered, on her own, the "Total Turtle Trip Theorem", which I
had frankly considered to be impossible.  (I was very careful about *not*
giving her any info on it.  She didn't know anything about "degrees", but
she did discover that a closed figure required a total of 360 in "turns".
Blew me away, the day she did a perfect pentagon ... on her very first 
attempt.)

Let her explore.  Let her use Logo as long as she wants.  It's got everything
she'll need, conceptually.  The language she might use in eight years
may not be invented yet.  Don't sweat it.
 
==============
Vancouver      ROBERTS@decus.ca         | "A ship in a harbour
Institute for  Robert_Slade@sfu.ca      |  is safe, but that is
Research into  rslade@cue.bc.ca         |  not what ships are
User           p1@CyberStore.ca         |  built for."
Security       Canada V7K 2G6           |           John Parks
From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
Subject: Re: Object Logo (was Re: Logo is based on 1960s...)
Date: 17 Aug 1992 05:29:15 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu

A quick summary of the object mechanism in Object Logo:

There is a hierarchy of classes.  (We'll see later that the class/instance
distinction is not enforced, but for now let's think of it that way.)  To
create a new class, you say KINDOF <oldclass>, e.g.,

	MAKE "BACKWARDS.TURTLE KINDOF TURTLE

To make a particular turtle (an instance) you say

	MAKE "TORTUGA ONEOF TURTLE

or

	MAKE "TERRAPIN ONEOF :BACKWARDS.TURTLE

[Why the colon or not?  TURTLE is a primitive *procedure* that outputs
a class; BACKWARDS.TURTLE is a *variable* whose value is a class.  If
you don't like it you can say

	TO BACKWARDS.TURTLE
	OUTPUT :BACKWARDS.TURTLE
	END

but there's nothing new about that.]

Every instruction is carried out by some object.  (There is an object
called Logo at the root of the tree that's the default object if you
don't specify one.)  To direct an instruction to an object you say

	ASK :TORTUGA [FD 100]

More complicated instructions may involve more than one object:

	ASK :TORTUGA [SETHEADING TOWARDS ASK :TERRAPIN [POSITION]]

You can specialize methods by using TO in a class:

	? ASK :BACKWARDS.TURTLE [TO FORWARD :DIST]
	> USUAL.FORWARD (- :DIST)
	> END

That's basically it, except for the details:

1.  There is no real difference between a class and an instance; both are
just objects.  The difference between KINDOF and ONEOF is that the latter,
after creating the new object, does ASK <new-object> [EXIST]
The EXIST method generally creates instance variables, but it can do
anything you want.  So an instance is just a subclass with its own
instance variables.

2.  There's multiple inheritance.

3.  There are a number of predefined classes, not just turtles but
windows, text windows, graphics windows, menu bars, and so on.  But
the classes you create don't have to be about physical screen or
system-like things; you can specialize LOGO and get a bare-bones class.
From: ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
Subject: Re: LOGO has saved the day :>
Date: 18 Aug 92 10:38:01 GMT
Followup-To: comp.lang.logo
Organization: Bugs-R-Us


In article <16846BBA1.SDENARO@vm.poly.edu> SDENARO@vm.poly.edu writes:

#  I installed the DOS logo from CHER.MIT.EDU on the PC of a 11 year old
#  kid from Brooklyn.  [...] I will start him on Pascal in a year or two. 

Erm, why?

-- Ken Johnson


-- 
////  Advice to dieters:          ////  Ken Johnson, A I Applications Institute
////    Never eat more than       ////       80 South Bridge, EDINBURGH EH1 1HN
////    you can carry.            ////                 E-mail ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk
////               -- Miss Piggy  ////     phone 031-650 2756  fax 031-650 6513
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,misc.kids
From: mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney)
Subject: Re: Getting a 10 year old started in programming
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:42:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.175911.19270@softwords.bc.ca> rslade@cue.bc.ca (Rob Slade) writes:
>Sometime in the third week, in the space of two hours, my "stupid little 
>airhead" surged ahead of the entire class.  By the fourth week, she was
>correcting and improving the procedures of the rest of the class.  By the
>end of eight weeks she had thoroughly mastered procedures and modular
>programming, was dealing with recursion and list processing.  She had
>even discovered, on her own, the "Total Turtle Trip Theorem", which I
>had frankly considered to be impossible.  (I was very careful about *not*
>giving her any info on it.  She didn't know anything about "degrees", but
>she did discover that a closed figure required a total of 360 in "turns".
>Blew me away, the day she did a perfect pentagon ... on her very first 
>attempt.)

Okay, I'll bite.  What's the "Total Turtle Trip Theorem?"

	Darrin
-- 

mdchaney@iubacs mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu mdchaney@rose.ucs.indiana.edu

"It's a marvel of vegetable containment..."
From: SDENARO@vm.poly.edu
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
Subject: Re: LOGO has saved the day :>
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:07:20 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University

In article <7230@skye.ed.ac.uk>
ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson) writes:
 
>In article <16846BBA1.SDENARO@vm.poly.edu> SDENARO@vm.poly.edu writes:
>
>#  I installed the DOS logo from CHER.MIT.EDU on the PC of a 11 year old
>#  kid from Brooklyn.  [...] I will start him on Pascal in a year or two.
>
>Erm, why?
>
The only options I have seen are Pascal and BASIC. BASIC is a language that
does a great diservice to the student. I have recived mail from a few people
saying that I should teach him LISP, Scheme, ms Visual BASIC and Oberon.
 
I have never heard of scheme or Oberon. I don't like LISP or BASIC. And, lest
we forget, this is for an 11 year old. LISP is not easy. I have yet to meet
an 11 year old AI researcher.
 
I think Pascal is a nice language. It is easy to learn; and, if nothing else,
It show that everyone must put up with stupid rules in order to get a job
done.
 
Why is everyone Pascal bashing?
 
--
SAL DENARO      "Live Fast, Die Young, Hack 'C'"
sdenaro@polyvm.poly.edu    sdenaro@polyvm.bitnet
'SDENARO@vm.poly.edu Ken Johnson          8/19/92*LOGO has saved the day :>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo
From: cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Ofer Inbar)
Subject: Re: LOGO has saved the day : >
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 22:56:56 GMT

SDENARO@vm.poly.edu writes:
>In article <7230@skye.ed.ac.uk>
>ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson) writes:
>>In article <16846BBA1.SDENARO@vm.poly.edu> SDENARO@vm.poly.edu writes:
>>
>>#  I installed the DOS logo from CHER.MIT.EDU on the PC of a 11 year old
>>#  kid from Brooklyn.  [...] I will start him on Pascal in a year or two.
>>
>>Erm, why?
>>
>The only options I have seen are Pascal and BASIC. BASIC is a language that
>does a great diservice to the student. I have recived mail from a few people
>saying that I should teach him LISP, Scheme, ms Visual BASIC and Oberon.
> 
>I have never heard of scheme or Oberon. I don't like LISP or BASIC. And, lest
>we forget, this is for an 11 year old. LISP is not easy. I have yet to meet
>an 11 year old AI researcher.

Scheme is a dialect of LISP that is elegant and very suitable for
education.  LISP may not be easy, but neither is Logo, if you look at
things that way.  Computer programming is not "easy".  But if it is
fun, a kid will learn.  LISP is certainly easier than Pascal, and it's
also more fun, IMHO.

There is no ideal set order to learning languages, of course.  I was
introduced to Logo in 5th grade, but that was after I had already
learned 6502 aseembly language, and a little BASIC.  6502 assembly was
the first language I did much real programming in, and though it may
be considered "hard" on an objective level, it was fun, so I learned.
After that, I worked in both Logo and AppleSoft BASIC concurrently,
and I think each of them was equally valuable to me.

>I think Pascal is a nice language. It is easy to learn; and, if nothing else,
>It show that everyone must put up with stupid rules in order to get a job
>done.

These days, I program in QuickBASIC, perl, C, Scheme, and Intel
assembly, in about that order.  I don't have Logo anymore, but I do
have access to Pascal and try to avoid it as much as possible.  You
don't like BASIC, I don't like Pascal; each person's tastes are
different.

My advice, let the kid stick with Logo as long as he's progressing
with it.  When he sees another language he wants to learn, he will.
If you want to specifically introduce him to other languages, Scheme
and BASIC are the most 'fun' and probably the best choices, but one
can never tell in advance what will be best for him.

  --  Cos (Ofer Inbar)  --  cos@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
  --  WBRS (BRiS)  --  WBRS@binah.cc.brandeis.edu  WBRS@brandeis.bitnet
  "Good literature is about Love and War."
  "Junk fiction is about Sex and Violence."
Xref: sparky comp.lang.logo:172 comp.sys.mac.misc:15240
From: gwlester@cpu.com (Gerald W. Lester)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo,comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: LogoMation - a logo-like language
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:56:34 GMT
Reply-To: gwlester@cpu.com
Distribution: comp.lang.logo
Organization: Computerized Processes Unlimited, Metairie, LA, (504)-889-2784

In article <14995@ksr.com>, chuck@ksr.com (Chuck Shavit) writes:
>
>  *  LogoMation was designed from ground up as a friendly Mac application
>     (and there is no reason it cannot be made Windows friendly).  Its
>     editor knows about the language and help you beautify and indent, its
>     Paste function can paste both texts and pictures from other
>     applications (so that you can animate your KidPix pictures, for
>     example), it is integrated with the Mac's Color Chooser, Sound
>     Manager, etc.
>
Chuck,

	I have a IIgs, a C compiler and experience porting things to the IIgs. 
Would you be interested/allow me to port LogoMotion to the IIgs?  Please reply,
(but don't expect a fast reply back, I'm going on vacation for a week).

Thanks,
==========================================================================
* Gerald W. Lester                        !   Voice:  (504)-889-2784     *
* Computerized Processes Unlimited        !   FAX:    (504)-889-2799     *
* 4200 S. I-10 Service Road, Suite #205   !   E-Mail: gwl@cpu.com        *
* Metairie, LA  70001                     !                              *
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.lang.logo