HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: In defense of Phantom Regiment
From: <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Monday, 21 Dec 1992 11:33:39 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

In article <1gt9nnINNgmd@early-bird.think.com>, fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu
(Michael Fath) says:
>
>Well, it seems that the Phantom Regiment has taken over the top stop on
>the Net as the "most bashed" drumcorps.  I too have some things that I wish
>Phantom would change.  If half the posts I've seen are true, they seem to
>need a serious attitude adjustment.  On another front, I love classical
>music and I would love the see Phantom branch out and explore other exciting
>classical works that would be great for drumcorps.
>
>Examples I've heard mentioned include:
>Rite of Spring - someone posted that they wouldn't like to hear that -- I
>        disagree!  I think it would be an exciting and avant garde part of
>        a show devoted to Stravinsky.  Include some of his Symphony #3
>        "Classical", Petrouchka, and Firebird and you have a ton of excellent
>        material to choose from.
>Shostakovich - Symphony No. 4 or 5 or 10  - all great, none has been done
>        (ever to my knowledge)
>they have yet to do justice to Mahler or R. Strauss or Beethoven.  All
>these composers have written wonderful music that could make great drumcorps.
>I would love to see Phantom (or other corps as well) try their hand at these.

Some other candidates:

 Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky Cantata
            War and Peace
 Nielsen: Symphonies 4 and/or 5
 Verdi: Requiem

Mike Hughes
Xref: sparky rec.arts.marching.drumcorps:232 rec.arts.marching.misc:486
From: frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank - Hardware Hacker - Borger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,rec.arts.marching.misc
Subject: Re: Judge kills
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:04:00 GMT
Reply-To: frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Organization: Joint Center for Radiation Therapy
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BOB.92Dec28183831@volitans.MorningStar.Com>, bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) writes...
> ...
>I met my wife during rehearsals for the 1982 season (yes, my fifth, if
>you're counting) 

	Fifth what, wife or season?	;-)

   Frank R. Borger - Physicist    __       Internet:  Frank@rover.uchicago.edu
Michael Reese - Univ. of Chicago |___      Phone : 312-791-8075 fax : 567-7455
  Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   Your picture tube is ok, but your
                                   | \|_)  cabinet has Dutch elm disease. -
    "Birthplace of Softball"          |_)  TV repairman to Ziggy
From: niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: All these questions about songs
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:23:56 EDT
Organization: NMB productions
Reply-To: chinchilla!niel@cars.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <1992Dec22.154908.19221@rchland.ibm.com> (rec.arts.marching.drumcorps), tmaas@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Anthony Maas) writes:
>|>  Most of us are
>|> really only aware of the top 12 DCI corps anyway
>
>An appreciative nod from those of us who poured out the blood, sweat, and 
>tears in Division II and III corps...
>
>Tony Maas
>Blue Stars 90-91

Not to demean the efforts or talents of those who didn't get to the
night show... but I thought that would be LOTS of work.  

Niel

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Niel M. Bornstein                              chinchilla!niel@cars.com |
|  _   _   _   ___                           ...csn!sable!chinchilla!niel |
| | | | | | | | __)                          1352 North Morningside Drive |
| | | | | | | | (_                                Atlanta, Georgia  30306 |
| | |_| |_| |_| __)  productions          (404) 872-6883   (404) 551-8075 |
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,alt.drumcorps
From: minich@a.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich)
Subject: Survey results on Roman Images
Followup-To: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 08:49:27 GMT

Well, the results are in. Executive summary:

Liked Roman Images: 8
Didn't            : 2
Undecided         : 1 (Me!)

Personally, I don't think Roman Images is a show I want to listen to all
that often. It just doesn't latch on to me. However, I do admire the
musicianship demonstrated by Star. Yet, I also admire the Blue Devils
and their music does grab me. Perhaps I'm biased in using CDs more than
video.

Many responders mentioned the high quality technical aspects of the show
and the judges apparently agree. Not having seen the finals in person, I
can't really judge the M&M aspects of others' shows with only videotape
to examine.

And now <drum roll> ... the break down.

Pro  Experienced by  Like     Like
Con  CD Live Video   20thCent Star Comments
-------------------------------------------
-    ?               x
-    x  x    x       x        x
+       x            x        x     [1]
+       x            x        x
+       x    x       x
+    x  x    x       x        x     [2]
+       x                     x
+    x  x    x       x        x
+       x            x        x     [3]
+    x  x    x       x        x
0    x       x       x        x
-------------------------------
     5  9    6      10        9



Choice comments selected by a committee of one:

[1]
If corps don't experiment with new types of music, then the whole
activity will not be stretched to new horizons.  Corps like the
Star of Indiana enable the fans to make their own opinions on
certain types of music, they just don't cater to the popular
music fans.

[2]
Difficult music, difficult drill, incredible expression, and technical
expertise had a lot to do with why I enjoyed this show so much.

[3]
I feel that the caliber of this show, both visually and musically,
has never been matched and probably won't for a while.

Original survey questions follow: 
1. How did you experience the show?          (Live, Video, CD, Cassette)
2. Do you generally like 20th century music? (Y, N)
3. Do you generally like Star of Indiana?    (Y, N)
4. Anything else you want to add. (Please keep it concise.)
-- 
Robert Minich
minich@a.cs.okstate.edu   | "Maybe awake is what's left at the end
Oklahoma State University |  of dreaming"
Xref: sparky rec.arts.marching.drumcorps:211 alt.drumcorps:2709
From: niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Jay Kennedy and SCV
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:06:07 EDT
Organization: Heavy Objects R Us
Reply-To: chinchilla!niel@cars.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <1992Dec17.192526.13656@beaver.cs.washington.edu> (rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,alt.drumcorps), dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn) writes:
>
>
>I read in DCI Today that Jay Kennedy will be a brass writer and/or
>instructor for SCV next year.
>
>Does anyone know whether he will still have the role of DCI Administrator
>of Judges?  If not, who will replace him?


I read in Drum Corps World that he had resigned his role with DCI.
They mentioned a new name in the position, but I don't recall who
it was.

Niel

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Niel M. Bornstein                              chinchilla!niel@cars.com |
| 1352 North Morningside Drive               ...csn!sable!chinchilla!niel |
| Atlanta, Georgia  30306                 (404) 872-6883   (404) 551-8075 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions? I don't need no stinkin' opinions!                            |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: matthews@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Thomas W. Matthews)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: more Judging (from Prodigy)
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:21:04 GMT
Organization: Division of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, UC Davis

I just read the postings on judging from Prodigy (thanks, Michael!).

I had always thought that the judges considered only execution (with
some consideration for level of difficulty attempted) and attempted not
to pass judgement on a corps' decision of WHAT to execute.  I am
therefore not at all displeased when my favorite corps doesn't win;
the scores should be simply a measure of precision.

I think that precision of marching, moving, and playing is a vital part
of the appeal of drumcorps.  The judging process ought to help a corps
refine their perfromance as the season progresses.  I think that judging
brings out the best efforts of individuals and corps as a whole.  

However, in alt.drumcorps and r.a.m.d. I've read that critiques are meetings 
in which corps staff try to convince judges that their show is better, that
judges somehow rate a corps for "innovation" and factor it into their score,
and that show writers try to pick "leading edge" material for its scoring advantage.
I recognize that things I infer from various articles are not necessarily
true, but they're still unsettling to read.  BTW, I do recognize that
show writers have to consider the level of difficulty of material and the 
ability of their corps to execute it.

What is current judging policy?  How has it evolved?  Wasn't their once
a category called "M and M" (for marching and movement, I presume) and
was it subsumed by general effect?  Does a corps really get a score
enhancement by being innovative (what caption is that in)?  

We ought to consider a judging policy that has as its goal an objective
rating of precision and performance (with consideration for level of
difficulty).  Of course, we cannot achieve this goal completely.
Difficult questions will arise (as they always will) and the judges
will be called upon to make the best decisions they can.  But the
goals towards which they strive should be clear.

Tom Matthews
From: fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: from Prodigy - Judging
Date: 29 Dec 1992 15:14:58 GMT
Organization: Dana-Farber Cancer Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mbcrr.harvard.edu

An interesting thread on judging:

Tom Vererber wrote:

Perhaps the hardest thing the activity is faced with and perhaps one that will
never be perfected is the issue of judging.  Personally, I feel it's a good
thing now (not great, but adequate), but as time goes by it'll be fine tuned 
and tweeked out.  The main problem is trying to judge an activity that has
been described as a combination of both sport and art, with art being the 
issue.  Is it possible or is there a fair way to associate a score with so
many different entities in the activity?  Possible ... sure anything's
possible.  A fair way?   Maybe ... maybe not.  I mean, who was a better
painter, Picasso or Rembrandt?  Who was a better author, Hemingway or Melville?
You may say, "but Tom, there's the sport of it ... the competition ...
America loves a chest-thumping winner and hates a loser and we need to have a
means to determine by numbers who's numero uno!"   Well, as far as sport
goes, who was a better hitter, Aaron or Ruth.  Who had the better corps - 76
Blue Devils or 84 Garfield?  These are totally unfair arguments!

Of course, I'm talking about different eras and perhaps getting on a tangent.
My point is, if we want to compare an "apples and oranges" style of drumc
corps within the same given year, a standardization of compulsory requirements
is going to have to be implemented.  There are many "sporting" activities out 
there that mesh in artistic qualities -- olympic figureskating, ballroom
dancing, cheerleading, concert band compeitions (with required sight reading),
etc.  The compulsory areas don't have to be so rigid that it has to take
away from the creative nature of drum corps.  Just that if we want to maintain
a fairness about drum corps judging perhaps something like this needs to be
implemented.

-- 
MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael Fath		fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu
M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
M     M F       Boston, MA 02115	Merry Christmas Everyone!
From: rlapham@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Richard Lapham)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: more Judging (from Prodigy)
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:33:31 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Michael Fath (fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu) wrote:
: 
: Michael Fath says:
: 
: I like the idea of a show without judging, an interesting experiment.

Speaking of interesting experiments for judging, I tried one back in 88
at the DCM Championships in DeKalb IL.  I sat on the dark side of the
stadium and attempted to measure the audience reactions. The purpose was
to see if it could be factored into the scores.. Armed with a sound meter
(DB meter) I recorded all audience reactions, the Scouts won hands down,
but with the corps blasting the stands and the audience screaming back it
was impossible to get any accuracy.. If a judge was positioned on the back
side watching the audience he could rate the reactions without the measuring
device.. 
By the way, if anyone gives you a free ticket on the back side - punch him out


  Richard.Lapham@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM           
         "All opinions are my own - unless I state otherwise"
From: matthews@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Thomas W. Matthews)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: In defense of Phantom Regiment
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:19:31 GMT
Organization: Division of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, UC Davis

In article <1gt9nnINNgmd@early-bird.think.com>, fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu
(Michael Fath) says:

>music and I would love the see Phantom branch out and explore other exciting
>classical works that would be great for drumcorps.
>Examples I've heard mentioned include:
>Rite of Spring   (text deleted)
>Shostakovich - Symphony No. 4 or 5 or 10  - all great, none has been done
>        (ever to my knowledge)
>they have yet to do justice to Mahler or R. Strauss or Beethoven.

and in article  <92356.113339MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET adds
to the list:

>Some other candidates:
>
> Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky Cantata
>            War and Peace
> Nielsen: Symphonies 4 and/or 5
> Verdi: Requiem

I think Phantom might have "done" Mahler's "Resurection" symphony in '85?
But Michael did say "do justice to".  Anybody remember?

I would submit:

Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliette 
           Lt. Kije (sounds like "key-jay") (I don't have any spelling reference
               (with me, and I hope I've got the right composer for this piece!)

Still with uncertain spelling, I'll go on to recommend:

Sibelius:  Symphony #2, Karelia Suite, Finlandia
           I think material could be selected from these three works and
           combined into one great show.  

Has any corps ever done any Sibelius?  The opening of "Finlandia" sounds
like a great warm-up!

Tom Matthews
From: R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re:  Judge kills
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:37:48 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <78848@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt2619b@prism.gatech.EDU (S. Axel
Medlin) wrote (Re:  Judge kills):
 
 
 
|>My contra had a more than a few scars both from judges and from
|>other corps members who didn't yield to rule of gross tonage.  For
|>the contra player, one gained respect and admiration for crushing
|>judges (or marching instructors who weren't paying attention, for
|>that matter). We would silently dare them to get too close.
|>We were upset when they would not let us paint little stick-figures
|>on the sides, like fighter airplanes do after making a kill.
 
Bloody minded, aren't you?  I was never like that when I was a contra
player.  Of course, I never did get a judge (although I did run into
North Star's drum major once in rehearsal--never saw him or I'd have
warned him--night rehearsal and I was guiding right).
 
|>In an unrelated incident, I broke a flute player's nose during a high school
|>band's scatter drill while I was twirling my sousaphone around behind my 
|>back. The gong sound hung in the air for almost a full minute and blood
|>was pouring out of the poor flautist's nose so fast she left a trail
|>all the way out of the stadium. I was congradulated by my peers for bashing 
|>such an elusive prey.
 
She must have been *real* unpopular!  Did you give her flowers when
she was at the hospital or when she came back?  I would have (but
then again, I consider myself a gentleman--and never miss a chance
to get in good with the fairer sex! ;-).
 
|> Axel
|> Suncoast  - Contra
 
Boy, forget about the BAC.  I know who to stay away from during
Preview of Champions--Suncoast!
 
Vince
From: fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re:  Scoring
Date: 29 Dec 1992 15:48:23 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

This is also from Prodigy.  Not my thoughts, just my typing.

Xref: sparky rec.arts.marching.drumcorps:210 alt.drumcorps:2708
From: niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: SameO Tunes
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 09:49:27 EDT
Organization: Heavy Objects R Us
Reply-To: chinchilla!niel@cars.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <pm860605.27.724448015@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu> (rec.arts.marching.drumcorps,alt.drumcorps), pm860605@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Peter J. McKinney) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.124308.1@d0gs03.fnal.gov> jerger@d0gs03.fnal.gov writes:
>>From: jerger@d0gs03.fnal.gov
>>Subject: Re: SameO Tunes
>>Date: 15 Dec 92 18:43:08 GMT
>>In article <1992Dec15.010337.9406@iscsvax.uni.edu>, dostal2060@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>
>>> [misc. stuff deleted]
>>
>>Another important (to me anyhow) one - 1982 drum solos. Two-Seven and Spirit both 
>>did Blue Rondo a la Turk - I liked 27th's way better.
>>
>>
>>Steve
>
>That's because Two-Seven's battery actually played.... ;-)


Ouch!  Well, it's a fair cop.

Niel

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Niel M. Bornstein                              chinchilla!niel@cars.com |
| 1352 North Morningside Drive               ...csn!sable!chinchilla!niel |
| Atlanta, Georgia  30306                 (404) 872-6883   (404) 551-8075 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions? I don't need no stinkin' opinions!                            |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rdorocke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (rob lawrence dorocke)
Subject: Re: Prodigy Drum Corps
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 04:52:42 GMT

In article <1hknplINNk0b@early-bird.think.com> fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu (Michael Fath) writes:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
>Well,
>
>I got Prodigy for Xmas and immediately checked out the drum corps discussion
>on it.  It is quite good -- high signal to noise ratio and interesting
>discussions going on at the moment, esp. about the role of judging in
>drum corps.
>
>Bill Cook and Don Pescione have posted in the last day, Bill Cook is a very
>active participant.  It been interesting to read his posts.  He is giving
>me a very positive impression of Star.
>
>Are other r.a.m.drumcorps folks connected to Prodigy too?  I saw a post
>by Brad Halls.
>
>Those of us on both ought to cross post some interesting messages to
>stimulate discussion here as well.  I'll start and post a few Prodigy
>notes over the next few days.
>
>
>-- 
>MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael Fath		fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu
>M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
>M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
>M     M F       Boston, MA 02115	Merry Christmas Everyone!



Post the letter you wrote to DCI on it.  I would like to hear what they
have to say.  I don't have prodigy, so if you do post it tell us what the
prodigy subscribers have to say.

Rob Dorocke
(rdorocke@ucs.indiana.edu)
From: 95lnm@williams.edu (Lisa Masterman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Judge kills
Date: 29 Dec 1992 17:25:15 GMT
Organization: Williams College, Williamstown, MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bullfrog.cs.williams.edu

On the thread of interesting marching accidents...

My favorite in high school had to be the day our two lead trumpets 
marched forward out of formation to do a little duet in the middle
of a piece...  They had to pass right by the baton twirlers, who
all had streamers attached to their batons...  Poor Linnie was just
innocently marching by them when a passing streamer not only went
around her neck, but tangled itself on her trumpet as well!!  She
was almost pulled over backwards!  (You should have SEEN the look
on her face as she tried to gracefully extricate herself from
the mess...)

--lisa
williams college mucho macho moocow marching band
From: niel@cars.com (Niel Bornstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: halleujah it's here!!
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:02:16 EDT
Organization: Heavy Objects R Us
Reply-To: chinchilla!niel@cars.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <1992Dec15.232253.25621@vela.acs.oakland.edu> (rec.arts.marching.drumcorps), bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F) writes:
>In article <01050023.l4f5u1@chinchilla.cars.com> chinchilla!niel@cars.com writes:
>>pretty good.  Mike was really good.  For some real history, Tom Float was 
>>the arranger in the early days, before he found out cocaine was cheaper
>>in Concord, CA.
>
>Just curious... Did you ever actually know Tom Float, or did you just choose
>to believe the bullshit that the people at Spirit obviously fed you?

Obviously, I've only heard the bullshit.  Everyone was pretty down
on him when I started with Spirit, as he had just left.  They were
pretty down on everyone who left with him too.

My comments would have been accepted in Spirit in the early 80's,
because that was how the people who stayed behind felt.

I guess this once again serves to remind that rumor and innuendo fly
rampant throughout the activity, and this newsgroup has brought some
of use closer to opinions we would never other wise have heard.

I'll try to hold my tongue on things I don't know about in the
future...

Niel

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Niel M. Bornstein                              chinchilla!niel@cars.com |
| 1352 North Morningside Drive               ...csn!sable!chinchilla!niel |
| Atlanta, Georgia  30306                 (404) 872-6883   (404) 551-8075 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions? I don't need no stinkin' opinions!                            |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: fath@mbcrr.dfci.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Prodigy Drum Corps
Date: 27 Dec 1992 17:05:57 GMT
Organization: Dana-Farber Cancer Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mbcrr.harvard.edu

Well,

I got Prodigy for Xmas and immediately checked out the drum corps discussion
on it.  It is quite good -- high signal to noise ratio and interesting
discussions going on at the moment, esp. about the role of judging in
drum corps.

Bill Cook and Don Pescione have posted in the last day, Bill Cook is a very
active participant.  It been interesting to read his posts.  He is giving
me a very positive impression of Star.

Are other r.a.m.drumcorps folks connected to Prodigy too?  I saw a post
by Brad Halls.

Those of us on both ought to cross post some interesting messages to
stimulate discussion here as well.  I'll start and post a few Prodigy
notes over the next few days.


-- 
MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael Fath		fath@mbcrr.harvard.edu
M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
M     M F       Boston, MA 02115	Merry Christmas Everyone!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps