HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tdbear@tandon.com (Tom Barrett)
Subject: Re: send a Sinead for ...
Organization: Tandon Corporation, Moorpark, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:29:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.200114.15050@midway.uchicago.edu> elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>If you, like I, have a store nearby selling inexpensive second-hand
>albums (or cutouts), this sounds like an excellent way to donate to
>the registered queer charity of your choice.  :-)

While this sounds like a good move, I seriously doubt that
they would donate the money to Hospices, youth outreaches,
Gay Food Banks, etc... PLUS I did not see the ripping of the
Pope as anything.  The Pope has forgiven her (which was an
equally pugent insult... especially if he followed it with
"she knows not what she does."), so why can't people see it as
a simple matter of freedom of expression.  Deep down, I have a
feeling that Pope Paul regards homosexuals with a little more
respect than his administration, but he is somewhat powerless
to change those old farts.


-- 
Tom Barrett (TDBear)    tdbear@tandon.com          voice: 805-378-6207
Tandon Corporation      609 Science Drive          Moorpark, CA  93021 
Sr. HW Design Engineer  "War is Peace, No is Yes, And We're All Free!" 
-=>NOTE:  The feed to tdbear@tandon.com may be interrupted in Sept.<=-
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Why you people alienate so many...
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:39:07 GMT
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct15.063944.11420@netcom.com>, jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
|> In article <1992Oct15.011511.8688@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess 
|> Anderson) writes:

|> >Well, we all have our flaws.  Yours is seeing a cabal under
|> >the sheets.
|> 
|> There are certainly some cabalists I wouldn't mind seeing under the sheets
|> - my sheets. 


E-Cruising 101:

When cruising people over the net, always name names.  Otherwise, how will
they know you want them?


FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: M A D O N N A
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 19:49:45 GMT

mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

>> By the way, has anybody seen the "Erotic" video?  I saw a clip and Madonna  
>> reminded me of Annie Lennox 10 years ago in the video for "Sweet Dreams (Are  
>> Made Of This)" ...

>So the hair question has been answered?  Short carrot top?  Or was that
>a poste Sweet Dreams Lennox?

Well, actually the resemblance is in the eye-makeup moreso than the hairstyle.


-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. **Clinton-Gore '92!**
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
"If a bullet should enter my brain, let that bullet destroy every closet door."
                                                                 -Harvey Milk
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Stealth African Marauding soc.motss
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 12:15:04 GMT


In article <thaaang.719030902@cwis> thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu
(John Dorrance) writes:

>[good stuff]

Gotta hand it to ya, toots, you got more than potential, you
got a gift.  Keep on usin' it!

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Culture (was Re: Ah, Fashion.)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 10:04:44 GMT

jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer) writes:

>> Jack Hamilton (jfh@netcom.com) suggests:
>> 
>> >If you want ambiguity, not to mention a touch of pretentiousness, n'est-ce
>> >pas is better.                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) demurs:

>> Oh, *I* wouldn't!  Unh-uh, not me, no way.

>Oh, I don't know, it has a certain je ne sais quoi.

Mais oui!

--
John Dorrance * Alleged Homosexual/Shameless Hussy * thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

			Dark. Handsome. 6 feet tall.
		  31 flavors? I believe he's got 'em all!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Ah, Fashion.
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:04:53 GMT

mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
>The host (about whom I know nothing except that his
>name is Jerry Springer...)

Former mayor of Cincinnati, and otherwise failed politician (I think
he ran for governor of Ohio and lost).  The _Chicago Tribune_ ran an
article on him and his show a few weeks ago -- he sounded articulate,
intelligent, liberal, and a host of other good things.

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
  "I find your answers egregiously disingenuous."  --Aaron Freeman,
   black comedian and talk-show host, to a black Republican guest
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ah, Fashion.
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:27:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct8.052735.23765
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Oct7.204505.10665@osf.org> coren@osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
>I'll leave it you to sort out who is, or might be, about to be in the
>same room with whom, in a relatively short time.

that's the wonderful thing about e-fucking - there's no need to worry
about dreary things like who is in the same room, or how many people
are present, or any of that stuff. It's all available, virtually.

Now, to go write that interface..
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/     In a totally sane society, madness is the only freedom
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Wash 'n Fold (was Re: Out in a snap (was Re: Ah, Fashion.))
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:55:46 GMT


I'm gonna take one bit of Laura's article:

In article <36316@hoptoad.uucp>, laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) writes:

|> Hell, I'd pay the $20 to not have to schlep a full laundry basket 
|> 4 blocks to the local laundromat, let alone the time wasted watching
|> your laundry and folding it.
|> 
|> Being able to afford wash&fold is something that only the most poor
|> cannot afford, and only the most miserly would resent.  

I was introduced to WashDryFold (as it's called back here)
in 1984.  My first response was "No, you're kidding, someone
to do your laundry for you?  No way!" but it was true.
For not much more money than you would pump into a washer
and dryer someone will wash your clothes, bleaching the
whites if you wish (cum towels, you know) and fold them
and give them back to you.  I honestly wonder how I did
without it.  They also (and this is the most amazing part
to me) sort your socks.  Heaven.

In 1986 I discovered shirt laundries.  No more ironing!
It's not quite as cheap but honey I ain`t slingin' *my*
tits over a hot iron when it's 95 degrees out with equal
humidity!  Light starch and they stay nice looking all 
day.  We just switched to a new cleaning person who will
supposedly iron shirts as well as clean.  $30 every other
week for a sparkling clean apartment and ironed shirts.
I, as they say, can deal.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ah, Fashion.
Date: 8 Oct 92 08:04:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Oct8.080444.3464
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Oct8.053824.24335@reed.edu> I say, to Steve:
>Should I trot out a list of my cultural icons, things that people I
>know recognize, and then claim you are sheerly perverse, insulated, or
>disinterested for not recognizing them?

I realize, upon reflection, that this analogy is not quite right. I
would be hard pressed to find something that is simultaneously a
"cultural icon", but that Steve is not aware of. Why? Because he's
older than I, and he's had a lot more experience and is aware of more
things, including those new cultural icons (like Madonna) that I
think are being manufactured now.

I think I could come up with a few examples of things that are
culturally significant to many of my peers that Steve (and others)
would not be aware of, but it would be fairly difficult and the
examples would be rather minor. Anything of the scale of Madonna,
Steve knows about. Why? Because they're current icons, and Steve is a
current person.

An analogy that makes my point better is someone who is a cultural
icon of an era past, but is forgotten now. Oddly, I can't come up with
a good example now - I'm tempted to throw out Marie of Roumania, but
most motssers know who she is. Maybe I should do a bit of research,
and come up with a few examples.

The point is, there's no reason to claim people are "uneducated"
because they don't have the same cultural vocabulary you do,
particularly when it is clear that what is going on is a generational
effect. Icons fade from currency. However, they frequently retain
their historical interest.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   Nothing is true; everything is permitted
From: ST402341@brownvm.brown.edu (Gary Byma)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: The Unwritten Law
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:34:17 GMT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

In article <1bchgrINN3bs@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
said:
>
>In article <1bcg5jINNsdu@stanley.cis.Brown.EDU>
>byma@clouseau.cog.brown.edu writes:
>
>> Either you have a just and loving God who has no problem with
>> men loving men and women loving women, or you have an unjust
>> God.
>
>A just God?  An unjust God?  Have you ever read the
>Book of Job, Gary?

The very fact that you ask, Arne, suggests to me that you believe
that God visited the calamity upon Job, when in fact it was the
devil. In allowing it, God was demonstrating the faithfulness of
of his servant Job, who never stopped believing in God despite
the horrors visited on him.
I think the book that best addresses the issues raised in Job
is "When bad things happen to good people" written by a rabbi
whose name escapes me at the moment. His interpretation was that
God is constrained to not act in preventing bad things from
happening, in part, because it would violate the natural laws
or violate the free will of others.
Of course a less benign interpretation would be that God was
somehow responsible for what happened to Job and the message is
you do not question God's actions. I find this interpretation
unsatisfactory.
With respect to my own
homosexuality, I do not believe that God made me homosexual, that
is just a statistical accident.
>
>>      I know which one I would want to serve.
>
>The one who reaffirms what you think.
>
>Arne

I wouldn't say that it 'reaffirms' what I think. Rather it affirms
who I am without forcing to reject God outright. So perhaps it
affirms what I would like to think.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: Re: Why you people alienate so many...
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: not naming names
Organization: penguins on parade
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:02:35 GMT

not naming names because you're afraid you'll leave someone out!
jack, you *tease*!

i am curious (ohio)
From: root@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Operator)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: OCA phone:(503)682-0653
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:28:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: hilbert.1992Oct9.192841.13936
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Northwest, Beaverton Oregon

I just recieved this little bit of information, which
I thought you might find interesting.

Phone number for the O.C.A.: 1-(503)-682-0653

Why don't yall give 'em a call and tell 'em what you
think about them painting gays as disease-ridden promiscuous
child molesters? Why not ask them to explain the many lies
they print, such as claiming that Bill Clinton supports their
measure, when he sent a telegram to the No on 9 rally stating
otherwise, and claiming NBC lawyers had said that the measure
was in their opinion constitution (when they never did)?

I am not advocating a phone-blitz, which could tie up their
phone lines for days (weeks?), exhaust their volunteers, and
give them a taste of the storm and fury descending upon them ;)
I am simply asking a few tens of thousands of my friends to
give them a piece of their mind.

Alternatively, you could all call and ask for copies
of their literature to be sent to fictional addresses.
Each leaflet misdirected is a leaflet and stamp down the
drain.

Put the word on the street and have a nice day.

	Glade McCready
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Subject: Re: M A D O N N A 
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:33:24 GMT

lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) writes:
>By the way, has anybody seen the "Erotic" video?  I saw a clip and Madonna  
>reminded me of Annie Lennox 10 years ago in the video for "Sweet Dreams (Are  
>Made Of This)" ...

I saw the video on MTV Europe last Saturday.  It is *very* explicit,
not in bare bodies, but in things S&M.  Even the French people present
(i.e., everybody except me) were pretty startled.  We are placing bets
for how long it will last.  Previous history (Prince's "Sexy
Motherfucker" becoming "Sexy [ridiculous scream]") does not bode well.

,
Eamonn
From: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Anthony Berno)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Fag Rhetoric (was: Stealth African)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:26:46 GMT
Reply-To: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca

In article <1992Oct13.125644.17945@seq.uncwil.edu> drollin@seq.uncwil.edu  
(David A. Rollins) writes:

> ...and if my phrase, fag-rhetoric, offends anyone, that's too bad
> because that's what it is. It is an abundance of whining about why
> "nobody likes me 'cause I'm gay." It's ridiculous and stupid and
> immature, and you, Steve, help to perpetuate this farce of life by
> ranting on the very people you espouse to care about.


What "fag rhetoric"? I could see where, superficially, one might consider  
some statements made on this newsgroup (particularly those regarding AIDS  
and its transmission) as being little more than sloganeering. However, I  
think that you will find that almost all of the ideas in the "fag  
rhetoric" on this newsgroup have in fact been very well justified. To call  
most of the ideas espoused by the more thoughtful readers such as Steve  
Dyer, Jess Anderson and others is to display an incredible shallowness in  
the interpretation of their postings.

Give me a concrete example of this fag rhetoric. I bet you can't find a  
hell of a lot.

My feeling is that you categorize the stuff on this newsgroup as  
"rhetoric" because you can't come up with anything that stands up to it  
yourself.

-Anthony
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sister Souljah on White Feminists -- They Want to Seduce Black Women
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:19:44 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <1992Oct15.140600.20710@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <1992Oct15.004509.20780@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>>	Is there _any_ support for SS's contentions? 

>Of *course* it's true.  Sex, sex, sex - that's the real
>motivation for feminism.  And gay men just want to be
>Boy Scout Leaders so that they can have ready access to
>young boys, eh?

	I see what you mean.

	I've _never_ seen this accusation, that white feminists' main
interest in black women is to seduce them, before, and all you people
in netland don't seem to have heard of it either, so I think we can
safely dismiss her as yet another fruitcake.

	I guess it's safe to say that there are homophobes on the Left
as well as the Right.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Sister Souljah on White Feminists -- They Want to Seduce Black Women
Organization: LLNL
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:45:09 GMT


	I'm sure she is well known for her view on black people
killing white people for a change, expressed after the LA riots, but
she has made other bizarre accsations.

	One of them is that white feminists want to seduce black women
-- they want "to get you away from your man and to eat your pussy"
[from memory]. It was reported in _Rolling Stone_ that she stated this
in one of her raps. Apparently, she still stands by her assessment,
since in _Playboy_ she recently stated that too many whte feminists
were trying to urge her to become a lesbian like them, that they were
more preoccupied with lesbianism than personal empowerment.

	Is there _any_ support for SS's contentions? Or is this type
of conclusion in a league with her view that, although she has known
some "nice" white people, that she has _never_ known a "good" one.
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: They've *ruined* the _New Yorker_
Date: 16 Oct 92 09:25:34 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <Bw6JM6.2sA@news.udel.edu>,
conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> In article <1992Oct15.022509.17598@boy.com>
> robert@boy.com (Robert A. Swirsky) writes:
> >In this week's issue, some Clueless Reader wrote to ask
> >what they meant by a "tetragrammatonic mustache."
> 
> Not an entirely clueless question, IMHO.  The answer conceded that the
> moustache did not resemble "the name of God," but rather a moustache
> such as one might expect the Deity to sport.  Still, I think I figured
> it out the first time, or close enough.

Whew!
I still hadn't figured out how to spell "moustache" in four letters.

-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*excrement* (Shak.) n. an outgrowth, a moustache"
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.
Date: 10 Oct 92 17:23:54 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Oct10.133226.19664@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>Not to gainsay anything you've said in this posting, which I
>thought highly pertinent, what comes to my mind on this very
>last line is views that may inhabit the people who when you
>said "Ella is not an icon; Billie is" said "Wait a minute!"

Well, of course, there's no unanimity of matters of taste;
we can only hope for some broad agreement. :-)

To get back to the original definition of "icon", you might say that
there is an aspect of hagiolatry or martyrolatry in the definition
some of us are using.  There's a tragic aspect to most of these people,
whose humanity grabs us by the throat in the midst of their accomplishment:
Callas, Pushkin, Piaf, Wilde.  It's not a necessary part of the phenomenon,
but it's a frequent one.  (It's also not sufficient: Christina Onassis?
Jayne Mansfield?)

>Well, Ella I would call an icon of jazz singers,

Hold that thought.

>and there are other jazz icons: Ornette Coleman, Charlie Parker, etc.

Agreed.

>There are lots of jazz singers, but none with the scope of Ella.
>In the world of jazz, she just *is*, and it's a mighty big thing that she is.

Well, I'd agree that she's a big name not only in jazz but in popular
music, and I enjoy her "Songbook" albums and her singing style,
which nonetheless means reducing all nuance to nonsense and pain to
pleasantries.  (Eeek! ducking...)  Scat singing might be another matter--
the words aren't important.  But there's something about Ella which
strikes me as too comfortable (in every way: her art, her life) which
disqualifies her in my mind as in icon.  Unless you think cataract
surgery counts as suffering.  (I _actually wheeled her down to the
MEEI operating room_ one summer in college working as an orderly.)

>The power of an icon is less what *it* is than what *we* are
>in terms of that icon.  In ways I haven't yet articulated in
>any detail (and probably won't and maybe can't), one reason
>this discussion has become so long is that it takes *time*,
>really a lot of it, to make the distinction between icon and
>star palpable in one's *own* life-experience.

Bingo.  From the evidence here, I think it involves crossing the age
of 26 or thereabouts, but there may be something cognitive involved,
too. :-)

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: Ah, Fashion.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:13:46 GMT

Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) wrote:
> 
> I have a decent regard for Madonna, who's nobody's dummy,
> but a person of the cultural stature of Dietrich she's not
> very likely ever to be, nor even of the stature of Janis
> Joplin, to pick someone in the music field.
> 
> -- 
Who's Janis Joplin?

Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com
From: cc0001@medtronic.COM (Christopher Carriero)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Psychoanalysis, anybody?
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:46:07 GMT
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.

In article <1992Oct12.162025.10567@athena.mit.edu> max@athena.mit.edu (Max Meredith Vasilatos) writes:
>maffray@imag.fr (Frederic Maffray) writes:
>
>>I would like to launch a new topic: Psychoanalysis.
>
>Request for clarification:  psychoanalysis, as opposed
>to psychotherapy?  As far as I know, only two schools -
>Jungian and Freudian - perform analysis, and they differ,
>even within their own cohorts, about how this ought to
>be done.  Broadly speaking, the Freudian approach requires
>several years of *daily*, pretty much nondirected, couch
>talk.  Remember what Freud thought of homosexuality,
>though (complete nondirectedness can't happen; there's
>always a context).  Jungian analysis, while less strict
>about the mechanics, brings more overt ideology (about
>dreams and symbology, to be grossly oversimplistic) into
>the analytical environment.  
>
>_Echo's Subtle Body_ by Patricia Berry would give you
>an idea of how women's/lesbian/feminist issues might be
>approached in a Jungian setting.  
>
>If you're talking about psychotherapy, crisis intervention,
>or other types of clinical psych, that's a whole 'nother
>ball of wax.  You might look at _Psychotherapy with Lesbian
>Clients_ by Kristine L. Falco for a good shot at what
>therapists *ought* to be doing wrt their clients' gayness.


Some interesting information...

Back in the 70's (I believe), the diagnosis of Homosexuality
was removed from the DSM III as a disorder.  (The DSM III
is the reference book used by psychologists, therapists,
social workers, and psychiatrists to diagnose clients).

Currently, there is a push by "certain psychiatrists", that
Homosexuality should be put back into the DSM III as a 
disorder.  

Makes you sick, doesn't it!

>
>Max
>max@athena.mit.edu

-- Chris


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Carriero			cc0001@medtronic.com
Medtronic, Inc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss