From: martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas)
Subject: Re: looking for God
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:44:57 GMT

Betty Lee Dowlin (BLD110@psuvm.psu.edu) writes:

>After wading through many posts on this list I am amazed at two things.  One
>that so many seem to be saying that the behavior of some people has anything
>to do with the existance of God.  Does the fact that someone says they believe
>in God and then behave violently toward others mean that God has failed in
>some way?  Does the fact that the christian religion as a whole does not hold
>up to reasonable inquiry mean that their is no God?  Does the fact that people
>of all religions seem prone to go to war and commit all kinds of violence in
>the name of what they believe to be God mean that there is no God?  It seems to
>me that it would indicate that these view of God are not acceptable to me.

I think you'll find the posts that point out flaws, inconsistencies
and injustices in today's religions are doing simply that, no more.
The intention is to rebel against those fundamentalists that assert
their ideas are True without ever having really thought about it.
(This is how I view it, of course, I can't speak for everyone else)

Nobody is trying to disprove God.  However, once a religion is
demostrated to have serious flaw/inconsistencies/injustices etc
then it does put serious doubts against taking things by faith alone,
especially that particular religion.  For if parts of it are
demonstratably false, then how can anyone know which of the other
unprovable parts are false or not?

These arguments lead towards "not believing there is a God",
and not, as you imply, "believing there is no God".

>The second is the use of the Bible as an athority.  If this book was given to
>the world today and we were told that here we would find all we needed to know
>about God - I dare say not one organization would be formed to preach from it.

Hallelujah, sister.

>It has taken on the form of a God in itself, and has frozen people into a
>place where they can not have a relationship with God if they are lead past
>what it says in the Bible.  Sad.  But not worth trying to argue with.

Unless people who believe the Bible try to impress their
beliefs upon non-believers, or adversely affect non-believers
lives with their ideas.  In that case they deserve all the 
returning arguments non-believers can give them, IMHO.

>I have a question for those of you who are sure that there is no evidence that
>God exists.  What is the life force?  What is that leaves that body when it
>dies?  

How do you know anything "leaves" as such?  Still, I see what
you're saying..."When a life dies: what changes?"  I would answer
that it is something we don't fully understand as yet.  It need not
be an autonomous spirit, necessarily.
"What happens to a flame when it burns out?" is a similar question.
I'm don't think you'd think the answer to that is that its soul
goes up to heaven.

Even supposing a hitherto "hidden" life force was discovered, and
EVEN if we somehow found that we had "souls" that were somehow
recycled between incarnations, and/or existed without our
physical bodies, what evidence is it for a God?  It's an 
entirely separate issue.

>When you pick a flower what flows from it that causes it to wilt?

I understood it was from a lack of nutrients and water from
its root system.  Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

>What do you use to explain our complex ecosystem which can not operate
>without the full circle of elements, i.e. soil can not produce vegitation
>without humas.

Have you heard of hydroponics?  It is perfectly possible
to grow plants in nothing but water and basic chemicals.
Even in Nature there are plenty of cactii, rock-plants, and
undersea plants that grow without humus.

As to the complex ecosystem... you have heard of the theory
of evolution, I take it?

>It seems to me that most of those writing on this list are blindly posting
>their rhetoric without really listening or considering what the others are
>saying.

If this is so, then it seems to me you are part of that majority.
But I'd be most pleased to hear supporting arguments for your statements.

Cheers,
Martin
--
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