From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.greek,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Morning the porn-peddler" and "Zap* the criminal" got caught again.
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 13:32:54 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C19BsM.8qD@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>Cosar and 'Mutlu' attempted to flood an ftp site with porn by forging a 
>posting.

Nobody ever exposed you and "Zap* the criminal" of IBM quite like that
before? Did you criminals really think that you could get away with your 
crimes forever? Remember what happened to "Zap* the criminal" of IBM?
And you ain't seen nothin' yet. 

>They got caught with there fingers in the cookie jar :-)

Poor "Zap* the criminal" of IBM. And you move like you are crazed,
"morning the porn-peddler". "Forgery" is a crime in this country and
you crooks are paying for your crimes. "dcs.glasgow.ac.com" will 
also pay for it. Never mind the details. 

>Hence the name switch.

A typical ASALA/SDPA/ARF crook. That is the result of watching Greek 
porno material at ASALA/SDPA/ARF too much. Lost your brain cells in 
the ASALA/SDPA/ARF cookie jar?

>This is my last word on this, time for the kill file since nothing is
>forthcoming from Cosar re the question I posed him other than endless whining.

And I live in awe of ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals. Not a chance. 

What a joy...

#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK


#From: cosar@tera.cs.umn.edu (A.Coras)
#Message-ID: <1991Jan11.034722.15814@cs.umn.edu>

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Davidian Addressing Accusations I

[AC] >From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
[AC] >Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
[AC] dd>According to Esat Uras [1], 2,345 Armenians were removed from Istanbul
[AC] dd>on April 24-26, 1915 and were murdered. Go get the book, Uras has been
[AC]                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[AC]   Where did you find the "1915 AND WERE MURDERED" LIAR David Davidian?

[AC] >From a text you don't have! Besides I have Yale University to back me up!
[AC]
[AC] Who says that I don't have the "text"? Here is the Turkish Text:
[AC]
[AC] Source: Esat Uras, "Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi," Belge 
[AC] Yayinlari, 1976 (2nd Edition).
[AC]
[AC] p. 612.
[AC]
[AC]   "Bununla beraber Istanbul'da oturan 77,735 Ermeniden soz konusu olan 
[AC]    ihtilallere katilmaktan sanik olarak yalniz 2345 kisi tutuklanip, 
[AC]    digerlerinin huzur ve rahatla is ve gucleriyle mesgul olduklari ve
[AC]    buyuk bir guvenlik icinde yasadiklari goz onune alinirsa, bu
[AC]	tedbirlerin herhalde gerekli oldugu ve Ermenilere karsi hicbir hareket
[AC]	anlamini tasimadigi meydana cikar."
[AC]
[AC] in English:
[AC]
[AC]   However, considering the fact that only 2345 of the 77,735 
[AC]   Armenians living in Istanbul were arrested because of joining 
[AC]   the mentioned revolutions, and the others have been living and 
[AC]   continuing their activities with peace and comfort in a 
[AC]   great security, it becomes clear that these precautions 
[AC]   were necessary and was not a move against Armenians [as a nation]

[AC] Where did you find the "1915 AND WERE MURDERED" David Davidian? Or are 
[AC] you a Liar?

>No liar. Based on your source, you are simply correct for Uras directly wrote
>that 2,345 Armenian were arrested (tutuklamak). Those Armenians were deported 
>and eventually murdered. Note, I didn't add quotations around the text 

Where did you find the "eventually murdered" Davidian? Any sources, references?

>associated with Uras. He simply supported my contention that Armenians from 

Now trying to twist after claiming that it was true by giving it with a 
reference to Esat Uras. Why did you, then, give it with a reference to
Esat Uras? You little duckling, and why did it take you so long to say that
it was not a quote from Esat Uras? Why didn't you accept it 1 month before
when I first asked it. Why did you prefer to say that:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
>Subject: Read Before You Write - You Looked in the Wrong Book!
>Keywords: Turkish Re-Write of History
>Message-ID: <1135@urartu.SDPA.org>
>Date: 21 Dec 90 15:26:31 GMT

Now, tell me Davidian. Which one is trying to Re-Write history? Which one is
playing around quotes? Which one is quoting non-existing quotes? Which one
is adding "1915 and were murdered" and when caught on revision, trying to 
escape saying that "I didn't put it in quotes"? You insisted that it was 
"correct". You gave "correct" references for me to find, and now you say 
"it was not a quote"? You are a truly a very low life form Davidian.


>Istanbul were arrested, deported and were murdered. Read my original postings 
>with the 1988 English version of Uras's text. You were so zealous in your 
>attempt to discredit me, you forgot the original purpose of our "discussion"! 

Original purpose? I am only exposing your lies, that's all. It is a very 
simple task, I go and check everything you say and find your lies.

>I showed that Istanbul Armenians were indeed deported during the genocide. You

Only 2345 out of 77,735 , and those who were involved in revolutions.

>spent so much time calling me a liar, you forgot to address the real issue! If

Why? Didn't I expose your lies? Isn't that an issue for you? Who are you?
Aren't you the Davidian that I have been exposing his lies for one month?

>you recall, Cosar, you asked me to prove that Armenians from Istanbul were 
>removed...and I did, but you never provided a refutation.

"Removed"? Where did you get it? They were arrested that's all in those
paragraphs, where did you find the "rest"? Please give me the reference
and quote.

>In contrast, however, I did include quotes around the following text:

>    On December 7th, 1915 the German Ambassador Metternich informed Berlin 
>    that 4,000 Armenians have been deported from Istanbul and that the total 
>    up to that time was 30,000 deported and that "gradually a clean sweep will
>    be made of the remaining 80,000 Armenians of the Ottoman capital".

This contradicts with your Esat Uras paragraph. Which one do you believe in?
How could 30,000 Armenians out of 77,735 be deported and still 80,000 of
them remain? Aren't you again a little bit off mathematics?

>Turkish source, meaning it from "your side" -- not mine), what about the 
>30,000 "already deported", and another "4,000", etc., from the German source?

Tell me about the Armenian population in Istanbul, with references and quotes,
then I will give you another lecture on mathematics, ok?

[AC] Himm, a typical example of Rewriting-History. When the original document 
[AC] does not support you, have it translated to English by an "independent 
[AC] Armenian Translator" and then use it to support your lies.

>Again, Cosar, you are so much of a zealot, still after my pants, you failed to

We saw the one after pants, didn't we?

>note that I have nothing to do with the Yale Journal, nor do Armenians. I

How about Dadrian? Or better "Dadrain"?

>never mentioned about translations, the Yale Journal is in English.

Yokh yav? Thanks for the info.

[AC] >	"The accuracy of the sources used in this article was verified by
[AC] >	 an independent translator jointly hired by the Yale Journal of
[AC] >	 International Law and Professor Dadrain (the author). The Journal
[AC] >                                   ^^^^^^^
[AC] >	 took this unprecedented step because the location of the sources
[AC] >	 and the variety of foreign languages in which the material appear
[AC] >	 made an exhaustive review by the Journal staff impossible.

[AC] I think you mean "Dadrian", don't you? Are we again trying to hide the
[AC] Armenian-Connection Mr. Davidian?

>No Cosar, it's called a typographical error. If you get a copy of Yale Journal

If this "typo" is done by someone who "forgets" to put quotes around his
quotes, then claims them to be true for one month and then say, "Oh, I did
not put quotes around them", then one better suspect.

>you will read Dadrian. I am not hiding anything. In contrast, in TEL you

Who, you? The one who claimed his "fake-quote" as true for one month?

>claimed that Cosar is your real name, not Coras!

Why are you interested in my "real" name?

>And once again, Cosar, your zealousness helped prove my point, and as a bonus
>you contradicted yourself and Professor Justin McCarthy, as follows:

Justin McCarthy? What are you talking about Davidian? Have you begun losing
your mind? May be I shouldn't have hit your head so strong, sorry if it
caused some permanent damage.

>I was referring to page 266 in the Yale Journal! -- which says "eventually
>executed" - note: the quotes.

Please give this quote Davidian, I will anyway get a copy of this issue,
but I want you to quote it yourself, will you?

>You fell into the same trap I had caught another fool in via email! You spent 

Who is this fool? Give me his name. May be someone that we know ha?
Tell me who is this fool caught by your "lies"?

>so much time fighting the battle -- calling me a liar -- you lost the war! By 

Again? Who made you the "referee"? Who counted the scores? What game were we
playing? The one who tells more "lies" wins! Was this the name of the game?
BTW, aren't you a little optimistic with fake-quotes, fake-references and
and a fake-translation at hand made in 1990?

>the way, can you read German?

>Now, I request you to FAX me a copy of page 612 and the copyright page of YOUR
>Uras's text. My work FAX number is (508) 872-8692. Thank you.

First you please, send a copy your Yale journal at the below address(No bombs
please, there are 600 more people living there):

Ahmet Cosar
Computer Science Department
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26118 alt.revisionism:977 soc.history:10918