From: frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de ()
Subject: Re: Abortion vs. Adoption
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 09:58:59 GMT

regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
: In article <1992Aug31.122431.15398@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de writes:
: >I don't accept that as abortion is ever over and done with 
: >as you suggest.
: 
: Why not?

Why not not?

That is, why did the original poster assert her position.  And
where were you then?

Read on for why not.

: 
: >I'm saying that the knowledge of the child *you* might have 
: >raised, or might have had adopted, for that matter,  is with 
: >you for the rest of your life.   
: 
: So is the knowledge of the children you might have raised that you 
: decided never to conceive.

Not really, Adrienne.  [And these terminals should have two little
lights - red to go on when someone is just arguing,
and green to go on when someone is saying something they
really believe :-) ]. 

By actually conceiving, I would imagine that you are suddenly 
in a world of shit, which is not generally the case when 
deciding not to conceive. 

You are placed in the position of *having* to make the 
decision, PDQ.  You have a new option, which is having the 
child, then opting for adoption (which we are supposed 
to be discussing).   That option isn't relevant when you 
simply decide never to have kids.  Plus, nobody is telling 
you that deciding not to conceive is immoral.  Plenty of 
people are willing to tell you that about abortion, and 
please note that I am not one of them.  In the face of all 
this, only  an automaton would not have at least a nagging 
doubt about having an abortion.

: 
: >In fact, all I'm saying is: abortion, for women who choose it,
: >is a Big Deal.  They will be affected by it for no little time.  
: >I find *your* claim about "most people" reveals very little 
: >understanding of human nature.
: 
: Upon what grounds do you make this claim?
: 

No studies. No reports. No evidence.  I can't uuencode
a woman's conscience and upload it for you.  The whole
thing stands or falls on what any honest woman tells
you about an abortion she has had.

But any woman I have spoken to says the same thing: "no woman
chooses abortion lightly".  I believe that.  I also believe
that something that significant alters ones life.

I also wonder, what if it (abortion) *is* wrong?   You
know, suppose the z/e/f turned out to be a person all
along.   Suppose (whisper it) YOU GOT IT WRONG!  AGAIN!
Suppose that someone up there was mighty pissed off about 
all this pro-choicing.  Where would that leave us?  What
would that do to the woman who decided to abort?  And
finally, is that what is in fact happening?

If you believe in a conscience, and I believe your personal
experience will demonstrate this, then if abortion is indeed 
(morally) wrong, then women who choose it will know it - though 
the consequences of that are so appalling that they may drive 
it so deep that it is almost unknown to them.  Maybe that's a
negative affect, maybe not.  It's not a weight I'd like
to carry.

However, I would say that is very hard to distinguish
between a woman who feels genuine guilt and woman who
is a victim of the "guilt industry" that surrounds this
whole topic.  Only the woman herself can make that distinction.
Even if you feel (note I do not say "think" - I'm sick
to death of emotions posing as theorems on this newsgroup)
that abortion is basically O.K., this guilt-tripping is
still something that society has to deal with.



: There have been studies performed on these issues, you know.  Do you know
: what the bulk of these studies have found?  

I'm not really sure we're talking about the same issues, Adrienne.  
But you're quite correct.  I am completely ignorant of any and
all studies concerning abortion, and would welcome a reference 
to some of them.  Has anyone really studied a statistically significant 
number of women's consiences?  I'm not trying to be facetious (that 
isn't spelt correctly, is it?)  - it's just that as I personally 
believe there are barely words to describe this, I don't see how
it can be reduced to bar graphs, pie charts, and numbers.  

Furthermore, I guess you think that studies are always unbiased.  On
this topic, I wonder.  Did you do science at school?  Didn't you ever 
draw the line first, and then plot the data?  If you didn't, ask your 
wild friends.  I'm sure I could find (or even do) a study which would 
appear to support what I am saying, as I'm sure, could you.

We'll leave the question of how scientific such studies can be 
for another day, when it isn't so hot in this office :-)

By the way, the original poster did not justify her "over and 
done with" claim with any perceptible knowledge base or learned 
studies.  Yet you did not deem it necessary to point that out.

: Upon what knowledge base do
: you decide that women will be 'affected by it for no little time' (and,
: by affected, I'm thinking negatively affected, given the thrust of your
: previous writings on this topic.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Only the knowledge base of a single individual, I'm afraid.
This is based on people I know, and certain aspects of my
own experience.  I'm willing to grant you, that as a woman,
your knowledge base on this topic is probably two orders
of magnitude greater than mine.  It's got nothing to do with 
any "studies" you may have read, I'm sorry to tell you.  


Nevertheless, it is devoutly to be wished that people
who think that abortion is always "over and done with" are
not on the front line counselling women who are considering
abortion.  Wouldn't you say?    Safe, legal, early and *rare*
(approximately the original posters .sig, from memory) is not 
an unreasonable manifesto.


: 
: Adrienne Regard
: 


P.S. If you follow up to this - could you also email me a copy.
We have a very clunky news feed, and I only get to see random
snapshots of t.a.  You should use the address on
the .sig., anything else doesn't seem to work.  Thanking you.

--
Frank O'Dwyer		       			Disclaimer: 
Siemens-Nixdorf AG 	                        I will deny everything
Tel.  : +49 (89) 636-40639                      Fax.  : +49 (89) 636-45860
e-mail: Frank.ODwyer@sniap.mchp.sni.de <--Use this, reply-to is broken
Newsgroups: talk.abortion