HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@jammin.nosc.mil (mike pawka)
Subject: CFV: rec.music.reggae
Organization: NRaD
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:24:18 GMT

Call For Votes

Proposed Newsgroup: rec.music.reggae

Type: Unmoderated

Charter: This newsgroup is intended for the discussion of the popular music form
         known as "reggae" which evolved from Jamaican popular music but has
       	 become quite popular world-wide. This would include ska, rock-steady,
         roots, dub, dj, and dancehall artists, new albums, concerts, ect.


The voting period will be active up to and including Friday, 27 November

Mail all votes to MIKEY@PERCH.NOSC.MIL

Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:08:10 GMT

Followups to news.groups.

In article <7@bbx.basis.com> scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker) writes:

>In article <1deecbINNi1c@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
>
>>If it wasn't relevant to r.m.synth, they 
>> wouldn't have posted the CFV there.  It
>> WAS posted, because it WAS relevant.
>> That should be clear enough.
>
>Face it, pal - you fucked up.  Why should we assume, after reading the
>misleading header, that a mistake wasn't made?

Because as a consequence, rec.music.synth is about to be renamed to
rec.music.makers.synth.  Had you spent (literally) ten or fifteen
seconds reading any of the RFD or three CFVs, then you wouldn't be in
this situation.

>I would have voted "no"
>simply because there was no reason to vote "yes".  I don't need little
>net busy-bodies rearranging the furniture because it looks cooler that
>way.

If rec.woodworking had been moved to rec.crafts.woodworking long
enough ago, we could have saved an inordinate amount of bandwidth in
the rec.*.metalworking discussion.  Keeping an organized hierarchy is
a Good Thing.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:19:49 GMT

In article <2AFE6DA6.4DCD@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> 
> Point zero: Using the phrase "class of people that understood" implies
> that this class is exclusive and limited.  Not so.  It actually refers
> to the class of people that _choose_to_know_ how the net runs, and who
> show an interest in same by reading news.announce.newgroups.  In other
> words, it is like the "class of people who vote for president".
> 
Bzzt! Please point me at a succinct list of documents that provide the  
interested people with all the information necessary. Please see the other  
posts about what I think a person would need to know, and if that  
information is readily available withput obtaining a certain degree of  
"net experience".

> Point one: It doesn't take being "intimately familiar with net
> guidelines" to participate in a vote.  All it takes is reading
> news.announce.newgroups and, if a vote catches the attention, following
> the directions found in the call for votes.  It's not brain surgery.
> 
The key point here is "if a vote catches the attention". Obviously this  
vote DIDN'T catch the attention of all people it would affect for a  
variety of reasons. Let's do something positive to change that.

> Point two: A descriptive subject line would not have prevented this
> after-the-fact carping.  Which is not to say that I oppose descriptive
> subject lines!  They are valuable.  But realize also that they are not
> magic.  They cannot give personal initiative to the terminally
> short-sighted and apathetic.  People who simply _do_not_care_ how
> Usenet is run will not take action until they see an immediate threat
> to their personal convenience -- i.e. when the vote has passed -- and
> that's too late.
> 
So we should drop discussing how to make subject lines and the voting  
process clearer? Or are you just trying to be "right" here?
 
> All they had to do was read news.announce.newgroups.  They didn't.  By
> all objective evidence, they did _not_ care ... enough.
> 

The guidelines already state that the proposal should be posted in the  
affected groups. One shouldn't have to read news.announce.newgroups to  
know of a vote affecting their group. What ISN'T in the guidelines is the  
nature of what is posted for the proposal. I and others feel this should  
be addressed.

> There is no cure for _intentional_ ignorance.

Proving "_intentional_ ignorance" is difficult. Why even bother when we  
can constructively do something to make the process better?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:03:21 GMT

In article <1dscc3INNqp3@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <BxKsnF.DJL@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>>I disagree.  A slight delay on a post which would probably come out every
>>two weeks or less is not signifigant.
>
>Have you actually ever read r.g.f.archives?  The posts there come out
>only about every two weeks, and it is UNmoderated.  Moderation
>invariably makes things slower.
>
Gee, someone had better tell Steve Mansfield and Mitch Gold (the moderators
of .archives) this fact.  Thanks for demonstrating once again why only
people who have been reading rec.games.frp as long as you know enough about
it to propose new subgroups, Josh.

Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:12:56 GMT

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>I certainly do, which is why I made sure that the all three rounds of the
>preceeding discussion, and the announcements of the vote itself, were posted
>to the appropriate places -- one of which was rec.music.synth.   

Some readers are claiming that they never saw any articles that were there.
I can't tell myself as I use NN and news.groups is before rec.music.synth.

>The voting guidelines do not specify that voters must be "real <x> posters"
>or even "real <x> readers".  Votes are open to anyone out there who would
>like to vote.  If those people who you consider "real r.m.s. posters" chose
>not to vote, then they bypassed their chance to affect the outcome.

There are people out there who cannot vote due to the fact that the BBS
that they echo the group on has no email facilities. Is the vote really
open to anyone out there? How do THEY vote? 

>I should also mention that I have not received any mail from anyone
>(following the posting of the results and the individual voting records)
>disputing their vote.  In fact, the only correspondence I've received
>is one late vote (all yes's, in case you're wondering) which I had
>to decline to include, since the voting period had passed.

Well, I did tell those people who complained to send you mail. Maybe
they didn't listen. It could even be that (gasp) they are lying. Oh well.

>Could I have faked the votes or gimmicked the results by selectively
>ignoring some of the votes?  Sure, and I could have done a much better
>job of it, too.  But I didn't.  Why in the world would I sacrifice
>my integrity and reputation for something like this?

Hey! No one is suggesting that you did. My whole reason for starting this
ruckus is the awareness I got that the name was being changed out from
under the readers of the group. I'm not aware at all of any impropriety 
by you. I just don't want to see r.m.s rmgrouped. That's all. 


-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.  There might be a
law against it by that time.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 06:06:00 GMT

In article <42+qafq@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Can you please explain *how* anyone is going to be injured by the renaming
>of this newsgroup?

And this argument comes up once again: if someone thinks a newsgroup name is
inappropriate, well, newsgroup names just don't matter.

If newsgroup names _really_ don't matter, it would be wrong to speak of a bad
newsgroup name--ever.  Yet, I'm sure you recognize that there is such a thing
as a bad newsgroup name; for instance, I doubt you would approve of
sci.aquaria.manga.music.synth.  This position just isn't consistent.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 18:57:30 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>WHY is it that only those in news.groups concerned enough to vote can
>>be able to affect those who try to stay away from news.groups?
>I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid you can't assume that.

Ah, but I can. 

>All votes are announced in news.announce.newgroups, a relatively
>low-volume group for those who don't want to read news.groups.

Granted. However...

...to affect change in an RFD...the only unmoderated place to post is 
news.groups. That means, of course, that you have to READ it.

...most people stay away from the "news" hierarchy in general. The intent
of what I said was to imply that there is a cadre of people who decide
things arbitrarily for the net. 

>You lose this round.

I don't think so. But keep trying. <grin>
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:11:05 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>SO what we are seeing here is the class struggle of the admin vs the user.

No, I really think it is the friction ("class struggle"? no way)
between those who care to learn and those who do not care to learn.

You didn't go back far enough in your analysis, Dave.  You forgot a
vital fact:  Usenet admins are self-selected.  For the most part, they
either pay for their own system, or they volunteer to run Usenet at
their places of work.  Why?  Because Usenet interests them.  As a
natural consequence, they want to learn how it works.

In other words: It is not that they care because they are admins;
rather, they are admins because they care.

This attitude is not elitism.  It is friction -- a cultural clash --
between those who would learn for the joy of learning, and those who
just learn what they must to get by, and who then don't want to face
the fact that they are responsible for their own (mis)education.

>"How much documentation do I have to read? These admins want me to read
>'War and Peace' before I have to use a system. Geez...I just want to read
>stuff about MIDI and synths."

"I just want..."  Well, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sartin@88opensi.88open.ORG (Rob Sartin)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Reply-To: sartin@88opensi.UUCP (Rob Sartin)
Organization: 88open Consortium Ltd., San Jose
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 20:44:04 GMT

The vote passed and should stand.  If you don't want the name to change,
you need to do two things:

1.  RFD/CFV to change the name back.

2.  Work to change the guidelines to prevent this sort of problem in
    the future.

Rob
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: martel@marvin.mr.sintef.no (Paulo Martel)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: University of Trondheim, Norway
Date:  9 Nov 92 13:43:33 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>"The Call For Votes subject line should be clear to even the first
>time usenet reader. Otherwise people may not pay attention to it."

NOTHING is clear for the first time usenet reader :-)

Paulo

>The greatest test of courage on earth is to fear defeat without losing heart.

 ...and accept defeat with a light heart.
--
Paulo Martel             |  e-mail: martel@marvin.mr.sintef.no |               
MR-Center                |  phone: +47-7-997700                |               
SINTEF		         |  FAX:   +47-7-997708                |               
N-7034 Trondheim, NORWAY |                                     |               
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:00:40 GMT

In article <96563@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
Kulawiec) writes:
> 
> Forgive me if I'm getting a bit testy over this, but this is the third  
time
> I've had to repost sections of the CFD and CFV in response to  
allegations
> made about them which are simply not true.
> 

Why do you think there's this much commotion? Something must be wrong  
someplace.

I'm personally not thrilled about the extra hour a day this thread is  
taking me either.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 20:10:15 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

> I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
> these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  
> lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
> newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? 

Several people have already explained why this is a problem.  In this
particular vote such a subject line would be three to five lines long,
depending on whether you consider the creation of rec.music.makers.guitar
and company to be renamings of the existing alt groups.  At this point
people would no doubt be complaining that the subject was too long to read
all the way through, or that their menu-based newsreader didn't show the
part that was most relevant to them.

The actual solution to this "problem" is simple: when someone is reading a
group they care about and sees a subject line with the letters "RFD" or
"CFV" in it, they should *READ THE ENTIRE MESSAGE*.  The fact that it
appears there in the first place means that it has some relevance to the
group they're reading, and even if that relevance is minor, chances are
that it *will* impact the content of that newsgroup in some way.  There is
no reason to dumb down the entire net with a thousand-and- one amendments
to the guidelines that cater to people who are too ignorant or lazy to
properly understand how things work. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: snewman@ccu.umanitoba.ca (S. Newman)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:39:33 GMT

In <BxEznw.GMv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:

>  ......

>Homework problem:

>Write one 56-character subject line that will sufficiently inform the
>readers of the following groups that a change is taking place when it
>is crossposted to all of them.  Be sure to include the letters RFD: or
>CFV:, whichever is appropriate, and also the proposed name of the new
>groups, rec.music.makers.*.  Leave room for prepending the characters
>'2ND ' and '3RD ' -- leaving you with four less characters to work with. 

>news.announce.newgroups 
>news.groups
>rec.music.makers
>rec.music.synth
>alt.guitar
>alt.guitar.bass
>alt.guitar.tab

No problem:

 "CFV: 2nd WARNING, We are going to change YOUR newsgroup."

Get the idea?  You don't have to pack it with detail but you DO
have to get people's attention.  Don't let the complexity of the
situation turn into an impossiblity proof and then use that as
an excuse for botching the message.

I suppose it might be unreasonable to expect my example to be the
sort of thing that would have occured to the original authors but I
also think that we have a 200-post flamefest to indicate that they
were at least as far on the other side of the *right* answer,
whatever it may be.

My position?  I don't know, I wasn't asked.  At least I missed the
question, the RFDs, CFVs, all of it.  So it feels like I wasn't
asked.  And please don't take the opportunity to prove to me what an
idiot I am.  And don't ask for my opinion now, I'm all covered with
smoke.

P.S. I would definitely have voted NO.

P.P.S. If I'd seen the original proposal in its simple form I would
probably have voted YES.

P.P.P.S. Since this is a flame, it is not directed personally at sz,
but on the other hand since it is a flame she is welcome to take it
any way she wants.

>-sz


-- 
Bill Newman			snewman@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Winnipeg, Manitoba		as236@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:00:07 GMT

In <1992Nov6.235527.24934@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>Again...the subject line of the CFV's was unclear. Based upon that
>I suggest a revote. 

Well, that seems to depend upon David Lawrence's decision.  If he sends
out a control message for r.m.m.synth, then you have no choice but to
wait 6 months, hold a discussion period and then a vote.

If tale doesn't do this, then we can hold a revote immediately.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:12:41 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>>Well, let's suppose for a moment the subject line had been something
>>that attracted the attention of all rec.music.synth readers who saw
>>it, and they all voted.
>
>If that had been the case, the rename would have never passed. 

Dave, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.  You may think it, assume it, judge it, or
guess it, but you don't KNOW it.  No one does.

>>what you do.  Even if all rec.music.synth readers voted, which would
>>probably never happen, that would not be the will of the entire
>>readership.
>
>Not of USENET, but at least of the people affected by the change.

The people affected, _today_.  What of future readers?  There is some
value in putting a group where it logically belongs, so it can be more
easily found.

>But they really didn't like the fact that some non-participants got to 
>decide where they continued their discussion so they cut themselves off
>from it all. Is that what the net wants to happen?

Now _there's_ a mature attitude.  "What?  They're going to rename the
group?  I'll show them -- I'll unsubscribe!"  Nose.  Spite.  Face.

>A lot of people said "I mailed my vote in but it wasn't counted". 

I haven't seen _anyone_ claim vote fraud.  If some did, then they had
a five-day grace period to make such complaints, anyway.  There _is_ a
provision for them, you see; perhaps they didn't take advantage, in
which case, they lose.

>Most news.admins say "Tough". Is that what the net wants to happen?

Guess what?  It doesn't matter what the net wants to happen.  What the
admins want to happen, happens.  Period.

>If we keep alienating those who are ignorant or meek, what are we becoming?

Informed and assertive?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson)
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 09:36:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.001436.15897@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.193023.15284@lth.se> bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson) writes:

>I do thing a.f.c is "worthy" to be a mainstream group. But Albert
>Einstein was certainly worhty of being president of Israel (worthier
>than most, IMHO), but still I think he did the right thing when he
>refused the offer.

Me thinks you are overestimating the importance of a.f.c just a little bit :-)

>>"talk", now there's an idea :-) But why not "misc"?
>
>SOrry, I was a bit too quick. I meant that I'm against
>misc.folklore.computers, but misc might be the best hierarchy if it
>*has* to be moved.

That was about the point I wanted to make, yes. Where would it go *if*.
Someone else mentioned the possibility to just take a vote for a mainstream
group and don't bother with the alt group. It's possible, but would lead
to a great amount of confusion (if it succeeded), so I'll rather not do that.

-- 
Bengt Larsson - bengtl@maths.lth.se

Newsgroups: news.groups