HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: On stoned Jews (was O-C-R Debate)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 11:06:44 +0300

 In: <LERNER.92Jul26140449@division.cs.columbia.edu>
 lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)  states:

>>>                                            ... What is the "moral"
>>> difference between the Orthodox of Jerusalem throwing stones at other
>>> Jews who travel on the Sabbath ...
>>>
>   This is simply not an accurate statement,  and should not be taken
>   either as factual or condoned.  Have you actually SEEN this happen,
>   or do you repeat a nasty story which someone cannonized years ago?

Are you  claiming it to  be not true that  there have been  many cases
when O  Jews (of the  Haredi "label") have  thrown stones at  Jews who
travel on  Shabbat? I do not  know about it being  "cannonized", but I
can assure Michah Lerner that it is the Gospel Truth. :-)

Does  the  name Ramot,  and  the  road leading  to  it  remind you  of
something? This was not the only location.

   Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: On Propaganda (was Slander)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 15:57:28 +0300

 On: Fri, 17 Jul 1992 18:15:07 GMT
 saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) states inter alia:

>In article <9207171617.AA21546@bit.csc.lsu.edu> <kraft@bit.csc.lsu.edu (Don Kr
>
>>Why was the responses to Lerner's post "Reform propaganda" as Saal claims.
>
>Because all Dan did was dump hours of labor posting the party line.  When
>you look at the tiny upper echelon of Reform leadership, they may well
>live what they're preaching, but that's far from the majority "I don't
>observe so I must be Reform" population.
>
>>Would Saal allow me to call some of the learned O rabbi's statements Orthodox
>>propaganda without challenge - I think not.
>
>You wouldn't, not because of the defense, but because of the laughability
>of the premise, in general.  Yes, there exist individuals in the Orthodox
>movement who are propogandists. (There, I beat you to it) But the movement
>itself isn't a purely propogandistic enterprise.

I  am  neither Reform  nor  Orthodox  and do  not  wish  to enter  the
discussion  between Saal  and  Lerner versus  Kraft.   But while  this
statement by  Sam Saal that  not all  O is "purely  propagandistic" is
correct, from  my experience I  would say that  neither is R.   On the
other hand these days, from living in Israel and abroad, I experienced
that the  Habad missionary effort directed  to Jews is a  main part of
their activity,  as are  those of  other "outreach"  groups of  the O.
What is that if not "propaganda"? I can imagine that non-O groups also
have such activities, but I noticed much more those of the Orthodox.

>Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mike@dehn.math.nwu.edu (Michael R. Stein)
Subject: Re: Kosher insects
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Northwestern University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:30:35 GMT

In article <92208.102243CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> RABBI CHARLES ARIAN <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>Certain types of locusts are kosher.
>
>I had heard it was the Yemenites, not the Ethiopians, who had an ancient
>tradition enabling them to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher
>locusts. I heard that one of the kosher types had a certain Hebrew
>letter on its belly.
........

If anyone cares, I have a Yemenite cook book with a recipe.  No time to
type it in, though :-).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael R. Stein					  mike@math.nwu.edu
Department of Mathematics, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208-2730
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Again Mafdal and the Government
Date: 28 Jul 92 10:57:42 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <199207261442.AA24457@das.wang.com>
MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:

>  <4040@bimacs.BITNET> >.. (Gideon Ehrlich)
>> the 1st time , as I remember, the Mafdal ( then another name was
>>used)  left the government was at the begining of the state . the
>>reason was the "yaldey tehran" case. Children saved from the Germans
>>during WW2 arrived to Israel after being at Tehran , send to secular
>>places even so the childs  were religious.
>
>This is  wrong.  The  Teheran Children arrived  in Israel  during WWII
>(about 1942-43), thus before Israel was independent.

Michael is right. The struggle against forcing a secular education on
the Tehram children was held by the Mizrachi ( the Mafdal of that
time) before the declaration of the state.

The reason for the resignation of the mafdal on about 55 was actually
the same reason. Forcing secular education on the new Olim in general.

Shalom  Gideon Ehrlich


















Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: why mutually exclusive? (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: ...))
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:36:25 GMT

Reform posters have been complaining that the Orthodox give them no
respect among a litany of other complaints.  Now I'd like to point out how
non-Orthodox do something quite similar.

In article <1992Jul27.224055.26806@midway.uchicago.edu>
rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>My objection to Orthodox Judaism is the reliance on authority rather
>than on logical reasoning. The Reform movement, while there are plenty
>of areas in which I disagree with it, recognizes the value of logic as
>a deductive tool (as does Talmudic Judaism, but it's something all too
>many of the Orthodox have forgotten about) and teaches students to use
>it as a way of determining accuracy and extrapolation in the study of
>Jewish Law. It's not the Reform movement's results that makes me accept
>them, but their methods.

There are two assumptions that are being made here.  The first is that
logic and the reliance on authority are mutually exclusive.  The second,
which may be an outgrowth from the first is that Reform has a monopoly on
the use of logic in understanding "what G-d _really wants."

Neither are tenable.

You don't start deriving mathematical proofs until you understand a bit
of elementary math and a few of the logical rules necessary to do so
and the easiest way to get to this point is with a teacher.  Similarly,
in Judaism there is a basic body of knowledge, and, yes, a logical
system, that must be learned (if not mastered) before a person making
halachic decisions is doing so based on anything but hubris.  For this
reason, we must turn to the teachers, the Rabbis and scholars, who have
come far enough to understand things that take so long to grasp,
assimilate, understand, and use.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lms@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Max Stern 310-524-6152)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 00:54:10 GMT

In article <84605@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com>, shdan@tudorct (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>>How do mohels get their first gigs?
>
>There are some amateur mohels who start with their own sons.
>-- 

When I was an ulpanist at Kibbutz Sde Eliyahu in 1988, I was friends
with a couple who were prospective olim and fellow talmidim at the
ulpan.  They became parents of a son during that time.  The father,
being an M.D., performed the milah himself -- it was his first
circumcision -- in the Bet Knesset, with the community mohel standing
by to supervise.

Quite a simcha, to see a father literally fulfilling the mitzvah.
(Remember that the mohel in the usual brit milah is acting as the agent
of the father, who has the obligation to bring his own son into the
covenant).

-- 

 |\/|  /_\  \/
 |  | /   \ /\                      Max.Stern@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:29:54 GMT

hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
>Where does it state in the Written Torah that circumcision is to be performed
>by a mohel?

It need not be stated.  A mohel is one who performs milah.  Do we
need the Torah to state that speaking is to be performed by a speaker?

-Don Gertler
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:04:43 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

markr@mot.com (Mark) writes:
>rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes:
>Day school will always be expensive, but there is no need for schools to
>spend an average of 6-8K per student.  There are some things schools can
>do to reduce their costs, it seems they have gotten very fat and happy
>lately.  An average day school with a few hundred students can get by with
>only 2-3 administrators.  They can get rid of the career advisors and the
>psychologists, etc, we can't afford them.

The cost of 6-8K per student certainly reflects a "subsidy" that the
haves pay so the have-nots can send their kids as well.  I suppose
the actual percentage that goes to pay for a single student depends
on the number of have-nots relative to the number of haves.

No doubt there are cost cutting options available.  As with any
organization, there is certainly waste.  I don't know where the
waste occurs.  I don't know how a yeshiva compares to public school
in the number of administrators and the like.  On the other hand,
they seem to do quite well in educating the kids, so I'd want to
carefully examine any differences before dropping them.  From what
I've seen, many of these schools provide a premium education.  It
would be a shame to drop, for example, the psychologists if they
contribute materially.  [I don't know if they do; I'm just using
them as an example.]

On the other hand, there has to be a point where we say that we're
princing Jewish education out of the reach of those who want it.
If only the privileged can afford it, then Judaism loses.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Centrality of Men/Women (Was Re: Inher
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:12:52 GMT

In article <l6oi8iINN4pr@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>
janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:

>In article 16836@cbnewsl.cb.att.com, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
>(samuel.saal) writes:

># In article <l6du5tINNfp6@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM#
>#janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:

>##                   What do you mean when you say "an Orthodox wife
>## ..constantly performs domestic duties which are religious in nature and
>## governed by religious law, with a minimum intrusion of the
>## non-religious world"?  Cooking?  Cleaning?  Taking care of kids?  Do
>#                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>## you consider these to be activities more religious in nature than her
>## husband's studying or davening?

># As a subset of the things permitted and/or required, yes.

>I never thought I'd ask this of a net poster, but could you please be a 
>little less concise?  I have no idea what this response means.

I'm glad I caused a first :-)

You asked about a few tasks that _seem_ to be stereotypical "women's"
work.  (I, a male, seem to do an awful lot of cooking and cleaning in
my house; and of the guests I invite to, say, Friday night dinner, I
suspect I am at least as good a cook as the average woman who joins
us.) While the third might be the closest to what Halachah would call
work women do, even that is not so clear (specifically, what part of
"taking care of" do you mean?  Halachah mandates a role for both men
and women in raising children).  Thus, my subset statement is only a
pointer to the far more extensive issue of understanding what the
differences are between men, women, and other members of society and
their respective roles, obligations, and responsibilities.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein)
Subject: Re: prices (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 16:35:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.121759.22644@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.175007.20979@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
>jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com> shdan@tudorct.com (Dan
>>Shimoff) writes:
>
>>>Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
>>>this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 
>>   Yes. A new mohel will often give a cut rate.
>
>I always thought prices were cheap enough: $5/hour ... plus tips.

Which reminds me of a story my grandfather told me.

It seems this non-jewish man was walking down the street.  On one shop
window, he read "Daniel Benjamin, Mohel" and in the window there were
displayed a number of very nice watches.  So, the man enters, and asks
the fellow sitting there if he could buy one of the watches.

  "Sorry, I don't sell watches," was the Daniel's reply.
  
  "Then why do you have them displayed in your window?"
  
  "What *should* I display in my window?"

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David Finkelstein               |"Nothing comes out of the faucet
University of British Columbia  | but strawberry jelly.  I guess 
davef@cs.ubc.ca                 | that's how rich millionaires live."
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:30:20 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California


In article <54931@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>	...
>
>Where does it state in the Written Torah that circumcision is to be performed
>by a mohel?  Where does it state anything about the nature of the ceremony?
>From Joshua, it seems that this commandment was not kept in the desert, and
>I can see no danger in doing it there.  
>
>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399


There are numerous details of Jewish Law required in order to perform a
"bris" (circumcision) properly. (As a crude example, take a surgeon. If
he doesn't do everything exactly 100% as it supposed to be done, it
would be far better for him not to do surgery.) So I don't think there
is any Halacha per say that a Mohel has to do the bris - only from a
practical standpoint the mohel is one who knows how to perform the bris
according to Halacha.

Interestingly enough, with my own children I had cases, where the
pediatrician stated that medically there was no reason NOT to
do the bris on the 8th day, YET the mohel would not do it because
according to the Shulchan Oruch, in this particular case,
it was considered dangerous, and one is obligated to wait until the
condition cleared.

I don't think anyone will argue with me when I say that,
unfortunately, medical science does not know everything.
The master architect of man, G-d, is certainly the most qualified
to write the User's Manual for the Human Being. And in the User's Manual,
he writes that this is dangerous. Whether, we understand it or not,
this will not lessen the danger factor.

In general, I believe that at least in some cases, traveling
immediately after a Bris is considered dangerous in Halacha. I believe
that was the reason the Jews did not circumcise themselves in the
desert, and that was the reason Moses did not circumcise his children
before the incident related in the beginning of Exodus. The complaint
against Moses, though, if I remember correctly, was that he should not
have been travelling with his children in the first place.

Hayim Hendeles
From: wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:46:17 GMT
Organization: BBN Systems and Technology, Inc.

In article <1992Jul27.011646.23307@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:
>
>I am no scholar, but I cannot believe the Torah teaches that we should
>care only about our own, and it is right and just to assume the worst
>of someone because of their ethnic group, and we should not be disturbed
>if others are suffering as long as they aren't Jews.
>

I believe a famous Mishnah (from Avot) quoting the great Hillel is relevant
here.  Just interpolate what he says about the individual to the
community.

  If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
  If I am only for myself, what am I?
  If not now, when?

--Ward
From: wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Jews?
Keywords: Bat Creek Stone, Cyrus Gordon
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:52:00 GMT
Organization: BBN Systems and Technology, Inc.

In article <1992Jul27.154629.22468@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> hmccullo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Huston McCulloch) writes:
>In article <srutt.711774567@beagle> srutt@boulder.Colorado.EDU (DNA Kaifeng),

[Much material about the possibility of Jewish settlement in the
New World long before Columbus deleted.]

I must say I am a bit cynical about this line of research.  A
religious group (the Mormons) holds as an article of faith that
Israelites made it by boat to the Americas in ancient times.  As I
understand it, Mormon scripture is largely about the exploits of these
ancient American Israelites and their descendants.  Mormons believe
this information was revealed to Joseph Smith in the 1800's through a
divine agent, in upstate New York.

Therefore this research has the flavor of ``proving'' Mormonism
``correct.''  Work by Mormon researchers on the topic of pre-Columbian
American Jews must be viewed very cautiously, since there is a bias
--- conscious or unconcious --- to reach one particular result.  Were
the principals involved in this ``Bat Stone Creek'' discovery Mormons?

--Ward
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ness@aecom.yu.edu (Seth Ness)
Subject: tanach directory on israel.nysernet
Reply-To: <ness@aecom.yu.edu>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:51:15 GMT

hello everybody,

i'm in charge of the tanach archives on israel.nysernet.org.
at the moment they contain the text of the tanach in hebrew and 
various programs to manipulate it;and divrei torah by rabbi riskin,
L'chaim, beis-chabad, byte of torah, rav yaacov haber and rav avraham 
alter. most of these are still in raw form but i'll soon have them organized.
The only divrei torah we have a fairly complete set of are rabbi riskin's.
If anyone can send me any of the above divrei torah and has archives
of past years worth of these divrei torah please contact me. i'd also like
to get Hamaayan archived so if anyone  knows if back issues are available
please contact me. Also any other divrei torah or related material
is welcome and if you know of any please contact me. Eventually the archives 
will be searcheable by keyword and other goodies. for now you're welcome to
explore.

-- 
 Seth L. Ness                        Ness Gadol Hayah Sham          
 Ness@aecom.yu.edu                                                  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:41:35 GMT

In article <29JUL199210362775@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
>In article <9207271357.AA08783@nysernet.ORG>, 
>           <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL> writes...
>
>>I would be very interested in why Michael Lax opposes the death penalty
>>based on Jewish values.
>
>****************
>
>Jewish sources refer to any Sanhedrin that condemned more
>than one man in 70 years to death as a "hanging court."
>
>For the most dramatic reading of reluctance to exercise
>the death sentence, read the stalling procedures outlined
>in great detail in the Chapter [4?] of TB Sanhedrin, Aherei
>Nigmar ha-Din [After the sentence has been passed].
>
>It is true that the tradition here refers to Jews only; but
>it also was written at a time when Jews probably only had
>limited powers to carry out legal executions.
>
>
>
>__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
>Jerusalem
>


Please note that this is a reluctance to do it, and a method of
making sure that the convict does indeed deserve it.  However,
there is no thought of actually cancelling the death penalty itself
as somehow being intrinsically "wrong".


A previous poster quoted the entire gemoroh which ends that those
who would have *never* implemented the death penalty would have
increased bloodshed in Yisrael.

We need to keep the proper perspective on this issue.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Canadian constitution?  (was Re: Musing about Karaites)
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:27:18 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University

In <9207261232.AA18984@relay1.UU.NET> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL
(Michael Shimshoni) writes:

>I am not sure  if Canada has a constitution...

Oy, vey!  Have you opened a contentious issue!

(Note for non-Canadians:  Canada has been embroiled in a seemingly
endless constitutional debate, with much bickering and quite a bit
of acrimony, since 1990, or was it since 1982, or has it been since
1867?)

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saroff@uf.msc.edu (Stephen Saroff)
Subject: Small victory
Reply-To: saroff@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:22:13 GMT


A Jew was standing in the check out line of his hardware store.

Another person was being waited on in another part of the store.  This
person was chatting loadly with a store clerk.  Complaining about his
girl friend, who was described as cheap.

Finally, the Jew hears, "She as tight as a Jew with a Penny."

He thinks a moments, reachs in his pocket, and pulls out a quarter.  Walks
up to the guy and hands it to him.

"What's that for," says the guy?

"Its a quarter from a Jew."



-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Stephen Saroff <saroff@msc.edu>                 o o  The Bear who Swims      
Minnesota Supercomputer Center                  (_)_____o      
1200 Washington Ave. S                       ~~~~(______)~~~~~~~~~~
Minneapolis, MN 5514 <612/626-1854>              oo    oo