From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Fantasies vs. Ethics
Date: 18 Aug 1992 21:55:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu



>In particular, read Mark 5 in which Jesus casts out the "Legion" 
>of demons and sends it/them into a nearby herd of swine, thereby 
>curing a "possessed" human individual of physical and mental disease.  
>The passage is significant, imho, because it clearly treats 
>souls/spirits/demons (aka minds) as extrinsic properties, rather than 
>intrinsic properties, of human and animal beings.  

>Given Mike's accusation that I've misrepresented his views on
>spirit-life, I'll let him explain how/why he believes in the literal 
>accuracy of this passage. 


Why wouldn't I believe in the literal accuracy of this passage?  I have
already said I believe in God and the Bible.  


>rl> You've been claiming that I'm making you look silly by commenting 
>rl> on your credulity re: ghosts, goblins, and so on.  Yet, you 
>rl> yourself continue to cite good and evil spirits as the primary 
>rl> determinants of ethical decisions.  

>jve> Er, no, you're *trying* to make Mike look silly.  I'm not so sure
>jve> you're being effective.  Although you are indeed making *someone* look
>jve> silly. ;-)

>No, I'm not trying to make Mike look silly.  I'm trying to understand
>how/why he has so little respect for the concept of human and animal
>rights.   


You mean you think I have little respect for YOUR concept of human and 
animal rights.  If you were to say you feel dogs should have the right
to vote and I disagreed, I guess you would say I have no respect for
animals rights.  This is only your perspective.


>rl> Incidently, you've made it clear that you don't respect the 
>rl> concept of animal rights, but you've been rather secretive in 
>rl> addressing my allegation that you don't have much respect for 
>rl> human rights either, but instead pay consistent hommage to 
>rl> "god's rights", as interpreted by Mike Linan.  If you have the 
>rl> courage to do so, please address the question that I've posed 
>rl> several times previously: 

>rl> If "god" were to command you to kill a group of men, women, and 
>rl> children, while refusing to explain his reasons, would you obey 
>rl> his command?  Or, would you disobey?

>jve> Does this serve any more purpose than your Space Invaders question?
>jve> What makes you think that when "God" tells Mike to kill these people
>jve> that "God" would not have a valid reason for doing so, such as these
>jve> "men, women, and children" are all ax-murderers, in which case Mike
>jve> might be justified in following "God's" orders?

>Perhaps.  On the other hand, let's suppose that these men, women, 
>and children were innocent human beings, and that "god" was 
>merely seeking to develop Mike Linan's faith, having decided that 
>the victims' lives were no longer productive in terms of his own 
>plans.  

>In such a case, would the killing be justifiable, given the 
>commandment of "god"?  Or conversely, would it be more accurate 
>to say that "god" and Mike would be guilty of violating the 
>rights of these innocent people and unjustly depriving them of 
>their lives?  


Justifiable or guilty in whose eyes?  Ultimately God is the one who 
decides what is just or who is guilty of evil doings.  Your judgments
of such actions will make no difference other than perhaps on what hap-
pens to the perpetrator's life here on earth.  Unless you do believe in
God I don't expect you to believe or understand this concept.  


>In both the "space invaders" question and the "god" question, I
>expect you and/or Mike to explain how/why it's reasonable to
>judge an action by examining the "status" of the perpetrator 
>rather than analyzing the practical consequences of the action
>on the affected individuals.  


You ask for evidence of a belief.  That is why it's called faith.  If
there were empirical facts to prove God existed and you were to do as
he commanded, how much *faith* would that take.  You see a man standing
in front of a train and when the train comes he is struck and killed. 
How much faith does it take to realize that if you stand where he stood
the train would do the same to you?  

Let me ask you a question.  If God manifested himself out of thin air in
front of you, performed a few other miracles, would you doubt him when he
said he was God and commanded you to do something you would otherwise view
as unethical?  Would you seek the help of a shrink?  Or would you finally
believe?


>Mike Linan wrote:
>ml> Oh and don't forget I waiting for you to prove that I told you I
>ml> believe in goblins.  

>rl> I'm waiting for you to explain the difference between demons and
>rl> goblins.


Please provide the proof.  While you are at it, why don't you show us 
where in the Bible it is said that we should believe in Goblins and 
Goddesses.  Even though I NEVER said these things to you which is what 
you lied about, I am curious if your "I was only assuming you believed
in such thing which are in the Bible" excuse has any merit.  


>jve> And I'm still waiting for you to show that Mike said he believes 
>jve> in *either* of them.  Chapter and verse, Russell.  That will 
>jve> clear it up (at least for me).  We all know that Mike never 
>jve> *explicitly* said he believes in either.  

>No, everyone doesn't know that, unless Mike sent everybody carbon 
>copies of the dozens of email messages that have passed back and 
>forth between us over the past few months.  In any case, Mike 
>can clear up the matter easily enough by simply telling us his 
>opinion.   


Then please provide the e-mail from me where I specifically stated I 
believe in Goblins, Goddesses, Demons and Ghosts.  No other e-mail than
that Russell.


>Meanwhile, please explain something to me about logic.  If the 
>bible says that demons exist, and a man tells us that he truly 
>believes everything the bible says, would it be possible for him 
>to disbelieve in the existence of demons?  


Why don't you explain to me about honesty.  If a man never specifically 
said to you what you say he did, would it be reasonable to say that you
were lying?

>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000


Mike Linan