From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Re: Degrees of racism (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (The Devil)
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:29:56 GMT

Glad I didn't have to wait eight days for your reply this time.

In article <1992Aug26.160212.2952@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>>Are we to assume, then, that YOUR experiences should be trivialized, because,
>>>after all, Asians weren't treated as badly as blacks or Indians?
>>
>>If I were to walk into soc.culture.african.american or a hypothetical
>>soc.culture.native.american right in the middle of a thread where a Black
>>or Native American person was talking about their encounters with racism, and
>>then try to brush off *their* experiences by saying I've encountered racism
>>too, then ***YES***, I most certainly *WOULD* expect my experiences to be
>>trivialized in that newsgroup.  And good for me!!  I'd look awfully stupid
>>trying to compare some of my troubles with theirs.
>
>So, why complain at all?

What the heck are you talking about?  This is soc.culture.ASIAN.AMERICAN!!
Talking about discrimination against AAs is a valid topic for this group.
It is *NOT* necessarily a valid topic in s.c.af.am, especially if it's being
used for the purpose of trying to downplay claims of racism from African
Americans there.

Why don't you create soc.culture.white.american for yourself so you can talk
about your problems in Japan or here?  Like I said, I think it's a good idea
for a new newsgroup.  I'll vote for it and leave you guys alone there.

>>>Pity you didn't do that before you responded previously.
>
>>When did I ever previously *DIS*agree with that statement of yours?
>
>You posted several responses previous to that one.

Lie #1.  Where did I ever say in those previous responses that "Mike Fester
belittled claims of Asian American discrimination?"  IN THOSE PREVIOUS
RESPONSES, I said nothing about whether or not you belittled claims of
AA discrimination.  I *did* agree with Andy and Dwight that the experi-
ences of White Americans in Japan very likely don't compare in every way
to that of an AA here.  Is that saying you belittled claims of AA
discrimination?  Really?

Please, produce evidence to the contrary.

>>I have, plenty of times.  I know I haven't gotten it as bad.  Darn right I
>>know it.  Happy now?  On the other hand, Mike, have you *EVER*, and I mean
>>even *ONCE*, in this newsgroup, ever made the point that you *haven't*
>>experienced as much racism as an Asian American person?  Ever done it?
>>Didn't think so.
>
>Then you should go back and read some old posts.

Such as???  Evidence, please.   (Classic Fester line)

>>For that matter, when's the last time any White person here ever admitted it?
>>Can you remember?  Boy, it's been a long time...  All we have is JJ trying to
>>compare it to the difference between 1.000000 and 1.000001.  Wow, that's a
>>really big admission...
>
>We also have many persons (such as your esteemed self) proclaiming that they
>somehow know the "white experience" but it is impossible for a white to really
>know the "Asian experience".

Lie #2.  Oh yes, I've said the latter.  But when have I *EVER* said the first
part of your sentence?  I've been saying on and on from Day 1 of my JJ
arguments that unless you've personally gone through it, YOU ARE *NOT* AN
EXPERT.  YOU DO NOT **FULLY** UNDERSTAND.  Geez, how many posts have I said
that?  I thought I sounded like a broken record by now on that issue.

Nice try, sport.  Produce evidence to the contrary.  Tell me *ONE TIME* I've
said Asian Americans are "experts" or "fully understand" the white experience.

>>by saying they're "overreacting" (or some other stupid comment).
>
>Unless they were white.

????  (Classic Fester line #2)

>>Got that, Mike?  I have ***NEVER***, ***EVER*** tried to brush off the racism
>>that African American or Native American people have said they've encountered
>>by saying, "Hey guys, I've had tough times too and my attitude is still better
>>than yours."  I have ***NEVER***, ***EVER***, not in any single newsgroup in
>>the entire net, made comments to any Black person talking about racism along
>
>See above.

See *my* ??? above.

You got a problem today, Mike?  Don't feel like arguing?  Throwing one-liners
'cause you've got no point to make?

>>it was because somebody wrongly reported your car was stolen; that's standard
>>police procedure in those kind of cases; I've suffered racism too and geez,
>>I'm more optimistic about it than you."  Sound familiar??
>
>Nope.

Another one-liner.

     <1992Aug14.155011.2853@island.COM>
     Some of us, Mr Quan, HAVE been on the receiving end [of discrimination],
     yet we still maintain "an optimistic view".

     <1992Aug18.160506.2844@island.COM>
     [Marcus Allen incident with the cops]
     Um, this is a misremembered incident. Someone reported Allen's car as
     stolen, not realizing he was using it at the time. The police stopped
     him for that reason. They did tell him to "get on the ground" while 
     hey checked his identity. they apologized, and Allen himself said he
     understood and no hard feelings, etc. 
 
     Now, I have yet to hear of anyone of ANY color being stopped in a "stolen 
     car" and being treated any better than that

BTW, Mike, I read in an _SI_ article a few years back that Marcus had to carry
a special paper in his Ferrari to show to cops just in case, so that they
wouldn't mistake him for a drug dealer.

I guess that's standard police procedure for white football players with
Ferraris, too, huh?  I'm sure Joe Montana probably has one in his glove
compartment himself.  NOT!

>>But ain't it funny how I haven't seen a single African American person come
>>into this newsgroup during this or previous threads and try to downplay
>>claims of racism by Asian American people here.  Gee, I wonder why...
>
>Probably posting to other newsgroups.

Fat chance that's the reason.  Have you forgotten white people also post to
other newsgroups, too?

>And BTW, you obviously have forgotten Mr D Jackson of Northwestern. He did
>rahter downplay Asian-American claims of racism.

Evidence please????  (Fester line #1 again)

>>>I played football, and I wrestled. Those guys wouldn't really care. The fact 
>>>that you're a tennis player means your complaint would be dismissed out-of-
>>>hand.  Tennis is not considered a "sport" by most of those people.
>>
>>Gee, thanks for proving my point for me.  You're right, the people who have
>>suffered worse "injury" don't particularly care to hear their injuries brushed
>>off by comparisons of lesser injury from people who haven't had it as bad as
>
>Then yo misunderstand. They don't consider you to be an athlete, really. Has
>nothing to do with injuries.

You know, there were football players on my high school tennis team.  You
sure you want to make a sweeping statement like that?

>>Tell me, if someone who had been in combat in real war talked to those
>>players, would they have listened?  Yep, really tough concept to understand.
>
>???

Oh, don't play dumb.  They listen to the combat vet because he's gone through
a tougher experience than even they.  They don't listen to the tennis player
because he hasn't.

Like I said, real tough concept to understand.

>>>Tell that to my wife, who couldn't get several apartments she wanted because
>>>she married a foriegner. We have yet to be denied anything here because of
>>>my wife's race.
>>
>>Is your wife white?  Read my line again.  "...the experiences of a *WHITE*
>>person *THERE* is not as "bad" as that of an *Asian American* *HERE*."
>>Your wife's experiences *THERE* doesn't satisfy that criteria, unless your
>>wife is white in Japan but Asian American here.
>
>Guess what? She's neither. 

Getting semantical, huh?  Can't argue the real issue today, Mike?

OK, I'll go slow for you.  Is..your..wife..white..in..Japan..but..Asian..here?

Does your wife live here?  Have residency status here?  Then she's Asian
American.

And as far as discrimination against AAs in this country goes, it makes
little difference to any redneck whether or not you're an "Asian Asian" or
an "Asian American."

>>BTW, I'm sure your wife will be pleased as punch to know you've just
>>dismissed any kind of racism she might ever have encountered here in
>>one sentence.
>
>Those are her feelings on the subject. 

Got a habit of speaking for her on things?

>>Don't forget, "*We* have yet to be denied..." is not the same as "*She* has
>>yet to be denied..."
>
>AS pointed out above, that was not true in Japan. And BTW, in this case, yes,
>it *IS* the same.

You keep ignoring the point that that is *NOT* the comparison I made above.
Compare the experience of a *WHITE* person in Japan to that of an *ASIAN*
(or Asian American, I don't care which) person here.

Your wife is not white in Japan or anywhere else.

>>>Also, a friend of mine, married to a white American now lives near his 
>>>parents in Kobe. He has been denied several apartments because his wife
>>>is white (and yes, he is a Japanese citizen).
>
>>Same thing!  Is your friend "white" in Japan but AA when he was here?
>
>?? He's Japanese. He's NOT Asian-American. Do you in fact read these things?

Oh, give up your tired semantical nit-picking!  Is..your..friend..white..in..
Japan..but..Asian..when..he..was..here?

>>Why don't you make the comparison I stated above?
>
>You mean, compare the experience of "halfs" in Japan and here?

No!!  Compare the experience of a white person in Japan to that of a "full"
Asian American here.  Are you playing dumb on purpose?

>>>>they experienced racism growing up, at least once in a while.  But the degree
>>>>to which they experienced probably was different.  And that matters.
>>>
>>>So why do people discount their experiences?
>>
>>Huh?  In the absense of any smarminess on their end, who discounts their
>>experiences?  When somebody not long ago posted that he grew up mostly in
>>the Bay Area and thus hasn't really seen what AAs outside there experience,
>>who discounted that?  It's only when someone in that situation tries to use
>>their own less hostile experience to try to make it seem that they're some
>>kind of better person for being more "optimistic" than others that you see
>>any "discounting" done.

Reply?

>>How did you discern "optimism" from her quote?  Saying there are a lot of
>>Asians and yucky poo, it's kind of strange and weird..."  That's "optimism"
>>in your book?
>>
>>What's your point about her, anyway?
>
>I had rather thought Tulsa would be considered a conservative area. Further,
>she doesn't seem to be bothered by being one of the few Asians in her area,
>and finds it "tacky" that there are so many in the BA.

How is that "optimism"?  And do we know from that one quote of hers how much
racism she's actually encountered there?  Does she get called names every day,
or is she treated well because of that "model minority" status?  Or because
all the white guys in Tulsa are hot for her.  :-)

I know what you're trying to say, but even if she is an example of optimism,
I never said *ALL* people who grew up in "conservative" areas are
"pessimistic."  I compared people like that to football players who have
been injured all over and still have nothing but love for their sport.

>>>Actually, some of the more strident remarks come from areas where there is a
>>>considerable Asian populace.
>
>>I would agree with that, BUT... I'd make a guess that the most strident stuff
>>you hear is from someone who grew up in a less tolerant area and who THEN
>>wound up in an area with a lot of Asians.
>
>Why don't you ask them?

Hmm.  I can't reach Hoyt Sze.  I have talked to some (most?) of the more
"strident" people here in e-mail.  I do ask.  I don't encounter too many
"strident" types over here (in Austin, I mean).  But when I get the chance,
I sure will ask where they grew up, what it was like.  I do that anyway.

Jim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american