From: Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Mic Oettinger)
Subject: Re: children as appendage
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:53:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.014300.15626@zooid.guild.org> goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves) writes:
>Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Michelle Oettinger) writes...
>MO> In article <1992Aug3.203528.28265@leland.Stanford.EDU> dkeisen@leland.Stanfo
>MO> DU (Dave Eisen) writes:
>MO> >
>MO> >No we aren't anti-father. Really. We are anti-"forced to be a father
>MO> >against my will." If you want to be a father, good for you. And if
>MO> >you are having problems convincing a court of that, you will get,
>MO> >at the very least, emotional support from us.
>
>MO> Are THESE the words of a man? Can I ask why you seem to think it's such a
>MO> great honor to be able to kill your own child just because you can't see it?
>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Do not condemn what he says, because of his sex.  If we did it to you, would
>you call us sexist?  At any rate...
>
>He is *not* asking for the right to "kill" anyone.  He, like many people who
>are "pro-women's choice" does not wish to be forced to parent a child whom
>he does not want.  We do *not* advocate "running off" once a child is born,
>but the right to be relieved of unwanted reponsibilities by informing the
>woman during the early months of pregnancy.  Since *she* is not required to
>have the child, the knowledge that the father does not want the child, should
>have some effect in her deliberations as to whether she still wants the baby.


There is a problem here that none of you men are taking the time to think
about. You are saying the man should have the right to refuse any
responsibility for the child before it is born. The problem with asking
the woman to choose between aborting the child or giving it up for
adoption, and keeping it and taking full responsibility in every way for
the child is that many women (myself included) could never kill their
child. You are asking women to possibly do something that is against their
morality or values or beliefs or religion or whatever else. You cannot
even ask a woman to make that decision, because it is something many many
women could never fathom. Killing a child or giving it up for adoption is
one of the most difficult and painful things a woman can do. It is not
something so easy to decide as "Oh my God, HE doesn't want the child, so I
better abort it or give it up never to see it again after it's birth. Be
reasonable! This is a human being you are asking a woman to give up
forever! You would not appreciate being put in that situation with your
own child, so don't be so cruel as to think you could have the power to
put a woman in that situation.


>If she *does* decide that she wants the baby, then it is *her* responsibility
>alone.  After all, it is she who has the sole decision as to whether she
>gets to force the father to take the responsibilities along with her.  This
>is *not* by any means fair or just.
>
>
>MO> Because you are being selfish and taking someone's life for the supposed
>MO> betterment of your own? My dear, if we all had the same attitude you do,
>MO> people would be killing their babies without a second thought and it would
>MO> become commonplace, would you like that? If half the babies or even more
>MO> conceived were killed off? Maybe there's a reason God made women to bear
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>MO> the children, maybe women are more prone by nature to be caring and WANT
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>MO> the child, regardless of the relinquished freedom and money.
>
>
>Over a million abortions a year speak rather loudly that you are *quite*
>incorrect.  I am not, however, saying that "men care more," but the silent
>sufferings of thousands of scorned fathers (myself included) are certainly
>speaking volumes as well...  ("Your silence speaks volumes" is an apt phrase
>here).
>
>---
>Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
>ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
>(416) 322-7876
>---
> * SLMR 2.1a * In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.

I never would go so far as to say ALL woman are as caring as I am. Nor
would I ever be so bold as to claim men are scum who couldn't care less. I
think woman who get abortions, no matter what the reason short of her life
being in jeopardy, are heartless, selfish people whom I could never
understand. There is always adoption if they cannot raise the child
themselves, and please do not try to tell me drug babies could not get
adopted. They are people too, and you do not have the authority to suggest
the value of your life is greater than any other's.

Michelle
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