From: tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode)
Subject: Holden numbers, powerlifting, and reality
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 00:26:29 GMT

 
OK, that's it--I've been reading t.o. semi-regularly again lately and
have come to the inescapable conclusion that Ted Holden is not a
powerlifter and, for that matter, don't seem to know anything to speak
of about powerlifters or powerlifting.  Now, I'll preface the following
remarks by saying that I make no claim to be an expert in the field and
that my information is probably out of date enough to have missed many
recent records in powerlifting.  Anyway, where was I?  Oh, yeah....
 
  1)  As long as you're going to use the "Holden number" argument, it's
      probably a good idea to get some of the numbers straight--Bill
      Kazmaier has benched 661 pounds in competition, not the 500 pounds
      that keeps being mentioned here.  Also, many people have squatted
      over 1000#, Lee Moran actually being the first to do so officially
      (though many others had done so unofficially prior to this) and
      Dr. Fred Hatfield has broken the world squat record on several
      occasions and is probably close to 1100# by now.  Granted, these
      numbers don't affect the results a great deal, but using accurate
      figures in your arguments can make them more effective.
 
  2)  It's important to remember that humans are not particularly
      designed for strength.  The human musculature and skeletal
      structure are a compromise optimized for the sort of life that
      humans and their ancestors have been living for millions of years
      and it seems safe to say that the proportion of human ancestors
      who were competitive powerlifters was quite small.
 
  3)  A quick look at a few competitive powerlifters should convince you
      that leverage and tendon attachments do matter--there are, for
      example, competitive powerlifters with 17" upper arms (Mike
      MacDonald comes to mind) who bench more than some competitive
      powerlifters with 24" upper arms because the former have better
      leverage.  (If this were not the case, we would expect that
      lifters with 24" arms would lift at least twice as much as lifters
      with 17" upper arms.)
 
  4)  The human body is not, by any stretch of the imagination, designed
      efficiently for performing full squats.  The leverage at the
      bottom of the squat is poor and quite a bit of effort is required
      for maintaining balance and control over a body not designed with
      this particular activity in mind.  Though I'm not anywhere near as
      strong as Bill Kazmaier, I think I can still use myself as an
      illustrative example.  For me, doing a full squat with 350 pounds
      is pretty good (told you I was a relative weakling); however, if I
      don't go down quite as far (tops of thighs above parallel), that
      number bumps up into the 500-600# range.  It seems fairly likely
      that Kazmaier could approach 2000# in a partial squat, and, while
      this wouldn't count in competition, it is probably a closer
      approximation to the range of motion involved in getting up.
 
      Now, remember what I said about balance a moment ago?  As you
      might imagine, a quadruped has a distinct advantage over a biped
      in this regard; to simulate this advantage, I switched to the leg
      press, an exercise very similar in range of motion and, as far as
      the muscles below the waist are concerned, nearly identical in the
      muscles used.  However, in the leg press, I have a machine keeping
      the weights steady for me--and, in this exercise, I can do 1350#
      for sets of 10-12 reps.  Kazmaier and other world-class
      powerlifters might well be able to do in excess of 3000# in this
      exercise.
 
These four points would suggest that, irrespective of any confusion
between brachiosaurids and diplodocid, the "Holden Number" system is off
by a factor of at least four and possibly quite a bit more.  Basing the
"Holden Number" on actual powerlifting facts instead of on the assumption
that more weight can be lifted in a full squat than by any other means
is sufficient to invalidate Holden's claim that dinosaurs would have
been unable to stand under the earth's present gravity.
 
Trygve   (However, despite the picture of a running brontosaurus (I know
          it's an apatosaurus now, but *I'm* not going to argue with the
          four-year-old artist) I saw on a refrigerator, it still seems
          unlikely that either brachiosaurids or diplodocids galloped.)