HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:12:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.081205.5985@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Here's what an actual poster from the rec.music.makers has to say.
>I'd strongly advise that you listen:
>
>>I've read Chip Salzenberg's arguments and I have to say I disagree.  I
>>am not very familiar with how the networks work.  That doesn't mean I
>>don't have an interest.  Quite frankly, if I wanted to know something
>>about the policies of reorganizing a bboard, I wouldn't even know where
>>to start looking for information.

Their system manager should probably try harder to ensure that the
users are exposed to some of the more critical postings in
news.announce.newusers.  If the system manager has already done so,
then it's too bad that this character isn't paying attention.

(Watch, now ... it's going to be someone on unix.amherst.edu. :-)

>>It's disappointing to hear that
>>people who evidently know more consider themselves superior instead of
>>consider themselves as a resource for those who could learn from them.
>
>That last sentence sums it up pretty well. Comments?

I already do consider myself to be such a resource.  When people
express an interest in learning, I'm more than happy to spend what
time I have educating them.

What I'm most curious about, in that above sentence, is that only a
few syllables before, this person claimed they wouldn't even know
where to start looking for information on how netnews works.  Now they
see a veritable slew of information sources on the network.  What
gives?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 21:06:46 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>And we wish you and Jay would consider it.
>I'll consider revoting rec.music.makers.synth right after we revote
>sci.aquaria, misc.activism.progressive, and rec.arts.manga.

*I'm* not against doing such things. Would you like to put forth
the RFD's?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    In a meadow, the King shot an arrow at a deer but missed.  "Bravo!" a
    Fool shouted. The King became angry and snapped "So! You're making fun
         of me, eh? I am going to punish the life out of you!"
     "My word of praise was not for His Excellency, but for the deer."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: K6K@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Kin W Koo)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean 
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 20:45:03 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Nov9.051726.21697@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> mmurali@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg writes:

> TAN GIM WEE (eng20009@nusunix1.nus.sg) wrote:
> : IMHO, NUS is not doing anything about this proposed new newsgroup
> : because the computer centre here has recently created about 10 local
> : newsgroups catering to the needs of the people in NUS.
> : group will probably be just another avenue for them to enjoy themselves.a
> : Maybe this is just like opening Pandora's Box.
> : 
> 
> That is very interesting to hear.
> How about telling us about these newsgroups?
> 

The groups are: nus.science, nus.announce, nus.comp.unix, nus.comp.software,
nus.comp.hardware. nus.comp.mac, nus.comp.lang, nus.comp.internet,
nus.comp.bitnet, nus.comp.ibmpx, nus.rec.sports, nus.rec.comics,
nus.rec.hobby, nus.rec.food, nus.personals, nus.test, and nus.biocomputing.

I don't see what they have to do with soc.culture.singapore, though.
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 10 Nov 1992 14:18:38 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <1992Nov9.102952.11970@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>Sigh.  Instead of "suspecting it was long" or saying "if there was no
>>summary", why not go back and look it up in the archives?
>
>Rich...most terminal lines are 23 lines long. Keeping in mind the headers,
>rec.music.synth isn't mentioned until line 21. There are at least two headers
>in a news message for an ADVANCED reader, more from a simple one. All you
>mention is "alt.*" groups until line 21. It's real easy to miss when you 
>consider that. 

   Rich, understand that Dave posts using a machine at JPL, one of
the last bastions of Sixties-style mainframe computing.  He may not
be aware of things like workstations, windowing systems, scalable
fonts, etc.  So cut him some slack.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:14:07 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Nov4.200644.8267@cs.hut.fi>, killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
> In <1992Nov4.182116.6695@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> >Huh? I don't understand you. If there was 1 less yes vote or 1 more no vote
> >it wouldn't have passed. 
> 
> That is true.  Also, if Bill Clinton would have won the election
> by one vote, would you say that he has no right to be president?

Yet another person confusing democracy with Usenet. 

Here's a hint Kalle, they are NOT the same. 

> If you want a greater margin, start a campaign to change the guidelines.

It's been discussed before as I recall, along with the possible removal
of "No" votes. The discussion died with no resolution after quite a bit
of smoke. C'est la Vie.

Dave decided to NOT honor the vote. That's his prerogative. What do you
care what he does with his system? 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:18:22 GMT

ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
>'rec.music.synth' implies that it's about synth music, not *making*
>synth music.  'rec.music.makers.synth' disambiguates that portion of it,
>making the group more focused (and placing it in peer with similar
>groups for other tools).

HOWEVER, now suppose we want a newsgroup for discussing piano/keyboard/organ
technique, styles of practicing, etc. What do we do now? 

"rec.music.makers.midi" is technologically more appropriate anyway. 

"rec.music.synth" worked. Why change it?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The penalty for laughing in a courtroom is six months in jail; if it were not 
for this penalty, the jury would never hear the evidence.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:27:05 GMT

In article <BxKsIC.CrE@exnet.co.uk> dhd@exnet.co.uk (Damon) writes:
> In article <1992Nov10.211028.16118@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>  
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> >killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
> >>So now you admit that you are using this discussion - which you KNEW
> >>would take place if you started it - as a way to make people vote
> >>your way, because they become frustrated and want to get rid of
> >>the discussion.
> >
> >Usually people vote out of spite (which is also vote fraud IMHO)  
against
> >the instigator. That'd be me. 
> 
> Oh, please!
> 
> I have *never* voted out of spite in a net.vote.  So why assume it is
> *usually* the case?  That sounds like paranoia and conspiracy theory to
> me.
> 
Read the sentence again. I think Dave was saying *why* people that vote  
out of spite *do*. Not that people *usually* do!
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:43:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>It's not elitist to know how it works, but it IS elitist to use that
>as an indicator as to whether someone should participate in a decision
>that affects them or not. 

Dave, please PAY ATTENTION.  NO ONE has written "those ignorant of the
procedure SHOULD NOT participate."  Rather, I and others have observed
that "those ignorant of the procedure CANNOT participate."

>There's just a matter of these guidelines that need to be changed...and
>that's exactly how I'm going to deal with it. 

Fine.  Just don't expect the change to be retroactive.

>The net as a whole did not vote. A small vocal minority of the net voted.

But it was the small vocal minority who _chose_ to involve themselves.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Group splits, killfiles...
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:00:51 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>>I simply cannot afford the time to read through ... news.announce.newgroups
>>>on a continual basis.
>>I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.  There isn't that much traffic in
>>n.a.newgroups.
>
>Well, YOU don't buy that...but why should your standard be the official
>"approved" standard for everybody?

Only if the majority of administrators consider that standard
reasonable -- which seems to be the case, judging by the dearth of
articles saying "I can't keep with n.a.newgroups, there's too much"
coming from administrators.

>Why can't she have her standard and that be OK with you?

It _is_ okay with me, as long as she's willing to live with the
results of her choice and not bug me about it in news.groups.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 20:33:45 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

I'll answer two of Ken's contentions in this article, since the answers are
much the same.

In article <1992Nov10.200318.8965@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>What they really did is to do something that you choose to interpret as choosing
>to ignore, even though they themselves deny any such thing.

In article <1992Nov10.200218.8888@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>This is begging the question; whether or not the vote was fair, etc. is
>exactly what is in dispute.

In both cases, the only ones disputing the issue are you, Dave Hayes, and a
bunch of folks who, by their own admission, deny knowing how things work on a
starship. The others' ignorance is curable; that leaves you and Dave on a
sinking ship, and your feet are getting awfully wet. Your repeated assertions
have done nothing to advance your cause.

The ones who prioritize reading RFDs and CFVs below regular traffic in their
newsgroup have chosen not to read the very messages that would warn them that
someone is proposing a change in their group.

The dispute over whether or not the vote was fair has reduced to the
discussion of subject lines - a very thin reed.

If Dave Hayes would simply give up, then his beloved group would be back
together again. He's too stubborn for that, though. I can't see why you jumped
into the argument, except possibly out of some kind of personal animosoty for
me or something.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: davet@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Dave Tutelman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs - Lincroft, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:39:29 GMT
Summary: I was fooled too

In article <1992Nov6.153902.2771@bradley.bradley.edu> dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>
>>The subject lines said "CFV: rec.music.makers.* groups". There was no 
>>indication of any correlation with the rec.music.synth groups. At the very
>>least, a revote should be held with this one subject separate from the rest
>>of the votes, with a clear and precise subject line so that ALL people
>>in rec.music.synth are made aware of this. 
>
>If that many people were genuinely misled by that heading, then maybe
>you've got some grounds for a complaint. 

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I had EXACTLY the same reaction,
to whit:  I saw an article about renaming that had NOTHING AT ALL to do with
any newsgroup I cared about, then an occasional followup and a CFV.  But
after the first one, it was obvious to me that I had no need to follow
the thread, so I didn't.

Had I realized what was ACTUALLY being proposed (i.e.- had the title been
sufficiently descriptive) I'd have voted an emphatic 'no'!

>But the only way to do anything
>about it would be to issue a formal RFD about it, and then CFV just like
>this vote was done.  However, how widespread that confusion was is quite
>open to debate.

Yeah, I understand that's what the rules say.  And we're "a nation of laws,
not men", right?  (Not sexist, I'm quoting...)  But that's only sensible
if we're talking about a conflict.  It appears to me that the only conflict
here is the authority of the folks who solicited comment and implement
the change.  In this case, it looks like a bunch of people are injured by
the application of the rule, and I haven't heard from anybody who'd be
helped.  In cases like that, if a rule is stupid, change it.  If a good
rule leads to stupid results, ignore the rule in this case.

My two cents.

Dave
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.os.linux,comp.os.mach,comp.os.minix,comp.os.bsd
From: Ian Jackson <iwj@cam-orl.co.uk>
Subject: CFV Update: comp.os.linux split - NO acknowledgements
Keywords: split, linux
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Olivetti Research Ltd
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:28:48 GMT
Summary: no more individual acknowledgements

Due to the outgoing mail flood causing problems at my site I regret
that I'm unable to send out any more individual acknowledgements.
Those people who have received them, lucky for you :-).

The rest of you will have to wait for the mass acknowledgement with
the 2nd CFV to see if your vote arrived correctly.

I shall continue to send out error messages for votes that my software
couldn't parse and which therefore weren't counted.

Ian Jackson.
-- 
Ian Jackson  iwj@cam-orl.co.uk ..!uknet!cam-orl!iwj  These opinions are my own.
Olivetti Research Ltd, Old Addenbrookes Site, Trumpington St, Cambridge, UK;
Home: 35 Molewood Close, Cambridge, CB4 3SR; +44 223 327029.     +44 223 343398
Xref: sparky news.groups:20613 rec.music.synth:17945
From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Distribution: world
Organization:  One of these days for sure
X-News: HERMES MMAIL 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
	<1992Nov4.182116.6695@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <7713@lib.tmc.edu>
	<1992Nov4.232744.9048@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov5.194718.4650@bradley.bradley.edu>
	<1992Nov6.000935.2031@jato.jpl.nasa.g
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 18:31:26 -0700

>dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>I would also like it if some way were made so that those out there on
>the BBS echos could vote their minds also. 

	I think it's also important that those reading news by FAX, via the
new Fax to news gateway should have a voting mechanism. Afgter all, it's
not fair. These peopple are completely disenfranchised the way tghe
current system is set up.
	Also, what about the people reading groups off CD Rom? By the time
these people read the CFV, the vote is over. This is patently unfair.
There should be some mechanism in place to allow retro active voting,
whenever a potential voter hears about a vote. This is the only way true
fairness in voting can be achieved.

-- 
 John Henders      " Only _my_ words are relevant to the issue " 
  T.K.O.O.C.            <1992May11.073237.14684@rotag.mi.org>
                kevin@rotag.mi.org(Kevin "I'm not a net cop" Darcy)
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: My experience
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:11:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: charnel.1dpc2fINNrc0
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu

I write:
>2a) Which moderator has not spoken up in this discussion?

Ooops, answer is Zero, now.  Consider this a gimmee.

As for your quip about "only people voting yes are eligible for
moderatorship", I question where you found that.  Please cite
references, dates and credentials.

-- 
San Francisco, n.:
	Marcel Proust editing an issue of Penthouse.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 20:01:32 GMT

In <1992Nov6.092146.20596@cs.hut.fi> killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
>In <1992Nov6.000935.2031@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>Some assumptions:
>1) The vote was held according to guidelines
>2) Some r.m.s readers didn't pay attention to CFV
>If we now hold a re-vote, we have a precedent that a vote held according
>to guidelines is not neccesarily valid.  This implies:
>1) Change the guidelines
>2) Toss the guidelines and let Usenet become Altnet
>If we change the guidelines, we still have the precedent AND the fact
>that if some readers in an affected group do not pay attention to CFV's
>(or whatever they will be called) the vote is invalid.

I think that the second 1) above does not necessarily mean that 
we would declare this vote invalid.  It *was* valid under the current
guidelines.  Changes to the guidelines are not applied retroactively
to all newsgroups are they?  I would favor a slight change to the
guidelines for future CFVs etc in order to help prevent this kind of
fracas from happening again.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
     Buy you books, and buy you books, and all you do is eat the covers...
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:20:40 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Nov10.214156.25752@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >You think all votes for all groups on the net are to be interested in?  
How  
> >much time DO you have on your hands?
> 
> You only have to read those that pops up in the groups you are reading.
> I have no problems with that, in fact I have so much spare proposal time 
> (it's reallly rare that I see RFDs or CFVs in my favourite groups) that
> I have subscribed to news.announce.newgroups.
> 

Point 1: That wasn't the question.

Point 2: Other people have said that I should read news.groups and/or  
news.announce.newgroup. Now you tell me I only have to read what's in the  
groups I'm reading. Which is it? Which is right? What do the guidelines  
say? (Hint: they don't).

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Nov10.200218.8888@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:16:44 GMT

Ken> == Ken Arromdee <arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> 

 Ken> This is begging the question; whether or not the vote was fair,
 Ken> etc. is exactly what is in dispute.

Hey, does that mean I can start screaming about the UNFAIR manga vote or
the UNFAIR rec.arts.poems.urdu vote (to use a more recent example) and
get it overturned, or at least get a revote?  Cool!

We need a new net.acronym: WFIR (Whine For Immediate Revote)
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:20859 news.admin.policy:239 rec.music.synth:18098