From: Malachi.Robertson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mark 7
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:46:04 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <Aug.27.02.56.02.1992.2404@athos.rutgers.edu> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>I read through Malachi Robertson's discussion, but I didn't see how 
>you disproved the statement "Thus he declared all foods clean" - the 
>point being made by Jesus was that defilement is from within the heart 
>of man and is not caused by the food one eats.  Mark emphasized this by 
>the above statement, which I quoted.   
>

I know I didn't disprove that defilement was not caused by the food we
eat.  That wasn't my point.  My point was to show that this text says
nothing about the Old Testament distinction between the clean and unclean
meats.  It deals with a practice at that time that was man-made.  It
formed a basis for Jesus to make two points.  One is not to esteem
man-made rules over God's.  The other was that defilement came from the
utterances of the heart.  Jesus' words didn't make unclean flesh foods
clean, but made "all the food" clean of the defilement.  Defilement and
uncleanliness are two separate notions.

>If we look at Peter's vision, where God said "don't declare anything
>unclean (or common) that I've called clean," we have to wonder where 
>this pronouncement was made, if this passage in the gospels was not 
>the place.  Remember the food Peter was commanded to eat included
>animals that were prohibited from the Law (Leviticus and Deuteronomy).
>

Peter's vision does not have him commanded to eat everything that was
before him.  He was just commanded to kill and eat.  The problem for Peter
was that the clean animals were in the presence of unclean animals.  As
such the clean animals were defiled (common).  God does NOT say to Peter
stop calling the unclean animals unclean.  God does say that he should
stop calling common what God has cleansed.  This may very well be a
reference to Jesus' actions described in Mark.  My only problem in
figuring out this vision is that I don't see where Peter learned that he
was not to call any man unclean.  In other words, how does this vision fit
into the ultimate message for Peter.

>   1 Tim 4:3   They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain
>      from certain foods, which God created to be received with
>      thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
>   1 Tim 4:4   FOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, and nothing is
>      to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
>   1 Tim 4:5   because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

This is a very puzzling text.  When I see so many indicators pointing to
the continuance of the food laws it is hard to just chuck them as
indicators over on group of verses.  From what I can tell the group
described is some group of ascetics.  My *guess* would be that they preach
these things as a method for getting closer to God.  There appear to be
indications elsewhere that people might have been doing stuff like this in
Pauls's day (possibly Romans 14).  The thing that stands out to me is the
qualification "nothing is to be rejected".  The question is what does it
me to receive something with thanksgiving?  Also, how does "it is
sanctified by God's word and by prayer" fit in?  

>   Col 2:16   Therefore do not let anyone judge you by WHAT YOU EAT
>      or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon
>      celebration or a Sabbath  day.
>   Col 2:17   These are a shadow of the things that were to come;
>      the reality, however, is found in Christ.
>   Col 2:21   "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
>   Col 2:22   These are all destined to perish with use, because they
>      are based on human commands and teachings.

This passage in context deals with a heretical group of ascetics at the
Colossian church.  I don't see how this text shows that the food laws are
gone.  

>Paul in these two passages understood the change of the law on food.
>

That is not apparent to me.

a seeker of truth,

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown
--
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