From: kish@titania.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Soul Questions Kish/Jim
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:10:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.083147.21618
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


+ BK: is a soul subject to impermanence ?  
+ 
+ JD: Perhaps "subject" in a sense--subject by choice, by an act of will, 
+ though not ultimately bound.
+ 
+ "Permanence":
+ 
+ That which remains, that which endures?  Yes.
+ Continuing in the same state without essential change?  No
+ Fixed (static, rigid)?  No.
+ Fixed (purpose, strength)?  Yes.
+ 

Can you really have it both ways ?  If there is essential-change going on, 
then is that-which-endures anything else but the result of conditions and 
causes ? If that-which-endures chooses to believe that it "exists" for 
anything but the most infinitesimal interval of time, then the universes 
which wake and sleep will become like dreams which can't be remembered,
instead of being things-as-they-are.

+ BK: How about cause and effect ?  
+ 
+ JD: The greater the spirit the more we are cause, and the less we are bound 
+ by surface effects (karma/form/limits).
+

I get the feeling from this and your comment below about evolution that 
you feel that the soul's purpose is to evolve into a god, to achieve godhood
(and beyond ?).  At least from the standpoint of Buddhist teachings (the few 
that I know a little about), existence in the god realm or attaining godhood 
is ultimately subject to impermanence; no act of volition can change this. To 
prefer cause over effect is just a way of saying that it is your desire to 
become a god.  And at least from a Buddhist perspective, it is a denial of
death and impermanence.

+ BK: Does a soul exist inherently, from its own side ?  
+ 
+ JD: As I take your meaning, yes.  But not completely "independent," as 
+ things are not separate but an interdependent-unity.  I think personality 
+ is a partial-manifest extension or facet of soul and soul unfolds through 
+ extension of itself as personality (body, emotion, intellect).

If, as you say here, that personality and soul exist as an "interdependent-
unity", then I can't resist extending this beyond soul/personality.  It seems
to me that *everything* exists as an interdependent-unity with *everything*
else. If this is so, then vortices and turbulence just come and go, and in the 
process, provide *part* of the environment for the formation of more vortices 
and turbulence.  To privilege any of these vortices as self-existing seems
to me to be a mistake.

+ BK: Is the statement "A soul is a dependent arising," divergent from your 
+ own point of view ?
+
+ JD: Perhaps not.  Soul needs/uses forms for evolution, but it is also a 
+ creator of forms and not dependent on any particular form in time and space.

Evolution towards what ? And for who ?  

	I can sense that you have thought a lot about this, and I doubt 
whether the view I presented here is new to you. If you are deeply convinced 
that souls are self-existent, then I think all we can do is agree to disagree.

+ JD: Two related thoughts:
+ 
+ "The perfection of outward loveliness is the soul shining through
+ its crystalline covering."  (Jane Porter)

Sorry, but for me, quotes like this tend to cause tooth decay.  I have found 
zazen a very effective way to floss.

+ JD:
+
+ "And within me, deep and deep, Universes wake and sleep."
+ 
+                                (Kenneth Morris)

I like this one better, to which I would only add: "not one, not two".

-Bill
-- 

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