From: rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:03:52 GMT
Organization: Princeton University

In article <19239@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#I gather from your comments that you don't have much experience using
#Glocks.  The standard Glock pull (mine is 7 pounds) refers to the force
#needed to trip the striker after reaching a fully cocked state; however,
#there is a considerable amount of travel needed before that point, at
#less force, to move from partially to fully cocked.  It is NOT AT ALL
#the same as nominally the same pull on a single-action (or DA/SA)
#semiautomatic pistol or revolver; it takes a deliberate action to pull
#a Glock trigger far enough to fire the weapon.  Subsequent shots can be
#made without releasing the trigger all the way forward, but I have never
#even come close (in shooting hundreds of magazine loads) to firing any
#shot accidentally through too much finger pressure.  I'm not saying that
#a ham-fisted utter klutz couldn't have a problem, or someone who knows
#nothing about safe handling of firearms, but under normal circumstances
#there is nothing unsafe about the lightness of a standard Glock trigger
#pull (I wish mine were somewhat lighter).

The Glocks I've used had pulls of ~5 lbs, from takeup to discharge. 
I've assumed this in my argument, although I didn't make that clear at
the time.  It is my understanding that newer Glocks, particularly those
issued to police departments, have slightly heavier trigger pulls.

Alright, my one gripe against the Glock was the fact that it would be
easier to AD when returning it to the holster, particularly an inside-the-
pant holster.  You may not even touch the trigger with your finger.
If, after a felony stop or other shooting incident, you need to return
your sidearm to the holster when the area is *not secure* (which is
practically always), you should be able to holster it cleanly with only
your gun hand *without looking* or at least without *concentrating* on 
performing that sole action.  I.e. it should be performed at a level
below conscious thought, since you have other things to worry about
(namely, other threats).  The standard Glock loses a slight margin of
safety to the heavy DA trigger in this respect.  I acknowledge that I
was hasty in lumping standard Glocks with cocked SA pistols (where the
trigger pull is shorter and the gun is already cocked beforehand)
represent an extreme of hazard, followed IMHO by the standard Glock.

#One simply does NOT reholster with the finger in the trigger guard.
#With the finger out of the trigger guard, holstering is NOT going to
#cause a Glock to fire, at least not with any appropriate holster I've
#ever seen.

I've seen a S&W snubbie "fire" (empty) from DA position when returned
to its inside-the-pant holster.  The finger was *off* the trigger and
the trigger caught on the hard lip of the body side of the top of the
holster.  And it had a respectable trigger pull.  I don't recall the
make of the holster; this was many years ago.  If this can happen with a
heavy (say, 10 lb) trigger, surely it makes sense that it's more
(perhaps just slightly more) likely with a lighter pull.  

Also, under extreme duress, one's training may fail him and he may
reholster his weapon with his finger on the trigger. While this can be
minimized by lengthy training until it becomes two levels beyond
conscious thought, it certainly isn't certain.   Everyone reacts
somewhat differently to the stress of a firefight.  

I'm not presumptuous enough to claim that *everyone* needs a safety on
their Glock; just that I don't feel comfortable enough with the system
unless the trigger pull is rather heavy.  Nor do I claim 
that this disadvantage (to me) outweighs its other superb advantages;
only that I see it as a potential disadvantage.  To ignore it completely
or dismiss it out of hand to me seems as irresponsible as driving
without water in your windshield washer system; sure, millions of people
may drive that way with no problems, but I don't want to be the one to
be that outlying data point since I've seen crashes in inclement 
weather that may have been averted if the driver had greater
visibility.  I think that adding an affirmative
frame-mounted safety to the standard Glock would add a small margin of
safety with no detractions from its tactical utility.  I believe the
original thread concerned "ideal" cases or "wish" guns. If I had bigger
hands, that Glock would be *THE* ideal gun in my eyes.

- Ryan                               rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
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