From: mhirsch@algorithms.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: women MAs and Model Mugging
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:35:57 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:56:01 GMT, osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) said:

Andy> In article <1992Sep14.222422.4656@morrow.stanford.edu> CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates) writes:
>Martial Arts and women and Model Mugging
>
>I have a theory about why most MAs don't work as well for women as
>they do for men. I would be interested in other peoples experiences
>that support or contradict this theory......
>
I knew some people were going to give her a hard time for this and I
tried to stay out of it, but I can't.

>Most men (not all) are very good at using full power/energy but lack control. 
>
>Most women are good at control but have serious social blocks on using power. 

Andy> 	I must disagree.  Most PEOPLE are not only poorly learned in the
Andy> 	application of physical power in combat, but also have very poor
Andy> 	control skills.  This male/female thing you have going here is
Andy> 	not holding up so well thus far.  When I see new students, they
Andy> 	are almost without exception ALL spazzes.  The exceptions to this
Andy> 	are more often males (contrary to your statement above) and sometimes
Andy> 	females, but most often, none of them move with any ability whatsoever.

I must agree with her.  True, (almost) every new person to an aikido
class (which is what I do, so I don't know about any other art) looks
clumsy next to someone who has trained for, say, a year.  The
exceptions tend to be people with dance training, people who do
aerobics, and people who are what I might call "finesse athletes" by
which I mean athletic people who are very coordinated and rely more on
balance and coordination than strength to succeed in sports.  The first
two classes are overwhelmingly female, the third I don't have any
estimate.  But overall, I would say that a much higher percentage of
women fit the categories than with men.

There is one big exception:  Almost all the women punch really
pathetically when starting, most of the men look half competent.  I
really think that has more to to with how boys are brought up vs.
girls than it does physique or innate ability.

Thus, I would guess that in a harder style like Karate which
emphasizes punching men would come out looking better.

Andy> 	Males are no better at power application per se than women.  They
Andy> 	just happen to have more of it (on the average) than women, so even
Andy> 	though they may be proportionally as inefficient, more will "get
Andy> 	through" so to speak.

I disagree.  As I said above, I think men tend to start out with a
better punch, and as Jennifer said, men have less trouble letting
loose and releasing large amounts of energy.  What MA instructors are
good at is teaching you to focus that energy and use it efficiently
(See below).

>They take MAs and are very promising beginners (they
>have good control). As they become intermediate students they get
>frustrated as they don't know how to add power to their techniques

Andy> 	That's because their instructors either don't know how to 
Andy> 	apply it themselves (most likely) or don't know how to
Andy> 	properly transmit their knowledge to otheres (less likely).

>Then the MA school leans
>harder and harder on the woman to 'bring her power out', this
>doesn't work and the woman quits in frustration sure that women
>just can't stand up to men, and the men all agree.

Andy> 	I'm sure this is the case sometimes, but give me a break; men
Andy> 	don't generally sit around conspiring as you make it  sound.

Give her one.  She never suggested that anyone was conspiring
anything.  She said it happens.  That "the men all agree" isn't
because there is a conspiracy against women in the dojo, but because
the confirms a societal prejudice.  When a stereotype is a simple
explanation who needs to look any farther?  It's easier than looking
for the root cause.

>Model Mugging teaches women to release their power. 

Andy> 	I would bet dollars to donuts that they do not do this properly.

Who said anything about "properly"?  If you don't release it you can't
be proper at all, can you?  MM is great at learning to release it.  It
is not the place to learn to punch, kick, etc "properly"?  But even
doing it wrong with a lot of energy is a hell of a lot better than
doing is weakly, rightly or wrongly.

This was mentioned on an earlier post: They don't waste time teaching
how to make a fist, so they do palm-heel strikes instead.

Andy> 	I've been around a while and can say that the vast majority of
Andy> 	teachers I have seen do not know the first thing about proper
Andy> 	and efficient transmission of power, sad to say.  Go feel your
Andy> 	sensei's arm when s/he prepares to strike, and come back and tell
Andy> 	me what you felt.  It'll probably tell me all I need to know.

Again, MM doesn't teach "proper and effiecient" power.  Just power.
And (part of) Jennifer's point was that this is better than no power.


--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771