HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Vlad Tepes, a defense
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 00:45:42 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Sep4.195514.7700@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> jhugart@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Jacob Hugart) writes:
>christ@crash.cts.com (Chris Trichel) writes:
>>rom the rumanian area... Vlad Tepes (tep-esh) actually cultivated the rumor
>>that he was a vampire to strike fear into his enemies and the people he
>>reigned over.  and the actual accounts of his death were never verified (not
>>all that suspec though becaue who kept records back then?)
>Ah, Vlad.  One of Europes nastiest despots.  Supposedly the model for Count
>Dracula in the original book.  But not really the source for all the vampire
>stories.

I want to defend, yes, defend Vlad Tepes. He wasn't that despotic as people
continually play him up to be. Oh, sure, I admit the given facts- he did
drink blood, and didn't get the title 'Vlad the Impaler' because he liked
shish-ka-bob :) but he was mostly just a product of his times- the middle
15th century. What with Europe just recovering from the ravages of the Black
Plague, France and England beating each other up for 100 years, the Germans
(Hapsbugs) trying to dominate the interior and the final pressure (to which
that entire area finally fell), the Turkish Ottoman Empire (to which Tepes
and Rumania fell in the late 1460's).

Tepes and his methods were no worse than those around him, just much more
memorable. :)

r.
ps- I've got a more 'personal' stake (as it were :)...deep in the heart of
the Transylvanian alps- south of the town Sibiu, is 'Rosul Pass'..my last
name (of course, else why would I mention it :)
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: fangs@leland.Stanford.EDU (John Wesley Lewellen IV)
Subject: Re: Killing your neighborhood vampire
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 18:04:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.060130.9077@leland.Stanford.EDU> shibe@leland.Stanford.EDU (Ye Olde Kinge Tafur) writes:
>	I'd be interested in seeing a list of all the reputed methods of
>killing vampires as well.  The ones I've read on the net so far:
>
>Stake through the heart.
>Exposure to direct sunlight.
>Complete immersion in running water.

I've never heard the one about complete immersion in running water;  how
about:

Burning
Decapitation
Having another vampire suck them dry.

- JWL IV


Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: mwnorman@bnr.ca (Michael Norman)
Subject: Re: Vampire books...
Keywords: a few thoughts on vampire fiction I've read
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:24:09 GMT

Finally, someone mentioned the BEST vampire writer I've seen in a
long time: Nancy Collins (_Sunglasses_After_Dark_,_In_the_Blood_,
_Tempter_).  She creates a fantastic world for her characters
(memorable scene: her vampire, Sonja Blue, corrupting a devil 
with the ground-up skull of Joseph Mengele which the devil snorts 
just like cocaine!!)

I've read the whole Saberhagen 'Dracula-as-a-good-guy' series. It
was cute for the first few books, then it dragged a little. Vlad
was too 'politically correct' in his attitude towards women, honour,
conquest/battle, etc. 

In Barbara Hambly's _Those_Who_Hunt_the_Night_, the older vampires 
were NOT happy.  It is no fun living through too much history, too 
much change, etc.  The vampires in her book seemed to have only so 
much adaptability, then had problems (which seems reasonable - I
wouldn't like to have to keep re-learning my own language, English,
from Old English, Middle English, modern English, etc every few
decades).

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's _Chronicles_of_Saint_Germaine_ is also
very good fiction (a little too historical for my tastes, but it
doesn't interfere which the characters).  Her vampire still tries
to remain in contact with humanity (attempting to retain his own
questionable humanity?).  Very good stuff ...

The book, _I_Vampire_ (by Michael Romkey, btw) was a little too
goody-goody.  A new vapire, David, progresses from a burnt-out
cocaine-snorting corporate lawyer yuppie to a 'defender-from-all-evil'
type in a matter of months.  I didn't really get a sense of exactly
how this guy built up so much character in such a short time!

Patricia Elrod has created a vampire series of 'penny-dreadfuls'
(short and sweet, fast paced, etc) in which her main protagonist 
is a new vampire who used to be a reporter.  He has just moved to
Chicago in the 1940's and runs afowl of the mob.  He is killed, but
comes back to 'life' and hunts down his killer.  Sortof 'Sam Spade,
whadaya-want kinda vampire'!

Anyone got any other book titles? I just love this type of fiction!

------------
Mike Norman,c/o Bell-Northern Research 
P.O. Box 3511 Station 'C' Ottawa 
Ontario Canada K1Y 4H7 M/S 115      Internet: mwnorman@bnr.ca
tel: (613) 763-7717 (FAX:613-763-7742) 
"Hasta la vista, Baby!" A. Schwarzenegger
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 15:07:04 EDT
From: <CMH114@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
Subject: Re: Vlad Tepes

The thing about Vlad Tepes of Wallachia is that most of what we have of him is
from his enemies. We can't be perfectly sure of the sources. Vlad was largely
demonized by German pamphleteers enraged at his depredations among the Saxon
enclaves of Transylvania.
 Really, if all the stories about the Impaler are true, it only makes him the
wildest and nastiest of a really foul group of contemporary monsters. Caesare
Borgia who butchered and betrayed his way through the Papal States, Louis XI
the Spider King of France, partial to hanging small boys in trees for entertain
ment purposes, Mehmet II the Conquerer, almost as partial to impalement as Vlad
, Henry V Cutthroat (yes, that Henry V), Richard III (although a minor villain
at worst)... etc.etc. Political morality was breaking down in Europe at that
period, and there was a Machiavellian despot under every bush.

Mitch                Quest Labs: Making the World a Better Place to
Quest Laboratories                D*O*M*I*N*A*T*E
Terraforming Division
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: ueh@pool.info.sunyit.edu (Eric Hausgaard)
Subject: Re: Fiction vampire list, version 1.0
Organization: State University of New York -- Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:00:33 GMT

In article <BuDG1t.E46@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> kklai@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Curtis D) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.232625.3990@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:
>>
>>Patricia Elrod
>
>P.N. Elrod
>	BloodList
>	Blood Circle
>        ??? (this one escapes me at the moment)
>	Art in the Blood
>	Fire in the Blood
>	??? (the new one)
        #6 => Blood on the Water 
>
>>Anne Rice
>>   (The Vampire Chronicles)
>>   Interview With The Vampire
>>   The Vampire Lestat
>>   Queen of The Damned
>   	her new one -- The Thief of Bodies (????)
>
       Tales of the Body Thief  =====> Due out for Howleen!! 

>John Steakley
>	Vampire$
>
>

-- 
  You don't really believe in humans, DO you?? 
   "The closer to the solution, The more problems occur"   
   It is Eleven O'Clock....Do you know what Time it is??    
    All Flames/E-mail to ueh@sunyit.edu until I graduate.... 
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: shiv@bnr.ca (Shiv Naimpally)
Subject: Re: Movie List
Reply-To: shiv@bnr.ca (Shiv Naimpally)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 19:12:18 GMT

Frank Langella and Jack Palance both made wonderful Draculas.
Lets not forget female dracs in movies: Vamp (Grace Jones)
and the more recent Def By Temptation.

There was also Lifeforce starring Steve Railsbach in which big breasted
alien vampires come to Earth.
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Subject: Re: Vlad Tepes, a defense
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 03:56:41 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <Bu63zJ.4q5@me.utoronto.ca> steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) writes:
>>And in regards to the Spaniards, I don't know where or why you don't consider
>>eliminating an >entire< civilization as being 'out of the ordinary'.....
>Back then it wasn't.  Simply slaughtering your "enemy" and raping its women
>were common in the Dark/Middle Ages.  From that perspective, what Spain did
>was no worse than what their neighbours were doing (i.e. avoid foisting

And that brings us to the point I've been trying to make: What Vlad Tepes did
was no more 'out of the ordinary' than what the Spainish, French, Turks, etc.
and their leaders did- and from the perspective of that period, Tepes actions
were simply common-place 'horrifics'. 

r.
From: twells@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Tabor J. Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
Subject: Re: Vampire books...
Date: 12 Sep 92 02:48:23 GMT

drakonar@cs.montana.edu (Charles L. Stewart III) writes:

>In article <1992Sep6.050545.24107@cs.mcgill.ca> zippy@cs.mcgill.ca (Fotis XIPOLITAKIS) writes:
>>	I recently finished reading the "Vampire chronicles" by Anne
>>	Rice and was severly impressed! Does anyone have the name of
>>	anyother good vampire series?

>Although they haven't written a series yet, Mercedes Lackey and Barbara
>Hambly have each written at least one rather good vampire-based novel.
>Also, Fred Saberhagen has written about six books in a series involving 
>his version of Dracula and friends.

Dan Simmons has a new book out titled "Children of the Night" which is 
excellent IMHO. It has quite a bit of historical info on Vlad the Impaler
and provides a decent rather credible (albeit fictional, of course) hypothesis
for Vampirism. I highly recommend it.

	Tabor Wells

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Tabor Wells	twells@rigel.cs.pdx.edu|"All those moments will be lost in time|
|       #include <disclaimer.h>	       | like tears in rain. Time to die."     |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas)
Subject: Just a test (all apologies to literate vamp[iy]res)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:15:30 GMT

   Hi guys,
      I have trouble with my rn program so I thought I'd try
   a test. Please don't come & bite me for this!

      Hubert.

Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: manz@ee.ualberta.ca (Brett {Druid Queen} Manz)
Subject: Re: Vamp Movies
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 06:37:34 GMT

In <Bu4xyt.BFz@wpi.WPI.EDU> mtspace@wpi.WPI.EDU (The Lost One) writes:


>	Now we mustn't forget "The Hunger".  Decent movie and can't beat the
>soundtrack - anything with Bauhaus can't be too bad ;)

>Matt.
>----------------

Quite!  But the book (by Whitley Strieber) was much better.
-- 
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 My opinions are my own.         |  You can't be proud of who you are
 The truth belongs to everyone.  |  if you're ashamed of what you are.
 Civil Rights Are For Queers!    |  Cruise Men, Not Missiles! - anon
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: michaelc@oz.plymouth.edu (Mike Clark)
Subject: Newbie Question
Reply-To: michaelc@oz.plymouth.edu (Mike Clark)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 01:16:27 GMT

I recently wrote a piece of erotica as a favor to someone and it was
to deal with vampire Fetishism....Well, I had never heard of such a
thing, however with some research I was able to create something that
I heard was pretty good..>Does anyone have any insite into this
Vampire Fetishism thing they could share with a newbie??

Mike
-- 
Mike Clark    *  Ok, just relax, you may feel a little pinch here....
From: moon!cyberden!jwlhyfer@well.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
Subject: Excerpt from "Theosomorphia, Danse Vampyresque"
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 23:59:22 PDT
Organization: Indescribable Creations

In the dark
I am waiting for you
Poised, Like a knife
Ready to strike
Whispering...Breathing
Knowing your name

In the light
You are waiting for me
Your question lingers
In the air between us
In the grey

In the dark
I have loved you forever
and love you 
forever

Your skin is humanly white
And mine is grey
The salt fills my mouth with greed
My soul with lust
As you sigh
In the dust

My head is spinning
And the telescopic image flickers
Brighter and brighter

My heart beats faster
Yours slower
As you sigh
And turn to sleep
Your tangled hair resting on my cheek

My skin is pink
And yours is grey
Sleep..forever
Love..forever
I love you
Forever
In sorrow and in pain.

                  c.1987 by The Wake World and J. de Winter


__________________________________________________________________________
   |       /         |\
   | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N       [ moon!cyberden!jwlhyfer@well.sf.ca.us ]
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: cgc2646@usl.edu (Cech Claude G)
Subject: Re: PENTOGRAMS GOOD OR BAD?
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:58:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep08.063702.13296@bnr.ca> bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash) writes:
>In article <Bu55KI.Bx2@mishima.mn.org>, tomg@mishima.mn.org (Thomas
>Greenwalt) writes:
>|>bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash) writes:
>|>>
>|>> > P.S.  Of all the anti-vampire devices, the wooden stake 
>|>>       through the heart is the best.  Works on all of them.
>|>
>|>Actually thats not true.  There is the japanese creature known as a
>|>gaki that while not a vampire in the central european fictional vampire
>|>sense is generally incorperal, which makes it hard to pound a stake
>|>through it.  Also there is a chinese vampire which is an energy
>|>vampire and also incorperal.
>|>-- 
>|>Thomas S. Greenwalt (Tom-Too)                                  (612)866-1344
>|>7300 Nicollet Ave. S, Mpls, MN 55423                     tomg@mishima.mn.org 
>|>-------------- Death: SEE! I HAVE TIME! AT LAST I HAVE TIME! ---------------
>|>--- Alfred: And now that you have it, what are you going to do with it? ----
>               
>I was mainly refering to eastern European vampires (ala Anne Rice).
>(I was also refering to mortals that just like blood : ^ )
>
>Brian /-|-\

Actually, the best defense is to cut off the head, and burn the body.  There's
an interesting discussion of this in Montague Summers' books, not to mention
other books on the vampire legends.  In fact, in some legends, pounding a
stake in in more than one blow will _not_ work.
			- Claude

Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Subject: Re: Being made...
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:59:04 GMT

In article <g1tnw8j.catcher@netcom.com> catcher@netcom.com (Paul W. Francisco) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.131036.17282@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kmoore@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Kyle E Moore) writes:
>>     Just a sidenote... I found it amusing in Stoker's book, and in so many 
>>other interpretations, that it was necessary to use the *Christian* emblems of
>>the Cross and the Host to ward off the evil spirit.  What if the guy was 
>>Jewish?
>
>A number of years ago when I was reading comic books there was a story
>in the X-Men involving Dracula.  He was at one point coming after Kitty
>Pryde, who was a Jewish member of the X-Men.  She knew he'd be coming
>(I don't remember how she knew) and prepared herself with crosses.  When
>Dracula first saw the cross he backed off, due to reflex, but then he
>realized that he had no belief in it, rendering it ineffectual.  He then
>grabbed her by the neck and screamed in pain.  She was wearing a Star
>of David necklace, which burned his hand.
>
[stuff deleted about what a non-popular religious person should do?]
>Paul W. Francisco        	    In the shadow an angel cries...

	Well, I don't know how to answer your question without exploring
the entire nature of the vampire, but I would like to say that there
was a very entertaining comic series I think from the 70' about
Dracula.  It may have been Marvel.  Anyway, I remember some things
about bizarre undead children and wives and whatnot.  There was a group
hunting him down, of mortals as well.


Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman)
Subject: Re: Vlad Tepes, a defense
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:34:17 GMT

blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.) writes:

>In article <Bu39KI.7vJ@me.utoronto.ca> steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman) writes:
>>blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.) writes:
>>>Tepes and his methods were no worse than those around him, just much more
>>>memorable. :)
>>While Vlad was probably no worse than, say, Caligula, apparently he was a
>>bit atypical for his times.  Colin Wilson, in "A Criminal History of
>>Mankind" (great book, btw), describes Vlad as "one of the most appalling
>>monsters in history, deriving tremendous pleasure (undoubtedly sexual) from 
>>watching people die slowly."  

>As bad as the French and English beating on each other for 100 years? As bad as the
>Spaniards, who decided that because they discovered the New World they could do what
>they wanted with it, depsite the fact that their was already people living there? As
>bad as the Plague that ravished Europe only a few decades before? As bad as the Turkish
>Ottoman Empire- who ran roughshod over everything in their way in the name of Religion?

>No- I'm not saying he was a Decent Kind-hearted Leader- but he was a product of his times-
>I'll stick by that assesment.
>r.

In your original post (see above), you argue that Tepes and *methods* were
probably no worse than his contemporaries; the list above says nothing 
about methods, only quantity and duration.  From our perspective today,
most of the above mass murders (let's dismiss natural disasters such as
plagues, ok?) were simply brutal.  Women were raped probably at a rate
which makes today's stats look cheerful (no flames pls), and decapitation
was commonplace (as it was in revolutionary France).  Genocide was common,
and religious persecution and torture were the norms.

BUT, Vlad's methods and attitudes seem to indicate that he was a little
more than the average plunderer.  The following statement, again from
Wilson, is particularly telling:

"When he was imprisoned in Hungary for twelve years, and unable to satisfy
his taste for torture of prisoners, he tortured animals."

As you may or may not know, torturing animals is one of the key indicators
of a serial killer (or killer-in-waiting), and indicates sociopathic (i.e.
outside the "norms" of society) behaviour (granted thay this key indicator
has been defined relative to our current "norms", but I still think it is
an interesting detail).  While the Spaniards may have made the politically
incorrect expansionist move (flames to /dev/null), there doesn't seem to 
be a record of them doing anything out of the ordinary (which, again, 
to our more aesthetic tastes were decidedly *not* ordinary).

BTW, please limit your lines to 80 chars or less; anything more is painful
to read.
--
Dave!
--
Dave!
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: drakonar@cs.montana.edu (Charles L. Stewart III)
Subject: Re: We need a list of Vamp[iy]re Movies
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:31:39 GMT


Yah, keep 'em coming.  Getting a good list.  I will post the final list after
a couple weeks.  

-- 
      ---=>   Charles Stewart (aka Scott) : drakonar@cs.montana.edu   <=---
	          "Oh oh.  Looks like we need another Timmie!"
			   For Dinosaurs fans only.
		
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: PENTOGRAMS GOOD OR BAD?
Keywords: good or evil?
Reply-To: bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: alt
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 06:11:33 GMT

In article <x_nnz7j@lynx.unm.edu>, haro@carina.unm.edu (    KANEDA) writes:
|>HOLA AMIGOS!
Hola, compadre.
|>
|>	I've got a question, are five star pentograms good or evil?
|>I'm totally zonked on the subject.  Ok, like in the move WORLOCK (is 
|>that spelled right), there was a pentogram on the door of his first
prison, and
|>then that old dude painted one on his barn?  Does it keep away witches?
|>Also, in AN AMERICAN WEARWOLF IN LONDON, there was one in that bar. What was
|>with that.  
|>
|>Now, why is it that Devil Dudes like in the First Power and those other
|>Saitain Worshoping guys use it as there symbol?
|>
|>So is the five star pentogram a protection device, or a havock causing
device?
|>And can it be used on Vampyers?

To answer all of your questions, yes.  The pentagram is good AND evil
depending on how it is presented.  If you look carefully, you would 
notice that the evil pentagrams are shown upside-down (with the "center
point" facing down) and the good ones look like normal stars (point up).
The pentagram (good) was a pagan symbol of good luck and magic.
Satanic symbols are "good" symbols upside-down (eg. inverted cross).
The satanic pentagram looks like a goat-head, which leads to references
to a connection between satan and goats (I know it sounds silly, but
satanists are not the world's brightest people).

(for the clueless out there...2 horns, 2 ears, and a beard)

|>
|>VERY CURIOUS
|>RICK
|>

Curiosity is the path to wisdom

Brian /-|-\
From: moon!cyberden!jwlhyfer@well.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
Subject: The idea behind alt.vampyres
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 23:45:14 PDT
Organization: Indescribable Creations

My greetings to everyone who has been posting madly on Alt.Vampyres..This 
newsgroup was proposed by me, and I just thought you all might be 
interested in my ideas behind it and what potential use I saw for it.
Basically you are all posting many items of interesty and having many 
wonderful and interesting discussions, so this is not an indictment..

I believe that the vampyre myth in our culture and the prevelance of this 
myth in popular culture and fiction speaks to a deeper part of 
ourselves.Perhaps this myth is a part of the Collective unconscious, or 
the darker places in a spiritual world..

This is an opportunity for us exchange information,post short stories and 
poetry,list organizations and societies,discuss current 
fiction,movies,and articles,and find like minded individuals in the world 
who are fascinated,obsessed,or enchanted by the world of the vampyre..

There are a multitude of books written on the subject..many 
organizations,many films(not all of them of merit,but interesting 
nonetheless),art,poetry, and individuals who add their spark to the 
flame..

I welcome all of you to this intriguing and magickal world.....

           I invite you to embrace the darkness...


__________________________________________________________________________
   |       /         |\
   | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N       [ moon!cyberden!jwlhyfer@well.sf.ca.us ]
Newsgroups: alt.vampyres
From: hopkins@agora.rain.com (Scott Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Fiction vampire list, version 1.0
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:36:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.232625.3990@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:
>For corrections and additions, either post here, where I should see it, or
>mail me at aaron@space.ualberta.ca.  Thank you for your attention, and I hope I
>can help make alt.vampyres a more organized environment for you.  (Do we have
>an FAQ yet?)
>
>Bram Stoker
>   Dracula
>
Also, The Lair of The White Worm.

		-Casey
		hopkins@agora.rain.com


Newsgroups: alt.vampyres