HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 20:08:10 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<SYNTH.92Jul23215930@deepthought.unm.edu>
	<1992Jul24.164751.18550@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
	<1992Jul27.045208.219642@cs.cmu.edu>


garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:

Susan> ... but I am still at a loss as to the
Susan> reasons for fantasizing that one is raping another person.
Susan> When people say they fantasize about raping someone, are they
Susan> referring to a nonviolent scene such as Rolfe described
Susan> earlier, or something very different?

Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most
men visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of
whoever is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal.  (And doesn't
this also describe the "date rape" scenario as well?)  The image of
the woman here is of neither consenting nor objecting, but of just
being a receptacle for sex.

Susan> When I learned that the thing that raped me had
Susan> cancer, I imagined going to the prison and torturing him now
Susan> that he was helpless.  These fantasies alarmed me in that they
Susan> were so violent.  I got some help.
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What were you told about your fantasy?  Were you told that it was
abnormal?


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"Be good to your friends, or else they may develop psychokinetic abilities
 and destroy Tokyo."  -- 6
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dkmiller@unixg.ubc.ca (Derek K. Miller)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:40:57 GMT

I have noticed in scanning this forum for the past month and a bit
that it has, far more than average, a preponderance to lead to flame
wars or, at the very least, extremely biting comments running back
and forth. While this may be fine to a point, it does tend to stifle
any kind of dissenting opinion.

Of course sexual assault is one of the most sensitive and personal 
topics possible, but we should all remember that despite all generalities,
each case and type of assault is different and requires different kinds
of analysis.

I'll put my flame suit on now.

      :=:=> Derek K. Miller                 dkmiller@unixg.ubc.ca
      Researcher, Alma Mater Society        thegrodd@tz.ucs.sfu.ca
      University of British Columbia, Canada

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 15:17:00 GMT

In article <SCG.92Jul29084550@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:
>dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>
>>The biggest difference I can think of is a woman can fulfill her
>>sexual fantasies any time she wants. Men must wait for the woman to
>>want to fulfill hers before they can fulfill theirs. 
>
>Doesn't it generally take two (or more) to fulfill a sexual fantasy?
>How it is any different for women?  A woman needs a willing partner
>(male or female), just as a man does.

I bet every hetero/bi woman who read that wondered just how she could
get Tom Cruise to fulfull her fantasy.

>By the way, some of my sexual fantasies do not involve women in any
>way.  Some require both men and women.  Please be careful not to shove
>'sexual fantasies' into the heterosexual one-on-one mold.

Heterosexism in action.  "I'm straight, so everyone is."  And then
straights wonder why lesbigay people see the need to point out that
we're not straight.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Question for Scott
Date: 25 Jul 92 13:23:29 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SCG.92Jul24192917@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:
> 
> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> 
>>I am glad that you agree with me that there are a plethora of reasons
>>to not report a rape.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are.  What bothers me is that you don't seem to
> consider this to be a problem.

No, it is a problem. When it comes to the homosexual issues and stuff like
that, it is not relevant to me. My sink of dirty dishes is. Further, if I were
raped by a male, rather than fight a losing battle to modify society, I would 
spend far less time and energy to correct the situation myself.

And, I would be guaranteeing that no one would ever suffer from the same person
again.

Legal? Not even. Practical? Ask God. My decisions? Bingo.

DC
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 17:03:52 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:

>> If you only fantasize and experience sex with members of the opposite
>> sex, you are heterosexual. If you only experience and fantasize about
>> members of the same sex, you are homosexual.  Everything else is just a
>> bi. 
>
> By that definition, probably just about everybody is bi, then. 
>
> DC, ever hear of the Kinsey scale? 

Kinsey's research revealed that the vast majority of people are bisexual,
if you take "bisexual" to mean "not 100% heterosexual or
100% homosexual on the Kinsey scale".

(What this has to do with talk.rape anymore eludes me.)

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:32:53 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SCG.92Jul29180042@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:

> 
>>No, we just wonder why every one of our statements which do not
>>include all sub-categories of possible alternative lifestyle
>>variances get slammed by gays.  Jesus Christ, I left out the people
>>who fantasize about porking dogs and horses. Why aren't you also
>>standing up for THEIR rights to be included in each and every
>>conversation???
> 
> Please note, dear, that I am straight.  I have *never* had consenting
> sex with another man.  I have fantasies about doing so, but that
> doesn't make me gay.  I suspect that a lot of straights have such
> fantasies (although many probably won't admit it, out of homophobia).
> 
> So don't trot out that old tired line about how the gays are jumping
> on you.  I'm jumping on you, and I'm not gay.

That is correct, you are not gay. You are bisexual. It doesn't matter if you
haven't had such experiences willfully.

A teenage male who fantasies about sex with women all day long, but has never
even kissed one, is heterosexual. A teenage female who fantasizes about nothing
but sex with another woman (women) is homosexual.

A man who has done nothing but screw women, but only fantasies about screwing
men, is mostly gay. Ditto for the wanton woman who fantasies about women, but
sleeps only with men.

Now, take the paragraph above, instead of "gay" in line three, insert
"lesbigay" or "bigayles" or "gaybiles" or whatever PC phrase you want inserted
in there, and the statement remains the same.

DC





 

> --
> The real question for 1988 is whether we're going to go forward to tomorrow or
> past to the -- to the back!
> 		-- Vice President Dan Quayle
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 21:17:26 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<SCG.92Jul29180042@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<1992Jul30.083253.9058@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
	<1992Jul30.172704.3673@ncar.ucar.edu>


Cancelling your article, huh, DC?  A wise move.  In case you need the
report you posted on how fantasies cannot determine one's sexual
orientation, I can email it to you.


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"The press deals in facts, which aren't always the same as the truth."
				                    -- Ted Koppel
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Info/resources on Ritual Abuse needed
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:41:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul19.124135.8@antioc.antioch.edu>, mbaya@antioc.antioch.edu 
writes:
> Hello, I am looking for information about Ritual Abuse, particularly with
> Neo-Nazi ideology. Has anyone heard of:
> "The New Order for the Reformation & Reclamation of Aryan Culture and
> Civilization"? 
> 
> This information is needed for research assisting a survivor of ritual abuse.
> Any information on topics relating to these or any leads on possible 
> resources
> would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Please post and reply to E-mail since our newsfeed is limited. Thanks.
> 
> -Matt Baya
> Antioch College
> MBAYA@ANTIOC.ANTIOCH.EDU 

As an Antioch alum and friend of Matt Baya's, I can attest to his good
intentions.  I am completely aware of the situation which has led him to this
request.

However, I question the wisdom of discussing this topic on the open net.

Matt, give me a call.  My number is listed if you don't have it.

Tell J.F. and B.R.S. I say Hi.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 14:29:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.213147.75292@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
>I think that while we're reassuring the people who dream
>of raping that they are normal, we might also reassure
>the people who have been raped that it is normal to
>be disgusted by those people who delight in their 
>fantasies.

I agree whole heartedly with this statement.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Critisizing the victim?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 08:06:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.171426.28118@ncar.ucar.edu> sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan) writes:
>In article <VwuLoB2w164w@cellar.org>, hacksaw@cellar.org (Hacksaw) writes:
> >   I agree that one never asks to be raped, and that it is never the victim's
> > fault. But, in some cases, I believe too much sympathy is given to the
> > victim; she comes out looking like a saint. Is it wrong to critisize her
> > too?
>
>Your point is well taken, but a lot can go into being at the wrong place at the 
>wrong time.

I agree with much of what you posted.  (BTW, could you please do
something about your line length?  Your posts are interesting, but
difficult to read because of the odd line length.)

I see several problems in criticising the victim (or survivor if you
prefer).  First of all, the last thing a victim needs to hear on any
level is "you could have avoided this if you did (whatever)."  It's
too late for her/him now.  It will only lead to more second guessing
of what s/he could have done to prevent/avoid the rape(s).

Secondly, I think women get many mixed messages about rape.  First,
they're told to be careful.  No "sexy" clothes (although nearly all
rape victims were not dressed provocatively), no walking alone at
night, no going to frat parties alone, etc.  However, women are also
ridiculed because they worry about rape.  For example, a female friend
of mine invited a male friend into her apartment for some coffee.  She
also said that it was just for coffee, that she wasn't sexually
interested in him (she put it nicer than I have).  But the man was
pissed that she would even think that he'd try to take advantage of
her.  I've heard men complain about female friends who won't walk on
campus at night by themselves and about having to walk female friends
to cars in lonely parking lots or garages.  Here at Stanford, a group
of female students were asking for more lights around some of the
buildings and a male astronomy student complained that the extra
lights would screw up his telescope.

Women are told to be careful, yet they also get messages that they're
being silly or even hateful by the ways in which they try to protect
themselves.

And lastly, it's hard to know what is adequate protection for anyone.
As I have mentioned before, a man I knew was attacked, kidnapped,
beaten, and raped when he was out walking his dog late one night.  He
wasn't a small man, he was in good physical shape.  The neighborhood
wasn't a bad one.  The dog was a big German shepherd, for heaven's
sake.  And yet he was beaten and raped.

I can't help but wonder how the people who do seem to blame the victim
on some level would feel if they were raped and then had others
telling them what they should have done to avoid/prevent it.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: s_mesbah@engr
Subject: Re: Rape experiences
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 21:33:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.201904.9599@midway.uchicago.edu>, tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
> In article <1992Jul26.144038.1@engr> s_mesbah@engr writes:
>>Looking for someone to share rape experiences with.  
>>
>>regards,
>>Sam
> 
> Before corresponding with the person using the above account, I suggest
> that people look at the following post from the same account on the
> same day, on soc.women. 
> 
> Sam, is this a joke, a forgery, or what?  
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Path: uchinews!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!carbon!news.cs.indiana.edu!nstn.ns.ca!morgan.ucs.mun.ca!engr!s_mesbah
> From: s_mesbah@engr
> Newsgroups: soc.women
> Subject: women's place in life
> Message-ID: <1992Jul26.142146.1@engr>
> Date: 26 Jul 92 14:21:46 GMT
> Sender: usenet@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (NNTP server account)
> Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
> Lines: 8
> 
> Hi y'al
> 
> 	I am new to this group and I'd just thought I'd share my views with
> you.  I think that all you women should get away from the computer and start
> doing what you were created to do (kitchen, kids, and domesticated love slave).
> Remember, you were made from our rib!
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> 
> Leon Gross
> i'M not an actor, but I play one on TV.


And another thing Leon!  What gives you the right to copy my notes from
soc.women over to talk.rape?  If I wanted my views on women expressed here I
would do it myself.  

regards,
Sam
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 24 Jul 92 04:32:03 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

> This is the essence of a question I posed to DC a while back -- how can
> someone who has experienced and witnessed such trauma continue to
> fantasize about rape?  Wouldn't the reality utterly dissolve the fantasy
> in the person's head? 

If you really want an answer to the question, I suggest that you ask it
in alt.sex.bondage and redirect followups back here.  The topic comes up
there from time to time and there are at least a couple of frequent posters
who could answer from personal experience and who won't shy away from such
an inquiry, honestly-asked.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Sex fantasies--men, women, other.
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:23:21 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SCG.92Jul29175038@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:
> 
>>They then compared types of approaches (humurous, flattery, buying a
>>drink...) that each gender succeeded with. The male 'scoring rate'
>>was low (I think in the 40% overall) while the women hit 100% of the
>>time. Even when their appraoch was nothing more than "Hi."
> 
> Perhaps this is because that many single men in bars are not so
> concerned as to the nature of the female they insert their member into
> (so long as it has two tits and a cunt - some might waive the former
> requirement), whereas the women are more particular (if they weren't,
> they'd be off in a room somewhere with the aforementioned men,
> inserting tab M in slot W).

This is EXACTLY what I was saying. Further, to point out even more disparity,
the males do not care what they get--we all (most, anyway) want beauty queens.
The reason why we learn not to be particular is because when it is a seller's
market, you either take the floor model, or someone else will, and you don't
get any.

A woman who is even moderatly attractive can get laid almost any night of the
week, with a different man who is reasonably attractive. I envy the man who 
can honestly say that he can do the sam ewith women.

Not because I want to do such, but because he has an option open to him most of
us males don't.

> 
> I would be curious what percentage of the females in the study would
> have really desired to have sex with the men they 'scored' with.  I
> suspect it would be quite low.

The fact that you suspect it is low demonstartes that you agree with my
original statements. Women can get it whenever--what stops them is that they
get picky about who, where, and when.

Tell me, do you suspect the men who scored would also be unwilling to complete
the transaction except for a small percentage of the time?


> 
>>Sorry, I was simply talking about the MAJORITY of times. I guess I
>>should have provided for every possible alternative, including
>>bestiality, celibacy, and mono-eroticism.
> 
> I'll gladly admit that my fantasies may be a bit unusual.  Has anybody
> ever done a study regarding what percentage of men have ever
> fantasized themselves in a homosexual encounter?

MOST have. The percentage of men who are a 0 on the Kinsey scale (no homosexual
fantasy/experiences) is about 6%. Further, 40% of the men have tied at least
one time or more.

> 
>>So? Who cares what you think when it comes to our fantasies???
> 
> DC, you've clearly demonstrated that you don't care what anybody
> thinks when it comes to anything.

On the contrary, I am very interested in emperical data, and personal
observation used to illustrate facts. 

Further, this quote was a response to someone telling me that he thought my
fantasy (sex more or less on demand) was disgusting. If I hopped in and said I
thought your fantasies, and those of people like you were gross, how would 
YOU react?

DC

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: DC: I didn't threaten Amy ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:34:26 GMT

... I merely pointed out to her that there are people out there who don't mind
hurting women (men) for something as trivial as an assault on their self-image.
I never suggested that I am such a person.  I can see how that comment could
have been mis-interpreted though.  If you are reading this Amy, sorry.  Like
I mentioned in a previous post I can be somewhat confrontational and a little
rough around the edges.  As for your question DC: "How bad are you ?".  Well
certainly not bad enough to hurt a defenseless women or to fantasize about
doing so.  I'm also not bad enough to sit around watching films about rape.
Maybe we should get together one-on-one to talk about it?  I have tons of
frequent flyer miles to burn up.  I could fly to anywhere on the globe to meet
with you.  We could discuss relative badness, the decadence of our judicial
system, the care and nurturing of invertabrates (read laywers) and their total
lack of contribution to society.  I think at least one of us would find it a
*VERY* satisfying experience.

You know guy, I think the fundamental difference between you and I is that I
was brought up to believe that men have a sacred duty to respect and honor
women.  To protect them from harm at *ALL* cost.  To treat them as equals
and joint heirs to the kingdom of God.  To me even the thought of rape, true
rape, is abhorant to my very nature.  I believe that such values are totally
lacking from your up-bringing.  

As for your posts regarding the differences between war hero fantasies and
rape fantasies, notice the word HERO.  A hero is one admired for his great
courage and nobility (see Websters New World Dictionary).  I don't think that
there is anything couragous or noble about raping someone.  On the contrary,
rape is the most cowardly, ignoble act I personally can imagine.  An argument
can be made that war is a highly moral activity.  No such argument can be
made about rape.  I don't think fantasizing about killing people in war is a
good idea.  However, if I had to choose between the two, the war hero fantasy
would win everytime.  Hands down.  No contest.

KimmyD


P.S.:  If anyone besides DC reads this and is offended by my references to
       God or my position on Man's role vis-a-vis Women, please excuse me.
       It's just my belief system showin' through.  No offense intended.
Newsgroups: talk.rape