HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: awoolf@rp.CSIRO.AU ()
Subject: Re: Too much lossy encoding?
Organization: CSIRO
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 00:20:01 GMT

It seems my previous post stirred up quite a hornets nest. On re-reading it, I
agree I was rather harsh and have withdrawn the original post. My apologies to
anyone too offended. However, I stand by the points I made. I didn't go into
technical details because Kurt's post wasn't technical. The main point Kurt was
making was that he thought people were making too much use of lossy compression,
and that rather we ought to be using better storage/transmission systems, and that
further, we might come to regret having used lossy schemes in the future.
  I still think such assertions show a basic misunderstanding of the whole point
of data compression, ie to make use of current technology to it's full potential.
Obviously, one should only use lossy schemes where such loss is not critical, but
in the case of audio/visual consumer data compression the benefits far
outweigh the disadvantages. And when technology improves, either the use of lossy
compression will be less necessary, or it will be used for data that can't
currently be stored/transmitted. I can't, then, see any sense in which we might
come to 'regret the decisions' that have been made in respect of using lossy
compression. Anyone involved in compression must surely see it as a 'band-aid'
rather than a permanent cure, and claim nothing more than such.

There, I've made my peace!!
From: rjb12@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Browning;f110or89;[05306)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: JPEG Compression
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:18:51 GMT
Organization: Brighton Polytechnic, UK

mcdonoug@dmpe.csiro.au (Graeme Mc Donough) writes:
> Can anybody tell me where I can get the source for JPEG compression????

I've got some source ... contact me if you want it.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rich Browning (rjb12@bton.unix)   *   Madness ...
Department of Computer Science    *   ... is merely a state of 
Brighton Polytechnic              *       intellectual independence
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: DISLITE.EXE uploaded to garbo.
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:32:43 GMT
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland

In article <PX51GQG@netmbx.netmbx.de> herbing@netmbx.netmbx.de (Kai-Uwe Herbing) writes:
>Lets get serious, i don't see any reason not to put DISLITE on your archive,
>than supporting PKWARE with its policy not to release source codes and its
>policiy to sell non-US-residents crippled versions of PKZIP, instead obtaining
>permission from the government to sell the full functional one with AV-checking
>included.

Not fair.  I am not supporting anything in this.  In fact I have
clearly and publicly stated several times on the net that I am
unhappy about the PKWare AV-issue outside US. 

>Nothing personal, and I like your good work on keeping a great European
>archive site.

I understand and appreciate this.

Anyway, why don't the users take this issue up directly with PKWare,
not me.  I am part of deciding garbo.uwasa.fi policies (including
"no cracks accepted").  I have nothing to do with deciding PKWare or
US government policies.  The address of PKWare seems to be
75300.730@compuserve.com.  Approach them.

...................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.87.1
School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland
Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: rhee@picker.com (tai rhee)
Subject: Need program, ref.
Organization: Picker International, Inc.
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 15:20:13 GMT

  Hi,
   I am interested in the voice, EKG, or signal compression.
I like to know what is the current compression techniques for them.
Do you know anybody has been working on applying LZW concept to them ?
Both sides build voice banks and send the matching code. Do you think
the vocal model or neural network can be used for the voice bank ?
Does anybody a C source program to read/write from Sparc .au files ?
Any information or references are welcomed except FAQ.
Thanks in advance.

   rhee@picker.com
Tai Rhee
Picker International Inc.
595 Miner Rd.
Cleveland, Oh 44143
-- 
Tai Rhee (216)-473-4585
Picker International, Inc.
595 Miner Rd, Highland Heights, OH  44143
(UUCP: ...!uunet!picker!rhee) (Internet: rhee@picker.com)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: mather@sees.bangor.ac.uk (Paul Mather)
Subject: Re: Too much lossy encoding?
Organization: Centre for Applied Obfuscation.
Followup-To: alt.flame
Keywords: PASC, audio, mindless flaming
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 10:43:53 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.072719.28885@rp.CSIRO.AU>, awoolf@rp.CSIRO.AU writes:
> In article <1992Apr8.160300.5981@tc.fluke.COM>, kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes:
> > Is it just me or is anyone else out there concerned that we are using lossy
> > encoding "too much" as a substitute for denser storage and better transmission
> > methods?

[Much flaming deleted.]

> Think very carefully next time about posting on something you don't understand.
> Usenet treats such people very harshly.........

...for some strange reason.  Take a pill and calm down please.

Cheers,

Paul.
-- 
e-mail: p.mather@sees.bangor.ac.uk

If your mailer can't reach me, I'm obviously not worth talking to.
Newsgroups: comp.compression,alt.graphics
From: bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson)
Subject: Re: Fractal Compression
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:05:52 GMT

In article <9682.9204031501@thor.cf.ac.uk> spedpr@thor (Paul Richards) writes:
>I've been trying to find some references to fractal compression but to
>no avail. I remember seeing a Tomorrows World programme where they
>showed how a Bach (or someone) symphony was distilled to around five or
>six notes. Ever since I've thought this would be a good compression
>technique for use with neural networks but I can't find any papers or
>the such like. 
>
>Has anyone come across material that explains how you can take an image
>and create compressed data using fractals??

There's a nice introductory article in the March issue of _Electronics World_
(a British magazine). There's a couple of example pictures too. According
to the article, the 5000:1 figure is a cheat; it's a blowup of 1/8 of an
original compressed picture.

Bengt Larsson.

-- 
Bengt Larsson - bengtl@maths.lth.se
From: ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: PKZIP encryption contest available from garbo
Date: 11 Apr 92 04:58:43 GMT
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland

In article <1992Apr9.105517.28546@informatik.uni-erlangen.de> prknoerr@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Peter Knoerrich) writes:
>>Thank you Jean-loup.  Your upload is now available as
>>14433 Apr 3 14:39 garbo.uwasa.fi:/pc/arcutil/pkcontst.zip
>
>I can't get it! (Must be part of the contest :-)
>*-rw-------  1 10016     110         14433 Apr  3 11:39 pkcontst.zip

Yes, what a funny conincidence, wasn't it :-).  Seriously, I did set
this right the moment kind users notified me.  The file contest file
is available now. 

Of the contest itself.  The price of $1000 seems frankly quite low
to be attractive.  The challenge is ok and interesting, though. 

...................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.87.1
School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland
Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
From: ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: Where to get ARC from SEA?
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:59:18 GMT
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland

In article <13568.29E7AF41@zeus.ieee.org> thom@f517.n107.z1.ieee.org (Thom Henderson) writes:
> #      By the way, I do not waste harddisk space with their compressor, at 
>
>Of course.  That way you can claim to include ARC in your reports while giving
>it as bad a score as possible.  I have an old copy of version 3 around
>somewhere; would you like me to send you a copy?  That way you could report
>even worse numbers for ARC.  

> * Origin: System Enhancement Associates  (107/517)

Not taking sides on the initial dismissive statement and the ensuing
bad-tempered quip let me point out one obvious view.  The UseNet
netters and BBSers are mostly, if not solely interested in PD and
Shareware archivers.  Therefore it _is_ fair to compare those
versions.  The commercial products should be compared between
themselves, in a different class.  

As far as ARC 7.0 is concerned it is not in common use, not at least
in this community, because it has taken a direction of its own by
opting for the fully commercial route.  Please note, this is a
simple statement of fact, not a critique per se.  Nevertheless, I
think in hindsight that way back then SEA lost on its golden
opportunity by not concentrating on product development when it
still could have taken the market by doing so.  Now that's gone by,
obviously for forever.  That's how history went, however fair or
unfair, however right or wrong.  Note that I don't want to
participate in the eternal SEA vs Katz lawsuit debate.  (We are
probably in for having to look at flogging that dead horse anyway
the way this discussion seems to be going in some messages :-(. 

I moderate what I guess is a fairly well-known MsDos FTP archive
site which applies all the major archivers available in this
community (with .zip and .zoo in majority).  Fully commercial
archivers have no chance here.  The "clientele" would simply shun
away from them.  They are for other kind of activites and
communities.  (Remember what we learn at business schools: "The
market decides"). 

...................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.87.1
School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland
Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: PKZIP 2.0 Advert in PC MAG
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:25:43 GMT

ATDYW@ASUACAD.BITNET (Dan Wilson) writes:

>Well, I don't know if this even worth reporting, given all the false
>alarms we've seen on this board, but here it is anyway. I just got my
>new issue of PC MAGAZINE (April 28,1992) and on page 100 there is a
>large advertisement for PKZIP 2.0 and PKLITE. PKZIP 2.0 is priced at
>$47.00 and PKLITE at $46.00/ PKLITE PROFESSIONAL is priced at $146.00.

Remember, they put these ads in long before the time they hit the
streets.  They had some in Dr. Dobbs, etc., a while back as well.
They probably thought it would be out by the time the magazine came
out.  Or maybe they've joined the Microsoft school of marketing.
-- 
Real Programmers have no use for managers. Managers are a necessary evil.
Managers are for dealing with the bozos in Personnel, bean counters, senior
planners and other mental defectives.
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: 16:1 data compression
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:52:55 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

cedman@714-725-3177.nts.uci.edu (Carl Edman) writes:

>For the 1E6th time: It is trivial to show that theoretically no program  
>_can_ exist which is guaranteed to compress arbitrary data by even one  
>single bit, much less by a factor of 16.
>
>For data to be compressible by a factor of 16 it must be extremely  
>redundant. I personally would hesitate very much about doing business  
>with any company which does not acknowledge this.

I wonder if they think they can get 256:1 by doing:

    16to1 | 16to1

Not bloody likely!
-- 
/***********************************************************************\
| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
\***********************************************************************/
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: rowlands@ra.ti.com (Jon Rowlands)
Subject: MPEG algorithms (was Re: Too much lossy encoding?)
Keywords: PASC, audio, ASPEC, MPEG-Audio, PAC, PXFM, MUSICAM, AC-2
Organization: Texas Instruments Computer Science Laboratory, Dallas
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 20:26:43 GMT

In article <22572@alice.att.com>, jj@alice.att.com (James D. Johnston) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr13.212222.7605@tc.fluke.COM> kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt
|> Guntheroth) writes:

[ ... text from both authors deleted, then this comment from JDJ... ]

|> Pardon me?  If you look at the MPEG-Audio standard, which I 
|> believe to be a rather flawed standard, it puts the lie to your

[ ... more stuff deleted, then this... ]

|> >3.  How many people will give up CDs for mini disks and digital cassettes
|> >	and MPEG players if the signal quality is less good?  
|> A very good question, and one that I've argued extensively myself, to
|> no avail, in the MPEG-Audio committee.  I'll spare you the politics,
|> but suffice it to say <censored> overweighed any sort of technical or
|> economic needs.

Having pretty much exhausted (?) the discussion about lossy vs. lossless
compression, I'd be interested to hear some opinions on the MPEG video and
audio standards in particular. We must have a good number of informed users/
implementors/designers in this group.

For example, how do people perceive

1. the suitability of MPEG audio and video for specific applications, such
as home entertainment, multimedia (whatever that is), broadcasting and
telephony

2. the subjective performace of the algorithms at lower bit rates where
coding artifacts may be perceptible

3. the likelihood that the algorithms will be surpassed in quality in the
near future by other compression methods, for example methods using wavelets

4. the desirability that these become "universal" audio and motion
video standards

5. the prospects that future MPEG compliant encoders will demonstrate
significant increased performance, for example from improvements in the
motion estimation, psycho-visual model and bit assignment in MPEG video

6. the usefulness and practicality of compliant, reduced quality decoders

7. [ insert favorite topic here ]

looking forward to your thoughts,
Jon
-- 
  _  ,                                               _
 / `- \ Jon Rowlands         phone: 1-214-995-3436 _| "--_ People say I sound
 \_--_/ rowlands@ra.csc.ti.com fax: 1-214-995-0304 \_  __/ like a corporation,
     ~ `-> Texas Instruments CSL, Dallas, TX <-?!-'  \_|  but I ain't no body.
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: kent@sparky.imd.sterling.com (Kent Landfield)
Subject: Re: Info
Organization: Sterling Software
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:25:54 GMT
X-Md4-Signature: 9f7971c9fa033c80e7277670e406c2bd

In article <9gnj3w.chet@netcom.com> chet@netcom.com (Eric Chet) writes:
>Hello
>     I'm looking for some sources.  I need the latest lha source for unix.
>I'm alos looking for Gene Olson's COMPACT that was submitted to comp.sources.
>misc and Dr Dobbs compression contest.  Does any body know the Volume
>In comp.sources.misc it can be found?

volume15/compact v15i089: compact - Fast Compression of Large Files (part 1/1)
			
			-Kent+
From: 901106c@ace.acadiau.ca (TIM CHIPMAN)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Where Can I get the most recent PKzip ? (beta 1.93, I think?)
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:46:41 GMT
Organization: Acadia University


Can someone please send to me the FTP site and location of the most recent 
version of Pkzip (I believe the 1.93 beta is the most recent legit. one)

Thanks!

<I had already checked on simtel mirrors, as well as in archie.. to no 
avail>

 




Tim Chipman                ..................................
901106c@ace.acadiau.ca       ..................................
From: boberg@lysator.liu.se (Stefan Boberg)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: 16: 1 data compression
Keywords: bogus, compression
Date: 11 Apr 92 14:26:37 GMT
Organization: Lysator Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden

N02@csci1.csci.unt.edu (Orion) writes:

>I invented a compression algorithm last week that compresses everything down 
>to one bit.  I'm still working on the decompression part, though.

  Hah! That's trivial! I've invented a method to compress files to 0 bits
Yes, that's right: ZERO BITS! It's called `delete', or `rm' depending on
which version you have. Now I'm going to sue Apple for 10 Billion dollars
because they haven't paid the license fee for the MacOS TrashCan! They
stole my code and I'm NOT going to let them get away with it! Those
MacDweebs sure aren't going to get away with this one.

  Of course, I still haven't figured out how to decompress either, but 
thats a completely different story.. I'll let you know when I'm done. :-)

--
--
Stefan Boberg - AP & EE student at Linkoping Institute of Technology, Sweden
Author of LhA, ArjA and LhArcA. Co-author of Alien Breed, Project X, Full
Contact and Miami Chase.
From: thaco@Lise.Unit.NO (Eirik Milch Pedersen)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: PKZIP encryption contest
Date: 12 Apr 92 12:54:48 GMT
Reply-To: thaco@solan.unit.no
Organization: NTH -- Norwegian Institute of Technology

I downloaded this contest from garbo.uwasa.fi at saturday, and made a little program
try to break the code during the saturday night. And *ping*! After 115000 tries a file
dupmped at my HD called BREAKME.DAT. How the hell can I know if this is the right file?
Is there any chances that PKUNZIP would let me unpack with the wrong password? Where 
shold I send my file? Do PKZIP have any Internet addresses?




 _/_/_/_/_/  _/    _/   _/_/_/     _/_/_/    _/_/_/
     _/      _/    _/  _/    _/   _/    _/  _/    _/
     _/      _/    _/  _/    _/   _/        _/    _/
     _/      _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   _/        _/    _/
     _/      _/    _/  _/    _/   _/        _/    _/
     _/      _/    _/  _/    _/   _/    _/  _/    _/
     _/      _/    _/  _/    _/    _/_/_/    _/_/_/

+----------------------+----------------------------+
| Eirik Milch Pedersen |    thaco@solan.unit.no     |
|       Stp. 153       +----------------------------+
| 7000 TRONDHEIM - NTH |   "The summer is gone,     |
|        NORWAY        | and we are yet not saved!" |
+----------------------+----------------------------+
From: d88-jwa@byse.nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: 16:1 compression?
Date: 10 Apr 92 23:05:36 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Originator: d88-jwa@byse.nada.kth.se

.cc.lehigh.edu> ry01@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (ROBERT YUNG) writes:

   certain strin g of data. Once that's done, uncompression should be a breeze!
   So why am I hearing people saying they can compress so and so but can't
   uncompress...????

It's an inside joke among those of us who "know."

It's a real simple mathematical principle: there is NO
lossless compression algorithm available that is guaranteed
to compress ALL possible inputs, since you then could apply
the algorithm to the output of itself to compress it still
more, and then repeat until you're down at one bit. If that
was possible, all files would be compressible to 33 bits;
one bit being 1 or 0, and 32 bits keeping track of the number
of times you need to run the decompressor. However, the
absurdity of this is self-evident...

A good compression technique that compresses any file to 32
bits:

	View the file as a sequance of ones and zeros.
	The zeros contain no data; throw them away.
	Now count the number of ones, and store that
	number.

This is what people are talking about. Only, decompression
is a trifle hard.

-- 
h+@nada.kth.se; Jon W{tte, the Diplomat - NOT!
From: schultz@halley.est.3m.com (John C. Schultz)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: ZIP for a Macintosh
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:10:12 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: 3M Company, 3M Center, Minnesota, USA

Does anyone have a version of ZIP for a MAC or suggestions on
compiling ZIP for a Macintosh. StuffIt does not seem to have a version
which would run or be compilable for DOS or UNIX or VMS.
--
   John C. Schultz   +1 (612) 733-4047   schultz@halley.serc.3m.com
   How to include the taste of Glendronach in a multi-media system?
From: d88-jwa@hemul.nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: Too much lossy encoding?
Date: 11 Apr 92 15:55:58 GMT
	<1992Apr8.160300.5981@tc.fluke.COM>
	<1992Apr10.072719.28885@rp.CSIRO.AU> <6247@public.BTR.COM>
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Originator: d88-jwa@hemul.nada.kth.se

> rem@public.BTR.COM (Robert E. Maas  rem@btr.com) writes:

   Resample the master with slightly different bias adjustments and timing
   skew, so that each digital production disk is unique. Compute a checksum for
   each disk and that can be the serial number. Keep track of who buys which
   serial number. Then if you ever find two people with disks that have the
   same checksum, or anyone has a checksum that matches somebody else's registered
   serial number, you have proof somebody copied a disk without authorization.

No, you don't have "proof" since you can't guarantee that two
discs, even if not equal, don't checksum out the same.

-- 
h+@nada.kth.se; Jon W{tte, the Diplomat - NOT!
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: madler@cco.caltech.edu (Mark Adler)
Subject: Re: PKZIP encryption contest
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:32:23 GMT


Nico interprets:
>> In other words they didn't want it to be as weak as it really is !!! This
>> weakness is true and excisting so what is the point of the contest now?

Actually Phil feels that it is secure enough even with the known bytes
at the beginning of an imploded entry.  However Steve Burg talked him
out of using an imploded one.

So Phil thinks its secure.  But he doesn't appear certain enough about
that to bet $1000 on it.

Mark Adler
madler@tybalt.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: comp.compression
From: ead@netcom.com (Eric De Mund)
Subject: question about "zoo xp foo.tar.zoo foo.tar" usage
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 03:43:48 GMT
Organization: netcom

comp.compression people,

i would like to be able to use a zoo archive in a way similar to how i
use a .tar.Z file:

    % zcat foo.tar.Z | tar -xvf -

however,

    % zoo xp foo.tar.zoo foo.tar | tar -xvf -

doesn't work because foo.tar is prepended with:

    ********
    foo.tar
    ********

is there any way a non-filter zoo file can be made to behave this way?

eric de mund
ead@netcom.com
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: Where is the new PKZIP?
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:33:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: cancun.rdippold.702592412
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU (John D. Mitchell) writes:
>Hmm... If my memory serves, didn't SEA *win* that lawsuit?

A phyrric victory.  PKARC was so much better than ARC that everybody
continued to use that anyway (and PKARC 3.61 is still the one you find
for download on most BBSes).  And then Phil came back with PKZIP and
finally sunk the SEA compressors.  They could have responded with a
superior (no flames, we'll just say that enough people think it is to
make it arguable) compressor as Jung has with ARJ, but since ARC
wasn't all that hot to begin with, maybe it was just easier for them
to deal in mail doohickeys.
-- 
Do not drink coffee in the morning or it will keep you awake until noon.
From: sik@cci632.cci.com (Shawn Kammerdiener)
Newsgroups: comp.compression
Subject: Re: Strange Zip file.
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:51:04 GMT
Organization: CCI

In article <6APR199216494690@vms.huji.ac.il> gilf@vms.huji.ac.il (GIL FREUND) writes:
>viewing the file (With pkunzip -v or the XTreeGold Archive manager) I find
>that some of the files have UNKNOWEN written at the compression method
>column.

	It probably means that the version of UNZIP that you are using is
older than the archive that you are trying to undo. Get a new version of
PKUNZIP from an FTP site or BBS, and the problem should go away.

sik@cci.com