From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:17:45 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr7.093004.15751@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
|> #1817
|> 
|> >Subject: Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
|> >From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
|> >Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1992 21:57:14 GMT
|> 
|> >You're hedging.  You and Mike claimed that Judaism is
|> >built around a coverup.  Now you're saying the
|> >"changes" happened before Jesus, but "in the main"
|> >it was afterwards.  Since the Messianic prophecies
|> >aren't the "main" part of Judaism, (a) what do
|> >you think the other "main" changes are that were
|> >made as a "coverup", (b) what makes you think that
|> >there was one well-accepted Messianic tradition
|> >before Jesus which suddenly changed to a different
|> >one afterwards?
|> 
|> I didn't say there was *one* tradition (nor did Mike Brown).  My point is
|> that *after* Yeshua came, the rabbis were falling all over themselves to come
|> up with completely new and really far-out interpretations to counter belief
|> in Yeshua.
|> 

Here are things which you have posted about the rabbis having
changed Judaism:
[Bruce T. in article <1991Sep20.152950.13932@pbs.org>]
|> I'm glad you said that.  I demonstrates perfectly how the rabbis have
|> completely perverted what the Tenakh says.  The guy who said the concept of
|> a mediator is "idolotrous" was attempting to repudiate the direct and very
|> clear instructions of the Torah, and making God out to be a liar.  The
|> entire priesthood is built upon this; to patently deny this is a clear
|> demonstration that I was not exaggerating in the slightest when I called
|> Rabbinic Judaism a perversion of the original.
|> 
|> A mediator, blood atonement, and tranference of sin are absolute essentials
|> for approaching God, according to the Torah.  I choose to believe God, not
|> the rabbis!

[Bruce T. in article <1991Oct10.084034.14123@pbs.org>]
|> persuade someone" apart from the NT doesn't hold up.  Besides, before the
|> rabbinic gang found it necessary to pervert the interpretation of the
|> Tanakh in order to evade the obvious fulfillment in Messiah Yeshua, it
|> was widely held that Messiah would suffer for the sins of Israel and the
|> nations.

[Bruce T. in article <1991Dec11.120852.14613@pbs.org>]
|> This is the subtle (?) deception of those who have made a false religion
|> out of not believing in Yeshua and called it "Judaism", as if it were a
|> continuation of the faith of the patriarchs.  We have been through all this
|> before, but still you repeat the same lie.  (Maybe you believe the lie, in
|> which case you aren't lying; but you are deceived nonetheless.)

|> Yeshua fulfilled prophecy.  He didn't change Judaism.  He upheld it, and
|> fulfilled it.  The Pharisees who rejected Yeshua could not deny this, so
|> they subsequently -- often much later -- developed new interpretations of
|> scripture to justify their lack of faith in God.  Now they tell us that those
|> who proclaim the original faith are establishing a "new religion", when
|> *their* religion is the new one, some of which wasn't solidified until less
|> than 500 years ago.  Belief in Yeshua predates Rabbinism, which masquerades
|> today as "Judaism".  Some even dare to call it "Torah Judaism", when the
|> whole Torah points to Yeshua!!

|> God's Word hasn't changed, and more and more Jews are seeing through the
|> system of deception and dead works developed over the centuries by the
|> rabbis to hide the truth, that Yeshua *is* the Messiah of Israel.
|> It is not the MJ's who are apostate ...
|> 

[Bruce T. in article <1991Dec16.123536.14658@pbs.org>]
|> They believed in a Messiah Redeemer.  When Yeshua met the requirements,
|> the rabbis pulled some sleight of hand to change "what Judaism believes".
|> 
|> >And I have a very large quarrel with people who assert, as you seem to, that
|> >the leaders of my religion knew that you were right and they were wrong
|> >and that my whole religion is the product of their attempt to cover it up.
|> 
|> Not only then, but now.  We have debated with leading RJ's who practically
|> admitted as much.
[This is the posting where Bruce argued that the rabbis
would be better off if they were drowned in the sea ---
something which I've yet to see a defense or retraction for]

[Mike Brown in article <1992Feb20.091451.15293@pbs.org>]
|>      Only one of [Judaism and Messianic "Judaism"] has really followed  the  Bible.
|>      The  other has gone its own way.  Only one has really continued in the
|>      power of God.  The other has followed the traditions of  men.   ...
|>      The writers of the New Covenant were Jews who recognized that  Messiah
|>      had  come  to  atone  for  the  sins  of His people.  They based their
|>      beliefs on the Hebrew Scriptures, and on the Hebrew Scriptures  alone.

|>      TRADITIONAL JUDAISM AS WE KNOW IT TODAY IS THE RELIGION OF  THOSE  WHO
|>      REJECTED YESHUA.  It is a decided reaction *against* faith in Him.  It
|>      is a system which has been  reconstructed  to  negate  and  counteract
|>      Messiah's  real  claims.   That's  why traditional Jews throughout the
|>      ages have stumbled over the person of Yeshua.  But in the beginning it
|>      was not so.

All these quotes imply that you and Mike assert
(a) the original Jewish Torah was consistent with the Christian 
    interpretation
(b) that this interpretation was known to the earliest Jews
    and widely accepted by them
(c) and that it was changed by the Rabbis after Jesus
    for the purpose of discouraging conversion to Christianity.

I think that these positions are all indefensible, and
you are trying to back off from the need to prove
them while not explicitly retracting them.   Please
either retract them or prove them.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic