HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:56:21 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep1.220115.22548@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>, dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes...

>outclassed
>by both of Bernstein's. Solti is a formidable orchestral technician,
>but I don't think he's much of a thinker.
> 
>Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
> 
I'm pretty sure that I am not the only one who would strongly disagree
with you on this.  While it's always a matter of opinion (and you know
what proctologists say about opinions) as to which conductors and
performances one likes, I don't really think you can accuse Solti
of not being much of a thinker - hard driving sometimes, yes.

What do you other Solti-philes have to say to this?

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: viola music
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:13:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.083625.20751@nuscc.nus.sg> art30248@nusunix2.nus.sg (NG LING LING) writes:
>Thanks for the note, and just also wondering...
>
>Have you heard Zukerman trying to play the viola on the Brahms ? I think
>it was a DG recording from yonks ago. 

With Barenboim.  Not bad.  He just made a new recording of the viola
sonatas for BMG, on a CD that will also include the songs for alto and
viola (Marilyn Horne!).  Fall 92 release, I think.

(The old recording was a 3-LP box that also included the violin sonatas.)

btw, Westminster has released a pair of CDs of these pieces.  Pair?
One CD has Reginald Kell and someone named Rosen on piano; the other
has Paul Doktor doing the same pieces on viola.  Kell fans take note:
this is one of the very few reissues so far!  Cheap, too.

Roger



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dclason@dante.nmsu.edu (Dennis Clason)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:49:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.225722.21384@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen) writes:
>
>I dunno, this just sounds like saying what the prevous writer suggested:
>that clarinets in keys a semitone or tone apart are to avoid the effort of
>transposition, which we horn players have to do all the time.  Seems fairly
>extreme to have to own two expensive instruments in order to avoid adding
>five sharps (B-flat to A).  We horn players have to transpose all sorts of
>rot.
>
Because back in the (good :-) old days of natural horns
the instruments were crooked into about every key known
to mankind.  (OK, slight exaggeration, Bb basso, C, D, Eb, F, G
and Bb alto enough?).  Same horn, just add more tubing
(i.e. a different crook) to get what the composer wanted.
Trumpets were similar, but not as many crooks -- Bb, C, Eb 
and F are the only ones I remember.

So, why did pre-valve era composers call for all these
different horns?  Because pairs of horns in Bb and F
produce most of the notes needed for a piece in Bb,
and so forth.  Incidentally, that's why there are
four horns in an orchestra (vs two or three trumpets
and 'bones) and why the first and third are "high" horns
and second and fourth are "low" horns.

>>The minor effects: if the composer used the lowest note on the 
>>instrument (written low E) on the A clarinet, then I can't play it
>>on Bb clarinet at all.  Similar stuff.
>
Some Bb clarinets have a low Eb extension to cover that problem.
It doesn't fix the key problem, though.  On the other hand,
modern instruments are generally MUCH better in tune with
themselves than older instruments.  My impression is that 
this is more true of woodwinds than of brasses, although
it's generally true of the trombones, euphoniums and tubas
I've played.  I can't speak to trumpets and horns.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Recommend Recording
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 19:11:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.184633.29671@news.iastate.edu>, txa86@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>Hi! Everybody:
>
>     There are some recordings which is worth to introduce to you:
>
>     Shostakovich Symphony No.8
>     Leonard Slatkin, Conductor. Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra
>     RCA Records
>

  This one is quite old already. What about recent No.4 ? Is it any good ?
                                   
                                            Pawel Penczek     
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle)
Subject: Re: Bottom ten operas
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 09:21:51 GMT

Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>The time has come for us to get serious. What ten works should be
>dropped from the canon, or at least from the standard international
>performing repertory? 
>My basic criterion for this list is the "If you can cast them, you can do
>something much better" standard -- as opposed to the "I can't sit through
>one more routine performance" standard. By the latter criterion, one might

How about the No Musical Merit Whatsoever standard:

Cav & Pag (Cavalleria Rusticana & I Pagliacci)
Anything by Khatchaturian
All of Puccini except Turandot

-- 
Kiran Wagle     <kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>     (812) 335-0420
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:03:33 GMT

In article <BtyCqv.HrK@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.220115.22548@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
[...]
>>Solti is a formidable orchestral technician,
>>but I don't think he's much of a thinker.
>
>This is the standard thing to say about Solti, and I think he gets a bum
>rap sometimes.  

I didn't realise it was the recived wisdom. It certainly isn't in the
Penguin Guide which rhapsodises over some of his performances which I
find really week.

I will confess to only really being familiar with his Mahler and
Beethoven. Mind you, I did, in a fit of excess zeal for digital
recording in the early 80s, buy his Bruckner 5. This has to be one of
the worst performances I've ever heard...

>than Karajan, certainly)  And many more.  I wonder if his records were
>issued under pseudonyms, if people would react this way.

Maybe not. Maybe he wouldn't have won so many Emmys either?

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dien@bnr.ca (Dien Nguyen)
Subject: Dang Thai Son piano recordings
Originator: dien@bcrks77
Reply-To: dien@bnr.ca (Dien Nguyen)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:47:36 GMT


Does anyone have any of his recordings ? Could you please post me the record label and
CD catalog numbers . I believe that he had recorded the complete Nocturnes by Chopin
some years back . I would like to get hold of this set in particular .

Thanks in advance .
-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
 Dien Nguyen 		ESN:   (393) 2017	185 Corkstown Rd.
 Bell Northern Research	Phone: (613) 763-2017	Nepean, Ontario
 dien@bnr.ca		Fax:   (613) 763-7241	K2H-8V4 CANADA
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer)
Subject: Re: VOCAL Wedding music suggestions?
Reply-To: altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Berne, Switzerland
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 00:56:00 GMT

>In article <1992Aug28.171027.8556@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>In article <1992Aug24.165830.29702@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer) writes:
>>> After all the instrumental music recommendations, how about some for vocal music
>>> for a wedding?  (I appear as the singer.)  What I'd like to see are your picks for:
>>> 
>>>   1) Male solo (baritone or bass-baritone)
>>>   2) Female solo (lyric soprano)
>>>   3) Duet (above voices)
>>> 
>>
>>The classic soprano aria for a wedding is the Alleluia from Mozart's
>>"Exsultate, Jubilate" (I'm open to correction)---not that it's entirely lyric
>>soprano stuff. For a baritone-soprano duet, how about La ci darem la mano from
>>Don Giovanni? You may want to check on the circumstances of singing to avoid
>>complaints from over-knowledgeable guests, but it's a glorious tune. Since
>>we're talking Mozart, I'm sure you can find something in the operas for solo
>>baritone that is suitable.
>
>Sorry but I can't resist:
>
>How about Non Piu Andrai from Le Nozze de Figaro. A rough translation of 
>the first line: "Now you days of phalandering are over" :-)
>
>>-- 
>>
>>Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
>>wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
>===============================================================================


Not a bad suggestion, though all the bass-baritone arias from Le Nozze de Figaro
would be in some peoples' mind inappropriate for a weddding:

   Se vuol ballare - Figaro daring the count to mess with his girl
   La vendetta - Bartolo swearing vengance
   Non piu andrai - as you said
   Vedro mentr'io sospiro - Jubilation at the ruin of a rival
and finally ...
   Aprite un po qei l'occhi - Wake up men, and see the wickedness of woman-kind 

I will have to admit, though, that a friend (also an opera singer) asked for a
lovely duet for her wedding, and my partner and I did "La ci darem la mano" from
Don Giovanni.  Those that knew, smiled; those that didn't though it was a pretty
love song.  And so it is.

-- Bob
---
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#      Robert Altizer - Motorola ASIC Software Quality Assurance       #
#  1300 North Alma School Road, M/S CH240, Chandler AZ 85224-8517 USA  #
#             Voice: (602) 821-4249 -- FAX: (602) 821-4167             #
# Internet: altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com -- X.400: R10908@email.mot.com #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#   Nature has neither kernel nor shell, she is everything at once.    #
#                                   -- Goethe                          #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: martin@mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Martin Hasch)
Subject: Re: Sergiu Celibidache
Reply-To: martin@mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Martin Hasch)
Organization: University of Ulm, SAI, Germany
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 14:20:45 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug31115103@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
|> I've been interested in Celibidache mainly because of his reputation.
|> (His uncompromising image always makes his name look to me like a
|> cognate of "celibate", though I doubt his asceticism goes in that
|> direction.)

Sergiu Celibidache _is_ married. One son.
Anyone interested in a bio?

Martin
-- 
+----------------+------------------------------------------+----------------+
|  Martin Hasch  |  Internet: martin@mathematik.uni-ulm.de  |  (o ) /  (o )  |
+----------------+------------------------------------------+----------------+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: Schoeck
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:06:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.152055.29447@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.193845.21259@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) writes:
>>Anyone heard of the composer Schoeck?
>
>Yes.  
>
>You really *are* doing the Germans and Austrians, aren't you?  Schreker,
>Korngold, Schoeck...
>
>What about him?                 
>
>Roger
>

Oh, just curious. I saw some cds recently and wondered what sort of music they
were. The German/Austrian connection is cooncidental, however I am moving to
Germany in two weeks. As cds are considerably more expensive there (and I'm
not sure how easy to find in the area I'm going) I'm stocking up a bit before
I leave and am interested in investigating some composers with whom I'm
unfamiliar. So who was this Schoeck fellow?
From: rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Le Grand Macabre
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:39:02 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <Btnzo0.28v@news.cso.uiuc.edu> erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin) writes:
>Evelyn C. Leeper mentions
>.......
>> Ligeti, G.				"Le Grand Macabre"
>
>Anyone have any opinions on this opera?  A book I recently read called this  
>Ligeti's masterpiece. (Maybe it was David Cope's book.)  Anyone agree?  I like  
>Ligeti, so I've been considering buying a recording of this opera, but opera  
>isn't cheap, so I'd like recommendations.
>
>Ed erwin@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu

I too am big on Ligeti.  I purchased the recording when it came out last year
and I was not disappointed.  I don't know if it's Ligeti's masterpiece (for
me, that would be "Atmospheres") but it is a very effective theatre work, if
not always typical of the composer.  The Wergo recording is wonderful; good
cast and sound, and plenty of documentation.  Go for it.

--
****************************************   Raymond S. Tuttle
"Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod,"       University of Rochester
but it's nothing to get depressed about!   (still with his two little 
****************************************   white mice).
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (James Pritchett)
Subject: Re: More on CAGE CAGE CAGE!
Organization: Independent scholar, Princeton, NJ
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:25:44 GMT

I'm really getting tired of the lame "philosopher, not a composer" line.  I
liked Kyle Gann's obituary a good deal--in particular the line "How many 
gorgeous pieces does a guy have to write to be more than a philosopher?"  I
also think that Gann was right on the mark when he says that Cage's philosophy
is far weaker than his music.  This is another case of a thing being repeated
so many times that everyone believes it without even thinking about it.

James Pritchett
jwp@silvertone.Princeton.EDU
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Joining the dots ...
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:30:33 GMT
Reply-To: mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Sep1.151929.29297@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <41170007@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Chris Robson) writes:
>>Hi,
>>	I am looking for a book on the development of musical notation. I
>
>--A book on 20th C notation.  I forget the name of that German classic...

Erhard Karkoschka, Das Schriftbild der neuen Musik, Moeck, Celle 1966.

There is an English translation.


-Margaret
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:33:33 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Aug28.081107.21503@cs.ruu.nl> clldomps@cs.ruu.nl (Louis van Dompselaar) writes:
>In <7166@charon.cwi.nl> vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:

>>Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
>>I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
>>greatest composer ever.

>Especially when you know that someone once sorted out that about
>xx% of Mozart's work could be directly related back to work of Bach.
>(in that he used Bach's structures, parts of melodies, or whatever)

Um, could you give us a reference to this?  The number I'd guess is 
perhaps 1%.

After all, Mozart composed about half his music before he ever saw a
note of Bach's music; after that, he knew mostly the keyboard works.

Now, could you name some specific piece?  This sounds like a piece of
crank musicology that Bach-worshipers are especially good at.

>(N.B. as I'm not sure about the exact percentage, I won't make a
>claim here. Maybe someone else knows).

>This, of course, doesn't exlude Mozart's genius at all. After all,
>it's a rather logical thing to do, to use material available in

Most of it wasn't available, either.

>new ways, in ways which were not seen by the inventor of the 
>material. Also rather important is: the amount of material that
>is added. This is what describes the composer.

Still, I'd like to know more about the who, what, and how of the 
work you're talking about.

Now, Handel borrowed a whole lot from other composers, but not
from Bach.  Could this be what you're thinking of?

>And flames aren't necessary at all, as I will even state clearly
>that I think Mozart was a genius. As was Beethoven and  a number
>of other composers. All in their own ways, and, also rather
>important, in their own times. Someone once noticed that 'Bach
>had written far more works than Mozart'. Well, this is, of course,
>true, but then again, Bach was a cantor, so he HAD to write a lot
>of music. 

Huh?  Many cantors didn't, and much of Bach's music wasn't for that
job.  Bach wrote a lot because he lived to age 65.  By the time Bach
arrived in Leipzig he was older than Mozart was when he died.

>Would anyone say Beethoven's symphonies are worth
>nothing because Mozart has written so much more of them? I don;t

In any real sense, that's not even true.  Beethoven's symphonies 
are of a kind that Mozart only wrote a few of; perhaps a dozen at most.

>think anyone will.
>No, I think anyone could have his/her favourites, and claim
>THEY THINK their's is the best ever. Of course, they can't claim
>that he/she is, as this is rather a matter of personal taste.
>To conclude, however, I must add that it's a well known fact that
>Bach's been of great influence on the years to come after him.

That's true, though the paths of influence were not always straight-
forward.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:22:50 GMT
Summary: "And music dies"?

In article <1992Aug26.170343.10602@fid.morgan.com>, steve@fid.morgan.com
> Brian Yoder calls Cage evil.  You foam at the mouth.  Cornelius
> Cardew calls Cage soulless.  You laugh it off.  Something's gone
> wrong here. 

Your perspective, methinks.  It is Yoder who is doing the foaming,
what with his "objective" definitions which are as impeachable as
they are ludicrous.  Yoder's detractors have simply been pointing
that out, and quite civilly too, given Yoder's exuberant hyperbole.
Ah, but there's the rhetorical basis of music.

Anyway, if Cardew were making his accusations *on the net*, he
probably would be attracting a fair amount of discussion.  But
lacking the ability to interact with him, one might as well laugh
it off.  As one would laugh Yoder off, except for his login.

Now, about the "crimes" of this "evil" Cardew person.  My God, man,
he merely championed Mao's philosophy--he never killed anyone!
If you, say, supported George Bush 4 years ago, or today, or even
voted for him, does that make *you* responsible for, oh, the 100,000+
Iraqi civilians killed by the bombs or starved to death in the
continuing aftermath of his sycophantic support of the Saudis?

               *** ***
Ken Perlow   ***** *****
27 Aug 92   ****** ******   10 Fructidor An CC
            *****   *****   gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM
             ** ** ** **
...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Glass soundtrack
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:49:34 GMT

For those who may be interested, I'd like to tell of a film currently
playing.  It's entitled "A Brief History of Time" by Errol Morris, and
the music for the film was composed by Philip Glass.

It's a documentary, part adaptation of physicist Stephen Hawking's book by
the same title, and part biography of Hawking himself, drawn from interviews
of family and friends.

If some of you see it, I'd be interested to know how you feel about the
film and about Glass's contribution.  IMHO, I found the content of the film
fascinating, but its presentation tiresome and monotonous (and it's only
about 90 minutes - short by today's standards).

In a film like KOYAANISQATSI I felt that Glass's music worked, because that
was the only thing on the soundtrack, and it was enhanced by the little
that happened on the screen.  But A BRIEF HISTORY is different, closer to
a traditional narrative form, and I felt that while there were many interesting
sounds and effects, the music also became too monotonous, and couldn't
enhance the film due to its style.  That's it in a nutshell - comments?

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Music of the Fantastic
In-reply-to: schissel@mace.Princeton.EDU's message of 26 Aug 92 22:47:51 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Aug26.224751.4770@Princeton.EDU>
Distribution: usa
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:32:17 CDT

Eric Schissel writes:

   [Prokofiev's] third symphony (c minor, op. 44- really
   one of his most frightening and emotional works)

I was playing this one time and my daughter came into the room (she was
about 7 or 8).  In the most matter-of-fact, non-judgmental way, she
asked "Why is this music?"

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194)
Subject: Re: Bottom ten operas
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 14:22:00 GMT

In article <92240.212326KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes...
>The time has come for us to get serious. What ten works should be dropped
>from the canon, or at least from the standard international performing reper-
>tory?
> 
>I don't know if I can list ten, but my list would include:
>Andrea Chenier
>La Gioconda
>Adriana Lecouvreur
>Faust
> 
>What else?
> 
>My basic criterion for this list is the "If you can cast them, you can do
>something much better" standard -- as opposed to the "I can't sit through
>one more routine performance" standard. By the latter criterion, one might
>advocate dropping Carmen, Traviata, and Rigoletto. Under the former, you
>would cancel Faust and perform Traviata or Rigoletto well. (If the Faust
>cast were, say, Studer, Hadley, and (for Traviata) Hampson or Chernov. I'm
>not certain there's a Rigoletto around these days.
Are you serious???!!!