HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Legacy, what is?
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:06:37 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures) writes:

> From some of the posts recently, I have figured out that LEGACY is a science
> fiction based game but other than that, I havenever heard of it.  Can some
> one please expand on this?

Certainly.  :)    Legacy is a new SF rpg intended to support good role-playing
in a believable, consistent future.  Whereas most SF rpgs are combat oriented,
Legacy tries to offer a framework to make the other aspects of future life
interesting to role-play.  Our campaigns so far have revolved around
exploration, intrigue and career development (with unexpected twists).

As an example, our present campaign involves the operation of a shipping
company.  We invested our life savings, took out a mortgage, and bought a ship.
Getting the company started was an interesting experience, as was actually
running it.  Beware of corrupt customs officials, tough judges, and characters
with shady pasts.  :)    We encountered a corporate secret, investigated, ended
up in a ship-ship battle, got screwed around by the Royal Navy, and ended up in
sad shape corporately.  We did end up with an opportunity to make a profit off
that secret, and now are in much better shape financially.

Legacy is skill-based, and character generation takes the character through
education and career choices.  The rules system unobtrusively defines what can
be done, and what the results of some actions are, with other aspects of
gaming, such as planning and character interaction being more important.  The
rules are simple and elegant, handling most actions without needing to refer to
special rules or to consult charts.  While the game doesn't emphasize combat,
it doesn't ignore it; the combat rules provide for fairly detailed, deadly
combat, handled quickly and without a lot of charts.

I have an overview of Legacy, which I'll send to you and anyone else who
requests it.  I've been holding off posting announcements about Legacy until it
is actually printed in significant quantities.  There was a trial printing a
few weeks ago, and the designer wants to do a bit more editing and fine tuning,
and I think has decided to change the format from single-column to a more
readable double-column.  He's hoping to send it to the printers at the end of
this month.  I'll post in .announce as soon as it is actually available for
ordering.
--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2164 rec.games.frp:25124 rec.games.frp.misc:5266
From: v076jy2p@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Cosmo Of The Cosmos)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:50:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>don't know about any other readers of this group, but personally seeing a
>littany of characters whose fates are listed as "killed by own party" and 
>seeing the poster was a playtester does not influence me in favor of this
>game.  I left the "You jerk, I wanted that magic sword.  My character kills
>your character." style of gameplay behind in my Jr High School D&D games.


Hummm, Maybe I'd better explain this.

I'm The most unlucky BattleLords play tester in exsistance.  For a year,
I held the record of having never had a charater complete a session alive.
By saying "Killed by own party" I'm saying any situation where I was killed
by the actions of my party either through mallice or stupidity.  Only 
two people I've played with acutaly went out of his way to kill me, one died
the other succeeded.  For example.
The orion places the explosives on the door.  Thinking "more is better" he
puts on a few extra just in case.  BOOOM! the building falls down.
This has happened more than once.  Being pushed into a foot of sewer water
was going to be a joke, until I got eaten.  One time I went suicidal
against a pack of cave bears (Ram Python at the time)  After having trashed
the bears I was still suicidal.  I looked up for more enemies to kill.
Everybody else had backed off and were pointed guns at me.  To me, it looked
like I was surrounded, So I charged.  Then I went away, Glow White, Go Away.
As for Larry killing me, he's got TK.  I'm serious, 11 Double-Zodz in one
night using diffrent dice 'n everything.  I've been killed by the dice alot
and only once by another player.

I'm bragging, understand?


				-Robert "Capt'n Quaalude" Goodfellow
From: sdt8s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson)
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:07:51 GMT

Speaking of TW2000 unrealism...

About five years ago, I was playing this game with some friends
at another college. Low on just about everything, we came
across a house and decided to see if the nice folks living
there might like to sell us some food. First thing you know, my
character, a G2 type with an M-60 GPMG, is confronted by a
ten year-old girl armed with a fragmentation grenade. "Good
heavens!" my character shouts, and aiming for the chest at a
range of three feet, opens up. The first two shots miss. The
third hits the girl in the foot. She curses and stumbles back
into the house.

Perhaps it was just poor GMing. IMHO you have to make
allowances for point-blank combat, no matter what the player
rolls.

Steve
--
Language is a virus from Outer Space.      |-----------------------------|
And hearing your name                      | Steve Tilson                |
Is better                                  | sdt8s@poe.acc.virginia.edu  |
Than seeing your face.   (Laurie Anderson) |-----------------------------|
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:34:22 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Sep14.120133.932@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.060829.8129@fang.att.com>, bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer) writes:
>> 
>>     TW2000 has got some major flaws to it.    Next, a
>> M1911 .45 cal pistol does 2D6 of damage per round.  
>
>	Actually, a .45 ACP does only 1d6, same as a 9mm P or .32 ACP.
  
  All of the above do 2d6 in the small arms supplement and everything else
Published since (like Dark Conspiracy etc). If there is a second printing of
t2k2, it might have changed there too?

>Brandon Cope

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2195 rec.games.frp:25134 rec.games.frp.misc:5329
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:09:54 GMT

Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22665]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:26:32 GMT


	Ok, I'll take the challenge.  However, its going to have to be my
rules.  I've never seen BattleLords.  I have seen a couple of other systems
used for SF gaming.  Thus, since the designers of the game can't be objective
about it, I'll have to be the one to decide which system is better.  If you
will send me a copy of the game (postings about the game have not made it
sound like something I want to pay for) I'll compare its combat system to
Shadowrun, GURPS, Hero system, Twilight 2000 and anything else I can find.
If your game has a better combat system; I'll buy the game.  If no, you owe
me the $50.

	Your races don't sound cool to me and the descriptions of characters
and actions make it sound like a Mercenaries game not a true general SF game.
However, I'm willing to give you the benifit of the doubt.  Are you willing
to let anyone outside the design team give a testimony on your claims of
greatness?

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
From: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Maturity in Gaming
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:40:21 GMT
Organization: Purdue University.




Someone has asserted that those who play role-playing games are all young
and "pre-graduation".  In the current campaign I run, only ONE of us qualifies
for this.  The rest of us are close on thirty (one side or another of it) and
have entered the "real world" no less than five years ago.  Take off your
blindfold and shed your bigotry.
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Time mechanics
Date: 5 Sep 92 00:11:51 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

> A [GURPS] character who has his left arm chopped off can fight at no penalty
> after a second.  This is mildly acceptable if you are playing a bunch of
> special ops commandos, but is preposterous for almost anyone else.

Hmmm, GURPS sounds as bad as AD&D, where characters who are hit by a dozen
arrows, three spears, two axes and a crossbow bolt--and then respond: "I charge
them!"  :-)

> I think that Twilight 2000 has a much more realistic time scale, as well as a
> mechanic (Coolness under Fire) to represent how people *really* react to
> combat situations. The damage values are low compared to people, but that is
> an obvious concession to playability.

A concession to playability of _heroic_style_gaming.  That qualifier is
important.  We have very playable games in Legacy without giving the PCs
unrealistic bonuses in combat.  We simply _avoid_ combat, knowing that we would
die in a typical firefight.  Our group has only one PC with any skill with
firearms, and even she uses cover as much as possible when forced to use her
weapon.  I think that every shot she's hit with has killed the opponent.  Two
NPCs were hit and died.  Two PCs were hit, and only rapid response from medical
personnel kept them alive (and my character took a month in hospital to recover
from a chest wound).  In that instance, an NPC simply pulled out a pistol in
the room we were in and shot both PCs.  There was no time for heroic combat
from the PCs, which is how it should be for that style of gaming.

In Legacy, the lack of "heroic" combat doesn't matter, since there are so many
other activities that are equally interesting.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:41:38 GMT

sdt8s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson) writes:

>Speaking of TW2000 unrealism...

>About five years ago, I was playing this game with some friends
>at another college. Low on just about everything, we came
>across a house and decided to see if the nice folks living
>there might like to sell us some food. First thing you know, my
>character, a G2 type with an M-60 GPMG, is confronted by a
>ten year-old girl armed with a fragmentation grenade. "Good
>heavens!" my character shouts, and aiming for the chest at a
>range of three feet, opens up. The first two shots miss. The
>third hits the girl in the foot. She curses and stumbles back
>into the house.
>Perhaps it was just poor GMing. IMHO you have to make
>allowances for point-blank combat, no matter what the player
>rolls.

Your target number doubles at close range. I.E. Skill 3 needs to
hit a 6 at close range.  This is for single shots.
The Special Operations supplement includes the rather useful rule
for aimed 3 round bursts, as I suspect from your description above
that the player fired such a burst.    

Axly

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
From: tag@hermes.ecn.purdue.edu (Tony A. Gibbens)
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Keywords: The best
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:26:15 GMT

>peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters) writes:

.... a lot of stuff deleted .......

Just one area where your so called best game lacks is in the area of
mass scale combat.  Let me explain.  Currently, I am writing an article
for a game magazine over the "when's why's, how's, what's, etc" of mass
scale combat.  It has been my experience that eventually, at one time or
another, most every GM has entertained the idea of elevating his players
to the levels of generals (or what ever), allowing his players to control
huge forces, to create and wage war, not small conflicts.  

The problems involved with doing this, and keeping all players interrested,
are many.  Some of these problems are actually very hard to solve.  Clearly,
if a GM wishes to to run a large scale combat (perhaps more -- economics, etc),
he (she) does not need the additional problem of not using a system which
easily translates from role playing to strategic and vice-versa.  In this way,
your game is clearly not on par with other systems.  



--
There are no absolutes, and even that's a maybe.
tag@ecn.purdue.edu (Tony A. Gibbens)
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Time mechanics, healing and aiming
Date: 12 Sep 92 12:59:42 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <Bu6324.I0B@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes:
> I found it real interesting that the person who favored ADD used a modern
> combat problem he had with GURPS to say ADD was better. Well, ADD is
> medieval combat, so it would be more constructive to examine GURPS combat
> system examples relevant to that time period and tech level. That is, unless
> the average paladin carries an M-16.

	Nah, the average (elvish) Paladin in my GURPS Shadowrun campaign
carries Steyr AUGs...

Brandon Cope
a generous and sadistic DM
From: v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Incomplete Posts
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <RATINOX.92Sep11210948@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>, ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu writes...
> 
>Both Battlelords and Cyber HERO showed up at my local hobby shop this
>week. I bought Cyber HERO, but flipped through Battlelords. I found a
>percentile system. I don't care for percentile systems, prefering a
>more open ended setup (like Interlock, for example). I may eventually
>pick it up, but not right now.
> 
>---Rat

Hmmmm... I am curious...you mention a more open ended setup than a percentile 
system.  Are you refering to the I.C.E. systems?  This is gonna look stupid,
but I am not sure who released the HERO system...isn'tthat the people who
created Champions?

Skekisis - I get lost easy these days....
From: lavonius@kruuna.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Incomplete Posts
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:50:52 GMT
Organization: Vidal Sassoon's Mosh&Go

In article <BuEt2t.EJt@acsu.buffalo.edu> v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!) writes:


   Chadd,

     My posts  do not contain quotes because I do not know HOW the editor works
  and the one time I tried I made such a mess of things that I had to abort the
  post.  Since I obviously don't know how to handle the editor, my posts are of
  no value whatsoever.  Since I am new to the VAX and up until a week ago had

You really should ask an admin or equivalent for help. No-one's making any 
sense out of these disjointed followups. 
   
  attention.  Why don't you go and short stroke yourself all the way to a fucki
  hosptial you intolerant dweeb?  I suppose now that you have some experience i
  how to handle the hardware you almighty prick with a god-like attitude, you a
 
Tsk, tsk... A week on the net and already foaming in the mouth.
--
Ville Lavonius	        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Computer Science
lavonius@cc.helsinki.fi : And the road goes on forever and ever
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: urban@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Art Urban (PROFS))
Subject: FRP Archive sites
Organization: Atmospheric Technology Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:17:37 GMT

Would somebody please explain why the darn net.books FAQ insists on directing
people to the eklektik site? Why don't they put in something useful, like
where folks can *really* get these things?

--
Art Urban 					       urban@stout.atd.ucar.edu
===============================================================================
 "What's Next? Chasing bunnies on a motorbike until their hearts explode? -Crow
===============================================================================
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: GURPS combat vs AD&D combat - who's realistic?
Date: 5 Sep 92 01:22:19 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

Yay! A real gurps versus ad&d advocacy thang...

In article <1992Sep4.093659.58625@cc.usu.edu>, slp66@cc.usu.edu writes:
> The fight was 100 yards away at the outer perimeter.  The point is that there
> is no way the PC's could have been involved in the fight.  GURPS fights go too
> fast for characters to be involved unless they are right there.

That sounds right to me. If the fight is a hundred yards away the
characters *might* have enough time to get their armor on before the
enemy gets to them. It takes about 15 seconds for a real person carrying
weapons and armor to run a hundred yards, and if they're on horseback
then you'd have even less time. IMHO, GURPS shows this well.

> Ok, in Harn you can run away.  Not in Gurps.  Hey you better stay where you are
> and hope you can fight it out.  Manuevering in GURPS is suicidal.  It's very

Untrue. In GURPS the Move maneuver lets you move a full movement in a
second, and you also get to use any active defense you want. If you
could have dodged while standing still you could dodge while running. If
you have to attack something while running you can either use a wild
swing, at -5 to skill, or use an all-out attack maneuver and travel a
half move while giving up defenses. In fact the Move maneuver helps your
defenses two ways: (1) dodge-retreat; (2) Your movement rate plus
average range are added up to determine the range modifier for ranged
attacks against you. As for grenades, you said that it takes 6 seconds
to run out of grenade range. Not so. Real grenades have ranges of under
ten yards, which most 100 pt characters can cover in two seconds or
less, not to mention a run and dive for cover kind of thing which real
soldiers use.

I think the problem you are having with GURPS combat, and the reason you
think it's unplayable, is that everything you have learned about combat
was from D&D, and D&D combat is totally unrealistic and encourages
actions which would be suicidal in real life (and death), and in other
rpgs. You take these ideas to GURPS fights and find out that combat is
nasty, brutish, and short---totally the opposite of D&D combat, which is
glorious, spotless, and very lengthy.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus
From: thantos@runic.via.mind.org (Paul Williams [SysOp])
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing rolemaster pc's
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:56:30 GMT
Organization: Runic Writings / Lawrenceville, GA

v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!) writes:

> Sorry, but I have the same problem no matter how much or how little time is
> spent creating a character.  I game for the story telling and the fun of it,
> not for a body count and in my opinion, humble or otherwise, if things have
> gotten to the point that players are dropping like flies, then I have made a
> mistake somewhere...

Sometimes the players need characters to drop like flies to tell them
*they* made a mistake somewhere.  For example, a face to face duel with
Strahd in AD&D's Ravenloft is suicidal, but I've seen players keep
sending in characters doing *the exact same thing*, I suppose thinking
the GM'd get tired of offing them.



---
thantos@runic.via.mind.org (Paul Williams [SysOp])
Runic Writings
From: cb317@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stephanie J. Kessler)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Computer Games (was Re: Hostility in Gamers)
Date: 9 Sep 1992 04:02:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I like the computer games myself.  I usually have a live game
once a week, but that isn't always enough.  Besides that, the
DM's  for our group are me and my husband.  We can usually read

each other to the point of knowing where things are going, etc.
By using the computer, I am working with someone I do not know
and  cannot read.  I also like mapping a great deal, and the 
computer games is a good way to practice this...

To each his own, of course.. I think there are so many games
running around, there is something for everyone, although I too
wonder about the hostility between some gamers.. Of course, I
know  some would be ticked off by some of the statements already
made (you know, about not understaanding
why people play,  etc).  I mean, that wording makes it sound
like those who play computer games are a bit loopy...

No flame there intended...
-- 
The United States is a nation of laws:  badly written and
randomly enforced.     Frank Zappa

cb317 @ cleveland.Freenet.Edu