From: crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass)
Subject: Re: Religion & Physics Don't Mix
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:16:45 GMT

In article <73795@hydra.gatech.EDU> cegtitd@prism.gatech.EDU (Tim Dodd) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.173352.20400@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>+In article <73753@hydra.gatech.EDU+ cegtitd@prism.gatech.EDU (Tim Dodd) writes:
>++If a concept is defined in such a manner that it cannot in principle
>++ever be shown to pertain to a component of reality, that concept is by
>++definition meaningless. 
>+
>+     This seems to depend, to a great degree, on your definition of 
>+     'reality'.  You may well define it so that anything that is 
>+     not reality is meaningless.  If, however, you define it so that reality
>+     is equivalent to the domain of science,  things that are outside
>+     do not lack innate 'meaning.'  In fact, it is arguable that *any*
>+     concept of which one can conceive has 'meaning' simply in the conception,
>+     regardless of the nature of 'reality'.
>+
>+                             dale bass
>
>"Meaning" refers to the mapping between words and the objects to which they
>refer.  If a word is defined in such a way as to preclude even the possibility
>of establishing that its referent does in fact exist, then there is no
>semantic mapping and hence, no meaning.

     Unfortunately the semantic referent may be some rather ephemeral 
     concept that has no basis in a positivist objective reality.  It is also
     possible that the intended semantic referent is completely disregarded,
     spawning an entirely new concept.  This makes the process somewhat
     self-referential, so that absolute statments about what 'meaning'
     is become, in some sense, matters of convention and definition.

>Words can also refer to concepts.  A word can be regarded as meaningful
>if the concept it refers to exists, but if there are no real referents
>for the concept, then the concept is meaningless in the same way as a
>word would be.

     How can a concept *not* exist?  Simply actualizing it provides
     existence.

>Since there is no law disallowing the existence of meaningless words or
>concepts, one can in fact carry on quite detailed and apparently learned
>discussions of great technicality over concepts which are in fact meaningless.

     Feel free to define any concept that you like as 'meaningless'.
     However, you seem to think that existence gives meaning (and I tend
     to agree to here), so there are *no* concepts that are 'meaningless'.

>Philosophers & theologians often do this without giving even a thought to
>whether their subject pertains to anything outside their conceptual
>universe.

     How, pray tell, can a subject exist outside the 'conceptual universe.'
     I can see how a subject might exist outside an individual's
     'conceptual universe', but if a subject exists, it seems to be
     a part of the 'conceptual universe'.

>It is not difficult to fall into a mode of thought wherein it is implicitly
>assumed that just because we have a word for something, that word is
>necessarily meaningful (i.e., refers to something real).  If we wish to
>acquire the truth, this is something which must be guarded against.

     Well, you have a rather odd way of looking at the concepts of 
     'meaning' and 'reality'.  Am I to take it that concepts are defined
     as 'existing' and 'meaningful' and 'real' only when *you* want them
     to be meaningful.  This seems perfectly consistent, but it is probably
     not widely shared.

>You cannot render something real by altering the definition of "reality".
>To do so amounts to nothing more than playing with words and imparts no
>useful information.  Indeed, loose terminology can be very misleading
>to the unguarded mind.

     Am I to take it that a definition of 'reality' that denies as meaningless
     much of the conceptual basis of philosophy and religion and thought
     is not misleading and is the sign of a guarded mind?

                           dale bass
-- 
C. R. Bass                                           crb7q@virginia.edu
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            (804) 924-7926