From: leung@DSG.Tandem.COM (Steven Leung)
Subject: Re: My dismay (was: Re: What do you think of Chris Patten)
Originator: leung@bittemple
Organization: Tandem Computers
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:00:31 GMT


cw@orion.uucp (C.W. Chung) writes:
|> ... I would say even with very_very_senior CCP GaoGan backings, one could
|> be sacrificed easily (like Zhao ZiYang :-).  Seriously though, I found
|> your last paragraph very offensive and is off-base.  I am disappointed
|> that you have written such.  I always feel that one of the most valuable
|> lesson we learn in schk is the ability to be open minded and be able to
|> engage in serious discussions without resorting to personal attack.

Personal attack? I thought I just gave some (obviously unsolicited) advice.
Serious discussions? HAHaha ... Let's see how serious you are:

|> >|> ... IMHO, the democracy of
|> >|> HK is really linked to the democratic process in China, and you are
|> >|> going to have a lot of resistance from the Chinese leaders if HK
|> >|> moves way in front of China.                               ooooo
|> >   ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|> >
|> >HAHaha. Are Chinese leaders really so narrow-minded as you said? HK
|> >already "moves way in front of China" in many aspects such as econ.
|> >dev., living standard, political openness, ... So what other areas
|> >HK must not "move way in front of China"? Could you give us a list
|> >once and for all so that we won't make such stupid mistakes?
|> 
|> I thought the context is pretty clear that it is democracy that I 
|> was talking about.

So, you admit that the political reform proposed by Patten is a move
"way in front of China" in democracy, right? Now, why HK can "moves
way in front of China" in all other areas but not in democracy? Just
because "a lot of resistance from the Chinese leaders"? You called that
"serious discussion"?

|> >|> The economic development and the loosening of political grip in China
|> >                            ???oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|> >|> is nothing short of astounding. ...
|> 
|> >I don't question about the econ. dev. part, but I wonder how you derive
|> >this "loosening of political grip" dev. from, say, the recent 14th CCP
|> >congress. There are indeed reports about improvement of the conditions
|> >of some dissidents' sprouses, but they are exactly the signs that outside
|> >pressure does work. Of course, you opt for another interpretation.
|> 
|> Just read about independent magazines like 'The Nineties', and talk to
|> people who have lived or visited in the mainland, and in particular 
|> orpeople who live or work in Pearl River Delta, I am sure you'll come
|> to the same conclusion.  Many of the release of 'dissidents' are for show
|> only for the foreign pressure, but things are really loosening up in China
|> now.  Try read the interview by editor Li Yi with the former GongMing Daily
|> reporter Dai Ching in the Nov issue of 1992 'The Nineties'.  Dai Ching has
|> been and is one of the most vocal dissident in China.  Perhaps you could 
|> listen to her.  

Well, I read that article, and I can't recall Dai Ching talked about the
14th CCP congress (obviously she can't). Another "serious discussion."

|> >|> ... If the trend could be upkept, I think the political process in China
|> >|> is going to be less and less opaque as well.
|> >
|> >HAHaha, yeah, they already said that they prepare to setup a shadow govt.
|> >in ShenZheng, and there is no shortage of people like Lo Tak Sheng in HK,
|> >and even overseas. I just don't understand why they are so afraid of letting
|> >people participating in the political process if "the trend" is to make the
|> >process "less and less opaque."
|> 
|> The simple answer is they are not there yet, but they are moving in 
|> that direction.

Well, my question is that if the trend is as what you said, why they are
so afraid of HK getting ahead. And your "simple answer" basically is:
yeah, that's the trend. You called that "serious discussion"? 

|> >|> ... Even in the case of Tai Ah Bay Nuclear Reactor, I think China has
|> >|> been careful to try to consult and explain the situation (probably not
|> >                   ooooooo???????
|> >|> to the satisfaction of most people of HK though).  I do think China do
|> >
|> >HAHaha, (just can't stop laughing), yeah, they obviously try hard. They
|> >manipulated thru some Legco member to make a so-called investigation trip
|> >to Europe and cooked up with a report to support the decision. (Some ugly
|> >lady, unfortunately, has been sacrificed in the process.) Is this what
|> >you called "consult"?
|> 
|> The process of 'consultation' surely could use more improvement, but 
|> at least the report comes from LegCo and not from an 'old man in Beijing'.

I'm amazed by how uncritical you are in accepting the meaning of "consultation"
in CG's term: "consultation" simply means to come up with something to justify/
support CG's decision, right? Despite the objection of the public, the fact that
the report comes from some Legco members and not from an 'old man in Beijing'
is good enough to qualify as a "consultation," (as long as it support CG's
decision), right? HAHaha, so much about your "serious discussion"!

Steven
-- 
328. Seek opportunity, not security. ...
        - Life's Little Instruction Book by H. J. Brown, Jr.

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