HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Free will and time travel
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:13:12 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug12.090550.22749@cs.hw.ac.uk>, adrian@cs (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.013425.17386@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>>
>>Now consider an agent acting under "free will".  Since the actions
>>taken by such an agent are inherently unpredictable (otherwise it
>>doesn't have "free will", right?), we now have another factor that
>>diminishes any diety's claim to omnipotence and omniscience.
>
>This is where I get to put some real SF into this thread, and justify its
>presence in this group. :-)

Sounds good to me.

>Would time travel be incompatible with free will?

Let's examine this closely.  From our point of view, the past is fixed.
None of us expect to find that tomorrow, Peral Harbor Day will be on
November 31, or December 14.  Since the past is fixed, that means that
no one in the past could have free will.

So whither time travel?  There are several possibilities:

  - The past is not immutable.  I'm not sure what you could do with
    this.  The nature of free will suggests that there would be
    continuous spontaneous changes in the past as people made different
    choices, and thus, there would be little logical consistency to the
    world.

  - You can travel to the past, but if you do, you lose your free will.

  - You can travel to the past by "reversing" time, so everyone comes
    along.  Then, the future you know of will only be one possibility.
    The new one that is subsequently  played out will no doubt be
    different...

  - You can travel to the past, but as soon as you arrive, reality
    "branches" ala `parallel universes'.  (Or, you can only travel
    to alternate universes, but some of them would be indistinguishable
    from our own except for being n years behind us).

  - You can't travel in time.


That's all I can think of.  Notice that none of them really allow you
to play out the grandfather paradox...

-- 
What signature?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: pcm@cs.brown.edu (Peter C. McCluskey)
Subject: Re: Proving the existance of a deity (was Re: Mandatory negatives)
Organization: Gondwanaland Reunification Project
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:34:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.005407.12901@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
|> If evolution is to be regarded as a viable theory, it must explain the
|> apparent contradiction with entropy (and other difficulties as well).
|> In fact, it seems you must postulate some kind of force which causes
|> systems to go from a chaotic state to more and more organized states
|> (the exact opposite of entropy) for any `godless' orgin theory of the
|> universe.
|> 
|> So where is this `anti-entropy'?  Where are the experimental results

Clearly the notion of entropy that you are using here is false, since it is
easy to find phenomena which contradict it (snowflakes, Saturn's rings, etc).

|> >>[PS: if evolution works, where are all the transitional forms?]
|> 
|> >You mean like Homo Sapiens Cro Magnon, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, Homo
|> >Erectus, Homo Habilis, etc?
|> 
|> No, I mean /transitional/ forms.  Consider, for a moment, the probability
|> that a random mutation will not prove lethal (or sterilizing) before the
|> animal in question has a chance to breed, and pass it on.  Call this
|> probability `p'.  So the probability of 2 mutations not killing the animal
|> before it can pass it on will be p*p, and the probability of n such mutations
|> will be p^n.  Clearly, successful mutations will almost always be a single
|> change.
|>
|> From this, one would suspect that the fossile record would show incremental
|> change between species: p, p', p'', p''', p'''', p''''', etc.  Certainly
|> there would be gaps, but one would certainly expect to find at least a few
|> examples of animals identical but for one or two mutations.  These are what
|> I mean by `transitional forms'.
|> 
|> Are there examples of very-close-but-different species probability theory
|> would seem to require of evolution?

Much of evolution occurs via recombination of existing genes rather than by
mutation, at least in sexually reproducing species. This obscures the fossil
evidence of mutations. Also, there is no practical way to say "these 2 organisms
differ by 1 mutation" unless we compare their DNA, so we can't know whether
any of your 'transitional forms' have been found.
-- 
         hardcore signature virus: "As a juror in a Trial by Jury, 
         you have the right, power and duty to acquit the defendant 
                 if you judge the law itself to be unjust."
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Fantasy-in-music list
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:43:14 GMT
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
In-reply-to: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu's message of 19 Aug 92 16:30:06 GMT
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]

>>>>> "JPHF" == James P. H. Fuller <fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu> writes:

JPHF>      I just ran across Rich Kulawiec's SF-references-in-music list in
JPHF> this newsgroup.  It's very interesting in itself but it also whets my
JPHF> appetite (yet again) for a similar list concerning fantasy in music.
JPHF> Is there such a list presently being kept by anyone?  If there isn't,
JPHF> I want it badly enough to volunteer to build it and keep it updated
JPHF> myself, but I'll need help from you-all in the form of REFERENCES
JPHF> REFERENCES REFERENCES.  What music do you know about that ought to go
JPHF> on such a list??

I don't know about a complete list, but much of Blue Oyster Cult and
Hawkwind is inspired by fantasy and SF, and even written by Michael
Moorcock. Moorcock has even toured with Hawkwind, reading poetry and stuff
between sets.


--Rat

||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
                                                   __        ___ 
Richard Pieri, Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat/   | /| / /   | The Worlds
Internet: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu   /__  |/ |/ / /| | Welfare Works
    UUCP: ...!northeastern.edu!meceng!ratinox  /   | /| / / / | | Association:
  BITNET: UA_RLP@NUHUB{.BITNET}               /__  |/ |/ / /  | | I will solve
  USNail: 14 Westdale RD  Holbrook, MA 02343 /   | /| / / /___| | any problem
 ICBMnet: 42 deg 1 min N, 71 deg 0 min W    /    |/ |/ /_//_____| for you.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: ucjtrjf@ucl.ac.uk (Jonny Farringdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for Hitchhiker's Guide online
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:00:48 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


>|>I saw an article somewhere a while back stating that the text of the
>|>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was available for anonymous ftp.

>#define FLAME  (Les Carleton)
{  DELETED FLAME about world economy, copywrite, &c}
{  PLUS the following *good* advice                }
>|>Could anyone point me in the right direction?
>Your local bookstore?
>#undef FLAME


Ummm,  Les, what ever happened to `Share and Enjoy'  ?

ALSO, the original poster, who cant get alt.fan.d-a won't have directly
followed this, but recently someone scanned the book and posted it --
he was subsequently   sued-to-smithereens  (elelectronicaly speaking).

The answer to his question is `there isn't an ftp site for HHG, or at least
there shouldn't be.  However there is the on-line index, quote-file, guide
&c, but the direction of those is not v.helpfull for the poster ...
alt.fan.d-a   ;-(                   j.   ucjtrjf@ucl.ac.uk
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Fantasy-in-music list
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:30:06 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens


     I just ran across Rich Kulawiec's SF-references-in-music list in this
newsgroup.  It's very interesting in itself but it also whets my appetite
(yet again) for a similar list concerning fantasy in music.  Is there such
a list presently being kept by anyone?  If there isn't, I want it badly
enough to volunteer to build it and keep it updated myself, but I'll need
help from you-all in the form of REFERENCES REFERENCES REFERENCES.  What
music do you know about that ought to go on such a list??

     The list I have in mind would include recent pop/rock on a fantasy
theme (examples: Bob Dylan, "All Along the Watchtower";  Jethro Tull,
"The Broadsword and the Beast") and also classical/romantic (e.g. _Night
on Bald Mountain_, _In the Hall of the Mountain King_, the entire
_Ring des Niebelungen_ cycle.)  

     I would specifically like to *exclude* folk because there's such a
large number of folksongs featuring elves, wizards, knights-in-shining-
armor and what have you that the list would be swamped by the volume.  One
really doesn't need a special list to locate fantasy-flavored folk music.
For purposes of this list I would (crudely and arbitrarily) define "folk
music" as any popular music written by "anon."  This means don't bother
to write or post about the Childe ballades -- but *do* mention stuff like
Archie Fisher's "Witch of the West-Mer-Land" since, folkish though it is,
it's recent and we know who wrote it.

     (Note, I'm still open to argument about excluding folk.  For instance
if somebody wrote "You just CAN'T have a fantasy-music list without even
MENTIONING Steeleye Span"  I'd have a fairly hard time arguing with that.)


     If there's already a fantasy-music list being kept by somebody then
NEVER MIND, as the lady said.  If there isn't, though, then please post
your favorites to rec.arts.sf.misc or mail them to fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu
and I'll post the first summary in a month or so.

     Thanks very much to anyone who feels moved to respond!

                                                   -- jf



| James P. H. Fuller, Research Coordinator     Soil/Water Biology Laboratory |
|                                              Institute of Ecology          |
| work: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu               University of Georgia         |
| home: (crom2 rejoins the bitstream one day)  Athens, GA U.S.A.             |


     P.S.  Isn't this more interesting than "athiesm"?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: hex@rtxirl.rtxirl.ie (Allyn 'Hex' Wade)
Subject: Looking for Hitchhiker's Guide online
Organization: Retix, Ireland
Distribution: rec
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:27:34 GMT

Hi,

I saw an article somewhere a while back stating that the text of the
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was available for anonymous ftp.

Could anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks...

(I know about alt.fan.douglas-adams, but don't receive the alt groups)
--

                                                     ____
_______________________________________________ooo__(o  o)__ooo______
-- Allyn Wade   ---   hex@rtxirl.rtxirl.ie

"Close examination of the text informs us that this book is of the lout-
comic subdivision of the comic species, and, being of essentially pleasant
subject matter, produces pleasure directly as opposed to the cathartic or
purgative method.  In short, 'Winnie-the-Pooh' is funny."
	--A Complete Analysis of 'Winnie-the-Pooh', Duns C. Penwiper
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: CONS and video
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 15:24:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.232003.2882@hsv3.lsil.com>
  mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>>6.  Good video rooms.
>
>This looks likely to go away entirely in the near future.  This last
>BayCon's video track had to be cancelled because the studios demanded
>lots of money ($250, I think) per showing for each film. Indications
>seem to be that they consider con showings to be "piracy" and are
>starting to take notice and crack down.  Up until now it's been a
>case of "what the studios don't know won't cost us..."

A shame.  Video rooms are a major draw for me as well.  I don't suppose
that it would help any for the con to throw open the video room to the
public, and maybe even drop the room as an official event.  In effect, come
as close as possible to making it a 'personal' showing.  But hey, there's a
lot of chairs in the room, and you're welcome to watch too....  Yah, I
grant you such a dodge would be a tad sleazy, but then $250/movie is not
real cool either.

BTW, Animeigo at least has been particularly reasonable to our local anime
club.  They simply want us to make it known where to buy the videos that we
show.  They consider it advertising, and we show the stuff with their full
knowledge and consent.  So I think that there will always be *some* video
stuff that will be OK to show at cons, but the selection may well be
limited to the wares of the more reasonable (small?) distributors.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Fantasy-in-music list
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:36:40 GMT
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administr., Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

James P.H. Fuller writes:

>     I just ran across Rich Kulawiec's SF-references-in-music list in this
>newsgroup.  It's very interesting in itself but it also whets my appetite
>(yet again) for a similar list concerning fantasy in music.  Is there such
>a list presently being kept by anyone?  If there isn't, I want it badly
>enough to volunteer to build it and keep it updated myself, but I'll need
>help from you-all in the form of REFERENCES REFERENCES REFERENCES.  What
>music do you know about that ought to go on such a list??
> 
>     The list I have in mind would include recent pop/rock on a fantasy
>theme (examples: Bob Dylan, "All Along the Watchtower";  Jethro Tull,
>"The Broadsword and the Beast") and also classical/romantic (e.g. _Night
>on Bald Mountain_, _In the Hall of the Mountain King_, the entire
>_Ring des Niebelungen_ cycle.)  


A few thoughts:

    First, I'd be really interested to see the references in SF list, if
anyone can e-mail it to me. (And I'll be eager to read the fantasy list.)

    And here's one to get you started on fantasy, from "Ramble On" by
Led Zeppelin.

    "In the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair,
    But Gollum and the Evil One took her away from me...
    So I'll keep on ramblin'.... "

    I think this is right. It's not exactly true to the Lord of the
Rings novels, but what the heck.

    Also, I wonder if anyone will take exception to your suggestion that
"Night On Bald Mountain" is a fantasy reference, considering that it is
St. John's "night." Actually, I'd be fascinated to see an all-out
discussion on The Bible as a work of fantasy!

    Finally, what is the fantasy reference in Dylan's oft-covered "All
Along the Watchtower"? Dylan's work has always seemed surrealistic to me
("Isis," "Tangled Up In Blue," "..Watchtower," "Lily, Rosemary and the
Queen of Hearts"), in that he tells folk-like stories that are, on close
inspection, completely twisted and bizarre. It would be interesting to
know of actual literary references.
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: lintz@buster.cis.udel.edu (Brian Lintz)
Subject: Re: Free will and time travel
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:55:05 GMT

In article <92231.145006MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.200411.25622@udel.edu>, lintz@buster.cis.udel.edu (Brian
>Lintz) says:
>
>>In article <1992Aug14.011312.13075@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
>>dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>
>>>So whither time travel?  There are several possibilities:
>>>  - You can travel to the past by "reversing" time, so everyone comes
>>>    along.  Then, the future you know of will only be one possibility.
>>>    The new one that is subsequently  played out will no doubt be
>>>    different...
>
>>I'm not sure what the difference between these two are. If the past is
>>changeable, and you don't have alternate universes, when you travel
>>back to the past, the time you travel to becomes your present, and
>>as you say, the future you are from is only one possibility. Maybe
>>my problem is that I don't know exactly what you mean by "reversing time
>>so that everyone comes along." Could you expand on this?
>
>I'll jump in here with a guess: it's like winding back the entire universe,
>like a movie going through the projector backwards. You'd "rewind" time to
>the desired date, and then "fast-forward" it back to your own time to see
>how things work out.

That was what I thought he meant. If that's the case, I don't know what the
difference is between that and the other type when he said basically you
had one timeline (as opposed to alternate universes) and the past could be
changed. You just send yourself back to the past; this is the equivalent
to the "rewind". You make your changes. Then you travel back to 1992; this
is equivalent to "fast-forward". I think the two are equivalent, and I could
not understand why the original poster put them as two separate cases. I 
thought that perhaps I missed something in his explanation of "rewinding"
the universe.

Brian Lintz
lintz@udel.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:2656 rec.arts.sf.written:11364
From: pete@plutonium.CChem.Berkeley.EDU (Pete Goodeve)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Karel Capek (was Re: 'Science Fiction' Stage Plays)
Date: 23 Aug 92 07:46:25 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: plutonium.cchem.berkeley.edu

[crossposting to ..written added -- seems appropriate]

In  <1992Aug13.162853.3768@pbhya.PacBell.COM> (13 Aug),
Wilson Heydt (whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM) writes:
> In article <cass8806.211@elan.glassboro.edu> cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug11.122129.5664@linus.mitre.org> bwise@hemlock.mitre.org (Barry Wise) writes:
|>
|> >In article <1992Aug10.235309.12586@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth
|> >Breidbart) writes:
|>
|> >I believe RUR, where the term 'robot' came from, was a stage play. Can't
|> >remember the author although I think he was Czech.
|>
|> didn't issiac asimov coin the term "robot?"
>
> No.  It was by Capek in _RUR_.

Ah, how soon are they forgotten...

Yes the word `Robot' was indeed coined by the Czech author Karel Capek
in his play `R.U.R.'  ("Rossum's Uoiversal Robots") sometime in the '20s).
(Though they were more what we would now consider as androids than robots.)

It's very sad that this guy is almost totally forgotten by modern
readers, because although R.U.R. is a play, he wrote a number of
interesting SF novels before many other people were into that activity...

Everything of his is now totally out of print, as far as I can tell,
but our school library (Hi, any Old Gowers out there... (:-)) had
a good collection.  There was "War with the Newts" -- I remember the
title but not much else, so maybe it doesn't deserve much remembrance,
but one that intrigued me much more was "The Absolute at Large".

This one might even have some relevance to the ongoing discussions re
religious beliefs or lack of them in this newsgroup.  He took as basis
an apparent suggestion of the time that `God' might be embodied equally
in every material object, then pondered what owuld happen when atomic
energy began to be used as a cheap and plentiful power source (again,
'20s or '30s, remember!).  What happens if god is in matter, and matter
is disintegrated?  Riigght...

Just wish I could read that one again.  Maybe it wouldn't stand up:
after all I was probably only about twelve when I read it.  Nevertheless
it's a shame it's been lost.
                                        -- Pete --
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: lamont@cup.hp.com (LaMont Jones)
Subject: Re: Cons
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:24:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1lj PL5

ELLEN G. COHN (ISTN100@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU) wrote:
: P.S.  I've been wondering - what do concoms generally do about First Aid?

From what I've seen, they tend to avoid officially responding personell to
medical situations for reasons of liability.  However, it is not uncommon
for someone on con security to have medical training, and well, security
base might mention the existance of the problem on the radio as they are
notifying hotel.  If anyone with medical training personally chooses to
involve themselves in the situation, they are not doing so as a member of
the convention staff.  This keeps the con lawyer happy.

But I've just seen good old Suit Happy Califorinia.

lamont
From: zellich@STL-07SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Rich Zellich)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Adults-only cons (Re: Confabulation)
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:10:45 GMT

Oops!  I forgot to mention Contraception 4, in Independence, MO in
October.  Contraception is a clone (more-or-less) of Czarkon and is
also "different" (deliberately sleazy in tone, without actually
being _too_ sleazy in fact...but we have fun seeing how close to the
line we can get - a few people go a bit too far over the line and
have to be told to at least stay out of the hotel lobby if they're
going to dress like _that_).

   October 30-November 1 (Missouri - Kansas City area)

      Contraception 4
      P.O. Box 1046
      Lee's Summit, MO  64063

Cheers,
Rich
From: ubnareho@mcs.Drexel.edu (Brian S. Narehood)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: Does anyone remember _Nighthawk_?
Date: 16 Aug 92 00:07:01 GMT
Organization: Drexel University



Eric> Do you mean Lady Hawk?  If not, then I don't recall everi
      seeing this movie.


     I don't think he is refering to movie Ladyhawke.  I not sure but
 it sounds like the movie Hawk, The Slayer.  Which has in it's opening
 credits a scene in which a green stone/gem called the mind stone is
 levated to the pammel of the sword which sets into a claw which closes
 around the stone, making the mind sword.  The only other thing I can
 rember about this moive is tha Hawk picks up a traveling campanian,
 which is an elf that can fire a bow at amasing speed.
From: slb3y@cc.usu.edu (Punk Rocketeer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: amazonia
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:48:20 MDT
Organization: United Order of Non-joiners

murphy@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU (Keith Murphy) writes:
> For a complete list of these films, you have to include "Pirannah 
> Women of the Avacado Jungle" starring "Swamp Thing" veteran Adrienne (sp?)
> Barbeau (sp?).
> 					Keith Murphy

     That's *Cannibal* Women in the Avocado Jungle (of Death?), for
those of you having a hard time finding it.  Shannon Tweed has the
lead role as the anthropologist, and Bill Maher is the jungle guide. 
(His qualification:  "I have the guide book."  "We'll buy our own copy." 
"It's out of print.")

     This is a fun movie.  It spoofs California, feminism, macho guys
with guns, and university supplies.  I highly recommend it as a
brain-dead movie.
-- 
Patrick S. Clark | When the world's in trouble I am not slow.
Email is life!   | So it's hip-hip-hip and away I go!
Usual Disclaimer | (You should know this one.)