From: cranch@novell.com (Christopher Ranch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.novell
Subject: Re: TCP/IP routing via the DL-2000 possible?
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:54:00 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.novell
Organization: Novell Inc., San Jose, Califonia


ce591@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Allan Green) wrote:

Allan> Thanks to Chris Ranch for his comments regarding IP routing
Allan> via the DL-2000 card, disappointing though they were!

	De nada!

Allan> Given that I need a MAC-IP router, what are my options?  Does
Allan> anyone out there use a Localtalk network with an IP router?
Allan> Naiively, I might imagine that the following are possibilities:
Allan>
Allan>1) a box which plugs into the ethernet and localtalk networks
Allan>   and does the business...

	To which Mark Holden replied:

Mark>	I know of two of these: the Shiva FastPath (formerly Kinetics) and the
Mark>Cayman Gatorbox.  Both have their features, but I think I'd go with the
Mark>Gatorbox, as it seemed more stable to me, and has some neat features too.

	Either would work fine for this application; and there are others.

Allan>2) a macintosh which has an ethernet card and special IP software
Allan>   to do the routing... (would this Mac be dedicated to this task
Allan>   or could it be used for other things too?)

Mark>	The only product of this type that I can think of is Apple's Internet
Mark>Router, which requires a dedicated machine.

	The Apple Internet Router does not support MacIP gateway functionality.

Allan>3) FastPath - mentioned by Chris - what is this?  I've not heard of
Allan>   it and cant find it in my Novell "concepts" book...

Mark>	It fits in to category one, and it's very much a Mac niche product,
Mark>so I'm not terribly surprised that you couldn't find it in the Novell
Mark>book.

	It's not in there because it's no longer a Novell Product.

	And my esteemed colleague Daniel Seeman wrote: 

Daniel>The FastPath is a multi-protocol router in a box.  The box is small 
Daniel>and supports only ethernet and localtalk cables.  It can route 
Daniel>AppleTalk, TCP/IP, DECNET and others.  It has some pretty nice 
Daniel>features and has been extensively used in the field.  If you want 
Daniel>concrete examples, call Shiva Corp. (Cabridge Mass.) or talk
Daniel>with companies like Boeing or British Petrolium (BP) as these 
Daniel>companies use the FastPath quite a bit.
Daniel>
Daniel>There are other routers on the market.  Cisco (in Fremont Ca. I 
Daniel>think) makes a router box that has even more bells and whistles 
Daniel>than the FastPath (so is more expensive too) and may support the 
Daniel>functionality you seek.  Wellfleet (I am sorry if I spelled the 
Daniel>name incorrectly) also makes routers.  Give these companies a call 
Daniel>and they will help you out.

	cisco's 9.x release supports MacIP.  To my knowledge, Wellfleet
	doesn't, unless Greg Bruell has been cutting code in his sleep ;).
	Others are Webster's MultiPort Gateway, Compatible Systems'
	EtherRoute, and I think Farallon just released one.  I think
	Sonic systems has just release one that turns a Mac into one
	as well.

Allan>How practical would it be for me to write a TCP/IP gateway 
Allan>for the DL-2000 myself?  Obviously I'd need data on the 
Allan>Novell IP NLM and DL-2000 interfaces, but would this be a
Allan>serious proposition?

	To which Don Provan, another esteemed colleague, wrote:

DonP>If it were easy, we would have done it a couple of years ago.  The
DonP>problem is that there isn't *really* such a thing as IP on localtalk.
DonP>I'm not a real expert on localtalk, but from what i understand the way
DonP>TCP/IP packets are carried on localtalk requires extensive support
DonP>from both the TCP/IP and the Appletalk stacks.  It's not as simple as
DonP>just writing a localtalk driver and binding IP to it.

	Many things can go wrong.  Just take a look at the latest Internet-
	Draft on MacIP if you want more info (on your local nic, or anonymous
	ftp at ftp.novell.com in the ietf directory).  Serious proposition?
	Yes, serious effort.  Let me know if you really want to do this;
	I'd be willing to offer some advice.

DonP>There was a proposal last year (by the very same Chris Ranch) to carry
DonP>TCP/IP packets on localtalk networks in a way more like they're
DonP>carried on normal networks, but i don't think anyone did anything
DonP>about it due to localtalk's somewhat limited future.

	When I proposed this at last summer's IETF, the apple-ip working
	group collectivley threw up on my shoes (except for one), with
	the main complaint being if we provide another way of doing things,
	that would square the number of problems in the field (like trying
	to do raw IP on LT to a MacIP gateway, and MacIP client to an IP
	router supporting only raw IP on LT.

	Given that LocalTalk is not the wave of the future ;), I would
	suggest just setting up a MacIP gateway somewhere on your internet.
	FastPath 4's can be had for cheap, these days.

	Chris
---
Chris Ranch
Internetworking Products Division
Novell, Inc.  San Jose, CA
(408)473-8667  cranch@novell.com
I may work for Novell, but I don't speak for them...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.novell