HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: awarding awards 
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:47:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.180026.12092@news.stolaf.edu> moore@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore) writes:

> Very often in this Society, a well-deserving gentle is given an award
> for their excellence in some area.
> All too often, they are not present at the Court where this is awarded.
>
> This happens, much to the consternation of those wishing to recognize
> this person, as well as the royalty awarding the award.
>
> My suggestion to remedy this: have such awards be given over to the
> local Baron or Baroness, to be handed out by "proxy"...

This is not a new idea.  It has been done, even in your own kingdom.
Better idea:

Get rid of the "SURPRISE!" factor.  Phone the guy up in advance, ask
him if he can make it, tell him why, and if he can't, then you can
just reschedule it.  If he can, then he can also tell his friends,
maybe lay in some extra beer for a party afterwards, maybe have a gift
ready in return...

The surprise award thing was cute the first few thousand times, but
it's really gotten old.  And it really isn't worth the trouble and
headache just so you can go around beforehand and say "you really
ought to be in court tonight...no special reason", and go around
afterwards and say "you should have seen the look on her face!"

> In service to the servants of the Dream,

In service to those in service to the servants of the Dream...

Aryk "Service with a Smile and a Stab" Nusbacher
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period calendar; Nonfighter kings; Drachenwald ideas
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:13:53 GMT
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: schuldy@progress.COM's message of Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:30:11 GMT

William de Corbie here.

Tibor asks whether it is really necessary to have, as I said earlier,
"some provisions for the conduct of theme events, stating
clearly that they are allowed -- especially if "standard SCA
reality" shall be temporarily suspended".

I meant that the Crown may need to define the right for people
to hold events where "the King" does not refer to the SCA King
but to e.g. Richard Lionheart, and where we may for instance
have theatrics of a kind that involves people playing the part
of Dukes and other high-ranking people without having those
titles and ranks in the SCA. -- By "theatrics" here I am not
referring to a play on a stage, but rather to stuff that would
be done as an integral part of the event itself.

The need for an explicit definition seems obvious: we are rather
touchy about things like ranks and titles, and people need to be
made aware of that temporarily waving the standard SCA reality is
approved by the Crown.

William
From: gleason@scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldric Questions...
Date: 4 Jan 93 16:35:10 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Loral Space and Range Systems, Sunnyvale, CA


Good People,

We of the SCA it is said, are to be of good and gentle birth.
We aspouse (sp) the virtues of gentility and chivalry; and
the understanding that these qualities as well as those others
of mutual respect and caring are to be used towards all those
above, below, and equal to our own station.

Then, I must ask, why is it that we gentle people of the Rialto
give words with each other with a harshness and inflexability
equal to two alley cats battling for the smallest amount of
territory?  Must we tear down our fellows, to which we have so
*much* in common, because thay disagree or are less informed?

Nay good gentles, say that is not so.  Reaffirm our kinder
parts and let the good nature our persons be shown again!


This I say, true of heart and filled with brotherly love for
all who will return in kind,

Parlan MacGillievray
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dollar cost for awards
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:43:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

Well, I'm one of those people who thinks everything between AoA's and
Elevation to the Nobility (peerages of whatever flavour) out to be sent
to the bit bucket.

My objection to William's proposal is that it is a *very* high minimum
standard; if SCA shooting is intended to emulate military archery, which
is claims to do, a reasonable requirement is for effective draw weights
of 80 pounds or more.  (A better way to do this is to shoot 12 and 14 score
yard clouts with arrows that weigh as much as light war arrows, and to
shoot at armor and only count hits that sink the point.)

People put money and time into their hobby; a legislated minimum of either
bothers me, particularly as such a thing would, in my opinion, make the
whole 'awards are what matter' problem much worse.  I would much rather
see archery contents that had useful prizes (a dozen period style points,
a string and a string making lesson, etc.), and a filter based on what
you had to do to do well at the contest, rather than some flat standard.

The problem with saying 'authentic' is that you then have to *define* it.
This leads to a 'standard' which everyone then either follows(since it
saves them a lot of work to take it and go from there), tries to have
changed (multiply the heralds by N, where in is Babel), or rebels against
and does the elf ears thing anyway.

It also makes it harder to advance an art; not only do you have to advance
the art, you have to convice all these people with a high emotional
investment in a standard that you *have* made an advance.

Far better, I think, to set up a goal (shoot a 14 score yard clout with
a war arrow) and let people strive after it as they please.
If Nordmark's particularly keen archers get together and host a contest
(or the Ealdmari archers :), the goal is likely to be pretty good, and
to evolve much more readily than a requirement in law.

For one thing, we know considerably more about what was considered a
notable accomplishment in period ('cause that's how you get songs written
about you, and how you get into chronicles) than precise details of
equipment.  (For just about every craft I can think of.)

Graydon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
saundrsg@               "Praise then Darkness and Creation unfinished"
   qucdn.queensu.ca                   - U. K. LeGuin
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 20:43:30 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Tadhg wrote:

>  The point is that the "scope of the Society" covers a lot of time and a
>  lot of area. If we try to "re-create" all of that all at once, then the
>  resulting mishmash is nothing ever found in period, and so the underlying
>  objective is not attained. 

What "underlying objective"?  Looking at Corpora and the Bylaws, we find
that the objective of the SCA is to create "an environment which evokes the
atmosphere of the Middle Ages and Renaissance" (Corpora II.A), to promote
"research and re-creation in the field of pre-17th-century Western culture"
(Bylaws III).  It would seem that the objective you have in mind is
considerably stricter than the objective corporation has in mind.  

>  The people who got together to hold the first backyard tournament didn't
>  get together to hold a multicultural medieval Disneyland, they got
>  together to hold an Arthurian-romance tournament, and there is going to be
>  any consistency in the SCA that is the sort of focus that is essential.

Which of course brings us back to the question I ask a few days ago: Why is
consistency a virtue, and where do you derive the notion that any medieval
heraldic system was consistent in any meaningful sense?  I do hope that you
aren't proposing that the formal goal of the SCA is to be consistent with
Arthurian romance.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New Year's Resolutions
Date: 5 Jan 93 07:36:50 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

I resolved, that in the year 1993 I will avoid the following topics on
the Rialto:

- champions in Crown
- same sex consorts
- Michael of Boarshaven (I have second hand information, only)
- heraldbashing

Most of these were done to death last year (and the year before, and the
year before that, etc.) anyway.

So, this said, does anyone have any ideas about the proper physical
contruction and hanging of real ganafons (sp?) - or whatever the real
thing that SCA "banners" represent is?

Or, do any kingdoms actually have sumptuary laws in the Kingdom Law? 
There have been claims, but I don't recall precise citations?

Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: uplink@cwis.unomaha.edu (uplink 2099)
Subject: Not rejoining the SCA, thanks
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:38:23 GMT

	After a very embarrassing experience at Calontir's Twelfthnight
celebration in Omaha, I have decided that all the comments I've been 
getting from people about rejoining the SCA are moot, simply because I'm
not going to rejoin, ever, even after death if I can help it.  Why?
I went to Twelfthnight to look for a friend who I hadn't seen in three
years who called me the night before and told me he'd be there.  (As it turned
out, he never showed.)  That meant I had to get out my Renn-Faire costume
(NOT garb!), and since I'd recieved so much nice mail about being a bandit,
decided to go as Axel the Bandit.  Well, I am of a size that getting period
clothing is a catch-as-catch-can sort of thing, and I had to wear jeans and
sneakers because I had nothing better.  (I can't go barefoot; my podiatrist
would have fits, and I also have a very virulent case of athlete's foot.)
So I had to walk around half-in half-out of costume and have all the people
look at me funny.  So I decided I wasn't going to be embarrassed any more and
changed back to normal, MODERN, clothing.  Not ten minutes after this, I was
asked (asked?  Told was more like it!) to put "period garb" on because it
was "in the rules".  Here I was waiting to talk to a dear friend who I hadn't
seen in a very long time, and I get treated rudely.  So I went to the more 
public areas to wait for him (I wasn't about to put my costume half-on again),
and got more stares from people.  That's when I decided.  People who wish to
live in the past are insane.  We should look ahead to the future, and leave
the past behind.  So, all you crazies out there, enjoy your fantasy world,
because I'm going to be living in the real one.

Axel the Bandit/uplink

Formerly Andre du Giant, Barony of Lonely Tower

Send all email to: uplink@cwis.unomaha.edu
Send all flames to: someone else

If you wish to reply publically, don't; I'm unsubscribing to this insane
asylum next thing.

uplink
--
sig deleted
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: D020214@univscvm.csd.scarolina.EDU (Cecily de Catton)
Subject: Name Rialto
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:01:23 GMT

The Rialto, according to Webster's, is more precisely the district and
island in Venice where the Grand Canal is situated. I gather the meaning
isn't obvious to Italian speakers, of which I am not one. Does anyone
have access to reference sources on Italian place names?
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: antipathy to fencing
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:10:00 GMT


My feeling about this is that SCA fencing has exactly the same problem
SCA archery does; it is a modern activity in funny clothes.

If people were doing something that resembled the 1500's schools of
fence *exclusively*, or were (even better) also doing things that
resembled the use of those gladius sized swords everyone appears to
be wearing in manuscript illustrations and bucklers, then I would
be all for it.

Graydon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
Subject: A Goodheart Beats Again
Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:32:09 GMT

Ahh.... such travels hath befallen me that would well make a tale.

Indeed for it tis from from the mists of fay I am emereged again.  Tis'  
trooth mi'lords that I hath from thine company been parted and now I be  
returned.


Not that ya missed me......but:


		Goodheart is back.

(slight respelling in the name that is a bit more descriptive  :-)  )


Ahhh....and since it tis my fate to a ticklish troubadour to be I must now  
openly give challenge to all the ladies of the Rialto......

If we are encountered at any time, then you have full leave to tickle me.   
I in turn will take this as acceptance of this challenge and return the  
"battle" to mine full ability.  In wisdom keep this as no encounter should  
be done when either or any could be injured (i.e. drop something valuable,  
fall off something etc.)

...and yes I am very ticklish and a good tickle fighter.
:-)



Brian Goodheart, who now lies among the charred poultry of Burning  
Turkeys.





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Eulogy for Axel Bandit
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:23:23 GMT

Godfrey de Shipbrook writes:
                             Yet I have never encountered one where someone
  wearing an attempt at period clothing (even just a T-tunic over jeans and 
  sneakers) was roundly castigated while minding his own business, as our
  erstwhile former poster claimed.

Well, I've certainly seen it happen.  Once, I was wearing a mundane undershirt
underneath a tunic (against the cold), and the crew neck was visible.  Some
yahoo I'd never seen before (in a polyester chartreuse graduation robe),
complained I was dressing mundanely!

The most critique I will ever allow myself, if someone is clearly in mundane
clothes, is to walk up to them and say "I have some more medieval garb, if
you'd like to borrow it."  Commenting on a problem without at least some
attempt at a solution, in this case, seems rude to me.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gdaub@mcis.messiah.EDU
Subject: Armor exhibit
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:37:00 GMT

Greeting!
   Many thanks to the person who posted the message about the article in
Forbes about armor a few weeks ago.  At the end of the article it talked
about an exhibit in the Smithsonian in Washington, DC.
   This weekend I went to see the exhibit--it was great.  The armor and weapons
on display were from Styria in Austria, I believe from the 1500's.  There
was quite a collection:
    jousting armor
    black and white field armor
    Maximillian armor
    a complete plate horse bard
    dozens of burgeonets
    dozens of suits of infantry 3/4 or 1/2 armor
    many halberds and other assorted pole arms
    two-handed swords
    a stand of pikemen's armor and weapons
    a chainmail collar (with the smallest, finest rivetted mail links I've seen)
    a hunting crossbow with crannequin and bolt
    wheellock/matchlock pistols and arquebuses(sp?)
This was quite an exhibit!  Much of the armor is displayed so that you can
walk around and see the backs (and insides).  Most of the armor is more for
the soldier, with a few knight's harnesses thrown in.  Most of the armor is
black and white or blackened, but there are some polished suits as well.  There
are books available as well, detailing each piece with full color pictures
($45) and other books about the Middle Ages, armor, and armor making. I
really enjoyed this exhibit!  I would highly recommend visiting it if you
happen to be in the DC area:
     Austria: Art, arms, and armor
     Ripley's International Gallery (right next to the castle)
     (202) 357-2020
     open 10:00am to 5:30pm until January 24th.

.......................................................................

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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David Tallan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Saints' Days
Date: 5 Jan 93 11:50:35 GMT
Organization: The Internet

In SCA Digest V6 #7 I read:

> Someone, in the article that caused me to write about saint's days,
> referred to finding that a medieval saint had been supplanted by an out
> of period saint.  This is a misunderstanding.  If a given day is already
> Saint A's day, and Saint B is canonized in 1993 with the same assigned
> day (usually because B died on that day), then the day is *both* Saint
> A's day and St. B's day. No supplanting is involved.  The day is equally
> validly called both St. A's day  & St. B's day.  The reason St. A may
> not appear in a particular dictionary of saints is simply that none of
> them, not even the multi-volume Butler or Bolandist sets, is complete.
> If St. A was not particularly famous or relevant to modern life, the
> compiler of a dictionary may opt to list only St. B, as being more likely
> as a subject of inquiry.  This does not remove St. A from the rolls of
> the saints. At least for Roman Catholics, only the Pope himself can
> discontinue a cultus.

I believe I am being referred to here. I also believe that it is
perhaps you who are misunderstanding me rather than visa versa. When
I spoke of saints being "supplanted" I was referring to saints being
supplanted from those calendars of saints in popular use rather than
saints being supplanted from the official roles of saints. As you
point out, the calendars and dictionaries of saints most commonly
available are selective rather than exhaustive and it certainly
possible that some saints venerated in period have been removed _from
the collection_ to make room for a more famous or relevant post-
period saint.

BUT, while you bring the matter up, I was under the impression that
sometime within the past century, the Vatican did a "housecleaning"
of saints, removing from the rolls some of the more "fictional"
seeming saints (e.g., St. Expeditus, St. George (?), the dog saint,
etc.)

David Tallan (who, as Thomas the Pardoner, while not a saint,
             certainly recognizes their worth)
David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: robertdf@microsoft.com (Robert Del Favero)
Subject: Re: Recurve Bows (was Primitive FireArms)
Date: 08 Jan 93 18:10:33 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1993Jan7.033018.10797@reed.edu> odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin) writes:
>  Last time this discussion came up, I posted a few period paintings and en-
>  gravings showing the use of recurve bows in Europe (France, to be exact).
>  [...]
>  I do, however, have three "new" ones!  For a book entitled "Hunting Weapons",
>  we find reproduced a couple of woodcuts on pages 131 and 132.  Page 132 also
>  includes a list of pictures of people with "composite" bows.
>
>  Leonhard Beck, "Der Weisskunig" (1526):  Emperor Maximillian I on horseback
>   shooting a recurve at a bird.
>
>  Albrecht Durer, "The Martyrdom of St Sebastian", "The Four Riders of the
>  Apocalypse", "St Michael Fighting the Dragon" (c 1500 -- None pictured in
>  the book, merely mentioned as showing recurves)
>
>  Olaus Magnus, "Historia de Gentibus" (1555): Shows three guys on skis out
>    hunting with a dog.
>
>  Recurves are certainly in period.  'Nuff said. ;)

One comment, and a caution:
1. Comment - Many of the modern recurve bows I've seen on SCA archery ranges
don't look like any of the pictures I've seen of historical recurves. Graydon's
original contention was that the (modern) recurves he saw at SCA events
didn't look right, and I agree with him.

2. Caution - Often, when an artist from our period of interest depicts scenes
from the Bible or from the lives of the early saints, the artist makes an 
effort to give the scene an "ancient" or "oriental" flair by drawing equipment 
or clothing which is out of date or just strangely different from that of his
own time and place. Saints are commonly depicted wearing the clothes of the
artist's grandparents, and people from far away places are often depicted in
clothing like that of the artist, but with a strange cut or decoration.
(Compare Italian Renaissance portraits and paintings of current events with
the paintings of saints and religious events made at the same time. The latter
group of paintings rarely depicts the same clothing as the former.)

I'd be careful about using details of any of the Durer pictures for 
that reason. Albrecht may have known that compound bows were used in 
the Holy Land, and he may have known that they dressed differently from 
him, but he may not have known what those bows or that clothing looked like.

I'd be very interested in seeing the other pictures, though. They seem to me
to be more likely documentary than fantastic. Thanks for the references, Iain.

Vittorio del Fabbro
Barony of Madrone (Seattle, WA)
Kingdom of An Tir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sgg@tropel.gca.COM (Sheila Goodman)
Subject: Name of the "main drag" in Venice.
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:47:15 GMT


 L> lo'
 L>    Could some one please define "Rialto"?   Sorry, had to ask.

Name of the "main drag" in Venice.

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

----+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No, no you mean the Cavaliers with azure plumage......

(some of my best friends are........Tigger)
From: jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hoobah, Vivat and Hurrah for Geoffrey Mathias, Master of the Laurel!
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:39:53 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

Hail and well met!

I thought that some in the Middle and some in the East (Carolingia) would
like to know that Geoffrey Mathias, formerly of ?Jaravetler? and 
Carolingia, was admitted to the Order of the Laurel in the Kingdom of
the West on the 9th day of December, A.S. 27 by King Jade and Queen
Shaheena.  He was specifically praised for his dancing and shoemaking,
although his talents are many.

I thought many would want to know. 

Cheers,
Sir John Theophilous

As to the jesting, thanks again to Merowald and Dagonell, for
inspiration and documentation, and to Katrin again, for 
sources.  Tor is washed up, but unless the colors run may
come back later.
(ob. explanation: Sir Tor, the Queen's Own Fool (he was not
Nobody's Fool!) asked if he could serve her majesty, and
was sent out for a glass of water.  After returning with
the Water of Vinhold (wine), Westermark (beer), Oertha (ice),
Artemisia (fountained into the air, and some on the Queen)
he was educated by the Queen's Champion.  And then was 
released, after mopping up the wet spots on the stage,
and getting the ice out of the clothing and hat, etc.)
Nothing succeeds like success: the Prince of the Mists
has taken a jesture as well, now!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca