HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Same Sex Consorts
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:21:19 GMT

[I think I missed this one when it went by, and not having proper
attribution where I got it from, I have removed all attributions.
--whh]

>|> Certainly, the SCA would 'survive' gay and lesbian pairs on the
>|> thrones just as we've 'survived' women on the battlefield and
>|> Board members from places other than California.  

Only *one* currnet Board member is from California--and he isn't
terribly active.  (Though I grant everyone that he's been around the
Society a *long* time . . .)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams (Was: consort gender)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:09:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.195201.8461@odin.diku.dk> rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen) writes:

>... I've been browsing on the
>Rialto for the year and more we've recieved it here in Denmark, and I've
>been saddened to note the vigour of the historical reenactment movement.

You play your game, Hans.  Let us re-enactors play ours.

>If anything it seems to me that an insistence on historical correctness
>will drive out the dreamers. And if things develop to a point where a
>split becomes inevetable (note the if), then I think you should remember
>that the dreamers were there first.

The split is there already, and there are dreamers on both sides, thank you.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:03:12 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Hans Rancke writes:

>But my feelings are not really something that you have a right to reprove
>me for, is it? 

Aren't they?  If someone says he feels that all Jews are worthless,
lazy people who should be exterminated, do we have no right to reprove
him for those feelings?  Or do you mean simply that no one has the
right to reprove *you* for *your* feelings?  What you are really
saying is that no one has the right to disagree with your opinions.
In the US, at least, that right is Constitutionally protected.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:12918 soc.culture.celtic:5879
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.heraldry,rec.org.sca,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:47:38 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
>        I was in the National Heraldry Museum yesterday and took down the
>current High King's coat of arms (O'Connor-Don). Thought people might
>be interested:
>                Argent, A Oak Tree eradicated, vert.

Heraldry was imported into Ireland by the Anglo-Normans, and
was never part of its culture. In fact, by the time heraldry
was in existence, High Kings of Ireland were not. However,
heralds often retrospectively invented coats of arms for
historical figures.

Matthew HUntbach
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:26:00 -0500

From the pen(?) of Etienne de Montagu good greetings,
Not only is duct tape robbing us of the opportunity to find period solutions to
the problem of battlefield identification, it also deprives us of the
opportunity to experience what truly was a problem in the middle ages,
i.e.-death at the hands of friendly troops.  By all accounts, battlefield combat
throughout the period was characterized by confusion mixed with individual
action (as opposed to the tightly-knit small unit tactics which figure
prominently in SCA wars). My owmn point of view is that I joined this
organization in order to gain additional insight into the medieval mind and
life.  If this means getting clobbered by my own guys because I'm not paying
attention so be it.  On one occasion (Ansteorra vs. Outlands ASXXIII) my barony
as a group removed the offending adhesive from our helms on the grounds that it
was not period and we would not fight if forced to wear it.  Our King allowed us
to do so and we fought the entire war quite adequately without a single loss to
"friendly fire"


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Grand Pennsic
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:04:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.173606.27508@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
)T Archer says:
)  I still don't have it clear why the Pensic War has suddenly gained a 
)  politically correct name.
 
)Because the Kings and Queens of the Middle and East made it so.  In
)the words of Douglas Adams "This has been widely regarded as a bad move."

	Fortunately, 'widely' does not require it be held by a majority.
 
)Don't expect the Pennsic Mistake to be repeated.  I'm sure hoping it
)won't be.
)	Tibor

	I, on the other hand, wouldn't mind at all.  Once we got rid of
the effort to be cute in making up things to call it other than a 'war'.

Kwellend-Njal
-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
"If Microsoft can give up on OS/2, then perhaps there is hope for peace in         this world."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: davel@news.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Liebreich)
Subject: Re: A thought about Rialto
Summary: Never follow-up your own postings
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 18:00:21 GMT

Greetings (again) unto the (full) Rialto, from David Waxthorn.

I just wrote:
>
>You know, since the mail-to-newgroup gateway at MIT went down (thus
>limiting the content of rec.org.sca to those articles posted to it
>directly), it's been fairly peaceful here.
>
>Hmmmm . . . 
>

I just noticed that it's back up (the gateway, rather than the content).

Oh well.  No offense?

=========================================================================
David Waxthorn                                  David Liebreich
Principality of the Mists                       NASA Ames Research Center
Laurel Kingdom of the West                      Moffett Field, CA

          "Liege-lord?  I don't need no steenking liege-lord!"
                           doo dah doo dah
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: christer@sue.komunity.se (Christer Romson)
Subject: Inflammatory rhetoric (History v. dreams, period songs, consort gender)
X-Unparsable-Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 13: 01 MET DST
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:06:45 GMT

Arval! :
> More to the point, nothing posted on the Rialto can be construed as
> "bigotry and homophobia".  On the contrary, what we've seen is some
> carefully considered, reasoned argument why the Society ought to have
> mixed-sex ruling couples.  Perhaps those arguments do not convince you;
> perhaps they are not sufficient reason to forbid same-sex ruling couples.
> But they are decidedly not irrational hatred

I agree with this, and that the discussion is degenerating, but

> we aren't talking about sexuality: Ruling couples aren't required to be
> sex partners.

This isn't the entire story, Arval, and i think you know that. True,
Corpora doesn't link sexuality to royalty, and people consider it OK when
the ruling couple isn't romanticly involved, but in most places in te SCA
fighting for ones loved one in crown torney (if one have one) is considered
the thing to do. Corpora's denying that posibility to homosexuals. There
might be valid arguments for doing this. It might even be the Right Thing
To Do. It's (to me) quite posible that homophobia and bigotry isn't
operating here. But don't try to invalidate the sexuality/inspirational
argument! That homosexuals are forbidden to fight for their loved one in
Crown, is a result of the current rules.
 ----------------------------  
  |\  | |   /|   | |\  \ | /   
  | \ | |  * |  /| | >  \|/    SCA: Lindorm Eriksson, Nordmark, Drachenw., East
  |   | |\   | / | |/    |     Mundane: Christer Romson, Stockholm, Sweden.
  |   | | \  |  /| |\    |     Email: christer@Sue.KOMunity.Se
  |   | |    | / | | \   |   
  |   | |    |   | |  \  |   
 ----------------------------
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1992 11:17:36 -0500

Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: An Tir Crown Tourney
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 21:00:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta



The september Crown Tournement of An Tir was won by Sir Barak
Ravensfury, who fought to elevate his lady, Countess Lau, and
succeeding in advancing her state. 

The final was between Sir Clifford Ottar and Barak, with
Barak victorious in two straight bouts. Despite this, both
fights were hard contested, and beauitiful to watch.

As a fighter of the kingdom of An Tir, I was proud of my
brothers and sisters in arms: While as in ant tourney, there
were questionable blows delivered, never were tempers lost,
and all fighters were willing to discuss any problems there
upon the field. For their part, the marshalls did their duty,
staying out of any disputes until their opinions were asked,
and I wish to personally congratulate Graf Barak Langental
Earl Marshall of An Tir, for the very fine performance of all
of his officers.

The squires tournement was held the day before, in driving 
snow and sleet. I am told there were 85 entrants. In the 
tourney "most victories" was won by Rorik the Wendol (squired to
Duke Sir Gunnar Brunwolf) With 53 fights, of which 49 were
victories. I, Carolus Malvoix, (squired for the day, by email
to sir Strykar of Atalantia) took the prize for most fights
overall with 49, 25 wins 24 losses. I regret that i have
forgotten the name of the victor in "most chivalrous"...
any gentle who can post this *please* do so, as I am
quite embarrassed that I cannot recall him or her.

In all it was a fine tourney, though the weather was horrid
and wet and cold...

Hail to the crown heirs : BARAK and LAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde, An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking Tents
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:05:26 GMT
Organization: Tealach Rois Dubh

Beannachadh do'n Rialto o Shiobhan!  And especially greetings to Thora
and Angharad.

Hurray, I am now ready to respond with some degree of cogency, having
returned to the reference in question.

Thora writes:
>THE VIKING, the book so often said to be by Tre Tryckare, is actually edited by
>Bertil Almgren.  It was originally published by Tre Tryckare, Cagner & Co. (I
>believe in 1966, but I don't have a first edition copy).  Tryckare was
>apparently the person who had the original idea to write the book, which
>contains contributions from many people.  My Crescent Books reprint edition
>from the mid-70s does not even mention Tryckare in the publishing or author
>credits.  
This is because, as I pointed out early on, TRE TRYCKARE IS NOT A
PERSON!!!  It is a publishing house.  The name means "three drinkers" or
something like that (I'm pretty sure that's *not* actually it, but it's
definitely "something"-ers).

>The illustration of the tents is a modern line drawing; to my knowledge there
>are no graphic representations of Viking tents in the entire corpus of Viking
>Age art.
This is, in fact, the case with THE VIKING.  On the other hand, the page
in question (p. 272 in my edition) does say that "All of the objects
seen in the picture were actually found in a grave ship."  To continue
the quote, "On the left, preparations for baking are being carried out,
and at right, two tents have been put up.  The foot of a bed is
protruding from one of them."  Of the objects that I recognize, all of
them are from not just "a ship burial" but in specific the Oseberg
burial -- the iron cauldrons, the oil lamp, the kneading trough, the
stave buckets, and some of the tools are clearly the same as the Oseberg 
artifacts.  So, if it is true that all the depicted articles were buried
with the Oseberg ship, then I would be inclined to think that some sort
of publication cataloguing the find would list the tent parts.

>This book also contains a number of errors.  It has not been revised since its
>original publication, and some of the information it presents is now known to
>be faulty.
I would love to know a more accurate source.  I've been using THE VIKING
for lack of anything better.

>(I wrote an
>article debunking the women's garb in this book for A&S PIKESTAFF last year, in
>case anyone is interested.)
Could I entice you to reprint it here?  Or else to send me a photocopy?
I've always hated the women's garb in this book...

On the other hand, for photographs of the actual artifacts, I've found
no equal to this book.  So, let the reader beware, but let the reader
also be Creative (it's our middle name, remember?).

Slainte!
	- Siobhan

----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
Siobhan ni hEodhusa, ORL, OGB, etc.
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or.
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Black Armor (was Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle ) )
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:51:57 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee

In article <1360@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!utkcs2!athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu!news.Vanderbilt.Edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!ub!niktow!salley
>From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>Subject: Black Armor (was Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle ) )
>Message-ID: <1360@niktow.canisius.edu>
>Date: 10 Sep 92 13:27:46 GMT
>References: <1992Sep3.215610.21026@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> <eF8FqB2w164w@Control.Com> <1888qgINN3mv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
>Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208
>Lines: 22
>Mikjal Annarbjorn writes:
>> (An aside:  Can anyone tell me why, with most of the US in a temperate
>> to subtopical climate, black armor is so popular?  Or does testosterone
>> poisoning affect the parts of the brain controlling common sense?)
>
>Around here, most of the fighters who wear black are either members of House
>Elandris or wish they were.  I don't think the founder, _Baroness_ Morgan
>Elandris has testosterone poisoning. ;-) ;-) ;-)

Also easy to keep "clean" since it doesn't show the dings QUITE as badly.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:17:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.174738.14255@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> you write:
>Heraldry was imported into Ireland by the Anglo-Normans, and
>was never part of its culture. 
	And who says the Normans are not a part of Irish Culture? And
the Vikings? And the English? Irish Culture isn't defined by just
The Celts. They were invaders/immigrants, just like the rest. Irish
Culture is a composite of many peoples who just couldn't go any further
in their westward migrations. 

>In fact, by the time heraldry
>was in existence, High Kings of Ireland were not. However,
>heralds often retrospectively invented coats of arms for
>historical figures.
	Symbology relating to family/individuals
has been in use in Ireland since the bronze age. The normans brought
the formalised structure here in 1172 and it was widely adopted over
the 1200s. So formal heraldry has been here for over 500 years. There
*IS* a High King of Ireland, now, 1992. How do I know? Well we're
having a mini-event here where the peasants of Lough Devnaree go out
to the local Countess (Bevin Frasier of Stirling -- Katherine Kurtz)
to weed her garden. We have to walk up from the bus stop because her
husband is using the car to drive O'Connor-Don, the High King, up to
the north so install a clan head.
	(How's that for name dropping :-)
	If we do decide to put in a bid for Spring Coronet I'd absolutely
*love* to get him to come along. Obviously we'd have to call him Ard-Ri
to avoid SCA conflict. Fun though. Maybe I'll change my name to
O'Seamus-Don :-).

			Seamus

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Paying the Pennsic Piper, er, Autocrat
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 22:25:12 -0500

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writeth:

 CM> Aryk and I have been discussing the pros and cons of paying the Pennsic
 CM> Autocrat. So far, noone else has ventured an opinion.

All right, I'll pitch in my tuppence.  It's been my general observation that
whenever money is brought into a situation, the potential for ill feelings
increases dramatically.  Either the payers will think they're not getting their
money's worth, or the payee will think he's not getting enough.  On the other
foot, there are definitely expenses incurred, and much time spent that could be
used in more enjoyable or profitable ways - for us consultants, time IS money. 
I propose a middle ground: reimbursement of legitimate reasonable expenses (of
course this leaves stuff to be defined, but at least it gives you a framework),
for not only the Autocrat, but for ALL persons involved in the administration of
the War.  This would, I believe, broaden the pool of volunteers, since nobody
would be afraid of being driven to the poorhouse by the expenses, but would NOT
attract the overly mercenary (no offense to our "soldier of fortune" friends!)
as a salary would - let alone those simply unable to hold a decent job in the
Real World, and thus probably unsuitable for the job of Autocrat.  Not only
would this help fill the current needs for volunteers, but we might find
ourselves with more people volunteering than we currently need, and could
therefore, as some have hypothesized, spread out the load even more and make the
major jobs (such as Autocrat) less gruelling.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:17:56 -0500

In article <716037084.F00003@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>
>So when did boots start to have heels?

Late 16th or 17th century, I think.  


-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Date: 12 Sep 92 05:27:01 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Gentles!

Lord Anatar recently sited encounters of the roman legions (who did
wear uniforms) with say the visigoths as an arguement for tape markers
in our "wars."  Yes, there were armies which had uniforms and there
were encounters between groups with sufficient ethnic or technological
difference that identification was fairly easy.  However, what about
say the War of the Roses or 100 years War?  Do we have good iconographic
evidence for significant differences in the armour worn by French and
English forces at Agincourt?  Linguistic diffences did exist.  But,
using that difference requires verbal communication on the battlefield.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 16:09:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote something that caught my eye:

> In the West, if you're a member and you're an authorized fighter, it
> is almost a given that you fight in the Crown Lists. 

An interesting statement: So far as I know, your Crown Tourney lists have
only recently topped 100 fighters.  That's certainly large by any kingdom's
standards, but think about your statement: Are there really only 100
fighters in the West Kingdom?  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gsouth@genome.wi.edu (Genome South user)
Subject: Re: The most wonderful book in the world
Organization: Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:23:11 GMT

>Mistress Thora has just loaned me the most wonderful book in the world.  It
>is "Mediaeval European Jewellery", by Ronald W. Lightbown (1992: Victoria
>and Albert Museum).  I don't know how much it costs, but if you have to ask
>you can't afford it.

I saw it at the war.  I think it was about $200.

Ursula/Joyce
jcmill@eagle.mit.edu