From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: Jews for Germans
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:30:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.120516.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
>In article <C0F2C0.D76@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:

>> Why is it that you continually assume that every individual who is of a
>> certain nationality is like other people of that nationality?
>> 
>I don't know, why is it?  In the case of Germans, there are good ones and
>bad ones but far, far too many are racist pigs (and I don't mean the tiny
>minority who attack foreigners, but the high percentages of Germans who
>give anti-foreigner responses to public surveys).

Many people in the U.S. would give the same responses.  When I was in
the International Students' Club at the university I used to attend we
were often discriminated against by not only the other students, but
even by the administration at the university.  Some frat boys who were
having a party down the hall from one of our functions actually grabbed
an American girl from outside our reception and told her to stay away
from all the foreigners.
 
>> Not every German is a Nazi or Nazi supporter.  There are many bad
>> characteristics that bigots like to attribute to all Jews also.  Is this
>> alright considering that some Jews do possess these characteristics?
>
>Yes, it's fine with me.  Jewish characteristics you mention are present in
>a large number of jews to some extent - certainly I recognise them in myself
>and in most jews that I know.  Would you try to deny that people have national
>and racial characteristics?  Is it only racist to talk about the bad characteristics?

Which characteristics would those be?  Do Jews from all over the world
have these characteristics?  And how could they be racial
characteristics since Jews are not a race?

>Would you object to 'the Thais like hot food?', 'the Chinese are good with numbers?'

This is definitely not on the scale of hating an entire nation of people
because of the views of some or the actions of their grandfathers.

>It's extremely naive to respond to accusations against a nation with ' it's not
>valid because it doesn't include all of them', and disingenuous too.  

No, it is not naive.  Hating an entire nation of people is taking the
easy way out.  It is much harder to look past my hatred and recognize
that most present day Germans are not the Germans who killed most of my
family.
 
Would you
>insist that I qualify the above statements about Thais and Chinese with 'but not
>all of them'?  
Actually, yes I would.  It is wrong to assume that because a person is
Chinese he would be better "with numbers" than someone from a race or
group who is not known for being "good with numbers".
 
>Anyway you're in the US, so what do you know about the Germans?
I've met several Germans in Israel who have spent years working there
because of guilt they feel for what their grandparents did.  And I know
enough not to make blanket statements of hatred about a whole nation.

I can say I hate nazis, it is wrong however to say that I hate Germans
because the Nazi movement began in Germany.  The neo nazi movement has a
lot of supporters in the U.S. also.  Should I hate all Americans?  

>Laurence

-Keren  

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german