HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:30:23 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin) said:

>Like your 12-12/200/3.70 pitcher, the _value_, then, is measured by the 
>production he is providing, given that they would have had to pitch *somebody* 
>for those 200 innings.  His _contribution_ to increasing or decreasing the 
>team's winning percentage from .500 is virtually nil.  

That summarizes what I was trying to say quite well.  Contribution is not
the same as replacement value, and *both* are interesting, for different
reasons.

>Dave, if we all agreed to use this terminology (or something else that 
>distinguishes between the two measures), would you still have any doubts that 
>a SS with an SLG 50 points above average (or 100 above, or whatever) is more 
>*valuable* than the 1B slugging +50 (or +100...)?  

I *never* had any such doubts.  It's better to have the shortstop.  Or the
23-year-old rookie.  Or the multi-position defensive player.  Or whichever
of the two would be harder to replace in the future.  

>You will claim, of course, that they make equivalent _contributions_.

Actually, that they *made* (or "are making") equivalent contributions.  The
extra value resides in what happens if the status quo changes, not in the
status quo.  Tony Phillips has extra value over an equally above-average
first baseman because Tony Phillips can insert his skills into the lineup
in many defensive positions, so that when a starter goes down you can bring
up your best replacement at any one of those positions and move Phillips, 
rather than bringing up the specific replacement at the injured position.
That doesn't change his contribution.

>In that case, I wonder:
>Does it make any difference (in terms of run-scoring ability, and hence, in 
>terms of wins and contributions) whether a team's .360 cumulative slugging 
>average comes from one 1.000 slugger and eight .280 sluggers, or from nine 
>.360 sluggers, or from eight .405 sluggers and one .000 slugger?

As far as I can tell, no difference over the range of distributions you're
liable to see in real life.  Possible exception: Detroit Tigers for the last
few years.



-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Organization: NSSL
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:20:22 GMT

In article <C17w2o.8BB@Novell.COM> dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich) writes:
>In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>>Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:
>
>>>There was talk of moving Ryno back to third when Griffen got
>>>to the majors. He was thought to be THAT good. Well anyway Ryno became 
>>>more than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in
>>>history
>
>> Hee hee.
>> 
>> Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...
>
>Not only do many people in Chicago believe this, but elsewhere too. And  
>all of these people are not merely "parochial" fans, but also various  
>analysts, historians, coaches, managers, players...
>
>Hee hee.

Of course, when you get to the analysts and historians groups, you hear
the names Collins, Hornsby, and Morgan a lot more often than the name
Sandberg.

Hee hee.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: '34 & '36 Braves (was Re: Why Rabbit is in the Hall)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:30:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.170824@IASTATE.EDU> tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan24.174710.16913@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>> In article <21JAN199323511961@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
>(Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>> >In article <1993Jan20.012605.27165@Princeton.EDU>, roger@astro.princeton.edu
>(Roger Lustig) writes...

>> >>(Oddly enough, the 34 and 36 teams weren't all that bad.  Anyone know what 
>> >>the story was?)

>> >	When your #2 starter strikes out 34 men in 210 innings, in any
>> >age, you have problems.  Having no power or average doesn't hurt either.
>> >Without Wally Berger (34 HRs, .295, 130 RBI for a team with no on-base)
>> >this team had nobody else even remotely memorable (Rabbit and Babe
>> >retired early in the year)

>> Right.  Now, how did they *get* so bad?  So bad so fast?  And how did 
>> they recover to mediocrity so soon?

>I'll offer a consideration:  maybe they weren't _really_ all that bad in '35.

Then they were the hardest-luck team of all time.  Here are the W totals
for the seven years 1932-1938:

77, 83, 78, 38, 71, 79, 77

(154-game season, 77 = .500.)

So, not counting missed games, they were a couple games over .500 
for the three seasons preceding, and about a game under .500 for the 
three following.  In 1935, they were worse than the '62 Mets, percentagewise.

That's the biggest sproinnnggg of the plexiglass in baseball history.

Roger
>-Tom


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wayne@ultra.com (Wayne Hathaway)
Subject: Braves schedule question
Reply-To: wayne@ultra.com (Wayne Hathaway)
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 18:33:48 GMT

Off the wall question of the week:  Could some kind sould please tell
me where and when the Braves are playing on April 14, 1993?  Thankee.

    Wayne Hathaway               domain: wayne@Ultra.COM
    Ultra Network Technologies     uucp: ...!ames!ultra!wayne
    101 Daggett Drive             phone: 408-922-0100 x132
    San Jose, CA 95134              FAX: 408-433-9287
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Baines to Baltimore?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 10:02 EST
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <8810@news.duke.edu>, fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu writes...
>Does this mean that if your GM goes around signing aging players, especially
>utility infielders, that he's Schuerholtzing?

	No, that's called "Harazinment".
	
>Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
>fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
>bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
>				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!
> 
>				Walt Kelley

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason A. Miller				|		"some doctor guy"
===============================================================================
"doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu"		|"Give me a guy who has talent, and
The Johns Hopkins University		| that's all, and give me a gamer,
Baltimore, MD  21218			| and the gamer'll find a way to beat
					| you every time "
					|  Buck Showalter on Spike Owen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: maury wills is funny.
Date: 28 Jan 93 22:29:46 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken


maury wills was on the local radio station recently.

after chastising brock and henderson (well, a little chastising.
 "they're sliding the wrong way, but since they've been succssful,
 i guess it's ok"), he mentioned how he would help the mets get
 an extra 10 wins a year.

*10* wins!!!!!  think about that for a minute.

another announce said "well, all we have to do is get 4 of maury's
buddies
 in here, and the mets will have the race in the bag".
ha ha.

- bob gaj
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rsykes@AFIT.AF.MIL
Subject: Daryl Boston was signed by . . .
Organization: Air Force Institue of Technology, WPAFB OH
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:34:17 GMT

According to sources Daryl Boston was signed by the
Colorado Rockies.  Look for the baseball update file
that is being posted here periodically about all
the transactions that have went on.

  |\/\/\/|  
  |      |  
  |      |  
  | (o)(o)  
  C      _)    the Enforcer
   | ,___|  /  rsykes@afit.af.mil
   |   /    
  /____\   -The Slaughter House of Failure, is NOT in my Destiny!
 /      \ 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: szs@world.std.com (Stephen Z Stein)
Subject: Re: Batting Average Inversely Correlated with Offense?
Keywords: pure sabermetrics
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:48:01 GMT

OK, it took a while but here's my analysis of AA vs BB:
 
Name   PA  AB  H  2B 3B HR  TB BB   BA     OBP   SLG 
AA    500 465 140 33  2  3 186 35  0.300  0.349  0.400
BB    500 434 109 33  2  9 173 66  0.251  0.350  0.399
 
(Notice simple Runs Created = OBP*TB gives a 4.5 run edge to AA.)
 
So which would you rather have: 37 singles or 31 walks and 6 home runs?
 
Using the situational expected runs tables from Pankin's
1988 GABSB, I've calculated that:
 
a walk is worth 0.27 runs
a homer is worth 1.46 runs
a single is worth 0.63 runs
(assumptions: 50% of the singles move a runner from first to third
              75% of the singles score a runner from second
             100% of the singles advance all runners at least one base.)
 
(I have discovered a truly marvelous derivation of these numbers
but the buffer is too small to contain it.  Perhaps all I've done is
re-derive Linear Weights.)
 
AA gets 37 singles = 23.31 runs
BB gets 31 walks + 6 HRs = 8.37 + 8.76 = 17.13 runs
 
If I've still got 2 significant figures by now, AA gets a 6 run edge.
 
Is this a proof that RC overvalues HR or maybe walks?
 
- Steve Stein


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:19:48 GMT

In article <2531@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes:
>
>So, for example, the answer to "How can you say that a 12-12 pitcher with
>200 innings is 'worthless'" is (a) that's an above-average performance, I'll
>bet; (b) not 'worthless' but 'win-neutral', which is different, and (c)
>because the ability to pitch lots of innings has prospective value (as a 
>hedge against having to use a worse pitcher), but no *retrospective* value
>beyond the quality of those innings.
>
>Is this more clear?

Not really.  For your purposes, any baseline will do.  Using your
argument, since we are interested in winning pennants, why not compare
players to the average player on a pennant-winning team?  Barry Bonds
adds a certain amount, which is balanced by the now-more-negative
contribution of Jeff King.  And so forth.

If you are asking the question of "how many games will the team finish
above .500", it might make sense to use the league average as a
baseline.  But you might as well ask "how many games will the team
finish above .250 (or whatever replacement-level is)."

And I still disagree about the Pirates and Bichette.  The Pirates at
the start of the season did not have a surplus of outfielders.  They
do not (as far as I know) have many top OF prospects in the minors.
They are unlikely to have a team in the next five years where *all*
of their outfield slots are filled by players better than Bichette.

Therefore it seems to me that if they could sign Bichette to a 3-year
$200,000/year contract, that it would make sense for them to do so.
And they would improve their team by the signing (though maybe not by
a lot).

Of course, just because one such signing has value doesn't mean that
50 such signings would have 50 times that amount of value.  And if
Bonds were 10 times as valuable (number out of thin air), five Bonds
would be worth more than 50 Bichettes to the team.

But generally we talk about the marginal value of adding a player,
since most of the team is filled by players out of the farm system.

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:10:40 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1993Jan25.171916.16426@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>In article <1993Jan23.194401.6461@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>)In article <1993Jan22.180857.16945@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>)>Unfortunately, though perhaps nobody on the *net* is arguing that
>)>organizations shouldn't be able to ban all reporters from the locker rooms,
>)>it appears to be the case that the Commission has decided that they shouldn't
>)>be able to do so.
>)
>)Which Commission is that?
>)
>)Sherri Nichols
>)snichols@adobe.com
>)
>)
>
>The one who fined Wyche $30,000.  Dunno the official title.

Wyche would have been fined by the NFL Commissioner, not by a Commission.
And you have yet to establish that Wyche was fined by the Commissioner for
banning all reporters from the locker room, while providing access to the
players in another fashion.

You've been making a number of claims in this thread, but you've been doing
it based on half-remembered stuff, not facts.  Might I suggest that if this
topic is really of concern to you, that you do some research on the
subject?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Giants Announce Ticket Price Reduction
Keywords: Wonders
Organization: Pitzer College
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:38:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.184939.18308@netcom.com> michaelh@netcom.com (Michael Hernandez) writes:
>The SF Giants(sounds good, doesn't it?!), announced they
>will reduce ticket prices in the Upper Reserve Sections
>of Candlestick Park.  This reduction is a response to a 
>poll that indicated families could not afford to attend
>games at the current price levels.
>
I have in past year collected ticket prices for each team from the McPaper.  
Maybe I can beat them to the punch this year (besides, they aren't really 
trustworthy, are they?):  Please mail (don't post -- I'll collect and 
distribute in a single file) the ticket prices for major or minor league 
teams in your area.  Please give prices by classification.  If you happen to 
know how many seats are available at each price, I would greatly appreciate 
this too.  (Often it shows up in the media guide.)

Other teams have cut prices in the past after lousy seasons.  (Cleveland is 
one.)  What surprises me is that they do this after signing Bonds et al.  
Kinda puts a hole in that "salaries are driving ticket prices up" story, eh?

>What, a Major League Franchise is actually responding to
>their fan base?  Amazing!  

Not at all.  See Veeck, Bill.  (We miss you!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Whitaker vs Sandberg
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:57:17 GMT

In article <1k3gcsINN395@rave.larc.nasa.gov> jreisel@cscsun1.larc.nasa.gov writes:
>Because you're comparing Ryne Sandberg's worst seasons to Lou Whitaker's best
>seasons.  If you compare Sandberg's four MVP-caliber seasons ('84, '85, '89, 
>and '90) to Whitaker's stats for those years, it's no comparison.  

1984 and 1990 were arguably MVP-caliber seasons.  1985 and 1989 weren't,
though they were great seasons.

True, Whitaker and Sandberg haven't been in sync, but that speaks against
Sandberg if you value consistency. 

>Sandberg moved to 2B in 1983.  That year, he was the best defensive 2B in the
>NL.  Beginning in 1984, Sandberg has been the best 2B in the NL EVERY YEAR 
>except 1986, when he was hurt.  He has had four years in which he could 
>reasonably have been the MVP; Whitaker has had NO MVP caliber years.  

1991 was better than Sandberg's 1989, so by your definition it was an MVP
caliber year.  Sandberg sure as hell wasn't the best 2B in the NL in 1988 
either, and I'd guess he wasn't in 1987.  In 1991, he was, but Whitaker 
and Franco were better in the AL.  

>I think Whitaker HAS been an underrated second baseman.  He has been a solid
>player for a long time and is probably one of the 25-best 2B in history or so.
>But all serious students of the game conclude that Sandberg is one of the top
>ten in history.

At his peak?  Yeah.  On average?  Not necessarily.  We'll see how Sandberg
ages.  He's had a lot of subpar years for someone who plays in Wrigley.

Here's another look at it: Lou Whitaker has had six seasons better than
an average Sandberg season.  Ryne Sandberg has had six seasons better than
the average Whitaker season.  And Sandberg's average is going to be going
down.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Subject: Re: Brewhas intereseted in Brunansky?
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:45:30 GMT

In <1k6ei0INN6b8@uwm.edu> paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes:

>I heard on the local news last night that Milwaukee was interested in
>signing Tom Brunansky. Anyone heard any other news? I suppose it wouldn't
>be the worst thing that could happen. It would allow Garner to play
>Hamilton in center for Yount occasionally and sub Bruno for Vaughn when
>Vaughn is slumping. Bruno tends to be a streak hitter right? Between him
>and Vaughn, Milwaukee would probably have one of the best outfielders in
>baseball for a two-week interval about four times next season. Of course
>they'd have a rally-killing .180 hitter the rest of the season.

>Any thoughts on this Valentine, anybody else?

 Well, I'm not valentine but here's what I think....

 I really believe in trying to put a great team, a WS champion type team on 
the field. Brunansky is a bad sign because he is coming off what is a level
of what you could expect next year and thus he will probably be signed for
money which is above his worth. He is at an age where he will certainly
decline, making him an even poorer signing.
 I don't doubt that he could help their team next year, but I don't know if
this is ultimately what the Brewers should be trying for. I think they could
win.....but the odds are very slim and thus they should save their money and
spend it elsewhere (maybe on the farm system). It's down to philosophy: spend
money now and increase the chance that we "could" win this year or save the
money and spend it on the future. 
  I also think there could be cheaper options out there that could help their
team.

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)


   

-- 
In Stores Now:
The brand new album from Gord Niguma, Chris Nantes and Sean Andrews!
Songs Include: Yesterday My Hamster Died, The Death Of Kirby Puckett,
               Let Love In, Alcoholic Santa Claus......Get your copy today!
From: doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Ten Best Peaks (was Sandberg)
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:14:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan25.230005.14396@leland.Stanford.EDU>, dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes...

>Or
 are you asking another question --- "Whose peak was most
>impressive when compared with his career numbers?" Actually this 
>is a more interesting question because the answers are not nearly 
>as obvious as a top ten peak value list would be.
> 
>And I agree that Mantle and Koufax are good candidates for such
>a list.

	Would Dale Murphy qualify at this point?  He's had basically
five years of air since his great '87 season, although I don't
know what his career numbers are down to at this point.
	Also, you'd have to look at Don Mattingly at this point, given
the stages of his career from '84 through '89-ish, and everything after
that.
	Doc Gooden has also dropped considerably.  Of course, I don't
know if any of these guys would qualify for the top 10, but they're
among the best recent candidates.
> 
> 
>-- 
>Dave Eisen                               Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason A. Miller				|		"some doctor guy"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu		|		Go Go Orsulak!
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Eric Plunk Questions
Keywords: Plunk, Cleveland, Indians, Pitcher, Salary
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:26:48 GMT

In article <1jkp67INNjrm@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> kamikaze@wargamer.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>Three questions about Eric...
>
>	1) What did he sign for & for how many years?

I'm not sure.

>	2) How did he 'really' look last year, and

Decent.  A lot better than in 1991.  His wildness is still a bit of a
problem, but he has his hits (and HRs) under control.  He has good
stuff, and can probably be effective for a few more years.

>	3) Where does he fit into the rotation/bullpen in `93?

Not a closer, for sure.  They seem to be happy with Olin.  I doubt
they'll put him in the rotation.  His style is better suited to
relief.  Which leaves him in a set-up and middle relief role.

-Valentine
From: gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:12:57 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <jaeastman-260193094901@jmac.msd.anl.gov>, jaeastman@anl.gov (Jeff Ea
stman) writes:
>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if male reporters are allowed into
>the lockerooms of female tennis pros?
>
>_______________
>Jeff Eastman
>jaeastman@anl.gov
>_______________
>
I am under the impression that other than players, family members/entourage
members are allowed in - though I don't think opposite sex goes where the
female pros are actually dressing/showering.  I recall that at Wimbledon, past
champions are allowed in, thus Chris Evert wearing two hats [past champion/TV
commentator] does have access to the players.  To be perfectly clear, only
past female champs are allowed in, thus Johnny Mac or JC, though past champs,
would not be allowed into the female pros locker room.

Tournaments generally have an interview area, where, after a player has had
time to shower, calm down, etc. is interviewed.  Other sports could learn from
this.
-- 

------------------------
|   Gail A. Fullman    |
|   Manager - ADMO     |
|   Ext. 83113         |
------------------------