From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:20:42 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov9.045925.17489@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
> To paraphrase Raine Eisler, and Z Budapest, yes.
> 
> I have a fundamental belief that men and women are different 
> animals, and that women in power use power differently.  

Is this simply a fundamental belief, or is there experience or data to back it
up?

My experience is that men and women both are capable of and have used power in
a great many different ways, some good, some bad.  In my experience, women have
killed, raped, sexually molested their children, physically and emotionally
abused their children and spouses, and engaged in every single other form of 
power-over that human beings are capable of engaging in.  This does not 
distinguish them from men.

I have also known men who have not only actively rejected power-over behavior,
but actively and successfully used power-from-within as their method of
interacting with the world.  This does not distinguish them from women.

Neither is to say that all men or all women engage in particular behavior.  The
point is that the behaviors we observe in the world are behaviors that the
entire species is capable of engaging in, male and female alike.

> Maybe this is socialization, maybe it's genetic; but looking at 
> the situation we're in after 5,000 years or so of patriarchal 
> rule, I'd say it's time to start considering some alternatives.
> The closest thing we have to matriarchy these days is Women's
> Spirituality, and it remains committed to fighting racism,
> sexism (not all Dianic groups are women-only, BTW), homophobia
> and other exclusionary systems of thought.

I fail to see the connection to between the first sentence and the second.

First of all, nonpatriarchal != matriarchal.  Patriarchy + Matriarchy != all
possible systems of power.

Second of all Women's Spirituality has no monopoly on commitment to fighting
racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

Third of all, Dianic Wicca is not the whole of Women's Spirituality.

Fourth of all, can you show me a Dianic group in which men and women share
power as full equals?  In which the Divine in both men and women are honored
equally?  I submit that in any mixed-sex group where this is not the case, any 
claim to anti-sexism is a sham.  Nota Bene: This is *not* to say that 
women-only or men-only groups are sexist -- I do not necessarily believe so. 
However, I do maintain that any group that excludes all men or women on the 
grounds of that group's unsuitability for priesthood *is* sexist.  There is a
difference between being a women's group or men's group and stating that women
or men are not fit to be Witches.

> It's also worth noting that the most vocal proponents of those
> systems of thought are patriarchal men.

Your statement is very close to an attempt at guilt-by-association, but giving
you the benefit of the doubt, you are now speaking to a very vocal 
non-partiarchal man who is opposed to any system where one gender is regarded 
as superior to the other.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.