HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler)
Subject: Apologies 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 4 Sep 92 00:10:23 GMT

    I am new on the group and would like to publicly apologize for breaking someones anonimity.  I jumped to the conclusion that since we are behind computers all over the country that this was anonimity, but I was mistaken.  Sorry, won't happen again.  Secondly, I stated that I was not taking sides, but by the end of the post, I probably was.  I definitely did not intend to work someone elses program, or imply that mine was better than someone elses, but it may have come accross that way.  I will be more 



careful with my wording and tone from now on.

     It was my personal experience that the person who got me into AA told me NOT to work the steps, NOT to get a sponser, and by all means, continue to smoke pot, which she did.  No Joke.  Since I had a very bad experience with 'word of mouth' AA, I usually go by the book when discussing the program.  I would like to soften my tone and rephrase my question.  If their is anyone who has had an experience where someone applies the AA program to their life and while applying it, takes a drink.  Again, sorry f



or any stepped on toes.

                               -Eric
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 10:38:01 GMT

In <iscjcw-020992094018@ajax.ucop.edu> iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu (Jerry Wilcox) writes:

>The longer I'm at this, the more I wonder just who all the people I've
>harmed were. The obvious ones were easy. Lately I've been thinking about a
>couple of former employers -- bosses I had when I was actively drinking. I
>don't think I let drinking keep me from doing a good job for them, but I'm
>now wondering what they think. Perhaps an amends there is in order.

I don't believe that what _they_ think is all that relevant.  This is a
program of _personal_ recovery (implying the first person I think).
Since you mention them (the past employers) I would assume that somewhere
you have a feeling of guilt or regret about your association with them.
If that is so, then amends are in order.  If not, then no amends are 
needed or even desired.

-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sanders@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sue Sanders)
Subject: Re: step eight         
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:01:07 GMT

Phil,
I imagine I would not want what some of the people you are taking about have
either but I would like to point out that you said making amends is not
about saying you sorry, and I agree.  However, I feel everyone starts making
amends when they change they behavior towards someone else to be better than
it was before.  Therefor, the minute we walk into a meeting we start making
amends to ourselves.  Later, we may find that our own behavior is causing
ourselves pain.  (ie, choosing bad relationships, smoking....the list is long)
When we recognize our mistakes and change our behavior again we are making
amends to ourselves.  

I've hurt a number of people in the past and I have made amends to many of
them.  I treat myself a lot better today too, though I don't sit around
and contimplate how to best take care of Sue.  

Sue

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth)
Subject: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!! 
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:38:12 GMT

In reading this group for the last week or so, there are so many 
people who seem to think that this is the toilet for dumping shit
about landlords, jobs, etc. etc. etc. into that all I can say is:

Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!

James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Jim Puckett
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:13:43 GMT

dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson) writes:

>Just wanted to know if anyone has heard from Jim given all of the
>problems in Florida.

>	-Diana

Hi Diana!
 
	I'm far enough up in Alabama that all we got was several inches
of rain and a lot of wind....

...but it was strange to pop into netnews and see my name as the subject!

...reminds me of a time, not too many years ago, when I walked into a small
noon meeting and found out that I was the topic! When asked to share, I had
to pass, not knowing anything about me....8-)

love and service, 
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:23:24 GMT

iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu (Jerry Wilcox) writes:

>The longer I'm at this, the more I wonder just who all the people I've
>harmed were. The obvious ones were easy. Lately I've been thinking about a
>couple of former employers -- bosses I had when I was actively drinking. I
>don't think I let drinking keep me from doing a good job for them, but I'm
>now wondering what they think. Perhaps an amends there is in order.

The wife has an interesting way of looking at this:

"If it's an issue, then it's an issue."

love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu (Jerry Wilcox)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Date: 2 Sep 1992 16:46:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Office of the President
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: ajax.ucop.edu

In article <5pknb=n.dhawk@netcom.com>, dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
wrote:
> 
> Step Nine:  Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except
> when to do so would injure them or others.
> 
> Well, at least it's a straightforward step.  Nice word there:
> 'direct.'  Personally I'd prefer 'indirect' amends for some of the
> folks I've harmed.  Wouldn't it be ok if I were just real, real, real
> good for the rest of my life instead of taking direct action today?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> later, david
> --
> David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
> All music jars when the soul's out of tune.  --  Miguel de Cervantes

I've had some interesting discussions (perhaps arguments is a better word)
regarding the interpretation of 'direct'.  Face-to-Face is obviously the
most direct you can be, but what if that's impossible? What if you can't
afford to travel back to wherever the amends needs to be made? Can you make
amends by letter? Telephone Call? I've used all of those methods, but I
wonder if I didn't choose the easy way in some cases where I could have
gone in person.

The longer I'm at this, the more I wonder just who all the people I've
harmed were. The obvious ones were easy. Lately I've been thinking about a
couple of former employers -- bosses I had when I was actively drinking. I
don't think I let drinking keep me from doing a good job for them, but I'm
now wondering what they think. Perhaps an amends there is in order.

-----------
Jerry Wilcox - iscjcw@uccvma.ucop.edu
All opinions expressed are MINE -- I'd have a different job if the
University wanted me to speak for it.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:26:45 GMT

ben@media.mit.edu (Benjamin Kline Lowengard) writes:

<stuff deleted>

>This is interesting..does step 9 mean that my ex-girlfriend(who dumped me
>in the midst of step 4(OA)) will actually try to make amends? I'm not

no 8-) none of _your_ steps mean anyone else makes amends 8-)


>trying to be the angry young man here but I do resent the fact that I 

the fact that I resent something means that I owe amends, not that the 
person that I resent owes amends...check it out. Big Book chapters 5 & 6.

love and service,
jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:54:56 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Sep1.223812.13033@Cadence.COM> jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>In reading this group for the last week or so, there are so many 
>people who seem to think that this is the toilet for dumping shit
>about landlords, jobs, etc. etc. etc. into that all I can say is:
>
>Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!
>
>James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com
>
>
My God!!!  I'm cured of all my diseases and addictions.  What insight!!
What wit!!!  What a great contribution you have to offer the human race.
THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU !!!!


--Allen

==============================================================================
Allen D. Taylor       University of Washington   taylor@cac.washington.edu
Information Systems   Seattle, Washington  USA   Human 1st - World Citizen 2nd
==============================================================================
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Need Support re Job
Date: 31 Aug 1992 13:42:37 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:
> I don't know where I'll end up, but Noam Chomsky demonstrates that
> advanced computer science and sociology are not incompatible.

Normally I don't like to step on the image of people's heros even if I
think their heros are a little strange. Noam Chomsky is slim (morally
speaking that is). He is walking proof that intelligence is not a
guarantee of moral values. I am told his apologetics for the genocide
in Cambodia were disgusting and deserving of genuine hate.  Other than
that, I'm sure professionally he was fine.

Choose your heros carefully. It makes a difference in how you recover.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
From: altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler)
Subject: Richard Carnes, please clarify 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:42:51 GMT

     I read a while ago in the group, about AA not helping some people and actually hurting some people.  While I am not taking sides, I think AA should be defined.  The ORIGINAL phrase 'Alcoholics Anonymous' was the title of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous', not the organization.  The name for the organization was taken from the book, not the other way around.  The most sucessful sobriety movement of the day was called The Washingtonians, whose society fizzled out because of rapid growth AND NO CLEAR, CON




SISE PROGRAM TO FOLLOW.  Bill W. was 'elected' to write a book, however, the final product was to be reviewed by the other forty or so people in the few groups.  The book was named Alcoholics Anonymous.  I agree that many things that go on within the society are not condusive to recovery.  We are not the paragons of mental health.  However, Richard Carnes states: 

>Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to the existence of AA, I'm just
>saying its methods and tenets are helpful for some problem drinkers
>and unhelpful or worse for others.

Richard (and anyone else), if you are in recovery, I would bet that your opinion is in the minority. The way I understand it, AA has 12 methods (steps), 12 traditions, and a singleness of purpose.  "Alcoholics Anonymous has but one purpose -one objective only- to help other alcoholics to recover from their illness" -Bill Wilson, Address to the Medical Society, New York, NY, 1944.  Upon review of the methods and tenents of AA (as stated in the book),  I see nothing that would be unhelpful to an alcoholic de




siring to recover from his illness.  If you would, please clarify which tenents and methods you mean.
                                 Eric Altshuler

P.S. For the record, I am in recovery.  I base my program heavily on the book and what the medical community has to say about the disease of Alcoholism.
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 3 Sep 1992 11:14:39 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com writes:
>Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!

taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor) responds:
> My God!!!  I'm cured of all my diseases and addictions.  What insight!!
> What wit!!!  What a great contribution you have to offer the human race.
> THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU !!!!

If you liked that one, you're going to *love* this one.

	Maintain an attitude of gratitude.
	
Looks like you're half way there...NOT! :-)

James is right though. There has been a lot of garbage dumping going
on. I wouldn't kick up a fuss about it, but I took his message as a
reminder. We need to stay focused on the solution rather than the
problem. Otherwise, we forget what is important. I don't mind listening
to a person's problem when afterwards they tell me what they've done to
solve it. They may even have failed to solve it, but if they are trying,
they gain something too. No one gets out of a bad situation by crying
about it. When people see you are trying to help yourself, they are
more inclined to lend a hand.

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 10:32:08 GMT
Keywords: amends

In <5pknb=n.dhawk@netcom.com> dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins) writes:

>Step Nine:  Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except
>when to do so would injure them or others.

>Well, at least it's a straightforward step.  Nice word there:
>'direct.'  Personally I'd prefer 'indirect' amends for some of the
>folks I've harmed.  Wouldn't it be ok if I were just real, real, real
>good for the rest of my life instead of taking direct action today?

Yup.  Another one of those #$%* adjectives Bill liked so much.

-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson)
Subject: Baby Birthday!
Organization: Portland Public Schools, Portland Or.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:38:40 GMT

One year, two days -- and I'm still here.                   

Well over a year ago I started reading this group.  "Listening" to 
you all helped me feel not so alone and gave me some of the courage
I needed to finally make it to a real live meeting.  And I "keep
coming back", both here and to the other meetings.

Thank you all for being here.  You've made a big difference in my 
life  - one day at a time.  I've learned a reading this group.

So on my sobriety anniversary I got to pilot a raft down part of the
Deschutes River -- what a gift!!!   

	-Diana
 
-- 
***********************************************************************
Diana Thompson				     dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com
Portland Public Schools				(usual disclaimer here)
*    ************************************************************     *
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.drugs
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: let's not challenge differing opinions
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:11:27 GMT

rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:

>Can I suggest that we avoid challenging people who express opinions
>that differ from our own?  Arguing over who has the better program
>isn't the point of this newsgroup.

[I appreciate your coming to my aid, Robert.  Now I will ungratefully
reply to some of your comments.]

As far as I know, alt.recovery is the most appropriate existing
net-forum for discussions about what is effective in promoting
recovery from addiction and what is ineffective or harmful -- which is
surely a valid topic that may be of vital interest for a significant
proportion of the alt.recovery readership.  Such issues can be
discussed without criticizing or attacking individual posters, which
is definitely out of line.

Free and open discussion of the various programs and recovery methods
should be encouraged, for the same reasons that free speech in general
is beneficial and because there may be many people who read
alt.recovery to learn more about the pros and cons of the different
recovery programs.

>In the Al-Anon suggested readings, crosstalk is defined as "asking
>direct questions for clarification."  I would like to ask that we not
>indulge in this type of crosstalk.  AA does not need to be defended,
>and besides, the literature itself says that AA may not be for
>everyone.  

I don't see how a group of people can have a discussion without
"asking direct questions for clarification".  The place for AA-
meeting-like interactions, it seems to me, is AA meetings and also the
mailing list for AA members, not a semi-public newsgroup that
resembles Grand Central Station more than a closed meeting hall.

One of the principal complaints that some people have about AA is its
perceived dogmatism and anti-intellectualism.  If an AA member says
"Let's not get involved in discussions about whether AA is beneficial
or not," then those perceptions are just confirmed.  With 800,000+
members in the US alone, AA clearly "does not need to be defended" for
the sake of its survival, but for the purposes of rational discussion
as opposed to dogmatic belief, opinions and viewpoints do need to be
defended.

>Those other people, for whom AA may not work, belong here
>just as much as you do.
>
>Traditionally, AA is for those for whom nothing else has worked.  

Just as the other programs are for those for whom AA has not worked.

Richard Carnes
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor)
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:14:14 GMT

In article <9209031425.AA01810@mdcsc> mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
>James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com writes:
>>Poor Me, Poor Me, Pour Me another Drink!
>
>taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor) responds:
>> My God!!!  I'm cured of all my diseases and addictions.  What insight!!
>> What wit!!!  What a great contribution you have to offer the human race.
>> THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU!!!!   THANK YOU !!!!
>
>If you liked that one, you're going to *love* this one.
>
>	Maintain an attitude of gratitude.
>	
>Looks like you're half way there...NOT! :-)
>
>James is right though. There has been a lot of garbage dumping going
>on. I wouldn't kick up a fuss about it, but I took his message as a
>
>Alex Herrera
>uunet!mdcsc!ah

Of course, what I am about to do is what I am "accusing" you and James of doing
but then if I where perfect I wouldn't need the 12 steps or recovery.  My 
rancor at James, and a little at you although your post seemed [to me] much
more reasoned than James's, was what I read as inventory taking.  My attitude
is that sometimes people just need to dump garbage before they can get around
to cleaning up.  I chose not to judge another person's program, or lack
thereof.  If the post, or sharing at a meeting, seems to much like dumping
for my taste, then I ignore it.  I 'take what I like and leave the rest'.

But then again, if I followed that principal perfectly, I would not be posting
now or the prior (sarcastic) post.  Hey,  that's my reality.

--Allen

==============================================================================
Allen D. Taylor       University of Washington   taylor@cac.washington.edu
Information Systems   Seattle, Washington  USA   Human 1st - World Citizen 2nd
==============================================================================
From: millman@ursa.UUCP (Phillip Millman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Boo-Hoo Boo-Hoo Waaaahhh!!!
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:10:07 GMT
Organization: Bear Stearns, NY
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:
: 
: James is right though. There has been a lot of garbage dumping going
: on. I wouldn't kick up a fuss about it, but I took his message as a
: reminder. We need to stay focused on the solution rather than the
: problem. Otherwise, we forget what is important. I don't mind listening
: to a person's problem when afterwards they tell me what they've done to
: solve it. They may even have failed to solve it, but if they are trying,
: they gain something too. No one gets out of a bad situation by crying
: about it. When people see you are trying to help yourself, they are
: more inclined to lend a hand.
: 
: Alex Herrera
: uunet!mdcsc!ah

I have to agree.  Too many times I hear people whining about their problems
and not doing anything about them.  (Let me get my Asbestos Suit on)
Some people in my BIASED, UNPROFESSIONAL OPINION haven't suffered enough
to seriously work the program.  (I also think some nuerotics don't belong around
who never admit to having a problem.  I won't kick'em out 'cause I've
been wrong before ;-)

Let's get to the business of RECOVERY!

Phillip MIllman
millman@bear.com

Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3036 alt.drugs:15156
From: bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.drugs
Subject: Re: Alcoholism (was: Hate Speech Okay ...)
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:11:39 GMT
Organization: Ohio University School of Art. Athens

In article <1992Aug29.232241.24837@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:

>(In 17th- and 18th-century Britain and America per capita consumption
>of alcohol was far higher than it is today, maybe two or three times
>higher.  The *average* per capita consumption of beer alone in Britain
>in 1689 has been calculated at 2.3 pints per person per day; this
>calculation includes children and non-drinkers, and the beer was
>strong by today's standards.  Yet there was no awareness of an
>"alcoholism problem" such as is widely believed to exist in the U.S.
>today.  On the contrary, liquor was called "the good creature of God"
>by Puritans like Cotton Mather, was regarded as a healthful drink, and
>was routinely given to children in colonial America.  Drunkenness, of

Sure, any health problems, like those causing a median lifespan of about
36 years, can be directly attributed to frogs living in the stomach and
demons. A few leeches and your good as new.


-- 
*********************************************
*    bob church                             *
*    bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu           *
*    D-8195 NFS #27                         *
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.drugs,talk.politics.misc