HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcconnel@niktow.canisius.edu (Jeff Mcconnell)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: new golden puppy (again?)
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:54:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Hi (again?),

	I sent this out a few days ago, and didn't see any
response.  Our news feed was out for a few days so that may
be an explaination.  So, pardon the bandwidth if you've
already see this.

==================================================

	We have just adopted a new golden retriever puppy (actually
it's been two weeks already), and he's been a dream.  There are a
couple of questions that I have that most books just don't seem
to answer.  First some quick background.
	We got him from a backyard breeder.  (But he has great
ancestry on his father's side - paternal grandfather was #2 golden
for 1988).  Because of this, Barney spend most/all of his first 8
weeks outside or in a garage.  In the beginning, the tough part was
not getting him to go outside (both literally and figuratively), but
rather to get him into the house afterward.  Even now, if we spend
too much time outside, he forgets he's now an "indoor dog."  We are
also crate training and that is going well.
	Now for my questions:
1) Since he likes outside, there are times he indicates that he wants
to got out, when he really wants to play outside.  What I'm wondering
is what is a reasonable amount of time that we can expect him to "hold
it" between trips outside?  This is also important since I will have to
go back to work in two more weeks, and need to know what MY schedule
will be then.  Right now, he is 10 weeks old.

2) He has been holding himself through the night, but there doesn't
seem to be any connection between when he gets let out last and when
he wakes up in the morning.  Barney gets his last meal and water about
6:30, and is usually out twice after that.  My second question is when
can I expect him to sleep later than 6:00 am?  Is there anything that
can be done to encourage him to sleep later.  I've tried putting him to
bed after mid-night, but that seems to make him get up before 6am.

	Well, that's it for now, but even though we're fairly well read
on the subject, it's amazing how the books never seem to have the answer
that you really want :-).

Thanks in advance,
Jeff, Fred, and Barney

Dr. Jeffrey J. McConnell
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*		Silence = Death
USMAIL:	Canisius College			 	 ____________
	C.S. Dept. Chair				 \          /
	Buffalo,NY 14208 				  \        /
	(716) 888-2434					   \      /
Internet:  mcconnel@klaatu.cs.canisius.edu		    \    /
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*		     \  /
Never try to teach a pig how to sing.			      \/
It wastes your time and annoys the pig.		 	 Action = Life
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: bbrown@infonode.ingr.com (Bailey Brown)
Subject: Re: convincing people to go to responsible breeders
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:46:21 GMT

bets@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Beth Schwindt) writes:

>In her book "Every Night, Josephine", Jaqueline Susann talks about trying
>to get a poodle puppy after she had finally been converted to the idea
>of owning a dog.  She got lists of people to buy from, from friends who
>bought from them.  She called every last one, wanting to see a silver
>miniature male puppy.  Every last place, when hearing she wanted a pet
>instead of a show dog, hung up on her.  She ended up with Josephine, a
>black miniature that had been weaned early and was seriously ill from the
>day she arrived, buying her from a pet store.

When I was going about finding my first dog, I talked to several breeders,
and none of them gave me this sort of treatment.  They all asked me if
I wanted a show or pet, and I said either, and I ended up with a show
(long story).  When I got my second dog, I had the same good experience, 
and am still good friends with her breeders.  I have since bought another 
dog from them, and will show this one.

>I think that maybe her story is indicative of why people buy a dog or cat
>from a pet store:  they want a pet of a certain type and breed and don't
>want anything else.  If they're determined, and are tired of getting the
>kind of treatment that Ms. Susann received, they'll march down to the pet
>store and buy that puppy that fits the bill perfectly.

I think this writer's experience was atypical.  I think most people
buy from pet stores because they don't know they can do better
elsewhere.  

>Beth

------------
Bailey Brown                               "Above all else, confusion reigns."
Intergraph Corporation                                  
bbrown@casca.b11.ingr.com                              Procol Harum
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Subject: Re: looking for new dog suggestions
Organization: Texas A&M University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:50:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.140833.17179@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
    tmason@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Tim Mason) writes:
 
>>...Now the BREED'S
>>retrieving worth is 60/150 = 40%.  Given that if this trend continues,
>>the BREED will eventually be USELESS for it purpose.
>
>Wrong.  People who keep hunting labs breed their dogs to other hunting labs.
>The two populations don't mix freely.
 
 
Not so.  I have a friend, in Philadelphia, PA.  has a lab that has a
total of 2 hunting titles in it's entire pedigree.  He has twice breed
this bitch to a dog with at least 20 titles in the pedigree (including
the sire itself).  They do mix.  VERY FREQUENTLY.  Usually in exactly
that way (ie. the sire has a title, the dam has none).  As long as
the owners of the sire get paid for the stud fee, they don't care.
 
 
>As long as there is a group of
>pretty serious hunters using labs, THESE HUNTING labs will always be around.
 
And so I now have a choice between paying $2000 (wasn't that the amount
I saw earlier) for one where the breeders have been conscientious, or
$400 for the breed trash like my friend produces (that is what he
charges - and they sell quite well).
 
 
>>And if you dispute that this can happen, just look at how many Cocker
>>Spaniels there are, and how many got any kind of hunting title last
>>year.  Not many.
>
>OK.  I'm disputing.  Cockers are no longer hunting dogs because they fell
>out of favor as hunting dogs.  Other spaniels (and other dogs) became
>more popular AS HUNTING DOGS.
 
And just why do you think they fell from favor as hunting dogs?  Because
they (as a breed) became worthless for it.  (chicken vs. the egg).
 
 
>If you dispute this, just look at German
>Shepherd Dogs.  Many are not bred for Schutzhund, and these lines don't have
>the edge or prey drive needed for this kind of work.  Has the GSD lost its
>ability in this area?  No.  There are people (mostly in Germany) who breed
>for these characteristics.  The only problem is you need to look into a dogs
>pedigree before choosing it to do a job.  Shouldn't this be done anyway?
 
GSD's in this country (as a breed) CAN'T do schtzhund work.  Why?  For
the exact same reason - people wanted something something less from
them, and that's what they got, less.  This happened mainly during the run
of Rin Tin Tin when puppy mills couldn't keep up.  What has brought the
GSD back, IMHO, is the fact that it got such a bad reputation as a
family dog.  Only the people that really cared for the breed were left
to bring it back.
 
Germany never had that problem, they simply eliminated the bad pups
shortly after birth, and wouldn't let the sire or dam breed again.
That's why GSD's from Germany are regarded as superior dogs.
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |  Only 20 more days until the start of
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |           hunting season (in Texas)
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |
From: rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Need help writing Nasty Letter
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:53:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23444
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ



>  	Does anyone have any ideas, comments, concerns, flames, 
> whatever else that could help me? I'd appreciate `em!

yeah, forget it.

what mischief in the world has not been done self-righteously?
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: looking for new dog suggestions
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:41:07 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University

In article <1992Aug13.133529.11250@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
    tmason@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Tim Mason) writes:
 
>
>  CTM>don't get a labrador retriever unless you plan to have it haul
>  CTM>icy fishnets in from the ocean (yes, their original purpose for being
>  CTM>bred),
>>I would argue that WHAT the dog retrieves is irrelevant.  Duck hunting
>>IS still fulfilling its purpose.
>
>Well, then.  You agree that a lab who plays fetch in the back yard is
>fulfilling his original purpose.
 
Have you ever seen a retriever that will retrieve a ball all day long,
but refuse anything with feathers?  I have.  That dog has lost it's
purpose.
 
 
>
>Just a few comments.
>
>What do you mean by "original purpose."  Pre German shepherds were herding
>dogs before the "founder" decided to make them an all-around working dog.
>Wasn't he not using the GSD for its original purpose.  Things change.
 
Not so.  In the case of the GSD, there was no German Shepard breed at
all.  There were a variety of dogs that were used for that purpose,
but they were of wildly different sizes, colors, and tempraments.
The founder of the GSD *CREATED* the breed where none had existed
before (something that I don't think could happen today).
 
 
>If your worry is for the breeds losing their ability for their original
>purpose, I kinda agree with you, but there will always be some hunting lines
>for these breeds.  So what if the hunting lab and the family dog
>lab start to become two different breeds.  Maybe they should be.
 
*IF* they would be 2 distinct breeds, then fine.  I would have no
complaint.  That simply won't happen.  Look at what has happend with
(I believe) the Irish Setter.  There are, for all main purposes,
2 breeds now.  They even are beginning to look different (the show
version I believe is almost always red).  But they are still (officially
one breed.
 
PS.  I am not an expert on Irish Setters.  If someone else is, feel
     free to jump in here and correct my errors.
 
 
>Another comment:  for some dogs, the original work is no longer available.
>Do many people hunt with deerhounds or wolfhounds?  What about terriers?
>If work is no longer available, the dogs simply become pets, bred for their
>looks.  Oh well, what other options are there?
 
I suppose if I am no longer allowed to waterfowl hunt, then I will
no longer have need of a Lab.  Until then, I will defend it's purpose.
 
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |  Only 20 more days until the start of
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |           hunting season (in Texas)
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Need help writing Nasty Letter
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:49:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: ics.2A8C0040.17436
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine

In <1992Aug12.232139.18357@speedy.aero.org> amiranda@ariel.aero.org (Ann Miranda) writes:

>  	Recently my husband & I bought a female mini dachshund from
> a local breeder.  (not an official breeder, just someone from the
> newspaper who breeds dogs -- ie. part-time job, or hobby or whatever
> you call them).

First problem.

>  	"Shelby", our baby, is AKC registered, and one of the many
> reasons we got her was to provide an "outlet" for our overly studly,
> horney male, AKC registered, beautiful, mini doxie.

AUGH!  Second problem.  That's a REALLY POOR REASON to get a dog.  I
realize you said there were other reasons as well, but what makes you
different from the breeder you object to so much if you breed Shelby?

AKC registration means very little, by the way, in determining whether
a dog has the qualities to be bred.  All it means, and ALL it means is
that both dog's parents were AKC registered (and of the same breed, of
course).  It says nothing at all about the quality of the dog's
parents or pedigree.

>  	 All I know is that Shelby is a BEAUTIFUL dog, with the
> exception of the permanent, and ugly, hair loss patch on the top of
> her head, and the other hair loss patches that are beginning to show
> up all over her body.

I don't know that you have the correct information.  The hair will
grow back.  It will just take time.

>  	And, I have to take poor Shelby to the vet every 2 weeks for
> a mininum of 4 weeks, and possibly up to 12 weeks or until she is
> cured, for midoban baths, at a cost of $30 per bath.

You can give them the baths yourself to save some money.

>	And, the vet told us not to breed Shelby because, even if she
> is cured of the mange, the probability of her passing it onto her
> pups is high.

Listen to him.  Get 'em both neutered.  Do you want to be like the
breeder you got Shelby from?  What are her merits for being bred,
aside from the mange?  Probably low, since you got her from the
breeder you did.

>   	So, that brings me to the subject line.  I feel the need to
> write the breeder and express my anger and disgust.  I don't expect
> anything from her, but I think she should not be breeding that
> particular dog, and trying to get the money out of the pups that
> she is getting. (it seemed pricey to me, anyway ).

If nothing else you should let her know about the mange.  But she
probably won't pay much attention to it.

--Cindy

--
Cindy Tittle Moore -- Terrell's Chocolate Deduction (chocolate labrador bitch)

The rec.pets.dogs FAQ -- all eight parts -- is available via ftp to
pit-manager.mit.edu under pub/usenet/news.answers/dogs-faq/*.  There
is a mail server, email me for details.
From: mjohnson@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Marget Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Request for show info/experiences
Keywords: showing, AKC, Shiba
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:41:21 GMT
Reply-To: mjohnson@stake.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Marget Johnson)
Organization: Stakeholder Relations, NCR Corp in Dayton,OH

In article <2A92BDCD.11353@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle
Moore) writes:
>A "major" is 3, 4 or 5 points.  The number of points at a particular
>show is dependent on the number of same-sex-same-breed dogs the dog
>competes against.  The number itself is dependent on the popularity of
>the breed.  As an example (the numbers are ball-park, but not way
>off), a female labrador needs to win best of breed or best of opposite
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Whoops! Cindy meant to say "Winners Bitch" here, I'm sure. Points are only
awarded in the Winners classes, not in Best of Breed competition. However,
under certain circumstances (I can elaborate, if requested!)
MORE points can be awarded to a Winner if she also wins BOB or BOS.

>against at least 95 other female labradors to get a 5-point major.  A
>female bloodhound, on the other hand, need only beat 8 other female
>bloodhounds.  This is due to the greater number of labradors competing
>in show(s in the U.S. this added by MJ).

***********************************************
Marget Johnson, WIndwagon Newfoundlands
--
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: looking for new dog suggestions
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:29:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: ics.2A8BFBA3.16274
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine

What Terry said!

--Cindy


--
Cindy Tittle Moore -- Terrell's Chocolate Deduction (chocolate labrador bitch)

The rec.pets.dogs FAQ -- all eight parts -- is available via ftp to
pit-manager.mit.edu under pub/usenet/news.answers/dogs-faq/*.  There
is a mail server, email me for details.
From: mooring@ (Linda Mooring)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Another breeding question
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:38:38 GMT
Reply-To: mooring@ (Linda Mooring)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rikki

I know the debate on proper breeding has probably been exhausted,
but before you all lose too much steam I'd like to get your
opinions on the following.  (If you have to flame, please be
constructive.  Remember, this is not *my* dog, my mutt is altered.)

My brother has a beautiful ~2 yr old Rottie named Phoebe.  She's got
papers, but her parents have no titles, and her dam is probably a
little lighter tan than what is accepted.  Her breeders love their
dogs, but don't show them, most likely do not have a breeder's license,
and advertise through the newspaper.  Their dog's papers could even be
questionable.  These are very nice people, however, and my brother has
brought Phoebe by occasionally so that they can watch her mature.

Phoebe could sit, stay, "plotz," and retrieve at 6 months.  She's
amazingly wonderful with children even though she weighs more than 95
pounds.  She will retrieve all day, and insists on helping with any
outside work by carrying logs and moving stones.  She greets me
enthusiastically even when she hasn't seen me in more than 6 months
(I did see her a lot before she was 1 yr old).

She is in superb shape since she loves to retrieve and work.  All
muscle.  Lots of endurance.  She has been X-rayed and is not
dysplastic.

She's incredibly protective of her home and family, yet very tolerant
of new people once she knows they are friends.

I don't know much about Rottie breed conformation specifics, but
I've noticed that her snout is a little longer than the dogs at
shows, and her body and legs seem a little longer.  She looks skinny
compared to some of the corpulent Rotts I've seen at shows.
She does have good coloring, and a perfect tan maple leaf at her
tail.

My brother doesn't plan on showing her, but he really wants to
breed her.  He knows of 2 male Rotties of similar background that
he wants to mate her with.  He's got a list of people very 
interested in a puppy out of Phoebe.  These people want pets, not
show dogs.  My brother knows the cost of raising pups (his 
girlfriend is studying to be a vet).

I know my chances of getting a dog like Phoebe from the pound
is slim.  I love my stray, but he has few of Phoebe's superb
pet qualities.

So, with such a wonderful dog, and prospective buyers (which seem to
offer good, solid homes), should my brother avoid breeding her just
because of her dubious lineage and *possible* conformation flaws?

Does absolute perfection really matter for a wonderful pet?

Linda
From: nr@atomic (Norman Ramsey)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Scaredy cat dog
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:41:12 GMT
Organization: Princeton University, Dept. of Computer Science

Many dogs are afraid of ``open'' stairs (treads but no risers).  If
these stairs are open, outside stairs, try stapling some black plastic
over the space where the risers would be if there were any.
From: rgoldman@deepthought.unm.edu (Ruth Goldman)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: free black lab
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:36:17 GMT
Distribution: rec.pets.dogs
Organization: The University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM

I am posting this message for a friend so please do not respond to me
but to the e-mail address below:

15 month old female black labrador named "Queenie" needs a new home.
Her present owners are in their 70's and can't keep up with this
energetic dog.  She's had all her shots and the owners are willing to
split the cost of having her spayed.  If you live in the Albuquerque
area and interested in adopting a loving and playful black labrador
free of charge, please call Shirley at 277-5250 days or e-mail at
Harty@math.unm.edu
From: krieger@egnext3.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Karen Krieger)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: FREE German Shep Puppy
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:30:42 GMT

I have a friend who has a 4 1/2 month old puppy which his show quality  
bitch whelped. We would like to find someone who is interested in taking  
this puppy. 

The reason why it is free, is that it has fallen pasterns. 
He had sold the GSD (a female) but since the new owners did not inform him  
of the problem until it was too late, they have now returned it to him. I  
have seen other puppies with this condition, but it was corrected with  
diet and vitamins. 

This puppy is healthy, keeps up with its sister and mother, and otherwise  
a beautiful dog. It just looks kinda funny! The vet said that it would be  
fine and wouldn't have any more problems than other dogs - just that it  
may scrape its pads a bit more. You would be welcome to talk to this vet  
to get the scoop yourself. 

Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: mcfadden@bellman.lanl.gov (Russell McFadden)
Subject: Re: Request for show info/experiences
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Reply-To: mcfadden@bellman.lanl.gov
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:10:57 GMT
X-Posted-From: nimue.lanl.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article 13163@inel.gov, kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook) writes:
>In article <2A92BDCD.11353@ics.uci.edu>, tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes: 

****other good stuf deleted to save space*****

To further complicate matters:

>Definitions:
>  Class bitch - bitch who is not a champion of record.

For whatever reason Champions of Record can also be entered in the classes. This is not often
done and when it is it is usually a mistake, but still a valid class entry as far as AKC is
concerned. So the following notation is not quite correct.

>  Specials bitch - bitch who is a champion of record & may not compete
>                   in the classes.
>
>Another way a bitch can get points towards her championship is to go
>Group 1 from the classes.  If this happens, the bitch is awarded points
>equal to the number of points earned that day by any breed of dog defeated
>in the group ring.

I believe this is also true if the dog/bitch goes Best in Show from the classes, and hasen't
already taken a major by placing Group 1.


BTW, I'll be in Cleveland, Ohio at the Western Reserve Kennel Club on Sunday, Aug. 23, 1992.
Judging this time instead of showing, but if anybody who reads this is at that show and
gets a chance, please stop by my ring and say hi.

Russell L. McFadden
mcfadden@nimue.lanl.gov



Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Subject: Re: Need help writing Nasty Letter
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:40:07 GMT

Hey, folks!

Let's cool down a bit, eh?  Granted that some wording in the post
that triggered this thread suggested that Shelby was to be bred to
satisfy the sex urge of a dog.  Granted that, from what was
originally posted, it *sounded* as though Shelby's breeder may have
been an irresponsible breeder *BUT* we don't know that.  Careful
reading of the post shows that it includes the possibilty that the
bitch's mange was dormant and unsuspected by the breeder.  For all
*we* know, that breeder is perfectly legitimate and may be
producing excellent dogs.  While we don't *know* that, we also
don't know that it is false.

I guess what I'm saying is, "Let's try to stop jumping to
conclusions based on little or no evidence."  I've done that myself
so I know how easy it is to do.

As to use of "back-yard breeders" as a disparagement, I'd like to
see "irresponsible breeders" replace that term.  Just because a
person doesn't have a magnificent kennel with all the niceties
doesn't make that person an irresponsible breeder.  Use of the term
invites the kind of generalization that will have us regulated to
the point where only the puppy mills will be able to afford to
breed dogs.  Think about it.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov