From: saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Marla Belzowski (K-9's))
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Emptying out my files
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:54:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44347
Organization: Purdue University



Once again, I am emptying out my files and I've lost the logins of people
I intended to reply to.  So here's and old, old file I had from a long
time ago.  I don't intend to refuels the flame war on Koehler method,
but I can'r seem to find Dale's login again.  

SO here it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Dale,
 
 You write:

............
> Actually the real reason that I 
>write is that in your response you bring up lagging.

Thanks for the support.  

(I don't want to delete this so you will have a copy of "binding")
> You posted the following.....
>Heeling however took three weeks.  Why, because I use a
>binding method.  It involves holding the dog in the heel
>position untill they are comfortable with the heel.  In
>affect, you're not letting your dog make a mistake with the
>expectation to correct it.  Your teaching the dog the
>exact and proper way to do something.  Koehler teaches the
>heel as a "correction".  You say heel and jerk the lead.
>The dog learns that heel means jerk.  Product -- terrible
>lagging problems.  Correcting for lagging consists of
>more jerks on the lead.  I see a downward sprial here and
>that is exactly what happened to my collie -- lagging lagging
>lagging (belly to the ground at times).  When I retrained 
>her using the binding method, she understood exactly where I
>wanted her.  She learned that heel ment this place near mom's
>side.  There were NO corrections involved.  Since then,
>she has heel much happier and NO MORE LAGGING.  
>This is where Koehler fails for my dogs.

>First, some background.  My wife and I are owners of a 2.8 year old Bernese
>Mtn Dog.  We got him when he was 1.5 years old.  He was a kennel dog retired
>from breed service due to sagging eyes, a flaw in the breed.  Anyhow, he is
>rather shy but a terrific dog overall.  We have been working with him since

Beautiful dogs. (I'm partial to tri-color dogs in general) 
Bernese are great obedience dogs too.

>we got him and we hope to get his CD by this summer.  He's the kind of dog 
>that requires a lot of confidence-building type activities and absolutely
>cringes with stern correction.  This includes stern "no" and lead snaps.

Sensitive dogs may only need a firm "NO" and very little physical
correction.  My, Wolfie, is a big baby when it comes to physical
corrections, so most of the time I just put him in the right postion
and only use a firm "NO" to correct himn the moment he isn't 
in the right spot.  When he is back in the right spot, I tell
him in a squeeky voice "GOOD BOYA!" (yep boya) and when the
exersice is over let him maul me a bit as I role on the ground
if he has done a really splendid job.  It lets him know that --
I am alpha dog, but I'll let you have some fun trying to
be alpha when we play (builds confidence).  Even the alpha
wolf in a pack will allow subordinte members to win a few
play games, but reestablish dominance before the game is over.
I then will tell him to "QUIT" and he will immediately stop and sit down.
It really makes him feel confident in himself.

>He reacts well when he knows he has done something well and shows no sign of
>fear due to any of our work.  He's latched on to most of the commands but with 
>others he has definitely taken more time to master, especially heel.  He is
>a horrible lagger.  I have a sneaking suspicion that I've been using one of
>Koehler's techniques without realizing it.

It's not all that uncommon to use the "heel"-jerk method for
heeling training.  It does produce quick results, but NOT quality results.

>By what I've seen with Mr Hardin's comments WRT Koehler's methods, I stand 
>horrified at the idea of training Regis soley with his methods.  The poor dog 
>would crumple with anxiety and fear.

Many dogs have and do crumple under Koehler's method.  I won't use
it to the letter, but I will pick and choose what I think will work.
Dog training is a mental sport, not a physical one.  You as a trainer
have to do a lot of thinking and asking your self, "Now how does
this appear to a dog that has no idea what I'm talking about?"
How would you teach a person that was from a foriegn country
English?  You're teaching your dog English and he only knows a
foreign language called "dog".  It's the same concept.

>Like you, we have experineced a severe lagging problem with Regis.  This is the
>first time that I have heard of "binding."  It makes perfect sense and I believe
>that this is well worth a shot.

I think you'll find that your dog will pick this up quickly after he
learns that "heel" no longer means jerk.  It took Mauii a few days
to realize that I wasn't going to jerk her collar when I said heel.
She would brace her front legs in preperation for the jerk at
first.  Just ignor it and keep walking, holding the leash way down
on the buckle almost.  Hold the leash like you would a base-ball
bat handle (I usually double the leash over a few time to get
it at about two feet long, or I would suggest buying a two foot
lead and double it over so you don't have much end sticking out).

Then just say heel and start walking holding the dog in the
heel position against your leg.  At first he will try to lag as usual,
but ignor it and hold him up with you and talk like crazy to him
telling him how good he is the whole time for staying so close.
After he stops trying to lag and accepts the fact that he can't
run out ahead or lag behind, let out a little bit of leash.  
If he lags or pulls, go right back down to a few inches.  He'll
learn lagging or pulling isn't getting him any head room.  Tell
him "get back" or "get up" with a firm voice if he does goof, but don't use "no".
After a bit, you'll be able to let more and more leash out, until
pretty soon, your off the leash all together.  If he goofs up
at any time -- right back down to an inch or so.  When you're
sure he understands where heel is, You have the right to correct him
with a jerk for not listening.   NOW it really is a correction!  SO simple!

>Forever and a day we've used the leash crack
>method and have seen absolutely no improvement.  I can see why now.  I am still
>fuzzy on why he would lag if he knew he was gonna be cracked.  Has the poor guy
>been conditioned to expect a crack just for heeling?  Perhaps you could comment
>more on this phenomena.  Any help is appreciated...

YEP!

They lag more because they anticipate the jerk and realized there is
no way to prevent it.  It's the "helplessness/hopeless syndrome".
Many psycologists have studied it.  I don't condone this practice they use,
but here is how they discovered it, it is a bit cruel so you many not
want to read it.

******************

FIrst they put a dog in a divided box with the floor hooked to a
electric current.  They would shock the floor on one side and the dog
would jump over the divider to get away.  The dog wasn't afraid of the
box because it knew it could get away from the shock.  It was
very happy and content to jump when it saw the guy hit the button
and would avoid the shock, completely.  Then the dog was tied down in the
box and the shock was applied to the floor.  The dog couldn't
get away and learned that it was hopeless to try.  It learned that
there was no escape and became withdrawn and slullen.  Later, even
after the rope was removed the dog wouldn't jump the divider.
He would see the guy reach for the button and just cringe, even
when it was free to jump.  The dog learned that the situation was
hopeless and it stayed helpless. 
*****************

That's the same way the heel is
taught when you jerk the lead.  The dog is hopeless
to aviod the jerk and helpless to prevent it because it
doesn't understand at first what to do.  So it withdraws into
it's own mind and tries to just accept the jerk by 
becoming slullen or lags with it's head down and tail not
wagging.  It also will squint it's eyes and look pitiful
in it's facial expression (yes, dogs have expressions).  I think
using this method never really teaches the dog what heel really is.
Like I said, I don't agree
with this practice of subjecting animals to pain, but I have
to take this crazy PSY120 class this semester so I better get 
something out of it!


>Thanks for your time and thanks for voicing your ideas.

>Dale Cooper
>Herndon, VA


No, problem hope it helps!
That's what I'm posting for!    :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Marla Belzowski   saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Mauii Nikki Belzowski CD CGC TDI CERF
Brittish Legend of Beowulf (1leg CD) CGC TDI CERF    tri-color collies