From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal article by ImranAnwar
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:31:31 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati

In article <1993Jan4.174704.21882@oakhill.sps.mot.com> fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt) writes:
>In article <C0AIns.L0q@uceng.uc.edu> mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>
>...deleted...
>
>>
>>This is true that their share to to top govt post and post gradaute degree 
>>is smaller.  But this proves nothing.  The Rajputs in India form more than
>>12% of the population.  They too have a much smaller share in these two areas.
>>It means that either
>>1. They are not interested in those jobs
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>
>This is the classic excuse used by white-supremacists and other bigots
>when explaining away the reasons why blacks in the USA are so far
>behind whites.  I contend that any human be they hindu, muslim, rajput
>or sikh is interested in self-betterment . Even villagers will sometimes 
>save up and sacrifice in order to educate at least one child. 

Yes everyone interested in self betterment.  But in India government
jobs are not seen as self betterment.  Businesses and jobs in the
private sector are considered better. 
>
>>or
>>2. They do not have the educational traditions to compete with others,
>>   in India getting these opportunities is really difficult.  All have
>>   competative examinations, and the examiners do not know the identity
>>   of the examinees.  So there is no question of bias.
>
>Well, even if that were so, assuming that there is no genetic weakness
>that is manifest in the muslim population, we should see around 12% of
>all IIT students and faculty be muslim right ? I believe the figure is
>not even a quarter of that.  India has this interesting habit of
>assigning token minority members to various "high posts" in an attempt
>to make the myth of secularism seem real.  Almost every argument about
>this that I have had with some of my Indian buddies ends with a
>statement of the form: "well Muhammad Ali Falana Dumkana is the chief
>minister of Airaa Waigharaa." This insults my intelligence, am I
>expected to believe that a random political appointee will accurately
>reflect the views and opinions of muslims in India ?!?  
>
OK why do you think there are less than 12% muslims in IIT.  Do you
think that the selection process is biased in some way?  Everyone has
to give the same examination and the identity of the examinee is
confidential.  I have never heard any Muslims complaining that
there is some sort of bias in the examination process.  I agree that
intelligence has nothing to do with genes, but there is something
known as educational traditions.  In Pune where I come from you
will see 10th standard and 12th standard students studying late into
the night from the first day of school.  I am sure you won't see that
in places like Kolhapur or Solapur.  Pune is a brahmin majority city,
I don't mean to offend any one, but it is true they have high educational 
traditions.  Similiarly a Marwadi or Sindhi will more likely go into
business, because that is what he has seen his father do.  But this is
changing and in future you may see a more equal representation of
every community.  The political appointees are not selected in random,
they are chosen because they have certian abilities and they have been
elected.  Most of the Muslim ministers have been elected by Muslims and
therefore I think they represent them.
Most Pakistanis argue that Muslims don't hold any important posts in
India, and when show them that this is not true, they say that those
Muslims who hold high posts are just puppets. The Indian government
is a democratically elected government.  It depends on the will of 
the Indian people to stay in power.  If you think Hindus are against
Muslims there is no way Muslims will hold high positions in the
Indian cabinet (Hindus form 83% of the population), not even to
show the world we are secular because it is not the world that elects them.
Or due you think it is whispered in every Hindu's ear during election
time that "we are giving these posts to Muslims only to prove the
world that we are secular, do not take it seriously".  There are some
fanatic Hindus who hate Muslims and some fanatic Muslims who hate Hindus,
but majority of Indians get along well together.  
>...deleted...
>
>>
>>Sikhs are the largest subgroup in the Indian army, they are also one of the
>>richest communities in India. The CM of Punjab is a Sikh and the number 2 man
>>in the Indian govt is a Sikh. I dont know what persecution he is talking 
>>about.
>
>Oh come on! Is the massive sikh uprising a "little trouble stirred up by 
>the foreign hand" ? Face the truth, India and Pakistan are both rapidly 
>becoming balkanized into religious/ethnic/national subgroups.
>

What is your point here.  What I have said above is true.  Pakistan
is responsible for the trouble in Punjab, that is why the US is 
thinking of naming it a terrorist nation.  No India is not being
divided into religious/ethnic/national subgroups, in fact we are
coming even closer together.  And as far as Pakistan is concerned, it
has always been divided into these subgroups because of the government
policies.  Do you know that the majority of the police force in Punjab
is Sikh, and they are the ones combating the terrorists there.  
>...deleted...
>
>>The demolition of the Mosque may be preplanned, but that does not mean
>>PVNR knew about the plan in advance.  Kalyan Singh was responsible to protect
>>the Mosque, which he promised to do, there was no reason for him to take
>>precautions from his side.  When the BJP did not live upto its promise
>>did he not dismiss all the BJP govts, arrest their leaders and ban their
>>grass root organisations.  Also he does not criticize the GOP and GOB
>>for not taking any measures to safegaurd their minorities, it was more
>>obvious to them that there was going to be a retialation. I also suspect
>>he does not know the meaning of genocide.
>
>
>Pakistan has already started rebuilding damaged temples. India has 
>added insult to injury by permitting the hindu hordes who destroyed 
>the Babri Masjid to pray there.  The GOI has mouthed well-meaning 
>slogans to pacify muslims but the truth is far from the pretty 
>picture that has been painted.  Watch for a temple where the masjid stood
>in 1993.
>
Really who cares?  We don't care what goes on in Pakistan, when Zia
declared Pakistan an Islamic republic, did we declare India a Hindu
republic? Pakistanis are the ones obsessed by India.  When PVNR was
told that temples were destroyed in Pakistan, all he said was that
for him every place of worship was equally holy. He never demanded
that the temples be rebuilt.  UP, MP, Rajasthan and HP together form
an area which is almost twice the size of Pakistan, dismissing governments from
there is surely more than mouthing slogans.  Hindus were always allowed
to pray there by some previous court order, the GOI has nothing to
do with that.  The courts have ruled that the Hindus can pray there.  
>...deleted...
>
>>
>>Does he mean to say that killing for economic gain is acceptable?  
>>The signal that Ayodhia sends is that no fundamentalism will be accepted in
>>India.  The ruling and all the opposition parties came against the BJP,
>>all Indians have condemned this action.  Even Advani said that Dec 6 has
>>been the saddest day in his life, remember this is the guy whose family
>>had to leave Pakistani Sindh in a hurry.  
>>
>
>The signal that Ayodhya sends is that it's perfectly OK to persecute 
>those "darn invading muslims."  Destroy their historic mosques and you'll 
>get a ceremonial tap on the hand and a wink followed by the construction of 
>a temple.  GOI's hypocrisy on the Ayodyha issue has been simply incredible.
>India has a huge standing army, knowing how much radical hindus love and 
>respect the muslim minority, it is beyond comprehension that the GOI would not 
>have mobilized a giant, pre-emptive security force just in case.  The 
>excuses of a mob having gone crazy unexpectedly make me shake my head.  
>If Indian police do not know anything about a mob of 100000 religious radicals 
>assembling in a random town where there is a big religious problem, then 
>India must not only be in trouble but close to anarchy.
>
India has a large standing army, but the job of the army is to protect
the country from external threat, not to handle civil disturbances.
They are used only as a last resort when the police has failed to control
the area.  It is difficult for Pakistanis to understand this concept, 
because you guys are used to the army running all aspects of your life.
The UP CM promised to protect the Masjid, and he had positioned a large
police force around the mosque.  They could not control the mob, that
is why the government was dismissed and the CM arrested.
>

Manoj
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh