HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: matt@physics.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Coming of Age novels (was Re: Count Geiger's Blues and Jumper)
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:11:34
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
Reply-To: matt@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca's message of Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:54:47 GMT

In article <BvCK7B.6rM@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:

> 	I happened to recently read 'Orbital Resonance' and 'Rite  of
> Passage' back to back. What are the great SF 'coming of age' novels?
> I'd put 'The Wild Shore' on the list (and, I suppose the  other two  
> books in  that series), but what else  should  go on the cannonical
> list of  CoA books?

It isn't science fiction, but fantasy; still, I have never read any
"coming of age" book that I appreciated more than _A Wizard of
Earthsea_, by Le Guin.  

A lot of this probably has to do with the fact that I identified with
Ged's arrogance, precocity, and isolation.  I suppose that's probably
the real truth: the book that moves you the most is likely to be the
one that speaks most directly to you.  It probably isn't possible to
come up with a "best" book, or even a list of best books---people just
differ too much. 
--
Matthew Austern                   Just keep yelling until you attract a
(510) 644-2618                    crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a
austern@lbl.bitnet                faction, an army!  If you don't have any
matt@physics.berkeley.edu         solutions, become a part of the problem!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Heinlein reference in Sturgeons "The Golden Helix"
Organization: Exile Government of Bramming
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:54:05 GMT

  Some 22 pages into the short story "The Golden Helix" by
Theodore Sturgeon I read the following lines: 

  "Then an old, old tale tale flashed into his mind, an early thing
from the ancient Amerenglish, by Hynlen (Henlyne, was it? no matter)
about a man who tried to convey to humanity a description of the
superbeings who had captured him, with only his body as a tablet and
his nails as a stylus. Perhaps he was mad at the time he finished, 
but his message was clear at least to him: 'Creation took eight 
days'. ".

  This clearly a Heinlein reference but where is it from?
 
-- 
No News is Bad News
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: send
Date: 6 Oct 1992 19:54:22 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: adder.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct6.142900.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> rwilley@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Hrothgar) writes:
>
>I'm (so far) futilely searching for a copy of a book called
>"The Big U".  (the author is unknown, unfortunately.

Neal Stephenson.

It is said to be good.

c
From: bp494@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dana Goldblatt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Name query
Date: 28 Sep 1992 14:46:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bp494@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dana Goldblatt)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, JOKHC@CUNYVM.BITNET (Joshua Kronengold) says:

>Can't remember everything about the book (like, f'rinstance, the author, or
>much of the story) but could it have been a historical fantasy about a half-
>elven(that is, sidhe) woman who is cursed by her father to have a fish's tail;
>she bears a son (to a king?) and the story covers mabye 200 years.(I think it's
>called melisande, but I'm not sure)
>anyone else?
>

This is sort of the version of a story about Melisande (or Melisende?)
in _Possession_ by A.S. Byatt.  One of the characters wrote a long
poem about a half snake (not fish, I think) faerie woman named that.

-dana

Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:13225 rec.arts.books:17261
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:05:14 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>(SubGenius) writes:

>>Of course.  Clements was a political commentator using fiction set in his
>>own day, therefore he used dialects that existed a priori of the writing. 

>>Hoban is a political commentator using science fiction set in some future
>>day, therefore he uses a dialect that might exist a postori of the writing.

>This is a rhetorical device invented by the Greek poet and brewer
>Mavricles of Thebes.

>He called it "demonstrandus anthonius."  Rediscovered in 1860 by the
>peripatetic English pawnbroker, Charlesby-Hunt, it has recently
>enjoyed a vogue, and most modern thinkers consider it one of the
>more effective weapons in the advanced rhetorical arsenal.

>A rough translation would be "proof by wordplay," although a
>minority of wags continues to insist on "proof by pun."

I had to laugh when I read this, because years ago I wrote a grad school
paper on one of Clemen's later books (might have been "The Further Adventures
of Huckleberry Finn" - title approximate) and called this method "backwoods
dialectic". Wish I had done some rhetorical research.

In one passage in the book, Jim, Huck, and Tom are flying in a hot air baloon,
and are looking for the border between Illinois and Missouri. They expect
the color of the landscape to change from green to purple, because that is
the way it looks on the map of the USA they have.

By the way, wasn't that Mavroulas of Peabody, and the technique "demonstrandus
buickus patronagius"

Matt
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Chanur Series
Organization: LSI Logic/Headland Technology
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:56:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.162742.2764@walter.bellcore.com> mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch) writes:
>I just finished C.J. Cherryh's second book in the Chanur Series,
>"Chanur's Venture."  The book ends abruptly... This is not a cliff-
>hanger, it's an unfinished story. 
>
>My question is, do you suppose that "Chanur's Venture" and "The
>Kif Strike Back" were originally one book, and that someone (Cherryh?
>An editor? DAW Books?) decided it was too long, and had to be split?

Yep. In an interview, Cherryh said her original intent was to expand
on a minor subplot of "Pride of Chanur" that she'd cut.  Then that
can of worms contained a bigger can of worms, and before she knew it,
it was too big for one book, and had to be split.  In fact, it was
split into three -- you'd better get "Chanur Homecoming" before you
finish "The Kif Strike Back".  The end of TKSB is just as abrupt.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt                     "I'm not a biologist, but I play one in 
LSI Logic/Headland Products        front of Congressional hearings."
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp                        -- Meryl Streep
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Co-Dominium Universe
Date: 28 Sep 92 02:41:25 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep27.201305.13335@hsv3.lsil.com>, mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
> In article <6722@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
> >I disagree.  Most of the Pournelle-bashing I've seen has criticized
> >him for being a right-wing warmonger.  They might not use those exact
> >words, but that seems to be the gist.
> 
> "Right-wing" is relative, I suppose, but based on conversations with
> Pournelle and his RT on GEnie, I'd say he's far too libertarian to be
> classed as a "right-winger".

I'd agree, but that's neither here nor there.  I wasn't asserting what *I* thought his views were,
but rather what many (if not most) of the slams' authors seemed to think they were.


> "Warmonger" is another matter.  Some people think that it's a horribly
> war-mongering statement to say "If, God forbid, you get into a war,
> then you'd damn sure better win it."  I think this is a pretty good
> summary of Pournelle's position.  I don't think this constitutes
> "warmonger".  Some people do.

Again, I agree.  And again, see point #1.

> -- 
> "Once is happenstance,                     Mike Van Pelt
>  Twice is coincidence,                     LSI Logic/Headland 
>  Three times is enemy action."             mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
>          -- Auric Goldfinger               sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp

-- 

Dan S.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield)
Subject: Re: Books I Love to Hate (e.g., Orbital Resonance)
Date: 2 Oct 92 01:35:01 GMT

In <MATT.92Oct1011457@physics.berkeley.edu> matt@physics.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:

>To me, _Podkayne_ was a very heavy-handed sermon on the evils of
>uppity girls aspiring to anything more than traditional female roles.
>In the published version, the main character recognized the errors of
>her ways and (presumably) lived happily every after by producing
>babies; in the original version, she comes to a Bad End because of her
>misbehavior.  I, at least, don't see either of those as much better
>than the other.

PARDON?  We *must* have read entirely different books with the
same title.  The book I read was about an adventuresome but a
little too naive and trusting girl and her mercenary and 
compassion-less brother.  As the novel progressed the advantages
and disadvantages of each of these rather black and white personas
in various situations was demonstrated, and at the end the 
disadvantages of the naive and innocent persona ended up killing
her, but the mercenary persona mellowed into a more whole (and
thus presumably better at coping with all situations) personality.

I definitely don't recall any of the characters espousing "traditional
female roles" explicitly, or by implication.  Podkayne's "Bad End"
came because of weaknesses in her personality which were, in fact, those 
many would ascribe to the "traditional female" image.

>Heinlein wrote some very good and thought-provoking books, but this
>wasn't one of them.  He was at his best when he was questioning
>traditional ideas, not when he was defending them unthinkingly.

Heinlein wrote more than a few stinkers, but I don't *ever* recall 
him *not* questioning traditional ideas, or doing much of anything
unthinkingly.  This one included.

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Shock wave rider
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:20:11 GMT
Organization: Univ. Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center

In article <7454@lib.tmc.edu> drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez)
writes:
>It's called a Theremin. I saw one once in a music store here in the early
>seventies. Most of us have heard the instrument - it was used by the Beach
Boys
>in "Good Vibrations" for that high-pitched background figure.

I should have described it. It's a box with two metal plates mounted at angles
on posts. I think one was for pitch and one for volume. You controlled them by
changing the distance of your hands to the plates.

David Gutierrez
drg@biomath.mda.uth.tmc.edu

"Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
From: pws@castle.ed.ac.uk (P W Stephenson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff
Date: 3 Oct 92 16:35:33 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

merritt@milton.u.washington.edu (Ethan Merritt) writes:

>	Here's a question in return: At least one of the stories which
>Severian relates from his little brown book is recognizable - that of
>Theseus returning without changing his sails.  Can the other stories be
>matched up with tales we already know?

My head is seriously overloaded after reading this thread and I think I
need a lie down with a good book (it seems I'm going to have to dig out
my Fifth Head of Cerberus again), but I remember various of the stories
rang bells at the time. In particular, the one about anthropomorphic
wolves struck me as a mixture of the Romulus and Remus legend and the
Jungle Book.  I can't remember why I recognised the latter.

Also, in a posting the last time this subject cropped up, I pointed out
a quotation (the only direct one I know about) from Marlowe's Faustus
which I believe he sees in the brown book: ``Hell hath no limits nor is
circumscribed...''  (I think it's that one, at least it's something
similar).

Also, I have a recollection of some story about a man sitting under a
tree which sounded extremely Buddhist.

In fact I think most of the stories carry a good helping of myths we
know about.  The story of the Armiger's daughter (I know it wasn't from
the brown book) certainly struck me as a classic piece of folklore, and
I should be glad to know if anyone recognised it.  That doesn't mean I
can't believe Wolfe invented it.

Of course, a lot of Severian's own experiences have mythological
counterparts: as in the second (chronologically, first for Severian)
meeting with Typhon where, like Christ, he is tempted by being shown all
the countries in the world (ish); as in the Tower of Master Ash which is
some counterpart of the tree Yggdrasil of the Norse myths.  It's almost
as if all the myths and actualities of the old Urth have mixed together
and produced the one-step-removed-from-reality feel of the novel
sequence, just as the surface of the planet is littered with the
detritus of former civilisations, and just as the very vocabulary is
littered with resurrected words... the way the themes all tie together
never ceases to astound me.  No other writer I know has ever achieved
the same effect.

``Almost nothing remains to be told...'' (Citadel, final chapter) --- Pah!

-- 
Peter Stephenson     <pws@s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk> or <PWS@UKACRL>  (BITNET)
Dept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics
University of liverpool, U.K.
Tel. +44 51 794 3784 or 3791
From: Mark_Dakins@Novell.COM (Mark Dakins)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Podkayne of Mars (was re:Books I Love to Hate) SPOILERS maybe?
Date: 5 Oct 92 23:56:58 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1992Oct1.184018.22847@col.hp.com> lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson) writes:
>cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>> 
>> Heinlein admits as much in one of his letters--to be found in _Grumbles
>> from the Grave_, I think--but it isn't _Podkayne_ he's trashing, it's
>> her _mother._  Mother spent her time doing science and not paying enough
>> attention to her kids and that is why Clarkie, in particular, turned out
>> so rotten.
>> 
>Not only that, but if the kids were neglected, let's, please, blame
>mom AND dad. I read that letter too, and dad wasn't mentioned: seems
>like dads are not SUPPOSED to pay attention to their kids, but of
>course, moms are.
>
>It annoyed me quite a bit too. But, Heinlein was a product of his times.

Sorry about the slow followup on this but, the thread arrived at my site
on Friday and I didn't want to followup without rechecking the books.  I
thought that I remembered the "blame" being directed at BOTH parents and
having I reread the published version, I still feel that way.  The uncle
is chewing out the father and sends a message via the father to the mother
chewing her out also.  The key passage (IMHO) is "...But I have a message
for you, sir, one that you should pass on to your wife.  Just this: people
who will not take the trouble to raise children should not have them.  You
with your nose always in a book, your wife gallivanting off God knows where -
between you, your daughter was almost killed.  No credit to either of you
that she wasn't.  Just blind luck.  You should tell your wife, sir, that
building bridges and space stations is all very well ... but that a woman
has more important work to do. ..."  Now, of course, it is the last
phrase that is a basis of the charge, and I think that we all know RAH
well enough to know that he was (at least somewhat) guilty of that charge.
But, to his credit, I can not read this passage and the sentences following
without felling that the author held both parents responsible for the
children.  Interestingly, ALL of this stuff is missing from the original
version.  It is left to the reader to deduce the moral of the story or
even that it had one.  Of course there is the letter where, indeed, daddy
doesn't get mentioned at all but I still contend that in the published
version daddy is held responsible - although I admit, perhaps not quite
as much so as mommy.
							Mark Dakins
					(heading for the storm shelter)
From: eclipse@unixland.natick.ma.us (Mark Urbin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Co-Dominium Universe
Date: 27 Sep 92 15:08:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: unixland.1992Sep27.150837.25375
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS

In article <5947@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>From article <6722@transfer.stratus.com>, by dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber):
>> I disagree.  Most of the Pournelle-bashing I've seen has criticized him for
>> being a right-wing warmonger.  They might not use those exact words, but that
>> seems to be the gist.
>I would say that depends on how well you present your ideas and how
>much you vary them.  Nobody would call Heinlein or Laumer right-wing
>warmongers, even if they sometimes have similar characters and plots.
>But Pournelle's stuff is quite formulaic and repetitive, i.e.,
>single-minded, in spirit.

   If you want to find out where Pournelle picked up his style and subject for
writing, read H. Beam Piper.  Pournelle writes fairly decent military based
science fiction.  I wouldn't call it ground breaking.  Basic good formula 
stuff.  
  As being a warmonger, that's a bit harsh.  He reminds the reader that there
are barbarians at the gate throwing stones.  In order to keep the barbarians 
from buring the library, make sure you can throw stones farther and straighter.
  It's the difference between studing for combat and practicing violence.  This
difference was just dug and and discussed over on rec.martial-arts.
>
>[I agree, though, that I would call Pournelle a warmonger, but that's
>another topic, and I did not bring it up]
>-- 
>Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
>University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
>Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst


-- 
eclipse@unixland.natick.ma.us  a.k.a. Mark Urbin  These Opinions are mine.  
"There are going to be situations where people are going to go without
assistance.  That's just the facts of life." ex-LA Chief of Police, Gates.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Looking for Magical Books
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:42:21 GMT

James_Williams@ess.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.GOV (James Williams):
>I am looking for books which deal with...the origin and nature of magic, 
>-or- a realistic and logical heirarcy amoung the magicians (i.e. logical 
>ranks and titles)?    

Jack Chalker, "The River of Dancing Gods". :-)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: REBECCA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (NNR Czar)
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Moon & Mutant Books
Organization: Yale University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 18:33:10 EDT

In article <9209231633.AA11253@rutgers.edu>
MBLANK@utcvm.BITNET (Grabbit Wileucan) writes:
 
>out there. I have read McCaffrey's Pegasus books and also the Mutant
>Season books. Are ther any others.
 
Yes.  The sequel to _The Mutant Season_ is _The Mutant Prime_, and the third
book in the series is _Mutant Star_.  There will be one more, I think, but I
don't know the name.
 
 
 
*************************************************************************
Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT        |    Rebecca@Yalevm.Ycc.Yale.edu
P.O. Box 6349 Yale Station    |    Computing Assistant
New Haven, CT 06520           |    Silliman College, Yale University
 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite
you.  This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
                                                        -Mark Twain
*************************************************************************
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey)
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
	<Oct.4.19.39.41.1992.18321@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
	<1992Oct5.054125.28233@netcom.com> <Bvnoqq.Msu@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:40:03 GMT

Greg Feeley published a dense, multipart article on just these isses
in _The New York Review of Science Fiction_ last year.
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
Date: 4 Oct 92 17:41:34 GMT
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1992Oct1.165225.11308@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
 
  [Stuff deleted]
 > 
 > I have a theory that sometimes the author's obsessiveness can carry
 > the reader along. Unfortunately, this doesn't help with distinguishing
 > between fascinating obsession and boring obsession. 
 > 
 > Offhand, I'd put _The Watchmen_ in your category. I can't believe in
 > a world where people demonstrate in favor of police vs. superheroes
 > or where a rapist is the only one worried about nuclear war.
 > 
 >                                  Nancy Lebovitz
 >                                  calligraphic button catalogue
 >                                            available by email  (170K)
 >                                  nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu
 > 
 > I am a bookaholic. If you are a decent person, you will sell me books at
 > half price.
 > 
 > 
 > 

Excuse me?  Take a look at the kind of people presented as 'superheroes' (the
term is barely used) in _Watchmen_.  Of the handful who are active by the time
of the pro-police demonstrations, two are genuinely creepy right-wingers, and
one isn't even human anymore.  Compare those to your friendly neighborhood cop,
who you maybe even knew when you were both little.  Remember, in the world of
the Watchmen, the 1960s never happened quite like they did here.  The Vietnam War
was won by the US.  There are no references to the riots _we_ remember, and which
helped destroy the image of the police in many peoples' eyes.

As for worrying about nuclear war; well, to me, it seems like just about _every-
one_ (and his brother) is worried *sick* about the impending war....NOT just the
rapist....

Leif the .sigless
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Any comments on ENTROVERSE by James Hogan?
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:24:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.213531.13611@m.cs.uiuc.edu> sane@cs.uiuc.edu (Aamod Sane) writes:

> Try "The Genesis Machine" - superb science.(Terrible plot and characters,
> but IMO the physics makes up for it).

No, the science is quite ridiculous as well.  Folks don't understand
just how much we know about particle physics.  We've reached the 
point where we need to build a machine 50 miles around to have
any reasonable chance of producing phenomena the current theory
can't handle.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu