HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Upcoming problems of naming
Organization: pubs
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:36:14 CDT


I've been wondering what names will be assigned to two things that will
need names soon: the two nations formed from Czechoslovakia, and the
decade after this one.

Czechoslovakia: I assume the eastern part will be simply Slovakia.  What
about the western part?  Czechia?  Czechland?

Next decade: We've gotten in the habit of focusing on decades in a big
way.  I never heard any consciousness of "the fifties" as an era until
1966.  Now, we're so breathless about decades that we start talking
about them before they arrive.  How many things have you heard
proclaimed as "the ____ for the 90s" (or 80s; this hadn't gotten going
in 1970).  Unfortunately, just as this construction became formalized,
we reached the final decade that can be referred to this way, at least
for a while.  What will we say for the latest big thing near the end of
the decade?  The Garth Brooks for the Third Millennium?  The Richard
Simmons for the Zeros?  And what will we call the years?  I heard
someone refer to the movie 2001 as "twenty-oh-one", which sounded crazy
until I thought about the need for a consistent convention after all the
digits turn over.  And who decides these things?  The National Bureau of
Standards?

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:18:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.164426.16588@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
>> RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
>> The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
>> President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
>> seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
>> visits Japan in mid-September.
>
>So what's to apologize for?  

The treatment of the prisoners at the hands of the Soviets.

> Presumably these were the troops captured in Manchuria after eight years 
> of conducting the worst genocide in history?

Basically, but as for "worst genocide ..." they certainly had rivals for
that in one of their allies.

>For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
>scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?

Yep. What you are missing is that the Russians a) can now claim it was all the
*SOVIETS* fault and b) (and by far more important) they want Japanese aid for
their economy, and are not about to give up the "four islands" to do it. A
matter of "real politik".

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: traynor@fnalf.fnal.gov
Subject: Turkmenistan <==> Turkey relationship?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:24:33 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalf.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, but I am curious about a facet
of current events.  With the breakup of the Soviet empire, a number of new
countries have arisen, one of which is names Turkmenistan.  Are the people
historically/ethnically/culturally related to the people in Turkey now
(it is said that the Turkish origin was in Central Asia), and if so, is there
any sort of an irredentis movement occurring for a union with Turkey in this
area?  Any facts would be appreciated.  Thanks.

					-Mike Traynor

-- 
NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     Only Amiga makes ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    it possible  \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\                 \XX/
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:34:42 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug26.123014.13981@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>What he also says is that the prophecy itself was probably a colonial hoax.
>Nongqawuse's revelation was given her by three "Figures" who he claims were
>agents sent by the colonial administrator Sir George Grey to impersonate
>traditional deities.  The reasons he gives for suspecting this:

A recurring theme in history.  What is the first example of conquerors
posing as deities?  Cortez?  This became an old saw with the Spaniards
in many places.



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: vancleef@netcom.com (Henry van Cleef)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 23:20:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom--posted from Andover, Mass.

In article <1992Aug24.44042.5801@ms.uky.edu> bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam) writes:
>I am looking for information - articles, books, or general knowledge -
>about ancient germanic myths.  I am doing some research on their   
>importance in post-World War I Germany
>
Peter Viereck's "Metapolitics," originally published in 1941 and
reprinted at least once, is an interesting study on Romanticism as a
basis for  Naziism.
-- 
Hank van Cleef---The Union Institute---History of Science and Technology
Unix, X11, networked systems  vancleef@netcom.com, vancleef@tmn.com  
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com (Barone)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division, Portsmouth, RI
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:38:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.44042.5801@ms.uky.edu> bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam)
writes:
>I am looking for information - articles, books, or general knowledge -
>about ancient germanic myths.  I am doing some research on their   
>importance in post-World War I Germany

A very interesting article appears in the July/August issue of Archaeology
magazine.  The Nazis used archaeology as an extension of their propaganda
efforts.  Archaeologists in the employ of the Nazis distorted European
prehistory to justify racist and territorial goals.  The article mentions
in passing that German prehistoric archaeology had been largely ignored
before Hitler's rise to power in 1933 which made the task of distortion
much easier.  If there's enough interest, I'll post more.
-- 
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
"Let's play peek-a-boo..."
		"Help! Help! I can't see you! I've been abandoned!
		Father! Father!  Oh, what a cruel, cruel game!"
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: myamin@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (m.yamin)
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 18:47:24 GMT

From article <1992Aug22.175856.6893@nntp.hut.fi>, by c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen):
> In article <1992Aug21.172229.8035@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
> 
>>Might China have become as fragmented by contending groups in the
>>2nd century as they were in the early 20th?  Could the Romans
>>have found some puppets able to raise armies on their behalf?
> 
> Certainly ! The Han empire, in fact, split up 220 AD in three kingdoms; Wei, 
> Shu and Wu. ....

Han held out for a while in Szechuan under the name of Minor or Shu Han.

Gibbon (Decline and Fall, chapter XIII) tells about a soldier who passed
from the service of a Chinese dynasty to that of the Persian king and
then (about 286 CE) to that of a client of the Roman emperor Diocletian.
Gibbon gives his name as "Mamgo" and describes him as "Scythian"; he was
more likely some kind of Turcoman or Mongol.  As explained by Gibbon and
expanded by the editor of the Everyman/Modern Library edition (Oliphant
Smeaton), he was in Han service and went to Persia after these Han were
overcome by the Wei.  The Wei emperor demanded the return of Mamgo and
his retainers but Shapur I, "threatened with war both by Rome and China",
replied: "I have expelled him from my dominions, I have banished him to
the extremity of the earth, where the sun sets.  I have dismissed him to
certain death".  In fact, he had sent him to defend Armenia, where he was
to face an invasion by the prince Tiridates, who had been invested with
the Armenian kingdom by Diocletian.  Mamgo decided he would be better off
working for Tiridates and went over to his service.

				M. Yamin   my@mhcnet.att.com
From: hpb@hpb.cis.pitt.edu (Harry Bloomberg)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Upcoming problems of naming
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:59:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <CB.92Aug27133612@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>I've been wondering what names will be assigned to two things that will
>need names soon: the two nations formed from Czechoslovakia, and the
>decade after this one.
>
   Let's call the two new nations East Mutluland and West Mutuland.

   Hey, if we name two countries after this fellow, maybe he'll feel
compelled to move there! :-) :-)

Harry Bloomberg
hpb@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Fri, 04 Sep 92 07:52:52 CST
From:         C05705DA@WUVMD
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:         Pilgrams
Newsgroups:   soc.history

Does anybody know the name of the Indian nation or tribe in particular
that first met the pilgrams?
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: divide this newsgroup
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:12:18 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <BtpDED.5tx@well.sf.ca.us>, rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes:
> 
> Do you think this group could be subdivided into smaller ones,
> for example, soc.history,usa? That way, some of these smaller
> groups would not have all that Turkish stuff on it.
> -- 
> Robert Chao
> Oakland, California

While your proposal has merit for other reasons, it won't stop Mutlu
from cross-posting to all the soc.history groups that might be
created.  He even posts to news.admin.  Go figure.  === Al Sparks
Xref: sparky soc.history:7873 soc.culture.japan:7445
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:23:48 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Aug26.185015.6334@u.washington.edu>, yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
> In article <11891@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug21.180605.6076@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
# ## Why? It's difficult to see the Pacific War as a "race war". After all, the
# ## Japanese attacked, subjugated, and attempted to eradicate the culture of
# ## Korea, and last I checked, they are of the same race (in fact, the Japanese
# ## Royal family is most likely descended from Korean nobility). They then
# #
# #Hmmm.  From what I've read, the Koreans were always regarded as a
# #lower class of human by the Japanese.
# 
# What is your point? Does a people's opinion always reveal the truth?

No, of course not.  My point was that the Japanese regarded their
invasion as justified by the belief that the Koreans were subhuman.
What I don't understand is why this requires explication.  You make
it sound as though this ideology of racial superiority still had
any significant number of adherents.

# ## Mike
# #Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
# #Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
# #prohibition won't work.
#   --|--|      | Mark Yeon Wook Choi             |
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Aug20.024445.16020@cactus.org> <1992Aug21.172229.8035@acuson.com>
Date: 22 Aug 92 11:24:49

It seems to me that the Chinese and the Romans were too far apart to
do each other much damage.  They could have skirmished with relatively
small forces somewhere in the middle, but neither could have conquered
the other so far from home.  Also both would have taken many years
to acquire the knowledge and the language to operate effectively so
far from home.  Was there even one Chinese who knew Latin or Greek
or Roman who knew Chinese.  I suppose some Chinese knew some of the
Turkic languages.  Arabic didn't become an important language till
after the time of Mohammed.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Technological history and Progress
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:00:00 GMT
Reply-To: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
Organization: Research & Technology

In article 45735@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu, jws7@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JEFF W SCHRAMM) writes:
>...  And
>    finally, If technology was able to do soo much in the immediate post WW II
>    era (Apollo, Automobiles, Aricraft, Nuclear Energy, Etc.) Why has
>    technology seemed to fail us in recent years( Challenger, Automobiles,
>    Environmental concerns, etc.)?
>
>    Just Curious,

Jeff,  
   Why do you consider Challenger and automobiles a failure of technology?
The Titanic sank, and we still have ocean liners.  And my car works just fine.
Pollution is a bad side effect of technology, but I pin the failure there on
politics, not technology.  The question is more one of whether you recognize
the problem.  If you don't expend resources on technological solutions, 
getting them for free is just wishful thinking.
				
-----
Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed above are not those of my employer.

    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: there's more to history than war
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:23:59 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA



   I recently posted a request for journals or diaries of daily life in
   the 19th century.  From this mailing list I got none except for a
   couple of suggestions for war or camp journals and a travel journal.
   I did find two sources on my own at the Sturbridge Village (museum)
   bookstore in Massachusetts, and I anticipate finding other references
   from faculty members of various history departments now that the school
   year is starting.   

   Now, military history is one of my abiding interests.  In fact I'm 
   currently reading a fascinating book by Byron Farwell called _Queen
   Victoria's Little Wars_ and I have a quite a collection of other books
   on military history subjects.   

   But I'm somewhat troubled by the way history forums, and especially 
   this one, are dominated by military matters.  I would say less than 10%
   of the postings here do not relate in some way to war, revolution, 
   uprisings, military technology and similar topics.    Why is this?
   Is this a "guy" thing -- does it reflect the way Usenet is a mainly 
   male institution and guys are more interested in violence?   Or does
   it reflect the way people have internalized the definition of "history"
   we learned in school (kings, conquests, dates)?  

   Most people do not fight in wars at any point in their lifetime.
   Even those who do typically spend only a few years of their lives so
   engaged.   Before the modern period of "total war", where the idea 
   is to make war on your enemy's economic and industrial base, wars
   typically had very little effect on people's lives unless battles
   happened to be fought on their land.  Wars would often topple kings 
   and princes, occasionally result in higher or new taxes, redraw
   borders, or  ocassionally result in having to conscript peasants,
   but otherwise often have little effect on people's daily life.  

   The educational system has propagandized that history is about wars,
   dates, kings, and conquest.  "Big Things".   But most of history 
   consists of ordinary people doing ordinary things.   Methods of 
   farming, crops, animal husbandry, medicine, folk culture, children's
   games, clothing, family relationships, educational practices, gender
   roles, child-rearing, and so forth are just as much a part of history
   as kings and conquests.  Moreover, if you look at complexity and chaos
   theory, and the "emergent phenomena" of artificial life research you
   can see a very good case that history may well be a "bottom-up"
   rather than "top-down" affair, i.e., all the kings and conquests 
   may be epiphenomena anyway: "for want of a shoe . . . the kingdom
   was lost".   

   

---peter


   
   
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam)
Subject: ancient germanic myths
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 08:40:41 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

I am looking for information - articles, books, or general knowledge -
about ancient germanic myths.  I am doing some research on their   
importance in post-World War I Germany



-- 
elizabeth a. gilliam: bee@ms.uky.edu
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: divide this newsgroup
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:07:16 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <BtpJv2.90H@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes:


+>Mr. Mutlu would have no basis for posting his articles to a
+>soc.history.usa, would he?

	No more than he did for posting them to news.admin, news.answers,
	alt.rodney-king, talk.politics.misc, comp.sysadmin.next.....(etc)

	If you try to converse with the Multu (or Multus), your going to
find out that your are dealing with a class-one looney who does not converse
but will attach a one-line insult response to your post and then 
stick 500 lines he copied out of a book on the end of the post.

	If anyone seriously wants to cause Multu some trouble, send letters
to the turkish embassy saying that he an embarissment to turks, hurting
the image of turks/turkey on a very large electronic network and causing 
people to think that any "history" other than the armenian history of their
common conflict is "crazy".  Be sure to mention Amhet Cosar as being involved
as well in producing the material.



Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:28:03 GMT

jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

....

jmc   >Consider that Japan had isolated itself for 250 years, and during
jmc   >that period had too little contact with foreigners of any kind
jmc   >for significant racism to survive in any layer of the population.
jmc   >--


cmr   250 years of isolationism is both indicative of and a cause of the 
cmr   strongest kind of racism. The fear/hate of outsiders is reinforced
cmr   by the lack of contact.

jmc   The actual rationale for the Japanese isolationism is hard to
jmc   determine.  No Japanese has ever been able to point me at any
jmc   contemporary documents advocating it.  Everyone I asked says
jmc   it had to do with Confucian fears of being corrupted by foreign
jmc   ideology, especially by Christianity which had two million
jmc   converts in Japan.  I don't recall anything about foreigners
jmc   being declared inferior.  It follows by 50 years or so,
jmc   a corresponding isolationist policy of the Chinese empire.


In your own statement , "fears of being corrupted by foreign ideology"
is contained the implicit inferiority of those foreigners. One can not
be "corrupted" by respected equals.


Charlie

-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 27 August, 1942
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:49:17 GMT
Reply-To: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams)
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Carderock Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center

In sci.military, military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes:
 >
 >The battleship USS Iowa, first of a new class, is launched.
 >
 >"[Assistant Secretary of the Navy Ralph A Bard] said he would guarantee
 >that she would prove superior to anything that either the Japanese or the
 >Germans could build, with all their stealth." - The New York Times, on the
 >battleship USS Iowa

Was Bard implying that USS Iowa was superior to Japan's Yamato?  Yamato
was with Japan's main force in the Battle of Midway, June 1942.  Or was
Bard unware of the Yamato's existence or strength?


---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Steve Williams                           swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
From: rehir@gauss.med.harvard.edu (Hirokatsu Watanabe 432-2275)
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: The Russo-Japanese War (part 2)
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:06:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: hsdndev.1798
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: Harvard Medical School


In <1992Aug28.154144.1977@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>In article <11891@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>Well, yes and no. There is good evidence that the Imperial family was 
>originally Korean. And there is no doubt that the Korean penninsula has been
>a tremendous conduit for art and technology from the continent into Japan.
>Then, Hideyoshi attacked Korea (with the intention of conquoring China) and
>no doubt the Koreans were looked down upon. The war ended, Tokugawa ended up
>in power, and the country was mostly closed off, but apparantly, there was
>rather free commerce between Korea and Japan during that time. Then came 
>Meiji Japan changed (in response to external factors) rather quickly.
>I also undersatnd that for quite a while, there was some intermarriage
>between the Korean and Japanese upper class (correct me if I'm wrong).

   Sorry. Please forgive me to correct your article.
   The reason why the trade between Korea and Japan was kept during
the closing country was the demand from 'Soh' family, which was the lord
in 'Tsushima' Island which is the nearest island to Korea.
   The economy of this lord family depended on the trade with Korea,
because they couldn't get much rice in Tsushima Island. And this family
traditionally had the privilege of trading with Korea. Therefore,
Tokugawa government allowed 'Soh' family to trade with Korea. And
only Soh family and Tokugawa government could trade with Korea during
the closing country (in my memory). 
   In addition, when the misson of Korea came to Edo, Tokugawa government
could show thier authority to other lords and people. Korea sent 
the missons for getting information from Japan, because they were cautious
about Japan after the invasion of Hideyoshi (Imjin Weran ?).
   
   Please don't misunderstand. I don't mean Japanese Emperor isn't
related to Korean. I also guess, it is highly possible that the
family have their origin in Korea.

**********************************
*       Hirokatsu Watanabe       *
**********************************