HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grogers@slacvx.slac.stanford.edu (Greg Rogers)
Subject: Re: Cycling gifs
Reply-To: grogers@slacvx.slac.stanford.edu (Greg Rogers)
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:12:15 GMT

>>There was an ftp site cited on the news, however, I had problems with
>>getting connected to it: (in fact the host seemed to be unknown)
>>
>>       draco.acs.aci.edu
>
>Try draco.acs.uci.edu.

Ok, So I FTP one of these .gif files.  Cute, all sorts of funny characters.
Could someone please tell me how to turn these files of meaningless characters
into pictures.  

Do I have to FTP in binary (if so, how to I toggle that)?  I have access to 
DEC Windows running VMS and X-Windows running UNIX.  I also have access to a
color laser printer and a color plotter.

thanks in advance,
Greg

From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 01:54:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
From: stek@amazon.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 03:36:06 GMT

Doesn't all this Bull Shit about tires belong on another BBoard.
Jobst and Bruce, I thought one of you had initiated the splitting
of rec.bicycles in the first place.

Paul Stek
Stek@pfc.mit.edu
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:38:41 GMT
Subject: Racers and Tires
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

The whole descending and Lemond discussion drifted into so much
diversion that the initial contention that great bicycle racers are
not necessarily great descenders (Bahamontes for one) got lost.  In
that vein it also was implied that those who descend mountain roads
fast are engaging in a risky and daring event.  This perception is
understandable because most of us set our limits by what we can do
safely and some of that is from painful experience.  Therefore, when
others exceed this speed, it is easy to assume that they are doing
something more dangerous than the observer chooses to do.

It comes with difficulty for some riders to say that going any
faster exceeds their abilities.  So the next step is to characterize
the more skilled rider as reckless and foolhardy; in their mind
saying, I could do that too but it would be risky.  This argument
falls on favorable ground because most riders, as in any
distribution of ability, are slower than the fastest.  Unlike many
distributions, this may have a gap because those who ride
conservatively also lack practice from not seeking out the
challenging descents or taking pleasure in leaning, rider and bike,
deeply into the curves.

As with many selective examples, the contention that fast riders
crash is misleading.  When a conservative rider falls, it is an
unavoidable accident because he took all precautions.  When the fast
rider falls "it was to be expected with his reckless nature".  The
rider who keeps his bicycle in the garage does not crash.

That Greg Lemond is not the fastest descender is not as unbelievable
to me as to others who chose to defend him indirectly by distorting
what I said to the absurd.  I heard from a friend, with home I have
ridden often, that Lemond was not a fast descender and that this
opinion was formed on a ride that included sufficient opportunity to
form this opinion.  I don't know Lemond and also would be out of
place at the pace had I been invited on the ride.  I believe the
account.  It would have been simple to say, "I disagree, I saw him
pass many riders on a wet descent in ... race."  What I find curious
about this exchange is that the combatants take as personal insults
my contention that TdF winners are not necessarily the best able to
evaluate tires and to descend mountain roads.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Cyling [sic] and Doping
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 07:39:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.195944.25289@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com> harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney) writes:
>tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>: In case you haven't been following the thread, caffeine is _legal_ already.
>: Apparently it's OK to tilt the playing field only somewhat.
>
>That's exactly what's being argued here.  Should caffeine be legal, or
>semi-legal as it currently is?  The only reason that it is tolerated is
>because it is a socially accepted drug.  The IOC/UCI rules are
>supposedly intended to prevent the use of any drug which might alter
>one's performance either positively or negatively.  Do you truly believe
>that caffeine at the upper IOC/UCI limit has no physiological effects?

What I believe is that caffeine is commonly in virtually every beverage
available. If someone drinks a couple of double espressos and then is
disqualified we're talking major stupidity on the part of the rules.

And BTW, did _you_ read the original paper on caffeine performance 
enhancment or are you just shooting from the hip as usual?

And here's where it stands: it's already been noted that people who
regularly drink coffee and other caffeine containing products develop
a fast and high tolerance for it. THerefore there are plenty of riders
out there that could have virtually no effect from the caffeine near
the IOC limits. This is already agreed on and accepted and is the
reason that that particular limit was set.

Another point, when I was young and in the Air Force we lived on
coffee. I _typically_ consumed over a gallon a day. At the same time
I smoked two or more packs of cigarettes. At this time I had no 
trouble whatsoever with sleeping. So there are plenty of people who
do not drink coffee, even in double espressos for it's performance
enhancing effects.

This mentality that says that caffeine somehow tilts the playing field
but money doesn't is just about as stupid as can be.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: greg@mobius.viewlogic.com (Gregory Larkin)
Subject: RE: TEAM MOTOROLA WILL RIDE CLINCHERS IN 1993
Originator: greg@mobius
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:02:49 GMT


In article <06JAN93.13053658.0102@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, E5EM@UNB.CA (E5EM) writes:
|> 
|>   Figured I'd give my .02.  I've had a chance to use a few different
|> tubulars (conti, wolber, vittoria, performance, clement...) and I am
|> in love with my Conti sprinters. I like riding the high pressure and
[...]

Have they fixed the problem with the base tape falling off after
a month or so of riding?  I bought one of these tires last year
and after a while, it seemed like the glue holding the base tape
on disappeared.  I heard a rumor that this has been corrected.  At
the time, I think I was using Wolber glue.  Do I need to use
a special glue?

Other than that, I thought the tire was great!

-- 
              Greg Larkin, Software Engineer, Waveform Analysis
                 Viewlogic Systems, Inc.  Marlboro, MA 01752
                            greg@Viewlogic.COM
From: ianbjor@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Ian D. Bjorhovde)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Pro Sponsorship
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:40:18 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson

>From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
>Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
>Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993

>So, it is very simplistic and naive to say that the pros ride whatever
>they get paid to ride.  The teams do indeed make decisions based on factors
>other than money alone.


Not necessarily.  BIG riders like Lemond do have some pull when it comes
to sponsorship;  they also can get their own private deals.  However,
the 'average' cyclist in the pro peloton rides the bike that he is
given, regardless of what components are on it.

Like Bruce said, the TEAMS make the decisions, not the individual
riders.


--Ian D. Bjorhovde
  ianbjor@gas.uug.arizona.edu
  Department of Materials Science and Engineering
  The University of Arizona
From: eisele@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Jon Eisele)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:55:16 GMT
Subject: Walden School of Cycling ?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing


Has anyone ever attended the Walden School of Cycling?  If so, could you
let me know what you thought of it?

Thanx,
Jon

eisele@hpisla.lvld.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:54:56 GMT

In article <3450010@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>Roger Marquis writes:
>
>> I would hope they wouldn't be forced to use clinchers all the
>> time.  For puncture resistance and hot weather descents clinchers
>> are great but they don't compare with sew-ups for ride comfort,
>> weight and traction in the wet.
>
>You slip ride comfort and traction right in there with weight as if
>they were as easily quantified.  From what I have seen and measured,
>these "advantages" do not exist when comparing equivalent tires.
>The tire testing machine, recently shown at the Anaheim Show,
>measures cornering capability to +-1 degree repeatability and
>tubulars have shown no advantage over clinchers in this respect, or
>for that matter, in handlebar mounted accelerometers.

Trouble is that there are no real equivalents between clinchers and
sew-ups.  Casing materials are different, cross sections are
different, rims are different.  If you compare tires of similar cross
section sew-ups will be able to absorb more shock because of their 
round cross section as opposed to clincher's semi-circle.  I commonly use 
90-95 psi in my performance 250s.  You would need a 28c or better to 
approach those pressures in a clincher.   And you don't need a machine to 
know that lower pressures make for a more comfortable ride (especially
a single vendors machine which was specifically built to promote
their tires).

If there were clinchers made with cotton you would see some good
descending tires.  Most clinchers are made from nylon which, while
puncture resistant, is not the best casing for holding on to wet
roads.  

>jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)
From: chris@carnival.lbl.gov (Chris Moll)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:45:04 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: carnival.lbl.gov

Roger Marquis writes:
>This was when Tom[Ritchey] had just introduced his first tire, which had a dual
>purpose style tread.  Tom wanted the team (Max Jones and myself) to ride 
>his tires in a race at China Camp in Marin.  To make a long story short 
>we got our doors blown off on every descent, even by guys who never 
>descended well.  Max and I were disgusted.  It only took a few races 
>before Tom quit insisting that the tires couldn't make much of a 
>difference.  Some things are just more obvious than others I
>suppose.

Apples and oranges.  I don't think anyone is contending that "tires are
tires" offroad - big flexible knobs or the absence thereof make a hell of a
difference to how tires function.  You can ride slicks offroad (fun) or 
knobbies on the road (not fun) but in either case there's little doubt that
your speed will suffer.

The question is, are you likely to get your doors blown off in a road descent
because you chose the wrong type of high quality, "slick" tire?  I doubt it.
Will there be small but still significant differences?  Maybe.  Certainly
my own descending ability varies considerably according to various factors.
The most important is what I call the "chicken sh*%" factor - ie. how
recently I've been reminded of my mortality.
--
Chris Moll                       (510)486-7891
---
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature
replaces it with.        -- Tenessee Williams
From: kkothman@weber.ucsd.edu (Keith Kothman)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: LeMond's Goals for the 1993 Racing Season
Date: 13 Jan 1993 00:08:27 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <ll6e2oINN6ad@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>
>Given the strength of Miguel Indurain(and Gianni Bugno and Claudio
>Chiapucci) it seems to me that Greg has only an outside chance to win
>the Tour de France(TIOOYK).  Of course, every year is different and
>stranger things have happened(like 1989), but to be realistic and
>not to diminish the results of an absolutlely fabulous career,
>I think Greg needs to change his goals.
>
>I think Greg has a very good chance of winning a classic like Liege-Bastogne-
>Liege or Paris-Roubaix.  I would love to see him concentrate on the
>tougher one day races and not base his whole season on the Tour de France.

I agree.  For the last two years Lemond only been able to 
attack on the relatively flat stages.  In '91 he was 
able to outsprint the sprinters for bonus points in some
stages, which would bode well for the classics.  But the
change of focus would represent a major reorientation of
his career, and even his place as leader of his team.

For the past few years, Lemond has seemed content to 
let his teammates excel in the classics and other races
leading up to the Tour(TIOOYK)--working in support of 
Kvaltsvall in 91 at the Tour DuPont, and in support of 
Duclos-Lasalle at last year's Paris-Roubiax.  In return,
he would get extreme loyalty from his team at the TdF.
Agreeing with Bruce, since i'd love to see his all-too-often-
maligned name in the winner's spot more often, it will still
be interesting to see what develops.

Keith Kothman
kkothman@ucsd.edu
From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:27:09 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <C0Ew0x.AzA@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) writes:
>>I haven't tried Continentals yet but I have only heard good things about 
>>them....
>
>Michelins were my favs until I got Conti Grand Prixs.  They are pretty damn
>expensive although you might want to try Super Sports.  

Super Sports get a lot more flats than Michelins in my rather limited
experience.  I haven't tried Gran Prix: they're too expensive for the
mileage my friends get out of them.

I mean, I got like millions of flats in like hardly any miles at all with
Super Sports, and like hardly any flats on big-sized Michelins in trillions
of miles.  Sorry not to be any more precise, but I'm not like conducting
scientific experiments or anything.  I just don't like the tires.
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
RAAM in '93?		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Racers and Tires: A bit more
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:22:48 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <3450019@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>That Greg Lemond is not the fastest descender is not as unbelievable
>to me as to others who chose to defend him indirectly by distorting
>what I said to the absurd.  I heard from a friend, with home I have
			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>ridden often, that Lemond was not a fast descender and that this
>opinion was formed on a ride that included sufficient opportunity to
>form this opinion.  I don't know Lemond and also would be out of
>place at the pace had I been invited on the ride.  I believe the
>account.

Just to make one more point clear about this whole discussion.

Jobst has continually beat up on people for posting 2nd hand
stories.  As he himself said, these stories usually begin with,
"I heard from a friend", well, if you look at the above paragraph
you can see exaclty the same thing being used by Jobst to make
his point.  He believes the account, just as those other netters
who posted their 2nd hand stories believed their account.

So, what is my point?  It is that Jobst is very hypocritical about
how he treats people on the net.  In the past few weeks we have seen
two major examples of this behaviour. First, in the discussion of
hydration and winter riding, he provides the same "casual data point"
that he so despises and now in the discussion about descending skills
he provides a "2nd hand story" another item he take exception to when
used to make a point.

I have received a number of private E-mail messages from readers of
the net who have avoided posting to the net for fear of the very
real chance that Jobst will launch a personal attack against them,
most likely for using one of the above mentioned items.

I have been on this net for over 8 years and I would like to allow
people to be able to post freely and without recrimintaion.  This
is why I react so strongly when I see Jobst using the same tactics
to make a point that he publicly despises.

I am sorry if this appears to have gotten out of hand or that I am
publicly grinding my axe in a matter that should have been handled
privately.  However, as I said before, I would like this net to
be an open forum for discussion and I have reacted rather strongly
to one of the people who I feel is keeping from being that way
(this is of course, my opinion of the situation.)

Bruce
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 11 Jan 1993 05:01:04 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <3450013@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>
>I don't believe that name drops and fame by association has any
>value in debating technical differences.  However, just to give your
>contention some perspective, Lemond, who is often mentioned as a
>better than average descender rode locally with some of the guys to
>the coast going up Kings Mountain and down Tunitas Creek Rd.  After
>waiting at the top for the "slow" hosts, he promptly was off the
>back after the first turn.  It isn't like he doesn't know these
>roads either because he won some races on them.  Great bike racers
>are not necessarily fast descenders.

I would like to add another data point.  In 1989, just before he placed
third in the Giro d'Italia, I dropped Andy Hampsten on the climb up to
Jamestown from Left Hand Canyon.  I don't want to confuse the incident
with any extraneous facts surrounding what actually happened, but it
appears that great bike racers are not necessarily fast uphill climbers
either!


Bruce

ps - hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,hah,
heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,heh,
ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,ho,
NOT!

pps - Jobst, was just kidding with his original post, too, right?!?!?!?!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: Dave Hayes <daveh@tv.tv.tek.com>
Subject: Sew ups, again, still, ad nauseam
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A77066BC77033532@baldwin.tv.tek.com>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 6 Jan 93 18:36:44 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Television Products, Beaverton OR
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:39:01 GMT

In article <3450011@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> Jobst Brandt,
jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM writes:
>The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
>is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
>tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards. The glue also
>absorbs significant energy while rolling which is imprtant in a TT.
>I think these are the reasons that any team would want to get off of
>tubulars once they recognize them.


Jobst, I respect your opinions, but I wish you would label them as such .
After all, there are tens of young, impressionable cyclists out there
hanging on your every word. The above statement is very similar to saying
"Airplanes fall from the sky. Any person would want to travel by train
once he recognizes this fact." Interesting opinion, but generally
recognized as extreme (or, put more bluntly, WACKO).

While the scenario you paint is possible, it is virtually unheard of with
properly glued sewups. Pros have trusted their lives to this technology
for decades.

It strikes me that using TOO MUCH glue could cause both of the cited
problems. Perhaps the tests of tubular rolling resistance should be
repeated with tires glued by a seasoned pro team mechanic?

In defense of clinchers, however, the fact that the pros  have have used
them (whether they've been paid to or not) underscores just how good they
have become since I began racing in 1973. With my personal finances
involved, I prefer to use clinchers for training and road racing, saving
my precious tubulars for crits and the track.

Flame on,

Dave (my results may vary) Hayes
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 6 Jan 93 17:26:26 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <3450011@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>
>From my experience I have not found the substantial differences
>between Avocet, Continental, Specialized, Michelin, or Ritchey tires
>that have been presented in this space.

Agreed.  That is why I tend to ride whatever seems to be the best
bargain when it comes time to buy tires.

>The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
>is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
>tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards.  The glue also
>absorbs significant energy while rolling which is imprtant in a TT.
>I think these are the reasons that any team would want to get off of
>tubulars once they recognize them.

This could be a contributing factor, though the reason communicated
to me was that the clinchers will make the team mechanics' job a whole
lot easier.

>On the other hand, if you choose Greg Lemond as an example, you will
>notice that he rode with a Ciclomaster speedometer the last couple
>of seasons.  This instrument has such a miserable performance record
>that it can hardly be found on the US market.

Except in the catalog for Perfomance Bike Shop, the United State's leading
retail/mail order bike shop with sales last year totalling >$25 million.

Bruce