From: ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge)
Subject: Re: Ok, truce?
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:57:43 GMT

In article <910773f.43.724643257@axe.acadiau.ca> 910773f@axe.acadiau.ca (HEATHER LEE FYFFE) writes:
>Ok, I've posted a few things meant to be challenging yet inspirational.  I 
>have tried to show that I am intelligent and compassionate without seeming 
>pompous and conceited.  I seem to have failed at this quite miserably.  
>Therefore, I would like to make just a few points.
>
>Yes, I am a Christian.  No, I am not a Bible-basher.  If I seem to be, then 
>I apologize and accept your flames, and I will try to better myself.
>
>I did not try to imply that all atheists are me-ists.  I got going about me-
>ism (which, by the way, IS rampant in NA, as seen by certain best-selling 
>books which I STUPIDLY have forgotten the titles of but I will get back to 
>you... anyway...), and I still hold to what I said about the negative 
>aspects of selfish me-ism.  It is possible to be an atheist without being a 
>me-ist.  I can see that many of you do care about the world and it's 
>people.  However, it is also obvious that there _are_ some of you who don'
>t... there are people like that in all religions as well, including 
>Christianity.
>
>By no means do I agree with `fundies' who yell and scream at atheists, 
>trying to force them to convert.  Nor do I agree with churches that 
>restrict their member's contact with the `outside world'and all that 
>other stuff that's been discussed.  That is counterproductive and, yes, 
>brainwashing.  There are many `Christians' who have no idea what they're 
>doing, who stopped thinking long ago.  I don't believe that I am one of 
>these, though I am finding that I do have some dogmatic material in my head 
>that may not be correct - however, it may be, so I'm looking into it some 
>more, logically and rationally.
>
If your purpose is to fix the problems of the world, and you concede that
Christians share in these problems then shouldn't start with fixing
Christianity and your fellow Christians rather than trying to straighten
out the atheists.  Didn't Jesus once say something about that, something
about getting the "beam" out of your own eye before trying to get the "moat"
out of your neighbor's?  (I never could quite grasp King James English.)

If you're here to learn about atheism, and honestly evaluate atheists beliefs
then stay and learn, but if you're here to save the world then i think you
can find better places to start.

Now, personally, i don't think the world can be saved, by you or anyone else,
but then i also don't think it needs to be saved.  If the future of mankind
is enlightenment or destruction is something i cannot control nor something
i can care about.  The only thing i can control is myself, the only
contribution to improving the world that i can really make is to improve
myself, and the only practical purpose i can find in life is to live as best
as i can.  Perhaps you see this as me-ism, but i see it as the only practical
course of action.  Your approach of trying to convince others of their errors
seems to me to be both egotistical and doomed to failure (unless of course
you are a Buddha).

> [deletions]
>
>This newsnet is not a decent forum for serious discussions.  They are too 
>often interrupted by flames and sarcastic answers.  While these have their 
>place and are often called for, they are annoying to anyone trying to make a 
>serious point.  For example, someone says something, but doesn't say it 
>clearly.  Instead of getting a chance to restate what they were trying to 
>say, which was possibly very valid or interesting or thought-provoking or 
>whatever, they are flamed to death.  Out of embarassment, the flamee doesn't 
>bother to try again, and their insight is lost.
>
This is the nature of the beast.  It's hopeless to expect really serious
discussions here, although you might end up getting some good private email
discussions going.  Me, i come here for the flames and the sarcasm and the 
entertainment.

>[deletions]
>
>I don't approve of homosexuality.  However, I don't hate gays.  One of my 
>best friends is a bisexual.  ( I don't have many friends who are gay, not 
>because I am avoiding them, but because I just haven't met many.)
>
My best friend is a lesbian, which annoys me no end, since i find her much 
too attractive for that.

>I don't approve of circumcision.  It was, in the OT, a demonstration of a 
>pact between God and (I believe) Abraham.  I don't think that anywhere does 
>it say that all boys must still be circumcised.
>
Are you really a Christian or have they changed the OT recently?  Maybe
i misremember but i thought that circumsion was given by God to Abraham
and _all of his descendants_ as evidence of the contract between God and
his Chosen People.  For a boy not to be circumsized was a rejection of the
contract.  Of course, Christians had to sneak circumsion through the back
door of "health" to prove that they are really the chosen people.  OK, i'm
being sarcastic - one of the authors of the Epistles stated that it was not
necessary for Gentiles converting to Christianity to get circumsized.
 
>[deletions]
>
>I frelly acknowledge that a great many of Christian traditions stem from 
>ancient Pagan rituals.  For example, the Christmas tree, Dec. 25, etc.  I 
>celebrate these traditions, out of conformity and tradition I guess, but by 
>no means do they `make' the religion.  I would be just as happy not to have 
>a Christmas tree, it is completely unnecessary to the celebration of his 
>birth.  Christmas trees and wreaths in churches I find quite silly.  I do 
>not worship the tree or the traditions.
>
Why not keep the tree and the magical elf Santa Claus and throw out the
Christianity?  I'd like it better that way - a nice pagan, winter solstice,
magical celebration with no nonsense about the birth of God (maybe a pagan
should correct me about the horned god?).

>[deletions]
>
>Ok, that's it for me for now, have a blast.
>
>Buzzard

A truce is unacceptable in religious matters.  The Truth must be given to
all people, by force and even war if necessary.  As soon as i find the Truth
i'm going to war. :-)
-- 
allen@well.sf.ca.us
ethridge@bnr.ca
my opinions are my own