HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien comics
Date: 23 Jan 93 19:54:27
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: inet
	<8226@kielo.uta.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cardhu.cs.hut.fi
In-reply-to: f1toyl@uta.fi's message of 19 Jan 93 12:15:29 GMT

In article <8226@kielo.uta.fi> f1toyl@uta.fi (Topi Ylinen) writes:

! Ha! I've finally found it - or rather them. Three comic book albums:
! Fellowship parts 1 and 2 and Two Towers part 1. (TT part 2 and Return
! of the King parts 1 and 2 seemingly never came out - a note in the the
! TT part 1 says that it is the last book).

If that's true, then they are not drawn by David Wenzel. It's my
understanding that he's doing the whole Lord of the Rings. At least
I have his version of The Hobbit. Recommended. You might try
asking Eclipse Books, P.O. Box 1099, Forestville, California 95436.
Or just try a local comics store.

! The books are Finnish, but they have obviously been translated (from
! English)? The art is far superior to that in Finland.

Ignore that last sentence. ;-)

! The credits mention
! Elan Merchandising Inc. and Tolkien Enterprises but aside that there is
! no clue where the books are from.

No ISBN?

! The stories are naturally a simplified version, but reasonably faithful
! to JRRT's books. (I find them - even with occasional lapses - far more
! faithful than the recent artwork done by that artist whose name I cannot
! recall).

I have a feeling most of the speech bubbles(?) in this comic
contain original text from the book. It's quite entertaining...

...............................................................................
Ari Huttunen		Whenever you find that you are on the side of 
			  the majority, it is time to reform.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lscottmills@mta.ca
Subject: Songs of Middle Earth
Reply-To: lscottmills@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:37:29 GMT

Thanks everybody who replied to my posting.  Hope you don't mind if I answer
you all through the newsgroup.

If you would like to purchase the CD, you can send a cheque or money order to:
James Stark
P.O. Box 453
Sackville, New Brunswick
Canada   E0A 3C0

The price is $23.00 plus $2.50 for shipping and handling.  NB residents have to
add another 2.50 for PST.

The US price is $20.00 plus 3.00 for shipping and handling.

For those who asked what it's like:  I like it.  But since you don't know me or
my taste in music, that doesn't say much.  I also like Bach, Bachman Turner
Overdrive, Led Zeppelin, and Hal Ketchum.

Lynda
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: POPULATION OF GONDOR
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:28:37 GMT

In article <HIGHLNDR.93Jan21142725@csa.bu.edu> highlndr@csa.bu.edu (Sean Pfeiffer) writes:
>If I remember correctly, there were already Numenorian colonies located
>at Pelargir and Isengard (although Orthanc wasn't built yet) that were
>built long before around the middle of the Second Age (when the numenorians
>landed to help drive Sauron from Eriador)
>
>Sean

Besides, no doubt the ships were not small.  Remember, we are talking
Numenor at it's height of power.
Mithrandir

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:24:28 GMT
 <jjonsson.347@alexandria.lib.utah.edu>  <1k3r95INN84d@digex.digex.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1k3r95INN84d@digex.digex.com>
dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

> In article <jjonsson.347@alexandria.lib.utah.edu> jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu writes:
> >
> >My impression has always been that the Undying Lands are more than likely 
> >just a metaphor for some sort of paradise or heaven. After all, they 
> >separated physically from Middle Earth at some point late in the second or 
> >early in the third age of the sun. (Wasn't it after the Numenorean attack? 
> >Someone check me on this.)
> 
> That works for me in the context of LOTR.  In fact, that's how I viewed
> it on my first reading of LOTR (a few years before the Silmarillion 
> was published).  However, it does not work in the greater context of
> Middle Earth as described in the Silmarillion.  
> 
> I don't think this necessarily has to be a case where there is a
> discrepancy between the different books.
> 
> (Incidently, I prefer the more poetic view of the voyage to the
> Undying Lands being effectively moving to heaven.  I just don't
> think that this squares with the Silmarillion, wherein the Undying
> Lands are a definite place and not just a metaphor.)

I have no probably relating them in either context.  After all, the
Valar are god-like and the Maia who were in Arda could be considered
demi-gods.... anyone of a lesser order would consider this heaven or
paradise.  The journey the elves made to Arda from ME was like 'exodus'
to the 'promise land' or paradise.  Of course the Undying Lands seemed
like a definite place because a good deal of the events in the
Silmarillion happened there.  The physical moving of the Undying Lands
happened thousands of years before the third age when the stories of
the Hobbit and LotR all took place.  By then the Undying Lands were
merely a legend or myth...certainly anyone who believed in it's
existence considered it to heaven.  My $0.02....

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Mythos (Was: Re: Geography of M.E. Was: (Re: Blue Wizards?))
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:53:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.183154.23500@b11.b11.ingr.com>, craig@b11 (Craig Presson) writes:
>jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu writes:

>>I read in some book of criticism that Middle Earth is our own earth before 
>>the dawn of recorded history. Tolkien envisioned it as a system of myth 
>>which would take its place beside the gods and myths of the ancient Greeks 
>>and Romans. Primarily he intended it to be a system of myth for his own 
>>country to call its own, saying at some point that England had no myths, no 
>>magic, no past to truly call its own. (I disagree, just think of Arthurian 
>>Legend.)
>
>Nooooooooooo -- JRRT wanted a specifically _English_ epic and mythos, not a
>_British_ one. After all, who was it Arthur fought? And what nations gave rise
							 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to the _Mabinogion_, and later the Romance of Arthur?  The same ones JRRT had
 ^^				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>some fairly nasty things to say about in one or more letters ... although at
>least he had enough sense to admire the Welsh language. Hmmm, I hope I'm not
>starting The Great A.F.T.  Civil War :-)

Mediaeval Provence, right?  Tuck all that chivalry off in a place no one's ever
been, and you don't anger the local nobility while you entertain their ladies.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:19:32 GMT
Organization: Castle Anthrax

In article <2359@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>On the other hand, I think there's *every* reason to think that Tolkien was
>having a bit of fun and suggesting that Aristotle, and all subsequent makers
>of maxims, *really* got it originally from Bilbo Baggins, who coined the cliche
>back in the pre-history of our world.

Tolkien did that on a few other occasions. According to "The Hobbit",
Bilbo invented the proverb "Escaping goblins to be caught by wolves",
which comes down to us as "Out of the frying pan and into the fire".
His father Bungo used to say "Third time pays for all", which (I
presume) shortened to the modern "Third time's the charm".
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cpage@adobe.com (Chris Page)
Subject: Re: Saruman and Frodo (was Re: Power of races)
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: Adobe Systems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 03:51:05 GMT

In article <jjonsson.331@alexandria.lib.utah.edu>,
jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Jan18.170531.12178@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.bellcore.com (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
> 
> >In article <1993Jan18.081925.22812@b11.b11.ingr.com>, craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:
> >|> The parts before and after what was quoted are interesting too--
> >|> "There waqs a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and rspect 
> >|> and hatred. ' You have grown, Halfling,' he said 'Yes you have grown 
> >|> very much. You are wise, and cruel..."
> 
> >I always wondered about that passage.  The only previous meeting between Frodo
> >and Saruman was when Saruman met the hobbits and company on the road back North.
> >This was only a short while before the quoted scene, and nothing really
> >significant happened to Frodo in between (certainly not when compared to what
> >he went through before that!)  So what did Saruman mean?  "Grown" since when?
> >-- 
> 
> Saruman doesn't have to be referring only to the time between when they last 
> met. I'm sure he is referring to Frodo's whole journey. I can't imagine 
> Saruman not having personal knowledge of Frodo before his journey, so great 
> were his powers, what with spies, unknown magic and the palantir. . .

When Saruman said "You have grown, Halfling", I originally took it to mean
that he was speaking about Hobbits as a race, esp. considering Sarumans
time
scale is much larger than theirs and that he has "known" them for quite a
long time.

Chris Page
Adobe Systems, Inc.
cpage@mv.us.adobe.com

Disclaimer: these are my own opinions and not necessarily those of my
employer.
This is the Minimalist(tm) .sig, not to be confused with the Null(tm) .sig.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:29:15 GMT

Drin answers Jeff Liss:
>>The events in the book really don't get much more than a cursory
>>treatment, inspiring though it is.  Do all those other books (The
>>Books of Lost Tales, The [Lays] of Beleriand) elaborate on these
>>selfsame stories?

>The "History of Middle-Earth" series, starting from the Book of Lost 
>Tales, traces the development of JRRT's world through (real) time. So, 
>for example, the Book of Lost Tales gives the original version (1920's) 
>of what eventually became The Silmarillion. 
>The book published as "The Silmarillion" gives the latest version of 
>those stories, so naturally it's pretty much consistent with TLotR.

I would add that, in many cases, the tales in the History of Middle-
Earth series are much better, in my opinion.  They tend to be fleshed
out more and proceed in a more logical order.  They thus tend to "read"
better for me.  This is especially the case with Turin.

There are differences between the Silmarilion and the HOME versions,
but they are not so drastic in many of the tales that I would tend
to recommend the versions in the _Unfinished Tales_ over those of
the _Silmarillion_ in most cases.  The main problem in the _Unfinshed
Tales_ is that many of the tales are, just as the name implies, 
unfinished and so may stop half way through, which can be quite 
maddening.  What is there, however, I find to be clearly superior
to the _Silmarillion_ material.

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '...it's a tale, told by an idiot,
Iowa State University | full of sound and fury,
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | signifying nothing.'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: tunes for Tolkien songs
Keywords: road
Date: 27 Jan 93 14:23:57 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

reid@ucs.indiana.edu (Frank Reid) said:

[text of "The Road Goes Ever On" deleted]

>I like to sing it to a "folk" tune from the '60s, I think 
>recorded by The Seekers and/or Peter, Paul and
>Brunhilda^H^H^H^H^H Mary:
>
>   The water is wide, I can't cross o'er.
>   Nor do I have light wings to fly.
>   Build me a boat that can carry two,
>   And both shall roam, my love and I.

This is "from the '60s" the same way the sword "Excalibur" is from the
movie of that name.  The tune is "O waly waly", and versions exist in all
the regions of the U.K.  (E.g. the Scottish "Carrickfergus").  It's a very
old tune, to which zillions of things have been set.  (It's also a bit 
slower than I would have thought would be appropriate for a walking-song,
but chacun a son gout.)

>Does anyone know other tunes which fit this or other poems/songs 
>from LOTR?  

Funny you should ask... :-)

Try singing Sam's "Old Troll sat alone..." to the tune of "The Fox went out
on a winter's night."  The scansion fits so perfectly (even to the little
two-syllable tags and nonsense syllables) that I have to believe Tolkien had
that tune in mind when he wrote the poem.

>Why to PP&M look like muppets?

It's the hair.  (Fortunately, they sound rather better than Ernie and Bert...)


-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:16:46 GMT
 <C18LF8.Hu1@acsu.buffalo.edu> 
 <1993Jan23.015148.13436@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu>  
 <1993Jan25.140424.1@sep.vitro.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1993Jan25.140424.1@sep.vitro.com>
terrez@sep.vitro.com writes:

> There is, however, a song (can't remember the name, but I think it's on the same
> album) which contains the lyrics:
>       
>        'In the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair.  Then Gollum,
>         the evil one, crept up and swept away with her.'

This is from "Ramble On" off of Led Zep II.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: terrez@sep.vitro.com
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Vitro Corporation
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:04:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.015148.13436@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu>, tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson) writes:
> In article <C18LF8.Hu1@acsu.buffalo.edu> lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse) writes:
>>rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>>
>>>However,  Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to   
>>>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure
>>>**all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven). 
>>
>>well, if you were to look at the song, it might be construed to be about
>>galadriel in the specific, or at least the elves in the general. i haven't
>>listened to it in a bit, but i seem to also recall a line in there that goes
>>something to the effect of "there's a feeling i get, when i look to the west,
>>and my spirit is crying for leaving." kinda screams ELVES. at least to me...
> 
> As the keeper of the Led Zeppelin mailing list's FAQL, I suppose I should
> respond...
> 
> Plant has stated that Old English myths were floating around in his head
> while Page and Jones were working out the song on acoustic guitar, recorder,
> and keyboard.  He claims to have suddenly looked down in surprise to see that
> he had written, in a flash of inspiration, "There's a lady who's sure all that
> glitters is gold, and she's buying a stairway to heaven."  No mention of any
> kind of Tolkien influence has ever been mentioned by the band or its many
> biographers in reference to this song.
> 
> Thor Iverson

There is, however, a song (can't remember the name, but I think it's on the same
album) which contains the lyrics:
      
       'In the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair.  Then Gollum,
        the evil one, crept up and swept away with her.'
      
-- EZ
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Gift of Men (was Free Will)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:32:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.131049.12432@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:
>In article <16JAN199302241398@juliet.caltech.edu> waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy) writes:
>>One thing that I am surprised nobody seems to have mentioned yet on this
>>thread is the gift to Men, the Freedom of Iluvatar.  This section of the
>
>OK...let us begin a new thread...what exactly is the Gift of Men?
>
>I used to think that the Gift of Men was the chance to die *or* the 
>ability to leave the Circles of the World after death.
>
>Now, I am thinking that the Gift of Men also includes the free will
>to choose between good and evil. Note that elves, orcs, and the like
>are portrayed as being totally good or evil. They are not capable of
>being otherwise (no flames regarding Feanor please...).
>
>Of course, elves can be deceived into doing evil things, a la Feanor,
>but had Feanor understood Melkor's intentions and meddlings, he
>may have acted differently.
>
>Other thoughts on this topic?
>
>Feadin

It is my impression that the spirits of the Elves helped sing the Music and
so are bound by it.  Men were created by Iluvatar alone, and becasue they
took no part in making the Music, they could add to it as they desired.
Plus, Iluvatar gave them a desire to do and see new things, to never be content
in one place.  Contrast this to Elrond and Galadriel who lived in their
respective homes for a while.

Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:24:54 GMT

In article <1k0sthINNpj4@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>Sam took a ship west to join them.
>
>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?

As a general rule, yes. This seems to be an exception. But we have no
indication that Bilbo and Frodo went to Valinor proper; my reading is
that they went to Tol Eressea (aka "Elvenhome"), an island near
Valinor.  This may count as a "suburb" of the Undying Lands, and the
restriction may be less rigorous.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mdh@mlb.semi.harris.com (Mark Hanson)
Subject: Re: Beren and Luthien
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:35:46 GMT
Reply-To: mdh@mlb.semi.harris.com (Mark Hanson)
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne, Fl.

In article <s4q3m8+@rpi.edu>, johnsc3@jec313.its.rpi.edu (Craig F.
Johnson) writes:

|> I have a couple of questions which I would like some answers to if
anyone knows them.  First, is there anything else written about the
story of Beren's life, or his love with Luthien other than what is
written in the Quenta Simarillion?  I have been looki|> ng since I first
read Sim(about 7 or 8 years ago)  I can not get this story out of my
head, and I would appreciate the help.

I believe there is the "full" story on this in "Unfinished Tales" 
|> 
|> The second is purely speculation, and I am curious about the feelings
of others on this -- is Sting, the 'sword' carried by Bilbo and later
Frodo, actually Angcrist (Sp?), the dagger which Beren took from
Celegorm and later cut the Simaril from the Iron C|> rown with?  I have
been unable to find any information either for or against this theory
(it is possible that I have missed something in something that
Christopher Tolkien has published).
|> 

Not possible, unless the dagger was reforged.
When prying the Silmaril from the Iron Crown the dagger broke and the 
shard of the dagger cut the cheek of Melkor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Hanson
Go Gators, Go Bills (Not all us Bills fans are loud woofing Assholes!!!)
============================================================================
Harris Semiconductor             Internet:   mdh@mlb.semi.harris.com
PO Box 883 MS 62B-022            Work Phone: (407) 724-7572
Melbourne, Fla. 32902
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Fandom
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:20:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.031557.15381@datamark.co.nz>, thomas@datamark (Thomas Beagle) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.023028.16069@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
>>
>>All really provide a feeling of long ages of history beyond what is written.
>
>Speaking of such, I think Katherine Kurtz's Deryni novels have a lot
>going for them.
>
>The first three are a bit amateurish but her style improves a lot -
>and things have been very well thought out with a tight history and
>other such things.

Folks keep bringing up works that I like a great deal.

Kurtz is excellent, and is very much *not* a clone universe.  But the sense, as
opposed to the *use*, of history is less, IMO.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien