HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: UNGAY GAY ad
Summary: check out *your* alternative paper
Organization: secret motss cabal, investigative division
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:02:21 GMT

in article <_dqmv1h.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (jack hamilton)
writes, about the same ad appearing in columbus, ohio, and ithaca, n.y.:

 >Maybe it's the same person, who commutes.  Or maybe it's coded messages
 >from some secret organization.  Perhaps the anti-pods (antipodes?) are
 >organizing an attack.  On guard, cabal!

it has occurred to me that the ad might have been placed by one of
those organizations that proposes to "cure" gay people.  (and it's
probably occurred to *you* that i might be paranoid.)

it would be interesting to find out if it's appeared in other alternative
papers (_metro_ in san jose, etc.). check them out, folks, and let
me know.  if it has, then i think the papers themselves would be
very interested in knowing about it.  (i think the _columbus alive_
people would try to get at least a little story out of it.)

arnold
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Homophobia & Misogyny
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:43:50 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco

> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>>I don't know if "cocksucker" really does miss the mark all 
>>that much.  Look, these straight boys are freaked out by
>>gay men in part because we transgress those all-important
>>gender boundaries.  A gay man who sucks cock is something
>>of a woman in their eyes, and we know what straight boys
>>think of women, don't we?
>
>Indeed when the history and sociology of homophobia is a lot
>more fully developed, I'm sure we'll know much more about
>the interrelationships of homophobia and misogyny...

For more on this fascinating topic, I refer you to Suzanne
Pharr's excellent "Homophobia: A Weapon of Sexism".  There's
also a fine article in the first issue of "Out" magazine
(very disappointing 'zine otherwise :-(), by Helen Zia,
executive editor of "Ms." magazine, discussing why gay men
should support women's issues...
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Why?
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:33:48 GMT

In article <70572@apple.Apple.COM>, richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
> Gesso Anderson:
> 
> (sorry about the name, I have Liquitex on the brain)
> 
> >Whaddya mean, "seem to be" -- they [the fundies] *are better organized,
> >*lots* better.
> 
> Again I ask: why is this?  Especially here, in SF?  As you wrote:

  It seems to me that there are many good reasons for this. The primary
one is that the binding elements of each group is *far* different. For
gay people, that element is sexuality. Sexuality does not in and of itself
reduce to a set of common values and goals (other than the obvious). 
Politically, this is not a very optimal situation. The religious groups,
on the other hand, do share a set of common values and goals. Politically
this is *far* easier to organize into a coherent message.
  Another aspect might be the fact that religious groups regularly meet
at their church. This makes for a convenient bully-pulpit for someone
with an agenda.  The only analogous thing for queers is the pride parades
and perhaps the various support groups. Unfortunately, these are only
rare events, or very fractured and directed at other sorts of problems.
If the gay community had an analogous community structure as "church"
where people gather in a social and lightly political setting on a
regular basis things might be vastly different. Soc.motss in a lot
of ways provides that sort of outlet for me, unfortunately I don't
really see a soc.motss equivalent in the "real" world.
  A third aspect is that in the end analysis, we still hide. What percentage
of queers are not out (or out enough to make a political statement). My
guess is that it is pretty high. Out here in the homophobic hinterlands
it is much easier to be non-controversial than taking a stand. People
in general, IMHO, are not political. Add fear to that apathy and I think
that the current situation is pretty understandable.
  A fourth aspect is the issue of self-loathing. A lot of us from a 
very young age have been taught that sexuality in general is evil,
and that homosexuality in particular is an unforgivable sin. Most of
us carry some of this baggage around, and it is hard to get all worked
up about a cause when you are not entirely certain that they (the 
sex haters) are not right. The religious folks with their blind faith
and moral certainty do not seem to suffer from this form of guilt, or
if they do they use their guilt as a catalyst to avenge the non-believers.
  What can be done about all of this? I wish I knew :-(
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: hsu@sp24.csrd.uiuc.edu (William Tsun-Yuk Hsu)
Subject: Re: British Pronounciation
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 21:36:06 GMT

adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>I most certainly did *not* make that up.  These are all opera singers.
>Helmut Berger-Tuna is a young (for an opera singer) Austrian bass; 

Come now, Arne, a Tuna who's a bass? Surely you're making this up.

(sorry)

Bill
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.sex.motss
From: elee74l@Rosie.UH.EDU
Subject: Re: Hi. I'm Dave.
Reply-To: elee74l@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:04:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.170804.11934@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, dthompso@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Thompson) writes:
>
>
>Hello, my name is David Thompson, and I think I speak for homosexuals
>worldwide when I say, golly-gee-gosh!  Sometimes I get so mad I could
>just stomp my foot!  People today are so homophobic it's terrible.  Just
>as the color of someone's skin doesn't matter, neither should who a person
>chooses to boink or be boinked by. Man, woman, both, or neither.
>Gay Rights Forever!  Wake up America!
> 

Hi.  I assume this is your first posting; I welcome you.  
	I agree with you that we GLBs should have equal rights and shouldn't be
so discriminated.  However, I started to notice some of us are indirectly
discriminating ourselves from the rest of the straight world.  Just today,
I received a e-mail as a responds to one of my replied posting.  That mailer
said something like "I wouldn't kiss straight people's ass just to hold my
boyfriend in public," and all I had said was we had been advocating the 
public to accept us as who we are.
	I didn't bother to reply back because I don't need junk flame mails
like that in my account.  So I just simply deleted it.
	Anyway, my point is... as long as we discriminate ourself from the
straight world either consciously or unconsciously, we will always be
discriminated.  We need to work WITH the straight world, not AGAINST it.
	I would LOVE to crosspost this posting to soc.bi to see what they
think about this, but I don't know how.  )-8

Ken
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wednesday, 22 Jul 1992 17:24:51 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: There was this sign in the window...
 <1992Jul22.004230.26173@reed.edu> <1992Jul22.013626.14792@spdcc.com>
 <1992Jul22.035831.10755@reed.edu>

what if the poor fragile flowers DID have big nasty men coming
on to them?  no law against coming on to people.  women haev to
deal with it all the time.  the laws against sexual harassment
are for the workplace.  not a hell of a lot to be done about the
street, unless we are willing to surrender some rights to do it.

personally, if men stuck to makign passes and such on the street
only at each other, i would be quite happy.  but it ain;t going to
happen.  i tip the scales at 185, at five foot five, and peopel
make passes at ME in the street.  it's just one of those things.
rude, but not something to offend all & sundry over to avoid.

                                              -ailsa
--
It's not what you got, it's what you give           _______________
It ain't the life you want, it's the life you live. \    DYKE    /
It's not what you got, it's what you give             \ PRIDE! /
And it ain't what it's not, but what it is.             \    /
(IO81409@maine.maine.edu or wang.com!ailanth!ailsa)       \/
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: all you fags out there!!!!
Keywords: who wants a date!!!!
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:28:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.142131.24841@seq.uncwil.edu> harrist@seq.uncwil.edu (Trey Harris) writes:
>
[weird stuff mercifully deleted]

I'm not sure which is worse,  this stuff on what the 'phobes spout.

Peter Thomas


-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook

Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:08:00 GMT

jd> Jason Durbin
gs> Gary Strand

gs> Anyway, exclaiming one's own victimhood has never impressed me.

jd> I suppose then, that we should tell all those holocaust whiners to shut 
jd> up and accept that "Life ain't fair". Perhaps we Americans should shut up
jd> about the Day of Infamy because "Life ain't fair". We should also shut up
jd> about the people crossing the southern border and living in the US
jd> illegally because "Life ain't fair". etc...

  Intentionally being ridiculous, or is such a state unavoidable?

  What bothers me about this great contest to see who's been victimized most
  (and therefore deserves the most protection) is that there is no Calculus
  of Victimhood that can be applied to come up with an objective solution.
  Are gays more victimized than black teen males? Are women more victimized
  than Hispanics? Do we start assigning "victimization points" to individ-
  uals based on various groupings, the highest point total being the "winner"?

  Oh, and by the way, life isn't fair. Show me where they said it was.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Xref: sparky soc.motss:33057 rec.arts.tv:15597 talk.politics.misc:36564 rec.arts.tv.uk:4590 alt.individualism:4734 rec.arts.tv.soaps:27321 alt.activism:13717
From: gibson@dl5000.bc.edu (Rene Gibson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,talk.politics.misc,rec.arts.tv.uk,alt.individualism,rec.arts.tv.soaps,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:09:42 GMT
	<l76kmjINN2gt@mizar.usc.edu>
	<1992Jul27.023738.469@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: Institute for Space Research, Boston College

In article <1992Jul27.023738.469@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes:

>   In article <l76kmjINN2gt@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
>   writes:
>
>   #In article <2A733D51.5586@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
>   #cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) blathers about
>   #something that I decided to delete.
>   #Drop dead, asshole.
>
>   And exactly how, pray tell, was Mr. Edman supposed to know that you
>   later decided to delete the article?

He's supposed to be psychic, of course.  I guess it's like dropping a letter
in the mailbox, then changing your mind, but not being able to retrieve the 
letter until *AFTER* the recipient has read and commented on it.  It's the
recipient's fault for not realizing the sender changed his mind.
--
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32492 rec.arts.tv:15333 rec.arts.tv.uk:4497 rec.arts.tv.soaps:26503
From: ung@felix.filenet.com (Bill Ung)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.tv.uk,rec.arts.tv.soaps
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:05:36 GMT
Reply-To: ung@fritz.filenet.com (Bill Ung)
Organization: FileNet Corp., Costa Mesa, CA

In article <1992Jul20.190203.21469@ccu.umanitoba.ca> wyatt@ccu.umanitoba.ca
writes:
|  For a while now I have been trying to compile a list of television programs 
|that have included gay/lesbian characters as a part of their regular (or 
|semi-regular) casts. Many shows have "dealt" with gays in a single episode or 
|story line, but just how many have included gays on a regular (or recurring) 
|basis?  My intention is to keep the list to network and widely-syndicated 
|entertainment shows in the English language.   This includes shows seen on 
|broadcast or cable television nationally (or very widely) in the U.S.,
|Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and/or other English-speaking nations.
|   For my purposes a character is described as "recurring" if he or she has 
|appeared in at least three episodes.
| If you know them, the details I seek include show title, type of show (drama,
|situation comedy, etc.), character's name, actor's name, network or cable 
|service carrying the show, and years the show was seen.  Any recollections
|would be greatly appreciated, as detailed or as sketchy as they may be.
|   The list I have compiled so far includes only 39 shows: 8 British, 3 
|Australian, 2 Canadian, and 26 American.  If you would like a copy of the list
|as it is now, please send me an e-mail request.
|   If you can recall any shows including regular, semi-regular or 
|recurring/occasional gay, lesbian or bisexual characters, please post a 
|follow-up, or e-mail them to me at:  wyatt@ccu.umanitoba.ca

ABC's TV Soap Opera "Dynasty" had a gay character.  Steven/Stephen Carrington,
son of multi-millionare (billionare?) Blake Carrington was gay.  He even
had a gay lover whom Blake accidentally killed.  I never watched the show
in any great detail.  I know the actor who originally played Steve Carrington
changed after the first season (possibly during the first season), and I
don't know if his sexual preference faded into the background in later
seasons.

My favorite (already mentioned) is still Billy Crystal as Jodie Dallas
in "Soap".  I really wish they'd put "Soap" re-runs back on again.

Bill Ung
  ung@filenet.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: the b-word
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:21:41 GMT


In article <92204.171130IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

|> i'd say that i'll be sure never to show pictures of katy around,
|> but off the net i usually find that peopel ASK to see pictures.
|> it's funny how different the net is from the people i know in
|> person.  when i was taking katy with me to wilde-stein meetings
|> and other gay functions, she was in danger of being spoiled
|> rotten, from the attention all the guys were giving her.  but then,
|> none of the guys i know are as political as the guys on the net either,
|> so i guess it evens out...

I would be *very* surprised if the "guys" who were spoiling
katy had different ideas about the term "breeder" than
the "guys" here.  I would also be surprised if katy could not
manage to charm the "guys" here equally well.

The net is not an accurate representation of the world it
connects.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:47:05 GMT
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA

In article <1992Jul28.014856.4343@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>In article <l78d51INNavl@mizar.usc.edu>
>adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (Arne Adolphson) writes:
>
>>Perhaps it was a bigoted remark.  I'm not terribly
>>concerned, though.
>
>Well, perhaps you should be.  How can you have such a
>callous disregard for the results of bigotry as to feign
>being unconcerned at the same time as you complain about
>being discriminated against?

Indeed.

How can you?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You mean there are TWO of you, Pierce?
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  God help us all."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32231 rec.arts.tv:15184 rec.arts.tv.uk:4437 soc.bi:9395
From: bunky@milton.u.washington.edu (Mike)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.tv.uk,soc.bi
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:44:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul23.014417.9882
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


Billy Crystal played a homosexual on Soap on ABC in the early 80's.  I 
remember they dealt with it in kind of a goofy way but Soap was a goofy
show
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Argggg (Job market)
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:09:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.234015.26077@queernet.org> rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.223047.28176@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>>Let me get this right, a head hunter is going to get 30% or more of
>>my earnings and yet I don't have the right to question there refusal
>>to accept responses via e-mail?
>
>Correct.  If you don't want their help, in exactly the way they prefer
>to do business, don't take it and shut up.

This is silly, I have two choices-
1) State my disagreement and not reject there services.
2) Reject there services and not bother to tell them why.

Taking option 2 is just plain silly, in option 1 they might change
there mind, and I might still get a job. In option 2 they won't change
there mind and I won't get a job. Why should I take the garanteed 
lose lose option?

>>Money is important but personal integrity is more important...
>
>And their willingness to read e-mail is a point of integrity?  

Refusing to even have a minor disagreement with someone because your
afraid it will cost you money shows a lack of integrity. If a head
hunter suggests that I learn C++ I don't yell at them about biting
the hand that feeds them and slam down the phone. If I suggest that
a head hunter extend the courtesy of accepting e-mail I see no reason
why I should treated any differently.
Actually a number of head hunters stated that they agree with my position
and that they would rather see the othes not take e-mail because the
ones accepting e-mail have an advantage :-)

>I
>wouldn't hire anyone whose sense of proportion is so out of whack...

If questioning someones refusal to use e-mail is such an offense that
they wouldn't hire you I would hate to see how they treat there employees.
Imagine having to go to that person when a problem arises in a project
where you have to take a position that disagrees with theres.

Me-Mr. Employeer Sir. I humbly beseech thee to listen to my plea.
Them-You know how we treat desenters, do you really want this job?
Me-[kneeling] Master Sir. the font files will not fit in 10 megs, should
    we increase the space alotted for them, or remove some fonts?
Them-HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES!!!! YOUR FIRED!!!
      YOU WILL NEVER WORK IN THIS CITY AGAIN!! NO NOT IN THIS COUNTRY!!
      ACTUALLY I'M HAVING A CONTRACT TAKEN OUT ON YOU SO YOU NEVER WORK
      AGAIN!!!!!!

Sorry there are some jobs I'd rather pass up :-)
-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: resonances
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:00:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul28.060025.23824
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

[how does Arnold always manage to post interesting things?]

In article <deafpride@vadier.gr.osf.org> emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:
>While (as Arnold points out) there are important differences, the
>tales of deaf people resisting attempts to force them to be "normal"
>and of the establishment of Deaf Pride groups are surely striking to
>any gay person.

What's also striking to me is the amount of synergy there is between
people who are fluent in sign (at least ASL) and lesbigay people. My
experience is somewhat sketchy - I only have data from Portland and
Seattle, and only from two or three people. But it seems like a
proportionately huge number of signers are lesbigay.

For one thing, I'm impressed with the number of lesbigay events that
are sign-interpreted. I've been to a lot of political demonstrations
in the last two years, and only the lesbigay ones have been
consistently signed. And I've *never* seen any choral concert signed
except for the Portland Gay Men's Chorus (and signed beautifully.
Unfortunately I do not know the language, but watching the signers
perform was as artistically interesting as listening to the music).

I'm also told by a bisexual ASL-fluent hearing friend of mine (phew)!
that a large proportion of the volunteer sign translators and TDD
translators are lesbigay. I've known for awhile that a
disproportionate number of community volunteers are family, but does
anyone know why there's an apparant bias towards deaf communication?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   There is absolutely no other possibility
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32214 talk.politics.misc:35399 alt.individualism:4450 alt.activism:13300
From: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,alt.activism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:42:23 GMT
Reply-To: rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <1992Jul22.220842.27283@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.202834.16597@pony.Ingres.COM> rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner) writes:
>>In article <nkghems@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>>>libertarianism would give white heterosexual males the freedom to return
>>>to the exploitive days of the past.
>>
>>This has nothing to do with race, gender, sexuality.  It is becoming rather
>>typical that this particular group is blamed for anything bad that
>>was/is/will-be.
>
>"This particular group" is generally the group who has never
>experienced any kind of institutionalized discrimination, and therefore
>might find it difficult to imagine what would be wrong with
>
>I find it hard to believe that anyone (not necessarily you, rogerl)
>could reflect on the racism in America up thru the 1940's and claim
>with a straight face that we'd all be better off if the court cases
>and civil rights laws since that time had not occurred.  Dare I ask

This caveat is fortunate.  I have no such claims or ideas.  I have always
been an advocate of equal rights for every individual.

That means my rights are equal to yours, and there is no reason for me
to attempt to provide harbor for guilt that there has been inequality in
the past.

It is the attempts to pile a thousand years of inequality upon the shoulders
of those white hetero males who are alive today that is a pile of dung.
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,alt.activism