From: lfosdal@falcon.no (Lars Fosdal)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: GUI+CLI= Good 4 U
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:47:10 MET
Organization: Falcon Information Services AS, Oslo, Norway

Warning! Another lengthy ramblin' on the GUI vs CLI question...

>johnsd2@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:

>>>>> The notion that you can't combine a useful GUI and an effective CLI
>>>>> into the same system is nonsense, 

> [not somehting I ever said, incidentally. Hope I dont get accused of
> doing so because I am with someone who agrees with this]

I guess Mr.Vlcek said this with an general adress...

[Deleted - Moving commands to toolbar/palette etc.]
>>I already did that.  The most commonly used functions are already in the
>>toolbar, and so is all of the drawing functions.

> Ow. Well, I don't know all the details of your interface. I'll still
> try to come up with improvements, but some will surely be gibberish
> and other obvious ones I'll miss. Oh well.

All suggestions are welcome!

[Deletia - Subject: How to improve a ugly menu]

>>>Put all these in a single level menu?  No way!

> I was not suggesting it. That is one hell of a menu; I see why you
> feel the CLI is faster in this case. It is, but I'd say that was because
> your GUI was so awful here. (pardon me for being so blunt, but I've never
> see a menu that nasty)

I agree, it _is_ nasty, but I don't see an obvious remedy...

> I dont understand what all these items do. Might I ask which ones produce
> dialogs (modeless, no doubt)?  

It would take a lot of space/time to describe every item, but all of the
commands perform different mathematical operations on the orignal price
data and produces one or more graphs.

MA, EMA, WMA, MO, VAF, MAA, PR, RSI, MR, PC, DMI, VOL, VPT, MAV, and ROC
all expect an integer (days, weeks, months) that describes the period of
points to work on; WMA 9 - Do a 9-day weighted moving average.

ST and SST expect two such periods.

TBW and TBE expect a period and a floating point number (% offset)

CMP, CMI, RS, and DIF expect the name of a symbol that will be loaded
and graphed.

And, no, the dialogs are not modeless because at least two of these studies
are dependant of the previous analysis, but don't take parameters (MAD, MAA). 
The dialogs are constructed at run-time, so studies/commands with more than
one parameter at least get all parameters in the same dialog.


> You say you have a toolbar; how big? Does it have menulike properties
> (as some do)? tried floating palettes yet? Modeless dialogs that sorta
> hang around alot? I presume if you've added any such, they know
> enough to remember if htey were up when the program was quit, and
> restore themselves. Or something along those lines.

Does the MDI "Multiple Document Interface" ring a bell ?
If not, it's the ability to have several sub-apps managed by a single app
within its own desktop.The menu is modified by the sub-app whenever it 
gets the focus.  Currently, my app has three different sub-app windows,
and there is another planned for the future.

The toolbar is currently 17 items, and they are 8 drawing tools,
open/close window, arrange windows, printing, section layout, and 
clearing a section.

If I could find meaningful "icons" for each study, I'd gladly use
a palette, but then the user would have to figure out all the 
unfamiliar shapes floating around in front him.  Also, palettes and MDI
isn't always easy to combine.



>> Also, the CLI commands are abbreviations of the study name, so they are
>> not hard to memorize.

> This only makes it easier if you memorize the exact command names.
> Its not a big improvement. imho.

Well, this is a pretty vertical product, and most of the users are
either professional brokers or technical analysts, so they'll already know 
the proper name of most studies.  


>[deletia- many commands = hard time]
>>As you may have noticed, the 40+ commands are *study-only* commands.
>>Cut/Paste/Print/Save/Load/Windowing/Setup/Drawing/Import/Export/housekeeping
>>and so on are not included.

> So I see; what are the other menus? (ie how many are there? Are the
> just as bad?)

The main chart menu looks like
  File  Edit  Study  Chart  Draw  Broker  Window          Help
but none of the other are as bad as Study.

[Restructuring the menus...]
> I was thinking of your GUI command count. I think you've got a very
> similar idea of what a "command" is.
> You've got quite a lot of them, but they do look like they could be
> consolidated a bit- but perhaps not. I dont know enought about it yet.

If you read Windows .RC files, I could mail you the menu ?
The total number of menu-choices... between 70 and 80... I think.


>>>Check. New improved command line. What's this "prompter" thing exactly?
>>You guessed it: a "popup" dialog.  Just start typing your commands.
>Yech. Why not modeles dialog? :/

Because it occupies too much space...There are some poor SOB's that
only have the 640 by 480 rez., and the dialog would simply be in the way.
At least the dialog pops up dead center of the current window, which is 
about the spot you would be looking at when doing a study.


[deletia - on remembering commands]
>>Of course there are no absolutes.  I can't remember every available
>>function in my libraries, but I can find them when I need them.
>>As for *functions I use regularily*, I usually remember them.  Don't you?.

> I remember them, yes, but I often must look up parameters etc.

Actually, so do I.., Luckily, in this case there are not to many variations, 
and the CLI will filter out misplaced parameters and prompt when bad ones are 
given and simply ignore any surplus params or misspelled commands.

However, I'd expect every respectable trader, broker or analyst to
know most of the studies.  I didn't invent the names...they did.


[deletia- descriptions of CLI and GUI techniques in my prog]

> I don't think much of your ui, as I said.
:'(  Sob...whimper...whine... :-)
  

> Minor nitpicks: why did you activate moving average, do something,
> then close it, then do it AGAIN. Kinda kludgy. Why?

Because one MA creates one graph, and I wanted two MA graphs, 
plotted together in the same chart.
i.e.
User: Do an MA
  PC: over what period ?
User: Do another MA
  PC: over what period ?


> Im not sure but it looks like you should stick the "by days"
> and "Line Chart" stuff ina floating palette, the layout dialog could
> do that. 

This _is_ a good idea!  I think I could put the layout style in that
same palette.  The Line Chart stuff doesn't fit, because it's a command
to plot the price, and you don't always want the price.
You also gave me an idea: How about a floating palette with the 
date range ?  Instead of START <date> and END <date>, I'd use a "ruler"
with two sliders.  


> What "style 2" is I dont know, but I am pretty sure it shouldnt
> be called "style 2"; try a graphical representation.  

What luck! I did!  The dialog for the "W"indow command
is a graphic pick list (all items visible).  and "style 2" is 
the ASCII representation of an untypable icon :-)


> Incidentally, why do you have "Chart" and "Study" menus? 
> Why not move everything up one level?

I feel it would add too many items to the main menu.
Also, Chart is mostly related to layout, while Study is related to
content.  

> I could probably come up with more, but not without a better
> handle on your program.

If you want to, I could uuencode a few snapshots and mail them...
I'd be happy to hear your suggestions.  Just name the picture format.


[potential endless debate about remembering/selecting studies deleted]

>>Well, I'm not trying to "convert" you, but I hope you see my point, even
>>if we don't agree. GUI+CLI=Flexible ?

> GUI+CLI = Flexible but Obnoxious in spots.
> hows that?

When you're right, you're right.  I'll have to agree.


> BTW, are programs with GUI interfaces like yours commonplace 
> where CLIs are availiable? 

No, at least not in the Windows world. Actually MS Excel has 
a certain likeness, when it comes to enter functions in a spreadsheet 
cell.  The functions are available from the menu, but via a single listbox
in dialog...which I think is even worse, considering the huge number of
functions in that spreadsheet.


> I know X loves them, but its just awful anyway. It looks to me like you feel 
> you can use such a menu structure because you have a CLI to fall back on. :/

Hmmm... I'd go for any alternative, if only I could consider it an 
improvement.  The CLI part is as good as I've been able to make it, and it
will stay, but I'd really like to find an alternative that's not as 
cumbersome as using the menu.



>			- Dan Johnson

Season's Greetings !
Lars F.

PS.
> These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
> You'll never know whose they are.

I love this sig :-)

--
/ Mr.Lars Fosdal, Software Developer, Financial Analysis Systems  /
/ Falcon Information Services AS, Stranden 1, N-0250 Oslo, Norway /
/ E-mail:lfosdal@falcon.no  Tel:(47-2) 831310  Fax:(47-2) 831290  /
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Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.setup