From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is consciousness?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 14:22:59 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:

>   But so why cannot "consciousness" exist for the life forms simulated by my
> computer?  If consciousness is independant of matter than the fact that they
> only exist in the computer should not be a barrier.  I would really like to
> know: what _exactly_ is it that makes them consciousless?

Because they are not life at all, but simulations. They are, depending
on your level of description, photons in your optic nerve, or electrons
in a circuit, or areas of magnetic alignment on a disk, or sequences of
instructions in a computer, etc. If something is really alive, then it
is conscious.

> >>  Q4: If I was capable of manufacturing an exact duplicate of a human being
> >>would that duplicate be conscious?  If so, how accurate do I have to be?  C
> >>this be done by a simulation in the computer?
> > 
> >No, the exact duplicate of the human body would not be conscious. And
> >this is a big "if" anyway, considering that scientists do not have any
> >idea how to manufacture even a single cell. In fact, they have not even
> >identified everything that is in a cell!
> 
>   Why wouldn't it be conscious?  You said that a virus was conscious, it
> wouldn't be too hard to manufacture a virus (I'm willing to bet it will be
> technically achievable within the next ten years if it isn't already).

If a virus body were manufactured by human beings, it would not be
conscious either. Both a human body and a virus body without
consciousness are just dead bodies. The soul, which is the source of
consciousness, must be inserted into the body before it can be
designated as living. This is not within the power of any human being.

>   Now, let us say I have made this manufactured virus.  It would not be, in a
> way, distinguishable from the real thing (right down to the atomic structure)
> What is it about the real virus that makes it conscious and the man made one
> not?
> 
>   If you cannot give a clear separation then you have your answer why science
> doesn't address the concept of consciousness by your definition: it is not we
> defined.
> 
> >The point is that consciousness is not a function of matter, it is
> >matter that is a function of consciousness. Your watch, your computer,
> >your simulation program, and the body you build are all produced by the
> >action of your consciousness. They are products made from matter under
> >the direction of your consciousness. Of course, you did not personally
> >create the raw materials from which these things were constructed, you
> >simply engineered them. The raw materials themselves were produced by
> >the action of another consciousness, the "Superconsciousness" (God).
> 
>   Hold on.  My body is "produced by the action of" my "consciousness" as far 
> I can understand your definitions.  Does this mean that my consciousness
> inhabits the alife programs I write?  Or does it mean that my consciousness i
> not really associated with my body (which means that consciousness would not 
> associated with life, a contradiction with your previous statements).

No. Your consciousness is affecting certain (but not all) of your own
bodily characteristics, and certain of the characteristics of the things
you build. But "you" in the proper sense, the soul that is personally
you, cannot create another soul. Soul is a nonphysical entity which does
not behave according to the causal structure of physical law.
Consciousness, which is a nonphysical property of the nonphysical soul,
cannot be studied by the reductionistic methods. But it can be studied
scientifically, provided the scientific paradigm is expanded to include
the acknowledgement that these nonphysical entities exist.

> >Material analogies may help in understanding consciousness, but
> >consciousness cannot be reduced to a material phenomenon.
> 
>   I didn't ask if these were a consciousness, I asked if the _had_
> consciousness.  If you misunderstood could you go back and check your answers

Since only the soul "has" consciousness, no. No machine we build can
ever be conscious or have consciousness. We cannot build nonphysical
entities using physical instruments. Nor can nonphysical entities be
expected to emerge as a function of any purely physical operation. They
are an altogether different kind of phenomenon.

Life comes from life!

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa


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