From: singram@eng.auburn.edu (Scott Ingram)
Subject: Re: Explaining anarchy to your friends?
Reply-To: singram@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 06:13:22 GMT


In an email post to me, dwp@VEGA.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.055544.3700@news.duc.auburn.edu> you write:
>+debating and he was a `pure' anarchist. Let everyone do whatever they want,
>+otherwise you can't be free. He believe's that he does not have the `right'
>+to stop someone from doing whatever they want. In fact he despises the word
>+`right' and thinks no one should think they have anything coming to them.
>
>Does freedom only apply to everyone else?  Are you not free to do
>whatever you want, including removing others freedom?  Are not other
>people to be free to remove yours?
>
Yes, I am free to do whatever I want. Everyone has free will. My personal
philosophy states that I will not (or at least attempt to not) use any
form of violence or coercion to bend others to my will. I am very successful
in not using physical coercion on people, but mental/verbal coercion is
still there. I am working on removing that.

Also, I am not free to remove others freedom if I want to stay true to myself.
Sure, I am capable of it. But, I choose not to do it. And yes, people are free
to remove my freedom. They do it all the time.

>+You're lucky. I have one friend that I used to relate to well, but
>+things have changed and I no longer do. It sucks, becuase I am
>+still going through the motions of sharing my life with him, and he
>+goes through the motions of caring. But I think we both realized recently
>+that it is all a farce. I haven't seen him for several days, may not
>+see him for several more weeks. But so it goes.
>
>I.e. freedom sucks.  People may choose to do things you don't like.  As
>Kant said, paraphrased, you can only judge actions as moral (or perhaps as
>counting as moral) when they are done against any selfish interests of the
>actor.  Your ability to leave up to an ideal of Freedom is not tested
>until it damages you in some way to hold with it, and you so do.

Sure, people choose to do things that affect me all the time. What am I 
supposed to do? Just say, 'Oh well, nobody else will live up to my ideal,
guess it was stupid, I'll just drop it now?' Just because you and everyone
else have this idea that my ideal is incomprehensible and `wrong' doesn't
mean I will just give it up. Its what I believe in. Do you murder just because
other people do? Do you stop not murdering just because others have? This may be
a harsh comparison, but I have never modelled my life on what I see others
do.

>+>>Nothing like baring your soul and getting it stepped on. And the bad thing is
>+>>it wasn't malicious. Just a blatant inability to understand me, even
>
>+>>By cutting myself off I am protecting myself from that pain, which is something
>+>>that I need right now. But they still didn't understand even that.
>
>The comments that I posted apply here as well.  Perhaps you need to
>realize that good friends can accomodate such things, even if they don't
>understand them.  I'm not saying you have fair weather friends, but they
>may be dealing with their own emotional 'dung pile' less than optimally as
>well.

Yes, my friends are completely comfortable with having me around. That is
the problem. I NEED understanding, or at the very least, respect. A few
of my friends respect my views, but none understand them. Do you enjoy
talking to your friends about things important to you? Its what I want to
talk about. And when these friends talk to me about the important things
in their life, I understand (usually) where they are coming from.

But my philosophy and morality are the two most important things in my life. 
They are what I think about when I lie in bed at night. They are the things
that are my essence, make me the person that I am. And no one gets it.
That sucks, plain and simple. After a few years, you get tired of it, and
either change your views, or change your social habits. My views are more
important than being friends with someone.

>Perhaps you have condensed something here essential to my understanding of
>the situation.  From what I gather of what you wrote it sounds like you
>don't understand that in most societies, meaningless small talk is
>expected as a form of courtesy.  It doesn't matter about what, or how
>sincere you are about developing a relationship.  That is the way of
>society as I have experienced it, and read about it from "Miss
>Manners".  You are of course free to reject that, but with that
>rejection you can likely expect the kind of reaction you got.  It has
>nothing to do with right/wrong, and everything to do with understanding
>your society.  There will always be people who won't like you and will
>be rude or mean to you for reasons you cannot fathom, no matter what
>you do.  Informed of the likely consequences of your actions, choose
>what you want to do.

I understand that meaningless small talk is expected. I also would
like to think that people understand that I am a reserved, shy, private,
quiet person. And when these people get angry with me and proceed to bitch at
me for three hours about what I am doing and why it is wrong and what I should
do and `at least show some common courtesy' then I see it as people who I have
nothing against, like actually, but who don't know anything about me even though
they think they do. Ok, maybe they did what they were trying to. I got
put on the defensive and argued my views and actually talked to these people.
But for what? For me to open up my soul and get it stepped on yet again.

But I don't expect anything different, I knew it would happen.

>+is there, for one or both of us. But I actively stay away from interacting
>+on any deep level with people now. Is it fear of pain? Or simply the desire
>+to not feel the inevitable pain of opening up. I don't know.
>
>I dispute your claim on inevitability, but I feel it is not something you
>want to hear.

No, it is inevitable to feel pain when opening up. You will become closer
to the person, and it is the people that you are close to that hurt you the worst.
Whether it is intentional or not, any relationship will eventually end, and it
will be painful.

>There is always societal pressure to conform.  As for your last statement,
>it is not a matter of right and wrong.  It is a matter of being true to
>yourself.  Repressing feelings, or worse may provide relief or respite,
>but that is not a long-term solution in accord with your own best
>interest.  You said above that you "stay away" from really relating to
>other people, to avoid the pain.  If you had no desire to relate to other
>people, you wouldn't need to "stay away" it would be a natural thing.
>Humans are a balance between being an individual, and being a social
>creature.  Everyone's balance point is different.  The point is not set is
>stone.  It is a very rare person who is true to themselves when at either
>extreme.  As I said to Glenn, you have to find your own answers.
>
>Best of luck,
>
>-Doug

I am not sure exactly what you were trying to do with this letter. I believe
that you are sincerely trying to help me to `deal with my problem'. But I 
don't see myself as having any problems that I need to fix. I want to be
emotionally detached from society. My friends do not want me to be detached.
This is where the problem lies, my friends expectations of what I should do.
If they would let me be myself, instead of imposing these thisngs on me,
then I would be fine. But the things they expect of me, these `social commodities'
that I am lacking, make me appear to be some mutant or something. No I don't 
fit the norm, but the last thing I need is people telling me what I should do.
(I am not speaking about you here, but my `real-life' acquaintances.)

My personality is baseed on my beliefs. To change my personality requires
a change of beliefs, either on my part, or societies in general.

Answer me this: If you could not relate on a deep level to ANYONE you knew,
how would you react? I think that seclusion is natural.

Orion.

Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy