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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:03:48 -0600
From:         CD-MD-RD! <TBEAUDOIN@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      first amendment
Comments: To: history@psuvm.bitnet

        Denis, if we assume that the understanding of what it is to
establish religion has "evolved" over the (2) centuries, would that not
be consistent with my original assertion that the modern understanding
of separation of church and state is not (technically) consitutionally
set out but instead the result of the interpretation of courts over
time? Perhaps i wasn't quite that clear. Or perhaps you still disagree with
that assertion.

Thomas Beaudoin
Univ. of MO
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:49:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Dewey! Dewey! Dewey!/Is the Hero of the Day/& the Maine has
              Been

As McKinley and the US wrestled/debated the question of what
to do with the Philippines, Rudyard Kipling called upon them
to accept the moral imperative and do their duty, in the
well-known poem, "The White Man's Burden" (1899). We rose
to the occasion.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:13:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:44:16 GMT Robert E George
<regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> said:

> I'm not an historian, hence somewhat out-of-place here,

On the contrary, you are an historian by virtue of being in
the list! and you have as much right to be here as anyone else!

Robert E. George then goes on to distinguish among
(1) Establishment of a church, which for him means only that a
> particular church ... has a special legal position in a particular
> country....
(2) Separation of church and state, which means > that the government
> should not interact in any way with a particular church ..., and
(3) Uniting church and state, which means > making a single *unit* of
> church and state -- i.e., fusing the two into a theocracy.

The establishment clause has to be understood in the context of
the C18 Establishments in both the UK and BNA. When people
talked about the union of church and state, they meant the
Establishment; to separate church and state was to disestablish.
Thus, at the Revolution, the Church of England was disestablished
in Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina.

Over the years, the understanding of what it is to establish
religion has evolved. During the early C19, most public schools
had required reading of the Bible, in the Authorised (King James)
Version, and had required prayers of a Protestant nature.
Authorities rejected Roman Catholic arguments that this in fact
established Protestantism. One of the reasons that the Roman
Catholics went on to form their own parochial school system was
because their children could not avoid Protestant teaching
in the public schools. Now, we interpret the promotion of a
faith to be as much a violation of the 1st Amendment as the creation of
a state church.  (At least, I hope we do!) We would consider the
teaching of Protestantism, or even of Christianity, in the schools, or
the promotion of Protestantism, or Roman Catholicism, or Christianity,
by a governmental entity to be in violation of the establishment clause.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:23:00 CST
From:         RICHARD JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

    While it is true a few Americans owned property in Cuba, they
    were not especially important in the debate.  One Congressmen
    suggested--nastily--that Senator Proctor of vermont (who owned
    some marble quarries) was a war hawk because war would be good
    for his gravestone business.
    --Bosnia is especially revealing becaue humanitarian impulses
    are pushing Americans (including Clinton) toward intervention,
    which the military (esp Powell) strongly opposes.  Who knows,
    maybe there are American business interests there, but so what?
    (The prime minister of Serbia, amazingly enough, is an American
    businessman, Panic.)
    Richard Jensen
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:22:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      First Amendment

It has been pointed out that the phrase "separation of church
and state" does not appear in the US Constitution. This is, of
course, correct. The text is "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion." Now, to "establish"
a church is to make it the state church. To "disestablish" an
established church is to separate church and state. As an
historian of Britain, who teaches debates over church-state
relations in the C19, with special reference to the Liberation
(used to be called Anti-State-Church) Society, the disestablish-
ment of the Church of Ireland, and the disestablishment of
the Church of England in Wales, it seems pretty straight-
forward, from both a political and a legal view, that
establishment unites and disestablishment separates.

Can we hear from some French and Mexican historians on
the topic of religious establishments and separation
of church and state, please?

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:42:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

On Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:21:02 CST Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU> said:
>         My understanding is that religious services can be held
> in schools in the U.S. after hours.

Yes -- student groups, including religious groups, can use schools
for their meetings.
In Oconee County (scene of the film _Deliverance_), there is a
little brouhaha over this. A religious club exists at a local
high school, and uses school property to meet. However,
administrators permit the club to meet during school hours,
so that students won't miss their schoolbus rides in order to
attend the club; and these administrators also have made a point
of attending the club meetings themselves. Some parents are
complaining that these elements amount to school endorsement
of the club.
So one can see that it is difficult to delineate where the role
of the state should end.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:38:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

Well, having been trained at Michigan, I am not
going to rush to the defense of the Wisconsin
School. Much of what they have to say about
US diplomacy, however, makes sense to me.

Richard Jensen then said:

>     --I strongly disagree with Denis that the historian's political
>     views are "irrelevant so long as one's history is good"
>     . . . because it leads to a very common misunderstanding . . .
>     that if a reputable historian says something it must be "true."
>     The vast majority of laymen and students do not realize how much
>     political and philosophical positions color the work of
>     reputable historians.

Of course one's world view colors one's work, to some
extent. I derive much of my world view from the pages
of the _Nation_. However, my work will be judged by
how I use the evidence. The other side of the coin
is that I don't especially care about the political
and philosophical positions of other historians,
unless those positions get in the way of how they
use the evidence. In my own field, for instance,
I read with profit the work of Gertrude Himmelfarb.
I may deplore her political world view, but her
world view does not keep her from being a good
historian.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:13:00 EST
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

> How is allowing students to pray in school establishing religion?

I don't imagine that it is. That is why students, or anyone
else, for that matter, can pray in US schools now.
For the school to prescribe a form of prayer, or to
set aside time in the school day to be devoted to
prayer, would, I suppose, be establishing religion.

When I was in 6th grade (1956-57), we began the school
day by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and the
Lord's Prayer. Because I was the only child in this
grade at public school who was not Roman Catholic, I
was told that I must pray the Lord's Prayer in the
Roman Catholic version, since otherwise, I was the
only voice droning on "For thine is the Kingdom, and
the Power, and the Glory, for ever and ever. Amen."
That qualifies as establishing religion, because
the state was prescribing the form of prayer, and
compelling conformity to that form of prayer.

That experience helps to explain why I am not
keen on the establishment of religion.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
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Original_cc:  HFELDSTE
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:20:00 EDT
From:         Herb Feldstein <HFELDSTE@SNYESCVA.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: more interesting discussion of Somalia intervention

Why do we have to get involved politically in Somalia.  Isn't it enough that we
get food to the starving people. Let the UN take care of helping the Somalies
form a stable government. The cold war is over. We do not have to worry if that
government is pro U.S. or not
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:57:32 PST
From:         Laurie Abbott <BL.LXA@RLG.BITNET>
Subject:      Arab views of the Crusades

>From:         Carty Ellis <CELLIS@BROCKVMA.BITNET>
>Subject:      Islamic (Arab) resources

Carty, there are bazillions of Arab accounts of the Crusades, and a few
of them have even been translated.  The most famous is the account by
Ibn al-Qalanisi (d. 1160), who wrote "The Damascus Chronicle of the
Crusades" (London, Luzac) and "The History of Damascus" (he was living
there during the Crusades, so his work reflects that).

There's a nineteenth century Turkish work that has been translated
into French, if you can handle that: Joseph Michaud, tr. of "Histoire
des Croisades" ("Emr 'al-acib fi tarih-i ehl is-salib").  That's now in
its 4th edition.

Joshua Prawer has also translated a modern Arab work published in Cairo
in 1981, "World of the Crusaders" ('Alam al-salibiyin al-tabah.)

There is also Amin Maalouf's work, "Croisades vues par les Arabes,"
which is available in English ("The Crusades Through Arab Eyes")
(London: Al Saqi Books, 1984).

There's another report of the Crusades by a guy named Usama ibn
Munqidh (1095-1188), which has been translated into German
("Memoiren eins syrischen Emirs aus der Zeit der Kreuzzuge")
and in part into English in an anthology called "The Islamic
World," edited by William H. McNeill and Marilyn Waldman.

There are also two pretty new scholarly works out on the subject
of the Crusades, and you might want to take a look at them (even
if they're not what you want, you may be able to get some other
references from the bibliography): Carole Hillenbrand, "A
Muslim Principality in Crusader Times" (Leiden 1990) and
Christopher Marshall ("Warfare and the Latin East, 1192-1291,"
published by Cambridge U Press 1992).  I have actually glanced
through the Marshall, and it's a little pompous and still
rather heavily slanted, but it may be useful.



To:  HISTORY@RUTVM1
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:01:00 CST
From:         RICHARD JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War

    Denis Paz suggests that historians in fact take a very broad
    view of the past, especially the causes of the 1898 war. He is
    incorrect. Since the days of Walter Millis (1931) a standard
    leftist view of the war, which is widely accepted by textbooks,
    airbrushes humanitarianism away and assumes instead that
    economic "interest" causes diplomatic/political action.  This is
    known as the "Wisconsin School." (after professors there
    including Fred Harrington, William Appleman Williams, Thomas
    McCormick, & numerous graduate students who worked there, like
    Walter LaFeber).
    citations:
    Walter Millis, The Martial Spirit (1931) 144
    "But one may question whether the American people by this time
    [1898] were in fact interested in either peace or in humanity."

    in a major textbook [Walter LaFeber, The American Age (1989)]
    never mentions any humanitarian motives. On p 185 LaFeber notes
    that Hearst etc were pushing for war but adds, "The publishers
    were not unselfish." LaFeber explains public opinion by saying
    "19th century Americans had little respect for Spain." [185]
    his final analysis of causation is on p. 190 [my numbering]
    "The president did not want war.  But he did want results that
    only war could bring:
    1. protecting property in Cuba,
    2. stopping the revolution before it turned sharply to the left,
    3. restoring confidence in the U.S. business community,
    4. insulating his Republican party from Democratic charges of
       cowardice in safeguarding U.S. interests, and
    5. giving himself a free hand to deal with the growing Asian crisis
       [regarding US trade to China].
       For these reasons McKinley took the country into war in April
       1898."
       --note the emphasis on property, capitalism, and fear of leftist
       revolutions.

       Richard Jensen, U of Illinois. campbelld@apsu.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:08:43 +0100
From:         Walter Felscher <iikfe01@MAILSERV.ZDV.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Islamic (Arab) resources
Comments: To: HISTORY@ibm.gwdg.de

It might be useful to look at

Francesco Gabrieli: Die Kreuzzuege aus arabischer Sicht
                    Artemis Verlag, Zuerich
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:52:41 EST
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GITVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War
              14 Dec 1992 10:55:00 PST from <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:55:00 PST <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU> said:
>I've been eavesdropping, so may be out of the loop (heh, heh), but
>couldn't resist.  Does "annexation" include makinbg war and then
>by virture of prevailing forcing the losers to "sell" territory?
>If so, that would seem to answer the questions about annexation
>prior to Span/Am War.
>
We didn't force the sale of Florida, Louisiana, Alaska.  But I suppose that
the "Baton Rouge Revolt" whatever that was, does demonstrate us to be
an evil empire.

Lenny
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:44:00 CDT
From:         Erwin Welsch <EWELSCH@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Situationists
Comments: To: history@psuvm.bitnet

There is a set of documents on origin of the movement:

Documents relatifs a la fondation de l'Internationale situationniste
par Gerard Berreby.  Paris, 1985.  651 pages

A couple of relatively brief histories:

Jean-Francois Martos, Histoire de l'Internationale situationniste.
Paris, 1989.  281 pages

Jean-Jacques Raspaud, l'Internationale situationniste: chronologie,
bibliographie ...  Paris, 1972.  168 pages

The citation for the art exhibit mentioned elsewhere is:

On the passage of a few people through a rather brief moment in
time: the Situationist International, 1957-1972 edited by Elizabeth
Sussman.  Boston, 1989.  (From the exhibit at the Popmpidou Center
in Paris)

Documents from the major journal, Situationniste Internationale,
translated into English:

Situationist Anthology ... Edited by Ken Knabb.  Berkeley, 1981.

Specifically on the student unrest in 1968:

De la misere en milieu etudiant consideree sous ses aspects economique ...
par des membres de l'Internationale situationniste ...  Paris, 1976.

The Memorial Library also has older titles on the movement.  Please
let me know if I can be of assistance.
Erwin K. Welsch
West European History Librarian
Memorial Library 278G
University of Wisconsin-Madison
728 State Street
Madison, WI 53706
EWelsch@WISCMACC.Bitnet
EWelsch@vms.macc.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: vancleef@netcom.com (Henry van Cleef)
Subject: Re: Ancient egypt
Organization: Netcom--posted from Andover, Mass.
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 03:39:30 GMT

In article <HISTORY%92121101193736@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Herb Feldstein <HFELDSTE@SNYESCVA.BITNET> writes:
>Hi Steve, Tried to find Egyptian Magic by Wallis Budge without success.
>Was able to locate A book called  " The Legacy of Egypt" by J. R. Harris.
>It has been very helpful. I have also been using A History of Egypt by
>James Henry Breasted. Great Book.

Breasted was considered the leading Egyptologist for a good many years,
and he is good reading, although he may be out-of date on some points.
He wrote several books, including some translations and analyses of
things like the "Book of the Dead."  
-- 
Hank van Cleef  vancleef@netcom.com vancleef@tmn.com  Andover, Mass.
Unix systems consultant---kernel, device drivers, networking, X11
SysV, BSD, Sun, Ultrix, AIX, SCO. Porting a specialty. 
	     The Union Institute  History of Science
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:55:54 EST
From:         Andrew Rowden x2252 <arowden@AUSTIN.ONU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Truth in History
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
              "DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU" at Dec 17, 92 9:42 am

Don Mabry has made a valid point.  How does one know what was important
and how one viewed the current events of their time.  Perhaps a historian
could try to see the "current events" of the past with the same ideas and
impressions that those who were there had.  Of course, you would not be
able to pin-point these impressions or feelings exactly but you might be
able to understand better why people thought the way they did by looking
through the weather of the period.

Andrew Rowden
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:15:39 EST
From:         Andrew Rowden x2252 <arowden@AUSTIN.ONU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Mexican War
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
              92 7:55 am

Was California officially recognized as an independent republic?

If so, by who.

Andrew Rowden
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:49:00 CST
From:         RICHARD JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: McKinley's methodology in 1899 (keeping Philippines)

    Steve Fox point out that:
    >If  someone  prays, and then  "it comes to him," I  say
    >that's  as  close to  hearing  from God as one  can  get.
    >History  isn't  a court  of law; we get  some  discretion,
    >don't  we?   What's the  corroboration here?  And  if  you
    >told, would anyone believe you?
    A little voice inside me whispers that Steve has the better
    of the argument.
    OK--McKinley did hear from his (Methodist) God.
    ==Richard Jensen
From: djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Don Mabry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: The Spanish/American War
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:21:02 GMT
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Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu


        I agree with Paz on what can be taught and figured we both
understood the issue. My intent was to clarify matters.
        My understanding is that religious services can be held
in schools in the U.S. after hours.
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:11:41 EST
From:         Brett Charbeneau <72410.3034@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Franklin Discussion list?

                 Please pardon the interruption!

     I am trying to subscribe to the Benjamin Franklin Scholars
list at Columbia (I believe) from CompuServe and am having
troubles.  The address in the listserve list is
"FRANKLIN@NCSUVM".
     I have tried sending to customary "subscribe franklin
<name>" message to "listserv@ncsuvm.bitnet" and
"listserv@ncsuvm.edu" without success.  I even tried to post this
message at "franklin@ncsuvm.bitnet", all have come back as
undeliverable - no such recipient.  Can someone please tell me
what I am doing wrong?  Or where I can get the correct address?
All kind respondents please contact me directly so as not to
clutter up the list. Thanks much!


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Distribution:
  >internet history@irlearn.bitnet
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:24:15 -0500
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      RE:H-Net guide to lists; additions, comments, drops??
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Dec 15, 92 9:43 pm

While some  of the lists I know and some of them are indeed v. good, I
was surprised not to see a modern European history list. Is there one?
Where does it live and how busy is it? (While a busy list is often
indication of a lively one, there is only so much time in the day, so
one has to know ahead of time.)
AK
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:14:53 CST
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Spanish/American War
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

        Although I agree wit most what Denis Paz says about the evolution
of the meaning of church and state in the U.S., I believe he errs when
he says that "we would consider the teaching of Protestantim, or Roman
Catholicism, or Christianity, by a governmental entity to be a violation
of the establishment clause."
        Government [public] schools can teach religion. For example,
schools can offer courses in the history of any religion. What cannot
occur is forcing students to take such courses or using the power of
the government to make people listen to a particular religious belief.

Don Mabry
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:26:00 EST
From:         Johannah English <JENGLISH@GMUVAX.BITNET>

set history nomail
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