From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Effectiveness, swords, etc.
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:51:14 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <43333@as0c.sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>quoting someone else:
>>True.  In fact, at my old fencing club we pitted a sabre against an epee
>>(using epee targets, ie. a touch *anywhere* scored).  The sabre and epee
>>fencers were always arguing which was the most effective weapon--the
>>point weapon or the edge weapon.  We found that the epee won 75% of the
>>time.  Typically, as soon as the sabreist took his point off target to
>>deliver a cut, the epeeist could simply thrust into the sabreist's
>>attacking arm.  If the epee  thrust missed, then the sabreist often
>>scored.  Even then, the epee blade was plenty strong enough to parry
>>sabre cuts.

This is, of course, not what the saber was  originally designed for.
Just for grins, let's put them both on horses in the midst of a crowded
battlefield and see what happens...

Never try to out-box a boxer or out-wrestle a wrestler.

>There is a movie called "Challenge of the Ninja," ...yes, it is only a movie,
>but if you want an explication of the Chinese stylists' prejudice about sword
>fighting, it is a good reference because it cites all the reasons why Japanese
>sword fighting is inferior (in their opinions).  

One-on-one, you are probably right. As Smith er,uh,points out, the point is
superior for keeping *AN* opponent at bay. Sabers and katana are battlefield
weapons by design, intended for use in "one against many" situations where
one needs to render each opponent *completely* incapacitated as quickly
as possible. Under such circumstances, a weapon which is good at *removing*
limbs is preferable to one which merely *punctures* them. Besides, who
*ever* said that kenjutsu didn't use the point???? Take a *good* look at
iaido kata...

>My own opinion is that as a fighting tool Japanese swords are cumbersome, and
>that any practitioner, no matter how skilled, would quickly fall victim to the
>(above mentioned) "epee effect" which is all about how the Chinese styles use
>swords--quick stabs to vital arteries and organs.  

Really...what about saber techniques? Chinese sabers look like considerably
worse  thrusting weapons than katana  to me...

>It's like a .44 magnum,

Naah...bullets are primarily thrusting weapons ;-) I tried to cut a steak
with one once and it didn't work worth a damn...;-) ;-)

>it's only effective if you get it out of the holster in time--basically no
>way, irrespective of my regard for their extreme beauty.

Hmmm...all swords  suffer from the "get it out of the holster" problem...
I daresay a good  iai or kenjutsu practitioner can draw-and-cut  (one motion)
faster than *anyone* can draw, orient the point, and thrust (3 motions).

Heh heh heh...

Peter, this is Al. Al, this is Peter. ;-)

>But then I guess this is just another eternal jingoistic argument.

Sheesh, Peter...you strike me (no pun intended) as someone who had a
*REALLY* bad training experience in a Japanese art. If that's the case,
I'm truly sorry - but I think your generalizations are unwarranted. For
what it's worth, I had a truly horrible experience with an absolutely
incompetent TCC instructor about 22 years ago...that didn't manage to
engender any disrespect for the art. It also didn't make me feel entitled
to make blanket statements belittling the training methods, history, or
philosophy of arts I do not train in and do not understand. I'm *glad*
you like TCC - nobody should train in an art that he despises. I don't
begrudge you that, but I *do* think a lot of your comments about 
Japanese/Okinawan arts are uncalled for.

Steve