From: talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM ((dave talaga x2752))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Free Will and Predestination
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:21:47 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
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>  [stuff deleted]  Your use of the word _comfortable_ seems a bit ironic
> since, [... previous stuff deleted]  Perhaps you should characterize us as
>  the 'uncomfortable majority.' :)

Whoo boy!  Mike, careful of the context you find a word in, eg "comfortable," or
 the Christia CONtextual critics will get you.  But, now that you mention it,
 predestination is indeed comforting.

>  I have to agree that I probably miswrote when I typed "God and the
>  Trinity personalities" - If that is the cause of your consternation
>  please forgive this poor brother for typing/thinking too fast.

Think nothing of it.  In fact, I've noticed a similar trait in alot of us
 predestination types:  we tend to be rather sensitive when it comes to such
 things as Father fragments, upgraded host vehicles, planned genetic uplifting
 (I am quite serious here), etc.  However, we are, for the most part, thick
 skinned -- so don't worry, we recover fast.

>  I think most scholars attribute the NT to mortal writers; I feel
>  certain that if God and/or Jesus had directly dictated the writing of
>  this work there would be little doubt.  Your assumption that Paul said
>  nothing that Jesus didn't say is part of the problem; you are laying
>  odds on a mortal about issues that concern your recognition of eternal
>  spiritual values.  I simply cannot do that.

I, or we, simply must.  Besides, Paul himself claimed that he received his
 gospel directly from Christ; although I do agree with you that the mortal I lay
 my odds on is not Paul.



>  How can you say that we are inherently evil? - do you not believe that we
>  are made in His image?  Natural urges can be mastered by the mind.

Experience.  - Yes, like I believe statues are made in the image of man.  Where
 man's physical image is still a close approximation to the intended image, the
 inner man, the part that counts, has become reprobate, useless, no longer a
 fitting image of what it was intended to be.  Therefore, the whole thing is
 really "lifeless," like a statue.

Natural urges in the sin/slave state can be surpressed, even controlled to a
 point ("You are the salt of the earth..."), but never mastered (Jer. 17:10).


>  Please answer:
>  What do you have to give to God if it is not the submission of your
>  sovereign will? (What are you offering to God if not this most sublime
>  attribute of man?) How can you give Him anything if you have no
>  part in the decisions in your life.  And lastly, what shampoo is it
>  that God chooses for you?

Assuming I can differentiate twixt good and evil (slave/righteousness state vs
 slave/sin state), then I can offer myself as a sacrifice to God.  Now, lest you
 construe this as an exercise of "soverign free will," let me hasten to add that
 it is still an either/or decision.  If I am not "sacrificing" my life to Him,
 then I am returning to a lifestyle of bondage leading to death.  That is not to
 say that God has lost me since I chose not to serve Him, but that I, in
 ignorance or disobedience, went back to my former habits, namely, sin.  IMO,
 this proves my total reliance on Him; besides, once you commit to giving
 yourself as a sacrifice, what use is free will, sovereign of otherwise.

And lastly, whatever one my wife tells me to use (God works through her too).

>
>  Your confusion, to sum, lies IMO in the incomplete understanding of
>  the following concepts:
>          1. the Father fragment indwelling each mortal and the plan
>               this entity carries
>          2. the ascension plan for mortals on the evolutionary realms
>               after this initial life
>          3. the divine link of creature and Creator/ the true religious
>               experience
>          4. acceptance of mortal literature as 'Divine Word'
>          5. His request that we submit our will to His
>          6. the dual nature of man: flesh and spirit.
>
>     (I'll stop here.)           in brotherhood,  Michael Million
>
Insomuch as I lack complete understanding, I heartily concur; but my ignorance
 is in regards to the sublime notion that the Son of God was willing to become
 sin on behalf of those his Father foreknew (just playing it safe).

Dave Talaga