From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 11:30:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.190142.8687@cas.org>, jac54@cas.org () writes:
|> In article <1992Sep11.165636.20409@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU writes:
|> >In article <NICKH.92Sep11112716@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> >>In article <1992Sep10.134212.19357@cs.ruu.nl> rkunenbo@cs.ruu.nl (Ronald Kunenborg) writes:
|> >>
|> >>[lots of stuff about Burt, Lysenko, Eysenck, etc. etc.]
|> >>
|> >>   `social deviants' (i.e. the poor).  Even now, in Great-Brittain,
|> >>   Burts research is being used as an excuse to exclude 11-year olds
|> >>   from any further education.
|> >>
|> >>News to me, squire. All Britons get education to the age of 16. What
|> >>on Earth are you talking about?
|> >
|> >Presumably Ronald means the use of "IQ-based" tests in the "11 Plus" exam, |> >or
|> >whatever it's called these days. It used to be the case that you flunked 
|> >that, you were shipped off to a "secondary modern," and you were *history*
|> > with respect to higher (post 16-years-old) education.
|> 
|> 	What education system were you in?

Good question, presumably not the one in England and Wales - although even that
is entirely peacemeal.  In some LEA areas you still have secondary modern and
grammar schools and note  *there* is absolutely no restriction of access to
pupils who 'flunked' the 11 plus exam to further education.  Further education
in the form of 'A' levels is obtained by passing GCSE exams.  Every child has
access to other forms of further education as well.  You can also take 'A'
levels at your own expense at evening classes.

'A' levels can lead to a degree course.  You can also gain admission to a
degree course after some time at work, or through alternative examinations.
My girlfriend is doing a degree in European Business at the Uni. of Glamorgan
after having taken 'O' levels and about 6 years working, including in Europe.
She is doing considerably better than some of the direct 'A' level entrants.
Anther friend is doing an M.Sc. at the University of Kent after an HND, last I
heard she was top of the class.


In my LEA the 11 plus is not used to decide who goes to Grammar and who goes
to the secondary schools.  In fact the decision process is quite strange.  All
children sit the 11 plus - this is used to decide how many places each school
will get out of a free pool, they always get alloted some places.  Before the
11 plus is sat the teachers draw up a list of the pupils to be considered.  A
good 11 plus performance won't get you onto that list - there are a lot of other
factors involved.  A bad 11 plus result might get you bumped off however.


It occurs to me that the average maleducated American s.c.b. poster knows
'dick-all' about the English & Welsh education system.


As a side note I shared a house with someone who's daughter had 'flunked' the
German 11-plus exam - she said that her chance of attending a University was
about zero, her best hope was a Fachhochschule (like an English Technical
University).  An FHS degree would put her onto a lower pay band in most German
companies - she wasn't too interested in that an intended going to.... the UK! 

David.
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