From: mikhe@flab.fujitsu.co.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  NeXT's, Amiga's, PC's, MAC'S, (was Re: Question #2 "Are Macintosh Users Really Happy?")
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:59:21 GMT

In article <dillon.0l98@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US  
(Matthew Dillon) writes:
>    Take a look in computer shopper.  External V.32bis+fax modems can be
>    had for the order of $200 these days.  Fax-only externals are in the
>    $100 range.

Sure, but why can't they be used on other platforms too? That was the original  
question, and the original answer was that not only the PC has cheep modems. If  
you want your modem to be able to do just one thing then sure go for the cheep  
one. I prefer a little more flexibility...

>>What are you talking about? The reason I got a NeXT in the first place was so
>>that I could get the software that I needed, and mostly for free. There are
>>as you are no doubt aware of, thousands of ftp site around the globe that
>>provide software for free. 
..
>    I've been combing Archie and various ftp sites for a while, perhaps you
>    should do the same....  I'm flattered by the rest of the paragraph
>    though!

What? Are you just talking about NeXT specific Apps? Apps with a NeXTSTEP  
frontend? I'm talking about every app that will run under BSD/Mach. I don't  
need Archie to fill my list of shells, languages, newsreaders, mailers,  
editors, etc. etc. It goes on forever. Agreed, dedicated original NeXTSTEP Apps  
are currently scarce, but this will improve over time as more and more people  
learn how to work it. But the point is that NeXT does not live and die with  
dedicated NS Apps alone, anything you can do under UNIX you can do on a NeXT.

>>Yes, but in the mean time how many developers were scared off by the
>>non-profitability of the software and the machine. If you are a developer you
>>...
>
>    It's not an exclusive deal.  Letting in the programming buffs does not
>    let out the serious developers.  It might force serious developers to
>    develop meaningful stuff (i.e. better then the freeware stuff), but if
>    that is undesireable then someone's got skewed thinking.

I agree totally, the fact of the matter is that in order for a machine to  
survive there has to be an incentive for people to get involved professionally  
with it. I'm not saying that anybody should be shut out, I'm saying let  
everybody in, let programming buffs do their stuff and let them contribute the  
best they can, but work with the serious developers on a professional level so  
that the customers who require professional Apps get the service and stability  
they are willing to pay for. All the free Apps are perks. That is the way a  
machine will survive IMHO.

>>The developers-at-heart who eventually graduate will only, when they do get
>>employed, really contribute to the success of a machine, since prior to that
>>there will be no guarantee that the software they've written for free will
>>ever get supported, and is therefore useless in the long run. How can a
>>company base its decisions and major income on what a bunch of college kids 
>>do for fun? Lets face it corporations exist to make money. They're not 
>>charitable organizations that build cool stuff because they want to grace 
>>everybody with something cool.
>
>    True enough, and the IBM-PC/compatible arena is the best example of
>    what can happen.  Would you like to program PC's ?  Windows 3.1 ?
>    Window NT?	I'll tell you, we could all pack up with our multitasking
>    expertise and take the PC arena by storm, make a lot of money, and
>    retire.

Now you're getting nasty. ;^) You now the answer is: of course not. I'd rather  
die than prostitue myself with a PC. Let's not forget the sense of  
accomplishment for a job well done, as well as the intuition that these  
machines will die within the next ten years and be sorely lacking, and that we,  
all along, were on the right track and had forsight to shy away from greed and  
shortterm gain to develop computers that will benefit all mankind. Sheesh,  
enough crusading... ;^)

>    purchased are no longer in the control of competant programmers.  What
>    happened?  Real simple... some programmers program for money, others
>    for fun, but tucked in there is a class of professional programmers who
>    do it for both and, simply put, are inclined to work on the machine of
>    their choice regardless of their manager's desire.
>
>    Seems to me that many NeXT programmers fit into that category or they'd
>    all be off programming for the multi billion dollar Windows market.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with combining work and pleasure. But I do feel  
that NeXT is onto something here, and that the overinflated PC balloon is going  
to burst, so that there might be enough money in the market for me to live  
comfortably doing what I like to do...

>    There are many side effects to a large grass roots programming
>    community the least of which is the fact that it really does force the
>    commercial side of the coin to produce more professional products.

True.

[ Deep Thoughts deleted ]

>    Perhaps I should amend my opinion to something more on the order that I
>    believe a very serious imbalance exists in the NeXT community which
>    most people already esconed are blind to, and that this imbalance leads
>    to instability for nearly everyone associated with the machine (not
>    just companies trying to stay alive).

I'm glad you came around, I thought I'd lost you there for minute... B^) I  
would have to disagree with you on this one though, I believe that NeXT has a  
healthy amount of professional companies developing software for the platform  
and with their current growth rate I think everything is pretty much on track.  
NeXT moves faster than we expect however, and I see new deals with good  
organizations popping up every week.

On the programmer buff side I would have to say that NeXTSTEP is only now  
starting to become appealing, the price of the machines are falling and the  
implementation of the OS maturing. Judging the growth rate of this class of   
people I agree that at this point it is somewhat slow, but when the supertanker  
has turned there will be no stopping. A "market" such as GUI programming has  
lots of impetus, it is going to take time to swing that around. Look at  
yourself, how long have you not clung to the Amiga? I'm not worried by this  
however; look at the number of questions in csn.programmer, there is certainly  
no lack of interest.

So what are you waiting for? Get busy and give us something cool Matt, it's  
time to move on. B^)

>>>				    -Matt
>>		-Mike
>				    -Matt
		-Mike
--
Mike Henry                             mikhe@flab.fujitsu.co.jp        ///
Fujitsu Nakahara House West 8 #524     mikhe@cs.uoregon.edu           ///
6-7-1 Shimokodanaka, Nakahara          mikhe@ida.liu.se           \\\///
Kawasaki 221, JAPAN                                                \XX/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy