HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: That Elvis thing
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 06:45:30 GMT

For anyone concerned that George could actually get reelected (or
Quayle in '94.  The rest of the country won't have another presidental
election until '96, but Quayle intends to run in '94), three items:

1. The paper reported a poll showing Bush's post-convention 'bounce'
   has already disappeared.  This may be a new record!

2. NBC news, at least, kept reporting conjecture that Bush is FINALLY
   standing up to Saddan Hussein for political reasons.  Unfortunately,
   they did not comment (too much) on the fact that many of us are
   wondering why "Mr. I-know-everything-about-foreign-policy" took
   so long to do so.  (NBC aired a few 'mea culpa's' from the military,
   but that explains why they agreed to stop the ground action after
   100 hours, not why Bush sat on his ass when Hussein clobbered
   the Kurds and Shi'ites.  At least the Kurds have had U.N. protection
   for a while -- and set up their own provisional government).

3. Finally, the paper reported that the Bush campaign has hired 
   ELVIS IMPERSONATORS to attack Clinton.

The last item is very telling.... If the Republicans think the only
credible person they can find to challenge Clinton is a _clown_,
they recognize they've basically lost.  (_No_ campaign manager will
have failed to recognize that many people will view their use of 
Elvis impersonators in the way I just described).

Does this mean pagans can breath freely?  Not really.  It's pretty
clear that the Republicans are on the ropes, but the conservative
branch is already planning it's comeback in '94.  Sorry, '96.  

The next four years won't be as bad as they would have been under
Bush II (sounds like a B-grade horror movie), but they won't be a
cakewalk either.


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <was: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 05:50:36 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

To the question of Masons and Templers:

There has been much scholarship addressed to the question of whether Freemasons
have a common past with the Knights Templar. Among the excellent books on the
subject, I reccommend "Born in Blood" and "The Temple and the Lodge." Both
address the question of the origins of Freemasonry. There is a lot of
contreversy about whether or not the Craft came from the guilds of the Middle
Ages, or were an outgrowth of other esoteric traditions. The question devides
many Masons, and there is no "right" answer. Myself, I doubt that the Guilds
were the source.  certainly, serious Masonic scholars must concede that there
was some source prior to 1717, and the founding of the Grand Lodge of England,
if only because many of the british lodges cite origins that pre-date this
event.




' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours!  
 
Hawk
 
Circle of Ashtoreth, 
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <flame risk HIGH>
Date: 3 Sep 92 05:05:34 GMT

>ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
>If there's any Knights of the Teutonic Order out there, be
>warned, your kind and my kind have a blood feud.

If you are referring to the original group that brought the 
*Good Book* to the "godless heathens", to the group that maimed, raped,
and killed several peoples East of present-day Germany, and 
devastated their cultures and folk religions, then I'm on your side.

Please do not fall into the trap of Guilt by Association (tm), though.

Where did the Teutons get their name? 
From H.R. Ellis Davidson's book, *Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe*:

<<<pp.5-6>>>
The Germans first came into prominence in Europe in the first century AD, 
although the term "Germani" was in use about a hundred years earlier
and appears originally to have been a Celtic tribal name. Tacitus in
*Germania* claimed that it was the name of one tribe which gradually
came into general use, and it was generally held to be linked with the
Latin "germanus" (brother). Because of the ambiguity of this term
`Germanic', many English scholars have preferred to use `Teutonic' for
this group of peoples. The adjective "Teutonicus" was a latinised form
of OE "Theodisc" from "Theod" (people/nation), a term applied by the
Goths to themselves and their language; the earlier form *teuta may
originally have had the meaning `power' or `strength'. What the Romans
knew as Germania was the area between the Rhine and the Danube,
extending possibly as far as the Vistula, and including in the north
Denmark and the southern parts of Norway and Sweden. As was the case
with the Celts, people living in this wide and sparsely populated area
were unlikely to have thought of themselves as Germans; it was the
collective name used by the Romans for the barbarians beyond the
Rhine. Julius Caesar came into contact with these tribes, and the
Romans paid heavily for their attempts to bring them under control. He
wrote his brilliant account of his campaigns in Gaul in the mid first
century, equating the Germans with the peoples to the east of the
Rhine, while the Celts were to the west of it. This seems to have been
an oversimplification of a complex situation, perhaps due to his
ignorance of the languages spoken by many of the tribes, or to a
desire to justify his military advances for political reasons.
Certainly some of the tribes which he called German are now thought to
have been Celtic-speaking peoples. It seems that there was no
fundamental difference between the two except that of language, and as
Powell pointed out, the many resemblances between them in religious
practices, social organisation and vocabulary may have been derived
from a common ancestral source. But in spite of this, and the fact
that they were in contact with each other for considerable periods,
the difference in language must reflect a distinct  separation between
the two sets of people.
<<<end quote>>>

Be Sprinkled With Blood,
Thorfinn

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If felons commit felony,
then god is an iron.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Leaving the USA
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 20:53:11 EDT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz) writes:

> I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I haven't been following the thread
> 'cause I get so down when people trash each other for having a different
> perspective.  Alas, many of the participants will *choose* to disregard
> the option to be more tolerant of people who, despite making different
> choices, are basically on the same side of the fence.  (I've seen this
> several times in this newsgroup, many times in other newsgroups, and
> frequently in life...)
>
> It's similar to how the issue of different activist styles plays itself
> out in lesbigay culture.  Queer Nation has every right to their
> out-and-confrontational approach, as does the Right to Privacy PAC to
> their behind-the-scenes political maneuvering.  Working for change from
> without and from within the system are equally valid, equally important
> approaches.  Trashing each other only weakens all of us.  We all need each
> other to survive.
>
> Personally I'm a healer, not a fighter.  You and I, Tammy, may sound
> idealistic to those with a different approach.  Fear is what motivates the
> fundies and others in the right wing.  Let's not let it further divide us.
>

hallo gorgeous!

me, i'm a fighter (surprise, surprise!), but i try to avoid horizontal
hostility.  people who are basically on our side but do not adhere to perfect
doctrinaireness (is that a word?) by my standards, are not the problem.  julia
penelope has a great essay on horizontal hostility in her book _call me
lesbian_ that i wouidl make requireed reading for anyone in a political
struggle...

                                       -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 I wish her insight to battle love's blindness            ________
 Strength from the milk of human kindness         Silence \      / Action
 A safe place for all the pieces that scattered      =     \    /    =
 Learn to pretend there's more than love           Death    \  /    Life
                                  that matters               \/
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8730 alt.mythology:1750 alt.magick:4214
From: pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology,alt.magick
Subject: Looking for diagram of a valknut
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:41:19 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town

Could someone tell me what the valknut, a symbol of Odin, looks like?
I am told it is a form of knot, of three triangles intertwined, and
resembles a triskele. Could someone send me a GIF, or a presice description?

Peter
--
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden              "Thou shalt not kill
CS2 lab, UCT, Cape Town               Kill kill kill!"
pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za                    Ministry   
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:36:46 GMT

In article <y2Z4PB4w165w@korova.uucp>
popec@korova.uucp (Mr. Charlie) writes:

>  These people are dead serious.  if Bush loses, and
>he probably will, the republican party will be up for grabs and there
>will be quite a struggle for the soul of the party between old line
>republicans and the Christian Coalitian Forces.  Stay tuned, this will be
>a vicious little squabble.  And even if robertson does not win totally,
>and I don't think he will, he and the Xian far right are here to stay.
>  I am thinking it is about time that every freedom loving person in
>America that does not want to put up with what we saw from the Republican
>Convention, start thinking about how to fight these pests now.
>Time to start pushing back.

It really is happening before our very eyes.  And what is especially
stressful is that many moderate Republicans seem to be willing to follow
along after the extremists in order to preserve their party's power.
Did you see all the reports about the legislative battle in Oregon.
There are good Christian Republicans up there who want to make discrimination
against homosexuals legal.
First is queers, then abortion, prayer, next birth control.  Where will it
end?  Witch burnings?
People who seem to be decent human beings in every other respect can really go
off the deep end with this fundamentalist crap and I'm not really sure there is
 anything we can do to stop it.
Except vote Democratic, but that may only be a temporary measure.

If you've got any ideas to roll back the tide, I'd sure like to hear them.

Nancy Proctor
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Re
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:13:52 EDT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

Actually, what Murray says -- overburdened by its own greed and corruption, the
 system fails of its own accord -- may already have begun, just as it has in th
e USSR.  The two superpowers may have succeeded in putting one another on the e
conomic ropes.  I'll be very surprised is unemployment ever decreases, or the e
conomy ever improves in my lifetime.  I'm 50 today, and it's been downhill ever
 since I was old enough to notice.  -- Robert
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:30:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>I've found, however, that Starhawk's _Truth or Dare_ seems to be a 
>retelling of _Sprial Dance_, sort of a _Spiral Dance_ version 2. In
>it, Starhawk shows a greater balance in diety, and a greater maturity
>of vision of what paganism is for her. I'm not denigrating _Spiral
>Dance_, I still consider it a useful book, and I'm glad I read it. But
>when I'm presenting my beliefs to a novice, I think _Truth or Dare_
>does a better job. 
Thanks Chuck, I'll take a look at it.  

I must agree with you that the key, for me any way, in paganism
is duality. (I'm a Libra, a typical Libra)  I mentioned Spiral
Dance because it seems to be everybody's beginning book.
In the future (after I read it of course) I will probably add
this book to my standard list.

Blessings

Tammy
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8436 soc.motss:37243 rec.games.frp:24981 talk.religion.misc:15078 talk.religion.newage:4109 sci.physics:13715
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,soc.motss,rec.games.frp,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:26:39 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Aug27.233922.18375@peponi.wcc.govt.nz> hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>In article <22AUG92.18047927.0038@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Z57N000 <Z57N@UNB.CA> writes:
>>In article <920818174611_70253.2621_CHC74-1@CompuServe.COM> 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes:
>
>>>If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?
>>>
>>Well, according to mainstream Christianity, that's your decision, right?
>>Hmm... in Hell you can get a nice tan year round...
>>I don't know. I don't care. I'd kind of like to go to New Zealand
>>instead...
>
>What? You mean I'm already in the afterlife? Why did no-one tell me??? :-)

You're better off than me.  Sometimes I think I died and they sent me to
the bad place; I live in southern California. 

>So wha  happens to New Zealanders who die? Do we go to Fiji? :-)

You don't go to SoCal, that's fer sher, unless you REALLY screwed up. 

>anthony
>p.s. Chris Colvin sent me a lovely bit of mail saying he was glad to know I
>thought of him as a fool, "just like Einstein". Sorry to break this to ya,
>Chris, but Einstein was a Jewish agnostic as far as I remember. So he's in
>hell. Or do I mean Australia? :-)

I get the biggest kick out of people who can't add two and two comparing
themselves to Einstein.  These are generally the same people who think
that E=mc^2 is the entirety of special relativity.  It's not the
ignorance that bothers me; not everyone can spend the time to learn this
stuff.  It's the pomposity gained from watching a PBS special on
atrsonomy and thinking you know it all.   

Blessings,
Janis
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Republicans & Propaganda
Summary: sing the "I am not a Nazi" polka
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:40:31 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <MAD.92Sep2143650@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com>, mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis) writes:

> [specific Hitlerian ravings deleted]

> I think I see where you want our thoughts to end up after reading your
> post: Hitler say some things and was a Nazi.  Republicans say some
> similar things.  Therefore Dan Quayle is a Nazi.

Forget the "therefore" and your logical scruples.  I would willingly
agree that neither Bush, nor even Quayle (not even -yech- Buchanan)
are Nazis.  They would, I am sure, be *greatly* pained if someone
(other than a Democrat, of course) called them this, and would go
on at great length about how badly misunderstood they are to be called
such horrible names.

Indeed, they are about the only thing I find MORE comtemptible than
Nazis -- they are "ordinary" poeple floundering to gain/keep power[*]
by any conceivable appeal, with ZERO interest in the consequences.
They wish to DRAW on the sources of Nazi power and the hatred and
violence that implies, while having the purest and cleanest of con-
sciences, since -- after all -- they don't REALLY mean that everyone
they use as targets should be hauled out of house and home and beaten
and sent to camps to be disposed of.  Oh, goodness, no.  They just want
power.  Why is everyone so upset?  It's so, like, unFORtunate if a
few people get excited and indulge in possibly (if the juries can't
be swayed by fundie rhetoric) culpable behavior when we speak of such
pure and peaceful things like family values...
------
[*] the pagan community that is unympathetic to "christian" notions
should note that this is the kind of thing a Christian has in mind
in talking about "original sin."  It is *not* pretty.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon			"I know of nothing -- I suspect
					not even death -- that is so fixed
mls@usl.com				in the present tense as love."
standard disclaimer					-- Jess Anderson
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Date: 24 Aug 92 17:42:39 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.065332.2887@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>
>	Any decent copy of The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien will have Anglo-Saxon
>Runes in it.

Nononononononono!!!!!!  *DON'T* trust Tolkein for the runes!  His
dwarvish runes have the right shapes but he deliberately gave them all
the wrong letter values (A-S scholar that he was, he knew damn well what
the values were, so the only explanation I can come up with is that he
changed them on purpose).


Just my $.02: I've seen the Page book praised here, and add my praise to
that.  I also like: THE ENCHANTED ALPHABET (I've loaned it to somebody,
so can't get the author just off hand).  I'll post my Grand Review of
All Rune Books sometime this week as I get time.

B*B
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:03:00 GMT

>Hang on dere, man. You mean there are _pre-Christian_ British crosses?
>WHERE? I presume we're talking about a distinct quartered-circle design,
>here, not a triskele or swastika.
>I mean I'd love this to be true ...
> 

(Some one correct me if I'm wrong)

According to what I have "heard" the cross the Xtians use was 
actually a very powerful symbol among pre-Xtian pagans.  

(Now I'm on more solid ground)

In the early days of Xtianity there was no organization, no symbols,
nothing.  There were many groups calling themselves Xtian.  The
Xtianity that we know today is simply the group that won out.

Now, Xtianity wasn't strong back then.  In their attempt to convert
the British Isles to Xtianity, Gregory the Great sent a letter to
St Augustine telling him to take their (the pagans) symbols, their
places of worship, their holy days, etc. and make them into 
Xtian symbols, places, holy days, etc.  This method was used with
others as well I suppose.  Anyway this is why there is so much
Paganism in Xtianity.

The original sybol of Paulianity (as I call Xtianity) was the fish.
Hence the symbolic fish used today, (at least here in the states).
The idea that there lord was crucified was a mark of shame to them.
Crucifixtion was about the greatest punishment one could have.
The shame of it was greater than the shame of AIDS in the early
1980's.  They wouldn't have even *THOUGHT* to use a cross to
symbolize their religion.

The cross was taken from pagans in the manner stated above.  As
a means of converting pagans to Xtianity by providing familiar
symbols, places, etc.  I personally think this is why Mother
Mary is so strong in the Catholic church.  She was the replacement
for the Goddess for pagan converts.

Does that help any.

Anybody else with xtra to add please do.

Tammy
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:29:37 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <2A9A8377.18422@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>Dunno.  I remember Archie Bunker saying that the way to keep hijacking
>from happening was to pass out guns to everybody onthe plane.  This
>sounds similar.  If I need to keep a death-dealing device at my side at
>alltimes to insure that I don't get my rights taken away, I'm slitting
>my wrists right now.  The next life (if there is one) must be better
>than having to live like that.
>
>Blessings,
>Janis

	Well, Janis, it was nice knowing you, and I'm really sorry to 
hear you won't be with us much longer.  The people in goverment have
power.  As a general rule they like it.  Some are willing to commit
violent acts to get more.  Or maybe (as in Bush and crew) they feel their
worldview is better and are willing to be violent in order to make sure
you do to.  Either way, you have three options: 
	1) Smile at the man with the big gun, and do as he says
		(What most people will do)
	2) Run
		(What most sane people who won't do #1 will do)
	3) Kick said man in the bollocks, take his gun, and threaten
		to use it, if he doesn't go away.  Or just use it.
		(Hehe. Who's left after #1 and #2?)
	This situation is none of pleasant, social or a route to long life.
It is, in fact a good way to make it "nasty, bruitish and short".  I wish
we could all just calm down and work it our with our minds rather than
with our guns, but I just don't have much hope left.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Republicans & Propaganda
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:17:47 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

I ran across a couple of quotes the other day   that I thought might
interest folks here in light of the threads dealing with Fascisim
and Republicans.

"Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home.
We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men."

Who said it?  Pat Buchannon? Pat Robertson? Phyllis Schaffley?  ;}

"I am fighting for the Lord's work."
Surely Danny Boy said this in his attack on Hollywood. ;]


"All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level,
that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will
understand it.  Therefore, the intellectual level of the propaganda must
be lower the larger the number of people who are to be influenced by it."

Maybe a quote from Marlin Fitzwater?
(giving away Republican campaingn tactics) ;>

"We stand for the maintenance of private property . . . We shall protect
 private enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible,
 economic order."

Could this be from one of George's speeches, maybe at the convention? ;}

Nope,

Adolf Hitler wrote all of the above in _Mein_Kampf_.

Ain't it a shame.


Blessings from an increasingly agravated,
Nancy Proctor

///////////////////////////////
Nancy Josephine Proctor . . . . PA142138@UTKVM.EDU

"It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question."
                                 Eugene Ionesco

////////////////////////////// . . .