From: billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith)
Subject: Re: Verbal Bashing Of Miami
Organization: University of Michigan
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:34:07 GMT

In article <BxoJvs.Dsv@encore.com> jfrederi@encore.com (Justin Frederich) writes:

[this is getting a bit silly, but I'll try one last time]

   William Mangione-Smith writes:

   In article <> j_hardin@oz.plymouth.edu (James J. Hardin) writes:

   >   The thing that bothers me is the slander directed at Miami pertaining
   >   to some off-field problems.  Some examples include:  calling Miami
   >   players convicts and uneducated.  Calling them classless, etc,etc.

   Did you see the Texas (cotton bowl?) game a few years ago? Haven't you heard

   >   Dennis Erickson has done a good job channelling that emotion into
   >   something positive.  No other team plays harder than Miami. 

   >Right, its a good thing they brough Erickson in after that Texas debacle,
   >other wise we might all think the university condoned the bragging,
   >showboating, and taunting on the field.  (mind you, I *do* know the calendar
   >of events here).

   William,

please.  Its Bill.  Thats the way I sign every note, the computer puts in William.

   You do not know the calendar of events or much else. You do know how to 
   go on and on about the team you love to hate. That would be fine if you

I very much do know the calander of events, as I'll point out in a minute.
And your wrong about me hating the 'canes.

   I was at that Cotton Bowl you refer to and the coach on the sidelines
   was - guess who? - Dennis Erickson !!! If you knew the calendar of events
   you would know that not only did he coach the Canes throughout 1990 but
   also 1989. 

Justin, I didn't put the year down because I didn't know it.  What I did know
for sure was that Erickson was the coach.  My comment above was sarcasm, and
just in case it wasn't clear enough for the net I put the parenthetical note
in.  I'm sorry if that wasn't clear to you.  James suggested that Erickson
had cleaned up what somepeople find objectionable about Miami, and I pointed
out that the most memorable on the field incidents occurred under his reign.

   season. I agree that the Canes showboating under Johnson made them look
   bad and even though he's been gone 4 seasons you will never forget what
   happened and you will call any new players on the Miami team a lot of
   bad names. As the years go by a lot of people will see the changes
   Coach Erickson has made in the way the team acts - but we know you won't.

Well, your reading way too much into my responce.  James went on about how it
was unfair that Miami caught so much flack and I pointed out some of the
sound reasons for why many people don't like them. I didn't say those were my
feelings.  I don't have a history of posting trash about your team, and you
don't know me from a hole in the wall.  You've not been able to accurately
read my last post, so why are you so sure you can accurately predict how I'll
act in the future?  Maybe you would like to let me in on what I'll order
tonight for dinner, I'm having a tough time choosing between two dishes.

   What you're doing actually pulls them closer together.
   The 'us against the world' attitude is part of why they work so damn
   hard year-round to be the best players they can be. What's ironic is that
   as long as *@%$#%@&*# like you keep it up they will remain on top of the
   football world.

Let me get this straight.  You don't have the guts to call me an asshole, or
whatever *@%$#%@&*# means, and yet you get on your high horse about not
making personal attacks.

   I know , Mr. Smith, that I've questioned your Michigan team in the past

My name is Mangione-Smith.  Bill, billms, BillMS, Mr. M-S, or a wide range of
other reasonable substitutes is generally considered acceptable by me.  I
have no idea why you chose to chop my name in half, but I'd prefer it if you
didn't.

   and I now feel that you are very thin-skinned concerning them but I've
   never made any kind of a personnal attack like you do. I've basically

Please point out my personal attacks.  I've done that very infrequently, but
done it none the less, and most of the time (as a few people on the net can
attest to) I'll step up and apologize for them.  I don't, however, blindly
throw around baseless comments attacking either posters or their teams.  My
*only* problem with you Justin, is that you do exactly this with my favorite
team.  But thats actually my problem, I shouldn't let your prejudice get the
better of me that way.  By the way, I'm sorry I called you a jerk a few posts
ago.

   pointed out games that Michigan has lost etc. in response to the many
   threads that you or another Michigan fan post saying how Mich is the
   best, the greatest, better than Miami etc. etc. etc. 

I've never made any of those claims.  Please get your facts straight.  You
seem to be lumping the posts of all people from one school together.  Trust
me, there are people from umich that I *don't* agree with and I've recently
said so.  If you've got something against *me*, say it to me, don't get on me
for something somebody else says.

   If you follow my postings about Michigan , you will find that every one
   of them is a response to what I felt was an outrageous boast.

Perhaps, I haven't noticed actually.  What I do know is that many of your
responces have included baseless attacks.

   Why don't you (or any other Mich fan) answer these questions :

There you go again.  If you've got a gripe against something the school has
done, or something a poster has typed, take it up with that person.  I'm not
in the business of defending everything my team, school, or fellow alums
might say.  But what the hell, I'll give it a try here.

      1. Why does Michigan feel they can demand that other (non-conference)
	 teams play all their games against Michigan in Ann Arbor ?
	    -please don't use ND as an example of home & home scheduling
	     because they are one of the few teams I feel is more arrogant
	     than Michigan when it comes to scheduling

Justin, you've got it all wrong here.  Michigan has the worlds largest
American football stadium, so playing there will (assuming equal ticket
prices) rake in the most bucks.  Plus the home team usually makes the most
money.  Plus the home team usually has an advantage on the field, typically
pegged at ~3 pts.  You are pissed off that Miami came up here 2 (or was it
3?) times in the recent past and my team never went down there.  Take it up
with Miami, its there fault.  Nobody held a gun to their head.  My guess is
that either:
	1) the arrangements were made when Miami wasn't nearly as good
	as they are now, and they needed the prestige of playing michigan
	so gave up something.  This depends on when the schedule for those
	games was set, and I don't know when that was.
	2) Miami wanted the money, which may or may not have been more
	playing on the road in AA
	3) Somebody in Miami screwed up
You go figure, I don't know which one it is.  This is football, not a ladies
knitting circle.  All teams prefer to play at home, unless there is a big
chunk of change due for playing on the road.  You try and screw the other guy
by never giving him a home game.  It looks to me like Miami got screwed.
Thats not Michigan's fault, its Miami's.  Michigan screwed up in the ND game
this year and lost the kickoff for both halfs.  This is an advantage to ND.
Should they have stepped back, because getting the ball twice isn't fair, and
given it to Michigan?

      2. Why doesn't Michigan schedule better non-conference teams since
	 their conference is so weak lately and play them home and away ?

I'm not going to fall for this one.  The teams in the Big-10 are more
competative, over the last 20 years, than the teams in the Big east.  This
year is *one* exception.  Would you like to compare the teams over the last
5/10/15/20 years?.  This year we scheduled Houston and OSU when they were
considered very strong teams, and they fell apart in the intervening years.
Tell me, do you have a ligitimate beef here, or are you just grinding your
axe, because this point holds no water and you know it.

      3. Why do you boast about being the greatest team etc. when it's
	 generally agreed that the big 10 has fallen on hard times and
	 all you're doing is pounding weak sisters ?

I've never boasted that.  So is Alabama shit because they are pounding weaker
teams?  If your schedule goes south that doesn't change the ability of *your*
team.  Your logic is failing here, Justin.

      4. Why does the Big 10 insist on extending the Rose Bowl contract
	 and Michigan agree to this (for the BIG payout - I know) and
	 then attack Miami because you think Miami may play in the OB
	 instead of somewhere that would net them almost 2 million less.

Miami has caught a ton of flack for this "hiding" thing.  That has never come
from me, and I don't think your right identifying it with Michigan fans.
You've got to look a little closer to find your culprits, Justin.

The big 10 likes the rose bowl because: the competition is almost always
great, the pay out is huge, there is tradition the alums like, and it gets
the most exposure (over a series of years) so it helps recruiting more than
any other bowls.  

      5. How much is Michigan's share of the Rose Bowl after expenses ?

Hell if I know.  Whats the difference?  My team now isn't allowed to make any
money?  After expences, the big 10 schools split all bowl proceeds.  If your
trying to make Michigan out to be a money grubbing school, and implying that
there is something wrong with that, you've missed.  Miami kept all its cash
until now.  Do they split in the big east, or do they still keep all the
cash?


      6. Don't you think Michigan and some other top ten teams would get
	 more respect if they played more top 25 opponents ?

I don't think you know a damn thing about scheduling.  Iowa was a top 10
school to start the season.  OSU is a top 25 now.  Michigan St has generally
been a top 25 school, and Indian and Illinois usually switch on and off.
Then there is ND.  Houston and Ok ST have been solid top programs in the
recent past.  Justin: can you tell me who michigan played out of conference
last year?  How about the year before that?  How many out of conference games
can you name over the last 10 years?  I suspect that you just don't know the
facts here, but please feel free to prove me wrong.

      7. Don't you think the Pac-10 would be better off if they could play
	 the best opponent in the Rose Bowl instead of always a big-10 team ?

You'd have to ask the Pac 10 about that, but given their desire to sign a new
RB contract (which reportedly is biased in the Big 10's favor) I think its
pretty clear that the pac 10 doesn't agree with you.  So, you know whats good
for the pac 10 better than they do?

      8. Couldn't that have settled the MNC last year, for example, if
	 Michigan played somewhere else and Washington played the other
	 undefeated team. Hell you could have played Nebraska in the OB !

Sounds like you are a fan of the playoff system.  I'm not.  So what?  Funny,
huh?  Your team, over the last 10 years, has more to lose than anybody else
if there had been a playoff, and my team has close to the most to win.

      9. Can you ever admit that Miami may have done the RIGHT thing in the
	 West Virginia game by playing 66 boys and dropping out of first
	 because they didn't run up the score ?

Bing!  We have hit the jackpot here ladies and gentelmen.  I have *no* idea
what you are talking about.  I don't follow the 'canes as closely as you do,
and I certainly don't hold a blind hate for them.  I've never commented on
anything to do with West Virginia, and I haven't read other michigan posters
knocking your team for it.  But like I said, I don't read all the miami
posts.  Do you get it yet Justin?  

     10. If you read this year that Miami's football team is in the top 10 %
	 of all Div 1A teams in graduation rate could you believe it ?

Actually, I wouldn't give a damn.  I think its pretty pointless to argue
about academics with a bunch of football fans.


   Hopefully Mr. Smith you can clean up your act and we can enjoy more
   meaningful comments in r.s.f.c . If not we both can use the .kill !!!

Justin, you've said yourself that you've got an axe to grind over michigan
not comming down to maimi.  I have no axe to grind with the 'canes.  I'm not
the one who needs to clean up his act here, but you just go ahead and use
that old .kill if you feel the need.

Bill
--
-------------------------------
	Bill Mangione-Smith
	billms@eecs.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.college