From: west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West)
Subject: Re: Racism in SF2
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:58:03 GMT

In article <BxwpJB.K06@news.iastate.edu> txam1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.032112.10130@mercury.unt.edu>, west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West) writes:
>>   FUCK YES!  Who is to say what people are allowed to say!  You are going
>>down a dangerous road when you decide who is social correct.
>>--Not really. After all this debating back and forth (with is good for both
>of us i think) I have come to the realization that both points have
>shown some redundance and miscommunication. Well i can say that i havent
>acurately been conveying what i mean. Think about this. In one instance
>if the majority feels that it should set laws on the premise of social
>acceptance of the majority we can get alot of progress and the people
>as a whole are more satisfied. Even if the decision of the majority is
>self intrested or illogical the people as a whole are still happy.

    It is supposed to be the will of the majority, BUT to not infrindge on
the rights of the minority.  Othwise, what about went the "majority" was
pro-slavery?  Our government is supposed to make tough decisions becuase
they are the RIGHT THING TO DO, regardless of public opinion.  We elect
people we think will do the right thing, once they are in they are in to
fix everything up - not fullfil our every whim.

>Say that whatever this law is has a greater effect on the minority and
>it is detrimental to there survival (whether it be economic or other wise).
>Ex. seperate and unequal schooling for African American children in the
>south (pre- Brown v. Board). America as a whole was happy but, did not see
>the long-term danger or the stupidity of this system. If we dont have rules
>set on social acceptance we have mass hysteria and chaos. If we do we 
>have potential social and political uprisings that eventually lead to 
>bloodshed. There are two sides to any point. Would you like it if you

  Well said, one hell of a paradox isn't it.  That's why in the US rules 
are SUPPOSED to be based on one thing only - protection of rights.  That's
the only reason we made a government, for protection.  We did not make a 
government to stop racism, to decide what we are allowed to do, etc etc.
Our government is here to protect you from me - in a very real way.  It is
here so I don't infringe on your rights (as stated in the constituion).
  It is not here to base rules on social acceptence, it is simply here to
protect YOU, the INDIVIDUAL, and YOUR rights from the rest of the world!
Everytime the government goes beyond that - and it does everyday- it is
acting in an unconstitutional fassion!     

>sent your children to my school and i told them things ,on a daily basis,
>that where inconsistent with your morals? If you cant afford another school
>what do you do? Now i ask you again do these laws have a place in the
>government that you want?

   Ahh, you mistoke my point.  FREEDOM OF SPEECH, but seperation of Church and
state.  Church=Free Speech as far our forefathers were concerned, because all
speech censorship, etc was of a religous nature.  You can censor the hell
out of all government institutions.  Wehn I say freedom of speech, I'm talking
TV, radio, talking outside, etc.  Teachers should follow whatever the school
has deemed to be taught in that course...not personal opinion.  If you want
opinion you can hit a private school (they have worse facilities, but are
safer).

>>   Faulty premise.  I said they can SAY whatever they want.  This does not
>>mean in anyway they would gain political control or social influence.  I
>>would hope most people would dismiss them.  But they MUST be allowed to
>>speak.  DON'T DRAW THE LINE - IT WILL BE MOVED ON YOU!
>
>__That's my point also. Do you realize the power of hate groups in this
>country? If PC didnt exist do you realize how much the children of our
>society would be subjected to this bullshit? The views of most people in our
>society have been taught to them. Believe it or not. Whether it be consious
>or sub concious most views, Yes yours and mine have been taught to us.
>Yes there will always be individuals but the majority will always be
>swayed to think in a way that is consistent to the information that the
>take in on a daily basis. ALot of these groups already have the econimic

   Well, somehow, I was taught what I consider the most improtant thing to
be taught : QUESTION EVERYTHING.  Once you get that you are no longer a
sheep. There was no PC when I was growing up - I'm not racist.  In fact,
I would only argue all this PC stuff is a symptom of racism.  If you really
just see PEOPLE AS PEOPLE then you won't think enough to use PC phrases (like
me).  If I'm telling a story and his color is important to the punch, then I
may remember halfway through "oh yea, he was black".  That's the way it should
be - not "the ther day this afro-american gentlement was acosted by an 
undocumented worker...blah blah fucking blah".  I'll talk the way I want to.
I'll give you an example of how PC was used to abolish one sect of society,
just remembered it yesterday. 

>support and political say so to get some of the things they want done
>done. PC is the one the only things protecting children from another
>era of hatred between the races. I dont want this argument of mine merely
>to be narrowed down to the KKK and hate groups. I just want you to know that
>this side of the coin DOES exist along with the side you argue for.

  Only parents, friends, and experiences will get rid of racism.  Actually,
the best way would be if these groups would get so successful and NON-RACIST
that they couldn't be ignored.  Once again, I didn't have PC as a kid, and
I'm less racist then any PC-spewing kid these days who is dodgin bullets.
One thing for sure, there is a huge prejudice against non-PC people emerging,
and this is very sad....to be prejudiced against someone just because he uses
different words than you.

>>What if the child is infulence yet already knows his parents views on 
>whatever the subject maybe. (like you said. That just brings forth another
>generation of red tape for freedom to fight through. Sure i have the right
>or at least should have the right to say whatever the fuck i want. Sureyou
>should have that same right i have. But do i have the right to influence the
>views, thoughts and morals of those who cant or are incapable of making up
>thier own mind? Or at least making a logical, open -eyed desicion on whether
>or not my views are right for them? Of course i do. But do you think i should?
>I want to know what you think personally of this scenario. Not a general
>thought on this type of scenario.

   YES, that is the *point* of free-speech - to CONVERT people.  Otherwise
why bother? Just so people know what you think?  NO, cause you think YOU ARE
right and you wanna convince that person you are right.
   For a specific, let's say this guy talking to you right now is my kid.
You are trying to convince him of certain things.  But, hopefully, I have
tought my child to make a logical, open-minded, decision.  And it would be
his life and he can make whatever decisions he wants to (although I would
debate him also ;;) ).
   As far as people "incapable making up their own minds" I believe free
speech is the only way to give them this ability!  I would say the majority
of Clinton voters fit into the above catagory!  With free-speech perhaps
we could have talked to these people, and we would currently have a different
president.  Perot should not need to pay $60+ mil to say his piece - that
is hardly FREE-speech.

>>   GOOD, and I'll tell you why.  I would hope another group would put up a
>>huge billboard next to that one refuting every argument with *fact*.
>>This is what we call public debate - and this is how we GET the *evolution*
>>you have been wanting.  If we don't talk this out head to head nothing will
>>change - you can't run from these idiots, or pretend they don't exist.
>>I say: Let em say their peace, and we'll say our peace.  And in the end
>>people will see how stupid group X really is.  
>>   And I'll tell you another thing - that is sure of a hell a lot better
>>than the way people with influence and power now get to sneak their 
>>messages into many media forms.  Make it OPEN!  That's what this country is
>>about.  I can't remember the last time this country had a serious religous
>>debate -- they used to be common.>
>Know why? Its becuase religion has been stepped on and spit on the basis of
>its demands on modern society. Present interpretations of our constitution
>are the cause of this. I am not saying whether or not this right or wrong
>just informing you of why i think theyre not common anymore.

   Its also cause there is no free-speech anymore.  Farwell or whatever should
not need to BUY HIS OWN STATION in order to talk religion!  That's rediculous.
I don't agree with the guy - but he, and many others, should be all over the
TV saying whatever they want!  I say every channel should be required to give
up and hour of free air time everyday to some non-commercial speaker.

>>   Well, I'm not going to judge the US or the people in it by some backward
>>Hollywood organanization called the Academy.  
>_Why not? That exactly what ourjoke of a government is. A backwards
>organization. Wouldnt you judge the US by its government?>

   But that is not what our government is SUPPOSED to be.  There were no
such things as POLOTICIANS when our government when great.  Actually, Bush
(although he couldn't get Congress to do what he wanted) was the closest
thing we had to a non-polotician in a long time!  Or atleast closer than
others.  CLinton: mayor - city council - goovernor - pres.  He has never
had a job in his life.  This  should be an interesting 4 years as far as
the "common man" goes.

>>  Same agument as above.  So I guess nobody from sc LA will be allowed to
>>judge how well done Wallstreet or Secret of My Succes was ;)  I don't
>>subscribe to the view that "if you've never been..." then you can't talk on
>>the issue.  Otherwise blacks CANT talk about whites, and visa versa.  Cause
>>neither have ever been the other.  Women shouldn't talk about or judge
>>men, and visa versa.  And we should all sit in cubicals - since nobody has
>>really had the exact same existance as *you* have (general you).
>
>Not entirely true. You see it is possible to judge someone by the way they 
>treat yo. It sounds to me that you are saying that if i killed your brothe out

  Treatment is different.  You need to talk to someone to see how they treat
you.  I'm talking people crossing the street at night, etc.  I really don't
think there is much "treatment" racism - or atleast not as much as other forms.

>of hatred or cold blood, that you still wouldnt be qualified to tell your
>friends whether i am a nice guy or not? While we havent had the same experience
>or existance as one another the things we do that affect each other determine
>our respective outlooks one another. Dont you agree?

   AS INDIVIDUALS, yes.  But I really try not to let the race, or sex of an
individual rub off on me.  If someone killed my brother I can't say what I
would do (tough situation).  But I would definitely get that guy fried.

>>  People have got to stop judging books by the cover, and just look at
>>people as people.  I personally don't give any shit whatsoever what someone's
>>life experience is - it may help me understand one's point of view, but it
>>sure as hell doesn't make em right.
>>   Well, every Italian I see is in the Mafia - hasn't held me back!  I think
>>what *does* happen is you a) see all these movies b) an uneducated slang
>>talking person of such race come up to you or applies for a job - and you
>>make the association.  For example, when I wear my trenchcoat and go out
>>at 4 smoking I am often seen as a gangster (big resemblence in build).  But
>>when I get into the professional arena I am a different person - and that
>>association is never made!
>
>And i'll bet the wa you dress and the things you say don significantly
>separate you from the dress and view of most people in your workplace
>right or wrong?

   Hard to say.  When I *work* I do just that.  The boss is the boss, and
that's it.  I dress the way I'm supposed to (pretty much - won't take off
my chain) and do what I'm supposed to (pretty much).  But on breaks and what
not I am myself.  I don't hide my feelings or dress.  The shift is over,
the trench comes on, and I'm mafia man again.  But the point is I am my own
person.  And, I'm pretty much defferent from all my co-workers.  I don't
blend into crowds for some reason - don't know why (really).  But I always 
seem to be remembered.

>>   One of the major problems *is* there are too many slang talking uneducated
>>minorities!  Take for example surfers, "hey dude."  When I moved to TX all I
>>had to say is I was from CA and say "hey dude" and BOOM - I was a stupid
>>surfer guy.  If I don't do that then the association is never made.  ie.
>>Ever see Die Hard.  The black hacker in that could never in a million
>>years be called a thug.  If he went in for a job he would have no problem.
>>What the problem is many black people would call him *white*. Why, I dunno.
>>(I say this cause I was watching it yesterday and noticed this)
>---If all these "slang talking, uneducated minorities where given half
>a chance on all levels to be a Grammatically Sound and as Learned as most
>whites in this country then you wouldnt think that way. MY life hasnt been
>that hard. I am not gonna get on a soap box and say that i have lived the hard
>life because i havent. But i am close enough to the root apethy and social
>frustration in this country to see that its not the same for everyone.
>You are kidding yourself if you think it is.

  Nope, its not the same for ANYONE.  I have a friend who is a single mother,
an asain who had a child very early with a black guy who ditched her hard.
She was the classic "single mom stranded with her child."  And this is in
San Diego where to cost of living is LARGE.  I babysat this kid forever
until I moved here (was essentially his father figure).  He is in high school
right now making As and doing pretty damn well.  She is a nurse and they live
in a pretty decent place (just moved).  The biggest hurdle for him to currently
jump is a lot of his black friends have gotten him into some serious rap and
self-pity.  but I think he is coming out of the stage.  But I'll tell you this
guy is going to do very well, can speak very proper English.  I have several 
friends in a similar situation (single moms that is).  Not a one of them
has needed wellfare or anything of the sort (maybe one had wellfare for a month,
I forget).  A couple are janitors on a UC campus and use their faculty
cards to get some education.  One of em just became a stenographer (courtroom
typist) - VERY well paying job.
  It has been my expirience that it is possible to succeed by yourself. Anyway,
this a whole different topic - so lets not get into this. But, in closing, just
cause IT MAY BE HARDER is NO EXCUSE.  get off your ass and work twice as hard!
My girlfriends parents are 1st generation mexicans!  Her mom can't speak 
english (STILL!) and can't drive, the father can speak a little and understand
s some.  The father has a 4th grade education, the mother a little higher.
They are both facory workers making about 25k combined a year, and she is
going to college on her own money with some help from them!  Now, my view is
if they can do so can anybody else.  Period.  My mind won't get changed on
that one.  The hard part is - you need to be willing to WORK!  Dig ditches,
shovel shit, etc.  Life's a bitch.

>>   Well, I can say I have NEVER seen such a group of racist blacks as in
>>college (back when I was at UT).  You would walk out of Jester dorm (3000
>>people) and it was the African nation.  Not a single black talking to a 
>>white guy.  They just formed in huge groups for you to wade through, they
>>gave you dirty lucks as you brushed against them, it was sick.  Not a one
>>of them speaking decent English.  THIS IS COLLEGE.  The open mind discussion
>>of the world forum!  And there was this intense close-mindedness.
>(racism-- The practice of systematic discriminatory actions of one race to
>another. Racism can only be practiced on a race of lesser power or influence.

  LAUGH!  I heard I guy on television propegating this false definition.
So blacks can't be racist,  One word - BULLSHIT!  So I guess I can't be
racist since I'm just a college student?  Maybe I'll go out and shoot some
nigger businessman - as long as its not racist since he has more power 
than me.

>_That is the definition that was given to me by my Poli Sci professor of the
>meaning of racism. What you are witnessing is the ramifacations of the fucked
>up system that we have in america. What you heard was not meant to please
>or appeal to the ears of mainstream america. The way that black people
>generally speak to each othr is brought about by a combination, or social
>isolation, lack of education, and in some instances a form of pride
>in a form of communication that they can call thier own. All the unrest you
>see in the eyes of black people today is due to frustration and anger.

   Why is it when is is blacks is the above, but the skinheads are stupid?
Skinhead are frustrated and mad!  That still makes em fucks.  I don't give
a rats ass why a black is a asshoel to me - but its not gonna score them
any points with me.  And I sure as hell wouldn't hire someone like that.

>You just happen to fit the description of the perpatrator. (literally speaking)
>And on the close-mindedness thing. Black people are speaking its just that
>they cant be heard in some places and in other places people arent listning.
>Again this leads to frustration. You turn your back to my ideas i turn my 
>back on your ideas. I am sure that this is not the feeling of every black
>person on that campus, but you must remember they are bound by the same
>social pressures that kept many white afraid to speak out against slavery
>in thier community. Not many people are willing to risk bieng an outcast
>just to gaint the support or even the acceptance and the respect of another
>race with a generally differing viewpoint.

   I don't judge all blacks base on my example - just the ones standing right
there, every damn night.  My point is it is NOT HELKPING THE CAUSE. And
maybe the black leaders should pull their head out of their ass and learn
what equal rights means.            

>>   I say this cause my Mexican girlfriend pointed something outrageous to me.
>>Blacks make up 2% of the UT population (50k students), Hispanics 14%!!!
>>And believe me, nobody would ever have thought that.  They essencially
>>took over the place to show that they could - they were loud, obnoxious,
>>elitist, supremist, and forced you to see em.  You couldn't even watch
>>TV in the lounge cause the backlog from the entrance went all the way into
>>the lounge - so you couldn't hear the TV at full blast!
>
>--No angry person can think clearly. If blacks at your school flet justly
>treated there would be no problems i am sure. 

   They, personally arn't pissed, they are doing it for "the race".  They are
making a statement.  And I would say that mexicans are prejudiced against
just as much if not more in TX (because its a border state).  But you
don't see them misderecting their anger toward white students.  Shit, there
was a shootout between the two black fraternities on campus.  Its getting
really stupid.  If you want to fight the power go march on capital hill
every night.  

>>   I am in no way saying this is indicitive of blacks in general.  But I *am*
>>saying their is a serious anti-everybodybutblack movement out there - and
>>I think it is being called "black pride" (bullshit).  I'll tell you I don't
>>even know if I have Italian pride cause I've never thought of it - but I
>>know I have pride in myself, and that's enough.  We need to start teaching
>>people that people are just that.  Everyone is a *person* and should be
>>treated as such.  This message has obviously been concentrated too much on
>>the white population - cause many blacks have missed the boat.  I really
>>think Martin Luther King would be ashamed of the official actions of the
>>black race today.
>--What exactly are the official actions of the black race? For one thing
>i must tell you that if Martin Luther King were alive today he would not
>be able to get much done. (In my opinion) There are plenty of people
>out there with the same message that Martin Luther King preaches.
>example: Jesse Jackson, while jesse jackson is a positive figure for blacks
>and white alike. His goals and actions are severly retarded by the fact
>that he is a political leader rather than a social leader. Sure there

   I don't see Jesse jackson as even close to Mertin Luther King.  King
wanted blacks and whites TOGETHER.  Malcom X, eventually, wanted the same thing.
And both wanted blacks to DO THEIR OWN WORK, to "show the whites that we are
just as good", if you will.  Much different then "keep hope alive."

>are black hate groups out there. And they hate white people becuase the
>black man has been and still is the subject of the white mans hatred and
>manipulation. Like i said for some people the rate we are going is too slow.

   BULLSHIT.  I'm so sick of this.  If the white man has so much power then
why can't I do shit?  The powerful have the power, and they happen to be
twisted old white men.  I'm just as fucked over as black people.  The cops
kick my ass just as much.  It's just as hard for me to get ahold of a  
burecrat.  Its just as hard for me to find a good job.  Its just as hard for
me to find affordable housing.  If they don't like it they can't get off
their, get off the talk shows, and go make a difference.

>Revolution is in the making. I do not advocate hatred, but i personally think
>that this system is so screwed up that we have no hope of changing it
>from the inside. I personally feel that the black man unfortunately, doesnt
>have a place in this country as an equal. Not that we dont deserve it.
>Not that we shouldnt have it. But i think that africa is more important.
>That does NOT mean that i hate whites. That doesnt mean i hate anyone.
>I just dont think we are getting anywhere here. I just seems illogical
>to me that we as people sit here and fight for equality as 14% of the pop.
>But that's not the way it is. Back to blacks in general. Hate breeds hate.
>How can you expect love from a people that is treated like shit in this
>country? Not saying that we all shouldnt love each other. But that is too 
>broad a solution. Heck if we all loved each other there would be no problems
>in the world.

   I'm all for revolution, revolution of minds.  If the blacks want 
equality its really simple.  Clean up your town, stop shooting each other,
get off drugs, get an education, get a job, INCLUDE YOURSELF IN SOCIETY!
This is directed more toward ghettos then blacks in general.  But I'll tell
you right now, if a gang tried to puch shit around here it would be vigilante
all the way.  It wouldn't last a week.  The first time someone was killed
or raped it would be funny.  You would see about 100 bubas out there with
guns hunting the fuckers.  And they would leave "right quick like".
   There are drugs here, but without the violence for some strange reason.
I guess cause its mostly acid and pot (love drugs).

>>   I have no idea.  People who control tv put on tv what they *think* you
>>want.  This is a good example of why PC is bad.  Say those same people in
>>charge of TV were in charge of the PC guidelines.  And they thought everyone
>>thought blacks only get arrested and nobody minded.  Maybe you would be 
>>singing a different tune?  Maybe you would think it was a tad racist even.
>>Believe these things always get back to be controlled by the people in
>>power -- FIGHT THE ROOT CAUSE!  Stamp out censorship!
>__It already like that. Take a look at the prisons across the country.
>The system is more than a tad racist. I agree that most people in jail
>are there because they should be. Commit a crime. Go to jail. But how
>many of those people would be in there if they where white?
>NO WHITE MAN HAS EVER (and i repeat EVER!) gone to the electric chair or
>served a life sentence for the murder of a black man or woman. You probably

  Well, Ill tell you why in today's times.  the majority of blacks are killed
by blacks.  Its just playing the odds.  But also, its cause we have never
really had a "true" death penalty.  Less than 300 people have ever been 
executed here.  That's one hell of a weak death penalty.

>didnt think that was possible but it the truth. Look it up. Ask a judge.
>But anyways. Censorship is bad as a whole. It is bad as an extreme i agree.
>But in some cases you must admit it has its place. That unfortunately leads
>us back into a moral issue which cant be comprimised so i wont argue further
>on this point.>

  No it doesn't.  I'm going to give you a good anti-PC example in a bit.

>>  Elect a fucking common man - it's not that tough.  While everyone is out
>>there whining and saying "when will we have a black woman president" - why
>>don't we worry about getting some common people up there!  Intelligent,
>>succesful people who arn't politicans and know what needs to be done.
>>Get involved in United We Stand (can't say that enough).  We're going for
>>congress in 94!  This is a fucking revolution - and hopefully we can have
>>a "bloodless revolution" one of the years.  When we take our country back 
>>through congress and the president.
>__You just try it. A fucking common man would need money for his campaign
>becuase without it he would get torn to pieces by money and power through
>the press and others. He would undoubtedly be grabbed by the balls by the same
>people that have grabbed every other candidate by the balls for as long as
>we have live under the laisez- faire philosophy.


*THE PC EXAMPLE - HERE WE GO*
   I forogt all about a group of people directly targeted, then shot   down
by PC.  I hope you can see that this same process can turned on ANY group of
people.  This group, smokers.
   Smoking, it kills you, its bad, its disgusting, whatever you say -ITS LEGALL.
The governemnt knows they can't make it illegal (prohibition 2).  So what
do they do?  PC IT!  In an attempt to save you from yourself.  It was almost
overnight.  First the posters started all over, "Don't smoke you life away",
"Don't be a dip," etc.  To give you a feel for the "Don't be a dip sign" it
was a poster of this ugly spud with rotten teeth with a bunch of arrows 
pointing to him giving characteristics.  One of those "NO FRIENDS".  Can you
fucking believe that?
   It then bled into media.  Smokers were not allowed on sit-coms.  Special
shows on the damage of smoking.  The 2nd hand smoking BULLSHIT. "2nd hand
smoking is more harmful then direct smoking".  If this is true, then smoke
a cigerette to save yourself from the polutted air, give me a fucking break.
   Then came the city ordinancess, no smoking in restaraunts of certain
design.  No smoking on planes.  No smoking in airports.  This was a serious
infrindgemt on the "rights of the minority."  I wouldn't have cared had
they said "make a special compartment for smokers".  But this was beyond
segregation - this was an absolute attempt to change public perception.
   Now this system of changing public perception overnight should SCARE THE
FUCK OUT OF YOU!  Did they have shows on drugs? no.  Did they target crack
or something?  No.  They spent millions upon millions to save people from
 a product that has a warning label and everyone knows is bad for you.
Hell, it's almost as bad for you as sugar, fat, and nutrasweet.  I remember
my neighbor, joint in hand, telling me how my 2nd hand smoke was bad for
her.   Shit, gotta go.  More later.



>>>>>Jason Gregory
>>>>>So. Political Science
>>>>>Iowa State University
>>
>>
>>Jason West
>>CS
>>
>>>>pps:  Don't respond by email -- i don't get my mail right now for some reason.
>>>
>>
>>


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