From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Date: 4 Aug 92 09:19:02 GMT
Reply-To: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.

gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:

>What I finf truly amazing is that people that I consider to be quite
>intelligent get so completely bent out of shape and ignore all of
>their skeptical training when some one mentions the g word.  Gun that
>it, not god.

>My earlier post was responded to by Leonard Norrgard, from Finland.  I
>will not quote from the past articles, but simply make the following
>comments:
>1-The crime in this country occurs disproportionately in the large,
>poor cities, such as NYC, Washington and Detroit. This has nothing to

  This is probably the case in all poor cities.  The different
crime rates in different countries might be mainly due to cultural
differences (eg the disparity between the rich and poor in that city,
how easy it is for criminals to get away with their crime etc)

>do with guns because these cities have the strictest gun control laws
>in the country.  In NYC, for instance, you simply can not buy hand
>guns legally.  The problem is one of economics, and the symptom is
>crime, some times perpetrated with guns.

Are you claiming the robbery rate would be just as high if people
had to use knives.

>2-The comment about a person getting a gun and becoming a criminal,
>thereby being able to get the gun legally, is pure bullshit.  This
>simply does not happen (with any statistical significance).  There are

Yes but a criminal would be more likely to rob if they have a gun 
rather than a knife or a stick (IMHO).

>3-Anyone who believe that the police and military are there to protect
>and serve is not living in the same world I am.  But, then again,

 The police are there to maintain some degree of order, protect 
property of the better off from damage, etc.  So they are there
to protect.  I live on Earth what world do you live on?

>  Hint: Would Tienamen Square have happened if the
>Chinese had the RKBA?  

Why not?  Only a fool would believe possession of guns alone would
prevent that GIVEN the fact that governments have tanks, missiles,
flame throwers, napalm, etc.

>Too many people have been brainwashed into believing that guns are bad
>and that guns cause ccrime.  This simply isn't true.  As scientists,

Give a criminal a knife and they might use it.
Give a criminal a gun and they might use it.
Give a criminal a nuclear bomb and they might use it.

>we are obligated to seek the truth, not the propaganda spread by
>certain groups.  Personally, the fact that I own firearms for the
>my protection does not make me happy.  I would rather live in a
>utopian society where everyone's needs and wants are met, thereby
>eliminating the cause of crime.  However, the world today is not
>utopian and to survive, we must each look out for ourselves.  And to
>do this effectively, it means owning guns.

Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
used guns to commit more robberies etc.