HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotshell reloader advice?
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:45 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer/ESD/OSBU/SW Dev/App & Tool Dev


#: Looking around in the catalogs I can see MEC, Lee and Hornady.  The
#: MEC Grabber and Hornady 366 look about equiv, but the Lee line doesn't
#: seem to have a progressive.  I can't find a reference to the
#: Ponsness-Warren, but I recall it as being a fine loader - any
#: references and prices out there?  Any shotshell loaders I've missed?  (I
#: haven't called Dillon yet - but didn't think that they were on the verge
#: of release of theirs).

A guy at Dillon told me that their shotgun reloader wouldn't be out for
at least a year.  He suggested I get the P-W for the time-being :-)
From: edhresko@hresko.eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: One more Cz52 question
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:29 GMT
Organization: Techno-Geeks Inc.


	Also, as an aside:
	Cz stands for (spelling) Czeska Zjobjika which is a SPECIFIC factory
	Vz stands for vizor, which means model.

So, for the military rifles and pistols, the correct nomenclature is Vz52, not
Cz52.  The Cz stuff is for later commercial ventures by the factory.
-- 


Eric

******************************************************************************
Eric Hresko		* Mail:  edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu                        
Kanki House of Steaks   * Voice: (why would you want to call?) 1-919-821-5168
Dishwasher 2nd Class    * HK Rules!!! (But a FAL will do in a pinch)         
DISCLAIMER:  I don't wear sandals, eat granola, or tiptoe thru the Tulips    
                                                                             
At what temp will a frog become a superconductor?                             
				-Me at 3 a.m.                                
******************************************************************************

Xref: sparky rec.guns:18914 talk.politics.guns:25899
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: International Gun Laws - Informational Posting
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:18 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

This is a reminder about an FTP archive with articles  describing
the   gun   legislation   of  various countries.  I would like to
thank all the authors for their contributions.

The articles are available via anonymous FTP from out  local  FTP
site  ftp.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  (128.130.39.16)  in  the  directory
/pub/misc/guns/gunlaw.  The README file there contains additional
information.

The gun laws of the following countries have  been  described  so
far   ('->'  marks  signify  information that is new,  changed or
extended since my last post, that is, usually, since last week):

	Australia
	Austria
	Finland
	Germany
	The Netherlands
 	Sweden
	Switzerland
	United Kingdom
	USA

If you are versed in the gun laws of any country but  these  men-
tioned above (or if you find some important points not covered in
the  overviews)  please  send  me  mail  (I  can  be  reached  as
holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at).   Thanks in advance for your coopera-
tion.

Please contact me BY MAIL.  I am not able to monitor Usenet  news
on a regular basis.  Some articles might get purged before I read
them.

Note: From now on, I *WILL* cover US gun laws.  Just  don't  send
me  the  special  regulations of each county, please.  Let's keep
this on a state-or-above level.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:09:49 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

}From article <1993Jan4.130458.7348@email.tuwien.ac.at>, by holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)):
} You are confronted with a very  unfriendly  and  rather  big  dog
} (growling,  foam  at  the mouth, suspected rabies) in your garden
} (so carry laws are not an issue).  What gun/ammo would  you  like
} to have with you?

This happened to me a few years ago.  I was puttering around the back yard
of the house I'd recently moved into when I heard growling and barks.
Looking up, I saw my neighbor's two dobermans had knocked a couple of
boards out of our fence and were not pleased with my presence.

I decided the best course was to establish just who was the alpha male
around here.  I approached the growling canines and, putting on my
sternest look and voice, said "You broke my fence!"

That was not the response they expected.  While they whined a bit and
tried to figure out what to do about me ("Have we been bad dogs?" "I
dunno.  He seems to think so."), I calmly walked up to the fence and
replaced the boards.  The dogs never bothered me again.

Note the lack of firearms in the above story.  I didn't own any at the
time.  Even if I had, using one in an urban environment would have been
iffy.  At worst, I might have been jailed.  At best, my relations with my
neighbors would have been irreparably strained.

Firearms are our _last_ line of defense.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Difference in Remington magazines ?
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:09:52 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


  I have a Remington 760 Gamemaster in .30/06 which is exhibiting a 
problem with a magazine. The magazine which came with it works fine.
I have a second (used) magazine which does not fit the rifle very
well. They both appear to be Remington magazines and the only difference
I can find is the stamping of the "30-06" on the side of the magazine.
The one which came originally with the rifle has a 30-06 inside a square
box like:
             _______
            | 30-06 |
             -------

 and the other magazine is marked like:

             _______
            < 30-06 >
             -------

  Is one of these magazines older than the other ?  Is the difference
in the symbol significant enough to explain why one fits better. I was
thinking maybe one was from a 7600 rifle although I always assumed they
were the same. Any comments or information is appreciated.



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: wrm@friskie.WPI.EDU (William Michalson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Slam-fire Translation
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:59 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

One of the main sources of slam-fires in the SKS that I've identified
is improper cleaning after using corosive ammunition.  Corrosive ammo
is very cheap (4 or 5 cents a round sometimes) and often not well labled
as to its corrosive nature.  People use this ammo, clean their guns
"properly" with Hoppe's or whatever, and think they're done.  The problem
is that corrosion begins inside the bolt face and eventually may freeze the
firing pin to the bolt, sometimes after firing (ie the firing pin is extended).
Next time the bolt is dropped, the gun fires.

Moral of the story: Either stay well away from corrosive ammo or give
the gun a good soap and hot water cleaning and drying (or a cleaning with
a product made specifically to remove corrosive deposits).

Bill
From: chan@seattleu.edu (Anthony K.B. Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bersa Thunder 9
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:51 GMT
Organization: Seattle University

I just saw an advertisment of a new gun from Bersa, called Thunder9 in Jan 
issue of Shotgun News. It's a pretty nice looking gun. From the picture
it looks like it has a full length slide rail and a take down latch(like the
one on Sig). According to the description on the advertisment it's frame is
alloy, both the frame and slide are milled not casted and also slide release
and safety/decocker are ambidextrous. It never mentioned the magazine capacity.

I just wonder if anyone out there has seen or handle this new Bersa? Any ideal
about the price and also the magazine capacity of the Thunder9? Lastly how is
the quality of Bersa in general?

Anthony
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:51 GMT


Bob DeBula writes:
#You know, I've always wondered *why* they developed the 9x21
#cartridge when the (virtually unused) 9mm Winchester Magnum
#already existed (I believe I've heard it is 9x22). I'm pretty
#sure 9mm Win. Mag. predates 9x21 by quite a bit.


The 9x21 was developed specifically for markets such as Italy, where
ownership of handguns such as 9mm Para is forbidden. In its stock
form it is identical in every respect to 9mm Para except the case
is 2mm longer. The OAL is the same, the bullet is just seated deeper.
Obviously handguns chambered for 9mm Para can easily be made in
9x21. This is also why the 7.65mm Para remains popular.

9x21 is made by Fiocchi, GeCo, Hirtenberger, and IMI. What I have heard
is that a shipment of IMI 9x21 got inadvertantly shipped to Action Arms,
and somehow some IPSC shooters heard of it and started to play around
with it to get a pseudo-Major-9 loading, since the longer case lets one
seat the bullet out further.

Somebody is also playing with a so-called "9x23", which is basically a
rimless .38 Super. Why they couldn't start with 9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard
(a rimless 9x23 cartridge) I don't know.

The 9mm Win Mag case is substantially longer than the 9x21; I don't have
the particulars at hand. It in turn is almost a case of reinventing the
ballistically similar 9mm Mauser Export.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1993Jan7.151946.16693@amc.com>, reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
# In article <1i9p52INNcbi@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
# #1)  How does a designer retard the rate of fire in a SMG?
# 
# By making the bolt heavier, or int the case of the 1928 Thompson, using
# some sort of bronze-wedge bolt retarding system.  I've never seen one of
# these stripped, and I'm told the mechanism may not really slow the
# firing rate.

William J. Helmer's _The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar_, (Toronto,
The Macmillan Co.: 1969) goes into considerable discussion of how
the wedge didn't really do anything, but it was such a neat design
and patent that Gen. Thompson wasn't willing to discard it, even
though it increased the manufacturing cost and complexity of the
gun.  This was one of the improvements made by the U.S. military
during the WW II production of the Thompson.

# Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp

Don't be fooled by the title of Helmer's book.  It is a fascinating
social history as well as technological history, and is a revision of
Helmer's M.A. (in History) thesis.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reality in movies
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:45 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <JGM.93Jan8153039@vegas.cs.brown.edu> jgm@cs.brown.edu (Jonathan Monsarrat) writes:
#Sometimes in television or movies (such as "The Terminator") I
#see someone getting thrown back by the force of a bullet hitting them.
#
#As far as I can guess from physics, bullets don't have enough mass to
#do this, even if their entire velocity was stopped against a kevlar vest.
#
#Am I wrong?

No, you are correct.  Only MEGA weapons blow people off their feet
flying through the air/through windows etc.  I first noticed that
"schtick" in the John Wayne movie "Rio Bravo".  It's becoming common
in TV/movies especially when a "magnum" or especially ugly long gun
is used.  (The enforcement of Newton's Laws is lax in the movie business.)
#
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 10 Jan 93 04:34:59 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <C0Iw9F.LK6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
#In article <1993Jan7.170226.3782@btree.uucp>, btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
##In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
###I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
###town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
###what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
###at near 90 degrees elevation.
##
##
##Terminal velocity for common bullets is in the neighborhood of 300 fps
##(about 200 mph).  This is quite sufficient to kill someone - just
##read the newspaper for places like Los Angeles on January 2.
#
#	I doubt it. The stories I read are that people are being killed
#	by bullets that are coming in their windows, not through the
#	roof, or out of the sky. Yes, I have read of deaths caused
#	by more or less vertically falling bullets, but not many.

I refer you to the Los Angeles Times for January 2, either 1989 or
1990 where the story of a teenage girl who died from a bullet which
entered her head at a near vertical angle was reported.  She was
sitting on her front porch.

Such deaths are rare but *they are completely avoidable*.  Since
a vertically falling bullet can injure or kill the bullet should
not be fired in an uncontrolled situation (such as in the middle
of the city).

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jan7.154421.15717@ncsu.edu> edhresko@hresko.eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO) writes:
#
#	The high volume of fire coupled with the relatively low rate of fire for
#individual barrels, along with the inherent reliability of a mechanically driven
#firearm...
#-- 
The many barrels do allow extended periods of fire without having 
to use liquid cooling systems.  I've seen .50 cal (& others) barrels
glow red in bright daylight after a "one belt" run.

All machine guns jam +/-
#
#
From: mtxinu!sybase!joe@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Joseph Weinstein)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: +P+ ammo for .38s: Police-only?
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:18:24 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.


Hi. 
At my local gunshop there is some .38 +P+ ammo, but they won't sell
it to non-police. Why would that be? If I were buying it for my .357
I could just substitute a hotter .357 round.
( I want the best stopper available for the .38. My wifes .357 will
be loaded with the same...)

thanx, joe
--
Joe Weinstein   joe@sybase.com   Sybase 1650 65th st.  Emeryville Ca 94608

NOT A DISCLAIMER!   THIS IS THE OFFICIAL OPINION OF AN IMPORTANT CORPORATE
                    ENTITY (NOT SYBASE).     FOR COMPLETE DETAILS SEND $10
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:15:48 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1993Jan9.054203.16008@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#	Anyone with a chrony have some figures for .38s in a 3" barrel?
#What kind of vel advantage is there over t2". 

I'm curious about this too. I've got the following data for my 2" Model 36;
I'd appreciate comparative data from anybody with a 3" .38:

158 grain PMC semi-wadcutter: 	733 fps
130 grain Win. USA FMJ ball: 	750 fps
110 grain Win. Silvertip: 	842 fps

These are all non +P loads. 

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mmx19 powder choice?
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:16 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <199301041836.AA16088@elf.wang.com> chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet) writes:
#....
#I have a 9mm and I'd like to shoot bowling pins.  What's a good load ?

What's the definition of a "good" load? I can imagine that a "good" load
for hunting may be a load that can knock down animals quickly. But, what 
does it mean when we talk about a good load for shooting bowling pins?

Many thanks.

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | IEEE Member, NRA Member, HAM Operator
 Communication Services Research  | U S WEST Life Safety Team
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Defend your life in STEREO - Beretta & SIG 
 E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: tford@convex.com (Tom Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Shooting straight up
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:56 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA

I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
at near 90 degrees elevation.

Happy (safe) new year,
Tom Ford
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:49:54 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1993Jan11.032627.10362@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
#	So I was wandering if 9mm is inherently more accurate than .40 ?
#	I do have a friend who believes .45acp is more accurate than 9mm,

While there are a lot of factors, such as recoil and the shooter's grip,
the simple answer is that any modern caliber in a decent gun will be more
accurate than most shooters.

The other day I was putting round after round of .40S&W FMJ into the
SAME HOLE in a target at some 7 yards, with a Glock model 22.  That
is quite unusual for a hand-held almost-stock gun (mine has stronger
magazine springs, which should have no effect on accuracy, and a
stainless steel recoil buffer spring guide rod instead of the stock
plastic one, which reduces recoil slightly).  I can only say that "I
was on a roll".  But it does provide evidence that .40S&W ammo is not
inherently inaccurate.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hi-Power mag safety
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9301052036.AA12895@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
#
#It's a bit late for Keith, but for anyone else who might be thinking
#of getting into IPSC and wants to shoot a Browning, their BDM has no
#magazine safety, and the magazine jump right out when you press the
#button.
#
#Otherwise, it shoots a lot like a Hi-Power.
#

No it doesn't.  A Hi-Power with some work done on the mag. release
and the trigger is a much superior action 9mm than a BDM.  (I've
not heard of anyone using a BDM for action shooting!)  Of course
even the Hi-Power is in the distinct minority in the 9mm/.38 super
IPSC type class.  Note:  almost all action shoot pistols are SA only.

BDW
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:26 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 7 Jan 93 23:59:30 GMT, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) said:

Jim> After our club meeting last night, one of our rifle shooters was asking
Jim> about progressives for reloading .308 and .30-06.  I would be interested
Jim> in recommendations for this, I thought the Lee Loadmaster or Dillon 650
Jim> (or 1050) could be adapted to feed cases and auto-indexed [2 of my
Jim> criterion ;-{)], but we couldn't come up with a way to automate trimming
Jim> his cases.  He said he had to do it every time (It sounded to me like he
Jim> might be loading them a leetle bit hot.).

I have reloaded my .308 cases about 6 times now and I can see no
growth in length whatsoever.  I don't shoot hot loads, only about 2500
fps on a 185gr bullet, so maybe that might be a factor.  In fact,
about the only caliber I see length growth in is my .223 in an AR15,
not in my .223 bolt gun.

-- 
Dion Hollenbeck                        Email: hollen@megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen@uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek.uucp!hollen

Xref: sparky rec.guns:19024 rec.hunting:2321
From: srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rinehart)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,rec.hunting
Subject: General info needed.
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:42 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: The Ohio State University


     Hi guys!

     I have two little questions that I would like some opinions on.

     #1. The general opinion seems to be that reloaded ammunition is more
         accurate than the factory stuff. I have several boxes of .222 ammo
         (Santa was good to me!). They are Remingtons and PMC brand. I have
         several boxes of old shell that I was going to get reloaded at some
         later date. What is the difference between the factory ammo and
         reloads and, for groundhog hunting, which one is better?

    #2.  The .222 rifle mentioned above is a Western Field model 712 (I think)
         and it looks identical to a Savage .222 I have seen. What size groups
         should I be getting at 100 yards? Is 100 yards the right range to be
         sighting in at?

         Note (Most of my hunting shots are between 100 & 200 yards)

                                                      Thanks !!!!!!!
_____________________________________________________________________
| If you love something,    |  Shawn L. Rinehart                    |
| Let it go,                |  srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   |
| If it doesn't come back,  |                                       |
| Hunt it down and kill it. |                                       |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 10 Jan 93 04:34:47 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

#158 grain PMC semi-wadcutter: 	733 fps
#130 grain Win. USA FMJ ball: 	750 fps
#110 grain Win. Silvertip: 	842 fps
#These are all non +P loads. 

	My last few WW catalogs only list 
95 gr and 125 gr +Ps for their ST loads.  I wonder if 110 gr ST
wasn't a big seller so they dropped it.   95 gr (1175 fps nominal)
is an interesting twist.  I guess that mild recoil for light guns 
is the goal, but it seems like a 95 gr hp at that vel wouldn't 
penetrate very well.   It couldn't be any worse than a Glasier,
I guess.

JD

(BTW, anybody chrony any of the 95 gr .38 +p stuff?)