Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:08:15 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gays and lesbians in the military

For the record, I am NOT against admitting gays and lesbians
in the military.  (I know this might disappoint many. :-)
I simply raised some potential problems and concerns.

If homosexuals showering with heterosexuals is not problematic,
then why men and women showering together is.  I have not seen
even a remotely satisfying answer to this except Julie's contention
that homosexuals are raised to control themselves (which *was*
remotely satisfying :-).

There IS a difference (as someone else mentioned) between showering
with 10 people knowing statistically that chances are that one of
them is homosexuals than showering with 9 heterosexual and 1 confirmed
homosexual.  I have never showered with a known homosexual (has Jamie?)
so don't ask me whether I have felt funny about it.  However, I am
just guessing that if I did I would feel the same way if I showered
with a woman.  If fact it is even worse.  It is more like a woman
showering with a man.  If I shower with a woman at least I am assured
that I can answer her lust with my lust but with a homosexual he
can lust for me and I can't for him.  This would put me (I think)
in an even more uneven psychological situation.

Now answering the posts.

From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET

>       While it may be true that if the ban is lifted, more gays
> would enter the military, there are thousands already serving.
> I would be interested to know if there have been any *incidents*
> involving homosexuals in military bathroom facilities in the past.

The question is one of privacy not crimes or incidents.

>       My thought here is that since homosexuals are no more
> sexually active on the average than heterosexuals, and there
> haven't been problems in the past, why the concern?

The concerns that I brought up did NOT rely on homosexuals being
more active than heterosexuals.  In fact if homosexuals are as
active as heterosexuals, THAT by itself bothers me.  :-)


> ........  THe problem, as was correctly pointed out earlier
> by someone else on the list, lies with the people who fear
> homosexuals - not with geys and lesbians.

I have no fear of homosexuals as I have no fear of women.  Meanwhile
I don't want to take showers with either group (ok a half lie :-).

It would be interesting if a homosexual came out and said that s/he
does not feel comfortable to take group showers with other
homosexuals.  In fact the reverse is also correct.  If most
homosexuals don't (honestly) mind taking showers together,
then that is something for me to think about.


From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>

> KAT has raised an interesting theoretical point.
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^
Ordinary people might take the above as a complement.  Believe
me it is not.  :-)

> It has never bothered me, even remotely, that it's quite possible that
> the guy standing next to me in the showers at the basketball court is
> gay.

Well, if this is the standard of proof and argument, then let's say
it bothers me.  Now does your not being bothered and my being bothered
cancel each other?  What about other people?

> Do JasonZ and KAT worry about this sort of thing a lot?

Not KAT, but JasonZ does.  :-)

From:         "Jonathan Fisher" <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>

> That's an interesting argument, but can we look at the "problem" another way?

> I mean, OK, so what, there are some gay people in the military now.  They
> no doubt LOOK at their fellow man/woman/soldier NOW.  What's the big deal?
> Is anything going to change once the rules of the military change to allow
> openly gay people in the military, NO.  The issue, KAT, is CONDUCT.  Do
> these gay people do anything obscene?

And yes, as someone else mentioned, something WILL be changed.  Now
heterosexuals have to take showers with people who are for sure
homosexuals no just with people who *might* be homosexuals.

> Look, here's the way that I look at, I am very heterosexual.  I look at women
>all the time.  If I was on a long cruise and showered with women, I would like
> it.  So what?  I wouldn't touch any of them.  Especially if, to draw the
> parallel closer, they looked at me with disgust.  I certainly wouldn't do
> anything obscene.

Forget about POLITICS and this discussion.  Can you give me the name
of this cruise.   :-)

> OK, how about this argument.  We have 14 NATO allies.  Of those 14, 12 allow
> openly gay people in the military.  Their morale isn't breaking down.  In
> fact you never hear anything about it, because IT'S NO BIG DEAL.

I didn't say anything about morals.  I only brought up the privacy
concerns.

> Get over it.

OK, I am trying.

> Jonathan

--KAT
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