HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:52:35 GMT

In article <LEE.92Apr7155749@meercat.wang.com>, lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
  
> What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
> anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.  Sure, they're great rescue
> devices if you're on a sinking steamship (sometimes even in a
> river---but what was the steamship doing there?), but they don't play
> well, they're hard to hit eddies with and hard to turn, people keep
> falling out, you either get swiped in the head with oar handles or
> someone drops their paddle, and a good hard boater can run anything
> that a raft can (okay, we'll cheat a bit on the biggest holes, but
> make up for it in precision)....

You can trade off rowing and drinking beer.  

You can carry a large cooler full of steaks and veggies, 5 cases of beer, 
rocket boxes of candy and cookies, a human waste disposal system (plus
all the nasty byproducts), a stove and two propane jugs, tents, 
mattresses (and I ain't talking Thermarests here), sleeping bags, 
and clothes, and still have room for climbing gear and a volleyball.

They're not really hard to turn -- pivots are fast.  You just have to
start your maneuver 20 yards before you need it...

Falling out of a raft can be a lot of fun.  

In an oar boat, a passenger can stand on the passenger seat/bench/thwart
and surf by holding on to a strap attatched to the bow.  Kind of like
a cross between waterskiing and bronco riding.  Good for non-technical
rapids with mondo waves (such as Hermit in the GC).  This is how I had
fun falling out of a raft once;  the raft bucked enough to catapult me
forward into a somersault worthy of Greg Louganis. 

Relative novices can run moderate rapids with an experienced boatman
shouting advice.  The terror factor is a bit lower, maybe because when
you're bigger, the waves seem smaller.  I'm willing to do a lot harder
water in a raft than in a kayak. (Of course, I've rowed a raft a lot
more than I have paddled a kayak.  I can't roll either with any degree
of consistency, but definitely the raft is harder to roll.:-)

If you're desperate and can't find a camp, you can sleep on a raft.

Flat water isn't as miserable, but upriver wind is worse.  Let's face
it, how many rivers don't have *any* flat water?  You want to kayak
3 days of flat water to get to Cataract Canyon, be my guest.

You can change position whenever you want to, almost.  

You can take someone with you who's never been on a river trip.  

Some people ride motorcycles and some people drive motorhomes.  Some
people do both, depending on the terrain.  

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DOD#009 | Hello, I am a rocket scientist, are there any
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | more cajun-flavored pork rinds?
      \_______________________|______________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Subject: Re: Thoreau's Portage Whitewater Slalom
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Distribution: ne
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:05:14

In article <72949@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:

   This is an A/B race sanctioned by the ACA.  It will be held Saturday,
   April 11 on the Concord River at Lowell, Massachusetts.  Classes
   include C-1, C-1W, K-1W, K-1s, C-2, C-2W, and C-2M.  I'm under the
   impression that this race is held in class III/IV water, but I'm
   not familiar with the river.

   Further info, directions, entry forms, etc.: Lowell Parks and
   Conservation Trust, PO Box 7162, Lowell, MA 01852; ph# (508) 459-9629.
   Preregistration (due 4/8) is $10; da-of-race registration is $15.

The "Thoreau's Portage" slalom indeed has a III-IV section which I
believe is called "Wammiset Falls", with two big but not too hungry
holes which we locals refer to as "Twisted Sister" and "Rock 'n Roll".
The rest of the course is class II.  It's more threatening than most
amateur slaloms I 've seen around here, but not hazardous (swimmers
flush right through the holes pretty quickly), though one experienced
racer did pin briefly and damage her boat on the big rock guarding RnR
during practice sessions.  Bruce Lessels (sp?)  set the course last
year, and he placed one upstream gate so that one had to run through
TS to get to the gate quickly, and a downstream gate right in the
sticky part of RnR, with an upstream just below and to river right to
encourage racers to turn early and get surfed.  I safety boated part
of the day (don't have a race boat, or would have been tempted to give
it a shot), and retrieved quite a few paddles from below RnR.  Edgy
slalom boats are clearly not good sidesurfing machines, and many
racers turned early, windowshaded, and bailed out.  It made some very
good paddlers look rather shaky.  Great fun!
  I'd particularly recommend this race for spectators, since it's
only a short drive from Boston (right in the city of Lowell) and
the action is very concentrated at the major drop.
--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
     (Boston and New Hampshire AMC, and Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Columbia University Paddlers
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:47:09 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Distribution: ny
Organization: Columbia University


	This is pretty straightforward, eh? If there are any CU paddlers
	out there who don't know about the Kayak Club, drop me an e-mail 
	line, we're always looking for some new members.

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|             o /            ||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ <====<\/====> ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: No Defense of Motors, was Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:52:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <10APR199213302176@jetson.uh.edu> rcte4@jetson.uh.edu (Carpenter, Scot M.) writes:
>
>      Yeah, maybe I was getting carried away....it did turn from a defense
>of RAFTS into a defense of outboards.....
>      I have heard of oar boat outfitters doing trips for handicapped (as in
>wheelchairs) recently, and the physical requirements on an oar boat for 
>passengers aren't really any greater.

The lurking danger is that by trying to be "fair" to everybody, we are
being fair to nobody.  If you can't get through the canyon without a motor,
perhaps you just shouldn't see the canyon.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: macready@scs.carleton.ca (bill macready)
Subject: address info?
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:17:16 GMT

A week or so ago there were a couple of posts of addresses for kayak kits
and plans. One post gave one source as:
	Denis Davis
	9 Great Burrow Street
	Northam
	BIDEFORD
	Devon, EX39 1TB
	England
While the other was:
	Dennis Davis
	38 Redditch Road
	Bromsgrove, Worchester
	B60 4JN
	England.
Does anyone know which one is more up to date? Thanks for any help!

Bill Macready
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Any Other Kayak Reviews?
Date: 12 Apr 92 04:43:21 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Apr10.222819.18064@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> mms7r@ascus.micr.Virginia.EDU (M. Mitchell Smith) writes:
>Thanks to Sebastian C. Sears, Chris Webster, Lee Story, and Todd Leigh
 ^^^^^^^^^

	What a friendly newsgroup! What a relief :-)

	(You wouldn't find this kind of gratitude on rec.motorcycles...)

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Date: 17 Apr 92 11:45:42 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <HUDSON.92Apr16182834@yough.cs.umass.edu> hudson@cs.umass.edu writes:
>This idea that a good strong brace has some value in getting you out of a
>tight spot seems silly. 

Well, no, it doesn't get you *out* of a tight spot; it just keeps you
upright so that you can breath and have a few extra seconds in order to
figure out what to do next.  In addition, if you develop a strong enough
brace, rolls (like to C-to-C) become much easier.

>In addition, for beginners, bracing seems to be
>the most dangerous stroke when it comes to shoulder problems. 

Sure, if they learn to high brace; but the low brace is much safer.  See
William Nealy's "Kayak" (in the appendix, I believe) for a look at the
high/low brace debate.
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Date: 8 Apr 92 10:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Distribution: na
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

[stuff deleted]
>Kayakers and rafters usually take a different pace, so are best kept
>separate.  But kayakers sometimes need rafters to carry gear, whereas
>rafters never really need kayakers.

   NOT! I watched a reenactment of a white water raft trip where the
raft overturned and the kayakers rescued the people who had been in
the raft. I would imagine that these people would wholeheartedly disagree.

[rest of post deleted]
From: toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com (DQ582 Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: New Corsica
Organization: trunking_fixed
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 15:24:02 GMT
Summary: Corsica S review: hole surfer extraordinaire, not a slalom boat
Keywords: Corsica

I don't know about a Corsica (bigger boat, probably slower turner), and
from what I've heard and seen of the Matrix, it's a more stable (less edge)
boat than either the Corsica or the Corsica S, so it probably suffers a
little in the performance catagory.

I do know the Corsica S though.  It is short, decent amount of rocker, and
it sidesurfs like mad.  Pretty good front surfer too.  Don't expect to
do slalom racing in it, it's pretty slow in a straight line, but it catches
eddies pretty well, maybe because the shorter length makes it even easier
to turn than a standard Corsica.

I watched a friend, Eric Sprenne, side surfing it with his hands in the
hole below Sullivan's falls on section IV of the Wolf.  He didn't even
come out of the hole to get 360's.  Eric's a really good boater.

My opinion (for what it is worth) is that the only reason to get a Corsica
instead of the Corsica S is if you can't fit in the smaller boat.

Of course, there are probably other advantages to the Corsica that I'm not
familiar with since I haven't paddled one myself.

With the new Proline outfitting, the Corsica boats are now up to the 
standard that Infinity and Dagger have set in outfitting their boats, so 
try it, and decide for yourself.

Incidentally, I weigh 160 lbs.  My friend Eric weighs in around 200.

Have fun.

-- 
Todd Leigh                Motorola Inc.      Opinions expressed here are
toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com    Schaumburg, IL     not those of "THE MANAGEMENT"
Facts all come with point of view. Facts don't do what I want them to.
                                           - Talking Heads
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: oliver@ssd.kodak.com (Jason Oliver)
Subject: Sources of Used/Demo boats
Originator: oliver@blanca
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 16:29:57 GMT

Does anybody out there know of a place that sells used/demo
boats at resonable prices?  Individual people or stores are fine, I don't
care which.  This also goes to any of you who wish to sell a boat.
The boats that I am looking for are any of the following:
1) Chinook
2) Sea Runner
3) Sea Lion 

Options such as the rudders and expedition kits are not needed but are 
preferred. Send any information to me directly, as I doubt that this is
of general interest for the rest of this group.  Thank you all very much.

Jason R. Oliver
oliver@ssd.kodak.com
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Rafting
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:05:52 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <167C4BB94.M14661@mwvm.mitre.org> M14661@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
	[some stuff fell out of the post]
>Also, losing a paddle is no more likely than it is for a kayaker or C-boater.
>Why would it be?  It's true that lots of bozos raft, since you can run harder
>water with less skill, but that doesn't make it intrinsically easier to lose
>a paddle. Similarly, a group of rafters who know what they're doing can really
>make a raft perform.  It spins incredibly well, although you can't get it
>to accelerate well.  For me, rafts are great fun, but I prefer other craft
>if I'm able to paddle the river in one.  Still, rafts are fun, even then.

	Two very good points here. First of all, more bozos raft because it's
	easier, so more of them fall out, and lose paddles, and go "Whee" when
	they go over drops. So you can't judge people who really are "rafters"
	just by looking at people  who go rafting.

	The other point is that, yes, with a good crew you can do some awesome
	shit in rafts. I have been a raft guide the last two summers, and,
	while I spent most of my time running tourons (tourists + morons) I
	did a few good runs with all guides paddling and believe me, you can
	go anywhere you want if you have a good crew. Running some good class
	IV near Stanley in a 14 foot Avon (self-bailing) we cranked (even got
	it to surf in one good wave :-)). We even ran the South Fork of the 
	Payette Canyon run in a boat I wouldn't have gotten into in a swimming
	pool if I could have avoided it: about 12 feet long, one thwart was 
	loose, it leaked, and it wasn't a self bailer. Still, we ran the whole
	run (well, not Big Falls, but...:-)) and never had any trouble because
	we had good paddlers.

	Judging rafters on the people you see on their first raft trip is like
	going to a beginner's kayaking clinic and assuming all kayakers look
	like that :-(.

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

In rec.boats.paddle, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:

> So I'm wondering.  Why do people use canoes for whitewater?  On 
> the face, it seems pretty silly.  The canoe is an excellent craft
> for paddling across flatwater.  Its long hull design provides good
> tracking and excellent speed.  It holds lots of camping gear, and
> is easily portaged.  For chains of lakes nothing is better.
>
........stuff delete
> 
> in whitewater?  If challenge is the most important reason, why not
> just run harder whitewater?  Please do not construe this as a flame;
                  ^^^^^^^^^
                  because you can die!
> I am sincerely curious.

Bill,
I thought you were joking at first.
As someone who is mostly a kayaker, I have just one question:
Why would anyone kayak when a raft or an inflatable kayak is so much easier?
(apply above arguemnts to the question)
And especially, why would anyone squirt boat?  They're small, uncofortable,
and more dangerous than a kayak (hey, i squirt boat too).

I used to do a fair amount of whitwater canoeing. It is pretty damn fun,
especially in a tandom canoe.  Always a blast to sink the front guy while
your surfing.

So the basic answer is: because it is different.  with canoeing (or squirt
boating) a river takes on a whole new dimension.  new play spots open and close.
new hazards appear and disappear.  new lines become runabble/unrunabble.

Now the real question is:  Why would anyone paddle a C2?
                           (are you reading this reece?
                            remember: half the paddle, half the man!)

andy "squirt till you puke" brown
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: stamer@fang.att.com (Greg Stamer)
Subject: Re: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 15:19:36 GMT

>This idea that a good strong brace has some value in getting you out of a
>tight spot seems silly. 

A sculling brace (moving the blade back and forth with the leading edge
high - like spreading icing on a cake) can be momentarily turned into a
forward or reverse stroke by simply changing the angle of the paddle blade.
I have used this technique to move around in and exit small holes.
This technique is perfect for (ocean) surfing sideways when you need to
move forwards or backwards to avoid obstacles while still bracing into
the wave.
                                                \   O
                                       \__________\/ )__________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg Stamer          Florida Sea Kayaking Association / Coconut Kayakers
stamer@fang.att.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: nordbo@cernvax.cern.ch (stephan nordbo)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: questions
Keywords: Grand Canyon kayak raft
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:22:39 GMT
Organization: CERN, Geneva, Switzerland

Concerning one of your questions (about northern Norway), I'm a
norwegian paddler (kayak) and I guess I'm the one who is most
likely to give you information although I've never been
kayaking further north than Trondheim (middle of Norway). What
I know about the rivers further north is they are hard to access.
There are few roads up there, and to carry your kayak and equiptment
might be a _very_ tough job.

Of course, there are some rivers more accesible, but these are easier
rivers (not that much fun) _and_ (most important) these are rivers
used for fishing. According to norwegian law, you are allowed to
kayak these rivers (nobody owns the water) as you are allowed to camp
anywhere you want as long as you keep clear of houses and agricultural
area, but the guys along the rivers is not always to happy with
kayakers splashing around ......

I would recommend you to go to the middle part of Norway, to the river
Driva. It has one of the most astonishing gorges in Norway (and Europe),
and offers great kayaking, mostly grade IV but you have to pass a grade
V part which can be _very_ powerful.....

There is also lots of climbing possibilities in the area.

If anybody wants more information about kayaking in Norway, post
or mail me. We are only ~40 kayakers in Norway (don't ask me why,
but climate might be one answer), and as far as I know, I'm the only
one on the net. There might also be some Germans who have been in Norway,
in the summer, there are more germans there than norwegians.

Ciao

Stephan        o   o
		 |
	       \___/
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: bray@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Mike Bray)
Subject: Where to learn kayaking in Champaign?
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana,  IL
Distribution: il
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:19:12 GMT

Hi.  I'm looking for some way of learning the basics of kayaking
before heading to some real whitewater out West this summer.
Is there any way to rent/borrow a kayak for some practice in a 
swimming pool?

Thanks,
Mike Bray  bray@cs.uiuc.edu 217-244-4612
From: neff@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Neff)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Followup-To: neff@diva.berkeley.edu
Date: 7 Apr 1992 17:45:53 GMT
Organization: /etc/organizaton
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu
Summary: Comfort, Comfort

Why Canoes in Whitewater???

I did try a kayak when I was first starting out, and found that
I could not sit in it for more than 15 minutes without extreme
discomfort. ("Let me out of this thing" became my only coherent
thought.)  I find open canoes much more comfortable, perhaps
because I am tall and have long legs.  The kneeling position
is very comfortable, especially if you put some padding into the
boat.  Also, without a spray skirt, you can move around and 
change your position on stretches of flat water.  I briefly 
have been in a C1, but also found that a bit confining.  
(basically, my knees do not bend that much.)

Other advantages:
     You can carry more stuff, especially in a tandem.  

     Canoeing is less dangerous, normalized for paddling
     difficulty.  By this I mean that a solid whitewater 
     kayaker considers running class IV and V water, while
     an equivalently skilled boater in a canoe will have
     the same difficulty running class III and an occasional IV.
     This means that you can have the thrill of boating 
     difficult stretches, without the danger level found in 
     class IV - V.  (This is how my wife ended up canoeing).

I agree, an open canoe is not the ideal whitewater boat, which is 
why very few boats are found above class III.

-- Robert
From: mikeq@saab.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:25:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

The biggest problem with whitewater canoeing is wind, especially upstream
winds, which are a definite on northwest rivers. Nothing like getting
blown off line just as you drop into a rocky class 4.

I went back to kayaks.

Mike
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Cano
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:40:24 GMT
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO

ilana@ncar.ucar.edu writes:
> Hey Chris, don't badmouth rafts or we won't carry your gear anymore. :-)

I wasn't badmouthing them.  I just stated where I didn't want to be. ;-)

> PS any news on that Selway permit?

I think the knucklehead sent it back.  But I can try and get the cancellation
for that date.

ddennis@isis.cs.du.edu writes:
> If you folks run Gore, email me... a few of us are running it till it
> gets over 1500... Cross Mountain too.  Have a few kayakers, could
> always use more!

Actually I was waiting for Gore to get over 1500.  'Tis the season to
ski fourteeners.

--Chris