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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:47:28 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Grisham
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list LITERARY <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Mka, as in everything else, people's tastes are different.  This summer I
read all three of Grisham's novels, in reverse chronological order. First
I read _The Pelican Brief_, then _The Firm_, and finally his first nove _A
Time to Kill_.  It was very obvious to me that his first novel *was* a
first novel, but I read it that way. I was recovering from some very major
surgery and those books kept my mind off me and on what was going on in
the books.  I would not call him a great writer, and agree with you that
his plots (and descriptions) need tightening up. Perhaps that will come
with experience, perhaps not.

Valentine, I was interested in the explanation of your reading process. I
would imagine we all vary our speed and method of reading depending on the
material we are reading and the purpose.  The Grisham novels mentioned
above were read quickly, the re-read of Fraser's _Mary Queen of Scots_
that I am currently engaged in is going more slowly.

Doris Smith
dorisann@tenet.edu
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Posted-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 17:13:17 EDT
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:13:17 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      reading
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	I'm very interested in the quite remarkable reading skills of so many
readers. Years ago I started a speed-reading course, but it turned out to be
a fraud. The comprehension tests that indicated you had absorbed the material
could be passed quite easily without reading the selection, as I demonstrated
in order to get my money back.
	Anyway, I guess I read at average speed, and as you have said, faster
depending on the book. But those of you who are exceptionally fast, I'm
wondering if you are aware of your eyes' movement across the page. How many
timu'P%F'mes (?) does your eye stop in each line, or do you take in a whole line
 at a
time? Do you intentionally move quickly, or does it happen without effort?

Michael B.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:28:45 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Kundera

>Book of Laughter and Forgetting seemed to me his best book, and Art of the
>Novel (criticism) next, followed by some of the other novels. He happily
>mixes short essays (for lack of a better word) with his character develop-
>ment. They are interesting in themselves, don't interfere with the illusion
>of reality of the characters, and if he hadn't been willing to break the
>rules, it never would have happened. The conventional wisdom of just about
>everyone would have been to delete all non-story material.

I guess I've read his books in a fortunate order; I've found
each one I've read better than the last.

  Life is Elsewhere
  The Joke
  The Farewell Party
  The Book of Laughter and Forgetting

(_The Book of Laughter and Forgetting_ being my favorite, and
the one most recently read.)

I also had the misfortune of seeing all of "The Unbearable Movie."

I have a question, though, about _The Book of Laughter and Forgetting_.
There are a couple of instances of characters floating off in laughing
rings, and I admit that the significance of this escapes me.  In one
instance, it is a poet who has betrayed his fellow, and left him to
die.  In another, it is the two girls struggling with Ionesco's (sp?)
"The Rhinoceros," who do the same with their teacher to escape their
tormenters.  The situations seem, on one level, to be contrasting
situations.  In the first case, victimizers rise up in laughter, and
in the second case it is the victims.  The similarity seems to be
that they both escape reality through laughter, I guess.  The girls
escape their tormenters, the poet escapes - what, self-knowledge, I
guess; an understanding of what he has done or has allowed to happen.
Any thoughts on this?

Incidentally, I thought the discussion on writing - on "graphomania" -
was particularly interesting.  Certainly, I have suffered from the urge
to photocopy my correspondence.  (And I can't bear to dispose of my
logs of electronic mail.  Gigabytes of material I may never look at
again, stored for the benefit of...posterity, I suppose.  I mean,
because *my* thoughts are really unique.  Really.  Not like Bibi.  ;-)

I also liked his discussion about music, but don't really agree
with him.  Without going into detail about my own (unique, Really! ;-)
ideas on music - I don't believe that the rules or structure of
music (like serialism or twelve-tone constructions) are responsible
for destroying the aesthetic value of music.  Rather, I think that
the rules or structure of music can be largely arbitrary, so long
as they are recognized.  Creating forms from the conventions is the
job of the artist - and without form, without structure, there can
be no music.  But this conversation, too, is probably best reserved
for another time on another list.  (The entropy of music.)

                                   -Tim
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:13:00 EST
From:         LESST5@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Ursula Le Guin

Le Guin is her married name, and I think she keeps the K around for the
sake of her parents,the Kroebers(?) who were semi-famous anthropologists
at Berkeley.
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:01:23 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Re[2]: poetasters

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: finkelst@siam.org

FG>  Of course, I'm interested. Gee, I feel almost guilty --
FG> me being the worm-can-opener and all.


Here's what I'd like to see:

  (1)  Everybody interested in participating in a poetry
       list just Email the address below and say so.  That
       will establish the first half of the mechanical
       necessity - you can send private mail.

  (2)  I will respond to you in the same manner.  This will
       prove the second prerequisite - you have an address I
       can reach.

When there are ten of us, there are enough to let the games
begin, and it will be done quite rapidly.  In my experience,
the trouble is always with participation.  (We have a local
moribund group, as I've mentioned.)  Everybody finds they
have something pending elsewhere, maybe a library book due
or socks to match, and I'm left here with a relic of a good
idea occupying my machine.

First, sign up.  Right now, I have one.  Need the pioneers of
this notion to jump onboard.  No salesperson will call.  Nothing
else to buy.  Satisfaction guaranteed.  Operators are as I say
standing by....


Thanks,

-Uncle Timmie's Poetry Hour
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Posted-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 18:05:12 EDT
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 18:05:12 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      reading
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	When I used to read novels, I went left to right, with eyes
bump-jumping at various points on the line. I'd never mange going down
the middle. It sounds like a wonderful aptitude. You seem to gauge the
speed to the type of material to make sure you don't lose the essentials.
In novels, can you appreciate sentence structures and rhythms in this
way? In what way or form does that register? Or, if you think too much
analysis might cause a problem, don't worry about it.
	Nowadays, back in school, I take about fifteen minutes a page, and
often have to read sentences and paragraphs four or five times to compre-
hend. It seems like years since I've given myself the luxury of prose that
reads easily. Michael B.
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:07:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Vonnegut

Greg, I still don't like Vonnegut even though I agree with many of your
comments about him.  Yes, his books only use SF in the background; yes, they
are not plot-driven; yes, he is quite an "experimental" writer; and yes, he
aims at providing insight into the human condition.  To me, though, he
never succeeds.  His "experimental" writing deserves to be in quotation marks.
This is what I meant by self-indulgence: a lot of his writing seems to be
clever for the sake of being clever, experimental for the sake of experiment-
ing.  There isn't a sense of coherence: the style doesn't match the content.
I always had the sense of the author reading over my shoulder:  "Look, isn't
this a neat phrase?  See what I can do?  Now watch what I'm going to do next!"
        Another problem I have with him are his protagonists.  I'll forgive a
lot if there are good characters, and I don't think anyone has ever said
Vonnegut's characters were believable.  They're just there to be pushed
around, to wade around in the hip-deep prose he dumps on them.  I never once
cared what happened to any of them.  This may be reading too much into him,
but I think he could do much better and he just couldn't be bothered.  "Why
should I worry about motivation?  I'm *experimental*, I'm above that."  Or
maybe he just doesn't care about his characters: there seems to be a real
sense of contempt for them, as well as for the rest of humanity.
        I guess my point is, Vonnegut isn't *bad*, he's good enough that I
think he could, and should, do much better; and he isn't better because of
laziness, lack of self-criticism, and contempt for his audience.  For this
reason he's worse than a merely bad writer.
        This isn't a fair comparison, I know, but my yardstick is Samuel
Beckett, who managed to be experimental (no quotation marks), provide insight
into the human condition, and still made his characters astonishingly real
and even kept his sense of humour.  I don't expect another Beckett; but Vonne-
gut not only isn't in the same ballpark, he isn't even playing the same game.

Ian
From: FSCLL@ALASKA.BITNET (the First and Only Nude Vaxer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: hello?
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:49:35 GMT
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How did the person who is clamoring for discussion manage to
read Kundera, Camus, Thurber, and Marquez in ONE week?

I do my best to gfet to the conversations here on the net, but after
working and schooling and watching my baby there is little time
for me to read (andI am a proficient speedreader, though that is no way to
approach a good book....)

Want to read som books for me? I have them sitting here waiting..

chris
poet and pauper

how's that for conversation?  :)
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:29:45 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: hello?

Yes, they were all read in one week.

Yes, I thought a list of books might
inspire a list member to post on the
books instead of the compiler of the
list.

                 -Tim
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:54:24 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Science Fiction
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Date:       Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:56:00 EDT
> From:       IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>

> There was a SF writer (Maybe Robert Siverberg) who coined the axiom: 99% of
> science fiction is crap ...

Might have been Theodore Sturgeon.  Whom I haven't read for years,
but used to be very impressed with.  Actually, what he might have
said is that 99% of _anything_ is crap.
                                    --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:25:01 GMT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: poetry group

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: gs0383%springb.bitnet@siucvmb.siu.e

GE> Can someone tell me how you reply personally and not to the
GE> entire group?

First, get an address!  The one you have looks like this:


 GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU (Melanie Willis)

By my pathfinder, you are located in a one-room coldwater
walkup above a laudromat just off a certain campus.
The problem is the laundromat is always closed.  That's
why my mail to you just bounced.


When you hit [R] from whatever program you are in when you
read all this, the reply will go to the list.  You have to
mail directly to the first FROM: line in the header, or to
the Internet address included in the sig file, which is a
compilation of totally useless information after an article
which may or may not contain a workable address.

Hope this helps.  Or, at least, does no harm.

-Tim
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:11:36 EDT
From:         Jackie Vanwilligen <JVANW01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: hello?

This summer I read The Children by E. Wharton.  It is set in the Europe of the
twenties and the main characters are bed hopping rich people.  The main charact
er, a startling real today kind of man, tries to look after the children of his
 friends.  He falls in love with a wonderful woman and with the oldest daughter
I guess Woody allen's troubles /crimes have brought it back to me.
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 07:01:50 PDT
From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      On reading as a process

VT> A mentor once told me that anything that can be *speed-read*
VT> is not worth reading.


Reminds me of the old Lampoon bit about Evelyn Wood branching
out into a new franchise called Evelyn Food's Dynamic Eating
which could promise a nine-course meal complete in three
minutes.  And then the imagination drifts into other
areas of human intercourse, so to speak, and decides
there are some matters to be processed and some to be
savored, right enough...

Remember also the Woody Allen (wonder if the old sign-
post "the earlier, funnier Woody" will have to be re-
set now?) comment:  "I just read _War and Peace_ in
seven minutes.  It's about Russia."
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Posted-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 16:44:17 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:44:17 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      younger days
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

In my reading days, I have done as much, I'll have you know. Gone so gray.

Book of Laughter and Forgetting seemed to me his best book, and Art of the
Novel (criticism) next, followed by some of the other novels. He happily
mixes short essays (for lack of a better word) with his character develop-
ment. They are interesting in themselves, don't interfere with the illusion
of reality of the characters, and if he hadn't been willing to break the
rules, it never would have happened. The conventional wisdom of just about
everyone would have been to delete all non-story material.
	Unbearable Lightness of Being also had some philosophical connections
to a number of people. That lightness is related to what Kerkegaard called
too much possibility, one of the forms of despair. What exactly is, it,
though, that makes Kundera's work such a pleasure. I would have liked it
even without the interpolations of "thought." I'll get to the next book in
a minute.
	My trouble when I used to read that many novels was that my poor
memory resulted in the new book performing a partial erasure of the book
I had just finished reading--so in a long series, that would mean I would
remain very little overall. Fascinating. Mike.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:16:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      a virtual cigar for chris and Galen!

Congratulations!  Were you nude vaxing when the child was born?

mm
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:30:00 EST
From:         LESST5@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Science Fiction

I'm pretty sure it was Theodore Sturgeon

Laura S.
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:59:56 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Poetry list - the story continues...

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: poets

I have the following addresses thus far of well-whishing
travelers in starting out on the trail of a Poetry List:

helfrich@siam.org.
saspdm@mvs.sas.com
livewell@siam.org
finkelst@SIAM.ORG (SIF)
kruchio@epas.utoronto.ca
mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU (MM)


Still 40% short of our goal, Campers!  Want you take a second
and send in your voluntary subscription to Uncle Timmie at

       tcbowden@clovis.felton.ca.us

so we may come online with the list?  I will publish the
address of the list once it is a reality.


Don't be bashful, now.

-Uncle Timmie
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:58:28 EDT
From:         "Paul G. Beidler" <pgb3@LEHIGH.EDU>
Subject:      24,000 words
Comments: To: English@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu,
              HUMGRAD@newcastle.ac.uk

Do any of you have any suggestions for where to publish an essay of 24,000
words (90 pages) on James and Derrida?  I could break it up into pieces but it
works so well as a whole that I would like to keep it this way if possible.
Most of the monograph series I have looked at have 40,000 or 50,000 word
minimum requirements--know of any that do not?  Know of any journals that do
things my size?

                                                Paul
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:45:55 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Can you Camus?

The now-controversial Woody Allen says to this point, somewhere: "It is not
enough to succeed. One's friends must also fail."
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Posted-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 23:11:03 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:11:03 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Vonnegut
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

When he gave a talk in Philadelphia, he was rambling, sometimes funny, sometimes
savage about the Republicans. What was strange was that in the midst of this
intense left-wing raging was all kinds of paranoia about the Japanese buying
the country. I thought geez, sounds like old pops the Republican. I didn't
get a close enough look to be able to guage the degree of smoking damage,
which I believe, no doubt erroneously, that I can read in a face. No doubt
one of the most irrelevant messages in weeks. Mike.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
From: jerrett@iastate.edu (Gregory A Jerrett)
Subject: Science Fiction
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:56:30 GMT

Chris, while crticizing SF isn't my forte the main reasons as I have 
been privy to them (through one professor in particular who was a hard core
fan and believed that SF was the only really dcreative fictiom, yeah right)
are that the industry publishes every piece of crap it gets its hands on,
contents and package aimed at attractinging pubescent boys.  Rarely is
a work of SF energetic enough to explore the human condition or eternal a
questions.  It temds to ber self-absorbed, plot-driven and poorly written.
This is because Sf sells more than almost any other genre, they crank it out
and readers keep buying it because they aren't particulr and a good idea
is enough to keep them interested.  Personally I can't remember the lasst
time I heard a fan talk about a book being written well.  It is usually a matter
of a story being a great concept, some psuedo scientific theory that a writer
latches on to strictly for that reason.  I think that if there is a disdain
for science fiction as a genre this is why.  These problems are recognized
by people in the industry and it is up to the people in the genre to fix it.
Until they do, it isnot the responsibility of mainstream academia to accept
SF.
As for the assertion that SF is totally dismissed, that is not true. Many SF
Novels and authors are studied.  I just finished a mainstream course on
women writers in which we read The Handmaid's Tail by Margeret Atwood, I have 
read Doris Lessing, Ursula K. Le Guin, 1984, Brave New World and a critical artical on Supreman (yes the comic book not the ubermensch)by Umberto Eco.  SF is represented in academic circles in high enough proportions. Isaac Asimov is not studied in mainstream courses nor will he be for a number of good reasons but
mainly because there isn't anything to talk about.  Do you really expect a grad level class in fiction to set arpound talking about how cool the foundation
tri.logy is?  SF fans won't be satisfied with their treatment because thy
want the stories that they like to be considered good regardless of set standards. They seem to think that there is an unfounded bias against them, some kind of prejudice which unfairly keeps them from being heard.  the truth of the matter ois that if there was something to., look at it would be looked at. Academics would swoop down on SF to be the first to do something new and useful, snobery wouldn't keep them from it.
Greg Jerrett


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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:21:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: AS Byatt

My goodness, is Angela Carter dead?

mm