From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: is it necessary to hate?
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 21:41:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.154307.16307@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.225648.9405@iscsvax.uni.edu> mccall3080@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:

>>      I somehow thought that the majority of atheists would be the same way,
>>but I see many people who find it necessary to go out of their way to bash
>>people with religions.  Why is it necessary to do that?  I know that it gets
>>annoying when people with religions won't leave you alone and it is easy to
>>retaliate, but it is not doing you or other atheist any good.  You are just
>>proving to people with religion how irrational and full of anger you really
>>are.

Irrational?  No.  Full of anger?  Yes, much of the time.  Nothing wrong
with anger as long as you direct it into constructive channels.  And
it *does* do good to retaliate against the loonies.  It *does* do good
to bash religion as long as it's done in a rational way.  If nobody
had stood up to the witch doctors; if a lot of good people hadn't shed
a lot blood to fight for sanity, you would still be living in the
Dark Ages.  And if you don't continue to fight, the loonies will take
over completely again.

>Let me second Melissa's post from the side of the minority in this
>newsgroup, the majority here at least being atheists of one stamp or 
>another.  I am a Christian who follows this group with no little
>interest. (Actually, without us, and other believers, would alt.atheism
>really be all that interesting?).  If atheists have anything on which
>to rest their position it is the calm, cool, clear foundation of reason,
>of thinking.

True.

>Likewise, believers who wish to assert their faith to
>atheists -- and also to better understand their own faith -- must necessarily
>build their case on the same universal human capacity.

If that universal human capacity that you're speaking of here is the
same as the calm, cool, clear, foundation of reason that you spoke of
above, then you are entirely wrong.  You can't discuss "faith" using
reason.  What you call "faith" is just belief in a load of arbitrary
nonsense, and reason never enters the picture.  When you assert
your faith to atheists, you don't use reason, rather you employ
a shitload of psychological tricks and appeals to emotion to try
to infect the atheist with your beliefs.  Atheists understandably
resent that.

>The hostility
>that I see here (and also on other related newsgroups) certainly does
>not lend itself either to clear thinking,  mutual understanding or even to 
>the deepening of ones own understanding.

The problem Gerry, is that many atheists do think clearly, and they
do have a good understanding of themselves and you.  The bottom
line is that you're crazy, and it's often difficult to keep from
getting a little pissed when one is forced to debate with lunatics.

>By way of my qualifications, I said I was a member of the minority.
>Actually I am probably a minority of that minority.  But just to extend
>the hand of peace, I will assert that, while I am a Christian, in the
>sense that I believe fully in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity --
>including everything in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, and including that
>the Christ Jesus was and is the Son of God, that he became Man, died and rose
>again for our salvation (including yours and mine) -- yet I also do not 
>believe that you or any atheist will fry in hell for your atheistic views
>or even your non-Christian religious beliefs, if you have any, to receive
>the healing power of this salvation.
>
>That said,  I reiterate the call for peace, calm, and reason -- including
>granting the possibility that differences in reasoning do not necessarily
>mean that one person is either stupid, crazy, or harboring sinister motives.

I think that very few of the theist posters harbour sinister motives,
at least not consciously.  Nor do I think that being a theist necessarily
makes one stupid, although I think that most of the theists that pass
through here *are* stupid.  However, you're definitely crazy and that's
the biggest problem.  I do not say that lightly or in the heat of the
moment.  You really are insane.  If you want to know how an atheist
feels, go to your nearest mental hospital and try having a rational
discussion with some of the inmates.  Now imagine that rather being
locked up in a mental hospital, those inmates are our walking the
streets and the running the government. What would you do?

Me, I think that the human race is some serious trouble, and I think that
the only way we're going to get out of it is for everybody be calm and
rational.  We can't afford any longer to have people basing their actions
on insane drivel like the stuff you enumerate above.  And again, I do
not use that term lightly.  It really is insane, and it really is drivel.
I think you'll find that most atheists do not hate you or other Xians,
but they definitely fear what people with such strange thought processes
are capable of doing.  Our objective (well, mine anyway) is to try give
your brain a kick and wake you up from your fantasy world.  Sometimes
there just doesn't seem any better way than ridicule, because rational
discussion often leads nowhere.
--
Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.