HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: How did SkyTrain get built/run so cheaply?
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:55:24 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <2403@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, burke@doright.Tymnet.COM (John Burke) writes:
> subj: How did SkyTrain get built/run so cheaply?
> 
> We're missing something here: can someone who knows some details
> explain to all of us how Vancouver's SkyTrain acheived such a low
> cost per passenger mile?  I think $0.09 per passenger mile was
> quoted.
> 
> I'm not expressing disbelief; if it's true, we need to understand how
> this was done and why our systems are so much less efficient.
> 
> I think I have read most of the postings that showed up in the last
> month discussing SkyTrain.  It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> If I understand about SkyTrain (I've never seen it)
> 
> 	It's fully automated.
> 
> 	It's fully grade-separated (elevated structures? tunnels?)
> 
> 	It runs through some congested metropolitan areas.
> 
> 	I presume its speed is not ridiculously slow.
> 
> This sounds like the complete recipe for a high-cost urban rapid transit
> system.

I don't have details on Skytrain, but it sounds like a recipe for a low
(operating) cost system, not a high cost one.  Fully automated means
you don't have to pay a driver $30 per hour.  Congested metropolitan
areas means that there are lots of potential riders.  High speed (about
30 mph) means you get people where they're going quickly.  Slow speed
tends to increase costs, as well as reducing attractiveness of service.
The cars are also light weight, which helps on energy usage.

jeremy
From: lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Tunnels (was Re: Downtown CalTrain Station)
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:50:34 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: boom.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <185o46INN4oa@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven) writes:
> (I can see the destination 
>signs now -- "E Embarcadero     Marina Safeway.")  

I've seen some evidence that the paved running walk along Marina Green
used to be a rail corridor; you can see some of the rail pop up on the
street crossings. Of course, the NIMBY factor would be off the scale
on any above-ground LRT on this path. The electric buses on Chestnut
and Union seem to service this part of the city pretty well, my
biggest complaint about service in this part of town is that all these
lines travel on Columbus and then Stockton at their end.  A line
traveling on the route of the 1 from the Financial District to across
Van Ness, and then cuting down to Chestnut and/or Union for the rest
of the trip (probably at Fillmore) would be a good addition to the
MUNI map.
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Pro-rail bias in Adrian's transit
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 00:33:17 GMT

In article <p0hoh2c@sgi.sgi.com>, jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
|> How about
|> 	A: Frequent, rapid, transit service for the peninsula.
|> 	   It doesn't have to be rail!
|> 
|> 	Q: Could a bus only transit way be used to meet the objective?
|> 	A: Yes


Sorry Jeremy, I know you're a bus fan, but I'm not convinced as many
people will ride a bus for the same distance, and as frequently as
they would a train.  To be fair, I probably shouldn't have explicitly
put "rail" in the requirements question.

There are also some well-known advantages of rail having to do with
permanance of routing that influences land-use patterns more strongly
than a change-on-a-moment's notice bus line routing.  I am also aware
that bus advocates and rail opponents like to point out how fixed and
inflexible the routing dictated by rail is.  A good rail service will
commonly influence land-use and investment decisions whereas this is
not as true of bus lines.


-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Proof of payment
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:22:56 GMT

In article <pccinds@sgi.sgi.com>, jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep2.235329.12335@ntmtv>, adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
|> > but that I did it very infrequently.  I can say, however, that few
|> > buses I did ride were not POP.
|> 
|> Few buses you rode were not POP?  Or the few buses that you rode were
|> not POP?  I gather that the latter is what you meant, given the context.


Yes.  I inadvertantly left the word "the" out of the sentence.  It
should have read : "... *the* few buses I did ride were not POP".

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:54:18 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

In article <1992Aug28.222826.25931@ntmtv>, adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
> In article <1992Aug28.175138.23709@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
> 
> |> 	What's this grudge against BART that you seem to have?
> 
> I won't speak for Vaughn, but I think it's s too expensive and too
> politicized for starters.  After that, I'd say it isn't compatible
> with much of anything and if it ever (god forbid) actually replaced
> CalTrain's tracks (I doubt it), you'd lose the ability to bring
> other trains like a future LA-SF TGV-style high speed rail service,
> or Amtrak passenger trains, or freights down the peninsula and into
> or near the city of SF and its airport.

Just a question or two.

If Caltrain gets BART level service (every 15 minutes), how would that
affect the expresses?  Do you think they would still run them, thereby
foregoing 15 minute all-stop service, or would they do something else?
Is this in a plan or EIR or study somewhere?

Also, assuming 15 minute service, how would they schedule Amtrak service?
Would it slot in behind some particular run, following it at 35 mph or
whatever the average speed is up the peninsula?

> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
> UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
> ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov

jeremy
From: fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Rail on Geary (Was: Re: rail technologies)
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:19:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (College Eight)
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <pbtlqgk@sgi.sgi.com> jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
>In article <181sodINN50v@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven) writes:
>> 
>> Most-for-the-least is always a good plan, but you can't reserve outside 
>> lanes; deliveries, people turning right, people waiting for parking 
>> spaces, and so on, all use outside lanes.  I've never heard of an 
>> outside lane being reserved; just inside lanes.  And, as I'm sure you 
>> realize, inside lanes wouldn't help that much.  
>
>What about the transit mall in SJ?  You allow cars to turn right, but
>prohibit them in the middle of the block.  It isn't perfect, but it's
>better than nothing.
 
Well, it sounds like this would be a LRT line without the rail -- a 
busway.  Much of the advantage of the LRT on Geary would be the 
increased capacity. 
 
>Anyway, you are probably right about light rail on Geary.  If they
>can make it faster and operate it cheaper than they can do with
>buses, it sounds like a win.  It does sound like tunnelling under
>the one-way areas will probably be necessary, though.  A bit of
>money to build, though.  
 
>If nothing else, it's a lot more of an LRT corridor than Tasman Drive!
 
That I agree with completely.  I can't help thinking that light rail 
was really overbuilding for its corridor in Santa Clara (although my 
impressions were mostly formed right after it opened several years 
ago).  On the other hand, in the whole Bay Area I can't think of a 
better place to put light rail than Geary west of Van Ness.  It's the 
thirteen blocks from Gough Street (where it splits into two one-way 
streets) to Market that form the problem.  I suspect tunneling under 
Geary Street will be necessary.  And expensive. 
 
How much would it cost for an LRT tunnel for 13 blocks, maybe three
stations (Union Square, Leavenworth Street [connecting with the
27-Bryant line], Van Ness Avenue -- this is where the 38L stops now)?

Come to think of it, the most expensive part of the whole operation 
might be the junction under Geary and Market.  The junction at Duboce 
and Market puts the inbound J and N cars in a deep tunnel *under* the 
outbound K-M cars.  A similar junction at Montgomery would have to go 
under both the Muni *and* BART lines, or be in a *very* shallow tunnel 
at the "mezzanine" level.
 
 =Aaron=
 
-- 
Aaron Priven, aaronrp@ucscb.ucsc.edu or fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu
  Bring in the workers, and bring up the rails;
  We're gonna lay down the tracks, and tear up the trails. 
  Open her heart, let the life-blood flow,
  Gotta get on our way 'cause we're movin' too slow.
    -- Gordon Lightfoot, "Canadian Railroad Trilogy"
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Pro-rail bias in Adrian's transit
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:46:06 GMT

In article <p3dttmk@sgi.sgi.com>, jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon) writes:
|> the LRT line), and the government would be almost as committed in funding
|> (it would have cost somewhat less), and would not just stop using their
|> new 300 million dollar busway.

Of course government wouldn't stop using their new busway, because it
could easily be converted into an auto expressway.  It's doubtful this
would really happen, but it would easy and welcomed by transit-hating
auto-enthusiasts looking for more lanes to fill :-(

On the issue of busways costing less, I'm not so sure.  Ottawa's busways
*looked* rather expensive to me.  Also, as I recall, the Vasona Corridor
study (I know you say it was flawed, Jeremy) indicated that the busway
alternative would have about the same capital cost, but higher operating
cost and lower ridership than light rail.

Also, I wonder how busway maintenance costs compare with railroad right
of way maintenance costs.  There was an article in June issue of Railway
Gazette International that about maintenance costs of high speed track.
It pointed out that the cost of maintaining high quality track used only
by TGVs is less than 1 percent of total costs, including depreciation.
The rail on TGVs Sud-Est line is expected to carry more than 500 million 
gross tons before needing replacement.  (I wouldn't be surprised if light
rail track maintenance figures differ somewhat, but the point is that
rails are quite easy to maintain and durable.)  Of course, 99% of buses
in the world get away with using and wearing down general-use roads so
that their share of right of way maintenance costs is difficult, if not
impossible, to gauge.  I've seen severe pavement damage and subsequent
costly-looking repair work at or near many bay area bus stops.  A bus
stop in front of my father's house is getting a large concrete slab
installed because the few buses that stop there are too heavy for the
asphalt roadway to handle.

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Xref: sparky ba.windows.x:112 comp.windows.x:15847 comp.x:3
From: dwong@la.sjf.novell.com (T. David Wong)
Newsgroups: ba.windows.x,comp.windows.x,comp.x
Subject: *** problem in running X server (X11R5) on Sun386i ***
Date: 29 Aug 92 03:10:34 GMT
Reply-To: dwong@la.sjf.novell.com (T. David Wong)
Organization: Novell, Inc., San Jose, Ca

Hi there,

Does anyone out there have X server running on Sun386i successfully?

I've built the X server (both Xsun and XsunMono) with some effort, but
managed to have it built completely without error.   When I tried to bring
it up from the console, I don't get anything on the screen.  I know the
server is up and running, because from other telnet session I saw the
xinit, X, and the first xterm processes are running and I can shut down X
server by killing that xterm process.  Keyboard and mouse are working
fine, because I randomly move the mouse and luckily was able to invoked
the twm.  I guess only the screen is not updated.  Anyone has clue about
this?  I'm running SunOS 4.0.1.

BTW, I cannot find ks_tables.h which is referenced by XKeysymStr.c and
XStrKeysym.c when I tried to build libX11.a and corresponding shared library,
so I just skipped and didn't build them. -- Will this a problem for bringing
up X server?  Where I can find this file?

X server also complaints about 
>> failed to set default font path '/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo/,/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/,/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/'
>> Fatal server error:
>> could not open default font 'fixed'
>> XIO:  fatal IO error 32 (Broken pipe) on X server "(null)"
>>      after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
>>      The connection was probably broken by a server shutdown or KillClient.
I've to invoke xinit with -- -fp '/usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/,/usr/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/'
to keep X server quite.  Dose anybody know what the problem is ?

Thanks in advance for whatever solution/suggestion that you may give.  Please
reply with e-mail since I don't regularly read this newsgroup.

<wong>
#------- TzungHsing David Wong --- Novell Inc. ---     * 349 ** NTHU.EE82 *
 Internet:  dwong@novell.com                                  =====
 Uucp:      ...!uunet!novell.com!dwong                        ==!==
 Snail:     2180 Fortune Dr., San Jose, CA 95131, USA         =====
 Voice:     +1 408 473 8258
#------- TzungHsing David Wong --- Novell Inc. ---     * 349 ** NTHU.EE82 *
 Internet:  dwong@novell.com                                  =====
 Uucp:      ...!uunet!novell.com!dwong                        ==!==
 Snail:     2180 Fortune Dr., San Jose, CA 95131, USA         =====
 Voice:     +1 408 473 8258
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Basic Instinct (BLEAH!) Demonstration...
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:42:16 GMT

In article <17ui46INNdg1@agate.berkeley.edu> cathyc@ocf.berkeley.edu (Catherine Anne Chen) writes:
>"Basic Instinct" is showing on the UC Berkeley Campus this 
>Friday, September 4th at Wheeler Auditorium.
>
>Unfortunately, ASUC Superb, the group hosting the movie, will not
>consider retracting the movie - and will not disclose reasons why - 
>even after a nice letter from yours truly plus some.

I dunno, I took one look at Michael Douglas naked and wanted to become
a lesbian.  And anyway, they get to live in such fantastic houses on
Divisadero and in Marin.  And those clothes...

It's a preposterous movie, and as hate-fodder it's even more inept
and ineffectual than _Cruising_ was.  It's best enjoyed as camp.
I'd imagine that with the right chemical assistance, it'd even be
funny.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Stop Smoking .
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:26:17 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

It looks like the smoking question (stop smoking) got a fairly wide response,
e.g. don't go to the bars, yes, it would be great if no one smokes, people
who smoke drink and therefore they would go out of business.

Hmmmm!  but I still stand by and state that this is a fairly simple step in
the process of changing a condition which has no 'seeable' benefits.  Smoking
is injurious period.  There use to be claims that it had health benefits but
those have all been fairly well disproven- anyway I know when I am around smokers
I don't feel any benefits.

As far as bars/clubs loosing business- not if they were all that way.  Think about
all of the money some places have spent and do spend on smoke abatement projects,
ionizers, fans, filters... they could save money as well on not having to pull
up the carpets in order to give rid of the buildup and odor.

Major changes tend to occur in small steps and require the interaction of the
people involved... maybe it would be a good incentive for smokers who go to
bars to have to at least stop when they are there.
From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: Stop Smoking .
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:17:20 GMT
Reply-To: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)
Organization: DEC Western Software Lab

In article <17du09INNlka@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU () writes:
|> Major changes tend to occur in small steps and require the interaction of the
|> people involved... maybe it would be a good incentive for smokers who go to
|> bars to have to at least stop when they are there.

Maybe it would be a good incentive for gays who have sex to stop when
they are in hotels.

To fathom hell, or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic.
				Dr. Osmond
Xref: sparky ba.motss:1493 ba.music:1434
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: ba.motss,ba.music
Subject: Auditions for Silicon Valley Gay Men's Chorus
Date: 26 Aug 92 10:34:58 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: ba
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

The following is a copy of a letter which has just been mailed out to
our members and supporters.  If you're interested in joining our
chorus, or finding out more about us, please read on!  If you have any
further questions, need directions, etc., feel free to send e-mail to
michael@resonex.com.

=====================================

AUDITIONS!     AUDITIONS!

Dear Current, Former and Future Chorus Members,

Our new chorus year is about to begin.  So, come one, come all to the
auditions for the holiday concert.  This will be our first true holiday
concert in several years with our performance date set for December 19th. 
In fact, dates have been set for all three concerts this "year" (September
through June).  

Holiday Concert 	12/19/92
Variety Concert 	3/20/93 and 3/27/93 (could this be another melodrama?)
Pride Concert     	6/19/93

Auditions will be:  Saturday, 9/12/92 from 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM

Location:	Sunnyhills United Methodist Church 
		355 Dixon Road 
		Milpitas, CA 

If you can't make it on Saturday, there are auditions on Monday, September
14th, from 6:30PM to 7:00PM, prior to the start of our first rehearsal.
Rehearsals start at 7:30PM and end at 10:00PM every Monday night. 

All returning members are asked to audition on Saturday according to the
following schedule:

	Basses,    	11:00 to Noon
	Baritones,	Noon to 1:00
	Tenors,    	1:00 to 2:00

New members are urged to arrive for auditions any time during the Saturday
auditions or Monday evening at 6:30PM.

In addition to our regular concerts, several other "mini" performance dates
are known to be in the planning, including: singing for a regional
conference of Reconciling Methodist churches to be held at Sunnyhills UMC on
October 3rd; singing for an interfaith service being organized through the
First Unitarian Church of San Jose on October 4th; and performing at
a candlelight service on November 30th for World AIDS Day.  The locations
for these last two are not yet set.

This will be our tenth anniversary year.  Come help us make it the best year
we've ever had!

Warmest regards,
Phillip Moss
Vice President of Music, SVGMC

-- 
Michael Bryan        michael@resonex.com                     |     ,_,
Milk and Cheese in '92!!!                                    |    /oo \
"What the world needs now are some true words of wisdom,     |    <>__|
like 'La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la'."  -- Cracker           |    |  U|
From: dgreen@sti.com (Dan R. Greening)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Cargo Club/Santa Fe: Not a non-smoking gay disco anymore, I guess.
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:13:12 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.

I received the following comments from lmkay@garnet.berkeley.edu:

| unfortunately the cargo club has been sold, and I believe it is either
| closed or no longer gay.  Try the "edge" I believe, downtown Santa Fe,
| although it is very smokey.
| 
| The woman who owned the Cargo Club was burned out, so she sold it.  I
| believe she'd been in the business many years and was tired of the
| long hours, hard work, etc.  I met her at my friend's house, and she
| seemed to still be recovering from running the place.

I was at Cargo Club about 2 years ago.  No more, it seems.  Sorry about the
misinformation.
-- 
____
\  /Dan Greening    Software Transformation   1601 Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd, #100
 \/dgreen@sti.com   (408) 973-8081 x313       Cupertino, CA 95014
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Gay studies
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:21:12 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.


I know that both Berkeley and City College (of SF) have
gay studies departments.  Does anyone know what degrees
you can get in this, and what is involved?


Jeff
-FWA
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Subject: Re: Basic Instinct (BLEAH!) Demonstration...
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:58:34 GMT

In article <5fnI037m76We00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> jeffreyp@uts.amdahl.com (Jeff Mainville) writes:

>The Living End is playing at the Castro Theater; it depicts HIV+ gays
>killing people  - rather a negative light, wouldn't you say?  Why have
>their been no protests by the gay community against that film?

Because it is a gay man killing gay bashers.  See the movie before you
say things like this... It has some interesting things to say, however,
the killing of the bashers is a minor point.


FWA
From: tooka@train.EBay.Sun.COM ()
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Wanted: Info on Gay Toastmasters (if any)
Date: 1 Sep 1992 22:59:28 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tooka@train.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: train.ebay.sun.com

Hi Motssers,

Could anyone who knows of a Gay Toastmasters chapter
or a public-speaking skills workshop with many gay
members in the Bay Area please Re: my post?

I'd like to develop my public speaking skills and
socialize in the process...

Thanks and take care,

-Tony 



Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: coyote@sti.com (Ron Lussier)
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Organization: National Man-Smurf Love Association
Distribution: ca
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 03:26:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.152845.10985@pcnntp.apple.com> (Craig Webb) writes:
>In article <g29mnzq.foucault@netcom.com>, foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye) writes:
>
>> You are so right. My unending pursuit of the perfect buffalo caprese
>> and pinot grigio, my obsession with baseball and the grand opera and
>> [...]
> 
>Dear Sir,
>
>With all due respect, please take your pinot grigio and place it where 
>you would most enjoy it.  Your personal desires are not important to me.
>Issues that endanger our very lives are.

Oooh.  Who around here lacks a sense of humor?  And who is just a leeetle
self-righteous?

Yr. Obt. (and amused) Svt.,
Coyote B. Smurf
(Proud member of the National Man-Smurf Love Association, fighting for the
 right of men and smurfs to express their very natural love for one another
 without government interferance or bigotry!)
-- 
Ron 'Coyote' Lussier            /|               Software Transformation
coyote@sti.com                 / |      1601 Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd, #100
(408) 973-8081 x315           /__\                   Cupertino, CA 95014