From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: All-time Teams (Cardinals)
Organization: NSSL
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:36:44 GMT

In article <750@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>Thus spake hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks):
>
>>I thought I'd give a shot at an all-time Cardinal line-up, complete with 
>>back-ups.  I tried to give considerable weight to longevity with the team.
>>
>>      Starter          Back-up
>
>>1B:  J. Bottomley    J. Mize
>
>Is this one of those "longevity" calls?  Mize was a significantly better
>hitter *and* fielder.  I'll take The Big Cat over Sunny Jim.
>

This is in fact, the big longevity call.  I originally had it the other 
way, but then length of service came up.  (In another context, I mentioned
the lack, other than Musial, of a long-term Cardinal 1B.)  The Mize trade 
was probably Branch Rickey's biggest mistake as a GM.
>
>>LF:  S. Musial       J. Medwick
>
>Can we cheat and put one in left and one in right?  I'd rather have either
>than Slaughter, by a good bit.

Cheating is your own personal moral decision, Dave.  I will take the 
high road.:-)

>
>>CF:  T. Moore        C. Flood
>
>I'd swap these, I think.  How long did Reggie Smith play for the Cards?

I can live with a swap.  About the same career length.  Marvelous 
fielders.  I gave Moore a little sentimental credit for time off in
the service (3 years) during The Big War.  Smith only played 2 1/2 years.

>
>>RF:  E. Slaughter    T. Douthit
>
>See above.
>
>>SP:  R. Gibson  J. Dean  H. Brecheen  J. Tudor  J. Haines
>
>Gibson, Dean, Mort Cooper, Steve Carlton (6 years!), Max Lanier.  Tudor only
>pitched, what, 3 healthy years? 

(I just found out this morning that the father of a friend at church grew
up in the house next to where the Dean brothers were born.  I'll try to 
get some stories.)

Re: Carlton v. Tudor.  I'll stand by Tudor.  Carlton pitched 5+ years 
(15 appearances in 65, 9 starts in 66, then 5 years.)  Tudor had the 
complete seasons in '85 and '86, partials in '87 and '88 (the trade)
and an almost complete season in '90.  For Carlton's 5 complete years,
his ERAs were 2.78, 2.99, 2.17 (1969!), 3.72, 3.56.  His record, in 142
starts was 77-62.  Tudor's ERA, beginning in '85--1.93, 2.92, 3.84,
2.30, 2.40 (1990).  He was 62-26 in 125 starts.  They played on similar
quality teams (Carlton may have an advantage there).  I figured that,
even giving Tudor losses in the other 17 starts, he'd still have a 
better record than Carlton.  Plus, Carlton never reached the peak of 
Tudor as a Cardinal. 

>
>>I decided to start Musial in left rather than first because I thought the 
>>fall-off from Medwick to a back-up (Brock or Hafey) was larger than Bottomley
>>to Mize.  
>
>I'd agree, since the drop-off from Bottomley to Mize is negative :-).  Still,
>how much do you lose defensively by putting either one in the wrong field?

Except for the less-than-perfect arm, I'd probably move Musial.  In fact, I'd
guess he played more games in right than Medwick did.  From what I've heard,
Stan was an excellent fielder, to go along with his hitting.

>
>>Frisch doesn't beat out Schoendienst by much.
>
>He was a much better hitter and a better fielder.  What's left?  (Red did have
>that one awesome year, 'way above his established levels...)

I suppose I downgraded Frisch's offense because of when he played.  Perhaps
it was a little much.
>
>All in all, good picks.  But then, the Cards are a lot easier than the
>White Sox...

That's why I jumped on it, before anyone else did.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"Better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late."
--Branch Rickey
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball