From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.europe.misc
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 26 Dec 92 05:11:31 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

ar3@cove.cis.ufl.edu (Aleksander Rapisavljevic) writes:


>Josip Loncaric writes:
>>By this logic, every conflict that ever was had both parties equally
>>responsible.  This is false reasoning.  Milosevic sent Serbs on a
>>war path, and all non-Serbs sought to defend themselves.  There is a
>>world of difference between the two approaches.  Besides, the conflict
>>is not about "hatred and provocative moves", but about Milosevic's power.

>Ana M. Shane writes:
>>While I agree completely with your analysis of the Milosevic's politics,
>>I also think that the extremist nationalistic elements on the part of
>>the Croatian and Bosnian governments pushed as hard toward the war
>>path ....


>Respected Ana,

> I admire your pacifistic views and agree with several other points
>you made in completing Mr. Loncaric's writing, but let me give you
>some justification to why you can not equate Croatian leaders 
>to Miloshevic in their intentions to provoke war:

>   At the time Tudjman won the elections in Croatia the Serbian
>lead federal government managed to completely disarm Croatian
>teritorial defence forces, simply by passing the required law
>and peacfuly emptying Croatian military warehouses.

Could you please explain to me how the Federal government was
Serbian lead? Could you post the names of the members of the
Presidium at that time (1990), and names of all the federal
ministers, (executive branch) as well as the names of the three 
to five top military commanders?

Could you cite the law you are referring to?

>   At that same period Tudjman was left with police force
>developed by former Croatian communist party which  consisted
>of extremely large percentage of Serbian policemen. Thorough
>reorganization and rearming of the police was something that
>could not be done in few weeks.

Could you also quote this percentage? (of the Serbian policemen)?
Also, if they were equal citizens in Croatia, why not be in the
police force? The Serbian population in Croatia was about 12%.
How could they have been in the majority, or extremely large percentage
in the police force? 

>   If you compare with military assets Miloshevic had at his
>disposal:  fully trained airforce, navy and army with modern weapons
>aquired through financial power of all six republics over last
>45 years, I hope you can realize that Tudjman was in no position
>to ask for war with Serbia.

No question about it. However, that doesn't prove that Tudjman
didn't inspire or follow the most right wing Croatian chauvinist groups
who were very threatening to the Serbian population, so that the
fears they had were a very fertile soil for the Milosevic propaganda.
Tudjman didn't do almost anything to prove to the Serbian population
that they will be secure and equal citizens of Croatia, and Tudjman's
government as well as the Croatian government before Tudjman was
elected, didn't stop increasing number of nationalistic "incidents".

A secession like that was a sure ticket to war. That was clear to
anybody in Yugoslavia in 1990. And, from some reports I saw
it is also a question for debate how much arms Croatian government
had already purchased before the secession (although I cannot
assert that with 100% certainty). 

The politics of Tudjman was no less dangerous and damaging to the
people (of all the nationalities) in Croatia, than the politics
of Milosevic. Although the metaphor is not quite fitting, one
could blame Yago as much as Othello for the murder of Desdemona.
(Not that Milosevic was or is a "good willing" brute). The point is that
at the moment, Croatian government does not militarily match
forces that attack them, but as for the motives, criminality,
responsibility for the peoples security and lives, honesty,
and love for their own (Croatian) people, they are not much behind 
Milosevic.


>   On the other hand, these same reasons explain why Serbian
>leadership pushed for war as hard as it did: Lets destroy Croatia
>before it can become a threat. 

A threat to whom? A threat to what? 

>The fact that Croatia lost 30% of 
>the territory is commonly interpretated as a defeat, in fact it is
>a pure miracle  they retained other 70%. 

As you must remember, the war in Croatia was "frozen" by the
UNPROFOR troops. And as you also must remember, the disputed areas
are just the ones where the Serbian population lives (Krajina).
Even Milosevic, and Serbian leaders from Croatia never aspired
to any other parts of Croatia. (Which is besides the point anyway)

>........................................This can be attributed
>to extraordinary effort and courage of Croatian people in their
>patriotic war, as well as lack of moral among Serbian recruits and
>officers to wage an offensive war. Croatian government itself did
>a pretty poor job in the defence effort. Although Tudjman was widely
>known for his harsh rethoric, he diverted attempts by his military
>commanders to overrun voulnerable Serbian military barracs in
>Croatia, just to avoid  provoking Serbian military might.

Are you actually justifying Tudjman by saying he could have
pushed Croatia even deeper, but he didn't? The only justification
that would excuse Tudjman would have been persecution of the
war criminals who perpetuated atrocities against humanity,
absolute guarantees to all citizens of Croatia that they will be
DEFENDED by Croatian official authorities against "paramilitary"
extremist groups, disarmament of non regular forces (first Croatian,
and then Serbian - to show to the Serbian people that they do not
have to fear) while the international forces were securing peace.
Opening up the media, installing true democracy, passing just
citizenship laws.... etc. There could have been millions of ways
Tudjman's government could have eased up nationalistic tensions.

>Again, think WHO had the MEANS for war in ex-yugo, and you
>will get an answer WHO  WANTED the war.

Wrong. You don't have to have MEANS for war to WANT war. The 
most recent elections in Serbia show that clearly: Albanian
population didn't vote when they could have changed the
result in favor of Panic, easily. But, their leaders at the
moment WANT war, thinking that it will be the only way to get
what THEY want - secession from Yugoslavia (Serbia). How many
innocent Albanians from Kosovo will die in the process? Had they
voted NOW, they could have changed the political makeup in Serbia,
starting on the road of democracy, making it better for them as well.
If they worked together with the democratic forces and peace forces
in Serbia (which are not small, only have no power), the Albanian leaders
could have secured at least that the war doesn't "spill" out to the whole
Balkans. (Similar arguments hold for the Muslims in Sanjak). And,
by extension, similar arguments hold for the Croatian and Bosnian
(rump) government. (Do not forget, that I am NOT defending anyone
who is waging war, and least of all Milosevic & co).

>Following the same logic I believe that Croatia will be interested
>to strike back on Serbia in couple of years from now when it will
>finally posses a well trained and equiped military and when
>Serbia is sufficiently weakened by war in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Do you want to say that the "logic" of Croatian government looks
favorably at the wars in Bosnia and the possible one in Kosovo?
Do you want to say that regardless of terrible horrors that are
happening now, the Croatian government is actually advocating
and, maybe, advising and actively helping make more war? Especially,
that the people they are in fact "sending" to fight are not
Croatians, but instead are Bosnians and Albanians?

I sincerely hope that this "scenario" is NOT in the heads of the
Croatian government: for the sake of the peoples who they would
destroy! What is going on NOW is criminal, but to hope for MORE?
This couldn't be justified even by the hatred toward SERBS, but
could only be regarded as totally pathological...

>The money from Croatian coastal turism can readily provide such
>power in few years.  That will really be a test if Tudjman or
>whoever is in power is as bad as Miloshevic, by which I am 
>reflecting not only to the currently occupied land in Croatia but to
>a possible partial occupation of areas in Vojvodina (Serbia) as well,
>where by the way a substantial Croatian and Hungarian minority
>live nowdays (in a way it would be just).

How in the world something like that could be just? This is the same
logic as the logic of some Serbs who see this war as a chance for
revenge for what happened in the WWII!!!

No war is just! No conflicts can be really settled by war. One day
it will all have to be negotiated at the table, unless there is
perpetual war. So why not stop now and negotiate and drop the
hatred toward nations, just punish the actual criminals (on all sides)
for the actual deeds against humanity.


>Aleksander Radisavljevic

(just a question: Radisavljevic or Rapisavljevic?)

I sincerely hope that something be done to stop the war and have
all the disputes solved through negotiations. The only way I see
that leads to peace is for national hatreds to stop. No nation
in ex-Yugoslavia (as people) is guilty, but they are all victims
of the ruthless, criminal, corrupt and inhuman struggle for power
between various leadership members and groups of petty criminals,
ex-convicts and psychologically disturbed madmen.

Happy New Year (from the depth of my heart) and with hopes for

        __________  __________   _______          _________   __________
       /   ___   / /  _______/  /   __  |        /  ____  /  /  _______/
      /   /  /  / /  /         /   /  | |       /  /   /_/  /  /
     /   /__/  / /  /___      /   /___| |      /  /        /  /___
    /   ______/ /   ___/     /   _____  |     /  /        /   ___/
   /   /       /   /        /   /     | |    /  /    __  /   /
  /   /       /   /_____   /   /      | |   /  /____/ / /   /_____
 /___/       /_________/  /___/       |_|  /_________/ /_________/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Shane                               pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky alt.politics.europe.misc:252 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10259