From: webber@world.std.com (Robert D Webber)
Subject: Re: poly-wired?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:29:21 GMT

In article <ZEN.92Aug10234913@death.corp.sun.com> zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:
>In article <BssrKI.Ew6@world.std.com> webber@world.std.com (Robert D Webber) writes:
>  >In article <ZEN.92Aug6190333@death.corp.sun.com> zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:
>  >To quote Bruce Cockburn apallingly out of context, "Nobody ever said
>  >it would be easy, but can we give up now and fail the test?"
>
>  That's "can we let go now and fail the test".  I happen to be the
>administrator of the bruce cockburn mailing list (mail to
>humans-request@death.corp.sun.com if you'd like to join... *grin*)

You're right, of course.  How I could get that wrong after listening
to _Humans_ so often in the days right before that posting is, well,
human, I guess.  We all mistakes: you, too.
>For those not in the know, I believe that song was about bruce's
>presumably manogamous breakup with his wife, which is interesting in
>this context...)

In Cockburn's case this perhaps was important enough to go beyond the
term "breakup," since he seems to have taken the idea of marriage
as a sacrament quite literally.

>  >>... Personally, I think that my (hopefully temporarily and
>  >>soon to be changed for the better) current low self esteem is getting in
>  >>the way of my enjoyment of my relationship [...]
>  >>[...] Anyway, what I'm after is
>  >>for any advice or anecdotes of others that may have gone through (or are
>  >>going through) similar hard times...
>
>  >So basically you want to be told that either you're not entitled to
>  >your feelings or you are?
>
>  No, nothing of the sort.  I said that I was having problems, and if
>anyone had any similar stories to tell, I'd be happy to hear them.
>I don't see where you get me asking for people to tell me what to do or
>think out of that.

I think it was some stuff you left out of your quote of me quoting you
that did it: I apologize if I was wrong again, but:

>... Anyway, what I'm after is
>for any advice or anecdotes of others that may have gone through (or are
>going through) similar hard times -- either with the result being that
>you (or perhaps someone else close to you) overcame your social
>upbringing, or that you didn't, because, perhaps, it's something
>inherent or wired in.

It's the part about it being wired in: the fact that you even ask
this question makes me wonder whether you aren't looking for a reason
to say, "Well, I couldn't do it, but it ain't natural so I'm not
to blame."  Your other posts seem a bit defensive of the non-poly
attitude, too.  And please note that I did _not_ suggest that you
wanted to be told "what to think," just whether or not it was reasonable
to have the feelings you do.

>  >Seems like maybe you need to work
>  >on the self-esteem and insecurity so that you can own up to yourself
>  >about what it is that you really want and make some decisions about
>  >how to get it.
>
>  Well, you have it half right.  I *know* what I want, as I said in my
>post.  Yeah, I'm currently working on my esteem.  So what else is new?
>I said all this in my post.

Oops, sorry not to make every line of my post a positive and novel
contribution to your life situation.

>  >I suspect that it's not enough to hope, but good luck.
>
>  Thanks.
>
>  >An insecure
>  >person trying polyamory is certainly trying the kill or cure approach
>  >to her problems!
>
>  *laugh* Well, I think anyone that jumps into it is taking that
>approach.  For that matter, I've found that most insecure people have
>problems with relationships.  Do people out there think that polyamory
>is the relationship method of choice for people with healthy self
>esteem?  (I don't think so myself, but it may be that it's easier, just
>like many other things).  You seem to imply that I'm just starting to
>think about polyamory, but in fact I'm just started to practice it,
>which is quite different.  I used to think quite well of myself, for all
>it's worth, and over a dozen years ago I was thinking the same things as
>I do now about polyamory, except now I'm trying it out, sans confidence.

I don't see where I implied that you were just starting to think about
polyamory: relax, will you, please?  I think that it's more reasonable
to interpret "trying polyamory" as "trying practicing polyamory" than
"trying thinking about polyamory," but that's just my opinion.

I think that polyamory without self-esteem can work, but only if you're
willing to accept others' love as some kind of miracle bestowed on
you, though you don't deserve it.  It worked that way for me for years.
If you have a little too much esteem, though, I think that low esteem
can easily lead to jealousy by making it hard to see why one's lovers
would bother with one as well as the shiny new persons they've gotten
involved with.



-- 
Bob Webber, webber@world.std.com ===========================================
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