From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: Loren Finkelstein, please clarify.
Summary: Better yet, Loren, please learn something before posting... 
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Keywords: You expect me to mark my deletions?  Dream on... 
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 03:13:32 GMT

In article <9DEC92.19003074@vax.clarku.edu> lfinkelstein@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>In a previous article, hsims@vax.clarku.edu wrote:
>>In a previous article, lfinkelstein@vax.clarku.edu wrote:
>>> 
>>>I believe that abortion is the killing of a human being (see previous postings 
>>>for my reasoning).  Believeing this I can't advocate the legal killing of 
>>>people (I am using human being and person synonomously).
>>> 
>>>If someone came out publically stating that they didn't believe that african 
>>>americans, or homosexuals, or jews were human, we would still outlaw the 
>>>killing of them.  Is that not forcing our views onto them in the same way that 
>>>I have been accused of forcing my views onto others?  

Point of interest:  As of 01/01/93, it will be legal to discriminate against
homosexuals in the state of KKKolorado.

>> 
>>This is a lousy analogy.  Are Jews living inside an unwilling person's body?  
>>Seen any homosexuals using a woman's bodily resources against her will?  None 
>>of these examples are equivalent to fetuses.  The problem is, you are ignoring 
>>pregnant women and what they have to go through.

Something most pro-lifers tend to do...

>
>That is a different issue.  If you want to execute fetuses for the crime of 
>using a womans body against her wishes then say so.  That is an argument that 
>I haven't seen come up yet.  I don't know which specific laws are violated by 
>using someones body against them, but in the current legal system, I don't 
>believe that they come with a death sentence.

Give a woman a gun, and teach her how to use it to defend herself.  Try to
rape her.  Think about why she won't be charged with murder for killing you.

>
>> 
>>>That is why we have to use the democratic system.  The majority decides whose 
>>>beliefs should be law.  Right now the majority says that jews are humans, so 
>>>even if you believe otherwise, you can't kill them.  
>> 
>>Are you suggesting that if the majority decides Jews are not human, then 
>>killing them is okay?  You're losing it Loren.
>> 
>
>No, but you are suggesting that since you, and the current majority, have 
>decided that fetuses aren't human then killing them is ok.

This statement is not correct.

>
>>>Maybe someday the 
>>>majority will say that a fetus is human and abortion will be illegal.  Maybe 
>>>not.  Right now, the best we can do is state our individual beliefs, and 
>>>the reasons for those beliefs, and hope that the majority will identify with 
>>>our beliefs.  (This applys to everyone on every side of every issue)
>> 
>>Why not let the people most effected by the issue decide for themselves?  
>
>Because it is the fetuses that are most effected by the issue, and they are 
>incapable of communicating their wishes.  I believe that fetuses are people, 
>you don't, so it is up to the rest of society to decide.  

Are you now claiming to speak for fetuses?

>
>>I see no reason why your beliefs cannot coexist with mine.  If you don't like 
>>abortion, don't have one.  If I want one, I'll get it.  This way everyone's 
>>beliefs are respected.
>
>Let me change one word in this sentence.
>
>If you don't like slaves, don't have one.  If I want one, I'll get it.  This 
>way everyone's beliefs are respected.

Error #666:  Logic segmentation fault.  Core dump.

>
>That is why everyone can't live by their own beliefs.  As a society we have to 
>have laws that apply to everyone, even if they go against some peoples 
>beliefs.  

I'd be interested in finding out your opinions on KKKolorado Amendment #2.
--
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion