From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:28:58 GMT

In article <FAIGIN.92Nov10131151@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:20:12 GMT, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) said:


I wrote:
>> Other differences are more serious.  If you don't keep chalav yisrael
>> ("kosher milk"), I can still eat in your house.  But if you don't
>> keep kosher at all, I can't eat at your house (unless you make
>> special preparations for me).  Do your prayer rituals include
>> practices that violate my interpretation of halakha?; if so,
>> I cannot worship with you.

Daniel replies:
>But if I'm aware of the rituals (as any serious Reform Jew would be), then I
>can easily make simple accomidations for you. If I don't keep kosher and
>invite you over, I give you fresh fruit, OU products, unopened packages of
>plastic utensils. We want to prey together and have different rituals: I can
>follow the more observant one for that day, because of the shared meaning of
>its importance to you. In any case, the fundamentals are the same: the Shema,
>the V'Hafta, the Avot, the Adoration, the Torah service, the Kaddish (I'll
>stand, you can sit), the Mi Chamocha, the Barchu. All of these are part of the
>Reform service too. So we can worship together if we work together.


And I would appreciate your cooperation, and your willingness to
adjust to my practices.  That's why I characterized these as "more
serious" but not insurmountable.  What about my halakhic restrictions
against mixed seating?  Well, I could do something sneaky like praying
in private before joining you in Temple (and I have done so on several
occasions).

Then I wrote:
>> And the most serious difference of all are difficulties in
>> defining personal status.  If we differ on who is a Jew, or on
>> who is married, our groups necessarily diverge.

And Daniel replied:
>Not necessarily, but only when a person transfers from one movement to a more
>stringent movement. After a number of generations of practicing Judaism, a
>proper conversion in the past becomes less significant. As for who is married,
>there's always Dina D'Malchuta Dina: Are they married in the eyes of the
>state. If so, I'll consider them married. After all, the particular marriage
>ceremony is not written in stone. If two Jews have a civil marriage, are they
>considered to be married by Judaism? I think so.

As I said, here we've got problems.  Several generations of practicing
Judaism does not make one Orthodox-halakhically Jewish, and proper
conversion remains a problem (for the Orthodox community).  Dina
d'malchuta applies for business matters, not personal status (although
there are other arguments that might make even a civil marriage
Orthodox-halakhically acceptable).

As you probably know, the most serious problems are not with
conversion (the person can always convert Orthodox-halakhically
after the Reform conversion), or marriage, but divorce.  Orthodox-
halakha requires a standard get; Reform rabbis typically (I have
been told) do not.  The children of a woman who remarries without
a get are mamzerim according to Orthodox-halakha, and this is a 
very serious problem indeed. 

I wrote:
>> Must there be only one way?  Perhaps not.  But if two ways 
>> include mutually exclusive practices, was are in deep trouble.
>
Daniel replied:
>Unless we set aside our differences, focus on our commonalities, and show
>understanding and respect for the fact that we do differ.

Let's focus on commonalities whenever possible, recognize our differences,
respect one another's commitment, etc.  But it is also important for
all of us to remain faithful to our own understanding of what G-d
demands of us.



-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
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