From: pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 22 Dec 1992 12:15:02 -0600
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: copland.crhc.uiuc.edu

manley@optilink.COM (Terry Manley) writes:

>In article <1h1a3hINN7jv@copland.crhc.uiuc.edu> pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan) writes:

>[repsonds to Clayton Cramer but addresses none of the issues he raised]
>Paul - do you have a response to Clayton's other statements?

I don't even have a copy of them.  But I would be delighted to post a 
response to anything you'd like me to look at.  You should probably e-mail
me a copy, since I'm going on break and my site expires these groups daily.

In general, however, I've been arguing with Clayton for a long time - if you
think all I have to say is that Clayton is a viper, you've chosen one message
out of many.  Have you been following this thread?

Since we're on the subject, I'd like to comment on the subject of ad hominem
debating: Clayton's overwhelming hostility toward gays and lesbians IS
relevant to his attacks against them.  When Clayton is reporting what he
read in a book, or in a magazine, or what he sees on soc.motss, his 
perceptions are heavily colored by the biases and prejudices he starts out
with.  So are his conclusions.

Let's look at a few of the things Clayton has had to say about gays this week:

CC> No question, massive education is needed.  But it won't solve the
CC> problem of the person who is suicidal, and completely unable to
CC> control their sexuality (i.e. the average homosexual).

CC> I will claim that Paul Ryan is a liar, but that just seems to be part
CC> and parcel of being a homoseuxal.

CC> You ARE a group of freaks, as soc.motss demonstrates regularly.

CC> It is certainly true that child molesters are disproportionately
CC> homosexual/bisexual.

CC> Homosexuals obviously have some
CC> problem suing anyone for giving them AIDS, because who do you sue?
CC> A thousand different people, most of them complete strangers?

CC> no other group but homosexuals is trying to legitimate child molestation.

CC> the over-whelming majority of the gay community supports child molestation

This is NOT the sort of person who is capable of a rational analysis of this
subject, and that's relevant here.

Incidentally, I just noticed an article I saved about 3 weeks ago.  This 
sudden interest in rationally addressing the issues is somewhat newfound,
isn't it, Terry?

(a whining bunch of promiscuous, militant, fascist homosectuals, indeed)

Paul

TM> From: manley@optilink.COM (Terry Manley)
TM> Subject: WHINERS, MOANERS & CLAYTON CRAMER
TM> To make it clear to all of you Clayton Cramer is not going to lose
TM> his net access.  I'm not the sys admin here, but I know him, and
TM> he is not going to deny anyone net access.  If you have a problem
TM> with Clayton you're going to have to solve it by yourself - you
TM> can't run crying to daddy (or should that be mommy) anymore.
TM> 
TM>                 HE'S HERE,
TM>                 HE'S NOT QUEER,
TM>                 WE CAN'T DEAL WITH IT.
TM> 
TM>                 <repeat with much foot stomping,
TM>                  and breast beating, it helps if
TM>                  you can throw blood on nearby innocent
TM>                  victims, while turning over police cars,
TM>                  and burning public buildings>
TM> 
TM> Instead of whining it's really very simple, get yourself a threaded
TM> news reader, I suggest trn, and start a kill file.  You can have a
TM> kill file per news group.  You can kill postings by a single or
TM> multiple posters, you can kill entire threads.
TM> kill file per news group.  You can kill postings by a single or
TM> multiple posters, you can kill entire threads.
TM> 
TM> I have a three step program for you:
TM> 
TM> 1. Stop whining.
TM> 2. Stop reading his posts.
TM> 3. For those of you who violated #2:
TM>    Stop responding to his posts.
TM> 
TM> If you want an automatic "Clayton Cramer, Cretin or just Homophobe? FAQ"
TM> post everytime Clayton posts something JUST FAQING DO IT and get on
TM> with your life.  Get Tim Pierce to do it.  He should know how.  It's
TM> really not *that* difficult.  (Even for a whining bunch of
TM> promiscuous, militant, fascist homosectuals.  I mean really, take one
TM> night off from the bath houses, and do it.)
TM> 
TM> BTW: Shouldn't we have a "girl-cott"?
TM> 
TM> dave "what % of the population is homosexual and are they all really
TM> child molesters who support NAMBLA, and aren't they to blaim for
TM> AIDS? They all have it you know, and they're so promiscuous, just like
TM> bunnies you know. Aren't bunnies vegetarian by design?" manley@optilink.com
TM> 
TM> The preceding posting is a test of the USENET
TM> sarcasm-impairment detection facility.   The
TM> post may contain phrases designed to elicit
TM> comical responses by said impaired individuals.
TM> On the other hand it may contain phrases specifically
TM> tailored to piss you (YES, I MEAN YOU) off.  I'm
TM> not even sure which is which.
-- 
Paul Ryan                  (pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu)     1308 West Main St.
Center for Reliable High-Performance Computing     Urbana, IL 61801
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign         (217) 244-7179