HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Garvin Hallucina (2)
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:09:19 GMT

From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
In <1992Jul30.193123.5263@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, Bronis Vidugiris writes:

>>Actually, I don't agree with this definition.  I think there is a need
>>for a different term than 'rape'  to describe unwanted intercourse that
>>didn't involve force, threats, or taking advantage of someone who was
>>incapacitated, which is more or less the legal definiton of the term.
>>Unfortunately, I don't have any specific suggestions.

Theoretically, I agree; however, I'm not sure how well that would work or what
type of crime this would be.  Perhaps such intercourse would be to rape as
manslaughter is to murder--basically equivalent acts which are penalized to
different degrees due to the circumstances surrounding the crime.

If it didn't involve force, threats, or taking advantage of the incapacitated,
could it *really* be totally unwanted?  My feeling is that it *could*, perhaps
if a woman feared unpleasant consequences for saying "no" (even if the man
never made any threats).  But if the woman doesn't resist, can the man really
be held responsible?  Such a problem already exists in real life, if an adult
man has voluntary intercourse with a minor and she claimes to be at least 18.
The man has no idea that he is doing anything illegal, but she may turn him in
later (such a situation happened to a brother of mine).

This is a sticky situation.  Just because a woman fears the consequences of
rejecting a sexual overture and says nothing doesn't make her "deserve" what
is coming, but at the same time, a man doesn't deserve to be charged with a
criminal offense for doing something which doesn't seem wrong to him.

Also, how can a woman tell a man that sexual advances are "unwanted" without
her saying so?  Even if she says "no," there *are* women who enjoy playing hard
to get.  For that case, I would suggest a similar remedy as I apply to sexual
harassment--get to know the woman before you act.  If you *know* that a woman
loves playing hard to get, and you know her well enough to make the assessment,
then there may be a good reason for a man to see a green light.  This is most
definitely not true if a man knows little about the woman or if he knows that
she isn't a game player like that.  In sexual harassment, I get to know a woman
*very* well before I flirt with her, touch her, and so on.  Some women love to
be flirted with and touched; others despise it.  Many problems would be avoided
if the people involved took the time to become better acquainted before acting
on their biological tendencies.  I guess I just have to make sure I stay on the
good side of the women with whom I flirt rather heavily...  :)

Just another $0.02 from:

Tim Irvin    j056600@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
****************************************************************************
The Federalist Papers:  Cliffs notes for Constitutional study.  Use it.
Xref: sparky soc.men:13584 soc.women:13957 alt.censorship:6155 talk.politics.misc:35391
From: robert@informix.com (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.censorship,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Hate speech okay, Supreme Court says
Keywords: aieeee
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:46:29 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

egnilges@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ed Nilges) writes:

>In article <1992Jul16.182834.18979@erg.sri.com> rat@erg.sri.com (Ray Trent) writes:
>>
>>Sigh. Ed's obviously taken "absolute freedom of speech" and
>>interpreted it as "absolute freedom to speak anywhere, at any time".

>Yeah, as they say in the Army, "there's always someone who doesn't get
>the word."  This is milspec for "there's always a goddamn barracks-room
>lawyer like Ed Nilges who deliberately refuses to see that there are
>unwritten laws, including 'absolute freedom of speech' means 'absolute
>freedom of speech for white guys'".

	Yeah, blacks don't have freedom of speech.  You're right.  I couldn't
possibly have heard Sister Souljah's call for genocide; the government must 
have censored it, so I must have imagined it.  2 Live Crew didn't win the 
right to distribute their pornographic message; that's all government 
propaganda.  Women don't have freedom of speech; Dworkin's latest book 
containing a call to gendercide never got published, and the whole set of 
feminist material is a figment of my imagination.
	Or, wait...I've got it!  2 live Crew, Sister Souljah and Dworkin are
all really white guys in disguise!  And without your help, Ed, I'd've never
figured it out...

>>that don't directly and immediately endanger the physical wellbeing of
>>individuals, prohibit the bringing of information to the public based
>>solely on the content or form of the information.

>Yeah, right, Viktora was, Paul-Revere like, trying to bring the word to
>the community that the coloreds were moving in.  Please what sort of
>"information" other than the informational content of an assault and
>prelude to battery does a burning cross constitute?  The Minneapolis law
>tried, in a good old American tradition of local government, to address
>the fact that existing civil and criminal laws against assault and
>battery do not suffice, and have never sufficed, to avoid inter-racial
>and inter-sexual assaults and batteries.  The SC struck down the law not
>because it was unjust or prohibited conduct that was just, but because
>of a completely spurious argument that the law addressed the "content"
>of speech...this when the SC had already said that you cannot address
>the FORM of speech, essentially making ANY law into a potential First
>Amendment case.  Yo, Clarence, form and content is the WHOLE ball game.

	Nope.  Form and content are and should be protected.  Invasion of
privacy shouldn't, and laws protecting privacy can be enforced without removing
reasonable public forums.  Laws prohibiting specific form or content of speech 
are illegal; regulating the when and where so that there is a reasonable public 
forum without committing an act that regardless of the speech would be a crime
would not be illegal.

Robert C.
-- 
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
	    elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.
From: charleen@ADS.COM (Charleen Bunjiovianna)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: sexism in health spas
Keywords: weights
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:26:18 GMT
Organization: The Original Estrogen-Crazed Lust Bunnies

In article <1992Jul28.153130.20520@unislc.uucp> kbiesel@unislc.uucp (Karen Biesel) writes:
>
>OK I'm bitter.  But is this common practice throughout, to have seperate
>exercise areas for men and women?  Is it men or women who are embarrassed to
>be looked at, or is this a Utah thing?
>
>Anyway, this is the first time I've been denied the use of exercise equipment
>because of my sex.  

Odds are it's the women customers who have demanded women-only areas, judging
from the fuss made around here at YWCAs, aerobics studios and the like.

Did you take a tour of the whole facility before you bought a membership?

Charleen

--
Never raise your hands to your kids.  It leaves your groin unprotected.
                    -- Red Buttons
From: slarsen@titian.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Right To Not Support
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:50:50 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame

In article <hppmq9_@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
>
[A lot of really good stuff deleted]
>
>In fact, if I recall the situation correctly, if the two people are
>not married, the father has no legal claim to the child unless she
>makes a bid for child support.  My point?  Suppose he wants the child
>and she doesn't but also doesn't want to have an abortion.  She
>decides to put the child up for adoption.  Well, wait a minute.  What
>about him?  It's his kid, too, isn't it?  Nope.  Now, things may have
>changed since last I looked into this, but the general trend for a
>time was that if he wanted the child, he had to formally petition for
>custody.

I believe some of these laws have changed or are changing, but in 
general, the perception I have is that the decision to put a child
up for adoption is "mother-favorable."

It is my belief that the inequities men face with regard to children
and the decision whether or not to become a parent is rooted not so 
much in the availability of abortions, but in the adoption laws.
Long before abortion was legalized, women could readily avoid 
parenthood by putting the child up for adoption.  Fathers were often 
not notified, nor was consent required when the child was born 
out of wedlock.  However, fathers could be dunned for support if 
the mother chose to raise the child.  The support collection 
mechanism may not have been as efficient then as now, but it 
existed.

I think that if we want to look at equalizing the father's legal 
role with regard to his children, then we should take a long, 
hard look at the adoption laws and whether or not BOTH parents 
have an equal right to voluntarily relinquish parental rights 
by using the adoption option.  And, in the alternative, whether 
BOTH parents have the right to automatic custody when the other 
would place a child for adoption. 

>To put it simply, men have very little choice about if and when they
>become parents when compared to women (yes, he can simply not have sex,
>but that's a trivial answer...what happens when sex *does* occur, birth
>control *is* used, and it fails?)  This hardly means that women "have
>it easy," but it does mean that the situation is unequal and seems to
>have little hope of being resolved in the future.

Sue Larsen
slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: rhadden@isdres.er.usgs.gov
Subject: RE: Providing internet access in a library
Organization: U.S. Geological Survey
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:14:14 GMT

Each library patron will have to be indivdually trained to use the Internet,
and every time they come to a "What do I do next?" point they call on the
librarian for help. This means that a computer system access to Internet,
which is not intuitive, wil be extraordinarily labor intensive for librarians,
who will have to give up necessary tasks to respond to parton demands for
time and attention. The just ain't enough staff in any library to hab handle
these requests.

Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: margaret@sfu.ca (Margaret Sharon)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:50:30 GMT

Carl M. Kadie writes
> [Follow up to a newspaper article reposted to
> alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk, news.admin, et al. - Carl]
> 
> The Toronto _Globe and Mail_ article says:
> 
> >"I said it was not an issue of censorship," said Lionel Tolan, Simon 
> >Fraser's director of academic computer services.
> ...
> >"It's the same as if somebody wants Playboy or Penthouse.  We don't 
> >have them in the university library.  If somebody wants them they can go 
> >to a bookstore and buy them.  Anybody wants access to the sex groups 
> >on the Internet, they can buy access through a local company."
> [...]
> 
> Many (most?) academic libraries *do* subscribe to _Playboy_. Can
> some check if S.F. gets _Playboy_?

Yes we do! 
--
Margaret M. Sharon, Academic Computing Services      margaret@sfu.ca
Simon Fraser University, Burnaby BC Canada V5A 1S6   604-291-4633
From: nancy@teal.csn.org (Nancy T. Lombardo)
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
Subject: Re: Providing internet access in a library
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:58:42 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

Money is a huge problem, but it is not the sole obstacle to offering
Internet access to the patrons at the library. There are many problems
associated with this proposal, but I believe they can be overcome with
some effort. One of the biggest problems is training, exacerbated by the
difficult interface most users encounter using the Internet. How many public
librarians know how to proficiently navigate the Internet themselves, let
alone feel confident enough to teach their patrons? Even with easy access
to an Internet account, many librarians feel too overwhelmed by the
multitude of electronic tools already at their disposal to see the value
of learning another, more cryptic and less organized tool for information
retrieval. Why go searching for an informational needle in the Internet
haystack when you can use DIALOG, on which you've had adequate training
and which meets your librarian's standards for logical and effective use?

Until the interface is improved, making the use of the Internet easy and
intuitive, librarians will be hesitant to expend much energy trying to
figure it out. I think there is also a perception that the general
public isn't interested in Internet access yet, that it's still the domain
of University researchers, Computer Science students and hackers. I think
this is false, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm convinced that the Internet is the
"virtual library" of the future, the electronic library we in the library
field have all been reading about for years now, but I'm having a hard
time convincing my peers. I administer an Internet account at Denver
Public Library and we have some 40 individual staff members with accounts,
yet only perhaps 6 are really using the accounts. Excuses given are not
enough time (true), hard to get to a machine with a modem (ours are
dial-in accounts), too difficult, what am I supposed to be using it for?
I'm working with our local supplier to develop a Gopher interface. Maybe
when that is installed, we'll see more interest. Our director is
interested in the idea of patron access, but until we staff know how to
use the tool ourselves, that will have to wait.

Nancy Lombardo
Denver Public Library
nancy@csn.org
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh)
Subject: Re: Providing internet access in a library
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:22:44 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

In article <1992Jul23.164326.18955@wpi.WPI.EDU> mfriley@pacman.WPI.EDU (Margaret F Riley) writes:
>
>I applaud you for this.   There are so few students now who read, and
>you have written a very good posting.   It is just that in the real world
>the libraries do not have enough money.  Period.
>
	Hm, I didn't realize that libraries were so short on funds. Damn. I
thought that it would be the jurisdiction of a library because it provides
information to the people.. but the funds problem *is* a problem.
-- 
  _Sameer_Parekh_zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM_zane@infopls.chi.il.us__________________
 / STOP The War on Rights          | | Restore liberty in the United States \
 | "Specialization is for Insects" | | Vote Libertarian 1992          ______/
 \________- Robert A. Heinlein_____/ \_ap.2363@cupid.sai.com (anon)__/
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: mesora@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rose Adams)
Subject: NET TRAIN went where?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 17:11:32 GMT


Does anybody know where NET-TRAIN went to?  I know they moved at the begining
of the month, but I lost their subscription address...

Please email and thanks in advance!


-- 
Rose M. Adams 				mesora@leland.stanford.edu
---<--<--<{@				A rose is a rose is rose
					(except when it is spelled backwards).
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn" (correction to previous post)
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:14:50 GMT


You may be interested in this document. Access information follows.

- Carl

=================
umanitoba.ca
=================
Information related to the alt.sex* ban at the Univerity
of Manitoba. Including:

1) The Canadian Library Association's Intellectual Freedom Statement
2) A statement arguing that newsgroups should be selected like library
material (w/ U.S. centered references)
3) An open letter from Brad Templeton to the U. of Manitoba
4) Information on the Canadian definition of obscenity
5) My comments on the U. of Manitoba's application of this definition.
6) History of the U. of Waterloo ban of rec.humor.funny and alt.sex*.
     (They eventually restored the newsgroups.)
7) Abstract of Stanford's Dr. John McCarthy talk about the Waterloo ban.
8) The new U of Wateroo policy and the report that justifies it.
9) Information about the Computers and Academic Freedom discussion group.
10) Article explaining why the U. of Toronto will not be banning newsgroups.

=================
=================

These document(s) are available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/umanitoba.ca

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom umanitoba.ca
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh)
Subject: Providing internet access in a library
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 04:56:22 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.


	I think this is doable.. to provide internet access to the PEOPLE,
one can set up telnet servers in a library.  Depending on how much it costs,
one can either charge users a fee for a telnet-card, or if it cheap they can
just use their library card. (In this way there isn't the problem of not
knowing who is using the telnet server and system cracking is traceable to a
specific person.)
	People can be informed about cheap internet-UNIX accounts, including
netcom which is only about $20/month but tough to use, or The Well, which
charges an hourly fee but has some extra newsgroups which, because of the
smaller community, have a higher signal-to-noise ratio.
	I don't think this would be all that expensive, given that a leased
line will only cost some $250/mont.. I have no idea how much terminals
cost.  Additionally, if people don't want to an account, they can still
telnet to MUDs, the IRC, or archie and ftp some information which they need.
(The plan I have about ftp is kinda unclear-- have a floppy drive attached
to the terminal so that ftp can store files on floppies which the user
brings in or buys, and have printers (quiet ones, of course) so that people
without computers at home can print out the files they retrieve via ftp..
	What do librarians think of this idea?
	(I'm just a high school student who is going to the local library
nealy every three days-- It's summer I MUST READ!!)
-- 
  _Sameer_Parekh_zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM_zane@infopls.chi.il.us__________________
 / STOP The War on Rights          | | Restore liberty in the United States \
 | "Specialization is for Insects" | | Vote Libertarian 1992          ______/
 \________- Robert A. Heinlein_____/ \_ap.2363@cupid.sai.com (anon)__/
From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
Subject: Re: How do we use a huge library?
Date: 23 Jul 1992 18:54:23 GMT
Organization: Dread Zepplin Fan Club
NNTP-Posting-Host: earlybird

Henry Choy writes:

>Suppose that a computer system generates tons of useful information
>and plunks it into a public library. Further suppose that the
>information is in pretty raw form; the uses for this information are
>not demonstrated by far. One of the bottlenecks in showing how
>information to be used is that you tend to say "this piece of 
>data can be used for bloody well everything". Determining the
>uses for the information may be a much greater task than discovering
>the information itself. How can this information be organized so
>that people can find and use a lot of it?

I think history has shown that one doesn't always know in
advance the utility or importance of a particular piece of
information, i.e., it's value to future researchers: the
location of black gooey stuff in various parts of Texas
was fairly unimportant until the internal combustion engine
came along.

Therefore, one's accuracy in determining the usefulness of a
piece of information is probably inversely proportional to
the length of time in the future one is trying to determine.

That obfuscation being pronounced, how can information be
organized, particularly "huge chunks" that may or may not
be related (in terms of computerized information). 

I think the use of hypertext is the way to go, if it isn't
too much of a bureaucratic headache. Hypertext of course,
begs the question of how and which links to set up in the
first place, but I think that's a bit more straightforward.

Dano
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: cfkfb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Karl Bridges)
Subject: seeking rare book to photocopy
Summary: Want to find copy of rare book for research
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:54:14 GMT

 I am seeking th following item:

      From the chapter 'Truth' in 'Rational meaning : a new foundation
for the definition of words' by Laura Riding Jackson
Berkhamsted, UK:Priapus Press, 1975 OCLC#16376798

This is a rare edition (only 45 copies) and the libraries I have
contacted have been unwilling to allow photocopying of the edition.  I
have the full OCLC record if anyone wants additional information.
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: ECL4JMS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jeff Suttor)
Subject: Internet Accessable Librarys (parsable list)
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:44:21 PDT

Am looking for a 'parsable' copy of the St George list.  (IE
something that was WAISed.)  The straight text file is ambiguous
when parsed.

Thanks,

Jeff Suttor                    Pgmr/Analyst  Library Information Systems
University Research Library    (310)825-1206 FAX:(310)206-4109
405 Hilgard Avenue             ECL4JMS@UCLAMVS
Los Angeles, CA  90024-1575    ECL4JMS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: margaret@sfu.ca (Margaret Sharon)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn" (correction to previous post)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:18:16 GMT

> Carl M. Kadie writes
> > [Follow up to a newspaper article reposted to
> > alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk, news.admin, et al. - Carl]
> > 
> > The Toronto _Globe and Mail_ article says:
> > 
> > >"I said it was not an issue of censorship," said Lionel Tolan, Simon 
> > >Fraser's director of academic computer services.
> > ...
> > >"It's the same as if somebody wants Playboy or Penthouse.  We don't 
> > >have them in the university library.  If somebody wants them they can go 
> > >to a bookstore and buy them.  Anybody wants access to the sex groups 
> > >on the Internet, they can buy access through a local company."
> > [...]
> > 
> > Many (most?) academic libraries *do* subscribe to _Playboy_. Can
> > some check if S.F. gets _Playboy_?

Correction to my previous posting: SFU did subscribe to Playboy but doesn't  
anymore (as of sometime this year, if I read the catalogue entry correctly). 
 
--
Margaret M. Sharon, Academic Computing Services      margaret@sfu.ca
Simon Fraser University, Burnaby BC Canada V5A 1S6   604-291-4633
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: referenc@bingaixa.cc.binghamton.edu ()
Subject: Re: Providing internet access in a library
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:58:59 GMT

>>but the funds problem *is* a problem.

"a" problem? how about THE problem?

R.
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk