From: pjm@anegada.sps.mot.com (Patrick J. McGuinness)
Subject: Re: "American Ideals" (was: AMERICA IN DECLINE)
Organization: SSDT SPS, Motorola Inc., Austin TX
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:07:39 GMT

In article <Bs1vCI.Hs3@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>I write:
>>                          With the collapse of the USSR, the
>>world is increasingly turning to the "western" powers, and to 
>>America especially, to find the political and economic ideas that
>>can make their societies develop and prosper.

In article <Bs1vCI.Hs3@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  But that doens't necessarily mean it's sensible to do so.   The US
>  has, by a wide margin, the highest rate of violent crime in the 
>  world (source: Senate Juciciary Committee Report, March 13, 1991, 
>  FBI stats).  We have much lower math and science test scores than a
>  large number of our economic competitors, while at the same time
>  spending  more money per pupil on education (source: 1991 ETS).
>  We spend far more on a per-capita basis on health care than any
>  nation in the world, while having higher infant mortality and 
>  lower lifespans than many other major countries (source: 1987,
>  1988, 1989 OECD stats).    We have an appalling rate of unwed 
>  motherhood (25% overall, 60% among blacks, source: CDC, 1991) 
>  We have a 7.8% and growing unemployment rate (generally considered
>  to be an underestimate since it only counts those who show up at
>  the Unemployment office) -- Business Week predicts it will exceed 
>  8% before the election.   We are losing our innovative edge: 4 of
>  the top 5 **US** patent grantees in 1991 were Japanese, Eastman
>  Kodak was the only exception.  We have a homeless problem, a serious
>  drug addiction problem, and a truly astounding level of personal
>  and corporate debt (people sometimes overlook this when talking 
>  about the government budget deficit -- US financial irresponsibility
>  is not limited to politicians).   

This "victory abroad, malaise at home" issue is beeing highlighted
in a WSJ article today. I thought it was an interesting coincidence.
I have no quarrel with Mr Nelson's points.  He is quite on target
with most of his points. I should note however, that the
crime/illegitimacy stats have existed for the last 30 years.
Crime in America was actually fairly low from about 1840 to 1920.
It grew enourmously in the 1960's and since.
And of course, illegitimacy has skyrocketed only in the last 20 years.
Similarly, we had one of the finest general public education systems
in the world earlier in the century.

To me, it suggests less a problem with American ideals of our
first 170 years, but with our social fabric and social policies in
the last 30 years. 

Perhaps the world has taken notice of that.
The students of Tianenman square echoed the statements of
Jefferson and Lincoln, and not LBJ.

>>Twenty years ago, only a fraction (I would guess 15%) of the people
>>in the world lived in democratic countries, and socialistic
>>central planning was the modus operandi of most third world countries.
>
>  That socialism collapsed is a bit of a straw man since anyone with
>  half a brain could see that it was a failure from the beginning; 
>  it was only supported by fanatics and maintained at the point of a
>  gun.   Nor is it clear what is replacing it:  Are you willing to
>  predict with confidence that the XSSR and eastern European nations
>  will maintain their little democratic and capitalist experiments?
>  I'm sure not.

I *will*. I further predict that China will democratize within
the next 20 years.

>  Also, while socialism collapsed, the social-democratic nations of
>  western Europe such as Germany, Denmark, The Netherlands, etc, all
>  best the US in a number of important measures of social success
>  and progress.   And more troubling, at least to individualists like
>  myself is the rise of the Pacific Rim economies.  Singapore has the 
>  the fastest growing economy in the world today and many other such
>  nations are not far behind.  But their social philosophy is quite
>  alien to the individualistic American one, which they regard to be
>  a kind of quaint affectation. 

Economic growth will lead to middle class demand for democratization
and human rights (usually with students in the vanguard of demands).
That is what's happened in Korea and Tiawan.


>>In the next twenty years, most countries will embrace democracy and
>>will develop market-oriented economies.   American ideals
>>will increasingly become world-wide ideals. 
>
>  See the above.  Our success in spreading our ideals will be a direct
>  function of our success in *making our society work*.  It isn't enough
>  just to point out that we outlasted the USSR; foreigners can read
>  their papers or turn on their TVs and see the urban hell that once
>  great US cities like New York or Detroit have become; they can see
>  thousands of people lines up for a handful of jobs at new shopping
>  malls, they can even see the decadance of US popular culture (I should 
>  point out that I travel a great deal and I can assure you that our
>  culture is no longer universally admired and emulated as it may have
>  been a few decades ago).

All I can do is applaud the wisdom of other cultures in resisting
our own culture. :-)

>Newly emerging democratic nations have a
>  lot of models to choose from, not just the US one:  Western Europe,
>  Japan, Singapore, and others
>
>  So rather than breaking our arms patting ourselves on the back, we 
>  should take a sober look at the serious problems that confront us.
>
>
>---peter

P. McGuinness

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