HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Subject: Re: Trail map of California
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 17:51:30 GMT

|> 	Where can i find the most "complete and recent" maps of the
|> hiking trails in CALIFORNIA ?

The Wilderness Press maps are excelent.  They cover many California mountain
regions, especially in the Sierras.  They take the USGS quads and did their
own surveys to make corrections.  Most of the USGS stuff was last surveyed in
the 1950s, so the trail and road info is mostly wrong.

There's another outfit that does similar stuff, but only for National Parks.
Sorry, I don't remember their name, but you can find their maps in most
camping stores.

Also check out the Forest Service maps.  Many of these have been updated
recently (at least for official trails).  The maps of Federal wilderness
areas are generally topographic.

Finally, check local sources.  Most state and local parks will sell you
current hiking maps for a minimal fee.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bi045@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John A. Purbrick)
Subject: Re: tent (?) question
Reply-To: bi045@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John A. Purbrick)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 05:15:28 GMT


In a previous article, rob@rips.UUCP (Rob Savoye) says:
>jkwatson@amherst.edu writes:
>>A friend and I are planning to hike a good portion of the AT this summer. I've
>>been given a copy (1974 edition) of _The New Complete Walker_.  Fletcher
>>suggests quite forcefully that if one is going to be backpacking in the 
>>summer, not to use a tent.
>
>  On many parts of the AT there are three walled shelters you can stay in. 
>Rob Savoye                                             rips!rob@solbourne.com

I've never hiked much on the AT, but I've stayed for 3 weeks in separate years
at the Upper Goose Pond cabin in western Mass, and talked to a lot of hikers.
Very few of them carry tents; they say it's too much weight and the shelters,
though they do have problems, are mostly adequate. Most newly constructed
shelters are being put fairly far from the nearest road access, in order to 
discourage casual use and also on the principle that vandals won't have the 
energy to do much damage after walking in.

If it's bug season, you might consider a mosquito net that covers just the top 
part of your bag--REI and Campmor have them.



-- 
John Purbrick
jpexg@lcs.mit.edu [preferred]
bi045@cleveland.freenet.edu [also works]
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Re: Helicopter Access (was: Alaskan Heliskiing)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 22:41:32 GMT

In <1992Apr13.175552.6149@tc.fluke.COM> lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog) writes:
>Helicopters don't extend the limits of the possible really, but they
>greatly alter the style of a trip.  Fifty years ago climbers
>approached Mt. Waddington by bushwacking from the sea.  Thirty years
>ago, they hiked from Tellot Lake after landing in a float plane.
>Today, they land right on the glacier in a helicopter.  I've done it
>myself.  The Coast Mountains have become a smaller place because of
>helicopters.

We should expand the areas in which helicopters are not permitted.  Some
areas would already be protected from helicopters, presumably national
parks in Canada (ie. Banff, Jasper) and designated wilderness areas.

Assiniboine Provincial Park in BC (on the border with Banff national park)
tries to compromise on the question by permitting helicopter access to 
the lodge in the park on certain days of the week.  The brochure for the
park suggests that if you don't like helicopters you shouldn't visit the
park on the days they are permitted!
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"My Canada includes Quebec"
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:05:14 GMT
Subject: Re: tent (?) question
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

> You'll probably find that you won't die or be carried off by anything
> and the experience can be magnificent.

This is true.  I've especially enjoyed tentless nights on mountaintops.
However, a counterpoint:  When you are sleeping, or trying to sleep,
what matters most is warmth and comfort, including calm (not wind).  You
might as well be in a tent.

Where the difference is perceived is in hauling the tent around, setting
it up, taking it down, and those moments before falling asleep, while
waking up, and perhaps if you awake during the night and want to gaze at
the stars.  (In my case I have to warm and defog my glasses first anyway.  :-)

> If you're concerned about a nighttime rainstorm, set up a tent but sleep
> outside; you can crawl into the tent on a moment's notice.

Yes, this has worked very well for me.
From: terwill@quark2.aero.org (Bill who?)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Three Brothers still Three Brothers?
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:24:00 GMT
Reply-To: terwill@arecibo.aero.org
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Back in March (?) one of the rain storms that came through Central
California "seriously" undermined one of the spires of the Three
Brothers (part of Yosemite Valley) and I have heard nothing since. 

Are they now Two Brothers? 

Bill

"My opinions are my own and consistantly found to be in error by others"
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Rails to Trails (Was: Abandoned places)
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:47:25 GMT

From article <1992Apr7.225512.5510@cheshire.oxy.edu>,
by tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada):

>      I can't resist putting in a plug for a non-profit organization called
> the Rails-to-Trails Confederacy

Yes!  I'm involved with a rails-to-trails conversion in Iowa, the Hoover
Nature Trail, from Cedar Rapids to Burlington (around 80 miles).  The
railroad was abandoned in 1984, and the conversion began in 1989.  We now
have 15 miles of trail open (in two discontinuous pieces), and we have
unstable claims to about 80 percent of the right-of-way.

I've personally seen to the painting of two old railroad signals, and we
have some stone bridges that date back to the 1880's along the trail.
The railroad fenced its right-of-way before the adjacent land was opened
to farming, and the result is that in many places, the land on each side
of the trail is virgin tallgrass prairie -- rare stuff!

> One of the biggest problems is the adjoining landowners, who sometimes
> think that the rights of way should revert to them.

In the case of the Hoover Nature Trail, the 5 year lapse between railroad
abandonment and the start of trail acquisition means that the right-of-way
did revert to adjacent landowners.  The HNT organization has been buying
it back, a job made easier because many adjacent landowners never paid
realestate taxes on the right-of-way after abandonment, therefore never
sealing their claim to the land.

On the other hand, there are places where the county platt books show
the Hoover Nature Trail as the owner, but the adjacent landowners have
built fences across it.  In those places, the HNT clearly has a job to do
to keep peace with its neighbors.

                                        Doug Jones
                                        jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: abyingto@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com (Angela Byington)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:38:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: hp-vcd.2660010
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA


This information is really valuable, and I hope everyone reads it.

One thing I thought was interesting was the discussion about
rationing food and water.  I took a class in survival skills
and the theory there was to NOT ration your food or water,
especially in a hot climate.  I know this goes against intuition,
but the theory goes like this:  When you are in a survival
situation, the first few hours or days are the critical ones.
In that time, if you are 100 percent or close, you can alter
your situation to make it easier to get through the parts
later for when you aren't 100 percent.  Examples:  gathering
firewood, building shelters, building devices to extract
water in hot climates, finding water sources, etc.  So, you're
better of eating and drinking and working at 100 percent for
the first bit, rather than putting yourself at less that 100
percent by rationing.

When you combine that with the information that most survival
situations are very short (a few days or less, provided you
follow the appropriate procedures), you're better off to
eat and drink then not.

You also said that water comes way before food in the priority
list.  SO true!  Also contrary to intuition, (and your hunger
pangs.)  The way we learned it was with the 4 balances necessary
for survival.  These are listed in order of priority, based on
which can cause your demise in the shorter amount of time.

	1) Psychological.  (This can get you instantly.)
	2) Thermal. (A matter of a few hours.)
	3) Hydration. (3-6 days)
	4) Energy (food).  (Takes 4-6 weeks.)

Just a little more food for thought,

-Angela
abyingto@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:21:31 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <2660010@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com> abyingto@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com (Angela Byington) writes:

>One thing I thought was interesting was the discussion about
>rationing food and water.  I took a class in survival skills
>and the theory there was to NOT ration your food or water,
>especially in a hot climate.  I know this goes against intuition,
>but the theory goes like this:  When you are in a survival
>situation, the first few hours or days are the critical ones.
>In that time, if you are 100 percent or close, you can alter
>your situation to make it easier to get through the parts
>later for when you aren't 100 percent.  Examples:  gathering
>firewood, building shelters, building devices to extract
>water in hot climates, finding water sources, etc.  So, you're
>better of eating and drinking and working at 100 percent for
>the first bit, rather than putting yourself at less that 100
>percent by rationing.

Well, I have to disagree.  There may be times when you need to burn
a lot of energy fast to construct a shelter or something similar.
However usually this only lasts for a couple of hours.  Generally
you can take your time and reduce the energy expenditure.  If you
work slowly you can get by with less than 100% hydration and energy
level.  It won't be pleasant but it can be done.  When I was on my
high school wrestling team I literally went months dehydrated and
starving to keep my weight down.  During that time I was able to
keep up with my studies, milk my dad's cows, and participate in a
rather vigorous sport.

Building shelters:  Unless the weather is really bad you can take a
long time and save energy.

Finding water:  A solar still doesn't take much energy to build.
However if a practical source of clean water can be had, by all
means put it near the top of your priority list.  Except in really
nasty weather having plenty of water may be the most important thing
you need.


Gathering firewood:  If it is to be had you have plenty of time to
gather it.  Don't push it.  You can still haul firewood when you are
dehydrated and starving.

Of course if you just have to burn off some nervous energy, by all
means use it to do something constructive, not just walk around.
Remember, however that doing things fast takes more energy than
taking your time.
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Opinions on pots...
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:01:23 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Mar31.184309.18617@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> schaefer@young.ece.cmu.edu (Roland Schaefer) writes:

>Putting aside my fear of opening another hornets nest in trying to elicit
>peoples opinions on a subject matter, I have this question...

>What are the advantages of Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel pots.

Aluminum is lighter and a much better conductor of heat.  Unless stainless
is the expensive stuff that is very thick, heavy, and clad with copper it 
will tend to develop hot spots that cause food to stick and burn.

Some people believe there is a causal link between aluminum and 
Alzheimer's disease.


-- 

John Reece			
Intel spokesman?  Not!           
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,ott.events
From: jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John Stewart)
Subject: Canoe Club Openhouse, April 10
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: ont
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:52:48 GMT

                      Canoe Club Openhouse
                        April 10, 7:30pm
                           Downtown Y

Discover the beauty and splendour of the outdoors with the Ottawa Y Canoe
Camping Club.  An extensive program of flat and white water trips ranging
from a day to a week or more, is offered from early May to late September.
Destinations include Algonquin Park, the Gatineau, the Ottawa River and
Laverendrye Park.  A family program provides club members with the 
opportunity to take their children on canoe trips.
 
Club Trips

All club trips are run on a co-operative basis, with everyone having the
opportunity to help plan and carry them out.  The club supplies most of the
group equipment for club trips -- canoes, tents, cooking utensils, etc. -- at
a cost of approximately half of what a commercial outfitter would charge.  All
you need to bring is your personal gear -- clothing, pack, sleeping bag, paddle
and personal flotation device.  Food costs, transportation costs and other
miscellaneous trip expenses are shared by the participants.
 
Training

If you have never canoed or camped before, do not dispair!  Early in the
season, both flatwater and white water training sessions will be offered.
There will also be lots of opportunities to learn basic camping skills.
 
Membership

The only requirements for joining are an interest in canoeing, being 18
years of age or older, and payment of the membership fee of $37 plus GST.

Additional Information

For more information on the club attend the Openhouse or contact
one of the following members of the club executive:

President               Judy Patterson       232-2236
Whitewater Coordinator  Phil Green           225-2605
Flatwater Coordinator   Don Haines           820-9245
Family Coordinator      Leigh Stewart        729-1841
-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca or Mr.Canoehead@algonquin.carleton.ca  
"My Canada includes Quebec"
From: richh@TIGGER.JVNC.NET (RICHH)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: is it cold out?
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:40:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: tigger.199204132040.AA08083
Keywords: brrr
Reply-To: Casey J.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
 
Well?
From: cv0q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chad R. Vizino)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Stove For Sale
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:38:27 GMT
Organization: Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

For Sale for Tinkerers or those in need of MiniStove
spare parts:

Description:
	Hank Roberts Mark III MiniStove (backpacking stove).
	Looks like a large yo-yo when collapsed.  See
	*The Complete Walker III* by Colin Fletcher for more
	information.

Fuel Type:
	LP Gas Cartridge (uses Optimus 702 cartridge for
	731 stove).

Condition:
	Used--needs adjustment.

Weight:
	8oz. (w/o cartridge).

Fuel Weight:
	10oz. (full cartridge), 3oz. (empty cartridge).

Burn Time:
	160min.

Boil Time (1 qt. water):
	7min.


I will accept the best offer and will include three full fuel
cartridges for stove (sorry fuel cannot be mailed/shipped).

  Chad Vizino
  Carnegie Mellon University
  4400 Fifth Ave., MI403
  Pittsburgh, PA  15213
  (412)268-5868
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sanjay@media.mit.edu (Sanjay Manandhar)
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 19:01:01 GMT

In article <9411@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite) writes:
>A while back I posted an article on how to avoid getting lost.  It
>was fairly well received and also generated some additional good
>suggestions.  I thought I would post something on what to do if you
>do get lost (something I do *not* recommend).  I regard this as more
>of a starting point than any sort of definitive "last word" on the
>subject and invite others to reply with their comments and ideas.  
>Most of this is based on the U.S.A. but I am using a worldwide 
>distrubution for two reasons:
>
>1.  I suspect much of the "civilized" world will be similar in many
>important respects.

What is your definition of "civilized"? Do you mean computerized or
industrialized? Sometimes people use the words interchangeably
implying that less-industrialized countries are not as "civilized". As
the industrial revolution backlashes perhaps the less-industrialized
countries will be deemed more "civilized."

That was a comment. To the point, it is easy to get lost in countries
which are not as computerized or as industrialized as well and similar
advice of commonsense apply.

sanjay

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
Sanjay Manandhar  MIT Media Laboratory       sanjay@media-lab.media.mit.edu
                  Siemens-Nixdorf Info Systems          sanjaym@sni-usa.com
                  Cambridge, Massachusetts. USA              (617) 349-5047
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (anmar mirza)
Subject: Re: Survival skills
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 18:45:17 GMT

In article <1992Apr17.173047.23268@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> akarpowicz@mta.ca writes:
>
>Following the recent discussion on "getting lost" I would like to know
>what are the merits of learning survival skills in a survival school.
>I understand such schools teach how to survive indefinitely living
>off the land with no or min. equipment. I guess it could be very
>useful and would greatly reduce fear and stress of getting lost.
>Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Being at ease when you are out in the wild is very important.  When I
first started hiking and generally being outdoors I had virtually no
knowledge of the environment I was entering.  Gradually natural
curiousity, and a tendency towards self-sufficiency led me to
investigate "what ifs".  The more I learned how to live off the land,
the more comfortable I got while out.  No longer is the worry about
"what if I lose my equipment?", or "did I bring enough?".  Getting
lost stopped becoming a fear because I knew that it was not a
life-threatening situation, plus I was more aware of my surroundings
so the tendency to get lost in the first place is reduced.
Once you lose your fear of the what-ifs, you will gain a greater
appreciation of where you are.

Survival schools can be very helpful in pointing you towards learning
self-sufficiency, but you shouldn't assume that just because you have
taken the class that you can do it.  The skills need to be used once
in a while, else they atrophy, prove to yourself that you *can* do it,
not just that you *think* you can.  

Survival schools come and go.  Try to find one that teaches you how to
live *with* the land, not one that pits you against the land.  If you
cannot find one, get some of the books by Tom Brown, or other authors,
and practice the skills until you can do them easily.



-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! Not IU's!# Support Search
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! # and Rescue,
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion# GET LOST!
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #
From: kristian@siri.unit.no (Kristian Martinsen)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Arcos Equipe 2000 Telemarkboots, need advice
Summary: Good?
Date: 9 Apr 92 09:21:06 GMT
Organization: University of Trondheim

I have used a pair of Arcos Equipe 2000 Telemarkboots this winter, and
I'm mostly staisfied with the boots. But now is the sewing in the
front of boots staring loosening. One of the bucles are slightly
brooken too. The dealer says I can have a new pair of boots next
winter (no boots are produced now), or the money back.

Have anybody out there any experiences with this boots? Are the not
lasting as long as for example Asolo boots? The alternative from Asolo
must be Extreme Racer. Have anybody used this boots with climbing
skins? How does the buckels work? I have tried a pair of Asolo Extreme
pro, but i did'nt like them. The buckels press the leather in making
the boots very uncomfortable, and they gives not enough stabilization. 

My Email adress until 18. July 92 is martinsen@prime.ntb.ch

Kristian Martinsen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rauletta@sitevax.gmu.edu (R. J. Auletta)
Subject: Applachian Trail Conference (was tent)
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:13:48 GMT


The Applachian Trail Conference (ATC) through a small central
staff and four field offices provides services in the following
areas:

 Trail Management
 Trail Protection
 Information

 ATC is the central clearinghouse for information about the Applachian Trail.
 These includes guidebooks, maps, and other information about every
 section of the trail, in addition to manuals on trail design and maintenance
 and a variety of other publications for Trail users.

 I would suggest all those contemplating a hike on the AT (day or longer)
 to contact the ATC and *join* to show your support for America's first
 national scenic trail.
   
  Appalachian Trail Conference
  Washington and Jackson Streets
  P.O. Box 807
  Harpers Ferry, West Virginia 25425
  304/535-6331


  -R J Auletta
From: Ecology Center Fund <ecologycntr@igc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Date: 09 Apr 92 16:40 PDT
Subject: Re: clip flashlight
Nf-ID: #R:1992Apr09.163454.15960@bmerh2.bn:1632820464:cdp:1449600005:000:587
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ecologycntr    Apr  9 16:40:00 1992


I have a Clip Flashlight and i like it a lot.  It IS small: two people much
bigger than 160 lbs each using the tent better be GOOD friends.  And there
isn't much room to sit up, unless you're real short: not a good tent for 
a five day rainstorm.

But I like mine.  It vents well, which allows you to stay pretty dry.  Unless
your tentmate inexplicably sleeps with his head at the foot end, which happened
once in my tent, condensation is not a problem.  It sheds rain nicely.  And
though it is not freestanding, this means your unstaked tent will never blow 
away in the wind. :)
chris
From: grs01168@stat.appstate.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: 1 week free any suggestions where to go
Date: 14 Apr 92 22:38:18 EDT
Organization: Appalachian State University

We have 2 plane tickets to wherever in the USA we want to go.  So the question
is where to go?   We are looking to do some backpacking, and maybe some trout
fishing.  We have a 2 year old who may or maynot be with us, but either way 
we probably only have a week.  Any sugestions for places we could spend a fun
week.  If our 2 year old comes with us we may want to "car camp" and do day
hikes.  Please feel free to email any responses.  Thanks in advance
Connie
grs01168@stat.appstate.edu