From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: whatever . . .
Organization: TFS
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:37:20 GMT

cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>>pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>>>It's been my experience that when there's one man with a group of women,
>>> the man gets ignored entirely.
>>
>>It must be he's boring, or they're ignoring circumstances.
>>Sorry. Were I there, I would consume the resources.
>>
>>None of us are ultimately stupid [...]

>Perhaps not, but you have managed to come across as clueless, sexist,
>arrogant and egotistical all at the same time. No doubt, stupidity will
>ultimately follow.

If you want to flame, let's do it. I'll take the liberty of translating
"have managed to come across as" as "are", since you're not looking for
anything positive in what I write. I also voice you as endorsing Ellen's
original note, which may be unfair. I think it's also only fair to say
that I am responding to my take on Ellen's intentions in writing that bit,
since more might have been in her mind than I got. She could address that.

If I were a woman out there with you and one man on that raft, maybe I'd be
the only female to think to include the guy out of my *feminine* qualities.

This is a favorite image unliberated women carry, about how they will pack
together and ignore the male, probably to punish him for their insecurities,
so far as I can tell.

Since my image is inclusive and yours is exclusive, I think 'sexist' does not
apply to me - woe to me to have been born a male to be braying how much I like
females; only females are entitled to admire females, if I get you right.

Back on that raft from above, I'd be involved with him (this other person).
Seems you'd be looking for pals to spite him.

As far as cluelessness is concerned, do the following. Reread what I originally
wrote. Write down the specific things that made you angry - tone of voice, etc.
These are the things that make you feel insulted as a 'woman'.

Now, read it again. This time, consider how I am asking the scenario to play
out, instead of Ellen's ending. Please compare a generalization of the world
I ask for with a generalization of the world she describes. Ask in either world
who you can find who feels left out and made to feel worthless. In my world,
nobody is left out. In Ellen's, the male is left out. An average mature female,
as I understand how they have been programmed by the 'vicious male world',
would implicitly understand the pain the male would feel, and consider to try
to help him. Tell me what set of values it is where you and your friends enjoy
to play "exclusion games" and feel smug about it. I suggest your anger with
me is that I am calling you on this, albeit in a negative way (and for that
I apologize).

I regard myself to be a spirit being without a gender identification except on
the physical plane. I was born male, so I should do a good job of being male.
I was also born human, and I should do a good job of that too.
I believe a world where people love each other is a lot more viable than one
where they don't. I would never excuse myself of being an asshole by passing
it off on being male. I don't think you're entitled to live in a new
double-standard world where women call the shots; to want that is to be
dwelling in fantasies of revenge. I never authorized a world in which women,
or men for that matter, would be treated as less than equal merely on account
of gender, and I intend to fight such a thing wherever I find it. I found it
in what Ellen wrote, and you're defending it. I can't blame you for whatever
rage you feel; I feel plenty of it myself. But don't try to pass off bigotry
under the banner of 'women vindicated'. The vindicated woman is the man's
equal, not his 'trainer', his 'owner', his 'judge' or his 'executioner'.

Men would love to work it out with women through feminine archetypes, but
it seems many women really do have more work to do towards self-possession
on the masculine archetypal model, if the only way they can feel empowered
is through banding together to dangle the power of acceptance over the male's
head and have him jump through hoops. In my whole life I have met maybe two
males who actually took pleasure in hurting or rejecting females. You hold up
this ignore-the-guy image like some victory and defend it like some cherished
virtuous female rite. Men don't want to castrate women, and I think they're
going to have to come out big time to say they don't like women who hold
male-bashing parties Tuesday and expect to be courted on Wednesday.

I have no problem owning to being arrogant and egotistical, because (a) I'm
also gentle, sweet, sensitive and caring, and my heart is in the right place,
(b) I compulsively reflect upon myself and my actions to decide if what I'm
doing is right, and I try to gather information that will integrate me into
the world.

I know that hurting people is wrong, I know that negative responses and attacks
mostly bid the same. I'm trying to smooth my rough edges and to mature as
quickly as possible. I also need to establish my identity firmly and I do
that by standing in opposition to things and by practicing what I already am.
One of my most cherished instincts is to put my male energy in service to a
feminine ideal: if I see someone abusing someone else, I reflexively want to
attack the abuser, because I was that abused person. If I were on your raft,
I still would be. I don't know what kind of pain gives you to attack me.
If you want to tell me so I can share with you, then do that.

This man on the raft, curious how who he is, is of no interest as to whether he
will be ignored.

Think about whether enjoying to hurt someone because you can is a value you
really hold. You have many fine things to use out of the male archetype.
Choosing only those male traits which you complain are what abuse you is
to remain other-defined and a victim.

Your
angry, artistic, arrogant, brooding, charming, childish, compassionate, complex,
considerate, defensive, depressed, egocentric, eloquent, feminine, feral,
generous, gracious, intelligent, intuitive, judgemental, laughing, loving,
malevolent, masculine, mindful, nice, perceptive, playful, reflective,
sensitive, selfish, serious, strong, sweet, technical, tender, thoughtful,
thoughtless, voracious, vulnerable, weak and wise
Servant,
-ecsd
Newsgroups: soc.bi