From: tarra@skat.usc.edu (Tom)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: This "Frat" discussion...
Date: 5 Nov 1992 13:53:42 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu

In article <Bx9HEE.1oG@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney) writes:
>In article <1d9amtINN3q0@skat.usc.edu> tarra@skat.usc.edu (Tom) writes:
>
>He posted a nice bibliography last spring.  You have someone read parts of
>some of the books to you sometime.  Unfortunately, none of them have many
>pictures.

It's good to see an intelligent comment that doesn't use any personal attack.
I would imagine if you were confident in your argument that you wouldn't need
to use such tactics.  I'd also have to assume because of your posts either you
or someone you know had a bad experience with the greek system because of your
bitterness, this would make you biased and take away from the validity of 
anything you say but I could be wrong about you personally.
>
>
>The proof is in the pudding.  Around here, that statement means that until I
>see it, I won't believe it.  I've been hearing about these great changes since
>I entered college 6 years ago.  I've not seen anything improve.

I don't care what you think of the Fraternity system and I don't have to 
prove myself innocent because I'm in a frat nor does anyone else.  If you 
want some evidence of a good frat system try this.  At USC the Fraternity
system GPA is above the all University average despite the fact that they
average our grades in with the all University average.  And another improve-
ment is the current trend of Risk Management.  My national fraternity has
implemented a plan where every chapter has to have a Risk Management officer
that serves on the Executive Committee along with the other officers and
every chapter has to have insurance guarding against accidents (which by  the
way is ridiculously expensive).
>
>
>Really?  Then let's see the numbers for the rest of the university.  Let's see
>some national averages.  I challenge you to find one (note: just *one*)
>legitimate study that shows that, on the average, fraternities have a lower
>rape rate than the rest of the campus.  Your local women's studies department
>is a great place to start :)

Well let's see.  Since I have been here at SC I have seen in the paper at 
least three a year, (by non frat members)before that I'm not sure of the 
numbers.  Despite this fact, the University itself has implemented policies 
which disallows frat houses to host parties on Week Nights or to have females
in private rooms where alcohol is being served.  This happens primarily because
fraternities are highly visible and attract more media attention than non
greeks.
>

>Again, I'm just asking for some numbers.  I'm not calling you a rapist, that's
>not something I have knowledge of.  However, chances are much higher that you
>are, since you're in a fraternity.  That's statistics, and yes, that is a 
>generalization.  That's what statistics do.

Then are you saying if I were from Washington DC that it is more likely that
I would be a murderer?  Statistics often lie or are unrelated.

>Instead, you resort to personal attacks and childish defenses.
>Rather than adding to this flame war, why not do some research.  If you can't
>do it, then don't post drivel.  It's already been done.
>
I would call your attention to your first comment about the book with few 
pictures when talking about personal attacks.  Why don't you read your own
posts before posting them?  As far as drivel, you haven't given one statistic
yourself.  You merely allude to stats posted a year ago.

>As for your last statement on discrimination, it makes me laugh.  An
>organization that excludes women and gays, (I would say blacks and foreigners,
>but I've have to go to the library first) is more along the lines of
>Webster's definition of discrimination.
>
Well you should have gone to the library first.  There are no written rules 
against homosexuals.  We have had homosexual members in the past in my own
house, we don't have any policy regarding homosexuals period.  As far as women
go, I will say again as in another post, that Women are excluded by definition.
A fraternity is a BROTHERHOOD.  A men's organization.  The military has more
rules regarding Women and Homosexuals than any fraternity.  As far as blacks 
and foreigners go, my fraternity nationally states that no person shall be 
denied membership based on their race or nationality.  We are an inter-
national fraternity with houses in foreign countries.  Your implication is 
offensive.  I'm sure several of the black members of my house would have a
problem with your statements as well.

>Get back with us when you found those numbers we're asking for.  That should
>keep you occupied.... for life.
>
Well as long as we are avoiding personal attacks and drivel I'll just leave 
that one alone.

Tom



-- 
"Chicks dig me because I rarely wear underwear"  
					Bill Murray