HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Majority funding (was: Sex ed in school)
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:58:12 GMT
Reply-To: Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Organization: Dave_Wetzel

Brian Murphy's post has been roundly critizised (and justifably so imho) 
already but I wanted to bring out one point that hasn't been bashed 
enough.  That's the idea that we can pick and choose what our government 
spends money on.

On the surface it sounds like a great idea.  I'd allocate my taxes to 
education and help for the needy and put $0 on defense et al (knowing some 
yahoo will pour his taxes into that).  Everyone gets a vote.

But what about roads?  And mass transit?  Who's going to think to cover 
them?  And if I pay more taxes than you does that mean I get more votes 
than you?  Imagine all the wealthy folks pouring their taxes into programs 
that benefit only them.  And if people in the northeast see crop subsidies 
as not worthy of investment, do they get to win without debate just 
because there's more of us than there are farmers?  Obviously this isn't 
fair.

When you come down to it, government must stand for the minority more than 
the majority.  The majority doesn't need defending.  The minorities do.

In some ways I really empathize with Mr. Murphy and others who are feeling 
the burden of government.  Not too may decades ago, these people would 
have struck out and moved west where they could set up their independent 
little communities.  Unfortunately those days are gone now.  Everyone has 
to learn to live with the realities of our 20th century world.  Malthusian 
philosophy (Social Darwinism) has no place in our country.

Actually, if you want to blame someone for the dire economic straights 
that the US is in right now, instead of blaming "welfare queens", why not 
read "America: What Went Wrong" by Bartlett and Steele.  Check out 
statistics (taken from tax data, so it's not partisan) like: in 1987, 60% 
of corporate profits went to executive comensation; or like the top 6% of 
the US increased their earning about 2300% during the 80's.  Maybe it's 
time the wealthy helped pay for supporting the government?

--------------
Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: <None>
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:18:26 GMT

In article <2368@mitech.com> gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:

   Anyway, DLW's statement is that in general (or on average)
   "mo money is mo better."

See previous posting; that is not what I was trying to convey.

   I'm saying that I beleive there is a curve, a complex
   trade off of time/money that needs to be optimized in
   the context of family values. 

Certainly.  I meant "all other things being equal", it's an advantage
to for the family of the kids to have upper-middle class income than
working class income.  Sure they are never exactly equal, but I think
the principle is clear.
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In politics, why ask why?
Organization: The World
	<1992Aug17.161042.21616@kronos.com>
	<DRG.92Aug17181901@bubba.ma30.bull.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:38:40 GMT


I think another few years of people in these E. European regions
killing each other and providing never-ending images of misery and
maybe we'll understand something about modern history: Why the world
kind of turned the other cheek when other nations walked all over
these countries in the past. I mean, it's not hard to see getting to
the point where the only reaction would be ``how could it be worse?''

It may not be fair, but it just might be true.

--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:10:22 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:

> What (Brian Murphy) never explains is why certain things should
> be done in schools and others should not.  His division seems entirely
> arbitrary, as if he were flipping a coin.

Arbitrary?  Hardly; if it ain't reading, writing, and arithmetic getting
progressively more difficult through the elementary school system, I don't
support spending time and money on it in the public education system.

                                      - - - Murph

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: FYI: Choice and Bean
Keywords: abortion rights, political action
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Distribution: ne
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:18:56 GMT

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

>cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
>>You also claim that she is "anti-gay rights legislation" (peculiar choice
>>of hyphenation..typo??) Without any meat to your assertion , we can only
>>assume a middle of the road position. Again can anyone flesh out these
>>statements?

>	Who you callin' "we"?

>	Anti-gay rights legislation, means just that: against legislation
>that allows gay and lesbians to have the same rights as priveleges as
>the other people in this country (you know, the right to work without
>being harassed or fired for being gay, the right to have a place to live
>without being harassed or evicted for being gay, the right to choose
>how your estate will be divided without having your family override the
>will, the privelege of allowing the people closest to you visit you
>in the hospital, etc...).

>	There is no "middle of the road".  You either support equality
>or you don't.  All being clueless means is that you haven't made the choice
>yet.

>BBC


We = the readers of the post that called for a boycott of L.L.Bean.


Bob;
 Neither the poster or the reposter included any facts in the statement.
They posted a call for a boycott of L.L.Bean and for a telephone 
campaign without giving us a single solitary fact. They could very
easily be connected to the campaigns of her opponents or have a financial
interest in harming L.L.Bean. Maybe Ms. Bean is virulently anti-gay, but
maybe she is not. From what was posted we , the readers, just do not
know.

As far as a "middle of the road"... well if she supports legislation
against job discrimination but has second thought about non-traditional
adoptions.... she could still be flamed , as she was , but also be very
progressive for her state.

Charlie

P.S. do not let someone else with an unknown agenda manipulate your
     views or actions. That is truly clueless.
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 16 Aug 92 03:30:43 GMT
Organization: insert anything here

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>>Music is also a Very Nice Thing.  So's home beer brewing.
>>That doesn't mean that either should be taught in school at the expense 
>>of reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

>So we don't end up with more dimwits like yourself who apparently can
>read and write but haven't the foggiest idea why they do so.

	Do you know something we don't?  There hasn't been any indication 
that Mr. Murphy can actually read and comprehend on this forum.

BBC
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Organization: The World
	<Bt6Dw1.9CF@world.std.com> <2796988236@dwetzel.mis.stratus.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:50:36 GMT


From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
>Actually as I recall, the deciding factor was the empassioned plea in 
>front of the UN of a 'nurse' who had snuck out of Kuwait after the 
>takeover who claimed to have witnessed Iraqi soldiers killing babies and 
>so forth.  It came out much later (just this year in fact) that the 
>'nurse' was the Kuwait ambassidor's daughter and Kuwaiti royalty.  The 
>"rape of Kuwait" is quite possibly all propaganda.

It is quite a leap to go from one questionable report (suddenly
classified as a "deciding factor") to ``The "rape of Kuwait" is quite
possibly all propaganda.''

Were the Iraqi troops there or not?

Who set all those oil wells on fire?

What happened to the contents of those Kuwaiti museums?

Did we discover heaps of bodies of civilians when we entered Kuwait or
not?

C'mon, it's not like that nurse/babies incident was the only event in
Kuwait.

>I have to agree with Mr. Murph that the sole reason we got into Kuwait was 
>oil.

Why? Do you have reason to believe that Saddam Hussein would not have
sold the US (et al) oil? Or not sold it at market price?

I think it's quite obvious the reasons are not this easily cast off.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:33:51 GMT
	<BZS.92Aug18194424@ussr.std.com>
Organization: College of Engineering, Northeastern University
In-reply-to: bzs@ussr.std.com's message of 19 Aug 92 00:44:24 GMT

In article <BZS.92Aug18194424@ussr.std.com> bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> Actually, I think the most under-rated and one of the best reasons for
> our reaction to Iraq was Hussein's taking of 400 American hostages
> (er, guests.)

	Except that the decision to go to war was made long
before the hostages were taken.  It may even have been made
before the Iraqi invasion (at least the decision to go to war
SOMEPLACE).  And the hostages were all let go long before the
US invasion of Iraq.
From: tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Give 'em a Right then a Left
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:21:23 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <2367@mitech.com>, gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
> People getting all those engineering degrees. They intend, and
> their families intend them to WORK, and work hard, when they graduate.

I think we had a misunderstanding. Since you were worried about the
effect of your own wealth on your offspring, as compared to "working
class" children, I presumed you were using that term as a code-word
for "poor" (I presume you are not independently wealthy).

If your derogatory remarks refer only to those so wealthy they don't
bother working, you're probably right. They don't have to work, they
haven't instilled a work ethic in their children, so they don't work
either.

But they are so few in number, they are an insignificant portion of
university students in this country. There just aren't many people
who are that wealthy.
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:16:26 GMT
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <FuJgPB3w164w@buscard.fidonet.org>, murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
> rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
> 
>> One of the purposes of schools is to introduce kids to American
>> culture and the cultures that have fed into it. Music is just
>> as much a part of that culture as literature.
> 
> Now where in the world did you come up with that idea?  That's absurd and 
> is EXACTLY why "Johnny" can't read!  

Music *is* literature!

Music is also language.

-gjc
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 05:08:19 GMT

In article <2796988236@dwetzel.mis.stratus.com> usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News) writes:

   Actually as I recall, the deciding factor was the empassioned plea in 
   front of the UN of a 'nurse' who had snuck out of Kuwait after the 
   takeover who claimed to have witnessed Iraqi soldiers killing babies and 
   so forth.  It came out much later (just this year in fact) that the 
   'nurse' was the Kuwait ambassidor's daughter and Kuwaiti royalty.  The 
   "rape of Kuwait" is quite possibly all propaganda.

"Deciding factor?"  Do you have any evidence that it was the deciding
factor, or are you just making that up because you like it?  "All
propaganda?"  Plenty of Western reporters got a close look at the
state of Kuwait after the Iraqis were driven out.  There is consistent
testimony from thousands of Kuwaitis who lived through the occupation.
There were the Kuwaiti men with their fingernails ripped out, etc,
etc, who were seen by plenty of reliable witnesses.  Let's not get
into absurd revisionism.  Evidence of massive looting, torture,
rape, and pillage by the Iraqis occupying Kuwait is beyond dispute.
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:07:30 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: insert anything here

warren@pws.ma30.bull.com (Warren Lavallee) writes:

	[Lots and lots about what people should do]

	Warren, for how many of the people you've prevented from
having an abortion have you gone back and adopted their kids once they
had them?

	For that matter, if someone were to show up on your doorstep
and say "I was going to have an abortion, but I listened to you and didn't,
but I can't afford to keep my baby, so here it is for you..." how would
you react?

	My guess is that your Christianity only goes phosphor-deep.

	Don't forget - "Judge not lest ye be judged."

	I'm no fan of abortion, but the rampant hypocrasy that
enshrouds the pro-life movement really needs to be challenged.  It's
revolting that the SAME people who would stop unmarried people from 
having abortions will, if they have the kid, stigmatize them for bringing 
up a kid in a "non-traditional family".  At this point, the issues have
nothing to do with what hey are saying - it has dropped to the point
of sociological insecurity ("the only way I can prove that I'm an
OK person is to show how BAD everyone else around me is...")

	Which of course is very plentiful these days.


BBC
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: harwood@progress.COM (Tom Harwood)
Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Distribution: ne
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:38:49 GMT

europa@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (r.j.capik) writes:

>Why don't we see more Taoist quotes [etc]

Well, possibly because the Taoist heaven is amazingly bureaucratic :-)
Taoist philosophy, as opposed to Taoist religion, is difficult to explain,
and I lack sufficient education to do it justice; but I did find one
verse of Lao Tzu's which seems apropos:

52.
The source of life
is as a mother.
Be fond of both mother and children but know the
    mother dearer
and you outlive death.
Curb your tongue and senses
and you are beyond trouble,
let them loose
and you are beyond help.
Discover that nothing is too small for clear vision,
too insignificant for tender strength,
use outlook
and insight,
use them both
and you are immune:
for you have witnessed eternity.

[Translation by Witter Bynner]
Why don't we take the "curb the tongue and senses" bit to heart,
and could someone with a better newsreader redirect followups
to an abortion newsgroup?
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: The World
	<BZS.92Aug12194305@ussr.std.com> <BswL19.97n@world.std.com>
Distribution: ne
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:34:03 GMT


From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
>Else why are so many of the persons who wish to ban cigarette smoke also
>ones who believe in legalizing pot.....

Isn't that properly phrased: ban cigarrette smoke in public places
where it might annoy unwilling participants?

Do you doubt they'd complain about pot smoke in the same situations?

>why are so many of those who
>are pro-abortion also anti-death penalty

Because they can distinguish the two concepts?

>why are those who are
>most down on the Serbs keeping quiet about Croatia's occupation of
>much of Bosnia (and their ethnic cleansing)

I've never heard either the right or the left take up much any side on
this issue so this is a red herring.

>why were those who
>were most in favor of the Armenians and against the Azeris so quiet when
>it turned out that the Azeri 1/3 of the population had ceased to exist

Who are these people you're now referring to as "those who"? You were
talking about the liberals, remember? This may be an injustice, but I
can't say I've ever seen it associated particularly with partisan
politics.

>Why is it that
>the discrimination in South Africa is so important but not in Japan ....

Where have you ever heard a word about discrimination in Japanese
society in America except through liberal sources? I don't remember
George Bush ever bringing this up (I supposed he'd first have to be
able to hold his food down in this context.)

>why is it that arrest without charge and trial without jury and government
>hit teams are such a big deal when any South American government does it
>but not when the Sandinistas or the British forces in Ireland does it...

Same question, why don't you go get a copy of Amnesty Int'l literature
and see if you still believe this.

>why was it important when seals were being clubbed on the head but not
>when cows were.

Probably for the same reason that veal industry practices were
complained about. I dunno, don't confuse animal rights stuff with
liberal politics even if the people sometimes overlap.

>Why is leather "better" than fur...

Whoever said this? Perhaps someone pointed out that it makes more
sense to wear the leather produced by the meat industry than to farm
these strange animals who's only value is their fur?

I don't particularly care about that issue myself, but that's my best
guess as to what you are referring to.

>why is organic better
>in everything excpt fur......

I've never seen a tomato cower for its life, have you? I once had to
wrestle an eggplant to the ground but that's a long story.

>I am sure that I have hit plenty of hot spots, especially from those who
>have the strongest sense of self delusion.

No, you created a rather easily-disposed of list.

--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Education, deficits, morals: you can't have it all
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:24:21 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> Mr Murphy has a career awaiting him writing screaming headlines for
> the Herald.

Once again, Mr. Shein, you simply bash those strong enough to criticize that
which is wrong in this country without offering a suitable alternative.

Get a group of people together and ask them what the single, most pressing
issue in this election is.  They'll bellow in unison; THE ECONOMY!

The comparison is stark between the Republicans and the Democrats.  They both
agree that everything that is near and dear to your heart including sex
education in school is a Very Nice Thing.  The difference between their
positions is that the former would rather have families and individuals do
more for themselves where the latter are happy to do it for you.

But - that's going to cost MONEY - money nobody has.  The Dems will raise that
money by raising your taxes.  The Republicans will raise this money by cutting
spending.

                            Will the spending ever end?
                                   - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: War's a funny thing
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:34:11 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>I'm WAY out of my league in talking of economics but there is something fishy
>when gas costs some $4 a gallon in Europe but $1 here.

A lot of it is taxes.

A lot of it is because the US supplies their own oil and, therefore,
isn't as interested in suppressing its use soas to protect their
balance of trade.

You would also find phone services immensely cheaper in the US than in
most european countries. But I doubt it's because talk is cheaper
here...


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:10:36 GMT
Reply-To: Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Organization: Dave_Wetzel

In article <Bt6Dw1.9CF@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M 
Richmond) writes:
> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
> 
> >Nobody should be misled that the Gulf War had anything more than a thin 
veneer
> >of "humanitarian reasons" to get involved.  The whole thing was about 
oil and
> >its availability at low cost.  Period.  End of story.
> 
> Lest anyone think that the "rape of Kuwait" was not real allow me to 
point
> out that both of the US female soldiers and some of the men were molested
> by Iraqi soldiers. The one pilot was anally penetrated when she had 2
> broken limbs. The conditions in Kuwait were in the same scale.

Actually as I recall, the deciding factor was the empassioned plea in 
front of the UN of a 'nurse' who had snuck out of Kuwait after the 
takeover who claimed to have witnessed Iraqi soldiers killing babies and 
so forth.  It came out much later (just this year in fact) that the 
'nurse' was the Kuwait ambassidor's daughter and Kuwaiti royalty.  The 
"rape of Kuwait" is quite possibly all propaganda.

The treatment of our POW's was of course inexcusable, but seeing as that 
treatment didn't happen until after we started bombing Iraq, it's a little 
difficult to take as an excuse to start bombing Iraq.  I suspect the 
treatment of the soldiers was directly related to the level of frustration 
the Iraqi gaurds felt at not being able to strike back at the UN forces, 
so it's not even very good evidence to extrapolate from.

Add to all this the lack of reaction to Kuwait's treatment of Iraqi and 
suspected Iraqi-sympatisers and the lack of reaction to the Kurds being 
slaughtered (for years really) and the lack of reaction when other nations 
abuse people (China, El Salvidor, South Africa, Israel, etc) and you have 
a good refutation of the concept that we entered the fight for the good of 
the poor abused Kuwaiti people.

I have to agree with Mr. Murph that the sole reason we got into Kuwait was 
oil.  We trotted out a lot of "God is on our side"-sort of reasons to make 
ourselves feel better about it.  About that the evidence suggests that's 
he's right.

--------------
Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: ne.politics