From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: What is conciousness?
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 22:36:23 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <8Vi5TB11w165w@kalki33> kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:
>brinkman@si151a.llnl.gov writes:
[deletions]
>>    Kalki, you seem to be confusing talk.origins with a useful forum for
>> carrying on metaphysical discussions.  Now, although there are undoubtedly
>> people here who can help answer your questions, these same questions have
>> little or nothing to do with evolution.
>
>Ok. Then what is the (talk.)origin of consciousness? Of course, first we
>will need to decide what consciousness is.

 Well, since this newsgroup cocerns itself with the origins of *life* and
not consciousness, I think Matt still has a point.

>> the improbability of abiogenesis.  Unfortunately, abiogenesis deals with
>> the question of how the first living object developed, and has nothing to
>> do with conciousness.  Let me rephrase, abiogenesis deals with conciousness
>> only if you define conciousness == life.  If you are making that assertion,
>> than you cannot attempt to weasel out of the questions Mark originally
>> put to you by claiming that "Well we are really asking about conciousness,
>> not death", because you have defined these concepts in relation to one
>> another.

>I see. So you think that all our posts should be about the same thing.
>We are not supposed to deal with more than one issue. Is that it?

 In a sense... this *is* 'talk.origins,' you know. You know, supposed to
be focused on questions of origins and life history? You have not yet
shown the relevance of this discussion...

>> Begin metaphysical ramblings.
>> 
>>    Let us look at a common example, called "The Paradox of Theseus's Ship."
>> Theseus sets out on a 10 year Aegean-Mediterranean voyage upon his ship the
>> Dawntreader (apologies to C.S. Lewis fans out there).  Now wooden ships tend
>> to rot when exposed to water, so periodically the Dawntreader's crew would
>> set ashore, fell some trees, form them into beams, planks, etc., and replace
>> the rotting components.  At the end of the ten years, the Dawntreader returns
>> to Athens with all of its original constituents replaced as described above.
>> Now, the question to you, Kalki, is--Is the returning ship the Dawntreader?
>> 
>>    Be careful in answering, this is a rather knotty question.  If you say,
>> "No, everything has been replaced so it is not the Dawntreader", you would
>> find rather vocal opposition from Theseus and his crew, whom have strode the
>> planks of the "same" ship over the past 10 years.  Furthermore, since 10
>> years is more than enough time to replace all constituents in a human body,
>> by the same criterion you would have to admit that the returning captain is
>> not Theseus, or provide a more accurate distinction between the cases.
>> 
>>    If you say, "Yes, the returning ship is the Dawntreader", then you are
>> exalting the Dawntreader, surely an inanimate object, to the same status as
>> a living creature.  That is, you have said that an inanimate object has a
>> continuity regradless of its components.  This continuity is precisely
>> what it appears that you are defining conciousness (and hence life) to be
>> in you musings on "He's gone.  Gone where?"
>
>The name of the ship is whatever its proprietor names it. Since you call
>it Theseus' ship, then Theseus can give you an authoritative answer.

>Sincerely,
>Kalki Dasa

 You just lost all credibility with me. You didn't even try to answer the
question, you didn't even say something like, "I don't know," you didn't
say, "I'll get back to you."
 I will put the best light on the facts possible, and assume you simply
didn't understand the question.
 The question can be phrased as, "How much continuity of constituents
is necessary for an object to be considered the 'same' object over time?"

 This is relevant to the nature of consciousness; I share a continuity with
myself of yesterday, and ten years ago. But am I the 'same' person?

Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.
Newsgroups: talk.origins