HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Re:      Re: biblical interpretations on homosexuality
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:44:03 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92082811110767@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET> writes:
|> Mark,
|> 
|>      I don't believe that practicing Homosexuals are saved any more than I
|> believe that the churches should accept abortion as "Pro-Choice".  If the
|> Methodist church has adopted that stance as someone stated here, then I am
|> ashamed that I was a Methodist.  When we have the spirit of Christ within us,
|> we are like Christ.  

"Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spoke within himself
saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner
of woman this is that touches him, for she is a sinner.  And Jesus answering
said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee."  
                                                    Luke 7:39-40

"And there came a voice to him, 'Rise Peter; kill and eat.'  But Peter said,
Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 
And the voice spoke unto him a second time, 'What God hath cleansed, that 
call not thou common.'" 
                                                    Acts 10:13-15

"A bruised reed he shall not break, and the smoking flax shall he not
quench:  he shall bring forth judgment unto truth." 
                                                    Isaiah 42:3
-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)*       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Re:      biblical interpretations on homosexuality
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:15:55 GMT

In article <920828101105.312@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>,         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> writes:
|> 	I've seen a number of phrases such as "your interpretation" being
|> written on the homosexuality issue.  Usually this is in reference to a
|> traditional interpretation of the biblical passages on homosexuality.  I think
|> however that people shouldn't expect others to completely change their
|> understanding of scripture simply because they are told repeatedly and with
|> emotion that it is out of date, or incorrect.
|> 
|> 	I am hoping that one of you who have a non-traditional interpretation
|> of the _ New Testament _ passages talking about homosexuallity would be
|> willing to write about it.  How can I even consider a radically new position
|> if no one tells me why I should believe it?  All I hear is that I'm a terrible
|> person 'cause I wont let people have non-het, sexually active relationships.
|> This is reason enough to totally change my view on the sinfulnes of an
|> action?
|> 
|> Mark
|>

Anyone who is really interested in the reasons many have for alternate 
understandings of the Biblical passages usually quoted to condemn gays
and lesbians has many sources available to them.  There has been much 
published by respected scholars.  This is also not a "radically new position".
Why base your thinking on this issue on the personal notes you read on 
the Net when there is so much well presented information readily available?

Some sources:

Boswell, John; "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay
People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the
14th Century," University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1980.

McNeil, John. J.; "The Church and the Homosexual," Beacon Press, Boston, 
1988.

Spong, John.; "Living in Sin?" also "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalist",
(not sure of publisher and dates, but still bestsellers and available in 
most bookstores).

Organizations:

  Integrity (lesbigay Episcopalians and friends)
  address:  Integrity, Inc.
            PO Box 19561
            Washington, DC 20036-0561

  PLGC (Presbyterians for Lesbian & Gay Concerns)
  address: PLGC, James D. Anderson, Communications Secretary
           PO Box 38
           New Brunswick, NJ 08903-0038

-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)*       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:05:18 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      names of local churches
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	It seems that there might be some confusion if all the congragations in
Dallas called themselves The Church in Dallas.
	I don't suppose more specific local names might be used?

Church on Mill, Orange Ave. Church, etc?

Mark
Drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:01:55 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      2nd Coming Discussion
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>

Folks,

Recently Dan Graham posted a message regarding some of the questions raised
by passages in Daniel and Revelation vis-a-vis Jesse's series on the 2nd
coming.  I have been saving this discussion and I inadvertantly deleted
this message.  If anyone out there still has a copy, would you please
forward it to me?  I already asked Dan, and he doesn't keep his messages.

Thanks!

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
From: DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU (Ken Diefenbach)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Baby Sarah (Prayer Request)
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:59:00 GMT
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David and Brenda

     Rest in Jesus' strength. Hard advice for us parents when we have hassles
with the health of our kids ;-). He is our sufficiency. I will be praying for
you and for Sarah.

     Prayer and support from the best corner of the Pacific Ocean

     Ken Diefenbach
From: DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU (MARK DRAKE)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: apostles started church?
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:27:27 GMT
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>the Scriptures tell us that ... the Apostles were sent out
>to the various lands to spread the Gospel.  Having established the
>various churches, they remained in consultation with one another.
>
>   The churches didn't just spring up out of nowhere; they were
>started by the apostles sent to each respective land.
>
>Steve Creps

Hm. There were churches in Rome and Antioch before the Apostles got there,
weren't there?  If I remember correctly, the early persecutions spread
christians far and wide, and everywhere they went, they started churches.  They
didn't wait for the apostles.

Then again, maybe my biblical history is lacking.  (I'd have gotten a "c" or
maybe worse on the bible quiz, if graded on a straight curve.  :-) )

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:28:35 -0600
From:         MARCHIBOLD@MSCD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Catholicism

But Kerry - I've seen prayer requests that you've posted to all of
us on Christia.  Why do you do that if "God is in us as we pray He
hears us instantaneously and needs no intermediaries, living or dead?

Just curious.

In His Love Molly Archibold
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From: dougger@ERC.MsState.Edu (Douglas Meyer)
Subject: Pumsy the Dragon
Organization: /home3/dougger/.organization
Distribution: bit.listserv.christia
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:07:13 GMT


It's been a while since I've been on here, though I've been doing a
little reading from time to time.  Anyway, I need a little help to
track down some information.

We have (for the second time in as many years) a new "educational"
curriculum coming into our little town and it is decidedly New Age in
its techniques.  The Transpersonal Educators that have put it together
are internationally recognized.  I've been asked to participate in
preventing the establishment of this program, since I have both taught
on the New Age Movement and participated in the activities associated
with blocking the first attempt to introduce a mandatory, blatantly
anti-Christian curriculum into a local high school.

Anyway, we're starting to get information together, including other
cities/schools that have seen this program introduced and where
Christian parents have objected and either had the program radically
changed or removed altogether.  The elementary school program is
called

Pumsy the Dragon
Author:  Jill Anderson
Produced by Timberlin Press

If you are aware of Christian groups that have effectively worked to
keep schools clear of this curriculum (or other programs written by
Jill and/or supported by the National Council for Self Esteem) please
pass on names/addresses of those that spearheaded the work.

Deeply appreciative,
--
Douglas Brent Meyer
Research Assistant
Engineering Research Center for Computational Field Simulation
Box 6176
Mississippi State, MS  39759
                                    "In short, there are three things
Office: (601)-325-2477               that last:  faith, hope and love; 
FAX:    (601)-325-7692               and the greatest of these is love."

E-Mail Address:  dougger@erc.msstate.edu
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: prayer
Date: 29 Aug 92 11:54:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <920829.112507.SAT.FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>, FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran) writes...

[...]

>Why do they [Muslims] always want to talk about the Trinity??

	Probably because they think that it is an easy point to 
refute. I find that their perception of the Trinity is a bit different 
from the orthodox view. There is a verse in the Qur'an that portrays 
the trinity as being three gods.


>Also, have any of you heard of Deedat?  He is an Ethiopian Muslim from South
>Africa that is one of the primary Islamic apologists writing in both Arabic and
>English.  I must have over a dozen of his little books students have given me
>talking about how messed up the Bible and Christians are....  In the local mall
>they show vcr tapes of his debates with Jimmy Swagart....  Last month he claime
>d to be instrumental in the conversion of a couple of Ethiopian Christian pries
>ts and that made it big in the news here.  Any of you read his stuff in your
>countries?

	Seems that he is the popular guy in the Muslim attempts to 
win converts through confrontation and refutation. I have been given 
at least two of his booklets. I find him to be very contentious (he 
moves from one subject to another without proving his points) and 
intellectually dishonest. For example, instead of showing where the 
Bible has been `changed' he quotes from the _WatchTower_ of the 
Jehovah's Witnesses, states that they are Christian, and then quotes 
portions of where the _WatchTower_ states that the Bible has been changed.

	John GilChrist of the Ministry of _Jesus to the Muslims_, has 
written a few booklets that dissect the portrayals of the Ahmed Deedat 
booklets quite well. Their address is:
	
	Jesus to the Muslims
	P.O. Box 1804,
	Benoni, 1500
	Republic of South Africa

	If you think that you would have trouble writing to them from 
where you are, let me know and I will write from the States.


 en agape,
 Bob 
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 78witherspoo@cua.edu
Subject: John Witherspoon (was Civil Disobedience)
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:25:10 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92090320315207@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU writes:

>     FS: Well, what we must realize is, just as the Wall Street Journal,
> that I've quoted before, pointed out, that it was the Great Awakening,
> that got people ready for this, and as I stressed, and document very
> carefully, in the book, The Christian Manifesto. The Christian clergy had
> a great deal to do with all this, and no greater name than Witherspoon.
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^
>     Witherspoon was a great hero of mine, and he's president of what is
> now Princeton University, and he was the only signer of the Declaration
> of Independence, and he followed directly after Samuel Rutherford and his
> writing, Lex Rex. And whether you hold the view that Witherspoon did or
> even those who weren't Christian individually, never the less they all
> saw, they all had the view, that when you came to tyranny, that you had
> to oppose it.

Dear All--

	It's amazing where your family will turn up, isn't it?

	Yes, John Witherspoon is my direct ancestor.  My father's family, the
Witherspoons, came over from Scotland in 1754 (or there abouts).  Two of his
sons died in the Revolution, he represented New Jersey at the Continental
Congress and did sign the Declaration of Independence.  After politics, he
accepted the position as President of the College of New Jersey, which is now
Princeton.

	I have more information on his life, and his religious thoughts, at
home.  If anyone cares, I will post it next week.

	Thanks Maks!

Love and good walking,

Tom Witherspoon

78witherspoon@cua.edu


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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:57:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      More on God's Warnings.

Leo,  You are correct that all men are presented with God's creations to
attest to His creatorship.  Paul does make this clear.  I was referring to
direct, specific warnings, like Jonah gave to Ninegeh.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 03:13:35 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary and playing with words

On Sat, 22 Aug 1992 02:43:00 EST David J. Moreau said:
>Discussions on the Bible often end up in a little game called Let's
>See Who Has a Bigger Vocabulary.  Why must people manipulate words to
>show that they don't 'worship' Mary, but they 'venororate' h?.  She is
>not a 'mediator', but she is an 'intersessor'?  Why don't we consult
>the Bible instead?  I'll be waiting on the scriptural proof.
>
>David Moreau

David,

Using different words to distinguish different realities is not
playing word games.

Marty Helgesen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:35:39 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary and sinlessness

Bernice:

Perhaps your friend is thinking of Jeremiah 10:2-5:

"Thus says the LORD:
Do not learn the way of the Gentiles,
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the people are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good."
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: I'm back!!!
Date: 31 Aug 92 00:53:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BttFuI.6M2@world.std.com>, timk@world.std.com (Tim King) writes...

> 
>In any case, how did the vote turn out?
> 

	Hi Tim, welcome back.
	At last count it was 2 (moderated), 3 million (supervised), 2 
(unsupervised). I may be exaggerating on the supervised vote.


 en agape,
 Bob 
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Subject: Re: The Bible and Homophobia
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:13:50 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92082803254075@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET> writes:
>>Many same sex marriages have
>>occured _within Christian churches_, but are not legally recognized.
> 
> Neither are they divinely recognized.
> 
>>These
>>people can no longer be considered fornicators, since they have been joined in
>>marriage. Does the bible still condemn them?
> 
> Your question rests on a false foundation. The marriage is no marriage
> in God's eyes and so God will indeed punish the sin.

Funny - these churches, their congregations and their ministers seem to
disagree with you, and yet you both call yourselves Christians. It would appear
that there is some confusion...
 
>>Politicos who say that same-sex marriages are un-Christian or go against
>>"family values" are denying these people the chance to have a traditional
>>(Christian or not) marriage and family. These politicians are also forgetting
>>that the US doesn't have a national religion and that imposing Christian
>>beliefs through law is unconstitutional.
> 
> This is not true, since the prohibition of murder is also an
> implementation of Christian ethics to national law. That the view on
> murder is not exclusively Christian changes nothing since to my
> knowledge the view on homosexual marriages is also the same among
> Christians, Jews and Moslems, just to mention some.

A person chooses to be a murderer - if I step outside the office and decide
that I feel like killing someone today (not as absurd as it sounds - I live in
DC, and it's an all-too-frequent occurrence in some areas) I am a murderer and
have chosen that identity for myself. As I have continually pointed out, this
is not the case for homosexuals or bisexuals. 

I'm mostly interested in your statement about Christian churches that perform
same-sex marriages, though. These are not "new-age" radical groups but
Episcopal and Methodist *Christian* churches. Are you saying that these
congragations of people aren't "real" Christians, simply because they don't 
read the Bible _your_ way? This is not a rhetorical question - I really want to
know.

> Wolfgang <><

-Alison
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 07:47:55 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Cyst on my wrist.

Dear Christia.
Some how or another I grew a cyst on my wrist. The Doctor I went to
yesterday told me it was a Bible cyst. And that it is called thatbecause
people use to hit them with a hard book to make them go away. I do not
plan on doing this. Has anyone out there ever had a cyst that was
removed without surgery, if so, please tell me how and what happend to
get rid of it. Thanks..

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:40:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Origins of church names.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

First, to answer the question, the Baptist minister was a gentleman and
didn't argue the point.

The origin of church names is interesting and sort of deals, pqrtly, with
this issue in general of the local church versus the hierarchical church.
Until the Protestant Reformation, there was no church formally named the
Roman Catholic church, there didn't have to be.  The terms "the church,"
and the "Roman Church," and the "Roman Catholic Church," were
interchangeable.  Dissadent movements had to have names to differentiate
them from the mother church.  Luther was appaled when some of his followers
began to call themselves "Lutherans."  While these names and consequential
denominational movements were understandable, that does not make them right
nor within the limits of scripture as it describes the New Testament
church.

There is only one instance in the NT where one church tries to hold sway
over another, James over Antioch, and that was a dismal failure as you can
read in Paul's later writings.  He repudiates every part of that letter
save for the portion on adultery and sexual immorality.

I look foreward to the day when I can walk into any Christian church and be
welcomed as a fellow Christian without the tag of Baptist, Catholic,
Methodist, or whatever.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 09:50:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Second parousia in the past?
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Jesse, there are several outstanding questions you haven't answered yet,
they are important.  Here are a couple more.

In Revelation 15, se are presented with a view of saints in heaven before
the seven last plagues are dispensed.  How could this have happened at 70?
Paul makes it clear that new bodies will be given and then taken, perhaps
briefly, to heaven.  (This is not completely clear, where the saints go
after the second parousia is still an enigma.)  So, who is that in heaven
prior to the seven last plagues?  Have they been dispensed?

In Revelation 20 is found a description of the great "White throne"
judgment.  This portrays the final end of the devil and his minions and all
false believers.  The lake of fire is a vivid  picture.  If this is all in
the past, then the devil is in the lake of fire and can no longer tempt
Christians.  In fact, there is a sharp division in that chapter between
those destined for the lake and those whose names are written in the book
of Life.  This was done at 70?

Your view sounds amazing like the reconstructionists or Dominion boys.  If
there is another parousia at the end of the "church age," then there must
be a fourth at the end of the 1000 years.  Much needs to be explaned,
Jesse.  We're waiting...  You can do it in small bytes since you are really
busy.

Anxious to learn,

Dan Graham
P.S., Dan, Jesse was talking to me, but the confusion is quite
understandable. We have a Daniel and two Dans, maybe you or I should change
our name to Dan'l.
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