From: khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Subject: Re: Orthadox Judaism and women
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 03:00:50 GMT

In article <FAIGIN.93Jan9083637@solarium.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:11:25 GMT, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) said:
>
>>>First of all, you must remember that from the point of view of the Orthodox,
>>>their behavior is not sexist. Women have a set of obligations given by G-d;
>>>men have a set of obligations from the same source -- and you don't question
>>>the source. Rather, you are thankful that you have your set of obligations.
>>>Neither set is more or less important -- all are important for the sanctity
>>>of the world. You thank G-d each day that you have been given your
>>>obligations.
>
>> Your last sentence says that you thank G-d each day that you have
>> been given your obligations.  
>
>You didn't read what I wrote closely. I said that the Orthodox thank G-d in
>this way. Personally, I am Reform, and I do not hold with the Orthodox
>position. Like you, I do not feel the Orthodox approach is appropriate to this
>day and age. However, unlike you, I recognize why the Orthodox feel the way
>they do, and why FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW they do not consider their behavior
>sexist. 
>
>> Perhaps you or another poster would
>> care to explain why men thank G-d they were not created female,
>
>From *MY* understanding, it is because if they were created female, they
>wouldn't have the great honor of being obliged to study Torah. Torah is the
>center of Orthodoxy.
>
>> while women thank G-d that they were created what they were.  
>
>Women say this IN ORTHODOXY because they have the great honor of providing the
>support system necessary so that men can study Torah. I personally do not
>agree with these prayers, but that is the Orthodox point of view.
>
>> But sexism, defined as the assignment of roles, privileges, and 
>> restrictions by sex, is still sexism.  A law or tradition can be
>> sexist and still be useful.  It is the rigidity of the law or
>> tradition I object to.
>
>Then don't be Orthodox. I'm not. As Liberal Jews, we can recognize something
>as sexist. When viewed from within the rigidity, it doesn't appear sexist
>because the tradition provides an explanation that makes sense in the context
>of the tradition.
>
>In other words, although you and I may feel it is sexist, it is a pointless
>argument to try and convince the Orthodox. It is simply part of their
>tradition, has a place in their tradition, makes sense from their tradition.
>It does devolve to the traditional R/C/O schism, and cannot be resolved.
>
>> I posted a series of articles earlier explaining why I became
>> disillusions with religion (I was brought up Jewish).  It was the
>> sexism that started my unease and questioning.  I did some
>> study.  So many of the laws and traditions seemed to apply to a
>> society that no longer exists.
>
>OK. I don't think that you'll be sucessful discussing this here (in s.c.j).
>There is a general attitude in the newsgroup that leans towards the Orthodox,
>and you'll rapidly fall into the O/C/R flamewar. I suggest you contact me
>regarding the mail.liberal-judaism mailing list, which I run. If you can
>phrase the question such that it does not say the Orthodox position is
>invalid, but rather it was not right for you (and thus you moved to the
>liberal side), I would welcome the contribution to the list.
>
>> Let us examine the Purity Laws.  They proscribe physical contact
>> between husband and wife for two weeks of every four.  The no-touch
>> period is Days 28 to 12 of the menstrual cycle.  The most fertile
>> point is Days 14 to 16, and sperm are volatile for 48 hours.  
>
>As a Reform Jew, I don't hold or follow the ritual purity laws. I'm sure they
>are rational from the Orthodox point of view, but I am not aware of the
>argument (other than "G-ds word").
>
>Daniel Faigin
>Moderator, Liberal Judaism Mailing List.
>
>Have you participated in the soc.culture.jewish survey? Send me Email for
>info.
>
>
>--
>[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
>[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
>		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish