From: nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu (Aaron Nabil)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:36:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr14.213624.12605
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi) writes:
>>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  
>
>Be careful when answering certain questions like this.  Why?

Yeah, why?  Oh, I guess you are getting to that...
		
>1. I have experienced such and such a state and or feeling so I am at
>   this level or attainment or realization.
>
>First of all, why should anyone care if you attained such and such a state.

Obviously they care, they asked!

In general, people asking "What is your current level of spiritual
realization?" or more specifically "Have you been in state n?" fall into a
few general categories.  Let me try to describe them (and why I think your
admonishment is baseless fluffy-bunny crystal chakra foo-foo) with an
illustration of an imaginary world...

In this world, imagine that the movies shown at theaters weren't shown 
titled, and when you go out to a movie your ticket is just for "the show" at
some theater.  You can only hope that it will be interesting, often you will 
ask a friend "Hey, is that show at the theater with the red marquis any
good?" to help select where you will best spend your entertainment dollar.
Red marquis?  Well, in this world, the theaters don't have names either. 
Worse yet, people are lousy at giving direction to theaters, because the 
roads and freeways are nameless too!

Take heart, because in this world some very few special people are gifted
movie critics.  They spend their lives searching out the best films at
the best theaters.  It is such a consuming passion for them, that out
of the kindness of their heart they desire to spare others the anguish
and heartbreak they have suffered in search of the ultimate film
experience.  How?

They publish guidebooks.  

These guidebooks are a treasure trove, and have reviews of all of 
the movies the critic has seen.  The very best guide books even have maps
of how to get to the theater, unfortunatly without standardized names
they are very awkward, reading like "Take the four-lane highway that
goes north over the old bridge to the intersection of the street without
a sidewalk where you should turn left and then proceed until you see
the theater with the attractive front, not the ugly one. Then you will 
get to see a good movie about a chrome robot."  To circumvent this problem,
the guide books started developing their own systems of street and theater
and movie naming that were internally consistent through out their guide.
At least whenever they referred to "Highway 7" and "Bridge alpha" and 
"Street B7" and "Chrome Dude 2" in different parts of the guide you knew
they were referring to the same thing, relative to that particular guide 
book's  system. The movie critics even occasionally read each other's books,
and some tried to use the same names for streets, theaters and movies, but
unfortunately more often then not they didn't.

After a movie has been out for a while, critics start ascribing titles 
to it for their guidebooks, and as time passes instead of referring to
"that second movie with Arnold what's-his-name playing a Terminator 
where he comes back as a good of guy" they starts calling the movie
Terminator 2, or Robot Turnabout, or Chrome Dude.  Many people read 
the guidebooks of different movie critics so when their friends say 
"Hey, Robot Turnabout was bloody great!" they can reply "Oh, T2! yeah 
I liked it too!". Of course, they can never be absolutely be sure they
are talking about the same movie, only by sharing their experiences 
getting to the theater and their descriptions of the plot and characters
can the reach some degree of assurance that they are indeed talking 
about the same thing.

Some people in this imaginary world assert that you should never claim
to have seen a particular movie, because you can never be sure and you
would just be stroking your ego to say so.  Fortunatly no one listens
to those people, cause if they did then no one would ever find out 
where the good movies were playing.

With that world in mind, people who ask the question you dislike people
answering I would compare to people asking "Have you been to see 
Terminator 2?" in my imaginary world.  The first category of person asking
wants to know what the movie was like.  The second wants to see the movie
for himself, and wants directions to the theater.  The third saw "a" movie
and wants to compare notes to confirm that it was indeed T2.  The fourth
saw the movie, knew what it was, and wants a kindred soul to share a
"Wow, weren't the fx great!?!" over a cup of coffee with.

NOT answering seems like the height of ego to me, movies are a common 
thing, anyone who wants to can go see one.  Are my experiences so precious
that I can't just "give them away" to anyone who asks?  If someone asks me
if I have been in state X, what is the big deal if I answer honestly? It's
about as extraordinary as seeing the statue of liberty, not everyone gets
to, but big deal, I'm not going to deify myself but saying "I can't 
answer your question, as I am trying to evolve to seeing bigger and
bigger statues and if I was wrong about seeing the one you mentioned it
would be an impediment on my quest."  Answer the god damn question! You 
either have or you haven't, assume he is smart enough to be able to take
what you saying with the APPROPRIATE grain of salt. Answer to the best of
your ability, right or wrong, at least you are sharing a data point
someone can use to calibrate their own experience with.  Trust them to
determine what is useful or meaningful in your answer, if they didn't
want to know, why did they ask?  To share is a blessing, not a curse.

The worst answers, worse than no answers at all, are "Yeah, I saw T2, on 
a scale of 1 to 10 it was Kidney Chakra.  It was a sublime as the sound
of one hand clapping.  When you can snatch the ticket from my hand,
grasshopper, then you are ready to go to the theater."  Unfortunatly
around here such answers seem to abound. They are cute, but would you 
like all of your questions answered like that?  "What's for dinner,
honey?" "                    , If you see the dinner, and it sees you,
you have attained nurishment, understanding that the first step to 
understanding all, Dear."

>Second of all, how do you know that your experience of such and such a state
>truly was the state described?

Well, you don't.  It helps to read over the guide books a few times so you
can recognise the landmarks on the way to the theater, and to review the plot
of the film.  Better yet, read several guide books and correlate them.  Maybe
best, ask someone else if they have seen the movie you thought you saw.

>    --Suppose you only think you attained a state of samadhi or whatever, but
>      you really didn't.
>    
>      Well, telling the world or others that yeah I attained this state 
>      described by such and such only builds up your ego.  It does no good to
>      others by saying this.

Hogwash!  It could do a great service for others.  What is more 
encouraging than finding out that someone else, Mr. Joe Ordinary, can do
something that might have appeared difficult or impossible.  So Joe 
stretched the truth a bit, and now 10,000 other Mr. and Ms. Ordinaries
are out trying it for themselves because Joe said he could.  And they
are doing it.

My first exposure to mysticism was reading a book by John Lilly, I think
it was probably "The Center of the Cyclone".  I was about 11 at the time, 
and I immediatly realized that what he was writing about was what I was
experiencing at the time.  Suddenly, I was no longer alone in my universe,
I no longer thought I was going crazy, my future turned from a dark gloom
to the brilliance of limitless potential.  The experience was probably 
similar to that a lesbian or gay teenager has when she moves from rural
hicksburg to The Big City and discovers that indeed other people are 
like them and they are OK and life looks like it might be worth living
after all.

John Lilly could probably be credited with saving my life,  I don't think
I would have lasted another couple years before I would have called it
quits, considering what I was going through.  But looking back now on
his writing I have to chuckle, it's so full of inaccuracies and 
misunderstandings and simply wrong things that I realize it wasn't so 
much the technical aspects of mysticism he was discussing that were
useful to me, it was that he was honestly trying to describe what
he thought he was experiencing, and that he wasn't scared, he was 
excited! He managed to convey that elusive kernel, the essence of the 
mystical experience, to me.  Undoubtably his mistook any number of
'states' he was in for other 'states', maybe he even stretched things
a bit to satisfy his own ego or validate his imagination.  Certainly
his books are the most technically useless bunches of kindling on my
bookshelf, but they were the universe to me at 11. If however
he didn't take that chance, to tell others about his level of realization,
or maybe if Toshi had been around to talk him out of sharing his meager
experiences with the world, I wouldn't be around now.  

>      It can hinder your development in thinking this because you are
>      just pumping up your ego rather than being of any service.

You are sort of assuming that attaining "state whatever" is some kind of
mega ego-boost for seekers.  Those who are still bound by such a 
consuming ego have barred themselves from the higher planes, it is truly 
one of those wonderful little perks of being a voyager among the higher
realities that you are spared from the company of assholes while visiting
those distant regions.

>--Description and analysis of an experience is fine, but saying since this
>  sounds like samadhi or whatever, so I have experienced it can be harmful.

Baseless.  Harmful to what?  Say what you think, people who are interested
will listen, those who aren't, won't.  

>--Comparison of experience is fine, to see if you are following the road map,
>  but saying that you are at a certain stage may really be fooling yourself.

Is this the map that has chakras all over it?  Or were you speaking about
paths in general?

>A final example I'll give is with the opening of the chakras.

Oh no you won't! [Chakra example deleted.]

>In summary, if you have a certain experience, be careful of your interpretation
>of it.  You may be fooling yourself.

It has become evident I have to add yet another class of person asking 
the movie question.  The final class hasn't seen the movie, and when you 
answer that you have, they don't believe you.

>Toshi
>tt@wag.caltech.edu
>
>P.S. We all do this.  At least I do.  I'm sure not perfect...

At least you do?  Then stop, if it bothers you.  I don't "do this", but
if it lends you some comfort that others share your faults, continue 
believing whatever you desire, like similar types of self-gratification
though, such beliefs and practices are best indulged in private.

Aaron
nabil@cse.ogi.edu

P.S. Thanks John, wherever you are!