From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: What do you do when....
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:20:15 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: eomer.hw.stratus.com

>I would be interested in hearing what you think is acceptable music.  By your
>interpretation of those verses, no music that was similar, or based on, any
>worldly music is acceptable.  What is left?

I appreciate all those (except one) who have responded to my initial posting
about Christian rock.  I have received more replies to this post than any other
post to any other newsgroup.  Most (maybe it was all) replies were either
combative or nicely worded oppositions to my stand.  However, after
replying to all these mailings (I hope I didn't miss someone), I received
many responses that demonstrated that I had at least caused people to 
think about their own convictions in this matter a bit more closely.  That
is all I really hoped to accomplish anyway...to have people look inwardly
at just how they felt about this topic and why they felt this way, then to
compare it to the word of God.  I don't expect most will change, and if
some do, it may be a gradual change.  But at least you all now have been
able to query someone like myself concerning this topic. For all those
who really want to know, I try to apply the same principles in other
areas of my life such as TV, movies, reading material, etc.  I don't
consider myself "unfulfilled" and I certainly do have fun.  I am a sinner,
just like everyone, and I too have areas in my life that require constant
attention.  If you can honestly say that you have looked inward and 
have a true peace that your actions, words, thoughts, regarding this
matter are Christ-like and what He would have for your life, than that
is your conviction, and I won't argue with that.  But please be honest 
with yourself.  I was an avid listener of rock and "Christian rock" at
one time, but was convicted through principles in God's word.  I believe
that Christ would have all true believers "of one mind" in all things.
I would like to print a reply here that I sent to another netter which may
help explain my position for all those who did not reply directly to me and thus
did not get a personal response from me.  Please understand that I am
attacking no one.  My intent is edification of fellow believers.  Always
compare what others say with the word of God.  If you find what I say to
be contrary to the Bible, than don't listen to me.  Ultimately, you
are responsible for your own spiritual walk.

> For me, it is not a discussion of rights and wrongs. I sincerely hope I
> will understand you (and, far more important, the Lord's will) better.
> Furthermore, I would like to stress the fact that I am not a native
> speaker of English. I hope it will not distract you from what I try to
> say of ask.
> 
This should pose no problem.  I supervise someone from Vietnam, China,
and India...all with different accents and different command of the
English language.  I should be able to understand.  I hope that the
opposite applies, since I find that some phrases or examples I use
can be very foreign to someone not raised in the US.

> You start your article with two citations of the Bible (Romans 12:1-2
> and Philippians 4:8). To start with the latter: of course we have to
> think about good, lovely things (and act accordingly)! However, this is
> only applicable to rock music if you think that all rock music is good
> or all rock music is bad. And that is not what I think. I just can't
> generalize it. Or is this a simplification?
> 
This is a somewhat delicate area where the words I use to describe my
position are hard to come by without writing a novel.  I will try to
explain myself breifly.

I do not believe that we can separate the two verses I used from this issue.
I am applying them together rather than separately.  Is music, in itself,
inherently good or bad?  I'm not sure if I can answer that.  I do know that:

1) If certain music causes me to think unGodly it is wrong for me.
2) If certain music causes me to feel unGodly it is wrong for me.
3) If certain music makes me look unGodly to others it is wrong for me.
4) If certain music has control over me, it is wrong for me.
5) If certain music causes me to act unGodly, it is wrong.
6) If I listen to music and it causes other spiritually weaker Christians
    to falter in their walk with God, it is wrong for me.

These are all very straight forward statements from clear principles
in God's word (I could use verses for each but don't have the time at the 
moment to look them up).  I hope you can at least agree with these
statements. Now the question is...does Christian rock make any of the
above statements for me true?  If any ONE of the above would be true,
I believe it is wrong for your life.  Remember, we all have liberty
in Christ.  All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.

> The crux of the matter is I think indeed the scripture of Romans
> 12:1-2. We better be not conformant to the world. I wholeheartedly
> agree! However, who is imitating who? Are christian groups imitating
> the world by playing rock? Or has the world taken over rock from the
> church? As Cliff Richard puts it like this: "God is the only creator;
> the Devil copies and deformes." Larry Norman says: "Rock 'n roll is
> from the church. It has been based on negro-sprituals." (Both citations
> are paraphrased.)
> 
> This is probably nothing new for you. Therefore I am very anxious to
> know *how* you realized "just how wrong this Christian rock movement
> is."
> 
I do NOT believe that rock music had it's derivation from negro spirituals.
Some spirituals may have been adapted into rock, but any superficial
comparison of the two will show major differences.  Besides, the
real thrust of my argument is not the origin of the music.  It isn't
even whether the music is inherently wrong or not.  By using the verse
in Romans, I'm trying to show that the world has an accepted music style.
Rock music is, indeed, music that the world enjoys, encompasses, propogates,
and uses for many purposes...in many cases to promote Satanism, anti-
Christian behavior, sexual immorality, homosexuality, murder and other
violence, etc.  This music is accepted by the world, and is thus, worldly.

Most Christian rock music, takes the music part (melody, instrumentation, etc)
and look (how the performers dress, act on stage, etc) from this worldly
rock and changes the lyrics, hoping to appeal to all those who want what the
world offers but with a different message.  When non-believers look at these
"conforming" Christians, they don't really see any difference.  They aren't
pointed to Jesus Christ, the savior.  They are not brought to a position of
repentance, belief, and desire for salvation.  No, instead they find the
music and "look" appealing because it is exactly what they had.  They don't
have to give up anything to follow Christ.  "Hey, I can follow Christ and
be just like I was before!"  if they even see Christ at all.

Whether or not rock music evolved from good foundations or not (and we
might differ here)...the fact that the world has adopted it as it's
own and uses it for evil, makes it worldly.  We, as Christians, need to
be separate and holy.  Different from this world.  We are new creatures and must
allow our light to shine before all men.  Does listening to or performing
Christian Rock Music encourage this or detract from it.  My answer is
detract...perhaps yours is not.  This is an area in every Christian's life
that the individual must deal with.  I had to (yes, I did listen to all this
at one time).  I was convicted by the Holy Spirit through God's word on this
subject.  


> John 17 says that we are *in* the world but not *of* the world (again a
> paraphase). What does that mean?

It means that we are IN the world.  We need to where clothes, live in
shelter, interact with people, eat food in the world, pay taxes,
live under government, etc.  We cannot escape our POSITION within
the world.  We need to live and interact with people and things
around us.  No changing that.

We are not OF the world means that we must be different from the sin that
surrounds us.  We must strive to be Christ-like in all things.  We must
love the things Christ loves and hate the things Christ hates (sin).  We
must not conform our standards, goals, appearance, actions, thoughts, etc
to those that the world has but to those that Christ would have of us.
In shorter terms, we must be different.  What if the world is conformed
to Christ...then won't we be like the world?  Christ tells us that this
isn't the case.  Because we love Christ, the world will hate us.  The
things of the world are OPPOSITE the things of Christ.  Again, many
teachings on this if you want me to make refernce to the Bible.

> I don't think (and neither do you, I
> think) that it means that everything we do should differ from our
> fellow human beings. However, it also does not mean that we can do
> everything our fellow human beings do. We should not adopt the style of
> the world to attract people.

Precisely...or for any other motivation, no matter how worthy the motive.
Remember, to obey is better than sacrifice.

> On the other hand, we should not adopt an
> `out-of-this-world' style to abhor our fellow human beings.

What do you refer to as 'out of this world'?  I would not consider
myself worldly in most things (obviously I'm a sinner and can always
improve) and I don't repulse people.  I don't drink or party or listen to
rock or advocate sinful lifestyles...some of which has caused some to
be turned off (for example, I don't agree with homosexuality so some
people who do support it  find me narrowminded or bigoted). I never say
that I dislike people, however.  I must love all people, though I may hate
their sin. For the most part, however,
I am well liked and there is some hidden respect for my positions from
some.  Others, who choose to reject God, probably find me annoying.  But
I always try to point to Christ in my words and actions so that others
may choose to accept or reject.

> We should
> not isolate ourselves from the world (like monks used to do).

Agreed.  We must spread the gospel.  That can be done without 
compromising oneself and becoming like the world.  You don't need
music that is just like the world's to attract people to Christ.

> We should not run with the world, either.
> 
> A lot of `should not's. However, the `should's are more important, I
> think.

Both are equally important.  I believe if you look to the should's,
you'll find the should not's closely attached.
> 
Thanks for the reply.  Hope this helps!

Yours in Christ,
mc
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian