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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:12:57 -0500
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Kathryn Conway <conway@CS.UNC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl and symptoms

Dave,

Re your theory about using penicillin and antifungals together....
My naturopath (and others) implicate systemic yeast infections as the cause
of seborrhea, another scalp and skin condition.  I don't know about psoriasis,
but if it has similar causes, an antifungal might help the condition.  The catch
would be though, that using antibiotics promotes the growth of yeast, so in a
short period of time you'd be back in the same situation.  It is a very
circular situation, because an overgrowth, or systemic infection of yeast
has a negative effect on your immune system.

In fact, like many other health problems, systemic yeast infections have many
symptoms common to CFS.  The one symptom they don't have  in common is the
elevated temp some PWC's (such as myself) have.  That's not to say that you
can't have both conditions at the same time, of course.

But back to my main point, I think there could be problems in jointly using
those two remedies, as joint use may tend to reinforce both conditions as they
work through their cyclical effects.

Another point that has bothered me about massive doses/extended use of
antibiotics - everything that I've read  from a naturopathic point of view
emphasizes that antibiotics can ultimately have a negative effect on the
immune system.  It seems that in the long run, they may create just as many
problems as they solve, since all of the conditions we've been discussing
(Lyme, CFS, etc.) are characterized by deficient immune systems.  Any other
thoughts on this?

Kathryn Conway
conway@cs.unc.edu
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
From: aa328@Freenet.carleton.ca (Sandy Shaw)
Subject: New Node joining
Reply-To: aa328@Freenet.carleton.ca (Sandy Shaw)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:31:13 GMT


Hello. As you may be able to figure out from my address my name is Sandy Shaw 
(The male type }8=)). I am finally picking this up through the UUCp News Group ALT.MED.CFS.
This is comming into the new and still developing FREENET system in Ottawa Ontario, via Carleton University.
I am in the process of putting up an information system on this FREENET for CFS Oriented discussion. 
So I hope you will be hearing from me and others from this area.

 
-- 
Sandy Shaw       a PWC
The News Hound
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:41:59 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Roger Burns <BFU@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      Lyme disease discussion

As an individual I am growing somewhat tired of the current Lyme
disease thread between Mr. O'Donnell and Dr. Nye, in that it is
taking increasingly larger amounts of effort on this reader's part to
find less and less discernably valuable information in the
discussion.  This is of greater importance on the CFS-L list compared
with others since personal energy is a more precious commodity among
CFS-L readers.  I wish that these very knowledgeable participants
could focus more on a pursuit of positive knowledge and scientific
inquiry, and do so preferably in a spirit of collegiality, even if
they are accustomed to doing things in a different manner on sci.med
and other places.  The personalized comments that have so far been a
part of this discussion are unnecessary for the pursuit of knowledge
and are a pain to wade through.

It would also be valuable to keep in mind that the vast majority of
CFS-L readers are patients who don't have a medical background,
and so when replying to a posting from a knowledgeable participant,
it would be good to make plain for the typical reader the
background of each point even if you know full well that your
respondent is completely familiar with that background.

I invite CFS-L readers to comment on the tone and value of the current
discussion, either by posting to the list or to me privately.


Roger Burns      bfu@cu.nih.gov / bfu@nihcu.bitnet / fidonet 1:109/432
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion list
CFS-L  on LISTSERV at NIHLIST.BITNET or LIST.NIH.GOV
Newsgroup: alt.med.cfs
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:56:45 LCL
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         John Setel O'Donnell <jod@EQUATOR.COM>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

    Sorry folks.  I had actually already decided not to reply to O'Donnell's
    last post.  It was clear to me that the discussion wasn't going anywhere
    and it is a little off-topic for this list.  I have also been getting
    the feeling that my role as skeptic here is not entirely welcome.  I
    guess I just can't sit on my hands when I see someone posting as fact
    something I believe to be wrong or unscientific.  So I'll be off.  See
    y'all round the net.

I'm really sorry to hear this.  I have been really pleased at your
patience and persistence in thinking about the materials I've been
posting.

Let me apologize if my angry tone seemed directed at you.  I want to
be clear that I'm not angry at you.  I am angry at the denial, apathy
and ignorance that's resulted in our current shameful research situation,
and in the prolonging of suffering for many thousands.

I'm glad of your willingness to jump in and participate.  And I
challenge you again to show a scientific basis for the belief of
Steere et al. that they're curing people.  In the light of now
repeated studies in peer-reviewed journals _culturing the spirochete_
from the bodies of those treated extensively with antibiotics, how can
any denial possibly persist?  And in light of the work of others
elucidating some of the survival mechanisms, including
intracellularity, how can a call for more Federal funding for reseach
be dismissed as "unscientific"?

-------
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:20:01 +0100
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         GERARD VAN EYK <IVASEC@URC.TUE.NL>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

Adding to my earlier posting, saying that I'm not so much against
continuing the O'Donnell/Nye discussion: We as CFS sufferers are
depending on the outcome of this *negotiation af the truth*. It
is painful to see how that process works. It seems too often that
quite other factors play a role in the progress of this *truthfinding
process* than the care for the sufferers. Could O'Donnell and Nye
make clear that they, on a deeper level, really care for the
sufferers? What is their real conviction. One,at least, explained
his role as a *skeptic*. A very important role indeed, but, helas,
not very rewarding in the public eye. We should be grateful for the
courage to take up that role.
Gerard ivasec@urc.tue.nl
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
From: hans@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Hans Lehmann)
Subject: Summary to "AMALGAM" wanted
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:54:23 GMT
Summary: Who could mail me some information about "Amalgam"
Keywords: Amalgam, Summary

Hi,
I have read, that in this newsgroup you have discussed about amalgam
in teeth. Unfortunately these articles are expired in my mailbox.
Who could send a summary to me or post it in this newsgroup once more please?

Regards

Hans

*-----------------------------*--------------------------------------*
*    Hans D. Lehmann          *  UUCP:          hans@mcshh.hanse.de  *
*   Sportzenkoppel 49         *  Z-Netz:        hans@edgar.zer       *
*    2000 Hamburg 67          *  BTX:           040 603 83 44        *
*  Voice: 040 603 83 44       *                                      *
*-----------------------------*--------------------------------------*
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:26:51 -0500
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         KEGANRO@HUGSE1.HARVARD.EDU
Subject:      holidaze

        Just wanted to write a quick post to thank Dale and Dorothy for
responding to my post about going away for the holidays.  Good suggestions...

        Dorothy, I particularly appreciated your saying that in your
experience lots of people make a significant jump in their recovery at
around 3 years.  I sure do hope so.

        So I'm off to
 Connecticut for a week...leaving tonight...luckily a friend of mine will be
driving, so I can just veg out in the back seat.  Hope everyone survives the
holidays okay -- Kate
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:46:32 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         "ROGER A. GUILES" <RAGUILES@MAJOR.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl
              "GLADSTONE%CSMCMVAX.BITNET@LIST.NIH.GOV" at Dec 24, 92 11:42 am

While recovering from and ear infection, treated with Ceclor,
I developed overgrowth of a naturally occurring one-cell
organism that was treated with Flagyl. No bad effects except
that my diarrhea ceased. (Thank God.) I think the Flagyl
controversey should also cease. (Thank Heaven.)

Regards,  Roger G. (raguile@major.cs.mtu.edu)
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:06:27 -0500
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         KEGANRO@HUGSE1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

I just read Roger's post asking others on the list what we think of the
current Lyme disease discussion, and thought I'd add my 2 cents.  I think
there's room on the list for both personal experiences and more technical
information.  I appreciate the knowledge of both Mr. O' Donnell and Dr.
Nye, and am glad they are taking the time and effort to write their opinions,
even tho it's difficult for me to figure out who's perspective I agree with.
I do think it would be helpful to keep the flames low, and to make an effort
to make things as clear as possible for non-technical readers.


        I know it's been said before, but I want to add my thanks to Roger
for the great job you're doing.  I really appreciate how sane and thoughtful
your posts are, and also all the work you put in managing the list and respondin
   g
to all our questions about how to access information.  I really enjoy the
support and info I get from this list.

        So has the volume on the list been so low because everyone's
overloaded with the holidays?  I'm going to visit my parents, traveling for
the first time since I got sick, 2 1/2 years ago.  I'm pretty nervous...
my family has basically been great and understanding about CFIDS, but I'm
worried about being around so much activity.  They live in a small house, and my
    sisters and brothers will all be home.  I usually sleep for 12 hours at nigh
   t,
and rest often during the day -- I hope having that schedule messed up won't
make me feel too         yucky to enjoy everyone's company.  I'm also scared of
feeling really down emotionally -- feeling really sad at all the activities I
can't do, and about all the losses this stupid illness has caused me.  I know
I'm supposed to be more accepting, but I've been feeling really angry and
resentful.  I WANT MY LIFE BACK.

Oh well.  I guess I had to let off a little steam.  I hope everyone has a
reasonably okay holiday -- and here's to all of our health in 93!  -- Kate
From: trish@wisdom.bubble.org (Trish Jamieson)
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Subject: TAN: Happy Holidays
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:49:02 GMT
Organization: Wisdom's pony express

Just wanted to wish you all happy holidays....

Merry Christmas!!
Happy Chanakkah!! (Hope I spelled that right?!)
Happy New Year!!!

Trish
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Organization: IUPUI Student Activities Office (317) 274-3931
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:15:12 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         NATHAN BRINDLE <NBRINDLE@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CFS-L *might* be down; Holiday Greetings

Well, my sister Beki tends to be excitable...

:)

Merry Christmas, one and all!  And may the new year bring relief from
whatever version you have!

-----------------------------------------------------BITNET:  NBRINDLE@INDYCMS
Nathan C. Brindle, Student Activities Office
Staff Advisor, ALPHA PHI OMEGA, TAU OMICRON CHAPTER
Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis
Internet:    NBRINDLE@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU
Compu$erve:  71461.2471@COMPUSERVE.COM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:28:46 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Flagil and CFS

FLAGIL, FLAGIL, FLAGIL!  What is it, and what is it used for ?!
    This IS exciting!





                     Thanks Roger, and Merry Holidays!


                                     BEKI

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:09:40 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

Just a note of "THANKS!" for your help answering my question!


                            HAPPY HOLIDAYS!



                                           BEKI

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:57:40 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Roger Burns <BFU@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      Please don't leave

>    ...  I have also been getting
> the feeling that my role as skeptic here is not entirely welcome.  I
> guess I just can't sit on my hands when I see someone posting as fact
> something I believe to be wrong or unscientific.  So I'll be off.  See
> y'all round the net.
>
> David Nye
> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu

Dr. Nye, PLEASE don't leave us just yet!  I wish that your contributions
would remain available to us.  I'll mention that I've been admiring
the active discussions taking place on the newly-founded FIBROM-L list
and in particular the fact that they've had you available to them
in many of their discussions.  For some reason unknown to me, they
seem to deal with clinical issues a lot more than we do here, and as
I remember it, it is that kind of topic which has drawn responses
from you on that list more often than not.  You are the only MD on this
list who has been willing to be a regular participant.  PLEASE continue
to read and respond when something strikes your interest here on CFS-L.


Roger Burns      bfu@cu.nih.gov / bfu@nihcu.bitnet / fidonet 1:109/432
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion list
CFS-L  on LISTSERV at NIHLIST.BITNET or LIST.NIH.GOV
Newsgroup: alt.med.cfs
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:01:01 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Roger Burns <BFU@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      are there any Prodigies out there?

Is there anyone on this list who subscribes to Prodigy?  I have contacts
with people who frequent various electronic discussions about CFS, and
I've been told that Prodigy's SUPPORT area bulletin board system has
just added a discussion area for chronic fatigue syndrome, but I don't
know anyone who actively participates.  I want to keep in touch with
what's going on there and I have some questions, so if anyone can clue
me in, please give a holler.


Roger Burns      bfu@cu.nih.gov / bfu@nihcu.bitnet / fidonet 1:109/432
Editor, CFS-NEWS Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Electronic Newsletter
   newsgroup: bit.listserv.cfs.newsletter
List-owner, CFS-L discussion
   newsgroup: alt.med.cfs
CFS-NEWS and CFS-L, both on LISTSERV at NIHLIST.BITNET or LIST.NIH.GOV
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:50:10 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

Thank you for your very informative posting on various aspects of Lyme.
    I really have just one simple(?) question though; Is there any way of findi
ng out if Lyme caused my CFS- at this late stage (4 years later!, and I'm much
better now) I mean, is it "Spirochete(s) that need to be detected or what? I ha
d almost all of those symptoms at one time or another throughout this (crap!)
for lake of a better word, and at one point I DID have a rash that lasted for
6 or 8 weeks. But I think I had been sick for almost a year when THAT happened.
    When I first got SICK I was living in the catskills and Lyme disease was
rampant but I got sick in the winter and didn't suspect a tick as the villan!
    When I moved to Dublin, Ireland and breathed COAL polluted air every day fo
r months is when the illness started to completly screw up my life.  Should I
get a test to see if Spirochetes are present in my blood?  also, at one point I
was on FLAGIL for an infected tooth and this short treatment seemed to help my
health unbelievably--this was 2 years ago and I'm STILL much better ?? anyone?

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Fri, 25 Dec 1992 08:55:17 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl and symptoms
              24 Dec 1992 23:02:00 CST from <ACKERMDJ@MEMSTVX1.M EMST.EDU>

  I won't laugh! I think there could be something to any theory that has been
persued with that rate of success.
  I DON'T have a history of sore throats, per se, however, the one and only
time I EVER had STREP THROAT , was while I was in Ireland, just before getting
the FLAGYL for my tooth.  The strep was treated with Penicillan and I was well
in a week or two, but my tooth was never really cured. I needed major dental wo
rk and I'm not opposed to the idea that a chronic infection in my mouth for a f
ew years prior to CFS diagnosis, probabably lowered my immune responses, thus
making me a target for whatever turns *IT*(?) into CFIDS/ME/FM..whatever!!!
  I WAS sick with sore throats  and BRONCHITIS type colds/flu during my year in
 Dublin but this stopped when I moved back to the states. At that point it was
summer and the only thing I seemed to bring home with me was FATIGUE and a bad
attitude! I thought my occupation, the pollution, and the weather were the culp
rits!  Please tell me more about this theory and treatment! happy X-MAS! BEKI

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
From: RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET (BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER)
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Subject: Re: Lyme disease discussion
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:13:14 GMT
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


      Just to add a note on antibiotics- Can't you become unresponsive to them
after a while; I mean penicillin doesn't work on me anymore because of years of
 taking it for sore throats and that infected tooth that I let go for some time
.  The FLAGIL worked on my OTHER symptoms but NOT well on my tooth.  The dentis
t gave it too me because he said it worked well with the penicillin (I was in
Ireland when I received the Flagil, I guess that is a common practice over ther
e?)

                                   YOUR SIS'!

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:57:00 PST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Liz Heller <lizh@STARCONN.COM>
Subject:      Laughter a Rx for Health
              31 Dec 1992 23:12:16 EST <9301010412.AA10648@apple.com>

Okay, here's something that's really funny.  I was baking bread the other
morning.  I had preheated the oven, but then decided it was too early to
do that, so shut it off.  The bread was rising nicely in the bread pans,
and looking beautiful.  I set the oven to 425 and put in the bread to bake.
After 20 minutes, I turned the dial down to 350, and peeked at the bread.
It looked really strange - some of it had fallen over the sides of the pans,
and it didn't look baked at all!  I decided I must have put too much yeast in,
or something.  About 45 minutes later, I went to take it out.  Now even more
of it had fallen down over the sides of the pans, onto the oven racks.  I just
couldn't figure out what was wrong!  I put it back to bake some more.  About
half an hour later I realized that the oven was still off - I had never turned
it back on to preheat.

A couple of years ago I would have been in despair, seeing this just more
evidence that my brain is out to lunch.  Now, thank God, it's something to
laugh about.  I don't mean to trivialize the real despair that we all feel
at our very stressful situations - I know it's extremely hard to cope with
all this, through bitter experience.  But I sure enjoy laughing when I can!

Best wishes,
Liz Heller
lizh@starconn.com

PS. What was left of the bread came out fine, and we also had an interesting
looking sculpture in the oven for a few days.
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