From: khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
Subject: Re: Orthadox Judaism and women
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:13:07 GMT

In article <FAIGIN.93Jan9083637@solarium.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:11:25 GMT, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) said:
>
>>>First of all, you must remember that from the point of view of the Orthodox,
>>>their behavior is not sexist. Women have a set of obligations given by G-d;
>>>men have a set of obligations from the same source -- and you don't question
>>>the source. Rather, you are thankful that you have your set of obligations.
>>>Neither set is more or less important -- all are important for the sanctity
>>>of the world. You thank G-d each day that you have been given your
>>>obligations.
>
>> Your last sentence says that you thank G-d each day that you have
>> been given your obligations.  
>
>You didn't read what I wrote closely. I said that the Orthodox thank G-d in
>this way. Personally, I am Reform, and I do not hold with the Orthodox
>position. Like you, I do not feel the Orthodox approach is appropriate to this
>day and age. However, unlike you, I recognize why the Orthodox feel the way
>they do, and why FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW they do not consider their behavior
>sexist. 
>
>> Perhaps you or another poster would
>> care to explain why men thank G-d they were not created female,
>
>From *MY* understanding, it is because if they were created female, they
>wouldn't have the great honor of being obliged to study Torah. Torah is the
>center of Orthodoxy.

Torah is not the center of Orthodoxy. Torah is the center of every Jew: Reform,
Conservative, Orthodox, whatever. I am Orthodox, but if I were Reform or 
Conservative I would be insulted by this. Torah is something all Jews live
by whatever your interpretaion of it is.

>
>> while women thank G-d that they were created what they were.  

Before I try to answer this, I would like to say that this is just 
my opinion that could be wrong, since I did not discuss this particular 
question with any Rabbi, but my answer is going to be based on what I learned
before.
We all know that men are OBLIGATED to learn Torah and women are not. "Nashim
vaavadim uktanim pturim mitalmud Torah"--Rambam,Mishneh Torah, Hilchot
Talmud Torah. (Translation: "Women, slaves, and minors are free from the 
obligation of Torah study." and he goes on saying : "Nevertheless, 
a father is obligated to teach his son Torah while he is a minor, 
as [Deuteronomy 11:19] states: "And you shall teach them to your 
sons to speak about them."" Note! The verse does not say to teach 
your daughters.)  So, what does that mean? It means that if
they wanted to they could, in fact, learn if they had time. (Let's skip
the part about the slaves and minors because it is a different issue at 
this point.) Why do I say "if they had time"? Well, as we know women have
other resposibilities like taking care of the kids and so on. Now, that
does not mean that the husband does not have to help her, although, in 
some cases help is impossible.:-) 
So, at this point, I hope, I explained that women are not obligated to 
learn Torah. So, does that really mean that a woman can just not 
learn Torah at all then? In fact, there are a lot of arguments between
Rabbis about this issue. Since we know that if you don't learn there is
no way you can perform the mitzvot properly or complete, the statement 
that women don't have to learn Torah seems to be incorrect. So, is it?
Well, again there are probably tons of opinions of different Rabbis
on that, but what they seem to agree on is this. No, a woman does not
have to learn Torah like men do, but what she has to learn is that 
minimum that gives her the opportunity to be "shomer mitzvot".
 There is another argument that could be raised here. Why do we learn Torah as
Rambam said we should "day and night"? To get closer to HaShem. 
Indeed, what better way we have if not the gift from G-d to get
closer to Him, understand Him. I don't remember the sourse and feel free
to give it to me, but one of the Rabbis said that 'during the time of 
learning and only during the time of learning one is allowed to question
Torah and its mitzvot.'
So, now that you already forgot the original question, I will repeat it.
Why is it that in our morning prayer men say: "... for not having made me
a woman" and women say: "... for having made me according to His will"? 
Indeed, and that was a very good question, why don't women say similarly:
"... for not having made me a man"?
As I implied before, what is it that makes the Jewish lives of a man and a
woman so different from each other (I mean spiritually, not physically)? 
There is no doubt in my mind that it is the obligation of learning Torah. 
After all, it is the most important mitzvah there is. But at the same time, 
as I stated before, a woman must learn that minimum. So, what would it 
really mean for a woman to say: "... for not having made me a man"? 
It would mean that she is thanking G-d for not giving her the obligation 
of learning Torah.
That is exacly what you are saying Orthodox women lack. So, in fact when you
say that you are contradicting yourself. 
I would like to make my last point. Why is it that I said: "... that she is 
thanking G-d for not giving her the obligation of learning Torah"? Why would
it be wrong for me to say 'that she is thanking G-d for freeing her from the
obligation of learning Torah'? If in fact, I would have said that, then one
could say: "Hey, why not, after all, as you just said He did free her from
that, did not He?" So, why did I put it this way and not the other? And the
answer is the same. He did not free her from that obligation, she still has
it but on a totally different level, which I explained earlier, and which is
to learn that minimum that makes her "shomer mitzvot".

Thanks,
Dima
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  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )