HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Translation (was Re: twinkie names)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:04:12 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Brynjolfr wrote:

> This is something that has always confused me somewhat... I find the idea
> of translating one's name so that people have something a little more
> pronounceable or understandable to address one as as being the only real
> reason for translating one's name. For most names, there seems to be little
> point... 

I don't understand your confusion, Brynjolfr: That is the normal reason for
translating a name.  Cariadoc gave another good reason, "that [in period,]
names were normally translated into the local language."  What are you
missing? 

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Subject: Documentation
Organization:  Organization??? 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:37:52 GMT

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto, and especially unto the most
learned Hossein Ali Qomi, greetings from Alexander of Kiev --
 
I posted:
 
>>It should go without saying that the available documentation for
>>early period practices are almost never comparable to that for
>>late period practices.  All that this excessive concentration on
>>documentation can do is turn the Society into a bunch of Renaissance
>>swishes.
 
To which Hossein replied:
 
>I fear, my lord, that zeal has carried you farther than evidence will
>support.  Certainly there are more Renaissance documents extant than
>Carolingian documents.  However, this problem is not nearly as pernicious
>as you think for Western Europe after 1200.  There is ample documentation
>for most purposes for recreation of post-1200 combat.  I grant that much
>of it is not in the vernacular, while much of the late Renaissance material
>is, but that is a problem solvable by language-study.  From the thirteenth
>century onward the problem isn't lack of sources, but finding relevant
>information in the enormous mass of extant documents.
 
Actually, I am aware of that -- but I don't read Latin.  Please do bear
in mind, m'lord, that most of us are not scholars, and that whether we
be scholars or not, most of us do not have the leisure to learn new
languages in support of what is, after all, a hobby.  It was indeed
ill-advised of me to have written of "available" documentation.  The
sentence would have been more appropriate as:  "It should go without
saying that such documentation as is readily accessible to the
majority of SCA members for early period practices are almost never
comparable ...."  (But what a clumsy sentence that would have been. ;^))
 
So, to take an example from a field with which I am somewhat more
familiar than the history of manuals of swordsmanship:  In pragmatic
terms, Coke's _Institutes_ is, for me, available; while the _Corpus
Iuris Civilis_ with Accursius' _Glossa Ordinaria_ -- *the* legal
textbook of the 13th & 14th centuries -- is not.  (Unless, most learned
lord, you know of a modern English edition; I most certainly have not
been able to find one.)
 
>And have no fear, until the late fifteenth century the only
>"Renaissance swishes" in Europe were Italian.
 
Aye, but as you have yourself mentioned in another context, there
are far more Vikings per capita in the Society than in the period
of our re-creation.  That doesn't bother me all that much; what does
concern me is that excessive attention to documentation may result,
via the path of least resistance, in a similar statistical blip at
the other end of our period.
 
Yours in service to the Society, and to Humane Letters,
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East
 
Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:19:19 EDT
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Them's our boys! (was Re: why not pentacles)
 <1992Jul22.174535.8467@pbhya.PacBell.COM>

Hal Ravn, talking about police SCA members in LA:

>There are two SCA members (that I know of) on the force in or near Los
>Angeles.  (One of them, by the way, had a *very* near miss in the late
>unpleasantness there--a bullet went through his police helmet from
>front to back leaving him with a minor concussion.

Was this Sir Hanno, once-upon-a-time King of the East?  There's already a
story floating around the East Kingdom about how one of our ex-knights got
shot in the head in the LA riots and called it light .....

                                                            Therion :)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Regarding cameras at SCA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:27:33 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <712485643.F00003@ocitor.fidonet> Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:
>>      In closing milord, may I comment that I consider
>>      it unchivalrous to *judge* another *as* unchivalrous?               
>>      Their honor is their concern, milord...                             
>>                                                                          
>>Carolus Mediocris Malvoix                                                 
>>Montengarde An Tir                                                        
>>Broken thumb, testy.                                                      
>
>Notice that this puts you in the same category.  Perhaps I'm just
>testy, due to the flamewar against me, but this message seems to be
>riding the edge of hypocrisy.

Of course it does...but I offer it in the spirit of advice, as
opposed to criticism. If their honor is their own concern, then
it need not concern (or bother) you, save as it touches upon you.

Also, my comment is directed mainly at the tourney field, and
should be viewed in that context.

Broken Thumb, Not healing, VERY Testy,
I remain Carolus Mediocris Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period heraldric recreation
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:19:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712341446.F00005

In a message to All <07-27-92 03:35> Richard Boyko wrote:

RB>  From: 0005181681@mcimail.COM (Richard Boyko)
RB>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
RB>
RB>  Greetings unto the Rialtans from Layamon le Vavasour!
RB>      I think the idea of having heralds observing the battle from
RB>  mount st. hellengone is a good idea. Having the herald of the losing
....
RB>      I do have one reservation. Since the mountain in question is
RB>  located in southern an tir, the logistics of travelling so far may
RB>  be somewhat daunting. The heralds may also have difficulty seeing
RB>  the battle.
RB>     Am I right, or should I have my cartographer clapped in irons?

Well, at the very least, you may wish to speak to him severely. The mountain 
in question is to the north of Three Mountains. It's even north of 
Stromgard. It *is* south of Madrone. There are several shires that could be 
used to more closely define it's location, but alas, I have not a proper map 
(non-mundane) at hand, and I fear that I would only confuse matters to rely 
on my memory.

(mundanely, it's north of Vancouver, WA. East of Olympia, and south of 
Seattle/Tacoma).
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 02:45:45 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

In article <AePL9Te00WB482fzlB@andrew.cmu.edu>, David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
> Might I suggest that Stephen's missive may be useful in convincing
> people that courtesy (of even the most basic sort) _does_ have a
> place in the S.C.A. and the Rialto?

Hear, hear!

I just finished replying to a post from a certain person who, in an article
to me, went within the course of one article from being vaguely insinuating
to being blatantly insulting.  It was difficult not to take "an eye for an
eye," but I did my best not to reply in like kind.

I've noted with some concern the increasing frequency of this type of 
discourtesy on the Rialto.  (I noticed it several months ago when a certain
gentle jumped down several peoples' throats [including mine own] for not
automatically knowing when he was being sarcastic.)

Then came people airing the dirty laundry of their regions, and flinging 
enough insults at each other to make the Rialto appear like a political
campaign.

Now, unhappily, the snide remark seems to be in vogue.


> Is there any consensus on this issue?

Well, mine opinion is that it hath no place on the Rialto.  The Rialto USED
to be one of the most flame-free environments on the Net.  One could post
an opinion and not get flamed for it; at most, people would *courteously*
correct mistaken beliefs and misinformation.


> Do we want to discourage outright discourtesy?

I, for one, would like to; from the first day I joined the SCA in AS XXII, 
I was told that we're all supposed to practice chivalry and courtesy, not 
behave like drunken brawlers in a portside tavern.


> By the way, where do our _modern_ notions of courtesy come from?

Why, Miss Manners, of course!  :-)


> Bertram of Bearington

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:53:59 GMT

    Good Gentles All,
While looking through a "coffee-table book" about the middle ages
recently, I saw a 14th century illumination of two men (students?)
 fighting with sword and buckler while dressed in civilian clothes. I
have also seen other 14 c. illuminations of young priests being
 admonished for carrying weapons where one of them is carrying the same
sort of sword and buckler. They are dressed in civilian clothes as well.
In addition, there are ordinances prohibiting students from duelling
that date from before the 14th century. 
     I am wondering if there was some sort of "high middle ages light
weapon combat"? The swords used in the illumination look to be steel cut
and thrust swords, like a sword of war, but none of the combatants are
wearing anything like armor. Does anyone know how these swords were
used? (ie were they primarily used to thrust, or were they swung? did
they use draw cuts?) Does anyone have any idea of how such a sword might
be adapted to SCA light weapons combat? I have a 14th century german
persona and it would be neat to be able to fence "in persona" rather
than adopting an alternate persona. (BTW I believe that 14th century
garb is just as adaptable to light weapon armor standards as is 16 th c. 
 or early 17th c. garb is. 
      
            Thanks,

                Lothar \|/
                        O
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 25 Jul 92 09:38:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712128434.F00001

ML>  From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
ML>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
ML>  <1992Jul24.112356.15216@agora.uucp>
ML>
ML>     Milord doth have ...[etc]...

Well, ahem...not milord certainly! Senora to you sir!  :-)

[Much about symbols and Easter bunnies omitted...]

I *wish* that we could make it possible that any symbol *only* represented 
what the bearer intended. We can't, sad though that is. (And gimme a break 
with the bunnies! :-)

I am in a similar situation, in fact, here in An Tir, where the Nazis have 
decided we have the Promised Land and they are going to take it from us...
Local racist Skinheads have adopted a symbol very dear to my heart, the 
Celtic cross (not the one in the PicDic, no feet on the bars..). To me it 
represents the ancient Celtic connection between St. Columba and the 
eventual emergence of modern Presbyterianism. But I'd be an ass to fly it 
from anything but a church tower any more... I hate to think the kinds of 
"friends" it would attract, much less the enemies... and what my neighbors 
would believe my sympathies were!

Sad to say, symbols develop a life of their own sometimes.

And yes, I'm aware that all pagans are not alike, and that modern paganism 
is not ancient paganism. I also have enough pagan friends to know that most 
if it looks very strongly to the past, in hopes of re-capturing the 
spirit of the "native" religion of Europe before the Inquisition.

Trees are good... trees are very good... (I once had a Jewish friend ask me 
if I thought it would be "wrong" of them to have a Christmas tree one year. 
The kids were bugging them to have this neat thing the other kids had, as 
children will. I said "Hey, if it doesn't bother me to have a pagan symbol 
in my house at Christmas, why should it bother you?" :-) As Yaakov could 
tell you, these folks were definitely *not* Orthodox! Anyway, they had their 
tree, the kids got suitably tired of it, and we all had a great time 
figuring out what ornaments would be suitable, or at least inoffensive. I 
don't believe a tree was necessary the next year...  :-)

But then this was a fairly close-knit small neighborhood, and it was the 
60s.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.waterloo.edu (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Another Pennsic tip
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:33:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.213617.13126@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>
>Teens drinking is *illegal*.

That depends on your local law, and what end of the 'teens we're talking about.
In Ontario, drinking age is 19; in some provinces it's 18.

Rhys
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 28 Jul 92 23:48:39 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <Bs3vD2.D5n@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>For Pennsic purposes, again I would accept anything that sounded right,
>which did not advertise itself as later that early 17th century, and that
>was in English.

I s'pose I must have missed something, but why English?

Arenwald von Hagenburg.
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tapes
Date: 17 Jul 92 04:15:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.711615569.F00002

Firstly, Tibor, if your unwitting "performance" is any recognizable part of 
the tape, it is illegal to use you in it without your written release.

Secondly, you could moon the camera whenever you see it!  :-)

Moreach NicMaolain
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:13:21 GMT

From article <BrsrEK.Go8@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>, by aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher):
> I suppose I understand why SCA fencing is done to the "death"--that's the
> way stick fighting works, after all.
> 
> But why do it that way?  Why not just seek to re-create upper-class sport
> fencing of the 16th century instead of those unpleasant death-duels from
> Italy?
> 

In the tournaments that I run, we have all sorts of different types
of lists.  We of course have the duel to the death, but we also include
an insult list, first blood only (kill your opponent and you are out),
fighting daggers with or without a rope between the combatants, 
team fighting and more.  There is no real need to have all of
the duels to the death.
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Filk and acceptability.....
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:19:48

    I've always had this urge to get a group to perform the Kings
's Singers' version of "I wanna hold your hand".  Having heard this 
 Beatles song sung in madrigal style is truly mindboggling.
     So, who would ask that I leave if I pulled this one off?
            Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: courtesy debate
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:59:55 GMT

In article <NV0goB1w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:

>Greetings!

>I'd like to suguest that this debate is not really grounded in a 
>problem with courtesy (since just about everybody on boths sides
>is generally polite), but in something quite different.

>I think it's really about how much value the non-scholarly,
>non-recreationist, non-medieval aspects of the SCA have; I
>would guess that Bertram thinks that these aspects are quite
>valuable, and that Hossein and Stephen at the very least wish
>that they would go away.

>You really don't look like your really arguing about politeness,
>folks, you look like you're arguing axioms.

Sort of.  We started discussing axioms, and the debate got rude, and 
degenerated into one on politeness, spiced up with a few cheap shots.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:30:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712341446.F00004

In a message to All <07-26-92 02:53> Ailsa N.T. Murphy wrote:

AN>  From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
AN>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
AN>
AN>  sounds like your university was a bunch of cowards to me...  or just a
AN>  bunch of clueless fucks.  mpost people who woudl join the SCA already
AN>  knwo enough about it to know that it isn't a satanist ortganization.
AN>  and you don't even know what it was she was into.  someoen said "black
AN>  magick" and it stuck...

From his posting it sounds like *she* said it.

You have to realize that not only are there pagans and witches like yourself 
out there, but there are also some *seriously* disturbed people who *claim* 
to be witches.

I have a lot of pagan friends and am as respectful of them and their beliefs 
as of anyone else. I *also* have had the experience of having a person in 
the next apartment whole *claimed* to be a witch. She was *seriously* out of 
touch with reality. Also, both I and a friend in the apartment *below* her 
could tell that she didn't know *anything* about witchcraft or magic. I'm 
well read on a lot of things. He's a practioner of gnostic magick. And we 
*both* caught her being incredibly ignorant in many occasions.

But to John Q. Public, *she* and this other person are both witches. Because 
they *get noticed*. Folks like you don't.

I'm note sure *how* the SCA should handle this. But I'm going to close with 
a modification of a line from a gay friend's .signature

"Most people think that they don't know any witches. That's what we get for 
hiding." 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: habura@vccnortha.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Regarding Cameras at SCA events
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:46:24 GMT

T. Archer asks what a reliquary is.

A reliquary is a container for a religious artifact. Most often the object
is a piece of a saint or other holy figure, but may be something else (a
piece of the True Cross, a thorn, etc.). They come in a vast array of shapes;
crowns, statues, boxes, orbs, you name it. I have seen a stunning reliquary
made from a large, semi-precious gem (the gem was sawed in half and hollowed
out on one side, and a thorn (the relic) was placed in the hollow. There are
two or three enameled "leaves" placed between the two halves, illustrating
Biblical scenes; the whole is held together by a large jeweled band. The
entire thing seems to be 4" in diameter.).

Mountains: The name I've heard for the hillock overlooking the field battle
at Pennsic is "No More Tears Mountain"...the reason being that when people
first began camping there, the heralds didn't cry that part of the site.

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Re:Regarding cameras at SCA events
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:37:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.195734.14336@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Eirik said:
>
>>  I've never been at a Court where flashbulbs went off (and No Flashes is
>> SCA policy). 
>
>No, it isn't.  It is East Kingdom law.
>
>	Arval.


Well...it *ought* to be SCA policy. I hate being blinded...as an occassional
guard to the thrones, I face outward, and get the brunt of this "wonderful"
modern invention. Fortunately, lately there has been more sensitivity shown
in this regard.

Moreach NicMaolain

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEEDED: Address of Brian of Leicester, Rhydderich Hael
Summary: Sorry to waste the bandwidth folks!  My computer won't reply to him.
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:06:43 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

> I urgently need to contact Brian of Leicester, who resides (or at least did as
> of last Pennsic) in Rhydderich Hael (or however you spell it).  

Simon, 
I received the e-mail message you sent me, but have been unable to reply.
I passed your message on.  The answer is "No!, There's no room." Sorry! :(

                                                       - Dagonell
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:16:35 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Bertram of Bearington (David Schroeder) writes:

> >Thanks...  This may be useful in convincing people why Filk has no
> >place in the SCA.
> > 
> >Stephen of the Grove

>Might I suggest that Stephen's missive may be useful in convincing 
>people that courtesy (of even the most basic sort) _does_ have a 
>place in the S.C.A. and the Rialto?

>By the way, where do our _modern_ notions of courtesy come from?
>(Since I feel that the problem cited above is with breaking 
> modern notions of courtesy, not necessarily period models.)

Good question.  I, personally, can't see what rule of modern courtesy
Stephen failed to observe.  He even said "thanks."  What you probably
object to is the *content* of Stephen's message rather than the form.
But disagreeing with someone is not a breech of courtesy.  Amy Vanderbilt
or one of the other experts on modern courtesy once wrote that if you 
want to insult someone, you can do so quite effectively without violating
the rules of courtesy -- more effectively than if you choose to ignore 
them.  Now, that having been said, what exactly was your problem with
Stephen's "missive?"

-- Nicholas van Leyden


Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA