From: usubrama@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Uma M Subramanian)
Subject: Re: more about india(from Subbarao)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:26:01 GMT

[ "The Lord then told Moses to tell the people of Israel ...."]


In article <92288.204725U15297@uicvm.uic.edu> Shyamala Parameswaran <U15297@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>Subbarao's note posted (with permission):

["Here, then, is Moses' address to Israel, stating all the laws God 
had commanded him to pass on to them: ..."]

>=========================================================================
>Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 14:48:06 MST
>From: rao@parikalpik.eas.asu.edu (Subbarao Kambhampati)
>Message-Id: <9210142148.AA27042@parikalpik.eas.asu.edu>
>To: U15297@uicvm.uic.edu
>Subject: Re: More About India/ Whither Patriotism
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
>In-Reply-To: <92288.100907U15297@uicvm.uic.edu>
>References: <1b6pn3INNhg0@bigboote.WPI.EDU> <1992Oct13.114428@IASTATE.EDU>
> <susanc.719011281@keckiris> <1992Oct14.140517.21083@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
>Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Arizona State University, Tempe
>Cc:
>
>
>Very nicely said. I can't believe that reasonable people like Uma S,
>Susan and others have made it their life's duty to "prove" that there
>is more physical sexual harrassment in India than there is in US.

We might differ in what we think is the severity of the problem in India
compared to the US. I wonder why that makes me unreasonable. It's very
easy for me to say "I can't believe that someone as reaonable as 
Subbarao K. ...". I'm not going to.

>Granted they want to do it counteract the other extermers who suggest
>that everything in India is just as great as everything here. Neither
>can I believe that they are trying to prove situation of Indian women
>to be worse than that of women in US based largely on conjectures
>about harrassment in public transportation (when there are many other
>glaring ways in which Indian situation lacks). 

Quite wrong. The comparisons I made weren't as naive as you presume.
I talked about the relative absence of harassment in public places (some
of which the Indian situation lacks such that the comparison makes sense 
within the western context. I talked about bars, gym, cafes and 
the streets.

>But, should opposing an
>extreme viewpoint always imply that you automatically take the other
>extreme? I wonder.

You have good reason to wonder. Why do you assume that one "automatically
assumes the other extreme"? I can't take a position that doesn't 
square with my perceptions and experience just so I sound -- to some --
more "balanced".

>[I mean, how does one compare the metros of Bombay
>where people are virtually plastered together, to the metros of DC
>where the maximum crowd is on July 4th night and even then there is a
>minimum distance between the standers? 

Again, I never talked about the public transportation here.

>How does one generalize from
>Uma S's existence proof of attempts at rape in a Madras college and
>surmise that there must be just as many or even more
>stranger/colleague rape cases in India than there are in USA, but it
>is just that in India they never get reported? ]
>
>

I'm tired of making the same old disclaimers. I said repeatedly that
I'm quite aware of the ways in which sexism and sexual harassment 
exists in the US. I said it again for hte records. I also said that
despite the problems in teh US regarding women's issues, there is
*no* comparison between India and the US with respect to sexual 
harassment in my experience. I still strongly believe that and I'll 
say it again.

Since you mentioned naive or unfair comparisons between the two 
countries, let me point out one more that thing that would make
my comparison less naive and stronger:

The range & level of activity outside of the home or office that a woman
engages in is vastly different in India and in teh US. We're talking
about the amount of harassment a woman suffers in India and in teh
US (whatever each of us would assess that to be) for completely
differnet worlds. Let me explain what I mean with my own activities
in teh US as comapared to India (and my life here is not differetn
from an American woman's in that respect).

In the US:

I've lived in apartments alone; I take long distance trips alone driving
around in strange cities looking for a motel to stay at night; I stay 
in motels alone; I jog on the road; I work out in teh same room where men do;
I stay on campus overnight not too infrequently; I wait for my
friends at public places like restaurants/bars/cafes alone; I don't
have to try to hide being attractive here; I'm not afraid of dressing
up if I'm in teh mood; I go camping (that too, what's called 
"primitive camping") camping with female friends (no men to "protect"
us); I go for walks alone or with friends and often without male friends.

Let me see how much of this I can pull off in India. I'v enever
lived in apts. alone in India, but I have friends who tried but
ended up moving into "women's hostels". I can't imagine checking
into a motel alone in India (I can see the cheap, dirty look on the
desk clerk's face and if he'll give a room to an unaccompanied woman
or not is a different question). I can't imagine jogging on the
road or working out in a gym in India. I can't imagine going camping 
without male company in India (I don't know much about camping in
India -- this is just to make the point that some women can be out
in the open in teh US).

In general, the comparison between India and teh US made so far is
for very different kinds of lives. If you figure in all these
activities a woman takes up here into the Indian context, the level
of harassment/criminal assaults or rapes would be far more
heinous than what we experience/witness now (assuming nothing
else changes). 

And I repeat what I said: I'm aware of the problems women face
in this country and I'm as active in some local American circles that
try to act on women's issues as I'm on this network when it
comes to women's issues. BUT: In India, I've never enjoyed the freedom
to be myself that I enjoy here and I'm no newcomer. I've lived here
for over seven years now and when I go home to India, the contrast
doesn't cease to amaze me.

>oh well... when this thread came around a couple of years back, very
>similar arguments were exchanged between extreme optimists and
>extreme pessimists and I wrote the following.. nothing seems to have
>changed in the intervening years ... thank god!
>
>Rao
>[Oct 14, 1992]
>-----

["And Moses said to the people of Israel, 'And now, O Israel, ..."]

Uma Subramanian
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian