HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Maya Angelou Inaugural Poem Discrepancies
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:03:57 GMT

I note differences between what was posted in article
<00966F26.3AE00A40@vms.csd.mu.edu> by 9072falkk@vms.csd.mu.edu (Maya
Angelou's Inaugural Poem as posted to CLINTON@MARIST by James Barrett)
and in <clinton-angelouU3JK240pe@clarinet.com> by
clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI).  I note several differences in
punctuation and some minor word changes, but the
most egregious difference is that the latter says:
    "The River sang and sings on. There is a true yearning to
    respond to the singing River and the wise Rock. So say the
    Asian, the Hispanic, the Jew, the preacher.  They all hear the
    speaking of the Tree.  They hear the first and last of every
    Tree speak to humankind today"
while the former gives a much longer list:
    "The River sings and sings on.  There is a true yearning to
    respond to the singing River and the wise Rock.  So say the
    Asian, the Hispanic, the Jew, the African and Native American,
    the Sioux, the Catholic, the Muslim, the French, the Greek, the
    Irish, the Rabbi, the Priest, the Sheikh, the Gay, the
    Straight, the Preacher, the privileged, the homeless, the
    Teacher.  They hear.  They all hear the speaking of the Tree"

The former also says, "You, the Turk, the Arab, the Swede, the German,
the Eskimo, the Scot. You, the Ashanti, the Yoruba, the Crow, bought,
sold, stolen," where the latter says only, "You, the Turk, the Swede,
the German, the Scot ...  You the Ashanti, the Yoruba, the Kru, bought
Sold, stolen, arriving on a nightmare Praying for a dream."

So which is correct?

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (Debil)
Subject: Re: New ideas on SF -or- Confessions of an pulp reader
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 03:45:09 GMT



[SubG asserts we had an argument which, in fact, never occured between us.]

   SubG,
  
     it is now clear that it makes little difference if you are really
utterly confused or just pretend you are.

 - Debil

--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Debil, on the shores of Bohemia.
################################
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett)
Subject: Re: Why I signed off this list
Organization: University of Rochester
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:33:50 GMT

In article <7620064@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>In rec.arts.books, garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett) writes:
>
>> I find it sad that the only responses to a persons saying that he
>> had been driven out of a supposedly open news group because of the
>> conditions there are playful and don't address the problem.  
>> 
>> I agree sadly that rec.arts.books is not open to all interested in books,
>> just those interested in books who have developed hair trigger defense
>> mechanisms for dealing on the net.
>
>Is this not merely a reality to be dealt with?
>
>Yes, the net is a harsh place.  Perhaps there is some good to
>be gained in learning to absorb criticism constructively.
>
>doug

I'm not referring to criticism, I'm referring
to rude attacks (e.g. see the increasingly hostile postings against
me in the SF thread currently going on culminating with a posting
that basically says its worthless to talk to me because I must be closed
minded for having a pre-conceived believe that a particular book was
science fiction and finally ending with an attack on me AFTER I had
already excused myself from the thread).  I have neither the need
nor the inclination to deal with such rude acts constructively.

 -Bill

-- 
Bill Garrett			ARPA: garrett@cs.rochester.edu
University of Rochester		UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!garrett
Rochester  NY  14627		VOX:  (716) 275-5605
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich)
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:42:49 GMT

In article <1jl927$31u@agate.berkeley.edu>, muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
> In article <C16qqE.3wp@cs.columbia.edu> igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich) writes:
> >plans to make Russia a great country, he did not purposely kill millions of
> >people just to make others fear. I would agree that people who died building
> 
> Well, I think you are wrong here, since this was a usual habbit those times.
> What was "stereleckaja kazn'"?

Streletskaya kazn' was an execution of a division of "strel'tsy" who were
with tsritsa Sofia together in a plot against Peter. They were executed all
together just as they were together in a plot for a coup. 

> 
> >you will see that it is about 25%-30% of the population. Can you find anything 
> >similar for Peter I or Groznyi?
> 
> Since you seems to not know numbers of Peter and Grozny times, I would humbly
> disagree with you.
> 
Do  _you_ know those numbers? I am saying, can you find anything similar to 
25%-30% of the population being executed in those times? I am pretty sure
the numbers were lower, even though I don't know those numbers. Of course,
such a statement is not a formal argument, but it is my belief.


> But, of course, comparing Stalin with even 17-th century makes no more sense
> than comparing, say attitude to minorities today and 100 years ago. Ancestors
> were not such a villains, just times were different.
> 

I agree here. People seem to becomes less and less humane as time passes...

> Yury M.
> 

-Igor P.
From: warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Read 'em and weep: Depressing novels (was books be don't censor)
Date: 28 Jan 93 18:02:40 GMT
	<27JAN199313210207@rigel.tamu.edu>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu's message of 27 Jan 93 19:21:00 GMT

The SubG comments:
> This sounds like a thread to me.

And of course it was just a month or two ago.  T. Hardy seemed to make
just about everyone's day.

Funny how this "new" thread was sparked by comments on _Jude The Obscure_.
Perhaps this is another law of USENET: any mention of JTO leads to a
thread on depressing books and vice versa.
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Dustjackets
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 07:15:44 GMT

In article <C16D8E.5rI@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> patk@sr.hp.com (Patrick Kearney) writes:
>You could be right. However, French publishing practices are rather
>different to the USA and England. For example, it is quite common for
>a major publisher like Gallimard to issue limited editions of a new book
>on different paper, specifically for the collector. And smaller publish-
>ers, particularly those leaning toward the more avant-garde types of
>literature, would consider limited editions, sometimes of breath-taking
>complexity, almost de rigeur. I can't imagine any US or English publishers
>going in for this sort of thing on anything like the same scale, although
>it is true that Grove Press did some limited printings of their Samuel
>Beckett titles. Catering to the collector in this way is certainly a
>French tradition.

	Limited edition publishing is quite common in the United States.  
Large publishers do it (for instance, Bantam did a boxed, signed 
_Difference Engine_, and I'm sure that *all* S. King's stuff comes out
in some expensive form), and small publishers do still more.  Black 
Sparrow Books, publisher of what you might call limited trade editions
of contemporary literature, used to (and I assume still does) cover most
of the cost of printing an edition through the sales of the limited runs--
leatherbound, lettered A-Z, inscription and drawing by the author blah blah.

	Such publishing has always struck me as a fairly cold-blooded 
attempt to create artificial rarities in order to milk collectors and
libraries that wish to create complete or near-complete collections of a
particular author or field, period, etc.  As opposed to the genuine rarity
of, say, a first printing Shakespeare & Co. _Ulysses_.

	As to Joyce--

	When Viking published a little, recently-discovered Joyce manuscript 
under the name _Giacamo Joyce_ in the late 60s (*very* few words, and the 
limited trade edition in its little box cost the then princely sum of $15, 
I believe), I was working at Cody's Books in Berkeley, and Fred Cody said 
to me that the one thing that didn't disgust him about the book was that Joyce 
collectors would be forced to buy it, despite what he considered its obviously
negligible importance.  

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gara@cs.toronto.edu (Gara Pruesse)
Subject: Re: Ancient History Novels
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:14:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.202941.24820@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>gary g link writes:
>
>	"Reindeer Moon" springs to mind as a reasonable anthro-novel...far
>	better than the Jean Auel anthro-porn.
>
>
>I second the recommendation for _RM_ and also her second book _Animal
>Wife_.
>

WHOSE second book?

Would posters PLEASE make a point of including author and title in
follow-up postings?  

Not all of us read all of the articles all of the time.
(Or remember, if we did.)

-gara

who has been known to hit the 'c' key when you all get out of hand
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: For Thine is the kingdom
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:44:12 GMT

In article <C1E8yr.8Do@panix.com>, mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
|> 
|> kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:
|>  
|> > Of course, that line _is_ uttered in the Catholic Mass at the end of the 
|> > Lord's Prayer, but it's the priest who says it.
|> 
|> This was certainly not true when the Mass was in Latin.  I don't remember
|> it being true of the English Mass, either -- though I must confess to 
|> having lost interest when it became understandable.
 
 All right, I tripped up a bit here. It isn't said at the end of the Lord's 
Prayer. But I could have sworn that _somewhere_ in the Catholic Mass that I
remember going to (not so long ago that it was in Latin), there occurs the 
line: "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever".
Now, I know that r.a.b is just swarming with ex-, lapsed and recovered 
Catholics, but is there anyone in here who's actually been to a Mass lately
who could tell me that I wasn't hallucinating that part, and where exactly
it occurs? 
 
 Then again, perhaps they did things differently in St. Mary's parish of 
Coventry, CT... we always were rather isolated out there.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| "And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start 
     \_|      To mold a new reality -- closer to the heart."
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Ron Hogan on Criticism
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:19:52 GMT

Ron, I was so impressed with almost everything you said in your long
post on film that I was going to cede the ground to you and your legions,
but one thing you said has been troubling me *greatly* all day.

Can you really mean what you say when you say something to the effect that
it's hard for you to imagine someone being a good film critic who has not
been moved by the performances of Marilyn or Marlene?  I assume you're a 
teacher.  Do you judge your students' work according to the emotive responses
your students muster toward film?  Does the quality of your students' insights
depend on their ability to be moved by certain performances?

Let's consider Shakespeare, someone I happen to think of as a truly great
artist.  The humanist tradition would want to insist that a person probably
can't be a good critic who hasn't been moved by Shakespeare, but does
experiencing an emotional response to a play by Shakespeare truly prepare one
for an encounter with *Endgame*?  Would having had such a response truly make
one a better *reader* of *Endgame*?  I think not, with a vengeance not.

I realize that film studies is plagued by a legion of barbarians at the gate,
by a crowd comprised of a large proportion of dilettantes and not a few able
amateurs.  So I have to wonder how much the statement you made was primarily
prompted by the desire to protect your discipline.  I suppose if you see the
very essence of what films are about as something embodied in the work of
Monroe and Dietrich, then your assertion makes some sense, though the
unanimity of aesthetic response required by your position would still trouble
me.  I'd really like to know, though, how the quality of having been moved
by the performances of Monroe and Dietrich would enable one to write tellingly
of *Slacker*, or even *The Crying Game*.

Best,
michael mcdonald
From: pml3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Paul Michael Lewis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Computer writes a book?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:24 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>But music has only a dozen words in its vocabulary (notes of the scale) and
>the English language has tens of thousands.  I cannot believe that computer
>science is capable of replicating the intricate constructions of language.
>
>Maybe it could do e e cummings, but a novel...  :Q)

Constructing a single complex and coherent sentence for a computer is
difficult enough.  Creating two sentences which are coherent in sequence is
infinitely more difficult.

A computer can have no concept of plot, characterization and theme.

Keeping that in mind, just imagine how absurd a computer learning an
author's style is.

-- 

+-| Paul Lewis | People's Temple, Jonestown: WLVR 91.3fm    Mon. 11pm-1am |-+
|  'I'd love to turn you on.'                  -The Beatles   |             |
|  'You should be with us, feeling like we do  -Perry Farrell |     1       |
|   like you love to, but never will again.'                  |    2 3      |
|  'The struggle between God and man breaks    -Kazantzakis   |             |
|   out in everyone.'                                         | Renaissance |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Gary Link)
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:21:07 GMT


*sigh*

My veracity has been impugned (but in the nicest way) by Chris.

I mentioned that I had gotten _Strange Wine_ out to check the reference
to the Dinosaur article.

So, Chris, you owe me a retraction, or some other nifty piece of
surgical hardware..<humour alert>,

Page 13 et. seq of my copy of _Strange Wine_ ISBN0-446-30659-2

I will forego the chastisement with the whip of my choice, this time,
since I spelled your name incorrectly (my apologies).

'Dinosaurs' also appears in _The Harlan Ellison Hornbook_.

Susanna
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: New ideas on SF -or- Confessions of an pulp reader
Date: 21 Jan 1993 17:25 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

David Stein writes...

>Dani Zweig writes:
>>You're fighting a battle you can't win.  This is the person who argued
>>that "Neuromancer" isn't a counter-example because "Neuromancer" isn't
>>science fiction.  Actually, 'argued' is the wrong word to use.  
>  I know, but I decided to ignore him on that one.

+-------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
Excellent rhetorical stance:  ignore what you do not wish to see.
+-------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+

>>The relevant verb is 'redefined' which is what happens to both the object
>>of the discussion and the claim being contested, every time someone
>>tries to pin him down.  I suppose he finds it entertaining.
>  SubG shut up when I challenged him to substantiate his claim.
>  Which is fine with me.  I don't like to pick on kids.
> - Debil

+------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------------+
And now acccuse me of what you just confessed to above.

Look, mate, you have provided zero discussion on science fiction that I can
recall.  Everytime I respond to the "I can't believe that you don't think
book X is science fiction;  it has a spaceship in it" with an explaination
of my stance I in turn get "I can't believe that you don't think book X is
science fiction..." and an accusation that I'm avoiding the issue because
I won't delieve a precious definition of science fiction.







-SubGenius



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: <None>
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 04:20:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.014418.11902@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser") writes:
>00hfstahlke@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>>He has other examples, that I do not have at hand (and how's that for a
>>non-restrictive with relative-that?), that show subtle differences in meaning

>That usage of "that" is distinctly jarring for me; it seems to demand a
>"which."  Does Bolinger give any examples of nonrestrictive relative "that"?

Various English Bibles over the centuries have given "Our Father, 
that/which/who art in heaven..."  Seems to me that, given the direct
form of address, the "that" is non-restrictive; why bother to 
distinguish from all other fathers?

Anyway, it's not very common anymore; one hears a non-restrictive 
"that" in the spoken dialect, but rarely sees it written.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken)
Subject: Re: The WORST novel ever written? (OVERRATED?)
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:22:45 GMT

wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>I had a similar reaction to the teen age boy in King's _The Stand_.
>He was such a whiny bastard that I had trouble reading the parts
>where he figured prominently.

I had a similar reaction to Lee, the younger brother character in
_Sometimes a Great Notion_.  Even though I suspect he was
autobiographical, I kept hoping that the older brother character Hank
would kill him.  BTW, I still thought _SaGN_ was a wonderful novel;
it's the book Michener would produce about Oregon if he could actually
write.
-- 
Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
Look if you like, but you will have to leap.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.nordic
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Subject: A way to measure time
Summary: Anthology of contemporary Finnish literature
Keywords: Tove Jansson
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:02:06 GMT

The Finnish Literature Society (Suomalaisen kirjallisuuden seura) has
published an anthology of "contemporary Finnish literature" to mark the
75th Anniversary of Finnish Independence.  This is really a good collection,
certainly the most complete book of its kind to have appeared in English.
I highly recommend it to anyone interested in Finnish literature.  I guess
it's a sign of how small Finland is, but looking through the contents, I ran
accross many friends and acquaintances.  I'm not sure how widely the book
has been distributed, so you might have trouble finding it.  The title
is _A way to measure time_, ISBN 951-717-695-3, 435 pp. published in 1992.

The book includes works by 86 authors, both poetry and prose, so a fair 
summary is impossible.  Suffice it to say that all the important post-war
writers in Finland are included, Finnish and Swedish speaking, everyone 
from Mika Waltari, Tove Jansson, and Paavo Haavikko to Pentti Saarikoski,
Jorn Donner and my friend Daniel Katz (his short story "A Little Night Music"
is included).  I was also happy to see two stories ("Birds" and "Eat this
message"), by Thomas Wulff, but I won't even try listing other young writers! 

Incidentally, did anyone notice the article on Tove Jansson in The New York
Review of Books on 17 December, 1992?  Alison Lurie pulls off a pretty good
analysis of the Moomintroll books in such a short a piece.  Tove Jansson lives
in a tower-like loft just two blocks from my apartment.  I've noticed a
lot of interest in Jansson and the Moonintrolls recently.  The Sunday Times
came to interview her in Finland a couple of months ago.  The reporter stopped
off at Cafe Kafka, but failed to mention that, despite the promising name,
`Kafka' is a nondescript book and coffee shop in the lobby of the Swedish
Theatre.  They serve coffee from a thermos bottle!  Japanese TV even made
an animated film series of her children's books last year.  All the 
characters look so Japanese!

-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Novels about writers
Date: 24 Jan 1993 23:05 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Amy Charles writes...

>Anybody read any good books w/writer as protagonist lately?
>Amy Charles

+-----------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
Well, there's the well-known Burgess _Enderby_ series.  Enderby the character
is a poet.  In the introdution to the post-mortem _Enderby's Dark Lady
or No End to Enderby_, Burgess comments:

		His poems are, inevitably, written by myself, but
		only myself in disguise as Enderby.  A reviewer
		in _Punch_ said, of the first novel or half-novel,
		`It would be helpful if Mr Burgess could indicate
		somewhere whether these poems are meant to be good
		or bad,' a fine instance of critical paralysis.

..and I suppose any novel that paralyses the critics (at least in the
literal Greek sense) is good enough for me.









Yours etc.,



SubGenius