From: fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter)
Newsgroups: soc.singles
Subject: Re: Peeking through the curtain
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:15:47 GMT
Organization: Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter) writes:
>>barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>>>	Your archetypal affair seems to be some sleazy back door man who
>>>spots a confused, unhappy wife and uses her confusion to get into her
>>>pants.
>>
>>I never said this, and my examples had a woman being the other person.
>
>	What you have said is that you see all affairs as gratuitous sex.

I never said that either. 

>You seem, in general, hungry for moral absolutes, hard and fast rules. But
>life doesn't work by such rules, it works more by heuristics, rules of thumb.

Heh. Try this for a heuristic then - don't fuck around with a married person
with kids, when the other partner doesn't know and OK it. Yes, I know, you
don't want anything limiting from getting that itch between your balls
scratched... and so you'll ignore this heuristic.

>Affairs happen sometimes out of love and affection, too.

I never said they didn't. I said I didn't know what love was. Why don't you
try reading what I write ?

>While it's more the exception than the rule, affairs are
>also sometimes beneficial.

Heh. None of the innocent bystanders that I know who were affected by a
cheating extra-marital affair considered it beneficial. Of course, the two
people involved in the cheating extra-maritial affair considered it beneficial
(otherwise why be screwing around with each other ?)

>>If the relationship is *not* open, then it is *not* guesswork as to the 
>>effect on the lover's spouse (and kids) when they find out. If the
>>spouse (and kids) don't find out, there still is some effect because
>>the cheating spouse won't be able to spend as much time with them (because
>>she/he will have to spend some time with this third party).
>
>	Pure Hollywood, Fred: the guilty always get punished, the truth
>always comes out, every dog has his day, et silly cetera.

Maybe if you pulled your head out of your butt you'd have an easier time
reading what I write. What I wrote was :

	if the spouse (and kids) don't find out

How do you get "guilty always get punished, [...]" out of that ? If anything,
it's the innocent parties that get punished.

>	And even where affairs are a real no-no, people vary in how
>seriously they take it. Some take confession of a past affair in stride,
>though they'd freak out about a current affair; some would shrug off a
>partner's one-night-stand, but demand divorce over an ongoing affair; and
>some are so extreme that just knowing their spouse was _interested_ in
>someone else would be the same as if they were lovers.

This is why communication is important; otherwise you just don't know.

>>>>I once lived (platonic
>>>>room-mates) with a woman who seemed to only date married men. She never
>>>>knew they were married when she first met them, but she eventually figured
>>>>it out.
>>
>>She continued fooling around with them after she found out they were married.
>
>	OK, so we agree there was no moral taint on her until she
>discovered they were married, right?

Ok.

>But does that guilty knowledge affect the _outcome_ of these events, the pain?
>It does not. The wife gets hurt because her husband had an affair, and she
>found out. Had your roommate broken things off as soon as she found out the
>guy was married, would that have lessened the wife's pain? Hell, no.

There would have been no pain (over the affair with Judy) if Judy hadn't
maliciously decided to tell her about it.

>	Another example: let's imagine I become friends with a married
>woman. As time goes on we realize we're falling for one another, but we
>are _not_ sleeping together - she believes in keeping her promises. Next
>thing you know she and I decide we want to become a couple. She tells her
>husband she wants a divorce, and moves in with me.
>
>	Notice that, despite the fact that no one cheated, the results are
>the same as if we had

Bullshit. The results do *not* have to be the same. In this case there was no
lying, no dishonesty. Your friend's kids might still respect her. The
husband can probably handle (her falling out of love with him) much better
than he'd handle (her screwing around with you).

BTW, my above comments come from the couple of marriages that I've seen come
apart without a third party in there helping. Much less messy and painful.

Kenn, do these hypothetical situations you keep on dreaming up to support
your vacuous arguments have any basis in real life, or do you
make them up as you go because you feel you need to justify your beliefs ?

My feelings on this matter were formed by observing the results, the always
painful results, of this behaviour when it was discovered. I've seen nothing
written by you to indicate that your feelings on this matter are anything
but rationalizations to allow you to consciencelessly screw with any woman
you're interested in that is interested back, no matter what the potential
harm to others.

>>>if someone's spouse is cheating on them, do you think it's
>>>better if they know, or are in the dark?
>>
>>I believe in honesty and in people knowing the truth about matters that
>>pertain to them.
>
>	If a close friend of yours were cheating on their spouse, and the
>spouse was someone you barely knew, would you inform on your friend?

I try an avoid becoming friends with untrustworthy people. Dishonesty bugs
the shit out me. If I had the bad judgement to befriend such a bozo I would
try and convince them to change. Or they'd stop being my friend. Realize that
my definition of 'friend' is probably different than yours.

BTW, the above isn't hypothetical. I have stopped being friends with
untrustworthy people. Admittedly, only after their untrustworthiness was
driven home by them being dishonest with me, and refusing to change.

>>But the way Judy picked to let the wife know about
>>the affair was seemily calculated to cause as much pain as possible.
>
>	When you find a tactful and diplomatic way to gratuitously inform
>someone their spouse is cheating on 'em, let me know.

Gee, if there isn't a nice way of telling them, maybe you could take that
as a sign that you shouldn't be doing it ? Nah, that's too obvious.

	fred
-- 
Disclaimer: everything I post is my *personal* opinion and does not represent
or reflect the opinion of the company which employs me.
Newsgroups: soc.singles