HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:17:43 GMT

John McCarthy writes:

	I was surprised to read about Britain:

		owning weapons has been anything but the prerogative 
		of the Armed Forces.  The sole exception has always 
		been hunting weapons. 
 
 							Fido

	As usual Cramer has the detailed facts.  I was, and still am, 
	willing to bet Francis $50 that he was mistaken purely on the 
	basis of my reading of British detective stories.  No gentleman 
	was ever bothered about owning a weapon in such a story.

I'm not quite sure I understand the terms of John's wager, so I'll decline
-- although the $50 would come in handy. Unlike Clayton Cramer and, say,
Mike Godwin, for the purposes of rec.arts.books I do not live in a factual 
world. My world is perceived.  Opinionated. I have made the point before,
and Mike has come to understood this. There is nothing unique in my position. 
It is a trick I may have picked up from the Oxford Union, where sides to a
debate are more or less decided by the President, not the persons who are
to be involved in the debate. It does seem to be a uniquely British modus,
and can also be seen in the way the Criminal Justice system works in the
UK. Rumpole rarely has a passionate belief in the innocence of his clients.
What he has is something more important: a belief in the right of the
accused, however lowly, to a good defence.

							Fido
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Summary: Clatonism
Keywords: Greeks race Cramer foolishness
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:17:38 GMT

In article <11888@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>
>How many nonwhite ancient Greeks were there, by the way?  Greeks are
>a people of indisputably white race. 
 
	When was the last time you saw Herodotos in the flesh, eh,
Clayton?  Did he seem "indisputably white"?  There's little ethno-      
archaeological evidence as to the "color" of the ancient Hellenes.
They were probably about as "white" as similar east Mediterranean
peoples, i.e., definitely non-Germano-Scandinavian.  Or were they
mixed?  Perhaps "colored"?  Those from Asia Minor, "Asian"?  How
indisputable, whiteness? 

	Take your Afrikaaner logic elsewhere, Clayton.

>
>Maybe I'm just a narrow-minded sort, but unless a writer makes a point
>of telling me his race or gender, and that it has some significance to 
>what he is writing about (e.g., Shelby Steele's _The Content of our 
>Character_), I don't see much point to classifying the author by race 
>or gender.

	So the fact that women and minorities make up a marginal,     
highly disproportionate fraction of the U.S. Congress is irrelevant?
You miss the intention of the original posters.  They were attempting
to detect the disproportionately small numbers of minorities in the
traditional canon of so-called great literature.  Do you get the point?
Or have non-whites simply not produced any "great works" worthy of the
canon?

>-- 
>Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
>Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
>prohibition won't work.

	Neither does intelligence prohibition.

Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney

"The small man returns eternally!"
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15331 rec.humor:27498 alt.folklore.urban:22582
From: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us (S. Mudgett aka little gator)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban
Organization: gators 'r us
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
	<1992Aug25.194259.853@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug27.145103.14601@ncmicro.lonestar.org>
	<1992Aug29.173357.15216@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<30AUG199215585426@venus.tamu.edu>
Reply-To: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.03 Rev. Apr 14 1992
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:59:46 -0500


>>>} >>>>>>>IF THIS DOESN'T STOP, IM GOING TO START THE WORST CASCADE EVER.
>>>} >>>>>>WHILE EATING THIS SLOP, I SEWED THE FIRST BROCADE BEAVER.
>>>} >>>>>BILE FITTING RIG STOP, LIE SPEWED THIRST LIVER !!!!
>>>} >>>>IF YOU MUST CONTRIBUTE, AT LEAST DELIVER...
>>>} >>>WHO MAY I ATTRIBUTE TO THIS BEASTLY SLIVER?
>>>} >>TO SPAY A LUTE IN A GREASY RIVER
>>>} >DAMN CASCADERS THINK YOU'RE SO CLEVER
>>>} I WILL NOT CASCADE; NOPE, NO, NEVER
>>>WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, ON A TRAIN?
>>WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, IN THE RAIN?
>R2-D2 ON THE BRAIN?
LOST TWO-FIFTY DOWN THE DRAIN.
-- 
-- little gator aka s. mudgett     email: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us
-- friend of a gator is a friend of mine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: daggs@l42bb.jsc.nasa.gov (Clark)
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian vs Horatio Hornblower...
Organization: nasa-jsc
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:19:22 GMT

In article <10460@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
writes:

>   Trouble is, I've read all those :-( and need some new ones (the ones
suggested
>by Francis Muir are new to me, and I'll try them.  They sound good).
>
>   Also, if I may presume, let me define what I mean by "sea story".  I mean a
story
>which deals, at least in part, with boats/ships and the water *and* the author
knows
>what he/she is talking about.  Not the Tom Clancy style of giving everything a
parts
>number when it is mentioned, but written in such a manner as to assure the
knowledgeable
>reader that the author also is knowledgeable.  Whether the story deals with
sailing
>ships, submarines, steamships, tugboats, rafts, kayaks, or innertubes is
immaterial :-) 
>
>   To wind this up, what I would *really* like to find is some fiction or
non-fiction
>about sailing in the Cape Horn area.  The Dana book has a good section on it,
as does
>the Slocum book.  In fact, even Mitchner, in "Hawaii" has a good section on
it.  But
>I want more! More!
>
>Peace from hurricane-ravaged Florida,
>
>John
>
>    

Have you read any of James Fennimore Cooper's "Sea Tails" ? There is a
brand new printing by "The Library of America". 

Clark J. Daggs
1864 El Mar Ln.
Seabrook, Texas 77586
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: A Biog of Captain James Cook
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:16:25 GMT

I'm currently reading Richard Hughes' _The Fatal Shore_, and the 
sections about James Cook are quite interesting.  Can anyone recommend
a good biography of him?


Thanks in advance,

Ralph Marrone
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: Titles for Tom Maddox Biography Needed
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 03:40:41 GMT

In article <9208271658.AA03359@milton.u.washington.edu> doland@mammoth.com (Doug Doland) writes:
>
>
>Can anyone help me name my Tom Maddox biography? 

Why yes, I do believe I can help you. 

Per Fido, how about _Tom Maddox: A Biography_? 

And what are they going to call your biography, Doug?  


--Barbara
>


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Anybody read these trash books?
Reply-To: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 05:25:32 GMT


  Lem started publishing soon after the WW2, but English translations
  did not appear till the early 70's.  This seems to cause confusion.
  In particular, _Eden_ was published in 1959, while in English it
  became available only in 1989.

  This might be of help on the dates of publication:  

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 24 Jan 89 18:19:28 PST (Tuesday)
Subject: Author Lists: Stanislaw Lem
From: jwenn@world.std.com (John Wenn)
To: SF-LOVERS%rutgers:EDU
Edited: 14-May-90

Lem is probably the best SF writer not writing in english (although good
cases could be made for Borges, Calvino or Strugatsky).  Here are his
books that have been translated into english, plus an unconfirmed listing
of his books that have not been translated yet (take this later list with
a large grain of salt).

Lem has written a broad range of works, from disturbingly serious
(Solaris) to slapstick (Tales of Pirx the Pilot).  He's used some odd
forms (reviews of non-existent books).  He has serious criticisms of
western SF, saying it's too often used for action/adventure instead of
serious imaginative works.  In a Lem books, aliens are REALLY alien
(incomprehensible).

[C] == Story Collection.
[xxx:yyy] == xxx = Year it was written; yyy = Year it was translated.
[= ...] == Also known by this other title.

Lem, Stanislaw	(Poland, 9/12/1921- )

The Chain of Chance (1975:1975)
The Cosmic Carnival (:1981) [C]
The Cyberiad (1965:1974) [C]
Eden (1959:1989)
Fiasco (1986:1987)
The Futurological Congress (1971:1974)
His Master's Voice (1968:1984)
Imaginary Magnitude (1981:1984)
The Investigation (1959:1974)
The Invincible (1964:1973)
Memoirs found in a Bathtub (1961:1973) [C]
Memoirs of a Space Traveler (:1982) [C]
More Tales of Pirx the Pilot (:1982) [C]
Mortal Engines (1964:1977) [C] [= Fairytales for Robots] [= Robotic Fables]
One Human Minute (:1986) [C]
A Perfect Vacuum (1971:1979) [C]
Return from the Stars (1961:1980)
Solaris (1961:1970)
The Star Diaries (1957:1976) [C]
Tales of Pirx the Pilot (1968:1979) [C]

Non-Genre Fiction
Hospital of the Transfiguration (1982:1988)

Nonfiction
Microworlds: Writings on Science Fiction (:1985)

Untranslated Works
The Astronauts (1951:)
Book of Robots (1961:) [C]
The Chase (1965:) [C]
High Castle (1966:) [Autobiography]
Insomnia (1971:) [C]
Invasion from Aldebran (1959:) [C]
Lunar Night (1963:) [C]
The Magellan Nebula (1955:)
Philosophy of Chance (1968:) [nonfiction]
Save the Cosmos (1966:) [C]
Science Fiction and Futurology (1971:) [nonfiction]
Sesame (1955:) [C]
Stories (1969:) [C]
Summa Technologiae (1964:) [nonfiction]
Time Saved (1955:) [nonfiction]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Turkel)
Subject: Aesthetics reading list, take two
Originator: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:12:03 GMT


C'mon people :)

I am (still) looking for reading recommendations for Aesthetics.  So
far I have recevied five recommendations from 3 serious respondents and
one humourous reply.  For people who can provide me with a list of
over a thousand "canonical" works, you'd think that there would be a 
few more recommendations.

Bill
turkel@unixg.ubc.ca

PS pleez x-cyooz speling as i tiped this into a turminle not n editr
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british
From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:26:42 GMT

|>In article <1992Sep2.231256.20099@news.Hawaii.Edu> 
|>gerard@caliban.soest.hawaii.edu (Gerard Fryer) writes:
|>                                  By their own admission Time and Newsweek
|>   are aimed at about ninth grade (i.e., third form).

In article <NICKH.92Sep3104858@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU>, 
nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes in soc.culture.britain:
|>                                    The Economist is genuinely better
|>(though still terribly simplistic); there are very few news magazines
|>aimed at the genuinely educated.
|>
|>In fact, are there any?

Arguably "Der Spiegel", but not being in English probably puts him out of
the competition. One could make a case for "TransAtlantik", another German
magazine, but I wonder whether it would fit into the "news magazine" 
cathegory.

I, personally, like the Economist, since it doesn't make any effort to be
really "glossy" and "au courant". However, for my taste the articles tend
to be a bit on the short side. They could do more in depth coverage.

|>Nick

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
-F35- ZEUS DESY/Freiburg  Bitnet:   POSER@DESYVAX
bldg.1b-235, Notkestr.85  Hepnet:   VXDESY::POSER (13313::Poser)
   D-2000 Hamburg 52      Tel.: -49-40-8998-2004
From: chrisc@sun.pcl.ac.uk (Chris Chamberlain)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Sea Stories
Keywords: Ramage, Dudley Pope
Date: 28 Aug 92 10:17:38 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic of Central London

In article <1992Aug27.172119.18241@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>I remember hearing that Forester had actually designated his
>"successor", and although I'm not sure which one, it was either Dudley
>Pope or Alexander Kent. Anyone else ever hear this?
>
>Keith
>  
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Keith Morgan		      | Criticism is prejudice made plausible.
>kamorgan@athena.mit.edu       |                          H.L. Mencken
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think this must have been made up by the people who write the blurb on the
book covers as neither of the above are particurly good. If it was any of
them it must have been Alexander Kent as I don't think Dudley Pope had started
the Ramage books while Forester was still alive.

Chris.
From: dwp@cci632.cci.com (Dana Paxson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Progress (Was : Re: The Literary Canon)
Summary: seconding Terrance Heath
Keywords: racism, canon
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:01:38 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY

In article <1992Sep3.155007.29485@athena.cs.uga.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
>	WE ARE NOT YET IN THE PROMISED LAND. WE ARE STILL IN THE
>WILDERNESS.
>

I would like to second Terrance Heath on this one.  As I see it,
we are still in the wilderness when it comes to skin color in the
USA.  For me, the experiences of listening and witnessing are so
telling:

1)  In 1960, double-dating with an interracial couple (he white, she
    black), and having the Detroit police pull her over and haul her
    off to the lockup because they decided she was soliciting (she
    had been driving).  The cops roughed him up that night when he
    went to the rest room at the precinct station.  They left me and
    my date alone.  Guess why.

2)  In 1992, getting a ride from a garage mechanic, and mentioning
    the killing in Sarajevo.  His rejoinder:  "The real war is right
    here.  I've been to 23 funerals this year, of kids killed on the
    streets in town, kids I knew."  We live in Rochester, New York.
    He is a middle-aged black man.

3)  In 1989, seeing the deep marks on my son's wrists from the 
    handcuffs, after he had been arrested for a minor charge.  He
    had been thrown, handcuffed, face down in a paddy wagon.  My son
    is multiracial, and looks somewhat Hispanic.

There are more things I could add, but I don't belabor if I can help
it.  

It helps to read.  Until I read _Autobiography of Malcolm X_, _Manchild 
in the Promised Land_, _Black Rage_, and some others, I had no clues 
about any of this.  And if I hadn't admitted my ignorance to a black
friend, and asked for what to read, I might still be clueless.  Those 
books are in my canon.

Spike Lee movies help.  He says it.  (Not just he -- others are there 
saying it now too.)

I listen to the music.  It tells.

And I have to work daily to keep in touch with the awfulness of it. 
Otherwise I end up keeping more in touch with my fear and resentment
which so easily wall me off from the truth, and nurture racism.

Dana Paxson
Network Applications Systems Group
Northern Telecom
97 Humboldt Street
Rochester, New York  14609

dwp@cci.com

Disclaimer:  The opinions expressed above are mine personally,
	     and do not necessarily reflect the views of my 
	     employer.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Titles for Tom Maddox Biography Needed
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:36:22 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: doland@mammoth.com (Doug Doland)

In article <9208271658.AA03359@milton.u.washington.edu>, doland@mammoth (Doug Doland) writes:
>Can anyone help me name my Tom Maddox biography?

MINDLESS PLEASURES
THE SECRET LIFE OF THOMAS PYNCHON
BEEN WRONG SO LONG IT LOOKS RIGHT TO ME
THOMAS MADDOX: A SCREENFUL OF INFORMATION
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Fowles' `The Collector'
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:28:55 GMT


asim@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Asim Rehman Khan) writes:
 
> Recently, I read an interesting book and thought of sharing my
> impressions of it.  It was John Fowles' "The Collector" and is
> about a man who keeps a woman as his captive, just as he used
> to collect butterflies in his childhood. I don't want to make
> this a spoiler so let's get away from the plot.  The most
> interesting aspect of the book was its unique style of narration.
> Fist, we are given the captor's perspective in the first person
> and then his captive's. The development of their relationship from
> two angles enriches the grotesquity of the story.
 
> I would love to hear other comments on this work.
 
The Narration of THE COLLECTOR is interesting.  It is written in the form
of journals, and the contrast in style is done well.  What came through,
for me, was how full the young woman's life was -- although she was held
captive.  The captor, on the other hand, was single-minded in his approach
to life, although he was a free man.  I have heard that the movie was
good.
 
> Are there any other good books by Fowles?
 
I liked both THE FRENCH LIEUTENANT'S WOMAN and THE MAGUS.  He has written
several others which I have not read.  I've heard people complain that he
is a bit full of himself.  He certainly likes to ply games with the reader,
which some people enjoy, and others find bothersome.
 
Another book that uses a similar narrative technique to THE COLLECTOR is
ORDINARY PEOPLE by Judith Guest.  The narration is told first by the son,
and then by the father.  The technique gives us two different perspectives
of the events, but also underscores the coldness of the mother.
 
Mark
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.self-improve,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.comics
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: "Superman" books
Followup-To: alt.self-improve
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:27:59 GMT


Not the dragon-killing fantasy from DC...

I'm interested in references to paranormals/supermen/pick-your-word from
literature whos capabilities are not the result of genetic or cybernetic
enhancement, but result from (extensive) (re)training.  Examples would be:

character:		book:
mentats			the DUNE series
Bene Gesseret		the DUNE series
night tigers		the DESTROYER series
(forgot his name)	The Sensitive Man (short story)
Null-A supermen		Van Vogt's NULL-A trilogy
V. M. Smith		Stranger in a Strange Land
(central character)	The Great Time Machine Hoax

Suggestions for references?
--
James W. Meritt:  m23364@mwunix.mitre.org - or - jmeritt@rod.mitre.org
The opinions above are mine.  If anyone else wants to share them, fine.
They may say so if they wish. The facts "belong" to noone and simply are.
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Summary: more Political Correctness
Keywords: Greeks race Cramer foolishness
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:09:48 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <l9q3ddINNrdu@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
> (Michael Sean Rooney) wonders:
#    	When was the last time you saw Herodotos in the flesh, eh,
#    Clayton?  Did he seem "indisputably white"?  There's little ethno-      
# 
# (Clayton Cramer) rants:
# 
#  Sorry, I'll just ignore all the statutes left from the classical
#  civilization.
#  
# This is interesting. What do civil laws have to do with the
# skin color of the inhabitants? Perhaps you meant "statues"
# which is even more ludicrous. Because the statues were white
# so were the people? 

Statues show physical characteristics.  Things like lips, hair,
etc.  If they aren't clearly white Europeans, then I guess they
must have been some sort of conspiracy, whereby the Church broke
all the originals, and replaced them with European versions.

What is with liberals?  Why are they so stupid?

#  East Mediterranean peoples are definitely white, asshole.  So are
#  Asian Minor people, asshole.
# 
# Clearly the calm and precise words of someone to be taken seriously. . .

Anyone that is prepared to deny that the Greeks were white can't
be taken seriously.

#  Yup.  Irrelevant.  Whether a Congresscritter is white, black, male,
#  female, whatever, is irrelevant.  Hell, I'm no liberal, I vote for
#  what a person based on what they say, not how they look.
# 
# Why do I have trouble believing this?

For the same reason that you think the Greeks weren't white -- you
are a liberal, and therefore brain-damaged.

#                      But until very recently, the non-European
#  cultures have had little impact on our culture (outside of the
#  area of religion).
# 
# This seems to ignore many, many things. However, I am sure

Oh that's right, Beethoven and Cleopatra were black.  The light
bulb was invented in Africa, and whites are a genetic experiment
conducted by blacks.  Got anymore Afrocentrism to vomit?

# that since Mr. Cramer is a teacher, upon reflection come up
# with a few things.

Teacher?  Me?  More ignorance.

#  You know, rec.arts.books (perhaps because it's dominated by
#  liberals) has among the least polite jerks anywhere on USENET.
# 
# I for one can vouch that this is patently untrue. Mr. Cramer
# has taken far worse thumpings in a much more "uncivilized"
# manner on other newsgroups.  And avoiding the title of 
# "least polite jerk" may be difficult after calling other
# people "assholes".
# 
# Just an opinion,
# 
# Dano

No, just an asshole.  And an ignorant one at that.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books