Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Predestination Mr. Adams
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:58:37 GMT
 <adams.712440269@spssig> <1992Jul31.192158.5626@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPSS Inc.

Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) writes:


>1)  God is and always was since the beginning and before what we call time.
>2)  God created life, for what reason, I don't know.
>3)  God realized what would happen to man before it happened.  i.e.  the fall
>    from grace of Satan.  The eating of the tree.  the turnover of control of
>    this planet from Adam, to Satan, etc...
>4)  God, in his infinite wisdom, and foresight, devised a plan of salvation
>    for the race he had created.  That plan being of course his son, Jesus.
>5)  At the appropriate time, God implemented this plan. 
>6)  we have salvation through Christ.

This is all true, but in no way says that God ordains every action of every
person, or that certain persons are predestined to salvation and others to
damnation.  God's knowledge does not imply predestination.  Just because
God knew, doesn't mean he predetermined.

>Now, to fill in the holes a little.  If God recognized that a plan of
>salvation was needed, wouldn't it make sense to figure that he knew who it
>was for?  If God indeed saw the need for this plan before time, couldn't
>he arrange for the plan to work on those people?
Sure.  But knowing != predetermining!  And God knows who will eventually be
saved.  But each person comes to God of his own free will and on his own
volition.  It is by faith that we are reconciled to God.

>When Adam fell, did just he fall, or did humanity?  If humanity as a whole
>fell, then wouldn't humanity as a whole be under the control of the "god
>of this world?"  Can you seriously think that he, Satan, would let people
>think of God?  Even better, can you see Satan saying, "Sure, go ahead and
>choose Christ, I don't mind losing another soul."
No, I don't see Satan doing that.  But Satan's power is limited.  Read the
book of Job.  God removes the blessings he has given to Job, and the Devil
is given free reign.  Job doesn't fall away, even though his wife recomends
"curse God and die," and his friends claim he *must* have sinned.  Job had
a free choice.

>Being God's right hand man for a good portion of eternity, Satan has to be
>a little more powerful than you seem to be giving him credit for.  I
>submit that Satan is MUCH more powerful than you or I.  Without Christ
>that is.  Do you think that we could oppose him succesfully without the
>help of the almighty?  I don't.  Hence my statement that we would never
>choose God, because we were born into the servitude of Satan.  We were
>born into Satan's kingdom.
No.  Satan has no power over me unless I allow him that power.  Jesus told
us this!  (Mark 3:27, Luke 11:23-26).  By faith in Jesus Christ we
overpower Satan, and he can do nothing with us.

>Unless God chooses to intervene on our behalf, we have no choice other
>than to serve satan.  That doesn't mean killing dogs, and drinking blood,
>of course.  Serving satan merely means NOT serving God.  How do you
>propose we choose god if we don't have the ability?
Not true at all!  We do have the ability to chose God.  That is what we
call faith.

>Isn't it awfully pridefull to say that we can either accept or not accept
>a gift from the Almighty?  Doesn't that sort of emasculate him?  (wrong
>word maybe?  Cut off all his power is better way.)  In essence, Mr. Adams,
>you are saying that you are more powerful than the Almighty, because you
>who he created can deny what he clearly wishes everyone to have. 
>Salvation.  You may be a pretty smart guy, but I don't think I can accept
>you being more powerful than God.
Not at all.  God has given us free-will, made us free moral agents.  One of
the things we can do is reject God's salvation.  God has limited Himselef
to not interfering in that choice by pure force.  We come to God of our own
volition and trust and believe in Him.  God doesn't use force.  What could
that possibly gain for God?  A group of robots?  In what way would our God,
who desires our love, worship and companionship benefit from this
relationship?

>In the beginning of this, didn't Satan say he desired to be like God?  To
>have the power and the glory that God has?  Sounds to me that you are
>saying the same thing, only not as boldly.  Humans, whether mortal
>individuals or not, DO NOT have anything to do with the salvation process.
> God initiates it, God gives the faith to beleive in his son, and God does
>the saving.  Where does the human figure into that?  All you and I have to
>do is hear the word of God and have an open heart.  WHICH GOD PROVIDES
>THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.  How much easier could that be?

This is only partially true.  Certainly God inaugurated salvation, and God
does the saving.  But who is saved?  Those who are declared righteous and
just by faith, and faith alone.  I ask you to please read Romans 4,5 & 6.
Paul clearly lays out the concepts necessary to build the statement that
"We are justified by faith, and saved by grace."  God's sovereign decision
to grant salvation to those who have faith in Jesus Christ is undeniable.
Read John 11:25.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558