HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) The purpose of computer writing
              (2) (*COMP.COMP*) (3)
Date: 5 Nov 92 02:01:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"

Entry: 3
Date: 2 Nov 92 16:01:00 GMT
From: "Joe Chew" <agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!csa3.lbl.gov!jtchew@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-id: <2NOV199208013834@csa3.lbl.gov>
Subject: RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) The purpose of computer writing (2) (*COMP.COMP*) (3)
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-to: comp.edu.composition <compos01%ulkyvx.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.edu>

I agree.  Computers are very important in writing.  Don't be
ashamed to ask your students how to use them.

OK; OK; cheap shot.  But my God, when I realize that the kid has
more computing horsepower at school than I have at home (I'm still
slightly ahead of her at work)...  Do any of you teaching guys
ever feel like you're explaining water to a fish?

Having looked at a paper or three, I don't necessarily see a whole
lot about the differences in writing between typewriter and computer
that didn't come out in, say, Zinsser's _Writing with a Word
Processor_ about a decade ago.  Maybe there's an interesting frontier
in networked collaboration, though, by which I mean (after Jonathan
Price) genuine deep collaboration, not independent work on separate
elements which someone later unites.

This oughtta fan the flames pretty good... :)

Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Robert Service

------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: BITNET::"mbu-l@ttuvm1"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:04:00 EST
From:         "Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier" <RHODA%MUNIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      Yankee Trader Pays Up!

Many thanks to all of you who sent me ideas for using the computer lab
in my Intro to Lit course.  I can send you diskcopies of my class assignments
and exercises (i can make 5 1/4" diskettes) in WordPerfect 5.1 for you if
you will send me SNAIL MAIL addresses.  I have one hell of a time with
our poor Internet gate, and so many of you have Internet return e-mail
addresses, so I thought that the best way to thank you would be to
just send you disks full of stuff (first-year comp; intro public
speaking, intro creative writing) for you to browse and use.  Again, please
feel free to use anything, but in the interest of our long-term
collaboration, please attribute your source!

So, tell me what you want, and send snail mail address.
I can RECEIVE Internet mail but I can SEND only through Bitnet, remember!

Thanks again,

the Yankee Trader
Rhoda Carroll
Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
            <01GQY0DUJHDS934YPF@ulkyvx.bitnet>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:42:39 -0500
From:         Lili Velez <lv08+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dr. Seuss (*MBU*) (15)

Joe, there's a licult (sorry, that's short for "Literary Cultural"
theory/criticism, pronounced "_Lye_-cult") analysis of _How the Grinch
Stole Christmas_ available in the freshman lit/reader-response book
_Reading Texts_ (McCormick, Waller, Fowler, with some bits from Linda
Flower).  This analyzes the television broadcast in it's usual context
(complete with commercials).  I don't know where you might find _Green
Eggs and Ham_ stuff off-hand, but certainly _something_ ought to have
been written about the great reading of that book done on Saturday Night
Live, by Jesse Jackson....


Lili
Rhet in the Blue Linen Labcoat
From: rselfe@MTU.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: hypertextual? feedback loops
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:10:26 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>What
>I read in Dickie's post is both more sophisticated and immediate and is
>intended for a mainframe/vax or similar environment; am I right?
>
>dave roberts

Well, the example I used in the conf. could be applied to any networked
LAN.  OUrs is a Unix workstation hooked to our campus backbone.  The
information that we collect for the box that connects our Macs to that Unix
box (Sun Sparc Workstation) can download information directly to Cayman
(the company who makes the box).  It could be done with almost any software
we run with just a bit of pr0gramming.   Even individual software packages
like MS Word, PageMaker, . . . .

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dickie Selfe              rselfe@mtu.edu
Humanities Dept.          906-487-3225
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, MI   49931
From: IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET (David E. Schwalm)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: is the end of "the paper" in
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:38:04 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

From: David E. Schwalm
I was the Dave who made no sense in calling hypertexts unstructured. Of
course, everything, viewed at some level, is structured. Individual words are
structured, but a random string of them that looks like a sentence would not
be structured in any meaningful way--if one were trying to write a sentence. I
would c ertainly have trouble writing a sentence if the reader was free to
rearrange the words in any way he/she wanted. Actually, I wouldn't have much
trouble writing the sentence but I would lack confidence that the reader would
hear what I was trying to say (it's a shaky enough proposition anyway).

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:31:31 -1000
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) The purpose of computer writing (2)

On Mon, 2 Nov 1992, Composition Digest (Robert Royar, Moderator) wrote:

>>Third (I'm sure I'll receive some flak here), I don't believe the
purpose
>>of the computer writing classroom is to teach students how to use
specific
>>applications--however "universal." If students do become familiar with
>>Daedalus, Word, Word Perfect, UNIX, etc., while participating in the
>>networked activities--great.  But the primary purpose is learning to
>>write, not learning how to use specific software.

> I'm just not sure this works. If we discover that writing on a computer
is
> different from writing other ways, then logic would dictate that we must
in
> someway change our instruction to teach it effectively. I believe that
part
> of that change is the shifting of focus so that we can really integrate
> computer literacy INTO the writing process. . . . Writing is still a
craft, and
> people learning a craft must learn to be comfortable with their tools as
> they learn the craft itself (not before or after).

Are we really in disagreement?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 08:35:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Foreign languages?

Several foreign language departments at Texas are using Daedalus in their
language courses for first, second, and more advanced courses.  There are as
yet only one or two people doing so in each department, but I think that will
change soon: on Wed. I went to a meeting with the Chairs of those departments
to talk about ways for them to increase instructional computer use and to
suggest ways of training their instructors and support people.

Janet Swaffar of Germanic Languages and Phillip Markley of the Foreign
Language Studies department in the School of Ed (he's been teaching ESL in our
Daedalus classroom for several years) are co-editing a book, currently under
consideration, about language instruction and computers; I'll post more info
as it becomes available.

John Slatin, UT Austin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:54:45 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: Non-traditional students

Ann
Yes!!  I have been amazed at the response I have got to calling students.
Shock; fear; defensiveness.  But then, a realization that this is a connection,
that I won't just let them go without a fight.  That one little change, the
small amount of time it taskes, has changed my writing classes enormously for
the better.
But I keep being disappointed by my TAs, who persist in shrugging off  the
suggestion that they do that, saying that it takes hard work and organization
to make it in the academy and the students should learn that from us. Maybe it
needs more years, more distance than they have, to be able to say: a lot of that
stuff is bogus. If people survive at the gane and become faculty, we help them;
why not help them survive to get there?  The conservatism of youth always
is a shock--to one like me who was a dropout beatnik as a teenager in the 60s!
Liz
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:00:39 AST
Comments:     <04NOV92.18340347.0067.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Reply to Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

     I was happy to see "nick.carbone"'s comment on the IBM hypermedia
version of Ulysses.  I saw a video of a demonstration of it some
time ago, and it's an enactment if there ever was one of the fact
that that technology DOESN'T free the reader or disempower the
author.

>                            There was nothing in the model IBM used that allowe
> students to offer interpretations of their own or prompts of some kind that le
> them to reflect on what they read...it was all given to them by an array of
> authorities of one kind or another.
>    I imagine a young student, unsure of her reading and writing skills, might
> feel overwhelmed and intimidated by this, and I can see the kind of paper that
> might come out of this hypertext reading as being one that parroted back what
> told her, or if she wrote the paper in hypertext, even that doing the same
> thing.
Yep.  It was an authorized textbook, in spades.  And MUCH harder to
resist than a print textbook.

>                                    the  freedom of choice is really a freedom
> not of movement but ways of being restricted or lead.
       Right on.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:11:22 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      welcome Wayne

Welcome, Wayne.  I was wondering who GGBY was.  I believe we have been
waltzing for awhile here on MBU but recently have moved into choreography
of the In Living Color Fly Girls.  Ann/JCC
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:15:00 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      non trads and a losing proposition

It's interesting that remedial courses are cited as losing money.  On our
campus the single most expensive program is nursing.  Students in those
programs pay essentially the same tuition as everyone else, but many more
of the college's bucks go toward supporting the expense of that program.
Funny, no one seems to talk about that.  Ann/JCC, gadfly
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:10:15 -0400
From:         MIJOYCE@VASSAR.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

In regard to the question(s) of whether new argument forms are possible, you
may be interested in David Kolb's paper, "Socrates in the Labyrinth," which
will be a chapter in Landow's next collection from John's Hopkins Press (and
which David will give as the last talk in our Pew Lecture Series here at vassar
in the spring).  The essay asks "does hypertext offer philosophy a new mode
of writing?" and considers the question with an appropriately skeptical and
utterly provocative eye (there is also a Storyspace web which works off of the
linear essay).

Kolb can be bugged at <DKolb@abacus.bates.edu>.

Michael Joyce
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu
X-VMS-To: NET::"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu"
X-VMS-Cc: WWOOD
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:03:00 EST
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: Notes on lurking from behind the wallflowers

Wayne Butler, how heartening to read your message about your shyness at
"dealing with the beat of MBU," especially given that my own introduction
to the great big electronic world of networks and MBU occurred last
January in Florida, when you so masterfully pulled Fred out of the disaster
of a server failing and created, on the spot, a beautifully orchestrated
Interchange session that wowed me and brought Daedalus and a networked
classroom to Wellesley.  You, nervous?  There is hope for us neophytes yet.

Wini Wood
wwood@lucy.wellesley.edu
From: nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU (ellis)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: stretch and jumbo comp classes
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:09:31 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Wow, I'm really enjoying all these postings.  What I like the most
is that I am hearing how much people care about their students.  I do
believe most of us pore our hearts into teaching or we wouldn't
attempt it.

Jim, I taught at St. Bernard HS, "down in de parish, down de road"
as we said.  I took 10th graders to Canal Street (after visiting the
Confederate Museum) and it was the first trip to downtown (or is that
UPtown) NO some of them had ever made!  No lie!!  And I had fellows who
couldn't read the newspaper either -- but I'd bet they too new race
track forms  :-)...  Some of these guys read on 2nd grade level --
and these were the regular track students!

I wouldn't go back into that "mission field" for anything in this
world, but I don't regret the time I spent there and I LOVE the
people and place!  That New Orleans and area speech is music to
my ears -- I just wish I had a gift for creative writing for I
certainly have enough "material" from those days to write a book!

nancy
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 20:05:00 EST
From:         Pseudopodia can only be so long <TABRON@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Foreign languages?

I don't know if this is pertinent to the question, but I imagine that
foreign language learning will be changing (possibly drastically) with
the dissemination of Macintosh's System 7.1 software. 7.1 includes
WorldScript, in 2 system extensions (one for phonetic/alphabet languages,
one for ideogram languages) which, if installed along with a language
module, enables one to create documents and label files in any language
one wishes. It can be used to create documents that involve more than
one language at once; obviously, this capability could be utilized along
with hypertext to create many new multimedia forms of language learning
software.

On another tack:
I've just acquired the book _Hypertext: The Convergence of Contemporary
Critical Theory and Technology_, by George P. Landow. Anyone know anything
about it? (anyone out there write it?? :-) It looks very exciting.

Judith Tabron
Brandeis University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-To: mbu-l%ttuvm1@cunyvm.CUNY.edu
X-Vms-To: IN%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:36:26 -0500
From:         WENDY <WARREN@EDINBORO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: IBM's "Ulysses" version

Nick,

I have also seen the IBM hypermedia demonstration of Tennyson's Ulysses, and
was quite interested in what you said. The model that IBM is circulating
doesn't really invite interactions of the kind you mention (letting the
students offer interpretations of their own); to be honest, in the wake of
that program I was just left dazzled, and thinking "HOW NEAT!" like the
technofreak that I am. But if you think about it, students could create their
own hypermedia/multimedia "papers" like that, just like Collette Diaute talks
about in her _Language Arts_ article on Multimedia Composing. Granted, the
end result of the Ulysses is "smooth as buttah" but that is the nature of the
demo. I showed it to my students to illustrate what "could" be done with an
multimedia system through an authoring program that doesn't require knowing
a computer language. Obviously they have to start from the ground up to be
able to even create semi-intelligent programmed instruction. But they were
excited, and willing to start from that ground level. It's just kinda hard
when you don't have the equipment...but we make do.
Anyway, I think IBM had to show that type of lectur-y demo to simply introduce
their idea. Or no? What do you think? I hope my optimism isn't coloring my
critical sense here. BTW, if I've repeated some of the conversations that have
been buzzing on mbu, forgive me. I haven't read all of my mail the last week
or so.
Wendy Warren
warren@edinboro.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 23:42:24 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Clinton/Gore

I don't know about anyone else, but I have HAD IT UP TO HERE with the
election.  It's over now, and the less I hear it re-hashed, especially
here, the better.
Grouchily,
Bill
From: peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU (Irvin Peckham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:58:42 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3_uno PL11]
              92 3:18 pm

I suppose that all of you involved in the Hypertext discussion
are using hypertext strategies in your classroom.  If so
(knowing that I am turning the discussion away from the
enticements of theorizing about space, structure, new
rhetorics, ownership), I would like to know how you turn
this kind of instruction to the benefit of students who
will be asked to write discursively.  How is hypertext entering
(or how will it enter) into our students' lives?  Will it
enter differently for studnets in working class universities
verses students in upper tier universities?  Or are we engaging
in those wonderful kinds of speculations that are fun for us
but not of much use for the general run of students (but will
be for some future students)?
  What benefits then from Storyspace?  Is this exploratory
writing, writing that explores writing, self and writing?
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:49:15 -0700
From:         Doyle Burke <BURKE@MC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Internet Course (Forwarded Message) (15)

I am interested in the course, but did not find any information on a
course fee.  Is there a tuition cost?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:32:00 CDT
From:         Tamra Mabe <YKFTM@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Notes on lurking from behind the wallflowers

I too don't know the steps but like listening to the tunes.  I'm learning a grea
t deal just "lurking" or whatever.  Maybe sometime soon i'll find that I know en
ough of the steps to dance but for now I'm happy as the audience.


e
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:43:12 CST
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Lurkers or Wallflowers?
              10 Nov 1992 17:36:26 -0500 from <WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1>

I consider myself a passionate advocate of the right to lurk, but the move from
"lurker" to "wallflower" does not seem to me to be an improvement. Two of the
three dictionaries on my desk define "wallflower" as "a person who does not
participate in activities at a social event because of shyness or
unpopularity."  This is bad enough; do we really want to reduce lurking to
a social disability?  More generally, do we want to carry the emotional baggage
of high school "popularity" into this new discursive space without challenge?
But my third dictionary tells an even uglier story; it defines "wallflower" as
a "woman sitting out dances for lack of partners"--a definition I would have
taken as the root meaning of the word.  So to be a wallflower is to be a
failed object of desire, the unchosen and more crucially without choice, except
perhaps during that carefully controlled inversion, "ladies' choice."  I do not
believe that this is a social or political dynamic we want to perpetuate.  Let
there be no more walls to twine ourselves on, dangling like the strangled
heads in the sickly yellow wallpaper!  If we need a new term--and I agree that
"lurker" has equally undesirable connotations (lurker as (sexual?) predator)--
then let us choose a term that isn't quite so loaded.  Observers? Silent ones?

they never called me wallflower
      and it wasn't 'cause I danced,
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:55:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Reply to Re: Lurkers or Wallflowers?

On the use of "wallflowers":  Have I missed something--or has no one pointed
out the objection that it's a sexist term.  I don't want to be a fanatic,
here, but . . .
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:18:23 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

For me one of the key phrases in the discussion of persuasio and hypertext
is "as we know it."  When Susan Phillips investigated the persuasive
methods used by the Warm Springs Indians (her term) in "Communicative
Competence and Participant Structures," _Functions of Language in the
Classroom_, she found organizational patterns that would drive a
devotee of Aristotle up the wall, but which would fit into a completely
open hypertext slick as a whistle.  Maybe hypertext will be the driver
to other strategies of persuasion which, though not "as we know them."
will still be effective. Ron Shook
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU