From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Guns
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 01:08:54 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
NNTP-Posting-Host: maine.ce.utk.edu
Summary: point/counterpoint

In article <1992Sep25.204441.13543@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:

>In article <PA146008.2.717440083@utkvm1.utk.edu>, PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Ve writes...
>>In article <1992Sep25.015533.23286@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:
>> 
>>>>I seem to recall people considered as liberals by most of us have wanted to
>>>>ban pornography because it's demeaning to women....
>>>
>>>Good comeback. I wasn't thinking of the political (puke, gag) correctness
>>>movement. But this has only been around for 10 or 20 years. If you think back
>>>to just the 60's and anytime before (to the beginning of civilization), 
>>>you will come across example after example of intolerance on the part of
>>>conservatives. 
>> 
>>    If we're defining conservatives as people who want to maintain the
>>status quo, and liberals as those pushing for change, 
>
>That is the way that I, and the dictionary define those terms (see original
>post).

     Well, if this is the way we're defining things, its tough to decide
that liberals or conservatives stand for *anything* as a group.  What is
liberal today is tomorrow's tried and true conservative tradition.

>>    And somehow "political correctness has only been around a little while"
>>doesn't seem like much of a defense.  Modern liberalism and historical
>>liberalism, by virtue of the way liberalism works, are not really the
>>same things.
>> 
>Which, once again, brings me back to the same question: WHY? It is
>this question that got to start this discussion, and so far nobody
>has tried to answer it. Can you answer it?

     Modern liberalism and historical liberalism are different, because
that's the way the term works.  If liberals push for change in the
status quo they can't, *by definition* maintain a consistant set of
beliefs, because *if they manage to implement their beliefs* they all
of a sudden *are* the status quo.  And if they *defend* their status
quo (ignoring whether or not they are "right") they have become conservative,
and somebody else is the liberal.
     Two hundred years ago liberals were advocates individual rights, 
property rights, capitalism, and restricted government.  They got what
they wanted in the U.S., to a degree.  Modern liberals (and here's where
I step on plenty of toes) advocate individual rights where they don't 
conflict with group rights, limited government intervention in personal
choices in certain areas, and extended government involvement in social and 
economic engineering.
     The reason modern liberalism is opposed to an individual right to keep
and bear arms is that it is very much centered around a parent/child care
relationship with the government.  When you stumble and fall (lose your
job) the government is supposed to be there to help you back up.  (The
safety net.)  The government is there to protect people both from each
other and themselves.  (Being a "nice guy" is part and parcel of liberalism,
for the most part.)
     A very large part of the reason many people want to own guns is
to protect themselves.  I can't count the number of times people I would
describe as liberal (and they'd agree) have told me "That's what the police
are for."  It is an attitude that the government is not only there to
protect you, but has the exclusive right to exercise force in your
defense, which of course excludes you from exercising force in your own
defense.
     Of course, this doesn't being to go into the "Guns are bad.  Guns
kill people," problem, but this could easily turn into a book on the
subject.
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David Veal               University of Tennessee Div. of Cont. Education
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  Information Services Group
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