From: hassell@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Christopher Hassell)
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Organization: (Let's see, I'm positive <clang> .. I've <rustle> got ... )
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:00:53 GMT

knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:

[ >To sit back calmly and believe that an outsider will be able to determine the
[ >difference is self deceiving.	
		(ch: between normal homos and deviant sexual-rights groups)

[ Yes, it is clear that the outsiders in CO feel no compelling reason to 
[ actually get the facts by themselves.

Facts schmackts.  Since when has any really successful political movement used
simple and overwhelming facts to easily get its vision across.  

Show facts to some larger group that "X-ist's are very nice and congenial 
people, or at least as nice and congenial as most people are".  

You haven't got any means of making such a happy statement about any group
which is widely known to be divergent or distant from a large norm.  The above
is what REALLY is "needed" and yet it cannot be "proven".  I would not point 
a sore finger at "outsiders in CO" as you call them.  Knowledge and 
wide-understanding don't rain on folks, and neither do enlightened opinions 
(unless you are in the Well-Conformed group whose members are all mutually 
assured to be englightened.. but if so, so very much for your OPEN mind).

Perversion means, by today's standards .. "aversion to the norm" 
(norm == heterosexual by genetic/social default).  It is fixed in people's
heads that way.  It can change, just as interracial marriages were "indecent"
beforehand.

[ >I think its amazing how homosexuals complain about being labeled, but are so
[ >eager to label others.  

[ Same argument as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and
[ "love thy neighbor as thyself"?

yes.  Anything wrong with these statements?   People LOVE the Bible and hate it
too in the same phrase.  So much for respect for others' thinking.

[ Typical humans. As long as we keep pointing fingers at the other for how
[ they're messing up, all we have is a lot of sore fingers.

Ditto, but <whine on> yew did it mewre than heee diid <whine off>.

[ >If homosexuals want acceptance, they'll have to earn it.

[ Just like straight sodomizers? 

I don't find wrecked children's lives to be very convincing.  I would find the
situation below rather convincing.  I can tolerate one, and I vehemently
despise the other.

[ >Rome wasn't built
[ >in a day.  Marching in the streets and labeling anyone who objects to the
[ >lifestyle as a hate monger will not get you far. 

[ Here you miss the point.

[ There is an immense difference between objecting to the lifestyle and 
[ working to pass laws which persecute a lifestyle. Religion is a lifestyle.
[ In fact, if you done any reading in social psychology you will see that
[ religion is much more of a choice than homosexuality. Which one is tax
[ free? Makes you think.

There is no true difference.  We live in a Democra/Media-cracy.  Objections
lead to assertions.  It is merelya  strangely purported view that all is 
relative and thinking is fine as long as it isn't too LOUDLY EXPRESSED [if 
its WRONG] (by say, a petition etc..).  I find that line of logic to be far 
too overused, and overaccepted.

Are YOU not objecting to something, and do YOU not plan to "effect change" to
bring it back into kilter with your views?  Secondly... don't you see that the
amendment is NOT "pro-control".. it is very much "anti-control", albeit
rather and selectively in a novel fashion.   It prevents laws.  You want those
laws.  You DO want to "impose your thinking" so far as it has to do with
economic dealings and other rather "impersonal" aspects of life.  

Very much you wish to impose your thinking, and you might want to have a KKK 
change their thinking too.. especially if they wanted to band together and try
to persuade many folks (as well as their own controlled interests) to avoid
their hated groups (too many to list etc.. etc..).

Passing laws was YOUR end of the bargain... so don't attack it, because you 
are on ITS SIDE.  Nuff said about "pro-active" and "anti-active" redefinitions?

[ I don't see a need to persecute them just because
[ I don't understand their sexuality, just like I don't see a need to 
[ persecute Christians for being hypocrites. 

Ah.  Ye understandeth Christ and his Word well then, asketh I?  Hypocracy.
There IS hypocrisy in Amendment 2... but do you know where it is?  I didn't
think so.  Speak about the faith you understand, and learn specifics about
others.

[ Here is large group of people
[ who sit in church each sunday ranting about how good they are and how
[ good they're going to be to people, then they go out and do whatever
[ they want anyway. Sheesh. But, then again, that's life. That is their
[ choice.

Here is a large group of people who sit in *cafes/coffee-houses* each 
*saturday* ranting about how good they are and how good they're going to be 
to people, then they go out and do whatever they want anyway. Sheesh. But, 
then again, that's life. That is their choice.

Get a life and get an understanding of what is CARICATURE and what IS NOT!
I know its hard to avoid... given coverage of folks and your staunch
disagreement with any Christianized political vision [something I consider to
be abhorrant itself].  Even folks you had no political qualms with could
possibly receive contempt from you just by their style of living (now a common
target.. no?).

The Left, a political alignment with which I share much in my opinions, seems
to go further and further into comic-book worlds of Happy Hippies who are
Mystical in a Happy Way and who don't like those Bad Fascist Christians who are
so Maniacal. <WHAM POW!>

[ Oddly, most child molesters I've read about have been white, male Christians.
[ Most people I've known with VD have been white male Christians.

Christian.  Ahh.. pleasing little word (say it quietly: Chrisstian... ahh).
Oddly enough it has some strange significance to it.   I know.. keep that quiet
and all... its really quite the silly thing.  

Since sex is such the HOT TOPIC.. its strange how people who constantly rant 
on about what Christians believe, seem to never note some interesting 
specifics.  Specifics about how many "cults" (derived sects usually sprining
from an originally heretical doctrine-shift/addition) seem to LOOOVE
identifying with Christianity.  Why then is anyone who claims Abassadorship and
Spokespersonship with Christianity always accorded Biblical and
basic-doctrinal status?

[ IS this time for another amendment proposal to ban rights for white male
[ Christians?!?!  

[ No.

I wonder how staunch you are on that last line?  Maybe you'd not mind
monitoring of the people whom you define as "Christian" .. given your
appreciation of their "behavior" and apparent arrogance.  (I'd even like to 
meet some of these folks in Boulder somewhere.. are there any who really 
LIVE here with others of their kind.. all agreeing together just like you said
about it all??)

[ >Education and lots of quiet
[ >discussion, good neighbor examples, etc. will win far more because the fear
[ >will go away.  

[ Agreed.

Then agree earlier as well.  It helps with consistancy.

[ >An example of what I am talking about is this:
[ >    Given a Hetro, Married lady named Sue with 2 kids living in suberbia
[ >    suddenly has 2 gay men move in next door.  Her initial reaction is fear
[ >    and revulsion because all she has ever known of homosexuals is that they
[ >    are sleezy perverts or something.

[ Unless she's also educated.

Finger point, finger point.  <creak> <owuch>.  

Educated seems at times to mean: Agrees with proper interpretation of said
issue.  

If a bunch of Black young men moved in next door, a stolidly un-"educated" 
family might also be fearful, due even entirely to "facts" seen on TV.  Such 
a family would also think driving wholly dangerous (not that it isn't) and 
that all families use tons and tons of sarcasm in order to make the 
mile-a-minute sitcom-quota of jokes.  (okay okay.. how much of TV is narrow 
twisting and how much "factual statements" but they do exist though twisted 
all they want).  Facts come in packets of idealism.  TV has something of an
idealism, and so do you.  Education is not usually merely facts, but that
package too.

Being fearful makes sense sometimes.  
Staying fearful with means of changing it is stupid.

[ >    After a while, she finds out that these neighbors are quiet, keep their
[ >    lawn/home well, and helpful.  Her outlook changes because of example.
[ >    She will take that memory wherever she goes and it will spread to others.

[ Yes, she is then educated that you cannot judge a book by its cover, nor
[ a class of people by a few extremists.

A "few extremists".  The KKK claims to have "extremists" who do dirty work, and
they themselves do "normal petitioning for hard-working Americans". I don't
mean to claim gays share an iota with the KKK, but you must note that
"education" is not so crystalline-happy clear as you might guess.  The
extremists are loud, and that homosexual "family" speaks softly.  Such is what
much of history is full of.  

Simple "don't judge a book by its cover" statements won't excuse your lovely
assertions about Church-goers .. even too if you meant Right Winged Church 
Goers.

[ >Do you think that direct confrontation will work better than this?  If so, 
[>go study history for a while.  Black civil rights wasn't won through fighting,
[ >it was won through understanding.

[ It was won through confronting the issue though. Violence is never a winner,
[ bringing the issue to light through demonstrations and news coverage is.

Well.. yes.  I agree here, because comfortable people will comfortably ignore
that uncomfortable change from uncomfortable-seeming other people.

Still, demonstrations are overrated and strangely enough seem to heighten 
tension.  Strangely enough they can even become violent.  Strangely enough 
they are even sorta ... sscccarrryy to an average law-abiding citizen.  
<gasp and choke>

Hard to believe, I know.  (just watch international news at times)

[ >It is an undeniable fact that it is human nature to hate and fear that which
[ >we do not understand.

[ Unfortunately, that does appear to be the case.

People can be civilized too, and even kind.

Practice the gospel that you preach and that others preach.  Find out about
your opposed group and don't smush them up into a messy mass which must be
shouted at and not talked to.

[ -- 
[ David Knapp                                   University of Colorado, Boulder
[ Perpetual Student                                 knapp@spot.colorado.edu
[Looks like hate *is* a family value after all and Colorado families are for it.
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