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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:21:25 -0700
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Zahir,

What I mean by "freshman-level rhetoric" is the type of rhetoric
we find in freshman-level writing classes often (and, unfortunately
in other levels as well, but that's another topic).  It refers to
the type of writing which asserts a statement (a "claim) and then
"supports" that claim, not with "warrants," but with repetition of
the claim.

Now, the requirement that claims must have warrants in order to
be valid is, certainly, reflective of the rhetoric of English.
The same requirement for claims and warrants occurs in other
languages, but what is accepted as a warrant varies from one
language to another.  In Greek, for example, the acceptable
warrants are different.

This list is conducted in English, for better or worse  :-)
Consequently, the rhetoric of English is implied and assumed.

I was not trying to "shut up anyone."  I was suggesting
that those who wish to present an argument will be more
successful if they employ the rhetorical conventions of
the language in use.  More succesful, that is, in getting
others to at least consider the argument, rather than
rejecting it out of hand.

[And, since you asked, I can't tell from the information in
my e-mail directory who sent a message, just that it came
from XCULT-L.  But that's not a problem we need to try
to solve on this list.  Remember?  We had that discussion
a few months ago  :-) ]

Janet
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:34:00 EST
From:         PDAVIS@LIUVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Jon,

Things started to get better, but thanks to the Regan-Bush administration
virtually every gain was reversed.

Thurgood Marshall played a major role in helping to restructure the society
yet most of his lifes work was undone.

Did you know that during the regan bush error (I use that word intentionally)
that college enrollment of African Americans declined by 22%?  Did you
notice how during the Regan bush error, that there was a rather successful
attempt at showing how white males suffered from affirmative actions programs?
(I'm not going to get into a discussion about quotas.  I have lots of friends
that are underemployed.)  In this society there has always been affirmative
action for white males.  Affirmative action for people of color was 1) an
addmission that the society was racist to the core, and the 2) some form of
redress was required to give African Americans access to what the society
offers.  During the regan-bush error, it seems as if this was all forgotten.

In my mind the period which we've just gone through has done little for the
plight of women, people of color, gays, children, the environment, latin
america, africa or anything that white males cannot see themselves directly
benefitting from.  Think about it.

And the media just uncritically sat by while all this happened.

If information does not liberate people, it is useless.  The information
that is delivered to us on a daily basis does not liberate us.  It does little
to improve the quality of our lives and our environment.

Again I challenge the American people, who can watch a president go to an
enviromental summit and reject all the major proposals to save the planet.
It seems to me that this should have caused us all to jump out of our skin.

The problems we face accross cultures and everywhere else have a lot to
do with the quality of the information that we receive.  In addition it has
alot to do with the consciousness that we the people have formed.

At the prompting of some of my instructors, I recently started to think
about the legacy of "enlightmentment style thinking" and the problems
it creates for us.  First chance I get I'll put something on here for us to
discuss.

Peace,


Phil
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:04:46 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet,

You may call it cross cultural MIS-communication.... I have seen it
happen in our U.S. courts where a witness is so thoroughly caught up
in semantics by the defense attorney framing and reframing questions
bringing about confusion to the witness....

I repeat, I merely pointed out that I do not think we have a democracy
and gave examples of the results of our system......to explain my
point of view.  Similiarly, I gave examples of why I think our media
(TV and major magazines) is biased, has a slant and that as a result of
this, our people are not well informed enough to make choices that would
reflect in a democracy....

Instead of claiming that I have not shown any "warrants" or "evidence", and
trying to cross examine, perhaps you and others who shoose to disagree
should point out the reasons why you believe the U.S. is a
democracy (because people cast votes) or that the media can be fair to those
it earns a living from....

I have yet to hear from you on this....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:05:56 -0400
From:         MISIMC91@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Re[2]: Time to introduce yourself!

hi Roseann I'm Mark Charles from Oneonta State college at New York. I'm a senior
    and a Speech Communications major and dueling with a Theater Major. You soun
   d like me but I never touched A computer untill a week ago. I am willing to l
   earn because
this stuff really is full. Bear with me an  my typos and stuff I am a little stu
   pid.
I always forget to return after each line. dah!! well hope to hear from you soon
Marky Mark well its my nick name Don't worry I look nothing like him It's just
the name.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:51:09 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Our Christian nation

Hatem,

The perception in America about persecution of christains and Americans (some
see it as the same..) seems to come from a few factors operating here in
America.... One is the media's interest in generating "live" reports and
pictures, be it from Iraq now or Iran before...where a lot of slogans
such as "Down with America" and burning of American flags are yelled by
"Arabic looking" people in the background with signs in Arabic script, make
Americans think that "fundamentalist Arabs" are in conflict with christianity...

Second is the confusion with the American "Black muslim" movement which at
one time (but the perception still exists) advocated against whites...

Finally, America does have stories here of persecution, particularly, in Iran
of those of other religions (Bahai's in particular)...as many people of
Iranian descent used religious persecution in applying for political
asylum in the U.S.....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:54:55 -0800
From:         RAUL MENDOZA <RMENDOZA@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Time to introduce yourself!

I enter this conference because I really enjoy meeting people from differnet cul
 tures.  ALso it gives me a chance to get involved issues where I can give a opi
 nion and be heard.  It is also part of one of my class requirements.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:36:08 -0400
From:         MISIMC91@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Time to introduce yourself!

Hi My Name is Mark Charles and I go to Oneonta StaTe college. This sounds corny.
    Well you did say to introduce myself. I am a second semester senior and a sp
   eech and theater major
This is my first time on a computer and I'm messing up alot so bare with me. Thi
   s email stuff is cool I think . That was a stupid and childish thing to say.
   Well
I am a baby at this. I keep forgetting to hit return. If you don't respond I'll
   understand . Anyway I just realized you wanted to talk to people from differe
   nt cultures and I'm in the same state as you. Dah!! sorry for wasting your ti
   me.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:13:52 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet,

Thanks for clarifying... I now understand the "warrants" etc. a little
better....

Regarding the media.... I indicated that since the time of Vietnam and
Watergate, the major media (TV, Time etc.) is now owned by major corporation
that deal with gov't at various levels and thus susceptible to pressure...
for example, RCA which owns NBC competes for defense contracts... plus,
all of them, the networks, compete for a share of the advertisment budget
of say, General Motors,...thus compromising their capability to investigate
and report on that corporation... Basically, the advertisement and money making
department controls the journalism and reporting to some extent.... I also
gave examples in cities where the major and often only newspaper is dependent
on their major advertisor and so will back off if the advertisor pushes the
point.... Igave specific example of one instance where the paper refused and
the grocery chain cancelled their contract and went to direct advertising
costing the paper a lot of revenue...

My second observation was that in some countries the gov't had total control,
in others (Italy) each party is given a channel and there is more variety
of reporting than found in the U.S., and finally, perspectives and TV
shots and commentary after the Gulf war was similiar and limited in the U.S.,
whilw more variety was found in the coverages in Europe...

My final point is that many stories on corporations and the U.S. gov't
break either in papers on the right (Human Rights magazine, new republic) or
on the left (Mother Jones, the Nation) and are often never reported by the
major channels....  often the papers get their tips from those who work
for the major papers or reporters because their magazine, network etc. are
too concerned about objections and pressure and loss of revenue or loss of
access if they broke the story....

I did not use the term conspiracy.... I feel that if the motivation is the
same, revenue, and the sources are the same (major corporations like GM,
AT@T, GE and so on) then the results are the same...this accounts for the
similiarities in what one finds on the networks, be it shows or news or
commentary.... The smaller papers are purely news organizations and their
revenue does not come from these sources...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:46:37 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Janet,

The same polls that so accurately predicted our elections have also done
polls on the subject of gun control and health insurance.....  Its not
just you and me, its a majority in the country...  Polls by CNN, TIME
and ABC have shown this....  We now have elected a president who has stood fi
on this issue....

But we have created a system where very often the president cannot be
blamed because the House and Senate will not pass the needed legislation..
......money from the interest groups is too important for them to
allow it to happen...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:51:50 CST
Comments:     Resent-From: nora l ishibashi <nli1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
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              <MAILER-DAEMON@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
From:         nora l ishibashi <nli1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      Returned mail: User unknown

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Connected to uchimvs1.uchicago.edu:
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 11:49:53 CST
From: nora l ishibashi <nli1@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: XCULT-L@PUVM.BITNET
Subject: Media Bias
Message-Id: <CMM.0.90.4.728243393.nli1@quads.uchicago.edu>

Phil _does_ have some good points. So does Kerry. But does anyone still need
to be convinced that structures and institutions are unbalanced here (and in
lots of places all over the world). What kinds of things need to happen for
the balance to shift.Not "people need to be more aware", but what would
individual people (us) have to do to begin to shift the balance? Is the
election of Clinton a beginning in a move toward a more equitable value
system?

Nora L. Ishibashi
nli1@midway.uchicago.edu
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 01:17:05 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Inauguration prayer

Billy Graham was not the only religious person involved in the inauguration.
Did you not see the service in the morning with the ecumencial display.  I
think the transition before the Inauguration was pretty poor.  I don't think
that Clinton's Inaugural address was particularly memorable.  It is not as
distinguished a Cabinet as many had hoped, but just because you don't care for
an old institution, Billy Graham, whose views on religion in many ways differ
from mine and I take it from yours, does not mean that this Inauguration was
not a step forward.  When the best speech is delivered by a Black minister at
an historically Black church and (forgive me, Robert Frost) the best poet
ever to grace that occasion is a Black woman, there has been progress.  When
the Black minister turned to his Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim colleagues, that
was not a step backward.  Was there something you did like about the
inauguration?  To my taste it is getting to be too much like a Rose Bowl
Parade or even Macy's.  But that is just a matter of taste.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:08:45 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

On Mon, 25 Jan 1993, AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET wrote:

> Dougl,
>
> I really do not have the answers, Dougl.  All I was saying was that if our
> laws are selectively applied (as they are) then there is little equality...
>
> zahir

Zahir, I think your answer is one of the answers to an imponderable which
Jon seems not to want to address - mass democracy is an oxymoron precisely
because the laws can only be selectively applied.

dougl....apparently.....

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
douglass p. st.christian  << stchri@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca >>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:17:56 EST
From:         Dave Nasatir <nasatir@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      RE: foreign trip

Hi Kerry
        Thanks for sharing you enthusiasm.
        What else did you particularly like about
        your trip?

|=====================================================|
|Dave Nasatir            "I think I speak for everyone|
|                          but I'm usually wrong".    |
|Email:  nasatir@dhvx20.csudh.edu                     |
|Work phone: (310) 516 3435                           |
|Home phone: (510) 845 1029                           |
|                        __o         __o       __o    |
|                      _ \<,_      _ \<,_    _ \<,_   |
|=====================(_)/ (_)====(_)/ (_)==(_)/ (_)==|
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:15:50 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Your proposition and question

On xxx, 21 Jan 1993, Username was LODEESEN wrote:

> Your "HoHum..." sums it up.  If you want to engage in discourse with anyone
> on any subject you are going to have to accept the "tyranny" of mutually
> comprehensible terminology.  If you cannot do that and say instead, "when
> I use the word I mean something else because I don't like the concept suggeste
   d
> by the definition to be found in the sources used for definitions", then you
> cannot discuss.  You seem to be angry because you were wrong.  I had hoped
> that you had more self control than that.  Shall we say goodbye.


Why is that those with the largest blind spots are always the first to
accuse their interlocutors of crankiness.

Jon..to repeat my central point, had you bothered to read it....

Dictionaries do not define political realities. Lived history does. To
claim that what you laud so loudly as American democracy is anything other
than a smoke and mirrors con job is to choose, for whatever reason, to
ignore the simplest of realities.

Because even if we accept the propoosition that representation is indeed
an acceptable model of democracy, what you cannot argue away are unequal
access to the role of representative, unequal distribution of votes, the
need to $$$$'s to even begin to consider engaging in this representational
farce.  And so on.

You don't want to discuss the reality of American democracy, you want to
champion its deceptive dream.

As my old rhetoric prof told, it is fruitless to argue the merits of an
absurdity.

American Democracy???? this is theatre of the absurd on a truly monumental
level.


Dougl,           *
The           .
Southern       *   *
Cross            *


<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<

Douglass P.St.Christian
Anthrpology
McMaster
Hamilton,Ontario,Canada
stchri@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca

>->->->->->->->
From: WDOUKMAK@MERC.RX.UGA.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Inauguration prayer
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:33:05 GMT
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> Did anyone else notice/take offense at the prayer said by Billy
>Graham
> (what was he doing there anyway?!?)?  When will separation of church and
> state start in this country (not only praying to "our Lord," but "in the
> name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"--so much for
> American atheists, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, etc.)?  What happened to
> Clinton's desire to be inclusive?  A bunch of us just fell by the wayside--why
> pray at a state function in a secular society anyhow?
>
>
[ .. stuff deleted..]

I noticed.  As for "took offence", I don't think so.  Not because I
approve it, but rather because I came to a conclusion (long ago) that
the claim that church and state are separated is indeed a hoax.

It actually ocurred to me why not have a Moslem or a Jew officiate
(if indeed it is needed).  Someone mentioned to me that in the
Congress , Moslems, Jews and Christians are taking turns in the
prayer.

By the way, when asked on Larry King this evening
whether he disliked the "too much spending involved in the
inaguration", Bill Graham answered no.  He said that it is nice to
have such a celebration every four years.  He made me confused.  I
always thought that "religious" persons oppose extravagant spending
and like to see money spent on needy rather on well offs.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:18:48 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: HELLO, LIST MEMBERS

Sheryl, since you volunteer, I would indeed like to ask you some questions since
your represent one of the diverse cultures on campus, the one to which I was
closest while growing up while at the same time being sharply separated from it.
At your age, today, in yourself, how many cultures do you feel are reflectged
and in what order?  Do you feel called upon to display reflections of cultures
not of your choice?  Are their people who try to make such choices for you, and
if so, who (not names, or course, but what kind of people)?  Is their greater
pride in the contribution of the culture with which you identify or in its
distinctiveness?
  I grew up in a time and place where I was expected to look and sound like all
of my neighbors.  What is expected today?  Thank you for the offer to explore.
Jon Lodeesen (an American incapable of imagining this country without diversity)
 )
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:38:23 -0800
From:         BERYL BELLMAN <BBELLMAN@BESTSD.SDSU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Time to introduce yourself!

This is Beryl Bellman responding to Oliver and Tom's suggestion about
new introductions.  I am a professor of Communication Studies at
Cal State Los Angeles with teaching and research interests in
intercultural, language and culture, nonverbal, theory and human
communication technologies.  I co-founded an international academic network
called Bestnet (binational english and spanish telecommunications network)
about 7 years ago, which now has some 5000 users and distributed nodes
in USA, Canada, Mexico, Latin America, Europe, and with the support
in part from our corporate sponsor, Digital, we are moving quickly to
create nodes in Africa (in concert with the African Academcy of Sciences),
Eastern Europe and Russia.  I also do considerable work in the area of
refugee studies and political asylum, and have been studying the us
asylum process and refugee processing with an emphasis on intercultural
issues involved.

I teach intercultural communications, and just had my 140 plus students sub-
scribe to this listserv... so you should be hearing from them soon...
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:26:59 EST
From:         Dave Nasatir <nasatir@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Democracy or no

Dougl
for what it's worth, I think the creation of a new "people"
from a remarkebly heterogenous base and
persisting in a relatively stable government (only one
civil war and a general level of civil unrest that's not
as good )low) as it should be but not as hihg as in
other heterogenous groupings.  I think thats pretty monumental
and amazing.

        Dave
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