HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Is SF imaginative? (somewhat long)
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:32:58 GMT
Distribution: world
Back-References: <1joah2$134@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sparc8.cs.tamu.edu
In-reply-to: w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu's message of 21 JAN 93 14:08:19 GMT

In <ESCHNEID.93Jan21172816@sparc8.tamu.edu> Erich R Schneider wrote:
>                          Note also the split which seems to exist
> between aficionados of "hard SF" versus supporters of the New Wave-ish
> "soft SF"; "hard SF" focuses on technical issues, and so tends to
> assume present cultural norms without question, while "soft SF"
> focuses on psychological and sociological issues and _must_ deal with
> our present cultural norms and the ways in which they are/may be
> flawed.

This strikes me as self-congratulatory garbage.

I think hard SF does a *better* job of challenging accepted social norms than
"soft" or New-Wave SF.  Hard SF at least tries to present a logically credible
future different from ours; "soft SF", for all its ambitions, usually fails as
challenge because it fails as extrapolation.

I'm not impressed by SF authors who wave around social-criticism agendas while
displaying massive ignorance of science, history, economics and ecology.  I
can't be challenged by an imagined future I don't believe.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai
Date: 24 Jan 1993 19:37:54 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu
Keywords: Sedai, Templar, Masonry

In article <1993Jan24.061047.18557@cc.gatech.edu> erica@cc.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman) writes:

Spoilers ahead...

>3. Mat is Artur Pendreag OR Aemon reborn.  Whoever had the red eagle banner.
>He has picked up on this now, speaks old-tounge perfectly and remembers
>battles he ought not to.  He is the one most in control of Ta'verenishness
>and has a deathwish. He also has blown the horn and thus can do it again.
>(well, sort of)

It seems to me he must be Aemon, or some other hero of Manetheren.
Remember, Artur Hawkwing showed up when Mat sounded the horn the first
time, yet Aemon was nowhere to be seen (because Mat is Aemon).

>4. The name al'Thor probably means that Tam is descended from the old king
>Thorin mentioned in the books (ANOTHER REFERENCE TO LOTR!)

I got the distinct impression that Tam is the fabled Jain Farstrider.
I don't remember all the clues that brought me to that conclusion, but
he *does* have that fancy sword, which isn't just your average
heron-mark blade.  At one point someone mentions that Tam's blade
dates back to the Age of Legends.  Now how would a common footsoldier
get a sword like that?

Paul


-- 
Paul Secinaro
pss1@kepler.unh.edu
Synthetic Vision and Pattern Analysis Laboratory
UNH Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering
From: Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@XEROX.COM
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The the great ongoing misogyny/misandry discussion
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:18:23 GMT

DANNY@ccm.umanitoba.ca says -

<I have read female authors who write strictly from a female viewpoint and no
one is pointing at them and saying 'MAN HATER".

Remember, you read it here first.

It appears that SFantasy in particular is veering off into some rather 'radical
feminist' directions. I no longer read much new Anne McCaffrey or Marion Zimmer
Bradley, because I have gotten a bit tired of listening to repeated tirades on
how men are testosterone-poisoned, irresponsible, abusers of all that is good
in the universe (i.e., The Mother Goddess and her many crafts, which appear to
consist primarily of herbal medicine, weaving, natural childbirth and crystal
hugging/singing/worshipping/younameit)...These authors are MAN HATERS! As well
as Luddites. (I'm sure people can point to sympathetic male characters in their
fiction, especially their early works, but I'm talking about the preponderance
of characters in their recent work).

Folks (or Filks), we are all in this together. I like to read books where there
are males and females cooperating equally as members of the human race. Lois
McMaster Bujold's LORD VORKOSIGAN books stand out in my mind. Certainly there
are bad guys (Count Vorrutyer, Prince Serg) but there are are also bad gals
(the Betan Psychologist, Livia Nu). If we humans start being reflexively
confrontational with the opposite sex, how are we ever begin to get along with
people who aren't humans? So how does this posited future of doctrinaire
antagonism help us shape the future into what we want it to be? Or isn't that
part of the point of SF?

Flame on, mes amis

Alexandra H.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: The the great ongoing misogyny/misandry discussion
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 07:59:33 GMT

phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:
>Worst example of a War-Between-the-Sexes I can recall was a book (by an
>author mercifully forgotten) called "Native Tongue," about a tribe of
>professional translators on an Earth where women are legally inferior
>(apparently deemed so by some bizarre scientific finding in the past,
>although the woman who wrote it never bothered to explain it).

>I specifically recall that the women have some secret language called
>"Laadan" (which is apparantly "real," on the order of Esparanto), which
>men were Never To Know About.

AHA!  Suzette Hadin Elgin!  Actually, I really enjoyed this book -- the "men"
were so exaggeratedly ludicrous -- testosterone-poisoned bozos who made even
Puritans look like hippies -- that it turned into a classic SF-style
"intelligence vs. ignorance" struggle.  I never for a second identified with
the men; none of it ever connected to me.  I'm sure S.H.E. would choke if
she read that.

Laadan is an interesting language; there's a "First Dictionary and Primer
of Laadan" available from Elgin.  It makes a good introduction to Southwestern
American Indian languages, since that's where she cribbed much of the
language structure from.  (Or, as she puts it in the introduction, used the
"bricolage" or patchwork technique, by which women throughout the ages have
assembled quilts, in defiance of the scorn of the patriarchal male scientific
paradigm.)  There's no real explanation of why statement-type markers or 
knowledge particles (for instance) are in any way essential properties of a
"womanlanguage", though.

The fundamental problem with Native Tongue is that it fails as a novel; it
has no closure at all.  Two subplots meander their way through the book and
never connect with each other (the aliens with whom no one can communicate,
and the oppression of women); each has a minor resolution but the whole thing
screams "first book of an interminable series."  Which is a shame, because,
if Native Tongue were a complete novel, it would make excellent reading for
a women's studies or feminist literature class.

I get the impression that Native Tongue and The Judas Rose are basically
bitch therapy for the author: the hyperexaggerated oppression and ignorance
in the imaginary world let you vent all your vituperation and frustration.
I suspect that most of the men in the book are caricatures of sexists she's
had to suffer with.  I thought the books were as fun as a generic Van Vogt
novel, but then I like Van Vogt.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: knott@sfu.ca (Dave Knott)
Subject: Forsaken (Re: Aes Sedai)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:29:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.090024.1@woods.ulowell.edu>  
steevesm@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
> 
> As for the Forsaken, there are (or was) thirteen of them.  The tallys  
are:
> 
> 		2 killed at the Eye of the World
> 		Lanfear still roaming free
> 		One killed (?) in the Stone of Tear
> 		One caught and "gentled" (sorta) by Rand to teach him how
> 		   to use the one power.
> 		One playing lovebird with Morgase
> 		One got her butt whipped by Nynaeve when they raided that
> 		   hall-thingy in the last book.
> 
> Those are all I can recall at this time....


Here is a complete list of the forsaken and their known  
activities/whereabouts:

Aginor	  - Dead. Killed by Rand at the Eye of the World.
Asmodean  - Captured by Rand at Rhuidean. Partially shielded from Saidin.
	    Connection to Dark One is severed.
	    Currently acting as Rand's mentor in channeling.
Balthamel - Dead. Killed by the Green Man at the Eye of the World.
Be'lal	  - Dead. Killed by Moiraine in the Stone of Tear
	    AKA: High Lord Samon of Tear
Demandred - Unknown
Graendal  - Unknown
Ishamael  - Presumed dead (Highly unlikely).
	    Supposedly killed by Rand in the Stone of Tear
	    Real name: Beidomon
	    AKA: Ba'alzamon?
Lanfear	  - Active. Watching over Rand and interefering a lot.
	    Has her own agenda. Seeks to overthrow Forsaken and Shai'tan!
	    Real name: Mierin
	    AKA: Selene
Mesaana   - Unknown
Moghedien - Beaten up my Nynaeve in Tanchico.
	    May have escaped by completely moving into Tel'aran'rhiod.
	    Brigette mentions that she is the most powerful Forsaken in
	    the world of dreams and it is supposed to be possible to move
	    your entire physical body into there.
Rahvin	  - In Caemlyn. High adviser and lover(?) to Queen Morgase.
	    AKA: Gaebril
Sammael	  - In Illian. High ranking lord there.
Semirhage - Unknown


Dave Knott (not Knot nor Not)
knott@sfu.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: write@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Glen Cox)
Subject: Re: Any GOOD sf-magazines/bookclubs?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:01:37 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1993Jan26.140559.16746@odin.diku.dk> expert@diku.dk (Stephan Grubbe) writes:
>I'm a big fan of Isaac Asimov and I have recently started reading his early
>work. It seems that he used to get his work published via magazines. My
>question is if such GOOD magazine still exist and if not does there exist a
>sort of bookclub specially for sf?

Depending on your taste, the following are probably the best magazines
for short fiction in SF/F:

Asimov's Science Fiction
   Although some people call this Gardner Dozois' Almost-But-Not-Quite
   Science Fiction Magazine, this is usually the repository of the
   best in short SF.

Fantasy and Science Fiction
   Close runner-up to the above.

Analog
   I personally can't stand it, given its emphasis on character-less
   SF, but there's an occasional gem (Steve Gould's "Peaches for Mad
   Molly" comes to mind) that makes it worthwhile.  Like I said, 
   it depends on your SF taste.

-------
After those three, pickings are subject to deteriorate.  The following
are worth looking at:

OMNI
   Only publishes one SF story per issue on the average.  Usually
   a damn good SF story, but still, worth the price of an entire
   magazine?

SF Age
   Bright new publication that has only seen two issues so far.
   SF's new leading light?  We can only hope.

Amazing
   Bills itself as the world's longest-running SF magazine.  Not
   as doddering as Analog, but still pretty hit-and-miss.  Brightly
   colored like SF Age, which helps, though.

Pulphouse
   The young turks of Oregon publish this.  Can't be too bad if
   they bought one of my stories, right?

Tomorrow SF
   Originally the second publication by the same folks that 
   brought you Pulphouse, but now entirely owned by Algis
   Budrys, who also edits it.  I haven't seen a copy, so I
   can't really comment on it.

That's pretty much the major SF short fiction markets.  If you
need addresses, don't hesitate to drop me a line.

glen

Glen E. Cox               *  No quote today
write@lamar.ColoState.Edu *
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Pournelle, continued (Legacy of Heorot SPOILERS)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 14:01:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b63519.student.cwru.edu

In article <C1B54s.2IG@brunel.ac.uk> mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>>Wow! All these different Niven male/female disparity thingies going on, and
>>nobody mentioned the Grendels, where the females (those are the big, ugly
>>dragon critters) _eat_ the males (being the samlon - no, i didn't misspell
>>that, read the book) and are _much_ more intelligent, agressive, etc.
>
>Sorry, the adults of both sexes eat the young, of both sexes.  Read the book.

Read the book yourself. Del was right -- the females eat the males. Male 
grendels are samlon. Upon reaching maturity, they change into grendels and 
become female. No male grendel would eat a grendel, of any sex, because they 
are herbivorous.
-----
Damien Neil   dpn2@po.cwru.edu    "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
Case Western Reserve University    I can do is a quick patch here and there."
CMPS/EEAP double majoring masochist               - Erik Green
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH)
Subject: Tolkien's (and Donaldson's) style (was Re: writing Styles)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:51:29 GMT

I currently have an unpopular view of Tolkien's style.
If you think it is sacrilege to criticize his works, please stop
reading now. :-)

I read The Hobbit and thought it was good.  I then read the first
book of the LotR trilogy, and disliked it.  One problem was that
I got bogged down trying to follow the maps; a lot of the places
visited were not on the maps, but it took a lot of searching to
be sure.

I also didn't appreciate all of the minor/trivial characters and
geneology.  I know Tolkien was trying to create a realistic world,
but I found a lot of that to be chaff, irrelevant to the story.
He did put a lot of effort into developing the world, and if I were
into fantasy gaming or maybe studying the books, I'm sure I'd
appreciate the extra detail.

I found his style in some ways to be extremely plain.  For example,
when characters spoke, it was always "X said" or "Y said."

I then read Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books.  I loved them.
Everything that had annoyed me about Tolkien's style, Donaldson did
"correctly."  Every place visited could be found on the maps.  Characters
were very well developed and none were unnecessary.  (The writing was
much "tighter.")  "X said" was replaced by, "X gasped," or "X whispered,"
etc.  Donaldson's style brought me emotionally into the story.  I
enjoyed "escaping" to the Land, the nobelness of certain characters, etc.

For the record, I don't consider the Thomas Covenant books perfect
either (e.g., the 2nd book of the 2nd trilogy seemed like filler to
make a trilogy), but I would give Donaldson an A/A+.

[ I do have a beef with a technique Donaldson used in The Mirror
of Her Dreams (1st book of Mordant's Need).  In it, the characters try
to solve various mysteries.  The reader is forced to accept weak, ill-
based deductions by the characters, only to find out later they were
wrong, and then on to other quantum-leap deductions, which also turn
out to be wrong, etc.  Other than that, I *did* enjoy the book. ]

Anyway, back to Tolkien.  My impression is that his LotR is the first
major fantasy that a lot of people read, and it is in some ways like
a "first love."  It is special, and maybe the best of its time, but
for my tastes anyway it is not the best fantasy of all time (as many
people say).  I will definitely give LotR another chance, and will
change my reading style and read it more quickly and ignore the maps,
genealogy details, etc.  Maybe that's how it should be read the first
time, quickly for the action?

-Rob
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Aes Sedai
Date: 25 Jan 1993 05:48:52 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Sedai, Templar, Masonry

In article <1993Jan24.061047.18557@cc.gatech.edu> erica@cc.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman) writes:
>More references!
>Wound in the side of Rand: fisher king

Hmm.. Doesn't Christ have a wound at his side from the Spear of Longinus?
>
>Erica
[ Other great observations deleted.. ]
Chua
+==+
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:23:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1993Jan20.050904.5207@atlantis.uucp> aaron@atlantis.uucp writes:
>A strange idea(maybe not even an idea--a conceit)came to me a couple of
>nights ago.
>Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy?
>Any other comments?  Seawasp, you're a Covenant expert--what do you think?

	Interesting thought.

	I'd say, probably yes. The first point of his leprosy was to keep
him separated, through revulsion, from other people. AIDS can certainly
generate such a reaction.
	Second, it was a disease that required constant vigilance in order
to keep the person alive. While AIDS itself won't kill, anyone with it
has to watch out for all sorts of infections; no immune system = no 
resistance = sudden death.
	Depending on what stage of AIDS he'd gotten to, there could well
be some overt symptoms that hurtloam would cure immediately. The various
cancers that show up, like Kaposi's Sarcoma, would disappear. Coughs,
etc., would go away. Yes, I think that would work.

	Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the  SECOND
trilogy. If the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it
was fairly advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant
would never have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be
in any shape to  do the adventures in the Wounded Land without 
hurtloam.

	And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: sigel@vsscad.enet.dec.com (Andrew Sigel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Memory,Sorrow and Thorn
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:02:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <74240@cup.portal.com>, JeffS@cup.portal.com (Jeffrey K Seidel) writes...
>Hi,
>   I've been reading this series by Tad Williams but things seem
>to have come to a halt since 'The Stone of Farewell'. Does anyone
>have any information on it? Did something happen to Tad Williams?
>I really enjoyed this series but book 3 has been a long time
>coming (Walden Books says they have no info on a release date
>and no title listed as an upcoming release). Any info would be
>appreciated.
>                                         JeffS

Tell Waldenbooks to look again.  TO GREEN ANGEL TOWER is a March 1993
hardcover from DAW Books; I believe the price is to be $25.00, which
comes out to about two and a half cents a page.  (If the price looks high,
remember that more than a few paperbacks have that kind of price per page.
It's really a bargain. :-) )
---   
Andrew Sigel (Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton, MA)

UUCP		...!decwrl!vsscad.enet!sigel
Internet	sigel@vsscad.enet.dec.com	
	- or -	sigel%vsscad.enet@decwrl.dec.com
---
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cwalters@ducvax.auburn.edu (The Honky Avenger)
Subject: looking for obscure O.S.Card
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Auburn University--Auburn, AL
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:41:00 GMT

Hi, all.

A friend once told me of an OSCard book called "Saint Speak" that was
about Mormonism.  I was reminded of in it in a recent SF-LOVERS-DIGEST,
which I accidentally trashed :(

Does anyone know anything about this book?  Like, is there any way to
get a copy of this out-of-print baby?

ANY hewlp would be appreciated.  Thanks..

Christian Walters
dcwalter@dcw.b23b.ingr.com

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Brin: Galactic Library
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:51:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.195206.28701@coe.montana.edu> uphrrmk@terra.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote) writes:
> Also of note is the tanstaafl principle. Just 'cause they COULD give us all
>knowledge, don't mean they're GONNA.  Earth is mentioned as being in debt for
>what they have, they may not be able to afford the royalties.

Earth and the Terragens is in hock in _Sundiver_.  It's unclear that
this is still the case in the later books.  There's that little matter
of indemnities paid by the Pil and/or Soro Clan to cover up gross
misbehavior and abuse of power by a certain Librarian....  If that
isn't enough, there's a full Library left behind by the Gubru in
_Uplift_ war, plus a complete Hypershunt suitable for stage Ceremonies
and the Thenanin interested in seeing that suitable indemnities are
paid for damage done, plus whatever the Thenanin pay to get full
access to the "Garthling" genepool data....

I really don't think the Terrgens is all *that* poor.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rsholmes@rodan.syr.EDU (Rich 'mcmxciibo' Holmes)
Subject: Re: Pratchett:  Witches Abroad
In-reply-to: dani@netcom.com's message of Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:28:19 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University
	<1993Jan25.202819.5653@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 23:21:51 EST

In article <1993Jan25.202819.5653@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>Pratchett's latest Discworld novel, "Witches Abroad" is here...

And as usual the cover illustration is riddled with inaccuracies, one
of the, um, largest of which is Magrat's endowment... looks like
roughly 38" or so, whereas in the book they had to pad Emberella's
gown to put Magrat in it.

My theory is that the artist simply misinterpreted the book's title. 

<rim shot>

--
- Rich "mcmxciibo" Holmes
"Grown men, he told himself, in flat contradiction of centuries of
accumulated evidence about the way grown men behave, do not behave
like this." -- Douglas Adams
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: Niven/Pournelle, continued
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:55:32 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <C1B54s.2IG@brunel.ac.uk> mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>>Wow! All these different Niven male/female disparity thingies going on, and
>>nobody mentioned the Grendels, where the females (those are the big, ugly
>>dragon critters) _eat_ the males (being the samlon - no, i didn't misspell
>>that, read the book) and are _much_ more intelligent, agressive, etc.

>Sorry, the adults of both sexes eat the young, of both sexes.  Read the book.

Sorry, I did.  You're wrong.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written