HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: A Pair of Hair Queries
Followup-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: AEGIS
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:35:58 GMT

In article <BxD4CM.H7r@world.std.com>, heatherz@world.std.com (Heather E
Zahn) wrote:
> 
> I've got a couple of questions for anyone who would care to answer:
> 
> 1. What do you do about (head) hair? Whenever I went out wearing a
> wig, I felt like I might as well have been going out wearing a large
> sign that read, "I'M A TRANSVESTITE!!!". Since then I've grown my hair
> to where it's really pretty long. By day I tie it back in a pony tail
> and disguise myself as a hippie by wearing Grateful Dead shirts and
> saying "dude" a lot. What do other people do?
> 
> 2. Roughly how many hours of electrolysis does it take to remove one's
> beard? I know it probably varies a lot, so I'm just looking for a ballpark
> figure. This seems like the next step for me, and I'm wondering what
> kind of time and money commitments I'm looking at.
> 
> Thanks to all,
> 
> Heather
> 
Answers:

1. Get your hair styled and then get a good permenent. I saw one TV do
just that. Poney tail as male. Rolled and styled as a woman. Oh,
you will have to learn how to roll your hair. You will also learn the
joys of sleeping on rollers. Try hot rollers.

2. 100-200 hours with 150 average.

Love and hugs,

Celeste
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:28:49 GMT

haker@yar.cs.wisc.edu (Mike Haker) writes:

>In many ways I feel the same way.  But I think the difference is that
>we do not have any resistence to getting rid of them.  Almost every
>guy I talk to, has an almost biological 'knee-jerk' reaction to the
>thought of losing their balls.

I have run into a small number who don't have this sort of reaction.
These are the type of people I can out myself to.  (In addition to the
readers of this group, I have outed myself to my main circle of
friends in email and to about four people in direct face-to-face
confrontation).

>Again, I am the same, and unfortunately this made my shrink label me
>the same way, and said I was not 'an appropriate candidate for gender
>reassignment'.  I still feel there is more to my feelings than just
>trying to explain away a fetish. I have no doubt that my feelings of
>gender dysphoria are real and that I am a female inside who happens
>to have male genitalia.  Right now I am able to live with this
>apparent contradiction.

I am afraid that I'll get saddled with a series of incompetent
counselors who will not recognize my feelings or try to explain them
as something they are not.  I am not a fetishistic crossdresser.
Wearing SEXY clothes is arousing; wearing feminine clothes is not.

Right now I am feeling very feminine (thanks to a long talk with a
friend and a very nice cuddle with another friend), and I must say it
feels *great*.  I just wish the feelings could last... but before long
the reality of my assigned sex will invade and end this great feeling
(it's already doing so, *sigh*).

Kelly
--
Oh, a vegetarian, eh?  Well, at my house, even the plants eat meat.
	-- David A. Honig (honig@thalia.ics.uci.edu)
From: hackbod@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Date: 18 Nov 1992 06:14:31 GMT
Organization: Buried on the floor somewhere.
NNTP-Posting-Host: xanth.cs.orst.edu

ah340@yfn.ysu.edu (Michelle Fiera) writes:
>
>How did your friends react? I've thought of outing myself to my friends
>from H.S. and I'm not sure quite how they'd handle it...
>

I've come out to most of my good friends from High School.  So far,
the absolute worst responses I've had was one who said "I don't know
if I can handle this, but our friendship is important enough for me to
try" and My Mormon Friend who said "I have to let you know that I
don't approve of this, but you should do whatever you feel is best."

The other responses included...

a friend who said that she wasn't planning on going to our school
reunion... but if I went she would definately go...

a friend who told me about being in one of her psychology classes
where the professor briefly mentioned transsexualism - mostly that it
was rare and he had never met one - and she wanted to jump up and tell
everyone that she knew a TS...

and my only male friend [Matt] from High School, who at one point told
me he thought this was "kind of neat" and that he was looking forward
to it.

Of course, these weren't their first response - that was almost always
a combination between shock, wondering if I was joking, and having no
idea what to say.  [And I usually had no idea what to say either...
I've found that for me it's best to first tell someone enough to
convince them that I'm not joking and then give them a few days to
think about and get used to it.]  In fact, Matt told me later on that
he was really depressed for about a month after I told him and that he
had felt like I had died. :(  I think the worst part about telling
people is how difficult it is on _them_.

I think the biggest surprise through telling all of these people was
finding out just what wonderful friends I have. :) :) :)


-- 
Dianne Kyra Hackborn            The healthy .sig:
hackbod@xanth.cs.orst.edu     - Low in saturated quotes
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne      - No artificial disclaimers
Oregon State University       - 99% splat free
From: ap.6443@cupid.sai.com (Michelle Fiera)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:35:09 GMT
Organization: Rice University

In article <1992Nov16.034118.20981@cs.wisc.edu> you write:
>In article <Bxs1tq.8AM@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Michelle Fiera <ap.6443@cupid.sai.com> writes:
>>
>>This makes 3 of us.  The recent conflict going through my head has
>>been whether or not the fact that I'm ocassionally sexually aroused
>>while wearing women's clothes means I'm therefore not a TS.  I've 
>>finally determined that who or what I get sexually aroused by is
>>completely distinct from my gender identity. All
>>these discussions really are great!  I hadn't talked to anyone about
>>any of these feelings until about a week and a half ago, and I've
>>already learned so much about myself..
>I guess I'm number 4.  Another conflict I have with the current psychological
>perspective is not just that gender identity is not linked to sexual
>arousal, but that sexual orientation is not linked to sexual identity.  
>While this is obvious to the non-TS (its called homosexuality), the
>psychologists (well mine at least) feel that I should be attracted to
>men and not women if i'm a m->f TS.  I'm bi with a leaning to women.
>I guess that would make me a lesbian traped in a man's body?!

I kind of resemble that remark.  I've never found men very physically
attractive, I've always found women more physically attractive and still
do.  What I do find attractive is the idea of being with a man as a woman,
more than any specific man himself.  That's been the limit to my bisexuality
so far.  Of course it could just be that I haven't met the right man yet, but
even if it isn't - who cares?  It's perfectly possible to be a TS and a 
lesbian.  A certain percentage of the population is born TS, and a certain
percentage is born lesbian (this percentage would be even higher among TSs
if there are any social factors involved in homosexuality - as we were all
socialized to be attracted to the gender opposite to our bodies), so it
follows quite easily that there should exist lesbian TSs.  

*hugs*
Michelle

email adress:  ap6443@cupid.sai.com

-- 
I don't think that "society" _knows_ if a person is a virgin or not.  It's not
like they have a neon sign flashing on their forehead or something.
		-- Jennifer Brindle (jbrindle@mdd.comm.mit.com), talk.abortion
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
	<1992Nov16.032006.20240@cs.wisc.edu>
	<1992Nov18.003027.24648@news.ysu.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:09:16 GMT

ah340@yfn.ysu.edu (Michelle Fiera) writes:

>How did your friends react? I've thought of outing myself to my
>friends from H.S. and I'm not sure quite how they'd handle it...

Well, the ones I outed myself to in person were pretty reasonable.
One (the male) is going to mail me a list of TG-themed fiction (he's a
literary nut) and thinks it's all very interesting and is quite
fascinated by it.  The other (female) didn't seem to react that
noticably, and while I think she thinks I'm weird she still talks to
me. :)  

No comments from anybody regarding my comments in email yet.

Kelly
--
You all look like happy campers to me.  Happy campers you are, happy
campers you have been, and, as far as I am concerned, happy campers you
will always be.
		-- Vice President Dan Quayle, Pago Pago, American Samoa
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: cddukes@c00508-119rd.eos.ncsu.edu (PakRat's Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Troubled
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:53:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.042100.24824@nuscc.nus.sg> ipacs@solomon.technet.sg (IPACS PTE LTD) writes:
>
[A flight of fancy that makes you wonder just what drugs are legal in 
singapoore DELETED]

Wonderful flight of fancy there...  If I hadn't seen that I would have
thought that my week was going to be long dull and boring.

In the future such items really belong in alt.sex.trans.  (Well they
don't if they make the papers, but we know how that goes.)

Chris/Kristine________________________________________cddukes@eos.ncsu.edu
30 Million people aren't wrong -- LSD is a mind opening experience.
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Wrong Surgery
Date: 21 Nov 92 19:28:16 GMT
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI

In article <1992Nov21.035006.15773@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, icarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Iona Carter) writes:

> I could handle it .... it would solve 70% of my problems :
>
>Hi mum! Hi dad! Yes its me ... There was this mistake at the hospital ....

>Seriously though, how do people handle their parents and other family? I know
>that my parents would always love me what ever I did, but they would think of 
>THEMSELVES as have failed completely. This just is not true, they have always
>done the right things, and I am proud to be their daughter (son as they would
>see it). They are both committed Christians (so am I) and it would completely
>blow their world apart, my mother once told me her views on Transsexuals :
>
>   "I feel a great deal of sympaty for them, it must be terrible having to
>    go through all that, just to get to where you believe you should have
>    started ... and they would miss out on so much not having seen child-
>    hood from their "correct" perspective.
>      But if someone suggested that one of my sons was that way inclined,
>    I would probably punch their lights out (or words to that effect)".
>
>  The circumstance giving rise to this was the arrival of a letter addressed
>to me but as Miss not Mr., which turned out to be a brochure from an SRS
>clinic I had sent for. Mother phoned the clinic and said that someone had 
>obviously faked a letter from me. The clinic said that this sort of thing 
>annoyed them too and they would send a copy of the letter (!) to us. Only 
>some frantic phone calls to them prevented a potential disaster, they rang 
>back and told my mother that it had been a telephone enquiry (phew!)

Yah I'm still living with mom & dad too.  So I pick up all my gender-oriented
mail at the post office.

>  So (simplistically speaking) I have four choices:
>
>    1) Tell me parents, seek reassignment. The would shatter their lives.
>    2) Dissappear, seek SRS. This would also shatter their lives.
>    3) Remain an unhappy male. This would semi-ruin my life.
>    4) Compromise. Live away, CD, get electrolysis, (hormones?) etc. but
>       disguise myself as male when visiting them or vice versa.

#4 might work if what you are aiming for is some kind of androgyny.  And even
then is viable only if you are fortunate enough to be gainfully employed
somewhere where the civil liberties situation is much better than average.  Or
you are willing to live on the margins of society.

Might be the right thing for you.  I have a need to go all the way.  I think a
partial fix would only heighten the frustration.  Choices for me are 1 & 3, with
feasability or otherwise of 1 clinching the decision.

World-wide *hugs* from

Lori? Walt?
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Tough questions.
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
	cc.purdue.edu> <SCG.92Nov15171945@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<1992Nov15.193705.2579@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:33:48 GMT

CHOI@dirac.physics.jmu.edu (Kara Choi) writes:

>I know what you mean ... for years I maintained a fascination with
>crossgender stuff, but never actually did anything about it.  It was
>not until recently that I actually thought seriously about it (after
>I started CDing) and going to a counselor to talk about my possible
>TSism.

I've not CDed extensively at all.  Nonetheless, I am finding an
increasingly strong feeling of being a woman trapped in a man's body
(to use a rather trite phrase).  Combined with a lack of a childhood
history of TS feelings I may well find myself up against a wall in
getting proper consideration for how I feel.

The problem I have is that I know how I feel, but I have no idea how
to convince the right people of it.

>It certainly makes a good case against my being a TS to not have the
>background of CDing from a young age :(

Yeah, me too.  *sigh*

*hugs*

Kelly
--
Oh, a vegetarian, eh?  Well, at my house, even the plants eat meat.
	-- David A. Honig (honig@thalia.ics.uci.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,soc.college.grad,comp.org.acm,misc.int-property
From: tenney@netcom.com (Glenn S. Tenney)
Subject: Re: host an RMS talk
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:52:49 GMT

Considering that there are other views on this very
important subject, I HOPE that you will be having
someone join rms to take the opposite side (or
at least a moderate position).


-- 
Glenn Tenney
voice: (415) 574-3420      fax: (415) 574-0546
tenney@netcom.com          Ham radio: AA6ER
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: thornley@mega.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: [UPI] "FBI probes computer child porn at Cornell"
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:57:21 GMT

In article <Nov.22.20.51.11.1992.20989@inferno.rutgers.edu> gaynor@inferno.rutgers.edu (Silver) writes:
>UPI writes:
>> The FBI is investigating whether a Cornell University sophomore has
>> transmitted child pornography over computer bulletin boards, a report said
>> Friday.
>Washington DC!  Listen up!  Give the FBI more important things to do!
>
Child pornography is important not because it is pornography but because
it is....
>> material involving sexual exploitation of minors
>I'll bet they're payed a hell of a lot more than Ronald McD would pay 'em.
>
Well, that's a callous attitude.  Working for McDonald's is not known to
cause serious psychological problems throughout life.

>> Netnews
>That's "Usenet" or "UseNet", not "Netnews".
>
Actually, it probably isn't Usenet, technically, it's probably a.b.p.e or
some such alt group.  Now that you've shown you don't quite understand it,
do you expect UPI to have a clue?  Actually, you should be hoping they
get it wrong; if university or company administrators conclude that there
is something called Netnews that distributes child porn, don't you want
to be able to tell them that Usenet is actually something different and
shouldn't get the axe?

>> In 1988, graduate student Robert Morris Jr. was convicted and fined $10,000
>> for launching a computer ``worm,'' which also destroys software but differs
>> from a virus in that it is self-perpetuating.
>THE PERSECUTION OF MORRIS WAS UNJUSTIFIED (and I _hate_ using all-caps for
>emphasis).  It was his graduate project in computer risks and security.  Given
>the worm's tenacity, the likelihood of its accidental release is high enough to
>believe that its release _was_ accidental.  Regardless, it did nothing more
>than propagate itself.  Many consider his worm a good thing.
>
Many considered his worm to be annoying and costly, since it brought
numerous systems to their knees for a day or more.  Would you be quite
so understanding if a microbiology student's graduate project accidentally
escaped and caused everybody in a medium-sized city to have the equivalent
of a severe cold?  Morris did write a vicious worm, and it did get out
somehow, and caused the loss of thousands or millions of dollars of
computer and human time.  Exactly what should the reaction have been?

>This country (USA) is pissing me off.
>
At least we have people who will check publicly available sources now and
then for evidence of felonies, rather than ignoring the possibility.  Do
they do things differently in Finland?

DHT

Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [news.admin.misc]  Re: ALERT RE POSTINGS AND CORNELL ACCESS TO ALT.*.*.EROTICA HIERARCHY
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,news.admin.misc
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 04:07:44 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: news.admin.misc
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject:  Re: ALERT RE POSTINGS AND CORNELL ACCESS TO ALT.*.*.EROTICA HIERARCHY
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:18:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.202832.1951@mail.cornell.edu> M. Stuart Lynn <msl1@cornell.edu> writes:
>ALERT ON POSTINGS TO AND CORNELL ACTION REGARDING
>ALT.BINARIES.PICTURES.EROTICA
>
  First of all, is this a joke? A forgery? Or do you just like sounding
like a paranoid fool in public?

>It has come to my attention that certain pictures encoded as GIF files
>are circulating on the NetNews newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica
>(a.b.p.e) whose transmission may constitute violations of the United
>States Code regarding sexual exploitation of minors, in particular
>Section 2252. These pictures depict unclothed young children displayed in
>a manner that could be construed as constituting sexually explicit
>conduct as defined in the Code.

    What articles specifically are you refering to? I have asked over and
over and over for real examples, and none have been forthcoming. I personally
have seen no images that could be construed as you describe. I don't claim
to have seen everything posted to that group.

>Effective immediately, Cornell's official newstand will no longer provide
>access to the a.b.p.e, hierarchy at least until we can ascertain that
>there has been no violation of the law.
>
   Do you apply this standard to your bookstore, or your library? Wow,
academic freedom in action. Zow!

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,alt.dreams
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: [alt.dreams] McElwaine's postings (was Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS, and Dreams)
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:11:14 GMT

Charles J. Brenner, Director Computing and Networking Services writes:

[...]
>      I would request that a copy of any correspondence with
> Mr. McElwaine be also sent to me at CBRENNER@UWEC.EDU.   If,
> after being requested to stop, he continues to send his
> materials The University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire will take
> steps revoke his Internet privileges.
[...]

I assume that such steps would respect Mr. McElwaine's due process
rights. But I worry, since explusion from a communications medium is
not a typical univeristy sanction. (Typical sanctions include things
like informal warnings, formal warnings, university suspensions.)

I note that labeling Internet access a "privilege" does not remove
due process requirements.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

(All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.)

=================
faq/due-process
=================
* Due Process
 
q: Should users be suspended from the computer pending formal discipline?
 
a: No, with one exception. Just as students should not be expelled from
...

=================
=================

If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command
   gopher gopher.eff.org

These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/faq/due-process

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom/faq due-process
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [alt.censorship]  Re: Sex Censorship
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,alt.censorship
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 21:29:18 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: alt.censorship
From: Reader <Reader@cornell.edu>
Subject:  Re: Sex Censorship
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:42:49 GMT

In article <apohl.722154508@unixg.ubc.ca> Derrick Pohl,
apohl@unixg.ubc.ca writes:
>Recently all sex-related newsgroups have been banned from the usenet here
>at the University of British Columbia. 

Cornell just shut all of these down yesterday.  Seems someone here was
posting kiddie porn. Made the national news.  I wonder what they were
majoring in?
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Xref: sparky alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:3448 news.admin.policy:552 comp.admin.policy:1532 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d:9360
From: alien@clinet.fi (Risto Juvonen)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,news.admin.policy,comp.admin.policy,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
Subject: Re: [UPI] "FBI probes computer child porn at Cornell"
Date: 22 Nov 1992 11:27:32 +0200
Organization: Clinet, Espoo, Finland.
NNTP-Posting-Host: clinet.fi

kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
: Copyright 1992 by UPI. Reposted with permission from the ClariNet
: Electronic Newspaper newsgroup clari.tw.computers, et al. For more
: info on ClariNet, write to info@clarinet.com or phone 1-800-USE-NETS.
: 
: 	ITHACA, N.Y. (UPI) -- The FBI is investigating whether a Cornell
: University sophomore has transmitted child pornography over computer
: bulletin boards, a report said Friday.
: 	The New York Times said agents this week raided a student's room as
: part of an investigation that began Nov. 11, after the administrator of
: another bulletin board told the Ivy League university of seeing material
: involving sexual exploitation of minors.
: 	The name of the student had not been released because he had not yet
: been charged with any crime.
: 	Agents said they were checking to see whether the student used
: graphics imaging technology to copy the pornographic photos onto
: computer files and transmitted them on Netnews, an internationally used
: bulletin board.
: 	The investigation is the third in the past four years centered on
: abuse of Cornell's computer system.

 huh, I'm very pleased that I'm living in Finland, our "secret police"
has better things to do with taxpayers money that they would waste
time for investigating pornography. And, they could not even do that:
pornography is not enough big crime that they can do house search.
Nice to live in _free_ country! Sorry for you, U.S. citizens...

 alien