From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Subject: Re: Snakes and Dogs
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:50:58 GMT

In article <45780@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Marla Belzowski (K-9's)) writes:
= 
= I visited CO about 8 years ago.  On a tour, we were told repeatedly
= not to wander off the boardwalks because rattle snakes are very

Rattlesnakes are common throughout the southwest; although less so
at higher altitudes they do sometimes appear higher than one may
expect.

= common in the brush.  Usualy snakes won't bother you, but if you walk
= up on them or step on them, your asking for it.  Dogs don't

Generally true.  A common problem (for people) is sticking their
hands (or feet) places where they can't see--e.g. hand-holds for
climbing, etc.  Dogs, of course, simply explore everything and
anything so...

= relized this so they usually do charge up on them or grab them.
= Many dogs grab snakes and shake them like crazy, but they can get
= bit doing this.
= 
= >   What do you do when your dog is bitten by a snake?  Is there
= >   a snake kit for dogs? 
= 
= Yes, I believe there is in the RC Steele catalog, or probably local
= vets will have some if rattlers are common in the area.

I recommend discussing this with your vet ahead of time.  I believe
that some {dogs, people, ...} have an adverse reaction to antivenin
that may be worse than the snakebite.  That said, another place to
look is the Foster & Smith catalog--they carry a variety of
veterinary medications.

= With all snake bite victoms it is better not to allow any activity.
= If the venom is in the blood stream, vigorus walking will spread it
= quicker through the body.  Rattlesnake venoms work on the nervouse
= system or muscles (I can remember right now) so activity will
= just spead it faster to the heart and brain.  It is better to

Of the half dozen or so poisonous snakes in the US, only the coral
snake is neurotoxic the rest are hemotoxic--is that the word?  Now
that I've typed it...  I'm pretty sure that's correct.

= keep them still and quiet.  Also, I believe I read in a DogWorld

Yes!  But again, ask a good vet experienced with snake bite if
possible.  If you are way out somewhere and the dog gets bitten and
you can't carry it, you are kind of between a rock and a hard place
for you can't very well get veterinary attention there.

Fortunately, for dogs that large, the effect of the snake bite is
likely to be less serious than with a smaller dog (*all else being
equal--e.g. no allergic reaction to the venom, etc.*) so at least
that much is in your favor.

Remember that with people there are typically more problems with
complications from *botched* attempts at first aid than from snake
bite.  I would be surprised if this isn't true for dogs as well.
The point is, if you plan to use either antivenin or a snake-bite
kit, *learn to do it right* or you may do more harm than good.

= once about how to snake proof your dog.  This is one of the
= ONLY reasons I would use an electric shock collar.  The
= main idea was to find either a dead or a de-fanged rattler.
= Hide it in a bush and then put the electric collar on your dog.
= allow the dog to rush up and grab at the snake.  The instant they
= grab it or step at it, you give them a good shock with the collar.
= Don't say anything.  Make the dog think the cause of their pain is
= the snake and they will learn snakes are nasty things not to be
= touched.  You'll probbly only have to do this once or twice.

In my opinion, snake proofing is the way to go.

There are other methods as well.

My first comment is that my understanding is that it is *not*
necessary to use a poisonous snake to do so.  I have only other
peoples word for this but most references that I've come across
claim, essentially, that a snake is a snake is a snake...  Most use
some large, nonpoisonous snake such as a bull snake.

One comment about Marla's description:  If the snake is live, you
need some way to confine it.  You want to be sure that it is the
*snake* that your dog is interested in, not a ground squirrel or a
mouse.  Else you'll end up rodent proofing your dog and it still
won't be snake proofed.

Another, perhaps more important, comment:  Don't assume that, just
because it is dead, a poisonous snake isn't dangerous.  The poison
sacs are still full of venom, the fangs are still there and the
mechanical linkage is such that should you or your dog snag a fang
into your body, it will pull the fang into the position to inject
venom and it *will* do so.  Use a bull snake.

= I think it would be preferable to my dogs to get a few uncomfortable
= shocks then to get poisoned by a snake bite.

Indeed, yes!

Here are a couple of other possibilities to consider vis-a-vis
snake proofing your dog.

Within the past couple of years there was an article about a
different technique for snake proofing dogs in the gun dog column
of Quail Unlimited magazine.  The column is "About Dogs" by Steve
Rafe.  I don't recall the more specific subtitle but it should be
obvious if you see it.  In this article, he recommends using just
enough syrup of ipecac (as I recall) to make your dog become sick a
precisely known time after administering it.  The idea is to set up
your dog so that the medication will make it sick *precisely* at
the moment that it encounters the target snake (again a bull snake
or the like) so that the dog becomes convince that the snake made
it sic.  I haven't tried this method so I don't know how well it
works.  CAVEAT:  the technique, as described, relies on use of a
precise amount of the medication *as determined by your vet*, the
precise arrangement of the rest of the setup including how and how
soon the dog encounters the snake, etc.  *DON'T* try to use this
description to do it--see the original article or contact Rafe for
more information.

Finally, I took Kate to a snake proofing session offered by an
obedience school in Albuquerque.  (And, I really must take her for
a refresher.)  I'll try to describe the approach there as best I
remember it--it was two or three years ago.  At the end of this
(I'll append the address/phone info for the place in case they may
be able to recommend others who offer the service elsewhere or
describe it more completely than I can.)

At the session that I attended, a shock collar was used only on a
big aggressive dog--I don't recall the breed, perhaps a Rottweiler
or a Dobermann.  All the rest simply used standard choke-chains.
All of the dogs were walked--on lead but not at heel--around the
perimeter of the training ring.  The trainer moved about more or
less in the center of the ring holding a very large bull snake.
We had been told that, more or less, at random, he would lunge at
some dog(s) and that, immediately, we were to do a "snatch
correction" ("pop correction"), act frightened and run away from
the snake *not giving *ANY* command*.  Avoidance of giving a
command was strongly emphasized.  The idea was that between the
handlers acting frightened--including, perhaps, a small scream?--
and the pinch of the choke chain at the instant the snake was
pushed at the dog, would transfer that fear to the dog.  That of
course is the essence of snake proofing: to make the dog deathly
afraid of snakes.  Well, that isn't a very good description.  As I
said, it's been two or three years.  It seemed to work quite well.
It is recommended that this process be repeated several times.

Well, I hope this is of some help to some of you.  Here is the info
on both Steve Rafe (the make the dog sick method) and Acoma Kennels
(the choke-chain correction method).  Check with them for
additional information--my memory is drained.  (Or check back
issues of Quail Unlimited magazine for Rafe's method.)

Steve Rafe--STARFIRE
P. O. Box 3119, Dept. QU
Warrenton, VA  22186
703-349-1039

Acoma Pet Ctr & Kennels
321 Wyoming, SE,
Albuquerque, NM
1-505-268-3391



-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov