HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Wolf Summit in Alaska
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 09:18:29 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1992Dec18.154310.18588@samba.oit.unc.edu> london@sunSITE.unc.edu writes:

 > In article <1992Dec18.123642.531@nstn.ns.ca> dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca writes:
 >  
 > You again, eh Don. I thought you might be better than to support Hardwick's
 > inane, pointless babbling. He's not an agriculture person, he's just a BS'er
 > and a troublemaker. 
 >  
 > >reading this newsgroup since its creation, and in my opinion, Mr. Hardwick
 > >has contributed substantially to the discussion.
 >  
 > About as substantially as you, and that's substantially insignificant,
 > wasteful of bandwidth and conterproductive.
 >  
 > Killfiles are an effective way of dealing with malicious idiots like you
 > and Hardwick. 

Oh dear me, Mr London, substantial discussion presented by you here
on sustainable agriculture, NOT.

About the level of your e-mail messages.

 > >`venom and vitriol' expressed on all sides that is preventing the 
 > >powers that be from taking a clear direction... they read things like the
 >  
 > We are the powers that be. Maybe someday that might include you as well.

Not here you aren't, pal. If you wish to restrict your private little
kingdom to your own part of North America, please do so. Having it fed
under the guise of an Internet forum on sustainable agriculture into
the research networks of some 72 other countries is not our idea of
power. Perhaps your own idea, of course, but definitely nobody else's.

 > You obviously have read little of what I and many others have posted here.
 > Get a life.
 > As I said before you're not qualified to make informed decisions about the
 > value of sustainable farming practices since you've not bothered to educate
 > yourself on the subject.

Yes we read it, and as such neither I, nor I understand Don Christie
have had any problems with it as such. The conflict quite plainly arose
when we in our turn wished to post discussion here, to be subject to
some of the most egregious nonsense from yourself and others I have not
experienced since my fresher year at University.

 > This mindless garbage of yours clearly shows you to be a complete fool.

Well, this fool shall stay here posting to his own country's research
forum, as Mr Christie himself I believe is posting to his own country's
network. You can disconnect and take your garden hoe with you any time
you can no longer keep up with an international standard of debate on
global issues affecting all of us.

Just let us know when you get your silly kill-file sorted out so we
can resume our discussions.

--
Gil Hardwick                          Internet:  gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au
Consulting Ethnologist                              Fidonet:  3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                         Voice:  (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Subject: Job Opportunity, SCS (from SANET-MG)
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:12:13 GMT

From: a16jberc@attmail.com
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:30:03 GMT
To: sanet-mg@oes.orst.edu
Forwarded message:
Date: Tue Dec 22 20:17:00 GMT 1992
From: hqads01!hqecs00!jberc
To: Jeri L BERC <!a16jberc>

The Soil Conservation Service has announced a Vacancy for an
Interdisciplinary Pest Management Specialist, located in
Washington DC.  This position is open to all sources.  The
salary range is $46,210-$70,987.  The closing date for
applications is January 18, 1993.  There will be another
similar announced vacancy for a Nutrient Management
Specialist.  Contact Suzette Cunningham 202 720-0655 for
administrative information and Wil Fontenot 202 720-4909 for
technical information.


Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: dave@whoville.manassas.ibm.com ()
Subject: need advice for converting to organic methods
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 15:17:10 GMT
Reply-To: irby@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Company

Hello all, Hope you don't mind me interrupting the flame-fest to ask for some 
advice... :-)

  My wife and I have just taken over a garden plot from her parents on which 
we raise vegetables for local Farmer's markets.  We are attempting to convert 
to organic methods (and managed to avoid pesticides this year although we 
did use chemical fertilizers).  We tried using a straw mulch around most of our
crops (mostly tomatoes and peppers) instead of the black plastic her parents had
always used before.  We had horrible slug problems (they chewed holes in most 
of our tomatoes).  It was an especially cool, wet year for us and that might 
have been the major cause of our problems.  

  I have recently been wondering if we might have caused some of the problem
by growing indeterminate tomatoes without any sort of supports (we just let
them sprawl on the ground).  I was wondering if we would be better off 
growing determinate varieties (hopefully they would support themselves better
and keep the tomatoes out of the reach of slugs)??  I have also thought about 
trying to build some sort of trellis system but we really can't afford the time
to stake the tomatoes and keep tying them up in the traditional fashion.  
Does anyone have any advice for a cheap trellis that the plants could/would 
basically just climb on their own??

  I had thought that an angled trellis might work

               /|
              / |
             /  |

  such that the plants just naturally fell over on it.

  Has anyone else tried this - if so so you have any advice for the dimensions
that work best??

Thanks for any help you can offer,

-- 
David Irby   irby@vnet.ibm.com

Dammit Jim! - All ideas and opinions expressed herein are my own.
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: O.M. changes using Cs-137
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:44:53 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Dec24.123441.16578@nstn.ns.ca> dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca writes:
>
>Cs 137 is Cesium-137... a radioisotope. There is a guy who works for 
>Agriculture Canada who has used a device of this type... I don't think he
>reads the USENET, so I have forwarded your previous post to him via email.
>
>I'll pass along whatever comes of it.
>
Many thanks.
BTW are you aware of the edible seaweed industry in Nova Scotia? A
vendor I know of harvests DULSE from the rocks at Grand Mannan (sp?)
and sells it in the U.S. via mail order. It's quite tasty and very 
nutritious; it has a thin purplish leaf, slightly salty; excellent
in soup, esp. miso soup; also great as a snack.

london@sunsite.unc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca (Don Christie)
Subject: Re: Leaf Protein
Reply-To: dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca
Organization: Nova Scotia Agricultural College, Nova Scotia, CANADA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 13:10:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.220131.16976@samba.oit.unc.edu>, london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) writes:
>In article <1hk12uINNkha@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano) writes:
>>
>>
>>I am interested in finding current studies on the subject
>>of leaf protein and its extraction.
>>This is for use as food for humans not a protein merely
>>for research purposes.
>>Various works by Pirie in England have discussed this but
>>I cannot find much in the last two or three years.
>>I am wondering if research is continuing in this area.
>>This has application as a food supplement for developing
>>countries and perhaps as health food supplement here.

I worked as a summer research assistant a few years back... a graduate 
student was working on a project very similar to what you describe... she
was extracting the protein from red clover mixtures using a wild-looking
machine to shred and press the juice out of the material. She wound up with
a greenish mixture which she fermented in jars. In a few days the protein
content of the mixture would congeal in a mass at the top. This was dried,
and the result was a brownish crystalline substance that consisted of mostly
protein. 

As I recall, the intent was to use this protein as a supplement for
swine ration. Although the fermenting mixture was a vile substance, the
resulting protein was not at all unpleasant... it smelled (and tasted)
a lot like OXO cubes (you know, the stuff you put in soups).

The name of the graduate student was Sherry Fillmore, and as I recall, she
was getting her Masters degree from McGill University in Montreal. I found
it an interesting project, but I never heard the outcome... whether the
protein thus produced panned out as a feed supplement etc.


//Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who ELSE could have written The Adventures of Wild Bill Groady??
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca (Don Christie)
Subject: Re: O.M. changes using Cs-137
Reply-To: dc_ags@ac.nsac.ns.ca
Organization: Nova Scotia Agricultural College, Nova Scotia, CANADA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 12:45:22 GMT

>Many thanks.
>BTW are you aware of the edible seaweed industry in Nova Scotia? A
>vendor I know of harvests DULSE from the rocks at Grand Mannan (sp?)
>and sells it in the U.S. via mail order. It's quite tasty and very 
>nutritious; it has a thin purplish leaf, slightly salty; excellent
>in soup, esp. miso soup; also great as a snack.

Yes, indeedy. Dulse is something you learn to like... it is good dried,
in soups etc. It intrigues me a bit to have someone ask about this particular
product, though. It's unheard of farther inland.... same as a herb we
call `summer savoury'.... (used in turkey dressing). It's readily available
here but nowhere else in the country. It grows wild, and it really makes
a dressing, but for some reason it hasn't caught on in other parts.


//Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who ELSE could have written The Adventures of Wild Bill Groady??
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Composting
Date: 26 Dec 1992 08:42:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



Here are some notes on composting that may be of interest:
The composting process involves a combination of bacteria, 
fungi and protozoa.  One bacterial culture prepares the 
organic matter for the next bacterial culture to process.
This is known as syntrophy or synergy.

Some of the nutrients or macronutrients needed in composting
in larger amounts are carbon and nitrogen.  Intermediate
nutrients are phosphorous, sulfur, calcium and potassium.

The micronutrients include cobalt, magnesium, manganese, 
iron, copper, molybdenum, etc.  These micronutrients are
especially needed by enzymes involved in the composting
process.
Using fallen leaves only for composting creates two 
problems: the carbon to nitrogen ratio is too high and
the surface of the leaves tends to resist entry by
bacteria cultures.  One choice is to shred the leaves
and add a source of nitrogen such as grass clippings
or manure.  Layering is important since too dense or
thick an amount of grass clippings or manure can
create too much heat and burning.
On the other hand, if carbon is too low in relation to
nitrogen, such as a compost pile of manure and barn
bedding including straw or sawdust, then the process
is impeded.  Such a pile will generate large amounts
of ammonia which can be temporarily toxic to plant
roots if added directly to crops.  
Generally the optimum carbon to nitrogen ratio for
effective composting is about 35:1.  A compost with
a carbon to nitrogen ratio of less than 20:1 will
give off surplus heat as well as create alkalinity
with pH above 7.


-- 
Capt. Kirk: let's head for that planet, third from the sun, it
            looks promising.... |-)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: gail@pmafire.inel.gov (Gail Olson)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 23:15:02 GMT
Organization: WINCO
Subject: O.M. changes using Cs-137
Distribution: na

I would like to get some information on the use of Cs-137 to measure
changes in the organic matter of agricultural soils.  I have read that
it is inexpensive and could be easily incorporated into environmental
monitoring programs.  References would be appreciated.
gail@pmafire.inel.gov

-- 
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: kyoder@vines.colostate.edu (Ken Yoder)
Subject: Re: Wolf Summit in Alaska
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:25:19 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University

>On the other hand, as I cease receiving the types of outburst against
>constant pleas for common sense here, I am afraid it is very much the
>case of when in Rome, do as the Romans do. At any time the people at
>your end decide to just get off the abusive attacks against anyone who
>seeks to ask questions here, and back on track toward a substantive
>debate on sustainable agriculture, the sooner the better as far as I
>am concerned.
>
I AGREE!!  All this "flaming" and personal attacks is NOT what I was looking 
for in this group!  I had hoped for intelectual discussion on topics 
concerning sustainable agriculture.  I don't mind an occasional post from 
someone seeking to make us aware of certain situations we might have 
interest in, but I DO NOT like continual flaming and personal attacks 
because of them.  LET THIS THREAD DIE!  Otherwise many of us will put this 
group at the same level as ALT.BAD.JOKES!

Ken Yoder
kyoder@lamar.colostate.edu
From: pearlste@esvax.dnet.dupont.com
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: (none)
Date: 31 Dec 92 13:22:16 GMT

subscribe
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: New Gardening Books (crosspost from rec.gardens)
Date: 1 Jan 93 05:21:10 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

Article 12676 (59 more) in rec.gardens:
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Subject: Books, etc.
Date: 31 Dec 92 22:45:41 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Just got through browsing the Pinetree Garden Seed Catalog over lunch
[I was supposed to be editing my syllabi, but I'd sooner be thinking
gardens ;-) ]  and was pleased to notice that most of their seed prices
are holding fairly steady, in the $0.50-$0.60 range.

This is not meant as a testimonial, and I have no connection to the 
company except as a satisfied customer, but I've always found them to
be truthful about their merchandise, and the seed quality quite good.

However, they _also_ carry books and tools, and I noticed a few book bargains
I thought I'd mention on the net... they appeal to my tight-fisted soul! ;-)

How about the 1978 edition of _The Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening_ for
$16.98?  (The new edition is $30).  Or Reddell & Galyean's _Growing Fragrant
Plants_ for $15.98, marked down from $36 (I have a copy, and really like
it.) Or Frances Perry's _Scent in the Garden_ for $15 instead of $35 (I
like it, too)  Or _Building & Using Greenhouses_ from the Grolier Homeowner 
series for $2.98, down from $10, or the LL Bean Guide to Outdoor Photography 
(Lefty Kreh) for $6 instead of $17?

There are some newish books on the full-price list that look like they
might answer some of the questions that pop up here fairly often,
like  _Pesto Manifesto_ by Lorel Nazzaro (110 pages of pesto recipes?!?!?)
and Bill Adler's _Outwitting Critters: a surefire manual of confronting
devious animals and winning_, or Ric Staines' _Market Gardening: Growing
and selling produce_, which is supposed to have a major section on
marketing strategies, or Ralph Hils' _Market what you grow_, a 50 pp
workbook on the accounting needed in pricing commercial produce ($3
marked down from $10).

I'm particularly looking forward to two books:  Richard Goodman's _French
Dirt_, about a year a New Yorker with no gardening experience, spent
growing a garden the south of France-- mainly as a means of meeting people.
(Hm... I've noticed even the stiffist Brit unbends and even smiles when
talking to an enthusiastic Yank gardener ;-)  )

The other book I'm not waiting for: I ordered it full price (gasp, choke!)
Kathleen Yeoman's _The Able Gardener: Overcoming barriers of age and
physical limitations_.  She's an RN, writing about modifying garden
techniques and tools for those of us with heart problems, back problems,
arthritis, strokes, etc.  I'll let you know how I like it...

  Pinetree Garden Seeds, Box 300, New Gloucester, ME 04260
  (207) 926-3400
  
As I browse through other catalogs, I'll probably be bringing other
bits and pieces to the attention of the net...  Hope you'll
share, too!

Oh yes, got a nice note from Chiltern's the other day, with a 
packet of Desmodium gyrans that I'd been lusting for.  Their
catalog should be along any day now...  8-)

Kay
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Leaf Protein
Date: 30 Dec 1992 09:20:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



Apparently leaf protein has been a traditional food in
India for generations so I am looking into this to find
out more.


-- 
Capt. Kirk: let's head for that planet, third from the sun, it
            looks promising.... |-)
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Hydroponics & CO2
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:48:29 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill


In article <1993Jan03.232313.1313548@zeus.calpoly.edu> 
mffowler@zeus.calpoly.edu (Michael Francis Fowler) writes:

>I am a Aeroponics/Hydroponics hobbyist.  Currently
>I study Horticulture in college.  I am curious about
>careers in these related fields.  Any information
>about these would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.
> 
>Oh...Since I am here-  I am curious what the effects 
>of supplementing Carbon Dioxide to my greenhouse
>crop of flowers and vegetables.  Any suggestions 
>about this is also greatly appreciated.   
>
>	 	 	 	 	 	Have a good one!
>
>	 	 	 		 mffowler@nike.calpoly.edu
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Need alternative to chemical pesticides
Date: 30 Dec 92 05:06:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill


In article <1992Dec29.114821.1822@walter.cray.com> gwv@helium.cray.com (George Vandenberghe) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.220207.12425@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kprender@jscprofs.nasa.gov writes:
>|> I planted my first garden in Texas this year. The bugs down here are voracious.
>|> Anyone have any good tips on some non-toxic ways to get rid of garden pests? In
>|> particular, I have  tomato fruit worms, and aphids. I know about the lady-bug
>|> solution, but is there something besides, sevin dust or diaznon. Any tips are
>|> appreciated. Thanks 
>|> 
>|> Kelly Prendergast
>|> prendergast@sed.jsc.nasa.gov 
>
>      My experience with aphids in the open has been that 
>around the time I start noticing them, ladybugs start
>noticing them too and within a week they are mostly
>gone.  However if you spray, you will kill the ladybugs
>and the aphids will be back in a week.  Aphids
>can be physically hassled by a strong stream of water
>from a hose.  You can knock the majority off into the mud
>and only a few will survive.  This also works on
>spider mites.
>     Tomato fruitworms are susceptible to BT (Bacillus Thuringistis
>or something like that).  This is a disease that paralyzes
>their digestive system and kills them in a day or so.
>It is sold in garden stores under the name Dipel and other
>names.    I occasionally used it to control hornworms and
>various cabbage worms when I was in Florida.
>The tomato fruitworm, cotton bollworm, tobacco budworm and corn
>earworm are all the same insect and it may help if you
>separate your sweet corn and tomatoes.  My experience has
>been that old harvested sweet corn harbors a lot of these
>worms and that as the corn dies they move into tomatoes.
>(I've never seen them move the other way).  In 
>general you will have fewer bugs if you keep your garden
>clean; old exhausted plants often have a disproportionate number
>of bugs.
>     I had a lot of trouble with stink bugs and squash
>bugs in FL.  I never found a satisfactory organic control
>and was unwilling to spray.
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Organic farming economics information
Date: 31 Dec 92 05:16:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <72602@cup.portal.com> CELIA_TONY_BECKER@cup.portal.com writes:
>Dear Molly;
>
>Try contacting Rodale Press, the publishers of "Organic Gardening" 
>magazine.  They are usually pretty up-to-date on these matters.
>
>Also, look at articles under the headings "pesticides" and
>"herbicides" in your university library.  Sometime last year
>a study comparing pesticide use to organic methods in some
>southern U.S. crops was noted in the "San Jose Mercury News."
>The article noted the organic method was cheaper and more
>successful.  However, part of the reason for this, is that
>modern insects have developed immunity to either many 
>pesticides, or stronger doses of them.  Good luck.
>
>Cecilia Fabos-Becker, San Jose, CA.
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
From: mazzucch@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (massimo mazzucchi)
Subject: INFO 
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:27:16 GMT


Hi 

i am MAx from Italy in Milan

i would have informations ( research existent or books ) about 


INDICATORS AND INDEX OF QUALITY FOR FLORA-FAUNA (WILDLIFE)-
VEGETAZION

IN THE VALUTATION OF AMBIENTAL IMPACT.


tHANKS FOR YOUR HELP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
!  Massimo Mazzucchi                         address    e-mail                !
!  University of State                       mazzucch@ghost.dsi.unimi.it      !
!  Departement of Computer Science            149.132.2.1                     ! 
!  Via Comelico, 41 -  20133 MILAN ITALY                                      !
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Punish in Private; Praise in Public
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 08:43:38 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <psmith.725047762@cunews> psmith@alfred.carleton.ca writes:

 > Wouldn't that philosophy reduce the flames that we *all* have to wade
 > through?

Well, I understand the concern but suggest that we are far better off
in the long term by just letting the crap out early so all of us have
a chance to identify it and learn to deal with it better as skilled
and astute Internetters well able to engage a substantial discourse
via this new medium.

If you want to keep sweeping it under the carpet eventually we will
have to live with a reeking stench coming up from the cellar, and by
that time I guarantee we will find *nobody* willing to venture down
there to clean it out.

Let's just think of these as yet really very petty flames as healthy
catharsis, yes?

--
Gil Hardwick                          Internet:  gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au
Consulting Ethnologist                              Fidonet:  3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                         Voice:  (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *