From: hulsey@athena.cs.uga.edu (Martin Hulsey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: talk.politics.animals
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:26:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I apologize to everyone about the SNAFU with the subject heading of my 
last post.  I apparently used the wrong delimiter for my arguments.

Russell Lawrence writes...

>Would you consider gorillas and orangs to be "vegans"?  Do they get
>the necessary amount of B12 in their diets?

No, I consider the great apes to be omnivorous.  Didn't I see Clint 
Eastwood's sidekick Clyde eat a burger once?  I don't care to argue 
about orangutan nutrition in either case.  The issue here is whether 
information from the PCRM is bogus.  Can you not address this issue?

>How many micrograms of B12 are contained in a pound of soil?

Because dirt contains many bacteria, it would likely also contain B12.  
I do not recall that the bioavailability of this source is demonstrated 
in humans.

>How much soil does the average vegan consume during a lifetime? 

Very little, I hope.  When people eat dirt or things such as laundry 
starch, it is called pica.  This is considered an eating disorder.

Depending on the mineral content of the soil, this practice can severely 
compromise the mineral nutrition of the practitioner.
 
 >mh> ...
 >mh> The main purpose of this media circus is to scare people away 
 >mh> from dairy products so that the "rights" of cows won't be 
 >mh> violated.  As I have demonstrated above, the causal link between 
 >mh> milk consumption and diabetes is not unequivocally established.  
 >
 >An article in the October, 1992 issue of _Scientific American_ 
 >mentioned that one of the authors of the July, 1992 NEJM article 
 >about milk~diabetes has been approached by several dairy and 
 >cattle groups who were enquiring about the possibility of 
 >creating transgenic cattle to alter the similarity between 
 >bovine serum albumin and p69.  Is it reasonable, in your opinion,
 >for these groups to be planning ahead just in case the
 >link between milk consumption and diabetes is unequivocally 
 >established in the future?   Why/why_not? 

 It could be construed as an ass-covering move.  On the other hand, if 
 gene products in milk prove protective against IDDM or other diseases 
 (as suggested by the work I cited), it might be beneficial to enhance 
 their expression in this manner.

 If a gene product (bovine or otherwise) is identified that is an oral 
 preventative agent for IDDM, don't you think that the transgenic cow's 
 udder would be a great place to express it?. Just imagine.  No 50,000 
 liter stainless fermentors ($$).  No preparative-scale protein 
 purification to remove bacterial products ($$$$).  Just good ol' 
 transgenic Bossy wandering up to the milker just like she already does.  
 No shots for junior, just drink your milk.

 The "vegan" version of this hypothetical therapeutic agent would cost 
 10-1000 times that of Bossie's.  If it was mandated in lieu of the 
 cheaper alternative, humans would suffer so that cows would not be 
 inconvenienced.

 It would be extremely unfortunate for our species if bambiphilic 
 technophobes managed to stifle this line of research because they are 
 spooked by molecular biology or because they believe that cows have 
 "rights."

 >In such a case, would you agree that it's even more premature for 
 >representatives of dairy farmers to investigate the possibility of
 >transgenic cattle?

 Absolutely not.  As I alluded to above, there are many good reasons why 
 the Dairy Board might want to fund research on transgenic cows.  You 
 shouldn't presume that every action in the research community is 
 sinister.

 >I've learned quite a bit from your posts.

 Thank you.  I wish, also, to learn from yours.  You respond to nearly 
 every post in this and other newsgroups.  I acknowledged your expertise 
 in medical ethics, though I'm unsure of your credentials.  Why did you 
 not, therefore, offer me your opinion about the ethical implications of 
 pseudo-nutritionists practicing Nutrition?

 >Would you mind listing your own credentials briefly?  Are you a 
 >registered dietitian?

 Your archives have failed you, as I have already stated that I am not.
 I have also stated that I do not want people to base their dietary 
 choices on my advice; I want them to VERIFY my advice for themselves.  I 
 firmly believe that people should consult bona fide dietitians for 
 nutritional advice, and not give any credence to nutritional advice from 
 organizations or people that are really trying to save animals rather 
 than promote human health.

 Because I am not generating press releases, my credentials are not at 
 issue here.  I do, however, have a Ph. D. in Nutrition which qualifies 
 me to rebut any PCRM misinformation that Ferrell posts.

 --
 mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu                      Society for Neuroscience
 Martin G. Hulsey                              National Rifle Association
 Dept. Foods & Nutrition      Society for the Study of Ingestive Behavior
 University of Ga.    North American Association for the Study of Obesity
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals