HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:55:04 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

Having skimmed through your proposal, and while I am always interested in 
new ideas on how to transliterate Arabic in Latin, I frankly see little or
no merit in this so-called "AlphaLeb".  Existing Arabic-Latin-Arabic 
transliteration schemes, such as Qalam, can accomodate any dialect of 
Arabic with little or no additions/modification.  

In article <NMOUAWAD.92Sep28153719@math.waterloo.edu> nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad) writes:
>
>
>                          AlphaLeb
>...
>
>Purpose of AlphaLeb:
>The purpose of AlphaLeb is to allow the representation of all forms
>Lebanese dialects in written form.  

So there are multiple Lebanese dialects, afterall.  Then why not have
"AlphaLeb1", "AlphaLeb2", so on.

Also, consider this for size:
The purpose of AlphaTexan is to allow the representation of all forms
of Texas dialects in written form.

Perhpas these is also a need for "AlphaHoustonian", and of course,
"AlphaCalifornian", "AlphaAustralian", etc.

>...
>
>The mother tongue of most Lebanese is the Lebanese dialect of Arabic. While
>there is an alphabet and a standard to write Classical Arabic, there is no
>alphabet nor standard by which we can write Lebanese Arabic (hereafter
>"Lebanese").

It is a dialect of Arabic, yet it has no alphabet?  Maybe I am missing
something here.

>...
>Arabic is the language of the Qor'aan and Islam. To try to adjust or
>"reform" the Arabic script would be a very delicate and difficult job.
>...

Cute.  I particularly like the word "reform". :-)  How does this sound:
"To try to adjust or "reform" English/English script, to accommodate Texan,
would be a very delicate and difficult job."   Sounds pretty silly to me.

Arabic script when augmented with "tashkeel" would probably be more than 
adequate for your representational purposes and those of Iraqis,
Syrians, Palestinians, Saudi, Jordanians, Egyptians, and all others who
speak Arabic, whether they identify themselves as Arabs, Phoenicians,
or Romans.

-Waleed

-=-
"It's not what will happen to us if we do protest, it's what
 will happen to them if we don't."  -- Martin Luther King Jr., 1968
From: hyper@ecf.toronto.edu (Hypersonic CFD Combust Diag)
Subject: Re: The "ploy" w-shu kamen ?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 05:24:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.084129.3434@ulrik.uio.no> e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:
>In article <NMOUAWAD.92Oct4154749@neumann.waterloo.edu> nmouawad@waterloo.edu
>(Naji Mouawad) writes:

>>
>> As it stands Alphaleb is a tool of communcation. You are welcome to
>>use it make comments on its constitution and suggest modifications.
>>You can ignore it and since you are the majority you have not to
>>worry: the small minority we form (isn't Lebanon a country of
>>minorities ?) we will use it happily and be contend in our little
>>corner.
>>
>> You do not need to worry, we will soon disapear and leave you alone.

Who are "you are the majority"???

and what is this "we"?. and who said we want you to disappear?. Just by
merely not accepting your latinization and the alteration of my language,
 you have arrived at all of these conclusions and the different ways 
of looking at "you" and "we"???

Unless the above is a way of attracting pity and at the same time 
portraying the opposition as being an aggressor!!!.


>
>
>I hope that the Middle East will get out of this vicious circle! but, is not
>pluralism the same as chaos?  :(
>

Were you not advocating pluralism at some point. especially in a discussion
with Wassim Alame?. Then again, before that you were advocating secularism
but not the elimination of the confessional system.


>I get more and more pessimistic every day!
>

Tell me about it!!!.

>
>may God bless them!
>

May God bless us all, brother!!! :).

>>naji
>elie wardini

Samir.
From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Arabic aphabet news reader
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:57:51 GMT
Organization: UiO

In article <NMOUAWAD.92Oct5151929@neumann.waterloo.edu> nmouawad@waterloo.edu
(Naji Mouawad) writes:

shalom aleikha! Hebrew solves the problem by writing in Latin!

yes Hebrew has a "simpler" phonetic system that Arabic, @ - H - T - etc. are
pronounced as ' - kh - t - etc. Yet they do not find it an insult to write in
Latin.

Yes we should remember, the Israelites managed to revive a language that was
not spoken for over a thousand years! of course we have nothing to learn from
them!

Ah, let me include a little comment here, by the way:

The Israelites did themselves a big favor in not reviving Biblical Hebrew, but
using a leter form of Hebrew as their base (some Israelis will disagree with
me, but they are wrong, they should learn more about the history of their
language).

THey revived a language that was more flexible and more adaptable. They showed
that they were able to make the needed compromises and have managed create a
linguistic "miracle". What is the most important, is that they are not
incisting on the Biblical Hebrew (ha-lashon ha-qodesh = the Holy language) as
their language of writing as opposed to Modern Israeli Hebrew to the language
of speach. Yes Hebrew displys all the nuances of a living language, i.e. social
dialects, area dialects, city jargon, foreign loans, yet they did not fall into
the trap which Syriac and Arabic are in popularly called among linguists
diglossia. that is one writes a language and speaks another. Israelis today
write and speak Modern Israeli Hebrew. ha-lashon ha-qodesh, is revered, and
learned in school, but they use the modern dialects to write and communicate.

Yes, we have little to learn from them!

>
>Hum... context-sensitive stuff is not easy to deal with. I wonder how
>other languages (such as Hebrew for instance) deal with this problem ?
>
>naji.



elie wardini
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: hyper@ecf.toronto.edu (Hypersonic CFD Combust Diag)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 23:04:13 GMT


In article <NMOUAWAD.92Oct4154041@neumann.waterloo.edu> nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad) writes:
>

>
> massalan be-faranca, "le breton" be-samuuwa lahje. Lei ? la-enno
>leH'o w-samuuha legha bet-um el-denneh w-bet'ud ! iza semmet lahje
>legha, ya@neh @Tayta uwweh siyessiyeh ! iza anna ellet beHke
>el-lebneneh wel-suriyeh byeHko el-sureh ma@-enno el-lebnene wel-sureh
>aribin la ba@dun (metl-l faranceh wel belgikeh) suu bkuun @melet ?
>bkuun await el-fare' el-siyesseh beyn lebnen w-surriyah men-duun ma
>emna@ Hadan men aya Herriyeh. @am b-tefham @alleyeh ? 
>
>
> khuulaSit el-mawduu@ siyassiyeh mesh lughawiyeh.
>
>naji.

Naji, that's where the objection stemed from, that it was more of
a political move than it was, as claimed originally, a way of making
network communication easier using our mother tongue. In other
words, the above clearly reinforces the original doubts about it 
being an attempt to distance the lebanese from their arabic
origin/environment.

As I am sure you are well aware, the syrian  and the Lebanese
dialects are much closer together than are the Belgian and the French.
Linguistically, as also I am sure you are aware, the Lebanese, the Syrian,
the Palastenian and the Jordanian are grouped together as a single
dialect.  It has been mentioned earlier, that those slight differences
that exist between the inhabitants of those countries also exist within 
the people of the same country itself. An example was given as to the 
different accents within Lebanon and how some lebanese share more in 
their accent with the bordering countries than with the Beiruties, per se.

What it boils down to  is that it is an old tune played on a new fiddle.

These ventures to obliterate the arabic heritage in the lebanese
culture date back to the days of the french occupation, or should I
said mandate.

As in answer to Naji's question

> @am b-tefham @alleyeh

Loud and clear, long before the obvious was clearly stated. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi)
Subject: Explosion in Lebanon wounds four Palestinians
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 11:07:50 EDT
Organization: The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[ Article crossposted without permission ]
[ Author was UPI ]
[ Posted on Sat, 26 Sep 92 13:27:59 PDT ]

	SIDON, Lebanon (UPI) -- Four people were slightly wounded Friday night
in a bombing near the evacuated house of a Palestinian official in
southern Lebanon, police sources said Saturday.
	The sources said the bomb, detonated inside a building in the port
city of Sidon, 24 miles south of Beirut, was intended to target Abu
Nidal Kurdiyeh, a member of the mainstream Fatah movement who fled to
Tunis some nine months ago.
	Four of his Palestinian neighbors were wounded in the explosion, the
sources added.
	Police linked the incident to a war which has been raging between the
Fatah movement of PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and the Fatah-Revolutionary
Council headed by Abu Nidal since the start of 1992. The clash has
revolved around the ongoing Mideast peace talks and control of Lebanon's
refugee camps.
	Abu Nidal staunchly opposed the peace negotiations aimed at resolving
the Arab-Israeli conflict and insisted on maintaining the armed struggle
to liberate Palestine.

--
Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
EECS Department                               +------------------------
University of Michigan                        |          (313) 764-8033
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: fardoun_a@cubldr.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Ambassadors' names
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:12:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.130838.24428@njitgw.njit.edu>, elie@sensors.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad) writes:
> 
> Grow up guys.
I 'd like to second your opinion. I don't think this language is compatable 
with the ne.
> 
> 
> --
> 
>                                  ________
> ________________________________/--------\______________________________________
>  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) (Elie Dib Wardini)
Subject: Re: Ambassadors' names
Organization: UiO
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 11:22:09 GMT

In article <92270.164616U38065@uicvm.uic.edu> Nasri <U38065@uicvm.uic.edu>
writes:
>Who still remembers the names of the ambassadors to Lebanon from Japan,
France,
> England, Italy, Germany etc .....
>
>I am talking about the joke where the name of the ambassador "SOUNDS" right,
bu
>t it actually means something in lebanese.
>
>Here's an example:  The Russian ambassador is: Niko Balakhoff
>                    The German ambassador is : Shlakhto Btakhto
>                    The Chinese ambassador is: Shim Tizi Shim
 	               The French ambassador: Jean Masakliye
                   The Spanish ambassador: Dandalero Sandofiik

(sorry for the bad language! ;)  )

> and it goes on and on ....
>
>Who still remembers the whole list ?
>
>
>Nasri
>
>

elie wardini
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Arabic Names
Keywords: list for girls' names, boys' names wanted.
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:14:57 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University



Hi guys I am finally back , I know many will be thrilled :-)


I saw this reference in one article :

In article <1992Sep25.022807.27523@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
|I am looking for an Arabic name for a boy, and would like some suggestions. The
|name should fit the following criteria:
|
|1. Non-religious.
|2. Easy to write and pronounce in English.
|3. Has a good meaning.
|4. Not too common.

I thought the question was genuine and did not deserve the snide 
comments by the guy who was replying ( M. G. ??)


Since I had asked a similar question earlier and many kind
s.c.l readers had obliged, I thought I should post the list
of baby girls' names that were suggested.  Somebody else asked
for and compiled boys' names however I did not save it, sorry.
so here is my contribution to girls' names taken from a previous post
I had written to s.c.l, I am sorry I could not help with boys' names
but maybe this will inspire whoever compiled that list to post it again.

____________________________________________________________________________
Article 3095 of soc.culture.lebanon:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: The List (was: Re: Names)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1992 16:22:34 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Basil Hamdan)
ColoState.EDU>
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University


Without wasting much more time here is the alphabetically ordered
unabridged list of the suggestions I got on the net and in e-mail.

If are names sound alikes (Homonyms?) the first mentioned will
be the Arabic spelling, then the English:

Dana/Danah     The name that got the most votes from the net
Dania
Dina
Dima
Farah/Farrah   My favorite's, but I already used it on my first-born
Faten          What is she turns out to be,  euh... plump
Hala
Hana/Hannah    H is like in Hani, not as in H~mar-donkey ;-)
Jihane         Reminds me too much of Camp David  - it's out ;-)
Johayna
Joumana
Karima
Laura          
Leila/Lila
Lina
Lubna
Mariam/Meriam
Marwa
May
Maya
MonaNadia
Nadine
Najat
Nariman
Nour
Noura/Nora
Rania
Safiyya/Sofia
Salam
Samar/Summer
Samia
Sara/Sarah
Sawsan/Susan
Sourayya
Sukayna
Yasmin/Jasmin

I like Hana, Dina and Dania.  I will keep you posted what the general
in our family -my Significant Other-, decides ;-)

As they say in Texas

Thanks, y'all

Basil
______________________________________________________________________
From: krt@ddxrsg.mlo.dec.com (Khaled Tabbara)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: English ? (Was Re: soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?)
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:52:17 GMT
Reply-To: tabbara@3d.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation




I found AlphaLeb a little hard to understand sometimes. At other times
it is fun to read and sounds a lot like the Lebanese dialect !

I don't really care what language you use as long as we understand each
other. And since English seems to be the most commonly known language
how about we use that ? (you are using English to debate AlphaLeb after all!) 

Is there anything that you can express in AlphaLeb that you can't express
in the English alphabet ?  

Regards,

-------------------------------
Khaled Tabbara

Digital Equipment Corporation
e-mail: tabbara@3d.enet.dec.com

All views expressed are mine...
From: nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: The "ploy" w-shu kamen ?
Date: 4 Oct 92 19:47:49 GMT
	<BvIv93.rC@ecf.toronto.edu>
Organization: University of Waterloo



To those of you accusing us of a "ploy" of "isolasionim" and of
"destroying the richness of our culture":

 there is no "ploy", that is none that I know of here in Waterloo
Ontario :).

 As it stands Alphaleb is a tool of communcation. You are welcome to
use it make comments on its constitution and suggest modifications.
You can ignore it and since you are the majority you have not to
worry: the small minority we form (isn't Lebanon a country of
minorities ?) we will use it happily and be contend in our little
corner.

 You do not need to worry, we will soon disapear and leave you alone.


naji.
--
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Naji Mouawad  |          nmouawad@watmath.waterloo.edu            |
    |  University   |---------------------------------------------------|
    | Of Waterloo   |   "The Stranger in us is our most familiar Self"  |
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: @mol mniH w-kibb bilbaHar
Date: 6 Oct 92 05:18:24 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

Sorry guys, I had just about enough discussion about this AlephLeb business.
It is an Alphabet.  No one is compelled to use it.  I'll continue to use 
AlephLeb whenever I need to until that need is filled by some other method.

AlephLeb is not a language despite what some keep repeating ad-nauseum.
Following is my $0.02 on the Lebanese Language business.  If history is any 
judge, I think that there will be a Lebanese language sometime in the future, 
based perhaps on the Arabic alphabet, but I don't expect to see it actively
used on my time.  If the discussion on this newsgroup is any proof, many 
Lebanese aren't ready for it and some perhaps will never be.  In my opinion, 
there is no point arguing about it now in non-academic circles.  A large body 
of literature has to be written (and sold) in Lebanese before we can even begin
to think of the Lebanese language in serious terms.

AlephLeb has nothing to do whith Said Akal, I personally have no idea what so  
ever what Akal's system is and I don't intend to find out.  His language was
probably not intended for computer use.  As such it does not concern me.  We 
just went about to create a system to allow us to write Arabic alphabet and 
Lebanese sounds with the ASCII table.  The system is not perfect, we had to do a
lot of compromises since each one of us had his own system to start with
which we each though was quite good.  We showed each other the weaknesses
in each other's system.  The success of AlephLeb is that we suceeded where
others have failed: to build a three person (and later more) consensus on a 
single standard.  This success, no one can take away from us.  The degree of the
success is another issue, it is measured by the number of people who start
actually using it as a common denominator, after the dust has settled and the
hoopla has died.

I think AlphaLeb will live long enough until something better replaces it.
I have no emotional attachment to AlephLeb.  Show me something better, I'll
take it.  To all who are attempting to create a tempest in a tea cup.  IF YOU 
DON'T LIKE IT DON'T USE IT and (excuse my French) kiss mon derrie`re. :)

There ends all my public posts on AlphaLeb v 1.0.  Kill AlphaLeb w-into
bkheer.  If you wish to discuss Alphaleb with me, please send email.

Thank you for an interesting discussion.

bassem
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:09:46 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

In article <3OCT199215151964@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu> 9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil) writes:

>In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...

>>You actually believe people would be interested in reading writing
>>Arabic using Latin characters, aren't you?  This is really beginning
>>to sound like a good comedy.  Ayman, just because you and other
>>people think it is a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
>>characters, that does *not* mean everybody else is interested.  I
>>hope this will not shock you now that I have seen *we* and *majority*
>>being consistenly used in your post.

I could restate the same sentence from a different perspective:

                                Khaled, just because you and other
people think it is not a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
characters, that does *not* mean no one else is interested.  

Clearly, unless we take a poll, we wouldn't know for sure how many want
to Latinize Arabic on scl and how many don't!  I suggest, since Latinized
Arabic buggs you so much that you stop reading Latinized Arabic messages
on scl or is it the case that you want to impose your opinions on others?

Let the market place decide for God's sake.  And, if you know of other means
to represent Arabic characters on ASCII screens where most of us are, in the
Western world, without a heavy investment in bitmapped graphics terminals,
then once again post the details of this method so that we can discuss it.

Your intransigence is really starting to bug me.

bassem


bassem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Date: 3 Oct 92 21:31:12 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

In article <3OCT199215151964@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu> 9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil) writes:
>Caveat: in this posting, I shall refer by "we" to those of my friends, 
>colleagues, and fellow students that speak Arabic or have shown interest in this
>language.
>
>In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
>>ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi) writes:
>> 
>>>Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>>>: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to

Hm.. my site did not receive the message Khald was commenting at, Khaled's,
Ayman's,.. Could someone please *email* them to me.

Thanks..

bassem
From: krt@ddxrsg.mlo.dec.com (Khaled Tabbara)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: English ? (Was Re: soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?)
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:19:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: PA.1992Oct6.221939.9032
Reply-To: tabbara@3d.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



The problem with AlphaLeb is that if the writer has a different accent
than the reader then it makes it tougher on the reader. This is not the
case when you are listening to someone with a different accent. Writing
with an accent may make it more difficult for others to understand you.

AlphaLeb is cute, but does not really solve any problem as far as I can
tell.

I don't really think it is a threat to the Arabic language or an attempt
to create a Lebanese language. I think most sensible people would agree
that what the Lebanese speak is Arabic (with a Lebanese dialect/accent)
plus some uniquely local words mixed in. 

I think we've beat up on this topic enough...I don't really care what
alphabet you use. But if you want people to read what you write,
then do it in a way that requires the least amount of effort on their part.


--
Khaled Tabbara                    
Workstations Software Group
Digital Equipment Corporation
email: tabbara@3d.enet.dec.com