HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 08:49:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.081900.5028@cs.joensuu.fi>, hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
|> 
|> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
|> >There are many ways to define, and to find the "need", you know.
|> 
|> How would ***you*** define and find the "need"?
|> Who should decide what people need?
|> Who knows the best what *I* need? Me or some central planning
|> committee?
|> 
--


Of course you define what you need, I define what I need, and, I'm sure
a starving african could define his needs. The problem is that you, I
and the starving african still have the need, even if you, I or the
starving african can't afford to buy it !

But, of course - we don't have to bother - WE, al least, are able to
buy it. The starving african is just stupid who hasn't sved enough
money to buy food. Or at least - he's stupid who lives in a country in
which the leaders don't bother ! (Yes, this was irony...)


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ulf@gbg.infolog.se (Ulf Sundin)
Subject: Unemployment, USSR etc
Organization: Infologics AB
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:37:05 GMT

In <sooz.714253653@vincent1.iastate.edu> sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:

>In <1992Aug19.145423.20232@eua.ericsson.se> euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>
>[previous posts by J.A. Fagertun and H. Vaisenen deleted]
>
>
>>What use would it be? Don't you think these 70 years have left any
>>traces? Why don't you ask e.g. Vaclav Klaus if he wants to import
>>some socialism from the West! I think it's outrageous to use the
>>situation in Russia today as an argument for socialism. A whole
>>people has been bereft all their hope, all their money, all their
>>faith and social and economic abilities, and you say: "Look how
>>horrible capitalism is!" It's cynic in the words worst sense.

>Of course it would be useful. Whether people like you really want to admit it
>or not - the Soviets *did* manage to give the average person there a better 
>life than what they had before.

Better life than before? 
Well, I guess that if you compare the living standard
of USSR in say 1987 with the situation 70 years before this
may be true in some sense. But if you compare this development with the
rest of the industrialized world, the increase in living standard in USSR
is neglectable.

[lots of stuff deleted....]

>of all else. I'd be more than happy to pay twice the taxes I do now, if it 
>would give us a system like the one you seem so eager to abandon.

Well, I guess that twice the taxes won't do.
At least not if you are aiming at Swedish levels... 

>Susan Bradley
>sooz@iastate.edu

/Ulf Sundin, Infologics


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: t35123n@taltta.hut.fi (Jeesus)
Subject: Re: Moving to Finland
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:39:25 GMT

In article <LINNAN.92Aug21140431@robocop.hut.fi> linnan@niksula.hut.fi (Matti Linnanvuori) writes:
>(temporary residence permit only), being an ex-Finnish citizen or
>child or grandchild of one, being an ethnic Finn, or applying for 
>a political refuge (very hard, you'll have to prove you are being
>persecuted by your country's authorities.)

  Actually not a bad idea at all. If you apply for a political refuge 
status, it takes about least half a year before bureacracy makes a 
decision.

  Of course nowadays they make some sort of instant decisions for those
who come from "safe" countries like ex Soviet Union.

  Perhaps you should firs move to Somalia. :-) 
 
  As a somalian refuge you would get a free apartment and food.

  And you wouldn't have to work either.

 t{ss{p{ sitten se piste siknature
 .....  .   ..... . .....   .   . :...: ..... .     .   .  .   . ... 
   :   ...  :...: : :   :    . .  :   : :...: :     :   :  ::. : :  :
   :  .   . :     : :...:     .   :...: :  :  :.... :...:  : ::: :..:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Subject: Re: Sami population
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:31:13 GMT

andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>In article <HAAVARDF.92Aug12195806@gluon.uio.no>, haavardf@gluon.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng) writes:
>> The sami are culturally distinct from Finns, and have been so for all of
>> recorded history. They originally inhabited more or less all of Scandinavia,
>> but were pushed aside by people coming in from the south.

>Hmm, are you sure of this?  Did they inhabit Denmark too?  I had
>the impression they remained mostly in the northern areas, spreading
>to Jamtland/Harjedalen/Dalarna (central-western Sweden) only in the
>16th century, or thereabout.  What time frame are you referring to?


     I've heard, that recent archeological findings show that
     the "southerners" (pre-historic Swedes) had settled in Norrland
     _before_ the Samis arrived from the east. That is, the presence
     of non-Samis in northern Scandinavia is much older than previously
     thought. Can't give you any sources though...

     Mats Winberg
     etxmow@tore.ericsson


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Baltic Sea area demographics and geology
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:08:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.154715.1277@corax.udac.uu.se> I wrote:
> Well, I assume you actually mean "sea", as the Littorina Lake (which
> preceded the Baltic Sea) is gone since some 8,000 years, and now I'm
> of course talking about a time when Scandinavia was still recovering
> from the latest glacial period...

Oops, foot firmly und so weiter...  Should be the Ancylus Lake instead.
The Littorina *Sea* came later.  But who cares about names for waters
that no longer exist? :-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and emplo
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:05:47 GMT

etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se (John Dryselius TG/HB) writes:
>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
>>"mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.

>Just want to know: Where can I find a Western country that is not having a partly state controlled, "mixed" economy?
>I always thought that it is just a question of level of state control of the economy. It is correct to state that the level of state control we have had in Sweden during the Social Democrats ruling been to high but it is also true that for instant USA and GB with their much lower degree of state controlled economy are not doing better than Sweden economically. So I guess that all current economic theories are worthless.

Of course they are doing better than Sweden. You can't look just at the
current level, you must also consider from where it has developed. USA is
definitely a richer country (as a whole) than Sweden -- twenty years ago
it wasn't. During the eighties, middle-class salaries in Britain rose by
25% -- in Sweden by 0.2%. Still, these countries do have a lot of socialism,
and USA does have problems keeping pace with Japan. It seems the more
command-control/socialist economy, the more ineffectiveness.

Also another thing -- even with the non-monetary problems partial socialism
claims to solve, like unemployment, social conflicts, racial conflicts, 
the low interest/ability/ratio in "weak groups" to study at the university,
criminality, and even diseases, IT HAS FAILED.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:05:24 GMT

In article <WN95VBI@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE 
(Mechthild Stoer) writes:

   >And in Scandinavia, as I see, nobody even heard of it.

  Name days in the Nordic countries are not Saint's days, but just names
stuck into the calendar. I don't who the poster was who didn't know
what "name day" meant, but as indicated in the posting from Finland,
name days are a part of life here.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:44:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.064801.2538@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>I agree, most of these wonderful concepts don't work - BUT that's not
>because the idea is bad, it's because the (stupid) economical/political
>system is not capable or willing to handle these problems. Read your
>own article once more, and see what you wrote.

Are you seriously saying that it's always the "stupid" (possibly also 
"evil" ?) economic/political system's fault when "wonderful concepts" 
don't work? Have you considered the fact that the "stupid" *reality* 
could be the problem? Of course, it would be nice if not a single person 
on earth would have to starve, or be housed inadequately and so on, no 
matter how the population expands, or the climate is, but it's fairly 
naive to label the economical/political system "stupid" just because 
this doesn't happen by snapping your fingers.

Tomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
From: iajg500@indyvax.iupui.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Moving to Finland
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:43:50 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

I'm looking for anyone who can aid me with information. In roughly one
year I will be moving to ]bo, Finland, from the United States, and
I need addresses of any and all Finnish agencies I need to contact
regarding immigration. Also, if anyone knows of any place in or
near ]bo that might hire unskilled labor with a highly limited
knowledge of Swedish, that would be wonderful too. :)

Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in
advance.

John Daily
iajg500@indyvax.iupui.edu
wolflord@maria.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 08:12:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.073308.14015@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
|> 
|> If it doesn't work, the idea *is* bad.
|> 
|> If one way isn't perfect, why replace it with another that doesn't
|> work at all? If you want to quarrel with God of how the world is wrought,
|> do you really think God has subscribed to this group?
--

So that's what it is - the hunger catastrophes are God punishing those
non-christians in Africa.
A pity, though, that God punishes christians in Africa, too. Maybe he
should have had some of the beatiful intelligent bombs that God's own
Country used in Iraque ? :-)


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: muchow@zebo.network.com (Jim Muchow)
Subject: Re: Germans drowning in Sweden
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 16:09:03 GMT

In article <etxmow.713707222@garboc34> etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:
>	    It's happened again: Two young German girls 20 and 16 years
>	    in a camping site, decided to paddle across Lake Vaettern

>	    Each summer, it seems to me, far too many Germans lose
>	    their lives here in canoe accidents or by swimming to far from
>	    the shores. Why are they so negligent of the dangers?

I remember this too from Denmark. Although not a "rural" as Sweden, the
Danes were constantly saving German tourists from themselves along the
beaches in northwest Jutland. I think it has more to do with going to
another country, an apparently more "rural" country (than many areas of
Germany anyway) and doing things that one could and maybe would never do
at home. All tourists tend to do this to some extent (the ugly
<nationality> syndrome). Germans, however, seem to go somewhat overboard
(no, I don't necessarily think it's a cultural thing per se).

Jim Muchow - And why do they take all their clothes off? Because they can.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:51:17 GMT

hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:

>Have you considered the possibility that 'the millions of people in
>Africa' are starving because the African governments are finding more
>urgent needs for their funds than to buy food for their citizens, like
>the government of Namibia who recently bought a private airplane,
>worth over US$ 25 million, for the president?

And Finnish government is finding more urgent needs for their development
aid than helping people, like subsidizing Finnish companies. How often
does the development aid actually serve its purpose?

I remember Sweden (and Finland also) used to be very eager to aid
experiments of socialism in third world countries like Tanzania, Vietnam
and Nicaragua.

Janne Kivela"
From: taina@cs.Helsinki.FI (Juha Taina)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Date: 20 Aug 92 08:52:42 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Finland

In <1992Aug20.043935.1@abo.fi> jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes:

>When saying that the system of USA is as bad than the system in the former 
>USSR you should probably consider such things as freedom of speech, GNP per 
>capita or simply how much food an American has to eat (even lower class)
>among other things.

Not to mention the huge pollution problems that Russians have, their
old and dangerous nuclear power plants etc.

Juha


-- 
Juha Taina | taina@cs.helsinki.fi | Phone: +358-0-708-4247
From: urf@icl.se (Urban)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Date: 12 Aug 92 10:29:21 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.

euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:

>etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>>    so next year they will charge an entrance fee to
>>    the festival area to keep the numbers of people down...

>What do you think of this? Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
>pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?

Well, they *did* this in Kalmar, wasn't it, year before last.

I certainly found it very strange indeed, but I only recall a
few people complaining about it (in the press, that is), and
I don't remember there were any official explanation at all,
as to *how* it was possible.
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se (Or: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: "Wise words" from the Swedish King
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:44:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.021102.1107@news.uit.no>, sveini@mack.uit.no (Svein-Ivar Lillehaug) writes:
> ...... Afterwards he realised that his statement were based on incorrect
> sources.........

Which maybe shows that all hope about His Majesty perhaps
isn't lost then...  King Carl XVI Gustaf is notorious for
making sometimes less appropriate statements, if he isn't
guarded by his royal press secretary.  Seals or prime
minister assassinations, it makes little difference.

Not that I'd blame him...  After all, he never applied to become
head of state, and may lack some practical qualifications.
I think he's very well entitled to have people scrutinize his
wordings before they go public, if he so prefers.

> Have the swedish TV and newspapers been looking into their sources????

Do news media ever?  'Never double-check an item, it can ruin the
whole story!'  If you are nonplussed by their lack of objectivity,
then I have sympathy for you, but I'm afraid there is little I can
do about them that you can't do yourself.  Trust me, I don't trust
them for providing the truth and nothing but the truth... ;-)

The media are even worse than the king himself on spelling his
name correctly ("Karl Gustaf", believe that)...
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:35:50 GMT

>ebuhwe@ebu.ericsson.se (Per Harwe) writes:
>>euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:

>>>But that's in the countryside... 
  
>>What? It really upsets me when someone from the (internationally speaking)
>>small village of Stockholm thinks all other cities in Sweden are
>>"countryside".

torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) filled in:
>So Fredrik Ostman bagged one at least...
And know he will tie the knots :-).

Internationally speaking, Stockholm is of course not a small village, not
even a large village -- it isn't a village at all.

Apart from all this nonsense, there is a big difference in urbanity
between people in Stockholm and in the rest of the country. I'm not
sure whether the Stockholmers would accept having to pay entrance to
their own streets.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: "tom anderson" <tom.anderson@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: need a translation...
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:58:14 EST
Reply-To: "tom anderson" <tom.anderson@canrem.com>
Distribution: soc
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

to: rjromanc@sun1.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca

RE: Message 7947 entered on Aug 13,92 by RICHARD ROMANCZYK to ALL


RR Can someone out there tell me in what language the following quote is
   written in and offer a translation into english ?

RR "At taenke sig, Polen ville slet ikke have kommet med hvis ikke Claus
    Thomsen havde oedelagt sig knae..."
                              ^should be sit.

The above language is Danish.  My interpretation is: " Imagine, Poland
wouldn't have made it, if Claus Thomsen hadn't busted his knee."

Where did you pick up that quote, Richard?


Tom.
Entered Aug 13,92 at 17:17:26 on CRS from Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.
   
 * PMDBM  V1.74b #40 *  I multitask......I read in the bathroom.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:17:40 GMT

In article <hberg.167@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> >From where does the name Finland  originate? 
> 
> This is the name the Swedes gave to the SW corner of present-day Finland (
> the part closest to the Swedish heartland).  It meant Hunter-land, I 
> believe.  Why they gave it that particular name, noone knows.  During the 
> Swedish era (1157-1809), the name for the whole place was O"sterland 
> (=Eastland)

I mentioned this once before, and got some response, but I still
find it odd, and wonder if somebody (especially Finnish-speaking)
can offer an opinion:  This SW province of Finland appears to go
by two entirely different names.  What more, each name seems to
have an official translation into each language!  Thus:

Finnish:	Turunmaa		Varsinais Suomi
Swedish:	AAboland		Egentliga Finland
English:	'Province of Turku'	'Finland proper'

Now, if these names referred to slightly different areas or
administrative units, then it would of course make sense to
have different names (each with its own set of translations or
renderings into different languages), but the cross-translation
described above just seems like overkill to me.

For instance, it would make perfect sense to me to call it (say)
"Turunmaa" in Finnish, and "Egentliga Finland" in Swedish (for
historical reasons), and let it stay with that.  To make a
comparison, is there a Welsh *translation* of the English name
for Wales, different from the Welsh name, and vice versa?  No..?

So, what do the locals (Finnish- or Swedish-speaking) say here?
Do you use both names, and if so, in what situations?  What name
do you expect foreigners to use, 'Province of Turku' or 'Finland
proper' (those are my own, unofficial translations)?

Note that I'm speaking only about the original provinces, which
I believe have as much an administrative function in Finland as
they have in Sweden today (i.e. none), not about the modern
"la:a:ni" administrative units (counties), which have a more
formal standing.

I suppose Finnish provinces all have their coats of arms, just
like their Swedish counterparts?
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Date: 18 Aug 92 07:44:15 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall) writes:

>Hah! Stockholm is indeed a village, and a small one too; it's merely a
>couple of houses, located by Indals{lven, in northern Medelpad. Just
>beside it is G|teborg, another village of roughly the same size. So
>there!

Well then they're both bigger than Madrid, which is a small red house
on a hill on K{rs| in Lake M{laren.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: tiok_kl@tac.fi (Kari Leminen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: News of Lion in Finland
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:54:28 +0300
Organization: City of Tampere

In article <0095F528.00310FC0@vax.nott.ac.uk>, cczjtw@vax.nott.ac.uk (John Whitehorn) writes:
> I've been away from my terminal for a month. Before I left there was a
> lot of talk on this newsgroup about a Lion in Finland, was it ever 
> found?
> 	John Whitehorn
-- 	
	No, our government made the whole story about the lion
	so that citizens wouldn't have paid so much attention to
	their financial decisions.B-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
tiok_kl@tac.fi       Department of information technology     
Kari Leminen                      Tampere                    
                                  Finland 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------