HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Big Picture Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lists: The Best Players In Baseeball
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:57:24 GMT
Organization: Roger Maynard Crab Gumbo Club, Ltd.

(Donald P Boell) writes:

>I'm sorry, but there is no way I'll give Thomas the Nod over Will the-thrill
>Clark.  At the end of their careers lets see who makes the HOF.  Will is the
>best 1b in the game.

Well, you're dead wrong, but thanks for playing.  Prepare for incoming
flames.  I think I'll stay out of this one, and let you be corrected by
several hundred SDCNs.

If anyone mentions anything about BA, OBP, and SLG, just ignore them.
Will's a team leader, certainly not a racist, and his defense is the best
in the league.  Hang on to that mantra.



-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "There is a special place in Hell for people like   *
* "Bears virtually  *  you, Gary.  You'll be sharing a room with Rip      *
* no resemblance to *  Taylor, Jim Nabors, Richard Simmons, and America's *
*  David Thornley." *  Scoutmaster General, Charles Nelson Reilly." - AR. *
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: DONS <DONS@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Definitive "Baby Ruth" answer
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:53:27 GMT

>>According to a spokesman for Nestle foods, the maker of Baby Ruth
>>candy bars, they were named after Grover Cleveland's daughter
>>Ruth, not the ball player.  They were first marketed in 1893.
>>
>>How about a FAQ addition:
>>
>>F: "Baby Ruth" candy bars are named after George "Babe" Ruth
>>T: "Baby Ruth" candy bars are named after President Cleveland's daughter.
>--
>ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu
>.
  When I read we had a definitive answer, I was relieved.  "At last,"
  I whispered to my wife, "America can sleep."   Alas, this was not
  to be the case.

Sorry -- statements from the Nestle Company is certainly evidence
but it sure ain't "definitive."  No good historian
would blindly accept an unsubstantiated historical claim
about an institution made by its contemporary spokespeople.  In
the absence of solid evidence, people within an institution are
just as likely to believe folklore about their institution as
anyone else.  Indeed, the institution is often the creator of its
own folklore.  As for an institution's ability to know its past,
it is hard to dig up evidence on many matters trivial and important.
Ask anyone who's researched the era when the Baby Ruth candy bar
originated: lots of information just has not survived the years.

So, if we are to add the results of this debate to the FAQ, we
should give equal time to the possibility of historian's Stuart
Berg Flexner's interpretation (which I'll repeat);

"The candy bar _Baby Ruth_, ... was not named for "Babe" Ruth (or
for Grover Cleveland's eldest daughter, who had been dead since
1904) but for the granddaughter of George Williamson, president of
the Williamson Candy Co., which originally made the candy bar."
(_Listening to America_, Simon and Schuster, 1982, pp. 43-44)

 Don Soucy
>.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: Astros Contenders?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 09:42:40 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: na

In article <1993Jan8.225345.14654@micom.com> jscott@micom.com (James Scott) writes:
>From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
>
>paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>
>> Despite these losers, the Astros should still win 90 ball games this
>
>niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma) responds:
>
>>> What? ... They also have the Plexiglass principle workings against
>>> them; teams that change records dramatically tend to go the opposite
>>> year in the next meaning the Astros are likely to slide back down.
>
>hmmm.  most recently proved by atlanta going worst to first and then
>the next year collapsing its way back into the world series.
>
>james
>
And most recently refuted by the domination of the American League by the 
Orioles in the 1990 season after their dramatic improvement and the doormat
status of the Oakland A's after their 19 game slide in 1991.  

Of course, Atlanta did slip backwards.  They lost in 7 in 1991; in 5 in 1992. :)

Tendencies are just that: tendencies.  The 1914 Braves improved over 30 games to
win the World Series; they slipped a little every year.  The 1950 Phillies made
the World Series; the "Whiz Kids" slipped to 23.5 back in 1951.  The 1961 Reds
improved by 25 games or so, but slipped to fifth by 1963.  The 1967 BoSox went
from sixth to first, but had to rebuild in '75.  The Miracle Mets won in 1969,
but finished about ten out for the next three years.  The '84 Cubs.  And these
are just the extremes.  That Atlanta avoided the tendency to slip is a nice
tribute to them as a team, but it doesn't wipe out the fate of most sudden leaps
in the standings or win column.

If it worked 100% of the time, we'd call it a rule.  :)


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Clark v Thomas
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 10:05:23 GMT

In article <4200371@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell) writes:

>I may be looking through orange tinted glasses.  On the other hand, these
>are some of the factors that need to be looked at:

>o Clark plays 1/2 his games in a pitcher's park where the wind often keeps
>  balls in

Yes, but New Comiskey seems to be a pitcher's park as well.

>o For many years Clark's RBI total may not compare with Thomas because Clark
>  Had Jeffery Leonard and Chili Davis in the lineup with him.  Then, after
>  these guys were gone Clark had Mitchell and Williams.  You can't always
>  get tons of RBIs when you are in the middle of a sweet lineup.

Who cares?  All this shows is how silly it is to use RBIs to measure a
player's performance.

>o Last season Clark had no protection at all in the lineup.  Clark is a 
>  very competitive, agressive player.  He'd rather put the ball in play
>  than leave the bat on his sholder.  As such his numbers for '92 are
>  worse than previous years.  I look for much better this year with Bonds
>  and Williams (assuming Bonds takes the pressure off of Williams who is
>  a bit of a head case).

First of all, Clark's numbers are the same as in 1990, and not much
worse than in 1988.

Secondly, protection has never ever been proven to exist.  Ever.
There is no evidence that a good player hitting behind you changes
anything other than your intentional walk total.

Thirdly, the fact that he is stupid (or, as you put it "competitive,
aggressive") doesn't change the value of what he did.  If he refuses to
take a walk, it doesn't matter why.  He's still not as valuable.

Incidentally, subtract intentional walks, and he did NOT walk any
differently than in 89,90, or 91.

>o I think Clark has the best left handed swing in the game today.

Sure, it's pretty.  But results are all that count.

>For all that, Thomas is also a hell of a player.  You may be correct, I 
>simply have not seen him play as much as I've seen Clark play.

Which is why it's impossible to judge a player by observation alone,
without stats.
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 09:48:35 GMT

In article <1id41pINNsn5@shelley.u.washington.edu> gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) writes:
)In article <1993Jan5.125130.24556@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
)>Of course, there's lots of other possibilities here - it's really hard to
)>say exactly what happened.  I was encouraged to read Aaron's report that
)>both the law and propiety was served by creating an 'interview area'
)>in the locker room, satisfying the agreements to have 'interviews in the
)>locker room' while still giving the players some privacy.
)
)	I take it this report was AFTER Wyche was flamed for unilaterly
)barring women sports reporters, and altered his policy, right?

Yes, not only was it after he was flamed for barring 'women reporters' (when
he had actually banned *all* reporters), it was apparently after some
sort of determination that there was some sort of contractual right for the
media to be in locker rooms.  (Why such a strange thing was signed, I sure
don't know. Think about having your corporation sign a right that the media
has a right to be in your bathroom and interview you there a little bit and
see how you feel about it.)

I thought that the solution of constructing an interview room
*in the locker room* to satisfy said contractual agreement and still give
the atheletes some privacy was a stroke of genius.  YMMV.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 18:32:44 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:
: >Let's put it this way -- can you name a single pitcher as good as Niekro
: >who *isn't* in the Hall?
: >ted frank
: 
: Well, just off the top of my head, how about Kaat.  I know he didn't reach the
: somewhat magical 300 wins, but he has 287 (anyone know if that's right?),
: and a much better ERA.

Niekro: 318-274 .537, 3.35 ERA
Kaat:   283-237 .544, 3.45 ERA

Niekro, relative to Kaat, has: 34 fewer games, 91 more starts, 14 more
shutouts, 9 more saves, 875 more IP, 881 more strikeouts, 726 more walks.
And Kaat didn't pitch in Fulton County Stadium. Was the Twins' park before
the Metrodome a hitter's park? Kaat also played in Busch, a good pitchers'
park, and Old Comiskey, another pitchers' park. Phil all the way.

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

They're aliens. They're my friends. I fed them Pop-Tarts.
	- Geena Davis, in "Earth Girls are Easy"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:15:22 GMT

In article <21205@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary The Big Picture Huckabay) writes:
>
>If you mean just the American League, I feel the following 1B are superior
>players to Cecil Fielder:
>
>1.  Frank Thomas
>2.  Mark McGwire
>3.  John Olerud
>4.  Paul Sorrento
>5.  Kent Hrbek
>6.  Rafael Palmeiro
>...
>I disagree.  Accolades after the fact don't really do anything to change
>your performance.  As for his average last year being an aberration,
>I'll bet his OPS will be about .800 next year, with lousy defense.

Ignore defense for a while...  I'd rather have Fielder than Hrbek, and
might prefer him to Sorrento.  Why?  Hrbek has been unable to play a
500 AB season since 1988!  When you write Hrbek into the lineup, you
must also include 30 games of his backup.  Given that he produces at
only a marginally higher rate (and that Minnesota is more of a hitters
park than Detroit), I'd take Fielder over Hrbek.  Sorrento?  I like him,
but he'll produce an 800 OPS *tops*.  Fielder is better than that.

I think it is reasonable to say that Fielder is the fifth best 1B in
the league.  And yes, fifth best out of 12 is only marginally above
average.  Possibly even below average, considering that the bottom
players are closer to average than the top players are.

>Cecil will be 30 on September 21st.  He is AT LEAST 40 pounds overweight.
>He is a bad defensive first baseman.  His perceived value is much higher
>than his actual value.  He is a player with a high risk of a serious
>injury due to his advancing age and weight.
>
>In other words, he is the prototype player to avoid giving $36 Million
>over five years to.

And here I agree entirely.  I don't generally believe in giving five
year deals to *any* 30 year old players.  And if I had to choose one,
I wouldn't choose Fielder.

-Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (K. Mitchell Bose)
Subject: Re: Get a life baseball fans... Try ping-pong!
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 12:36:32 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Ping Pong...isn't that the game that all the kids who weren't good enough to
get picked in baseball played in grade school?

Thought so.

Cheerfully responded in the nice, pleasant tone in which the original poster
intended to emit.  :)

-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) * kbos@carina.unm.edu * Walks: not that sexy.
"Halt!  Based on conclusive dental evidence that truly bites, I arrest you 
 hereby for the murdering of the dead Belzic Tascar.  I am obliged to warn you 
 that my weapons are registered as offensive fronds!!"- R.M.Allen, "Monkey See"
From: jclark@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (J. Michael Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cards. Are there collectors outthere?
Keywords: cards
Date: 7 Jan 93 05:52:03 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

In article <1ifq2vINN1io@gap.caltech.edu> rander@cco.caltech.edu (Roger F. Anderson) writes:
>I don't believe there is a seperate group for this and I don't know
>if there is sufficient interest for one. I have from various years between 
>1965 - 93 about 20,000 or more Baseball cards which I would like to trade
>but in as much as they are not in perfect shape and given the market these
>days dealers are not willing to try them. I was wondering if anyone out there
>was looking to trade. I would like to finish out some of the years I have alot
>of, particularly 72, 77,80,84,85,86,90,91,92.
>
>Just checkin'

Hey, I collect cards.... I don't know if I have any need for anything right
now... I am sort of on a limited budget being in school and all.... I collect
Robin Yount in particular... Also I like Topps and Upper Deck... Score is OK
too.   I am also starting to collect Pat Listach...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hmn@boggs.cc.ncsu.edu (Harry Nicholos)
Subject: Re: Deion Sanders to give up football?
Reply-To: hmn@boggs.cc.ncsu.edu (Harry Nicholos)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:21:10 GMT


--In article <1ii8l9INN9m4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bz832@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wesley R. Kemmerlin) writes:
|> Subject: Deion Sanders to give up football?
|> 
|> 
|> I saw this in the latest issue of Pro Football Weekly:
|> 
|>  "Don't be suprised if the Atlanta Braves soon make a pitch to
|>   sign Deion Sanders to a baseball-only contract during baseball
|>   season. The two-time defending National League champs are 
|>   willing to peddle outfielder Ron Gant for a relief pitcher and
|>   a minor-league prospect if they know left field will be manned
|>   by Sanders. The earlier they can sign Sanders, the sooner they
|>   can swing a deal."
|> 
|> I hope they will hold onto Gant since his production last season
|> was way down. After he has a more Gant-like season next year, 
|> would be a better time to peddle him. If they want to peddle
|> someone for a reliever, my nomination would be Brian Hunter.
|> Hunter would be perfect as a AL DH. I would not make any trades
|> for a reliever until we see how Wohlers, Mercker, and Stanton
|> perform early next year. 
|> -- 
|> WESLEY
|> 

Wesley,

Hopefully, for all us Braves fans, mgmt will realize that of the three decisions
to be made (1. Relief help, 2. Do something with Gant, and 3. Sign Deion to a
baseball-only contract), signing Deion is clearly the lowest priority.

Your point is well-made that panic at this point over the relief corps is 
unwarrented and I would add that with those three, that would be one heck of
a bullpen-by-cmte.

Gant did have a un-Gant-like season, but I think hanging on to him is probably
more important that hanging on to a so-called slugger like Dave Justice, that is
if you feel like you have to make a deal.  When Gant is playing his game, he 
is a more potent offensive threat than Justice (not to mention defensive skills).

Deion, IMHO, is a great lead-off hitter, but that doesn't make Gant expendible. 
Come to think of it, wouldn't a 30-30 man like Gant make a decent lead off (let's
see, does Rickey Henderson come to mind, and he's even aged well).  Well, maybe
Ron doesn't really have that kind of speed.

I guess my thinking is that Justice is more expendable than Gant, if you have to
get rid of an outfielder.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry Nicholos       KD4TCS     |>>Not always correct, but never in doubt<<
VMS Systems Programmer          | Harry_Nicholos@ncsu.edu
Computing Center                | hmn@ncsuvax.bitnet
North Carolina State University | (919) 515-5497
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Stephen Jascourt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lists: The Best Players In Baseeball
Date: 10 Jan 93 03:44:10 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

All this talk about who the best closer will be in '93:
Dave Kirsch writes:
 In article <1993Jan9.053557.21189@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
 (David Marc 'Singer Beastmaster wannabe' Nieporent) writes:
 >
 >>This is very arguable.Eckersley had a great season,but wasn't really as good
 >>as the media hyped him to be.Of course,you can't argue with his consistency.
 >
 >Well, he certainly (IMO) didn't deserve either the MVP or Cy, but to say
 >that it is "very arguable" is very arguable.  Who is most likely to be the
 >best closer next year, if not the Eck?

   Rob 'Wonder Jaw' Dibble? Duane Ward, perhaps? Both, of course, would be
   dependent on Eck slipping a little. I suppose Dibble could, if things broke
   right, put together a season that could be mentioned in the same breath as
   Eck's 90 without laughter. Dibble I like because of his pure stuff. Ward has
   stuff almost as good, and has been a very durable reliever for several years.
---------------

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Rod Beck? His '92 stats were awesome and people
I've talked to who saw him were extremely impressed with his arsenal and expect
a comparable performance in '93. 

Stephen Jascourt   stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu

note: my newserver doesn't get rec.*, and the place I read the above-quoted
articles doesn't give me posting priveledges, so it is cumbersome for me
to communicate through posting stuff.
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Date: 10 Jan 93 20:52:31 GMT
Organization: Biochemistry

In article <1993Jan08.231322.14520@sco.com> erics@sco.COM (eric smith) writes:

>
>563 regular-season home runs? It used to be that 400 made you a lock
>for the HOF; now that's no longer true, thanks to Dave Kingman and
>Darrell Evans. But 500+ has to be considered a superlative career
>accomplishment; only fourteen have done it, and only five have hit
>more than Reggie.
>
>-----
>Eric Smith
>erics@sco.com
>erics@infoserv.com
>CI$: 70262,3610
>

What, you don't think Darrell Evans is a HOF player?  I'll agree that he's no
Reggie Jackson, but he was a pretty darn good 3rd baseman.  Great power, great
eye, average batting average, decent glove at a moderately difficult defensive
position.  Who in his era, (early 70's through mid-80's at 3B), other than Mike
Schmidt, was a better 3B?  For how long?  Unfortunately, Darrell played in
Atlanta and SF in the 70's, two truly bad teams.  And of course, in his league,
Mike Schmidt was the All-Star year after year.

I would argue that Darrell Evans has is more qualified for the HOF than Steve
Garvey (to tie into this thread again.)  Maybe Darrell and Ron Santo should go
in together when the time comes.

Anyone with the Baseball Encyclopedia want to post the stats for Darrell?

(Of course, the only HOF Kingman deserves to get into is the Immature Jerk
HOF.)  
Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Can a Good Glove make up for a Dead Bat? (and vice versa)
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:47:42 GMT

In article <1452@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>Horrible.  Atrocious.  Whatever comes next in the progression "Good, Bad, 
>Ugly, ________."
>
>Blauser had BY FAR the worst DA among NL shortstops in each of the years
>1989, 1990, and 1991.  We're talking DAs in the .580 range, when the league
>is around .630 and the top players around .700 or better.  It doesn't look
>like a park or staff effect, either, since Belliard was tops in the NL in '91.
>
>...which doesn't mean you wouldn't still be better off with Blauser at SS,
>though, since his bat is so much better than the other options.

Okay -- Blauser is a .580 DA, while Belliard is a .700 DA.

How many plays do shortstops face a game?  

If a shortstop has about as many defensive plays as offensive plays,
would it be the case that Belliard would be a better person to have
at shortstop than Blauser, as long as he was within 240 or so OPS of
Blauser?

Can one justify a Lance Johnson or a Sammy Sosa by their glove?  Probably
less likely in the case of an outfielder, but then again, I vaguely recall
LJ having a RF about 50% above normal, so I'd be curious to see if his DA
was also way above average.  

Could a manager, through judicious use of DA, have a secret weapon no one
else has?  Can you win through great defense?

The year of the Orioles' first great rebound, one of the theories behind it
was that their defense really picked up, giving much more confidence to the
pitchers, a virtuous circle and all that.

Just curious.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
From: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Trademarkability of personal names (Was: Re: Babe Ruth Candy Bar)
Date: 11 Jan 1993 16:59:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: brock@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Bradley W. Brock)
NNTP-Posting-Host: g210b-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <C0ox95.EyJ@geovision.gvc.com> pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)  
writes:
> Evidently, the prez of McDonalds contacted John Sculley (prez of Apple
> Computers) the day of the Macintosh announcement to get him to agree never
> to call his computer `The Big Mac' or anything close to a McDonalds
> trademark.  (Wow - McDonalds Lawyers against Apple Lawyers: The clash of the
> titans)

It just goes to show to what lengths McDonald's will go to dissociate  
themselves from quality.:-)
--
Bradley W. Brock, Department of Mathematics
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology  | "Resist not evil.... Love your
brock@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu       |  enemies."--Jesus of Nazareth