HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  300 MIP Amiga
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:46:15 GMT
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Nov21.205952.1195@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:
>In article <1992Nov21.175023.13871@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> abs0@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kelvin Leung) writes:
>
>>Yet, Commodore isn't sitting idle either.  We know that they (at least
>>their engineers ;) are working on newer chipsets and more advanced feature.
>>So I wouldn't think Amigas will go under any time soon.  The only way to 
>>kill the Amiga now, is to stop supporting/buying Amiga and Amiga-related
>>software/hardware.
>
>But the irony is that mainstreaming the platform through RISC capability
>would open up the system to a wide range of possibilities. The potential 
>of running NeXTStep, Windows NT, Unix or VMS leads to longevity. Making
>the A4000 CPU modular offers tremendous advantages.

Lets see:

NeXTStep - runs on 68030, 68040, 80486 - cost will be around $2500 for the
           486 version.

Windows NT - now officially know as Windows 3.1 NT - will mostly be sold to
             the Windows 3.x server marketplace.

Unix -	Commodore already has it.

VMS - with base + development system + network support the license fees can
      vary between $20000 to $50000 for software alone.

Where is the advantage?

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Falcon has a 16 bit bus (the Atari words)
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:40:40 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

There are enough different atributions here that I'll leave what was posted
to comp.sys.atari.st.tech relatively unmolested:

" Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st.tech
" Subject: Re: Falcon '030 BUS: 16 or 32 bit?
" Message-ID: <H.QHklPxgdMm2@fredrik.atari.no>
" Date: 17 Nov 92 21:56:48 GMT
" Date-Received: 18 Nov 92 16:58:41 GMT
" Reply-To: jornmoe@fredrik.atari.no
" Organization: Atari Corp. Scand. AB (Norway)
" Lines: 61
" X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.03 Rev. Apr 14 1992
" 
" Ok, sorry about this guys, but here's the final facts:
" 
" 
"   Date: 17 Nov 92 07:02:23 EST
"   From: Wilfred Kilwinger <72347.2124@CompuServe.COM>
"   Subject: Want to get something cleared up....
"   To: >INTERNET:jornmoe@fredrik.atari.no
" 
"   >There's a lot of confusion going on at comp.sys.atari.st.tech about the
"   >Falcon bus: Does it have 16 or 32 bit databus (CPU <-> memory)?
" 
"   This is what John Townsend (Atari Corp) said on GEnie:
"   --------------------------------
"   Atari-ST RoundTable
"   Category 14,  Topic 20
"   Message 73        Mon Nov 16, 1992
"   TOWNS [John@Atari]           at 15:01 EDT
"  
"   Once and for all..
" 
" 
"   The Falcon030 has a 24bit Address Bus and a 16bit Data Bus. The
"   expansion port on the machine represents that bus.
" 
" 
"   The Falcon030 can have a minimum of 1 meg of RAM and a maximum of
"   14 megs of RAM. Possible RAM configurations are 1meg, 4meg, or 16
"   megs of RAM.
" 
" 
"   -- John Townsend, Atari Corp.
"   ------------------------------
"   Note that the Apple LC and the Classic II use the same trick and some
"   chips do have full 32bit access like the video logic.
"  
" *****************
" 
" Now, that should settle the discussion on wheter it has 16 or 32 bit bus, but 
" it will certainly not settle the frustration among some of you Atarians now:-/ 
" But remember: with its low price, the Falcon 030 is quite uniq anyway!!
" 
" And while we are at it with facts from reliable sources:
" 
"   >There just appeared a roumor about the reason for the delay of Falcon. The 
"   >roumor states that an Atari official (in europe som place) said that the 
"   >reason for delay was that new video-modes were added (redesigning of video-
"   >hardware) to see to that the Falcon had better spesifications than Amiga 
"   >1200!
"   >Do you have anny coments on this roumor (that I may quote to internet)?
" 
"   Yes, 100% nonsens.
" 
"   Regards,
" 
"   Wilfred
" 
" -- 
"   _______________________________________________________
"  / Joern F. Moe /  All above is my own personal opinion! \
" / Oslo, Norway /  Any lack of opinion above is also mine! \
" -----------------------------------------------------------
-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
From: douddy@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: PIRACY
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:43:10 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

In article <By2wwI.H1I@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
> In article <1992Nov20.174003.19508@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com> jgrimm@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Jeffrey Grimmett 9999) writes:
>>Quoth jagrizza@uncc.edu:
>>]> > /---------------------------------------------------------------------------\ 
>>]> >(  10 rem *** Nice program! ***             |   Letters: abcdefghijklmnopq    )
>>]> > ) 20 print"Espen Skoglund is my name. ";   |            rstuwxyzABCDEFGHI   (
>>]> >(  30 goto 20                               |            JKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ    )
>>]> > \---------------------------------------------------------------------------/
>>]> 
>>]> this is my first flame (ever!) but this really has to be done...
>>]> 
>>]> can you kill this sig??  *PLEASE??*
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Is there something offensive in this fellow's .sig?  Hm, repetitive program
>>in BASIC (ack), some dashes, the alphabet.  Hm, nothing I can see...
> 
> An alphabet without a lowercase 'v'.
> 
>>Brain police?
>>-- 
>>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@********************************************
>>Jeff Grimmett [SuperBitMap BBS]          * fido!1:202/1401.0 [619-460-7290]
>>jeff_grimmett@f1401.n202.z1.fidonet.org  * jgrimm@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
No lowercase 'v'? sounds like a personal problem to me

Dustan Doud
DOUDDY@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Notebook Computers Dominate Comdex
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:40:34 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: Wright State University

In article <Bxvzyt.8EI@news.iastate.edu>, barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
> 
> 
>    The obvious questions are: when is Commodore going to develop a notebook
> Amiga???  Will it be when the growth of notebook sales has slowed and some
> other technology is the cutting-edge in the industry?  And when will Commodore

	Mark,  I bet if you promise Commodore that you'll buy just one each
	Amiga notebook computer and pen computer that they will make one
	for you.  Really!

> jump into the pen-based computer market?  This market is still small and 
> Commodore could make quite a splash were they to get into the market today. 
> But if Commodore waits and waits and waits before jumping in, they will pass
> up yet more opportunities to become a competitor in an emerging market.

	Commodore has to compete where it has its strengths, not just any
	old place.  I would suspect most people using notebook computers
	are sales-persons or somthing that requires instant accounting or
	documentation.  Do you really think the Amiga has something to
	offer in these areas?  

	Again.  Why is this in hardware?

> 
> ---
> | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
> --------------------------------------------------
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: etxtsg@solsta.ericsson.se (Thomas Grennefors  TX/DKF)
Subject: Re: Amiga or Messy-DOS
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 12:07:58 GMT

fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:

>	Wrong.  Wrong.  A 7mhz 68000 is more comparable to a 12mhz 286
>	speedwise.  And since it is a 32 bit processor in the programmers
>	sense, it is really comparable to a 386sx.  XTs only ran a 4.77
>	mhz, if I remember correctly.  That 1985 technology was at least
>	3 years ahead of its time when compared to PCs.

Yes but it`s three years (at least) behind todays tecnology (386 486 3000 4000). 

>	Gee I've never seen read-write errors and crashes on PCs?  Abort?
>	Retry? Fail?.   Internal stack Error.  You can't run xxx with
>	Windows.  Or just sit their and look back at you.  At least the 
>	Amiga crashes and resets itself or shows you an error message of
>	some sort.

Yes i didn`t say that the PC was fool proof, but it feals more reliable
than an amiga. Every computer fails one time or another. The thing that is
important is how often does this problems occurs, and that way to often 
on my Amiga.

>	Yes, Yes, I love data base and wordprocessing.  I can't WAIT
>	to turn on my computer and do that!

Ok you do not use your computer for that, so every one that does should 
be flamed and looked upon as moorons. Gee i uses my computer for word 
processing and database applications so i'm a less qualified computer
user tham you are! Is that what you mean? Is shure sound like that.
The point i wanted to make was that i run process demanding applications
an therefore i need a computer wit a lot of prosess power.

>	Gosh, WHAT an advantage.  I'm sold.  I want to read my friends
>	WP file!

Where did i say that i wanted to run Word Perfect. Here you go again.
Looking down on people because they do wordprossessing instead of 
writing nifty demos with sinus scrolls with 2048 different colours.
with 300 different objects moving across the screen with different 
patterns.

>	486s are dirt cheap.  For sure.

Yes. About $1000 cheaper than a 3000.

>	If you have used an Amiga for some time, you will loathe using
>	MS-DOS, there is no comparison.  The Amiga is so much more user
>	friendly.

That's one thing that i haven`t noticed. I never use WB on my amiga if i can
avoid it. Everything i do i do from a shell. I want full control over what
i do. The fact that i uses unix at work may have something to do with it.
And the difference between Amiga in shell and a PC in dos is not that
great.


--

Thomas Grennefors         ! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Ericsson Telecom,Karlstad ! What do you mean, an African or a European swallow?
etxtsg@solsta.ericsson.se ! Well...I don't know...AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: World Of Commodore Video (Pasadena)
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:43:34 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cie.uoregon.edu


VERY LIMITED OFFER FOR USERS' GROUPS ONLY: WORLD OF COMMODORE VIDEO (PASADENA)
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***************************************************************************
*** Read this entire message. I will ignore stupid questions and pleas. ***
***************************************************************************


   I have a copy of the World of Commodore video made by Mike Smithwick, and
distributed freely by The Amiga Group. As per my agreement with them, I am
making this video available to USERS' GROUPS ONLY. (If you want a personal
copy, join a users' group and get a copy from them). I WILL ONLY MAKE TWO
COPIES OF THIS VIDEO TAPE - PERIOD. 
   Users' groups, this is what you must do: 

   * Send me a 120 minute VHS tape, with complete return postage and
     a self-addressed envelope which will hold the tape (this is how
     you get it back). There are no other fees.
   * When you receive this tape, you must announce here on  
     comp.sys.amiga.advocacy that you have this tape, and will make
     copies for others, just as I have done here.
   * As per the request of The Amiga Group (TAG), you must give credit
     to Mike Smithwick for making this tape.
   * I must be contacted ONLY by a users' group officer. You will have  
     to prove it to me in some fashion.

   Please do NOT abuse this. I WILL ignore all requests by non-users' groups.
I am doing this out of the goodness (what's left) of my heart, and I will be
severely pissed off if someone takes advantage of a Good Thing in a bad way.
   If you are a users' group officer, Email me. Once I receive two messages
from legit groups, this offer is fini, done, no more. Please understand the
word "no".
   This offer will not be repeated or reposted. Use your buffer capture. 

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                       Willy Beamish Development Team
All opinions expressed are my own.                      (MS-DOS CD-ROM, Sega-CD)
ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu, BIX: ggiles                   Author of DiskInfo, ZSound
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mike@rahul.net (Mike Smithwick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Amigas at Comdex
Date: 23 Nov 92 08:24:05 GMT
Organization: a2i network

[]
I found two other booths besides Commodore's which had Amigas. One
was a leasing firm, showing all of the different kinds of equipment
that had available, and the other was at the Motorola booth. I went
by on Friday and the A4000 was showing nothing but the "insert
Workbench" animation. I asked one of the droids there about it and
he said that the HD crashed that morning.

I did spot an Amiga monitor in a small booth at the Hilton. The company
was selling Mac powerbook addons, and the Amiga monitor was in a rack
above a Powerbook. It wasn't hooked up to anything at the time, but
it implied that the PB was able to be hooked up to a color display
if one had the right equipment.

mike


-- 
"Friends don't let friends vote Democratic"

Mike Smithwick - mike@rahul.net
From: jk72+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jonathan Michael Kraly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend
Date: 22 Nov 92 11:54:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.8f406jC00WB44=028U
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


	I am a CE major, and all the programs that have been mentioned
are available somewhere on campus, on machines that nobody would
compare to a 486 or an 040(Decstations, Sparcs, etc...).  Sure
sometimes we have to use the 486 lab for something, it's only once a week though and that has been enough
to convince me that I would never want to buy an IBM for my own
personal use.  I am not even talking about windows, programs that run
from dos just disgust me how slow they are.  Even in black and white
our 486's don't update much faster than my 3000 in color.  I have to
use Mac's sometimes as well, I've found the same thing.  I can't stand
macs in 256 colors, much too slow.  So for my own personal use I
decided to buy a 3000UX, now I can run all of these engineering
programs from the server and still have a likeable computer for my own
personal use, and I don't even owe anybody any money.
From: storm@cs.mcgill.ca (Marc WANDSCHNEIDER)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWTEK: WHAT HAPPENED?
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:11:09 GMT
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada

In article <By0E4H.Gu4@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>
>   NewTek is also similar to many other small companies that develop really
>innovative technologies.  They become a flash-in-the-pan, by sitting back on
>their heals while the rest of the world passes them by.  I doubt if NewTek 
>will be able to develop anything as a encore to the Video Toaster.

	SO tell me; is ANYBODY good enough for you..?


	Toodlepip!
	Marc 'em.
-- 
  storm@cs.mcgill.ca           McGill University         "-- Attack ships on
  Marc Wandschneider           Montreal, CANADA             fire "
	Any opinions expressed are not mine, but those of the Demon Lord
      Yeegeheeegenogohugu who possessed me whilst I munched on Raisin Bran.
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: How much of the old OCS stuff will break on AGA machines?
Date: 22 Nov 92 12:00:58 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Nov19.194818.20257@sol.UVic.CA> by aramsey@ugly.UVic.CA (Aaron  Ramsey):

> (Jeez... who am I kidding! This is advocacy... anybody able to type with
> one finger will have a thought, and might just post!  8-)   )

    It's going to take me all afternoon to type this in. It took ages
    to Del out the parts of your message that I don't want to quote...

    Anyway, do "they" follow the current hardware manual when they
    write their disk protection routines? Isn't the problem with disk
    protection that they _don't_ follow the current hardware manual
    correctly enough, and thus end up assuming things that are true on
    their system are true for all systems?

    That implies that they just experiment with the hardware already.
    And they aren't going to be strangers to the idea of disassembling
    the OS to get at information they want.

> -Aaron Ramsey          aramsey@ugly.uvic.ca
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torban@csuvax1.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Torban Bennett)
Subject: Re: NO MORE *&#*$(^*& MENSTRUAL JOKES
Organization: Murdoch University
Date: 16 Nov 92 07:08:04 GMT

seifert@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael S. Seifert) writes:

>In article <BxIuH1.1K8@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> robert@geoblue.gcn.uoknor.edu (Robert Lindsay) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov5.052858.19768@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> seifert@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael S. Seifert) writes:
>>

[Good ol' flame fest deleted (but I kept my archived copy!) ]

I gotta say this, I haven't seen flame throwers out like this, since
GLEEP was here ;-)

(Where'd Gleep go anyway?)

Torban Bennett - Gleep Appreciation Society (GAS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: PIRACY
Keywords: semprini, spam, ni, naughty bits
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:22:24 GMT

eyvind@Lise.Unit.NO (Eyvind Bernhardsen) writes:
>espensk@stud.cs.uit.no (Espen Skoglund) writes:
> > Hey, who would want to buy a computer if he/she had to spend $200 for every
> > program they wanted to purchase? I wouldn't.
>
>Then why did you buy a computer?

I, for one, appreciate the fact that Amiga software generally costs much less
than $200.  Now, if we just had a Word/AmiPro/WordPerfect-compatible word-
processor...

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: seifert@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael S. Seifert)
Subject: Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 19:12:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.164215.3212@ncsu.edu> linville@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (John W. Linville) writes:
>In article <jbickers.0in6@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>>Quoted from <1992Nov16.223302.6261@ncsu.edu> by linville@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (John W. Linville):
>>

GOBS OF TRIVIAL DATA DELETED..

>
>OH MY GOD!!!  You mean, you people objected to my counting editors and drawing
>programs, yet you are going to count the 'NULL' device and other device drivers
>as running processes!!!  Give me a damned break!
>
>>    Are you trying to say OS/2 can't do this, or what?
>
>Just the opposite.  I was saying that everytime I had seen an Amiga get more
>than 15-20 real programs loaded, that it had practically died.
>
>John W. Linville
>

Um, johnnie boy, have you ever really seen an amiga trying to do 15 tasks at
once??  And who was the idiot who couldnt show it to you???

I routinely (due to the sinister dispositions of my fine professors) call up
around 10 different processes just to create a dammed bode diagram on my A3000...
Although Im not proud of this, as I would think a single program should be able
to do this job, it is a fact.  Here is my lovely list, for you:

1) GNUplot   2)CygED  3)Procalc  4)Multiplot  5)Post17  6)TERM  7)freq (I made
this one)   8)Ados shell (for them file things, you know)

Okay, so this is only 8... but I do it all the time without any trouble-- and with
a lot of little things in the background like 1) CPUblit  2) Screenblanker
3) (some sort of silicon windows program, I forget the name)   4)TypeBuf  (another
of my progs)

Note that most of these are PD or homemade programs, all running with no
trouble every week.  Come and visit, Ill give you the grand tour from
someone who knows how and how not to crash his machine...

mike seifert, spewer

I dont know what the actual argument is here... Ive played around with OS/2 a 
little and it seems fine to me.. Once C= is dead and gone, Ill probably use it...

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: A4000 PCTask Demo Results
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:58:34 GMT

Okay, I just finished running the PCTask Demo on the A4000 and it works
pretty well.  It booted off of a 1.44M MSDOS floppy in pc0: with no
problem and ran everything that I tried.

The Norton SI benchmark rated is as 4.2 times the speed of an IBM XT,
versus about 1.0 for the A3000.  The C&T MIPs benchmark had the following
results:
                           XT      AT     386     MIPS
General Instructions     2.22    0.65    0.33     0.36
Integer Instructions     3.22    0.50    0.22     0.54
Mem to Mem               2.44    0.75    0.42     0.58
Reg to Reg               3.08    0.40    0.17     0.55
Reg to Mem               1.97    0.59    0.33     0.60

Overall                  2.41    0.58    0.29     0.53


The Vidspeed benchmark rated it for ~3000-3100 bytes/millesecond.

Scrolling is actually usable and the emulator might actually be worth
using if PCs weren't so cheap.

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: not to fuel the fire, but...
From: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Psigon Matrix....do you DOUBT us??)
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:02:53 -0600
Reply-To: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Distribution: comp
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <bmccnnll.721934029@unix1.tcd.ie>, bmccnnll@unix1.tcd.ie (Barry McConnell) writes:
>In <CSHORT.92Nov14050742@ogygia.nmsu.edu> cshort@nmsu.edu (MetaPope, Internet in a Day Tour.) writes:
>
>>  The reason for the delay of the Falcon is that Atari has
>>pulled it back and redesigned the graphics system. This was done
>>when they got the specifications for the A1200.
>
>How long have they had the specs for the A1200? Probably not long I guess, as
>the machine is very new! I would be very surprised if you are correctly using
>the past tense when you say "redesigned". Graphics chips take *years* to
>develop, not weeks.
>
>>This is done to ensure that the Falcon is better than
>>the A1200 in all ways!!!
>
>It doesn't run Amiga Release 3.
>
>>  Machines should be shipping by the end of next week.
>
>Rubbish. How can they make radical changes to the chipset, plus the software
>to cope with the changes, and have it all ready, working, and thoroughly tested
>within such a short timespan?
>
>Barry.

read all above and laugh...it was a joke.


Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   It is not I who am CrAzY, it is I who am MAD!!!!! -Ren (SpaCe MaDDneSs)
Living w/o a computer 'till the 4000 comes. Sigh... X-ASOCC (CBM Blew that one)
           Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
A4000 Coming SOON!!, Real soon.                 MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------