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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:07:33 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Lyrics

"Lamb of God" by Mylon Lefevre and Broken Heart
from the album "Face The Music" 1987

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lamb
Worthy, Worthy, Worthy is The Lamb

Behold The Lamb of God,
Who takes away our sin,
The Holy Lamb of God,
Who makes new life begin.


Glory, glory, glory to the Lamb,
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus is the Lamb:

Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away our sin,
the Holy Lamb of God, who makes new life begin.

Oh! Worthy is the Lamb! Hallelujah to the Lamb,
Hallelujah, to the Lamb
Your are worthy, your are worthy!
Worthy is the Lamb.



I hope this blesses someone today. As I write the words, I am experiencing
rapture my soul. He is so Worthy. God Bless you all. Love and Blessings,

Mark
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:50:28 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: God's word as truth
              Zimmerman" at Nov 20, 92 11:53 am

>
>Ok, i will accept that being gay is a sin *if and only if* you will accept
>that wearing a cotton/polyester blend shirt is a sin, and that eating a
>rare or even medium rare hamburger is a sin of the same degree as being
>gay.  After all, if people are going to follow God's word, it better be
>*all* of it, and not just the choice parts that suit what you want to believe.
>
>Referring to another post you wrote, i have read the parts in leviticus about
>homosexuality.  That's where i found the references to wearing clothing with
>mixed fabrics and eating flesh that still has blood in it, not to mention
>a few other things that are common today but are not considered sins.  I know
>some are rather tired of this argument, but i have yet to hear it explained
>adequately.
>
Angela.

The Law, in which you quote has been abolished for the christian,
we have no need to carry out such commands, because as the bible says that
those who choose to justify themselves by the law must live out ALL of it..

Homosexuality HOWEVER is mentioned several times in the NT as STILL being
an abomination to God.. The Moral Law of God has not changed, the
cerimonial and religious laws of Moses have passed away, but there are
still certain moral standards by which we are expected to act.

Homosexuality, the same as any sexual immorality or defilement is still
abominable to God. Now if you were to say that homosexuality is no worse
than adultery, then perhaps I would agree!!! I think that most christians
accept Adultery a whole lot more than they accept homosexuality, strange
isnt it!!



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:14:17 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      I'm back!

Hi All,

I have returned from my work imposed surjorn.
Whats been happening? strife? rebellion? the normal stuff!


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:45:17 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Are Christians still sinners?
              21 Nov 1992 22:25:14 GMT from <S096556@UMRVMA.UMR.EDU>

Lonnie:

My earlier post was just a quick response to your post about your having
been a Christian all your life. My point is that it would seem the majority
of us were conceived in iniquity and sin with Adam's sin on our head and in
need of the saviour from birth. Matthew says Jesus came to save His people
from their sin. But if someone has been a Christian all his life, well, hey...
what does he need to be saved from?

Tom
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:47:05 CST
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From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military

Dan,

I did not say that God forbids gay people in the Military.  God forbids
men being lovers of them ownselves and same for women.  That is a sin..
God speaks against it with the situation of Sodem and Gommirah.  I misspelled
it but you know what I'm talking about.  Read Leviticus and Romans. I will
look up the exact chapters and send them to you.   God does not like it and
niether should we as followers.
Janie
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 10:03:36 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Counselling Advice

Tom,
I dont know much about the first two groups, but I know the kids love
the Christian rap. However, White Heart has been around awhile and I
have seen them live several times. My experience was very positive. They
do a very good job of bringing the gospel to young (and old) rockers.
Over the years I have admired the talent and the apparent dedication and
sweet spirit of Mark Gerschml (keyboardist and long time leader). Get ready
to rock with the flock, because they don't fool around! The lead singer
is a perpetual motion machine and loves to do backflips and such on stage!
Most of all, get ready for some wonderful ministry and for some precious
young lives to be changed. My prayers are with you my brother!
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:40:06 EST
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Being gay is offensive?

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>sin.  So that is not discriminating.  Gays know that being gay offends people
>and what does the bible say about offending your brother.  I will provide the
>scripture later if you want.  But it says in short that if your right arm
>offends the left are then remove it or cut it off.  So if the gay people
>insist on being gay I think that they should doit  privately.  Not force
>themselves in society.  Making it acceptable behavior because it is not.

Christians know that being Christian offends people and what does the bible
say about offending your brother?  In short, it says that if your right
arm offends the left arm then remove it or cut it off.  So, if the Christians
insist on being Christian I think they should do it privately.  Not force
themselves in society.  Making it acceptable behavior because it is not.

This is the kind of reasoning that got so many books, movies, etc. banned,
the kind of reasoning that prompted an atheist to try and ban the bible.
What is offensive to you may not be offensive to me, and vice-versa.  If
we start outlawing or banning things because they offend someone, where
do we stop?
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:08:27 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Contemporary Christian Music

Oh, Scott, thanks for the recommendations.  I'm always looking
for good Christian music that I can buy for my kids especially.
Often, they are not heard on the local Christian radio stations.

I really like Twila Paris, too.  The Steven Curtis Chapman
concert was 'The Great Adventure' concert.  "Saddle up your
Horses" !  I also enjoy Petra.  My son, age 22, doesn't
like Christian 'rock'.  He saw Michael Card and really
enjoyed the concert.  Michael Card is another family favorite.
Out of the Gray and Susan Ashton were with Steven C. Chapman.
The music was good, but we couldn't understand the words.
I have heard Susan Ashton on the radio and enjoyed her music,
but I was disappointed by her live concert.

Carol
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:42:56 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A True-Life Parable
              20 Nov 1992 16:33:47 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:33:47 GMT Dr Nancy's Sweetie said:
>
>    a) that it is possible to convert others by argument.
>and
>    b) that any telling of the Gospel is a good one.
>
>On (a), I'll just say that I've been participating on computer networks for
>quite a few years, and on netnews more-or-less constantly since 1988.  I have
>seen Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons debate with mainstream Christians; I have
>seen Protestants bash Roman Catholics and RCs bash Protestants; I've seen
>Muslims talk down to Christians and Christians talk down to Muslims.  I've
>seen many different neo-pagan groups called `Satanic', and I've seen many
>different "major religions" called mind-control.
>
>And in all that time, in all those debates, I have never seen a single person
>convert from one religion to another.  Well over 200,000 articles -- maybe as
>many as half a million -- representing hundreds of thousands of hours of
>writing and reading, and I've never seen one that said "You're right, and I'm
>going to change my beliefs."  Never.

Darren,

I have personal knowledge (as recent as this morning) of someone who was
converted from Mormonism, and who cites this list (specifically one member
who posts to Christia) as being directly responsible for her conversion.
She praises God alone for giving her new life but recognizes that He used
Christia for His work in her, (and posted her change of heart to this list).

Madge McBurney
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:07:56 EST
From:         Christopher Taylor <ST802329@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military

I have been reading this topic with interest since it is a very prevalent
issue and I am greatly disturbed over the persistence of invalid sterotypes
and the treatment of homosexuals as offenders.  There is a growing body of
evidence which supports a biological basis for sexuality.  Also, in reading
and talking with gay persons, I have never heard a gay person refer to his or
her sexuality as a choice.  Their attraction to the same sex is as natural to
them as my attraction to the opposite sex is for me.  It also seems unlikely
that a rational person would choose a lifestyle which would cause him or her to
be ostracized, discriminated against, and physically or mentally assaulted.  I
do not consider homosexuality to be a matter of choice or a lifestyle.  It is
just the way they are.  A gay person is no less of a person and deserves to be
treated as such.  In addition, the love that members of a gay couple have for
eachother is no different than the love between two heterosexuals, and is most
certainly not wrong.  How can caring and love be wrong?  I think that hatred,
discrimanation, and sterotyping are far more deserving of the label 'sin'.  For
these actions serve only to hurt and destroy people.  Maybe if we can lose this
nontolerance and bigotry, which is equal to racism and sexism, we would
discover that we have isolated a group of people who are intrinsically no
different than ourselves.  The bottom line is that we are all people and to
discriminate against a person for being what he or she is naturally is wrong.
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:18:49 EST
From:         brennan@HAL.HAHNEMANN.EDU
Subject:      Acts 5:1-11

      Here's today's interpretation question ...

      In the judgement and execution of Ananias and Sapphira, which is
   being shown - the unforgiveable attribute of sins against the Holy
   Spirit?  or God's law over the law of the day (two corroborating
   testimonies of "all the money given") ?

      (haha!  I think I've opened the BIG can with that one!! :^)

      andrew.  (brennan@hal.hahnemann.edu)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Voice of Integrity, Fall 1992
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:48:11 GMT
Reply-To: <lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.



I now have online the Fall issue of Voice of Integrity, the quarterly journal
of lesbigay Episcopalians.  This one includes most of the texts of addresses
at our national convention in Houston in July, including the address of the
Presiding Bishop.   I will gladly send this to anyone who replies to this
message with the same subject and a one-word message:  YES.

Beware, the file is 194115 bytes long.

Louie

(This offer will expire on the Feast of the Circumcision)

-- 
  ==========================================================================
  Louie Crew, Assoc. Prof., Academic Foundations Dept., Rutgers U./NWK 07102
  lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu                                   201-485-4503
                            Closets are for prayer!
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: S096556@UMRVMA.umr.edu
Subject: Re:Are Christians still sinners?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:24:19 GMT
Organization: Univ of MO - Rolla

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:45:17 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Are Christians still sinners?
              21 Nov 1992 22:25:14 GMT from <S096556@UMRVMA.UMR.EDU>

>Lonnie:
>
>My earlier post was just a quick response to your post about your having
>been a Christian all your life. My point is that it would seem the majority
>of us were conceived in iniquity and sin with Adam's sin on our head and in
>need of the saviour from birth. Matthew says Jesus came to save His people
>from their sin. But if someone has been a Christian all his life, well, hey...
>what does he need to be saved from?
>
>Tom

Thanks for the politness Tom, but you know I believe that ALL human kind
were born in sin.  Everyman (every human soul, without exception or
exclusion) is in need of redemption and sanctification.

A person cannot be a Christian unless s/he has been saved by Jesus,
the Christ.  I did not assert, nor did I intend to imply (in fact,
I endevoured to avoid the implication), that I felt I had no need
of Christ as savior.

You had asserted that all men are sinners, to which I assent.
You drew from this assertion that it neccesserily followed
that no person could have been a Christian his entire life.
I asserted, and still assert, that your conclusion does not
follow from your premiss.  I am not certain your conclusion
is supportable, in light of the fact that Christians are
sinners, saved by grace.

I tell you simply that there has not been a time in my memory
that I was not aware of being a sinner, saved by grace.
I cannot argue that there was not some magic moment when,
"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandmant
came, sin sprang to life and I died."  Rom. 7:9
However, for me, the law that came was the Law of the Spirit
of Life in Christ, Jesus.

I can honestly, in clear conscience, claim to have been a Christian
my entire life.  I may indeed be wrong.  But I do not see that the
claim "No one has ever been a Christian his entire life." is supported
by the scriptures.  Particullarly not the arguement you pressented in
the post I addressed initially.

Lonnie Schubert
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:32:23 CST
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From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military

The Church does not have time to go around and defend gays in the military
but should be teaching and talking to people that they should repent of their
sins and that Jesus Loves them.  A sin is  a sin.  Being gay is a sin, and the
church needs to tell gay people to repent.   Why would gay people want to be
in the military anyway?  Why should we support them in their efforts if the
Bible condemns it?   I think we all need to pray and seek the Lord for all
the answers and he will guide you in the right direction.
Janie
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 06:23:33 EST
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Relayed prayer requests

On another list a woman wrote that her sister, Sue, has gotten in-
volved in New Age ideas and now claims that Jesus was just another
son of God like Buddha and Mohammed.  (Sue, obviously, has no knowl-
edge of Buddha or Mohammed, neither of whom claimed to be a son of
God.)  The poster asked members of that list to pray for Sue that she
recognize Jesus as God incarnate and her savior.  I have decided to
repeat that request on Christia.  Praying for the conversion of
unbelievers in general is a good thing, but it helps to have someone
specific in mind.

While I'm relaying prayer requests, a letter to RADIO FREE THULCANDRA
includes this statement: "Courtney Fluhr has been in Children's
Hospital with a collapsed lung: she has asthma.  Any RFT readers
interested in praying for the health of a child you've never met I
invite to do so."

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:13:33 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Hey, Eric

Excerpts from christia: 18-Nov-92 Hey, Eric "Scott D. Weberg"@GARFIE (114)

> Eric,

> How do I email you privately?  I tried ewanco@mlo.dec.com and it
> bounced back to me: host unknown.

> Scott

I hear rumors that sometimes it doesn't work. Try it again.  If you
still have problems, try ewanco@vertex.mlo.dec.com.

Eric
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Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:26:02 EST
From:         Mike Rahman <ST001156@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The True Word of Allah

Myself, I am not especially Christian, nor am I completely Moslem, but I
have been a close friend to many of both beliefs.  I find it sad that
someone who is on this list and presumably has some interest in Christianity
would say something that is hurtful to another religion.  Most Moslems I
know would not think of killing Rushdie if they had the option.  Most respect
Christianity and at the same time understand that the passages that started
this mess are fictional.  What the Ayatollah did in response was analagous
to the Pope putting a price on the head of the writer of The Last Temptation
of Christ.  I'm not suggesting that such an absurd gesture be made, although
according to my memories surrounding that movie, there were a fair number of
Christians who might have supported it at the time.  I'm not putting down
Christianity, but I am sorry to have to read something that puts down all
Moslems for the actions of one man who the majority of Moslems would
consider a crazy old man.
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:27:00 EST
From:         Tigerman <JGOSS1@ITHACA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The Gospel

Memo writes:

>Jesse,

>Have you read something from the RCC written during or after the Vatican II ?

>I guess you have not and that stuff is what is official now.

>Your argument is refused as invalid.

>Shalom,
>Memo.


        Please forgive my ignorance, but why does it matter if the material is
before or after Vatican II?  If it does, then what doctrinal changes did
Vaticann II institute?


                -tigerman

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*         953 Danby Road                                                       *
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:27:27 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The Gospel

Tigerman ;

Vat. II changed NO doctrinal items, but merely made changes in FORM of
worship, etc.

Consequently, I used to own a copy of Vat. II, with its Canons.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:55:59 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Counselling Advice

On Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:33:11 CST Tom Brewer said:

>If you remember, you can pray for my words and deeds to glorify Christ.

I'll keep you in my prayers Tom...let us know how it goes.

>But I must confess I am completely ignorant of a lot of the new stuff.
>(I sound like my dad.)

Don't you just (fill in the blank) when that happens!

When we're very very young we try to mimic our parents.  When we're
a little older and start to sound like them, we resent it. Yet a few
more years of growing up changes us again to where we cherish those
moments of remembrance.  It's sad to realize that not everyone has
the kind of parents that make it easy to remain connected with.

Madge McBurney
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:24:37 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: (today's) Second Interp. Question.

Excerpts from christia: 14-Nov-92 Re: (today's) Second Interp.. G.J.
McCaughan@CUS.CAM.A (1982)

> Here's an analogy, which I hope is not improper: A husband and wife are
> "one flesh". This is expressed (not caused) by the act of sexual union.
> (Actually, I'm sure it's not improper. The analogy between God/man and
> husband/wife is an important one, and well attested in Scripture.)

Huh??? Then howcome Scripture says that anyone who unites himself with a
prostitute becomes "one flesh" with her?  Obviously that isn't the
intention of the customer, is it, so it is the act that accomplishes the
union, right?

But anyone, I agree, I see a great and wonderful parallel between
communion and conjugal union.   I see conjugal union as a figure of our
union with God through communion.  Just as through the conjugal act, the
man's contribution allows the inert egg in the woman to become a life
that grows and is nurtured in the void of the womb, so God's essence
imparted to us through communion causes new life to grow within the
empty void of our souls.  A good reason why God is considered Father and
we are considered collectively the bride of Christ.

Just my thinking on the topic.

Eric
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