From: chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman)
Subject: Re: Greetings
Organization: City of Saint Paul Public Works
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:53:19 GMT

noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan) writes:
> chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:

>> Imo, the evolution/creation debate is yet another facet of what seems to
>> be a cultural war between the radical and/or religious right and the
>> progressive and/or humanist left.  I am particularly struck by the
>> similarity of mindsets between creationists and anti-abortionists.

> Here it is once again assumed that all anti-abortionists are religious
> zealots.  I am an atheist, anti-creationist, and anti-abortionist.

My mistake.  I hadn't posted in two weeks (got rusty, you know), and so
neglected to insert the appropriate qualifiers.  However, I invite you to
attend an anti-abortion demonstration so you can see for yourself the
religious content of the signs and the slogans.

> You attack a position by maligning its supporters.  This is, IMO, a
> poor tactic and detracts from the discussion.  This is slightly ironic,
> since your post is directed against such tactics.

No, no, I am criticizing a _mindset_ that refuses to consider observable
facts in formulating opinions.

>> Creationists pounce on every anomalous phenomenon not predicted by the
>> theory of evolution as 'proof' that the TofE is bogus, yet offer no
>> theory of creation of their own.  They accuse evolutionists of suppressing
>> data, but ignore overwhelming evidence that the earth was formed millions
>> of years ago and that life as we know it now is the result of millions of
>> generations of transformation and natural selection (Forgive my imprecise
>> use of these terms; I told you I wasn't an expert!).  I guess you could
>> sum their position up with the phrase, "Don't confuse me with the facts,
>> my mind is made up!"

>> I will leave my implied analogy to anti-abortionists as an exercise
>> for the reader. :-)

> I, for one, fail to see the connection.  I don't disbeleive Creationism
> because its supporters are idiots.  I disbelieve Creationism because
> there is no evidence for its veracity.  I do, however, welcome the
> presentation of new evidence should it become available.  Facts are
> welcome in any debate.

I note that you are not above maligning supporters of creationism either.
Nonetheless, I agree wholeheartedly with your last three sentences.

>> Imo, the efforts of creationists to gut the sciences of biology, geology,
>> astronomy and others is particularly insidious in light of the fact that
>> academic performance in mathematics and science in the U.S. is falling.
>> Add to that the resistance to effective sex education and birth control
>> (both of which would reduce the demand for abortion, btw), and it seems
>> that the slogan "Ignorance is Strength" could be carved over the entry
>> to the Pantheon of the Religious/Radical Right.

> I understand your outrage.  Indeed, I feel much of it myself.  I
> think we must refrain from dismissing a certain viewpoint merely
> because idiots espouse it, however.  You will find that there are
> idiots in every cause.

Agreed, with reservations.  Wrt anti-abortionists, I see all too often
an unwillingness to incorporate facts presented in this forum into their
thinking.  Very much like creationists.  This kind of anti-intellectualism
does not serve the future of our Republic very well, imo.

Having said that, I can't help noticing the irony of having you and Steve
Matheson, two fairly calm and articulate pro-lifers, appear in talk.abortion
just as I'm holding forth on the anti-intellectualism of creationists and
pro-lifers!  I also note with regret that you will not have net access for
five months or so.  It's a shame; your participation (and Steve's) could
do much to raise the level of debate in talk.abortion.

-- 
Chris Lyman    /   email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov   /    my thoughts, my words
    "If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that one of them
     is doing all the thinking." -- Lyndon Baines Johnson
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:54903 alt.flame:17807 alt.fan.kevin-darcy:688