From: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Kelly, Kelly... Why are you doing this?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 03:38:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


[Before going into this: I have no intent to insult KELLY or anyone else;
I simply question KELLY's motives, and wonder about the many inconcistencies
that I found in KELLY's article. If KELLY is insulted, my apologies. Tri*].

KELLY@SUVM.SYR.EDU (or nejat@anatolia or whoever@wherever) writes:

>   Since Mr.Mutlu has been re-posting and cross-posting some of my
> articles, there has been some confusion among those who do not read
> SCT very carefully. Although I am not in the habit of wasting my
> time to answer those who don't care to read articles carefully, yet
> do not hesitate posting ample commentary and speculation about such
> articles and those who post them, I will make an exception in this
> instance to clarify a few points:

Ooooh. 'Mr. Mutlu.' I am AWED. Like, Wow, Dude. Raaaadical. Far Out.

Well, KELLY (or Nejat, or whatever), lemme fill ya in on the details. 

I don't question the scholarly value of Prof. Shaw's work; Nor do I 
question his objectivity. It's the motive of the people (?) that post and
post and post and post and post and post and post and post and post  his
material for little reason other than to insult entire ethnic groups.

I have no problem with history; no country has a rosy history no matter how
you look at it. Sure, the Greeks threw babies down the cliff in Sparta, the
Ottomans burned and looted Ismir, the Germans in WW2 razed my father's
village, and so on and so on and so on. I don't question whether the events
happened; Characterizing a nation in 1992 based on the action of some
groups in the nation 400 years ago is idiotic to say the least. WW2 Germany
and Italy did more damage to Greece than most people think, and all we got
for it is the lousy Trolley lines for reparation, and hordes of German
tourists. Yet Germany is perhaps Greece's strongest supporter in the EC,
and one of its main trading partners. You don't hear us screaming about the
'German Atrocities of 1942', the 'Persian Atrocities of 200 BC', the 'Roman
Atrocities of 100 AD', etc.

If you expect that people will feel angry that the 'Greeks did this and
that to the Jews in 1450 therefore today's Greeks are anti-Jewish' yer'
wrong. But if you do believe this, then I'm one step closer to REALLY
believing Hakan's statistics (ie. Greece being 2nd most hated). At any
case, it would be very interesting to explain to us the motive for posting
all these articles; I can see Mutlu's motive in posting what he posts. It
is a bit of a coincidence that the same time he floods the net with his
articles, yours appear too out of the blue, then he copies your stuff (or
you copy his, whatever the case may be), and now you even start posting
from his future home machine... If you believe it's all a coincidence, boy,
do I have a bridge to sell you. 

>   (1) [So far] I am the original author of *all* articles that contained
>       excerpts from the following references:
> 
>      Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the
>      Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991).
> 
>      Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'Christian Anti Semitism in the
>      Ottoman Empire,' Belleten, C. LIV, 68 (1991).

Explain to us, KELLY (or Nejat, or whatever your name is this week), why,
oh why, the same articles are posted multiple times, to numerous groups,
and always clearly with the main objective of showing to the rest of the
world "Just how bad dem Greeks are". And why, in many cases, (MOST cases
actually, judging from the bait I threw at Hasan which he took hook and
reel) he would never cross post them to soc.culture.jewish, but rather, to
soc.culture.yugoslavia/bulgaria/soviet/australia/europe/etc etc etc. He
finally started posting his 12 a day to soc.culture.jewish, got  lambasted
by the regulars there, and then went back to a token 1-2 posts a day to
soc.culture.jewish. 

Also kindly explain to us, in light of the copyright issues now burning, if
you or whoever has Prof. Shaw's permission to post pretty much the entire
book(s) on USENET, or permission for the posts to be used along with
comments about 'little forks sticking out of peoples' abdomen', Mutlu style.

>  (2) As I pointed out above, Mr. Mutlu reposted and crossposted many
>      of these articles, usually a day or so after I posted them in SCT.
>      He did not ask for my permission to do so. (I personally have no
>      objection to his or anybody else's reposting of these articles,
>      as long as they are posted without modification. I should say that
>      I do not agree with his extensive crossposting and reposting, but
>      that's his choice. As they say 'Her yigidin bir yogurt yiyisi vardir.')

In other words, "Sta Arxidia mas kai mas, Kwsths Palamas". How about 
"Articles don't flood USENET. People flood USENET". How about I start
posting your stuff unmodified to comp.sources.x. Unmodified, of course. I'm
sure you won't mind (yea right). I'll even put your name on top.

>  (4) Mr. Mutlu (and anybody else) is welcomed to use my articles, as long
>      as the contents are not taken out of context. I am not a very good
>      typist, hence there may be typos which of course should be corrected
>      if detected before such reposting.

As Rob Milson and others have clearly proven over the months, expecting 
Mutlu to not use stuff out of context/misrepresent history/etc is kind of
like expecting Tri* to not eat all he can at the all you can eat day at
Pizza Hut. Anyone remember the famous '.....', 1905 atrocities happening in
1918, Prof. McCarthy's response to Mutlu, etc. Can't you see that all you
do is provide him with more fuel for his drivels?

>      If somebody reposts my articles, that does not mean that I agree with
>      that person's views, nor does it follow that that person agrees with
>      all of my views. (As far as Mr.Mutlu's articles are concerned, I agree
>      with most of the *contents*, but I do not agree with his extensive
>      reposting and crossposting. I also do not approve insulting people,
>      even though considering the caliber of most of his opponents, I cannot
>      help but sympathize with Mr. Mutlu. )

For years David Davidian, Rob Milson, and many others have tried to talk
reason into Mutlu (& co.). All we got back was Mutluisms, comments about
'Fino Culture', 'Pallikarya', etc. You trying to elevate Mutlu to some kind
of USENET Martyr pedestal is most pathetic. If you did not approve of his
insults, reposting, and crossposting, all you had to do is post a simple
note stating so (since email to mutlu-land is same as email to my
grandfather, i.e. kinda hard right now). Hell, at one point one netter even
tried to get the names of the Ottoman (tm) Empire's provinces, but Mutlu
couldn't / wouldn't respond.

But then we never saw a SINGLE Turk or Turkophile rise up to the occasion
and criticise Mutlu & Co. In private, I have many letters of people doing
just that. But not on the net... 

>      The above remarks regarding 'extensive crossposting and reposting'
>      now seems academic anyway, as I have not seen any articles by Mr. Mutlu
>      for a couple of weeks now.

Give it time. Much to my delight, they (all of'em) pooled their resources
and got a feed from 'The Mother of All Feeds'. Meanwhile I'm warming up
with others so I don't go out of shape. 

> One final note: I had been posting articles to SCT by sending mail to the
> following address:
> 
>     sct@cs.stanford.edu
> 
> For almost three weeks now, I have not been able to send articles because
> the mail I send to the above address is returned back with the message
> 'unknown user soc-culture-turkish.'  Mr. Cosar was kind enough to let me
> use another path to post articles. I think it is very democratic and
> kind of him to help me in this manner, as I know he would strongly
> disagree with many of the articles I had posted in TEL and SCT within
> the last couple of years.

Hmmm. I wonder how come you don't use Berkeley (R.I.P). You can also do it
from Ohio State, Freenet, and many others. Don't they have news at Syracuse
U? Don't they have any public access machines? out of 100,000 machines on
the net, you HAD to use the ONE? C'me on, KELLY, if that's  all the 'best
and brightest' can do, I feel sorry...

If it is democratic to give you access to post from 'his' machine, yo,
Ahmet, can I have an account too? Freenet's news reader is kinda silly
and it's hard to get thru the modems once in a while. I mean, according
to KELLY, I know you'd strongly disagree with many of the articles I
have posted in scg within the last couple of years... Where do I apply?

[Simple litmus test: if your account exists for 'democratic' purposes, and
not because what you post fits their needs, how come I can't get one
there?) Get Real, Nejat. Real Soon Now. ]

> I'll be back in a couple of months: You ain't seen nothin yet :-)

Isn't that just around the time Mutlu will be back on the net too?

> Nejat

Oh, that explains the pathetic "Thanks so very much, Nejat" in many of
Mutlu's articles.... 

Last minute addition. Welcome back!

Spiros



[Again, my apologies if I have offended you. I did not intend to do so.
If you wish to answer my points in private I'll be glad to do it. Tri*]

-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  by403@cleveland.freenet.edu
OUZO POWER                                 [Not Really In Cleveland]