From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Monothiesm in pagan cultures (was: >suggestion<)
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:57:23 GMT
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>>holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
: 
: Given that Pharaoh Akhenaten was also a monothiest, to the point of outlawing
: worship of any Diety save Aten, we see that Monothiesm in pagan cultures goes
: back further than one might think from these digs.<<

Dispensing with "Rosecrucian" camouflage, and "victorian" prejudice,
egyptologists have come to the realization that Akhenaten was not a
"monotheist." The god Aten was not his personal manufacture but choice of a
number of solar aspects of Re` that was already existing in liturgy long before
Heliopolis was the center of religious thought.

Akhenaten, was a heretical pharaoh that disliked his father, was diseased
and had a problem with being told what to do.

His wife Nefer-titi had a temple for the worship of herself. This temple was
excavated and recently reconstructed in part by egyptologists.

When we speak of monotheism, we may consider the idea of "one god" but in
practice it is the imposition of a "personal god" barring all others.
This is despotisim.

The idea of "unity" of a diety is not monotheism, exclusively.

Akhenaten's efforts was not to create a "new" religion but rather to go back
to the power and position of the Pyramid Pharaoh's traditions.
He was also afraid of the dark. 

It is amazing how the vitriolic spouting of a few people could digress
efforts for progress..


>>: (And here is where I reject your challenge...)
: 
: One also cannot ignore the possibility of Jewish influence upon both Greek and
: Egyptian culture.<<


It was more the other way around. Some of Tetrachs of Jerusalem studied in
foreign countries and spoke "Greek" in court, after the Roman custom.
Further, the sojourn in Babylon had far more an influence than the legendary
stay in Egypt. According to sumerian tablets, which I have seen, the people
called He-brew were considered no more than many people think of gypsies
today. Israel did not (historically) achieve credebility till it was a
nation in Jerusalem.


Even though, the Israelites were very ecclectic, in architecture, customs,
etc. their greatest virtue was the assimilation of other nations. According
to texts of their contemporaries, the Israelite was considered the worship
of Saturn. Their sacred day, or Shabbat started on the begining of the day
sacred to that god and the ideas of the Israelite is more founded on the
imagery of the god Ea of Babylon than anything one could find in Egypt. 

>>  On the other hand it has also been suggested that Moshe got
: the idea for monothiesm from Akhenaten.<<

I have come accross this too. The suggestion is that when the cult of Aten
fell and was dissipated, the faithful followers were thrown out of Egypt to
the wastes of the eastern desert. But this is not veryfied fact.

>>  To refuse to recognize this
: possibility is to ignore the contribution of a significant section of the
: populace, and thjus present a false picture of our past.<<


And what are you doing? This is why I *suggested* a "challenge" to begin
with. Unfortunately, rather than *doing* all that *some* people do is "just"
talk, with an attitude as if they knew what they are talking about.

This is alt.pagan not *talk.pagan*

The object is to stand together, not make dissimilar.

For all the *talk* of individual freedom and self expression, the criticisms
here contradict the very idea that so many militantly make *vitriolic*
gesture to hear themselves heard.

If you or anyone else cannot accept the "challenge" then fine. No one is
asking you or anyone else to personally accept it. But by the same token you
and anyone else should have the decorum to keep your mouth shut.
: 
>>> It just might bring up the quality of alt.pagan to that credibility where
: > others would capitilize the `P' instinctively when they make reference to
: > Pagan rather than sneer or think of us as te demeaning aspect of this word
: > implies....peasant. an ignorant person.<<<

Unfortunately, by the display or argumentative semantics this proves to be
the latter.
: 
>>: Using sources _in addition to_ those which are Jewish/Christian/Islam 
: in nature would serve to do this, but I do not believe that ignoring
: the non-pagans serves to increase our credibility -- quite the contrary.
: 
: -- 
: Daniel B. Holzman<<

I agree. But in discussion without that reference, regardless whether you
have use that source or not, it brings about a different form of expression
that might formulate a "pagan" approach rather than a disgruntled
monotheistic presentation.

Perhaps, the word Pagan, is in question. But as an alternative, I cannot
find an alternative that would be more succint.

Socrates commented that when one begins a conversation one must agree on the
words we use, less one may be speaking of pears whilst the other speaks of
apples. For this we have a "dictionary", where the general concensus of
opinion agrees with the defenition of a word.
We all can take apart a single statement and result in a caustic opinion.
But, that is not the purpose of discussion. Idea, and the evolution of an
idea is. By reasonable logic, reference and substantiating counterpoint.
But to simply make sweeping statements, without foundation or research on an
idea that is open to question...that's a different matter.

No one is refusing any one's right to choose. An appeal is made to *those
interested* for an effort. If you or any one else is not "interested", since
we can't see you anyway, why bother to give us your opinion? Is recognition
so important to you?  If it is, then post an exposee of that which you
believe in. For example: write an article on....Wicca. Report on Theodor
Reik's book "Pagan Rites in Judaism" In it he talks of sex initiation,
moon-cult, tattoing, mutilation, and other "primitive rituals".

Perhaps the problem is that far too many readers on the net are either too
preoccupied working, or "hanging out" or just trashing themselves when they
have free time rather than do some good homework and research in their spare
time.

Eshin-Fun