From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics
Subject: Re: RACISM???/Access to English schools
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:24:18 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 7949

Here we go: and I think I have heard it all now....

From article <12341@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
> In article (Steven C. Potter) writes:
> 
>>    I want my children to learn French - AS A SECOND LANGUAGE!
> 
> So why do you live in a place where the FIRST language is the one you
> want to be the second?

   Another attempt by Francois to deny the existence of an English
   community in Quebec.

   He at least doesn't seem to think it is reasonable for an English-
   speaking person to come to Quebec to join the English community here.
  (Even if he wants his children to learn French as a second language)

> 
>>   Wanting one's children educated in their own language when such
>>   facilities exist at public expense is not Canadian nationalism. 
> 
> No, but the existence of these facilities versus the non-existence of
> similar facilities (in french) in other provinces is a direct
> descendent of the british dominance in Canada (over the francophones),
> and is now called "canadian nationalism".

   The existence of English schools in Quebec is Canadian nationalism?

   Well, that is an interesting definition.

   Presumably, people who send their children to English schools in
   Quebec must be Canadian nationalists by doing so?

   Given Francois' apparent belief that Canadian nationalism is anti-
   Quebec (almost by definition) it would seem that anyone in Quebec
   who sends their children to English school must be anti-Quebec too.

   What a mess the Parti-Quebecois must be in!

> 
>>   Are you saying that Quebec doesn't care if French is one of the official
>>   languages of Canada too?
> 
> Why should Quebec care? No other province does.

   If Quebec doesn't care whether French is an official language in TROC
   or not - why do you keep trying to use the lack of French services in
   TROC as justification for denying access to English services in Quebec?

> 
>>   The problem is that I am English, there are English schools available
>>   at public expense (in my neighbourhood) and I do not have the right to
>>   choose the kind of education that shall be given to my children.
> 
> You came to Quebec. When you emmigrate somewhere, you are suppose to
> accept the rules of the place. If you don't want to, why go in the
> first place.

   Had the rules and the situation been explained to me honestly and
   accurately I would certainly have had serious doubts about the
   advisability of coming to such a racist, narrow minded, illogical,
   intolerant province!

   They weren't - and I came. Now I am here I have every right to try
   to do something about it.

   It has been, and will be, difficult but I believe I am making some
   progress. >>> The Chambers Report, Changing Alliance Quebec priorities,
   appointment of deputy minister for English education, media interest,
   formation of affected family group, feedback from lobbying effort.

   I have every expectation that this "Access to English schools" issue
   will be included with the Bill 178 debate next spring/summer when
   the notwithstanding clause is due for discussion (it runs out on Bill
   178 in December next year).

   I have every expectation that the Quebec government will do what is
   right. If they don't - at least I will have stood up for my rights to
   the extent that the law provides and will have given it my best shot.

   Failure - and I will leave!

   Some people have suggested that by the time the French majority in Quebec
   is ready to recognise the demographic truth to the extent that my rights
   could be restored - that there would not be much of an English community
   left in Quebec to have bothered fighting for.

> 
>>   I am counting on it. If I fail (you will probably be pleased to hear) -
>>   if I fail I will go back to Europe. I will not have my children suffer
>>   discrimination because their parents speak the wrong language!
> 
> Well, do so. Europe is not anglophone you know, so you will be
> confined to Great-Britain (unless you want to send your kids to
> non-public-funded schools).

   I will if I lose this one. I may if I win it.

   If I do I will not be confined to Great Britain - I will be free to live,
   work and travel throughout the EEC without let or hindrance; able to speak
   English or French or Spanish (my wife speaks English or French or Italian,
   My son speaks English and is learning French fast!) and I will do so in
   the knowledge that I am welcome. I shall be able to experience many older
   and more interesting cultures than yours and enjoy a better glass of beer
   every day - almost anywhere I choose. :-)

   Where such English language facilities exist at public expense (France,
   Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, ...) I may make use of them as I
   please.

> 
>>   English is not an official language in Spain.
> 
> Neither is it in Quebec: it is in Canada. Canada is a federation of
> states (called provinces), and so will (maybee?) be Europe. Each of
> its memeber states have their own jurisdiction on things such as
> education. If the European parliament decides that Spanish is an
> official language in the community, it doesn't mean that the UK will
> have to make spanish schools available to all.

  Wrong! You are trying to deny the existence of the English community
  in Quebec again!

  English is an official language in Canada, and Quebec is part of Canada.

  There is an English community in Quebec and that is the language they
  use - legally for the most part!

  In addition, if there were enough Spanish speaking families in a community
  in the UK I am sure that they would be able to have their own school at
  public expense. (I have already given you reference to examples of this
  "phenomenon"). - Whether Spanish was an official language of the EEC or
  of the UK or not! - and why not?

> 
>>   English schools are not provided in Spain at public expense.
>>   If they were I would do the same.
> 
> So, if I understand what you are saying, Quebec is worst than Spain
> because it offers EXTRA facilities, but with restrictions on them?
> Would you prefer the removal of all public funding of non-francophone
> schools accompanied by the removal of Law 101? That part of Law 101
> has one purpose: ensure that Quebec remains francophone, without
> punishing the existing anglo-quebecois. It effectively says to new
> arrivants that if they want to be quebecois they should integrate the
> francophone community, not the anglophone.

  There you have it folks!

  I said that if I were denied access to hyperthetically available English
  schools in Spain that I would complain there just as I am doing now in
  Quebec for the same reason.

  Quebec offers schools in English because there is an English community
  here. English is an official language in this country.

  Quebec is worse than Spain because it denies access to public services
  that are a available to other members of society; and those services are
  denied on the basis of when and where a person was educated - That is
  discriminatory, it is immoral, and it is RACIST!!!

  Your assertion that Bill 101 tells "new 'arrivants' that if they want to
  be quebecois they should integrate [into] the francophone community, not
  the anglophone" at least acknowledges the existence of the English
  community in Quebec (that you seem to be so bent on denying) but it
  denies the right of that community to renew itself with a fair share of
  the immigrants coming here.



  Your assertions are illogical.

  Your arguments are irrational.

  Your perception of reality is inaccurate.


-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||