From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: MEQ -- Its Editor and His Agenda
Date: 26 Jan 93 04:24:08 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In article <1jvu5cINNqlp@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>>>>>[Chris:]
>>>>>You (Center For Policy Research) and Wayne and MEQ consistantly
>>>>>label Jews and Zionists as racists, as you have done above. 
>
>>>>[Brendan:]
>>>>What kind of vicious lie is this?  No posting in the MEQ series,
>>>>nor any posting of its editor (me) has ever labelled Jews and
>>>>Zionists (in general) as racists.  Let's see if you are adult
>>>>enough to prove your claim or apologise.
>
>>MEQ #12.  Chaim Weizmann expresses his admiration of Arabs.
>
>So?  I posted the actual words of ONE Jew+Zionist.
>I didn't even comment on it, apart from the title, though it is
>VERY VERY clear that anyone who wrote similar things about Jews
>would be instantly stomped on and you would be first in line.
>
>What does that say about my views on Jews or Zionists in general?
>Did I claim that the views Weizmann expresses are representative 
>of Jews or Zionists in general?  Why don't you analyse Weizmann's 
>words for us?  Are they racist?  Are they representative?  Of who?  
>I will repeat MEQ#12 below for your convenience.

I just don't get it, Brendan.  The title says that Weizmann expresses
his admiration of Arabs.  But in the selections posted, no such
admiration appears.

Perhaps the title is meant to be *ironic* ?

	Irony: the use of words to express something other than and
               especially the opposite of the literal meaning.

	Admire: to wonder, to marvel at.  Ant.: despise.

I'm assuming here that you meant to be ironic, so your title actually
communicates:

>>MEQ #12.  Chaim Weizmann expresses his despisement of Arabs.
               
1. "What does that say about my views on Jews or Zionists in general?"  
Either you are the editor and owner of MEQ or you are not.  When you
put an editorializing headline on this post, which you just admitted, 
you should have been ready to accept responsibility for it.  In your 
MEQ disclaimer you position yourself as a neutral editor:

>Middle East Quotes is an occasional series of quotations on Middle
>East history.  The editor does not necessarily approve of the sentiments
>expressed in quotes, nor will he necessarily join in any discussion
>they engender.  Contributions are welcome but will not necessarily be
>accepted.  Full sources are essential.      Brendan McKay.

But the ironic cast, selectiveness, and lack of context in your post 
belie that pose.  It says that you don't have the guts to say 
forthrightly what *you* think about this text, preferring simply to put 
a heavy spin on it with your editorializing headline.  That way, you are 
not really available for discussion about what you have posted, as can be
seen in the evasiveness which I am now addressing: "What does that say
about my views on Jews or Zionists in general?", and can be seen stated
plainly in your disclaimer: "nor will he [Brendan] necessarily join in any
discussion they engender."  Only a real chicken-shit would come up
with a device whereby he can post to a political discussion forum and 
then be free in his own mind from any responsibility to back his position.
Position. As in editorialized content. As in agenda. Tell 'em MEQ sent you.

2. "Did I claim that the views Weizmann expresses are representative of 
Jews or Zionists in general?"  Why else did you go to such lengths, at the
end of the post, to remind the readers of TPM  exactly where Weizmann 
stood within the Zionist movement, and where his career progressed?

>   [extract from letter written by Chaim Weizmann, leader of the Zionist
>   Commission in Palestine, later President of the World Jewish Congress
>   and President of Israel; 30 May 1918]

When the HAMAS covenent was being discussed in this forum, Shaul Wallach
posted the entire document.  Could you do the same for this letter?  Or
did your source, "Doreen Ingrams, Palestine Papers 1917-1922 (Murray, 1972)"
cite only these fragments?  If that is the case, don't you feel bad about
quoting from a source document that you have not read in its entirety?  If
this isn't the case, you have done the author a disservice in slicing
up her work to fit your agenda.  If you don't have an agenda, why post
only these fragments?  Well?

>While you are at it, why not contribute something to the MEQ series
>yourself?  Just send me your favorite quote and be prepared to
>argue about sources and context.  If I decide to accept it, you
>will get a chance to veto the final product.  

But we *are* arguing about context already, Brendan.

-- Chris Metcalfe

>Brendan.
>
>=================================================================
>
>      MEQ #12.  Chaim Weizmann expresses his admiration of Arabs.
>
>   Dear Mr Balfour,
>   ...
>   The Arabs who are superficially clever and quick witted, worship one
>   thing and one thing only---power and success.  ... The British
>   Authorities ... knowing as they do the treacherous nature of the Arab,
>   they have to watch carefully and constantly that nothing should happen
>   which might give the Arabs the slightest grievance or ground of complaint.
>   In other words, the Arabs have to be 'nursed' lest they should stab the
>   Army in the back.  The Arab, quick as he is to gauge such a situation,
>   tries to make the most of it.  He screams as often as he can and
>   blackmails as much as he can.
>   ...
>   The fairer the English regime tries to be, the more arrogant the Arab
>   becomes.  It must also be taken in to consideration that the Arab
>   official knows the language, habits and ways of the country, is a 'roue'
>   [Fr. sly, wily -bdm] and therefore has a great advantage over the fair
>   and clean-minded English official, who is not conversant with the
>   subtleties of the Oriental mind.  So the English are 'run' by the Arabs.
>   ...
>   The present state of affairs would necessarily tend toward the creation
>   of an Arab Palestine, if there were an Arab people in Palestine.  It will
>   not in fact produce that result because the fellah is at least four
>   centuries behind the times, and the effendi (who, by the way, is the
>   real gainer from the present system) is dishonest, uneducated, greedy,
>   and as unpatriotic as he is inefficient.
>
>   [extract from letter written by Chaim Weizmann, leader of the Zionist
>   Commission in Palestine, later President of the World Jewish Congress
>   and President of Israel; 30 May 1918]
>
>   Source: Doreen Ingrams, Palestine Papers 1917-1922 (Murray, 1972).
>   Pages 31-32, quoting Foreign Office official archives.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Middle East Quotes is an occasional series of quotations on Middle
>East history.  The editor does not necessarily approve of the sentiments
>expressed in quotes, nor will he necessarily join in any discussion
>they engender.  Contributions are welcome but will not necessarily be
>accepted.  Full sources are essential.      Brendan McKay.
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