HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock vs. Sig!?
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:42 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan25.233216.28456@netcom.com> pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
#In article <9301250428.AA28006@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU> kgk@martigny.ai.mit.edu (Kleanthes Koniaris) writes:
##In fact, there seem to reasons to suspect that the Glock is *better*
##built: I have heard that the Sig has welding, rivets, etc.; 

	Welds, yes, rivets, none that I have seen.  Glock better built?
	Doubtful.

	Regarding the formed steel slide of the SIG, it is actually superior
	to that of the glock, overall.  It has the strength without the
	weight (not that it matters with a Glock :))  The clearances in the SIG
	are much larger than the Glock, which makes it a superior combat
	weapon.  You can load em up with mud and crap and they will keep
	shooting.  I am not so sure this is the case for a Glock.

##Of course, the Glock does have sloppy tooling marks, but the
##actual method of construction seems superior.

	Depends on how you view these things.  I look at it the opposite way.
	I believe the nearly total absence of any toolmarks whatsoever on a
	SIG is clear indication of superior manufacture.  SIG slides are 
	very beautifully made.  Even my P88 pales in comparison, what with
	all the sloppy machining done on the inside of the slide where I 
	suspect they think it does not matter.  BAH!  HUMBUG!
#
#There is no slop, no funny tooling marks, etc.

	Amen to that!
#
	-Andy V.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Atlanta Discount Ammo Address etc. Request
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:39 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jan25.172936.19961@cbnews.cb.att.com> webdw@mvutd.att.com writes:
#In article <1jpfctINNej8@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> jcbphoto@engin.umich.edu (John Clinton Bolyard) writes:
##Does anyone out there have this information - I'd greatly appreciate it!
#
#Bottom Line Shooting Supplies
#P.O. Box 258
#Clarksville, GA 30523
#Tel.  (706) 754-9000
#Fax.  (706)  754-7263


An addendum:  I ordered some plastic SKS magazines from them
a while back and they didn't work well.  I called them and
didn't get any hassle about returning them for full credit.
If I don't get complete satisfaction I'll post it but as of
now consider me a satisfied customer.
From: keith@orioncmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm [RELOADING]
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:59:47 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

How does one safely go about determining a safe load for an unlisted
bullet?  The more reloading I do, the more I see that it is far
from an exact science.

Here's the problem:  My local bullet supplier makes 125gr 135gr and
142gr bullet (hard cast) for 9mm Luger.  I currently use the 125gr
with Bullseye & Blue Dot.  I want to try the 135gr and 142gr bullets
(for IPSC minor) with one of these powders.  Of course, there are
no loads listed for either of these non-standard bullet weights.

If we take the Blue Dot powder, the published data gives:

125gr bullet  -  7.5gr to 8.3gr
147gr bullet  -  4.2gr to 5.5gr

For Bullseye:

125gr bullet  -  4.6gr to 5.0gr  (Speer)
              -  4.1gr to 4.4gr  (Hornady)
147gr bullet  -  no loads shown for Bullseye

So what would be a safe starting point for a 135gr or 142gr bullet?
Is there one?  Apparently, data sheets supplied with some Lee
equipment (powder thrower?) gives loads for 'ranges' of bullet 
weights, making this even less scientific.  Would 10gr increase in
bullet weight result in unsafe pressures if the same powder load 
is used?
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Recoil Formula
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:57:07 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <9301261811.AA11040@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
 >
 >
 >#
 >#        Well, I misplaced the formula for recoil and the boy wants a 
 ># Remington 7mm Magnum. Although I'd kinda like to have one, I'm semi-
 ># half-heartedly trying to talk him into a .270. I don't have anything in 
 ># comparable recoil except maybe an 870 3" mag. If someone could email the 
 ># formula for recoil I would appreciate it.
 >
 >
 >Bobby,
 >
 >You'll probably get a bunch of different ways to measure recoil.
 >I think the best mathematical way is this:
 >
 >Take the muzzle velocity of the bullet times the bullet weight, then
 >divide that by the weight of the gun.  Be sure the weight of the gun
 >and of the bullet are in the same units, either pounds or grains
 >(7000 grains = 1 pound).
 >
 >The result is a velocity, in feet per second, called the Recoil Velocity.
 >If you were to suspend your rifle on the end of a long wire, like a
 >pendulum, then remotely fired the gun, the bullet would go one way, the
 >rifle would go the other, and what you have calculated is the velocity the
 >rifle would attain. (this has actually been done).
 >
 >This of course, ignores many factors that affect _perceived_ recoil, such
 >as moving internal parts, the length of time over which the impulse
 >occurs, butt padding, sound, etc.  But it does provide a fairly good
 >relative measure of recoil.  It takes into account both the bullet
 >energy and the weight of the gun.

I disagree.  For rifles you mustn't neglect the powder gases' considerable
contribution to recoil.  note that if you load a 308 winchester and a 300 
magnum to the same bullet speed you'll use MUCH more powder in the magnum 
case and will get noticably more recoil. (same bullet weight, of course).

This is one reason why I recommend the 280 (7mm express), especially the 
improved version, over the fad 7mm Rem Mag which only gives a little more 
bullet speed with a great increase in powder consumption - thus more recoil,
more cost, and faster barrel erosion.  Of course, if you're DESPERATE for 
just a hundred or two more feet/sec it's your money, your barrel, your choice.  
On balance, though...  Folks who're stuck with tailormades (factory loads) 
must disregard, of course. 
-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: boyd@gauss (Mickey Boyd)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:10 GMT
Organization: fsu.edu

FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:
# I'm sure that this has been discussed earlier but after shooting in some
# 3-gun 'tactical' matches at Chabot Gun Club I believe that a 3" shell with
# #4 buck shot is the best round.  The reasons? At the longer distaces 50+ yds
# you have a better chance of hitting a bad guy with the greater number of
# pellets in the magnum round.  If you go to 00 buck you have too few pellets
# and with slugs you have to aim carefully.  The drawback is that these 3"
# shells really kick.  Any comment?

At 50 yards, BRI Sabot slugs would be my choice.  At that range, you have 
little chance of hitting anything from the hip anyway, so a little "careful
aiming" would not be unreasonable.  50 yards is a bit of a stretch for 
combat shotgun shooting.  However, those BRI slugs are incredibly accurate
(I have gotten 5" groups at 100 yards from my SPAS-12).  The 500gn internal 
slug is no wimp either. 

--
******************************************************************************
*                                Mickey Boyd                                 *
*                           Systems Administrator                            *
*              Florida State University Mathematics Department               *
* email:  boyd@math.fsu.edu  Office:  (904) 644-7167  Pager:  (904) 657-6425 *
******************************************************************************
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Trouble in MiraMesa
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:14 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1993Jan19.170624.15773@btree.uucp> btree!andy@UCSD.EDU
(Andy Bosik) writes:
#Hey Y'all!
#I have a dellemma at the house I live at.
#I rent a room a a friends house,and my friend
#likes keeping one of my guns,a Ruger GP100
#.357 revolver, in His room for self-protection.

Hmm, I can see how that could be awkward.  In the end though, you are
responsible (perhaps legally) for his use of your gun, so you should
probably insist that he practice with it.

#He seems to feel that once You know the basics
#of how to shoot a gun,You don't need regular
#practice,which I feel is an ignorant,and
#dangerous attitude.

I think that's a little strong, although I'd be hard-put to say
exactly how.  I do feel that he's wrong, though.

#What should I do? Should I not continue to allow
#Him to use the .357,hoping that nothing trajic
#happens due to lack of training,or rusty marksmanship?
#Should I just tell Him he's not allowed to use my
#firearms as long as He has such an irresponsable
#attitude,and hope no attackers break-in if He's
#home-alone? How often should a revolver user
#train? My personal feeling is that He should
#go shooting with me at least once a month.

I'd tell him that he can't keep it in his room unless he practices
at LEAST once a month, it being a revolver.  It's not like you're
asking hm to practice twice a week or something...

#He also has the attitude that if He ever has
#to use the gun for defense,He'll "Shoot em in
#the leg!".

Is he for real?  I don;t know how ANYONE could expect this, most
especially someone who doesn't practice!

A female friend of mine is Swiss; her father lives over there near Basel
and a disgruntled ex-employee has threatened to come into work shooting.
My friend's father, who is actually supposed to be a good competitive
shooter, intends to shoot him in the leg, if he comes to work armed.
When I tried to tell her that I thought his attitude was dangerous, she
said that 1) her dad is a very good shot and 2) there's no reason to
just kill the guy.

Aargh.

    don
From: emba-news.uvm.edu!bashiti@sadye.EMBA.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: Buying out-of-state
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:39:49 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility

#From article <9301211315.AA08309@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU>, by C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob):
# 
# 
# True, except that it doesn't have to be an adjoining state - one
# can buy longarms in any state, as long as both states' laws are
# followed.
# 
# I've found that many dealers would much rather transfer the sale
# through an FFL so as to avoid the hassle, however.
# 
# To compound the question, would non-residents be able to buy in IL?
# Obviously they wouldn't have the IL FOID card.  If they are able to,
# they would definitely still be subjected to the IL waiting period.
# 
     You actually pretty much answered your own question.  The law of 
both states must be followed.  If ther out of IL resident had an FOID then
he could buy no problem.  If not the law of IL is not being followed.
This is the same in NJ.  A resident can purchase long guns in any state
(he should display his rifle/shotgun card but I was never asked for it 
when I was a NJ resident), but a out of stater cannot buy in NJ since they
don't have a card.  There are cases where out of state residents hold NJ
cards, of which i've heard, but I don't know the details.  I believe the
easiest way to do that is have had one at a NJ address then merely change
the address with the Staties...

later,
AJ
From: rbean@netcom.com (William Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)


The pistol he has IS an Omega. Notice the twin  side extractors. How id you
like the G3K ? =) 
I've heard rumors that he use to compete in IPSC. is that true? 
-Will
I reserve the right to change my mind
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: SKS @ 20rd magazine
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:57 GMT


#The low cost and reputed reliability of the SKS are seducing me.

I'd buy one now while you can - prices won't get any lower, and there's
no telling what the future holds for the SKS.

#Is the 20-round magazine conversion reliable?

If you're talking about the one that looks like the original 10rd. mag
on steroids, then yes, it's very reliable.

Rob
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stoping power (Was: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm )
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:49 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <199301202352.AA02993@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

[ discussion of whether police records are public domain deleted ]

#I think it depends on the state, but in some states, (Texas, I think
#is an example) the police have no choice in the matter: There are
#places where the state government _must_, by law, make all its
#records available to the public. (Sometimes, you have to give
#your name and address before getting access to records, and
#I think court records of cases currently in progress are an
#exception...)


There are ways for the powers-that-be to circumvent even these
kinds of laws.  What is the definition of a "record"?  If
"records" or "files" are all that legally must be divulged
then anything which is not a "record" or a "file" may be
witheld.  This could include anything that hasn't been officially
entered into the filing system (although perhaps the item ought
to have been filed), personal notes made by the officer, etc.
It might take months or years for documents to become "records"
in an abusive jurisdiction.  Or they might just be "lost" or
"mis-filed".

For a really enlightening look at how the system can be abused,
read "L.A. Secret Police" by Rothmiller.

Since this subject may be straying from our charter I suggest
followups to misc.legal.
	[MODERATOR:  Agreed.]

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: rmihara@ocf.berkeley.edu (Randall A. Mihara)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: Walther??
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:30 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

In article <199301261908.AA05968@elf.wang.com> chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet) writes:
#cvakg001@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
###Think of it as only half the cost of a Walther. (-:
#
#The P88 is available for under $900 (I saw $840 I think) - far less than the
#$1500 list price.  I suspect that if you spent the difference between the
#Walter and a less expensive pistol on ammo you'd have a more "accurate"
#gun/man system.

There seems to be a great deal of emphasis placed on cost.  Don't you
think that the operating costs (ammo, targets, etc.) far outweighs
the cost of the pistol?  Usually, one goes through several thousand
rounds to become proficient with the pistol.  Therefore, I personally
tend to disregard the price, and make selections based purely on
performance.

Also, while the walther is machined with exceptional tolerances, it
may be susceptible to failure in unclean environments.

If you look around, you can get a P88 for as low as $700.  I got
mine for $750, which brings if closer to the Sig asking price.

Randy Mihara
rmihara@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best stopping power in handguns?
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:20 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1993Jan24.194422.29122@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#	+P and +P+ are within SAAMI.

Okay, I'll take your word for it.  The important operational point
was that older 9mm guns may not hold up well under the higher
pressure loads.

#A 145 gr 10mm would be more analogous to a 185 gr .45 than the 170-180
#grain slugs are, and would certianly expand in the 1200-1300 fps range.
#They are just starting to make things like this, I believe.
#I wondered why the Silvertip wasn't 155 gr rather than 175 gr.

I have 25 distinct samples of commercial .40S&W ammo, including bullet
masses from something like 85gr through 180gr, velocities from subsonic
through 1400fps, designs varying from FMJ and SWC through exotic hollow-
point plus duplex and Glaser Safety Slug.  I think the reason for the
prevalence of 180gr in this caliber (also in 10mm) is that that is what
the federal specifications are and thus what a large portion of the law
enforcement market demands.  I like to think that most commercial ammo
packages are the result of appropriate R&D, similar to a lot of the work
we do at the Proving Ground, but I don't know that to be the case except
for isolated instances.
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: HELP** 9mm vs. 38Super!!!!!
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:10:03 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> I regard the 38 super as a specialty IPSC round, and see little real
-> need for it outside the one special application.

 The story as I heard it (hearsay alert!) was that the Mexican
government frowns on its citizens posessing firearms in the same
calibers used by the Mexican military, which uses both .45 ACP and 9mm
Parabellum.  Thus the .38 Super is popular in Mexico.

 Since many of the early combat pistol matches were in the southwest
and in Mexico, many US shooters stuck with the Super so they could do
all their competition with the same gun and ammo.

 Ballistically there's not much difference between the .38 Super and 9mm
Parabellum, particularly if you consider the many variations of 9mmP.
Some people don't like the Super's rebated case, but that doesn't seem
to be a real problem.
From: cdt@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: The brush (WAS: Cleaning a Glock 17)
Date: 23 Jan 93 01:55:25 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <9301190825.aa06508@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:

# You get the point.  Glocks are extrememly low maintenance guns.  I wipe
# the internal part off with a rag an add a little oil and reassemble.  If
# a brush goes down the bore, it is usually a mistake made while cleaning the
# chamber.

Does a standard brush cause bore wear?  I've been warned against those
"cyclone" (or "tornado" or whatever they are" steel brushes for that
reason, and have never used them, but I understood that my bronze (or 
at least bronze-colored) standard Hoppe's brush was metallurgically 
softer than bores and thus could never hurt them.  

When a gun is really leaded, I don't mind plying the brush a bit; but 
then I see these writeups in magazines and catalogs that say things like, 
"pass the brush down the bore six times" and I think, "only six?"  Such
recommendations have got me to wondering now whether I'm beating the hell
out of my bores out of ignorance...
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT backup advice/instructions needed
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:01:50 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <cavasin.727425620@bach> cavasin@convex.com (Vince Cavasin) writes:
#
#can anyone give me a clue as to how to field strip an AMT backup?  I
#can't even figure out how to get the slide off (but then I'm no pistol
#guru). while your at it, is there any way to lock the slide back?

As I recall (I owned an AMT for about 2 weeks), you need to use an
1/8th inch punch and punch out a little pin in the slide. This little pin
basically holds the entire gun together. After punching it out, you have to
use a soft rod of some sort (wooden dowel, for example) to punch out
the..., er...um, I forget the name of it, but it's the obviously detachable
part right behind the ejection port. Anyways, run the dowel up through the
magazine well and hit it with a hammer to drive out this part. 

Then you can pull
the slide back, which pulls the hammer back, which causes the firing pin
spring to shoot itself and the firing pin out the back of the gun and across
the room, causing you to spend 1/2 hour searching for them (or, if you're
smart, you held you hand over the pin as you pulled the slide back :).

Perhaps the firing pin comes out before you punch out the part whose name
I've temporarily forgotten, do whichever makes more sense.

#
#also, how are these guns reliability wise?  

"Some work and some don't and you don't know which yours is until you
try it out" is what someone on this newsgroup told me. I never could get 
mine to shoot more than two rounds in a row without a jam.

#any comments good or bad?

Well, any gun which has the above reputation doesn't instill a great deal
of confidence. I decided that, even if I could get mine working correctly,
I didn't trust it to save my life, so I bought a Walther PPK/S and have
been very happy with it.

#are there any other guns out there in the same size range (tiny) and caliber
#that are a better deal?  

A Walther PPK/S will cost you more (perhaps even twice as much) but is
a well crafted and reliable gun. There was a big discussion on .380s a few
months ago in this newsgroup; check back articles or archives for more info.

#I like the colt mustang (if that's what it's called)
#but that's single action only, right?  any other recommendations?
#

I personally could never recommend anyone using an AMT Backup because of
it's reliability problems, not only the one's I had, but stories from others
too. I've heard that the Mustang is decent and I can heartily recommend
the Walther PPK.

	...Dave
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:05 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <PBLRXB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP>, by upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ):
# 
# The best all time movie as far as correct firearms handling is
# "Tremors". If you haven't seen it, check it out; especially the rec
# room scene.
# 

And that was acted by a hoplophobe as well.  Hmm, I thought he made a
pretty good villain (Michael Gross ?sp?) in the movie about the great FBI
Miami turkey shoot as well.

Rules of gunfighting.

1. Have a gun.
2. Have as much gun as you can manage (in all senses of the word).  (i.e.
   never settle for a pistol when you can have a shotgun, rifle, machine
   pistol, etc..  This is presuming you have a pretty good idea you're
   going to be in a gunfight.)  
3. Never assume that your opponent has signed, or even believes, the Geneva
   convention.  Keep firing until he is clearly either surrendering or not
   a danger to you and others.  If you are hit, keep shooting until you're
   either out of ammo (hope you brought your bayonet ;-{) ) or physically
   unable to continue (be inventive).
 
Please feel free to add others ;-{).  
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Value of AK-47 pre-ban?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:31 GMT



I've come across a pre-ban AK-47, with original pistol grip stock and
a bayonett.  Two 30 rd mags included. The owner is asking $400.  
I'm considering buying it. Is this a reasonable value?

Any ASAP responses would be appreciated. E-mail address below,

Thanks,

-- Dan


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Weed                                       weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
              "My comments are my own, not my employer's"