From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:41:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.234646.18912@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.161139.13531@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec29.141114.11620@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec28.210152.19416@arden.linet.org> joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Seems that Stephen Doe has done us all a favor by warping the subject very
>>>badly. Here are the facts:
>>>
>>>1) I have NOT made any theses or hard statements, thus I am indifferent
>>>2) This was meant as a poll for opinions, NOT an argument
>>>3) I can believe that some people are offended, but then say what your
>>>opinion is, DON'T flame me.
>>
>>I have a hard time believing you don't have an emotional attachment to
>>your thesi--I mean, "sincere observation."  Does the fact that it is
>
>You really are bitching as much as you can. I'm glad I don't have such an
>attitude.

You're the man who began the flame fest.  Live with it.

>>only a sincere observation mean you don't need to back it up?  Does
>>that mean we are assholes for pointing out that your pre-conceptions
>>*might* have an effect on your observations.  
>
>And when did I call you an asshole? And why can't your pre-conceptions work
>on your opinions?

Obviously they can.  Unlike you, I am aware of it and attempt to
correct for it.

>>
>>My opinion, Iikka, is that 1) IQ is probably not as good a measurement
>
>"The greatest thing psychologists have ever made."

Why?  Because it's an ego boost for you?

>>as you think 2) you have a huge emotional attachment to your position,
>
>Sorry, but you haven't given me any proof/evidence to think otherwise, 
>that's why my current stand is what it is. Nothing to do with emotion.

The proof is your flames in response to my original post, in which
you evince great hostility when I question how you reach your
conclusions.

>>blinding you to the possibility that even people as intelligent as
>>yourself may arrive at a different belief--I think you need this
>>notion of atheistic superiority to bolster your self image, hence the
>>hostility to those of us who pointed out any weaknesses in your
>>position.  
>
>I can't help it if the facts are hard. "Hostility"? You think I am hostile
>if I am not you in every opinion?

*Your* anecdotal evidence wasn't hard!  Jim Tims did a much better
job, when he posted that list of studies in support of this
correlation.  

Is it possible you *still* don't see the weakness of using anecdotal
evidence?  

You were hostile when you dismissed my concerns on the potential of ad
hominem dismissal of the religious position.  Go back and read your
response, and tell me it didn't sound snide and condescending.

>>
>>You could have saved yourself from getting flamed, if instead of going
>>on about my "emotional attachment" to Christianity, and other absurd
>
>I still find it ridiculous, even humorous, for you to take that statement
>as an insult. Maybe a weak excuse to start insulting me?

It was an insult because you used it to dismiss my concerns on this
matter, instead of rationally discussing the topic.


>>and insulting statements that anyone interested can see for themselves
>>in your previous posts, you had answered my posts rationally.  I think
>
>And how would've I had to respond if I wanted to respond rationally?

Gee, let's see how rational these responses are:

"This is not a bedtime story, and you are not (hopefully) a child."

"Must you have everything handed to you on a dish?"

"Try using your brain for a change."

Etc., etc.

>>most of us can see that your anecdotal evidence is a load of crap, and
>>that your criticism of my saying so has just been one long ad hominem
>>attack.  You've done a lot to show that atheists can be just as
>>irrational when it comes to deeply held beliefs as any theists.
>
>Does it give you a good feeling when you bash someone? You aren't doing
>much more.

Don't project your shortcomings onto me.  It probably gave you a
sneaky tittilating rush to start this flame fest.

SD
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:24794 talk.religion.misc:24968