HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 10 Jan 93 05:21:46 GMT
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

>	I happen to LIKE Stephen King myself, though I think Dean Koontz
>is better with his plotlines.

So do I, as a matter of fact. But lots of people hold him up as one of the
things wrong with fiction, because he's entertaining instead of
enlightening. I happen to like entertaining, though.

>>You want to fix the bookstores? you want better, literary books in the
>>stores instead of TSR, Gor and etc? Fix the schools, and bring up readers
>>instead of folks who spend their money on TV, Beer, and Video games.

>	Chuq, get off your high horse.

No high horse attached, Sea Wasp. A very small percentage of the American
public buys books, and that percentage is dropping like a rock, especially
with the tounger set. I'd MUCH rather have them reading Xanth than nothing
at all, but I'd much rather have them reading Gene Wolfe than Xanth. 

The only way you do THAT is by catching them early, teaching them to read --
and to enjoy reading on top of that -- and helping them learn to appreciate
good fiction. Popular fiction is popular because it's accessible. If you
want people to step forward and read the 'better' stuff, you have to help
them cultivate a taste for it. That means catching them in school and
getting them to understand there's more to fiction than TSR or X-men.

>	Schools don't make those kind of choices for you. Their influence
>on the choices of readers is going to be minimal.

Not true at all. The school is where the skills are learned and the tastes
are cultivated. You either run into a teach that turns you on to books, or
you go through life without them. I got lucky. Too few do.

>	PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES.

Damn straight. I'm arguing that they need to be given the tools to make
intelligent, informed ones.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: bujold and ellison q's
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 10:42:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.143128.16631@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, iqv@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
> 2 q's
> 
> 
> #1)  Is "Vor Game" part of a series?  If it is, what's the order for the
> series, and will it spoil it if I read "Vor Game"  First?
  Bujold has written nine books in that universe, not all involving Miles
  Vorkosigan.
	Falling Free		About 200 years before Miles' birth.
	Shards of Honor		Miles' parents meet.  Love at first sight. NOT!!
	Barrayar		Civil war on Barrayar, Miles is born.  The
				best yet.  Hugo winner
	The Warrior's Apprentice
	The Vor Game		Hugo winner
	Ethan of Athos		Features Elli Quinn
	Brothers in Arms	Very strange fun.
	The Borders of Infinity	Several short stories with a framing sequence.
				One of the novellas won the Nebula.

Read them in any order.  They spoil each other slightly, but only on minor
details.  The order above is chronological for the characters, not as they were
written.

> #2)  can anyone tell me what's up with borderlands press and City on the Edge 
> of Forever, the tell-all script book by Ellison.  I'm deperate to get this
> book, but I'm getting scared I won't be able to.

Just received their latest catalog, which says it should be available.
It was delayed due to Ellison's two heart attacks (!?).

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: lazarus@quack.sac.ca.us (Albert Sze-Wei Wang)
Subject: Re: bujold and ellison q's
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Distribution: rec
Date: 10 Jan 1993 08:29:00 UTC

In article <lairdb.726544303@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield) writes:
>In <1993Jan4.104256.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>>In article <1992Dec26.143128.16631@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, iqv@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:

>>Read them in any order.  They spoil each other slightly, but only on minor
>>details.  The order above is chronological for the characters, not as they were
>>written.
>
>I would disagree; Vor Game in particular is infinitely helped by an
>understanding of Barrayaran culture.  Not that it would be a mistake
>to read first, but as you read the others you would find yourself going
>"oh!  now i understand better!" quite often.  Honestly, I would read
>them in order of *publication*, or at least leave Vor Game and Barrayar
>until later.  (Note: IMO, Ethan of Athos may be skipped entirely, not
>up to the rest in writing quality.  Okay plot and situations, but sub-
>standard writing, and not really integral to the "series".  Falling Free
>on the other hand has only the universe in common (I don't think there
>are any shared characters with the Vorkosigan books) but is much better
>written.)

I've just been reading the books in order of chronology.  Things just seem
to flow better that way if you plan to read all the books eventually,
each event sort of building up historically to another event in the future.
I had some problems with the premise of the Warrior's Apprentice, but I have
to say that I am somewhat impressed with Bujold's handling of characters
over the books, from Shards of Honor, to Barrayar, to The Warrior's Apprentice
though I did have some problem stomaching the premise for the set up of the
main plot in Warrior's Apprentice.  Beyond that, on to Vor Game...


Albert

 

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
	Miles sat quietly, absorbing this most mitigated triumph. 
Elena would have been safe, after all.
	But not happy.  Hunting hawks do not belong in cages, no
matter how much a man covets their grace, no matter how golden
the bars.  They are far more beautiful soaring free.  Heartbreakingly
beautiful.
	He sighed, and rose to go wrestle with his destiny.
				-From "The Warrior's Apprentice"
				 By Lois McMaster Bujold
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Albert Sze-Wei Wang                          lazarus@quack.sac.ca.us
From: meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J. Meltsner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: R.M. Meluch: Recommended Books?
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:57:49 GMT
Reply-To: meltsner@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Research and Development Center



In article <1993Jan11.085717.15932@netcom.com>, noir@netcom.com (Noel
Ang) writes:

|>I've just finished reading _The_Queen's_Squadron_, by Rebecca Meluch, and was
|>wondering if anyone would recommend any of her previous works.  I've
|>read one previous work of hers, _War_Birds_, and I find both of these books
|>quite good.  I've heard mention of five other novels from her, _Wind_Dancers_,
|>_Wind_child_, _Jerusalem_Fire, _Sovereign_, and _Chicago_Red_.  Are all of
|>these Science Fiction?  Any recommendations are appreciated.

They're all SF.  Rebecca Meluch is a fine writer, but I felt _Chicago
Red_ was one of her weakest.  I particularly enjoyed the _Wind_ books.

For those of you who haven't read _War Birds_, please give it a shot.
It's the most intelligently written military SF book I've seen for a
long time.  My wife, no fan at all of most military SF, was quite
impressed with the depth of characterization and excellent
storytelling.

Meluch is another writer on my short list of "automatic must-reads."

Ken

===============================================================================
Ken Meltsner                        | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391
GE Research and Development Center  | Fax:  (518) 387-6474
P.O. Box 8, Room KWD270		    | Nothing I say should be attributed
Schenectady, NY 12301               | to my employer, and probably vice-versa
"It's probable, just not very likely." -- Fire Maidens From Outer Space.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gip207@sci.kun.nl (gip2 course)
Subject: Re: Amber: Triumphant Conclusion?!
Keywords: NOT! 
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:36:06 GMT

>In article <1993Jan6.141031.23013@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, baps0@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nicole Marie Craig) writes:
> Sorry I know this has been done to death but I've only just read a copy
> of Prince of Chaos - the american import with the words THE TRIUMPHANT
> CONCLUSION TO THE AMBER SERIES written in large letters on the cover.
> 
> I only have one thing to say.
> 
> HAH,TRIUMPHANT CONCLUSION MY *!@*.
> 
> where's the next book? I don't want all the details wrapped up - well I
> do but I'll settle for most of them. Please, please grovel, grovel etc.

I agree, Zelazny should write a NEW UPDATED CONCLUSION as far as I'm concerned.
Or just write some new Dilvish-stories (which I've been hoping for for ages
now), but please not let them be as big a disappointment as the `last' book
in his amber series.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: KSRobinson _Red Mars_... When?
Organization: fwa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:43:40 GMT

YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>In article <1if4fnINN48c@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
>ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole) writes:
> 
>>
>>
>>	I don't work for TOR, but according to _Publisher's Weekly_
>> the release date is Jan. 15.
> 
>   Maybe, but I saw the trade paperback of it in the bookstore today
>(Jan.6)
> 
>   Junsok Yang

Books almost always appear several days or weeks after their announced
"release date."  The same way magazine dates are usually the day this issue
is meant to go _off_ sale, "release dates" effectively mean The Day We
Expect To Be Finished Releasing This Book.  <g>

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: noir@netcom.com (Noel Ang)
Subject: R.M. Meluch: Recommended Books?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:57:17 GMT

I've just finished reading _The_Queen's_Squadron_, by Rebecca Meluch, and was
wondering if anyone would recommend any of her previous works.  I've
read one previous work of hers, _War_Birds_, and I find both of these books
quite good.  I've heard mention of five other novels from her, _Wind_Dancers_,
_Wind_child_, _Jerusalem_Fire, _Sovereign_, and _Chicago_Red_.  Are all of
these Science Fiction?  Any recommendations are appreciated.


--
  noel ang        |"Exercise Two:
  noir@netcom.com | There is a field of grain, each stalk perfect, which is
 -----------------| a field of men.  There is that which is perfect in all
  aol bluetokyo   | men, common to all, and to find that thing and touch it
  cis 71660,2034  | is to transform all men.  Now ask: is perfection
  gis n.ang       | certainty, and are we only perfect when we are dead?"
 -----------------/             --from "Queen of Angels", Greg Bear

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 05:10:12 GMT

In article <9301071850.AA01473@rutgers.edu> A10JBE8@niu.BITNET writes:
>I was recently strongly urged by a friend of mine to read "The
>Illuminatus Trilogy" by Robert Shea and Robert Wilson.  After
>traveling all the way to Chicago to find it, I bought it.  I am
>only half way through with the first book in the trilogy and I
>am not only completely enthralled, but I am questioning just how
>fictional the story really is.

I believe that Wilson and Shea have said that half is fiction and
half is non-fiction, but they're never sure which half is which.

Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16985 rec.arts.books:23947
From: oliver@madrone.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Oliver Sharp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 5 Jan 1993 20:19:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: madrone.cs.berkeley.edu

I'm curious.  So far, nobody I've seen has spoken up in favor of guided 
reading.  Am I the only one who has *liked* my literature classes?  I'm
a voracious reader and am quite capable of drowning myself in piles of
books all on my own, so it isn't a desire to be spoon-fed.  Nevertheless,
I've discovered many splendid and gloriously written books in the reading
lists for courses.  I was lucky enough to have several inspiring and
insightful professors who opened up new worlds for me.  

For instance, I will never forget one particular lit course I was taking
at the local college when I was fourteen; I was fleeing from the ghastly
stupidity perpetrated at my high school in the name of English.  The
teacher went through the reading list, which included quite a bit of
poetry.  Ugh.  My only exposure to poetry thus far had been well-meaning
attempts to force hapless young students to *write* it.  And then we 
read Wordsworth, and Blake, and Frost, and it was glorious.  In one
particularly shining class, we went through _The World is Too Much With 
Us_.  He asked us what we thought, suggested other interpretations, 
explained some of the references both implicit and explicit.  

Didn't anyone else have the same luck?  I've had my share of unguided 
epiphanies, but I can't think of a better gift one person can make to 
another than to encourage their interest in literature with gentle
guidance.  This is not to say, of course, that rigidly defined and
rigidly taught courses with its victims in shackles are a Good Thing.
But for heavens sake, what could be more charming than the encouragmenet
of a genuine book lover through the meadows and thickets of the printed
word?

Cheers,
- Oliver
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF starter kit
Date: 6 Jan 1993 02:28:00 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu


Thanks for all the replies so far. However, i'd like to request that
those sending me lists of books for the primers include some info on
the books, explaining what area of the genre it covers. 

Thanks.
Chua
+==+
From: rog (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Keywords: kill files
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:30:24 GMT
Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk
Organization: Electronics Department, University of York, UK

In article <1988@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>I am not aware of a single (positive) character in any of his books who
>could not be accurately described as a WASP American. If they are not
>WASP's then it is incidental.
The main character in 'Starship Troopers' was certainly not white.

  rog.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Subject: Re: Xenocide Sequel? SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!
Organization: fwa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:07:57 GMT

dac@prolix.apana.org.au (David Andrew Clayton) writes:

 >Rubbish.  Card wrote the book, and it got too big, so he [and/or
 >his publisher] split it into two.  This was theorized [proved?]
 >last year.  Expect the sequel out this year, IMAO.

What wonderful facts are "proved" daily hereabouts.  In the sense that Scott
probably originally meant to get further in the Ender narrative than he
ultimately did, I suppose you can say he "split it in two," but the second
of the two remains unwritten as far as we're aware.  Meanwhile, I assure you
that his publisher didn't split anything in two.  Signed, His Publisher.

 >If there is no sequel for Xenocide published in the next 14
 >months, I will send you a cheque, in British Pounds, for 50.  Of
 >course, this depends on your participation in the wager [$A100
 >should do - 1.00 = $A2.20].

Oh boy!  Can I join this bet?  By the way, you lose.  <g>

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Barbara Trumpinski)
Subject: Re: ``The Gripping Hand'' is here!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:44:27 GMT

In <1993Jan5.180154.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalo.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>In article <1993Jan1.040453.2573@ulysses.att.com>, smb@research.att.com (Steven Bellovin) writes:
>> I didn't see if there were any other copies, but I didn't look very
>> hard; I simply grabbed my trophy and held on to it, *hard*.  

>Prepare to be disappointed.  I spoke this weekend with someone who was
>asked to review it.  She found it barely worth reading.  Then she went
>back to *Mote* and re-read it.  Yup, it was a really good SF novel. 
>Nothing wrong with her-- it's just that *The Gripping Hand* was dull
>and disappointing.

>"You mean," I said, saddened but not really surprised, "the heroes of
>our youth have failed to deliver?"

>The ever-aphoristic Barry Gehm overheard this conversation. 

>"The heroes of our youth," he intoned, "have fyunch-clicks of clay."

sigh.....sniff.  and we STILL don't have it in c-u....

barb "a bad niven pournelle collaboration is better than none" t.
--
***************************************************************************
conan the librarian a.k.a. kitten           /\ /\  barbara ann 
"my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?"      {=.=}
                                              ~   trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu 
"love is the wild card of existance"
                          rita mae brown

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: al@iris.claremont.edu (ere i am, jh)
Subject: KSRobinson _Red Mars_...  When?
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date:  6 Jan 93 16:33:03 GMT



Did I get the color right?  I knew it was either red, green, or blue.
Anyway, if you know when it is due to be released or have seen a copy,
let me know.  Mr. Tor executive?
-- 
Michael L. Medlin  al@iris.claremont.edu
"Why not stop by and tell me what the trouble was
 I couldn't care less ha ha but my double does
 And he told me that we're both superseded
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ladyk@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Catarina Ang)
Subject: Help!
Summary: Does anybody know...?
Keywords: Robin McKinley
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:50:00 GMT

	As my first posting to rec.arts.sf.written (congratulate me, I
only discovered it today), I've an inquiry to make...
	Does anyone know if there are any more Chronicles of Damar out,
or coming out? In 'Hero and the Crown', Aerin dreamt of, at the Lake
of Dreams, I think, a girl with black hair, a girl of yellow hair
(that's Harry Crewe in 'Blue Sword'), and two men staring at a rock face
(I think). I'd like to know if the books relevant to those visions have
appeared anywhere.
	Please post to me, however belatedly, if you have any
information regarding aforesaid to ladyk@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au

	Thanks.
-----
	Lady K
 A ripple of laughter drifts to your ears ... and is cut off abruptly as
the door to the Ivory Tower slams shut.
-----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: hunt@oils.ozy.dec.com (Peter Hunt)
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Reply-To: hunt@oils.ozy.dec.com (Peter Hunt)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:44:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.090716.1677@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,  (David Ingham) writes:
|>  Character motivation is the reason for the story.  The
|> fantasy setting is just were Donaldson decided to place his story.  Could
|> Covenant work in say a SF setting? 

	I agree that the fantasy setting was just that; the story was really
about the relationships between the characters and about Covenant coming
to terms with making choices about his actions, yet being a leper.

	But in an SF setting? I don't think it would be quite as effective.
The whole concept of Earthpower, with the Lords and their talismans being
merely conduits of that power, would have to be replaced. In an SF setting,
the power of the Lords would have to come from political or military power.
Foul would have to change from being an evil being who is destroying the
fundamental nature of the Land itself, to an alien who is destroying something
less fundamental, or something apparently less vital.

	One of the critical events of the story is the healing of Covenant's
leprosy though hurtloam; this sparks the necessity for his unbelief. For
him to be healed by advanced medicine in an SF setting doesn't have the same
impact as him being healed by the vitality of the Land itself.

	So while Covenant's internal struggles, and the events
themselves, could be transplanted to an SF setting, many of the underlying
themes would have to be replaced. And I think you would lose something.
--
+---------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Peter Hunt                | I'm digging in the dirt,                       |
| Networks and Comms (Aust) | to find the places I got hurt,                 |
| Digital Equipment Corp.   | to open up the places I got hurt.              |
+---------------------------+--------- Peter Gabriel, "Digging in the Dirt" -+
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Author Polls: QUESTION
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:52:28 GMT

jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Robert Leavitt):
>1) Why is nobody responding?  (Bad author choices, mail problems, 
>lack of interest?)

I've responded to most of the polls, but not the last few.  I'll confess
to a lack of interest.  There seem to be two motivations for such polls,
neither of which I share.  First, there's ranking fever -- I know which
books I liked and it doesn't much matter to me whether others' rankings
closely match my own.

Then there's "I'd like to try this author, but my time is too precious
to risk, so tell me which book to read first" -- but by the time an
author has enough books to warrant polling, I've generally read several
of them anyhow.

More generally, the people in the best position to answer the polls
(ie, the ones who have already read the books) are the ones with the
least motivation to do so.  Especially on an on-going basis.  

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

  The surface of the strange, forbidden planet was roughly textured and green,
  much like cottage cheese gets way after the date on the lid says it is all 
  right to buy it.--Scott Jones

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer)
Subject: Re: SF starter kit
Organization: Indiana University, University Computing Services
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:50:00 GMT

gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy Middleton) writes:
| In article <1icba3INNglp@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
| > 
| > For military SF, try:
| > 
| > Soldier Ask Not (Dickson)
| > Naked to the Stars (Dickson)
| > The Forever War (Haldeman)
| > Starship Troopers (Heinlein)
| > Bill the Galactic Hero (Harrison -- comedy)

IMHO, I think that it is especially important to read Starship
Troopers before Bill the Galactic Hero in order to get the full
effect.

----
Chuck Stringer
E-mail cstringe@ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written