HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares) 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:07:05 GMT

In article <asuccop.711847554@milton> asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop) writes:
>
>	who are 'so many homosexual realtionships'?

The ones that I'm familiar with (on a verry surface level, and the ones
my SO is familiar with. 

>	'gay' or 'lesbian' or even 'same gender' is usually better-
>	recieved than the clinical 'homosexual'.

Sorry for offense; since I didn't want to type "gay or lesbian" all the
time, I just settled on the one word homosexual since it's easier.
Pardon for any offense. 

>	i think some folks do butch/femme 'coz they find it a turn on.
>	butch/femme can be an apprearance thing, or a who-does-what-to-
>	who-vanilla-sexually thing, or a sm/leather dom/sub thing.

Okay. 

>	to make the assumption that queer folks do butch/femme as part
>	of a blind buying into gender role stereotypes seems foolish.

That's why I posted the question.  It did seem unusual, and I was
wondering if anyone had any input. 

>	butch/femme elements of het relationships can be expressions
>	of persoanl preference or style rather than evidence of hetero-
>	patriarchal repression & limited roles; the same can be true
>	in same-gender relationships.

Gotcha.

>	annemarie
>	asuccop@u.washington.edu

Thanks for you answer; I hope you don't think I was asking anything
stupid; it was sincere curiosity from someone who knows little about
same-sex romantic relationships (if you prefer that term).

Blessings,
Janis
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Body Count/Cop Killer was (stereotypes - and a request)
Date: 28 Jul 92 23:35:36 GMT
	<12478@inews.intel.com> <1992Jul27.152618.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>

In article <12478@inews.intel.com>, 
pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
... but then again I've never really thought of heavy metal as particularly 
socially redeaming. 

In article <1992Jul27.152618.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> 
holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
That makes one of us.


Good point! I should have said except for AC/DC, Ramones, Foghat, Ozzie,
Aerosmith, and of course who could forget that most memorable classic, Zep's 
Stairway to Heaven: Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long 
run, there's still time to change the road you're on. Kind of a binary tree 
search theory of life, eh? Now where's that confounded bridge, has anybody
seen my bridge? What should I care, it was she who taught me to walk this
way.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Men are Scum etc.
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:34:01 GMT
	<1992Jul22.042429.20389@qiclab.scn.rain.com>

In article <1992Jul22.042429.20389@qiclab.scn.rain.com> 
sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:
>northern hunting tribes moving south and conquering the goddess
>matriarchies and destroying them. women in biblical times did not own
>land or hold positions of leadership/power - they were very much
>forced to depend upon the men. for a woman to speak out against the 
>system would have had very grave consequences - homelessness, abject
>poverty, banishment.

In all seriousness, I think the penalty would have been more like gang rape
with the possible end result of someone taking you in as a slave but 
far more likely a violent and public death as an example to others about
who is boss. The bottom line is that as a general rule, men are much larger
and stronger than women. And so you have warfare which is none other than
the justification of taking other's rights. Standard practice during this
time was for the wining army to kill all the men of the village, castrate the
boys, and distribute the women and girls as booty. That is all just truth,
how you react to it is your's. Personally, I just don't see size or physical
strength as justification of dominance. I don't see any reason for dominance.
But it is still here, with us today. We call it rape.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: FORTMAPL@UDAVXB.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU ("Paul Fortman : free spirit")
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Bea Arthur
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:12:00 GMT


	From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
	Newsgroups: alt.pagan
	Subject: Re: something I just wanted to complain about
	> 
	> Personally, Bea Arthur *is* one of the few females that I would even
	> condsider as a "turn on."

Cool!  Another Bea Arthur fan.  

I think Bea Arthur is very sexy.  

*Pooh Bare

fortmapl@udavxb.oca.udayton.edu
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: the work "warlock"
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:37:53 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

A small point of correction. Susan said "warlock" came from "Scots Gaelic".
Warlock is Old English (and probably also Old Scots, which is NOT a Gaelic
language.

It certainly did mean "oathbreaker" or "traitor" and has little to
do with male witches other than by (non-witches) association. 

A nasty word that was applied as a put down.

Blessings 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
From: system@korova (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: More Crone Images (was re: stereotypes)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:45:13 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> Goddess:  Maiden (waxing moon), Mother (full moon), and Crone (waning moon); 
> however, I also have the Dark Goddess, who is the Dark Moon.  She is the 
> Morrigan, Kali, Morgana (my usual name for her, since I tend toward Cymraeg).

i as well, have a fourth goddess, i.e. she-who-has-no-face, or the dark 
moon. akasha is the goddess i tend to correlate with this aspect. i also 
like to symbolize the transition between life and rebirth or beginning 
and end with this aspect. she governs the ether...her color, for me, is 
grey.
squid

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Newest NetWitch...
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:09:52 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

Hi again! Just thought that, as the newest NetWitch(tm) I should 
introduce myself. My craft name is Donal. This is also my stage name 
(I am a Singer/Songwriter) and my SCA name (See my .sig below). I am a 
recovering Catholic, and have been Pagan since roughly '84. I am 31 
yrs old, and have very recently apprenticed to the Crystal Shadows 
Circle, a Welsh Celtic Wicca path, in Houston, Tx. CSC is an 
incorporated church in the state of Texas, and my recent (Beltane) 
handfasting has the appropriate legal document. At this time I am still 
a novice of that coven. I also run a BBS, the Brewer's Witch 
+1 713 272 7350, and am having a baby in September.
I am a computer programmer by day, a Singer/Songwriter by night, a 
weekend Mead brewer, and a full-time, open pagan. Any questions?

Blessed Be!

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!donal 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:54:08 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Jul21.193315.15180@linus.mitre.org>, heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
> In article <70282@apple.Apple.COM> russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams) writes:

>>I have to agree with Janis: when I hear people  complaining about
>>affirmative action or men complaining about women-only
>>groups, etc. my reaction is: get real.
> 
> I beg to differ.  What if there was a white man's congressional caucus,
> as there are for women and blacks?  What if there was a National
> Association for the Advancement of White People?  What if there was a
> Hetero Rights Organization?  All of these would be labeled harmful and
> reactionary out-of-hand, regardless of what they actually did.

Usually by default, every organization not specifically devoted to
minority issues is a kind of Association for the Advancement of White
People.  Well, White Hetero Men actually.  Those organizations that
have formed with names like these, tend to be Klan or Neo-Nazi
groups.   Which have been somewhat harmful and reactionary. 

Many men's groups are forming these days without being automatically
labelled as such.  Although Bly's group got a rather harsh review in
Ms. magazine a couple months ago.  Not completely undeservingly.  I
think Bly is a bit twisted myself.  My men's group met with some
skeptacism when it was first formed.  But I think that has mostly died
down. 

>>You're just a selfish kid
>>who's had all the toys and is complaining about having to share them.
> 
> I disagree.  There is more than enough to share... it seems to me,
> however, that we're not talking about sharing.  It seems the various
> protest organizations are interested in the pendulum swinging the other
> way, rather than having it come to rest in the center.  Why?

I am not sure this is true.  Although I do remember an early slogan of
the women's movement that went something like, "If you are aiming for
equality, you are aiming too low."  But I haven't seen too much of
this.  I am kind of a female supremicist myself, but I don't think
that is the norm.  I don't think you are a selfish kid, but I do think
you are highlighting extreme positions to discount what these groups
are saying, or more importantly, what people here are saying. 

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:26:44 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2A6C9E21.29940@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <l6odjjINNa0@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>>In article 25296@geppetto.encore.com, aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:

>>You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
>>to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
>>thing went out 2000 years ago.

>You carry NO guilt for what was done by people long since dead.  But
>when you do nothing to help the situation get better, you DO bear guilt
>for perpetrating it even tacitly.

>I'm not asking men to say, "We are total scum for doing these awful
>things to you."  All Id fucking like to hear is, "We are sorry that
>these horrible things happen, and we will do our damnedest to stamp them
>out of existence.  It will not continue into the next generation of
>men."

Janis, I for one AM trying to stamp it out.  One person at a time.  But I cannot do it alone!  Nor can all men do it without the help of women.  It's a two-way street here.  Group dynamics, ya' know?

>And I'd like to see women just once boycott the cosmetic industry, or go
>for a good solid month without shaving our legs, even though THAT (and
>nothing else that I've said so far) is stereotypically feminist.

Why stamp out the cosmetics industry?  Hell, if I could get away with it, I would be one of the people buying the products!  But, you're average rent-a-cop living in the "Bible Capitol of America" (Wheaton, Il) it just doesn't work that way, if you want to stay employed.  (And my boss is willing to go along with a LOT of things outside the norm.)

[<ZOT!> Stuff deleted to save bandwidth]

>Oh so much bullshit.  He isn't witch burning.  All he's saying is that
>if you bitch and moan about White Oppression, why aren't you equally
>bitching about other forms?

>As I said previously, Hitler was not the most guilty.  He started the
>ball rolling.  The masses who did nothing to stop him and who actually
>subscribed to what he said were infinitely more guilty.  They allowed
>the cancer to spread when it could have just died out.
>
>If you do nothing to rectify a bad situation, YOU ARE GUILTY OF
>PERPETRATING IT, even if you didn't get it started.

Let's be specific here.  What EXACTLY is Hitler guilty of starting?  (WWII, etc all, I know.  But I'm refering to discrimination.  It all existed in various forms somewhere before hand...  Okay, perhaps not killings on THAT SCALE, but you get the picture...)

DISCLAIMER:  I am not making Hitler out to be a good guy either...  I'm simply stating that he started off with ideas that weren't completely origional...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:28:36 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <70282@apple.Apple.COM>, russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams) 
writes:
> I have to agree with Janis: when I hear people  complaining about
> affirmative action or men complaining about women-only
> groups, etc. my reaction is: get real. You're just a selfish kid
> who's had all the toys and is complaining about having to share them.

I think I would have less trouble with women-only groups if they didn't come
hot on the heels of attacks on every men-only space around.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:56:54 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

Wait, wait!  I've got it!  Let's leave alt.pagan just as is, but add
"alt.rant.misogyny" or maybe "alt.rant.bigotry" or perhaps even
"alt.rant.social.injustice", and those who really want to rant about
those things can do it there, and let us get on with talking about
religion.  Tho' I suppose the next splinter after that would have to be
"alt.rant.who's.really.pagan".  Sheesh, there wouldn't be anybody left
after that but the "Gosh, what's Wicca?" crowd.

C'mon, folks, ain'cha got anything better to talk about?  This group has
really taken a slide since I last checked in five years ago.  Bleh.

B*B
Leigh Ann
--
Leigh Ann Hussey Oster
leighann@sybase.com			DoD#5913	AMA#624549
Siobhan ni hEodhusa
"They're mine!  All mine!  And what's mine is mine!" - Daffy Duck
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:18:24 GMT

In article <3220005@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> radzy@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Lynne Radzykewycz) writes:
>The title says it - I'm looking for movies with positive pagan themes, 
>characters, situations, etc. in them.  The entire movie does not need 
>to be about pagans or paganism, but should present paganism is a positive,
>or at least neutral, light.  I've seen enough bad examples, see next
>paragraph....
>
>What brought this up is that I was flipping through T.V. channels late 
>one night recently, and came across a movie titled something like 
>"Martin, King of the Witches".  It looked like utter trash.  I also 
>remember watching a movie about 10-15 years ago (can't remember the title) 
>where a teenage girl used pentagrams and spells to get revenge on her 
>high school enemies. 
>
>Any leads? 

try "the whicker man" starring edward woodward and britt eckland. made
in the seventies, i think, filmed in the uk and containing lots of
pagan ritual. 
sally

>Lynne Radzykewycz
>-----------
>lynne@hpnst.mayfield.hp.com
>
>


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: CFV:soc.relgiion.wicca?
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:04:41 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul20.180607.18622@lmt.mn.org>, ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org 
(Ciaran Benson) writes:
>   Shouldn't it be "soc.religion.wicca", instead?

Excellent idea.  WHat is the proper forum to formally submit the Call for
Votes?
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:31:09 GMT

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
: 
: (I am one of those people who "came out of the closet" as Bi a few years back,
: and then realized "no I'm a breeder" then "No I'm Bi", and THEN (finally)
: "I'm primairily a breeder, but have some gay tendencies."  And I can verify
: how there were some people in the gay community who were true assholes in that
: "No, they KNEW damn well I was gay", and some who wouldn't have anything to do
: with me, because I wasn't 100% homosexual...)

Funny how there are intolerant people in every group you encounter - including
those that are treated the worst by 'normal' society. The biggest problem is
that these same people are totally blind to their hypocrisy.

Bill
From: brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Loreena McKennit: The Visit, etc.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:23:31 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:

> Loreena McKennit is a wonderful Canadian folk artist and harpist.
> She has four CDs:
> Elemental
> To Drive The Cold Winter Away
> Parallel Dreams
> The Visit
> 
> I heartily recommend all of them, but only The Visit is available widely.
> Her Canadian label is Quinlan Road Records, which you can reach by 
> writing:
> Box 933, Stratford, Ontario
> Canada N5A 7M3.

Thank you for the suggestion! It sounds like some beautiful music. I will
forward the above information to my favorite local stores (Lucia's Garden
& Magickal Cauldron) and see if the can get them for me.

Blessed Be


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!donal 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Oppression is Oppression is Oppression...
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:53:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.064757.8326@wolves.uucp> wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us writes:
>
>[Several excellent points about racism, sexism, etc. deleted for bandwidth.]
>
>Can we agree on:
>
>	The inherent dignity and worth of every person,

Agreed.

>	Justice, equity and compassion in personal relations,

Agreed.

>  and
>
>	Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we
>	are a part.

Agreed.

>Is there anyone who doesn't agree with these principles?

I would wager that there are almost certainly some folks who do not.

Regards,

Jeff H...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:43:23 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
Whenever someone tells me that my Paganism isn't a religion ...

you have to question why they would say that. This little trick has been
used to degrade many non-Europeans. Then again it is common to
say that the religions of the East, like Hinduism and Buddhism, are not
religions but philosophies. And do you think they really care what word
you might chose to use? It is not the word, it is the thing. Westerners
love dogma, it's too bad they get so hung up on it. I'll remind you that
it was a Westerner who said, in English, "a rose by any other name ... 
He said rose and not lotus blossom. In the West, the rose is the thing.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rna@crystal.med.umn.edu (Ryan Alexander (BMEC))
Subject: Re: Request for invocation of Diana
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:37:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.033604.10251@techbook.com> nancyp@techbook.com (Nancy Parsons) writes:
>My SO and I are handfasting on 8/13, and we find that the day
>is thought to be the annual celebration of Diana - we thought
>it would be appropriate to invoke her at the ceremony.  
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>
>-- 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Nancy Parsons            | "You can't fire me - slaves must be sold!   |
>|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>| nancyp@techbook.COM  ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!nancyp        |

	In the book ARADIA, the gospel of the witches by Charles Godfried 
Leeland (I think that's the correct spelling) there are a number of interesting
ones to choose from.
	In fact, I have set one of texts for female choir (SSA).



|RNA (DNA's bad-ass sidekick)   / "Decency?!  I am a pirate!
|Internet: rna@ epx.cis.umn.edu/       I don't _do_ 'decency'!"
|			      /           - Don Carnage
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re:  Men are Scum etc.
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:40:22 GMT

In article <15379@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
> ... anger is also a dangerous and basically negative
> emotion. It basically doesn't help anything, *particularly if
> you buy into it*. Then it just feeds on itself and grows and
> takes over.  By "buying into it", I mean that you identify with
> your anger and so develop the "*I* am angry" mindset.  There's a
> very powerful anger meditation in a book which I have at home.
> If there's any interest I'll post it tomorrow.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post it.  Or if you decide not to, then send
me a copy some other way!

Blessings!

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@icsi.berkeley.edu	        |    -- Ruth Graham
					|
------------------------------------------------------------
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