HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu (Aaron Nabil)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:34:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr16.023413.5610
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.213624.12605@iitmax.iit.edu> nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu (Aaron Nabil) writes:
>	
>[stuff deleted]

[even more deleted]

>I think that the basic point of your argument is that a 
>guidebook or roadmap can help.  I agree.

Actually, my point was that sharing experiences with others can be
as important as studying and practice are.  Learning alone can be
very, uh, lonely.  But in re-reading my post I can understand how
the "guidebook" idea might have come across as the central theme
when I had only intended it as a plot device.  Mea culpa.

[skipping ahead...]

>There is a real danger of the I'm better than you syndrome:
>
>I experienced this and this so I must be spiritual and better than you
>who has never experienced this and this.
>
>I think that this attitude isn't that healthy, and those people
>for which it may be a problem, should beware.

When I read your post, it pushed my buttons in a manner obviously
at substantial variance with your intent, if your summary in the
above paragraph is any indication of that original intent.

I agree with you completely, at least when you phrase it that way.

>
>With apologies,
>
>Toshi
>tt@wag.caltech.edu
>
>P.S. maybe it's good that I have a preachy post every once in a while.  At
>     least people respond to it :-)

Aaron
From: adobe!usenet@uunet.UU.NET (USENET NEWS)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: More questions from John Wheeler
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:48:33 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

|4. To what degree has meditation helped you be free of your ego?
|
|   A. Not at all
|   B. Partially
	.
	.
	.
    G. I have completely overcome the ego


There's an excellent Zen story on this subject.

A monk came to his teacher, saying: "Master, I have overcome
every trace of ego. What should I do now?"

"Throw it out," replied the master.

"But I have completely overcome the ego," protested the monk.
"What am I to throw out?"

"Then CARRY it out!" roared the master.


			-Alan
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: plains!sivaram@uunet.UU.NET (Sivaram Hariharan )
Subject: The concept of Jivatma and Paramaatma in Hinduism and its relation
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 22:29:58 GMT

The crux of Hinduism is the liberation of the individual soul,
the Jivaatma, which then merges with the supreme self, the
paramaatma or the Almighty.

There have been different school of thoughts on this. Two principle
schools are Adi-Shankara's MONISM and Madhvaachaarya's DUALISM.

According to Shankara's monistic theory, there is nothing but
the supreme self that pervades this universe. The Jivaatma or
the individual soul is a mere projection or reflection of the
supreme self. Liberation of the Jivaatma is defined as the state
when the individual soul realizes its oneness with the supreme
self and discards everything else as MAYA or mere illusions.

According to Madhva, the Jivaatma and the paramaatma are seperate
entities and liberation is defined as the Jivaatma inhibiting the
abode of the supreme self called Brakma-loka(the world of brahman
or the supreme self).

But with the progress of modern science, especially in the field
of bio-chemistry and genetics, one asks: Has this concept of Jivaatma
and paramaatma has reconciled with modern science.

Latest discovery on the bio-chemistry of the human brain is homing
in the notion that our human bodies are nothing but bio-chemical
entities(See latest papers published in CELL). As a result of this,
the concept of a soul inhibiting the human body is becoming moot.
These discoveries are also shaking the foundations of Western
Phsycology. Assuming that we are mere bio-chemical entities, products
of evolution from lower life forms over the aeons, we
can DISPENSE of with the concept of soul(See ILya Pregogene's ORDER
OUT OF CHAOS). 

But the million dollar question is whether modern science can
ever dispense of with the concept of the Supreme self or the
Paramaatma. 

The answer is NO and maybe never. If the initial nucleus, from
which the universe may have evolved can be designated as the
creator, or as the Hindu scriptures say, the MOOLA-KAARANA KARTA,
which in other words is the ROOT-CAUSE of this material universe,
then things fall into place. One may effectively postulate that
the Supreme self, gave the universe with properties to evolve(the
properties of protons, electrons, elements compounds etc.etc.)
and then left the universe to take its own course and th evolve.
We are the products of this evolution. Thus the concept
of evolution(Darwin's theory) DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE CONCEPT
OF THE PARAMAATMA OR THE SUPREME SELF. 

This also falls in line with Adi-shankara's MONISM where everything
is attributed to the WILL of the creator.

Comments are welcome.

Sivaram
----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is complex, make it simple
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:38:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Jochen writes:

> just sitting in zazen WITHOUT ANY KOAN.


	Great Elephant!
	

> On a scale from 1 to 10, where 10 means total enlightenment, I would
> answer "green".


	And all this time, [I] was sure that the answer was "Yellow."
	

	Clearly, the smell of the rose planted before birth
	         is soooo loudddd, it can be seen from here.
	
		
---raj
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Re: Samadhi, Enlightenment,...
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 06:52:49 GMT

> My personal opinion would lead me to think that THERE IS
> ONLY ONE KIND OF ENLIGHTENMENT, AND MANY WAYS OF REACHING THIS,
> but is this REALLY TRUE ?

	That is the only truth. In fact the truth is only one.
	And that truth is beyond our concepts of truth or untruth;
	         in fact beyond all concepts.
	
	Have no doubts about it.
	In time, if earnest seeking is there, all doubts will vanish.

	But [then] the doubter really vanishes; [and one says that
	             doubts have vanished].
	
---raj
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:29:31 GMT
Organization: ----

In message <1992Apr14.213624.12605@iitmax.iit.edu>, nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu
(Aaron Nabil) writes:

[an excellent parable]

Bravo!  

(from someone who has never seen any of the movies, has read a few
guidebooks, but hasn't stumbled on any of the places they described.)

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 19:46:18 GMT

In <1992Apr14.031722.17965@iitmax.iit.edu>, johnw@farside.eng.ready.com
(John Wheeler) writes:

>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?

Mainly mindfulness of breathing; also various other exercises I've seen
described.

>2. What is your actual experience in meditation?

No different from my usual waking state of consciousness.

>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?

Groping in the dark.

>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this?

Dunno.

>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when?

At this rate, never.

Actually, I'm less interested in "full enlightenment" than in the various
other states that are said to be encountered through meditation: access
concentration, the concentration sign, the absorptions, and so on.  I know
they are said to be of no importance in the long run, but they are also
said to be useful in the short run, as providing some concrete indication
that something is happening.  Without such feedback the practitioner would
(quite rightly, IMHO) give up.  What's the point of sitting in front of a
wall for ten years if all that happens is that you sit in front of a wall
for ten years?  There are better things to do with one's time, though
none that I know of would be relevant to obtaining these or any other
altered states (short of illegal drugs which I wouldn't know how to obtain).

I have not experienced any of these states, nor have I met anyone who
claims to have done.  Nor have I even experienced the more mundane effects
which some people do claim, such as, er, "fuller mental integration" or
something like that (the words don't make much sense to me).

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
From: wolffram@andor2.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de (Jochen WOLFFRAM)
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:56:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.213626.19123@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>I would like to propose the following questions for discussion.
>
>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 
Nothing.
 
>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  
Shikantaza - just sitting in zazen without any koan.
 
>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  
Seems like nothing goes without a ranking. On a scale from
1 to 10, where 10 means total enlightenment, I would
answer "green".


Jochen Wolffram
(wolffram@andor.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de)
From: karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Reincarnation...
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:16:18 GMT
Organization: yenta unix pc, rio rancho, nm

In soc.religion.eastern you write:
>In <1992Mar29.045752.27521@iitmax.iit.edu>
>cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG) writes:
	>>If reincarnation is supposed to be a "punishment" for
	>>past actions, why can no one remember what they
	>>have done in previous lives??
>Response:
>Reincarnation is a very complex thing.  ...
>b) Perhaps reincarnation is a punishment in general and no memory is a 
>byproduct of the process.  Some people say that they CAN remember their past
>lives, so if they are in fact doing so, we might be faced with a process which
>leaves some memories intact, some erased or taped over.  Perhaps the fact that
>I can't remember is part of the PROCESS.

	For instance... several years ago I had a series of past life 
regressions. Within them were several experiences which explained some
of my more dominant attitudes about life. I was not totally convinced at
that time, keeping a somewhat sceptical attitude as I do until I have 
proof for myself (this is not necessarily proof to others). Still, my
attitude was one in which the experiences were valid psychological ones,
in that I had learned more about my inner workings through this series
of regressions.
	Last Spring at this time, I was planning a move for a variety
of reasons to Albuquerque. I saw an article in the Sunday paper from
this area which triggered intense emotion concerning one of those past
life experiences. I cried for days, off and on. When I got here, I went 
immediately to the area which had been photographed in the article. I
know that it the area that I lived in that past life experience, and
so I have proof for myself. Whether I prove it to anyone else does
not matter.

Net-hugs, carnations and roses to all,

:-)  Karen.
-- 
    Love is the answer...
	Communication Facilities Designer
	Freelance in the Land of Enchantment              Albuquerque, NM
	karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us                             (505) 266-8659
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:33:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr16.023327.5742
Organization: Lysator Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden

Some people can ask questions. My ego isn't so small that I don't care
to answer. ;)

John Wheeler writes:
>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?
	Shikan-taza
>2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 
	Soothing, a bit like taking a hot bath mentally.
>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?
	I have no idea how that would be.
>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this? 
>	C. You have the right meditation and you are applying it correctly,
>           but it's just going to take time to reach the goal
	I have done zazen for less than half a year.
>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when? 
	Yes, hopefully in this lifetime. ;)

--Ceci

--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
Vad bryr vi oss om tsaren, se staren, se staren! EA Karlfeldt
(What do we care about the tsar, see the starling, the starling!)
===================================================================
From: jclark@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Out/Look Articles
Date: 9 Apr 92 05:56:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <31163@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> db@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
+From Albert's post, Ara Wilson's seems to make three main points in her
+Out/Look article:
+	1. The bisexual movement doesn't have a clear vision of where it
+	   wants to go and how it wants to get there.
+	2. A lot of bisexuals are basing their ideas of lesbian feminists
+	   on 1970's ideas and on stereotypes, instead of actually talking
+	   to lesbians.
+	3. Supporting the bisexual movements demands for visibility will
+	   reduce the space for lesbians and gay men.

The articles begin by stating that the authors are mainly writing
about women's bi vs lesbian movement. They dismiss male-bi's almost
out of hand. The second article by Carol Queen gives a bi-woman's
perspective(which I haven't read fully, no time since I posting to
the news).
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Iseult White)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Women are BLG, too! (was: Outing at the Oscars?)
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:42:24 GMT

gere@umunhum.stanford.edu (Susan Gere) writes:

>- Do women who are victims of incest/sexual abuse shift nn points 
>  on the Kinsey scale in response?  (my limited knowledge says yes.

My limited knowledge would probably say yes too.  But I have always shied
away from it, because it sounds like too easy a way to 
explain (for those people who have a need to) why women are sometimes attracted
to women instead of men.

Has anyone ever seen studies that suggest that a higher percentage of BL women
have been sexually abused?

Iseult.
From: rhiann@milton.u.washington.edu (Sandra Hereld)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: bisexuality a fad? (was Re: Bisexuality and Furries...)
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:02:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Apr6.180213.17284
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <9313@baird.cs.strath.ac.uk> sean@cs.strath.ac.uk (Sean Ahern) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.215058.15574@cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:

>   Well in my case I reckon that more women have the qualities I like
>in people I get attracted to than men, but I couldnt really categorise
>those qualities without a whole load of generalisations, although long
>hair helps :)



>   I know I'm defintely far more sight-attracted to women in passing,
 
I think that women still in our culture do more to draw the eye.  I think
that like male lions and birds, females in homo sapiens have more
flamboyant secondary sexual characteristics, (as you mentioned, hair)
breasts and hips, and they dress to flaunt them more. 
Or perhaps I should say straight women dress to flaunt more than
straight men.

All of this means that in a true 50-50 bisexual (assuming one 
exists) it would make sense for your eye to be drawn more to women
than to men.  If you were already 40-60 tilted towards women, these
attributes would only add to the likely hood of you noticing women
passing more than men.

>I tend only to be attracted to men I actually know and already like, possibly
>because its 'safer' to be attracted to a motss one is already familiar with
>and one can relax with.

That is exactly how I would have described my sex-attractive life
before I became active in the glbo community.  The only motss I
?allowed myself to become attracted to were friends, many of whom
I slept with while they were deciding whether they were actually
or only 'politically' bisexual.  I don't know if you are actually\
intimate with any of these 'men you actually know and already like'
or not, it doesn't matter.

When I started to see all of these motss that were if not
actually available to me (since I am not gorgeous...#8^))
at least theoritically open to a proposition from me, I
started noticing motss more sexually, and now and frequently
found on street corners, drooling on the most unlikely and
probably totally straight motss suspects.

If you are at all like me (unlikely, few are) your pattern of
attraction may change radically if you get more involved in your
local glbo community.

>  I dunno.  I'm not that bothered about it,

Then don't listen to any of my babbling about it...#8^)

>
>White Rabbit

Sandy                 Bisexual, Queer, Vocal, Proud
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: keb3@po.CWRU.Edu (Keith E. Bitely)
Subject: Re: Laws in the Isle of Man
Reply-To: keb3@po.CWRU.Edu (Keith E. Bitely)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 21:10:02 GMT


In a previous article, emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) says:
>rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>>Legend has
>>it that Victoria deleted all references to homosexual acts
>>between females from the legislation, because the very idea
>>of such things going on was simply too preposterous (:-))

>Well she was right, wasn't she?  I mean *obviously* you can't have sex
>without sticking at least one penis into at least one orifice.

There wasn't a smiley, so I don't know if you're using sarcasm or not.  But,
I definitely do not believe that the above is true.

>Besides, surely both women couldn't lie back and think of England at
>the same time, or nothing would happen.

huh?

>Eamonn

Keithy
-- 
"You have class, Claire!  You have class up the butt!!"--Janitor Joe
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Iseult White)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: bisexuality a fad? (was Re: Bisexuality and Furries...)
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:04:26 GMT
Organization: Rational, Santa Clara, CA

In article <1992Apr9.102741.12808@sci.kun.nl> rhialto@cs.kun.nl (Olaf Seibert) writes:
>In article <f0ghbap6@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>Heck, it's even more complicated with me, and I'm a Kinsey pi... (irrational,
>>transcendental, and memorable to sixteen decimal places).
>
>Ooooo Kay! You must be divine! All humans I know only have 10 digits!
>Being tickled by you must be truly exciting! (Attempt to calculate the
>extra excitement, assuming doubling at each additional digit:) 2^6 = 64
>times as exciting as a plain decadigital! Wow!

Girls ditch the vibrators, quick digits dekker is on the loose.

Iseult.

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Putting on the Forbes
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:18:51 GMT
Organization: Centre Interuniversitaire en Calcul Mathematique Algebrique

In article <1992Apr5.114934.8212@thelema.uucp> STella@thelema.uucp
(STella) writes:

>In years of being something of a Malcom Forbes fan, and reading
>interviews with him, etc., I never saw anything where I felt he'd
>harmed me as a gay person.

Malcom Forbes fans might want to consider reading Joe Keenan's
Woodhousian comedy, "Putting on the Ritz". It features a dual between
two billionaires, one reminiscent of Malcom Forbes, the other of
Donald Trump. The Forbes character is treated more sympathetically,
and is of course gay as mad tea party. The Trump character has some
interesting sexual habits of his own.

Malcom Forbes supposedly had a collection of gay erotic oil paintings
done by artists on special commission. The rumor is that the heirs
destroyed them all. So if I was going to gripe, I guess I would
gripe about his kids.
--
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University 
                  gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair)
Subject: Re: bisexuality a fad?
Reply-To: h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:24:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr09.171647.23055@vpnet.chi.il.us> orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
>
>I noticed I started to notice men a lot more after I'd actually been
>involved with one, and had a chance to notice the interesting bits are
>usually hidden away.

I noticed something like that in myself.  I usually went for dark-haired
(black hair is best), dark-eyed (again, the darker the better), types.  But
then I had a fling with a blond.  Ever since, I've been noticing yellow
hair.
>
>   Long hair is a killer, though, on a good-looking man, when he's
>also wearing jeans and a jacket. It helps if he's a redhead, too (lapse
>into drooling...)
>
Now, wait a minute - didn't I just meet you, and don't you fit that
description?  

>                __
>  david parsons \/ orc@pell.chi.il.us


-- 

- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: bisexuality a fad?
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:36:34 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.192427.15904@midway.uchicago.edu> h431@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
|In article <1992Apr09.171647.23055@vpnet.chi.il.us> orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
|>   Long hair is a killer, though, on a good-looking man, when he's
|>also wearing jeans and a jacket. It helps if he's a redhead, too (lapse
|>into drooling...)
|>
|Now, wait a minute - didn't I just meet you, and don't you fit that
|description?  

    Well, um, er, I guess so; I don't really notice the colour of my
hair anyways, nor the length unless it's all in a large carnivorous
tangle.   And I can't help wear jeans - it's all I own!  Maybe I'm
just overly impressionable ;-)

|- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu
                __
  david parsons \/ orc@pell.chi.il.us