HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct
Subject: What is "anti-PC?"
From: mzener@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 12 Aug 92 09:31:26 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

> This is a problem intrinsic to a discussion about "PC" or "anti-PC."
> No one can agree on definitions.  :)

   telllllllll me about it.......

   Personally, I view people or groups as being anti-PC if they attck the PC
phenomenon because of its shoddy logic, historical fallacies and disposition to
censorship.  Certainly someone may be opposed to the ideals commonly espoused
by people who are PC, but that does not make them (to my mind) "anti-PC,"
especially if they want to put in place programs of similar moral and
intellectual failings.

   In a nutshell -- PC - term for the radical left who want to enforce their
                         view of the world by, among other means, censorship of
			 opposing ideas.

		    anti-PC - Disagrees with the means of the PC movement, but
			      not necessarily the ends.

		    radical right - Disagrees with ends of PC, tends to use
				    the same means, though.  No cute term yet.


Max Zener
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: The "his", "he" Issue
From: mzener@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:18:48 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

hasn@midway.uchicago.edu (Sheheryar Hasnain) writes:

> Sheheryar:  What is actually revealing is that only women need to make that
> "conceptual leap" while the men are already waiting on the other side!!

   No, anyone who understands and accepts that the male form is also the
neutered form has made the leap -- others haven't.  Why do you assume that all
women haven't and all men have?

> Sheheryar:  A language is only worth what purpose it serves.  "Convention"
> and "proper usage" has changed/evolved with social change.  If some people
> of this society feel that the generic masculine or the neutered pronouns are
> exclusionary then the "need" for change exists.  Simple.  If it sounds silly
> change it.  Remember, a system is only so good as what purpose it serves,
> and not vice versa.
 
   Actually, word usage changes when one culture starts to seep into another (I
could use the term "invade," but then you'd have gotten all huffy about
militarism, so I didn't).  
   By the way, your above statement should read "if MOST people of this society
feel . . . then the need for change exists."  I'm sure some people in this
society feel that Pat Buchanan should be made godhead for life;  do you support
that change?
   You don't change things because they sound silly, you change things because
they are incorrect.  The phrase "man nurses his young," is factually and
gramatically correct, even if it would sound better as "mankind nurses its
young."  And no, "personkind" isn't a word.
   As to that "system is only so good as the purpose it serves" comment,
well, that lil' bit of naivity will keep me chuckling all afternoon.

Max Zener
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct
From: bickis@skmath3 (M. Bickis)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: The "his", "he" Issue
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:22:19 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

In article <1992Aug20.212832.8216@midway.uchicago.edu> hasn@midway.uchicago.edu 
(Sheheryar Hasnain) writes in reply to:
>Max Zener:BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate why someone who 
>> uses the neutered forms in English must necessarily be sexist.

>She is as much a neutered form as he.  Think about it.  What, to you,
>is the difference between she and he as neutered forms?  It seems
>that the only difference you can come up with is that one is "correct" and the
>other is not.   

"He" is not really a neutered form.  The neuter pronoun in English is "it".
However, it has been convention in this language, (as in many others) that
in cases of mixed or unknown gender the masculine form is used.  In
English this is only an issue when speaking about people (or at least
higher animals) since inanimate objects do not have gender. It is not so
simple in some other languages.

 Whether this is "correct" is not an absolute question.  That is the way
that educated people (of both sexes) have spoken and written.  Languages
and conventions change.  Today, many educated people (of both sexes)
shun such usage--primarily for political reasons.  I personally do not
like constructions like the singular "they", and I find "he or she" can
get tedious after a while.  Although I am not PC, I do find that I am
saying and writing "he or she" when talking about a generic person, and
I will frequently use "she" when talking about a hypothetical person of
otherwise unspecified gender.  I dub this being PT--"Politically
Tactful".  Given that certain groups in our society have made this
he/she, man/person thing an *Issue*, what is to be gained by provoking
their ire?  After all, the purpose of language is communication, and if
someone is going to *misunderstand* my use of the masculine gender as
*excluding* women (whether deliberately or negligently), then why should
I not avoid the misudnerstanding by adopting another convention?

I think it a great pity that some people have made a big deal about
"inclusive  language", and I am afraid it is getting worse.  However,
given that, it is no big deal for me to change my writing style so that
those who read me get my message and don't get hung up about the gender
of the pronouns I have used.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:5394 rec.scouting:2381
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Levis Drops Boy Scouts..
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:00:06 -0600

Subj: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...      Conf: (35) Alt.Politi
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
SK> Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality

SK> You know darn well what the issue is.  It's Levi, et.al., succumbing
SK> to guerrilla warfare being waged against BSA by trying to dry up
SK> their sources of funding.  All of a sudden, an organization that is

Stan, with all due respect to whatever you believe, I just can't see
Levi's reaction as an _attack_ on BSA.  I don't particularly want to
argue this -- it is just a fact in my mind that withdrawing support
because an organization doesn't fit what you think is correct doesn't
constitute an "attack".

Personally, I think a humanitarian organization that expouses all those
"traditional" values at the expense of a lot of other people who
shouldn't be excluded seems to have its head buried in the sand, and I
wouldn't _support_ them either...   Note:  wouldn't _support_ them.....
...didn't say I would want to destroy them, just that I wouldn't
_support_ them.

Get it?

 * OLX 2.1 TD * FIDO - The world's smartest puppy!

 * Origin: Dark Knight's Table (1:282/31)
From: Alan.Moorman@f31.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Alan Moorman)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Clearing Up a Technical
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:41:08 -0600

Subj: Clearing Up a Technical P      Conf: (35) Alt.Politi
___------------------------------------------------------------------------

WC> Re: MEn are Masculine!

WC> Gads, not all of us...

Yeah!  I like 'em all masculine on the outside, and all feminine on the
inside.

BIG GGRRIIINNN!

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to locate Chocolate -- Operator halted!

 * Origin: Dark Knight's Table (1:282/31)
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:5445 rec.scouting:2435
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Phone Zap - Astra in blinding PWAs with ASTRAnomical Greed
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 14:18:17 GMT


Hi...
 
The woman I spoke with at ASTRA
said that the $24,000 figure was too
high and that average annual cost of
Foscavir treatment was closer to
$10,000.  Can anyone (other than
ASTRA) confirm -either- wholesale
price?
 
She said that she personally was urg-
in the company to place a cap on
Foscavir's pricing shedule but could
not give me a firm time that it might
happen.
 
She said that ASTRA has spent over
$50mil developing Foscavir and with
a five-year patent stands to take
a loss on the drug.  She couldn't
give me any figures for how much of
that R&D cost may have been under-
written by the government.
 
I told her that if a significant
percentage of that R&D cost was
indeed federally funded, then the
company's "loss" may only be on paper.
She could neither confirm or deny
this.  I asked her how many PWAs
were recieving Foscavir billed
through Medicare/Medicaid and she
couldn't give me any hard figures, but
estimated around 75%.  I said that
to turn around and bill the government
an inflated wholesale price for a
drug that it (may) have funded a maj-
ority of the R&D on sounded like
profiteering to me.  She said "it
sounds to me that your anger is with
the health care system."  I said that
while we agreed that there is a lot
that needs to be changed in the
health care system, allowing a com-
pany to essentially defruad that sys-
tem wouldn't promote those changes.
 
I'd like confirmation of ASTRA's
development cost for Foscavir if any-
one has it, and I'd also like to know
how much of that cost is actual and how
much was federally funded.  Was anyone
else in the phone zap informed that
there may be a pricing cap?
 
To it's credit, ASTRA is trying to
make the drug available to PWAs with
limited ability to pay; it just sounds
to me that they want to try to have
their cake and eat it too.  Remember,
AIDS resources are -very- limited and
we can't afford to have this or any
other drug company trying to squeeze
profits out of a barely-working health
care system.
 
One more thing, if anyone else takes
part in the zap, be sure and remind
WHOever answers that our anger is
with the company and not them person-
ally...the woman I spoke with sounded
like she was having a L-O-N-G day,
and sounded basically sympathetic
but had her hands tied by company
policy.
-- 
You know life is an impossible scheme,
And love, an imperceptible dream...
     --- Pet Shop Boys
bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting,alt.athiesm
From: me
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting
Subject: Traditional Value (Was:Re: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...)
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:44:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: none

In article <1992Aug15.145720.28291@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>Please back up this statement-
> 1) Show that irrational bigotry is proper and moral.

We don't have to back it up. Irrational bigotry just IS a traditional
value, both in the United States, and in other countries. It's been 
around for THOUSANDS of years! And now, certain groups are trying
to get rid of this valuable trait! It's criminal, I say!
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting
From: omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu (The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting,alt.athiesm
Subject: Re: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...
Date: 14 Aug 92 03:57:12 GMT
Organization: UB

In <1992Aug9.234825.11097@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>Excuse me, but why is Levi Strauss stopping their contributions to
>BSA?  It's because of pressure put on them by people who are opposed
>to fundamental, decent, moral values.  As I've said before and I'll
>say again, it's totally pathetic for an organization that stands for
>decent standards of morality, as BSA does, to be the group that's
>under sttack.

    No stan, they decided to do it all by themselves...  Is that what
you (the people so feverently supporting this campaign against Levi's
& Co) are afraid of?  That people are finially looking that this whole
issue and dare deciding that you're wrong?

      I renmeber this arguement in our mail messages.. Funny you
stopped writing when you couldn't prove your point..  Well, I'm going
to say something to you stan... Even in being gay was a choice (and
it's not.. (try being gay for a week stan.. Go ahead sleep with a man
et all)  I'll bet you can't.) anywho even if it was a choice.. IT
WOULD BE MY CHOICE!  You still have no more right to discriminate
against me than I have to persecute you because you're christian.  
Oh, BTW Morality (as I said in my letters) aren't for you or anyone
else to judge.. If it doesn't hurt you or anyone else you should just
but out.

Have A Day
-Eftsne (Olu)
*Vox Domini*

******** ___________________________  All expressed opinions are mine unless
 * bi * | omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu |  otherwise noted..  (UB wouldn't have
  ****  | V117MG7B@acsu.buffalo.edu |   any opinions (besides popular ones)
   **    ---------------------------     anyway..)
Smurf these codes:
         *S8/3 b g+(+) l+(-) y/ z(-) n+ o+(+) x(+) a+ u(+) v(+) j+(+)*
                     *B0 f w cd g++! k(+) s- h- r p*
Good quote follows:
   "I believe that homophobia is equivalent to racism.  Prejudicial violence
     towards gays and lesbians is as irrational as hostility towards African
     Americans.  A bigot is a bigot."     		-L.S. Welch 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Astra phone number
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 02:41:32 GMT


Astra: 1-800-225-2787
-- 
You know life is an impossible scheme,
And love, an imperceptible dream...
     --- Pet Shop Boys
bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Phone Zap - Astra in blinding PWAs with ASTRAnomical Greed
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:27:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.132210.17570@spdcc.com> pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.161549.21160@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>
>>>Is Astra F.A.I.R. ?
>>
>>I don't know. I guess that there is not F.A.I.R.ness in bussiness. There is 
>>only profit to meassure. This is a free market economy. Offer and demand.
>
>Sure, Supply and Demand. The problem here is that this is a drug treatment
>for a FATAL condition. With AIDS drugs, if you don't have them you can't
>really fight. 
>
>I seriously wonder how it would be handled if a cancer drug were found and
>the company that made it charged $24000+ a year for it? Would the government
>step in? Would people scream so loudly that the company changes its price?
>I know that it is a hypothetical question, but the population at large and 
>the folks in the White House right now seem to still think that this is a
>condition only in gays and drug users. If it came knocking on THIER door I
>really think they would jump. :/


I am not so sure about that. Look at all that problems that they found now
with silicon implants. On 20/20 or one of those tv-shows, one speaker for
the company that makes the breast implants said that they needed money for
research, and that they started to sell it before they knew what would happen.
Also, look at all the problems with toxic waste, etc, etc.
I agree that the population at large do not care. But, do they care about 
anything?
>

>If I came up to someone and said "Pay me $xxxx or you will die." I would get
>tossed in jail for blackmail. If a company does this you claim it is okay
>simply because it is free market? Funny, but I thought that the government had
>an interest in getting rid of monopolies because they don't provide fair price,
>service and competition. 



Then, the problem is with the government and the way they do bussiness, and 
not with Astra. As I said: The problem here is with the health care system
and not with Astra. Why is it possible for Astra to do this? I guess that
this is the question we need to answer first.

>
>The merchandise here isn't human health. It is human life. BIG difference.
>
I do not see the BIG difference here. For them, everything has a price.
Everything is thought is terms of "value", as a merchandise.
Sometimes, it hits to close to home and it seems terrible. Sometimes it
looks normal. But, in any case, that is the way it works.
Maybe someone should brake the monopoly of Astra on this drug, but in
the meantime, they are doing their bussiness like anybody else.
After all, this is not worse than building weapons.

>Scott
>
>-- 
>Scott Moir / Pentangle / Satyr ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
>pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
>B4 f t+ w g k+(+) s+ m r p+     \/\/  # "What's that?"
>These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs

AAP  
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: gerber@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber)
Subject: This Group
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:19:01 GMT


Every 6 or so months, I re-subscribe to this group and read it for a
few days.  Then I get sick to my stomach, and unsubscribe again.

Kudos for you guys here who stick it out and flame the phobes.  I just
can't find the time or intestinal fortitude to defend my life to these
clueless geeks.

The depressing thing is that these people are the ones who are having
children.  Some of these children will be gay.  Some of these gay
children, will despair over their parent's hate and bigotry and kill
themselves.  And the clueless parents will wonder what they did wrong.

-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------/
/ Andy Gerber		     / gerber@solbourne.com               /
/-----------------------------------------------------------------/

Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:53:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.212653.7417@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> jfh@greenber.austin.ibm.com (John F Haugh II) writes:
>
>That's OK, because my moral values can't abide ...
>disregard for human life and health ..

We're so happy to hear that.  Let us know when you decide to commit
suicide and end your internal conflict.

Ry Schwark
ry@usl.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu (The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,rec.scouting,alt.athiesm
Subject: Re: Levis Drops Boy Scouts...
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:19:21 GMT
Organization: UB

In <1992Aug14.173624.10218@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>First of all, this discussion is NOT appropriate for rec.scouting.
>BSA has it's rules and moral standards; if you CHOOSE not to live by
>them, it's your problem, not BSA's.  

     Hmmm.. well I'm not posting to rec.scouting (I'm replying on
alt.poltics.homosexuality (where this discussion does belong)  I
suggest you check where you are posting dear...   As for your statement
about the BSA well the same thing might be applied to Levi's


Just because you stand on a
>soapbox, it doesn't mean that the societal norm will change to suit
>You claim it's "discrimination"

What would you call it...  Webster defines discrimination as..

1a: the act of discriminating
1b: the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded
     to differently: DIFFERENTIATION
2: the quality or power of finely distinguishing
****3a: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically
     rather than individually*****
****3b: prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment  ****

Seems to me that you fit the bill there,,

>their brains.  Your lifestyle outside the societal norm is your CHOICE,
>and society doesn't have to change for you in the same way that it
>didn't have to change for hippie communes with their promiscuity and
>illegal drug use.

    Societal norm???  This is when you got in trouble last time stan..
Just was is the societal norm??  And who makes it?  (You don't want to
devle into this thread stan.. I'll burn you)

>Also, ust because I gave you the last word in our mail messages doesn't
>mean that I was unable to refute your points; I was just ignoring
>you because there was nothing more to say.

     Funny how you had nothing to say just as I asked you to justify
your beliefs...

Have A Day
-Eftsne (Olu)
*Vox Domini*

******** ___________________________  All expressed opinions are mine unless
 * bi * | omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu |  otherwise noted..  (UB wouldn't have
  ****  | V117MG7B@acsu.buffalo.edu |   any opinions (besides popular ones)
   **    ---------------------------     anyway..)
Smurf these codes:
         *S8/3 b g+(+) l+(-) y/ z(-) n+ o+(+) x(+) a+ u(+) v(+) j+(+)*
                     *B0 f w cd g++! k(+) s- h- r p*
Good quote follows:
   "I believe that homophobia is equivalent to racism.  Prejudicial violence
     towards gays and lesbians is as irrational as hostility towards African
     Americans.  A bigot is a bigot."     		-L.S. Welch 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: madlansacay@mary.fordham.edu (MADLANSACAY, NOEL)
Subject: Re: Phone Zap - Astra in blinding PWAs with ASTRAnomical Greed
Organization: Fordham University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:51:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug13.141817.14583@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley) writes...
> 
>Hi...
> 
>The woman I spoke with at ASTRA
>said that the $24,000 figure was too
>high and that average annual cost of
>Foscavir treatment was closer to
>$10,000.  Can anyone (other than
>ASTRA) confirm -either- wholesale
>price?

They said that Foscavir costs $58.00  and they are calculating
that PWAs with CMV retinitis have only six months to live, hence
the $10,000 price.  %58.00 was when they said that it costs $21500/year.
Astra has conceded that it costs about $24000+ wholesale a year.  Activist are
saying that it can costs closely to $30000+ a year (because of the induction, 
maintenance and reinduction method  (induction+reinduction gets more dosage than
the maintanence dose).


> 
>She said that she personally was urg-
>in the company to place a cap on
>Foscavir's pricing shedule but could
>not give me a firm time that it might
>happen.
>

What's her name?

> 
>She said that ASTRA has spent over
>$50mil developing Foscavir and with
>a five-year patent stands to take
>a loss on the drug.  She couldn't
>give me any figures for how much of
>that R&D cost may have been under-
>written by the government.
> 

They have to open their books for independent audit.
Foscavir was developed almost twenty years ago.

>drug that it (may) have funded a maj-
>ority of the R&D on sounded like
>profiteering to me.  She said "it
>sounds to me that your anger is with
>the health care system." 

We're angry with any AIDS profiteer and those who
take advantage of our poorly management/conceived healthcare
system.

>I'd like confirmation of ASTRA's
>development cost for Foscavir if any-
>one has it, and I'd also like to know
>how much of that cost is actual and how
>much was federally funded. 

The development of Foscavir, Astra says is over $100 million dollars.
There has articles on this on Wall Street Journal, Washington Post.


> Was anyone
>else in the phone zap informed that
>there may be a pricing cap?

This is a right move for ASTRA.  Maybe the boycott and
the bad publicity is getting to them.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality