From: montana@mizar.usc.edu (Robert Montana)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: re: Jesus speaks
Date: 27 Aug 1992 10:05:37 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu



On Mon, 24 Aug 1992 09:17:56 Frank Bechhaus responds
to Elizabeth Stevens:

>Hello Elizabeth,
>
>I would be interested in your basis for discernment. What do you
>think of the following verses in Matt 24 ?
>

I too would like to discern the message given to Cyndi Cain and posted
by Elizabeth and have included comments I believe are relevant to
the discernment process.

>Mt 24:4  And Jesus answered an said unto them, Take heed that no man
>         deceive you.
>Mt 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall
>         deceive many.

I can't find anywhere in the message any person (here on earth) is
claiming to be Christ.

>Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
>

Undoubtedly, but doesn't that mean there will no true prophets?
I believe the scriptures give us guidelines to discern prophesy
and part of that discernment is that we do not have acknowledge the
prophet, but to weigh the text of the prophesy.  There is no need to
'chase' after prophets, only to 'hold to what is true, disgard what
is not'.  I believe this is what makes prophesy 'despicable',
that we hear a person speak prophesy and feel compelled to
reject or accept the message based on the person's sanctity, or that
we accept every word of a particular message, which definitely puts us
an uncomfortable position.

Now it could be that God is consistently working through a particular
person with the prophetic gift, and after much discernment by the
community and leaders, be acknowledged as having a prophetic ministry,
i.e. a prophet.

Frank, I can't tell exactly where you are coming from based on the few
scriptures you quote, but I feel underlying this and other posts
by Elizabeth have the general theme that (1) God *talks* to man, that
(2) there is tremendous intimacy in the Holy Spirit, (3) a communion (and
communication) between heaven and those on earth for those who have ears
to hear, and (4) whatever we do in the name of Jesus is now to be stamped
*urgent*.

Isn't that incredible that our God wishes to talk to us, lowly creatures
that we might be?  You appear to have a great respect of the authority
of the Bible, I too share your respect, however the New Testament (for
which come your quotes) is not an encyclopedia on Christianity, nor
an exhaustive collective work, nor a recipe book.  There was no explicit
mandate by Jesus that Gospels be written, that certain of Paul's letters
be passed on as Sacred Scripture.  The Apostle John even suggests that
the world could not contain everything that Jesus did (Jn 21:25).

It is these scriptures that point out that the authority of the Good News
of Jesus was to be entrusted to faithful *men*.  As weak and as unfaithful
as we can be, this is the plan Jesus instituted.

I don't mean to get epistemological about all this, but please think
about how do we come to know that the Bible is inspired.  The very means
by which each of us accept the Bible as God's inspired word is also
the means we have to discern this prophetic message given to Cyndi Cain.
How did you come to the conclusion that the Bible is inspired, did you
believe because the words jumped off the page after you first surrendered
your life to Jesus?, or because a person of authority, someone you trusted
proclaimed it to be inspired?, did God speak directly to you stating it
is inspired?  It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can come to
accept that the Bible is inspired, not by logic, not by reason, not by
argumentation.  By the same Spirit we are inspired to join in community
with other believers.  Most of the basis of our belief, whether we want
to admit it or not, is based on a person(s) we have allowed to have spiritual
authority over us.  How can that be that we have such an assuredness on the
intrepretation of the Bible, as if we walked and talked with Paul and
Apollos and Timothy?

Does it follow that once we know the inspiredness of the Bible that we
shut down the very discernment processes that got us to that point?
This is exactly what Jesus condemned in the Scribes and Pharisees.
The Scribes and Pharisees were constantly searching the scriptures to
find inconsistancies with Jesus' teaching.

There is always going to be a sense of *unknowing* and a reliance on
person of authority, consequently it is can be a pretty scaring thing
to be one of those persons in authority.

>Although still in the (near ?) future:
>
>Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or
>         there; believe it not.

I don't think there is anything about the message that suggests
that Christ is present at a specific location.

>Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false wonders;
>         insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the
>
>         very elect.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>         ^^^^^^^^^^


>Jesus warns us very clearly that we are in a real danger to be de-
>ceived !  If the deception would be easily noticeable as such, no-
>body would be fooled. I am afraid that those "Jesus apparitions"
>are indeed deceptions and that the people following "it" are being
>led astray. Especially when those "revelations" are contradicting
>scripture.
>

There is also the real danger that, 'Jesus will say to some who cast out
devils in My Name, I never knew you' (Mt 7:21-23), and 'that My sheep
will recognize My voice' (Jn 10:14-16).  Again, God does speak to man,
even in our day, do we hear His voice?

>> You certainly have the privelege of believing this.

>Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the
>         desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers;
>         believe it not.
>
>I believe that this is a false apparition because Jesus himself
>told to do so. Do you think he contradicts himself and appears in
>a way that anybody knowing the verses above is very likely to re-
>ject him ? (I just don't understand why you seemingly choose to
>ignore them !)
>
>When Jesus returns, it will look more like this: :-)
>
>Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
>         unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
>Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun
>         be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
>         stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven
>         shall be shaken:
>Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
>         and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
>         shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven
>         with power and great glory.
>
>Love in Christ,
>Frank

There is nothing incompatible with this message and Mt 24:27-30.  The
message seems to point to these particular events.  As in:

>>  Choose now! The moment of my Mercy cannot be extended much
>>  longer. I am offended and saddened too much by the extraordinary

>>   I am the Savior of the world. I suffered My bitter Passion for
>>  all the world. Not just in the time I walked the earth, but for
>>  all who proceeded me, and for all who would follow until that
>>  final moment when My Father announces the end of time. Therefore


Sincerely in Jesus and Mary,
Bob

email: B.MONTANA@AIS0.USC.EDU


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