From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:41:42 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <56860@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
>Paul Clark asks some posers.  I answer to the best of...
>	
>>It seems to be a tradition that it is taboo to accept monetary
>>gain in return for spiritual or magical gifts. 
>>	
>>Do you agree with this taboo??
>Funny thing about me.  I analyze taboos and then, if not reasonable, I
>tend to challenge them.  This one I haven't thought worth my time or
>effort, but we'll see.
>
>No, I think that all taboos are either swindles meant to disempower, or
>they are psychological or practical boundaries which have important
>psychic or precautionary meaning.  This one is purely puritanical, from
>my view.
>
I think that there is a very complicated set of things involved here.
Let me tell you about being a minister.  Being a minister (my dad was)
is a pain in the butt in a denomination which believes in congregational
polity (read:  congregational market economy).  In a UU church, at the
annual meeting, the congregation can just decide that the minister isn't
worth his/her salt, and vote not to continue his/her salary.

Result?  The minister, if he has a family and financial obligations, can't
really afford to be highly controversial.  Or even medium controversial.
Or else, he gets to move around a lot (we moved around a lot).

If you take money for your Work, and you learn to depend on that money,
and you can't live without the money, then you are restricted in your
execution of your will.  

If you don't care about the money, then why take it?  Why not give what
you have freely?

The only reasons I can think of to take money for your work are to defray
actual expenses of the work, or because you feel somehow that the person
for whom you work will gain greater benefit from your work if they know
they are paying for it.

Of course, you can always do it just for fun too...  Sit down in a corner
at a renfair and start reading cards until the renfair people chase you
off...  Or interview to become a sex surrogate...  Or go get your M.D. and
become a psychiatrist, I suppose.  Or write a book...

>>If it is a bad idea, why? 
>Now I didn't say that it is a bad idea.  Just that I tend to go with it.
>Why it MIGHT be a bad idea?  Well, it might lead to charlatanism and to
>further devolution of magick as a science.  On the other hand, I think
>that it would be GOOD for the schmucks if they lost their shirts on this
>kind of swindle.  What about an old lady who spends her retirement money?
>Well, they don't save them from the Lottery, so...

Now wait!  I thought we were talking about doing 'real magick.'  Are we
talking about doing work in good faith, or telling young men that you see
in your crystal ball the Playmate for February?

Is it a swindle to get honest money for honest work?

A while back I actually looked into one of these phone services with 900
numbers ("Psychic Friends are waiting to hear from you!") to do dream
interpretation.  I actually talked it over with my parents.  To my sur-
prise, my mom thought I shouldn't get involved with people of low character
like that, but my dad (remember -- the retired minister...;-) said that
he thought it was neat, since people would use those sorts of services
anyway, and they might as well get someone competant in the course of their
fleecing.

Then you could say, well, then you're just promoting a sham industry.
Shrug.  People write trashy novels, but that doesn't mean that I would
be discouraged from writing fiction.  On the other hand, it does mean
I'd rather submit a manuscript to Shambhala than Llewellyn, so I guess
the point sticks to some degree...

>>Those who proscribe such seem to think that
>>accepting gain would be a major error in your spiritual progress.
>Is it wrong, then, to do a magical working to bring money to equip
>your temple?
>
No, but it is dangerous.  Money is like drugs.  Good to have and use
but easy to abuse and develop dependencies.  

Isn't a tabu a rule that says:  DON'T!  and if you have little enough
discretion to take it at face value, then it protects you, and if you
have enough sense to understand it veils something sacred, then you
can approach cautiously and slip behind the veil?  Just be real sure
if it's a lady or a tiger...

>>Some orders charge exorbitant fees for initiation, claiming that this 
>>demonstrates the candidate's mastery of that aspect of their life. Others
>>charge nominal amounts which clearly just hope to cover the expenses of 
>>the ceremony. Others charge nothing at all. When is it right or wrong to
>>charge?

Hmmm...  Now if it were me, and I hadn't the money, I would go to the 
masters of the order and say, "I have mastered the material world.  I 
have what I need, and as I see it, so do you.  I seek light, not glitter.
Lemme in."  If they told me, sorry, that that disqualified me for the
order, then I'd happily seek the light elsewhere.  I do not trust the
moneychangers at the door to the temple.  I don't believe in some sort
of idea of the separation of the material and the spiritual that is
absolute and dictates policy about money, but hey, guys...

Nominal amounts to cover the cost of staging are reasonable.  Heck I'm
canvassing for my (UU) church this month and we're asking for 2.5% of
gross income/year.  Is that exorbitant?  It means that everyone is asked
to give 1:40 (vs tithing, or 1:10) for the maintenance of event space,
teachers, materials, events, social services, and various bits of infra
structure.  400 adult members, means that we are on average, theorhet-
ically, contributing 10 FT salaries.  Out of this we support a minister,
a religious education director, a secretary, three buildings, a bunch of
social work and such, and membership in the continental denomination;
also newsletters for a year, Sunday and event printed programs, hearing
assistance equipment and sound system/recording equipment.  Arts supplies
and books for the RE classes.  So when you figure, 3 FT salaries, 3
buildings (probably each taking 50% to 100% of a salary), maybe 3 
salaries worth of paper, printing, food, postage, groundskeeping service,
whathaveyou.  Well, that's most of it.  Got a little left over for 
contributing to Oxfam, Habitat, UUSC, and UUA and such.  *poof*

And it's all run like a non-profit business.

How many of you would be interested in putting 2.5% of your pretax 
earnings into an organization devoted to magickal arts? 

*grin* and the people at the local neopagan ritual group don't understand
why I think it's trivial to drop a couple reasonable sized bills in the
hat to defray expenses every six weeks...

>It is ALWAYS right to charge anything one wants to.  If one gets no takers, one
>has chosen the wrong price!!!
>
or the wrong business...

>>If you, as a magician, are living it full-time (instead of being a
>>hobby magician), what is wrong with supporting yourself with your magical
>>work?

Ye gods!  Where are they hiring?  

Seriously, I think this is a major reason why I am an amateur.  No good
offers.  I hate being a consultant.  You spend half your time doing 
accounting and finding more work, and no one *really* trusts a free-
lance.  They're always looking over your shoulder wondering if you're
cheating them.  If someone offered me a good fellowship at a divinity
school, that would allow me to continue to put some support into my
husband, I'd probably jump for it.  But it would sacrifice some amount
of my time into maintaining my independence in the face of a SPONSOR
who might want to control and restrict my research or writing.  As it
is I can write what I want.  It's free (well, it does cost thousands
of systems all over the world countless thousands of dollars, or whatever
that damn thing says every time I type 'F')...

And I'm just to lazy to get that book finished.  And I'm just paid too
well to do computer stuff...

>>What do you think of professional astrologers/tarot readers who do
>>just this (or try)?
>>
Depends how good they are, now, doesn't it?  Depends on their intent.

>>Is it just hard cash that is taboo, or would it be wrong to accept
>>food, books, ingots of precious metal ( :')  ), or services in exchange?

I've accepted gifts for things I've done, but I've never asked for them.
Many shamanic 'economies' work that way.  You do the work, then afterwards
you find a haunch of venison on your doorstep.  If you don't starve, then
you're doing a good job.  Somehow, I have to believe these people didn't
have the IRS...

Shucks, anybody who's out there who likes my posts, send me a couple bucks.
My address is P O Box 1294, Oxford NC  27565-1294. (does this violate
net policy? ;-)  If I get anything I'll be shocked...  Anybody care
to tithe to support my temple?  (They do say that the body is the 
temple of the soul...)

>>One way of looking at magick is that all willed action is magick;
>>in that case, even your day job is magick- why is that right or wrong?

>Good question!  What IS wrong with every day living?  I suggest that listening
>to what other people say is right and wrong is the very WORST thing for you.

Um... yeah, what tagi said.  I thought we were talking about taboos, not
issues of right or wrong.

>>Suppose you write a book on magick. Is it right or wrong to receive
>>royalties on its sale? (This is a moot point, I realize- I don't know if 
>>anyone ever made money from writing good books on magick)

Not?  Oh, well, I might as well just keep writing for the net and forget
about editing down this huge volume of collected cruft for publication.
Not.  

I don't write for money, I think.  I don't think most of the time it's
an issue of choice.  If I can make money off of this, then that would
be nifty...

Of course, there is a small cabal (consisting of both husbands and one
student) who seem to want to take over marketing me.

Gosh, y'all seemed to forget that whole market...  Is it wrong to charge
for lectures?  Seminars?  Should Esalen and Naropa exist?  What about
t-shirts?  Movie-rights?  Ghost-written autobiographies..?  (shirley
mclain, eat yo' heart out shug!)

April 15th is coming!  Incorporate as a religious institution before it's
too late!