HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
Subject: Re: The days ..
From: nop@theory.Mankato.MSUS.EDU (Jay A. Carlson)
Date: 18 Dec 92 03:42:13
Reply-To: nop@theory.cs.mankato.msus.edu (misinstalled gnus and now has to pay for it)
Organization: Mankato State University
In-reply-to: rwifall@nmsu.edu's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:16:03 GMTLines: 19

In article <RWIFALL.92Dec16131603@dante.nmsu.edu> rwifall@nmsu.edu (Richard J Wifall) writes:
	   Umm.. Yeah, I suppose those of you off in the land of the I*M
   don't realize this, but Mass-produced compact code still exists...
   Ohh.. so do Apple II programmers.. On a side note, compact code would
   be my explaination why all my AppleIIgs programs run as fast (from a
   general users standpoint) as equivalent pc clone programs run on clone
   machines that have a mhz rating 5 times as high as my GS.. Of course
   the pipelining can take some credit.

At least part of the reason is 65816 instructions on average take fewer
cycles than 8086 instructions.  It could be argued that the 65816
instructions get less done, but for tightly coded stuff the
instructions are about equal.  

There's a nice version of this seeming paradox for microcontrollers.
A 2MHz 68HC11 is roughly the same speed as a 16MHz Z8.

Jay Carlson 
nop@theory.cs.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker)
Subject: Re: Slick emulator...but need system disks.
Organization: Me, at The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:25:46 GMT

In article <kenc.724129805@sol> kenc@sol.acs.unt.edu (Ken Corey - Operator) writes:
>apl2em-2 is a great little emulator, and it runs quickly on my 486dx33..., 
>however, the only disk I could find was the inmate disk. 
>
>I understand the moderator's concern about copyrighted software, and I'm not 
>asking anyone to become a pirate.  I'd simply like to get the Operating 
>System Software (I no longer have an Apple II, or it's disks). Would this be 
>a major no-no? 

Y'know, I'm still active in the User Groups, and I've seen the DOS 3.3
Master  blatently listed among the PD disks.  Is that true, anyone?

And would old ProDOS disks similarly be available for this group?

Otherwise, we'll have to make empty .DSKs, and work on making it easy
to fill them.

tombaker
Xref: sparky alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2:72 comp.sys.apple2:25352
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: copying disk images
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:26:14 GMT

jimwong@owlnet.rice.edu (Jim Wong) writes:
>essentially stealing from them.  If your neighbor had piles and piles
>of fifty dollar bills that he wasn't using, and had no plans to spend, would
>you argue that it would be correct from an ethical standpoint to steal
>cash from him?

Careful... most people seem to feel that it's perfectly okay to steal
from their neighbor whether or not he/she has piles of it and whether
or not he/she plans to use it.

The obvious thing to do here is raise awareness of software "fairness"
in the same way.  As in "it's not FAIR that we can't run these
programs."  We can get some tearful poor people (officially oppressed
groups would be best) talking about how they can't afford to hunt down
and buy these old games, and this violates their constitutional
rights.  If we can get enough college professors to write articles
about it, it shouldn't be long before Congress passes a law, and we're
all in fat city.  Someone here must have donated to Clinton, maybe
it's time to call in the favor.
-- 
We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone.
From: ez008579@othello.ucdavis.edu (Dudley McFadden)
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
Subject: Re: Does apple ][ GS software work using the apple ][ emulator
Date: 17 Dec 92 07:56:16 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis

It seems that in all this emulator discussion the point has been lost that,
at least for Randy Spurlock's emulator (the one from ftp.cco.caltech.edu),
the program is 'just for fun' and isn't intended to substitute for the real
thing!  It is rather amusing to see people discussing a BIOS for the Apple II
(ha, ha, the GS has one but the ][,][+, and //e certainly had NO SUCH THING!).
Especially in a world where technology has moved on, and the ][, yes, even the
//GS and Commodore Amiga, are being left behind.  It is easy while reading
his newsgroup to delude oneself into believing that there are actually 
serious users of these systems out there, using them for revenue work.

Friends, the Apple II is dead!  We hobbyists are the only ones who care about
it.  Let us not forget that the Apple II was born in the days when ALL
computer users were hobbyists, when we eagerly hooked up our tape recorder and
color TV to the $1700 "cpu," and wrote 4k Integer Basic low-resolution
graphics programs, and saved and saved so we could purchase a 140k DISK 
DRIVE!  The emulator is loads of fun, and true to Apple ][ form (you can even
type C080 in the monitor and the thing will freeze up if your language card
isn't loaded).  It runs most pre-GS software, for what it's worth.

The Apple Emulator is fun for running our favorite old games and for tinkering
around in the rather simple 6502 machine language, but that is all!  The
world has passed it by, just as the Intel p5 and (in 1994) the p6 will
shortly blow away these measly 486/50 chips we are so proud of.  The Macintosh
has thus far been spared a similar fate due to its wide distribution, but the
fact is that X-windows, Windows NT, and (maybe) OS/2 are where it's happening
now, not the Apple //GS.  Those of us who use computers for more than
tinkering don't want apples, we want nice, standardized, fast, spacious PC's
and Unix workstations.  In the low/mid-range market, PC's are entrenched.
They're more powerful and, hence, in many ways more fun than Amigas, //GS's,
and yes, Macs (but here I digress; see certain other newsgroups for this
discussion).

The point of this lengthy diatribe is that I'd like to see less "my GS sound
blows the simms off of your lousy sound blaster" flame in this newsgroup;
why not discuss some nifty .DSK files?  Does anyone have good mods for the
emulator?  Surely someone is working on a little MS-DOS C program that can
copy dire or ProDOS 8 or Pascal format, etc.

(Now there's an idea, Apple Pascal DID have a nice BIOS...)


-- 
================================================================
Dudley E. McFadden, III       <demcfadden@ucdavis.edu>

"Water, water, all around..."
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: dsdd@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Roy Barrett)
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of...
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:54:35 GMT

Joel Berger (jberger@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: an Apple II emulator that will read real (physical, not image) Apple II
: diskettes, or else something to read an Apple II disk and convert it to
: an apple2em image?  I want to know this because I have a lot of old Apple II
: programs on diskette, and all I have to run them on is a PC with apple2em.
: Post it here, or E-mail me as jberger@nyx.cs.du.edu

Nopers, no luck there, MessyDOS PC's use MFM Format, while on the other hand,
Apple II's read GCR...
: 
: 
: --
: -----
: Joel Berger (jberger@nyx.cs.du.edu)	| "Why is the sky chartreuse?"
: Sophomore, Northglenn High School	| "Do as I do, not as I say."
: Assistant Sysop, The Lost City BBS (303-766-3922)
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Subject: Re: Does apple ][ GS software work using the apple ][ emulator
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:13:11 GMT

jimwong@owlnet.rice.edu (Jim Wong) writes:

>>You don't see a lot of software Mac emulators?  Amiga, Atari ST, and Sparc
>>aren't enough for you?

>You still need the ROMs, at least for the Amiga emulator.

I know it is hard for most of you GS users to understand, but ROMS are
software.  On the Amiga and the Atari ST, the ROMS are read into RAM for use,
just like any software.

>And I don't see any for MS-DOS machines, which are what we're talking
>about here.

The original intent was the idea that it is impossible to emulate the GS due
to the fact that you need special hardware.  Besides the sound chip, I don't
see what special hardware you would need.
-- 
			What's the frequency, Kenneth?

DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer.  Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown    pashdown@slack.sim.es.com    ...uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: evensont@spot.Colorado.EDU (EVENSON THOMAS RANDALL)
Subject: Re: Does apple ][ GS software work using the apple ][ emulator
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:37:21 GMT

In article <Bz1yqr.F3L@news.iastate.edu> irsman@iastate.edu (That Ian Guy) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.061621.11876@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> ramsey@spot.Colorado.EDU (Mad Poo Bandit) writes:
>>In article <rdippold.723930292@qualcom> rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com writes:
>
>>Uhmmm, the Soundblaster can do quite a bit more than just FM stuff.  A SB
>>can easily play 4 channel digitized tracks, ala MOD files, not to mention
>>the other types of 'MOD like' music that is capable of mixing 7 tracks, like
>>.669 files.  As for a GS blowing away the Soundblaster's sound, you must be
>>mistaken.  Listen to both and tell me that again.
>
>Just did.  The SB has all of 1 DAC...MOD players have to do CPU-intensive
>resampling on the fly to compensate.  The GS is the obvious winner.
>

I don't know...on my 486-50, I can play a MOD, download, and format disks
without slowing it down a bit.  I think it might be going a bit far
to have the SB mix 32 channels, but for cripes sake, don't compare
Apples to oranges (pun).  An IBM as far as most other things will exceed
anything the GS can do.  And plop in a Gravis Ultrasound, and you could
do near perfect emulation.  What's the clock speed and what CPU exactly
does a GS use?  I'm not sure...it'd be neet to know.  

A 486-50 gets roughly 40 MIPS..  Find out what a GS gets, estimate the 
efficiency of a good emulator, and see if the ratio of the mips comes
close to the efficiency.  Won't be perfect...but nothing ever is.

>Have you EVER used a IIgs?  Do you have ANY CLUE AT ALL what you're talking
>about?  The IIgs has an Ensoniq 5503 DOC chip which has 32-channel independant
>wavetable synthesis (the same as the GUS).  Do get a clue, its far too easy
>to flame you otherwise...
>

You seem to take awful pride in your GS.  Fascinating.


Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: tee@ecf.toronto.edu (TEE LUNS)
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of...
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:14:08 GMT

In article <vera.724891828@fanaraaken.Stanford.EDU> vera@fanaraaken.Stanford.EDU (James S. Vera) writes:
>drives are variable speed (spinning faster on the inner tracks) while
>the PCs use constant speed drives.  So its not physically possible for
>the PCs to read the Apple diskettes.

      It is possible to read apple diskettes in a PC drive, but not with
a standard controller. There was a card out some years back which boiled
down to being an apple II (e I think) on a card. Installation involved
moving your monitor cable to the card, and putting a loop-back cable
between it and your CGA, and doing the same for the floppy drives. Catch
was that it couldn't handle a lot of copy-protected software which used
double-stepping of later apple drives, which of course wasn't available
on a 40-track low density XT drive.
 
     I believe the card was by Quadram, but I could be mistaken. FWIW, it
was reviewed in Computer Digest when said was still a pull-out section of
Radio-Electronics magazine.


     I wouldn't be at all suprised if the CopyIIPC option board (remember
those?) could be sweet-talked into reading Apple II diskettes.
 
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: millerje@CS.ColoState.EDU (Jeff Miller)
Subject: Re: Does apple ][ GS software work using the apple ][ emulator
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:41:24 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <RWIFALL.92Dec17135235@dante.nmsu.edu> rwifall@nmsu.edu (Richard J Wifall) writes:
>In article <20345@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> ez008579@othello.ucdavis.edu (Dudley McFadden) writes:
>[STUFF CUT]
>revenue)  Well, just to get it straight, myself, and many of my
>friends develop on the GS "for revenue work"   Quit deluding yourself
>into thinking you know something about that which you aren't involved in.

FYI, Apple has announced that they have stopped all production (and I imagine
all support) on the IIgs line.  They still will continue to produce IIe's.
This might be a wise time to look into another platform to develop on.

>>   Friends, the Apple II is dead!  We hobbyists are the only ones who care abo
>	Sorry, the Apple II is not dead..  I guess it's time to pull
[quote deleted]
>		-Tom Weishaar
Tom Weishaar? From Beagle Bros.?  Beagle Bros. is dead.  I find it hard to
believe Tom Weishaar is still coding on a IIe (I don't believe he ever made any
GS progs)

>I'd say 5 or so years now... The rest of the world is finally catching
>up to the AppleIIgs....
Yep, IIgs, the pacesetter.

>	Standardized??????  a PC???   Ok, try this:  Get a bus mouse,
>an IDE/Floppy card, a standard IO card, a highspeed video card, a
>bernoulli box, a soundcard, a CDROM, scanner, all with their various
>interface cards and have fun resolving the IRQ conflicts...
Agreed.  So buy a Macintosh.

>pc clone.  And fun is relative.. I have alot more fun on my //GS then
>I ever did on any I*M clone... That would probably be why I switched
>over from the IBM.
Who's talking about fun?  We're talking productivity here.

>	Oh, I would *LOVE* to see an emultor that could get even
>halfway through booting GS/OS 6.0, or a quarter of the way through a
>FTA boot..  (somehow I'm not expecting to hear from any pc-emul
>developers any time soon)
Who cares?

[before you flame, I'm an ex gs owner]

-- 
 _____________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                             |
| "Nuke the unborn gay whales!" |  millerje@cs.colostate.edu  |  Jeff Miller  |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
From: irsman@iastate.edu (That Ian Guy)
Subject: Emulatin' the GS s'more, mon
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2,alt.sex.motss,alt.flame,comp.sys.amiga.emulators,comp.sys.ibmpc.soundcard,alt.exploding.kibo,alt.sys.ibmpc.lame.lame.lame
Keywords: words which summarize the content
Organization: Two Meg Software World Domination HQ
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:23:35 GMT

In an article, that guy at colorado wrote:
>You seem to take awful pride in your GS.  Fascinating.

I can't take credit for the following reply, its by James Brookes 
(jamesb@cscihp.csuchico.edu, who can't get this group). 

Well, its damn hard to take pride in a nameless clone from Taiwan...



-- 
        Ian Schmidt: irsman@iastate.edu or aol.com, BITNET: twbv4@isuvax       
  "I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose free will." - Neil Peart
"..there is another large cross section of users that think the Apple front
office is infested with morons and dimwits" - Ernie Moore, Project Apple Storm
From: y70q@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (LAM)
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
Subject: Where is cco.caltech.edu's apple emulator?
Keywords: apple emulator
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:14:14 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick

I have been to cco.caltech.edu. After I went to the directory pub/nyet,
there is no apple emulator nor any app2em subdirectory. Where can I
reach any ftp site with apple emulator stuffs?
From: dleslie@koh-sun3.usc.edu (David Leslie)
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
Subject: speed of apple2em
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:13:19 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: koh-sun3.usc.edu


Has anyone run any sort of benhmark on this apple//emulator? I'm
curious how fast a PC you have to have to emulate an apple // at
full speed, and if it will start to run too fast. I ran it on
a 386dx 40, and It seemed about right.

 /  Amiga  ///    |  U.S.C. Trojans  | O Bar  | David Leslie        \
|         ///     |     Fight On!    | E O    |                      |
|     \\\///      |        --        | Meu    | dleslie@usc.edu      |
Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: vera@fanaraaken.Stanford.EDU (James S. Vera)
Subject: Re: How come apple.exe misses the ROM file?
Keywords: ROM apple
Organization: Program Analysis and Verification Group, Stanford University
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:38:06 GMT


y70q@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (LAM) writes:

>How come apple.exe misses the ROM file?

The apple ][ emulator on wilbur.stanford.edu is missing the ROM files
because the ROMs are copyrighted and not freely distributable.

>I have just downloaded apl2em-2.zip. It lacks the ROM file.
>Where can I get the ROM file?

Probably a request to this group or comp.sys.apple2 along the lines of
"I own an Apple ][ but am unable to dump the ROMs; would someone
please send them to me." would get you some hits.

James S. Vera       |         Internet         | Voice: +1.415.723.1089 
Stanford University |  vera@anna.stanford.edu  | FAX:   +1.415.725.7398


Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2
From: gerace@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Mad Poo Bandit)
Subject: Re: Does apple ][ GS software work using the apple ][ emulator
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 09:42:11 GMT

In article <Bz53C6.4tC@andy.bgsu.edu> jnomina@andy.bgsu.edu (A.P.K.) writes:
>evensont@spot.Colorado.EDU (EVENSON THOMAS RANDALL) writes:
>> In article <Bz1yqr.F3L@news.iastate.edu> irsman@iastate.edu (That Ian Guy) writes:
>> A 486-50 gets roughly 40 MIPS..  Find out what a GS gets, estimate the 
>> efficiency of a good emulator, and see if the ratio of the mips comes
>> close to the efficiency.  Won't be perfect...but nothing ever is.
>
>And NOW who's camparing apples to oranges?

I don't think he was comparing them, just trying to figure out how much
faster a PC would have to be to even be feasible.

>I'll set my 'accellerated'
>apple ][gs (8MHz) beside any compatible IBMtm or clone running either
>Windows 3.x or PS2-OS, and we'll see what the real deal is.  I think
>that to make your camparison, you'd first need to be running a
>comparibly priced, 16-bit, up to 20MHz system with a CGA or VGA (which
>ever is closest to 320*200*16).  I've made comparisons with 386sx's
>running at 20 and 25MHz, and they looked like dogs.  I'm not
>

320x200x16 would be EGA (or, snicker, a PCjr).  I dunno.  I used to
have a 386sx-16 which was nice when I first got it, but lately seems to
have gotten just plain slow.  So, I got a 486-50 motherboard for 800 bucks
and dropped it in my case, and voila.  That IS one nice thing about the
clone market.  Easy upgradibility.  I don't think a GS is so flexible
in design (not a dog...just fact).

>Someone made mention of the toolbox in the ][gs...  While it
>wouldn't be impossible to 'emulate' the toolbox, I think you'd
>be seriously stepping on some Apple copyrights, which is why
>no one has emulated a Mac or Apple ][gs.

Mac's have been emulated.  I think to get a copy of the roms, you
have to play around with the legal system.  Buy a motherboard (since
Apple, in a pigheaded IBM type move, won't sell the ROMs individually)
and then take the ROMs and return the rest.  ??? Sound right, or close??

>which is one of the serious reasons that, A) the ][gs runs
>so fast at such a slow speed compared to many machines
>(toolbox being built into the ROM), and B) without the legal
>or illegal use of the toolbox, it would be QUITE impossible
>to ever hope to directly run most of the ][gs software.

Whether the toolbox is built into ROM or not doesn't seem like it'd make
too much difference in speed except for an initial load.  I remember
when the Amiga's thing was NOT in ROM yet, and it just took longer to start
up, but wasn't so noticably slower during normal operation (if you had 
plenty memory or something...this was a long time ago when it first came out)
From: kaminl@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Matt Garretson)
Subject: ONE WAY TO MAKE DISK IMAGE FILES
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:42:47 GMT

I got this from an anonymous ftp site. It came with a C source file, a 
script file for MS-Kermit, and an executable version of the C source. I
think the whole kit-and-kaboodle was called A2PCTRAN.??? so you might
want to check archie or something. Here is the .DOC file that came with it
       (I did not write this, and don't know if it works!):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------- Transferring an apple floppy disk to a PC for apl2em -----------

This file describes a method of transferring an apple floppy disk to your
PC via a serial null modem cable connected to an apple serial card. I'm
not sure of the restrictions, but I don't think floppies with track/sector
magic (copy protection, etc.) will work. However, anything that can be
read with normal dos will work.

The mechanics are something like this; you set up your apple to send
standard out to the serial card (e.g. PR#1) and get stdin from the card
(IN#1). I use a mskermit script that sends a little machine program to
the apple that makes it do a hex dump of drive a: (see readdisk.msk)

Before you do a "take readdisk.msk", make sure there isn't any random
junk on the apple's command line (like ^Q or ^S from kermit) by hitting
return a couple of times.

readdisk will put a hex dump on session.log on your ibm. Note: This is a
HEX dump. This is a HUGE file and will take a while to transfer (even at
19.2k baud). Make sure you have about a half a meg of free space around.

Now you need to strip off the garbage at the beginning of session.log
(The stuff you don't want is pretty obvious) so that the included hex.c
program can be used to translate the hex into binary. Use any large scale
word processor that can handle large text files without corrupting them.

Output goes into disk.bin, which then can be renamed according to the
docs so that apl2em can read/boot off it, i.e. (from apple.doc):

    "Disk Drive   - Only Apple ][ floppy type drives are supported
		    now, I need more information on how a Apple
		    hard disk works. The floppies are emulated by
		    have PC disk files named DISKxy.DSK, where:

		    x - Is the slot number of the disk controller

		    y - Is the drive number, a or b

		    For example, if you had a disk controller in
		    slot 6, the default the file DISK6A.DSK would
		    be the Apple ][ disk image."

A short little batch file is ideal for this.

Image files are available via anonymous ftp at:

ftp.cco.caltech.edu (151.215.139.100)
pub/nyet/apl2em

If you make any good images, drop 'em in incoming!

If you have any problems, write me, and I'll try to help. 
I don't have the apple I was using for the transfers anymore, so
I might not be able to help you if you have particularly annoying
problems..

Good luck (you'll need it :)

Nye Liu
nyet@cco.caltech.edu


Newsgroups: alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2,comp.sys.apple2