HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'Krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:01:28 CST
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <GPRIORES.93Jan5113335@fish.oracle.com>, gpriores@oracle.com (gordon
prioreschi) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.163415.3330@midway.uchicago.edu> tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu
>(leon joel gross) writes:
>> [The word "gay" is] offensive for a variety
>>of reasons for a variety of people. 
>
>Tell that to the organizers of San Francisco's annual "Gay Pride" parade.

If you had left the above comment *IN CONTEXT*, I would do so without
hesitation.  And I have talked with people who help organize Chicago's annual
"Gay Pride" parade, and they agree.

Now let's cover what the origional context was, for there is obviously nothing
wrong with being Gay or Lesbian.  Many people are (rightly) proud of having
that sexual orientation.

The origional comment was "gay rape".  A misnomer at best, deliberately harmful
at worst.  Rape is rape is rape.  It is an act of violence that takes place
between two people, one of which is seeking power over the other.

The sex of the abuser and victim are completely irrevelent to the rape, for a
variety of reasons.  Hence the objection to the term "gay rape".  There are
enough people out there who have been raped by a member of their own sex who
have convinced themselves that because it was a member of their own sex, they
too must be gay, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

And that's one of the more MINOR objections people have to that term!

<><><><>
Krikket (a.k.a. Doug Krick)  ---  krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us
#include<std.disclaimers>    ---  an294@anon.penet.fi
anon-1214@twwells.com        ---  anon.77@pax.tpa.com.au

 "And the Germans killed the Jews.  And the Jews killed the Arabs.
  And the Arabs killed the hostages.  And that is the news."
From: dkt@po.CWRU.Edu (Dale K. Taylor)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: blast from the past, gang-rapes, random musings
Date: 12 Jan 1993 16:20:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Regarding the following paragraph from your post: 
"In this example, rape is part of the informal instruction that men (in
fraternities in college, gangs outside...) receive as they grow into
adulthood.  It is part of their armamentarium in bonding with other
men."

This is certainly NOT part of any instruction, formal or informal,
that I or men of my acquaintance received. There is no acceptable
reason for rape among human beings. 

I can't speak for ducks (see post in question).
-- 
           dkt@cleveland.freenet.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T. McGee)
Subject: Test : But don't ignore
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:33:41 GMT

People have said that my posts were difficult to read
because of lack of carriage returns, etc.

I apologize.

If anyone has a problem reading this post, please let
me know what the problem is so I can fix it.

Thanks,

Gary
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Contracts (was Re: Rape Law Reform)
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:55:20 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1iaa7oINNo9f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> rpetsche@mrg.CWRU.EDU (Rolfe G. Petschek) writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.134611.25765@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> flaps@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) writes:
>>rpetsche@mrg.tmc.edu (Rolfe G. Petschek) writes:
>>>Ok.  A man calls a woman, tells her he is a worker at the hospital at
>>>which she just got some tests.  He also tells her that she is very sick
>>>and will die without treatment and that there are two possible
>>>treatments:  1) a painful operation involving a cost of $20,000 and 2) a
>>>act which will appear to be sexual activity with a man and will only
>>>cost $1,000.  They agree on the latter form of treatment, she shows up...
>>
>>In what sense was her consent "informed consent" to the sexual activity?  She
>>believed that it was medical treatment rather than sexual activity going on.
>>There's no way this is informed consent.  And in what sense is it not coercion
>>if you tell someone they're going to die if they don't participate?  (If
>>necessary, replace "die" with "die or have to spend $20,000".)
>
>I apologize, I have been unable to find this case in the source in which
>I thought I had read it.  

It's a real case.  I've read it.

>I am throughly confident I did not make it
>up.  I am reasonably confident I read it in *some* law text and that it
>was a reversal of a lower court ruling by some level of appeals court,
>hence the possibility of reasonable arguments either way should not be
>surprising.

The court (which was ruling in not a particularly enlightened time -- I
believe it was in Florida in the 70's) ruled that there was consent, and
thus no rape.  The legislature amended the state's rape laws in response
to include consent obtained through fraud.

It's in Schulhofer's Crim Law casebook if someone wants to look it up.
The facts are substantially the same as what Rolfe posted.

>I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.  If you take it as
>such you are a blithering idiot.  Legal advice should be obtained
>directly from a professional.

Ditto, as always.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Re : Protect Yourself!!!
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:02:19 GMT

>Also, in order to use these products effectively,
>the finger needs to be on the button before you
>are attacked. 

Nope, but it does have to be handy.

>*Acquaintance rapists not addressed*

Clue - most people are acquainted with far more people than they let
their guard down around.  Moreover, acquaintance, or rather, knowledge
about an acquaintance often leads to heightened "sensitivity".

-andy
--
From: kristinw@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: SEXUAL HARASSMENT
Date: 6 Jan 93 17:47:59 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1993Jan3.170519.1282@altair.selu.edu>, pcs$1699@altair.selu.edu writes:
> Has anyone out there had to press sexual harassment charges
> against a teacher.  If so, how did the school handle the
> situation, how did you handle the situation, and what 
> happened to the teacher?  
> 

As a matter of fact, my high school music teacher was charged with sexual 
harassment.  The school district and principal basically told him that if he
resigned without a fight, then they would give him a good reccomendation to 
another school.  It's not fair, is it???

K.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: eoliver@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Erik Oliver)
Subject: Re: Rape as a perspective
Organization: Haverford College Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:07:29 GMT

Aside from the fact that we seem to have a difference of opinion about
K. McKinnon, the answer was that I was espousing the views presented in
her original paper.  Which, I don't believe I presented well.

So, when I do get back to school, I will look around for the paper.

-Erik
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Man Rapes Man
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:36:33 GMT
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1993Jan7.222625.9710@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mscarce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael Scarce) writes:
>I'm not sure if my last message made it through or not, so bear with me if this
>is a repeat.
>
>There was a request for information about any male rape cases going to court. I
>responded in mentioning a 'gay male acquaintance rape'.
>
>The alleged rapist is a self-identified GAY man.
>The alleged survivor is a self-identified GAY man.
>The two men met in a GAY bar, went home together, and one allegedly raped the 
>other.

The fact that they are self-identified gay makes a difference.  One 
poster (and many people) would call any rape of a male by a male as
homosexual or gay.  This is what I and others object to.

>I was merely attempting to be specific about this case. It IS important to 
>distinguish what kind of rape we are talking about. Rape within the gay 
>community can be very different than heterosexual rape or lesbian rape, just as
>there are differences between stranger and acquaintance rapes, individual or 
>gang rape, adult rape or incest/molestation, etc, etc......

Yes, and rape of a man by a man within the gay community is different
that one outside of it.  It's incorrect to call them both 'gay'

>There has been a lot of misinformation on this newsgroup about the rape of men 
>over the last few days, let's begin to get our facts right.

>Statements like "The sex of the abuser and victim are completely irrelevant to 
>the rape" does incredible damage to rape survivors. 

Yes and no.  It depends how it's understood.
From a legal point of view,  under most laws the gender does not matter.

>Many people still believe 
>that it is impossible for men to be raped at all, and many female-specific rape
>laws make the rape of men perfectly legal by definition.
So it's true to say that "The sex of the abuser and victim [should be]
completely irrelvent to the rape" from a legal point of view.

>There are differences between male and female survivors' rape experiences and 
>the issues which affect their recovery, just as cultural-specific rape 
>education and prevention in our communities is needed to address the demands of
>our diverse populations.

Yes, and one difference is that straight male survivors object to referring
to anything they have experienced as 'gay'.

And gay male survivors are blamed for their victimization, because people
mistakenly assume that gay men want this kind of treatment. 

>Sorry for any misunderstanding, let's continue to explore this issue together.
>
>Michael Scarce

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Xref: sparky talk.rape:3012 alt.politics.correct:6104
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:11:06 GMT

In article <GPRIORES.93Jan5113335@fish.oracle.com> gpriores@oracle.com (gordon prioreschi) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.163415.3330@midway.uchicago.edu> tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
>> [The word "gay" is] offensive for a variety
>>of reasons for a variety of people. 
>
>Tell that to the organizers of San Francisco's annual "Gay Pride" parade.
>
>                                Cordially,
>
>                                     -g

Go back and read the context.

It's offensive in this context; the context was one of calling a
rape of a man by a man 'gay'. 

Is the rapist gay?  Probably not.

Is the victim gay?  Probably not.

Is the act gay?  Probably not.

Is this something gay pride is about?  Probably not.

I assume that gay people would be offended by calling a rape 'gay'.

And I assume that male survivors who are straight do not want to
think of themselves as 'gay' or having participated in a 'gay' action.

I never said the word 'gay' was offensive. The word 'Jew' is not
offensive, but the description of banking fraud as 'jewish' is.

Too bad there is nothing in news.announce about teaching people
to read and quote in context.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.  
 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T. McGee)
Subject: Re : Protect Yourself!!!
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:21:38 GMT

The sale and use of products like Mace and Tear Gas
has become common. Unfortunately, some of these
products are not as effective as the manufacturer
would have you believe.

Check for effectiveness against attackers who are
intoxicated. Many would be assailants are often high
on something.

Also, in order to use these products effectively,
the finger needs to be on the button before you
are attacked. 

These products usually come in a snap-close carrying
case. Keeping the case open and in hand while you
are walking where you feel threatened will help 
ensure effectiveness.

Point of information : Many people are targetted 
because they look weak or vulnerable. Therefore a
feeling of security is good.

*Acquaintance rapists not addressed*
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: grey@bnr.ca (Grey)
Subject: Re: Rape as a perspective
Reply-To: grey@bnr.ca (Grey)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:57:12 GMT

Erik Oliver writes:
> Ok, clearly I haven't explained the concept clearly enough or there
> wouldn't be some many stupid examples flying around.
> 
> I will try to relocate the paper and present it in full.  It was written
> by Katherine McKinnon (sp) one of the foremost feminist legal theorists,
> if I recall correctly.

Actually, you've explained her position on this adequately, it's simply that
McKinnon is not a particulary moderate 'feminist' (she uses the term herself
so we can avoid arguments of semantics). In fact it is because her attitudes
are so extreme that they generate controversy, and also get the publicity
they (imo) don't deserve on the merit of the views themselves.

I'm not sure, were you just repeating that point of view, or espousing it?

grey

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
grey@bnr.ca			              I think I know enough of hate
greymouser			     	      To say that for destruction ice
my own opinions, not those of my employer     Is also great, and would suffice
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: warn@newton.uvm.edu (Patrick D Warn)
Subject: What is Justice?
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Distribution: default
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:47:56 GMT

Can someone please give me a good definiton (or at least your definition) of
what Justice is? 
--
                     Wondering what it all means,
                                 Pat
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: an3191@anon.penet.fi
Subject: part 002 of evasion (/zines/WeirdnePart II of THE HUMAN EVASION by Celia Green - LONG
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: talk.philosophy.misc
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:34:04 GMT

This is Part II of "The Human Evasion". -Mitch
(mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc,gnu.misc.discuss,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
From: galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: 4 Jan 93 20:56:49 MST
Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: world 

In article <1993Jan3.170815.18962@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>BJ:
>>It has been repeatedly pointed out that GNU software is available free
>>of charge to anyone with enough ability and time to learn how to use
>>the various ftp-by-email services.  This surely includes Mikhail Zeleny.
>
>Can you imagine a student account without ready access to a non-glass
>output device, and a one meg disk quota?  Good boy!

Ok, so the student could get his software 1 meg at a time.  He could 
probably even ftp it into a scratch directory and copy it off to floppies
before the the nightly/weekly purging. 

>BJ:
>>Is the software not free enough because you personally have not
>>taken the time to find out how to get it for free, or because
>>FSF does not include a list of all possible "free" ways to get
>>the software at the beginning of each price of its price lists? 
>>
>>Or is ftp-by-email not free enough because you have to pay a
>>phone bill or own a not-free computer and modem to use it?
>>
>>Is it not "free" because my grandmother has never heard of it?
>
>This is getting tedious.  I shall proceed to ignore you fothwith,
>until and unless your grandmother teaches you some manners and
>intelligence.

good idea...

cat >> KILL
/Michael Zeleny/h :j
----
Join the Greg Alt boycott! Put /galt/h :j in your killfile today!
----
From: schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
Subject: Hello did anyone out there attend Stanford btw 86-91
Date: 9 Jan 93 16:10:35 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: schin@acs.bu.edu

Hello

I am trying to get a hold of a friend of mine who was a Philosophy and
Religious Studies major at Stanford. She attended between 86-90 and
also spent a semester at Oxford studying philosophy in 88 or 89 I
am unsure as to the name. If you attended Stanford during that time
would you please contact me.

Regarsd
Neil Schier


Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc,gnu.misc.discuss,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
From: baford%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (bryan ford)
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:04:38 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1993Jan2.122330.18937@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>[...] There exists a clear meaning
>conventionally associated with the term "free software", as distinct
>from public domain software.  In order to appreciate the difference,
>you may refer to TeX, which is made available gratis, and without a
>reciprocal obligation.  When I want a new release of TeX, I have the
>option of ftp'ing it from an Internet node, paying the AMS or somebody
>else for the distribution medium, or asking someone to make me a copy.
>If I were to hatch a scheme to port TeX to Sinclair Z80, and copyright
>the result, the only force capable of stopping me from doing so, would
>be my conscience.  By contrast, the products of the Free Software
>Foundation place their users under a reciprocal obligation to their
>maker.  If the company's name were "Free to Redistribute or Change, As
>Long As the Changes Are Shared With Us Software Foundation", there
>would be nothing for me or anyone else to complain about.  But in the
>present situation, the only way to justify the current short name, is
>to resort to a linguistic trick.

Hmmm...  You seem to be quite hung up about short "misunderstandable" names.

Does it bother you that a company named "Microsoft" sells hardware and
books as well as software?  Does it bother you that IBM sells things
besides "Business Machines"?  Or that the Open Software Foundation
sells software that's anything but "open" in most respects?  While
you're bantering about short names, maybe you should be attacking
"TeX", whose title not only has one of the most non-obvious meanings
around, but also has a very non-obvious pronunciation.

I suppose, also, that you don't call the US a "free" country.
Probably something more like a "Free As Long As You Don't Steal From
Or Harm Anyone Else Without The Government's Permission" country?  Or
maybe a "Free As Long As You <insert millions of pages worth of
obscure laws>" country?

Sure, maybe the title "Free Software Foundation" is somewhat of a
"linguistic trick" that can cause confusion for people that like to
judge an organization by its cover, so to speak.  However, I don't
think you have any justification in presenting it as some kind of evil
Orwellian plot designed to incite confusion and conflict in the
software industry.

				Bryan
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman)
Subject: Re: The Natural State
Reply-To: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:08:22 GMT

In article <roh.5@stud.hsn.no>, roh@stud.hsn.no (ROBERT HAUG) writes:

>I am a student of economics from Norway. One of my optional subjects is 
>philosophy. I've recently got a problem where I'm supposed to discuss any 
>possible similarities between the 'natural state', as several 
>philosophers  (e.g. Machiavelli, Locke, Rousseau) describes it, and a 'pure 
>market economy'.

>Could you help me and bring up your points of view. 

	Try _For the New Intellectual_ and _Capitalism_ by Ayn Rand. You should 
ask your question in alt.philosophy.objectivism. Try _John Locke's Political 
Philosophy_ by Harry Binswanger (Second Renaissance Books, 110 Copperwood Way, 
Oceanside, CA 92052, USA, audio; the Ayn Rand Institute 
[0005125034@mcimail.com] might help you get a 2nd Ren. catalog).
________________________________________________________________________________
	"In that world, you'll be able to rise in the morning with the spirit
you had known in your childhood: that spirit of eagerness, adventure and cer-
tainty which comes from dealing with a rational universe."
                                                              AYN RAND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Grossman <PMSC13SG@UMASSD.EDU>
================================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: an3191@anon.penet.fi
Subject: part 003 of evasion (/zines/WeirdPart III of THE HUMAN EVASION - LONG
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: talk.philosophy.misc
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:37:15 GMT

This is the third and final part of "The Human Evasion". There should be a
contact address at the end, but as before, don't bother writing unless you
have a very specific message, as it probably won't be answered. (For a
brief description of a meeting with Celia Green, have a look at the essay
at anon ftp site quartz.rutgers.edu, /pub/subgenius/semper-floreat.)
-Mitch (mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu)

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Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Intellectual Property Rights
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:56:46 GMT

Whatever the specific virtues of liberating software, and given the
reality of a society that awards real-property rights, just a word
about the justification of legal protection for intellectual property:

There are two basic lines of defence:
	1) fairness (inherent property rights) -- wasn't it a shame
that Shakespeare could not copyright/patent his work, and that others
reaped the benefit of printing ...
	2) utility -- research won't take place, or, worse, its fruits
won't be shared, unless the state recognize property rights in ideas.

The first argument would grab me in a more ideal world, I suppose, but
in a world which sees most patent rights (and many software
copyrights) assigned to corporations, soul-less beasts, "merit" seems
a remote foundation.

The second argument is sound, or not, depending on circumstances.
Canada is currently in the process of caving in to US pharmaceutical
firms which want us to roll back our modest relaxation of patent
rights for older medicines (i.e., our "lax" patents for patent
medicines); most of the evidence suggests we'd benefit from being free
riders.

So, here is the real moral question: will software disappear, or be
kept secret (as so many unprotectable industrial processes are) if
programs are property?  If not, if programmers are modest hobbyists or
U profs seeking glory or tenure, then why the fuss?
-- 
Michael Feld                  | E-mail: <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy           | FAX: (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba        | Voice: (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc