HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: NATO on occupation of ESTONIA
Date: 13 Oct 92 12:52:56 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

I found this in my email and post it forward:
(a quotation follows:)

NATO READY TO SUPPLY BALTICS WITH EQUIPMENT

    MOSCOW, Oct 12, Reuter - NATO is ready to provide military
equipment to the three Baltic states but their membership of the
alliance is not possible for now, a senior NATO official said on
Monday.

    "Extending NATO membership (to the Baltic states) is not an issue
for the time being," local journalists quoted General Vigleik Eide,
chairman of the NATO military committee, as telling a news conference
in the Estonian capital Tallinn.

    Eide, on a visit to Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, said the North
Atlantic Treaty Organisation could not offer direct assistance to
the three countries, which became independent last year and now 
are looking for stronger ties with the West.

    But he said some surplus NATO equipment could be sent to the three
states "at not too high a cost" since standing forces in Western
Europe were being cut. He did not specify the equipment.

    Eide urged an early withdrawal from the Baltic states of some
130,000 former Soviet troops which were taken over by Russia after
the communist superpower collapsed late last year but are still 
stationed in the region.

    Russia and Lithuania last month agreed troops would be pulled
out from the country by the end of 1994. No similar deal has 
yet been reached with Latvia and Estonia.

    Last week Russian President Boris Yeltsin accused the latter two
of violating the rights of ethnic Russians and said the troops would
not be withdrawn until the violations were stopped.

    "In my view, this is not a positive linkage," Eide said. "NATO
stated these issues should not be linked."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Kuwaiti Estonia ?
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:44:00 GMT

wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
: 
: Jarmo writes:
: 
: >Serega is againg making his propaganda. This "40 %" consists
: >for instance all the children under 18 years of age and they can
: >not vote anywhere. I do not beleieve that even in Russian the
: >children cannot vote. To compare Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia with
: >Estonia is more joking I would like to add.
: >jarmo
: 
: 
:       You're in over your head, esteemed Jarmo.  Since ethnic
:       Estonian children also are not allowed to vote and unless
:       the Estonian birth rate is much, much lower than that
:       of Russian-speakers (which is not the case), then this
:       figure of 40% not having been allowed to vote is fairly
:       accurate.

Hmm...There were exactly 151 000 persons in Estonia who were
not allowed to cast a vote. When there were over 600 000 persons
who were allowed to vote (who can give an exact figure)
we can estimate that approximately 25 % of the adluts had not
a right to vote in Estonia. It is something else than this
40 %. May be Yeltsin believes in 40 % or some other moscowites, 
which I would not wonder.This 40 % is used in propaganda
because it sounds more dramatical. Very few people happen to
ask if it is true.

Why these 151 000 persons were not allowed to vote. They are not
citizens of Estonia. They HAVE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY APPLY
For THE CITIZENSHIP OF ESTONIA, RUSSIA,UKRAINE,BELARUS,LITHUANIA,
KIRGISISTAN,TADZIKISTAN,GERGIA,ARMENIA ETC.  Until now only
c. 13 000 of them have applied for the citizenship of Estonia.
I cannot see such a situation possible that they could hold
for instance a citizenship of Russia at the same time as the
citizenship of Estonia. Very strage would it be.
Jarmo
Long Live Estonia!
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA Against Jews
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:57:14 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Oct11.012931.9174@morrow.stanford.edu> sandor@sep.Stanford.EDU (Sandor Talas) writes:
>In article <Bvt9yr.2IC@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>
>
>|> In the past few weeks, Estonian nationalists has desecrated more than
>|> 80 Jewish graves in the central city of Tartu where assailants also
>|> firebombed a Jewish cultural center.  The desecrations were the fourth
>|> such incident since last November.
>|> 
>
>Well... 
>
>I just talked to friend of mine who is from Tartu. She said that 
>unfortunately some Jewish graves were destroyed in Tartu, but the police
>could no find the perpetrators. The suspect of a former case was a Russian
>man from St. Petresburg.

    Must be an industrious man, as he managed to desecrate 80 graves.
    Is this the same guy who kept publishing anti-Semitic articles
    in the mainstream Estonian press and came up with the idea of
    celebrating the 50th anniversary of the 20th division of the SS?

>
>The leaders of the local Jewish community suspect a Russian provocation,
>or as they stated in their communique: they did not think that it was done
>by Estonians.

    Are the Estonian Jews making a run for the border plain stupid, or
    are the remaining ones too scared to speak up?
>
>|> Contrary to what Tapani Hietaniemi claims, there is a "jewish problem" 
>|> in Estonia, but thanks to Estonian nationalists at home and abroad,
>|> a final "solution" seems to be within the reach.
>
>I am afraid Alex that several different things got mixed up in your sentence
>above. 
>
>As far as I know, in the independent Estonia there were no "Jewish 
>problems". All the conflicts (including this one) had happened under
>either Soviet or German occupation.
...

    In case you haven't noticed, Estonia is no longer under German,
    nor Soviet, occupation.  The country is being run by the "true" 
    Estonians, and the Estonia's Jews are running scared.












-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: First snow around the gulf of Finland!
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:44:41 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki


FIRST SNOW AROUND THE GULF OF FINLAND TODAY

The first snow landed on Helsinki city today. On the opposite side of the gulf
it signifies that a hard winter has begun. The Estonians have enough energy
reservoires at their disposal but they have to pay the world market price for
their energy which they can't always afford.

During this winter many Estonian and Russian homes will not be warm enough to
lead a decent life in them.

the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: "robert winkler" <robert.winkler@canrem.com>
Subject: research
Reply-To: "robert winkler" <robert.winkler@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: talk
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:19:37 EST

     I'm writing a political thriller set in Eastern Europe. I've
done quite a lot of research on the subject, especially concerning the
various intelligence agencies of the area. Now everything's changed, &
I don't seem to be able to get the necessary information.

     Please, if you have any information about the NEW, FULL name (in
the native language of the country) & abbreviation of the intelligence
agencies of Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, the Czech & Slovak Republics &
Rumania, leave me a message. Any additional information is highly
appreciated. I know these names have been published in the various
newspapers of the countries mentioned above, but I don't speak any E-
European language, so...

Also, if you know something about the KGB's former Alpha Group, or
(please DON'T laugh) any cigarette brand ANYWHERE in the world, please
reply.

Again, I'd truly appreciate your help. In return, I'll be more than
happy to provide any information I have about the subject (i.e. the
cloak
& dagger world).
     I'm sorry for intruding in this conference with such an
inappropriate request, but I'm desperate, & can't figure out where is
the
right place to post my message. Thanks for your patience.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: tiv@gov.chel.su (Tambovtsev Ilya)
Subject: Welcom into the Chelyainsk / Ural / Russia
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 04:19:58 GMT
Reply-To: tiv@gov.chel.su
Organization: Region Government


   Among East and West, on limit of Europe and Asia you'll see a beautiful
        world, the world of wonder things, people and nature.

                      WELCOM into the Russia !!!
                   WELCOM into the Ural !!!
              WELCOM into the Chelyabinsk!!!

 The Ural is most extensive and industrial part of exSovietUnion.
 Now it is most mobile part of growing Russian economics.

  Here is two offers from touring and hunting firm.
-----------------
 The "Diana - Tour" is a special firm in area of international hunting and
 fishing touring in Chelyabinsk region. We do hunting and fishin tours in
 traditional Russian style and especially for foreign tourist, hunters and
 fishers. The hunting tours are allowed and provided by Department of
 Hunting Industry with quality staff.
-----------------
 The "Victoriya" is a touring agancy  which realize a visits of foreign
 groups of tourists or businessmans to rest and to set a business meeting,
 conference, here in Chelyabinsk and Ural region. You can discover not only
 new people , you can build a areas of new market youself!
-----------------

  *** For more informations about service, transportation, prices
 for an individual tours or a groups of tours ,please call to E-mail address:

              tiv@gov.chel.su    OR   ilya@chel.su

   We also have an interest for business contact with Tour companies!

  If you have another interest in our region, please write to me, you message
  will be saved in Base of offers, and we try to find you want.
  In any case we inform you about it.

  Happy for you!

   Ilya Tambovtsev. ( Information Service)
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM ("", Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Kuwaiti Estonia ?
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:25:13 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> From: "(Jarmo Ryyti)" <ryyti@JYU.FI>
>
> Some basics:
>
>
> The fifth lesson: There were c. 151 000 adults of non-estonian orgin
> who were not allowed to vote in Estonia.
>
> The sixth lesson: There were over 600 000 persons who had a right to vote.
>
> The seventh lesson: There are c. 1 600 000 persons living in Estonia.
> Of this 1,6 mill. approximately 1,1 mill have got the citizenship.
> Jarmo
> :
>

C   = total number of Estonian citizens in Estonia
AC  = number of adult Estonian citizens in Estonia
NC  = total number of non-citizens in Estonia
ANC = number of adult non-citizens in Estonia

Jarmo claims:

C   = 1,100,000
AC  > 600,000
NC  = 1,600,000 - 1,100,000 = 500,000
ANC = 151,000

Question: how many children we have per one adult
          within citizen/non-citizen populations?

Solution:

C ch per ad  = (C-AC)/AC < 500,000/600,000 < 0.84
NC ch per ad = (NC-ANC)/ANC = 349,000/151,000 > 2.31

Is such a big difference true? Seems preeeetty strange.

Where did you get this math, Jarmo?

Dmitry
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:8483 soc.culture.soviet:8793
From: vadim@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Military coup in Russia ?
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:04:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.132642.17210@watson.ibm.com>, oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
> Yesterday I listened to Prof. Sachs on CNN who is an American that
> helped Mr. Gaidar to devise the economic reforms in Russia.
> Dr. Sachs stated that economic situation in Russia has been going
> downhill very steeply for the last 3 months mainly because the
> reform plan was abandoned in favor of financing military-industrial
> complex by sharply increasing money supply (printing more money
> to pay for its production). The inflation is about 30% a MONTH,
> and should increase even higher. Dr. Sachs described current
> political situation as highly unstable because of economic one
> and said that a putsch is possible within a few weeks to a few months.
> Even if putsch does not happen, in December the newly reconvened parliament
> will probably give reformists and democrats an ax. In April
> when they met last, they gave a green light to reformers on the
> premise of huge foreign aid. There have been no aid at all - mostly
> due to economic turmoil in G7 countries.
> 
> Oleg V
  
   I guess that the steep turn in the internal politics of Russia is
going to happen in the beginning of December because I connect it
with the next congress of the people deputies scheduled on December 1st.
But it's difficult to say whether it's going to be turn from good
to bad or vice versa as Mr.Gaidar's reforms simply did not work.
Sorry, there was one credit to Mr.Gaidar (the ruble became temporary
stable) but the rest ...  
   The is no such a foreign aid which could be able to really help
Russia. 24 billion dollars is almost nothing for Russia. Therefore
not G7 are guilty but the current government is totally responsible
for that. And they are guilty even more if they hoped that $24 b.
"smogut spasti otsa russkoy demokratii"
   Lets see what happens.
Vadim.
From: nrd@REDWOOD.CRAY.COM ("", Neal Dalton)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Money tranfer and traavel amounts for Russia.
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:22:32 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

@pucc.Princeton.EDU:TPS-L@INDYCMS.BITNET writes:
>
> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
>
> >In article <Sep.25.14.13.58.1992.28648@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net
>  (Hubey) writes:
> >>
> >>I'm still not clear. Can an ordinary Russian citizen go to any bank
> >>and exchange whatever rubles he has at his disposal for dollars ?
>
> >No. rubles -> dollars means very long queue - don't know what else.
>
> >>Will he be asked questions regarding how he came upon this money ?
> >>
> >>One final question; is there a restriction on the amount of money
> >>(dollars) that a Russian citizen traveling abroad can take with him ?
>
> >$500 - in both directions - 2 weeks ago

Isn't that the old amount that they could exchange at a specail
exchange rate when leaving the country.  Everyone I know returned with
much more than that.

In the US the maximum your can enter the country with and not declare
it is $10000.  Howevery, you can bring more.

> Is there anyway to wire money to Russia?

Yes, Western Union.  I also have excess Rubles in Russia on occations.

--
Neal  /\    /   _     /   \|||/                   Neal Dalton
     /  \  / _  _\   /   /     \                  Cray Research, inc
    /    \/_</_(_/\_/   (  o o  )                 655-F Lone Oak Dr.
                         \  ^  /                  Eagan, MN 55121
                          \ 0 /
Internet: nrd@cray.com     \_/                    Phone: (612) 683-5607
    uucp: uunet!cray!nrd                          Fax:   (612) 683-5599
From: covdy@cronos.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Yeltsin: sorry that I might saved him.
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:34:21 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA  USA

5 years ago, when Gorbacheve was up and Yeltsin was down, Gorby had a good
chance to kill him politically, but, instead, he gave him a chance and
made him a Minister of Constructions (or whatever, don't remember).
It was that easy then to calm down those blood-thirsty ligachevs & Co,
but Gorby did it.

Now, when Gorby is down, Yeltsin is enjoying the revenge and taking away
from Gorby his limousin and dacha.

So, how do you like?

As for me, I thought Yeltsin wasn't such a plebian.

Back in 1988, when Ligachev was if not the most powerful then, definetely,
second after Gorby, and when Yeltsin was deprived of all his duties
and attempted to commit a suicide, I decided to cheer up the guy.

I made a T-shirt with huge "LIGACHEV?" on the back and
"YELTSIN - YES!" on the chest. I put the T-shirt on, and walked
down the cetral streets and places in Moscow, including the Arbat,
Gorky Stree, the Red Square and GUM. Probably, it was the very first
open "public" support of Yeltsin. I don't think that it became known
to Yeltsin, but who knows? Probably, it's just a coincidence that soon
after that, Yeltsin got on track of recovering and returning to life,
including his political re-incarnation...

Sorry, Russian foks! Sorry, that I did it!


-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: wild@access.digex.com (wildstrom)
Subject: Computers & international affairs
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 01:00:21 GMT


I have no idea whether this is a reasonable forum in which to be asking this
but....

I'm looking for some help for a visiting Russian friend who is seeking articles
books, etc., on the use of computers in the conduct of international affairs.
Anyone have any ideas about where to begin.

Please reply here or by mail to wild@access.digecom
From: sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Buharin's letter.
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:36:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania



  I just got a magazine which published a letter from, 
 as the inroductory article says supposedely, Bukharin.
 The letter was typed on a typewriter and doesn't
 contain the signature. The letter is quite intersting,
 but the author is an educated bastard. 

  For those who are interested, I could fax the  letter.
 Obviously, I'm to lazy to type it (it's about 4 pages)
 to put in the Net. 

  Warning: the letter was published by "black-hundred's"
 magazine "Nash Sovremennik", (he-he) but doesn't contain
 any antisemitic propaganda (what a wonder!!).

 S.B.
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Kuwaity Estonia ?
Date: 7 Oct 1992 19:32:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct7.123405.8180@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>: of barring 40% of their population from elections - they

>Serega is againg making his propaganda. This "40 %" consists

Jarmushka, he said population, not constituency.

Yury
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Kuwaiti Estonia ?
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:42:42 GMT

Jarmo Ryyti (ryyti@jyu.fi) writes:
>Hmm...There were exactly 151 000 persons in Estonia who were
>not allowed to cast a vote. When there were over 600 000 persons
>who were allowed to vote (who can give an exact figure)
>we can estimate that approximately 25 % of the adluts had not
>a right to vote in Estonia. It is something else than this
>40 %.

It is still far too many to be healthy.

>Why these 151 000 persons were not allowed to vote. They are not
>citizens of Estonia. They HAVE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THEY APPLY
>For THE CITIZENSHIP OF ESTONIA, RUSSIA,UKRAINE,BELARUS,LITHUANIA,
>KIRGISISTAN,TADZIKISTAN,GERGIA,ARMENIA ETC.  Until now only
>c. 13 000 of them have applied for the citizenship of Estonia.

Ahum, my dear Jarmo, whether they had applied had no significance
at all, all these applications are still pending and the proposal
to give the 5.000 who had applied (as I think the number is, unless
you can refer to newer statistics) right to vote in the recent 
elections was turned down in the referendum.

>I cannot see such a situation possible that they could hold
>for instance a citizenship of Russia at the same time as the
>citizenship of Estonia. Very strage would it be.

On that I agree. But very few of them have applied for citizenship
anywhere. And you have to agree that Estonia state would be much
better off, if the Russian living there were Estonian citizens than
Russian citizens.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA?
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:45:35 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki


In article <1bb0sdINNs4d@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au
(INFIDEL) writes:

> The Latvian/Estonian fascists have mates shelling Sarajevo; world war
> two war crimes are well documented. Any Latvian or Estonian who believes
> that denying unconditional citizenship is a just way to build their
> nation is partaking of the legacy of fascism and therefore is morally
> culpable for fascist acts carried out in the past, present and future.

It should be obvious that I am not responsible of any deeds of any fascists
whatsoever. Neither the democratic Estonians.

>>You might be
>>tomorrow running amok in your local supermarket and killing dozens
>>of innocent Western Australians with your rifle!
>
> I will make sure that it is a Finnish supermarket and that you are
> amongst the crowd.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
No more questions, your honour.

Case closed.

Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Kuwaiti Estonia ?
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 08:57:33 GMT

muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: In article <1992Oct7.220902.6923@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
: >
: >Recheck your math.  If 40% of the whole population cannot vote, and this 40%
: >includes children, it means that the 40% number is misleadingly high.  If
: >the children are equally distributed among ethnic groups, that 40% number
: >will _still_ go down after you leave out the children.

Some basics:

The First lesson: there are approximately 600 000 non-estonians in Estonia.

The Second lesson: Of these all are not russians.

The Third lesson: Of these 600 000 non-estonians c. 100 000 got 
the citizenship automatically after the registration because
they were citizens of Estonia 1940 or are their descendants.

The fourth lesson: The real amount  of russians in Estonia
is c. 470 000. NOT 600 000! It includes all non-estonians with or
without citizenship. The 600 000 is used in propagandatory way,
I do not think for instance the ethnic Finns like to be called
as russians as some russians very chaivinistic way are claiming when
they claim 600 000 of being russians.

The fifth lesson: There were c. 151 000 adults of non-estonian orgin
who were not allowed to vote in Estonia. You can call them foreigners
and such types you find in every country. They have to decide whether
they apply for Estonian citizenship or not, or will they apply for instance
the citizenship of Russian,Ukraine,Belarus,Georgia,Kazakhstan etc....

The sixth lesson: There were over 600 000 persons who had a right to vote.
 
The seventh lesson: There are c. 1 600 000 persons living in Estonia.
Of them there are ethnic estonians c. 1000 000 million. 
Of this 1,6 mill. approximately 1,1 mill have got the citizenship.
The rest have to choose their side.
Jarmo
: 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:8418 soc.culture.jewish:17531