From: markd@cup.hp.com (Mark_Donohoe)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:28:23 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:
: In article <1992Jul27.183408.4261@src.umd.edu> frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt) writes:
: >You were nice Eric, I would have had no hesitation at kicking the
: >cairn maker over the edge with his cairns. Route finding is at least
: >half the fun in these situations.
: 
: Excuse me, but this can be a VERY dangerous attitude.  I produce as Exhibit
: A the trail on Pyramid Peak (the well-known Colorado 14er, not the various
: other Pyramids that exist in other states).  Pyramid is one of the Red Elks
: and notoriously dangerous due to rockfall hazard.  If you pick the right
: route, which by now has been reasonably well "gardened" of loose rock and
: in the process cairn-marked, it is an enjoyable climb, if relatively
: difficult by 14er standards (relatively?  Hah!).  If you *don't* follow this
: route, you can easily land in extremely serious trouble.  Experienced 
: climbers die on this mountain by getting off route.
: 
: The precise problem on this mountain is that route finding is NOT half the
: fun.  It is absolutely essential to a safe climb, but it is *not* fun.
: Compounding this problem is the fact that the standard guidebooks are starting
: to reflect the fact that a relatively safe -- marked -- route exists, and
: therefore that would-be climbers are expecting to find that route and are
: looking for it.  

Sorry, but you are mixing things up.  Even on the supposed well marked trail
you could have problems and carins will NOT prevent them.  In fact they could
also cause some...what if I made a carin off route, thinking it was the
'right' route, or was marking my way in case I returned that way??

In situations like this, there is simply NO best thing other than experience
and sometimes even that won't help.  You are mixing things up because 
Mountaineering IS DANGEROUS.  Know the risks.  Oh yea, if you think that
you are not mountaineering when doing the 14'ers you have much bigger problems
and a carin will not help you.

Sorry, but you have chosen to be in the mountains, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR
YOURSELF...it was YOUR CHOICE.

: How would you like to carry the moral -- possibly also legal,
: if you were caught -- burden of having knocked down a cairn on Pyramid and
: then had some climber, expecting to find a cairned route but having to "wing
: it" in the cairns' absence, make a route-finding error (very easy to do on 
: the Red Elks) and die as a result?
: 

This is so bogus!  What if there was a good avalanche or some such and the
carins are all gone, and I'm the 1st one up that year?  Gee I guess I should
sue nature :).

: The point of all this is that there are cairns and cairns.  On most 14ers they
: are marginally useful in the lowlands, and above timberline they are more of a
: liability than an asset anyway.  But in places like the summit ridge of
: Pyramid, it is IMHO bordering on criminally reckless to dismantle them.
: 

No, the real point is personal responsibility for your self and your saftey
when in the mountains.  Carins are generally a blight.  You have mixed up
mountaineering and saftey with carins as saftey markers....saftey is NOT
something carins can supply or ensure.
-- 
Mark Donohoe (markd@cup.hp.com)