From: allender@ils.nwu.edu (Laura Allender)
Subject: Re: Attending a More Traditional Service
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:10:24 GMT

israel@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert B. Israel) writes:
> 
> In <1992Oct7.172529.10123@ils.nwu.edu> allender@ils.nwu.edu (Laura Allender) writes:
> 

> >How could he say that? 
> 
> At this distance, it's hard to say just what he was objecting to. 
> Choirs are pretty standard at conservative services, especially for
> Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, although a Hillel might not have the
> resources to organize one.  Many orthodox shuls have choirs 
> (generally all male).  Presumably the style of the service, and 
> perhaps the role of the choir (if it did more than conservative 
> choirs usually do), bothered him.  
> 
> > What right does he have to judge
> >someone else's tradition?
> 
> He has the same right as anyone else to express his personal tastes.
Of course
> Perhaps he should have chosen his words more carefully to avoid 
> offending you.

This is the point!  Not just perhaps.. but definitely --
especially on Yom Kippur.



> > What makes one tradition (especially in
> >terms of music) more kosher then another? The people who attend treasure
> >their means of observance as much as those who attend a "traditional"
> >conservative service value their means of observance.
> 
> Some traditions are more traditional than others.  For those who are 
> concerned about halacha, there are some constraints.  Other than that,
> it's a matter of taste.   
> 
> >So why do I hear these criticisms again and again --
> >"it's just like a church", "too much English", I tend to agree
> >that sometimes there is too much English -- but so what if the church
> >also noticed that the sound of voices blending together is beautiful?!
> 
> Well, it's not just a coincidence.  I believe there was a conscious 
> effort among the forerunners of the reform movement to imitate the style 
> of Protestant church services.  Some of us would object to the idea of
> incorporating non-Jewish traditions.  On the other hand, it's clear that
> over the centuries non-Jewish music has also had some influence on 
> traditional synagogue music.     
> 

I've never heard this before. Evidence & sources please.

> >Why should we deny ourselves the beauty and inspiration that God has
> >given us in the form of voices and ears?  This closed mindedness --
> >only the cantor shall sing and the congregation mumble along -- doing
> >it another way is not treif -- it is simply different!
> 
> If the congregation is mumbling along, it's probably because they don't 
> know the words or melody.  I don't know if anyone would call this 
> desirable.  Many of the piyyutim on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur are 
> meant to be responsive - the congregation should be actively involved.  
> Of course, they won't all be good singers, so you don't get a nice 
> musical effect.  But (my personal tastes here) I'd rather be at a 
> service than a concert.  
> 
> >At a reform synagogue we read the same Torah and many of the same
> >prayers, and share many sentiments. What right does anyone have to
> >judge the method of observance of others?
> 
> What right do you have to deny them the freedom to express their views?

Yes, they can express their views, but is passing judgement and
condemning one interpretation encouraged or discouraged by Judaism?
(I sense that it is discouraged -- the question is what is the
Halachic thing to do, not whether he has the right to express an
opinion -- of course he does.)

> > I came to a conservative service, I listened to what they liked -- and I
> > appreciated it, but I still love the rich choral & musical tradition
> > of my synagogue -- it is different, yes -- but those of us who choose
> > to belong have the right to voice our prayers in full chorus.
> 
> Who is denying you this right?  

Noone, and I continue to do this. But the implication of calling this
practice treif is to say that it is not Jewish, and therefore the
people who incorporate these traditions are not Jewish.  I find
this quite insulting as you might imagine.  

>  
> > P.S. -- Classical Music Fans:
> >  If you've never heard Max Janowski's compositions for Yom Kippur
> > prayers and other festivals check them out they are beautiful just to
> > listen to.  
> 
> I also love classical music.  But I don't think it belongs in my shul.
Why not? (But yes you have the right to feel this way... on the other
hand it might be fun to listen to these beautiful interpretations of
Jewish Liturgy at home!)
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