From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: University of Turku
	<KRULWICH.92Dec30111428@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 93 12:10:23

In article <KRULWICH.92Dec30111428@zowie.ils.nwu.edu> krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich) writes:
> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
> > While it is easy to give modern renditions of a word without looking back at
> > antiquity as to the original meaning and purpose, i am dropping a couple of
> > logs onto the fire, so as to help others see what the true meaning of Almah
> > is.

> "Without looking back at antiquity" ?!?

> Noone on the net even comes close to spending the amount of time studying the
> Bible and traditional Jewish writings that is spent by Orthodox scholars
> studying in Yeshiva and Kollel.  Harvey proves this later with his supposed
> Talmud quote.

Orthodox scholars have their reasons for translating 'almah' as 'a young
maiden', one of them being to prevent folks becoming minim (heretics /
ma'aminei Yeshua haNotzri).

> > In Rabbinics, it is interpreted as  "A young maiden"

> Right.  A young maiden who could be married (and thus not a virgin) or married
> (and thus presumably a virgin).

As Harvey says, that's what _Rabbinics_ say, but it's not the correct 
meaning of 'almah' -- the correct meaning is 'virgin'.

There's a verb with the same root as 'almah' -- 'le'alem' - 'to hide'.
Furthermore, the etymological meaning for 'betulah' is 'separated'.
Thus, which one is more likely to mean virgin...? The meaning of these
words can also be seen based on their usage in Tanach. There are a 
couple of verses in which the meaning of 'betulah' is unclear, e.g.
Joel 1:8, whereas in the verses using 'almah' (Gen 24:43, Ex 2:8, 
Ps 68:26, Prov 30:19, Song of Songs 1:3, 6:8 and Is 7:14) the girl(s) 
can only be a virgin. As to Prov 30:19, I have an interpretation for 
it by Bruce Tiffany, if anyone is interested... 
 
> > The prophet Isaiah, rings faithful to his prophecy and states boldly:
> > "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a child and his name shall be
> > called Immanuel (G-d with us)."

> Proof tactic number one: proof by forceful assertion.

Harvey is just saying the truth... It's others here who have to use 
the above tactics...

> BTW, can you tell me how you get the phrase "shall conceive" from the original
> Hebrew?  The Hebrew actually says "is pregnant" in the present tense.

The point is that you have to look at the whole verse, not dividing it 
into tiny pieces (like Rashi) or trying to force it into a larger "context".
In the beginning of the verse it says: 'Lachen _yiten_ Adonai hu lachem 
ot...' (Therefore the Lord himself _will give_ you [plural] a sign), and 
the description of the sign follows.

- Laura


--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33