HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rinehart)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self defense hypothetical
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:24:55 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <lairdb.727989452@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:

### clip  (doesn't apply in my case, at least not yet :-)  you should
### "fingerprint-proof" your bullets.
#
#
#I would have to guess that the originator might mean a situation where
#perhaps the act *was* self defense, but the being-armed was unlawful.

I can understand if from this point of view.

     ** Another Scenario **
     Say there is a large riot somewhere or just a general case of unrest in 
society that makes you feel the need to carry your gun with you. You don't have
the time or the money to get the proper permits to do so legally. On your way 
to or from work, you are approached by some individuals who obviously intend to
cause you and/or your family serious harm. What are you going to do?

     A) Get severly beat up and possibly killed.

     B) Shoot the thugs, wait for police to arrive, arrest you for murder. Send
you to jail and take your gun. You may not go to prison but you will lose your 
gun.

     C) Shoot the thugs, leave quickly knowing that the police will be looking
for enemies of the thugs. There won't be any fingerprints on the brass to even
make you a suspect.



I know that this is probably straying from the charter but I would like to see
what kinds of discussion come up.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns used in assassinations
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:57:19 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
## 	Malcom X: some sort of 9mm para pistol.

#I think it was a sawed off shotgun in the network show I watched recently.

I may have been very wrong.   I thought I read in a book years ago that 
he died when he answered his door, and that he was full of 9 hardball. 
Maybe he owned a 9.   Maybe he had 9 kids. I don't know, it was
a while ago.

8^)

Jim D
From: purtilo@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: belt rigs
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:20:02 GMT

Now here's a question about something I know I've seen a bunch of times,
but now that I think of it I can't remember how it typically looks ....

With a fellow shooter, I was talking about belt rigs (whether for IPSC or duty) 
for one's sidearm, and we couldn't quite figure out whether the usual practice
is to have a "normal" belt to hold up one's pants then place a heavier duty
belt OVER the normal one ...  OR, to lace the duty belt through one's pants
loops, and fuss around to get the holsters, utility and doodad holders in place
as you install it.   Seems like two belts is bulky, but I know I've seen where
officers would quickly undue the duty belt with gear in order to pass to a
fellow officer (during climbing or some wierd activity).  And doing neither
(that is, not wearing any belt in pants loops, and just buckling the duty 
rig around you quickly) is a direct invitation to heckling as fellows with
a figure like mine find their trowsers down around the knees and a heavy duty
belt snug up under the rolling belly....

What am I missing here?

I'm sure this has some obvious answer I've overlooked ... as does that other
burning trivia question I've never had the courage to ask, which is how to tie
one's boot laces so there aren't big loops hanging out to catch on whatever?
[This is not the simple "well tie 'em and then roll the left overs under the
fatigues" or "tuck 'em into the boot top, dummy" techniques; I'm referring to
a way of lacing them such that it looks like it was done from the inside.]
[Clearly its been too long a first week of classes if I'm so punch drunk as 
to worry about this kind of nonsense on a friday night....]

Jim

Xref: sparky rec.guns:20035 talk.politics.guns:27038
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: "Sniper" with John Berringer
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:39 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

I was watching the Military Industrial Complex channel (A&E) last night
and saw an advertisement for a new movie called "Sniper" starring John
Berringer.  The movie starts playing, I believe, Feb. 24th.  Look for it
at a theatre near you, and all that ...

One of the voiceovers during the ad said, "One shot, one kill"  Hmm,
sounds very familiar; I wonder if material from Carlos Hathcocks' book
was used, or if he or any of the men in his book was a consultant.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting under water?
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:59:59 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

.edu> boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman) writes:
##sodium nitrate, NaNO2.
# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
##  (rest deleted)
#	Small correction - black powder is made from saltpeter,charcoal,and
#  sulfur, but saltpeter is POTASSIUM nitrate, KNO3, not sodium nitrate.
#  Sodium nitrate has been used as a replacement for potassium nitrate in
#  some blasting powders, but has the problem of having a much higher affinity
#  for water, which causes problems if the humidity is much higher than out
#  here in NM :-).  The confusion may have arisen from an older term for
#  sodium nitrate: "Chile Saltpeter", I guess because Chile supplied a great
#  deal of the sodium nitrate imported in the past.
#  -Bob
#
	Sodium nitrate and Sodium nitrite, as well as chilis, are common
addatives to ham, bologna, Spam, and other cured meats like bacon.
-case
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:57:04 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <19609@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#
##WHy is it that many pistol target shooters put their non-shooting
##hand in their pockets ?
#
#It seems like a good place to put it.  TV technicians working around
#high voltage keep one hand tucked into the belt behind their backs..

hehe

#I think your real question is, why are they shooting one-handed?
#That must be because the official rules of their particular competition

exactly

#require it.  Of course for defense shooting one uses both hands by
#preference.

have you told the army?

#[MODERATOR:  Another consideration.  Folks with a, hmmm, curvaceous 
#figure like mine tend to be front heavy.  Standing with one's arm 
#straight out holding a few pounds of pistol can further throw off
#one's center of gravity.  Anything to get my weight off on the other
#side for counterbalance is desirable.... (for precise balancing I 
#suppose I should stuff a couple of pizzas in a backpack....)]

this comes close. not only to balance, but also to put the hand not in use
somewhere where it will stay put and not moving about all the time, thus
being able to only worry about balancing the shooting arm


cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: keith@orioncmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm [RELOADING]
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:22 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

How does one safely go about determining a safe load for an unlisted
bullet?  The more reloading I do, the more I see that it is far
from an exact science.

Here's the problem:  My local bullet supplier makes 125gr 135gr and
142gr bullet (hard cast) for 9mm Luger.  I currently use the 125gr
with Bullseye & Blue Dot.  I want to try the 135gr and 142gr bullets
(for IPSC minor) with one of these powders.  Of course, there are
no loads listed for either of these non-standard bullet weights.

If we take the Blue Dot powder, the published data gives:

125gr bullet  -  7.5gr to 8.3gr
147gr bullet  -  4.2gr to 5.5gr

For Bullseye:

125gr bullet  -  4.6gr to 5.0gr  (Speer)
              -  4.1gr to 4.4gr  (Hornady)
147gr bullet  -  no loads shown for Bullseye

So what would be a safe starting point for a 135gr or 142gr bullet?
Is there one?  Apparently, data sheets supplied with some Lee
equipment (powder thrower?) gives loads for 'ranges' of bullet 
weights, making this even less scientific.  Would 10gr increase in
bullet weight result in unsafe pressures if the same powder load 
is used?
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: mjalava@lk-hp-20.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:04 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

I have been wondering this talk about reloaded vs. factory ammo in
self defence. Why on earth does it matter what you shoot in a perp,
the matter is that you shoot at all? Actually, if someone thinks it's
OK to use a .44 Mag for defensive purposes, why would it be wrong to
use reloaded 9mm at ++++P++++ or anything, it will never be as
powerful. A gun is a gun, a bullet may kill the unfortunate target
even if it is a .25 auto. If you are in a situation where you may use
deadly force, then you may use it. The tools are not important. If the
only thing available is an anti-tank rocket and you can use it without
danger to bystanders, then I think that's the way to go.

Of course, that's how I think it SHOULD be, the reality may differ.
Well, the American idea of law and order is quite different from the
European. Sorry for the politics, let's go back to technical issues.

In article <1993Jan24.071954.11497@chpc.org> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:

#No matter how good you are at reloading, you're not going to match
#the process control and monitoring of a "real" ammo factory 

?????????????

The reason for reloading may be savings in ammo costs, but quite many
target shooters reload just because the process is much easier to
control and the results are more consistent.

	Mika
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: brass guns??
Date: 25 Jan 93 03:09:47 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan24.020640.16577@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

##Most bronzes (other name form brass, contrary to myth) will be stronger
##that zinc and its alloys.  One passible exception is Zamak.  I've made a few
##castings using this metal and it did not impress me AT ALL.  Pretty cheap
##stuff.  
#
#	I thought Zamek was a type of zinc?   You mean it is brass?

Please forgive my poor sentence formulation.  The exception I was speaking of
was of zinc alloys, of which Zamak is one.  Apologies.

	-Andy V.
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: speaking of semi-automatic "assualt" weapons...
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:11 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

As a purely informational note, and with follow-ups directed to 
talk.politics.guns...

In article <1993Jan21.170430.596@iqsc.COM> rex@iqsc.COM (Rex Black) writes:
#Just overheard on NPR, which is covering the Judiciary Committee's 
#sessions on Zoe Baird:
#Dianne Fienstein (Mrs. 2nd Amendment):  Do you support a ban on semi-
#automatic assualt weapons?
#Zoe Baird:  Yes.  I know that Bill Clinton is committed to this as well.

Ms. Baird has withdrawn her name from consideration for Attorney General.
Apparently this is a result of Senatorial opposition (presumably because
she admitted to comitting a felony...) I haven't heard who Clinton
will select as his next candidate, although I suspect the candidate's
position on gun control will be (roughly) similar.

                                                 Frank Crary
                                                 CU Boulder
From: skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New ParaOrdnance P12-45 Question
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:02:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jan20.150825.18512@ulysses.att.com> les@ulysses.att.com (Leslie Johnson) writes:
#In article <1993Jan19.230540.7140@cbfsb.cb.att.com> skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone) writes:
##If I recall correctly the largest ParaOrdnance was the P14-45.
##Was this 14+1 or 13+1 ?
#
#My PO in .45 came with a 13 round magazine + 1 in the chamber, but 15
#round mags are now available.  The new frame I saw had the 15 rounder,
#which has a rubber butt pad.
#


I guess thats a P16-45 :)

Thanx,
stu
From: weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:21 GMT



Michael Janeczko writes:
                                    
# Another point my father made that I guess makes sense is that when loading a
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ??? 
# clip  (doesn't apply in my case, at least not yet :-)  you should 
# "fingerprint-proof" your bullets.  This can be done by loading the clip with a 
# glove on or use a towel when loading.  This gives one less piece of evidence 
# tieing you to the gun.  It may not help, but why give the prosecutor any kind 
# of edge.


Excuse me but I don't quite follow this logic.  Are you saying that, in a 
valid home defense situation, where a reasonable and prudent individual has 
found his life or the life of his (her) family, to be in jeapordy, and 
fires his gun in self defense, the individual should cover it up, even
to the extent of "fingerprint-proofing" your bullets (brass)?

So when the police come, and fine a dead perp and a few brass cases on the
carpet, and a gun, presumably neither of which have fingerprints, what are 
you going to say?  "Uh, well officer, this guy busted into my house carrying
a gun, then I heard a few shots from another gun, then I came out here
and found him dead.  Don't know what happened."

The fastest surest way to go to jail for a long time is to be dishonest, to 
cover up your actions, to not report your actions immediately, to be
uncooperative.

There have been enormous volumes of excellent information on dealing with 
home defense situations in rec.guns.  Perhaps someone could post a 
summary of some sort.  Perhaps even a FAQ?

-- Dan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Weed                                       weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
              "My comments are my own, not my employer's"
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why ?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:10:45 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores-of-the-Pacific, California

In article <19609@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#
#In article <28549@sybase.sybase.com> mtxinu!sybase.sybase.com!thorick@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Thorick Chow) writes:
##WHy is it that many pistol target shooters put their non-shooting
##hand in their pockets ?
#
#It seems like a good place to put it.  TV technicians working around
#high voltage keep one hand tucked into the belt behind their backs..

I do it not for safety reasons, but because it was shown in some
gun mag once as something that some guy who won matches did.  I tried
it.  It got rid of the 'arm hanging there flailing around while waiting
for the other hand to shoot' problem ;-)

Try it.  Hand in pocket is natural and keeps the arm still without
any tight muscles.  It also doesn't 'drift' around as you move slightly
or the wind blows... so your balance stays more constant.  And you
don't have that strange akward feeling (like being posed stiffly at
a wedding ...) that comes from being consious of your arm just dangling
by your side...

#
#I think your real question is, why are they shooting one-handed?
#That must be because the official rules of their particular competition
#require it.  Of course for defense shooting one uses both hands by
#preference.

Well, some of us shoot one handed but don't shoot in any official
anything with rules.  Why?  Well, it's just so darned easy to hit the 
black all the time using two hands that we have to do SOMETHING to put
a little challenge in it.  (Unfortunatly, that needs a major ;-) ...
Really, though, I LIKE to shoot one handed for 2 reasons.  It IS 
more difficult, and it DOES feel more natural.  Strangly enough,
after a bit of practice at the hand in pocket, my one handed shooting
is about as good (or bad ...) as my two handed...  I just like the
way it feels to do it one handed.  (And it looks so cool ...)

For defense I would use a one handed hold at anything other than
a long range target.  Why?  My other hand will be:  {holding a
flashlight, plugging one ear, turning on/off room lights, 
opening/closing doors, holding my OTHER gun, holding my short sword,
calling 911 on the cellular, ...}  Practice that one handed hold
from time to time ... you may need it...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rod Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .44Magnum loads
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:24 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.

In article <9301190818.aa06395@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burg
) writes:
#In article <9301180329.AA01027@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@orioncmc.ca (Kei
h de Solla) writes:
##I have a friend looking for powder recommendations for hot .44Mag
##loads for a Ruger Super Blackhawk.  Any suggestions?
##(No, really, it is for a friend. :-) I don't own a .44Mag)
##
#
#The best all around powder for 44 mag is W-W 296, I use it for 44 mag,
#454 Casull, and used it for top end loads in 357Max.  W-W 680 is also
#a great powder, but not well understood.  W-W 296 all but killed my use
#of 2400.  H4227 is also supposed to be good, but I have never used it.
#
#Bill	burge@qdeck.com


I like H 4227 because it has very little muzzle flash.  Useful when
you are using a indoor range.  W-W 296 has a HUGE muzzle flash.

Rod Anderson           rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Effectiveness of pepper gas
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:55:27 GMT
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA

#I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the fairly new
#irritant gasses containing Oleoresin Capsicum.

I'm was told by a lady displaying the 10% and 15% variety at a recent
show that Oleoresin Capsicum is only approved for use against animals
in California.  She paused, and then added, "The 15% is good for
animals up to 250lbs."

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail:           39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511
From: justice@Panix.Com (Michael Justice)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gun engineering & materials info needed
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:36 GMT
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC

Regrettably, I am a software nerd, not a mechanical engineer.
("Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a _________!")

I have a gun design that I would like to build.  Unfortunately,
I know nothing about what steels to use, how the pieces should
be hardened, how much pounding the different parts will have to
endure, or how the different bearing surfaces should be treated
to minimize wear on the less-easily-replaceable parts.

Can anyone point me in the direction of some introductory books?
If they're directly oriented toward firearms, that would be most
excellent, although just about anything would do.  Something on
building car engines from scratch (no junkyard parts) would be
perfect.  Engineering texts would be fine.

Thanks for any pointers!

Some design information, for the curious:

It's basically a Gatling gun, with a few quirks.  I've shown it
to a couple of people, and the consensus is that as long as I
build it strong enough to stand the explosions, it should work.

Two concerns are about the bolts and the track they ride on.
(1) will the track get dented from the bolts pounding back at
each shot, and (2) will the bolts or the track get worn down
by sliding around against each other all the time?

The cartridge will be whatever is HARSHEST on guns among the
standard short auto cartridges (.22LR, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP),
since one goal is to make calibers interchangeable, and
overengineering for .22 is preferable to blowing up with 9mm.
Design life will have to be in the hundreds-of-thousands of
rounds, naturally.

Barrel-wise, I'll just be using T/C Contender barrels;  the
bolts and magazine adapters will have to be interchangeable
as well, however.

			  Thanks,

			-- Michael.
--
Michael A. Justice / "Hey, wait a minute!  You guys are CONSULTANTS!
justice@panix.com /   You're not supposed to insult me, you're supposed
NRA Life / ILA   /    to KISS MY BUTT!  What is WRONG with you people?!?"
ISRA            /                 -- Glenn, having a bad day
From: pmm2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PATRICK M MURPHY)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SPAS-12 trivia question
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:54 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <199301220331.AA12224@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, vtessier@vela.acs.oaklan
d.edu (Vince Tessier) writes:
#There seems to be fairly consistent opinion that the Franchi SPAS-12
#is one of the ugliest/scariest guns around ... this brought to mind
#a recent discussion with my usually-reliable source (for whom I'm
#attempting to arrange inexpensive Internet access).
#
#What's the hook on the SPAS-12 stock for?  It's usually thought of
#as a device to allow using this enormously heavy shotgun one-handed,
#but that's not its principal purpose.
#
#The authority for my answer, which I'll post in a week or so if no one
#gets it, is a conversation my usually-reliable source had with Luigi
#Franchi at the '88 AUSA show.
#--
#Vince Tessier  vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu
#
#"Capital punishment reduces the rate of recidivism to an acceptable level"
In reply to the posted question:  The hook on the spas-12, told to me
by the owner of one, serves as support while firing from a concealed
position. Such as around the edge of a wall in an alley or a doorway.
  Not taking his word alone we took the monster out and tested it out.
Yes the hook does serve as support while firing around trees (simulated
walls) There is alot of stress placed on the firing arm and I was
sore for days but had lots of fun anyway. >
                                             PAT
From: webdw@cbnews.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self defense hypothetical
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:16:00 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jan27.022736.6481@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#In article <1993Jan26.143939.746@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shawn L Rinehart) writes:
## ...
##There won't be any fingerprints on the brass to even
##make you a suspect.
#
#  They are making this new wonderful type of handgun which doesn't
#throw brass all over the neighborhood.  Instead it retains the
#brass in the gun until you remove it.  There is even a handy
#"ejector rod and star" to allow you to remove all the brass at
#one time and control where it goes.

(or, per the buyer's option, available with individual brass
removal and loading system...)
#
#  I'd suggest a look into this modern technology.
#
#--henry schaffer
#
BDW