HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Gravity and Astrology (Re: bullshit )
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:55:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.015131.27159@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, ash@sumex-aim.stanford.edu (David Ash) writes...
>In article <rigking.1.728004438@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au> rigking@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (GAVIN KING) writes:
> 
>>When those who believe in astrology can propose some explanation as to *how* 
>>the planets influence our daily lives, I will quite happily accept the
>>study of astrology as worthwhile and rewarding. 
> 
>When those who believe in the law of gravity can propose some explanation
>as to *how* the earth pulls objects toward its center, I will quite happily
>accept the study of gravity as worthwhile and rewarding.

Actually, its quite easy to explain *how* (i.e. in what manner).  This could be
cast in either Newtonian, Relativistic, or even (with less assurance) a Quantum
Field Theory. The Newtonian explanation is admittedly incomplete, since it
involves action-at-a-distance behavior.  Relativity improves on this by
relating the curvature of space-time (which determines the paths objects
travel) to the distribution of matter.  Hence objects are affected by a local
condition (the curvature), but how the curvature is communicated over distance
is still unclear (in relativity).  Quantum field theories complete the picture
with one or more intermediary particles which are exchanged between
gravitationally interacting bodies, and at last the theory is completely local.

It's the *why* (i.e. for what reason) that science does not and cannot answer.

It is quite easy to be convinced of the reality of gravitational effects, but
astrological ones are tenuous at best.  All gravitationally interacting bodies
obey fairly simple laws in all places (that we've looked) and all times (that
we've looked).

I believe though the original poster was trying to point out that there is no
evidence of a means of transmission, and that a lot of possibilities have been
checked and exhausted.  Further, since we know the planets to be made of the
same substances as things here on Earth, it isn't clear why these large but
distant clumps of rock or gas should have the ability to influence the most
intimate physical and psychological characteristics of a newborn at precisely
the moment of birth.  In other words, the question is not just how the effects
are transmitted, but what is special about a particular group of apparently
mundane objects like planets.

So, I have to take friendly exception to the analogy with gravity.


Dave
From: yockneyj@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Bleach Boy)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Bullshit.HEY!SO WHAT?!
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:43:51 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

Following on from what i said earlier (which was a quick response
as i didnt have time to plan out a good coherent argument)...

i dont absolutely believe in astrology EITHER.But I recognise that there
must be some good reason why it has survived for so many 1000's
of years.so i'm trying to learn about it,calculate charts,
see if I can find any way that astrological theory has effect
in MY life and the lives of those around me...like,pluto went into
scorpio and chernobyl went bang.Maybe no more than coincidence but 
surely worth investigating? Religions dont work for me cos i deep
down dont believe there IS any greater force or whatever "up there".
Astrology can fit in with my mental model of the universe (if the
moon affects the tides it can affect chemical releases in our bodies...
which in turn determine mood which determines a lot of what life
will be like surely...there can be some scientific reasoning behind
what the ancients could never understand but only observe)

....after all...

Isaac Newton could have said that an apple falling from a tree
toward the earth was "just a coincidence" and ignored it.
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:42:09 EST
From: Arielle R. Cohen <AC8900A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: my birthday

Well, My name is Arielle Rachel Cohen and my now dead grandfather was also born
 on this day at the same time that you mentioned that you were born. The only t
hing that I can tell you is that he was one of the most warm, loving and loving
 men I have ever encountered. Wait, that almost sounds like he molested to me o
r something. No he didn't. We were just very close. He took me all around Europ
e and showed me many things I had only dreamed of before. But back to his perso
nality traits. He was a man of extraordinary manual dexterity. He could put tog
ether the most intricate of toothpick sculptures. He loved people; he was extre
mely outgoing and friendly. He was also very helpful (especially when it came t
o helping me with my math homework) I don't know if any of this is of any use t
o you whatsoever but I hpoe that you are as good a person as my grandfather
was. Thanks for your time.
From: krivitzk@atlantic.cps.msu.edu (Krivitzky Aaron M)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Chart Interpretation Anyone??
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:59:20 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.cps.msu.edu


  Hi people.  If anyone is sitting around with nothing to do (or would like
some practice interpretting a chart), could you do mine?  I have gone to two 
different local astrologers who have computed and interpretted my chart, but
they have fairly different interpretations.  Now, I know this difference could
be due to many things (i.e. experience, knowledge, methods used, etc.)  Since
it seems that some astrologers disagree, I thought I'd get several people's
opinion.

  The necessary info is:
       LONG. 085.55
       LAT.   43.20
       TIME   10:22 am
       DATE   09-06-70

Thanks,

Aaron.
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: yohan@wam.umd.edu (Deore)
Subject: Re: bullshit
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:40:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.182825.21314@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> vwp@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (mark.a.skala) writes:
>In article <1jnp5hINNrm3@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ap856@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John A. Wincek) writes:
>>Have you studied astrology?  I think not.  From my own personal experience
>>I have found the "science" of astrology to be a valid one.  Biology never
>>appealed to me and I seriously doubt that the subject I found terminally
>>boaring in school would now suddenly richly reward me.  Now, I'm not
>>doubting it's validity, it just holds no appeal.  And since astrology holds
>>no appeal to you, you might be better served reading alt. bio. or some
>>other "rewarding" board.  And you might ask yourself why you don't  believe
>>in astrology.  Is it because of exhaustive research on your part which
>>proved it's non existance or is it just your uneducated opinion?  Or
>>perhaps you listen to others opinions?  "Others don't believe in it, why
>>not me?"  
>>
>>john
>
>Personal experience is not "science".  Also, you seem to be saying that
>people should believe in something until they find a reason not to.  I
>think it should be the other way around.  If astrology is valid, it should
>be very easy to prove.  Use the scientific method; conduct valid, repeatable
>experiments.  If anyone can show proof they have any paranormal powers,
>the magician James Randi has had an outstanding many thousand-dollar
>reward for about 20 years, just waiting for you to come and claim it.
>
>Mark A. Skala                            "Anything worth doing is worth
>vwp@cbnewsk.att.com                       doing to excess."


Does everything in life have to be experimentally proven to you so that
it is valid?  So how come scientists still can't find out how trees take 
in water from their roots and transport them up hundreds of feet to the 
leaves?  Sure, they have guesses, but no one still nows how, since there 
is a gravitational force acting against the water?  But still, the trees
still get their water, somehow right?  Same thing with astrology.  Sometimes
you can't explain everything in life, yet it works.  Sure, you say that 
science is much more rewarding because it gives us valid explinations, but
who says everything in life can be fully explained?  If science is so 
beneficial to us, how come we still can't find a cure for the common
cold?  You should always THINK before you speak.  No one is telling
you to BELIEVE in astrology, but at least accept the fact that it 
EXISTS and there are people who study it.  

Each person has a unique way of finding enlightment, so don't put them
down just because you don't think they are right.  Remember, if
you Mind, it will matter.  If you DON'T MIND, it won't matter.  Simple
as that..


yohan
From: mpajula@phoenix.oulu.fi (Marketta Pajula)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: tarot cards
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:31:59 GMT
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


Hi, I have italian explanations of tarots and I understand some frence.
Perhaps I could help you.

O.Pajula			
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: lorenmo@microsoft.com (Loren Moore)
Subject: Re: Musings about the wildness
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:16:59 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.

In article <Carole-220193152643@cis_staff-kntx43.cis.brown.edu> Carole@brownvm wrote:
> In article <1jpfp7INNm5r@lester.appstate.edu>, CONEGA@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
> (Greg Cone) wrote:
> > 
> > Just a brief FYI follow-up about saturn returns:
> > 
> > The movie, 'JFK', came out at the same time as saturn's first return
> > to its position on that fateful day in November, 1963.
> 
> 
> As the great Noel Tyl would say  "Isn't it amazing!"

more on saturn...

during my saturn return I was deciding whether or not to seperate from
my ex-wife. I moved out 2 weeks later. That was 4 years ago, before I 
knew much about astrology, and before I'd ever heard of saturn returns.

ah, and btw, I'm finally out of my saturn square venus. I thought it'd
never end (it kept going in and out on me). to be fair, I think I did 
learn quite a bit. I guess we'll see about that.

daemien
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Ophiuchi
From: jfeldhouse@miavx3.mid.muohio.edu (Jim Feldhouse)
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:44:09 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: as little as possible

Why isn't Ophiuchi included among the signs of the zodiac?
The ecliptic goes right thru it.
Why isn't it included?  Anyone know?

Thanks
Born under Ophiuchi, not Scorpio
Jim
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Info needed: Sidereal, long., and lat.
From: CSC9242546G@LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (JUNACKO,Steven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:18:16 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Hi-

I've just had a Hindu horoscope done and am wondering what Sidereal
means.  Also,  I'm having some problems working out longitude and latitude.

The birth details on the horoscope are:
	Date: 8th May 1974
	Place: Krapina,  Yugoslavia (near Zagreb)
               45N50,  18E59
	Time: 1:00 pm
     	GMT time: 12:00 (noon)   

Everything seems okay except when I look up Krapina in the atlas the 
coordinates are:
		46N10,  15E52

I was confused because there was a difference so I entered the info into
the program STAR and ASTRO271.  

STAR gives coordinates close to what it says in the atlas whereas ASTRO271
gives coordinates as in my Hindu horoscope.

Now I'm very confused as to what is happening.  If anybody could help I'd
greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Steven Junacko
-csc9242546g@lust.latrobe.edu.au
From: urban@ss15.cps.msu.edu (Mark Urban-Lurain)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: * Astrolog birthchart program version 2.40 [Part 1/7] Update
Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:55:54 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University, CPS Department
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ss15.cps.msu.edu
Keywords: Astrolog 2.40

Hi:

I'm having problems with the uuencoded PC files which were posted.

I've removed the headers for the 4 part .EXE version and for the
2 part .ZIP file. I then CATed the 4 .EXE files into one file and
the 2 .ZIP files into another file.`

uudecode works fine on the .ZIP file.  However, when I download
it to my PC, PKUNZIP reports  that FORMULAS.C fails CRC check.
PKZIPFX doesn't help.  The ASTROLOG.ZIP file is 94919 bytes.

when I download the resulting astrolog.exe file and try to 
execute it, it hangs my pc so hard I can't reboot the 
dos window under Win 3.1, I have to do a cold boot.
ASTROLOG.EXE file is 319634 bytes.

Here are the sizes of the various UU files.
-rw-r--r--  1 urban      439955 Jan 26 10:39 astrolog24.exe.uu
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       92963 Jan 26 10:38 astrolog24.exe.uu1
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       92994 Jan 26 10:38 astrolog24.exe.uu2
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       93002 Jan 26 10:38 astrolog24.exe.uu3
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       93002 Jan 26 10:39 astrolog24.exe.uu4
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       67994 Jan 26 10:39 astrolog24.exe.uu5
-rw-r--r--  1 urban      130830 Jan 26 10:20 astrolog24.zip.uu
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       61960 Jan 26 10:19 astrolog24.zip.uu1
-rw-r--r--  1 urban       68870 Jan 26 10:08 astrolog24.zip.uu2

The ones with numbers after UU are the extracted postings, with the
headers removed.  the ones just ending in UU are the CATed files
on which I ran uudecode.

Suggestions?  

Thanks
-- 
Mark Urban-Lurain                        urban@cps.msu.edu
Computer Science Dept.                   urbanluraimg@clvax1.cl.msu.edu
Michigan State University
A-714 Wells Hall                         (517) 353-0682   office
East Lansing, MI     48824               (517) 353-2934   department
From: rich@unislc.uucp (Richard Adams)
Subject: test-apologies
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:43:21 GMT


Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Subject: Re: question from beginner
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:30:10 GMT


You can also rectify your chart with astrocartography.
On the plus side, it's easy and gives exact birthtimes.
On the negative side, it doesn't work if there aren't
any planet angles where you've lived, or the angle
affecting where you've lived in heavily aspected
and so changes the interpretation.  In other words
it doesn't work for everyone.  But it's worth trying.
There's a file of instructions and interpretations
at the archive site.
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Favorite Mail-Order Astrology (was Re: charts)
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:40:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


I suggest that everyone interested in astrology
get Astro Computing Service's catalog.  It's
the most complete I've seen.  You can't do
astrology without at least some of their books,
such as Shanks' time change atlases.  And
they have software, services, etc.

Astro Computing Service
(619) 297-9203
(800) 888-9983
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: rigking@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (GAVIN KING)
Subject: bullshit
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:27:18 GMT

RDate: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:09:12 +1100
From: rigking@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (GAVIN KING)
Subject: Re: bullshit
Cc: rigking@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au
Message-Id: <rigking.1.727960155@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au>
In article <1jnp5hINNrm3@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> you write:
>From: ap856@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John A. Wincek)
>Subject: Re: bullshit
>Date: 22 Jan 1993 03:20:17 GMT
>In a previous article, rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (rabjab) says:
>>In article <rigking.1.727363471@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au> rigking@halls1.cc.
>>monash.edu.au (GAVIN KING) writes:
>>
>>>I cannot believe that thinking human beings can actually believe this stuff.
>>
>>I must agree with this.  The chance that the other planets has any effect
>>at all on the lives of human beings is vanishingly small.  
>>
>>The effect on Earth lifeforms of the sun and moon is of course a matter
>>of record, from purely physical considerations.
>>
>>Astrology is simply an ancient attempt to understand the universe and
>>its effect on human beings and has been superceeded by astrophysics,
>>biology and psychology.
>>
>>Give up astrology for modern science and you will be richly rewarded.
>>
>>-rabjab
>>
>Have you studied astrology?  I think not.  From my own personal experience
>I have found the "science" of astrology to be a valid one.  Biology never
>appealed to me and I seriously doubt that the subject I found terminally
>boaring in school would now suddenly richly reward me.  Now, I'm not
>doubting it's validity, it just holds no appeal.  And since astrology holds
>no appeal to you, you might be better served reading alt. bio. or some
>other "rewarding" board.  And you might ask yourself why you don't  believe
>in astrology.  Is it because of exhaustive research on your part which
>proved it's non existance or is it just your uneducated opinion?  Or
>perhaps you listen to others opinions?  "Others don't believe in it, why
>not me?"  
>john
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
When those who believe in astrology can propose some explanation as to *how* 
the planets influence our daily lives, I will quite happily accept the
study of astrology as worthwhile and rewarding. Of course, to do so would 
allow astrology to be subjected to the rigour of scientific enquiry, 
possibly leading to its falsification, so I cannot see too many doing this. 
To those who lead their lives on the basis of the advice of astrologers, I 
offer the following advice: read Karl Popper on the philosophy of science. 
Astrological predictions are framed in such language as to make them 
unfalsifiable, thus rendering astrology as a theory worthless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nielson@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Kathlina Nielson)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: stars names?
Date: 28 Jan 93 22:45:58 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Carole@brownvm (Carolyn Egan) writes:

>In article <Jan.26.17.18.53.1993.13424@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
>nielson@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Kathlina Nielson) wrote:
>e.
>> A friend of mine and I are looking for the names of some stars 
>>   (including binaries) that lie in the Milky Way.  We perfer names
>>   of rare/uncommon stars.  

>A very good listing of *fixed store* is contained in a text  by Vivian
>Robson I think the title is FIXED STARS.  

Thanks all see if I can find it.
                      ---kat
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: rich@unislc.uucp (Richard Adams)
Subject: test-apologies
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Summary: Just a test - apologies
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:54:57 GMT


This is only a test - please disregard
From: CONEGA@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (Greg Cone)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Musings about the wildness
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:52:23 GMT
Organization: APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY
NNTP-Posting-Host: alf.appstate.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Just a brief FYI follow-up about saturn returns:

The movie, 'JFK', came out at the same time as saturn's first return
to its position on that fateful day in November, 1963.

Greg
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: vwp@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (mark.a.skala)
Subject: Re: bullshit
Organization: AT&T Network Systems
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:28:25 GMT

In article <1jnp5hINNrm3@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ap856@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John A. Wincek) writes:
>Have you studied astrology?  I think not.  From my own personal experience
>I have found the "science" of astrology to be a valid one.  Biology never
>appealed to me and I seriously doubt that the subject I found terminally
>boaring in school would now suddenly richly reward me.  Now, I'm not
>doubting it's validity, it just holds no appeal.  And since astrology holds
>no appeal to you, you might be better served reading alt. bio. or some
>other "rewarding" board.  And you might ask yourself why you don't  believe
>in astrology.  Is it because of exhaustive research on your part which
>proved it's non existance or is it just your uneducated opinion?  Or
>perhaps you listen to others opinions?  "Others don't believe in it, why
>not me?"  
>
>john

Personal experience is not "science".  Also, you seem to be saying that
people should believe in something until they find a reason not to.  I
think it should be the other way around.  If astrology is valid, it should
be very easy to prove.  Use the scientific method; conduct valid, repeatable
experiments.  If anyone can show proof they have any paranormal powers,
the magician James Randi has had an outstanding many thousand-dollar
reward for about 20 years, just waiting for you to come and claim it.

Mark A. Skala                            "Anything worth doing is worth
vwp@cbnewsk.att.com                       doing to excess."
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: chi8@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Eugenia)
Subject: Re: bullshit
Reply-To: chi8@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:59:30 GMT

This might be a little off topic, but at the mention of Kuhn, i recalled 
an interesting discussion on the philosophy and implications of modern
science (including touching on Kuhn's idea of paradigms, logical 
empiricism, etc.) and Tibetan Buddhism between prominent scientists and 
the Dalai Lama in a book called "Gentle Bridges". How does this relate 
to astrology?  Well, some of the best eastern astrologers are Buddhists! 
(and in a round about manner it sheds some light on the validity of astrology)
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Favorite Mail-Order Astrology (was Re: charts)
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:35:43 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

Richard Griffiths recommends:
|A.I.T. does beautiful color natal charts with approx. 25 pages of
|interpretation that's written for the layman.  The cost is $12.  Send them
|you name, date, time, and place of birth along with a check to:
|A.I.T.
|P.O. Box 6595
|Beaverton, OR 97007


Does anyone else have a favorite mail-order astrology service? Do any
of the regulars here provide mail-order services?

I'd be curious to know, and I don't think anyone will view it as
"unfair use" or "advertising."

bill coderre
just QRS
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: rigking@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (GAVIN KING)
Subject: StarSigns??
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:48:07 GMT

A question for all you astrologers: do you think that the predictive power 
of astrology has been harmed by the fact that, due to the precession of the 
Earth about its axis, the Sun is no longer positioned in the constellation 
which is assigned to a person when they are born, on their date of birth. (a 
bit of background for non-astrologers: in ancient times a person's star sign 
was chosen on the basis of the constellation in which the Sun was positioned 
at a person's birth. Since then, precession has altered the date at which 
the Sun moves into each constellation, but no attempt has been made by 
astrologers to alter the star signs of people born between the ancient and 
present dates.

Gav.