From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S. + some analysis
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:25:36 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

>In article <Jan.23.00.14.29.1993.7043@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

Joe (before):
>>>"Just as much" are very strong words.  We'll have to wait and see exactly
>>>what is going on.  It looks like there are some real pragmatists on the
>>>Croatian side who would take a part of Bosnia-Hercegovina if it dies
>>>(more correctly, if the world lets it die, which it is doing in many
>>>many ways).  Croatia was for a sovereign and intact B-H from the beginning
>>>and was the only effective ally (militarily; in terms of refugees taken)
>>>of Bosnia-Hercegovina.  If the world throws Bosnia to the wolves, one has
>>>to wonder if or why should Croats in parts of B-H be more 'principled'
>>>than anyone else in the world (including the UN, who has effectively helped
>>>the Serbian side by maintaining the effective heavy arms embargo).

Ana (before):
>>Joe, this is not a good logic!!! Please, Joe, be as strong against Croatian

Joe:
>What explicitly is not "good logic"?

Ana (now): The following is not "good logic": 

 "If the world throws Bosnia to the wolves, one has
to wonder if or why should Croats in parts of B-H be more 'principled'
than anyone else in the world (including the UN, who has effectively helped
the Serbian side by maintaining the effective heavy arms embargo)."

because it is the same argument that  Karadzic/Milosevic/Sheshelj
are using in the following form:

"If the world thew Yugoslavia (to the wolves), one has to wonder if
or why should Serbs in parts of Croatia/BiH/(other) be more 'principled'
than anyone else in the world (including the UN, who has effectively
helped the separatist (Slovenian/Croatian/Moslem) side by recognizing
their rights but not recognizing our rights and furthermore placing
and maintaining the economic embargo only on Serbia/Monte-Negro"

This is NOT a good logic.

Ana (before):
>>extremists as you are against the Serbian extremists! Do not change your
>>arguments and standards just because it is the "Croatian" extremists who
>>are doing to Bosnia the same what the "Serbian" extremists are! Maybe
>>even worse: like hyenas, they have waited for the "Serb" extremists to
>>kill the prey on their own, only to partake in carving up the carcass!!
>>Do not do that, Joe! Do not let go  your high standards just because

Joe:
>Ana, please, don't patronise me.

Ana:
Sorry, if you interpreted it in that way. It was not my intention
to patronize you (or anybody else). I sincerely think you have high standards.

Ana (before):
>>you feel Croatian. One can be a proud Croatian/Serbian/Bosnia&Herzegovina
>>Moslem and still be against all those who in the name of these nations
>>are committing the horrible crimes against humanity!

Joe:
>Absolutely.  I think you missed the point of my posting - it was more
>of a critical (or cold/distant) analysis of recent events in B-H.  I
>wasn't making excuses for anyone, I simply thought I'd throw my analysis
>into the forum.

>[rest deleted]

>One question for you Ana.  You write "extreme nationalism".  What is
>this, in your opinion?  Is explicit cultural identity "extreme"?

No, of course not. "Extreme nationalism" is an identity based not
really in the culture of one's own nation (ethnic group) but mostly
in the hatred toward everyone else and all that comes from "others".
Extreme nationalism can be equated with racism which maintains absolute
discrimination along biological and cultural/religious criteria: "aryan"
vs "non-aryan" kind of arguments. (look at the one of the latest postings
quoting a 1954 text which defines Serbs as "narcissist, megalomaniac and
mystifying" nation - as if there really IS any people in the world that can be
so uncritically described as having certain characteristics just because
they happened to be born within that nation. The extreme nationalism of
that argument - whether it comes as a critique from a Croatian or a Serbain
author - is the same as describing Blacks as: lazy, sexually overpotent,
less intelligent, etc. etc..)

On the other hand - nobody could be really a proud person if they didn't have
any national identity and cultural pride. I am as you have noticed in
my national identity - a Yugoslav! What does it mean today? It means
that the war which is being physically fought in Yugoslavia is reflected
in me psychologically. I am in a deep depression. I feel like somebody
is tearing my stomach out. I dream (when I let myself sleep more than
4-5 hours) of being in a village in Bosnia/Croatia and evil soldiers
or neighbors taking me out of my home, slaughtering my children in front
of me, killing everyone arround and letting me watch. And then torturing
me. These evil soldiers are OUR people, people with familiar faces,
familiar smells, familiar ways of talking, laughing, drinking, smoking.
They are not "others" - since for me ALL of our people are in a way
'My people' - and that makes these nightmares unbearable. And that is
why I see all the "extreme nationalisms" as grotesque perversions of
normal cultural identity. That is why I see claims about "national
rights" which justify any political and military actions on behalf
of "one nation" and against other "nations" as deforming real cultural
identities. A real national cultural identity of a Croat (and I have some
in my nearest family) is nothing antithetical to a real national cultural
identity of a Serb (and I also have some in my nearest family) or a Bosnian
Moslem (good friends): in fact, all these true national identities only
boost each other and make the whole culture richer. And despite the ones who
want to claim absolute differences between our peoples - cultural, language,
historical etc., there is more that connects us than what separates us!
In fact, extreme nationalists on all the sides are the true enemies not
only of each other but of their own nation!

>Regards,

>Joe Blazic

Many regards

Ana M. Shane
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10648 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1337 soc.culture.croatia:484