HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sinkwitz@ifi.unizh.ch (Rainer Sinkwitz)
Subject: Re: specifying xterm icons in open-look/openwindows
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 14:46:24 GMT


In article <1992Sep2.121604.2563@nic.csu.net>, ramberg@futon.SFSU.EDU (James Ramberg) writes:
> 
> Hello :
> 	Is there a simple way, perferably a command line option, to specify
> the xterm icon .. The generic one is driving me crazy. I

Any Athena app understands the following:

xterm*iconPixmap: your-xbm-file

The file must reside in your .../include/X11/bitmaps 
(probably /usr/include/X11/bitmaps).
If you want another path you set

xterm*bitmapFilePath: /your/other/path

-- 
oooooo    oooo  Rainer Sinkwitz, Multimedia Lab         sinkwitz@ifi.unizh.ch
 $   $   $   "  University of Zurich, Switzerland        VOICE +41-1-257-4346
 $"$$    """"$  Inst.f.Informatik, Winterthurerstr. 190   FAX +41-1-363-00-35
o$o "$o  $ooo"  CH-8057-Z\"urich
Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look,alt.toolkits.xview
From: briant@homeraisg.com (Brian Toole)
Subject: Re: XView 3: PANEL_FONT for a scrolling list
Reply-To: briant@homeraisg.com (Brian Toole)
Organization: Accura Innovative Services Inc.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 21:19:21 GMT

I have not found a way to do that without doing some
mods to the file you mentioned.  Seems that it will
take yet *another* release before (hopefully) we dont
have to mess with the list code.

I would be interested if anyone else finds an easier
(and more distributable) way to do this...


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Toole                            3452 Lake Lynda Dr. Suite 245
Accura Innovative Services, Inc.              Orlando Florida, 32817
Vice President, Technology                        FAX (407) 382-3555
briant@aisg.com                                (407) 382-3499 Ext 17 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dscott@schlitz.ittc.wec.com (Dave Scott)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look
Subject: Re: Resizing Scrolling Lists
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:15:40 GMT
Organization: Westinghouse - Simulators Division, Pittsburgh, PA
In-reply-to: harding@maxwell.hrl's message of 28 Aug 92 01:55:29 GMT


In article <23063@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> harding@maxwell.hrl (John Harding) writes:
=>Can someone please explain how to have a Scrolling List resize accordingly
=>when its underlying Control Area is resized.
 
=>I have looked at Dev3.0 and they don't seem to let you do that, even though 
=>they do this in the Dev3.0 connection manager.
 
 
=>Thanks,
 
=>John
 
Try this:

	1) Install a resize procedure on the underlying frame through
the connections manager. (mine is usually called
resize_everything_proc() or some such name)

	2) Within that resize procedure call xv_get() to retrieve the
current size (new size) of the window.  e.g. within
resize_everything_proc():

	new_height = xv_get (ip->base_frame, XV_HEIGHT);

	3) Set the height of the scrolled list to be some appropriate
number.  e.g.:

	xv_set (ip->my_scrolled_list,
		XV_HEIGHT,
		new_height - xv_get(ip->my_scrolled_list,XV_Y) - 20,
		NULL);

The scrolled list <my_scrolled_list> will be anchored at the top, you
are just setting the height to be from the anchored position to 20
pixels from the bottom (basically full height).

The changes will be seen almost immediately.

After playing with it a little, you can most certainly get exactly the
size and behavior you would like.

Hope this helps,

-dave

--
 David A. Scott - das@ils.com   -OR-   dscott@ittc.wec.com (Westinghouse)
 interLogic Software, Inc.             "The shortest distance between
 (Currently on loan to Westinghouse)      two points is under construction."
Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look
From: stuart@fawlty.towers.oz.au (Stuart Walker)
Subject: DDE-style text grabbing
Organization: Tower Technology, Sydney
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 07:20:26 GMT

We need to set up a scenario which emulates the text-cutting features of
DDE-style applications. i.e. we need to grab areas of text from a window and
use this as input to another process.

Now, ideally, I'd like to be able to use a standard shelltool or commandtool
(or even xterm), and grab information from these windows.

Any pointers would be appreciated.  Perhaps the use of Sun's CCIMM data
exchange protocol(??).

Regards

Stuart.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Internet: stuart@fawlty.towers.oz.au			  Phone: +61 2 427 2999
UUCP:     uunet!fawlty.towers.oz.au!stuart		  Fax:   +61 2 427 7072
Snail:    Tower Technology
Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look
Subject: Mainting view on canvas resize
From: cjw@dme.nt.gov.au (Chris Wharton 95328)
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:05:32 +0900
Reply-To: cjw@dme.nt.gov.au
Distribution: world
Organization: Northern Territory Department of Mines & Energy
Keywords: Xview

Can anyone tell me how to reposition the current center
of a canvas paint window (by changing SCROLLBAR_VIEW_START i think).
I am having difficulty with the relationship between the various
SCROLLBAR_* attributes, and the portion of the paint window
currently visible. When the user changes the size of the paint window
i wish to recenter it around the current center, so the currently
visible objects remain visible. Anyone ?

Also, how can I ignore the repaint events generated by the resize ? They
are generated for the old canvas size, and thus are for the wrong
areas. I would prefer to ignore them all until all resizing, repositioning
of scrollbars, etc. is completed, then just repaint the whole paint window.

This is for a graphical application under development for the 
display of cadastral data. Any comments would be appreciated.

- Chris.


Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look
From: nghoff@albert.monsanto.com (Norman G. Hoffman)
Subject: Re: Why is the File Manager in OW 3.0 so buggy?
Organization: Monsanto Company
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 01:34:54 GMT

Craig Bishop (csb@gdwb.oz.au) wrote:
: I disagree about the Calender Manager. It has a long way to go before
: becoming a useful tool. All the bits are there it just does not work 
: in large environments which try to use Sun's client/server methods to
: the max.

What would you say must be added to the Calender (sic) Manager
to make it useful (besides a spell checker)?

nghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com
Xref: sparky comp.windows.open-look:3638 comp.sys.sun.misc:3986 vmsnet.misc:760 comp.os.vms:14272
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joe Six-pack)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.open-look,comp.sys.sun.misc,vmsnet.misc,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Help: EDT on VMS from a Sun (STOP!)
Followup-To: poster
Date: 28 Aug 1992 16:17:43 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu
Summary: I've received ample help.  Thanks!

In article <bleh> plutchak@porter.geo.brown.edu (that's me) writes:
> ... about needing help with keypad definitions for EDT from a Sun...

   Thanks much to all who responded.  I've got the gist of how to do it
now, and the users are ecstatic.  Since I received no "me too's"  I
won't summarize.  If you're interested in a solution, send me Email.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
From: st1pb@rosie.uh.edu (Burris, Dean E.)
Subject: shareware desktops
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:43:00 GMT

Does anyone know of a shareware program that makes the 
Windows desktop similar to a Mac.  I am especially 
interested in file management, not folder groups etc.
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1263 news.answers:2666
From: hagen@dxcern.cern.ch (Per Hagen)
Subject: Re: X Server for MS-Windows
Keywords: X, Windows, server
Organization: CERN European Laboratory for Particle Physics
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:08:22 GMT

In article <6539@fury.BOEING.COM> julien@sdc.boeing.com (William Julien) writes:
>Xvision acts as an X11R4 server to clients running on a remote host

XVision 4.1 doc mentions R5 as well!

>(although VisionWare has a communications support program called "PC
>Connect" which will work across modem)

XVision 4.1 has NCD Xremote (modem) as an option to be bought separately.
I have not yet tried it.

>Xvision does provide for "panning", but although it is fast
>enough, I found it distracting.

Yes, but very useful for a PC with VGA only.

>Xvision supports directly the networking software by FTP called
>PC/TCP.  The Virtual X driver (VxD) by FTP software works fast, but it
>does require windows to be running in enhanced mode.

Yes and no. XVision also supports older versions of PC/TCP without the
Windows driver. You will have to load a TSR instead.

>memory) Windows 3.1 is highly recomented.

The combination XVision 4.1 and Windows 3.1 impressed me (happens once or
twice a year typically). It runs 30% faster on my crappy PC, and a lot
faster on a 486/33Mhz with some memory (8 MB).

>version 2.10 (i think) which is rumored to reduce 3c500 memory impacts by
>85%.

Get yourself a better Ethernet card as well. 3C500!

Per HAGEN
From: dflynn@aludra.usc.edu (Daniel Flynn)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
Subject: X over serial lines
Date: 26 Aug 1992 03:25:12 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Is there any way to do X over a serial dialup line without having to invoke 
SLIP or PPP? I am just starting to get a real look at X, and I would like
to make use of it from the home site. I know that my local University will
not implement a SLIP connection for me... So what's a guy suppose to do?

 
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
From: amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen)
Subject: Re: Okidata 92 and Windows
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 11:42:21 EDT


In @usenet.ins.cwru.edu> jtb5@po.CWRU.Edu (Justin T. Ballard) writes:
>I have an okidata 92 printer(rusty but trusty) and basically the
>windows driver I have for it doesn't work. How come? Does anybody
>have a fix for me. It sucks not being able to print out. Please
>e-mail me respones. Thanks!

Okidata was a really horrible printer company (along with a few others).
The u92 was available in lots and lots of completely different configurations.
Some of which don't even _look_ like the other configurations.
The biggest mfg'd run of u92's was for Apple IIc's.  There also was a
run for IBM pc's which did _NOT_ include any graphics capabilities.
I strongly suspect that you have either a Apple model u92 or a non-graphics
IBM model.  Either of these will print dos text just fine, from dos.
The Apple model tends to get very easily confused by things like form feeds,
or tabs.  The IBM non-graphics model is fairly bullet proof, in that anything
you can type to the screen, you can basically print and read.

The single model you can use with windows, is the Okidata u92, IBM pc style
with the IBM Graphics option.  As Mfg'd, this model had a little blue sticker 
on the back that said 'IBM GRAPHICS OPTION INSTALLED'.  The sticker is a
misnomer, as you can not buy or install this option yourself.  It is a factory
only option, and uses a different internal motherboard, and everything...

To test this, you should be able to load graphics.com in dos (cga on dos 3.3 or
earlier, or cga & ega on dos 4 or 5), get ahigh res graphics screen, form
your favorite program (demo software, free supplied games, ...), and do a
print screen.  The graphics screen should be color dithered and printed.

If this works, the windows driver should print just fine.  In that case....

al



--
Al. Michielsen, Crouse Hinds School of Management, Syracuse University
 InterNet: amichiel@mailbox.syr.edu  amichiel@sunrise.acs.syr.edu
 Bitnet: AMICHIEL@SUNRISE
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
Subject: About DrDos 6.0
From: Min Tom Tang <MTANG@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 1 Sep 1992 16:58:41 CDT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network


I encounter a problem installing Windows 3.1 under DrDos 6.0. While the setup
program tring to copy files into my hard disk goes through GDI.EXE. It show an
Error # 214, can't copy or create GDI.EXE during setup and should quit and
close the application that is using the program. I am sure that there is no
applications is using the DGI.EXE as I can see. So, I think it is from the
different kind of Dos I use. But I could install Windows 3.0 before. Can any
expert can help me to solve this problem or give me the references that I can
use it and please also tell me what the GDI is and for? Thanks a lot.



Bye
-Tom
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1202 comp.human-factors:1868
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
From: alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins)
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:17:19 GMT
Organization: Shape Data (Division of EDS), Cambridge UK
In-reply-to: peter@ferranti.com's message of Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:16:02 GMT

>>>>> On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:16:02 GMT, peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) said:

> What I'd like to see is a really graphic shell. UNIX shell commands would
> be icons you link together, with an attached property sheet you can use
> to build the command line:

I'd like to see this combined with a concept of more than one "stdin", and
a version of tee which feeds into multiple pipes.

Thus you could draw two different pipelines and feed the result into a
diff icon (or three into diff3). There would also be "untee", with options
for outputing one input till empty then the next, or side by side columns,
or non-deterministic line at a time.

It might be possible to do this in a Unix shell which just hides temporary files
or named pipes.
--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
   "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
 "My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
From: aazobian@athena.mit.edu (Assef A Zobian)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
Subject: Saber LAA Starter Kit software
Date: 30 Aug 92 01:17:46 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology


I have a brand new Saber LAA Starter Kit software . This software supports Nodell,
Microsoft, DEC, Bayan,IBM and any MS-NET based network. It has LAA Console/RT and the 
Saber LAA agent Toolkit. The LAA Agent Toolkit performs the following functions:
1- Application control and inventory
2- Hardware inventory
3- Event logging
4- File auditing
5- Schduler
6- Disk monitor
Its retail price is $ 1195 but I am willing to sell it for much less. If you need it,
e-mail me and we will fix the price.

 
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1276 comp.windows.x:15995 comp.human-factors:1987
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
From: alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins)
Date: 01 Sep 92 16:43:19 GMT
 <1992Aug29.232924.10887@sq.sq.com><YANDROS.92Aug30173448@j-g-ballard.MIT.EDU> <Btv1sC.79B@mtholyoke.edu>
Organization: Shape Data (Division of EDS), Cambridge UK
In-reply-to: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu's message of Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:24:12 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:24:12 GMT, jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) said:
About OpenWindows/OpenLook
> the bunch!  It takes the "3-D feel" to absolutely arbitrary extremes,
I run mine using the -2D option. At least it has the option.

> violates every rule in the book, 
The OpenLook book appears to be a carefully written as the Motif style guide.
Care to give examples?

>                                  and is a bear to boot (it's slow on a
> Sparchstation 2, a mid-20s Specmarks machine... I have no idea how
> they managed that.)
Hmm - I find it as fast as mwm. Maybe the 2d look speeds it up.
--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
   "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
 "My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1297 comp.windows.news:600 comp.windows.x:16070 comp.human-factors:2016
From: melby@dove.yk.Fujitsu.CO.JP (John B. Melby)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.news,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:40:55 GMT
	<NEERI.92Aug25180329@iis.ethz.ch>
	<1992Sep1.145034.4126@gdstech.grumman.com>
Followup-To: comp.windows.misc
Organization: Open Systems Dept. Div. 2 Sect. 1, FUJITSU LTD.
In-reply-to: david@gdstech.grumman.com's message of 1 Sep 92 23:50:34 JST

>What is "chrome"?

Chrome is a rust-resistant metal which is often used to plate iron.
Eventually, the chrome peels off, exposing the rust underneath.

The term seems to refer to extra baggage of a GUI which is "showing
its age."  In particular (based on the current discussion):

(1) Awkward features which are included in a GUI for backwards compatibility
    with an earlier look-and-feel.

(2) New features in a long-established GUI which essentially do little but
    add complexity and clutter.

-----
John B. Melby
Fujitsu Limited, Yokohama
melby%yk.fujitsu.co.jp@fai.com
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.human-factors
From: billj@b11.b11.ingr.com (Bill Jones)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 03:55:44 GMT

alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins) writes:

>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:16:02 GMT, peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) said:

>> What I'd like to see is a really graphic shell. UNIX shell commands would
>> be icons you link together, with an attached property sheet you can use
>> to build the command line:

>I'd like to see this combined with a concept of more than one "stdin", and
>a version of tee which feeds into multiple pipes.


I haven't been reading this group, but I have to jump into this thread.

I was whining about the dearth of UN*Xy tools for my Mac a couple of
months ago, and decided to implement a piping, shell-like environment.
After staring at the problem a while, I realized what I really wanted
was something that combined the better qualites of GUIs and shells.
I ended up with sketches for a system that sounds vaguely like what
you're describing. 

It'll take a couple of weeks (It's a not part of my job) to pull my
design notes into something for anybody's eyes but mine, but I'd love
to get some feedback on this project before I start implementing the
interface. Anybody interested?

Please post, or email to me at the address listed below. The node I am
posting this from won't forward my mail.

Bill Jones
Madison, Alabama

wjones@aol.com

Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
From: mperlman@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshal "Airborne" Perlman)
Subject: GDI ERROR
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 23:27:33 GMT

ARGH..I keep getting this damn GDI.EXE error:

It seems to be linked with my printer driver..when I select a different printer
driver (i.e. winfax)...it is ok..how can i get the PEOPER driver for my printer?
What is GDI ?
--
Generic Signature:
Marshal Perlman - Huntington Beach - California - USA - Earth - Milky Way
yaW ykliM - htraE - ASU - ainrofilaC - hcaeB notgnitnuH - namlreP lahsraM
                                                        :erutangiS cireneG
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1219 comp.windows.x:15766
From: klaus@netmbx.netmbx.de (Klaus Tiedemann)
Subject: Looking for Wyndfields database (Windows, shareware)
Organization: netmbx, Berlin, Germany
Distribution: comp
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:18:54 GMT
Keywords: Low cost, database, windows

Hi there,
I'm looking for the Shareware product 'Wyndfields', a low cost database running
under MS-Windows. Its a small, but very quick database, which seems to be a 
very neat program for daily applications and with a lot of features for a
Shareware program.
Did anyone hear of it, and knows, where to get it ?
Would be nice to hear from you ! Klaus.

klaus@netmbx.netmbx.de  or  klaus@netmbx.UUCP 
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.human-factors
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:25:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.090148.4206@msc.cornell.edu> maynard@groo.msc.cornell.edu (Maynard J. Handley) writes:
> thinking about how to copy the Mac. Apple is not completely satified with
> the Mac interface- it changed a bit it System 7, and doubtless it will
> change fairly substantially as Apple feels they can get away with
> abandoning slower and less powerful platforms. 

Fixing the Mac user interface does NOT require abandoning older platforms.
Pop-up menus don't require any more CPU power than pull-down ones. Iconifying
running programs doesn't take any more CPU power than hiding them in the title
bar. Proportional scrollbars don't take any more CPU power than fixed-size
ones.

The GUI changes in System 7 are, so far as I can tell, entirely chrome.

> I see Win3 as having taken essentially no time to bother with coming up
> with something better than a Mac.

Give me a break. The Windows GUI is significantly better than the Mac's. You
can even use it productively and conveniently without a mouse. the Windows
programming interface seems a pretty close copy of the Macs, with all the awful
programming and performance problems that entails, but the GUI is quite
different and MUCH better.

> Likewise for OpenLook and Motif.

OpenLook and Motif are even more different. Frankly, Motif is just more of
the traditional X "well, it works so we'll do it this way" design. Open
Look has at least *been* designed, though I could do without the fancy
details like rounded buttons and elevator cables on scrollbars. That's
just chrome, but what's *under* the chrome is nice.

All of these are desktops, but that doesn't mean they're Mac clones. Remember:
the Mac wasn't the first desktop. Not even the first one from Apple.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
$ EDIT/TECO LOVE                                              'U` 
%TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war?                        Have you hugged your wolf today?
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.      Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012       +1 713 274 5180
From: un040337@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
Subject: HELP
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:49:09 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

Hi,
   I need some help with Win3.1! Every now and then an application will
   quit on me and windows reports:
                       Illegal Instruction Error
                       in module GDI.EXE
                       Address 0001:0624
   I have no idea what could cause it. I checked my system for bad
   memmory and hardware conflict and came up empty.  Win3.1 was installed
   from floppies onto my 486-33 with 8MB of memory. I am using HIMEM.SYS
   EMM386.EXE and SMARTDRIVE.EXE 
   If anybody out there knows anything I would appreciate the help!

                                      Thanks !

                                      Andy
From: chris@visionware.co.uk (Chris Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc
Subject: Re: X Server for MS-Windows
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:16:49 GMT
Organization: VisionWare Ltd., Leeds, UK
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

William Julien (julien@sdc.boeing.com) wrote:
> I am not connected with VisionWare, WRQ or FTP -- I'm just a happy customer.
> For imformation contact:
> Chris at VisionWare...

Arrgghhh!  Please do not contact me (but if you do, I'll just pass it
on anyway).  Instead you should email info@visionware.co.uk (a.k.a.
vware@visionware.co.uk).  Or you can use more conventional methods
(phone, fax, post).

> contact Unipress Software on +1 201-985-8000 or Graphic Software
> Systems [...]

GSS no longer sell our product.  Unipress Software do still sell our
product.  VisionWare also now have a US office (contact
info@visionware.co.uk for details), tel. +1 415-325-2113 and fax.
+1 415-325-8710.  Technical support queries for a purchased product
can be directed to support@visionware.co.uk or the telephone/fax
numbers in the package.

Ta,
Chris
--
            VISIONWARE LTD, 57 Cardigan Lane, LEEDS LS4 2LE, England
  Tel +44 532 788858 x238.  Fax +44 532 304676.  Email chris@visionware.co.uk
---------- "VisionWare:   The home of DOS/SQL/UNIX/X/VMS integration" ---------
Xref: sparky comp.windows.misc:1274 comp.human-factors:1985