From: greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield)
Subject: Re: Computer Science Programs
Organization: Syracuse University, CIS Dept.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 17:07:16 EDT

In article <Bt4x5K.9vI@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney) writes:
>
>At the time, I was working in the physics department.  There, I worked with
>both graphics and image processing.  I was working with such things as 
>ray-tracing and Fourier transforms when I took that class.  Luckily, I was
>self-motivated.
>
>Anyway, there is an extreme the other way.  The "Scheme only" schools won't
>get my praise, either.  I think that learning the theoretical computer
>science is nice, but it won't get you a job.  IU seems to have a pretty
>good balance.  You learn that stuff, but in your senior year, you take an
>intensive study in a "real-world" type thing, such as database application,
>or hardware application.  Scheme is the first language that you learn now.
>That contrasts with the first school I went to (an engineering school) where
>Fortran was the first language.

What are the "Scheme only" schools??


>Sadly, alot of people are trying to push their opinions off on others in
>this area.

???????


>If I pay a school to educate me in the area of Computer Science,
>I expect to be able to get a job when I get out.  If I wanted to become a
>professor later, I might have more appreciation of theory, but few people
>want to take that direction.
>
>Depending on what you plan to do in the real-world, C is necessary.  Fortran
>is still used at alot of lab-type places.  COBOL is, unfortunately, still used
>extensively in the business world.  The push to C is on, though.  Also, with
>database work, 4GL's are coming up that are easy to learn in a week, but offer
>great flexibility, and portability.  And, of course, the military uses ADA.
>
>Dead languages include Pascal and friends.  Lisp and Scheme aren't used much
>in the real world.  And, wierd languages such as RPG, PL/I, and BLISS are
>pretty much unknown nowadays.
>
>My advice is to avoid extreme universities, unless you want to teach, in
>which case you should find something like MIT (which Jason talks about).
>In general, if you want a job, go for a more practical approach, but not too
>practical :)

Is it your suggestion that a typical student coming out with a CS bachelor's
should be so inept in knowledge that learning to code in a new language
(particular in a language whose style is similar to one with which they
are already familiar--e.g., going from one procedural language to another
procedural language) is a major undertaking?

I don't have a particular problem with offering some electives for students
who want to immerse themselves in a project in a particular language in order
to gain some experience, but what you are suggesting is desirable seems to
go a bit further than that.

A particular language should *never* be the central focus of a computer
science program.  Languages should be chosen as convenient tools for the
purpose of teaching fundamental concepts.  A student who understands the
fundamental principles of computer science and programming should have little
trouble teaching himself (or herself) how to express those concepts in a
particular coding language.

(And this is no different for computer science than any other academic
discipline.  One might as well be suggesting that a mathematician *really*
needs to understand a particular mathematical notation, and only needs a
little understanding of the underlying mathematics.)

Those who hold learning a particular language as their prime interest should
seek a vocational program (in C hacking, perhaps), not a computer science
program.


I guess it's time to put on my asbestos suit...


-- 
J. S. Greenfield                                         greeny@top.cis.syr.edu
(I like to put 'greeny' here, 
but my d*mn system wants a 
*real* name!)                        "What's the difference between an orange?"