From: kwinkler@pbs.org (The Axe Man)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career), or Great Clubhouse Influences
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:28:17 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

In article <1992Apr12.092123.13711@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca>, 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
> In <1992Apr12.033648.7561@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
> 
>>In article <1992Apr11.234752.671@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
>>>In <204766@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
> 
>>For *THAT* matter, what are you talking about?  The Blue Jays were BAD
>>when they had Alfredo Griffin.  In fact, very bad.  They got better when
>>they replaced him with Tony Fernandez.  The As won 3 straight pennants
> 
> Blew Jays record in the Griffin years:
> 
> 79 - 53-109
> 80 - 67-95
> 81 - 37-69
> 82 - 78-84
> 83 - 89-73
> 84 - 89-73
> 
> No they "get better" with griffin in the lineup - when fernandez came
> they were already good...

But why didn't they get *worse* instead of better if Griffin was such 
a huge factor?  They got better with him, they got better without him.
Maybe it was the OTHER twenty-four guys that were making them better. 
Nah, couldn't be...
 
>>Good, then make him a coach. He can still have that great positive 
>>influence on the team on the bench and in the clubhouse, and he won't
>>be killing the team at the plate.
> 
> well he is sitting on TO's bench this year...If TO wins will you
> concede that he might be a factor - just might mind you - 'cause there
> is no sure way to measure it :-)

Might?  Sure, he might.  The good clean Toronto air might be a factor
also.  But I'm silly.  I find explanations like outstanding starting
pitching, the best bullpen in the league, great offense and excellent
defense to be more plausible explanations.

Are you saying that in some way Griffin is making Key, Guzman, and Henke
pitch well?  Or Winfield, Carter, and Alomar hit?  Funny, they did pretty
well when he wasn't there.  

Now a question for you.  If the Jays wise up and get rid of Griffin, and
they win the East *anyway*, will you wise up and admit that Griffin is
worth as much to a baseball team as a '66 Corvette is to an iguana?

>>Hell, I can name a team of 25 "really nice guys" that would lose to the
>>1991 Indians every time they played.  Start with Rene Gonzales and work
>>from there.  On the other hand, give me a team full of disruptive players 
>>like Tartabull, Mitchell, Belle, Strawberry, and Henderson, and they'd wipe 
>>the floor with any team around.
> 
> its the mix, the chemistry of players working together, some are nice
> guys, some are jerks (just like this board...) the point is that the
> chemistry is beyond analysis...

So why talk about it?  Even if you are right in saying that we can't
disprove it.  You certainly can't *prove* it.  I could say that the
groundskeeper is the single most important reason for the Jays winning
the East.  They had him last year, and they will have him this year, and
if they win this year then obviously I'm right, right?  Why don't we
talk about tangible things that we have some common basis for, rather than
the value of Alfredo Griffen, which is an oxymoronic phrase if ever there
was one.
 
>>I know there are players out there that are a lot of fun to watch, (there
>>are several of them on the Orioles, like Billy "Am I *really* related to 
>>Cal?" Ripken) but why you think this means they belong in the majors is 
>>beyond me.
> 
> if billy hangs in as long as alfredo then you will have to concede that
> he must be doing something right...

No, I could just continue to say Roland Hemond couldn't find his asshole
with a funnel.  Unless you consider being related to the 3rd base coach
and the MVP shortstop to be "doing something right..."

(Actually, I have some hope that Billy may turn into something resembling
a baseball player this year.  I still would rather have Delino DeShields, 
or have picked up the Governor, Jerry Browne.)
 
>>>Making him the butt of your little statistical jokes shows a complete
>>>lack of respect for a man who commands a lot more respect from his peers
>>>than Tony Fernandez.  Ask the players if he made a "measurable" contribution.
>> 
>>Well, pardon me for asking, but how the f**k would YOU know which of
> 
> If you go to the odd game you get to see little things like high fives
> at the plate and you get to hear the players relating to each other.  Doesn't
> show up in box scores.  There are players in all team sports that are "glue"
> and they usually aren't the best players on the team.  but they are certainly
> among the most important...

Look, I'm the number one fan of Rick Dempsey.  In fact, Randy Milligan said
that yesterday's win over Boston was largely due to Dempsey being on the
bench cheering.  I can accept that.  But come on.  *I* could sit on a bench 
and have a great attitude and cheer and high five.  But with a bat in my 
hand, I'm useless.  Make Alfredo a coach if he's that great.  But you have
absolutely no basis for any kind of case that Alfredo Griffen should be
a player on a major league baseball team.  None.  Because the job of a 
player is to hit, field, and run.  Alfredo sucks at all of those, or are
you going to dispute that?

Let's cut to the chase.  Please answer these questions.  Is Alfredo Griffen
a good hitter, fielder, or base-runner?  If not, why should he be on a team
as a player, rather than a coach?


						----Ken Winkler
						    (kwinkler@pbs.org)

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