From: bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Marvel's untouchable corpses (was re: STARLIN SELLOUT?)
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:20:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <Bu1DA2.I0G@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.142030.24927@njitgw.njit.edu> bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler) writes:
>>This might have been my mistake.  I remember someone mentioning Bucky
>>in this thread, and probably thought that's how it originated.  I might
>>have been mistaken.
>
>I think you were, in fact, correct.  I came in late on the thread myself.

*Whew!*  I KNEW he was mentioned somewhere before in this thread.

>>And, Bucky has had many more appearances that Uncle Ben.  Most of them
>>were in the pre-Marvel days, though, in the original Captain America 
>>comics of the '40's.  The rest of his appearances were essentially
>>flashbacks (when you get down to it, that's what the entire Invaders
>>series was).
>
>I suppose if you count the pre-Marvel days, Bucky had a lot of appearances.
>But as it stands, he's actually appeared less than Uncle Ben, who appeared
>once in the first appearance of Spider-Man.  All poor Buck has had are
>flashback sequences. :(  (This is assuming that, as you say, the Invaders
>series counts as flashbacks.)

I suppose, though, for his pre-Marvel appearances, Bucky should be
considered a major character.  Let's look at it this way:  if Avengers #4
had the revival of Bucky, and it was revealed that Captain America had
died, would anyone question whether or not Cap was a major character?
True, Bucky was only a sidekick, not the star of his own series (although
Robin is proving you can be both, but that's a COMPLETELY different story),
but he appeared almost as much as Cap.

Oh, and Bucky did make an appearance that wasn't really a flashback.  In
an old issue of the Avengers (around the 50's or so, I think), they
used Doc Doom's time travel platform to witness Cap entering suspended
animation/Bucky's death.  Of course, since it did require time travel,
it may not be counted (and this is only an aside anyway, I'm not trying
to prove anything with it).

>>Norman Osborne was probably a mistake on my part, as half the time I think
>>of him as Norman, and the other half as the Green Goblin.  The Green Goblin
>>was a major character, but I don't think Norman was.  Since Norman was the
>>Green Goblin, I guess he should be counted as a major character.
>
>It's a matter of semantics.  The line between Norman and the Goblin was pretty
>fuzzy anyway, so you could consider either one an extension of the other.

Right.  Norman = Green Goblin.  However, Harry != Green Goblin.  I guess
that's the important difference in saying that Harry is not another Norman,
since Harry could be cured (even temporarily), and stop being GG, while
the original GG was actually Norman himself.  Definitely my mistake in
saying they were making Harry another Norman.

>>Gwen and Captain Stacy, as well as the Ancient One, made all their
>>appearances before I really got into comics, and were mostly supporting
>>cast members.  Since I never saw many issues with them, I find it
>>difficult to consider them major.  That's my problem.  Technically, I
>>suppose they are major characters, although one might question, say,
>>Gwen's importance now that Peter's married to Mary Jane (again, this
>>could be my ignorance showing).
>
>Considering Gwen and her memory were a major stumbling block to Peter marrying
>MJ, it's fairly important.  I don't think they've played up enough the fact 
>that MJ constantly has to compete with someone who's not even alive for Pete's
>affections.  But that's entirely IMO.  The reason you haven't seen much of 
>these characters is probably because (drum roll).....they're DEAD!:)  How can a
>dead person continue to make appearances?  This would require a major
>suspension of disbelief, because dead people start *rotting* after awhile...:)
>The point is, they're not necessarily germane to today's storylines, but
>they were, and probably would _still_ be if they were still alive.

It's the very fact that they haven't played up MJ competing with Gwen's
memory that precluded me from saying she was a major character (obviously,
she was before, but is she now?  Probably not).  

And wasn't this thread started because of the overabundance of dead 
characters continuing to make appearances at Marvel?  They sure don't
look like they've rotted to me (although I haven't seen Doom's face yet,
so I can't say for sure on that one...)     :)    :)    :)

>Again, you hit the nail on the head.  Any definition of "major" and "minor"
>is going to be pretty arbitrary, since different people have different 
>opinions about what characters were and still are important.  I've come to
>the conclusion that my own definition of "major" is someone whose impact on
>a story or character's history lasts more than a hundred issues, or roughly
>thereabouts.  Obviously, this includes characters like Bucky, and Uncle Ben,
>and even the Ancient One, since they have had major impacts on the lives of
>the characters they're associated with.  Cap _still_ mourns Bucky, Spidey
>has the occasional "reminiscing about Unca Ben" story, and the Ancient One
>is referred to by Doc Strange even today.  Major villains, like most of 
>Spidey's rogues gallery, Doc Doom, Kang, Ultron, and Magneto also fit in
>this category.  Note that by impact lasting over a hundred issues, I mean
>that the character has appeared consistently and affected the story
>in some manner multiple times in a span of comics which covers more than
>roughly 100 issues, or maybe ten years, whichever is longer. This rules out
>characters like the Fabulous Frog-Man, who has appeared once or twice in the
>last five years or so and hasn't really done much to add to the overall
>storyline the times he has appeared, but Doc Doom definitely qualifies.  Yes,
>it's abstract, and it's vague, but I like it, and most of the characters I 
>consider "major" fit into this mold.  Newer characters, i.e. those who haven't
>appeared for more than ten years or so, are included as long as they have 
>appeared fairly frequently and advanced the story in some manner (Venom, for
>instance, is a pretty "major" villain where I'm concerned).
>
>There are bound to be exceptions to this, so I'll have to come up with a
>better rule later.  If anybody has another definition, please, speak out by
>all means.  I'd love to hear it.

Are characters who were significant in the past, yet seem to make only
bit appearances today, considered major or minor?  In Sub-Mariner, for
example, the original Human Torch and Iron Fist have been relegated to
supporting cast, even though they were major in the past (you know,
if the Human Torch had stayed dead, I wouldn't even question whether
or not he was major.  Strange).  So, does being major in the past
make a character forever major?  (Which, I suppose, brings us back
to whether or not Gwen, et. al., are major characters, since they
haven't had much impact on the Marvel Universe in quite some time).
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