From: grady@public.BTR.COM (Grady Ward  grady@btr.com)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:08:47 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

In article <14APR199221402164@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu> 7741cs17@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (SILICON VULTURE) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.211611.11103@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes...
>
>>In article <1992Apr10.163135.14763@dante.uucp> 
>>mason@dante.uucp (Mason Jones) writes:
>
>>>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>
>MZ:
>>>>In fact, what I'm saying is that someone whose
>>>>desires are what he personally considers to be immoral should sublimate
>>>>those desires.
>
>SV:
>My roommate is a promiscuous homosexual.  He does not feel that these
>acts are immoral.  Therefore, he doesn't have to sublimate his desires.
>Right?
>
>MJ:
>>>And now you specify that the person's own morals are those which count,
>>>which I can naturally agree with.  However, given desires that conflict
>>>with one's morals, there are actually two choices open: adjusting those
>>>morals, or attempting to sublimate the desires.  Which choice is the
>>>best one is going to depend greatly on the individual and the circumstances.
>
>MZ:
>>The first choice has a name: opportunism.
>
>SV:
>But my roommate never had morals that conflicted with his current desires.
>He is an atheist with agnostic tendencies, so he didn't automatically adopt
>someone else's moral standards.
>
>MZ:
>>>>Of course, if I am right in my moral speculations, their
>>>>moral judgment should also coincide with my own; however this obligation is
>>>>wholly different in nature, and in any case, altogether independent from
>>>>the former.
>
>SV:
>Of course your moral speculations are wrong.  Do you care to debate that
>subject with me?  If you do, start the debate by stating your moral
>judgment.  I'm not interrested in hearing your beliefs unless you follow
>them yourself.
>
>MJ:
>>>I'm unsure what you're trying to say with regard to your moral speculations
>>>and why you should expect anyone's moral judgment to coincide with yours.
>
>MZ:
>>Because I expect my judgment to be rational.
>
>SV:
>After reading your posts for a few months, my expectations are somewhat
>lower.  I'm hoping for them to be coherrent.
>
>MJ:
>>>Morals are an inherently personal thing, which should be expected to
>>>vary from person to person.  Expecting someone's morals to be the same
>>>as your own seems to be no more than a hope for a homogenous society.
>>>And a boring one. ;-)
>
>MZ:
>>You seem to be equating personal morals with personal conduct.
>
>SV:
>You previously stated that a person's conduct should reflect their morals.
>Mason's point was quite relevant.
>
>  |  Kevin T. Renwick           |  "Stress is when your brain overrides  |
>  |  Silicon Vulture            |   your body's desire to beat the shit  |
>  |  7741cs17@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu  |   out of an asshole who deserves it."  |

an churches, most of which embraced the new order with little
 problem?

A largely false statement -- but I've learned to expect those from
you.  See end of posting.

Roger is absolutely right.  See Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the
European Jews" on the behavior of German Christian leaders, and the 1990
NYRB article by Conor Cruise O'Brien concerning the post-1939 _entente
cordiale_ between National Socialism and Vatican, which gave German
Catholics an excuse to look the other way.  As a matter of historical fact,
only one German pastor spoke out ex cathedra against the persecution of the
Jews.  See Hilberg, index under "Lichtenberg".
 Or do you not wish to confront the reinvention of Christianity (something
 that happens all the time, btw) as something "German"?

Reinvention? Hardly.   It was repudiated.

About as much as it was repudiated under Napoleon.

 Now, tell me what special authority Martin Bormann had within Nazi
ideological circles to make that blanket statement, and tell me what
contect* he was saying it in, and you may begin to have a flicker of an
 inkling of a case.

Oh, and tell me what words he actually used.  I doubt he spoke them in
 English, and the word that translates to "Christianity" also translates
to "The Christian World" or "Christendom."

CEC
Translation always involves context. Tell me, does the statement,
"National Socialism and the Christian World is irreconcilable,"
sound a little bizarre, coming from a leading Nazi in 1941?

Of course, Bormann neither set nor expressed the Reich's religious policy.


 So, unless you really CAN'T think of a better refutation than a vague,
 out-of-context quote from someone whose authority in these matters was
 less than complete, and whose credibility is zero to begin with, how
 about ponying up?

 Roger

 Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   
Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...         doesn't   
 Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    
                                                             so     
 Mikhail Zeleny                                                     
 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707           
 Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139       (617) 661-8151        
 email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET          
 
        The Religion of Adolf Hitler & Nazi Germany
>`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
>: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
>: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...         doesn't   :
>: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
>:                                                             so     :
>: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
>: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707           :
>: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139       (617) 661-8151        :
>: email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET            :
>:                                                                    :
>'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
an churches, most of which embraced the new order with little
 problem?

A largely false statement -- but I've learned to expect those from
you.  See end of posting.

Roger is absolutely right.  See Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the
European Jews" on the behavior of German Christian leaders, and the 1990
NYRB article by Conor Cruise O'Brien concerning the post-1939 _entente
cordiale_ between National Socialism and Vatican, which gave German
Catholics an excuse to look the other way.  As a matter of historical fact,
only one German pastor spoke out ex cathedra against the persecution of the
Jews.  See Hilberg, index under "Lichtenberg".
 Or do you not wish to confront the reinvention of Christianity (something
 that happens all the time, btw) as something "German"?

Reinvention? Hardly.   It was repudiated.

About as much as it was repudiated under Napoleon.

 Now, tell me what special authority Martin Bormann had within Nazi
ideological circles to make that blanket statement, and tell me what
contect* he was saying it in, and you may begin to have a flicker of an
 inkling of a case.

Oh, and tell me what words he actually used.  I doubt he spoke them in
 English, and the word that translates to "Christianity" also translates
to "The Christian World" or "Christendom."

CEC
Translation always involves context. Tell me, does the statement,
"National Socialism and the Christian World is irreconcilable,"
sound a little bizarre, coming from a leading Nazi in 1941?

Of course, Bormann neither set nor expressed the Reich's religious policy.


 So, unless you really CAN'T think of a better refutation than a vague,
 out-of-context quote from someone whose authority in these matters was
 less than complete, and whose credibility is zero to begin with, how
 about ponying up?

 Roger

 Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   
Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...         doesn't   
 Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    
                                                             so     
 Mikhail Zeleny                                                     
 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707           
 Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139       (617) 661-8151        
 email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET          
 
        The Religion of Adolf Hitler & Nazi Germany

an churches, most of which embraced the new order with little
 problem?

A largely false statement -- but I've learned to expect those from
you.  See end of posting.

Roger is absolutely right.  See Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of the
European Jews" on the behavior of German Christian leaders, and the 1990
NYRB article by Conor Cruise O'Brien concerning the post-1939 _entente
cordiale_ between National Socialism and Vatican, which gave German
Catholics an excuse to look the other way.  As a matter of historical fact,
only one German pastor spoke out ex cathedra against the persecution of the
Jews.  See Hilberg, index under "Lichtenberg".
 Or do you not wish to confront the reinvention of Christianity (something
 that happens all the time, btw) as something "German"?

Reinvention? Hardly.   It was repudiated.

About as much as it was repudiated under Napoleon.

 Now, tell me what special authority Martin Bormann had within Nazi
ideological circles to make that blanket statement, and tell me what
contect* he was saying it in, and you may begin to have a flicker of an
 inkling of a case.

Oh, and tell me what words he actually used.  I doubt he spoke them in
 English, and the word that translates to "Christianity" also translates
to "The Christian World" or "Christendom."

CEC
Translation always involves context. Tell me, does the statement,
"National Socialism and the Christian World is irreconcilable,"
sound a little bizarre, coming from a leading Nazi in 1941?

Of course, Bormann neither set nor expressed the Reich's religious policy.


 So, unless you really CAN'T think of a better refutation than a vague,
 out-of-context quote from someone whose authority in these matters was
 less than complete, and whose credibility is zero to begin with, how
 about ponying up?

 Roger

 Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   
Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...         doesn't   
 Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    
                                                             so     
 Mikhail Zeleny                                                     
 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707           
 Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139       (617) 661-8151        
 email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET          
 
        The Religion of Adolf Hitler & Nazi Germany



-- 
Grady Ward  grady@btr.com  KD6ETH @ K6LY.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA  Moby Lexicons