HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Tired and Impatient (was Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.)
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:54:15 GMT
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct14.183409.22436@tc.cornell.edu>, shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu 

|> Geeze, if I'd known we were going to throw a Festival of
|> Ignorance, I'd have sent out announcements and
|> invitations.  Selecting the winner of the Phool IGM Ronzone
|> "Education is Evil" Award is going to be difficult.  We do
|> have some strong contenders.
|
My, how clever you are today Melinda.  Do you have anything to say at all
or are you just venting spleen at someone who decided to voice an opinion
against the Cabal?

You impress me so little it boggles the mind.  You stoop to insults which
lack wit and cleverness without provacation.  Having dined with Phil
Ronzone, I have found that though we have differing opinions on almost
every topic, we do not have to stoop to insults.  Why can't you do
the same?



FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: de-muffining
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:00:20 GMT

lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) wrote: 
->In article <1992Oct16.134829.24015@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com  
->(ryerson.schwark) writes:
->
->} In article <1992Oct16.041059.11386@sol.UVic.CA> dcunning@engr.UVic.CA writes:
->} >- I'm 18 years old, still a virgin and not terribly sure about myself.
->} 
->} The only people who are very sure of themselves at this age are the ones
->} who are wrong.
->
->Ry, I don't think that is necessarily so ... How could you know all the details  
->of every 18 year old?  I was VERY sure of a lot of things (albeit still  
->struggling with being Gay).

you've demonstrated how wrong you are, too, these past few days.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Birthday Greetings (was Re: Ah, Fashion.)
Keywords: expensive jewelry
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:25:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Oct8.052505.26438
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Oct8.042755.27873@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>>> Today we learned that Greg Parkinson and Arne Adolphson
>>> graduated high school the same year that I did. I believe Melinda
>>> did, too, and Mr. Cr*mer as well.  
>>Yes, I knew about ******.  I think Jack Hamilton graduated 
>>the year before us.  
>Older but wiser?  Age before beauty? 

If my arithmetic and memory is right, you're all talking about '74.
That would make Jack and me class of '73, meaning (in the case of
Cr*m*r only):

Pearls before swine.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: max@queernet.org (Max J. Rochlin)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Blockbuster Video rumors
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:30:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: queernet.Bw0zMD.2EC
Organization: QueerNet

In article <BvuzKv.2Kp@agora.rain.com> bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
>
>>And, as Henry Mensch pointed out, there are other reasons not to shop at
>>BlockBuster. 
>
>No doubt.  I tend to prefer pop-n-pop/mom-n-mom video stores,but there
>ain't no such animal in PDX other than adult video places. 

I try to use smaller stores as well.  Unfortunately, BB is the only
place in town that carries education and series LaserDiscs.  If anyone
knows where I can rent ST:TNG episodes, NOVA, and the like in SF
I'd be happy to switch.

 
-- 
|  max@queernet.org  |   Max J. Rochlin   |
+-----------------------------------------+
|         Denial springs eternal          |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:52:21 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <1992Oct13.134047.27263@spdcc.com>, rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob
Donahue) wrote:
 
> 	The original icons weren't portraits per se, at least not
> insofar as that the rendering of the person was in anyway accruate.
> This is obvious in art if one looks at portraits of Christ
> or the Madonna (the genuine one, not the ex-hooker cum pop-star)
> both over time and with respect to the culture/geography/anthropology/
> sociology of the artist or the person who commissioned the artwork.
> Same is true of most of the original icons.

One has to look at the art 'over time' to realize that icons were
not renderings of the original people?  I certainly hope not.

[etc, etc]

None too surprising, it would seem that Donohue finds it very difficult
to differentiate between an 'icon' and an important historical figure.
Do many of the figures in Adolphson's list symbolize something more
than themselves?  Is Jessie James a better symbol of the Old West
than the generic cowboy?  Is Keats a symbol of Romantic Poetry, or
is he 'just' one of the Romantic Poets?  What this thread has become
is a forum for tired intellectuals to name drop.  "I can name more
historical figures than you can, neener neener neener..."  But
such figures must be, essentially, *more* than what they were.
Pickford was a symbol of the sweet little miss to bajillions of people.
And of course, Dolphie has already covered what Dietrich symbolized.
She was more than a talented actress.  Meryl Streep is a better actress
than Dietrich.  Meryl Streep is not an icon.  Meryl Streep *will* be
a 'historical' figure into the next century.  She will *not* be an
icon.  Madonna (and Michael Jackson) symbolize the excessive and 
bizarre better than any other media figure.  There may be people
more bizare, but none as well known.  These two will be both
'historical' figures *and* icons for some time to come.  But symbols
change, and unlike Dolphie, I feel an icon is by definition *not*
timeless - whereas a historical figure may well be.

Melmothra, ACC 

Matthew Melmon
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Stealth African Marauding soc.motss
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:04:32 GMT


In article <1992Oct13.130824.26421@wam.umd.edu>, lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) writes:
|> In article <1bc9doINNrp4@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM  
|> (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer) writes:
|> } HOWEVER, I am not evil by definition and CERTAINLY NOT by the skin color I
|> } happened to have been born with.  I take great offense to the general nature
|> } of his post and the condescending tone about the perceived inability of white
|> } people to care about other peoples and the believed inability of white people
|> } to grow to anything beyond tolerance.
|> 
|> Face the real problem.  Your people enforced slavery 200 years ago and the  
|> effects of that deed are STILL killing Black people in this country.  What is  
|> being done about it?  What are YOU doing about it?  Are you merely enjoy the  
|> comfort of being White?  How the HELL can you shout down something from your  
|> ivory tower and expect me to take it as some form of edict!  If White people on  
|> the whole "cared" so much, would we STILL be having this problem?

The only way I can relate to what you are saying is
by thinking about my feelings towards straight people,
about people who intentionally remain clueless about
what it's like to gay in this society.  People who
think that everyone has the privileges and opportunities
and comfort that are denied to people who are different.

What I know from that comparison is that there is nothing
I can say to assuage your anger without devaluing what 
you're feeling.  The only thing I can suggest is that
what's worked for me in the past is to channel the
energy that comes from these feelings into something
productive.  I can't change how I've been treated or
what's happened to me.  What I can do is try to learn
how to live my life less affected by external events
and to work to make the world different for the people
like me who will hopefully benefit from my actions.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: asente@adobe.com (A Usenet Pal)
Subject: Re: Dietrich, Madonna, etc.
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:41:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.231933.7682@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>I do not dispute Arne's claim that Dietrich is important to, say,
>fashion magazines. However, I claim that this alone does not make her
>an icon. For me, if Dietrich is an "icon" it means that people have to
>know about *Marlene Dietrich* herself. As Arne says, it's "several
>removes". When the memory of Dietrich-the-person fades away, she will
>no longer be an "icon" (under my definition of the term), but will
>then become one part of history.

I agree.  I find quite amusing the claim that cultural icons must be
timeless.  If this is true, who are the cultural icons from the 1800's?
Cultural icons are part of the current culture, and it's just that the
invention of movies has enabled some of the cultural icons of 60 years
ago to remain recognized today.  Yesterday's cultural icons are part of
today's history.

Some people I consider to be cultural icons:
  	Marilyn Monroe
	Groucho Marx
	James Dean
	Arnold Schwartznegger
	Bette Davis
	John Belushi
	Humphrey Bogart
	Bill Cosby
	John Wayne
	Judy Garland
	Ronald Reagan
	Richard Nixon
	Tammy Faye Bakker
	Mick Jagger
	John Lennon
	Elvis Presley
	Madonna
	Frank Sinatra
	Michael Jackson
	The Beach Boys
	Ella Fitzgerald

The thing I think these all have in common is that they are either living or
died recently enough that many people can still remember them.  They all have
something, well, unique, about them, something that you could point to and
say, "Yes, THAT is so and so," even if you couldn't describe what it is.

I think it's much easier for dead people to be cultural icons than live
people.  While you're alive you're too complex to be easily distilled into an
icon.

      -paul asente
	   asente@adobe.com   ...decwrl!adobe!asente   moo-bear@cs.stanford.edu

At breakfast it was learned that Elsie had expired during the night, and
gloom descended on everybody.
From: scotts@CS.CMU.EDU (Scott Safier)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: The Quilt
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:58:30 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: scotts@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU

I ventured to DC for the weekend to see the Quilt.  I thought I would
post some remarks to the net.

First:
In article <16028@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes:

   It wasn't just Tipper Gore who stood up on the platform and read names of
   people memorialized in the Quilt--she was joined by her husband, vice-
   presidential candidate Al Gore.

   We know who we're voting for on November 3rd, don't we?

Interestingly, I so *NO ONE* at the quilt wearing any Bush/Quayle
buttons/t-shirts/etc...  I saw hundreds of Clinton/Gore buttons and
t-shirts, though.

One of the National Campaign Directors for Clinton also read names.
During the reading of one name, the director stopped and said, "And a
deep personal friend of mine and Governor and Mrs Clinton ... <name>."
If the debates had not been on the same day as the Quilt, I wonder if
Gov. Clinton would have shown up?

Of course the quilt was moving.  When the Quilt opened, there were
over 20,000 panels.  Over 2000 new panels were turned in on Saturday,
and more were being turned in on Sunday.

The candle light vigil was also very moving.  As the crowd marched
past the White House, they were greeted with White House Security
dressed in riot gear.  The crowd "Shame!"'ed the White House, and
chanted "Three More Weeks" as they marched past.

After the March, a rally took place at the Lincoln Memorial.  Liza
Minelli, Joel Gray, Patti Austin, Cleve Jones and others spoke.  The
organizers estimated that 250,000 people marched in the candlelight
vigil.  Park Police (who are known for their inability to count),
estimated the crowd at 90,000.  In any case, the marchers were densely
packed as they marched, and took over an hour to enter the mall.  The
mall was filled from the Lincoln Memorial to the edge of the Quilt
(which was near the Washington Monument).

On Sunday, ACT UP NY organized a funeral march to the White House
where the ashes of people that have died from AIDS were to be spread
on the White House lawn.  I only saw the March as they walked down the
Mall.  I would estimate that about 5000 people marched with ACT UP.  I
don't know if they were successful in spreading the ashes on the lawn,
but I did see the event on CNN.

Fountains around the mall were red after people poured red-dye into
them.

Scott Safier                                   corwin+@cmu.edu
Robotics Institute, Carnegie Mellon University
        
member, T.S.A.K.C.  B0/1 f+ w- g k+ s- m(+) e++

"Indeed, to quarantine a person with AIDS or the AIDS virus does
entail a loss, in the short term, of human freedom.  Agreed.  But the
idea of human freedom isn't now, and never has been, absolute.
Besides, in the long run, as I have noted, all people with AIDS die."
             John Lofton, columnist The Washington Times, March 31, 1989
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Stealth African Marauding soc.motss
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 06:24:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.013353.26811@nevada.edu> balistik@big-brother.nevada.edu (Shawn Hicks) writes:
>
>I do have one rather simple question:  how can you tell who is, and
>who is not, a person of color, when all you can see are the electrons
>on your screen?  

I imagine about as often as most of us can tell when a heterosexual posts
to soc.motss, which is to say, most of the time.


Ry
ry@usl.com
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: CABAL stuff
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:06:34 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

In article <67337@cup.portal.com> Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank - Swilling) writes:
>
>For those of you who actually have working taste buds, there *are* two
>really fine restaurants on 24th Street in the near vicinity of (shudder)
>Little Italy.

La Traviata.  Somewhere in the vicinity of 24th and Valencia, if my
fuzzy memory serves.

--John
-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||   -- My Bloody Valentine
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: "Advocate" editor interviewed on CNN
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 03:04:15 GMT


In article <mattm-151092151813@mcmelmon.apple.com>
mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

>I stumbled into this one in a fit of boredom, and it struck
>me as being 'just too much.' 

I'm sorry, Matthew.  It was a trick.  I wondered how far one
would have to go to be *sure* of getting your attention,
that's all.

But Jeff Dahmer was a not-bad-looking man of as you say,
great vileness.  His being in prison instead of a hospital
is not my idea of justice.  I very much doubt that Dan
Quayle is insane, and I would say his potential for murder
is low.  But the field of action in which Dahmer operated
was small.  Quayle's is global.  I don't think, in view of
the scope of his actions, he can be thought of as anything
less than vile.  The one vileness does not *directly*
compare to the other, but it would not in my opinion be a
valid argument in defense of Quayle to say: oh well, he's
not as bad as Dahmer.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: "paul bobbitt" <paul.bobbitt@canrem.com>
Subject: first no on 9 tv ad i
Reply-To: "paul bobbitt" <paul.bobbitt@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 7 Oct 92 11:44:59 EST

"Vote No on 9. It's not just dumb, it's dangerous."

I just read on Gaynet this afternoon that the Governor of Oregon's 
Office is starting to tally the phone calls on the 9 bill.  I phoned
and urged him to vote No on 9.  I just might be the first international 
voter (Toronto, Canada), but let's hope I'm not the last.

Remember, it doesn't matter where you are.  It's your vote that counts.

Phone the Governor of Oregon at (503) 378-3111 and urge him to vote
No on 9.  

As long as one of us are in chains none of us are free, and 9 is a 
pretty damn big chain.

Paul D. Bobbitt
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #7722  Int: paul.bobbitt@canrem.com  GEnie: P.BOBBITT
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Red Rubbon Rant
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:03:09 GMT

chuckm@dakota.tcs.com (Chuck Meares) wrote: 
->The green ribbons were for ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS.  

really.  as in "we're sorry our environment is dying ... now would you
*please* pass the pate?"

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Out in a snap (was Re: Ah, Fashion.)
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:07:15 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Oct12.121349.2970@macc.wisc.edu>
anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>You're in 'read my mind' mode, I see, as all three of the
>postings of yours I've read this morning (I rather like the
>idea of waking up with John Darrance) are of that sort.
                              ^ oops, sorry.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: The Unwritten Law
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:26:35 GMT

mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:

>norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris) writes:
> >I came out to her about five years ago, while I was getting out of an
> >unhappy marriage.  Although she has a M.S. in clinical psycology,
> >she was sure I was "going through a stage" and she really didn't want
> >to talk about it.
>I have commented on this to Jeff in email (or rather, he to me)-- it
>is really appalling to me to think of someone educated in
>psychology, of all things, holding such attitudes.  
>
>It's a little off the subject of this thread, but one near and dear
>to my heart:  There are psychotherapists who do *not* have attitudes
>like these.  If you are looking for or working with a therapist (and
>there's no particular reason why you should or should not be doing
>that), do yourself a favor and pay close attention to what the
>therapist's attitudes are about sexualities, the gay communities,
>families, and anything else you think might be affected.  If your
>therapist can't deal with these issues, find someone who can.  Get a
>referral from a glb or glb-friendly source.  

My own therapist was VERY glb-friendly; which was lucky for me considering
I got his name from the yellow pages as one of the few PhD's in the area
(so my insurance would help).  Believe me my mother (why are images of 
"Psycho" flashing through my head?) is NOT representative of all therapists.

-jeff [stepping down from his soap-box]
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Why you people alienate so many...
Date: 14 Oct 1992 19:51:28 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com


I have been reading soc.motss for a long time now.  I see certain
patterns which seem to come up a lot.  Here is the scenario:

1. A new poster joins a conversation.  This time it is Matt, last time
it was JD.

2. He says things which infuriate some member of the cabal.  They start 
flaming each other.  Whenever there is a flame war between an old timer
and a cabal member, the rest of the cabal sides with the old timer.  The
war becomes a name calling fest and an insult fest.  This tends to make
the new person look bad, because in your first all out gang insult war,
you always lose.

3. The new comer decides to take another tack.  He posts something with
content.  The cabalistas continue to insult the new person, speaking in
condescending tones.  By this time, however, the cabal members are not
reading what is posted (yes, I am talking to you Jess).  They post in long
pompous tones about how ignorant the person is.

4. Someone thinks to talk with the new comer over email, and finds them to
be intellegent, but green.  A little advice and the newcomer is suddenly a
contributing member of soc.motss.

5. Repeat process forever.


Having been watching the insult war with Matt, I have noticed a number of
things.  First, Matt blew it by starting the name calling, taunting Jess
and Arne.  Then, when other people come to their rescue, Matt started to
taunt them as well.  We all know that this does not work, but with many
years of usenet under our belts, we know that this does not work.

However, if you read the last couple of days worth of Matt's postings, you
will see that he is trying to stay on topic.  However, BBC has been insulting
him in return.  Not commenting on his words, but just insulting.  Jess is 
being condescending (as per usual).  Melinda is siding with the Cabal (as 
per usual) without reading what he is saying.

The patterns have been repeated over and over and over, with different cabal
members taking different roles.  

I have some advice for y'all.  Try reading what he says, and drop the
antagonism and see what changes... Perhaps the coversations will go a little
better.  



FWA