From: "rob brickman" <rob.brickman@canrem.com>
Subject: "re: vatican recognit
Reply-To: "rob brickman" <rob.brickman@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 26 Dec 92 07:57:36 EST

>Jake, of The Department of Redundancy Department :-) Writes
CB>In article <6401#pdxgate.UUCP> a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf) writes:
>
>The vatican's hypocrisy is legendary.  Israel isn't interested in
>lectures on hypocrisy from the vatican.

CB>The vatican has not given Israel a lecture on hypocracy.
CB>But the Vatican, as well as most of the rest of the civilized world, has
CB>taken this position.  The facts are incontrovertible; the oppression is
CB>real, the actions taken by the israeli government against pallestinians
CB>is a violation of human decency, in many cases violates international
CB>law, often violates the Geneva convention, and is not much better than
CB>the way that Hitler treated the Jews around the 40's.

CB>Herd up people, accuse them without proof, deport them, make them
CB>live in 'controllable areas', take away their ability to make a living
CB>by imposing curfews, take away their rights systematically (one-at-a-time),
CB>ad infinitum, suggest that the for one reason or another (Master race, Master
CB>religion, any difference you can think of) one set of people has a right that
CB>another set does not, and what government in recent times are you starting
CB>to sound like?  Nazi Germany is the answer.  Think about it, and then get
CB>back to me about 'hypocracy'.

Your opprobrious comparisons to Nazi Germany are, sadly, not original,
and insult the memory of the millions who died during the Second World War.
They also have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Before you bandy about "facts", you'd best be sure you can back them up.

The "facts" to which you refer are not facts. They are poor mimicry of some
misguided propaganda you've heard.  If, indeed you are ready to discuss the
allegations you've made on a point by point basis, I would suggest that this
would be better done in the context of talk.politics.mideast, where I would be
glad to try and enlighten you.  I have no doubt, however, that you have no
interest in ascertaining which of your passionately held opinions can stand
the test.

As a starting point, why not provide me with textual references for the
following "facts" you've raised, so that we can start to discuss them on a
level playing field.  I will accept *any* reference whatsoever to start with, so
long as it can be independently verified.

 -Under the heading Violations of international law by Israel in the
  territories, I would expect that you would first provide some independent
  documentation of the exact legal status of the territories under
  administration, both before 1967 and afterwards.  I would then anticipate
  seeing documentation of the various international laws which pertain to
  the administration of such territories, and some indication of whether that
  administration has conformed to those laws throughout the past, shall we say,
  75 years.  Then, I would like documentation on the rights of indigenous
  populations during periods of administration.  I would like to see references
  for your consideration of the status of residents of those territories who
  have left for other states, and the rights under international law that those
  emigrants enjoy.  I would like references that would support your presumed
  contention that residents of the territories are treated any worse under
  Israeli administration than their counterparts in, say, Lebanon, Jordan or
  Kuwait.  Since you have raised the Geneva Convention, I would like to see
  specifically the clauses you are discussing, and documentation supporting
  the consistency of application of the Convention in other cases.

-Comparison with Nazi Germany: I would like to see some evidence that you have
  researched the treatment of Jews during the Second World War, and
  the laws in place in Nazi Germany from the 1930's through 1945. I would be
  interested in knowing why you've limited yourself to "the 40's" and I'd like
  to fully understand your distinction between the treatment of Jews in the
  1940's and in decades prior.  I would anticipate seeing some evidence of
  the following, which would convince me that you fully understand the
  comparison you are making:

  -Israeli legislation (either under common law, military law, administrative
   regulations or civic code) which makes it illegal to conduct business,
   own property, establish banking arrangements, take advantage of medical care,
   seek employment or obtain education if one is subject to administration.

  -Evidence that the Israeli government is not democratically constituted, and
   was not democratically elected consistent with international conventions.
   Evidence that the head of government has unlimited power to set policy over
   administration of the territories and their residents without recourse.

  -Evidence that the Israeli government has codified plans for the detention
   and extermination of the entire civilian population under its administration

  -Evidence that the Israeli government has made plans for the relocation or
   extermination of the Israeli Arabs who continue to live within the pre-
   1967 boundries based upon their religion, heritage or any other basis.

  -Evidence that there is State control of all media both within the territory
   under administration and within pre-1967 Israel.

  -Evidence that the Supreme Court of Israel functions at the direction of
   the government or the army.  Evidence that the Supreme Court functions under
   Emergency or War Powers legislation.  Evidence that all citizens of Israel
   do not enjoy rights of due process.  Evidence that appointees to the
   Supreme Court must conform to racial or political ideologies.

  -Specific legislation which suggests that a Master Race or Master Religion
   exists or should exist within Israel or the administered territories to the

(Continued in the next message)
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #12525  "A five time champion with total winnings of $323"
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:24438 misc.invest:15613