From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: Re: Natives Down the River (was re: ALIEN^3 Eggs on Sulaco)
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:09:08 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <Bt3Lxr.EC6@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>In article <4815@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes...
>     ALIENS virtually ignored the first movie.  Instead of an ominous,
>     monolithic, imposing entity simply known as THE COMPANY - and
>     lifted neatly from the pages of Conrad's HEART OF DARKNESS - you
>     have IBM and Mitsubishi in ALIENS - complete with the whiny, backbiting,
>     but not scary, Burke (Paul Riser).  

	I actually found Burke at least shocking, and his behavior chilling.
Releasing facehuggers so as to use Newt and Ripley as incubators... Ripley
basically said it; tough to see the Alien as so evil when one of your own
is willing to use you that way.
	And we didn't KNOW anything about The Company in the first movie.
I assumed when I watched it that it was just a big megacorp, rather like
those in Neuromancer, and there were plenty of others out there.

>     Cameron changed what continuity he wanted between the first movie and
>     his; he changed the alien life cycle you people like to talk about so
>     much; he changed just about everything -- but since you liked the
>     movie, it doesn't matter.

	How did he change the alien life cycle? We knew one (1) thing about
it after the first movie [the book speculated on a lot of other things,
but they didn't appear in the movie and thus are just that, speculation]:
they propogate through a facehugger-implanted embryo.

	As it happened, my guess after seeing the first movie was implemented
almost exactly by Cameron: that those eggs came from something analagous
to a queen bee, which would be created from one of these warrior/worker 
types.

	Cameron paid quite close attention to the first movie, even putting
in little things like characters that behaved very much like their parallels
in the first...

>>	When I went to see Empire Strikes Back, I expected to see something
>>connected with Star Wars. When I went to see Star Trek x, I expected to see
>>a movie that used the Star Trek background in the proper manner. When
>>I went to see Rocky II, I did not expect to see Rocky change professions

>     You mean that when you went to see part II of what was always billed
>     from the beginning as a multi-part epic -- you expected PART II..?

	None of the above were always billed as part of a multi-part epic.
Star Wars may have been outlined in Lucas' brain as being possibly that,
but there was no such advance billing. He had no way of knowing that 
SW would become such a monster hit. (That bit with "Chapter IV: A New
Hope" was added after the first theatrical release). 

	The only one you could reasonably make your claim about was
Star Trek -- there one could be certain of more movies unless the first was
a complete failure.

>     No!  Really?  Listen, what I meant was that ALIEN and ALIENS each
>     told complete stories - self-contained.  No loose ends.  The only
>     impetus to do a sequel came from their boxoffice - not from a 
>     diegetic storyline need.  

	Eh? There have always been loose ends. In the ALIEN films, even
including ALIEN^3, generally it's been the SAME loose end: the alien ship
on LV426.

>     Therefore, nothing that happened in ALIEN^3 can destroy what you loved
>     so much about ALIENS.  Okay, I understand that you expected to see
>     a continuation of Hicks and Newt, et al, but this has always been
>     Ripley's story, and she has always had to "begin the begin" ALONE.
>     She started ALIENS so alone even all her friends and family were
>     dead.  ALIEN^3 was arguably worse: she went to sleep thinking all
>     was well, had a horrible dream, and woke up in a nightmare.
>     How can you possibly say this isn't in keeping with the other two
>     films?

	Like, maybe it's time the poor lady got a F*CKING BREAK??

>>	1) Follow up on ALIENS. This is what they made it APPEAR they were
>>doing, and did very, very badly.
>
>     Funny, I was under the impression that ALIEN^3 spent plenty of time
>     and emotional energy dealing with Newt.  Fully forty-five minutes,
>     in fact, from the first montage to the funeral.

	Yep, but it invalidated all the emotional development of their 
relationship BEFORE. Most of ALIENS drove them together, and in ten minutes
of film in ALIEN^3 they once more rip away everything that Ripley cared
about. To put it bluntly, THAT SUCKS. BADLY.

>     First of all, I can imagine how much you and others would have bitched
>     if ^3 took place before ALIENS... you would have said the SAME things:
>     what about Hicks, what about the marines, what about the Sulaco and
>     Bishop... etc.  Tough shit.  You didn't make this movie.  You have the
>     attitude that you could have done it better - but you couldn't.

	Perhaps not from YOUR point of view. From mine, of COURSE I could.
I know what I like, I can write pretty well, and I have a cinematic eye;
I'm quite sure I could have made an ALIEN^3 I would have loved.

	And I would NOT have bitched anywhere near as much about what
happened if it was set obviously before ALIENS, ignoring it entirely. 
"Alternate universe" I would have said, settled back, and watched. 

	And still I would not have liked it, but it would have been at
least a bit more tolerable.

>>	3) Ignore ALIEN and have an entirely separate cast meet the little
>>bastards.
>
>     ALIEN 4 is probably in active development (with a severely cut-down
>     budget, since ^3 made no money...) at Fox as we speak... don't worry,
>     you'll get your way... and please, let's chat after this film is
>     out... I assure you, it will be more like ALIENS (because people like
>     you bitch when there aren't enough guns to go round).

	There wasn't a single gun in evidence in ALIEN, but I liked it.
Don't get all elitist, eh? 

>     Oh give it a rest... or do me a favor and give me some REAL
>     criticism of ALIEN^3.  You're busy bitching about what you think
>     the movie should have been, but the depth of your bitching suggests
>     you've seen only the commercials.  

	I'm afraid I'll have to use your own line on you. You liked it, so
it doesn't matter.

	What kind of criticism is "REAL"? "Whatever you accept" maybe?

	I expect heroes to survive, there's my first major gripe. I dislike
gloom and doom, and BOY was there gloom and doom in this film. Like, nothing
BUT gloom and doom. Even Ripley's SACRIFICE is utterly meaningless. There
are a couple hundred more eggs back on LV426 and The Company (that you
like so much) can now pop over there and get a couple dozen.

	All the achievements that Ripley made in both movies are now 
meaningless because all that fighting only gave her, what, maybe three
months total of life (coldsleep doesn't count).

	All the guts she had, not only to face her fears but to dare to
care about people, even in the face of Aliens all around her, mean nothing
because everything worth caring for is once more swept away.

	Bishop is used as a cameo, so that we can meet up with a stereotypical
Bad Robot again.

	The Alien is misused once more. It can survive a dunk into molten
 metal, but (after a cooling period) it can't take cold water? Bull. All
the stuff its taken should make that minor contraction period trivial.
And you say this thing doesn't ignore ALIENS? Bull again. Those things hated
the flamethrowers, and molten lead is a HELL of a lot worse than flame
throwers. At that temperature, any organic bonds would be shattered to nothing.


	But you won't care about any of these, because you probably LIKE
gloom and doom movies; if that's your "thing", obviously you'll like ALIEN^3
best of ALL of the Alien movies for the simple reason that the "good guys"
lose and the Company and Alien win.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;