HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: s NAU^NOJ TO^KI ZRENIQ, OTKUDA BER$TSQ TAKOE GOWNO, KAK wLADISLAW?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 20:01:41 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan11.161031.19195@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

>Several observations are in order.  The spurious spelling errors testifiy
>to Dima's ignorance in yet another language; thus we may conclude that
>his frequent gaffes in English are anything but purely accidental.

Ozeleny. Radiating from a beacon of ignorance, this one is rather amusing.
Now let me tell you about your Armenian friend, your hero. The Encyclopedia 
Americana gives, in extenso, the following explanations about the origins 
and the original fatherland of the Armenians:

"It was probably toward the end of the 7th century B.C. that a new
 people, known in history under the name armenians and speaking 
 an Indo-European language, came from the west (according to some
 ancient Greek historians and geographers, they came from the
 Balkan peninsula together with the Phrygians) and occupied the
 land of Urartu."[1]

[1] The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 Edition, Chapter Armenians, p. 267.

Sarkis Atamian explains in his book called 'The Armenian Community,
New York 1955, Philosophical Library' that, according to historians,
original fatherland of the Armenians was in Thessaly, Greece.

Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of Urartus,
massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the
world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian civilization.

All reliable historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly exterminated 
2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of Eastern 
Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the Ottoman 
Empire between 1914-1920.

It is unfortunately a truth that Armenians are known as collaborators
of the Nazis during World War II and that, even today, criminal
members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle preach and instigate
racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples. 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy (was drivel about Deportations)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:47:31 GMT

In article <29949@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

# In article <17810@umd5.umd.edu> spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:

# ~Oh, but according to you,Jerry,  they have. If what you say is true , then  
# ~the only thing the Israelis are guilty of is taking a page from the  
# ~domestic policy manual of the UK for Northern Ireland. 
 
# It always gives me a good laugh to see comments on Northern Ireland from
# dimwits across the herring pond. Compare and contrast:
 
	And it always gives me a good laugh to see a bloody fool make an
even bigger fool of himself.

# The Birmingham Six: Mistakenly imprisoned after a trial, later released after
# much public outrage and serious examination of the judicial system.

	"Mistaken"?!!  How about FRAMED.  And the coverup went very
high.  And how long did it take before they were freed?

# The Lebanon FourHundredAndEighteen: Deported in contravention of the Geneva
# Convention, without any trial whatsoever, to overwhelming public support, and
# rubber-stamped by the Israeli Kangaroo^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Supreme Court.

	Total ignorance of the Geneva Convention and the ISraeli justice
system.  Is British education really THAT bad?

# Ghaza Strip: A place where little girls throw stones.

	And other than that, people go on with their lives as they do
anywhere else.  Right Jeremy?

# Belfast: A place where armed men leave Semtex.

	But no violence is ever committed in Gaza.  No armed men in gaza.
Golly gee.

	Shotly after the Intfada started, A Brittish diplomat in Israel
strongly condemned the Israeli government.  David broder, one of the
most respected columnists in the US (if not the most respected) wrote
a syndicated article telling the Brits they had better shut up.  Their
actual behavior in Northern Ireland was worse than anything the
Israelis, in their worst of moods, could ever even contemplate.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: PLO Hires an Israeli ex-con to Kill Israeli Leaders
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:28:27 GMT

If anyone has been following the details of the arrest of the
Israeli ex-con (from Rishon Le'tzion) who was hired by top
PLO officials to kill Israeli leaders, can he post about it?
The story broke out last Friday.

Hey, this guy could be the new Vanunu! Another tragic hero...

-Danny Keren.

"I am holding your balls in my hand [squeezing motion]" - MK Toufik Ziad
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:24:37 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
[ILAN] I was reading the San Francisco Chronicle, when I saw this article.
[ILAN] Jan 1 1993
[ILAN] The story was about Egypts recent raids arresting el Islamiya members,
[ILAN] so far they have arrested over 700.
[ILAN] My question is:  Why is this on page 15?
[ILAN]             Why isn't CNN covering this?
[ILAN] 
[ILAN] Israel deports 415, it's on page 1 of every paper in the country, and the
[ILAN] lead TV story.
[ILAN] Why doesn't Egypt punishing terrorists rate the same newsworthyness of 
[ILAN] Israel punishing terrorists?
[ILAN] Can You say "hypocrisy" boys and girls?

A Jew killing a Jew, who cares? An Arab killing an Arab, who cares?
But a Jew killing an Arab, g-d forbid. I never understood this logic, usually
used in the UN or the media.

In my book all three are condemnable. Add to that anybody killing anybody.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)
Subject: Re: Cat Steven's visit to Israel (& concert!)
Organization: Computer Assisted Writing Centre, York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:47:38 GMT

Shaqeeqa writes:Is:
>>
>>>Irene, you cited was from July 27,
>1988 and my article in s.c.j. referred to 1990.  I never stated that
>Yousef Islam *never* visited Israel - don't mix the two issues.
>>
>>   You asked for my source stating Cat Stevens visiting Israel.  I
>>provided it.  No issue mixing.
>
>Sigh.  I asked for your source stating that Yousef Islam (what - you
>aren't even going to *recognize* his name, Irene? :-) WAS admitted in
>1990, according to the original article.  Shall I resubmit it for you?
>
>Again, I never stated that Yousef Islam never visited Israel.  I cited
>from memory (later to post that article to confirm my statement), that
>he was refused admission.  Then you quote an article from **1988**,
>which was COMPLETELY out of context.  Therefore, you mixed the two
>issues

>If you would have simply posted the article in the very beginning to
>support your statements (which, so far, ONLY prove that Yousef Islam has
>donated monies to Hamas) instead of using distortions through (your)
>personal perspectives to try and cover up the facts, this issue could
>have been more easily resolved.  (And you think *we* are the difficult
>ones!)  In the future, please deal directly with the issue and know the
>differences between real facts and how they relate to the subject matter,
>as well as clearly addressing them - not muddling it.
>
>>Anisa


You are a bit confused here.

This all started with a post you made to soc.culture.jewish
mentioning that Yousef Islam (Cat Stevens) was denied entry
to Israel at some point.  I don't think you mentioned when
when this was to have occured.

I sent a follow-up post saying that I remembered Mr. Islam to
have visited Israel and then giving the standard Israel
bashing interviews to reporters after the trip.

You then produced a 1990 article from Rocky Mountain News
describing Mr. Islam's unsuccessful entry to Israel and asked
me to provide a source for my recollection.

I then did an on-line literature search using the keywords
Cat Stevens & Israel.  That is how I got the 1988 & 1990
articles.  i.e. I didn't have either article at my disposal
when I made my first post regarding Mr. Islam's Israel trip.  
There was no attempt to deceive or mix issues and I resent the
implication.  There was clearly no distortion on my part.

Similarly, you asked for a source documenting Mr. Islam's
support for Hamas.  So I again did a lit search, this time
using Cat Stevens & Hamas as keywords, and got the second
article.

Hope this clears up this issue.
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 4 Jan 1993 06:54:55 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) says:

>marwang@staccato.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>[About Golda Meir]:
>
># It seems that a lot of people blindly believed everything that poped
># off Miss Universe's mouth. Her charming face mislead a lot of people
># to beleive all the lies she said.
>
>It is *really* embarassing that a student in a respected university
>would write things like that. Please try to control yourself.
>
>-Danny Keren.
Having debated Marwan before, I can tell you he is a very angry man who
lets his emotion overrule his good sense.  While there are many legitimate 
arguments for the Palestinian cause.  Marwan fails to create them.


-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25251 soc.culture.turkish:14182
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: LEST WE FORGET: Filip Muller's Testimony (Auschwitz)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 20:50:54 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan12.085725.11720@midway.uchicago.edu> mfm0@ellis.uchicago.edu (martin frederic melhus) writes:

>>And so it has been to this day. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in 
>>Europe had established a vast network of pro-German collaborators, 
>>that extended over two continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving 
>(more stuff about Armenian Nazis omitted - MFM.)

>Mabye it's just me, but Slovaks and Armenians are different people.  Unless
>Serdar can come up with some fancy justification for this discrepancy, I'd
>argue that his article has no relevance to the first article in this 
>thread.  

Your opinion. Hardly fact, hardly useful.

>If he feels that Armenian Nazis are worth discussion in Alt.
>revisionism, perhaps he should start a new thread.  Sadly, this looks like

I am forced to disagree with you. Who decides on that? "Ken Bibb" and
"HELA.iti" fascists of "news.admin.policy"? What I wrote above is easily 
documented, and has been. While having collaborated with the Nazis against 
Stalin during the Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy 
after Hitler's defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish 
provinces, hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their 
Muslim population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America
for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish
government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.

[1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &
    Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?
Date: 5 Jan 93 11:02:17 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1i913gINNcif@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm659@huxley.anu.edu.au (Brendan D McKay) writes:
~In article <1993Jan4.032427.26730@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
~
~>As to the major characteristic of Nazi terror, mass murder of
~>civilians with poison gas, it was practiced in the mideast only
~>by Arabs against other Arabs (Iraq and Egypt).
~
~Actually it was first used by the British against the Kurds.  There
~is a nasty little quote from Winston Churchill (then War Sec) that
~he couldn't see any problem with using gas against ignorant
~savages, or something like that.
~

This was discussed a while ago elsewhere:

Article: 8351 of soc.culture.british
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Irish fanaticism
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:32:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Hi again, Wayne.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 23:22:33 GMT

In article <29851@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>First of 
>all we can dispose of the myth that Rabin is a peacemaker [...]

If only people would dispose of the same myth surrounding yasser
Arafat, then we might finally be getting somewhere.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Terrorism
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:55:45 GMT


 <1483500319@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>My attempt at definiton is the following:

>TERRORISM constitutes the infliction of physical harm to
>civilians for political purposes.

>Do you agree, folks ?
>Submitted by Elias Davidsson

	Nope.
	If someone plants a bomb which later explodes in a 
        military transport plane flying to Somalia, 
	I would consider that TERRORISM, even if none of the
	dead were civilians.



-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Report: U.S. insists Pakistan p
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:57:10 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1483500319@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>For the sake of an enlighting debate, I would be thankful if
>we would agree on a definition of TERRORISM.
>My attempt at definiton is the following:

>TERRORISM constitutes the infliction of physical harm to
>civilians for political purposes.
>
>Do you agree, folks ?

Mostly.  Lets expand it a bit though:

Terrorism is violence[1] committed by a paramilitary entity[2]
against semi-randomly[3] chosen civilians[4] with the intent of influencing the
political process.[6] 


[1] Violence is defined a priori. :)

[2] a military can commit war crimes, not terrorism.

[3] the targets of terrorism need to be identified in some way with
the people whose politics you are attempting to influence. E.g.,  Shooting
Yassir Arafat's wife is not likely to influence the Japanese
electorate, while shooting the Crown Prince's wife most likely would.
The victims should also be random, to cause fear in the minds of the
people responsible for the political process.

[4] A civilain is defined as a non-combatant.  I quote Bertil Jonell
<d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>, from Sci.military.  He mailed this to me,
but all private comments have been deleted, and this is close to what
appeared in sci.mil

-----------------------Begin Include--------------------------------------
  I think that there is some confusion about terms here. Quoting from the
chapter about international law during war in the Svensk Soldat 'Swedish 
Soldier' manual the definition of 'combattant'.

  "Combattants are members of
  o The armed forces, excepting medical personell and military priests.
  o Organized resistance movements, under the condition that they bear their
    arms openly during preparation for and participation in combat. In some
    cases are sleeve-badges also required.

   Requirements placed upon all are
  o That they act under leadership that are in charge and responsible.
  o That they follow the rules of war when conducting their actions."

---------------------End Include--------------------------------------

[5] There is no note 5!

[6] The political process implies the existance of some sort of
electorate.  I'm not sure if this is needed for terrorism or just
effective terrorism.  Probably the later, but I'd be willing to play
devils advocate and say that terrorism against subjects of a
totalitarian government is merely (misdirected?) psychotic behavior. 

FYI, we have had this discussion before.  It boiled down to two
strains of argument:  terrorism is in the eye of the beholder, and
Jeremy Henderson and I argued about a man named Lysander? who claimed
that terrorism is "dialog termination in the post modern condition."
Which I still dont grok.


Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:03:14 CST

In article <30068@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> 
> How is one supposed to tell the difference between, say, Makowsky, who
> supports the deportation, and you, who support the deportation. You may
> give different labels to your views, but the end result is the same for
> the deportees. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . .


	How is one suppose to tell the difference between war
	and peace. People die whether they go to war or live
	in peace, so the end result is the same for all people.

	Therefore: War = peace.

	How is one suppose to tell the difference between someone
	who is chasing a man while holding a knife in his hand, 
	and another who is chasing a man in a sport event. The end
	result is that the man is running.

	Therefore: A killer = an athlet.


	H.R. Perot and N. Tractinsky are both for cutting the budget
	deficit. The end result is that the deficit will increase.

	Therefore: Perot = Tractinsky.

	And we could go on and on with the Henderson logic, which is
	but a childish expression of bigoted and racist ideas.


	To equate individuals who hold different opinions on almost
	any matter just because they happen to have a similar 
	opinion on one issue is ridiculous. The interesting phenonemon,
	of course, lies in the _issue_ that was able to unite 
	apparently two very different individuals. But who cares
	about issues.


Noam


  
> -- 
> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
> 
> This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
> Bloody good value if you ask me.
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: PLO Hires an Israeli ex-con to Kill Israeli Leaders
Summary: Puuuleeeze!
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:20:43 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1993Jan4.172827.27000@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>If anyone has been following the details of the arrest of the
>Israeli ex-con (from Rishon Le'tzion) who was hired by top
>PLO officials to kill Israeli leaders, can he post about it?
>The story broke out last Friday.

Come on, there has only been an *allegation* that this man had been
hired by 'the PLO' or at least I have heard nothing more. Some two
bit hood claims to have been hired by the PLO or better still unnamed
'top PLO officials' and you report it as literal truth? I'll believe
it when I see it on CNN :-)

>Hey, this guy could be the new Vanunu! Another tragic hero...

Hey, this could all be a load of old cobblers. I know which is more likely

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: american opinion
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: talk,world
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 11:00:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.133115.155@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In <bill.726186571@bcserv>, bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill)) writes:
>> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>>In<bill.725741652@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:

>>>> This is a good analogy.  What do you have to do to get citizenship then?

>>>I'm afraid you simply don't understand that in MANY European countries,
>>>citizenship is not automatic. Switzerland is no exception.

>> I'm afraid you don't understand.  In most countries, gaining citizenship
>> through immigration is not automatic.

>I was *not* referring to immigrants.

>>  However, in most countries, being
>> born there does guarantee you citizenship (with a variety of exceptions
>> and modifications).  Certainly there aren't many European countries that
>> disenfranchise large portions of their population (and the ones that do
>> aren't generally called democratic)/.

>I had NO idea that Switzerland wasn't democratic. You *really* ought to tell
>this to the Swiss Embassy in Washington.

>To reiterate: you can be born in Switzerland, your father can be born in
>Switzerland and your grandfather can be born in Switzerland, but this does NOT
>automatically grant you Swiss citizenship.

Are you serious?   I think I will write to the Swiss embassy.  That's
absurd.  Of course, women in Switzerland couldn't vote until when, 1970-
something, so that isn't too surprising.

How can you be born in the country and not be a citizen?

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina