From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Isaiah does not prophesy Christ
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:53:37 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <765330d3663354t188@witsend.uucp> dcs@witsend.tnet.com (D. C. Sessions) writes:
|In <78497@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)  wrote:
|# 
|# In article <fWFaqVV@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
|# >Only when poorly translated does Isaiah prophesy Christ.
|# 
|# Are you referring to all of Isaiah?
|# 
|# Or do you mean the verse that says something to the effect of "for unto
|# you a child is born and the government shall be upon his shoulders
|# and he shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
|# Father, Prince of Peace and his kingdom will see no end" - is this
|# the verse you are referring to?
|
|  Dear me.  Please check with your local Xtian scholar; last I heard
|  even they admitted that this one was CONTEMPORARY.  Isiah was
|  referring to a child even then in utero.  Present tense, folks.

Oh.  Since the above is Isaiah 9:6-7, then why does the first verse in 
Isaiah 9 (NIV) lead into this with "IN THE PAST ..., BUT IN THE FUTURE"?

    Isaiah 9:1-7 (NIV)   Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom 
    for those who were in distress. IN THE PAST he humbled the land 
    of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, BUT IN THE FUTURE he will 
    honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the 
    Jordan-- {2} The people walking in darkness have seen a great 
    light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a 
    light has dawned. {3} You have enlarged the nation and increased 
    their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the 
    harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder. {4} For as in 
    the day of Midian's defeat, you have shattered the yoke that 
    burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their 
    oppressor. {5} Every warrior's boot used in battle and every 
    garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be 
    fuel for the fire. {6} For to us a child is born, to us a son is 
    given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will 
    be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, 
    Prince of Peace. {7} Of the increase of his government and peace 
    there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over 
    his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and 
    righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the 
    LORD Almighty will accomplish this. 

|# Oh, It seems that I keep missing your (PH's) explanation.  Why is it 
|# that this JPS translation is superior to say the NASB or NIV or even
|# the KJV?  
|#
|# It seems that you believe/know that these translators of the JPS
|# have mastered both Hebrew and English, but yet no one else seems
|# to be able to do that.  
|
|  Well, the first is certainly true.  Chances are that they read it
|  in the original before they ever saw a translation.  BTW, the

And they have now mastered English, better than those who were
reading English???

|  version I use is the Soncino Press edition; it's handy to have
|  the Hebrew on facing pages.

Good.

|  The Xian versions are derived from a long history of translation
|  going beck to the Septuagint.  Unfortunately, several gross
|  misquotes made it into the Xian scriptures and ever since Xian

Are you referring to the OT?

|  translators have had to doctor their work to make everything fit.
|  The best-known example immediately precedes the verse you cite,
|  where Xian translators squirm around the fact that Isaiah does
|  NOT say "virgin" despite Xian doctrine.  Oops.

Oops, the word, to my understanding, means one who is engaged to
be married - who traditionally would be a virgin - maybe not in
today's society, but most likely true in Israel's at that time.
They married pretty young.

|# Also, you seem to be able to pick out a few key words within Isaiah 53
|# and so explain away the whole passage - do you really think the
|# rest of it has nothing to do with Jesus, who is Christ the Lord.
|
|  You really want to get into this?  I thought we hashed it out
|  in e-mail.Oh, very well.  But let's put things in context with
|  a few words from Isaiah 52 [bracketed comments mine -- dcs]:

I don't remember our conversation, but anyway.

Yes, let's cite all of Isaiah 52.

Not only is this passage speaking to the current situation
of Israel it speaks to the coming of the Lord and His routing
of the enemies of Israel - a recurrent theme in the OT, as you know.

    Isaiah 52 (NIV)   Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with 
    strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the 
    holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you 
    again. {2} Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, O 
    Jerusalem. Free yourself from the chains on your neck, O captive 
    Daughter of Zion. {3} For this is what the LORD says: "You were 
    sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed." 

It seems the Egyptian was behind them, obviously, AND the Assyrian
captivity was in full swing.

    {4} For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "At first my 
    people went down to Egypt to live; lately, Assyria has oppressed 
    them. {5} "And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD. "For 
    my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule 
    them mock, " declares the LORD. "And all day long my name is 
    constantly blasphemed. 

Because of lack of respect for the Lord, He tells what will happen:
One will come and they will know that it is the Lord who foretold it.

                            {6} Therefore my people will know my 
    name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who 
    foretold it. Yes, it is I." {7} How beautiful on the mountains 
    are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, 
    who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, 
    "Your God reigns!" {8} Listen! Your watchmen lift up their 
    voices; together they shout for joy. When the LORD returns to 
    Zion, they will see it with their own eyes. {9} Burst into songs 
    of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has 
    comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem. {10} The LORD 
    will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and 
    all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God. 
    {11} Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! 
    Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the 
    LORD. {12} But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for 
    the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear 
    guard. {13} See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised 
    and lifted up and highly exalted. {14} Just as there were many 
    who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured 
    beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human 
    likeness-- {15} so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will 
    shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, 
    they will see, and what they have not heard, they will 
    understand. 

|  {8} Hark, your watchmen! they lift up the voice, together do they
|  sing; for they shall see, eye to eye, THE LORD returning to Zion.
|  {9} Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem;
|  For THE LORD has comforted His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem.
|  {10} THE LORD has made bare His holy arm [NB, dcs] in the eyes of all
|  the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation
|  of our God.  [now a call to the exiles] {11} Depart, depart, go out
|  from there, touch no unclean thing [since the Holy One is leading
|  them and they should be pure in the Presence], Go out of the midst
|  of her [Babylon], be clean, you that bear the vessels of THE LORD
|  [Temple vessels returning from captivity, carried by the Levites,
|  the Temple SERVANTS].  {12} For you shall not go out in haste,
|  neither shall you go by flight, for THE LORD will go before you,
|  and the God of Israel will be your rearward [thus the call for
|  ritual purity].  {13} Behold, My servant shall prosper [who's
|  this servant suddenly?  Golly, is this a major break or could this
|  actually refer to the same people in the previous five?  Wow!]

Maybe it is a special One, since the pronoun used here is He ("My
servant shall propser; He shall be exhalted")?  

|  He shall be exhalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
|  {14} According as many were appalled at you [the degradation of
|  the conquest and captivity], so marred was his visage unlike that
|  of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men, {14} So

Again - His and He?  Hmm.  Maybe the You above is not the He?

|  shall he startle many nations, Kings shall shut their mouths
|  because of him; For that which had not been told them they shall
|  see, and that which they had not heard they shall perceive.
|
|Of course, we COULD assume that Isaiah has no continuity; that there
|is a complete break between verses 52:12 and 52:13.  Or that the
|servant of 52:13 is not the servant of 53.  Or some such.  If you

There is a change of pronoun even in your translation.  The
servants in 52 and 53 are the same.

|start from the assumption that this MUST be crowbarred to fit your
|own theory you can hack it up any one of a dozen ways.  You could,
|for instance, introduce a chapter break right here.  For those who
|haven't heard, the chapter/verse numbering doesn't exist in the
|Hebrew but was added in Xian versions.

Oh. I guess you've exposed the whole cover-up. :-)  The chapter
division don't necessarily indicate a break in continuity.

|Rashi and Ibn Ezra, on the other hand, teach that 53:1 follows
|directly from 52:15.  The kings (above) then say, wondering:

I agree.  But obviously, you and/or they strain to say the
HE person is the YOU persons in order to make a point.

|#     Isaiah 53 (NIV)   Who has believed our message and to whom has 
|#     the arm of the LORD been revealed? {2} He grew up before him 
|#     like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground.
|
|  This is an odd translation.  I have "For he shot up right forth as
|  a sapling, and as a root out of dry ground."  The "before him"
|  fersher ain't in the Hebrew.

The KJV is considered a very accurate translation - it is a little
archaic in style, but that doesn't mean it is inaccurate.

    (KJV) {53:1} Who hath believed our report? and to whom is
    the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before
    him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he

|#                                                              He had 
|#     no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his 
|#     appearance that we should desire him.
|
|  According to your interpretation, who's this "we"?  You'll note
|  that reading in the context of 52:15 leaves no such difficulty.

KJV:hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is
    no beauty that we should desire him. 

WE refers to the people or people in general.

|#                                           {3} He was despised and 
|#     rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. 
|#     Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we 
|#     esteemed him not. {4} Surely he took up our infirmities and 
|#     carried our sorrows,
|
|  Really reaching here.  "Took up" is NOT the same as "bore", in
|  English or in Hebrew, so why did your translators change the
|  plain meaning of the text?  ("Surely our diseases he did bear,
|  and our pains he carried")

KJV:{3} He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and 
    acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; 
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not. {4} Surely he hath borne 
    our griefs, and carried our sorrows: 

Takig up or barring (borne) are they different to you?

|#                          yet we considered him stricken by God, 
|#     smitten by him, and afflicted.
|
|  Here, the kings are recalling how they had ascribed Israel's
|  troubles to Divine affliction.  Now they realize that instead,
|  it was the oppression of men:

It seems you've strain over the YOU/HE pronoun bit and have gotten
confused.  WE consider HIM afflicted - the people consider the
Servant afflicted by God.

                                          yet we did esteem him stricken, 
    smitten of God, and afflicted. 

It is the Servant that is afflicted, as the NT tells us that God
planned for Him.  

|#                                    {5} But he was pierced for our
|#     transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the 
|#     punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds 
|#     we are healed.
|
|  Whew!  Try "He was WOUNDED because of our transgressions, he was
|  crushed because of our iniquities,"; there is a difference between
|  causality and exchange.

There is a difference between causality and exchange.  In context,
the BECAUSE/FOR relates the sameing meaning.  Could you quote
the rest of the verse, so it is clear what the translation you use
is saying?

|#                    {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
|#     us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 
|#     iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
|#     did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
|#     and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 
|#     his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
|
|  Remember Babylon?

Oh, did the people of Israel just willing go to Babylon without any
protest?  Jesus went to the cross without protest - he didn't defend
himself and so try to get out of the death he knew he was going to
experience.  

|#                                                                  And 
|#     who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
|#     land of the living;
|
|  Babylonian captivity.  Land.  Get it?

His death on the Cross - get it?

|#                         for the transgression of my people he was 
|#     stricken.
|
|  The kings, folks.  Lamenting.

HE NOT THEY.  He was stricken for the people's transgressions.

|#               {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 
|#     the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
|#     any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
|#     crush him and cause him to suffer,
|
|  Now I wonder why your translation doesn't say "to crush him by
|  disease"?  Inconvenient?

KVJ:                     {9} And he made his grave with the 
    wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no 
    violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it
    pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when 

Cite the whole verse.  Inconvenient?


|#                                        and though the LORD makes his 
|#     life a guilt offering,
|
|  Whew! really a reach here.  Try "to see if his soul would offer
|  itself in restitution".  Of course, that doesn't fit, does it?

KJV: thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, 

Cite the whole verse, if you can.

|#                            he will see his offspring and prolong his 
|#     days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
|
|  If it's a king speaking here there's no problem, but otherwise
|  you have to reconcile the "my people" in 53:8 with the third-
|  person divinity here.  By the way, how do YOU deal with the
|  "that he may see his offspring, prolong his days" bit, if this
|  means someone who died young and childless?  Oh, I'll bet it's
|  intended FIGURATIVELY!

KJV:                                                he shall see his 
    seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD
    shall prosper in his hand. 

Could it be spiritual?  Could this dying young and being childless
and then the offspring and prolong his day be a reference to the
death and the resurrection (and subsequently living for eternity)?

|#     {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
|#     life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
|#     will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 
|
|  Careful with the tenses! "... My servant, who by his knowledge did
|  justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did
|  bear."  Quite a bit different, no?  Hebrew poetry relies more on
|  the meanings of words than on their sounds, so it's important to
|  "JUSTify" (Yatzdek) the "JUST" (Tzadek) to the many unJUST.

KJV:{11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: 
    by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall 
    bear their iniquities. 

Again we see that He (not the we) bare the iniquties of the people.
Also, the KJV gives the same type of translation.

|#     {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
|#     will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
|#     his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
|#     For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
|#     transgressors. 

KJV:{12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the
    great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he
    hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with
    the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made 
    intercession for the transgressors.

|  Sure sounds like the joyous return to Jerusalem, with posessions
|  restored.  Fits in nicely with 54, too:

Yep, sounds like Jesus, for he poured out his soul unto death.
And he was numbered with the transgressions (the two criminals on
the two crosses).  And Jesus is our Advocate forever making
intercession to the Father for us.

|  {1} Sing, oh barren, you that did not bear, break forth into singing
|  and cry aloud, you who did not travail; for more are the children of
|  the desolate than the children of the married wife, says THE LORD.
|
|  .... and continuing with the verses of consolation, telling of the
|  return of the exiles.  Seamless.  A single thematic whole, and some
|  of the most beautiful poetry ever.  Why hack it up to twist a verse
|  here and there out of context into another meaning altogether?

I agree - Jesus will come and restore Israel and route the enemies.
This is the theme thoughout the OT and is echoed again in the NT.

However, it seems the earlier twisting of the WE (the people) and
the HE (the Servant) pronouns seemed to be in error.  It also
seems to ignore the big picture of the prophecy of God winning the
victory over the whole world and His supreme reign on the earth.

Do you think the OT is valid and the NT is not?  Give me (us) some
insight on your approach to Scripture.

|--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
|--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
|--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu      |  Love and Worship God, the Creator of the Earth. 
                          --|--   
Pro-Life!              -|-  |  -|-    Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility!     |   |   |     before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6 
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