HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:32:11 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-071092185824@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|In article <70322@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
|Pitts) wrote:
|> You, by the statement of your zeal here, give credence for what the people
|> did write.  They did witness it (there were over five hundred that
|> saw Jesus alive).  I think there were many gospels, as Luke points out,
|> but only the one's that were really close or first hand (the apostles
|> and thier companions) were canonized.
|
|Interesting, a simple question, why didn't the Christians publish
|all five hundred Gospels? What was wrong with them, contradictions
|maybe?

There could have been, but maybe not.  These four could be representative
of all of the gospels.  

|> You are right - the resurrection from the dead was not taken for granted.
|> The people did write about it - just like you say you would write about
|> it, but you seem to say that they could not have experienced such things.
|> They had the zeal that you would have had you been there, but isn't it
|> their zeal that you use against them?  Should they have been timid?
|
|I would have certainly written down the story if I would have seen
|the resurrection. If there were actually five hundred witness Gospels
|I would actually believe in the story. However, four final versions,
|canonized by a standardization committee doesn't exactly provide me
|with a lot of confidence, especially when we don't even know who wrote
|the four Gospels. And when the Gospels have three different versions
|of Jesus' final words, for instance, does that really provide me
|with confidence in the witness reports? Would a jury believe three
|different endings?

Matthew and Mark both write about Jesus saying something like "Eloi, Eloi,
My God, My God why have you forsaken me."  Then they close with the
following.

   Mat 27:50   And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up
       his spirit.
   
   Mark 15:37   With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Luke does not cover the above, but says Jesus died with this.
   
   Luke 23:46   Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I
      commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

There is no contradiction.  Two say he cried out and died and the other
states what he said when he cried out and then died.

If they had all said the same thing, would you not say they copied?

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 05:57:25 GMT

In article <Bvtzx9.5rL@acsu.buffalo.edu> 
psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes:
>	This is called equivocation. The issue is not whether 
>unitarians are christian, or whether being a member of a presbyterian 
>church makes one a christian. The issue is whether being a member of 
>the LDS makes one a christian.
>	By changing the subject at hand, one is ignoring the issue.
>	I'm sure that we could cover presbyterians later.

I'll bet! Divide and conquer just like the Romans, purge Christianity
one sect at a time, eh? How clever!
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18556 alt.peeves:15779
From: geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.peeves
Subject: Re: How do they do it?
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:36:48 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc,alt.peeves
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: purplehaze.corp.sun.com



In article <1bn8c4INN2ov@smaug.West.Sun.COM> dab@ism.isc.com (Dave Butterfield) writes:

>Tarantulas *never* sting.  Also, they seldom bite.


I don't care.  Just keep the sonsabitches the hell away from me!


Geoff

                                  \       /
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   \  _  /  -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Jet Noise                           \/_\/                      Makes Me Horny
               ()------------------(|_*_|)------------------() 
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM              Sun Microsystems, Menlo Park, Ca. 
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Method of Christ's conception
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:49:35 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct15.154240.59748@cc.usu.edu> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.190632.21593@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
>[...]
>> The LDS 'description of his mother and the way she conceived' is
>> not the Bible description.  The LDS historically have taught that
>> the 'virgin birth' was merely God the father, an exalted man with
>> a body of flesh and bones, having sex with Mary.  
>
>"... [Mary] was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matt.1:18.)
>[NIV, renders it "through the Holy Ghost"]
>
>"Then Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know
>not a man?"  [NIV, renders it "since I am a virgin?"]
>
>"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall
>come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow
>thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee
>shall be called the Son of God."  (Luke 1:34-35.)
>
>These are the only bible passages (that I can find) that
>deal specifically with the conception of Jesus Christ.
>
>What are the possibilities that can be inferred from these two
>passages regarding the conception of Christ?
>
>How does a female become pregnant "of/through the Holy Ghost"?
>
>How does the Holy Ghost comming upon a female (no pun intended)
>and the power of the Highest overshadowing the same female make
>that female pregnant?
>
>What do "come upon thee" and "overshadow thee" have to do with
>conception and becoming pregnant in these passages?
>
>What "means" could God have used to bring about the conception of
>Christ, that would be explained by the passages above?
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu

Who knows, but she was a virgin, and she had a baby! And this is the act
that describes how it happened.  I figure God has a reason for not
explaining to us "the how's" involved here.  He just wants us to know it
happened!  Any comments?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 22:20:47 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <VwXNsB1w165w@topcat>, topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom 
Albrecht) writes:
> "... homosexuals threatened to begin killing Christians if the initiative
> passes next month.  The warning appeared on posters telling voters to vote
> no, or else, 'We shoot the fish.'
>    The intended targets of the death threats were unmistakable.  The
> posters contained a drawing of the traditional symbol of Christianity, the
> fish. The Greek word for fish, ixthus, was used in ancient times as an
> acrostic to signify, 'Jesus Christ God Son Savior.'  The placards went on
> to say that the warnings weren't an idle threat.  If homosexuals lost their
> privileged status at the ballot box, the killing would begin.
>    I hope the irony of this situation doesn't escape the American public,
> particularly those most vocally committed to civil rights.
>    In the name of freedom and equality, Christian voters in Oregon
> literally will go to the polls in the crosshairs of a rifle. ..."
> 
>                                         Robert Moeller
>                                         _World_ Magazine
>                                         Vol. 7 #20, 10/10/92

So on the side of the opponents of the proposal, we have posters threatening
violence.  Do we have an organizaztion claiming responsibility for the posters? 
And what about taxation without representation?

On the side of the proponents of the proposal, we have beatings, fire-bombings
(of churches, no less!) and two murders.

It isn't too hard to figure out here who the more violent group is...
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: skinner@sp94.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 19:49:39 GMT

Ken Arromdee feels that the claim that those who seek first God's
kingdom and righteousness will not lack food or clothes is trivially
satisfied.  He compares the effect to the sun rising and humans having
ten fingers.  Certainly there is a nontrivial difference.  The sun
rises daily and only a small percentage of humans lack ten fingers,
but many humans lack daily food or clothing.

Ken Arromdee writes:
>If someone who seeks Jesus has food and clothing, and someone who doesn't seek>Jesus has food and clothing, it would appear that seeking Jesus makes no
>difference.

Certainly this is not a necessary appearance.  Consider a similar
scenario: If someone who never brushes his teeth has numerous dental
cavities, and someone who brushes often also has numerous cavities, it
would appear that brushing makes no difference in the reduction of
cavities.
--
Gregg Skinner       I do not speak for any organization.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Mormons and Masons
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:42:40 GMT

Jason writes.........>
>And what's wrong with Masons?
>
>The last I heard, Joseph Smith did not join the Masonic oder
>until after the temple cermonies were revealed.

>I don't have ther resources, though, to back up this bit of
>hearsay.

Jason, I would be interested in what your resources say.  The LDS
_History of the Church_ vol.4 p.551, under the date of March 15, 1842,
states Joseoh Smith "received the First Degree in Free-Masonry in the
Nauvoo lodge."  On p.552 for March 16 it states he "rose to the
sublime degree."  Vol.5, pp.1-2 states he gave the temple endowments
less than 2 months later (May 4, 1842).

You asked 'whats wrong with Masons?'  I would say nothing is wrong
with Masons, but I wouldnt want to build a religion on Masonry --
with oaths of having your tongue pulled out by the roots as was
required when a Mormon recieved the first token of the Aaronic
Priesthood.

Mark
<standard disclaimer>
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18384 alt.atheism:19087
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.philosophy,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Jesus's bloodline mystery and two different Jesus's was (I'm God.)
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:36:03 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications, Plano Tx.

In article <kc7-LX@engin.umich.edu> ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.175552.13136@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>>
>> 		 "Just a myth"
>>
>>Kent Sandvik writes:
>>
>>>Hello again, should we take this one as a good example where the myth
>>>is false, or not? Or are the two different genealogies, just, a myth???
>>
>>
>>Consider the possibility that with the incarnation of Christ,
>>not only the prophecies of the Jews but also the archetypal
>>myths of the rest of humanity were fulfilled.  C. S. Lewis
>>noticed this and it led ultimately to his conversion from
>>skepticism to Christianity.
>>
>>Thanks for keeping us on our toes.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Gerry Palo  
>
> Um, just because the story of Jesus is a particularly well-told story
>does not make it true...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Ingles
> ingles@engin.umich.edu
>
> "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
>stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein

You are right.  I didn't say that its being well told
makes it true.  I just said consider.  

Cordially,
Gerry Palo
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians?
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:05:25 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Oct14.004925.8904@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>,
 press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
> [...]
>> That's why the best way is to "love your enemies, bless them that
>> curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
>> despitefully use you and persecute you".
>> 
> Good advice Jason! Now, can you tell me some of the lost secrets
> of the original twelve apostles without accusing me of stirring
> up strife? 

No. I cannot because I don't have the resources available to me
to do so.

Why don't you try William Hamblin or Jay Windley.  There are much
better versed in 1AD documents.  I assume you want documentation
and not just my opinion.

Maybe Dana or Gordon are more familiar than I am with such things.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:08:33 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.144154.22467@csrd.uiuc.edu> g-skinner@uiuc.edu writes:
>The burden of proof would indeed be on my side if I were trying to
>prove the claims of Jesus correct.  As I have stated from the
>beginning, the Idaho parody had a single purpose: To make light of the
>criticism that most "evidence" for "Jesus" comes from believers.
>
>(If you are truly interested in a "ticket," then follow up on one of
>Jesus' reported claims I noted in my last post.  That is, try out the
>promise that those who seek first God's Kingdom and its righteousness
>will have met their needs for food and clothing.  I'd be sincerely
>interested in your findings.)

I seem to be wearing clothing, and I just ate lunch, so I'm not hungry.  I
also don't believe in Jesus.

If someone who seeks Jesus has food and clothing, and someone who doesn't seek
Jesus has food and clothing, it would appear that seeking Jesus makes no
difference.

It's like saying that if you believe in Jesus you will have ten fingers.  Or
like saying that if you believe in Jesus the sun will appear to rise next
morning.  So what?  It does anyway!

It's certainly true that that isn't "evidence from believers" in the sense
that I don't have to be a believer to check if I have food and clothing, or to
count my fingers, or to look at the sunrise.  But in human discourse there is
generally an implied "not nonsensical"; if I point out that most evidence
requires belief, you can't respond by pointing out _nonsensical_ evidence that
doesn't come from believers.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: QUESTION
Date: 9 Oct 92 22:03:17 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <92283.160218IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>What I want to know is, if Mormonism is a false religion, and
>Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then:
>1) Why is Mormonism one of the fastest growing religions in the world?

Because growth rates don't depend on truth.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18480 alt.atheism:19138
From: tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer)
Subject: Re: Mormons . . . are Polytheists
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:46:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.200025.18320@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes:




>Greetings to the Mormons out there in net-land.  Please 
>examine the Mormon doctrines.  Please test everything to
>see if it's true.  Hold fast to the truth.  I believe, 
>with all my heart, that you follow the wrong Jesus.  
>I know he's a different one that whom I follow.  Please
>follow the real Jesus.  Please follow the one that doesn't
>contradict himself.   Please follow the one that offers
>eternal life and can make good on it.

	This is much improved, you are beginning to say what you mean
	Congrats, 

	you may get the hang of posting yet..


>   "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming
>Gods like himself . . .
>
>   "The Lord has organized mankind for the express purpose
>of increasing in that intelligence and truth, which is with
>God, until he is capable of creating worlds on worlds, and
>becoming Gods, even the sons of God."

>                          Brigham Young

>
>          "This is what the Lord says--
>             Israel's King and Redeemer, the
>                 Lord Almighty:
>           I am the first and I am the last;
>              apart from me there is no God."


>                          Isaiah 44:6

   All well and good,

   Your contention is that LDS worship many Gods (polythesim)

   Other than God the Father whom the LDS worship through his Son Jesus,
   what other God, do you think that the LDS worship?

   And if the LDS don't worship anyother God's can they be termed
   polythesitic.



>
>
>Brian Ceccarelli
>brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu
>
>   


-- 
         Kermit Tensmeyer                         | Intergraph Corporation
Life is sometimes a bowl of Cherries; Watch out for the pits;
   klt@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com                       | 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: skinner@sp94.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Most "evidence" for "Jesus" comes from believers
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 15:27:40 GMT

Isn't it funny how most "evidence" for "Columbus" comes from
believers?  There is a statue of "Columbus" in Barcelona Spain, with
the figure pointing to the New World which he supposedly discovered.
But the figure points toward Africa!

I noted that all the "objective" testimonial evidence Kent Sandvik
gave for Columbus came from believers.  He wrote in response:

>Well, we have even archeological evidence showing the Spaniard presence
>on the island, as well as material Columbus picked from the new world
>back to Spain. Thus an objective person, let say an alien being, would
>logically make a conclusion that Columbus really did the trip.

This evidence comes from "Columbian" archeologists; they believe
Columbus made the voyage.  Their "evidence" tell us someone made the
trip, and can probably give us a date as to when it likely happened.
But as far as I am aware the archeological evidence doesn't directly
tell us who made the trip.  That it was "Columbus" does not logically
follow at this point.

(Perhaps it does follow under system of logic in which a premise is
equivalent to its inverse.  I don't know.  I've never studied such a
logic.)
--
Gregg Skinner       I do not speak for any organization.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Reply-To: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:23:22 GMT


In a previous article, topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) says:

>daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:
>
>>                                             So, to put the question more
>> clearly Richard, if you were a voter in Oregon, would you vote for this
>> initiative?
>
>If what you've quoted is essentially the OCA initiative, I'd vote for it.
>Sounds reasonably moral.  The right to sexual perversion is not quaranteed
>by the Constitution ... or the Bible.
>

That's true...but the right to freedom from hatred is guaranteed by the
constitution...

And about the bible...it's a good thing our government is not based upon it...
Otherwise we'd still have slavery and oppression of women and...


>--
>Tom Albrecht
>
-- 
*...your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist  //  Newsflash from the Vatican: *
*      the KelleyMan:Kelley L. Miller  //  "Easter has been cancelled...*    
*                  ae642@yfn.ysu.edu  //  Someone found the body...."   *
****************Know God...No peace.  No God...Know peace.***************
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:25:34 GMT

In article <ksand-270992130726@wintermute.apple.com>, ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> Let me give you a simple logical hole, Jesus was born by a *virgin*,
> yet it was important to list out his ancestory line from his *father*
> (twice, and they are even different :-) ).
> 
> Is this a logical problem, or slight misunderstanding?
> 
> Cheers,
> Kent

There is a slight misunderstanding.  Mary's lineage was given to show that Jesus
was biologically a descendant of David.  Joseph's lineage was given to show
that Joseph (Jesus' legal father) was a descendant of David.  Are these two
lineages the one's that are suppossedly different?  The reason is, that they are
different, i.e. Mary and Joseph were not sister and brother. This is typical of
the Biblical contradictions that are always spewed out.  In the final analysis
we find that no contradictions exist.
--Ray Cote
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 21:40:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.194939.27265@csrd.uiuc.edu> g-skinner@uiuc.edu writes:
>Ken Arromdee feels that the claim that those who seek first God's
>kingdom and righteousness will not lack food or clothes is trivially
>satisfied.  He compares the effect to the sun rising and humans having
>ten fingers.  Certainly there is a nontrivial difference.  The sun
>rises daily and only a small percentage of humans lack ten fingers,
>but many humans lack daily food or clothing.

You specifically asked _me_ to try it.  You awaited the results of my own
personal test.  Since I already have food and clothes, it's certainly trivial
for you to say "Ken, try seeking God.  If you do it, you'll have food and
clothes when you're done", when I already do.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 10 Oct 1992 12:12:06 EDT
From: <IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Would like to talk with LDS members...

Hi!  I'd like to talk with fellow LDS members, because I have
alot of questions to ask!  Could you please e-mail me?
Thanks!---------------------Andie.