HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: this year's rafts
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:41:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears) writes:
> 
> 	The Avons are overpriced, it's true, but they're kind boats
> 	(i.e. if you're a guide, get your company to buy them.)

I'd be interested to know why you say this.

In my experience, a self-bailing Avon Adventurer flips in hydraulics
just as easily, or more easily, than a 14' Sotar.  It's true, a Sotar
flips more easily when bashed diagonally against a rock, but this is
simply because it is stiffer.  The upside of this characteristic is
that a Sotar wraps less easily (although to be fair, a self-bailing
Adventurer is much harder to wrap than any non-self-bailer).

Also, the Adventurer is kind of a pig.  Not as bad as a 14' Hyside
or Riken Miwok (Rikens seem to be the worst), but still much harder
to move across the river than a 14' Sotar or (better yet) Maravia
Williwaw I.  And forget about pivoting in tight quarters!  The tube
tracking and inline I-beam floor defeat a crew's best efforts.  (But
of course make for fast boating in flatwater.)

Furthermore, a self-bailing Adventurer seems to surf big holes more
readily than any other boat.  This might be considered fun, but is
not a good trait for commercial boating.  In a wide range of scary
holes-- Clavey (T'), Dominator (Giant Gap), Maytag (N Yuba)-- I've
seen Adventurers circling without crew long after Sotars have been
spit out, often with most of their crew intact.

On the plus side, the self-bailing floor with no lacing is nice-- no
webbing to mildew.  The new NRS boats (hecho en Mexico) also offer
this feature.  The downside is that if the floor goes, you have to
get a new one glued in.  Also, Avons track well in flatwater, and
are thus good boats for running the Grand Canyon.

The biggest minus, and one I'm surprised commercial outfitters are
apparently unconcerned about, is the material.  Unlike Hysides or
Sotars, which use knitted base fabric, Avon's base fabric is woven.
This means when it rips, it tears.  What will be a small leak in the
other boats often turns into a meter-long tear in the Avon.  Try to
tear patch material sometime.  You'll be able to tear the gray Avon
material easily, but I doubt you'll be able to get far with Hyside
or Sotar material.
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 14 Apr 92 22:20:35 GMT
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO


In article 6531@colorado.edu, zulauf@csn.org (Mike Zulauf) writes:
>     Ah yes, that reminds me.  In my original post, I forgot to ask if
>all the boats I should consider are plastic (polyuerethane?).  Are only
>the more expensive boats fiberglass?  What are the advantages of fiberglass
>over plastic?  What are the advantages of plastic over fiberglass?
>
>                          Thanks,
>                                 Mike Zulauf
>                                 zulauf@orbit.colorado.edu
>

Glass = fiberglass, kevlar &/| spectra.

The basic differences are performance vs. cost.  After I decided
that the dancer sucks, I sold it and bought a slalom boat (3/4"
removed from height of boat in stern to reduce volume, making
it squirtable).  I love it.  I own one plastic boat for creek
bashing, and a high volume glass boat for Class V.

- Both plastic & glass last about the same length of time,
  and can both usually be repaired (depending on extent
  of damage).  Life expectancy varies depending on use,  I
  get about 5 seasons out of a boat.

- Glass boats out-perfrom plastic in cornering & speed.  I can
  catch waves on the fly, that I cannot catch in a plastic boat.
  I can sink the tail of my slalom boat and spin 360 degrees
  instantly. 

		Plastic			Glass
		-------------------------------------------------------
Cost (new)	$700-800		$1000-1400
Weight		35-50 lbs		22-30 lbs

--Chris

p.s. Any inaccuracies are due to too much LSD (so keep flames to a min). ;-)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Organization: Foo
	<LEE.92Apr7155749@meercat.wang.com>
	<1992Apr7.215235.5647@ncar.ucar.edu>
	<1992Apr7.222228.2057@solbourne.com>
Distribution: na
Date: 8 Apr 92 09:49:14

In article <1992Apr7.222228.2057@solbourne.com> broome@solbourne.com (Bob Broome) writes:


    You can also be a support boat on extended trips for those crazy
   Kayakers who drink all your beer and eat all your steaks.

on a westwater trip a couple of years back, one rafter was seriously
ragging on kayakers.  we let him swirl around with the garbage in the
room o' doom for a little while before we hauled his sorry carcass out.

;->

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: smoak@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Wilson Smoak)
Subject: Re: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 00:09:31 GMT

smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay) writes:
: Somebody writes:
: 
: 	" She wisely chose to swim, rather than scrape her
: head thru a strainer drop.  She easily made it to shore and walked down
: to pick up her boat.  Rolling is nice in theory, but..."
:                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: 
: Rolling is even better in practice. There are bloody few situations where

Rolling is MUCH better in pratice!!  It is especially true if you plan to
paddle difficult water; you know something that has rocks and holes 
in it ;^).  

This rolling is NICE in theory  goes right along with the person that
said being able to catch edies is not important.   

If you plan to try any of the better Southeastern rivers (Chatooga
section IV, Chauga, Wilson Creek, even the Ocoee, or Upper Green) 
you had better be able to roll and catch those eddies.

Even if you're not running anything like the Green, being able
to catch eddies an rolling are extremely valuable skills.  A good strong
brace is equally valuable.


Wilson  nnc


Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: ddennis@isis.cs.du.edu (Dave Dennis)
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 04:46:08 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.225627.10799@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
> > For multi-day trips rafts are great.  However falling out of a raft in
> > Cherry Creek or Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.
> > 
>
>Being *in* a raft in Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.
>

Heyyyyyy... I've run Gore AND Cherry creek in both rafts and duckies...
it ain't that bad!  (not that I haven't spent a minute or two using my
PFD as a boat in both!)

If you folks run Gore, email me... a few of us are running it till it 
gets over 1500... Cross Mountain too.  Have a few kayakers, could 
always use more!

Dave 
--
|Dave Dennis  (ddennis@nyx.cs.du.edu)      |
|"Ilegitimi non carbarundum"               |
|What I say is what *I* say!               |
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: New Corsica
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:24:01 GMT

I have had my Corsica for two seasons (second boat).  I pretty much
like it, but it was what it is, and that is a dog.  I use it for steep creek
boating and I have problems catching eddies on the fly (i.e. new river,
trying to eddy scout), you need time to set up for the eddy.  It does
turn on a dime, matter of fact it turns so well that I've been blown
off course.  It surfs well, and bulldozes through holes.  It is heavy,
so if you think you will be doing long portages on self-sustained trips
(Black Canyon Gunnison), find something else.

--Chris
From: root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: Re: New Corsica (Actually Corsica S)
Summary: I like it!
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 14:56:46 GMT

Sorry for the "me too" post; I tried to mail this but the mail bounced.

Here's my $0.02's worth on the Corsica S.  I'm 5'7" and weight about 147
lbs.  For my size and my type of paddling, the Corsica S is just about
perfect.  I paddled a Dancer for a couple of years, switched to a Reflex
for a year, and have been paddling the Corsica S for a year and a half.

It's an excellent play boat.  It's easy to keep the bow from pearling
while front surfing.  It side surfs well, although I find that it bounces
more than a Dancer, and sometimes takes a bit more work to get out of a
hole.  It's the best boat for enders that I have ever paddled.  It's very
forgiving, something I especially appreciated during my first trip down
the Upper Gauley last fall.

It's also very good for tight and steep stuff.  I haven't done anything
steeper than the Tellico in Tennessee, but it fits into tiny eddies, and
boofs easily without much tendency to bury its bow.  Many of the serious
creekers like it for stuff like the Green Narrows and Overflow Creek.

On the other hand, the boat is SLOW.  If you drop back past the crest of
the wave while surfing, you may as well give up rather than trying to
paddle back over the crest.  You can attain rapids, but it takes a lot
of work.  It's a pain on flat water.

I've also paddled a Crossfire a few times.  The Crossfire has more volume
in the bow, less in the stern, and lots more rocker.  It may be faster that
the Corsica S, but it doesn't track nearly as well.  It is is great at
getting backenders (sometimes when you don't want them!).  I must admit
that I like Dagger's outfitting better than Perception's.  (I've looked at
Proline boats, but I really can't comment on them.  I did put the bulkhead
footbrace in my Corsica S, however.)

I've never paddled a Matrix or a Freefall.

Barry Shelton
barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com

I do not speak for my employer; I speak only for myself.
From: sasayb@caneel.unx.sas.com (Andy Barnhart)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: RE: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater canoing
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:16:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: unx.1992Apr7.131632.27658
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: sasayb@caneel.unx.sas.com
X-Bytes: 1193

In response to Bill's question of why anyone would want to canoe
when a canoe is not tremendously well suited to whitewater:

The challenge! Yes it's more difficult then kayaking, and kayaking is more
difficult and time consuming than driving the shuttle, so why do that (to
take your point a bit further)? you're probably going to get a few replies
claiming the advances in canoing have made it as good a choice as a kayak
for whitewater, but not from me. I'll concede your point that kayaking is
easier (twice the paddle; half the paddler) having done both. It's really
tough to roll one (damn near impossible with my 17 footer), but some people
prefer to work without a net.

The hauling capacity. For multi day trips, it loads and unloads easier
and carrries more.

The flat stretches. You can sit up in the seat, stretch your legs out, 
bend your knees, get something out of the cooler (does your boat have
a cooler, Bill?), maybe pull out the fly rod and cast a bit.

Utility. It would be nice if I could buy a different toy for each activity
that I enjoy, but I just can't justify it. But I did not have to do without
a fishing boat (for two people and gear) to have a whitewater boat.
From: smay@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:27:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

In a canoe, the river(s)  one has wired in a kayak become challenging again.
Why not just paddle harder water? Sometimes it's not available, sometimes
the people one is paddling with aren't capable of or interested in more
difficult water, sometimes one is not personally interested in more difficult
water. Also, less directed paddlers may find it fun to learn a new skill.

I bought an open boat in an attempt to make drought years more interesting. I
was torn between a squirt boat and an open boat--being a lower flash kind of
person, I went for the open boat. (Also being a lower pain threshold kind of
guy...).

 In kayak, I was getting the local V's wired (more or frequently less)
and was running into conflict with my wife who gets little psychic income
paddling class V. I hoped the canoe would allow us to paddle together without
making it a sacrifice for either of us. This has not worked so well, mainly
because the play spots are pretty different (perhaps the problem is my
lower skill level in an open boat). I'm thinking of getting a C-1 as a better
compromise. But even if I do, I'll keep the open boat. There are some fabulous
sensations in the open boat. Plus, you can frequently amaze even kayakers with your skill, daring and survival.

cheers,
scott smay
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: sasjcs@canoe.unx.sas.com (Joan Stout)
Subject: Re: Southeastern Rivers
    <1992Apr10.161015.14380@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:20:29 GMT
Originator: sasjcs@canoe.unx.sas.com
X-Bytes: 719

In article <1992Apr10.161015.14380@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM () writes:
|> BTW, rumor has it that Bob Benner's son David is updating Bob's "Carolina
|> Whitewater."  David is into steep creeks, so the new edition should have
|> lots of interesting info.  Anyone able to confirm this?
|>

Bob Benner *is* updating CAROLINA WHITEWATER, and he is very close to
finishing it. Bob's son, David, is indeed into creek boating and other
hair runs, and the book includes sections written by David about these
rivers/creeks. However, it is still very much Bob's book. Bob Benner is
a paddling buddy of mine, and this information comes straight from the
"horse's mouth."

Joan Stout
sasjcs@unx.sas.com
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: No Defense of Motors, was Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:32:48 GMT

In article <9APR199205295074@jetson.uh.edu>, rcte4@jetson.uh.edu 
  (Carpenter, Scot M.) writes:
 > 
 >       Rafts:	Mom and Pop in the wild water.  Ever the elitist, I sneered
 >       at the idea of (shudder) GASOLINE OUTBOARD MOTORS on the grand canyon,
 >       but then I thought about it this way...if we had no mechanism for 
 >       out of shape (or handicapped) people to experience the canyon in 3 
 >       to 5 days (their alloted/affordable vacation), they would never 
 >       experience it except as the hordes that stare over the edge from 
 >       Bright Angel lodge, with cocktail in hand.
 > 
 >       Rafts, and don't forget the other big-water rigs like the snouts and
 >       Georgie's 3 raft gonzo rigs, open up the river for a lot of folks that
 >       what otherwise sit at home watching Wheel of Fortune and think "Why
 >       should I worry about the X River or Canyon?"

I deleted a lot, sorry.  But I think that out-of-shape, elderly, and 
handicapped people can ride on a guided oar raft almost as easily as on 
a pig-boat.  With a nice self-bailing boat, all they have to do is sit 
and read their romance novels, and occasionally look up at the scenery, 
just like the people we saw on pig-boats did.  They can take out at
Phantom Ranch and ride mules up for a 7-day trip.  Hell, I'll even 
concede the helipad downriver of Lava.

We did see older people on commercial oar rafts.  They looked like 
they were enjoying themselves.  

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR MOTORBOATS IN THE GRAND CANYON.  Accessibility
arguments, when taken too far, destroy what we are trying to make
accessible.  Should we go to Rocky Mountain National Park and pave a
road up Long's Peak?  Put a tramway up Half Dome?

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DOD#009 | Hello, I am a rocket scientist, are there any
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | more cajun-flavored pork rinds?
      \_______________________|______________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:57:49


(Bill Tuthill) writes:
   [...]
   So could somebody please tell me why people continue using canoes
   in whitewater?

Alright, I'm a kayaker who paddles A LOT with open canoists
and admire their style, so I'll give it a shot.

Because it's a traditional craft (believe me, I'd rather run class V
in a stripper than lashed into an eskimo kayak).  Because it's harder
to roll (not a whole lot though, in the newer solo whitewater designs).
Because you have a lousy offside brace unless you're insanely good, and
it's hard to get the paddle there in time anyways.  Because you can
carry a good first aid kit and huge lunches (so why is it that I end
up carrying open boaters' lunches down the Kennebec in my Vampire---kid
you not).

   If challenge is the most important reason, why not
   just run harder whitewater?

I've run the Upper Gauley and the Upper Yough with one other kayaker
and up to five open boats (mostly XL-13s).  There's a limit to how
hard water I'll run regularly in _anything_!  Open boats are in some
ways harder to handle without particularly being more dangerous.

In some ways they're easier to handle---you can stand up in shallows
and pick your way through (ever try poling a kayak?)  Visibility is
better and draft is usually a bit less.  Despite being larger, they
can actually be easier in some technical rapids.

C'mon---lets hear some comments from some real open boaters!

What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.  Sure, they're great rescue
devices if you're on a sinking steamship (sometimes even in a
river---but what was the steamship doing there?), but they don't play
well, they're hard to hit eddies with and hard to turn, people keep
falling out, you either get swiped in the head with oar handles or
someone drops their paddle, and a good hard boater can run anything
that a raft can (okay, we'll cheat a bit on the biggest holes, but
make up for it in precision)....
--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
     (Boston and New Hampshire AMC, and Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:18:43 GMT
	<1992Apr14.222035.7693@ncar.ucar.edu>
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.


I think Chris overemphasized the cost factor between polyethylene and
fiberglass-or-kevlar layup.  Right now a new glass boat is usually more
expensive, but used ones are often cheaper.  Three things that I do think
merit emphasis:

 * Even the heaviest layup on a glass boat is more fragile than poly
   (particularly, it isn't layered, so won't separate when bashed into
   rocks).

 * It's vastly easier (but still work) to repair a glass boat, or even
   a kevlar boat, than a poly one.  If you really split plastic
   (especially crosslinked poly) apart, it's a goner; with glass, it's
   a couple evenings' work to have (some sort of) a boat again.

 * Even light and flexible kevlar layups are stiffer than more poly
   boats (the Prijons and some of the new crosslink Dagger boats may
   actually be stiffer than a very light racing layup, though).
   Stiffer usually means better feel on the water.  (This shouldn't be
   much of a concern except for quite advanced boaters, though.)

Chris writes:

- Glass boats out-perfrom plastic in cornering & speed.  I can
  catch waves on the fly, that I cannot catch in a plastic boat.
  I can sink the tail of my slalom boat and spin 360 degrees
  instantly. 

Yup.  But cornering?  Well, pivoting is sort of cornering, and I'd
agree with Chris there---it hasn't been possible so far to make a
really fine squirt stern in poly that would hold its shape (Perception
made many prototypes).  As far as sharp "edged" eddy turns are
concerned, it's hard to beat some of the small creek boats (Corsica S,
Freefall, Screamin' Meany) whether they're plastic or glass.

I think speed is mostly a function of hull shape (and polish), to some
extent stiffness (ability to retain the hull shape) and weight (if it's
lighter, you can push it faster AND it doesn't displace as much water).
Materials affect speed only on these counts; speed is so dominated by
hull shape that you'd only notice the difference over a timed course
(e.g., racing).

The polyethylene semi-squirt boats aren't much compared to a
"glass" one (compare the Sabre with the Vampire!), and as far as I know
no one bothers to make a full 13'2" slalom boat in plastic (it wouldn't
be competitive---closest is the Reflex, a shortened plastic Foxfire).

   p.s. Any inaccuracies are due to too much LSD (so keep flames to a min). ;-)

Gee, Chris, the stuff we used thirty years ago wasn't flammable---are you
sure you're not getting a cheap imitation?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
              (Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:56:27 GMT
Organization: NCAR/UCAR

In article <1992Apr7.221502.7540@ncar.ucar.edu>, chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster) writes:
 > 
 > For multi-day trips rafts are great.  However falling out of a raft in
 > Cherry Creek or Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.
 > 

Being *in* a raft in Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.

Hey Chris, don't badmouth rafts or we won't carry your gear anymore. :-)
PS any news on that Selway permit?

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DOD#009 | Hello, I am a rocket scientist, are there any
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | more cajun-flavored pork rinds?
      \_______________________|______________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle