From: seo@capone.ccsm.uiuc.edu (Jong-Wook Seo)
Subject: Re: Don't Preach! (I : "Orange-Jok" Economy)
Organization: Microelectronics Lab - Univ. of Illinios
Distribution: soc.culture.korean
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:47:28 GMT

Okay!  I got some time to reply your posting.
Here, I am going to follow your way of posting little bit.


In article <1992Dec15.194211.18814@tc.cornell.edu>,
jfe@alchemy.tn.cornell.edu (Brian Chung) writes :

>        Urban problems are everywhere, so what?  The original poster
>implied that urban problems were limited to Korea.  We just kindly
>pointed out that this is not so.
>        Yes.
Here, by saying 'we', you are making some other people in your 'we' to be 
the same kind with you, a person with questionable honesty and sincerity.
Which part of the original post, "the original poster implied that urban 
problems were limited to Korea."
For your convenience, I put your original post which also has 'the 
original post' by Woncheal Choi.

......In article <gf_pbyG00XsL8QN0RO@andrew.cmu.edu> wc1q+@andrew.cmu.edu 
......(Woncheal Choi) writes:
......>The problem is that they affect to other people and contaminate normal
......>people's ethics.  It is different between rich people in US who spend a
......>lot and do whatever they want, and OJs who are doing the same thing in
......>Korea.  Korea is more compacted society.  How far is the 'Rodeo street'
......>in Ap-ku-jung-dong from Sa-dang-dong 'Pan-ja chon' ?  Even though the
......>number of OJ is small but their influence is not negligible. It's like
......>having  a diseased chicken in a chicken coop.  Their influence can be
......>shown as a simple example.

......	How far is the Rodeo St. in Beverly Hills from South Central LA?
......How far is the Fifth Ave. in NY from East Harlem?  Urban problems are
......everywhere.

Please, do not insult the person who has a sweet and warm heart to 
consider the people who are struggling in Korean "Pan-Ja-Chon", the person 
who posted his idea in a very well organized form unlike yours.
I think he doesn't need your obsolete cynical 'kindness'.
Anyway, I'll be waiting for your another 'kind' enlightenment, the answer 
for above question.

Let me remind you of your words.
You said :
>        Kwangyl, please read what I wrote above.  You haven't understood
>a single thing I have said.  And frankly, I'm getting sick of your twisting
>my words to suit your purpose.  If you have a problem with my attitude,
>let's take it to e-mail and save some bandwidth.
Please, keep in mind.

>        Any problem America has can be in other society because urban
>problems are not just a local matter.  The same applies to drug, 
>prostitution, crime, homelessness, etc.  It's not that we want to
>have these problems in our cities, but it's just that these problems
>are inevitable in the development of a urban civilization.  What's
>important is how we are going to solve them.
Very well said, especially the last part.
With this idea in mind, could you please explain what the first sentence 
means?
I need what exactly you mean by "....because urban problems are not just a 
local matter."
I imagine that is exactly what I want to say.
I mean it is an integral part of a society.
So, we care about the people in "Pan-Ja-Chon".

>>Now, under this circumstance, the money made under unfair tax policy 
>>should be 'persuaded' to reinvest in reproduction, NOT to 'buy whatever 
>>they want'.
>>How?
>>The only way is just by publicizing their wrong lifestyle whenever they 
>>forget this.
>>This is how your 'motherland' is doing to rebuild her economy.
>>This is how the country with full of 'stupid' people who don't even know 
>>how the f*** important the cultural diversity is has increased its 
>>national economic size by 98 times last three decades.
>>They, our people, are not stupid like you dare to insult to be so.
>>They have been living really hard time to develop national economy, not to 
>>learn what the individualism is about.

>        No, Korea increased it's national economy by conducting
>rigorous dirigist export-led growth, coupled with forced savings.  Not
>by making rich kids spend their money on "reproduction (sic)". 
Here, I think you don't know much about the Korean economic policy, 
especially in 3rd republic.
If you don't agree to my claim, it's okay to start to discuss about it.

>Besides, do you actually think publicizing one's lifestyle will force them to
>change their spending habit?  That'll be the day.
By continuously telling her people that the communists have brought most 
of the wars in this century, America finally made her people like you to 
believe so.
That is the power of the journalism.

One more thing!
By publicizing the so-called "Orange-Jok" (I put a condition "whenever they 
forget this" to imply this.), we want to achieve two things.
One thing is to provide some healing catharsis to the people who were 
alienated from the economic development.
(Some stupid rich people may say "Why do they have to be sacrificed for 
poor people?"
The reason why I call the rich people who say so stupid is that the other 
option is revolution or continuing physical struggle with the poor people 
for them.
Which one would you choose if you were rich (maybe you are already rich)?
Of course, we are struggling to approach the solution, reasonably fair 
flexible society.
Please, do not ask me whether it is possible to achieve that kind of 
society.
That is another story, and a long story.
However, situation is getting better politically and economically.
Last year, 90 percent of economy growth went to 1 percent of the 
population in America.
However, it is better than that in Korea.)

Another thing is to encourage and refresh the ethics of work and 'spending 
habit' of majority of Korean people.
The real target is not those "diseased chickens in a chicken coop" as 
mentioned by another person.
Do you think those useless pay any attention to the critics of the public?
Do you think those Orange-Jok even read a news paper?
(I got a feeling that some people do not even know what kind of people are 
named as Orange-Jok. They are not simply the normal people who enjoy 
"Ap-Goo-Jung" business area. If you need specific definition of 
"Orange-Jok", please refer the 'special champaign' in Korea Times.)
Do you want to know whether it works?
It works for above mentioned purpose.
If you want to know supporting evidence, I can tell you.

>>SO, your simple story doesn't apply in Korea.
>>No way!
>>The money they have is not only theirs, but also people's.
>>That is what the social contract is all about.
>>That is the blood and tears of our people, forty million Korean people.
>>They don't deserve spending they money in Chicago to trickle down to a 
>>person who later claimed that he 'hasn't walked on Korean street since 
>>long time ago'.
>>There will never been trans-Pacific tour to Chicago in near future until 
>>our society finishes the establishment and the redistribution of our 
>>wealth among our people in reasonable extent.
>>No way!

>        Now, now, let's not get too emotional here.  Blood and tears...
I am sorry, you are right!
BLOOD, SWEAT, and TEAR.
Thanks.

>I'm all for social contract and a welfare state, but let's not go
>overboard here.  My money is my money if I earned it legally.  If the
>government wants to tax me to spend on social issues, that's fine.
We are struggling to establish a better society where tax politics really 
works.
But, people like you opposes it or don't know the necessity.
(You know what I mean.
I am talking about you willingness to wait 5 more years simply because Kim 
Dae-Joong is not 'any better than' Kim Young-Sam.
Remember that story?
Actually, many people gave wonderful explanations about what the 
real-name-account is and how important it is for us to achieve.
Many times!

>But I won't give up my money willingly because someone tells me that
>the money I earned with my blood and tears (if you'll excuse me for
>borrowing that expression) doesn't belong to me. 
I didn't say that the money doesn't belong to the person who made, did I?
I said :
          "The money they have is not only theirs, but also people's."
Please read it again.

>        As for Chicago is concerned, that was a J-O-K-E.  No need
>to say anything else.
If it wasn't J-O-K-E, I wouldn't have quoted it.
Since it is joke, it brings the meaning which I quoted.
If I don't think it is joke, I would rather say "Oh! My fellow netter, I 
am so sorry that we can not be your hope at this moment. Don't be 
discouraged. Please do not collapse. I am sure things will go well."
Understand?
'No need to say anything else.'

 
>>I don't care how much 'individualistic' you are.
>>Who cares?

>        There, you just took your first step towards individualism. :)
That is the main reason why I put the title "Don't Preach!" while I 
expected to face a cheap counterattack saying "You are preaching" sort of.
We took more than just a 'first step' toward individualism.
Although, I don't know where we are in American standard.
So, we don't need you 'kind' enlightenment about how good it is as in 
America.

>>but, I care about the same thing in Korea for the guys who shouldn't 
>>forget they are NOT individuals.

>        Well, that's a pity, then.  I don't like living with a 
>hive mentality.  I'm a human being, not an ant or a bee or a Borg.
That is the only reason why I am replying your posting.
Right! You are a human being.
So, you know how to live in a certain society under a necessary harmony.
Why your American public pay 30 percent tax, while some people are getting 
welfare checks without doing anything for you?
The reason is that you are NOT a simple individual.
You are a member of this society.
And, each society has its own way of living.
That is the real individualism, I think.
(If you don't agree, forget it.)

>>By telling you an episode I was involved in, I am going to ask about this.
>>Once, one of my American friends asked about a Korean man who he knows 
>>somehow.
>>He asked how rich he is.
>>(The Korean man gave him an impression to be rich, I guess.)
>>I said he is very rich.
>>He asked how can a student be that rich.
>>I answered that his farther is rich.
>>My wonderful friend, however, did not understand the concept.
>>Within my understanding, that is the typical American ethics.
>>(As long as in public.
>>The reason why I put this 'redundant' stuff is what has been said by you 
>>is about ethics, not the personal reality.)

>        I'd go and check your American friend.  Surely he's heard of
>the Carnegies, Rockefellers, Fords, etc.  
Your kind.
Come here, I'll introduce them. (Not just a J-O-K-E.)
They are typical people from the American middle class.
From them, I have learned a lot about the beauty and the power of the 
American middle class.
My research area, semiconductor microelectronics, provides a relatively 
intensive environment for co-work.
So, I think I have spent much time with them compared to some other areas.
I have learned about their proud, their love to America, and their worry.
(Amazingly enough, they know and understand outside world much better than 
CNN, ABC, CBS,....)
But, I also know that it's far away from being able to dare to say that I 
know some.

>Without going to such extremes,
>it is more common than you think for the Americans to be rich thanks
>to a large inheritance.  
Okay!  Now, I found which America you are talking about.


>Brian "Decaf?" Chung

>-- 
>T. H. Brian Chung                      | Happiness is...              
>Internet: jfe@alchemy.tn.cornell.edu   | "Tea, Earl Grey, hot."
>Bitnet: jfe@cornella                   | 210 Lake St. Apt. 11-A 
>DECnet: CESR10::THC                    | Ithaca, NY 14850  Tel: 
607-272-1543 


One more question.
In the reply to Bark Kwangyl's posting, you writes :

>        And those who do not like rock n roll are free to speak out.  
>That's why we have this wonderful thing called Usenet.  So, now, tell me,
>do *you* find Korean pop music more intelligent than American/British
>music?  That was my original complaint, I would like your opinion.
What do you mean by 'more intelligent'?
Anyway, what is the intelligent music all about?


Nice time.


Jong-Wook Seo


ps : I think I remember that you said you are going to leave to visit 
     Korea soon.
     So, I'll also send this to you through e-mail for your later convenience.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean