HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pksuk@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Peter K. Suk)
Subject: Re: hard and soft sf
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 20:07:50 EST

In article <1992Dec9.045111.24889@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> 
rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:

>In article <1992Dec8.143718.21329@newstand.syr.edu> pksuk@rodan.acs.syr.edu
>(Peter K. Suk) writes: 
>
>>Granted, there are absolute limits to how fast we can go, and how old we
>>can live to and how strong we can build a spaceship hull.  But we don't
>>_always_ have to include that in our fiction, do we? The key concern her
>>I think is the distortion of people's notion of science...
>
>I'll second the motion, and add to it.
[deleted]
>there's the hard sf where the author sticks strictly to what is known to be
>possible today.  While this stuff can be very entertaining (at least I like it
>:), defending it as the only good sf is absurd.
>
>Go back 100 years, and try to explain that you can wipe cities off the map by
>slapping a couple of pieces of metal together...
[lots of incredible stuff deleted]
>
>So if you write sf, and if it is set more than say 50 years into the future,
>and if it does not contain at least some things that are so outrageous
[deleted]
>you can be absolutely sure that your sf is totally, fatally, laughably wrong.
[deleted]

A really good point.  Still, I don't quite agree with your
extrapolation.  Our attitiude toward science has changed a lot in the
past 1000 years with our becoming an increasingly technological
society.  Folks 25 years back weren't quite used to the degree of
change that we are.  50 or 100 years even less so.  I think that
today, we are a little too used to change and hence, a little too
ready to believe that we'll be shown to be utterly wrong or
shortsighted.  But if truth be told, a lot of us are NOT so
shorsighted anymore.  If anything we're getting a little farsighted.

Also, the very best science stands up to the test of time.  Take, for example,
_statics_, developed by Archimedes, and Newton's _dynamics_. In addition,
note that some of the best predictive science fiction was very firmly based
in the science of the time (i.e. Clarke's communications sattelites.  Jules
Verne's submarine.)

And lastly, one can stick to today's science in as rigorous a way as 
possible and _still_ come up with stuff that will get you commited.
Take, for example, Eric Drexler's "nanotechnology."  (i.e. Within 100
years, we're all going to be practically immortal, wealthy beyond the
dreams of avarice, and exploring space, or WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!
AAAAAAAUUGH!!!!!)  THAT stuff, in the right time and place can get
you commited for sure, yet it's as firmly based in known science
as anything.  

So go ahead and have fun with genetically engineered dragons the size
of 727's and indestructible hulls.  Just be aware that predicting the
future (or even capturing its spirit) is a LOT harder than extrapolating
by outrageousness.  

	--Peter Kwangjun Suk


Organization: Center for Machine Translation, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 11:04:42 -0500 
From: John Robert Leavitt <jl3j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Silly Time Travel

Joel Polowin writes:

>In article <9212171631.A01589@mailer.nymc.edu> goldberg@NYMC.EDU (RANDY_GOLDBERG) writes:
>
>>From: duru@cc.ec-lyon.fr (Duru Emmanuel)
>>Subject: 'silly' timetravel: it's again me...
>>
>>* the title of del Rey's story title may be "I am Legion"
>>
>>Isn't "My Name Is Legion" the title of Richard Matheson's book about the
>> last human man on an Earth full of vampires?
>
>Something like that, yes.  But it's also the title of the Del Rey story,
>which you can find in _The Early Del Rey_.  I presume that the title is
>a quotation from some classical source, though I'm not sufficiently
>literate to recognise it.
>
>Joel Polowin

It's biblical.  From the King James Version:

{Mark 5:9}
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name
is Legion: for we are many.


They are talking about some guy who is possessed by a whole slew of demons,
hence the "we are many" aspect of things.

-John.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.startrek.tech
From: pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk)
Subject: Re: Territorial Disputes
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.startrek.tech
Organization: Adhocracy of Enlightened Self-Interest, Research
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 19:22:57 EST

In article <BzCrwD.LLK@brunel.ac.uk> 
mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:

>In article <1992Dec14.195008.5521@newstand.syr.edu>
>pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk) writes:
>
>>In article <Bz5JpH.BLx@brunel.ac.uk> 
>>mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>>
>>>Want to bet the 'Kzinti' get 'enlightened' well before the other two?
>>
>>This is a very good point.  Macro-life "expansion" will be very much
>>faster than the traditional colonizing gambit.  Such squeezes will
>>encourage species to do this.
>
>Actually, I was just being sarcastic, but I see now that what you are
>describing (as pointed out by another poster, whose name I can't find now)
>is the birth of the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and British empires.  Bear
>in mind, though, that there is nothing to stop parts of a macrolife civ
>from 'going poshrat' as soon as it finds itself in empty territory.  This

Boredom?  Seriously.  Given relativistic effects, couldn't a member of
a Macro-Life civ expect to see dozens of alien races in a lifetime?

What you are describing is more along the lines of 'cheating.'

	--Peter Kwangjun Suk
From: rfm@urth.eng.sun.com (Richard McAllister)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Hall of Mirrors
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:57:11
Organization: /home/cici/rfm/.organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: urth
In-reply-to: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com's message of 9 Dec 92 04:09:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.040938.23078@crd.ge.com> kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:

   [Original citation lost...]
   >> I am looking for 'silly' time travel stories, such as a short story by
   >> Heinlein, whose American title escapes me here. In this story, there is a
   >> character which is in the same time his father, his mother,.. (he is a

   I believe the desired story title is "All You Zombies"

Yes.  A better title would have been "By His Bootstraps" but RAH had
already used that one...

Rich

--
Rich McAllister (rfm@eng.sun.com)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: denebeim@brtph254.bnr.ca (Jay Denebeim P025)
Subject: Re: A Million Open Doors
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:11:33 GMT

In article <9212171315.AA09390@rutgers.edu> MARTHA@brlncc.BITNET ("Martha C. Motta da Silva ") writes:
>And dougr@jerod.cna.tek.com (Doug Basmussen) replied (forgive me for not
>quoting) to him referring to a TV series called "the Starlost" . It was ,
>he said , based on a work by Harlan Ellison . The plot was about an ark
>from Earth that had undergone some sort of accident (and consequently had
>also lost much of their origins). Because of that it happened a
>"splitting" of different cultures and they were explored by a young man.
>This is , of course , a very brief (and badly done) account of his
>description of the series ; I haven't watched it myself .

You did quite well.  I recall enjoying it quite a bit. Very low budget
like Dr. Who.  Typical British style TV SF.  It was Canadian, and
stared Kerr Dulley (SP?) of 2001 fame.

>Well , as soon as I read this message I remembered reading a short story
>by Robert A. Heinlein that had a similar plot . I don't remember its name

The story is called 'Universe' and its anthologized fairly often.  I'm
sure you'll find it in 'The Science Fiction Hall of Fame' either in
vol 1 (short stories, 'The Roads Must Roll' was also in this one), or
vol 2 a or b (novellas/novellettes), I can't recall which one, at a
guess I'd say its in volume 2a, but check them all out.  By the way,
these books are excellent.  If you're interested in golden age SF from
the 20's to the 50's these two books collect the stories SFWA thought
should have won nebulas if they had existed at the time :-)

By the way, this generation ship out of control story line is fairly
common. I've read at least two or three short novels about it.  Harry
Harrison, I believe, wrote another one called 'Captive Universe'.
That one was strange in that it was NOT out of control, the launchers
set up a rather bizzare system so that this would not happen.  Its an
OK story, you might want to try it out too.
-- 
Jay Denebeim     Address: UUCP:     duke!wolves!deepthot!jay
                          Internet: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us
                 BBS:(919)-460-7430      VOICE:(919)-460-6934
From: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: RE: TERRITORIAL DISPUTES
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:35:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Brentwood BBS Harrison, NY  914-835-7898
Reply-To: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 

-> I think THIS supports my theory.  For one thing, Bussard Ramjets look
-> MUY infeasible.  For another thing, the universe will be a very
-> unfriendly place for this race.

That depends.  Historically, the discoverer tends to be much more
advanced in technology than the discovered.  And much of what we have in
high technology is a DIRECT spinoff of research initiated for war and
defense.  I think it would be foolish and impractical to believe that
merely because a race has spread to the stars, they have given up their
warlike ways.  Why should star travelers be any different from world
dwellers?  We have covered the globe and have more misery, violence,
pestulence and death than ever.  I don't think geography changes our
intrinsic nature as beings.  We'll still be humans wherever we go.

J
                                                                                            
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: A Million Open Doors 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:34:04 +0000

In article <9212171315.AA09390@rutgers.edu> MARTHA@brlncc.BITNET writes:

>Well , as soon as I read this message I remembered reading a short story
>by Robert A. Heinlein that had a similar plot . I don't remember its name
>(I have a terrible memory for stories' names) but I do know it was an
>early work of RAH because it was in an anthology edited in the 50's . All I

[rest of description deleted]

As soon as I read *your* message I thought "Orphans of the Sky by
Heinlein" <g>.  I don't know about it being a short story - my copy is a
complete book.  Perhaps it was published as a short and then expanded?
I'm afraid that my copy is missing at the moment (i.e. buried somewhere
in the house <g>)...

>By the way , does anyone know the names of the books in the Narnia series by
>C.S.Lewis ? I read the first one ("The Lion , the witch and the wardrobe")
>a long time ago and was never able to find the others . Someone told me
>there are five or six other books in this series and I'd like to know .
>Thanks in advance for any information .

Now *these* I have.  In internal chronological order (not order of
publishing), they are:

1 The Magician's Nephew
2 The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe
3 The Horse And His Boy
4 Prince Caspian
5 The Voyage Of The Dawn Treader
6 The Silver Chair
7 The Last Battle

(3) actually fits in just before the end of (2) - it's parallel.

The books are available (at least here in Britain) in a boxed set - I
don't know the price, but they're paperbacks.  I've never seen hardcover
editions...  Let me know if you want the ISBN/publisher details (after
Christmas <g>).  My copies were published as a set in 1965, and cost
3/6d (3 shillings and 6 pence, or UK pounds 0.175) each...

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: hard and soft sf
Date: 17 Dec 92 00:48:12 GMT
Organization: nope

>In article <1992Dec15.085656.22698@newstand.syr.edu> pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk) writes:
>>In article <wf_rnQm00gpIQQoVNa@andrew.cmu.edu>
>>"Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>>Why? The TNG Enterprise is (fictional) 24th century technology. What
>>>about 26th century technology? 28th? The point of Clarke's Law is that
>>>there is no visible ceiling on technology.
>>
>>Ah, but there IS.  There is a limit on how strong we can make normal
>>matter.  There is a limit on how fast we can travel.  There is a
>>limit on how much energy we can get from 1g of mass.
>>

It may so happen that we find a way to extract energy or its
equivalent from something else than the annihilation of matter.

See, for example, Asimov's _The Gods Themselves_ or Heinlein's
_Waldo_.

>>You are assuming that technology can go on forever.  It CAN'T.

How do you know that?  And what do you mean by "forever"?

See, for example, Chalker's Well of Souls pentalogy.

>>But the scale does NOT go on forever.

Perhaps you're using the wrong scale?



-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: Ender: The Movie
Organization: The Bavarian Illuminati
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:00:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.053152.18853@samba.oit.unc.edu>, gbc@med.unc.edu (Geoff Crooks) writes:
 > Was at a book signing Tuesday, and Orson Scott Card mentioned that after
 > several years of negotiations, some production compnay (he didn't say
 > which one) agreed to his terms regarding making Ender's Game into a movie.
 > The sticking point wasn't money, but according to Scott, had to do with
 > the producers wanting to play Ender as a 16 yr old in order to appeal to
 > the teen market.  Scott recounted a bit of his discussion with one
 > producer in which he asked the producers "well, what about E.T. or
 > Home Alone" to which they replied, yes, well, those are "special" movies.
 > To which Scott replied, "well, I guess I'll have to find special
 > producers" :)))  Anyway, I found that entertaining.
 > 
 
  [Stuff Deleted]

Oh, gods.  Is it going to happen?  A movie version of _Ender's Game_?
Oh please, let a miracle happen.  Let them not screw it up, as they probably
will.  Please, please, please.  If a miracle *does* happen, this could
get really good.  Does anyone know which gods are in charge of movie production?

-Leif
From: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: RE: TERRITORIAL DISPUTES
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:43:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Brentwood BBS Harrison, NY  914-835-7898
Reply-To: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 

-> Anyhow, it was a try.  Anyone else want to figure out how to wipe out
-> a solar civilization in such a way that no warnings are generated?

Well, there is another alternative and it must be *possible* -
destabilize the star.  However, there certainly wouldn't be any real
estate to grab up afterwards...  As for no warnings of any kind,
probably not.  But having a warning and being able to do something about
it can be two different things.

J
From: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: TERRITORIAL DISPUTES
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:07:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Brentwood BBS Harrison, NY  914-835-7898
Reply-To: jeff.kling@brent.uucp (Jeff Kling) 

-> I would claim that this is a severe drawback to the whole concept of
-> 'territory' and that a truly enlightened interstellar civilization
-> would abandon the concept entirely.

Or, assuming a warlike race: you could send large masses at near light
speed via bussard ramjets at the offending worlds and destroy their
existing life forms - at least the higher ones anyway.  Then go in and
claim these worlds.  The other side would not have been able to
communicate the destruction back to warn the other worlds in time as
there would be no communciation faster than that of a ship.  So, at the
end of the war you would have some enemy ships out there with no place
to go for repairs, who could be mopped up later on at leisure.

I am NOT advocating this, mind you.  Just offering an alternative.

J
                                                                                              
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.startrek.tech
From: pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk)
Subject: Re: Territorial Disputes
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.startrek.tech
Organization: Adhocracy of Enlightened Self-Interest, Research
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 19:16:46 EST

In article <1992Dec16.183737.26405@julian.uwo.ca> 
jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:

>>Anyhow, it was a try.  Anyone else want to figure out how to wipe out a solar
>>civilization in such a way that no warnings are generated?
>
>system also being stealthy. Industry tends to leave marks: cities radiate
>heat, reaction drives radiate heat and mass, cultures rearrange topography
>to suit themselves. A sneaky aggressor might lob 4 K cannonballs at large
>fractions of C at critical industries and let the resulting economic
>disruption erode the local culture (Akin to nomads destroying irrigation
>systems of non-nomadic target cultures in the middle-east, a tactic  whose
>effects are still with us) before attempting to restructure  the local
>economy to suit  themselves. Nomadic types might  not mind destroying
>sedentary cultures if they manage to loot  what they want: with speed
>of  light  limits  on travel, return business is likely to be rare.

But who would be motivated to do this?  Cosmic nomads would be much better
served by NEVER doing this.  What would they want?  Certainly not territory.
Rare elements?  They could probably trade information; it would be a LOT
less trouble.  

If the solar civilization were isolated, yes someone could do something like
this.  But you'd have to:

	1) Observe your opponents and insure that they did not have any 
	   contact with folks you wouldn't want to alerted.
	2) Show up and interact with the remnants in some capacity after
	   you bombed them back to the 20th century.  

As for #2, don't you think they'd suspect something?

	--Peter Kwangjun Suk
From: duru@cc.ec-lyon.fr (Duru Emmanuel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: 'silly' timetravel: it's again me...
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:15:32 GMT
Reply-To: <duru@cc.ec-lyon.fr>

Here are a few corrections of my previous article, and a few other titles...

* First (shame on me...), the Stainless Steel Rat books and The Technicolor 
Time-Machine are by Harrison, and not by Lem.
The Technicolor Time-Machine is the same book than  "The Timed-Machined Saga" 

* the title of del Rey's story title may be "I am Legion"

* some other titles:
	_Who Goes Here?_ by Bob Shaw
	"Roadmarks" by Zelazny
	"Les seigneurs de la guerre" by Gerard Klein (a french novel)
	other sequences in Heinlein's stuff: 
	   Time Enough For Love, The Number Of The Beast, The Cat Who Walked 
	   Through Walls, Farnham's Freehold...
	James Blish - "The Quincunx of Time", 
	              "Beep"
	Isaac Asimov - "The End Of Eternity"

* someone proposed me HG Wells's "Time machine" but I think it doesn't fir in
the category of stories I'm looking for...

						Emmanuel Duru
duru@cc.ec-lyon.fr
Ecole Centrale de Lyon
36 avenue Guy de Collongue
69130 Ecully - France


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: Ender: The Movie
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:15:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.160009.8188@ugle.unit.no> leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) writes:
>Oh, gods.  Is it going to happen?  A movie version of _Ender's Game_?
>Oh please, let a miracle happen.  Let them not screw it up, as they probably
>will.  Please, please, please.  If a miracle *does* happen, this could
>get really good.  Does anyone know which gods are in charge of movie production?

Blumferdle the Witless.

Be afraid.  Be *very* afraid.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
From: insinga@tle.enet.DEC.COM (Aron Insinga ZK2-1/Q18 1N24 dtn 381-1928  17-Dec-1992 1623)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Do you buy books because of their cover?
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:27:01 GMT

No, but sometimes I buy covers which happen to be attached to books that I know
I will never read, for my collection of SF Art By Pros From Delaware.  (It's a
small collection, but then Delaware is a small state.)

					- Aron Insinga
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: gbc@med.unc.edu (Geoff Crooks)
Subject: Re: The Call of Earth
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:12:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.163719.5543@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> mforbes@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (I am a Jelly Doughnut) writes:
>anyone happen to know when US distribution starts?
>it's the 2nd book in the Memory of Earth series from Orson Scott
>Card...
>thanx all!:)
>-Mike Forbes
>
You apparently missed my post last week...

The Call of Earth (I think that's the title) is to be released March 93.

And don't forget to read Lost Boys... I'm not done with it yet, but so
far it's quite good.

Geoff.
.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: mforbes@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (I am a Jelly Doughnut)
Subject: The Call of Earth
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:37:19 GMT

anyone happen to know when US distribution starts?
it's the 2nd book in the Memory of Earth series from Orson Scott
Card...
thanx all!:)
-Mike Forbes

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk)
Subject: Re: hard and soft sf
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 18:59:13 EST

In article <BzCsCA.Ksv@ciss.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> 
root@ciss.DaytonOH.NCR.COM writes:

>In article <1992Dec15.085656.22698@newstand.syr.edu> 
>pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk) writes:
>
>>In article <wf_rnQm00gpIQQoVNa@andrew.cmu.edu>
>>"Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>>Why? The TNG Enterprise is (fictional) 24th century technology. What
>>>about 26th century technology? 28th? The point of Clarke's Law is that
>>>there is no visible ceiling on technology.
>>
>>Ah, but there IS.  There is a limit on how strong we can make normal
>>matter.  There is a limit on how fast we can travel.  There is a
>>limit on how much energy we can get from 1g of mass.
>
>I think you just made his point.  The statements you make are true NOW.
>They may, or may not be true in the future.

No, the statements I just made will always be true.  There is a LOT of
room under those limits, but those limits are as firm as anything.

>>You are assuming that technology can go on forever.  It CAN'T.
>
>Well, I suppose the limits of technology would be reached if we were 
>omniscient; otherwise, I suppose there would still be something to be 
>learned, eh?

Yes, there will always be things to be learned.  There will probably
be tricks that we would NEVER have thought of today, no matter how
many Einsteins we'd have running about, but we do know enough in certain
fields to be able to define upper bounds for ourselves.  (Take 
computability as an example.  We KNOW that the halting problem is 
undecideable.)

(And, if I'm wrong, so much the better.  I'd love to see Proxima Centauri
up close someday.)

	--Peter Kwangjun Suk




Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.startrek.tech