From: milo@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Michele Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Interview with Russell Means
Keywords: Columbus Day
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:05:23 GMT
Organization: Alpha Institute, Aurora, CO.


Copied without permission from the Rocky Mountain News, Oct. 4,
1992.

  HERO OR DESPOT: Columbus parade is target of celebration and
  outrage

   Should Italian-Americans have the right to publicly honor the
15th century explorer, Christopher Columbus, in a parade through
downtown Denver streets? Or does Columbus represent,
notwithstanding the federal holiday in his name, the centuries-old
persecution of American Indians?
   Leaders of the American Indian Movement have promised to disrupt
the Oct. 10 parade, while the Italian-American Federation insists
it has the right to express its heritage. Discussing the issues
today are Maria Allen of the Italian-American Federation and Russell
Means of the American Indian Movement. The discussion was moderated
by editorial writer Jean Torkelson.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RMN: To resolve this dispute, the Italian-American community has 
offered among the following concessions: a moment of symbolic silence 
during the parade; a wearing of armbands; an offer to help open 
Indian markets in Italy and the rest of Europe. What do you say to that?

MEANS: Well, let's go through the history of our relationship, our
attempted relationship, with the Italian Federation. In 1990, the
time of their first parade, we negotiated...there was a condition
that the Italian Federation and the American Indian community would
get together and have dialog within the course of the next year. We
set a date, and then (the Federation) called and cancelled it.
After that, they never returned our calls, and absolutely nothing
happened. In 1991, as of course you know, we stopped part of the
parade for a while, and that was (found) legal. Still, no
communication from the Italian Federation. So, it's been two years
and the Italian-American community has absolutely refused to be in
any way friendly. So, consequently, with this eleventh hour
approach we haven't any confidence.

ALLEN: If you're still open to meeting with us, you are dealing
with different people now. You're dealing with Phil Antonelli and
me, and new members of the federation.

RMN: How do you feel about the concessions offered today?

MEANS: Well, I wonder what the Jewish people would say, or what the
black people would say, if the Ku Klux Klan offered to wear
armbands on behalf of any one of the atrocities that either one of
those ethnic groups have suffered. I'm sorry, but to celebrate a
despot is unconscionable and, on the eve of the 21st century,
irrational.
   We have two reasonable demands: Change the name of the parade,
celebrate your culture, and we will join the parade, and so will
our supporters. The second request is that no celebratory
references to Christopher Columbus be brought into play.

ALLEN: We feel that removing the name Columbus would be tantamount
to removing Martin Luther King from Martin Luther King Day. What
would be the next target? We celebrate Columbus for the man that he
was, and what he was as an explorer. We celebrate his courage, his
determination, his willingness to try something new, the challenges
he faced, and we celebrate the opportunity that he, in a sense,
created in America that made America the beacon to the world- and
is still the beacon to the world - for all ethnic groups.
   And yes, we agree with what you're saying as far as the
injustices that are being done to the Indians to this day. And
we're willing to work with you to right those injustices. I do
believe, that, yes, some slavery did occur under Columbus. We don't
deny that, but I do believe that the numbers are totally blown out
of proportion.
   
MEANS: Fine. Let the Italians celebrate their Garibaldi, da Vinci,
Columbus, anyone they choose. That's great. We celebrate people
that we choose that the Italians know nothing about. My point is,
though, that a national holiday - the parade is sanctioned by the
state - is unacceptable, and when there's no longer a national
holiday to this despot, then fine, the Italians can have their
parades. But when the state sanctions such a parade, it is
unacceptable. That would be tantamount to celebrating Hitler.

ALLEN: We think it's unreasonable to compare Columbus with Hitler.
Columbus was a man of his times. What he did was done during those
days. It was done all over. What Hitler did was NOT done. What
Stalin did was NOT typical of his times. What's happening now in
Croatia is NOT typical of our times. Why do you keep insisting
Columbus was a despot?

MEANS: The hatred began Oct. 12, 1492, and the legacy of Columbus
can be traced in every court case that we have lost concerning our
freedom of religion, our civil rights, our treaty rights, our
national rights, our Constitutional rights - you can trace that
legal reasoning, very lucidly and comprehensively, all the way back
to Oct. 12, 1492.

ALLEN: Due to one man, not the Spanish government?

MEANS: To one man - sanctioned, of course by the Spanish crown.

RMN: So what happens on parade day?

MEANS: We are going to use all peaceful means of protest available
in this country to us, and we will definitely use peaceful civil
disobedience.
   The police riot that's being threatened in your paper and the
rest of the media in Denver by (new police chief) Dave Michaud and
(SWAT commander) Kelly Carpenter - the fact that they're making
racist remarls and threats to the news media - is that Michaud is
saying that there will be no negotiations in the street and that
this time it will be dealt with before the first sign of trouble.

ALLEN: I perceive those comments as being their determination to
maintain our First Amendment rights - the First Amendment right of
every single citizen in this country. Your right, too.

RMN: What do you foresee for the parade?

ALLEN: I foresee that it will be peaceful. I really do. Deep down I
feel it's going to be peaceful. I trust Russell. We trust our
people. The word is going around: Use the 3 R's; that is show
respect, don't react, and don't respond. We will certainly not
instigate anything - any violence, nothing at all.

RMN: As we speak, you have about ten groups that have agreed to
participate. Last year at this time there twice a s many. How big
do you see the parade?

ALLEN: Steadily, it's growing. I don't have the numbers because I'm
not the parade chairman, but the entries are coming in. We tend to
do things at the last minute. We definitely see a full-scale
parade.

RMN: What will you instruct your people to do? 

MEANS: Well, our people, which is the American Indian Movement, are
very disciplined and always peaceful. We have a record, and it's
all verified in courts of law throughout the land, that we've won
every trial - virtually every trial. We're a peaceful group that
believes in self-defense. We refuse to turn the other cheek or bend
over to get the other two kicked. And if we see the police attack
any of our women and children or any of our people, we will respond
in kind. We always have and we always will.

RMN: Will you carry weapons?

MEANS: I don't know. Some of the people are karate experts and
their hands are supposed to be weapons. I imagine that might be
considered a weapon, but, of course, (nothing else). We have
prayer, and we have discipline, and we have the drum, and our
songs, and that's what we'll utilize. (But) no weapons, drugs or
alcohol.

RMN: Are you going to bring out-of-state protesters in?

MEANS: Oh yes. They're coming fro all over the country. More
importantly, I believe that more non-Indians will be supporting us
than will be Indian people. The AIM view on this whole parade has
been endorsed by the NAACP, by the Hispanic Council, and by the
Colorado Council of Churches, the New Jewish Agenda, an Asian
organization, etc. We have told them that if you're going to be
there, come with what you have in your heart.

RMN: Mayor Wellington Webb has said that the Italian- Americans
have a right to march and disrupters will be arrested. Your
reaction?

MEANS: Your own newspaper reported on a press conference by Mayor
Webb in which he said that he would use every legal means available
to the government of Denver, with all their lawyers paid by the
taxpayers, to stop the Ku Klux Klan from marching on Martin Luther
King Day. And I asked him in a meeting point-blank one day whether
he would apply the same reasoning to this parade on behalf of the
Indian people. There was no answer from Mayor Webb.

ALLEN: I find that contradictory to what the mayor has said before
in his previous statements: That the city of Denver will ensure
peace and will ensure that no one gets hurt.

RMN: And to the argument that the Italian-Americans have a right
to free expression?

MEANS: I do not agree that it is a First Amendment issue. In fact,
the injunction (with which) we seek to stop the parade is based
upon the Genocide Treaty signed into law by President Reagan in
1987. And under the law of the land, which is that treaty,  it is
against the law to advocate genocide, and to perpetuate the lies of
Columbus is to advocate genocide.

RMN: Is the name change still on the table?

ALLEN: I don't see that. Our position is that we would follow the
law. The name would have to be changed at the federal level; we're
celebrating a federal holiday. If the name is that disagreeable - I
want to make clear we do not support the effort - there are legal
channels.

MEANS: That's why we've asked the Italian-American community to
lead the way.

ALLEN: We don't feel that Columbus was a despot.

RMN: But if federal law was changed, you would change the name of
the parade?

ALLEN: Exactly.

RMN: So this is the impasse; until then, no concessions?

MEANS: Once we're accepted as human beings. We've already conceded
the hemisphere.

ALLEN: We do accept you as human beings.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Russell Means will be leading a peaceful demonstration in Civic
Center Park, Denver, Colo., Oct. 10, 1992 starting at 9:00 AM.
-Michele]

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          Michele Lord               *  Walk in Peace with
      milo@scicom.alphacdc.com       *  our Mother Earth 
                                     *  and our Father Sky.
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From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:37:08 GMT
Subject: Please Help
Organization: HP Western Response Center