From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father
X-To: KARL DENNINGER
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:44:00 GMT

karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes...
KD> In article <1992Nov27.014651.13322@zooid.guild.org> Will Steeves <goid@zooid
KD> ld.org> writes:
KD> >
KD> >At any rate, I'm glad to see that there is at least ONE person besides myse
KD> >who is pushing this idea.  I still don't understand why so many people have
KD> >problems with artificial wombs (it would remove "women's biological prison"
KD> >or at the very least, have seemed *very* quiet about the idea.
KD> >
KD> >Any other ideas here?

KD> Will, isn't it obvious what the agenda is?

KD> What are abortion rights all about?
KD> They are not, primarily, about the right to choose whether or not to use
KD> your body as an incubator.


Actually, that depends on one's reasons for being "pro-women's choice".  I
would think that most non-activists are of the opinion "I really don't think
that abortion is right, but I don't think that it's right to force a woman to
stay pregnant" (and even though I *am* an activist, this is also my opinion).

The only problem occurs with people who are "pro-women's choice" because of
the argument of "bodily integrity".  Oftentimes, the civil libertarian side
(as outlined above) is ignored, leading to a definition of reproductive
choice which benefits women only.

I believe that you also touched on that particular point, a little bit later
on in your message.


KD> They ARE, primarily, about the right to choose whether or not to have a
KD> child -- and in fact, a >particular< child.

KD> Abortion is used for:
KD> 1)      Family planning (I don't want/can't afford/can't deal with a(nother)
KD>         child now).
KD> 2)      Sex selection (I found this unbelieveable, but it's true)
KD> 3)      Protecting the physical life and health of the woman.
KD> 4)      Aborting a fetus conceived due to rape or incest (non-consensual
KD>         or "illegal" sexual relations)

KD> Far fewer abortions are performed to protect the woman's health or life, or
KD> to terminate rape or incest pregnancies, than for any other reason.
KD> Therefore, regardless of what women >say< their motive is, the facts glare
KD> back at all of us when one analyzes the statistics on the abortions which
KD> are actually >performed<.  They are, on the large, performed as a matter of
KD> reproductive >choice<.

KD> Does a woman have the right to choose whether or not to be a mother to any
KD> particular child?

KD> If you say "yes" to the above, why is it that men do not have the same
KD> right?  There is no biological distinction here.  It is not a matter of
KD> health in the majority.  It is a matter of >choice<, and the choice is all
KD> about reproductive freedom.   It is also all about a sexist choice which
KD> only applies to women.

KD> An artificial womb is the anti-choice crowds' best dream.  It renders the
KD> issue of >killing< an aborted fetus moot.  It is also the feminists' worst
KD> nightmare.  It renders men and women equal in this area.  Now abortions for
KD> all three reasons above do >not< result in the death of the fetus.  Now
                                                                        ^^^
KD> women, who claim that their right to abortion is based on the right to
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KD> control the use of their body, end up supporting children they do not want
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, there you go -  that's where you mentioned it (ie., the fact that "bodily
integrity" pro-choicers are by and large "anti-male choice"...)

Even so, you really can't call them hypocrites...   Although they don't seem
to have any concept of civil liberties (in this case, I am referring the right
not to be forced to something that one is unwilling to do), they believe that
women should be forced to parent children who have been conceived in an
artificial womb.

I *do* find this rather strange, though.  It's hard to debate when the people
doing the debating, are arguing from *totally* different positions.

So, the question is - how do we convince such people that the right not to not
be forced to be parents, *should* exist, and exists, for all intents and
purposes for women, though not for men, and that the technology of artificial
wombs should *not* change the fact that a woman *could* just as well decide
that the she can't raise the child, and that the man should consider doing so
by himself?

This *is* rather a toughie, isn't it?

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
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