From: jb00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSE ANTONIO BASTO)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Date: 21 Nov 92 17:47:40 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


Mr. Dewanto: You have been extreme unpolite being removing the origin of the
previous posting ( from jb00@lehigh.edu), I hope you keep with USENEWS ethics
and don't repeat it...




In article <1992Nov19.204025.12907@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gas
ton Dewanto) writes:
>
>>Where is your argument? By your point of view, Portugal should be Spanish,
>>because Spain is all around us... Timor is different ethnically, linguistic
>>and culturally from Java, and it will not be "Pancasila" that will change by
>>miracle thousands of years of history.
>>
>You forget that the West Timor and East Timor are in the same island and
>they are the same ethnic. The West Timorese are Indonesians and so are the
>East Timorese. Don't you know that there are many efforts to integrate
>people from the same ethnic like the West and Est German, South and North
>Korea or North and South Vietnam. If we were separated, we should be
>very thankful to you or other civilized people who came for Glory, Gold
>and Gospel.

Please, don't start with propaganda. When Portuguese arrived to West Indies,
we did find a myriad of small kingdoms, several hundred different dialects, and
diverse ethnic groups. I can not accept your examples, all of them based in

very recent (in Historic terms) of IDEOLOGIC divisions of the same country
(Germany, Korea, Vietnam). Two of them are already united AGAIN, one will
certainly soon. Therefore, think first, before you present your arguments,
because E. Timor was never part (and is not) of any Indonesia...

The fact that W. Timorese are on the same island is not an argument. If is was
true, also W. Papua would not be part of Indonesia...

The History shows also same differences: in 1580 Portugal was annexed by Spain
(our King get killed in North Africa in the biggest defeat of our history (we
lost the all ruling class in a single battle ...), and automatically, Holland
became our enemy, invading Brasil.

In 1640, we declared Independence again (against the most powerful country of
the time in Europe), resulting in a war of 27 years against the Spanish.

At the same time, we did kick out the Dutch out of Brasil, and from our
African territories.

Farther away (or closer, in Indonesia referential B-), the Dutch invaded our
territories (and that included many others islands, like Sunda and Flores) and
W. Timor. Why did they stopped at E. Timor border? You don't need to be a
genius to understand that with war at home, at our main colonies (Brasil and
Africa), that Portugal was not in position to concentrate any forces at E.
Timor... The point is that ANOTHER people was not interested at all in being
invaded by the Dutch and their West Timor allies...

Another difference can be found more recently: during WWII, E. Timor did resist
the Japanese invasion (together with Australian Commandos, Portugal being
neutral in that War). Why W. Timor never resisted the Japanese invasion?

Again, your previous leaders, the ones that formed the Republic of Indonesia,
always declared that E. Timor WAS NOT part of Indonesia.

Please, do not try to distort History...

>
>>
>>This is the Indonesian version... In reality, APODETI, a very, very small
>>party, promoted by Indonesian Intelligence, made the Portuguese Military
>>Governor hostage, seized the Radio, and did tried to seize power, after being
>>evident that they will never win the elections being planned (the regional
>>elections gave FRETILIN an big advantage...)
>>
>This is not the Indonesian version, I read this from a post in
>alt.culture.indonesia by somebody not an Indonesian I believe.
>However it seems that you have the Portuguese version.

Do you like it or not, I have the version of the last Military Governor in
Dili. If you read Portuguese, I can send you a copy. HE WAS THERE BY THE TIME,
before the Indonesians had invaded.

I also talked personnaly with a Portuguese Paratrooper (one of 60 detached to
E. Timor for safety of the Governor, and only "strike" force present in the
entire island) that was taken hostage by APODETI and held in Indonesia for
several months, and he also defends the same version.

>
>>If you look at UN records, you will see that:i) Portugal never did recognize
>>indepence to E. Timor; ii) Portugal accused FRETILIN of illegally seizing the
>>power; iii) Portugal still is the admnistrating power of E. Timor.
>>
>So you are still supporting imperialism. Congratulation, you just show
>your real face.
>If you accused Fretilin did illegal thing, why do you let them in your country
>live freely?

Mr. Dewanto: are you reading my post, or just want a pretext to attack me?

My face is always the same, and if you could interpret what I had been
writing you would understand that I am against Imperialism (that didn't
brought nothing good to my country, only problems and human lives losses...),
so please don't start easy "name calling" that does accomplish nothing.

I repeat: Portugal has NO claims in E. Timor, and it is written in our
Constitution their right to decide what the E. Timorese people want to do with
their own country...

About FRETILIN, they are welcome in Portugal, as are the members of UDT, that
formed with FRETILIN a common front to resist the Indonesians invaders. This
not mean that Portugal gives the process of descolonization as concluded.

More important, all the members of UDT now outside E. Timor recount how they
had been forced to sign (against their will) the demand of annexation by
Indonesia...)

>>
>>We did face well established civilizations, with development in many aspects
>>really superior to Portugal (or west Europe, as matter of fact), like India,
>>China, Japan, Java, Burma, etc... It was not like the invasion by Spain of
>>weak Central and South America civilizations (not with the purpose of trading,
>>just the grasping as much gold as they could...) or the North Europe settlemen
t
>>in North America.
>>
>I believe that I read about something done by Alfonso d'Alburquerque in
>Malaya in alt.culture.indonesia that was not something nice.
>

I never said that the Portuguese expansion was without mistakes...

What probably the person didn't say about the Afonso de Albuquerque (correct
Portuguese name) reason to invade Malaca was the massacre of Portuguese trade
ships by the local kingdom, promoted by Ottoman merchants, that prior the
arrival of the Portuguese, had the monopoly of the lucrative spices trade in
the region. History is a complex matter...and I am not defending the
atrocities perpreted by my ancestors, but at the time the ethics were very
different from today, and we found many wars going on at the region, and by
the narration by our explorers, the rage of those wars were as good as in
Europe B-(

>>
>>Being an western, I find difficult to understand why you don't give the some
>>importance to a single human life, as we do. But, living with International
>>neigbours from all over the world, I can learn. We have much more in common
>>than differences (real differences, not form of the eyes, or color of the skin
,
>>etc ...). We are all human beings, and WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT, you liked
>>it or not.
>>
>We care about human life. However, we can not let any independent movement
>in our area, because it will give much more problem. See Yugoslavia or
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The problem for Indonesia is to keep E.Timor, not to give them their freedom
back...

It is obvious that you are paying for an immense military machine, young
Indonesians are getting killed there, all for a tinny half of an islands at
the outskirts of your big country.


>USSR for example. Are they better now after the fall of socialism?
>We don't have any intention to kill any East Timorese, after all they are
>the same of us. However to keep the stability, we have to act harshly,
>which unfortunately victimize innocent people.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The USSR and YU are examples against you: NO REGIME CAN GO AGAINST THE WILL OF
PEOPLE.

USSR was one of the "super-powers" of the world, but yet the "glue"
that hold the country together (comunism + KGB + repression + etc) didn't hold
the true test of time.

YU was another post WWII invention: how obliterate thousands of years of
History, cultural and ithenical diferences? IT DOES NOT WORK! You want to give
it a try? Its OK, you are in your right, is your country, and it depends on
the will of the Peoples of Indonesia to decide what to do with their future.
BUT, E. TIMOR didn't CHOOSE TO BE PART OF INDONESIA, and, until it does, you
have absolutely no right to decide what they want. In the mean time, STOP
KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE, there is no way that justifies the violence your Army
is doing against the whole population...

>>About Australia, they did plan to take E.Timor after the WWII, only being
>>deterred because Portugal did a treaty with the USA, giving the Americans a
>>aerial base at the Azores islands (a very strategic archipelago in the middle
>>of the Atlantic, fulcral in defeating the German U-Boats and refuel of
>>airplanes coming from USA to Europe) against help to recover E. Timor from
>>the Japanese...
>>
>>It is obvious that they would have more problems in negotiating with us than
>>with Indonesia, and they keep a large share of the oil (againstaustralian
>>public opinion) and Indonesia keeps the shame...
>>
>I wonder what the Australians say about this.

That is easy: I will post this on <<soc.culture.australian>> under the heading
"E. Timor & Australia" and we can see... Please follow that group.

>>
>>No comments: their subordinates kill more than 100 people, and they walk away
>>with a little tap on the back (wait and see, perhaps they will get promoted
>>soon, after all the publicity about will get down ...)
>>
>They were fired and many people in the military regretted it.
>I believe that is the end of their careers.

Lets wait and see: Gen. Murdanni, the top Army chief, didn't seem very upset
by their actions, he did said: "all agitators <<read Timorese demonstrators>>
will be shoot"

Maybe in a few months we know more about. Defenitivelly, that still are in
the Army, they had not been suspended.

But the point is: under their responsibility (as supreme commanders in E.
Timor, and in the region), more than 100 innocent people is massacred, and
they are not even put in trial... What kind of Justice do your country want us
to believe you practice, when a peaceful demonstrator gets a life sentence
only because he does not agree with your ideas?

>>
>>Maybe E. Timorese will want more freedom, more respect for themselves than to
>>grow more $100 in GNP. If you really are happy with the corruption in
>>Indonesia, 1% of the population owning 99,9% of the land, poor people
>>everywhere, even in the suburbs of Jakarta (not to speak in the small islets),
>>if you are happy to speak "bahasar" instead of the language of your ancestors,
>>you are free to choose.
>>
>One percent of our population own the land as big as a third of West Europe?
>You must have a really good imagination or some body else does.
>Understanding our national language will make people can speak with any
>other people in our country. What is wrong with that? Do you want to
>have a brother who can not communicate with you?
>

Do you want me to believe Indonesia is a land where the middle class is the
"power class", that the majority of Indonesian peasants own their own land?

We are well aware of the corruption that goes on Indonesia, starting by
Suharto himself, his children, the top generals, etc.

In Portugal there is a say: "The worst blind person is the one who do not want
to see". Please open your eyes...

>>
>>If it wasn't deliberately done, it was very expontaneous to have companies of
>>soldiers to incircle a group of demonstrators and shoot without any warning,
>>to stab the survivors and to make disappear in mass graves already digged the
>>bodies... What was not deliberately done, and that I am sure, was to be
>>outsmarted by a reporter, that put a video of the scene in the TV's of world,
>>showing the true face of the Indonesian occupation of E. Timor.
>>
>I heard a talk by the reporter that was there last year. I don't deny that
>there were shooting and many people got killed. However the reporter
>gave a very subjective view that made the Indonesian government almost
>like a merciless animal. As an Indonesian, I found out he was wrong in many
>ways. My point is we have to be careful of what reporters say, because
>they can make any news they want just for their own benefit.
>

The reporters can say what they want, and if it is against your interests, you
are suggesting that they are lying... But IMAGES DO NOT LIE, and it was a
peaceful demonstration of thousands of young people, risking their lives (and
dying ...B-( for the independence of their own country.

About your words defining your government, they can be true, even if you don't
believe in it...

>>So, I can kill people, because other people do so... Mr. Dewanto, is a little
>>difficult to not start to "flame" you about this affirmation, but that would b
e
>>very constructive, I only kindly ask you to read again what you had written,
>>and not assume that you represent the Indonesian majority ideas about
>>massacring pacif demonstrators...
>>
>I never say that we can kill people.
>

Mr. Dewanto: I going to post again what you writhed in your message the 15
Nov., to allow you to remember that you writhed that your government can do
killings, because other governments do the same...

Where in USENEWS, " selective amnesia" does not work.

ORIGINAL POSTING:
From: dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Date: 15 Nov 92 03:57:39 GMT

In our development, we can not afford to have politically unstable condition,
therefore sometimes we have to act hardly against any disturbance (I don't
say that the shooting in Santa Cruz was deliberately done). I think other
goverments also do that. So there must
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
be some people who are not happy with that but nothing is perfect.
We don't want to kill the ET people, they are our brothers like the
rest of Indonesians. But any act to separate E. Timor from Indonesia can
not be accepted.

g.dewanto
mben/uw-m
dewanto@cae.wisc.edu

END OF ORIGINAL POSTING

>For the benefit of other people in this newsletter who may be bored
>with our discussion that has nothing to do with them, would you kindly
>put your posting to a more appropriate newsletter, e.g.,
>alt.culture.indonesia.
>I believe you can have broader views from either the Indonesian and the
>Portuguese.
>
>
>Kindly,
>
>g.dewanto
>

Unfortunelly, my University does not have access to any <<alt>> group. Until
them, I will keep this discussion here (unless I receive a clear response from
the other nationalities represented in this Newsgroup asking me to leave).

All my best

Jose' Basto
jb00@lehigh.edu
 
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