HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dd@ra.cs.umb.edu (Dave Dunbrack)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Dangerous legal precedent in Ma.
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:27 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Dept of Math and CS

[MODERATOR:  I post this as an informational heads up, but kindly
request debate or followup info to go through t.p.g.  Thanks much.]

  As most Ma. residents know, the local chief of police is the issuing
authority on handgun permits; but the courts can intervene if the chief
acts in an "arbitrary" manner. Unfortunately, the system doesn't always
work. Frank Campbell, a long-time member of Braintree Rifle and Pistol
Club and Treasurer for the Painter's District Council 35 was denied 
renewal of his permit for protection which he had been issued many times
prior to this renewal. He took the case to court on the grounds that 
Braintree's new police chief (Edward Flynn) arbitrarily denied him.
A Quincy District Court judge (Lewis Whitman) said that while he felt
that the license would be issued in any other city or town, he refused
to over-rule the chief! Whitman was quoted in a local newspaper as
saying, "All I'm being asked to do is substitute my judgement on behalf
of the police chief's and that I will not do". Perhaps nobody told him,
but it is his *job* to overrule arbitrary denials, that's how the system
works. According to the article (in the Patriot Ledger - I don't have the
date handy), the judge refused to hear any of the witnesses assembled on
Frank's behalf.
  Frank is now taking his case to Dedham Superior Court. Should he lose,
this will send the wrong message to the local chiefs -- deny whoever you
wish, the courts will take no action. Thus, this case has strong
implications for all Ma. gun owners, and perhaps for those elsewhere as
well. 
  Frank has incurred a great deal of debt in his legal battles, and a
trust fund has been set up at Quincy Savings Bank to help defer the 
costs. Please help Frank defend his rights, my rights, and YOUR rights
by sending whatever you can to:
      The Frank Campbell Defense Fund
      c/o The Quincy Savings Bank
      1200 Hancock St.
      Quincy, Ma. 01269
  Just the cost of a couple boxes of ammo could really help; I'm gonna
shoot a little less this weekend to ensure I'll be able to shoot a lot
more in the future.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun Ammunition Debate
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:17:35 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:

#*in those cases where there's only one torso hit*, what percentage
#of them are stoppers?  In other words, if there's only one torso hit,

No, what Marshall's stats measure can more accurately be summarized
as: 

*In those cases where only one torso hit is required*, how does everthing
turn out?

i.e. the "97% stopper" figure for Fed 125 gr JHP .357 can only be arrived 
at by discounting all the cases where the first, the second, and the third
Fed 125 gr JHP .357 to go through the perp failed to make any impression
on him.
 
It may mean something, but not much.  That "97%" figure indicates it is
a safe bet better than "78%" .45 hardball, but "97%" has _nothing_ at
all to do with what a perp will do when you have to put some Fed 125 gr
JHP .357s in him. 

Jim Del Vecchio
From: cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.UC.EDU (Bill Preuss)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .308 PISTOL
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:20:51 GMT
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248

OK, he is my situation - I ordered a .308 Howa barreled action with the
intent of cutting it down to make a .308 pistol (like the Rem XP100
series)  I am now told that I can't cut a rifle down to a pistol under
the BATF rules and regulations - Something about barrel length and
overall length of a rifle.  Is this true?  If so how does Remington
and others make their XP type pistols legal?  Any comments would be
appreciated.
Bill Preuss
cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.UC.EDU (Bill Preuss)
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:57:49 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

rayma@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (Michael A Ray) writes:
#I plan on using this for action/combat pistol shooting (not too  
#serious; no compensators, optics, etc), casual target shooting, and  
#home defense.  This seems to require higher capacity (12+) to compete  
#in the combat matches (I saw my first this past Sunday!).   

#Unfortunately, I have quite small hands.  As an aside, are adjustable  
#sights a must for combat shooting?  I would like to get a new 9mm for  
#less than $400 at a gun show and have listed below what I think are  
#contenders regardless of whether they are too big for me.  I plan on  
#going to the local store sometime soon and handling as many as  
#possible.

Some bits of wisdom about selected guns:

#Colt All American 2000

Not feasible for combat matches, because the trigger characteristic
isn't usable for fast followup shots.

#Glock 17/19

Only for people with big hands.  I have a Glock 19 (same grip size as
the Glock 19, only a bit shorter) and I know a couple of fellow
shooters who don't like it because of the huge grip.

If you have small hands, stay away from the Glocks.

#CZ-75 clone

Great guns, especially the original from Brno.  They will need a
trigger job if bought unmodified, but the precision and the
price/performance ratio is unsurpassed.

#Ruger P-89 (until evryone shoots it down again)

Boom! .... screeeee .... SPLAT!  Any questions? :-)

Seriously, the one time I handled a P-89 it I noticed, that the fitting
between the slide and the lower part of the gun was rather loose.  I
wouldn't expect too high an accuracy from that gun.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: wloka@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Markus G. Wloka)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need advice on semi-auto rifles
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:23:50 GMT



I am considering the purchase of a semiautomatic rifle, of the "evil" assault
rifle variety, and would like to get some net advice on what to get.

My evaluation criteria are:

(++) Accuracy. The purpose of the rifle is plinking at targets, and learning
to shoot at 100-300 meter distances.  I would like to get accuracy that is
close to that of a rotating bolt rifle.

(++) Reliability.  I would like the rifle to feed even under adverse
circumstances.

(+) Scope mount is a must.

(+) An exchangeable folding stock would be nice to have.

(+) I would like to have a light trigger for target shooting.  The rifle
should therefore have a decent trigger pull, or it should be possible to
install a new trigger group. 

() Budget ~$1200, for new or almost new rifle.

(--) Home defense: I don't plan to use the rifle for self-defense, since a
rifle bullet is likely pierce 2-4 neighbor houses (drywall plus 1 inch
concrete-shell walls) in case of a miss. 


Candidates are:

HK-91 308:  Roller system.  I have some concern on the HK's ability to feed
when slightly dirty.  Is that concern unfounded?  

Valmet: Finnish AK-47.  Is that an accurate gun?

FN 308: Is it as accurate as the HK-91?

FN 223: 

Others?

Please email me your comments, and I will post a summary on the net.

markus
-
Markus G. Wloka                 Email: wloka@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
Motorola Inc., MD: AZ 34 EL510  Tel:   602 897 4452
2100 E. Elliot Road             FAX:   602 897 3518
Tempe, Arizona 85284
From: paladin@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Robin Yang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: more silencer questions
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:38:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz


     Wiperless silencers?  Aluminum shavings for baffling material?  Why
metal shavings?  Why not a variant on the steel wool?  And what is the best
baffling material for low-power rounds?  I imagine the requirements change
depending on the original report.

ARPA : paladin@ucscb.ucsc.edu             UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!paladin
                      BITNET: paladin@ucscb@ucscc.BITNET
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need help/info on mini-guns (Vulcan cannons)
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:38:57 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

bilgeoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Patricia Gellert) writes:

#What exactly is the difference between a "gun" and a "cannon" especially
#in the context of jet fighters?  It seems like there is more to it than
#just the caliber.

	Websters New World Dictionary defines a cannon as a gun mounted
on an aircraft, as well as a mounted piece of artillery.  Personally,
I find that any mounted piece that is not fired unmounted or from at
least a bipod by a soldier qualifies as a cannon.  The short definition
is "any gun I wouldn't fire from the shoulder myself."  In this case,
the .454 Casull certainly qualifies as a "hand cannon."

	There is also a good possibility that the BATF uses bore diameter
as a measure, but this would be under certain conditions as I've seen .74
calibre black powder rifles being used without need of permit.  Oh, those
rifles were incredibly fun to observe!  Lots of smoke and BANG!

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"I see angels on Ariels in leather and>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | chrome, Swooping down from heaven to >
<viking@iastate.edu      | carry me home."   ---    R. Thompson >
<ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee.>
From: montyb@aosg.gsf.dec.com (Monty C. Brandenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Night vision equipment
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:14:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: alpha.9209301854.AA07905


Sources and comments on night vision equipment.

The Starlite scopes and related equipment use first generation image
intensifier tubes (6032's I believe) generally requiring active 
illumination from some sort of IR source.  This is antique equipment
and nobody should be paying thousands for it.

The Russian stuff available in the US seems to be a miniaturized 
version of the first generation equipment.  A less expensive source for
this is Quality Parts Co.  They have a set for $750, I believe.

The good stuff begins with the second generation tubes.  In the US,
most equipment is based on Litton Microchannel Plate electron multiplier
tubes.  The M801 tube provides gain of up to 15,000 and the unit
cost of new parts is in the neighborhood of $1600.  A downrated version
of the tube, the M833, gives gain in the 5K - 10K range for $1500.
These are fairly simple devices requiring only optics and a 3V power
supply.  Expected lifetime in in the 1000 hour range I believe.  The
really good stuff, the third generation tubes, start at $3500 and go
up from there.  Neither the second nor the third generation tubes can
be exported from the US without permits.

Now, the best source for used equipment that I've found is actually
in Australia.  It's:

		Oatley Electronics
		5 Lansdowne Pde
		Oatley, NSW  2223
		Australia

		(02) 5794985 (phone)  (02) 5707910 (fax)

They have first and second generation viewers and used second generation
tubes from Litton and Mullard (British).  Some of these are in strange,
special purpose configurations but at the prices, it's worth it.  They
advertise in Radio Electronics but if you want, send mail to me, and I'll
fax what I've received from them.

					Monty
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 788's
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:59:14 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9209221201.aa00420@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
#In article <1992Sep21.123709.5646@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
##
##longer ranges. Actually, one of the most accurate rifles
##I've ever owned was a Remington model 788 in .22-250.
##One of the least accurate rifles I've ever owned was a heavy 
##barreled Ruger model 77 in .280 Remington. I've never actually used .223 for
##hunting groundhogs so I can't attest to it's effectiveness for that
##application. 
#
#The Rem 788 is an amazing little gun.  Built to be cheap and easy to
#make, it turns out to be an amazingly accurate piece.  We own 3 of them.
#I have a 308win that doesn't walk even when the barrel goes from warm
#to hot, a 223 that has turned out some .25 groups at 100 yds, and my wife's
#222 that has also done some fine shooting.  The 22 calibre 788's have a 
#medium-heavey barrel that is larger and longer than the 308.  The only
#drawback is the trigger mechanism, too horrible.  Some smith's have done
#good work on them and I had my 223 down to a dangerous 1 pound (capable
#of slam fire).  I have put a Canjar trigger on the 223 now and it is
#lighter and safer.  Getting the Canjar trigger was a nightmare.  They
#are poorly organized and misled me on the delay (said 10 days - took
#6 weeks).

Well spoken!  Mine (left-hand 6mm Rem. with Canjar trigger, necessary as 
mentioned) was purchased fairly early in the model duration (~1968) and
is my favorite all-time rifle, also capable of ~.25" groups with someone
else's eyes 8).  My wife's (right-hand 6mm with stock, but later, trigger)
shoots about .5", trigger notwithstanding.  I've talked a bunch of friends
and relatives into these inexpensive tack-drivers (mine cost $94.95 list,
new) and they all shot superbly, especially after bedding and floating.

One of my favorite 788 stories involves watching another 788 shooter at
a local range with a .222.  When range hangers-on saw his ~.5" targets,
they began exclaiming loudly about his "half-inch groups."  "I know," said
he, "and for the life of me, I can't figure out what's gone wrong."

After noting my 788, and exchanging winks, he told me that he normally
shot ~.25", and really _couldn't_ figure out his problem.  He sure shook
up the 30-30 shooters.
#
#Bill	burge@qdeck.com
#


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:44 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#From article <1992Oct1.224520.8310@ttinews.tti.com>, by hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath):
# 
# I have a SIG P226 and medium-large hands. (I wear "large" size gloves).
# My index finger can barely get a proper position on the trigger when my
# grip is as it should be (barrel in line with forearm).  I suspect this may
# be a problem with many high-capacity/double column autoloaders.  If you
# have small hands, be sure to try before you buy.
# 
# (But, if it fits and you can afford it, get a SIG.  They're great for
# combat style competitions.  They're extremely accurate, never jam and can
# load 18+1 with RamLine magazines.  Plus, they come stock with most of the
# features you'd otherwise have to pay a gunsmith to add.  Mine just won me
# 3rd place in stock pistol at a local IPSC style shoot.  It was only my
# third competition and that after a three month hiatus with no practice).
# 
# The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
# Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
# 3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
# Santa Monica, CA  90405


	Two things:

	1. there is a "short" trigger that you can substitute for the
stock one. It moved the trigger back about 1/4". Personally I have large
enough hands that I went back to the stock one. [I may be willing to 
sell the short trigger for the right price. :-)]

	2. Why are you fiddling around with RamLine magazines? Sig makes
FACTORY 20 round magazines. Magazines are an important enough part of
the gun not to risk using substitutes.


-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
From: kokerj@rpi.edu (James Matthew Kokernak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Are there restrictions on carry in public places
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:58:21 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY

In article <199209281440.AA21774@tbird.cc.bellcore.com> sykes@donner.cc.bellcore.com (sykes,michael) writes:
#Hello,
#
#This is my first post so please be gentle : ) !
#
#Question: 
#
#If you have been granted a permit to carry concealed weapons are there
#any places that you are not allowed to carry at all. (e.g. public places
#such as malls, sports arenas, etc.) I would figure the police would 
#give you such a hard time you might as well leave your weapon at home.
#
#I have a CCW permit and I was wondering if I am justified in being a litte
#aprehensive about carrying in a public place, or am I overreacting.
#
#Sorry if this is a FAQ or irrevalent to this group.
#
#Michael 

It is a violation of Federal Laws to trannsport a firearm into any federally
insured buildings. This means any banks, post offices, federal court houses,
etc. In many states it is also against state regulations to bring a gun onto
any school grounds. 

--Jim
From: kkrh@troi.cc.rochester.edu (K. Karcich)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: enfield conversions
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:57:19 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <BvG9Gp.95v@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:

#In article <1992Sep30.180753.9221@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, kkrh@troi.cc.rochester.edu (K. Karcich) writes:
##The #4 SMLE is sufficiently strong to handle the .308. This model is quite
##a bit stronger than the #1 mark III SMLE. The P-14 is not a conversion-it
##was manufactured that way before any were made as model 1917's in 30-06.The
##P-14 is not impossible to blow up, especially the brittle ones. In fact,
##there are more quality questions regarding this models manufacturing integrity
##than any of the british enfields. The design of the P-14 is better, but the 
##often mis-heattreated and over hardened receivers can be booby traps to the
##uninformed.


#	The only p-14's that have been reported to have problems
#	are the ones made by Eddystone Remingtion Arsenal (ERA).
#	The Remington and Winchester production ones have never to
#	my knowledge been accused of being mis-heat-treated.

It is true that the eddystone P-14's or M-1917's have more problems than the 
Remingtons or Winchesters, but the Remingtons and Winchesters still have more
heat treating problems than about anything else I can think of except low-numbered Springfields and a few other ex-military clunkers. Don't get me wrong, because I happen to like the design of the 1917, especially for large, long cartridges like the .375. However, I have seen Remington 1917's with cracks thru the front
receiver ring that was glass hard. And it was hard all the way thru because I
drilled it with a carbide drill to see just how hard it was. Also, I have heard
of several of these rifles that were soft and simply stretched on heavy loads untill the bolt set back and the owner had problems opening the bolt.

The point of all this is that these are good rifles, but they need a careful
examination by someone who knows what they are doing, before someone decides
that the rifle "is impossible to blow up".
From: tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:47:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <1992Oct4.164706.9804@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#	I learned "tap-rack-bang" but refresh my memory.  It's 
#"tap" -back of slide, to fully seat round in chamber for extractor grab,
#"rack" -the slide
#"bang" pull trigger, right?

#Jim D

	The venerable "tap-rack-bang" drill is:

	Tap:	the magazine (on the floorplate) to seat it securely

	Rack:	the slide

	Bang:	pull the trigger.

	One should "tap" or push the back of the slide (to attempt to
seat it fully into battery) only with extreme care, and with very
little pressure. If the slide won't go into battery with only very
slight forward pressure, forcing it there with more pressure is likely
to create problems of greater magnitude than getting rid of whatever
is (not quite) in the chamber by employing "tap-rack-bang".
-- 
     Peter Alan Kasler                            Fax: 707-939-8684
     Threat Management Institute                Voice: 707-939-0303
     800 West Napa Street                     TMI BBS: 707-935-1713
     Sonoma, CA  95476                     Internet: tmi@netcom.com
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT Automag II
Date: 30 Sep 92 11:28:09 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

#Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge or experience with this particular
#gun?  I've been looking for one for a while, and just ran across one locally.
#Amazingly enough, the store only wants $269 for it, less than a Ruger Mk. II!
#Any opinions/warnings/encouragement would be appreciated...

	That's because the Ruger Mk. II is a better gun.    A guy on the
net was maimed by one of those things blowimg up his hand.   It looks like
a junky toy to me, _and_ AMT makes it, so while I've never shot one, I would
be suprised if they are reliable with the .22 Mag round (an expensive round 
to plink with, btw).

JD
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Aimpoint 1000 batteries... ?
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:20:53 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

I remember this subject being discussed before, forgive the redundancy.
In replacing the standard "dinosaur" 3 volt battery in my aimpoint 1000 with
two 1.5 volt batteries (of the same diameter and appx. 1/2 height), I found out
that there are two kinds of batteries of this size. Low-drain and high drain.
Which should I use? The one I got are "low-drain" and work fine so far.
Does Aimpoint specify a specific battery to replace the original with? What kind
of life do you get with your Aimpoint 1000/batteries?
Thanks in advance.
From: fleck@cs.itc.hp.com (Dave Fleck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Concealed Weapons Permit ( again.... )
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:41:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: tbone3.9209301533.AA26276


kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

**stuff deleted**

# It is legal here to carry a loaded handgun in your car,
# unlike California.  However, I don't even feel the need to do so. So are 
# there any reasons for me to try to obtain a CWP? Thanks.

This is only the half truth!  You may carry a gun with  ammunition  in
it but there cannot be any  ammunition  in the  chamber..  ie..  under
the hammer.

# As a side question, if I do put my loaded pistol ( Beretta -- Hey! Defend your
# life with style!! :) in my car and get stopped by a cop for traffic violations
# what are the good excuses to tell him/her about why do I have a loaded 
# shinning beautiful pistol in my car? Thanks again.

If you have the  chamber  empty you need not  worry...  otherwise  you
will probably be explaining as he is cuffing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Fleck                              Hewlett-Packard Co.  Colorado Springs
Internet: fleck@cs.itc.hp.com           Information Technology Center