From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:50:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov5.215057.7003
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

laird@think.com (Laird Popkin) writes:
>Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>>Several people have used "keeping track of numbers" as an argument against
>>systems with more than (6?  8?) attributes.  One person considers "attribute
>>space" to be a scarce resource.  I'm having a little trouble understanding
>>the argument.
>
>It's not so much keeping track of numbers as a balance between simplicity
>and detail.  If you have 15 stats, that's 15 things that need to be
>determined in order to generate a character, and to take into consideration
>during play.  If you have 4 stats, then that's fewer things that need to be
>determined and taken into consideration. 

	But GURPS has more than 4 stats which are taken into consideration:
Will, Perception, Fatigue, Hit Points, Speed, Move, and Dodge are all treated 
separately from their 'base stats' in GURPS rules and mechanics. For example, 
most humans' Move equals Dodge, but that is not true in general (especially 
given the expasions in Supers, Martial Arts, Cyberpunk, etc.). 

	In fact, this causes a fair amount of confusion in the rules. If you 
have a 14HT / 104 hit-point giant, how much damage does it take to cripple 
his foot: 5 points, or 35? If 35 is the answer, then does the giant have to be 
taken down to -104 hit points before he has a chance of dying? 
	These sort of confusions would be dispelled if GURPS were to 
universally accept Hit Points as a separate stat from HT. 

>
>Personally, I think that GURPS' solution is quite good.  There are small
>number of stats, so there's not much *required* to create and play
>characters, 

	That is rather hard to say. Is character generation significantly 
easier or simpler because some traits are ads/disads rather than advantages? 
Not really. Most people spend a long time poring over the expansive lists of 
ads and disads to find what they want. I have yet to see anyone who has just 
bought base stats without considering the modifying disadvantages. Rather 
than mulling over whether to take certain ads/disads, they could just as 
easily either set a stat to its default, or just leave it. 
	Does it make things any easier during play? Again, I think not 
really, since so many 'virtual stats' are referred to separately in the 
rules from their base values. 

>
>If you converted all GURPS advantages to stats (i.e. you wanted to provide 
>the same level of possible detail) you would have *hundreds* of stats.  
>The use of advantages and disadvantages gives you the detail of those 
>hundreds of stats, without requiring everyone to use multi-page character 
>sheets covered with stats...

	Quite true. I have no objections whatsoever to the advantages and 
disadvantages *system*. I do have an objection to poorly defined attributes 
like IQ and HT, and to the confusions cause by splitting these into many 
'virtual attributes'. 

	Implying that "If you let in more than 4 stats, then you have 
to have hundreds." is just a dodge of the issue. GURPS mechanics already 
consider many stats separately - writing these down on the character sheet 
does not complicate things any. 

	I don't mean to say (and I don't think I have said) that 'more stats 
is better'. What I have said is that attributes should be clearly defined, 
so that they represent a distinguishable, intuitive, single character 
traits. 

	When attributes and advantages are deceptive to the point that people 
do not realize things, then something is wrong. For example, in GURPS, those 
with the 'Skinny' disadvantage are all *really strong* for their weight, 
which is not implied in the disad name or description. 

	Sorry if I am pounding a little heavy on GURPS at this point - there 
are plenty of other games with poorly defined attributes. GURPS just seem to 
be the case in point here. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "All the world will be your enemy, Prince with
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, 
Columbia University         | they will kill you."        - Watership Down