HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: seid@popov.EE.CORNELL.EDU (Steve Seidman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Auntie Mame, FEMINIST! (a book review)
Date: 23 Nov 1992 03:57:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

"Auntie Mame"  by Patrick Dennis (actual last name of
				  of author is "Tanner")
a book review,

Even though this is a 50's book it's style isn't modern at all.
It is written in the direct coherent style more akin to
the classical narratives, but with a more upbeat tone.

The character of Auntie Mame is pretty famous among
broadway, and children's musicals and probably various
other places I would never dream of looking.  So one may
be wondering "Why make such a big deal about the book that
started it all....it's kid's stuff isn't it?"  Hardly!!!
That's like saying "Gulliver's Travels or Huck Finn is a kid
story"  This sentiment will, of course be put to rest simply
by reading those books.  The same with Auntie Mame.  It is
not a children's story....not by a long shot!

I think it's a great book, and I also think that Aunt Mame is
truly a liberal and proto-feminist.  With incredible wit
and satire the book deals with issues of progressive education,
seduction, class, prejudice (anti-Semitism in this case), adoption
and the struggles of making it in a "man's world."

In a sentimental sense, "Auntie Mame" will always be
my favorite feminist.

reviewer:  Steve Seidman

send comments to: seid@ee.cornell.edu



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From: sharring@cs.tamu.EDU (Steven L Harrington)
Subject: Re: Camille Paglia is GOD! was Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:13:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.083248.27164@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>In article <1dv7hnINNa6@agate.berkeley.edu> Jason R. Pascucci <jasonp@PRIMERD.Prime.COM> writes:
>>
>Exactly.  And yet you seem to think that it isn't rape if a woman is
>"stupid" enough to get drunk and can't defend herself.  Maybe she
>should wear a tag saying, "I don't consent to any sex."  Would that
>suffice if she were too drunk to say yes or no?

Am I correct in inferring from this that you believe anytime a man and
woman engage in sex when the woman is drunk that it is rape? I'll buy
into that if the woman is passed out and cannot offer consent, but
this is absurd beyond that situation. It would seem that you suggest
that if a woman consents to sex with a man when she is impaired by the
influence of alcohol that this makes the man a rapist. Would you say
the same thing with the sexes reversed? If so, I've been raped in the
past (by this definition) - what's the statute of limitations, perhaps
I'll prosecute...

--steve harrington


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From: chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca ("Charles J. Savoie")
Subject: Re: Vietnam Women's Memorial Project Kicks Off Countdown to Dedication in 1993
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:41:17 GMT

In article <1du69kINNlub@agate.berkeley.edu> gatech!r-node.gts.org!ndallen@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Nigel Allen) writes:
>Here is  a press release from the Vietnam Women's Memorial Project Inc.
>
> Vietnam Women's Memorial Project Kicks Off Countdown to Dedication
>in 1993

[article deleted]

I'm not saying this is a "bad"(tm) thing in any sense of the word, and
correct me if I have the facts wrong, but doesn't anyone find it
strange that there would be a memorial for women who *served* in
Vietnam and elsewhere before there is a memorial for men and women who
*died* in Korea?

Just a thought,
Charles

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|   |--| |  | |   |<   |  |-  `-.   Charles Savoie  chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca
`'' '  ' `''' `'' ' ` ''' `'' '''   =====================================

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From: mgflax@phoenix.princeton.EDU ("Marshall G. Flax")
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Princeton University
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:50:50 GMT

In article <1dcj51INNgc2@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
>
>Victim: "Go away."
>Perp:   "I'm not going away until you let me kiss you at least."
>Victim: "If I let you kiss me will you go away?"
>Perp:   "Yes."
>Victim: "OK, I'll let you kiss me, but then you have to go."
>Perp:   "OK. ...  Ooh, that was so good!  How about one more."
>Victim: "No. You should go now."
>Perp:   "I know I should, and I said I would, but that was so good, I
>         really don't want to.  Don't tease me like this."
>Victim: "I want you to go now."
>Perp:   "No you don't.  The way you kissed me, I know you want it."
>Victim: "No I don't."
>Perp:   "Of course you do, or you wouldn't have kissed me like that."
>Victim: "No, I kissed you because you promised to leave if I did."
>Perp:   "Well, I'm not leaving now until you kiss me again."
>
>At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?
>
>I think it occurred at the last quoted line.  The perp made an agreement,
>then broke it, and demanded an additional sexual favor before performing
>as agreed.  At that point, as far as I'm concerned, it crosses the line
>into rape.

Sorry -- it actually occurred *much* eariler, at the second quoted line
above: "I'm not going away until you let me kiss you at least."
Tresspass, battery (touching her w/o her consent).  He *coerced* her
into physical contact, and that coercion was present for the rest of the
night.

marshall
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From: nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf)
Subject: Re: Camille Paglia is GOD! was Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:59:31 GMT

In article <Bxnw1G.39w@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Lenore Levine) writes:
>Jason R. Pascucci <jasonp@PRIMERD.Prime.COM> writes:

>>I could go on, she has so many quoteworthy phrases and
>>sentiments, but, basically, read the book...
>>A healthy attitude about sex, a healthy attitude about danger
>>and living in a modern society, a healthy attitude about men
>>and women, and the DIFFERENCES between them. All things
>>very nice, and necessary, to prosper in life. It's definitely
>>a two thumbs up.

>What about her comments about mathematics? Saying that the historical
>almost complete absence of women from research mathematics is not
>likely to (or shouldn't) change. Saying that mathematics represents a
>"masculine" way of thinking.

This may be one we've helped do to ourselves.

A few years ago some physiological research was done that demonstrated
that women were more likely to recover their speech after a left side
stroke than men. Shortly after this research was published, education
faculties nationwide developed a 'left brain == male, right brain ==
female' kick which many alleged feminists embraced. Agreeing with the
educators (who had seriously distorted the actual findings of the
original research) that women were 'right brained', this group of
alleged feminists proceeded to buy into many old myths about creative
and artistic women who of course, being right brained, were not
capable of doing mean, aggressive, masculine tasks such as
Mathematics.

Some women were influenced by these ideas, and decided to abandon the
sciences and technologies for the arts.

Some women who opposed this mass dash for creativity were shouted down
and abused as anti-feminist.

The right wing couldn't have done it to us better than we did it to
ourselves.

--
The Earth Pig Bourne....

nadja@node.com (prefered email address)
nadja@weitek.com

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From: llp7q@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Linda L. Phillips)
Subject: call for artwork and art papers
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:41:48 GMT

              CALL FOR ARTWORK AND ART PAPERS
               FOR THE SPRING 1993 ISSUE OF
               IRIS: A JOURNAL ABOUT WOMEN


IRIS features articles, original fiction and poetry, art, book
reviews, humor, news, and personal essays focusing on women's issues.
We write for an intel- ligent and varied audience of both sexes.  We
are a non-profit organization, staffed by volunteers, and publish
twice yearly, in November and April.

If you are interested in contributing to IRIS, please submit two clear
copies of all manuscripts, and use language sensitive to differences
in gender, sexual orientation, and race.  Follow the parenthetical MLA
style.  Final decisions rest with the editorial board.  Send SASE if
you wish your work returned.

Original artwork should be submitted in the form of high quality black
and white prints or halftones.  We welcome work pertaining to women's
issues and women's involvement in the arts, and are particularly
interested in featuring experimental, less conventional work.

Art features may be reviews, interviews, or essays on contemporary or
historical artists working in any media.  Features should be 500-1000
words, typed and double-spaced, and include black and white prints or
halftones of the work discussed.

                     SUBMIT FIRST DRAFT OR ABSTRACT BY JAN 8 1993

                          ADDRESS ALL CONTRIBUTIONS TO

ART OR ART FEATURES EDITOR,IRIS,BOX 323 HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER, UNIVERSITY
OF VIRGINIA, CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA  22908    (TEL) (804) 924-4500

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From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: Rape vs. Seduction
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Date: 17 Nov 92 03:51:22 GMT

In article <1dpiovINNoqd@agate.berkeley.edu> bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis) writes:
>Comments on a discussion between  uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU
>(Robert Hartman) and  dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch).  The
>discussion was sparked by the following quotation submitted by
>celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste):
>
> ... "If you don't submit, I don't know what I might do!"

>It's best to stick with conventional definitions so that people will
>know what you're talking about.  The usual meaning of 'rape' implies
>violence, or at least the serious threat of violence.  I would not call
>an incident 'rape' unless violence was present.

Do you mean "serious," or do you mean "explicit?"   If you mean
"explicit," then the issue of date rape is more tidy.  If the threat
is implicit or inferred but still present, what then?

>Robert:>I'm deadly serious.  I'm asking you.  Fits of pique aside, what _do_ you
>>call it?
>
>There is a perfectly good word to denote the sorts of scenarios that
>Robert et al.  have been discussing: 'seduction'.

Oh no.   That's not seduction in my book.  Seduction is using
pleasure or promises of pleasure to get a person to comply with
one's wishes.  "I'm not leaving until you do, is certainly not
that."

>Dan:>>Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
>>>buyer being the Victim.
>Robert:
>>But this is more akin to the door-to-door salesman who just won't leave
>>until you hand over your credit card.  YOu can't walk out because the
>>salesman is already in your _home._
>
>If we distinguish between armed robbers and unscrupulous salesmen, then
>we should distinguish between rape and seduction.

What about the robber who invades your house but doesn't really have a gun?
Is that not still an invasion and a robbery?

> ... In both cases the end
>result is the same, but I think the methods have to be taken into account.
>
>Robert:>Perhaps we need a misdemeanor rape for
>>cases in which no explicit threats of violence are used.
>Perhaps the problem is that there is no law against seduction (to my
knowledge).  Maybe there ought to be.

Hmmm.  At this point I think we're mincing words.  If you want to
call it seduction and make it a misdemeanor, fine.

-r

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From: llp7q@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Linda L. Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Call for Artwork and Art Papers
Date: 20 Nov 1992 15:27:13 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

              CALL FOR ARTWORK AND ART PAPERS
               FOR THE SPRING 1993 ISSUE OF
               IRIS: A JOURNAL ABOUT WOMEN


IRIS features articles, original fiction and poetry, art, book reviews, humor,
news, and personal essays focusing on women's issues.  We write for an intel-
ligent and varied audience of both sexes.  We are a non-profit organization,
staffed by volunteers, and publish twice yearly, in November and April.

If you are interested in contributing to IRIS, please submit two clear copies
of all manuscripts, and use language sensitive to differences in gender,
sexual orientation, and race.  Follow the parenthetical MLA style.  Final
decisions rest with the editorial board.  Send SASE if you wish your work
returned.

Original artwork should be submitted in the form of high quality black and
white prints or halftones.  We welcome work pertaining to women's issues
and women's involvement in the arts, and are particularly interested in
featuring experimental, less conventional work.

Art features may be reviews, interviews, or essays on contemporary or
historical artists working in any media.  Features should be 500-1000 words,
typed and double-spaced, and include black and white prints or halftones of
the work discussed.

                     SUBMIT FIRST DRAFT OR ABSTRACT BY JAN 8 1993

                          ADDRESS ALL CONTRIBUTIONS TO

ART OR ART FEATURES EDITOR,IRIS,BOX 323 HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER, UNIVERSITY
OF VIRGINIA, CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA  22908    (TEL) (804) 924-4500



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From: Lenore Levine <levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Germaine Greer (and disgust for the body)
Date: 21 Nov 1992 00:43:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

One of the things I really dislike about the writings of Camille
Paglia, is her expressed disgust for the female body; for example,
calling female genitals "ugly."

However, I do not feel any more comfortable with expressions of
disgust for the male body. One is the home I live in, the other
the home of those I love...

In particular, I read a quote from Germaine Greer in a popular 
magazine. They were quoting from her book on the menopause. 

I forget the exact words attributed to her; but basically, she
was saying that she did not have sexual relationships with
men her own age, because their bodies were too disgusting.
Some talk about fat, skinny, pot bellies, gray hair, bald, etc. --
I don't remember the exact words she used, I don't remember
what her preferred alternative is (women, younger men, herself,
sheep) but the tone of disgust was unmistakable. She wasn't
just expressing her preferences, she was implying that the
people whose bodies she did not prefer were repulsive.

Well, maybe this lady was quoted wrong, but if she was not --
how dare she talk this trash and call herself a feminist!

Being particularly interested in women's issues does not 
allow us to emotionally abuse other humans, just because
they are men!

Lenore Levine
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu

P.S. And you know what, Camille Paglia is gay and Germaine
Greer is straight. Figures...




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From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Origin of "womyn" spelling
Date: 16 Nov 1992 05:50:52 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1drcvlINN6ld@agate.berkeley.edu> kenm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (...Jose) writes:
>	Although I don't have the citation at hand, I have read another,
>less politically useful, derivation of "woman".  It is said to have, indeed,
>come from "wifman", but meaning "female person", corresponding to "wereman",
>meaning "male person" (comp. to "werewolf").  Of course, there is still
>the issue of how the generic "man" came to mean males, while the gender-
>specific term was retained for females.

I have such a citation at hand. The back of my American Heritage has a
chapter on Indo-European roots. It states that the root for the word
"man" originally meant the numan species, that the root form for male
human was "wiros" (leading to "virile" and "werewolf") and for female,
"gwena" ("gynecology"). It doesn't say how "man" also came to mean
"male."

So, technically, the sexist language-use is use of the word "man" to
mean male (rather than to mean humanity), since that is the usage that
is an appropriation/distortion, historically. We males should start
formulating a gender-specific term for ourselves to replace the sexist
"man." We could go around calling ourselves "viriles," for instance...
-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares


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From: boserj@netcom.COM (Jeffrey Boser)
Subject: Re: camille paglia
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:44:17 GMT

wkl1@ra.msstate.EDU (Wing-Keong Loke) writes:

>>Camille Paglia is an anti-feminist who calls herself various other
>>Her moral philosophy seems to be based on a notion of natural law.
>>From the facts that men dominate and rape women in pre-civilized
>>societies (one can argue about whether this is a fact, but she takes
>>it as one), she concludes that rape and domination are natural
>>aspects of the relationship between men and women.  Of course even
>>she does not conclude from this that they are good things.  But she
>>does conclude that because they are natural, it is unreasonable to
>>expect them to be eliminated, and anyone who behaves as if they do
>>not exist is behaving irrationally and deserves whatever they get.
>
>	Her theory is easily shot down: don't
>people commit murder in prehistoric times as a matter of
>natural law?
>--wkl--

Actually, your shot reinforces it.  Murder will never be eliminated,
but by understanding the motives and methods, we as individuals and
as a society are better equiped to deal with it.

I find her theory past due.  The feminist movement has resulted in
quite a few men changing their behaviors, quite a bit of self
discovery and growth, and a tremendous improvement in communication
methods and awareness.  Seems to me that masculinity has aspects
that women can benefit from too, and that trying to understand it
can only help.

Sexuality is expressed in many ways, and the lines between female
and male keep getting more and more vague.  I like having the freedom
to need comfort and cuddling and intimacy (the 'female'), as well
as the need for fast, agressive, feral sexuality (the 'male').  I
certainly am not going to deny either side to me.

....jeff


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From: johnston@fys.ruu.nl (Helen Johnston)
Subject: Re: Name changing
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:45:50 GMT

In article <BxxDG5.CKy@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> ohegarty@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca writes:
[the university took it upon themselves to change her name for her]
>                                        It infuriates me to think in the
>1990's a university would still assume that a woman is automatically
>changing her name when she gets married!
>It's bad enought socially when people assume you've changed your name, but
>when institutions do I feel frustrated and saddened...
>
>Anybody else had this kind of experience?
>
Yes, I also did not change my name upon marriage. When I got here to the
Netherlands I filled in all my forms with as "Helen Johnston", but one
of the forms asked details about my husband (if any). All of a sudden
all my mail comes to me addressed as "Dr Picard-Johnston". I would send
it back saying "no-one of that name here", except that it includes my
pay-check!
--
Helen Johnston       | Astronomye is an harde thynge and yvel forto knowe.
johnston@fys.ruu.nl  |      -- William Langland, Piers the Plowman
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