HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Too Silent, Too Vocal
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:05:34 GMT
	<lavukkINNk4n@west.west.sun.com> <13543@pogo.wv.tek.com>
Organization: University of Utah

In article <13543@pogo.wv.tek.com> roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud) writes:
     We have one practice drill called keri kaeshi were 10 hits are made with
     a single breath. 4 forward, 5 backward and 1 forward.  It really doesn't
     take any more effort than if you do all 10 with an inhale between.       

... when you're very, very good at it.  i played ;-> kirikaeshi for
three years before i could do it all in one breath.  after five years,
my performance is still variable.  i sometimes cannot do all the blows
in a single breath that is strong from start to finish.

i definitely agree with robert that the psychological effect of good
kiai can make a lot of difference.  of course the difference is not
just dependent on quantity.  even if you can kiai constantly, it is
not necessarily the best thing to do.  i've fought kenshi who kiai-ed
almost constantly, and the overall effect was lessened.

i also fought one kenshi whom i heard kiai loudly only once.  when i
sparred (i can't call it a fight) with this man, i was full of spirit
and kiai.  at one point, we came to a swordguard-to-swordguard impasse
(tsuba zeriai) and our noses were only inches apart.  to show him i
wasn't intimidated, i yelled right in his face.  before i finished, he
drowned me out with a scream that made me want to run home and hide
under my bed.

i have concluded that kiai not just a part of each technique, but is
in some sense a technique in its own right.  the target is not the
enemy's body, but his spirit.

(setq gnus-musashi-mode t)

the first cut is with the eyes; you must somehow perceive the
opportune moment to breach the enemy's defenses.

the second cut is with the spirit; make your enemy consider, even for
the briefest instant, the possibility that he might lose.

then comes the sword.

(setq gnus-musashi-mode f)

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (not so long)
Summary: Not a paradox, just a tough spot, calling for desperation solutions.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Date: 14 SEP 92 13:55:12    


ejdath@donner.uucp (25832-dath) writes...
>>stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>>>There's a paradox in women's self defense.  Typcially being on the
>>>... can't stress outfighting entirely ... and they can't stress infighting...
>>
Frank>>Not to suggest a heresy on rec.matrtial-arts, but I would think a 
Frank>>pistol would be the most viable solution to this paradox.
>                                                  ^^^^^^^
EJ>Also isn't this an improper use of the word paradox?  I certainly don't find
EJ>the above statements paradoxical, they are actually exactly what you would
EJ>expect.  I'm not sure which words I am searching for...how about, "damned
EJ>if you do, and damned if you don't".  Perhaps the answer to this problem is

EJ,
	Excellent points, including your correction of my imprecise usage.
	It is neither counter to common sense nor self-contradictory.

	It's more, as you suggested, a matter of trying to find a solution
	to a situation where the most common general solutions (limbs
	length kicking and punching/outfighting to keep the attacker away,
	and close range tactics to try to hurt them up close and personal)
	both have the significant potential to get you into trouble, unlike
	the theory proposed in some of the more simplistic self defense
	curricula (I don't believe Model Mugging fits into that category).

	So, the creative solution of trading off mobility for protection
	and also your additional suggestions all make perfect sense
	(and Frank's about the pistol) where the situation calls for them and
	where practical.  And most of them require less than lifelong 
	dedication to martial arts training.   Most of what is presented
	in the Model Mugging curriculum seems perfectly sound to me for what
	it is intended to do.

	I absolutely agree with the previous comments someone made about
	the psychological aversion to violent actions being a primary
	obstacle.  Once a person is under extremely invasive assault, 
	like halfway through a rape, they may well become aggressive, but in 
	some cases they might have been better off responding *earlier* with 
	some confidence, and that's a big area where the training has potential 
	to help them avoid the psychological trauma associated with 
	having an attacker reduce them to near helplessness.
	
>to be able to break holds and be able to run a good quarter mile time.  If
>the guy is still in pursuit a good shot with mace or just showing Smith &
>Wesson would probably do the trick.  This certainly cuts down on necessary
>training.
> 
>Oh, yeah! I really like the rolling under the nearby car idea.  I'm sure if
>this was done while screaming like a banshee and spraying a little mace
>around you could very easily discourage just about anybody or thing.
>Did you ever hole-up a skunk? Not a pleasent experience.
>E.J.

						thanks,

						todd
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: spooky kiaiissssss
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:19:53 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Sep10.121552.2449@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
>Those in throwing/grappling styles might well be advised to not
>practice kihaps, I have this BAD habit of kihapiing when I hit the

	You _have_ to exhale when you hit the ground or hit hurts so
much you won't be able to get up.  I don't yell so much as not hold my
breath, which gets knocked out of me with enough force to make a noise...
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:39:19 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Sep14.001351.21247@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>	BTW, knives incapacitate one way: blood loss, same as a gun.

	What about cutting tendons?  

>"rapid bleeding" is the name of the game, and knives just don't cut it
>against guns.  Knives are much slower for this than guns, and harder to 

	Straight thrust just below the sternum with a 5 inch blade?  Straight
down behind the collarbone close to the neck?  Across the side of the
neck?  And etc.  

	Actually, I agree with most of what you say, except for the idea
that a knife is somehow less lethal than a gun...

>	I would agree.  Boxing, karate, etc are nice hobbies, but they
>are just recreation.  They cannot hope to make up the difference between 
>115 and 230 lbs, nor between one person and a group of thugs.

	I disagree.  I once fought a person who couldn't have wieghed
more than 100 pounds. *She* hurt me badly.  Yes, it takes a *lot* of
training to make up for these kinds of differences, but it CAN be done.

	(No, it's not what you think!  I used to hang out at this gay
bar in Miami, and one day this, well, little dike picked a fight with
me.  Being a bit drunk  and feeling secure in my size and training, I told
her to do her worst, and she did.  It turned out she was a TKD instructor
who got her jollies picking fights with guys...  A further disclaimer; this
was at least 20 years ago and I'm quite a different person now, thank you.)

								W.rat
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Date: 12 Sep 92 16:57:01 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Sep12.063420.24017@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>In article <BuF0qw.3BD@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>>Andy V. seems to agree with Bobby Knight's statement that sometimes
>>women should just "lay back and enjoy it", rape that is.
>
>I don't recall his saying anything of the sort.

Neither do I. What Andy *did* point out is that, while the attitude and
self-confidence engendered by MM may very well deter attack in a lot
of cases, when it fails it's likely to fail catastrophically. MM is the
martial arts equivalent of pointing an unloaded handgun at an assailant. 
Most of the time, it'll work. *Most* attackers don't want to mess with
someone who *might* resist. But when it *doesn't* work you're likely to end 
up *very* dead. There aren't any instant solutions - if you want to be
competent at defending yourself you have to devote some serious time to
it. Anybody who says otherwise is selling something.

>He did, however, question the methiods of "model mugging", and point 
>out some parts of the program that might get a woman into serious
>trouble if the attacker had some experience with fighting.

Or if he's crazy enough not to *care* that she might hurt him. 

I think MM *does* do one thing right - it allows women to hit an
assailant and hit him *hard*. This is a Good Thing (tm). But *no* short
course is going to give you the kind of repeated drill that transforms
a technique into an instinctive response. If you're attacked, you're going
to be scared (*really* scared), probably exhausted, and almost certainly
injured (and I don't think they allow the "model mugger" to hit back, now
do they?). You won't be thinking clearly, in fact you probably won't be
thinking at all. Any response that has to be *remembered* - that isn't
absolutely instinctive and automatic - isn't going to work under those
circumstances. Bluffing is a very dangerous game. I don't recommend it 
when your life is at stake.

Dakin, from your previous posts I've inferred that you're a pretty big guy
(~200 lbs) and pretty strong. Even if you hadn't trained, do you *really*
think you'd have much difficulty overpowering a 105lb woman unless she
had a *lot* of training? Especially if you were *really* determined to hurt
her and hurt her badly? I don't think so...
Size and strength are tremendous advantages. It takes a *lot* of training
to be able to deal effectively with someone twice your size - whether he
has any real knowledge or not. You're just not going to attain that level
of capability from *any* short course. You *may* get lucky, your attacker
*may* be stupid, incompetent, or easily intimidated. Do you really want
to trust your life to luck? Gimmicks and motivational pitches are
no substitute for sweat. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: kicking from the ground
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 05:13:36 GMT

In article <BuJq3L.780@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>>You seem to have missed the first half of his remark (which radically
>>changes its meaning): He said, "If there is nothing she can do about
>>it, a woman might as well try to..." This isn't exactly a sensitive
>>remark, but it is _very_ different from the "women should just..."
>>attributed to him. The way he actually said it, it is essentially
>>an expression of fatalism, not perjudice against women.

>Ah, are you implying that a woman unable to resist rape should try to
>enjoy it?

_I_ am not saying anything of the sort. And I entire point was that
he didn't say anything about _should_. His remark was that doing so
wouldn't do any (additional) harm.

>I believe the implication that women can enjoy violent 
>rape may have been the thing that got some women round these parts
>riled up. 

I'd agree the remark was insensitive, but (in fact) I already
said that (try reading my post, instead of skiming it and filling
in the details based on your own opinions.)

                                             Frank Crary
                                             CU Boulder
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re- Savate and Muay Thai pr
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:12:48 GMT
Organization: Network Systems Corporation

In article <9209130442.AA17344@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> david_yeh@MACMAIL.MED.NYU.EDU ("David Yeh") writes:
>
>                      Re: Savate and Muay Thai principles (was Boxing and_
>hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes...
>> 
>>The commonly given analogy is that a Muay Thai kick is like a blow with a
>>baseball bat, and a Savate kick is like a blow with a ball-peen hammer.
>
>What's a ball-peen hammer?

A hammer which bears, in place of the claw thingie found in your usual
carpenter's hammer, a sort of a hemispherical business end, used in
metal working and so forth.

Follow-ups to rec.woodworking...

-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...Ch'en worked in a drugstore on the
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |second story...and at noon each day he
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |would leave for lunch in an eccentric
55428                |                |way: he would stroll out the window..."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Savate Info
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:42:22 GMT

A couple people have mailed me a request of sources (periodicals, etc)
on Savate, and I saw a request for films.  Besides the address of the
Boxe Francaise Savate Assoication that was posted, and besides looking
in the usuall magazines, I can offer the following:

Salem Assli has a series of 10 instructional Video's available thru
Panther Videos.  Panther is one of the main video companies with
video's on a WIDE range of art's made by top quality people such as
Bill Wallace, Kennet Funakoshi, Kanei Uchi, Tadashi Yamashita,
Augustine Fong, and a host of other's.  They usually have add's
in Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu, including little mini-catalogues.

Salem Assli is the Savate instructor at Inosanto's main academy.

The series includes the following:

Stretching and Conditioning
Savate Fundamentals
Beginner Offensive
Intermediate Offensive
Intermediate Offensive Volume2
Advanced Offensive 
Advanced Offensive Volume2
Savate Defensive
Savate Self_defense
History and Traditions


Panther Video has a toll free number at 1-800-332-4442.
For a Catalogue (If you don't want to place an order),
call 714-498-7765.

Or write to them at :

Panther Video
104 E. Ave
Junipero, San Clemente, CA  92672


They have an outrageous selection though.


Marty

Do
From: tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!))
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: *********************** Help with flexibility ****************
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:29:39 GMT
Organization: The Reality Liberation Front (pixels to the people!)

c8908461@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Robert Lang) writes:
>
>In addition to all that, I've recently aimed at increasing my stretch and
>it is dramatically increasing.
>
>my plan : morning dynamic stretches & 3 times a week or more complete
>dynamic & static stretch workout.

     So what is this "dynamic" stretching I keep hearing about? 

===============================================================================
Tom Swiss/tms@flubber.cs.umd.edu| "Born to die" | Keep your laws off my brain!
     "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe 
          This is a .signature antibody. Vaccinate your .sig!
     "I wasn't ready, man. I - I still believed in justice."
     "Your world entertains many quaint superstitions."
     -- Victor Milan, "Madman across the Water"
        (in _Jokertown Shuffle - Wild Cards IX_)
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (long)
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:36:48 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Distribution: usa
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Sep14.165634.19694@morrow.stanford.edu> CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates) writes:
>OK Warfie I will give this a try....

	These are all excellent tactics.  One thing you need to be
aware of is that a good counter-tactic is to throw things at the person
on the ground.  For instance, if you do this in a pool hall, your attacker
will throw cue balls at you which you will be unable to avoid from the
ground.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re:Boxing and Kicks
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:45:48 GMT


>04-Sep-92 21:52 stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) Re: Boxing and Kicks

>Sorry for tagging some extra stuff onto this topic, but I don't have the...

[kerchunk: lengthy exegesis on boxers...]

This was all very good rhetoric, however my original post had nothing to do
with ordinary MA'ers and Professional boxers (another kind of MA'er in my
view).  My point was that if I could be shown the efficacy of low-line kicks
and put them to effective use (as your everyday bonehead MA'er) in a period of
weeks, then certainly professional fighters can too.  My partner is no slouch
after all.  He used to fight 5 days a weeks, full contact kenpo for 11 years.
Generally speaking he beats up on everybody.  Most black belts avoid him.  In
fact black belts avoided him when he was a yellow belt.  So, here I am, lowly
student of Lu Ping Zhang, who got a hot tip and some pointers from another
excellent master (Barry Perrino), and suddenly I understood the profundity of
the low-line kick.  It is fundametnally unstoppable.

Now, think about one of my teacher's teachers--once again shamelessly mention
him, Cai Hong Xiang (5-time national champion of mainland China, full-contact,
Hua Mountain Shaolin-style kung fu).  Even at age 60, Lu Ping says he could
easily kick my head faster than I could possibly guard.  This guy is a
professional fighter, a "knock out specialist" as you say, who uses low-line
kicks, high-line kicks and amazingly fast flurries of punches (probably better
than a lot of professional boxers):

	What can you possibly tell me about the real utility of boxing
	over MA?  That *not* using your feet is better?
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: *********************** Help with flexibility ****************
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:13:15 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Sep5.041338.23455@cc.umontreal.ca> cholette@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Cholette Martin) writes:
>
> Hello, I have been training in the martial arts ( Karate ) for several years
> now and I still have a problem with my flexibility. When I train several
> times in a week, my muscles become stiff and sore due to overstretching I
> guess. 
>
	[hack]

> I would appreciate any help with this problem, also can you point out
> the right professional to see for this ie: M.D. or P.T. or O.T. ???

	Take up Taiji Chuan.

	-Andy
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Comparing styles - which one is best?
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:00:55 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

Well in architecture, I definitely prefer certain forms of Art Deco, as in
the Chrysler and Empire State buildings.  In cllothes, well anything in
5 1/2 inch heels does me just A-OK.  In sex... well, I'll leave that up to
your imaginings, I'm sure you'll all do fine... well MOST of you anyway.

I could go on, but it's 6:00 and I must leave for Tai Chi class.  Adios
mi amigos!

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re: Boxing...(once again...)
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:27:11 GMT


...he said, nearly bored to f*#king tears...

>08-Sep-92 16:29 fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)	Re: Boxing and Kicks

>Whenever I see phrases like "fundamentally unstoppable" I start to
>have doubts. If there were one single technique that was clearly
>superior to all others, no one would teach anything else.

Don't worry, I said this partly facetiously, understanding full well your
point.  

>Faster than you or I could block it, probably. Faster than _another_
>Shaolin master (e.g. one of equal skill) could block it? I don't
>think so, at least not consistantly.

Although it is true that Cai Hong Xiang's record attests that he defeated
some of the *very* best, this wasn't my point at all.  My point was to say 
that western boxing would be a joke, almost wholely impotent against him.

>Also, there are defences other than blocking that are _alot_ safer.
>Dodging/blending with the attack has one major advantate: Even if you
>can't avoid the blow, you still lessen the damage it will do.

Come on, I thought my personal as a t'ai chi geek was evident by now.
Of course there are many techniques, do you think Cai Hong Xiang doesn't know
those.  I gave you a portion of the picture.  Sheez, the man is a recognized
T'ai Chi expert.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: moore@esseye.si.com (David Moore)
Subject: Re: info Shorin-ryu
Organization: Smiths Industries
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:17:52 GMT

In <BtuDKu.210@dei.unipd.it> pibe@sabrina.dei.unipd.it (Sandro Tognana) writes:

Who are their teachers? I'm not familiar with Kyu do kan, but I've got
good Okinawan sources, so I can probably find out more.

>Could anyone give me any info. about the Shorin-ryu Kyu do kan style ?
>I am six mounth novice and my theachers are Fabian Perez and Oscar Higa.

>Many thanks.
>Sandro 
-- 
David Moore                    | moore@si.com
Smiths Industries              |
Grand Rapids Michigan          | my comments are my own -- not my employers'.
From: rcollins@cs.umass.edu (Bob Collins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Styles in Bloodsport?
Keywords: Monkey Kungfu, Sumo, Bolo
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:03:00 GMT
Reply-To: RCollins@cs.umass.edu
Organization: CS Dept, UMass at Amherst
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

There are also some Monkey KungFu scenes in a Chinese film
called "Fists of the White Lotus".

I don't recall any Sumo wrestling in Bloodsport.  I do remember
a Sumo wrestler in a movie called "Bloodfist", I think (ugh, what 
horrible titles these movies have).  Coincidentally, Bolo Yeung 
also appears in that movie, fights the Sumo wrestler, and defeats 
him in a hilarious fashion.

Does anyone know the background on Bolo Yeung (spelling?).  I
saw him in "Enter the Dragon", but his character name was Bolo
and his name given in the credits was something like "Yang Sze".
Is "Bolo Yeung" a pseudonym, or was "Yang Sze"?  What is his
nationality?  Is this guy a walking steroid, or what?

  --Bob Collins
  --RCollins@cs.umass.edu
From: 00njhavert@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Savate and Muay Thai ramblings
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:57:52 GMT


	I've studied both. Mostly savate and a bit of thai (just the
bare basics really - stance, kicking, elbows and knees, and baiting).
	They're both great arts, but not too similar, as everyone's
pointed out.
	I'm not sure what I can add to this thread. Ummm...oh yeah!
Someone mentioned something about Thai kicks to the head. This, as I'm
told, is usually done as an insult. This basically says to the guy "You
don't deserve to be in the ring, get out."
	Savate kicks are just so darned wacky. They'll come at you from
every which way and target your organs and leave tread imprints all
over you. Fun stuff.
	Thai kicks will chop you in half. Trust me. The lifting of the
knee is the only defense I've been taught, and it seems like that's
the only one there is. Sticking your arm down there is only going to
get it broke. Then there's the shin-to-shin thing someone mentioned
before. That hurts like hell. Some Thai boxers roll an empty Coke 
bottle on their legs to deaden the nerves in the shin. You'll some-
times see Thai boxers with blood clots on their legs from such nerve
deadening experiments.

That's all I can think to add. I really don't have a preference. The
elbows and knees of Thai are really fun too - I should add. Both arts
are wonderful and should be respected.

Nik
Wetoskey Academy of Martial Arts

P.S. Oh yeah, could whoever posted that address of the French Savate
Association or whatever repost it? Please!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts