From: reddyp@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Pardhasaradhi A. Reddy)
Subject: Re: INDIAN CULTURE - Subservient
Keywords: soc.culture.indian
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:07:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.013812.17579@massey.ac.nz> J.Ainikkal@massey.ac.nz (J. Ainikkal) writes:
>Every culture has its problems - only problems is that our
>culture has more than the usual. While I do not deny the glory
>of the past - there were things that went awfully wrong over the
>past 1000 years. Today we have a 'subservient' nation.
>
>

	You seem to appreciate the American culture over the Indian 
	culture for reasons you haven't mentioned. That is what is unclear.
	Instead of criticizing me, why don't you make things simpler 
	by explaining me why you think our culture is subservient to 
	the American culture.  Please, be specific and don't generalise
	like you did earlier. 

>And what U write  below is not.
>
>>Its is a well known fact that  US is a country without a culture
>>of its own. 
>
>I think that U are relating culture to history. Could U do me a
>favour and look up a dictionary and see what 'culture' means. Mac
>Donalds, cowboys, American English and the American version of
>Democracy is part of American culture.
>
>
 If that's all there is to American culture, i would sincerely like to
 know what is so great about it. If that is the definition of American
 culture, I am glad that's not Indian culture. Mcdonalds doesn't form
 a part of the American culture. Just because Henry ford invented the
 first motor driven vehicle, that doesn't form a part of American
 culture. That's only an achievement about which the Americans can be
 proud of. Culture is how we live in our society and how we interact
 with each other. American version of democracy is nice and i agree
 that democracy has little meaning when India is considered.

>>And it also true that India is a country with a culture that
>>finds its origins to years before Christ was born. And I am sure
>>many Indians are proud to know that. Just because, our culture 
>>disintegrated in the recent years owing to ignorance and 
>>fundamentalism, it doesn't mean that we should be ashamed of 
>>it.  
>
>I am not ashmed of the poverty of the people - I am not ashmed
>of the past grateness of the the subcontinent. What I am ashmed
>of is, as U put it, 'the disintegrat(ion) in the recent past
>(1000 years) owing to ignorance and fundamentalism'.  That is
>Indian Culture today.
>
>
	I am not saying our culture hasn't disintegrated. But, disowning
	it is like running away from reality. When you face a problem,
	you don't just criticize its origin but, you also suggest a way of
	getting over it. Anybody can criticize and deride other's work.
	But very few come up with constructive criticism. You are just
	criticising but not stating sufficient grounds based on which we
	can believe you. Dont' hit back saying that you don't care whether
	we believ you or not, but when you argue you should have some
	good info. to support your statements. 

>
>What do U blame illiteracy, poverty and subservience to? 
>
>OUR CULTURE. 
>
>We did not get into the position we are in because of the
>greatness of our culture. We were taught to 'OBEY' and we we got
>the best spiritual teachings in the world. But what did it also
>teach us - subservience. Never to question and think. We made our
>structures and powerful 'bullied' the masses. The culture took
>a turn for the worse. The masses were turned into 'sheep'. This
>is very prominent even today. A culture which promotes
>'subservience' is a disgusting one.
>
>Be 'humble and obey' - A great way to exploit.
>

	No one insists that one be humble and obey everything the priest
	says. if you wish to be a rationalist, you are welcome to be one.
	India has so many illiterate people and hence most of those 
	illiterates lack rational thinking. I don't blame the poverty
	but, i do blame the illiteracy. And educating everybody needs
	more public awareness about the necessity of education. And that's
	is predominantly lacking in India. That is what i was referring
	to.
	
>
>>And you claim that you rather have the  
>>human rights, pride (for what ?) and the wealth of an 
>>american. 
>
>U seem to be a great example of what our masses are but should
>not be. I personally would not consider myself a human being with
>an intellectual capacity if I did not have pride. Pride and
>belief in myself is an essetial component of my living self.
>

	I never argued that one should not have pride. Please, read 
	what i had written once more before you jump to wrong conclusions. 
	My question was about why you shouldn't be proud being an Indian
	while you claim that you would be proud to be an American. Before
	you putforth your feelings, give some consideration to how you
	can justify them on proper grounds. Don't just run around the fence
	saying i hate Indian culture because it is subservient. Be more 
	specific.

>>What human rights have you been denied if you 
>>ever stayed in India ?. 
>
>None - but look at India today - Kashmir, Punjab.
>

	It is not just the culture that is to be blamed. It is the fundamentalism
	and the ignorance that is prevalent, that is to be blamed. Passing a
	fatwa against a writer simply because he derided your religion, makes
	little sense. That's is far from culture. That's not what quran
	says. That's fundamentalism. A man's selfish attempt to misuse his
	power.

>>I don't know about you but i know a good no. of indians who have
>>no other choice but to live like cocoons within themselves
>>because they can neither accept the cultural veracity nor can
>>they stick to their own culture. 
>
>This again might be due to many rasons - one of which might be
>our 'subservient' attitudes. When we have problems looking at
>'whites', 'blacks' etc as 'equals' - we have problems with mixing
>with them.
>

	Its not that we have problems with mixing with those people. 
	We are by nature quiet and introverted. Have you heard Indians
	ever laugh or shout loudly on the streets ?. The blacks and the
	americans do. That's not subservience but is a different 
	attitude. If you like the American attitude, stay with it.
	But, don't misinterpret our way of maintaining low profiles.
	Its is not a weakness but could be civic sense. Its not
	decency to jump around like a nut when you're on the street,
	shouting foul language at other people. That's uncivic and
	inhuman. How can you expect that Indians to mix with such
	brats ?. Many americans i know are decent and very friendly.
	Sometimes even more sociable than fellow indians, but they
	also can be worse at times. We don't go to no bars like they do
	We don't get involved in bar fights like they do. Its the cultural
	veracity that keeps us within ourselves.

>I am surprised that U think that the above were 'ignorant
>babblings' and then U went on to so vehemently deny the
>'subservient' attitudes of our culture.
>
	I never denied that our culture is subservient but there is also
	some thing nice about it. Its isn't that bad when juxtaposed with
	your definition of American culture. It has its own pros and cons.

>>>We only live in the cesspool we create. 
> 
< stuff deleted>

	 Finally, my aim is not to mock up your views about Indian culture.
	 I don't care if you think Indian culture is worhless. But, before
	 you post your views, be more objective rather than being
	 subjective, thereby letting prejudice play a unwanted role. You
	 need not consider this as an advice. It is just a suggestion. I 
	 don't even insist that you agree with me. I respect your feelings
	 (not agree with them) irrespecitve of whether they coincide with
	 mine. I only made an effort to argue with you. Indian culture is
	 more than what we see in the newspapers. 

	 No offence meant.

	 Bye.
	 Pardha.