From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: rec.xenophobia (was Re: US as No. 1)
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:28:02 GMT

In article <C1JAoK.3Gr@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
>In article <1993Jan26.171515.10011@cas.org> jac54@cas.org () writes:
>>In article <1993Jan26.114023.28748@adobe.com> cjackson@adobe.com (Curtis Jackson) writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan22.220321.8579@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (james.w.lacey) writes:
>>>Americans look at other countries and see things by which
>>>Americans are not constrained:
>>
>>      This is a manifestation of a very American viewpoint: that
>>      freedoms are all-important with no cognisance of the
>>      responsibilities associated with those freedoms.
>
>For a few, however when one is FREE, one is FREE to take on the
>"responsibilities" or not.  For example with "Freedom of Speech"
>one may say what one wants.  Some misanthropes cluck their tongues
>at those who take advantage of their rights by saying what they want.
>They claim that they did not take proper "responsibility."  What
>they are really yearning for, these misanthropes, is the removal of
>that same freedom ["If there is no law against it, you must not take
>advantage of that right"].

	As I stated before, a society is not a collection of individuals,
	it is a collection of individuals willing to take responsibilities
	and give up individual rights for the sake of the group as a
	whole.

>>>Mandatory separation of college-bound vs. trade-bound students
>>>in the early/mid teenage years
>>
>>      On the other hand, by forcing all children to follow
>>      a uniform syllabus, essentially regardless of abilities,
>>      U.S. educational systems are extremely unfair to a very
>>      large fraction of their students.  Then you have the scam
>>      of charging the parents several thousand dollars to get
>>      them a college education that will advance them to a
>>      stage not much beyond that reached by their European
>>      contemporaries when they finished high school.
>
>Yeah, and that is why so many foreign students flock to US colleges.
>[even Europeans!]Come on, man!
>
	They flock to a few very good colleges, and primarily to a
	few very good graduate schools.  However, the most important
	education one receives should not be at college, it should
	be at grade school and high school.  This is where the U.S.
	measures poorly against other countries.

>>>Unreasonable (to Americans) search and seizure in the name of
>>>public safety
>>      This is the classic case of the American failure to connect
>>      rights and responsibilities.  In the name of the rights of
>>      the nutcases down the street to own a gun, I do not have the
>>      freedom to walk safely down that street.  Which is the more
>>      important freedom?
>
>No, your judgement translated says that people should not have
>privacy and protection against searches, that the police may do
>whatever they want.
>
	That's not what I said.  What I was getting at was the problem
	of individual rights vs. those of the society.  The nut in
	question was in the habit of wandering into the street and
	unloading a clip or two in no direction in particular.  Which
	is the more important freedom?  Answer the question.

>Americans have never fully trusted their government, so the constitution
>has allowed private weapon ownership (as a check vs. gov't power, and
>for personal protection).  In the long run people are better off being
>given the choice and chance to act responsibly than having their decisions
>shoved down their throat.  Now, we are in a (temporary) period where
>crime is increasing.  This too will end as it always has in the past,

	If a government really wants to shaft you, ownership of a
	gun isn't going to help.

>By the way, not all guin owners are "nutcases" (IN fact I would say
>most aren't, unless you are willing to condemn 100,000,000 people!)

	I never said they were, I was talking about one nut in
	particular.

>I would rather choose myself how to spend my time, please don't let the
>government decide for me!

	Shopping hours in Germany were agreed on between the union
	and the businesses.

>Why?  Are you in the habit of attacking law-abiding citizens who own
>guns?  Whay are you chilled?

	I recommend you go to the most recent issue of the Atlantic
	for a good reason.

>>>publicly, and they can stand in front of the White House and call
>>>the President a horse's ass as long as they're not so loud as to
>>>be considered disturbing the peace.
>
>Yes, but try that in Iraq (about Saddam).

	Don't start me on the Ba'athists.  In the context of the newsgroups
	you posted to this is something of a red herring.

>Or about the Queen in England (Its in the Law Books anyway)

	When was the last time that anybody was prosecuted for
	objecting to the Monarch?  Ye Gods, there is an active
	movement to get rid of the Royal Family.

	Alec