From: keith@acsu.buffalo.edu (Hawk)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: On the alleged cheating in the UB game....
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:27:26 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <53716@hydra.gatech.EDU> dsm@prism.gatech.EDU (Danny McGurl) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.220612.6797@acsu.buffalo.edu> keith@acsu.buffalo.edu (Hawk) writes:
>
>Disclaimer:  I didn't play in this game, and I really don't know who did. And
>despite what I say below, I'm not saying that anyone cheated!
>

>>2) After the Crybaby Whine and Snivel Over Victory Conditions, the
>>	deity (Rodina) quit. He left the running of the game to me.
>>	I suppose that left me with two choices, either stop the game,
>>	or run the game by myself. 
>
>Point of order please.  There is at least one other choice which is to 
>get someone to play your country so that you can diety without playing...
>
	Yes, it is also true that hindsight is 20/20. I will admit that
	I screwed up. But would you want to give up the number one
	country, in a good position to win the game?


>>Now, it's not like I could really tell the world what I was doing. 
>
>
>Why not?  Mayhap they would have believed you.  You could at least say that
>you were taking over as diety until a replacement diety or player (for you)
>was available.
>
	Yes, that point was made VERY clear to me by Icehouse. Like I said,
	I screwed up.


>>3) Dreadlands would have been done in the next few days anyway.
>>	Yes,  sorry to say, Mr Dread, but there was a co-ordinated effort
>>	to smoke you. Ask Mith, Cylamaron, Icehouse, or Commonwealth.
>
>The best layer plans... How exactly do you know 17 countries weren't going
>to attack you before this attack came on?  With that many people, they'd
>likely succeed, but there are no certainties in empire.

	I know what you are trying to say. But it would have been very hard
	to attack me, or Mith. My borders( except for Dread) were secure.
	and mith was my neighbor. Yes, it could have been done, but
	my country (and I dare say Mithriliens) was ready for
	an attack. 

>
>>	The fact that Dread and the Elf were bungling the management and the
>>	running of their country to a point where they were out of contention
>>	and THEN CHOSE TO BLAME THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS IN THIS GAME ON *ME*
>
>And how do you know they were bungling?  Did you look?  If not, it was
>said earlier that they were pretty high on the charts.  With that info
>how do you know they were bungling?  They could have (possibly) taken you
>out three minutes after the game went down...
>

	Actually, yes, after I took the game down, I *DID* look.
	And they WERE number three.. but they were number three by
	 A GREAT margin... 
	How can a country damn near start with 200+ sectors and not 
	be number one? Everyone else was sitting in their 40 sector
	start islands, and Dread had over 200? And he's only number 3?



>>	I find HIGHLY offensive. In the context of the game, I *TOLD* dread 
>>	that if he, or anyone else in the game, could prove that *I* had 
>>	cheated
>
>Proof of this nature is very hard to come by if you know what you (as a 
>potential cheating diety --not that you did) are doing.
>
	Yes, I understand that. But I HAD NO ACCESS to Larry's account.
	That stuff is FORBIDDEN here. So HOW could I change the 
	logs or anything like that?


>>	Then he told me he was going to quit. So what am I supposed to do?
>>	Sit and watch Mith demolish everyone else in the game?
>
>Wouldn't be the first time that Mith demolished everyone else :) :) :)
>
	No, and if Mith. chooses to re-enter the game, he is my vote
	for the winner. He is the best player BAR NONE left in the game..
	And he would whup me from here to next week if I was to attack him. :-)


>>	If I was cheating how come my tech was not number one? 
>
>	Because someone who cheated wouldn't admit to it later now would he?
> 	(Not that I'm saying you did. I'm playing the devil's advocate)
>

	I don't understand what you are trying to say here..

>>	I figured that I could trust myself NOT to do anything to alter the 
>	outcome of the game,
>
>	You, of course, could trust yourself.  The problem is that the people
>	in the game had no way to know to trust you... In general I trust
>	everyone at first, but for some things I only trust people I know
>	or that people I trust tell me to trust.
>
	Yes, that too has been beaten into my head for the past hour or so.
	Unlike you, I trust NO ONE at first. SO using my own logic,
	I should have NOT trusted myself. 

>>	WHAT is the POINT of cheating? Especially in Empire. Where's the thrill
>>	of winning with a super country? 
>
>	You obviously don't know some of the egoes in this game.  I've seen
>	cheating in several games, but I have no idea why cheaters cheat...
>
	I know some of the egos here. But most of the names I know
	I don't think would cheat. Or maybe I'm just assuming honor
	on everyone's part.

>
>>	has.) in the 0,0 sector, which was an lcm factory owned by h2s.
>>	As it turns out, there were a bunch of non existant ships
>>	there..
>
>Ah, so you know what's at the 0,0?  Maybe you looked after the game was
>down.  How do the players know?
>
	Yes, I did just peek, about 35 minutes ago. :-)

>
>The point of all this is that unless you know someone, you may not be 
>inclined to trust them.  
>
>As a side note, if you every plan to diety, expect the potential for a 
>lot of shit from players.  As Tom Bunch (aka Dwip from the Washington '89
>game) about it.  You have to be prepared to take it and let it slide...
>
>As a further point, changes (whether in code or victory conditions) after
>a games start, are very bad news...
>
	The only code changed Larry made were necessary ones.
	*I* convinced him to change the interest for bars.
	Everyone in the game was damn near broke. I also ran
	a multi-player game here at UB for nearly a year.
	Go ahead and ask Mithrilien about the Gal Trader problems
	UB had. Now THAT's a story and a half.



>
>-- 
>Danny McGurl                        "No, no Pixel!  Beer is not for baby cats."
>Office of Information Technology        --Richard Ames,
>dsm@prism.gatech.edu 		        __The Cat Who Walks Through Walls__


				C. Keith, LOF.