HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ericf@soul.tv.tek.com (Eric Feign)
Subject: Missoula, Montana to Edmonton, Alberta ride?
Originator: ericf@soul.tv.tek.com
Organization: Television Systems Division, Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 04:22:31 GMT

Hi all.  My wife and I heard recommendations for a Missoula to Edmonton
ride during a recent tour we went on.  Unfortunately, we didn't press for
details.  Has anyone ridden this route?  We picked up a set of AAA maps
(I hear you chuckling) for the area, but they're not very detatailed.  Can
anyone recommend a book that might cover this route, or parts of it, for
bicyclists, nameley the Banff or Jasper park areas?  Is there such a thing as
a department of the Canadian tourist office (or whatever it may be called)
that deals with bicycle rides, touring, maps, camping, etc?  I would greatly
appreciate any hints as to where I might write. Thank you,


Eric Feign  WB6BGV  
RF Product Development
Television Division
Tektronix, Inc.

Telephone:	(503) 627-2320

e-mail:		ericf@tv.tv.TEK.COM

US mail:	MS 58-772
		Tektronix, Inc.
		P.O. Box 500
		Beaverton, OR  97077

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Subject: Seattle Metro busses to receive bike racks
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 20:29:26 GMT


From "The Daily of the University of Washington", 1992 November 23.

Headline: All Metro busses to receive bike racks

by Peter Krause
Daily Staff

Cycling students who want to travel further, faster
will be happy to know that Metro plans to put a bike
rack on every bus next year.

Metro will scrap the 70 bike racks that are installed
on some busses and replace them with 1,300 new racks,
according to Bob Floor, Metro marketing development
planner.

One reason for the change in bike racks is that many
of the racks the agency uses spend more time on the
ground or in the shop than they do holding bicycles
to the front of the bus, according to a study by
Metro technical staff.  The racks must often be
removed for routine maintenance and when the bus is
being washed.

Metro estimates that because of this, only 45 of the
70 racks it owns are in operation at any one time,
according to the study.

And when the racks are attatched to the tbusses,
sometimes these busses are used on the wrong routes
due to driver error or bus scheduling conflicts,
Floor said.

``The service Metro offers now isn't used that often
because you can't depend on it,'' said Erin Laine, a
member of the Cascade Bicycle Club and the Metro
bicycle Committee.  ``If you have any time schedule
at all, you don't use it.''

Metro uses bicycle racks on six of its routes that
cross the Interstate 90 [for which there is a bike
lane] and State Route 520 [no bike lane] bridges,
taking bicyclists from downtown Seattle and Montlake
to places such as Kingsgate, Redmond and Eastgate.

There are no numbers on how many bicycle riders use
the existing bike racks, but based on what other bus
systems have experienced, Metro technical staff
estimate that up to 2,400 cyclists a day will use the
new bike racks once they're installed on every bus.

Metro estimates that bicyclists are willing to pedal,
on average, three miles to a bus or rail facility to
hitch a ride on public transith with their bikes,
according to the study.

Having set the goal of a bike rack for every bus in
1993, the agency's taks now is to decide on
financing, a design and a builder, according to
Floor.l

metro staff hope to receive a grant from the Federal
Transportation Administration in June to help pay for
the racks, according to Floor.  But bike rack
manufacturers probably will be asked to bid on the
valuable contract before then, he said.

Metero will probably end up spending about $200 to
$300 for each of the new racks, which would amount to
a $260,000 to $390,000 contract, according to floor.

[As it is now, the busses with racks that go across
520 have strange schedules; for example, some
communities are serviced with racks only on weekdays
during rush hour, while other communities are
serviced only on weekends.]

	;-D on  ( Trials and tribualations of travel )  Pardo
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: new year's resolutions
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:13:27 GMT

gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu (Gregory D. Surbeck) writes:
>Terry's post a few days ago got my mind on the subject.
>Does anyone want to share their cycling resolutions for the new year?
>Does anyone want to report resolutions for 1992 that succeeded (like
>the Century-a-Month challenge)?  That failed?

Im planning on a double-century.       
-Terry
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: new year's resolutions
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:51:43 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> 
>    gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu (Gregory D. Surbeck) writes:
>    >Terry's post a few days ago got my mind on the subject.
>    >Does anyone want to share their cycling resolutions for the new year?
>    >Does anyone want to report resolutions for 1992 that succeeded (like
>    >the Century-a-Month challenge)?  That failed?

Successful resolution for 1992: Ride a hilly century in under 4:45

Resolutions for 1993:

(1)Finish $%^&(* thesis
(2)Get Job
(3)Get some new running shoes
(4)Get a new frame
(5)Get back into duathlons.

Anyone care to offer me a high-wage low-hours job in New Zealand?

Jonathan,
Hamilton (surrounded by 1000's of km of sealed, quiet country roads of varying
terrains...just though you'd like to know).

From: Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:41:26 -0500

John Ciccarelli talks about bike paths:

 JC> A) Freeway overcrossings ("bike/ped bridges")
 JC> B) Freeway undercrossings (usually along waterways)
 JC> C) Creek overcrossings (bridges) where no motor vehicle crossing
exists
 JC> D) Short street-to-street connectors (e.g. between dead-ends)
 JC> E) Long street-to-street connectors (e.g. across fields)
 JC> F) Parking-lot connectors

 I'm glad to see that Palo Alto has found a way to make some useful
bicycle
 facilities, but most of us wouldn't classify those as bike paths. All
the
 bike paths in Houston, on the other hand, are of the purely
recreational
 variety.

 JC> Agreed -- I don't know of any "bike-only" paths.  "Bike paths" is
a
 JC> misnomer because keeping peds off them is unenforceable.
"Mixed-use" is
 JC> more accurate.

 This is exactly what we hear from the City of Houston; thus they go out
of
 their way to make such paths more desirable to pedestrians, and less
desirable
 to cyclists.

 JC> Construction funding grant applicants must usually state that they
have the
 JC> money to maintain the project once constructed. Cities assign
different
 JC> sweeping policies: streets usually get swept weekly or biweekly.

 What a novel idea, sweep bike paths. This is unheard of in most
cities.

 JC> Methinks you exaggerate.  While I often reduce speed on off-street
paths
 JC> and shortcuts, the distance saved or traffic avoided often makes
them
 JC> attractive.

 I have yet to find a bike path that saved any time.

 JC> I've gotten more flats on-street than on the little off-street path
riding
 JC> I do, maybe perhaps because people around here throw (and break)
glass
 JC> bottles from cars more than on paths.

 I have exactly the opposite experience. I had four flats this year,
over a
 10,000 mile riding distance. Three of those flats were on short bike
paths.
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:54:51 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Dec27.050700.4835@eng.umd.edu>, gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu (Gregory D. Surbeck) writes:
> In article <Bzvv1F.FFC@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>>I'll start...a Pearl Izumi long sleeve Thermasof jersey and a matching
>>jacket.
>>-Terry
> 
> For Hanukah: full-finger cycling gloves, back-up pair of brake pads,
> vistalite ultimate safety light, turbo saddle, neoprene socks (I seem
> to be the only person in the world to get cold feet in >40F weather
> :-), bike computer (ACT, I like it)
> 
> 	Have a good new year!
> 	-Greg
> 
Man,  do you have it good Greg!  Maybe my cycling pressies aren't as good as my
family doesn't practice Hanukah anymore.  One of my cousins is a Rabbi
though...I wonder if he cycles?

Jonathan.
From: flatau@cs.utexas.edu (Arthur Flatau)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 28 Dec 92 19:21:57 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu

In article <725257867.AA07440@urchin.fidonet.org> Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber) writes:
>"Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com> writes:
>
> MS> what I hate is our *overreliance* on cars.
>
>I certainly can't disagree with you on that point. For most people in
>the U.S., cycling and walking are not even considered as a possible
>alternative to driving. A simple trip to the store, one block away, must
>be done in a car. Store clerks automatically ask you such things as,
>"Can I help you carry your groceries out to your car." When you tell
>them that you arrived by bicycle, you might as well have said flying
>saucer.
>

Reminds me of one time several years ago, when I lived about 1 block
from a grocery store.  I walked there, got my groceries.  After paying
and having the stuff put in the bag, the bag girl asked to carry out
my groceries.  I answered that I could manage.  The girl insisted.  I
pointed out I was walking anyway.  She said she would get in trouble
if she did not carry out the groceries (this was a new policy).  We
walked out (she carried the bag).  Once outside, she handed me the
bag and I went on my way.

This post has little to do with bicylces.

Art
From: dkw@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:38:06 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University Computer Science

In article <19921221.071155.364@almaden.ibm.com>, pershng@watson.ibm.com (John A. Pershing Jr.) writes:
 the BRP is a divided highway so that, for the most part, all of
|> the people are going the same direction.  Everything else is the
|> essentially the same:  an intermixture of would-be racers trying to
|> ride as fast as possible, family groups including 5-year-olds on
|> tricycles, pedestrians, roller skaters, people who can barely balance
|> on a bike, etc.


This sounds disturbingly like auto drivers complaining about
bicyclists: they're slow, they swerve, you never know where they're
going. 

Where do you want these people to ride?  If people are going to
bicycle at all, they must learn somewhere.  I hope my daughter will
want to ride a bicycle eventually, and I can imagine that she would
get frustrated if restricted to the 100 or so yards of our street.
My wife and I average 12 mph.  Many people in this forum claim to
average 24 mph.  If we can't share a 2 lane (per direction) highway
with no cars, how are we going to ride on a 1 narrow lane (per
direction) with cars?

I have ridden on several roads when they were closed to auto traffic,
and found that the riders weren't as skilled as those I normally meet
on the roads.  With the extra road width, I didn't think I was in any
more danger than  on  the roads I normally commute on.  I did have to
change my style of riding somewhat.

--David Wittenberg
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Date: 29 Dec 92 13:49:28 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

A Cateye Astral,  with everything you could imagine (damn, no compass).

Jonathan (aren't Jewish grandmothers great?)

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:17:38 GMT

I'll start...a Pearl Izumi long sleeve Thermasof jersey and a matching
jacket.
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ae505@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank Krygowski)
Subject: Re: Drawing lines
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:35:41 GMT


I agree precisely with Howard Gerber.

Marc San Soucie wrote:
"Trash should be swept off the road by the local road crew.  You 
can help make that happen by persistently reporting dirty bicycle
lanes and shoulders, and getting your cycling friends to do the 
same."

Impractical.  My experience (or rather, our experience ... there
are several of us) is that we have to choose carefully which issues
we are to complain about.  If we call the city or county with 
complaints that are, let us say, excessively picky, we'll be
labeled crackpots, then ignored when more serious matters arise.

Thus, I'm not going to call to say: "There's gravel and crumbs of 
glass at the far edge of the road on the hundreds of miles of roads
I choose to ride.  Sweep it all clean for me."  They won't rush 
out with the street sweepers.  They can't afford to!

Likewise, they won't stripe off a bike lane on most roads.  Here,
the number of cyclists is too small to justify the expense.  The
county engineer has real budget problems.  He's got to spend the 
money where it does the most good.

Getting lots of cyclists to call and complain won't work either,
because most cyclists don't think separate lanes and lots of 
sweeping are necessary!  The fact is, we are each riding 
thousands of miles per year by taking our place in traffic, acting
like legal vehicles, staying out of the gravel and glass, and doing
just fine!

(In fact, if I polled our area cyclists and asked if they'd rather
have county road money spent on striping/sweeping or on paving
rough roads ... well, I KNOW what my cycling friends would say!
I've heard them compain about potholes, but never about a lack
of a striped lane!)

I must admit, though: there's a chance that if we had bike lanes 
everywhere, some more folks would try riding to work or the stores.
I don't believe they'd be safer, but they'd think they were.

What are things like in Oregon, Marc?  Do you have separate lanes
everywhere?  I've not been there since 1970.

Frank Krygowski  ae505@yfn.ysu.edu
From: Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: new year's resolutions
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 11:14:06 -0500

Gregory D. Surbeck  <gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu> writes:

 GDS> Terry's post a few days ago got my mind on the subject.
 GDS> Does anyone want to share their cycling resolutions for the new year?

I'll make it to lose the 15 pounds in my middle. That in itself should improve
my hill climbing.

 GDS> My personal favorite solution:  planned, unmarked, wide right lanes.
 GDS> What's wrong with them (to be read with the same tone of voice as my
 GDS> what's wrong with bikeways question -- neutral)?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with building such roads. They're probably the
safest place for cyclists to ride. Many of the rural highways in Texas are of
that type. Wider outside lanes have the advantage that the road surface lasts
longer, since motorists have less tendency to drive off the edge of the paved
surface.

John Gaynor -- a member of the Texas D.O.T. and our regional bicycle
representative to the D.O.T. -- pointed this out to me at a meeting last year.
He made it clear that although this kind of road benefits cyclists (and John is
a cyclist, too), the best argument when talking to government officials is that
while the initial road construction costs more, it saves the state lots of
money over a five year period.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: kimmel@staff.tc.umn.edu (Eric Kimmel)
Subject: Re: Whatcha get for Christmas?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 00:25:20 GMT

In article <Bzvv1F.FFC@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>I'll start...a Pearl Izumi long sleeve Thermasof jersey and a matching
>jacket.
>-Terry

A Cateye Cyclosimulator for the long long long winter months here in Minnesota.

-Rick
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu (Gregory D. Surbeck)
Subject: Re: Bikes unwanted at U-Michigan (or U.Texas!)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 04:14:49 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park

	Seems like every time you get pedestrians and cyclists
together disaster strikes!  Hiker-biker-equestrian trails don't work
because of the unpredictability of pedestrians and sidewalks don't
work because of the unpredictability of cyclists!
	A friend of mine once got angry at me for riding on a sidewalk
adjacent to a busy street.  Sidewalks are for pedestrians, not
bicycles, he told me.  His point was that bicycles have to be
respected as vehicles like automobiles or they will be relegated to
special paths, just like people on the net fear.
	The other problem with cyclists using sidewalks is
responsibility.  A pedestrian (even a runner) can only go so fast. 
Bicycles can easily quadruple the walkers' speed.  With that ability
comes the responsibility that we can't knock the pedestrians down.
Unfortunately I have seen (and been in) accidents where the pedestrian
simply can't make up their mind.  In compensating, imitating the best
slapstick movies, the ped and the bike run into one another.  A
pedestrian walking on a sidewalk is prepared to get out of the way of
another walker, maybe a runner (at twice his speed, for simplicity).
A bike traveling 4 times as fast can't be avoided in time.
	Why does the ped expect only other peds?  Because it's the
law, and because it's what walkers have come to expect.  In the state
of Maryland, bicycles are not allowed on sidewalks, only specially
designated trails.  They are considered vehicle, just like cars except
non-motorized.
	Second, how reasonable is it for a bicycles to expect a path
to be cleared for him on a busy sidewalk?  At the Univ of Md, we have
50,000 people on campus, many of whom pass through the center of
campus.  How reasonable is it to expect many people to get out of the
way of one.  For a ped pushing his way through the crowd, it's much
easier.  But a bike needs 4 times as many people cleared out in a
given time.  That's hard.
	On busy university campuses, which I would guess U.T. and
U.Mich are since they are state schools, bikes should not be on busy 
sidewalks.  They become non-motorized vehicles; with all the benefits
and restrictions that class gives them.

			Greg Surbeck
			gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:04:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Gregory D. Surbeck (gsurbeck@eng.umd.edu) writes:

> 	Going back to my comment about traveling on roads without
> shoulders:  I am not afraid to travel at 15 mph on a 45 mph road.  I
> consider it rude.  When someone takes a rural highway, he planned on
> doing 45 mph.  Then here is this cyclist doing 30 mph below the speed
> limit!

It is never rude to cycle on a road if that road takes you from where you 
are to where you want to be. That is exactly what the motorists are doing. 
It is equally rude of them to impose their assumptions on you.

Sure, the speed differential causes problems from time to time. But these
are best addressed by getting the relevant jurisdiction to fix its road,
and/or by getting the motorists to live a little more calmly, and not
become so perturbed by the occasional delay.

Heck, out here motorists have to watch out for tractors and other 
implements almost as often as for bicycles. They go even slower than 
bicycles, and take up more space!

The road's a public place. Share and share alike.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
From: Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bike paths (FROM Re: Cycling and Environmentalism)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1993 14:06:40 -0500

In a message to Gregory D. Surbeck, Marc San Soucie writes:

 GS> Going back to my comment about traveling on roads without
 GS> shoulders:  I am not afraid to travel at 15 mph on a 45 mph
 GS> road.  I consider it rude. When someone takes a rural highway,
 GS> he planned on doing 45 mph. Then here is this cyclist doing
 GS> 30 mph below the speed limit!

 MSS> It is never rude to cycle on a road if that road takes you
 MSS> from where you are to where you want to be. That is exactly
 MSS> what the motorists are doing. It is equally rude of them to
 MSS> impose their assumptions on you.

I totally agree with you, Marc, cycling on public roads is in no way "rude,"
but let me take that a little bit farther.

Gregory tells us, "When someone takes a rural highway, he planned on doing 45
mph."  This somehow is supposed to imply that the minimum speed on this road is
45 or that anyone who can't keep up is being rude, crude and ugly.

Speed limits are not natural laws like the speed of light. If a maximum or
minimum speed limit is set at 45 mph, that is because many of the motorists who
use that road -- at least those who are influential with those who impose the
speed limits -- feel that 45 mph is an appropriate speed for that road. Someone
who owns a fast car or the driver of an 18-wheeler may feel that 45 mph is too
slow, but the faster motorist has no right to force other motorists or cyclists
off the road. Speed limits are determined by local politics, road surfaces,
road width, proximity to schools, and the capabilities of motorists. Rarely are
bicyclists even considered in the picture.

       __ o    Howard Gerber   Two Wheelers: 713-682-6508
  . . <   \ .  USENET:  howard.gerber@urchin.fidonet.org
 :   : > :   : ...!menudo.uh.edu!jpunix!urchin
  ` `     ` `  Fidonet: 1:106/88.0    PODNet: 93:9008/0.0

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc