HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leighann@rocky.sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Reconciling BDSM and Pagan Beliefs
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:27:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Black Oak

In article <1992Nov6.223542.24944@u.washington.edu>, mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
|> 
|> We run a big risk in reacting to oppression of becoming oppressors, or
|> self-oppresssors, ourselves.  Standards of beauty have been used to hurt
|> women; there's a temptation to reject female beauty and to harass those
|> who are concerned or appreciative of it.  White supremacy has been used
|> to hurt people of other races; there's a temptation to say that no white
|> person should ever feel pride or pleasure in his/her race or culture.
|> But this is just replacing one oppression with another; it's no closer
|> to freedom.
|> 

Amen.  This is the clearest, most concise distillation of this belief
(which I share) that I have ever seen; especially the last two lines.
It's not the "matri" or the "patri" I have the problem with -- it's the
"archy"!

B*B
	- Leigh Ann

----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey                                            CoG #151E
leighann@sybase.com     {sun,lll-tis,pyramid,pacbell}!sybase!leighann
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:25:27 GMT


ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:

>drop the gun shop talk and get on with how to prevent the need for them in 
>the first place! Here's some questions that I hope spark ideas.

	Sure!
>	Who robs us? Why do they need our money? How can we prevent them from 
>needing to take it from us by force?

1)  Those with parisitical or predatory personalities.
2)  Because they veiw other human beings as resource generators
	and their rightful place as harvesters of those resources.
3)  Surgical erasure of the problem personalities?  Lobotomies?

>	Who rapes us? Why? How can we remove their need to rape?

Subset of group above.

>	Who murders us? Why do they feel they must do so? How can we make sure 
>that they no longer feel this way?

Ditto.

>	Working towards a positive solution is always better than partici
>in a battle. Sometimes we must fight. I know this. I have been amazed at the 
>multitude of ways that the fight can be avoided or won without violence (see 
>previous post on self-defence), but I agree that sometimes we must. Yet there 
>must also be a way to address the reason why the conflict is there to begin 
>with. Protecting ourselves is up to us. Which is better, a nation of armed 
>paranoid people waiting for something to start, or a nation trying to find a 
>way to prevent the need/desire to commit crimes? I know where I'd rather live.

Both.  That was fun!

>			- Ashley
Jim Del Vecchio

*(A nation of armed paranoid people trying to find a way to 
prevent the need/desire to commit crimes)

PS	Narcotics can be very sedating even to violent people.  Perhaps a
more practical alternative would be to distribute free heroin, methadone,
dilaudid, or the like in high crime neighborhoods.  Unlike surgical
remedies, which require the perp to first be identifed (no mean feat
when you consider that a typical perp will have a quite a number on
heinous accomplishments on his resume before he is detected), this 
treatment will have no shortage of volunteers.   Whatever their personality
disorder is that makes them enjoy hurting and stealing, I suspect that
the bulk of them would still find spending their prowl times in a 
blissful daze to be more rewarding.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:32:16 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov22.181019.29863@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
> I've said often enough that I believe there are essential differences in the
> nature of men and women; women don't Gaybash.  Men do.  

Ward Chanley, meet Anita Bryant...
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: the Deteriorata
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Nov 92 05:24:59 GMT

Finally found it!  I knew I had it around somewhere!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
				===========
				Deteriorata
				===========
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Go placidly amid the noise and waste,
And remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep.
Rotate your tires.
Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself,
And heed well their advice, even though they be turkeys.
Know what to kiss and when.
Consider that two wrongs never make a right,
But that three lefts do.
Wherever possible put people on "HOLD".
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
And despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.
Remember the Pueblo.
Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.
Know yourself.  If you need help, call the FBI.
Exercise caution in your daily affairs,
Especially with those persons closest to you;
That lemon on your left for instance.
Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls,
Would scarcely get your feet wet.
Fall not in love therefore; it will stick to your face.
Carefully surrender the things of youth: birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan,
And let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
Hire people with hooks.
For a good time, call 606-4311.
Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog
Is finally getting enough cheese;
And reflect that whatever fortunes may be your lot,
It could only be worse in Milwaukee.
You are a fluke of the Universe.
You have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not,
The Universe is laughing behind your back.
Therefore make peace with your God whatever you conceive him to be,
Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin.
With all its hopes, dreams, promises and urban renewal,
The world continues to deteriorate.
Give up.

>From the National Lampoon Radio Dinner album.

That "Rotate your tires" had me on the floor.  Hope you like it!

Blessings,
Janis
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:34:59 GMT
Organization: ABB Systems Control Company, Inc.


In article <1992Nov14.003413.8356@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes...

>>	Now I own a handgun. I look down at the piece of cold metal and 
>>rubber resting uncomfortably in my hand and I feel sick. This thing was 
>>made for the express purpose of killing human beings. I don't like it. 

> 
>	It's all in your head.  Your grandpa's hunting rifles are
>even more deadly.
> 
> 
>JD	

	I know that the old rifles can blow bigger holes in people and kill 
more people over a greater distance. But they wheren't designed specificly for 
the purpose of killing *people*. Grandpa used them to kill deer and bears. 
There where plenty of those in his time. He shared the meat with the whole 
neighborhood when we had more than the family could use. His guns don't bother 
me.

	This gun was designed to kill *people*, not deer or bears or even 
rabbits. Reasonable people don't go hunting with a handgun. They are for crimes 
or defense, in either one they are intended for use on human beings. That is 
what makes me uncomfortable with it.


			- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Care & Feeding of Staves
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:34:38 GMT

In article <lgfr0sINN97u@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>In article <1e527jINN917@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary) writes:
>> 
>> What we were wondering is, what kind of oils do you
>> recommend using on staves besides linseed oil? Anything special we should
>> do to them? 
>
>I'm not sure if this would work as well on a large-scale project, but it
>worked great on the wands I've made.  I rubbed oil of patchouli on my oak
>wand and carnation essential oil on my hawthorne wand.  It polished them
>beautifully and the smell lasted for months.  I've redone them several
>times now.  Both wands are 2-3 years old now, so it looks like essential
>oil doesn't hurt the wood.  And the smells have really sunk down in by
>now.

I used to work with a cabinet maker many years ago, and he used linseed
oil on all of his work. This can be gotten easily and cheaply at any store
that caters to the woodworker, i.e. lumberyards and hardware stores. My
friend used to take the linseed oil and some beeswax, and heat them together
in a double boiler until they mixed. He'd then brush this on and rub it
down with a soft cloth. It adds a beautiful luster to the wood as well as
acting as a preservative.

Bb,
Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |    My opinions *are* those of my boss, because
  Dark Horde by birth  |   he is me, and I am he, and we are all together.
    Moritu by choice   |                 Coo coo cachoob.
From: nlp@pacvax.pacersoft.com (Nancy Pilsch)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:53:12 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Distribution: na
Organization: Pacer Software, Inc.

In article <1ef8rpINNeli@interceptor.ksu.ksu.edu>,
lazarus@interceptor.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith) wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey, this could also have been cross-posted to Alt.Tasteless and 
> Alt.I'm.so.fucking.bold.to.post.this.that.I.won't.even.include.my.name.
> 
> Anyone else here unimpressed?

Oh very!  Maybe the person who posted this would like to be brave--like the
women who chose to abort the fetus--and come forward and let us know why
he/she posted this here?!!!
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 11:36:53 EST
From: <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Distribution: usa
 <Bxz1q0.HA7@access.digex.com>

In article <Bxz1q0.HA7@access.digex.com>, corun@access.digex.com (Corun
MacAnndra) says:
>
>This is true. But do you really believe that you'll be able to use that
>fraction of a second to draw a gun, release the safety, cock it (if
>necessary),
>and fire it effectively any faster than you could use hand to hand combat
>techniques, or, better yet, run away and scream your bloody head off?

There is an old saying to the effect that "One with an experience is
never at the mercy of one with an opinion". I have been in precisely
the situation described, faced by thugs who burst into an area
everyone thought "safe". I was armed. I survived.

I am rather disheartened by the knee-jerk response people often offer
as a proposed solution for anyone caught in such a situation,i.e.,
"run away and scream". This is wrongheaded thinking and elitist,
in that it completely ignores the millions of aged and/or disabled
persons in America who CANNOT run away. They simply physically cannot.
For similar reasons, martial arts *philosophy* can be of benefit
to this segment of the population, but a great many of them are
physically unable to practice the various hand-to-hand combat techniques.
What are we to do, write these people off as "expendable" or as,
to use Mao Tse-Tung's term, "useless eaters"? I, for one, am not
willing to do that.

>
>But she's right. Why get upset about that?

But of course she is - in her own fantasy world view. A better question
would be how might we help alleviate whatever stresses bring about
such a distorted interpretation?
>
>But she's not comparing guns to other implements that can be used as weapons,
>she's pointing out how people get caught up in glorifying guns to the point
>of near deification. Again, she's right. Guns are made for one thing, killing.
Oh, please. The silly "guns are for killing" whine has already
been adequately debunked by other posters. The cardboard scenario
at an imaginary gun shop only lends credence to points I have
already made.


>I got a good chuckle...
>
Out of the civil rights movement? I fear I cannot see the humor.
>
>Let's start a conversation about how to cure the ills of society. Once we've
>cured the psychoses and neuroses that make the rapists and murders, once
>we've abolished the causes of violent crimes, then the rest will take care
>of itself. But this continuous bantering about whether a gun is an assault
>rifle or a hunting rifle and the advantages of one type over another is
>senseless and futile. Don't ban the guns, ban the uses to which they are put.
>Greater social consciousness is what's needed, and you can't regulate that
>with a bunch of laws.

With that I wholeheartedly agree.

WKG
From: traite@eros.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:56:10 GMT
Organization: Statistical & Data Analysis Center, Harvard University

kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) asks about scummy
behavior of Pagan Males.

 __Examples of sexist and/or abusive behavior omitted for bandwith___

.>I know they will run out of cute leg showing women soon, because there
.>are not that many who work there, but I do find it irritating.  And it
.>shows part of what it takes to survive in patriarch's world if you are
.>a woman.

-agreed.

.>I can think of plenty more, these just leapt to mind as examples of
.>men's scummy behavior both within and without our community.  I would
.>be interested in hearing others examples of men's scummy behavior
.>within the pagan community.   Or am I the only one who notices this
 .>It has been said that men within the pagan community were
.>different than men outside the community in their relations to women.
.>I have said this is not very true.  What do others think?
 
 IMHO, There are good men and not so good men in the pagan community as
there is in most communities (I admit I not so sure about the
Neo_nazi's).   I don't think that just because someone calls
themselves Pagan/Wiccan they necessarily are not abusive.  I evaluate
someone on their behavior, actions, attitudes NOT on their religion.

I can find good and not so good in every community.
In the best of all possible worlds, If everyone lived up to the tenets
of their religion (Whatever it is), the world would  indeed be a wonderful
place.   In my travels, I've only met a few people who really do live
by the tenets of their faith at all times. (Myself included.)  

Blessings.

___
Shirley Traite (traite@sdac.harvard.edu) |I only speak for myself.
Statistical Programmer                   |
SDAC/Biostatistics Dept.                 |
Harvard Sch. of Public Health            |




  
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:13218 alt.atheism:21900
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:45:50 EST
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Paganism & Atheism
 <92323.092330J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> <1992Nov21.052548.28549@midway.uchicago.edu>

[Sorry about the double post in alt.atheism; I meant to cross-post this
followup the first time.]

In article <1992Nov21.052548.28549@midway.uchicago.edu>, hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu
(sven  hauptfeld) says:
>
>In article <92323.092330J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
>writes:
>>
>>I consider myself an atheistic pagan, so I beg to differ here.
>>As far as I am concerned, gods and goddesses are metaphorical
>>personifications of aspects of nature.  What follows is a repost
>>detailing my position.
>>----------------------------------------------
>>Anyone else out there in paganland consider themselves a "metaphorical
>>pagan?"  I don't believe in supernatural deities, but I'm in love with
>>nature and mythology.  I've been "worshipping" nature gods through
>>rituals for some 20 years now--not because I believe in the magickal
>>efficacy of the rituals, but rather for the feeling of connectedness
>>to nature and to human prehistory.
>>----------------
>>John A. Johnson  (j5j@psuvm.psu.edu)
>
>You do not worship. You "worship".
>
>Therefore, you are not a pagan. You are a "pagan".

Precisely!!!   Because I am a metaphorical pagan, I am a "pagan."
But by the duck principle, it would be quite difficult to distinguish
me from someone who is a pagan-without-quotation-marks.  Furthermore,
Margot Adler describes my brand of paganism as perfectly valid form of
the same.

>
>I think the Bible is a very interesting and inspiring book. That doesn't make
>me Xian. I think Greek myths are very good ethical reading. Doesn't make me
>worship Greek gods. I look forward to reading Qur'an when I find time. Won't
>convert me to Islam. I am fascinated by Lao-Tzu's writings. I'm not a Taoist.
>I think we can learn a lot from Zen Buddhism. But why accept it religiously?
>
>There is a difference between (respecting, studying, enjoying) and
>worshipping.

Sven, are you always this grouchy, or are you having a bad day?

My word processor's thesaurus brings up the following nine terms for worship:
honor, respect, revere, venerate, adore, adulate, deify, glorify, and idolize.
The first five describe quite well the way I worship nature.

-----------------------------------
John A. Johnson (J5J@psuvm.psu.edu)
Atheistic, metaphorical, Taoist-pagan.
Penn State is not responsible for my behavior.
"A ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of
 another sort.  Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing
 metaphysics is a part of life."  - from _Lila_ by R. Pirsig
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Who are we kidding?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:49:57 GMT

I ran up against the truth today that we have an estimated 30 years or
less to change our ways before the damage we do becomes irreparable.
How many society-wide religious, political, and economic trends do YOU
know of that have changed in thirty years?  Fucking none.  And just
please don't e-mail my ass and tell me "What about the American
Revolution" and similar shit like that.  If that's the most grand
example you can think of of a major shift in living attitudes, you're
pretty damned pathetic.  I also laugh my ass off when people e-mail nme
and seriously say thingts like, "Well, primitive man [sic] hunted all
the mammoths to extinction, and we're just like him."  Yeah, primitive
"man" fucked the planet so badly that it only had one generation
before it was going to kick us all off the surface.  Oh, I believe you.
If this is the denial game we're all going to play with each other,
let's just give it up now, okay? 

It's finished, people.  We're just not going to change in thirty years,
face up to it.  We're not the first evolutionary cul-de-sac that's ever
come down the pike.  The dice rolled, and we came out, and it just
didn't work out.  If we had 150 years or 200, maybe.  But we are NOT
GOING TO CHANGE IN TIME.  Think about it.  Do you honestly think that
today's 10-year olds are going to suddenly have this mass jump in
consciousness despite being reared by today's 40-year olds and rise up
as one and go back to living in thatched-roof houses or at least give up
their Nintendos long enough to find out what's happening?

We just don't want to admit it because we can't imagine the Earth --
Goddess, whatever -- being around without us, its central and most
important children.  Get real.  We won't be the first evolutionary dead
end, and we won't be the last.  It's time to exit stage left and let
something else have a shot at it.  Right now, all I want to do is find
some quiet little island or something to live on so I can avoid as much
of the splat as I can when the shit finally hits the fan. 

Janis
 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Mikey
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:03:30 GMT

mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>children (ignored by their parents the whole time!) running around the
>ritual site, getting underfoot, and interfering with the activites as well
>as destroying the ritual mindset. I am not joking. People on usenet are
>going to get the impression from your post that he is a wonderful child
>when, in fact, he is the worst behaved child I have ever seen and I have
>little siblings and I used to babysit when I was a teenager. The so called
>Elder is also one of the worst parents I have ever seen.

Please don't blame the child for the parents irresponsibility.
The child IS a wonderful child. Why doesn't this `community' talk
to the mother and demand that she address the obvious problem?
In our community, we adults with small children talked about this
potential problem and decided to coop childcare in a different space
than the ritual so as to avoid these kind of interruptions. We
do set aside certain times in some rituals when we invite the children
in and allow them to participate to some degree but with no expectations
of anything but cursory attention at those times. I hope that the
adults who feel like you do about Mikey will do something constructive
about it rather than just grumbling about Mikey.

Blessings

al ( also )

>Wassail,
>Al
-- 
Al Aldrich	inet:aaldrich@encore.com
"..if you understood everything I said, you'd be me." miles davis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MY opinions are not to be construed as those of my employer.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 04:42:57 GMT


Re: Anita Bryant...

She goes in the "Women manifesting
patriarchal conciousness" file.

As for your comment that you've not
found any values which are gender
specific, I'll conditionally agree
with you: there are a minority of 
men who have what I would term a 
matriarchal conciousness (I like to
hope that I'm one of them), just 
as there are a minority of women who
have a patriarchal conciousness.  But
patriarchy socializes the bulk of males
in the society into destructive
attitudes and behaviors.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest