HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Climbing Death on Mt. Temple
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:28:43 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

bill_wright@mentorg.com writes:
>I just heard on the radio (Paul Harvey) that some guy from Colorado
>fell 4000 feet while trying to climb Mt. Temple near Lake Louise in
>the Canadian Rockies.  I don't have any more information, but would
>be interested in what route he was on and the circumstances.  I think
>the East Ridge of this mountain is a "50 Classic Climb."


A friend of mine returned from Mt. Temple two weeks ago via a
helicopter flight similar to the one I had in Alaska.  (it seems
that helicopter flights are popular this summer).  (un)Fortunately for
him he had a shattled ankle after a cornice collapsed on him a
hundred feet from the summit ridge.  He subquiently had to climb up
and over the summit and then descent the "standard route" back to the
base.  The next moring he was helicoptered off the mountain.  He sits
at home with three screws in his angle and some very hasty soft tissue
damaged.  The break was due to catching crampon during his fall.


And I though it was just people from the midwest who still listen to
Paul Harvey ??? 


Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah



"I always wanted to climb those peaks ...
	 just didn't think I would do them all in one day."

	My climbing partner after hiking/climbing in the Wasatch.
From: anvick@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Janet Anvick)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:03:10 GMT
Subject: Climbing Matterhorn
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

My husband, Scott, is looking into what it would require to climb the 
Matterhorn.  Since we were in Switzerland this past month, he asked at
the climbing school in Zermatt the cost of a guide.  At that time he
was told ~$600 and a guide would be needed for each person in the party.
I have not read rec.climbing before now.  I was wondering if anyone has
climbed the Matterhorn and what it entailed.  My husband has just started
to get into climbing and plans to do a lot of climbing/mountaineering 
over the next 2 years in preparation.

Thanks for your time, Janet Anvick, Cupertino, CA.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: engberg@sw.stratus.com (Eric Engberg)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Shelf Road Beta wanted
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:41:16 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

Keywords: Shelf


I'm planning a short trip to Shelf Road around Sept. 21 (after the Access Fund
and Horsetooth Hang weekend) and am looking for the usual types of information.
route recommendations in the 10 and 11 range (although I'd love to hear about
some "give-away" 12a's), gear requirements, camping scene, etc.

Thanks,
Eric

PS  How much chalk do I need, will a block an hour suffice?
From: rob@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Offwidths
Date: 7 Sep 92 10:36:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

mjharris@vax.oxford.ac.uk wrote:
: In article <715599508.16077@minster.york.ac.uk>, rob@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
: > 
: > Marty Garrison (martyg@Ingres.COM) wrote:
: > : In article <1992Sep3.084013.58592@cc.usu.edu> sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
: > : >Greg Hill writes:
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >There is a climb somewhere in the peak district, UK, probably at curbar if I
: > : >remember and possibly called Goliath or similar (It's been a long time!).
: > : >A 30' gritstone ugly of which the guide says "the energy expended on this climb
: > : >is usually enough to light Sheffield for a week. The difficulties depend on
: > : >how well you can swim"
: > : >
: > : >Now that's offwidth technique!
: > : >
: > : I believe thats the left eliminator, I did it a number of years ago
: > : and found it to be somewhere around 10c.
: > : 
: > : Marty
: > 
: > 
: > I am not sure but I think Bob the Ex-Pat is correct, I dont have my full
: > selecetion of guides here in the office but Goliath gets E1 and is 
: > somewhat unusual. I'll look it up and post description
: > 
: > Rob.
: 
: The route is actually called Right Eliminate, and is usually given E3, with
: (perhaps not surprisingly) no technical grade. First ascent: Joe Brown
: back in the '60s or maybe even '50s (can't remember exactly).
: Pretty remarkable stuff. 


According to the new guides to Stanage and Frogatt, the climb Bob is
talking about is indeed Goliath and goes at a mean E5 6b (do your own
translation I can't) not bad for 30 ft, it is a Burbage and is flanked
by some other horror shows.  Left Eliminate also exists (again I think
at Burbage I checked on Fri night) as an offwidth but is easier than
Goliath.  The new description does enough to put most people off, even

Rob.

if they could climb that hard.
From: rclarke@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Date: 12 Sep 92 12:24:20 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Sep12.011530.28206@credence.com>, jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.161113.7444@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>Can some one please tell me what damage chalk does?  Dosen't it just wash off
>>with the rain?
> 
> Two answers to your second question... 
> 
> 1. How much does it rain at Smith Rocks? Joshua Tree? Any number of other
> such places?  Chalk doesn't melt away with the first sprinkle.
I don't know.  I've never been farther west than North Coralina(sp?) and only
climbed in New Hampshire, USA and Nova Scotica Can, where we consider our
selves luky it it dosn't rain.  I was just wondering if I should really bother
listening to this debate.
> 
> 2. Overhangs.
We haven't done many overhangs yet but in NS the rain always goes at about 45
degrease(sp?) so that's not much of a problem either.
> 
> 						Jeff Winslow
--
Ethan Clarke
---
Rclarke@AC.DAL.CA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Keywords: save your butt
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:21:11 GMT

billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright) rants:

>In that situation a fall is a possibility.  Falling is ALWAYS a possibility!
>Chalk doesn't change that!  It just moves the grade where a fall is imminent.

Chalk makes routes a little more consistent, with their guidebook grade and
with their level of seriousness as assessed from the ground.  If I threw in
the relatively random element of possibly greasy hands, I would be stuck doing
routes which were normally too easy for serious fun (I'm talking cragging here,
not mountain routes) but which occasionally became exciting when my hands
began to sweat.  I suppose I could just use Vaseline on my hands for a
sustained adrenaline rush, but. . .

>Why don't you just face the facts
>that you climb with chalk so you can tick a higher number?

OK, but those higher number climbs can be a lot of fun.  That's why I wear
shoes and place pro.  I get some serious jollies when I make those "I can't
believe I'm making these moves" moves.

>Chalk is evil and ugly (Paraphrased)

So are many of my climbing partners.  I figure the aesthetic questions are
moot by the time we show up anyway.  But seriously, if I'm on a route that
was unearthed from a thick mass of lichen and moss in the first place, I
rarely feel my wilderness ethics surging to the forefront.  Perhaps if I
had the luxury of Yosemite over Washington, my attitude would be different.
Also, my girlfriend scoffs at chalk, but she's so dainty that her hands never
sweat.

I agree that it's great to get on a route with no little or no evidence of
human activity, and am extra careful about dipping in such circumstances.  But
if you want to play on my sense of enviro-guilt, remind me of all the gas
I use driving to the mountains.

Eric Hirst
eric@milton.u.washington.edu

P.S.  It is possible to chalk up without leaving any visible trace on the
rock.  Just put the chalk inside a sock in your chalk bag (the Bison Ball
concept).  This way you use very little chalk per dip but your hands come
out dry every time.  Wash the sock every few years (or whenever you do your
normal laundry) as it will get slimy eventually.
From: 71064.456@CompuServe.COM (Steven Reiser)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: NATIONAL CLIMBING POLICY!
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:33:54 GMT

Last spring, after Joshua Tree National Monument, California and City of 
Rocks, Idaho had submitted Interim Climbing Management Plans to regional 
offices of the National Park Service (NPS), the National office in Washington,
D.C. took an interest in these developments and it was resolved to develop a 
national plan to set some general guidelines within which all NPS administered
lands could develop local plans unique their areas. Thes decisions were made 
at a May 19th NPS meeting in Denver, Colorado representing areas primarily in 
the western states. 

This week meetings are being held by the NPS in Boulder, Colorado.  The Access
Fund was invited to participate in these meetings to represent input of 
climbers to the process of developing this policy.  Maura Longden, the 
climbing ranger at City of Rocks, Idaho was appointed by the D.C. office to 
work jointly with another ranger from Yosemite (don't have name) in 
coordinating meetings and drafting the climbing policy.  The May meeting 
produced such a wide range of responses ranging from moderate to very 
restrictive according to Ms. Longden. The Boulder meeting is an attempt to 
unify the NPS and include Access Fund advisement to resolve issue ahead of 
public review that will be controversial issues within the climbing community.

Because the conflicts within the NPS are enough of a challenge, Maura told me 
last Sunday that no part of the draft policy will be disclosed to the public 
until it is officially released within the Federal Register for public review.
She did indicate if the meetings go well a public review draft will be issued 
this fall.

The most important contribution climbers can make to the future of the sport 
is to respond to the public review with well thought out arguments for or 
against positions taken in the draft policy, because the final policy will 
impact our sport possibly beyond our lifetimes.  It is expected some of the 
policy will address the environmental impact of climbing within NPS 
administered lands.  How that is interpretted will certainly determine whether
climbers are adverse to or supportive of the policy.

The climbing magazines will most likely give information concerning the draft 
policy in the fall issues under the Access Fund articles written by Sam 
Davidson.

Again, I would encourage all of you to respond to the draft policy when it is 
issued for public review, since we will have to live with the results.

Steven Reiser, President
Friends of City of Rocks, Inc.
P.O. Box 2053
Idaho Falls, ID 83403

PS - I can post to rec.climbing via a gateway, but do not currently have 
access to reading the "News". If you wish to respond to me personally on this 
posting, I can receive mail at this address: 71064.456@compuserve.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: Re: chalk
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 17:23:40 GMT
Reply-To: billw@sjc.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <1992Sep8.030516.27626@colorado.edu>, ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:
|> >In article <Sep07.163541.72648@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
|> 
|> >But I stand by my claim.  Chalk is basic.  Sweat is acidic.  In
|> >croweded climbing areas, I bet chalk does more good than harm...
|> 
|> ... from a climber's point of view, that is. There is no way it increases the
|> visual appearance of the rock it is used on, and I can sympathize with non-climbers
|> who feel climbers are degrading the rock. I'm still going to use chalk, but feel it 
|> should be kept to a minimum in places where it will be visible and not washed away 
|> at regular intervals (such as beneath overhangs close to the ground).

You agree that chalk is ugly but you are still going to use it because it gets
you up that 5.11 or 5.12 or whatever.  Since you are interested in reducing
chalk usage than I bet you don't use it on a 5.7 (or 5.2 or whatever).  You
use it to climb at an artifically higher level and, while worried about the
ugliness it creates, don't care about that more than your ego.  Or maybe it
isn't your ego, but that you can't have fun climbing unless your fingers
are dry?  It is certainly a common attitude, but it seems very curious to me.

Greg, I do NOT mean this as a personal attack in anyway.  I am just exploring
the reasons for chalk usage when you agree it is ugly.
-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: Leading on 9mm?
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:31:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.201517.29731@mcnc.org> ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek) writes:

[Some stuff about heavy 9mm ropes full of errors]

>It certainly is!  Unfortunately, it seems to take some of the attraction
>out of using double 9s.  I've never weighed one in the store, but
>you just won't believe that this rope and an 8.8 mm are 'the same'.
>
>The MT catalog reported it at 5.8 lbs. To compare, IME reports the
>Mammut AroTwin at just under 5 lbs, almost 20%  lighter.  The lightest
>Black Diamond *single* rope in the MT catalog was 6.25 lbs, just
>~12% heavier than the Revolution, and rated 5 falls.
>
>Just consider the BW Revolution as a 9.6 or so rope, not a 9.
>It may be right for you.

The heavy Bluewater 9mm is the 'Rock Serpent', not the Revolution, and
the MT catalog calls it 6.8 lbs, not 5.8.  Yes, weight is one of those
extremely difficult things to measure scientifically - Bluewater says
53 g/m, => 5.8 lbs for 50m; MT says 6.8 lbs for nominal 50m rope;
and last year's rope review in Climbing says 6.4 lbs for 50 m actual.
This review gave the measured diameter of a Rock Serpent as 10.4 mm!

In any event, even such straightforward numbers as weight are apparently
not trustworthy, and the Bluewater 'Rock Serpent' is about as thick and
as heavy as some single ropes nominally 9.8-10.2 mm, but is advertised
and tested as a 9mm rope.
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: chalk
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:30:58 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

I asked a ranger at J-Tree a while ago about tourist impressions of
climber impact.  Number one on the list was chalk.  Tourists don't
seem to notice the wholesale destruction of the top layer of (fragile)
desert soil from needless trails and wanderings; and they certainly
don't pay any atention to bolts (with the exception of a brief period
when climbers were using powerdrill on rocks in the camprgound at
dawn).  Chalk is visible to all who look at the rocks and watch the
climbers.

For the record, I am a moderate on the chalk issue.  I use very little
chalk (about one block per year, and I climb frequently), and I very
much enjoy discovering the secrets of a climb for myself.  I do use
more chalk when bouldering/soloing and on very hard (for me) climbs,
but the quantities are still small compared to the usage by most
people.

In particular, I urge YOU to economize when possible.  There is enough
chalk on many climbs to eliminate the need to use your own -
especially the 5.12s (too many people think extreme tactics such as
tortuously tight shoes and scrupulous chalking and claeaning are
necessary for these).  Plus, it is sometimes rewarding to stump your
second when you have not left a trail to follow!

Please understand that my previous note on this subject mentioned the
use of chalk for marking holds, not in defense of such tactics but
instead since this use of chalk had been completely overlooked in the
current discussion.  There are climbers who use such tactics who climb
better than you, and would almost certainly continue to outclimb you
even if you took up all their tactics and devoted you life to training
and climbing.  That is, these tactics do not make better climbers, but
do allow some climbers to achieve their personal best in the climbing
style they have selected.

And one more time:  Keep the chalk off your shoes, and away from my
footholds.  Wet chalk is about as sticky as mud - sticky rubber has a
better chance of adhering to wet rock without goo in between.  I hope
there is no argument in favor of chalking dry footholds.

Ken
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: paale@stud.cs.uit.no (Paal Ellingsen)
Subject: Euro-climbers
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:43:32 GMT

}I'm sure it was awfully tough to convince the climbers to put up with
}this!  But knowing how environmental climbers are (especially in Europe),
}I am sure they succumbed to this awful restriction. :-)
}-- 
}             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

}                  "When in doubt, run it out!"

It would be entertaining to hear exactly what Bill Wright means by referring to
european climbers as being environmental.


                                         Paal Ellingsen/paale@stud.cs.uit.no
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Access Fund Needs Help
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:57:14 GMT

ACCESS FUND NEEDS VOLONTEER SURVEY TAKERS.

The Access Fund in conducting a survey over several weekends in
September and October in Yosemitee National Park.  The purpose is to
provide a data base of climber usage for discussions with the NPS.
Volonteers will count climbers on specific areas, number of cars
parked at turnouts used by climbers, distribute questionaires, etc.

This information is needed to preserve access in YNP.

Anyone interested in helping call:

Sean Ward : 1-800-666-5463 (work)
            1-510-237-6418 (home)

[If possible, call the work number as Sean is more readily contacted
there.]
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: chalk
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:53:48 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Sep8.030516.27626@colorado.edu> ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:
>
>... from a climber's point of view, that is. There is no way it increases the
>visual appearance of the rock it is used on, and I can sympathize with non-climbers

No one has mentioned that there are a number of climbers who actually
*like* the appearance of chalk on the rock.  Chalk is used to mark
holds on desperate climbs, and generally makes routefinding easier.
Whether or not you consider this aid or damage to the rock, some
climbers enjoy using chalk in this way.  

Note to chalk abusers:  Keep your dirty chalk off of my footholds!  It
is bad enough that you take away the routefinding, but chalk only
makes footholds more slippery.  If you insist on marking your climbs,
use arrows near (but not on) the footholds.

Ken
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Grease
Date: 7 Sep 92 22:16:30 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep07.212414.17523@news.mentorg.com> billw@sjc.mentorg.com writes:
>
>In article <Sep07.163541.72648@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>|> Yes, I don't see chalk as a problem, and it may be an asset.  Recall
>|> that its use grew from precedents in gymnastics, where it is used to
>|> protect the equipment among other things.  I think John Gill (gymnast
>|> and boulderer extrordiaire) was the first climber to use chalk.
>
>Sure chalk is an asset...an asset in increasing the number that you can
>claim you pink point.  Don't kid yourself that this is an asset for the
>rock.  Don't let your ego take your mind on a delusion like that so you
>can feel good about your chalk usage.  Come on...

Well Bill, I don't use chalk much myself these days, since it seems
like more trouble than its worth.  And involving my ego in my climbing
endeavors doesn't make much sense since I no longer climb at the level
I used to and don't care.  When I climb it is for the sheer joy of
doing it.  At age thirty-nine and with a physique more like a football
lineman than a rock-gymnast, I have no delusions about being a star.

But I stand by my claim.  Chalk is basic.  Sweat is acidic.  In
croweded climbing areas, I bet chalk does more good than harm.
I am not a chemist and would welcome a study on this.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rclarke@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Reasons for using chalk
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:11:13 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Can some one please tell me what damage chalk does?  Dosen't it just wash off
with the rain?
--
Ethan Clarke
---
RClarke@AC.DAL.CA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: Wolfgang Guellich is dead
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:17:52 GMT


I also heard this from a fellow at Nomad Ventures in Idyllwild this
past weekend.

They had heard the news from someone at the Yosemite Mountain School,
something about an accident involving very high speeds.

--
            tim schneider

    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
           (602) 436-3078
From: charles@bravo.corp.sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: San Jose climbing stores
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:26:11 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Can someone tell me where I might find the least expensive
equipment in the San Francisco south bay/mid pen. area?

thank you 

charles
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: NOTICE: 'Bigfoot/Sasquatch' Sightings Request
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:10:39 GMT

In article <190v9aINNhao@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>,
ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes:
>
>   Our research group is currently investigating reports and sightings of the
>animal known as "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". If you or somebody you know has had
>such a sighting, or come across what may be evidence supporting the existance
>of such an animal, please get in contact with us in one of the following
>formats:
Isn't he the guy wearing size 14 EEE EB's?

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: MgCO3
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:30:09 GMT

Ron Olsen writes:
>3.  I don't routinely use chalk on wet footholds; only as a last
>    resort when there is no alternative and I'm facing a dangerous fall.
>    I would much prefer to find an alternative sequence or grab pro to get
>    by a wet spot than chalk a foothold.  Wet chalk may be worse than
>    wet rock, but dry chalk is better.   Backing off, grabbing pro,
>    or bypassing the wet spot are not always possible.

Or, why not just be like P. Croft, as he described in his slide show, and
use your knees! Or, you could emulate Duncan Ferguson and take your shoes
off, using the better friction possibilities of wet socks! (welllll, nooooo,
i haven't actually TRIED these techniques.....)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing