HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Good Teachers in Public Schools (Was Re: Clinton ... (was Re: Theft))
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 18:29:11 GMT

In article <21654@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> My question, whenever someone says that you can attract better teachers
> if you paid them more money, is this -
> 
> 	If you can attract better teachers with more money, why do
> 	private school teachers, who make much less than their public
> 	school counterparts, do a better job of teaching?
 
Obviously pay is not the only variable.  People take jobs based on lots
of variables, and while pay is important, it's not always the most
important.   I know plenty of people who have taken jobs at the same or
even lower salary levels because they thought it offered them greater
oppurtunities down the line or they simply couldn't stand their current
boss.
 
> I have another question, too -
> 
> 	If we do decide to increase teacher pay, what is going to
> 	happen to all of the people who are working as teachers right
> 	now?  If what you say is true, we will have to fire all of
> 	them since they aren't qualified to be teachers.
 
Not at all.  Some teachers will obviously go, others will stay.   Some
might need remedial help.  Again, people take jobs for lots of reasons.  I
know plenty of teachers who have taken jobs because they were close to
home, even though they could have gotten more money if they were willing
to commute.
 
> The facts are simple.  The amount of money you pay a teacher is NOT
> related to the quality of the teacher.  Teacher pay is already very
 
I'm surprised that you, of all people, would make such a statement that is
so ignorant of marketplace forces. 
 
> competitive with other 4 year degree programs, and teachers are only
> required to get post-grad degrees to demonstrate that they are staying
> current with evolving educational theory.  Coupled with the incredible
> job security that a teacher has compared to a non civil service worker,
> and there is quite an argument to be made that teachers are paid on par
> with other college graduates.
 
If teaching is such a lucrative and attractive job then why does it
consistently attract the students with the lowest SAT scores?  I think
teacher pay varies widely across the country.  I also think that some of
the statistics you've reported on time spent on homework and paperwork is
not the norm.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: BullShit
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:20:27 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Oct05.180233.28134@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.042322.25896@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>|> Seems to me that someone who
>|> states plainly that they will lie whenever it is convenient shouldn't
>|> be trusted even when they give sources.  After all, they could lie,
>|> selectively interpret, or selectively edit what they see.
>
>The nice thing about sources is you can look them up, and quite easily
>determine whether he is lying, selectively interpreting, selectively
>editing or whatever.

What Fred is conveniently ignoring is that I qualified my statement with
the remark that what I had "lied" to others about was none of their
business.  If, for example, a stranger were to ask if I were gay, I would
feel more than justified by answering "yes" or "no" depending on what I
thought would cause the least amount of friction.  It is, after all, none
of their business what my sexual orientation is.  The only person that
my sexual orientation matters to is my wife, and so far she doesn't seem
to care what it is ;-)  Likewise, my salary is only relevant to my
employer, my wife and the IRS.  It is most certainly not a matter for
James Berry and his cohorts to gossip about.
-- 
John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics,alt.politics.clinton
From: hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen)
Subject: Re: Good Teachers in Public Schools (Was Re: Clinton ... (was Re: Theft))
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1992 18:58:42 GMT

In article <21674@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> Teaching is a commodity skill.  =I= could be a teacher, =you= could be a
> teacher.  For this reason, pay will always be low.  Even if the most
> highly qualified person in the world were to come along, pay would remain
> low.
 
I don't agree.  It may be more commodity-like than some professions, and
we may have chosen to price it that way, but it's not.
 
> Whenever a profession becomes a "commodity" profession, pay rates fall.
> The pay rate will fall until is above the lowest paid professional that
> has the skills required.  Since accountants, who are some of the lowest
> paid 4 year degree workers, are qualified to teach math well into the
> high school level, math teachers will remain low paid - even though
> someone with a PhD in Applied Mathematics is more "qualified."
 
I think your facts are a bit off.  Accountants out of college get paid
more than most non-technical degrees (i.e., everything except engineering
and computer science).  I was just looking at some numbers recently, and
at about 28K/year out of college, that puts them ahead of most business
school graduates in finance, marketing, management, etc.  And pretty much
on parity with MIS.  That puts them well ahead of liberal arts and most
natural sciences.  Best of all, accountants can actually find jobs.  (No,
I'm not an accountant).
 
I think someone with a PhD in Applied Mathematics probably would be so
bored they would do a horrible job teaching high school mathematics.
 
I think there are plenty of engineers, however, who have a very good grasp
of science and mathematics who would do a much better job than your
average science/math teacher nowadays.
-- 
Doug Andersen
hari@Sugar.NeoSoft.com
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: BullShit
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:43:01 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Oct6.101649.16806@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>In article <21671@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>> Now, since you are completely unable to read, I'll point out that I have on
>> no occassion ever posted my salary.  My comment was directed specifically at
>> James Berry who claimed to have some inside information.  I was quite simply
>> pointing out that his inside information is probably wrong, and intentionally
>> so.  After all, it was none of his business.  Given the nature of gossips,
>> would anyone be stupid enough to give out information they didn't want spread
>> about the net?
>
>	True, I wouldn't.  But I wouldn't lie about it, just not bring it up
>or respond to it.

The problem with not bringing it up (I didn't) or not responding to
statements that are made is if someone says "You don't know what it's
like to be poor because you've always been rich" - what are you going
to do?  If you don't respond you "admit" by your silence that they
are right.  And if you say "none of your business", the same thing,
except it's usually "oh, we MUST be right!"

Quite simply put, it wasn't James' business.  He tried to make it into
his business and I refused to play along.  Likewise, whoever fed him
the information was also playing that game.
-- 
John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
From: popec@unkaphaed.UUCP (William C. Barwell)
Newsgroups: tx.politics,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Good Teachers in Public Schools (Was Re: Clinton ... (was Re: Th
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 12:16:10 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Unka Phaed's UUCP Thingy


> In article <fyzd0g3@Unify.Com> ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes
> >What does this have to do with Haugh's contention that all the good teachers
> >flee to private schools and only incompetent teachers remain in the public
> >school system?  Obviously one of the best teachers in the country is not onl
> >in the public school system but intends to be whereever in the public school
> >system he is needed most.
> 
> You have that completely wrong.  It isn't my contention that teachers DO
> flee the public school system, but rather that they SHOULD.  Leave the
> dying carcass to the those that can't get jobs elsewheres.
> 
> >It just dawned on me (I'm not stupid, just slow) that Barbara Bush should
> >abandon teacups for a nice green salad.  Then the Bush/Quayle ticket could
> >advertise itself as the Dinner Party:  Chicken, Potatoe, Salad, and Cookies.
> >But without the leafy green it's unbalanced, especially while broccoli re-
> >mains a banned substance.
> 
> proud of?  The way Bill lies, it should be the "Wayne's World" campaign -
> 
> 	I didn't inhale.  NOT!
> 	I didn't sleep with Jennifer.  NOT!
> 	I didn't dodge the draft.  NOT!
> -- 
> John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!j
> Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.o

It sure is a wonder how John can be so ticked at Clinton's picyune lies 
and be so placid in the face of the flurry of lies told by Lying George 
Bush.
    Iranscam
    Iraqscam
    Chinascam
    Taxes
    
The list just goes on and on.  Nightline's exsposure of Bush's lies about 
his activities during Iranscam, and Secord's recent book show Bush was 
not out of the loop as he claims.  He is a liar.
A huge chunk of my income is subtracted out of every paycheck I recieve.
This is supposed to be set aside for when I retire.  Yet Bush with 
astroke of a pen turned this into a tax.  $300 billions have to date been 
stolen by Bush out of the Socuial Security Trust Funds,  Bush is a thief 
too.  Does this bother anyone here other than me?   Some months back here 
I dissembled Bushes tax claims thoroughly.  No new taxes!?  He has 
slipped us lots of taxes!  He is and was a liar!  I guess John hit 'n' 
and so did notfind out just what a liar Bush is.  How can Haugh ignore 
such big lies on the part of Bush, and put Clinton's silly lil lies under 
such a large looking glass?  Wot a silly little man.  

Haugh, you are a silly neocon whiner.  you are boring too.  I wish my 
reader had a kill file.

--
popec@unkaphaed.UUCP (William C. Barwell)
Unka Phaed's UUCP Thingy, (713) 943-2728 in Houston, Texas
1200/2400/9600/14400 v.32bis/v.42bis
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Subject: Beginning of a Great Adventure
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: tx
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 17:25:04 GMT

(I'm off to Reno for a week, wanted to get this out there).


By Lou Reed, From "New York"
Title: "Beginning of a great adventure"
It might be great to have a kid that I could kick around
a little me to fill up with my thoughts
A little me or he or she to fill up with my dreams
a way of saying life is not a loss
I'd keep the tyke away from school
and tutor him myself, keep him from the poison of the crowd
But then again pristine isolation might not be the best idea
It's not good trying to immortalize yourself
Why stop at one, I might have ten, a regular TV brood
I'd breed a little liberal army in the woods
just like these redneck lunatics I see at the local bar
with their tribe of mutant inbred piglets with cloven hooves
I'd teach them how to plant a bomb, start a fire, play guitar
and if they catch a hunter, shoot him in the nuts
I'd try to be as progressive as I could possibly be
as long as I didn't have to try too much
Susie, Jesus, Bogart, Sam, Leslie, Jill and Jeff
Rita, Winny, Andy, Fran and Jet
Boris, Bono, Lucy, Ethel, Bunny, Reg and Tom
That's a lot of names to try not to forget
Carrie, Marlon, Mo and Steve, LaRue and Jerry Lee
Eggplant, Rufus, Dummy, Star, and The Glob
I'd need a damn computer to keep track of all these names
I hope this baby thing don't go too far
Hey, I hope it's true what my wife said to me
She says, "baby, it's the beginning of a great adventure"
I might be fun to have kid that I could kick around 
create in my own image like a God
I'd raise my own pallbearers to carry me to my grave
and keep me company when I'm a wizened toothless clod
Some gibbering old fool sitting all alone drooling on his shirt
some senile old fart playing in the dirt
It might be fun to have a kid that I could pass (something) on to
something other than rage, pain, anger and hurt
I hope it's true what my wife said to me
She says, "Lou, it's the beginning of a great adventure".


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"They say 'David, what shall I do? They wait for me in the hallway'.
I say 'Don't ask me- I don't know any hallways."- David Bowie, "Scary Monsters"
Xref: sparky tx.politics:5830 alt.politics.clinton:8397
Newsgroups: tx.politics,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: <None>
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Date: 4 Oct 92 12:06:24 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <21659@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> In article <fyzd0g3@Unify.Com> ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
>>What does this have to do with Haugh's contention that all the good teachers
>>flee to private schools and only incompetent teachers remain in the public
>>school system?
> 
> You have that completely wrong.  It isn't my contention that teachers DO
> flee the public school system, but rather that they SHOULD.  Leave the
> dying carcass to the those that can't get jobs elsewheres.
> 
	That sounds like a rather Elitist attitude.  I went through public
schools, a state university, and never once to a private school.  I think
I turned out very well, and there are others around me that prove that the
system can work.

	If you really care, get involved, don't just bitch about it.  Find
out what you need to do for your part of your childs education.  PTA and
other things.  If you think "I don't have time", take a quick reality check
about who you just said you don't have time for...

	The last issue of the Dallas Observer has an interesting article
about how some Dallas school districts are telling the teachers to not fail
students.  Teachers can't convince students to work (where is the motivation,
they'll pass anyway!), the paperwork to fail is tremendous, the parents force
the school board to retract the failing grade and advance the student anyway,
and the children are supposed to benefit from this?

	The system can work, but we need to get the politicians out of the
educational process.

> Oh, and the Clinton ("I didn't inhale, NOT!") campaign is something to be
> proud of?  The way Bill lies, it should be the "Wayne's World" campaign -
> 
> 	I didn't inhale.  NOT!
> 	I didn't sleep with Jennifer.  NOT!
> 	I didn't dodge the draft.  NOT!

	Very true, not that Bush's record is something to be proud of, either.
Ross Perot had a good quote, something like "Strip the bureaucracy of the
money-driven and ego maniacs", which would obviously eliminate himself!

	Even though the presidential race is critical, Congress is what needs
cleaning, regardless of who gets wins the presidential race.  I think it has
far more power than was intended.
> -- 
> John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
> Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Prove it!
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:29:07 GMT

In <1992Sep28.212621.26756@NeoSoft.com> rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:

>In article <1992Sep25.134526.14899@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>In <1992Sep24.193955.21806@NeoSoft.com> rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1992Sep22.142619.19948@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>>
>>>>(we expire fools like you quickly
>>>>around here).
>>>>
>>>>You've lied by
>>>>ommission about what's in Gray's Anatomy and then 'declared victory'.
>>>>
>>>>That's just one of your problems, John.  You're BORING.  But that's
>>>>hardly first on what is a very long list.
>>
>>>	Ah, a fine discussion....	
>>
>>Perhaps, but given what I was responding to, it was pretty
>>appropriate.

>	Given what your were responding to hasn't a thing to do with
>how you are, how your personal ethics allow you to be. You allow 
>yourself to act childish. That's a convenience I reserve for having
>fun at play, not for dealing with adults, adult topics in a political
>newsgroup. 

And you don't view saying things like this to me to be in the same
vein as what you are complaining about me doing to John?  Why do
phrases like "physician, heal thyself" and "let he who is without sin
cast the first stone" come to mind?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kennedy)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Prove it!
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 22:42:17 CDT
Organization: Ham Radio Operator, Houston Tex.

jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

> In article <mBN4RB1w164w@n5abi.hou.tx.us> gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kenned
> > It's not an "either/or" choice. My mother had a saying when I was 
> >a kid, and the concept applys here (though not the thought). She 
> >said "If you act like a kid, you'll be treated like a kid". No, 
> >I'am not saying John acts like a kid, it's the concept I'am
> >talking about. Your concept seems to be, "If you act like a kid,
> >I'll act like a kid". Mirroring behavior you disagree with makes 
> >no sense to me.
> 
> Mirroring disagreeable behavior is sometimes effective in demonstrating
> how stupid the behavior is.

In your case, you seem to have a real "talent" for this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI - 
                      gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Exculpatory, a nifty little word that meant confuse
           the hell out of the jurors. -- Stephen Coonts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky tx.politics:5839 alt.politics.clinton:8433
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:48:45 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Oct4.120624.16798@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>	That sounds like a rather Elitist attitude.  I went through public
>schools, a state university, and never once to a private school.  I think
>I turned out very well, and there are others around me that prove that the
>system can work.

Same here.  Things were different 13 years ago when I left high school,
though at that time they were pretty pathetic.  In '79 teachers had real
power - if you were misbehaving severely, you were expelled.  If you
didn't do the work, you were flunked.  Now the appeals process and what
not is so involved that a teacher can't remove a distracting student from
their class and students who don't care to do the work just coast along.

Up until 1986 or so I had intended to send my (unborn) children to public
schools.  I wouldn't dream of handicapping them by doing that now.
-- 
John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Prove it!
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:59:30 GMT

In <ZF6VRB3w164w@n5abi.hou.tx.us> gak@n5abi.hou.tx.us (Gene A. Kennedy) writes:

>jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>> In article <1992Sep28.212621.26756@NeoSoft.com> rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullal
>> >	Furthermore, why not let John's style work against him, as it should?
>> 
>> You mean, my style of documenting what I post?  Or my style of not having
>> any tolerance for idiots?  I'm not sure which style you are referring to
>> and why that style will, or should, work against me ...

> I susect only you, John, and perhaps Fred, failed to understand 
>this comment.

Oh, I understand it fine.  I think we just disagree on whether or not
people should ignore John's behaviour (thereby tacitly approving of
it, or at least judging it 'acceptable') or whether he should be
treated BY people AS he treats people.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics,rice.politics
From: gamble@owlnet.rice.edu (Ben Gamble)
Subject: Re: Sex Education <fairly long, but good!>
Keywords: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu
Organization: Tennessee Ernie Port Authority
Distribution: tx
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:58:44 GMT

In article <mumble> exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor) writes:
|In article <Bv5F6B.JGr@rice.edu> gamble@owlnet.rice.edu (Ben Gamble) writes:
|
|>|The main problem with this disease is that the creator of it will
|>|claim that God inspired him to spread it around to punish sin.
|
|>Well, we've got our work cut out for us -- we, the forces of darkness,
|>feminism, homosexuality and secular humanism, simply have to find it
|>first!
|
|Or the cure ;-)

The vaccine!

-- 
Ben Gamble                              B0 f- t+ w- g+ k- s- m- e r-v p
gamble@owlnet.rice.edu 
       Oh ye who go about saying unto each other:  "Hello sailor":
       Dost thou know the magnitude of thy sin before the gods?