From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: [misc.activism.progressive] Clinton Office Requests Comments
Organization: The World
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:52:19 GMT


From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
>> I assume you missed the recent Savings and Loans scandal that's
>> costing the US around $500B?
>
>i believe you're getting close to the "libertarian==anarchist" fallacy
>that so many people use. a primary point of libertarianism is that
>with privilege comes responsibility.

And just who is supposed to enforce this responsibility? The govt???
Ooops, we got rid of them mostly...(and I don't mean anarchy, who? who
is supposed to enforce responsibility? please don't lecture me with
the libertarian vs anarchy polemics, just answer the question.)

>the difference between libertarians & most other people is that 
>libertarians tend to look for solutions that don't involve piling one 
>governmental patch on another. sure, go ahead and deregulate S&Ls.
>but make sure that their investors & owners are held responsible for
>their financial successes & failures. it works for any other business.

I'll ask again, who is supposed to hold them responsible? How?

>> Yes, so stupid as to hand their money over to banks for deposit who
>> then go belly-up after loaning all the deposit money to their
>> brothers-in-law. You must have an amazingly naive notion about
>> punishment and accountability. Even if these scum are caught do you
>> think they ever have the money? Do you think victims get paid back? 
>> Do you think punishing them pays people back?
>
>nope. who says people have a right to get payed back after they've 
>been defrauded? if someone steals my TV set the government has no 
>responsibility to replace it for me. if i want it replaced i either 
>buy a new one myself or use my insurance (you -did- buy insurance 
>didn't you?)

Oh ho! You think insurance companies will be much the same in the
society you describe where there is no or little govt playing an
active role preventing crime and recovering property (play twilight
zone music.)

That's what I love about libertarian lunacy, when it goes right off
the deep end. I'LL JUST BUY INSURANCE! (bah-wang-bah-wang-bah-wang,
earth to libs, earth to libs, come in libs...)


>besides, the government gets its 
>money from -me- in the first place. it'd be cheaper to replace my own
>loss & simply cut out the middle (mis) management.

Do you really believe this tripe you are spouting? Let me get this
straight, if your bank down the corner goes belly up, not every bank,
yours, then you and the other say 1500 depositors are better off
replacing your own money than spreading that rare event around?

A minute ago you were talking about the wonders of insurance. Now you
seem to believe insurance doesn't work. Which is it? What does FDIC
stand for? How is it operated? Is it different than any insurance,
other than the fact that the US Govt happens to own it? Have you ever
spent more than 10 seconds thinking about these issues before parading
them in public? Do you feel silly right now? You certainly should.

>the individual shares
>of a $5 billion bailout would have been enough for everybody to insure
>their own investments. whoops. the government won't allow competition
>in that area.

It was $500B.

It WAS insurance, what are you talking about?

Your cheap attempt at reasoning here is promoting the illogical
fallacy that this kind of thing is spread around evenly and you can
just average the problem magically. You cannot, thousands of people
lost their shirts (or potentially lost their shirts) on the order of
$50-100K each in Texas. But 100 million people were chipping in one
insurance against that possibility. Now use a little sense and re-work
your statements, what you are presenting isn't even laughable.

>hmm. an enforced monopoly.

So you just posit out of thin air that your idea is better because it
happens to be derived not from the slightest understanding of how the
system works but from your own personal ethical and moral system that
eschews annoying details like how the banking system works but instead
slaps simplistic junk-food ideas on any problem it confronts? Excuse
me, but I am not impressed.

>-now- do you understand why
>libertarians tend to dislike government?

No, I only understand that libertarians like to spout simple-minded
crap and together don't seem to represent more than 15 minutes
thinking about the problems they propose to solve.

>not only does it create problems
>in the first place, but it effectively outlaws the real solutions then
>fails to hold those who abuse the situation responsible.

The real solutions? I see, you axiomatically state a few things like
of course private depositor insurance would be better than govt
depositor insurance (why? i dunno, because it fits your personal
philosophy better) so therefore given that as a fact we
conclude...huh???

The leaps would make superman airsick.

>> You will never escape the will of the mob, about the best anyone has
>> ever figured out to do is herd them into voting booths. That's 
>> hardly an opinion.
>
>forgive some of us for -trying- to escape the will of the mob.

Good luck, go move to a mountain somewhere. Anyhow, you expect to
escape by saying "please leave me alone"? Yeah, that sounds like a
good plan...seems to be working great in places like
Bosnia-Hercegovinia...

>is libertarianism incompatible with democracy?

The person I was responding to said exactly that. Since the current
democratic system has led to the system that libertarians satanize
it's not an irrational conclusion to come to, as they say, if the shoe
fits wear it.

>i don't believe so. all
>the proposals i've seen assume we're working under a democratic 
>government, or a democratic republic. the idea behind libertarianism 
>is that the government is specifically limited in what it can do.

I see, democracy, but you get to make the rules...

>oooo. insults. no, we just get tired of being misrepresented as the
>proponents of prime evil.

Maybe instead of getting tired you should wonder why this is so.
Sometimes everyone else is crazy, and sometimes they're not and you
have just missed something really basic.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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