HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steele@vlsi.caltech.edu (Craig Steele)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Why renew ETO?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Date: 9 Jan 1993 06:53:30 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
Reply-To: steele@vlsi.caltech.edu (Craig Steele)
NNTP-Posting-Host: kiwi.cs.caltech.edu
Keywords: programming frameworks object disorientation

My ETO subscription has expired, and I'm trying to decide whether
to renew.  ETO 10, promised for February, should already be in the
can.  It takes some imagination to assign a high dollar value to
this and forthcoming ETO disks given the current public vagueness
of Apple software development plans.  Reviewing ETO 9, we see:

(1) MPW - UNIX(tm Novell?) for the rest of us, some of the power,
    some of the pain.  Future: ?
(2) Object Pascal - Future: Dead
(3) CFront/C - Future: Dying, replaced by Lucid C++ (on future ETO?)
(4) MacApp3 - Future: Dying, replaced by Bedrock (by Symantec, major
    supplier of legal gossip, takeover speculation, incompatible
    C++ and framework library) to be distributed (rumor 1) on ETO,
    but then again (rumor 2) may cost $10K.  (Therefore (new rumor)
	it must follow that ETO will cost ...?)
(5) Numerous support tools, (e.g., SADE, SourceBug, SourceServer, ToolServer)
	all intimately related to above software components.  Future: ?
(6) SLM - allegedly official linking system, with functionality one
    would expect in an application framework (e.g., collection classes)
    or operating system extension (e.g., yet another Apple threads package)
    in yet another Apple dynamic linker.  Future: ?
(7) System 7.1 - Apparently stable OS.  Future: around for a while, but
    will ETO get the new toys (extensions) where all the action is?
	(We won't even think about ukernels or objects or PowerOpen.)
(8) Documentation - Nice new DocViewer stuff, but wouldn't a hardcopy
    of the new IM series be easier to read?  Future: Depends on what's
    left unbundled to document.
(9) Networking tools - MacTCP, etc.  Unaccountably missing from my
    CD-ROM, perhaps misplaced on NT distribution disk.  Future: bright.
(10) QuickTime 1.5 - I like it, but I FTP'd it before I got the ETO.
    Future: Released to Windows at version 1.0, so that must be the
    standard.

So: what's so new and valuable in ETO 10-13 that I shouldn't hoard
my bucks toward a vaguely augured revolution-on-a-CD-ROM that won't
be labelled "ETO"?  ETO was a no-brainer last year, but now I'm
not even sure I can justify it to the IRS, much less my wife.

Should I trust in Clarus (who may or may not be dead) and write another
check? Wait for Component Workshop, Camelot, Dylan, all of which sound
great?  Will all be revealed at MacWorld?  MADACON?  WWDC?  In a dream?

- Craig Steele - In a wholly non-Institutional mode

Craig Steele, steele@vlsi.caltech.edu
From: D0220@AppleLink.Apple.COM (American Zettler, David Every,PAS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re5: Takeover - QA
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:37:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway


    Allright we have had some philisophical arguments about SQA... and we all
understand the complexities of SQA, the reasons for it, the Advantages of an
independant QA, etc.... and we also all understand the real world, sometimes
things need to circumvent full QA to get things done IMMEDIATELY...
 
    The solution is obvious... a versions of MacApp, patched for the "obvious
and easy" fixes that is a Use-At-Your-Own-Risk version (like the MPW beta's)...
in fact there could be Patch/DePatch tool for each of the "known" bugs... and
let the individual decide... this would get the patch to the real world (for
some REAL QA in the place where it counts, the real world)...
 
    This compromise could placate both sides...
 
 
    Dave Every.
From: GILLAM.R@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Richard Gillam,GEIS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re6: Takeover - QA
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:28:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

This has been kind of a fun discussion to watch.
 
I don't have anything useful to contribute, but some of this discussion made me
think of a little anecdote:
 
About a year and a half ago, the entire local phone system in the Washington,
DC area went down.  Totally.  For about a day and a half.  Thoroughly messing
things up around here.  As I remember it, this coincided, within a couple days,
with similar outages in several other major cities.  The problem was traced to
switching equipment manufactured by DSC Communications (which, by the way, is
centered in Plano, Texas, my hometown).
 
Seems DSC had just sent out a small update to the software that runs their
switching equipment.  It patched one line of code (some newspaper accounts said
one BYTE).  Apparently that single change had a bug in it that would cause the
whole shebang to overload and shut down under certain conditions.
 
When I read about the cause in the paper, my first thought was "Oh, boy, heads
are rolling in Plano!"  My second thought was that the poor programmer who
authored the fix probably wasn't in any trouble at all.  The guy who lost his
job was undoubtedly the manager who said "This is such a tiny fix, it doesn't
need to go through QA!"
 
A word to the wise is sufficient...
 
Just the same, Dave Every's "Use at your own risk" solution sounds like a
pretty good way to go.
 
Rich Gillam
GE Information Services
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
From: knee@netcom.com (Mark Lanett)
Subject: Re: Component Workshop
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:57:40 GMT

Chris_Knepper@taligent.com (Chris Knepper) writes:

>Anyone know what the system requirements are for CW 1.0?
>Ram requirements? disk size? processor?
>Also, are the generated applications compatible with Sys 6?

(from their literature)
Development:
	030 or 040 running at 33mhz + FPU (other literature I've seen puts
		a IIci as the base).
	System 7
	20-25 Mb disk space.
	16-20 Mb RAM.
	MPW C (I think this is only needed for extrusion, I imagine Think C
		would work also as they claim the extruded code is pure C).

Extruded Application:
	Classic, 6.0.7. disk/memory footprint depend on App.
	(I remember that Hello World was 150K, "Nothing" about 350K, but
	can't find those numbers in the lit and don't recall if they are
	disk or memory footprints).

Glossary:
	Extrusion: creating a standalone application that doesn't require the
		CW environment to work.
From: ROBERTS@SPECXN.ENET.DEC.COM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Please take me off the mailing
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:30:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

From: SJOIKS!! It's MacMail (without an e)
    <roberts@specxn.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: Please take me off the mailing list
To: mail11.;@specxn.ENET.dec.com (decpa::"macapp3tech$@applelink.apple.com")
Apparently-To: macapp3tech$@applelink.apple.com
From: RSD@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Research SW Design, D Goldman,PRT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Another one! (Part 1)
Date: 5 Jan 93 09:59:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

I'm not hunting for these, really! But here is another tiny bug that I have
just stumbled upon, whose fix I again assert is completely safe to make BY
INSPECTION, without any lengthy QA cycle.
 
I am posting these in part for the usual reason of alerting my fellow
developers to problems they might encounter in their work. But in the context
of this thread, I really do want to demonstrate that there are plenty of truly
localized bugs that somebody could EASILY be fixing in a master copy of MacApp,
and distributing to all of us on a periodic basis.
 
[Again, to avoid any hard feelings, I want to emphasize that the discussion of
these really tiny bugs is not intended in any way as a criticism of MacApp or
its creators and maintainers.]
 
The bug:
 
    In TTabber::Tab we find this:
 
         fNext->BecomeTarget();
         fNext->SetTargetSelection(kRedraw);
 
The problem:
 
    If the current target refuses to resign, and therefore BecomeTarget()
    returns FALSE, we will nevertheless scroll to bring the aborted new
    target into sight. Depending on your situtation, this could actually
    scroll the still-current target out of sight.
 
The solution:
 
         if ( fNext->BecomeTarget() )
           fNext->SetTargetSelection(kRedraw);
 
 
So, anybody have an argument with this one?
 
-- Dave Goldman
   Research Software Design
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
From: gordon@cs.uow.edu.au (Gordon Cheng)
Subject: SQUEEZEBIGCONSTANTS?
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:48:45 GMT

I am compiling a old program i have written with MacApp 2.0.1 with the new 
MPW Shell 3.2 and the new C++ that support MacApp 2.0.1, and the Shell keep on 
going into MacBugs after CFront finish at C with a Bus Error at 
SQUEEZEBIGCONSTANTS+0018, could someone tell me what is going on?
I only want to compile my program.

gordon
-- 
Gordon Cheng			Email: gordon@cs.uow.edu.au
Computer System Officer		PSTNet: (042) 21 3821 (direct)
Department of Computer Science		(042) 21 3859 (dept) 
University of Wollongong	Fax: (042) 21 3262
From: D0220@AppleLink.Apple.COM (American Zettler, David Every,PAS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Griping...
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:32:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway


    I hear a lot of bitching & moaning about ETO... I personally would like to
see "more, better, faster, etc."... but Apple has made a commitment to
developers by even having an ETO... and Apple is attempting to keep us
developers up to date. Most companies I have worked with do NOT distribute
betas of development tools, and keep us at all informed of future developments
(look at Sumantic... they haven't even publicly admitted there will be a
ThinkC++, yet if there isn't what will bedrock be based on?)...
 
    Since the majority of development products supported by Apple are on ETO,
it would be a safe bet that apple will support bedrock (in leue of MacApp) on
ETO... MPW 3.3, Toolserver, SourceServer are still on ETO and being updated.
 
    I would like to see apple license more technology from third parties,
allowing apple to give better support to developers, while not punishing 3rd
party development tools. (Maybe see if they could add tools like Icepick or
ObjectMaster if those companies wanted to add thier products)...
 
    Dave Every.
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
From: sdk@cci632.cci.com (Stephen Knight)
Subject: Overriding with a second resource file
Summary: How to do it so the menus will change?
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:00:22 GMT

Greetings,
	I would like to be able to open a resource file (with
FSpOpenResFile or HOpenResFile) so that I can override the resources
in an application (new menus, text strings, that short of thing).  My 
problem is that I can't seem to find the correct spot such that it will
work for my menus (CMNU).  I only get the CMNU's that exist in the
application file, not the newly opened file (I've tried opening the
resource file in I<my>Application and in main...no luck).

Any ideas?
steve knight
sdk@cci.com
From: tal691@huxley.anu.edu.au (Tonio Loewald)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: ETO-expensive,toothless,ob
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:41:16 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.2.12

GER.XSE0096@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Germany - Ciechowski Computer,IDV) writes:

>Peter,
> 
> 
>you're absolutely right. In addition for a German developer there's still the
>point left that we do not get an ETO when it becomes available but (in most
>cases) about a month later.
> 
>I would at least delay the beginning of my next subscription.
> 
> 
>Ingo Ciechowski
> 
I made the same decision after my subscription ran out with ETO8, but
in my case the decision had been prompted by the prospect of having to
learn and use C++ (which I now hear is in for major changes too --
one can only hope for the better) or be stuck with MacApp 2.0.1.

I wonder how long it will be before ETO is not number 1 in AppleDirect's
hit parade?

Tonio

-- 
Tonio Loewald | tal691@huxley.anu.edu.au | Life is short. Be nice.
"You can lie/You can cry/For all the good it'll do you, you can
die/But when it's done/And the police come/And they lay you down
for dead/Just remember what I said" (Paul Simon-not the senator)
From: MADA@AppleLink.Apple.COM (MADA Admin, Steve Mann,PAS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: MA - Takeover or Death
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:56:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

Mike:
 
As I stated to Dave (privately) when he first started this thread, MADA would
be very willing to participate to handle the logistics of fulfillment,
distribution, advertising, marketing, and general management of the product.
But as I think everyone knows and has stated, we're not set up to handle bug
fixes, QA, revisions, or tech support.
 
So . . . if the group as a whole handles the technical side, and we handle the
mundane side, perhaps it could work. We're certainly willing to give it a shot
if there's interest.
 
Steve
From: COMPONENT@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Component Software, S Ballard,PRT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: COMPONENT SOFTWARE intos
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:29:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

Attn:
Attn:
SentBy: Jennifer Johnson
 
Regarding:                    COMPONENT SOFTWARE intos Component Proponent_
Component Software Corporation introduces the
 Component Proponent Program
 
We are looking for a few good Mac programmers to join our new Component
Proponent Program. Use the fastest development environment available to drive
new business for your consulting company and help us create add-on components,
tools, and sample code. We'll even help you sell your Components to other
Component Workshop(tm) developers worldwide so you can earn some money. After
all, your success is our success.
 
Here's how it works. You get
 
o a single-user license for Component Workshop at a greatly reduced price -
$495 (that's 80% off the list price of $2,495) and unlimited access to our
Bulletin Board System for technical tips, threads with other developers and
file-in's for minor bug fixes.
 
o 120 days of FREE maintenance and significant discounts off annual
maintenance contracts, training, add-on products and upgrades. (You need to
build either sample code or a Component for the BBS within 120 days to qualify
for further discounts).
 
o special access to our Bulletin Board for marketing your Components.
 
Component Workshop is the first "OBJECTS ONLY" dynamic development environment
based on C++. We take the definition of object-oriented programming seriously
and deliver maintainable, easily ported, easy to extend applications which are
built out of reusable parts. Incremental compilation, garbage collection, and
an application framwork ensure that you will develop applications faster than
ever before.
 
Component Workshop is based on C++ and uses a subset of the AT&T's 2.1 C++
standard. You may give up some C++ syntax, but you get back your weekends and
will earn a reputation as someone who delivers NEW APPLICATIONS early -
instead of promises for next year.
 
If you'd like to rapidly grow your business and make a little cash building
reusable Components, join us NOW and start using the most talked about new
development environment available. Call us today at 617/862-9700 and say "I
want to be a Component Proponent!" three times fast.
 
Please note:  COMPONENT WORKSHOP requires a Macintosh IIci or better with a
MC68030 or x040 processor running at 33MHz, System 7, a M68881 floating point
coprocessor, at least 25 Mbytes of hard disk space and 16 Mbytes of physical
memory (20 Mbytes are recommended) and MPW C(tm) for development.
 
These prices are valid in the U.S. only and do not include shipping charges.
From: COMPONENT@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Component Software, S Ballard,PRT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Attention MacApp Programm
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:39:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

Attn:
Attn:
Attn:
SentBy: Jennifer Johnson
 
Regarding:                    Attention MacApp Programmers!
ATTENTION MACAPP PROGRAMMERS!
Component Software Corporation wants to convert you.
 
Starting January 1, 1993, until March 31, 1993, we are offering a "MacApp
TradeUp Special" just to MacApp programmers. Call us with your credit card
number (Visa/MC) and then mail or fax a copy of the cover of your latest
MacApp CD-ROM. We'll ship immediately*!
 
Here's what you get:
 
o An 80% discount - Component Workshop(tm), including our OBJECTS ONLY dynamic
environment, incremental C++ compiler/linker(offering  a 60 to 1 improvement
over a typical MacApp compile to run cycle), garbage collector, portable
application framework, class libraries, integrated tools, the Extruder(tm) and
unlimited access to our Bulletin Board System for $495. (That's a $2,000
savings off the list price of $2,495.)
 
o Discounted Support - Annual maintenance (automatic shipment of maintenance.
releases) for only $200. This is a $175 savings off the standard list price of
$375.
 
o Half priced training - Our two day training program is a sure way to get up
and running as quickly as possible. Held at our Lexington, MA facilities,
training is regularly $1,500 per student. MacApp TradeUp customers may attend
for only $750.
 
COMPONENT WORKSHOP is based on C++ and uses a subset of the AT&T's 2.1 C++
standard. You may give up some C++ syntax, but you get back your weekends and
will earn a reputation as someone who delivers NEW APPLICATIONS early -
instead of promises for next year.
 
Call today if you would like to eliminate long compile cycles and never have
to chase down a nil pointer or other memory management bugs again. As one of
our major customer says: "Turnaround time, turnaround time, turnaround time!"
 
These prices are valid in the U.S. only and do not include shipping charges.
 
Please note:  COMPONENT WORKSHOP requires a Macintosh IIci or better with a
MC68030 or x040 processor running at 33MHz, System 7, a M68881 floating point
coprocessor, at least 25 Mbytes of hard disk space and 16 Mbytes of physical
memory (20 Mbytes are recommended) and MPW C(tm) for development.
 
* The product will ship in two phases, the Development environment immediately
and the Extruder on 4/14/93.
From: PAPERFREE@AppleLink.Apple.COM (PaperFree, Joel Benisch,PRT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Image Files Misbehaving!
Date: 11 Jan 93 02:04:00 GMT
Organization: AppleLink Gateway

Hi There:
 
Something is not right, and we can't figure it out.
 
We created a series of Image Files using LinkSaver 6.1 on a Mac IIfx in our
office.  The files are a whole series of year-end reports that we store on disk
instead of on paper.  They were downloaded from our host and "printed" to disk
using LinkSaver.  We've been doing this for years and everything went without a
hitch.
 
I locked all the files using their "Get Info" dialogs in order to prevent them
from being trashed by accident and then I shared the folder that contains them
on the IIfx in the office so that all members of our staff can have access to
them for review.
 
I then proceeded to copy them to an off site machine for backup purposes.  The
off site machine in my Mac IIci at home.  I copied them using a net-to-net
connection between two Shiva V.32 NetModems.  The entire 10+ MB transferred
just fine.
 
When I try to open any of the locked files on the IIci local drive at home,
Finder properly displays the dialog that informs me that the file is locked and
I won't be able to save any changes.  I click OK.  Then AppleLink returns two
errors and refuses to open any of the locked files.  The first error is
"v.error: -3" and the second error is "Wild TopWindow" !!   Both errors are
presented in the small dialog that AppleLink uses to tell you that it is
"Checking The Network".
 
Now, here's where it gets especially strange.  If I unlock any of the files on
the IIci local drive, they open and display just fine.  If I lock the file
again, it won't open any more.
 
However, if I mount the folder from the IIfx server in the office onto the
desktop of my IIci at home again via the NetModem-to-NetModem connection and
try to open any of the **LOCKED** files stored there, they open just fine even
though they are **LOCKED** !!
 
I have restarted my IIci.  I have verified that I'm using the newest versions
of everything.  I've concluded that the only possible explanation must have
something to do with AppleShare/File Sharing and Folder/File Ownership issues.
Is that possible?
 
To summarize:  two copies of the same file, both locked.  The one on the local
disk won't open.  The one on the remote disk, mounted via the NetModems, will
open.
 
Any ideas?
 
This is perfectly re-creatable.  This is also important because the series of
reports represents all of our year-end analysis of sales and production.  We
are PaperFree Corporation and try to operate that way, which is why we print
them to disk instead of paper!!!  These are, therefore, critical files.
 
I'd appreciate any insight you can provide.
 
Thanks,
Joel M. Benisch CPCU, President
PaperFree Corporation
234 Summit Avenue
Summit, NJ 07901-2202
(201) 992 - 6300 Ext 2003  Voice
(201) 992 - 6666 FAX
From: mikey@wicat.com (Michael D. Rossetti)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: MA - Takeover or Death
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:11:22 GMT
Organization: Jostens Learning Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1

Friends,

My thinking could possibly be flawed on this matter but I offer the
following observation after having given some thought to the 'death' of
MacApp, suggestions to have MADA or some other organization acquire it,
etc:

Observation:
   Bedrock will eventually ship.
   Bedrock _may_ not be the answer many of us are looking for (or maybe
it'll just take some of us a bit longer to accept reality).
   Bedrock will destroy sales of MacApp.
   MacApp will eventually no longer be supported by Apple.
   MacApp is not likely to be a money maker for anyone (MacApp framework
sales just won't be that high).
   No one else will pick up MacApp and put the money into it to perform
serious bug fixes, enhancements, QA, et al.
   WHAT COULD BE BETTER?

Haven't all of us (MacApp devotees) been reluctant to modify the MacApp
sources?  Haven't we been taught that if we muck with MacApp (MuckApp?)
we stand a good chance of mucking things up when the next release comes
out?  Well, there isn't going to be another MacApp release!  We can muck
to our hearts content putting in all those neat fixes and improvements
which we've wanted to for years!  It's ours to do with as we please!

Of course, any enhancements to the Macintosh extensions offerings (ie.
Quickdraw GX, OCE) won't automatically get folded in.  And we won't get
PowerPC support and cross-platform capability.  And...

So maybe what we need to do is have MADA form a loose organization of
MuckAppers who manage a library of changes and enhancements offered by
the members, police one another, publicize status, solicit extensions,
etc.  QA becomes the responsibility of the group as a whole rather than a
cost center.  Sure, there'll be problems but maybe this deserves a bit 'o
thought (because it's a fact MacApp's commercial support is going to
dissappear).

I'd love to hear some discussion on these thougts.


Michael D. Rossetti                Internet:       mikey@wicat.com
Jostens Learning Corporation       AppleLink:      WICAT
WICAT Division                     CompuServe:     71102,475
1875 South State Street            America OnLine: ROSSETTI
Orem, Utah  84059-0539  USA     (801) 223-3285