HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: Saturday, 2 January 1993 19:50:27 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Re: Cutting it off (was: A few facts about circumcision)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Distribution: world

In <1993Jan2.000410.15619@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)  wrote:
# 
# In article <765343d3261909t221@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
# >In <1992Dec31.042213.2523@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)  wrote:
# ># 
# ># Can you explain why child abuse is my (or anyone's) business where I can impose
# ># my views (child protection) and circumcision is not?
# >
# >  I think this thread has been done to death
# 
# Is that why you avoided answering my question or is it because you don't like
# the conclusion that can be drawn from the answer?

  No, because I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.  You, on
  the other hand, appear to have an agenda.  Besides making a nuisance
  of yourself, where do you go from here?

  Your previous question was directed at someone else, but since you
  asked I deny the analogy.  Parental responsibility extends to far
  more serious decisions than circumcision, and if you want to change
  the scope of that responsibility the change has far broader
  consequences than the number of foreskins on the class of '11.

# >  So it comes down
# >  to one of two possibilities:
# >
# >  1) It's up to the parents, who've heard all sorts of reasons why
# >     they shouldn't circumcise and have to decide on their own, or
# >  2) They can't be trusted with the decision, in which case -- what?

  Now it's your turn.  Answer the question.  Choose.

# I disagree, it comes down to a very simple principle:
# It is the boy's body, so it should be his choice.

  Apply your "very simple principle" to the following (true)
  case:

  We are currently faced with the decision of cutting our sons'
  Achilles tendons (and repairing same) to cope with idiopathic
  toe-walking.  Toe-walking can end up destroying their ankles,
  knees, and hips.  Surgery will GUARANTEE that they will always
  have trouble running, jumping, etc.  Behavioral changes can
  accomplish the same results without the harmful consequences,
  but so far have not worked.  Time is running out.  Casting and
  braces haven't helped.  Time is running out.  Do we have them
  cut, or not?  Do we need your permission?  Dr. Edell's?  Do
  we abdicate our responsibility to the superior judgment of a
  six-year-old?  Do we wait until they're 18?

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: Effacing (?)
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:45:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.223805.27394@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> jschwarz@lonestar.utsa.edu (Jan A. Schwarz) writes:
>Hi.  My daughter went to the doctor today.  She is 36 weeks.  He told
>her that she is 40% effaced (this has been just since last Thursday).
>
>Any thoughts as to how long it may be before she has this darling
>baby girl?  I knew nothing about effacing when I had my two (years
>ago).

It's impossible to tell.  Engagement, effacement, and even dilation are
not accurate predictors of when labor will begin.  Some women walk
around effaced and dilated for days or even weeks before real labor
starts.  Others do all their effacement and dilation in three hours of
labor.  The best you can say is "sometime in the next month, probably".

Of course, if you solicit enough guesses, SOMEONE will be right!

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: re: what to do in Boston with 12 year old...
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:48:09 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

The children's museum is pretty good. The computer museum was boring
(for us adults), but children may like it.

A walk in the area around where the Cheers bar is, what do they call
it, they have lots of shops and stuff, is neat. Not the bar itself 
of course :-). There is a street or two there with European style
shops, boutiques, etc which is always busy and interesting to look
at. 

The aquarium is a must! excellent place. While you're going there, 
since the kid(s) are from the midwest, an hour or two around the 
subway will show them something they probably haven't seen; Walk 
around the river at Harvard is nice if the weather permits. 

These were my Boston favorites when I spent 2 months there. I'm not
12 :-) but the idea would be to show the kids things they haven't
seen before. The Chinatown idea suggested by another netter is also
excellent. 

Spiros
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: Effacing (?)
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:56:43 GMT

lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:

>In article <1992Dec21.202237.1292@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>>reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:
>>
>>>It's impossible to tell.  Engagement, effacement, and even dilation are
>>>not accurate predictors of when labor will begin.  Some women walk
>>>around effaced and dilated for days or even weeks before real labor
>>>starts.  Others do all their effacement and dilation in three hours of
>>>labor.  The best you can say is "sometime in the next month, probably".
>>
>>Be careful about what you speak of concerning effacement and dilation.
>>You won't find many women walking around with 100% effacement who are
>>NOT going to be going into labor within the next 24-48 hours.  A woman
>>can be at a certain percentage of effacement AND be a couple of centimeters
>>dilated at the same time, but if she is 100% effaced, there is an 
>>excellent chance that she will kick into active labor within 24 hours,
>>if not sooner, since all that is left at this point is to dilate to
>>10 centimeters and push the little critter out.  Remember that "effacement"
>>is a term used to denote the thinning out of the cervical wall.

>I dont think Allen is right about this. My Doctor told me I was 100% effaced, 
>and I said "Neat, does that mean I will have the baby soon", he said "Nope,
>I think you will make your next appoinment (1 week later)". I did make it,
>and that time I was still 100% effaced, and 3cm dialated. It was the
>day before my due date. He said he still thought I would make it for my
>next appointment. Not quite, I gave birth 5 days later. I was 100% effaced for
>at least 12 days. My doctor didnt seem to think in meant much.


Hmmmmmmm . . . you could be right, or I could be right, or we both could be
right, mainly because each doctor really has a hard time measuring amount of
effacement.  Case in point:  My wife, on both former pregnancies, was told by
her primary ob/gyn that she was 95% effaced, yet when we got to the hospital,
a different doctor (per each visit) said she was more like 75-80% effaced.
It's just really, really difficult for doctors to tell how effaced a woman is,
just as it's very difficult to know how many centimeters a woman is dilated
up to about 5-6 centimeters, at which point it becomes easier to tell.
I don't know if it's fortunate or not, but measuring effacement and dilation
is not an exact science at all, but when dilation is really starting to happening
in a rapid manner, like hours before the baby is born, effacement REALLY is 
closer to 100%, so I agree with you somewhat Laura, although the experience of
my wife suggests that percentage of effacement and amount of dilation really
probably don't mean much (okay, I'm recanting on my earlier posting, but hey, 
I've had a little more time to think on it) until those contractions are getting
more regular, coming quicker and hurting more!  =)

allen
From: rickc@agora.rain.com (Rick Coates)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:20:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.BzxK9u.IMz
Organization: Open Communications Forum

kgatling@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Keith E Gatling) writes:

>Please excuse me for attempting to be rational in the face of such an
>emotional discussion, but so far the only two issues have been been being
>talked about here; religious reasons and vanity; and I distinctly remember
>mentioning a third...ease of maintenance.

Sorry, but it's not that big a deal.

Ears are harder to keep clean.  Do you advocate surgically altering
a child's ears to make them easier to clean?  It would take just a
few, hardly noticible changes to make the human ear much easier to
clean.  Also, navels are a tough one to clean, a few cuts and stitches
would make that a lot easier to clean.  Then, there are toenails...

>something I saw when I was a kid.  I was staying over my friend John's
>house, and the last thing I remember before we went to bed was happening to
>see his mother come in with a Q-Tip and some other stuff (this was a good 25
>years ago, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy) and start doing something to his
>penis.  I thought maybe he'd hurt himself or something, but I wasn't about
>to ask what was going on and embarrass him or myself.  Now I realize what
>was going on...his mother was making sure his foreskin was clean!

>Nah...I'll take circumcision.

Oh, good grief.  It doesn't take q-tips (or a parent's intervention)
to clean a foreskin.  My three year old does it all by himself, and there
have been no problems.


>*Rational* responses, anyone?

You are advocating surgical alteration of a newborn baby's genitals
to make them *easier*to*clean*, and are asking for rational responses?

"Cleaner living through surgery"

Rick

rickc@agora.rain.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: JUTTA.LAGE@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Jutta Lage")
Subject: Re: Circumcision
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:20:49 GMT

This subject is coming up right on time since our baby is due in 7 weeks and
we were just the other day discussing circumcision in case we are having a boy.
Now reading all these messages and comments about this subject on the net
(some of them are actually turning out to be real little arguments...) I can
tell that it still carries the same pros and cons none of them making a real im
pact on the necessaty of this operation. It is  however interesting how men
defend it..... I suppose I will let nature be nature....and will teach my son
the appropriate hygene...
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: exusag@exu.ericsson.se (Serena Gilbert,cs,x0364)
Subject: Male daycare provider/center worker (was Re: Maternity lv and day care)
Reply-To: exusag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 18:27:10 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article 3761@oar.net, ashley@oar.net (Ashley Burns) writes:

> Question: does anyone have a male daycare provider/center worker that
> is not the father of the children?
> 
> --Ashley, ashley@oar.net
>  

There is one male daycare center worker at the daycare my three boys go to.  All the
children really like him (I like him also).  I remember when he first started to work
there all my boys would come home saying "Mr. Chris did this", "Mr. Chris does that"
(playing the guitare, etc.).

Mr. Chris is one of the two primary daycare "teachers" for my 5 year old and both
my husband and I are very pleased with him.  

I personally would like to see more men in the daycare field.  I think it gives a 
child a more balanced outlook.  Unfortunately many daycares don't hire men because
many think that any man that want to look after children is a pervert and will 
molest their child.

There have been some comments about Mr. Chris working there (i.e. that he shouldn't),
but the comments generally come from men (actually one).  Guess they are worried that
he might flirt with their wives or they feel guilty about not spending time with 
their children.

-Serena

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 13:17:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.210135.19604@jmb2.jmb.com> lewism@jmb2.jmb.com (Mike Lewis) writes:
>The One and Only (jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: It is hard for us to let continue a practice with no good reason that involves
>: a non-consenting third party.  It would be a totally different matter if
>: the decision were your's about your body.
>
>Who is this mysterious "us" you refer to?  Is "us" everyone who happens to
>agree with your point of view?  What other decisions regarding *my* children
>do you believe this "us" is entitled to make?
>
>Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about corporal punishment?  If I had to
>guess, I would say that you are probably opposed to it, perhaps strongly so.
>It is probably hard for you (and this "us" you mentioned) to let continue a
>practice with "no good reason" that involves a non-consenting third party.
>Frankly, it's none of your business, unless it crosses the line into child
>abuse.  Here's hoping it stays none of your business in the future.
>
>As far as circumcision is concerned, I guess I'm "on the fence".  However, I


	Sound like an equally painfull position.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: tommy@boole.att.com (Tommy Reingold)
Subject: Re: Circumcision etc.
Reply-To: tommy@boole.att.com
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel, NJ, USA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:07:35 GMT
Originator: tommy@hoodlum

anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje) writes:

$ How COMMON is penile cancer? I would think it is quite rare. If one was
$ to use this argument then since 1 out of 9 women will get breast
$ cancer in their life all newborn girls should have mastectomies!
$ [...]

How can they remove a gland that does not yet exist?
-- 
Tommy Reingold
AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel, NJ
tommy@boole.att.com or att!boole!tommy
From: debra@pyramid.unr.edu (Debra Estabrook)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Need Ideas -- Keeping a child in her bed
Date: 21 Dec 92 19:53:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science

I have a 2 1/2 year old little girl who does not want to stay in her new bed.  
She is not an undisciplined child but she finds it amusing to keep getting
up when we put her to bed.  We have tried discipline and rewards and she
still gets up, so we have to go back to putting her in her crib where she
falls fast asleep.  She says she want to sleep in her big bed but does
not stay there.

Any ideas in keeping her there?
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: goldberg@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg)
Subject: Re: Hormonally Enhanced
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center - Greenbelt, MD, USA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:15:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.095331.119687@marshall.wvnet.edu>, swk004@marshall.wvnet.edu writes...
> 
>Ah, yes, I was more hormonally enhanced than most.  I vividly remember
>breaking down and *sobbing* when I viewed a cup and a pool of liquid
>lying near a coffee machine in the hospital lobby.  
> 
>I was just sure that some poor person who desperately needed that cup
>of coffee had used their last quarter to purchase it and now they
>were coffeeless.  The fact that I really, really missed coffee when 
>I was pregnant may have had something to do with this.
> 
>But Jerry learned to quickly click the remote when McDonald's commercials
>came on (I was newly pregnant during the holidays).....a typical holiday
>McDonald's commercial would set me to sniveling, boohooing or outright
>sobbing without fail.
> 
Well, does anyone else find that just having kids around makes you
more prone to being moved by tearjerking movies? I've always
been emotional, but it seems that since I have become a mother,
I cry more easily at movies and commercials and some books (if
you really want a good cry try 'Love You Forever', forget the
author right now).
                        Patti Twigg
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: MAHER@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu (Cynthia Maher)
Subject: Re: Hormonally Enhanced
Organization: The Ohio State University - OCES
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:08:07 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Dec22.095331.119687@marshall.wvnet.edu> swk004@marshall.wvnet.edu writes:

> 
> But Jerry learned to quickly click the remote when McDonald's commercials
> came on (I was newly pregnant during the holidays).....a typical holiday
> McDonald's commercial would set me to sniveling, boohooing or outright
> sobbing without fail.
> 
> Connie


I remember reading a book to my two boys during my last pregnancy.  My husband
was also in the room.  The book rapidly got *very* silly, and it wasn't long
until we were all laughing hysterically (at least I thought the book was
funny--maybe the rest of them were laughing at mom acting so weird!).  The next
thing I knew, I was sobbing hysterically and couldn't stop for a good hour.  My
husband had to take over reading the book and explain mom's strange behavior to
the boys.

Glad those days are over for now!  I do wish I could remember the title of that
book, though.  I'd really like to try it again now that I'm not pregnant.

Cindy
Xref: sparky misc.kids:31390 sci.med:23352
From: lmann@jjmhome.UUCP (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,sci.med
Subject: Re: Ritalin
Date: 3 Jan 93 14:51:45 GMT
Followup-To: poster

In article <93003.114619X42125@BARILVM.BITNET>, X42125@BARILVM.BITNET writes:
> My 10 year old
> son has ben on Ritalin for 1 year now
> (1 pill 2 times a day) and he has
> been having lately violence attacks.
> My doctor has told me to cut the doze
> to half a pill since he said that at
> the end of the pill - there are some
> cases of violence.  I have heard of
> other pills - Dexadrine, Cylert and
> Tofranil - can any of these be used
> to cut down random violent outbursts
> and be used insted of Ritalin?

My daughter has been on Ritalin since she was 7---she's 12 now.
She's ALWAYS had "violent outbursts," though these tend to be
a little better and more infrequent when she's taking Ritalin than
when she's not.

They have gotten a little more severe lately.  She's having more trouble
concentrating, and she seems depressed.  I don't tend to attribute
these problems to the Ritalin, as much as to her severe attention
deficit.  I plan to talk to her pediatrician about adjusting or even
changing her medication tomorrow.  I'd also be interested in hearing
about other medications that might be more appropriate for an
adolescent.

*     NeXT: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com * GEnie:  Laurie.Mann     *
*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak  *
*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I  *
*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade  *  
*  unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist..  *
*Then they came for me---and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
*       Martin Niemoeller     Why to March on Washington, 4/93        *
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: "Peter Beckman" <beckman@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision (human rights?)
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 11:51:18 -0500

>> What an illogical statement.  I mean on WHAT OTHER BASIS would someone 
>> make a judgement about something other than personal experience?

>Well, let's see.  How about REASON, or maybe HUMAN RIGHTS?  [...]

I've never quite understood this position.  Many people are often
against notions of Big Brother, thought police, media censorship, etc.
But when crusading about particular issues, the noble notion of "Human
Rights" usually get turned into ideas about governmental intervention
and control.

I have no problem with people saying "Parents who do <action> are
<stupid | immoral | bad> parents".  Of course a less combative
presentation usually makes the thread more readable.  But trotting out
"Human Rights" when discussing the parent/child relationship is, in
all but a few cases, silly.  Children are not adults.  Parents have a
legal responsibility to make the best decisions they can about the
well-being of their kids.  Would you prefer, in the name of "Human
Rights", Big Brother make decisions about spanking, circumcision, ear
piercing, medical treatment, dietary choices, and participation in
religion?

-Pete
From: peac@sybase.com (Jeff Peacock)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Childcare Holiday standards
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:21:47 GMT
Reply-To: peac@sybase.com (Jeff Peacock)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

I have a question for those of you who use day care.  How do your daycare
providers charge for Holidays/Vacations?

Our daycare provider is taking off 6 of the next 10 days for the
Christmas/New Years holiday, but she wants to be paid as if she were
here the whole time.  We understand that if we don't leave Kiera in
daycare that we are still responsible for paying for her slot, but we
are a little disgruntled to find that we are paying for time when no
daycare is going to be provided regardless of our wishes.

Is this standard?  Kiera really loves this provider (As you know if you
saw my post on her crying when she has to go home with Mommy.  Thank you
for you support on that.  I got a lot of good advice on drawing out the
transition so that she could get used to the idea.).  We think she's really
good with kids, although she doesn't seem to bond quite as well with adults,
so it would be hard to leave and find a new provider, but if she's ripping
us off this might be the final straw. 

Thanks,
Jeff
--
ADVISORY:  Any use of this information, in any mannner whatsoever, will increase
the amount of disorder in the universe.  The reader is warned that this process
will ultimately lead to the heat death of the universe.  No responsibility will
be accepted for any damages or inconvenience that may result.
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:21:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.172939.18506@newstand.syr.edu> kgatling@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Keith E Gatling) writes:
>In article <1glhqeINNi59@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> potts@oit.itd.umich.edu
>(Paul Potts) writes:
>
>   > What they really mean is that Daddy doesn't want to admit to
>   > himself that he is the one who is "different" by virtue of
>   > genital mutilation...  and is willing to inflict the same
>   > treatment on son to justify it.
>
>Let's try this one more time...I *don't* consider myself to have been
>mutilated, and I'm actually *glad* that I *am* circumcised.  I'm also glad
>that it was done so early in my life that I have no memory of it, and as a
>result, intend to do the same if our child is a boy.
>
>So now...what do you have to say to a person who intends to have his kid
>circumcised because he looks at his circumcision as *an advantage*?
>
>* Keith E Gatling                                  kgatling@mailbox.syr.edu *


I say, let him decide for himself when he's 18.  You can tell
him all the pro's, and he may agree with you.  By the way, you 
didn't weigh the pro's and con's yourself; you decided it was an 
advantage, without having any personal point of comparison (or choice).

You can't *ever* give your son the choice, if you amputate his foreskin 
when he's a baby.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged