From: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Gish v. Ross on Focus on the Family
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:58:49 GMT
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI


Gish/Ross Debate on Focus on the Family: Part 2

This is a rough reconstruction (the best I can remember from listening to it on
my way from home to Vic Tanny's and again on the way from Vic Tanny's to work)
of part 2 of the Gish/Ross interview on Focus on the Family.  
You can get a cassette of the tape by calling FoF at
1-800-A FAMILY, or by writing to them: Focus on the Family, 
Colorado Springs, CO 80995.  
They do ask for a $5.00 contribution to cover the cost of the cassette.
I intend to order the cassette and will post my
comments/corrections on anything I have omitted or stated incorrectly here.

Introductory material


Dobson explained that he had interviewed Gish several years ago and had
interviewed Ross in December, 1991.  He reported that the mail on the Ross
interview was "overwhelmingly positive, with only a very few negative
responses."

Establishing the age of the universe

Ross:   The universe is big, very big (honest, he said it. Doug Adams
        ask for your copyright fee)...
Dobson: Duane, I suppose you would say that if the universe is as big as the
        astronomers claim, that God created the light from distant stars in
        transit
Gish:   Yes, that's what I would say...
Ross:   But that conclusion is not supported by the evidence. 
        We have measurements which prove...
Gish:   (Interrupting) You have no measurements which prove anything...
Ross:   Light which travels long distances through space encounters dust
        which tends to broaden spectral lines. The more dust, the more
        broadening.  Starlight arriving here gives every indication of having
        traversed the estimated distance between the source and earth,

        rather than originating at some point between.

(additional discussion about red shift in which Ross asks Gish, 
"Then you don't believe the universe is expanding?" Gish waffles a little
and then ticks off a short list of astronomers who "don't believe the red 
shift means the universe is expanding.")


Hard questions

Dobson: Before we began this interview, I told each of you that I had some hard
questions to ask. Hugh, one thing which concerns me about your belief is that
with the earth being billions of years old, there must have been billions of
years during which there was death. Animals tearing one another apart for food.
My understanding from the Bible has always been that when God first created the
earth, it was perfect. How do you square these two statements?

Ross:   Well, at a Bible study at Caltech last year some of us were studying
Revelation 21 and discovered that the Bible teaches that God will remake the
universe with new physical laws, and then everything will be perfect. I believe
that when God made the universe he crafted the laws of physics so that once man
made the choice to sin, bringing evil into the world, it would take only a very
short time - a few thousand years for God to deal with it. Then things will be
ready for the perfect creation.

Dobson: (begins to pose a followup question to Gish)...
Gish:   (Interrupting) Jim, I don't think he answered your question ...

        now maybe he believes that the Bible only means that there was no

        human death before the Fall..
Ross:   Yes, that's what I believe...
Dobson: Duane, I also have a hard question for you: I don't believe that
        trying to develop a logical, scientific explanation for how the

        universe developed necessarily removes God...
Gish:   Well, you see, once someone develops a naturalistic explanation,

        then how is anyone going to see God in natural phenomena...
Ross:   I'd like to read a paragraph from "The symbiotic universe" by
        Greenstein, an astronomer who is not a believer: 
        (quotes a paragraph speculating that the Big Bang theory may

        point to an intelligent creator)

        ...

Charity

Dobson: After all the differences we've discussed,  what do you have to
        say to the person who comes from a very different perspective from your
        own. Doesn't there have to be some Christian charity between those of
        differing views?

Gish:   Oh, yes.  That's why Hugh and I have a very cordial relationship

Ross:   I'm glad you feel that way, but it disturbs me that one of your ICR
        colleagues called me "an Apostate with no heart for missions" in print

Gish:   Mumbles something like, "I don't know who would have done that.

        Sounds very unkind to me," followed by some mumbling I missed.

Other observations

Gish repeatedly linked biological evolution with big bang cosmology.  
His view seemed to be that if you believe the universe evolved, then you 
have to accept that life evolved. Another concern he had with Ross' views 
was that nonbelieving scientists agree with his cosmology. 
When Dobson asked him why that was a problem, he launched into a discussion 
of two New Testament miracles: turning water into wine and the raising of
Lazarus, worrying that someone might develop a naturalistic explanation of
those. The paradigm that a naturalistic explanation excludes God seems 
to be very firmly fixed in his mind.


Bill Hamilton
GM Research and Environment Staff