HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: spoiled brats who train
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:22:02 GMT

hweingra@.com (Howard Weingram) writes:

>In article <1992Aug12.193728.25708@geovision.gvc.com> pt@geovision.gvc.com writes:
>>I say that the rowing events at the olympics should have had the WR times
>>for comparison.  Sure, don't count them if the wind is above a certain
>>amount, but at least let the _fans_ see where they compare.

>Frankly, the informed fans know better, and you won't find very many
>uninformed rowing fans. You either love the sport and know about it
>or you don't, and don't care.  

First off, I'd like to apologize to all the dedicated rowers and paddlers
out there.  I was basing my opinion of high caliber atheletes on a few
second hand reports, and a few personal experiences, some of which I've
mentioned earlier in this thread.

BUT, as someone who has raced 35km cross country skiing in -40,
orienteered in freezing rain where I had to use my teeth to close the
punch because my hands were too numb, cycled into a howling wind on
muddy trails, in each case I've had some sort of goal to meet, some
benchmark to know if I'd done well, or only "as well as could be
expected".  I reiterate:  it would be _really_ nice to have a goal time
- some sort of benchmark so we know if the rower/paddler(s) are really
the best in the world, or just the best of those who showed up.

As it was, the only way I could tell who was pulling really hard, and who
had decided to relax was by looking at the whirlpools and counting the
stroke rate.  I'm _not_ a dedicated rowing/paddling fan - I'm a wilderness
canoe tripper who got interested because Canada was doing so well, and
because of the human interest of the Silken Laumann story. 

If you ask any Canadian now, or a year from now, what was the proudest
moment to be a Canadian, they would probably say it was when Silken, having
dropped down to a very respectible 4th, fought back and took the Bronze.
I'm sure rowing in Canada will have a huge boom in a couple of years
because of all this publicity - so you guys better watch out for the
ice-breaker skulls.

-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com (Not an official spokesman, blah, blah...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Engineers aren't as smart as they like to be told they are." - told to me
 by Heather Killam the co-op.  (It sounded funnier after a lot of beer!)
From: dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Whitewater food
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:01:39 GMT
Organization: Sony Microsystems Corp, San Jose, CA

On most boat trips, I take along a standard sandwich and bar (fig,
fiber, sports, etc.) kind of lunch -- nothing really elaborate,
but filling.

The problem is that I find that this kind of lunch is not
very productive.  If I'm tired (such as after having just run
several tough rapids), I can't eat much of a sandwich, and
if I'm in a hurry (damned dams), I can't always afford the time
to digest it.

What I need is something that's tasty, easy to eat, and easy to
digest.  It should be immune to water damage and resistant to
getting banged up (both due to packing problems and due to
flips).
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: Robert.Holton@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Robert Holton)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:15:48 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <85972@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>While your initial point is true, kayakers do not rely solely on their
>arms and shoulders.  Good kayaking stroke technique relies on the paddler's
>ability to use their abdominal and leg muscles to propel the boat forward
>each time the blade is planted.

Could you expand on that for me? I've kayaked and have noticed that there
is an effect on abs and legs when moving fast, but it felt like I was
bracing myself in the boat so I could make the most use of my arms and
shoulders. I've never been coached in a kayak though so could be doing it
all wrong! A sculler will get more than half, probably 2/3rds, of his
power from his legs, what sort of proportion would a kayaker get?

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:41:02 EDT
From: <JPN@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Olympic Slalom Judging

At the South Bend race i had the opportunity to talk with several of the
people who had been to Spain (either team members or support personnel).
The impression was that the judging was poor and it cost the U.S. Team
three medals:  Lugbill in C-1 because of the touch that was not called on
Pollert; Weiss lost a bronze because he was given a touch that team people
said they could not see; and McEwan/Haller in C-2 because the third place
team was not given a penalty for a touch.

From the TV broadcast it appears that the judges are closer to the river (sic)
that the spectators, who appear to be pulled back behind some fencing.  However
i cant see all that many judges in the TV coverage and since this was the
Olympics  the place should have been covered from all important angles.  All
this points out the importance of good judging and good race logistics.  It
is a shame that four of the finest people in the sport did not medal due to
poor judging.
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: sixth water
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:22:34 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Utah

today's (mon 17 august) salt lake tribune describes a newly-discovered
class V "irrigation ditch" in north-central utah.

sixth water comes from strawberry reservoir, via a diversion tunnel
built around 1915.  it carries about 400 cfs late in the summer when
central utah farmers need the water.

gary nichols, author of "river runners guide to utah," is quoted
several times in the article.  so far, he and just a few others are
known to have run sixth water.  nichols rates it at class V, largely
because of a gradient between 200 and 280 feet per mile.  nichols
says: "if you tip over in sixth water, you would be beat to death.  it
would be no fun at all."

i love the names that nichols and his companions mark white and roy
piskadlo have given to the rapids.  they are clearly a poke at the
quirky mormon culture of utah.  some examples:

*	"mission call"
*	"unborn soul"
*	"baptism falls"
*	"celestial gorge"

and my favorite:	

*	"sister jensen's green jello surprise"

the run is located in diamond fork canyon.  if memory serves, the
turnoff to diamond fork is along us 50 and sr 6 in spanish fork
canyon.  i'm going to try to look at it this coming weekend.  i doubt
i'll take my boat with me, unless some other intrepid kayakers offer
to come along.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Subject: Re: flatwater kayaks - way different!
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:44:18 GMT

In article <3332@ra.nrl.navy.mil>,
schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette) writes:
>
(burp)
>the water line), and can have no concave surfaces in either longitudinal
>or laterally on the boat.  Concave surfaces on the diagonal have been
>successfully fought with the judges - not easy.  Flatwater kayaks

Interesting... what would be the advantage of a concave surface in
a kayak?  or do you mean the general cambre of the boat?  Aren't
there also strict regulations as to hull surfacing, etc.?

Mike
From: M14661@mwvm.mitre.org
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Kayaking vs. Rowing
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:01:30 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102

In article <1992Aug12.181548.12803@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Robert.Holton@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Robert Holton) writes:
 
>
>In article <85972@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>While your initial point is true, kayakers do not rely solely on their
>>arms and shoulders.  Good kayaking stroke technique relies on the paddler's
>>ability to use their abdominal and leg muscles to propel the boat forward
>>each time the blade is planted.
>
>Could you expand on that for me? I've kayaked and have noticed that there
>is an effect on abs and legs when moving fast, but it felt like I was
>bracing myself in the boat so I could make the most use of my arms and
>shoulders. I've never been coached in a kayak though so could be doing it
>all wrong! A sculler will get more than half, probably 2/3rds, of his
>power from his legs, what sort of proportion would a kayaker get?
>
My understanding is that you are correct.  Kayakers do *not* get power from
their legs, as rowers do.  The legs *are* involved in ensuring that there is
the maximum possible transfer of power into moving the boat, with little loss.
For example, if you try just sitting in a kayak and sweeping left (to turn
right) you'll turn.  Now actually push on the left footbrace while turning,
and it's easy to feel the difference.  However canoeists and kayakers use
upper body strenght, not upper and legs, as rowers and x-country skiers do.
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: flatwater kayaks - way different!
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:22:50 GMT
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Physical Acoustics, Washington, DC

Flatwater kayaks and equipment are optimized for straightline competitions.
There is only one stroke type in flatwater races and for a 1000m race
this would average 120 strokes a minute.  For a 6' person the paddle 
is around 222 to 224 cm.  Team boats will use longer/shorter depending
on seat position in the boat. (first seat = shorter, 3rd or 4th seat
where the water is dirty would use a longer blade).  Current paddle
technology is the "Wing", it has a curved surface with a lip on the
trailing edge.  The effective use of the wing requires good rotation and
definetly emphasizes the swing motion. (check old footage from 84/88 
and there is a hug difference in style).  The optimum length of paddle/
stroke rate is argued over, with trends going from short(faster rate) to
long (slower rate) depending on what the current world champ is doing.
Energy expended and translated into forward motion is the key, and
people spend a lot of time and effort optimizing this. 

Flatwater kayaks are optimized for speed.  There are IOC regulations wrt
maximum length, minimum width (has to be a certain width somwhere on
the boat - hence the diamond shape.  NB, this is usually only above
the water line), and can have no concave surfaces in either longitudinal
or laterally on the boat.  Concave surfaces on the diagonal have been
successfully fought with the judges - not easy.  Flatwater kayaks
also have a rudder, and a shape that promotes straight traking.  The
shape being optimized for maximum hull speed is extremely tippy.  The
average white water paddler will take about a month to get used to it.
Falling out of the boat at the start (stationary is harder) or after
the finish is not uncommon.

Larry
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater footwear
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:37:53 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Aug17.230755.15066@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by
>5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good.

I've tried my Tevas in the boat, but I'm not happy with them for two reasons:

1. The soles don't flex very much (compared to the wetsuit booties I usually
use) making it difficult to maneuver my feet around.  It's not easy to get
them off the footbraces and into the "rest" position I use for drifting.
But that's not much of a big deal compared to...

2. I'm concerned that the straps on the Tevas might catch on the footbraces
at just the wrong time.  If I had bulkhead-style footbraces, this wouldn't be
an issue; but with the Yakima pegs it could be a problem.

---Rsk
From: ejmrs@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Eric J. Manders)
Subject: European Kayak Tour
Originator: ejmrs@isi0
Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 20:01:00 GMT

This posting is an announcement of a:

1993 EUROPEAN KAYAK TOUR

This tour will visit some of the most spectacular white water rivers
in western Europe. The tour will be organized by an outdoor sports organization
(skiing and kayaking) called "Kano Ski Europe" (KSE), which has its home
base in the Netherlands.

KSE sets up camp in Switzerland, France and Italy from early May until
the middle of August. During the spring they also travel to Corsica
for a few weeks. From these camps they give instruction courses for
beginners and intermediate paddlers, as well as "guided tours" along
the rivers for advanced paddlers. The organization has much experience in all
locations.

I am not associated with KSE, but have taken courses with them both in
Switzerland and in France, all were good experiences. The idea for this
tour comes from a friend of mine who works as a kayak instructor for
KSE during the summer. I am posting this on his request since they do
not have access to the net. Do not mistake the tour for a purely
commercial undertaking. It's primary purpose is to make some contacts
with whitewater paddlers from the United States.

THE TOUR:

*General Information

The 1993 European Kayak Tour is intended for advanced paddlers (let's say,
comfortable on a class IV rapid). It has not been done before in
the proposed form and is not yet fully detailed. There is no cost
estimate yet but the term 'low budget' will definately apply.
The Tour will take place in 1993 sometime early May/late April
(optimal water levels) and will be about three weeks long. Intended
travel is with one van and one car, with about twelve participants.

KSE will provide river guidance (White Water instruction certification
is controlled by the Dutch Canoe Association), transportation, food,
camping and river gear (complete or only boat/paddle). KSE uses Prijon
boats of all types, but other equipment may also be available.

Travel to Europe will be through Paris. Air travel is cheaper from the
United States then in Europe so it will not be provided.

*The Rivers:

The rivers (or stretches thereof) that will be visited are all used by
KSE for their intermediate courses and tours for advanced paddlers.
They will include:

France (Alps): 		Gorge du Verdon, Guil, Ubaye.
France (Corsica): 	Travo, Callasima, Vechio.
Switzerland (Alps): 	Inn.
Italy:	 		Vasasca, Canobino, Dora Baltea, Ossola.

As mentioned before, organization of this trip is still in progress.
If you are interested in it please let me know through Email and I
will keep you informed through Email, and with written material as
soon as it is available.

-- Eric Manders
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,news.answers
From: bobm@anasazi.com (Bob Maccione)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Bikayaking?
Date: 11 Aug 92 17:28:10 GMT
Organization: Anasazi Inc, Phoenix AZ USA

In article <9493@cayman.COM> pgf@cayman.COM (Paul Fox) writes:
 >yking@cs.ubc.ca (Yossarian Yggy King) writes:
 >: Has anyone rigged a trailer for towing a kayak behind a bike?
 >
 >I just saw someone (this weekend) on Mass. Ave in north Cambridge towing
 >a windsurfer beind them...  I don't see that it would be that much more
 >difficult to rig a kayak...
 >

The magazine "Wind Surfing" has had an ad for such a device.  It's
been around for quite awhile.

bob
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:53:43 EDT
From: <JPN@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: South Bend slalom results

C-1: Prentice (198.45); Hearn (202.07); Faloci (204.87)

K-1W: Loubie (210.97); Freeburn (211.13); Hearn (212.01)

K-1: Shipley (185.43); Regnier (187.46); Gendreaux (189.77)

C-2: Matti/Matti (214.86); Jacobi/Strausbaugh (220.20); Saidi/Daval (222.18)
Xref: sparky rec.boats.paddle:1444 rec.sport.olympics:4497
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,rec.sport.olympics
Subject: Olympic Whitewater Slalom Results: Final Standings, K-1W, C-1
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:55:33 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

[ Sorry for the delay folks; it took a while to retrieve the complete
results from the New York Times. ---Rsk ]

K-1W Slalom, Final Standings

126.41	Elisabeth Micheler, Germany
128.27	Danielle Anne Woodward, Australia
131.75	Dana Chladek, USA
132.29	Eva Roth, Germany
132.89	Marian Aguihon, France
134.49	Kordule Striepecke, Germany
135.79	Zdenka Grossmannova, Czechoslovakia
138.06	Joanne Woods, Canada
139.51	Cathy Hearn, USA
140.38	Lynn Simpson, Britain
140.81	Anne Boixel, France
141.43	Stepanka Hilgertova, Czechoslovakia
142.26	Karen Like, Britain
143.39	Maria Eizmedni Perez, Spain
145.36	Margaret Langford, Canada
147.64	Rachel Fox, Britain
149.02	Cristina Martinez Arrieta, Spain
149.03	Cristina Giaipron, Italy
149.59	Boguslawa Knapczyk, Poland
150.38	Marcela Sadilova, Czechoslovakia
150.76	Myriam Jerusalmi-Fox, France
156.09	Sheryl Boyle, Canada
158.84	Hiroko Kobayashi, Japan
160.83	Dzintra Bluma, Latvia
193.80	Maylon Hanold, USA
640.27	Gilda Montenegro Conejo, Costa Rica

C-1 Slalom, Final Standings

113.69	Lukas Pollert, Czechoslovakia
116.48	Gareth Marriot, Britain
117.18	Jacky Avril, France
118.62	Jon Lugbill, USA
119.02	Renato De Monti, Italy
119.19	Martin Lang, Germany
119.19	Emmanuel Brugvin, France
120.23	Juraj Ontko, Czechoslovakia
120.41	Danko Herceg, Croatia
121.09	Bostjan Zitnik, Slovenia
121.57	David Hearn, USA
121.57	Mike Corcoan, Ireland
122.12	Grzegorz Sarafa, Poland
122.26	Joze Vidmar, Slovenia
122.37	Zbigniew Mlazek, Poland
123.94	Borut Javornik, Slovenia
124.80	Soeren Kaufmann, Germany
124.91	Thierry Humeau, France
128.96	Larry Norman, Canada
128.98	Peter Eckhardt, Australia
129.23	Adam Clawson, USA
135.71	Roy Sharplin, Canada
136.98	Stjepan Perestegi, Croatia
139.38	Marc Vicente Cases, Spain
139.61	Mark Delaney, Britain
140.60	Leonardo Selbach, Brazil
142.61	Krzysztof Bieryt, Poland
144.74	Pere Guerrero Torrecillas, Spain
149.53	Jakub Pruher, Czechoslovakia
157.80	Daniel Norman, Canada
170.22	Lazo Mildevich, Yugoslavia
From: ccoombs@pilot.njin.net (Cliff Coombs)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: How windy?
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:16:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Since colder air has greater density than warmer air it produces more
force against the sails.  Hence a 10 knot breeze in the spring is more
like 12 knot breeze in the summer.  (your mileage may vary)  I learned
this from a sailmaker who claimed this is taken into consideration
when designing sails for different parts of the world.  Even though
the air *feels thicker* on a hot humid day it's lighter then dry cool
air.  Clouds are a good example of light water vapor.  

Cliff
-- 
 Cliff Coombs                        Voice (908) 527-2729  Fax (908) 355-5143 
 Campus Network Administrator                          ccoombs@pilot.njin.net
 Kean College of New Jersey                             ccoombs@luau.kean.edu
 Disclaimer: "I know noth-ink" -Schultz (Hogan's Heros)   ccoombs@njin.BITNET
From: fgz@ddxrus.enet.dec.com (Federico Genoese-Zerbi)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Flares (was: Re: snow goose)
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:28:51 GMT
Reply-To: fgz@ddxrus.enet.dec.com (Federico Genoese-Zerbi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <2285@unet.UUCP>, johng@gratton.net.com (John Gratton) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug12.162125.12849@phri.nyu.edu> roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu
(Roy Smith) writes:
|> >	What does one do with old, outdated, flares?  Is there a safe way
|> >to dispose of them?
|> >
|> 
|> 	I think you can take them to your local fire department.
|> 


If I'm not mistaken, occasionally the USCG will set aside a time period and area
for
people to fire flares to test them.  One could go and "test" all the expired
ones
at such an event.

F.
From: jkenna@bcm.tmc.edu (Jed Kenna)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: QE II Grounding - who is in charge?
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:53:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: gazette.14097
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine

In article <1684281B4.STU@mwvm.mitre.org> STU@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
> My understanding of marine law (very limited) is that the Captain in in 
charge
> of the ship at all times - the pilot is on board as an advisor.  Some of 
the
> news reports claimes the owner said that a pilot was on board and in 
charge
> at the time of the accident?  What is the true scoop?
>
Good question.
My recollection as a junior naval officer several decades ago is that a
captain is not responsible on two occasions. One is when the stem or stern
of the ship crosses the sill of the dry dock. The other is after 
decommissioning. On all other occasions, I think the captain is ultimately responsible.
It'll be interesting to hear what out admiralty lawyer friends have to say.
 
> My understanding is that a ship master was required to be aware of her 
position
> at all times - and kept a running log and DR plot of position on frequent
> intervals - depending on speed.  I further understood that most 
commercial
> ships have an automated plotting device to meet this requirement.  In 
this
> day of GPS, I had assumed that they know the position within a few feet 
at
> all times - why is there a question about the position?
>  
I can imagine the QE II knows where her track, but doesn't know exactly when 
the incident occurred and exactly where she was when it occurred.
 
Jed

Baylor College of Medicine
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: spencer@panix.com (David Spencer)
Subject: Re: protest question, rule 32.1
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:42:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

guido@blink.att.com (Guido Bertocci) writes:

>The point of rule 32.1 is to prevent a right-of-way boat from driving
>the point home against another boat by intentionally running 
>into another boat and causing serious damage.
>An example would be a port starboard situation where the
>starboard tack boat sees the port tack boat coming yells starboard
>several times sees that the port tack boat is not going to cross
>and then T-bones them in the middle.  The starboard tacker had
>the opportunity and failed to attempt to avoid the collision.
>Rule 32.1 is designed to protect a boat from physical damage once
>they have made a mistake which would DSQ them anyway.

It's just dumb to hit another boat if you can avoid it. No amount of
ducking, luffing, tacking or pinching is ever going to slow you down
as much as hitting another boat.

At the '90 Sonar NA's, we were on starboard with many boats on both
hips. It was just after the start, with a 50-boat fleet and 25 kts of
wind. A port-tacker charged across our bow; we hailed like mad, but
she kept coming. We had nowhere to go, so we T-boned her.

When we got free of her, we were dead in the water.  We went from
building speed at the head of the fleet to DFL in everybody's bad
air.  We never dug out; that race ended up as our throwout.

Even a rub is going to transfer momentum. Don't do it.


dhs    spencer@panix.com    Sonar 404
"Upon reading Goethe, I am always struck by the paralyzing
 suspicion that he is trying to be funny" - Waugh