From: tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Timo Ahonen)
Newsgroups: soc.rights.human,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.celtic,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Separation vs. integration (Was Re: The European Community Blackmailed by Greece)
Date: 27 Jul 92 10:55:08 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Computing Centre

In article <1992Jul23.010149.7899@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) writes:

>In article <tahonen.26@katk.Helsinki.FI>, tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Timo
>Ahonen) writes:

>|>You cannot just expect that after the same length of suppression, now in the 
>|>midst of poverty and national re-discovery those nations would be 
>|>immediately ready for the same kind of integration and mutual trust as in 
>|>the West. 

>National rediscovery? What prey is that? 

For instance in Estonia re-discovering their national past from the era 
before the Soviet occupation, i.e. the first independence and before that, 
which was all just not discussed during the Soviet Union, because it was 
'bourgeous'. Nationalistic songs and books which were banned, national 
heroes and statesmen who were removed from the history of the Soviet 
Estonia. The whole history which was forged by the Soviets. Etc., etc.

>|> However, the example of the peaceful 
>|>splitting of the in itself artificial state of Czecho-Slovakia seems to 
>|>indicate that at least they are well into catching up with us.

>And just why should splitting a state into two be any sort of progress?
>The trend in Europe and North America is entirely in the opposite
>direction. The CIS is a strange creation, but still caries out much the
>same functions as the original US federal govt did. 

I wasn't referring to the splitting as progress but the peacefulness of it: 
Czecks and Slovaks are arguing about quite a lot in the splitting, but still 
they have firmly decided to *talk* their differences through.

The trend in North America: Canada's PM Mulroney didn't come to Helsinki 
CSCE Meeting since his state is about to break up (Quebec). The trend in 
Europe: Czecho-Slovakia is splitting (or isn't it in Europe?). Western 
Europe: Katalonia, more and more autonomy, just a mention of Spain is taken 
with a laugh there (watch the Olympic Games); Aland Islands, more autonomy; 
Faroe Islands, more autonomy, arguments with Denmark about its limits vis-a-
vis foreign policy; Greenland, quit the EC even if Denmark remained a 
member; Belgium, turning into a quasi-federal state just to keep it in one 
piece.

CIS carrying the functions of the orig. US fed. gov't?! Oh boy. In practise 
CIS doesn't carry out any function whatsoever, it exists in paper only (and 
for the Olympic Games).

>I think you failed to understand what is going on. The Warsaw pact
>countries have not ceased to be communist, they have simply become
>capitalist. They are finding ways of sitting on both sides of the fence.
>in the same way they are perfectly capable of wanting independence and
>confederation at the same time.

And how is this possible, please, to be communist and capitalist at the same 
time? Discuss.

Wanting independence and integration at the same time is quite possible, it 
happens all the time in the whole Europe, and I haven't argued anything to 
the contrary. In fact Ulick wrote that it's stupid to split states when at 
the same time integration deepens, and I argued against that.

>Phill Hallam-Baker

On the whole, I must say that it seems that it's *you* who has failed to 
understand what's going on in ex-communist countries. But don't worry, that 
can be cured by reading more and guessing less.

Timo Ahonen               *  To do is to be              - Socrates  *
University of Helsinki    *  To be is to do              - Sartre    *
Finland                   *  Do be do be do              - Sinatra   *
Timo.Ahonen@Helsinki.FI   *  Be do do be do do be do do  - Silencers *