HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aiden@NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski)
Subject: Re: mysticism
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:51:49 GMT

>
>>Hmmmph.  A lot of it is perfectly good "old age stuff".  Meditation,
>>guided imagery, visualization, and so on are neutral techniques...
>>...In a lot of cases, so-called "new age" practices derive directly
>>from Christian and Jewish mysticism.
>
>
>I've really got no problem with much of it.  Meditation, prayer, fasting,
>etc. can really enhance one's spiritual life.  They've gone too far though
>when eastern-religion based techniques such as TM, yoga, and chanting
>mantras (see the original posting) are brought into Church & CCD classes.

Chanting mantras
Hmm
That's always how the Rosary seemed to me.
and I've been brought up Catholic.

Steve Otlowski
aiden@ncoast.org

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert)
Subject: Re:      Joke
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 05:02:14 GMT


   Told to me by an Anglo-Catholic.  If you're apt to take offense, hit
the n key... 


   Did you hear about the atheist who lost his faith?
   He became an Episcopalian.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:48:05 EDT
From: <CXC19$@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Obedience; Parish Hopping
Distribution: na
 <edjans01.717719312@starbase.spd.louisville.edu>

In article <edjans01.717719312@starbase.spd.louisville.edu>,
  edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing) says:
>
>I really don't know of any Canon teachings/rulings regarding
>"parish hopping."

I am reluctant to make any statements concerning Canon Law since
my book of Canon Law is in another state, but maybe someone else
can try to look this up.  I have a strong impression that Canon Law
specifically prohibits "parish hopping".  Of course, in practice
I've never seen any such rule enforced, or even recognised.  I think
the idea behind the rule is along the lines that Christianity is
about loving your neighbors (i.e., the arbitrary people who you
come in contact with), not just those who you happen to get along
with.  My memory is very faulty, though.


Carl Cotner
cxc19@psuvm.psu.edu
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:49:00 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: RCIA readings
              <humu!AMERICAN.EDU!PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> "RCIA readings" (Sep
              30,  8:56am)

Thank you, Nancy.  I thought that might be the case.  It just seemed
that the particular interpretation that was submitted of that gospel
reading was a little different that we had heard...... But each person
comes from their own life experience.

Shalom,                         Len Howard
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From: ern+@pitt.edu (Ernest J Obusek)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: pre Vat II?
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:24:34 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <01GP8SJ26GJS8WW0MR@umassd.edu> EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU (Liz Moreau) writes:
Some things deleted..

>Yes, I honestly believe I could walk away from the church.  IMHO, the
>body of believers are the church.
>

Some more things deleted...

>Over the years I have been to other churches with friends (as they
>have come with me to mine).  They are very attractive.  They have a
>warmth that the Catholic Church (in my area) lacks.  They have a
>terrific teaching ministry.  I have learned more at other churches
>then I have at mine in 36 years.

I could never go to another church no matter how great the teaching ministry.
What about Eucharist?  What about the sacrifice of the Mass?  These are the
things I go to Church for.  I'd much rather go to a Catholic church
without "warmth" and without a great teaching ministry than any non-Catholic
church because, even if I only ever know the most basic truths of my Faith, 
JESUS IS THERE, TRULY PRESENT IN BODY, GIVING HIM SELF UP FOR MY SINS!  Nothing 
is better than this and nothing is more important, no matter how appealing.

Ernest

ern@unix.cis.pitt.edu

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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:48:34 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean
              (Oct  3,  7:08pm)

Thank you, Eric, for this post.  It represents a lot of work on your
part, and I, for one, appreciate knowing exactly the reasoning behind
the refusal of the Church of Rome to ordain women.  Since I am an
Episcopalian, I do not have to agree with it, but can now appreciate
where you are coming from.
Shalom,                                     Len Howard
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:45:50 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      How to complain

On Sep 25,  9:32pm, "(Andrew Fusco)" wrote:
} This may not be completely relevant to the discussion, but, as I wrote to
} the original poster, it is sometimes helpful to write a letter of complaint
} to the diocese of a parish in which you find the instruction lacking or
} even gone astray. At a particular parish I attended which was very liberal,
} or "experimental," as they would call it, the letters from many parishoners to
} the diocese were enough to have the diocese reprimand
} the parish. It certainly is not pleasant, but the warnings the diocese
} may give to a parish certainly serve to keep them in line.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Andrew Fusco)"

	I would suggest that in the interest of charity you first
talk to the pastor and tell him your concerns.  Give him a chance.
If that doesn't work, then you should indeed go to the bishop.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 10:55:15 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Deacons

On Sep 30, 11:20am, Brent Winiger wrote:
} Subject: Deacons
} I've been wondering about this for a while, but haven't gotten around to
} investigating it.  Can someone post a rough outline of what is involved in
} becoming a Deacon?  I'm curious as to education requirements, time
} commitment, etc.  It might be a role many of us might be able to step into
} in the future if the shortage of Priests continues to worsen.
}-- End of excerpt from Brent Winiger

	I'd be interested in this too.

	All I know is that a permanent deacon can be single or married
when ordained.  If single when ordained, he must remain so.  If married,
he must have his wife's permission.  I believe deacons must be 35 or
older (men of 'mature years'). And that's about all I know.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Truthful:  Dumb and illiterate.
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From: fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco)
Subject: Re: Anyone else wish it was pre VII?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 21:32:40 GMT


>>      I would welcome all comments, either by email or post, and Yes, i do
>> realize that I am just a fuddy duddy young conservative :) :)

"(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU> writes:
>Karl,

>Thanks for you posting.  You asked about priests exercisng their teaching
> authority
>from the pulpit.  We had (yes, had, he moved to another parish) a yound
> energetic
>priest that would do that.  He gave a sermon on abortion, and on our role
>as Catholics to proclaim the truth regarding abortion as murder.
>His sermon was greeted with a very hearty round of applause !

>Other sermons were the teachings on the obligation of Catholics to go to Mass
>on Sundays and the other Holy Days of Obligation, the need for us to
>celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation, etc.

>Although he has moved on, his energy and dedication were infectious, as I
> perceive
>our head pastor to take more of a authoritative teaching role at the puplit
>that he had been (or perhaps I have changed and now hear what he is teaching).

>Priests like that (Rev. Paul Sirba) are a great inspiration to the entire
>congregation.

>About labelling yourself as a  fuddy duddy young conservative, while I'm
>no spring chicken (I'm 32) I would characterize myself as conservative.
>I say this because I have taken encouragement from your posting, and I hope tha
>you can be encouraged in knowing that there are many who share your
>beliefs and nature.

This may not be completely relevant to the discussion, but, as I wrote to
the original poster, it is sometimes helpful to write a letter of complaint
to the diocese of a parish in which you find the instruction lacking or
even gone astray. At a particular parish I attended which was very liberal,
or "experimental," as they would call it, the letters from many parishoners to
the diocese were enough to have the diocese reprimand
the parish. It certainly is not pleasant, but the warnings the diocese
may give to a parish certainly serve to keep them in line. 

-ACF
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:13:02 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II ?
              Mailing List)" dated "Tue, 29 Sep 92 16:20:41 -0400"

Excerpts from catholic: 29-Sep-92 Re: pre Vat II ? Free Catholic Mailing
@? (2251)

> In article <1992Sep28.181651.28451@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU
> (Andrew Fusco) writes:
> |> {...} so many Catholics who were taught to revere Holy Tradition.
> 						     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> What is this? I am happy to say that in my RC upbringing, I was taught
> about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, Holy Mary, mother of God, but
> never Holy Tradition!

I'm afraid you were not catechized very well, then.

The Catholic Church teaches that both Scripture and Tradition are
authoritative sources of divine revelation.  Unlike the evangelical
Protestants, who look to the Bible alone for divine revelation, we look
to not only the Bible, but the Tradition which we have received from the
Apostles.  For as you can see by the Protestant church, we can disagree
on exactly what Scripture says, even on major doctrines.  Yet through
our reliance on Sacred Tradition, we have an authoritative way of
discerning correct interpretation of Scripture.  Unlike liberal
Protestants, we believe that Scripture is inerrant and inspired, and
that Truth is an absolute which has been revealed to the church.  We
also believe that all divine truth which God has desired to reveal to
human beings has been revealed to the Catholic Church, and that the
Catholic Church possesses -- exclusively -- the fullness of divine
revelation.  That is not to say that there is not truth in other faiths,
but all faiths are true only insofar as their truth agrees with the
Truth we have received.  This may come as a shock to you, but this has
always been the teaching of the church, and if you read Vatican II (Dei
Verbum and Lumen Gentium, for example), this is what you will find.

The Catholic Church teaches that when all the bishops meet in council
and agree that a particular article of faith is divinely revealed, that
article of faith must be held without question by all the Catholic
faithful.  The Pope can also define divinely revealed articles of faith
or morals, in agreement with Apostolic Tradition, that must be held by
all Catholic faithful; this is called papal infallibility.

So indeed there is Holy Tradition, which is authoritative and
infallible, as discerned through the college of bishops and also the
Pope speaking on behalf of the bishops.

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 11:30:13 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject: RE: Omnipresent? (was Re: pre Vat II?)

Gordon Zaft (zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org) writes:

>	I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 'omni-present in all
>creation'... that sounds like it's dangerously close to pantheism to me.

What I mean by this is that I believe that *nothing* can separate me from the
love of God.  God is truly present no matter where I go.  Since Jesus is truly
God, Jesus is truly present no matter where I go.  Thus, whether I am at a
celebration of the Eucharist or at home "alone", He is truly present.  He is
present within me.  "Omni-present in creation" does not mean I think creation
*is* God (pantheism), but that God permeates creation.  Throughout all creation
He is present.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Mary
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:29:14 GMT

The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK> writes:

>However I need some apologetics advice (again) to diffuse a difficult
>situation.  Two of my friends (one catholic and one ex catholic) are currently
>arguing about the justification for giving Mary the title Mother of God.
>The ex-catholic seems to consider that this would mean that Mary pre dated God
>which is obviously not true.  Can you help us explain this to him.  Please
>remember he hasn't been a catholic since he was a child and now attends a
>baptist church.

	Well my opinion is that he knows exactly what you are talking about
and more than likely he's just trying to be a pest, so don't worry to much
about it.  You have to remember that many (most?) Christians do not view
Mary in the same sense that Catholics do.  Frankly, the Catholic focus on
Mary is quite upsetting to many non-Catholic Christians.
	The phrase _Mother of God_ is seen to elevate Mary way to high, 
higher than she deserves.  Now if you simply said, Mother of Jesus or Christ
I don't think you will get any complaints.  Mary is seen as a holy, blessed
person, but not particularily more blessed than most others, and should not
be treated (as in prayed to) as special.
	I take it that your friend is arguing as such?  Well, if it could be
justified easily I don't think there would be so many differences in
Christianity today.  So tell him what you believe as a Catholic and listen
to what he says as a Babtist and leave it at that, accept the fact that there
are different opinions on the matter.
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:58:00 EDT
From:         TMN1@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Greeley
              30 Sep 1992 03:16:31 GMT

I am not able to include previuos posts, so I'll just do the best I can.
Someone had asked what Father Greeley thinks about abortion.  And someone
else had replied that what he thinks doesn't matter.  That may be so but
I'll tell you what he thinks anyway.

According to a book that he wrote a few years back, the name of which I can't
quite remember, but was something along the lines of _The_Catholic_Church_in_
America_, he said that abortion was an evil, but that some circumstances it
isn't the greatest evil.  The implication of his statement being that in
certain situations abortion would be a "better" choice.

That's what I know about Father Greeley's thinking on abortion.

Peace,
Todd M Nelson
tmn@ra.chem.psu.edu  -or-
tmn1@psuvm.psu.edu   -or-
tmn1@psuvm.bitnet
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 10:20:43 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Deacons
              Deacons" (Oct  3,  9:38am)

Ed, the Deacon in the Episcopal Church has duties much as described by
Mike.  During the Eucharist, the deacon reads the Gospel and may lead
the Prayers of the People (or a layreader may lead them).  Deacons
also serve at the Lord's Table, preparing and placing on it the
offerings of bread and wine, and assisting in the ministration of the
Sacrament to the people.  The Deacon dismisses the congregation at the
end of the Mass.
   The Deacon may baptize, marry (if has civil authority also),
conduct funerals, lead the Daily Offices of Prayer, and annoint the
sick.  The Deacon is not able to consecrate the elements, absolve sin,
or bless the people in the name of God.
   The Deacon helps with other liturgical duties, may teach classes,
may preach at the discretion of the priest, and most have an active
hospital ministry to the sick.
   It sounds like the duties in both churches are very similar.  We
vow obetience to our Bishop, and technically work directly under his
authority, but from a practical point of view, we work closely with
the Rector.  We would stay in the parish from whence we are called
unless there are problems there (some Episcopal Priests are not happy
with the Diaconate program.)
   On the call, I would have no problems discussing how the call might
come to individuals, since this is a central part of our application
letters, and I have told the story to many people.  I think it would
help to ask specific questions....  Good topic for a thread.

Shalom,                          Len Howard
                                 tas@pegasus.com
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From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com ()
Subject: sex
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 13:19:49 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Hi. I was just wondering what readers thoght about Catholics who participate
in mass and other activities of the church while acting outside of strict	church "rules" on such things as contraception and/or pre-marital sex?

At an engaged encounter, it seemed that the priest indicated the church
was adamantly against pre-marital sex, yet "understood" if a couple decided
to use contraceptives other than natural family planning. 

Have you experienced this "soft rule/hard rule" attitude in the RC church?

Donna 
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 00:09:04 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              11:10am)

On Sep 25, 11:10am, Brent Winiger wrote:
} Subject: mysticism
} >>a couple of Perretti (sp?) novels, "This Present Darkness", and
} >>"Piercing the Darkness"
}
} >Pretty liberal Protestant theology, there...
}
} Perhaps you could enlighten us, Amanda, as to your objection to these
} books, or how the main focus is contrary to Catholicism.
}-- End of excerpt from Brent Winiger

	I'll comment, though I'm obviously not Amanda :-)....

	I enjoyed the books thoroughly and I appreciated in particular
the fact that they give angels the proper role (instead of the oft-
portrayed fat babies with wings).

	On the other hand, I really was annoyed at the total disregard
for, for example, the contemplatives of the Church who spend their lives
praying on her behalf.  The author is obviously totally oblivious of
such matters...

	Nevertheless, very good reading...

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
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                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
If you think before you speak the other guy gets his joke in first.
From: v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL S. PRESTON, ESQ.)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: sinead o'connor
Date: 5 Oct 92 02:32:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

last night i was watching 'saturday night live' on nbc. the musical
guest, sinead o'connor, was performing what seemed to be a relatvely
decent song about breaking down all the barriers that divide people
today. at the end of the song, she held up a picture of the pope and
said, "Let's fight the real enemy," and tore the picture to shreds.
my friends and myself were outraged at this display of blasphemy,
and i am wondering if anyone else was witness to this, and what 
your reactions are. 

mike
From: dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu (Idbil Fubar)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:18:22 GMT
Organization: UB

zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG ((Gordon C. Zaft)) writes:

>On Sep 25, 10:16am, URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM wrote:
>} Subject: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
>} Gordon = >
>} Me = }
>} Bryan = } >
>} } Subject: Let's pick on altar servers now
>} }
>} } Gee, women as equals, novel idea:-) So, Bryan, did God become human just
>} } to save men? What is the significance of the race, sex, eye color, etc.,
>} } that God chose when he became human? Or is it that you don't consider
>} } females as human? ;-)
>} } The fact that my son and daughters can all be altar servers gives me
>} } some hope for the future of the Church.
>}
>} >	Females are not to be altar servers because they can't be
>} >priests.  This abuse has been condemned by the Vatican.
>}
>} Gordon, do you really believe this or are you just following orders?
>} Must you intend to become a priest to be an altar server?
>} Is being an altar server a prerequisite to being a priest?

I was an alter server for some time myself and I have NO intention of
becoming a priest.

>}
>} What exactly is it that you feel a woman can't do in fufilling the role
>} of a priest? How important were Christ's physical characteristics to us?

What can't they do...Hmmm...Good question.  NOTHING!  
>}
>} Perhaps if any of the duties of a priest were performed in the nude or
>} if any of the organs of the reproductive systems played a role in a
>} priests duties, I may see a point to this otherwise blantant sexist
>} 'policy' of the Church. 1/2:-)
>}-- End of excerpt from URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM

>	Well, I thought we had argued this pretty thoroughly before
>and I'm really too tired of it to start all over....

>	The Church says women can't be priests or altar servers. Period.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
Woah!  Dogma lover eh?  Why were at it why don't we do that female 
curcumcission (whatever the spelling) where they hack off the clitoris and
sew the labia shut (putting a tube in to allow urination).  

Welcome to the almost 21st century dudes!!!

The church's dogma on only males being in the priesthood or on the altar 
at all in some cases is SEXIST.  Mary bled for the church to exist yet
the church keeps the members of her sex well under their foot.

Idbil Fubar

ps (The middle ages aren't that far behind us)
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