From: scraig@elipse.mentorg.com (Stuart Craig)
Subject: Re: Another question....
Originator: scraig@elipse
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:11:58 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <rjg.722199525@crusher>, rjg@doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith)
 writes:
>In <1992Nov19.021404.22955@en.ecn.purdue.edu> lush@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory
 B Lush) writes:
>>>In article <BxKMqB.5y3@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>
 cmparris@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (Chris Michael Parrish) writes:
>>>>Well, I have anther question already.... If a thrower makes a toss
>>>>that results in his hand or arm contacting the stationary limb or body
>>>>of a marker is it a foul? Also to carry it one step further, what if
>>>>the thrower attempts to reach around the marker(who is not moving his
>>>>blocking arm towards the thrower, but instead downward) and the marker
>>>>hits the hand/arm of the thrower? Is it still a foul even though the
>>>>thrower moved into the marker "space"?
>>>
>
>[Gregory suggests Basketball type rule]
>>I really think that is simple.
>>The problem is that markers, like people taking the charge in basketball,
>>always think they are stationary.
>
>The marker is not supposed to remain stationary. The marker is allowed to
>move around to cover the offense as the offense pivots. Movement by the marker
>should maintain the required distance. I find this is best done by limiting
>my movements to a plane. Even then there are times when a good fake and
>quick return pivot mean I cannot move back to where I started as the thrower
>as pivoted into place.

This all sounds good so far.

>By taking up a marking position and extending my arms I claim the space 
>above and below my arms as mine. If contact occurs in this area the
>thrower is at fault.

Say what?  Where did you come up with this "claim the space" idea?
I've never seen anything in the rules that even remotely suggests that
this is true for the marker.

>Why:
>	If the thrower moves any part of their body through the space
>	established by the marker (even on a follow through) it is
>	hazardous play and the marker can call a foul. The marker should
>	be able to move into the established space without a collision.
>	The thrower has their own space and a disc width.

How is this hazardous play?  In most cases the "collision" caused by
an attempted throw through this area will be much softer than a
successful handblock would be.  Again I must point out that I don't
see any basis for your claim on this space.  As long as the thrower
isn't leaning against you or pushing your torso out of the way he has
just as much right to this space as you do.  Especially if he gets
there first!  If he pivots around and reaches under your arm to throw
and you then hack him on the arm this is most definitely a foul on
you.

>	By establishing a legal marking position the marker is claiming
>	some of the space around the thrower. Once established the
>	marker is entitled to this space and should be able to       
>        move their arms up and down and their body laterally 
>        without expecting a collision.
>
>The marker should not be required to dodge the follow through arm of the
>thrower. The thrower is required, by the hazardous play rule, not to move
>into space occupied by the marker.

Why would the marker be required to dodge the follow through?  Contact
after the disc is released is not a foul as far as I know.

>On rereading that I seem to have repeated myself a lot. I hope it is still
>understandable.

What you are saying here goes directly against accepted practices in
Ultimate.  The ability to "break the mark" by throwing under or over
the markers arm is important in competitive play.  If the marker is
concerned about preventing such a throw then he or she should probably
be standing three or more feet back from the thrower so that it's not
possible to reach under the arm.

Later,
Stu

-- 
Stuart Craig              | HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE:  This product
Mentor Graphics Corp.     | contains minute electrically charged particles
stuart_craig@mentorg.com  | moving at velocities in excess of five hundred
#include <std_disclaimer> | million miles per hour.