Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou
Subject: Re: Libertarians & Abortion (was: Please let Marrou debate!)
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 13 Oct 92 00:37:52 EST
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sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley) writes:
> jsteiner@anwsun.phya.uto
> ledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
> 
> [stuff deleted]

[more stuff deleted]

> >on an issue like abortion, where people are divided nearly 50-50,
> >calm and reasoned discussion is much more conducive to solutions
> >than slinging epithets around.
> 
> Ah!  This is the source of the problem.  I should have realized 
> that my use of 'militant' would imply bombs and guns and Dobie-o-
> matics, or at least the verbal equivalent thereof.  Perhaps I 
> should have picked a better word.  I meant that I'm 
> uncompromisingly serious about the issue.  I don't run around 
> screaming and waving coat-hangers, if that's what you were thinking.

thanks for clarifying. don't forget that there -are- people who
do the screaming and waving coat-hangers/freeze-dried fetuses around.

> [stuff deleted]
> 
> >> ATTENTION, EVERYONE!  *This* is why you must have a consistent,
> >> rational philosophy before you take up politics!  Every
> >> inconsistency is a crack in the foundation of our political
> >> movement and can lead to failure.
> >
> >no, what leads to failure is making a political movement as
> >exclusive as possible. we're working in a democratic-republic,
> >where things are decided by a majority, and you're not going
> >to get tha majority if you exclude half of the population out
> >of hand.
> 
> No, selling out to please as many people as possible is what's 
> gotten this country where it is now.  Take this to its extreme and 
> you get George "Please Be My Friend!" Bush.  I think our positions 
> on drugs, guns, and welfare probably exclude half the population 
> anyhow.  

fortunately, one issue candidates are becoming more and more rare.
those that exist are the ones we should be scared of... 

the point remains that -any- political party is a compromise. if we 
all thought alike we wouldn't need politics. as a person who scores 
anywhere from 8/8 to 10/10 (depending on mood) on "The World's 
Shortest Political Test" (is there a shorter name for this thing?) 
i'm willing to wager that in a libertarian society the number of 
people making the choice for Life will increase.

you may not want my vote, but Marrou's got it anyway. :^)

> A woman's ownership over her body and her right to remove any 
> unwelcome visitors is just as important as a newspaper's right to 
> print whatever it chooses, since all these rights are 
> manifestations of property rights. Compromise on one and you 
> compromise on them all.

*sigh* about a month or two ago i and several other people went
'round & 'round on this issue. i'm pleased that the debate was
very well reasoned, but i'd hate to get into it again. but i
will.

to summarize:
o   the order of rights goes: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
	(or property, depending which version you use.) violating one
	violates all following.

o   by destroying the life of a fetus you are also taking away its
	rights to liberty, pursuit of happiness and property.

o   by outlawing abortion you are violating the woman's (temporary)
	right to property. place the two on the scales and see which
	weighs more. and don't forget to consider the following facts:

	o   in 99% of abortion cases the choice could have been made 
		-prior- to the fact. (i -am- pro-choice that way.)
	o   likewise, in 100% of cases the fetus is not responsible
		for its condition and (by any standard of justice) should
		not be 'terminated' just because it is an unfortunate result
		of a mother's -and- father's (let's be fair here) actions.
    o   this corresponds perfectly to the libertarian philosophy
		of "as long as you do not use force or fraud, do what you
		will. but be responsible for **your** actions." (a paraphrase
		of Marrou.)

now, whether you wish to extend those rights to a fetus in the first
place is another issue altogether. 

before anyone flames this, be aware that for every Operation Rescue
person blocking a clinic there are many more who are providing
housing, clothing, childcare, money and emotional support to many
women who would otherwise abort. there are many more who would love
to adopt, but find the red tape and associated costs too much to
handle. -that- behavior is the libertarian ideal, and it is from
that perspective that i write.

if your version of "militant" applies, i am militant pro-life.
the unborn should simply not be slaughtered to the gods of
convenience and a quick fix for serious consequences. 

would that life were so simple. then i could just kill the calc prof 
who will undoubtedly be giving me a rather inconvenient test tomorrow.
(many smilies for the humour impaired.)

jason

--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,` Democrat:    Give us your money. _We'll_ solve your problems. `,`
`,` Republican:  Give us your money. We'll ignore your problems.  `,`
`,` Libertarian: Keep your money. Solve your own problems.        `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.libertarian