HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rwt@stiatl.salestech.com (Roger Terrell)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Organization: Sales Technologies, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 16:51:21 GMT

paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:

>>	3) Patricia McKillip's "RiddleMaster" trilogy.

>[...] I like this series better than LotR.
>I still weep while reading it.  And I first read it after I became jaded
>with fantasy books.

At last!  I've found someone(s) else who has read this series!  I *loved*
this trilogy, and the few people I've met who've read it didn't like it. :-(

I'm not sure it's quite the level of Tolkien, but it is very, very good, and
it has different themes anyway.

Two series that I think are Tolkienesque are:

1) The Fionavar Tapestry, by Guy Gavriel Kay.  The books are:
   a) The Summer Tree
   b) The Wandering Fire
   c) The Longest Road (or is it "The Darkest road"?)

2) The Robert Jordan series.  I can't remember what the series is called.
  I think the first book is "The eye of the world" or something like that.
  Good Stuff!

--Roger

-- 
Roger Terrell
UUCP: ...!uupsi!stiatl!rwt
Internet: rwt@stiatl.salestech.com
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Date: 17 Dec 1992 12:57:15 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <BzAA0F.60r@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>Um, doesn't all this aging stuff have to do with Aragorn's being one-fourth
>elf?  Not sure about the details...
>

He's a lot less than one-fourth elf, though he does have a few drops of
elven blood in him.  It had been many thousands of years since there
were any elves in his family tree.

That being said, however, I think that the longevity of the descendents of
Elros tar-Minyatur (first kind of Numenor, Elrond's brother who chose to
be human, and Aragorns many-times-great-grandfather) probably came in part
from their elvish blood.
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 17 Dec 1992 12:56:52 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <lewchuk.724569020@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>Question:  Gandalf said "The evil fire will avail you not", and afterwards
>at Fangorn (with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas) he said "I fell, for a long
>time, we fought, and I was burned".  I take it Gandalf was bluffing about
>"the dark fire will avail you not", since the balrog somehow managed to
>burn him even though he had all this enchantment and wizardly knowledge
>of fire (and the Third Ring)?  Otherwise it doesn't make sense.  He
>shouldn't have been burned.

I don't really agree.  Although Gandalf was burned, he was not destroyed.
Nor did it avail the Balrog, whom Gandalf continued to battle and eventually
defeated.  There was an inner power to Gandalf that manifested itself at
this time.  I believe the burning was a necessary transformation, probably
not even foreseen by Gandalf, that elevated him to the next stage, wherein
he became purified as Gandalf the White, the White Rider who would guide
the West to victory.



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: Re: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Reply-To: guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy McConnell)
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:41:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.160352.24540@ra.msstate.edu>, paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
|> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
|> >>>I thought the game Legolas and Gimli played at the battle of Helms Deep
|> >>>was not from thirst for revenge.  It seemed to be more of a sporting
|> >>>contest.
|> >
|> >Callous, yes, but that happens in war. How is that different from
|> >fighter pilots counting kills? 
|> >
|> This question was posted to the List sometime ago and I repeat it here
|> to see what you might think on the subject.
|> 
|> "Are you justified in killing orcs simply because they are orcs?"

    Or, as in the case of the contest and its surrounding circumstances, are
you justified in killing Orcs because of unprovoked attack on your homeland (or
your allies')?  Methinks that it becomes a little clearer viewed in context.
Legolas and Gimli were not rampaging across the Orcs' homeland wantonly killing
them for no reason.  They were defending against that sort of behavior on the
part of these selfsame Orcs.  To the above question viewed alone with no more
information, I'd answer no.  In the case being discussed here, I'd say yes.  It
was a case of kill or be killed.

--
==============================================================================
 Guy McConnell,  Intergraph Corp.   | Facts are  |"All that is gold does not
 Huntsville, Alabama  MS CR1105     |   facts.   | glitter, not all those who
 Computer and Storage Technology    |     My     | wander are lost, the old
 Evaluation - Tape Products         |  opinions  | that is strong does not
 guy@mspe5.b11.ingr.com             |  are just  | wither, and deep roots are
 uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy           |  exactly   | not reached by the frost."
 (205)730-6289   FAX (205)730-6011  |    that.   |                   J.R.R.T.
==============================================================================
From: leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:47:46 GMT
Reply-To: leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <1992Dec12.210840.2928@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>	A minor, but signficant point of info:  Treebeard describes this 
>mingling as "a black evil"--  not "a great evil."  This is significant,
>IMHO, because the use of the word "black" in conjuction with a criticism of 
>racial mixing potentially adds another dimension of interpretation to this 
>statement.
>
IMO the "black evil" lies in the fact that orcs are an irredeemably evil
perversion of life by Morgoth, whereas men are essentially born as untainted
creations of Illuvatar.  A cross breeding would thus be a kind of blashpemy
as well as a deed that condems the offspring to a life of slavery and evil
deeds.  The term "black evil" is simply a deep emphasis of Treebeard's
contempt for polluting Illuvatar's creations with Morgoth's perversions of 
life.  With respect, I see an interpretation that draws parallels between this
cross-breeding and human inter-racial unions as far fetched at most.

Mig.
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Half-elves becoming elves
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:58:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.072444.20575@news.acns.nwu.edu> j-germuska@nwu.edu (Joe Germuska) writes:
>In <q7V=lj@engin.umich.edu> mschiffer@engin.umich.edu (Michael S. Schiffer, LHN) writes:
>
>>Actually, what _I_ want to know is why the choice of being among the
>> elf-kindred seems to be revocable, while the choice of humanity is not.
>
>Don't forget Tolkien's persistent "classism": The elves were the firstborn,
>and in all ways the first beloved of Eru and the Valar (except for some
>exceptions).  For an elf to give up eternal life and accept death and the
>Halls of Mandos was a sacrifice, and one no doubt strange to some crotchety
>old elves muttering about miscegenation -- but humans were not "granted the
>gifts" that the elves were, and not entitled to simply choose certain
>destinies.  

What do you mean, the Men were not granted the same 'gifts' that Elves
were? What about the gift of death?  Because Men did not take part in the sing-
ing which created Arda, their fate was not boud up in it.  They were free
to choose their own destiny. Eru made them to never be satisfied with the 
world
they were in - they could add their own song to the Music.
It seems that the Elves were acting out a previously determined song.
The Men were not tied to the world the way Elves were.
>
>Forgive the lack of references, but it's late.
>
>Peace,
>	Joe

Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:34:10 GMT

Has anyone ever read that series of Tanith Lee about the Demon-lords?
I only know the Dutch title, but it might be called 'Rulers of the Darkness' or
something in English. 
Actually, I thought that it was better than Tolkien. It's not heroic, but
very mean and dirty. Quite epic at times too.

Hein Ragas, heinr@sci.kun.nl

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Re: Different dates given...
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:52:12 GMT

In article <92352.155156NICKERSN@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, Steven A. Nickerson
<NICKERSN@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> wrote:
> 
> A friend of mine recently gave me a listing of important dates in
> Tolkien's works (i.e. 04/17 An unexpected party).  This listing
> can be used to generate reminders on the given days. In Appendix
> B of my Return of the King volume I have a number of dates given as
> well (probably where the listing came from originally).  My question
> is...  every date in the listing is off by 8 days from the dates in
> my bokk.   Does anyone have any idea why...?   My book is a 1983
> printing from Houghton-Mifflin and my friend did not know where his
> listing came from (somewhere "over the network").  I'm just curious
> if there are a lot of "inconsistencies" / changes like this from
> version to version, or if I just happen to have encountered the only
> one big change to have occurred...
> Thanks!
> 
> SteveN (S.A. Nickerson)      ------------------------------------
>  COS Student - UMaine        Trying to establish voice contact---
>                              please yell into the keyboard.
>                              ------------------------------------
>  NICKERSN@Maine.maine.edu

The dates are the same in all editions of _LotR_. The variance is
an adjustment made because the calendar system of Middle-earth is
not the same as our own (just as we need to adjust dates between
the Julian and the Gregorian systems). I'm not sure offhand where
the 8 day adjustment comes from, but I think it may be suggested
in the Appendices.

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:42:58 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec16.034344.19852@iitmax.iit.edu> thssapk@iitmax.iit.edu (([<{\_/}>])) writes:
>IMO, the toughest task of a LOTR movie would be to get a director
>who will 'stay true to the spirit of the books' and not turn it into
>his own personal statement, while yet being telnted enough to do 
>justice to the books.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I don't think
>Coppola could do it (not after DRACULA), nor Kubrick (see THE SHINING);
>perhaps Bertolucci or Scott?
>

Well, Ridley Scott did an excellent job of adapting the themes of the
novel _Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep?_ into the movie "Blade
Runner", but he did so by ignoring most of the plot of the book.  If
you want something true to the spirit, he'd work.  But if you want the
plot to resemble LOTR, find someone else.

Interestingly, a counter-example would be David Lynch and "Dune", which
followed the plot of the book almost exhaustively but did not, IMHO,
capture the feel of the book at all.

How about Terry Gilliam, who is one of my favorite directors and also
has an in with dwarf actors (he has used them in most of his movies
in one way or another)?  Perhaps a bit too comedy oriented and irreverent,
but he has done a great job with fantasy themes and captured a true
mystical feeling in "The Fisher King."


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges)
Subject: Re: "Passing away" into the West (was Re: Rivendell)
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:04:24 GMT

laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence) writes:

>Hmm.  I'm afraid that I agree with Jim.  The "Death" in voyaging West,
>though, is a rather Christianized view of death, and (at least for the
>Eldar) is also related to the equation of death and submission to God
>which is a common theme in the New Testament.  In coming back to Middle
...

Interesting, these exegetic disputes :-). Let's not look at the New/Old
Testament for a while, though, but rather at T. 
If elves travel west, i.e. to live in Valinor, they don't die (physically).
On the contrary, they are as alife as in middle-earth (and could actually
return). Moreover, they can be slain in Valinor all the same (fight of
feanor's sons for the quendi's boats). They of course in a certain way
submiss themselves to the Valar by doing so, as it is an admission of 
defeat to return after a disgraceful parting. Nevertheless, this is dif-
ferrent from waiting in the halls of Mandos ...

Henrik
From: rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:30:00 GMT
   OORHIS.92Dec2232140@granite.WPI.EDU> <Byox1r.4t3@apollo.hp.com> <RENE.92Dec11002323@fibonacci.iesd.auc.dk>

No no, the Nazgul were the same as the Ringwraiths.  Tolkien never
explicitly identifies the winged creatures the Nazgul rode on, save to say
that they had been either bred or corrupted from another creature by
Sauron.  The Nazgul could ride horses (in this form, they were called the
Black Riders), ride these winged creatures, or move simply as wraiths of
men.  The first two modes of transportation were much faster and provided
certain advantages.  The Ringwraiths had essentially very poor eyesight in
daylight; riding on horses, they somehow were able to see farther, perhaps
by "borrowing" the senses of their steeds.  And riding on winged steeds
helped them spread their fear-aura much farther and faster--consider that
the majority of the magic wielded during the siege of Minas Tirith and the
Battle of the Pelennor was related somehow to fear. Gandalf and Aragorn,
though able to lift their men for a time out of the black depression and
terror that the Nazgul spread, yet could not be everywhere at once, and
thus was the spirit of the defenders gradually worn down.
	One thing I always wondered about: if the Ringwraiths before
ensnarement and death were mighty lords, rulers of men, why did they
suddenly turn craven and act more like herd animals than powerful servants
of Sauron?  They wouldn't do *anything* alone, except for the Witch-king,
and were driven off Weathertop by a lone Ranger (albeit the chief) and a
few half-sized farmfolk.  I mean, they *couldn't* have been such wimps in
life, or they wouldn't have received a Ring; did they actually *lose* a
measure of power in becoming Ringwraiths?

	Richard Wang
rwang@husc.harvard.edu
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:29 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

I don't think the Moria Balrog was "unsure" of himself or "afraid" when
he faced Gandalf.  When Gandalf referred to "the Secret Fire" I understood
it to mean both that he served Eru and that he himself had special power
with fire (no doubt at least partially due to Narya), the latter 
especially because it seemed to give the Balrog pause (not "fear"!) and
make him change "weapons"; I can't quote exactly but I think his fire
diminished and the darkness about him grew instead.  I got the impression
that the Balrog had a lot of power at his command and did not have to
depend on his fire.  Like all the Evil ones it seems his preferred weapon
was fear: if this puny old man in front of him did not fear fire, then
let him face the darkness.....

I also never received the impression that the Balrog would have served
or allied himself with Sauron even if he could.  The Balrogs were always
the servants of Morgoth, and Sauron is never said to have commanded any.
Given the inherent self-centeredness of Evil, I don't think any Balrog
would have humbled themselves to Sauron's servitude willingly.  I doubt
Sauron would have been willing to ally with a Balrog nor could he have
been forced to:  the Balrog seems to have been roughly equal in power to
Gandalf the Grey, and even Gandalf the White did not consider himself
a match for Sauron.  Quite possibly the Balrog stayed in Moria because
there he was safe from Sauron's thralldom...
Compare: Shelob operated independently of Sauron, even as her ancestor
Ungoliant had defied Morgoth.

Oh dear, sexism alert:  why did I refer to the Balrog as "he"?  How is
"it" referred to in LotR?

Wayne.
**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...
From: Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:41:52
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: world
	<539@blue.cis.pitt.edu> <Bz62pI.BJx@acsu.buffalo.edu>
	<Bz9tME.3GD@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz> <BzC39o.GIJ@acsu.buffalo.edu>
	<1h1up2INN6uh@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cardhu.cs.hut.fi
In-reply-to: winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de's message of 20 Dec 1992 14:08:34 GMT

In article <1h1up2INN6uh@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) writes:

! No, Sean Connery for Gandalf!

Yeah!

! Madonna Ciccone as Galadriel. (She could play out all her royal ambitions.
! She could perfectly be a queen-like, untouchable beauty.)

No, Daryl Hannah as Galadriel!

For other roles relatively unknow actors, please. If every
famous actor is put to this film, only chaos will emerge.

...............................................................................
Ari Huttunen				 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Organization: Landmark/Zycor   Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:09:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.105519.11418@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.093243.17296@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>>
>>jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>>
>>


[the usual lengthy Jim C. stuff deleted]


>	
>
>	But in the end, she changes her mind.  She renounces her desires to
>go out to battle, to travel, and to do all of the things that female 
>characters just don't do in LOTR.  Instead, she decides that she'd be
>quite content simply to do what all the other women in Middle-earth do--
>get married, stay at home, and take care of domestic affairs.  By having
>Eowyn, the only character who mounts a challenge to the ideology of female
>domesticity in LOTR, renounce that challenge and happily accept the status
>of a married stay-at-home, Tolkien is effectively saying that her initial 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>discontent with that status was a youthful mistake.  I stand by what I said 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


He is not saying that at all.  He is merely describing what happened.


>before:  The message imparted by Eowyn is that women may think they'd like
>to go out in the world and do the same things that men do, but ultimately,
>they'd be happier just getting married and assuming a domestic role.
>
>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
>


Just out of curiosity, what would you have him do with the female characters?
Would they all be riding forth in battle, throttling orcs with their bare
hands?  In case you never figured this out, men are generally stronger
and more suited to that kind of warfare than women are.  Since his story
revolves around a great war, it seems to make sense that most of the
characters we see in that war are men.  This is not a value judgment,
mind you.  Please lighten up.



-- 
Matthew B. Shostak              Landmark/Zycor
mbs@zycor.lgc.com               (512) 292-2357
"So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions.
 Well, we shall see." -- Cardinal Ximinez
From: dougm@cns.caltech.edu (Doug McNaught)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:40:11
Organization: The Sinister Icy Black Hand of Death Club
	<1992Dec14.145422.14328@mr.med.ge.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bradbury.cns.caltech.edu
In-reply-to: bartlone@zeke.gemedical's message of Mon, 14 Dec 92 14:54:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.145422.14328@mr.med.ge.com> bartlone@zeke.gemedical (Mike Bartolone 5-4266) writes:

   There are a couple that I have not seen mentioned, and before I forget to
   mention them again I'd better...

   How about the Camber of Culdi books...(The Chronicles of Saint Camber of Culdi?)
   there is a second (and possibly a third?) trilogy involved in that, but I can't 
   recall the titles right off the top of my head. 

  Yes! The Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. Definitely the second best
fantasy series I have read. There are three trilogies (and two books
of a fourth), a grimoire, and a short story collection. Pick 'em up.
Anybody else read the "Adept" books by her and Deborah Turner Harris?
I found them a bit cheesy but (as a half-Scot) I'm a sucker for the
setting and storyline. 

   There is also a series that I've read the first book of (The Dragon Prince
   by Melanie Rawn)..I like the characterizations...and the idea of the Faradhi..

  I read the first two and bogged down in the third. Doubtless I'll
pick 'em up again sometime. Another good and (in some ways)
Tolkienesque series is the "Deed of Paksenarrion" by Elizabeth Moon.

-Doug


--
Doug McNaught              |"When you start ruling out ideas merely because 
dougm@cns.caltech.edu      | they are sheer, gibbering lunacy, you've stopped
doug@midget.towson.edu     | doing science." -Robert Firth in sci.physics
  Nobody approves my opinions! Not even me, sometimes. Read at your own risk.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien