From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re:  How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:04:00 GMT

> 
> Kansas Jim writes:

> >Yes, axioms are increased through various means; research won't really
> >increase the Tech axiom though as it is only the scientists that
> >believe in the new technology.  But once something has made it out
> >into 'the real world' and enough people accept the new technology, the
> >axiom goes up in response.  (Until the axiom does go up, the new tech
> >is 'error-ridden', 'glitch-filled', or just malfunctions a lot.)
> 
> That seems rather silly to me; sort of an Idealist view of the axioms (i.e,
> the axioms are what you want them to be) It seems pretty stupid to call
> something an 'axiom' if it changes according t the belifs of the
> population.

Mark C. writes:
> KJ's explanation (whether it accords with the 'official' WEG line or not)
> has some holes in it: why should people belive in error-ridden
> glitch-filled technology? 
> 
> >
> >> I prefer to see things this way: the axioms measure the upper bounds of
> >> things. So CE's Social and Tech axioms have always been as high as they
> >> are; democracy ahs always been possible, but it takes time to develop.
> >> Conversely, the magic and spiritual axioms allow for moderately powerful
> >> spells and miracles, but most people do not belive in, or use, that
> >> knowledge. 
> >
> >If that were the case then you could never develop a higher social or
> >tech axiom and the society would stagnate once you reached the upper
> >limits.  
> 
> 'stagnate' is a strong word. I don't think it is a bad thing that every
> cosm has its limits imposed by the axioms. I prefer to think that Core
> Earth is the way it is (partly) because it has the axioms it does, not the
> other way around. It is the axioms which shape the worlds, not vice-versa. 
> 

Here we go again!  This is mostly recirculated, but I'll add a few new
comments at the end.....

I think the actual physical laws (and not just our perceptions of them) are
portrayed as changing in the TORG cosm/metaphysics.  

To support this, a short quote (there may be better examples) from the main
TORG book (p97).

under "Bending the Axioms"

The axioms impose boundaries on what is possible within a world, but the
boundaries are flexible.  The limits can be pushed outward in isolated cases
or for short periods of time.  This bending most often occurs in places where
the inhabitants all have a special affinity for one of the axioms. 
Unconscious use of the possibility energy within them helps to expand the
axiom boundares.

Example:  A large group of scientists work in a laboratory setting, all of 
them firmly committed to a developing technology.  The next development is
just over the axiom boundary; the firm belief in the project makes the
otheerwise-impossible project work.

... [2 pt maximum increase, 1 pt increase more common.] ....

These increases last only briefly, often just long enough to develop the
critical components on one prototype or the breakthrough concept on one
theory.  The prototype is often impossible to duplicate, or the theory
rejected for years.  But the breakthrough occured.

To take an extreme test case - of whether the laws of physics are constant
throught the TORG universe or not - I don't see any reason why one couldn't
create a 'Toon Cosm' - where the 'laws of physics' work just like they do in
cartoons.  Example:  toons never fall until they notice that
there is nothing holding them up, and they don't start to fall until
their horizontal velocity is zero.  Toons can 'run' in midair for a
limited distance.  The usual schtik.