HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic, Some Thoughts
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:28:11 GMT
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Good gentles, I recommend me to you.

Vajk has been speaking with people on a 'Arts and Sciences-Enchanted
Ground'. And one of his (or some of his aquaintances) ideas was:

> Things like looms and forges could be set up permanently.  

One question is: are your associates willing to pay year round 
rent for such a structure?

The land is owned by the Coopers. When people camp there during the
year they pay a fee per day. Usually it's about $4 or $4.50, just 
like the rate we pay for camping there before the weekend of the
War. If they were to charge you a straight camping fee for having 
a forge or loom set up it would cost someone about $1500 per year. 
Also, there's the cost of putting up a new permanent structure that 
they would need only for one customer, the SCA.

How much would the cost of that new structure be worth it to them
in the long run? Would it be a reasonable capital expense? 

Before you continue brainstorming on this topic, you really need to 
contact the Coopers and get their reaction to your idea.

In service,

Esmeralda la Sabia
From: 00mjstum@bsu-ucs.uucp (Matthew J. Stum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrows (was Authenticity, A
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:59:37 GMT

(Jay Brandt) writes:
>> Actually, here in the Middle, the current poundage limit is set at 55#.
>> Most of us here in our shire that are interested have found some 50#
>> fiberglass bows that we're going to cover.
>> 
>> The impact is quote noticable at 20 yards or so... you definitely won't
>> have the problem of fighters not even knowing that they've been hit.  :-)
>  
> Wow! Just how did they manage to convince their heavies and lights to allow
> that high a bow weight? Makes sense to me, as I have often felt that 30# is
> a bit light. I'm not too sure I would want to get hit on an unarmored spot
> with a 55# bow though.

Well, actually, we have no "lights".  The bow and arrow is merely another
weapons form for the "heavy" to authorize in after sword and shield. I think
this will help alleviate the lights-don't-have-to-go-through-the-same-thing-
we-do-to-fight mentality of non-archers.

And even at a close range of 15 to 20 yards the impact of the arrow isn't
as hard as a good sword blow.  Remember, you're getting hit by something
the diameter of a tennis ball that squishes... but the mere mass does give
it some punch... enough that you know you've been hit.

> The biggest complaint I have against golf
> tube arrows is that they are too bulky. I would need a couple of "war
> pages" toting bags of the things to have enough ammo for a normal battle
> scenario. As noted in an earlier post, golf tubes aren't -too- bad on
> accuracy -IF- you use a 50# bow.

We plan to use army duffle bags as "field quivers".  We'll reinforce them
so they are self-standing always-open.  Similar wooden and leather quivers
are period.  This will also be a convenient place to stuff a bastard sword
or a couple of single-hand swords.  You probably won't need to carry as
many arrows either since golf-tube arrows are gleanable (i.e. you can pick
up spent arrows and re-use them w/o having them re-inspected).

> Then again I've heard that the Middle Kingdom also
> allows "Heavy Archers, in full armor, that can play with the missile
> weapons and do a one-way switch to heavy at any time during a given battle.
> Is this so?

Hmmm... I'm not sure about the one-way part.  I haven't heard anything
against being able to defeat your enemy with a sword and then picking your
bow back up.  The only restriction is that you cannot have another weapon
in hand along with your bow and arrow (i.e. you can't be the "famous Double
Armed Man" or whatever he's called).

If you are only authorized in sword and shield besides bow and arrow and/or
don't want to switch to another weapon if you're closed upon, the archers
have the option to raise their bow above their head and call "I YIELD!"
(I think I'd probably go down on one or two knees too just for good measure..
<grin>).

-- 
Matt Stum                    Gwydion ap Myrddin       Ball State University
00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu   Shire of Afonlyn, MK     Muncie, IN  USA
From: carole_newson-smith@net.COM (Carole Newson-Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: British Museum Books
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:54:22 GMT
Organization: The Internet


                                           8/17/92      6:55 PM
                                       British Museum Books

Greetings to the Rialto from Cordelia Toser

Recently there were postings regarding some secondary source books 
which are becoming available in the UK from the British Museum Press 
on subjects including Scribes, Armourers, Embroiderers, etc.

A bit of good news.  They are available in North America from the University 
of Toronto Press, but the ISBN numbers are different.

A merchant who sells at events in the West under the name Green Duck 
has some 3 titles currently in stock and the others back ordered.  I've asked 
him to save me a copy of the one on shoes when that title comes in.

Mea culpa, I forgot to ask the price.

I hope this information is of some help to you.

Cordelia Toser
Southern Shores, Mists, West
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic, Some Thoughts
Organization: Youngstown State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:59:27 GMT

Greetings to all, from Vajk!
 
Nicholas and Hal have responded to my post about an A&S section at Pennsic.
As I stated, the idea was arrived at independently by perhaps half a dozen
persons (that I am aware of), but I would be more than happy to coordinate
any effort to arrange such a thing.
 
At this stage it is only a musing (or is that amusing?) (and is THAT??)
 
Anyhow, we won't really know if it is implementable until we seriously try
to work out the problems associated with it.
 
I think I just volunteered.  I know others have thought of doing this, so I
hope some are on the Net and willing to help.
 
If there is little response I guess that means there is not enough interest.
 
Otherwise, let's see what we can work out.
 
Vajk
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Grand Pennsic
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:20:29 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Greetings all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  (Yes, I came home too.  But there
were almost immediate problems here, that have been keeping me occupied, and
probably will for the next week or so.  Sigh.  But that *will* keep any 
postings shorter.... ;^)

Aell Aethelwita, called Ellethel, recently wrote,

>On the "War" versus "Tournament" discussion, to those of us who have been
>attending Pennsic for many years, this may seem in some ways only a fine
>point. However, words shape attitudes, perhaps even more so among the
>impressionable young and new members, and I think the "Festival" and
>"Tournament" idea is a much better one than "War". Emotions can run high,
>especially when people are tired from camping out, exposure to the weather,
>staying up late, and so forth, and I think reminding folks that this is a
>display and that any competition is supposed to be friendly cannot hurt at
>all. But as always, that's a personal opinion.

Certainly it cannot hurt, although we have many other "wars", and I have
never heard that they have caused lasting harm.  I would neither argue
that there are no good reasons to consider change nor that their Majesties
of the East and Middle deliberately set out to do wrong.  But I am deeply
bothered.  What bothers me far more than the change itself is the combination 
of the pall of secrecy and the misrepresentations.

It seems to me to violate the usual agreements of fealty when the royalty 
of a kingdom make a decision such as this not only without consulting their 
peers and ministers, but explicitly requesting that no one tell them.  In
addition, if one _really_ wants to damp down hot heads, it seems to me that
one does _not_ summon them to war.  One makes this decision months ahead,
and then summons them to a tourney, or a faire, or whatever.  To make such
a decision in secrecy seems to me to obviate both the desirable effect and
the normal bonds that hold our group together.

Second, while we are playing a game, we are playing a game within which 
lying and betrayal are normally considered a bad thing.  Yet both crowns
negotiated with allies, and bid them under treaties, to come to a war that
they intended to cancel.  Look, Pennsic isn't cheap.  People came in large
numbers from places like Ansteorra and Calontir, at great personal expense.
Their Kings called on them as their armies, under the faith they held to
their Crowns, to support them.  There _were_ some people -- not many,
perhaps, but some -- who stretched resources that were for them scarce
and dear to meet that call.  Some would not have done so for a tourney --
nor, under the rules of our game, should they have felt the same weight.

Those people were brought to Pennsic, at great cost to them, under false
pretenses.

Yes, this is a game.  But do we have _no_ rules that matter?  If so, it is
not a very interesting game.

In Service to the Society,

Angharad ver' Rhuawn/Terry Nutter
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Update (End)
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:53:09 GMT


Charles the Clerk remarked upon about the Salisbury Horse on the
hillside over the tourney field being the work of the Horse Clan.

I complimented them on their work, as I was crying the encampment
in their area.  It seems they didn't do it, and wanted to know who
had.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Clueless Classes
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:59:54 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Bertram of Bearington (David Schroeder) writes:

>Folks, we're talking about "theories" on a par with Ancient
>Astronauts and New World "Indians" being the Lost Ten Tribes
>of Israel.  I'm not mentioning more specific things, because
>the instructor is probably not on the Rialto to defend his or
>herself.  

Well, since you refuse to mention specifics, all we really
know is that *in your opinion* the theories are on a par
with Ancient Astronauts and the Lost Tribes of Israel.  I'm 
sorry, but the fact that you are outraged by something is not
enough of a reason, in itself, for me to be outraged.  Yes, 
there are many crackpots around who claim that the scientific
establishment is too pigheaded to accept their theories.  But
there are also times when the scientific establishment really
is pigheaded.  Take the Smithsonian Institution, for example,
which refused to admit, up until three or four years ago, that 
the Wright brothers could have made the first airplane flight.

I understand why you do want to discuss the specifics taught
by an instructor who is not here to defend himself.  However,
by making these accusations without specifics to back them up,
you are casting aspersions on the entire class system, without
giving anyone a chance to defend it or even determine if it
should be defended.


>Should I mellow out here, folks?  After all, I only caught five minutes
>of the presentation -- perhaps the balance of the class was less flakey,
>though somehow I doubt it...  

How the heck should I know?  You're presenting us with a verdict 
and asking if it's correct without giving the facts of the case.

-- Nicholas van Leyden


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Subject: Re: kids in SCA
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:00:34 GMT

There used to be a lady in Caer Anterth (Milwaukee, WI) who was, as 
I recall, responsible for founding the Pages' School in the Midrealm.
If she's still active, and someone out there knows how to contact 
her, she might have some valuable thoughts regarding this thread.
I vaguely recall her SCA name as being Gaelic & impronouncible; she
was known as Lady Fey & her mundane first name was, I believe, Leah.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
From: aboz@egf-bbs.uucp (Aboz the Untidy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: How long does it take?
Date: 11 Aug 92 12:22:21 GMT
Organization: EGF, MN Public Access Unix

Since we are a new group, and our seneschale and her husband are the only
ones with much SCA experience (13 yrs in East), we are a bit concerned
about how long things take around here.  For example,  We organized our
group in February and sent all the requisite paperwork to the regional
seneschale, including confirmation of subscribing members.  Just LAST WEEK
we finaly learned that we have been recognized as an _incipient_ group,
and that only numerous letters, the one to the new Kingdom seneschal being
the one that apparently did the trick.

We held our first event in May.  Our sponsor didn't return the sponsorship
form to us untill AFTER the event, hence it could not be announced in the
kingdom newsletter, and thus was not official.

Have new grups elsewhere experienced similar delays, or is this something
peculiar to the Midrealm?

We are in a town of about 50,000.  Since forming we have gained 10
'subscribing' members, with another 5 in the mail, and have a membership
list of over 30.  If this keeps up, by the time we go full-status, we'll
be a barony.  (I think .%"Baron Berwynn" has a nice ring to it).

Don't mean to bitch, but we are unsure if we are being given a run-around,
or if this sort of thing happens to everybody.

Berwynn

-- 
Berwynn Aethelbryght, Pursuivant of the Shire of Elverod, Grand Forks, ND
                BKA (Known on the BBS as) Aboz the Untidy
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Instructions for ancient kilt - feileadh mor
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 02:28:25 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

guth@unixg.ubc.ca (Geoff Guth) writes:

> In article <Bt3nDC.6E1@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S
> >Ailsa blamed modern ideas of colour-co-ordination on the Puritans.
> >
> >I would prefer to pin the ideas on Beau Brummel, who influenced the Prince
> >Regent to make the dark suit the uniform of the English court.  It's much
> >easier for me to envision widespread fashion influence from Beau Brummel
> >than it is to imagine English people wanting to dress like puritans.
>
> This does make more sensese considering that people are a lot more likely
> to imitate the style of the Court than that of a rather marginal religious
> group.>
>

but the puritans were NOT an obscure religious group in america.  they were the
dominant religious group in most of new england.  their infulence on our
culture has been quite profound, much more extensive than most peopel
realize...

                                           -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
      No visible means of support          Silence \      / Action
      and you have not seen nothing yet.      =     \    /    =
      Everything's come together.           Death    \  /    Life
                                                      \/
From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Under the kilt; Visby
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 01:45:31 CST
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP> writes:

> Greetings from Godfrey!
> 
> In article <199208181958.AA08186@meryl.csd.uu.se>, vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]k
> > 
> > A friend of mine has photographic evidence that it's true:
> > The Scots really do not wear anything under the kilt.
> 
> When I was in Edinburgh, a tour guide addressed this very issue:
> 
>    "Whenever anyone asks me if anything is worn under the kilt, I
>    always reply, `No, everything's in perfect working order.'"
> 
> :-)
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
> | SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
> |       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>       "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"

 Most wear (or not) according to personal preferance.  No big deal.

;--- (boris) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrows (was Authenticity, A
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:25:33 GMT
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <59623@mimsy.umd.edu> kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) writes:
>
>The world record for distance is something around
>900 or 1000 yards (a bit more than 1/2 mile) according to Klopsteig
>in _Turkish Archery_.  
>The arrows are also very, very light, and are specially
>made for the sport of distance shooting.
>
>Draw weight does not necessarily correspond to distance fired; the
>factors involved are much more complex.  Chief among them are the
>size, shape, and weight of the arrow,  . . .

Another major factor is what might be termed 'limb efficieny' or
'transfer function'--the ability to get the stored energy out of the
limbs and into the arrow.  Self-bows (like the long bow) aren't as
good at this as even the traditional composite recurves.  Net result
is that a longbow may perform *worse* with a light arrow than with a
heavy one.  Remember that you have to accelerate the *limbs* as well
as the arrow.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: kids in SCA
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 00:05:34 EDT

aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

> In article <2iioPB2w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Gray
> 
> >NOT your arms; anyone wearing your arms was either you, or your
> >personal herald.  (Most people did not have a personal herald!)
> >Badges marked retainers and possessions; I suspect, but do not
> >know, that the more appropriate thing for a list officer would
> >be some sort of object (white rods, white arrows) that served
> >as a badge of office.
> 
> When do you suppose the distinction between arms and badges started?  I mean,
> it's an old saw that the arms identify the person and the badge identifies
> associates and property, but when did that start?
> 
> Aryk
> 

The short answer is that I don't know.

A slightly longer answer might be that there had to be some way to 
spot sides, before uniforms for armies, and that it was probably
risky to assume that everyone on your side recognized your personal
arms as belonging to someone on your side.

How many of the early badges are plant badges?  These would be
readily available, although to anyone who wanted to pick one.

Did every knight have a badge?  I have the impression that it was
only great nobles who did, but I don't have any references primarily
concerned with badges.

Graydon
 
P.S.  paintings of Hundred year's war scenes seem to show all the english
with crosses of St. George, and all the French with someone else's cross
(red on white, and red on blue).  Artistic convention, or not?

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Clueless Classes
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:27:09 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Bertram recounted hearing a class at Pennsic which apparently presented
very questionable material on its subject.  This is a problem that has
worried me for years: As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no effort
made to ensure that classes at Pennsic maintain any particular level of
quality, or even that the teachers know the slightest bit about their
subjects.  The only criterion seems to be that the teacher volunteered to
teach.  To give one example: I was astounded at my first couple Pennsics as
War Herald to find that classes on heraldry had been scheduled without any
attempt to coordinate through the War Herald, or even to check whether the
instructors were competant to teach.  Perhaps at one time that was
reasonable, when there weren't enough classes, but that it hardly the case
today.  

The Pennsic classes constitute an important schola: For many people, these
are the only classes that they attend in the entire year.  I think it is
important to have some kind of quality control.  I'm not sure if it is
reasonable to expect the class autocrat to personally review every class,
so perhaps some sort of letter of recommendation could be accepted.  I
think requiring a letter from the head of a kingdom guild, a kingdom
officer, or other reliable source might be enough to ensure that most of
the teachers are competant.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aboz@egf-bbs.uucp (Aboz the Untidy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Kids and their parents
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:11:07 GMT
Organization: EGF, MN Public Access Unix

The Midrealm Chatelane office puts out a simply wonderful 16-page pamphlet
titled "Your Teenager and the SCA - Some Answers for Parents".  Perhaps
this is available in other kingdoms as well.  Its in a Question and answer
format, and explains what the SCA is and isnt, who participates, what they
learn, answers concerns about sex and alcohol, and emphatically explains
that SCA is NOT Dungeons and Dragons.  (My favorite questionn is "Is that
a dress my son is wearing?")
This is available form theMiddle Kingdom Chatelaine and the Information
Office.  I highly reccoommend it.


-- 
Berwynn Aethelbryght, Pursuivant of the Shire of Elverod, Grand Forks, ND
                BKA (Known on the BBS as) Aboz the Untidy
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic Rialto Party
Organization: Youngstown State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:34:09 GMT

Greetings to all, from Vajk!
 
I would like to second Bertram's remarks!  It was indeed a wonderful night.
Other regular posters to attend included Arval, Justin, Tibor, Alexander of
Kiev, Hossein, Da'ud, Jessa, and many others (if I could just remember them.
The gentle from Newfoundland was Miklos.
 
Many who described themselves as "lurkers" were also in attendance.  Yaakov
was mightily pleased, even though his stew went bad before we could sample it.
In the past, it seems (this was my first Pennsic Rialto party) the party broke
up around dusk.  I left about 11:30 or so and there were still a dozen or more
having fun.
 
Really must do this next year also.
 
Thanks to Yaakov for hosting.
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca