From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:18:01 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Oct.13.01.21.37.1992.21932@geneva.rutgers.edu>, REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:

> In article <Oct.12.02.27.13.1992.19838@geneva.rutgers.edu> dxf12@po.cwru.edu
> (Douglas Fowler) writes:
> >      Though I am not Catholic, I am beginning to lean more and more to their
> > thinking on Purgatory - it sounds like this would be a good compromise for
> > such people, and the kind that a loving God would create.  . . .

> *"it sounds like this would be a good compromise"

> That's just what it is.  The Scriptures *plainly* teach that it is appointed
> once for man to die and then comes judgement.  

Of course -- this does not contradict the doctrine of purgatory, in fact it
lends credence to it.  Many evangelical Christians I know seem to deny that
Christians will be judged; somehow, we all get off scot-free without so much
as a word.  To them, only the unrighteous are judged.  This is not what 
Scripture says.  Scripture says that EVERYONE will be judged, and "God shows
no favoritism."  It also says that God will reward EVERYONE according to
their works, "good or bad".  This means that we can be punished for the ill
that we do after judgment, even if we are Christians.

> The doctrine of Purgatory is extra-Biblical.  

Personal I think it is, check out I Cor 3:10ff.  This is essentially what
purgatory is.  We will enter the all-holy presence of the Lord after death,
which is a consuming fire.  Everything within us -- all the bad that we do,
all those areas which we have not given up to him, all of the sins we cling
to -- will be unable to withstand the fire, and they will burn.  This will be
painful, but we will escape, as one through fire.

I don't hear too many Protestant preaching on 1 Cor 3:10ff much.

There is also much other Biblical evidence.

> If that doesn't bother you, so be it.  But just let it be known that
> it is not a doctrine of either the Scriptures, of Christ or of the
> early fathers.

There is also patristic evidence for purgatory.  It was also a doctrine of the
Jews of the time; read Josephus, On Hades:

AN EXTRACT OUT OF JOSEPHUS' DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES 

1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are
detained, it is necessary to speak of it.  Hades is a place in the world not
regularly finished; a /subterraneous/ region, wherein the light of this world
does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not
shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual /darkness/.  This region
is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as
guardians to them, who distribute to them /temporary punishments/, agreeable to
everyone's behavior and manners.
---
Note the last sentence.

> It is just as you have stated, a "compromise,"  man trying to
> water down the severity of retribution against his sinful freewill choices.  

No, keep in mind that purgatory is for those who deserve to enter Heaven, not
for those who deserve to enter Hell.  You are the one who tries to water down
the severity of retribution against man's sinful freewill choices, since you
no doubt believe that a Christian is not held accountable for his behavior
and will not have to answer for his deeds after death.  Purgatory is not a
relief of punishment for the unrighteous; rather, it is chastisement for the
imperfect just, those whom you would believe go to heaven.

Concerning Jesus going down into Hell, I should point out to Douglas that what
was meant in this verse is that Jesus went down to SHEOL, or HADES, *NOT*
Gehenna, that is, the hell you think of.  Many versions of the Scriptures
translate two entirely different words "Hell".  Sheol, or Hades, was, in the
Old Covenant, the land of the dead, where everyone went.  (See the Josephus
quote above.) Jesus went to preach to those who died before his coming, and to
free the righteous who went before.  Jesus did NOT visit those who were in the
everlasting punishment of Gehenna, which did not exist at that time, but is
reserved until the end of time for Satan and his angels.

> Rex

Eric
--
/===========================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.