From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Paul Bartholomew wants more data; here it comes
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:18:49 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <193299@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
> And, once again, you still haven't answered my question:  what about the vast
> majority of material you are not presenting?  Could it be that you don't
> present it because it doesn't support your crusade?  Because we might find
> out that homosexuals are normal people aside from the fact that they've been
> scarred by a society that rejects them and people who post misinformation
> and lies like you?
> 
> Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of

Here's more.

======================================================================
2) Your complaints are quite obviously rooted deeply in the
Amurrican belief that children are completely asexual until
the magic day they reach the arbitrary "Age of Consent" and
thence are permitted the glories of sex.  ***BULLSHIT***.
 
Several people here have related personal accounts of being
sexual *well* before the legal age of consent -- but since
that doesn't fit in with the conclusion you have ALREADY
reached, and doesn't support your repressive agenda, you
ignore it.
   
Molesting *ANYONE* is wrong -- but sex with a child who is
aware and consenting is not necessarily "molestation."
   
Get a *LIFE*, asshole.
======================================================================
WHAT I WOULD HAVE CONSENTED TO WHEN I WAS 13 YEARS OLD
               (For Dave Rindos)

To be tied to a post in the shining snow, while
boys in white circle me with torches,
Owls sneer at my pain, whips
crack in the tinkling air, snakelike;

To be kidnapped by Russians, Gagarins, Yevtushenkos,
naked, without help, in the blue-iced steppe,
Laughingly bound, complicitly tortured,
till, broken with joy, I tell all;

To be spread-eagled on a rack, wrenched to pain,
by men who kiss me when I scream, kiss me
again as they turn again, kindly
kiss me in the clear light as I scream;

To that curly-haired boy,
                          that one,
                                    that blond one,
To strap me down and take me without pity,
His cool bright eyes staring through my head.
(That truly happened...)

-

Pitted and dulled, these profiles; then,
they were new-minted, crystal-sheened, frost bright.
But grey lines tugged; abandoned, the child
left for years the shining land,

And on my return, found many gates closed,
Ravines blocked with boulders, ways deserted
now overgrown beyond passing, castles once crowded
rotten, blank-windowed, impenetrable.  Grieving

I built, starting without foundations,
huts, lintels, cabins;  then towers
of desire, satiety, happiness in history
shared.  I am content.  Still,

at times, I wonder, and catch his eye,
my little ancestor; and when we hear
that children sleep, empty and unwanting,
We remember shining things, and smile.

----

--John
--Who, as a boy, would have liked nothing better than
--to be pursued, vigorously and skillfully, for sodomy
======================================================================
also, you've warped pederasty into child molestation.  pederasty is
different.  like slavery, child molestation doesn't involve the child's
free-will.  pederasty does.  in child mollestation, the child is abused. 
you won't find ANYONE supportive of child mollestation.  however, you
will find people supportive of pederasty.  NAMBLA sis supposed to be a
pederasty type organization not a child molestation organization. 
although i don't have any of their information, i'd believe this
assertion from the gay community before i'd believe it from a
fundamentalist.  gay people tend to view things more fairly in
terms of themselves in regard to their culture rather than their culture 
in terms of themselves.
======================================================================
I don't know why, but you are still confusing consensual sex with 
youngsters with molestation. I agree that sex between adults and
prebusescent children is questionable. As for the "leer" business, 
======================================================================
Huh? How is the classic pederastic relationsship exploitative
and child molesting?
======================================================================
You should be aware, Cramer, that sex in connection with children
is a VERY touchy subject and that there is by no means any consensus
in the gay community on this matter. What angers me the most is your
======================================================================
Also, a point for Scott Safier: Honey, if you're worried about the
effect the media's attention to NAMBLA will have, just what do you
think about *After The Ball*?  And please don't bother worrying too
much about NAMBLA and the media (quick warning to Pater Ursus
Vanilliaribus - get the hand-over-the-eyes ready... :-); although the
Leather Fairies have not yet gotten together enough people and energy
to float our own contingent in a gay parade, it's only a matter of
time - and the stuff we're likely to do, a sort of gay pagan SM
ecstatic shamanism takeoff of a standard Far Eastern festival whose
name I forget (sort of a non-Christian equivalent of the Feast of St.
Anthony), is *much* more telegenic - people making loads of noise and
dancing up the street with balls and fruit sewn to their chests and
backs and shoulders, and the Kavandi, which is a sort of portable
see-through variation on the Iron Maiden...
======================================================================
In article <1991Aug14.145911.291@HQ.Ileaf.COM> ltaylor@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Laura Taylor) writes:

>i was molested by the guy next door at age 10, and was slicing parts of my
>body open with a razor blade at age 11. no i'm not stupid enough to let
>that happen to any of my kids whether they be girls or boys. over protecting
>them does not hurt them at all.  

I was having sex with my neighbor (male) at age 12.  I initiated it.
I had a lot of sex before I was legal.  I think it was wonderful.
Don't belittle my experience by telling me that it is stupid.  It
might not work for you. Fine, but do not tell me that it does not work
for everyone.
>you queers that defend the pedophiles and the boy scouts are doing a disservice
>to the rest of us. the boy scouts have a big problem on their hands, and i
>hope they resolve it soon before any more kids' lives are ruined. in the mean
>time do yourself a favor and don't associate yourself with that organization.
>you're making the rest of us queers who care about children look bad.


Fuck you.  Don't you fucking dare tell me that I am doing a disservice
to homosexuality.  Get the fuck out of my sex life.  I have not taken
any shit about what I have done sexually since I became sexually active
at age 12.  Just because you do not approve of children having sex
does not make it wrong.  Get over your hang-ups, I know of many
situations where boys were involved in man-boy relationships which
were wonderful.

I do care about children.  I care that they do not get the same stupid
sexual hang-ups that ignorant parents such as yourself give them.


I defend pedophiles.  I don't think that pedophilia is the cause of
the problem.  I think people's attitude towards sex, and pedophilia in
specific, is more of the problem.  If people didn't keep telling
children that sex was bad and wrong and evil and if they did tell
children how to be responsible concerning sex, I don't think it would
be so bad.  Look at most ancient societies where pedophilia was
practiced.  It was not harmful then.  However, with judeo-christian
morals in our world, suddenly sex is bad.

I agree that children under 12 are not ready for sex.  I also feel
that children under 16 certainly are.
======================================================================
All this talk about NAMBLA and not much info... may I be so
bold as to contribute one of the smidgens of info I have heard
about their organization??

A BIG difference between a NAMBLA member and a child molester
is that NAMBLA is encouraging CONSENSUAL relationships between
men and boys. The difference between this and molestation is the
same as the difference between "making love" and rape.

Now, I'm not sure how much of this I swallow, because adults
are in such a tremedously powerful position relative to children
that the meaning of consent is somewhat blurred. However, I firmly
believe that it is possible for a 14 year old boy to have a positive,
caring and sexual relationship with an adult, if the adult handles
it well. I would have dearly loved to be in that position when I
was 14... but alas, it was not to be.

It is for these reasons that I refuse to judge man/boy relationships
by any single rule. They must be examined on a case by case 
basis to decide if they are positive or not. Perhaps if these
relationships could be out in the open, there would be less of
a chance of pathological ones forming? If children knew that it
was OK to have sex so long as they wanted it themselves, they would
be more willing to reveal when they have been molested and name the
perpetrator? Ha! dream on...
======================================================================
In Portland, we've been dealing with the whole paedophilia issue
recently in the lesbigay community. A group of hatemongers are trying
to amend the Oregon constitution to read "Pedophilia, sadism,
masochism, homosexuality, bestiality and necrophilia are recognized by
this state as abnormal, unnatural and perverse conduct." This will be
a public referendum campaign.

The issue has come up in the "No on Hate" committee, a lesbigay
community organizing effort to fight the amendment. I've been to two
public meetings where the issue has come up. In the first meeting, the
subject of S&M came up and from there someone said "I dont want to
support paedophilia" and from there, a lot of paedophile bashing. At
some point a person I've known from Queer Nation (who I will call
"John", like on the QN mailing list) spoke up and said he was a boy
lover, and resented the bashing. The meeting quickly degenerated into
shouting, and nothing was resolved, but a lot of people were upset.

At the next meeting the issue of paedophilia was brought up
specifically on the floor, and a resolution was passed along the lines
of "No on Hate will not knowingly work for paedophile causes, or work
with people advocating paedophilia" or something similar. Paedophilia
in this case is legally defined, which unfortunately in Oregon is
anyone under 18 having sex.
======================================================================
In article <14343@pt.cs.cmu.edu> scotts+@cs.cmu.edu (Scott Safier) writes:
>I do not think NAMBLA should be allowed to be represented in the 1993
>March. 

How can we, as an oppressed sexual minority, believe that we're in a position
to tell someone "this is not a valid way to express your love"?
======================================================================
>1.  We are screwed up about sex.  Everyone carries their histories.  Sex
>    for most people is mixed up with conflict and emotional turmoil.  I
>    don't see how a person could justify dumping a child in that
>    quagmire.

Well, I think people need to give children a little more credit.  I
agree concerning pre-pubescent children, but I don't think that high
school kids are quite as clueless as they seem (hmm... looking at this
sentence I am not sure I agree with myself, but I'll leave it in
anyway).  I think that if they are given the proper information
concerning sex, it would not be as traumatic.

Also, I do not believe that it should be okay to molest children... I
am talking consensual relationships.



>I'm sure there are cases where it works out.  There are exceptionally
>together adults, there are incredibly resiliant children;  and there are
>extremely lucky situations.  But the risks are terrible.

Again, I think that relationships that are in the open are much less
risky than our current state of affairs.  Remember, homosexuality was
considered to be much more of a security risk when homosexuality was
shunned.  "Outing" was a terrible thing at the time.  I think the same
might hold true of relationships with underage people.  If someone was
having an open affair with a 14 year old, the reaction when they were
outed would be "yeah, so what?"
======================================================================

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.