From: keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Karin E. Baker)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.northern-exp
Subject: Re: Historical accuracy of Maggie's claims?
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:09:30 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

Eric, get a grip on your own masculinity! See as follows (my emulator 
won't erase stuff without REALLY messing me up.. so forgive all the 
extraneous stuff..)


In <forb0004.192.726708906@student.tc.umn.edu> forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis ) writes:

>In article <1iq50cINNhoe@access.usask.ca> julie@skatter.USask.Ca (Julie Abell-Smith) writes:
>>From article <1ikemdINNlcf@shelley.u.washington.edu>, by vicka@wrq.com (the Littlest Orc):
>>  
>>  I think that Maggie wasn't concerned with what archaeologists, 
>>  present or future, male or female, might think of the site.  As 
>>  Maurice (?) said, it seemed like someone might have buried the 
>>  objects there *on purpose*, perhaps fairly recently.  Maybe Maggie 
>>  reburied them as a mark of respect for their original owner -- 
>>  she didn't like the idea of unburying the stuff for collectors 
>>  and archaeologists to squint at.  
>>  
>>  She also thinks of this kind of respect as a "female" value, opposed
>>  to the "male" value placed on opening up the site to prying eyes.
>>  (I don't know that values are really all that gendered myself, but
>>  since it got set up as Maggie/Marilyn/RuthAnn vs. Maurice/Ron&Eric,
>>  I can sure see why Maggie could see it that way.)


>It was sexism, pure and simple. I know of a good many men who were very 
>offended by Maggie's backhanded swipes at the entire gender; if this was 
>supposed to be irony or parody, they would have accomplished the same with 
>race by references to "niggers", etc.. Lousy episode. Considering their 
>founding sequence where lesbians were glorified and men were portrayed as 
>emotional cripples by nature, I'm not too surprised. Welcome to feminism in 
>action. 

Do you want to talk about sexism?  It's where you have a problem with lesbians
being glorified.  Heaven forbid that for once in a depiction which men actually
might watch (there have been several positive depictions in thing which are 
termed as "women's" shows such as "Heartbeat" and the "woman's" movie of 
"Fried Green Tomatoes" (which as I saw it, the NEXP show was a complete copy
of, therefore while making a positive statement about lesbians, gave us 
nothing original or new!).  And just because there are strong women, doesn't
mean by any lengths, such as in this episode to which you refer, that men are
"emotional cripples by nature" anymore than women are despite strong males.  
You wan to talk about sweeping backhand swipes, look at your own post.  

You really need to get a grip on your own masculinity so you don't feel 
threatened when a woman disagrees with your point, heaven forbid makes sweeping 
generalizations (I did not see the episode on the fourth, although I've
read plenty about it) about men, or portrays strong women, who happen 
to be lesbian, that you find your feathers ruffled.  Strong women say 
nothing about the men around them; they simply state about women.  That some 
men, such as yourself, seem to take every act, portrayal or thought by a woman
as some sort of reflection about their masculinity is very vain to say the
least. 

I'm sorry if this reaction towards you in particular seems extreme, but 
I am sick and tired of various men being so f-ing self-centered when viewing 
feminism, always focusing on themselves, and believing them, still, to be 
the focus of women's energies.  Lesbians are found to be threatening, 
simply because it's clear that at least their sexual energy, if not more, is 
NOT focused on a man! Aw, life is rough guys!  No, I don't mean to attack
all men, just those for whom this is true. 

I have several different type of male friends/acquaintaces.  The first is 
simply self-centered and believe because I don't find them attractive, I
must, therefore, be a man-hater.  I try not to spend much of my energy with
these types (which usually only reinforces their beliefs, c'est la vie, it's
their stupidity for jumping to such conclusions).  Another type of my freinds
are those men who are comfortable about who they are and who view me simply as 
Karin, a multi-faceted person, who happens to be a lesbian.  That I am a lesbian
has absolutely nothing to do with them, and they, fortunately, understand that.

Lesbian does not mean rejection of men, it means attraction towards women. 
The latter is not exclusive of men, it just doesn't outwardly include men.  
Which many men find threatening, so they, therefore, define it as the former.
"<grunt!> She just must not have found the right guy yet.. I'll show her.. "

Just as I don't expect men to get all macho around me and show me what a 
real man is like, I also don't need to feel men are reduced to emotional 
cripples, as you suggest the men were on the episode focusing on the founding
of Cicely.  I'd say respect would be about all I would require, and certainly
return.  I think it is that which the men of the newly founding Cicely gave
to the two women.

I would expect nothing less of you.


>>
>>
>>I've often wondered about this "respect" thing when it comes to ancient
>>artifacts.  If I knew that in a few hundred years someone was going to
>>dig up something that I've handmade, and put it in a museum, I'd be
>>happy.  Mind you, I'm not crazy about the idea of excavating ancient
>>corpses, but the things I have made and used are things that I wouldn't
>>mind future generations seeing.  Does anyone agree with me?
>>
>>
>>Jules
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>---------

>Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
-- 
;^) -Karin
keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: alt.tv.northern-exp