HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Full Circle
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:39:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.223519.29718@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.170639.1238@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
>>So you call brutally executing a person with his hands bound a proper
>>and succesful resistance tactic.
>
>  If the person is a soldier on duty, whose job is to oppress and to contribute
>to the killing of innocent Palestinians on command, I don't see what the
>problem is. Should the French have refrained from killing Nazis?
>
>
>Mazen Mokhtar

He was a policeman, not a soldier, and he was not on duty when he was kidnapped 
near his home.  Your accusation that his orders were to kill innocent Palestinians 
is pure emotionalism.  Learn from this.

Mazen cannot see through the rhetoric of revolution to his own anti-Semitism:

Dec. 10,

>>Israel has had to fight for its life since before it was established.

>  So, does Hitler have the right to fight for his life? Does Germany have
>the right to fight to remain Nazi? Even before Nazi Germany became
>established? How about South Africa?

Dec. 11,

>  Not a war of extermination. When the allies say that they are going to fightt
>the Germans it does not mean a war against all Germans. When the Hadith says
>that there are wars against Jews it does not mean against all Jews. The
>extent and limitations of war in Islam are well established. In a war, ennemy
>soldiers are to be fought until they desist or until they are defeated.
>
>Mazen Mokhtar

The actions of HAMAS to not conform to your statement that "the extent and 
limitations of war in Islam are well established."  Thus you are reduced to 
such silly diversions as:

>  So you want to teach us our religion now?

That is not my place, but I will always defend Jews from the dangerous kind of
emotionally overheated and unconsidered rhetoric that you seem to enjoy.  You 
continue to equate the Jews with the Nazis, and you are splattering all sorts
of false information about Islam and revolution across the net.

Your rhetoric cannot stand on its own two feet.  

I am finished with this thread.  I have learned from some of the other 
participants.  Thanks.

-- Chris Metcalfe




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:43:03 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Dec15225404@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
|> Look, the Arabs want to kill the Jews:
|> [from a recent posting on Hamas]
|>    >>>**   d) The Islamic movement is one link in the long chain of fighters
|>    >>>** against Zionism.  We are looking forward to implement Allah's and the
|>    >>>** Prophet's promise to the effect that "the time will come when the
|>    >>>** Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them.... Even if Jews should hide
|>    >>>** behind trees and rocks, these will cry out: `Oh Muslims, there is a
|>    >>>** Jew behind me, come and kill him..." (Article 7).

Completely false, this analogy. What we have here is a well
documented, organizationally sponsored hatred of Jews.

|> Look, the Jews want to kill the Arabs:
|> [from a recent newswire on current events in Israel]
|> >         In the town of Lod near Tel Aviv, where Toledano lived, crowds
|> > gathered outside in the rain and screams of anguish were heard from
|> > inside his family's home. Jewish youths ran through the mixed Israeli-
|> > Arab town Monday night, yelling, ``Death to the Arabs!''

Here we have an enraged mob (why pray tell would they be so mad). Let
us not interpret the anticks of a few enraged people to be
representative of the views of Jews in general.

|> Should we be surprised by this?  No.
|> --
|> =Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Harry.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: friedenb@gypsum.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Subject: Israeli Police on DISCOVERY Channel
Reply-To: friedenb@gypsum.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:17:46 GMT


I saw a commercial last night on the DISCOVERY Channel (A cable
station in the US and elsewhere?).  There will be a program
highlighting the Israeli Police Force.  

The commercial went something like this:  "They are police, 
expert bomb detectors, and anti-terrorist units.  They are
the Israeli Police."  The commercial tried to make it 
look like the Israeli Police are a bunch of James Bond
types.

It is on at 8pm, Thursday, December 17 on the DISCOVERY
Channel.  I saw the commercial in Eastern Time Zone.  
Check your local station for the correct time.


Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Misrepresentations
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:11:45 GMT

To: Brendan McKay

 BM> I've lost Wayne's wording and context, so I'll treat your
 BM> statement AS IF he said it.  It is not an accurate statement
 BM> of current Israeli policy.

It's a mistake to treat Kaufman's or Evans' descriptions as
remotely corresponding to my actual statements. I didn't say what
Evans said I said. What I said is that there exists strong
sentiment in Israeli society, and not only at the radical
fringes, for driving Arabs out of Biblical Greater Israel. I
named a few books in which theses trends are analyzed in depth,
by Ian Lustick, Robert Friedman, and Ehud Sprinzak. That these
sentiments could be translated into official Israeli government
policy sometime in the future is certainly not inconceivable,
particularly  when you have high officials like Benjamin
Netanyahu rhapsodizing about deporting many hundreds of
Palestinian agitators under the cover of China's human rights
abuses.

A standard tactic of many pro-Israelists is to bend and distort
statements out of shape with the object of dismissing them as
anti-Semitic. This "clever" stratagem saves no end of trouble in
having to conduct a fair and rational discussion about the
substance of legitimate issues. It also has the unfortunate side
effect of destroying the credibility of those who fall back on
it.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Pollard & Jewish Terrorism
Date: 14 Dec 1992 13:06:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   Your repeated charges that Jonathan Pollard supports terrorism
are not well documented as you repeatedly claim.  They are simply
flimsy inuendos.  And you have provided NO documentation for this
accusation.  It is not that I beleive it's impossible for Pollard
to have expressed support for some violent act against Arabs.  It
is just that your claims of documentation are stupid.  Show us an
item from Pollard, or give up on this unsupported claim, and move
on to some other area of Jew-bashing.  We Jews are a very diverse
people.  I'm sure that you will find something.
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Targetting civilians
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:15:16 GMT


 
<4658@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

Saddam did not have the authority under
Islamic law to declare jihad, and furthermore, Islam does not have
anything to do with the Gulf War, Scuds, or Palestinians.  

<1992Dec13.064519.2435255@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000):

>Your state ,israel, claims to bomb Lebanon's cities because
>they include terrorists.  AND IRAQ bombed Tel AVIV because it includes
>terrorists as well.  The terrorist in TEL AVIV, is a common terrorist
>of islam and arabism in the land of Hamas and Fatah.  Saddam and 
>Fatah are arabists, and Hamas is islamic.


	Two devotees of Islamic fundamentalism who often
	act in concert are presenting us here with
	divergent views.  Which is correct? Were the Scud attacks 
	consistent with Islamic principles or not?  I think
	Israelis would like to have a better understanding of the
	codes they will be subject to once Hamas turns
	Palestine into an Islamic state.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Zionism is Nationalism Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Date: 13 Dec 92 10:56:07 GMT

> In article <1483500305@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research  
<cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
> |> 
> |> TOPIC: Is Zionism a form of racism, or is'nt it ?
Hmmmmmm. Even the United Nations membership, never exactly a friend of  
Israel or, for that mattter, Jews, has decided that Zionism is not racism.
If you're gonna peddle anti-Zionist twaddle, could ya at least make sure  
it is current, up to date, anti-Zionist twaddle?





shalom


apikoroa-man
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Secular state
Date: 20 Dec 92 12:04:49 GMT

<1992Dec20.100942.7948@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim):

This was the palestenian position for a long time, one secular state including
jews, moslems, and christians all with equal rights.

	I believe Syria also supported this idea, and even offered
	to send in 40,000 troops to help keep the peace.  :)
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 03:00:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.080927.0106556@locus.com>, jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
|> Below is a description of the HUMANITARIAN and PEACFULL acts of the
|> HUMANITARIAN and PEACE LOVING state of Israel.

Did you forget to mention that the reason that Israel was forced into
taking these actions was because these are the very SAME people who
lead that wonderful group of "freedom fighters" called Hamas, which
has made a recent hobby of killing innocent, bound and gagged Israeli
officers. If you would notice, Israel has neither killed nor harmed
any one (despite the unfortunate shooting incident). Looks to me that
Israel has acted in an extra-ordinarily humanitarian way, given what
the circumstances of the situation were, I wonder how reasonable the
US would be if an American soldier was found executed by Hamas - not
as understanding as Israel I would imagine.

Israel has a priority to ensure the safety of her citizens. How would
you propose Israel deal with the Hamas attrocities?

Harry.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Can Mr. Perlman back up his claims? (was  Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy)
Date: 18 Dec 92 03:38:57 GMT
	<23075@venera.isi.edu> <1992Dec17.151119.29483@colorado.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU's message of 17 Dec 92 15:11:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.151119.29483@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
> In article <23075@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >As for Mr. Perlman himself, I can only end by reminding our readers that
> >while he has responded to my challenge (to find ONE example -- which
> >although not perfect, I'm willing to accept for now), he has done
> >absolutely NOTHING to defend his original claim, which I reproduce
> >below, in case he's forgotten it:
>
> Don't bother.  You've provided absolutely no evidence to impugn it, Dr.
> Arens.  You've tried to impugn it by innuendo, deliberate twisting of
> Mr. Damiri's writings, and the like.  That simply will not wash. 

Mr. Perlman is, as he has done in past arguments with me and possibly
others, confusing Usenet arguments ABOUT the state of the world with the
ACTUAL state of the world.  I included my reminder above, to try to
bring reality back to his attention.

Mr. Perlman's original claim, not prompted by me and not related to
anything I said, was:

> >> ...  I do know that numerous
> >> PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
> >> opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities

Mr. Perlman can accuse me of anything he wants, but for him to be
considered credible, he should be able to back up this statement that he
made.  Even if he succeeds in demonstrating to the whole world that I am
an ignorant fool -- he still needs to be able to back his statement up.

Simply claiming that "[Yigal has] provided absolutely no evidence to
impugn it" will not suffice, I'm afraid.  Mr. Perlman said that HE KNOWS
something.  There is little *I* can do to expose much about his state of
mind, nor is it my responsibility.  The truth of his claim to such
knowledge as he describes above is, unfortunately for Mr. Perlman,
something that only he needs to conclusively demonstrate.

Will he?

Or will he continue to claim that he is absolved of this responsibility
simply because I challenged him to find one example and -- let's say for
the sake of argument -- he succeeded?
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 07:45:47 GMT

In article <23096@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

# In article <1992Dec18.124600.16290@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# > In article <1gqq8qINNgmf@agate.berkeley.edu> sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:

# > # Under the fourth 1949 Geneva Convention, which covers occupied
# > # territories, the occupying power may not, under any circumstances
# > # whatsoever, expel residents from an occupied territory nor may it
# > # detain them without charges or imprison them outside the occupied
# > # territory. Collective punishment is also banned. It is also a clear
# > # violation of the convention to settle Israeli civilians in the West
# > # Bank and Gaza.

# > Throughout the entire evolution of the fourth Geneva convention,
# > including its official interpretations, it is clear that the Convention
# > does not prohibit all expulsions, despite the fact that the wording of
# > the convention may lead one to believe that.
 
# Article 49 of the 1949 (Fourth) Geneva Convention on the Protection
# of War Victims states, among other things:
 
#   Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of
#   protected persons [i.e., inhabitants of occupied territory -- YA]
#   from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or
#   to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited
#   regardless of motive.
 
# Yes, I can see why the innocent reader might be misled into believing
# that the convention prohibits expulsions.  Luckily we have Mr. Makowsky
# to set us straight.
 
	Unfortunately, Yigal does not seem to be able tor read.  If he
did, he would have seen the justification (which I originally saw in a
column by William Safire) for what I wrote.  And I never claimed the
convention does not prohibit any exoulsions.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 15:07:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.201233.2907@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
>	You can't!  You know what they say, put 2 Jews in a room and you'll
>	get 3 opinions.
>
Now, I am sure if a non-Jew said that he would be an antisemite.
>
>	Geoff
>
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
>>
>>This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
>>Bloody good value if you ask me.
>
>
>-- 
>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>
>A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Targetting civilians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:26:12 GMT

In article <4658@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>If you are suggesting that Saddam's call for 'holy war' (i.e. jihad)
>applies here, you are wrong.  Saddam did not have the authority under
>Islamic law to declare jihad, [...]

How could Saddam be authorized to call a Jihad when we all know that
it is the Ayatollah who does this?  Worse yet, the Ayatollah had
called a Jihad against Saddam, so for Saddam to call a Jihad against
the Aytollah would pit Muslims against Muslims in Holy War, but that 
self-destructive position wouldn't be a first in Islam, I am afraid. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israeli extremists
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:25:14 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


More from Wayne McGuire...


#To: Naftaly Stramer
#
# WM> Have any German or French high government officials called for
# WM> the deportation of minorities from their countries? Perhaps Le
# WM> Pen in France has, but he is not as powerful in his country as
# WM> Netanyahu is in his. If Le Pen were interviewed by King and
# WM> Koppel, would they fail to make an issue of his views towards
# WM> minorities?
#
# NS> The minorities in those countries are not thorpwing stones
# NS> and killing the majoriy people of the countries.
#
#I see: so you support the deportation of Palestinians from
#Biblical Greater Israel, correct?

    You are still lying about what Netanyahu advocated.  You know
    perfectly well that he called for deporting violent criminals 
    ONLY!  He never called for wholesale deportation of those who
    just happen to be Palestinian.  You have implied this several 
    times.  It is a lie.


#We have had numerous riots in the U.S. in which some
#African-Americans have engaged in violence: those Americans who
#called for collective punishment of all African-Americans in
#retaliation, or for the deportation of those who engaged in
#violent activities, have been regarded as lunatics and extremists
#on the far right of the political spectrum, in the same category
#as neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

    Again, you implying a complete falsehood.  The PLO exists for
    the sole purpose of destroying Israel.  The PLO charter is my
    source for this claim.  You do know what it means to name the
    source of one's assertions, don't you, Wayne?


#Not in Israel, however: in that country a high government
#official like Benjamin Netanyahu can call for mass deportations
#of an oppressed minority, and the Israeli lobby here in the U.S.
#barely raises its eyebrow. The double standards of these folks
#are eventually going to catch up with them. Wait and see....

    How many times can one repeat the same falsehood.  He did NOT
    call for the wholesale deportation of the Palestinian people.
    He did not call for anything even remotely like that.  PLEASE
    give at least a nod to the truth once and a while.  This does
    not mean grabbing a fact out of context while omitting others
    which don't support your racist thesis.  Truth means TRUTH!


#Btw, protestors in South Korea have engaged in much
#stone-throwing and worse, but South Korean security forces have
#had little trouble keeping control of the situation without
#resorting to deadly violence or (!) mass deportations. It seems
#that the chosen nation, Israel, has a good deal to learn about
#riot control, not to mention fundamental ethics, from unchosen
#nations like South Korea.

   Wayne McGuire has a good deal to learn about Israel, Jews, and
   the tenacity with which some of us will respond to liars.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Antisemitism
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:05:36 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 42489@sdcc12.ucsd.edu, revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
><Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>WM> If Israel applies various devices to drive
>WM> non-Jews out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other
>WM> nations in the world applied various devices to drive Jews from
>WM> their midst?

>   RE> If a person posts thinly-veiled antisemitic innuendo, how
>   RE> could that person possibly complain about racism of
>   RE> others?

>>Ah yes, the old anti-Semitism smear. Doesn't it embarrass you to
>>use it?

>	A fair question.  Should one be embarrassed to point
>        out antisemitism altogether?  Not in my opinion.
>        I have unabashedly done this in the case of David
>        Irving, Robert Faurisson, and the bcpu-group on this
>	network.  It was easy to see through the standard defense,
>        "I'm not antisemitic, I'm antizionist."

Another pathetic childish attempt at slander-by-association.
I thought you'd grow out of it by now.  What a pity.

>	Now, as for the case at hand, a suggestion that Israel has
>        a policy to drive out citizens based on their non-Jewishness
>	alone strikes me as antisemitic innuendo.  I am not at all
>	embarrassed to say so.

Well, you should be.

This posting does not constitute an opinion of Wayne, just an
expression of my displeasure at the prospect of seeing worthwhile
threads dragged into the mud.

>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Brendan.
From: sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Mass expulsion by Israel
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:09:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

Let's note that one of the 1,600 arrested is a reporter
for the New York Times, who was mentioned in a news article
yesterday and in the Times editorial today. How many of the
others are merely people whose completely legitimate
activities are embarrassing or annoying to Israeli authorities?
Israel has refused to release a list of names of those it is
trying to expel.

Steve Goldfield
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: Occupation
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:29:26 GMT

In article <42741@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
><1992Dec20.053857.20960@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim):
>
>If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
>the ONLY occupying force in the world today.
>
>	Wrong.  Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey are occupying
>	Kurdistan.  The PKK (the Kurdish version of the PLO)
>	seeks to make Kurdistan an autonomous Kurdish state.
>	In the last eight years, over 3700 people have died
>	in clashes with the PKK in Turkey alone.
>

BZZZZT! WRONG! Kurdistan was not invaded by all of those states and occupied.
Residents in those areas are CITIZENS of the respective countries. They have
the same rights as the rest of the population (which is not saying much in
most of the ME :-(.

>
>-- 
>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Zeyd

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast