HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Autocrat (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Summary: clarifications
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:06:40 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <BuBpKp.5BF@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>
>I would suggest a salary package that cost the War about $35,000 including
>benefits.  Budgeting would have to be altered accordingly.

I believe that $35,000 is about what the current total SCA budget for Pennsic
is at this point.  This would double the budget.  I suspect that there are
people who would accept less than that in order to be a paid autocrat, but
I'm just guessing.

The Steward's salary is less, is it not?

>I would suggest that corporate monies per se not pay for this salary, but
>rather that it be paid directly from the War's revenues, the way the
>Coopers are.  Pennsic War is treated by the Corporation as a special case
>already.  For instance, alternate wars are held in the East Kingdom, but are
>administered by the Middle.  Fighting rules are changed for tournaments,
>etc., etc.  The local group's role has been reduced significantly...

The local groups still contribute a big percentage of the total effort, but
the time when Gwyntarian or the BMDL could run the War by itself is long
past.  We've burned out a lot of people in the last 10 years.

The Coopers are paid separately by the campers as a camping fee; the Coopers
also collect a fee that is turned over to the SCA.  

>And on the subject of paid security guards:

The Coopers/Wilvers already have a small security team of their own, which
backs up the SCA security system.  This is paid out of their income.

>I would be willing to pay for Pennsic security people to take a community
>college course in policing or security work.  I don't like the idea of my
>property being at risk because security is left to amateurs.

I don't know much about recent Wars, but at Pennsic XIV the security autocrat
and his deputy were both ex military police.  We also had a clinical
psychologist who volunteered.  The major problem with setting up your own
police force is the liability issue, both civil and criminal.

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Land Allocation
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 21:33:42 -0500

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writeth unto
aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher):

 CM> let's not confuse "personal agenda" with "enlightened self-interest."
 CM> An Autocrat who sets rules that allow a fair and 
 CM> equitible sharing of land
 CM> would be working from enlightened self-interest, since they would have a
 CM> chance to set a standard that would benefit them in 
 CM> the future under another Autocrat.

And even that, I don't think comes into play as much, at least consciously, as
just trying to be fair - especially if a person who institutes such a system has
the chance to institute something less fair that would benefit himself more in
the future (but is still reasonable enough that he can get away with it now, and
have it continue as a standard).  (OTOH, maybe I'm being a bit naive about such
folk.  I've been accused before of being overly trusting in an SCA context, but
hell, if you can't be trusting HERE, where CAN you???)

 CM> This is all IMHO. Also, I never
 CM> said anything about martyrdom. Anyone working a job anywhere in the SCA
 CM> out of a sense of martydom should't be in that job.

Right, they should be in a shrink's office!

 CM> The same is true for
 CM> anyone working for an award, be Pelican, Laurel, Knighthood, etc.

Indeed!  The most appropriate awards are the ones given when everyone EXCEPT the
recipient expects it.

 CM> Books, not bombs.

Yeah, it always seemed silly to me, to spend millions of dollars on things whose
functions necessarily involve destroying themselves....

 CM> a desire to do alot of work does not mean a capacity for it.

And some folks underestimate the work involved in a task too.
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:55:24 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <BuBrJy.816@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>Branwen mentioned a prohibition in the West on fighting while carrying
>stones, charms or herbs of virtue.

>So, Branwen, where can I get these "herbs of virtue?"  If I go on down to
>Berkeley, and buy some "herbs of virtue" in People's Park, can I bring it
>into Canada, or will the Canada Customs throw me in jail? 

Yup, I think you know which herbs of virtue aren't allowed.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:22:51 GMT

In article <mjc.716482098@NL.CS.CMU.EDU> mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:
>A couple of people have complained about the steep prices at Pennsic, and one
>has essentially suggested (though reporting rumor) that the Coopers jack the
>price up because we'll "pay anything".  I would just like to point out that
>the Coopers' mundane rate is $7.50 per night for one person and $10 per
>night for two (together).  The Pennsic rate is $4 per night until the final
>weekend, when members pay $20.50 for three nights.  A portion of that weekend
>money goes to the SCA; I don't know the numbers.  I don't know if part of the
>$4 nightly fee goes to the SCA (to pay for privies and other resources that
>the early arrivals make use of).
>
>Ellisif

My understanding (from Elaina) is that the Coopers pay for the privies
and their maintenance. At PWXX that cost was in the neighborhood of $55k.
That's a pretty hefty neighborhood to be in for two weeks. I think it's
time to dispel the idea that the Coopers go to Europe for half the year
on the money they make from Pennsic. Some people actually believe this.
It just ain't so.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:00:00 GMT

In article <92Sep15.185355.30701@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:

>      I suggest that the sex of the consort be intentionally 
>      concealed, and revealed only after victory. This would
>      constitute a direct violation of the rules of the list,
>      which would almost certainly bring about a court of
>      chivalry. I have no doubt that the findings and verdict
>      of this court would be quite unpleasant for our crusading
>      fighter and his gay companion.

The term "bad faith" comes to mind...

>     BTW, I think only "gay" persons should be permitted a
>     same-sex consort...

Determined how?  Will there be a stamp on your membership card?  Or will
your fighting authorisation carry a special notation?

Aryk Nusbacher
From: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:25:07 -0400
Organization: Auldhaefen Associates
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
	<1992Sep14.214541.1780@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
X-Newsreader: Ann 0.9

In article <1992Sep14.214541.1780@pbhya.PacBell.COM>,
	whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
-> >Set ups for hundreds of merchants, 
-> 
-> This implies that Pennsic pays the merchants for facilities they need.
-> (I understand that access is needed--but this implies something beyond
-> that.)  Does Pennsic pay for the tents the merchants use?  Why?  Isn't
-> that the merchants own problem to deal with?

	No. Pennsic doesn't pay the merchants. Each merchant has to provide
their own selling setup. Actually the merchants have to pay a goodly
registration fee in addition to the regular fees everyone pays.
 
-> >as well as a site book that contained
-> >a map of where each merchant was.  
-> 
-> We just tell 'em where the merchant area is and have somebody around
-> to settle disputes.  Just how oragnized do you guys get?

	This booklet is supposedly paid for by the merchant's registration
fee. At least that's what I've been told.

-> >as well as electricty, 
-> 
-> Hodl it!  *Pennsic* is paying the electric bill?  Why?  Isn't that
-> part of your rental agreement with the Coopers?  (And for that
-> matter--how much electricty is being used for a *Medieval*
-> re-creation, anyway?)

	Electricity is extra for those that want it. I think at PWXX
electricity was costing $4.00 per day per outlet. A rather high price if
you ask me. I don't use $4.00 a day when I'm at home.

Ciaran the blunt

"Sable, a semy of annulets argent, on a wine amphora per fess argent and Or
a goblet sable."

-- 
Internet: ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us    UUCP: ciaran@aldhfn.UUCP
Auldhaefen / World's End BBSes         216 753-8791  (v.32bis)
Auldhaefen Associates                  Email: auldhaefen@aldhfn.akron.oh.us
SCA supplies (herbs, spices, pigments) pricelist available via e-mail
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:38:30

 DA> Excellent point!  If the Society is so afraid of a 
 DA> mundane redneck getting "up
 DA> in arms" over arms with a pentacle as a charge, 
 DA> what do they think he's gonna do
 DA> when he sees someone dressed funny with a PENTACLE 
 DA> PENDANT?  Heck, I've seen
 DA> many running about with INVERTED pentagram 
 DA> pendants, rings, circlets, and so on.
First, you (generally) can't *see* a pendant from the street at, say, 
 a demo.  Jewelry designs are also *usually* not as "noticed" as banners 
 would be.  They're just not as eyecatching, generally speaking.  Plus, 
 it's easier to focus directly on the jewelry-wearer, thereby not 
 tarring the whole group with the same brush.  If I'm the "contact" 
 person, I could then deflect the person with the problem over to one 
 of my devout Christian-types, thereby showing that we're merely 
 religion-tolerant and non-religious as a group.
....
 DA>  What difference do they think it being registered 
 DA> with our CoH or not is going
 DA> to make to Joe Crossburner???
As I said a couple of messages back, the lack of official sanction 
 permits the locals to "play it by ear" in their communittee.  Even in 
 the baronial meeting where Da'ud asked for opinions, there were a 
 goodly number who were serious Christians and were uncomfortable with 
 the whole notion.  I think some of our pagans even voted against 
 registry, because they'd rather not have the public display where 
 they aren't sure of the audience reaction.  Most pagans in Dallas are 
 very quiet about the whole thing. 
     Cheers,
       Gwenllian CfM, Steppes, Ansteorra, Left Bank of the Bible Belt

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:44:25 GMT

In article <3452@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Greetings all.  Aryk asks:
>
>>	-The Ballad of Sir Patrick Spens
>>
>>Anybody know when Sir Patrick was written?
>
>Well, er, no.  It is first published in _Percy's Reliques_, 1765 and later
>for various volumes.  The number of versions, and the wide variance, by
>not much later both suggest an early origin.  Motherwell suggests an 
>historical origin at the court of Alexander III of Scotland (late 13th C),
>which is at least as plausible as most arguments for the origins of most
>ballads.  (This information and more can be found in Child.)
>
>Short answer: the song appears to be old, but the earliest words we have
>are 18th C, and late 18th at that.

Maybe someone knows when there was a king at Dumferline. The first line
of the poem reads;

The king sits in Dumferling toune,
Drinking the blude-reid wine:

I have it in a book of British and American poetry by A. Kent Hieatt and 
William Park. It's in the first chapter titled; Medieval Verse; Popular
Ballads, and is under the subheading of Popular Ballads that follows some
works by Chaucer and John Skelton. Following is a chapter entitled; The
Rennaissance: Sixteenth Century, and starts with Sir Thomas Wyatt.

In Service,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 1992 08:27:38 -0400 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: SCA 2500 C.E.

Greetings good gentles --

I turned on the tube last night to relax after a joyous but tiring
day at the hospital with Eromene and our new daughter Elizabeth.
(Yes, I know that *tired* will take on a whole new meaning with
the arrival of our first child, but...).  Anyway, while watching
the sports section of the evening TV news I had a vision of the
SCA (or its spiritual descendent) 500 years hence.

  "See the spendid tournaments of armored opponents...
   Hear the cheering of the crowds,
   Note the heraldric symbols on their helms,
   Celebrate the pagentry between bouts of ritual combat,
   The score at halftime is San Francisco 17, New York 7..."

Yes, football.

I wonder -- how far does the analogy of 

         Modern-football <==> Medieval-tourneys

hold?  In both cases you have an elite group of highly skilled
people "competing" and the rest of the population fascinated by
their competition.  Still, I'm thinking more about "mind set."
Did people in the age of tournaments _think_ about them in ways
that match up well with the way our modern society thinks of
professional football?  Would the folks who _didn't_ want to
put on shoulder pads and heavy helmets, 500 years from now,
want to play _baseball_ or _soccer_ instead, like the SCA's fencers?

Well, I'm obviously _still_ tired folks -- but perhaps you can all
have some fun ringing changes on the notion.

My best to you all -- Bertram-the-smiling-new-daddy

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Iron chicken (was Re: bunny round ...)
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:16:54 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

OK, folks, this is my first attempt to actually use news to reply
to a post, so if I botch this, my apologies in advance!

With regards to Branwen's  connection between the "iron chicken"
(ie, the hanging guard) and Radnor's screaming chicken on his shield,
I am a bit bemused...  I've been thinking for years that the term
"iron chicken" originated in An Tir.  Am I wrong in this?  Sir Cealhmain
has been calling it "iron chicken" for ages and ages, and so has Sir
Waldt, and they've left me with the impression that it didn't have anything
to do with Duke Radnor's arms.  Are we looking at some more SCA
apocrypha here?

This also leaves me somewhat amused at the nickname's which peoples'
devices engender.  For example, for a few years, I used my badge on
a heater shield, because it took no time to paint and I was in a hurry
to put something armourial on my shield in time for my very first
crown tourney in the West (that badge being in fess, three crossed
parted, fretted and couped, azure).  Sir Hilary took one look at it
and asked me why I had a tic tac toe tournament painted on my shield.
To my horror, it stuck, and people still hassle me about to this day...
I repainted that shield so fast!

Twcs (still bemused)   ;->
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 21:07:10 GMT
Reply-To: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)

In article <1992Sep15.185124.29388@socrates.umd.edu>, sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes: 
|> The Rialto is very very very different from the SCA.  There is a great deal
|> of similarity in terms of people and topics of discussion.  But there is no
|> way to use the Rialto to make any sort of appraisal of the SCA.  The "feel"
|> is entirely different ("feel" being a highly technical term used by someone
|> who doesn't want to go on at great length).
|> 
|> Richard					Jeff Sussman
|> Storvik					Silver Spring

Greetings from Euriol of Lothian:

I must wholy agree with the above. When I first started in the SCA I was
talking to then King Jade about something I had read here on Rialto (this
was during his first reign with Shaheena). He was quite surprised that I
was reading the Rialto since it is so "politically" oriented and he gave
me the impression that he hoped the Rialto didn't influence my reaction
to much about the SCA as a whole. This conversation was about 2 1/2 years
ago, so I am unable to remember it word to word.

In service,

Euriol
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:28:52 GMT


Aryk suggests that the Pennsic Autocrat be salaried.

Corun MacAnndra says no, citing all sorts of possible problems:

  If that happens we could be in big trouble. Where does the money come from?
  If from volunteers, then we open up the War to more graft than the federal
  government. Also, how does paying a member conflict with the Society's
  non profit status with the IRA? I don't know the answer to that.

Hmm, lovely slip, that.  IRA.  There is no problem with the SCA hiring
members, and paying them salaries.  A non-profit just can't take it's
leftover money, and distribute it to it's owners.  Not a problem. The
SCA already has a payroll, and several employees.

The money would come from the same place the money for other expenses come
from, the event fee.  I understand that Pennsic already has a 6 figure
budget, and a large bank balance for cash flow, separate from that of
other territorial groups.  The mechanism of paying the autocrat, and the
source of the money, would be easy.  That's not a problem.

Some folks complain that Pennsic is already to expensive.  Hah!  I paid
more for food for the week (if you include alcohol).  I paid more than
a week's worth of Pennsic *each night* I stayed in a motel on the way.
One tank of gas is 3/4 of what Pennsic cost me.  If the cost of Pennsic
at the gate is too much, you just plain can't afford to go!

I am not at all certain that we need to worry about salaried autocrat's
however.  Pennsic couldn't afford to pay the autocrat more than 10 or 20
thousand dollars, if we really went all the way out on a limb.  And, while
that's a good amount of money, it's not enough to cheat, rob or steal for.
And, that's the *most* we could afford to pay.  For 5,000 dollars, I'd
rather flip burgers than take the guff an autocrat takes from an ungrateful
populace.

So, Aryk, while I admit that a Pennsic Autocrat is working pretty hard, and
deserves something, can you tell me how 5 or 10 thousand bucks is going to
get the SCA a better class of autocrat?  Or make a better autocrat out of
an average one?  Will that pittance (which is all we can afford, easily)
really widen the pool of applicants?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Financial reporting
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:01:45 GMT

In a post last week, I said that no kingdom has any financial reporting
requirements.  This is based on information I had from the Steward, as
of May, 1991.  I am corrected in this statement by Fionna nic Alisdair,
who hails from Calontir.  She quotes to me Law IX-804 from Calontir, which
requires reporting both in person and in the kingdom newsletter.

It comes as no surprise that I think financial reporting is very important
indeed.  I am impressed that Calontir has such a requirement.  This leaves
me to wonder why the rest of the kingdoms don't...

Aryk Nusbacher
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:38:19 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Aryk and Richard have been debating armoring marshals.  I'm not a fighter, 
so I'm kind of talking through my hat, but I would have guessed that the 
main problem with armoring marshals was neither screwing up identification 
nor keeping them to busy blocking stray blows, but reducing their field of 
vision.  They're out there to see and act on potentially dangerous stuff, 
yes?  I'd think that peripheral vision would be important?  Marshals?

Cheers,

-- Angharad
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca