From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Stereotypes of Soviet Peoples
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:34:06 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <Sorokin.40.726067397@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at> Sorokin@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at (Sorokin Zhenya) writes:

> Still, I can imagine peaceful coexistence of estonians and russians in 
> _democratic_ Russia as well as in democratic Estonia. 

I can envision peaceful coexistence among peoples and nations
of all types. War is a continuation of diplomacy by other means
and is not the natural state of humans. It is an aberration.


> The problem is, that the difference in the life order in islamic and 
> in christian societies is so high, that the peoples assimilate very poorly. 
> Examples are Lebanon, Turks in Germany, and others. There are no examples 
> of the two cultures living together in some mixed state. One of the cultures 
> have to be dominant and define the life order of the whole state, the 
> second being a cultural/ethnic minority. They are simply incompatible, 
> which doesn't mean that one is by definition superior.

Yes, there are differences in Islamic and Christian societies. Most of
the differences are due simply to some being still traditional
societies and the others developed. Your statements play into
the hands of the so-called Islamic fundamentalists. There are 
enough reasons to believe that some of this is simply the
result of priests trying to regain their lost powers. The priests
in the West were, shall we say, encouraged to stop dabbling in
science, economics and government some centuries ago. It still
has not happened totally in all predominantly Islamic countries.
One day it will happen. 

And it usually turns out that one culture is dominant in almost
every country. Religion is only one aspect of culture. The really
operative word here is nationalism. Kurds in Iraq and Turkey
are also Muslim, and it hasn't stopped them from trying to
form their own state. The Muslims in Afghanistan are now
fighting among themselves. Being Christian did not stop
the Slovaks, Croations, Slovenes, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians,
Georgians, Armenians from trying to be completely independent.
Being Christian and Slavic does not seem to matter much to
the Ukranians either. And if we look to history, the plight
of the Jews in Europe over centuries was not exactly 
heartening either. Complete multi-cultural, multi-lingual,
multi-religious, and multi-ethnic societies where complete
equality reigns still seems to be some way off but to
see the Chechen desire for independence as purely religious
is trivializing the matter. They have a rather long history
of fighting desperately for their independence.


> So, current situation of Chechnya having *open boreders* with Russia cann't 
> last for long. Either Chechnya will lose its independency and adopt life 
> order of democratic Russia, or it will turn out to be a completely 
> independent state with normal borders. In current situation only mafiosy 
> from both countries make their profits. 

Yes. What happens depends mostly on Russia since the chances of
Chechens really fighting a war and winning is probably zero.


> The only problem is, that all borders in Northern Caucasus are purely hand-
> drawn (and re-drawn) so that every meter is subject to conflict. This refers 
> also to some other borders.
> To my mind Russia bears a heavy responsibility of creating a 
> new *peaceful* order in the whole ex-Empire...ex-USSR. This responsibility 
> is also recongnized internationally. Up to now Russia did it _very_ poorly. 
> However, this is a separate big topic for this forum.


Yes. The world (and the peoples of CIS) are still watching and
waiting. Let's hope for the best. Russia and Russians have to
take the lead since it (and they) are really the only ones
capable of creating this order. If Russia doesn't want the
break up of the CIS, all the other nations are incapable of
fighting a war and winning. It all depends on Russia.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet