From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Have no need to fear ... was Re: Freedom of Speech
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 23:39:04 GMT

In article <KYTAN.92Oct6110734@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com>
kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.194606.14293@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>I fail to see how I have shoved my concept of "rightness" down any
>>people's throats by posting on USENET.  I have consistently said that
>>I believe in the Bill of Rights and, specifically, in freedom of speech.
>...
>Speech/writing which advocates the suppression of anything is the first step
>towards physical acts of suppression.

There are 3 points that I wish to address.  The first one is the above
statement by Mr. Tan; he accuses me of adocating suppression.

I have never advocated suppression.  A person should be free to do whatever
she wishes as long as what she does does not infringe on another person's
rights.  I have consistently voiced support for the Bill of Rights and
the notions expressed by that document.  It is entirely consistent with the
2nd statement in this paragraph.

Again, I support the eradication of the Chinese language by means that
are consistent with the Bill of Rights.  The "means" are the
mechanisms, in the United States, that have resulted in Nth-generation
Asian-Americans losing their grasp of an Asian language with each succeeding
value of N.  Where N is large, the vast majority speak no Asian language.

My position is that I favor this effect, the loss of language ability,
for 1 particular Asian language:  the Chinese-cu language.  At no point
have any Asian-Americans been denied the right to speak the Chinese-cu
language; _no_ suppression has occurred.  Yet, few Nth-generation
Asian-Americans speak Chinese, where N is large.

I am absolutely befuddled as to why Mr. Tan is incapable of understanding
this proposition.  It does not advocate suppression or anything that
is inconsistent with the Bill of Rights but does advocate the eradication
of the Chinese-cu language.


>...
>I am not attempting
>to censor your views nor am I claiming that you are depriving me of my rights

Funny.  The previous article by Mr. Tan says just the opposite.  Here
is Mr. Tan's statement:

   In article <KYTAN.92Sep29122228@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com>
   >kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan) wrote:
   You seem to want to shove your concept of "rightness" down
   other peoples throats, thus depriving others of this "right."

Again, Mr. Tan's original statement indicates that he has little idea about
the difference between speech/writing and the physical act of depriving a
person of her rights.

When the Chinese-cu gov't on Taiwan imprisons someone because she says
something that the gov't doesn't like, the imprisonment is depriving
a person of her rights.  However, when Martin Luther King said something
that Mr. Tan doesn't like, Mr. King's speech does not, in any way, deprive
Mr. Tan of his rights.

>(you haven't, YET.) What I AM saying is that your written drivel will LEAD
>to the deprivation of the rights of the Chinese-cu.

I just "love" this last sentence.  First, Chinese-cu people are apt to
make comments like this; Mr. Tan's comments are typical of comments made
by Chinese-cu people.  It's _very_ important to remember this when we
assess the relative merit, or lack thereof, of Chinese-cu culture.

Essentially, what Mr. Tan is saying is the following.  I'll present two
examples.

First, in the '60s, Martin Luther King preached against and condemned
racism; his actions constituted speech.  Suppose that some hotheads then
interpreted Mr. King's speech and subsequently killed some racist
Americans.  By Mr. Tan's reasoning, Mr. King is now responsible for the
actions of the hotheads.

I strongly disagree.  The hotheads are responsible for their actions,
and no one else should be held accountable.

Second, in the 90s, a rock band distributed musical lyrics that called
for the use of violence.  Some teenagers listened to the lyrics and
subsequently committed violence.  The parents of the teenagers sued the
rock band and held it accountable for the teenager's actions.  By Mr.
Tan's reasoning, the rock band is now responsible for the action's
of the teenagers.

I strongly disagree.  The teenagers are responsible for their actions,
and no one else should be held accountable.

                           --------------------

Mr. Tan, like many Chinese-cu people, has a uniquely non-Western view
of civics, rights, and accountability of people's actions.  The central
theme among Chinese-cu people is, "I believe in freedom of speech
as long as I am not offended by what you say."  This belief manifests
itself in many ways--e-mail harrassment, accusations of "you are suppressing
my rights by your very speech" (!), personal attacks, etc.

>...
>However, if I were to bring up my children here [in the USA], I would make
>sure that they are efficiently bilingual [in the Chinese-cu language].
>

In many Chinese-cu families, when the children--especially the eldest
child--object to conforming to the Chinese-cu way, like for example
learning the Chinese-cu language, the Chinese-cu parents often respond
that they will "make sure" that learning the Chinese-cu language will
take place.  "Make sure" translates to a gamut of negative reinforcement
ranging from verbal abuse to outright physical beatings.

I wonder how Mr. Tan will "make sure" that his daughter is bilingual
if she absolutely refuses to learn the Chinese-cu language.  I wonder....

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