HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: CHTORR!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:38:11 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Dec17.042930.17160@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>We learn a lot about the Chtorran ecology, and there is next to
>no plot advancement.

But...all the books so far have been like that.  <grin>

btw, I agree with you re: the worm fur.  I have also been toying
with the idea that the Chtorran ecology isn't alien at all.  It's
perfectly suited for Earth, as Gerrold has pointed out more than
once, to the point where the worm fur can live on humans and
interact with their brains.  And (if we buy what the Red Book
says) the puffballs were discovered quite some time before the
plagues...but looked like Earth plants.  Hm.

I cannot come up with a rationale for how it could have happened,
unfortunately.  Sigh.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: robbins@titan.ucc.umass.edu (RUSS E ROBBINS)
Subject: Re: Friedman opinions??
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:55:31 GMT

In article <13DEC92.15135888@wums.wustl.edu> w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu writes:
>I'd be interested to hear other's opinion of C.S.Friedman.
>
>I found _In Conquest Born_ to be a little boring (maybe
>just too drawn out), but I really liked _The Madness Season_.
>
>I've just seen there's a new novel out - _Black Sun Rising_,
>or something like that.  Opinions, anyone??
>
>
>JC
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>Jim Cook
>W95_COOK@wums.wustl.edu
>
>_______________________________________________________________

    I heard really good things about In Conquest Born, so I bought it.
It was alright but yes was longer and more drawn out then I felt it
should have been.  In other words I thought it was kind of over-rated.
    However I liked it enough and felt if people thought it was so good,
I'd buy the Madness Season.  I thought it was a great book and very well
thought out.
    I've bought Black Sun rising but haven't started it yet.  I have a
question for anyone who has read it, is it a stand alone book or the start
of a series?  It looks like a stand alone book but I thought I read when it
first came out in HC that it was the first in a series.  Thanks for the
info.
   By the way this is a friends account so send all email replies to the
address below.  Thanks!!

			Shane L. Bell
			bell@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Silverberg's "Face of the Waters"
Date: 17 Dec 1992 17:32:34 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <9212171646.AA08189@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>  
marotta@hannah.enet.DEC.COM ("Hurt not the Earth, neither the sea,  
nor the trees.   17-Dec-1992 1046", Revelations 7:3) writes:
> Robert Silverberg's  "Face  of  the Waters" is perhaps the very  
best science
> fiction  book  I  have ever read. I have not seen much of  
Silverberg's work,
> just  "Lord  Valentine's Castle." I was not expecting too much from  
this new
> book.  Needless  to  say,  my  delight  in  finding  such artistic  
depth and
> complexity  in  a  science fiction novel is compounded by the fact  
that such
> high standards are so rare in the science fiction arena.

Silverberg is a very good writer, and Face of the Waters was a
good book, though not, I think, a great one. I think it what kept
it from being great was the last 30 or so pages, which was a bit
of a let down. It felt like Silverberg had this great idea for
setting, plot, and characters, but couldn't figure out a good way
to end it all.

> 
> If you  have  read  a lot of "literature," you really must read  
"Face of the
> Waters."   This  is  Silverberg's  answer  to  Dante's  "Inferno,"   
Milton's
> "Paradise  Lost," and all those other masterpieces that treat the  
subject of
> man's  search  for God. The science fiction setting puts this novel  
squarely
> into  the  world  of modern fiction, but it contains the elements  
of classic
> fiction: metaphor, introspection, unseen and immutable forces, and  
the power
> of the will of the individual.
> 

Unfortunately, while the quest itself is very good, "god" is not 
very well done.  I must admit, though, that some of this reaction 
may just be that I didn't like his solution, and was disgusted
by what the characters wound up doing.

Silverberg's career has gone through at least three distinct phases.  
In the 50s and early 60s, he was a slightly better than average pulp 
writer.  In the mid-sixties until the mid-seventies, he was a major 
literary force, one of the handful of the best the genre has 
produced.  This was the period of Thorns, Dying Inside, Downward 
to the Earth, Tower of Glass, The Book of Skulls, A Time of Changes, 
"Born with the Dead," and other incredible stories.  This period, 
Silverberg's best, ended when he retired from SF, disgusted that 
drek was earning more than the good stuff (and ignoring that this 
happens in the mainstream also).  He came back with Valentine's 
Castle, to start a period that was also very good, though, with 
exceptions like Face of the Waters, somewhat more commercial
than the previous period.  

I would recommend almost any book from Silverberg's middle
period, and most books from his latter period.


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: stuartf@sequent.com (Stuart Friedberg)
Subject: Re: Macavoy
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 07:33:41 GMT

In article <9212161036.AA01294@rutgers.edu> BECKS@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Sara Beck) writes:
>This is an unabashed rave for R.A. Macavoy and the "Lens of the World"
> [...]
>much of what happens is ambigous and unexplained.

Rave! Rave! Enthuse!

I'll say!  The major protagonist has had the dubious honor of being
trained rigorously in the experimental and empirical arts by a
genius polymath, and the training took.  He is, in fact, a lensgrinder
among many other things (although he mistook a telescope for a
cannon on his first encounter).  There's only one thing in the
entire first volume that could be clearly called supernatural and
it is easily explained as a hallucination brought on by a massive
concussion and subsequent lack of care.  A werewolf and a dragon
are heralded, but turn out to be rather more curious (and ambiguous)
creatures than that!

I find both available volumes to be extremely thought-provoking without
being the least bit experimental, pretentious, or boring.  Definitely
in the "literature" class, not in the "wizards-and-widgets" class.  I
am eagerly awaiting the conclusion, which will probably be as ambigous
as all the rest.

Stu Friedberg (stuartf@sequent.com)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Looking for bibliographic references to Childe/Dorsai series
Summary: Looking for additional references to add to my collection
Keywords: SF, Childe Cycle, Dorsai, Gordon R. Dickson
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:36:19 GMT

Hello.  Thru the past years I have sought to accumulate a series of
references to articles, short stories, etc. concerning G. R. Dickson's
Childe Cycle.  Here is what I have to date.  What I would appreciate is
any other information there might be.  For instance, surely there have
been reviews and analysis of the series.  Perhaps there have been short
stories written in the same universe.  At the very least, I would like
to find any biographical articles on Dickson.  Thank you for any info
you might be able to contribute - even if only pointers elsewhere on the
net for more information.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GORDON R. DICKSON

Dorsai (published order)

In order of writing;

"Dorsai!"	
"Lost Dorsai"
"Necromancer"
Galaxy magazine - October, 1964 - "Soldier, Ask Not" *
"Soldier, Ask Not"
"The Spirit of Dorsai"
"Tactics of Mistake"
"The Final Encyclopaedia"
"The Dorsai Companion"
"Chantry Guild"
"Young Blyss"

In chronological order;

"Necromancer"
"Tactics of Mistake"
"Lost Dorsai"
"Dorsai!"
Galaxy magazine - October, 1964 - "Soldier, Ask Not" *
"Soldier, Ask Not"	(middle of "Dorsai!")
"Young Blyss"		lwv 
"The Final Encyclopaedia"
"The Spirit of Dorsai"	(middle of TFE)
"Chantry Guild"
"The Dorsai Companion"

Original trilogy;

"Tactics of Mistake"
"Soldier, Ask Not"
"Dorsai!"

-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
From: gerrit@laosinh.stgt.sub.org (Gerrit Heitsch)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Perry Rhodan
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:55:10 MET
Distribution: world
Organization: Lao-Sinh project (private UUCP site)

In article <1992Dec10.083146.10175@bernina.ethz.ch>, Philipp Keller writes:

> Don't do it. This is really one of the most disgusting Science Fiction
> series that exists. I read a few when I was young and innocent but
> it is really nothing better than trash in the same league as
> 'Battlefield Earth' etc by L.Ron Hubbard. It's also faschistoid crap
> an has about the moral and literally value of the worst 1920's pulp.
Are you sure, that you read more than one ore two booklets of PR?
The things, that you wrote above may have been true for _some_ of the
first 300 booklets, but not for the entire series.
To be able to judge the series you should read a _minimum_ of one
cycle (50 or 100 booklets), less would be unsufficent to give you
a good overlook. The current number is 1633, that makes a total number 
of more than 97980 pages. So how can you think, that you can judge the 
series after reading less than 3000 pages?

I'm a fan of the series since 1987 and have read up to now 1-500, 700-792, 
1000-1037 and 1250-1633 and can _absolutely_ not share your opinion.
Don't forget, the first booklet was written in 1961, in the Cold War.
The way the series was/is written has changed with the times.

Please be more specific, why you think, that PR is faschistoid crap.

> If you try to learn german with Perry Rhodan you will probably
> arrested when you open your mouth in Germany and thrown in a hospital for
> the mentally deranged.
That's another problem. I don't think too, that it is possible to learn
german with PR, but you won't be arrested if you try it...

> In fact there are no good science fiction books by any german author
> that I know of. It seems to be impossible for a german speaking person
> to write science fiction. Those books that are written are either on
> the niveau of Perry Rhodan or are books that are so preachy and depressing
> that it is even funnier to watch a Fassbinder movie or to cut oneselve a
> finger off.
Whats your definition of a good SF book?

Read You
 Gerrit

-- 
         Gerrit Heitsch  Moenchweg 16  7038 Holzgerlingen  Germany
  Logical adresses: UUCP: gerrit@laosinh.stgt.sub.org FIDO: (2:2407/106.9)
If we will ever be visited by Aliens, it will be very hard to explain, why a
 lifeform, that is intelligent enough to build atomic weapons can be stupid
   enough to do it. (taken from GEO special about space, page 88-91)
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: good book for Christmas present
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:57:49 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <BzEDn8.BAs@wm.estec.esa.nl> pisherwo@wm.estec.esa.nl writes:
>My reccomendations would be:
>
>Orbitsville            :  Bob Shaw
>The Ragged Astronauts  :  Bob Shaw
>Inherit the Stars      :  James P Hogan
>
>
>'The Ragged Atsronauts' is one of the best books I have read
>in years.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Kindest Regards,
>
>Phil Isherwood

Try Stanley G. Weinbaum--he's from before Heinlein, Asimov, etc., and is
a lot of fun to read even though his science is completely outdated.

Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email  (170K)
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

They got the library at Alexandria--they're not getting mine
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16332 soc.history:10218
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history
Subject: Re: Civil War Alternate Histories
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:48:41 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <D2150056.ladc96@erics.infoserv.com> erics@infoserv.com writes:
>aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley) writes:        
>
[stuff deleted because it isn't what I'm answering]

>>The South might have waited Lincoln out and for a long time after-
>>wards -- even conceivably to the present-- we might have had
>>a Union with slavery surviving.  (It was the view of many on
>>both the pro- and anti-slavery side that slavery would be
>>"in the course of extinction" if it was not allowed to expand
>>into new territories; but I'm not at all sure this would have
>>turned out correct.)
>             
>I very much doubt that slavery would have continued to this day.
>The slave-based agricultural economy of the South was not compatible
>with industrialization, and this country was bound to industrialize.
>Unless the South could have figured out how to change their plantation
>economy to a slave-based industrial one, then either slavery had to
>be ended (by force or mutual agreement), or the South had to go its
>separate way. And I doubt the North would have stood for the South's
>industrializing on a slavery base. If pro-slavery forces lost the
>battle for expansion into new territories, and therefore their balance
>in Congress, slavery as an institution was doomed.

I've heard arguments that slavery for agriculture became uneconomical--
I've never heard any sort of reason why keeping slaves as personal
servants is uneconomical, but it's obvious that such slavery doesn't
exist in industrialized countries (except for some scams involving
illegal immigrants). Any theories about why?

Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email  (170K)
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

If work were so wonderful, the rich would keep it all for themselves
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull)
Subject: Re: Why Heinlein's folk want babies
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:25:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers) writes:

>In article <1992Dec15.052539.19090@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>Here we have a classic failure of vision. Ask yourself this, if you're the
>product of a totally advanced civilisation that can afford the massive 
>and sundry investments, and is possessed of the willpower, to "colonize"
>planets, then why the hell do you have to wait *nine* months for your
>'workers' to emerge. I'm sure vatgrown would be faster, cheper and altogether
>cleaner. Not to mention the greater social control allowed.

You're making the assumption that 'society' is some sort of single unit
(that's Citizen Society over there with the fat checkbook). Certainly
most of Heinlein's colonies were settled by people trying to get away
from 'society' as they saw it. This seems to be one of about three standard
reasons for colonies (the others being getting rid of unpleasant people
that you for some reason can't kill, and making lots of money).
For any of the three reasons, whoever's in charge is probably watching their
budget, either to maximize profit or minimize the total cost.

>In fact, if you're that advanced, why will you actually *need* human workers
>in vast numbers?

The people with all of the automated this-that-and-the-other are fat, happy,
and NOT interested in colonies. People going to colonies are getting away
from something, looking for something, or sitting in the hold wishing they
hadn't been caught.

	Robert

(WOW! My first Heinlein flame war)
-- 
Robert K. Shull, Sr. Applications Programmer, Engineering Computer Network
rob@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
Disclaimer: OU can't afford opinions, so these must be mine.
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: New Ace SF Specials (was Re: Literary SF)
Keywords: Literary SF
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:03:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Dec20.173451.4864@eff.org> write@eff.org (Glen Cox) writes:

>After Terry died, a few that he had bought and had been working on were
>released:

>   Jack McDevitt, THE HERCULES TEXT
>   Claudia O'Keefe, (Something about Ice)
>   Loren McGregor, THE NET
>   Michael Kandel, STRANGE INVASIONS

>These books were edited by Damon Knight, I believe.

A bit confused here.  Jack McDevitt's THE HERCULES TEXT, Loren McGregor's
THE NET, and Richard Kadrey's METROPHAGE were all bought & edited by Terry.
Claudia O'Keefe's BLACK SNOW DAYS was bought by Terry and edited by Damon.
And the last book in the series, Gregory Feeley's THE OXYGEN BARONS, was
bought _and_ edited by Damon.

Michael Kandel's STRANGE INVASIONS was never part of the Specials; it was
a Bantam paperback original.  If your brains malfunctions the way mine
chronically does, you mixed up Kadrey and Kandel.
-- 
Patrick Nielsen Hayden      :     senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com : CIS 72701,1344 : GEnie PNH : opinions mine
From: edgar@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Gerald Edgar)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Date: 12 Dec 1992 09:07:34 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.
NNTP-Posting-Host: function.mps.ohio-state.edu
Keywords: Literary SF

In article <guay.724099614@sfu.ca> guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>Hi; 
>
>Can anyone recommend any literary SF books/authors? IE: stuff that isn't     
>mainstream commercial SF.


_Riddley Walker_, by Russel Hoban.
-- 
  Gerald A. Edgar                Internet:  edgar@mps.ohio-state.edu
  Department of Mathematics      Bitnet:    EDGAR@OHSTPY
  The Ohio State University      telephone: 614-292-0395 (Office)
  Columbus, OH 43210             -292-4975 (Math. Dept.) -292-1479 (Dept. Fax)
From: speterse%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Keywords: Literary SF
Date: 20 Dec 92 00:39:03 GMT
Organization: The Erland Cult (Ray Shea Fan Club Division)

In article <1h02nrINNnlt@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>In article <4325@novavax.UUCP> mitch@cfraix.cfr.usf.edu (Mitch Silverman) writes:
>|In article <1gime7INNrnp@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>|>_Palimpsest_ is the worst sf novel I have ever read, by at least two
>|>orders of magnitude.....

>|You know, I think that was the first of the New Ace Science Fiction
>|Specials that I read.  I kinda liked it.

>Whatever happened to them Ace Specials, anyhow?  Did they just sort of
>disappear, after Terry Carr passed away?  I can only think of three in the
>"New" series: _The Wild Shore_, the unmentionable above, _Neuromancer_, and
>_Green Eyes_; and I haven't seen a new one in a while.

There were a few others.  Off the top of my head, there were Richard 
Kadrey's *Metrophage*, which people I don't think are idiots like, but 
which I thought was little more than cyberpunk-by-numbers, *In the
Drift* by Michael Swanwick (a fix up novel, of which I've read one or
two of the component parts--too long ago to have an opinion), and *Them
Bones* by Waldrop, which I also haven't read.

I did read *Palimpsests*, and while I didn't think it was successful (the
classic rookie mistake of trying to do everything at once in the first 
novel), it certainly wasn't the worst sf novel I ever read (that honor
goes to Van Vogt's *The Anarchistic Colossus*) by a fairly long shot.

I was rather disappointed by it, but only because Scholz had written
some absolutely first rate shorter fiction.

--
    "From your signature it is obvious that you are a homosexual"
soren f petersen           :        i AM NOT          :    --Doc
speterse@peruvian.utah.edu :  THE university OF utah  :
"How could I dance with another/When I saw him standing there"  --Tiffany
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jfl@panix.com (Jeff Lipton)
Subject: Re: Help!CharlesdeLint stuff.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:34:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC


I second the call for reissues of DeLint's books. I was lent a
copy of _Moonheart_ several years back by a kind med school librarian,
and loved it. Unfortunately, I didn't think to buy my own copy. I have
most of what has come out since, though I've yet to read _The_Little_Country
(sitting on my shelf here...). I find him one of the most interesting authors
writing now. The only one in the same class, in my opinion, is Robert
Holdstock, author of _Mythago_Wood_ and _Lavondyss_.

If anyone has a spare copy of Moonheart....

 - Jeff
-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeffrey F. Lipton, M.D. (jfl@panix.com) |   (212)-982-1219 (home)          |
| 353 E. 17th, #19-E  NY, NY 10003        | "Disobedience was Man's First    |
+------------------------------------------------ Virtue" (Oscar Wilde) -----+
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)
Subject: Re: How to beat AGRIPPA (was Re: Gibson, electronic books)
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:41:35 GMT

Is it just me, or does the title of this thread suggest a video game.

In article <1992Dec16.174446.26896@maths.tcd.ie> mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike  
Rogers) writes:
> In article <Bz9I1F.GIM@acsu.buffalo.edu>, cri@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mr. PlEaSanT)  
wrote:
> >	What a coincedence, your friend is William Gibson.
> >Gibson suggested doing this himself in a number of interviews.  He also  
stated
> >(this is second hand info so don't quote me) that he hopes someone hacks it
> >and sends it net-ward.  so go ahead and enjoy.
> 
> [...] I think that there's something kind of humorous and ironic
> about the entire Agrippa thing.

Either Gibson is a master of Zen and possessor of ultimate Slack, or an utter  
egomaniac staging a publicity stunt.  Kesey or Capote.  I'm not sure which.

--
Frank Mitchell,	Business Systems Analyst, First National Bank of Chicago
email:frank@fnbc.com (NeXTmail)

"A sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-- me, I think (twisting Clarke's Law, of course)
From: O1DSH@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (David Heck)
Subject: Re: Two Glen Cooks?
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:59:41 GMT

They are both One and the same...Glen wrote all of them, although his
output has slowed considerably...
 
David
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  Forward to Foundation (Asimov) will it be released?
Date: 12 Dec 1992 23:25:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


I think I've seen it mentioned (I believe in the book THE GREAT
MAMBO CHICKEN AND THE TRANSHUMAN CONDITION) that Robert Heinlein
was offered cryogenic freezing by one of the firms offering it,
but declined, much to their disappointment (they were hoping for
good publicity).  I don't know whether Heinlein lacked faith in
their methods and didn't want to bother, or whether he objected
on principle to the idea of being brought back...

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Cleveland Free-Net Science Fiction
& Fantasy SIG (aa396)
From: chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Writers Of The Future contest
Date: 12 Dec 1992 16:14:18 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

Is this still on? I picked up a copy of the 1984 _WotF_ book, and found
some familiar names. Karen Jay Fowler and
Nina K. Hoffman, for example. Any others that have gone on to SF
fame and fortune after entering these contests?

Chua
+==+