HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:28:41 GMT
	<12421@inews.intel.com> <1992Jul23.112747.26037@linus.mitre.org>

In article <1992Jul23.112747.26037@linus.mitre.org> 
heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>Agreed, rape is a crime that deserves the full sanction of the law.
>However, are you saying that the threat of rape would stop anyone from
>getting organized and voting?

Yeah, I think it does. I don't really know. Let's face it, I can go anywhere
I want whenever I want by myself. Sure, I've gotten into some situations that
I was lucky to get out of without serious injury, at least nothing a few
stitches wouldn't heal. But I've never really had to worry about rape. Think
about it, I'm sure it's not real pleasant for a man either. And think about
if you got rapped and everyone found out about it. Brings new meaning to the
words dissed and based. But now I live in the suburbs, there's hardly any 
crime here ... for me. But there still is for women. I think if I was a women, 
I'd always be looking back over my shoulder and being careful about elavators 
and stairwells and parking lots at night. To tell you the truth, if I were a 
woman, I'd have a conceiled gun on me at all times - but then I'm a man. Guns
are dangerous, could just as easily shoot yourself, depends on the ratio of
physical strength. That ratio is not so good when you're talking the average
woman versus the average man. So probably the only solution is to forget the
gun and instead always watch your back, like a gangstar or criminal and play 
your cards right and hope someone doesn't call your bluff. And hope you're 
always wearing the right colors and got the right signs. And always watch the 
eyes, but don't make eye contact. And watch out for those invisible boundaries 
you're not supposed to cross, check out the real estate.

>I agree, I also have no right to things gained unfairly.  However, I
>sense a tendency to label any successful Straight White Male a member
>of the old boy network, or a recipient of things gained unfairly. 

In a sense, this is equality, or at least bringing everyone down to the
same level. You see, any minority has to deal with accusations of quota
fullfilling all the time. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing that little
feature of our society go away, ... for all though.

>I'm glad I have sisters who point out things to me also.

Yeah, when it gets right down to it, they are pretty cool.

>, but I believe that there are lots of honest men out there
>who achieve what they do on their own merits.

I'll go for that, but there are a lot of crooks, like those who got theirs
out of the S&L ripoff and most of our representatives. They make bad names
for all human beings, and it's not gonna be easy gettin' rid of them because
they really do have the power and the money, and we have the bill.
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:32:42 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
: 
: There are paleolithic, pre-literal, tribes surviving to this day. There
: may still be a few tribes in Amazonia that have avoided contact with us
: moderns, thus still undiscovered by us. There are tribes in Amazonia that
: have only been seen a few times and thus are known to exist, but nothing
: else is known of them. There are also many cultures that have retained the 
: ancient beliefs. We call these people hunter-gatherers or stone-age or tribal 
: people. They have many stories to tell, if anyone cares to listen. From
: these people, we have learned a great deal about paleolithic people, something
: we would know almost nothing about if all we had to rely on was archeological
: evidence. Unfortunately, it is not clear for how much longer we will allow 
: these people to continue their ancient traditions.

Unfortunately, we also do not know either how ancient their beliefs are, or
what relationship (if any) they might have to the extinct ancient religions.

It tells us a bit about what such societies may have believed or practiced,
but that is all.

Bill
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:32:24 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <JV6BoB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T.
Murphy) writes:
>billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>> : I third the motion...  And think that there are enough wiccans present to >> : (Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the 

>> Heh, Heh! Shows how it is easy to come to what is probably an incorrect
>> conclusion based on insufficient information. 
>> I personally suspect that the "Starhawk Wiccan" type people are far and
>> few between here.

>well, i love starhawk.  i find her ideas interesting and very much enjoy 
>her work, and would love to meet and do a ritual with her sometime.  but 
>i wouldn't read or post to *.wicca.  why?  i'm not a wiccan.  i AM, 
>however, a pagan, so i will stick right here.

A general comment here is in order...

When I said "StarHawk Wiccan" I was NOT refering SPECIFICALLY to followers of
StarHawk's Brand of Wiccan teachings.  It was an off-the-cuff remark intended
to get a concept across.  I think it succeeded, but I do not wish to see this
turn into a listing of those who follow StarHawk and those that don't.  Just
my Humble Opnion...

(And for the record, I think she has a lot of good stuff to teach, but has to
get over some problems of her own - they rub off into her books, not always
subtely...  IMHO, again!)

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Monothiesm in pagan cultures (was: >suggestion<)
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:08:54 GMT
Organization: FERMILAB
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul22.025723.908@ddsw1.mcs.com>, eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com 
(Eshin-Fun) writes:
>>>  To refuse to recognize this
> : possibility is to ignore the contribution of a significant section of the
> : populace, and thjus present a false picture of our past.<<
> 
> 
> And what are you doing? 

I am using several sources, monothiest and pagan alike to get as complete a
picture as possible.

> If you or anyone else cannot accept the "challenge" then fine. No one is

You confuse the concepts "can not" and "will not."

> asking you or anyone else to personally accept it. But by the same token you
> and anyone else should have the decorum to keep your mouth shut.

Very few people have the right to expect me to "keep my mouth shut" on an issue
raised in open forum, which alt.pagan is.  You are not one of them.

> No one is refusing any one's right to choose. An appeal is made to *those
> interested* for an effort. If you or any one else is not "interested", since
> we can't see you anyway, why bother to give us your opinion? Is recognition
> so important to you?  

Agree with you or be silent?  Try again?  You make a suggestion in an open
forum.  I feel that it is an ill advised one, and so state in that self-same
forum in response.  I am clearly not alone in this belief.  This is called open
discussion.  If you cannot handle the concept of people publicly disagreeing
with you, perhaps it is you who should limit your output.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: dwlogsdon@vax1.umkc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: JANIS IS RIGHT!
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:42:27 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

Okay, I'll admit it: I'm one of those people who supported Janis through the
E-MAIL, but didn't publicly post anything!

I just returned to the net, after a few days, to find LOTS of people (nearly,
 if not ALL male) blasting her rather intensely.

So here goes:

JANIS IS RIGHT!

I'm a happily heterosexual male, and wish I could say she's wrong about men in
general in our society, but:

JANIS IS RIGHT!

In fact, the only thing she might have been wrong about was the degree to which
the men in the Pagan community are exceptions to this! So, one more time:

JANIS IS RIGHT!
'nuff said!
                                        DAVE
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:14:37 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
: > 
: > You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
: > to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
: > thing went out 2000 years ago.
: > 
: your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
: they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
: completely different thing.

Heh, heh. Right Ailsa. Tell me what would happen if I walked, by myself, into
a bar in an inner city slum anywhere in the US. Do you think I could just,
walk in, join the people at the bar, order a drink and (when done) walk out?
No chance - I would be lucky to get out alive.

This is not "defending against racism" - it is the overt practice of racism.
The only difference is, I can understand why it occurs - after all the
repression that many minority groups have been subjected to in the past,
and are still subjected to (to varying extents) today.

But, just because there may be some justification, that does not make any
such practice right.

Bill
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:25:45 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <1992Jul21.101826.41775@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans
> >How about "Bell Book and Candle."  It has a kind of fanciful view of
> >witches as immortals who cannot cry.  It also is little mermaidish.  A
> >witch gives up her powers for the love of a mortal, played by Jimmy
> >Stewart.  
> >
> >This movie has its humerous points.
> >
> 
> While the last part of Fantasia isn't exactly pagan (the Ave Maria) the
> bit to the Pastorale isn't exactly mainstream.  If I remember rightly
> (I've been trying to pin down this definitely for months), it ends with
> the "camera" panning up into the night sky, where the Moon becomes a
> drawn longbow held by the goddess Artemis.  (If I messed up that
> attribution, someone puh-LEEZE clear it up!)
> 
> Even the part with the Ave Maria and Night on Bald Mountain are good for
> the music.  (Even though it's a little interesting how the cute little
> centaurs don't have nipples and the evil ghosts and spirits in the bit
> about Bald Mountain do . . . )
> 
i took katy to see fantasia a number of times, aqnd now she has the 
video.  she doesn't find the night in bald mountain part at all scary, 
because of how i defined it.  the big mountain spirit is just as much 
Woden as he is Satan, so i explained him as Woden, come to take the souls 
of the dead.  and that what made him leave wasn't the church bell, but 
the sunrise, and the church bell warned him that the sun was rising.  
soon enough for her to learn about christian superstitions later.

the nutcracker suite part is one of the more spiritual things i have seen 
in movies, for me anyway.  katy went out as an autumn faerie a few years 
ago...

                                          -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu
Subject: methods of divination
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:35:05 GMT


There are several print sources that I have found valuable for material
on divination.  Diane Stein has a book entitled THE KWAN YIN BOOK OF
CHANGES which deals with the I-Ching.  The Daughters of the Moon Tarot Deck
comes with an excellent manual that I have a a great deal of success using.
THE HOLY BOOK OF WOMEN's MYSTERIES by Z Budapest is another good source
These are all feminist or Dianic materials.  If that's not your bag, you
may want to look at the materials written by Eden Gray (could be Grey).
They are old, but this type of information doesn't go out of date.
The important think to remember with any divination it to set the mood,
get the attention of the Goddess(whatever you may call Her), and
focus!  The first few times I worked with the Cards, I was really
surprised at how very well they worked and how easy it was to read them.

Blessed Be and may you prosper in your seeking!

Nancy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick)
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:17:12 CDT

The Disney movies with witch in the title were

	Escape To Witch Mountain
	Return To Witch Mountain

I don't remember much about them, other than that I remember
enjoying them immensely (about 20 years ago).

But The Wicker Man...  Whew! I remember liking it, because it is
a good little horror movie.  But I also remember when I became
politically aware that my new friends, who were something called
neo-pagan, were completely disgusted with the film, and felt that
it did as much damage to modern tolerence of paganism as anything
that has ever been.

Of course, I can no longer watch A Boy And His Dog because of the
misogynistic attitudes portrayed.

It's all in how you look at 'em, I guess.

The Pagan/British Robin Hood is my absolute favorite, even though
the various pagan characterizations are somewhat cartoonish.
The main group though (Robin's gang and the people of Wickham,
are good old Herne followers, and their spirituality is never
diminished or made fun of by the scripts, and their rituals,
although abbreviated, still have a strong sense of sincerity.

rob d.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Movies with Pagan themes.
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 16:20:55 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.



Don't Forget "Big Trouble in Little China" starring Kurt Russell. It's
really neat! Lots of pagan Chinese stuff and all that!

Eshin-Fun
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:43:52 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <BrrsBC.EEx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>BTW, I don't like the fact that they sacrifice the Christian, even though he
>was a bad example of my other religion.  But the movie is fun--good music,
                                                                ^^^^^^^^^^
	I'm still hoping someone knows who did the music for this film.
I've heard it was Ashley Hutchings, but am looking for a confirm or deny.

Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:19:13 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

>Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>
>> In article <15523@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Dars
>> Well Richard, the group support may have had a great deal to do with
>> your plucking up the courage to step into the coals, but it had nothing
>> to do with the lack of third degree burns to your feet. That was due to
>> basic physics. The coals in a fire-walkers' pit can get up to 400< C,

	I don't think you have explained how the people could play with the
live coals at the end and not even get warm. I don't think the conductivity
theory explains that.
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: something I just wanted to complain about
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:03:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA

In article <1992Jul16.220714.16464@unislc.uucp>,
erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>: It does, however, in both instances, lay the responsibility for the
>: makeover on the woman's shoulders -- she must make herself over to
>: please him, and she must make him over to please herself.  Bet you
>: didn't know you were expected to be such a wondrous alchemist, ladies of
>: the net!
>
>Oh, bullshit!  It goes the other way, too -- ask me how many times I've
>been turned down for a date, 'cause I didn't have the right clothes, or car,
>or wasn't tall enough, or didn't make enough money ... all by the women
>you so adroitly defend as being downtrodden.  Women do plenty of trodding
>themselves.  It works both ways, not just one.
>--

Ain't that the truth.  So it's a human problem.  Well, let's
everyone (who cares/agrees) do our part and not perpetuate the myth
of some ideal that is not our own.

Astrid
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Misogyny was (veggies, women, fear)
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:16:28 GMT
	<2A6CFA5C.7770@noiro.acs.uci.edu>

In article <2A6CFA5C.7770@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Again, the only powerful women that most men are really familiar
>with are mothers and teachers, and both of those situations cast the man
>in the role of helpless little boy, child with no real control over his
>fate -- his fate being in the hands of adults.  He learns to distrust us
>and grows up where other men (who have felt the same thing) then take
>over and tell him the same thing, and tell him that to prevent his being
>recast as tiny tot, he must put women under his heel and keep them
>there.

I think you're on to something there. And the process of being a teenager
is one of rebelling in the effort to find one's self. This would be
rebelling against mother and father, but as you say, if mother is the only
experience of a woman ... There is a difference in the sexes as this point.
The relations between son-mother-father and daughter-mother-father are
different as one approaches adulthood. It's a trinity, a three-way, these
are always exciting. But back to what you were saying, this would seem to
be a good reason to get more women involved in business and politics, if
for no other reason than education, - of both man and woman.

>I also think that sometimes they
>subconsciously understand what women have been through through the years
>(centuries) and fear what they think is righteous anger.  

Yeah, I think that's an angle too. You know, at some point you make the
choice to start studying the past and what you find out is really beyond
belief. It's enough to consider conversion to another species. At that 
point you either choose to ignore it and hope it goes away
or the hard wall of truth hits you. You put yourself in that position and
you feel tremendous anger. You either recoil from that anger or you face it
directly and turn it around into love. The past is gone. It's only purpose is
to teach about how not to do things again. It's not all about who did whom
wrong and when and how. It's about where did I come from, who am I and
where am I going. You gotta know about the first two before you can begin
to address the last, but the last is the most important. Joyful participation
in the sorrows of the world, that's the key  - for me.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Headache remedies
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:53:31 GMT

Willow bark contains salicylic acid (spelling possibly wrong).  Aspirin
is acetylsalicylic.  When we were learning to synthesize the stuff, my
organic chemistry professor said that the willow bark form is much more
likely to upset your stomach.  I haven't tried it myself.... But in any
case, they are not exactly the same drug, though if you react badly to
aspirin you should certainly stay away from willow bark.

Storm/Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Misogyny was (veggies, women, fear)
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:37:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <2A6CFA5C.7770@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> 
> In article <12402@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
> >In article <711627331.F00001@therose.pdx.com> 
> >Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:
> >>WHAT IS IT ABOUT WOMEN THAT MEN FEAR?
> >
    [interesting stuff deleted]
 
> Think of it -- the ONLY powerful women a man sees, really powerful, are
> when he is a child and she exerts a tremendous amount of power over
> HIM (as mother or teacher).  WE MUST GET MEN INVOLVED IN THIS KID STUFF.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

YES! As the father of two young boys, much of my parenting style
is a direct reaction to my father's. He was the standard "bread-winner-
but-let-mom-do-all-the-work-at-home" father. He was not abusive or
even physically neglectful - he did some nice things for me and with
me, but he NEVER was able to really just talk to me or articulate
*feelings*. As a result I have had to learn to do this on my own, and
it's still a problem for me. But I'm trying my darndest to share myself
and my time with my kids. Best bumper sticker on this subject:  
"The best thing to spend on your children is time." So true!  Money and
"things" (i.e., gadgetry and toys and goddess forbid, TV) are very
poor substitutes and inevitably give kids the impression that they
don't matter. How can someone raised like that ever develop empathy
for anyone else?

> Nah.  Follow up all you want.  I also think that sometimes they
> subconsciously understand what women have been through through the years
> (centuries) and fear what they think is righteous anger.  

Could be. But it's not because of fear that I stayed with my SO when
she got pregnant (in spite of contraception) and decided to have the
kids when I didn't particularly want them, or that I have worked at
a dull, mind-numbing, meaningless job for years to put her through
Ph.D. school. I did it cause it was the right thing to do. And in
spite of all we've been through, we're still together and it looks
like we're in it together for the long haul.
> 
> Blessings,
> Janis
> 
Blessings back,

--richard

                          *********************************
Richard Darsie            *                               *
(Tuneweaver)              *     The one who dies with     *
darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu   *   the most instruments WINS!  *
                          *                               *
                          *********************************

Newsgroups: alt.pagan