HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Organization: Society for Puttign Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:33:11 GMT

jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes: >
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes: >

>   By way of introduction, your most recent responses are the first
>time you've indicated a further Jewish education. All I could base
>myself on was what you had written, as I of course don't know you.

I did say in my first post that I did quite a lot of research and
studying, although I did not quantify it.  A number of people have
responded along the line that I didn;'t study "enough," without
knowing how much I did do!

>   As another introductory remark, the idea you appeal to, valid
>experience, differs from the usual use of the word valid on scj,
>which is valid interpretation. I add this so as to try and make
>clear that I'm not addressing this.

Interesting.  So experience is not a basis for running one's
life?  I find it the most important.

>   As to valid experience, I don't agree, actually, that the uniform
>experience in any Jewish approach allows one to make an informed
>choice. I don't think you've lived different approaches (again, based
>on what you've written, especially with respect to when you were 24.)

No, the best approximation I could make was talking with people about
their experiences and beliefs, much as I am doing now.

>   Here's real hubris now, but I also don't consider the edges of the
>spectrum to be the place to look. 

Ah, but again, you assume what is not the case.  I also examined
the orange, yellow, and green areas of the spectrum.  ;-)  I
chose what worked best, and since I am having this discussion,
obviously everything is always open to change.

>   As to your specific objections, concerning sexism etc. there
>are many niches, even (perhaps most particularly) in the Orthodox
>world. I won't say more, because I'm not trying to preach and because
>my purpose is only to invite you to explore territory that I don't
>think you've entered.

But I have.  My problems with staying in any of the other niches is
a lack of faith in "God," in how "God" is defined by the branches I
looked into, and a real objection to the "us against the world" mentality
I have seen in several communities.  I would prefer to avoid any
flamefights on this last issue, because I brought up this subject
two years ago on s.c.j. and got a number of nastygrams.  It's okay
if you disagree with me, but I don't want to live my life with
that worldview.


-- 
Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.

Centigram Communications Corp, San Jose California  408/428-3553
From: "ken halfon" <ken.halfon@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: chanukkah stories 2
Date: 26 Dec 92 03:52:06 EST
Reply-To: "ken halfon" <ken.halfon@execnet.com>
Distribution: soc
Organization: Executive Networks Information


     Since others have asked here are some more Johah stories. I suppose
i've heard and forgotten hundreds of Johah stories over the years. My
late uncle seemed to have an endless supply.

     There was one about Johah and a plate of spaghetti and how Johah
was trying to eat the middle out of the dish of pasta so as not to lose
his meatballs. Of course the outer parts of the spagetti came with the
inner...

   Another involved Johah an his attempt to cut down a small
pine tree to bring into the house because he saw a neighbor doing it. He
had no idea what the tree was for but figured that it was part of seasonal
tradition and so cut the tree and dragged it into the house. several days
later the needles fell all over the floor and sap ran all over. His mom
remarked that if he was going to have a pet tree he was going to have to
learn to clean up after it. He cleaned up the mess and then dragged the
tree back outside where it belonged.

     A neighbor came by and noticed Johah trying to get the tree to
stand up in a hole in the ground he had dug. The neighbor remarked
that the tree stands because it has roots. Without roots the tree can
not stand. Johah still stood the tree up as best as he could and filled
in the hole. That night at dinner he asked his mom "The neighbor tells
me that the tree cannot stand without roots" "If that is the case why
can we stand since we have no roots". His mother answered. The tree
stands because the roots give it balance. We stand because tradition
and literature ties us to the past and future just as the routes tie
the tree to the ground. The next time Johah visited the market he looked
for a book with roots comming out of it to no avail.
 
                                         |    /
                                         |  /
Ken.Halfon@Execnet.com                   |<      /--\  |/--\
Ken.Halfon%acc1bbs@ssr.com               |  \   |----  |   |
ken.halfon@hardgood.com                  |    \  \__/  |   |
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

                                                          ->>> KEN <<<-
---
  DeLuxe 1.26b #2354  Cautious observation preceeds saltation!
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 00:41:14 GMT

In article <1hi52cINNiqc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>1.  Dr. Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisee
>    A medical doctor and a famous Palestinian figure.

You could say the same for George Habash, who, like the Hamasis, is a
genocidal butcher.

From a different nationality, there was Papa Doc Duvalier. He was a
doctor, was he not?


--Mark
From: Murray Kahl <kahl@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
Subject: The right of diaspora Jews to affect Israel
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Murray Kahl <kahl@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:25:26 GMT

Gated by mkahl for:
From: Avrohom Keller
  To: Daniel Schwartz

DS<>RS> There is a practical problem since no debate can take place
DS<>RS> within the Jewish community without it spilling over into
DS<>RS> the public forum. When the policies of the Israeli gov't are
DS<>RS> harmful to Judaism and the Jewish heritage of specific Jews
DS<>RS> (as they have been in the past eg. Yaldei Teiman) do we
DS<>RS> still have to keep our mouths shut? If Israelis want our
DS<>RS> support, political and financial, then they're going to have
DS<>RS> to tolerate our opinion.
DS<>No!! That is point exactly.  We in the diaspora have no right to judge
DS<>anything Israel does.  Our support must be full and unconditional.  Nor
can
DS<>we give and criticise.  We must give with an open and loving heart.

If when it's talking about political policies; you may be correct.
but when you are dealing with a Halachik issue every single Jew wherever
he may be has the full right to protest, since the Torah was given to
all Jews; to the Jews in Eretz Yisroel as well to the Jews in Dispora.
Specifically when we are talking about the security of all the Jews
living in Eretz Yisroel - every single man, women and children have the
right to protest and criticize.
 
What do you mean by saying: "Our support must be full and
unconditional".
---
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: A self-confessed silly thread: Jewi
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:03:58 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1993Jan3.161302.22994@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn) writes:
>In article <1473600019@igc.apc.org> sdubin@igc.apc.org (Stephen Dubin) writes:
>>
>>Perhaps it is also appropriate to list people who, although they have
>>Jewish names; have a non-Jewish mother e.g. Howard Stern.

Except that Howard Stern does have a Jewish mother, so he's still shanda.

>Sounds like a good idea to me.  Here are a few well-known cases for starters:
>
> Diane Feinstein

The Jewish newspaper I get counted Feinstein amongst the Jewish senatorial
contingent (along with Arlen Specter, to my surprise.)
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi Jokes (?)
Date: 24 Dec 1992 08:53:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


	Did you know Nazi's have their own laxitive, works just for
them.......



	Yeah, the Red Army: they did a good job of pounding the
SH@# out of them in WWII.

-- 
A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
  also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
   WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
-------bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu-----aa1439@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu-------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Christianity vs. the Jews
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:26:48 GMT

It must be that the ground is cold this time of year because these slimy
creatures seem to come out of their caves, holes, and woodwork all the
more this time of year.

In article <1h442nINN9dt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
(James Tauber) writes:

>The Tanakh doesn't teach this. How can a holy God allow an atheist
>a place in the world to come?
>I agree with you that any good person can go to heaven. The problem is,
>there are no good people without teshuvah and atonement.

Instead of reading your j4J manual, you can find the answer in Jewish
books.

>I can understand why Jews are so deeply offended by Christian proselytising.
>But understand - Christians take the judgements of the prophets a little
>more seriously than most Jews and as far as I'm concerned,
>no Jew fulfills the obligation of Torah. Teshuvah and Atonement. Where are
>they?

Got that out of your mission manual, I'm sure.  The algorithm is standard
and transparent:
1: "join us. We're Jews, too." (cajole and convince)

If that fails....

2: "_you_ aren't real Jews." (condemn)

>It might be wise to flame me by e-mail rather than here.

Why? To make it seem like ypour tripe is acceptable?

>In His Majesty's Service

Undoubtedly.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: American Jews and Lubavitch
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:43:10 GMT

I have a feeling that the logic of Lubavich in promoting prayer in
public school is based on a feeling that if a Jew sees prayer, his or
her "Jewish soul" will be likely to awaken, sending the person in
search of a Jewish way to express spirituality.  I haven't heard any
clear statement on this, and I could be wrong, but this is a feeling
that I get from other things that I've heard them, and other Chassidim
say.

I don't agree with this position myself, but this is how I understand
what might be their motivation.

Since postings are often misunderstood, I'd better point out that this
is *not* a criticism of Lubavich, even though I don't agree with them
about this.  This is an attempt to understand them, and if I've gotten
them wrong, I'd be delighted to be corrected.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          "If there really was a Jewish conspiracy to run the
 |__/__/_/        world, my rabbi would have let me in on it by now.
 |warren@         I contribute enough to the shule."
/ nysernet.org 			    Saul Goodman
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: The differences, again :-)  
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 19:25:47 GMT


E.A. Halevi discusses God communicating to Moses in Hebrew. Why would
God have to use any particular language, rather than speaking directly
to Moses' brain, so to speak?

Does "vayomer" necessarily have to mean via speech?

David
-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM Public Key on server  --  Consider it an envelope for your e-mail
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Origins of the Diaspora
Date: 31 Dec 1992 16:06:09 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu
Keywords: diaspora

In article <1992Dec30.205416.203437@uctvax.uct.ac.za> naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>Can someone help find accurate information on the origins of the Jewish
>diaspora. The often repeated claim (found mainly in Christian books) that
>the Romans exiled the Jews in 70 CE is nonsense. Bar Kochba's shortlived
>republic was about 60 years later and at that time the Jewish population in
>Israel was very large. After Bar Kochba the area of Judea was heavily
>depopulated but other parts of Israel saw an increase in population resulting
>from refugees from Judea. The history books point out that during the 2nd
>century CE there was a DECREASE in the diaspora due to Jews becoming
>christians and assimilating. 

If you are asking about secondary sources, the bibliography is 
enormous. Here are a couple of references:

	Baron, S.W., A Social and Religious History of the Jews. See
	especially vol 1, Chapter 6 "Expansion of Judaism" and 
	vol 2, pages 3 - 171.

	Stern, Menahem, The Jewish Diaspora in the Second Temple
	Era, in Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, p. 277 ff.
	(this is quite brief).


-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: Shaliach Tzibur (aka "Cantor") and Music
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:56:10 GMT


Actually, I prefer the lack of "professional" standards.  My experience
has been that when you have a pro, he'll show off with difficult to follow
melodies.  And, even if he doesn't, there's a tendency on the part of
the congregation to turn the service into a concert.  The amateur
shaliach tzibut tends to bring a more participatory feeling to me.

Miriam Nadel

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Graffiti (was Jewish Joke of the Day)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:23:19 GMT

In: <1992Dec22.025906.1@vxdesy.desy.de>
godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de suggests:

>In article <BzMv2y.EDv@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (
>> In article <1992Dec21.195907.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes
>>>In article <1h4j3dINNsn0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I got the following out of Rabbi Joseph telushkin's Book on
>>>> Jewish Humor...
>>>>
>>>>    Found on a sign above a Urinal at Hebrew University in
>>>>    Jerusalem....
>>>>            THE FUTURE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IS IN YOUR HANDS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>If we're on grafitti jokes I think I prefer:
>>>
>>>"  my mother made me a homosexual"
>>>
>>>and written below in another hand:
>>>
>>>"if I send her the wool, could she make me one too?"
>>>
>>>Laurence
>>
>> Sorry, the best bit of grafitti definitely has to be
>>
>> "Absolute Zero is OK"
>>
>>
>Me, I prefered "Heisenberg Rules May Be OK"

I personally prefer the one (alas, only for those with some background
in mathematics) seen by me at  the place where graffiti usually is, in
the Dept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics in Cambridge,
England:  "Green's Functions, and so does mine".

>Laurence

Have a Happy Hanukka,

Michael Shimshoni
From: naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Origins of the Diaspora
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:54:16 +0200
Keywords: diaspora
Organization: University of Cape Town

Can someone help find accurate information on the origins of the Jewish
diaspora. The often repeated claim (found mainly in Christian books) that
the Romans exiled the Jews in 70 CE is nonsense. Bar Kochba's shortlived
republic was about 60 years later and at that time the Jewish population in
Israel was very large. After Bar Kochba the area of Judea was heavily
depopulated but other parts of Israel saw an increase in population resulting
from refugees from Judea. The history books point out that during the 2nd
century CE there was a DECREASE in the diaspora due to Jews becoming
christians and assimilating. So how did it come about that Jews in the diaspora
came to outnumber Jews in Israel. (If I remember correctly, during the Mishnaic
and Talmudic periods, the Nabatean "Arabs" and later true ethnic Arabs in
Northern Arabia, adopted the Jewish religion. So there were a lot of Jews
around both in Israel and further south.) 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:24279 soc.culture.arabic:6075 talk.politics.mideast:24397
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 30 Dec 1992 20:40:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, backon@vms.huji.ac.il () says:

>1) Hamas is a terrorist organization
>2) Dr. X is a member of Hamas
>3) Ergo: Dr. X is a terrorist
>

Okay.. How about this for logic:

1. Israel deported 418 Hamases including Dr. X
2. 10 of these deportees are not members of these Hamases
3. Dr. X is a member of these 10.
4. Dr. X is not a terrorist after all.

Dr.,  your logic sucks..

Dr. X is not a terrorist unless he is convicted of killing
your soldiers.  


-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: American Jews and Lubavitch
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:05:34 GMT

In article <4976@ceylon.gte.com> sg04@gte.com writes:
>I would say that there are a lot of problems with this analysis:
>
>1. Comparing Chabad to communism is pretty far-fetched. I would have
>to say that it shows unfamiliarity with at least one of the systems.
>Taking an isolated incident that occured in 1932 and using it to
>make a connection between two widely divergent schools is not what
>I would call an intelllectually rigorous comparison. In fact I would
>say that such an comparison would only work if one is not being logical
>at all, but rather emotionally enraged, biased, and perhaps emitting
>one's open hatred.
>
Now now.  I compared the _logic_ of the two arguments and nothing
more.  I made no "connection between two widely divergent schools".
My sole aim was to suggest that lots of people frequently make
disastrous assumptions about the future.

>2. One would have to be very unfamilliar with Chabad to try and
>claim that it's position is to have American Jews withdraw from
>general society. Perhaps this could be applied to Satmar. But,
>it is directly opposite with Chabad. The entire thrust is to
>engage and take part in society. That is why you will find Chabad
>professionals in locals and professions where you would never
>find any other Orthodox Jews (Singapore, Las Vegas, Hong Kong, etc.)
>(Race Horse breeding, Cattle Ranching, Sky-diving, etc.)
>
You're absolutely right and if what I wrote suggested that Habad
recommends _withdrawal_ (though I don't think I did), I want to
make that clear.  The European model I mentioned didn't involve
withdrawal either.  Orthodox Jews, including hasidim, were from the
very start involved in all kinds of business ventures.  Wasn't
Simcha Bunim himself a former lumber merchant?  No, I meant the
kind of cultural isolation that was once the norm.

Norman Miller


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: deportation
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 04:48:55 GMT

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

>>... To which the families of the vast majority were recent immigrants
>>from surrounding Arab lands, enticed by the economic rejuvenation
>>brought on the the Zionist influx they love to rail against.
>>

>The economic what! Jews allover the world are so worry to migrate to
>Israel for two reasons: ...

Before you misinterpreted (deliberately?) what I wrote, we were
discussing the fact that most of the Arabs who now call themselves
Palestinians (a term, incidentally, that was used to refer to Jews,
not Arabs, before the Arabs expropriated it for propaganda purposes
after the reestablishment of Israel in 1948) originally came to
Palestine attracted by the rejuvenation that occurred with the Zionist
influx beginning about a century ago.

Israel, to be sure, does have significant economic problems today.
Given the need to spend enormous sums to defend itself from dozens of
Arab states bent on its destruction, that's not hard to understand.

>>It's likely that the families of thousands of those "Palestinians" who
>>were expelled from Kuwait came to Palestine from Kuwait in the first
>>place.

>If some did, it is natural for any body to return to his/her homeland.

And it's so interesting that, when they did return to their homeland
in Kuwait, they were unceremoniously kicked out!

It's so amazing--hypocritical is more like it--that you stood silently
by while hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs got kicked out of
Kuwait for no reason other than they were considered Palestinian Arabs
rather than Kuwaiti Arabs (so much for the great Arab nation!), and
then get all bent out of shape when Israel temporarily deports a
couple of hundred terrorists.

Great double standard there.  Mazel tov.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Assembly line
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 19:25:21 GMT

In article <765333d8181075t200@witsend.uucp>, "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
|>   the tefillin troopers who was so nearly blind and deaf that he
|>   went for a woman.  She kept yelling "Ishah!" at him, but he nearly
|>   had her wrapped before her increasingly wild attempts to reclaim her
|>   arm caused him to get a good hard feel of her chest.

"Blind and deaf", eh?  Suuure he was!    ;-}
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish