From: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus
Date: 12 Nov 92 08:51:21 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I think you're blaming some things on Paul that he isn't responsible for.

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

>1. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God, born of the virgin Mary, wife
>of Joseph.
>	the other religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt. Paul's claim that the
>	Lord of the Hebrews somehow plants his seed in Mary and she conceives
>	of Jesus, the son of God is very reminiscent of the creation of
>	demi-gods in pagan religions. Presumably, Jesus being of God and Mary
>	is part human, part God, hence demi-God.

The virgin birth is in the gospels of Matthew and Luke.  Not in Paul.
Indeed one of the standard arguments that critics make against it is
that Paul didn't seem to know about it.  Also, even in Matthew nothing
is said about God planting seed.  The statement is "she was found to
be with child from the Holy Spirit".  This says that God is
responsible for the child, but doesn't specify how.  The Holy Spirit
is probably not the form of God one would cite if one envisioned
physical activity.  There's no concensus among interpreters on the
method involved in the virgin birth, but physical impregnation is
not high on the list.

>2. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time.
>	Now, in most cultures of the world, it is an insult for a son to
>	claim he is his father, particularly if the father is still alive.
>	Nonetheless, this is Paul's claim. 

As far as I can find, Paul doesn't claim that Jesus is God.  He says
things like "he is the image of the invisible God".  I think you're
taking the wording behind Christian doctrines too literally, and
further are reading later views into Paul.  The most explicit
identifications between Jesus and God are actually in the Gospel
according to John.

>3. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time and
>that Jesus suffers and dies on the cross and reincarnates or comes back to
>life.

>	dies. Jesus as God dies? How can God die? God was never born, He
>	just is. But Jesus was born and is God, according to Paul, and since
>	Jesus (God) was born then he also must die. 

"Jesus as God dies" is not a statement that a Christian would ever
make.  Certainly Paul doesn't make it.  This is moving a few centuries
later than the Bible, but orthodox theology says that in Jesus we have
two separate things: a normal human life, and the presence of God.
These things must not be confused.  (Doing so is a heresy.)  Thus the
orthodox statement would be "Jesus as a human being dies".  God
experiences death, but though his identification with the human, i.e.
somewhat "indirectly".  Theologians were very careful (probably too
careful, in my view) to avoid saying that God the Father died.

>	...Jesus being a son of God has the power of
>	reincarnation, and so Jesus comes back to life and then goes into
>	hiding somewhere.

The language used by Paul and others generally says that God raised
Jesus.  That is, Jesus is as mortal as the rest of us.  It is God's
power working through him that causes the resurrection.  Although in a
literal sense this is reincarnation, the word reincarnation has
taken on a specific meaning what is not consistent with what 
Christians think happened.

>	The followers of Judaism are expecting a prophet to
>	restore Israel. Paul's version of the history of Jesus does not
>	fit Judaism at all.

That is certainly clear.  If you're really interested in the
relationship, I strongly recommend H.J. Schoeps' "Paul".  Schoeps is a
Jewish scholar, whose personal views on Christianity are quite
critical.  But he does a good job of showing how Paul's ideas are, and
are not, based on 1st Cent. Jewish beliefs.

Note however that this posting shows little sign of knowing what Paul
actually said.  Perhaps you've been reading too many postings from
people who blame all of what they think are Christianity's errors on
Paul.