From: mike@gordian.com (Michael Thomas)
Subject: Re: Coerced Anti-Drug Commercials
Reply-To: mike@gordian.com (Michael Thomas)
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:29:41 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.231015.1013@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
|> In article <1992Apr13.174349.7684@gordian.com>, mike@gordian.com (Michael Thomas) writes:
|> 
|> 	I think this sort of question forms-up as "What should the
|> 	goverment allow to be exchanged in return for a shorter prison
|> 	sentence or lower fine ?". Once upon a time, it was legal for
|> 	convicts to offer themselves for medical experimentation. This
|> 	was supposed to get them brownie-points. Alas, faced with the
|> 	prospect of hard time ... even Dr. Mengle could have obtained
|> 	'volunteers'. At what point does the pain of your sentence make
|> 	you unable to offer completely free and informed consent ?

    What I alluded to (below) was that if you think of these alternative
punishments in terms of restitution to the victims, you can pretty clearly
delimit the scope of what is proper restitution. Medical experiments seem
a pretty unlikely consequence under such a schenario. Restitution should
only be made toward the actual victims, and then only in an appropriate
manner wrt to the crime (e.g. rape should not get the "medical experiments"
option since this is hardly restores the victims violation). One other
note seems important: restitution != retribution. Retribution should be
strictly controlled under the definitions of "cruel and unusual".

|> >    If you look carefully though, all of the examples which bother you
|> > are punishments stemming from laws which are invalid in the first place.
|> > What you (and I) have found is yet _another_ reason why illogical victimless
|> > crimes need to be repeled though. My proposition is that with rational laws
|> > (and proper guidelines on what constitutes restitution) you would not be
|> > asking this question. What we have here is just another deadend of the 
|> > victimless crime fallacy.
|> 
|> 	Be careful, lest you declare murder a 'victimless crime' because
|> 	the victim didn't survive to appreciate their victimization.
|> 	The surviving family and friends ... well, it's *their* problem
|> 	if they feel emotional trauma - which is non-real ... 

     No, no, no. Murder, of course, is the standard bearer of all victim'ed
crimes. My point is that the scary restitution schemes which you outlined 
were all in the catagory of invalid victimless crimes. In this case it is
not the concept of restitution which should be challenged but, again, the
concept of victimless crimes. The problem is not in the immediate 
interpretation of the premise of restitution, but in the (falsely) given
premise that the crimes which lead to these bizzare consequences are correct.
For example, if a law about heresy to the Church were passed (Thank you 
Jesse), it would be appropriate that the transgressor be made to do 
community service to the victim (the Church). This could include going 
out on missions to convert the heathens. Of course this is ludicrous, but
the fallacy is in the original crime, not in the restitution aspect. When
you get contradictions which are logically argued from a set of givens, 
check your premises.
 
|> 	Of course, this political coersion may apply even to 'real' crimes,
|> 	even if they are minor. This area is one in which the govt should
|> 	not tread. It will take a lawsuit to break them of the habit now - 
|> 	and an amendment to deal with it if we wait ten years.

     They are the logical ends of all attempts of saving man from himself.
Perhaps the spectre of Prohibition (aka WOD) and the rise of gangsterism
along with the new fascism of our loving government will awaken people
to the inevitable result of their misplaced compassion. Maybe, maybe not.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
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