HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Christian Census
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:43:21 GMT

In article <195bbmINNebi@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary) writes:
>
>I have a friend whose brother found a way to get the Jehovah's Witlesses
>to leave him alone. It was an accident, really.  Thanksgiving, possibly
>Christmas, I forget which. Whole family's gathered around in the living
>room, having fun, talking, etc. Doorbell rings. Guess who's there? Yup.
>The brother stares at them for a sec, then, before the dude on the steps
>has time to start his spiel, blurts out "Go away! We're devil worshippers!"
>
>The Witnesses never came to that house again.
>-- 
>Jessica McGeary
>jmm25@po.cwru.edu
>Case Western Reserve University
>Remember! Arguments should be FUN!

Pardon my bluntness, but this episode sounds extremely stupid. If you read
Liam's post regarding the reaction of his neighbors to the mere fact of 
his penchant for wearing a pentagram, I hardly think this a wise move.

I would suggest the best course of action in all these instances is to 
make very clear that your religion is a valid belief system for you and
your family, that it has history apart from theirs that has been distorted
by their historians, and that it is NOT threatening to them in any way.

Striking fear into the hearts of the ignorant only will make them (or their
friends) come back later with a gun or a firebomb. If you are a perceived
threat to their family (regardless of the reality), you'll find their
reaction to you negative.  If you approach them in a friendly way, show
them that you are just as human, compassionate, and devoted as they, you'll
gain their respect, not their hatred.

All humor aside, this is an important subject: pagan interaction with a
areligious or predominantly Christian community.  I wear a pentagram, and
when someone reacts negatively to it (even just a facial gesture), I try to
explain what it means to me, why it is an important symbol, and why we are
all brothers and sisters under the same cosmos, irrespective of our under-
standing of the functioning of that cosmos.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Learning in North Carolina
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 17:29:52 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

Damon... I would suggest looking around in your bookstores for some or 
all of the following books:
 
Wicca:  A guide for the solitary practiotioner, Scott Cunnigham
   Llewellyn's Practical Magic Series
 
Celtic Magic (not sure of author or publisher)
 
Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft (Raymond Buckland, good practical 
approaches to magic.  Large, workbook sized book, with blue cover"
 
Any of these can give you a good start on the road.  I have found that 
tbe best sources are B. Daltons, Waldenbooks, and the Book Stop.  Being 
national chains and not small independent stores, they have more freedom 
to carry material such as this, even in Jim and Tammy Fay country...
 
Hpe this helps...
 
Morgan

s

------------------
morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
(Alternate) morgan%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8877 alt.mythology:1765
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology
Subject: Cernunnos as a War God (was: Celtic)
Date: 7 Sep 92 04:09:12 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan

From *The Encyclopedia of Religion* edited by Mircea Eliade:

                        Cernunnos

A Celtic god with the horns of a stag, is attested in Gaul by about 
10 figurative images and one sole inscription from the Roman era,
currently preserved in the Musee de Cluny (Corpus inscriptionum
Latinarium, Berlin, 1863, vol. 13, no. 302c). A plaque from the
Gundestrup Caldron bears the image of the stag-horned god seated in a
buddha-like posture, holding a torque in one hand and a serpent in the
other, and surrounded by animals that include a stag. This image
suggests that Cernunnos is the Gaulish Jupiter in the latter's aspect
as lord of animals.

But there is no certain correspondence from among the insular Celtic
cultures, either in name or in personage, if Cernunnos is understood
as "horned god" and the classical associations with the "horn of
plenty" are adopted. However, given that the Celtic words for "horn"
(Welsh, "carn"; Breton, "korn"; Irish, "adharc") are words with
different etymologies, it is not clear that this approach is entirely
fitting. It is possible that in this context "horn" means something
else. If the suffix is treated abstractly, the Gaulish theonym in fact
recalls that the Irish surname for Conall is "Cernach", which means
not "horned one" but "victorious one", and if there is a horn in this
case it is a symbol not of plenty but of military victory, a symbol
for a bold and renowned warrior. 

In fact, almost nothing is known about Cernunnos, except that the root
of his name, *kern-, refers specifically in Celtic to the crown of the
head. It is on the Indo-European level that it is a cognate to words
denoting horned beasts in general and the stag in particular.

In the absence of all discursive commentary by Celts themselves, no
conclusion can be drawn based solely on iconography. It is not known
what the Cernunnos "provider" seated between Apollo and Mercury on a
votive stela from Reims really means; nor is the meaning known of the
tricephalic Cernunnos accompanied by two horned serpents on a bronze
statuette from Autun. In any case Cernunnos is not exactly a stag god,
since he is anthropomorphic.

                       Bibliography

Bober, Phyllis P. "Cernunnos: Origin and Transformation of a Celtic
   Divinity". *American Journal of Archaeology* 55 (1951): 13-51.

Holder, Alfred. *Alt-celtischer Sprachschatz*, vol. 1, Leizig, 1896.

Le Roux, Francoise. "Cernunnos". *Ogham* 5 (1953): 324-329.
             '
Article written by:

Francoise Le Roux and Christian J. Guyonvarc'h
    '
Translated from French by Erica Meltzer

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This article typed into the computer by Thorfinn Einarsson.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hello!
Date: 15 Sep 1992 07:09:26 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society

In article <1992Sep15.000948.29195@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>
>Also, I don't know who Ymir Thunarsson is, or what the Ring of Troth is
>either. More clarification would would also be appreciated.

 Ymir is the head, to my knowledge, of Eagles Reaches Garth. The Ring of
Troth is a Germanic, Heathen Organization here in North America which ER
is part of. I run a mailing list for the Ring that is open to Asatru and
interested parties as well as Ring members.

>To this I will add the same request to Grendel, who has just informed a
>fellow from PODnet that the Friends of Loki are here. If you have any
>information on Norse mythos or traditions you are willing to share with me,
>I would be grateful. Books are a good start. My thanks in advance.

 I'm in the same boat as Hulda organizationally. I'm a member of the Ring
as well. As for the Friends of Loki society, we are sort of a cross
between Erisians/Discordians and, in my case, Germanic heathen types, and
in other cases, Ceremonialists types. We call ourselves "Lokians" as
opposed to "Erisians" as we are followers of Loki, among other things.
Needless to say, we are not backed up by mythology or the Troth in this as
there is no evidence that I know of that the Germanic peoples ever
actually worshipped Loki. The same goes for Baldur. I just happen to be a
tricksterish sort and general crazy on some things. Otherwise, my
scholarship is acceptable if you ignore that.

 Good book on Norse mythology? A very readable book of some of the Eddic
myths is "The Norse Myths" by Kevin Crossley-Holland. ISBN 0-394-74846-8  
 Almost everyone I know has a copy of this if they are into Norse
mythology. VERY good. Not explanatory though, just modern retelling.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.drugs
From: tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu (tom)
Subject: Re: Witchcraft & Hallucinogens
Keywords: atropine belladonna datura witchcraft
Organization: The Lab Rats
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 20:09:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.170912.12830@phillip.edu.au> x91007@phillip.edu.au writes:
}I am looking for references on the role hallucinogenic drugs 
}played in Medieval witchcraft. One of my and long-term aims 
}is to draw out the differences and similarities in the states 
}engendered by the drugs used by Medieval witches and those 
}used by shamans in Latin America and Asia. Hopefully 
}eventually to develop a comparative phenomenology of these 
}states.

}The only major reference I have been able to track down that 
}deals directly with this issue is:
}
}Harner, M. J. (1973) 'The Role of Hallucinogenic Plants in 
}European Witchcraft' in Chapter 8 of 'Hallucinogens and 
}Shamanism'. Harner, M. J. (Ed.) New York: Oxford University 
}Press.

you might also want to check out the following:

Wilson, Robert Anton.
  Sex and Drugs, A Journey Beyond Limits : Phoenix, Falcon Press <1990>
  xx, 188 p.  Glossary. Bibliography.
  ISBN 0-941404-48-X

Schultes, Richard Evans.
  The botany and chemistry of hallucinogens / by Richard Evans Schultes and
Albert Hofmann ; with a foreword by Heinrich Kluver. -- Rev. and enl. 2d ed. --
Springfield, Ill. : Thomas, c1980.
  xxv, 437 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. -- (American lecture series ; publication no.
1025)
  Bibliography: p. 369-409.
  Includes index.
 SUBJECT HEADINGS (Library of Congress):
     Hallucinogenic drugs.
     Hallucinogenic plants.
     Pharmaceutical chemistry.


-- 
tom@udel.edu                                        ...!{gateway}!udel!tom
tom@genie.slhs.udel.edu           UDel: School of Life and Health Sciences
Libertarian candidate for Delaware House of Representatives, 23rd District

"Themes were useless; Destiny was here, and the foot pedals were bleeding."
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "Jesus did not claim divinity" (WHY ?)
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:11:36 GMT

pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> You mean like JPS:Tanakh, ISBN:0-8276-0252-9?

A most excellent translation.  The best English rendition of the Hebrew 
Scriptures that I have found yet.
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: Marija Gimbutas (Was: Re: more Minoan stuff)
Date: 15 Sep 92 03:11:09 GMT


>leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>Not only too romantic, but not really based in fact.  She has a vision
>of the Great White Matriarchy that controlled Europe, under which
>everyone was peaceful, nobody used knives, everybody was a placid
>agriculturalist in an ideal Utopia until those nasty Indo-Europeans came
>along and conquered everything.

I talked with a woman scholar here at the University of Texas about
this. She said that when she first entered graduate school, she
idolized prof. Gimbutas. After a few years of research she decided that
the evidence did not support Gimbutas' view. She claimed that
Gimbutas was guilty of gross-interpretation and over-simplification.
I am sitting in on prof. Polome's graduate class, Indo-European
Culture and Religion and hope to here more from him. 

I must add that prof. Gimbutas is an outstanding scholar when one 
looks upon her whole career. Much of her recent work will need to
be re-examined, though. In fact, the Institute for the Study 
of Man has published a book edited by Susan Nacev Skomal and 
Edgar Polome' entitled, 

Proto-Indo-European: The Archaeology of a Linguistic Problem
        Studies in Honor of Marija Gimbutas

Professor Gimbutas is very ill at this time I have been told.

=-= Fara thu vel =-=-=-=-= Ek ann Freyja! =-=-=        /   \  |  /    /\
          , Odhinn er Alfadhir!                       /     \ | /    /  \
"Vitidh ther that, en hitt vissa ek,          ,       \      \+/     \  / 
 at atgeirr hans var heima."         ---Thorgrimr      \      |       \/ 
               ALU ALU ALU                             /      |       /\
=-= Thorfinn Einarsson =-=-=-=-= Blumenkraft=-=       /       |      /  \

Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.politics.guns
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Marija Gimbutas (Was: Re: more Minoan stuff)
Date: 13 Sep 92 01:35:41 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:

> I have only one question for her, and I couldn't ask it at the
> book-signing she was at in Berkeley a couple of years back, because the
> pro-Gimbutas crowd would surely have strung me from the rafters: she
> says that the bull's head is symbolic of the uterus.  So, pray tell,
> just when did these peaceful agriculturalists do their vivisection?
> 

I don't understand-- why would they practice vivisection, when even the 
simplest dissection of a woman dying in childbirth, perhaps attempting
to deliver surgically, would make the existence and shape of the uterus 
relatively common knowledge?

Later, Bill
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Summary: any Jewish translation will be based on the Masoretic text
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:24:22 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <199209102134.AA11222@intercon.com>, amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:

> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

> > My interest is in finding an old testament text that is not based solely
> > on the Masoretic text of CE 1009, but includes as current as possible 
> > scholarship from respected sources. As I've stated, I keep running up
> > against dogmatists who hold to a fairly narrow belief.

> The best translation of the Hebrew Scriptures that I have found is "Tanakh," 

Just to make something quite explicit -- the JPS _Tanakh_ is based on the
Masoretic text.  You will need to go to Christian sources for a translation
that uses other material (Septuagint, mostly, with some supplementation
from other versions and where possible recent discoveries), at least if you
want a one-volume version.  The Anchor Bible volumes (basically, one per
scriptural book) often have Jewish editors of the OT books, and these are
generally as current with scholarship and potential alternate readings as
anything.

For one volume bibles, either the Jerusalem, the New RSV or Amanda's REV
are decent, especially in study editions with lots of notes.

By the way, JPS is publishing a series of commentaries on its translation,
of which either 4 or all 5 of the Pentateuch volumes have appeared.  I am
not specifically familiar with these, but they might well discuss other
versions even though the Tanakh text itself is Masoretic.

> published by JPS (Jewish Publication Society).  For the Christian Scriptures, 
> my favorite so far is the Oxford Study Bible, an annotated version of the REB 
> (Revised English Bible) published by Oxford University Press.
> 
> > Excuse me, but Chris, unless you realize it, you are very obviously within
> > a certain camp with regard to Christian dogma.
> 
> Yup.  Evangelical protestant, is my guess.
> 
> 
> Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
> -- 
> "And it came to pass that in the hands of the ignorant, the words of the bible
>  were used to beat plowshares into swords..."
>                 -- Alan Watts


-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@usl.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
standard disclaimer			With your crooked heart."
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Hello!
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:43:16 GMT

In article <scotts.8025@meltdown.chi.il.us> scotts@meltdown.chi.il.us (Scott Szakonyi) writes:
>Just wanted to say hello -- I am a refugee from the Pod-net, which no longer is
>available in Chicago.  The discussion here looks great.  BTW, I am a follower
>of the Norse Pagan tradition, and would like to make contact with any others on
>the net...

 There are several of us here and I know you from PODnet as well. Thorfinn
and the whole Eagles Reaches Garth is here as well. We even have our own
mailing list for Asatru.

Wassail,
Grendel

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 18:58:00 GMT


The Houston Renaissance Festive is not an SCA event.  The SCA
is only one of many that have booths at the festival.  If you
want to do something at the SCA compound at RenFair you must
contact Jim and Janet Bozarth (aka House Morningstar) and clear
it with them.  If you just want to do something somewhere at 
the festival the SCA has nothing to say about it.  I don't
know who you would need to contact about that but Jim and
Janet do.  They would probably tell you because, despite what
people have said about them, I have found them to be neat people
  Contact me by e-mail if you want their address (also the
Brewitch should have it since he's SCA too!)

I have heard from official type people that the reason the
SCA doesn't allow pagan stuff is thus:

The SCA has to fight against stereotypes by the real world.

The real world has stereotypes against pagans as well.

They have a hard enough time fighting their own fights against
the real world without having the pagan stuff on top of it.

I can understand this, I don't like it, but I understand it.
I feel however, that if we cannot display our beliefs on our
official heraldry then no one else should either.  

Barring any change consider this.  One knight wanted to put
his initials on his official symbol.  Therefore he devised
the background such that in abstract it was an M.  He then
put a double headed axe on top to form a T.  Tarl Mapt.
We could do the same thing.  We have symbols and symbolism
that they don't know, don't recognize, or think are 
different from what they really are.

Consider it......

Tammy
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Date: 11 Sep 92 00:04:57 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <1992Sep10.190552.4832@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.171730.21071@csus.edu> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>}In article <1992Sep10.154615.27996@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>}>In article <8SEP199221092286@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>}>}>Paul a deciple of Christ said
>}I suggest reading your bible. He did not meet Christ in the flesh, but
>}through an vision.
>
>I suggest reading your own post.  You did not say "in the flesh".  
>I suggest reading my post.  I did NOT say that he met him. I said that the
>CLAIM is that____.  And _I_ KNOW that the claim is made because it was made 
>TO ME.  
>
>Arrogance, when coupled to ignorance, is a fearsome thing.

My apologies if I misunderstood your approach to this subject. I no longer
had access to your original post, only the cut from a reply. I failed to
notice your words stating it only as a "claim". In my experience, I also
have similar "claims" made to me all the time, which seldom have a solid
historical foundation.

BTW, until you understand where someone is coming from, there's not much 
point in adding another insult to the list. If you look, we have the 
beginnings of another pointless flame. You seem to have attributed the 
earlier post to me, when I did not write it, as my only post to you (the
one you just responded to) DID say "in the flesh" (it's quoted above).

It doesn't sound like we even disagree. Why you consider me arrogant or
ignorant is up to you, but I at least try to work these things out rather
than just fight about them. I'm sorry if I offended you; I was only pointing
out a common misconception about Paul, which you seem to agree with.

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:15:40 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.004920.2340@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>
mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:

[a lengthy, obviously well-informed view of the Masoretic text...]

My thanks for your efforts in clearing this up. Your thoughts on the 
substance and origins of the Masoretic agree with a number of the sources
I've read, and I might add, were very well stated.

Just thought I'd acknowledge that I did read your post, and in fact have
printed out much of this week's thread to keep track of all the varying
ideas. It has been a most productive thread.

Have a good weekend, all;  Michael and Paul, thanks!

Blessings,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."