HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:22:00 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              12 Nov 1992 21:07:48 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:07:48 -0700 (MARK DRAKE) said:
>> You will find both Calvin and Edwards to be firm believers in man's total
>> inability/depravity and lack of what we now are calling "free will" which is
>> different from what they teach about man's will being free within its bounds.
>> The bounds are made up of the sin nature or total depravity of man.
>
>> Tom Brewer
>
>
>	A lot of us who believe in free will believe that it is bound,
>yet still free.  I offer Edwards' explanation of how that is so.  (ie
>we are free to choose acorfding to our inclinations/desires, and in
>fact always do choose acording to our inclinations, but our
>inclinations are "depraved"; we have no inclination to obey God or
>serve God.)  I realize that this is not the humanist definition of
>free will.  But then again, I posted this before and we are on a
>christian list, not a humanist list.
>
>
>Mark

Mark:

That was my point. The unregenerate will only desires "inclinations" toward
evil. Man "will" not choose God. It is in this boundary/bondage that the
unsaved will operates.As you read Edwards, follow it up with reading Romans
8 to see the boundaries on the unsaved mind. Total depravity is pretty well
established in Romans 1-3.

The misconception of "free will" seems to be that people think nothing,
absolutely nothing affects their choice in any way. It is to this I say one
would have to be omniscient (God) to say absolutely nothing has affected a
choice. God's choices are without external cause. God alone has "free will."

If you get a chance, read anything written by C. Samuel Storms. He is an
Edwards scholar and wrote a dissertation on Edwards' view of original sin.
He also wrote a more popular work called The Grandeur of God.

Tom Brewer
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:14:06 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Trinity...

Of course Jesus is God !

Read Revelations.

The Alpha and Omega is God and also the Lamb.
The First and the Last is God and also the Lamb.
Worthy of all praise, honoy, glory.....is God and also the Lamb.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:37:17 -0700
From:         "(Glenn Radinsky S05152@doc.flc.colorado.edu)"
              <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Prayer request

Dear All:

     A few days ag a couple of acquaintances of mine dropped
by while I was reading e-mail from this group and asked
about it.  I naturally told them that they were from a
Christian group.  Because I did not want to be rude and
pushy, I let it go at that, but I hope the mere fact that
they asked about this will lead to further witnessing
opportunities.

     It seems that sometimes if I am able to stake out a
strategic terminal in the lab (right next to the printer) I
sometimes get asked a lot of questions about the mail that I
am reading and that this could very well lead to some
witnessing opportunities.  I am therefore hoping that the
lot of you guys would be willing to pray for those who
wander by and ask questions.

                         God Bless,



                            Glenn
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (St. Jesse)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Whose will is dominant?
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:19:49 GMT
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              12 Nov 1992 14:06:42 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Dear Eric ;

Of course, if God gives a man SAVING GRACE that man WILL believe and be
converted.  The Grace of God is not a Prevenient, Convenient ... carrot, as
it were, but is something that is Unconditional and it NEVER FAILS to "get
its man."  If God gives a person Grace unto Salvation, that person will
undoubtedly COME to CHRIST, for without that Grace NO man is WILLING, due
to their ENMITY with God ... but, with the Grace of God unto Salvation, that
person is made a NEW Creation, whereby they are made freely willing to receive
the things of God and they ALWAYS come to Christ.Without God MAKING a person
a new creation -- "born again" (Regeneration, i.e.) -- they are still DEAD in
their sins, unable to receive the things of God, and still AT WAR with Him.

By the way, I implement the term, "Grace unto Salvation" because God DOES have
what I term "common grace"upon all people, in that He gives all people the
same sort of kindnesses such as, rain in due season, warm sunlight, food, H2O,
friends, and so forth.  However, God is not an "Equal Opportunity God" for He
apparently gives these sort of items in different amounts to different people.


"Grace unto Salvation" is that special sort whereby He sends the Spirit to
apply the ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED Saving Work of Christ to a particular person.
When He does this, they are made a new Creation, and raised from the DEAD
state of being they were in previously.  They can then Receive the things of
God, turn to Christ in FAITH, and REPENT of their sins before a Holy God.
Without this GRACE, they remain "dead in their sins" and unable to accept the
things of God, especially the Gospelof a Sovereign God sending a Saviour to
die for people who are enslaved to the devil, of all things.



Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:46:03 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      ...(G grimaces...bigtime)

Darren.
Oh boy, I'm not wanting to be rude, dude, but you just made me lose the
appetite I was building....I have not had breakfast, and did not eat
dinner last night due to circumstances that were ...well, necessity.
All I can say is that there was the snow for water, and pine needles,
berries, roots and other (more palitable) stuff there I'm sure.
YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:50:28 EST
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Gays in the military

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>Back on the gay military question, I have to ask - Are gays really that
>anxious to put themselves in an environment where they will be ridiculed,
>beaten, destroyed, shunned, cursed, and maybe even killed?  The prime rule

Are you saying that it's ok for the military to ridicule, beat, destroy,
shun, curse and maybe kill homosexuals?  It sounds like you're trying to
say that someone who's homosexual *deserves* to have all those things done
to him because he's gay, if he gets in the military.  The whole point of
gay men and women wanting to get into the military is to try to get rid of
this sort of prejudice.


>their life, if they can't, the entire mission WILL collapse.  Frankly, gays
>will NOT work in the military because they would undermine the entire system,
>provide too many complications, and besides - the military can now SELECT who
>goes in and not merely accept who comes in, so WHY would they even consider
>a gay over a straight man/woman?  MCS-IC

How would being homosexual and in the military undermine the entire system?

Finally, Why would they consider a gay over a straight man/woman?  Perhaps the
person who is homosexual is more *qualified*.  After all, one's sexual
orientation has nothing to do with a person's ability to perform a duty.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:59:47 CST
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Jesse's reply to Brad Kaiser

Brad ;

Here I sit with a couple of million volumes at my fingers and not a decent
copy of "Trent."
However, I will check with Tom Brewer ... I read through many of the Canons
years ago ... especially the soteriologically/Christologically-related ones.
Now, you must believe that I am not puttin' this off ... I need to dig up a
viable copy of Trent's Canon's.
I thought Tom had a Nihil Obstat copy of that critter.


Jesse
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Freedon of speech.
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:52:00 GMT
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The short post about the Albany, N.Y. teenager who was not permitted to end
an article in a school newsletter with the words "God bless" triggered some
thoughts.

Is this an abridgment of our freedom of speech, probably so.  Is it
expected, it should be.

Those in the Christianist right wing can be thanked for this sort of
behavior on the part of schools.  The schools have been so severely beaten
about the head and shoulders about doing or saying anything that violates
the consciences of the Evangelicals that they are reacting by just plain
banning anything religious at all.  Teachers, principles and educational
administrators are sick and tired of having so-called Christians tell them
what they can and cannot do.  They are tired of being told to eliminate
textbooks with references to evolution, tired of having their libraries
censored of things that irritate the over-sensitive consciences of the
religious zealots.  Can they be blamed?  I don't think so.

I admit that their reaction is an overreaction.  It is definitely a shame
when a teen cannot say "God bless" in a school newsletter.  We ought to take
a lesson from this.  Christians have no business trying to impose their
morals on anyone else.  Let the schools do as they please.  If your child
isn't being taught correctly, remove them and seek alternatives.  Stop
trying, though, to force the public schools to be Christian schools.


Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:38:34 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.
              12 Nov 1992 15:21:36 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Yo Steve:

Why is this a better question:

>  A better question is "Is God able to be in control without
> micro-managing everyone's lives?"

God has not created, dropped back and punted and now waiting to see how it
all turns out. He turns the hearts of kings like rivers of waters. He forms
the unborn in the womb. He knows the thoughts of the heart. He knows the very
number of hairs on your head. He knows when a sparrow falls to the ground.

My friend, God is in Sovereign control of His creation. Divine providence is,
using your words, God "micro managing" all things.

Are you suspicious of God's heart? Do you fear He doesn't know how best to
manage His creation? Do you fear you might miss out on something if God is
in complete control of yor life?

He alone is Lord of the Universe!

Tom Brewer
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:53:25 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: The Gospel

The Gospel:

So much loved God the world that He sent His only begotten Son so save us.
The Son of God incarnated and was made human and dwelt among us and His
name is Jesus Christ. He loved us in such a way that He accepted to die
in our place to redeem us from sin. He took a cross and died on it so
we were set free. Three days after His death, God rised Him from the Death
and He was made Lord and Owner of the universe so that every knee in
Heaven and in Earth and in the Pit shall be put down before Him. He sent
us the Holy Spirit to make us like Him and one day He will return to

us in Glory and Power to judge the living and the dead and those who would
be found worthy will reign with Him for ever and ever and will worship
God and God will dwell with them. AMEN.

That is the Gospel I preach.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:57:46 CST
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From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus tells Thomas about evil and sin

I'm curious to know the same thing!!

So when you tell Scott let me know also!!!

Janie
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:58:33 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.
              11 Nov 1992 13:51:58 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

For a large part of humanity, God's role over them seems more analogous toa
patient judge, who is kind to the prisoners at first, but delivers the guilty
over to judgement and execution.

Besides, a father and child analogy breaks down at that point when we bring
in the added dimension of judgement and eternal punishment, for no parent would
do this.


The analogy of parent and child is strained in light, also, of the fact that
God is Righteous and human parents are only relatively good, and not even that
in many cases.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 08:25:28 EST
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Prayer Request Update - Women's group

I think we had a very productive meeting last night.  Everyone participated
and had valuable input.  We set three major goals for our group - to engage
in mission activities, to become involved in serious prayer for missions,
and to develop a sense of unity within the group.

Our first goal, to engage in mission activities, will begin this Saturday.
There are persons who are unable to get out and attend church services but
who are members of our church.  We have set meeting the needs of these
members as a higher priority than mission activities with non-members.  We
want to do both, but we have to start with making sure that our own church
members are taken care of.  One man lives alone and has not seen any family
for three years.  His apartment is in desperate need of cleaning.  We will
meet this need.  Other plans for mission activities outside our church are
in the planning stage.

Our second goal, to engage in serious prayer for missions, will begin to be
met in an organized way on Dec. 5, during our denomination's Week of Prayer
for Foreign Missions.  We plan to meet for breakfast and devote all morning
to prayer.  Pray that this will be a success, and that we will be able to
involve many women in it.  I hope to continue these types of meetings, and
perhaps work up to longer sessions.

Our third goal, to become more unified, is already underway.  By studying
together, working together, praying together, and occasionally socializing
together we will get to know one another better and feel closer.  Pray
that this continues.

Thank you all for your prayers.  I feel so excited at the possibilities.  We
have some very talented and committed women in our group.  God can use them
all in a big way if we only keep the faith...

Brenda
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:07:42 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: His Blood ...
              BLACKWELL" at Nov 8, 92 1:14 pm

Well Angela the thought of eating his flesh and drinking his blood
certainly turned a LOT of people off in the book of John until you
understand that the eating and drinking is symbolic! (ouch! here we go
with another transubstantiation argument!)

Blood is the required payment for Sins, thats just the way God made it.
In the old days it was the blood of innocent lambs and things every
day or every week or when ever they did it.. it was a temporary thing
that only lasted a little while anyway.

Then came along the perfect lamb, who also was innocent, and his blood was
shed once and for all, for all the sins of mankind, who ever would turn to
him! (oops, here we go with another predestination argument!!)

The idea of being washed in the blood has no grossness for me, but the
idea of being washed in any OTHER blood than that of Jesus Christ is
particularly nauseating to me!..

By the blood you have saved me,
By the blood you have raised me,
By the blood we may enter, into your holy place.
By the blood, precious blood of the lamb!...



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:52:37 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Various Things...

This post ...uh... well??? I dunno.
I'm with Zane.  We need to get back to the encourage-pray-praise-
love-share-care-hang-in-there-I'll-be-praying-for-you mode.
(Figure that out gang.... :)
Zane,
Love ya dude.  Keep your eyes peeled, because it's not long before
HE will return, and (I hope) take us on the most awesome flight of
our lives.  Can you see ME flyin' without aid of an airplane????
(Can't wait to try out my wings, either...only hope they're big
enough to support me!! )
Oh, and the trip you mentioned... the one that you said would be
with face to the ground, at his feet??? Want you to know I'll be
there too... (You might just have to push me aside, dude....He's
done too much for my family and me for me to even want to leave
his Almighty presence...)
Oh, and for all the musically inclined, and not-so-musically
inclined:
Musicians:  I don't care if you are amateur( like me) or can
play the heck out of whatever instrument you have the talent for...
GET READY... TUNE UP... we're gonna HAVE LOTS OF FUN for eternity.
Musically-inclined folks... others... Don't even worry about
singing ranges, and cracked notes... you won't have any of that.
(G grins from ear-to-ear.... no tone-deaf folks in Glory!)
:)))))
Can't WAIT...
ME....
---------
Dear Heavenly Father,
Forgive me for any sins I might have committed today, so that my
prayer can reach the Throne.
Thank you for everything you've done for all on this list, and for
all the Christian folks I know.
Thank you for giving Steven and Madge the courage to activate such
an awesome list....and thanks for a Christian roomate who showed me
what CHRISTIA was.
You've been there always, and like Carman said,
.....You alone are Worthy of praise, and Honor, and Glory, and
Power and wisdom.
Lord Jesus, it's not long before you come back.... I can feel it.
Please, be with us as we try to let our lights shine.
Sometimes we fail you miserably, but you've forgiven us with what
Calvary did... thanks for taking my place!
Never will I deny your Lordship, or your Almighty Power, and Love.
Give these fellow Christians, no matter what their affiliation,
the guts to stand firm in the Faith.
No matter what side of the Greenwich Meridian they're on.
Almighty Father, your Matchless "Amazing Grace" is more than
enough.
I Love you...
Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:16:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      RE: Jesus and the Holy Spirit

Date:     Thu, 5 Nov 1992 12:39:00 EST
From:     JHART@EARN.UMASSD
  I have a question which I think might be of some interest.  In the
Gospels, it is stated that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus the Holy
Spirit descended on him in the form of a dove (Luke 3:21-22).  In Luke
4:1 it says "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit,...."
  The question is: Does this mean Jesus, the second person of the Trintiy,
did not have the Holy Spirit prior to His baptism?


John,

I think the answer may be more to do with visiable signs for us reather than
about the nature of Jesus.  If you look at the raising of Lazarus, the request
Jesus makes has alot in it about using this event to allow God to show the
people that Jesus was special.  This device seems to be used at turning points
in his ministry as a visable symbol of "Thy will be done"   I think this is
another of these cases.

If Christ and the other persons of the Trinity are Co-eternal and co-existant
as the church believes, then baptism could not have been the point at which
the Spirit first was in Christ.

This however may have been the first point at which the man Jesus and the
Spirit became one.  (I am musing on this with no Bible to hand and am now
wondering if the story of the boy in the Temple had anything to do with
Spirit - even in its other Jewish traditional form of Wisdom.)

A further thought may be that this baptism may have been the first point at
which God as Spirit and as Christ had been so joined as to work through one
another rather than with one another.


Gosh, you really have got me thinking.  I shall mull this over more this
weekend.  I won't promise any answers but if anything occurs to me I shall
let you all know.


Carol A Long,  Southampton Institute of Higher Education, England
        email     :  Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
DISCLAIMER - merely musings unless otherwise stated.
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:51:58 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.

Excerpts from christia: 11-Nov-92 Re: Point to Eric. Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (153)

> Eric ;

> But my man, is your idea that God's relationship to us is analogous to a
> parent and child ACTUALLY Biblical ... as you state it?

> Jesse Carnes

Are you serious?

Why do we call God "Father" (or Abba)?  "Does a mother forget the child
within her womb? Yet even if these forget, I will never forget my own."
We are adopted sons of God.  We are the children of God.  "Our Father in
heaven, your name is holy . . . "

Let's not forget the analogy of husband and wife, too.  Even when a
husband has sovereignty over his wife (not common in today's world
though), does he not permit her some choice in what she does?  (refer to
song of songs for the Biblical proof of this relationship.)

Eric
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