From: vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:48:12 GMT

[Before I being, I'd like to note how ironic it is that I can *discuss*
this stuff with Bob while Arne sees fit to do little more than rant....]

In <1992Aug28.033552.27972@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

>>>I have met many gay men, handsome, masculine, and closeted--
>>(elf)                                                  
>>/   Your clue word for the day.
>>My clue word?  Let's use your words to explain *why* these guys are 
>>closeted:
>>   "Leathermen like me, Bears, Queens, Nellies, Camps, Drag Queens. . ."
>/That's not an explanation, Bob.  It's an *excuse*.  What's more, it's an
>/excuse to which *you* subscribe.  
>What's the difference between a reason and an excuse, Alan?  A reason
>is a justification that you agree with, while an excuse is one that you
>*don't* agree with?

In my personal hierarchy, an excuse is a reason created primarily to
comfort a person who isn't sure she/he has made a "right choice" for that
person's life.  Excuses, from what I've seen, generally try to remove any
hint of responsibility from the person making the excuse.

Lemme try and frame this in terms of the original issue:
Personally, I don't like "nelly" or "macho" behavior.  My *reason* is
because the kind of people I've encountered who utilize these behaviors
have struck me as vain, superficial, and out to attract as much attention
as possible.  Note: I freely admit that this impression is a result of
their personalities interacting with mine.  In fact, I can occasionally
lapse into a two-second "camp" phase with certain friends, but I generally
feel slightly queasy afterward.  For those of you who've become lost (I
almost got lost myself 8-), this is a Reason.  It contains the presumption
that this set of behaviors may not be completely rational; it also contains
the presumption that if any blame exists (in this case I can't see any for
anyone), it's not restricted to the Other Party.

Now, let's look at an Excuse for the same issue.  I could say that I don't
like "nelly" or "macho" behavior because the people who indulge in those
behaviorisms have severe personal problems if they have to act "that way."
Note that this implies not only blame, but also blame on the part of "other
parties."

I realize, of course, this is also how I interpret the terms.


>(vanyel)
>/What's the next excuse, Bob?  Even supposing you could somehow wipe these
>/"negative stereotypes" off the face of Earth, what will the next excuse be
>/for the closeted?  The only enemies we face are fear, prejudice, and
>/misunderstanding, and from what I see your comments on here feed all
>/three.
>So, the gay community NEVER does anything wrong, NEVER does anything
>counter-productive, and NEVER commits any act that works against its
>stated goals?  Alan, be realistic:  is there any group (or any
>person) so perfect, that their actions are never above review?

Ho, time.  When did I insinuate that the gay community doesn't have any of
these qualities?  In fact, I'd say it's no less prevalent than in any other
community.

No, I'd say it's more so.  I've never really understood the concept of a
"gay community" any more than I understand why *any* minority should feel
obliged to cut itself off from the "mainstream" society.  Maybe that's my
problem (for those of you who think I've got a problem): I think that
society needs integration more than it needs to be split up by little
groups that can't look past their own noses to see the world as a whole.
And that goes for majority and minority alike.

Chew on *that* for a while.  8-)

--
 ________________ Alan Williams  vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu ___________________
 \/ A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a battle between an         \/
    _Enterprise_ security team, who always get killed soon after appearing,
    and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of
    a planet?                 	--Tom Galloway
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