HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:35:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.094655.16873@osf.org>,
sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.162454.23373@bcrka451.bnr.ca>, dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi
>Williams) writes:
>> In Chaucer's time the spelling was "rowte", so it was probably
>> pronounced that way in England.
>
>That depends on how you pronounce 'row' of course. :-)  I would have
>thought that Chaucer would have pronounced it close to the French
>pronunciation as that is from where it came, and a lot closer to his
>time than ours too.

The OED does not record "rowte" in the sense of course, path, road,
or way.  Neither can I find it in Chaucer.  How it might have been
pronounced, while interesting, is moot.

By the way, in my original post that raised the question of how "route"
is nowadays pronounced, I asked particularly for responses from England.
Alas, I haven't seen any yet.  Silence is all very well at times, proud
English, but at the moment I need your help!  Speak up, won't you, please?


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to the memory of John Cage.]

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Asses
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 13:32:44 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <1992Aug11.185359.7097@rose.com>, peter.churchill@rose.com (peter churchill) writes:
|> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com comments when
|>  
|> | I had never actually thought of this before, but the term "ass" almost
|> | NEVER means "donkey" or "mule" any more (at least around here).  Growing
|> | up with two parents who grew up on farms, I realize now that they would
|> | use the term "donkey" exclusively.
|> | 
|> | And, being strict, Bible-thumping, southern Baptists, they would never use
|> | the term "ass" under any circumstances whatsoever, because it was 
|> | considered a not-so-nice slang term for someone's backside.
|> | 
|> | I recall that my dad once used the term "bitch", in context, to refer to
|> | a female dog, and my mother dressed him down for it pretty severely. In
|> | her mind, it was a "bad" word and should never be used at all.  
|>  
|> That piqued my curiosity. How did they deal with the Bible itself -- 
|> at least the KJV -- which, according to my Cruden's Concordance, 
|> contains some 30 references to an 'ass'.  
|> 
|> I have faint recollections of a snicker or two in Sunday School when 
|> someone, sotto voce, mentioned JC riding into Jerusalem on his ass.

Yes, I recall those same snickers, too.  You should have been growing up
in a church with a name like David, as I did.  Lessee, good old King Dave
was an adulterer, murderer, drunk, warmonger, just name it, and he STILL
found favor in the eyes of God.  I figure I'm a cinch.  Still, when some
of the stories were told, the kids always managed to associate his name
with mine.

Ironically, in church was the ONE place that one could get away with using
terms like "ass", "hell" and "damnation", but even then only if they were 
being used in some religious context.  Looking back, it was a strange life
growing up with these people.  They were very good folks, and they were always
very good and supportive of their kids, even when we questioned their
views and values.  Now, though, their views and values seem often paradoxical
to me.

Oh, and off the subject, thank you *so* much for spelling "piqued" properly.
I get so weary of reading about people who have had their curiosity "peeked"
or "peaked".

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|The meaning of the complement form of a switch    |
|can be determined by complementing the meaning    |
|of the switch.                                    |
|                     --Ada Reference Manual       |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: "Are you busy?" or "Are you free?" & Hypotheses
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:17:21 EST
Organization: Wright State University 



You've hit a hot button here, sir.  

In article <9208161026.AA19862@MIT.EDU>, dks@MIT.EDU (dks) writes:
> 
>                         Q1:    "Are you busy?"
>                         Q2:    "Are you free?"
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>            Null hypothesis:    In the USA, people are
>                                more likely to ask Q1 than they are Q2.
> 
>     Alternate hypothesis 1:    In the USA, people are
>                                as likely to ask Q1 as they are Q2.
> 
>     Alternate hypothesis 2:    Outside the USA, people are
>                                more likely to ask Q2 than they are Q1.

I'm a-feared that you have it backwards.  The null hypothesis is exactly
that there is no difference in frequency of usage of Qs 1&2.  The alternative 
hypothesis is that there is said difference (and in the direction you have 
specified).  You will need two alternative hypotheses given your 
contentions.

Beyond that I leave it to cooler heads to respond to your query!

Look at how schooling gets in the way of education...

-----ted hayes
From: pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Use of Myself (was Re: Use of 'I' and 'me')
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:36:20 GMT
Organization: cam.eng

>In a previous article, dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha) says:

>>Is anyone else bugged by the phrasing that leads to "Please mail it to myself,"
>>or "give it to myself"?  Somehow, I see a difference between telling myself
>>something (maybe I am telling _my_ _self_ something?) and exhorting someone
>>else to do/send/tell something to "myself." 
>>
>>Is it a regional difference?  Do you want people to give things to "you," or
>>to "yourself"?

I hear and see it a lot. It seems to be becoming more prevalent. It
annoys me too.

Philippa


--
Philippa Hogben   pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk  (Reverse if mailing from Janet)
Any mistakes are mine, all mnie.

I am not a .sig virus. I am a free bug. 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: pel@resntl.bhp.com.au (Paul Osborn)
Subject: Re: Forever Manglia
Organization: BHP Research - Newcastle Labs
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:44:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.221410.681@mala.bc.ca> epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) writes:
>From: epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp)
>Subject: Re: Forever Manglia
>Date: 15 Aug 92 22:14:10 -0700

>In article <9208152302.AA18676@MIT.EDU>, dks@MIT.EDU (dks) writes:
>>
>> In article <86205@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>>   > How about mangled English that isn't necessarily
>>   > part of a screwed up ad campaign?
>>
>> To which:
>>     How about mangled English that isn't necessarily
>>     mangled in translation?
>>

>        "The Whitecaps are behind the eight-ball, literally and figuratively"

>                        - Soccer commentator John McKeachie

>        "The crowd gave him a warm round ovation"
>	
>                        - Sports newsreader Michael Landsberg
>	
>        "Please try and write more neater"

>                        - my grade 9 biology teacher - in writing.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lorne Epp                                               epp@mala.bc.ca

It seems that so many of these quotes come from sports commentators. Do they 
have a special school where they learn all these beauties ? 

The sports commentator to beat all sports commentators had to be Rex 
Mossop, unfortunately recently unwillingly retired, who said (of a 
football game) "there's (sic) acres of yardage to be made up the 
middle"

-------- PAUL R OSBORN, Research Scientist, Sensing Technology --- /\/\ --
                BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories, Australia  / / /\
Snail   :       P.O. Box 188, Wallsend, NSW 2287                 / / /  \
Tel     :       +61 49 51-0605  Fax : +61 49 50-2126            / / / /\ \
Telex   :       AA 28768                                        \ \/ / / /
Internet:       pel@resntl.bhp.com.au                            \  / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------- \/\/\/ -
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Women Doctors
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:50:10 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <1992Aug18.180938.5634@nas.nasa.gov>, asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov) writes:
|> I'd like to know why we commonly see the word "woman" pluralized
|> in phrases like "women doctors," "women scholars," or "women plumbers."
|> No one would dream of pluralizing the adjective along with the noun in
|> the phrases
|> 
|> 	boy wonders
|> 	girl athletes
|> 	male nurses
|> 	(ek cetera).

:-) *I* saw it.

|> Actually, I'm having trouble coming up with a familiar, similar
|> phrase that starts with "man."   (Perhaps the explanation of this
|> will shed light on my original question.)

This made *me* try to come up with some of them.  It seems that the word
always used in the masculine case is "male" instead of "man".

      male nurse
      male secretary
      male flight attendant

Anybody care to speculate on why that may be?

|> Or do I have it mixed up: is "women" the noun and "doctors" the
|> adjective in this case???

I'm not touching this.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Despite decades of market research, markets       |
|proliferate and there's no cure in sight.         |
+--------------------------------------------------+
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:27:47 GMT
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug17.141030.1@wombat.newcastle.edu.au>, eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
> In article <71275@apple.Apple.COM>, shaevel@Apple.COM (Jeff Shaevel) writes:
> 
>> In Arlington, VA, I remember a time when the express lines first started
>> at a major supermarket with the "12 items or less" signs in place.  Within
>> one week there were formal paste-ups over the "less" so the signs read
>> "12 items or fewer".  Within a month, the signs were replaced completely
>> with the correct phrase.  I was very impressed.  Northern Virginia (it 
>> wasn't only that store) is the only place I've been to that's gotten it 
>> right.
>> 
>> Any others out there?
> 
> Jeff, you have prompted me to action.  I'm now printing a copy of
> this article.  With your permission, I'd like to tape copies to the
> windows of some local supermarkets.
> 
> Peter
> 
> (P.S. Actually, I prefer "12 or fewer items"; but that's a whole
>  nother quibble.)

I think that '12 items or less' is OK because I see it as short
for '12 items, or a lesser amount' . It is clearly wrong to write
'12 or less items' because in this form the 'less' clearly refers
to the 'items'. That is not so clear with '12 items or less'.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
From: esr@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Edwin S. Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Coke brings back ancestors ...
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:00:06 GMT

In article <86205@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L.  
Crawford) writes:
> How about mangled English that isn't necessarily part of a screwed up
> ad campaign?  ..... 
> Operator manuals?  ......

From a manual for a SunTour bicycle shifter:
"The feature of Sun Tour POWER SHIFT"

"This lever has been designed no frictional resistance at all as compared  
with other ordinary levers.  Every lever requires certain friction so that it  
can stay on the selected speed position, but the POWER SHIFT has completely  
no frictional resistance on account of the small notches built in the lever,  
saying tick-tack, tick-tack, at the time of speed selection."
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: Out of Place
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:02:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.182103.1595@gvl.unisys.com> hopkins@gvlf9-o.gvl.unisys.com (Bill Hopkins) writes:
>From: hopkins@gvlf9-o.gvl.unisys.com (Bill Hopkins)
>Subject: Re: Out of Place
>Date: 13 Aug 92 18:21:03 GMT
>In article <1992Aug12.115321.21284@osf.org> sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience) writes:
>>Anyone know if there is a word that means something that is in the wrong
>>place or is out of place, like anachronism is for time. Like a fireplace
>>in a house in a climate in which you would clearly never light a fire.
>
>Anomaly?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>hopkins@GVL.Unisys.Com          Paramax Systems Corporation (A Unisys Company)
>215-648-2854 or 363-7464        Great Valley Labs, PO Box 517, Paoli, PA 19301
>MXE 016 radial, 8 nmi              Opening my mouth is not company policy.


If you want to coin (recoin) something, how about anastasis, which already
exists with a different meaning, but might be retrofitted for the purpose?
The generic would be anastasia.  Or anatopsis.  Which doesn't mean death
warmed over.

Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
From: epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer (supermarkets)
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:18:39 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <1992Aug16.115941.12213@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
> In article <1992Aug15.215238.680@mala.bc.ca>,
> epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) writes:
>>Does "up to 10" mean "fewer than 10," or "10 or fewer?"
> 
> I'd say it means the latter.
> 

So would I, but it would be clearer to say "10 items or fewer".  "Up to"
always sounds like adspeak to me, as in "up to 50% off," which people
usually fail to interpret as "no more than 50% off."

> 
>>On a (barely) related note:  With my last paycheck I got a voucher that
>>was to be redeemed "after August 10th."  I patiently waited until the 11th
>>before turning it in.  It turned out that I could have redeemed it on the 
>>10th.
> 
> You didn't ask, but I'd say the voucher lied.
> 

When I read the voucher I said to myself, "self, I bet they meant
'on or after August 10th.'"  It seems to me that it is more common to get
this kind of thing wrong than right.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne Epp                                               epp@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Asses
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:59:06 GMT

In article <6734@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk> martin@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Martin Gorman) writes:
>scjones@thor.sdrc.com (Larry Jones) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug12.133244.25505@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
>>> Oh, and off the subject, thank you *so* much for spelling "piqued" properly.
>>> I get so weary of reading about people who have had their curiosity "peeked"
>>> or "peaked".
>
>>Don't let it get you down, it's a mute point, anyway.
>>
>MUTE POINT??!! It's a basic tenant of my philosophy.

Schoolteacher: Mikey, where's the Rumanian border?
Mikey: In the park with my aunt, and my mother doesn't like it one bit.

R
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Whose Ox?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:14:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.094945.18959@rose.com> bob.blackburn@rose.com (bob blackburn) writes:
>
>Date Entered: 08-12-92 05:43
>
>Can anyone tell me the origin of "it depends on whose ox is 
>being gored"?
>
>My dim recollection is that it's the conclusion of a fable 
>or parable or folk tale or some such.

I suspect it comes from the Biblical laws regarding property rights.
These go into great detail about who owes whom what when somebody's ox
is gored; and lots of general property laws are derived from the
ox-goring discussion.  So in a way it's a synecdoche: using an example
of someone beng damaged to stand for damages in general.

Roger
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: pundette
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:51:51 GMT
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.

In article <1992Aug13.153315.11686@microsoft.com>,
frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:
>I was reading Julian May's "Jack the Bodiless" last night
>when I happened on the use of the "waitron"; this waitron
>was clearly contrasted to her patrons. Could this be the
>explanation of the waitron coinage: patron/waitron?

Sounds plausible to me, but what the hell do I know?  If I have
reservations, it is because I had never thought to pronounce
"waitron" and "patron" as if they rhymed.  I suppose I have been
influenced by Ted et al. who, for reasons probably too nefarious
to even contemplate, have been pushing the "automaton" motif!


>If so, I like the neologism a little better, since it implies a
>kind of equality between the customer and the server; as an
>ex-bartender, ex-wine steward, ex-bar manager, who has served many
>a drink and many a lunch and appetizer in many a bar, I am
>very impatient with anyone who thinks that he or she is
>inherently superior to the person bringing on the goodies.

Me, too.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to the Storming of the Bastille.]
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6628 sci.lang:6546
From: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:17:40 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N):
:Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
:pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
:commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	

The sixth sick shiek's sixth sheep's sick.

--tom

-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

	    Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
	    Neither does devour with clangour.
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Usage: 'goes' for 'said'
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:31:13 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

This 'goes' thing is quite big in kiwiland, especially 
in comedy programs imitating the speech of teenage girls :

'And I go " . . . . . . ",
and he goes, he goes, he goes " . . . . ." '


-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: and - or - but
Date: 13 Aug 92 09:34:57 GMT
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: asuncion@ac.dal.ca's message of 13 Aug 92 00:16:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.211626.6941@ac.dal.ca>, asuncion@ac.dal.ca writes:

> People who begin sentences with "And", "But", or "Or" should be slapped silly
> by an English teacher. NEVER BEGIN A SENTENCE WITH and, or, but!

But why?  And how can we avoid it?  Or should we
just figure it out for ourselves?
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: peter.churchill@rose.com (peter churchill)
Subject: Out of place
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:03:10 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 08-12-92 21:57

sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience) asks:

| Anyone know if there is a word that means something that is in the 
wrong
| place or is out of place, like anachronism is for time. Like a fireplace
| in a house in a climate in which you would clearly never light a fire.

Incongruous?
Inconsistent?
Incompatible?
Discordant?
Inconsistent?

Probably lots more.

Regards: *PC*  <peter.churchill@rose.com> -- Toronto, Canada
---
   RoseReader 1.70 P001013
   RoseMail 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Organization: Maryland Appreciation Society
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:54:18 GMT

In article <992Aug4.095046.455@desire.wright.edu> thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <992Aug.74807.862@avernus.com>, 
>mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank) writes:
>> I've been thinking of buying a few supermarket chains just so I can
>> actually see signs that say "7 items or fewer."
>
>Might be bad for business -- no one would know what you mean!

Doesn't really matter.  Everyone ignores 'em anyway.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Marc G. Frank                                  mgfrank@avernus.com |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "If the Pentagon needs, say, fruit, it will argue that it must     |
| have fruit that can withstand the rigors of combat conditions, and |
| it will wind up purchasing the FX-700 Seedless Tactical Field      |
| Grape, which will cost $160,000 per bunch, and which will have an  |
| 83 percent failure rate."                           -- Dave Barry  |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Someone kicked my Donkey...
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:38:25 GMT

In article <9871@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au writes:
>
>In article henry@netcom.com, henry@netcom.com (Henry Polard) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug14.092528.19377@techbook.com> dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>There once was a pretty young lass
>>Who had a most magnificent ass.
[cetera desunt]
>I think it would work perfectly well in a Cestrian, Yorkish or equally
>Northern accent.

Eurgh - how *can* you say "Cestrian, Yorkish or equally Northern accent"?
Chester is in t'bloody south as far as York's concerned, and its on't
t'other side of t'Pennines too.

Anyway: it wouldn't work in York, of that I'm sure.  We're quite well
aware of the difference between "ass" (grey hairy stupid thing) and
"arse" (pink/yellow/brown round yummy thing), and pronounce them quite
differently.

It's only the bloody Lankies who need green wellies, I can tell you.

				Kay


-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6548 sci.lang:6502