From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: To the Clinton supporters
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:54:42 GMT

In article <BxFK39.1EF@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.090916.23179@wam.umd.edu> sorsha@wam.umd.edu (Laurie Beth Brunner) writes:
>
>>1)  People live in societies, not as hermits who all happen to
>>live in the same area of land.  You can't live in a society and
>>expect that everything will go your way 
>
>Does that include the potential that you won't make as much money as the next
>guy?  
>
>>and that everything
>>that happens is for the individual's self-interest alone.  
>
>That's not the question at issue here.  The questions is whether or not 
>people ought to be allowed to pursue their self-interest or not.  Of course
>not everyone will be successful every time they try, but preventing people
>from even trying is not an improvement.

A famous man (I forget the name) said that your freedom to swing your fist
ends at your neighbor's nose.

People must understand the ramifications of what they do, and not run
callously over people then claiming "SELF-INTEREST".  Unfortunately
big financial deals DO affect everyone.  A rise in the price of medicine
DOES affect everyone - no "healing" cantake place without an implicit
agreement with everyone by everyone to try to respect each other and not
screw each other without understanding what you are doing.

>>To
>>keep a society going, each member has to sacrifice something.
>
>Why?

SO there can be cohesion.  You must sacrifice your ability to commit murder
\or rape, or stealing in order to have a coherent society.  Laws and $$$
to enforce them are required.

> 
>>Believe me, life is much easier when you can depend upon other
>>people than when you only care about and rely on yourself.
>
>Sure, life is easy if you are a master and slaves take care of your every
>need, but I don't want to be anyone's slave or master, and no society can
>be composed of nothing but masters.  A society of children being cared for
>by watchful parents is impossible, and wouldn't be desirable if it were.

Um, you wouldn't happen to be an objectivist would you?  

In a society you are neither master nor slave.  If you feel opressed by
our society, I assure youy it is YOU not society that is doing this.

>
>>2)  In the last 12 years, and in other administrations too, 
>>the government HAS done un-Constitutional, immoral things.  
>
>Sure, including taking the property of citizens without their concent, slavery
>of blacks, and a host of other things.  So?  does that make it OK?  Does that
>mean we ought to expand the role of government, and force people to "sacrifice"
>more?

HOLD IT!  What the hell are you talking about?  What country, no, what
PLANET are you from? 

>Tell me, do you think that 
>government restrictions against policemen calling people "niggers" is a
>violation of their right to free speech?

No it is not.  (Your freedom to swing your fist stops at your neighbors'
nose - and "nigger" is a fighting word)

>What is unconstitutional is the fact the the government pays for these things
>in the first place.  When I read the constitution, I don't see any mention of
>the creation of health clinics in the list of government powers.

But you don't see a prohibition of them either.
(FYI I am not for government health clinics)

>>3)  I find it amusing that the Rep. party keeps talking about
>>how they want to reduce gov't, and that C/G want to expand it
>>into our personal lives.  This, from the party of the president
>>who wants a Constitutional amendment banning abortion.  
>
>True enough.  The Republicans ARE hypocrites, but that doesn't mean that the
>Democrats are not guilty of what the Republicans accuse them of.

Neither is it a confirmation of it.


-- 
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+ ^  ^  ^
| Brent L. Irvine         |  "Love is blind ... and stupid." | {\{|}/} CLAN
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu |                      -M.P.       |  {{|}} IRVINE
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+  o/|\o OF DRUM
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