From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 22:43:48 GMT

[I removed the references line, because our newsreader messed
the the header up, so I had to manually fix it. Sorry]

In <6192.2ad9bde5@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

>In article <strobl.718809464@gmd.de>, strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:
>> In <CKD.92Oct10234118@loiosh.eff.org> ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
>> 
>> Sure it's fair. But each time somebody mentiones that Microsoft 
>> borrowd the Ctrl+C .. shortcuts from the Mac, I feel an urge to
>> mentions where the Macintosh keyboard layout came into existence.
>> 
>> Sorry.

>Go ahead. Mention away.

<bow> <click!>

>Actually, the extended keyboard layout comes from an ISO standard. That's
>why IBM has it, and that's why Apple has it. You'll notice DEC VT terminals
>of recent vintage have the same layout.

ISO == IBM Standard Organization. Didn't you know?

>Unfortunately, I don't know the standard number off the top of my head.

>BTW, I thought I'd mention that menu shortcuts weren't invented at Xerox,
>they are an Apple innovation. They appeared first on the Apple Lisa.

I fail to see the innovative aspect of "shortcuts". It's just the
usuall keyboard interface of an interactive application retrofitted
to a menu based system. Character based systems had them much earlier.

>> I can find the insert and delete keys without looking at the keyboard,
>> while I can't find the paste menu without looking away from what I
>> was looking, before.

>You just need more mouse practice.

I have, and I don't need. Look, I don't have to find the mouse alone,
I have to find the paste menu, in addition. I can find the delete
key without moving my eyes a single pixel.

>I wonder how many years you practiced before you could reliably find the
>Ins and Del keys. It will take you a fraction of that amount of time to
>learn how to grasp and use a mouse without looking at it.

I have or haven't learned it during the last eight years or so,
why should I now perform different?

>>>Easily reachable, huh?  Not on any "standard" 101-key layout I've ever
>>>seen or used.  It's barely possible to stretch my pinky to it while
>>>keeping my index finger on the J key, and I certainly can't do it
>>>without looking.  On the other hand, Cmd-V is just "hit Cmd with either
>>>thumb, left index finger moves to V".
>> 
>> Just like the Alt+ key navigation as used by Windows.

>Except Windows ALT key navigation a) uses two keys, b) is inconsistant 
>between applications, and c) doesn't work in all cases. 

This doesn't become true by repeating it again and again.

>> That should be "[K]opieren" for me. These shortcuts have the disadvantage
>> that they don't translate well. The Alt+letter menu navigation doesn't
>> share that disadvantage, because the menues get translated. 
>> THe same applies to the special
>> keys on the keyboard: my keyboard has "Einfg" and "Entf" instead
>> of "Ins" and "Del" on the two keys we are talking about.

>Of course, the solution is for everyone in the world to use English. <grin>
>(ducking....)


GRRRRRRRRH  8-v{)                         <big grin> 

Wolfgang Strobl
#include <std.disclaimer.hpp>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy