HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SIG Sauer P226: I now understand the cult
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <9301201657.AA07226@optilink.com> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#My last encounter with the P226 left me underwhelmed.  I have one in stock
#for a customer at the moment, and I am beginning to understand the cult of
#the SIG.  It's esthetically hopeless, but ergonomically beautiful.  Every
#control comes to position perfectly.  The lack of ambidextrous controls
#causes me no suffering whatsoever, because I can manipulate EVERYTHING
#with the left hand.  The double action trigger is the first that I can recall
#that doesn't make me feel like I'm being punished for having double action.
#
#Now, if only it wasn't almost twice as expensive as most of its competitors...


Speaking of SIGs...

I talked to the gunsmith at a local range, asking what he thought of SIGs and
the 3rd generation S&Ws.  Apparently, they had a P226 there that lastest about
25,000 rounds, then peeled the frame rails clean off.  Earlier, the roll pin
holding in the breech block shattered.

Upon calling SigArms, he was told that 25,000 rounds was not unreasonable for
the gun (!), and there was nothing they could do.  As far as the roll pin,
apparently they were hardened just a bit too much, and they should be replaced
somewhat regularly (especially if they're starting to slide out).

The upshot of the whole deal was that the SIG was far and away the best combat
or duty gun to have, but was less than ideal for constant target shooting.
Unfortunately, I'm using mine for IPSC matches right now...  :-(  Just some
info I thought I'd pass along.  Anyone else had similar experiences or heard
similar info?

-- 
DVC,
  Paul
From: laird@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: [Pistol] Hi-Power question.
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:54 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

wes@hpbs2500.boi.hp.com (Wes Nielson) writes:

#Shawn L Rinehart (srinehar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:

#:      I have a 1990 Browning Hi-Power 'Sport model' that might have a problem.
#: My gun will not eject an empty magazine once the slide is locked to the rear 
#: (as happens after it is empty). If the slide is forward, it will usually pop it
#: out either 1 inch or all the way. It depends which magazine I use.
#This is normal. 
#The only fix I know of is to remove the magazine safety.
#Any other ideas??

I have been told several times that gunsmiths can give about the same results
without removing the mag safety.

(But I pulled mine anyway - much cheaper so far.)

--kyler
From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fluted barrel
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:15:22 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <9301261959.AA24576@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:
#The fluted barrel would be x% stiffer than an unfluted barrel of about
#the same weight.  The stiffness of a barrel (or other cylinder) increases
#faster than the diameter increase.  I used to know the function for
#stiffness increase back when I was trying to decide between a skinny-tube
#steel-frame bicycle and a fat-tube aluminum frame.

Stiffness of a cylinder increases as the fourth power of diameter
(twice the diameter, sixteen times the stiffness, check out a
benchrest rifle) and decreases as the third power of length.

#Fatter is better.

Fatter is stiffer, and stiffer is better if the action can hold the
weight of the barrel without bending (don't try this with a factory
bolt action, especially one with a magazine cutout, or any single
shot action).  That's why BR rifles have sleeved factory actions,
or custom actions of large diameter with minimum loading port.
On big rifles, barrel blocks can be used to prevent action bending
and rduce the effective length of the barrel (increases stiffness).
Typical barrel diameter for 1000 yard BR is 1.350".

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall
not be infringed."  Do you think that banning legal possession of
easily-concealed novels will stop criminals from reading?
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns used in assassinations
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:43 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

#Here's a rather morbid question:  what were the makes and models
#of guns used in various assassinations and attempts?  For instance,
#an Italian Carcano was used on JFK; what was used in the murders
#of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bobby Kennedy, and the
#attempts on Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan?


	Lee Harvey Oswald:  Colt "Cobra" or "Agent", aluminum
framed .38 Spl with hammer shroud.
	Malcom X: some sort of 9mm para pistol.
	Bob Kennedy: An Iver Johnson 8 shot .22 LR revolver.  Cadet or 
Young American was the name, I believe.
	MLK: Remmington slide action .30-06 of some type.*
	George Wallace:  Charter Arms "undercover" .38 Spl.
	G. Ford:  1911 .45??  I am guessing on this one.  Wasn't it
one of Charlie's Angels, Sqeaky, that tried it?
	Ron Reagan:  RG .22 LR revolver, CCI Stingers.

* BTW a show last night on Fox said that the FBI declined to do
any tests on James Earl Ray's rifle to determine if has even 
been fired since the last time it was cleaned (it was found 
moments after the murder), or to see if its rifling matches 
that on the fully intact bullet they recovered from MLK.

According to the show, to this day they refuse to allow any 
tests of this sort to be done on the rifle.  "The case is
closed", I guess.

Jim Del Vecchio
From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun engineering & materials info needed
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:22 GMT


In article <199301230541.AA00642@sun.Panix.Com>, justice@Panix.Com (Michael
Justice) wrote:
# 
# Regrettably, I am a software nerd, not a mechanical engineer.
# ("Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a _________!")

There's your problem right there.  You'll need your sketches turned into
engineering drawings, structural analysis, material selection, machine shop
work, etc. etc. etc.  Got any M.E. buddies?

Think of it like an M.E. having an idea for a CAD package and wanting to
read a few books on programming, UNIX, etc. etc.

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]
From: bhmd1464@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FOR SALE:44 dbl barrel pistol
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:11 GMT
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

I have a double barrel 44 pistol for sale.
It is Nickel Plated and has rabbit ear hammers.
I have no idea who manufactured it and I won't know until
I get it out of my safe deposit box.  The gun belonged to
my grandfather and was never fired to my knowledge.  It is
in excellent shape.

I haven't held the gun since I put it in my safe deposit box over
10 years ago but I don't remember it having any identification on
it at all although a gun enthusiast friend of mine keeps assuring
me that there MUST be SOMEthing on it.  I have looked in a couple
of books that list and illustrate all sorts of guns but I haven't
come across anything like it yet.  Anyone with any info that will
help me can e-mail me for more details.

Once again... the gun is for sale, and I'm not one of those tight
wad collectors who wants 10 times the value of their merchandise.


Brian Acosta
bhmd1464@selu.edu
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns used in assassinations
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:25:16 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1k14slINN4nm@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM> David.Bernard@Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:
#Didn't Ray plead guilty to the crime?  If so, there was no reason
#for anyone to do any further testing.
#Note- Ray, in his new book, denies having been the trigger man, and
#in fact anything more than a patsy (while admittedly a two-bit hood).

This reminds one of the recent Supreme Court ruling to the effect that
Federal courts couldn't take new evidence into account after a convicted
defendant had received his "fair trial", brought up in response to a case
of a prisoner on death row being at a late date cleared by witnesses of
the crime for which he had earlier pleaded guilty.  Without judging the
merits of any particular case, it does seem that there are many "guilty"
pleas made by innocent defendants under pressure.  The prosecution is
also under pressure, to obtain convictions WHETHER OR NOT justice is
truly served.  Genuine justice would demand that all available evidence
be weighed to determine the probable truth of a case; compared to the
overall costs of prosecuting a case, the small additional expenditure
for ballistics testing would certainly have been justified, and the only
reason I can think of that it wasn't done would be that the prosecutors
were not confident that they had the right man but were going after a
conviction anyway.

[MODERATOR:  Should we follow up to this legal line then I suggest we
take it to misc.legal or whereever, okay....? Thanks]
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why ? (Hand in Pocket)
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:28 GMT
Organization: Columbia University


#If your off hand moves, it throws off your balance.  (If the TV tech's
#hand moves, he probably gets zapped.)

Well, yes, sort of.  If the hand that's inside your set moves, he
probably gets zapped, whether or not his other hand is in his pocket.
The difference is in the quality of the zap.  The reason why the TV
tech (or a radio amateur working on the 2000 volt power supply for his
transmitting amplifier) has his hand in his pocket is that there, if
he happens to touch some high voltage with his other hand, he won't
complete a circuit from one hand to the other through the heart, which
would be virtually certain to kill him.  The jolt could still do him
in, but at least he's got a chance this way.  As for why the shooters
put their off hands in their pockets, I think a lot of people have
answered this question already, so I won't even try.
	-Steve, WB3I
From: jcbphoto@engin.umich.edu (John Clinton Bolyard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Atlanta Discount Ammo Address etc. Request
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:07 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

Does anyone out there have this information - I'd greatly appreciate it!
From: 3196314@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Vic)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .44 Magnum Desert Eagle info request
Date: 23 Jan 93 15:59:32 GMT


I would like to solicit the net for your opinions on a .44 magnum Desert
Eagle.  A friend of mine knows of someone who may be selling theirs
for about $800 Cdn.  Used, but apparently in rather good condition.

If you have any likes/hates/reports or peeves about this weapon then
please EMAIL me.  Thanks,

Vic Thompson
3196314@QUCDN.QueensU.CA
From: mac@cis.ksu.edu (Myron A. Calhoun)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:12 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University

basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
#callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#>>...  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
#>>around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads...

For my around-the-house protection .357 Magnum pistols I use
"POLICE CARTRIDGES .38 SPECIAL" (that's the writing on the box)
manufactured by 3-D INV., INC., Doniphan, Nebraska.
(For the curious, they are 158 Gr. Lead Round Nose.)
--Myron.
-- 
# We preserve our freedoms using four boxes:  soap, ballot, jury, and cartridge.
# Myron A. Calhoun, PhD EE; Assoc. Professor  (913) 539-4448 home
# INTERNET: mac@cis.ksu.edu (129.130.10.5)          532-6350 work, 532-7353 fax
#     UUCP: ...rutgers!depot!mac     Packet-BBS: W0PBV @ K0VAY.#NEKS.KS.USA.NAOM
From: dc@maths.tcd.ie (Daniel Carroll)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: hand shake
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:01:10 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.


   What would you experrts out there recomend to someone with a slight
shake in their hand.I myself suffer from this inheireted disease and i
would like to know if there is a way of increasing the accuracy of 
my shot.
 All replies would be greatly appreciated.
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:16 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com (Stephen Camp) writes:

# Well, I recently saw "Marked for Death" where Seagal off's the Jamaican posse
# I was impressed.  There seemed to be far fewer gaff's here than in other film
# such as Lethal Weapon I, II, III.

Didn't the part where he used the silenced rifle bother you? Even with
a supressor on the rifle, there should a been a crack from the bullet
traveling supersonic. They made a similar mistake in Terminator 2.

# But overall, I was impressed by the firearms handling by the good guys anyway
# in "Marked for Death."  What other films have you folks been impressed by?
# (Seagal or otherwise)

The best all time movie as far as correct firearms handling is
"Tremors". If you haven't seen it, check it out; especially the rec
room scene.


(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting under water?
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:18 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:


#In article <1jl3bdINNstt@shelley.u.washington.edu>, basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
#- As you point out, you have to worry about the difference in pressure
#- between the inside and outside of the barrel, not the absolute pressure
#- of either (within reason).  Since the pressure outside is 14.7 psi and
#- the pressure inside is much higher, reducing outside pressure to zero
#- is equivalent to only a small percentage change in the pressure differential
#- and wouldn't be significant.

#However, the column of water in the barrel is MUCH less compressible than
#the normal corresponding column of air.  Thus the bullet will meet more
#resistance moving down the barrel and so the internal volume will be less
#at any given point during the powder combustion.  This should indeed lead
#to higher chamber pressure.  How much higher, I don't know.

Sorry, I thought we were still in air.  The external pressure will be 
dependent on the depth at which the gun is held.  You're right, internal
pressures will be much higher.
You won't catch me firing any guns under water.

David Basiji
UW Bioengineering
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Identify this sight?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:59 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I have this rear sight for a 1911 standard dovetail
that has two vertical set screws to hold it into place.
It's not vertically adjustable, but can be moved side
to side by loosening the two set screws. 

It's got the horizontally serrated front surface like a Bo-Mar,
and all the edges are rounded. There is a symbol that sort of looks
like this
 ____
|   o|
| nnn|
 ----

on the top of the sight.

Does anyone know who makes this sight? 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RFI:getting a 9mm (not SIG, not Glock)
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:38 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


I am considering getting a 9mm pistol for home defense and possibly
concealed carry. I already own a .270 rifle for hunting and a Ruger MkII
for plinking.  I am reasonably well-versed in the local laws and have
generally integrated the concept of being armed, with the implications
for the use of deadly force, into my worldview. Even my wife is getting
more comfortable with my "hobby" and is comitted to becoming knowledgeable
wrt firearms use and safety since they're in the apartment.

My uncle has a mint Beretta 92FS compact with 3 mags and holster that he
would sell me for a good price, assuming it fits me (I've never shot it.)
I'd like to know peoples' experiences with this and other makes and models.
I've ruled out the SIG because of its cost and the Glock because of its
safety/DAO. The Glock is still intriguing due to its reputation for reliability
and relative accuracy but I prefer an active safety (I realize it doesn't
make the gun "safe" but I prefer it to be there and engaged), despite my
preference for condition three (loaded mag, nothing in the chamber).
Other readily available options include the Taurus 92 ($350 new, locally)
which feels really good in my hand, and the Ruger which is big but also
feels good as well as being cheap and American made.

My concerns are (in order): Size, Accuracy, Cost, Reliability.

Since it may be used as a carry gun, I'd prefer something smaller.
While I realize that these are combat guns, I feel a gun should be accurate
(< 2" groups at 25 yards) or it's not worth having. Cost is an issue. I'm
a student and will have to struggle to get one of these weapons but I'm
more concerned with the cost of use than the cost of the purchase.  That's
one of the reasons I'm considering 9mm primarily.  The ammo seems to be
relatively cheap. Another draw to my uncle's Beretta is the possibility of
a payment plan. WRT reliability, I'm fanatical about cleaning and maintenance
and don't need a gun that will go 2000 rounds without attention.  I put
more faith in a gun that can successfully load and eject round after round.

I will shortly be going to a range that rents guns so I can get a feel for
these beasts but any net.wisdom you can provide would be appreciated. For
the moderator's sake and because it's probably an old, old question, please
respond by email.  I'll summarize if there's interest.

Thanks,
David Basiji
basiji@u.washington.edu
From: tjhellye@iastate.edu (Timothy J Hellyer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FOR SALE
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:22 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University

I have an Anshutz 1403D for sale or possibly trade.  Included are front
handstop and shooting sling. 

Please contact me by e-mail or phone if you would like to make an offer.

Tim Hellyer
515-296-2371
From: laird@pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New Walther PPK/S
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:00:36 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

mjc5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Cavotta) writes:


#	Anyway, for those of you out there who own and love Walthers, you
#can count another among your fold.  If you have any tips for me regarding
#ammo and other pistol-peculiarities let me know...

	1) If you have big hands (I don't), watch out (and keep Band-Aids
		handy).

	2) Buy good magazines.  I thought I did, but I have two that
		release when the pistol is fired.  QUITE ANNOYING!

	3) Have fun with holsters.  The PPK/S is versatile.  I've even
		made an "in-the-pocket" holster for a pair of baggy pants
		using two diving knife leg bands.

Enjoy!

--kyler

Happiness is applying for the second (four year) carry license without
being able to cite an example of having to use the first one.
From: chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:42:00 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, Department of Electrical Engineering

In article <JANECZKO.93Jan20222918@csd630a.erim.org> janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko) writes:
#I recently bought a S&W model 686 (i.e. Stainless steel 6" .357) for both 
#protection and hunting.  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
#around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads.  His 
#reason was that if by chance you end up killing a perp. with a handloaded
#cartridge, the prosecuting lawyer might portray you using excessive force.

All my spent brass looks the same.  How would you determine that the cartridge
wasn't a factory load?  If you point a gun at someone, you damn well better be
prepared to live with the consequences of your bullet penetrating his body, and
killing him.

#...
#Another point my father made that I guess makes sense is that when loading a 
#clip  (doesn't apply in my case, at least not yet :-)  you should 
#"fingerprint-proof" your bullets.  This can be done by loading the clip with a 
#glove on or use a towel when loading.  This gives one less piece of evidence 
#tieing you to the gun.  It may not help, but why give the prosecutor any kind 
#of edge.

If I were the prosecutor, and I saw that the defendant had wiped his
fingerprints off of the bullets in the "murder" weapon, the first thing
I would think of is premeditation.

Chuck Harris
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hangun stopping power: best .45 round
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:35 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

For the gentleman who was asking about loads for his Glock .45, the
best (according to _Handgun Stopping Power_ ) is the 230 gr. Federal
Hydra Shok. I think it ranks something like 88%.

David A. Horton
University of Alabama
From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Interstate Sales (Re: buying outside of state
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:00:05 GMT


All I was stating was, that interstate, in person, sales of LONG GUNS were
not prohibited by FEDERAL law.  Obviously, state laws can prevent this.

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]
From: J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger M77 MkII triggers
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:27 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU


roa@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Robert O. Anderson) writes:

#anyone know if the Ruger Mark II's have an adjustable trigger (internal) 
#like the Remington 700's?? 

No, they cannot be adjusted. My M77 MkKII has a trigger pull of around
7lbs which sounds horrific but I can get sub-MOA 4 shot groups with it.
I spoke to Timney (replacement triggers) and they are working on a
replacement trigger for the MkII (already make one for the MkI) and
it'll be ready this time next year. In the meantime, they offered to "do
a job" on the original trigger - but the problems of transporting the
rifle between UK & USA nake it impractical.

--Jonathan
From: ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:41:45 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

(Mike Janeczko) writes:
[snip]
#"fingerprint-proof" your bullets.  This can be done by loading the clip with a
#glove on or use a towel when loading.  This gives one less piece of evidence
#tieing you to the gun.  It may not help, but why give the prosecutor any kind
#of edge.

    Planning the perfect murder?  Read too many mystery novels lately?

    One would hope, now that you are a law-abiding gun owner, that you would
take responsibility for what you do with your guns.  If you choose to shoot
your perp, take responsibility for that action.  Don't shoot if it's not
justified.  Sheesh!
-- 

****************************************
**     Kent P. Aitchison              **
**       ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu       **
**       Rauch Business Center 211    **
**       #37 Lehigh University        **
**       Bethlehem, PA  18015         **