HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras)
Newsgroups: soc.human.rights,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Greek justice towards a Jehovah Witness.
Keywords: Human rights,Greece, religious discrimination
Date: 3 Oct 92 16:17:10 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <9210030201.AA26092@cc.UMontreal.CA> sebr@iro.umontreal.CA (Sebastien Racine *Rocker*) writes:

>     Hi,

>     I heard that public advocation of religions in
>     Greece was strictly prohibited according to a
>     law (1939). Greek Orthodox church is allowed to
>     make propoganda of any kind, on the other hand
>     any public activity of other religious branches
>     is strictly prohibited. Yesterday I have learned

Rubbish... The Greek Orthodox Church is the official church
(like the Church of England in England, etc), with >95% of the
population Orthodox. However, no prosyletizing (=brain washing)
is allowed by *anyone*. For more, watch the latest video of the
group "Genesis" (song: "Jesus, he knows me"), or call (USA)
1-800-GEN-ESIS for more information.

>     that a friend of mine working for our organization
>     in Greece was prosecuted because of his religious
>     beliefs. We, Jehovahs' Witnesses strongly protest this

Rubbish again. You can beleive in whatever (even in nothing and
be an atheist).

>     behaviour of the Greek government. While allowing TV
>     programs and prayers for orthodox church but
>     prohibiting other religious TV programs, talking
>     about democracy is useless.

Not true. The Greek Orthodox Church (and not the
religion/dogma) represents an istitution as far as the Law
is concerned. In practice, it is a part of the Greek identity
(the name speaks for itself) for ~2,000 years and this will not
change, just because some people (especially non-Greeks) want it
this way. On the other hand the real issue, behind all this is
the dodging of military service. Some people only remember
Democracy when it comes down to rights and not obligations.

>     We strongly protest such a law in an EC country
>     which must be assumed to be democratic.
>     Why was Greece accepted to the EC, anyway?

Who is "We"? As to why Greece was accepted in the EEC, well,
read your second line.

>     My best regards,
>     ---
>     SR

With  all due respect

Panayotis
--
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Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: GREEKS : THE TIME TO ORGANIZE YOUR PR IS NOW !
Date: 25 Sep 92 21:48:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>From: pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic)  !
>  You must spread your side of the story before it is too late.  You
>can't let the Skopjans and Tukrs get an upper hand on you.  Write to
>the major newspapers; organize rallies; let the West know the truth
>about Hellenic Macedonia.

  Milan's point is right on the money. The Greek government in Athens
does not seem to be fully aware of the weight of "Consumer Opinion" in
politics, esp in America. Us Greek Americans have ended up doing the
whole job by ourselves. Our first step was to work directly in the
government level by lobying both parties. In the past, pro-Greek
legislators like Ted Kennedy would complain that there was
not enough Greek presence in the Hill to generate interest for Cyprus.
Today, the "congresman from Ankara" Steven Solarz stands disgracefully
defeated, largely thanks to the Greek efforts. Bob Abrahams, a man I
respect not only for his views on Cyprus/Macedonia, but for his views
on internal political matters as well, won the Democratic senatorial
primary in NY by only 5,000 or so votes. He would have lost had not all
the Greek organisations in NY mounted a full-blast campaign to bring
thousands of Greek voters to the ballots.

  The one area that needs improvement is promoting our views in the
American newspapers and the other Media. While we have convinced many
newspapers not to paste the word "Macedonia" over the country that has
no right to use that name, many others still do so. And the coverage
from the area has been minimal; although the NY Times had an excellent
article a few months ago, portions of which I have re-posted here.


Michael
           
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9391 soc.culture.europe:8708 eunet.politics:1396
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Why Macedonia is Greek
Date: 30 Sep 92 08:53:07 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <BvDG88.KHE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
> 
>                             WHY MACEDONIA IS GREEK

[article deleted]
> 
> Panos Tamamidis
> 
> P.S.:  The facts for this article were taken from "The falsification of
>        Macedonian History," by Nikolaos Martis, published in 1983. Mr. Martis, 
>        a Macedonian himself, was a member of the parliament of Greeks from 
>        1974 to 1981.  Mr. Martis was the minister of Northern Greece during
>        the above period.  The book is dated, in its omission of recent more
>        forceful claims by the Skopjens.

I think this is now becoming a dialogue of the deaf.

An impassioned restatement of the position you started with is not an
argument.

The fact that you very much want something to be true doesn't increase
the chances that it is true.

If there are people out there who are interested in the real debates
which are going on about the interpretation of ancient evidence (debates
which are much more interesting, and which in my view reflect more
credit on the Greek people, than the fairy tales produced by the
propaganda sausage machines
on both sides), then I'm very happy to exchange views with them. 
But life is too short to read slogans, however long.

Shouting slogans may make you feel good, but I don't think it has ever
persuaded anyone of anything.

Richard Wallace
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 26 Sep 92 08:48:19 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Sep26.011849.16325@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, by 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU:
>>I'm not going to be side tracked into a discussion of Northern Ireland
>>though I'll be happy to talk about in the right foru
> 
> 	This is the right forum and that is a critical question.

Then why's it not called soc.culture.british or soc.culture.irish? BTW
Early Irish legend has the De Danaan coming and killing a king of Greece
to steal his pig (I think this was the property concerned). Are you sure
you're on the right side as I suspect you're a historicist?

> You seem to forget abot the case of the
> seven Irish men that went to prison for quite a few years because the police
> doctored the evidence to please the people that want a conviction. A conviction
> of inosent people as it turned out.
> 

Once again, though it clearly isn't a Balkans proverb, two wrongs don't
make a right. Whatever has happened in Britain, it still doesn't justify breeches of
human rights in Greece. Moreover once again there is a sharp difference.

You are talking about the outcome of the judicial procedure, what is
important here is *why* the OSE activists should be on trial in the
first place.
Whatever the outcome of the trial in Britain of the Birmingham 6 and the (in)justice of its
outcome, the reasons for bringing the case to trial and the reasons the
Greek government is putting the OSE activists on trial are completely different.The Birmingham 6 were arrested and tried
on charges of blowing up a pub which caused a
large amount of death, that, I hope, seems a reasonable cause to arrest and try someone
for, it is manifestly criminal o act in this way. Can you seriously
equate such actions with the reason for putting the OSE activists on
trial - publication of a pamphlet which didn't even
advocate violence. I can only regret you can't see the difference
between argument and murder. I hope we can now bury this side issue and
discuss the matter in hand.


Andy
From: statlab1@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: ignore!!testing!!
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:43:29 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

ignore!!this is only a test!!!!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
From: pnevmati@milhouse.cs.wisc.edu (Dionisios N. Pnevmatikatos)
Subject: Re: EC AND TURKEY....
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:11:52 GMT

scgeoff@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (GEOFF ELLIOTT) writes:

>> 
>>Ahhhh. Democracy is such a difficult concept for some......
>> 
>>|> Why don't the Europeans simply admit that they
>>|> have a racist feeling against Turks and be done with it????
>>|> 
>>|> Eniste!
>> 
>>Aleck

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it democracy when one member of the EC can 
>keep out new members? In other words, only ONE "no" keeps a nation out!

Well, does USA has a democracy or not? Does the United Nations work in
a democratic fashion or not? There is a veto in both US goverment and also
for the permenent members of the UN security council (if I'm not mistaken).

If you can sincerily answer NO to both the questions, I will accept that
it might not be democratic. Of course you might say that it's OK for
superpowers to have veto power but not for poor Greece. Do you think so?
If yes, please come out and say so, just to have things straight around
here.

Also, Greece claims national security reasons. Would you really think
that at this point time it would be a good idea for any of the two to have
open borders with the other one? I think we have enough trouble already,
let's get these solved first...

I would really like to see such a vote take place. It has been mentioned to
this group before that the Germans for example wouldn't be extremly happy
to have open borders with Turkey. I just would like to see if Greece is
just a convinient excuse or it's really the only one that objects.

BTW, I really don't like the veto idea, but apparently other people do.

Dionisis

PS Seeing that you work for the US goverment (nasa.gov) I find it really
funny that you brought up the subject of veto in the EEC. Talking about
double standards...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Subject: re: hippocritic oath?
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:19:34 GMT

Someone wrote commenting on the hippocritic oath:

>>(oath)
>>(I will never give a deadly medicine, even if I asked to,
>>neither will I give advice for such a medicine.
>>Similarly, I will never give an abortive medicine to a woman.
>>I will keep my life and art pure and holy.)
>
>
>       Of the whole oath the above impressed me most. They seem timeless
>and very applicable for today !!!
>

Gee. You mean to say ancient Greeks (TM) invented such a medicine? Man,
we could market it and live off the royalties, much like the Kuwaitis
live off the oil. 

The French found the recipe centuries later, it's called RU-486...

Spiros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Proselytism
Keywords: religion, Greece
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:21:59 GMT

In article <BvA5En.DIr@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla02@keele (R. Wallace) writes:
>
>There is a report this morning in the Independent newspaper of an
>individual (a Jehovah's Witness) being prosecuted in Greece under a law
>dating back to 1938 prohibiting proselytisation by any religious group
>in Greece except the Greek Orthodox Church.
>
>Is this true? Does the law exist? How is it applied?
>
>Jehovah's Witnesses are, of course, a special case becase of their
>opposition to military service, but the article claimed that this
>prohibtion extends to all religious groups, including Roman Catholics
>and Protestants.
>
>There are, are there not, places in Greece where there are substantial
>numbers of Roman Catholics. How does this legislation affect them?
>
>Please note (to anticipate irate respnses) that I am not a Jehovah's
>Witness or a Roman Catholic (or indeed a member of any religious
>organisation which goes in for agressive proselytisation). I just want
>to know.
>
>Does the ban affect non-Christian religions? No, this is not a hidden
>question on the treatment of Muslims in Greece! It has just occurred to
>me that I have never ever in a Greek city seen little lines of bald
>people wearing sheets and chanting 'Hare Krishna'. Could they if they
>wanted to?
>
>Does the ban extend to propagating Atheism?

	I don't think there is a problem on that. But although not a positive
point about Greek law. I did note once that their is an exception on devorce
procedings in the case were one of the perents of the family is a strict
jahova witness then they will be considered negatively in terms of custody !!
ie. if the mother forgets her family duties in favour of her religeous duties.
This was an exception specificaly for jehowa beleavers not all relegeons.
Also conserning proselytisation, I think it is ileagal in Greece on all counts.
But for the orthodox relegeon ther is no such thing because of the great
number of Orthodox cristians. ie. beond 90% so the law does not come into 
effect. there are no large enough pokets of no orthodox cristians and the
ones that exist (Like Muslems) are not affected by such a thing.
Prosylitisation in Greece is looked upon lik brain washing.
	George




>
>Richard Wallace.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cla02@keele (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Proselytism
Keywords: religion, Greece
Date: 28 Sep 92 08:39:58 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Keele University, England


There is a report this morning in the Independent newspaper of an
individual (a Jehovah's Witness) being prosecuted in Greece under a law
dating back to 1938 prohibiting proselytisation by any religious group
in Greece except the Greek Orthodox Church.

Is this true? Does the law exist? How is it applied?

Jehovah's Witnesses are, of course, a special case becase of their
opposition to military service, but the article claimed that this
prohibtion extends to all religious groups, including Roman Catholics
and Protestants.

There are, are there not, places in Greece where there are substantial
numbers of Roman Catholics. How does this legislation affect them?

Please note (to anticipate irate respnses) that I am not a Jehovah's
Witness or a Roman Catholic (or indeed a member of any religious
organisation which goes in for agressive proselytisation). I just want
to know.

Does the ban affect non-Christian religions? No, this is not a hidden
question on the treatment of Muslims in Greece! It has just occurred to
me that I have never ever in a Greek city seen little lines of bald
people wearing sheets and chanting 'Hare Krishna'. Could they if they
wanted to?

Does the ban extend to propagating Atheism?

Richard Wallace.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:59:11 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Sep29.070632.195374@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, by dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS):
> In article <BvApKE.ErF@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
> writes:

[deletions]
> 
> Observe here that it was an Australian who wrote the two first lines, not a
> Greek - yet Mr. Andy T. Fear promptly snatches the opportunity to sneer and
> deride, who else? The Greeks again, with his most thoughtful comment on Greek
> philosophy! How touching of him...

No! It's just that Fear never reads anything before reacting to it!
> 
> It further appears here that Mr. Andy T. Fear, that illustrious bastion of
> supreme knowledge, 

As one who has on several occasions had to expose the inadequacies of
Andy Fear's scholarship in public, I can't go along with this. The lad
will get ideas above his station.

>is having trouble with his own mother tongue. A short
> lesson in English 101 is therefore in order. The word "critical" is not
> necessarily associated with the connotations he thinks of, does not
> necessarily mean "with thought, with reservations". More often than not, it
> means "of great importance" - which is the meaning implied here. Ergo, no
> contradiction in terms exists. 

With great respect, I think there is some unfamiliarity with English
idiom here. Perhaps you ought to enrol for a refresher course. I had
assumed that 'critical' was a typing error for 'uncritical' - which would
make sense. 

> -- 
> ------------------------    "Avnr Ellnv basileus Makedovwv"
> += Dimitris Kouvatsos *=    "[I am] Greek man king of the Macedonians"
> <dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
> ------------------------                    -- Alexander III the Great

By the way, what do you think the above quotation demonstrates?
"A Greek man" (because descended from Argives who everybody knows are
Greeks) "king of the Macedonians" (quite another set of people who
aren't descended from Argives at all, and whose status as Greeks is very dodgy)

If I wanted to argue that Macedonians were not Greeks (which I don't -
see previous postings) I would probably use the quotation as evidence on
my side.

Would there be any support for sending follow-ups to a new group to be
called 'talk.bizarre.Fear'?

Richard Wallace
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: MACEDONIA
Date: 26 Sep 92 21:32:16 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com) writes:
>>I asked for confirmation. Not more Greek propaganda.
>
> I told you what the Albanians say. What makes the Albanian statements
>"Greek Propaganda"?

If the Albanians say it is not Greek propaganda. However, whether
they say so or not is hitherto unconfirmed Greek propaganda.

>>When was the last time Greece had a referendum on its name?
>
> 1974. (Helliniki Demokratia Vs. Vassilion Tis Ellados).
>
>Erland, you keep making somewhat of a fool out of yourself.

And I will continue. The first name seems to mean something
Democratic Greece, but I have to admit being about the second.
However, it seems that the main word is actually the same in both,
though differently spelled and affixed. Was there any proposal
which did not contain "(H)ellas" or any form thereof? Would anyone
propose such a name and be taken seriously?

> You have claimed that American Indians do not protest the misuse of
>their names in today's America.

No, I didn't. I only pointed out that several of the states in
the US have their names of Indian origin. Rest of the ideas of
what I "claimed" was invented by your and your fellow countrymen.

> You claim that Greece has no right to protest the name of another
>country. Why does the U.N. recognise P.R.China's right to forbid Taiwan
>from calling itself "China"? The rules that apply for the Chinese can
>also apply here.

There is a very, very important difference between Taiwan and Macedonia.
The government in Taiwan claims to the be the legal government of the 
entire China, not only the island they actually control. This distinguishes
them not only from Macedonia who makes no such claims over Greece or any
other country (even through Greek propaganda tries to tell us otherwise),
but also the two Koreas and the formerly two Germanys.

Instead it is much more reasonable to compare with the cases Benin/
Nigeria, Azerbaijan/Iran, Luxemburg/Belgium or Moldova/Roumania.
Furthermore I'm curious what the names of Slovenia (Slovenija in
Slovenian) and Slovakia (Slovensko in Slovak) are the other country's
respective language. We can also consider the case of Ireland and 
Northern Ireland, where the former state has constitutional claims 
on the latter.
              
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scgeoff@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (GEOFF ELLIOTT)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: EC AND TURKEY....
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:35:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

> 
>Ahhhh. Democracy is such a difficult concept for some......
> 
>|> Why don't the Europeans simply admit that they
>|> have a racist feeling against Turks and be done with it????
>|> 
>|> Eniste!
> 
>Aleck

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it democracy when one member of the EC can 
keep out new members? In other words, only ONE "no" keeps a nation out!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: A GERMAN IN GREECE!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:32:49 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>More than happy to admit my general ignorance of things to do with the
>USA, I never have found that country of interest.
>.....
>...is still not at all the same as trying to hijack a
>country's name for one's own country's exclusive use, a considerably
>less laudable project.
>... paranoia does seem to describe the Greek government's propaganda campaign quite well.

 I can't understand why people are keep replying to Mr. Fear.
 Perhaps, it is his behavior that pisses most people.

 However, there is no point in replying to this person. 
 So, leave him alone.  After all, this feeling is familiar to him ...  

>Andy

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject: Anazhteitai o M. Skordilhs
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 08:32:09 GMT

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From dk0a@Lehigh.EDU  Fri Sep 25 20:10:41 1992
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From: dk0a@Lehigh.EDU (Dimitrios Kouvatsos)
Subject: Anazhteitai o M. Skordilhs
To: macedonia@husc.harvard.edu
Cc: hellas@uga.bitnet, soc-culture-greek-post

Opoios kserei thn dieuthynsh tou Mixalh Skordilh parakalw na mou th steilei -
thelw na tou zhthsw epeigontws kapoio source (xontrozal etc quotes) gia
net-maxes... Mixalh an diabaseis auto, please steile mou e-mail.

------------------------    "This is the greatest planet on the face of
+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=     the earth"
<dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
------------------------           -- Vice President J. Danforth Quayle


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek