From: ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu (Wm. L. Ranck)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: My bike got vandalized last night
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:08:16 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

kretz@remus.rutgers.edu (Kevin Kretz) writes:
: In article <6015@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>, ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu (Wm. L. Ranck) writes:
: >    This is the kind of logic that really bugs me.  Why the *hell* should
: > the bar be liable?
: 
: Because they let the guy get drunk, they let him go outside when he
: was obviously agitated, with other agitated people, and because any
: place of business is responsible for security in their parking area.
:
   Pure bullshit!  You want every place of business to have armed
Nazis patroling the parking lot?
 
: >  They didn't push your bike over.  They didn't do anything
: > to encourage the drunk to push it over.
: 
: Pouring tequila into an idiot seemed to be encouraging.
: NJ has very strict bar liability laws.  I know, I've bartended here
: for 5 years, and I managed a bar for about a year.   
:
   If you know so much about NJ liability laws why the hell are you 
asking the net?
   By the way, I lived in NJ when they passsed that stupid law and
I thought it was fucked up then and I still think so.
 
: He was not.  However, if he was, the bar is still liable for making
: sure he doesn't do anything stupid.  I think this part of the law is
: questionable, but, not applied here. 
:
   So, if you are sound asleep some night and a drunk comes by and 
smashes up somebody's car that just happens to be parked in front of
you house you should feel obligated to pay for the damages? 

: It's not _my_ mistake, and a lack of security is certainly not bad luck.
:
   I wasn't trying to say that it was your mistake in this particular case,
It's just the general sort of attitude that I don't like and you are 
purpetuating it.
 
: 
: >  The *drunk* owes you for the repairs, not the
: > bar.
: 
: I think the drunk owes me first, but that the bar was partially to
: blame. That is why I filed the complaint.  Since the guy had no ID,
: I think my chances are slim of seeing him in court.  Obviously, if the
: guy pays me, I'd be happier.  I don't see that happening, and I'm not
: getting stuck for the couple hundred bucks it's going to cost me.
:
   Hey, life's tough.  The bar didn't do anything to you and they
shouldn't owe you dick.  Again, NJ law might see it different, but
that doesn't make it right. 
 
: 	But it's not only bars.  If someone bashed into your car at
: ShopRite (or wherever you buy food) and left, doing considerable
: damage, would you say "Oh, well, it's bad luck, it's not the
: supermarket's fault so I won't say anything?"  I doubt it.  If this guy
: disappears, it's the same thing.
:
   Yes, I would be pissed off.  Yes, I would try to find the person who
did it.  I would *not* try to blame or collect from the store unless
they were holding a special "Demolition Derby Day" in their lot.
    I'm sorry your bike got damaged.  I hope you nail the guy that
did it.  I just don't see why you think some poor bar owner who is
just trying to run his business should foot the bill.

: 	If you offer goods or a service for profit, you are inviting
: the public to park on your property, and you are liable for their
: safety and the safety of their property.  This may be abused
: sometimes, by people saying damage occurred somewhere it didn't to
: collect money for their own mistakes, but it's a sound principle when
: honestly applied (like here).
:
   Agreed, within limits.  The law does not require anything beyond
what is called "reasonable and prudent". If there are gaping 3ft
deep potholes in the lot and your suspension gets damaged then
the business has a resposibility.
If the bar had a regular 
problem with people brawling in the lot and damaging vehicles then
you have a point.  But, you shouldn't be able to hold them responsible
for an unforseeable chain of events.  I know you're going to say that
it *was* forseeable, but that is what you will have to hire a lawyer
and go to court about if you insist on collecting from the bar. 
   Personally, I'd do my damndest to collect from the drunk, or my
insurance (if I had coverage), but I wouldn't even try to collect
from the bar.
   
    This is just my personal opinion and I really am sorry about your
bike.
 
--

*******************************************************************************
* Bill Ranck     DoD #496  ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu                            *
*******************************************************************************