HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:09:21 GMT

In article <54930@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) writes:

>In article <LERNER.92Jul21122239@division.cs.columbia.edu>
lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

>> Proof perfect that Reform does not know where it is, and the searching Jew
>> ought to be aware of this.

>I consider this an argument for Reform.  When we know exactly what we 
>should be doing, we are dead.

If this is some sort of dig at Orthodoxy, it is baseless.  There is no
part of the Jewish religion that claims to know of every possible
activity, now or in the future, that could occur, let alone that claims
to know what to do in these eventualities.  On the other hand,
Orthodoxy does claim a system which can be used to guide decisions
about any new technologies, events, or problems that do come up.  This
system is far more rigorous than the litmus test of "is it relevant to
me?" (let alone "is it convenient for me?").
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: leel@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Lee Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Hebrew vocabulary cards and sunday school teaching
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:44:58 GMT

I have a set of _Biblical_ Hebrew vocabulary cards which I got
from the Colorado University at Boulder's bookstore.

The set has 1000 flashcards with a total of 1200 words.
All nouns, adjectives and verbs appearing 25 times in Hebrew Bible
are included plus common adverbs, prepositions, and particles.

Copyright 1981 by Vis-Ed: 
  Visual Education Assiciation, Springfield, Ohio 45501
  Author: Raymond B. Dillard, Ph.D.
  ISBN 1-55637-009-1

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Vis-Ed or it's author.

I hope this info is useful to you or others. 
P.S. The flashcards were relatively inexpensive, under $15 if I recall.

Lev Lawrence
leel@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:51:01 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
>gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:

>>I want my kids to have the same.  That's one reason I do not restrict
>>my friends to Orthodox Jews.  My kids will see that I don't discriminate
>>and, I hope, they will deport themselves in like manner.  On the other
>>hand, I will give my children a complete Jewish education as well, without
>>trying to rationalize the alternative.  If school is the only way your
>>kids can have contact with people of different races and religions --
>>or different levels of observance within Judaism, for that matter --
>>then perhaps you should reexamine the way you interact with people
>unlike yourself.

>First off: I don't have kids yet; I was speaking hypothetically.

>Secondly: I have lots of contact with people from other ethnic groups -
>mostly at work, but also at the social level.  My wife (Canadian)
>comes from a Chinese background, although she did convert before we
>got married.

I have to apologize here.  I realized as soon as I sent this that any
response would have to be of the form, "Some of my best friends are ..."
You've proved my fears correct.

>However, kids spend a lot of time at school, and most of
>their friendships are developed at school.

No argument.  Nevertheless, if a child sees his/her parents interact with
"like" people only, he/she will have an unfortunate model to emulate.

>>They'll learn more from your example, and less from
>>being deprived of their own distinct heritage.

>Sure, I think I do set a good example.  But perhaps the same argument
>could be applied to learning Jewish identity?  You see the problem?  If
>you feel that "a good example" is not sufficient to ensure a strong Jewish
>identity, then you understand why I feel that direct contact at school
>with children from other backgrounds is important.

I guess I think of the "be a good person" stuff as something that must
be learned by example, and cannot be taught from books.  Conversely, I
think the tradition, history and culture of Judaism need a more formalized
approach.  Yes, of course my children should experience my love and
concern for Judaism, and there is no substitute for that.  But it's
not enough.  They will miss out on all but a "feeling" for it if I skip
the formal education.

If my children never attended school, I think they would grow up as
"good" people.  And I truly believe I could even provide a decent
education for them, given the time (which, unfortunately, I don't
envision having in sufficient quantity).  Without the necessary time
to educate them at home, I must send my kids to school.  That is where
they will get the book knowledge.  A modicum of derekh eretz would be
nice too, but that's where our greatest responsibility kicks in.

-Don Gertler
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:03:14 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <LERNER.92Jul21122239@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

			.......................

> Proof perfect that Reform does not know where it is, and the searching Jew
> ought to be aware of this.

I consider this an argument for Reform.  When we know exactly what we 
should be doing, we are dead.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Cannibal jokes (was Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...))
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:28:13 GMT
Summary: more silliness

In article <14mo9mINNi4h@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian
Sutin) writes:

> In article <dfs.711908466@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

> >In <1992Jul23.124344.16899@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
> >(samuel.saal) writes:

> >>"I hate my mother-in-law!"
> >>"Add a little salt," said the second cannibal.

> >Did you hear about the cannibal who passed his friend in the woods?

> It occurs to me that, if a Jew who does not practice Judaism is a secular
> Jew, then perhaps we are all, in the end, secular cannibals.

Did you hear about the cannibal who loved children?
He just adored the platter of little feet.

Have we crossed the boundary of taste, yet?

Taste?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Kotel "kvitlach" by Fax ?
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:32:46 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem


Someone at work mentioned that in yesterday's MAARIV newspaper there was a
short note about Rabbi Getz (RAV HAKOTEL) getting "KVITLACH" (small pieces
of paper with written "requests" to be placed in the cracks of the rocks of
the Western Wall) by FAX. Did anybody (in Israel) see this ?
Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
From: boaz@concerto.lcs.mit.edu (Boaz Ben-Zvi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Travel on Tisha B'av
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:27:31 GMT
Reply-To: boaz@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

|> |> A friend is travelling to Italy during the first week of August.  She is
|> |> returning on Sunday, 9 August, which is Tisha B'av.
|> |> When does she fast?  When does she stop fasting?
 
|> If she is healthy, she probably has to fast about 31 hours total. She starts
|> Italy local time, and ends New York Local time.

|> |> Does anyone have an idea?

Yes. She should fly eastward (e.g. through Japan), thus getting away with
only about 16 fast hours ;-)

-- Boaz

===============================================================================
  _              _            __         __ ___  _ _   __ ___    ____      ___
 /_) _  _  __   /_) _   __ __ _/    o     |   |   \| __ |   |     /    \ |   |
/__)(_)(_|__/  /__)(_'_/ /   /__\/_(        __|_ __\    | __|_     \  __\| __|_
          __)                                           |                      
===============================================================================
 Boaz Ben-Zvi <boaz@lcs.mit.edu>     MIT Addr: NE43-526   Tel: (617) 253-6212 
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:19:49 GMT

In <9207311639.AA03141@robocop.NYU.EDU> baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU
(Jonathan Baker) writes:

>> Take a short (6-10 letters) Hebrew word.

>6-10 letters is pretty *long* as Hebrew words go,

Oops.  I meant "Hebrew phrase."

--
David S.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: shaatnez (was Re: food)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:13:32 GMT

m = murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
yk = kazan@corner.wpb.fl.us (yy kazan)
SO = ?

SO: There is also the question of the origin of "shatnez", which seems to
SO: have no Hebrew connections.

yk: Rashi explains that Shatnez is one word which comes from 3 words together -
yk: Shu-a, Tovi, Nuz. Woven in the form of Shesi Va-erev.

m = Are there any other sources besides Rashi?

Rashi takes it from Nida 61b.

I don't think that either the Gemara or Rashi necessarily think that the
etymology of Shaatnez is these three words - ficticious etymologies
are part of the Talmud's style of explaining unfamiliar words in a way
that the student will recall.

It is possible that the originator of the statement found in Nida knew
the exact roots of the word in an obscure dialect of proto-Akkadian or
whatever, then again, maybe not (n.b.  I am not calling into question
that the members of the Sanhedrin knew "seventy languages" - the
language in question might not have been spoken at the time of the
Talmud) but, since his interest was that people would remember what
Shaatnez means rather than to teach ancient ancient languages he made
up an etymology.

Or maybe this was already a folk etymology at the time of the Talmud
and was incorporated because it was useful.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish gauze pad.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is not all that paranoid.
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:45:47 GMT
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous

In article <FAIGIN.92Jul17134406@soldan.aerospace.aero.org>
faigin@aerospace.aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

>On 17 Jul 92 17:18:21 GMT, hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) said:

>> Is this omission deliberate or accidental?

>I was hesitant to use the phrase concerning behaviour between man and G-d, for
>the simple reason that opens an area of confusion. Reform used to distinguish
>between ethical and ritual acts, one being acts of the form man-to-man, the
>other being man-to-G-d. This distinction has been superceeded by the notion of
>increased study of the ritual to determine what adds sanctity to ones life.
>The ethical teachings are still heavily stressed, so some residue remains.
>Certain aspects of the man-to-G-d relationship are always present, regardless
>of the movement of Judaism (except, perhaps, for the secular humanist Jews).
>The more ritual acts are left to personal study and choice.

If there was ever a better argument for the problem of basing a
religion on current, transient social values, this is it.  Reform began
with Europe's "Enlightenment," emancipation, and the focus on man over
G-d.  Now, as people are again looking for spirituality, Reform
refocuses.  And that's only at the "macro" level.  Similar refocus
occured in Reform's outlook on the importance of Israel.  Initially,
Reform minimized the importance of Israel because they felt Judaism was
only a religion and Jews could only be citizens of one nation - the one
in which they resided.  Some Reform leaders, especially in the last
century and the early part of this one became almost militantly
anti-Israel (in the religious sense ONLY).  Yet now, fortunately, there
has been a reawakening of the Reform leadership to Israel's centrality
in Judaism.

Are these case of the Reform rabbinate following societal (and lay)
trends?  Any guesses about the next trends that will move Reform?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: davis@reaumur.ilog.fr (Harley Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: prices (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 31 Jul 92 10:48:46 GMT
	<1992Jul28.175007.20979@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
	<1992Jul29.121759.22644@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<1992Jul29.163536.6942@cs.ubc.ca>
Organization: ILOG S.A., Gentilly, France
In-reply-to: davef@cs.ubc.ca's message of 29 Jul 92 16:35:36 GMT


In article <1992Jul29.163536.6942@cs.ubc.ca> davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein) writes:

   >>>Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
   >>>this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 
   >>   Yes. A new mohel will often give a cut rate.
   >
   >I always thought prices were cheap enough: $5/hour ... plus tips.

   Which reminds me of a story my grandfather told me.

   It seems this non-jewish man was walking down the street.  On one shop
   window, he read "Daniel Benjamin, Mohel" and in the window there were
   displayed a number of very nice watches.  So, the man enters, and asks
   the fellow sitting there if he could buy one of the watches.

     "Sorry, I don't sell watches," was the Daniel's reply.

     "Then why do you have them displayed in your window?"

     "What *should* I display in my window?"

Cocktail glasses.

-- Harley Davis
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nom: Harley Davis			ILOG S.A.
net: davis@ilog.fr			2 Avenue Gallie'ni, BP 85
tel: (33 1) 46 63 66 66			94253 Gentilly Cedex, France
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jay@m5.chi.il.us (Jay F Shachter)
Subject: soc.culture.jewish
Reply-To: <jay@m5.chi.il.us (Jay F Shachter)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:03:59 GMT

I do not (yet) have the NetNews software running on my machine.
Is there any way I can get soc.culture.jewish, and perhaps also
other selected newsgroups, without getting all of NetNews?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

			Jay F Shachter
			6424 N Whipple St
			Chicago IL  60645-4111
				(1-312)7613784
				jay@m5.chi.il.us
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:28:19 GMT
Organization: Courant Institute, New York University

David Skoll writes (with movement names left out):

>I believe that the so-called "O-C-R" debate is ridiculous.  It is
>completely impossible for ____________ or ______ Jews to win such a
>debate, because those ________ who choose to flame are convinced that
>they are right and that there's no room for argument.  Any arguing
>must be done on their principles or it is rejected.

>So.  The best thing (IMO) is to ignore flames against ______ or
>____________ movements, because you cannot argue with someone
>convinced he know's G-d's viewpoint.  Instead, just keep doing what
>you believe is just and right.  Don't let it get to you!  Most of the
>________ Jews I know are a lot more tolerant than the few
>flame-throwers who stir up scj.

Substitute any of the following O C or R for any of the blanks above,
and David's post still makes sense.  He wrote it in a mode defensive of
the liberal movements, but proponents of *any* of the groups can be just
as offensive or defensive.  Remember the gentleman who kept making
claims for Conservative being a "legitimate interpretation" of Judaism?
From some of his other postings, it seems that Conservative is the *only*
legitimate interpretation of Judaism -- Reform was almost as bad as Orthodox.
Ms. Rivkis appears to be a proponent of Karaism, which for centuries was 
a large and viable offshoot (heresy?) of Judaism.  Her postings have
engendered the wrath of the Orthodoxy bigots, which in turn has engendered
the wrath of the Reform bigots (Orthodoxy is WRONG).  Every group has its 
bigots, but fortunately every group has its pluralists.

     ---+  ||  --+  --+
        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
     ---+-                          baker@robocop.nyu.edu
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared Unconstitutional
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:57:25 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul23.205544.8631@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>The NJ Supreme Court, ruling on a case involving the butcher I
>go to, voted 4-3 that the NJ kashrut laws violate the separation
>of church and state.
....
>While I don't know the details, the issues were over points that
>various Rabbis will give various opinions on; the court case was
>whether the state could enforce a specific set of Rabbinical opinions.

This is a bad miscarriage of Justice.  The Rabbis are not dictating
law.  The law simply states that products labeled as Kosher must
actually be Kosher.  No crossing of church/state here.  The Rabbi is
an expert witness who knows the laws of Kashrut.  Certainly, the court
doen't think that a lawyer with no knowledge of judaism is more
qualified than a Rabbi to clearly define what the laws of Kashrut are.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: sutin@ra.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Cannibal jokes (was Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...))
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:55:18 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <dfs.711908466@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <1992Jul23.124344.16899@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
>(samuel.saal) writes:
>
>>"I hate my mother-in-law!"
>>"Add a little salt," said the second cannibal.
>
>Did you hear about the cannibal who passed his friend in the woods?

It occurs to me that, if a Jew who does not practice Judaism is a secular
Jew, then perhaps we are all, in the end, secular cannibals.

Brian Sutin				sutin@helios.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:51:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T Engineering Research Center

In article <2349@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
referring to "R":

>I'm not aware of anything we O do (aside from
>claiming that they are wrong) that they think is wrong).

How about accepting as Jewish someone who has a Jewish mother
but was raised non-Jewish? R holds that s/he is not Jewish,
O holds that s/he is. 

-- 
               		Alan Lustiger
    |_ | |             	AT&T Bell Laboratories ERC, Princeton, NJ
     /   |( 		attmail!alustiger or att!pruxk!alu or lustiger@att.com
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: work != melacha (was Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...))
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:01:11 GMT
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous

In article <54926@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) writes:

>In article <1992Jul20.133117.19807@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>In article <FAIGIN.92Jul16074229@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org
>>(Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

>>>I have already shown you that Reform does not "blatently discard". As for what
>>>the precepts are; I'm sure you know them as well as me. Justice. Mercy.
>>>Ethics. Moral behavior. That's just a start.

>>Ritual? Practice? Sukkah? Shavuout? 39 Melachot? Birkat Kohanim?
>>Rosh Chodesh?

>Which aspects?  For the last three, I will agree.  In fact, I have so
>stated that I consider work to be far more basic than the 39 Melachot,
>and that this combination of tradition with the scientific ignorance
>of the time is something I could not accept.  I suspect that if a
>title for my view of Judaism is to be contrived, it would be scientific
>religious reconstructionist, which does not precisely fall into any of
>the present groups.

I find it intellectually dishonest, to the point of frustration (beyond
amusement) that Herman, after being corrected so many times, insists on
translating the word "melachah" as "work."  So that other readers should
not be confused, this is a poor translation.  It is not even borne out
by looking at the context of other uses of the word in the Bible.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<LERNER.92Jul16144011@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul16135135@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Jul20.211358.27459@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
	<FAIGIN.92Jul20150755@soldan.aero.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:50:42 GMT

   You suggested Reform DOES follow the Rambam, perhaps to ascribe
   legitimacy to you movement:
>> A fundamental of Judaism is something that *all* Jews agree on. I can only
>> think of one of these, and it is defined by "our G-d is one". Look at
>> the Maimodenes 13 principles. Where is keeping kosher there? 
   But you distance yourself from the Rambam's requirement that you
   accept the Torah, so as to remain Reform:
>> I don't believe I ever claimed that Reform believed in all of the 13
>> principles. I do believe that there is a core set of beliefs common to all
>> those who profess to practice Judaism.
   Which is it?  I'm not saying you HAVE to accept all the
   principles,  but which did you pick and choose?  
--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:41:15 +0000


> +From         : rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
> +Subject      : Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
> 
> They even give hechshers on bottled water, to my mind unbelievable.  

No doubt "passed" by the Rabbi giving the Hechsher! :-)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Phillips                Tel: 44-895-442141
Burch Phillips & Co.            Fax: 44-895-421231
63a Station Road
West Drayton
Middlesex
UB7 7LR
United Kingdom                  stephenp@compulink.co.uk