HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shelley@b30!b11.ingr.com (Shelley Read Heard)
Subject: Re: Tropical Storm Update?
Reply-To: shelley@heard.b30.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:13:10 GMT

Speaking of tropical storms ...

I have been looking at satilite photos of the Americas daily for a couple
of months and I've noticed LOTS of cyclone activity off the Northwest 
coast of South America.  At one time, in late June I think, there were 
3 at once - two with well formed eyes.  They all had pretty much the same
origin ( the Galapagos Is.) and bearing (northwest) and none made continental 
land fall.  Does this happen every year?  I'm guessing the hurricane
season in that part of the world is earlier than in the North Atlantic.
Has this been a typical storm season for the Northeastern Pacific?
It's great theater (at least from the vantage point of space).  I Don't think
I'll visit the Is. Revillagigedo area that time of year! 8-)

I'm new to this group also, so excuse me if this has been discussed before.

Thanks for any insights.

Shelley "don't know much about astro-physio-meteorology" Heard
-- 
   ~ ~    Shelley R. Heard (shelley@heard.b30.ingr.com)
 ( o o )  Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL
  ( ^ )   Disclaimer:  This is NOT my master's voice!
  / U \   Whoof!
From: hangfore@spf.trw.com (John Stevenson)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Re: Mission to Planet Earth
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:43:33 GMT
Reply-To: hangfore@spf.trw.com (John Stevenson)
Distribution: na
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA

In article <56844@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> gpetty@rain.atms.purdue.edu (Grant  
W. Petty) writes:
> In article <12AUG199217332967@ltp2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
> gumley@ltp2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Liam E. Gumley) writes:
> 
> (stuff deleted)
> 
> >That's why EOSDIS is expected
> >to be the largest civil computing contract in history, so I'm told.
> >In fact NASA just requested Hughes and TRW (the bidders) to submit new
> >cost estimates because the existing estimates were thought to be too  
low.
>                              
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> 
> This illustrates why government procurement has such a horrible
> reputation for wastefulness.  Why not just say to the lowest bidder,
> "OK, that's your estimate and you got our contract based on that
> estimate; now we (and the taxpayers) are going to hold you to it, come
> hell or high water, and make YOU eat any cost overruns!"
> 
> Jeez.
> 
> -- 
> Grant W. Petty                                 
gpetty@rain.atms.purdue.edu
> Assistant Prof. of Atmospheric Science        (317) 494-2544
> Dept. of Earth & Atmospheric Sciences     "All standard disclaimers  
apply"
> Purdue University, West Lafayette IN  47907-1397 

Grant -
The reason the contractors appear to be low-balling is because NASA  
requested a 'cost plus' contract. You appear to be refering to (or wishing  
for :-) a firm fixed price contract, and belive me, the cost estimates  
would be *much* different for that type of contract.

John Stevenson
hangfore@spf.trw.com
From: paul@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Trop. W. Pacific huge feature?
Date: 20 Aug 92 08:29:47 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

I'm wondering about the boundary that has been present for at least
the last two days extending from 37 N east of Japan to 10 S, south of
Sri Lanka. Convection in Borneo has tops blowing toward the WSW,
suggesting upper level winds from the ENE.

Is this a very long wave interacting with the ICTZ?

Thanks!
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: milton@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dave Milton)
Subject: Calculation of Windchill?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:48:04 GMT

I have temperature in degrees Celsius and wind speed in nautical
miles per hour. What is the formula I need to calculate wind
chill factor in watts per square metre?

Please respond by email since I do not get to read this group
very often.

Thank You.
-- 
David Milton, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada. (204)788-6346
Internet: milton@ccu.UManitoba.CA   Bitnet: milton@UOFMCC
From: stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Steve Jascourt)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Re: Green sky and T-storms
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:00:40 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

In article <Bt73JA.80A@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) kindly gives us a quick and dirty look at terminal velocities
>In article <1992Aug18.055305.21285@meteor.wisc.edu> stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Steve Jascourt) writes:
>>at SPS)? What is the terminal velocity of a six inch hailstone (assume it
>>is ellispoidal in shape)?  
>
>Moore and Pino,1990: An interactive method for estimating maximum hailstone 
>size fromforecast soundings.  _Weather and Forecasting_, 5, 508-525, we can 
>get the terminal velocity, Vt, as a function of hailstone diameter, d--
>  ...
>where d is in cm and Vt is in m/s.  For a 6 inch diamater hailstone, then,
>Vt ~ 38.7 m/s ~ 87 miles/hour, which is not all that huge.  

Which would correspond to a CAPE of only 1600 J/kg after using the rule of
thumb that you take half of the CAPE when predicting updraft velocities.
1600 J/kg is not all that unusual even after accounting for water-loading in 
computing the CAPE, plus, storms with the strong long-lived updrafts tend to 
be supercells whose dynamic pressure perturbations will add more vertical 
velocity than the same amount of buoyancy would otherwise generate. 

>I make no claims to the validity of the assumptions of Pino and Moore (and
>the references therein) or the relevance of the terminal velocity of a 
>hailstone to its size.

I'll have to check the article before I can comment on their assumptions. As
for the relevance, in a simplistic sense, *assuming* terminal velocity is
reached quickly, the updraft would have to be at least this large to sustain
such a large hailstone. Of course, we also really need to consider how much
additional growth by riming or reduction by melting the hailstone undergoes as
it falls through a weaker updraft (or even gets caught in the downdraft; both
may happen at different heights if the updraft is tilted). You guys at 
Oklahoma could ask Jerry Straka about how much extra growth or melting loss
might be expected (of course, it depends on storm structure and the relative
humidity experienced on the hailstones trip down), but he would know for large
hailstones how much of a factor this is.

>Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu

Stephen Jascourt   stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu
From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Rainclouds
Date: 12 Aug 1992 11:08:33 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

Hi, I have a couple of questions about rainclouds which I hope someone
can answer for me.  A week ago I knew nothing about 'em, except that I
knew I really liked it when it rained, but then thru a complicated 
set of circumstances I checked out three books on meteorology that I
found very fascinating...  Here are my questions:

(I know they're a lot, but they should be easy for the experts...)

1.  Is it correct to say that rain is predominately caused by cumulus,
cumulonimbus, stratus, nimbostratus, and stratocumulus clouds?

2.  Cumulus and cumulonimbus clouds are "heap" type, right?

3.  Stratus and nimbostratus are "layer" type, right?

4.  Stratocumulus is really a cumulus type that got spread out?

5.  Regarding the 3 stratus types, the ones that actually yield rain must
necessarily become grayish or darkish before raining?  I.e. is a symptom
of a rain-stratus cloud its dark color (a white one won't give rain)?  I
understand this to mean that the water vapor as it condenses into rain
droplets is a stronger barrier to sunlight than regular, small cloud droplets.
Is this more or less correct?  Oh, and does the cloud lighten up in color
after it has expended most of its rain?

6. Again regarding the 3 stratus types, when they finally DO rain, is the
rain directly preceded by the cloud layer breaking up?  I think I may be 
completely off on this one.  What I'm asking is do the 3 stratus types first
start fragmenting, and then it starts to rain?  Or does the rain just 
come without any cloud breakup?  

7. Finally (whew!), regarding the 2 cumulus raincloud types, I read that
if the cumulonimbus cloud gets enough vertical development, the rain droplets
in the upper half can freeze, yielding hail, snow, etc.  Does this mean only
these type of clouds give this type of frozen precipitation (because the
other types of rainclouds are all at low elevation)?  Also, is the cumulonimbus
the only one that can give lighting and thunder?

*************

Ok, so my couple of questions became several (many?) but I can't help it if
I find your subject fascinating.  Perhaps it is not too late to switch 
careers :-) ...

I thank you for your help.
Ahmed.
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: hardie@herald.usask.ca (Peter Hardie)
Subject: Windchill formula
Originator: hardie@herald.usask.ca
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:11:10 GMT

I obtained the following windchill formula from the local weather office.
Note that for windspeeds below a few km/hr the formula tends to give unrealistic
values (e.g. for 0km/hr at -40C the chill is only 884 W/m^2). This is because
the formula is based (so I'm told) on the assumption that the heat loss is
entirely convective. With low wind speeds radiative losses and other factors
take over. So you can't use this formula to find equivalent windchills in
degrees.

WC = (6.114*sqrt(u) + 12.12 - 0.3222u)*(33-T)

Where WC is in W/m^2
       u is windspeed in km/hr
       T is air temperature in degrees C.

Pete hardie@herald.usask.ca
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: Gavin Adams <gavin.adams@lso.mts.dec.com>
Subject: REQUEST: Data Acquisition
X-Xxdate: Mon, 17 Aug 92 08:24:25 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:33:25 GMT

Hi,

I'm looking for references on data acquisition techniques being used for
the Sequoia 2000 project.  The national laboratory I'm working at (Los
Alamos) has a DA system that we're trying to refine for general use. 
It's currently being used for radiological measurements, but we would
like to expand the functionality to encompass weather, biological, and
other remote monitoring interests.

Thanks in advance for any pointers, and if I receive any responses (:)
I'll summarize here.

--- Gavin
Visualize Whirled Peas!
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Rainclouds
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:34:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.023259.1722@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, kbarr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith Barr) writes:
 
> Here at the National Center for Atmospheric Research it is generally
> believed that a storm won't electrify unless it penetrates the freezing level.
> In fact we have a fair amount of proof that if there is no graupel, snow, or
> hail, it is impossible for a cloud to electrify, and therefore this is no
> chance for lightning and thunder.

This is the accepted theory.  When I was in grad school I heard a talk
by Bernard Vonnegut on this subject (he's done a lot of pioneering research
into cloud electrification, and incidentally suggested the concept of
ice-9 to his brother Kurt, and if you've read the book you know what I'm
talking about :-) who spent a lot of time explaining the difficulties of
obtaining measurements that would prove these things.  I'd be interested
in hearing about the experiments that provided this "fair amount of
proof."  (I'm not skeptical, just interested and curious.)

To clarify a little, for the original questioner:  yes, the stuff up
in the thunderstorming cloud is frozen.  You don't necessarily get
hail on the ground, though, because the hydrometeors (love that word --
I mean the hail, or graupel, or whatever) may melt before hitting the
ground.

Interestingly, there are different mechanisms for producing rain in
freezing and nonfreezing clouds.  These mechanisms (accretion vs 
coalescence) result in different drop size distributions.  So you don't
need a freezing cloud to create rain, just for electrification.
 
(Reference:  A Short Course in Cloud Physics, R. R. Rogers)

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.
From: aesr137@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (Karl Stapelfeldt)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Seeking description of Hurricane tracking models currently in use
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:07:00 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

This afternoon's discussion of Atlantic Tropical Storm "Andrew" from the
National Hurricane Center begs for some acronym explanation.  To wit :

TROPICAL STORM ANDREW DISCUSSION NUMBER  16
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
5 PM EDT THU AUG 20 1992

THE TRACK FORECAST MODELS THIS AFTERNOON SHOW INTERESTING TRENDS.
QLM TAKES THE CENTER TO JUST OFF THE COAST OF CUBA IN 72 HOURS...THE
BAM RUNS TOWARD THE MIDDLE BAHAMAS...NHC AS EARLIER STRAIGHT
NORTHWEST...AND VICBAR ON OUR TRACK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently, there are at least 4 different models to project the storm's
course and today they aren't agreeing very well.  I can guess that the
NHC model is National Hurricane Center ... what are the QLM, BAM, and VICBAR
models ?  Can anyone describe how these models differ in approach and detail,
or suggest where this information can be found ?  Thanks in advance for any
information.

                                    Karl Stapelfeldt
                                    UMass Astronomy Postdoc
                                    aesr137@phobos.ucc.umass.edu
From: edgarm@rs6203.ecs.rpi.edu (Marc Edgar)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Psychometric Charts - Computer Generated
Keywords: psychometric, chart, water vapor, air
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:31:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi.ykhywl+
Reply-To: edgarm@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.


Greetings,

I hope I am not taking up too much bandwidth to ask this . . . 

I am trying to locate a computer program that will do
calculations of the thermodynamic properties of air and
water vapor mixtures.

I need to calculate enthalpy, entropy and maximum vapor
fraction at various temperatures AND pressures.  I am a 
mechanical engineer so I would say that what I need is 
a set of steam tables for moist air at various temperatures,
pressures and vapor factions.  Meteorologists must have
a fancy name for what I am talking about but I don't know it.

There are several articles in the literature that have
the formulas, (Wylan and Wexler . . .) so I could type them 
in if I had to, but I thought I would see if there is anyone 
out there that has already done the programming. 

If you have such a program I would like to talk to you,
please drop me a note.

Thanks in advance,


(insert signature here) 

Marc EdgaGreetings,

I hope I am not taking up too much bandwidth to ask this . . . 

I am trying to locate a computer program that will do
calculations of the thermodynamic properties of air and
water vapor mixtures.

I need to calculate enthalpy, entropy and maximum vapor
fraction at various temperatures AND pressures.  I am a 
mechanical engineer so I would say that what I need is 
a set of steam tables for moist air at various temperatures,
pressures and vapor factions.  Meteorologists must have
a fancy name for what I am talking about but I don't know it.

There are several articles in the literature that have
the formulas, (Wylan and Wexler . . .) so I could type them 
in if I had to, but I thought I would see if there is anyone 
out there that has already done the programming. 

If you have such a program I would like to talk to you,
please drop me a note.

Thanks in advance,


(insert signature here) 

Marc Edgar
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: userDHAL@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA (David Halliwell)
Subject: Re: Rainclouds
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 18:48:09 GMT

sherwood@fenris.space.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford) writes:

>Keith Barr writes
>> Interesting side note:
>> 
>> Here at the National Center for Atmospheric Research it is generally
>> believed that a storm won't electrify unless it penetrates the freezing  
>level.
>> In fact we have a fair amount of proof that if there is no graupel, snow, or
>> hail, it is impossible for a cloud to electrify, and therefore this is no
>> chance for lightning and thunder.
>> 

>Hmm.  The climate warms up, the freezing level rises.  Less lighting.  Less  
>forest fires, more carbon fixed, climate cools.

   Hmmm. Climate warms up, there is more evaporation, leading to more
frequent occurences of conditional instability, leading to more
frequent vertical cloud development, leading to higher clouds, leading
to more/less (pick one) freezing clouds and more/less lightning....

    Ain't clouds a bugger in this climate change problem???

>Wonder if  this is a significant part of the feedback loop

    Clouds are indeed a significant *potential* feedback in a wide
variety of ways. Problem is there is too much unknown, and they are
so d*mn hard to include in a rigorous way in global climate models.
I haven't seen many single clouds (especially the convective type) that
cover more than one 5 degree by 5 degree grid square :-)


Dave Halliwell
Department of Geography
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
From: jurandir@cpa.unicamp.br (Jurandir Zullo Jr.)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Subject: Weather
Date: 20 Aug 1992 14:43:01 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Dear friends,

I am looking for International Weather Forecast (including South America) in Internet Sites.

If you have any leads on where could I obtain this information, please email me at:
jurandir@cpa.unicamp.br.

Regards and Thanks.

Jurandir
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Green sky and T-storms
Organization: NSSL
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:59:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.055305.21285@meteor.wisc.edu> stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Steve Jascourt) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.024007.4275@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mfoster@alliant.backbone.uoknor.edu (Marc Foster) writes:
>>like on April 28 of this year, when a good part of the Fort Worth/Dallas
>>Metroplex got hammered with stones ranging from 2 to 6 inches ( 2 1/2
>                                                     ?????????
>6 INCHES?????????????????????????????????????
>
>Was there a local storm report with this figure? When was the last time a
>six inch hailstone fell? How much CAPE was there that evening (00Z sounding
>at SPS)? What is the terminal velocity of a six inch hailstone (assume it
>is ellispoidal in shape)?  

Let's be a little easier and assume it's spherical.  From Moore and Pino, 
1990:  An interactive method for estimating maximum hailstone size from
forecast soundings.  _Weather and Forecasting_, 5, 508-525, we can 
get the terminal velocity, Vt, as a function of hailstone diameter, d--

Vt = sqrt [(2*rhoh*g*d)/(3*rhoa*Cd)]

rhoh is the density of the hailstone, rhoa density of air, g acceleration
due to gravity, and Cd a drag coefficient.  Pino and Moore suggest 
rhoh ~ 0.9 g/cm**3 and Cd (for rough spheres) ~ 0.6.  Plugging those values 
in, we get (with rhoa = 0.0001 g/cm**3) 

Vt ~ sqrt [(1000*g*d)]

   ~ 10*sqrt(d)

where d is in cm and Vt is in m/s.  For a 6 inch diamater hailstone, then,
Vt ~ 38.7 m/s ~ 87 miles/hour, which is not all that huge.  

I make no claims to the validity of the assumptions of Pino and Moore (and
the references therein) or the relevance of the terminal velocity of a 
hailstone to its size.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory/CIMMS (Norman, OK)
Andres Galarraga (Through 16 August)  .229 BA  .356 SLG  .271 OBA
28 H away from .300  8 HBP  8 BB    680+ PA w/o a sacrifice
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
From: sherwood@fenris.space.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford)
Subject: Re: Rainclouds
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:49:25 GMT

Keith Barr writes
> Interesting side note:
> 
> Here at the National Center for Atmospheric Research it is generally
> believed that a storm won't electrify unless it penetrates the freezing  
level.
> In fact we have a fair amount of proof that if there is no graupel, snow, or
> hail, it is impossible for a cloud to electrify, and therefore this is no
> chance for lightning and thunder.
> 

Hmm.  The climate warms up, the freezing level rises.  Less lighting.  Less  
forest fires, more carbon fixed, climate cools.

Wonder if  this is a significant part of the feedback loop
From: Mark Goodman <mwgoodman@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology
Date: 14 Aug 92 07:37 PDT
Subject: Re: Mission to Planet Earth
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1466900271:cdp:1466900272:000:2470
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!mwgoodman    Aug 14 07:37:00 1992


To:    sci.geo.meteorology
From:  Mark Goodman (mwgoodman@igc.org)
Re:    EOS
Date:  14 Aug 1992
 
Mark Goodman writes:
 
>> + >3) How are we going to use all that data?  Does NASA have a
 
Liam Gumley replies:
 
>There will in fact be many archive centers across the country.  But we
>are talking about some rather large data volumes.  For example, the data rate
>from MODIS alone will be around 70 gigabytes per day (at Level-0).
>The volume will not be as large at the lower product levels (2 and on)
>but there's still a lot of data to deal with.  That's why EOSDIS is expected
>to be the largest civil computing contract in history, so I'm told.
>In fact NASA just requested Hughes and TRW (the bidders) to submit new
>cost estimates because the existing estimates were thought to be too low.
 
>EOS should go a long way in addressing the needs of climate change detection
>from a remote sensing standpoint.  It will certainly provide new types of
>datasets that have never before been studied.  We certainly look forward
>to the launch of EOS-AM in 1998.
 
I know about the NASA data centers.  The question is not where the data will
be stored but how it will be made useful.  This involves a chain of
communication that begins with EOS sensors, goes through data centers to
research scientists, and then to policy analysts and the government.
 
The scientists are not the endpoint.  The goal of EOS is to improve our
ability to respond to potential climate changes.  The problem is how to get
useful information to policy makers in a timely fashion.  If all the data
goes into a vast archive for later analysis, we might as well store random
bits.
 
Has anyone thought of trying to develop software "triggers" to filter the
raw data and flag any that seem interesting or unusual?  It seems that this
would be extremely difficult, but also potentially extremely valuable.
 
How are priorities determined for which data analyses to perform first?  Is
there any formal procedure, or is it just done on the basis of individual
scientists' interests?  If there is a formal procedure, does it contain
any guidance about the most important policy questions?
 
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------+
|       Mark W. Goodman       | What a terrible thing it is |
| mwgoodman@igc.org -- econet | to lose your mind.          |
| goodman@ksgbbs.harvard.edu  |                             |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------+

Newsgroups: sci.geo.meteorology