HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty
Distribution: world
From: hyerstay@adrenaline.uucp (Jason Hyerstay)
Organization: Adrenaline Online, (802) 425-2332, a FirstClass BBS
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:02:20 EST
Subject: Re: The thread about female circum cicumcision

> Remember the purpose of the services set up by the government: they are there
> to protect the innocent child from "abusive" parents.  Does anyone think
that
> this goal is not laudable?  No.  But look at the practical effect of such an
> agency.  Here we have a systemic institutionalization of bureaucratic 
> terrorism.  Is the cure worse than the disease?

> This is why I believe that female circumcision should not be banned by the
> government.  Governments can not be trusted with power over its people.

If that is your argument, than why did you even bring up female circumcision as a specific? It seems as though
it might be better to simply argue your overwhelming point and only use
circumcision and child abuse cases as examples.

Personally, I would argue for children to be granted (officially) all of the
rights that adults now enjoy (except for very unusual cases) so that the child
could not have his body physically violated by anyone without his permission.
You seem to say that the government must not interfere beccause the parents
know best; I say each person knows best what to do for him or herself and has
the right to be wrong. To say that we would be violating parents soveriegnty
by stopping them from injuring their children is much worse than letting the
child decide. I would not outlaw female circumcision, but our court system
should allow those injured people to sue their parents if they so desire.
- jason

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From: jkreznar@ininx.UUCP (John E. Kreznar)
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty,talk.abortion
Subject: Pro-choice loses another round.
Keywords: pro-choice
Date: 23 Jan 93 07:41:05 GMT
Followup-To: alt.society.civil-liberty
Organization: Independence Industries, Los Angeles


Because it presumes to compel membership, government is a way of
supplanting the personal choices of anyone subject to its rule with
the choices of someone else.  To the extent that the government is a
democratic one, personal choice is supplanted with collective choice.

In most departments of government activity, one assumes that advocates
of that activity _intend_ for subjects of the government to be
deprived of their personal choice.

But this cannot apply to advocates of tax-funded abortion counseling,
because they do so _in the name_ of pro-choice.

Nor can it apply to advocates of tax funding for abortion, for the
same reason.

How do these advocates rationalize this contradiction?

On this day, United States President Bill Clinker has terminated the
so-called ``gag rule'', asserting that this was to increase personal
freedom.

It used to be that you had a choice on whether to support abortion
counseling.  Now, unless you have managed to remain free of the
clutches of the United States Government, you no longer have that
choice.  This means that part of your toil is applied, by way of
taxation, in support of abortion counseling, whether or not you would
so choose on your own.

What could Clinker have meant by ``personal freedom'', in view of
the foregoing?

Notice that the perspective from which these questions are asked is
profoundly pro-choice.  Please do not respond if you do not understand
this.

-- 
        Relations among people to be by mutual consent, or not at all.
         ---John E. Kreznar, jkreznar@ininx.com, uunet!ininx!jkreznar
Xref: sparky alt.society.civil-liberty:7514 talk.abortion:57802
From: jkreznar@ininx.UUCP (John E. Kreznar)
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Pro-choice loses a round.
Date: 25 Jan 93 06:41:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.society.civil-liberty
Organization: Independence Industries, Los Angeles

In article <1993Jan23.094931.14067@watson.ibm.com>, margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:
> In <329@ininx.UUCP> jkreznar@ininx.UUCP (John E. Kreznar) writes:

> >It used to be that you had a choice on whether to support abortion
> >counseling.  Now, unless you have managed to remain free of the
> >clutches of the United States Government, you no longer have that
> >choice.  This means that part of your toil is applied, by way of
> >taxation, in support of abortion counseling, whether or not you would
> >so choose on your own.

> Seems like you're confusing "pro-choice" (which refers to in favor of keeping
> the availability of abortion as a legal choice) with "libertarian".

I suspect that many who use the phrase ``pro-choice'' are deliberately
attempting to appeal to popular acceptance of peaceful freedom of
choice in all personal matters, not just abortion.  I find this quite
acceptable because I would, come to think of it, largely identify
``pro-choice'' with ``libertarian'', though I acknowledge that both
terms get stretched this way and that by people who use semantics as a
weapon.

I am merely observing that the disposition of one's toil is certainly
a personal matter, and asking how some people justify to themselves
obtaining one person's choice at the expense of another's, especially
when the peaceful option of _both_ having their choice is so
available.

-- 
        Relations among people to be by mutual consent, or not at all.
         ---John E. Kreznar, jkreznar@ininx.com, uunet!ininx!jkreznar
Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberty
From: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Subject: SUBJECTS NEEDED FOR PSYCH. STUDY
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:02:46 GMT

I am posting the following announcement for my sister.  She is looking  
for subjects, primarily in the New York City area (the closer to  
Manhattan, the better) to participate as subjects in a study on the  
psyhcology of the postpartum period.

At this point, my sister is in greatest need of subjects for the  
control group --females between 18 to 40 years of age, with no  
children, who are not presently pregnant.  If you can participate or  
if you know people who can participate, please read on.  The telephone  
nunber to call is listed below.

Thanks,
Phil Menos

--------------------------------------------------------------
                      SUBJECTS NEEDED

I AM A Ph.D. CANDIDATE IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, CONDUCTING A
STUDY OF THE POSTPARTUM PERIOD, A LONG NEGLECTED AREA OF
RESEARCH.

                IF YOU ARE 18-40, FEMALE AND

O    EITHER RECENTLY GAVE BIRTH TO A CHILD (WITHIN THE LAST
     NINE MONTHS)

O    OR DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN AND ARE NOT CURRENTLY PREGNANT,

YOU ARE ELIGIBLE TO PARTICIPATE IN A STUDY THAT WILL TAKE 15
MINUTES OF YOUR TlME WITH ME.  AFTER THIS BRIEF MEETING, YOU
WILL BE GIVEN A PACKET OF PSYCHOLOGICAL INVENTORIES THAT WILL
TAKE 40 MINUTES TO 1 1/2 HOURS TO COMPLETE (DEPENDING ON
WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE ABBREVIATED VERSION OR NOT), AT
YOUR LEISURE.  THE PACKET WILL BE SELF-ADDRESSED AND STAMPED.
WHEN YOU ARE DONE, JUST PUT IT INTO THE MAILBOX.

AFTER THE REBULTS HAVE BEEN ANALYZED, IF YOU WISH, I WILL
CALL YOU TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE ABOUT
THE 5TUDY AND TO GIVE YOU FEEDBACK REGARDING YDUR TYPICAL
MODES OF FUNCTIONING ALONG VARIOUS DIMENSIONS OF PERSONALITY,
YOUR TYPICAL SHIFTS IN PERSONALITY ORGANIZATION UNDER STRESS,
YOUR PERSONAL STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND OTHER PATTERNS OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONING SUGGESTED BY YOUR RESPONSES.

THE STUDY IS BEING CONDUCTED ALONG AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL
ASSOCIATION RESEARCH GUIDELINES.  ALL DATA IS STRICTLY
CONFIDENTIAL.  YOU WILL BE IDENTIFIED WITH A CODE NUMBER.
INFORMATION LINKING YOU WITH THIS CODE NUMBER WILL BE
DESTROYED ONCE WE HAVE HAD OUR TELEPHONE FEEDBACK SESSION.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING OR GETTING MORE
INFORMATION, PLEASE CALL:

                           Micka
                        (212) 666-2174.

              PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO A FRIEND.

                        THANK YOU.

--------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
G. Philippe Menos [gpmenos@firestone.princeton.edu]
Systems Administrator,   Princeton University Libraries
voice:  609-258-5183     fax:  609-258-5571
From: joachim@kih.no (joachim lous)
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: H.R Giger's Necronomicon
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:23:39 GMT
Organization: Kongsberg Ingeniorhogskole
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

I've been trying to get my hands on H.R Giger's Necronomicon for a
while now, but it's hard to find. Until I DO find it, there's a
couple of things I'd like to know:

How much (if anything) does it have to do with Cthulhu mythos
and the fictional original?

Is it any good? (I guess the pictures are bound to be, but the
rest of it, if there is any)

I can hardly think of anyone more perfectly suited to illustrate
Lovecraft's creations than Giger, but then again, I wouldn't put
it past him just to use the name for any old book just because
he thought it was cool.

Email me or post it if your answer has general interest.
Thanx.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joachim Lous  Joachim@samson.kih.no      -Just say NO to sigs.
From: f1toyl@uta.fi (Topi Ylinen)
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Flame on! (Re: Where to use the Necronomicon)
Date: 28 Jan 93 10:16:43 GMT
Organization: University of Tampere, Finland

Organization: University of Tampere, Finland

In article <1993Jan26.162532.1857@nmsu.edu> jgoodric@dante.nmsu.edu (GOODRICH)
 writes:
>
>	YOU BLOODY IMBECILES ARE MIXING YOUR REALITIES AGAIN!
>DRAGONWORLD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TOLKIEN!
>
>"AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!"
>                                -MacBeth

WELL FUCK YOU TOO
YOU BLOODY IMBECILE ARE MIXING REALITIES AGAIN!
SHAKESPEARE NEVER WROTE THAT LINE!
(AND I HONESTLY DOUBT THE "HISTORICAL" MB SAID IT EITHER)
AND WHY ARE WE SHOUTING TODAY????

#############################################################################
#################Topi#Ylinen#(f1toyl@kielo.uta.fi)###########################
#############################################################################
	"A great while ago the world begun,		
	   With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
	 But that's all one, our play is done,		  (W. Shakespeare:
	   And we'll strive to please you every day."	   Twelfth Night)
#############################################################################
        NOTE: If you reply to this, please do not copy the whole
                text body. Thank you.
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 27 Jan 1993 15:48:41 EST
From: Joshua Kronengold <H04HC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Re: HUH?!?!


In article <cesnyd01.728143686@starbase.spd.louisville.edu>,
cesnyd01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Cris Snyder) says:
>
>I just notice this - why is this group 'NECROMICON' and not spelled
>'NECRONOMICON'?
>

Because this group is devoted to spoofs of Lovecraftian material,
rather than the horrors themselves.
-------
| Joshua Kronengold <jokhc@cunyvm.cuny.edu>                           |
| My Pleasure is my power to please my Mistress:                      |
| My Power is my pleasure in that power.-Lessingham                   |
From: lizi@soda.berkeley.edu (Cosma Shalizi)
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Re: Where to use the Necronomicon
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:08:02 GMT
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu (Berkeley Tentacle)
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <MAGI.93Jan25110605@polaris.utu.fi> magi@polaris.utu.fi (Marko Gr|nroos) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.090818.12194@ulrik.uio.no> joachim@kih.no (joachim lous) writes:
>> > I didn't know dragons have any names at all. People may need names,
>> > dragons don't.
>> Ever heard of Smaug?  (or Puff, the magic one)
>Yeah, but those are names given to them by people.
	You obviously haven't read _A Wizard of Earthsea_ recently, have you?
EVERYTHING has a true name, especially dragons.
	Cosma Rohilla Shalizi
	In Real Life: lizi@soda.berkeley.edu
-- 
"I'd love to hold you/ I'd love to kiss you/ I ain't got time for that now."
-Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
"Death needs Time for what it kills to grow in."
-William S. Burroughs, "Ah Pook is Here"
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
From: jgoodric@dante.nmsu.edu (GOODRICH)
Subject: Re: Where to use the Necronomicon
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:25:32 GMT


	YOU BLOODY IMBECILES ARE MIXING YOUR REALITIES AGAIN!
DRAGONWORLD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TOLKIEN!

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!"
                                -MacBeth

Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
From: cesnyd01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Cris Snyder)
Subject: HUH?!?!
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:08:06 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

I just notice this - why is this group 'NECROMICON' and not spelled
'NECRONOMICON'?


				AlberCrombie. 
-- 
--==-=-=-=-=-====-==-----===-=-====-----=-==-=-=-=-=-===-=-====-=----===-===---=
			cesnyd01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu		

		AlberCrombie ---- The One And Only Space Gopher

				.sig?  what .sig?
-===--=--==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==---===-=--===-==-==-=---===----=-=-=-=---=-=-=-=-=--
From: eee90041@uk.ac.bham.ibm3090 (Jon Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: (None set)
Date: 26 Jan 93 10:48:26 GMT
Organization: The University of Birmingham, United Kingdom
NNTP-Posting-Host: ibm3090.bham.ac.uk

==============================================================================
Greetings from the crawling chaos Nyarlothotep himself.......
I don't know if anyone agrees with me but I think that August Derleth's works
detract from the Mythos, not add to it. However I do admire the contributions
from Bloch, Campbell and Lumley.
P.S. Anyone know where I can find the short story "The Mound" by HPL and Zealia
Bishop?

Up the Necronomicon and freedom the Old Ones!
From: nhardy@arkham.demon.co.uk (Nigel Hardy)
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Re: (None set)
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:07:03 GMT
Reply-To: nhardy@arkham.demon.co.uk
Organization: Arkham BBS
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.30 $

In article <934826104826@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk> eee90041@uk.ac.bham.ibm3090 (Jon Ward) writes:
>==============================================================================
>Greetings from the crawling chaos Nyarlothotep himself.......
>P.S. Anyone know where I can find the short story "The Mound" by HPL and Zealia
>Bishop?

It is in "The Horror in the Museum and other Revisions" published by
Arkham House. Got my hardback copy from Forbidden Planet in London.

        Nigs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 nhardy@arkham.demon.co.uk        | nigel.hardy@f151.n252.z2.fidonet.org
 CIS: 100015,1252                 | BT Mailbox: 10080:BTG096
 Arkham BBS +44-71-738-5596/5557  | "No thanks, I'd rather eat my own leg"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:23:41 EST
From: <DCC117@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Re: HUH?!?!
 <93027.154841H04HC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

>>I just notice this - why is this group 'NECROMICON' and not spelled
>>'NECRONOMICON'?

    Because someone is an idiot.

Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
From: magi@polaris.utu.fi (Marko Gr|nroos)
Subject: Re: Where to use the Necronomicon
Organization: University of Turku, Computer Science
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:06:05

In article <1993Jan20.090818.12194@ulrik.uio.no> joachim@kih.no (joachim lous) writes:
> > I didn't know dragons have any names at all. People may need names,
> > dragons don't.
> Ever heard of Smaug?  (or Puff, the magic one)

Yeah, but those are names given to them by people.

> Joachim Lous                                         joachim@samson.kih.no

-- Marko Gronroos, Karvataskunkatu 10 H, 20610 Tku, Finland, tel#+358-21-445613
Newsgroups: alt.necromicon
Subject: Re: Where to use the Necronomicon
From: Hector Salgado-Galicia <hs1c+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:48:08 -0500 
Organization: Doctoral student, Engineering and Public Policy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Is anyone here going to talk about H. P. Lovecraft?


H. Salgado
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
From: alekz@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu (Alekz Vermont)
Subject: Re: Beat 'EM Back...
Organization: Johns Hopkins Univ. Welch Medical Library
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:38:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.191238.3515@athena.mit.edu> tcarlin@athena.mit.edu (Thomas B Carlin) writes:
>	Would anyone out there be so kind as to tell me where "muskingum"
>college (university?) is, so that I may alert the appropriate Dean (in the
>capacity as an administrator at MIT) about this hate mail?  I am
>reasonably comfortable that they would not be happy that their vax system
>was used for this, and more than willing to do something to see to it that
>his (and, yes, I assume) "little wings" are clipped.

>Thomas B. Carlin

i am following up instead of replying, because i thought a few people may
be interested in writing similar letters.  i know net administrative
action has been taken, but perhaps it can be taken further.  i looked up
the facility in question, and got the following information:

Muskingum College
Main Street
New Concord, OH  43762-1199

tel: 614-826-8211

the president's name is:  Samuel W. Speck
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
From: erics@sco.COM (eric smith)
Subject: Re: Homosexual Nazis?
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:15:43 GMT


larry@bradley.bradley.edu (L. D. Stratton) writes:

>   A far as the Reich is concerned, in its beginnings the Brown Shirts,
>   forerunners of the SS, was headed by a fellow whose name escapes me
>   but who was homosexual.

Ernst Roehm.

>   In 1936 (?) there was a move to consolidate
>   power by Himmler, Goebbles, etc. and "The Night of the Long Knives"
>   involved a massive purge of many Nazi leaders at the time.  One of
>   these was the head of the Brown Shirts, a homosexual, and several
>   other prominent homosexuals in the Nazi organization and government.
>   That is when things turned nasty for gays in Germany.

>   Hitler himself has never been considered to be gay or even gay-sympathetic.
>   When you read the passages in "Mein Kampf" (try to read the German 
>   original, BTW), there is more humor and sarcasm --- which later turned
>   into hatred.  Gays in the Third Reich were thought incapable of producing
>   any Kinder and the trait nonproductive for the proliferation of the
>   'super-race'.  

The fact that Roehm and many of his followers were homosexuals was
always secondary, in Hitler's view, to political aims. Hitler was
quite aware, during the rise of the Nazi Party, that there were
many gays in the S.A. (Brown Shirts) and its leadership. He had
no qualms about using their support to further his political ends,
and no qualms about destroying them when their presence was no
longer in accord with those ends. When he began to acquire a more
mainstream following the S.A. became an embarassment to him, and
he decided to purge Roehm and his followers. He knew that in order
to attract the support of the traditional military establishment
he had to reign in his half-organized, paramilitary rabble rousers.
He also knew that Roehm would not willingly give up his powerful
position, so the purge would have to be quick and bloody. It was a
clear indication of Hitler's methods, the work of a ruthless power
seeker.

-----
Eric Smith
erics@sco.com
erics@infoserv.com
CI$: 70262,3610
From: aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel)
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
Subject: Re: Fanzines
Date: 28 Jan 1993 04:38:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa704@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jennifer Engel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


the arguments abound. fanszines have been descrbied as:
amatrue magazines, undergrowund press, alternative publications, etc.

they're just basically little publication put out by anyone who wants to do
wone
Factsheet 5 covered a lot of gay fanzines, hence the posting here. 

the thread is just because people don't edit their newsgroup line with
responding. 

-- 
Claude Debussy:
"Music is the space between the notes."
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
Subject: Re: Security Clearances for Civillians
From: sbrack@jupiter (Steve Brack)
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:00:25 EST
Reply-To: sbrack@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

cgoldman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Charles Goldman) writes:
: The recent post on Clinton's promise about opening the military led me
: to think that I haven't heard any recent talk about gay civillians 
: getting security clearances.  Does anyone have any recent information?
: 
: Charles

	Well, Clinton has talked about adding sexual orientation to the
	list of protected classes in the federal Civil Rights Act.

	That would cover every aspect, including civilian security 
	clearances, as far as I know.  It would not, however, be binding
	on the military, or on congress itself.  Congress exempts itself 
	from most of its own laws. 


--
Steven S. Brack         | "Love one another." |  sbrack@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu
Toledo, OH  43613-1605  |        - A tolerant |  STU0061@UOFT01.BITNET          
MY OWN OPINIONS         |          Christian  |  sbrack@nyx.cs.du.edu          
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
From: taurus@agora.rain.com (Scott Burch)
Subject: Re: Beat 'EM Back...
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:12:10 GMT

>i am following up instead of replying, because i thought a few people may
>be interested in writing similar letters.  i know net administrative
>action has been taken, but perhaps it can be taken further.  i looked up
>the facility in question, and got the following information:

>Muskingum College
>Main Street
>New Concord, OH  43762-1199

>tel: 614-826-8211

>the president's name is:  Samuel W. Speck

   Thanks for the information.  I also sent e-mail to the postmaster
   of that system, and he told me it was being taken care of, but
   I am not sure what that means.  I think the dean should also know.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Burch                            "Homophobia is a sickness"
taurus@agora.rain.com
Portland, OR
From: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Newsgroups: alt.homosexual
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:46:58 GMT
Reply-To: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: era@teal.csn.org

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms,
in the face of growing political and religious intolerance in Colorado.
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario