HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:23:55 GMT

randyb@calera.com  writes:
>>>So what exactly do you mean by progressive metal?
>I second this.  What is "progressive metal"?  Alternative-ish?
> 
>>Some progressive metal bands:
>>Fates Warning
>>Dream Theater
>>Queensryche
>>Watchtower
>>Toxik
>>King Diamond
>>King's X
>>Athiest
> 
> These are all normal thrash or metal bands.  Nothing really different about
> most of them IMHO.  Does progressive just mean that they have special lyrics
> or something?

Actually, I don't think any of them are normal thrash/metal bands.

Scott's definition of progressive metal:  
Music with some roots in metal, some in progressive rock, some
elsewhere, that take metal somewhere else.  Usually involves
some _serious_ musicianship--a lot of odd times and meters, time
changes, dynamic changes.  In a lot of ways, it's like a metal
descendant of 70s progressive rock...Adventurous, challenging
to listen to and to play, and usually not very mainstream
(okay, Queensryche's _Empire_ was pretty popular, but I'd say
it's not nearly the most progressive thing they've done).
I don't know why, but progressive metal usually seems to have
the most appeal to musicians.  Hmmmm.  Maybe a lot of the
subtleties fly past people that aren't listening for that
kind of thing.  Try tapping your foor, or air-drumming, to
"Ytse Jam" by Dream Theater.  Oof.
 
I think if you sit down and listen to _Perfect Symmetry_ by Fates Warning,
or _Images and Words_ by Dream Theater, or _Rage for Order_ by Queesryche,
and I mean listen _carefully_, you'll see that it's not just thrash.
IMHO, _Perfect Symmetry_ is a work of art.  The songs are incredible,
and the playing blows my mind.  To say there's nothing different about
King's X or Watchtower...well, I just can't agree.

> Some bands that I think are less mainstream and have taken metal to a new
> form:
> 
> Godflesh
> Neurosis	(Arguably they are alternative-grungish, but . . .)

Godflesh has absolutely done something different.  I, personally,
think they've taken industrial to a new form, but that's kind of
nitpicking.  I wouldn't group them as progressive metal, but hey,
that's me.

I don't want to flame anyone at all, but Randy, I'm wondering if 
you've listened to much of the stuff by the above bands.  If not,
give them a shot and tell me what you think then.

I can see how the term "progressive metal" might be misleading,
since for a long time, progressive=alternative.  A lot of people
call it "cerebral metal", but that might just be where you're from.

And anyone else, if you know of some progressive metal stuff
that's not on the list, PLEASE add to the list...there's not
much out there, and people like me are *dying* to hear more.


scott
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: martino@encore.WPI.EDU (Robert Paul Martino Jr)
Subject: Iron Maiden?
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 04:03:38 GMT

One of the bands that got me from mainstream to progressive music was Iron 
Maiden a few years ago.  I always thought they were different, a lot of
meter changes and key modulations, does anyone think of them as progressive?

My favorite album of theirs is probably the concept album Seventh Son of
a Seventh Son, about the adventures of a guy with special powers.

Somewhere in Time and the new one Fear of the Dark aren't bad, I don't listen
to IM that much anymore though.

Maybe the older stuff (first couple albums) were straigtforward metal but
when you get into long pieces like Rime of the Ancient.. and Seventh Son...
there seems to be more of a progressive element.

They have a unique sound that isn't mainstream sounding at all to me, even
more commercial oriented songs like Can I Play with Madness? sound good
without that pop/poser sound.

Enough babbling...

Rob

-- 
Rob Martino                          |     (clever or particularly funny
martino@wpi.wpi.edu                  |      philosophical quote here)
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
Subject: Confessor
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:13:19 GMT
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof

Anyone heard Confessor's new album _Condemned_?

A lot of people consider them grind or death metal, but
they are progressive as hell.  Wild drums and vocals, bizarre
guitar parts and rhythms.  Very *different*, I think.

Check em out.  It's on Earache recoreds.



s
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Subject: King's X
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 20:21:42 GMT

Thought I'd forward this over from a few other groups:

Barry writes:
>pearsodc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (D) writes:
>
>>For purposes of sparing the net from the obvious, I'm retracting my RFD on  
>>rec.music.kings-x for the time being.  Defeat of the group was relatively  
>>certain and a vote on the group would have been useless.
>
>>For supporters of the group, fear not.  A King's X mailing list does exist  
>>and is put out by Barry B. (I forget the e-mail address; Barry, could you  
>>post?) and I'll likely put in a new group proposal to alt.config.
>
>
>Anyone who wants to subscribe can send email to me at:
>n8846069@henson.cc.wwu.edu
>
>-BarryB



Incidentally, has anyone seen King's X live?  They're _incredible_.



s
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:03:31 GMT


>i've seen the other lists posted, but the one above is the only 
>one i'd agree with.  to me, the others are by far way too dull 
>way too "standard" (and hence not 'progressive').  since the 
>readers here seem to be fixated on the same old same old, and 
>the soundgarden-type definition doesn't hold here, i'll 
>unsubscribe and go away now.  too bad really.


Pearl Jam?  I really like them.  But I don't see them doing
anything terribly innovative, except maybe going back to
real rock-n-roll.

Now Prong...there's a revolutionary band.  No one sounds like Prong.
They're fucking awesome.

What's "standard"?  Dream Theater?  I disagree.

From a dedicated musician and metal fan's point of view, the bands
I listed are _really_ interesting.  So are the bands in the list
you like.  But I don't consider the bands from my list to be the 
"same ole same ole", and I think a lot of the people that think
they are, aren't really listening carefully.

>standard metal-slop has all been done a thousand times before.

Standard metal-slop, IMHO, is new stuff by:

Judas Priest
Iron Maiden
Black Sabbath
etc.

All bands whose early material I *LOVE*.  Early Sabbath, Priest,
and Maiden changed my life.  But those guys have stagnated like
hell, and their new stuff is just boring, bad attempts at being
as fresh as they used to be.  I can still put on "Killers"
or "Back in the Village" or "Electric Eye" or "Snowblind" or
"The Wizard" and love it.  But their new stuff, to me, blows.

I don't think we've mentioned anything like that stuff.
Have we?

I love Soundgarden.  Have for a long time.  And Godflesh.  And
Skinny Puppy.  And Prong.  And Sepultura and Pearl Jam and 
Stravinsky and Bolt Thrower and so on.  But they don't all
necessarily fit into this newsgroup.  I'm definitely looking
for change.  I can't believe all the people on the metal groups
posting stuff like "Black Sabbath rules the world".  Jeez, wake up.
Maybe we should've called the group metal.cerebral or something.  

Ah well.



s
From: pete@introl.introl.com (Pete Ikusz)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:36:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: introl.1992Jul29.193633.20173
Organization: Introl Corp.

>>These are all normal thrash or metal bands.  Nothing really different about
>>most of them IMHO.  Does progressive just mean that they have special lyrics

Maybe to the untrained ear.. :-)

>>or something?
>
>Hmmm. I'd have to disagree about Fates Warning. Jazz influenced metal is rare.
>Plus, check out the lyrics. Poetry.
>
>Michael

Hmmm, as I was listening to Fates I popped to this group and wow, an article
pertaining exactly to what I was listening to! I don't really hear the Jazz influence.
Their sound is dissonant and I hear a few similarities to songs from Kick Axe.
(Kick Axe's second album should be considered Progressive, and a few songs from
Vices should also fall into that catagory. Now those were oldies but goodies!)

I would have to also consider some of Yngwie's stuff very progressive. Especially
Rising Force. If that's not catagorized as intellectual/progressive metal,
nothing is! IMHO of course!

Couldn't it be said that progressive metal lies somewhere between pop metal, and
metal metal, where the lyrics (not that they aren't important) seem to assist
the music in setting the tone of the song, not set the tone themselves. IE: songs
are very musicly oriented. (Which has been mentioned before) Orientation not having
to be Jazz, but can be Classical (which is also quite prevalent), among others.

-Pete
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
Pete Ikusz	Introl Corporation	pete@introl.com
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Subject: Progressive Metal?
Organization: Computing Research Lab
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:09:08 GMT


Talk about oxymorons.  What's next?  alt.folk.industrial?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Iverson				Internet: eiverson@nmsu.edu
Computing Research Lab
Box 30001/3CRL				Life is something to do when
New Mexico State University		you can't get to sleep.
Las Cruces, NM 88003-0001			-Fran Lebowitz
VOICE: (505) 646-5711	
FAX:   (505) 646-6218
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: loffit@wam.umd.edu (Dixie Cup)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:42:54 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.103011.1@urc.tue.nl> elmebm@urc.tue.nl (Bert Muller) writes:
>OK, here are a few progressive alternative metal bands I haven't seen on this 
>list yet:
>
>- Soundgarden
>- Pearl Jam
>- Prong

This is GREAT!  Just goes to show how pointless it is to classify music.
Didn't Soundgarden actually get a Grammy for one of their first albums
in a heavy metal category?  I remember the uproar among alternative fans
who didn't consider Soundgarden heavy metal.  (I'm not referring to
the Jethro Tull/Metallica incident).  But it's funny how Ministry is
supposedly an industrial band when their sound isn't industrial anymore.
It's also funny how Headbanger's Ball on MTV will play bands like Primus,
Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, and Nirvana when most of their fans don't think
their metal.  In any case, I don't care what you call the music.  If I
like it I like it, if I don't I don't.  But I guess if this newsgroup is
going to discuss progressive metal it's really going to have to agree
upon a definition because in my neck of the woods Soundgarden and Pearl Jam
aren't considered metal.  I'd like to know what they consider themselves.
Hopefully they don't care.

Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: ndarvish@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: Definitions and Categories of Music
Organization: Clark University
Date: 27 JUL 92 23:16:15 GMT


        I used to DJ on a college station where we had a very complicated
system of defining catagories of bands for filing purposes. Although the
officers, with one or two checks on the guideline sheet could figure it out,
the DJ's could not. There would be a major argument leading to a revision
every single semester untill finally we decided to put everything alphabetical
regardless of what the fuck it was.

        Arguing Catagories of music is a moot point.

        Here are some lists of types of music and they will overlap time and
time again:

        1. Pop
        2. Rock and Roll
        3. Hard Rock
        4. Acid Rock
        5. Heavy Metal
        6. Thrash Metal
        7. Speed Metal
        8. Black Metal
        9. Progressive Metal
        10. Hardcore
        11. Punk Rock
        12. Alternative
        13. Grunge
        14. Industrial
        15. Gothic
        16. Acid House
        17. House Music
        18. Club Music
        19. Black Music
        20. Rap
        21. Commercial Rap
        22. Harcore Rap
        23. Hippy Rap
        24 Easy Listening
        25. Soft Jams

        This list could go on longer.

        Stay tuned for part two.

                                Zodiac Abraxes
From: c3088@moncol.monmouth.edu (CHRIS CANE)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
Subject: NIN
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:11:30 GMT
Distribution: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

Nine Inch Nails.  Listen...

___________________________________________________________________
|\/| |_| |\| |\/| |_| \_/  |  |-|            |_ |_| |_ |_ |- |_- |-
Christopher E. Cane                       c3088@moncol.monmouth.edu
Beer Lover By Choice                       Computer User By Fortune
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: pw15@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Philip  Wang)
Subject: Re: First post!
Reply-To: pw15@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Philip  Wang)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:42:25 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.202821.24817@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> lrose@nestor.UUCP () writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.192151.5389@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans) writes:
>>Well, here it is...yet another newsgroup.  Yet another metal one,
>>to boot.  I'd like to try and set the tone here while I can.
>>It seems that there's way too much flaming and not enough
>>discussing on most of the metal groups.  If this group can avoid
>>that, it will be successful.  If not, it'll suck like the rest
>>of them.
>
>As long as we keep Maple and Sauron (spel?) off this newsgroup, we'll
>be be just fine.  Let's take advantage while they're on break.
>
Since this group was created this summer, there is no way that the option will
be open to them to subscribe to this if their mainframe doesn't tell them it
was newly created in their absence, is there? I don't think they'll know it's
here unless they have to subscribe to alt.rock-n-roll.metal and the computer
lists all newsgroups with that heading somewhere.

philip
"Inside the power cage, I can feel the music call my rage
It's paranoid, first degree. It's telling me that I'm not free.
I've got heavy metal music in my blood and I like to get it to you if I could"
-Holocaust, "Heavy Metal Mania" ||||||||| pw15@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu |||||||||
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: 93rmm@williams.edu (Rhian Merris)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: Williams College
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:35:16 GMT

Well, at least by Scott's definition (which seems to work for me)
Metallica is certainly progressive metal.  Of course, there's already
a Metallica group all by itself, but...

Lord Jagged
93rmm@williams.edu


Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: smiller@bgsu.edu (scott miller)
Subject: Bad News?
Organization: Bowling Green State Univ.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:14:14 GMT

Bad News?  Aren't they the Young Ones?

I remember seeing a video of them on a show hosted by
Dr. Demento, doing a rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody.
Would that that be the same band?

			Scott

Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: cassidy@indian.cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 21:01:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.012355.10376@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans) writes:
>randyb@calera.com  writes:

> 
>I think if you sit down and listen to _Perfect Symmetry_ by Fates Warning,
>or _Images and Words_ by Dream Theater, or _Rage for Order_ by Queesryche,
>and I mean listen _carefully_, you'll see that it's not just thrash.
>IMHO, _Perfect Symmetry_ is a work of art.  The songs are incredible,
>and the playing blows my mind.  To say there's nothing different about
>King's X or Watchtower...well, I just can't agree.

	I'll say about Rage for Order, "Gonna' get close to you." is a kick-ass jam ( except as I still think that De Garmo's solo is a little weak, acceptable variation, but weak.)  The licks that go on under the music are interesting and move the song along.  When you listen closely you find that they're not just simply flubbing the strings.  Although at first it can sound that way.

And the lyrics are first rate.  They give my wife the creeps, and she LIKES     Operation Mindcrime.

>scott

	John J Cassidy		Cassidy@indian.cps.msu.edu
	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: martino@encore.WPI.EDU (Robert Paul Martino Jr)
Subject: Essential prog metal albums
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:25:04 GMT

Just to start a thread, and mainly to help me find some good new music, what
would people say are some prog metal albums you MUST listen to.  Not just
very good albums, but albums with music you never thought was even possible!

Rob

-- 
Rob Martino                          |     (clever or particularly funny
martino@wpi.wpi.edu                  |      philosophical quote here)

Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter)
Subject: Re: Bad News?
Organization: Stellar Enterprises
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 03:16:43 GMT

In article <BrsnJq.Mvv@andy.bgsu.edu>, smiller@bgsu.edu (scott miller)
writes:
> 
> Bad News?  Aren't they the Young Ones?
> 
> I remember seeing a video of them on a show hosted by
> Dr. Demento, doing a rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody.
> Would that that be the same band?
> 
> 			Scott
> 
> 
Yup - same band, shitty music. dann
___________________________________________________| Stellar Enterprises	 
     	       	
"I know that one is left. And that once you        | private space explo...
figure out that, then the other hard is your right.| 	 Pres: dann Cutter
Then basically all you have to do is make a choice.|"because Space IS the 
But the question is, how do you figure out that    |   Final Frontier!"
first part." dann Cutter
dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu|
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Subject: Realm (was what is prog...)
Keywords: Realm
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:21:46 GMT


>Seems to me that one of the better "progressive metal" bands around would have
>to be Milwaukee, Wisconsin's pride, Realm. I have seen them live a few
times and
>I have their first album "Endless War". They can be pretty thrashy, but
always 
>with class, and style. Wild guitars, and great vocals, killer
percussion, it is
>all here. Can't remember the name of their second album, but the
material
>was awesome live. And they do a GREAT cover of "Eleanor Rigby"!!!!!


Yeah, _Endless War_ is a cool album, but I like _Suiciety_, their
second
release, even better.  They are indeed cool.  Real thrashy (which is
okay
by me) but I hear a little Voivod in there, maybe?


s
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 17:06:16 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.142257.24289@mr.med.ge.com> dexter@news.mr.med.ge.com.UUCP (Donald Dexter 4-6489) writes:

>> 
>> Seems to me that one of the better "progressive metal" bands around would have
>> to be Milwaukee, Wisconsin's pride, Realm. 
>
>well, they're not our "pride" per se.  i mean they're cool and all, but
>we do have a lot more here.  try die kreutzen, feck,  or my personal 
>favorite arion black (email me if you're interested in getting their 
>new tape _threejawchuck_). 
>
>tho i doubt that any of them fit the definition of progressive used 
>here to date (they're too interesting), both feck and arion black played 
>at this year's _metal_fest_ w/ about 30 other bands from around the world.
>

	Yeah, Milwaukee does have a fine metal fest!  And they actually get
some pretty big names they're--  that's where I first saw Sepultura.  Even
though I'm from Milwaukee, I've never heard Realm--  how would you describe
them.  

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
From: jborzell@oak.math.ucla.edu (Joseph Borzellino)
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 20:02:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.012355.10376@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans) writes:
>randyb@calera.com  writes:
>>>>So what exactly do you mean by progressive metal?
>>I second this.  What is "progressive metal"?  Alternative-ish?
>> 
>>>Some progressive metal bands:
>>>Fates Warning
>>>Dream Theater
>>>Queensryche
>>>Watchtower
>>>Toxik
>>>King Diamond
>>>King's X
>>>Athiest
>> 
>
>And anyone else, if you know of some progressive metal stuff
>that's not on the list, PLEASE add to the list...there's not
>much out there, and people like me are *dying* to hear more.

Here's some off the top of my head:

Iced Earth
Xentrix
Mercyful Fate
Voivod
Destruction (esp.  Release from agony)
Revenant
Despair

There's more.  I have to pick my brain for them.
From: gse9k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
Subject: Re: Exactly what is Prog Metal?
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:13:59 GMT
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof


>So what exactly do you mean by progressive metal?

Obviously a tough question...

>Are these good examples?
>
>Smashing Pumpkins
>Agent Orange
>Mudhoney (or would this be grunge instead?)
>Skinny Puppy


I'd say that 1 & 3 are alternative grunge kind of stuff.
I love Smashing Pumpkins.  Skinny Puppy--definitely industrial.
I like all of them but wouldn't call them progressive metal.

Some progressive metal bands:

Fates Warning
Dream Theater
Queensryche
Watchtower
Toxik
King Diamond
Annihilator
King's X
Athiest

There's a lot more, and hopefully this'll be the place
to find out about them.


s
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive