From: jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph E. Beck)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Class' power (was Re: how to imprison a psionicist)
Date: 20 Dec 92 04:54:06 GMT
	<1992Dec20.003321.7298@u.washington.edu>
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


scythe@stein.u.washington.edu (The Grim Reaper) writes:
> In article <gfAv=Vi00YUo4XlLg1@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.\
> cmu.edu> writes:
> >
> >dagolden@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Alexandre Golden) writes:

>(in reference to a psi's ability to fight then escape) 
> Not if he's been trying to dominate or disintegrate too much.
> Then he's stuck, PSIless.
Come on, these psions are pretty bright guys (INT >= 12).  I think
they're clever enough to save enough for their prob. travel/teleport
to escape.  I think most players would think of this too...

> >Y...
> >
> >       joe
> >
> >> What has to be realized is that ANY class seems overly powerful if you 
> >> create the right scenario, i.e. one suited for that class' strengths.
> >Ok, I want to hear one for a fighter or a thief.  
> >
> >       joe
> 
> Fighter: Let's first agree that thieves can be beaten by a fighter, okay?
>          Mage/Cleric/Psi#1 vs Fighter#1 - M/C/P wins, with any number of
>          abilties.
>          M/C/P#1 vs F#2 - M/C/P probably still wins.
>          M/C/P#1 vs F#3 - It's harder (less high-cost spells/powers), but
>                           M/C/P#1 still wins
Actually, the first level mage loses to the third fighter since the
mage only has 2 spells.  I'm not sure if any of them can beat the
third fighter, but the first two fighters are certainly in trouble.

>          [This continues for a while, depending on level of F and M/C/P]
>          [But then....]
>          M/C/P#1 vs F#X - Oops! Seems that M/C/P#1 is all out of PSPs/tough
>                           spells.  Looks like Fighter wins.
>          M/C/P#1 vs F#X+1 - Oops! Fighter wins again!
Congrads, you've proven an arbitrary number of fighters can "defeat" a
psion.  Where defeat is defined as the psion having to retreat and
fight again later (he has the best movement powers in the game).  Two
problems with this.  First, when I play in a campaign, I'm not given
an arbitrarily high number of fighters, I'm given one.  And if the
first one can't do the job it won't get done.  I don't have x-1 more
waiting to back me up.  Second, the psions best ability isn't even
combat!  It's in sneaking around, gathering info, etc.  So given this
I don't find it a sign of weakness that several fighters can force a
psion to retreat when fighting isn't the psion's strong point!

> Fighters don't have as much power as a mage/cleric/psi, but they can do
> it OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, and never run out.  A sword is always
> a sword.....
They can use it over and over again until they meet a spell caster,
and then they're flattened.  But I guess the spell caster isn't that
tough since he can only toast a few fighters this way before being
beaten.  
 
> Thief: This is harder, mostly because thieves are the weakest class in AD&D.
Amen.
>         But here goes.
> Thief vs Fighter - Thief backstabs.  Thief flees.  What's the fighter going
>                    to do?  He's gotta chase the Thief.  But he doesn't
>                    notice that the Thief is right behind him,
>		     hiding. 
After the first backstab, the fighter whirls around and the thief will
probably not be able to hide again.

>		     Thief
>                    backstabs again, or sets off a trap, or whatever.  
>                    Eventually, fighter go bye-bye....
Huh?  The fighter keeps turning the wrong way and the thief keeps
backstabbing him?  Sounds like a Buggs Bunny scenario.  After the
first back stab the thief is done for if he didn't kill the fighter.
  
> Thief vs Cleric - Another toughie, because clerics have a lot of hp.  But,
>                   Thief waits for cleric to fall asleep, sneaks into
>                   home/church, and steals holy symbol.  Now what's the cleric
>                   going to do?  No holy symbol = practically no spells.
>                   Bye-bye, cleric.
Go to his church, ask his god for forgiveness and a chance to blast
the snivvelling thief and get a new holy symbol with the promise of
greater service (or a donation).  And clerics get this nasty glyph of
warding spell, wyvern watch (8 hour duration), and if the thief is
caught there's this hold person spell.  I'm assuming the characters
are higher than 1st level since your thief has good scores in move
silently, pick locks, and find remove traps.   It's somewhat likely
the thief will get to the cleric (or his holy symbol) still alive.
Then the cleric beats him up (no real need for spells against a
thief) if he detects him.  And with glyphs and wyvern watches going
off it's pretty likely the thief will be noticed.  This is the problem
I have with thieves.  Their abilities sometimes work and are
completely beaten by magic (which always works).  

> 
> Thief vs Mage - This ones easy.  Sneak into mage's home, steal spellbook.
>                 Sure it's trapped, and so's his home, but F/R traps works
>                 good,
F/R traps usually works at half effectiveness against magical traps
(on some things only at 5%).  So you have high scores in F/R traps,
pick locks, and move silently.  Wonder what the spell 'alarm' does to
the chances of getting in quietly.  Wizard lock lessens them even
further.  Leomund's trap and magic mouth look like good candidates.
So do a few good guard dogs.  If a mage doesn't want someone sneaking
in they're not sneaking in.  

>  and you don't care if the mage's spellbook blows up.
>                 Mage wakes up, is slightly annoyed. 
And bursts into hysterical laughter when he realizes some poor thief
is trying to break in.

> Thief vs Psi - For all their powers, PSIs gotta sleep sometimes.  And
>                They got only d6 for hps.  And they have almost no
>                alarm-type powers that can guard them.  Bye-bye Psi.
True.  But if the psi has a long range movement power where does he
sleep?  It could be in a secluded forest retreat no one knows about
(the psion's powers are not the limiting factor either, it's does he
have the money to do this).  If he is confined to one location then
sneaking in has a chance since he has to rely on normal methods (well
locked doors, a few guard dogs, etc.).  So you have moderate chances
of getting in.  But once he gets teleportation, he's almost
untouchable...


> It's possible to set up a situation for anything to kill anything else.
> Just look at Tucker's Kobolds.
Yes, but Kobold's have advantages that thieves don't (there are almost
arbitrarily many of them, etc.). 

	joe
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA