From: Administrator@LAWNET-PO.LAW.UIOWA.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: (none)
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:38:00 GMT

Not deliverable to: dcowherd
Subject: Message not deliverable
Received: by ccmail-gateway.uiowa.edu for cc:Mail translation to SMTP
          on Tue Oct 06 11:44:08 1992
From: Administrator@lawnet-po.law.uiowa.edu
To: SF-LOVERS-WRITTEN@rutgers.edu

----------------------------------- Returned -----------------------------------
From: SF-LOVERS-WRITTEN@rutgers.edu at internet
Date: 10/6/92 9:41AM
To: dcowherd at lawnet-po
*To: SFLOVERS-RECIPIENTS@gandalf.rutgers.edu at internet
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #514
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) <sf-lovers-request@rutgers.edu>
Sender:sfl@gandalf.rutgers.edu
Errors-To:sf-lovers-errors@rutgers.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992       Volume 17 : Issue 514

Today's Topics:

                 Books - Jordan (5 msgs) & May (5 msgs) &
                         Gene Wolfe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 14:33:45 GMT
From: ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Robert Jordon's The Great Hunt

In Robert Jordon's The Great Hunt, the last line to the book reads
something like

   "Death is lighter than a feather, duty is heavier than a mountain."

Now this sounds very much like a Chinese saying, which goes something like

   "Death is lighter than a swan feather, heavier than Mount Taishan."

Could this be a mere coincidence?  Or is RJ familiar with the Chinese
culture and sayings?

W.H.Watt
Dept. of Accounting & Finance
University of Strathclyde
Glasgow, United Kingdom
w.h.watt@vaxa.strath.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 18:27:30 GMT
From: uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Robert Jordan's "THE SHADOW RISING" (spoilers!)

Summary: BIG book, I was a bit disappointed.

SPOILERS BELOW!  Don't read any furthur unless you've read the book.

Ok, I finished TSR today morning, and I was a bit miffed.  Nothing much
seems to happen in this book!  Rand and company wander around the wastes
for a bit, and end up fighting YET ANOTHER FORSAKEN (no wonder it's going
to take 7 or 8 books, he's still got 8 or so forsaken to "handle"!).
Perrin saves the day in the 2 Rivers.  Nynaeve and Elayne save the day in
Tanchico.  EOF.

The history aspect was pretty nice, I liked how we find out so much about
the Aiel (the linking w/ the Tuathanan should have been obvious, but I
missed it completely).  On the other hand, it demystifies them, and they
were my favorite people.

The Two Rivers portion was garbage IMHO, Perrin should NOT have survived.
At the least, he should have been captured by the peddler-guy or the
WhiteCloaks.  The way he saves the day and gets the girl in the end
reminded me too much of Eddings' work.

Likewise for the Tanchico portion, I find it difficult to believe that
Nynaeve could defeat one of the Forsaken.

The bit about the Amyrlin seat was beautiful, I can't wait to see how it
turns out (unfortunately, it'll probably be that Siuan is magically
restored by some angreal, she gets back the Tower, and lives happily ever
after).

The ending was not satisfactory, I find it hard to believe Lanfear didn't
even bother searching the area for the woman-half of that super-angreal,
take the one from Rand, kill Asmodeus, try to contact Shaitan, etc.
Asmodeus seemed pretty wimpy as well, although I guess that's his
character.  And how did that other Aiel-psuedo-chief get the markings on
his hand?  Who would draw it for him (perhaps he's a darkfriend, and asked
one of the forsaken?).

All in all, I feel the entire series is moving more towards formulae than
originality now.  I hope I'm wrong.

Parik Rao
prao@cs.ucsb.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 19:55:22 GMT
From: dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca (Deepak CHHABRA)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: The Dragon Reborn / Did Jordan mess up?

cboeker@bnr.ca writes:
>Did you notice that each of the three boys (Mat, Perrin and Rand) thought
>that the other two were better with girls?  Although it was a bit
>repetitious I found it amusing (and will admit it took me a while to catch
>on )

I noticed it fairly early on, so I never really considered it repetitive.
But it was definitely funny.

Regarding Jordan's mess-up: in Chapter 52 (In Search of a Remedy), Mat
takes Thom to Mother Guenna to heal his cough.  He identifies himself as
Mat Cauthon.  No problem here.  However, when he asks about Nynaeve,
Egwene, and Elayne, she responds "...You are too late, **Matrim**
Cauthon..."  Yet nobody ever said his full name was Matrim.  Three times
after that, she calls him Mat Cauthon.

Did anybody else notice this?  And if not, does anyone else think it's an
outright mistake?  I'm discounting the possibility that Mother Guenna is
more than she seems to be.  It wouldn't make a great deal of sense if she
were, and I don't think it's realistic to expect that Mat himself wouldn't
have noticed her knowledge of his full name.  It's perhaps possible that
Mat is a known short form for Matrim, but I don't buy that theory either.
Any thoughts?

dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 21:48:05 GMT
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Robert Jordan's "THE SHADOW RISING" (spoilers!)

uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu:
>Perrin should NOT have survived...

One of the strengths of the series is also one of its greatest weaknesses -
the idea that the main characters are ta'vern (sp?) - people whose effects
upon fate make them, among things, the foci of far-fetched coincidence and
happenstance.  This serves to explain away any improbability in the story,
but it also frees the author from the obligation to keep his plot devices
credible.

Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 22:16:39 GMT
From: bell@ecs.umass.edu
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Robert Jordan's "THE SHADOW RISING" (spoilers!)

uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao) writes:
> SPOILERS BELOW!  Don't read any furthur unless you've read the book.
>
>The history aspect was pretty nice, I liked how we find out so much about
>the Aiel (the linking w/ the Tuathanan should have been obvious, but I
>missed it completely).  On the other hand, it demystifies them, and they
>were my favorite people.

   I liked this a lot.  I'd forgotten what the Tuathanan were like so I
didn't make the connection until Perrin saw them again.

>Likewise for the Tanchico portion, I find it difficult to believe that
>Nynaeve could defeat one of the Forsaken.

   You have to remember that Nynaeve, Egewene and Elayne are supposed to be
the strongest Aes Sedai to come around for a long time.  It's very possible
that Forsaken (forget her name) was overconfident and was cocky and got
beaten.

>The bit about the Amyrlin seat was beautiful, I can't wait to see how it
>turns out (unfortunately, it'll probably be that Siuan is magically
>restored by some angreal, she gets back the Tower, and lives happily ever
>after).

   I was very surprised about what happened at the White Tower.  Siuan
isn't going to get her powers back, though.  I believe Egewene will be the
next Amyrlin seat.  Min sees Gawyn bow to her and Perrin sees Nynaeve and
Elayne and other women (don't remember if they were specifically Aes Sedai)
bowing to her as well.

>The ending was not satisfactory, I find it hard to believe Lanfear didn't
>even bother searching the area for the woman-half of that super-angreal,
>take the one from Rand, kill Asmodeus, try to contact Shaitan, etc.
>Asmodeus seemed pretty wimpy as well, although I guess that's his
>character.  And how did that other Aiel-psuedo-chief get the markings on
>his hand?  Who would draw it for him (perhaps he's a darkfriend, and asked
>one of the forsaken?).

   I don't get Lanfear.  I don't know if she's supposed to love Lews Therin
so much that she wants Rand to come to her willingly and she isn't willing
to push that even for the super-angreal.  By the way wasn't the statue a
ter'angeal that linked the holder to the strongest sa'angreals?
  I can't come up with a viable reason for the pseudo-chief having the
dragons on his arms either.

>All in all, I feel the entire series is moving more towards formulae than
>originality now.  I hope I'm wrong.

   I still thought it was a great book and can't wait for the others to
come out.  These are all just my honest opinions and are open to
discussion, but no flames please.

Shane L. Bell
bell@ecs.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 92 17:26:17 GMT
From: mehers@rutile.enet.dec.com (Damian Mehers)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Julian May

Talking about Julian May, does anyone have any clues as to the identity of
'Fury' from JTB?

How's about Felice/Cullaket, with a dash of Victor ...

Damian

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 92 00:26:21 GMT
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Julian May and Fury (spoilers)

Damian Mehers (mehers@rutile.enet.dec.com) wrote:
>Talking about Julian May, does anyone have any clues as to the identity of
>'Fury' from JTB?

(This thread came up a few months ago, before JtB had been released in
Australia, so I partially avoided it then because of spoilers).

>How's about Felice/Cullaket, with a dash of Victor ...

(I haven't got my books with me, and I have only had the chance to read JtB
once so far, but here goes)..

Most definitely Felice. In Jtb, Fury refers to MacGregor as the Great
Enemy, this would have resulted from the encounters between Felice and
Aiken Drum in the Pliocene. Fury then changes the Enemy to the Remillards
for the time being. There are a few other hints in JtB, such as Atoning
Unifex/Family Ghost/Marc's familiarity with it (at the passing of Victor,
when the Family Ghost saves Rogi from Fury).

As for Victor, I possibly favor the idea Fury influenced Victor, and not
the other way around. Victor could have learned the subsumption trick (the
draining) from Fury - it's identical to what Hydra is now using.

Aaron Wigley

------------------------------

Date: 4 Oct 92 15:49:13 GMT
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Julian May and Fury (spoilers)

Okay, I've now got references to back this up :-)

Damian Mehers (mehers@rutile.enet.dec.com) wrote:
>Talking about Julian May, does anyone have any clues as to the identity of
>'Fury' from JTB?

Evidence for Marc being the Family Ghost:
   Very last page of "Intervention", Rogi calls the Ghost by the name of
Marc, after some small talk.

>Most definitely Felice. In Jtb, Fury refers to MacGregor as the Great
>Enemy, this would have resulted from the encounters between Felice and
>Aiken Drum in the Pliocene.

Evidence for Felice/Culliket being Fury:
   Prologue One, from "The Adversary", when Elizabeth, Minanonn, Dionket
and Creyn assisted at the Rio Genil:

   `Deep under thousands of tons of steaming rock at a shallow ford
in the Rio Genil, a tiny thing like a ruby cylinder burned whitely at
the core . . .
   "I've found Felice." Elizabeth opened her eyes, transmitted the
image to Minanonn. "And Cull, too."
   Elizabeth! they live?
   You might call it that. Or suspension. Or limbo.
   Such a state beyond understanding.
   Not myunderstanding! I have been. [Fiery cocoon image.]
   Tana--! You humans. But Cull . . .
   . . . is there of his freechoice. Lifeclinging.
   Suffering Withoutend!
   Alive nonetheless in pseudoUnity.
   `
   Felice survived, and was placed inside the Room without Doors, from
which not even Marc could touch her. In effect, Felice/Culliket became the
first Lylmik.

I wrote:
>As for Victor, I possibly favor the idea Fury influenced Victor, and
>not the other way around. Victor could have learned the subsumption
>trick (the draining) from Fury - it's identical to what Hydra is now
>using.

Another reference I found in "Intervention". Could Kieran O'Connor's
"Black Mother" be Fury? From page 623 of the paperback Intervention:
  "Forgive me Black Mother soon I will return. ..."
and then over the page:
  " .. It should have been the daughter to inherit the night,
  not the daughter's daughter. But Kali would have her jest . . . O
  Mother of Power, forgive her as  you forgive me.
   She would be coming, even though he had forbidden it, eager for the
final trachery. So be it. Devouring Mother I would give her to you myself
if I could. But I dare not waste the least spark of my dwindling powers.
Please understand.

Dam dham nam tam

Aaron Wigley

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 19:09:14 GMT
From: REBECCA@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Rebecca Drayer)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Julian May and Fury (spoilers)

ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley) writes:
>Evidence for Felice/Culliket being Fury:
>
>   Felice survived, and was placed inside the Room without Doors, from
>which not even Marc could touch her. In effect, Felice/Culliket became the
>first Lylmik.

How do you figure?  I thought that the Lylmik were left over from the
universe before the Big Bang.  (I think it says this in the Pliocene
Companion.)  Maybe it's possible for them to become a Lylmik (as Marc
apparently did), but they couldn't have been the first.  (Besides, the
Lylmik like humans.  I don't think Felice does.  :-))

Rebecca A. Drayer
Silliman College, Yale University
P.O. Box 6349 Yale Station
New Haven, CT 06520
Rebecca@Yalevm.YCC.Yale.edu

------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 22:32:43 GMT
From: u920065@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Dean Bailey)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Jack the bodiless

  A couple of months ago I noticed J.M's long awaited book "Jack the
bodiless" sitting in a bookshop here in Tassie (that's near the Australian
mainland).  Unfortunately it was bound in plastic so you could read nothing
of the blurb. A couple of days later, it disappeared and I have not seen it
since. Has anyone read it, if so what's it like?

Thanks.

Dean Bailey

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 92 16:48:11 GMT
From: joak@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff

I remember a thread from a month or so back where Wolfe's stuff was being
discussed, and various people claimed to know most of what was going on.
Well, I am not one of those people.  If anyone could e-mail me or post on
the following, I will surely die of gratitude.  My brain is under too much
strain as it is.

There may be SPOILERS below.

1.  Who Severian's mother is.  I have a hunch that's she's Dorcas, tortured
    by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in.
2.  Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note in the
    inn by the Sanguinary Fields is.  Is he the one that married Dorcas at
    the end?
3.  That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was that her
    husband?
4.  That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which
    universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take place,
    and how are they related.
5.  The first Claw that Severian got - was it really "magical"?  Or did it
    glow because of previous contact with the past Severian?  Or did it
    glow because Severian wanted it to?
6.  Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so.
7.  Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory?  I had at first
    thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one would wait
    until the next person with perfect memory came along, and then groom
    him for the Autarchy.
8.  Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?
9.  Was the Citadel originally a "space ship"?  There were some references
    to "cabins" for the journeyman with "portholes", and Severian once
    says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the tower just blasted off
    into space like it was meant to.
10. What happened during the time between Shadow, I think, and the next
    part, at the Wall, that separated Severian and Jonas from the rest?
11. Did that guy who helped Severian and A-wozname and Dorcas out in the
    lake of the dead (or whatever it was called) die in that episode at the
    end of one of the books with the witches and Apu-Punchau?
12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau?  I don't think I can get it
    straight without a bit of help...
13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and kill
    him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they met?
14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed
    between universes?  I was kind of unclear on this (along with
    everything else I'm asking about).
15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in?  It's from one of his past lives,
    right?
16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates, or
    something, right?
17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the past,
    right?

Well, that's all I can think of or remember right now, I'll probably have
more later.  Maybe I'll reread the books.

Was anyone else impressed by the scope of these novels?  It was neat how
you get to see Typhon's mountain in progress after you see the finished
product - the sheer scale is impressive, yet the Citadel dwarfs that
project, and the Wall is even larger than I can really picture being built.

Yeesh, my mind just shorted out, so I guess I should go.

Jon Kung

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written