From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Can boxing skills handle kicking?
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:46:54 GMT



Graeme Bennett writes:
>Competitive karateka are often weak.  They train to spar and not to
>kill.  People who follow the way do not subject themselves to debasing
>events such as tournaments where the individual is only after fame or
>money.


And what way is that?  Did you ever hear of someone doing competition
because they enjoy it?  I know plenty of people that make $40,000
and up and do competitions because they enjoy them.

The one point I do agree on though is that many times people in
competition worry to much about "scoring" in a competition area
rather than training for a regular "streetfight".


>I am absolutely appalled by 'Boxing Footwork' which is actually a good
>candidate for an oxymoron.  They seem to just randomly place their feet
>and appear to dance around as if they have glass up their arses. 

Your comment is usually that of a novice to any art.  Many arts seem
to be just doing something easy and stupid to a novice, while something
else entirely different is happening.  There is actually alot
of footwork involved in boxing, and much of it get's engrained to the
boxer's mind.  There's a certain shuffling involved, certain footpatterns,
certain ways of moving right/left/forwards/backwards.  The footwork
must let the boxer maintain a certain center of ballance that is needed.
Of course to someone that hasn't taken the time to have been there
in that boxers training, it looks like he's just stepping around
randomly.
The dancing around is part of a boxing philosophy that a moving target
is harder to hit.  While this is true, I personally don't agree with
the extent to which they move around.  It tires you out very quick.
Even though they train to have alot of stamina to be able to do
this, for our purposes it's not necissary or advised.

>They
>then make some form of stance and randomly fire punches in the air,

Another observation typical to that of a novice to the art, or
any other for that matter.  Boxing IS a scientific fighting art.
Punches are not thrown at random.  There's much going on that
involves timing (tempo), cadence, choice targets, setups,
counterpunching, drawings, fakes, combinations, jabs, crosses,
leads, straights, corkscrews, uppercuts, rounds, and many other
nuances.  Of course to the novice who sits there and catches
a boxing match on TV or something, it looks like they stand there
and "randomly fire punches".

>occasionally hitting their target with an amount of power proportional
>to their muscular strength.

NO WAY.  That's one of the biggest misslead statements I have ever read.
If that were true, boxers would only be applying a force equal to that
of their weight.  But boxers are well known powerfull hitters,
often hitting with a force well above their body weight.  Why?  Because
they use alot of forward momentum in their punches, often punching
through the target itself.  The punch starts in a strong rooted stance,
works it's way up as he propells himself forward, further builds up
momentum with the added twist of the upper body, and futher adds
force by the muscles pushing "through" the target.  The entire
movement acts like whip, propelling the boxers entire weight
behind the punch.  This is why when a boxer punches he will lean
forward on his front leg as the punch connects.  Their rotational
movements also helps to create a powerfull momentum when doing 
body shots.  Their muscular strength only adds to the follow thru.
A good boxer puts his entire weight behind his punch, using proper
footwork positioning and upper body movements.  The muscles are
only one link in the structure that produces a VERY powerfull hit.
Momentum is the biggest part.


>These punches are easy to block by
>themselves, and when in rapid succession can be dodged or you can lean
>back and smash their ribcage with a kick. 

Hehehe.  I see.  So like...you have done this against a contender?
You have actually gotten into the ring and like....wailed on Evander
Hollyfield, or Mike Tyson by dodging their "slow moving" punches?
Yah, I suppose my grandmother could probably dodge Hector Cumacho's
punches. 
My friend, ANY punch looks slow from a distance or on TV.  That's
why you have about 50 guys sitting in a bar going "Oh, do this,
or oh come on you could have dodged that."  When you're actually there fighting
the person, it's a totally differen't beast.

As for kicking, I take it you don't know much about distancing?
Boxing is an INFIGHTING art.  It's used in close range.
Often closer range than your are able to get kicks up.  The
only thing remotely close is maybe knee kicks.  Boxers aren't going
to just sit there and flail away blindly as you seem to suggest.
It's a thinking art.  I've seen martial artists fight boxers on
a martial artsts terms, and sure the ma's get a few could kicks
in when the boxer is closing the distance.  But once the boxer
get's in, the ma's loose it.  They can't deal with that inclose
fighting.  Boxer's are also VERY good at distancing.  Many are
able to go in and out and hit at will.

>In every boxing fight I have seen,
>there are long periods where either fighter has an opening that they do
>not take, but instead stand there panting and drooling.  They do not
>seem to understand the word 'strategy' which is the underlying principle
>of a true martial art.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Did you ever stop to think that that's why they are
standing there?  Sizing up the oponent, looking at any openings,
going over what has worked and what hasn't, and forming an overall
strategy to use?  And I suppose their trainers in the corners
are yelling "Stand there and drool!" rather than giving them usefull
tips against the other opponent?
They're "working" the opponent.  It's something that's very hard to
do.  Of course to the average couch potato, it looks like he's
standing there drooling, not taking advantage of openings.

>They either attack or block punches with their
>faces.

Hehe.  Why of course.  Why didn't I ever come up with that realization.



>You cannot clinch in the real world.  When a boxer clinches with a martial
>artist (a good one) they are open to a multitude of attacks, to
>which they have no defence (except for, perhaps their thick skulls :)
>They are worse at close range.


ROFL!!!!!

My friend, you seem to be doing the novice mistake of comparing Boxing
the sport with boxing the art.  What you see in the ring is guided
by rules and regulations as is any sport.  No hit's below the belt,
no sweeping, no eye gouging or using elbows, no traps, etc.
If you think that a boxing artist is going to play by those rules out
of the ring, you are sadly mistaken.

And if anything is an oxymoron, it's that last statement.
BOXING IS CLASSIFIED AS AN INFIGHTING ART.  Look it up.


>Todd, you seem to be comparing sparring forms of martial-arts (probably
>karate, TKD) where target areas are limited, and only certain techniques
>can be used to boxing because of restrictive rules.

Graeme, you seem to be comparing sporting forms of boxing to that
of the fighting arts, where target areas are limited, and only certain
strategies can be used because of the restictive rules of the SPORT.

>You *cannot* compare
>boxing to a true martial art. 

Boxing is a martial art.  Get with the program.  It's been around
as a fighting form for over a 1000 years, since the days of the early
greeks even.  Boxing as a sport evolved along side it as the need
to prove who was best without killing one another developed.

>Boxers train always within the rules.

Boxers train to do their techniques to the best of their abilities.
The rules are added later.
I can gaurentee that if you take Mike Tyson and put him in a street fight,
that he will not be standing there saying "Hey!  You hit me below the
belt!".  He will also be using the techniques he does best, 
only with a "non-sport" strategy and application.


>Marital artist train without rules and restrict themselves in a
>competition.

Oh really?  I see....that's must be why they cary martial artists
out of the dojo or kwoon everyweek with missing eyes, punctured
intestines, or even dead as a doorknob.
ANY training is restricted in some way.

Boxers train to perfect their techniques without any rules.
The rules come about later in play.  I can gaurantee you
that they can just as easily apply their techniques and
skill without the rules.

>It also depends very much on individuals. The perfect individual will be
>many times more lethal doing martial arts than doing boxing. There is no
>comparison.

Depends what your talking about.  The chosen area to fight has alot
to do with it.  On the street a person that fits your above description
will have it one up.  However, a person who incorporates boxing "techniques"
into their style is a little different.
I've also seen many martial artists that can whip a boxers but out of the
ring, yet when they step in to the ring they loose it.  Even if there are
no rules.  Why?  Because you are fighting in a boxer's territory.
They know how to use and work that ring, that enclosed space to their
advantage.


You also seem to be lopping all martial arts together.  There are plenty
of martial arts that specialize in only one area.

My advice to you is to go to a REAL boxing gym.  The type where 
prizefighters train at.  Ask to step into the ring with one of them
and tell them that you are superior because you study asian martial
arts.  See what happens.
Don't judge by what you see looking at the television.  There are
those that sit there and say they could do this this and that, and
then there are those that actually do it.


Marty

Do