HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mitchell@cwis.unomaha.edu (Dennis Mitchell)
Subject: Waxing New Car? (Saturn SL-1)
Summary: when should I wax a new car?
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:17:20 GMT

I just got a 1993 Saturn SL-1, so far, so good.  Since the birds have
already started in on it, it seems that a coat of wax is in order.  
One friend has suggested that I wait a while for the paint to 'cure'
before I wax it.  

Can anyone offer some more knowledgeable advice on the subject?  For the
record, the car is white with a clearcoat paint job.



Xref: sparky rec.autos:27732 misc.consumers:19437 misc.kids:29048 sci.med:21429
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers,misc.kids,sci.med
Subject: Re: Seat Belts Releasing in Crashes: Institute for Injury Reduction
Date: 23 Nov 1992 23:00:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) says:

>00bndaniels@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov20.002400.23792@netcom.com>, feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel) writes:
>>	What HELL are you talking about??  Do you mean a large 
>>John Deer tractor?  Or a small lawn and garden type???  HOW IN 
>>THE HELL DID YOU MANAGE TO RUN INTO THE TRACTOR?  Were you on a 
>>farm field or a lawn??  
>>	Thanks
>
>How do you think tractors get to all their fields, by airlift?
>
>In the midwest, in the months from April thru October, it's not
>too uncommon to see tractors on rural (and some NOT so rural)
>roads.
>
>allen

yup! and, at least where i come from, they are usually driven by the
12 year old sons of the men who own them...kinda scary!..in fact, some
of the kids i've seen on them are evenyounger..they drive the tractor
cuz they CANT SEE to drive the truck!  cops NEVER stop them, either..
but then, so goes life in rural ranching towns!
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: coriale@casper.serum.kodak.com (Matthew Coriale (x37975))
Subject: Re: Ford Probe - invoice prices wanted
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:09:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.061747.29528@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <2B09CC15.21923@news.service.uci.edu> jroersma@orion.oac.uci.edu
>(John Roersma) writes:
>>Hello everyone.  Does anyone happen to know the dealer
>>invoice prices for the '93 Probe (4 cylinder manual with AC)?
>
>That's way too new for some of the "invoice price" books, but
...
Not true.  I bought a 93 4cyl two months ago and I found the prices
in one of the off-the-shelf books.  I don't remember which one, tho.
As a result, I was able to get mine for $250 over invoice.  I know this
because I got to see the invoice, and it was pretty much dead-on to the
book.
...
>Forget the Probe.  It's a repackaged Mazda; the Mazda has a better
>warranty.

I looked at the Mazda, too.  I didn't like the styling of the interrior.
I _much_ preferred the Probe.  The Mazda looked boxy, while the probe
looks more sleek and driver focused.

In comparison to the Saturn... I really liked the SC, however, I thought
for the price I got the Probe for, I got a more driver-oriented car.

My only complaints about the probe: not enough room in the console for
garage door openers, sunglasses, casettes, etc..  I have also found that
the 4cyl is pretty good "off the line", but lacks the serious get up and
go at highway-passing speed.  Other than that, it's a great car to drive!

- Matt Coriale

coriale@serum.kodak.com
My views. Not Kodak's. Plain and simple.
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech
From: rjwade@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade)
Subject: Re: extended warranty & security system
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:28:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.233332.28060@cbnewse.cb.att.com> hemant@cbnewse.cb.att.com (hemant.b.bhatt) writes:
>I want to buy Plymouth Voyager Minivan.
>
>(1) Should I buy 7 year 70,000 miles extended warranty?
>
>(2) What kind of Alarm system should I buy?
>
>(3) Should I buy sunscreen glass or not? And How wise is it to
>    get winows sunscreened later on if needed to do it? My wife
>    wants clear glass now.     
>
>Thank you.


a1: never buy extended warranties
a2: don't buy an alarm...buy a cheapo flashing lite or install a kill switch
    somewhere...or combinations thereof.
a3: wait on the tinting...no problem with having it done years later.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dwjz@bnr.ca (Doug Zolmer)
Subject: Re: G20 vs. Altima, Fast vs. Slow
Reply-To: dwjz@bnr.ca (Doug Zolmer)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:37:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.181958.21863@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca>, fengxi@prancer.eche.ualberta.ca (Fengxi Zhou) writes:
|> There was quite a debate about how a door lock affect the quality of a car.
|> At any rate the Altima has a real great sounding lock (better even than M-B?
|> Oooops, just opened a Pandora's box again).  But I looked around and failed to
|> locate that tiny "stanza" mark.  Is there actually one?
|> 

Only on the American Altimas.  

|> About the looks, tapered tails can be real nice.  Just look at the original
|> Jaguar XJ-6 Series III.  The Bonny SSE is alright, too.  But Peugeot (sp?) had
|> a fairly ugly tail on its 404(?) (and later Romanian Darcia).  And Nissan went
|> too far.  Just saw an Altima this morning.  It almost looks like a different
|> look for different look's sake.  At any rate, what's wrong with that "wedged
|> look"?  The new Probe looks fantastic!
|> 
|> Just my 2 cents.

-- 
dwjz@bnr.ca    Disclaimer: my opinions only
From: philg@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Philip Greenspun)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford lemons
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:49:56
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
Reply-To: philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: zug.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: crowede@ucs.orst.edu's message of 20 Nov 92 22:59:07 GMT


In article <1ejqjrINN260@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> crowede@ucs.orst.edu (Debra Crowe) writes:

   I'm not sure why everyone thinks Fords are Lemons... 

We don't all think that all Fords are Lemons!  It is just that every
Lemon-owning Ford on the Internet has apparently gotten totally
screwed by the people legally responsible for the car: Ford Motor
Company.

Of course every car company has to make a few lemons.  The question is
"Do they hire ten engineers to fix the problem or 100 lawyers to
litigate the unfortunate consumers into the ground?"

Ford apparently prefers to hire lawyers.


--

      -- Philip Greenspun

-------------------------------------------------------------
MIT Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
545 Technology Square, Rm 433, Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-8574
From: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Cadillacs (WAS: INFFINITI vs BMW)
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:58:40 GMT
Reply-To: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com
Organization: G.M. Research and Environmental Staff

In article 92Nov18133713@atlantis.Cayman.COM, carl@Cayman.COM (Carl Heinzl) writes:
|>
|>>The Allante with the Northstar engine makes 60 in 6.7 seconds if I remember
|>>right.  And Road&Track LOVED the handling too.....
|>
|>>Not to mention the thing has a FANTASTIC-sounding exhaust!
|>
|>Well, the Allante is already a 60k car even before the Nortstar
|>engine.  How much extra will the Northstar add - it will probably put
|>it into the 70k range, so for only 25k more than a Q45 you can get
|>exactly the same acceleration.  Hmmm, which one would *I* buy :^)

If you want an Allante, don't wait too long. Cadillac announced today
that the ALlante will be phased out at the end of the '93 model 
year.

---
	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research and Environmental Staff
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.


Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving
From: ashaw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (andrew.shaw)
Subject: Re: How To Drive the RIGHT way!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:08:37 GMT

>>In article <Zyg4TB4w164w@cellar.org>, blu@cellar.org (Dan Reed) writes:
>>> 
>>>                    High Speed driving Tips, by Dan Reed
>>>                                  (Humor)
>>>   This file will help you be a better driver on the great road spans in
>>> the US.  If you follow these simple rules, you will be a safer driver,
>>> and other drivers will thank you for it.
>>>  
>>>  

Also, if you are coming up on someone in the left lane, and they
move right into a gap to let you pass, do not, under any circumstances,
complete the pass before they have to brake to avoid hitting the car
at the head of the gap.  After all, they were going slower than you,
so why shouldn't they want to go slower yet?
From: delanzo@hri.com (Michael DeLanzo)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: ______ 1987 Camry LE Wagon ________
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:22:58 GMT
Reply-To: delanzo@hri.com
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.


Anyone have any experience with this car? Good/bad/reliable???

1987 is the first year for the Camry Wagon. Has this been a problem?


Thanks - md
From: tso@Apple.COM (Victor Tso)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Sunroof for Grand Cherokee?
Keywords: Grand Cherokee Jeep sunroof
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:57:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA


Does 93 Grand Cherokee have an option to put in
a MANUFACTURE sunroof?  How much does the sunroof
cost?  There is a computer console in the Limited or
Wagoneer version of Grand Cherokee, how do they put 
in a sunroof in these 2 models?

Thanks for all the information in advance.

Victor Tso
tso@apple.com
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Fast Japanese Sports Cars
Date: 19 Nov 1992 22:18:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mike%jim.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu (Mike S.) says:

>
>>3000 VR-4:  Ugly, ugly, and ugly.  Did I forget to mention:  it is U-G-L-Y?
>
>Ugly??!  That is one word I definately would NOT use to describe the 
>3000GT!
>
>Mike
IS SO!!(welcome to Kindergarten the second time!)   (   :-)....for those of us)
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: greg@cherokee.b23b.ingr.com (Greg Moritz)
Subject: Re: Hot rods & clunkers  (Was: Eth Bl Gas ... )
Reply-To: greg@cherokee.b23b.ingr.com (Greg Moritz)
Organization: Dazix, An Intergraph Company
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:31:41 GMT

harling@miki.pictel.com (Dan Harling) wrote:
> greg@cherokee.b23b.ingr.com (Greg Moritz) writes:
> >Famous argument; 'Takes energy to make a new car
> >I have never seen a definitive comparison

> Nor have I, but I suspect that the pollution created in scrapping an
> old car and manufacturing a new one would equal that generated by a
> well-maintained older car for a significant number of years.  Even
> apart from the pollution due to material usage, consider the amount of
> energy expended in manufacturing and machining.

What's significant?  One?  Ten?  It's just a guess until someone runs 
the numbers.

> >...a new Crown Vic.  It's a gas-hog next to a Saturn, but it is
> >a fuel-misor next to a smoke-belching mid-seventies piece of V8 iron.
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is obviously a stereotype; at least, "smoke-belching mid-seventies
> piece of V8 iron" sounds more like a prejudice to me than a
> qualification.

It might be a stereotype to some people, but my usage here was deliberate.
I'm not interested in seeing all older cars removed.  Only 
 "smoke-belching mid-seventies piece of V8 iron.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> At this very minute, someone out there is thinking, "is there
> *any other kind* of old car?"

That is because there *are* so many smoke-belching ...

Like I said, if those can be removed, the pressure on the rest of us, who
maintain our older cars will be lessened.

> Nevertheless, I am completely in agreement with the strategy of
> providing incentives to get those old cars that *do* belch smoke either
> repaired or off the road, so that they no longer give a bad name to the
> older cars that the rest of us maintain in top condition.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: fengxi@prancer.eche.ualberta.ca (Fengxi Zhou)
Subject: Re: G20 vs. Altima, Fast vs. Slow
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:27:40 GMT

fengxi@prancer.eche.ualberta.ca (Fengxi Zhou) writes:
: shyguy@ocf.berkeley.edu (David S. Shy) writes:
: 
: : As far as I can tell, speedometers are not really a measure of how fast
: : a car can go.  (but this is only from my own personal experience.)  As far
: : as I know and from my firends experimentations, *most* cars can go faster
: : than what the speedometers says... except our family's '84 volvo... it
: :
: Well, the speedo on my 92 civic sedan says it can "possibly" reach 240kph 
: (150mph?).  But I think I really need a pair of afterburners to do that.

Ooops, it is really 220kph (>135mph) (No, it's not VTEC engine).  Well, two
afterburners may be too many.  But one is still needed. 
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers,misc.kids,talk.politics.medicine,sci.med
From: harling@miki.pictel.com (Dan Harling)
Subject: Re: Seat Belts Releasing in Crashes: Institute for Injury Reduction
Organization: PictureTel Corporation
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:12:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.181541.21373@netcom.com> sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller) writes:
>I had been planning to stay out of this one.  So much for one's plans.
>IMO, you're all missing the point here.  Whether or not my eardrums
>are at risk due to airbag inflation is not an interesting issue to me.
>Whether or not my face impacts the steering wheel at N mph IS.

<soapbox ON>
What good is an airbag going to do me if I am already wearing a fixed,
three-point belt (i.e., lap and shoulder belt, all fastened to the body
of the car, not the door)?  My face has no chance to impact the
steering wheel, no matter *how* my car is hit.

By requiring passive restraints, consumers are limited to annoying and
sometimes ineffective automatic belts (many of which do nothing about
the more important lap belt), or air bags, which add several hundred
dollars to the price of the car for something you will use at most
once, and will only be effective under certain circumstances.

If fixed, manual belts were again permitted with no additional
restraint, there would be no way to guarantee that people would use
them, but it would provide reliable protection to those who do--more
than either automatic belts or air bags--at minimal cost to the
manufacturer and consumer.

Rather than trying to convince drivers that failure to use safety belts
is a foolish risk and a small price to pay for safety, or refusing to
pay medical insurance claims when the insured was guilty of
contributory negligence in not wearing proper safety equipment, the
powers that be decided to protect people from themselves.

As a result, many people drive no differently than they ever did, and
make no additional effort to ensure their physical safety, although
they are protected despite themselves in a limited set of
circumstances.  Meanwhile, the more conscientious drivers are not given
the option of taking their safety back into their own hands by owning
and *using* simpler, superior equipment.
<soapbox OFF>

Can you tell this is one of my pet peeves?
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                 PictureTel, but they ought to be!
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: atovorni@engr.UVic.CA (Andreas  Tovornik)
Subject: Re: CONSUMER REPORTS
Reply-To: atovorni@engr.UVic.CA
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 01:21:27 GMT

In article Gz2@news.cso.uiuc.edu, cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast) writes:
>	In reply to a reply of one of my posts:
>
>	I congratulate you on not letting CR make your mind up for you on these
>issues.  I don't get CR anymore (my dad got it for a while, but stopped.), but
>last summer I saw them tell people that the Diamond Star triplets are a 
>substitution for the Saturn SC.  The SC tops off at $17K, while the Diamonds
>are just getting started at that range.  They are NOT the same type of car at
>any stretch of the imagination.  Also, I've seen tests with Barettas (sp?)
>compared with 240sx's.  They, even according to C/D, are not the same type of
>car.  The Baretta has a functional back seat, and they differ on other issues,
>too.  So IMHO, CR simply knows nothing about what they are talking about.

Agreed. Lots of ignorant folks read Crappy Reports and buy according to the
written word. At least they could do better by asking car enthusiasts about
our opinions.

However, some folks do not care for performance or fun while motoring. My
parents own two cars and they are in their sixties. They always buy their cars new,
I always buy them used because I can get better wheels for my money that way.

Their older one is a 1984 Escort. It is a shitbox like I keep telling them. 
The old man defends it by saying that it started every morning since the day 
he bought it and still gets him to work on time every day.

Their other car is a 1990 Pontiac 6000 fully loaded. I asked the folks why they
replaced their Skylark(which was stolen the same month it was all paid for),
a cool little car despite the FWD. They said that it has power everything and
air and they always wanted one because it had a bigger trunk than the Buick.
They don't care how it corners or accelerates, They just want to get where they're
going in a relaxed way since they will be retiring soon and will have all the
time in the world. 

The folks do not read CR, but CR is aimed at people like them.
To them, my '87 Formula is the same as the six cylinder Ford Maverick
that they drove in the 'seventies, only worse because you have to bend
down lower to get into it! :+)

Torque Monger 



Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.antique,alt.autos.rod-n-custom,alt.autos.antique,rec.autos.sport
From: adh@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.d.hay)
Subject: Re: SEMA Show (some comments)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:21:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.224518.18895@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund) writes:
"  BTW - Linda, as in Vaughn, the He[a]rst linkage rep

is there any other than the One True Linda?

-- 
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Hay	|		one step beyond the outer limits  of	       |
a_d_hay@att.com	|		the twilight zone in the darkened room	       |
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: sbender@navajo.dsd.es.com (Steve Bender)
Subject: Re: Extended Warranty (3rd party recommendations)
Keywords: Extened Warranty 
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:36:24 GMT

In article <BxoEAu.4v8@world.std.com>, sandyb@world.std.com (Sandy Bendremer) writes:
|> I am just about to take delivery on a new Ford (Taurus SHO).  Can anyone
|> recommend or provide a list of 3rd party extended warranty providers.
|> 
|> My goal would be to have as good (or better) coverage than Ford's program,
|> at lower cost.  

Like other forms of "insurance", extended warranties are only offered because
they are money-making ventures.  A dealership or third party will not offer
an extended warranty on your car unless they expect you to pay more for the
warranty than it will cost them to fulfill the warranty (by a very comfortable 
margin).

If you believe that an extended warranty from a third-party is necessary, why
not consider yourself the third-party and and open up a savings account with
the money you'd expect to pay for the warranty... If a problem occurs with
the car (that would be covered under the extended warranty), use the cash
you've salted away.  Odds are that you'll never need to touch it.

-- 
Steve Bender
Evans & Sutherland
(801) 582-5847
Salt Lake City, UT 84108

sbender@dsd.es.com

Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers.house
From: sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund)
Subject: Re: hard water spots
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 20:53:21 GMT

In article <BxvEwJ.BtL@agps.lanl.gov> boggs@agps.lanl.gov (Marsha topgun/ne) writes:
>
>This may be a faq, but I don't read this newsgroup and I didn't see one
>so here goes:
>
>	How do you get the hard water spots off vehicles?  We had a
>	car that had them very bad and were never able to get them off.
>	We now have a new surburban and had been drying is off after
>	each washing, but didn't just once and now have water spots on
>	the glass and of course paint.  So how does one remove them?
>
>I am cross-posting this to misc.consumers.house since I also have
>hard water spots on my home's windows that also need removing and
>there might be some help there.

except for a number of bathroom cleaners that get water spots off
galss doors I don't know what to tell you about your friends windows
but, for your car - a good rubbing compound will remove the oxidization
that builds up around wet spots on your car will get them out -
the WAX Shop, Meguairs, etc sell things that can do this very nicely


-- 
________________       __        ________________   "They that can give up
\_________      \     /_ \      /      _________/  essential liberty to 
 \_________      \_____/  \____/      _________/  obtain temporary safety
  \___________________      __________________/  deserve neither liberty 
                     /______\                   nor safety."  
ALL disclaimers apply ....                           --Benjamin Franklin
From: hacker@cco.caltech.edu (Jonathan Bruce Hacker)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: HOW TO AVOID HITTING THE WALL IN GARAGE
Date: 19 Nov 1992 08:56:33 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

ehsan@attila.weitek.COM (Ehsan Kalami) writes:


>hi, I am sure a lot of people have a similar problem. Where can one buy
>blocks of cement/concrete so that we know how far to drive a car into
>garage. similar to one found in parking lots?
>thanks.

Another solution is to tie a rubber ball on a string attached
to the ceiling of you garage.  Align the ball so that it just hits
your windshield when the car is where you want it.

-- 
Jon Hacker
Caltech, Pasadena CA
hacker@tumbler-ridge.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: K.Buck@ma30.bull.com (Ken Buck)
Subject: Re: Japanese Full Size Trucks
Reply-To: K.Buck@ma30.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:13:02 GMT
Originator: buck@granite.ma30.bull.com

In article <1992Nov20.142912.38332@watson.ibm.com> born@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>Has anyone seen the commercial advertising the new full-size truck
>made by Toyota? (I believe it was Toyota.)

yes, it's toyota.

>I've read in the past that this is a VERY profitable market segment for
>the U.S. manufacturers.

sure is.
for example, the best-selling vehicle in the U.S.A. is the Ford F-150.
it outsells all those Honda Accords, etc., etc.
i don't know how the other full size trucks sell, but i seem to recall
that they're all up in the high numbers.

>It will be very interesting to see how they (Ford, GM, Chrysler) respond 
>to this new entry.

if i recall, their first response was to try to prevent them from
selling any (either through tariffs or other restrictions).
hopefully the competition will ultimately inspire them to improve
their existing vehicles, instead.
we'll see.
Newsgroups: rec.autos