From: andrick@sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de (Ulf Andrick)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns 
Reply-To: andrick@sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de (Ulf Andrick)
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern (Germany)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:56:46 GMT

In article <16852E79D.PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu>, PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu 
(David Veal) writes:
> In article <1992Aug29.061315.1128@rhrk.uni-kl.de>
> andrick@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Ulf Andrick) writes:
> 
> >
> >In article <1992Aug26.230720.11182@mtu.edu>, cescript@mtu.edu (Charles
> >Scripter) writes:
> >>
> >> Ok, let's have a look (I'll only select a few, to save space):
> >>
> >>                  H O M I C I D E
> >>                                   PER         ABSOLUTE
> >> RANK  COUNTRY                     100,000     NUMBERS
> >> ====  ==========================  =======     ========
> >>  11   United States                 9.60      18,155
> >>  18   Netherlands                   7.15         964
> >>  25   Finland                       4.88         229
> >>  27   West Germany                  4.47       2,771
> >                                                 ^^^^^
> >I know that number. It comprises about 1900 attempts, which means that
> >about 800 people were actually killed. I wonder what the quote of attempts
> >is in the US. If people have access to guns and use them when they try to
> >kill somebody, they might be more successful.
> 
>      Homicide figures generally indicate somebody died.  However, the above
> source does not provide either a reference or a year...

2778 was the the number of cases of murder and homicide investigated by the
West-German police in 1985. The newest figure available to me is that of
1989, which is 2385. Unfortunately, they do not give the number of attempts
any more, but the West German criminal statistics changed rather little 
from 1985 to 1989.

But I have to say that there is an extra category for killing by negligence.
I was not aware first, that this might be included in the American numbers.
There were 643 of such cases in 1985, probably mostly occured in road traffic.
Together with those killed by criminal acts this makes about 1,200.
This number is still clearly different from the number given in the table.
 
I just read that the FBI gave a number of 24,703, which was described in my 
local newspaper as being the number of persons killed by `murder' (should 
probably be any criminal deed) in 1991 in the US. They stated an increase of 
4 % to the previous year.

But I think you can see, what my point was: figures do not necessarily tell
everything, especiallly those quoted above. I was mainly concerned with the
German figures, because I have the corresponding statistical material easily
available.

> 
[further figures deleted]

> >>
> >> -------------------  R A P E  -----------------
> >>                                 PER         ABSOLUTE
> >> RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
> >> ====  ========================  =======     ========
> >>    2  West Germany              77.49       48,075

This can't be rape alone. Here the /100,000 figures for 1989:

   deeds against sexual self-determination:         59
      thereof:
         sexual abuse of children:                  19
         rape, sexual duresse:                      14

The other deeds of this category are not mentioned. At the moment,
I can only think of promotion of prostitution and exhibitionism 
as being important. (The 1985 figures are not much different.)
Again, I feel uncertain whether the figures in the tables are really
comparable.

Even in the rape/sexual duresse category, there are certainly many
deeds which developped from situations, in which the woman would
not have drawn a pistol (which is suggested below). 
Many women don't take much effort to defend themselves. It
is a well known problem in such cases to determine whether it was
really rape or not. In 1985, 12,2/100,000 were alleged of rape/
sexual duresse, but only 2.2/100,000 were convicted for rape.
(In dubio pro reo.)

Still, I'd say that the `rape' figures in the table are not meaningful
in respect to the subject.
 

> >>    8  Netherlands               56.00        7,554
> >>    9  England & Wales           50.20       24,698
> >>   13  Scotland                  44.69        2,330
> >>   14  Denmark                   41.06        2,068
> >>   15  Sweden                    40.52        3,313
> >>   18  Austria                   30.42        2,274
> >>   22  United States             26.30       40,168
> >>   23  France                    26.19       13,828
> >>   28  Norway                    23.43          931
> >>   34  Italy                     11.87        6,605
> >>   39  Finland                    9.44          443
> >>
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, I don't have stats for assaults, and other violent crimes.
> >> It does look like Europe has a problem with rape.
> >
> >These numbers are regrettable, especially for Germany. But I don't see
> >how rape is related to the subject of this thread, which is
> >guns. (Guns are rarely used in rapes, at least in Germany.)
> 
>      Guns can not only be used *in* a rape, but to defend against a rape,
> and that is most certainly germane to the discussion.  Unless you,
> as some do, feel that it is morally wrong to resist a rape with lethal
> force.

The use of arms in self-defence seems to be a little over-estimated.
Many people are not able to use them in the crucial situation. And if
somebody plans an assault on you and must be prepared that you shoot back,
then he will certainly take measures that you won't be able to do that.
The more effectively the victims can be expected to defend, the more 
brutal will be the assaults, at least if you think of that type of
criminal, who always has access to weapons,  

>      I believe the point of the above post is that lack of guns does
> not always correspond to lack of violent crime, as some people have
> asserted.

Not I.

> >
> >People in a state with restrictive arms control laws are not necessarily
> >less criminal than others, but the number of people killed is probably
> >lower when there are less firearms about.
> 
>       I have seen some numbers which suggest that the while the number
> of people killed declines when guns are less available to the general
> public (It is far harder to disarm criminals) that number far more
> often includes victims than before.  That is, you may be trading two dead
> assailants for one dead victim.
>      I'm not sure that's an improvement.

The assailants are always in the advantage and they will take care that
you are killed before they get killed.

I didn't think of those who were killed by the police yet. But does
this explain the enormous difference between European and US homicide
figures? If yes, then you might have reason to feel threatened by
your police.


> 
> ========================================================================
> | David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu                                  |
> |             University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education |
> ========================================================================


I set the follow-up to talk.politics.guns only. I don't know if I will
follow the further discussion there, but the thread doesn't have much
to do with soc.culture.french and I don't want to invite it to 
soc.culture.german either.

References:

Statistisches Jahrbuch der Bundesrepublik Deutschland 1987 and 1991, resp.

Sonntag aktuell, 30.8.1992


Ulf R. Andrick                                  andrick@rhrk.uni-kl.de


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns