HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: furtaw@comm.mot.com (Bob Furtaw)
Subject: Re: stalls
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:49:26 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.piloting

In article <1993Jan25.221502.14636@eco.twg.com>, reece@eco.twg.com (Reece
R. Pollack) wrote:
> 
> 
> In article <maverick.727915435@camelot>, maverick@camelot.bradley.edu (Darin Petersen) writes:
> |>Speaking of spins and stalls.....
> |>
> |>I've often heard of secondary stalls but I'm not familiar with them.
> |>I remember someone saying that one occurs if you keep the nose high after a
> |>stall and let the plane stall again.  I did this with my instructor and
> |>nothing special happened.  The nose just 'bobbed' up and down like a paper
> |>airplane would when you bend the 'elevators' up too much. (BTW, I was in a
> |>C152) 
> |>
> |>SO what are they and what's the danger.......
> 
Please allow me to add my understanding of the susbject.
A secondary stall occurs when one tries to recover from a stall to quickly.
 

As a quick review, the accepted stall recovery procedure is to lower the
nose to reduce the angle of attack and apply full power.  The goal is to
regain flying speed and STOP COMING DOWN.

Sometimes in an effort to "stop coming down", one adds back pressure
prematurely or with to much pressure and induces an accelerated stall. 
This is the secondary stall.  remember the stall speed increases with the
square root of the load.  The situation is easier to produce in a heavily
wing loaded airplane as compared to a lightly loaded one.

To demonstrate this, be fully familiar and feel comforatably with
accelerated stalls as "normally" demonstrated (steep bank, briskly pulling
back on the stick, etc).  Then try a brisk pull back immediately following
a power off stall recovery (wings level) and you will feel this "secondary
buffet".  Recover once more but will less back pressure.

Please forgive any details I left out, but I think this explains the
essence of the subject.    :-)   Regards,

Bob Furtaw - W8IL
CFI-A/G/I/MEI, CGI-A/I
All disclaimers ever written by anybody apply. :-)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: coffin@hfglobe.intel.com (Chris Coffin)
Subject: Re: pilotage: any tricks/tips?
Organization: Intel Corporation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:10:59 GMT

In article <MOERSCH.93Jan22082048@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU> moersch@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Jeff Moersch) writes:
>In article <C140nF.6DA@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
>
> While we were doing this, I spotted a Navy A-6 cruising by us
>at approximately our altitude, and maybe a mile away.  Not long after,
>I found where we were on the sectional - next to a little town called
>"Bagdad"!  I'm pretty sure we never got into the restricted area, but
>it was close...
>
>So how many other pilots on the net can say they were intercepted by
>a U.S. Navy jet while flying near the boundary of the "no-fly-zone"
>over Bagdad?!?
>
>Jeff Moersch
>PP-ASEL

I was not intercepted, but I have landed at Bagdad! My brother-in-law 
and I were returning from Laughlin to Scottsdale, He was helping with 
the navigation, when he says "Can we stop at Prescott?" I said that is 
way out of our way. He points to an airport on the sectional that has
a purple box that says Prescott. (Bagdad, (prescott RCO)) I say, oh,
that's bagdad. And we land there while he drops his "munitions".

Bagdad has a very interesting runway. It is significantly higher at the
ends of the runway than in the middle, plus, being in a valley, you kind
of have to circle around to get enough altitude to clear the surrounding
mountains to continue on your way.

Definitely one of my more interesting departures.

Chris Coffin ASEL
coffin@mstu06.intel.com (disregard the headers)
From: wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Radio procedures at controlled airports
Date: 27 Jan 1993 11:33:44 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
	<1993Jan26.064736.7130@peck.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sam.cs.tu-berlin.de
In-reply-to: geoff@peck.com's message of Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:47:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.064736.7130@peck.com> geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck) writes:

[ ... ]

> Tower -- 120.7
> 
> 01T:	San Jose Tower, Cherokee 2901T ready for takeoff at three zero right.
> TWR:	Cherokee 2901T, cleared for takeoff runway three zero right.

Are you actually supposed to say "ready for *takeoff* ?
I understand that ICAO banned the use of the word "takeoff" except
for the actual clearence to avoid any possible confusion. I think
the same happened to "cleared into position" instead of "line-up",
after the accident on the Canary Islands a couple of years ago
involving two 747's.
ICAO standard phrase is "ready for departure".

-- 
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wd@cs.tu-berlin.de
wolfgang@first.gmd.de

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Subject: Re: stalls
Reply-To: reece@eco.twg.com
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:15:02 GMT


In article <maverick.727915435@camelot>, maverick@camelot.bradley.edu (Darin Petersen) writes:
|>Speaking of spins and stalls.....
|>
|>I've often heard of secondary stalls but I'm not familiar with them.
|>I remember someone saying that one occurs if you keep the nose high after a
|>stall and let the plane stall again.  I did this with my instructor and
|>nothing special happened.  The nose just 'bobbed' up and down like a paper
|>airplane would when you bend the 'elevators' up too much. (BTW, I was in a
|>C152) 
|>
|>SO what are they and what's the danger.......

Loss of altitude. If you recover from a stall at 500 AGL and get a secondary
stall, you're gonna be mighty close to those treetops. Do it again, and you've
had it.

You should be capable of recovering from a stall without stalling it again.
If not, you're not doing it right, and should practice until you can.

--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL-IA -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)
From: barney@sol.usc.edu (Barney Lum)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Charts in-flight (was: pilotage: any tricks/tips?)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 18:21:16 -0800
Organization: USC University Computing Services, Los Angeles
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.usc.edu
Summary: What to Draw Courses With?

In article <1k1ibrINNqjr@transfer.stratus.com> spenny@sw.stratus.com 
(Steve Pennypacker) writes:

> This works during the day, but those (pink) highlighted lines will 
> completely disappear in the red cockpit light at night.  (at least 
> it's true of yellow, should be the same for pink).

As you mentioned, red/pink lines probably disappear at night under a red 
cockpit light.  I quickly noticed that of the magenta lines on charts when 
I started flying at night regularly, so I put a yellow filter on my Mag 
Light.  It might not be quite the same as red in preserving night-vision, 
but a definite improvement over clear/white.

I've done a few night X-countries with pink lines and yellow lighting... 
I just can't tell from the chart where the lighted areas are :).  
Of course if you like the red lighting, there are other suitable colors 
to draw (thick) lines with.  I use highlighters that don't soak through
the charts...something regular "markers" tend to do.

What (coler/pen-type) do y'all out there use?  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >|            
              >|      barney@usc.edu  Barney@USCVM
 -->  -->  --> |   =======    ---    ---    ---    ---    ---   ---    ---  
              >|      Permanent Student Pilot, On the Numbers   
              >|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Sponsored account, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:43:14 -0500 
From: Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: more imc
Distribution: rec

>    Since we're all talking about VFR pilots is IMC, I have a question of
>my own.  I'm planning on getting my instrument ticket this summer.  What I
>want to know is how my flight sim 4 experience will transfer over.  I know
>fs4 is not a real plane and doesn't fly exactly like a real plane and
>nothing ever fails and the air is usually smooth.  I have gotten proficient
>with all types of approaches (NDB,ILS,VOR) and  have even done some partial
>panel work.  Will the spacial ability I have improved upon with this apply
>to real flight?  

My $.02 on the subject, but sure there are many other opinions.  I've
"flown" several typse of computer simulators, and got some instruction
on an ATC 610 simulator both before and after my instrument rating.
Here's what I found, for me.

Good stuff from computer simulation - reenforcing the general need for
good scan.  When I fly sloppy on instruments, its inveriably because my
scan's lazy....computer simulators will help with this.  Chart
management, i.e. looking at charts, gleening the right info and using
it....helps here.

The negatives.....aside from all the obvious ones.....lack of real knobs
and buttons.  Knowing exactly which knob turns which way, or button does
what, in YOUR cockpit, when hand flying in IMC and turbulance, helps a
lot.  I often found myself early on fixating on tuning a frequency too
long....only to return to the scan and find everything off a good bit. 
I found this one of the more desirable features of the 610....it has
some "realish" knobs"...levers...and buttons.

Lots of other stuff to be said on the topic....mostly...obvious.

Jeff Dunkle
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: uad1221@dircon.co.uk (David Lomax)
Subject: Re: the usual meandering thread biz
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:22:35 GMT


All this talk about whether to instruct spins for the pilots 
licence! What's the problem here; forget about whether it *should* 
be taught or not. I don't know about anyone else, but if it's 
possible to get in a spin in an aeroplane then I want to know 
how to get out of it - I want to live. How could anyone conceive 
of getting into an aeroplane with a pilot who has never recovered 
(or been in) a spin and who is actually nervous of stalling 
it.

You should want to learn to spin for your own, your passengers 
and the people below you's sake. Flying an aeroplane comes with 
great responsibility as we all know. By the time a pilot gets 
his/her licence they should not be at all nervous of stalling 
and in my opinion, spinning. I just could not do it to another 
person, expect them to put their life in my hands (when they 
know nothing of my flying abilities) when I'm not sure how I'm 
going to react near a stall and just hope to goodness it doesn't 
develop into a spin.

I was taught spinning for my licence in the UK. It is not mandatory 
but I decided early on that I wanted to be in control of this 
areoplane as far as is possible. If you get an instructor who 
knows what he/shes doing (and there are lots who dont), it's 
great fun.

It's all a question of *you* being in control of the aeroplane 
rather than the aeroplane being in control of you.


David Lomax

P.S. Let's not draw parallels with driving, I am sure none of 
us would want our average standard of flying to be comparable 
to that that exists for driving.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: verhulst@raven.aosg.gsf.dec.com ()
Subject: spin training (again :-)
Organization: AOSG
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:15:17 GMT

>the C152 was in a spin and I was using the rudder and ailerons to stop the
>rotation with the yoke pulled back (instinctively and incorrectly). I remember 
>thinking we were going to die as we did at least four rotations with the

After a few solo flights under my belt I decided to do some stall practice
on my own (at 1500 agl)  on the third stall one wing went down and I tried to
pick it up with aileron - can you say spin?  Fortunately, I had enough book
knowledge and recovered with out much trouble ( I was also an advanced hang
glider pilot and understood the imprortance of airspeed).  Soon after
I insisted on getting spin training.  Since my instructor owned a Super
Decathelon and also taught scarobatics, this was no problem at all. ;-) 

Tony (spin training believer) Verhulst
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: pilotage: any tricks/tips?
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:39:26 GMT

In article <MOERSCH.93Jan22082048@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU> moersch@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Jeff Moersch) writes:
>In article <C140nF.6DA@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
>
>>...I find it
>>   easier to look outside and try to correlate what I see with what is
>>   depicted on the map.  If I look at the map first and then try to see
>>   the feature on the ground, I have much less success...
>
>This is interesting, because it's the exact opposite of what my
>instructor told me to do when I was a student.  He claimed that it
>was much easier to fool yourself into thinking you were somewhere you
>weren't if you went outside to map instead of the other way around.

I'll side with Jim. Unless I'm badly lost, whatever I see outside is on
that map *somewhere* - all I have to do is find it. If I screw up, I'll
figure that out within about 20 miles in this area. If I look at the map
and then try to find the same features on the ground, I can be only two
or three miles off course and be out of sight of the landmark I'm trying
to find.

Oh - if I can't find what I see anywhere on that map, it's time to buy
some fuel. The one time this happened to me I was ferrying an aircraft
300 miles over the Appalachians on a moonless night with only a 20 year
old COM unit. The winds shifted over 20 degrees and increased 15 knots
during the flight. Wound up in Wilmington, Delaware (only about 50 miles
off course).

It's amazing how much a traffic light on this side of a small town
resembles the beacon of an airport on the other side of it!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | Try to live your life so that you wouldn't be
George Patterson -  | afraid to sell the family parrot to the town
                    | gossip.
                    |                            Will Rogers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: paulc@world.std.com (Paul E Cantrell)
Subject: Re: the usual meandering thread biz
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 06:29:07 GMT

In article <mb_sshl@quantum.qnx.com> aboyd@quantum.qnx.com (Andrew Boyd) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.050448.20130@tigger.jvnc.net> mrl775@tigger.jvnc.net 
>writes:
>>Well, he found himself in a spin, without even knowing that what a spin was!
>
>This really isn't his fault, it's the system's.  Even though the FAA 
>incomprehensibly does think that spin training is unnecessary, IMHO it's
>criminal for an instructor to let a student loose who is unable to recover
>from "unusual attitudes".  Sure, the student may be legal to go solo, but
>is he safe?  I don't think so.

Besides the obvious safety aspects, I think there's another reason that
spins should be taught: confidence. Until I did some spin training, I was
always afraid of stalls. This meant that I was always nervous (that I
might get into a spin), and I was very reluctant to practice stalls solo.

I asked my primary instructor to show me a spin, but he seemed nervous
about it, so that was the *last* thing I wanted to do at that point. I
went for several years being afraid of a spin, and this made flying
airplanes much less enjoyable.

I finally went up with an instructor who obviously *liked* doing spins,
and I had a ball. Now I'm not nervous doing stalls alone, and I know I can
get out of a spin if I enter it inadvertently from sufficient altitude. I
also know for sure now that I won't get out of one if I stall/spin on the
turn to final :-(

Paul Cantrell
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan)
Subject: Re: more imc
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:59:14 GMT

In article <maverick.727996968@camelot> maverick@camelot.bradley.edu
 (Darin Petersen) writes:

>my own.  I'm planning on getting my instrument ticket this summer.  What I
>want to know is how my flight sim 4 experience will transfer over.  I know

How does regular FlightSim experience transfer over to PP-ASEL
training?

For IFR training, based upon my personal experience (n=1),
the work you have done will save you a few hours of the actual
training because you will know what to do next and will not have
to think about how to interpret the instruments, plates, etc.  
You will be a step ahead of the plane (key in IFR work).

On the other hand, the psychomotor skills won't transfer at 
all IMHO.  In other words, now that I'm instrument rated
I wouldn't personally bother with an instrument trainer to maintain 
proficiency  in IMC any more than I would use regular FlightSim
to maintain proficiency with VFR T&Gs in the pattern.

-- 
Richard Kaplan M.D.           Medical Software Exchange BBS
806 2nd St. SW # 104          (507) 281-1989 14,400 HST
Rochester, MN  55902          (507) 281-1689 Voice
PP-ASEL-IA     N4VRB          rkaplan@mayo.edu|netcom.netcom.com  
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: Flying Movies (was Re: Book on Pancho Barnes)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 17:43:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.205200.20284@den.mmc.com> zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin) writes:
>
>What are people's favorite flying movies, ones that really show piloting
>and airplanes properly?  Has Hollywood ever gotten it right in your
>humble opinions!?! (Okay, maybe a stupid question...) [BTW should this
>thread, if developed move into .misc?]

The High and the Mighty. Ernie Gann didn't allow a whole lot of tinkering
with that one. If you read "Fate is the Hunter", you'll also find that
everything in that movie occurred to Gann at one time or another (though
not on one flight).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | There are very few personal problems which
George Patterson -  | cannot be solved by a suitable application
                    | of high explosive.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: pilotage: any tricks/tips
Date: 20 Jan 93 22:49:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

DN> .I can never seem to match local landmarks with
  > .features on the map. If I insist on finding myself via
  > .visual references, I can usually do it in 5-10 minutes.
  > .ADF and VOR navigation work ok, but thats not good enough,
  > .or even safe (IMHO).

If you're flying around a nice flat area that's mostly sand, and can't
spot an oil refinery in the middle of it, you've got a problem.  If
you're flying around the Appalachians, and can't tell one hill from
another, you're a normal human being!

It helps if you can visualize what the map symbols look like in "real
life" and can mentally translate the map contours into a terrain shape.
I always look for things which are likely to stand out.  Sharp ridges.
Funny shaped lakes.  Roads intersecting at unusual angles.

One problem that I noted with some of my friends is that they seem to
fly too low.  Altitude helps in locating yourself on the chart.  Try
flying higher if you've been down close to the ground.  It provides a
better correlation between chart and terrain, and you've got more time
to spot things before you whip by them.

DN> .P.S. My instructor is _not_ the type to really help
  > .me with this; he's more of the high-pressure 'Well? Well? WELL?!?!'
  > .type. Not so good when you are lost.

Change instructors.  Or go up with someone else for a while that can
better help you develop your pilotage skills.

        D/
---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-3345 . Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
                                                
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: kkalan@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kenneth Kalan)
Subject: Re: pilotage: any tricks/tips?
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:35:44 GMT

Another idea which I haven't seen mentioned that helped me.

The school which I trained at had as its smallest plane 172's, which
is what I trained my private in.  My instructor encouraged me to ride
along as a passinger with other students.  Since I knew a couple of
people also working on their private, I rode in the back on their
flights.  This way I could follow along on the sectional without
the pressures of flying the aircraft.  This helped me relate the
map with the outside world.
Also if I had any questions, the instructor was right there.  As a plus,
this also provides an extra set of eyes for watching traffic.

So if you use a 4 place trainer and can ride along with other people,
I think this would help in identifing places on the map.  Also
riding with friends whom already have a private would work well also.

Ken



-----------------------------------------------------------------__-------------
Kenneth Kalan                                        _===_      /  |
PP ASEL                                        | ___/[__ ] \___/__ |
                                               |\__ _|___|_____===/
                                                      \/
kgk@nwu.edu                                            O
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Subject: Re: Radio procedures at controlled airports
Reply-To: reece@eco.twg.com
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 00:00:22 GMT


In article <skip.232.727705775@mitre.org>, skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild) writes:
|>Back to your discussion, a similar thing happened to me at Nashua awhile ago 
|>when I received permission to "enter the ATA for landing and report a two-
|>mile right base".  When I got to that point and reported, I was told, "not 
|>in sight, report established on 11."  I then realized I was using 
|>the frequency for Hanscom (my departure point) instead of Nashua, reported 
|>my mistake to Hanscom and switched to Nashua.

I'm a bit amused that neither you nor Hanscom Tower caught the descrepancy
between "Nashua Tower" and "Hanscom Tower". Just goes to show you that it's
easy to hear what you're expecting to hear and not what was said.

--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL-IA -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)
From: hurvitz@oscar.UUCP (Dennis Hurvitz)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Multi-Engine Take-off engine failure alt.'s
Date: 20 Jan 93 16:57:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan17.204119.1@vf.jsc.nasa.gov>, gerlach@vf.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
> When you train your multi-engine students, what is the lowest altitude that you
> pull an engine by reducing the throttle back to idle during a take-off
> engine-out simulation?

> $  ....  David A. Gerlach CFI-IMEI/NASA-JSC/GERLACH@VF.JSC.NASA.GOV     

how about 100-200' agl...


dennis hurvitz
mei