From: doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Query: Gung fu in New York City
Summary: -=-=-< a partial reply >-=-=-
Keywords: -=-=-< a partial clarification >-=-=-
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:44:52 GMT
Followup-To: right.... i said it... send it here...
Organization: i represent no organization or school.  i speak for myself!

In article <1992Sep10.155204.10785@panix.com> fnord@panix.com (Cliff Heller) writes:

>In <1992Sep09.234000.22033@eng.umd.edu> doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen) writes:
>
>>	i never said they were anything less.  i was not aware that wai hong had
>>retired from *teaching*.  nothing changes in my opinions.
>
>You did so.  I deleted it for brevity, but look back, you said that other
>schools have smaller, friendlier classes.  Now you say that you never said
>that.   From my understanding, Wai Hong hasn't been teaching for quite some
>time.  My friends studied at his school 8 years ago, and classes were
>taught by his senior students.  
>

	you ....mis-interpreted what i said.
	however, it is not important to the point....

>>>
>
>>	here you are not ....ehr.... precise.  i'm sure your intentions are
>>of the highest caliber, and you are not interested in the political scene or
>>make-up of the kung fu community.  most likely, you are totally outside of them
>>due to your position as a student in the school.  exactly what is your position
>>in the *organization* and/or the school?  (please be as precise as you are able
>>in the circumstances....)
>
>I am simply a first year student.  I have no real position in the
>organization or the school.  But I like what I am learning, and the way
>that I am learning it.
>

	then, by all means, stay with your school.  i am in no way attempting to
suggest that you leave your school (for *any* reason), but most especially not
if you are happy there.  i was merely suggesting to the original poster (not
you) that there are *IN *MY* OPINION*, othe and better schools that *I* would
recommend over fu jow pai.  i clearly stated that there was *NOTHING* wrong with
the school's instruction, and that the style is ligitimate and reasonably
effective.  i did not say anything disrespectful about your school or the
quality of your instruction.  do not look for offense where none was given!

>>>Again, to "stand outside the political games" is a political stance in and
>>>of itself.  I know nothing about it, but Sifu Tak Wah Eng, doesn't concern
>>>himself with such matters, or if he does he does not teach/preach it to his
>>>students. 
>>>
>
>>	again, i must.... ehr.... agree to disagree.  you are *not* correct.
>>and, again, i'm *sure* that the politics are not taught/preached in your 
>>classes.  i'm equally confident that it doesn't touch you in most of the
>>obvious ways.
>
>It what way am I not correct?  I wouldn't be surprised if Sifu Tak is

	in the respect that "to "stand outside the political games" is a
political stance in and of itself." statement.  i suppose that in an
empirical way, you might have a point, but in the context of this discussion,
you are not,
	further.... you say that "Sifu Tak Wah Eng, doesn't concern himself
with such matters, or if he does he does not teach/preach..." yet you preamble
it with "I know nothing about it,".  you sure as hell speak as if you did know
something about it....

>involved in the politics of the martial arts community.  My major point is

	and now you say that he is possibly involved in the politics....
combined with your other statements, you have simply restated what i have said:

	1. there is nothing wrong with fu jow pai, 
	2. politics (you say possibly - i say definetely) exist, but doesn't
	   touch you at your level.

>that you cannot "stand outside" such politics, and that you spoke
>disrespectfully of my school based on politics, and not based on the
>quality of instruction.

	again, i was not speaking disrepectfully about your school or the 
instructors, neither on the basis of the instruction, nor on the basis of
the politics, unless you feel that politics is disrespectful, and that it is
a derrogatory thing, and *should* be considered as such.  in which case, you
are as guilty as i, in suggesting that your teacher would possibly be involved
in politics, and then it *could* be interpreted as disrespect by you.  it was
not meant to be.  i don't happen to agree with the politics of certain schools.
that is their business.  

>
>
>>	ask your teacher if you (and your school) can attend the 1993 NACMAF, 
>>ICMAC, or the USNCMAC competitions.
>>	then ask why not.
>>	then ask why they (fu jow pai) don't attend NACMAF, ICMAC, or USNCMAC
>>tournaments of the last 3+ years.  and how about the kuosho tournaments?  (i
>>wasn't there this year, so i don't know if they did or didn't)
>>	finally ask why they don't attend.
>
>ok, Now you are getting specific, although, you have told me to ask a
>question that you clearly know the answer to.  Then you asked me to ask
>them the same question three times (why they do not attend).  
>
>I am not going to do that.  
>

	just out of curiousity.... why not?

>But I have my suspicion that the answer would be completely reasonable from
>their point of view.  There are two sides to every issue.  
>

	perhaps.  and yes, there is always more than one side to any issue...

>You can also ask your Sifu how come he didn't participate in sponsoring the
>Shao-Lin Monk's show this June.  I noticed that there were no other NYC
>Kung-Fu schools participating in it - I have a strong suspicion that they
>were not excluded.  Then tell me again how your school is above political

	again, you show your ....ehr lack of knowledge.... and experience....

	1.  our schools are not in new york.
	2.  our schools hosted two separate visits of the Shaolin monks,
	    while they were here... one in baltimore, one in gaithersburg.
	3.  it takes money and connections, as well as strong organization(s)
	    to host and sponsor such programs.  many schools (particularly some
	    of the ones i mentioned, like the Wu Mei Pai) are not that large or
	    wealthy to do something like that, independently, and if not 
	    involved with some larger organization, (such as the fu jow empire)
	    might have been 'excluded'.
	4.  Sifus John Leung (of seattle,) and Poi Chan (of orlando) were the 
	    organizers and coordinators of the events.  only they could known
	    why they asked some organizations if they wanted to sponsor the tour	    and host a show.


>infighting.   This sort of thing probably goes on a lot.  It has probably
>gone on for centuries.  Again, I say, you are the one who has brought such
>politics into the choice of a school, and made a case that your schools are
>above it all, when in fact, they are just as much involved and you happen
>to favor their position.
>

	obviously, you are...young in the arts.  yes.  i mentioned politics as
a consideration.  again, yes, i would guess that that sort of politics have 
continued to exist as long as their have been powere structures.  again, i
am not saying that your's is the only school involved in politics, nor that
it is a bad thing to be involved in politics.  i do not happen to agree with
the political stance of the fu jow empire.  that is something i have decided
over a period of 10+ years of knowledge of it's politics...(something you
cannot claim) and is a (clearly stated) *PERSONAL* *OPINION*. i did not go into
the specifics of the politics of the fu jow pai empire, nor will i do so with
you, either publically of privately (especially in light of your demonsrated
ignorance of the political climates), or any one else.  it is not my place nor
is this the forem for such a discussion.  i merely suggest that there may be
other alternatives to fu jow pai that *I* *THINK* might be preferable to the
person looking.  they may well like your school.  more power to them and you.

>
>>	perhaps....
>>	then again, perhaps you cannot see a forrest for the trees.... or are
>>not sufficiently significant in the organization to know more than the least
>>of the details..... perhaps you don't know as much about your own organization
>>as you might like to think....
>
>This is possible.  If you have specifics, why don't you send them to me
>privately.  I don't think it is proper to discuss such matters publicly,
>but I felt it necessary to respond publicly to a public post that was not only
>disrespectful to my school and my organization, but also hypocritical.
>>	then again, perhaps you do....  *smile*  perhaps you do...
>

	again, i have already stated in the above paragraph, that i will not
discuss the details openly or privately (especially with some one from that
school, who is both inexperienced - read *new* - and unknowledgable of the
things which are in discussion.) with anyone, in this forem.
	and, again, i was not disrespectful nor was i hypocritical either 
about your school, the teachers, the students nor the organization, unless it
is direspectful to suggest other alternatives or personal preferences, (all
*CAREFULLY* suggested as such.)

>
>>	always good advice.  however, you should also educate yourself about
>>the school, the teacher(s) and their lineage and standing in the martial arts
>>community.  if you are ignorant of martial arts, how do you know that what
>>you are (or will be) taught is the real thing?
>
>True.  Although there are many sides to every issue.  Everyone thinks
>theirs is the correct position.  I think it is more important to make sure
>that you are being tought in a traditional fashion, and not being stroked
>along for your money.  There are conflicts even among the various Fu-Jow
>Pai schools in the metro area, and I would not recommend that people study
>at another school.  
>
>>i am not saying anything about *your* teacher, your school, or the quality of
>>your kung fu or instruction.  merely that the organization is not one *i* 
>>recommend.  it is strictly *your* (whom ever's) choice.
>
>I realize this.  I'm sure you have some valid points, which I would like to
>hear privately.  My only point is that if there are political conflicts
>within the chinese martial arts community, then both sides are involved,
>and both sides have the "right" position.  It's part of the territory and
>no one can "stand outside" the political games, because to even bring it up
>is to be a part of it.
>

	it was not my point to discuss politics.  it was to suggest alternative
schools to the original poster.  there are also many other fine schools that i
did not mention, i'm sure.  this does not mean that they should not be 
investigated.  the person who originally posted may check out all of these
schools, and find that s/he liked yours the best.  fine.  i have absolutely
no problem with that.  i was *ONLY* suggesting alternatives.  the choice is
theirs.  not yours or mine.

>-- 
>    / \      Reverend fnord                 | "King Kong died for your sins!"
>   /   \     fnord@panix.com                | 
>  / <0> \                                   | "Don't just eat a hamburger, 
> /_______\   Church of Obfuscatology, Inc.  |  eat the HELL out of it!"


	as to the discussion between you and i, on the politics of the various
organizations, i might suggest that if you wish to know more details, do a 
little research.  and while it is good to start your research from within your
school, a better perspective can be gained if you also persue the other two
points of view; that of the opposing side, and those of the neutral position.
(the old rule of thesis+antithesis=synthisis)  somtimes it's difficult to see
the whole forrest if you are in the middle of it.....  think about it...
	another opinion, worth what you paid for it!
	and, as always, i am/at:

	     doug:  <doug@eng.umd.edu> : <doug@lpf.umd.edu>

	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

	"presidential elections are planned distractions
	 to divert attention from the actions behind the scenes....
	 like a game of chess when the house is a mess, or
	 a petty money squabble when your marriage is in trouble,
	 or a football game when there's rioting in the street!

	 it's just another movie.....  another song and dance.....
	 another poor sucker who never had a chance!
	 it's just another captain goin' down with his ship.....
	 it's just another jerk, taking pride in his work!

				       greetings from timbuck three!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts