HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arras@fluke.icase.edu (Michael Arras)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: ?.?.FUZZY name poll [repost]
Date: 23 Nov 1992 09:03:56 GMT
Organization: ICASE/NASA Langley
NNTP-Posting-Host: fluke.icase.edu

In article <By4vA9.772@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <1eoehiINN8nu@rave.larc.nasa.gov> arras@fluke.icase.edu (Michael Arras) writes:
>
>>Please mail me at:
>>
>>	arras@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de
>>
>>stating whether you like the name comp.ai.fuzzy, or sci.logic.fuzzy.
>
>What of those people who do not prefer either name?  Some good points
>were made for sci.math.fuzzy recently.

	Ok, please mail me stating the name of your choice for the
up-and-coming newsgroup related to fuzzy logic.  Here is the RFD incase
you missed it.

The unmoderated newsgroup will contain discussions of issues related to:

        o Fuzzy Set Theory
        o Fuzzy Logic
        o Fuzzy Articles/Tech. Reports
        o Fuzzy Ftp Sites
        o Fuzzy in Japan
        o Fuzzy in "my" Country
        o Available Fuzzy Software (Tools, Demos)
        o Fuzzy Hardware
        o Announcements of Fuzzy Conferences
        o Fuzzy Applications
        o Fuzzy Picture Processing
        o Fuzzy Control Systems
        o Fuzzy Stochastic/Neuro/GA's Fusion
        o Fuzzy anything...

	In 1965 Professor Lotfi A. Zadeh introduced what he called Fuzzy
Set Theory.  In the 1970's research on Fuzzy Logic grew in Japan and other
parts of the world.  The result is that we now see small Fuzzy Controllers
in many Japanesse products.  Interest in Fuzzy Logic has taken off in the
last few years, and I have seen numerous postings from people interested in
a dedicated Fuzzy newsgroup.  I think it's time, and I think it will pass
the USENET voting guidelines.  I will announce a CFV and collect votes when
the time comes.

Michael Arras                      Bavarian Research Center
arras@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de      for Knowledge-Based
Artificial Neural Network and      Systems_________________
Fuzzy Logic Research Group         FORWISS   ERLANGEN * MUNICH * PASSAU
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: amos@sol.acs.unt.edu (Amos A. Gouaux)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.dylan [create this group]
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:25:51 GMT

tuc@calico.cs.wisc.edu (Brian A. Cole) writes:
>
> meehan@src.dec.com (Jim Meehan) writes:
> ] REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
> ] ----------------------
> ] NAME:
> ] 	comp.lang.dylan
> ] STATUS:
> ] 	unmoderated
>
> I think this newsgroup needs to exist.
>

i too would like to see such a group.  the preview in dr. dobbs was
interesting.  i would like to learn more about dylan.

amos

-- 
amos@unt.edu                   Amos A. Gouaux                   (817) 565-4161
-= Academic Computing Services, University of North Texas, Denton, TX, USA. =-
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.synth dispute solved
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:59:15 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Nov20160504@fuller.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>In article <1egohbINNv0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:
>	7) There is no way to differentiate the number of votes from
>	   "participants" versus from "elitist" news.groups readers;
...
>Actually, there /is/ such a way.  When I conducted the straw poll this
>week, I asked who reads rec.music.synth.  The names of the respondents
>may be compared to the names of the voters on the rename, to give some
>idea of the ratio of readers to non-readers responding to the vote.

   All you'll end up with are responses from a self-selected sample
of people who saw your straw poll message.  You can indeed get "some
idea" from your comparison, but it won't necessarily have relevance
to anything (statistically speaking).
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Documentation Ideas (was Re: Intentional ignorance...)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:15:55 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>There is an amount of extraneous information in "How to create a new  
>Usenet newsgroup" for the user wishing to vote (not to mention an  
>innapropriate title from a voter's point of view). It's easy to skip over  
>important things when that's the case - human nature. If you want people  
>to thoroughly read it and understand it, a "User's guide to Usenet voting"  
>would seem to be a good idea. That way it's clear from the title what the  
>target audience is. It could even spell out some of the other voting  
>related issues that are likely to be unclear to a new user. Such  
>narratives aren't really appropriate in the guidelines themselves are  
>they?

The point about "extraneous information...from a voter's point of
view" is well taken.  We're trying to serve two groups with one
document; voters and proposers.  I like the idea of separating it into
two documents, one for the ordinary user (the voter) and one for the
people who need to know the specifics (proposers, vote-takers, and
other interested parties...net.cops?).

I think we should prune the Guidelines down to only the guidelines,
while adding a separate "User's Guide" document aimed specifically at
the participants in newsgroup creation (since there are far more of
them) than at the vote-takers and proposal-makers.  That would allow
the separation of the introductory-type stuff from the guidelines
document.  The "User's Guide" would describe the process from the
VOTER's standpoint; an instruction manual for participants, devoid of
boring rules.  I would suggest then rewriting the actual Guidelines
to be more utilitarian and less new-user oriented.  

"User's Guide to Usenet Voting" is a darn good title, there, Gordon.
I've been mulling this one over in my head for a few days, trying to
come up with a title that communicates the following things to an
uninformed user:

1. Usenet is changeable/elastic/growing/mutable
2. YOU can be an active part of it; in fact, you are quite welcome to be
3. Newsgroups can be added, but also split, moved, or renamed

I think your title would work very well on the second document.  If
there were two documents, the current title "How to Create a New
Usenet Newsgroup" would still work fine for the guidelines document.

-sz
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:56:48 GMT

karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>Existance of motivation does not infer its necessity.
>[ Dave, please check on the meanings of subtle terms
>like "infer" before you use them.  It'll make your postings
>look much more polished and professional.  Thanks.]

What part of that didn't you understand?

>If it's elitist to expect that people be sufficiently
>motivated to learn what USENET is before they try
>to change it, I'm an elitist.  

Again (for the n'th time):

When USENET reaches out and changes THEM, it is difficult
to sit with the concept that there are a group of people
out there who expected them to ferret out and study pages
of rules, guidelines, and explanations that they had no idea
they should have known in the first place. 

You need a motive to be motivated. Most people aren't aware
that a clear and present motive exists to be motivated to read
(and memorize) this documentation. What seems to work by
consensus _now_ is to have people's favorite newsgroups pulled
out from under them and then to explain to them that they've
beem remiss in the scope of their search for data. 

This tends to piss people off. It also tends to alienate them
from the entire thing. 

I am proposing that this behavior stop, and that we make more
of an effort to consider the unwillingly ignorant. I make no
such effort for those who know that the process exists but do 
not want to know. 

>Nobody but you, Dave, cares about excusing ignorance.

I care about educating ignorance. 

>other participants.  When I see an unnecessarily
>rude message of that sort on a group I care about, I
>urge its author to be more tolerant.

You are a noble human being. Were there more like you, I suspect
that there would not have been such a flamewar as we have seen.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

          No snowflake falls in an inappropriate place.
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Date: 15 Nov 1992 23:46:40 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Nov16.041319.16490@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

[deletion]

>Are you going to blame a 5 year old kid for crossing the street and
>getting hit when the crossing was done on a red light?

[deletion]

Yes, partly.  His parents should have told him to look both ways
before crossing the street.  Even five year old kids understand that
(perhaps better than adults, hmm?).

It should be the same on the UseNet.  A parental figure (yes, before you
ask, I *am* in favor of paternalism) should show all the little
kiddies how to play on the 'Net without getting hurt, or pissing off
the big boys who might use flamethrowers on them.

Look...let me make an analogy...assume I wanted to use Sterling Memorial
Library (Yale's main library).  Now, at the beginning of the year
there are tours that show you the main parts and tell you where to
get things.  There is a brochure.  There are signs posted.  So would I
be within my rights to barge in and just yell, "Hey where can I find
some books around here?".  No.  The knowledge of how to use the
library was there, and was made available to me.  If I didn't take
advantage of it, that is my problem.

Should be the same on the UseNet.

But we can make analogies until Hell freezes over.  The problem is
that users are not willing to go through the learning process.  They
want instant gratification.  So, what can we do?

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Call for "Straw" Votes: Rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:39:24 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <Bxnru1.MLE@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, by cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca:
> It was stated very clearly that the purpose of the Straw vote is to 
> confirm that their are people interested in this group.  This is being
> done as several people have claimed that no one supports the group.  This
> is despite my announcement that I have received supporting netmail.

Well, then start a mailing list.  There is no rule that forbids
anybody from voicing support for your proposal in news.groups (hardly
surprising).

> How many people are against the group is not relevent to the Straw poll.
> If more than 100 people respond to the Straw, there will be a CFV, even
> if 10,000 people responded "no" to the Straw.  THE STRAW IS NOT A FORMAL
> CFV.

But you are in direct violations of the guidelines which require
agreement about name and charter before the CFV.

In other words, another example of "I won't consider anyone who
doesn't agree with me."
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:43:51 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <1992Nov17.075534.5265@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kholec@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kim Holec) writes:
>As a reader of several groups and mailing lists, my time is
>limited.  Therefore, switching from a group of limited interest
>(rec.arts.sf.written) to a group of great interest (rec.arts.
>fantasy) would be helpful.  Not to mention the fact that I, 
>like most readers of fantasy that I know, prefer fantasy to
>sf.  While it may be true that sf stands for speculative
>fiction  to some  people, to many others it still indicates
>*science* fiction.  At any rate, a name change for the 
>proposed group may be in order; I suggest Rec.arts.fantasy.
>written.  
>It does sound more  academic! 

A poorly-thought-out proposal by any name...

The point is that the distinction between Science Fiction and Fantasy
cannot be easily defined, and therefore, given the voiciferous and
anal-retentive nature of some readers, will generate considerable
flamage.  Furthermore, it will be *repetative* flamage as new people
come enter the net, read the group and demmand that XYZ book not be
discussed here since it's obvious even an imbecille that it doesn't
fall under (their concept) of Fantasy vs. Science Fiction.

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:01:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.014227.9059@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>I still don't think they had a full and fair chance to participate. Not
>when 14 users say "I didn't know about it".

At some point, you have to say, "That's their own fault."  That time
has come, Dave.  Pure and simple.

>The goal here is ZERO.

Go for it, Dave.  The rest of us figured out, long ago, that there
will always be a Johnny-come-lately who insists on penalizing the
readership of the net for their own inability to pay attention.
Whatever technique you can find to ensure that they sit up and pay
attention will be eagerly received by third-grade schoolmarms
everywhere.

The rest of us will go on with life.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Informing users how to vote
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:27:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1eht0oINNfv4
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov14.180845.1083@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>Your response didn't address the comment, IMO. I maintain that the method  
>of dissemenating the inforamtion should be enforcable. You and I differ on  
>that point and I will continue to argue it.

This is USENET. Nothing is enforceable. You are simply wrong when you
expect things to be enforceable or for there to be guarantees. You can
continue to argue about it, but that won't change anything. An
experienced net.reader posted recently that he READ the guidelines and
still made an incorrect assumption about what they contained. Even
writing it down is no guarantee that it will be understood.

>A little backwards. The  
>assertion that it should be read because "acronyms should get your  
>attention" doesn't hold a lot of weight in a world flooded with acronyms.

Where has this assertion been made? The correct assertion is "UNKNOWN
acronyms should either pique enough interest to cause a few lines of the
article to be read to find out what it means, or those who haven't that
tiny shred of interest should not complain when they skip things that
they don't understand."

>As I understand it, the bulk of the documentation that must be read to  
>understand how to vote is contained in the guidelines - i.e. "How to  
>create a new Usenet news group". 

You are simply incorrect. The information on how to vote is included in
EVERY CFV, and that inclusion is mandated in the guidelines. The only
thing you need to read to know how to vote is the CFV itself. 

>Not something that would imply to the new  
>user that what they need to VOTE is in there. And it's not all there.

It isn't all there because it ISN'T MEANT TO BE THERE.  The guidelines
do not specify how votes are cast because these instructions change for
almost every vote. I can recall no vote in recent history where the
instructions for how to vote were identical.

>No - it's elitist to think that incomplete documentation and a process  
>that relies upon it being read PLUS some additional net experience is the  
>best way to implement a vote that reflects the will of the net. 

All it takes to participate in a vote is reading the CFV. That's it. You
don't have to read the guidelines. You don't have to be a reader for a
year. You don't have to know how to blow your nose, as long as you can
read, and then all you have to read is the CFV. You don't have to read
news.groups. You don't have to read news.announce.newusers. Read the
CFV. 

Or is it unfair that someone needs to know how to read in the first
place?
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.usenet.culture
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:41:27 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Nov16.042236.26179@wolves.uucp>, news@wolves.uucp (The Wolfe of the Den) writes:
> What is needed is some way to encourage the admins of the net to provide
> a set of introductory documents to new users (all new users) and to have
> some restriction on posting until the user shows some understanding of
> the net.culture (or at least some basic nettiquette. :-)

I already do that here and at one other site I administer. The REAL
problem with this concept is that you have Admins who do it now or are
willing to do it because they care and want things to run properly. You
also have underpaid and overworked Admins who can't be bothered with the
work involved, no matter how simple it is. As bad as they are and as low
as your opinion may be of them they DO exist. 

Bottom line, you need some way to coerce the latter Admins to do what
the former are already doing and there IS no way.  The ideal way is to
make it a part of ALL news reading software.  The chances of this
happening are slim and none.  Hell, every time there is discussion about
adding or modifing a line in the HEADER there is mega discussion but no
change. 

-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.announce,rec.games.frp.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:28:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.072700.324@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> What about stand-alone users who don't have a system manager to fall back  
> on.

How could such an entity possibly exist? They either set up a feed for
themselves, which implies they have more of a clue than you're making out,
or they're using someone else's system, and that's their system manager.

> Again I have to say that if the process  
> relies on a third party, there is a hole.

Usenet is nothing *but* a bunch of third parties.

Party on, dudes.
-- 
Peter da Silva / 77487-5012 USA / +1 713 274 5180
true(<<VV$@\\$'&O 9$O%'$LT$&$"V6"$&$<4$?'&$ #I&&?$=$<<@)24 24 scale 3 21 moveto
{dup 36 eq{pop not}{dup 7 and 4 sub exch 56 and 8 div 4 sub 2 index{rlineto}{
rmoveto}ifelse}ifelse}forall stroke pop showpage % Har du kramat din varg idag?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mek@guinan.psu.edu (Mark E. Kotanchek)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.soft-sys.matlab
Organization: Penn State Center for Academic Computing
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 14:55:48 GMT

In article <maurer.722226031@magellan.stanford.edu>  
maurer@nova.stanford.edu (Michael Maurer) writes:
> In <*4i1Hn30-a@atlantis.psu.edu> mek@guinan.psu.edu (Mark E. Kotanchek)  
writes:
> >Therefore, I advocate that the new group be located as 
> 
> >                      sci.math.matlab
> 
> >rather than comp.soft-sys.matlab.
> 
> Although I agree that the comp.soft-sys.* hierarchy is not as well known
> as sci.math.* (probably due to its youth), I don't think that should be
> a reason to place the Matlab group where it doesn't belong.  The
> sci.math groups
> 	sci.math.num-analysis
> 	sci.math.research
> 	sci.math.stat
> 	sci.math.symbolic
> are generally broader in scope than discussion of a single software
> package (although sci.math.symbolic is often swamped with Mathematica
> vs. Maple questions and flames).
> 
> In contrast, the comp.soft-sys groups
> 	comp.soft-sys.andrew
> 	comp.soft-sys.khoros
> 	comp.soft-sys.nextstep
> each specifically deal with a software system that is too large in scope
> to fit into any of the existing newsgroup hierarchies, just like Matlab.
> 
> I'm not particularly thrilled with the comp.soft-sys.matlab placement
> either, but I think it's the best place in the existing newsgroups.
> Perhaps in the ideal world we would have a sci.comp.* hierarchy, dealing
> with application of computers to science...

Hmm...., good points; but, like you, I'm still not thrilled with  
comp.soft-sys. Maybe since the real need is for a numeric math program  
working group, we should have a name like

            sci.math.numeric_Programs

Such a name might also appeal to our brethern who use equivalent software  
like MATRIXx from whom we could benefit and do comparison shopping. 

Now that I know that a "matlab" newsgroup will exist, I'll be able to find  
it pretty easily; however, I also benefit by the group having the broadest  
market penetration so that the maximum number of people are out there to  
answer my queries and solve my problems ;)

For the $0.02 it's worth,

Mark. 
--
Mark Kotanchek
Guidance & Control Dept - 363 ASB
Applied Research Lab/Penn State
P.O. Box 30
State College, PA 16804