From: mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Subject: Re: Save the Planet and the Economy at the Same time!
Reply-To: mjvande@PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:11:01 GMT

-Me:  Rather than react vehemently (my first thought was BULLSH*T!!!), I will
-just point out to you that wealth goes both ways.  I am an active contributor
-to three separate environmental groups.  I recycle everything possible.  I
-won't make broad sweeping statements like yours, except to say I would guess,
-due to the "generally" higher level of education per capita in suburban areas,
-that suburbanites tend to have a better environmental awareness than city
-dwellers.

I am not talking about "awareness", but actions. I agree that a lot of
HYPOCRITICAL pseudoenvironmentalists may live in the suburbs. Or maybe
"ignorant", if you prefer. Suburban lifestyles are extremely damaging, in
spite of recycling & conserving toothpaste.

-	As I've said before, the "suburban sprawl" phenomenon described in
-"Edge City" (an insightful book) is the product of a LOT of factors.
-Nobody thought about environmental degradation when they founded Evanston,
-IL (an early suburb of Chicago).
 
But why add to the problem?

-: -Me:	This really is a good idea.  Take away more cash from the middle
-: -class so they are closer to the level of those living in the inner
-: -cities.
-:  
-Vandeman: No, just to fix the environment.
-
-Me:  Your original statement (the letter) talked about social equity.
 
Nonsense. The environment was even in the title (& still is).

-Me:  On bikes??  (I know you can wear rainsuits.  It's also been my
-experience that bikes become more hazardous on roads, especially those
-shared with cars.)
 
I avoid streets containing cars.

-Me: -	2)  Snowfall frequency?
-: 
-V: Never, but there are clothes for that.
-
-Me:  Ever try riding your bike on ice, or into the teeth of a 20-mph
-headwind at -5 degrees C?  Try it in Minneapolis.
 
Then use an electric car, if you insist, although transit would be 
warmer.

-Me:  A lot of people have to have a certain attire/dress for work.  An article
-on alternative forms of commuting in D.C. pointed out that just having a
-shower at the workplace would help.  Plus, have you ever seen how much
-paper a legal secretary takes home?  Try carrying that briefcase eight blocks.
 
In a backpack. How much can you need in 1 night?

-Me:  This helps (so do I, to an extent).  A huge percentage of workers don't
-have it, which restricts their options.  (Check the amount of time you
-devote to transit below).
 
These are all choices. I chose my job in preference to higher paying jobs
that destroy the environment or are military-related.

-Me:  Having children is a lifestyle choice that heavily weights
-the location of a home.  See previous posts for more insight.
 
And heavily damages the environment, in most cases, especially in the US.

-Me:  Didn't answer the whole question, but that's O.K.  I'm healthy
-and I rarely see a doctor, so it doesn't affect me much.  For parents
-with children, it's a MASSIVE consideration, one in which lack of
-proximity can devour huge chunks of time.  Kids get sick a lot.
 
It's hypocritical to say you need a car for children, when cars are so
dangerous (in numerous ways) for children!

-Me:  That's a big difference.  And the time vs. $$ vs. environment question
-is still one of the main reasons so many people drive cars.  I'd be willing
-to double my percentage, but not much more than that.  (If I could read
-while doubling, that'd be better.  Can't read on a bike.)
 
Yes, let me know when you work that one out. I would live to read while
biking.
 
-P.S.  E-mail a reply, if you wish to.  My system will eat anything posted on
-Dec. 24 or 25 before I get back on Monday.  Otherwise, save this and
-reply on Monday.  Thanks!


Newsgroups: sci.environment