HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: To be or not to be.
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:02:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.224057.7307@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>I just posted several references from Modern psych, that do not agree with 
>you.
>One of them, for example, analyzes the fact that the Oedipus Complex was
>mostly based on a image of Mother as a primary supporter of the kid, and
>then this person analyzes the applicability of this concept to modern
>family types, where there is no such a image of mother.

No, you posted psychoanalytical tracts.  Of course you're going to find
current psychoanalytical articles.  But look at the field in general.
Read modern comments on personality theory.  Look at psychological
practice.  You can't escape this, AAP.  I'm describing an objective
fact here.  Psychoanalysis as an important movement in psychology is
dead, dead.  Argentina may still be in thrall to that Victorian image
of the medicine man who has nothing to offer but authority, but the
rest of the world is a little more advanced.

Psychoanalysis is a 19th century dogmatic therapy based on myth.  It
has no scientific basic (and calling something scientific doesn't make
it so.  Do you KNOW what it means to call something scientific?
I don't think you do.)

Psychoanalysis is guilty of many atrocities.  Bettelheim's theory
of autism, for example, indicted the parents of such an unfortunate
child as being "cold and isolated", only exacerbating their tragedy.
But autism is a biological disease: the parents aren't culpable.

Ditto this long-discredited nonsense about "close-binding mothers"
and "distant fathers" in the genesis of a gay man (funny how women
are ignored here.)  If you look at the number of people who had
"close-binding mothers" and "distant fathers", you'd describe most
children of western civilization.  At least, you'd find people able
to convince themselves that that was the case, if you rammed that
down their throats.  But it only got said to parents of gay people.
So, now we have parents asking "What did we do wrong?"  "Nothing,
Mom and Pop," we assure them, too late.

Look at studies of children of gay parents.  They don't appear to
be more or less maladjusted than children of straight parents.
Their sexual orientation doesn't seem to be influenced by their
parents, for that matter, either.  (Gad, for all the "influence"
you here phobes talk about gay parents, you wonder how any gay people
were made.)


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: References
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:36:44 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.040953.20952@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ai210@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Josh Steier) writes:
>
>Excuse my bluntness, but Freud didn't know squat about homosexuality.
>
>If any of the Freudian school of analyists knew about the origin of
>homosexuality, they should at least be able to predict which people
>will indeed turn out to be gay, and to switch this orientation
>if desired. In fact, it is impossible to predict sexual orientation
>from any information, and not possible to change purely same gender
>oriented people into heterosexuals.

psychoanalysis finds areason to why it happened for individuals, and then
tries to find a general norm. It is not a part of a psychoanalitical process
to predict it.



>
>The freudian theory of the origin of sexual orientation flunks the
>basic test of any scientific theory. The theory as expressed and
>tested just does not agree with the facts.

No, it is you that flunks the basic test of scientific theory.
>
>You must do better.

Yeah, just like you.
>
>be well
You too.

>josh

AAP
From: 70750.2052@Compuserve.Com ("Ronnie Jr.")
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Jeff Dauber's Flawed Arguments
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:52:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: Compuser.9204061351.AA03354

The local militant "FWA", dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:

>You are stretching here.  Let's look at the following example of a
>couple.
>
>[four descriptions of couple sans sexual orientations deleted]
>
>Now Daniel, can you tell me which of these couples is "normal"
>and which is not?  Give it a try, if you guess correctly, I will
>be impressed.
>
This is absolutely ridiculous.  If any of the four couples above were
gay, THAT is what makes them abnormal.  Not any of the stuff you posted.

>The point of this is fairly simple.  You cannot tell a homosexual
>couple from a heterosexual couple if, in my descriptions, I do not
>tell you the gender of the partners involved.  Can you tell, by my
>descriptions, which couples should have children, and which should
>not?
>
OK, Jeff.  Here is a quiz to show you the BLATANT fallacy in your argument:

Here are three people, tell me which should or should not be allowed
to adopt a child:

1)  32 yr. old female, Lawyer.
2)  35 yr. old male, Engineer.
3)  27 yr. old male, Doctor.

You can't tell me, can you? 
>I bet you cannot.

>However, as soon as I tell you the 
>sexuality of these couples, you seem to have an opinion, with no
>extra information.
>
However, as soon as I tell you that the woman listed as #1 has been
convicted twice on child molestation charges, you would develop an
opinion, with no extra information.

>This is bigotry, plain and simple.
>
Is it?  Or do you say that she is not suitable to adopt because it is
not a HEALTHY environment for the child?  Same goes for my argument
against homos adopting children.

Read that quiz again, Jeff.  It's an EXACT analog to yours.  See the
flaws in your reasoning?

>FWA
>
Well, Jeff, do you take your "hubby" to the Silicon Graphics Christmas
Party or not? 


Ronnie Jr.
"Doing my best to de-bunk all this pro-homosexual propaganda."
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:1922 alt.sex:13948
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Human sexuality
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:47:35 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Apr8.091148.2393@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> amitchell@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
>But I like both mushrooms AND men!!  My favorite topping, however, is green
>peppers.....

Pervert. Sick vile animal. Green peppers can't have natural children.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                                            Love under will
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Adream
Date: 17 Apr 1992 14:33:35 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr17.121308.19112@news.larc.nasa.gov> 
carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
| In article <kushi2INNb02@mizar.usc.edu>, 
| adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
| |> In article <1992Apr17.025019.4547@wam.umd.edu> 
| |> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

[AAP's "man-like and woman-like model" deleted]

| |> Why do I think it's stupid that someone imagines that in gay
| |> relationships one partner inevitably plays the "man" and the 
| |> other plays the "woman"?  Because it *is* stupid to believe that.
|
| Even in het couples, to belive that one is always dominant and the 
| other dominated is stupid, believe me.  It frequently doesn't work
| that way.  (And I suppose he believes that it's the man who's dominant
| and the woman who's dominated... even worse!)

I agree with you absolutely.  (And I did put "man" and "woman" between
quotation marks.)  AAP is stuck in a time-warp (or maybe it's a function
of his congenital affliction), and thinks that we're in the 1950s.
Susie Homemaker and Charley Breadwinner with the two kids, two cars
in the garage, drinks at the Country Club with the Swensons on 
Saturday night, etc. etc. etc.  It shows in his worship of Socarides
and other outdated, homophobic psychotrash nonesense, and it shows
here.

Arne
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: burton@umbc5.umbc.edu (Mr. Joel Burton; PUBLICAT (U))
Subject: soc.motss
Summary: How Do You Add a Name to a Kill File 
Keywords: Help a homophobe come out today :-)
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 11:36:08 GMT

Hi there. Have been reading some of the 'phobic drivel, and was wondering:
Exactly how do you (if it is possible) add a persons name to my kill file?
For example, if Jeffrey Q. Homophobe keeps writing meaningly messages that
give his crushed het ego some room to whimper, and I'm tired of it, how do
I fix it so I don't have to look at this?

Please post your responses; I'm sure many people would love to shut these
little 'phobic kids up.

BTW, we do all remember that MOST HOMOPHOBES ARE JUST REALLY REPRESSED
GAY/LESBIAN/BISEXUAL PEOPLE, don't we? So sad that they turn their own
sexuality inward in such a display of self-hate. Sigh... perhaps one
day we can help them become comfortable with who they are.

_____________________________________________________________________
\        /   JOEL BURTON      burton@umbc5.umbc.edu      UMBC
 \  \   /   
  \ /\ /    "There's this illusion that homosexuals have sex, and
   \  /      that heterosexuals fall in love. That's not true. 
    \/       Everybody wants to be loved." -- Boy George
-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
\        /   JOEL BURTON      burton@umbc5.umbc.edu      UMBC
 \  \   /   
  \ /\ /    "There's this illusion that homosexuals have sex, and
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: More references for poor Little JOhn
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 14:12:06 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.220827.5351@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>Here are some references from the "last decade":
>
>"Psychoanalitic Reflections on Current Issues", 
>Introduccion al Psycoanalisis, Luis Hornstein. Buenos Aires, 1983.
>"Psicoanalisis y Pediatria", by Francoise Dolto
>"Estudios sobre el Edipo", by Moustapha Safouan.
>
>So, how was that about Modern Psychology ....?

Um, Al.  Three of those four works are works of _psychoanalysis._  You
would do well to answer Steve's objection to your psychoanalytical
findings before continuing to cite them.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: dacosta@prl.philips.nl (Paulo da Costa)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: babies
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:00:34 GMT
Organization: none

In article <1992Apr6.042623.26858@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>He's right on this one; he doesn't hate homosexuals, he's just looking
>for a good argument. He wanders onto soc.culture.jewish and argues inb
>favor of halachic violations, too; anything for a controversy.

Absolutely. He was the protagonist of a mighty flame-war in s.c.latin-america
earlier this year.
--
-- Paulo da Costa           /\/\   Minha terra tem palmeiras   /\/\
-- dacosta@prl.philips.nl   \/\/   Onde canta o sabia'...      \/\/
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: If you have been folling the sendsys war, READ THIS POST!
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:55:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: fido.j7942pg
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Apr4.145705.8360@amhux2.amherst.edu> twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <q5wE1r3jb@rlf.org> knight@rlf.org (The Dark Knight) writes:

>If you're so interested in rational conversation, why do you wear a
>mask?

Because this person is obviously posting to usenet as two or more people.
I am not sure how many homophobes are actually posting to a.p.h.  It seems
that there are fewer of them than we think...


FWA
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Adream
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:02:30 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.071413.3019@rat.csc.calpoly.edu> jkusters@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (The Chrome Jester) writes:
>aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) divulges:
>->
>
>
>him he's wrong.  You come onto newsgroups full of homosexuals and tell
>us that our own experiences mean nothing (or very, very little), and
>tell us that Freud knew all about us and our real problems.  And then
>you get defensive when we tell you that our own experience says
>different.  You said in another article that knowledge does not come
>from experience.  If not, then tell me where knowledge comes from?
>

Again and again. I did not said that Freud knew all about Gays. I only talked
about the Oedipus Complex. Then, some people started to do generalizations and
they put words in my mouth. 
I DID NEVER SAY THAT FREUD'S VIEWS ON HOMOSEXUALITY WERE RIGHT.
I JUST TALKED ABOUT THE OEDIPUS COMPLEX.
About the second part, I am an heterosexual human being. Do I know all
there is to know about human beings and heterosexuality? No.
Do I know more than others who are not heterosexuals about 
heterosexuality? No.
WHat I do know is how it feels to be one. It does not mean that I do know
how and why it works that way.


>
>I'm sorry, but every time I read this, I have an image of children
>being torn limb from limb.  I think the word you want is SHARING.

Yes, that's the word.

>
>
>I don't think you REALLY listen to what Gay people say.  I think you
>read it through your own personal filters that say that gay people are
>somehow inferior.  So far, though, all you have given in support of
>this apparent belief is book learning.  You cite references from
>psychoanalysis books, but do you have any ACTUAL experience to draw
>from?  I think not.

I believe that every single person in the world reads and understand through
his/her personal filters. 
Now, I had some first hand experiences to draw from. However, I must say,
they are not from USA Gays, and for most of us, down there, in the 
underdevelopment, sexuality is not something as traumatic as it seems to be
here.


>
>And what I don't understand is how you can present us with an analogy
>with Galileo and what are obviously charicatures of pro-gay posters,
>and not think that you are comparing yourself to Galileo.

It was just a parody about how "local" people in this group treats others
people ideas.

>
>Oh, and by the way, thanks for the new nickname "Little JOhn".
>Reminds me of running around the woods in some really smashing
>costumes, with a band of merry men.  Sounds like fun to me :-)
>
>(Little) JOhn.

My pleasure

>-- 
>/-John A Kusters, jr.----------------------------------------------------______
>| jkusters@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu & phule@bbs.fubarsys.com              \    /
>Silence keeps us all in darkness, we can't change things overnight!       \  /
>But we can shed a little light, Be Political not Polite! -Romanovksy & Phillips

AAP
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:2244 alt.sex:14803
From: amitchell@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Human sexuality
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:35:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: mac.1992Apr15.093529.2469
Organization: Macalester College

In article <1992Apr14.010314.7688@cs.uow.edu.au>, g8801935@cs.uow.edu.au (The Jester) writes:
> amitchell@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
> 
> 
>>Please forward any responses you want to be SURE I see to me, as well as
>>posting them, since the Director of Computing Services is threatening to remove
>>the entire alt.* heirarchy.
> If you can suggest a news group not in the alt.* heirachy who will have us
> we can cross-post the "Human Sexuality" thread there.
> 
> suggestions:
> 			sci.psychology
> 			soc.motts
> 			no.test
> 			aus.general
> 			talk.bizarre
> 
> OR
>  we could create our own group. sexuality.human.pizza
> -- 

Thanks for being so wonderful and forwarding stuff to me so I could keep up
with things, and for trying to accomodate me! I really appreciate it.  Here's
an update on the situation: the Computing Advisory Council met last night and
decided that all the groups should be kept on the net here until they could set
up a committee to try and deal with the problem.  That means the alt.* groups
will probably be available to me until the end of the school year.  (HOORAY!) 
Allison
amitchell@macalstr.edu
amitchel@math.macalstr.edu

Macalester College does not necessarily agree with any of my opinions.

"Taste me, taste me, I'm organic!" -The Bobs 
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:1823 alt.sex:13711
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
Date: 7 Apr 1992 19:15:54 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <881277m.96@ace.acadiau.ca> 
881277m@ace.acadiau.ca (WALLACE MCLEAN) writes:
+ In article <ktv7pmINN6el@mizar.usc.edu> 
+ adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
+
+ >In article <1992Apr5.195906.10728@husc3.harvard.edu> 
+
+ >| >Keep in mind that, like sexual preference, which race or ethnicity you
+ >| >prefer =is= a matter of choice.  There is no "likes black women" gene,
+ >| >or "likes political conservatives" gene.
+
+ >Oh, I agree absolutely.  Sexual preference is learned.
+
+ Yeah, you learn it from your parents. (heavy sarcasm)

I really don't understand why everyone seems to find this so difficult.
To prefer one thing to another implies that choice is involved, that
tastes are involved.  A preference is not inborn.  It is learned.  I have
*learned* to prefer spicy food to bland food.  I have educated my musical
tastes to *choose* to listen to Billie Holiday rather than Madonna.
My sexual preferences are, to a large extent, a matter of informed
choice, educated taste.  My *orientation* is unchanged from childhood.
I have never chosen to be attracted sexually to men.  I *have* developed
specific prefences for the kind of men who turn me on, and for the
activities I most enjoy, but the actual attraction is beyond my control.

Arne

Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: entropy@goofy.WPI.EDU (Lawrence C Foard)
Subject: Re: tststs
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 05:47:47 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.225407.3311@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.173814.21046@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>>dwmdwdjqwpmp
>
>This is the most coherent anti-gay post I've seen yet.

If they keep it up long enough we might get something intellegent, you
know the billions of monkeys pounding on keyboards theory. Or maybe you
should make an artificial life program that posts usenet articles, its
survival depends on minimizing the numbers of flames...
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: She was a he
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 03:38:04 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.204329.13789@wam.umd.edu> aap@next01wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>Well, I got confussed and thought that Elf was a female homosexual.
>It seems that Elf is an heterosexual male, so to speak.

Wrong again.  I bet you could guess for YEARS, Pinkie, and still not
figure out just what Elf is.  (I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to.)

>So, do not expect from me to understand all the bright ideas presented  
>here by all tou, Great People of the advanced world.

I will expect you to understand if you listen.  I do not expect you to
listen, as you have not shown any sign of doing so for months.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Reporting people
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 14:09:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.195837.28592@wam.umd.edu> aap@next13epsl.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>Besides the point of what anyone posts in this newsgroup, it cannot be  
>denied that there is a high tendency among people here to:
>
>1) Send complains to sys-adm if GLB do not like what it is being said.  
>This makes some people to use false names.

This can be denied.

>2) Insult people calling them: Homophobes, fascists, nazis, bigots, etc,  
>if GLB do not like what it is being said.

This can be denied.

>3) Lie about people, saying that he/she did this or that in another place,  
>if GLB do not like what it is being said.

This can be denied.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
From: ai210@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Josh Steier)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:58:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr8.035813.19979
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


A more pertinent example was Dr Turing, the inventor of the Von 
Neumann architecture computer, so to speak the godfather of this
silicon jungle. 

Despite the fact that his war service was second in importance
only to Winston Churchill's, he was convicted of sodomy, and forced
to take hormone injections. He was unable to change orientation, 
and he committed suicide.

be well
josh
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:1940 alt.flame:6455 news.admin:3514 soc.motss:19847 soc.bi:4341
From: addinall@stallion.oz.au (Mark Addinall)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.flame,news.admin,soc.motss,soc.bi
Subject: Re: Tracking Anything on the net.
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:09:09 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.homosexuality


In <1992Apr7.194033.22452@cattnts> craig@cattnts (Craig Campbell) writes:

>With resect to tracking fake postings on the net,
>with co-operation from various sysadmins, you should (in theory) be
>able to back track an article to the source machine by the time stamps
>and communications logs for that article's file. Whoever's system has the
>oldest version of the file in question, should be the original.

>Is this too simple? Stupid?
>-- 
>Craig Campbell		|	These opinions are entirely the result of a 
>Systems Engineer	|	small butterfly crashing into the far side
>NCR Canada,		|	of the planet.  Chaos Rules.
>an AT&T Company	|	I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.

Not always as simple as it seems ;-)
How many new friends do you get per year with such a winning manner ?-)

Later...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Addinall             |programmer /prougraema/, n. 1.one who prepares data
Software manager          |  etc., for a computer. 2.a person who spends his
Stallion Technologies     |  his time trying to explain to a computer the
Brisbane, QLD, Australia. |  imaginative fantasies of the Marketing department.
TEL 61 7 870 4999         |  this involves translating from one unintelligible
FAX 61 7 371 8881         |  series of hieroglyphics to another. see /lunacy/
...!uunet!mark@staltec    |----------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------