HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Palestinians criticize Demo platfor
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:48:36 GMT

Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair@igc.org# writes:
#
#From: Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair>
#Subject: Palestinians criticize Demo platform
#
#Achtenberg was one of Bill Clinton's eight delegates to the
#committee that drafted the platform, which fails to call for an
#independent Palestinian state.  "the end of the Cold War doesn't
#alter Americans' deep interest and our longstanding special
#relationship with Israel," the platform paper reads.  "direct
#negotiations between Israel and her Arab neighbors and
#Palestinians with no imposed solutions are the only way to achieve
#enduring security for Israel and full peace for all parties in the
#region."

And what is so bad about that?

#The platform is also unprecedented in calling for Jerusalem to be
#the capital of Israel rather than Tel Aviv.  Palestinians find
#that position unacceptable because they live in half of the city
#which rests in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

What is this crap? What's the matter with Jerusalem remaining the
capital? From when does a country have a right to decide, or influence,
what will be the capital of another country?

-Danny Keren.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:04:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.005847.16266@colorado.edu>,
perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

|>In article <1992Jul29.203140.10669@dscomsf.desy.de>
|>hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:

|>>Come off it, Muppet man may have a problem but Sternlight is in the
|>>habit of inflating the importance of his killfile. He once emailed me
|>>telling me that he was considering putting me in it because I said that
|>>anyone starting a thread with a capitalized title, the word "FACTS" and
|>>the word "BASHER" in the title was wanting a flame war, not a debate,
|>>and that the thread would consist of ad-hominem bashing and be entirely
|>>devoid of facts. Well was I right or was I right?
|>
|>In my opinion, partly right.  I would agree with you that anyone
|>starting a thread with a capitalized title wants only a flame war, not a
|>debate; we need only look at those who have used that tactic frequently
|>on this and other groups - Elghani, arf, etc.  However, words like
|>"facts" and "basher", capitalized or not, have uses both inflammatory
|>and non, depending on context, so I would disagree with you there.  A
|>similar comment applies to your corollary.

Perhaps I should have emphasised the necessity of the conjunction. A
thing may walk like a duck, but not be a duck (eg Robert Maxwell), A
think may sound like a duck and not be a duck (hunters whistle). A thing
may even look like a duck and not be a duck (Bath time toy), but if it
walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's a
duck.

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ISRAEL JOINS THE CIVILIZED WORLD
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:39:34 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Jul23.213516.15150@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>
>Your unwillingness to recognize the difference between Shamir/Bush/Major
>and between Arafat/Habash indicates severe stupidity or severe prejudice.
>Probably both.

It is almost remarkable to see the obnoxious and demeaning retorts that
old Jake continually posts.  Sigh.  I guess there is absolutely no hope
for him to possibly be a respectable person.  Semi-intelligent but
definitely an putz.

Reminds me of the old saying:

	People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sticks and Stones
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:21:03 -0400 
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Jaber writes:
        In some countries police do not carry GUNS at all.


I say:
Some other people carry them to the UN...
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:00:42 GMT
	<91523@bu.edu> <1992Jul21.211550.12552@rs.com>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: horen@rs.com's message of 22 Jul 92 04:15:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.211550.12552@rs.com> horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>
> In article <91523@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
> >In article <1992Jul21.193824.11592@rs.com> horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
> >=Of course the Passport Agency knows. In order to obtain a US
> >=passport they first had to be US citizens (which they obtained a few
> >=years after birth in Tel-Aviv) -- proving US citizenship required
> >=submitting their Birth Certificates and authorized translations of
> >=them from Hebrew into English. If I had simply filled-in "Israel",
> >=the forms would have been rejected.
> >=
> >=My daughters' original US passports were issued in Tel-Aviv (listing
> >=Jerusalem, Israel as POB), and their replacement ones were issued at
> >=the Passport Agency in San Francisco.
> >=
> >=America just ain't what it used ta be.
> >
> >This is interesting. I hope both of you gentelmen would not mind
> >specifying the chronology. I wonder if this is a result of simple
> >beurocratical sloppiness or reflects an actual policy change.
>
> Glad to, Gene.
>
> Daughters born 5/82 and 11/84 at Bikur Cholim hospital in Jerusalem.
> Daughters obtained US citizenship and initial US passports 6/85, in Tel-Aviv.
> Daughters obtained replacement US passports 5/90, in San Francisco.

My daughter got her passport in 1990, and was not permitted by the LA
Passport Agency to have "Israel" listed as place of birth.

Well, I figured the only way to finally resolve this was to contact
those who *really* know.  So I called the State Department's Passport
Agency Coordinator's office in Washington, DC (202-647-6634).  My
questions were relayed to "the duty officer" (Barbara something-or-
other), who responded saying that someone born in Jerusalem could either
have Israel listed or not -- it was their choice.  She says a person
will not be forced to have it one way or another.  My questions were
being relayed back and forth through the person who answered the phone,
and I didn't have a chance to ask if this had always been the policy
(i.e., if my daughter was advised erroneously in 1990) or if this
represented some change from the past.

In any case, it is clear that Jerusalem is treated as not necessarily
part of Israel.  Although I didn't ask, I doubt someone born in
Amsterdam, say, could have their place of birth listed simply as
"Amsterdam" and not "Amsterdam, The Netherlands".
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:15:41 GMT

In article <21981@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

# In article <0eOrGre00WB28UcXJa@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:

# > Hallam writes:
# > I think that it is more enlightening to consider that no member of the
# > security council recognises the Israeli annexation of Eastern Jerusalem

# > I say:
# > According to what I know, the US does recognize Eastern Jerusalem as
# > part of Israel.  It is Jerusalem's status as capital of Israel that
# > the US has problems with.  I think someone recently posted something
# > similar to what I am saying.
 
# I'm afraid you know wrong.  The US does not even recognize western
# Jerusalem (i.e., the part taken by Israel in 1948) as part of Israel.
# I've mentioned in the past that the US State Department will not record
# a person's country of origin in a passport as 'Israel' if they were born
# in Jerusalem.

	Either this is not true, they sliped up at least once, or it only
applies to within a certain time frame.  I know someone who was born
in Jerusalem and in their passport the country of origin is Israel.
Now, this might apply only to those born after 1948, since the
individual I know (my best friend's mother in law) was born prior to
that.

	At any rate this whole argument is ridiculous.  It is not for
anyone else to determine what another country declares is its
capital.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:00:18 GMT
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition

In article <Bryvn0.G9n@watserv1.waterloo.edu>,
idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:

|>>There is no disrespect involved in choosing a language to write
|>>legalese in.  Your claim that this is an insult to France is an prime
|>>example of why I complain we defended the ****ers for 40 years.
|>                                                       ^^^^^^^^^
|>
|>40 years is an understatement. What about WWI and WWII.  

Nope, WE in the UK defended France in WWII. The US merely helped recapture it.


Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:11:11 GMT

In article <22027@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>You appear to be avoiding the question.  How many Jews have been killed
>BY A ROCK BEING HURLED AT THEM?


I dont have the #s but I recall a few...
You are so good at knowing everything - yet you choose only to tell us
the anti-Israel facts when you choose to speak.


>And while you're at it, how often should such deaths happen before it
>would, in your opinion, be appropriate to refer to stones as "deadly
>weapons"?  Also, give us an estimate of how many stones have been thrown
>at people in the occupied territories during the period in which the
>Jewish deaths you list have occurred.  For reference, you might wish to
>compare the dangers of being attacked by such a stone to those of being
>shot, just so we can put it all in prespective


At the Kotel, if the stone would have hit a wall-wailer [:)] it would
most likely hit him on the head-pretty much cracked skull/dead.

A 5.56 bullet flying 3KM/SEC hitting somone in the hands, legs, and
big areas of the abdomen[?] would  puncture - sometimes requiering
immediate help.  I assume that a hit in the head or heart would be
usually fatal.


Following up on my 'physics of stones' post - I woz informed that my
drawing might be nice on paper but with air friction the velocity will
stabelize at one point.  The same person estimated 60 M/SEC but I
would consider it a rough estimate.  Also he estimated that it would
equal a nice healthy hammer going 1M/SEC - if you can imagine a health
hammar 1M/SEC with a vector in your head's direction - you can imagine
your broken skull - can't ya?


And waddaya expect?  Just in case my argument is not highly accurate-

would you expect the border police guards to do some quick math before
they attempt to stop the stone throwing?



>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21


-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
From: martillo@stars.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:16:21 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Inc., Hopkinton, MA

In article <1992Jul21.150911.9744@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>In article <37312@imag.imag.fr> oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
>>analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

>>: Does anyone have access to the official French version of Resolution
>>: 242?  It would be interesting to see how that part was expressed in
>>: the usually very precise French. Or it may be, since French was "the
>>: language of diplomacy" that the French have even more elegant ways of
>>: waffling "the territories" than we do.

>>  I'll try to find the official version somewhere, all what i have handy is a
>>magazine called historama (a very serious one) and the text mentionned is
>>"retrait DES territoires occupes". Notice that this DES is a combinaison of
>>two articles : DE + LES which leaves no doubt that the French version means
>>THE territories, if i can find enough time i'll try to check it in a more
>>"serious" source.
>>  BTW, the term used frequently here by the media and by politicians is the
>>same as above. 

>The following was copied from a message which appeared earlier

>------------------- Begin included message -----------------------------

>I am only discussing a point of English grammar here.

>I want croissants == Je veux des croissants == I want some croissants.

>It does not mean

>Je veux les croissants == I want the (specified) croissants.

>Nor does it mean

>Je veux tous les croissants == I want (all) the croissants.

>English plurals can function comparable to partitives in French and other
>languages -- a source of never ending agony for translators.

>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
>------------------- End Included Message ---------------------------

>This appears to define "retrait DES territoires occupes" as meaning
>"some" (unspecified amount) territories.

I am only entering this discussion from the standpoint of grammar
because I know that I take some to court and rant about legality
when I am trying to punish someone not when I am trying to
solve a problem.

Anyway, I am not a native French speaker but I know enough grammar
to be unhappy with the use of my comment to support an invalid
interpretation.

se retirer du monde == to retire from, withdraw from the world.

retrait du monde == retirement, withdrawal from the world.

Hence

se retirer des territoires == to withdraw from *the* territories
(non-partitive).

retrait des territoires == withdrawal from *the* territories
(non-partitive).

Ibaa Oueichek is correct that this is a different *des*.

>Can we have confirmation from other French speakers please.

>Hillel Markowitz        H_Markowitz@att.com

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:55:09 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: What price for peace?

Nabil writes:
I don't care what Hajj Amin was. All I know is that the Palestinians at
that time were opposed to establishing a Jewish state. I think Jews would
have done the same thing if they were majority at that time.

I say:
So, you mean Serbians are as well justified to throw the Croats and the
Muslims into the Adriatic, aren't they ?

Rad
From: oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 23 Jul 92 09:59:25 GMT
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
: In article <11102@crackers.clearpoint.com> martillo@stars.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
: >
: >Anyway, I am not a native French speaker but I know enough grammar
: >to be unhappy with the use of my comment to support an invalid
: >interpretation.
: >
: >se retirer du monde == to retire from, withdraw from the world.
: >
: >retrait du monde == retirement, withdrawal from the world.
: >
: >Hence
: >
: >se retirer des territoires == to withdraw from *the* territories
: >(non-partitive).
: >
: >retrait des territoires == withdrawal from *the* territories
: >(non-partitive).
: >
: >Ibaa Oueichek is correct that this is a different *des*.
: 
:In any case the question of wording in French is rather
: pointless, since the resolution was debated and drafted in English,
: therefore the English text is the official wording by the UN's own
: rules.  End of story.

  Very good, someone asks for the French version, when i post it and explain
its meaning and how it speaks for THE territories, Mr Perlman comes and says
"pointless". If i remember well (and i'll verify this one) there is nothing as
"drafted in English", the French draft is an *original* one drafted 
SIMULTANEOUSLY with the English one, it has the SAME value, La France adopts 
an official position based on the French draft, and not on the English one.
  It's obvious that the US has chosen carefully to put enough ambiguity in the
English draft to play with the interpretation later. Your position reflects
some disrespect to the France and to the international institutions in general, 
because it means that there are "superior" nations that impose their will on
others even if those other nations are civilized and welthy. No wonder why the
France has left the NATO and why Europeans are doing their best to kick Yankees
out of Europe.
: 
: 
: -- 
--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. ouicheck@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:45:42 GMT
	<1xhmrlb.analyst@netcom.com> <1992Jul24.173903.11971@ncsu.edu>
	<BrywrI.Hpq@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
	<1992Jul26.145638.8927@dscomsf.desy.de>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: hallam@zeus02.desy.de's message of 26 Jul 92 14:56:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.145638.8927@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) writes:
>
> In article <BrywrI.Hpq@watserv1.waterloo.edu>,
> idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:
>
> |> The Arab countries promised the end of the boycott for the stopping
> |> of settlements. Israel has agreed to the latter.
>
> No, this is not the case. Israel has temporarily ceased to issue new
> contracts in some of the occupied teritories. They have not made an
> undertaking not to resume.

It's worse than that: Israel has not even stopped settlement building.
Israel is currently in the midst of a gigantic construction effort in
the occupied territories begun by Shamir and Sharon, and Rabin has
decided to continue this with no abatement whatsoever.  Even homes where
only foundation work has begun are allowed to continue.  This is no
concession at all from Israel, since without extra money and loan
guarantees from the US and elsewhere it wouldn't even have the money for
new construction projects.  The loan guarantees are probably what will
provide Israel with the ability to complete the construction currently
under way.  And with all the nonsense about how Rabin's talk about
"security" settlements may be just a smokescreen to hide the fact that
he'll limit settlements everywhere -- it now turns out that his
definition of "security" areas is extremely liberal, encompassing large
portions of the occupied territories.

Shamir himself offered the US some time ago only to complete housing
units whose construction had already begun (and even to have the money
spent on this work deducted from the guaranteed loans!).  This was
dismissed by the US as a meaningless gesture.  Now Rabin is doing the
same thing Shamir offered to do.

> The conditions for the ending of the Arab boycott are rather more
> substantial than mere suspension of building settlements.

Actually, they're not, as far as I know.  In an interview I can repost,
a Saudi representative stated about a year ago that a mere suspension --
albeit a *total* suspension -- *would* be enough.  But what Israel is
doing now is a joke.  The LA Times last week noted that Baker was
perfectly well aware of this, and consequently didn't even raise the
possibility of a suspension of the Arab boycott in his talks with Arab
leaders.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Advice needed
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:20:09 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


Now that I have his mail bouncing back to him, A. Jaber now has 
his friends sending me e-mail.  Anyone have any advice on how to 
deal with this lunatic?

thanks,
anwar
-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman)
Subject: Re: propaganda
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:49:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.182422.18938@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jsaypol@dasher.UUCP (Josh Saypol) writes:
>
>If you are including this to show that the Arabs do not deserve
>peace from the Israelis it is about to backfire.

  I never mentioned or implied that "Arabs do not deserve peace".
  Did I say that? My argument is simply to counteract the notion,
  mentioned or implied quite a bit in TPM and elsewhere, that
  Israel never really faced a serious threat to its existence.



>
>Yehoshefat Harkabi (author of the book you quote the editorial from)
>beleives the Israelis should make a land for peace deal AND negotiate
>with the PLO if need be.
>
>I refer you to his book "Israel's Fateful Hour" .   It's 1989 or
>1990.  I do not know the publisher offhand.
>

  I read that book. Once again, my intent is to shed light on the
  motives of Arab gov'ts ( NOT Arabs in general), predominately before
  1967.

                        
   Did I ever mention anything about my personal opinions on territorial
   concessions, Rabin, Peres, etc..?

>Turning the Arab propaganda back against them is also
>propaganda.

  Is it? Is it propaganda to mention that Israel's enemies made public
  pronouncements to destroy it?  
>
>
> Josh Saypol
>
> --   |   |   |  -----   |    |     -----    --   |      |   |   |
>   |  |   |   |       |  |    |    |     |     |   ---   |   |   |
>   |  |   |   |       |   ----|    |     |     |      |  |   |   |
>   |   --- ---   -----        /    ------      |     /    --- ---
>       		          ---                       | 
>	
>	"Stop playing these stupid `I'm not talking to you' games
> 	 and just work it out already." 
>			-- Your nursery school teacher 


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast