From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Self-love, self-esteem, and "saving the earth" as heresies
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:31:18 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <Apr.2.01.06.46.1992.9175@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>In article <Apr.1.03.31.12.1992.11307@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:
>>
>>
>>To a very great extent, any creed that teaches a person to consider
>>themselves as wonderful and always improving is going to run afoul
>>of Christianity. Christians, under the prodding of scripture and personal
>>experience, take a darker view of the goodness inherent in man (ie, many deny
>>it exists). To the extent that a self-esteem movement tries to promote
>>humanity as really wonderful, good and capable of perfection, it flies in
>>the face of much Christian teaching.
>
>I have a great deal of trouble with this line of thinking.  True there is an
>enormous body of Christian heritage that states that humans are despicable
>sinners and have no rights to feel value and should beat themselves and wear
>hair shirts becuase they were born.  But just becuase this type of thinking
>existed, does that make it Christianity?  Does every tradition that ever
>evolved from Christianity become the truth?  Or are we not part of a living,
>evolving church.

Judy, I think we do have rights to feel value.  I believe the point that
the poster you are responding to is making is that this worth is not 
apart from Jesus.  When self-improvement becomes what it implies, "I am
the one that improves myself", it becomes worthless as the gospel declares.
But when growth comes through a living, thriving union with our gracious
Lord, Jesus,  then we have the basis for our worth.

>I find ample evidence in the Gospel to agree with the more humanistic view
>that man is good.  Original sin is not part and parcel of Christian beliefs.
>Jesus said that "All things I do shall ye do also".  That certainly implies
>the possibility of humans acheiving perfection.  

You have a point Judy.  Please allow me to develop it further:

Jesus says, "I tell you the truth,, anyone who has faith in me will do
what I have been doing.  He will do even greater things than these,
because I am going to the Father."	-John 14:12

Notice the subtlety.  It is *because* Jesus goes to the Father.  And it
is because one has faith in Jesus.  the subtlety lies in that it appears
that it is "we" who are doing the works, yet the works are accomplished
not through faith in ourselves, but in Him.  The next verse clarifies
our Lord's thoughts:

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring
glory to the Father.  You may ask me for anything in my name, and I
will do it."	-John 14:13

Now, it becomes clear that the motivations, the compelling, the power to
perform is Jesus Christ and not ourself.  It is He who accomplishes His
work in us.  That's why in verse 12 our faith is in "Him" and not "us"
and that is why in verse 13 He said "and I will do it."

He goes on to teach us: "Because I live, you will also live.  On that
day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I
am in you."		-John 14:19-20

Jesus then casts this truth in concrete when He says it plainly:
"I am the vine; you are the branches.  If a man remains in me and
I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
			-John 15:5

>Jesus tells us that God loves
>us so much that even the hairs on our head are counted.  We are more worthy
>than the sparrow.  In fact, God so loved humanity he sent his only begotten
>son to us.  I find that pretty convincing evidence that humans are innately
>wonderful!

How right you are.  This is where our worth ultimately lies.  It is not 
found by looking at ourselves but at the One who infinitely loves us.

>
>-- 
>I finally decided what I want on my tombstone...
>
>	"Here lies Judy Leedom Tyrer.  The world will never see another like 
>	 her.  We are undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing."	

God bless,

John Emery
emery@tc.fluke.COM