From: HarriRehnberg@salient.com (Salient Software)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: AutoDoubler 2.0 + GK: It Just Keeps Getting Worse
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 17:33:43 PST
Organization: Fifth Generation Systems
Reply-To: HarriRehnberg@salient.com (Salient Software)
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <JACKR.92Dec16093843@dblues.wpd.sgi.com> (comp.sys.mac.system), jackr@wpd.sgi.com (John "Jack" Repenning) writes:
...
|Autodoubler has long carried some really snotty messages to the effect
|that "you must remove GateKeeper before installing Auto Doubler."

Every installer I have seen warns against installing software while
anti-viral software is running.  The installer wasn't upgraded to
reflect the update of GateKeeper.

|Despite the warnings, and the gyrations needed to get around the AD
|installer, the conflict wasn't too serious: sometimes, AD couldn't
|compress a file, and a copy would be left in a top-level folder called
|"AutoDoubler Rescued Items," or something like that.  Once in a while,
|I would trash that folder, but the "original" of the file was always
|in its proper spot.

The "~AutoDoubler Rescued Items" folder appears ONLY if a crash has
occured.  If, on startup, AutoDoubler finds that the ~AutoDoubler Temporary
Items" folder exists it renames it to "~AutoDoubler Rescued Items"
and places it on the desktop.  You should verify the files in this
folder with the originals to make sure the originals are the latest
versions in case the crash occured during the first save to a compressed
file.  Since I have been using AutoDoubler from its initial release
I have never found that the files in the "~AutoDoubler Rescued Items"
folder to be the needed.  However you should still verify any time
you have a crash.

...
|I even checked the documents that come with the program, using a
|friend's copy.  The AD 2.0 "Configuring Virus Checkers" document says
|you need GK version 1.2.6 ("or later," though 1.2.6 is presently the
|latest).  OK, I have 1.2.6.  It also says you need to grant Copy
|Doubler (a part of AD 2.0) certain permissions, "the same as
|AutoDoubler," a kind of back-handed way of claiming that these
|permissions will make things work.
|

The "Configuring Virus Checkers" virus checkers document was edited
by me prior to the inception of the AutoDoubler Internal Compressor.
During the testing of AutoDoubler with all available virus checkers
I found what is stated in "Configuring Virus Checkers".  After the
AIC was released for testing to beta testers and Fifth Generation
Systems software testers our products were compressed with it.  The
conflict with GateKeeper was not found until after AD 2.0 was shipping.
The "Configuring Virus Checkers" file has been update for the 2.0.1
release to indicate that will not run with GateKeeper.

|The Impossible Dream!
|
|The snotty installation message is still there.  But circumventing it
|is now a Very Bad Idea, because loads of other snotty things are also
|"new and improved" with this version.  In fact, AD2.0 causes
|(seemingly) every control panel in my CP folder to futz its resources
|in ways GK does not like.  I'm unwilling to grant permissions like
|this to every CP.  Even though I trust AD's use of these calls, they
|are indeed "very suspicious activities" (of the very first water) that
|would be just the sort of thing a virus writer would use, and it
|doesn't appear to me that AD has given GK 1.2.6 enough information to
|discern the legitimate calls from the illegitimate.

ALL calls made by AutoDoubler are legitimate.  We comply with Apple
guidelines.  We use system calls as required by Apple in order to
remain compatible with future releases of system software.  If we
wanted we could write our software so that we use no system calls
however we would not be compatible with future systems, we would increase
the size of our code, we would slow down our code, we would bypass
all virus checkers without a problem, just like any virus anyone
cares to write.  The calls that GateKeeper objects to are made by the
AutoDoubler Internal Compressor resources in all AIC'd items.  The same
single read only call.

|
|I called Fifth Generation.  Their first tech support person parroted
|the installer's snot.  (Is this the legendary quality support that was
|supposed to make us so glad that Fifth Generation had bought Salient?
|I am unimpressed, to say the least!)  The second tech support person
|claimed that "for years, we have kept AD compatible with GK" (an
|amazing claim, from a company that's only owned AD for, what is it,
|two months now?  And "compatible" is quite a mouthful for what AD was
|before!).  The rest of this person's remarks tended toward the claim
|that GK had suddenly become stupider (without an update - very
|impressive!), and FGS was not to be blamed.

I can not speak about your experiences with Fifth Generation Systems
tech support other than to say that the personnel that are trying
to help you are learning all the facets of Salient products as they
speak to you.  Anyone that has worked in tech support must start out
at the beginning with the product and learn as you go.  The source
of information they rely on is their personal experience, a data base,
their managers, and the programmers.  In the case of the programmers
the lines of communication have been stretched from 12 paces and a
demo/explanation to a phone call/e-mail.  Once their experience with
the product grows to the degree the Salient tech support department
had, you will find that misunderstandings/miscommunications will be
reduced conciderably.

|
|I said I wanted my money back.  They said, "certainly: ship is back
|the product, mention this number, and we'll refund your purchase
|price."  I said, "what about my sales tax and shipping costs?"  They
|said, "oh, yes, sales tax, heh, heh, heh.  Of course, that too."  I
|said, "what about my shipping costs."  They said "not for a
|compatibility return."  I said, "look, this is a defective product,
|the developers of AutoDoubler have known about the class of problem
|for years, and they have made it worse with this version, either
|through neglect or through pig-headedness.  This is not a
|compatibility problem, this is a design defect."  In view of those
|blurbs about GK version numbers and settings, it seems like "false
|advertising" might be suggested as well, come to think of it.

When we become aware of a conflict everything possible is done to
resolve it.  If the problem is with the other product then we are
powerless to do anything about it.

If following Apple guidelines is the sign of a defective product then
perhaps you should concider another brand of computer.

|
|They brought in two managers, who contributed the observation that
|"the makers of GateKeeper" (has Chris Johnson been cloned?  That's one
|good thing to come out of all this, anyway :-\) "have admitted that
|this was their fault, and would be bringing out a new version."  I
|haven't heard of this planned new version, but it would certainly be a
|good thing.  Looks pretty hard to do (on the scale of the TuneUp trap
|door, perhaps?).  But it doesn't shift the blame.

We don't indulge in finger pointing, just facts.

|
|Well, don't choke now, Fifth Generation Systems, it's not _that_ hard.
|Make sure Chris has whatever information he needs ("she needs"?  It
|occurs to me I don't know whether Chris is male or female - sorry,
|Chris!).  Make sure s/he has some of your programming resources, if
|that's what's needed (remember which of you is doing this from

ANY programmer that contacts us about a conflict with one of our products
does receive our assistance and cooperation.

|altruism, and which for profit).  Make sure you don't change
|whatever's needed in any future version.  And make sure _you_ test
|future versions of AD with GK.
|
|Before release.
|
|

We test with all virus programs we are aware of.

|
|Jack Repenning			1-875	     jackr@wpd.sgi.com
|Silicon Graphics, Inc.		            Off:(415) 390-3027
|Visual Magic Division			    Fax:(415) 390-6056
|

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.hardware