From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Subject: Re: BEST POINT GUARD IN NBA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:01:38 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Sep11.015522.2275@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> rda452j@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (R.A. Misajon) writes:
>In article <w0q-7GC@engin.umich.edu>, martyp@engin.umich.edu (Martin Pochmara) writes:
>> 
>> > STOCKTON
>> > - leads league in assists every year
>> > - lead league in steals in 91-92
>> > - scores about 15 points a game
>> > - team leader
>> >
>> > HARDAWAY
>> > - scores more than Stockton (about 22 a game)
>> > - not as many assists
>> > - more turnovers
>> > - less steals
>> > - not as good defensively
>> > - but penetrates the lane better than Stockton (with that "killer" UTEP 2 STEP)
>> > - more of a flashy point guard than Stockton
>> > 
>> >                    I need as many replies as possible
>> >
>> 
>> You are an idiot if you think statistics can rate a player. Everyone
>> here on the net seems to think that how many points, rebounds,
>> assists, (other useless stats), can somehow rate a player. There
>> are so many intangible factors that people don't think about
>> when rating a player. Off the top of my head, how about:
>> (In General) the west scores higher than the East; therefore,
>> players from the west should have higher averages. BUT, people
>> here don't take that into consideration, player X is a better
>> scorer because he scored 15.7 points to player Y's 14.9. 
>> That's BULLSHIT! There are so many other factors that people
>> here on the net have not mentioned, like: 1) What is player
>> X's role on the team 2) Is team X a offensive team or defensive
>> team? 3) How much talent is on the team? 4) How well does
>> he match up when guarded by other players? 5) How smart does
>> the player play,6) How much heart does the guy have?
>> , and a zillion other factors....
>> 

Though you have a good point, remember one thing.  Can you give a
fact based analysis of the factors you mention?? Or, is it all based
on opinion.  For example..
1) What is player X's role on the team?  Is it his role because he fills
the role, or cuz' it is all he can do.  IE. Orlando Woolridge is a scorer,
brought in to put points on the board...

2) Is team X an offensive/defensive team??  Well, if they score low and keep
there opponents to a low score, are they a defensive team, or just a poor
offensive team that slows things down to keep it close?  

3) How much talent is on the team?  Well, also look at whether that talent
would be better/worse without certain players.  Is Robert Parish considered
a HOF-caliber center because of his talent, or did playing with Bird,
McHale, DJ, etc... take an average center and make him look like a HOF..

4) Match-ups???  Who cares... 

5) How smart does a player play???  Is there any IQ tests for players, or is
it opinion.  Larry Bird is considered an extremely mental player.  Maybe
true, maybe not.  What makes a player "smart" and one "dumb".  If Larry Bird
did the things he did throughout his career, and wasn't successful, he would
have been considered a "dumb" player.  All those passes, shots, etc.. are
not usually considered the "smart" play, except that Bird (and Magic) could
make it happen.  Talent makes them appear smart, though I believe they were
both smart anyway.

6) How much heart?? Who can measure??  

Many of these things are often considered greatly when comparing two players.
>> An example of reason 1) would be Scottie Pippen. Would he
>> be a better scorer on another team? I think yes, because
>> on another team he would be the GO-TO guy instead of
>> playing second notch behind Jordan IMHO. 

But, at the same point, he would be more heavily guarded and would not
get the types of opportunites.  Also, would the other team be an up-tempo
team, where Pippen thrives, or a half-court team, where Pippen does not.
Hard to say..

>> 
>> Reason 2) The Pistons are a defensive team and not known for
>> their offensive aggresiveness(sp?), but Denver is a offensive
>> team not known for their defense, but do you think Woolridge
>> when he played there was a better scorer than Isiah Thomas?
>> The stats said so, but I don't think so...

And why not??? Yes, he played on a more offensive oriented team, but 
he still shot almost 50% from the field.  Thomas, that same year, only
shot 43.5%.  Does the "tempo" factor account for the 9ppg difference??
Both were the "go-to" player in the team's offense (sort of, Michael
Adams was really the go-to guy for Denver and Dumars for Detroit)

>> 
>> 5) How does the player react when something happens that
>> he doesn't expect? Will he catch a ball that bounced off
>> his head? Dive for a ball dribbled off his foot? Keep
>> driving to the lane even though his ankle turned on a 
>> players foot? Not panic when the other team hits a 
>> miracle three-pointer with 2 seconds left, but somehow
>> inbounds a full-court pass to a player for a
>> go-ahead lay-up as time expires....

And, is there anyway to measure this??? Or even compare it in a way that
the results are not totally inflammatory???
>> 
>> There are so many factors to deal with that it becomes
>> nearly impossible to evaluate a player, especially
>> based on a few simple stats. All I know is that
>> I try to take everything I see, know, and read into
>> consideration and then evaluate a player. 
>> I think Magic and Bird are better than Jordan as of
>> now because of all the intangibles. If Jordan keeps      
>> playing like he is, in a few years, I will consider
>> him as good or better than Magic/Bird....But, as for
>> point guard...that is the best point guard in the NBA,
>> I have to go with Isiah Thomas for all the stats
>> plus the intangibles. NOBODY HAS MORE HEART FOR THE
>> GAME....

You talk about how you hate stats cuz' they don't show the whole story.
Then you have the balls to say "NOBODY HAS MORE HEART FOR THE GAME".
You mean, not even Larry Bird, who has played through severe back pain the
last few years, or with the broken face, or who came back after smashing his
face on the parquet floor???  Or more heart than Magic Johnson, who is 
attempting to come back even with HIV???  Or more than a half-dozen other
players???  How can you "compare" the intangibles you talk about???

I am not argueing your opinion of Isiah, or any other player, just questioning
your reasoning.  I agree with you that stats don't tell the whole story,
and, even worse, don't tell things in a true sense (difference: stats don't
really exist for many areas, vs. areas were stats exist, but aren't used in
total, ie.. scoring average taken with relation to teams' scoring tempo, etc..)
>> 
>> 			MHO,
>> 				Marty Pochmara
>> 
>
>i agree completely with everything you said. Zeke must have the biggest heart
>of any player I have ever seen. He's not afraid to take the clutch shots and
>make them . He has helped the Pistons to 2 championships, passes well, and 
>knows how to "ride ": the "hot hand" on the team but despite all this there 
>is still people who critize him and dont give him the credit he deserves.
>I guess people either hate him or love him, but he has proven himself many timesover,I really don't think he is the best point guard in the NBA right now 
>because of his age,this has to go to Stockton. but he still has to rate in the
>top 5.


-- 
David T. Meeks                    ||" We are jigsaw pieces, aligned on the 
VMark Software, Inc.              ||  perimeter edge, 
uvmark!davem@merk.com             ||  interlocked through a missing piece"
davem%uvmark@merk.com             ||" ...This world is totally Fugazi"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro