HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD . . .)
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Aug18.135323.29297@progress.com> <23480@alice.att.com>
	<a_rubin.714260674@dn66>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:39:55 GMT

In article <a_rubin.714260674@dn66> a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:

   In <23480@alice.att.com> jj@alice.att.com (jj@alice.att.com, curmudgeon and clueless white boy) writes:

   >I particularly had to laugh when some poor dweeb claimed that
   >"alt" was part of USENET.  It was created specifically because
   >it was NOT part of USENET.  Learn the facts before you flame
   >away, guy.

   Quoting from spaf's "What is USENET?":

   >WHAT USENET IS
   >--------------
   >Usenet is the set of people who exchange articles tagged with one or
   >more universally-recognized labels, called "newsgroups" (or "groups"
   >for short).

   "alt" seems to be included to me.  The newsgroup creation guidelines are a
   little (well, a lot) more relaxed on "alt", but there are still guidelines.

Quoting again from Spaf:

From: spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford)
Newsgroups: news.lists,news.groups,news.announce.newusers,news.announce.newgroups,news.answers
Subject: List of Active Newsgroups, Part I
Date: 20 Jul 92 06:48:52 GMT

Archive-name: active-newsgroups/part1
Last-change: 19 July 1992 by spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford)

The following is a list of currently active USENET newsgroups as of
20 Jul 1992.  This list does not include the gatewayed Internet 
newsgroups (see below).  The groups distributed worldwide are divided
into seven broad classifications: "news", "soc", "talk", "misc",
"sci", "comp" and "rec".  Each of these classifications is organized
into groups and subgroups according to topic.
---end of quote---

It seems to me we have multiple uses for the same word.  I like to
think of USENET as being a `set of people [first quote]' or machines,
or groups, depending on context, that use `accepted' transfer means/
protocols to transfer what we think of as articles.  This would
include alt.

The second quote talks about `USENET newsgroups', sometimes called
`hierarchies' (in the right context).  Note that alt is missing from
this list, as are ca, de, uk, fj, eunet, vmsnet, k12, gnu, clari, and
the rest of them.  (See the `List of Alternative Newsgroups'.)  (Also
not included are `inet' groups, which are named within the USENET
hierarchies, but aren't USENET groups, but that's another flamewar.
:-) Authority for these `non-mainstream' groups is different, in
general, from the authority for the USENET groups.

So, alt is part of USENET, since it uses the USENET highway (same set
of protocols, etc.), but alt groups are not USENET groups (since it's
not one of the seven listed above).  Confusing, right?  No wonder we
have arguments such as the above.  But this ambiguity is merely one of
the failings of natural language.  (Why do I feel an urge to xpost to
alt.usage.english?)
--
J Lee Jaap <jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov> +1 804/864-2148
employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: bdb@becker.GTS.ORG (Bruce Becker)
Subject: Re: lost news, space shortage
Reply-To: uucpadm@becker.gts.org
Organization: G. T. S., Toronto, Ontario
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:15:29 GMT

In article <BsorK6.2J1@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
|In article <1992Aug7.094033.7892@egh-qc.uucp> bruce@egh-qc.uucp (Bruce Fisher) writes:
|>The question is has anyone got a script or something which checks how much
|>space is left as the news batches arrive via uucp and is able to break the
|>uucp link if the limit set by spacefor is about to be exceeded.
|
|It really needs to be done *in* your uucp, unfortunately (specifically,
|in uucico).  Trying to supervise uucp from outside is awkward, all the
|more so if you're trying to make the supervisor portable, since uucps
|vary a lot.
|
|Some uucps do this already, although they have their own notion of how
|short space has to be before a shortage begins, and it's usually set
|pretty low.


	I do this here with a program which I
	inherited & tweaked  - it measures the
	relevant resource (spool space & inodes)
	and kills uucico if the resource is in
	danger.  It knows to do different things
	for different sites (via shell script) so
	that news flow can be stopped while email
	continue etc.


	I also do this for uuxqt, but the result
	is a bit less satisfactory in that the
	control is not on a per-system basis (it
	needs to do this from within uuxqt)


	I may hack Taylor uucico & uuxqt to
	incorporate this stuff in the near future...


-- 
  ,u,	 Bruce Becker			Toronto, Ontario
a /i/	 Internet: bdb@becker.gts.org	Uucp: ...!web!becker!bdb
 `\o\-e	 "We want the worm, and we want a cow!"
 _< /_	 	- More Jimison, ordering drinks for his table
Xref: sparky news.admin:6977 alt.censorship:6895 alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk:2548
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD . . .)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:08:22 GMT

In article <23498@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, curmudgeon and clueless old white boy) writes:
>In article <7JHILW8@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Why not? The Houston Chronicle does. And they have shown no reluctance to
>>quote net articles and email (which is why I no longer subscribe).

>And if pressed, which they most surely should have been, they 
>would have justified their use of articles under "fair use".

Oh, I guess I should explain more. It's not that they used them, it's that
they misquoted several people rather badly (not just myself), and when I
pressed them and provided the quotes in context they refused to acknowledge
they might have made a mistake.

They have the right to engage in yellow journalism, and I have the right
to not support them. If they can mess up something this simple this badly,
there's no way I can trust any of their other reporting anyway.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
From: lowen@lorc.UUCP (Lamar Owen)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: NetNews/CD - USENET News Available
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 11:13:36 EDT
Organization: LORC Enterprises
Followup-To: news.admin.policy

hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:

> In article <y9XZoB1w164w@lorc.UUCP> lowen@lorc.UUCP (Lamar Owen) writes:
> 
> Perhaps we should limit the discussion to the "distribution" symbolic
> names that already exist, instead of trying to extend yea/nea permission
> to individual machines/domains?

Perhaps so.

> >you have that capability now with the Path: line in the header.
> 
> Wait a minute!  I thought the Path: line was constructed by the
> propogation mechanism as a record of the sites an article went
> through to get to wherever it is when you read it.  How are you
> using Path: to control anything???

As a site admin, I can edit my articles' headers prior to batching.  Most users
cannot, of course.  So, if I go edit an article, and the existing path is
I can then make it
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:30:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.183602.4348@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>     One more round at least.

>In article <xczmsjg.barry@netcom.com> barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>>...suppression of
>>"porn" is a Victorian phenomenon and was little-practised before the
>>19th century.

>     That is, little-practised when the media had very little
>distribution and most people were illiterate.

There has always been a *lot* of what you call "porn" around. Please
check any good university library for a number of relevant historical
texts.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Computer graphics and child pornography
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:16:15 GMT

In article <jim.714109684@ferkel> jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick) writes:
>Neither of the two followups addressed the original question:
>
>Is a completely artificial (but possible very realistic in appearance)
>image of what appears to be a child (or minor) involved in sexual
>activity illegal?
>
   Someone posted a term paper on child porn (prepared I think for alaw
school class) to alt.sex.movies, but it was way mangled. If I get a good
copy, I will post it here, or perhaps to news.admin.policy (or suggest
that the author post).

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:20:46 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
> In case you missed it, Canada is not only a democracy, but these laws
> enjoy the overwhelming support of the entire country.  State censorship?
> Bullshit.  The state is us.

Even for those of us who advocate its elimination?


mathew
-- 
"Even the most bizarre of the unions (probably that between a cat's gall
 stone and a single note 'G' from CNN's ident theme) managed to convey a
 sense of rampant impropriety."  -- 'Fortran Five', Simon G. Lawrence Leonard

Xref: sparky news.admin:7067 alt.config:5154
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Newsgroups: news.admin,alt.config
Subject: Re: new groups
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:40:10 GMT
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <0095F15C.24A70AA0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> gsl2598@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:

   I saw a post about how to create rec groups, etc.., but how would I create
   an alt. group?   It seems like there are a lot of bogus groups out there,
   so it shouldn't be too hard...

Your question seems to be, "How do I *legitimately* create an
alt.group."  You complicate that by mentioning all the bogus alt
groups, which are not clearly "legitimate."

Yes, the definition of "legitimate" is a lot more vague in alt, and
some would say that *all* alt newsgroups are in some sense
"legitimate," but that is not obvious to me.

In any case, the answer to your question can be found in this posting:

Subject: Creating a new "alt" group -- guidelines
Newsgroups: alt.config,news.groups,news.answers

Available in the indicated USENET newsgroup(s), or via anonymous ftp from
pit-manager.mit.edu (18.172.1.27) in the file:

/pub/usenet/news.answers/alt-config-guide

Also available from mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu by sending a mail
message containing:

send usenet/news.answers/alt-config-guide

Send a message containing "help" to get general information about the
mail server.

Jonathan Kamens                                         jik@MIT.Edu
MIT Information Systems/Athena              Moderator, news.answers
    (Send correspondence related to the news.answers newsgroup
        {and ONLY correspondence related to the newsgroup}
                 to news-answers-request@MIT.Edu.)
From: medley@sun44.synercom.hounix.org (Bert Medley)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Rmgroup/newgroup policies (Was: Re: Offensive Newsgroup)
Keywords: newsgroups, creation, removal
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:03:59 GMT
Organization: Synercom Technology, Inc., Houston, TX

In article <bsuf7h.3wx@wang.com> fitz@wang.com (Tom Fitzgerald) writes:
>paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO) writes:
>
>> Responsible administrators dishonor both automatic newgroup and rmgroup
>> commands.  Picking and choosing which alt groups to create, for example,
>> prevents a lot of dreck from cluttering your spool disk.
>
>What's the problem?  I leave automatic newgroups enabled, because I want
>the genuine groups to be created instantly, even if I'm too busy to do
>routine news maintenance for a week.  I can clean out the dreck later.
>Dreck is no less dreck if it gets filed in 'junk'.  Creating a bogus group
>(temporarily) costs nothing.
>

The problem occurs when you are running a node using a version of UNIX that
only allows 32K (or is it 64K) of inodes in a filesystem.  If you carry a 
full feed, those useless groups chew up inodes for no good reason.  Our local
user's group, running ISC on a 386/25 has had this happen several times and
is considering dropping alt.* for that reason.
-- 
Bert Medley				medley@synercom.hounix.org 	[work]
					bert@medley.ssdl.com		[home]
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: news@ac.wfunet.wfu.edu (News Administrator)
Subject: limiting the number of groups
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Summary: Limiting the number of groups
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:43:53 GMT
X-Posted-From: ac.wfunet.wfu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I'm running NN and NNTP client on our machine. We access a remote NNTP
server to get our news articles. Is there a way to limit the groups
collected by our NNTP client? I can do this on the command line:
   nnmaster -r alt comp news misc.jobs   ....
but the list is getting a bit too big. I tried editing the GROUPS
file, but it didn't really do anything. Is there a way to control the
groups without using the command line options?
Please respond to news@wfunet.wfu.edu.
Much thanks in advance!!

-dka
News Administrator
Wake Forest University
-- 
News Administrator
Wake Forest University
news@wfunet.wfu.edu
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:41:07 GMT

In article <3738@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca> clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>So now you're calling Canada fascist.  By tradition, comparing something
>to Hitler or Nazi Germany usually ends the discussion.  Not.

Not, indeed.  It seldom ends the discussion.  It is often a sign that
the discussion has degraded past the point of being useful (if it ever
was, a chancy proposition on the Usenet).

I am not necessarily saying that's true of this particular thread
because I haven't been paying enough attention to it to know.
I wouldn't be surprised though.  I'm fairly certain it's gone beyond
the point of belonging in news.admin though.
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Actually I'm not clueless.  I'm conceptually challenged.
Newsgroups: news.admin,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,alt.censorship
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Limiting religious speech
Followup-To: alt.censorship
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:51:40 GMT

Mr. Ault directed follows to alt.censorship (IMO, a good idea),
without mentioning it (IMO, a bad idea).

- Carl



-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:53:51 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <a_rubin.713553791@dn66> a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
>In <C28IR9A@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Yes, it's a bad law. But, really, what alternative have the schools in
>>question got?

>In the Canadian cases, I don't see any.  In the case of public US schools,
>the First Amendment does apply, and the school (probably) cannot make
>content-based decisions as to which newsgroups to accept.

Actually, as I've tried to say, and Carl is seemingly to be implicitly
agreeing, actually no:

The situation in Canada w.r.t. the law is not *qualitatively* different
than in the US, just quantitatively.  The US first amendment seems to
provide absolute freedom of speech, but in actual fact, US Supreme court
decisions have made it obvious that there is a balancing of the first
amendment with other rights.  It is fairly clear, for example, that if
there was incontrovertible evidence that some speech caused severe harm
(say, directly resulted in the deaths of many people), that the Supreme
court would rule that those latter rights outweighed the first amendment.

Even though there isn't incontrovertible evidence in *this* case,
there's enough evidence to indicate that there *may* be some harm,
and that some material may cause more harm than others.

Thus, US Supreme court recognizes that fact and has come up with a set
of criteria to apply.

The Canadian charter does give the right of speech too, the difference
being that this "right balancing" is stated explicitly.

When you consider the actual rules applied to obcenity by the courts
as far as this balancing act goes, you'll also find that they're almost
identical.  "Harm" must be shown.  "Artistic merits" etcetera.
[See Carl's postings on the US criteria, and quotes of Canadian Supreme
court decisions, eg: Sopinka.]

If there's a real difference, it's only where the dividing line is
drawn.  Given the differences in Canada versus the US in how the
people *want* the government to operate (Medicare being a good example)
it's not surprising that, on average, the line is drawn a bit more
on the restrictive side.  And almost everything tends to indicate that
that is how Canadians want it.

[Aside:  the astute reader will no doubtably remark that the "notwithstanding
clause" blows this argument out of the water.  On the other hand, I should
point out that a seemingly implicit "notwithstanding clause" exists in
the USA too - witness the property seizure laws w.r.t. the war against
drugs - law enforcement can permanently confiscate property without any
need to even charge a person with an offence, and that person has no way
to get the property back, even if charged and acquitted.  This seems more
than a trivial violation of due process.]
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups
From: jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens)
Subject: Re: Question about moderation
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:38:53 GMT

(Note cross-post and Followup-To.)

In article <zJb-MF_@engin.umich.edu> positron@engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas) writes:

   1) Has there ever been a precedent for a moderator being forcibly
   replaced as the moderator of a group?

No.

   2) What would such a procedure entail?

That is not at all clear.  I suggest you read the recent threads (all
from the past week) in news.groups with the Subjects "changing the
moderator of a newsgroup" and "changing a newsgroup's moderator."
They have been discussing this very topic.  You may also wish to look
at the postings with Subject lines "3-week discussion period?"
"RFM: rec.arts.erotica," "guidelines for moderator replacement,"
"Alternate suggestion for rec.arts.erotica," etc.  You get the idea.

-- 
Jonathan Kamens                                         jik@MIT.Edu
MIT Information Systems/Athena              Moderator, news.answers
    (Send correspondence related to the news.answers newsgroup
        {and ONLY correspondence related to the newsgroup}
                 to news-answers-request@MIT.Edu.)

Newsgroups: news.admin
From: chil@fraser.sfu.ca (Keith Lim)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 07:36:30 GMT

clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.233103.12268@fid.morgan.com> sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:

>|Likewise, you do what you want on your system.  Of course, as anybody
>|with any experience on the net knows, if you try to stop other people
>|from reading something they want to read, they'll find a way around
>|you.

>Of course.  That's fine.  Then why is everybody screeching
>about freedom of speech???

Because the ability to obtain material through alternative routes
doesn't make the original censoring right, nor make it any less an
action against freedom of speech and freedom of information.

-- 
Keith_Lim@sfu.ca   Simon Fraser University, Burnaby B.C., V5A 1S6, Canada
Forum (Cog Sci); Senate; CDSU; ASC. ...but all opinions are my own only.

          "I see everything twice!" --Joseph Heller, "Catch-22"

Keith_Lim@sfu.ca   Simon Fraser University, Burnaby B.C., V5A 1S6, Canada
Forum (Cog Sci); Senate; CDSU; ASC. ...but all opinions are my own only.

          "I see everything twice!" --Joseph Heller, "Catch-22"
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: Commerical use of the net?
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 08:49:56 GMT

There was a posting in the last few days to comp.org.eff.news which talks a
lot about the future of the network, especially in regards to commercial
access.  From the article it looks like things are opening up a lot.
There's a lot more opportunity in the system for commercial use, although so
called experimental services will still be restricted to r&e.  What this
means is unclear, but they specifically said that the new higher speed
networks would be so restricted.  But otherwise it sounded very promising.
But go read the article, it was fairly interesting.  Not that this is
referring to the NSFnet and NREN.  There's already commercial Internet
providers, and of course UUCP traffic can do what they want.  If the
original poster wanted to know about USENET, then the policy is not entirely
clear.  The custom is that informative technical descriptions of products
and product announcements are allowed, but they should be informative more
than advertisement-like.  In practice, the tolerance of what is or isn't ok
varies all over the map.  As with the general workings of USENET, it is the
readers of a group who decide what does or does not belong.  Different
readers have different ideas about this, but usually there is some bottom
line consensus of what is reasonable.  Some people seem to think that
commercial activity is strictly prohibited, but they are flat out wrong.
Every once in a while one of these people will post a complaint and will
usually be flamed mightily.

                            Jim Lick		       
Work: University of California	| Play: 1236 Camino Meleno
      Santa Barbara		|       Santa Barbara, CA 93111-1007
      Dept. of Mechanical Engr. |	(805) 964-2088 voice/msg
      2311 Engr II Building     |	(805) MUD-SPY1 data
      (805) 893-4113            |       jim@tcp.com
      jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu	| This space intentionally left blank
Newsgroups: news.admin,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk