From: kmoore@ncsc.org (Kevin Moore)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: I'm surprised!
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:55:55 GMT
Reply-To: kmoore@ncsc.org (Kevin Moore)
Organization: North Carolina Supercomputing Center

In article <BvsMvz.MKJ@beach.csulb.edu>, sichermn@beach.csulb.edu (Jeff
Sicherman) writes:
 >In article <1992Oct6.193906.22246@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul Smith) writes:
 >>In article <AVFRBB2C@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu
(Melanie Wertz) writes:
 >>>For those of you that consider parental consent laws to be appropriate,
 >>>consider the following scenarios:
 >>>
 >>>Your parents will disown you if they find out your pregnant.
 >>>You would rather risk a back alley abortion than risk telling your parents.
 >>>You would rather commit suicide than risk telling your parents.
 >>>Your parents are physically abusive.
 >>>Your father IS the father of your child.
 >>
 >>I've been in this discussion on the net before, so I have to jump in...
 >>
 >>(not shouting, just don't know how to do italics in ascii :-)
 >>
 >>I DON'T CARE WHAT EXCEPTION SITUATIONS YOU COME WITH, YOU (and the STATE) 
 >>DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO UNDERMINE *MY* PARENTAL AUTHORITY. *PERIOD*.
 >>
 >>To do so would open (has opened?) up a bigger can of worms...
 >
 >  Patently, morally, ethically, logically wrong. Children are not your
 >property and you don't have absolute authority over them nor ownership
 >of them. They are your responsibility and that grants you certain
 >rights to exercise such parental authority in order to fulfill those
 >responsibilities. But they are not slaves ownded by you but real, living
 >INDIVIDUALS with civil rights under the Constitution, though not strictly
 >identical to those granted to adults under the laws that implement and
 >govern those rights. Hence the state has the right and responsibility to
 >set limits to your authority and the exercise thereof in the perceived
 >best interests of the child.
 >
 >  Then again, here are some (other) sick and extreme people who would
 >argue that incest is an exercise of their right of parental authority
 >and that the state has no right to interfere because it is a god-given
 >right and religious belief. Would you argue that the state has no rights
 >or responsibilities to intercede in such cases as these ? Or beatings ?
 >If not, then the issue is one of degree, not the absolute sort of authority
 >that you (capitalized) statement suggests.

It is amazing how abortion folks are gun hoe about restricting the rights
of parents over children and yet want *absolutely* no restrictions put on
abortion. There are many good reasons to have a parent decide for a teenager
whether an abortion should take place not to mention the fact that it
is in agreement with all other state laws with regard to medical procedures
performed on minors.

As far as states right with regard to parent-children relationships, clearly
noone is suggesting that they have the right to abuse their children (incest,
beating or whatever) and we have laws that make one accountable to this fact.
This does not mean that states should assume all decision making authority
which it seems like they wish to do more and more. I think if parents were
taught responsibility for their children in school rather than the xyz's of
sexual intercourse, we might do a better job of heading some of this off. It
seems like we teach them about sex, tell them it is ok to do it (and give
them condoms so that it is "safe" - what a joke) and then when they do get
pregnant, we tell them it is ok to kill it! How can we be surprised when they
do not respect a child when they do have one? They are told over and over that
their personal desires are more important than the consequences of them
and that
they should avoid the consequences if possible. It seems like a method of
teaching about the patterns of child behavior and methods of discipline would
be worth while. I know there may be some of this, but how about a *required*
course. The curriculum could be put together by a group of folks who are
not biased either way and offer many different views on the subject (to avoid
the folks who want to tell you to never spank your kids). The idea needs some
work, but I think we could intelligently build upon it. Let's tell our kids
that having children is a good thing and it can bring lots of fulfillment.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
||  Kevin Moore                      North Carolina Supercomputing Center   ||
||  Scientific Support Analyst       3021 Cornwallis Rd.                    ||
||  (919) 248-1179                   Research Triangle Park, NC 27709       ||
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ba.politics