HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh)
Subject: Re: NT on CD ROM only? -> was Re: Its a sad sad day...
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 12:13:58 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.233733.1661@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ccb8m@onyx.cs.Virginia.EDU (Charles C. Bundy) writes:
>
>Why shouldn't NT ship on CD-ROM?  Goodness, CD-ROM drives for Intel machines
>can be had for ~$300.  Plus, if you plan to ship something the size of NT
>in volume, Micro-Cruft might as well do what workstation vendors are doing 
>and go CD-ROM exclusively. 

If you pay $300 you're paying 1.5 times what Software Etc. is selling
them for.  You can get one for $200 and get a utilities cd with it....

bill
-- 
 *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@tronsbox.xei.com          *
 *                                                              *
    "There is nothing more frighful than ignorance in action."  

                           Malcolm X
XY + XX = :-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: etxansk@garbo.ericsson.se
Subject: Re: CDTV vs CD-I, Crap CD-I Golf on Show
Originator: etxansk@garbod20
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:15:05 GMT

mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:

>In <1992Oct13.091930.29340@fwi.uva.nl> leeuw@fwi.uva.nl (Jacco de Leeuw) writes:
>>I'm a terrible game player... But the digitized pictures gave it a very
>>realistic touch.

>Surely a matter of taste. IMHO, the game didn't look anything realistic
>but rather like a collage of animated photographs. The sound was cute
>in the beginning but gets annoying after some time.

 To be more specific: I expected the CD-I machine's animation capabilities
to be something of a "new generation" experience, taking advantage
of the so-called "Full Motion Video" technique. I couldn't see anything
in this Golf game that did something a very slow PC computer with VGA
couldn't do.

 Anders Skelander
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@mango.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Essence of flame
X-Quoted: 50%
Reply-To: mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:32:42 -0500

Thus said simon@ivem.ucsd.edu (Simon):
>In article <Bvrs9v.C97.2@cs.cmu.edu>, ddj+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio) writes:
>|> >Macintosh               MacinTrash,MacinToss

>|> The one I'm used to is "Macintoy".

>How about Trashintosh, Crapintosh, Hackandtoss, Smackintosh, Junkintosh,
>Trashandtoss, ... you get the idea :)

You missed "maggotbox".
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen    mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu    MIME & RIPEM accepted
Oh, so UNIX uses slashes for directory stuff!  Did they get that idea
from MS-DOS?  
		- <name withheld to prevent terminal embarassment>
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A4000 has no "deinterlacer" -- ALL IDIOTS WHO DONT UNDERSTAND READ THIS!
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:52:59 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange

In article <1992Oct15.170746.24859@mercury.unt.edu> west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West) writes:
>
>THE A4000 HAS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVLY NO USE FOR A DEINTERLACER!!!!
>
>   Got it?  Do you understand?  The "Double" modes eliminate flicker.     

     Zzzzzt. Yes, DblNTSC and DblPAL are great, but not everyone is going to
exclusively use these modes. There are still plenty of interlaced modes on the
A4000 which flicker (I went through most of them last night). Productivity is
nice. There is room for a flicker fixing device for the A4000.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                   BIX: ggiles 
All opinions expressed are my own.            Internet: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu
Amiga, MSDOS CDROM, Sega CD                   Head over heals in love. 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re: A4000, A Marketable Machine?
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:44:11 GMT

>|> 	I don't know about that.  Gateway 2000 has a 66/486 vesa local bus
>|>   system running an ATI Ultra Pro graphics card.  I bet thats pretty fast.
>|>   Its cheaper than the A4000 also, along with having more ram and a much
>|>   larger HD.
>|> 
>    I disagree with both of you.  I would not say that the graphics of the
>amiga are "substandard" with today standards. I think it competes ok.  Consider
>that the SVGA standard has a 18-bit palette (256k colors) and not a 24-bit
>palette which is what the A4000 has.

	I have a couple Amiga dealers in my area, both are selling the A4000
   for $3275 without monitor.  Tack on another $500 for the monitor and the
   system is selling for almost $3800.  That to me is the problem, the cost.
   The chipset competes just fine, but the system cost of the A4000 with 
   6 meg of ram and a 120 ( or whatever ) meg HD is what doesn't compete.


>    As for you, G. Greene, consider that that "nice" (ok, is nice, I admit it)
>ATI ultra local bus card CAN'T ANIMATE IN 256k colors OUT OF 16.6 million (24
>bit) which is exactly what the A4000 can do.

	Are we talking about the same ATI Ultra Pro card?  The specs someone
   gave on the PC newsgroups say it can do 800x600x24bit and 1024x768x16bit.

							G.Greene

>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>          // 
>  Raist \X/  Amiga 500, 38Mhz Special MegaMidget Racer
>             Avid user of AmigaVision 
>             Sending mail from Mayaguez, Puerto Rico
>---------
>           "If the PC or Mac continues to be the standard,
>            the SkyNet will never be built." - my words
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Its a sad sad day...
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:06:49 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:

: Watch out, though, for Cyrix's "486"-SLC.  How they get off calling this thing
: a 486 is beyond me.  It's just a fast 386SX, complete with 16-bit data bus.  I

Oh? It's fully software compatible with Intel 486's. Also it has
internal cache as 486's (however a smaller one).

: didn't realise until someone at work wanted to know if they should buy this
: "486" system at an amazing low price, so I did some checking.  At least AMD
: call their 386 clones "386"'s.  So it's easy to get confused out in X86 land.

You ignore the fact that Cyrix 486-clones are really 486-clones and
not 386-clones liek the AMD-ones.

-- 
Jarkko Lindblad         | Those people who tell you not to
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi |   take chances
------------------------| they are all missing on what life is about
This space if for sale  |                        - Metallica
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: 22black@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Martin E. Black)
Subject: Re: A Commodore Engineer speaks out.
Keywords: Reverse Enginneering AGA - can it be done?
Organization: Western Michigan Univ. Comp. Sci. Dept.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 18:13:01 GMT

nwickham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Neal Wickham) writes:

>Apple is after the multimedia market.

Oh yeah, what a threat. before the do that don't they think they should 
atleast have their top of the line model Quadra be able to animate.  In 
which for what i have seen is non-existant.


>So... I'd say that the EASY and SLICK to use software advantage Apple once
>had is evaporating.  Microsoft is going to ensure that Mac does not
>penetrate the business market much more than they have now.  Apple, in turn
>is looking at special nich markets like the remote computing thing. (This
>is an in depth analysis on my part. :)  And since C= sells PCs, it will be
>good if Mac loses market share to PCs in the business market.


>Anyway... I hope C= continues to go after the multimedia market.  It sounds
>like Apple is wanting it bad but does not really have the system for it. 
>Things don't look so rosy for Apple IMHO.  They are going to sink all the
>money they've made in past years in chasing a bunch of "maybe" nich
>markets.  

>I also hope C= pounds away at the home/entertainment market also.  (This
>may be a biased opinion however.)

>As far as the A600 goes... what scares me is that Amiga is going to get
>even more strongly identified as a low-end kids/game machine.  It is bad
>enough as it is.  I think C= marketing ought to make a clear distiction
>between the A600 and the new AGA machines.  Call the 32-bit Amigas Amiga
>IIs or something.  A4000/040 is not enough.  A clear distinction needs to
>be communicated and then the A600 can be the little money maker they want
>and not hurt the higher end market.  DID ANYONE IN THE C= MARKETING
>DEPARTMENT HEAR THAT????  MAKE A CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE A600 AND THE
>HIGHER END MACHINES!!!!!  GIVE THE NEW MACHINES A NEW NAME!!! ...AMIGA II
>or AMIGA 32 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT!!!!  (Geese!)

I second that, i thought they should call the aga machines the amiga II also.
If not for separation for game machine or not, but because then there would
probably be better software support.

>I played with a 4000 this week.  What struck me most was that even regular
>HAM looked better than 256 colors while in high res mode.  (And boy could
>that thing convert pictures fast!)  HAM and HAM8 are great little systems
>that have great potential in entertainment and multimedia and elswhere.



>                                     NCW

Martin


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Subject: Re: So what I'd really like to know is...
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:37:18 GMT

In article <Les_Jenkins.05n6@lppl.mi.org> Les_Jenkins@lppl.mi.org (Les Jenkins) writes:

>Anyways, putting all arguments about the new chipset aside for the moment,
>what I'd like to know is: Are we going to see any lower-end machines around
>the $1000 range that will possess the new AGA chipset or will all the
>machines with it be in the $3000 range?

From all accounts, all new machines (with the exception of the A600) will be
equipped with AGA chipsets. According to CBM Canada, two new platforms will
be released before Christmas. If we can give the initial response to the
Robinson article any merit, COMDEX would be a reasonable bet for release.
From: Harv@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga World's Worst Review EVER!!
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 08:57:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>
>AW generally is quite dated when compared to competitors like AC, which is
>produced independently and more capable of including detailed up-to-date
>coverage. I would expect the December issue of AW to include additional
>information and a summary of the WOC exhibits.
> 

Produced "independently"? Heh... as though, what, Amiga World is
produced by the Amiga Magazine Division of the U.S. Dept. of Commerce?
People love to bash AW but most AW bashers don't have a clue as to
what actually goes into the production of a monthly magazine. 

Harv
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Four Thousand Raisins... unclothed!
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:59:58 GMT
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <1992Oct7.032529.16843@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@csws20.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
>In article <9747@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>
>>But "Amiga" has also one big advantage: It comes very early in the
>>alphabet! No kidding, this *is* an issue: In all lists that are in
>>alphabetical order (telephone books!), the word Amiga comes before 
>>Apple or IBM. Now I really come to think why IBM chose the name 
>>"Ambra" (or so). Perhaps because it is even earlier in the alphabet 
>>than "Amiga"???
>>
>>Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
>>Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
>
>	Here in the United States, many companies take advantage of this. 
>When I look through the phone book I see lots of lists like:
>
>	AAA Auto
>	AA Autos
>	AWESOME Autos
>	A1 Autos
>	AZ Auto Repair
>	etc.
>
>
>-- 
>      Amiga Graphics Association BBS (516) 473-6351  24 HRS, 14.4k baud
>   RayTraces - 3D Objects - Music Modules - Sound Samples - Scalable Fonts
>   David Tiberio - Total Productions         Coming Soon: USENET and EMAIL

Anyone remember the vaporware Atari Abaq?  It was too be a nice little
Transputer workstation, except for the fact that the front end was to
be an Atari ST.  I remember the Atari folks being excited that Abaq 
would come before Amiga.  Atari was also rumored to be developing some
sort of clones to be called ABC's (Atari Business Computers).

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Struggling computer science student needs a free A4000.
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:38:25 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <35676@cbmvax.commodore.com>, chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green) writes:
> 	If you turn on a setting in prefernces, most applications which
> open normal 640x400 lace screens will automagically end up in 640x400
> non-flickering screens.

	I have seen these settings now and will experiment some more.  
	Thanks.
> 
> 
>>	I am disapointed that the hires|lace mode flickers but I like 
>>	the productivity enhancements.  Are the 3.0 includes to access
>>	the new modes available to non developers? Commodore?
> 
> 	The "new" 640x480 mode is nothing new. It's just the ECS productivity
> mode from 2.0, except that it has none of the drawbacks (limited colors,
> slow speed) that ECS made it have. And of course if has a max depth of 8
> instead of 2. All that is required is 2.0 documentation and includes.

	Thanks.  I guess its 'back to the manuals' time.  But what do
	you do about GetRGB4()/SetRGB4()/LoadRGB4() commands?  Are these
	compatible with the 8 bit modes?

	I apologize in advance if these are elemntary questions and are
	boring the pants off anybody.  Unfortunatly I have not upgraded
	my programming to 2.0 style yet (Shame on Me!)

> 
> 
> -- 
> *-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
> |Chris Green - Graphics Software Engineer   - chrisg@commodore.COM      f
> |                  Commodore-Amiga          - uunet!cbmvax!chrisg       n
> |My opinions are my own, and do not         - icantforgettheimpression  o
> |necessarily represent those of my employer.- youmadeyouleftaholeinthe  r
> |"A screaming comes across the sky..."      - backofmyhead              d
> *-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **
From: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: MIPS vs. dhrystones?
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:22:06 GMT
Reply-To: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren)
Organization: THULOS!, STROMSTAD, SWEDEN
OD-Comment-To: Jarkko_Lindblad


 JL> Dhrystones are no good for numerous reasons - as well as most (all)
 JL> other benchmarks too, for comparing _CPU_ performance - there are too
 JL> many factors to take care of.

At least it's BETTER than those silly Misleading Information about ProcessorS
figures that many companies boasts about. Nothing's perfect, but the generic
dhrystone test seems to be adequate, when big magazines such as BYTE uses it
in their computer comparisons, it can't be completely useless...



  InterNET/BadNET: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (92:901/603.1)
          FidoNET: Hogen BBS, 2:203/511.7@fidonet
   /  /
  /--/
 /  /B - I No need no steenkin' .SIG!

--- Point Manager 3.00 Beta Unreg.
From: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Its a sad sad day...
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:36:31 GMT
Reply-To: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren)
Organization: THULOS!, STROMSTAD, SWEDEN
OD-Comment-To: Stephenson_Daniel_A


 SD> >In Windoze - most things are "intensive" (like moving the mouse)...
     < Stuff deleted ... >
 SD> Give me a break.  You write as if Windows is slow on a 386!

But it IS slow! Haven't you NOTICED?

 SD> Windows 3.1 is pretty fast on all the systems sold remotely recently.

It OUGHT to be! FAST (33MHz 3/486DXs) are pretty cheap and popular nowdays,
but I still think that there's a noticeable lag in everything you do. Maybe
that has something to do with that the machines I've tested Windoze on only
has ordinary VGA/SVGA cards, without any kind of graphics accelerator.


 SD> All I was pointing out was that there were ZERO hassle in upgrading CPUs.

So what? Isn't this how things SHOULD be? Is it something to boast about?

 SD> Keep in mind here that there is no slot taken up, no especial room needed

But then, it's just the CPU you upgrade. On the Amiga, recent CPU accelerators
features not only a fast CPU and many megs of fast RAM expansion, but SCSI-2
harddisk controllers, and parallel/serial connectors. I'd like to see that be
done with your Intel Overdrive socket...!

 SD> just buy the actually CPU itself and drop it in....simple.

"Actually CPU"? :) Yes, quite simple. About as simple as slotting in a card
and tightening a fastening screw...

 SD> *I* think this is very slick.

But limited. The CPU won't run at maximum performance in many configurations,
so much of the upgrade would be wasted! Not so in the Amiga environment!

 SD> Windows is/will be so big for some of the same reasons OS/2 2.0 and UNIX
 SD> can be so big - there is a shitload that comes with it.

How many users actually NEEDS 60 megs of Windows NT? OK, so you don't need a
full installation, but what does all those megs contain?


  InterNET/BadNET: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (92:901/603.1)
          FidoNET: Hogen BBS, 2:203/511.7@fidonet
   /  /
  /--/
 /  /B - This is a space allocated for useless messages.

--- Point Manager 3.00 Beta Unreg.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re: A4000, A Marketable Machine?
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 06:52:49 GMT

>   While I sympathize with you on SCSI, I also believe that there was more NEED
>(not simply desire) for more colors and a complete machine that costs less than
>what the A3000 used to go for. Ask anyone that does video work or games for a
>living, and they'll probably tell you the one thing they hated the most about
>the Amiga until recently was the lack of colors in high resolutions. The next
>thing on their list would almost certainly be cost - it (was) too expensive to
>make it a consumer-priced machine. The A4000 addressed both of these problems.


	The A4000 certainly addresses the need for more colors in higher
   resolutions, but does nothing to address the cost problem.  The A4000 +
   monitor, selling for around $3500 is NOT a consumer-priced machine.  When
   the heck is Commodore going to release a mid range machine??  Hopefully
   not overpricing it like so many of there other Amiga systems, including
   the A4000.

							G.Greene


>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                   BIX: ggiles 
>All opinions expressed are my own.            Internet: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu
>Amiga, MSDOS CDROM, Sega CD                   > Go Braves! Pirates must die! < 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: derek@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Subject: Re: Amiga Blitter 40% slower than Atari Blitter (???)
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:37:33 GMT

In article <J2RJsB9w165w@bugend.edvina.se> ralph@bugend.edvina.se (Staffan Vilcans) writes:
>eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story) writes:
>
>> >   And please trim your signature to five lines or less.  I am not impressed
>> >with your ability to scan an image and run a bitmap-to-ascii utility on it.
>> 
>> F**k off... It looks cool.. I'm not particularly impressed with your try
>> at humor below.. it's stupid.. get rid of it.
>
>Yes, Marc, there are obviously a lot of people out there that like my 
>sig. You are the only person that I have heard complaining. And I don't 
>think its length is a big problem, it's not that much bigger than an 
>average sig. Why not go and argue with people who quote far to much 
>instead?

True. I really like your .sig too. I think MB is just shaking when he sees
the word Amiga? I wish news reader could read news loudly - I think MB would
not be able to listen to the title of the group (it contains this dreaded
aaaaammmmmiiiiggggaaaa word :-) and might be this would finally turn him
off from posting to amiga groups. Also I think he has Macintosh now. In some
of his postings he said something like " on my Macintosh...".
This would explain his complex.

>
>              _#      **MMp     g#00   `N##0"    _agN#0P0N#           _#L
>             g##       jN##    j##F     J##    _dN0"      "          g##L
>           _#]##      _0 ##L  jN##F     ###   g#0"                 _03##L
>          gE_j##      #  0## jF ##F    j##F  j##     ______       gE_j##L
>        _0"""N##     d"  J##L0  ##F    0##   0##     "9##F"     _0"""5##L
>      _gF    ]##    jF    ##0   ##F    ##F   `##k     d##     _gF    j##L
>    _g#_    _j##L__g#__   ]N  _j##L_ _d##L_   `#Nh___g#N'   _g#_    _j##L_
>   `""""    """""'""""'    "  """""" """"""      """""""   `""""    """"""

Regards,

Dariusz Bolski
From: Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A-MaxII+ ?
Distribution: world
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:12:35 EDT
Organization: Amiga Colony BBS

re article by Evan Torrie: Apple no longer makes 68000 machines? --oh,
right, SONY makes the PowerBooks......  but aren't there those integral
CD-ROM machines [it's merely 1.5 years after CDTV hit the retail shelves,
and Apple's competitor isn't on the shelf yet.... hey Marc, looks like
Commodore beat Apple into a market segment!!!!!! For everything claimed
about Newton and Macs with built-in CD-ROM drives aimed at the consumer
market and with I think only 68000s inside,  Apple has yet to get one on a
retail shelf.....] supposed to be 68000-based, not '030 or '040 or even
'020 based?!


-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope)
Subject: Re: 2MEG CHIP RAM (a problem?)
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 03:57:36 GMT

kevint@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Kevin Taddeucci) writes:

> 
> JUST CURIOUS, WHAT CAN WINDOWS 3.1 DO IN 6MEGS OF MEMORY. (Virtual 
> memory does not count, it's to slow.) (I know different subject but I 
> could not resist.) 
> 

With the amount of windowing stuff you had running you really should lop off
the 2 megs of chip ram and call it 4 Megs.  Now, with 4 megs running WIndows
on a 486 you might JUST be able to sneak in a small compile with something else
"running" as well.  I have yet to run out of ram when programming using a 
similar A3000 with 6 megs of ram, 2 of which is used up before I get to a shell
:-).  Then I copy the includes to ram:, make lattice resident and still have
mucho ram left to work in.  Windows really is a pig....

>      | Kevin J. Taddeucci          | e-mail: kevint@hpsad.sad.hp.com    |

--
copes@cs.curtin.edu.au

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy