HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Heraldic questions...
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:02:28

 In a message to All, David Greenebaum wrote:
 DG> Hello from Bjalfi!

 DG> We're not talking about eliminating conflict-checking, we're
 DG> talking about eliminating the _requirement_ that individual
 DG> kingdoms' colleges of arms protect against conflicts in
 DG> other kingdoms.  My guess is that (at least) half the
 DG> kingdoms will set up colleges of arms in which the conflict
 DG> rules are just as strict as the current ones.  (It's less
 DG> work for those who write the rules, after all.)

    You want strict? Heh heh heh ... come to Ansteorra under the above 

    system and I'll show you the *Platonic ideal* of "strict" brought to 

    earth....


    To quote a character from an extremely post-Period light opera: "The 

    prospect is Elysian..."


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Subject: Re:Fighting in crown:a thought
Originator: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au
Reply-To: colin@ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)
Organization: IPS Radio and Space Services.  Sydney, Australia.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:37:59 GMT

nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
>royalty to non-fighting couples?

Why not? There are many people who would make great monarchs but 
either don't fight or are not good fighters. Being able to pound
people harder than anyone else does not guarantee any other skills.
Would you have Mike Tyson for president? (Yes! say the jocks :-) )

Of course it's terribly un-mediaeval to fight to put ones king on
the throne :-) :-)


Juan - hoping for (but not expecting) a little change in the SCA.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:12:55 GMT


Greetings to all, from Vajk!

The recent thread about firearms in the SCA, and at events, 
caught my attention.  Someone asked why firearms make some
people uneasy.

I live in a town of about 96,000.  Over the last three years, we
have had more than 50 homicides per year, including one year
with about 70 (we had had only 19 the year before).

Regardless of the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
argument, the fact that about (more than?) 1 in 2000 people
in my home town were killed with guns each year for the past 
three years makes people here uneasy.  My town has a reputation
for violence.

Think of this:  If 1 in 2000 SCA-folk were murdered each year,
how many would that be?   An alarming number, but such a rate
occurs here.  To bring a gun, openly, to an SCA event here
would be to invite repression of the SCA for years to come.
As if we didn't have enough troubles already.  And the SCA
certainly has its share of loonies, or perhaps more than its
share.

I do agree that local conditions should play a large part
in the decision to allow/ban firearms at a particular event.

Vajk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: period firearms
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:56:19 GMT

In <9212301802.AA04380@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:

Good morn, Tio dell'abaco!

>Also, what would the purpose be of introducing them?  Demos are one
>thing, but if they were to become another martial art, like archery,
>the safety issue would be extremely important; also, I would imagine
>that there would have to be extremely high standards for
>authorization; many burst barrels were the results of putting too much
>gunpowder into the gun.

	Indeed.  I do not see it as being an incredibly popular sport
in the Society.  I merely think it a period sport that, if interest is
shown, may be included at individual events.  How best to keep it a
safe and reasonably authentic sport is a very tough question.

>One more factor: where are we going to get functional period firearms?
>I do not know of any company that manufactures them, although I'm sure
>they exist for the appropriate price.  If SCA smiths took to making
>them, they would have to worry about the legal implications of
>manufacturing a possibly dangerous product, etc.  

	A local member has a videotape of a period firearms maker
located in some tourist trap designed to simulate an early American
Revolutionary War Town.  The video shows a muzzle-loading rifle being
made entirely from scratch, starting only with raw iron, brass, and some
wood.  At no time is anything bought that isn't in a raw state.  The
bits used in rifling the barrel are even made by hand!  I shall attempt
to find more information on this person, but certainly these firearms
can be bought and are quite period in technique.  A custom order for
a particular style can easily make it a period piece.

	However, I'm still leery of them, as I am any firearm not
made with components I know and trust.  Steel is steel, whether
made in a coal-fired forge or a modern arc furnace.  This may be
taking authenticity too far to demand a true period piece.  On the
other hand, cartridges are right out.  Where to draw the line?
  
	Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:01:04 -0500

In article <7861@monmouth.edu> c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:
>
>	I believe that matchlocks preceeded wheellocks.  Somethings tells me
>that cannon preceeded handguns, also.

Early 16th century cannon are hard to tell from early 19th century cannon,
if you look at bronze naval weapons.

There is also some evidence that the flintlock was invented before 1600.

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov)
Subject: change of address
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:19:41 GMT

Unto all who read these words, happy
Hannukah from Yaakov

Due to various upgrades here at B.U., my
net address is changing.  as of Dec 31,
my address will be hjfeld@acs.bu.edu
This address is active now, so anyone
who want to send me stuff can reach me there.

In Service,
Yaakov
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: German heraldry
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 05:48:50 GMT

In article <725664278.F00003@ocitor.fidonet> Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

>       BTW, would you mind quoting a specific example of a 
> blazon which has the problem you speak of? (German described in multi-
> word string).

The most striking, of course, is the Nesselblatt (f. eg. in the arms of the
counts of Holstein, I won't try to translate it into Old French). There are
also a lot of more, such as Stufenschnitt (a form of an assymmetrical
partition line), quartering per fylfot (arms of Cottendorf), Kraenzla
(arms of the dukes of Sachsen) etc.

Alfonso Henriques de Montoya, known mundanely as


--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 28 Dec 92 19:55:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Dec28.104827.9784@ac.dal.ca> sinister@ac.dal.ca writes:
>	I am wondering... does anyone have a "Period Calendar", as
>it were, covering the popular Holidays/Observances/NoteableTime
>Bits of Period?  I keep seeing posts ended with things like
>"Written the 3rd Day before Michealmas";  it would be interesting
>to have a list for things like dating scrolls and missives.
	My mother grew up Catholic and I have an old book of saints days
of hers (In German). Of course it has saints made since the end of our 
period, but most of them are pretty old. It's arranged by calendar day with
a page about the feast or saint's days that fall on that day.
	I also remember reading a similar period book for a history class -
I was amused to discover that I was born on the feast of the Circumcision
(the eighth day after Christmas ;)  
	Check out your local religious bookstore.
				-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:16:21 GMT

In article <1h8jduINN75q@agate.berkeley.edu> dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum) writes:
>>>>I, myself, aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
>>>>I have no desire to become king.
>>>So why do you aspire to fight in Crown?
>>>Aryk
>>	The Crowne Lists represents the epitome of fighting skill.  To be 
>>recommended to fight at Crown is a high honour, indeed.  It is a goal for which
>>to strive.
>
>I sense a spate of Interkingdom Anthropology coming on...

Probably....

It appears to be the difference between 'Invitational' and 'Open'
Crown Lists.

I suspect that some of the Western practices are in lieu of a formal
recognition of fighting skill between novice and Knight.  We have no
formal intermediate level of recognition.  *Informally* we have
various Princess' Escorts, the Queen's Guard, and the selection of
unbelted fighters in the Crown Lists who are moved 'across' to join
the belted fighters prior to making the first match ups (which is done
by challenge).  Then there's that perrenial title that tells you the
unbelted fighter is getting pretty good....  Viscount....  (We've had a
run of five successive unbelted Princes between the Mists and Cynagua.
It will be interesting to see what happens this spring....)

I have no doubt this has been discussed before, but given the
constant flux of folk discussing things upon this extensive brdige, I
think it bears stating again.  The West has a minimal set of rules for
entry to the Crown list and it is custom that every fighter who thinks
he or she could *possibly* carry out the duties (and meets the minimal
requirements) enters the lists.  What I don't think has been stated
goes back the original SCA creation of the title "Duke."  This was
done to provide an honorable way for the best fighters who *could* win,
*not* to fight--and thus be 'stuck' with being king time after time.
The expectation then (as now) is that *every* fighter wants to win.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Date: 30 Dec 1992 00:16:24 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <9212290312.aa25397@mc.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:

[article on Midrealm Crown Invitational deleted for bandwidth]

The following post is from my Khan, Bagshi, as he sits reading the Rialto
over my shoulder.

Corun

========================================================================

To Graydon,

As per your article, were you around for "Boarshaven?" Let us not deny, that
an unfiltered system allows for "interesting" variety. However, a filtered
system allows for a basic monoculture of likemindedness. Quite simply, I
find that monoculture, quite boring. Most kingdoms use an open list, and in 
the long run it seems to work for them. People have to try harder to excel,
and isn't that what we're about? Let us not deny, there are "naturals" out
there, and when you use a filter system, you'll never discover them.

Bagshi, Kakhan of the Dark Horde Moritu


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |	Avid readers make novel lovers.
    Moritu by choice   |
From: Riki.Beth.Stein@f906.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Riki Beth Stein)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Translation speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:21:04 -0500

And then David Director Friedman said...
 DDF> the most important. I do not know what a good Arabic term for "King"
 DDF> would be. "Malek," I believe, literally means "King" (I donUt speak
 DDF> Arabic, unfortunately), but I think it is usually used as one of the
 DDF> terms for God. "Caliph" 

I wouldn't be surprised if "Malek" literally translated meant "King," as
it seems to be a cognate of the Hebrew word "Melech," which *does* mean
King.  As for its use as a term for God, you would know far better than I.

I have a VERY limited Hebrew vocabulary, but sometimes it's useful.

-Riki

... Set laser printer on 'stun', Mr. Sulu.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: leeu@nobeltech.se (Leif Euren)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Non-fighting royalty (Was: Fighting in crown: a thought)
Date: 30 Dec 92 08:22:54 GMT
Organization: NobelTech AB

Juan (colin@ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile)) writes:
> Allowing non fighters to become royalty won't stop dumb decisions,
> but should allow better informed decisions in non fighting areas.

I agree.  Futhermore, for a fighter to enter a list as champion for
couple, _three_ people has to agree, not just two.  I think that alone
should stop several unsuitable rulers-wannabes (though not all).

	your humble servant
	Peder Klingrode

  Herr Peder Klingrode                    | Leif Euren    Stockholm, Sweden
  Holmgard, Nordmark, Drachenwald, East   | leeu@nobeltech.se
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sommerfeld@apollo.hp.com (Bill Sommerfeld)
Subject: Re: Is the Rialto censored?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:49:39 GMT
	<1992Dec22.184745.23651@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
Organization: Hewlett Packard

In article <1992Dec22.184745.23651@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

   Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Path: apollo.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!pacbell.com!pbhya!whheydt
   From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
   Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
   Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
   Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:47:45 GMT
   References: <MAILQUEUE-101.921222105332.576@saturn.uark.edu>
   Lines: 22

   In article <MAILQUEUE-101.921222105332.576@saturn.uark.edu> PAULB@saturn.uark.EDU ("Paul A. Byers") writes:
   >I sent a post responding to Sir John Theophilous about Calontir
   >shields. It also mentioned that I have noticed lots of Racism and
   >Sexism in the SCA. (almost exclusivly against White males.) and the
   >poist just seems to have vanished. I post a 'hello, anyone hear me.'
   >and I get 13 replys in 2 hours. What gives. Is the Rialto gone PC?

   To the best of my kowledge there is no way to effectively censor the
   net.  

Well, actually, if you're reading this on the USENET side of the
rialto (rec.org.sca), it *is* possible for a user to "cancel" a
posting they sent out, which means that it will be deleted on *most*
of the systems when the "cancel" message catches up to the original
one.  It's also possible for someone else to do this, although it is
considered very bad manners to do so.  (USENET is an anarchy; there
are no rules, only conventions and tradition).

   Having said that, let me note that every message is subject to
   the vagaries of an uncontrolled network run by a myriad of entities.
   A single failure point could produce the same effect for a period of
   time.

And there was just such a single point of failure most of last week
(it's been fixed, but things are running little behind at the moment;
they should be caught up in a day or two).

					- Bill
From: awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr)
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 17:23:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.162934.22106@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <725767220.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>>jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writeth:
>>
>> JWW> Remember that, no matter the time of year, there are twelve equal hours
>> JWW> of day and twelve of night; so that in winter day hours are much shorter
>> JWW> than night hours.
>>
>>3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that would take
>>this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?
                                   ^^^^^
>
>Yup.  A sundial.  It was the development of mechanical clocks that
>changed things--eventually--to an all-hours-are-equal system.
>Remember that most of history is before mechanical clocks.

...OK, I've seen the answer of 'sundial' a couple of times now.  But
as far as I know of, it does *not* answer the question.  A sundial
*will* self-adjust to the streaching and shrinking of *days*, but I
don't think that I've ever seen one that would adjust the day into
**12 equal hours**.   Does this type of sundial exist?

Aldric MacGlynn



-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:01:08 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  William gnashed:

> It occurs to me that these discussions always center on details in the
> SCA game...  The chief obstacle is the SCA system, the way our group is
> organized.

That's a good observation; our system is indeed almost uniformly
inauthentic.  However, I think your commentary reveals that your approach
to the game is quite different from the average SCAdian participant, at
least in the parts of the Society where I've travelled.  By and large, we
are not trying to maintain a medieval system, we are trying to create a
medieval atmosphere.  Many of us would be happier if the system we happen
to be using were more authentic in its titles, rewards, etc., but I think
that most of us simply don't care enough to do anything about it.  Most
SCAfolk focus on their own work, their own crafts, and their immediate
surroundings.  As long as they feel that those things create a pleasant
medieval atmosphere, they are content and feel that they are contributing
to the Society.  How the king is selected, or how he rewards his subjects,
or how the local baron relates to the crown rarely effects them.  On the
other hand, if someone starts coming to local events in gold lame' wizard's
robes and plastic elf-ears, it effects them immediately.  If someone shows
up at their tourney in pickle-barrel plastic armor, it ruins the atmosphere
immediately.

Even the more learned SCAfolk operate on essentially the same principle.
When Emperor Justin sees someone dancing a mdoern dance, he finds it
irksome because it ruins his personal medieval environment.  It is only his
specialized knowledge that make it irksome, but there are a lot of us who
have specialized knowledge of one kind or another and are therefore irked
by something or other.  That's why I try to avoid inauthentic equipage at
events: Any modern item I bring is probably going to disturb the atmosphere
for someone.

For me, those two principles probably define what I try to do at events: I
try, through my own efforts, to enhance the medieval atmosphere for myself
and anyone else who cares to enjoy what I do, and I do my best to avoid the
game that other people are playing.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions... 
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 00:41:06 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

In article <725248234.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org 
writes: 
  > Because this *isn't* Hungary, this is Ansteorra, or the East, or wherever;  
  > in essence, because this isn't Hungary, it's the SCA, and the SCA (like  
  > Hungary and every other mundane jurisdiction) has developed its own  
  > more-or-less consistent style that doesn't include everything that  
  > everyone else is doing. Neither Lyon nor Garter would grant a green mount  
  > on a blue field, even to a Hungarian.
    [...]
  > Our period deals with "Western Europe"...

Gentle lord, may I take your last point first:

   "The Society is based on the landed nobility of the European Middle Ages 
    and Renaissance"  (_The Society for Creative Anachronism Organisational 
    Handbook_ (Oct 89), "Scope of the Society", p. 74). 

I believe the other statement of scope mentions "Western Civilisation".  
Neither of these, good my lord, makes mention of "Western Europe" and it is a 
cause of quite some concern to me that you seem determined to apply your 
personal preference of the confines of period, which you state as:

  > [south of the Trent, north of the Loire, west of the Rhine, 1100-1400, is  
  > Tadhg's preference.... if you want to be precise.],

to the entirity of the Society's heraldry.

Indeed, SCA heraldry is SCA heraldry, but surely the realm of possible SCA 
armory should at least contain the body of heraldry from the times and places 
of the SCA's period.  If there is, as you seem to suggest, no point of 
contact between Society heraldry and actual historical heraldry from period, 
why don't we just go the whole hog and create an heraldic corpus with our own 
creatively anachronistic charges? 

My lord, it appears that you wish to apply the strictures of modern English 
heraldry to a limited range of mostly French and English medieval heraldic 
possibilities.  Must we have the worst of both worlds?

Pagan le Chaunster
Who rather likes seeblatten, and realises the CoA has recognised them for 
some time.
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca