HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtpins@icaen.uiowa.edu (Michael T Pins)
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:20:43 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19

rehrauer@apollo.hp.com (Steve Rehrauer) writes:

>In article <93008.084819PAACC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <PAACC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
->  And come on,how many "home" users (with all the images that brings up) need a
->25MHz 68040 machine?

>Depends on what they want to do, and on what sort of software they want to
>run.  There's never "enough" CPU cycles, memory, disk capacity; software
>(especially GUI versant software) happily soaks it up.

Yep, exactly right.
Ever try running a NeXT that *didn't* have an '040 under the hood?
Ever try running HPVue on anything but a PA-RISC chip with >32 Meg RAM?
 
Before people start saying that "home" users don't need the above, 20 years ago
people said that no one would ever *want* a computer in their home.  15 years
ago no one thought we'd ever need more than 48k RAM in our home computers (and
no one would ever need something as powerful as a 68000).  Like it or not, in
todays world high-powered CPUs are everywhere, and RAM is cheap.  With the
spread of X (and like it or not, it's here to stay) both are becoming required.
How many "home" users need an '040 in their Amiga today?  Probably not many.
How many will 2 years from now?  Probably most of them.

-- 
*****************************************************************************
* Michael Pins                |   Internet: amigapd@isca.uiowa.edu          *
* ISCA's Amiga Librarian      |         #include <std.disclaimer>           *
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: emcoop@bnr.ca (hume smith)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:58:50 GMT

In article <6FX7wB2w165w@lakes.trenton.sc.us> mr_scary@lakes.trenton.sc.us (Chris Hurley) writes:

   papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:

   > IBM was singletasking in 1981, when Apple was single tasking, before
   > Commodore was single tasking etc.  The reason they didn't start out
   > with a multitasking operating system is because with 64k of ram, you
   > can't load two useful programs, plus a multitasking operating system.

   You are quite incorrect.  Commodore was easily single-tasking in 1981 
   (consider the Vic-20 or prior to that the PETs etc...)

and that was single-tasking with screen editing and a multi-device
interface port built to a standard (well almost to) used by such
nobodies as Tektronics and Hewlett Packard.  you still don't get
that with PCs or Macs (AppleTalk was apple's own, not an existing
standard).

new group - comp.sys.pet.advocacy :-)

i kind of regret that the Amiga had to made concessions to PCs like the
parallel and serial ports and STILL lags in the market.  sigh.
--
Hume Smith
hume.smith@acadiau.ca
emcoop@bnr.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 6 Jan 93 11:53:24 GMT
Organization: DreamStates BBS & CyberNet HQ in G'ville, FL   1-904-331-4317

In a message dated Tue  5 Jan 93 13:41, Das9674@usl.edu (stephenson Daniel 
wrote:

 DD> I have come to the conclusion that the Amiga, while having a nice OS,
 DD> often does NOT have a consistant interface.  They often seem little
 DD> better than a MSDOS-written GUI-on-the-fly.

I'd agree with you under WB1.3.  However, the interface is more consistent
under 2.04 and up.

>Before Windows 3.1, my 386 PC was a bit slower in window updates.  With
3.1,
>however, it became noticeably faster.  No, I'm not talking about screens,
just windows.

 DD> OS/2 has pretty fast windowing, too.  

Er.  I disagree.  Perhaps merely because the machine I tried out OS/2 on
was slow or something. It was a high speed 386 system and OS/2 was just too
damn slow for my patience.  My Amiga spoils me. :)

-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

* IF replying by MAIL, please reply to the addresses listed below...
--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
/_/  \  DreamStates BBS                    or: dream!Ray_Hines@ufl.edu
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 \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32595 comp.sys.amiga.graphics:8368
From: pmancini@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Peter Mancini)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Subject: Re: VistaPro & clones
Date: 4 Jan 93 20:56:10 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA


	Harv, your method works fine on "Groups", but does not actually
'delete' the files off of the hard disk.  I use windows 3.1 at work (and
am typing in this message under it) and I can say without at doubt that
deleteing directories that have files and subdirectories beneath them
is a terrible bother.  I'm not going to bother to ask purchasing to
shell $99 for the program, however, as I believe now that it is out
someone will develop a PD version... I hope!

	--Pete
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche)
Subject: Re: 1200/4000 pricing
Organization: MetaPro Systems, Perth, Western Australia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 07:56:51 GMT

In <Darren_Spencer.06po@guru.apana.org.au>
  Darren_Spencer@guru.apana.org.au (Darren Spencer) writes:

>Is this Power Up deal official?

>Do Non-american commodore users get shafted as usual?

Probably. C= don't even *know* A4000's exist in Australia.

The warranty doesn't cover Amiga 4000 computers. You can't
even register the machine by replying to Lane Cove.

The machine is very nice to use; even if it does look a bit cruddy. :-(

The "Your Warranty is void if this seal is broken" sticker
was broken when I unpacked the machine at home. I've called
the dealer already and it's news to them -- as was the
unexpected arrival of my A4000 in town :-)
-- 
+-----+ Bernd Felsche                     _-,_|\  #include <std/disclaimer.h>
| | | | MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd          /  |   \ bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au
| | | | 328 Albany Highway,              X_.'-._/         Fax: +61 9 472 3337
|m|p|s| Victoria Park, Western Australia 6100  v        Phone: +61 9 362 9355
From: skip@cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:11:12 GMT
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <1ig2veINN5mh@mozz.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>>CORRECTION!  $2700 is more the selling price of the Amiga 4000.  You wanna
>>quote retail prices for the Amiga, then you'd better do the same thing for
>>the compatibles, to be fair.  Naturally, this is what I expected from some
>>Ms-Dog-Head comparing Apples and Oranges. :)
>
>	CORRECTION!  YOU might be able to get an Amiga 4000 for $2700, but 
>   that is not the absolute selling price.  Its $3200 without monitor around 
>   here, $3700 with A1960.  So the other persons prices may be quite accurate
>   I'm afraid.

Why don't you just call Creative Computers and get one?  I paid less than
$2800 before the price cuts and I'd bet that they are even less expensive
now.  It's as easy as calling Gateway 2000...

>							Greg Greene
>                                                        ggg@kepler.unh.edu
>
>>--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
>>/_/  \  DreamStates BBS                    or: dream!Ray_Hines@ufl.edu
>>\ \  /   1-904-331-4317                  UUCP: uflorida!dream!Ray_Hines
>> \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 13:52:36 GMT

In article <mbrown.100q@legend.akron.oh.us> mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us writes:
>Actually with the Advent of OS/2, all the Things we do are new To you. 
>C= has Never pushed the Amigas advantages into the Public mind, and 
>that is were C= Screwed up. But if it wasn't for Commodore and the 
>Amiga, Where do you truthfully think the IBM market would Be now? In 

Give me a bfeak.  Let's not forget who wrote OS/2.  IBM.  THEY invented
REXX.  THEY were multitasking before you were born.  So what in OS/2
was "ripped off" of the Amiga?


>get a 486 with 2 megs of ram and HD controller for 350 bucks(the Amiga 
>486 bridge board is around 1K) Compatibility problems?, not one hell 
>of a whole lot from what I have Heard. The Brigde board is nice for 
>some things though.
>    <Mark

Why, can you get a 68040 with 2MB of ram and a hd controller for
$350.00?
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Date: Mon,  4 Jan 93 15:16:11 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>Alas I think there is no way Commodore can compete with that.  Even
>though Commodore clearly has a better, more powerful system, quality
>does *not* sell computers.  Price sells computers.

That's not entirely true. Get the street price on a 4000, and then
find a comparably equipped Mac. The Mac is considerably more
expensive, and yet it sells well.

The secret? Market perception. Its the reason why people will
pay a premium for a Honda with the label "Acura".

Interestingly, the local dealer tells me he sold right out of
his initial shipment of 1200's. He now has a waiting list. Even
more interesting is that about 1/2 the buyers are new Amiga buyers.

They're paying $600 without monitor or HD (with them, its about $1100).
So clearly, people buy on more than price. There's a perception
of value added with an Amiga or Mac.

TomK@cup.portal.com
Tom Krotchko
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:00:23 GMT

In article <Ace.04dx@auilcs0.UUCP> Ace@auilcs0.UUCP (James Knowlton) writes:
>In article <C0BJCq.MK9@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>
>crap deleted...
>
>>    But, all in all, Commodore needs to pay *MUCH* more atrention to the
>> surface details.  As the Macintosh has shown, what's under the surface does
>> not matter as much if the outside looks really good.
>>
>
>Gee, if you say so.  Personally - i like a functional computer better than a
>screenful of niceties. 

   Niceties give you functionality.  For instance, the Amiga lacks a clipboard
with all of the 'niceties' of the Mac clipboard.  So you cannot cut and paste
structured graphics or fonts on an Amiga with all of the ease and
functionality that you can on a Mac.  This is entirely a 'surface' issue on
both systems, and it interferes with functionality on the Amiga.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Douglas Taylor)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: Florida State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:11:30 GMT

In article <C0qsMv.794@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>The A4000 is 68060 and RISC-ready by virtue of the modular CPU slot.
>
>I specifically said "A stock Amiga."  It makes no sense to buy two CPUs
>because C= hasn't got around to supporting the 68060 yet.
>

 An A4000 isn't "stock" to you?  I didn't see him mention any add-ons; in fact,
	nothing is removable fro the A4000 except for the processor.  But, to 
	make your little IBM argument last a bit longer - the A1200!  Even THAT
	has a sllot for CPU replacement (acceleration, and tons of other things)
	and is now the base-line amiga (well, except for that sorry attempt at
	an upgrade, the A600... bleh!).
 Too, you say that "C= hasn't got around to supporting the 68060"; well, neither
	has Apple, nor has NeXT; and, on the less Intel-ligent front, IBM has
	YET to advertise any Pentium compatible machines...
	And it also seems you are laboring under a misconception - the CPU slot
	in the A400 is already filled with the current processor; you remove
	that and replace it with any upgrade... are you saying they are now
	selling IBMs without processors in anticipation of the Pentium?

/============================================================================\
| L. Douglas Taylor InterNet: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu |    IMPORTANT:    |
|=========================================================|   This message   |
| Guildenstern: We cross our bridges when we come to them | has cost the Net |
|   and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our | hundreds, if not |
|   progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a |    thousands,    |
|   presumption that once our eyes watered...             |    of dollars    |
|                                                         |     to send.     |
\============================================================================/

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:48:43 GMT

In article <jprad.726771778@faatcrl> jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov (Jack Radigan) writes:
>>Check your disk labels;  mine say 'Graphical Environment'.  Check
>>the Microsoft manual;  mine say 'graphical environment'.   (I didn't
>>keep the box, so I can't look there)
>
>  The 3.0 release called itself an environment, the 3.1 manuals now proclaim
>it to be an operating system...
>
>  It's still bogus.


	May I ask a question?  

	So what?  It is possible to accomplish more under Windows
	OS or environment, than it is under Amigados.  It has nothing
	to do with the relative quality of either (which favors Amigados
	in everything but DI/RTG, print support, fonts) but rather the
	doors that each offers to the user.

	The Amiga, after all this time, still doesn't offer much at all
	other than nice gfx hardware and a great, efficient OS.  

	Windows offers a slew of fantastic applications.  If users don't
	like it, they can be running something else (Linux, Univel,
	OS/2, DOS, soon--NeXTStep) that offers what they want.  

>
>  -jack-


-- 
      Blaming "society" for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
 ---  boycott == coercion == censorship == closed mindedness == cowardice  ---
	      "Psalms 23:1  The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."  
		Shepherds are for sheep.   -----      Pain teaches.
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:50:30 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan6.145700.20413@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>VM introduces the penalty associated with passing all addresses references
>through the MMU, which is insignificant on a decent system.

Not entirely true.  While you're correct about the address references
with the MMU being insignificant on 030 and 040 systems, the MMU
doesn't cache the entire mmu table.  There is still a cost in the
"page checking" stuff when the page you want is outside of cache, and
that's MORE memory accesses.

>Untrue.  Let's look at two systems.  System A has 8MB RAM.  System B has
>8MB RAM + VM.  You need to run two CPU-intensive applications.  Each
>application's image size is 5MB.  Each application's CPU-intensive working
>set size is 2MB.  System A *cannot* multitask the two applications -- you
>must run them sequentially.  System B *may* swap a bit initially, but it
>will eventually reach a state where both applications are running smoothly,
>*without* swapping.  This is an example of VM increasing performance and
>productivity.

A _BIT_?  It will very likely swap a LOT, unless the application's
average code area exists in a few pages, and nothing else in the image
is used very often.  And let's say that you do something global on
that 2mb of data, probably some of which is out of memory.  swap...
swap...  swap...  swap...  swap...

>There it is again.  Both you and Greg keep whining about minimum
>RAM configurations.  What does this have to do with whether or not VM
>is useful?  I never said that VM is better than RAM; I said that VM is
>better than no VM.  Get the difference?

Again, that's an opinion.  VM is always a performance hit, and if you
need the performance, then VM is out on its ear.

Get the difference?

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: New Internet BBS needs advocates.. :)
From: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Psigon Matrix....do you DOUBT us??)
Date: 6 Jan 93 13:34:05 -0600
Reply-To: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

If you have some time come check out the
new BBS at

tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
134.29.33.14

login as:  BBS

We even have a amiga section:  MicroComputers/Amiga


have fun


Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screeeemmmmmin fast 4000/040..YEEEEEEHA!!          X-ASOCC (CBM Blew that one)
          Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
  -----(612) 656-9693--                         MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
      We're almost done with the Cray module for the EmPlanT.  :) heh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gregg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (gregg.g.wonderly)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:32:19 GMT

> Yes, but VM can help you make the best use of your physical RAM (by swapping
> out unused code).

I have been reading some of this on going exchange and think that there
is a mix of terms being used that is not correct.  VM does not imply
swapping or paging, it only indicates that one physical address does
not necessarily appear at the same location in the virtual address
space of one or more processes.  You can have VM without paging and
swaping and doing so can provide the ability to do many things which a
strictly physical addressing scheme would prohibit.  What the amiga
needs is VM without paging/swapping.  This would allow the per process
protected address spaces that so many people feel is important to
controlling the damage done by errant processes.  It would also provide
a new start for resource tracking since the only usable implementation that
would by default work for all processes would involve the creation of a
new set of exec functions for passing messages, and creating other
shared memory based objects.


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: CBM does it again... 23 watt p.s. for A1200?!?
Keywords: gimme a break
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:20:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.214447.8423@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>In <1993Jan8.122914.21083@cheshire.oxy.edu> leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:
>>Geez, thats even less powerful than the pathetic 35 watt p.o.s. I had
>>burn up on me with a console alone!  Of all the things to scrimp on, this
>>has to be about the most ridiculous... come on, why not give us a standard
>>150 or 200 watt p.s.  How much could it cost?
>
>$80 extra ? And most folx wouldn't use it and could as well get problems
>because such a unit generates extra heat.

   BS on both counts.  I can get nice 150W power supplies with built-in fans
and numerous outputs for $40 new, in tiny quantities (IE: one).  Think of how
much it would cost Commodore to purchase such power supplies with only a single
output in huge quantities.  And heat would not be a problem, because the fan
could still be there.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 1200/4000 pricing
Date: 4 Jan 1993 05:54:44 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

'>While it is true that not everyone who owns a PC is into speadsheets and
'>databases (you and me for instance), I find it difficult to imagine your
'>comment regarding great graphics and sound. Non-Windows' programs typically
'>support VGA which means, for games, either 640x480x16(colours) or 320x200
'>with 256 colours. In either case you have a chunky graphics' mode the moment 
'>there's movement.

	My comment regarding great graphics and sound applies to the games
    I play.  Many of which are now 640x480x256, like Links386 Pro and V for
    Victory.  Patriot will be another one when its released this month.  For
    the games I like to play, flight sims (Aces of the Pacific), Adventure
    (Ultima Underworld), Strategy/Wargame (V for Victory, Carriers at War),
    Sports (Links386 Pro), Action (Commanche-Maximum Overkill), the PC offers
    me very fine graphics and sound IMHO.

							Greg Greene
                                                        ggg@kepler.unh.edu

'>Philip McDunnough
'>philip@utstat.toronto.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
X-Spook-Fodder: hero heroin tree shrub bush birth life death FBI CIA NSA
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:56:13 GMT

In <C0qp70.5pL@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>In fact, his statement should be very much true. The '040 uses the same
>>"double clock" technique that exists in 486DX2's. So, to be fair,
>>the '040/25 should be compared with 486DX2/50 (and '040/33-486DX2/66).

>Funny, my literature about the 040 doesn't mention this double clock
>stuff....are you trying to imply that the 040 goes twice the speed of
>the motherboard, like the DX2?

the 040 is internally clocked at twice the motherboard speed, e.g. the
25Mhz part is 50Mhz internally. it is exacly analagous to the 486dx2 clock 
doubling. 


>Sure the 486 is just an optimized 386.  That's what the whole "RISC"
>thing is about.  New CPU's aren't supposed to add instructions, just
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^             
>optimizations!  And since the 486 runs twice (if not more) as fast at
>the same clock speed, I think they've done a good job.

i don't understand the portion i've underlined. i'm not familiar with 
this stipulation for CPU design.


-- 
paul theodoropoulos     damiel@netcom.com     (hooools@well.sf.ca.us)

"Those who will trade essential liberty for promise of security will have
 neither" - Benjamin Franklin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy