HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: graeme@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths)
Subject: This whole "Ignorance is enforced" r.m-m reorg argument
Organization: Abekas Video Systems, Reading, UK.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:44:10 GMT


	[Argument deleted, if you missed it count yourself lucky]

	It would appear that Dave Heyes (amongst others, I'm not picking on
you Dave I just remember your name) argues that because people are
ignorant of the news group structure, they shouldn't be penalised when it
comes to voting on reorgs of their fave groups. Others (myself included)
would argue that for this very reason they have already penalised
themselves (i.e. by not finding out in the first place). I have a really
simple solution why not just post a message globally crossposted with a
Subject that will get everyones attention (I'll leave that to Dave I'd
probably get it wrong anyway ;-) telling them about the news system and it
organisation. Of course this might just cause a little flak (something
akin to Dresden I think we'll find) from already clued up users but at
least we could stop this pointless argument.

	Any system admin or anyone whos had some connection with teaching
users about systems will tell you that some people will just NOT LEARN a
system, it's the old "I only need these three functions....." attitude.
Some users are happy only knowing enough to read the news, when it turns
out that they lose a group that they're fond of perhaps they'll get upset
and try and find out why they didn't know, and then they'll learn the
system. I suggest that it is impossible to get them to learn before then.

	Just my $4.50.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|From: Graeme Griffiths             | "Well your jokes ain't funny,          |
|Abekas Video Systems,12 Portman Rd,|    and there's nothing you say,        |
|Reading,Berks,ENGLAND.             |      that I want to hear....."         |
|(0734)585421 x2247                 |                     Skid Row           |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:44:24 GMT

In article <id.6I0V.407@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)  
writes:
> In article <1992Nov13.072700.324@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com  
(Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> > What about stand-alone users who don't have a system manager to fall  
back  
> > on.
> 
> How could such an entity possibly exist? They either set up a feed for
> themselves, which implies they have more of a clue than you're making  
out,
> or they're using someone else's system, and that's their system manager.
> 

It's easy. Get a news feed from a commercial source. Obtain C-News from  
anonymous ftp (or even Compuserve). Either follow some explicit  
instructions you run across regarding the installation process (these  
exist) and/or hire a local UNIX expert to install it for you. Tah dum!

Will the commercial newsfeed provider offer direct support for your news  
system? Most don't aside from telling you where you can obtain C-News via  
ftp, and adding/deleting newsgroups from your feed. In my mind that  
doesn't count as having a System Manager.

Looks to me like there are going to be a lot more sites like this...

Gordon
 
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: steele@vlsi.caltech.edu (Craig Steele)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.dylan - Go for it.
Date: 16 Nov 1992 11:36:24 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: steele@vlsi.caltech.edu (Craig Steele)
NNTP-Posting-Host: kiwi.cs.caltech.edu
Keywords: dylan yes

I've just received the book from Apple.  It's well written
and the language would appear to be well-motivated and of
some potential interest to both commercial and research
communities, assuming implementations become available.
Given that the language definition is both concrete and
yet evolving, a widely distributed forum could be productive
for both the developers and prospective users.  Wouldn't it
be better to carp before rather than after the fact?



Craig Steele, steele@vlsi.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: musjndx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jonathan N. Deitch)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:44:59 GMT

pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden) writes:

>Proposed Newsgroup's Name
>=========================
> rec.arts.fantasy

It'd be nice if we could work this into the rec.arts.sf hierarchy ... then
we wouldn't need a whole new one ...

Otherwise, I think it's a great idea !

- Jonathan
-- 
         ** Atlanta Braves - Back to Back NL Champs '91 and '92 **

 Internet: jdeitch@gisatl.fidonet.org   Fidonet: Jonathan Deitch@1:133/411.7
           musjndx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu      Bellnet: 1 - (404) - 261 - 3665           
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlanta 1996 !! | Play Pinball !! | Don't Panic ! | "I hate it when I can't
--------------------------------------------------| trust my own technology!"
"Thrills!  Chills!  Magic!  Prizes!" -- Hurricane |    -- Geordi LaForge

Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov, Jim Henson, Dr. Seuss, Mel Blanc ... Sigh ...

Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:12:24 GMT



I call myself a Muslim, the same way you call yourself Shakil.
If I call you something else, you will still be Shakil, and if you
call me a non Muslim, I will in fact remain a Muslim, unless you are
God.

Dr Tahir Ijaz, M.D.
An Ahmadi Muslim
-- 
=============        ======     ============      ==       ========
     ||                ||            ||         //  \\          // 
     ||                ||            //        ========       //
     ||       0      ======     =====        //        \\  ========   M.D.
Xref: sparky news.groups:21946 rec.music.synth:18475
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:12:49 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab

In <1992Nov9.111822.23659@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>"rec.music.synth" worked. Why change it?

Because if we follow through, we will have following groups:

rec.music.percussions
rec.music.bass
rec.music.guitar
rec.music.saxophone
rec.music.piano
rec.music.violin
rec.music.tabulature
ad nauseaum.

And you do not think that a more logical way would be:

rec.music.makers.guitar
rec.music.makers.brass.saxophone
rec.music.makers.violin.double-bass

I guess you are one of those people who like to have everything in
their hard disk under one root directory....


BTW, the new groups have already been created.  I guess your arguments
didn't hold water with David Lawrence.  Better hope with your revote.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:38:19 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Nov12.163353.10439@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>
>Agreed - but people would miss votes that affect them. They shouldn't have  
>to go through a period of unknown length before they can be considered to  
>be valid members of the community.
>

You are crossing up two separate issues.  There is no suggested
"lurking period" before which a vote may be considered valid.  In that
sense one is a member of the community from the day they first take
an interest in those silly articles with the incomprehensible subject
lines.

The suggested "lurking period" (emphasis on suggested) of six months
before making proposals is an attempt to caution people from making
ill-conceived proposals.  It is not mandatory.  A good proposal can
and will be considered no matter what the source.  A bad proposal can
and will be flamed no matter what the source.  There is no magic
quality about "six months" experience that suddenly conveys upon
one the ability to make a good suggestion! :)

As a matter of past experience it has been shown that new and 
enthusiastic participants are likely to come up with poorly
thought out proposals -- hence the suggested (repeat, suggested)
six month "lurking period" before trying to change the world.

NO WHERE in ANY of this can it be inferred that someone without
some minimum length of time on the system is to be considered
"not a valid member of the community"!!!!!



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Work away today, think about tomorrow.		|
Never comes the day, for my love and me.	|	-Richard Hartman	
I feel her gently sighing			|	hartman@uLogic.COM
as the evening slips away....			|
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Is there a general fault-tolerance news group?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 01:22:06 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
Keywords: fault tolerance

In article <1992Nov17.203927.9825@eecs.nwu.edu> ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.192123.28286@frog.CRDS.COM> miket@frog.CRDS.COM (Michael C Tiernan) writes:
>>Might I suggest a good place to start the discussions for such a subject
>>would be in "comp.realtime" as well as "alt.industrial.computing".
>
>As well as comp.os.research.

Why, fault tolerance has only a peripherial role in these groups and should
not serve as the primary focus of the discussion. Fault tolerance is of 
interest to all of these groups but only in the context of their primary
subject areas. The best current groups I can think of are

1) comp.arch - if you take computer architecture to the broader sense of what
it is than ongoing discussions of RISC/CISC and HLL/Assembler wars, the 
incorporation of fault tolerant principles certainly are central to certain
aspects of computer architectures. Using the same rational that formed the
comp.arch.storage I can see that comp.arch is a good place to start.

2) comp.misc - logical since if there is not a specific group to cover a 
subject than it would seem that it should be discussed in the .misc group.

3) comp.software-eng - if you want to discuss the aspects of designing 
software to be fault tolerant.

My choice would be to use comp.arch and if there is sufficient traffic, then
form a comp.arch.fault-tol subgroup.


-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Discussion: Rewriting the newsgroup creation rules--drastically
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:37:23 GMT

irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>That means that any sufficiently large and vocal group can have a fairly
>significant impact on the net. As long as the decisions are made by some
>sort of voting procedure, a group with sufficiently many members to
>influence the vote can, well, influence the vote. This, like it or not, is a
>consequence of our semi-democratic anarchy. 

In the long run, any effort to impose an arbitrary standard (good or not)
on a large group of people is going to cause a subset of that group to
react adversly. As usenet grows bigger, the probability of this happening 
increases proportionally. 

Since news.groups is notorious for "renaming flamewars" (of which I happen 
to be a part), it is inevitable that major dissent will occur between some
large vocal group (such as the religious group currently discussing things)
and the culture in news groups. 

>And, I suspect that an attempt
>to change the political nature of Usenet will be met with a lot of
>resistance, though you're certainly free to propose.

Why am I not surprised? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Knowledge is something you can use. Belief is something that uses you.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: farrow@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (J. Scott Farrow)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:34:37 GMT

adc@tardis.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) writes:

[...]
>> Before you completely write off his proposals, keep in mind that he's trying
>> to make our lives easier by taking the initiative and doing something.  I
>> think he could've presented it in a less fascist-sounding manner, but I
>> don't see anything wrong with talking it over.

>Ummm, fascist-sounding?  I believe that it is of the same formal tone
>as other RFDs.  As a matter of fact I used an RFD for the splitting of
>linux as a template.

At least in comp.os.linux, there was a real honest-to-goodness discussion
(argument) about whether a split is needed, as opposed to your one-sided, one-
supporter proposal. Hell, the traffic in comp.os.linux must be 10 times that
in rec.games.netrek anyway. They need to be thinking about a split. 
rec.games.netrek does not have the traffic to warrant a split.

I still have yet to see anyone besides Alan supporting (indifference does not
count) the idea of a split. If you take this to a vote, Alan, it will go down
in flames. Why bother?

Scott
(aka Necron)


>---
>Alan Cabrera				internet:  adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu
>Computer Laboratory			phone:     (517) 353-3027
>Michigan State University		fax:       (517) 353-9847
>514 Computer Center			bitnet:    CABRERA@MSU
>East Lansing, MI 48824

--
************* Repeal Amendment 2! - Shame On You, Colorado. ******************
J. Scott Farrow-Student SysAdmin/Programmer, University of Colorado at Boulder
Computing & Network Services, Boulder, Colorado, USA, phone: (303) 492-4428
Internet: farrow@spot.colorado.edu, farrow@cs.colorado.edu
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Summary: Guidelines? In alt.*? Naaaaaaaaah.
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:40:44 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1992Nov12.000123.22270@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz>, thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz (Thomas Beagle) writes:
 >In article <1762@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
 >>In article <1992Nov04.051306.16736@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz>, thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz (Thomas Beagle) writes:
 >>> I don't understand you. You refer to the "alt sewer" and then wish to
 >>> appropriate one of the groups from it.
 >>
 >>Sometimes even good things fall into the sewer. It's only fitting to try
 >>and rescue them. The same thing was just recently done with
 >>alt.bbs.waffle (now comp.bbs.waffle).
 > 
 >It doesn't need rescuing, it's not dying. It's not even sick!
 >
 >Alt.* is not a sewer. It's a part of news that works to slightly
 >different guidelines than the rest of the place.

Right. One of them is, I believe, that no newsgroup ever disappears from
alt.*, ever. Another is that anyone can make a newsgroup, anytime. 

Yup, that about covers it. 

> >You're not paying attention. A lot of places don't GET the alt.*
> >hierarchy for one reason or another. Often it's just not available and
> >many SysAdmins are not interested in taking the large portion of crap
> >that comes with the good groups. Not to mention the endless juvenile
> >'newgroup wars'. 
> 
> That's what I mean. Talk to whoever runs your feed. Tell them that you
> think it would be worthwhile to get some of the alt groups (you don't
> have to get them all). 

I get alt.*. I read 3 or 4 groups, feed what my leaf sites want fed and
toss the rest in the bit bucket. Newgroups are ignored. The only geniune
entertainment I get from alt.* is in the fall reading the control
messages from the college newbies excercising their newfound muscles. 

> Again, propagation problems are not the fault of the rest of the net!

Explain your fuzzy logic please. 

> >> For any reasonable site in the world, alt.* is as much part of the
> >> mainstream as anywhere else.
> >
> >Mainstream? Alt? Pardon me whilst I fall out of my chair laughing. 
> >Things must be slow in New Zealand if you think alt is mainstream. 
> 
> Well, it seems strange that if somewhere as far away as NZ can get the
> alt.* groups that it wants, that a site in mainland USA can't.

More fuzzy logic. 

Being able to get an alt feed != alt being mainstream.

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf)
Subject: Re: DAVID LAWRENCE: Reveil the truth: S.R.I.A (CFV)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:45:25 GMT

>>>>> On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:01:53 GMT, rafiq@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (RAFIQ ANWAR) said:

RA> While the CFV by Mr. Jafry has been cancelled, but still
RA> he insists on collecting votes. That is also endorsed by
RA> the S.R.I. moderator Balasat Ali Raja.

What a shameless charge you're making. Mr. Raja is not endorsing
anybody. He authorized Mr. Jafri's article after being authorized by
Mr. Lawrence on news.announce.newgroups and sent to s.r.i. Then he
posted Mr. Rana's CFV and an article of mine urging people not to send
votes to Mr. Jafri. He also tried to cancel Mr. Jafri's article but
couldn't since it seems it can only be canceled by Mr. Jafri. Will you
please stop throwing neurotic allegations left and right without
thinknig about what you're saying?

I have still to hear from Mr. Lawrence about this whole mess caused by
him officially authorizing Mr. Jafri's CFV on news.announce.newgroups.
I have not received anything from him nor have I seen an explanation
or a comment on a possible remedy in public.

--
/M. Saggaf
 alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu
From: biow@cs.umd.edu (chris biow)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.basic
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:06:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: mimsy.62118
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

Let's do it. alt.lang.basic is generating more traffic than
a lot of the existing comp.* groups. And BASIC can claim 
more programmers (people programming for other people) than
all but a couple of other languages, if Microsoft's white
paper can be believed. 

Plus, it's how I make my living, selling a vertical market
PC application to banks and mortgage companies.

Hopefully the religious warfare won't get too bad. If so,
we'll have to RFD a comp.lang.basic.advocacy group.
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Documentation Ideas (was Re: Intentional ignorance...)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:19:39 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov18.062003.18756@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu's message of Wed, 18 Nov 1992 06:20:03 GMT

However it's done, some attempt at a References or For Further
Info section should be included.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: cgd@eden.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Chris G. Demetriou)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.os.386bsd.{announce,bugs,devel,misc}
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:52:06 GMT
Organization: Kernel Hackers 'r' Us
NNTP-Posting-Host: eden.cs.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil's message of Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:11:01 GMT

here we go again...

In article <By6z2E.Jp7@ra.nrl.navy.mil> atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson) writes:
>  This proposal is out of order as a violation of the "6 month rule"
>on waiting between proposing essentially the same newsgroup as one
>that was shot down.

wrong.
it never got to a vote last time; it was dropped on the floor w/o a vote.
take a look in the guidelines...

>Besides which there are a large number of problems with the proposal:

here we go again...

>1) wrong name.  Should be	comp.unix.bsd.i386.*

	not true;  386bsd is becoming less and less "bsd" as days go by.
	not only that, there are other bsd variants for the i386 which are
	*not* 386bsd and for which 386bsd discussion does *not* apply.

	finally, 386bsd is *NOT* unix.  UNIX is a trademark of USL,
	and is usable only to describe their stuff, or derivates of it,
	with their permission.

	therefore, it is not only nonsensical to use that name, it
	could also be deemed illegal.
	(not that i buy USL's suit, i just take no chances.

>2) ~.devel is gratuitously unconventional.  ~.programmer would be better

	on 386bsd, almost everybody *has* to be a programmer.
	what we're pushing for is a forum to discuss kernel development,
	not general 386bsd programming.

>3) The bugs newsgroup already exists:  comp.bugs.4bsd
>   and the proposed group has the wrong heirarchy and so if anything
>   were created it should be named comp.bugs.4bsd.i386

	again, the 4bsd hierarchy/classification is becoming increasingly
	incorrect.  If it is not completely incorrect now, it *will* be,
	a year from now.

>I could go on enumarating the many problems, but won't for now.

	please do.
	I've better things to do than answer erroneous news postings,
	but if i have to, i will.

Chris
--
Chris G. Demetriou                                    cgd@cs.berkeley.edu

"Sometimes it is better to have twenty million instructions by
        Friday than twenty million instructions per second." -- Wes Clark
Xref: sparky news.groups:22096 news.admin.policy:416
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL ON NEWSGROUP RENAMING
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:26:07 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Nov15175242@fuller.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>Please reply by mail to the mailbox <ed@intellection.com>.
> [poll questions vis-a-vis rec.music.synth deleted]

I note with interest that your poll was posted to these newsgroups:

	news.admin.misc,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth

I would like to know (a) why it wasn't posted to rec.music.makers.synth,
and (b) why it doesn't mention rec.music.makers.synth or rec.music.synth
on the "Subject" line.  I suggest that a better subject might be:

	Subject: rec.music.makers.synth <-> rec.music.synth renaming poll

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups