From: cipher@lacerta.unm.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Summary: Homosexuality as metaphor
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:24:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.fb1jk!#
Organization: Universal Life Church of Secular Humorism

In article <1992Apr15.161326.25134@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>
>
>
>>In actual fact, it would seem that you are the one who is deluded.  You
>>presume that a practicing ritual magician actually cares whether or not
>>you believe him.  Or anyone else for that matter. 
>
>Fine, all I'm saying is that as far as I am concerned, give me some evidence
>if you want me to believe what you are saying.

But, the gentleman has just told you--he doesn't *care* if you believe
him.  In spite of your amendments to earlier postings, maintaining
that you were speaking to particular people, your tone still appears
to be that of the expectant judge--"Present thy arguments, o unworthy
magickians, and I shall see if ye are permitted to exist in my [ed.
note:  narrow] reality-tunnel."  What horseshit.

>>"scientific" method on a form of art seems patently ridiculous!  You
>>might as well try and "replicate the results" of Da Vinci or Picasso as
>>to try and duplicate a ritual performed by an adept in the pursuit of
>>his own true will.
>
>At least Da Vinci and Picasso present the results of their art to the
>world.

Artists yearn for public recognition (sometimes).  More often than
not, they do public works for money.  We have lots of wonderful
paintings from Michelangelo because no one would pay him to sculpt--
what he really wanted to do.

The set of people interested in proving things to you seems quite
small--how about moving it to email, or better yet, let us know how
you do with the experiments Josh Geller has thoughtfully provided you
with?  Or did you miss his invitation?  Funny how often people do
that.

(You might be interested to know that the last time someone came on
here saying "I'm an Occult Badass", he left not long after Mr. Geller
provided him with some good experiments with fine controls.  The group
is not short on skeptics--the ones we listen to are those who
demonstrate that they are interested in truth, as opposed the outright
hostility you display.)

Again I detect this tone that we *owe* you some kind of explanation,
and that if we don't feel that obligation, we are mentally deficient.
More horseshit.

>>  
>>So, if you must assume that anyone who refuses to discuss very personal
>>things publicly is a charlatan and not to be trusted...  Then you will
>>find that this newsgroup above all others is stuffed full of charlatans
>>and liars!  There, now you can go and put on your smug facade of
>>superiority and tell everyone you can get to listen "I knew they were
>>just a bunch of fakers!"  {Meanwhile, the true magician sits back with a
>>small knowing smile upon his lips.}
>
>Look if it turns you on to stay in the closet then do so, but don't
>be suprised if the rest of the world considers you to be a maniac, because
>like it or not, society as a whole tends to treat people that are 
>secretive with suspicion.  Since Homosexuals have come out of the closet,
>they are more accepted than they used to be.

Ah, how nice.  Is this the Year of Blaming the Victim or what?  While
you make a fine strategic suggestion for the acceptance of magickians,
namely their being more public, it makes no sense to contend that we
somehow deserve the shitty treatment you keep panning out because we
don't want to talk to you with your high and mighty attitude.

"Don't be surprised" is a smokescreen for "you deserve it."  I am
queer, and I've encountered this reasoning many, many times.  It
exposes your bigotry quite nicely.  Magickians are no more obligated
to speak about their practices to you than queers are to explain to
straights the exact fashion in which we fuck.  When it's been
explained to you exactly how to do it if *you* want to, you've reacted
with the familiar silence.


                                 --Rev. J. B. Bell

Opinions expressed are mine, not CIRT's, not the Universal Life
Church's.
-- 
"Imagination is the strop of Occam's Razor."
     Shava Nerad Averett