HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Mattingly, what a fine fielder (was: Hardly not etc.)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:22:31 GMT

In <1dgu0oINN82n@mozz.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:

>'>No one would *ever* judge a hitter mainly by his stance and swing --
>'>that would be foolish.  David Segui looks really great at the plate, but
>'>he can't hit.  Meanwhile, Dave Winfield has never looked very good at
>'>the plate (to me) and yet he's an excellent hitter.

>'>Who got more hits last year -- Willie McGee, with his awful looking
>'>swing, or John Olerud, with his great swing?  Surprise!  It was Willie
>'>McGee.  Who was better at basestealing -- Mike Devereaux, one of the
>'>fastest guys in the league, or Ron Karkovice, a catcher?  Surprise!  Ron
>'>Karkovice stole as many bases, and much more successfully.

>'>But watching them certainly wouldn't have told you that, while the stats DO.

>	So if you are suddenly put in the position of being a major league
>   manager, you would evaluate talent in spring training by sitting in the
>   clubhouse waiting for someone to hand you each games stats, without
>   ever having to bother watching a game. 

No, of course not.  Looking at the stats for each game wouldn't tell you
diddly.  Watching a couple of spring training games is about as relevant as
watching a few beer commercials, but looking at the stats for a couple
of spring training games isn't much better.

I'd never judge a player based on a few games, watching OR stats.  

Now, looking at the stats for a player's *career*, properly adjusted for 
park and league, on the other hand, will tell a LOT about that player.

This is why so many managers seem to have problems identifying rookie
talent.  They watch a bunch of spring training games and weight that
more heavily than 2 or 3 years of minor league stats.

Now, watching a player's entire career might be more useful than looking
at the stats for that player, but how many people watch a player's
entire career?  An opposing manager sees 12-18 games of that player, per 
year.  And who could remember every game they ever saw of hundreds of 
different players?

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
niepornt@phoenix.    |------------------------------------ 
   princeton.edu     | "I still believe in a place called Hope."
Clinton/Gore '92.  Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
From: srubio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steven Rubio)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Greatest moments in baseball history
Date: 9 Nov 1992 18:57:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

You be nice about the Giants' manager.  If some of us get our wish, by
next April that manager will be an ex-Dodger named Dusty Baker, and THEN
whattya gonna do?

-- 
Steven (I'll sleep when I'm dead)
Organization: Senior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Date: Fri,  6 Nov 1992 12:19:44 -0500 
From: Amit Likhyani <al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gold Gloves Announced
	<steph.721034424@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu>

>Short: Ozzie
(Behind Jay Bell in range)

That is really hard to believe.  So Jay deserved the gold glove more
than Lind.  Try convincing the mediots in Pittsburgh of that.

I would be surprised if he pulled this stunt off again next year, unless
Zane Smith pitches a ton of innings and Cooke and Backlund are serious
ground ball pitchers.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: The *real* most unbreakable record
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:32:38 GMT

In article <TOM.92Nov9075424@amber.ssd.csd.harris.com>, tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) writes:
|> I have been watching this unbreakable record thread, and I feel compelled
|> by some (probably dangerous) urge to point out one record which is totally
|> unbreakable:
|> 
|>    Most number of fly balls caught for an out in a single inning by an
|>    outfielder.
|> 
|> The unbreakable record is 3 (however, the list of players tied for this
|> record is a little too long to post here...).

Yeah?? Well, how about:

   Number of put outs per inning.

or

   Number of RBIs per at bat.

or even

  Number of players pitching at once.

YAWN...

-Ron
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: loos@cup.hp.com (Joe Loos)
Subject: Expansion draft questions
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:40:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

I somehow haven't yet read how the expansion draft on Nov 17 is
going to work.

I know that after a certain number of picks, each team gets to
protect another 3 players.

Can someone give a brief explanation?

Thanks,

Joe Loos
loos@cup.hp.com
From: barrym@informix.com (Barry Mednick)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Who was the favorite player of your youth?.
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:07:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

Favorite Major League Players--Ted Williams and Stan Musial.
Favorite minor league players--Sam Miley and RC Stevens
-----------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: joeb@cserver.plexus.com (Joe Brotz)
Subject: Re: Brewers in 93?
Organization: Plexus Corp. -- Neenah Wisconsin
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:28:00 GMT

arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow) writes:

>In article <1992Nov8.025305.28614@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Shawn.T.Burgess@dartmouth.edu (Shawn T. Burgess) writes:
>>
>>Just a question:  do you guys think the Brewers season this year was a
>>fluke or can they pull it off next year?  Also, who are they likely to
>>lose this year (free-agent, draft, etc.)?
>>

>Definite fluke. I am skeptical that Listach can repeat his offensive
>performance. Their bats in the outfield are miserable. Feltcher and 
>Seitzer = get real?

>The only legitimate bat I see in their lineup is Molitor who may not be
>back next season. With a human Eldred and without Bosio, I just don't
>see a competitive team here.

>Everything went right for them this year. Next year, if major changes are
>not made, my prediction is Milwaukee on the bottom.

>--Les

They probably will do worse next year, but last place? 
Get a clue pal!! I guess everybody else in the division
somehow managed to make dramatic changes for the better?!
I don't buy it.
--
"Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever    <Joseph A. Brotz         >
saw. Every time he pitches, the other team    <joeb@cserver.plexus.com >
doesn't score any runs." - Tim McCarver       <UUCP: spool!cserver!joeb>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cs127050@cs.brown.edu (Michael Kalman)
Subject: Re: 5 truly unbreakable records.
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 23:49:38 GMT


        Just to pick up the fewest-pitches-in-an-inning thread, 
I think that (theoretically) a pitcher can retire the side on 
zero pitches:

   for out= 1 to 3
     {
      for ball= 1 to 4
         {
          pitcher goes to his mouth w/ his hand on a warm day;
          umpire calls a ball;
          }

       batter reaches first base on walk;
       (batter picked off) or (batter caught stealing);
     }
   END OF INNING!


(This is the tragic result of a student who has done nothing
but programming for the last few days :-)

Michael Kalman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: Reds/Yanks Trade
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:41:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.083642.18293@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
|> In <1992Nov5.204154.20119@novell.com> larrow@novell.com (Les Arrow) writes:
|> 
|> Of course, given that Tartabull's career numbers before this year 
|> were 372/514, it was MUCH more likely that he'd have a year like this 
|> one than like 1991.  
|> 
|> But you can't expect GMs to be able to *think.*  
|> 
|> Any GM that would call Danny Tartabull "expendable," though, needs to be
|> shot.  Now if they were planning on releasing Mattingly, who IS
|> expendable, the deal would make more sense.  But they aren't.
|> 
|> I don't understand it at all.  


  Yeah - makes no sense - Kelly was one of their best trade prospects for 
getting a good starting pitcher. And to resolve their draft status, they could
have traded Kelly plus Snow and maybe somebody else for a top pitcher. But,
NOOO! Steinbrenneritis has set in once more.

 
|> The NYT reported today that the Yankees are planning on platooning
|> O'Neill with Gerald Williams.  They also noted that there's a nice hole
|> in LF now for Bonds to step into.

  Go, George!!! Get that wallet out!!! Get Barry!!! We want Barry!! 

|> 
|> (Speaking of which, the Village Voice rumored that Nokes for Greenwell
|> was a possible deal.)

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!


-Ron

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hzminu@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Zakki (or Zak) Minu)
Subject: Blue Jays' Protected List Confirmed 
Keywords: List
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:58:58 GMT

According to today's Toronto Star, the 15 portected Blue Jays are:

Pitchers:
Juan Guzman
Pat Hentgen
Todd Stottlemyre
Mike Timlin
Duane Ward

Catchers:
Pat Borders
Carlos Delgado
Randy Knorr
Ed Sprague

Infielders:
Roberto Alomar
Domingo Martinez
John Olerud

Outfielders:
Derek Bell
Juan De la Rosa
Devon White



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Standards for defensive statistics (Was Re: Mattingly...)
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:47:47 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Distribution: na

In article <BxB0qH.MrM@news.cso.uiuc.edu>  
hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
> I'm a little troubled by what seems to be a prevailing belief that 
> defensive statistics should be required to meet some higher level  
of
> proof than what we implicitly apply to offensive statistics.  It  
may
> have to do with the "age" of the statistics.  Everyone is  
comfortable
> with BA and has a good feeling for what it means.  

I think a major reason here is how easy these stats are to
find and calculate.  The offensive stats are easy to calculate:
box scores include AB, H, W, HR, extra base hits, etc.  These 
are also included in almost all stat books.  Thus, it is easy
to get the numbers you need to calculate BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, etc.
The same is not true for defense.

I'd also argue that the offensive numbers (at least the ones
we now keep) are easier to see and determine. Most events
are straight forward, completely objective (ignoring errors,
which are reasonably rare).  A batter walks. A batter gets a hit.
A batter strikes out.  It's much trickier on defense and not
as easy to see.  Was that hit in Mattingly's zone?  Well, the
zone isn't painted on the field, so we have to decide this. I
agree it can be done, but the results aren't as easy for the
typical fan to relate to.

(By the way, for "aesthetic" reasons, I prefer to avoid complicated
stats. I think the silliest stat in sports is the quarterback
ratings the NFL uses, which is a number based on some weighted
combination of percentage completions, interceptions, yardage,
TD passes, and perhaps the phases of the moon.  It's to the 
point that most (read 95%) of the football fans may able to
tell you who the number one rated quarterback in the league is,
but they can't tell you why he is; they know because CBS said
so.  I'd like to see baseball avoid this kind of thing.)

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mccarthy@wucs1.wustl.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Mathematics of Baseball - Course
Summary: New math course
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:22:05 GMT


I am thinking of teaching a course in the math dept. on the
mathematics of baseball. It would cover two areas
i) The mathematical physics behind the game - how far
a ball should go, how it is affected by temperature, etc.

ii) Sabermetrics - how remarkable was Joe DiMaggio's streak,
what is a good measure of run production, etc.

I am not an expert in this, and would appreciate any 
suggestions. The only book I have is Robert Adair's 
"The physics of baseball", which is great in its own way, but
presents things as experimental facts (eg the effect of air
resistance making the optimum trajectory 35 degrees), rather
than giving a formula for the air resistance as a function of velocity
(with numerical values for the constants!) from which one can 
calculate the optimum trajectory.
Any books or articles recommended will be appreciated.


When it comes to sabermetrics, there are obviously huge
quantities of data available, as people quote results
of statistical analysis. Is it available in on-line form?
(I don't want to type in Elias' numbers for the last ten years).
If so, are there any software packages freely available
(or available free) for handling it?

Thanks in advance,
John McCarthy
mccarthy@jezebel.wustl.edu
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Mmmm... Purple)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Ripken wins Gold Glove!!!!!
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:54:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Nov5.185432.5874
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <5NOV199210015536@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>	What scares me about this is that it means Cal "Not So" Junior is
>STILL the best A.L. shortstop, after having a very poorly mediocre season.

No, it means he has the best defensive reputation.  Which is nowhere near
the best defense.  The average ML range for SS was 4.70.  Cal had 4.57,
way behind Gagne (5.06), who had as many assists as Cal despite playing 300
fewer innings.

Maybe, in a sick sense, it makes up for the Gold Gloves Cal should've won
when he was younger, but I'd prefer if the GG were awarded on this season's
performance rather than performance 5-8 years ago.

>	Does anyone out there have his final defensive stats to compare
>him to the rest of the A.L.?  

I don't have DA, but here goes.

Player   Inn  PO  A  E  DP  RF
Ripken  1440 287 445 12 117 4.57
Gagne   1146 207 438 18  82 5.06
Listach 1279 238 451 24  89 4.85

Bunches of others, also.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
also at quibeaux@uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: chuck@maui.webo.dg.com (Chuck Noyes)
Subject: SF Giants
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 18:44:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Data General Corporation, Webo, MA.

Maybe I missed it, but isn't it time the NL decides the fate of the Giants? 
It's one thing for a team to go on the road and play in LA, SF, then SD; but
quite another to play in LA, Tampa, and then in SD.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Chuck Noyes                              DGC |
| Chuck@maui.webo.dg.com                       |
+----------------------------------------------+ 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: shott@cascade.Stanford.EDU (John Shott)
Subject: Oakland Protected List Query (Welch?/Hendu?)
Organization: Center for Integrated Systems, Stanford University, California
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:40:04 GMT

Thanks to Myles Sussman for typing in the list of protected players that
appeared in the San Jose Mercury News.  I believe that the Merc got their
information from the Chicago Tribune ....

As an Athletics fan, however, I've got a question about a couple of names
that DIDN'T appear on the Oakland list.  Specifically, what about Bob Welch
and Dave Henderson?  I was under the impression that they were both 5/10
players who were not free agents and, therefore, were required to be
protected.  Am I missing something?  Certainly they each have 10 years of ML
service and they were acquired by Oalkand in Dec. 1987 which would mean that
they have each had 5 full seasons ... unless time on the DL is subtracted?
Hendu may have even not been on the roster for much of this season, but
Oakland still paid him.  In fact, I seem to recall an Oakland season ticket
holder newsletter (from roughly August) indicating that Welch and Hendu
(along with Rickey and Eck) had to be on the protected list.

Does anyone know the exact story in this case?

Thanks,

John
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: arrow@netcom.com (Les Arrow)
Subject: Re: Brewers in 93?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:40:44 GMT

>
>I was very surprised that they did so well this year!  Actually,
>Austin looked like a decent prospect.  But Fetters???  I'd make Austin
>the closer, and try to again work miracles with whoever is left.
>

Austin? No. BB/K ratio is lousy. Wouldn't want him closing my games. Not
that Henry is that much better, but I'd stick with him for now.

>Dunno what happened to Vaughn.  He's a better hitter than he showed
>this year.  Hm.  Maybe not.  He's older than I had thought (27 next
>year).  But he should still be slugging at least .450.  I guess he's
>not that hot a prospect.  Do the Brewers have any other possibilities
>here?
>

I think the jury is still out on Greg Vaughn. Can you say Rob Deer? I think
we'll see this year. According to Bill James, this is Greg Vaughn's magic
year. I believe, James states that most major leaguers have their best seasons
at the age of 27 :-)

--Les
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard)
Subject: Re: "Athletic" vs. "Intelligent"
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:33:24 GMT

In <1992Nov10.012855.19772@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (All this) writes:

>In article <1992Nov9.222224.2607@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>>Is the difference between Cal Ripken's and Tony Fernandez' styles of defense 
>>readily apparent in statistics?  Ripken can more easily afford to lose a step
>>than Fernandez because he plays a less athletic, more intelligent game.

>Wow.  I'd deconstruct this, but we don't want to start another flamewar
>over racial stereotypes...

Well why try to start one then?  Absolute nonsense.  Kelly Gruber plays
a much more "athletic" 3rdbase than Pendleton.  Feel better now?  Can we
conclude from your statement that you have never watched Ripken and/or
Fernandez play?  Or can we conclude that you don't understand what you did
see?  Or did you just want to call me a racist?

rm


-- 
roger maynard
maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: HR's in Denver
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:19:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: master.1drmcjINNk87
Reply-To: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
NNTP-Posting-Host: g215a-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1992Nov9.235637.1109@cs.uwp.edu> krueger@cs.uwp.edu (Gerald  
Krueger) writes:
> Maybe I missed the discussion on this, but what are the dimensions
> of the park for the Rockies?  And how good an idea does MLB have
> about the conditions in Denver; Is the above common knowledge or
> are there other views? If a 400 foot HR is gonna go 440, what 
> happens when someone really gets a hold of one?

I forget the dimensions (they're long).
Joey Meyer hit a 502 ft. homerun a few years ago.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wilbanks@spot.Colorado.EDU (Wendell Gee)
Subject: Re: Greatest moments in baseball history
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:16:38 GMT

doli@troi.cc.rochester.edu (David Oliver) writes:


>To keep the winter going I'm going to post a new thread for discussion.
>(In a similar vein to "Favorite Players of my Youth" and "Most unbreakable
>records)  Here is my short list of greatest moments in baseball history
>(use whatever interprestation you want)

Well, I can't remember dates too well, and I'm young, so I'll go with 
years and months:
1985 - Dwight Gooden blows away NL. Gooden and Tudor finish under 2.00 ERA.

June 1991 - NL awards expansion team to Denver. ROCKIES!!!

1987 - Mark McGwire hits 49 homers as a rookie.

1989-1992 - Nolan Ryan wins 300+ games, throws 5000+ K's, adds a sixth and
seventh no-hitter, extends his records for walks, low-hit games, age.

1991 - Atlanta and Minnesota create the "last to first Series".

August 1992 - Canseco to the Rangers for Witt, Russell, and Sierra.

1984 (??) - Rod Carew and Tom Seaver reach 3,000 hits and 300 wins on 
the same day.

and, of course:
April 1975 - Hank Aaron reaches 3,000 hits
Sept. 30, 1972 - Roberto Clemente hits his 3,000 and last hit.

>-David Oliver (doli@troi.cc.rochester.edu)
-- 
Dylan Wilbanks, Classics major, AND NOW Environmental Conservation!
Hobbes:"Why do we always play war and not peace?"|Currently at:
Calvin:"Too few role models."                    |Box 1143
Ren-n-Stimpy in '92! Vote for a real cartoon!    |Boulder, CO 80306
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cwechter@cyclone.mitre.org (Christine G. Wechter)
Subject: Re: Extra playoffs (was: Re: I'm sorry, Jays didn't show me much)
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:52:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.153544.3581@asd.com> scott@asd.com (Scott Barman) writes:
>
>Let me ask you and the net a question: weather you're for expanded
>playoffs or against them, if it became a reality, would you watch them?
>-- 



Not *all* of them.  I just don't have time for that.  This year I watched
every minute of the playoffs that was on at night or on weekends (though
I'll admit to zoning out during a few Atlanta/Pittsburgh games).  Well
worth it, but I'm paying for it now.  

Probably I'd watch the teams/matchups I was most interested in, and then
I'd miss something exciting inthe games I didn't watch, and I'd be pissed. 

I stop dealing with hockey after the regular season, those playoffs are
ridiculous.  Don't even care who wins the Cup.  Watching a few extra 
football games is one thing, but extra 3-, 5-, or 7- game series -- way
too much.  

Besides, if the expanded playoffs were as exciting as most of the '92
playoffs, I don't think my heart could take it.  

We'll see, it should be interesting,...bet they do it though.  

Chris
From: csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu (C Squared)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1992 stats: fodder for the flame wars
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:15:54 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Originator: csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Nov4.203914.20346@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>
>JM in '92 has a one-year PF of 1.073, an extreme hitters park. That is
>far above anything else that park has posted, *ever* (previous high,
>1.024 in 1990). Could they have done something to the park this year
>(moved in the fences, filled in foul territory with seats?)
>
>
>Clay D.

I believe they did fill in some foul ground with more seats, because of the
All-Star game.  Am I hallucinating?

C Squared
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball