HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pcd@otter.esd.sgi.com (Paul C. David)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids
Subject: Re: stupid consumers
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:02:04 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Sep28.204408.12260@leland.Stanford.EDU>, eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
|> >
|> Yes, consumers are allowed to be stupid! Remember the DRAM industry in the US?
|> Americans used to pay approx $3.00 for a 256kx1 DRAM chip. Then the Japs
|> decide to undercut (which is , BTW illegal in this country). Now, the Fat Dumb 
|> and Happy (yes, your word Phil) So-called-americans take the bait and buy
|> the $1.50 JAPANESE import DRAMS. The US companies producing these go
|> out of business, and then the japs rocket the price to $12 each. Who
|> got screwed when it was all said and done? The Fat Dumb and Happy AMERICAN.

First of all, there's something to be said for dispensing with your
quasi-racist "Jap" vernacular.  You might fool some people into thinking
you're semi-intelligent.  Second ... the dumping idea occurs within US
markets all the time and I don't hear many people complaining about that.
That's called FREE ENTERPRISE.  Its not unamerican for American car makers 
to either import cars from Japan, or import parts for their cars.  That's
also called FREE ENTERPRISE.  Its not even unamerican for said car
maker to close plants in the US which previously made said parts, or 
may have made a discontinued make/model.

Let's also not forget that US companies are guilty of exploiting a
foreign workforce which they perceive to be cheaper (maybe because of 
lax safety standards in these countries).  This also takes jobs away
from US workers.

So this whole protectionist argument strikes me as an attempt for us
to have our cake and eat it too.  I understand your sympathy for it,
since its such a populist issue, but it just doesn't wash as being valid.

|> TRUE AMERICANS BUY AMERICAN!

TRUE AMERICANS READ AT A SEVENTH GRADE LEVEL!

|> Let those who buy imports lose their jobs first!

Like Pat Buchanan, the voice of the "America First" movement 
(and noted Mercedes owner)?  Since you're such a big fan of 
American products, why don't you take about 90 minutes to watch
"Roger and Me" on KQED Thursday night.  Whether you agree or 
disagree with Michael Moore's style, he does present a compelling
portrait of the depth of loyalty GM (one of the companies you're
implicitly defending) feels for its own hometown.

-- 

Paul C. David 
Applications Consulting, Silicon Graphics Inc. 
pcd@esd.sgi.com 415 / 390-2144
Xref: sparky ba.general:4191 misc.kids:25203 misc.legal:18107
From: owens@jonquil.uchicago.edu (Christopher Owens)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:04:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In <1ai8quINNrno@smaug.West.Sun.COM> dab@ism.isc.com (Dave Butterfield) writes:

>pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>> All you have to do is put a fence around your swimming pool.
>> If it saves just one life, it's worth it.

> Exactly to whom is it the worth the cost of a fence to put the
> fence around Mr. Sohl's swimming pool?  Let that person speak up.

I'd be happy to pay the cost of fencing *my* pool.  Jeez, those aren't
legal or economic abstractions that are going to be falling in and
drowning; they're my neices and nephews and friends' kids, who are
developmentally incapable of understanding the risks associated with
their actions, and consequently unable to resist the allure of an
unfenced pool on a hot day. I'm happy to pull my weight in making the
world a safer place for them.  It's just part of the cost of having a
pool. 

And if, tragically, my neighbor is unwilling to similarly pull his
weight, then I'm unhappily ready to use the coercive power of the
community (i.e. laws) to try to force him to do so: to make building
and maintaining a fence a legal condition of pool ownership.

Of course the kids don't belong on his property, and wouldn't be in
danger if they weren't trespassing.  Of course it's ultimately their
parents' responsibilty to keep them safe.  But that doesn't absolve
him of the moral responsibility of being a good neighbor, of taking
commonsense steps to mitigate the danger he has, by installing an
attractive nuisance, created.
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 03:59:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.165604.8251@adobe.com> pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.010529.21970@leland.Stanford.EDU> eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
>>I'm really sick of the system the way it is: I pay (thru taxes) to
>>send everybody's kids to school.
>
>I like to think of the taxes you pay as paying for the education YOU
>received in public schools. (it's not perfect, but nothing is)
>

Just to set the record straight, I/my parents PAID for my education. 
I'm not knocking one who went/goes to public schools, what the hell,
it was FREE. But I think it's a bad system.


Newsgroups: ba.general
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:32:32 GMT

In article 18532@csc.canberra.edu.au, Stacey Curtis <sec@softserver.canberra.edu.au> () writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.052455.25795@adobe.com> Phil Ngai, pngai@adobe.com
>writes:
>>Meaning that my concern is not over making it possible for the parents
>>of a child who dies in an unsecured pool to get rich. After someone
>>dies, it's too late. The idea is to prevent an accident. Unfortunately
>>the most effective means that has been found is to hold the owner
>>of the attractive nuisance responsible.
>
>If you support the view that it's the pool owner's responsibility then
>please enlighten me on the liability issues in the following scenario:  I
>own the pool, it has been securely fenced with a council approved, legal
>structure.  Without my knowledge or consent your child comes over
>(trespasses) and severely injures or kills himself/herself trying to
>scale the structure (fence) to gain access to the pool.  Am I liable?

Usually questions like this are settled in court, with *both* sides 
giving supporting arguments and presenting evidence.  True life circumstances
are often ambiguous; rarely are they clear cut and unequivocal.

According to your description, you are totally blameless, having made
every reasonable effort to protect children from what you know to be
an attractive nuisance.  The parents of the child may not agree that you
have made every reasonable effort, and they may have evidence and argument
to support this belief.  They may sue you, at which time
you would either settle out of court, or a judge/jury would decide
whether you were liable and how much.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: ba.general,rec.pets.dogs,misc.kids
From: anne@dolores.Stanford.EDU (Anne Paulson)
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Organization: Stanford University
	<1992Sep24.225445.12590@adobe.com>
	<1992Sep25.020517.29063@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Sep25.164543.21282@adobe.com>
Date: 27 Sep 92 23:21:38

In article <1992Sep25.164543.21282@adobe.com> pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
   I'm not saying it's fair. But this is the way society works as I
   understand it. Personally I keep my child under very close
   supervision.

You do?  I was under the impression that you had a full-time job at
Adobe.  Oh, you mean that you expect SOMEONE (your wife, or your
daycare) to watch your child very closely during his/her waking hours.
How much time do YOU actually spend taking care of the child?  It's
all too easy for people who don't spend a lot of time actually
watching toddlers to make pronouncements about how children should be
supervised.  OF COURSE children should be supervised.  But sometimes
they get away. The way I remember the story of the San Jose pit bull
who killed a toddler, it was that the toddler just wandered into the
pitbull's yard.  Anyone who takes care of a toddler knows that
sometimes they wander where they shouldn't.  Even under the best
supervision.


-- Anne
From: aruna@sybase.com (Aruna Mahadevan)
Newsgroups: ba.general,sybhq.atrium
Subject: Need recommendation for dentist and gyn
Date: 25 Sep 92 22:44:33 GMT
Reply-To: aruna@sybase.com (Aruna Mahadevan)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Sybase, Inc.


Hi,

I am looking for recommendations for a dentist and a gynaecologist in
or near Hayward.  

Thanks,
Aruna

--
Aruna Mahadevan, Software Engineer, Sybase, Inc.  (510) 596-3564
DSE, 305I (Atrium Southeast)  * I am not the spokesperson for Sybase *  
aruna@sybase.com or  {decwrl!ucbvax!mtxinu,pacbell,pyramid,sun}!sybase!aruna 
Youth is when you blame all your troubles on your parents; maturity is
Xref: sparky ba.general:4196 misc.kids:25214 misc.legal:18121
From: owens@jonquil.uchicago.edu (Christopher Owens)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:50:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, The Univ of Chicago

In article <1992Oct5.160210.18021@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:

>No, it's the same issue:  personal rights vs. public safety.
>
> How do you reconcile your willingness to impose an arbitrary requirement
> upon a property owner in order to make the world safer for your kid(s),
> then turn around and deny someone else to make a similar imposition
> upon you?
>

I think that the key here is to avoid requirements that are
"arbitrary". Personal and public goals inevitably come into conflict,
in which case a well-functioning system of government attempts to find
compromises that reflect, as nearly as possible, a balanced consensus
view.  As long as I feel like I got a fair hearing in the formation of
the consensus, ultimately I'm willing to live by it, even if I don't
get my way on every issue.  The pool owner probably feels that his
property rights are being restricted more than he would like, and the
parent next door probably feels like his children are protected less
well than he would choose.  A little dissatisfaction, spread evenly
among the participants, is the price of compromise.

I think the main problem people are complaining about here is not the
basic principle of the attractive nuisance, but rather the ludicrous
excess to which juries have carried the idea.  Case law differs from
legislation in that I don't feel like I have any say in the formation
of the consensus reflected in jury decisions.  Juries are not
responsible to the electorate, nor, because people who place a high
value on their time tend to use every available means to avoid jury
duty, do they reflect an unbiased sampling of the community.

Furthermore, to the extent that our society is heterogeneous and
geographically mobile, neighbors are increasingly likely to disagree
about what is "reasonable".  Finding good compromises becomes
extremely challenging, leaving more people feeling left out.
From: nevin@apple.com (Nevin ":-]" Liber)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Investing w/NY Life -- scam or good deal?
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:51:42 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

I'm being hounded by some guy from New York Life about saving and making
lots of money with them.  Since this seems like a hard sell, I'm naturally
suspicious of it.  Has anyone else been through this?  Is it even worth
listening to his story?
___
NEVIN ":-)" LIBER, RISC Porting Specialist/Blue Meanie, Mac System Software
 email:     nevin@apple.com        paper:  Apple Computer, Inc.
 voice:     (408) 974-MIX1                 20525 Mariani Avenue, MS: 81-GC
 AppleLink: BADENOV                        Cupertino, CA 95014
Xref: sparky ba.general:4096 misc.kids:24941
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:32:01 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1992Oct2.143809.15201@unet.net.com> linda@wendy.net.com (Linda Hill) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.043400.5822@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ren@Turing.ORG (Karen Prestemon) writes:
>>I was furious, and when I got home, told my husband what had happened.
>>What the hell were these people thinking?  Why didn't they take a
>>hold of him in the middle of a parking lot where there was very high
>>traffic volume?
>
>This story really has my stomach churning with anger.  And then Phil Ngai
>tops it off by telling us that we have to follow society's decision.
>Bullshit.  Maybe it's time to change that decision.

Wait a minute. I was talking about unsecured attractive nuisances.
This kind of thing is a completely different situation. And I
certainly think the parents who were described need a good talking
to, from the people involved and perhaps from Child Welfare.

>What I want to know is, why are we all so afraid/too polite/whatever to
>*say* anything to people when we see something like this going on?!  Human
>beings are one of the few species that have to *learn* how to rear their
>young.  It isn't all instinctive.  So when we see someone being an obviously
>bad parent (and I'm not talking about minor differences in parenting
>styles), why can't we step in and tell them so?!

I agree.

-- 
My opinions are my own.
Happy owner of a new Mitsubishi Expo.
Xref: sparky ba.general:4184 misc.kids:25160
From: pal@xanadu.wpd.sgi.com (Anil Pal)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids
Subject: Re: stupid consumers
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:04:59 GMT
Reply-To: pal@wpd.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Oct6.004954.7923@leland.Stanford.EDU>, eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
|> >>out of business, and then the japs rocket the price to $12 each. Who
|> >>got screwed when it was all said and done? The Fat Dumb and Happy AMERICAN.
|> 
|> Actually, I thought the Reaganomics solution was a "voluntary export
|> restraint" which was IMHO, a bad move. I don't remember the price going 
|> that high (for more than a month or two) for the part I quoted.

You still haven't answered the point that I and others raised here,
namely that the price rise in DRAMs was *not* due to monopolistic
gouging by Japanese chipmakers, but rather the result of US government
policies.

In other words, the example you based your attack on simply doesn't
hold up.  I repeat my earlier challenge - look at all the industries
currently dominated by Japanese companies (no shortage there - consumer
electronics, including TVs, VCRs, stereo components, cameras) and show
me a case where the customer is getting screwed by Japanese
manufacturers acting in concert.

-- 
Anil A. Pal
pal@sgi.com	(415)-390-5279
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 05:42:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.045247.13563@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>According to whom?  I'm aware of the legal implications, but you're about
>the last person I know who'd hide behind codified law to justify his
>opinions.
>
>From what *moral* perspective do you draw the right to impose your
>personal values on responsibility onto others, and then subject them
>to economic coercion to meet your personal agenda?

1) A parent may not even know of the existence of an a.n., as in the
turntable case prominent in this area of law.

2) The bigger an a.n. is, the more expensive to secure it. The owner
is the only one known to have the assets proportional to the size
of the a.n. The owner is also the only one with the means to secure
it. Others may not be able to obtain permission to build a fence.
The owner is the only one who can operate the gate properly.

>And what will you say to those who find handguns in the household
>to be just as grave a danger as uncovered swimming pools, and insist
>that you turn yours in?

That's a different issue. Do not most abortion advocates go around
opposing waiting periods on abortions but not on firearms purchases?
"A right delayed is a right denied", but only for the rights you
care about.

-- 
My opinions are my own.
Happy owner of a new Mitsubishi Expo.

Xref: sparky ba.general:4185 sci.anthropology:983 sci.bio:3462
From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Newsgroups: ba.general,sci.anthropology,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Darwin fish
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:02:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe) writes:

>I got the address to order Darwin fish from.  This is a magentic
>fish suitably for the back of your car, etc.  Inside the fish,
>where you'd expect to see "JESUS", it says "DARWIN", and the
>fish has feet.

>The fish are $4 each plus $2.50 shipping per order from:

>Firebird Arts & Music
>P.O. Box 14785
>Portland, OR  97214

>I'm not associated with them in any way.  I just thought
>these were funny and ordered a couple as inexpensive
>birthday presents.
>-- 
>"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
>they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
>Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
Correction (I ordered my Darwin Fish by phone last weekend;
you can get the number from   503-555-1212, directory assistance).

The price per each is now $5.00.  The friendly folks at the store said
the manufacturer and wholealer have been deluged with orders so the price
has gone up and they're ramping up production.

See you on the freeway :-)
From: steveh@grafex.Cupertino.CA.US (Steve Harding KA6ETB)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Victim support groups
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 21:40:08 PDT
Distribution: ba
Organization: The GRAFex Company

My wife and I were recently burglarized.  We were part of the lucky few
that recovered most of our stolen property.

However, my wife has taken this incident quite hard.  Is anyone aware of
any support groups for folks like us?

TNX...email and I will summarize.

steve

-- 
play:steveh@grafex.Cupertino.CA.US 408.252.0578     work:harding@nas.nasa.gov
              A prince trapped in the body of a dirty old man.
From: trit@pase60.Convergent.Com (Tri Tran)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Ikebana autumn flower show...
Keywords: flower arrangement, Oct. 24, 25
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:06:55 GMT
Distribution: ba



      I'm posting this for a friend.

      Ikebana Autumn Flower Show

Lovers of flora, art and culture: Over 100 ikebana-style flower
arrangements will be exquisitely displayed and demonstrated at Cupertino's
Quinlan Community Center. Featuring flat, upright, suspended and other
arrangement styles, this FREE exhibition is co-sponsored by the Wafukai
School of Ikebana and the City of Cupertino. Please bring your friends!

Saturday, Oct. 24  10AM to 5PM
Sunday Oct. 25     10AM to 5PM

Demonstrations at 12 and 2PM both days.

Quinlan Community Center
10185 N. Stelling Rd. (one block north of Stevens Creek Blvd.)
408-865-1384

For further information, please call Mrs. Fusako Hoyrup, president of the
California Chapter of the Wafukai School, at 408-252-6833

Thanks for your time.
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:09:36 GMT

In article <183739@pyramid.pyramid.com> rtener@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (Rex Tener) writes:

>At the natural terrain mountain lion enclosure, there was a couple
>holding their two year old over the steel bar fence so that the child
>could see the two mountain lions swimming in the moat below.  I almost
>went into shock.  I wanted to say something, but I didn't want to
>distract the father.  If he had dropped the child, the kid would have
>been dead almost instantly.

If you had said something, and his father had dropped the kid into the
pen, you'd have gotten sued.  Obviously, it was your fault.  The child
would have been fine if you hadn't butted in.

I wish I were joking, but this kind of crap happens all the time.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Xref: sparky ba.general:4187 misc.kids:25179 misc.legal:18095
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 6 Oct 92 02:52:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Oct5.202405.12460@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:

>  While I'm not a {L|l}ibertarian, I wonder why anyone would make
>such a flawed analogy (other than to start a flame.)  The analogy
>to an unfenced swimming pool would be a loaded gun left outdoors.

Before you make such a claim, you'd better be able to supply numbers
that show a huge discrepancy in the number of fatalities caused by
each.  Then explain why one is large enough to care about and the
other isn't.

>A handgun in the household would be analagous to an indoor swimming
>pool, or perhaps to a bathtub.  You may disagree with Phil, but
>that does make either you or Phil into a hypocrite.

Of course it doesn't.  But until I hear why one hazard is worth
addressing by law, and the other isn't, I'll wonder what people's
agenda really is.
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Newsgroups: sun.junk,ba.general
From: chucko@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Chuck Fry)
Subject: Re: Defensive Driving Schools
Keywords: Bondurant high-performance
Organization: Recom Technologies, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:55:44 GMT

Unfortunately Bondurant is no longer located at Sears Point.  He's
moved to the Phoenix area.  The Skip Barber school, which is
comparable in most respects and well respected in the racing world,
has taken its place.  See any recent car-nut magazine (AutoWeek, Car
and Driver, etc) for the phone number.

I took Bondurant's street driving course 8 years ago and not only got
a lot out of it, but enjoyed the experience thoroughly.  Be prepared
to work harder behind the wheel than you have ever worked before!

I think some form of driver training at a real race track is a must
for anyone who likes to drive fast.  Do it, you will not regret it!

 -- Chuck Fry  Chucko@charon.arc.nasa.gov
From: dab@ism.isc.com (Dave Butterfield)
Newsgroups: ba.general
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 6 Oct 1992 00:17:48 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis) writes:
>...you can't just start assuming everyone around you
>is going to pick up your slack.

This would appear to be a model you hold independent of reality.
-- 
                     Vote for *anybody* but Quayle!
Newsgroups: ba.general
From: sallylb@netcom.com (Sally Smith)
Subject: Free Ren Faire ticket
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:23:49 GMT

What ho and huzzah!

I have one (1) free ticket which you can use on either day this
(closing) weekend at Ren Faire in Marin. It can be yours by e-mailing
me at this address and making arrangements to pick it up.

NO PHONE CALLS! NO PHONE CALLS! NO PHONE CALLS! NO PHONE CALLS!

Sally

-- 
Sally Smith (510)790-0608  sallylb@netcom.com (I was sally@tardis.tymnet.com)
I'm unemployed--these opinions *must* be mine!
"Don't investigate this too closely." -- Don Bellisario, re: "Quantum Leap"

Xref: sparky ba.general:4119 misc.kids:24977 misc.legal:17987