HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Virtual Rooms and Objects (was: Re: MudOS a ripoff?)
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:11:24 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Sep1.132741.8748@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett) writes:
>uekleinf@mcs.Drexel.edu (Erik Kleinfelder) writes:
>
>>     Very much, but now you got me wanting to develop ODLs with you.  One last
>>thing, aren't we moving from LP to the MUSH type idea where objects are just
>>stored variables(Granted they are saved, but you get the idea)???
>
>Aren't all muds like this?  Aren't most rooms just colections of
>variables?  On most muds every room doesnt do something spectacular so
>in fact most rooms/objects are or could be like MUSH objects.  What is
>wrong with that?
>

This is exactly my point.  90% of the rooms on an LP are nothing but a 
bunch of code resembling something like:

inherit "std/room";

#ifdef COMPAT_MODE
reset(arg) {
	if (arg) return;
#else
void create() {
#endif

	set_short("The Cool Room");
	set_long(
"A large chunk of ice has entirely filled the western side of this room.\n" +
"You can't help but wonder why there are so many people standing around\n" +
"wearing sunglasses and smoking here.\n");
	set_exits( ({ "up", "down" }), 
		({ "/players/dweeb/volcano1", "/players/dweeb/volcano3" }) );
	set_light(1);
}

Notice all the set_* functions? what a waste... unless you like typing
set_this_silly_variable(value) a lot.  I'm in the process of doing away
with most of this.  In my system a single pair of functions, set() and query()
can deal with quite a lot of this stuff.

The virtual rooms can save us a lot of pain in this sort of situation.


>David.
>[DDT] Pink fish forever.
>-- 
>  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
>     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
>These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
>Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.

Adam

-- 
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#define NAME	"Adam Beeman"
#define EMAIL	"beeman@{cats, ucscb}.ucsc.edu"
inherit SIGNATURE; // enhanced .sig virus
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: demon@sequent.com (Dave Richards)
Subject: MUD Standardization Perspective
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 19:24:56 GMT


I just had an interesting discussion today that epitomizes the confusion, I
think, of what's going on right now in MUDs (especially LP).

The question people seem to be asking is "Is a standard important?"  I
believe, however, this is the wrong question.  It can probably be asked
more succintly "When will be a standard be importamt?"

In any new and growing technology you play a balancing act between
innovation and marketability.  MUDs are currently in the innovation stage.
We haven't tried everything yet.  In fact, one might say we haven't tried
lots of things yet.  The point is, once standardization with market support
exists, innovation is diminished.  If innovation still has much work to do,
you actually hurt the situation by forcing the innovators to (1) stop
innovating, or (2) admit incompatibility and move onwards fighting the
market-driven establishment at every turn, or to simply give up.

Now if there were real money to be had in this technology, one might want
to hasten this evolution for fiscal gain.  But that doesn't exist here.  My
expectation is that we still have much innovation in front of us and should
admit that for the momnet.  In the meantime, gods and wizards will continue
to write documentation and teach classes to keep everybody up to speed. And
no, this system isn't perfect, but is probably the right thing to do for the
moment.

The key question in my mind is "when should we standardize".  The obvious
follow-up might be "What should we standardize".  I'd personally let these
questions sit on the backburner for a bit.

Humbly and unemotionally stated,

	Dave - Cynosure
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: guile@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth K Lee)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 19:01:37 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <UEKLEINF.92Aug25152135@queen.mcs.Drexel.edu> uekleinf@mcs.Drexel.edu (Erik Kleinfelder) writes:
>     3.1.2 was supposed to do that.  But why get rid of the ideas and workings
>of 3.1.2 when it has not even been around for a year yet.  This is reminding
>me of some of apple's system upgrades.  One week 6.0.4 is out, then 6.0.5 is
>out and so on.  What in 3.1.2 is non-functional?

   What in 3.1.2 is non-functional?  Well, how about this question, what in
3.1.2 is lacking?  When you compare MudOS to 3.1.2, the difference is quite
substantial.  Why limit yourself to the capabilities of an outdated driver 
when you can use something better, like MudOS, or CD, or 3.1.2-DR.  When I 
started writing my mudlib for Wastelands, I began on a 3.1.2 driver, but once
I got a hold of MudOS, I never went back.  There are countless things which
MudOS, or another driver can do efficiently, which 3.1.2 cannot.  One of my
favorite features in MudOS is the system of mappings, to duplicate this in
3.1.2 requires you to use two arrays, and even this doesn't come close to the
effect of a mapping.  There are countless number of efuns in MudOS which 
should have been in 3.1.2.  3.1.2 may not be non-functional, but it doesn't
keep up with the drivers in existence.
>Geoff> each other.
>
>     Ok, fine.  But when is a MudOS mudlib still an LPmud, or isn't it.  Can
>it really be claimed that this mudlib which only works with MudOS is an
>LP mudlib or this one that only works with CD.  I do not want anyone to
>ask ANSI to make a standard for LPC, but it would be nice to have a standard,
>like 2.4.5 once was.  Everyone has these great ideas, but no one is willing
>to go for giving them and their code out.  I mean should we benefit the
>mudding community or benifit ourselves and not get known for the great work
>that was done here and there.

      As long as MudOS is an LPmud game driver, the MudOS mudlib is a LPmud
mudlib.  As for having 2.4.5 as a standard, WHY?  Why go back to something as
inefficient as 2.4.5 and it's 2000+ lines of player.c?  There are enough 
2.4.5 mudlib-based Lp's to go around, how about seeing something different
than the humpbacked bridge?
>
>Erik (Gunther God@Dragon's Den -- 129.25.7.111 2222)

[.sig]                           		Guile@engin.umich.edu
From: oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:19:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA.
Organisation: Treadstone Seventy-One


	Was just relaying one of schemes I've seen most often...
	`Hey Zeek, wanna come over and take a look at this room for me?' ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Brought to you by Treadstone Seventy-One Corporation.
--- --- --- | /  "Come not between the dragon and his wroth!"
 /  |-  |-  |(    		- Lear, King of England
--- --- --- | \
_________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Subject: 'ere we go again..
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 07:42:01 GMT

YAQ: (Yet Another Question)
When running the 1.56 LPMud, and 00.25 lib, I add domains
as per the examples given. Unfortunately the mud loses the
domainlinks after a while (say 5-6 hrs of idletime).
 I've been trying to track this down, but to no avail.
Anyone have the answer?

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo)
Subject: Re: Virtual Rooms and Objects (was: Re: MudOS a ripoff?)
Organization: Tampere U of Technology, Finland
	<1992Sep1.132741.8748@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
	<184dqsINNodv@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> <37620@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:34:06 GMT

djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes:
> FYI, we've got a virtual room system under normal 3.1.2.  (Doesn't even
> use the horrible kludge of write/load/delete of mudlib.n)
> Can have destinations set like "some_room:12", which will cause
> a function in "some_room" to be called to return the real object.
> It makes building mazes and stuff very simple while taking very
> little space, and still allows room variety also.

> A drawback, which it seems mudos gets around, is the
> file_name of the objec.  /a people command doesn't show
> "some_room:12", but something like "some_room#23122".

How do you work around the following problem:

room1.c:  add_exit("east","some_room:42"); 
This results in the creation of some_room#23122

room2.c:  add_exit("east","some_room:42");
How does this room2 know which clone of some_room is the some_room:42.

I presume some_room holds an array of some_room objects and works out
the correct object internally? This system is nowhere near the
flexibility of virtual rooms though, but a nice attempt to make them.

I just made BatMUDs streets virtual streets. This resulted in removal
of 113 files (43 of the streets were non standard and I could not use
virtual rooms), block size being 8k, disk space savings of over 800k.

Virtual rooms are an excellent idea, thanks to who ever invented them.

++Anipa, no we don't run MudOS (the LPmud ripoff), we just have a
	 modified LPmud.
--
      NN   NN  NN   NN  NNNNNNNN
    NNNN    N  NN    N  NNNNNN
  NNNNNN  N    NN  N    NNNN
NNNNNNNN  NN   NN  NN   NN
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: meetch@DIALix.oz.au (Mitchell Brandsma)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Western Australia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 14:16:42 GMT

mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:

>oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker) writes:

>>	I'll try too.  Anyone else interested?  We might just have
>>	an ANSI-LPC committee brewing here. ;-) ;-) ;-)

>Just as long as noone mentions "trigraphs"... :)

Too late!  You just did. :) :) :)

- Meetch (meetch@DIALix.oz.au :)
From: chena@crs.cl.msu.edu (Antony Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: SW Quests?
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:08:35 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:

>guile@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth K Lee) writes:

>>SOLUTIONS TO SHATTERED WORLD QUESTS
>>[...]

>*grumble*

I know that :) means a smiley and :P is someone stickin' their tongue
out, but how do you do the face for someone laughing their ass off?

Melvin@TMI
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:16:42 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>Hmm..this sounds kinda like...can't put my finger on it..communism?

Sounds pinkophobic to me :-)

>Yeah..set up a board of people who will just quibble about what to do
>and what not to do while people sit idly by waiting for them to make
>a decision.

I don't think the idea was to just sit around and talk.  I think
the idea was to actually go and do something.  Most of the modified
drivers out there have only a few bug changes (we're not talking about
TMI, CD, or Shattered).  So why not try to merge that back in.  That's
the way things were working prior to 3.1, and it worked pretty well.
And I can't see any serious objections to putting in bug fixes.

I agree that TMI won't be interested in using the resulting product.
The argument that "TMI won't use it, so it's a waste of time" is
rather silly.  It would be nice if they allowed some of their code to
be used though.  This of course assumes that not everyone there is of
the mindset "if you won't use our driver, you must be morons".
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    "I wonder what's taking Guybrush so long..."
From: ajv@xhost92.csd.mot.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: SW Quests?
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:44:22 GMT

guile@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth K Lee) writes:
>SOLUTIONS TO SHATTERED WORLD QUESTS

While I certainly agree that this spoils the sport for players of
Shattered World, I have to note that (1) I have never, and probably
will never get onto Shattered World, and (2) these quests are very
clever, and they've given me some ideas for my own quests!

I wonder if there's any way to talk about quest design without
giving away the whole game to those who have assembled such quests.

						Andy Valencia
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: michael@iastate.edu (Michael M. Huang)
Subject: Re: * PEACE PLEASE! *
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:51:56 GMT

In <17n2gvINN7c8@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:


>Ah, aren't you from Shattered Worlds?

Hmm... nope.  I was dragged kicking and screaming to there when they
first opened. :)

>Hey, can you tell me if they *really* exist anymore?

They exist and they don't exist.  It's all very trivial.

>I kinda suspect they don't, and it's a big scam where people claim
>to work on this mud that doesn't really exist, but does everything
>*much* better than we could *ever* hope to... again, it's all in the
>(trivial) implementation.

It is rumored that grad students in AU sometimes get this strange
mentality attack in which they start flaming one another in brutal
magnitude.  When they have severely toasted each other, they turn
to the unsuspecting victims of USENET.

>;-)

Oh... it was a joke... I see. :)


>#include <std/disclaimer.h>
>#define NAME	"Adam Beeman"
>#define EMAIL	"beeman@{cats, ucscb}.ucsc.edu"
>inherit SIGNATURE; // enhanced .sig virus

What a dumb sig!

-michael

-- 
Michael Ming-Yang Huang                                michael@iastate.edu
PV Student Dev. Group &                                (michaelhg@ids.net)
Carver/Vis. Lab Assist         "A mind is such a terrible thing to waste."
Iowa State Univ, Ames, IA      I speak for myself an' not of my employers.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp,rec.games.mud.misc
From: vanderwerkend@lonexc.rl.af.mil (Dan Vanderwerken)
Subject: Re: Casino type games for lp muds?
Organization: RL
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 12:02:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.195941.2558@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> ian@inf.ethz.ch (Ian) writes:
>I have one which I wrote a few months ago.
>It takes coins, monitors credits and pays out in cash, healing,
>objects, experience, inconvenience and DEATH (smirk).
>
>You'd have to hack it a touch (I'm not giving away all the associated
>objects but it would probably be good for you, post or mail if you still
>want it.
>
>Bodkin of Quovadis

I tried email'ing you but it bounced.  Would you please send me a copy of
the code you wrote for this machine?  Thanks.

---Sifu of Dragonsfire

-- 
Dan Van Der Werken          | 
Rome Laboratory/IRDO        | 
Griffiss AFB, NY 13440-5700 | 
(315) 330-3127              |
From: dbn@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Current wizards of Overdrive
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:23:42 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

Overdrivers,

We need your email addresses so that you can be kept up to date on what's
going on.  (our current email address listing is several months old.)
Please, send me your address.  If you know of any wizard who does not have
News access, let them know as well.

Thanks,
Daniel
(Florentino@Overdrive)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey)
Subject: Re: MudOS a ripoff?
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:25:02 GMT

beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:

>In article <mmcg.714900981@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:

>>Arrogance.

>Fuck you, man!

*snort*
--
Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Keywords: compat-mode, MudOS, CD, standardization, etc.
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:15:08 GMT

amylaar@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Joern Rennecke) writes:
>...
>>Lars isn't a player in this field anymore; his last driver will be a 
>>standard for people who are happy with it.  It's stable, and supports

>It's stable unless you try to use the new features or parse_command *chuckle* .

Parse_command is stable too.  It has a couple of bugs...  But it works.

I should know :)  If you want the parse_command bug fixes mail me...  I
assume the CD one also has these fixes.  Well I told em the problems so
they should have fixed it.

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: ins272u@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Geoff Green)
Subject: Re: * PEACE PLEASE! *
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:27:00 GMT

Adam Beeman (beeman@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: 
: Ah, aren't you from Shattered Worlds?
: Hey, can you tell me if they *really* exist anymore?
: I kinda suspect they don't, and it's a big scam where people claim
: to work on this mud that doesn't really exist, but does everything
: *much* better than we could *ever* hope to... again, it's all in the
: (trivial) implementation.
: 
*snicker* *laugh* *giggle*
The reason you can see us is because we are imaginary.
Just turn your terminal 90 degrees to reality and then try :)

Zaphoid of Shattered World.
--
Geoff Green.
Snail Mail :-			E-Mail :-
~~~~~~~~~~		        ~~~~~~
4/8 Dennis st,			ins272u@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au
Clayton Victoria,		ins272u@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
Australia.  3861.		greenie@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
(03) 562 9849.
#include <std_disclamer.h>
#include <witty_quote.h>
From: lipscomb@lonestar.utsa.edu (David S. Lipscomb)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Player-killing muds
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:03:56 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

In article <1992Sep2.211106.12908@ms.uky.edu> diane@mik.uky.edu (diane lynn benham) writes:
>Anybody know of any player killing muds other than Genocide?
>If so, what are the addresses?
>
>Please reply to this account!

Reply to me as well.  lipscomb@lonestar.utsa.edu
>
>diane@mik.uky.edu
From: beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: driver bugfixes (was: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****)
Date: 29 Aug 92 03:19:15 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <37417@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) writes:
>
>>and so it *misses* this check for the maximum evaluations, and the game
>>hangs until someone comes along to kill the processes.
>
>I can't find anything relevant in the (huge) diffs.  Or is this something
>fixed in 0.9?
>

We think so.  There's still a few things I should test... mostly stuff
like errors hit when crash() gets called at crash time might send it
into recursion, things like that, which may or may not exist in your version.
There have been a few things of this nature fixed, though.


>-- 
>Darin Johnson
>djohnson@ucsd.edu
>  - Grad school - just say no.

-Adam, some call me Buddha@TMI

-- 
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#define NAME	"Adam Beeman"
#define EMAIL	"beeman@{cats, ucscb}.ucsc.edu"
inherit SIGNATURE; // enhanced .sig virus
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:01:21 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>Problems with the 3.1.2 driver...hmm..here's some I thought of off hand.

Hmm, are you *sure* you're talking about 3.1.2??

>     * snoop-loops

These were removed prior to 3.1.2.  Apparently, lots of people knew
about this bug, but didn't say anything.  Got fixed next release after
I sent in the bug report.

>     * memory disappearing when object with error is loaded

Hmm, I seem to recall this was fixed.  A quick glance shows epilog()
does the same thing in MudOS (0.8.14) and 3.1.2.

>     * inherit chains

Er, what are these?

>     * recursion problems

What problems?  There is a max function call depth.  If you think it's
too low, raise it.

>     * non-portability unless you're a GD god where you probably should write
>       one on your own to suit your own needs

And MudOS is more portable?  Sure, it's been ported to "major" machines.
With LP, everytime something didn't compile right, Lars fixed it in the
next release.

>     * shitty documentation..(Lars may be smart, but there aren't enough docs

If you get MudOS *without* the mudlib, there are pitifully few docs.
Maybe the idea of documentation here is having to log in to TMI to
read them?  (at the very least, include a readme file that says where
to get them, how to ftp, etc)

> Antony Chen aka MELVIN @ University of Michigan, Ann Arbor

Hmm, weren't you the guy I kicked off my mud for being a jerk?
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    "I wonder what's taking Guybrush so long..."
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: fontenot@ravl.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques Fontenot)
Subject: Re: MudOS a ripoff?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:21:33 GMT

In article <geoff.714897612@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> geoff@cs.monash.edu.au (Geoff Wong) writes:
>fontenot@ravl.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques Fontenot) writes:
>
>>In article <geoff.714882644@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au> geoff@cs.monash.edu.au (Geoff Wong) writes:
>>>jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop) writes:
>>>
>
>>Good for you. Did you release it? I have not seen it.
>
>Yeah - in fact we did; you probably hadn't made it out of high school
>then. Undergrads are all the same.

well...actually, I had. See, for all your intelligence, how could you know
that I have been reading your's and Mike's postings from the very beginning?
And I contest the above statement. You and Mike are constantly posting
teasers -- "yeh..I did that a million years before your great grandfather
was born..and even then I did it a googleplex times better than you".

Sure, you may have posted many buzzword-filled articles with things like
"implementation is trivial, so I won't bother to tell you how I did it",
but the only thing helped by that is your egos.

And before you come screaming back with "proof" that you released your code,
perhaps we should define "release". Do you mean you gave it to a few
priveleged friends? See, if you actually released it, where is it?
And if it's so great (and released), why is nobody but you using it?

And, yeh...a couple times you posted some stuff that vaguely looked like
code but...see above.

>>"Simply makes the code easier to work on"...simply. Can't have that, can
>>we? Ho Hum.
>
>No one was interested 18 months ago - why is it such a big deal now?

People *were* interested. And the only one making a big deal out of it now
is you.

>>I notice you say nothing about the virtual objects. But, perhaps they are
>>not even worth your comment. Ho Hum after all.
>
>You're correct - they're not.

hmmm....are you having an off day? I expected better from you than this.

>geoff
>--
>Ho Hum.
>The vorpal blade went snicker-snack.

Dwayne Fontenot (Jacques@TMI)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp