HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: RE: Hello
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 8:06:45 -0400 (EDT)

>From: 21010JIS@MSU
>Newsgroups: alt.messianic
>Subject: Hello
>
>Hello. I hadn't intended to introduce myself immediately,but one of
>my attempts to forward material from here to someone else accidently got
>posted on your net, so I figured I'd better say something intelligible
>to explain. I'm Joe Scully, I'm a Jewish believer from East Lansing, MI.
>and a doctoral candidate up here at Michigan State in Marketing and Inter-
>national Business.

  Shalom! And welcome to alt.Messianic. My name is Bruce Benning, and
  I am from Clevelands own Messianic Congregation "Tikvat Yisrael."

>I recently placed an ad in the Messianic Times inviting electronic
>fellowship. One of those responding alerted me to you.

  That was a good idea. I haven't received the Messianic Times since...
  well it has been a few months. When I begin to receive MT's again I
  will have to make a point of looking for ad's such as yours Joe.

> Question: I am
>zipping those who responded a list of the Christian BBSs I'm aware
>of (Christi, Elenchus/Christianity in Antiquity, BStudy-L, etc.). Would
>those of you on this list have any objection to me adding alt.messianic
>to the resource list I'm sending? If not, I will state that your
>list is theologically centered or whatever other caveat you desire.

  I would have no objections.

>Also, I have a friend at Wayne State who is also Jewish believer and comes
>from a much more rabbinical background than I. He is interested in your
>group but does not have access to news readers. Is there another way for
>him to access your group?
>
>In Messiah,
>
>Joe Scully

   Currently, we have some people who have access to alt.messianic that
   send posts to those who don't. Also those who wish to post an article
   can post through the same person who feeds them A.M. articles.
   If you have access to A.M. you can extract the articles and send a
   package to your friend via e-mail.

Welcome to the group brother,

         Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

         -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
         ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:19:36 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

>>>> Bill Carlson:
>>>>     Now?  What about tractate "Toldot Yeshu".  It obviously was
>>>>     written with an ax to grind.

>> Rob Levene:
>>> Lighten up, Bill.  Ever hear of satire?  This may well be the
>>> oldest known example of Jewish literary humor.
> 
>Bruce Tiffany:
>> I find making HaShem the butt of satire to be *HIGHLY* offensive.
>
> Rob Levene:
>
>Think of "Toldot Yeshu' in context: an oppressed people coping with
>medieval Church persecution by making an internal satire of their
>oppressor's faith.  Since those who persecuted Jews obviously weren't
>True Christians (right?), then "Toldot Yeshu" couldn't be making fun
>of Christianity, and there's no cause for concern.

I understand your point, and yes, they weren't Christians, but the end result
is that what true Christians believe is satirized.  So, while I understand
how it came to pass, I still find such satire offensive.  Nevertheless, I
haven't read it myself, so I won't say anything further on it.

-- BT
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:22:54 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

>RL>> Think of "Toldot Yeshu' in context: an oppressed people coping with
>>> medieval Church persecution by making an internal satire of their
>>> oppressor's faith.  Since those who persecuted Jews obviously weren't
>>> True Christians (right?), then "Toldot Yeshu" couldn't be making fun
>>> of Christianity, and there's no cause for concern.
> 
>BT> I understand your point, and yes, they weren't Christians, but the
>> end result is that what true Christians believe is satirized.  So,
>> while I understand how it came to pass, I still find such satire
>> offensive.
> 
>Bill Carlson used expressions like "NO HUMOR ABOUT IT," "putrid," and
>"indefensible" to describe Toldot Yeshu.

Well, maybe he read it, and that's how he knows.

>  I don't understand all this righteous indignation if the religion
>being satirized wasn't True Christianity.

Once, again, you're choosing to ignore what I wrote (and smirking as you do):

BT>I understand your point, and yes, they weren't Christians, but the
BT> end result is that what true Christians believe is satirized.  

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: 21010JIS@MSU
Subject: Hello
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: 12 Oct 1992 12:33:07 EDT

Hello. I hadn't intended to introduce myself immediately,but one of
my attempts to forward material from here to someone else accidently got
posted on your net, so I figured I'd better say something intelligible
to explain. I'm Joe Scully, I'm a Jewish believer from East Lansing, MI.
and a doctoral candidate up here at Michigan State in Marketing and Inter-
national Business.

I recently placed an ad in the Messianic Times inviting electronic
fellowship. One of those responding alerted me to you. Question: I am
zipping those who responded a list of the Christian BBSs I'm aware
of (Christi, Elenchus/Christianity in Antiquity, BStudy-L, etc.). Would
those of you on this list have any objection to me adding alt.messianic
to the resource list I'm sending? If not, I will state that your
list is theologically centered or whatever other caveat you desire.

Also, I have a friend at Wayne State who is also Jewish believer and comes
from a much more rabbinical background than I. He is interested in your
group but does not have access to news readers. Is there another way for
him to access your group?

In Messiah,

Joe Scully
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Very Old Question For Rob Levene
Date: 6 Oct 92 02:47:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu

 RAL> Date: 5 Oct 92 18:32:41 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9210051831.AA15185@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> 
 RAL> Laura Manninen writes:
 
 LM> Chabad has declared the Rebbe dead. (I'm afraid I threw away the
 LM> newspaper where I saw that...)

          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene to Laura Manninen <=-
 RAL> My friends in Chabad inform me that the Rebbe is alive, and even
 RAL> addressed his community this past Rosh Hashana.  Perhaps your
 RAL> newspaper's translation was faulty.

     I had a copy of the article on disk until recently, and deleted
     it - I'm sure someone will come up with it soon again.

     Basically, it maintained that the Rabbinim had 'accounted' the
     Brooklyn Rebbe, due to his illness, as though he had 'died'.
     And thus fulfilled the requirement of the suffering Messiah.

     [Oy!  And they say Messianic's reach strange conclusions!]

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 11 Oct 92 13:51:49 GMT
	<LJMORLY.92Oct8101204@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1992Oct8.173049.5407@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Organization: University of Turku

In article <1992Oct8.173049.5407@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Oct8101204@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >In article <1992Oct05.202224.35571@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
> >> In article <1992Oct2.084714.18025@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
> >
> >
> >> |> 2) Rejection of Yeshua is the effect of Rabbinic principles which were
> >> |> designed to produce that effect.
> >
> >> Please post one of the "Rabbinic principles" which you claim was *designed*
> >> to produce the effect of rejecting Jesus. 
> >
> >Hillel Markowitz just did that.

> To clarify this statement which gives the wrong impression, I
> posted a translation of the RAMBAM's Chapter's 11
> and 12 Hilchos Melachim from the Mishne Tora.  Any claim that it
> was "designed" to produce the effect of rejecting y"shu, shabtai
> tzvi, or the great pumpkin is totally false.  It is part of an
> analysis of the Torah which preexisted xianity and whose principles
> have the effect of denying false messiahs.

<sigh> (For others than Hillel:) Just read the above and you'll see 
perfectly well what I meant. Hillel, for your own sake it would be 
better to stop cursing Hashem. And what is your basis to claim that
Yeshua is a false Messiah ?

> >Rabbinic Judaism is a relationship with Rabbis,
> >Messianic Judaism is a relationship with the Messiah Yeshua.

> Torah Judaism is a relationship with Hashem

Exactly. Now, which one is Torah Judaism, MJism or RJism ?

- Laura

--
Rabbinic Judaism is a relationship with Rabbis,
Messianic Judaism is a relationship with the Messiah Yeshua.
From: baba@Tymnet.com (Duane Hentrich)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Playboy/Men/Feminists
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:41:31 GMT
Organization: BT North America, San Jose CA.

In the new movie _Sneakers_ the sound man is introduced to the audience
while reading a Braille Playboy during a stakeout. Don't know if it's 
authentic, but it made me chuckle.

-- 
d'baba Duane M. Hentrich	baba@Tymnet.Com

We have yet to learn that the thing uttered in words is not therefore affirmed. It must affirm itself, or no forms of logic or of oath can give it evidence. 
The sentence must also contain its own apology for being spoken. - R.W.Emerson
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Who's responsible in rape? (Was Re: Observations from male studentnt)
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:17:33 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>>I'll remember that next time it rains.  (I guess accepting responsibility
>>for the rain is the first step in making it stop, right?)
 
>Part of accepting responsibility for the rain is using an umbrella...

Do you really mean to say that?

Dave -- you and I -- we share absolutely *no* responsilibity for the
rain.  Snow either.  Not even tornados.  It's true.  Really.

If you choose to believe/argue otherwise, you have no place in rational
debate.

rini
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: The meeting in Samarkand (Was Re: You are responsible for everyth...)
Date: 16 Oct 92 11:57:56 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: The Scorpions Nest

In article <1992Oct15.235421.28196@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> 
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>It's all a matter of definition. If I run into bad luck, then perhaps
>the choice I made was not reasonable and I failed to see why...

Have you ever heard the story about the meeting in Samarkand?
(sp? a name of a city near Iran.)
From: muffy@anableps.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Playboy
Date: 9 Oct 92 09:43:52
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Oct9.084305.12233@leland.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: anableps.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU's message of Fri, 9 Oct 92 08:43:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.084305.12233@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.171430.1@vms.cis.pitt.edu> tjw+@pitt.edu writes:
>>In article <MUFFY.92Oct8104958@remarque.berkeley.edu>, muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>> Finally, just look at how sex is viewed in general.  It's something to
>>> be done in secret - my SO and I get negative comments if we kiss in
>>> public, because that's not something that "should be" displayed.  
>>
>>Who tells you this?  I kiss all the time in public and have never been told
>>that I shouldn't be doing it?  Maybe that's a difference between CA and PA?

>And maybe it's the difference between having a s.o. of the same sex
>vs. one of the opposite sex?

*smile*...no, actually, this is my SO of the opposite sex.  I haven't
met a woman yet who will be that physically affectionate in public with
me...still hoping, though...*GRIN*.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: The "feminist agenda"? (Was: Women as Victims)
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:07:39 GMT
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

>gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>You mean the issue upholding the Canadian laws?  I haven't
>seen it either.  But those issues of _Ms_ that I have seen
>have generally contained diverse viewpoints.  

Okay, let's make a deal then.  I will give you the reference
to one issue (I think I can come up with two, in fact) which 
uphold the Canadian laws as a victory.  Now can you tell me 
which issue(s) contradict that opinion?  I am genuinely 
intrested.

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: You are responsible for everything that happens to you
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:29:02 GMT

In article <7638@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.175404.3565@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>> tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood) writes:
>>>Taking responsibility for one's life is important.  But you do have to
>>>remember that no matter how "good" ones choices are, you still can run
>>>up against "bad luck".  You have to make reasonable choices and take the
>>>risks associated with living in a free society.
>
>> Let's take this one step further...
>
>> If you are encountering "bad luck", could it be life's way of trying
>> to tell you something?
>
>I'm not quite sure what you mean.
>
>If you go into a McDonalds and a crazed gun-man comes in behind you and
>starts shooting (which is very, very BAD LUCK) I'm not sure that LIFE is
>telling you much.  (This was the example I had in mind when I penned the
>above, by the way).  There are times when, no matter what reasonable choices
>you make, you are going to run into "bad luck".  The saying "I was in the
>wrong place at the wrong time" applies here.


I think the crutial difference here is that while you are responsible
for the things that -you- do, you are not responsible for things others
do (like the gunman). The others have the same responsibility for their
actions that you have for yours. To claim responsibility for everything
that happens is to claim responsibility for others, which you do not
have. (with the exception of minors)

On the other hand, if you really do eat at McDonalds...
 
>On the other hand, if you fail at every turn in life, you need to consider
>whether your choices contribute to your problems.  This is where the saying
>"you are responsible..." comes into play.
>
>Terry

Rich

payner@netcom.com


Xref: sparky alt.feminism:2304 soc.men:17540
From: tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Flashers and Denial on soc.feminism
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:52:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <Bvv8oI.Iyt@cs.psu.edu>, beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:

> I would have considered this a flame against anybody claiming feminism
> does not address equality for men.  The "equality argument" need not
> be as extreme as your straw woman above.  It is interesting that it was 
> accepted to soc.feminism.

You can't blame Muffy for that one!  The article was approved by
tittle@ics.uci.edu so it must have been appropriate to feminism!

Terry
-- 
        INTERNET: tjw+@pitt.edu         BITNET: TJW@PITTVMS
"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!"                        - Lord "John" Warfin
"There can be only one!"                                  - The Highlander
"There should have been only one. I want my money back!"  - Terry
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Why Gordon Is a Feminist
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:35:31 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences

In article <718833385@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
>In article <1992Oct11.151548.28112@panix.com>gcf@panix.com(Gordon Fitch) writes:
>
>>I don't know what to do about the condition of men.  
>
>Of course not.
>
>You can't understand men who have life experiences which are *different*
>than yours, and you will not change your theory so it will fit reality.
>
>>There's no credible movement to 
>>liberate them -- except feminism, of course.
>
>In what ways feminism "liberates" men?
>
>Please tell me about actions.  (And leave the long stories
>about your good intentions to some other time.)

If nothing else, feminism has had a large part of "liberating" men from being
forced into the stereo-typical macho image...
$.02
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:2381 soc.men:17592 soc.women:17576
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: _Backlash_ ( Sort of )
Date: 3 Oct 92 09:05:36 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: Nefolet shel nemushot (Fallout of Wimps)

In article <MUFFY.92Oct2120550@remarque.berkeley.edu> 
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>Rather than "re-posts," shall we say "quotes out of context?"  To

I posted your article *in full*.

>re-supply the context:  Hillel claimed that women frequently lie about
>having used birth control so that they can get a man to get them
>pregnant and then use that to make him support them and the child for
>years.  

That's not what I said; please feel free to read soc.feminism
archive if you want to check that.

I said that the law let the woman the legal right to lie and then to
take the man to the cleaners, and feminists like you defended this law.
(And I'll quote your article once again if you will dispute that.)

>me email, if you want answers to these burning questions.  Anyway, yes,
>I would recommend sterilization or not having sex with men to any woman
>who believed  that all men were lying about birth control in order to
>get them  pregnant.  Somehow, though, I haven't met/seen posts from a
>woman who was this paranoid yet.

Because women have an option in such cases - abortion.  
(Talk sometimes with women who had sex before 1974 and get a *clue*.)

>Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu

Hillel                                           gazit@cs.duke.edu

"Moderated newsgroups are set up and run by industrial-strength
control queens as jealous of their monopoly as a five-year-old 
with his first chocolate bunny."  --  STella@xanadu.com
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Double Standards for Insensitivity
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:03:37 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

bena@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling) writes:

>Q: What is the technical term for the useless piece of flesh around the
>penis. ?

A:  a sex partner

(how's that for a non-gender-specific retort?!)

							--  Michal
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: soc.feminism.unmoderated, anyone?
Date: 15 Oct 92 11:51:04 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

It would be simpler and less confusing to call the new
group talk.feminism.  The nomenclature would then correspond
with some other groups where the soc group is moderated and
the talk group isn't.

There's the question of distribution, of course, but 
several months ago I found that there were at least three
sites where soc.feminism did not appear although the
talk groups and others did.  I suspect that the SAs of
these sites cut out anything with "feminism" in the
name.  You can draw what conclusion you like about 
their motivation.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
From: isar@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Clinton Gore position on women
Date: 16 Oct 92 10:39:04 -0300
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <719002497@lear.cs.duke.edu>, gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:
> #OK, we all heard all the stories how feminism is for equality,
> #and Muffy even said that she is for choice for men, now we see 
> #what happens in the political reality.
> 
> #Should feminism be judged by the nice talk of Muffy & Gordon, or
> #by the political programs and laws that feminists push?
> 
> In article <1992Oct13.161314.375@ils.nwu.edu> 
> lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
> 
>>You are absolutely right to complain about the sexism of these laws, but
>>Do you *really* think these laws are stated the way the *majority* of 
>>feminists want them?
> 
> Have you ever heard any feminist outside of the net who supports
> "choice for men"?
> 
> Don't you read the demands of NOW for a crack down on fathers who
> don't pay child's support, no matter why they don't pay?

8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


  This ARGHument always quacks me up.  So there is to be a valid excuse to
exempt men from paying child support.  What about women?  What do you say to
your child?? " Uh....listen here sweetie, mom's out of work, and the welfare
cheque was spent on the rent and I've been sick and bedridden, not to
speak of the nervous breakdown and the lawyer's fees, so this month we have to
skip eating, ok????  I know you'll prbably freeze to death w/out heat and a
winter coat, but hey, I just don't have the money, so i guess that's that..."

  You seem to forget that regardless of where the money comes from, a 
custodial parent is ALWAYS responsible for meeting the needs of the child.
There is no court ruling to excuse a mother from feeding and clothing her
children.


8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


> 
Isabel R.
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Women as Victims (was:_Backlash_ ( Sort of ))
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:22:16 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences

In article <DSTEINBE.92Oct10202644@emmy.nmsu.edu> dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.074719.23829@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>
>   Is it reasonable to expect a Jewish worker to share an office with
>   someone who puts up Hitler posters?  How uncomfortable can you make
>   someone until your actions and/or speech become harassment?
>
>Are these two things really compatable?  I don't think that there is
>the same level of offensiveness perceived by most women to a pin-up
>calendar as there is with a Hitler poster.  Of course, when was the
>last time that you went to an office and saw a picture of gool ol'
>Adolph anyway? 

Does it have to be compatable?  If it's offensive enough for someone to ask you
to take it down, isn't that enough?

BTW, I assume we are in agreement that while most women would find a Hitler
poster more offensive, some people would find it "compatably" offensive, and
there may even be some people who would find a pin-up more offensive.
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men