From: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com (Thinh N. Nguyen)
Subject: [POL] Re: Ly' Thuye^'t DDu+a Nu+o+'c ...
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu
Reply-To: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com
Organization: SCV Relay
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:51:11 GMT

Hi netters:

I saw Thi.nh trung Nguye^~n posting in SCV last week that, in my opinion, more 
like an honest effort to express his ideas and initiate some discussion on the 
subject. First there are two things about Thi.nh that I like already: 

1. He has a great name.

2. He has admirable courage. I just hope that you keep signing your name 
correctly when you make enemies out of these people.

Seriously, I believe Thi.nh has some good points. I hope he would be more 
specific. His posting said:
	
>Theo ta.i ha. nghi~ ngu+o+`i Vie^.t chu'ng ta kho^ng -du+o+.c -doa`n ke^'t la` ta.i
>do ba nho'm ngu+o+`i pha' hoa.i.  
>
	.
	.
	.

Before I have a chance to discuss the matter, came a reply from Mr. David To to
lecture Thi.nh about every thing from Ly' To^'ng to si~ quan HO [enclosing]. 
Well, I have some time now and for the shake of convenient I would like to 
express my humble opinion on both postings. According to Thi.nh, the first 
group are:

>Nho'm thu+' nha^'t la` -da'm la?nh tu. co^.ng sa?n gi`a nua.  Chu'ng no' -du+a
>nu+o+'c chu'ng ta to+'i ha`ng thu+' ba tre^n the^' gio+i'.  Ba(`ng chu+'ng la` 45
>n(m ho+n, da^n chu'ng ta va^?n so^'ng trong ngheo` -do'i va` la.c ha^.u do gia'o 
>-de^`u ngu su?ng cu?a co^.ng sa?n.
 
Not a lot of people in SCV or anywhere can disagree with that. This is too easy!

The second group in his list is where the controversal will start as I expected. 
He stated:

>Nho'm thu+' hai la` nho'm la?nh -da.o kha'ng chie^'n cho^'ng co^.ng.  Nho'm na`y la`
>do nhu+~ng te^n tham nhu~ng la`m cho ma^'t nu+o+'c.  Nay bi. ma^'t chi'nh quye^`n,
>kho^ng co' quye^`n lu+.c -de^? ma` tham nhu~ng, so^'ng sung su+o+'ng tre^n xu+o+ng
>ma'u cu?a -do^`ng ba`o, nhu+ la` -da'm vie^.t co^.ng hie^.n nay.  Cho ne^n chu'ng
>mo+'i lo+.i du.ng su+. -da^u kho^? cu?a nha^n da^n.  Ke^u go.i nha^n da^n la`m ca'ch
>ma.ng -de^? chu'ng co' co+ ho^.i tro+? ve^` so^'ng tre^n xu+o+ng ma'u cu?a -do^`ng 
>ba`o la^`n thu+' hai.

Someone could get kill for this. Personally, I don't believe in generalize all
la?nh dda.o kha'ng chie^'n cho^'ng co^.ng together and accusing them of the
above mentioned crimes but there are some of them that would fit the description 
to the teeth. There are some similarities between the communist leaders who have 
robbed freedom from Vietnamese and the ex-leaders of the old regime who robbed 
moneys from them. They both know nothing but fighting and cannot work together.
Just how much the ex-leaders control and finance the "la?nh dda.o kha'ng chie^'n 
cho^'ng co^.ng" (LDKCCC) is still to be determined.

The LDKCCC control most of the political activities amongst the Vietnamese in US 
and create a small circle of extreme right wings Vietnamese and the only ticket 
to get in is the ability to say: "A good communist is a dead communist." ten 
times real quick. If this is what they are believed in then it's fine with me,
but in doing this they are alienated many bright young Vietnamese with a 
more moderate political inclination. While working in the Democrat 92 campaign,
I have met many extremely intelligent, young Vietnameses who because they don't
believe in those leaders who avocates Vietnamese killing Vietnamese don't want 
to particate in Vietnamese politics. 

Their best tactic is usually put a VC label on anyone who questions their 
actions or agendas. For example, instead of explaining to Thi.nh and all of
us why he didn't agree with Thi.nh's posting, netter David To cleverly "chu.p mu~" 
Thi.nh and list all the issues as if their are results of the "kha'ng chie^'n 
cho^'ng co^.ng" organizations. I question whether the LDKCCC really care about 
the problems of Vietnamese in the camps or they would rather march in parades 
with ex_GI and soldiers-of-fortunes. I sincerely believe David To is a caring, 
concern Vietnamese but I resent his tactic.

There will not be any harmony in SCV as long as people still using this old 
tactic. I myself has been called VC in serveral occasion for disagreeing with 
the extreme right doctrine. This kind of accusation can be very painful for 
those who were victim of the communist brutality themself. Let's be realistic, 
no one in their right mind would believe that communism would work and it's 
not even fashionable to be a communist anymore.

Take a closer look. We are your children, your younger brothers and sisters and
we just disagree. If for some reason we became communists then, with all due 
respects, that because you didn't set a good example. May be SCV netters have 
been fighing for over 2 years over some old religious issues because they were 
growing up watching an entire generation of Vietnamese trying to kill each 
others for more than 45 years.

We are those you claimed to have protected and nurtured. The only problem is we 
actually grew up and we are asking questions. When you told us that we must 
kill our brothers and sisters because their are communists, we will question 
your motives. If you said that you fought to protect our freedom then try to 
bully us when we disagree with you, we will ask whether you were really 
protected us or the corrupted government that you worked for.

American had elected Bill Clinton (and rightly so I may add), a person who
demonstrated against the government involment in Vietnam, is a clear
indication that they are willing to put the war behind them. Why can't we?

About whether Ly' To^'ng is a hero or not. I think that if someone post
an article saying that Ly' To^'ng is a hero. TTN had every right to express
his opinion otherwise. You cannot force your heros down someone throat and 
bully him when he has doubt.

My hero is the person[s] who can sit both the communist leaders in Vietnam 
and the LDKCCC down and force them to work together peacefully to give 
Vietnamese basic human rights and the wealth they deserve. The German did 
it. The Korean is doing it and China and Hongkong is preparing to do it. 
Why can't we?.


>Nho'm thu+' ba la` nho'm la?nh -da.o to^n gia'o.  Nho'm na`y kho^ng lo giu'p da^n
>ma` luo^n la`m chia re? da^n chu'ng.  -De^? ga^y ne^n nhu+~ng chie^'n tranh to^n
>gia'o.

I think that if any la?nh dda.o to^m gia'o in involved in politic, he/she 
should be treated as a politician. Beside, I don't remember Vietnam ever had 
a real religious war, do you?

I would like to add one more group to Thi.nh trung Nguye^~n list. This group 
is us, yes, YOU AND I. Pointing finger at the communist or the blood brokers 
won't make them go away. We as the younger, slightly better educated Vietnamese 
must get involved with the political process of making Vietnam a better country. 
We must stand up and make our own political points known. We must clearly 
distinguish which program is effective against the communist regime and which 
program is punishing the innocent Vietnameses. We must use our communication 
skills, expertises and knowledge of the American culture to implement these 
programs effectively. How can we just stand by and let some leaders of a 
corrupted regime represent us all over the world and the "sex tourists" 
and "yellow colonists" speak for the Vietnamese-American in Vietnam? 

Jean Jacques Rousseau said: "People deserves the kind of government they 
are having." If we don't have the time to get involved, how do we expect 
the young Vietnamese in Vietnam who struggle for daily meals to stand up 
to the repressive government. If we don't stand up to the LDKCCC because 
they may called us VCs then how do we expect the farmers in Vietnam to 
fight against government guns and death camps.

Unlike TTN, I don't really think these ex-leaders are a major part of the 
problems right now but I don't believe that their have the capabilities 
to improve the condition in Vietnam either. Not unless they start to change 
now to be less selfish and more understanding of other Vietnameses. Communist 
is not the only kind of government that could bankcrupt a country for 
generations. Just look at countries like Haitii and Philipine. Remember 
that these people had ran South Vietnam to the ground with corruptions 
and bad judments. 

I would like to see a strong, united organization of young Vietnamese with 
the policy of settling differences without killing, a policy of anti-communist 
and anti-dictatorship, a policy of compassion and not hatred.

Personally, I think TTN was just trying to start some discussion on a very 
interesting subject and should be encouraged. The political situation in 
Vietnam and of Vietnameses oversea is a subject we must address but we all 
have to be carefull and specific with our accusation. Being united means 
we are working toward the same goal to make Vietnam a better country and 
not necessary means we all have to follow the same leaders.


Thank you for your attentions,

Thi.nh ngo.c Nguye^~n 


> Dear netters,
> 
> Nguye^~n Trung Thi.nh has certainly made me felt uneasy within the past 
> few days with his unjust attack on the effort of many oversea Vietnamese
> fighting for freedom, democracy, and human rights in Vietnam.  First it 
> was his denunciation of Ly Tong, and now on the overall effort of everyone 
> oversea fighting VN communists.  I would like to take this opportunity to 
> respond to his outrageous condemnation.  And yes, I am reponding 
> reluctantly on this public forum, on Mr. Thinh's term, because I believe 
> Mr. Thinh wants to keep alive and carry on these sort of unconstructive 
> debates in public to divert our attention from working together toward our 
> common goals: fighting for freedom, democracy, and human rights for Vietnam, 
> helping the boat people effort, working with the future US administration 
> to include our voices in their Southeast Asia policy, etc.
> 
> Mr. Nguyen Trung Thinh, not to be confused with Mr. Thinh N. Nguyen at
> uu.psi.com, has lumped together in one breath the Vietnamese communist 
> government, the oversea anti-communist movement, and the current religious 
> coalition movement as three institutions currently oppressing the VNese 
> people.  Instead of reponding point for point, lets get real here, all of 
> us are mature enough to recognize that there's no need to respond to this 
> type of outrageous and groundless condemnation.  Mr. Thinh dropped
> controversial bombs one after the other on SCV.  This suspiciously looks 
> like the behavior of a couple of netters currently bashing religion on SCV
> to disrupt the harmony we have enjoyed on this forum for the past few months.
> Therefore I sincerely ask everybody to *ignore* Mr. Thinh's taunting 
> articles and instead focus our attention on the LAVAS fund raising effort 
> on the net, or other worthy causes.  I want to end the discussion on this 
> fruitless subject right here because the longer we drag it out, the further 
> we are away from working together.  SCV should be a breath of fresh air, 
> in my opinion, not a place to create rifts and divisions.
> 
> Before ending, I just cannot resist asking Mr. Thinh a couple of questions.  
> If Mr. Thinh really cares about the VNese people as his article has clearly
> stated, I would like to hear his opinion on the following subjects:
> 
> 1) Boat people
>    Tens of thousands of Vietnamese boat people are currently stranded in 
>    refugee camp, denied of political asylum, and  are physically forced to go 
>    back to VN.
>    What does Mr. Thinh propose to do?
> 2) Orphans in refugee camp
>    Thousands of tre? mo^` co^i, orphans, face a bleak future in refugee
>    camp without educations, proper nutrition, or a nice family environment.
>    What does Mr. Thinh propose to do?
> 3) Human rights and freedom in VN
>    People still have no decent basic human rights in VN.  No freedom of
>    speech, movements, associations, religious belief, home privacy, etc.
>    What does Mr. Thinh propose to do?
> 4) Ca'c gia ddi`nh cu+.u si~ quan HO vu+a` ddi.nh cu+ ta.i My~
>    Nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i si~ quan du~ng ca?m cu?a VNCH va` gia ddi`nh cu?a 
>    ho. ddang ga(.p nhie^`u tro+? nga.i ve^` va^'n dde^` ngo^n ngu+~
>    va` ho^.i nha^.p va`o ddo+`i so^'ng ta.i My~.  Tu+` hu+o+'ng da^~n
>    cho to+'i vie^.n tro+. ba(`ng va^.t cha^'t hoa(.c tinh tha^`n, dda^y
>    la` lu'c chu'ng ta ca^`n tra? co^ng o+n cu?a ho. dda~ gi`n giu+~
>    que^ hu+o+ng ye^n a^'m cho chu'ng ta lo+'n le^n.
>    What does Mr. Thinh propose to do?
> 
> These are the issues that I would like to hear Mr. Thinh's opinion.
> Mr. Thinh, please respond.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David.