HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:53:30 GMT

mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern) writes:

> A 'secular society' is a euphemism.  There can be no truly 'secular'
> society, since there would be nothing to keep it together.  Contemporary
> US has come pretty close lately, but if you believe that we a re a 
> 'secular' state, take a field trip to a shopping mall this week!

Now I have to respond...

You, sir, are mistaking the concept of institutionalized religion with
the fact that a majority of Americans may subscribe to one religion
over another.  I have no concern for the fact that a majority of
Americans are X-ians.  I also have no problem with the fact that
because the majority ARE x-ians, our culture and social rules will
reflect that.  Of course stores will gear up for x-mas, of course
we will be bombarded by x-ian symbols and concepts.

The issue is whether or not we will allow x-ianity to become
institutionalized by allowing tax dollars and public servants
to expend themselves in promoting religious customs and
concepts.  I am not willing to do this, and neither should you be
if you are concerned with religious freedom - because 
institutionalization of one religion is the first step toward eliminating 
all others.  That is why if fight Menorah lightings as fiercely as 
publicly payed for x-mas trees.  After all, if we don't maintain the 
state/church seperation, no one will.  x-ianity is, after all, a 
proselytizing religion and thus has no qualms about publicly and loudly 
proclaiming their faith, nor do they care if we spend tax dollars to do 
so.  Did you watch the Republican convention?  Did you hear them call 
America a X-ian country?  How can you do the same?
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:18:14
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Dec18.162650.20051@umbc3.umbc.edu>
	<RLK.92Dec18182618@underprize.think.com>
	<1992Dec21.134303.25028@umbc3.umbc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu's message of Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:43:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.134303.25028@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

   >Quite true, and personally I was surprised to see Maddi's original post
   >here.  I didn't think it was either necessary or a terribly good idea,
   >for exactly that reason.  However, I did find the posting interesting,
   >and I think that the reasons she gave were solid ones.  No one can study
   >everything in depth; one has to form impressions based on limited data,
   >and the data that Maddi gathered seem sufficient for someone with a
   >certain world view to give up religion (or not to assume it in the first
   >place).  Then again, others have no problem with the things that Maddi
   >(or I) do have problems with.

   Are you suggesting that the choice between religion and atheism
   is fundamentally emotional, and that emotion guides the intellect?

Not necessarily; it depends upon the individual.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write lpf@uunet.uu.net
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Homosexuals should be allowed into the military
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:13:44 GMT


I have not seen a more inflammatory and positional phrase than
"bigoted and hateful notion that gays should be discriminated against"
in a long time. What's more, it's grossly inaccurate.  The issue is
one of appropriateness. Some feel that homosexuals can function well
and without added friction in the military.  Others do not. The issue
is not unlike one of whether men and women should sleep in joint open
barracks (not private rooms) in the military.

Neither bigotry, hatefulness, nor discrimination are involved. What
is involved is whether the military can efficiently carry out their
primary function if people, some of whom are sexually interested in
others, sleep and live in communal areas and use communal showers and
toilets with those others.

David

-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM Public Key on server  --  Consider it an envelope for your e-mail
Date: Tuesday, 22 December 1992 20:01:58 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Why bother with talk.politics.mideast?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Distribution: world

Is it my imagination or have the t.p.me discussions moved back here?

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Jewish Joke of the Day
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 02:59:06 GMT

In article <BzMv2y.EDv@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward) writes:
> In article <1992Dec21.195907.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
>>In article <1h4j3dINNsn0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf) writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I got the following out of Rabbi Joseph telushkin's Book on
>>> Jewish Humor...
>>> 
>>> 	Found on a sign above a Urinal at Hebrew University in
>>> 	Jerusalem....
>>> 		THE FUTURE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IS IN YOUR HANDS.
>>> 
>>> 
>>If we're on grafitti jokes I think I prefer:
>>
>>"  my mother made me a homosexual"
>>
>>and written below in another hand:
>>
>>"if I send her the wool, could she make me one too?"
>>
>>Laurence
> 
> Sorry, the best bit of grafitti definitely has to be
> 
> "Absolute Zero is OK"
> 
> 
Me, I prefered "Heisenberg Rules May Be OK"

Laurence
From: sg04@gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: American Jews and Lubavitch
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:16:26 GMT
Reply-To: sg04@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Inc.

I would say that there are a lot of problems with this analysis:

1. Comparing Chabad to communism is pretty far-fetched. I would have
to say that it shows unfamiliarity with at least one of the systems.
Taking an isolated incident that occured in 1932 and using it to
make a connection between two widely divergent schools is not what
I would call an intelllectually rigorous comparison. In fact I would
say that such an comparison would only work if one is not being logical
at all, but rather emotionally enraged, biased, and perhaps emitting
one's open hatred.

2. One would have to be very unfamilliar with Chabad to try and
claim that it's position is to have American Jews withdraw from
general society. Perhaps this could be applied to Satmar. But,
it is directly opposite with Chabad. The entire thrust is to 
engage and take part in society. That is why you will find Chabad
professionals in locals and professions where you would never
find any other Orthodox Jews (Singapore, Las Vegas, Hong Kong, etc.)
(Race Horse breeding, Cattle Ranching, Sky-diving, etc.)


---
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Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Feld brothers update
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 20:52:51 GMT

E. C. Leeper asks

> This inconsistency (is Mossad Maccabee a soccer team or a social
> services agency?)

Perhaps some reporter's notes said "Israeli Maccabi soc. services?"
which was parsed incorrectly (but reasonably) as "Maccabia' soccer
services" instead of "Maccabee social services?"

Just an Occam's razor guess.

R
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Entertaining suggestions for responses
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:30:14 GMT

In article <1gt2r8INN2on@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
>I considered a good Hebrew greeting for Hannukah. A couple of
>people suggested Hag Sameah, but that has always bothered me
>because the term "hag" in Hebrew quite specifically points
>to one of the three major pilgrimage festivals (Sukkot,
>Pesah, Shavu'ot).
>Adding the word "urim" changes the meaning of "hag" from pointing
>to the Torah festivals to one pointing directly at Hannukah 
>itself ("Festival of Light(s)").
>And so, to everyone here on scj, this overly picky grammarian
>wishes everyone a "hag urim sameah."   :-)
  I'm really out of my depth here, but doesn't chag derive from
  a meaning of "comes around" ? ie davar sheh chag kol shana.

  Sivivon, sov sov sov/..... :-).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bfoo_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Brian E. Foont)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 15:48:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.151155.21753@sarah.albany.edu> mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.013029.7089@starbase.trincoll.edu> nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller) writes:
>>Erecting a menorah in a public park or square requires some sort of permit
>>and therein lies state involvement.  It means that the state is asked to
>>make distinctions between those things that are "religious" and those that
>>are not 
>
>And somehow, we always wind up with Christmas trees and Santa Clauses
>in such places, presented as secular items.
>
>Menorahs would make a nice counterbalance to all this Christmas
>decoration, and would help our children feel they are an accepted part
>of the society at large. It would help us instill a pride in our
OB>heritage. 
>
>Given the intermarriage rate, such experiments might be worthwhile.
>
>
>>And it means, even more certainly, that our grandchildren will grow up
>>in an oppressive and coercive Christian ambiance.
>
>It is precisely the prevalence of Christian imagery, in public parks
>as well as other places, that makes it valuable to have some of our
>own imagery up on display.
>
>--Mark

I am not sure if this is the kind of feeling that I would want my children
(eventually) to have.  While they may feel excluded, it seems that they
should, Christmas is not theirs.  Similarly, I am not sure that I would
want menorahs combined with Christmas trees, since I really do not want
them associated together.

When I was little and my family would see different Christman decorations
we never denied their beauty, nor the cheer they lent to the atmosphere,
but my parents also made sure that I understood this was THEIRS, not OURS,
and that it would be like stealing to copy it.

Particularly in these times of high intermarriage it would seem that
making the distinction between Jews and non-Jews more distinctive.  I 
personally find it rather distrurbing how many fellow Jews here at my
university have decorated for Christmas (especially the ones that try
and combine the two holiday's symbolism).

It seems to me that the only reason that such a big deal is made out of
Chanukah (which is a minor festival) is that it happens to fall at about
the same times as Chirstmas.  This is fine, we do need to "compete" so that
our children will feel better, but I think we must be careful how far
we take this.  This is especially true considering all the complaining
that we do about Chirstmas decorations on public property.  We do not
have a hypocryte licence.  Not decordated tree mean not menorah.

Brian E. Foont
bfoo_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu

My opinions are my own, but you may share them.
From: sg04@gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:03:38 GMT
Reply-To: sg04@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Inc.

In article 210935CARIAN@auvm.american.edu, CARIAN@auvm.american.edu () writes:
] Most of the rest of the Cincinnati Jewish community is not very happy with
] Chabad these days.
] 

I'm not sure much can be made of this statistic (verifiable or not). For
example, the intermarriage rate for Jews is 50%. Would one then derive
from this some conclusions about Jews happiness with being Jewish, or about
the suitability of Jews as spouses? 

An athlete might not be happy with his coach's analysis of his performance
in the last game. The response of an audiance might not be what the speaker
expected. Does the speaker blame the audiance? Does the athlete ditch the
coach? The more mature athlete might instead say: "I don't see why he
says do it this way, but I'll try and see if it gives results". Of course,
it can depend on the individual case. 

---
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Spawning yet another joke thread (was Re: Jewish STEREOTYPES - the last time)
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB
	<1992Dec18.172759.14745@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<Dec19.212615.34421@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
	<20DEC92.17257993.0180@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:38:36 GMT

On Sun, 20 Dec 1992 19:58:46 GMT, META000 <META@UNB.CA> said:

 M> One which readily comes to mind is the old joke about the jew who
 M> ends up being shipwrecked on an island.  When he is finally rescued,
 M> his rescuers find that he has built two synagogues from branches and
 M> leaves. Why two synagogues they ask him?  "That one", he says, "is
 M> the one I daven in & belong to. The other one", he says, spitting on
 M> the ground, "I wouldn't go into if you paid me."

	Here's a variant:

	A Jew is shipwrecked on a desert island.  As he pulls himself
out of the surf he looks up and sees another Jew sitting on a rock, and
behind him two large, beautiful, shuls.

	He goes up to the Jew and asks: "How many people on this
island?"

	The second responds: "Just me.  And you, now, of course."

	The first asks, "Then why the are there two shuls?"

	The second points over his right shoulder.  "Well, when I first
got here I built this shul over here.  But, after afew years, I didn't
like the way they did things, so I built the other one over there.  By
the way, which one are you going to join?"

	The first looks suprised.  "Join?  I'm going to build one down
the street!"

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
"Told to me by my rabbi."
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish STEREOTYPES - the last time
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:54:53 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Dec18.172759.14745@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> seth@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Seth Chazanoff) writes:
>	Re: Jewish "Self-mocking"
>
>The Democrats I associate with absolutely
>will not laugh at a joke aimed at a Deomcrat or Democratic party policies.
>My Republican friends love Dan Quayle jokes, when was the last time you
>heard a Democrat laugh at a joke pointed at Ted Kennedy?

My brother's a quite liberal Democrat, and though I doubt he's ever sunk to
the level of a Dan Quayle joke, he regularly does Ted Kennedy impersonations
in his stand-up routine (at a press conference: "Oh, and I suppose *you've*
never driven off a bridge, Mr. Perfect Reporter!").
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Hanuka Joke
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:06:23 GMT

I've posted this before, but you must have forgotten it.

Who where the youngest composers on record?

The Maccabees - in Maoz Tzur we read "B'nai Vinah, y'mai s'hmona,
kov'eu shir u'r'nanim." A free translation is, "Smart kids,
eight days old, composed songs."
From: sg04@gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The difference between a chasid and a
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:58:47 GMT
Reply-To: sg04@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Inc.

In article 724902252@etrog, isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:
] I guess this is how Gemora (Lehavdil) got going!
] Joel arguing with David about what I said/meant.
] 
] In actual fact, I used the word Chassidim in respect to Rav Shach, pointedly
] and with purpose, albeit just a trifle loosely.
] 
] Elements of Chassidism have found their way into Misnagdic (non-Chassidic) 
] circles. The collapse of the Shtetl, and Rav of a Shtetl, the growth of
] big town Judasim and the increase in information exchange rates have
] found expression in the new concept of `Daas Torah'. 
] This concept is intertwined with the idea of subservience of to a Rabbi.
] Increased levels of subservience are more of a Chassidic notion than anything 
] else. The term, Emunas Chachomim appears but once in Rabbinic literature, and
] is not necessarily referring to Emuna BeChachomim, it could mean Emuna Shel 
] Chachomim. Further, the dictum of Lo Tosur need not be equated to 
] the level inherent in Chassidic Circles.
] 
] There is little doubt that today Rav Shach's followers are acting more like
] Chassidim when it comes to subservience as a means of complying with 
] the so called `Daas Torah' (or as Professor Kaplan calls it Deos Torah!).
] 
] PS. Even the Chosid should be happy when others adopt Chassidic concepts.
]     Most certainly there was no intention to offend.


Not to be too picky. But I have heard it mentioned in misnagdishe circles
that the distinction between Chassidim and Misnagdim is largely in
the concept of a Rebbe. I disagree.

I would put primary emphasis on Darchei Chassidus (which covers things
such as world outlook, ethics, minhagim, etc). That is the emotional outlook
and activities of a Chassdishe Jew. And more importantly, the intellectual
aspect of a Chassidic Jew: the learning of Chassidus. This is not to
say that the idea of a Rebbe is tofel, no, it is also a central concept.
But, rather, I would say that if Misnagdim want to be considered as Chassidim,
something more than "Daas Torah" is required. [I am not giving practical,
advice here, or a call for action, but rather pointing out that the
distinction between Chassid and Misnag is deeper than superficial appearnce
might lead one. And this distinction was not brought out in the letter, though
the author might very well be knowledgeable about this].

I also do not offer this with any intent to offend, but rather to bring out
some of the deeper distinctions that are implied in the title of this
stream: "The difference between a chasid and a misnag"

---
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Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
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From: manoj@dgbt.doc.ca (M K Jain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Keywords: human rights civil rights Israel Palestinians
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:13:07 GMT
Organization: The Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Canada

In <1gt2k7INNjkm@mizar.usc.edu> srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose) writes:

>Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians is wrong, for at least three
>reasons.  1. It is illegal (according to Israeli, as well as international
>law).  2. It is only the most recent example of a sick policy of 
>collective punishment.  3. It may well destroy what is left of the 
>peace process.

[stuff deleted]

And you would be happy if those extremists are allowed to remain there and 
kill more innocent people and create disturbances. If I remember right 
the deported persons belong to the group which claimed responsibility for the
killings. Also Please confine these articles to politics newsgroups in future.

manoj

Manoj Jain                                  Ma Bell : 613-998-2681 (O)
Communications Research Center,
3701 Carling Avenue,                        Fax     : 613-998-2433
Ottawa  K2H 8S2                             Internet: manoj@dgbt.doc.ca
----+----+----+----+----+-----+----+----+----+-----+-----+----+----+-----+
STD HI-TECH DISCLAIMER APPLIES.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923)
Subject: Re: The Jewish nose myth
Organization: NetCom -- OnLine Communication Services
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:52:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.214825.8101@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.204652.25417@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com
>(Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>
>>>Sam, you're going schnozz to schnozz with a professional here...
>
>>Oh, go ahead and snout it out.  
>
>This may be the bridge between our views on Judaism.  It's probably the
>only one we could both sniff out that we'd agree makes scents.

On the odor hand...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger)
Subject: Religious displays (was Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?)
Summary: As seen on TV
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:07:00 GMT

In Vienna (Virginia, not Austria) there has been a widely covered 
controversy about a creche on public property (I think town hall).  A 
year ago, the city put one up.  The ACLU went to court and got an 
injunction against the town putting one up.  Someone put out "ACLU: 
the grinch that stole ..." bumper stickers.  And a private group has 
put one up.  The decision was that it can stay there as long as the 
group has someone present.  They didn't say why, but my interpretation 
is that as long as someone is present, it can be considered part of a 
political demonstration and allowable under free speech laws.  As soon 
as they leave, it becomes town-sponsored, and, by rule of the 
injunction, has to go.

"But that's not what I'm here to talk about.  I'm hear to talk 
about..." the television coverage.

One of the local stations (Channel 9 - CBS affiliate eyewitness news) 
did a story.  They interviewed the people putting up the display.  
They interviewed citizens, all of whom supported the display on public 
property.  They didn't have anyone speaking against.  They didn't have 
anyone from the ACLU.  And they didn't say that they tried to find an 
ACLU representative and failed or were turned down.  It looked to me 
to be a deliberate taking of sides, against those nasty people who 
are taking away our traditional holiday display.  By contrast, the 
Washington Post printed one letter on each side.

				my views only
				Barry Schlesinger

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish