From: joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 9 Jan 93 19:13:26 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos

In article <1es802I931=e01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.004445.17608@arden.linet.org> joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>>
>
>Actually you've got it wrong. They just see no reason to believe in any
>god or religion. Life works just as well without any religion or god, and
>they don't have the hangups that adherence to a religion often brings.

I see no difference.  Non-beleif is Belief in that non-belief.  You speak
as though atheists are these 'free spirit' beings that have hit the next
evolutionary point.  Sorry to burst yer bubble but your faith that God is
not there is no different than my faith he is.  Blind faith.  I'll let you
figger out why your faith is blind also.  

>"Weekend christian"? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. But

Not many left. Used to be that they went because everyone else does.

>all atheism is, is an absence of belief. It is not any kind of belief
>system, 

yea right. Whatever you say.  "you believe you don't believe so you're much
better than them folks that 'believe'".  

>whatever we do best. Nobody makes a fuss unless somebody tries to impose
>themselves or their religion on us. Remember, this is OUR board, we can
>talk about atheist problems, swap stories etc. and you have intruded with
>your preconceived wrong ideas of what an atheist is.

Thats funny, I thought it was OUR board to talk about atheist problems, swap
stories etc...  Just joking.  The scene you present is absurd however.  This
is Usenet and belongs to everyone.  Don't beleive me then try to 'kick me out'.

But that aside, I came here expecting to find atheists and to see what they're
all about.  I know what an atheist is.  Its not a complex notion.  Frankly I
find the idea of atheism pretty stupid and shallow minded so I'm trying to find
out what you people see that I don't seem to.

>I have heard so many born-again fundies claim they used to be atheists
>that I sometimes wonder if they think atheist is another word for
>lukewarm christian. Is that what you meant by "weekend christian"?

no.  Whats a "born-again fundie" and a lukewarm christian?  (just to illustrate
how absurd this anal-retentiveness toward terms can get.)

>>christian' when confronted by the hard reality proposed by the Bible.
>
>Which hard reality is that? If you expect an atheist to believe everything
>in the bible, you have to:
>
> (1) Explain why he should believe everything in the bible without using
>     circular arguments (It is the word of God. Why? Because the bible
>     says so. Why? Because it's the word of God.).

gads here we go again.  For a people that hate circular arguments you sure
walk in them alot.  I'm going to do you a favor and assume you are just
talking and don't really want me to answer your questions.  Why?  Because
you just told me you people don't like *others* coming in with their religion
and spewing it all over the place.

Heres a bright suggestion!  If you don't want to hear people talking about
their stupid religion THEN DON'T ASK THEM ABOUT IT!!!!  Pretty simple eh?

I'm here to find out what makes you people so damm sure there is no God.
Not to try and convince you there is one.  Frankly God may be concerned on
your eternal future but I can't truthfully say that *I* am.  So lets not
bother with what I think YOU should think about God ok?

[many questions regarding my religious beliefs mercifully deleted]

Actually I would have been glad to take your questions on and would have
if I were not sick of seeing so many people bitch about it only to ask more
questions.  I would have also had you not just said the same thing then 
proceed to ask me about my beliefs.

>>>> The way I see it, toss out the philosophical 'perspective' crap then only
>>>> one is right (or both are wrong).
>
>But all religions are equally valid in that people sincerely believe them,
>and that they include codes of ethics for their followers. And all these
>give different answers to the Ultimate Question.

Wrong.  In your perspective, all religions are equally invalid.  Belief has
NO effect on reality.  Proof?  easy.  Say you have a loaded gun and threaten
to shoot me.  I can believe all I want that the gun isn't loaded.  If I get
shot its dependant on your trigger finger, not my belief.

Same thing with religions as well as atheism.  Its not the fact that "you
believe in something" but what you believe.

>That is the root of the problem. We don't know the ultimate truth. We are
>getting closer all the time to understanding the universe, but we still
>don't know everything, and we probably never will: Once upon a time
>physicists thought they had everything neatly packaged with protons,
>neutrons and electrons. Then along came mesons, quarks etc.. But we are
>getting closer all the time.

Exactly.  Reality is constantly being discovered and we find out what we
previously believed was reality was in fact not.  The fact that you realize
this baffles me even more that you believe that you DO KNOW that there is
no God.

>
>To say "God" did it does not answer the question. To an atheist that
>creates another question. Who/what created "God", and then who or what
>made "God's" creator? The fundamentalist reply that nobody created "God"
>because "God" has always been there has an obvious answer: If nobody
>created "God", why does anybody have to have created the universe?

Sure if you're narrowminded enough to assume you understand the nature of
the universe enough to even ask a remotely intelligent question. Thats
what scares me about Atheistic scientists.  Who knows what they'll assume
to be fact?

>The additional question for the believers is : How did "god" do it?

voice recognition. :-)

>
>Atheists and believers of all religions work together to answer this
>even if they cannot agree on the ultimate question itself.

hmmm I'll have to think on this one.

>Chris Lee
>
>(6)   *   (9)   = (42)
>   13        13       13


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