From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Minorities in majority and other silly stuff
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:13:09 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Dec13.200652.15888@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Milan Stojanovic (stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu) writes:
>>Erland Sommarskog (sommar@enea.se) writes:
OB>
>>Constitution of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination
>>of nations, not republics or provinces. So Albanians are entitled
>>to the highest degree of autonomy, but not to separate state, according
>>to the international law.
>
>Please quote relevant parts of international law that makes distinction
>between "nation" and "minorites". Particularly were "minority" is used

Minority rights are defined in the UN Chapter and Helsinki Accord.
You can find them anywhere and try to find the right for self-determination.
You want be able to.

>is the same funny sense the SFRY constitution. But, of course, if

Not really.  Minority is a group of people with a primary state somewhere
else.   What was funny in SFRY was that there were six nations, instead
of one - Yugoslavs.  Big mistake, but now it's history.

>there is such a law, neither have the Serbs in Croatia and B-H any
>right to seceede. If you are minority, it doesn't help if you are

Anyway, Serbs by the definition were not a minority in SFRY, because 
they were constituent nation.   Now, that situation has changed, and with 
one signature EEC has turned Serbs into minority in ex-Bosnia and
ex-Croatia, but Serbs do not recongise it. And they will fight until 
there is a change in that decision.

>actually in majority somewhere, minority you are.
>

Well, you are just making an argument for a sake of argument.
Other minorities in the Albanian sense are Hungarians in Yugoslavia
and Roumania, Serbs in Hungary, Albania, Roumania, Germans in 
Poland ( this one must be painful, especially after recent incidents
in Poland ), to name few. 

>>Of course, international law was already broken in the case of 
>>Yugoslavia, under pressure of Germany mostly, so this mightOB not 
>>be an argument any more.
>
>Germany? What has Germany to do with it? 

According to the P. Carrington and S. Vance, the recognition was
strongly pushed in EEC by one member.  


>Oh, sorry, I forgot, like
>any good Serb, he throws in Germany whenever there's need to point
>at bad guy. Funny guys, those Serbs.

I hope that I'll meet you once, so you will have chance to show me how
funny Serbs are.  You are showing rather bad behaviour here.  Show
more control in future, please.

>OB
>>In any case, I do believe that there must be territorial settlement
>>between Albanians and Serbs, which would make all sides equally happy
>>an equally unhappy, so the future friendly relations would be secured.
>
>Well, I am glad to see you say something sensieble. 

Thanks.  

>I suppose
>you realize that this territorial settlement means that Serbia
>will have to kiss almost every sqaure inch of Kosovo bye-bye.
>

Not really. There should be first internationally supervised 
census.  Two last ones ( 1981 and 1971 ) were not done correctly.
People were not allowed to say that they are Gorans, Turks, etc...
Also, there should be estimate how many of those Albanians are 
legally in SRY ( there is no automatic citizenship if you are 
born in SRY - illegal parents - illegal child - also there is 
no amnesty for illegals ).

Calculation of moderate Serbs show that Serbia should get more than
30% of Kosovo and Metohija.  Some important cultural monuments would
have to stay out of Serbia, because Serbs were minority there 
for a quite a long time, but that is life.
Better that then war.  Moreover, such a solution would leave 
everyone happy and unhappy and would make a basis for a 
good relations. 


>Milan, why do you talk about Germans all the time? And why do you
>write "their minorities"? Do those minorities belong to the handful
>right-wing extremists who are guilty to these deeds?
>

No, some rather near future will show the exact percentage of those 
supporting the right-wingers there. Descriptions of people watching
with joy youngsters beating Turks are pointing in this direction.

>How many attacks have Serbs committed against their Croats, Muslims,
>Albanians and others this year?

Against Albanians much less than Germans attacks on Turks.  Far less.
With Croats and Muslims there is war going on.  But Muslims and
Croats in SRY are far safer than Turks in Germany.  At least they should be.
Unfortunately streets of Belgrade are not safe as they used to be,
but Serbs are equally unsafe, while armed people are roaming around, at
least that is what my friends are complaining. Thugs cannot 
distinguish in Belgrade Muslims and Croats from Serbs the way than
can in Germany Turks from Germans.  

BTW, both Croats in Vojvodina and Muslims in Sanjak should have
right for self-determination.   Of course in those parts where they
are majority.   


> Or you don't want to talk about
>that? More fun to drivel about Germans and WWII Croats?
>-- 

WWII Croats are 90% same as Croats today.  That is, we have
rather mild people in some areas of Croatia, where we had mild people 
during the WWII, and vice versa. Spiritual leaders  during the WWII 
brought up this generation.  That is why it is important for people to 
realize how deep is hatred toward Serbs and Orthodoxy rooted into
the Croatian Catholic church and that is why I'll post much more 
documents showing that.  Of course, most of them realize that they 
should hide this, so they pretend. 

Germans, I do not know.  You called me a liar, why shouldn't I call 
you Nazi? ( I know that you are not German ). 

>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se



MNS