HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Translating Names
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 05:37:48 GMT

Unto all upon the Rialto doth Charles send greetings!
(It seems I should select a byname before any second Charles appears
here.)

On the topic of translating names, it was asked:
> "I think a better question is when and how should names be
> translated? If have an Irish persona, should you leave your name in
> the original Irish, meaning that few people will understand what the
> name means, much less be able to pronounce it?  Or should you
> translate it into English and loose the grace, poetry, and essential
> Irishness inherent in the other language?" (James Moore)
 
Duke Cariadoc answereth:
> I believe the period answer is that names were normally translated
> into the local language. So if we assume that what we are speaking is
> English, I suppose we should translate our names as they would be
> translated into English at our persona's time. If we assume we are
> all speaking our own languages and happen to be mutually intelligible
> through some magic none of us notices ... .

I think both options were used in period.  "FitzWilliam," for instance
survived in the Norman.  (I have a vague recollection, which I have not
verified in any way, that Chaucer is another such Norman name: from the
French, "chaussure," shoe, and probably indicated a shoemaker.)  These
examples are not perfect, because Norman took four centuries to vanish
from England.

In general, however, I expect that the name would be translated if it
were seen as a nickname, but not if it were viewed as a surname.  By
this distinction, I mean that it depended on whether the name was
felt to be descriptive of the holder, or whether it was seen as "just
part of his name."

If John Baker moves to another country, he will translate his name, if
he is a Baker, but he will probably not translate it if he is a merchant.

I suspect that data on this will be sparse, as moving between coutries
speaking different languages was not all that common (still isn't).
Does anybody have any?
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles (again)
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:19:13 GMT
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Yaakov inscribes upon the Rialto:

> Unto all who read these words, greetings from
> Yaakov.
>
> [ ... explanation of how the pentacle is a judaic symbol deleted ... ]
>
> I have no clue how it became a pagan/satanic
> symbol in the common mind.  I suspect it was
>  adopted by the Golden Dawn in the 19th Century,
> in part for its mystic associations with the Solomon
> seal and in part for its nifty geometric design.
> (I'm not saying pagans didn't use it, *Jewish Seals*
> shows a coin from Italy embossed with a pentacle
> dated to the 3rd century b.c.e.  But it was not
> the exclusive province of Pagan ritual until modern times.)

It entered into use in Satanism because (according to established Christian
demonology which the Satanists mostly hold to) it's useful for warding off
demons & devils, which the Satanists are (well, some of them) interested in
summoning and controlling for their own purposes. Since it's hard to
control a demon when you've just been killed by it :) they use pentacles,
and since that the symbol has become associated with demonic summoning and
therefore demonic worship, it's sort of suffered a reversal from its
original meaning... which is a good one. (As Motley Crue, believe it or
not, had the intelligence to point out concerning their first album, Shout
at the Devil... hey if *they* can figure it out, one would think Mundania
shouldn't have too much trouble... oh well)

> In Service,
> Yaakov HaMizrachi

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:04:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.212906.13026@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>Which bums out of which offices?  "Live and let live" is an ideal I
>relly like, but I'm enough of a realist to know that it doesn't always
>work and that one should pick battles that one has at least a chance
>of winning.  Nor do I think that forcing others to help fight the
>fight one believes in is that great an idea.

So when the lotus-eating mundanes out Caid-way decide that combat as a sport 
is too violent for their delicate sensabilites, well ban that too, to aviod 
trouble, eh?
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Translating names (was Re: twinkie names)
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:34:16 GMT

ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

>In <d8dmgzm@lynx.unm.edu> evilted@vesta.unm.edu (Evilted) writes:
>>What I have found is
>>that 'of' was not used, but it is often the only way to translate names
>>correctly.

The issue here is that Irish uses a noun in the genative case here,
while English would use the prepositon "of."  You could just as easily
translate Deirdre Duibhshleibhe as Blackmountain's Deirdre, although
it would sound wrong to most English speakers.

>Of course "of" was not used in Celtic -- it's an English word.

I think what was meant by the original poster was that there was no
preposition used in the original Irish.  (Minor nitpick - there ain't no
such language as "Celtic.")  While Irish doesn't have or need an
equivalent of English's "of," it could have built a name like
Deirdre den Duibhshleibhe, which could then be translated either as
Deirdre of the Black Mountain or Deirdre from the Black Mountain.
(NB - I have no evidence that Irish names ever did this - I'm just
creating an example to illustrate the difficulty of translation.)

I think a better question is when and how should names be translated?
If have an Irish persona, should you leave your name in the original
Irish, meaning that few people will understand what the name means,
much less be able to pronounce it?  Or should you translate it into
English and loose the grace, poetry, and essential Irishness inherent
in the other language?

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Dancemaster Amplificatio
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:08:31 GMT

Stephen of the Grove wrote:
  For some time I went to dance practice every week.  While I enjoyed
  the practices, I was very disappointed to find that those of us who
  practiced (and taught) regularly were not allowed to *dance* at an
  event.  We were expected to *teach* another class.

I had the same reaction.  My solution?  Autocrat a dance event. Specifically
dedicated to the idea that the evening ball was to be done without
calling, or with the minimal calling necessary for the toughest, new
dances.  The afternoon was dedicated to teaching: new dances never before
taught, old dances to new dancers, whatever.  We've held, I think, four
in the last 6 years.

	Tibor (It helps to have folks like Master Justin, Baron Patri,
	Countess Mara, and others to do the dance teaching.)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 0005181681@mcimail.COM (Richard Boyko)
Subject: period heraldric recreation
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 03:35:00 GMT

Greetings unto the Rialtans from Layamon le Vavasour!
    I think the idea of having heralds observing the battle from
mount st. hellengone is a good idea. Having the herald of the losing
king ask the winning king to name the battlefield is a good idea as
well. If it is indeed a period practice - and _documentably_ so,
then such an occurrence can only heighten our recreation of
the mediaeval period.
    I do have one reservation. Since the mountain in question is
located in southern an tir, the logistics of travelling so far may
be somewhat daunting. The heralds may also have difficulty seeing
the battle.
   Am I right, or should I have my cartographer clapped in irons?
 
Layamon Vavasour
net:0005181681@mcimail.com
sca:Layamon.Le.Vavasour@Myrganwood.Avacal.Antir
Or, Two Bars Dancetty and in Chief a Greyhound Courant Contourney Sable
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:42:40 GMT
Organization: Old, crusty curmudgeon

In article <1992Jul28.042813.12265@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander) writes:
}There are times in life when the wise course, for intelligent
}persons who are in disagreement, is to agree to disagree.  I
}suggest that this is one of those times.

	And I heartily agree!

	***Harrumpf!***


-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Music in plays/the name Casilda
Date: 30 Jul 1992 16:39:43 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <QeRj57e00WB708CHYs@andrew.cmu.edu> ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) writes:
>Has anyone been able to find music for a particular period play? It 
>seems that when anyone does a Shakespeare play, that the music is always
>different. 

What is very probably period music for some of Shakespeare's songs
does exist.  I say "very probably" because they have been used since
the Restoration after Cromwell went and the theatres could reopen,
having been handed down from actor to actor and company to company.
The question is whether they are really the tunes used in Shakespeare's
time, as they are supposed to be, having been remembered by old actors
from before Cromwell's time.  They easily could be.  The interregnum
wasn't that long.

The only ones _I_ happen to know are the tunes to Ophelia's mad songs,
which I learned from a wicked old fart of an actor who had inexplicably
become our drama instructor at Orange Coast College.  (I understudied
Ophelia during our production of Hamlet--never got on stage, thank
goodness; it would've been a disaster.)  I'll sing 'em to you at
Pennsic if you like.

But of course new productions of plays frequently decide they want
new music and get someone to write it.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
From: asparrow@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period vs. Filk (was Basic Courtesy)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:33:44 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

Esmeralda asks about definitions of filk.

The definition I work from is very broad:
any words put to a non-original tune.

This includes everything from the Calontir Hampster
Song to many, many hymns. (Lutherns and Baptists don't
sing the same tunes)

There is serious filk, such as "Bare is the brotherless
back" and "The Risin' o' the Star" which celebrate the 
friendship between Calontir and Ansteorra.  I think
there is a place for that at most bardic circles.  One of
our Barons has filked Master Iolo's song to fit his persona
and it's a beautiful tragic piece. 

There is obtrusive filk, where the song tune is hopelessly
current, but the words are nice and have a semi-period feel.
"Mongol Nights" is a good example.  

Silly filk is the largest catagory.  This includes "the Hampster
Song" The Moose Song and that sort of thing.  There is a place
for this, and I have heard it performed with no loss of atmosphere.
Of course it was a Fool's Bardic.    
And it is fun to sing on LOOOONG drives....

It depends very much on the atmosphere of the bardic circle,
the people involved and the event.  

Aethelynda d'Eath, whose taste for filk is older than
her involvement in the SCA
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Apology and Retraction
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:20:44 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


Unto Hossein Al Quomi, doth Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus send his greetings,
and a gentle admonition,

Good My Lord Hossein,  in a recent missive thou dids't say that because of
an egregious error that thou dids't commit, that thou  dids't feel that
"the only alternative available to me in honor is to permanently withdraw 
from this forum."

My Lord,  may I humbly suggest that in fact the only alternative avaialble
to thee in honor is to continue in this forum.   

My Lord, thou dids't err in that thou dids't act in the heat of passion.
How shall thou learn moderation and courtesie an thou dost remove thyself
from temptation?  Nay, My Gentle Hossein, there is no virtue to be found
in resisting temptation when there is no temptation to be found.  Thou
art locked in the battle with the most deadly foes,  pride and anger.
An thou dost quit the feild of honor, thou dost not serve honor,  thou
proclaimest thyself a coward and allow the dark forces of ignorance
and temptation claim the feild.

Thus, I would counsel thee -  accept thy trummeling, learn from it, gird 
thy loins,  and continue to do battle.  Battle not with those with who
thou dost disagree, but battle instead with the beast of ignorance gnawing
they who disclaim falsely.  Battle also with thine own pride and anger, 
so that thou mayest shine as a gentle light of wisdom in the midst of 
darkness.  Regain thy honor multi fold as a man who doth sow one apple 
seed doth reap a goodly crop.   But note,  that seeds do grow better in
ground which is tended gently, than in ground which is pounded hard.

Thus My Lord,  an it were my place to command thee, I would command thee
that thou must stand, and I would forbid thee to leave the feild.

As I am but a humble scholiard, I will beseech thee, for that I would sore
miss thee and thy knowledge.

In thy humble service
Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: Violence, and the use thereof in self defense.
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:28:50 EDT

archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:

> For myself, mundane legal council has advised that "shoot to stop, torso is 
> the largest and most likely target" is a safer position to advocate than "
> shoot to kill,"  which the jury doth despise.  Hence, my euphamistic 
> speech.  This, and a workplace in a large beaurocracy that doth despise 
> clear speech gives me bad habits.
> -=-=-
> T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
> University of Tennessee
> "Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
> -=-=-

Oh!  Vidarr's shoe, I'm not advocating 'shooting to kill' - didn't
think we were talking about shooting at all, since most people
aren't carrying firearms.  

Not even advocating 'kill the bastard' - what I'm talking about is
the use of techniques in which one is, of neccessity, unconcerned
as to whether or not the other person dies.  (Trivial example -
smacking someone in the head with a rock.  It probably won't kill
them, but it might, and it is *very* hard to control whether it will
or not, so if you decide to do this, you have to decide that, under
the circumstances, you don't care if they live or die, so long as
they stop.   This is *very* hard on many people's sensibilities.


Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Presumably Period Foods
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:25:42 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

Good Gentles All,

I thank all who offered suggestions on non-perishable period foods. Here
is a listing of foods I presume to be period. Some of these ideas were
also mentioned by others.

CARBOHYDRATES
unleavened bread (presumably things like hard crackers and matzos)
rice
oats
broad, flat noodles 
bread
cracked grains (farina, cous-cous, bulgar, kasha)
barley

VEGETABLES
carrots
onions
garlic
dried veggies
pickled veggies
sauerkraut

FRUITS
dried apples, raisins, apricots, figs, dates, prunes, currants
oranges
lemons
melons

DAIRY (Semi-perishable)
cheese
yogurt

MEAT
dried fish (I have found dried anchovies and herring in oriental
grocery stores in my area, I have not tried them though)

dried meat/jerky 
hard sausage (I have only been able to find pepperoni and summer sausage
in the U.S. and these must be kept cool. I anyone knows of a plausible
source for sausage which doesn't need refrigeration please tell me)

eggs (keep cool)

LEGUMES/VEGETARIAN PROTIEN SOURCES

lentils
chick peas
split peas
hazel nuts
almonds
walnuts

STOCKS, PREPARED FOODS AND CONDIMENTS
virtually any spice
virtually any herb
lemon juice
vinegar
honey
salt
yeast
ksourdough starter
mustard
worchestershire sauce (approximating the Roman and medieval sauce
liquamen)

PREPARED FOODS
marzipan
nut butters
halvah
baklava
fruit cake
tarts
rock candy
candied fruit
wafers
yeast-raised short breads (like blini or other pancakes)

DRINKS
herb teas
mineral water                
fruit juices (never mentioned in period, but presumably you could drink
the wine before it had a chance to ferment...;-))
hard cider
cider
wine
beer
mead
sekanjabin syrup (sugar, mint, vinegar and water, mix to tasty. Yummy!)
grenadine syrup (approximating grenatis, which is a period drink.)

DEMONSTRABLY NOT PERIOD OR VIRTUALLY OOP. FOR WESTERN EUROPE
 chocolate :-(
tomatoes potatos
pinto beans and the like 
pecans 
  corn
sassafras
pineapple
cocoanut
tea

Cariadoc has redacted period recipies for grenatis and sekanjabin in his
miscellany, as well as a recipe for preserving meat in vinegar.
There may be other sources as well. Now if I can just find period
recipies for foods that preserve well. (I'm fairly sure the Miscellany
has some, if I can just find my copy).

Hoping that this does somebody some good, 

	Lothar von Katzenellenbogen \|/
                                     0
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: silly filk (authenticity
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1992 21:36:10

>  Hope you enjoyed.
>                                                                          
> Written by me on this the ninth day of the month of July                 
> Christian von Jauregg                                                    
> (mka Michael McAfee)                                                     

Thanks...  This may be useful in convincing people why Filk has no
place in the SCA.

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org   <-- Working Again?
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: lindal@killer.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Photos and events
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:57:15 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <59148@mimsy.umd.edu>, kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) writes:
|> Dafydd ap Gwystl greets the Rialto.
|
|> I would like to strongly caution people against hasty judgement
|> of fights on videotape.  My point is simply this--video is not live, nor infallible.
|> There is a tendency to give total faith to video: "but I can see it!"
|> Video can be deceptive.
|> 
|> 	Dafydd ap Gwystl			David Kuijt
|> 	Barony of Storvik			kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu
|> 	Kingdom of Atlantia			(MD,DC,VA,NC,SC)


greetings

I must also caution on the use of video as judgement on blows. 
I have taped fights in tournements, had the fighter walk off 
the field, sit down and watch a replay, and have to watch it 
two or three times before he could figure out why he had taken
 a blow, or why his opponent did not.  If he had waited as much 
as an hour before watching it, when the fight was confused with 
others he had won/lost, who knows what he would have remembered, 
even with the tape.

I have had a tape of a final in the crown list used by BOTH fighters
as PROOF that the OTHER guy was clearly not taking blows. Neither one
said anything at the time, and none of the chivalry or
marshalls had a problem at the time.  several knights who were 
there later watched the tape at the request of the finalists, 
and agreed that YOU CAN"T TELL from tape. It was only one angle, 
it was from a distance, and your perception of speed and strength is 
distorted.  

But, for training puposes, it has its uses.  Tape a fighter,
 try several angles of the same blows, look at stance etc. 
 BUT at practice, not at a tournement.

linda of the lakelands (west)
lindal@asd.sgi.com
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anti-SCA/wargaming attitudes (was Pentacles)
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:31:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712101755.F00008

AM>  From: n8948315@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Arthur Morgan)
AM>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
AM>
AM>  You might be interested to know that my denomination (The Assemblies
AM>  of God,
AM>  one of those so-called fundie groups) has an organization called Chi
AM>  Omega Rho
AM>  or "The Knights of Corr" which has a similar thrust to the SCA

Well, there are the major fundamentalist churches (which generally have 
bigger fish to fry anyway) and the Loonies for Christ, :-) who give them a 
bad name, while picking old folk's pockets.

We have a huge Assemblies of God camp in our area, and they have never been 
a problem once they understood what was going on. The "fundies" who are a 
problem are the one who *cherish* their misunderstandings and don't *want* 
to learn otherwise. The local SCA rents space in churches (all kinds) 
and the only problem we ever has is the "dry" denominations annoy the "wet" 
SCAdians.  ;->

We do have to remember that we ought try not to generalize about *anyone*.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca