From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Walking her to the car.
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:58:16 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Aug16.082231.17919@news.acns.nwu.edu>, query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green) writes:

>>>>
>>>>> 	Since that has happened, I now usually INSIST on escorting a woman
>>>>> to where she needs to go.  If she refuses, I will usually follow her from a
>>>>> distance of about a block, and then run up to her if it seems like
>>>>> something may happen.  Maybe thats wrong, if theyt said I should not go,
>>>>> but, hell, I would rather be stubborn and called a jerk or worse, than let
>>>>> someone get attacked.
>>>>
>>>>To force someone else to accept your viewpoint is wrong, and that is what you
>>>>do by not permitting her the autonomy of deciding whether she wants to walk
>>>>home alone. Why don't you at least be honest, walk up to a woman, and say, "I am
>>>>wlaking you home whether you like it or not. You can't refuse, because I'll
>>>>just follow you at  distance all the way home. You have no choice. Let's go."
>>>>
>>> 
>>> 	I have, in the past said that to people.  And, more often than not,
>>> they thanked me later for my concern.  Of course, I have been insulted or
>>> called an alarmist, a macho pig etc..  But, I am willing to risk insult if
>>> it means helping someone else avoid something worse...
>>
>>You are not merely risking being called names, you are decding for toher people
>>what is best for them and what they WILL do--You WILL be escorted, like it or
>>not.
>>
> 
> 	Actually, I cannot see how I am preventing anyone from doing
> anything.  I will not stop someone from going anywhere or doing anything, I
> just follow along at a distance, and leave when they get to their
> destination.  If I tried to prevent someone from, say, going into a bar, I
> would feel like a total schmuch, because THEN I would be telling them what
> they should do.  As it is, I am not doing anything like that.  

They have a right to walk to their destination WITHOUT being chaparoned by you.
Yes, you have right to also be on the street, however, you are choosing your
path based entirely on their path. 

Yuo are preventing them from choosing their own course of actions--no matter
how foolish they may be.


> 	Also, note, that police serve much the same function as I do.  The
> cruise around looking to help people who are in trouble, or going to the
> scene of a disturbance.  They actually interfere far more than I do, since
> they WILL actually accost someone and tell them that they shouldn't be
> around the area.  They do this in the form of trying to help someone.  

True, but they OFFER assistance, and if you decline, they give a warning and
move along, otherwise they are guilty of harrasment. 

> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>You know, it would be interesting if police cruised by, she waved them down,
>>>>and said that you wanted to go home with her, but when she declined, you
>>>>followed her out anyway, and she is worried YOU are planning on raping her.
>>>>
>>>>You could earn yourself a record with this behavior, as well as scare a lot of
>>>>women.
>>>>
>>>>Grow up. Let other people choose their life's course.
>>> 
>>> 	I usually do, I just don't in the matter of letting them do
>>> something that is so dangerous that they might not get a chance to learn
>>> from it.  If someone wants to do something that I dissagree with, more
>>> power to them.  As long as they will at least have the opportunity to
>>> realize that it was either a mistake, and learn from it, or realize that it
>>> was not a mistake.  It is kind of hard to learn from your errors when you
>>> are dead...  And, I think that getting attacked because you chose to go it
>>> alone is not an experience that is necessary.  It can be prevented, or at
>>> least the risks made smaller.
>>> 	As far as tho police picking me up, I am aware of no laws in which
>>> it is illegal for a person to walk down the same street as someone...  Yes,
>>> the cops COULD harrass me, but, what can they arrest me for?  Record?  My
>>> ass.  I could say the truth, that I am worried about his/her safety in
>>> these parts, and that s/he refused an escort, so I decided to watch out for
>>> him/her, or I could just lie and say that s/he is just paranoid and I have
>>> never met them in my life.  Anyway, if I were to be arrested for that, then
>>> I would worry more about the cops record after that than mine.  It's not a
>>> crime, you know.
>>
>>You meet a woman at a party, talk to her, offer to "take her home", when she
>>declines your offer, you follw her home anyway.
>>
>>You think the police will not look at YOU as a rapist?
>>
>>You think that they will not arrest you for SOMETHING? (Refusal to cooperate
>>with a police officer in his/her official duties, followed by resisting
>>arrest.)
> 
> 	From about 50 to 100 yards away I am not violatine her space.  I am
> not in ny way a threat to her, unless I either run at her or have a gun.  

You are violating her autonomy.

> 	I agree, though, that it could be alarming or suspicious.  Okay,
> then, no problem.  The police decide to pick me up.  They make up some
> bullshit charge.  They arrest me.
> 	They then, after I make a phone call, have several people at the
> police station (people from tha party.  After all, if I am alone with a
> woman, there is no real reason for her to decline my offer to walk her
> alone, no?) who will attest to my story about my offering the woman an
> escort home, her refusing, and my saying to someone that I am going to
> follow her to make sure she gets home safely.  But, lets say that they do
> not buy it.  Okay, then...
> 	I will go to see a judge to see whether or not the case even needs
> to go to trial.  The judge has NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER (unless the police
> fabricate some, and, what would be the point of that?  More paperwork, AND
> an increased risk to them if it ever becomes proven that they fudged
> evidence) on which to reccommend a trial.  But, lets say he does (either he
> wasnt convinced by the witness who testify as to my intentions or the
> police lied)

You are counting on on the police NOT fabricating a charge to justify the fact
that they have arrested you.

The reason they DO that is because if they do not fabricate evidence (He jerked
away while we were frisking him) then the city buys a million dollar lawsuit
and they get their asses chewed out, if not long suspensions.

Plus bucko, in that situation you FIT the description of a rapist!

1. Flirted at party.
2. Asked to take her home. 
3. She declines, and you follow her there anyway.



> 	We go to trial, and, at the trial, my defense attorney points out
> my past record with nary a mark, except for, of course, the few letters of
> commendation I recieved for upstanding citizenship for when I assisted
> shore patrol while off duty, the 10 or so letters I recieved in
> appreciation for the crime prevention lectures and assistance I gave to
> others while on duty.  

If you defense attorney knew what he was doing, those L.O.C.s would NOT be
presented. Because the minute they are, you have opened up the door to
character evidence of individual acts. At that point, the defense may now
present charcter evidence of individual acts himself. He (or she) can presnrt
everyone who has ever observed you doing anyhting even remotely low. Every lie,
every petty larceny, ever word said in a demeaning fashion towards women or
other people (if you have done so) are now available to the prosecutor.

And if the prosecutor does not have anything worthwhile, the first time you try
an dbring all of those good acts up, the prosecutor will object based upon Rule
of Evidence SS608, and the judge will not permit you to show off all of your
good deeds.

Now, what were you saying?


> 	Basically, before I go on with this (and I will not, unless it is
> necessary for someone to see that there really isnt much that legally can
> happen to me for just walking down the same street, between 50 and 100
> yards from someone etc etc) I just want to point out that my past record,
> the fact that I *always* tell people (at least 5, or if there arent that
> many there, I will tell them all) that I am going out to make sure that the
> person gets home safely, combined with the fact that I have made NO
> threatening moves, combined with the fact that she would probably not flag
> down the police if she saw me (Perhaps she would think that she had left
> something at the party?) and so on...   Then, finally, combine that to the
> fact that police would not bother trumping up charges when it is pretty
> obvious whats going on, unless I bahaved like an asshole to them or was
> otherwise obnoxious...

There was a case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court regarding "dropsie" cases
(police claimed that the defendant dropped the drugs when he saw them
appraoching) where the NYC PROSECUTOR urged the Supreme Court to state such
evidence (drugs on the ground) should NOT be admissable, because police are far
to willing to drop it there themselves to make an arrest, and you think they
will not fabricate a charge to put a potential rapist off the streets?

They will do it for a $10 crack arrest, they will do it for you.

(If you disbelieve, let me know and I'll dig out the cite.) 

> 	Oh, yes, let us also not forget the one other thing that would make
> your scenario pretty impossible:  Most women who say that they are raped
> are not believed *ESPECIALLY* if they say it was someone they had met
> earlier.  It is sad but true, that this happens, but, sometimes it does
> protect an innocent person.  Now, considering also that even if she said
> that she never met me, that I ave witnesses who would attest to the fact
> that she had indeed met me at a party, or whatever, I don't think that it
> would get much farther than the police either telling me to go home or them
> dropping me off at the party and asking around. 

My hypo INVOLVED her stating you met at the party!

And, you keep counting on your record to stay clean.
 
> 	Sorry to all the people who got the point here, I just wanted to be
> sure that DC also got it, so I am forced to make sure that I explain as
> many of the statements as possible.  Seems that I cannot take any amount of
> comprehension for granted.

Oh, I comprehended fully. It is you who do not comprehend the harsh reality of
how simple, and common it is for police to manufacture a charge.


> 
> 
>>
>>You worry about THEIR records? You think someone with a cam-corder will be
>>there to record your conversation with them? When you are before the judge,
>>they will tell their story, you will tell yours, and you will be found guilty.
>>
>>DO NOT KID YOURSELF! Judges and juries both view a police officer's testimnoy
>>as being much more honest that they accused who is claimng "They made it up!"
>>
> 	Since I above showed why it would (barring a Quantum Miracle) not
> come to a trial, why should I need to, anymore?  Hell, if it did come to a
> trial, yes, I would think that they would have reason to worry.  Remember,
> ever since LA people have been a little less likely to accept the word of a
> cop.

Those cops were not found guilty. The jury believed what they said over a video
tape they got to watch.

You should be more up on current events.


> 
>>> 
>>>>
>>>>> 	As far as following the guys who walk alone, I usually will do that
>>>>> too, just in case.  Anyone can get jumped. I have been attacked a few
>>>>> times, and in one case, I was lucky enough to have been spotted by a friend
>>>>> and helped out.  
>>>>> 	Call me stupid, but, I am willing to take a risk that I have been
>>>>> informed about and trained to deal with (as much as you can be prepared for
>>>>> an attack, I guess) if it means that someone who may or may not have been
>>>>> trained as well might be in danger.  I don't think this makes me a hero, or
>>>>> anything like that, I just think that it gives someone else a better chance
>>>>> of avoiding an attack.
>>>>> 	Sam
>>>>
>>>>Gee Sam, where you ever attacked while walking BACK from one of your
>>>>involuntary escort trips? Don't you realize ALL you are doing is taking the
>>>>odds someone else will be a victim and transferring them to you?
>>> 
>>> 	1) NONE of my trips are involuntary.  I do them because I feel the
>>> necessity to.  I am happy to do them.  And, yes, I do realize trhat I am
>>> adding a risk to myself, and, if you look rather closely at the paragraph
>>> of mine above (the one that you quoted in your response) you would see that
>>> I acknowledge the increase of risk to myself, for the reason that I have
>>> had some training that most have not, and based on my past experiences,
>>> have used that training to lessen my risks a bit.  I am willing to take a
>>> chance on something happening to me BECAUSE I FEEL THAT I WOULD BE BETTER
>>> ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT THAN SOMEONE ELSE.  
>>
>>I am gald we all have Sam to protect us from our own folly!
> 
> 	Hey, if more people were willing to do something, other than whine
> about the futility of escorting someone, that is, there might be less need
> for me or anyone else to escort people.  

Yes, let us all go out and force our views on other people in the name of
safety!

>>
>>>>
>>>>I mean, if that is what you want to do, it is a free country, knock yourself
>>>>out. Just don't act surprised when it happens, 'cause you are making yourself a
>>>>prime candidate for sharing experiences with the woman in your first paragraph.
>>>>
>>> 
>>> 	Hey, like I said, I have been attacked several times, with varying
>>> intents, and I am still alive, healthy, and happy with life.  I know the
>>> risks, and I accept them.  No one is putting a gun to my head and forcing
>>> me to escort people.  
>>
>>Right. You merely force other people to accept YOUR views.
>>
>>
>>>>DC
>>> 
>>> Sam
>>> 
>>> PS:  SInce, after reading my words in the above paragraph, where it says
>>> that I understand the risks and so forth, and I feel better able to deal
>>> with an attack situation, and also seeing my response, restating my
>>> position on that, could you, DC, please not use the "Don't you know
>>> the risks?  Dont you realize that all you do is increase your personal
>>> danger?" idea anymore.  I have answerred it several times in language that
>>> is fairly unequivocal, and I would preferr a discussion on this more
>>> appropriate to this forum, rather than just being told that I am waiting to
>>> become a victim...  I think that I know this, and, also, like I said, I
>>> think that I am more prepared to deal with that situation, if it comes up
>>> again.
>>> 
>>
>>I am fully aware that you know the risks. What you are not aware of is that you
>>are forcing other people to accept your views by forcefully escorting them.
>>
>>DC
> 
> 
> 	As I stated above, l do not see how my following someone at a
> distance (and, you cannot claim that you did nto know this, as one of your
> major points was related to how the police would treat me because I was
> following someone...) effects their choices?  Now, if someone told me point
> blank that they *WANT* to be mugged/raped/otherwise attacked, then yes, it
> *WOULD* be interfering if I helped prevented this.  But, since I doubt
> anyone would want the attentions of an attacker, I say, sheah, RIIIIGHT.

Wrong. They have stated they do not wish your escort. You do not give them a
choice. As for them possibly being raped while walking alone, and them being
grateful you were there, you are making up something that modifies their
opinion.

But that does NOT change the situation the way it is  when you follow them out
the door. You decide what is best for them, and they get no say in the matter.

Once more, many thanks for destroying other people's autonomy to suit your
selfish desires.

(And, do not say you are doing it for them, you do it for yourself because you
feel compelled to.)


> 	Also, just to restate the above, I do *NOT* tell people that they
> should not do something (and, just because I tell someone that they should
> not do something, does that mean that I am preventing them from doing it?)
> I caution people against going out alone, and I insist on escorting them.
> If they then refuse, I follow them.  Simple.  They get the idea that they
> havent been escorted, and I have helped them.  I havent forced anyone to
> take any actions that they do not want to do.  Quite simple.

Quite simple if you gloss over the fact they didn't want you there, you did it
anyway.

Do you also look into cars and remind them to wear their seatbelts?
Do you leave notes on cars reminding people to get new tires if their old ones
are worn?
Do you walk around people's business checking their doors so you can tell them
if any are unlocked?
Do you try and talk people into wearing more sunscreen or coming in out of the
sun?

DC