HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: PC (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...)
Date: 9 Nov 92 09:52:43
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Nov8.173804.12233@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<LJT3.92Nov8210937@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: ljt3@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU's message of 9 Nov 92 02:09:37 GMT

In article <LJT3.92Nov8210937@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> ljt3@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (LEWIS JOSEPH TANZOS III) writes:
[In response to Mike Lloyd]
>But you're going at it _backwards_.  Language doesn't change attitudes,
>attitudes change language.  PC was intended to point out abusive attitudes.
>It was not intended as a pedantic attempt to change speech.  But in many
>cases, the people are PC for the sake of PC, and that's not what it's all
>about.

This is the problem with the term "PC."  It has now come to be used as a
way to discredit someone's ideas.  If I come to a conclusion based on my
own thoughts and ideas, but it happens to be one that someone else
disagrees with, rather than arguing the merits of my ideas/actions with
me, they say "oh, you're just being PC" meaning that my ideas are not to
be taken seriously.  I don't see any reason to take *that* person
seriously, since the best they can do in the face of an idea they don't
like is label and reject it.

>>I do suggest, however, that the only alternative to being poltically
>>correct is to be politically incorrect;
>Does it really matter how I say what I want to say?  Or does it matter
>how I treat the people?

"PC" is not just language, it is thoughts and actions, too.  So, if you,
for example, express the thought that women are not inferior to men and
should not be treated as such, you are being PC (worse, you've been
brainwashed by the evil feminists, who are, of course, PC as all heck).
Just try it in alt.feminism and see what I mean...*grin*.

>>Sorry, Graham.  I don't see it.  "Forced and artificial"?  "Woolly-
>>minded"?

>Yep.  I agree with Graham.  In many cases, PC-ness is a reason that
>people won't take you seriously, because they think it's silly.

Yeah, it's silly to have ideas like everyone should be treated as
individuals, rather than discriminated against because they happen to
belong to a particular group, and to insist on expressing them.  It's
silly to think that maybe we shouldn't destroy the environment we have
to live in, and take steps to try to reduce that destruction.  Both of
these concepts have gotten me labelled as PC, without any question of
what words I choose to use.  Well, guess what?  I was able to figure
those things out for myself; I didn't subscribe to the PC newsletter to
tell me what to think.  Not that anyone who likes to use PC as a
derogatory term will believe that.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Weavers' fingers flying on the loom/patterns shift too fast to be
 discerned/all these years of thinking/ended up like this/in front
 of all this beauty/understanding nothing~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: wups!
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:34:13 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


}In article <1992Nov11.185637.11738@ctp.com>, sthor@ctp.com (Sarah Thornburg)
}writes:
}|} }Q:  how many of soc.biers are married?  just curious.
}|} }
}|} }js
}|} 
}|} I'm engaged - does that count?
}|} (And the finace is bi also, although as far as I know, he doesn't read this
}|} group) so if you count engaged, that makes 2 of us!
}|} 
}|} So we can hug each other together!
}|} 
}|} *Sarah*  :)
}|} 
}
}sure, why not.  
}
}I think it's *grand* that you *both* are bi!
}gets you past the understanding-curve, doesn't it?
}
}*hugs* *hugs* *hugs*
}js
 
     I'm in a similar situation..  My fiancee was very, very fuzzy 
about her orientation for about three years, thought she was bi 
for two of them, but has pretty firmly decided that she's het.  
     I, on the other hand, have no doubts about my bisexuality..  
If I'm not bi, how come that cuddly (male) lust object in my 
Cybernetics class gives my adreanal gland a turbo option?  :-)
 
     I'm very grateful that she understands..  This relationship's 
been rocky enough without problems about sexual orientation.
 
/---\ /---\ /=   /   ttk@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (the troglodyte killer)
  =     =    = /    "Home is a place that keeps the rain off my computer"
  =     =    = \     B0 f- t+ w- g k s- m+ r- p-(++)     ______
  =     =    =   \                      silence = death   \bi/
                                                           \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd)
Subject: Re: a tiny bit more out
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 16:56:16 GMT

sthor@ctp.com (Sarah Thornburg) writes:
: This is my first post here, ... I am what I am and I'm damn happy about it.

Gosh, some muffins make it *so* easy!  Wild'n'wooly welcomes!  We're
damn happy that you're damn happy!  (Nobody mind me speaking for the
group on such an issue?  Good.)  Have a *hug* or several.

: But I am curious what other people expect when they do wear their pins or
: Tshirts or whatever?

Oh, not much, in my case.  It started as an experiment, to see if
anything would happen; nothing obvious did.  Now I just wear all the
stuff I have because I like it.  Personally, I like jewellery, but I
also like it to be meaningful.  The same goes for my t-shirts; I don't
own any bi-pride ones, but almost all the ones I do have contain some
reference to who I am or what I like.  

When I shop for jewellery (often with street-traders), I find I don't
want an ankh (bad religious vibes); I find the peace symbol to be too
devalued.  I have one pair of (slightly odd) yin-yang earrings, and
that's plenty.  All this stuff has significance in it, which many people
ignore and wear the designs anyway.  Personally, I choose to be picky,
and to wear designs which, to those who know, say something, however
minor, which is true, rather than herd-driven.  (Apologies to all those
who wear ankhs, or especially peace symbols, for better reasons!)

Now, I never seem to post these days without some sociopolitical power
reference, and this is no exception.  I wear my gay/bi jewellery because
I can.  Many people cannot.  I have little to fear, and I know it.  I am
white and male, in a workplace filled with white men: I fit already, and
my "foibles" are more easily tolerated.  Even if they weren't, my stay
here is temporary, so who cares?  Finally, in extremis, I don't look like
an easy assault victim (even though I suspect I would be).  

So I can happily advertise my sexuality with rings, necklaces, bolas, or
whatever.  I also enjoy it, being a closet exhibitionist :-)  There is
no judgement implied, by me at any rate, of those who don't.

One more round of hugs
Mike, not wearing anything just now (unless you count a pair of trangle
earrings), but likely to put on, lessee, freedom rings and/or a
"circle-cross-arrow" necklace when he gets his act together for the day
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
From: daveb@harlqn.co.uk (Dave Berry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: books
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:56:35 GMT
Organization: Harlequin Ltd, Cambridge, UK

>panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden) writes:
>>Can people suggest and/or list books that are about gays and bi's but are 
>>not SF & F?

Heavens, there are hundreds of books about lesbians and gay men.
See the entire output of the Gay Men's Press, much of the women's
presses, and many books from mainstream publishers (albeit a small
fraction of their total output).

Bi books are harder to find.  I'd rather see a thread that concentrates
on bi books.  When lesbian and gay books get mixed in, it's hard to
find the ones that are particularly bi-relevant.  Perhaps when people
recommend books they could state whether they're lesbian, bisexual or gay?

rowan@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Rowan Hammond) writes:
>Is it appropriate to mention Maupin at this point??

At the Norwich conference someone suggested that his books are bi-negative.
The argument was that, given the setting, they expected to find at least
one bisexual character in there somewhere!  They were disappointed when
all the charcaters turned out to be either straight or lesgay.

Dave.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: daveb@harlqn.co.uk (Dave Berry)
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Organization: Harlequin Ltd, Cambridge, UK
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:53:35 GMT

gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>I make my mind up about 'PC' issues on
>each case, on its merits, not simply follow the party line.

You know what, Graham?  SO DO I.  Which is why it really pisses me off
when someone (such as yourself) starts accusing me of following a party line,
or not thinking for myself, or similar jibes.

Surely you can see the difference between someone saying to me:

	"I disagree.  You say X, but what about Y.  I think Z..."

and someone saying:

	"I really hate this PC party-line attitude.  Why don't
	 you think for yourself, you woolly-minded idiot?  I
	 think this group has lost it's sense of humour ..."

The first is polite, the second is rude.  The first is constructive,
the second is destructive.  Dammit, the first is potentially *interesting*,
while the second is just a waste of space.

>I must say, I'm really impressed by the way this group has (ahem) bent
>over backwards to indulge all sorts of bigots and loudmouths,

I honestly don't know what you're talking about here.

>Just because I made an inoffensive joke at Ciaran's expense

It wasn't the joke at Ciaran's expense that I found offensive, it was
the one at the expense of any straight people who post or who would
consider posting to soc.bi.  In my reply I tried to say that I was just
stating my opinion, but you just accused me of being "thought police".
As if I actually had any power over you!  As Stephen Conley said here
recently, "By allowing someone's opinion of you [or in this case, one of
your actions] to make you feel oppressed, you create your own oppression".

(I disagree with Stephen's extension of this remark, when he said that such
a person has earned their oppression.  Self-confidence is not always easy
to come by, especially in a hostile environment.)


Another thing that really pisses me off is when I take the trouble to explain
something to someone (in this case the pricing policy of the bisexual
conferences), and the person concerned simply says "I don't believe you".
It doesn't exactly contribute to an atmosphere of constructive discussion,
does it?

Dave.

P.S. Several times durting this thread I've been tempted to flame Graham
into the ground, but I've resisted the temptation.  I want a medal :-)
(But I'll settle for a hug :-) ).
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: This has probably already been asked...
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:20:22 GMT

In <MUFFY.92Nov11080835@remarque.berkeley.edu>
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>[question about rejection by both straights and gays]
>>As an analogy: hurt often hurts more if it comes from a friend or
>>family member rather than from a stranger.
>>
>>So, as a bisexual person, I can expect to get shit from straight people.
>>To me, the straight people are "strangers" in the analogy. When a GL
>>person (who are "family") gives me shit, it hurts much more than
>>*comparable* [1] shit from a straight person.
>
>I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious as to the reasoning.  Why is it
>that you see straight people as the strangers and GL people as the
>family?

I don't think it is uncommon for people who suffer similar forms of
oppression to think of the shared oppression as a bonding force. For
example, black men referring to each other as "brother" (disclaimer:
there are few black folk in Ireland so I am basing this on what I've
seen on TV, read in books etc; it could be just a stereotype),
feminists using the term "sisters" when referring to other women, GLB
folk using the term "family" to refer to somebody who is also GLB.

Hence my use of "family" for GLB people in the analogy. Perhaps
"not-family" would have been a more accurate term than "strangers" for
sraight people, but I occasionally get sloppy in my terminology.

What I think happens is that many bi folk (i) think of other bi folk as
"family", and (ii) think of GL folk as "family" too. (It could be
argued that (ii) is more-naive/less-valid than (i).)


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: rowe@engin.umich.edu (Steven Rowe)
Subject: Another ex-muffin
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 00:02:47 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

Steve attempts to give Zoe a demuffining hug.
Zoe ducks.
Steve mutters, "rats!  missed!" and falls in a heap on the floor.
Zoe asks, "are you o.k.?"
Steve feigns unconsciousness.
Zoe leans over to examine more closely
Steve makes a grab.  He connects!
Hi Zoe!  *hug* *lick*
-- 
Steve Rowe: B0 f- w- c g+ k+ s- e+ r-
     These folks who don't believe in evolution
are the ones who look the most like they could use some.
                                   -Frank Allison
From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: more out at work
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:42:45 GMT
Organization: savage hackers
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu's message of 9 Nov 92 16:17:31


In article <MUFFY.92Nov9161731@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
> [freedom rings on jacket]
> The receptionist asked where I got them (she already knew what they
> were).  One of the other admin people was there and wanted to know what
> they were.  No other responses so far, but people *are* noticing...

  Muffy's too modest to say, but she did a really neat job of arranging
this -- she coiled/intertwined the chain that holds the freedom rings
together with the rings themselves, making a very attractive spiral
looking thing that's hard to describe (perhaps she could do this better
justice.)

  Anyway, no one around here seems to care or notice that I wear big
pink shirts or buttons or handcuffs or anything else.  If I wore a big
shirt of two same-sex types having sex, or maybe three of various sexes
doing the same to show a more bi-bent, the only thing I'd hear would be
that I shouldn't wear such explicit sexual material to work (they're
very careful about sexual harassment around here.)  Sigh.  You'd think
they *expect* me to be weird or something (and here I am, in this
corporate wasteland...)  It takes the fun out of trying to educate
people or make them aware of something if everyone already seems to know
already... the only comment I ever got from anyone was this older woman
(maybe 50 or 60 or so) who asked me what my "silence = death" shirt
meant.  After telling her, she thanked me, said "you always have such
interesting shirts", and then walked off.

  Of course, this is california, but still...

 -- d
From: szgray@hamlet.ucdavis.edu (Degenerate Amongst Angels)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Halibut!
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:37:10 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis
Originator: szgray@hamlet.ucdavis.edu

Hullo, all.  Keisha here, kinda sorta demuffining maybe again but not quite.

I Need a favor from all the smart, sexy, wonderfully open people here on
soc.bi.  

I've been having a little trouble lately with our newsgroup system, so I never
know whether or not what I post ever gets anywhere.  So if you see this message
can you send me E-mail telling when you saw it and where?  (And if you'd
like to drop a few lines about yourself in the process, go right ahead;
I do a great reply.)

Thank you, kind people, and let the mailings begin!!

With much kissing and hugging and stuff,

--keisha (degenerate amongst angels)
philosophy of life:
we go in, we come out--
nobody move, nobody get hurt.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Do they make a washing powder called Caliban Automatic?
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:25:58 GMT

In article <Bx8vFG.I4D@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>I just worry that my friends
>>sometimes sound as if they're entirely mad.
>>I'd sooner a pagan astrologer over an anarcho-capitalist any day, though.
>
>Why?  They're both "mad", aren't they?

Neither are "mad".  I have an easier time coping with the beliefs of
anarcho-capitalists than pagan astrologers; but generally the pagan
astrologers are the ones I'll want to get to know.  Note my use of the
phrase "as if" in the bit you quoted.

>I still think your signature is crazy.  You're saying "I'm the boy
>without a non-existent thing", no?  Surely we're *all* without all
>non-existent things...

It's from "Inject me" on "This is the Day... This is the Hour... This is
THIS!" by Pop Will Eat Itself: "I'm the boy without a soul, no hot love,
no worldly goal, inject me... cut the lights and shut the doors, use,
abuse, take me I'm yours, inject me..."

It sometimes crosses my mind that maybe the reason other people think
that self-awareness is a big deal and I don't is because they're self
aware and I'm not.  When I put this to them, it worries them.  There is
some sense in there, but it's best explained over a pint.
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul"   \/
From: tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver)
Subject: Re: a tiny bit more out
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 01:46:34 GMT

 mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
>tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver) writes:
>: I wear my silver honest-these-
>: two-androgynous-people-are-*just-holding-hands* badge, and people just say
>: "oh, pretty".
>
>Did someone say "two pretty androgynous people"?  Where?  WHERE???

I liked the transgendered-to-neuter person on Kilroy. Ke was cool! Two
pretty androgynous people... well, many many combinations throng my mind |-)

>Oh damn, what a giveaway.

<evil smirk>

>So, Tanaqui, care to describe this badge a little , now you've, ah,
>piqued my interest?  Don't believe I've seen you wear it ..

I was wearing it at the Pear Tree Incident... it's a square of flat silver
with the pair mentioned incised on it... they're wearing shorts, and holding
hands across the square in such a way that people who see it often think
initially that they're doing more than holding hands. A good embrace! 

I tend to wear it most of the time. Oh, and the square is worn canted onto
one point so it looks like a diamond-shape.

Tanaqui
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:47:27 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Do they make a washing powder called Caliban Automatic?

In article <BxBLKn.1y6@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

I'd just like to underline how embarrasing it is for me to have this guy
appear to be one of my allies.

>I must say, I'm really impressed by the way this group has (ahem) bent
>over backwards to indulge all sorts of bigots and loudmouths, but as
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think we went too far in indulging you, and it couldn't have stopped
early enough.

>soon as one of your own dares to criticise you on the grounds of 'PC',
>it's daggers drawn and stabs in the back.  Sheesh.

This is disingenuous.  No-one on this group has ever claimed to be PC or
suggested that it's a good thing.  "PC" is a paper tiger, a blanket
insult.  The left call all their opponents "fascists" when they can't
think of anything to say, and the right call them "PC".  A few years
ago, anyone who wasn't 100% behind the Thatcher agenda were "loony
lefties"; now we're all "PC".  Give it a break.

>                                                    Just because I
>made an innofensive joke at Ciaran's expense that I thought he would
>be able to take against himself. I've said it before, I'll say it
>again.  This group has lost its sense of humour and sense of proportion.

Graham, we've lost patience with *you*.  Not everyone, not the world,
*just* *you*.  Your whining, your bigotry, your mindless insults and
ludicrous self justification.  Fuck off.
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul"   \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: a tiny bit more out
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:42:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.213850.19519@ctp.com> 
 sthor@ctp.com (Sarah Thornburg) writes:
>But I am curious what other people expect when they do wear their pins or
>Tshirts or whatever?  Before I even considered the fact that I was bisexual
>myself I would see people wearing shirts or pins, openly proclaiming their
>sexuality, but it wouldn't occur to me even now to go up to them and
>say,"hey, I notice you're wearing a bisexual pride Tshirt?  Are you bi?" Or
>to tell them that I respected them for wearing it?

One of my reasons for wanting to do this sort of thing -- though I
don't do it as often as I used to because of rules at work -- is that
research shows that people who knowingly meet someone who is lesbigay
tend to become less homophobic as a result even if the interaction is not
positive.

It's a low-key way to say "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!".

At the same time, I also like to remind people I'm bi, to keep it part of my
public persona, since this is rarely the "default" assumption.

When I was wearing buttons/badges to work regularly, i.e. "I support
Lesbian Families" -- I would get into conversation about once every
month or two.  Depending on the tone, I might explain "what that means"
personally or in the abstract i.e.

 - Not all families are the traditional nuclear family
 - I contribute to the Lesbian Mothers National Defense Fund
 - Some of my close friends are lesbian mothers (natural or adoptive)

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................