From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:43:02 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <Aug.18.02.17.19.1992.27155@aramis.rutgers.edu> SECBH@cunyvm.bitnet writes:
>In article <Aug.17.02.12.08.1992.11350@athos.rutgers.edu>,
>ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) writes:
... 
>>thank you. I felt like a million bucks that night.
>            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I would say that from my viewpoint that this statement points to
>an essential snare which can corrupt giving and turn it into judgment.
>But what is the Christian basis for giving and the attitude about
>giving?
>
>Jack Carroll

I'm not entirely clear as to why my phrase "I felt like a million bucks
that night" got emphasis, but it was a figure of speech meaning that I
felt very good inside for having helped the man in the story.

To clarify just a bit (and thus return to the original question of why
suffering exists), my essential point is that what poverty we see here
in the richest country in the world is not always what it appears to be.
There certainly are people who were sucked in by it through no choice of
their own - especially the young children wherever they are. These are
not the people to whom I refer with my startling statement "Most
downtrodden and oppressed people volunteered for the position". (See
my earlier posting.)

My opinion is that much of the hardship we see and hear so much about
on the news in our country is rather easy to explain and understand.
So I'd like to say that some suffering we witness is clearly the result
of folly, arrogance and stupidity on the part of the sufferer, and some
suffering we witness is heartbreaking in that it has no apparent or
reasonable explanation; the person suffering has done nothing we can
see or comprehend to bring it upon himself, yet he suffers, often a
horrible existence. 

I think (if memory serves) that the origin of this thread was a question
as to what some of us believe are the causes, explanations and usefulness
(if any) of suffering. 

To conclude this chapter of the thread, I summarize that in a land where
abundance and prosperity have long been standard and thus few genuine
excuses can be found for indolence, poverty and shortage, most of the
people we see suffering hardship have made mistakes or pursued foolish
paths which have come to their only plausible endpoint. There shouldn't
be anything to ask of God on this matter since Proverbs (and other books)
give us ample explanation.  BUT... there are some cases of suffering which
just plain leave us all dumbfounded.

In the strictest sense, surely NONE of us DESERVE anything good at all,
for "we all like sheep have gone astray" and "there is none that seeks
after God" and "there is none righteous, no not one". So the question,
to my mind, comes down to: why do some people, no better than the next man
or woman, escape in this life from serious pain or suffering, while others,
at least as decent if not more so, are hit with some of the worst suffering?
Or, to invert the idea, if none of us are deserving of anything good, why
don't we all suffer as badly as some of those we know of who are, as far
as any of us can tell, no different than we are?  

My "most downtrodden people" statement was to rule out a large number
of people we are now hearing so much about on the news and being
suggested to (not so subtly) that it is the fault of the rest of us
that they are where they are. This should now confine what we are
talking about to people for whom (and to a world in which) suffering comes
for no apparently good reason. It is enough to shake the beliefs of any
sane person. 

Example (one that strikes me hardest, anyway): Joni Earekson Tada.
What conspiracy of circumstances and minor events was allowed to 
transpire in her young life such that she was to be found on that
rock on that particular day, to dive into that shallow water, and
to then suffer what she suffered?  Assuming she was not in some way
foolish or arrogant or "deserving" of it (I am assuming she was not,
but simply the victim of a more or less random accident), the 
question is why?

Second Example (one that strikes the pastor who told it to me hardest):
One afternoon during his childhood, Gary (last name deleted) and his
best friend were out exploring some cliffs near their homes. They
took a minute to sit down beside each other on the rim of one of the
cliffs, and then suddenly, with no warning, a portion of it gave way.
18 inches to his side, his best friend was seated over the portion which
gave away and fell screaming to his death. It haunted Gary ever thereafter:
why? Why the other boy and not him? What did that boy do to "deserve" it?

If we say suffering is random, then where does God have a place? If we say
it is all God's permission, then what is His purpose and how fair can it
be? If we say it is Satan, then can Satan defy God in something God does
not want to happen? Not according to scripture.
Not all suffering (as far my limited mind can understand) is man-caused,
intentional, deserved.

PS: Jack, I admire the help you are willing to extend to the homeless,
whatever the causes of their hardships. In this you are a far more patient
and generous man than I am. I still cannot get over that young woman using
a newborn infant as a prop to deceive people.  I just do not believe everybody
I see who claims to be an innocent victim or a desperately poor person. Some
desperately poor people are right where they ought to be till they learn to
fly right. I still think so; it's going to take a heck of a lot to convince
me otherwise.

						All The Best To You and Yours
								Pete