HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smehta@kwela.nynexst.com (Sandeep Mehta)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Reply-To: smehta@nynexst.com
Organization: Speech Technology, AI Lab, NYNEX S&T Inc, White Plains, NY
	<1993Jan20.184905.13887@draco.macsch.com>
	<SMEHTA.93Jan20172059@kwela.nynexst.com>
	<1993Jan21.185157.29087@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Date: 22 Jan 93 10:45:24


> rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:

> I wrote:
> >
> >Aaah, the fresh smell of napalm in the air :-) ... But then Wilde put
> >it best: "Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
> >he is called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason."
> 
> Hey! Stop reading those quotes in back of Forbes magazine! 

Forbes?? What's that?? :-) Sir, you forget that most of us are
"card-carrying" liberals, feminists, dadaists, part-nihilists and
wouldn't be caught dead with Forbes :-/ or any other part of Malcolm
Forbes' empire; except maybe his motorcycles :-)

However, some of us did grow up with reading tastes that went beyond
engineering texts and by some twist of biological fate some of what
we read stuck in our sub-conscious. I realize that it is the most
unusual thing for us to remember these pithy words insteads of
memorizing the latest fixed-point mortgage rates across the land.
Forgive me, but I read The WIRE, The Nation, Option, Village VOICE
and other such not-so-glossy trash and will be glad to quote from
there if you like? :-)

You may now return to regularly scheduled somnambulance... |-)

/sandeep
--
smehta@nynexst.com
--
        "This space of time is organized. We need not fear these
	 silences, -- we may love them." -- John Cage, Silences, 1961.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: bongo@splash.Princeton.EDU (Ameet A. Ravel)
Subject: Re: Amirthi's SF list
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:49:40 GMT

Amirthi, I haven't looked line by line at the whole list, but I am
glad to see that you picked up Joan Slonczewski, Ursula LeGuin, and
Marge Piercy -- three of my favorite recent SF writers.  I actually
used to be into Heinlein and Larry Niven, until I started puking on
the sexism and/or homophobia.

It looks like a good list to take with me to the library next time I
have a free weekend!

--
Ameet A. Raval                   Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory
email: bongo@splash.princeton.edu                Princeton, N.J. 08542
disclaimer: Mine, they're mine, I tell you!        phone: 609-452-6563
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pandit@ssd.intel.com (Milind Pandit)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division (SSD), Intel
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:55:39 GMT

In article <1jqkrq$abm@agate.berkeley.edu> mvij@soda.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
>First off, I want to thank this guy for total lack of flame-age in
>his message:

You're welcome!  I try...  :-)

>I agree with much of what you say.  Yet this is no defense of Maneesh
>[from Vanderbilt]'s views.  If you agree that cross-cultural dating and
>marriage is wrong, please be prepared to back up your beliefs.

In many cases it certainly is not wrong.  Whether or not to date/marry
cross-culturally is a personal decision.  It can be made for the wrong
(stupid, counterproductive, self-defeating) reasons.  My point is that
it is reasonable to say that the inevitable evolution of our imperfect
culture can be directed in a positive direction through such contact,
and it is equally reasonable to point out that the positive values and
traditions of our culture might be compromised or forgotten through
such intimate contact with another culture.  These are positive
reasons for either decision, motivated by respect and self-esteem.  The
negative reasons end up being, "Our culture sucks, so abandon it as
fully as possible by dating/marrying cross-culturally." and "All other
cultures suck, so don't allow any contact with them."  The former is
motivated by self-hatred, and the latter by racism, both rooted in
ignorance.  

-- 
Milind S. Pandit			| pandit@ssd.intel.com
Operating Systems Engineer		|
Intel Supercomputer Systems Division	| Standard Disclaimers Apply
From: RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu (Radhakrishna Reddy)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Mixed Marriages
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:25:58 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

In article <bjag-260193123923@owl.ls.nwu.edu>, bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh)
says:
>   [stuff deleted]
>I think there's a difference between black/white marriages & indian/white
>marriages because most indians already live in the white world (in terms of
>education, income, etc.). I doubt if indian/white children are particularly
>more likely to identify with whites & the white culture than fully indian
>children. An indian is less likely to be in the situation where she's
>discriminated against while her children can "pass" as white. Add to this
>the fact that some fully indian people don't seem obviously non-white and I
>think the situation becomes very different.
>
>I know a few indian/american adults (about my age). In general, they do
>seem to identify with whites, but then so do most indian/indian adults that
>I know. All the indian/americans I know look like mildly "exotic" whites,
>that is, no one can really identify their ethnic descent and identify them
>as alternately, hispanic, italian, arabic, or persian. Also, because their
>parents made these marriages in a much less tolerant age, and when there
>were far fewer indians in the US, I think they were forced to "chose" a
>culture to belong to more than children would these days. Their parents
>were professionals, so in most cases, it seems that their parents chose the
>white culture, which they were generally allowed to do in the us because of
>their social status.
>
>Bharathi Jagadeesh                 bjag@nwu.edu
Get real the only reason that I-A's identify with whites is that the
culture here is white.  So whenever they step out the door almost all they
see is white.  Also we're not stupid, if you are accepted as a psuedo-white
then why identify with group that is actively discriminated against (namely
blacks).  I think I-A's need to wake up to the fact we are not white and
never will be.  We should be building alliances with other minorities
because we are in the same boat.  If we decide to isolate ourselves, we'll
get the same results as the Koreans in L.A.  I-A's sometimes delude
themselves into thinking that eventually white America will accept us,but
it will not unless we force them to accept us along with other
minorities.(Sorry I guess I got a little preachy)

                                       Krishna
From: RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu (Radhakrishna Reddy)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Divorce Rate (was Dissension ...)
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:16:14 GMT
 <1jseo9$gu2@agate.berkeley.edu> <93026.001831RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu>
 <1993Jan26.213607.13114@scic.intel.com>
Organization: Penn State University

In article <1993Jan26.213607.13114@scic.intel.com>, venkat@scic.intel.com
(Venkat Iyer) says:
>
>In article <93026.001831RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu> Radhakrishna Reddy
><RXR108@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>I am really starting to get annoyed at this 50% rate of divorce that is
>>quoted everywhere I look.  My understanding is that these figures are
>>reached by counting the number of divorces in a year and then comparing them
>>to the number of new marriages.  So the number of divorces include the
>>marriages from the previous years.  Why aren't they included in the figures?
>>I mean if the divorce rate was 50-70% you would see a lot more divorced
>  [stuff deleted]
>Actually the statistic is that more than 50% of marriages end in divorce.
>But close to 75% of the people are still living with their first spouse.
>I think you can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory statistics
>if you realize that some people marry and divorce more than once; in
>some cases several times.
>
>--
>      Venkat  Iyer - SCIC - Intel Corporation

    Well I was sort of wrong, but thanks Venkat because you are helping
my point.  The main reason the 50% figure is quoted is to show the breakdown of
 the traditional family unit, but if 75% of people still live with their
original spouse then the American family unit must be at least surviving
despite what those on the right say.

                                     Krishna
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:13:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.175805.20052@ctp.com> pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.082945.20112@news.vanderbilt.edu> MARDHEMS@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu () writes:
>My name's Maneesh, and I can't understand for the life of me why there
>>is not a single conservative voice of reason in any of these messages. This is
>>                conservative voice of reason 
>
>
>		Isn't that an oxymoron?  
>
>We certainly have reasonable voices here - but they're not conservative.
>And we have a prominently conservative voice, but its usually anything
>but reasonable... I think you ask for too much, perhaps? :)

It's is indeed our good fortune to have so many reasonable voices who 
consider themselves liberals. I love to listen to people about their
social experiments from their ivory towers. ;)


Rakesh "The Conservative" Patel
From: mvij@soda.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Date: 23 Jan 1993 05:25:14 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

First off, I want to thank this guy for total lack of flame-age in his message:

In article <C19zzA.7v2@SSD.intel.com> pandit@ssd.intel.com (Milind Pandit) writes:

>I don't think Maneesh's comments were idiotic or ignorant, and I don't
>think they should be ignored.  I think they were opinions stated in a
>manner lacking tact and sensitivity.

They should not be ignored precisely because they are shared by the vast
majority of the first generation S.Asian immigrants.  As for ignorance,
education is supposed to open one's mind.  Someone who is an advocate of
racial separation in dating is being very closeminded.  With few exceptions,
the more educated people become, the more tolerant and less racist they
become.  In that sense, the comments are ignorance.

>Any one who doesn't believe that Indians have a unique culture and
>traditions they can be proud of is blind.  It is ridiculous to
>suppress everything that makes us unique as a
>nation/state/religion/caste/family/individual by speaking of a single,
>homogeneous planet and race.  Like any other heritage, our values and
>traditions sometimes weigh us down with useless baggage, and sometimes
>liberate and help us.

I agree.  Simply calling to ignore differences between people seems shallow
to me, and should be restricted to lyric alone.  It's the difference between
a 9-year-old's understanding of the world, and a 25-year-old's.  The
ideals are still ideals, but not quite as untarnished, and not as lacking
in depth of understanding.

>It does make sense to express pride in whatever makes us unique as
>long as we don't promote hatred for people who are different from us.
>It also makes sense to get rid of outdated baggage and accept helpful
>and liberating values from others, without sacrificing our own.

Can it be?  A conservative voice of reason?  :-) :-) :-)

I agree with much of what you say.  Yet this is no defense of Maneesh
[from Vanderbilt]'s views.  If you agree that cross-cultural dating and
marriage is wrong, please be prepared to back up your beliefs.

Manish [from Cal]



                  \_\_\_
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 \_   \_        \_     \_   \_\_   \_
 \_   \_        \_     \_  \_   \_ \_
 \_   \_  \_\_\_\_     \_       \_ \_       /-\O /-()  ____  __   _
\_\_\_\_   \_   \_     \_      \_  \_       \_/ \\/ )  __      __
 \_   \_        \_     \_  \_\_    \_            |/_\  ____  __   _
      \_        \_     \_     \_   \_             \_/ .    .   .  . ......
                                \_
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
Subject: Re: Interracial Dating, ABCD's, and Dissension
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:11:23 GMT

In article <C1F08s.Eqt@rice.edu> vijaypai@owlnet.rice.edu (Vijay Sadananda Pai) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.134349.2070@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
>
>Kennedy and Nehru were personally close, and that was certainly
>during the cold war. India and the US didn't really have problems
>until the US refused to sell arms to India (under Indira Gandhi) and 
>she in turn bought them from the USSR. Anyways, the Republicans
>you love so much have done nothing to change this pro-Pakistan
>policy, whereas at least the Democrats (specifically JFK) have
>had closer relations with India.

I didn't see Johnson or Carter breaking down any doors to change things
either. India is on the edge of US policy. Whatever happens in India,
it matters very little to the US.
 
 
>I said it before, and I'll say it again.
>The Republican party is the party of Pat "Religious War" Buchanan,
>David "The Grand Wizard" Duke, George "Willie Horton" Bush, and
>Jesse "The Artists, Jews, Blacks, and Immigrants are Ruining this 
>Country" Helms.

Any off course the Democracts have a virtual lock and integriety and
honor. People like Jesse Jackson, Ron Brown, Marion Barry don't
make me want to go out and join the Democractic Party. 

>If those are the people you'd support then so be it. I prefer the
>party of people like Bill Clinton <who spoke to several Indian
>and Asian Democratic Organizations in his race>, NC Governor
>Jim Hunt <who has been meeting with Indian groups over several decades>,
>and many others, who have acted without appealing to racism or 
>religious intolerance.

Party of the People!!!! Stop feed us that propaganda.  Bill Clinton - I
wouldn't trust that guy as far as I could throw him. The guy cheats on
his wife! Oh! Yes! I want him as my President.

>
>Anyway, it's no coincidence that the Pakistan lobby has
>purchased the services of one of the same ad agencies that
>ran George Bush's campaign.

What's wrong with that???? 


Rakesh  PAtel
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Mixed Marriages
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:47:35 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

I would like to start some convos regarding mixed marriages.
Let's try to keep the Nazi rhetoric and one planet, one species 
stuff out of the discussion if possible- I know its probably
inevitable, but we can try at least.

NPR recently had a short story on bi-racial families, specifically 
black & white couples. They interviewed a number of bi-racial 
children. It was interesting to hear the spectrum of attitudes that
the various young adults had. One of the questions was what race 
do they fill in on forms. 

I'm curious to see what others out there think of mixed marriages,
and specifically how the kids react to it. I've met a number of
II-WA children and AfrA-WA kids, but let's try to focus on the
II-WA and IA-WA offspring. This is an issue that most IAs are
going to have to deal with sooner or later. Hopefully we'll get
some input from some bi-racial people.

BTW, my nephew is IA-WA. 

Let the games begin.

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: "Les Miserables"
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:34:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.213918.27669@cirrus.com>, venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
> In article 26502@ctp.com, pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap) writes a summary of what Alok and TY write earlier:
> 
> >Alok:
> >It IS miserable! It is! It is! You would be hypocritical
> >if you said you didn't imply that parents are full of miserable
> >attributes. Ask my lawyer - he reads this newsgroup
> >every day ( just doing his job to stand by me ) and he remembers 
> >what you said two months ago! If you don't believe him,
> >ask Chelsea! 
> 
> not to mention that if none of them corroborate me by saying that you posted the stuff 2 months back, i am still right anyway. 
> 
> >Tapesh:
> [deep philosophy of misery deleted]
> >
> 
> though of course i could be wrong in my interpretation of what all this is about.

Preeti, Venu:

What's the purpose of all this crap ?
Evidence was asked of by Tapesh and it was provided by posting the excerpts
from past post of Tapesh. It was discussed by English majors and it was
decided that there was possibility of the perception that parents
are sheer misery. It was later clarified by Tapesh what he meant.
The matter was dropped.

So I don't understand why this rudeness is being showered on us, especially
me ?

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: atiwary@lonestar.utsa.edu (Ashu . Tiwary)
Subject: Indian Authors of English
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:36:17 GMT

Here are a few more books:

Cracking India, by Bapsi Sidhwa (1991: Milkweed Editions)
Train To Pakistan, by Kushwant Singh (1961: Grove Press)
Samskara, UR Anantha Murthy, tr by A K Ramanujan, (1978: Oxford)
Coolie, Mulk Raj Anand (1936, 1981: Arnold Heinemann)
The Serpent and The Rope, Raja Rao (1960: John Murray)
Chemmeen, P S Pillai, tr by N Menon (1964: Jaico Press)
Gitanjali, Tagore, tr by himself (1913: Macmillan)

By the way, refering to R K Narayan; I had the opportunity to 
take a class at UT Austin where he was a visiting prof for one
semester.  Although the class title was "Indian Authors of English", we
only discussed his works (probably because that's all we had time
for).  In an interesting note, he seemed very vehement in his disavowal
of any credit for the film version of "The Guide" - he said the ending had
been bastardized without his input.  I agree with him on his point, the
book's ending was much more powerful.

There's another book I only remember the title of: Nectar in the Sieve.
It was an excellent book, but I don't remember the author or publisher.

-Ashu

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Career Choices..
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:26:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.144123.19577@research.nj.nec.com>, rsd@ccrl.nj.nec.com (Rajiv Dighe) writes:
> Something I penned long long time ago on career choices in India.
> 
> 
> Rajiv
> 
> 			Middle-Class Blues
> 			(aka Male Menopause)
> 
> Engineering, Medicine or the Sciences
> Were the only allowances ...

Excellent poetry. You sure have a good potential to be a 'Hemingway'.

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: Loyalty to Who (was Dissension...)
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:38:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.134202.4339@cbfsb.cb.att.com> rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.211623.18146@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>I'd just like to point out that despite the word 'indian' in the
>>header of this newsgroup, there are many other asians reading this
>>group.
>>
>>I'm Sri Lankan by heritage, and would assume that there are a fair
>>number of Pakistanis reading, who would rightly be insulted by the
>>derogatory references to them in previous posts in this thread.

>Stop apologizing all the time! I think everyone knows that is group for
>people from or with decendants from the subcontinent.

For the record, I wasn't even close to apologizing.  I was trying to
point out that people were being narrow-minded and bigoted in company
that might not entirely approve.  I even attempted to do so in a
civilized manner...something you seem incapable of.

>Not everything in life is nice, pretty and pleasant. 

So you should deliberately contribute to the problem?

 - Amirthi
-- 
We may affirm absolutely that nothing great in the world has ever been
accomplished without passion.

					 - George Hegel
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
Subject: Re: Mixed Marriages
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:53:34 GMT

In article <1k6ih5INNsfg@menudo.uh.edu> mba2@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>>
>P.	Here we go again.  Yes, let's build alliances with other minorities.
>	And yes let's create a prejudice association in our colleges only
>	for Indian Engineers or Indian Doctors.

You are making a giant leap from what was said. No one suggest such a thing.

>	  You know one of the things
>	that really irked the hell out of me in college was that no one
>	seemed to understand reality all that well.  Look I've been called
>	names and "discriminated" against, but dammit that's people.  They
>	are going to find a reason to discriminate against you.  Fine, unite
>	and stand up for youself, but why the hell should I not try to
>	assimilate myself into the society.  People accept me for who I am,
>	if I don't make it a point to be different, as many of "them (whites)"
>	aren't going to "look-down" on me.

What do mean - assimilate. I think I will go and paint myself white tomorrow.
I have seen those many pathetic Indians with those stupid color lens. Indians
are always looking for approval. Indians don't what to associate with blacks,
chinese, japanese, and even other Indians for that matter. They just was to
forget and be white. Don't give us you story about how you have risen above
such petty matters of race, creed, etc. I think the point was that Indians
(not all) have a great disdain for non-whites. You only have to look in your
own house, family and friends.

>	 And FYI we are caucasian.  We're
>	not white.  You seem to confuse culture with color. 

Stop with the lecture in anthropology. We all know that Indians are techincally
classified as causcasian. But you very well that in minds of most of the
people on this planet - causcasian means only one thing - European. Also you
seem to disregard the fact that culture is tightly bounded to color.


Rakesh Patel
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Loyalty to Who (was Dissension...)
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:56:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jan26.163818.24841@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan26.134202.4339@cbfsb.cb.att.com> rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan25.211623.18146@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>I'd just like to point out that despite the word 'indian' in the
>>>header of this newsgroup, there are many other asians reading this
>>>group.
>>>
>>>I'm Sri Lankan by heritage, and would assume that there are a fair
>>>number of Pakistanis reading, who would rightly be insulted by the
>>>derogatory references to them in previous posts in this thread.
>
>>Stop apologizing all the time! I think everyone knows that is group for
>>people from or with decendants from the subcontinent.
>
>For the record, I wasn't even close to apologizing.  I was trying to
>point out that people were being narrow-minded and bigoted in company
>that might not entirely approve.  I even attempted to do so in a
>civilized manner...something you seem incapable of.

I think that was obvious from the many opinions that were presented on the
net. I don't think brown-nosing is going to make anyone feel better or get you
any extra-credit points. Besides, I thought you wanted to hear opinions for
all sides. I guess you only want to hear it, if they agree with you. I agree
some of the posting were strictly to rile up the masses, but those are 
obvious don't you think?


Rakesh Patel
 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian