Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The delusional nature of sincere belief.
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:54:54 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <adams.725657689@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:

>The doctrinal answer is, of course, that you weren't really saved.  How
>does one know?  There should be life-changing experiences...you should live
>your life as close to that of Christ as humanly possible.

So how _does_ one know?  For most of my teenage and college years, I tried
to trust God as the author of my salvation.  I did what I thought was
necessary to be a Christian, and then some.  I had the experiences that
people talk about, the feelings, the gnosis.  For a time, I was even
a lay minister of the Methodist church, a camp counselor at a Christian
camp, and a guest speaker at a few small local churches.  I studied
the Scripture daily, I prayed to God fervently.  My point, my friend,
is that if I did all these things and truly believed that I was
saved, but I wasn't "really saved," how does anyone else know that they
are "really saved?"

>Any person can come to the word and later reject it.  I don't have a
>problem with that...I don't hold 'once saved, always saved' as a doctrine
>myself, because I see evidence that contradicts it.  

It does seem to be lacking, doesn't it?

The only question that raises is, how do you become "unsaved?"  Is telling
a lie sufficient, or does it take mass murder?

>I can't explain your situation without knowing *why* you rejected the
>teachings of the Bible...and as for worshiping Satan...you seem to be 
>accepting the Christian doctrine on evil & its personification, why not 
>the doctrine on good and its personification?

Let me explain myself: I do not worship Satan.  I do not accept the Christian
doctrine on evil.  I suspect some truth in the Genesis myths.  Specifically
here, I believe that the being that the Christians call Satan is responsible
for man's free-will and self-awareness (represented in the Christian Bible
as the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.")  I further believe
that - no offense intended here - the standard Christian belief system
is, for the most part, unacceptable and repulsive.  Your Jesus had some
wonderful things to say on love and kindness...a bit extreme in some places,
I think, but wonderful ideals.  Even Paul of Tarsus had a few points
in his favor, but for the most part I consider many of his views legalistic
and reprehensible.

>In fact, I'm convinced I deserve hell, and if God judges that's where I
>belong, that is within his will, and I can't argue.  On the other hand, if,
>as promised by the scripture, I do gain heaven, then so be it.

Some older theologian - I don't remember who right now - said the same
thing, didn't he?  "If it be God's will that I suffer the eternal
torments of hell, I shall go gladly?" (loose paraphrase)

That's a more honest view than the usual smug Christian, "I'm going to
heaven and you're not, so there!"  I can respect that view, although
I disagree with it strongly.  It tends to put God in the role of
a mostly arbitrary, but really really strong, bully.  You say that
you "can't argue."  Hey, if you're right, I plan to anyhow.  It may
not do me any good at that point, but... ;-)

>Clearly I know which I prefer...but I also know which I deserve.

Why do you believe you "deserve" it?



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