HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:17:50 GMT

#In article <37348@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> cote@cs.ucsd.edu (Brad Cote) writes:
#>lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer) writes:
#>
#>>For example, Bush gave a speech in which he mentioned a
#>>slippery road.  Clinton's father died in a car accident and
#>>Gore's son was injured in a car acident.  Clinton is tough,
#>>but deep inside there must be a person who hurts from
#>>such a comment.
#>
#>I think you've been in academia for a bit too long, Linda. Either
#>that or you are a literature major. Without meaning to get
#>into politics, I don't think there was any double meaning to
#>Bush's "slippery road" comment. I also doubt that Clinton
#>thought anything of it. It is, after all, a common euphemism.


Sorry, I should have mentioned that this interpretation came
from the NY Times.  
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: wskelly@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (William Skelly)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Organization: Macquarie University, Australia.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:54:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.235253.15424@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> manuel@space.ualberta.ca  (John Manuel) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.164417@IASTATE.EDU> btd@IASTATE.EDU (Benjamin T Dehner)  
>writes:
>> I think there is enough facts here
>> to give Fabrikant the benefit of the doubt, instead of dismissing him as a 
>> madman with a gun.
>
>I'd say that what he did with his gun clearly makes him some sort of madman:  

Very little is known about the human mind.  Using the term "madman"
is about as appropriate as labeling people with disabilities as
"retards or imbiciles."  It is just plain ignorant.

My own appologies for the "happy go luckey" type of post that I too
recently sent to this group prior to this dreadful turn of events.
For the present perhaps a respectful minute of reflection on the 
tragedy is in order before we try and disect the events as we came
to know them.


Chris

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: waleed@gandalf.colorado.edu (Waleed Abdalati)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Organization: Colorado Center for Astrodynamics Research
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:37:25 GMT

that should be spread the word, not work.  (that was the problem
in the first place).
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: The Fabrikant affair - any news?
Followup-To: sci.research.careers
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:48:19 GMT

In article <37305@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> acohen@cs.ucsd.edu (Ariel Cohen) writes:

      I find the Fabrikant affair very intriguing; it's almost like
   real-life Dostoyevsky.

      I wonder, does Fabrikant have a family? Could someone tell us 
   what the local papers are saying? It would be nice if someone who
   follows the investigation in Montreal would post a summary of the 
   developments and what the press reveals. Or am I the only curious 
   soul?


Here's from news I received from my mother in Montreal:

------- Forwarded Message

To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Concordia


	Arrested Valery Fabrikant, 52 an associate prof in Concordia
	engineering and cs dept. He came to Canada 14 years ago from
	Moscow. His career at Concordia was marked by one of the best
	teaching records in the university but was told yesterday that
	he would not be granted tenure.

	BTW, He has a wife and 2 kids and lives in CSL. [Cote-St-Luc,
	an affluent, Montreal urban suburb, a block from where I grew
	up.  --SMC]

	mom

------- End of Forwarded Message

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: rob@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Robert Robson)
Subject: Concordia shootings
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:54:56 GMT

The tragic events in Montreal point to the incredible pressure
many academics are under.  Fabrikant made many accusations, which
unprovable, remind us of things we all have witnessed.  As a
result, I believe that at least some of his accusations are true.

While I do not believe Fabrikant was in his right mind, he might
never have gone over the edge without the treatment he received.
Rather than just writing him off as "another nut" the academic
community should take the opportunity to examine its practices.
Perhaps some good could come of this so that Fabrikant's victims
will not have died in vain.

The media has compared this case to the last shooting in Montreal
of the women at Ecole Polytechnique.  This bothers me, since this
was a (temporarily?) insane disgruntled employee rather than just
someone with a desire to kill women.  I think comparisons with
other disgruntled employees who have gone gunning for
bosses/co-workers would be more apt.  All of us would like to
know the true story and this would be a great opportunity for
some investigative journalism.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
From: wcsjc@alfred.carleton.ca (John Coughlin)
Subject: Re: Illuminating Fabricant quotation
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:28:46 GMT

In <Btp6IA.D0p@math.uwaterloo.ca> mskucher@math.uwaterloo.ca (Murray S. Kucherawy [MFCF]) writes:

>If you read through his other letters, you'll notice he doesn't have a
>complete mastery of our language.  Perhaps in saying those things, he
>didn't *intend* to provide any foreshadowing, and so I doubt that we
>should interpret it as such.

What struck me is his poor command of English after having lived in Canada
for a dozen years or so.  Perhaps the delay in granting of tenure is related
to this.  I mean, no matter how brilliant his research papers may be, if they
must be edited by a grammarian every time, it would be a bit embarrassing for
Concordia, don't you think ?
-- 
Flesh: John Coughlin                            Elvis ate my Cadillac
Net: wcsjc@ccs.carleton.ca     Vox: +1 613 957-2851     Fax: 990-7370
From: adam@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Adam Steele)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabricant Concordia killings
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:17:09 GMT
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

Hi Everyone,

This a tragic story,and very painful for me because I knew nearly
all of the actual and intended victims.  At the risk of filling
bandwidth I think there should be some balance brought to this
story, and also some of the issues it raises are interesting in a
more general context.

The killings at Concordia were particularly senseless in that the
victims were not the people with whom Dr. Fabrikant had his grievances.  
The first killed, Dr. Michael Hogben was head of the faculty
association representing Dr. Fabrikant, Dr. Saber's office was
across the hall from where Dr. F. had been meeting with Hogben.
Dr. Douglass was killed in a conference room down the hall from
the office of Dean Swamy.

As far as I understand them, these are some of the issues.

Dr. F. had been a research associate for about 10 years in a
non-tenure track position at Concordia.  Part of what he wanted
was to have Swamy's name removed from his publications.  Dr. F.
had been paid with money from Dr. Swamy's research grants.  This
seems to be standard practice as far as I understand, and
reflects the grant getting effort, and the sacrifices of
administration (although it seems to me an interesting issue to
discuss how tenuous a connection with a work requires acknowledgement).

One of the stories mentioned in his copious emails was of
students working without recognition on a research project.
While I have heard some real horror stories from my friends at
other universities, when the student in question was interviewed
he said he had had no problem getting credit for his work.

As I said above, Dr. F. was in a non-tenure track position, and
there are different stories going around as to whether Dr. F. was
about to be granted or refused tenure.  He was clearly a credible
researcher, but he had difficulties getting along with people (he
dismissed at least two of his lawyers because they did not share
his "ideology").  How much should this affect whether a professor
gets tenure?

I don't want to sound like an apologist for Concordia - or academia
in general, but in my opinion Dr. F. was a paranoid crank, who
unfortunately was able to get his hands (quite legally) on a gun,
with terrible consequences.

My heartfelt condolences go out to the families of the victims,
and my thoughts are with Dr. Ziogas as he battles for his life.

Adam

P.S. I am a doctoral student in Computer Science at Concordia,
and other than by aquaintance, unconnected with the players in
this tragedy.

--
~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~
Adam Steele                                  "... And there is no safeword for
adam@cs.concordia.ca         (Internet)       Doctoral Students."
adam@denovo.lacage1.ntn      (Trivianet)        - Matthew Harelick on a.s.b
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gat@forsight.jpl.nasa.gov (Erann Gat)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:06:04 GMT

In article <disaacs.714756296@cunews> disaacs@martha.carleton.ca (Dave Isaacs) writes:
>This is from the Montreal Gazette, 25-August-1992

[Much deleted]

>    But Judd said the case took a new turn last week when Swamy and Sankar 
>decided last week to file charges of contempt of court against Fabrikant.
>
>The charges were based on a number of electronic on a number of Fabrikant's
>electronic mail messages.

I find this very puzzling.  On what basis did they charge him with
contempt?  Was there a court order enjoining him from posting his
letters to the net?

E.

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: clewis@bwdlh118.bnr.ca (Chris Lewis)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Organization: Bell Northern Research
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:02:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.175452.15258@linus.mitre.org> crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:
 
>The charges certainly contributed to his state of mind.  I have to
>believe that Fabricant's attorney will attempt to validate them, at
>least to mitigate the act as Fabrikant's reaction to an impossible 
>situation, thereby reducing his sentence.

>Ironically, had Fabricant acted less irrationally and killed only 
>the head of the department, he probably would be sentenced to only a 
>short term in prison as a first time offender and for having _some_ 
>just cause for his actions.   As it is, I think he will be treated 
>as a madman and locked away for a long time.

This is pure speculation.  He hasn't even appeared in court yet, let
alone be sentenced.

If we leave aside the question of sanity for the moment, it is clear
that the situation, regardless of who he killed, was premeditated and
is likely to fulfill the requirements for charges of first degree murder.
Which usually carries a minimum 25 year sentence.  The differentiation
between 1st and 2nd would merely be on how long that premeditation
was.  Ie: was the intent formed on Monday or before?  I'm not going
to speculate on that, other than to suggest that "first time offender"
generally don't mean diddly squat with 1st or 2nd degree murder, and
that Fabrikant's conflict with the department was a serious one
long before the murders.

In fact, history here seems to indicate that people found not guilty
by reason of insanity in similar cases get out *earlier* than non-insane
people.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,can.general
From: dalton@epoch.Geop.UBC.CA (David Dalton)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant: keeping a moral perspective.
Organization: Dept. of Geophysics & Astronomy, UBC, Vancouver, Canada
	<CLAMEN.92Aug26213448@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>
	<1992Aug27.141102.8634@sco.COM>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:42:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.141102.8634@sco.COM> waseems@sco.COM (Waseem Siddiqi) writes:

   Xref: unixg.ubc.ca sci.research.careers:829 can.general:8593
Path: unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!destroyer!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!utgpu!attcan!ncrcan!scocan!waseems
   From: waseems@sco.COM (Waseem Siddiqi)
   Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,can.general
   Date: 27 Aug 92 14:11:02 GMT
   References: <1992Aug27.000425.22037@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> <CLAMEN.92Aug26213448@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>
   Sender: news@sco.COM (News administration)
   Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.
   Lines: 12


   Could someone post the articles written by Fabrikant on the net ? I don't
   receive the newsgroup where he posted these articles.


   regards
   waseem
   -- 
   Waseem A. Siddiqi                                 Tel:    (416) 922 1937 
   SCO Canada                                        email: waseems@sco.com 
   Toronto, Canada                                        uunet!sco!waseems
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a recent mention of an FTP site in sci.research.

Newsgroups: sci.research,sci.research.careers
From: chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan)
Subject: Re: IS there an archive of this newsgroup ?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:28:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.210738.29809@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:

>Is there an archive of this newsgroup somewhere, so that people
>can FTP or use a mail-server to retrive older postings ? I am
>getting  messages from various people who want copies of the Fabrikant
>postings or other postings I made for all sort of purposes. It would
>be nice if everybody could pick it from a central place.

I don't know about an archive for the group, but I've collected his
letters, Part I - XIII, which you posted on the group, into a single
file which may be pickep by anonymous ftp from

davros.acs.ohio-state.edu

in

pub/fabrikant.txt

You may direct anyone requesting copies to pick it up from there...

-h

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:53:30 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster


Before I write my comments I should state that I do not know
anyone at Concordia University and nothing I am going to say
is descriptive of anyone there.  But after reading the items
which have been posted to this newsgroup, there is much to discuss
and to learn in terms of how people can constructively deal with
situations when they experience bad treatment or dishonesty in
a university or other work place.  

I think it's unfair to simply dismiss Fabrikant as a madman.
While I don't know the specifics of the Concordia case, I will
say in general that there are people who provoke others in order
to make the other guy come out looking like the bad guy.  For
us reading all of these items, we have to develop techniques
for ourselves to maintain peace of mind when we are provoked by
people in power or people who want to compete against us.
Unfortunately the higher one goes professionally, one sees and
experiences both people who got there by honest means and people
who got there by cutthroat means.  In any institution there
are always people who are too competitive and who are instigators.
For example, several years ago a student told me a partially false
piece of information about a professor and very gently tried to
incite me to distribute leaflets against him, though, of course, she
had no intention of doing this herself.  I don't know why she
thought I wouldn't see through her scheme.  People will apply all
sorts of social and psycholgical pressures in order to instigate
their competitors.  One possible subject for discussion in
this newsgroup is how to maintain our peace of mind and
centeredness at times when colleageus attempt to harm us
professionally and isolate us.  

Obviously, therapy is one answer, altough it is often unavailable
to graduate students because of the high cost.  Not becoming
isolated is another answer.  Working off stress with athletics is
another.  What do others suggest?
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: manuel@space.ualberta.ca  (John Manuel)
Subject: Re: Two die, three hurt in university rampage - Montreal Gazette
Reply-To: manuel@space.ualberta.ca  (John Manuel)
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:52:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.164417@IASTATE.EDU> btd@IASTATE.EDU (Benjamin T Dehner)  
writes:
> I think there is enough facts here
> to give Fabrikant the benefit of the doubt, instead of dismissing him as a 
> madman with a gun.

I'd say that what he did with his gun clearly makes him some sort of madman:  
what kind of "doubt" could possible justify his actions?

--
John R. Manuel                 Department of Physics, University of Alberta
manuel@space.ualberta.ca                 Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA, T6G 2J1
Office: (403) 492-2526          (NeXTMail OK)           Fax: (403) 492-0714
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.14 $
Organization: wherever it's like, at.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:02:15 +0000


In article <disaacs.714839851@cunews> disaacs@pietrzak.carleton.ca (Dave Isaacs) writes:

> 
> 
> What I don't think anybody (well the media anyways) realizes is that the
> postings were distributed internationally, and not just to directly named
> individuals.
> 


Well, I wrote it up for tomorrow (Saturday's) paper, so kthey will know then,
if not before...



-------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Brown                    | email abrown@cix.compulink.co.uk|
Religious Affairs Correspondent | phone +44-71-253-1222 xt 1682   |
The Independent                 |---------------------------------|
London, England                 | I'm not paid to have opinions   |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lharris@upei.ca (Lora Harris)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Organization: University of Prince Edward Island
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:35:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.191013.17993@relay.nswc.navy.mil> bwallet@apssgi.nswc.navy.mil (Brad Wallet) writes:
>|> Interesting that you chose to print both sides of the story.  
Commendable.>|> However, in posting confidential memos and documentation, 
dod you>|> unknowingly open yourself to a lawsuit yourself?

>Sued for helping someone execise freedom of speech?  How American.
>God bless America, land of lawyers!
>-------------------------------------------------
>Brad Wallet                 Mathematician

	Just two points, Brad -
1) Doesn't the USA have laws against libel, and laws against the invasion of 
privacy involved in publishing confidential information?  For instance, if a 
US doctor were to publish a list of names of those who had been treated by 
him for venereal diseases, wouldn't he get sued?

2) How on earth can the comment "How American" apply to an incident in 
Canada?  We most obviously aren't American.  Neither is our legal system.  
Concordia is in Canada, in the province of Quebec.

L. Harris (aka Zant)
Charlottetown, PEI
Canada.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 02:35:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.211931.12120@reed.edu> orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne) writes:
>The events that have unfolded before us are stunning, and I would prefer to
>get over the ersatz trauma of having followed the thread to it's horrible
>conclusion, but I feel compelled to ask: Do the police have copies of his
>recent posts here? I mean, are we sure that they've been handed over?

Yes.  They went through some VAX VMS system in between - a printout
was shown on the news, and I could make out SOME header information.
Presumably somebody at the computing centre at Concordia passed it on.

>Bizarre. News is an abstract involvement in an untangible world, an almost
>prosthetic existence with little or no impact on physical reality. To have
>seen the posts the Fabrikant made before us all, followed by such physical
>and evil acts, is really disturbing. 

Definitely a shock.

>I sided with him, totally. I believed his evidence. Now that I hear what
>he's done... Should we have done something right away, like notifying some
>authority, after seeing the parts of the posts where he talks about fearing
>for his life and being willing to die? I'd really like to get my mind off
>the subject, but it's a sticky one.

Even after hearing the news of the shootings, I tend to believe that
the information that he posted is _in part_ correct.  I doubt that he
could make up the letters by faculty without the whole train of
evidence getting terribly convoluted/internally contradictory.  I
wouldn't be surprised if the chain of letters were actually sent by
the various parties.  The conclusions that he reaches are certainly
questionable.



-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Please distribute Fabrikant subject into appropriate news groups
Followup-To: soc.culture.canada
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 17:44:27 GMT

While the Fabrikant subject is an interesting one, this group has been set
up for "the discussion of careers in scientific resarch."

STOP!
Take a moment, edit your Subject-lines, your Newsgroups: fields, and Follow-up
lines.

If you want to ask for expertise about Fabrikant's sanity, please ask in
sci.psychology.
Cross post the Newsgroups: to sci.psychology,sci.research.careers (no space
after comma), and Followup-To: sci.psychology (without the research.careers
since that is not necessary a career question).

Why don't we take the events of the case to soc.culture.canada?
The legal questions can be taken to misc.legal.  Those specific issues
dealing Fabrikant and his CAREER belong in this group.  This way the readers
of this group don't need to concern themselves with murder events, and
can concentrate on career issues.  We create different groups for a purpose,
and "experts" congregate in those groups and you can typically get far
better discussion in those specialties.

Academic?  Make sense?  Got that?  Great.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andrew@Theory.Stanford.EDU (Andrew Ku)
Subject: Re: Frabrikant-like stories
Originator: andrew@chemeng.Stanford.EDU
Keywords: Fabrikant, novels
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 05:26:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.044118.1922@m.cs.uiuc.edu> watanabe@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
>There was a rather good novel last year, entitled 
>"The Goldberg Variations", about a genetics researcher.
>I think it made the New York Times best-seller's list.

It's THE GOLD BUG VARIATIONS by Richard Powers (pub: W. Morrow, c1991).

[sorry if this is getting off topic, but I thought it might make it easier
 if someone was interested in tracking down the book.]