From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Calling a spade a spade
Date: 2 Jan 93 07:51:55 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.croatia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

>[this posting is a late reply to a now expired posting]

>> From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
>> Subject: Re: Who are the "warring parties"? (was Croatian dreams)
>> Message-ID: <Dec.13.01.43.35.1992.2202@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
>> Date: 13 Dec 92 06:43:37 GMT

>> I also think that the extremist nationalistic elements on the part of
>> the Croatian and Bosnian governments pushed as hard toward the war
>> path hoping either that the "others" wouldn't really go to the ultimate
>> destruction or that what they (Croatian or Bosnia and Herzegovina governments)
>> were doing will be overshadowed by the more fierce deeds of the "others" 
>> (which is now the case). Here I am referring to various descriptions of 
>> atrocities and other mistreatments and maltreatments of the Serbian population
>> in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Especially in the areas outside the 
>> immediate Krajina region and at the time prior to the war. 

>If one's knowledge is based purely on the official Serbian media (mis-)
>representation of the treatment of Serbs outside Serbia, then I can 
>understand one writing this.  The word 'atrocities' seems especially misused
>here.  It seems to me that either you have swallowed the big Serbian lie, or
>you base all your opinions on "everyone is to blame" which usually tends to
>"everyone is thus almost equally responsible".  

Joe, first, I don't read/watch the official Serbian media AT ALL -
except VREME which you can hardly count into that category.
Second, you cannot deny that there had been atrocities beyond
the scope of "pure" defense commited on Serbian population (civilians)
on the part of Croatian and B-H official armies and para-military
troups, as well as irregular bands. These have been reported
by INTERNATIONAL media, and you know well which they are.
Third, I have "swallowed" neither the big Serbian lie, nor the
other big lies.
Forth, there is a big step between "everyone is to blame" and
"everyone is thus almost equally responsible". YES, EVERYONE
WITHIN THE LEADERSHIPS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES OF FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
IS TO BLAME. How much? What for? Well each one individual and
official structure, for what they have exactly done. Not more,
and not less. That would be only just, wouldn't it?

>> Herzegovina. And Croatian and Slovenian leaders also only had
>> "added oil in the fire" using the Kosovo conflict to on one hand
>> support the most extreme secessionist Albanian leaders, and on the
>> other to prepare their own populations for the hatred, satanization
>> and demonization of all Serbs.

>It is absurd that you blame Croatia and Slovenia for what is happening
>in Kosovo.  Do you blame the Western World (countries, intn'l organizations)
>for criticizing the treatment of Albanians by Serbian authorities there (i.e.
>'for demonization of all Serbs') ?

Again:
First, I am not blaming CROATIA AND SLOVENIA, but Croatian and Slovenian
leadership.

Second, I am not even "blaming" but just laying out the irrefutable facts.
(Take the official press releases from: Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and
Kosovo for years 1980-1987 and after 1987, and tell me whether you can
or cannot conclude that
"Croatian and Slovenian *leaders* had used the Kosovo conflict to,
 on one hand, support the most extreme secessionist Albanian leaders, 

and 

on the other hand, to prepare their own populations for hatred, satanization
and demonization of all Serbs. (analyze the style of writing up the news).
(here I'll also add, that the Serbian leadership equally used the said
political events occuring in Kosovo prior to Milosevic and even more
after he came to power, to equaly satanize and demonize Croatians and
Slovenians and Albanians).

>Why do you have trouble calling a spade a spade Ana?

The problem, Joe isn't that *I* can't call a spade a spade, but that
*YOU* have a blind spot when it comes to Croatian leadership. One would
think that, gee, these guys cannot make a mistake ever, reading only
what you write. I don't see why do you have to defend them (Croatian
leadership) when they certainly are no flowers.

I have said somewhere before that in social affairs, the mathematical
logic doesn't apply: If one side (Serbian leadership and army) are
evil criminals (which they are), it simply doesn't follow, that
AUTOMATICALLY, the other side (Croatian leadership, B-H Leadership and
respective military forces) MUST BE GOOD.

Can't you see that this is a war between several mafia-like
organizations, which have each taken power in their little
neighborhoods, and are quarelling about bordering territory? All the
while waving national flags, fooling a lot of honest people to support
their side with money (What do you think this war costs in $$?), words,
work, blood and lives. 


>Regards,

>Joe Blazic

Regards, 

Ana M. Shane