From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: Libertarian heaven
Summary: Invalid arguments
Keywords: Who sez liberty has to be fem??
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:46:46 GMT

In article <7JAN199322151858@utarlg.uta.edu>, b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (General Libertrix) writes:
> Can't speak for the libertarians, who are a typically idealistic and
> rabidly rigid form of anarchist. But as just a plain old anarchist, 
> I think you're a little off, marc. 
> 
> In article <1993Jan7.182028.29969@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, 
> colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes...
> 
> >As for the "too many governments" idea of Somalia, I think you're
> >twisting the facts around.  The "warlords" of Somalia are nothing
> >like the governments that Libertarians are constantly arguing
> >against. They were not chosen by some of the people with authority
> >over all of them. They are truly the Libertarian ideal.  They 
> >have used their money to buy weapons to be totally independent
> >of any law or society. 
> 
> Which is like saying that the elitists in the US congress are true
> democrats. Try looking at all of the society.
> 

The elitists in the US Congress were elected by their consituents.
True many of them are jugheads, but at least they were elected 
and when they lose - they are out.  Who elected the warlords?

> >Yes, they are violating the rule you
> >think Libertarians should obey, to not take advantage of other
> >people, but that is your mistake not theirs.  By what logic
> >do you think that in the absence of a central government, people
> >will naturally respect each other?
> 
> The US central government seems pretty disrespectful of people
> to me. Ditto for the CommuKapitalist Chinese.
> 

That is true, but we can vote them out.  Who votes out the
warlords?

> >In any society you will have good people and bad people.  
> 
> True even for one without goverments. 
> 

True.

> >A government with police powers may not be perfect but they make
> >an attempt to control the bad people.  
> 
> Can you make this statement in terms of a dictatorship?
> 

Sure, a dictatorship is the bad people in charge and running
roughshod over everyone else.  You also can't vote them out.

> >In a Libertarian society
> >the good people will use their money to build up their businesses
> >and compete with other good people.  The bad people will buy guns
> >and take things from the good people.  
> 
> Really, let's try it and find out. Not that I'd want Libertarian
> societies running amok either.

How will you prevent it?  What are the checks and balances?  I've
seen none that make any sense in any Libertarian posting.  The
only thing I've seen is "It won't happen that way?"

> 
> >The good people will
> >eventually have to buy guns to protect themselves, draining money
> >from their enterprises. The bad people will have no such burden.
> 
> Chemistry is easier and cheaper than guns.
> 

Okay you got me there.  I haven't any idea what you are trying to
say.  Can you clarify this?  The only thing I can get out of
"Chemistry is easier and cheaper than guns" is you are suggesting
using chemical weapons on bad people? Is that your idea?  If so
let me point out that Nazi Germany and Suddam's Iraq show that
it is the bad guys who will do that first.

> >I think that in an evolutionary sense - the bad people would always
> >win such a fight, or convert the good people to their idea. 
> 
> No faith in GOD, eh. Or even in aliens. Or even in evolution.
> 

No, only faith in pure power.  The bad people will show the good
people that they are chumps to work so someone who spent all his
cash on guns can take it away.  So they will spend all their
money on guns and take it back.  Not much productivity there.

> >The solutions to a problem like Somalia are varied.  You could
> >institute a government with police powers and make it against
> >the law to terrorize other people. Or you could tell every
> >Somali that they have the same right to have weapons - which
> >right now they can't afford.  You could hand out weapons and
> >ammo to poor, starving, frightened individuals and hope this
> >helps them against well organized groups of highly motivated
> >thugs, but I don't think they would have much of a chance.
> 
> 12 & 14 year old (agewise) "organized groups of highly motivated thugs."
> 

What has their age got to do with it.  A 12 year old with a gun
can kill you just as easily as an adult.

> >Each person would minimize their own risk and let their neighbor
> >take the chances.  Ironically, the good leaders would be all
> >on the other side.  If a strong leader came up to unite the
> >people, he'd have to be a saint not to set up his own kingdom
> >once hundreds of armed people were obeying his every command.
> 
> You've got a knack for expressing strong opinions marc. You 
> might want to back 'em up a little, please.

Okay, try this - in the recent election, Marrou got 300,000 votes.
He complained afterward that he could have done better but ran
out of money.  The dems and repubs ran $1000 a plate dinners and
packed them in.  The Libertarians ran a $100 dinner and no one
showed up.  Libertarians will sit back and let other people do
the work and take the risks.  In a dangerous situation like
Somalia, give everyone a gun and the warlords will make the
first move while most people sit at home and hope their neighbors
get killed instead of them. There is no motivation to take risks.
Your only motive is to stay alive and you accomplish that by
staying home, not by risking your life opposing the warlords.


> 
> >Somalia may not be what the Libertarians think would happen,
> >but it is a very clear example of what keeps happening.
> > 
> >marc colten
> 
> And if everyone would leave the country alone, the libertarian
> solution of auto-genocide might solve the problem forever. Maybe.
> Then again GOD might step in. Guess we'll never know. As long as
> the american elites want to play GOD that is.
> 

If you are depending on God to save anyone - he hasn't yet.  I'm
Jewish and he let 6,000,000 of us die.  Don't hold your breath.
And if you are hoping that genocide solves the problem, you
are mighty sick.

marc colten

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