HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Life's too short. Was: 1930s Science Fiction
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:00:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Keywords: LIFE IS TOO SHORT

fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis):
>I've tried for almost 12 seconds to come up with a broader umbrella for
>science fiction than man's relationship to science and can't. 

I'll take a stab at this -- though I have no reason to suppose I'll
be any more successful than Tom.  It's difficult, for much the same
reasons it would be difficult to answer someone who's read half a
dozen novels and insists that all fiction is about interpersonal
conflict.  The uninteresting truth is that most fiction has elements
which pertain, or can be interpreted as pertaining to interpersonal
conflict, but that's hardly the same thing.

I could list off many classics of science fiction which are not, in any
interesting way, about man's relationship to science, but what would that
prove to Jeff, who hasn't read them?  

Yes, there are books about the effects of capital-s-Science.  And there
are books that presume some specific scientific advances, but aren't
*about* those advances.  There are books whose link to science is
that a generally prevailing belief (eg, dinosaurs were unintelligent,
telepathy is impossible) is posited to be incorrect.  And there are
books in which historical events are posited to have turned out differently.
There are books in which scientific gadgetry (eg, time travel, spaceships)
exists only to allow the author to explore a philosophical point, such as
the nature of causality or of intelligence.

I'd say the key word in the previous paragraph was not science, but 
'posited'.  Science fiction is fiction in which (subject to certain
flexible rules) things are posited to be different than we generally
believe them to be in the 'real' world.  Sometimes the differences
pertain to science and sometimes they don't.  Sometimes the differences
are the focus of the story and sometimes they're just props.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
From: rsdean@apgea.army.mil (Robert S. Dean <rsdean>)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Bookstores in New York City (NYC) List (rec.arts.books)
Summary: Address for Military Bookman
Keywords: monthly
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:11:27 GMT
Organization: ATE1 S7=255 S11=55 V1 X1 S0=0

>The Military Bookman (94th east of Central Park)
>	Specializing in used military books.  Their selection is
>	excellent, but they are usually a bit pricey.  It's the
>	sort of place that military buffs all know about, but
>	call only as a last resort.  They issue a catalog (about
>	3 times a year), and otherwise engage in mail order.
>	No credit card/phone orders.

The address is 29 East 93rd Street, and it came to my attention when they
contacted me recently regarding a book that I had told them I was looking
for at least three years ago...so give them another plus for keeping track
of these things.  Phone number is (212) 348-1280.

Rob Dean
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Sea stories
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:52:22 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

I think most of the postings in this thread have tended towards The Romance
of Sail.  For something thoroughly unromantic about iron, coal and steam,
try B. Traven's "The Death Ship"... what he describes there (worn-out ships
being sailed just so they can sink for the insurance money) is still going
on, too.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Worthwhile newspapers (WAS Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:56:41 GMT

Joel J. Hanes writes:

	Here in the Bay Area, I read the San Francisco Chronicle
	every day, supplemented with the San Jose Mercury News on the
	weekends (mostly for their Perspectives opinion section and
	for the Classifieds), and I still feel hungry, particularly
	for longer articles with detail and understanding.
	Neither paper runs much US news, and world news coverage
	is even more cursory.

I read the Chron only for my daily ration of Herb Caen; nothing else. 
If I wanted to buy or sell something, I guess I'd use the Merc.

	What newspapers are read by members of the r.a.b.ble, and
	what are their strong and weak points?

Many years Down South endeared me to the Los Angeles Times, and I still read it.
A well-balanced, general-purpose newspaper with some great writers. Personally,
I find their Foreign Correspondents better informed than the NYT. Still in the 
same family after many, many years, and it shews. No upstart Oztralian owner
here.

						Fido
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:19:04 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <14706@mindlink.bc.ca>, Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
> The Economist, whatever its politics (and I find its confident tone sometimes
> absurd), has aimed for a market of educated, literate readers who want
> information rather than glitzy layouts and color photographs. While it's
> expensive compared to the US and Canadian newsweeklies, on a per-fact basis
> it's the best bargain around.

I would be more impressed with the _The Economist_ if they got the
facts right.  Their coverage of Florida's 1987 revisions to the
concealed weapon statute were severely in error (at least, if you
bother to read the statute).  On the plus side, while they reported
it wrong, they at least reported the change.  None of the U.S.
newsweeklies covered this rather dramatic change.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steven M Casburn)
Subject: Re: Why I've stopped reading The New Republic
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:34:56 GMT

Mike Siemon writes:
    However, like the other American rags, _The Nation_ has the utterly
    infuriating tendency to regard all positions but their own as too
    vile and worthless to even consider -- the mere mouthings of idiots.

Mike Godwin replies:
    One exception to this generally correct generalization: THE NEW REPUBLIC.

Oh, wow. I've got to disagree strongly on this one. I've subscribed to TNR for
two years and, though it is true that the editors do bring a slight variety of
opinion, it isn't nearly as diverse as they try to make it seem.

The biggest case in point is TNR's Middle Eastern coverage. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but has TNR ever run an article even *mildly* critical of Israel's
policy in the West Bank? I have a hard time stomaching the endless pro-Israel
bias. It truly is annoying.

On the other hand, Mike Kinsley usually does a great job in bringing logic to
bear on arguments he disagrees with. So, no, TNR isn't all bad. But I wouldn't
extol it as a model for others to follow, either. I'll be letting my 
subscription run out in October so I can afford to re-subscribe to The 
Economist.

                         Steve (scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
-- 
     Steve Casburn (scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
     *The* Ohio State University
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15194 rec.humor:27236 alt.folklore.urban:22308
From: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us (S. Mudgett aka little gator)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: butter flavored Crisco
Summary: The common room votes to clean the ashtrays
Keywords: stupid, dumb, moronic, sophomoric, not funny
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:44:58 GMT
	<aqV6PB1w165w@comtch.spk.wa.us>
	<1992Aug28.025312.6278@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us
Organization: gators 'r us
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.03 Rev. Apr 14 1992


>>> I once had a girlfriend who liked to bring the dog, the cat, about two
>>> yards of nylon webbing, several pairs of handcuffs, and a large tin of
>>> buttered flavored Crisco to bed ...  oops >Sorry>Wrong newsgroup>Carry on
>
>This entire discussion should be removed from rec.arts.books and posted 
>to rec.food.veg.

or possibly alt.sex.reptiles.lard-n-sugar.

-- 
-- little gator aka s. mudgett     email: scm@harvee.billerica.ma.us
-- friend of a gator is a friend of mine
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:52:36 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep1.050401.1670@morrow.stanford.edu>, francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
> Clayton Cramer writes:
> 
> 	Francis Muir writes:
> 
> 		As for the Economist, it should be pointed out that 
> 		while they are conservative, they are not Conservative. 
> 
> 	And even by the current definition of "conservative" in America,
> 	they aren't conservative.  Note their oft-expressed feelings about
> 	gun prohibitionism.
> 
> The Economist does not operate under American definitions, it is a
> British institution. In Great Britain there is nothing conservative about

Completely agreed.

> a pro-gun position. There has never been a time in british history when

It was always a Whig position.  Read some Sydney Harrington.

> owning weapons has been anything but the prerogative of the Armed Forces.
> The sole exception has always been hunting weapons. 
> 
> 						Fido

Utterly false.  Until the Pistols Act of 1920, gun ownership was
nearly unregulated in Britain.  Until the 1870s, there was not
even a licensing requirement for carrying concealed handguns in
Britain.

Oh yes, the Bill of Rights of 1689 (statutory in nature, and
therefore overriden by later laws):

              7. That  the subjects  which are  protestants, may have
              arms for  their defence  suitable to  their conditions,
              and as allowed by law.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brien vs Horatio Hornblower...
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:57:12 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Aug25.232006.21407@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>John Nall writes:

>	Well.....I was sadly disappointed ...
>	I thought that the O'Brien books were not even in the same
>	ballback as the Hornblower series with regard to fast-moving action,
>	vivid descriptions of life at sea, etc., etc.

>I'm glad you told me.  I too was (am) a Hornblower fan and have given
>serious though to rereading the series.  When someone first posted about
>O'Brien I put him on my to-read list.  When a couple of other people 
>posted that he wasn`t up to Forester, I moved him down a notch.

They're different, but it's possible to like both.  But then
I think some of the Hornblower books are a bit tedious, so maybe
you don't want to listen to me.  On the other hand, I liked
some Hornblower a lot and tried O'Brien because of what people
had said in rec.arts.books.  That was a few months ago.  I 
didn't like the first one I read (Post Captain) all that much,
but I still felt like reading another.  I've since read 14 or
so (which I think is all of them).

(I think more of Post Captain now, BTW.)

I also re-read Commodore Hornblower just before I started reading
O'Brien, and I reject completely the claim that O'Brien isn't
even in the same ballpark.  If I'd been comparing more fdistant
memories of Forrester with O'Brien, I might have though differently.

Anyway, I strongly suggest you read a couple of the O'Brien books,
because there's a fair chance you'll like them a lot.  I'd suggest
that H.M.S. Surprise be one of them.  I'd also suggest that Reverse
of the Medal and Letter of Marque (and one other that's strongly
connexted with those two) not be among them.  Read them if you
find you like O'Brien, but I don't think they show him at his best.

-- jd
From: Paul Schroeder
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brien vs Horatio Hornblower...
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:08:52 GMT
Organization: BNR

In article <25322@castle.ed.ac.uk> pws@castle.ed.ac.uk (P W Stephenson) writes:
>Paul Schroeder writes:
>
>>First, IMHO a comparison between O'Brian and Forester is not appropriate. 
>
>I don't think they're quite in the same game, either.  One point which
>hasn't been made yet, which I think is instructive even if it's not true
>(:-) is that Forester was a modern novelist whereas O'Brian is a
>historical novelist: by which I really mean Forester wrote more from a
>present-day point of view while O'Brian writes as if he was a
>contemporary of his characters.  (Insert `in a sense' into the last
>sentence as many times as necessary.)  This perhaps explains why some
>people find his prose strange.  I like prosey books and find the Aubrey
>novels much more full of life and colour than the Hornblower ones (which
>I haven't read for some years, it must be said); but then I don't really
>like `the modern novel', as opposed to modern novels, all that much.
>This is accusing Forester of too much, but you see what I mean (or not).
>It's simply taste, as we've all been saying.
>
>-- 
>Peter Stephenson     <pws@s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk> or <PWS@UKACRL>  (BITNET)
>Dept. of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics
>University of liverpool, U.K.
>Tel. +44 51 794 3784 or 3791
>

I agree that O'Brian is more of an historical novelist, and he uses a style
that borders on arcane.  However, he is successful in utilizing this fiction
genre to mirror many of the concerns and issues of contemporary society
(without getting caught up in trying to be "relevant").  Also, I agree with
your preference for this style of writing to that of the "modern novel". 
Probably for that reason, I find that I prefer British writers to American
writers in general.
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Correction About Whig Philosopher (Re: Why I read the Economist)
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:54:37 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <12085@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <1992Sep1.050401.1670@morrow.stanford.edu>, francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
> > The Economist does not operate under American definitions, it is a
> > British institution. In Great Britain there is nothing conservative about
> 
> Completely agreed.
> 
> > a pro-gun position. There has never been a time in british history when
> 
> It was always a Whig position.  Read some Sydney Harrington.

Whoops!  James Harrington, not Sydney Harrington.  Somehow, James
Harrington, Algernon Sidney, and John Trenchard all merged together
into SuperWhig! for a brief moment in my brain.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15542 soc.culture.british:12113
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:48:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: VOILA.NICKH.92Sep3104858
	<1992Sep1.090554.22419@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
	<NICKH.92Sep1115007@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU>
	<1992Sep2.060138.10543@sq.sq.com>
	<1992Sep2.231256.20099@news.Hawaii.Edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1992Sep2.231256.20099@news.Hawaii.Edu> gerard@caliban.soest.hawaii.edu (Gerard Fryer) writes:

   Someone writing on this thread observed that the Economist is aimed at
   a mere sixth form reading and comprehension ability.  Well that's
   better than the competition.  By their own admission Time and Newsweek
   are aimed at about ninth grade (i.e., third form).

Like I said, drool-proof. Aimed at the _average_ 13-year-old, who
can't form sentences of more than 10 words, or read sentences of more
than 15, and would rather be playing Nintendo but will sit still if
you give him glossy colour pictures. The Economist is genuinely better
(though still terribly simplistic); there are very few news magazines
aimed at the genuinely educated.

In fact, are there any?

Nick
From: drm@esl.com (Don McGregor )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books on Disc
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:54:48 GMT
Reply-To: drm@esl.com

In article <qwmnr3#.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> I've seen ads for collections of this sort.  They might actually be
> worth it, depending on how good the accompanying software is, if you
> do frequent lookups, word counts, etc.  But for reading?  Can you
> imagine having to read these books from a computer monitor?
> 
I'm somewhat spoiled since I have a NeXT both at work and home.  The  
screen is plenty stable, big and has high resolution.  Get a ReAL computer  
:-)

But yes, when I'm reading a book I tend to sprawl across the couch, which  
is difficult to do with a workstation.  That makes reading novel-length  
texts inconvienient.  Short stories or poetry (Yeats, Coleridge, Milton,  
and some others are also on the disc) might be different. You could keep  
open a window on a short piece while waiting for compiles, though this  
strategy is becoming more problematic now that machines are getting  
faster.  And it is kind of fun to bring up the _Federalist Papers_ and do  
a word search on something or other.  It's great for browsing.  I'd never  
seen a long Bulwer-Lytton piece before; he's every bit as bad as his  
reputation has made him out to be.

For $40--two or three hardcover books--you can't go seriously wrong.

--
Don McGregor
drm@esl.com  
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:15247 rec.humor:27330 alt.folklore.urban:22422 rec.arts.sf.misc:2744 alt.religion.kibology:3656
From: wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 06:53:26 GMT

Here's a partial copy of the letter I sent to Mark Toronto (sorry if I
spelled that wrong, Mark. I deleted my lines before double-checking) in
response to his post. I was going to post a reply, but got bogged down
with semester beginnings: "To answer your question, which
I will answer again on the net, the news mags are used as a tool for the
research paper in English 102. That gets students moving towards the
periodicals section of the library, where the most current information
(on literature and other topics) resides. Books can often be devilishly
out of date or hard to get a hold of while they're still new. Periodicals
give good scholars a leg uon the latest research, because before it 
appears as a book, it always appears as an article in a journal. But 
102 students don't have anything to do with that; they just need good 
information on a topic they're interested in, which means something
current. The best place to find that is in periodicals, and the best 
current affairs magazine--one that argues a point the way I'd like to 
see my students argue a point--is The Economist."
Furthermore, 102 students also study literature--the class is a bastard-
ization of composition and literature. Although the people in this news
group are all interested in reading literature, how many of you would 
like to write an imitation of the Modest Proposal by Swift? Wouldn't
it also be difficult to write a stylistic analysis of The Rape of the
Lock? You see, the emphasis of the class is writing, and everything
needs to be geared to that. What's more, those of us with a good ed-
ucational background end up skipping 102, which is a minimum require-
ment in writing and humanistic instruction set up by the school. The
students don't need seventeenth century poetry; they need contemporary
prose. I'm not saying they're too dumb to educate, just that they need
to get excited about English, rather than exasperated with it. 
But I'm getting away from my point. The only newsmagazine I have ever
read that can be regarded as having consistently fine, articulate, in-
telligent contemporary prose is THE ECONOMIST! I feel very strongly about
this because I lived in Taiwan trying to make a living fishing stories
out of the world news services and The Economist saved me on countless
occasions. The depth of the writing and the coverage is far beyond Timeweek
& World Report. There is no basis for comparison.  

Michael Wise
From: yarnot@csusac.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Errata
Date: 23 Aug 92 22:15:43 GMT
Organization: Moi?

>

Well, I must have still been tired when I posted my summer vacation report, 
though today's post of "Carles" instead of "Charles", is all the fault of
one of my Many Admirers (tm) "send"ing to me while I was attempting to post.

I forgot two books, in the first place.  One post-Powell buy was the Audubon
Society Pocket Guide to Familiar Birds of North America, another picture book,
and easier to find That Bird in than the other bird books we have.  Another from
the Whitman Mission, about the SageRs (oops) is Thompson, _Shallow Grave at 
Wailatpu: The Sagers' West_.

A Dinosaur Dynasty is about the Sternbergs.  This family apparently dug for
about 100 years starting in 1870.  The worst mistake I made, and I think 
there's an explanation, is saying _Dinosaurs in the Attic_ was about the
Smithsonian, when it's really about the (fabulous!) American Museum of Natural
History in New York City.  (My explanation being the "attic" appellation as
applied to the Smithsonian.)

(I also forgot to mention the prize story, IMO, of the trip.  Having left
the long-suffering and relative-weary son with his aunt when I went to visit
Barbara, I thought I would bring along a recent picture to show her, and had 
one of the two of us at Crater Lake.  I handed it over with the remark, "this
is what my son looks like."  She glanced at it and said "Oh, are they twins?"
We do look a lot alike, though there's a 31 year difference: I love Barbara,
Vince hates her.)

-- 
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | A lifetime of smirking behind your hand
                              | is a lot better than a few seconds of
                              | triumph.
CSUS depends on my every word.              Kinsella, _Box Socials_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: citrin@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Citrin)
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brien vs Horatio Hornblower...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:32:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.170914.9016@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>
>	I introduced my wife to Forester this year and she has ripped
>through the Hornblower saga as well as coming up with novels I had
>never heard of. We both have Patrick O'Brien on the list but haven't
>read anything as yet. I do get the sense from reviews of O'Brien that
>the sea and ships might be the only real point of comparison between
>he and Forester. Isn't the relationship between  Aubrey and the Doctor
>very important to the stories?
>

I haven't read anything by Forester, but I've read the first 5-1/2 volumes
of the O'Brian series and I'm enjoying it immensely.  Yes, the relationship
between the two characters is most important.  As the reviews (particularly
John Bayley's review in the NY Review of Books) say: yes, there's naval
action, but the characterizations and the depictions of daily life on the
ship are much more important.

Wayne

-----------
Wayne Citrin   citrin@soglio.colorado.edu   citrin@cs.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.religion.kibology