From: ronf@panther3.panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen)
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (28th)
Organization: Motorola Panther Project, Chandler, AZ
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:06:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.142547.10563@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>In article <1992Sep5.202436.20084@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>  In democracies, the
>>governments rule with the consent of the citizens.
>
>  How about a government that defines its citizens as only its white
>residents? Israel avoids the problem by carefully selecting who to call a
>citizen.  Who is ruling over the residents of Jerusalem, the West Bank
>and Gaza? Do they consent to the Israeli government?

The citzens of Jerusalim (and Golan) were offered citizenship, some took it, some
didn't.  I understand that in the Golan many "burned" their Israeli paper for
of what would happen to them if the Golan was returned to Syria.  Sort of
reminicent of 48' when the Arabs told their brothers to leave Israel or be killed
with the Jews.  Of course this was "sweetened" with, then you can return (after
Arabs "push the Jews into the sea") and have everything.

As for the WB and Gaza, Israel has been trying to give it back since the 70's.
Recall that from 48' - 67' the WB and Gaza were annexed by Jordan/Egypt.  Of
course the Palastineans reject the 70's automony plan out of hand.  The major
stumbling block is that Israel will not accept a PLO state (next door) that is 
armed (to the teeth).  The PLO will not accept a state unless they can have an
army.

>
>  Israel has a racist method of assigning citizenship. It rules with the
>consent of the majority of those it wishes to define as citizens. A racist
>product of a racist state.

All residents of Israel in 48' were granted citizenship.  When the Golan and
E. Jerusalim were annexed Israel offered citizenship to that population also.

<stuff deleted>

>
>> If the Israeli government
>>permitted the display of the terrorist PLO flag, against the wishes of
>>the vast majority of its citizens, that would be undemocratic.
>
>  The flag in question is the Palestinian flag, not the PLO flag. Declaring
>your enemy to be terrorist is quite common and does not make it true.

I see, so you claim the PLO isn't a terrorist organization.  
Please tell that to the
families of the Munich Olypians, the passengers of the Achilli Lauro, the parents
of the children that where machine gunned while in school, ect... the PLO
commits terrorist acts and TAKES responsibilty for them.  But you say it is
just those evil Israeli's labeling the enemy terrorist.  BULL.  Even Arafat
agreed (to the US) to stop terrorist acts, but then said that doesn't apply to 
Israel.  By the way in most European countries it is illegal to spead 
hate, advocate violence, ect..  does anybody know if a Nazi group can freely 
gather and proclaim there "philosophy"
in Germany, France, Italy, ect... without being in violation of the anti-hate
laws?

>
>>The laws are the same for all citizens,  Jew and non-Jew.  All nations
>>have laws regulating immigration, and those laws do not apply to
>>citizens (by their very nature).
>
>  Let me repeat myself:
>
>>>    A Palestinian born and raised in Jerusalem cannot return while a total
>>>    stranger from Russia is welcomed, given citizenship and accomodation.

A citzen in the US that defected to the USSR (during the Cold War) was not
allowed to just return.  While immigrants from other countries are allowed to
come to the US.  During a time of War leaving to go to the "other" side is
considered a capital punishment.  Do you think that during WWII if a German or
Japanese left the US, he could have just "returned"?  Not to mention that many
left to actively fight in the "war of destruction".  The right of return is a
popualr issue with the PLO et al.  If they are able to flood Israel with 
PLO patriots they can destroy the country from the inside.  I am sure you are
very disappionted that Israel has not allowed this.

>
>  Israel's laws are not the same for all its citizens, see laws regarding
>military service and benefits accrued from it. The immigration laws are
>designed to define who the citizens are in order to transform the region
>demographically.
>
>>>  - Taxation without representation. Ask anyone from the occupied territories.
>>>    Israel is no democracy.
>
>>The territories are not part of Israel.  These comments could just as
>>well apply to Peurto Rico or the US Virgin Islands.
>
>  Of course not! Puerto Rico has its own government, and so do the Virgin
>Islands. Palestinians are given a government that defines them as enemies.
>They choose nothing, they just pay.

Again Israel has been trying to get the PLO to accept automony in the WB/Gaza for
20+ years.  Even during the allied occupation of Germany, the Germans payed taxes
to the occupational forces.

>
>  Furthermore, since when is the U.S. the standard by which democracy is
>measured?
>
>>>  - Israel is in violation of numerous UN resolutions. Israel is no democracy.
>

Ahhh, well if the Arabs had honored the original UN action that created Israel
NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.  Of course what you are interested in, is Israel
complying to select portions of UN resolutions that call for it make concessions.
Of course these resolutions 242/244 call for "land for peace".  The Arabs have
until just recently said they want ALL the land and will not give peace.  But of
course you see Israel is the only guilty party.

>>That's the same UN that passed the infamous "Zionism is Racism"
>>resolution, thus losing any credibility it might have had in the
>>Arab-Israeli conflict.  One cannot take any of those automatic
>>anti-Israel resolutions seriously.
>
>  That's also the same UN that partitioned Palestine. At least we agree on the
>credibility of the UN, although for different reasons. Let's not be selective
>in what resolutions to implement.
>
>>Palestinian territory?  There is no such thing, since there has never
>>been an independent entity called Palestine.
>
>  The big lie. I saw Palestinian money and passports. I have friends who were
>born in Palestine. Palestine is drawn as a state in any atlas or map before
>1948, check it out. Even national geographic had many maps that show
>Palestine. In any case, independent or not, Israel is now occupying it.

No Israel is not occupying ot.  The is Israel, there is Jordan (why do you not
accuse Jordan of occupying Palastine, they cleary "occupy" the majority of what
was Palastine), and there may be again a Palastine in the WB/Gaza if the Peace
Process is successful.
>
>
>  Israel is occupying Jerusalem, Gaza, The West Bank, South Lebanon, the
>Golan heights, and until recently Sinai. Israel occupied territory from
>everyone of its neighbors, then complains that it has many enemies.

Gee, how did it come to "occupy" the lands?  Were they attack from them, yes,
thats it.  The gov'ts (except Lebasnon) that controlled these territories used
them to attack the sovern state of Israel, and lost.  In Lebanons case the PLO
had setup their own little gov't and had built a formible offensive army.  The
constant shelling, rocket and terrorist attacks from South Lebanon brought about
the Israeli response.

>
>  "The borders of Israel extend as far as the Israeli army can go."

Israel has extended itself to Beruit and Damascus. As well as well into Jordan
I am sure.  They withdrew to the piont were they couldx defend themselves from
further attacks.  In case you forget Israel not only trade land for peace 
with Egypt, but they traded a piece of land with lots of oil (money, power).
What has the PLO ever done to show they are serious about peace?  Just saying it
doesn't count.  What have they offered?  To stop terrorist attacks, NO!  To
halt the Infatada, NO!  To even remove article 19 (calls for the destruction of
Israel) from their charter, NO!

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Mazen Mokhtar
>


-- 

>
Ron Feigen
ronf@panther.mot.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic