From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Info on Macedonia
Date: 26 Jan 93 10:28:56 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1993Jan23.003014.14286@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, by lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis):
> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
> 
>>> group of people.  In this case the rights of Greeks who live in Macedonia,
>>> Greece, are violated by the request of Skopjeans to gain recognition
>>> under the name "Macedonians".
> 
>>This is a circular argument resting on the assumption that only
>>GraecoMacedonians have the right to the name Macedonian.
> 
> First, the term "GraecoMacedonians" is a new one, according to my knowledge.
> Up to this point the Greeks who lived in Macedonia were called simply
> Macedonians (Alexander the Great and Aristotles were simply Macedonians
> -a subset of Greeks,- not GraekoMacedonians. )

OK when we are referring to one group of Macedonians this is fair
enough, but GraecoMacedonians is a good way of distinguishing
Macedonians who are ethnically Greek from other sorts of Macedonians
such as Slavic Macedonians. As for your examples, Alexander was
certainly an ancient Macedonian, but the ancient Macedonians weren't
Greeks (or slavs for that matter). Aristotle wasn't even a Macedonian,
Stagira was a Greek colony planted on Macedonian soil, no annceint
Stagiran would have thanked you for calling him a Macedonian. If we are
going to assign nationality to ancient fifures by virtue of modern
geography this has some unfortunate consequences as the Greek historian
Herodotus will turn out to have been a Turk!


> 
> Second, it is the Skopjeans who ask for recognition.  Therefore, it is
> up to them to prove (with historical, geographical etc) arguments that
> they diserve the title "Macedonians".
> 
> 
>> But this is what needs to be proved and the burden of proof rests firmly on
>> the group who wish to appropriate this name for their exclusive use. As yet
>>I have seen no good arguments used in this regard. I fail to see how
>>sharing a name violates any one's rights.
> 
> It does.  First, you use the term GraecoMacedonians to refer to the Greeks 
> living in Macedonia, Greece.  If the Skopjeans have used a name other
> than "Macedonians" then the prefix "Greaco" would be unnecessary, as it
> was the case in antiquity. 


No this argument won't work. I have no doubt there are Macedonians who
are Greek, GraecoMacedonian just distinguishes them from other
Macedonians who aren't ethnically Greek. Throughout this argument there
is an unfortunate premiss of racial purity on the Greek side. As for
antiquity there would be no confusion as the Macedonians were never
regarded as Greek. Look at the way Arrian (a *Greek* historian) distinguishes the two groups
throughout his history of Alexander.


 
> Second.  Suppose that Macedonia, Greece, decides to become an independent
> country (Just for the example folks!!!!).  Can she apply to gain recognition
> in the UN, as the "Republic of Macedonia", if the Republic of Skopje has
> already been recognized as "Republic of Macedonia"?
> 

Not very likely is it since I'm sure Greek Macedonia is full of 100%
loyal Greek who want to remain part of the motherland. This is
hypothetical Macedonia, Greece, must apply under a different name!
> 
> In this case, the right of Macedonians in Greece to call themselves
> Macedonians and name their country "Republic of Macedonia" is taken 
> away by the Skopjeans because they have already used it in defining their
> identity.

First off what you call Skopjeans are of course Macedonians. Are all
Greeks Arthenians or all the British Londoners. If the only worry you
can posit is that a break away state which is never going to exist,
can't call itself by a certain name you seem to have a very poor
position. No one, least of all the government of the Republic of
Macedonia, has denied that there are Graeco (as opposed to Slavic,
Albanian etc) Macedonians. The real problem is that the Greeks wish to
appropriate this name to which they have a *part* share for their own
exclusive use. 


 
>>I don't think the Republic of Macedonia wants to share the
>>Graecomacedonian identity just assert its own different, but equally
>>Macedonian identity.
> 
> If it is different why do not they use another name and leave us alone?
> There are benefits that are associated with that name and that's why 
> they stick with it.

I can't think there are any benefits as you suggest. I suspect they ant
to stick with it for the same reasons as I want to stick with 'British'
and not have 'Londoner' foisted upon me. It's my name and its non of
anyone's business to tell me to drop it.


> 
>>argument for Greek propagandists as it makes the rash assumption that
>>the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.  The problem is this isn't at all
>>clear.  Plenty of ancient Greeks would have disagreed very strongly and
>>that includes not only enemies of Macedonian imperialism such as
>>Demosthenes and Aratus but also friends of it such as Isocrates.  It's
> 
> Then why were ancient Macedonians eligible to participate in the ancient
> Olympic games, where only Greeks could participate ?


Interesting. First of the star proof is the speech of Alexander I at
Olympia. What he claims is not that the Macedonians were Greek, but that
his family were Greek being descended from Argos. I wonder why he did
that if the Macedonians were unproblematically Greek or why the question
was even raised. We needed believe the claim which could have been
accepted for political reasons, especially if this is the 476 Olympiad.
There are even problems with the veracity of the story itself. After
this who was going to have the courage to block the military dictator
Philip II? Good proof of the flexibility of the Olympics is shown by the
participation of the Roman emperor Nero - was he a Greek?

> 
> Why did they use Greek names such Alexandros (for Alexander), Philipos
> (for Philip II) and not names such as Goce, Kiro, or Andrej?


Nomenclature proves nothing. I'm British, my names are respectively
Greek :-, Hebrew and French. Perhaps given my views on Macedonia this
would make me due for a treason trial in Greece :-
 
> ( Although I would aggree with you that in the past there were many
>   questions about the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians, recent (1980)
>   findings in arcaeological excavations have strengthened the view that
>   ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe.  I would read some recent 
>   literature on this subject.)

I have, I do this for a living.

Andy
> 
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