HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: JMARTTILA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? 
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:20:21 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1993Jan12.133325.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes: 
> > There is not too much sence in economical or related unification  between 
> > Estonia and  the Nordic countries.  Both sides would  benefit  of limited 
> > political co-operation.  Currently I just can't see how it could work, if 
> > the co-operation  reached the  internordic extent.  The Nordic  countries
> > wouldn't gain as much as they give.                           
> 
> In the Baltic case the idea is that Norden should support the newly
> independent states more determinedly. Not that we should gain as much as
> we give.

You're right indeed. We should support them more, but not by unification. 
Unification means opening the borders which would lead to big problems in
the Nordic and Baltic countries, if it were done now.
 
> In the long run the solidarity would benefit us as well: stabilizing the
> Baltic counditions could be a noble cause and a realistic goal.

What we should do to support both the Baltic states and ourselves is 
encouraging our businesses to put their investments there. This would
not be just moving money, but also founding new production plants there.
Another thing is helping the Baltic countries to get a capable frontier
guard. After that there would be not that much need for visa. Removing
the visa would increase trade, if people could move more freely across 
the border.
In other words this would mean letting people and companies to go there
making the money inside the Baltic borders instead of our governments
just giving away our money.


	JM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:03:22 GMT

Bob Hammarberg (hberg@polisci.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan8.133119.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: 
: Jarmo, our house-fascist, of course views these matters in terms of Blut und 
: Boden, we don't have to take him seriously, do we?

Is it faschism to support the estonians joyning Nordic Council? If faschism 
is so useful label for all things I could turn it the other way round and
call those people faschists who are against Estonia joyning Nordic Council,
with other words those swedes and norwegians who represent their respective
countries in NC. For me they are fischists, protecting pure "scandinavian
organization".

May be you are one of those swedish blut und boden thinkers in this question?
Nordic Concil only  for the scandinavians? It is namely for me faschism.
Thanks for the comments however, faschist.
regards,
jarmo ryyti
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pyan@watstat.uwaterloo.ca (just call me Ping...)
Subject: Re: UNINETT adresser
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:07:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.100205.20677@nntp.nta.no> snorre@tellus.unik.no (Snorre Aunet) writes:
>From "klv@ugle.unit.no (Knut Lambrigt Vik)" Wed Aug 19 09:33:08 1992
>Flags: 000000000001
[deleted]

Just following  the same topic:   could someone on the net help me to figure 
out the following address?

I got something like  ...@albin.ies.leth.se 
from Lulea University , Sweden.  Apparently something was wrong in the 
spelling of the above e-mail address.  Is there anybody from that 
university or with knowledge on that address to help me out?

Thanks a lot.

Ping



Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<hberg.299@polisci.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:58:45 GMT

In article <hberg.299@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
 writes:

   >They do eat a lot of fisch, don't they?  Especially in Norway!


  No, people in Norway subsist largely on whaleburgers. At least this
was the impression some Norwegian posters gave in a recent exchange.

  I believe Jarmo Ryyti was referring to the evil Swedish policy of forcing
all the fisch in the Baltic to speak Swedish, exterminating those cods and
herrings that insist on speaking Finnish.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? (Was: The Samii languages....)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:21:16 GMT

In article <hberg.296@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu 
(Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> In article <1993Jan8.192742.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
> 
> 
> 
>>> Realistically,  Estonia's "Swedishness" must be 
>>> seen as a "good old days" fantasy.
> 
> 
>>I am not calling Estonia Swedish but it's Estonians that would like to be 
>>accepted "Nordic".
> 
> Well, isn't part of Estonia's claim to "Nordicness" based on once having 
> been part of an indisputably Nordic realm, ie Sweden?  (that's how I 
> understood your argument).  


That's a part of the Estonian claim. I will illustrate it in one detail:
during the previous year, the Estonians made a big number of the royal
visits from Sweden and Denmark. They found these connections profoundly
important for their nation.


> Realistically (again), Estonia's desire to join 
> the Nordic Council is based on economic considerations, 


Economic, cultural and political motives are behind their desire.
Could we require them have any better motives?


> and a desperate wish 
> to get out of the XUSSR sphere of influence.  


The wish is determined, but not desperate! Estonia got - to most of
us in a surprising manner - independent in 1991. I think this indepencence
shold be supported by the Nordic peoples. We could contribute to the
integration of Estonia in World community (first UN, then CSCE, next
European Council. Why not Nordic Council?).


> The Swedish resistance to the 
> idea seems to be its (Sweden's) traditional wish for neutrality: stay out 
> of anything that could cause trouble later, in case Russia decides to 
> reassert its claims to the Baltic regions.


Expressed more clearly: one should do nothing for Baltics because there
might emerge some problems with Russia.

This has, fortunately, been neither the policy of Bilt government nor
the Schlueter government.

The arguments against "Nordicness" of Estonia were based on the fact
that Estonian is no Scandinavian tongue. Neither is Finnish.
Should we be excluded from "Norden" because of that?


with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: palm@admin.kth.se (Christer Palm)
Subject: Re: stockholm university internet address?
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:39:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.181427.8410@ghost.dsi.unimi.it> lucca@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (antonio lucca) writes:
>Please, can someone tell me the internet address? 
>

Try "postmaster@su.se"

/Christer

-- 
"Destiny makes relatives, selection makes friends."
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Sweden - World frisbee champions?
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:38:27 GMT
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

The New York Times (which never tells a lie) lists Sweden as the champion of 
the Open Division of the World Ultimate Championship in frisbee.

(Eat you heart out, Jarmo!)
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:32:20 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <hberg.290@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:

stuff deleted

>  What bothers me is the "of-course-ness" that some people exhibit in these 
>matters:  "Of course Finnish is a Nordic language!"  "Nordic" is not a 
>linguistic category, so how can a language be "Nordic"?  We could just as 
>well claim that Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic, Saami, and 
>Estonain are Lutheran languages; that Sw, Fi, and No are 60th parallel 
>languages; that certain language are characterized by being spoken north of 
>a line running 150 miles north of the Eiffel Tower.  Come to think of it 
>though, if you're a post-modernist perhaps those categories make sense...

I agree that there is no "of-course-ness" but the problem is still more
complicated.

As I have said before, at least in Sweden and Norway, the word "Nordic"
is used as a linguistic category in the term "Nordiska spraak" meaning
Scandinavian languages + Icelandic and Faeroese.
Scandinavia is used for Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and excludes
Iceland and the Faero islands as well as Finland, etc. 
In English one would probably use the term Scandinavian languages for
all the "Nordiska spraak".

The term "Nordiska spraak" obviously does not mean the same thing as the
native languages of the Nordic countries (traditionally Scandinavia +
Finland, Iceland and the Faero Islands) which may be covered by "Nordisk
spraakkonvensjon".

Rolf Manne

e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 11 Jan 93 10:31:56 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <1993Jan10.165857.6600@klaava.Helsinki.FI> petterss@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jouko Kalevi Pettersson) writes:

>Henrik Jonsson (d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se) wrote:

>  (stuff deleted)
>> 'When the ugrian people came wandering from Asia the ones that were
>> able to read turned south towards Hungary and the other ones turned
>> north towards Finland.'

>Hungarians have a version of their own. They tell it like this:

>'When the Ugries came from Asia, they stopped by crossroads and 
>there was a singpost with two texts. The other was 'Battlefields
>of Central Europe' and the other 'Nordic wellfare and democracy'.
>They, who were able to read chose the latter.'

>Notice the same melancoly with both nations!

I was once told by a native Finn that Finns and Hungarians have words
of the same origin for the numbers 1-6 but different words for the
higher numbers. Therefore, when Finns and Hungarians left each other's
company, they knew how to count to 6 but not to 7. :-)

Rolf Manne
e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
From: sizex@bnr.co.uk (Eric Barber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:09:48 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, England.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.199.202.49

In article <nkjrm.100@taxus.uib.no> nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
>In article <hberg.290@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:

stuff deleted

>As I have said before, at least in Sweden and Norway, the word "Nordic"
>is used as a linguistic category in the term "Nordiska spraak" meaning
>Scandinavian languages + Icelandic and Faeroese.
>Scandinavia is used for Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and excludes
>Iceland and the Faero islands as well as Finland, etc. 
>In English one would probably use the term Scandinavian languages for
>all the "Nordiska spraak".

interestingly, at least some people in the department of scandinavian
studies at university college london regard finnish as a scandinavian
language even though it's taught at the department of east european
studies at ucl!

Eric
   _    "just a Texan a long way from home"
 _| ~-. Eric Barber, BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, England CM17 9NA
 \, *_} AT&T/BT/etc. +44 279 403527/429531 x 3527, ESN (NT/BNR) 6 742 3527
   \(   DISCLAIMER:  Working at, not speaking for, BNR  | Eric.Barber@bnr.co.uk
From: nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:58:39 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen

I have not read Nordisk spraakkonvensjon. I have no problem of
accepting a definition of the Nordic languages by enumeration or as those 
languages which are historically spoken in the Nordic countries.

What I want to point out, however, is that in both Sweden and Norway
there are university subjects and institutes with a deviating definition:
Nordisk institutt at Norwegian universities and Institutionen foer nordiska 
spraak at Swedish universities deal with the Nordic languages of Germanic 
origin: Icelandic, Faeroish, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. According 
to the Uppsala catalog from 1985/86 Finsk-ugriska institutionen handled
Finnish and Samish. There was no teaching of the Baltic languages in
Uppsala that year.

Rolf Manne
e-mail Rolf.Manne@uib.no
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? (Was: The Samii languages....)
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:12:31 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <hberg.297@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:
> In article <1993Jan9.172116.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> 
> 
>>The arguments against "Nordicness" of Estonia were based on the fact
>>that Estonian is no Scandinavian tongue. Neither is Finnish.
>>Should we be excluded from "Norden" because of that?
> 
> So the argument is purely linguistic, then?  That's hard to believe!  But 
> if true, then you should thank us Finlandswedes for Finland's membership in 
> the NC.  BTW, how many Estoniaswedes are still in Estonia?  


Very few indeed, some thousands at most. The most Swedes resided on islands
and were involved with maritime activities. They were among th first to
desert before the Soviet occupation, which was clever indeed: the Soviet
army closed the border and the native population was excluded from
anything connected to navigation for decades.

 
> But let's get back to the original point:  There are no empirical criteria
> for determining "Nordicness", hence any argument as to whether Estonia is a 
> Nordic country or not, is meaningless.  


Of course it's no question concerning natural science but politics!


> The NC is a purely political 
> organization, like the UN, and membership is determined by political 
> considerations, not by examining a given country for signs of "Nordicness".
> Can we agree on that?


Sure, but the arguments used when turning down Estonia's application
were "naturalistic" ones. The real intentions behind were never clear 
for me.

- Tapani Hietaniemi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Keywords: klapperslange, stoevsauger
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:33:56 GMT

In article <1hqjcaINN6vc@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:


>However, I'm also impressed by the ability of many Danes to
>speak either Swedish or a kind of easy, articulated Danish
>targeted at Swedish ears, when this is called for.  I'm not
>sure my attempts at making the reciprocal trick for Danish
>ears would be equally successful...

Considering that Swedish phonology is far more "conservative" than Danish, 
this is not surprising.  All a Dane has to do is pronounce words the way 
they are spelled (the spelling reflects older pronunciation, of course); in 
other words, the Dane can use (something close to what Chomsky called) 
underlying forms.  For a Swede to pull the reciprocal trick, he'd have to 
apply all the phonological rules that the Danes have added over the last few 
centuries - and those he (the Swede) simply doesn't know.  That would be 
a/one linguistic explanation of this phenomenon.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se (Henrik Jonsson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Date: 9 Jan 93 15:21:58 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg Sweden

ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>Well, Finland is one of the most eastern countries in Europe. Eastern-Finland
>is more in the east than for instance Istanboul, in Turkey. So in geographical
>terms they are correct. Finnish is however lingistiqually a fenno-ugrian
>language, geographically a scandinavian language, one should 
>remember that finnish is since 800 years been a minority language in Sweden
>without any official status, in Norway finnish is actually an old minority
>language too.

Well , for once , I don't share your oppinion, mr Ryyti.

The fenno-ugrian languages is NOT a 'scandinavian' language.
I quote a finnish official in the community of Roukki ( or something
somewhere in northern Finland ,i think ) :
'When the ugrian people came wandering from Asia the ones that were
able to read turned south towards Hungary and the other ones turned
north towards Finland.' (ok Ill place a smiley here but the quote is more
or less correct (it has been translated from finnish to swedish to english:))

:)

And in the 'good ole' days' when Finland was a part of Sweden (or if you like
if better) 'occupied' , Finnish had the same status in the Swedish Parliament
in Stockholm as Swedish since many of the represenataives from Eastern
Sweden :) spoke Finnish ... 

But ,Sure, I truly feel sorry that we horrible Swedes totally ruined your
beautifully civilized country in the 12th century when we occupied it,
build universities and organized cities and stuff. I really think it's
a crying shame that the world doesnt declare Finns as the highest of all
races and mr. Ryyti to be the Finns leader...


Jarmo for president!!!!

-Henrik 'Glad that Jarmo is Back to save the World' Jonsson

d1hej@dtek.chalmers.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kfa@atomi.hut.fi (Kim Fallstrom)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:06:53


<<<<<<< the history of a Finn saving the Swedish language deleted >>>>>>>>

>The stupidity which many swedes represent even in this newsgroup with this
>background is again proved. The swedes university people had every evening
>to give a pray of thankfulness for the Finns. Otherwise  swedish were 
>remained a language of peasents. 
>
>Regards for the all swedes who even do not know their own history, thanks
>to the Grundskolan?
>regards,
>jarmo ryyti

I am afraid that even without our help the Swedish language would have
gained an academic status in Sweden. Sigh. I think it has something to
do with having too much time and money and nothing better to do. At that
time all the Finnish peasants were too busy on their fields. And there were
very few non-peasant Finns. It is easier to make science or "culture" if 
you have lots of money and a non-anti-intelletual atmosphere. 

For some reason some of us Finns do have a touch of anti-intellectualism in 
their character. Maybe that is one of the reasons for there being so little
really Finnish culture in Finland. And most of this Finnish "culture" was 
created by some Swedish-speaking guys like J. Sibelius or Z. Topelius or 
A. Kivi (whose name was A. Stenwall, but he changed his name...) On the 
other hand, we  might be just too wise to spend our precious time on that 
kind of stupidity. Who needs "culture" anyway? 

You are right Jarmo. The Swedes are stupid. They are even spending money
on this "culture" thing. If we Finns need culture we can always watch TV!
The Swedish TV is visible in Finland, and all the Finns understand
Swedish language (because it is taught in "grundskolan"). 

Kim Fallstr|m

--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: armagan@sassafras (Armagan Ozdinc)
Subject: Danish and Icelandic Kronas
Reply-To: armagan@prc.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:55:08 GMT

How are Danish Krona and Icelandic Krona doing these days?  Are they
also expected to be devaluated like Swedish Kr., Norwegian Kr. or Finnish
Mark in the near future? If so, how soon?  What is the current exchange
rate between the US$ and Icelandic Krona? Thanks in advance.

----------------------------------------------------------------
 ARMAGAN A. OZDINC
 Paramax Systems, Valley Forge Labs, Research and Development
________________________________________________________________
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Norden > Scandinavia (Was: The Saami languages which are Nordic)
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:36:58 GMT
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1993Jan12.160058.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:


>Here's our family tree seen from the Finnish point of view:

>                         Finnish
>                            I
>                            I
>Estonian ------------------------------------------- Karelian
>Vote                        I                        Ingrian

.....

>                            I
>                            I
>                 Proto-Uralic ------------------------ Samoyedic
>                                                       tongues

What's the currrent opinion among Finnish scholars about the Uralic 
connection to Japanese and Korean (via Uralic-Altaic, of course)?  
The Japanese and Korean students we get here have been taught back home that 
the connection is an established fact, it seems.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:24:09 GMT

In article <hberg.286@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) 
writes:
> In article <1993Jan2.152736.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> 
> 
>>Of course it is a Nordic language like Finnish (See the Nordic
>>language convention: Nordisk spraakkonvention).
> 
> How do you know that?  


I have read the Nordisk spraakkonvention.


> Suppose I claimed that the Vatican is a Nordic 
> country. 


You might claim anything you like. People would not just buy your arguments.


> What criteria would you apply to refute this claim?  


The pope is not attending the Nordic council meetings, or is he?


>The best you 
> could do is claim *you* think it isn't, but why should I have to follow your 
> lead?


You can follow any lead you like. I just describe what is the usage
in NORDEN.

 
> Apparently "Nordic" is defined by enumeration, something like: "Nordic" = 
> "pertaining to Fi, Sw, No, Da, Icel".  What prevents anyone from adding to 
> or subtracting from that list?  If Estonia is a candidate for addition, why 
> not the Vatican?  


Exactly. 
Estonia has applied to the membership in Nordic Council. Which the Pope
has not done.


> Is Inuit (Eskimo) a Nordic language?  


Inuit languages spoken in Greenland are Nordic languages by definition.


> Is it Nordic only 
> when spoken on Greenland, but not in Canada?
 

It's the same language as Swedish being spoken in Sweden or Canada.


Where's the beef?


asks
A Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:15:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.060322.18498@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:


>with other words those swedes and norwegians who represent their respective
>countries in NC. For me they are fischists, protecting pure "scandinavian
>organization".                   ^^^^^^^^^

They do eat a lot of fisch, don't they?  Especially in Norway!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: fink@tpki.toppoint.de (Joerg Pechau)
Subject: Mailboxes in Norway?
Organization: Toppoint Mailbox e.V.
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 22:33:36 GMT

I'm searching Mailboxes with usenet-access in Norway.

Can anyone help?

CU Joerg
-- 
Gott schuetze auch die Koenigin und schenke ihr nen Bart.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic