HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Morphological development of the genitive case in German
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:53:38 GMT
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <memo.857761@cix.compulink.co.uk>, petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian) writes:
> In-Reply-To: <1993Jan11.090344.4952@memstvx1.memst.edu> connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu

[marvelous stuff omitted]

>> A final mystery is why *all* German feminines lack genitive -s.  In Indo-
>> European, the morphology of masculine and feminine i-stems was identical,
>> and had -s,
>> as may readily be seen by looking at Greek and Latin.  But in Old High 
>> German they're different for some reason.  To wit:
>> 
>>                         Masc.           Fem.
>>         Nom. Sing.      gast 'guest'    anst 'favor'
>>         Gen. Sing.      gastes          ensti
>>         Nom. Plural     gesti           ensti
>> 
>> Somehow -s survived in the masculine, but not in the feminine.  Apparently
>> the patterning of *other* masc. resp. fem. categories is to blame.
> 
> Could the answer lie in the coalescence of the masc. a-stems and
> i-stems in the singular? Perhaps the fem has the `correct' reflex of
> IE *-eis and the masc has taken over the reflex of *-os from the
> a-stems. Just a thought, I haven't checked the phonology.

Apparently so.  The IE genitive ending of o-stems was -e/o-s(j)o, while
i-stems had -e/os added to the stem: PIE *ghostej-es etc.  Final -s
generally (but not always!) dropped in Germanic, hence the i-stem geni-
tive ought to be s-less in both genders.  The o-stems kept their -s-
because it was not originally final. -- Phonologically, this works.
But the question is why the masculine i-stems adapted only partially
to the o-stem paradigm.  Seems an awkward way to proceed, though I know
perfectly well that morphological change in generally tends to be messy
in exactly this way.

--Leo Connolly
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: labio-velars to labials, but reverse?
From: robrtsnj@yvax.byu.edu (John S. Robertson)
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:29:25 -0700
Followup-To: sci.lang
Distribution: world
Organization: Brigham Young University

In article <memo.842322@cix.compulink.co.uk>, petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Peter Christian) wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <robrtsnj-311292101210@peirce.byu.edu> robrtsnj@yvax.byu.edu (John S. Robertson)
> 
> I am right in assuming Latin quinque shows assimilation rather than a
> genuine p > kw?
> 
> Peter
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Peter Christian               peter@gold.ac.uk
>                               petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I think it's assimilation--anticipating the future kw.
John
From: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Proto-languages: what are the rules?
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:31:08 GMT

Disclaimer:  The following expresses a desire for an explanation, NOT a
flame against the comparative method or even against its results.

Something that's always puzzled me:  how do historical linguists decide
what form should be the standard reconstructed form?  Consider the following
two cases:

In the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European, we find that Germanic languages
have /f/ where other IE languages have /p/ in a large number of words.
Confidently, we reconstruct IE /p/ and postulate a sound-change that affected
Germanic only.  Well and good.

But in the reconstruction of Proto-Romance, we find that Sard has /k/ where
other Romance languages have /s/ in a large number of words.  In this case,
the reconstruction is /k/, and the postulation is that a sound-change
affected >all< the Romance languages except Sard.  Apparent methodological
contradiction.

I realize, of course, that classical Latin provides a check on Proto-Romance.
Nevertheless, I suppose there must be other such cases that I have not
heard of.  What general principle determines what is the Right Thing?
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: sherry@eskimo.com (Sherry Brown)
Subject: Re: optional contractions 
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:51:33 GMT

Irish has optional contractions.  For example, to say "I understand
that"  one could write/say "Tuigeann m'e sin." or "Tuigim sin."  Either
one is grammatically correct.  In the modern language it occurs in the
first person singular/plural.  Also, in the spoken language, 
pronominals (the prepositional pronouns) are often contracted.  "Agam"
becomes "a'm" (at me, literally)  Some people do write this contraction
as well.
From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Classical Latin and Vulgate (was Re: Morphological ...)
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:28:42 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <C0pzMG.HFn@athena.cs.uga.edu>, mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington) writes:
> In article <1993Jan12.015941.23724@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan8.151334.6482@desire.wright.edu>, w0318@desire writes:
>>
>>>Also, for you Latin buffs, what are the general differences between Classical
>>>Latin (of Cicero, say) and the Vulgate?
>>
>>Subject matter.
> 
> Also, different ways of introducing subordinate clauses.  Less use
> of _cum_, more use of _ut_ and _quod_ (if memory serves me right).

A key syntactic point: abandonment of the accusative + infinitive con-
struction, used in CL for indirect discourse, in favor of noun clauses.

A full discussion would take a book.  Here are a few points off the top of
my head:

	1. The syntax of the Vulgate is always somewhat suspect because
	   it is a translation, and not always a successful one.  O'Neill
	   (did I get that right?) noted that the Vulgate is much easier
	   to read than Cicero.  True, except for the Psalms, which are
	   so scrambled as to be quite unintelligible in spots.  (If
	   memory serves, the reason is that St. Jerome never touched
	   them, retaining the older translations that Christians were
	   used to, whether they understood them or not.)  The Psalms are
	   so bad that the Vatican actually released a new Latin transla-
	   tion of them about 1950, which was intelligible but didn't
	   flow.

	2. The phonology of the Vulgate was quite different, but this is
	   difficult to see from printed editions, which use classical
	   spelling.  Some changes: loss of h, oe > e:, ae > E: (open),
	   assibilation of ti before vowels, palatalization and affri-
	   cation of /k g/ before front vowels (old or new), [w] > v,
	   fricative realization of /b d g/ between vowels, lengthening
	   of stressed short vowels, with various mergers occurring in 
	   different parts of the Roman world.  This is more thorough-
	   going than the syntax, but it's largely invisible to the
	   modern reader.

	3. Many changes in vocabulary.  Usually the new word is retained
	   in Romance, while the classical one is lost.  Instead of
	   _edere_ 'eat' we find _manducare_ (Fr. _manger_, Ital.
	   _mangiare_) and _comedere_ (Sp. _comer_).

	4. Classical forms of nouns, adjectives, and verbs are retained
	   in the Vulgate, though there is some reason to think that
	   this did not reflect everyday speech, which may already
	   have been down to a two-case system.

This is a very incomplete list, but it gives some idea.

-Leo Connolly
From: mdb@netcom.com (Mark Bisgeier)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Online OED
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:50:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

At rutgers.edu there is an online Concise OED available -- is there any
online version of the *complete* OED anywhere??

Thanks
-- 


                      """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
                       Mark Bisgeier   mdb@netcom.com
                        "Imagine the possibilities!"

                        """"""""""""""""""""""""""""
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Final(?) Draft of ASCII/IPA Representation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:58:38 GMT
Reply-To: kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories

All-
  My profoundest apologies for my inexcusable tardiness.
Unfortunately, the tasks I get payed to do built up, and finishing
this off got a low priority.  Still, when you start a project, you owe
it to others to see it completed, and so, with things slowing down
before the holiday shutdown, and two people having emailed me for
copies, I finally got off my ass and got this finished.

Following-up to this document will be the latest (last?) draft of the
standard and a document attempting to explain the system for English
speakers for the benefit of non-linguists in alt.usage.english (and
elsewhere).

The changes since the second draft are as follows:

  M   is now back as a (labio-dental nasal) segment rather than as a
      diacritic signifying nasalization.  This keeps the rule that all
      letters are segment symbols, which I think is useful.

  ~   as a diacritic following vowels signals nasalization.  Following
      consonants, it still signals velarization (but not
      pharyngealization).

  <?> as a diacritic signals murmuring.

  <H> as a diacritic signals pharyngealization rather than murmuring.

  ;   as a diacritic signals palatalization.

Since I did not get any feedback on my 'r' proposal, I did not include
it in this draft.  It was

> 	- reserve /r/ for the more common {alv,trl} (instead of
>           /r<trl>/)
> 	- use /R/ for the American {alv,apr} (instead of /r/)
> 	- use /R-/ for {mid,cnt,rnd,vwl} which always seemed to me
>           exactly equivalent to "syllabic r". (instead of /R/)
> 
> This means that I pronounce "brother" as /'bR@ DR-/ instead of /'br@
> DR/.  (perhaps those "@"s should be "V"s).
> 
> I've seen "r with vertical underbar" used for this sound in place of
> "schwa with hook".  Do people feel that these need to be
> dinstinguished?  Or is there general revulsion at redefining a vowel
> as a syllabic consonant?
> 
> For those of you who feel the scheme is too anglocentric, this would
> have the added advantage of being the first common English segment
> that needs to be written with a diacritic. :-)

Again, sorry for the delay.

Evan Kirshenbaum		       +------------------------------------
    HP Laboratories		       | Feeling good about government is like
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | looking on the bright side of any
    Palo Alto, CA  94304	       | catastrophe.  When you quit looking
				       | on the bright side, the catastrophe
    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com	       | is still there.
    (415)857-7572		       |                   P.J. O'Rourke
From: sizex@bnr.co.uk (Eric Barber)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Origin of English?
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:05:41 GMT
Followup-To: sci.lang
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, England.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.199.202.49

In article <9974@fs3.cam.nist.gov> koontz@cam.nist.gov (John E. Koontz X5180) writes:
<In article <memo.846118@cix.compulink.co.uk<, petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian) writes:
<|< < |< one of the striking features of English is its lack of conjugations
<|< < |< and declensions. 
<|< < 
<|< < Actually, English still contains conjugations, though the personal inflection
<|< < of most verbs is very simplified....
<|< 
<|< I don't think Eric meant absolute lack, but relative lack,
<|< considering its origins in a highly inflected language, and compared
<|< with its nearest cognates. ...
<
<...  I think what
<Eric meant was not "lack of conjugations and declensions," but
<"(relative) lack of inflection," or not quite so well put,
<"(relative) lack of conjugation and declension."
<----
<John E. Koontz (koontz@bldr.nist.gov)

that's what I meant, thanks. Eric
   _    "just a Texan a long way from home"
 _| ~-. Eric Barber, BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, England CM17 9NA
 \, *_} AT&T/BT/etc. +44 279 403527/429531 x 3527, ESN (NT/BNR) 6 742 3527
   \(   DISCLAIMER:  Working at, not speaking for, BNR  | Eric.Barber@bnr.co.uk
From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Bah! to bhaashaa
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:15:23 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

Two comments:

1. If you consult any professor of education, you will discover that it
has long been known that people read English by recognizing whole words.
In fact, it was at one time usua;lly taught that way: the "look-and-say"
method.  And most teachers do teach a lot of sight words.

2. The point of phonetic spelling is simply this: there is no other way
to dope out a word you have never seen before but may have heard.  And
for consistency's sake, the more phonetic a spelling system is, the
better, though in fact the Devanagari system for Sanskrit goes over-
board in writing precise sounds -- if only it had also deigned to
separate words, it would have been marvelous!

3. A pictographic system such as Chinese has one very large drawback
(well, several).  One is that dictionaries are extremely cumbersome
to use because there's nothing like our alphabetical order.

4. You're not the only computer engineer on this board.  Many of the
posters are computer professionals, and I myself, though a professor
of German and linguistics by trade, hold an M.S. in computer science
as well.  So don't think you have extraordinary insights simply be-
cause you're a computer engineer.  It just ain't so, regardless of
how your grandmother used to read.


I know that's four comments, but two didn't suffice.

--Leo Connolly
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian)
Subject: Re: Morphological development of the genitive case in German
Reply-To: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:33:00 +0000


> > If masculine and neuter nouns change their ending in the genitive as -es, as in
> > die Mutter meines Vaters, and feminine nouns don't have the -es ending, as in
> > der Vater meiner Mutter, why when making compound nouns with feminine nouns is
> > there sometimes something like die VergangenheitSbewaeltigung?  Notice the
> > genitive 's' there, I would conjecture that it follows from a pronunciation
> > rule,
> 
> I don't *know* the answer to this but I can think of two
> non-exclusive answers. 1) The point you suggest about pronunciation (not
> a rule, though, it's too irregular for that), i.e. to ease the
> transition between two consonants. 2) But initially probably the analogy
> of the masc. & neuters where people must have come to regard it as a
> compounding feature rather than as a reflex of the genitive. It would
> certainly be interesting to find the earliest example of this -s-
> with a feminine.

A fuller version of the latter hypothesis:

Originally it was possible for the genitive to precede the headword,
as in Des Kaben Wunderhorn, Des Teufels General etc. And the compound
with a masc. or neut. determinative derived its -s- from this
genitive. However, once the syntactical rule changed and the genitive
could only follow the head, the case function of the -s- was obscured
and it was taken to be a feature of compounding in general and thus
transferable to feminines.

I think this motivates the usage better.

Peter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Christian                         
  Dept of European Languages              peter@gold.ac.uk
  Goldsmiths' College, London.            petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.lang,misc.misc,sci.classics
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Need some Latin translated
Followup-To: sci.classics
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 18:33:40 GMT

In article <rdippold.725970842@cancun>, rdippold@cancun (Ron Dippold) writes:
>I've got about 60 short Latin phrases that I need translated, and my Latin
>sucks.  I spent a few hours with Bartletts and found that about half were
>"classical" phrases, so I have the meanings of those.  That leaves about 30.
>I've headed down to my bookstore, nothing on Latin (doesn't seem to be in big
>demand these days), I've got other stores to try but it'll be about a week.
>So... if anyone is familiar enough that they could whip off some translations
>without too much trouble I'd appreciate it. (BTW, these all come from the
>Asterix books...)
>
>Vae victo vae victis

Hail to the conquered one, hail to the conquered ones.

>Quomodo vales

How(ever) you want

>Visi (need the exact conjugation here)
>Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor
>Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxiliis, cur, quomodo, quando

Who?  What?  Where?  With what aids?  Why?  How?  When?  (Some reporter?  :-)

>Plaudite cives

(Y'all) applaud the citizens!

>Ita diis placuit

It pleases the gods thus.

>Exegi momentum aere perennius
>Victrix causa diis placuit sed victa catoni
>Victurus te saluto

I who am about to be victorious salute thee.

>Fluctuat nec mergitur
>Sol lucet omnibus

The sun shines on everyone/everything.

>Dignus est intrare
>Ab imo pectore

From the deepest chest => from the depths of my/your/his/her heart

>Bis repetita don't always placent (Latin/english mix)

Things repeated twice non semper please

>Et nunic, reges intelligite... erudimini qui judicatis terram
>Beati pauperes spiritu

Blessed are the poor in spirit

>Mon repos
>Mea Requies
>Maior e longinquo reverentia
>Quousque tandem
>Vadere quo

To go whither

>Gloria victis

Glory to the conquered ones

>Veritas odium parit

Truth gives birth to hate

>Vinum et musica laetificant cor

Wine and music make the heart happy

>De mortuis nil nisi bonum

Concerning the dead (say) nothing except a good thing

>Qui habet aures audiendi audiat

Let him/her who has ears for hearing hear

>Donec eris felix, multos numerabis amicos

While you will be (=> are), you will number many friends

>Uti, non abuti

To use, not to abuse

>Non licet omnibus adire corinthum

It is not permitted to all to approach/go to Corinth.

>Contraria contrariis curantur
>Quot capita, tot sensus

However many heads, so many opinions

(That's as many as I can get without a dictionary.  I've re-directed this to
sci.classics...)
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: nholmes@leven.appcomp.utas.edu.au (Neville Holmes)
Subject: Re: ..... On bhaashaa, lipi | language, scripts ...
Summary: Dialect variation in Esperanto ?
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 00:04:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.114313.15553@infodev.cam.ac.uk>, etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) writes:
>|> TITLE: Dialect variation in Esperanto
>The difference are however not large enough or consistent enough to merit
>the title "dialect". .....

A year or two ago I read a book called "La Bona Lingvo" by an apparently
very experienced polyglot called Claude Piron.  As I remember it, the
reason he wrote the book was to protest (perhaps I use too strong a word
here, more likely too weak) at the splitting of Esperanto into two
dialects.

As he saw it, European Esperantists were bent on adding to Esperanto's
vocabulary by using words from classic (Indoeuropean) languages.  This
is done in a bureaucratic way from Europe. The European tendency is to
add words and constructions and to prohibit other kinds of change.
By contrast, the vigourous Esperanto world outside Europe used
the inherent and fruitful agglutination provided by Esperanto
to express new ideas. The non-European tendency is to simplify by
neglecting complexity and exploiting the combinatorial properties
of Esperanto.  (This summarises Piron's book as I remember it.)

I for one hope that the non-Europeans win this battle.  My personal
observations are that the properties and ideals of Esperanto are
of enormous potential value, but that the Esperanto movement, through
a strange kind of conservatism, is making the language more complex,
is keeping it from becoming simpler, and has little idea of how to
promote its product and ideals other than as a kind of exclusive
(and largely ageing) brethren.  The best hope for Esperanto lies
outside Europe.

(I expect these opinions will deeply offend most Esperantists on
the network, who seem from their own group soc.culture.esperanto
to be even more conservative and less agglutinative than the movement
as a whole.   However, I strongly approve of Esperanto and its ideals,
and I appeal to readers of this group to interest themselves in an
unusual area of linguistics with particular modern political and
practical relevance.)
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neville Holmes                       AARNET: Neville.Holmes@appcomp.utas.edu.au
Dept of Applied Computing & Maths    Phone : +61 03 243 393 or (003) 243 393
University of Tasmania - Launceston  Fax   : +61 03 243 368 or (003) 243 368
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: ederveen@athena.research.ptt.nl (Ederveen D.)
Subject: Cours Gratuit d'Esperanto (regula posxtajxo / postage re'gulier)
Summary: cours d'Esperanto par correspondance sur le re'seau
Keywords: esperanto, cours sur le re'seau
Reply-To: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research, The Netherlands
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:54:55 GMT

Postage re'gulier sur le                                Regula pos^taj^o pri la
                            COURS GRATUIT D'ESPERANTO

Quoi ?                                  Kio ?
Un cours d'Espe'ranto sur le re'seau,   Reta Esperanto-kurso, havebla en ambau~
disponible en anglais et en francais.   la angla kaj la franca lingvoj. G^i
Base' sur le Cours Gratuit par Corres-  bazig^as sur la Cours Gratuit par
pondance de la Socie'te' Que'becoise    Correspondance de la Esperanto-Asocio
d'Espe'ranto. Nous espe'rons le fournir de Kebekio. Ni esperas aldoni kursojn
prochainement dans d'autres langues.    en aliaj lingvoj estonte.

Combien ?                               Kiom ?
Gratuit! 10 lec,ons.                    Senpaga! 10 lecionojn.

Comment ?                               Kiel ?
Les correcteurs du re'seau vous         Instruantoj en retlando helpos vin,
aideront, corrigeront vos exercices et  korektos viajn ekzercojn, kaj sendos al
enverront les suivants.                 vi sekvajn lecionojn.

Pourquoi ?                              Kial ?
Pour apprendre l'Espe'ranto, bien su^r! Por lerni Esperanton, kompreneble!

Qui ?                                   Kiu ?
Pour vous!                              Por vi!

Ou` ?                                   Kie ?
Envoyez-moi votre adresse e'lectronique Sendu e-pos^ton al mi (adreso: vd.
(voir plus bas) et je vous enverrai la  sube) kaj mi sendos al vi la unuan
premie`re lec,on et l'adresse de votre  lecionon, kune kun la retadreso de via
correcteur. Veuillez pre'ciser la       propra instruanto. Bonvolu indiki la
langue (Eng/Fra).                       anglan au~ la francan.

Quand ?                                 Kiam ?
Maintenant, si vous le de'sirez.        Nun, se vi volas.

Et alors ?                              Kia ?
De`s la premie`re lec,on vous pourrez   Ekde la unua leciono, vi povos skribi
e'crire en Espe'ranto et a` la fin du   en Esperanto, kaj fininte la kurson, vi
cours comprendre presque n'importe quel povos kompreni preskau~ c^iun
texte (avec un dictionnnaire) et        Esperanto-tekston, (helpe de vortaro),
e'crire des textes simples.             kaj skribi simplajn tekstojn.

J'attends votre re'ponse!               Mi atendas vian pos^taj^on!

salutations / salutojn,
Derk Ederveen                        internet: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
                                               earn:  ederveen@hlsdnl5.bitnet
(pas de re'ponse automatique a` ce message)    uucp: ..!hp4nl!dnlunx!ederveen
(ne uzu au~tomatan respondon al c^i-mesag^o)   decnet:        dnlts::ederveen