From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Rape (what else?)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 15:32:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul18.100908.8742@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>2. A woman should not be forced to resort to physical repulsion in order 
>to convince someone that she does not want sex.

A person should not be forced to resort to physical repulsion in order
to convince someone that s/he does not want sex.

What I find interesting about this whole discussion (not just what
you've written, DC) is that we seem to be saying there are special
rules for sex, where some people believe that no means anything but.

(1) Your s.o. picks you up after work and the two of you are
discussing dinner.  She says, "You feel like Chinese food?"  You say,
"No, I had it for lunch."  She pulls into the parking lot of a Chinese
restaurant and gets out of the car.

(2) You and your s.o. are going to the movies.  You ask him what he
wants to see.  He says, "Anything that doesn't have Bruce Willis in
it."  You get tickets for the latest Bruce Willis film.

These scenes probably sound lame, but the point is, do we do that to
people we're dating and we care about?  Do we totally ignore what
they've requested?  If they say no to Chinese food, do we still insist
on it, saying that we're driven to ignore their requests because we
have such an overwhelming desire for Chinese food?

And yet, during sex, some people still seem to insist that no doesn't
mean no unless there's violence to enforce the no.  No can mean a lot
of things, it can mean: no, I'm not in the mood; no, I usually like to
be touched like that, but I don't want that now; no, my herpes is
acting up; no, we're going too fast; no, I'm too sleepy; no, we need
to talk about contraception and/or safer sex.

To continue doing what you're doing when your partner is saying no is
wrong and stupid to boot.

>However, there are women out there who are very, very afraid of thwarting a
>horny males libido. She may be saying 'no' as a way pf pleading you to stop.
>You continue, and she figures, "Oh God. I asked him to stop. He didn't. Well,
>I'll go through with this because if I try to puch him off, he may get violent,
>beat me, and then rape me anyway."

I think many men don't realize how intimidated some women are by their
physical size and strength.  I was stupid and insensitive enough once
to question a friend who was date-raped about why she hadn't fought
him off.  "I'm 5' tall and I weigh 100 lbs.  He was 6' tall and
weighed 180.  What chance did I have?"

>(Please do not assume that I am saying we should not discourage all types of
>rape. I just feel that the slime who waits in the bushes should get a few
>extra years to grow old and loose his libido before he gets out. This is 
>because, in my mind, the wait-in-the bushes person KNOWS he is raping. However, 
>soem date-rapes are not done by somone who really knows they have broken they
>law. Yes, send them to prison to educate them and others, but give them some
>lighter sentence because they may be less culpable.)

Often the wait-in-the-bushes person says that s/he could tell the
victim wanted sex because of the way s/he dressed, walked, etc.  If a
rapist like that really believes it's consensual sex and not rape,
does that make her/him less culpable?

Date rape is more often not "Well, I said no, but he insisted and I
felt helpless."  The date rapes I've heard and read of involved
victims being pinned down or beaten and raped.