HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor)
Subject: Re: Feminism & Other Issues
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:20:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.145709.19713@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> jjt@aristotle.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jack Tuszynski) writes:
>
>>Isecond the motion.  Any news on the Jaroszewicz killing?  The only Polish 
>>news coming my way, Nowy Dziennik and Donosy, have stopped publishing any 
>>info after few days. I suppose that this is a hot topic of discussions in 
>>Poland right now.
>
.............
>
>My own recolection of Jaroszewicz was as a child.  Jokes about Jaroszewicz
>frequently made fun of his name "Jarosz" which in Polish means vegetarian.
>Supposedly he was turning a whole nation into vegetarians, because during
>his rule, as Prime Minister, there was no meat in the stores.  This guy
>managed to starve a nation of 36,000,000 people.
>
One guy managed to starve 36 M? Try to be more reasonable.

>My comment?  Who is guilty of his torture and murder?  We saw it here on
...
>
>My only hope and deepest sincerest wish is that this is the beginning
>of a trend.  Because lets face it, there are lots of rich communists

In other words, you hope for Poles to start hunting down communists and
put them to death, with a certain amount of torture beforehand? Is this
what you wish Poland to become?
...
>homes full of valuable objects.  Let's hope it becomes like a noose
>around their neck.  It would be poetic justice.
>
Torturing an 82 years old guy is some poetic justice! What sort of poetry
do you read? 
>
>P.S.
>
>The reason that DONOSY isn't saying much about this is that they are
>generally a liberal paper.  Liberal in Poland means those intellectuals
>in the universities who think so highly of Mazowiecki, Kuron, and
>now (beleive it or not) Walesa.  This is the crowd I consider guilty.

Would you torture them too? And what are they guilty of? Standing up to
communists and spending many years in prison, like Kuron for instance?
Or they are guilty of not torturing communists? 

Andrzej Pindor
-- 
Andrzej Pindor
University of Toronto
Computing Services
pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2496 soc.culture.jewish:15633
From: md33+@andrew.cmu.edu (Marek J. Druzdzel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 9 Sep 92 10:43:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.UefYLOS00XciIQRLtO
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

On 8 Sept 1992, James Kahn (kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu) writes:

> In article <Aef9xnW00WB6IqTUUK@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu
> (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
> >I was surprised to see that my fellow Jews following this thread,
> >after being told to go to the history books, did not do so.  The
> >Polish posters are perfectly right in stating that the Polish
> >government (up to the Saxon accession to the throne, in 1697),
> >has practically had *NO ANTISEMITIC RECORD*.  That at a time when
> >both in Western Europe and in Russia, official antisemitism was
> >almost constantly the case.
>
> Didn't the notorious Chelmecki massacre occur in Poland in 1648?  This was
> perhaps the bloodiest attack on Jews in the 1800 years between
> the Bar-Kochba rebellion and the Nazis.  Tens of thousands were killed.
>
> J. Kahn

You are just proving Radu's point (about reading history books).
Bohdan Chmielnicki is a Ukrainian hero. He was a Polish army
officer of Ukrainian descent, who has been risen to nobility
in the Polish kingdom. Dissatisfied with the treatment of himself
and also his compatriots in Ukraine, he defected and organized
one of the bloodiest revolutions in Ukraine directed mainly
against the Poles (landowners in Ukraine were predominantly
Polish at that time).  Many Jews were slaughtered during that
revolution too, which is what, I think, you are referring to.
Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, one of the few palpable
results of Chmielnicki's upraising was that Ukraine moved
into the sphere of influence of the Russian empire (in other
words, in the long run changed its oppressor from Poland
to Russia). Hope this sketchy information will be useful.

Marek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:49:45 CDT

>
>Don't be ridiculus. Some reasons for "anti-Polish resentment" were
>given here. I also understand that a leading figure in the Polish
>Catholic Church, Glemp, is vehemently antisemitic. 
>
So in that case what would you say about Rabbi Weiss and his action
in Auschwitz, later in court ? As violently pro-Polish ?
>
>Personaly, I don't see anything very contructive in the ongoing debate
>about what happened in poland during WW2. I would like to see the
>debate shift to what is happening today, and center on positive
>developments that may heal the scars of the past.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>

I also do not see anything constructive in such a discussion. I would
be as well interested in information about positive developments in that
area. Could you show some positive developments among Jewish community
except flammatory fireworks ( I am not talking about some concilliatory
posts placed by some Jews in s.c.j, I highly regarded them). But what
do you think about prevailing misrepresentation of Polish history
that was even here shown so many times ? Do you have any explanation
where is the source of such misrepresentation ? Do you have examples
of initiatives among Jewish community that would try to straighten
those flammable misrepresentations ? Do you expect that other Poles
listening to wave after wave of flammatory accusations will have
unlimited patience ? Would you ?

A. Mazur

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 02:58:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.231824.12683@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.060031.19658@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au 
>(Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:

>>Yet another example is the actions of American Jews during the WWII.
>>Apparently there was only *ONE* demonstration (N.Y.C.?) 
>>against extermination of Jews of Eastern Europe. 
>>Apparently American Jews were afraid to stick their neck out and being 
>>accused of dragging US into the War.
>>There were close to 3 million Jews in the US during the war.
>>What did they do to protect or help their brethren.
>>Perhaps some of them did a lot and some of them did as much as that simple 
>>peasant shown in "Shoah" (*nothing*). 

>Well said (if true).

Most of it isn't.  

> But I already hear our s.c.j friends answering back 
>that those Jews in the USA during WWII were unaware of the situation 
>because of the Polish anti-semites who supported Germans in keeping 
>the whole issue secret. Or something alike.

No, nothing like that at all.  Methinks you protest too much, and
are just a bit too eager to put words in people's mouths.  

American Jews didn't know about the Holocaust until 1943 because the
general public in the Allied countries didn't know about it until 
then.  This had nothing to do with anti-Semitism; it had far more to do
with the patchy nature of information coming out of Poland, and British
Intelligence's treatment of most of this information as secret.  

Again, it had nothing to do with anti-Semitism; much to do with the
fact that there was a total war on.  I find your attitude appalling.

Roger
>
>Andrzej Zaleski
>


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Sprawy gospodarcze - prywatny i panstwowy
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:38:53 CDT


In article <1992Sep14.135244.11247@newsroom.bsc.no> henryk@bsc.no (Henryk Modzelewski) writes:

>
>Wstepne reakcje byly obiecujace. Juz myslalem, ze poplynie rzeka NAPOJU.
>Niestety. Obiecanki, cacanki, a w rezultacie bryndza.
>
>Suche pozdrowienia,
>H.M.

No bo trzeba te pozdrowienia calkiem wysuszyc, a potem ognia, i ognia,
a zaraz reszta sie oburzy i jakos temat pojdzie.
Mnie na przyklad interesowalaby sprawa umow wolnego handlu. Dlatego, ze
ostatnio Bush obiecal zawrzec takie umowy z Polska, Czechoslowacja
i Wegrami. Wprawdzie w ramach kampanii wyborczej, ale zawsze. Jesli gra
jest warta swieczki, moze warto glosowac na Busha. Dlatego moze ktos
sprobuje nam wyjasnic jakie warunki musi spelniac taka umowa, azeby
ja nazywac umowa o handlu wolnym. Jakie sa glowne zalozenia dotychczas
zawartych przez Stany umow tego typu ? Jakie rezultaty moglyby
byc spodziewane dla Polski ? Temat jak rzeka, byle tylko oliwy dolac.
W zadnym wypadku takiej umowy po Clintonie spodziewac by sie nie
nalezalo.

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:24:08 GMT

In article <88306@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.202425.6034@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
>>
>>Now I get a lesson in grammar. I think you know damn well what I meant so
>>why the grammar lesson? I was not a party to the "Polish Death Camp"
>>controversy, nor am I one of your "s.c.j. net friends", so the analogy 
>>is not valid. Now as for the Polish death camp issue, I personally feel they
>>should be called German death camps on Polish soil, and leave it at that.
>>Are you happy now? Can you now please respond to the content of my post?
>
>I apologize for calling you "a friend from s.c.j.". I appreciate your
>support for the correct name of Death Camps. I basically agree with your
>statement about polish antisemitism, however I can't just accept the word
>>endemic< here. I hope you didn't mean, that anti-s. cannot be found
>in France, Romania or Hungary, but the use of "endemic" here suggested
>just that. Perhaps not for you and few other people, but there are
>netters ,who don't give a damm about details and everything what they
>get are simplifications, cliches etc...That's why I'm trying to be
>careful HOW I write, shouldn't you?

Well if endemic implies exclusivity, I would have to agree that I used
the term incorrectly. Anti-semitism was in no way restricted to Poland,
and in fact was far, far worse in many other places.

But I still think I used endemic correctly :-)
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
green@island.com            that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
                            of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2501 alt.censorship:7412 rec.humor:28215
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,alt.censorship,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Polack joke
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:54:42 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.polish
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug28.192824.24094@lclark.edu> harrison@lclark.edu (Mark Harrison) writes:
|In article <1992Aug28.160731.18103@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
|   marios@ecs.comm.mot.com (mario smarduch) writes:
|>
|>The problem with these polack jokes is stereotyping.

That's what makes them funny.  The stereotype is taken to exaggeration.

Hey, that's a good one.  Bwu ha ha ha.

|I you told jokes about me, I would probably be upset.

I wouldn't.  Then again I haven't heard too many Portuguese jokes.
|I can see your point of view on ethnic jokes, so no flames are in order
|here.  They _would_ be just as funny with ***** inserted instead.  But as

No they wouldn't.  The joke is about the stereotype not about any specific
person.

Just a datapoint, but I probably most of the blonde jokes that I heard, and I
heard a lot of them, were told by blonde women.

|I will say one thing in your favor, these jokes had no business being
|cross-posted to the Polish group.  (Or any ethnic group)  Rec.humor is the
|place for jokes, and anyone cross-posting is just trying to stir up trouble.
 
Hey, anyone that's got a video game named after them can't be all bad.
|
|-- 
|=============================================================================
|Mark Harrison           |  "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
|harrison@sun.lclark.edu |   Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
|              -- Me     |                                    -- Rush


-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira     | Auspex Systems | "Auspex does not share my opinions.  |
| johnf@auspex.com | Santa Clara CA |  So Why am I still working here?"    |
+==========================================================================+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lbs@tkmhp2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: U.S. Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of Accused Nazi Guard
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: Case Western Reserve Univ. Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:27:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.010622.6349@samba.oit.unc.edu> Nigel.Allen@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Nigel Allen) writes:
>Here is  a press release from the U.S. Justice Department.
> Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of Accused Nazi Guard
> To: National Desk
> Contact: U.S. Department of Justice, Public Affairs, 202-514-2007
>
>   WASHINGTON, Sept. 10 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Department of
>Justice announced today it has filed a complaint to revoke the
>citizenship of Anton Bless, a recent resident of Lecanto, Fla., who
>is accused of concealing his service in the SS as a Nazi
>concentration camp guard during World War II.
>   The department said it had been informed by Bless' attorney that
>Bless fled the United States after being told the complaint was to
>be filed and does not plan to return to this country.
>   The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court for the District
>of Columbia by the criminal Division's Office of Special
>Investigations (OSI) and the U.S. Attorney's Office.  The
>department alleges that Bless, 67, a retired machinist, joined the
>Waffen-SS (Armed-SS) in 1942 and served in the SS-Totenkopf
>Sturmbann (SS Death's Head Battalion) in the infamous Auschwitz
>camp system in Nazi-occupied Poland at two of the Auschwitz

 Again those mysterious Nazis... Where did they come from?

What is wrong with saying that explicitly?
>subcamps, including the Buna/Monowitz subcamp.
>   The complaint said Bless' service at the Auschwitz camp system
>as a guard in the Waffen-SS -- an organization adjudged as criminal
>in 1946 by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg,
>Germany -- constituted assistance in the Nazi program of
>persecution based on race, religion, political opinion and national
>origin.
>   Following the end of World War II, the complaint said, Bless
>concealed his service as an SS guard at the Auschwitz camp system
>from U.S. government officials at the following times:
>   1. In 1956, when he successfully entered the United States from
>Salzburg, Austria, under the Refugee Relief Act of 1953; and
>   2. In 1964, when he successfully applied for naturalized U.S.
>citizenship.
>   Neal M. Sher, director of OSI, said concentration and death camp
>guards were "an integral part of the Nazi apparatus of mass
>persecution."
>   Sher said the initiation of proceedings to denaturalize Bless
>was a product of OSI's ongoing efforts to identify and take legal
>action against former participants in Nazi persecution who reside
>in the United States.  To date, 42 Nazi persecutors have been
>stripped of U.S. citizenship as a result of OSI's investigations
>and prosecutions, and 30 persons have been removed from the United
>States.

 Lech Borkowski
LBS@NEPTUNE.PHYS.UFL.EDU

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: krzystek@milton.u.washington.edu (Jerzy Krzystek)
Subject: "Spojrzenia" nr 41 - spis tresci
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:56:57 GMT

______________________________________________________________________
                                            ___
             __  ___  ___    _  ___   ____ |  _|  _   _  _  ___
            / _||   ||   |  | ||   | |_   || |_  | \ | || ||   |
           / /  | | || | |  | || | |   / / |  _| |  \| || || | |
         _/ /   |  _|| | | _| ||   \  / /_ | |_  | |\  || ||   |
        |__/    |_|  |___|| | ||_|\_\|____||___| |_| |_||_||_|_|
                          |___|
_______________________________________________________________________
 
    Piatek, 11.09.1992.                                      nr 41
_______________________________________________________________________
 
W numerze:

    Zbigniew J. Pasek - Historia Polski dzien po dniu - wrzesien
   Dariusz Czarkowski - Eskadra im. Kosciuszki
    Krystyna Lubelska - Gasnaca superstar
        Wlodek Kaplan - Zwiedzajcie Tallinn
       Maciek Cieslak - Dostrzezone - Rozwazone
     Jerzy Piekarczyk - Teksas nad Sanem
          Janusz Mika - Wyzsze studia oglupiaja (z cyklu Oskarzenia i 
                        	Kalumnie

_______________________________________________________________________ 
 
Prenumerata: Jurek Krzystek. Numery archiwalne dostepne przez anonymous
FTP, adres: <tirana.berkeley.edu> (128.32.123.30), directory:
/pub/VARIA/polish/dir_spojrzenia


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: wlodek@forwiss.uni-erlangen.de (Wlodzimierz Kasprzak)
Subject: Neo-nazisci (Re: The camps were GERMAN camps, not Polish)
Organization: FORWISS, Uni Erlangen, Germany
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:00:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.230310.21673@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.174410.26385@nntp.nta.no> stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT) writes:
>>Uwazaj, chlopczyku, Zly Niemiec slyszy.
>
>Gratuluje znajomosci polskiego. Niestety nie moge sie zrewanzowac po
>niemiecku. Coz moge powiedziec, bardzo dobrze, ze slyszy. Powinien to
>sluchac tak dlugo, az zrozumie. Tak to wyglada z zewnatrz.  

Z wewnatrz wyglada to znacznie skomplikowaniej. Niezaleznie od tego, ze 
o swoich gospodarzach zle sie nie powinno wyrazac, obiektywnie moge
jednak powiedziec, ze radykalne opcje polityczne istnieja w calej Europie,
nie tylko w Niemczech.  Czesc obywateli w Rostocku udzielila milczacego
a czesc nawet czynnego poparcia neo-nazistowskim rozrabiakom. Nawet policja
z powodu zaniechania swoich dzialan nie wyglada tu najlepiej.
Z zasady nalezy potepic i ukarac winowajcow. 
Ale: czy pamietacie stosunkowo niedawne zamieszki anty-cyganskie w Mlawie ?
Czy wielu z nas nie wyrazilo swego zrozumienia dla niegodnych, nieludzkich
czynow polskich obywateli ?

Zgadzam sie, ze ruch neo-nazistowski w Niemczech napawa wszystkich znacznie
wieksza groza niz to by bylo w przypadku Polski. Ale moim zdaniem, przyczyna
tego nie lezy glownie w roznicy mentalnosci miedzy narodami, ale w roznicy
potencjalow gospodarczych obu panstw. Wlasnie to stwierdzenie, ze jako
ludzie nie jestesmy inni, gorsi czy lepsi, i uswiadomienie tego faktu
spoleczenstwu pozwoli skuteczniej zwalczyc nacjonalistow (tzn. usunac im
poparcie spoleczne o ktore zabiegaja).

>2. I have some very mixed emotions when listening to a German voice on
>this topic. I wonder what others feel ?
If You assume, that the s.c.p. is available for polish speaking americans and
australians only, then I will maybe agree with your emotions. 
But allowing to discuss the problems of contemporary Poland on the net,
we have to deal with our neighbours Germans. 
I am very glad, that someone from Germany is accessing the s.c.p. and is 
trying to understand the polish viewpoint. This is not a common case.
>
>Andrzej Zaleski
>

Wlodek Kasprzak
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:33:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.164945.20773@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>>Don't be ridiculus. Some reasons for "anti-Polish resentment" were
>>given here. I also understand that a leading figure in the Polish
>>Catholic Church, Glemp, is vehemently antisemitic. 

>So in that case what would you say about Rabbi Weiss and his action
>in Auschwitz, later in court ? As violently pro-Polish ?

a) What justification is this of anything that Glemp has said or done?

b) What would *you* say about Weiss?  Is he indeed an enemy of Poles
everywhere?  I'd say his quarrel is with the Polish Catholic Church
and its policies, and their support from the government.  In general,
I suspect he doesn't care one way or the other about Poland and Poles 
in general.  

This cannot be said about Glemp and Jews.  Many of his statements
confirm the impression that he considers being Jewish itself to be
something bad.

>>Personaly, I don't see anything very contructive in the ongoing debate
>>about what happened in poland during WW2. I would like to see the
>>debate shift to what is happening today, and center on positive
>>developments that may heal the scars of the past.

>>-Danny Keren.

>I also do not see anything constructive in such a discussion. I would
>be as well interested in information about positive developments in that
>area. Could you show some positive developments among Jewish community
>except flammatory fireworks ( I am not talking about some concilliatory
>posts placed by some Jews in s.c.j, I highly regarded them). But what
>do you think about prevailing misrepresentation of Polish history
>that was even here shown so many times ? 

We seem to get that from *everyone.*  "Prevailing" is indeed the word
for it; some ignore this, others that.

>Do you have any explanation
>where is the source of such misrepresentation ? Do you have examples
>of initiatives among Jewish community that would try to straighten
>those flammable misrepresentations ? 

There are plenty of responsible historians, some of the Jewish.  I'm
not aware of 

a) any unitary "Jewish community" to begin with

b) any particular responsibility to correct the historical record,
except by those who state it incorrectly.

>Do you expect that other Poles
>listening to wave after wave of flammatory accusations will have
>unlimited patience ? Would you ?

Well, did those accusations come out of a vacuum?  I don't think
so.  Alas, there are many sources of today's misunderstandings, 
but they are on all sides of the issue; and refusal even to discuss,
to say nothing of actual whitewashing, has been quite noticeable
all around the table.  Accusations will continue; that's unavoidable.
However, stonewalling will only make them worse.

Roger

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:20:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.162749.25948@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>
azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.043131.17345@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu
>(Danny Keren) writes:

>Why do they hate you so much ? Are they crazy or what ?

>>Ah, forget it... I am not going to go into a history lesson, do
>>some serious reading before you post such nonsense. 
>                                           ^^^^^^^^
>I am only asking questions. I told you I am very far from these problems. 

If you are really interested in some theories on this question, I urge you
to read Dennis Prager's book "Why the Jews."  It is his theory on why
antisemitism has existed for so long and why it is so virulent.  You might
even learn something about the history and sociology of the antisemitism
in Poland, too.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish