HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bulgaria
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Morning the crook" has a world class image problem. Why?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 23:15:46 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <Bzo621.1BE@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>Yes I do think so, Mutlu is full of crap - simple as that.

Don't worry "morning the crook" of "dcs.glasgow"; troglodytism does not 
necessarily imply a low cultural level. It'll be a long decade for you.
In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the 
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the
Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be
included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers.
Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours 
red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'

[1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, 
    Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach
    Freiburg 1976), p. 172.

The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in 
the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively 
recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of one 
thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. 
The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In 
addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served 
in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite 
'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.'[4]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137.
[2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, 
    pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle,
    see 'Documents 3 and 4.'
[3] Georg Tessin, 'Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und
    Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,' (Frankfurt am Main
    1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS.
[4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119.

Any comment?
 
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23865 talk.politics.soviet:9895 soc.culture.greek:11732 soc.culture.europe:10684 soc.history:10304 soc.rights.human:4626
From: bkatz@epas.utoronto.ca (Bernard Katz)
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:22:14 GMT

In article <1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article 19859@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>
>>Whatever Arabs left Israel during the '48 War, with very few
>>exceptions, left of their own free will in response to pleas from the
>>invaders to get out of the way to make the destruction of Israel
>>easier.  They voluntarily gave up their homes, despite the pleas of
>>the Jews that they remain, expecting to return in a few days to not
>>only reclaim their homes, but the homes of their dead Jewish
>>neighbors.
>
>Yeah, yeah, we already know you believe that stuff.  You probably
>believe in the tooth fairy too; the evidence is stronger after all.
>It proves nothing, but here's a little quote for you:
>
>   "I don't suggest that we should trample on others' rights, but 
>   one must call a spade a spade: Zionism and rights don't always go
>   hand-in-hand.  The very establishment of this state is an affront
>   to the Arabs' rights.  Arabs lived in Jaffa.  They didn't leave;
>   they were expelled.  We went into the villages and said 'Get out.'
>   And they got out.  Yes, it's important for me and others that 
>   this state be a democratic one, but you still have to consider
>   the difference between ourselves and the {ther countries and
>   remember that democracy is not an end in itself but rather an
>   instrument.  Zionism takes precedence over everything."
{   -- Limor Linyat, member of the Likud Central Committee,
>      Tikkun, Sep/Oct 1991, p14.
>
>You see, practically everyone knows what really happenned in 1948.
>The old mythology, created more for the US market than anything,
>still has its blind adherents though, doesn't it Alan? 
>
>Brendan.

I don't think things are as cut and dry as Brendan supposes. In any
case, here are some additional quotes, this time from informed Arab writers,
that he might find instructive.

	In his memoirs, Khaled al-Azm, Prime Minister of Syria in 1948
and 1949, writes:

	"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees
	to their homes.  But we ourselves encouraged them to leave.  Only
	a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to
	the United Nations to resolve on their return."
		---_Memoirs_. vol. I, pp.386-87, Beruit.

And Abu Mazer, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, writes:

	"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians
	. . . but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and
	leave their homeland . . . ."
		---Article in _Falastin al-Thawra_.  March 1976.

It would seem that it is Brendan who is under the spell of some new myths.

---
	Bernard Katz

	


	
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 24 Dec 92 12:06:25 CST

In article <4735@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
> In article <1992Dec23.044041.19645@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>
>>For the same reason it passed the infamous "Zionism = Racism"
>>resolution-- anti-semitism.
> 
> And for the other reason it passed the infamous "Zionism = Democracy"
> resolution-- anti-Arabism.


	Such a resolution passed only in your nightmare, Anisa. Why
	can't you stick to the facts once in a while?


  
> Anisa
> 	"I didn't program you to make moral judgements"



Noam
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli Nazism?  (Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the J)
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

All this talk about Nazism as equitable/inequitable to Israel's
ruthlessness towards Palestinians never mentioned the fact that
Israel reciprocates in the same manner as the Nazis did during
their own occupation of Europe.  And that is, for every soldier
killed, handfuls of civilians were murdered.  Not only this,
but Israel has improved their methods by expelling hundreds of
human beings.  We know the rest of Israeli's history of requital,
but their justification always reverts back to that old fear of
anti-semitism and labeling thereof.

Anisa

	"We just hope that the Israelis will reciprocate and will
	not continue to create such painful and aggrevating conditions
	on the ground that need to further hostilities and feed the
	cycle of violence.  The occupation is an abnormal, distorting
	condition.  It has to come to an end.  And I think only then
	will you see an end to violence."
						Hanan Ashwari
				Interview on ABC World News/12-16-92
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli racism
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:36:27 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Dan Nabutovsky

>     Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir says the Arabs
>     have no respect for human life and enjoy murder. (UPI
>     12/16/92)

 DN> Lie. He said this about Arab terrorists, not about Arabs. If
 DN> for you Arabs=Arab terrorists, you are Arab hater.

Ho hum. Thus does the credibility of Israeli supporters sink yet
another notch. And again I ask: why do so many Israelis and
emotional Israeli supporters make so many false statements that
are easily refuted from the reputable public record? Why?

And note the incredible abusiveness of your message: you call me
a liar ("yet another wayne's lie").

Don't be surprised if someday after being on the receiving end of
all this verbal abuse that Americans decide to stop sending
Israel $4 billion per year in aid. We have no obligation to be
involved in your affairs whatever. If the relationship is not
based on mutual respect, shared values and interests, and honest
friendship, it will cease to exist.

Here is the exact quote in which Shamir referred to the Arabs,
all Arabs, as murderers who have no respect for human life. Read
the third and fourth paragraphs of the body carefully:

<knotes>

<o>#clip

<des>

     Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir says the Arabs
     have no respect for human life and enjoy murder. (UPI
     12/16/92)

<doctype>newswire article
<newswire>UPI
<date>December 16, 1992

<article>

<title>

FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ACCUSES RABIN GOVERNMENT OF
CODDLING TERRORISTS

<body>

JERUSALEM (DEC. 16) UPI - Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir
accused the new Rabin government Wednesday of coddling
Palestinian terrorists, saying Arabs ''have no respect for human
life....They enjoy each murder.''

The hard-line Likud Party leader was ousted by Yitzhak Rabin in
June elections. He launched his blistering attack on the new
prime minister a day after troops discovered the body of a border
policeman who had been kidnapped and executed by militant
Palestinians from the Muslim fundamentalist Hamas movement.

''We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the
closest of contacts. We know that these people have no respect
for human life,'' Shamir said.

''They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''

</o>
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  the classical logic of the vigilante mind
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23858 soc.rights.human:4625
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 22 Dec 92 03:54:33 GMT
	<EGGERTJ.92Dec18160400@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec22.002443.18839@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1992Dec22.002443.18839@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <EGGERTJ.92Dec18160400@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>   # What do you think happened?  Were the deportees convicted of any
>   # crime?  No.  Thus under the presumption of innocence until proven
>   # guilt, the Israelis just committed a mass deportation of innocent
>   # civilians.
>
>	   They commited a deportation of HAMAS members.  They openly admit
>   that.  They are actually deserving of death.  This is just another
>   case of the weak and wimpy way Israel treats terrorists.  Because they
>   did not execute them, some will commit acts of terrorism resulting in
>   loss of life.

Were the deportees convicted of terrorism?  No.  Were the deportees
proven in a court of law to be members of an outlaw group?  No.
Indeed, according to independent reports, many if not most of the
deportees were _not_ members of Hamas at all.  They may have spoken
out in favor of Hamas, but were not members.  It is doubtful that many
if any of the deportees were Hamas guerillas.

You cannot execute or deport an entire population because of a fear
that some of them may eventually become criminals.

>   # I wonder how many atrocities have been committed in the name of
>   # "security"?  Certainly the Holocaust numbers among them.  The
>   # invasion of Poland is another.
>
>	   You are being ridiculous here.  By following your theory to its
>   logical conclusion, governments should do nothing in the name of
>   security.  Well, that will have all of the effect (actually quite
>   less) of a morality Maginot line.

By hyperbole you can prove anything.  We are both guilty of that at
times, I admit.

>   # The problem here is that it is clear that Israel doesn't know what is
>   # going on.  Mass deportations is a response out of proportion to the
>   # crime.  Guilt by association is assumed.  So the ideas is if you round
>   # up enough of the suspicious characters and send them all packing, no
>   # more crimes will be committed?  Whoever has that idea is the one that
>   # should be committed.
>
>	   Don't be an idiot.  No one is claiming that all of them
>   participated in the murder.  They do, however, belong and acknowledge
>   support for the organization that is proud to have the murderers as
>   members.

By that argument, any Likud member should be deported from Israel
immediately.  Schamir was, after all, a terrorist as well.  Guilt
by association is a tool of totalitarianism, not one of justice.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Jihad is self-defence
Organization: LC
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 10:14:11 GMT

In article <4596@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.152024.19584@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>
>fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>
>>>     Jihad is self defense.
>>
>>War is peace.
>>2*2 is sometimes 3 and sometimes 5.
>
>Sorry but I can't agree with any of you.
>JIHAD means a war in order to enforce Islam on non-Islamic nations ("a
>      holy war").
>War is not a peace , and 2*2=4.

*BULL*  Why don't you study Islam first, then tell us what Jihad
is.   YOUR FEEDING TO A HUNGRY CAT IS JIHAD.  Your guidence  of
lost muslims back to islam is Jihad.  Your defense against agression
is Jihad.  Your war against an occupier is JIhad.  In fact the
first Jihad ever was when Mohammad PBUH along with 113 was attacked 
by the Quraish Army. 

As I understand it, Jihad can be offense, not necessarily defense.
Offense against the forces of a dictator ruling a land of muslims.

The name "Holy War" translates to Arabic to "Alharb Al muqaddasa",
where no such a thing exist or can exist in islam.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
From: jacobsen@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Joel Jacobsen)
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:29:00 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:


>I always thought that ancient Israel was considered the land of milk
>and honey.  It was certainly well settled before the Hebrews got
>there.  (The Hebrews did after all massacre lots of people to get
>their Israel.)  Now it is well known that the 20th century Zionists
>and Israelis have reclaimed a lot of land from the desert and swamps,
>but certainly not all of pre-20th century Palestine was unproductive
>land.
>--
>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Oh what an inocent American. Where are all the Indians today?

( Including all who killed in the not_so_famous massacre for finding the 
  optimal caliber for handgun. Many Indian was shot to death in a 'test'
  that brought the .45 ACP caliber. You can check it out..)

        Joel
From: bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill))
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: american opinion
Date: 29 Dec 92 02:28:44 GMT
Organization: Washington University in Saint Louis, MO USA
Distribution: talk
NNTP-Posting-Host: bcserv.wustl.edu

hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:

>I am not, as you so eloquently propose, "emotionally tangled up with a
>foreign country". Even though I am not an Israeli citizen, Israel is
>no more foreign to me than my family or my religion - nor should it be
>to any Jew in this world.

This sounds like some sort of wishful thinking.  Hardly credible (as
to your sweeping generalization for all Jews in the world, not for
yourself.) 

>When was the last time you had the privilege of visiting Israel. It is
>most certainly a democratic Western country. It has all the features
>of democracy that we have in the U.S. Perhaps the fact that it is an
>all Jewish country bothers you? 

An extremely large population routinely denied suffrage, land ownership,
and subject to discriminatory curfews is one of the features of 
democracy here?  Perhaps thirty years ago this was somewhat still
true, but now it's very inaccurate.  And perhaps you should clue
yourself in that Israel is not an "all Jewish country."  Your
leanings are way out in front, aren't they?


>I have not noticed this paricular phenomenon. Perhaps I have not
>noticed it the most a year or so ago when Israel patiently stood by
>while Iraqi launched Scud missiles ravaged her cities.

Perhaps you should look at pictures from Iraq or Sarajevo, and then
give me a definition of "ravaged".  Israel sat tight, and now
expects to be paid very handsomely for it. (or did - there is a
question of whether having the loan guarantees now dooms the
peace process more than any other act).

-- 
William M. Eldridge			bill@bcserv.wustl.edu
Biochemistry Department Box 8231	(314) 362-3436
Washington Univ. School of Medicine	(314) 362-7183 (fax)
660 S. Euclid, St. Louis, MO 63110
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Secular state
Date: 22 Dec 92 03:19:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.002744.15934@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> barrak@tramp.Colorado.EDU (HADI MOHAMMED F) writes:

>Ron, I am puzzled with your responses to this idea (a secular state). Are
>you against it in general or you just believe that it cannot be applied 
>to the Arab Israeli conflict? If you meant the latter then I agree with 
>you since a lot of people will oppose it in both camps either because it 
>contradicts religios beleifs or, in the case of the jews, it might  
>be a prelude to revenge/persecution when they become a ruled minority by 
>an Arab majority.

	I am strongly opposed to mixing religion and politics.
	But a secular Palestine is unworkable
	for the reasons you mention.  Even if it 
	were to become a reality, the Jews therein would always have
	to fear an Islamic revolution as in Iran (1979) and
	subsequent oppression.  A two-state solution is far more
	realistic.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24593 soc.culture.greek:12011
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 16:49:27 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <11538.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

> I guess the Mis-Information Liaison Service had to close when it was
>realised that for Skopjie "No news is the only good news".

Foolishness and fantasy and noise. History shows that within the 
last 170 years, Greeks played that game twice: They used Istanbul 
Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to instigate the Morea rebellion that 
resulted in the massacres of the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox 
Patriarch Constantine V invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to 
invade the Ottoman Empire 'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock 
from Ottoman rule. 

Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros
         Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu,
         Calif., 1978).

p. 161.

In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks]
sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.'
The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they
knew how: through a war of religious extermination."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
Date: Sunday, 27 December 1992 09:46:04 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Your plural is slipping!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: world

In <1483500313@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)  wrote:
# I wish Israel would emulate Western democratic countries rather than
# kenguro-courts of military dictatorships.

  First-person singular from a "Center for Policy Research?"
  I think your cover is blown, friend.  Give it up.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Soldiers Kill 8-Yr Old Girl 
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 00:17:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.173645.14218@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>What is the Israeli government doing to its young
>people by making them do the dirty work in a cruel and prolonged

Israelis are surviving in a cruel neighborhood infamous for it's
characteristic ability to kill millions of it's own people for wild
military and religious "leaders", most of whom are personally master
mass-murderers.

>Who were these soldiers protecting? ... only themselves. 

They already know it.  When the going got tough in Beirut, the US
Marines high-tailed it out of there and flew thousands of miles away.
They knew that they weren't protecting themselves and their loved
ones.

Israelis, on the other hand, can only fly at 600 mph for a few minutes
before they've crossed Israel completely and are moving over the land
of yet another hostile neighboring state.  These same Israelis who
have suffered the murderous and barbaric terrorism of the Arabs
surrounding them since long before they took control of the WB and G
in 1967 know full well that they and their own loved ones are at daily
risk.  Those same soldiers who attended Toledano's funeral, who lived
in gas-masks when the "Leader of the Free World", George Bush, forbade
them from defending themselves, know very well who they are
protecting.  They are protecting themselves because no one else will
do it.

When people can be as overwhelmingly attacked as the Israelis have
time and again and still receive so little world sympathy, how do you
think this affects Israelis who struggle simply to survive?  Now you
know. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast