HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scythe@hardy.u.washington.edu (The Grim Reaper)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:59:07 GMT

In article <Bz9rux.E94@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Brad Green) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.050336.20784@athena.cs.uga.edu> milliken@athena.cs.uga.edu (Brewmeister) writes:
>>>Cat, the Republican Party, contrary to your misconception, is not entirely
>>>composed of Pat Robertson's followers (or Pat Buchanan's, for that matter.)
>>No, not entirely.  Just mostly. 
>
>Why do you libs spend so much time complaining about the Republican Party 
>having the likes of Pat and Pat, when the Democratic Party has the likes
>of the gay rights movement, NOW, NARL, Jesse Jackson (whose speech at the
>Democratic convention was every bit as off base as either Pat's), etc.
>
>The fact is, both parties have fringe groups, you just want to talk about 
>ours.
No.  It's that the Republican ultra-religious have seized control of the
party.  The people who used to be called Republican moderates are now in the
minority.  On the other hand, people like Jesse Jackson are still (thankfully)
in the minority in the Democratic party.  And who says gay rights is a fringe
idea?  Isn't 10% of Americans an accepted population?

                         --The Grim Reaper
                           (SCYTHE@U.WASHINGTON.EDU)
Xref: sparky alt.current-events.somalia:662 soc.culture.african:7144 soc.culture.arabic:5743
From: pstonge@TrentU.CA (cmdr keener)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Reply-To: pstonge@TrentU.CA
Organization: Trent University, Peterborough
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:09:22 GMT

In article <Bz65G7.Fvw@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins) writes:
>dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina) writes:
>
>>By the way, can someone come up with a good substitute for the :) ?
>>I hate using it--it reminds me of those damn Have a nice day buttons.
>
>Sure.  Just add a verb in parentheses:  "Clinton will go down in
>history as one of our greatest presidents.  (wink)"

	Well, it might beat having the former head of the CIA running 
things behind the scenes!  Of course we trust him <wink>  It might also beat
having someone well-charicatured (and whom everyone loves to hound over his 
spelling mistakes) take over the presidency if Bush were incapacitated again.

8-)    <- another for your collection
=8-)   <- punk!
[:]-)  <- diver....

	Anybody have their own list of their favorites??


>
>|===========================================================================|
>|Don Wiggins, German-Irish-American    | Success is getting what you want.  |
>| & Lead Scout for the Baby Boomers    | Happiness is wanting what you get. |
>|Internet: wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu |     -- Brother Dave Gardner        |
>|===========================================================================|

(TTAGGG)n for now... Pete
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: It's Blood for Oil, again. (yeah right...)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:07:05 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1geg0hINNbms@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <Bz4D4t.JHE@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com writes:
>
>>     The relief mission is over, and it failed miserably I might add.
>
>  It has in fact barely gotten started.  No one but the most starry-eyed
>expected 1800 marines to pacify the whole country.

    If the relief mission (food aid) was successful, there would be no
    need for military intervention.

>
>>     What we have is a military intervention in Somalian internal affairs
>>     in order to re-establish the colonial rule there.  Boutros Ghali calls
>>     it "transitional authority" and, most recently, "UN protectorate".
>
>  The first part is very accurate, but whose colony is Somalia going to be?

    Whoever gets the mandate from the UN will govern Somalia.  I do not
    think that will be the U.S., though.
..
>
>  Somalia, as a nation-state, has all but ceased to exist.  No one (native) 
>group has enough power to do much more than control thier immediate area.

    Somalia, as a nation state, is a creation of the West.  In reality,
    the country is controlled by six major clans.  If we let the chips
    fall where they may, who knows how many sovereign states we will
    end up with.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money."                             Other opinions are mine.
 Deep Throat                                    Disclaimer: 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
From: dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Reply-To: dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:11:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.000626.25331@ida.liu.se> e91petmo@odalix.ida.liu.se (Peter /\/\odin) writes:
>dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina) writes:
>
>> ...Christmas (that's a God-fearing Christian holiday...
>
>No, Christmas has nothing to do with religion any more. It's about
>overdecorating, buying a lot of stuff, watching specials on TV,
>etc etc etc. Am I being cynical? Go figure!
>

No, I wouldn't say you're being cynical, at least not as cynical as
Diogenes was when he coined the term...in any case, I think that
although retail promotions have mainstreamed the Christmas rituals, a
lot of what we do nevertheless has that feel-guilty, do-unto-others
flavor which I associate with Christianity.  The TV specials revolve
around sappy morals (even the best one, The Grinch Stole Xmas,) we buy
stuff to show affection for our family/friends/neighbors/relatives,
some give money to the Salvation Army--through all of it is retained,
for the most part, a lot of the Christian ethic, unless of course you
think people see buying gifts as the inconvenient prerequisite to
getting them :).  But yes, little about Christmas these days relates
to the birth of Christ; I just wanted to point out Cat's borderline
hypocrisy.

By the way, can someone come up with a good substitute for the :) ?
I hate using it--it reminds me of those damn Have a nice day buttons.




David
dnm9@columbia.edu
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: pugh@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (Tom Pugh)
Subject: Re: The "inside scoop" on Somalia
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:14:32 GMT

	I agree....I think that the United States is a great place
(as far as places to live go), but I also think we have much more than
we really deserve.  According to an article I read, the GNP per capita in
Somalia is about $119 (or was a couple of years ago), whereas ours is about
$20,000.  Something is seriously wrong with that.  People in foreign countries
have as much right to life, liberty, and property that we do, if not more.
Sending food and military to help the effort is the least we can do...


Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: wkmpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (W. Keith McManus)
Subject: Re: CNN / All Reporters
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:46:42 GMT

In article <8919@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>, scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C
Woods) wrote:

> The problem with that idea is that some yammerhead would claim that
> 
>      "The MILITARY is manipluating the press again".
> 
> Besides, it does the press good to look stupid and moronic everyonce and
> a while.  Keeps them from growing little (false) halos.
> 

They are manipulating each other!

It doesn't do anyone any good to look stupid. Making mistakes and
correcting
them  is another matter, all together.

W. Keith McManus
=================================================
Rochester Institute of Technology
Applied Photography Department - Photojournalism
Rochester, New York

=================================================
InterNet: wkmpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
     AOL: KeithRIT
=================================================
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:08:31 GMT
	<1992Dec7.004917.23223@vpnet.chi.il.us> <Byzzpr.2M5@ucunix.san.uc.edu>
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu's message of 9 Dec 92 15:15:26 GMT


In article <Byzzpr.2M5@ucunix.san.uc.edu> jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Erik Reid Jones) writes:

   In article <1992Dec7.004917.23223@vpnet.chi.il.us> mox@vpnet.chi.il.us (William Moxley) writes:
   >In article <1fs4hnINN4g0@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
   >
   >>They also have the vote.   Scary, no?
   >
   >Yes it was quite scary this past election.  I watched my friends cast
   >their votes without even a clue as to what was going on.  
   >
   >		William Moxley
   >		mox@vpnet.chi.il.us
   >

   Yes, it is scary.  The average American voter doesn't have a 
   clue in the world.  It's scary when democracy gets out of
   hand.  Now I by no means advocate this, but it really does
   give hefty weight towards the argument of an intellectual
   aristocracy, where only those with at least a Bachelor's
   Degree can vote...

   Erik Jones

When I read this, I found myself thinking of some of the drivel
I've seen posted from .edu sites.  Those people are in a situation
where they can basically skate easy and get that bachelor's degree,
if they so choose.  A lot of people do work hard and genuinely 
educate themselves while at college, but the "gentleman's C" is, 
unfortunately, not a thing of the past.  If you truly want to 
put control in the hands of the smart folks, you'll need to use
some different criteria than attaining a bachelor's degree.  

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.bush,alt.president.clinton
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Somalia
From: judy@technology.com (Judy McMillin)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:52:56 GMT
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

>	Just an aside -- Considering that so many of the Somolians
	seem to have guns, it is a credit to their society that we
	haven't heard stories about some of these plump relief
	workers going missing. . . .
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Somalia
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 02:37:16 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac

In article <1992Dec11.161014.6434@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> awells@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Andrew V. Wells) writes:

>In article <1992Dec11.143819.29799@cbnews.cb.att.com>, jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp) writes:

>> Now those checkpoint guards have done it -- they've shot and killed a
>> truckload of Somalis for having bad brakes! The idiots! Don't they know
>> killing people makes them vulnerable to the glare of the media?

>So, are you being sarcastic here, or are you really saying that it's
>OK to kill people as long as no one sees it? 

The situation was quite interesting, in that the occupants of the vehicle
were innocent civilians. Unfortunately, the brakes on their vehicle failed,
and they could not stop at the roadblock manned by the French, who fired on
them for precisely that reason.

It is all well and good to make sarcastic remarks from a perceived High
Moral Ground, but as with most political and social situations, nothing is
quite as simple as the naysayers would have us believe.

Place yourself in the shoes of the roadblock commander, just for a moment,
and ask yourself what you would have done had a large truck begun to crash
through your barrier without warning. Is it a threat? Bombs, armed men,
battering ram, etc.? How many seconds do you have to make a decision here?
One, two?

To suggest that these folks were shot "for having bad brakes" is to insult
the average reader, for while that was apparently the _cause_ of the
vehicle's failure to stop, it most certainly cannot be said to be the cause
for the troops firing upon it. They had neither the time nor the means to
determine whether or not the vehicle had faulty brakes - they had been told
to hold their checkpoint, perhaps to search vehicles for weapons, or protect
access to critical areas or buildings, and had little choice - I suspect
they didn't have time to even consider just dropping everything and running
- which isn't among their military options anyway.

What, one wonders, would our sarcastic friend have had them do?



-- 
The Old Frog's Almanac - Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island
     (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) SCO XENIX 2.3.2 GT 
 Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA. Just south of Tupperware Central...  
                 Information is power - get connected
Xref: sparky alt.current-events.somalia:666 alt.politics.org.un:198 alt.president.clinton:1190 alt.politics.bush:14739 alt.activism:19697 misc.activism.progressive:9445
From: dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.bush,alt.activism,misc.activism.progressive
Subject: A pacifist's call for conditional support for US action in Somalia
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:22:45 GMT
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Organization: VTT
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu

I am a pacifist US citizen who has been appalled at US military
interventions around the world since I became politically aware in the 
1960s.  I know of the terrible things that my government has done and
all the ways they try to sugar coat their reasons for taking their
actions.  So in no way am i disposed to favor US military actions.

However, i find the US intervention in Somalia to be different.  There
are hundreds of thousands of people starving to death because small
groups of armed men block the provision of food to them (after stealing
their livestock and preventing their farming during a drought).  I
support the protection of food convoys to the starving people.  

Why did Bush do this?  I would guess to look good in the history books.

Do i have some complaints about the implementation of this program?
Certainly.  I would want the US troops to put on the blue helmets and be
under UN, not US control.  I greatly oppose the US demanding and the UN
Security Council granting the right to use "any means necessary."

I would support the replacement of the US troops by troops under UN
control as soon as possible.  When the food convoys are travelling 
regularly in an undisturbed fashion and UN troops come in to guard
them, the US should get out.  The US does not have the responsibility 
or right to install a government of its choosing.  

It is true that Somalia has a strategic location at the entrance to the
Red Sea, the sea route to/from Europe.  It is well located near Saudi
Arabia and other oil producing states.  It has former US (previously
Soviet) air and naval bases which could be easily restored.  I would
oppose the US rebuilding these bases or attempting to achieve ANY
permanent military presence.  

The publicly announced objectives and reasons for the action DO make
sense and are appropriate.  I support them while opposing any hidden
agenda for a permanent US presence in the area.  I would urge all others
who have a fully justified opposition to US military actions to take
similar positions.  

By opposing this because of what might later occur, you loose strength.
Support this action while linking your support to a reasoned opposition
to expansion to the activities you fear and you will greatly gain
credibility for your positions.

I understand and sympathise with those posters who oppose this action
for what may be behind it or what it may be converted into (although not
with those who oppose it because they don't want to spend money to feed
people).  But i ask them to look a little further and to conditionally
support this for what it officially is, while opposing
any expansion.

-- 
doug foxvog     
dfo@tko.vtt.fi
From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:42:19 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: redondo.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec18.171453.9192@news.columbia.edu>, egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:
> In article <85540@ut-emx.uucp> wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester) writes:
> >In article <1giamlINN1b9@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:

[deleted]

> >SHHHHHH!!!!! Don't break the progressive's hearts by telling them that 
> >Vietnam is *not* proof that the People(tm) can stand alone against a world
> >superpower!! It's Politically Incorrect to imply that!  :)
> 
> Er, the Vietnamese had superpower support (and I can't really think of
> a successful insurgency that didn't have a Great Power patron), more
> from the Soviet Union than China.  Ho Chi Minh's regime was extremely
> good at soliciting help.

I'm confused.  Isn't that what Patrick was saying?

-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: rocko@ireland.ssc.gov (Rick O'Leary)
Subject: Re: Missed point was(CNN...)
Reply-To: rocko@ireland.ssc.gov (Rick O'Leary)
Organization: 8-Track Museum of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:50:51 GMT

In article <Bz3pu5.8An@encore.com>, csmith@wizard.Berkeley.EDU (Cheryl Smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec11.134730.11280@sunova.ssc.gov>,
|> rocko@ireland.ssc.gov (Rick O'Leary) writes:
|> > In article <1g5iegINN7t4@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs.yale.edu
|> (Norman Yarvin) writes:
|> > |> idjohnst@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Ian Johnston) writes:
|> > |> > I am amazed at the restraint the seals showed when confronted
|> > |> >by the reporters. I would have been more upset.
|> > |> 
|> > |> Those guys hit the beach with the idea that at any moment they
|> might be shot
|> > |> at.  Compared to being shot at, even being interviewed by a reporter is
|> > |> relatively mild.
|> > |> 
|> > |> --
|> > |> Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
|> > 
|> > 
|> > Hey Norm,
|> > 
|> > 	I do believe you have missed the point.  Let me point it out to you.
|> > The interviewers GREATLY increased the odds of _being_ shot at AND being hit.
|> > Do you think this is o.k. Norm?  Have you ever been shot at Norm?  Yale Norm?
|> 
|> Have you ever watched your son on TV yelling "get down, get down" as
|> shots are being fired??  Well I did last night on CNN. A day with
|> Echo Company was a news clip done by a reporter following that regiment
|> of Marines around for a day.  In the middle of the clip I see my son
|> full facial view talking with other Marines, then you here gunfire and
|> he's yelling for everone to get down.  End of clip. For all those who
|> think there is no danger think again and put yourselves in the postition
|> of some us parents whose kids are over there trying to feed starving
|> people. Right now all I want is him and all the others to home ALIVE.
|> 
|> > How many Yalies have shot at you?  If you were thinking, each time you walked
|> > the campus, that you could be shot at, how happy would you be to have
|> reporters
|> > holding lights on you at night ???????
|> > 
|> > Did you get the point Norm?
|> > 
|> > 				Rocko
|> 

Cheryl,

My heart goes out to you.  I trust you were adding to my message and not mis-
understanding me.  I am furious with the media.  And I respect the military and
the families of the military.  It is not a matter of like the media-hate the
media......  WE HAVE AMERICAN LOVED ONES IN THE LINE OF FIRE.  I DON'T CARE
ABOUT WHAT TOM, TED, DAN AND CNN WANT!  No story will _"EVER"_ be important
enough to risk our proud men and women's lives.
						PERIOD.
							NEVER.
								EVER!


Rocko
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Date: 17 Dec 1992 17:01:41 -0500
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: cathy.na.cs.yale.edu

egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:
>>But it is little easier than importing them from a western country.
>
>No.  Western liberal democracies require hard work and patience.
>Institutions most be formed and given legitimacy, and this is the work
>of generations, not of a band of insurgents.  With Leninism, you have
>the blueprint right there.  No assembly required.

Yes, you are right about this.  It is thoroughly easier to destroy a country
than to build it up.  But there are still cases where Western institutions
have been imported successfully.  For instance in Turkey after the first
world war.  Or in Japan during the late nineteenth century.  Today these
countries are not liberal democracies, but they are not despotisms either.
Turkey, even when under military leadership, is better governed than Syria.
One does not have to import everything at once.  For instance the leaders of
Singapore actively dislike democracy, yet have imported (or retained from
the colonial days) plenty of other western institutions.

>What would you do then, if you were a nationalist and wanted to see
>Western influences out of your country?

Too vague a question.


--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
 "Zigzag, n. To move forward uncertainly, from side to side, as one carrying
  the white man's burden." -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_