From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexism: Defined
Date: 11 Sep 92 05:19:50 GMT
	<mxrnslk.payner@netcom.com> <MUFFY.92Sep8211733@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<_ssnhrh.payner@netcom.com>
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In-reply-to: payner@netcom.com's message of Wed, 09 Sep 92 15:48:11 GMT

In article <_ssnhrh.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.92Sep8211733@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>In article <mxrnslk.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>If the effects of feminism are different from the stated goals of
>the "movement", then there is indeed a major malfunction. But it is
>exactly as valid to look at the "effects" of feminism as it is to
>look at the "effects" of sexism, there is no difference.

There is definitely a difference.  Feminism is attempting to change
things, and it is not always clear how to change things in the way that
you want to.  Sexism wants to keep things the same and therefore doesn't
make mistakes in its effects.  However, I still believe (see below) that
you are focusing on one set of "effects" of feminism to the exclusion of
all others.  It is like you looking at my life and pointing to the time
I broke a pile of dishes when I was six and the time I broke a glass
last week and saying "oh, you've spent your whole life breaking things."
Then I say that I have had many other effects, but you deny them.

>By dealing with what I see and experience, I am "focusing rather narrowly"?
>Thanx for the news, now what do I do, therapy?

Well, if you really want to criticize feminism, it seems like you need
information *outside* of your personal experience.  How do you know that
you are getting a balanced picture?  From the sounds of it, in fact, you
are not.

>If any of these things had been accomplished, directly or indirectly,
>I would not feel as I do. What I see being pushed again and again
>I do not support.

Like what?  What are you *looking* at?  Let's look around for a minute.
Here on the net, I've seen feminists who are against makeup, some for
and some against pornography, for better education of women,
particularly in math and science, against sexual harrassment, for women
deciding what to do with their own lives (re: careers, children, etc.).
What do you disagree with in these ideas?  (Well, the porn one is easy,
I know, since there are feminists on both sides.)

>>Sure, the media *loves* people like Andrea Dworkin, so you hear a lot
>>about the effects that she has had, but that doesn't mean that those are
>>by any means the major effects or efforts of feminism.
>She has had major effects, you cannot just claim media hype.

No, I am not claiming "media hype."  What I am saying is that the news
that feminists have gradually made things better for women is not
"news".  Someone saying "all intercourse is rape" (or whatever) is
"news," so that's what you hear about.

>But I also do not see NOW or any feminst groups disowning
>Dworkin or making statements that they do not support Dworkin and her
>goals. Do you?

Well, I don't really *CARE* if they disown her, since they didn't OWN
her in the first place.  I do not believe that any other feminist speaks
for me, so I do not feel the need to make sure that I disagree with all
the thousands of people who will make statements that I disagree with.
I will disagree when it comes up, but I think that going around
*looking* for people to disagree with would be a waste of time that
could be much better spent actually working on problems.  And yes, all
but one of the feminists I know thinks that Dworkin's ideas are quite
ridiculous and they are very much against them.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
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