HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: saeed@watson.ibm.com (Saeed Jaffer)
Subject: Re: Growing into one's Indianness
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:28:01 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Although this has been somewhat hashed thru already on the group, I'd like to
talk about it, so we can at least get away from all the random flammage that
stemmed from the Babri masjid incident.

Ram says:

 > This is my first posting though I have been enjoying this group since
 > it's inception.

Cool.  Welcome.

 > Is there a progressive realization of one's Indianness as one grows older?

This is what definitely happened to me.  Before I moved to Karachi with my
family in '85, I was your run-of-the-mill 14-year-old American kid.  I was not
familiar at all with South Asian culture, except for maybe religion (Islam). 
More than that, I basically rejected the culture.  I could have been more
familiar with it, but I didn't want to.

Living in Pakistan didn't convert me completely over, but a few years after I
came back to the States, I began to go through a `rebirth' of some sorts where
I suddenly became much more interested in the culture I came from and
experienced while living in Pakistan.  My heritage became important and I
learned to balance both my American identity and love for the States with my
cultural ties to South Asia.

Sorry to bore y'all with that, but I was wondering.  Has anyone gone the other
direction?  Started out mega-desi and then became more amrikan?  or
dissatisfied with what the values and ideas they were brought up with (be
they associated with America or South Asia)?   I find this true of many of my
cousins who emmigrated to the States from Pakistan in the past 10 years.  They
seem to have in some ways turned away from Pakistan and become very
American.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
--saeed jaffer        		The word cope and the word change
saeed@watson.ibm.com  		are directly opposite and not the same
saeed@athena.mit.edu  					--Speech
----------------------------------------------------------------------					
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:43:55 GMT

=====================================
 susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko) writes:
>I'm curious about the importance of the Babri-Masjid chaos  to 
>Indian-Americans. I imagine that most Indian-Americans have
>some extended family in India, and are somewhat anxious about
>them, and are more familiar with Indian history and ethnic/religious
>disputes than, say, Somalian history. But I also imagine that
>many of you have friends with Irish, East European or South
>American ancestry, so perhaps you also learn a lot about the
>civil wars in those places. So do the incidents in Ayodhya 
>mean more to you than those in any of the other trouble spots
>of the world?

 No, it doesn't mean more to me than say Bosnia or Germany or Chile.....
 Having had affairs with many non II/IA women, I have learnt a lot
 about rest of the world. My ex-SO was from spain. And it was interesting
 and disturbing to learn about internal issues in Spain. So goes for
 other european nations, south america......

 This newsgroup, IMHO, should keep its focus. Its not talk.something
 Would you prefer it otherwise? :)

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:10:19 GMT

In <1992Dec15.150818.14552@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:

>> i would also like to point out that religious suppression is not the same as
>> atheism...atheism is a choice. many atheists (or agnostics) become so, after
>> following one or more religions, and becoming disillusioned by them.  

>I agree- religious suppression is not the same as atheism. I also agree
>how some people become atheists. 

wow...two agreements in one post. :-).

>What I said is that - "Some of the worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists".
>Out of all rioteers/bloodhounds around the globe at different times, some have
>been proclaimed atheists - Stalin, Deng Xiao Ping, Mao Tse-Tung are some 
>prominent examples. They incited or directed efforts to suppress religious
>freedom, put people those who disobeyed - into dark dungeons, exiles, through
>tortures and murders in thousands of cases. Their property was looted and
>converted to government property only to be distributed to those serving
>in the government. These government officials were the people who were
>directing suppression and torture. Atheism was the state policy. These people
>were atheists. 

hmmmm. i suppose i agree with you there. in that, when people get caught up
in the fervor of their beliefs (or lack of), and try to force people to
follow them, something is seriously wrong. probably that is what (to some
extent) makes the pc movement (and liberalism) an anachronism <flame-bait>. 

-- 
Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com
Cirrus Logic Inc.		|		(510)-226-2100 X3737 
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: who're you calling an american? :) (was Re: Thanksgiving)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:16:55 GMT
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian

In article <1992Dec14.173822.15035@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
> 
> P.S. - From the sounds of it, this newsgroups sounds like it's for
>        Indians born or raised in the US. I hope so. That other group,
>        soc.culture.indian is a synonym for soc.culture.iit.grads.
> 

No this group is for all people of asian-indian origin, not just those
people of indian origin who were born or raised in US. Don't pump up
your ego.

>        Now don't you IIT grads get riled up. :)

Don't unnecessarily provoke them :)


BTW, that other group. soc.culture.indian, IMHO, should be renamed to
soc.culture.indian.politics :)

Alok
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:23:41 GMT

=====================================
 samaddar@siemens.com writes:
>tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:
>
>> Politics is just the means. Get to the cause. The final cause in "ayodhya
>> madness" lies with religion - because, nothing more than religion was
>> ever used to brew the fervor to destroy/kill. And all that continues is in
>
>Why were the two world wars fought? Why did USA go to Vietnam? Why Iran-Iraq
>war was fought? Why did Stalin kill 20 million in his gulags? Was religion
>involved?

 Sumitro, we are not discoursing on world history. The causes to these 
 questions were indirectly mentioned in my post. Please reread it if 
 you feel like. We are, to keep our focus, discussing the "ayodhya" stuff.

>The problem in India is not religion per se. 
>Sumitro

 Then, what is it? And what makes you believe/think so - please let us
 know your reasons. Thank you.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: Re: how to prevent Ayodhya like fiascos
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell Comp. Sci. Dept.
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:23:20 GMT


>>>>> "Gopal" == Gopal Agrawal <gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu> writes:
Gopal> NNTP-Posting-Host: neuron.tamu.edu

Gopal> In article <MSANGHVI.92Dec8175055@cs.ulowell.edu> msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu writes:
>increase the peace ... destroy the VHP-BJP-RSS-Shiv Sena.
>
>
Gopal> IMO, all communal forces must be destroyed. That includes, apart from
Gopal> RSS/VHP, organizations such as the ISS (Islamic Sevak Sangh) as well.
Gopal> Lets not be biased in our resolve to curb communal forces.

I was not trying to be biased ... I agree with you completely that all
communal forces need to be destroyed regardless of whhhat faith thhey belong
to. In that article I hhad been talking about the BJP-VP-RSS-SS combine and so
thoughht it appropriate to mention their names only. thanks for pointing it
out to me.


--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi        |  UMass-Lowell Dept. of Computer Science
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu      |  SnailNet: 754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: ...!harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |            Lowell, MA 01850-1804
BITNET: msanghvi%cs.ulowell.edu@{cunyvm.cuny, mitvma.mit, talcott.harvard}.edu

The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach
their children to speak it.
		-- G. B. Shaw
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: Diatribes of.............
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:44:29 GMT

==================================
 To:
>>  First we need to discuss is "what is meant by uniform civil code/law?"
>>  "What are laws, and what are they needed for?"
>>  When you say - the solution is *one* single civil law for all Indians (or
>>  replace this by your favorite nation) - I would first seek to know: What

 dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> The laws are what is the modern judiciary - functions of the state. The
> Constitution provides separate laws for Muslims. (I know that these laws
> are few (?) in number, but, this definitely a discontent between the Hindus
 =========================
> and Muslims.)There are many other historical reasons, but, this is the major
> one concern. The main reason that there will be different set of laws for
> Muslims, *is* definitely a concern for most Hindus. 

 So, now you admit that the constitutionally provided laws are few in number.
 But, your question mark suggests that you don't know for sure, how many/which
 laws these are. 

 Nevertheless, you proceed to assert that this is the MAJOR concern. Well, 
 such shifting foundations are not rational grounds for asserting such
 conclusions, IMO. 

 You mention the Shahbano case. Is islamic divorce/alimony 
 a privilege that most hindu seek? If no, then which privileges
 are you talking of.

>   You may be an Islamic apologist
>   but I find that your questions most bizarre and humiliating. 

 How can you assert "you may be...."
 Facts? or Emotions?
 You find questions bizarre? and humiliating? 
 Cool down, please. Thankyouverymuch. 

>
>  Anyone can ask questions, like a child, as we all know that some one from
>  a distance can look wise, but, the moment he/ she opens his/ her mouth the
>  fool comes out. (A Sanksrit sloka of Chanakya - minister in Vikramaditya's
>  court.)

 What is a fool, dear chanakya? 
 How can one "look" wise? from a distance? what is wisdom?
 What are questions? 

 Well, I do enjoy questions/problems/challenges. They are very interesting 
 companions. My biggest grudge against all religions (christian/islam/hindu...)
 is their emphatic discouragement of questioning/probing/curiosity. To me,
 all science, all technology, all human achievements begin with a small, 
 humble question. The curiosity for the unknown, the mysterious is all that
 matters. This debate on ayodhya etc. is not an attempt to flame anybody,
 as I wrote in my first post on this subject. It is merely another attempt
 to gather questions...........
 
>        - deb chatterjee
>  P.S: I will *not* respond to any more replies - as it is a waste of time !
 
 well, we are all getting tired, aren't we? :)
 different souls, different attitudes..........
 take it easy.
 
T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: The problem with India (Mosque incident)
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:22:14 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:

> Politics is just the means. Get to the cause. The final cause in "ayodhya
> madness" lies with religion - because, nothing more than religion was
> ever used to brew the fervor to destroy/kill. And all that continues is in

Why were the two world wars fought? Why did USA go to Vietnam? Why Iran-Iraq
war was fought? Why did Stalin kill 20 million in his gulags? Was religion
involved?

The problem in India is not religion per se. A group of people with one
identity (some hindus) believe that another group of people with another
identity (some muslims) wronged them sometimes back in history. They want
to undo that "wrong" as if that is possible. The identities of these groups
have been defined primarily by religion, but this hasn't been the case
always in history. Linguistic and cultural identities (especially in
Europe) have been cause of a lot of killing as well.

Sumitro
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: Ravi Kiran <ballams@pine.circa.ufl.edu>
Subject: Re: how to prevent Ayodhya like fiascos
Organization: India
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.0
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 22:38:47 GMT

Lining up and shooting any body is not going
to solve problems of this nature.  IMHO, it seems
like religion is the root cause of all this.  I guess 
destroying all the religions of the world will atleast
prevent problems of this sort to happen in future. 
Religion as it is used now does more harm than good.
So it should be the case that the intellectuals should
find a way to remedy this world of religion.  The concept 
of God is no longer a helpful one, it seems and just like a 
rotten limb is amputated,  the concept of religion 
should be completely removed.  Then nations will 
not be segregated because of religion, people will
not use religion for discrimination, people will not
fight bloody wars in the name of religion and who 
knows they may even stop fighting over other things 
too.  

YES, just like untouchability was made against law
in India, so should religion be made against law in 
the world.  

Comments welcome, 

Ravi Kiran.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: if anyone out there sees this ....
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell Comp. Sci. Dept.
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:04:35 GMT


could ya send a reply by mail and let me know what my signature looked like.
wish they had a group for testing stuff...

--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi        |  UMass-Lowell Dept. of Computer Science
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu      |  SnailNet: 754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: ...!harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |            Lowell, MA 01850-1804
BITNET: msanghvi%cs.ulowell.edu@{cunyvm.cuny, mitvma.mit, talcott.harvard}.edu

Arithmetic is being able to count up to twenty without taking off your
shoes.
		-- Mickey Mouse
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:18:44 GMT

> hmmm...i think that mehul had meant the comment as a joke; at least
> i took it that way with that added "smiley" at the end.  anyway, he
> can answer for himself on that point.
> 

Sorry, it seems like in my emotional fervor I didn't notice the :)
However my reply still goes, albeit with a :).

> i am curious as to your comment on atheism in china as well as the
> old soviet union, alok.  i know that relgious ideas were suppressed
> and prohibited in the former soviet union, but the "worst rioteers
> or bloodhounds"?  personally, i think the christian crusaders of the
> middle ages were worse than these "atheists", and they weren't the
> worst in world history!  do you have a reference on this?

I was refering to the events which took place at the time of communist
revolutions both in 1919 (Bolshevik revolution) in Russia and the 
events of 1949 in China (when Mao Tse-Tung took power). I am also refering to
the mass suppression and murders in Stalins era in USSR and the suppression
of Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet by the Chinese. China and old USSR have 
been declared atheist states. 

During both these revolutions and successive regimes in these countries,
religious sihrines were burnt or destroyed, thousands of
people brutally murdered or put into dark dungeons to starve and die
and yet another hundreds of thousands put to 'slavery', their money looted,
their property taken over etc.

These communists claimed the same: atheism is good for homo-sapiens,
religion or God is the root of all evil or bloodshed. 

Also look at the Tiannaman Square events - yet another brutal suppression
of youngsters looking for greater freedom.

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi)
Subject: boston based ACUAI party
Reply-To: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu
Organization: UMass-Lowell Comp. Sci. Dept.
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:23:38 GMT



hi folks!

    I am making the post on behalf of Preeti as she is unable to connect to
the Net. Preeti had volunteered her place as the venue for a Boston based
acuai jamboree sometime either this weekend or next weekend. What we'd like to
know is how many people are interested in it and what dates/times are
convenient. Send all replies by email to me at msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu


thanks,


      Mehul


increase the peace 
--
===============================================================================
Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi        |  UMass-Lowell Dept. of Computer Science
Inet: msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu      |  SnailNet: 754 Aiken St. #11
UUCP: ...!harvard!ulowell!msanghvi |            Lowell, MA 01850-1804
BITNET: msanghvi%cs.ulowell.edu@{cunyvm.cuny, mitvma.mit, talcott.harvard}.edu

Line Printer paper is strongest at the perforations.
From: susanc@rice.edu (susan chacko)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: So why not just say "hi?"
Date: 13 Dec 92 22:58:40 GMT
Distribution: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: Rice University

bhattach@tazboy.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya) writes:


>I was just walking back from lunch and passed yet another II/IA who avoided eye contact
>and didn't say "hi."  Is it my imagination, or do some Indian people develop an intense
>interest in the nearest sidewalk/wall when another Indian passes?

>I mean, I do take showers regularly.  Why do these people intentionally avoid acknowledging
>me?  Any of you out there have similar experiences?

>Bidushi

It isn't embarrasment or rudeness, you know. In India, people don't
commonly greet people they don't know, and one doesn't even keep
greeting the people one knows. For example, in my college dorm, I
wouldn't say 'Hi' or 'Good morning' to my neighbours who were
close friends when I saw them in the morning; we'd just carry on 
from where we left off when we last met each other. The only times
we'd specifically greet each other was after long separations. And 
saying hello to unknown people is considered forward. (unless you're
in a train, where everyone becomes very friendly for the duration of
the journey :-))
Obviously the social customs are different in the US, and so most
Indians start saying hello as the Americans do. But with other
Indians, we both know that we wouldn't be engaging in these
rituals in India, so it feels rather artificial to be doing it
here. Sort of like going to Japan, learning a formal bow, and
then bowing formally to everyone you met back in the US. 
I expect most Indian-Americans do say hi when they pass each
other, but Indians would probably assume that IAs were Indian
and thus wouldn't feel the need for what would be considered a
superficial affectation in India, and a common courtesy here.

Now if we all wore hats, we could tip our hats without moving
a facial muscle, thus finding the exact middle ground between
polite formality and complete detachment :-).

Susan.
--
----
susanc@helix.nih.gov
Bldg 2, Rm 316, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md.
From: tenkasir@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.Edu (Ram Tenkasir)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Growing into one's Indianness
Date: 13 Dec 1992 07:45:54 GMT
Organization: WSOM CSG, CWRU, Cleve., OH, 44106, USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: universe.som.cwru.edu


Hi all,

This is my first posting though I have been enjoying this group since
it's inception. Good work guys and gals, keep it up. Though I was not
born in this country ( came here at a relatively early age) I can 
empathize with the experiences of all you native desis :)
The question I want ponder is , 'Is there a progressive realization of
one's Indianness as one grows older?".. From my personal experience (
also have discussed this with other IAs and they seem to concur) the 
initial years of growing up (junior and senior high) is one of 
overidentification with being totally American--- A polarization of 
who you are and a denial of much of what is Indian-- a period of
making fun of the indian accents of those many uncles and aunties.. vhat,
vhere, ad infinitum..... To one of coming to college, maturing,
realizing you are indian to the eyes of the onlooker (whether you were
born here of fresh of the boat) and start appreciating the value of
your indianness. In my case it was developing active friendships  with
others of an Indian background, getting into Indian philosophy,
wanting to know more about the cultural, religious, and historical
aspects of my own heritage, and being able to appreciate the life 
experiences of those uncles and aunties beyond the accents.. May be 
it is a question of anchoring my own identity.. I don't know


Regards

Ram
From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:42:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In <1g8h3tINN3bk@menudo.uh.edu> mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (Purna Murthy) writes:

>alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) wrote:
>>Yet another idiotic solution on your part. Solution to avoid religious
>>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
>>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheists. Some of the
>>worst rioteers or bloodhounds are atheists. You only have to look at 
>>some of them in China and the old Soviet Union.

>i am curious as to your comment on atheism in china as well as the
>old soviet union, alok.  i know that relgious ideas were suppressed
>and prohibited in the former soviet union, but the "worst rioteers
>or bloodhounds"?  personally, i think the christian crusaders of the
>middle ages were worse than these "atheists", and they weren't the
>worst in world history!  do you have a reference on this?

i would also like to point out that religious suppression is not the same as
atheism...atheism is a choice. many atheists (or agnostics) become so, after
following one or more religions, and becoming disillusioned by them.  

"the worst rioters or bloodhounds" are not *atheists* but tyrants who
suppress choice (and freedom) in religion (and other things, of course...but
the issue is religion). that was what happened in china or the old soviet.  

i would also like to see a reference that *atheists* caused the worst
bloodshed in history.
-- 
Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com
Cirrus Logic Inc.		|		(510)-226-2100 X3737 
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.