From: kniaz@cat4.cs.wisc.edu (Joel Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: China never as prosperous as Europe?
Keywords: predestination
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:57:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: daffy.1992Apr16.155706.7788
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.

In article <15APR199210093852@sigma.tamu.edu> mds4101@sigma.tamu.edu (SZETO, MARVIN DEAN) writes:
>
>Dwight,
>
>Why don't you answer any of my posts?  Are you (the great intellectual from 
>prestigious Stanford) afraid to debate me (a lowly Aggie from Texas)?   Perhaps
>you are being kind and considerate to a "virulent" person who identifies with
>Chinese culture?  *NOT!*

	I have noticed the same problem, Marvin.  Apparently Underdog
	has a flaky News-feed.  Well,  being the nice and considerate 
	guy I am, I will repost my last articles about Underdog, just
	for him...

	Anyone who saw these already, just type "n"...

______________________
Subject: Re: Will America fall?   teeter, teeter 

In article <1992Apr12.005212.6475@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

>At no point in Chinese history has China ever been as prosperous
>and well off as the USA or Western Europe.  Even if you reach back
>3000 years like the way many China-philes like to do, you will find
>that China was far worse than modern Western society.  There was
>no penicillin, no antibiotics, no Bill of Rights, no human decency
>(but that's always been true, hasn't it?), etc. in China.

	Right, unlike the Europeans who were performing human 
	sacrifice and running around naked at the time...

>Leninism is an inferior economic (& political) concept as far as
>generating wealth is concerned.  But interestingly, China before
>Leninism was far worse than China after Leninism.  Today, the Chinese
>are better educated and live longer than at any time in their entire
>history before the exposure to Western society (and Leninism).
>
>That, I suppose, is the strange part.  Leninism comes from an
>inferior realm of Western society, yet compared to what the Chinese
>had before Leninism, Leninism is quite good.  In other words,
>the best that the Chinese could muster without Western (or Japanese)
>influence was worse than the worst in Western (or Japanese) society.

	Apparently political-economic  theory is not Underdog's
	strong suit.    The Chinese brand of  Communism differs     
	completely from any Soviet model. Calling it 'Leninism' 
	is giving a certain European more credit than he is due...

>I wonder if the barbaric inferiority of Chinese culture has anything
>to do with this dismal record of Chinese accomplishments (or
>lack thereof).

	Once again, this is a completely circular argument.  

	Underdog, why don't you wake up, look around, and
	perhaps go out and meet some new people.  The fact 
	is that any significant number of counter-examples 
	to your argument will entirely invalidate it. I can
	guarantee that these counter-examples exist in abundance.
	In fact,  I know a few attending Stanford at this time.

	You must remember that we are not talking about dead history
	here, but the value of a certain group of human beings, many
	of whom share all of the idiosyncrasies, faults, and qualities
	of those in our own cultures.  There are simply too many intelligent,
	nice, sincere, loving and considerate people who, _yes_, 'identify
	STRONGLY with Chinese culture.'   As a point of logic, the existence
	of these people, who are neither apologists nor in any way indifferent
	to their culture, would tend to invalidate your theory.  While there 
	are those Chinese who other Chinese would also be quick to censure, 
	they represent merely the demographic equivalent of that same 
	population of jerks present in our own societies.  

	I am INFORMING you that these good people exist, as I have met many,
	and am willing to introduce to you as many as you would be willing 
	to meet.

	Why do I seem to so vehemently defend Chinese culture?  Is it 
	because I,  and others who identify with _Jewish_ culture are
	simply unable to keep our long noses out of others' business?
	Perhaps I am simply a nigger-loving chinkophilic kike?   YOUR
	CONDEMNATION OF THIS ENTIRE CULTURE IS  MERELY A VERY THINLY-
	VEILED EXPRESSION OF THIS VERY BRAND OF RACISM.
	
	It is not the culture that you are attacking.   In effect,  it is 
	those actual human beings, of no lesser intellect or judgement than 
	ourselves, who merely wish to retain their cultural heritage for the 
	benefit of their children and for the world.

	Finally, Underdog, if you try to even suggest that I argue against
	you because I  'identify with Chinese culture,' then I will surely 
	draw you into the proverbial 'Lake of Fire.'  
								Sincerely,
								Joel Kniaz

     ______________________________________________________________________
Subject: China never as prosperous as Europe? SO WHAT??!!

In article <1992Apr13.193403.10890@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

>I meant that "At no point in Chinese history has China ever been 
>as prosperous and well off as the [MODERN = 20th century] USA
>or Western Europe".  

	Look, you guys.  This is an argument  over a completely 
	ridiculous and meaningless point.   Whether or not China
	has ever been as 'prosperous' as the U.S. or Western 
	Europe is irrelevent to any argument in light of the fact
	that NO national, religious, cultural, or regional group 
	has been so successful (using Underdog's criteria). The 
	point is that in order to use this argument to condemn 
	Chinese culture, it must follow that ALL OTHER NON-
	WESTERN EUROPEAN CULTURES ARE ALSO INFERIOR.  

	Does Underdog really wish to condemn every civilization 
	from the Zulus to the Mayans, from the Greeks to the 
	Egyptians?  I don't think he would be so foolish as to
	do this on the net.  That kind of rabid euro-centrism
	would find few supporters on any news group.

>Mr. Kemnitz is doing what basically many people
>who identify with Chinese culture like to do.  

	Who are these people?  They compose a homogenous racial
	group with very similar demographic characteristics  to
	western europeans.  That means that there are members
	of this group teaching in our schools, working in hospitals,
	driving trucks, and doing meritorious research all over the
	world.  Is Underdog saying that these professors, doctors,
	and scientists are not intelligent enough to have made an 
	informed decision?  Or are they simply so evil and corrupt
	that they persist knowingly in their adherence to the tenets
	of this culture with full knowledge of its `barbarity.'  

	Does Underdog really believe that he has such superiority 
	over all of these people?   I have met many egotists, but
	none so patronizing and arrogant as this.   At least many
	racist admit freely to their core beliefs of purity and
	superiority.

>But I say, let f(t, s) = relative figure of accomplishment, where
>"t" is an element of (start of time, 1992] and "s" is an element of 
.
. [more irrelevencies deleted]
.
>Even today, human decency in Chinese
>society is still nonexistent for the most part.

	Again, when Underdog speaks of `Chinese society,' it is not
	of a geographically restricted entity.  He speaks of a not 
	insignificant portion of this country's citizens.  What 
	disgusts me most  of all is his willingness  condemn
	citizens of his own country while touting the superiority
	of those of another.

	P.s. Feel free to respond anytime, Mr. Joe.
     ______________________________________________________________________
    / "Lo, Though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death,       /
    \    I fear not!                                        ______________\
    /  For I am the biggest son-of-a-bitch in the valley." / My favorite  /
    \______________________________________________________\ expression...\
    / Joel Kniaz   kniaz@garfield.cs.wisc.edu  kniaz@jomby /      __i     /
    \______________________________________________________\_yiLballe(Mu)_\