From: igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich)
Subject: Re: Can white men jump?
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<Bw1rt9.83z@cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:33:30 GMT

In article <Bw1rt9.83z@cs.columbia.edu> ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner) writes:

>  Once again, I believe that there's a certain balance of abilities in a
>  person -- physically strong are usually not too bright, and smartest
>  guys I know don't exactly look like Stallone...  I guess you get my point.


   >>  ...
   >>  >A little side point. Many participants of this group are Jewish (and
   >>  >this paragraph is addressed to them). I'll take a risk to guess that
   >>  >most of them, even though aren't religious themselves, pay due respect
   >>  >to their ancestor's religion and even observe high holidays. Don't you
   >>  >think that the whole concept of "chosen people" is racist?
   >>      "Chosen people" is more of a religious concept than a racial/ethnic
   >>      one.  Jews happen to be of all races/colours, and you could become 
   >>      one (observe the Jewish holidays, even emigrate to Israel:), if you
   >>      _really_ wanted to.
   >
   >"Chosen people" is _primarily_ an ethnic/racial issue. You are Jewish in
   >teh firs place according to your birth, and only then - according to
   >your beliefs. You can become Jewish being of any race, but you can't
   >give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
   >read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
   >"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
   >Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the reasons

>   Sorry, Igor, that is not true.  First of all there are no "Goim who
>  become a part of a Jewish house."  A jewish soul can be born among the
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  non-Jews and then return to formal "Jewishness."  Yes, it is sometimes
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, this, strictly speaking, is the question of whether or not one
accepts the idea of reincarnation, and not everybody does. One might
argue that the phrase (in Russian translation of the Tora - sorry, I
don't read Hebrew) "da istrebits'a dusha ta is naroda svoego",
implying the severest punishment one can get (worse than being killed
by people, - being killed by the G-d Himself, meaning - permanently,
forever) means that that soul can never be born again. And that would
imply that, once Jewish, a soul can only be reborn amongst Jews.
Then again, there _are_ laws stated in teh Deuteronomy about how the
ousider, a _non-Jew_ can _become_ a Jew! It doesn't say that the house
should accept this person because this person is in fact a Jew, just
born among the goim!

>  hard to distinguish between such a Jewish soul and a non-Jew who is
>  for some reason attracted to Judaism.  That's why it is EXTREMELY hard
>  to convert according to Orthodox rules -- they are afraid to make a
>  truly disastrous mistake of considering a non-Jew to be a "real" Jew.
>  Also, a "ger" (convert) has always been considered to be included in
>  the covenant of Abraham. In fact, when "ger" is called to read the
>  weekly chapter of Torah he is called as "<someone> ben Abraham" or son
>  of Abraham.

Then, again, I wonder: how it is possible to know for sure that the
person posesses a "real" Jewish soul for Orthodox Jews? Do they just
feel convinced after a person was attending the local sinagogue for
a sufficient period of time, or something? And what is that terrible
disaster Orthodox Jews are afraid of, do you think?

>  No knowledgeable Orthodox, let alone Hasidic Jew, would treat a ger as
>  a "second class" person.  Never.  Actually in the daily prayer there's
>  a special "directive" to love converts, on top of the one concerning
>  people of Israel in general.

	Really? Well, your friends in Israel must have not written to
you for a really long time, then... Did you ever here about how
"religious" Jews treat Russian olim there?
And I put "religious" in quotes because I don't think they are doing
the right thing (IMHO) and their reasoning , I believe, is religious.

>  As far as the concept of Jews being a "chosen people" is concerned, if
>  you define racism as claiming that one ethnic group is better than
>  another, then it has nothing to do with racism.  Jews as chosen people
>  are not "better" or "worse" than the others.  They just have a
					         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  different task in this world.  Try to think of this as a horizontal,
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  and not a vertical distinction.  Are men better than women ?

	Oh, I don't argue with that! In fact, as Tevie put it, "I know
we are the chosen people, but can't You sometimes choose someone
else?" But in fact, Jews say they are closer to G-d than other people,
and I don't argue with that. I am just asking: isn't being closer to
G-d somehow better than being farther from Him? And doesn't it make
Jews better than other people, at least in this sence?

   >--Igor
(remaining myself - Igor)

>>			   -- Mike

--Igor