HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: re: The Society's Paradox
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:20:39 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

Bertram posts:
>The more I listen to the on-going debate over authenticity vs. *fantasy*
>(which is, I think, a better way of describing the distinction than saying
>"authenticity vs. fun") the more I'm struck by the fundamental paradox of

Oh, well said!!  I've been bothered by the description of the debate 
as "authenticity vs. fun" for quite some time, as have a good number 
of others, I suspect.  (You can identify us by finding posts where 
people argue that authenticity _is_ fun.)  Another good catchphrase 
comes from the Rialto -- thanks, Bertram.

And, BTW, your description of the Paradox of the SCA seems to match 
quite well with what I perceive and remember having been told.  To 
deal with the paradox, as I see it we have several choices:

1.  Do nothing.  We will continue to have internal conflict over what 
we are, and will be perceived by outsiders as pretty weird.  I 
wouldn't expect our acceptance by academics interested in the study of 
the Middle Ages and Renaissance to change, i.e. generally they may 
think we're OK at getting people interested in history, but have no 
respect for our research (for good reason, too).

2.  Decide we're a fantasy organization.  This will resolve all the 
authenticity vs. fantasy arguments, as authenticity will no longer be 
a goal worth seeking.  It will require admitting to the IRS we aren't 
an educational organization, and will lose our tax exempt status.  I 
would expect us to attract and keep more fringe loonies, and lose the 
people interested in history.

3.  Decide we really are what we say we are.  Enforce rules about garb 
at events -- no more bunny fur bikinis, unless you've got 
documentation for it.  In authenticity vs. fantasy arguments, the one 
with the best documentation wins.  (This doesn't mean there won't be 
disagreements -- academics can be *really* viscious.)  We'll lose the
people who are here for the beer and not much else.  We may lose 
others, depending on how vigorously we enforce practice of what we 
learn.  I'd expect that if the SCA survived the transition, we'd 
eventually be considered a good source of historical research.

I don't actually like any of these possibilities.  Is there anything 
else?

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: Re: Children in the SCA
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:36:48 GMT

	This is an interesting question. I've only been to one SCA event, and
the kids I saw at that were pretty well-behaved. In NERO, which is a little
like the SCA but less formal and has magic and stuff, children are often
brought to weekend events if their parents do not wish to leave them behind.
The children are not allowed to participate in game until the age of
fourteen; children between the ages of about nine and fourteen may, if they
wish, be "pages", meaning they can carry messages and generally hang around,
but not actually do anything. Children who are too small to protest, i.e.
infants, are sometimes considered "props" (their parents' character has a
child, so the baby plays the role of the parent's character's kid). There
is always some sort of communal babysitting taking place, and I am
wondering if that would be possible at SCA events. I'm not sure how it
would be organized, but maybe if some people--say, one adult for every
three or four kids--wanted to take turns looking after each others' kids
so that the parents could enjoy the event?
	I think that kids add a lot to the authenticity, and the fun, of an
event, if they are old enough to understand proper behaviour. Not necessarily
old enough to behave the way an SCA adult would, i.e. in-period, in-persona,
etc., but old enough to understand things like not running out onto a
tourney field or dance floor, or not starting to talk in the middle of a
speech or Bardic performance, or not playing with things that don't belong
to them. Once they understand simple courtesy, I think they make an
event a little more interesting. Just my tuppence worth.
					Roisin
SCA: Roisin Ruadh ni Riordain
.Net: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: I am still bewildered
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:57:23
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<1992Nov8.051216.26641@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au's message of Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:12:16 GMT

William greets all.

Tim O Neill describes his experiences of the SCA and European
living history groups. This reminds me that there was an SCA
group in Britain many years ago, possibly even before Drachenwald
was created. This group was called "The Barony of the Far Isles",
and it separated from the SCA because the British soon realized
that their ideas of how to do the middle ages were very different
from ours.

I last heard a report about them some 5 years ago; apparently,
they were still alive, and using the SCA rules for fighting, 
and SCAdians who had visited them told us of a level of courtesy
and chivalry, and forsoothly speaking, that made them envious.

Does anyone have more information about this group?

William
From: del@babel.DIALix.oz.au (D Elson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: out-of-period dancing) 
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 13:09:48 GMT
Organization: 


In article <2AF4C370.4228@telly.on.ca> doug@telly.on.ca writes:

  > Out of Period Dances have no place at SCA events ONLY, IMHO,
  > when the event is advertised as such.  The SCA is an organization
  > dedicated to serving the needs of all members not just a small
  > select group of Authenticity Police dedicated to keeping 
  > those who have other interests from having their own version of fun.
  >
  > I was at an event last night where we danced at least 10 dances, 
  > Two way out of period, 4 from Playford, Hole in the Wall, Trenchmore,
  > A Pavane and an Alemond. (Excuse Spelling)  People had fun!!

(but seriously, this time...).

I agree, HOWEVER, there appears to be a significant misconception about
what dances are period and what dances are not period.  While there
is a place for these dances in the SCA, people should recognise that
just because they are done at an SCA event, they should not assume
that they are period.  IMHO, the only real danger is that people who
do some of the "way out of period" dances at their first event leave
that event with the impression that these dances are period.

Not wanting to start a history lesson at the start or end of each dance
session, I think that SCA dancers should take a serious look at some
of the period dances and see where they can substitute these into their
repertoire for some of the non-period dances that are being done, and
take a little time to explain to people that the non-period dances that
they do are non-period.

I'm not denying that Hole in the Wall is fun, but then so is a Saltarello
(woe the lack of period descriptions), a Piva, or the Officer's Bransle,
or even some of the simpler Italian dances.
 
  > I do not deny the Period Dance Enthusiasts their fun.  Lets not have them
  > deny me mine.

I may be a "Period Dance Enthusiast", but please drop the "Authenticity
Police" tag..

Del
--
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
D Elson                            |  del@DIALix.oz.au del@adied.oz.au
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: "period" wristwatches
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:50:40 GMT

Donnallain did write:

       In doing some research on a pet project of mine I ran across a
   number of references to portable sundials. Accurate to within 10-15
   minutes, even for the very small ones. The simplest was a 1.5 inch
   diameter ring with a pinhole in one side, a string from the top, and a
   scale (marked with the months) on the inside showing the time. Hold it
   up, turn it until the dot of light hits the right monthly scale, and
   there you have the time. There are also the various card sundials
   working on similar principles: line up a sight with the sun, and a
   hanging cord (with a bead that can be slipped to the proper scale to
   reflect the month) pointing out the time of day. I'm tempted to make up
   a few and market them at next Pennsic. Of course, this presupposes that
   the sun is out... moondials are much more complicated to use.

What an incredibly cool idea!  Can you give us more information?  Plans?
(if it wouldn't cut into your proposed business too much.)  References?
Dates and places?  (Are they period for Charles V Spain?)

In particular, how does the scale on the ring work?  You line the dot up on
the month, and the string points to the time?

			----Simon
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Maythen's Accomplishment
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:35:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.BxCznA.36p
Organization: Open Communications Forum



I, too, would like to see more experimentation in tourneys, both to allow other
skills to be considered, and to attempt to bring more of our tourneys in line
with medieval models.

I've been toying with the idea of volunteering for the BoD committee on this
subject, but I can't think of a single qualification I have beyond a big mouth
and an opinionated nature....  :)

I might add that our shire's two attempts at peri-oid tourneys have been very
well-attended by fighters, and not all also-rans by any means. I think this
shows that the chivalry is more open to experiments than we give them credit
for...so long as they don't fear being left entirely out!


Moreach NicMhaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: mundane name?
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:51:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC


	I need to find a mundane name for Baroness Katherine Jade of Bayley
of Lancaster, NY  for postal reasons :)
			-Ilaine

-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Wool is the easiest fiber to spin, it has scales on
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	the surface which interlock, making a very strong 
                   | 	thread. It practically spins itself. 
ilaine@panix.com   |    I can see by your expression that you don't believe me.
From: sinister@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic War\Fair
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:42:32 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

The Following is a forwarded message.....
=================================================================
Date: 06 Nov 1992 12:02:11 +0100
From: Mats Broman <mabr@sweden.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Pennsic War\Fair (was Eastrealm Crown)
To: sinister@ac.dal.ca (sinister@ac.dal.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

	I cannot write directly to the newsgroup. As far as I know who
	have been to Pennsic 5 out of the last 7 Pennsic (though I live
	in Sweden), it's a question of words.
	The BIG difference is psychological...this years Pennsic (XXI)
	was called the "Great Tournament". I have never been to a more
	relaxed and fun Pennsic yet.

	Having been at Pennsic XX (as Prince of Drachenwald) I was VERY
	pleased with this. Pennsic XX, was IMHO, one of the worst ones I
	have fought in yet.
	Active marshalling on the field killing more people than actual
	blows at times, etc, etc.. Winning beeing more important than having
	a good time out there.

	I think people are basically just afraid of changes...why I do not
	know. What we are doing at Pennsic is more like a 12th century tour-
	nament than any "real" war. Pennsic is more than just fighting, it
	is a meetingplace for friends all over the Known World.

	If you feel like it, you are welcome to forward this to Rialto...!!!

--
HP   : Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman			mabr@sweden.hp.com
SCA  : Morgan deGrey
APD-I: Shade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put
	together in a random fashion, to create eternity...

	[R] Shade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp.
From: jprod@sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Renn Faire overlap
Date: 5 Nov 92 01:15:09 GMT
Reply-To: jprod@sagepub.com
Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA


  Aryk says, referring to non-SCA re-creation groups of our period: "There
  is, however, a very uneasy relationship with the SCA, and while some of
  the groups have heavy overlap with the SCA there is tremendous concern
  about "poaching" on the SCA's membership, both from the SCA and from
  re-creation groups." And, later, he says: "[One] possibility is that
  there will be a small exodus from the SCA to re-creation groups."

  Although I personally have not participated _officially_ in the Southern
  California Rennaissance Faire, I hang around with a number of people
  who do officially participate every year (I live with one who used to,
  but quit from exhaustion). My impression of Faire Folk is that they
  don't have a problem with the SCA. The SCA doesn't have a problem with
  them either, as far as I can tell. I know plenty of people who do both
  Faire and the SCA and enjoy both. I would think that a certain kind of
  authenticity nut might leave the SCA for Faire, as Faire offers the 
  strict rules this kind of nut would crave, but most SCA people truly
  interested in authenticity wouldn't leave for Faire because a number of
  Faire rules dealing with authenticity are not at all authentic.

  I have never heard anyone express a concern about "poaching". By this, do
  you mean that someone in the SCA attracted to Faire might not pay 
  membership fees if he or she started working Faire (might not. Faire _is_
  rather expensive.)?

  Charles says: "There is no reason that the SCA shouldn't peacefully
  co-exist with [other re-creation] groups."

  I agree, but some of those other groups don't. In Grey Niche (Memphis),
  the SCA helped out at the small Rennaissance Fair put on by a local
  private college every year until someone got antsy about combat demos.
  Suddenly we were no longer welcome at their Renn Fair as participants
  in any area, as we were seen as a dangerous group, one which promoted
  violence. Pity.

  What about Markland and other groups? Does anyone have personal experience
  dealing with the SCA's relationship to them?

                          Sister Kate

-- 
         Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc.
                2455 Teller Road, Newbury Park, CA 91320
              voice: (805) 499-0721    fax: (805) 499-0871
                    via Internet: jprod@sagepub.com
From: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Society's Paradox
Summary: All of the Above
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 18:32:39 PST
Reply-To: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us



Instead of requiring perfection in any one of these choices, why not
practice tolerance and allow all to coexist (more or less)?  I guess
that is choice 1 (at least I hope so).

If impressing academics is your goal, play their game (which is just 
as arbitrary and weird as ours).  Likewise the fantasy crowd.

Actually, the IRS doesn't give a rip as long as we follow _their_ rules.
Just because it's called an "educational group" doesn't mean it has to
be what you think of as an educational group.  After all, "member"
doesn't mean what you would think a member is.

Cheers
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Dates for Daffodil Tourney and Estrella
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 18:55:37 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta


Can someone post the information regarding the
Estrella War and the Daffodil Toourney (Victoria, BC)
to the Rialto?

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Shire Awards
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:29:55 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <720364943.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>,
Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
|>
|>    Justinian Clarus wrote:
|> DY> We ask . . .  Why did not several of the groups band together to make a 
|> DY> barony al la Septentria in Ealdormere or Flaming Gryphon in Ohio?
|>
|>    They didn't say, and we didn't ask. The groups in question are about an
|>    hour apart by road; perhaps that was perceived as being too great a

When Septentria started as a barony, it was the whole province of
Ontario; about eight road hours from Starleaf Gate to Skraeling Althing.
Everyone has their own perceptions of distance, of course.
                    
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
"I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to
say it"
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: attitudes or traditions
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:15:26 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Nancy Lebovitz wrote:

>Doing things because they're traditional, refusing to change because
>of an intellectual rule, and not being interested in historical
>authenticity all sound pretty period to me.
 
I realize that you are being humorous, but:

You are making a logical error. If the SCA was here to imitate the
medieval ways of dealing with life, then we could simply close down
all the medieval recreation we are doing. We could all wear suits
and carry briefcases, use cellular phones, and drive BMWs -- and still
imitate medieval attitudes perfectly.

This is not the goal of the SCA. Improvement in the SCA must mean
that we come closer to the society we are attempting to re-create.

William
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: guth@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G.Guth)
Subject: Re: Filk vs. Recreation (was Re: out-of-period dancing)
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:59:53 GMT

On the question for dances "longwayes for as many as will",

First, to be really priggish about the question, Playford's first edition
was printed in 1651, thus making just outside of period, whether you
consider the upper limit to be 1600 or 1650.  Since most of the SCA seems
to accept 1600 as the upper limit, that still puts Playford 50 years out
of period (and look at how much *our* dances have changed in 10 years, let
alone 50).  Quibbling about a year or two isn't really worth it, I agree
(Caroso's Nobilita' di Dame was published in 1600, and Negri in 1602)

However, it is important to note that in none of our period sources from
the 16th century, including Caroso, Negri and Arbeau.  Arbeau, in fact, 
never explicitly mentions that a basse dance or pavan should be danced by
a long line of couples.  I might be more willing to accept such a longways
dance if there were any precedents at all in the period repertoire.

Now some of the dances in Playford are fairly close to the same sort of
dance found in other period sources.  Parsons Farewell is (I have heard) 
fairly close to Negri's Bizzarria d'Amore.  In this case, if we do wish
to have Playford in our repertoire on the grounds that he was writing
soon enough after period that some of his dances must date from the 16th
century, then it is on this basis that they should be selected, I believe.

Incidentally, in response to questions I have seen here recently, I believe
(although I am not sure) that Female Sailor comes from Raoul-Auger Feuillet,
who published "Chore'ographie" in 1700.

Il Ballarino was published in facsimile by Broude Brothers (New York) in 1967.
Negri's "Gratie d'Amore" was also published in facsimile by Broude Brothers.
Try looking in University libraries.  I tracked down copies of both in the
Music Faculty library at the University of Toronto, as well as Nobilita' and
Arbeau (but I have my own copies of those now!  :)  )

Richard Britnell of Salisbury.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: out-of-period dancing
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:49:03 GMT

Robyyan writeth:

   A rule of thumb previously mentioned -- if the dance is for a longways 
   set, it doesn't look period to many of us who have studied dance.  

*Any* longways set, or "longways for as many as will"?  I've always assumed
the longways sets of three couples were okay (e.g. Geloxia, if not the
English country from first Playford).

			---Simon

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: U254@sysm.acs.virginia.EDU
Subject: Arrow-making
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 20:45:00 GMT


Unto the good folk of the Rialto from Landon of Wulfkeep, greetings!

   Milord Graydon Saunders writes:

>It is *extremely* dubious something 30" long and less than
>1/2" thick can be turned in a lathe; any pressure put on the workpiece
>will flex it.  There is also that lathes were slow and tricky and
>post date military archery by quite some thousands of years.  There
>has to be another fast way to make steles; my guess is by planning
>into a 16gon in a jig and scrapping or rubbing smooth.

Milord--
   In _The_Woodwright's_Shop_, author Roy Underhill describes a
method of making dowels by pulling the split blanks through a series
of progressively smaller holes drilled in a metal plate.  I don't
know if this is period (the author's focus is Colonial era) but
might be worth looking into.

Yours in service --

   Landon of Wulfkeep                 Landon Falls
   Isenfir, Atlantia                  Charlottesville, Virginia, USA

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Subject: Re: looking for (person) & (lyrics)
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 22:29:03 GMT


Greetings to all, From Grimmund Blackwing.

Do you perhaps refer to the song, "Catalan Vengeance"?

My six gold rings were dearly bought, 
My comrade's life for the plate I own.
When our front rank spear met the French knights charge,
Of a hundred men I returned alone.
Of a hundred men I returned alone...

If this sounds like the one, email me for the rest of it, or post 
here and I'll post the whole thing.

Grimmund Blackwing,
	Occasional singer of old songs,
  Queen's Own Shire of Windhaven, Northshield, Middle Kingdom   


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael)
Subject: Re: Pennsic War\Fair (was Eastrealm Crown)
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:42:18 GMT


WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR!!!!!!!!!


-- 
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Jael                    |   "One dream, one soul, one prize, one goal,     |
| jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu | One golden glance of what should be." -R. Taylor |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~