HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Underwater shooting???
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:55 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <168t8iINNboi@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#No, it works fine: I know someone who took a bucket of water out to a 
#range, stuck his pistol under the water and fired it through the
#bucket (just to see if it would work...). 

Well, I don't know about revolvers (one was used in the movie), but
something else might not like this. For example a shotgun or a rifle
may explode if there is even a few grams of something obstructing the
barrel, not to talk about a barrel full of water! Think about how much
the water will weigh and how much more pressure it will cause to shoot
it out than just air.

	Mika
From: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:38:44 GMT
Organization: The Next Challenge, Fairfax, Va.



I have an even better one:

Back when I still had my 1911A1, I was trying to teach a friend of
mine the use of a pistol.  Said friend's only shooting experience was
M-16 in basic training.

Using said training, my friend attempted to aim the 1911A1 like an
M-16, with his eye up to the rear sight.

My scream of "CEASE FIRE" saved his face/eye.

I then demonstrated the PROPER aiming technique for a pistol, and the
reason why his attempt was such a BAD IDEA.

Frank Ney N4ZHG EMT-P  LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA "M-O-U-S-E"
Commandant and Acting President, Northern Virginia Free Militia
Send e-mail for an application and more information
----------------------------------------------------------------
"...I am opposed to all attempts to license or restrict the arming of
individuals...I consider such laws a violation of civil liberty, 
subversive of democratic political institutions, and self-defeating
in their purpose."
        - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning "Red Planet"
-- 
The Next Challenge - Public Access Unix in Northern Va. - Washington D.C.
703-803-0391 To log in for trial and account info.
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Should my first handgun be a .22? (Too wimpy for defense?)
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:35:54 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <9208170747.AA09832@network.ucsd.edu>, mbh@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington) writes:
# I need the advice of rec.guns readers about purchasing my first handgun.
# What I'm looking for is:
# 
# 	- A gun to learn shooting with and to improve marksmanship
# 	- A gun to use for personal defense in the city
# 	- A gun to bring backpacking for protection against bears and 
# 	  general personal defense in the backcountry
# 
# A good suggestion made to me by another rec.guns reader was to pick up a
# .22 for learning to shoot.  This is because the ammunition is so
# inexpensive, and the guns are easy to handle.  I like the feel and price
# of the Browning Micro Buck Mark.  The gun shop that I visited also has
# several Rugers in .22 caliber.
# 
# The two problems that I see with a .22 is that it doesn't seem powerful
# enough for personal defense against humans, let alone bears.  The
# Browning also seemed a little large to carry around easily.  Maybe I
# need two guns: one for practicing (a .22) and one for defense.  As I'm
# still in the brainstorming phase, price isn't that important.  Any
# suggestions would be greatly appreciated -- thanks in advance.
# 
Well, I'd suggest either two guns or a .357 magnum and fork out a little
more for practice.

125 gr JHP is an excellent choice for defense against humans.
158 gr (and up) SWC is a fair choice for defense against bears.
38 spcl ammo is a reasonably priced practice ammo for general 
    shooting skills (be sure to practice with each load, about
    20% 125, 20% 158 and 60% 38 spcl -- there is an incredible
    difference between the above three loads.)

'Course, if you wanna *really* do it right, but a .22 for practive,
a .357/9mm/45 for human defense and a .44 mag for bear defense.


-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Canadian Gun Laws
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:06 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

Canadian owners of restricted weapons take note:

Though I have yet to confirm this, it appears that persons owning
more than one restricted weapon (handguns, converted-full autos, etc)
will have to apply to become 'Genuine Gun Collectors' by Oct. 1, 1992.

Among other things it will require that you demonstrate knowledge of
your firearms (huh?) and that you must submit to PERIODIC INSPECTION
OF YOUR FIREARMS AND THE LOCATION THEY ARE STORED.

Time to move to Arizona......

Also....

As part of the new Canadian gun regulations there exists a point
system for classifying long arms.  It seems that if a weapon is not
already prohibited or restricted, they have provided this system so
that other weapons can be banned.

The system adds points up for various 'Evil' features of the firearm.
Supposedly, if it gets 50 points it must then be determined if the
gun should be restricted or prohibited.  As an example of how useful
this system is I calculated the number of points for a .357Mag lever
action carbine & it comes out to 80 points.  I guess that means its
an EvilDevilWorshippingManKiller weapon.  Funny, how a Winchester
1300 Defender 12 gauge only gets 75 points.

I can post the point system if there is interest.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        | "I don't enforce the law, I regulate |
| CMC                      |  human behaviour"                    |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |    - Commissioner Scali              |

[MODERATOR: I count this as informational, but encourage those who wish
followup discussion or comment to take it off line or to t.p.g., thanks.]
From: zymurgy.megatek!avf@uunet.UU.NET (Andy Funk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:57 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

Ok, I'll play, too.

Once I was at the range with several guns, including a Browning Hi-Power and
a Mauser HSc. I actually loaded the Browning magazine with .380 ammo. The
first shot produced a hole in the paper at aim point, but the slide didn't
cycle. "Wimpy range reloads", I think as I rack the slide by hand. The
second shot produced the same results, but this time I dropped tha mag and
inspected the very bulged .380 case with significant embarrasment.

Ok, one more.

When I was a kid, I had a .380 auto that I got from an unscrupulous adult. I
used to pop cans out in the desert with it. I learned a powerful lesson one
day when I was fooling around with it in the kitchen while my parents were
away. I was holding the gun sideways and while checking it out, somehow
pulled the trigger and blew a hole in the wall right next to the
refrigerator. I patched and painted it before they came home, and to this
day they don't know. I learned my safety lesson very well, however.
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Latin 101 (was Re: Beginner's question about caliber)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:34 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <16d0e1INN1ie@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

#Generally, they don't mean much more than brand names: Long Rifle, "For War"
#(Latin, Para Bellum), etc.

This may get moderated out, but it's one of my pet peeves, so I'm
taking it out for a walk.  "Para bellum" means "prepare [for] war".
("For war" would be "pro bello".)  It comes from the writings of a
Roman whose name escapes me (it wasn't J. Caesar, as you might expect)
who said, "to ensure peace, prepare for war".

#"Magnum" however, does have a specific meaning:
#a larger cartridge, more powerfull than the "average" round of the same
#size.

It's also Latin for "big".

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: X's on bullets
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:54 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

#Another example could be made of the understabilized .223 round from
#the US military.  Being both high-velocity and understabilized the
#bullet either yaws wildly as above or virtually fragments at sort
#range.  I'm not sure what'll happen with the SS109 rounds.

All conventional bullets are "understabilized" when flesh, water,
etc. is the medium in which they travel.  John Bercovitz could
probably expound on the relative inertia of air vs. other media and
the effect on bullet stability, as neatly illustrated by the
tumbling of any bullet when it strikes water.  I've shot .223 out
of a bolt action rifle with a 1-12 twist and never seen anything
but round holes in the target out to 300 yards, even with 60gr
Sierras.

Toby Bradshaw
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid Shooter Tricks; also: multi-target target
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:06 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, APG, MD.


In article <1992Aug21.004519.710@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#The Real(tm) stupidity here is that he probably alienated a potential ally
#forever.  That was certainly no way to introduce a neophyte to shooting.

I agree, wholeheartedly.  Plinking with a .22LR or even .38 Special can
be fun for a novice, but having one's wrist pounded by a .44 Magnum in
a lightweight gun is not going to be fun for any sane person.

Last week at the local indoor pistol range, I observed a young couple
who, from the questions being asked at the counter, pretty clearly had
just been introduced to guns.  One question was whether to buy .357 Magnum
or .38 Special ammo for target practice with the .357 Magnum revolver.
They were steered into using .38 Special, quite properly I thought, but
as I had lots of spare ammo with me for my .40S&W Glock 22, after putting
10 rounds in the black of one of the tiny subtargets of a slow-fire rifle
target (the one with 11 small subtargets on it) at 10 yards, I offered to
let the fellow fire the last 5 rounds from my gun just to get a feel for a
major-power load (so he'd know approximately what .357 Magnum loads would
have felt like).  He scattered the first three shots across the target and
the fourth one hit the angled metal clip holding the target and cardboard
backing -- it made a heck of a racket and left in the target paper a long
horizontal spray of small holes from fragments of the plated hollow-point
bullet. He looked really startled and handed back my gun without firing
the fifth shot, then went back to the .38 Special practice..

By the way, I really like that multi-target target for pistol practice
with deliberate shot placement (as opposed to quick-draw) at short range.
You can place 1 shot apiece in the 10 peripheral subtargets and a 5-shot
group in the central subtarget, or use each subtarget for a whole group.
The black spot is comparable to the accuracy with which I shoot (which
is not especially remarkable) at 10-yard range, so it's a good visual
check for one's technique; you don't have to fetch the target nor use a
spotting scope to see how you're doing.
From: fleck@cs.itc.hp.com (Dave Fleck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ballistics at high altitude
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:30 GMT


Question to all the net wisdom:

Reading the ballistics for my .300 mag I was reading along and noticed a
portion that commented that at higher altitudes the ballistics might vary.
Obviously at higher altitudes there is less oxygen.  My question is does
anyone have any ballistics for the following conditions:

Elk hunting is over 11,000 feet, I use Hornady 180 SP, .300 Win. mag

Deer is over 5,000 feet; I use Hornady 165 BT, .300 Win. mag

I know the standard ballistics, any help with the adjusted will be greatly
appreciated


Dave "I can already taste an Elk Burrito" Fleck
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 23
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:54 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Aug17.143527.6240@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# 
# I recently lucked into a used Glock 23 (smaller .40 S&W).  It was
# $380 and he threw in a box of ammo as well.  Do they all come
# with 2 magazines?  I thought they did, but my friend who wanted
# to shoot it as well thought that they only come with one.  In any
# case, mine came with 2.


   Yep, they all come with two mags, a cleaning rod, a loading tool
 and a nylon bristle brush. Around here NEW Glock 23's sell for $399.


						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Cleaning surplus rifles
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:34:04 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

I have a question concerning the cleaning of relic/curio firearms.

Both of my 1940/1950 surplus rifles had a little bit of rust in the
lands when I got them.  I cleaned them thoroughly and the rust SEEMED
to come off.  Aware of the hazards of corrosive primer cartridges, I
also made a point of cleaning them thoroughly immediately after
firing them.

However, both acquired a thin coat of rust in the month or so after
storage.  I recleaned them using GI bore cleaner but was unable to
remove rust from inside the rifling.

Am I doing something wrong?  Should I be worried?  Suggestions?

Thanks,

    don
From: glaird@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Gordon Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 23
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


Eric T. Jue admonishes Jim Heath:

# #I recently lucked into a used Glock 23 (smaller .40 S&W).  It was
# #$380 and he threw in a box of ammo as well. 

# In your case, it seems you paid quite a lot for a used Glock.  Here in
# Oakland, California you can get a brand new Glock for $389 at a
# place called The Traders.  This is not their normal price but a
# sale price that goes on every other month.

  This statement neglects history.  3 years ago, Glocks were the hottest
thing since sliced bread.  You could not find a Glock, new or used for
less than $550.  A year ago, at gun shows in Nevada, I surveyed Glock prices
and they had fallen to the mid-high $400.  I noticed a few CA shops selling
them, on sale, for mid $400.  Today, the price has plunged again to the 
high $300 to low $400.  If Jim purchased his Glock, even 6 months ago, 
he probably got a good deal at the time.
   Now suppose some congressional weenie proposes another magazine restriction.
Or perhaps, our buddy Bill Clinton is elected.  Anyone want to bet on used
Glock prices then?
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Magazine disconnect safety (was Re: Stupid shooter tricks)
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:16 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) / 10:14 am  Aug 18, 1992 /

#In article <13400018@iftccu.boeing.com>, bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#|> 
#|>
#|> Depends on where you train.  John Farnum may not be as well known as Ayoob, 
#|> but he DOES have very good credentials.  He teaches a thumbs up grip 
#|> on auto's that has the thumb of your strong hand on top of the safety, 
#|> (thumb over safety isn't that uncommon) and the thumb of your weak 
#|> hand straight up in front of your strong hand thumb.  Yes, this thumb
#|> is riding on the slide.  No it doesn't hurt.  No, it doesn't interfere 
#|> with the slide.  You can put your whole hand against it and it will still 
#|> cycle.  
#
#This would work for pistols with frame-mounted safeties, such as the M1911.
#I don't think I'd care try it with a slide-mounted safety system such as
#the S&W autos.  I also wouldn't use it for any safety worked *DOWN* for
#*SAFE* (instead of *DOWN* for *FIRE* as God -- through His prophet, John
#Browning -- clearly intended).  If you do this with a down-for-safe system
#like the luger, the recoil from the first shot could easily cause your
#thumb to engage the safety.

My apologies, yes, I should have made it clear that thumb over safety was 
for 1911 style guns only.  Thank you.  HOWEVER  As a matter of fact John 
likes the later model S&W autos.  In fact both he and his wife carried them.
Thumbs go UP in front of the safety. Yup, both of them, on the slide.

I should note that we had Glock's and a Sig in the class as well.  Don't 
remember a Baretta, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one there.  At
any rate, in several thousand rounds from many styles of semi auto, no 
malfunction was due to the 'thumbs up' grip.  

Just 15 data points though.

#My feeling is you should have a grip with all your thumbs, fingers, and
#what-not clear of any operating levers, buttons, or other dinguses.  This
#is difficult on small-grip autos like the Firestar, where my right thumb
#has a tendency to rest on the magazine-drop button.  Sometimes I think
#the Europeans with the bottom of the butt magazine release have the right
#idea.

My feeling is that you should try everything that makes sense.  Try Alan's 
suggestions too.

Rick.

John: "If you'd get those damned thumbs up, you'd quit missing that first
shot!"
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mas Ayoob to be in Seattle
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:27 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


Mas Ayoob will be in the Seattle area Sep 19 and 20.  He will be
offering his Judicious Use of Deadly Force Seminar which when combined
later with the completion class (shooting portion) gets you an LFI I
certificate.

Whether you later take the shooting portion or not, attendance of this
seminar qualifies you as one of his students.  There are some nice perks
associated with this.  One of the main ones is that he will go to bat
for you if you are ever involved in a justified self defense incident
that goes to criminal OR civil court.  This is not something to be
sneezed at.  In fact it may be one of the best insurances policies you
can get if you are considering a firearm as a self defense weapon.

I think the price for the two day seminar is about $125.00.  I posted my
review of this last time it came around.  In short, I consider it VERY
worthwhile.

Reservations may be made through the Firearms Academy of Seattle at
(206) 827-0533.

Rick.

I have no connection with ether FAS or LFI except as a satisfied
customer.  This announcement is made in the spirit of a public service
message.

If you do go, take him a bottle of Rolling Rock Beer and tell him that
you heard about it on the net.
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Information
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:35 GMT

jca@crash.cts.com wrote:
#
#I have also heard that +P and +P+ rounds are a bear on recoil.  Since
#you'd have to handload hot rounds to get and equivalent practice round,
#I don't think it's worth it.  I have yet to see any 9mm +P or +P+
#factory reloads.

I have shot many Remington 115-gr +P 9mmP cartridges through my Beretta
92FS (with a velocity of about 1275 fps).  I couldn't tell the difference
in recoil between this load and other non-+P 115-gr 9mmP loads.

I did not notice any abnormal wear and tear on the aluminum frame.  I
know that the Beretta is rated for +P and +P+ ammo.  Their proof loads
in my gun far exceeded the +P+ rating set by SAAMI.

-tt
From: smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dry Firing
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:14 GMT
Organization: SmartStar Corp. / Signal Technolgy Inc.

I took a pistol marksmanship course a few months ago.  They had us dry
fire the guns a few times.  You would take the gun, and hand it to the
person behind you.  On revolvers, he would load some of the chambers with
bullets, and leave other ones empty.  When you were shooting the gun, you
didn't know if there was a bullet in there or not.  For Semi Auto's, they
would either put a bullet in the clip or not.  

The point of this, is to teach you not to flinch.  I must have jerked
the gun 5 times, when there was no bullet in there.  It's supprizing
how much you anticipate the recoil.  You look pretty dumb jerking the
gun like that, when it doesn't even go bang.  After a few times, I quit
jerking it so much.  This is a good way to get rid of the bad habit.
Try it sometime with a freind.
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "Puff the Magic Dragon"
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:41 GMT
Organization: N/I

In article <RDH.92Aug9233552@ravel.sli.com> rdh@sli.com (Robert D. Houk) writes:
[ ... ]
#	The 7.62mm Minigun, based upon the principles of GE's M61 20mm
#    Vulcan gun, has a basic weight of 35 lbs., with a design life of
#    100,000 rounds. Overall length is 31.5 in.  Rate of fire can be
#    varied from 200 to 6,000 rounds/minute.

Egad.  Design life = 100,000 rounds @ 6,000 rounds/min
                   = 16 minutes, 40 seconds  ...           :-)
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Another irritating S&W 586 question
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:36:59 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

So, as long as I'm inundating this group with questions concerning my
Smith and Wesson 586, I have another question I'd like to ask about
it.

I noticed, while looking at the original instructions, that it looks
like the barrel screws right off.  Would it be possible for me to
remove the 4 inch barrel, replace it with a 6 inch barrel myself?
For long distance plinking, could I attach a scope to that long barrel
or would I also have to alter the frame?

I don't believe they ever made a 2 inch barrel for the 586 but
could a gunsmith cut down a 4 inch barrel, turning it into a quality
2 incher?

Basically, if it's possible, I'd like to end up with something like
the Dan Wesson revolvers, which come with a snubbie barrel, a 4 inch
barrel and a 6 inch target barrel.  Sort of like having 3 guns for a
bit over the price of one.

If this is complete idiocy, please let me know! :)

   don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He who molds public sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or
pronounces decisions.  He makes statutes or decisions possible or impossible
to execute."
        - Abraham Lincoln during the Lincoln-Douglas debates
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Baldwin  -  Software Engineer  - e-mail to:  donb@tamri.com