From: julian@sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Defending the Faith through Fear (was Inerrancy)
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:50:26 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

jte@psi.com (John Eldredge) writes:

>In article <Aug.25.02.17.16.1992.19301@athos.rutgers.edu> jwindley@asylum.cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) writes:
>>
[much deliberation on the status of the bible with respect to faith]

>So, literal understanding of an inerrant Scripture is critical to having
>any absolute grasp on God's truth, but this still requires one to trust 
>the Spirit in himself and others.  Our inward "inclinations" may be the 
>world system (ie our culture), our sin nature, our conscience, Satan himself 
>or, in fact, God the Holy Spirit.  Each believer must discern these impulses 
>to determine which are actually from God.  But, of course, without an
>unfailing (ie inerrant) revelation, we are just drifting and any 
>discernment is subjective at best and self-serving at worst.

>I believe the truth has always started first with propositional facts 
>presented by God in His word.  Christ was the Word, the fulfillment of 
>God's word.  Prophets in the Old Testament were also judged by their adherance
>to the previously revealed word of God (Deut 13).  Now, this is not to 
>say that the indwelling of the Spirit does not add a dimension of "subjective"
>leading - it does, but always consistent with Scripture, never at variance.

>Faith is critical to Christianity, but it is faith in specific indisputable
>facts that work in salvation.  Only an inerrant Bible can provide that,
>since "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

>John


Julian responds:

Is it possible for any person to have "an absolute grasp" on any truth?
All of our knowledge, in whatever sphere( science, art, religion) is
necessarily relative. It passes through other people to get to us
(except for mystical experiences, which I do not think are a good
base for faith, and certainly not a sufficient one). Our grasp
on God's truth, I think, comes through our faith. This means believing
even if we cannot reason our way to it.        

Truth about God does not start with propositional facts. God is not
an object that can be experimented upon. Any statement about God
is either someone's verbalisation of a personal (supernatural?)
mystical experience or it is revealed by God. But if it has to be revealed
it cannot be a "fact" as we usually use the word (ie, an observable
phenomenon in nature). Whatever we assert about God has the status
of assertions held by faith, not (necessarily) observable physical
acts.
Take, for example, the statement "Christ is the Word". This has no
literal earthly meaning, rather it
describes God's way of interacting with people vai an agency.
It has links to God's power to act (via divine fiat, when God says
"Let it be.. " it is) and the means by which God chooses to act.
But these are not demonstrable propositions.

Finally, I believe it is faith in God (as a person, friend, saviour) that is 
essential to salvation, not faith in some "indisputable facts".
I don't know if the following is valid but anyway: suppose God does not
exist but we have exactly the same Bible transmitted through the centuries.
Then it would be possible for a person to believe in the "facts"
written in this "inerrant and infallible" book but they still would
not have salvation. Whatever we assert about the Bible and inerrancy
is just that: human assertions. The work of God consists in redeeming souls
not persuading intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. Otherwise
faith would be proportional to intelligence.

julian

PS Having just reread this, apologies for the dogmatic tone,
it is my natural typing style!
PPS Of course, this does not address the issue of how christians should
behave which seems to be a large part of the reason why conservative
thinkers argue for an infallible Bible. Since God created us with
free will perhaps he expects us to work out "for ourselves" how to act
this is both a privilege and a burden. The Bible tells us the 
consequences of our actions by showing us other people's lives.
If we say we have faith others (but not God) will judge us by our actions.
But God judges by our whole person, motives and inner struggles as well
as what we actually do. Which might explain why even christians have to account
for what they do on earth.