Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:23:46 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Family values
X-To:         christia%asuacad.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

Subject: Re: Family values


Marty Helgesen
>> I agree that distributing condoms "feels" wrong, but are there any statistic
s
>> about how is has affected incidence and frequency of sex?  Without them,
>there
>> is no way to know whether this will do anything or not.
>
>This isn't in one of my fields of expertise (as if I have any!) -- do
>you know of any stats, Michael Kline or anybody else?  But distributing
>condoms does send the message of condoning promiscuity, and if there
>aren't any stats saying that it has _cut down_ the incidence and
>frequency of sex, then it's legitimate to call for an end to this
>practice.

There was a story in the papers a month or so ago about a school
district in Colorado that was one of the first to distribute condoms
and to have special programs for pregnant students.  There was a large
increase in the pregnancy rate.  (Note: special programs for pregnant
students can be good, but apparently these programs treated their
girls' pregnancies as just a lifestyle change.  (Now where have we
heard that phrase before?))

MAKS> Several related quotes with comments follow. These pretty much
      fall in line with what the article says....

Josh McDowell said in Ankerberg's program ----------------------------->
    When it comes to the whole concept "Safe Sex". do you know why
they're not saying that anymore? Safe Sex? For this reason, by Planned
Parenthood's own documentation, the average failure rate, statistical
failure rate, of somebody 17 years old or younger, using a condom 100% of
the time, for birth control, is 18.6% failure rate. Now, you can only get
pregnant maybe 3 days a month, 36 days a year. But yet, a 17 year old or
younger, wearing a condom *100%* of the time for birth control, you still
have an 18.6%, almost 1 out of 5% failure rate, in just 36 days a year.

    But you can get AIDS and other STDs 365 days a year, 31 days a month
including February. You know if you have an 18.6% failure rate for just
36 days a year, what is it for 365 days a year? When it comes to
pregnancy, only the woman can get pregnant. When it comes to STDS, both
the man *and* the woman can get them. That geometrically multiplies it.

    And so, you'd have to say, to really have "Safe Sex" a condom would
have to be 10 times more effective for STDs than for pregnancy.

And Dr. Day adds ------------------------------------------------------>
    Day: I can tell you what the government really thinks about condoms.
About 2 years ago, UCLA was given 1 million dollars to do a study on the
prevention of AIDS from one gay man to another by the use of condoms
during sex. One courageous National Institute of Health researcher spoke
up and said "We're removing the million dollars from UCLA because our
pilot studies have shown that condoms are so ineffective we would give
too many gay men AIDS who don't already have it.

    Condoms break, they come off, and in fact all new condoms off of the
shelf have small microscopic holes in them that are large enough let the
virus come through. In fact, the same thing is true of latex gloves in
the operating room, that's why we wear 2 or 3. However, I don't hear the
government telling young people to use 2 or 3 condoms to protect
themselves even more. Also, when ozone gets to the condom, if the wrapper
has a little opening in it, it will destroy the effectiveness of the
condom even though the condom looks like it is totally intact, and the
AIDS virus can go through. So condoms are not safe.

And Maks adds his $0.02 ------------------------------------------------>
   I can't say I know of any married couples that have used condoms for
"years" of birth control. Yet, we'll give them to our kids and tell them
this is "safer". Josh has a good point about things like herpes that
occurs where a condom doesn't cover. How about a "wet suit" with a
condom built in. This could also include a mouth condom to protect from
the "dangers" of french kissing which the CDC has now "officially" said
"DON'T".

   Abstinence programs have a proven record where applied. Pregnancy
rates go down. STD rates go down. Other associated problems such as
HPV, etc. go down. The teens feel better about themselves.
   Some schools have started abstinence programs despite pressure of
Planned Parenthood saying, "These are OUR kids, and we're talking life
and death here."

  Dr. Day relays a story of a condom study with homosexuals being so
disastrous that it was canceled, yet we're willing to do the same
"test" with your kids, my kids? And you wonder why I home schooled?

Stanley Monteith adds this little bit of wisdom ------------------------>
    Monteith: What I tell young people today, about condoms, is this. If
you're going to be promiscuous us a condom, but understand, that when
you're playing with sex, you can get syphilis, or gonorrhea. You can get
lippercauthic vinerium, lippergrandinovium vinerium. You can get
shankroid. You can get clamiddia, and you can be sterile for life and
never be able to have children. You can get venereal warts and that will
translate into many instances into cervical cancer that will require a
hysterectomy. You can get herpes that will be with you for life. You can
get hepatitis-B. You can get Tricamonus infection. You can get Manilian
infection. You can get pregnant. There are going to be philological
problems because of promiscuity.

    And now you have HIV disease, and if you get HIV disease you can look
forward to never being able to marry, never being able to have children,
and a slow progressive painful, demented death. Now is it really worth
it?

Another $0.02 ---------------------------------------------------------->
   Forever. Yes it sounds like fear, but forever. The joke around my
time was "What is the difference between love and herpes?" .... "Herpes
is forever!" and we laughed about it. Now it's AIDS, and if we try to
say be careful, we're being paranoid. And it's not just AIDS, there
are TONS of things out there. The figures are pretty high for many of
the other diseases making women sterile and killing them.

   I have not used "fear" on my children, but they have watched all these
programs. Without saying anything directly to my children, Rachel, my
oldest said, can't remember why, "Nobody better try anything with me,
I know what I would do, and believe me, it's not pretty." I think she
was talking to one of her girl friends and I suspect she meant a knee
to the groin, what ever it takes. When she wants to talk, I'm here.
   I think she got a lot from her friends, when Linda took her to the
doctor for a check up, she asked if she knew about sex, periods, etc,
and she said something like "Oh, I know all about that." We do have a
book by Larry Christian here she's read. One day she was having cramps
and told me so, I asked why, thinking they were gas. She said, "What
do YOU think?" and I said "Oh.... Well pardon ME?" She don't have any
PMS or anything like that, but if she's aching, she talks about it like
guys might talk about gas, so there's no embarrassment and there's an
open communication link. ("Communication link"? I've been working with
computers too long. Gee, I wonder what baud rate it is? :-) )

LTC Robert Redfield talks about what the medical professionals think---->
    Redfield: I was asked a very simple question, would I medically
recommend it? You know, I never thought of it that way. This was back in
1985, I hadn't really thought about it too much. And I finally said, "If
I had a patient who was HIV infected..." and I've asked many doctors,
"would I recommend that they sleep with someone who is not HIV infected
with or without a condom... Medically. I wouldn't do that. If I had a
patient who was not infected would I recommend that they sleep with
someone who was infected with or without a condom. I wouldn't recommend
that either."

Maks adds another $0.02, maybe $0.01 worth ----------------------------->
   So, the medical profession as a whole don't think it to be safe, but
if we're talking our children, yours and mine, that's different. I'm
not sure I want my kids having that risk. Even the CDC says there are
problems, and they are not effective. Like I said, another reason I
home school.... :-)

Maks.
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