From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Libertarian "rights" (Re: Ross Perot)
Originator: rja@redwood26
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Distribution: usa
Date: 7 Apr 92 09:36:40 CDT


In article <1992Apr3.213253.21826@morrow.stanford.edu>, GA.JRG@forsythe.stanford.edu (June Genis) writes:
> In article <ri9ieINNn45@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>,
> strat@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis) writes:
> >I will vote for someone with whom I share ideology.  I will NOT vote
> >for someone who tries to force HIS ideology on me.  That is not the
> >way this system was meant to work.  I will not support someone who
> >consideres people with opposing views as "anti-libertarians".  This
> >attitude does nothing but impede our democratic system.
> 
> Whoa!  The whole basis of libertarianism is that no one should be
> allowed to force their ideology on anyone else.

Part of the problem I have with Libertarians (generalizing) is statements,
like the one above, which tend to distort, rather than clarify, the
Libertarian position.  Libertarians most certainly support the use of
force to defend (the Libertarian ideological view of) property rights.

A more accurate statement is:  The whole basis of Libertarianism is that 
one should be allowed to force their ideology (or any other conditions) on 
anyone else that wants to use their property.  This force can only be 
avoided within the property an individual personally controls or to the
extent that a person can convince others not to use their force (on the
property that the others control).

In the Libertarian view, the government is not allowed to restrict rights
which is not the same as saying that people have rights (such as free speech).
People have rights to the extent of they property own or can convince others
to allow them rights (on the property others own).  For example,  the 
Libertarian party platform says:

  We oppose any  abridgment of the  freedom of speech through government
  censorship, regulation or  control of communications media, including,
  but not limited to, laws concerning:
  ...
  -- Electronic bulletin  boards,  communications  networks,  and  other
  interactive electronic media  as we hold  them to  be  the  functional
  equivalent of speaking  halls and  printing  presses  in  the  age  of
  electronic communications, and as such deserving of full freedom;
  ...
  We oppose government  ownership or subsidy  of, or  funding  for,  any
  communications organization.

So while they say "Electronic bulletin  boards, [...] deserving of full 
freedom;", they *only* mean freedom from government restrictions.  Since
all electronic communication would be privatly owned, the only free speech
a person will have is on the communications equipment that the person owns 
or to the extent that the other owners of communications equiptment are
willing to allow it, if at all.

>                                                  As for
> name-calling, what should someone be called, if not anti- (or at
> least un-) libertarian, when they *do* accept the imposition of
> ideology thru force?  Democracy is a system which if not bound by a
> constitution allows the majority to do anything they want to the
> minority by using force if necessary.  Libertarians believe that
> democracy is a means to an end, the end being the support of
> individual rights, not an end in itself.

This should also say that the only "individual rights" are the right
not to be killed/tourtured and the right to own property.  For someone 
to have other "individual rights" (such as free speech) they must have 
property or convince others to allow them those rights.

I've tried to avoid a discussion of whether the Libertarian view is 
"good" or "bad", but focus on an accurate description of Libertarian 
ideology.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
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