From: mills@uga.edu (Kathi Mills)
Subject: Re: Let Keep the population down please!!!!!!!
Organization: University of Georgia Economics Department
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:50:44 GMT

> O'Dwyer
># Ferrari
>#> O'Dwyer

>#>I note that the Christian religions seem to offer salvation as a remedy for
>#>original sin, and the penalty for original sin is not particularly severe.

>#NOT PARTICULARLY SEVERE?!  <choke> Endless torture in hell is NOT PARTICULARLY
>#SEVERE?  Then postulate some punishment *worse* that never-ending fiery
>#torture.

>Limbo != Hell.

All right, I'll accept that limbo is not as bad as hell, though I am still
of the opinion that eternal boredom is pretty severe torture.  And is it not
true that those who believe in limbo also believe that if the soul is not
"prayed out" of limbo, it will eventually go to hell?

>#>The Church of Reason, on the other hand, offers a new kind of original sin -
>#>a z/e/f is guilty of the crime of non-sentience, a crime for which it is
>#>guilty until proven innocent.  And the techno-nihilists are not nearly so
>#>forgiving...

>#Very melodramatic, pinhead.  Have you ever stepped on a bug?  GASP!  That
>#creature was guilty of non-sentience and you punished it!  Point: a fetus
>#is about as sentient as a common cockroach during most of the time that
>#it is legal to have abortion on demand under Roe v. Wade.

>Point: You don't know what you're talking about.

You disagree with my contention that a fetus is non-sentient during the
first 24 weeks of pregnancy, yet you offer no justification for that.
To be fair, in this post I offered no justification for my belief that a
fetus is sentien in this post, although I have done so several times in
the past (within the last few minutes, even).  Therefore I will offer my
reasons for believing a fetus of 30 weeks' gestation or less is not
sentient.

The best place to start is with a definition of sentient.

sen-tient adj. 1.  Having sense perception; conscious.  2.  Experiencing
sensation or feeling.

(American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd College Ed., p. 1117, (c) 1985.)

Thus, to qualify under this technical definition, the fetus must be conscious
and capable of feeling physical sensations, such as heat, cold, pain, etc.
I understand that myelination of the neurons does not take place until the
24th week of gestation, and that without this myelination, it is impossible
for the fetus to attain an even rudimentary consciousness or to feel pain.
If you disagree on this point of fact, post your sources.

However, I personally go beyond the dictionary's limited definition, since
I feel the word "sentient" describes that which makes humans different from,
and inherently more valuable than, other animals.

The only quality that I can observe that differentiates humans from animals
is the ability to think.  From this ability developed the use of tools and
all of our technology.  

To summarize: my definition of "sentient" includes the ability to think, 
and sentience is the quality that makes humans different from, and more
valuable than, other animals.  Therefore, anything which possesses the
capability of thinking is sentient, and is therefore different from, and
more valuable than, other animals.  Anything which does not possess the
capability of thinking is not sentient, and therefore is not different from,
or more valuable than, other animals.

Wrt abortion, the question then arises: when does a fetus become sentient?
As I have stated in other posts, I believe the fetus does not possess the
ability to think, and is therefore not sentient, until the 30th week of
gestation when the cerebral cortex develops.  The cerebral cortex is
crucial because it is responsible for higher brain functions, such as 
thinking.

I therefore believe that, before the cerebral cortex develops at the 30th
week of gestation, the fetus is not sentient, and is not different from,
or more valuable than, other animals.  Because the fetus is not more
valuable than other animals, it is as OK to kill the fetus as it is to
kill other animals.

Now, present your argument that the fetus is sentient before 24 weeks
of gestation.  Be sure to include your definition of "sentient."

>And do something about
>that "punishment" hang-up of yours, will you?  It's obvious that you just
>want to punish women for having sex.

No, actually, I have no desire to force a woman to continue a pregnancy
against her will.

>#So unless you are an utter pacifist and have never killed anything, even >a
>fly, in your life, you are as guilty of discriminating against non- >sentient
>beings as you claim the women who have abortions are.

>I never said women who have abortions discriminate against non-sentient
>beings.  My beef is not with women who abort, but with people who urge or
>recommend abortion as a solution, on the basis that a foetus has less worth
>than other human beings.  While I believe that I am not entitled to a woman's
>reasons for abortion, and wish to see abortion remain legal (become legal,
>where I come from) nevertheless the idea that a foetus may not be sentient
>makes a big "THUD" with me, and in itself is a poor excuse for abortion.
>Follow?

Not really, as 1) I don't know anyone who would "recommend abortion as a
solution" BECAUSE "the foetus has less worth than other human beings."
I myself would only recommend abortion BECAUSE the woman cannot afford
a(nother) kid, would risk her life or health, wants the abortion, etc.;
but my belief that a pre-30-week fetus "has less worth than [sentient]
human beings" is what allows me to morally sanction abortion at all, for
myself and others.  2) You have offered no reason for your belief that
a fetus is sentient at all.

>#>While I'm in the neighborhood, what is the motive for bastardising the name
>#>of Christianity in the above manner?

>#You people (at least the ones who believe in original sin) bastardize your
>#own name quite effectively.  I was merely observing the fact.

>Nice try, but I'm not a Christian.  

Then change "You" and "your" to "Those" and "their."

-- 
Ferrari (mills@rolf.stat.uga.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,soc.men,alt.dads-rights