HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: wine (was Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:02:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.124557.10571@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
|> In article <memo.545631@cix.compulink.co.uk>
|> stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
|> 
|> >In-Reply-To: <1992Jul27.172937.25839@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
|> >friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
|> 
|> >>Is there exception for eating meat on Shabbat during this period?
|> 
|> >Yes, and wine is also permitted. As to Havdalah, the wine should be
|> >given to a child if one is available; otherwise, an adult may drink
|> >it.
|> 
|> Couldn't you simply make Havdalah on using a beverage that requires a
|> she'hakol instead of using wine?

No, that's just what they're *expecting* us to do!
(Quick, identify that quote!)
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
From: daver@ECE.ORST.EDU (Dave Rabinowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:41:25 GMT
Organization: ECE Dept.,OSU,Corvallis

In article <dfs.712111678@data> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <EGGERTJ.92Jul24224958@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
>eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>>This is in contrast to most Christian churches, which are supported by
>>voluntary contributions.
>
>I think Mr. Eggert doesn't know what he is talking about.  Every synagogue
>I know of is supported by voluntary contributions.  If Mr. Eggert has
>a counter-example, I'd be interested in hearing it, or having him
>personally acknowledge his error in making the above statement.

I have a Jewish friend who refuses to join the local Jewish community because
she is opposed to membership dues.  She attends the local Unitarian Fellowship,
which relies entirely on voluntary contributions (you become a full member by
just signing your name), and gives them more each year than she would have to
pay for dues in our community.  It's not an issue of how much it costs (we will
not turn away anyone for not paying full dues, and this is made clear on every
membership form), but just that the concept of dues bothers her.  Are there any
shuls which do not have a membership dues structure?   How do they work?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Originator: schwartz@baba
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 15:51:28 GMT


In article <1992Jul24.131308.6019@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
> In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> 
> >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
> >--
> >Yigal Arens
> >USC/ISI    
> 
> Isn't USC in US-occupied Mexican territory?
> -- 
> Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com

No, Sam, it's in the European-occupied Native American territories.
-- 
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Discovery
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:23:25 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul24.214306.23065@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg ) writes:

    Codes have been found which refer to the Holocaust, George Bush (no
    kidding!) the Gulf War, the 39 Scud Missles and many other topics.
    All of the codes which have been found have referred to actual
    historical events.

Harumph.  This is because that was all they were looking for.  Feed
the computer lists of things that never happened, and I'm sure you'll
find some of that, too.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire ***		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very cold gauze pad.
 |warren@      But the ***
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:03:00 GMT
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <9207291721.AA07955@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:
>   Christianity, I believe, says all non Christians are doomed -- anathema,
>   if you will.  Judaism -- even the fundamentalist brand -- says nothing
>   of the sort.

Not quite true on the first count.  It depends on the brand of
Christianity what the judgement for non-Christians is.  Most of them,
for example, would not damn Moses, though he was hardly a Christian.
Some of them would not damn someone who has never heard of Christ.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Circumcision of converts?
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:50:16 GMT
Summary: Torah does mandate circision for converts

In article <1992Jul20.192413.4048@njitgw.njit.edu>,
dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:

> In article <FAIGIN.92Jul17142315@soldan.aerospace.aero.org>
> faigin@aerospace.aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

> >(1) The Torah doesn't appear to proscribe any initiatory rites for the
> >convert.

> True, but the Torah isn't in Heaven, but on Earth.  The Rabbis always
> have the power to dictate Laws if they don't contradict the Torah or
> the earlier generations.  There's an interesting story based on this
> about Rabbi Akiba vs. the rest of Sanhedren.  I'll tell it in another
> post if someone asks.

While David's refutation stands on its own merit, I deny Dan's
(source's) contention.  What about Shimon and Levi's trick when Dinah
gets raped?  They tell the town's people that if their leader wants to
marry her they must all convert and the _single_ symbol of conversion
is circumcision.

Now, I admit to two problems with using this as proof:  Shimon and Levi
(I wonder if their initials - S&L - should mean anything today :-) knew
that circumcision as an adult would be particularly painful and would
allow them a military advantage.  Second, this story does take place
before the Torah is given.  In response to these objections, we see
that Yakov's rebuke for their action, both here and at the end of
Genisis, has nothing to do with the desecration of the mitzvot.
Second, most commentaries point out that there are plenty of
indications that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their families, at least
until they settlid in Egypt had a fair working knowledge of Jewish
law.  We see, for example that later in the same Parsha (Genisis'
Vayishlach)  Jacob demands his family, and servants clean up their act
and there seems to be no reason to believe, given these two stories,
that circumcision wasn't known.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Subject: Re: Chicken
Reply-To: goer@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:58:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.145410.426@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>
>> ...thus whenever you eat meat, it's analogous to some animal peeing and
>> defecating in your mouth. Are you sure you want to keep eating that stuff?
>>
>> Fish, of course, don't urinate in the mammalian sense, and thus the
>> uric acid issue isn't relevant, and they are tender enough that we
>> don't hang fish to rot, to make them tender, as we do with meat.

>I find the above quite interesting. A few months ago I posted on SCJ a list of
>references in the medical literature that explained why a mixture of milk and
>meat might induce adverse effects in the body, and the comparative toxicity
>of blood obtained from different animals killed by arteriotomy (SHECHITA) vs.
>that obtained by killing animals by other methods. Apropos to what David
>mentioned about putrefaction, another paper dealt with redox phenomena
>occurring in skeletal muscle in arteriotomized animals vs. animals killed by
>other means.

You guys should go to work for the Tobacco Institute.

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: alex@opal.idbsu.edu (Alex Feldman)
Subject: Re: Pre-Columbian Jews?
Organization: Boise State University Math Dept.
	<1992Jul27.154629.22468@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<4179@rebecca-lillian.bbn.com>
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:50:55

>>>>> On 28 Jul 92 17:52:00 GMT, wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker) said:

In article <4179@rebecca-lillian.bbn.com> wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker) writes:

Ward> In article <1992Jul27.154629.22468@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> hmccullo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Huston McCulloch) writes:
>In article <srutt.711774567@beagle> srutt@boulder.Colorado.EDU (DNA Kaifeng),

Ward> [Much material about the possibility of Jewish settlement in the
Ward> New World long before Columbus deleted.]

Ward> I must say I am a bit cynical about this line of research.  A
Ward> religious group (the Mormons) holds as an article of faith that
Ward> Israelites made it by boat to the Americas in ancient times.  As I
Ward> understand it, Mormon scripture is largely about the exploits of these
Ward> ancient American Israelites and their descendants.  Mormons believe
Ward> this information was revealed to Joseph Smith in the 1800's through a
Ward> divine agent, in upstate New York.

Ward> Therefore this research has the flavor of ``proving'' Mormonism
Ward> ``correct.''  Work by Mormon researchers on the topic of pre-Columbian
Ward> American Jews must be viewed very cautiously, since there is a bias
Ward> --- conscious or unconcious --- to reach one particular result.  Were
Ward> the principals involved in this ``Bat Stone Creek'' discovery Mormons?

Ward> --Ward

I have not read the Book of Mormon, cover to cover, but I am sure what
Ward has posted here is wrong.  If he can give me any references to
justify his claims, I will gladly apologise.

The BOM claims three migrations from the Holy Land to America.  One
was pre-Abraham, no Jews in that one.  As for the others, there is no
claim that they were "Israelites".  One principal character, Nephi,
was claimed to have been Jewish, but nowhere is his wife claimed to be
Jewish.  There is no claim in BOM, nor in official LDS doctine, as far
as I know, that these people spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, or even knew how
to write before they got here.  The LDS are very top-down, as far as
doctrine is concerned, and there is nothing there that would indicate
that this find is important to them.

That's not to say that an over-eager LDS couldn't have assembled the
whole thing.  But so could an over-eager anything.
--
	--alex			alex@opal.idbsu.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:58:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.164438.28347@midway.uchicago.edu>
rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>In article <LERNER.92Jul31093324@division.cs.columbia.edu>
>lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

>>  What is this allegation of inhumane treatment of animals?  Are you
>>  talking about veal?  So why does the butcher have a sign telling
>>  people not to eat veal because of how it is cared for?   

>Veal; most chicken in the United States; virtually all milk in the United
>States. And a sign at the butcher's that suggests something is different
>from considering it one of the basic laws of kashruth.

Please list a synopsis of all the Kashruth laws that the Reform
considers to be binding on at least themselves.  Or have I already done
so?
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:16:31 GMT

In article <9207272350.AA22461@robocop.NYU.EDU> baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker) writes:
>I attended a lecture on Codes in the Torah at my shul on Tu Bishevat,
>given by ...
>
>In sum, then, you can find anything you want, at Discovery's restaurant.
>As my friend who went to the lecture with me said, it's like throwing a
>dart at a wall, and then drawing the target around the point where it lands.
>   Jonathan J. Baker


It's a shame you didn't hear the same lecture presented by a Mathematician.

Unfortunately, a layman's description of the codes to a scientifically
inclined individual does indeed sound like mumbo-jumbo.  The converse
is also true; a mathematician's lecture to a lay audience will also
sound like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. It seems in your case, you were the
wrong audience for the speaker.

I am somewhat mathmatically inclined, and my first introduction to
these codes was by a mathematician. 

The speaker first described what you would expect statistically if this
were random, and proceeded to show that the statistical claims
indeed help up in practice. Then the speaker went on to show what they
actually found, and the claim was that this was statistically
significant. When you calculate the numbers, it is quite obvious that
there is definitely something out of the ordinary.

At this point, the speaker then went on to show all the various
explanations that were attempted to explain these numbers, assuming
that everything was really random. Further experiments were conducted to
determine if these explanations were valid. But in each case, they
were able to refute the explanation.

I have included in a separate post a list of some of the academians
who have examined the evidence, and agree that (at least) it seems
that there is definitely something there.

Hayim Hendeles

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: markr@mot.com (Mark)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: markr@mcil.comm.mot.com
Organization: MCIL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 05:19:27 GMT

In article <84656@netnews.upenn.edu> rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.180420.7764@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>>Sorry, but I just don't believe it.  I don't know of any Jewish
>>day school or yeshiva that will refuse admission to a kid whose
>>family simply can't afford tuition.
>
>It's not that simple though.  What if you can afford the tuition, but paying it
>means the difference between living a comftorable life with a few luxuries and
>between constant scrimping and saving and never being able to save any money to
>protect against sudden expenses.  . . . 
>Around here, the tuition for day schools is around 6-8 thousand dollars;
>. . . That means that day school is an
>expensive luxury for most people.  I realize that costs are high, and I don't
>know what the solution is, but tuition reductions are not an answer, not when
>more than half of the families would need them.

Day school will always be expensive, but there is no need for schools to
spend an average of 6-8K per student.  There are some things schools can
do to reduce their costs, it seems they have gotten very fat and happy
lately.  An average day school with a few hundred students can get by with
only 2-3 administrators.  They can get rid of the career advisors and the
psychologists, etc, we can't afford them.

Mark


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:07:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.183547.16457@cbfsb.cb.att.com>  
hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
> 
> Similarly, a Jew should follow the Jewish principles because they
> are right and were given by G-d, not because of any "tradition",
> "culture", or "history".  This is the reason we refuse to let the
> missionaries destroy us by any means whether
> 
> "with flame or sword or whip
>  or calls to xian fellowship"

This is assuming that there is God and assuming that he does everything  
right, not like when he allowed 6 millon Jews to die in labor camps.
You refuse misionaries destroy you because you believe on a different  
principle.


> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> | Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
> | H_Markowitz@att.com |  So too is it with the Jews and the TORAH  |
> |_____________________|____________________________________________|

AAP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Linguistic Purity (was Re: Hidden agenda?)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:50:24 GMT

ge = ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)

me: Gematria and Sanhedrin were used 2000 years ago, I don't think
me: akademia was.  But the Sanhedrin did not have, as its mission, to make
me: sure that everyone was speaking Hebrew rather than other languages
me: (just as well, since they were speaking Aramaic, for the most part).
ge:                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ge: Not the case.
ge: Members of sanhedrin were supposed to know languages but the
ge: language that was spoken by the Sanhedrin was  Hebrew.
ge: Even much latter Hebrew was spoken in Eretz Yisrael.
ge: the Eretz-yisrael-talmud is written in Hebrew.

It was possible to misunderstand what I said, so I'll try again.  The
Sanhedrin's mission did not include making sure that the Jewish
inhabitants of Israel (who mostly spoke Aramaic - the people - not the
Sanhedrin while in session) spoke pure Hebrew.  Therefore, the fact
that it had a Greek name for itself is not incongruous, the way the
Akademia using a Greek name for itself is.

Note that I do not assume that Gideon deliberately tried to
misunderstand my posting.

I do wonder about the statement that
> the Eretz-yisrael-talmud is written in Hebrew.

Perhaps this should be understood as "written partially in Hebrew" as
the Talmud Yerushalmi also contains Aramaic, in a dialect that differs
from the Aramaic used in the Talmud Bavli, and was not meant to imply
otherwise.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire auditorium		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is not *** at all.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: surviving
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:41:49 GMT

dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
 	When an enemy nation wants to convert you, not converting at any cost
	is the ultimate protest.  When an enemy nation wants to KILL you (this
	was the first time that ever happened) the only protest is to remain
	alive as constant reminder that they have failed.

What happened in Shushan?

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: What are non-Yiddish speaking and non-Sephardic Jews called?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:16:49 GMT

In <14fnkgINNifh@agate.berkeley.edu> rice@enterprise.Berkeley.EDU (Daniel S. Rice) writes:

>	Just a minor nitpick: the word _`edah_ (community) changes
>form a bit when put into a construct state.

Well thanks for the information, but I'll go on speaking in such a way
that people will understand me rather than correctly.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter theft.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:43:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.131331.23923@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.042915.10187@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Yes and no, at least from what I was taught. (I've been told by people
>>like Mr. Faigin that my congregation's branch of Reform is not all that
>>typical, so I have to keep putting the caveats in.) We feel as strongly
>>as you do that Torah is directly G-d's laws and must be followed absolutely.
>>We not only think it's unnecessary, however, to follow "the dictates of
>>the system as it was handed down through the generations", we feel it is
>>actively *wrong*, as it involves omission of what we consider the correct
>>and necessary interpretations of existing, absolute laws. Call it a form
>>of fundamentalism if you will; it's probably a more accurate term than
>>true Reform. 
>
>   Actually, from the position you've articulated in scj, I would say you
>   are "Reformodox."

Not a bad description. As I've said, a fairly significant amount of my
practice tallies with Orthodox rules; I simply reserve the right to part
company with those rules when I think they are not an accurate version
of what Torah says.

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Helping anti-Semites (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:14:44 GMT

In <24JUL199214393515@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov>
afwendy@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (WENDY WARTNICK) writes:

>Interesting.  This brings to mind an experience my fiance had one night 
>while he was working at the hospital (he is a resident).  He was doing an 
>emergency room rotation (I think) and they brought a guy in who was in need 
>of some stitches--the guy was a neo-Nazi skin head (shaven head and all) 
>with a huge swastika on his arm.  Two of the three doctors present were 
>Jewish.  Sure, they helped him...but don't think they didn't feel sick to 
>their stomaches when they did.  And I am sure they didn't go to any extra 
>trouble once the job was done.  I don't think it takes anything as extreme 
>as Hitler to make people think twice about whether they want to offer aid.

Ugh.  That's a rotten thing to happen.  I hope they didn't give the
guy any pain medication.  (Maybe they could have sewn the stitches in the
shape of a Magen David?  Give his buddies something to think about...)

That story reminds me of one that happened in Ottawa about six months
ago.  A would-be neo-Nazi went to a tailor's store to have a swastika
sewn on his jacket.  The place was owned by a Holocaust survivor.  The
tailor sat the skinhead down and explained exactly what the swastika
meant, and why he would not sew it on.  Luckily, the skinhead was not
a true racist, but just being swayed by peer pressure, so he went away
"converted."  It's not often that happens.  Maybe we should get the
tailor to talk to Arf.  (Hi, Arfie!)

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________