HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fierro@uts.amdahl.com (Doug Fierro)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:38:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <LSR=JzB@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
>In article <louis.724011004@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca>, louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth) writes:
>
>Concerning your allusion to 'MacJobs', I give you information from
>the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics concerning job creation in the
>U.S. during the 80's:
>
>  Jobs Created
>  Jan. 1982-1989 {Expansion Only}
>
>              Number          Percentage	  1989 Median
>Job Category  Number (mils.)  Increase	     Earnings.
>
>Managerial/
>Professional   7.600          33.1%         $32,873
>Production     2.194          19.0%         $25,831
>Technical      6.630          21.8%         $20,905
>Operators      1.374           8.2%         $19,886
>Services       2.210          16.8%         $14,858
>Farming       -0.116          -3.7%         $13,539
>
>Total         19.892          20.3%         $23,333
>
>
>James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
>University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
>Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943         


  So does this include the jobs lost during the '80s as well?  I wonder
what the "Expansion Only" alludes to.

  BTW, the recession didn't start until 1990.  Does anyone have 1992 stats?

  Doug
-- 
                                                     Doug Fierro
                                      |\             UTS System Software
  O                         __________|_\______      CASE tools development
  \_.______________________| * * * * * * * * */      fierro@uts.amdahl.com
 __\____                   |=================/       (408)746-7102
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Forecast Data
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:20:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu



Am looking for Forecast Data macro aggregates, preferably electronic and cheap
. Would be happy to share sources. I have acess to Citibase, which has 
some forecast data and am familiar with IMF World Economic Outlook and
the US Statistical Bulletin, which has many private forecasts.
-- 
"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that     
    distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            
                      Kenneth Boulding                             

					All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
						david@cats.ucsc.edu.
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: raphael@fx.com (Glen Raphael)
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Organization: FXD/Telerate, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:31:10 GMT

Lyle_Seaman@transarc.com writes:

>Re:  the sale of a product in an export market at a price (E) lower than
>the price of the same product in the domestic market (D): (E < D).

>What prevents an enterprising soul from purchasing the exported
>product and re-importing it into the domestic market at a price
>midway between the two original prices ( E < G < D ) and keeping the
>difference between E and G?   

In the US it's called a "customs service". It has guns and the
authorization to seize shipments. It enforces what are known as "quotas"
and "tariffs" to keep out foreign suppliers. For example, the U.S. doesn't
allow its citizens to purchase any foreign butter or Canadian ice cream.

>Can you say "restrictive trade laws?"   Ok, sure, I knew you could.

>Can you say "smuggling?" "Gray Market?"  "Black Market?"

>So why don't we see the latter happening in Japan?  Is it, and I'm
>just ignorant?

Lots of smuggling goes on in both directions; that's what a customs
service is for. We in the US pay THREE TIMES the world market rate for
sugar; that's an arbitrage opportunity. For a while people made a killing
buying sugar abroad, making iced-tea mix, shipping it into the US, refining
the sugar back out and selling it at the inflated price. So we had to
instute huge tariffs on products with sugar content as well and the game
goes on. Leaving a trail of dead and damaged US industries in its wake, of
course. At the world market rates, corn syrup is uncompetitive with sugar
as a sweetener, but Coke and Pepsi had to switch to it to stay competitive.
How do our local candy manufacturers do on the world market? More poorly
than they might have done...

Incidentally, the same model of automobile often costs as much as 45% more
in the US than it does in Japan, due mostly to U.S. import quotas and
tariffs. Thus, smuggling operations would be more profitable from Japan
*into* the US than out of it.

>Lyle		Transarc		707 Grant Street

Glen Raphael
raphael@fx.com
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: An American strategy for world trade
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:20:24 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <louis.724185334@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca> louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth) writes:

|2.  Establish *something like* the Japanese MITI, the Ministry of
|    International Trade and Industry.  but American in conception 
|    and implementation.

MITI's greatest success has been in self promotion.  If you look at the
entire record, not just the advertised successes, you will find that MITI
has been an abject failure.
Below, you mention HDTV and microelectronics, let me talk about these two
further.
HDTV, seeing an opportunity to further dominate the TV market, MITI pushed
manufacturers to invest billions in developing several HDTV systems.  These
systems are analog based since that was the best technology at the time.
The american companies decided to bide their time.  Now the americans and
the europeans are designing systems using digital technology that promises
to blow the pants of the Japanese systems.  The Japanase systems are closer
to market, but so what.  Their systems were obsolete before they were
installed and will never be installed anywhere outside of Japan.

Microelectronics.  MITI thought that if Japan were to become the dominant
player in the DRAM market, they could use the profits and knowledge to
lever a takeover of the other sectors of the microelectronics markets.
This did not happen.  At one time, one of the most expensive portions of
your PC was the memory, now it is almost an after thought.
The knowledge of how to make faster and cheaper memory chips has led to
only one thing, faster and cheaper memory chips.  The Japanese were
unable to take what they learned making DRAM's and apply it to things
like programmable array's and CPU's.  These high level chips are where
the value is inside your PC, America leads in these areas, and our lead
is increasing.
Meanwhile the Koreans and others are doing to the Japanese, what the Japanese
did to the US.  They are becoming the low cost producers of commodity
parts.

|5.  Put some rules on all foreign investment.  Welcome it, but not at
|    the expense of US jobs.

How do you think foreign investment hurts US jobs.

-- 
Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.legal
From: mpolen@suntory.mti.sgi.com (Mike Polen)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
Subject: Re: Inflation (Was: Re: GM Plant Closures...)
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:38:39 GMT
Reply-To: mpolen@suntory.mti.sgi.com (Mike Polen)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: suntory.mti.sgi.com

mike) writes:
|> 
|> Back to labor.  I would simply approach you with this model:
|> 
|> -- There is an economy of 100 workers.
|> 
|> Suppose that all 100 of them are employed for $5.00/hr (I suppose this because
|> of your theory of having all workers in sufficient demand.  I would prefer
|> have 4 or 5 percent unemployment).  Anyhow, if I am one of these workers and
|> I see that the workforce is at complete employment, I see that there exists
|> sufficient demand for labor that I can demand a wage increase.  Since my
|> boss needs my labor he is forced to give me $6.00/hr.  (In my ideal economy
|> he could have talk me to take a hike, because 3 or 4 percent of the workforce
|> is unemployed and *any* of those people would have been happy to take my
|> place at $5.00/hr).  Ok, so I got my raise.  This is clear increase in
|> input costs which will be passed on to....the final product.
|> 
|> Now, we have inflated the costs of two things: my labor, and the final product.
|> Inflation has occured and the Fed has not printed a single dollar.
|> 
|> Oh, by the way, in my model I mentioned that I was biding up the price of
|> labor to $6.00/hr.  I would point out that most of my co-workers would 
|> probably do the same thing, and labor prices would rise.  They would
|> continue to rise because or "boss" has no alternative labor to ask him
|> to work (becuase they're 0% unemployment, remember).  We would continue to
|> bid up wages until we reached an equilibrium, which could not likely occur
|> until unemploy existed.
|> 
|> I would like to reiterate that inflation occured without any increase in the
|> supply of money.
|> 
Your assumption, based upon such a small community, assumes that your
employer is a monopolistic supplier of a product.  In reality, your
employer would not be able to pass on the costs, because competitors
are still only paying $5.00/hr.  Prices are not based upon costs, but
upon what the market is willing to (or can afford) to pay. 

Your employer would have to decrease his own profits or someone else's
salary.  No inflation occurs.  

This is how salary is used to reward performance. You
become worth $6 and someone else becomes worth $4. Extra prospective
employees (unemployment) take away your opportunity to ask for wages
commensurate with your performance.

-- 
These opinions are usually my own, sometimes my dog's,
occasionaly my (grown) children's, never my employer's.
Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.legal
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Dumping
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:15:29 GMT

In article <d3cS03iRc2Ao00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> fierro@uts.amdahl.com (Doug Fierro) writes:
>  This is a good example of how thinking differs from Japan compared to
>the U.S. - "if our debt is attractive".  You assume that all they want to
>do is make a quick buck (or yen).  Doesn't it bother you in the least bit
>that future U.S. growth is highly dependent on foreign countries buying
>out debt?  What if Japan just decided not to renew their bonds/T-bills/whatever
>after they were due?  

It's not a Japanese decision, it's a decision of thousands of individual
investors.  Some of whom happen to be Japanese.

>What if they wanted the cash instead of rolling it
>over?  Do you realize what a crunch that would put on investment?   

Rates would go up a percent or two, and then drop down to about half
a percent above what they are now, as the increase in interest rates
increases demand to the point where markets clear.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Date: 13 Dec 92 22:47:40 GMT

I don't consider the interchange between James Douglas Del-Vecchio) and
cogsdell@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (tony c) to be particularly fruitful, but
there is a point to consider.  Japan has long protected its home market
from foreign competition to enable it's strategic industries (and many
that are not strategic) to get up to speed in technology and market
share.  An example cited in Lester Thurow's book, "Head to Head," is
of the television satellite industry.  

``If Japanese firms are not yet prepared to compete, foreign firms are
head at bay.  Satellite television is such an industry at the moment.
To give the domestic industry time to get organized, the Ministry of
Post and Telecommunications *prohibits its citizens* [emphasis added]
from having the dishes necessary to receive satellit signals from
foreign broadcasts.''  Reference:  Yuko Inque, "CNN Blockage in Japan
Stirring Criticism," _The Japan Economic Journal_ May 11, 1991, p.1.

So, as in so many other industries where the US had the overwhelming
technological lead, US firms are forbidden to compete in the Japanese
home market while the Japanese companies copy and perfect (and improve
in many cases) the American technology until they are ready to take 
over the industry, worldwide.

The Americans stood idly by and let them do it.  I don't think the
Europeans will.  European governments, at least on the continent, put
high wage, high skill, employment of their people as a high priority,
as do the Japanese.  No wonder a new best seller in France is ``50
Honorable Reason to Detest Japan.''

--
Louis Schmittroth louis@cs.athabascau.ca
NW 1/4 18 67 21 W4 Alberta.  
Xref: sparky sci.econ:9356 misc.legal:21318
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.legal
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:33:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Dec13.203301.10259
Organization: Western Washington University


cogsdell@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (tony c) writes:

>In article <L8Q=F##@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
>>I personally don't care if the U.S. has a flat-screen industry or
>>not.  I want the cheapest, highest quality product available, regardless
>>of where it is made.

>You just don't get it do you???????
>There is a lot more to this picture than the 'wants' of greedy little 
>consumers.

	Ha ha ha.  I see.  Producers are not here to serve the wants
of consumers, it it is the other way around:  consumers exist to 
serve the wants of producers.  How silly of jwh to get that mixed
up.

>e.g.  " I don't care if America has an auto industry or not"     
>The above statement is just about as rediculous as the one you've made.
>Some Americans think the world owes them somthing; Why would the japanese
>sell you a car at a reasonable price if they were the only ones to make them?
>Why would anyone?

	Some producers think the world owes them something.   Why would
somebody buy anything from you unless you make the best for the price
or the cheapest for the quality?
Why would anyone?   

The answer is that they wouldn't, unless they are forced to, and 
you shouldn't expect them to.

>When idustry leaves a country so does its knowledge base.  Selfish American
>consumers(with your attitude) will have homes full of foreign goods, bought on
>credit, with no jobs or money to pay the bills.  

	Why would a bank give them credit if they have no jobs or no
money?  Why would anyone?   What a utopia the US would be if it were
populated by selfless slaves, rather thnan those stinking selfish
consumers.  In such a heaven, producers could make shoddy goods, set 
high prices, tell people to buy them, and selflessly, they would.

>I suggest you read the Wall Street Journal more often, better yet, there
>is an article on the Japanese and their strategies availible via FTP. 
>monu6.cc.monash.edu.au   in   pub/nihongo     (anonymous ftp)

>If you are too lazy and complacent to do some basic research that will
>allow you to discuss a topic in an intelligent and informed manner, I 
>suggest you spare the rest of us your 'opinions' . 

	Ditto for you my friend.  Opinions are like assholes.  

[re junk bonds were a boon to both those seeking capital for risky
endeavors, and for investors who chose to take on risky investments.]

>Get a Life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>I'm sorry to be so mean but it upsets me to read such ignorance.

Try this in your kill file: 
cogsdell@mentor.cc.purdue.edu 

You'll sleep easier.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: s462075d@edinboro.edu
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Trade Deficit
Date: 12 Dec 92 14:15:58 GMT
 <1992Dec4.155214.26523@midway.uchicago.edu> <ccD903kDc0TM00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>
Organization: Edinboro University of PA

In article <ccD903kDc0TM00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, fierro@uts.amdahl.com (Doug Fierro) writes:
> In article <1992Dec4.155214.26523@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec4.140822.11757@linus.mitre.org> bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) writes:

>>>     An other false claim, most often made by Japanese trade
>>>representatives, states that it is naturally expected that Japan has a
>>>trade surplus with America. This is because if every Japanese bought $100
>>>of goods from America, and every American bought $100 worth of goods from
>>>Japan, an imbalance would occur in Japan's favor as there are twice as
>>>many Americans as Japanese in the world.

It also means they are that much more productive than us.


>>>This is a mathematical fallacy. To see more clearly this picture,
>>>imagine a world with 2 countries, one with 100 citizens, and an other with
>>>1 citizen, you. Each person has $200 to their name. Every year you buy
>>>$100 of goods from the other country, and each of their citizens buy $100
>>>of goods from your country. If you work out this example, you will see
>>>that in a little over 2 years, you will have accumulated all of the money
>>>in the world and the other country will be penniless. This is the current
>>>state of affairs between Japan and its trading partners. Although things
>>>are actually occurring more slowly, this is the trend.
 
The only problem with this translating to the real world is that "new" money
is always being created in the form of new products, services, etc.


>   My question then is where the hell are all these extra dollars going
> if the Japanese only accept Yens for their goods?  Do world banks just
> sit on them?
> 
>   Doug
> -- 

Well, Doug, they go into:

The purchase of Rockefeller Center,
The purchase of MGM, Columbia Pictures, etc,
The purchase of California banks,
The purchase of California & Hawiian real estate,
Other purchases of real (i.e.: land) American property.

And this only makes the total account deficit worse over time!


_/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\_
|Shawn Duffy    Edinboro University of PA,     United States of America     | 
| s462075d@edinboro.edu/ A student in need of a job/Go Steelers-Cowher Power|
|               "We've upped our standards, so up yours."                   |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:22:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <Mf=sbt30BwwbI4Vvts@transarc.com> Lyle_Seaman@transarc.com writes:
>mkohlhaa@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mike) writes:
>>   nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>   >The correct solution to having good working conditions and good
>>   >worker treatment is to have an economy that's strong enough
>>   >so it generates so many jobs that workers are always in demand.  
>> 
>>   Isn't that what causes increased labor prices which leads to run-away
>> inflation?
>
>Yes.  It has happened in various parts of the US, from time to time.
>In NH in 1984, unemployment was about 2% (maybe 3% -- at any rate,
>this is effectively zero). People loaded their families into, and 
>strapped their belongings to the rooves of, their '68 Buicks and left 
>places like Indiana, Oklahama or Michigan to move to Massachusetts.
>Some of them made it, some of them broke down in Pennsylvania.
>People came from Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Mexico, NY.
>
>I almost dropped out of college to take a job programming computers 
>(but I had a girlfriend at college -- wotta reason for a decision!).
>
>Burger King franchises in Southern NH were paying $7.50 / hr for
>burger-flippers.  High-school students were working 3 jobs in order to
>pay for multiple automobiles.

  Okay.   And what happened?   Was there massive inflation?  Were
  Whoppers (the Burger King hamburg) suddenly twice as expensive
  to cover their huge increase in labor costs?   

  And what happened in the long run?   During the 1980's when there
  was a boom here (Massachusetts, souther new Hampshire) house 
  prices shot way up.   And not they've shot way back down again
  -- my house is worth about $40K less than we paid for it, and
  the unemployment rate in this region is 8.5%.    

  So the point is that the stuff you're talking about is self
  correcting; it's not sustainable.


>The _correct_ solution (to provide good working conditions and worker
>treatment) is for workers to own the companies they work for, so they
>can reap the fruits of their own actions. 

  Well, I own HP stock.  

  With large companies "ownership" is usually an abstraction for
  most workers -- there's too little direct connection between the 
  ownership, the performance of the company, and their day-to-day
  activities for this to be meaningful.
             

---peter
From: canright@convex.com (Robert Canright)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Declining Intro Enrolments
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:07:59 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Having an interest in economics, now that I see how money is one of the
most important factors in engineering projects, I asked a professional
economist about a good intro textbook.  He told me not to waste my time &
to go directly into micro & macro-economics textbooks.

If the intro texts truly are a waste of time, maybe the classes are too.
From: cgd@eden.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Chris G. Demetriou)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,ucb.org.csua
Subject: Re: SODA, SUPER HEROS AND OUR INTERNET (branch)
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:35:55
Organization: Kernel Hackers 'r' Us
Distribution: ucb
	<c164-aa.724286732@po.berkeley.edu> <1ggg38INNfla@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eden.cs.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: hh@soda.berkeley.edu's message of 13 Dec 1992 23:13:44 GMT

hh:  how about this:

post/send us (me too; i want one) a postscript copy!

that way we can look at it with ghostscript!

Chris
--
Chris G. Demetriou                                    cgd@cs.berkeley.edu

"Sometimes it is better to have twenty million instructions by
        Friday than twenty million instructions per second." -- Wes Clark