From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Christians Are Not Christian
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:04:25 GMT

> From: ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W)
> To all foaming-at-the-mouth Mormon haters (You know who you are):
>
> Give me a break!  Do you really think God wants us fighting about Jesus?  This
> sounds more like something Satan would want us to do.  Listen to yourselves:
> 	"You're not a Christian!  You're not a Christian!  Neener, neener,
> neener.  You're not a Christian!
>
> I'm new in this newsgroup.  I stopped by to see if I could receive some light
> and truth.  Instead all I get is this devilish wrangling.  Repent, or Jesus
> will be unhappy with you.
>
> So what if the Mormons are making an honest mistake?

        Concerning how 'honest' the LDS mistakes are, I would like to
ask you: Who is the 'father god' of the LDS trinity?  And, do you
believe it is possible to enter heaven while believing in a false god?
Is it reasonable to you that an organization would lead people to a god
other than Jehovah, while professing to be the only true form of
Christianity, with all others being lost?

        Recently I was reading the Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's
speech, which he delivered at a BYU devotional, in 1982.  This speech
was in response to a fad which was sweeping the campus, due to a certain
book being circulated by George Pace.  This book, titled 'What it means
to know Christ', states in the foreword that people should 'center their
lives in Christ and ... develop their own personal relationship with
Him.'

        Mormon Apostle McConkie attacked George Pace's book, and
referred to the need to gain a special relationship with Christ as
'false and vain and foolish' [1] and attributed it, and the 'false
feelings' induced by it, as a work of the Devil. [2] He continued to
refer to this concept as summarizing the ...

  'chief and greatest heresy of Christendom.  Truly the most evil heresy
  ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their creedal
  concept of God and the Godhead!' [3]

        In his attempt to diminish the concept of a personal
relationship with Christ, McConkie stated,

  'We worship the Father and him only and no one else.  We do not
  worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost.  I know
  perfectly well what the spriptures say about worshipping Christ and
  Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense ...
  Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first,
  the Creator.' [4]

        Before I continue with McConkie's speech, I would like to point
out that in the LDS, Jehovah is Jesus, and is not the 'father'.  In the
1981 edition of the LDS scriptures (the LDS KJV) it says,

  'Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of
  Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10). Although
  Ex. 6:3 states that the God of Israel was not known by the name
  Jehovah before Moses' time, latter-day revelation tells us otherwise
  (Abr. 1;16; 2:8; cf. JST Ex. 6:3; see also Gen. 22;14).

        This can be found on page 711, and tells us that Jehovah is
Jesus Christ in pre-existence.  This again is stated more succinctly in
_Mormon Doctrine_, 'Christ is Jehovah; they are one and the same
Person.' pg.392.  _Articles of Faith_ echo this teaching, in _The Father
and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition_. where James Talmadge tells us,

  '... God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted
  name-title "Elohim," is the literal parent of our Lord and Saviour
  Jesus Christ, and the spirits of the human race. ... '
  '... With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah
  who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim. ...'
  '... the solemn fact of the literal relationship of the Father and Son
  between Elohim and Jesus Christ.  Among the spirit children of Elohim
  the firstborn was and is Jehovah...'

        From this, we can see, when McConkie says 'We worship the Father
and him only and no one else', he is talking about someone entirely
different than Jehovah.  This is extremely difficult to accept when we
consider the First Commandment, 'I am Jehovah thy God, ... thou shalt
have no other gods before me.' Ex. 20:2.  Or, Ex 34:14, 'For thou shalt
worship no other god, for Jehovah, whose name is jealous, is a jealous
God.'  In fact, Jesus Himself qouted this very same message to Satan in
MT 4:10.

        If there is any doubt as to what Mormon Apostle McConkie is
saying, we find again the concept of Jehovah not being the 'father',
when he says,

  'Christ [Jehovah] worked out his own salvation by worshipping the
  Father [Elohim].' [5]

        To believe Jehovah bowed himself to another god is very
difficult to comprehend in light of Psalm 97:9 'For thou, Jehovah, are
high above all the earth; thou are exalted far above all gods.'  Psalm
135:5: 'For I know that Jehovah is great, and our Lord is above all
gods.'  Mormon Apostle McConkie continues by saying,

  'Our relationship with the Father [Elohim] is supreme, paramount, and
  pre-eminent over all others.  He is the God we worship.  It is this
  gospel that saves and exalts. ... if there were some need --- which
  there is not! --- to single out one member of the Godhead for a
  special relationship, the Father [Elohim], not the son [Jehovah],
  would be the one to choose' [6]

        If anyone doubts the doctrinal weight McConkies' words carry, he
tells us at the begining of this speech, 'I shall expound the doctrine
of the Church...' [7]  In fact, at the time McConkie stated the Mormon
position so clearly, he had been an Apostle for almost 10 years, and
previous to that, a member of the First Council of Seventy for 16 years.

        I began to wonder about Mormon Apostle McConkie's words,
concerning Jesus being Jehovah, while the father is a differnt god named
'Elohim'. Also, I wondered who this 'Elohim' was, when the Bible states
so plainly,

  'I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside
   me.' Isa. 45:5.
  'before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.'
   Isa 43:10.

        Turning to McConkie's Mormon publication, _The Promised
Messiah_, I find,

  'The fact is, and Holy Writ so avers, that the three members of the
  Godhead are separate and distinct Persons; that they have their own
  bodies, occupy identifiable space, and are in one place only at a
  given time.
  Being thus aware of how far astray the religious intellectualists have
  gone in defining their three-in-one God, it comes as no surprise to
  learn that they thrash around in the same darkness in trying to
  identify Elohim and Jehovah and to show their relationship to the
  promised Messiah.  Some sectarians even believe that Jehovah is the
  Supreme Deity whose Son came into mortality as the Only Begotten.  As
  with their concept that God is a Spirit, this misinformation about the
  Gods of heaven is untrue.  The fact is, and it too is attested by Holy
  Writ, that Elohim is the Father, and that Jehovah is the Son who was
  born into mortality as the Lord Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah.'
  _The Promised Messiah_ p. 100

        In the preceeding, we have the statement from Mormon Apostle
McConkie that to identify the "Supreme Deity" as Jehovah is "untrue" and
shows that one is "thrashing around" in "darkness."  In the same passage
McConkie repeats his (famous) "interpretation" of Psalm 110:1 as used by
the Lord at Matthew 22:41-46.  McConkie, writing for the Mormons, says,

  'Can there be any question as to how Jesus is interpreting the words
   of the Psalm?  He is saying that it means:  `The Father said unto the
   Son, Elohim said unto Jehovah, sit thou on my right hand, until after
   your mortal ministry...'

        Yes, there is a *GREAT* question that this is the true meaning;
surely no one who knew Psalm 110:1 in Hebrew would have gathered
McConkie's meaning, that's for certain.  "Jehovah was speaking to
Adonai," not "Elohim speaking to Jehovah."  All of the Lord's hearers
knew that "Jehovah Elohim" was the only true God; they never dreamed
that Elohim was an exalted man who had given birth to Jehovah!  Anyway,
later on we read:

  'Our Lord, who is the Firstborn spirit child of the Eternal Elohim, is
  himself also the Eternal One.  Implicit in his spirit birth as the
  Firstborn is the fact that, as with all the spirit children of the
  Father, he had a beginning; there was a day when he came into being as
  a conscious identity, as a spirit entity, as an organized
  intelligence'(p. 165).

        So, here we have the idea of Jehovah 1) being the spirit child
of the "Eternal Elohim," and 2) Jehovah having an origin in time.
Obviously, then, prior to the birth of Jehovah, Elohim would not ever be
identified as "Jehovah," would he?  The separateness of Elohim and
Jehovah with reference to person is a constant theme of McConkie.  For
example, on page 294 he says, "It presupposes that the Father is one
person, the Son another."  Anyway, we also read in McConkie:

  'In our present Old Testament, Christ is called the Lord, which is the
  anglicized rendition of Jehovah.  Thus, Christ is Jehovah. Our
  Messianic studies would fall far short of the mark if we were not
  keenly aware that these two great name-titles apply to one and the
  same person.  Such is shown repetitiously throughout this work (p.
  306).

        Please note that these two great name-titles "apply to ONE and
the SAME person...."  In fact, McConkie said that it is "false" to
believe that Jehovah is the Father, and he said this with reference to
the interpretation of the Scriptures.  Note page 358:

  `Ye are the children of the Lord your God,' that is, of Jehovah your
  God, Moses proclaimed to Israel.   Even if it were falsely supposed
  that Jehovah was the Father and not the Son, as some sectarian
  Christians do believe, still it would be apparent that this statement
  could not be a reference to the preexistence of spirits...

        And when McConkie begins to present the idea that God the
Father, was the literal physical parent of Jesus Christ, he again
identifies the Father as Elohim (p. 467).  I see no conflict at all
between what McConkie says and what we find in the LDS dictionary:

  'Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of
  Mary (see Mosiah 13:28; 15:1; 3 Ne. 15:1-5; D&C 110:1-10).

  'Possibly the best known use of El is in Elohim, plural form
  signifying the "almighty" or "omnipotent," a name applied to the
  Father.

        Finally, in the LDS doctrine of the creation, Jehovah is
instructed by Elohim to "organize" the earth, which Jehovah does in
company with Michael the Archangel.  Obviously, this is the Father
speaking to the Son --  Elohim, one God, speaking to Jehovah, another,
and lesser (temporally speaking) God.  Again, McConkie on the 'seperate'
natures of Jehovah, and the Mormon 'Elohim father god',

  'God is and can be known only by revelation; the wisdom of the wise
  does not make him manifest, and all the conjecture and debate as to
  how this or that ancient name-title should be translated is as naught
  compared to one plain inspired utterance. These utterances we have,
  and because of them we know what was meant by the ancient prophets
  when they spoke of him under his name Jehovah.  The Almighty has such
  names as he has, and these are known to man only when he reveals them.
  We shall now, by way of illustration only and without any attempt at
  comprehensive coverage, note some of the revealed truths showing that
  Jehovah and Christ are one and the same person, the Eternal Son of the
  Eternal Father (p. 101).

        Two distinct persons, Jehovah the Christ, the Son of the Eternal
Father.  No mixture of the "names" here at all, is there?  And McConkie
asserts that we have "inspired utterances" to indicate to us who Jehovah
is.  And what was it he says on page 122?  "The whole Old Testament is
most explicit that the Deity in whose name the ancient prophets spoke
was Jehovah, NOT ELOHIM" (emph. mine).


        Again, back to your concerns about the honesty of the LDS
mistakes: do you beleive the Mormons have been guilty, through their
'truth restored', of leading others to 'another god'?  I have already
presented a few Biblical passages dealing with the graveness of the LDS
leading us to this 'other' god.  I would like to cover the Biblical
position a bit more.

        As I said earlier, the concept of worshipping another god, other
than Jehovah, as Mormon Apostle McConkie has explained as doctrine of
the LDS Church, violates the very first Commandment.  In Ex. 20:2 we
learn, 'I am Jehovah, thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.'
This command is repeated in Deut. 5:6.

        In fact, this first commmandment is the foundation of the
'Shema'. The Shema is the confession of faith, recited by Jews morning
and evening. Before the 2nd century AD it consisted of Deut. 6.4. and
was named for the first word of the confession, '_Hear_, O Israel,
Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;'  This confession was beleived to be the
minimum study of the Torah -- that there is only one God.  This passage
continues, 'and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.'

        Did the 'Shema' sound familiar to you?  It should because Jesus
affirmed it to be the great command, and qouted it in in Mark 12:28-34.
You can understand why the Mormon doctrine is so foriegn -- that Jesus
is Jehovah, while the father is some other god named 'Elohim'.  Not only
did Jesus recite the 'Shema', but the scribe repeated it back to Him
causing Jesus to respond 'Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.'
Funny, that Jesus would not have taken the opportunity to straighten out
the bit of confusion the LDS claim we are all in.  (Remember McConkie's
words? trashing around in darkness?)

        One other thing to note, right after Jesus's recitation of the
great 'Shema', he qoutes Psalm 110.1, the Messianic prophecy which
places Jehovah in the position of Father, speaking to the Son.  This is
the passage which McConkie translated as 'Elohim said to Jehovah', when
in fact it says, 'Jehovah said to Adonai'.  I, myself, have to wonder
why the Mormon Apostle would resort to such subterfuge, while at the
same time stating that the Christian world is thrashing in darkness.

        I would also like to point out, while we are on the subject of
Jesus, and who he claimed to be, (in relation to the Father): In Mark
8:54 Jesus said to the Pharisees, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is
nothing: it is my Father who glorifies me, whom ye say, He is our God.'
Lets put on our thinking caps for a moment, who did Jesus just say his
Father was?  His Father is who the Pharisees claim is their God.  The
only God the Pharisees would know about is the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob -- Jehovah.  I am sure you will agree that the following is a
great prophecy of the work of the Messiah:

  'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his
  own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.'
  _Is. 53:6_

        Who has laid on the Messiah the iniquity of us all?  Jehovah
has. If the Messiah is the Son, then who is Jehovah?  The Father, of
course. Was'nt it the Mormon Apostle McConkie who asserted we are
'thrashing in darkness' for thinking like that?

        As aditional material: Ex. 34:14, 'For thou shalt worship no
other god; for Jehovah, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God.'  Isa.
43:10, 'Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have
chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand the I am he;
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.'
Who do the Mormons teach Jehovah is?, a creation of something called
'Elohim'.

        Again, Isaiah says in 44:6-8, `Thus saith Jehovah, ... I am the
first, and the last, and beside me there is no God.'  In fact, in this
same passage, Jehovah calls Israel his 'witnesses' and asks the
question: 'Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not
any.'  If I were to beleive the Mormon gospel, I would be forced to
conclude God led his people to be false witnesses.  God repeats this in
Isaiah 45:5-6, concluding 'I am Jehovah, and there is none else.'  Isaih
45:18, 'I am Jehovah, and there is non else.'  Isaiah 45:21-22, 'There
is no God beside me, a just God and a savior; there is none beside me.
.. For I am God, and there is none else.'  Isaiah 46:9-10, 'I am God,
and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me...'

    I am sorry if this is getting repetitious, but thats the way God
gave it to us.  The idea of following another god is serious business.
Based on what we have covered so far, do you really think the Mormons
are justified in saying,

  'There is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of
  Latter-day Saints'.  _Mormon Doctrine_, pg.670.

        Where do you think Mormon Apostle McConkie was coming from when
he attributed the creeds of Christendom to 'Lucifer'? 'evil concepts'
which lead to damnation?  As far as I can tell, Christendom has had a
pretty good handle on the identity of God, while the makers of 'truth
restored' have ocsillated from Brigham Young's teaching that Adam is
God, the Father of Jesus Christ, to the Talmadge-era 'out of thin air'
god.

        You may be tempted to begin relying on your testimony -- that
you know in your heart that the teachings of the LDS are true.  I know
you have prayed about the BoM -- if it is not true,  and you feel you
received a confirmation.  I would ask you to consider Ezekial 14:4-11
concerning how God will answer us if we come before Him with an idol in
our hearts.

Mark
<standard disclaimer>

[1] McConkie, March 2, 1982, typed copy, pg. 2
    (available from Lighthouse Ministries 801-485-8894)
[2] ibid, pg.3.
[3] ibid, pg.3.
[4] ibid, pg.5
[5] ibid, pg.8.   bracketed material added for clarity.
[6] ibid, pg.16-17. bracketed material added for clarity.
[7] ibid, pg.1


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