From: indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: Re: RSS ( MP Government's Silent revolution in Education)
Originator: indu@iss700
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 15:30:19 GMT

>Article: 83150 of soc.culture.indian
>From: paulchem@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Icarus)
>Subject: Some Comments [RSS : Silent Revolution etc.]
>Lines: 162



>
>
>1] Your posts regarding what the R.S.S has been doing in madhya pradesh
>   have been interesting to say the least. Your personal experiences with
>   the leadership of the R.S.S. may have been very good and you may have
>   found the people you met to be very inspiring. Most good leaders are
>   charismatic personalities and often believe in what they are doing.
>   They would not be effective leaders otherwise.

  TRUE! But what  is more inspiring in RSS is one really doesnot find
  "leaders". It is an average volunteer who has this character
  and personality. If you find one leader or a bunch of leadres then RSS would
  be like any other organisation. But RSS is different, and the difference 
  is just THIS.  Nothing else. In fact there are some more organisations with
  similar ideologies but the approach of RSS is unique.
>
>   I have known several people who have been active members of the R.S.S.
>   during my college years and they have been and still remain some of my
>   best friends.
    I hope you also would be having similar experiences and know what I'm 
    trying to say.

>
>   Strength of Faith in a principle or Ideology does not make it automatically
>   good or just. Nor is personal conviction a means of verifying the truth of
>   a dogma. There are probably some people in the R.S.S. who are motivated by
>   the need to "Build India Again.", whose chests swell with pride when they
>   imagine the rows opon rows of young enthusiastic souls marching under one
>   unified banner, breaking down the obstacles, restoring the pride in our 
>   past and forging one nation stepping boldly into the 21st century.
>   I am, frankly, one of the many people who hopes to see such a time.

                 TRUE. But I would like to add not only just Young enthusiatic 
    souls nut from every walk of Indian life.

>2] You implicitly support the rewriting of history books that is taking
>   place in M.P. 

    If you want my explicit support here it is, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY SUPPORT
    IT. ( jest  jumour)

>   Arungzeb, must be cut to size, MahaRana Pratap must be glorified.
>   The Golden Age of the Guptas must be emphasised, the biographies of
>   Marx, Christ  and the Buddha must be dropped.

    If you read the article carefully, you will notice that nothing about 
    CHRIST, BUDDHA has been specified. It is just a comment or remark made
    by a politician belonging to the opposition party at state level(who 
    incidentally happens to be a central Govt. minister). 

    As for other things, It is not cutting Aurangazeb to size, but to 
    give a true picture. Rather than glorifying his acts.

>   History, is something that must have only one guiding principle: Truth.
>   You qoute the Sarnath Emblem, to say "Satyam Eva Jayathe", and use it
>   to say that the wrongs that the muslim invaders did to the populace 
>   must be corrected for. 
>   And what is the truth ?
>   Did Ashoka or the Chandraguptas or Maharana Pratap win their wars by
>   convincing their enemies over friendly discussions ?

    In case of ChandraGupta and RanaPratap there was no case Strong oppressing
    the weak. These were the protectors and the Greeks, MUGHALS were Invaders.
    Where is the case of friendly discussions and over what?

>   What the mughals and the other invaders did was what the strong have
>   always done to the weak.

                       TRUE!

>   It is what Ashoka did to the thousands that he slaughtered.
>   It is what China has done and is doing to Tibet.
>   It is what the Germans did to Poland.
>   It is what allowed the British to stand by calmly
>   during the the Great famine of bengal.
>
>   If it was the tyranny of the invader that you seek to demonstrate,
>   why not emphasize the role that Akbar played ?

    TRUE! But just look at what is happening. Glorification of Mughal rule. 
    DISTORTION OF FACTS. INTRODUCTION OF THEORIES WHCIH ARE QUETIONABLE, 
    to impressionable minds. I would also want to see the people who
    were behind these and waht their true motives were.          

   As a matter of fact let  me tell you something, while  I studied in AP board 
    for twelve years, I have neither heard of Muhammed Ghazni or Muhammed Ghori 
    and their attrocities during this period. All I could learn was from some
    books which I read out of my intereset in libraries etc,. The basic thing 
    is YES we need to project facts as facts. AND MUST HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO 
    SO. And that means not only knowing our Glorious past but also to know 
    our weak moments. 

    But what is happening today is NEGATIONAISM. Isn't that wrong?
    If it happened in HISTORY then let it be acknowledged. Why DO WE NEED TO
    HIDE IT, with a motive of appeasement for vote-bank politics. And at the
    cost of Nations Interest. And what does an average student learn out
    of History. 
    No wonder everybody feels, 
      WE DON'T LEARN LESSONS OUR HISTORY TEACHES US.  
      THE FACT IS WE DON"T LEARN OUR HISTORY, TO LEARN SOMETING FROM IT.

    Discounting our leaders, accepting Invasions as a matter-of-fact, trying
    to negate the facts and attrocities of Crusades. Is it not a fact that 
    millions were converted at the edge-of-the-sword? Lakhs of women, old, 
    and children - CIVILIANS - were killed. Destruction of culture centres.
    THESE ARE FACTS. BUT HAVE THEY ATLEAST BEEN HINTED? So, now we have a 
    generation who learn about these things on s.c.i (if one has access )
    when somebody raises a controversy (again not all, but there are 
    these people too)

       IT STARTS WITH BEING CURIOUS, TO FIND THE MASALA ELEMENT. AND THUS WE GET
    TO KNOW OUR-HISTORY thru some small bits and pieces. 
    NOT A REAL ACADEMIC  APPROACH.

>   There is no point in beating around the bush here.
>   What is implicit in this rewriting of history is not the tyranny of 
>   any ruler but his religion.

    Where is the religious element in deleting Biography of Marx from
    a Class FIVE text book meant for TEN year olds?         

    Where is the religious element in Rana Pratap opposing Mughal Invasion? 

    Where is the religious element in Shivaji's opposition of MUGHAL rule?
    And in CHANGRAGUPTAS defending INDIA from GREEKS?

    It is more of National Integration in Practice when a student in Madhya
    Pradesh gets Inspiration from  Maharashtrian King or a Rajasthani Ruler.
    IT IS THE ESSENCE OF THIS RE-WRITING. 

    I wish they also Introduce  about a Bankim Chandra, Subhramanya Bharati,
    Krishna Devaraya, a Guru Gobind Singh, and the galaxy of our Indian 
    leaders. I want the new generation to learn what I missed. An I commend
    the MP Government on that.

>
>   Face up to the truth.
>   India was invaded and came under foreign rule and the influence of
>   foreign dominion because India and its rulers where unable to stay 
>   united or lacked the military strength to repulse the invader.
>   If you choose to blame these invasions on the evil nature of the
>   mughals and mohammed of ghazni, then you fall into the trap of trying
>   to change an immutable past.

    IT IS NOT THE OBJECTIVE OF re-writing of History. It is exactly what you 
    said, learning the mistakes we have committed in the past 1000 years, which
    led to nations slavery  for TEN CENTURIES. And to know those leaders who
    tried to break that and  during these Invasions to show that INDIA enjoyed
    its moments of Glory under these Kings.

    We should know about our glorious past and also of failures. Then we learn
    where we are moving today and what we need to do.

>
>   To qoute Fitzgeralds translation of Omar Khayyam:
>
>   "The moving hand has written, and having writ moves on,
>   all your tears and all your piety, will not wash out one 
>   word of it."
>
>   When a generation of people are brought up on false ideas of past
>   glory, tragedy is the only result.
>   Witness the wars that pakistan has fought with India.
>   No one was more surprised by the results of the 14 day liberation
>   of Bangladesh war, than the pakistani younger generation.
>   A generation fed on the righteousness of 1000 year jihads and Allahs
>   country always winning. One pakistani they said was equal to ten
>   Indians, and Indians did not know how to fight, pakistanis were
>   born of the military races.
>   We have seen excerpts from the history books that are now being used
>   in Pakistan, posted on the net which talk degradingly of India and
>   Indians.

>
>   Rewriting of history is what the German state during world war two
>   And the history that is taught in India even now has a slant that 
>   A cursory reading of John Kenneth Galbraith's

      THE OBJECTIVES FOR THEM WERE NOT TO RE-WRITE   HISTORY TO KNOW THEIR
    TRUE HISTORY BUT TO CREATE A NEW HISTORY. In this case
    it is knowing what has happened in history, without any misrepresentation 
    of FACTS. TO KNOW THE HISTORY ON A AS-IS basis, removing distortions,
    appeasements etc,.

>3] India has managed to avoid the worst pitfalls of religious 
>   fundamentalism that many countries have fallen prey to.

    Unfortunately now we are having minority fundamentalism, in the name
    of Vote banks and corrupt politics.

>
>   We have leap-frogged an age of the Church ruling the State and
>   directly arrived into a secular state, without suffering periods
>   of state sponsored religious favouritism.

    WE WERE SECULAR SINCE BEGINNING. EVERY CITIZEN, irrespective of
    belonging to Minoruty or Majority had the right to follow his own path to
    realise his religious goals. There was never hindrance for that in HINDUISM.
              THAT IS WHAT IS BASIC TENET OF HINDUISM.

>   Now that is being changed, insidiously and we regress into 
>   the past, where we will begin again to think of ourselves as
>   Hindus, Muslims and countless other denominations.

    IN FACT THIS IS TRUE AND STILL REMAINS TRUE. But there is a small 
    correction. HINDUISM is not a religion unlike Christianity, Islam, 
    Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shakteyas, Ganapatyas, etc,. 

    HINDUISM is DHARMA not MATA. MATAM is the true translation of RELIGION and
    viceversa. But there is no reaL english WORD for Dharma.  Hence this 
    confusion.

    So it is not the religios preachings which go on the name of history,
    but knowing about our history and thus  HINDU ideals. After all 
    undivided INDIA is the ONLY HINDU NATION in the world.

>  All religious fundamentalism is backward looking, regardless of 
>  its denomination.


>4] I have no doubts that India has remained secular only because the
>   Majority ie the Hindus have allowed it to remain secular.
>   But that is true of all western countries, where the state religion
>   by all the previous arguments should be Christianity if one went by
>   population alone. Spare a moment to see why modern states have 
>   finally fallen into the secular form of democracy. See why allowing
>   a religion to permeate the state apparatus, slows down social and
>   material progress. 
>
    Modern states have finally settled to secular states, but INDIA had 
    followed it since ages. There lies the difference. 

>
>5] Now coming to the specifics.
>   The deletion of the biographies of Marx and the Buddha and Christ 
>   etc are retrograde moves, because all of them have had a profound 
>   influence on the lives and histories of millions of people. They

    Again, it is not deletion of Christ and Buddha. 
    
>   are part of the worlds history. Denying this fact only shows up
>   the attitude of these rewriters of history to be insular.

    TRUE if what you were saying was happening. It is not denying but
    to keep a youg mind away from the concepts of COMMUNISM. 
    BUT ONE THING IS TRUE. IT IS DENYING A PLACE FOR MARXISM AND COMMUNISM 
    IN THE Indian History Text Books, which very JUST and Right.

    LET THE YOUNG mind know itslef first. WHAT SIGNIFICANCE HAS KARL MARX
    GOT IN THIS WORLD OTHER THAN FAILURE OF HIS PRINCIPLES? And do you
    mean to say that, a child of 10 years age can grasp the Intricacies of 
    Marxism, and their pitfalls? Basically what has Indian system got to do 
    KARL MARX? 
  
    And if we go by the logic of CHILDREN-SHOULD-KNOW the different theories
    and their failures, then we should also cover Naxalism, 
    Arayanism-Dravidanism, Khalistanism, Terrorism, Mafia-ism, Goonda-ism,
    and many other theories (which I don't even know) and their significance
    on the day to day life.

    And what is the Objective? 

    

     
>   A history book that claims to tell the story of the world, and
>   ignores them is as far removed from reality as a textbook, to
>   use a computer friendly example, that studies operating systems
>   without mentioning Dennis and Ritchie.

    What if the Book is a text book on Indian History? And then the 
    Glorification of these theories? A book on Computers when explaining
    to KIDS will not go to the depths of Dennis and Ritchie, or UNIX internals 
    and their intricacies. It does not even go to the details of explaining
    the differnce in various styles of coding or any thing and their effects.

>   This is as wrong and hypocritical as ignoring hinduism as a 
>   world religion or Mahatma Gandhi or Mao as world leaders.

    Atleast accept that Mao was not a world leader.
    AND WHAT HAS MAO GOT TO DO WITH INDIA AND ITS HISTORY. MAO IS CHINA's 
    Current Events or something like that.

    As far a  Gandhi is concerned, WHO IS DISCOUNTING GANDHI's CONTRIBUTION
    TO FREEDOM STRUGGLE? In fact they are also giving a place to other leaders 
    and freedom fighters like Chandra Shekhar Azad, Bhaghat Singh, 
    Veer Savrkar etc,.

    ATLEAST I NEVER HAD AN INTRODUCTION TO THESE LEADERS DURING MY SCHOOLING
    (1975 - 1985)


>   We need to teach children the truth, not what we want to be the
>   truth.

    I would also like to add 
         AND SHOULD ALSO HAVE THE COURAGE TO TEACH THE TRUTH. 

>
>   Regarding the bringing up of children in the tradition that the
>   RSS wants, how is it any different than the generations of russian

    Let us know one fact!
        It is not what RSS is doing. It is MP Government, Vidya  Bharati an
    educational Board which are doing these. Lets proceed.
    

>   children who were taught that Prof. Popov. invented the radio,
>   because Marxism was naturally superior to Capitalism ?
>   How is it any different from what the Jesuits did to generations of
>   catholics ? How is it any different than the often criticised 
>   practice of the Nuns in catholic schools who force children to pray
>   in churches or teach them christian parables suppressing hindu myths ?
    
    The fact is that there is no propoganda or anything like that going on.
    IT IS NOT THE BRINGING UP OF CHILDREN HOW RSS WANTS, BUT BRINGING
    UP OF CHILDREN IN THE INDIAN WAY, WITH INDIAN CAUSE, WITH NATIONALIST
    ORIENTATION. WHAT YOU ARE SEEING TODAY IS THE APING OF WESTERN CULTURES 
    AND WAYS.

>
>   The introduction of vedic math may have some virtue in it, if it is
>   shown to be practical in its application to modern problems.
>   If the advantage to be gained by introducing this system outweighs 
>   the cost of overturning the current methods, than this is a good thing.
>   If on the other hand it is a pointless exercise in nostalgia, it
>   deserves to be laid to rest.

    When some reserach goes then we know whether it is pointless excercise
    in nostalgia or some fruitful effort.  AND THE BASIC OBJECTIVE OF 
    INTRODUCTION TO THESE IS TO KNOW THEM FIRST. Not to know their applications
    to todays Modern Physics. Just the way we learn about Newtonian Mechanics,
    etc. 

>   Atleast the nuns did not force these children to come to their schools.
>   Personally, I condemn any form of religious instruction in a instituition
>   that is not explicitly set up for such a purpose.

    *** w.r.t my observations, this is not applicable ***
    AND A GOVERNMENT HAS A DUTY IN CORRECTING THE WRONGS, whether they happen
    in History or in History Books. IT HAS THE PRIMARY DUTY TO ITS CITIZENS
    TO EDUCATE THEM. AND WITHOUT FEAR OF ANY KIND.

>   
>   What the RSS is attempting to do, is impose a ideology on a whole 
>   populace, by using its influence with the M.P. government.
>
    ITS IDEOLOGY IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT MP GOVERNMENTS VIEWS.
    ITS IDEOLOGY ACHEIVEMENT OF AKHAND BHARAT. AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THE 
    BEST WAY FOR THAT IS THRU ATTENDING THEIR REGULAR BRANCHES (shakha) 
    regularly.

>6] I have written a rather long article.
>   I feel very strongly about this.
>   I would like to see some discussion on these issues,
>   especially from some one who feels what I say here is wrong,
>   without trading insults.
>
>   Stay Cool.

          No Problem. 

Hope I'm able to make my views clear.


-Indu.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  The views expressed above are on my personal basis.                 |
|  No Group or  Organization   can be held responsible                 |
|                                ( for those in quest of truth .......)|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian