HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: svanegmo@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen Van Egmond)
Subject: Re: NEWS: Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
Keywords: press rape
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:27:07 GMT

Hold it.  Isn't there just the _slightest_ difference between an all-male sports
team and an all-male discussion on the effects of sexual assault?

Much of what was said at the all-male meeting seemed to be wrong; disrupting
that particular meeting was probably justified in light of what was said in
previous years.  That doesn't constitute an excuse to barge into an all-male
forum simply on the basis that it's an all-male forum.

From my experience in such matters, there are some aspects of a sexual assault
that male survivors are only comfortable discussing with other men.  That
clearly isn't the case for ALL men.  I think that Campus NOW shouldn't have been
yelling for the extermination of all male-only rape discussion groups; are far
more sensitive position would have been to call for a discussion group that
presents more accurate information.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:43:08 GMT

In article <krikket.05xw@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'Krikket' Krick) writes:
>In article <GPRIORES.93Jan5113335@fish.oracle.com>, gpriores@oracle.com (gordon
>prioreschi) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan4.163415.3330@midway.uchicago.edu> tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu
>>(leon joel gross) writes:
>>> [The word "gay" is] offensive for a variety
>>>of reasons for a variety of people. 
>>
>>Tell that to the organizers of San Francisco's annual "Gay Pride" parade.
>
>If you had left the above comment *IN CONTEXT*, I would do so without
>hesitation.  And I have talked with people who help organize Chicago's annual
>"Gay Pride" parade, and they agree.
>
>Now let's cover what the origional context was, for there is obviously nothing
>wrong with being Gay or Lesbian.  Many people are (rightly) proud of having
>that sexual orientation.
>
>The origional comment was "gay rape".  A misnomer at best, deliberately harmful
>at worst.  Rape is rape is rape.  It is an act of violence that takes place
>between two people, one of which is seeking power over the other.
>
>The sex of the abuser and victim are completely irrevelent to the rape, for a
>variety of reasons.  Hence the objection to the term "gay rape".  There are
>enough people out there who have been raped by a member of their own sex who
>have convinced themselves that because it was a member of their own sex, they
>too must be gay, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
>
>And that's one of the more MINOR objections people have to that term!
>
tThis was basicaly my pooit.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: NEWS: Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
Keywords: press rape
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 03:07:06 GMT

In article <C0nL7I.MHv@cs.mcgill.ca> chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J. Savoie) writes:
>In article <1inb36$lc8@agate.berkeley.edu> New Liberation News Service via Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>>Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
>>Jenny Brown, The Gainesville Iguana

>>	The Campus NOW Board editorial states: "Based on our
>>experience with men-only groups -- fraternities, men's sports,
>>groups of men screaming at us from cars -- men in such groups
>>frequently and openly display sexist attitudes and tend not
>>to object, but rather reward one another for sexist actions.
>>Because of this, Campus NOW stands against men-only groups."
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>		  like the aforementioned groups of men
>		  in cars, and men's sports!
>
>Now, don't tell me I'm taking this out of context.  I am not.
>How can anyone read this and not be disgusted?  It's saying that
>'men in men's sports FREQUENTLY AND OPENLY DISPLAY SEXIST ATTITUDES
>and REWARD ONE ANOTHER FOR SEXIST ACTIONS'???  How can ANYONE,
>read that and say it isn't sexist itself?  Is EVERYONE so blind
>to sexism and hatred when it's directed toward men?  What happens
>when people start believing this crap?  STOP THE HATRED, and maybe
>we'll get somewhere.

I'm curious as to how saying that men in men's sports display sexist
attitudes and reward one another for sexist actions is sexism and
hatred against men.  Perhaps you can post more on why you think it is
is sexism and hatred?
From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Date: 4 Jan 93 16:34:15 GMT
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1992Dec27.041534.18435@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mscarce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael Scarce) writes:
>     Yes, there was a case of alleged gay male acquaintance rape here in 
                                       ^^^
                                        |

>Columbus, Ohio. A man by the name of Russell Stalk was accused, but found not 
>guilty. The 1991 National Crime Survey released by the U.S. Bureau of Justice 
>reports that approximately 13,000 of the 168,000 annual rapes in the United 
>States involved male victims (approximately 7.7%). These stats are only for 
>adult men who are raped, not children.
>     I am doing research on the topic of adult male rape and would appreciate 
>any sources or info available, even personal accounts via E-Mail. I wrote an 
>article on this topic and it will soon be published in the quarterly NCASA 
>journal (National Coalition Against Sexual Assault).

Remove the above word 'gay' from your report if it appears there.  It's
out of place in the post and the report.  It's offensive for a variety
of reasons for a variety of people. 

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Subject: Re: Protect Yourself!!!!
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 04:17:13 GMT

In article <93008.133505U38134@uicvm.uic.edu> Noel B. Lorenzana <U38134@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>I'm sorry if this may not be appropriate, but last year a friend
>of mine was selling a self defense spray. He has since given up
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  With only this information it is hard to tell anything about
the effectiveness of this product.

>and sold them to me for a modest profit. I use it and have given
>it to my friends and family members. It honestly gives you a feeling
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of security just having one in your purse or car. It's legal in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  I submit that this is not the proper evidence of effectiveness.
This "feeling of security" could lead one into a dangerous situation
and then fail to provide protection.

>most states and is used by the U.S. postal service.  ...
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  for what?

  Self-defense sprays vary from ones which are unlikely to deter
an attacker, to ones which will probably incapacitate even a
determined attacker.  It really makes a major difference which 
one it is.

--henry schaffer
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: NEWS: Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
Keywords: press rape
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:55:55 GMT

In article <C0nL7I.MHv@cs.mcgill.ca> chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J. Savoie) writes:
>>Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
>>Jenny Brown, The Gainesville Iguana
>>
>>	The Campus NOW Board editorial states: "Based on our
>>experience with men-only groups -- fraternities, men's sports,
>>groups of men screaming at us from cars -- men in such groups
>>frequently and openly display sexist attitudes and tend not
>>to object, but rather reward one another for sexist actions.
>>Because of this, Campus NOW stands against men-only groups."
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>		  like the aforementioned groups of men
>		  in cars, and men's sports!
>
>Now, don't tell me I'm taking this out of context.  I am not.
>How can anyone read this and not be disgusted?  It's saying that
>'men in men's sports FREQUENTLY AND OPENLY DISPLAY SEXIST ATTITUDES
>and REWARD ONE ANOTHER FOR SEXIST ACTIONS'???  How can ANYONE,
>read that and say it isn't sexist itself?  

Have you ever *seen* the rape rates for men in all-male sports teams?
It's second only to the rape rates for men in all-male fraternities.

I read that, and I don't find it sexist in the least.  Nor do I find
it racist when the NAACP stands against all-white country clubs.

>Is EVERYONE so blind
>to sexism and hatred when it's directed toward men?  What happens
>when people start believing this crap?  STOP THE HATRED, and maybe
>we'll get somewhere.

It's not hatred to point out that all-male organizations reinforce
their own sexism and create a great deal of violence against women.
I have yet to see NOW gang-rape a male, whereas over 90% of campus
gang rapes are committed by all-male fraternities or sports teams.
I suggest that the hatred lies not with NOW, but somewhere else...
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: eoliver@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Erik Oliver)
Subject: Re: Rape as a perspective
Organization: Haverford College Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:45:43 GMT

There was a novel leagal suggestion being presented in a paper I read
recently which argued why this sort of things and many others should
still be considered rape.  It has to do with the principle which I
believe wasa termed "heightened care" or something like that, what the
principle referred to was that concept in common law that someone you
know has a heightened duty to care about your person.

So for example if my best friend were to trick me out of a $100, I might
argue that becausee of his close relationship with me, he had a
heightened duty towards me.  (I think this fleshs out the general
principle, I can try to find the original article if people are
interested.)

Anyhow, the lawyers making this proposal argue that once you begin
becomming a none stranger you begin to have heightened responsibilities
to get active positive consent without tricking the person.

It sounds like in the situation you describe this person knew her
feelings, ie he was no longer a stranger, and proceded to subtly coerce
her into sex.  Under this doctrine, which is not trial tested, I would
say that rape had occured.

-Erik
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: flaps@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Man rapes Man
Date: 10 Jan 93 21:49:45 GMT

gpriores@oracle.com (gordon prioreschi) writes:
>The act of sexual contact between two men, consensual or not, is by
>definition homosexual, even if the participants are not. 

Wrongo.  In our culture/language, "homosexual" refers to people, cultures, and
lifestyles, not sexual acts.  Look it up in a dictionary.  Or ask your male
friends if having a single sexual contact with a man makes one homosexual.
Some will angrily deny it, because they have had sexual contact with men but
find it very important to think of themselves as straight!
From: chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J. Savoie)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: NEWS: Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
Keywords: press rape
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:38:06 GMT
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada

In article <1inb36$lc8@agate.berkeley.edu> New Liberation News Service via Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>[From PeaceNet nlns.samples Conference]
>[Also Posted to ACTIV-L and misc.activism.progressive (by Somebody Else)]
>
>================================================================
>=> From: New Liberation News Service <nlns@igc.apc.org>
>=> Subject: NLNS: Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
>
>Feminists Integrate Men-Only Rape Talk
>Jenny Brown, The Gainesville Iguana
>

I suppose I could ramble on about this just like the article rambles on,
but instead I'll just comment on the final paragraph.

>	The Campus NOW Board editorial states: "Based on our
>experience with men-only groups -- fraternities, men's sports,
>groups of men screaming at us from cars -- men in such groups
>frequently and openly display sexist attitudes and tend not
>to object, but rather reward one another for sexist actions.
>Because of this, Campus NOW stands against men-only groups."
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
		  like the aforementioned groups of men
		  in cars, and men's sports!

Now, don't tell me I'm taking this out of context.  I am not.
How can anyone read this and not be disgusted?  It's saying that
'men in men's sports FREQUENTLY AND OPENLY DISPLAY SEXIST ATTITUDES
and REWARD ONE ANOTHER FOR SEXIST ACTIONS'???  How can ANYONE,
read that and say it isn't sexist itself?  Is EVERYONE so blind
to sexism and hatred when it's directed toward men?  What happens
when people start believing this crap?  STOP THE HATRED, and maybe
we'll get somewhere.

Someone once asked me for an example of an article in my campus
newspaper that would upset me.  This article was a good example.
I'm sure if my newspaper saw it they would republish it.

Charles

-- 

,.. .  . .  . ,.. . . ... ,.. ,..   =====================================
|   |--| |  | |   |<   |  |-  `-.   Charles Savoie  chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca
`'' '  ' `''' `'' ' ` ''' `'' '''   =====================================
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: eoliver@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Erik Oliver)
Subject: Re: Rape as a perspective
Organization: Haverford College Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:08:11 GMT

Ok, clearly I haven't explained the concept clearly enough or there
wouldn't be some many stupid examples flying around.

I will try to relocate the paper and present it in full.  It was written
by Katherine McKinnon (sp) one of the foremost feminist legal theorists,
if I recall correctly.

(will go a searching as soon as he gets back to school.)

-Erik
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:35:05 CST
From: Noel B. Lorenzana <U38134@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Protect Yourself!!!!

I'm sorry if this may not be appropriate, but last year a friend
of mine was selling a self defense spray. He has since given up
and sold them to me for a modest profit. I use it and have given
it to my friends and family members. It honestly gives you a feeling
of security just having one in your purse or car. It's legal in
most states and is used by the U.S. postal service. I have three more,
so if anyone wants one let me know, It retails for $25 and I'm selling
them for $12. BTW, i've included the postage and handling in the $12.

Thanks,

Noel.
From: anon.106@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: MALE victims of RAPE Talk
Date: 5 Jan 1993 05:02:51 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
Reply-To: anon.106@pax.tpa.com.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au


Before the holidays I posted a request, but when I checked USENET
from my site during the off-period I found that all the messages
on talk.rape had been cleared so I don't know if anyone had the
information for me (no one e-mailed me directly).  I have in the
meantime found out the original date of the show (a clip from it
was included in a subsequent show about women who had got
vengeance on their rapists).  So here is my updated request for
information.

Can anyone tell me the re-broadcast date of the Jane Whitney
Nighttalk Show (originally aired May 22, 1992) which featured
three men who had been raped.  It was  rebroadcast in
Detroit in early August and perhaps later again.  I guess
I missed it both times :-<

I need the latest re-broadcast date as Burrelle Transcripts wasn't
operating at the time of the original broadcast and they seem
incapable of doing the sleuthwork themselves.  

Actually I would be glad to buy a tape version of this show if
anyone has it.

Chris


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From: gpriores@oracle.com (gordon prioreschi)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: blast from the past, gang-rapes, random musings
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:25:44 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corp., Belmont CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <OAF.93Jan6203223@tissot.ai.mit.edu> oaf@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Oded Feingold) writes:
>[fraternity gang-rape description-of-problem deleted]
> This ancient posting, written before AIDS was hot stuff and before
>some of you were born, opens many issues.  I'll list a few:
>  Pack formation among young men.
>  Fraternities as hunting packs and affinity groups.  Threat or
> menace?  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
>  Bonding rituals - sharing spoils of the hunt.

I agree that frats are packs. Unfortunately, in a few cases gang rape
probably is one of the bonding rituals.


>  Gang-rape as deliberately shared guilt and source of
> ostracism from larger society, hence as insurance against
> someone breaking from the pack.

Maybe in a very few cases.


>  (Consider the analogy with gang rape in wartime - once
>  the population abhors you, your safety depends on
>  sticking with your buddies, no matter what outrages
>  they commit).

I'm not sure that's an issue, even subconsciously; IMHO the soldiers
in question just see the victims as bounty to be used.


>  Need for young people to learn what being drunk feels like
>  before they go off to college, so they can recognize
>  danger signals, and are less prone to "accidental"
>  excess alcohol consumption.

I agree that the existence of a legal drinking age causes problems
upon initial exposure to alcohol.


>  Need for assertiveness training for women, in their younger
>  years.

IMO, assertiveness training or not, college freshmen of both sexes are
going to be a little overwhelmed during their first months away from
home, which makes them vulnerable. Would probably help some, though.


>  Need for affinity-group formation for women, so less-drunk
>  cohorts can perceive threats.

Actually, in my experience sorority sisters do tend to look out for
one another.


>Rape as an aspect of
>structuring society applies across the range of human experience, and
>extends to the animal world.
>[...]
>The ducks
>who gang-rape a female don't stick around and raise any offspring,
>particularly if by doing so they kill her. [...] In such cases, there is
>probably the derivative survival utility of bonding with each other at
>the same time they exclude themselves from integration (or
>re-integration) with the victim population.

Are the gang-raping ducks ostracized by the rest of duck society?
This is not facetious or sarcastic; I'm genuinely curious.


                                  Cordially,

                                        -g
From: mscarce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael Scarce)
Subject: RE: Man Rapes Man
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:26:25 GMT

I'm not sure if my last message made it through or not, so bear with me if this
is a repeat.

There was a request for information about any male rape cases going to court. I
responded in mentioning a 'gay male acquaintance rape'.

The alleged rapist is a self-identified GAY man.
The alleged survivor is a self-identified GAY man.
The two men met in a GAY bar, went home together, and one allegedly raped the 
other.

I was merely attempting to be specific about this case. It IS important to 
distinguish what kind of rape we are talking about. Rape within the gay 
community can be very different than heterosexual rape or lesbian rape, just as
there are differences between stranger and acquaintance rapes, individual or 
gang rape, adult rape or incest/molestation, etc, etc......

There has been a lot of misinformation on this newsgroup about the rape of men 
over the last few days, let's begin to get our facts right.

Statements like "The sex of the abuser and victim are completely irrelevant to 
the rape" does incredible damage to rape survivors. Many people still believe 
that it is impossible for men to be raped at all, and many female-specific rape
laws make the rape of men perfectly legal by definition.
There are differences between male and female survivors' rape experiences and 
the issues which affect their recovery, just as cultural-specific rape 
education and prevention in our communities is needed to address the demands of
our diverse populations.

Sorry for any misunderstanding, let's continue to explore this issue together.

Michael Scarce
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: almaguer@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (alejandro almaguer)
Subject: Re: Questions on rape.
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:41:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.155502.3071@cnsvax.uwec.edu> andersod@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>To Whom ever reads this;
>
>I was just wondering if rape was an offense that happened to the same person
>more than once?  In other words, is there a certain characteristic that
>attracts rapist to rape again?  

Many rapist, if not all, rape and rape again.

>I know this is a touchy sobject with some, but I was just informed that a 
>friend of mine was raped (more than once) and I wanted to know if that was
>true.   

What is your question?  Will a rapist rape more than once or are there
people out there who have been raped more than once?  My answer, both.
 
>I also wanted to know if there is something I can do, as a friend of the 
>person who has been raped?   
There is a book called "If she is raped."  I have not read it so I cannot
testify to its qualities. Anyone?

Sincerely,
Alejandro




Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Rape as a perspective
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:04:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.200424.3968@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>In article <DPJWBZZ@cc.swarthmore.edu> eoliver@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Erik Oliver) writes:
>>I will try to relocate the paper and present it in full.  It was written
>>by Katherine McKinnon (sp) one of the foremost feminist legal theorists,
>>if I recall correctly.
>
>    Baaaaahaaahhaaaaahaaahahahah. You won't get much support on usenet for
>ideas attributable to KMcK. Although many people support at least some of 
>her ideas, I haven't heard anyone call her a formost feminist legal
>theorist (on usenet, anyway).

She's a foremost feminist legal theorist.  That doesn't at all make her
correct.  I've become very disgruntled with what qualifies as feminist
legal theory.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation