HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk.linux
Subject: Re: fopen ja symlinkki
Keywords: fopen,link,I/O
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:21:25 GMT
Distribution: sfnet
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Aug22.103413.18221@klaava.Helsinki.FI> torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.233809.6513@klaava.Helsinki.FI> widenius@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Risto Widenius) writes:
>>Oletetaan, ett{ minulla on symlinkki foo->bar. Tiedostoa bar ei ole
>>olemassa. fopen("foo","w") palauttaa NULL-pointterin. Linux 0.97pl1+
>>ja gcc-2.2.2d. Onko t{m{ tarkoituskin, vai olenko turoillut? N{ytt{{
>>silt{, ett{ ar ei Linuxin alla pysty seuraamaan symlinkkej{ t{m{n
>>piirteen vuoksi.
>>
>>Klaavassa (SunOS 4.1.2 ja gcc-2.2.2) vastaava fopen palauttaa kiltisti
>>tiedosto-osoittimen.
>
>Oikeassapahan olet: linuxin symlink-rutiinit eiv{t tee uutta tiedostoa
>kun symlikej{ seurataan.  Syyn{ yksinkertaisesti se etten edes ajatellut
>sit{ kun kirjoitin koodia.  Pit{{p{ katsoa: toivottavasti 0.97.pl2
>toimii oikein.  Eli huomenna p{{see kokeilemaan. 

Jeh.  Korjattu on.  Samalla korjasin pari virheellist{ virheilmoitusta.
Kokeilkaapa esim:

	# rm bar
	# ln -s bar foo
	# cat foo
	cat: foo: Too many symbolic links

Tuo siis jos k{ytt{{ 0.97.pl1 tai aikaisempia versioita.  Ep{looginen
virheilmo, mutta johtui siit{ ett{ vfs-rutiinit eiv{t aina pit{neet
tarpeeksi hyv{{ kirjaa virheist{.  Tuo "Too many symbolic links" eli
ELOOP pit{isi siis olla "No such file or directory" eli ENOENT.  Se on
siis nyt korjattu, ja on huomisessa patch2'ssa. 

Yrit{n korjata viel{ pari muuta virheilmoitusta: ongelmana on ett{
linuxin 'namei()' rutiini ep{onnistuessaan palauttaa vain NULL'in eik{
mit{{n syyt{.  Korjaanpa senkin (helppo nakki: kaikki muut rutiinit
osaavat k{sitell{ virheit{ oikein). 

		Linus
From: mnikunen@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Martti Nikunen)
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk.linux
Subject: Re: Suomalainen Linux?
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:29:03 GMT
Distribution: sfnet
Organization: University of Helsinki

Uusin versio xdvist{ on kuulemma koneessa math.berkeley.edu,
pub/TeX/xdvi_beta.tar.Z (patchlevel 16).

--
Martti Nikunen
Department of Mathematics
University of Helsinki
mnikunen@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk.linux
From: hpasanen@cs.hut.fi (Harri Pasanen)
Subject: fsck ei korjaa t{t{? PULMIA...
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: sfnet.atk.linux
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 22:24:52 GMT

Sainpahan ensimm{isen kerran koneeni linuxin alla kaatumaan niin, ett{ vain
kylm{ reset auttoi.

Harmikseni root-partitiolla on nyt seuraava fsck:n reportoima olio:

/home/harri/tmp/core: bad directory: '.' isn't first
/home/harri/tmp/core: bad directory: '..' isn't second

Valitettavasti fsck ei osaa tehd{ asialle mit{{n.  Mik{ neuvoksi?
(Siell{ oli muutakin h{ikk{{, mutta fsck korjasi ne toivoakseni ok.)

rmdir ei suostu t{t{ core 'hakemistoa' poistamaan.

Jatkoin puuhastelua jonkin aikaa, kun  en muutakaan keksinyt, mutta sitten
at
make alkoi antaa Segmentation Faulttia, ja nyt olen masentuneen menossa
nukkumaan.  (Olisi pit{nyt menn{ jo 2 tuntia sitten :-())

Niin, kyseess{ on 0.97pl1

Onko hyvi{ neuvoja?

Harri
hpasanen@cs.hut.fi

Newsgroups: sfnet.atk.linux
From: suhonen@jalka.jyu.fi (Timo Suhonen)
Subject: Re: Bugeja 0.97 rootimagen ohjelmissa
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Department of Biology of Physical
	Activity
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:24:59 GMT


du ilmoittaa 512 tavun blokkeina ja df ilmoittaa 1024 tavun blokkeina
kulutetun levytilan (tai sitten ne oli toisinp{in).
--
Timo                 "I am logged in, therefore I am"                Suhonen
  It is left as an easy exercise to the reader to correct all typos. (-me)
   Opinions(?) are mine (if not stolen), NOT those of Univ. of Jyvaskyla.
         suhonen@jyu.fi suhonen@tarzan.jyu.fi suhonen@jalka.jyu.fi
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk.linux
From: kari@mol.fi (Kari Likovuori)
Subject: Unexpected HD IRQ
Organization: Ministry of Labour
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:50:40 GMT


Linuxin asentaminen MM 4TT m338iin Adaptecin 1542b SCSI ajurilla hyytyy
em. ilmoitukseen. Muistelen h{m{r{sti n{hneeni joko t{{ll{ tai
comp.os.linuxissa maininnan SCSI/HD:n keskeytyksen vaihtamisesta niin,
ett{ Linux asentuisi kivuttomasti. (en ko. viesti{ {sken l|yt{nyt)
Muistaako joku ko. viestin/tiet{{ muuten vaan mit{ pit{isi tehd{. SCSI
kortilla on noin siljoona jumpperia...

Yritin asennusta sek{ 0.97 ett{ 0.95c+scsi bootimageilla.


Kari
-- 
Kari Likovuori / Ty|ministeri| / Atk-yksikk| / Etel{-esplanadi 4 / 00100 Hki
Internet: Kari@Mol.Fi, Kari.Likovuori@Helsinki.Fi ..........................

Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: pehmo@ositech.fi (Petteri Jarvinen)
Organization: Ositech Oy
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:49:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Olio-ohjelmointi -kirja

> ATK-alalla ainoastaan Pehmo-Petteri on saanut riitt{v{n tuen
> kustantajaltaan, siis kirjat on saatu ostajalle saakka. Muut
 
WSOY on iso ja perinteinen kustantaja, mutta heid{n tukensa
minun kirjoille on ollut paljon v{h{isemp{{ kuin joillekin
runo-, kauno- yms. teoksille. 
 
Olen itse valinnut aiheeni, kirjoittanut tekstin, taittanut
sen ja toimittanut kaiken valmiina pakettina WSOY:lle, jonka
ei ole tarvinnut muuta kuin toimittaa se kauppaan. Eiv{t ole
edes mainostaneet kirjojani. T{ss{ suhteessa Yritysmikrot Oy
(jolle kirjoitin kaksi kirjaa) on hoitanut tuen ja markki-
noinnin paljon paremmin. 
 
Vika ei siis ole v{ltt{m{tt{ kustantajassa tai sen tuess
/tuen puutteessa mik{li kirja ei l|yd{ tiet{{n ostajalle. 
T{rke{mp{{ on kohderyhm{n valinta, oikealla tavalla kirjoittaminen,
lukijan tilanteeseen asettuminen (t{ss{ monella suomalaisella
tekij{ll{ tuntuu olevan korjaamista) sek{ tietenkin se, ett{
kirjoittaa kiinnostavasta aiheesta (kuinka moni todellakaan
HALUAISI lukea olio-ohjelmoinnin kirjaa suomeksi???). 
 
Petteri J{rvinen

Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: wihuri@polaris.utu.fi (Pauli Wihuri)
Subject: Re: "Tukiainen" -- Korkeakoulujen Mikrotukikeskuksen asiakastiedote
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 08:28:46 GMT

>timvih@sara.cc.utu.fi (Timo Vihersaari) writes:
>> wihuri@polaris.utu.fi (Pauli Wihuri) writes:
>>> otto@tukki.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) writes:

>>>WP on Windowsin paras graafinen tekstink{sittely, niin ne sanoi
>>>siin{ Mikrotukikeskuksen tiedotteessa" ?

>> Kyll{h{n painettuun sanaan pit{{ voida luottaa...

>Katselin ihan suurennuslasilla tuon lausahduksen per{st{ hymi|t{,
>mutten l|yt{nyt! Oletko ihan tosissasi?? ;-)))

Ajattelin j{tt{{ sen lukijan itsens{ harkittavaksi, kun itse nauran
suupielet korvissa...

Pauli Wihuri
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: Ari.Hypponen@hut.fi (Ari Hypp|nen)
Subject: Re: kuvaruudun "valokuvaus"
Reply-To: Ari.Hypponen@hut.fi
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Distribution: sfnet
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:45:39

>>>>> On Tue, 11 Aug 1992 12:34:18 GMT, pehmo (Petteri Jarvinen) said:

Petteri> Tarvitsisin muutaman kuvan Motif- ja Next-k{ytt|liittymist{
Petteri> esim. PCX-, BMP- tai MAC-tiedostomuodoissa. Miten Unix-myllyiss{
Petteri> j{rjestyy n{yt|n "valokuvaaminen" levytiedostoon?

NeXTiss{ homma onnistuu esimerkiksi NextDeveloper-kamoihin kuuluvalla
Grab-apuv{lineell{.  Voit tulla ottamaan leikkeen Data Fellowsissa,
jos haluat.

--
Ari Hypp|nen, Ari.Hypponen@hut.fi
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: otto@tukki.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela)
Subject: "Tukiainen" -- Korkeakoulujen Mikrotukikeskuksen asiakastiedote
Organization: The Crimson Permanent Assurance Company
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:24:48 GMT

Sattuipa k{siin t|llainen Korkeakoulujen Mikrotukikeskuksen
asiakastiedote.  Sanalla "tukiainen" on ainakin minun korvaani
jonkin verran negatiivinen kaiku, eik{ t{m{ l{pysk{ lainkaan
auttanut asiaa.  Lehti sis{lt{{ vain kaupallista materiaalia
(=mainoksia), l{hinn{ firmojen edustajien kirjoittamia omia
tuotteitaan kehuvia pseudo-asia-artikkeleita.  Pahiten s{r{hti
WP/Windowsia mainostava TT-mikrotradingin ty|ntekij{n artikkeli.

Onko todellakaan asiallista, ett{ t{llaista jaetaan sitten n{ille
sinisilm{isille mikrotukihenkil|ille, "T{ytyy sen olla totta,
WP on Windowsin paras graafinen tekstink{sittely, niin ne sanoi
siin{ Mikrotukikeskuksen tiedotteessa" ?
-- 
   /* * * Otto J. Makela <otto@jyu.fi> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */
  /* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (V.32bis/USR-HST,24h/d) */
 /* Mail: Kauppakatu 1B18/SF-40100 Jyvaskyla/Finland, ICBM: 62.14N25.44E */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: mattila@ositech.fi (Sakari Mattila)
Organization: Ositech Oy
Distribution: sfnet
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:48:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Kysymys: kierr{tyst{?

2A Company on yksi kasettien t{ytt{jist{. L|ytyy Espoosta, Olarista,
luettelossa kohdassa "Kaksi ...". T{ytetty kasetti ei ole koskaan t{ysin
uuden veroinen, mutta suurimmat haukut johtuvat siit{, ettei kasettia
vaihdettaessa vaihdeta huopaista rummun harjaa.
From: dm@tellu.Itumic.FI (Dick Mihalovsky)
Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
Subject: Re: Olio-ohjelmointi -kirja
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:58:03 GMT
Reply-To: dm@tellu.Itumic.FI
Distribution: sfnet
Organization: Itumic OY, Jyvaskyla, Finland

pehmo@ositech.fi (Petteri Jarvinen) writes:

>kirjoittaa kiinnostavasta aiheesta (kuinka moni todellakaan
>HALUAISI lukea olio-ohjelmoinnin kirjaa suomeksi???). 

Itseasiassa aika moni.  Olen pit{nyt/lupautunut pit{m{{n
paikallisessa tekussa kursseja (C-kieli ja reaaliaikaj{rjestelm{t), sek{
nuoriso- ett{ aikuisopiskelijoille, ja kyll{ englanninkielisen
kirjallisuuden k{ytt||n on suhtauduttu (varsinkin aikusopiskelijoiden
taholta) kielteisesti.

Lis{ksi olen huomannut, ett{ yo. aiheista ei l|ydy kuin muutama kirja
suomeksi, ja nekin korkeintaan siedett{vi{.  RA -puolelta ei
l|ydy edes englanniksi.

	Dick Mihalovsky
	
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*** Blues from: Dick Mihalovsky             **  ITUMIC OY                 ***
*** EMAIL:      dm@itumic.fi		    **  Tahvontie 2               ***
*** Tel:        +358-41-263022              **  40420 Jyska, FINLAND      ***
*****************************************************************************

Newsgroups: sfnet.atk
From: Mika.Thynell@hut.fi (Mika Thynell)
Subject: Re: Mill{ tieto siirtyy koneesta toiseen?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
	<1992Aug20.233815.8324@cc.tut.fi>
Distribution: sfnet
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:37:31

----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Aug 92 23:38:15 GMT, vihuri@cc.tut.fi (Tapio Vihuri) said:
Kai mac plussa on sitten niin vanha ett{ sen tiedostok{{nt{j{ ei ymm{rr{ dossi
korppua. Itseasiassa ohjelma on niin fiksu ett{ kun sille iskee dossi DD korpun
sis{{n se toteaa ett{ enp{s osaa lukea moista korppua, haluatko alustaa korpun.
Sitten saa valita alustaako mac, ms-dos ja prdos ( tms, apple II k{yttis).
Homma muuttuu hauskaksi sen j{lkeen kun formatoi sen korpun dossille. Sen
j{lkeen sit{ korppua ei ymm{rr{ t{m{ maanmainio tiedostonk{{nt{j{ eik{ 
dossikone. Vaikuttaa laadukkaalta ohjelmalta.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Olisit heti kertonut ett{ kone on plussa. Siin{ ei ole HD-levyasemaa,
vaan plussan (ja muiden maccien 800k levyasemat) py|riv{t
vaihtelevalla nopeudella (vrt. CD). Miksi ei muka toimi zterm ja
PC:ss{ terminaaliohjelma joka osaa z-protokollan? Toisessa p{{ss{
sanotaan ata ja toisessa ato. Connectin (57600?) j{lkeen vaan sz ja
voila!

--
______________________________________________________________________
Mika.Thynell@hut.fi	 /	  If  you have any trouble  with 
		   	/	 this software, please call 911.

Xref: sparky milw.unix:20 milw.general:271
From: jjwwjj@mixcom.com (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: milw.unix,milw.general
Subject: Milw. NeXT Group?
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:49:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: mixcom.1992Aug14.124901.15415
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: milw
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.

Can anyone tell me the e-mail address of the Milwaukee NeXT User's Group?

Alberto Ricart, are you still out there? What is your e-mail address?

When will the group meet next (no pun intended!)?

Thanks.

Clint

robots@mixcom.com


-- 
===============================================================================
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS, INC.                                           CLINT LASKOWSKI
P. O. Box 552                                       Voice Mail:  (414) 778-7675
Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552                       Internet: robots@mixcom.com
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky milw.general:278 wi.forsale:300 rec.gardens:6076
From: hinz@picard.med.ge.com (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987)
Newsgroups: milw.general,uwm.general,wi.forsale,rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Colorado Blue Spruce 4-Sale:  Literally Dirt Cheap!!
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:06:49 GMT
Distribution: milw
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Where is said tree located (Yes, I know, in a hole, but where?)
If the location is right, I would be interested.

Otherwise, Mr. Chainsaw does a good job!


--

Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
hinz@picard.med.ge.com
Xref: sparky milw.general:277 wi.forsale:296 rec.gardens:6038
From: dermer@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
Newsgroups: milw.general,uwm.general,wi.forsale,rec.gardens
Subject: Colorado Blue Spruce 4-Sale:  Literally Dirt Cheap!!
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:26:01 GMT
Distribution: milw
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: dermer@convex.csd.uwm.edu

We would like to exchange a beautiful Colorado Blue Spruce for your removing
it and properly filling the resulting hole. The tree is approximately nine
feet tall and five feet in diameter.  Two strong men could easily place the
tree on the bed of a pick-up truck.  If you wanted to buy a tree like this it
would cost at least $70, but then you would not have to remove it!  Still,
its a great deal for the able-bodied who are interested in improving their
home, farm, etc.

Leave a message here.  First come, first-served!

Thanks,

Marshall

      -----------------------------------------------------------------. 
  .--/__|_|__Marshall_Lev_Dermer_ University of Wisconsin ______|_|____| 
  /.  . |-|   Moshe Ben Menasha         Milwaukee               |.|  | | 
 /   ___|-|_Dept. of Psychology _  dermer@convex.csd.uwm.edu____|_|__|_| 
/___/<_>==<_>\------------------------------------------------/<_>==<_>
From: adicon@teknetix.com (Peter Miczek)
Newsgroups: milw.jobs
Subject: SoftwareEngineer, Embedded System Development
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:17:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: teknetix.1992Aug21.011709.10708
Distribution: milw
Organization: Technetix, Inc.

Title:		Software Engineer, Embedded System Development

Company:	ADICON Consulting and Design

Description:	ADICON is a small Milwaukee based consulting and 
		engineering firm specializing in the design and 
		development of electronic products and software.

Location:	Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Required:	BSEE or BSCS and 4+ years experience in real-time
		embedded uP applications.  Hands-on experience with
		in-circuit development systems and hardware/software
		integration.  Assembly and high-level language
		experience.

Desired:	Intel 80x86 family and/or Motorola 68xxx experience.

Respond To:	ADICON Consulting and Design
		1123 N. Water St.
		Milwaukee, WI 53202

		EMAIL:	adicon@teknetix.com
From: adicon@teknetix.com (Peter Miczek)
Newsgroups: milw.jobs
Subject: Software Engineer, Vision Systems
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:24:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: teknetix.1992Aug21.012427.10813
Distribution: milw
Organization: Technetix, Inc.

Title:		Software Engineer, Vision systems

Company:	ADICON Consulting and Design

Description: 	ADICON is a small Milwaukee based consulting and 	
		engineering firm specializing in the design and
		development of electronic products and software.

Location:	Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Required:	BSEE or BSCS and 4+ years experience.  Image
		processing and/or digital signal processing and a
		strong math background.  C language programming
		experience.

Respond To:	ADICON Consulting and Design
		1123 N. Water St.
		Milwaukee, WI 53202

		EMAIL: adicon@teknetix.com
From: wayner@teknetix.com (Jim Wayner)
Newsgroups: milw.jobs
Subject: test
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:32:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: teknetix.1992Aug15.193221.6354
Distribution: milw
Organization: Technetix, Inc.

This is a test.
From: adicon@teknetix.com (Peter Miczek)
Newsgroups: milw.jobs
Subject: Software Engineer, MS Windows Applications
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:07:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: teknetix.1992Aug21.010759.10592
Distribution: milw
Organization: Technetix, Inc.

Title:		Software Engineer, MS Windows Applications

Company:	ADICON Consulting and Design

Description: 	ADICON is a small Milwaukee based consulting and 
		engineering firm specializing in the design and
		development of electronic products and software.

Location:	Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Required:	BSEE or BSCS and 4+ years experience in software
		development.  Strong background in MS Windows
		and/or X-Window GUI application design.  Structured 
		design and documentation techniques.  C language
		programming experience required.

Desired:	Object oriented design, C++ experience.

Respond To:	ADICON Consulting and Design
		1123 N. Water St.
		Milwaukee, WI 53202

		EMAIL: adicon@teknetix.com
From: monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: socialism
Summary: Marxism vs Leninism
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:33:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug13.193332.16892
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I think, in this recent discussion on the merits of capitalism vs
socialism, that many, when referring to socialism, actually mean Leninism,
Stalinism, or Maoism.  These political/economic systems have nothing to do
with the socialism of Karl Marx, other than the theft of the name (and today's
marxists aren't Marxists).

Marx did not propose state-owned, central govt. control of production.

Marx envsioned capitalism as a necessary phase of social evolution out of
the feudal society and into a democratic society.  The concept of
a democratic feudal system was impossible.  Marx's vision of society was a
gradual change from feudalism, through captialism, to socialism.  To Mark,
socialism and democracy were not incompatible.  And this is important:  Marx
saw capitalism as absolutely necessary in the process!  Marx realized that
democracy was impossible without capitalism.

Lenin, Stalin, et al didn't think capitalism was necessary, that they
could jump right into communism/socialism.  The past 70 years proved them
wrong and Marx right.

Also remember that Marx was writing at the beginning of the industrial age,
with all of the abuses of the industrial capitalists.  Most of those abuses,
through govt. intervention and unionization, have been rectified.

Are corporations or companies democratic?  Not entirely, but more so than
50, 100, or 150 years ago.  Will they be more democratic, more 'socialist',
50 or 100 years from now?  Undoubtably.
Newsgroups: pnw.general,seattle.general,rec.backcountry
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: fundamental character of socialism
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:45:43 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <1992Aug11.181135.27077@u.washington.edu> monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:
/Aspects of
/socialism, such as employee ownership, are appearing without the assumed
/requisite of authoritarianism (that is appearing as a result of apathy on
/the part of the electorate).

When workers own the company, that is capitalism, not socialism. Under
socialism, the government owns the company. In capitalist countries, a lot
of companies are owned wholly or partially by employees. I have owned stock
in every company I've worked for.

If workers truly *own* the company, that means that they can sell it. If they
sell to non-workers, how does that fit your definition of socialism? If they
can't sell it, then they don't own it. It would be a sham.
From: mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Mike Burr)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: fundamental character of socialism
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:10:03 GMT
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

In article <1992Aug12.154906.17577@u.washington.edu> monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:
>
>And the workers who produce the product/service aren't paid enough to
>purchase shares, in most cases.
>

I have a hard time buying Tracy's statement here.  There are thousands of
stocks whose shares trade for less than a case of beer, or a carton of
cigarettes, or dinner out, or a few drinks at a bar, or a months subscription
to HBO.... all things the average worker seems to be able to do.  If the
average worker isn't participating in capitalism, a great deal of the time
it's their priorities that are at fault - not the system.


-- 
Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
From: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:18:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Aug13.211856.6408
Reply-To: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

Walter Bright writes:

>David W. Barts writes:
>/But then there are nations like Sweden or The Netherlands, whose
>/politics have been heavily influenced by democratic socialist parties
>/and in some cases have less income inequality then _both_ the US _and_
>/the former East Bloc.
>
>	They may have less income inequality, but they have a lower
>	standard of living.

Standard of living?  You mean disposable income.

To me, standard of living includes things like crime, congestion,
pollution, health, education, and a sense of well being.  On this
basis, is the U.S. ahead?  I think many Swedes would disagree.

I read an article that captured the difference between the U.S. and
Sweden.  A Swedish woman explained that the people in her country
embraced Socialism not as a form of Communism, but as a form of
Christianity.  They are willing to pool their resources to help each
other.  Americans are not.

Yes, America is a land of opportunity.  But it is also a cold place.
Some of us wish it were warmer.

					--Lowell Skoog
					  Seattle, Washington
From: ray@ole.cdac.com (Ray Berry)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Shady Seafirst billing practice
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:41:23 GMT
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Cascade Design Automation



	I doubt I'm the only one who has had the following experience:

	1.  Seafirst credit card bill arrives- due date falls on a Saturday.
    2.  I walk into a Seafirst branch on that Saturday morning and make
        the payment.
    3.  The teller hands me a receipt which is POSTDATED to Monday.
    4.  My next statement arrives with a LATE CHARGE slapped on my account.

    This strikes me as a very deceptive practice.  Does anyone have a well-
    qualified opinion about the legality of this practice?  And what agency
    would be the appropriate one with which to file a formal complaint? TIA.
-- 
Ray Berry  kb7ht  ray@ole.UUCP  73407.3152@compuserve.com  /* inquire within */
From: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:14:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Aug13.151453.6032
Reply-To: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:

>Corporations, by definition, are a democracy. One share == one vote. If
>workers want a vote, they need to buy shares like anybody else. 

So, participation in Democracy is based on the ownership of
property.  Funny, I thought it was based on being a citizen and a
human being.  It was to combat the non-democratic nature of
corporations that labor unions emerged.

					--Lowell Skoog
					  Seattle, Washington