From: George Paap <george_paap@email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
X-Xxdate: Mon, 4 Jan 93 12:30:24 GMT
Organization: Motorola RISC
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:29:47 GMT

I've enjoyed this discussion (and learned a bit).  A few thoughts:

In article <2B4770BC.12795@news.service.uci.edu> Janis Maria Cortese, 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu writes:
> Perhaps this is so obvious no one has posted it, or perhaps someone has
> and I just had my eyes closed (a possibility) but I haven't run into
> anyone who seriously claims that every word of their ritual and practice
> comes from millennia ago; there's nuts out there, I know, I just haven't
> run into them personally. 

Certainly not I, I was thinking of evidence of more "general" pagan
practices than Gardinarian Wicca.

> Wicca/Paganism/Witchcraft all revive things that were held in high
> regard by old pre-xtian religions.  They enjoy sexuality -- or purport
> to -- are polytheistic when they are theistic at all, mostly, try to
> connect as much as possible with the progression of the seasons, and try
> to regard humans as another flavor of animal, which is what we are.
> While the wands, swords, and colors of the candles are new revivals, and
> while the Books of Shadows are printed on xerox paper, the basic flavor
> survives.  Wicca is a modern religion that has its foundation in what we
> know of old traditions, and I've never seen anything that makes me think
> differently.  

I agree.  I follow an eclectic tradition with an eclectic BOS (oh, that's
what that means).  To me this means that I use what ever I find
relevant and meaningful, regardless of it's source (or authenticity).

In article <1993Jan2.075513.6831@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill 
nelson, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> during the last century. Note that I am talking about a
> religion, not mysticism or belief in spirits etc.
.....deleted
> Nope. All I want is something that goes back to the earlier
> parts of this century - prior to around 1950.  I would say,
> if such traditions existed, that it would be highly likely
> that such documentation would exist.

I certainly do not feel informed enough to venture into "what
is a religion and what is not a religion". I think now that
Bill was making a much more specific argument (or point) 
than I was addressing.

In article <1993Jan2.075513.6831@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill 
nelson, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> Yep. Fortunately, people are starting to write valid stuff 
about
> paganism and Witchcraft - not the bull that has been 
written over
> the last 30 years by the "wish it were so" crowd.

I guess I'm somewhat in the middle here.  I believe that if
you write a book, you reference what you get or claim
to get from somewhere else, and acknowledge what you generate
yourself.  I think the "Bull" that has been written over
the last 30 years has very rarely made this distinction, but 
I wouldn't say its "invalid" (perhaps in historical accuracy,
but not necessarily in applicability or usefulness,[Now,
obviously I would prefer a properly referenced source]).  The
thought that just popped into my brain is that there may 
be a disconnect between people who are able to describe how
to use the symbolism effectively but are unwilling (or able)
to properly reference and research it (i.e., "The Bull") and
those that require evidence before using it (the scholastic
approach).  I guess I'll just have to pick and choose
between the two.  For me, "Wicca" is just a general
framework to put it all in.

I had the time to watch Joseph Campbell's "Transformations
of Myth through Time" (14 fascinating hours) this weekend.  
And it really struck me how eclectic and multifaceted the 
mythic, religious, and philosophical heritage of Europe is.
I would agree that any truly ancient "religion" lost its
purity long ago.  A point he makes time and time again is
not to lose the symbolism in the symbol.

An aside on the PSA, I vaguely recall what Thorfinn was
referring to, but was not involved enough to have an opinion.  

Have a swell day,
George

I am my beliefs.
(which almost certainly are not those of my employer)