HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Arisia vs. Boskone
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:44:31 GMT

In article <1hv1trINNqoc@transfer.stratus.com>
jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
> In article <1992Dec30.002935.17055@radian.uucp>  
> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
> > I'd say the battle is between SMOF-run cons, who want to big, and  
> > yet exclusive, tending to prefer print to any other media, and those
> > who want to remain like the cons used to be.
> 
> Define "used to be."  I'd argue that cons that tend to prefer
> print media ARE like cons "used to be."  But then, I define
> "used to be" based on 1975.  Most people tend to define "used
> to be" based on what it was like when they first started
> going to conventions.

And I would define it as based on 1969 or so.  Boskone had about 250
people that year, and was entirely print- and art-oriented.  If you
want a convention like Boskone "used to be," go to Readercon.  (Okay,
Readercon is a bit too large. :-) )

*That* was Boskone Classic!

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"God does not play dice with the universe."  --Albert Einstein
"Albert, stop telling God what to do."  --Niels Bohr
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Arisia vs. Boskone
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:29:35 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <9212282303.AA13694@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> dee@ranger.enet.dec.com ("Donald E. Eastlake 3rd, LJO2/I4, 1-508-486-2358  28-Dec-1992 1803") writes:
>>From: dgg@think.com (David Grubbs)
>>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
>>Subject: Re: Arisia vs. Boskone
>>Date: 21 Dec 92 15:44:39
>>Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
>>Message-ID: <DGG.92Dec21154439@mickey.think.com>
>>In-reply-to: figmo@netcom.com's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:52:39 GMT
>>figmo@netcom.com (Lynn Gold) writes:
>>
>>> There are two cons in the Boston area in the winter.
>>> ...
>>> Not being familiar with east coast fan politics, what IS the
>>> difference between Arisia and Boskone (other than their names, dates,
>>> and locations)?  What is the "battle" all about?
<MUNCH!!!>
>Obviously it is hard to characterize a group of people's motivations in any
>sort of accurate or complete way.  But Boskone had been over 4,000 and 
>intentionally dropped to less than 2,000.  Most of these were "innocent"
>people.  Some of them would have characterized their motivations as being
>"affronted" by the explicit anti-media, anti-gaming, anti-costume, anti-youth
>attitude of Boskone at that time.  On the other hand, its not quite clear how 
>Boskone was going to succeed in booting out thousands of innocent people by 
>being nice. And it was quite clear that NESFA explicity decided that it needed 
>to get Boskone much smaller and understood that many of those to be somehow
> kept out were not a cause of the problems.
>
I suppose you could say innocent. "Intentionally dropped"? I suppose. I *saw*
the letter, where they picked 750 people, who had attended x previous Boskones,
and invited them. Everyone else was not included. Yeah, 750 is sure less than
2,000. Boskone *could* have a) NOT ADVERTISED in some media (I used to argue,
every year in Philly, to *not* advertise in any but print media, and *not*
in record stores, etc.) Then there's the "bigger is better" mentality of
the SMOFS running the cons nowadays, resulting in many cons being locked
into one hotel (Philly being another good example).

I'd say the battle is between SMOF-run cons, who want to big, and yet ex-
clusive, tending to prefer print to any other media, and those who want to 
remain like the cons used to be.

	mark, the anti-SMOF

"How can you be a SMOF if *everyone* knows who you are?" - me
From: zbang@access.digex.com (Carl P. Zwanzig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: What really happened after Boskone 24 (was Re: Arisia vs. Boskone)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 04:07:19 GMT
Organization: The Midnite Group
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Pardon me, but what's the purpose for flogging this dead/buried/decayed
horse?

There will always be someone who's honked off at some con or other,
sometimes with good reason.  But, this was 8 YEARS AGO.  If you don't
like Boskone, don't go to it.  Ditto for any other con.

BTW, for those who don't like the way a given con is run, the best way
to change things is to get involved with it.  Second best is to offer
constructive critisism and alternatives to the stuff that you don't
like.  Flaming the committee doesn't do much.

Flames to NLA0:  (/dev/null for you un*x types)

Carl Zwanzig
zbang@access.digex.com
.NoSigToday
From: zardoz@sycom.mi.org (David Lillard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Film/video room
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:01:41 GMT
Organization: Michigan Information eXchange
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! V0.975

Twenty years ago, one of the most popular, and prevalent, aspects of shows was
the all-night movie room.  There used to be rental companies that we rented
films from for nominal fees - because there was no *direct* charge to view the
films - they were "free" to all Convention members.  Because of the 
"promotional" value of the conventions, we also used to get *some* films and
television show episodes - at NO charge - direct from the production studios
(sometimes the studios would get Union clearances for the showings).

As time went on, however, the hotels started banning all-night films, because
they felt it was cutting down on room occupancy (probably correct).  And the
Studios and Unions became less cooperative (partly due to shows that took
unfair advantage, or just acted stupidly, IMHO) and/or more greedy.

Ah... those were the days.  To wake up in the middle of the night to see the
creature from Valley of the Gwangi roaring - bigger than life - in your face.
Almost as unsettling as waking up with... Well, that's *another* story.

Best, Dave.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Subject: ConFrancisco babysitting
Summary: I need a little information about it
Keywords:  childcare, child, baby
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell University Medical College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 14:32:18 GMT

Tried to grab a little info, but haven't gotten any so far.  Email to
the internet eddress seems to be ignored, so I thought I'd ask here.

What's the deal on babysitting an Confrancisco?  We originally signed our
son up as a kid-in-tow because we were trying to get our memberships in
ASAP with no information, but we'd like to convert him to whatever
babysitting there is so he has someone to _play_ with at the con, as
opposed to being bored to tears (literally) getting dragged around by
us.

Anyone have info?  Thanks.

--
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: Donald E. Eastlake, III <dee@ranger.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Re: Arisia vs. Boskone
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <1992Dec31.150957.2275@nuchat.sccsi.com>
     <1992Dec31.163944.22566@athena.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:25:31 GMT

>From: anderson@allvax.enet.dec.com (Dave Anderson)
>Subject: Re: What really happened after Boskone 24 (was Re: Arisia
vs. Boskone)
>Message-ID: <1992Dec31.183737.3311@ryn.mro4.dec.com>
>Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
>References: <9212282303.AA13694@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> 
><1992Dec30.002935.17055@radian.uucp>
<1992Dec30.194328.5873@ryn.mro4.dec.com> 
><1992Dec31.150957.2275@nuchat.sccsi.com>
<1992Dec31.163944.22566@athena.mit.edu>
>Date: 31 DEC 92 13:29:08 EST

>In article <1992Dec31.163944.22566@athena.mit.edu>, amd@space.mit.edu
(Ann M. 
>Davis) writes...
>>Whether intended or not, the message my friends and I got from the 
>>letter was "If 'we' (NESFA), don't know you (personally), you can't
come"

>A number of people read that into the letter; it was definitely not
intended,
>and we regret that people took it that way.

"Can't come" is too strong.  However, the letter explicitly states that
persons under the age of 18 will be treated differently depending on
whether or not they are personnally known.

The whole tone of the letter is that the clock was being turned back
many
years, that long time Boskone members were welcome and their opinions
would be given weight but most of the newbie riff-raff was being tossed
except those who were interested in the re-oriented Boskone and could
attend on probation.  As the owner of Boskone, NESFA was certainly
entitled to do that, and I think it is very close to the model many
NESFAns had of excatly what they wanted to do.

>While many people took the letter as we intended, enough didn't so
that (IMHO)
>it evidently was not as clearly-written as it should have been; in
our defense,
>all I can say is that it was written in a period of high stress and
little
>available time.

I think you are trying to re-write history Dave.  It seems to me that
NESFA
explicitly voted to take the actions it did and send out the letter,
because it
felt it was necessary to save Boskone, knowing full well that thousands
people would be offended and there would be a lingering bitterness for
years.
Boskone is free to present itself as it wishes for its current
incarnations.
I should think people would be willing to forgive what they see as
offense
sooner or later.  But I think it is a bad idea to say that NESFA meant
no
offense years ago when it took actions it knew full well would offend
many people.

>	Dave (anderson@allvax.enet.dec.com)

Donald
(guess I'll try posting this to see if I can keep it with the previous
thread)
From: mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Boskone Art Show (was Re: Hello Confrancisco?)
Date: 26 Dec 92 08:28:24 GMT
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA

jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:

> Woah. Back up a second.  I never said that Worldcons SHOULD
> discourage mail-in art. What I said was that any convention has
> a number of ways to allocate their work force, and that it was
> perfectly reasonable for a worldcon to limit mail-ins (which
> take more work) as part of this work allocation.  If I were
> running the Art Show (which I don't: I typically work Program
> or Services), I would do this. However, I'm not saying that
> other worldcons can't chose to budget their fanpower differently.

I seem to have taken something out of context and flamed you as much out
of frustration with other problems as with a fundimental disagreement with
what I thought you were saying. I do apologize for dumping on you when it
itsn't your area.

Perhaps it's time *I* took a rest too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis -> mwallis@lunacity.com

PLAN:   Live fast, die young, leave a neat corpse.
        Oh ... I'm too old to die young?     Rats!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: tim@smof.demon.co.uk (Tim Illingworth)
Subject: Re: Conadian 
Distribution: world
Organization: None round here!
Reply-To: tim@smof.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:21:43 +0000

In article <lq12270@pro-smof.cts.com> wixer!cactus.org!wixer!pro-smof.cts.com!rreedyrreedy@cactus.org writes:

>   What is the rate for a supporting membership to Conadian in 1994?       
> 

$US 25 or $CAN 30.  Attending rises from $US 75 ($CAN 85) to $US 85
($CAN 95) on 1.Jan.93.  These rates are valid until 30.Sept.93.

Converstion is at the difference in prices.  These rates were taken from
Conadian PR2.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Illingworth            | SF Conventions supplied in all sizes:
Chessington, Surrey, UK    | Helicon     :Eastercon & Eurocon '93: Jersey CI
tim@smof.demon.co.uk       | Smofcon 10  :16-18 April 1993       : Jersey CI
timill@cix.compulink.co.uk | Intersection:Worldcon: 24-28 Aug '95: Glasgow
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmf@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Tom Godwin
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:25:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Dec27.162547.24208
Organization: DAS Purchasing, Harvard University

In article <9212270813.AA18977@rutgers.edu> AANO05@sakacs00.BITNET (ADNAN NIAZY) writes:
>Tom Godwin a pseudonym for someone else?  I recently saw a game called
>Ragnarok listed in a software collection.  Now Ragnarok was the name of
>the prison planet in Godwin's book, and it is very difficult for me to
>believe that two independent people would come up with such an
>imaginative name.  Can anyone shed any light?
>Diane Niazy

You're going to be real sorry you asked, at least in this group;
but you asked innocently enough, so: Neither came up with the name.

Ragnorok is the Norse Mythological Twilight of the Gods,
where the all the Aesar (gods with attributes of sky & elements, as opposed
to Vanir, gods associated with earth & fertility)
are defeated each famous one by the monster he had vanquished 'until
Ragnorak time comes'.  Each kills his monster, then is killed by their
death throes. 

The coming of this time is heralded by
'great wars, strife & hatred unchecked by bonds of kinship,
appalling of deeds of murder & incest, a period of bitter cold wherin
the sun & moon are swallowed up, the star fall from the sky,
the World Tree shakes and all fettered monsters break loose'.
Sound familiar?

The universe ends in great violence, but arises eventually 
"from the waves, fertile, green and fair as never before, cleansed of
all its suffering & evil". A couple people who hid out in the World Tree
emerge to repopulate the world...

See almost anything on Norse Mythology, including

Bullfinch's Mythology
This get maligned unjustly for some reason.
I read it at the same age I read most
other classic-era science fiction, age 8-12. 


Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, 
by H.R. Ellis Davidson, 
Penguin Books 1964, ISBN #0-14-02.0670-1
(paraphrasals & quote above are from here)

Davidson suggests you go read the Eddas for yourself, & I will, someday...
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:16875 rec.arts.books:23689
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Date: 2 Jan 1993 08:16:04 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: milton.u.washington.edu

In article <1i3afsINN8ll@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu 
(Curtis Yarvin) writes:

>Hmm.  How about:
>
>	Expose students to whatever the hell they want to read.

_How to Achieve a Rich and Fulfilling Spiritual Life while Eating 
Pizza_, _Everything I Need to Know I Know Already_, and assorted 
collections of Calvin and Hobbes cartoons. 
>
>And when the classics become no longer relevant to modern men, they
>will die off; as, perhaps, they should.

Yeah, right.  Bonjour tristesse; adieu M. Proust.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer)
Subject: Re: the river world series
Organization: Indiana University, University Computing Services
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:13:19 GMT

Nick.Allan@f503.n635.z3.fidonet.org (Nick Allan) writes:
| Hi all
| 
| Can anyone tell me if there is a continuation to the river world series
| by Philip Farmer after the book called "The Magic Laberenth"
| 
| Thanks in advance.

I believe it was called 'Gods of Riverworld'. Wasn't too bad of a
novel, though I didn't like the explanations it had for the existence
and origin of Riverworld. Typical Farmer. BTW, the Dayworld series was
pretty good.


----
Chuck Stringer
E-mail cstringe@ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: F&SF, Asimov's
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 18:32:42 GMT

ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander) writes:

>This might have been discussed on the newsgroup before I joined it,
>but anyway...

>Do you like the new F&SF better than the old one?
>   _
>-- Ojvind

I don't; but only because Ms. Rusch seems so immodest. For example,
she puts an editorial in each issue; and unlike Stanley Schmidt's,
hers never say much of anything. She also included a story of hers 
in a recent issue which was not up to the quality of the other stories.

On the other hand, I like the new science columns, particularly
Sterling's, much better than Asimov's.

By the way, reading the anniversary issue of Analog really made
me realize how much the magazine has deteriorated in the past few
years. The anniversary issue was good, but not that much better
than a typical late 80's Analog. I think the quality of the
magazine has changed even since then.

Lenore Levine 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 1 Jan 93 10:37:11

In article <1i2185INNlvc@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

   Laura Mollett writes:

	   I wrote the librarian a note, and asked that she be allowed
	   to check out the books (and mentioned the "Easy" books were 
	   not challenging to her anyway) and this privilege was 
	   immediately granted.  

	   Sometime later I get a note from the librarian that says, 
	   in part: Of course, Amanda may choose more challenging 
	   reading material.  I will be delighted to help her select 
	   something more substantial. However, I really feel that 
	   there are more appropriate choices for Amanda's maturity 
	   level than _The Babysitter's Club_.  I hope when she 
	   finishes the series she will embrace the multitude of 
	   excellent literature we have at Ashland.  I will be glad 
	   to provide you with a list of books if you so desire.

	   Is there any reason at all why I should choose her "for 
	   fun" reading forher from a list.  What's wrong with what 
	   she chooses for herself?

	   Any suggestions?

   Its hard to fault the school librarion's behavior. Wasn't she doing precisely
   what we want those people to do? Its not a question of "what's wrong with
   what she chooses for herself?", but a question of parental or in loco parentis
   guidance. You might as well argue that children should decide their own
   curriculum (some do!). But there's another point. You seem to have difficulty
   accepting the "in loco parentis" role that you must allow the school to
   play -- to an extent that is reasonable. You caught a certain pattern of
   rather harmless anti-social behavior from your own mother and are ready to
   imprint the same behavior in your daughter.

   My advice? Explain to your daughter that the libranian is there to help, and
   encourage her listen to the teacher but then determine for herself what she
   wants to read.

							   RABworm

My experience as a child was that public librarians let me read what I
wanted after I got my parents to fill out a form giving me permission
to take books from the adult collection.  However, my tastes were
probably not very controversial, running to adventure stories
considered appropriate for older children, later to popular science
aimed at adults and still later to college level mathematics.

However, I have heard some horror stories about the bossiness of
librarians, especially school librarians.  In such bureaucratic cases,
children cannot fight their own battles and need parental help.

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: mkb@cs.cmu.edu (Mike Blackwell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Results of electronic SF
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:41:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.C032Hw.8LE.2
Reply-To: mkb@cs.cmu.edu
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU


A while ago, a number of short stories were made available to net
users via FTP (I think by the Clarinet folks). At the time, they asked
for a donation to the authors, as if you had bought a real book of
short stories. So I've been wondering:

How many people retreived the stories (should be a record from the FTP
log)? How many people sent any money? What was the average amount?
Total? Percent checks vs. email credit card #'s?

(I don't want individuals mailing me with what they personally did,
please, just the final figures).

I thought it was an intersting experiment in a possible future
direction for publishing. Just curious as to the results...	-mike-
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:08:06 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson) writes:

> Yes, I agree with this. Niven/Pournelle books are not the same as Niven
> books. Many people like both, of course, but I find that I quite enjoy
> the collaborative efforts but can't finish most books by Niven alone. My
> perception is that Niven has these great ideas, and Pournelle adds stuff
> like plot and characterization. Your mileage may vary. Flames to /dev/null.
> IMHO. Insert favorite disclaimer. 

I think you've got the basic idea there.  By Niven's own admission, 
Barnes added the horror theme to _Legacy of Hereot_.  So it's 1. Niven 
has the ideas; 2. Pournelle has the characterization; and 3. Barnes has 
the horror.


  ____  Erik Max Francis -- ..!apple!uuwest!max -- max@west.darkside.com   __
  \  /  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1  San Jose, CA  95117  37 20 N 121 53 W  ACGT  /  \
   \/   Like strategic interstellar conquest games?  Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
        Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.   All things that are, are lights.
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: 2001, 2010, 2061
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:01:55 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk

kasprj@jec310.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:

>In article <urf.724794299@sw2001>, urf@icl.se (Urban F) writes:

(about Arthur C. Clarke)
>|> these two are very different from most of his other novels, as most
>|> of them are set up so that it is impossible for them to be sequels
>|> to each other.
> 
> Well, actually, so are _2001_, _2010_ and _2061_. They're sequels of 
>alternate-universe versions of each other.

I'm quite aware that _2010_ is a sequel to the movie _2001_, not the
book, but I didn't notice anything of the sort with _2061_. Maybe I
didn't read it carefully enough.
--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Name this book.......*pleeezze!*
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 12:08:24 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo

In article <1h418gINNj9m@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> saruman@cats.ucsc.edu (Nicholas Patrick Popoff) writes:
>	Futuristic military type deal, flashback to "starship troopers" with
>people doing combat drops out of spaceships.  But the deal is that the
>drops are basically suicide, and a troop only has to do one or two before
>they get released.    Well, the main character gets lost in the paperwork or
>something, and they keep on droping him and dropping him and he keeps on
>coming back.  As i understand it, the book is funny, and probably written
>in the first person.  

This is a slightly mangled synopsis of "The Forever War" by Joe
Haldeman.  Eminently worth reading, though I wouldn't describe it as
"funny" except intermittently.  Dark, satirical, wry, sentimental and
humane would apply.  It does have a few laughs in it, but don't
expect anything like the horrible "comic SF" genre of, say, Pratchett.

-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books