HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brian@grot.starconn.com (Brian Smithson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: Re: PERSONAL DIGITAL ASSISTANTS ON HOLD
Keywords: San Jose Mercury News, pen computing, PDA
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:04:46 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.pen
Organization: Brian Smithson

A couple of thoughts about SJMN article about a re-evaluation of the PDA
market:


If Sculley is backpedaling, perhaps it's because the marketplace is primed
and ready for products (in large part because of Apple's own hype), but
Sculley is worried that Apple won't be able to deliver product or price.
It's not atypical for a large company to try to chill a market in order to
get buyers to wait for *their* product.  IBM was famous for this.  Even if
the initial batch of PDA products aren't big sellers because they cost too
much or because too few people know what to do with them, those initial
products may set important standards and precedents, and products which are
still in development could find themselves precluded before they get to
market.

The other thing which might be holding up PDA products is that the sub-$400
prices are going to difficult to deliver in a standalone product.  But a PDA
isn't necessarily a standalone product: if you add networking services
into the picture, then one might just want to "give 'em the PDA and
sell 'em the networking".  It seems to be taking shape, but I don't think
that either the networking infrastructure or the corporate alliances are
in place to make that a reality just yet.  

-- 
-Brian Smithson
 brian@grot.starconn.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: Cohena@mdc.com (Andy Cohen)
Subject: Re: Newton Technology
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 16:28:09 GMT
Organization: MDGAC
Followup-To: comp.sys.pen

In article <1e10sbINNiru@uwm.edu>, anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J
Stieber) wrote:
> 

> Me too.  Especially since Newton isn't anything new.  Handheld pen
> computers have been around for years.  The software that does what
> Newton machines do has been around for years.  All Apple is doing is
> putting it together.  As it happens AT&T has beat them to it.  Read
> comp.sys.pen, it's where the serious pen traffic is.
> 

I am not all too sure that the pen aspect of Newton is the real point(ouch
sorry about that!)....  It seems more to me that the pen input device is
simply like the mouse to the Mac....just the tip of the ice burg...  

I'm more intrigued by the "Free-form data collection" capabilities....
The Apple pamphlet describes a new form of database design which is free
form and allows flexibility and "intelligence" ......and the recognition
learning routines....are any of the other pen-hand-helds selling fully
integrated recognition ala write the numbers then draw the line under them
to get the sum the way Apple is touting the Newton PDA????

Don't forget that the guy behind the SW stuff is Larry Tesler...the guy who
got Apple to build the MacApp library....These guys got the Alan Kay vision
driving them as well.

AT&T, IBM, Grid, HP and even the newer guys do not have the marketing
skills of Apple, the evanglism experience, nor the cash, nor the
network-organization setup with Asian companies....too bad they are
dropping the ball big time with developers on this...

While I'm not saving my $ for a Newton-PDA or preparing to sell my 95LX, I
would not be surprised to see Apple stomp the market....  

Ya got to admit...it's fun to watch them run!

Andy Cohen           |                   |  |        Support Freedom!
MDSSC                |  /       OO    /  |  |
                     -----------------------
                     |                   |  |
                     |                   |  |
From: eric@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Eric Wertz)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:00:41 GMT
Subject: Re: GRiD Convertible Announcement
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen

Yeah, it sounds like a reasonable box -- but when is it gonna run PenPoint...?
If never, why not?

-e
From: rivero@cc.unizar.es (rivero)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: Re: PERSONAL DIGITAL ASSISTANTS ON HOLD
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:01:11 GMT
Organization: fisica teorica UZ
X-Xxdate: Sat, 14 Nov 92 20:58:34 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12

In article <1992Nov16.021916.12721@riacs.edu> Douglas G. Danforth,
danforth@riacs.edu writes:
>... a lot of reports...

and...


Can anyone explain then why the HP products can be sold? 
Get a 48sx ($250) add the Screen, the cpu and the muP, and you have got
a PDA! 
(I agree, lisp on a 48 is slooow, but 
Apple would pay for the components of a mythical
> PDA today, based on a composite of the figures
> from industry analysts and manufacturers:
>
>		    Pen: $125
>	    Pen-sensitive screen: $175
>	       Expansion slot: $10
>       Communication: $35 to $150 (wired);
>	              $10 to $500 (wireless)
>	  Case and power supply: $50-70
>	 Storage, 20 megabytes: $300-600
>     Microprocessor and "mother-board": $100
>		Memory chips: $140
>	     Software licenses: $100
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: testarne@stanmore.media.mit.edu (Thad E Starner)
Subject: Momenta computer
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:07:41 GMT

	is simply the best pentop I've seen out there yet (as a product).  If the
developers are listening out there, I would like to thank you for the fine work
that you put into this machine.  It is the first pentop I have enjoyed using (and
I've looked at a few) and that I can find a niche for in my work (with a little
modification).  I am truly sorry that the company wasn't able to tide over until
the next wave of demand hits.  

	Sorry for the bandwidth, but I couldn't contact these people directly over the phone to express my satisfaction.

						Thad Starner
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
From: sadik@csa.bu.edu (Sadik Tokgoz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.pen
Subject: test
Date: 22 Nov 92 18:18:24 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: sadik@csa

Sorry for this message....
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: jtk@s1.gov (Jordin Kare)
Subject: Trying to reach Forrest Aldrich
Summary: Apologies for the Net traffic
Organization: LLNL
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:32:37 GMT

Sorry to waste net bandwidth.

Forrest Aldrich
morwyn!forrie@unhtel.unh.edu       

I'm unable to reach you via email.  You were interested in 
3b1 hardware (2 disk adapter) I had for sale.  Please send
email and/or call 510-426-0363 if you're still interested.

	Jordin Kare
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: jwstok01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: "new" wmgr (was Re: Unix system V question)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:36:09 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <1992Nov15.060836.24228@gnosys.svle.ma.us>, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>...  What else is it supposed to do for us?  There's no documentation in the 
> install file:

I just talked to a local 3b1/3b2 guru (who has "friends in AT&T" who worked on
the software/system for *both* machines*) and he says that the only advantage
of the 1.7 versoin is that it toggles IMMEDIATELY between windows.  I do not
know if 1.8 toggles immediately or if it goes to the wmgr menu.  The "old" wmgr
I had went to the menu and you had to pick which process to go to.  This is a
real pain to me esp. w/ "Unknown Process" because I get about 5 or 6 of these
sometimes.  *I prefer* being able to "page" quickly through my windows.

>     Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
> Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: adh@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.d.hay)
Subject: Re: How much memory do I have? ...and I need an OS update...
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:10:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.150957.19947@brtph560.bnr.ca> hruska@bnr.ca (Bob Hruska P840) writes:
"I have the OLD OLD OLD 7300 motherboard (with daughterboard)  It has 512K
"on board and a 512K card.  Can I do the memory upgrade on this, too?  If so,
"where is it documented?  If not, why not?

yes -- details in the faq, i believe.

-- 
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Hay	|		one step beyond the outer limits  of	       |
a_d_hay@att.com	|		the twilight zone in the darkened room	       |
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: forrie@morwyn.uucp (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Taylor UUCP
Organization: Vision Graphics
			  Dover, NH
			  USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:51:38 GMT
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp!forrie@unhtel.unh.edu (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)

From article <1992Nov22.171023.12529@colnet.cmhnet.org>,
res@colnet.cmhnet.org (Rob Stampfli) has written:
+--------------------
| Has anyone installed the Taylor UUCP package on a 3B1?  If so, I would like
| to hear from you, especially if you've successfully use it with STARLAN.
+--------------------

	Not yet, but it's on my 'to do' list.  I'm waiting for the 1.04
	'official' release to begin.  In particular, the company I currently
	work for has expressed interest in moving to Taylor UUCP (they have
	a UUCP based network).

	Anybody else?  I would imagine it not that difficult to port... and
	we could even add in OBM support if need be.

	Forrest
-- 
	   -----------	      Forrest Aldrich	      -----------
	   -------     morwyn!forrie@unhtel.unh.edu	  -------
	   ----						     ----
	   --	     VISION GRAPHICS --	Dover, NH - USA	       --
	   ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: alanf@eng.tridom.com (Alan Fleming)
Subject: Re: Hardware Hackers for hire? (was: Re: Drivers?)
Reply-To: alanf@eng.tridom.com (Alan Fleming)
Organization: AT&T Tridom, Engineering
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:34:01 GMT

In article <BxroC6.B68@hico2.westmark.com>, kak@hico2.westmark.com (Kris A. Kugel) writes:
> 
> I'm in the same boat.  I've got at least two hardware projects
> on wait for two years now (Vidpal and Gil's two disk upgrade)
> I'm trying to talk my girlfriend into helping attempt a motherboard
> hardware upgrade, but little progress so far.
> 
> I've also noticed the number of systems sold that also advertise
> unused hardware upgrade kits -- looks like I'm not alone.
> 
I've had my Vidpal for three years and Gil's upgrade for about a year.  When I
had the time, I didn't have the experience with a soldering iron.  Now I've got
the experience by not time.

Think Peace.
-- Alan (alanf@eng.tridom.com)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: gak@wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Supported Disks?
Reply-To: gak@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:32:38 GMT

Many many thanks to scott@geom.umn.edu for
the boatload of 3B1 disk information!

I owe you a beer...

gak

---
Richard Stueven       AHA# 22584 |----------|
Internet:            gak@wrs.com |----GO----| Disclaimer: I'm not allowed to
ATTMAIL: ...!attmail!gakhaus!gak |---SHARX--|             have opinions.
Cow Palace:            107/H/3-4 |----------|

Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: kak@hico2.westmark.com (Kris A. Kugel)
Subject: Disableing the phone to gain speed (was: Re: 3b1 Magic POKE?)
Summary: Do we have to wait for the source?
Keywords: phone device driver 3B1 unixpc att7300 on-board modem
Reply-To: kak@hico2.westmark.com
Organization: High Country Software
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:53:54 GMT

Craig M. Votava (cmv@looney.att.com) wrote:
: |>         My motivation for asking this is to inquire whether you 
: |> have found any "magic pokes" that can enhance the present system in 
: |> the tradition of the "serial.pat" adb script.  As I recall you 
: |> folks mentioned that the 3b1 polled the status of the /dev/ph 
: |> devices every clock tick (60Hz on the 3b1), and you theorized that 
: |> a gain could be gotten by disabling this polling.
: 
: Yes, in fact one of the guys who was on customer support for the unix-pc
: kernel told me that a total rewrite of the phone polling code to make it
: interrupt driven would save quite a bit of processing time.

If we could get good speedups if the phone code was
that interrupt-driven rather than polled, shouldn't
we be able to do something even before the source code
becomes available?  (which, after all, may be never)

What I THINK the questioner was asking, (and what I'd
be interested in hearing) was if a kernel patch could
be developed that would disable the phone handling altogether.

Personally, having invested in a worldblazer, I'd rather
my worldblazer be able to process at 1600cps, rather
than have a second phone available at 120cps.  Given that
tradeoff, I'd just as soon disable anything having to do
with that on-board modem, or at least prior to a new kernel
with a less-costly modem processing scheme.
And I'd guess the phone polling slows EVERYTHING down,
not just the serial port.

It seems to me like a patch to replace the (hypothical)
call to the phone-status checking routine with a no-op
would do the trick.  At least it SOUNDS easy.

So let me add some additional encouragement for somebody (Craig?)
to look into this.  The first step would be to see what the entry
points into the phone polling code are, and if they are separate
enough to disable easily.  I'd bet on some (a) easily disabled
subroutine call(s).

Kris A. Kugel	908-842-2707
hico2!kak	kak@hico2.westmark.com
From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
Subject: Re: Unix system V question
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:43:19 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences

In article <93140@rphroy.ph.gmr.com>, tkacik@hobbes.hobbes.cs.gmr.com (Tom Tkacik) writes:
|> 
|> Don't hold your breath.  This idea has been thrown around for almost as long as the
|> 3b1 has existed.  The reasons it has not been done are many, (so many in fact that
|> I can't remember a single one, but they are there none the less :-).
|> I believe that the 3b1 does not have enough virtual space to support BSD, but
|> I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
|> 

It would appear that this is not quite true.  I was one of the people who
suggested a port of BSD might be nice a couple months ago.  In the many
responses I saw, I learned a few interesting things.

Not only has BSD been ported to the 3B1, it apparently has also been ported
to the 3B2!!  Unfortunately, not only is neither port available publicly, but
they are so proprietary, they are not even available privately as commercial
products.

But at least it shows that it is possible, and soneday when I have lots of
free time.....

bill

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@cs.uofs.edu         |  This space would be left intentionally blank
                              |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
From: tkacik@hobbes.cs.gmr.com (Tom Tkacik)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
Subject: Re: Hardware Hackers for hire? (was: Re: Drivers?)
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:53:54 GMT
Reply-To: tkacik@hobbes.cs.gmr.com
Organization: GM Research Labs

In article 8059@gnosys.svle.ma.us, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>My own situation is that I have both the experience, the time, and both kits,
>along with most of the necessary hardware (brand-new Priam 519 drive, cables,
>XT box to put things into, ICUS kit, vidpal) - but I still lack the courage!

How about a little encouragement from the peanut gallery? 

Go Gary!  You can do it!!  Yea!  Rah, Rah Rah!  Come on everyone, join in.
Help Gary get started on that project that only he can do, (as no one else has
all of the time, the experience, and the hardware ready to go).

Just open that sucker up and start soldering.  Once you get started you will find
that its too late to turn back, and you will finish it.  Now get going. :-)

--
Tom Tkacik
GM Research Labs
tkacik@hobbes.cs.gmr.com
tkacik@kyzyl.mi.org

Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1,comp.sys.att
From: jeff@cjsa (Jeffery Small)
Subject: floating point exception on the 3B1
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:17:13 GMT
Keywords: 3b1 fpe ieee
Organization: C. Jeffery Small and Associates


I recently posted a message asking if anyone had sucessfully compiled
mawk on the 3B1/7300/UNIXPC machine.  I received no responses, so I
am following up with a more specific question.

Is there some (as far as I can tell, undocumented) method for turning on
floating point exception trapping for normal math operations so that
division by zero, overflow, underflow, etc. will generate a SIGFPE (or
can be trapped by some other mechanism)? If so, could you provide the
necessary details.

This is for the 3B1 machine running version 3.51m of the OS.

Thanks for any help you may be able to offer.
--
Jeff Small                     C. Jeffery Small & Associates    (206) 232-3338
jeff@cjsa                      7000 E Mercer Way,  Mercer Island, WA     98040
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: hruska@bnr.ca (Bob Hruska P840)
Subject: Re: How much memory do I have? ...and I need an OS update...
Originator: hruska@brtph380
Organization: bnr
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:09:57 GMT

From article <1992Nov20.115615.23808@cbnews.cb.att.com>, by adh@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.d.hay):
...
> 
> btw, with a pile of 256K chips [and sockets] and a little time [;^>],
> you can upgrade your machine to 4M ram.
> 
> -- 
>               +--------------------------------------------------------------+
> Andrew Hay    |               one step beyond the outer limits  of           |
> a_d_hay@att.com       |               the twilight zone in the darkened room         |
>               +--------------------------------------------------------------+

I have the OLD OLD OLD 7300 motherboard (with daughterboard)  It has 512K
on board and a 512K card.  Can I do the memory upgrade on this, too?  If so,
where is it documented?  If not, why not?


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bob Hruska         DoD #1982 | email: hruska@bnr.ca                        |
| BNR Inc. - XPM Base Software |USmail: 35 Davis Drive                       |
| RTP North Carolina           |        Research Triangle Park, NC 27709     |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: adh@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.d.hay)
Subject: Re: Accessing the assembler
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:13:39 GMT
Keywords: Assembly language 68010 processor registers

In article <gcorke.721955276@cunews> gcorke@wassily.carleton.ca (Graham Corke) writes:
"Hello 3b1 supporters,
"          
"          Can anyone out there tell me how to access the assembler on
"the 3b1?. Is there a debugger for the 68010 assembly language?

if you give your files a .s extension, cc will compile them.
bear in mind that the compiler's assembler syntax is a little odd.
you can see a sample by compiling a c file with -S, which generates a
.s file.
there's no debugger _specifically_ for assembly...

"          Unrelated question, Does anyone know where I can obtain 
"the schematics for the 3b1, or anything close to it.

this info was just posted to this group last weekend.

-- 
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrew Hay	|	I am not an expert,				       |
a_d_hay@att.com	|			 but I play one on the Internet!       |
		+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: res@colnet.cmhnet.org (Rob Stampfli)
Subject: Re: Unix system V question
Organization: Little to None
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:03:21 GMT

>There are 1024 4K pages, thus giving the 4MB virtual memory limit.
>Along with the 12 address bits for each page, there are 4 other protection
>bits.  I believe these are read, write, and execute permission, plus a
>page modified bit.  

The MMU is configured into 1024 16 bit words, which map the 1024 pages of
virtual memory to their physical counterparts.  Ten of these 16 bits contain
MA21-MA12, the high order bits of the physical address the MMU translates a
virtual memory reference to.  Another 2 bits (PS0 and PS1) contain state
information about the status of the virtual memory:  whether the page is
(0) unallocated, (1) allocated (valid) but not yet accessed, (2) *has*
been accessed (which should be used to determine which pages are part of
the processes' working set, but which in reality is ignored by the kernel),
or (3) *has* been written-to (dirtied).  In addition, there is a bit which
indicates whether the memory is writeable.  Three bits are unused and
available for future expansion.  They are nominally zero, and I don't know
what the effect of setting them is.  The MMU is located at physcial address
x400000 - x4007FF and consists of high speed static RAM.

Note that there is no read or execute bits.  The kernel can read or execute
from any allocated page.  A user process can do the same except that there
is a hardware prohibition against a user process reading from the first 1/2
Meg of virtual memory.
-- 
Rob Stampfli  rob@colnet.cmhnet.org      The neat thing about standards:
614-864-9377  HAM RADIO: kd8wk@n8jyv.oh  There are so many to choose from.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: alanf@eng.tridom.com (Alan Fleming)
Subject: Re: Hardware Hackers for hire? (was: Re: Drivers?)
Reply-To: alanf@eng.tridom.com (Alan Fleming)
Organization: AT&T Tridom, Engineering
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:51:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.152200.8059@gnosys.svle.ma.us>, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
> 
> Well, I always like to think of the situation Alice found herself in in the
> immortal _Alice in Wonderland_ [...rest deleted...]

Talk about synchronicity, care to guess what book I finished reading, not
three hours ago, over lunch?

Ob3B1:  Scary that the price of used 3B1s is getting down to the same price 
of a new 40 meg HD.  I'd been looking at getting one as an upgrade and keeping
my 20 meg as a spare emergency boot disk.  Now it is cheaper to just by a 
spare machine...

I guess that would give me the spare motherboard for the kits I want to
install.

Think Peace.
-- Alan (alanf@eng.tridom.com)
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
Subject: Re: Taylor UUCP
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:26:43 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Nov23.005138.6264@morwyn.uucp> morwyn.uucp!forrie@unhtel.unh.edu (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin) writes:
|From article <1992Nov22.171023.12529@colnet.cmhnet.org>,
|res@colnet.cmhnet.org (Rob Stampfli) has written:
|+--------------------
|| Has anyone installed the Taylor UUCP package on a 3B1?  If so, I would like
|| to hear from you, especially if you've successfully use it with STARLAN.
|+--------------------

|	Not yet, but it's on my 'to do' list.  I'm waiting for the 1.04
|	'official' release to begin.  In particular, the company I currently
|	work for has expressed interest in moving to Taylor UUCP (they have
|	a UUCP based network).

|	Anybody else?  I would imagine it not that difficult to port... and
|	we could even add in OBM support if need be.

Taylor 1.03 installed very nicely on a 3b1, and has been flawlessly running
my v32bis/v42bis modem since April.  The install scripts make it pretty painless.
Having all those extra protocols is quite nice.

I've not upgraded to 1.04 yet - I'm waiting for the next iteration.

It's an impressive product.
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.3b1
From: mulvey@world.std.com (Richard K Mulvey)
Subject: Combo Board RS232 ports
Keywords: 3b1 combo board
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:51:57 GMT

Hello!

   I have a 3B1 with 2 Combo boards installed.  Until recently, I was
running version 3.0 software, but then upgraded to 3.51m.  Now it seems
that the drivers for the RS232 ports on the boards have disappeared.  Can
anyone tell me:

a)  How to reinstall drivers for the boards, if they are included with
    my new system software.

   or,

b)  Where I can get new drivers.

Thanks!

   - Rich



-- 
Rich Mulvey    mulvey@world.std.com       "A thing of beauty is a joy forever:
 {&&, ||}      73476.1142@compuserve.com   its loveliness increases; it will
Katy Mulvey  ( The new Mrs Mulvey! :-)     pass into nothingness..."