HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: larry@physics.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: Laaglander dried malt problem
Organization: Dept. of Physics/CRPP Carleton University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:52:28 GMT

 keithr@pathogen.med.umn.edu (Henry Keith Reding (Rogers))u> on 9 Dec 92
 15:35:01 wrote:

>Has anyone out there used Laaglander spray-dried malt extract as
>the sole sugar source and had a successful beer with a reasonable
>F.G.?  From the postings I've read lately, it seems the problem is 
>not dependent on the yeast strain used, the presence of adjuncts or even other
>  malt extracts, such as M & F.   My guess is that 
>the Laaglander dried extract just has alot of nonfermentable
>carbon in it leading to a high F.G.  Any thoughts?

nonfermentable carbon? As in carbon = sugars? You've hit the nail right on
the head.  Laaglander does this on purpose to give a `creamier' brew.
John Bull does it too.  I like this type of beer.

-Larry
From: mark@verdix.com (Mark Lundquist)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Aeration of wort?
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:10:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: verdix.9261
Organization: Verdix Western Operations, Aloha  OR

In article <1992Dec15.171346.10670@minnow.sp.unisys.com> ralph@minnow.UUCP (Ralph Smith) writes:
>I have been wondering about this aeration thing for some time now.
>A few years ago, I was setting up a marine aquarium and the general
>feeling at that time was that the bubblers in a tank provide virtually
>no aeration of significance, and that the bulk of the aeration effect was
>at the water/air interface on the surface of the tank.
>So, my question is:
>Whats all this about shaking and stirring your wort? According to the
>aquarists(?) we're just fooling ourselves.
>Is the real benefit just the mixing action with the yeast, exposing it   
>to all that good wort faster?
>Or - are the aquarium folks all wet?

Well, even if the aquarium folks are right about "aquarium bubbler vs.
no bubbler", I don't know if you can extrapolate that to "sloshing,
etc. vs. doing nothing."  I assume that fish lovers have other reasons
for not wanting to subject their fishtanks to the same treatment that
is recommended for carboys full of wort (i.e., shake the bejabbers out
of it)!  In other words, if the "aquarians" are right it would only
mean that putting an aquarium pump in your wort (don't laugh) won't
help; not *necessarily* that sloshing, etc. won't.

Cheers!
--mark

P.S. If we really want to find out, we could split a batch out into 3
fermenters and proceed as follows:
	#1: no special efforts to aerate
	#2: vigorous sloshing immediately before pitching
	#3: vigorous sloshing immediately after pitching
This would tell you if (a) sloshing does any good, and (b) if so,
whether that is a result of mixing rather than aeration (frankly, I'd
be suprised if that were the case).

I'll let you do the experiment though...I'm still new enough to
brewing that I can't stand the though of sacrificing a batch of beer
on the altar of brewing knowledge gained! :-)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Help
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean  VA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:07:33 GMT

In article <1gkk3gINN1l6@cad17.genrad.com>
 aaa@cad17.genrad.com (Andy A. Alvino) writes:

>1)  About yeast starters:  I know that you boil a 1.020 wort, cool, and add 
>the contents of the swollen liquid yeast package.  But what about 
>fermentation?  Is the bottle open, covered with foil, or is an air lock 
>used?

Use an air-lock.  Or equivalent.  I personally use an old orange juice 
bottle for my starter, because the same stopper that goes in my carboy fits 
nicely in the opening of this bottle.  After pouring in the contents of the 
starter, I put the airlock and stopper from the starter on the carboy.

>Also, what about temperature?  Does the type of yeast, ale or lager, 
>dictate the starter fermentation temperature?

Well, you want your starter temperature the same as your wort temperature 
when you pitch.

>2)  I'm about to make my first lager.  Is 50 F a suitable temperature for 
>fermentation?  After bottling, at what temperature are the bottles stored 
>at, 50 F or room temperature (65 - 70 F).

Depends on your recipe and the style of beer you are making.  Many lagers 
are fermented at 50F.

>3)  About sanitation:  Is boiling utensils better than a bleach/water rinse?
>What about B-Brite, is this stuff any good?

Sure, boiling everything is great.  You can really sanitize plastic 
fermenters/buckets by filling them with boiling water.  It is just harder to 
do this in most kitchen environments.  

I have never used B-Brite, but others have with great success.  I just use 
laundry bleach with no scents or other such additives (food-grade bleach), 
since I already have it around the house.  However, it isn't too nice to 
stainless steel over time, so I may get some iodophor.


John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo@mitre.org
From: juancho@cs.ubc.ca (John)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: What's REALLY in a Campden Tablet?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:49:25 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: giraf.cs.ubc.ca

joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall) writes:


>What is the nominal type and quantity of ingredients in a Campden
>tablet?

>I have some "Campden tablets" that weigh in at about 700mg.  How much
>of this is potassium metabisulfite and how much is something else?

>If 1 Campden tablet per gallon of wort/must is supposed to produce
>50ppm, then the weight of potassium met must be about 200mg.  Or is
>this 50ppm of sulfite ion?  That would imply a somewhat greater weight.

>Just confused, that's all.

	My understanding is that it is 56% potassium metabisulfite.  Now
what the remaining part is I do not know....  I got this from the wine-art
catalogue which has managed to hide itself right now.  Pardon me if I am
misquoting it.

	juancho
From: ddjohnson@galaxy.gov.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Celebration mead
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:47:27 -0800
Distribution: all
Organization: BC Systems Corporation

In article <Bz05r3.EAF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu (The Baker) writes:
>  A friend and I were thinking of brewing a mead to celebrate graduation
> with.  We were looking at Papazian's Barkshack Gingermead and wondered
> if anyone had any experience with it.  All comments welcome!
> Edwin

I started a batch this summer and bottled at the end of July. Mr. 
Papazian says it needs to age a year. I tasted a sample 
a couple of weeks ago and he's correct! The flavours were still 
harsh and not blended. I only hope it wasn't the wine yeast I
used (can't get champaign yeast here and I didn't realise I 
should have used ale yeast).

Ask me again in seven months!

Doug.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Johnson			"To live is to hope."
Smithers, British Columbia	 Cambodian proverb
CANADA				
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Aeration of wort?
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean  VA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:18:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.181916.10115@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
 andy rogers <rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov> writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.161001.9327@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com> Charlie Murray,
>murray@rocky.raleigh.ibm.com writes:
>>My local homebrew shop (American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC) is going to 
>>sell an aeriation device that is basically a fish tank bubbler.  The claim 
>>is that by leaving this thing in your primary for the first 24 hours, you 
>>will get superior aeriation and subsequently fermentation (versus the 
>>slosh method). Are they on the mark?

>consider that you will be pumping air from the room into your beer and that
>air will be replacing the CO2 which would otherwise be resting in the
>fermenter headspace. unless you've also got a tank of 'clean' oxygen you're
>pumping from.
>
>i wouldn't do it.

Well, reports I heard from the AHA convention on the use of such a device 
involved a filter that was small enough (5 microns???) to keep out the 
unwanted microorganisms in your air.

Anyone with more details on this or the device being marketed as mentioned 
above?

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo@mitre.org
From: dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: thanks alot
Date: 15 Dec 1992 23:31:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: papillon.ucsd.edu

sayre@chopin.cas.american.edu writes:
>Both batches started out with a tremendous initial fermentation (both
>blew off close to 1.5 gallons of beer, and I almost had my eye put out

Thanks alot. Just when I've tried to convince people that homebrewing is
a safe and sane hobby. Now I'll hear endless, "you'll put your eye out"'s

Dan Harkins
From: jhh@sprite.berkeley.edu (John H. Hartman)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping Questions...
Date: 16 Dec 1992 01:10:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: loiter.berkeley.edu

In article <BzBstH.EK4@wrs.com> gak@wrs.com writes:
>In article 23200001@hpkslx.mayfield.HP.COM, russ@hpkslx.mayfield.HP.COM (Russ Lown) writes:
>>
>>Maybe some of you whom have "dry hopped" could tell me what method you use.
>

I just dump the hops into the secondary. To siphon the beer out of
the secondary I put a nylon pot scrubber inside a hop bag and put
the bag over the end of the siphon tube. This keeps the hops from
clogging the tube. As for avoiding infection, my technique is to
"don't worry and have a homebrew". I've only dry-hopped a handful
of batches but haven't had a problem yet.

John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
John H. Hartman
Graduate Student, UCB Sprite project
jhh@sprite.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Fermentation time
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean  VA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:31:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.203239.13749@paladin.american.edu>
 sayre@chopin (Kirk Sayre) writes:

>Is it reasonable for a high gravity beer to ferment completely in
>under 48 hours?  The reason I ask is that in my last batch (6 pounds
>canned extract, 2 pounds honey) and in my current batch 
>(10 pounds canned extract) the fermentation stopped after
>approximately 36 hours.
>
>Both batches started out with a tremendous initial fermentation (both
>blew off close to 1.5 gallons of beer, and I almost had my eye put out
>by the blowoff tube plug exploding out of the carboy on the most
>recent batch).  The fermentation was done with ale yeast at
>approximately 75 degrees.  I have tried re-aerating (sp) the partially
>fermeneted beer, but it doesn't make any difference.
>
>I bottled the previous batch after letting it sit around doing nothing
>for a week and it came out tasting great, with a reasonably high
>alchohal content.

OK, what kind of S.G. readings are you getting?  That is key to the 
situation.  You could be seeing the exact same fermentation as with a lower 
gravity ale, with your yeast pooping out early.  Or you could have an ideal 
situation with well-oxygenated wort and lively yeast.

But, without the S.G. info, it is difficult to assess what actually happened.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo@mitre.org
From: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Yes, Virginia, It Will Clear! (Wyeast 1007)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:52:54 EDT
Organization: 5 Sigma Software
Reply-To: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v5


My buddy and I started a brew in April or May that was variously named
"Grinnin' Beer" and "Grin 'n Beer It."  'Twas a hefty all-malt grain
brew of OG 1.072 or thereabouts, pitched with Wyeast 1007, bottled
in June.

When we cracked the first bottle a couple of months later, the stuff
was still cloudy.  It tasted vaguely beerlike, but also perhaps like
carbonated chicken broth.  Undrinkable, basically.

As time has progressed, however, Grinnin' Beer has cleared considerably.
It is now "clear" though not brilliant.  I just opened a bottle, the
first since September or thereabouts.

It is yum-my.

A potent, clean extremely fruity nose accompanies a lovely malty,
thick, alcoholic body.  It is the old ale to end old ales.  (Perhaps
a bit of hyperbole.  Perhaps.)  It's not so cloying that it couldn't
be downed in a session, but, verily, it has weight.  And curiously,
lightness.

Just a thought for those of you out there who don't want to give your
beer a couple of months to itself.

:-)

=======================================================================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe@uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1992 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.
From: gorski@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu (Tom Gorski)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Can of malt with bulging ends safe to use?
Date: 10 Dec 92 17:05:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: pslu1.1992Dec10.170503.5748
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, University of Wisconsin

In article <dcox-101292115034@dcoxmac.nswc.navy.mil> dcox@relay.nswc.navy.mil (David Cox) writes:
>I have a can of Mountmellick (sp?) malt mailed to me about 6 months
>ago. The ends of the can have bulged out slightly, popping off the 
>plastic lid that was on top. Is this malt still safe to use? Isn't this a
>sign of botulism? 

Oh God, no..no...noooooooooooooo...arrghh!

The bulging can of malt extract rears its head yet AGAIN!  :-)

Doesn't this question come up at least once a month?  Sounds like a
perfect (and necessary!) addition to the FAQ file!

Answer #1:

Probably isn't botulism, as the extract pH is too low.  In any case,
you're going to subject it to a hot break (boil) anyways, thereby 
destroying any botulism toxins that may be in there.

Worst that can happen is that your beer isn't as flavorful as it
otherwise might be.

Answer #2:

Take this as a sign from the Universe to switch to all-grain brewing.
It's significantly cheaper per batch in money, and only a bit more expensive
in time, with the right equipment.  For the money spent on ingredients for a
couple of extract batches, the additional equipment for all-grain brewing can
be purchased and/or made at home.  You get better beer in the bargain, too!

--Tom G.
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Compuserve
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean  VA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:26:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.130120.25332@news.columbia.edu>
 pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:

>Guess what, in the real world, nodody's heard of Usenet, Internet or 
>newsgroups. Compuserve is everywhere, provides excellent service from
>your home, be it with an Apple or a NeXt, an 8080 or a 486. Anyone can
>access the libraries, that contain a wealth of files (how many of you
>have a TCP/IP connection at home?).

On the other hand, if you have a modem and a local BBS, you can have access 
to Usenet newsgroups or Fidonet newsgroups related to brewing.

On my Fidonet BBS, I carry the Fidonet ZYMURGY conference, as well as rec.
crafts.brewing.  If I were anywhere near Boulder, I would set up a Fidonet 
node in the AHA offices for them.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo@mitre.org
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Using bleach to sanitize
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean  VA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:23:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.184156.21922@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>
 pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:

>The risk of bleach/water is that the rinse water might be infected.  I 
>always bleach followed by soaking in water with food-additive grade 
>sanitizing tablets such as can be purchased in restaurant supply houses.

Yow!!!!!!

Please, folks, there is *no* need to rinse after using bleach, unless you 
use too much of it.  Air-drying for ten or fifteen minutes should do the 
trick completely.

Finally, if you need to rinse, find some of that cheap beer some "friend" 
has brought to your house and use a can or bottle of that to rinse your 
fermenter.  Not only is it sanitized, if not sterile, but it will also 
absorb the stuff that real beer will.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo@mitre.org
From: spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: thanks alot
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:45:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: network.1gqse1INNm5b
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Calif., San Diego/Microscopy and Imaging Resource
NNTP-Posting-Host: szechuan.ucsd.edu

In article <ofAAJ8W00gt2Rlrkcu@cs.cmu.edu> Sean.Smith@cs.cmu.edu writes:
>YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT!!!!

Wait till your Father gets home!!!!!

							spl
-- 
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- spl@szechuan.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
Where is the summer, the unimaginable
Zero summer?                 - T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"
From: jharres@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Dry hopping and siphoning
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:17:24 GMT


  In my current batch I tried dry hopping in the secondary.  I am please with 
the improved results but I had troubles not siphoning the hops flakes into
the bottles.  How do you bottle after dry hopping and not put hops in the
bottles?  (Yes, I was careful and did not disturb the sediment on the bottom
as I racked it into the bucket with the priming sugar.)

Thanks,
Jim           jharres@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: dab@donner.cc.bellcore.com (ballard,david a)
Subject: Re: Best Brewing Tunes?
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 16:53:44 GMT

In article <01050166.lj1bnd@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us> joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us writes:
> >
> >So, does anyone out there have a favored musical brewing accompaniment?
> >



it depends on what type of beer i'm brewing.  if i do a nice mellow 
pale ale or something, i listen to the dead, preferably something 
from '77 that has that nice, slow, funky feel to it (5/7/77 boston
and 5/8/77 cornell are favorites).  for something that's going to 
be hopped real aggressively it's usually pearl jam or mother love
bone or something.  stouts and porters get eric clapton or stevie ray
vaughn.  i forgot what i put on when i did a wheat beer during 
thanksgiving; i think it was guns n' roses....


dab


=========================================================================
dave ballard	
dab@cc.bellcore.com 
=========================================================================


Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: wolo@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Greg Wolodkin)
Subject: Copper ions in wort
Followup-To: rec.crafts.brewing
Summary: having a homebrew ;-)
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:08:56 GMT

  After thinking about the gleaming de-oxidized wort chiller, I did
a back-of-the-envelope calculation and it seems to me that I have
no real need to worry.. Let's say I have 40' of copper tubing, 1/2" 
outside diameter.  That works out to be about 0.5 square meters of
surface area.

  I've taken the atomic radius of a copper atom to be ~1.2 angstroms,
and (naively) assumed that one atom takes up about 5.8 square angst.
That's 5.8e-20 square meters per atom, so there's about 8.6e+18
atoms exposed on the surface of the chiller.  

  If this whole surface layer is oxidized and then removed into the
acidic wort, what happens?  The 8.6e+18 atoms weigh in at ~0.9mg, 
amidst 5 gallons (19l) of wort.  If the FAQ is right, this results 
in an increase of less than 0.05ppm copper, orders of magnitude less 
than what would be toxic to yeast.  Certainly the less copper the 
better, but this number seems reassuringly small.

  Unless, of course, I screwed up somewhere ;-)  Comments, corrections,
and insight welcome -- a chemist I am not.  And now, back to your
regularly scheduled programming...

Greg
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: stewarte@sco.COM (nothing a bullet in the belly couldn't cure)
Subject: Re: Gleaming immersion chiller
Organization: Captain Napalm's Thermonuclear League of Liberty
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:43:58 GMT
Keywords: should I worry? ;-)


For what it's worth, I sanitized my wort chiller by soaking it in
bleach in my plastic starter bucket; this also seemed to "clean"
the copper tubing.  Perhaps this is an alternative to sanitizing it
by putting it into the wort at the end of the boil.

-- Stewart
-- 
"A cold noodle is like a dog without fur...recognizable, 
 but very unpleasant."
				-- Gever Tully (gever@xaos.com)
/*  uunet!sco!stewarte  -or-  stewarte@sco.COM  -or-  Stewart Evans  */
From: adam@wb9rxw.lonestar.org (Adam Adkins)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Hitting Final Gravities???
Date: 12 Dec 92 18:51:32 GMT
Organization: American Airlines - Comm Engineering

In article <david_ingham-081292155344@lazarow2.life.uiuc.edu> david_ingham@qms1.life.uiuc.edu (David Ingham) writes:
>After all visible fermentation has been gone for several days i have gone
>to bottle my beer and found the specific gravity much higher than expected.
> I don't know why its so high.  possibilities:
>
>1>  Not a good strainer, so lots of sediment
>
>2>  fermentation not complete.
>
>3>  Something to do with using hop pellets instead of leaf hops
>
>By the way, these beers were done with either 100% DME and Malts or 50/50
>DME/Malts and extract.  Any suggestions would ease my conscience.  Thanx!!

     My personal experience with extracts has been that they always quit
fermenting before you think they should.  That was a great part of the 
reason I went to all-grain beers after only 3 batches with extract.  If 
you can go to all-grain, it will cost you less, too.  But, if you want
to continue using extracts, make sure you use an attenuative yeast, and
if it still quits with a high S.G., try a little yeast nutrient.
     There was a post a couple of months ago, somebody used something to make 
the yeast takeoff again.  Maybe someone out there remembers...


Adam

-- 
Adam Adkins     	"Literature is the orchestration of platitudes."
                        Thornton Wilder
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: Compuserve
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:26:55 GMT

In article <jdecarlo.505.724703199@mitre.org> jdecarlo@mitre.org (John DeCarlo) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.130120.25332@news.columbia.edu>
> pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>
>>Guess what, in the real world, nodody's heard of Usenet, Internet or 
>>newsgroups. Compuserve is everywhere, provides excellent service from
>>your home, be it with an Apple or a NeXt, an 8080 or a 486. Anyone can
>>access the libraries, that contain a wealth of files (how many of you
>>have a TCP/IP connection at home?).
>
>On the other hand, if you have a modem and a local BBS, you can have access 
>to Usenet newsgroups or Fidonet newsgroups related to brewing.
>
>On my Fidonet BBS, I carry the Fidonet ZYMURGY conference, as well as rec.
>crafts.brewing.  If I were anywhere near Boulder, I would set up a Fidonet 
>node in the AHA offices for them.
>

My point is that all these discussions are moot in this environment, since we
all by definition do have access to the net. What is needed, and what I
haven't seen, is a clear and simple list of methods available to John Q.
Public who has an Apple II or a PC clone and a modem.

What?
Where?
How?
How much?

And get it out in the open. Write an article for Zymurgy, write an
article in the H.B.D.

Pierre.


Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing