From: aj@hoqas2.att.com (Ahmad M Jrad)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Paul, Could he be wrong?
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:06:20 GMT
Organization: AT&T

> = In article <Aug.10.00.39.49.1992.5874@dartagnan.rutgers.edu>

> 5:17  Do not think that I am come to abolish the law, and the prophets:
> I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfil them.
> Jesus did not specify the Jews here. He said "anyone who teaches others"
> that would seem to include non-jews also.
> 
> [I think not.  The Law of Moses were part of a covenant between God
> and the Jews.  Jews now and many Jews in the 1st Cent. do not expect
> the whole world to become Jewish and accept the Laws of Moses.
> Jesus did not deal explicitly with the question of non-Jews, so we
> can't tell exactly what theoretical approach he would take.  However

Jesus refused to even heal the sick gentiles and referred to them
as dogs. He also stated outright that he was sent only to the
Jews. This would imply that in order to follow him, you would
need to become a Jew. Otherwise, as a gentile you are following a
message which was not sent to you. Thus you would need to follow
the law. (in Matthew)

15:26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it to dogs.

> there's no reason to think he would expect non-Jews to convert to
> Judaism or to accept the Law of Moses.  I can recall two cases where

He was sent only to the Jews, is that not a good reason.

> he dealt with non-Jews: the Centurion and the woman at the well.  The
> Centurion (Luke 7) seems to have been an example of what the Jews
> called a "God-fearer".

This is quite different from the attitude of Jesus in Matthew towards the
gentiles. See (Mat. 15:22, and 10:5).
 
> Neither Jesus nor Paul wanted to abolish the Law.  They both
> considered it a holy thing.  But neither expected Gentiles to obey it.
> Are you seriously suggesting that
> Christians should obey all the kosher laws, or are you simply trying
> to discredit Jesus or Paul?

I am certainly not trying to discredit Jesus in any way, nothing could
be farther from my mind. I was merely trying to understand why Christians
don not follow the law in light of the quote from Matthew. I think that
I understand that now. I thank you for helping me there. I am still 
inclined to thinking that the quote from Matthew applies to all of Jesus'
followers, since there is no mention of Jews or Israel in it at all.

> --clh]

God Bless,
Ahmad

[Jesus didn't exactly call the woman a dog, though I admit his initial
language didn't seem very friendly.  However I note that he *did* heal
her daughter, contrary to what you say.  (I assume you're referring to
Mat 15:22 ff.)  I do not know of any case where Jesus really refused
to heal someone, Jew or Gentile.  It's normally thought that he was
simply testing her resolve.  The fact that Jesus said his mission was
to the Jews, and send the twelve on their training mission to Jews
(10:5) doesn't mean that he would have been opposed to extending it to
Gentiles later.  Note that the story of the Centurion is also in Mat
(8:5 ff), contrary to the impression you seem to have.  Jesus praises
the Centurion's faith there just as well as in Luke.  Indeed 8:11-12
seems quite explicit about inclusion of Gentiles, more so than the
version in Luke.  I could have made my case from Mat rather than Luk.
I simply tend to cite Luke when passages appear in both.

--clh]