From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: A Strand of Bigotry
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 00:06:25 GMT


In article <1992Nov13.175017.12469@oracle.us.oracle.com>
elawrence@<something>.wright.edu (Edgar Lawrence) writes:

Daniel Gilly posts for Edgar:

>[Note: A reader of soc.motss, who does not have the ability
> to post, has asked me to post this for him.  When following
> up, please change the attributions.]

Btw, Edgar, since you have a working email connection, have
you tried posting by using an email reflector?  (Others: is
the Berkeley one still in operation?  Didn't I see a posting
here that came through decwrl.com just the other day?)

>----------------------------------------------------------

I would have said an ocean of bigotry, rather than a strand.
:-)

>For far too long, people on this group having been taking
>this Gary Strand character more seriously than he deserves.
>He has repeatedly claimed that he has the right to practice
>bigotry.  He calls it "discrimination," but it should be
>obvious to everyone that he is a particularly vicious bigot
>who uses half-baked Libertarian rhetoric to rationalize his
>bigotry.

I certainly agree with you, based on the small sampling of
his articles that I saw before my patience was exhausted.
He's really quite horrible.  But rather than waste more ink
on him, ignorant and ignorable as he is, let's get down to
your righteous indignation, which in part I share and which
in part I disagree with.

Part of the problem, and I suspect you'll agree with this,
is that lots of liberals are so liberal their brains fall
out, more or less.  Ever anxious not to be seen as
themselves contributing to oppression, they put up with all
manner of idiots like this Strand character.

The general drift of your note, as I read it, is to assert
vigorously that there is something called hate speech and
this hate speech should not enjoy the protections of the 1st
Amendment.  I know that isn't quite what you said, but for
the purposes of discussion, give me a little leeway here.

>THERE IS NO RIGHT TO PRACTICE BIGOTRY. 

I certainly would like to agree with this, but apart from
the remedy you propose of using physical force, I can't
think of a way to make it stick that doesn't itself abrogate
the right of free expression.  Maybe you have in mind a
distinction between the expression and the practice of
bigotry, in which case our case may be strengthened.

>That self-evident truth should not need to be stated, but it
>seems that circumstances require that it be stated.

It's inconvenient, most of the time, but I think it's
probably fortunate that we can't establish ethical and legal
principles merely by stating them.

In saying this, by no means am I defending Strand, you
understand.  As I mentioned, I did not read all of his
blather.

>Strand's "arguments" are clearly morally and intellectually
>bankrupt.  He himself is clearly devoid of honor or decency.
>In one of his more loathsome postings he claimed "Yelling
>'faggot' at someone shouldn't land me in jail, nor should
>refusing to hire a gay for a job I have." How much more
>proof of his malice is needed?  Strand arrogates to himself
>non-existent rights.  He actively seeks to excercise his
>malice at the expense of innocent people.  Yelling "faggot"
>might not be grounds for being thrown in jail, but it IS a
>"fighting word." By all rights, yelling "faggot" at someone
>should, if possible, result in immediate physical
>retaliation.

I wouldn't say that yelling "faggot" and refusing to hire
LGB people are exactly comparable actions.  Both are
bigoted, that I would say.  But I would prefer to protect
the speech (not doing so brings on *lots* of other problems,
ones that I think are likely very injurious to liberty)
while not allowing any *practice* of bigotry of public
consequence.

Let me try to refine this a little in terms of your
arguments.

>I am no pacifist.  I have the right to defend myself by any
>means necessary, and I will not hesitate to exercise that
>right.  I do not delude myself that yelling "faggot" at me is
>any sort of legitimate "free speech." It is a calculated
>attempt to deny my humanity and my right to exist.  I, for
>one, will respond as I see fit, if at all possible.  In the
>meantime, this Strand character should be told in no
>uncertain terms, by as many people here as possible that his
>verbal vomit serves no legitimate purpose whatsoever, anad
>that he should immediately take himself to talk.bigots or
>the equivalent.

I understand what you say about wanting to smash such a
person a good one.  I feel that quite a lot, a strong desire
to hit and to hurt the real assholes of this earth
physically.  But can we really afford to reduce ourselves to
condoning assault?  Doesn't that just move the problem into
having force *in place of* ethics?  

In a practical sense, I might not do too well at being
nonviolent (I was raised in a pretty violent atmosphere),
and as I mention there is a certina emotional appeal to the
idea of visiting mayhem on one's enemies, but the examples
of Gandhi and King have also had a major influence on me,
moderating this violent streak.

It seems to me we can probably find ourselves closer
together on this assault issue than on the hate speech
issue.  I certainly agree --as lots of people don't -- that
hate speech *does* cause real injury, so somehow it should
be possible to have a legal sanction that does not
compromise freedom of expression.  At my university, a
number of attempts to find effective anti-hate-speech
sanctions have essentially not worked, having been found
unconstitutional.

So far, there don't seem to be workable answers, so we're
left about where you say you are on the issues: a fierce
determination not to countenance bigotry, and being willing
to back that up with fists, if it comes to that.

But I continue to hope that a a better solution can be
developed.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
<>  <>  <> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <>  <>  <>