From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: A Tantric Parable
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:52:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.47222
Distribution: world
Organization: ----

9212.13 e.v.


Bill Kish quotes Vivekananda and writes:

[Much omitted]

"What did the Lord say about me ?"  Narada replied, "Oh yes.
Do you see this tamarind tree ?  I have to tell you that you shall be
born as many times as there are leaves on that tree, and then you
shall attain freedom."  The man began to dance for joy and said, "Ah,
I shall have freedom after such a short time !"  A voice came [and
said], "My child, you will have freedom this minute."


..Is it just
me, or does V. seem to gloss over some of the more interesting
conclusions that can be drawn here ?  In particular, V claims that
liberation was a reward for his perseverance, when it seems to me that
the wild-man has "attained" liberation "this very minute" strictly by
virtue of his attitude.  His joy, gratitude, and patience brought him
to realization long before the many potential lifetimes of effort in
what is obstensibly his practice.



Response:

This is why I think that Vivekananda is a beginner's text; that he
speaks to one on the ascetic path and/or who has yet to find a 'Middle Way'
between the extremes of asceticism and euphoricism.


Bill:

Which of course leads us to his actual practice, his wild
singing, dancing and gesturing.  Is this to be taken literally?  It
would seem to imply that if I go out clubbing *every* night (wouldn't
want to miss a day of practice, now would I :) and couple this with
joy and wonder over the fact that on a magic day lightyears away I
will awaken, then I will actually become awake NOW.  


Response:

This that you describe here is the practice of euphoricism;
indulgence, diving into worldly experience (see _Siddhartha_)
and becoming aware WITHIN it.  Such practice as you describe would
not lead to liberation if 1) the aspirant had not tasted asceticism
and 2) she did not diligently indulge with an intent to maximize
hir awareness of the experience.


Bill:

Another
possibility is that the wild-man is supposed to refer to some other
"path", one which V.  views as inferior to the one he is explicating.
But either way, it would seem that the most obvious reading of this
parable is that the actual practice doesn't matter at all, but rather
a shift in attitude which  V. seems to ignore.


Response:

This is my understanding of what constitutes Tantra.  Vivekananda and other
yogis/ascetics do not acknowledge the euphoric path because they have no
experience with it or because they feel it is more important to emphasize
the ascetic path (which is of course a valuable way) to those who are
living in the world.

A yogi and I were discussing this yesterday.  Attitude and intent is what
leads one to liberation, not the specifics of the practice.  Yes, certain
types of practice will lead to freedom for some faster than others, but
none of them work for all, since their form is like a subtle trigger which
needs a certain intent or attitude to pull it and a certain psychospiritual
condition to be liberated by its triggering.



Bill:

Maybe Shunryu Suzuki can help us here.  On page 128-129 of
ZM,BM, we have:

"So to have faith in the original emptiness of mind is the
most important thing in your practice.

"Dogen-zenji said, "You should establish your practice in 
your delusion."  Even though you think you are in delusion,
your pure mind is there.  To realize pure mind in your 
delusion is practice.

"So you should establish your practice in delusion.  To have
delusion is practice.  This is to attain enlightenment
before you realize it."


Response:

This is what I attempt to imply by my posts on 'The Path of the Laze'
and what I think is meant by 'The word of Sin is Restriction'.  
Self-restriction may be very necessary in delusion, but 
when we can finally find the place where restriction is not necessary
then we shall know we have released our delusion.


Bill:

Page 112:

"If you seek for freedom, you cannot find it.  Absolute
freedom itself is necessary before you can acquire absolute
freedom."


Response:

My Abyss said that this is much like credit.  One cannot obtain credit
without a credit history.  One cannot begin a credit history without
obtaining credit.  The dilemma may only be resolved through 
compassion, I think.  In the case of credit the credit company must
see that its interests are secure.  In the case of freedom, one must
see this about oneself.


Bill:

And on page 111:

"There is no way set up for us.  Moment after moment we
have to find our own way."


Response:

This is true because we are a unique universal person/event which
requires a particular 'combination' to release.  Pursuing a way which
is set up may be beneficial for us, and we may progress very far
within such structures, but eventually that 'yoke' we put on will
stand in the way of our liberation until we toss it off (whether or
not we take it up again later).



Bill:

I think no matter what your perspective, it's an interesting parable,
tasty "worm-food" to borrow a phrase from Lorenzo.

Roger ?  Raj ? Others ??  Why should we wait 4 lifetimes for
enlightenment when we can have it NOW ???  And why does seem to be
necessary to have so much patience that we have effectively foregone
enlightenment (at least for ourselves :) in order to wake up this very
minute?


Response:

It is very important to emphasize that there are no other lifetimes; that
all enlightenment occurs now and that time itself is delusion.  I am not
saying that these things are true, just that they are liberating ideas
for many who are stuck upon the path of self-restriction.  

Heinlein writes 'waiting is' and I see his point, I think.  If one can
see no difference between waiting for a goal and obtaining it, then one
has achieved Nirvana.  This is also what is meant by 'the tao is your
everyday mind'.  Once we can release our need to change ourselves in
order to feel at peace then we can settle into peacefulness immediately.

As my namesake, Nagarjuna, seems to have said, 'there is no difference
between Nirvana and Samsara'.  I think that he was commenting on a very
deep truth.  We are trained to distinguish between things in order to
live in society.  In order to liberate ourselves we must somehow release
this training, perhaps employing it from time to time if it becomes
necessary.  

The way to release this training is different for each of us.  Some must
push ourselves through rigorous and difficult practice.  Some of us must
crash and burn in indulgence.  Some must find our way to elements of
both.  In the end it is we who convince ourselves that it is time to
release our hold on life and our images.
 

Thyagi