HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Laurie Mann
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Possibly Relevent Insight, and Comments on Pat Buchanan's Speech
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:56:45 GMT
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

I've gotten back into severely busy mode again, "rescuing" one
at-work project and one not-at-work project.  Projects are
often easy, they are often definable, and while they can
require huge amounts of work, you can see short-term results
with projects.

I remember reading last year that some abuse-survivors 
are perfectionists and others tend to be "savior" types.
When I feel high-functioning, I fall into the latter
category.  And it suddenly occured to me why:

Because completing projects can make one feel oh-so-successful.
And they are a whole lot more ego-gratifying than the
repetative failures in the social arena.

In thinking about the Relkie/Prisoner thing, the idea of
treating people AS PROJECTS reared its ugly head for me.
Relkie had many problems, and when Prisoner went into
"rescue" mode, he treated her as a project.

Once he started treating her "as a person," sex entered
into things in a highly inappropriate manner.  I do believe
Relkie was raped, and I do believe Prisoner abused her
and I believe Prisoner is in no position to be whining about
it.  (BTW, Bill, I'll be in Orlando next month
too and I know who to look for...(an aside, this should
not be construed as a threat, just that I'm keeping half
an eye out for you, and if I see you hitting on anyone,
I'm going to say something.))

To go from local politics to national politics, did Pat
Buchanan turn anyone else's stomach with his condemntaion
of children suing parents?  While this may be an act of
spite in a few cases, I think most legal action by children
against their parents have their roots in abuse.  And for
the Republicans to cheer this condemnation is a sick act
indeed.

*  NeXT: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com * GEnie:  Laurie.Mann  *
**** Vote to can George and Dan! **  Vote for CHANGE in 1992!****
**********    Member of the cultural elite and PROUD!  **********
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: a message from solitary
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:28:22 GMT

In article <5w9m+fq.enigma@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
(about Prisoner)
>But 
>think about it: you admit you had sex with Relkie.  What do the details
>matter?  You're around 40, she's 16.
                        ^^        ^^

Like everyone else, I'll never know what happened...

But at best you exercised EXTREMELY poor judgement.  Possibly criminally
poor.

I'm not kidding.  A prosecutor would have a hard time convincing me to
find someone guilty of 'date rape' without a lot of physical evidence,
unless I saw something like this.  A 16-year-old in an abusive environment
can't be expected to know better -- that's the entire point of 'age-of-
consent' laws.

A 40-year-old man, on the other hand, should have anticipated problems
and kept arms-length.  There is no way you could _not_ be perceived as
a father figure and you should have known to steer clear of her sexually.

Despite any abuse you may have suffered, you have to learn to accept
responsibility for your own actions.  I really don't care if you have
to learn that responsibility in prison....


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: The Anonymous Service: This Waiter Has A Fake Accent
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:25:10 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug18.061620.7320@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, 
sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:
> you seem to be the only one having such a problem
> sally

If you believe that, then you are clearly ignoring your effect on Relkie.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Wondering About Direction
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:56:56 GMT
Reply-To: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov
Organization: Unisys/EPA

I have some comments to make about the interaction between Relkie
and Prisoner.

I would like to ask both of you to consider the question "What is it that
I want out of our interaction?"  Another question that is similar:
"What is it that I want to change in me/for me as a result of working on
this issue?"  or "How would I like to be different?"  

I'm not asking you to post your answers -- I'm inviting you to ponder
the questions and write your own answers down.  Then see if what you
are doing or thinking about doing in this situation is moving you in
that direction or away from it.

I see a lot of airing of concern, pain, anger, and perhaps some 
confusion.    I'm certainly feeling some of these myself.

I'm wondering what aspects of this are best kept in the open,
public forum of this newsgroup and which issues are best  dealt
with privately ?

I'm not sure what value there is in publicly criticizing anyone in 
this chain of events.  My past is full of spending day in and day out
always busy making sure that I placed blame wherever it belonged.
This kept me so busy that I didn't connect with my feelings of 
vulnerability(which I am STILL learning to be ok with).  I definitely
have a little kid voice in my head that is still yelling out "I SHOULDN'T
HAVE TO FEEL THIS VULNERABLE!!!  Someone else should take care
of it for me!"  I think the truth for me is probably that yes, back then
someone should have helped me with my vulnerability, and guided me
to learn how to live with those feelings; now I am going to learn how
to do that for myself, because I didn't get it from my parents.

I truly do hope that you Relkie and you Prisoner/Bill will each find a positive
direction to focus on as you deal with the pain of recent events.

You are neither one bad people -- I get very upset when I see 
posts that are blaming and accusatory.  I understand that there is
pain, anger and other unpleasant feelings involved.  I also am aware
that there are ways to communicate those with power that makes room
for things to change without the heat of blame being splashed all over.

I do see two human beings who still are learning about areas that each
of you have been seriously damaged around.  Learning to have healthy
boundaries is one of the most important challenges of life when we've been
damaged /repressed so early in life.
--

Bob Boyd
In The Here & Now
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender)
Subject: annonymous posting service
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 03:43:46 GMT


> Anonymous posters: STOP! Think about it. Do you really, really want
> to risk what you're risking?

I find this rather frightening to read in this newsgroup.

Is there another annonymous posting service or is this the only one?

And I do not understand what I am risking?

I need a hug after trying to figure out what the previous poster was saying !!!



--
To use this service, send EMAIL to:
anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
anon-help@twwells.com  -- for a help message
anon-admin@twwells.com -- ANON administrator
anon-0@twwells.com     -- anonymous e-mail to ANON administrator
anon-asar@twwells.com  -- post anonymously to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:55:11 GMT
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <Bt4H04.IE6@twwells.com> anon-1160@twwells.com (poohbear) writes:
>
>I didn't even want to write this.  I am so confused about this relkie thing
>and the anon stuff.  I just wanted to say it has gotten too scary for me here
>and I wish everyone would work to get the atmosphere that was here 3-4 weeks
>ago back, becasue that was a very secure one and was the reason I ever posted
>in the first place.
>
>And for my small triumph:  I have lived through the weekend.  Well, it is
>10:30 Sun night and i will go to sleep soon, so it isn't quite over but I think
>the danger is past.  Thank God it was cloudy here during the full moon,
>even though that doesn't change it it makes it less potent for me.  I lived
>I lived and I didn't go back in the hospital.  Although I am afraid that I
>would have if I had told anyone about my cutting...I went really deep this
>time, and think I probAbly need stitches, but I do not wAnt to tell anyone
>because they will come and take me away.
>
>I will not get all upset in this post.  I am alive and not in a hospital
>after a weekend, and a weekend with a full moon at that.  I couldn't
>not cut myself, but i did not O.D.  and now I am alive and I even drew
>1 happy picture!  Sorry I am starting to leave again, and gosh I have been
>present this whole weekend!  anyway goodbye.  I wish I could hug but I 
>cannot for now.
>
well done pooh bear! living through the type of weekend you have just
had, is no small triumph - it's *huge*!! here's to a whole wall of
happy pictures for you. 
sally
>
>--
>To use this service, send EMAIL to:
>anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
>anon-help@twwells.com  -- for a help message
>anon-admin@twwells.com -- ANON administrator
>anon-0@twwells.com     -- anonymous e-mail to ANON administrator
>anon-asar@twwells.com  -- post anonymously to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: This group. (long babbling reply)
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:53:35 GMT

boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>I guess thats why stern and selfish love turns out the best..  it
>forces the loved one to go through the storm and come out, instead
>of managing to coast around it and letting it grow.  Saying 'yes,
>I love you, but you gotta do what you gotta do.'  Thats also why
>I regard suicide as the ultimate in personal power.  The ability
>to decide if living is worth it, and to decide to stop.

the problem i have with this is that (to continue your analogy) by forcing
someone in a leaky boat to go through the storm, they may sink.  give them a
chance to patch some of the holes, and let them decide when they are ready to
weather the storm.  one cannot know what another is feeling, nor when they are
ready.  

i think the phrase should be "yes, i love you, but you gotta do what you gotta
do *when* *you* *are* *able* to do it."  if you force them into it before they
are ready, they may not be able to do what they gotta, which leaves no good
alternatives.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: what gives ...????
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:29:46 GMT

Lavender (anon-1186@twwells.com) wrote:

: Prisoner wrote : 
: about his relationship with Relkie :
: 
: >  Yes, we had sex. However, her recollection differs somewhat from
: > mine. Also, the way she told of the event left out an awful lot of
: > important things, things that I think make a very big difference in
: > how that event will be viewed. Until I am able to finish writing
: > about it, it is my hope that people will suspend judgement.
: 
: I can hardly believe what I am reading !!!
: 
: And I am supposed to feel confident in using the anon posting service?

This has been my point all along.  It's like hiring the fox to watch the
henhouse, then expecting the hens to ask the fox for advice on what the
hens should do for additional security. :(

A clear conflict of interest.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
From: karen@invincible.bsd.uchicago.edu (& Brilmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: New kid
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:48:22 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

This is my first time posting....

I just found this news group and let me tell you this is sure a nice place  
to be...

I *AM* recovering and suppose I will recover the rest of my life, but  
thanks to an excellant therapist and a spectacular SO, I am really  
starting to live my life (instead of living for others).

About a year ago I thought I should be locked up in a "looney-bin"  
somewhere... it has been a long hard road but has been worth every minute  
of it to get where I am at today.  

So I am basically saying to all...."DON'T GIVE UP, KEEP FIGHTING, YOU WILL  
GET BETTER AND ENJOY LIFE"  I am a perfect example.
From: Laurie Mann
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Abuse Issues---Staying On Guard
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:30:03 GMT
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

I received a brief note from Prisoner to the effect I was
fanning the fire by including a comment about him
in my last post.  

Probably guilty.

I must observe though that I have an adolescent daughter, and
the knowledge that people like Prisoner, who seem to prey on
adolescents, are in fandom concerns me.  The knowledge
that she is going to be in the same convention center with
him makes me a little more than hyper-vigilant.  (In
general, fans stick to going after other adults, not
after troubled adolescents.)

Preying on adolescents should not be
acceptable from "adults."
Chronologically, Bill IS an adult, and that puts him
immediately in an advantage in an interaction with an
adolescent.  But, "emotionally," we've mostly seen that
he's something else.

Staying on guard....

*  NeXT: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com * GEnie:  Laurie.Mann  *
**** Vote to can George and Dan! **  Vote for CHANGE in 1992!****
**********    Member of the cultural elite and PROUD!  **********
From: boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: This group.
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:23:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

I have read these posts by a few who are getting
uncomfortable with the elevated aggression level
and are considering stopping contributing to this
group or stopping reading it.

I have a few thoughts on this, a few I have not heard
expressed in some time.

Firstly, when I am uncomfortable with something, my
first reaction is to hunt it down and find out why
I feel that way.  This was not given to me, I had to
learn how to do this.  And it has helped me to gain
quite a bit of perspective on things.

Also, I am not convinced that uncomfortableness and
the lack of a warm, pleasant, safe environment is a
good thing.  We often take these things as escapes,
and the outside is not like that at all..  vacations
are great, but even babies leave the womb some time.
Getting shaken up may be a good thing.

This may be a good time for some of you to review
what you are doing here.  Why you read and post here
and what you get from it.  If you dont want problems
and conflict, then why are you talking to people?
thats a big part of who they are.  And what do you
think you can learn from here.

Watch Relkie and Prisoner, and learn from them.  Things
are never what they seem at first glance.  Try to avoid
curling up in a corner, away from the conflict.  Just
sit back, take it slow, and listen and learn.


.....jeff
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: The Anonymous Service: This Waiter Has A Fake Accent
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:19:21 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug20.212320.21504@unislc.uucp>, erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) 
writes:
> reason or another (the FBI UCI stats report that there are a significant
> number of women now reporting sexual abuse where none existed, and the numbers
> are increasing).  

Can you provide us with the actual stats?  The last time I looked, the false
rape report rate was euqal to the false report rape for all other violent
crimes.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: Z57N000 <Z57N@UNB.CA>
Subject: Yoooo-de-laaaaay-hee-hooooo.....
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:07:15 GMT

I just wanted to retype something that all of us, including myself,
should be allowing ourselves to say ... from the "Daily Affirmation"
skit with Stuart Smalley....

"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me!
Well, not everybody, but some people do..."

RELKIE

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.Netcom.COM (Enigma)
Subject: Re: annonymous posting service
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 07:21:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service

In article <Bt2512.BCs@twwells.com> anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender) writes:


>> Anonymous posters: STOP! Think about it. Do you really, really want
>> to risk what you're risking?

>I find this rather frightening to read in this newsgroup.

>Is there another annonymous posting service or is this the only one?

>And I do not understand what I am risking?

>I need a hug after trying to figure out what the previous poster was
>saying !!!

Well, here's a hug for you --> HUG!

Relkie's been through a really tough time lately, and some of it
involved the aps-admistrator, Bill Wells.  I don't *think* Bill
meant any harm, but things got way out of control and Relkie is
in a lot of emotional pain over it.  I imagine Bill is too, although
we haven't heard from him at all.  I talked to Relkie quite a bit
on the phone while all this was going on, and I believe she is 
telling the truth.

The risk she reffered to was the possibliity that the same situation
could happen again, with another of the anon-posters.  I have no way
of knowing if this could happen.  John Light voiced some additional
concerns about anonymous posting (or was it e-mail) in general.

As long as you do not get together with anyone on here in person, and
as long as you do not post anything anonymously that you could be in
trouble over if it were revealed, I think you should be okay.  If you
have any doubts or concerns, I suggest e-mailing some of the people on
here about them.  I hope all this doesn't scare you off - asar has done
me (and others) a lot of good.
--
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: RE: a message from solitary
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:36:42 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Bt5rEM.MK@twwells.com>, anon-1016@twwells.com (Prisoner) writes:
> I think that she and I should air this out to the point where
> people have some idea of what happened but I do not think that
> passing public judgements is a good idea. So, if anyone has nasty
> things to say to me, please put them in e-mail. And, if you think
> I'm being confrontational or judgemental, or that I'm "blaming
> the victim" or somesuch, I want to be told about it, but do it in
> e-mail please.
> 
> So, for my first contribution:
> 
> You and I discussed the possibility of sex _before_ I went up
> there. We discussed this to the point where we agreed on my
> bringing up the necessary contraceptives, just in case. I recall
> your saying that if we reached the point where sex was a
> possibility, that I should "let it happen". As far as I know, at
> that time I hadn't done anything that you would have seen as my
> pushing you into sex. Does this agree with your recollections? Is
> there anything important about that discussion that I left out?

I don't know yet if you're "blaming the victim" or whatever, but you are
missing the point.  You placed youself in a position where you were going to be
her foster father.  You made yourself her parent in her eyes.  From the point
at which you did that, sex with her should have been an automatic no, even if
she ripped your clothes off and said "Take me."
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: Z57N000 <Z57N@UNB.CA>
Subject: Aileen Quinn and original sin
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:48:20 GMT

Precise wording escapes me, but the comments went something along the
lines of "it would show that you cared deeply enough about me to drop
that one last barrier."

That's as close as my mind will let me go, prisoner.

************************************************************************
Darella Cassandra Pierson ("RELKIE") -- otherwise known as Aileen Quinn


"So maybe now it's time and maybe when i wake, they'll be there calling
me baby.... ma-a-a-a-a-y--be-e-e-e-....."

ANNIE
************************************************************************
From: erc@khijol.upl.com (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: test message - please ignore
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:33:19 GMT
Reply-To: erc@apple.com

This is a test message - please ignore...
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com, khijol!erc@saturn.upl.com       801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"