HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jbw@bigbird.bu.edu (Joe Wells)
Subject: [DISC] software patents 
Organization: Boston University Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:19:14 GMT


[mod- Crossposting from a discussion in one of the following groups..
comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.solaris]
[Followups to comp.patents.]

In article <1992Aug3.224746.25893@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> steagall@amber.uh.cwru.edu (Bob Steagall) writes:

       Instead of all this socialist ranting and raving, why don't you
   supply us with some facts.

Opposition to software patents has little or nothing to do with socialism.
If you want to classify it, "libertarian" is reasonably accurate.

       1.  What company has patented or attempted to patent an idea?

Every company that has patented or attempted to patent an algorithm.

           I also recall recall that Apple just recently lost in their 
           suit against Microsoft.  The judge ruled that Apple did not have an
           exclusive right to the idea of a GUI.

This was a copyright issue, not a patent issue.  Apple claimed (and
continues to claim) that they could copyright a "look and feel".

       2.  How much "blood money" has been extracted from small comapanies (D)?

This question is confusing.  If by "blood money", you are referring to
patent royalties, then the anwer is a lot.  However, more often the patent
is used to prevent the small company from producing the product at all.

       4.  How many patent officers have you ever met?  By what criteria and by
           what experience do you have the authority to pronounce them all
           incompetent (E)?

The GAO had a good report recently on the problems with the competence of
patent office employees in the area of Computer Science.  (No, I don't
have the citation handy.)

       If you think the world will be a better place by giving away the
   software you write, by all means give it away.

This has nothing to do with the issue of software patents.

   In fact, since you seem to dislike corporations so much, ...

This also has nothing to do with the issue of software patents.

   That way, you could sever any contact with those nasty companies and
   that disgusting (ughhh, shiver,...) profit motive.

Again, this has nothing to do with the issue of software patents.

   You could rejoice in the fact that you've left that awful US legal
   system with all those pesky rights and things.

The complaint is not about the entire U.S.A. legal system, but rather the
part that is granting government-enforced monopolies on the usage of
algorithms.

   But screaming about the issue, calling people names and making
   slanderous accusations is not going to help advance the cause, it just
   wastes net bandwidth.

I agree.  I find it a shame you didn't take your own advice.

-- 
Enjoy,

Joe Wells <jbw@cs.bu.edu>
Member of the League for Programming Freedom --- send e-mail for details

Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: elvis 1.6, Sun Sparc and cursors keys
Keywords: elvis 1.6 cursor key troubles on Sun Sparc
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:49:40 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Kiel, FRG

In <1992Aug18.201352.2155@bmerh85.bnr.ca> sjane@bmers248.bnr.ca (sjs) writes:

>If you run into this problem, you can either get your sysadmin to change back
>to elvis 1.5 or you can alter your .termcap file (ask a guru) to change your
>:ku, :kd, :kr, :kl to be \E[A, \E[B, \E[C, \E[D.  I'm not absolutely positive
>if the latter solution will solve all your problems, because my sysadmin added
>:ks & :ke back into elvis 1.6 for me.

Alternatively you can leave your termcap unchanged but map the generated cursor key
sequences to the appropriate commands in your .exrc file.

sample entry:

map [A k

^    ^   ^
|    |   |
|    |   + into this command
|    + this sequence 
+ map in non insert mode

Use  map!  instead of  map  to define for insert mode.

The appropriate mappings in my .exrc:
map [A k
map [B j
map [C l
map [D h
map! [A ka
map! [B ja
map! [C la
map! [D ha

Greetings,


   Ulrich

Ulrich Hoffmann                   email: uh@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de  
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Kiel        Tel: +49 431 560426 
Preusserstr 1-9, D-2300 Kiel 1, Germany            Fax: +49 431 566143
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: fortony@sonne.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: XVI
Originator: fortony@murphy
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:20:43 GMT

geremia@legolas (Peter P. Geremia) writes:

>Hello,

>	Well in my  quest for an X editor I realized that I do like
>the way vi gives you full access to all functionality through the
>keyboard.  BUT  It would be nice to also have the capability to be
>able to point the mouse at a character and the cursor moves to
>that location.  It would also be nice to have some Emacs functionality
>ie c++ mode...  So...  is there something out there which resembles
>what I want... I have tried to use xemacs, but building it is a 
>pain in the neck, with all the config stuff.. and  using it takes
>some time to learn the commandss... 

>					Thanks..
>					Pete Geremia

>ps.. Thanks for all my help with VI mode in emacs, to all
>that have responeded....

"vile" (VI-Like Emacs), which is a program written from the base
of microemacs, provides almost complete vi compatibility, an
X Window interface with cursor mousing, and multiple vi edit
windows on screen.  In my opinion, it provides everything vi
users have been looking wistfully at emacs for without providing
the lack of modality.  The source is freely available at, I
think, ftp.cayman.com.  There's also a PC version precompiled
at that site (customizable colors, ooh. :))

Felix
-- 
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Felix Sebastian Ortony	fortony@murphy.gis.uiuc.edu
From: tomc@siesoft.co.uk (Tom Crossland)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: PD version of Crisp
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:27:34 GMT
Reply-To: tomc@siesoft.co.uk
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.

markm@ee.ubc.ca (mark milligan) writes:

: I am trying to track down a PD copy of Crisp ( or any other Brief style editor).
: It is no longer at the ftp site listed in the Editors list found in this group.
: 
: If anybody has a copy or knows where I can get one I would apreciate hearing frome you.

I  have  a  copy, but don't know how to get it to you. I don't
think  this  site  accepts ftps yet. Maybe I could tar.Z.uu it
and mail it to you in bits.

--
___ _ __
  ((_))))...
From: neilb@scs.leeds.ac.uk (N Bowers)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: X Editors
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:16:29 GMT
Organization: University of Leeds, England

In article <4737@balrog.ctron.com> geremia@ctron.com writes:
>	I have been scouring the net for a good X based 
>programmers editor that is not VI or EMACS or BRIEF based...

You could try aXe (an X editor), which is available via anon ftp from
export.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.0.12] in /contrib/aXe-3.0.tar.Z

This is a sort of xedit++, with support for multiple buffers, filtering,
online help and plenty of icky things like menus.

Note for those with hair triggers: feel free to insert one smiley at a point
of your choosing.

--
Neil Bowers
neilb@scs.leeds.ac.uk
From: geremia@legolas (Peter P. Geremia)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: X Editors
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:18:18 GMT
Reply-To: geremia@ctron.com
Organization: hello


Hi,

	I have been scouring the net for a good X based 
programmers editor that is not VI or EMACS or BRIEF based...



	any one know of one?????


				Peter Geremia

			
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes)
Subject: Re: Using vi to edit columns (was Re: Why I love VI)
Followup-To: comp.editors
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:38:45 GMT

In article <Bsu0EG.73F@root.co.uk>, gwc@root.co.uk (Geoff Clare) wrote:
> 
> In <riskit-100892113813@47.201.0.36> riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes) writes:
> 
> >  My main objection is that you cannot use vi to edit columns.
> 
> Which is why I wrote some macros to do "block delete and copy". 
> They are available from the worldwide vi archive sites.

    What, or more precisely where, are these worldwide vi archive sites?
Where is the closest one to Ottawa, Canada?
    I would like to try these out, but first why would a block delete and 
copy work? I would expect by the name that you block and copy rows, since 
vi is a stream editor not columns.
  

***********************************
riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes)

No passion on earth, no love or hate
Is equal to the passion 
to change someone else's code
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Keywords: vi, speed, power
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:49:18 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


In article <4#4mt_p.messina@netcom.com> messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk) writes:
|fortony@sonne.cso.uiuc.edu responds to Barbara Vaughan:
|
|>I only type around 130 wpm, but I guarantee that I with vi can outperform
|>anyone using one of those silly mouse or F-key editors as long as they
|>type less than 150 wpm.
|
|I find those "I'm a touch typist and with vi I can type 130 words a
|minute" to be as meanigful as a yesteryear's snow.  Do you *program*
|at 130 words per minute?  Do you write your reports at 130 words per
|minute?  Who the hell cares how fast you can pound the keyboard?  It's
|the ease of use with ergonomic designs that allows users to employ
|their editors at a speed that doesn't slow them down and that doesn't
|force them to spend two years to learn the commands and doesn't force
|them to interrupt their thinking to remember the stupid commands that
|matters.  While I also prefer editors to word processors and don't use
|menus (unless I happen to go completely brain-dead and suddenly forget
|all commands) and despise rodents next to my computer, I find such
|declaration to be amusing at most. 
|
|t.


I type *very* fast when I program. Often I will type similiar things
over and over and over again. Other times I have to to jump to similiar patterms
and change sections with a line and so forth. All this at high speed is very
essential to me.
-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that    | 
   |      |      | distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            |
   | (o)(o)      O         Kenneth Boulding                            | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright)
From: rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:22:38 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

mzraly@ra.cs.umb.edu (Michael S. Zraly) writes:

>rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:
>>	[... deleted ...]

> Centering is easy in vi, just pipe text through a simple awk script,
>e.g.
>    awk 'length>0 {for(x=(72-length)/2;x>0;--x)printf(" "); print}'
>map this if you need to use it frequently.

You don't have to do that. There is a macro that can center the string
(it should be in one of the vi-archive sites). It does some animation
when doing the centering... :-) (sorry I lost it somewhere...)

>    If you must justify *AND* fill, pipe through nroff (and uniq, to
>remove extra blank lines).  Use your favorite macro package.  

I can do that, but I have to use all those (dot) commands.
[Yes, I do use nroff when creating man pages]
I prefer to have a "clean" text.

>(One thing
>I don't like about TeX is its inability to generate ASCII output, but
>that's only a peripheral issue here).

There are several programs that can do that. dvitty (or dvi2tty ?)
is one of them. The output is not pretty but readable.

BTW, there is text editor that does what I want.... CRISP.
I am still trying to convince my boss to buy one :-)


-- budi
-- 
Budi Rahardjo <rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba
From: vds7789@aw2.fsl.ca.boeing.com (Vincent D. Skahan)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:49:12 GMT
Organization: none

>In article <Bt0BJG.HAv@cs.psu.edu> ward@math.psu.edu writes:
>> In an old(er) article, bvaughan@lotka.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan)
>> writes:
>>> I'm always amazed at the fact that the most rapidly evolving field of the
>>> 20th century attracts so many people who adamantly refuse to evolve with
>>> it.


not to get into the religious part of it, but...

well, there reaches a limit in the number of editors that you can 
expect somebody to use.  Let's see, what systems have I been on in
the last year and what editors have I been REQUIRED to use as part
of my job (sys-admin and user)...


	environment	required	also-available
			to use		for use

	VMS		edt		tpu
	All-in-one	wps+
	Apollo		DM_editor	vi,xedit
	Ultrix		vi		xedit
	DOS		grrrrr......	edlin,some PD/shareware stuff
	DOS (home)	qedit		vi,memacs,ved,WordPerfectOffice

Not to fan the flames of the vi_[stinks|is-great] folks or the
alt.religion.emacs folks, but there are only two editors that I've
found that are everywhere and can be used to teach folks one editor
for all operating systems.

	vi-like
	emacs-like	

The issue is support.  I can't pick emacs because it's not supplied
by the vendor, with the same version, on every OS. If you limit the
issue to unix'y OS's, I can't pick anything other than vi since that's
supplied by the vendor everywhere and is the same (love it or not)
everywhere.

When the 'one-true-editor' appears and shows up on all systems from
the vendor, I'll reconsider.
-- 
   ---------   Vince Skahan   -----------   vince@atc.boeing.com   ---------   
I will not pledge allegience to Bart.
Chalkboard in Bart the Daredevil
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: lux@sol.UVic.CA (Michael O'Henly)
Subject: Compiling Elvis 1.4 on Sun
Keywords: Sun Elvis
Organization: University of Victoria
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:16:50 GMT

	I'm running into trouble compiling Elvis 1.4 on a Sun (SunOs
4.1). I'm sure it's a simple problem but I don't know much about C and
would appreciate some advice...

	I've edited the Makefile so that it's compiling for BSD4.3.
Here's the error message:

cc -Dbsd -O -oelvis blk.o cmd1.o cmd2.o curses.o cut.o ex.o input.o
main.o misc.o modify.o move1.o move2.o move3.o move4.o move5.o opts.o
recycle.o redraw.o r egexp.o regsub.o system.o tio.o tmp.o vars.o
vcmd.o vi.o -ltermcap 
ld: Undefined symbol
   _hdr
   _blkinit
   _blkget
   _blkdirty
   _abortdo
   _undo
   _afterdo
   _beforedo
   _blkadd
   _blksync
*** Error code 2
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `elvis'

	By the way, can you tell me where Elvis 1.6 is archived?
(Nothing on Archie).

	Thanks.

	Michael.
--
Michael O'Henly                 
McPherson Library                Internet:  lux@sol.uvic.ca
University of Victoria                      lux@uvvm.uvic.ca
Victoria, B.C., Canada             BITNET:  lux@uvvm



Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: clyde@hitech.com.au (Clyde Smith-Stubbs)
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Organization: HI-TECH Software, Brisbane, QLD, Australia.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:53:23 GMT
Keywords: vi, speed, power

bvaughan@lotka.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan) writes:

>who insisted Waterloo Script was a better word processor than Word Perfect

I don't know what Waterloo Script is, but it couldn't be a *worse* word
processor than WordPerfect! I use vi/troff for producing manuals. When WP V5
came out I decided to use it because of all the nice font support etc. I succeeded,
in that I produced one manual (about 100 pages) with it. But the EFFORT
involved convinced me to go back to vi/troff. I am still looking for a better
system than troff - there must be one, because troff has lots of bad aspects.
I am currently looking at TeX, although the learning curve is steep.

>and that everything (including word processing) should be done on the
>mainframe computer because "decentralization" would lead to duplication of
>effort and lack of portability. 

Decentralization does indeed lead to those things. This means that changed
management techniques are needed. That doesn't mean decentralization is bad,
nor does it mean it is all good.

>I've known people so attached to their editors that they did their program
>editing on the IBM mainframe and downloaded the program to their PCs. 

The solution is to provide that editor on the PC, not force the person to
change to an editor that will be, for him, less productive.

>Guess where all these people are now?  The average computer professional
>has seven fat years, then seven lean years, then six months of outplacement.

>So stick with old-fashioned paper, Tom.  Be the world's greatest typist. 

Why not? Vi WORKS! It is not the easiest editor to learn, but I have yet to
find another editor that offered the prospect of the same productivity FOR ME.
It is also available on a variey of platforms. MKS vi on DOS is close enough to
Unix Vi that I have no trouble switching from one to another.

However, Vi does badly need some extra features, like multiple edit files.



--
 Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 300 5011
 clyde@hitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 300 5246
 ...!nwnexus!hitech!clyde | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   | BBS:   +61 7 300 5235
 HI-TECH Software: C Compilers for all manner of machines
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: sridhar@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman)
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:53:04 GMT

rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

)mzraly@ra.cs.umb.edu (Michael S. Zraly) writes:
)
)>    If you must justify *AND* fill, pipe through nroff (and uniq, to
)>remove extra blank lines).  Use your favorite macro package.  
)
)I can do that, but I have to use all those (dot) commands.
)[Yes, I do use nroff when creating man pages]
)I prefer to have a "clean" text.

If you prefer, there is 'fill' in the comp.sources.misc archives (Volume 04). 
It is a small program in C which does justification and centering. 

ftp.uu.net		/usenet/comp.sources.misc/volume4/fill.Z
gatekeeper.dec.com	/.0/comp.sources.misc/volume4/fill.Z
irisa.irisa.fr		/News/comp.sources.misc/volume4/fill.Z
lth.se			/archive2/netnews/sources.misc/volume4/fill.Z
relay.iunet.it		/disk0/comp.sources/misc/Volume4/fill.Z
src.doc.ic.ac.uk	/usenet/comp.sources.misc/volume4/fill.Z
wuarchive.wustl.edu	/usenet/comp.sources.misc/volume04/fill.Z

)--	budi

Sridhar.
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: lux@sol.UVic.CA (Michael O'Henly)
Subject: SUMMARY: Compiling Elvis 1.4 on Sun
Summary: How to compile Elvis under SunOs
Keywords: Elvis Sun
Organization: University of Victoria
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:20:25 GMT

	The latest version of Elvis that Archie knows about is 1.4.
When I tried compiling this under SunOs, I got some linker errors that
I didn't know how to fix.

>cc -Dbsd -O -oelvis blk.o cmd1.o cmd2.o curses.o cut.o ex.o input.o
>main.o misc.o modify.o move1.o move2.o move3.o move4.o move5.o opts.o
>recycle.o redraw.o r egexp.o regsub.o system.o tio.o tmp.o vars.o
>vcmd.o vi.o -ltermcap 
>ld: Undefined symbol
>   _hdr
>   _blkinit
>   _blkget
>   _blkdirty
>   _abortdo
>   _undo
>   _afterdo
>   _beforedo
>   _blkadd
>   _blksync
>*** Error code 2
>make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `elvis'

-----
Chet Creider (creider@taptet.sscl.uwo.ca) said...

> If you check the functions that the linker says are missing, you will
> see that they are all from blk.c, which is therefore not being
> compiled.  The problem is a well-known one with Sun's make. A simple
> solution is to edit the makefile so that some other file which is
> already compiled precedes blk.o in the list of object files. This will
> force blk.c to be compiled. You will then end up with an executable
> with the name of the file which comes first after -oelvis if I
> remember correctly.

> Steve Kirkendall has an elegant solution in the Makefiles to 1.5 and
> 1.6. Version 1.6 is available at m2xenix.psg.com in pub/elvis (this is
> the site with the most current version always). It has also been
> uploaded to Simtel, most conveniently accessed as oak.oakland.edu in
> pub/msdos/editor -- elv16src.zip and elv16exe.zip (I would suggest
> getting the executable as well as it may have documentation files).
> You can use unzip -am to decompress the files on your Sun. The m2xenix
> site is a sharfile. prep.ai.mit.edu in pub/gnu also normally has a
> version of elvis. It may still be 1.5, however.

> Version 1.7 is about to come out, so you might want to either do my
> quick and dirty suggestion or get the 1.6 and just look at the
> Makefile and adapt it to 1.4. The major changes from 1.4 to 1.6 that I
> remember are (1) a ruler option which gives columns, (2) an
> implementation of elvrec and elvprsv which really works.

-----
Bill Mitchell (mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com) said...

> Try adding the -dryrun option to that command line and observing the
> results.  They try it with "-o elvis" instead of "-oelvis".

-----
	I downloaded Elvis 1.6 from m2xenix.psg.com ~/pub/elvis and it
does indeed compile without problems. Thanks a lot for the help!

	Michael.
--
Michael O'Henly                 
McPherson Library                Internet:  lux@sol.uvic.ca
University of Victoria                      lux@uvvm.uvic.ca
Victoria, B.C., Canada             BITNET:  lux@uvvm
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Subject: Re: Why I love VI
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 16:58:44 GMT
Organization: Messina Software
Keywords: vi, speed, power


Mr. fortony@sonne.cso.uiuc.edu writes:

> I believe that editors-like-vi (including emacs) are way, way better
> designed than editors-including-mice-hotkeys-and-pull-down-pretty
> -colorful-menus.  They're not as glamorous.  But if your job and/or
> life goal includes pushing text around as a coder or as a writer,
> doesn't it make sense to just deal with the so called "ease of use
> problem" and use the editor with the most raw power?

I don't understand why you believe that one with menus or mice cannot
have any power.  What was the last time you used QEdit?  What was the
last time you used Brief?  Menus XOR power?  I don't think so. It
reminds me of "little Joey, when you grow up, would you rather be poor
and good, or rich and vile?".  What has one to do with the other? You
may use the menus if you wish, but noone forces you to.  QEdit has
both menus (limited, but functional) and "regular" interface, ctrl-,
alt- keys, macros, and so, fits into 45Kb, and is faster than any
editor you've seen.  Brief will knock your socks off with its macro
language, but you wouldn't buy it because it also has mouse support?

> How long do you intend to be a novice that requires mice/menus/
> F-keys?  If you're a serious programmer/writer, you can learn enough
> vi to be capable in five (5) minutes and enough to be great in 5 (five)
> days.

You will longer be a novice with vi than with QEdit or Brief *because*
of their friendlier interface.  You will be able to pick up more
complicated stuff quicker if you can "cheat" from time to time and
lookup a command or a macro or use a menu.
BTW, if you can learn enough in 5 minutes to be happy with vi, why not
just stay with cat >  ?

> If it takes you longer than that, then you might well be in the
> wrong field.  vi is not really great for computer illiterates.  Fine.
> This, we have established.

All we have established from this is that you're very arrogant.


t.
From: jakkanen@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jukka Akkanen)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: vi dumps core (SunOS)
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:37:47 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

Today I discovered a mysterious bug in vi on both SunOS 4.1.1 and
4.1.2.  Marking a position in a file with letter d, moving below the
marked line, and performing c'd causes segmentation violation.

Funny enough, by using any other letter than d for the mark, or `d
instead of 'd as the cursor movement command, things work the way
they're supposed to.

Any comments?

-J.Akkanen