HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se (John Dryselius TG/HB)
Subject: European language?
Reply-To: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:46:11 GMT

In nordunet.talk.skandinaviska Marcus Lindroos wrote an article about the nine official languages of EC. His point was if we should demand a "scandinavian  esperanto" i.e. a mixture of Swedish, Danish and Norwegian to be the tenth official language if Sweden, Finland and Norway is going to enter the EC.

My respond to this is that the best to do is to skip all official languages except English to reduce all interpretations etc. to a minimum. 

Most people in Scandinavia already knows English sufficiently well and the same goes for Germany and the Netherlands. I can't see any reason why Germans have to learn French and English or French German and English. 

I am not saying that everyone in Europe should speak English only. What I mean is that English ought to be the inter-European language and that English to be the second language in all countries. There will always be a need for us in Sweden to learn French and German if we are going work there or having a lot of business with them. But it would be nice to be able to travel in Europe knowing that most people speaks English.

People that are going to work for EC should all learn English so that we don't have to see this simultaneous translation. I understand that this will give the English talking countries an advantage but I think that since more and more (at least younger) people already are using English as a second language this advantage will disappear within about ten years.

The gain of all people talking the same language is of course obvious. The reason to choose English instead of German (that is the largest EC language today) is also obvious. It is (unofficially maybe) the World language though not the largest but the most spread language.

I also have a strong feeling that I'm writing about is already happening in Germany, France, Spain, Italy etc. - that the youth is already having English as their second language.

So, what is your opinion on this. Should we have only one official language or reduce it to Englisg, German, Italian, Spanish and French or keep it as it is today?



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From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 



ES>Cris Koutsougeras (ck@cs.tulane.edu) writes:
ES>>The EEC was convinced that the claims of Greece were legitimate
ES>Convinced because else there would be one country saying no to
ES>Maastricht? I'm sorry my friend but that conviction is likely
ES>to not be more than skin deep.

    Reality check: Denmark has already said 'NO' to Maastricht. All that
    stuff about "Maastricht not being valid unless every country voted for
    it" was ancient history long before the Macedonia vote.

    Maastricht will go ahead without one country. Why not two? If they
    are going ahead without Denmark, believe me they would not have a second
    thought about going ahead without Greece.

    Greek concerns are legitimate. The EEC leaders can see through the
    falcifications of history advanced by the Skopjie govmnt.

    Michael.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it?
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: "Ethnic Cleansing"
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:20:48 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Stephen D Murray (murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk) writes:
>  I understand (please correct me if I am wrong) this to mean
> the process of turfing people out of their own homes in order that others
>can come and live there. But why call it 'cleansing'? Why not refer to it
>as it really is, a despicable crime of invasion,murder and yes, genocide.
>  Why is no-one using the word GENOCIDE ? That is the real meaning of
>"Ethnic cleansing."

There is a great difference of taking houses for people and sending
them into refugeehood and onright killing them. The most of them
are at least still alive.

Ethnical cleansing is terrible as it is. Not that the concept is new.
Germans were forced to leave lands where they have lived for a long
time in Pommern, Silesia, Prussia, Bohemia and Moravia. This time
the forms for the cleansing is just more disordered.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
From: murraysd@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen D Murray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: limit
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:18:37 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.



 Isn't it time to put a limit on the number of articles any one person
can post to a newsgroup in one day?                
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Gen. MacKenzie about Bosnia
Date: 18 Aug 1992 14:56:25 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

TIME, August 17, 1992.

Q: Tp "pacify" all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what size military operation would be
needed?

A: Well, the Germans gave it a try with 30 divisions, and they weren't
successful. A lot of people were killed. if there were resistance
throughout Bosnia-herzegovina and you had to occupy it, you could be talking up
 to 1 million troops.

Q: Why not bomb artillery positions and send in helicopter gunships?

A: You wouldn't be able to find all the weapons systems that are doing the dama
ge. Mortars are the favored weapon in Bosnia, and they're hidden very easily
and carried around in everything from school buses to cars. What's much
more important is that if you do that, then the U.N. peacekeeping force is
whether it likes it or not, affiliated with the side not being attacked.
Therefore you have sitting there 1600(U.N. soldiers) hostages.

Q: Is there anything that would rapidly improve the situation in Bosnia?

A: Yes - and the presidency [of Bosnia] will hate to hear me saying this:
negotaiations with the Serbian side within Bosnia. The presidency will not
talk to the other side because they say this is a war of aggression
controlled by Belgrade. they feel that if they start to talk, the status
quo will be frozen, and they don't have a lot of territory. If you don't
want to talk, then there's only one solution: one side wins, one side loses
and a lot of people get killed in between. So my feeling is that
pressure has to be brought to bear to get them to the table. The Serbs will
talk any time, any place, at any lebel because they probably have what they
want. It seems to me talking could get the Bosnian Muslims territory.

.................
Q: You don't entirely blame the Serbs?

A: When people ask me whom do you blame, I say, "Give me the day and the
month, and I'll tell you". What the Serbs did three months ago was totally
unacceptable: the city was bombarded, civilians were targeted. Today it is
more complex. What we now see from the Bosnian presidency's side is
that it's in their interest to keep the thing going and get the Serbs
to retaliate in order to convince the international community that
intervention is a good idea. So I blame both sides.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: What kind of people are Turks?
From: Hakki_Kocabas@kcbbs.gen.nz (Hakki Kocabas)
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:36:59 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

We are great people.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: mb2p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Marco  Bertamini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: European language?
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:28:22 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1992Aug19.154611.9639@ericsson.se> etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se writes:
>
>So, what is your opinion on this. Should we have only one official 
>language or reduce it to Englisg, German, Italian, Spanish and French 
>or keep it as it is today?

 I think English as an European language is a good idea. 
Besises, this is not just a political problem. The spread
of English (or American English) all over the world is a fact
anyway. One of the reason is the fact that English
is a language that borrow very easily foreign terms, and
use them in its structure. In fact, I'm convinced that
American English can be considered a neo-latin language!

 However, it is important not to take this as an excuse to
underestimate other languages. I do not expect them to
die in the future. Knowledge of the language is the only
way to take a close look to a different culture.

 Let me point out however that there are other issues
to solve, in order to make international communication easier.
I hope you agree that we need to get rid of miles, inches, 
feet, and other silly and obsolete units!!

ciao,  Marco
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: mb2p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Marco  Bertamini)
Subject: Re: Behaviorism (was: Hats off to Meggy)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 19:45:12 GMT

In article <Aug.13.18.39.52.1992.26625@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>
>It's pointless to argue that force cannot bring solutions. It would be
>OK if you argued using moralistic judgments. Killing off all
>the people causing problems is guaranteed to stop violence. Note that
>I haven't used any moralistic arguments; just plain facts.

I wasn't arguing that violence cannot bring solutions. I was
arguing that violence does not bring real, stable solutions.
The concept itself of solution implies value judgments, so please
do not pretend to be so "scientific".
However, I agree that killing everybody may solve the war. In other 
words you are saying that we need a genocide to stop a genocide. Very
interesting.

>The fact is that military force stops invasions, makes invasions possible
>and also can stop ethnic stife. The only question is how much force
>is morally tolerable or justifiable under the circumstances.
>
>Positive/Negative feedback have to to with continuing/reversing the
>trend and nothing to do with morality. 
>
>> I would even claim that reacting with violence to violence is POSITIVE feedback
>> in control-theoretic terms, and as such it leads to instability and blow-up.
>
>You can claim anything you want. You have to be correct to convince
>people. Reversing a trend is possible only with negative feedback
>not positive feedback. Positive feedback will only increase the
>trend. Positive feedback to violence will always (not temporarily i.e.
>transiently) increase the violence. Negative feedback will in the
>end, put a stop to it. 

you statment that reversing a trend is possible ONLY with negative
feedback is incorrect. Moreover, you cannot equate the behavior of
an individual with that of a whole population. 

Let's face it, Behaviorism in its popular form does not explain 
everything. Not every form of behavior will change with the same 
kind of feedback. And there are behaviors that will simply not 
be changed. In other words you will kill the animal before changing it. 
This is again the proposal of a genocide.

>It would take too long to continue.
>-- 
>	mark	

right, and that's because human behavior is not as simple as you 
want to paint it.

ciao,  Marco

p.s. maybe this should continue by e-mail
Xref: sparky soc.culture.europe:7258 soc.culture.usa:6558
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Hats off to Meggy
Date: 13 Aug 92 02:57:58 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Aug13.022144.7929@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> mb2p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Marco  Bertamini) writes:


> not stop the war tomorrow. Moreover, I really think that providing
> arms will only make the confrontation worse, and I just hate the 
> principle of rich countries sending arms all over the word where 

It all depends on the function you want to maximize.

If you think it's better for x people to die on one side than for
y > x people to all together then for sure it's a lot better for
powerful neighbors to attack their weak neighbors and kill
off x persons. However if evenly matched adversaries fought
and the number of people dead were y (where y > x) then you
claim that this is a worse scenario.

Are you by chance a devotee of Clausewitz ?


With this kind of reasoning, it would be possible to say that
the best thing the world could have done during WWII would
have been to allow the Nazis to kill 10 million Jews, 2 million
Gypsies, 10 million Poles, 10 million Russians, 10 million
of others (still less than 60 mil)  than to intervene and have 60 
million people (total) die. 

With this kind of logic, you'll go really far, but I don't
know in which direction.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.europe:7555 talk.politics.soviet:7152
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Romania or Roumania ?
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:12:31 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK


In article <l92025INNsqu@pollux.usc.edu> bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur) writes:
><...> I believe that there are many misconceptions in the world about 
>Romania, and for that reason I felt that I should stand up and try to show
>what the Romanians call their country.

It is certainly good for people to know that; however, what Romanians
call their country (in their language, presumably) doesn't have to be
the same as what English speakers call her in English.

>Very often in issues like "names of 
>places" dictionaries are not the best place to refer to since they just cover
>what people use more often, rather than what is a correct spelling.

What they should do is present the English name of the country,
together with the name(s) used by the natives (in brackets), eg Spain
(Espan~a), Germany (Deutschland), India (Bharat), Japan (Nippon),
R(o)umania (Roma^nia), etc.

>As for the Gypsy influences there are many people around the world that say
>that Romanians are Gypsies (heard it more than once).  This kind of "facts"
>make me so angry sometimes.

No reason to be angry.  "Romanian" (derived from "Romany") is a
legitimate word for `Gypsy'.  (Check the _OED_.)  It is not too
convenient to have two nationalities called by the same name because
of a coincidence, but the people who are confused by this situation
aren't guilty of anything.  (This is, incidentally, yet another reason
to use _R(o)umanian_ in English.)

-- 
 `If ye hiv ears oan yer heid - then use them tae lissen.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski   (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk;  iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.romanian,talk.politics.soviet
From: pmaggs@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Peter B. Maggs)
Subject: Re: Romania or Roumania ?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:00:11 GMT

There is a theory, to which I subscribe, that countries that insist on
foreigners using their native-language name are headed toward third
world status.  Examples:  don't care what you call us countries:
Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, England.  use our native name
countries:  Kampuchea, Myanmar, . . . spell our capital in the native
way - Beijing.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
From: kevin@clsi.COM (Kevin Cameron)
Subject: Re: Hats off to Maggie (not "Meggy")
Originator: kevin@dubhe
Organization: CAD Language Systems Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 14:13:53 GMT


In article <oeXkic200iUxI2nv12@andrew.cmu.edu>, mf0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michel Fougeres) writes:
> I, too, was surprised and touched when "the Iron Lady" whom I used to
> detest came out as the only European statesman/stateswoman of stature to
                              ^^^^^^^^

I don't think this is an appropriate adjective for M. Thatcher, I don't recall
her doing anything to further "European" ideals in her entire time in power. Her
major interest seemed to be in British (maybe even just English) sovereignty.
By taking an alternative stance to J. Major she can get some political limelight.

- She didn't care about a large percentage of the UK population, so why should
she care about people on the far side of Europe?

Kev.

-- 
Kevin Cameron          CLSI, Suite 100, 5457 Twin Knolls Rd., MD 21045, USA
kevin@clsi.com         Tel: (USA) (410) 992 5700 (- 5709) X229
uunet!clsi.com!kevin   Fax:       (410) 992 3536
----------------------------------------------------------- Reality Is virtual
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.romanian,talk.politics.soviet
From: mihai@nada.kth.se (Mihai Dorobantu)
Subject: Re: Russian intervention in Moldova?
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 07:40:42 GMT


As far as I know, the Russian Federation has denyed 
any intervention of the ex-Soviet 14-th army in Moldova.

The official explenation was that some "unauthorized
elements" of the 14-th army took part in military 
actions in Moldova !

This seems a little similar to the ex-Jugoslav army which was
officialy pulled out of Bosnia but "forgot" a few hundred 
tanks and heavy artilery pieces.( This is an absolutly 
personal remark).

Mihai Dorobantu

Dept. for Numarical Analysis and Computer Science
The Royal Institute for Technology, Stockholm - Sweden
From: dhaliwa@ecf.toronto.edu (DHALIWAL BIKRAM SINGH)
Subject: Hungary featured at CNE
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:08:07 GMT

Although I am not Hungarian (but my girlfriend is, thus the vested interest)
I would like to remind everyone about Hungary (Magyar) being the featured
country at the C.N.E. this summer.  See you there:)


-- 
 
.............................................
: Bikram Dhaliwal (dhaliwa@civ.toronto.edu) : 
: Oakville        (dhaliwa@ecf.toronto.edu) :
From: FEKETE@bcvms.bc.edu (Zoli Fekete)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: AGORA-SCMPOST Miklo1s Radno1ti: Fragment
Date: 19 Aug 1992 21:47:22 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: fekete@bcvms.bc.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

From:	BITNET%"CSERGO@GWUVM"      "Csergo Zsuzsa" 19-AUG-1992 22:44:49.01
 
I lived on this earth in an age
When man fell so low he killed with pleasure
And willingly, not merely under orders.
His life entangled, trapped, in wild obsession,
He trusted false gods, raving in delusion.
 
I lived on this earth in an age
That esteemed informers, in an age whose heroes
Were the murder, the bandit and the traitor.
And such as were silent - or just slow to applaud -
Were shunned, as if plague-stricken, and abhorred.
 
I lived on this earth in an age
When any who spoke out would run for it -
Forced to lie low and gnaw their fists in shame.
The folk went mad and, drunk on blood, filth, hate,
Could only grin at their own hideous fate.
 
I lived on this earth in an age
When a curse would be the mother of a child
And women were glad if their unborn miscarried.
The living - with poison seething on his plate -
Would envy the grave-dweller the worms eat.
 
..............................................
 
I lived on this earth in an age
When poets too were silent: waiting in hope
For the great Prophet to rise and speak again -
Since no-one could give voice to a fit curse
But Isaiah himself, scholar of terrible words.
 
19 May 1944
 
(From the collection Miklo1s Radno1ti: Forced March. Selected poems translated
by Clive Wilmer and George Go2mo2ri)
From: FEKETE@bcvms.bc.edu (Zoli Fekete)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: AGORA-SCMPOST Miklo1s Radno1ti: NEITHER MEMORY, NOR MAGIC...
Date: 14 Aug 1992 13:33:11 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: fekete@bcvms.bc.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

From:	BITNET%"CSERGO@GWUVM" 14-AUG-1992 13:30:09.62

 
Miklo1s Radno1ti: NEITHER MEMORY, NOR MAGIC...
 
Til now, so much anger lay hideen in my heart,
As, in the core of an apple, the dark-brown seeds lie deep,
And I knew there was an angel walking, sword in hand, behind me --
There, in my time of trouble, to protect and defend me.
 
But if, some wild dawn hour, you should awake to find
Your world collapsed in ruins, and set forth like a ghost
Leaving your few things behind you, almost naked:
Then in your beautiful heart, made light, there starts to grow
A mature humility, reflective, of few words.
And when you speak rebellion, it will be disinterested --
In hope of a free future shining from far ahead.
 
I have never had anything and never shall do now --
Consider just for a moment the wealth of this my life:
No more anger in my heart, I care nothing for revenge,
The world will be rebuilt and, though my song is banned,
My voice shall be heard again where the new walls arise.
I live through in myself all that is yet to come.
I shall look back no more, for I know, there is no protection --
Neither in memory, nor in magic: the sky is grim.
Friend, if you see me, shrug, then turn your back on me.
Where once the sword-armed angel stood, perhaps
Now there is nobody.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From the collection Miklo1s Radno1ti: Forced March, 
Selected Poems translated by Clive Wilmer and George Go2mo2ri
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 01:46:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Magyar women, having a problem finding a Magyar man?  I am about to 
launch a free electronic matching service on Usenet.  Thanks to the 
imbalance of men to women on Usenet, more guys than gals have 
expressed an interest so far.  If you would like to see the fifth 
draft of my questionnaire so we can alter it to also fit women's 
needs as well as men's, either send me mail or look at the copy I 
posted in alt.personals.  
 
This service is serious and I already have 310 men and 174 women
signed up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected
and programming is nearly completed.
 
I should point out that this questionnaire really, really, really,
needs some more input on CULTURES.  I need some questions to make
sure that matches are compatible culturally.
 
                                                          Eric Klien