HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin)
Subject: Re: awful Delaney
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 00:28:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.155210.29731@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>In article <1992Aug08.055108.7244@highlite.uucp> yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug5.164638.18714@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>
>>>I suppose there are probably a number of ex-English majors working with me at
>>>Pac Bell (where I've been since before the third (FLIGHT) and fourth (BRIDGE)
>>>books came out), but, to the best of my knowledge, none of 'em have read any
>>>Delany.
>>
>>Statistical significance is a real problem - but the only English
>>major I've ever sullied with the question brightened significantly at
>>the mention of Delany.  
>
>Indeed, given how little information your claims are based on, you really
>ought to say a good deal less.  "Intellectual dishonesty" is the nicest
>thing I can think of to say about your wild-assed claims with little or no
>factual basis.

Pah.  Intellectual dishonesty, Dan'l?  I'm tempted to cry, 'tautology,'
and have done.  

But what epithet would I find for errors such as yours?  For he who
thinks the great questions of cultural mores can be settled by some
piddling straw poll?  For he who would diagnose the kaleidoscopic
symptoms of a sick society with his nose in the air and his ear
to the telephone company?

Spurn not the complex luxuries of debate, Dan'l; statistics will not
scratch you where you itch.  There are two judges only of Delany's
merits: the vulgar ballot of the cash register, and the mass raving of
critical consensus.  Of courtesy I will refrain from pressing you on
the first; defend the second, or admit as proven your depraved taste
in fiction.  

Which exceeds only your low character & lower morals, etc, etc, and
tamp it down with insinuations of caprine parentage.  Ad hominem, 
ad astra.

c
From: sigel@vsscad.enet.dec.com (Andrew Sigel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: K. Kurtz' Deryni series
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:02:27 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Aug19.211521.4958@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> cliff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Cliff Chen) writes:
>
>	Actually, in an interview with Katherine Kurtz, she said that after
>she finished Javan's Year and the Adept Book 2, the multitude of fan
>letters that she got has made her decide to put everything else on hold and
>start work on The Quest for Saint Camber Book 4!  The whole reason behind
>the book:  To get Kelson married.

The Adept book 3 has already been turned in and is in production.  Expect to see
it in spring or summer 1993.

If Katherine is going back to Kelson, it may well be, in part, because book 3 
in the Heirs of Camber series is another one in which *everyone* dies.  (Year
948, I believe.  Just look at the family trees in various appendices.)  And I've
never  heard her talk about why.  (She may still have to figure that out.)
---   
Andrew Sigel (Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton, MA)

UUCP		...!decwrl!vsscad.enet!sigel
Internet	sigel@vsscad.enet.dec.com	
	- or -	sigel%vsscad.enet@decwrl.dec.com
---
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: gapdrr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Daniel R T Rothman)
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:18:44 GMT

ins450m@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (T.F. Eccles) writes:

>jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) writes:

>>In article <gapdrr.713727865@gsusgi1.gsu.edu> gapdrr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Daniel R T Rothman) writes:
>>>evolution IS catching up with us...  The upper echelons of the industrialized
>>>societies have a non-replacement birth rate. The majority of population 
>>>growth in first-world countries is coming from lower-income large families,
>>>and many of these are relatively immune to economic pressures, because these
>>>large families are subsidized by governments.

>>This isn't evolution.  Income isn't genetically determined; just
>>because you're poor doesn't mean that your children will be poor.  Also,
>>the current events are happening over much too short a time scale to
>>constitute a real change in the human race.  The relative proportions of
>>different ethnic groups might be changing, but that's different than saying
>>that the human race is evolving.

>Hmmmm. I think the origianl posting made the all-too-common
>mistake of confusing trends in society with evolution....
>there is a simple, but easy to find difference.... if you come
>back in a million years, one of them will have made a 
>noticible change.

i apologize for my less-than-clear post. One of the currently well-accepted
theories in genetics is that evolution occurs over bursts, with relatively
long periods of inactivity. It is very possible that the human race is
going through one of the "growth spurts" before our very eyes. As a previous
poster (lost the reference..) mentioned, evolution tends to operate either
when external conditions alter, or when a new factor is added to the
population.

Over the past 200 years, the conditions in which human beings exist have
changed radically, principally because humans CAUSED these changes.
Part of the current manifestation is the reproductive predominance of
several subsets.

While behaviours have not been shown to be genetically determinate, 
parenting behaviours are learned from parents, as are many other survival
behaviours, especially in a species whose principle survival characteristic
is their ability to learn new behaviours.  Part of what I currently
perceive is that the reproductive advantage lies with those who are
unwilling or (for whatever reasons) unable to educate themselves and
become materially prosperous. As soon as it occurs that a member of this
group becomes educated and/or materially prosperous, that persons
reproductive strategy changes, and he leaves fewer off-spring.

This sounds very much like selective breeding, and it does NOT require
the untold passage of generations for active selective breeding to have
a profound effect on the population in question.

Just to start a new flame-war: Has anyone noticed recently that 
socio-economic status is a highly correlative factor in mate choice 
(specific profession for that matter...)?
Is it just possible that we're BREEDING distinct haves and have-nots?
From: leue@crd.ge.com (Bill Leue)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: What are the best fantasy books involvi
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:24:22 GMT
Reply-To: leue@crd.ge.com
Organization: General Electric Research & Development

Barbara Hambly's "Dragsonbane" gets my vote.  I think it's here best as well.

-Bill Leue
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: hoahosth@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (ANDREA HOSTH)
Subject: Re: Katherine Kerr's Polar City Blues
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University 
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:28:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.200526.10151@cas.org> lgs57@cas.org writes:
>From: lgs57@cas.org

>I recently read Katherine Kerr's Polar City Blues.  I enjoyed it very much.  I
>especially liked the treatment of aliens and psychics.  Did anyone else read
>it and what did you think?  Would you call it a suspense SF novel?

Well I really enjoyed this. Its a mix between suspense, detective and SF. I 
really liked 'Mrs Bug' and it was also one of those stories where you're 
kept guessing. The protagonists are likable, the prose enjoyable, its just 
plain good really.

Ankh
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Conspiracy Among Book Reviewers?
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:23:05 -0600

 EW> W. H. Watt (ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk) inquires:

 EW>   A couple of months ago, there was an article in The Times on
 EW>   a 'cartel' among reviewers of literature.  Apparently, as the story
 EW>   goes, there exist 'families' (in the Mafia sense) of authors.  If
 EW>   an author belongs to a particular 'family', it is highly likely that
 EW>   his/her book will receive favourble reviews.

 EW>   Does this occur in SF and Fantasy literature as well?

 EW> But as for an industry agenda---no, not really.  Somewhat, but not
 EW> really.

Most individual reviewers have their personal crotchets; some rise
above them better than others.  At least one publication has an
apparent policy of not reviewing at least one author.  

But I agree that in the sense described by W.H. Watt this sort of
thing doesn't appear to go on in SF.

 * Origin: GOD is REAL (unless declared INTEGER) (1:282/341.0)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Go to alt.fan...we don't want you(was Re: rec.arts.sf.written FAQ)
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:23:17 GMT

In article <1b87eee7.ARN23b6@prolix.pub.uu.oz.au> munnari!labtam!eyrie!prolix!dac writes:

)> Look, this is a PUBLIC forum for discussing written science fiction
)> and fantasy.  Not just "real" SF.  Not just "classic" SF.  Not
)> just YOUR idea of what is good, not just what is MY idea of what 
)> is good.  I think it is awfully pompous of you to presume to 
)> decide what is not _real_ SF.  Why don't you create a newsgroup
)
)Please, feel free to wax lyrical on your very special subject
)"Why I think Piers Anthony deserves to win every literary prize
)in existence, and then some." Or perhaps compose a heartfelt
)admission to the effect that you consider the _Gor_ series to be
)the most wonderfully accurate, true to life, 'SCIFI', that
)you've ever encountered.
)
)Admit to a fetish for Jack L. Chalker's never ending
)shape-changing series. 

OK.

I generally like Pier's *first* book in a series.  I liked 'Death Rides
A Pale Horse' for instance.  Then, he usually drives it into the ground
(IMO).  I think he tones down the kinky sex in his early (series-wise) books
too.

I must have read at least 3 Gor novels before I game up on them.  Well,
I was younger and more foolish in those days, and SF wasn't as available.
I would like to see "Carl Talbot meets Telzey Amberdon" someday, though :-).
But you'd need two treatments, natch - one by Norman where Talbot prevails,
and another one by Schmitz where Telzey 'does her thing'.

Chalker is getting out of shape-changing and into religion in his latest
'Demons' book.  He's toned downed the S&M submissive stuff a lot, too.

Oh yeah, you forgot to mention Sharon Green - she should also be on the
'Kinky Sex SF list'.

And what about Schmitz?  Anybody for bashing 'The Witches of Karres' for
encouraging  "Child Pornography"?
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: The Soldier series
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:33:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: techbook.1992Aug19.103315.11585
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard

steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn) writes:
>rvinluan@cs.cornell.edu (Rolando Vinluan) writes:
>>	2) I don't have the first book, and the second
>>doesn't come with a map, so can somebody help me with
>>the modern names of the places? Rope is Sparta, Thrace
>>is well, Thrace. But Hill, Tower Hill, Sestos, Nestos,
>>Cowland...HELP!?!?
>
>The only one I remember is that Thought is Athens.  

If I remember correctly, Tower Hill is Corinth.  If not then Hill is.


>The
>first book doesn't have a map either.  

But it has a glossary.  

>
>There may not be a third book.  Wolfe says he just plans
>to write them whenver he feels the interest.  They're
>going to be a kind of walking tour of ancient Greece.

When I found out that it was a tour, I lost interest in the story.
After reading Soldier in the Mist, I thought it was a modern version of
a Greek tragedy.  The premise of the story certainly seems like that's
what it should be.  But Arete doesn't advance this aspect at all.  He
just keeps wandering around Greece.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: What are the best fantasy books involving dragons?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 18:02:31 GMT

An interesting book, if you can find it, is "Dragons: An Introduction
to the Modern Infestation".  Don't remember the author, but it's
written like a popular book on an scholarly topic (kinda like Thor
Heyerdahl's "Kontiki").  Great section on the "author's" living with a
clutch of dragons in the Andes (ala "Gorillas in the Mists").

It claims that dragon's are actually all around us, you just can't see
them. (You'll have to find the book to find out why! 8-)

Michael A. Chance
From: throopw@sheol.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Duncan's Latest
Summary: agree as to quality, perplexed over comparison
Date: 15 Aug 92 05:26:29 GMT

> From: tomw@orac.esd.sgi.com (Tom Weinstein)
>> From:  Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
>> I've just finished Dave Duncan's latest novel, a fantasy called The
>> Reaver Road, and I got a kick out of it.
> Let me second this.  TRR is a great story.

Me too, me too.

>> You can see some ideas evolving from book to book (for example, his
>> concept of gods in Man of His Word is clearly the basis for the gods
>> in TRR), but he always manages to put a new spin on them.

Hmmmmm.  Here Crawford has lost me.  Perhaps Duncan put such a new
spin on the notion of godhood a-la AMoHW that I just don't recognize
it anymore.  I'd appreciate it if Crawford could expand on why he
finds the former the basis for the latter.

Here's why I *don't* find the ideas related (in other than the obvious
way in that they are both notions of godhood).  In AMoHW, the gods
appear rarely, are refered to by dual-sex phrases always, and have
obvious magically enhanced physical bodies, and are never seen in mortal
incarnations. 

In TRR, the gods appear (at least arguably)* frequently, are refered to
by sexually specific phrases always, have no obvious magical
manifestations other than "political" or "mental", and are never seen
*except* in mortal incarnations.

As I say, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how anybody would think that
these two things are a spin on the same idea.  I'll go further: the
concept of gods from The Seventh Sword series is distinct from *either*
of these two (appear rarely, sex-specific, manifest in both magical,
nonmagical, mortal, and immortal seemings). 

* ( there are two ways I would argue that they appear frequently
    in TRR, the details of which would be spoilers, and of course
    there are ways in which these three notions of gods are distinct
    besides those listed above, which are also spoilers )
--
Wayne Throop  ...!mcnc!dg-rtp!sheol!throopw
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: lpj@col.hp.com (Laura Johnson)
Subject: Re: Recommendation on Fantasy Epic Novels
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:45:17 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

Well, don't get the impression that Tolkien is "just literature" and
not great escapist fantasy!  I couldn't put _The_Lord_of_the_Rings_
down when I first read it; and I've read it several times since. Because
the fantasy world, Middle-Earth, is so detailed, it becomes a great
place to escape to.

IMHO of course. 
-- 
Laura Johnson
lpj@hpctdls.col.hp.com
Opinions expressed are my own, but may be licensed for a nominal fee.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John S. Novak III)
Subject: Re: _Tigana_ question
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:30:02 GMT

In <2A91E697.21641@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:

>Possible mild spoilers follow



>A question, though.  If the magic is tied to the land, then would your
>magic change as you travelled?  If the land somehow supplied the
>focus?  Obviously not, as Brandin's magic did not change, but *why*
>not?  There must be soemthing more than this, but he did not clarify
>it.

I'm not sure.  An interesting point.  However, even though both
types of Palmer magic seem to be inherently tied into the land of
the Palm (I refer to the Night Walker magic, and to the Fingers
magic) we don't know what the effects would be if they left the
Palm.  After all, lopping off two of your fingers is a good way
of creating a sympathetic link to the land, and its spirit.  This
link may or may not be dependant on proximity.

We're also told almost nothing of the Barbadian magics, or any
others.  They may _not_ be tied to the land.

>That's OK, I don't mind speculating.  I don't want another Tigana
>book, this was great by itself (though I had the nagging feeling that
>the last scene was there to provide for another book following
>_Tigana_).

I _hope_ he writes more, but not another Tigana novel.  The whole
setting seemed to be set up (and beautifully at that) to tell
this one story.  Using it in any other plot would be near
criminal.

Does anyone know what Mr. Kay is working on right now?

--
"I didn't DO anything.  I don't know how that 666 got on your calculator."
          -Mike Ostrego, 09-29-91
John S. Novak, III		darknite@camelot.bradley.edu
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Help finding a trilogy
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:32:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug20.063237.28233
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society

In article <3294@creatures.cs.vt.edu> brand@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Jeff Brandenburg) writes:
>
>Author:  Steve Perry
>Publisher:  Ace SF
>Titles:  _The Man Who Never Missed_, _Matadora_, _The Machiavelli Interface_
>Sequels: _The Albino Knife_, _Black Steel_
>Prequel: _The 97th Step_
>
>Yep, there are six of them now.  I'd call them "guilty pleasures" -- lots of
>sex, drugs and violence, chrome everywhere, never a dull nanosecond.  But
>there's also a lot of exploration of characters, and it's a *very* well-
>realized milieu.  I confess, I buy them promptly as they appear...

 I like them and buy them as fast as I can as well. I rate the first book
(The Man Who Never Missed) as some of the best sci-fi I've ever read. I
was a bit disappointed with The Albino Knofe though.

Wassail,
Al Billings

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
------------------------------ Cut Here -------------------------------------
begin 644 GRENDEL.PUB
MF58``1%^*@Q":6QL:6YG<RP@06S^`2N`$7JAHA^YG*D:W0:>,_,\N<XL-]7BN
LV+1/'DT4SH3V2$'*(9NAE_,+VB9R.4=@$9R.J1?CL3H!9@HR8+7DD3@%`!$%E
``
end
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Elric Chronicles
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:33:46 GMT

In article <BsvwHL.HLL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, aak50740@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Count Zero ) writes:
|> 	Has anyone read Michael Moorcock's 'Elric Chronicles'? It looks
|> fascinating but maybe someone can tell me if it is a waste of time...

 That's about right. It's a fascinating waste of time. 
 
 I'd rather waste my time with Moorcock than, say, Piers Anthony any day.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Pro-Environment. Pro-Education. Pro-Family. Pro-Choice. 
     \_| Pro-Change. Pro-America. Pro-Clinton.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eah4@po.CWRU.Edu (Elizabeth A. Hlabse)
Subject: Re: K. Kurtz' Deryni series
Reply-To: eah4@po.CWRU.Edu (Elizabeth A. Hlabse)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 12:28:33 GMT


In a previous article, hachiman@milton.u.washington.edu (Matt Downer) says:

>In article <1992Aug19.211521.4958@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> cliff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Cliff Chen) writes:
>>
>>	Actually, in an interview with Katherine Kurtz, she said that after
>>she finished Javan's Year and the Adept Book 2, the multitude of fan
>>letters that she got has made her decide to put everything else on hold and
>>start work on The Quest for Saint Camber Book 4!  The whole reason behind
>>the book:  To get Kelson married.
>
>	It's about time!!!! :)
>
			DITTO!

But please remember (as Katherine said in a letter), Kelson is only
18 years old.  Okay, so he's king of Gwynedd and has to make sure to
have an heir, but give the kid a break.  He may be a little leary of
marriage.  His first bride is murdered at the altar by her brother and
the second ends up marrying his cousin (the snake).  I don't know about
anyone else, but that would make me a little hesitant to try again.

So, any speculation onwho the new lady of his life may be?  My vote would
be for a descendant of Camber (sort of to tie the whole series together).



-- 
      Beth Hlabse (eah4@po.CWRU.Edu)  Asst. Sysop  SciFi Sig (GO SCIFI)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  To give what we can ..... To take what we must ..... To dance the spiral
         To be one with the magic ..... To live -- and die -- free!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: daynem@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller)
Subject: Epic fantasy novels
Summary: The Wheel of Time
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:37:29 GMT

OK, for those of you who want to know about great epic adventures in the 
fantasy realm, I recommend the Wheel of Time cycle by Robert Jordan. The
book share many similarities with Tolkien's works, and a little of Stephen 
R. Donaldson's as well, but I think the Wheel of Time is the best fantasy
series extant today. The books are, in order:

     1) The Eye of the World
     2) The Great Hunt
     3) The Dragon Reborn
     4) Shadow Rising (due in bookstores sometime in October)
     5) unknown, due in one year
     6) unknown, due in two years

     TOR Fantasy seems to be publishing these about 1 year apart, and the
most frustrating thing about reading a series in progress is the wait for
new material. With Jordan, though, it's worth it.

     Any other suggestions??

	-Dayne Miller
           daynem@u.washington.edu

"And the people cried out to the Creator, saying O Light of the Heavens,
Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain as he
was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the
Morning sing to the land, that green things grow and the valleys give 
forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the
Dark, and the great sword of Justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride
again on the winds of time."

          -Robert Jordan, The Eye of the World


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mcconnel@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: The Keltiad (Re: Recommendation on Fantasy Epic Novels)
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:25:16 GMT

I've followed the arguments/flames of Qvortrup and Kaczmarczik over Kennealy's
_The Silver Branch_ and I have to place my vote with Qvortrup.  I found the 
book to be overly romanticized and, as he points out, many devices seem to have
been inserted merely for the expediency of furthering the plot, without having
consistency with the rest of the universe that she was creating.
A personal bugbear for me was the way that her 'Keltic' society was split along
the exact national or pseudo-national lines that we see today:  she has three
'nationalities' that are cleanly Scottish, Welsh, and Irish, with place and 
personal names reflecting this.  But (if I remember right) they were supposed 
to have split from Earth and European influence before these divisions were 
clearly formed.  In addition, over the course of millenia, wouldn't they have 
blended together and formed different distinctions?
All in all, the book and Kennealy's writing style just didn't work for me.

Michael McConnell
Department of Mathematics
Kent State University
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written