From: duane@thismoment.Corp.Sun.COM (Duane Day)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.moto.harley
Date: 22 Jul 1992 01:58:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: thismoment.corp.sun.com

In article <1992Jul22.001019.13180@wpi.WPI.EDU> mick@maxine.wpi.edu (Ravi Narayan) writes:
>Somewhere, Sometime, Thus Spake duane@thismoment.Corp.Sun.COM (Duane Day):
>:- 
>:- >	i do not know about the others, but i am someone who would
>:- >	like h-d riders to stick to rec.moto.
>:- 
>:- And who apparently intends to do what he can to impose that desire on them
>:- by actively working to prevent the establishment of the forum they actually
>:- want.
>
>	i have no intention nor means of "imposing" my desire upon any
>	group. 

I accept your statement as to your intention.  If you had been crusading 
against r.m.h to eliminate an option to your stated preference that Harley
riders "stick to rec.moto" could you see how that could be perceived
as "doing what [you] can to impose that desire on them"?  Upon reading
some of your past postings, I can see that you're not a real active 
campaigner against r.m.h.;  it appears I was mistaken to think otherwise.

>       i am not working to prevent the establishment of the group.
>	rather i wish it were made more clear why such a forum is
>	needed by those that advocate it.

I don't think the forum has to be "needed".  I think it is clear that
it is wanted, and the prevailing wisdom tells us that the proposed
newsgroup would be cheaper for the net at large than the existing
mailing list.  Hence, the question becomes, "does the cost outweigh
the benefits?"  The benefits seem clear.  The cost most often cited here 
has been the loss of Harley riders from r.m, but it sounds like most of
them left long ago so that one doesn't seem like much of a cost to me.

I also haven't seen anyone make a decent case for the assumption that
if r.m.h is created, all Harley riders will cease to read or participate
in r.m.  That assumption seems to be the basis for many of the objections
cited to creating r.m.h, and it seems faulty to me.

>:- Yeah - all you say is "put up with it."  You don't even want to leave them 
>:- the option to get out!
>
>	a keener observation of USENET (in the rec , soc, etc.,
>	hierarchy) would make clear to you what i mean. 

Please do not presume that my objections to your analysis are based upon
lack of participation in the rec or soc hierarchies.

>       as long as you
>	assume that i am "fighting" h-d riders and the formation of
>	the group or that they are "fighting" with me, i doubt you will
>	understand what i am saying.

I gathered that you were fighting the formation of the group.  You tell me 
you're not;  I accept that.

>:- >	ignore the extreme, rare, crappy flames, get a sense of humour,
>:- >	some pride in you machine *AND* stay in rec.moto.
>:- 
>:- And this is an example of how you propose to make Harley riders want to 
>:- "stick to rec.moto", right?  Trivialize their concerns, question their 
>:- pride and their sense of humor, lock all the exits and swallow the key.
>
>	that wasnt addressed towards h-d riders... that was directed
>	towards the person i was responding to. h-d motorcycles and in
>	most cases their riders are respected by quite a lot of people
>	who read rec.moto... a fact that you ignore when you say
>	"trivialize their concerns". 

The anti-Harley flames have been cited as a major source of annoyance by
several proponents of r.m.h.  Exactly what you meant by "extreme, rare,
crappy flames" is unclear, but it doesn't sound like you think it's
a legitimate concern.  That's what I meant when I said you "trivialize
their concerns."   They should just "ignore" those concerns and "get a 
sense of humor."

>       would you rather i make promises on
>	the behalf of the people in rec.moto (who i represent in no way)
>	of the type "please stick to rec.moto and we shall exterminate
>	all the vermin who say a thing against h-d"?

No, I would not.

What I'd actually prefer is that you support the creation of r.m.h, and
that you and the others here who are concerned about institutionalizing
divisions reach out to the Harley riders there to join in the general
motorcycling discussions on r.m.  Some will, and some won't, but they'll
have had the chance to decide for themselves rather than grudgingly
remaining in rec.moto because anti-r.m.h crusaders have left them nowhere 
else on the net to go.

>	anti-harley and anti-r.m.h are not the same thing.

Who said or implied that they were?