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Posted-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 09:14:49 PST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 09:14:49 PST
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      Re: PCT Fanatics

[From Rick Marken (921224.0800)]

Oded Maler (921224)--

>I'm writing this before reading the rest of the message, although I
>can predict (with 95% accuracy) the rest from the title..

How'd you do?

>I suppose the historical error was meant to be a trap

Nope. I actually consulted with my Catholicly trained wife before
posting; her guess was Assyrian but she knew she might be wrong
(hence I added the "or whomever"). Before meeting Linda, the Bible
was just another book that I figured could probably be skipped over
(like the 1932 World Almanac). But Linda told me all the great stories
and I really liked them. Unfortunately, it quickly became clear that
I didn't really "get" many of these stories. For example, to this day,
I still don't get the story of Jacob and Esau (at least, not the way
my Orthodox Jedwish step father gets it). To me, the obvious hero of
the story -- the admirable person -- is Esau; Jacob is a cowardly,
deceitful slimeball (like his mom). Obviously, it is possible to see
Jacob as the admirable person in the story -- most people seem to. But
I just can't. Those of you who haven't read it -- I recommend it. To me,
the last scence rivals that in "It's a wonderful life". Jacob returns
home (after screwing Esau out of his entire inheritance). He see's Esau's
army lined up on the ridge and he's scarred s**tless. So he hides
behind the skirts of his wives as the majestic figure of Esau descends
the hill towards him. Instead of chopping Jacob into little pieces
(which even Jacob figures he has every right to do) he embraces his
brother and welcomes. It brings a tear to my eye -- what a mensch,
that Esau.

>my interpretation of Hanukka is the victory of mid-eastern
>spiritualism  over helenic/western materialism (it were not the
>Assyrians but the Syrian/Greek part the post Alexander empire).

That's nice. I don't like celebrating Hanuka because the story is largely
about a war victory. The way you put it makes Hanuka seem less militaristic,
but it is still about a "victory" in a conflict -- in this case, a conflict
of ideas. But I don't like celebrating any victory -- it suggests
that a reasonable way to solve conflicts is for one side to win --
whether this winning is done by "intelligent debate", brow-beating or war.

I like Bill Powers' comments about war. War happens, and when it does
you might as well do it as best you can. But realize while you are
doing it that war represents a failure; a desperate, horrible failure
of conflict resolution. And if you happen to be lucky enough to be
on the side that "wins", don't celebrate -- mourn for the failure that
the stupid war represents. Regret war; regret victories as well as
defeats; they are both part of the same process. Devote yourself
more fervently to thinking of ways to resolve conflict; be prepared
with many, clever options; use your head to get above the conflict
(psychologically) instead of figuring out new ways to defeat the
enemy. It can be done -- just devote about half of the defense budget
to paying people to think of ways to "go up a level" instead of
perpetuating the conflict. It can be done if we stop celebrating victories
(or mourning losses). That's why I like what I perceive as the spirit
of Christmas; to me, the one great notion that comes out of Christian
thought is the idea that "fighting back" will not solve problems.
"Turn the other cheek" means that the best way to solve a conflict
is to move above it (don't participate at the levelt at which the conflict
is occurring) -- fighting back is participating. This is a
truly magnificent realization -- of course, there are damn few Christians
who actually practice this realization (far more of the "kill a commie --
I guess now it's kill a homo -- for Christ variety). But I think this
non-defensive approach to dealing with conflict was a major epiphany
that occurred around 1 AD and that's what I celebrate at this time
of year; I'm certainly no Christian, but I do believe in what I think
of as the spirit of Christmas -- non - defensiveness -- another name
for which is "forgiveness". PCT shows why "forgiveness" (like
186,282 miles per second) is not just a good idea -- it's the law
(at least, if you want to avoid the unpleasant side effects of conflict).

Best

Rick
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