From: bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers)
Subject: Jet Aces (was: Re: F-86 question...)
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
	<1992Dec24.204310.25269@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
	<BOWERS.92Dec30130558@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>
	<1993Jan6.175344.25434@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:10:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.175344.25434@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> thughes@lonestar.utsa.edu (Toby . Hughes) writes:

>In article <BOWERS.92Dec30130558@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:

>>I guess it was an odd bookkeeping thing related to the American Ace
>>List I have (from the American Fighter Aces Association).  It
>>seperates WWI and Vietnam, but it lumps Korea and WWII together.  It
>>also shows Col Robin Olds as having a total of 16.  I know Olds got 4
>>in Vietnam, but I thought he did only ground attack in Korea and had
>>only 8 from WWII?  Did Olds get 4 in Korea?  Or did I confuse
>>something again?

>Olds had 12 kills in WWII (9 in P-38s, 3 in P-51s).  For reasons I
>have never heard explained, he didn't get into the air-to-air war in
>Korea.  He spent the 50's in staff and command slots in the US,
>Germany, and Libya.  Why the USAF would not use a pilot with his
>record in what he did best is a good question.  This strange situation
>occured again in Vietnam, when Col Ralph Parr, a double ace in Korea
>with 10 kills, spent two combat tours as the DO and Commander of the
>12th TFW, the only F-4 wing in SEA that did not have an air-to-air
>mission.  Politics, I reckon.

Thanks for clearing that up.  It is possible that Olds, because of his
P-51 experience, was used only for CAS type missions.  That was the
only thing F-51s (as they were then called) were used for in Korea.  A
good refence on this is Fred Blesse's book "Check Six".

>>I wonder who the all-time jet ace is.  I know Major Walter Nowotny
>>only had 8 in the Me 262 (total of 258), and I know that Leutnant
>>Rudolf Rademacher had a total of 8 for the month of February 1945 in
>>an Me 262.  Col Toon of the NVAF was reputed to have had 17 total
>>during Vietnam...

>Never seen any OFFICIAL tally that beats McConnell's 16, but there are a
>couple of legends around about some better.  There was supposedly a honcho
>MiG-15 driver in Korea who racked up a couple of dozen kills.  He was
>variously reported to be North Korean, Chinese, and Russian.  Col Tomb is
>another subject of varying reports, with kill totals ranging from 13 to 17,
>with 13 being the more prevalent number.  There are also some who claim that
>Tomb never existed.

I had also heard that Toomb or Toon was a fabrication due to
propaganda.  It was also reported that Cunningham/Driscoll were
responsible for his death.  The story remains unconfirmed.

As it is, until 1966 I know that Joe McConnell and Heinrich (`Heinz')
Bar were tied for highest score ject ace.  McConnell with 16 in the
F-86 and Bar with 16 in the Me 262.

>One more rather fascinating rumor is that McConnell, Jabara, Fernandez, et al,
>may have bagged significantly higher numbers than officially reported.

Blesse also talks about this openly in his book.  Officially, crossing
the Yalu river was a no-no, as this was China (People's Republic of
China, PRC).  However, if you were in pursuit, pilots did chase
MiG-15s back to their bases.  It was strictly forbidden to hit them on
the ground and Blesse tells a story of one pilot who chased a MiG back
into the traffic pattern and over shot.  By the time he lined up on
the MiG again, the wheels were on the ground.  Blesse reported he
heard a radio transmission where the pilot was screaming "Come on you
sonovabitch, _BOUNCE_!"  It must have been frustrating...

Another time, Blesse reports that 100 Sabers were able to keep an
estimated 700 MiG-15 on the ground simply by flying around the pattern
of the airfields, everytime a MiG would try to take-off, the Saber's
simply buzzed him.  BTW, there were reports of three damaged that day,
the MiG's would over-run their runways and snap off their nose gears.
Counts as damaged, not a kill.

>Remember the line from "Top Gun" when Viper tells Maverick that there are
>some things that you don't hear about when they occur on the wrong side of
>some line on a map?

I know of 4 instances in Vietnam where the CHI-COM-NO-FLY zone was
violated.  All pilots were reprimanded, none were court martialed.

Thanks for the info.  It helps.

--
Al Bowers                       bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov
NASA F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle, Lead Aero
NASA, Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, California