From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a possibly Very Weird topic)
Date: 11 Dec 1992 17:55:48 GMT
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

vanhoek@bend.UCSD.EDU (Karen van Hoek) writes:

>Me again, on the subject of reclaiming sexuality.  In the book
>"Women Respond to the Men's Movement" p. 4, Ursula LeGuin writes
>about a gathering she was at where Robert Bly told her, "The
>Men have raised a Great Phallus farther up the river. ... I'd
>show you, but it's off limits to the Women...."  When I read
>that, I shuddered.  

I am glad you brought this up. I also read this book recently
and also felt my stomach doing flip flops at this image.

>Even though I'm generally sex-positive, and
>even though I believe in the power of dopey-seeming rituals to 
>change our consciousness, this was creepy -- that these Men's
>Movement men seemed to be getting into "phallus worship" with
>no sign of consciousness of how much damage has been done to 
>women through "cock supremacy".  For a moment there, the idea
>of a Great Phallus felt about the same to me as if he'd said
>Great Swastika.  

yeah.. although I would also add that people who are feeling some
animosity or ambivelance about a `mens movement' ought to take
a look at this book. Even though the `Bly men's movement types'
take a pretty good thrashing in the book, there is a lot of positive
support for a `men's movement' that IS sensitive to the BIG picture,
and not just with reclaiming a `positive' picture for men.


>My other comment is that still, you can imagine a way that
>men could celebrate in that way _and_connect with women
>rather than alienating them.  Probably many of you in this
>group aren't into dancing around maypoles or beating on
>drums, so I may've lost you as soon as I mentioned ritual.

Not here.. as a matter of fact, a group of men and women that I
know just did a Maypole last year up in New Hampshire, and the pure
joy of the celebration was thoroughly enjoyed. Some of the same people
we gathered with on Thanksgiving and drummed for 3 hours straight.
Wow.. what a Thanksgiving.

>But take this as a suggestion towards an _attitude_, a way
>of trying to bridge the male/female gap, rather than just a
>comment on how to make a new and improved ritual.  What if,
>as part of the Great Phallus celebration or whatever, the men 
>took some time to mourn the way that the penis has been
>identified as a weapon, and how that way of thinking about
>masculinity has separated men from women?  What if they
>talked about how they've found standard models of masculinity
>separating them from their fellow men?  What if they declared,
>as part of proclaiming the sacredness of their sexuality,
>that they weren't going to stand for masculinity being identified
>with the role of victimizer anymore, and they pledged themselves
>to fight against attitudes that encouraged men to take the role
>of victimizer?  What if they mourned the way that rape defiles
>male sexuality?  

Well said.. Just what the men's movement is all about.. To me that is..

Thanks
al



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