HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Temple Mount /
Date: 15 Sep 1992 23:37:01 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


  Why should it be surprising that the Koran changes wording from
the Bible?  Just compare the wording of a Jewish Bible in English
with the "Old Testament" in a Christian Bible!  Supposedly, these
are the same bible, but you would never know it, from the way the
wording in the Jewish Bible differs from the "Old Testament."
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel
From: farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Bobby Fischer, chess, Yugoslavia, UN, Israel and the Communists
Date: 5 Sep 92 05:30:26 GMT
Organization: none



Here's a good one.
     
 #From Japan Times, Sep. 3, 1992:
 #------------------------------------------------------------------
 #    
 #SVETI STEFAN, Yugoslavia (AP) Bobby Fischer not only plans to defy
 #a U.S. government warning not to play a $5 million chess match in
 #Yugoslavia - on Tuesday he spat on it, literally.
 #  
 #.....
 #
 #He criticized [at his press conference] the chess establishment,
 #Soviet publishers, world press censorship, Communists, Jews, Israel
 #and the United Nations and said he felt ill-treated by the US government.
 #  
 #.....
 #   
 #The only American ever to win the world chess championship, Fischer
 #was stripped of the title in 1975 when he refused to play Karpov
 #after quarreling with the International Chess Federation  over
 #contest ground rules.
 #   
 #.....
 #	  
 #Fischer was asked if he supported the international sanctions.
 #"No, I don't support the sanctions because first of all I don't
 #support the U.N.," he said. "For example, look at Israel. There
 #has been resolution after resolution against them for  them  to
 #leave the West Bank and so on," he said. "They ignore resolutions
 #and never have sanctions against them." Fischer also objected to
 #the U.N. General Assembly's rescinding of its resolution equating
 #zionism with racism.
 #	      
 #.....
 #		 
 #------------------------------------------------------------------
 			     
   - Farzin Mokhtarian
     farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Separate Palestinean culture ?
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:51:01 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem


Someone recently indicated that the Palestinians have a cultural heritage that
is distinct from other Arabs. Could anyone explain what distinguishes their
language, food, or culture from say a resident of Jordan ?

Thanks.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL








Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:20:04 GMT

 gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
##
##No it is not, if these interests don't call for the destruction of
##Israel. If I am not wrong, the communist party is not allowed to
##run in the US, and you cannot compare the danger they pose to
##the US with the danger the Hamas etc pose to Israel. Arabs vote
##for their representative, and they have two deputy ministers in
##the new government.
#
#You are wrong. The Communist Party USA is legal, is alive, and
#does run candidates. In fact, it's one of the few legal communist
#parties left in the world. It's membership was reputed to be about
#1/2 FBI undercover agents in the days of the "Red Menace" however. :-)

Thanks for the correction, Gary.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:33:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.064902.6028@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
>In article 18tah5INN88h@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>>
>>>>--
>>>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>>>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>>>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and
>>>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>>>followers from Europe landed there.
>>
>>Always???
>>
>>Those Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians are actually either (1)
>>relatively recent immigrants from nearby Arab countries, generally
>>attracted to Palestine by the economic opportunities that resulted from the
>>influx of Jews returning to their homeland, or (2) descendents
>>of earlier conquerors who kicked the Jews out of their homeland.
>
>That's the first time I remember hearing a claim that Palestinians
>are descended from Romans.  I suppose the occasional centurion might
>have dropped his jeans, er, genes.

Well, there's no doubt that during the Muslim occupation in the 9th
century many former inhabitants converted to Islam (they were mostly
Christian during the Byzantine rule). 

 David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 15:28:08 IST
From: Hank Nussbacher <HANK@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Dovid Levy joke

Q: Why did Dovid Levy keep running over to the TV set?



A: The reporter kept saying "Bosnia"  :-)


Hank Nussbacher
Karnei Shomron
Israel
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Rabin and Labor:Is Past Prologue?
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 06:54:07 GMT


In article 12639@das.harvard.edu, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1483500295@igc.apc.org> Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>>Palestinians, who have so far made all the concessions, had better 
>>be prepared to make more, if they are not to assume Shamir's role of 
>>the "obstinate" partner in the peace process.  Otherwise, Friedman 
>>implies, the "deal" is off.
>
>Could I be so bold as to ask for a list of concessions?  And could I
>ask what the following actions by Israel are, if not concessions made?
[list deleted]

.. a reasonable topic of discussion.  However, the problem I see in 
trying to compare one set of "concessions" to another is that the
two sides are not in equal places.  Almost every single card in the
deck is held by Israel.  The sad fact is that the Palestinians have
almost nothing concrete to give.  Perhaps it would be useful if you
could make a list of those concessions that you think it would be
reasonable for the Palestinians to make?

>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

Brendan.
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:02:54 GMT

In article <18tapbINN8jr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>
>>
>>Perhaps, now you can realize why it is so important to Muslims.  Our
>>tradition of the Prophet's Isra and Miraj (Journey and Ascension), which
>>took place during our holiest month, Ramadhan, left us Muslims with
>>the sanctuary of prayer...  This is in the Prophet's life, and later
>>on 'Umar ibn al-Khattab visited Jerusalem.
>
>If it is so important, then perhaps you can explain why so few Arab Muslim
>leaders visited Al Aksa while it was under Jordanian rule?  I seem to
>recall reading that whoever was ruling Saudi Arabia during that period
>never visited Al Aksa at all!

When analyzing relations between Jordan and Saudi Arabia one has to take
into account their decades-long rivalry, which explains a lot of this.
The royal family of Saudi Arabia, the Ibn Saud clan, were the bitter
pre-WWI rivals of the Hashemite clan, which today form the royal family
of Jordan.  The two families espouse somewhat different versions of
Islam (the Ibn Saud family are very strict Wahabi, while the Hashemites
are Sunni), but more to the point they were the ruling families of
warring city-states before WWI.  Ibn Saud won control of the Arabian
peninsula; the Hashemites were given Jordan by the British after WWI
essentially as a booby prize.  See Fromkin's excellent work, A Peace to
End All Peace.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 12 Sep 1992 17:25:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, friedenb@topaz.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) says:
>
>BUT, there was a case in Israel in the last few years.  A man who had
>'converted' away from Judiasm wanted to make aliyah in order to 
>further his missionary activities to get Jews to 'convert' to his
>religion.  He was born of a Jewish mother, yet the Israeli Supreme
>Court rejected his application for aliyah.
>
>I think that the press referred to him as Brother Jed, or Uncle Bob
>or something like that.

Are you sure that wasn't Buffalo Bob?
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Dual Loyalty (Re: Brendan is a (slur))
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:04:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.090801.4842@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.173916.14354@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>represented the US" is quite far out of line.  The charge of dual
>>loyalty is a common tactic used against American Jews by anti-Semites.
>>Alan Dershowitz documents this in great detail in his book "Chutzpah."

>Eric, while I did not get the entire thread (having been in N.M. for a month)
>I am wondering what is so offensive about accusing someone of dual loyalty,
>and indeed, if dual loyalty is such a bad thing.  Example, as you know,
>I am German-American and still feel a sense of loyalty to Germany.  Is
>this bad??

Dual-loyalty, as Eric points out above, is a charge that anti-Semites
often use against Jews -- "They're not real Americans, their loyalty
is divided, etc."  

>I don't think it is fair to accuse someone of Anti-Semitism simply because
>they question someone's loyalty...especially if that loyalty is well-based
>in ethno-religious similarities.  In fact, I believe 99% of American Jews
>feel a sense of loyalty to Israel and defend Israel out of that loyalty
>due to ethno-religious connections.  Many American boys serve in the
>Israeli military without doing the same for the US.  So what is so
>bad about that??  No one questions that, least of all Jewish people.

Nothing.  But no one suggests that Irish Americans are disloyal for
celebrating St Patricks day.  Some have suggested that Jews are
disloyal for supporting Israel.  There was someone, posting from
Cleveland Freenet, about months ago, who flamed about how Jews should
"go back to Israel." 

>And it really is unfair to suggest anti-Semitism just about every time
>someone disagrees with that singular interpretation of 242. (Goldberg's)

It was not the disagreement, but the insinuation that Goldberg was not
being loyal to the US, but instead Israel, in his negotiation.  Brendan
has acknowledged that his phrasing was poor, and said that he did not
mean to imply that Goldberg was not doing his job because of his
Jewishness. 
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:35 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Sep11.170602.18221@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>
>I seem to recal that very shortly before the invasion of Kuwait,
>Saddam promised the Kuwaitis that he would never invade them.  They
>trusted him and were betrayed.

I also seem to recall that shortly into the invasion, the United
States was saying that it was going to uproot Saddam from power,
bring him to the World Court for crimes against nature and
humanity, and even the Emir's promise in ensuring 'democracy',
American-style, to prevail in Kuwait after the War.  The American
people trusted those promises.  Were they kept?  Were we betrayed?

>I always thought that you guys hate the American GOVERNMENT and
>specifically do not hate the American PEOPLE.  More Middle Eastern
>double-talk, it appears.

Well the above is true.  It isn't double talk.  You and others just
try desparately to avoid the real *truth* of the situation by
excusing anything to comfort yourselves.

>Arafat has been living by this rule for a long time.  It seems to work
>for him.

And what about the people of Israel?

>Good grief!  You call the NY Times "biased and racist" but view "JFK -
>The Movie" as more reliable.  Wierd!

No - *YOU* called the NYT "biased and racist".  I was only supporting
your conclusion based on what you stated last year in view of the
so-called Arab leaders and Muslim perspectives on the Gulf War.  There
are facts and evidence that the movie, JFK, brought up to SUGGEST a
possibility of what really happened.  I never said that it was the
truth - only I stated that it is not totally unbelievable given the
dirty politics, corruption, and greed that the U.S. thrives on.

Read my WORDS, JAKE - not what you want to see!!

>Wait for the movie by Oliver Stone...

Or the follow-up discussion from the famous and most accurate
historian, Jake Livni ...

Ani ohevet otcha - but you already must know that.

Anisa
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Date: 12 Sep 1992 17:30:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I think that it is unrealistic to expect that Israel can get a peace treaty
without giving up some territory.  On the other hand, it is unrealistic for
Syria to expect that it will be able to gain control of the entire Golan.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Human Rights in Occupied Territorie
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:42:23 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <4182@bimacs.BITNET> rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny
Rothenberg) writes:

>Perhaps Leah Tsemel should give up her Israeli citizenship, which
>grants her all these (too many) privileges and take out Palestinian
>refugee papers.
>
It seemed that Danny accept the racist assumption that just gentils
has the privilage for  criminal anti Semite activity. I see no reason
why that bad Leah Tsemel will have a right to do  her bad activity
while being in one of the palaces of the PLO leaders at Beiruth or Algier
(refugies camps)  and why she may not enjoy the same right  while
being an Israeli citizen.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: The Ugly Palestinian
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 07:50:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.034830.7370@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>	If Hanan Aswari is the Good Palestinian,
>	and Ahhmed Jebril is the Bad Palestinian,
>	can you guess who Yassar Arafat is?
I assume Shamir looks better?
We have to admit, the best looking is King Husain's wife, Noor. She's
noor (light) alright. Shamir would be next after Noor. 

>pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA
							^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
							Glad you've survived
							H. Andrew.  He's less
							bad than Shamir on
							the Palestinian
							concentration camps.
							Alot in common
							between Shamir
							and H. Andrew.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:19:52 GMT

In article <25734@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.162657.5262@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>=>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>=>However, I'll answer the question I think you were asking, which is
>=>"Does a convert, or the decendant of one, have rights under the law of
>=>return?" 

>Right, that's what I meant! ;-)

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

>=>Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
>=>Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
>=>persecuted for their "Jewishness."

>So, in this sense, Israel is not a "physical" homeland but a place of
>refuge, right?

However, that should not be taken to imply that that is its only
purpose, or that that is the only reason for Israel to exist.


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 01:53:10 GMT

In article 2121@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.083454.16699@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># In article 2298@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
># >In article <1992Sep8.032516.13425@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
># >(of course, they would have a lot of explaining
># >to do for how they grew to today's numbers, similar to how the number
># >of people who were at Don Larsen's perfect World Series game is now in
># >the millions).
> 
># It is quite well understood.  The vast improvement in living conditions
># and public health that occurred during the period 1880-1930 meant that
># the high infant mortality rate fell and the life expectancy grew.
>
>	Gee, I wonder what lead to the increase in living conditions and
>public health.  It was European standrards, but I would just love for
>you to claim it was via missionaries.

Basically, it was the economic conditions and agrarian reforms brought 
about by the Ottoman and British administrations, from what I've read.
Another important factor was the sudden cessation of military conscription
(Moslems only, btw) when the Ottomans were kicked out; it created quite
a baby boom.  The influx of European knowledge and capital due to Jewish 
immigration also played a part but there is little evidence it was 
significant before about 1930.  I don't know about missionaries.

># Meanwhile, the exceptional birth rate (more than 7 births per woman)
># continued.  Claims that the observed rate of increase was impossible
># were destroyed when Israeli Arabs displayed an even greater rate of
># increase during the 1950s.
>
>	The number of births is not at issue.  I would be willing to bet
>that prior to the 1880's it was even greater (increases in health and
>living conditions, which even you admit took place, lead to fewer
>pregnancies, not more).  It is survival that matters not conceptions.

The combination of high birth rates and high death rates makes a 
population fluctuate very rapidly when conditions change.

>	A more apt comparison would be to the liberated territories since
>1967.  I wonder why Arabists such as yourself never use these
>numbers in such discussions.  The answer is fairly logical.

From (imperfect) memory, the book by Dov Friedlander contains data on
that.  Why don't you look it up for us.  By the way, according to my
dictionary, an "Arabist" is "an authority on Arabia and the Arabs or
on the Arabic language and literature".   Thanks for the compliment,
but I don't deserve it.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.


 



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:56:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.024550.2482136@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.143943.11216@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>>>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>>>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?
>>
>>  I would also like to ask a related question:
>>
>>  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
>>and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
>>this logical?
>
>"To emigrate" is is not the problem.   It gives you the right to
>steal the native's land, home, horse, and cow; that is in addition to 
>the right of killing him and his children.
>
>
>P.S. these issues have been discussed on this newsgroup where none
>of the israel-establishment supporters gave a logical answer.

Neither have you.  However, I do believe that this question was answered
by a pro-Israeli.

Manu

>
>jle
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
  Arabs"     -Sir John Bagot Glubb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast