HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Finne and finl{ndare (Re: Where is Norway?)
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<MJH.92Aug10170019@stekt.oulu.fi> <1992Aug11.053449.14769@jyu.fi>
	<urf.713526945@sw2001>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:23:33 GMT

In article <urf.713526945@sw2001> urf@icl.se (Urban) writes:

   >Now, we have the same problem with Russia. We can't call the citizens
   >"Ryssar", as many of them aren't Russians at all. Instead the word
   >is (or will likely be) "Ryssl{ndarna", denoting citizenship, but not
   >ethnic group.

   I guess we can't speak of "svenskarna" either then, since many
Swedish citizens belong to non-Swedish "ethnic groups"?

   >Even if there are no Finnish Swedes on the ice-hockey team, they
   >represent the 10% Finnish citizens who are _not_ "finnar"; thus
   >"finl{ndare".

  But this is completely circular. Why are they not finnar? They used
to be: when and why did this designation come to be perceived as
improper or unsuitable?

   In many contexts there is good reason to distinguish between
different ethnic groups within a country. In many other contexts there
is no reason to do so. To put down as a general principle that
"rysslandare" must be used instead of "ryssar" if the reference is to
the entire population of Russia would be just as silly as stipulating
that one must never say "svenskarna" when referring to the entire
population of Sweden.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE
Organization: Konrad Zuse-Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:56:22 GMT

I posed a question to Jan Arne Fagertun:

>Jan Arne Fagertun has some interesting propositions:
>
>That the unemployed in the Western countries
>can be employed to aid the starving millions in Africa
>[... some unsuccessful examples ...]
>What I mean to say is that most of these wonderful concepts don't work.
>But maybe Jan Arne Fagertun has a viable suggestion.

He answered in <1992Aug21.064801.2538@ugle.unit.no>:

>I agree, most of these wonderful concepts don't work - BUT that's not
>because the idea is bad, it's because the (stupid) economical/political
>system is not capable or willing to handle these problems. Read your
>own article once more, and see what you wrote.

You're right, that's exactly what I wrote:
that the economical/political system 
is not capable or willing to handle these problems.
You also wrote that the system is stupid.
Well, do you have any better suggestions
how to put your idea to work?
(I do not imply that the idea is bad. 
It's interesting, but probably it does not work.)

Mechthild Stoer
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:50:00 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug13.190032.3200@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.161430.1619@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
>>Were the runes ever used on paper or similar material (perhaps in
>>Dalarna), i.e. written with something like a pen?  If so, did that
>>contribute to the development of the glyphs, and how?
>
>No, not to my knowledge, except maybe in Dalarna in the end.

	Actually, there is a book "Codex Runicus" written with pen and ink
in runes.  I can't recall the date or other information on it offhand but I
believe it is a law code.
	The Icelandic character "thorn" was adopted from runes, and runes
were often used as abbreviations for the words they were named after (for
example, the m-rune could stand for "man").  Though that doesn't count in
the same way that the Codex Runicus does.

>Bureus tried to design a futhark-style suitable for
>handwriting with pen and ink, but I don't think it were ever used.

	I recall reading in E.V. Gordon's Introduction to Old Norse how he
considered it too bad that the Scandinavians hadn't developed a miniscule
based on runes.  With that in mind, I made one up myself.  Obviously I
can't post it on the net though :(

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<1992Aug12.150207.9282@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:34:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.150207.9282@exu.ericsson.se> ebuhwe@ebu.ericsson.se
 writes:

  >What? It really upsets me when someone from the (internationally speaking)
  >small village of Stockholm thinks all other cities in Sweden are
  >"countryside".

  So Fredrik Ostman bagged one at least...
From: ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: News of Lion in Finland
Date: 23 Aug 92 07:16:14 GMT
Organization: Computer Resources International A/S

ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>In article <0095F528.00310FC0@vax.nott.ac.uk> cczjtw@vax.nott.ac.uk (John Whitehorn) writes:
>>I've been away from my terminal for a month. Before I left there was a
>>lot of talk on this newsgroup about a Lion in Finland, was it ever 
>>found?
>>	John Whitehorn

>It was never found and propably never seen. It was just for filling other-
>wise poor news flow as usually during the holiday times.
>The next bigger news from Finland coming abroad will be around Christmas,
>Santa Claus will be seen somewhere live.

...with the lion in leash :-)

>Jarmo

Long Haired Nick
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:46:53 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug20.100850.25723@cs.joensuu.fi>, hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
|> 
|> Have you considered the possibility that 'the millions of people in
|> Africa' are starving because the African governments are finding more
|> urgent needs for their funds than to buy food for their citizens, like
|> the government of Namibia who recently bought a private airplane,
|> worth over US$ 25 million, for the president?
|> 
|> If I remember correctly, this caused the governments of Sweden and
|> Norway (but NOT Finland) to stop their 'emergency aid' to Namibia.
|> 


You could find lots of examples during the history. The worst is
probably the western countries exploitation during a very long time.
Now the African countries are stuck - the international community
forces them to pay huge amount of money (loans and interests).


|> 
|> >Poor mathematics - you still avoid defining the need !
|> 
|> What is the definition of 'need' you want to hear? (-:
|> Who defines it? The all-knowing government?
|> 


My point is that you mix the words "need" and "afford".

Of course there are millions of people needing food and water, but they
can't afford buying it. According to your "definition" they don't need
it !


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:13:21 GMT

tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
>I don't think that soc.culture.nordic 
>is the right place for a gigantic general socialism/communism vs. 
>capitalism/liberalism debate

Right.

>There is ample evidence that planned, fully state controlled, economies 
>don't work! This means that socialism on a general level, whether 
>marxistic, leninistic, stalinistic, maoistic or secteristic, simply
>doesn't work! (At least not the way the proponents claim.)

There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
"mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: csa18@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R.J. Husmo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:10:59 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

In article <lattwitz.2.714217432@let.rug.nl>, lattwitz@let.rug.nl (K. Lattewitz) writes:
> 
> Kirsti/Kirsten
> Navnedag 13/11
> Nordisk form av Kristine, som betyr "kristen". Allment navn i Norge siden 
> 1700-tallet.
> Kirsti/Kirsten star for trygghet. Rolig, stabil og med en uendelig 
> talmodighet blir hun krumtappen i alle familier. Men om hun noen gang blir 
> sint, da rister jorden i sine grunnvoller.
> 
(The above is Norwegian)
 
(I tried to email you, but the mail bounced - and our email expert is away
on holiday.)

Kirsti/Kirsten
Nameday 13 Nov
Nordic form for Kristine, which means 'Christian' (i.e. religious - not the
name). Common name in Norway since the 16th century.
Kirsti/Kirsten stands for safety. Quiet, stable and with an infinite
patience she'll be the cornerstone of any family. But if she ever gets
angry, the earth itself will start to shake.

Exactly what 'nameday' means I don't really know. Probably a remnant from
a belief that each deity/saint had their own day or some such.

Reidar
--
Correct spelling is a lossed art.   |Hagar: So if people ask you, tell them
Skydivers have more fun than people.|              you're a viking.
------------------------------------|Frode: And a Norwegian?
radar@cs.kl.ac.uk                   |Hagar: Nah. That might sound like bragging.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 15:57:21 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug12.225731.18241@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>Hmm... maybe I was a bit careless about the dating of the new futhark.
>Sometime during the 8th century might be more correct. Anyway, maybe the
>best evidence that it wasn't evolved, but rather invented is the famous
>stone at the church in R|k's parish, "R|kstenen", in Sweden.

	Ah yes.  The head of my department here at Harvard has been trying
to convince me to write my thesis on R|kstenen.

>Maybe the futhark just evolved freely without control among the common
>people after the introduction of the Christian religion, or maybe they
>just thought the more ornate style looked better on monuments; the custom
>to raise stones came into fashion in Sweden in the 11th century, and the
>number of stones "exploded", sort of. (At the same time a very simplified
>type of runes evolved, but it wasn't att all suited for carving in stone,
>but probably quite efficient for fast carving in wood with a short knife.)

	Oh yes - what are they called?  Kortkvistarunor or something like
that (not a word they taught me in my conversational Swedish classes I'm
afraid!).
	Is there any evidence that the elder 24 character futhark was drawn
on during the later period of expansion of the 16 character futhark to the
medieval futharks?

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: u-lchoqu%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette)
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:54:51 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Aug12.201740.27510@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE
(Anders Andersson) writes:
 > I suppose Finnish provinces all have their coats of arms, just
 > like their Swedish counterparts?

Certainly.  What else would they put on beer labels, e.g., Karjala?  :-)

 > Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University

OK, just take a quick walk up to Uppsala domkyrkan, and go look at the big
tomb of Gustav Vasa, or whatever his name was.  You can see the coats of arms
of both Swedish and Finnish provinces around the base of the sarcophagus, with
the Swedish names, of course, like Tavastland.  After all, Mr. Vasa did claim
to be king of those provinces.
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . Lee Choquette . . . . . . . . . Born a tavastl{nning  . . . . . .
  . . u-lchoqu@peruvian.utah.edu. . . . (not to mention finl{ndare) . . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: haavardf@gluon.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng)
Subject: Re: Commonplace Dishonor, Followed by Commonplace Confusion
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
	<1992Aug11.193017.3946@dscomsf.desy.de>
	<1992Aug12.040754.27948@morrow.stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:58:06 GMT

"Lapp" is - or rather, was - another word for the sami. The term is not 
used anymore in Norway.

The sami are culturally distinct from Finns, and have been so for all of
recorded history. They originally inhabited more or less all of Scandinavia,
but were pushed aside by people coming in from the south. Sami language
is related to Finnish, but the two are not mutually understandable.
 Politics towards them have - at least in Norway - varied from relative 
tolerance to heavy-handed assimilation policies. Today there is about 
40 000 (unless i remember wrong), 20 000 in  Norway.


H}vard Fosseng
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:48:01 GMT

In article <3O95HCJ@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de>, bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer) writes:
|> 
|> Jan Arne Fagertun has some interesting propositions:
|> 
|> That the unemployed in the Western countries
|> can be employed to aid the starving millions in Africa:
|> 
|> >The difference is that these products are NOT unnecessary. Milllions
|> >and millions of people are starving to death in Africa nowadays, so
|> >I'm chocked to see that the western economical/political systems can
|> >just waste the production capacity of millions of people, instead of
|> >using it to aid.
|> (Some posting of which I don't know the number.)
|> 
|> What is this aid is supposed to look like,
|> and who should pay for it?
|> 
|> An example from the European Community:
|> They sold beef cheaply to some Western African country.
|> With this they got rid of their overload of beef
|> and thought they did a good deed.
|> It had the effect that the cattle-raisers in this country lost their jobs, 
|> because they were not able to compete with the subsidized beef from EC.
|> It would really have been such a nice concept...
|> 
|> Or an example from Eastern Germany:
|> The farming machine industry knows very well that their machines
|> are needed in Russia. These machines were previously sold to Russia.
|> But the Russians simply can't pay.
|> And our government is not able to keep this industry alive
|> until the Russians and Ukrainians can pay.
|> It would really be nice and helpful for both sides...
|> 
|> What I mean to say is that most of these wonderful concepts don't work.
|> But maybe Jan Arne Fagertun has a viable suggestion.
|> 
|> Mechthild Stoer
|> 
--


I agree, most of these wonderful concepts don't work - BUT that's not
because the idea is bad, it's because the (stupid) economical/political
system is not capable or willing to handle these problems. Read your
own article once more, and see what you wrote.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: zheng@viikki.Helsinki.FI (ZHENG HUANQUAN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Origin of "Suomi" (was Re: Another Finnish Question)
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:42:38 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Fac.Agric.For.

In article <1992Aug11.085905.12862@funet.fi> hmj@cs.tut.fi (J{rvinen Hannu-Matti) writes:

>In article <1992Aug5.105714.14440@husc3.harvard.edu> magliano@husc10.harvard.edu (Marcia Magliano) writes:
>>
>>      Another question about, well, the language and the name.
>>From where does the name Finland  originate?  Why doesn't English
>>use a name more like Suomi?  Do other languages use a name closer to
>>the Finnish name for Finland?  Where does the name Suomi originate?

>Several responses have given explanation for the name Finland. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hei,
In English, suomi is called as Finland, because "fin" means end, for 
example,"fine" is "very good", final and so on, so, finland is meant as a 
end of land(world)in english, and some Frences also told me that.
is it right?   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:54:23 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
>|> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:

>|> Businesses' problem is not to feed their workers, their problem is
>|> to make money to their owners.

>Correct. But doesn't the society (where this discussion started) have
>further needs/obligations than this ?

Yes. Society has a need to see that these people get themselves a job.
Therefore, it shouldn't hinder, with taxes on finances and companies
and their owners, comprehensive labour legislation, and compulsory 
administrative tasks, an entrepreneur to start a new business taking 
advantage of the cheap labor available.

>|> What's the different between paying people for unemployment and paying
>|> them for manufacturing products nobody wants to buy?
>Do really nobody want the products ? Isn't what you write above just a
>tricky way to say "products nobody can afford to buy" ?

So, what's the difference!?

>Ask old people if they consider Russia to be a better society to live
>in now !

What use would it be? Don't you think these 70 years have left any
traces? Why don't you ask e.g. Vaclav Klaus if he wants to import
some socialism from the West! I think it's outrageous to use the
situation in Russia today as an argument for socialism. A whole
people has been bereft all their hope, all their money, all their
faith and social and economic abilities, and you say: "Look how
horrible capitalism is!" It's cynic in the words worst sense.

>I could, of course, answer your remark about Russia by pointing to a
>lot of anti-"communist" countries in Asia and South America (maybe even
>to parts of God's own ...), but I think this kind of discussion will be
>a little too stupid.

I'm glad you realised that would be stupid.

>|> We could send all the unemployed as "refugees" to some country stupid
>|> enough to let them in. Anyone? 400 000 Finns are waiting in line. (-:

>Have you really got 400000 refugees and immigrants during the last 10
>years or so ?
>I mean, since the problem is the refugees and the immigrants taking the
>jobs from the finns ....

No, no, no, no. This is irony. It's a drift with the people who claim
society should "take care" of all the poor, poor people like unemployed
and refugees. There is obviously a lot of hypocrisy involved, since
millions and millions of people on earth are unemployed or potential
refugees. Either you have a nationalist viewpoint, and then other
countries solve their problems by kicking them out to other countries,
or you have a global viewpoint, and then, how can you say no?

In Sweden we know that the system for insuring the unemployed
we have doesn't work once it is put to use. After six months the money
is spent, and unemployment is only rising. So much for that system.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Date: 17 Aug 92 07:19:44 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug15.005030.1@abo.fi>, jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes:
|> 
|> Maybe I could. The unemployed are educated and they have the hope of getting a
|> decent job in some day - the old people have paid a part of their income so 
|> that they'd be taken care of when they're old. Workers also pay taxes to get 
|> their kids educated and tto be workers themselves. The sick are taken care 
|> of to make people feel secure - to convince that they have nothing to be 
|> afraid of when they get sick themselves. They all pay for their living or 
|> have paid it at their time and it is called the social security. Now those 
|> who come here as refugees seldom do that. This is no question of humanity - 
|> just the straight facts that make the society to work. 
|>  
|> Humanity is another thing. People feel that it's not nice to see other people 
|> "starving to death", so to say. That makes some to open the borders to
|> anyone willing to come, but in the long term it won't work. Those who 
|> work hard to make their living start to wonder why do they put so much 
|> effort on work and give the money away to someone who has done and for a 
|> long time will not do nothing for it. 
|>  
|> Was this a racial explanation? Am I a racist?
|>  
|> Greetings, 
|>  
|> Jouni
--


I can't see you're a racist from what you write above :-)

But I think you're forgetting something :
The majority of the immigrants want to have a job!
If you look at the so-called "low-status" jobs, you will even find an
over-representation of immigrants there.

Of course you'll find immigrants who don't want to work - I know many
norwegians who don't want to, too.

And I'm sure you will find many immigrant who don't fit into the
norwegian (or the finnish) jobs - that's often because they're grown up
in another culture and class society than we usually find (at lest) in
Norway.

But why not make jobs for all norwegians (or finns/finlendere :-), AND
the refugees/immigrants ?
Why not make an economical and political system which can take care of
these things ? (Yes, I am a socialist/communist - oops, now I'll never
be allowed to visit some big country - damned ! :-)


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic