HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Carbon-14
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:34:35 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)

In article <LERNER.92Jul27212841@division.cs.columbia.edu>, lerner@cs (Michah Lerner) writes:
>   PLEASE, DO ME THE COURTESY OF NOT CLAIMING THAT CARBON 14 DATING AND THE
>   LIKE IS A "DIRECT OBSERVATION".  HOW MANY PIECES OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT 
>   ARE IN USE IN  A C14 DATING OR THE OTHER PURPORTED "DIRECT OBSERVATIONS"
>   WHICH ESTABLISH?  IT IS A DERIVED CALCULATION,  NOT A DIRECT OBSERVATION.
>   WERE YOU THERE WITH A NOTEBOOK?  

It's one notch less direct than observing the moon, one more notch direct
than observing Pluto's orbit or Jupiter's rings.

I've only once met an Orthodox Jew who was sincere in his rejection of
modern biology, geology, astronomy, physics on their own terms.  He
didn't believe in any of them.  In fact, he wasn't sure that the earth
even had a shape.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: THE ORAL LAW.
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:06:41 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul22.025953.17807@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:

>- To what extent do we pasken from the 13 principles?

>- What is the Halachic role of the 13 principles?

Here we sort of get into the area of "halacha of belief", which
whether there are mitzvot to believe things, or whether this is an
assumption that preceeds the mitzvot is a subject that Jewish
philosophers differ about.  And also the philosophy behind the various
lists of 613 mitzvot and why the compiler chose to include or exclude
belief.

I think everyone realizes that there is a difference between saying
"you must eat in a sukkah" and "you must believe in X" in that someone
who doesn't want to eat in the sukkah can do so anyway, but someone who
doesn't believe in X can't force himself or herself to do so (but it's
possible to say "I believe" even if one doesn't).

I don't know of any halachic discussion of the 13 principles (that
doesn't mean that there aren't), e.g. "one who does not believe in all
13 may not serve as a witness" or something like that.  On the other
hand, within O, I think that no one would dispute any of them,
although they might disagree about just what they mean.  Of course not
all of the disagreements between O and other movements are found in
the 13 principles - there are other matters of disagreement as well.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided apple.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:58:26 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)

In article <9207311656.AA03177@robocop.NYU.EDU>, baker@ROBOCOP (Jonathan Baker) writes:
>I really don't see what great differences there are.  We all follow the same
>Shulchan Aruch as best we can, with the possible exception of the Lubavitchers,
>who follow Shulchan Aruch HaRav.

Some told me they *don't* follow it.  That's what they recommend for others.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 13:41:16 GMT

eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>Indeed, my neighbor doesn't go to synagogue because, she says, they
>charge too much.  Especially on high holy days.

>This is in contrast to most Christian churches, which are supported by
>voluntary contributions.

To item 1: this is why one should always check  the Synagogue BEFORE taking
a home, rather than afterwards. I personally could probably not pray (not for
financial reasons) in a place that would eject a Jew who did not pay ( I did
not write COULD not pay, because this is subjective..).

To item 2: ???? MA YNIAN SHMITA L'HAR SINAI ?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:16:58 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.191156.2437@njitgw.njit.edu>, dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul20.122424.16998@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
|> >In article <FAIGIN.92Jul16135135@soldan.aero.org>, faigin@aero.org
|> >(Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
|> >
|> >> A fundamental of Judaism is something that *all* Jews agree on. I can only
|> >> think of one of these, and it is defined by "our G-d is one". Look at
|> >> the Maimodenes 13 principles. Where is keeping kosher there? 
|> >
|> >I strongly disagree with this definition of a "fundamental of Judaism."
|> >If it takes _all_ before it is so, the probability that there exists
|> >_one_ person, born a Jew, that denies the existence of G-d undermines even
|> >that one.
|> 
|> There have been may people, born Jewish, who later deny Jewish
|> principles.  I don't think you can, therefore, consider him practicing
|> Judaism.  He is simply a person who denies his heritage, and what he
|> is.


Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix  (508) 655-3848
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 01:06:18 GMT

afwendy@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (WENDY WARTNICK) writes:

>In article <dfs.711663729@ro>, dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes...
>>In <1992Jul20.181428.2845@unixland.natick.ma.us>
>>sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

>> 
>>If someone is in a desperate situation, and is begging for help, I
>>would help that person and not ask his opinions on Jews or
>>anti-Semitism first.  Of course, there are degrees - if I happened to
>>see Hitler drowning, I'd more likely throw rocks at him than try to
>>save him.  But in the normal events of life, I believe we have an
>>obligation to help whomever we can, whether they are Jewish or not,
>>although we have a right to give Jewish people priority.

Just for the record: The above quote is David's not mine. The way Wendy
posted this, I believe some readers could have mistakenly concluded that
the above comments were posted by me.

Thank you.

Sharon 
-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Centrality of Men/Women (Was Re: Inher
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:55:00 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul22.010423.629741@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:

>In 1977 the Jewish Observer ran an article called "Mrs. Rosenberg's Yeshiva".

>Obviously, we are talking about a typical Jewish home. But, this is
>a Yeshiva in every sense of the word.

Reminds me of stories in which the gender of one of the characters is
not mentioned until the end, when the reader is supposed to be
suprized to find out that the doctor, or whatever, is a woman.  Only
this story is going in the opposite direction.

I don't know why Mrs. Rosenberg, when the kids are all going to other
Yeshivot, can't run one of her own, the kind that other folks send
their children to and that the staff gets paid to run.  And I hope
that Mr. Rosenberg realizes that what Mrs. Rosenberg does is more
important than what he does, so that he does the laundry and cooking.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow ***.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is not worried at all.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:04:41 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.140852.20546@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu
(Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>In article <1992Jul30.133845.14020@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>>>We are not supposed to help Jews first.,

>>Please cite a source for this last line (other than "blatant assertion" or
>>emotional attachment).

>My source is my experience. Like someone just told me: Charity begins at home.
>And, in my home, I am the only Jew. 

So in the words of the politically incorrect joke about the Lone Ranger
and Tonto being surrounded by Injuns, "Who's we, white man?"
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:28:03 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu


In article <1992Jul28.155317.29437@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
#>In <84588@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
#>Wiener) writes:

#>>That is certainly a lie.

#Isn't this the same nitwit who insisted that I must be lying when I
#explained that I'd been beaten up by the Williamsburg Satmers for
#not dressing according to their standards of modesty? If so, he never
#has any backing for the allegations; it's just his way of hiding his
#head in the sand -- don't bother with him, David.

A word of advice for Nora from a person whose net.memory goes back to (and
past) the halcyon days of the brahms gang's greatest activity.  Whether
the person you are referring to is Matt Wiener or not, I can say that calling
him a "nitwit" is a Big Mistake.  Old-time readers of alt.flame will agree
that I know what I'm talking about.

						Richard Schultz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rayman@cupid.uucp (25142-rayman)
Subject: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!
Reply-To: rayman@cc.bellcore.com
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 13:49:28 GMT

In article <84242@netnews.upenn.edu> rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff) writes:
>In article <92205.131410CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> CARIAN@auvm.american.edu (RABBI CHARLES ARIAN) writes:
>>If the bugs are ground up it probably makes no difference to the
>>kashrut. Only whole bugs (briah) are forbidden.
>
>This is slightly misleading.  "Briah" is one of the categories to which
>nullification by 1/60th does not apply.  Thus a pot of soup with even a single
>whole bug in it is treif, even if the pot is the size of a room.
>
>Once ground up, bugs are no longer "briah" but just ordinary treif stuff, so
>their (inadvertent) presence in quantities less than 1/60th may not make the
>overall food item treif.  Whether there is a problem depends on the details;
>presumably in the case of kosher-certified foods such as Heinz ketchup the
>details are such that the food is still kosher.
>
>Under no circumstances is it okay to blithely add ground-up bugs to food and
>assume the result is still kosher.  (I presume Rabbi Arian knows this, but his
>wording could be taken to imply that it is okay.)
>
>   Robert
>

Actually, since bugs are probably in the catagorey of "noten ta'am
lfgam" (they give a poor taste), they are probably nullified as long
as they are unnoticed.

Moshe Rayman
rayman@cc.bellcore.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 24 Jul 92 06:23:11 GMT

In <1992Jul23.192739.22976@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>The same argument might be made against afternoon Hebrew schools.
>If the only form of J. education was yeshivot, then most J. kids
>would attend, and get solid J. educations.  But now (in the US), 
>J. parents can meet their "responsibilities" by sending their kids
>for a few hours a week -- and most J. kids get very little.

Seriously?  I think that if you closed down the Hebrew School and told
the parents to send the kids to Yeshiva, they'd get Grandpa to teach
the kids how to do his Haftara, and that would be it.  This would be a
disaster.

Parents who want kids with a little bit of Jewish education (but not
too much, God forbid!), the kind that make life difficult for
educators in all streams, are not going to send their kids to Yeshiva
because the Hebrew School is closed, but they might stop going to the
shul the few times each year that they do.

I thought this analogy would be easier to talk about than OCR.
However there is a difference.  If we wanted to shoot ourselves in the
foot, we could choose to close *our* shul's Hebrew School.  We cannot
choose to close *another* shul's, let alone another shul.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very publishing house ***.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: egw@utkvx1.utk.edu (Wolpert, Edward Greenwal)
Subject: Codes?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:13:00 GMT

	I have been reading a few posts about 'Codes in the Torah.'  I'm
interested in what books/journal articles I should look for more information.
Please send suggestions to :wolpert@lead.chem.utk.edu.  Thanks...
[To be more specific, books for and against them... Hebrew or English is
fine.]

	Thanks,
	Edward Wolpert                    

wolpert@lead.chem.utk.edu
    egw@utkvx.utk.edu
    EGW@UTKVX  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:51:57 GMT

In <1992Jul24.151615.27056@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
(Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>I vaguely remember hearing about day schools in Canada years ago;
>because the public schools often taught Christian doctrine, many
>(most?) Jewish kids ended up in day schools!  (Any Canadian netters
>able to  verify?)

I would guess that a very small proportion of Canadian Jewish kids
attend Jewish day schools.  The public education system here (at least
in Ontario) is fairly reasonable, and most people are content with
afternoon Hebrew school.

Remember, a real Jewish education in North America is quite expensive.
There was an article in the NYT a while ago which showed how expensive
it is to live a "full" Jewish life in NA - ie, complete adherence to
Kashrut, sending kids to Jewish schools and Jewish camps, belonging to
a Shul, participating in the community, etc. - and concluded that most
Jews can't afford it.

I grew up in St. John's, Newfoundland, where there were probably 20
Jewish kids in the whole city.  We were lucky to get a rabbi to come,
let alone hope for a day school.  ("Looxury, me son... " :-))
Ironically, I think that being the only Jewish kid for miles probably
strengthened my Jewish identity and commitment rather than weakening
it.  I guess different people react in different ways.

>Consider two communities.  One has  _only_ a day-school (no
>watered down 3-hour per week stuff).  Of  100 kids,  fifty attend
>the day school, and 40 remain "true to the faith."

Seriously, you expect 50% of a Jewish community to send their kids to
a Jewish day school?  When free education is available in the public
system?  For me, it's a matter of economics, and to a certain extent,
principle.  I would hesitate to send my kids (if and when I have any)
to a Jewish day school because I want them to have contact with other
people of different races and religions.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:59:18 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University

In <1992Jul26.224125.28941@talon.ucs.orst.edu> daver@ECE.ORST.EDU
(Dave Rabinowitz) writes:

>I have a Jewish friend who refuses to join the local Jewish community because
>she is opposed to membership dues.

Right.  Let me clarify: While most synagogues will ask for membership
dues, it is not necessary to be a member to attend services.  For High
Holy day services, priority will be given to members, but I have never
been turned away from any service because I was not a member.

If you *are* a member, you get certain "perks" like being able to vote
at board meetings, free or cheaper use of the social hall for
weddings, etc.  But that's only reasonable.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:52:50 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul22.210354.11325@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.175727.28690@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu  

>> If a person denies the existance of Jesus, he really can't call
>> himself a Christian, can he?
>> 
>> There are certain things at the core of every movement.  One can not
>> deny them and still be one with the movement.
>
>Then, you are reducing Judaism to a simple religion. We might need to  
>change soc.culture.jewish to talk.religion.jewish.
>Anyway, Judaism is both, a culture and a religion.
>Which are the Jewish principles to practice to be part of the Jewish  
>culture if you are a secular Jew?

Not at all.  One of the things at the core of Judaism is that if
you're born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew.  There are other
principles (namely the 613 mitzvot) which are also essential.  If you
deny the mitzvot, you don't cease being Jewish, but you certainly stop
practicing Judaism.

It's part of the duality here.  Your Jewish identity is hereditary (or
via conversion), but your practice of Judaism is certainly dependant
on whether or not you observe the mitzvot.



-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:03:54 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.175727.28690@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu  
(David Charlap) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.031658.8291@access.usask.ca> choy@skorpio.usask.ca  
(I am a terminator.) writes:
> 
> >Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
> >born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
> 
> If he wants to consider himself a cannibal, he certainly must practice
> cannibalism, mustn't he?  
> 
> If a person denies the existance of Jesus, he really can't call
> himself a Christian, can he?
> 
> There are certain things at the core of every movement.  One can not
> deny them and still be one with the movement.
> 

Then, you are reducing Judaism to a simple religion. We might need to  
change soc.culture.jewish to talk.religion.jewish.
Anyway, Judaism is both, a culture and a religion.
Which are the Jewish principles to practice to be part of the Jewish  
culture if you are a secular Jew?


> 
> -- 
>    |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
>   /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
>  ((|,)
>   ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.

AAP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Av Frydman)
Subject: Re: Hebrew vocabulary cards and sunday school teaching
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:37:49 GMT


>In article <1992Jul22.103120.8849@uoft02.utoledo.edu> wfraker@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>->I visited a family in Pittsburgh quite awhile ago, and while
>->I was there they showed me a set of Hebrew vocabulary cards. There
>->was at least 300 in the set. I've looked all over and can only
>->find the same type of cards for Russian, German, French and Spanish.
>->Does anyone know where I could get a set in Hebrew?


I bought a set at the Israel Book Shop in Brookline, MA.
Call them at (617) 566-7113, they'll ship it to you.  





Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:04:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.123835.26959@tudorct.com> shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>
>How do mohels get their first gigs?  I had heard that they practice on
>stillborns, but even so, a real live kicking baby is probably a different
>experience.
>
>Has anybody ever been told when arranging for a mohel "Uh.  I'm new to
>this so you get a special rate."?  Or something similar?. 
>
>I really am curious.
>
>-- 
>Dan Shimoff               Am Yisrael          \ 

When my eldest son was born, our upstairs neighbor offered to do
the bris.  He had trained for several years and had "assisted".
However, he said that he would rather do it in the bedroom rather
than in the room with everyone there because it was his first solo.

We thanked him politely, but got someone else.  Since that time, he
wound up doing quite a number (He should be in the thousands by
now).

He wasn't insulted and joined us in our simcha.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sbradley@scic.intel.com (Seth Bradley)
Subject: Spelling of Hebrew Word Sought
Organization: Intel SCIC, Beaverton, OR
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:59:42 GMT

Please excuse the vagueness of this question :-).  A friend wants
the proper English spelling of a Hebrew word that sounds something
like "mishigatz", and means something like a mixed bag, or a 
little of everything.  Please e-mail.  Thanks in advance!
-- 
Seth J. Bradley
Internet: sbradley@scic.intel.com   UUCP: uunet!scic.intel.com!sbradley
----------------------------------------
"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish