HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: A sensible response from Catwoman!
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 07:19:47 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: clear thinking
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <1992Nov6.032549.19539@wetware.com> diana@wetware.com (CatWoman ) writes:

>I agree with wat and Kok-Yung are saying.  I am secure
>enough in myself to know that the PICTURES of women on
>a calendar are no more meaningful than the pictures of
>cats I have on MY calendars.  Yes - I'd like more cats,

Holy Toledo, Batman! Catwoman makes *more* sense than a whole
lecture hall of PC-thinkers combined! Wow! What a revelation!

>THIS has been my attitude - If I'm not that comfortable
>with what <other person> has up, I can choose a couple
>of options.  I can not look at it, if it is a situation
>where that is possible; or if I am "forced" to look at
>it due to it's placement - I can put up something next
>to it that *I* want to see (and granted, I'll try to 
>find something that will equally be disturbing to the
>other person).  Then the ball is in THEIR court.  If 
>they object - so will I.  If they don't, then I won't
>either.

>Diana

Methinks Diana deserves a hearty round of applause for her most


************************ A P P L A U S E ***********************

sensible and balanced treatment of the issues here! Such clarity
of thought is indeed rare, and I salute *Catwoman* for being so
forthright as to declare her fundamental sense of security and
self-esteem and avoiding the trap of muddleheaded PC thinking,
wherein various conspiracy theories are bandied about with the
flimsiest sort of empirical evidence...if there's any at all!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Most of what I've seen in this debate is ill-informed opinion and
poor judgment clouded by all kinds of emotional and psychological
excess baggage. We can quote all the "statistics" we want to, but
let me remind all, statistical evidence does not meet the most
rigorous demands for demonstrating ANY kind of causality...

So to all the pathological other-blamers out there, next time you
point a finger at someone, remember, THREE fingers point at you!

If *I* had an eating disorder, it's not because some model or
some art director or some magazine editor or some manipulative
sexist capitalist leech made me the way I am. I'd get real and
get professional help instead of blaming people who don't even
know that *I* exist. If *I* decide to buy into the advertising
hype, that's still *my* decision, and *I* can't blame others if
I'm weak-willed or susceptible to persuasion, right? Laying the
blame on some "system" or some "conspiracy" smacks of a certain
type of moral vacancy and mental vacuity that afflicts so many in
the name of Political Correctness, the be-all and end-all of this
contemporary aberration we call modern critical thought. Sheesh!


Victor 8^)

(funny, there was food on my plate a minute ago.....hmmmm)

*snicker* (not the candy)
From: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Re: Info on Barbie Benton wanted
Date: 4 Nov 92 17:53:30 GMT
Reply-To: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation

In article <Bx3x2D.Jt7@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, drumhell@claudette.nrl.navy.mil 
(David Drumheller) writes:
>    Barbie Benton was a playboy centerfold back in the 
> late 1960's or early 1970's. 

Correction: she's appeared in Playboy, but not in the centerfold.

Terry Carroll - tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com - 408/992-2152
The opinions presented above are not necessarily those of a sound mind.
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan)
Subject: Re: Madchen Amick
Organization: Organised?  Here?  Hahahahahahahaha.....
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:12:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov04.204353.19513@rose.com> colin.buckley@rose.com (colin buckley) writes:
>I see Cindy and Richard are on the cover of Vogue talking about marriage among
>other things.  Any mention of those lingering "homosexual rumours?"  Has either
>of them spoken publicly about it?  Are they even aware?

Ummm...they're ALREADY married and have been for some time now (even prior to
the Vogue spread.)



--
===============================================================================
Kok-Yong Tan, 			  	| My words are my own: 
Fixed Income Analytics Group, 	  	| My bosses know naught.
Merrill Lynch,			  	| Wherever they're sown,
World Financial Center, North Tower, 	| Just I should be sought.
New York, NY 10281-1315.	  	|		- K. Y. Tan, 5 Feb 1992
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
InterNet: kytan@fia.dmg.ml.com (Merrill Lynch)
	  75046.256@compuserve.com (CompuServe)
===============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Back to our regularly scheduled program!
Summary: Planning and styling shoots
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 06:02:58 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: unusual pictures
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <1doqh9INNg8v@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> Bill.Clint writes:

>In article 29018@acs.ucalgary.ca, panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio) writes:

(much irrelevant drivel posted by inebriated photographer deleted)

>WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT? 

>This is alt.supermodels, right?

(turns beet red)

Oops. I forgot! I got into a knee-jerk loop caused by a whiff of
the PC virus in this group...sorry, folks, it was the Scotch....

Anyway, tomorrow I'm going to have full day shooting. Four kids
at 10:30, a very pretty model friend at 1:30, and then a fashion
show with up to twenty different models at 9:30. Whew! Oh, and I
have to demo a piece of interactive database software at five...

I was just speaking with the mom and grandma of my *favorite*
six-foot tall fifteen-year old, and they agreed that she's too
young to go to New York by herself, even if Elite wants to test
her, so the plan is to have her mom accompany her for her first
real New York outing. She has two years to grow into a much more
street-smart and sophisticated young lady, and I think she has a
real chance at being signed by Elite -- why else do you think I
have been photographing her like crazy, and trying to get several
makeup artists and hairstylists to create different looks for
her? I only hope whoever's doing her hair and makeup for the show
tomorrow will do a fantastic job -- she deserves the best.

One of you out there reading this group has already received a
snapshot of her...yes, the shot with the intense gaze and the
pouty lips, half-eaten sandwich in hand...glad to know that you
agree with my assessment of her potential. At least I know I'm
not just dreaming all this...

Cheers to all who need cheering up!

Victor 8^)
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1605 soc.women:19122 alt.feminism:3989 soc.men:18911
From: tyger@netcom.com (Kristen Kohlbecker)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 9 Nov 92 00:25:18 GMT
Organization: I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!

barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>fletcher@rtf.bt.co.uk (Catherine Fletcher) writes:
>
>>By the way, anyone who has the slightest grasp of what sexism is and doesn't
>>understand why an Elle calendar is offensive and harmful and a Chippendales
>>calendar isn't probably has no aptitude for complex thought - therefore I
>>am resorting to condescending insult rather than reasoned explanation.
>
>	Funny, I was thinking the same thing about anyone who thinks
>there _is_ a difference.

Thank you Ken...it needed to be said.

>						Kayembee

Tyger

-- 
      Kristen Kohlbecker    And I would choose to be with you
      tyger@netcom.com      That's if the choice were mine to make   
                            But you can make decisions too
      A Tyger and a Lady    And you can have this heart to break 
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: 891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 07:04:34 GMT

perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez) writes:

|In article <1992Nov8.190743.8606@dragon.acadiau.ca> 891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk) writes:
|>lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
|>
|>>In article <1992Nov7.171259.13356@dragon.acadiau.ca> 891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk) writes:
|>>They are adults!  They can make their own decisions without any hassle from
|>>you or me, I'm sure.
|>
|>I'm an adult. Why can I not choose to live in a world absent of advertising?
|>I am not able to make that choice without receding into a cave. 

|Hmm, *I'd* like to live in a world where food and clothing grows on untended
|trees, and where houses grow themselves. I can't choose such a world at all.

Do you *REALLY* equate this necessary survival list with my desire for a
choice over what kind of images I am forced to see every day? I'll bet
that if you were not given the opportunity to vote you would sit
apathetically in your chair and figure that's just the lot you've been
dealt. 

|You have all this to thank for a life expectancy >60 years. Count your
|blessings.
By this am I correct to take the connotation of this as, "sit back
and keep your mouth shut"? 
Count your own so-called Blessings. 

|That which is necessary is never evil. If an evil seems necessary, look
|to your context; that's where its root lies.

That which we are conditioned to believe is necessary prevents from seeing
and feeling what is truly necessary. The conditioners are evil.

trish

.'.'.''''.'.....'.'.'.''''.....'''..''"'..,',''''"......'.''.['".'`'`."']
"Walk out of any doorway, feel your way, feel your way like the day before.
Maybe you'll find direction, around some corner where it's been waiting to
meet you. What do you want me to do, to watch for you while you are sleeping?
Then please don't be surprised when you find me dreaming too." Box of Rain
.............................................................................
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: diana@wetware.com (CatWoman )
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Castle WetWare MouseCatcher
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:25:49 GMT

kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan) writes:
] rji@tuck.cs.nott.ac.uk (Rob Ingram) writes:
]williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:
]|> 	She went on to say that she really disliked supermodels and what
]|> they do since all guys expect the women in their lives to look like
]|> the super models.  I don't feel this is the case with me or most guys
]|> I know, but hey, she knows it to be true because she is insecure about
]|> her looks and it has to be all these media pictures' fault and therefore
]|> the women who are in them and the men who buy them.  I am then held
]|> responsible for her insecurity and her behaviour.
]It may be true that you don't expect the women in your life to look like
]supermodels but doesn't the fact that you have that calender suggest that
]at least some part of you would really like it to be that way? 
]I think it is a mistake to dismiss so flippantly the large problems in
]society that this woman was attempting to highlight.
]
] 			   Rob Ingram
] 			   University of Nottingham
] 
] I disagree.  Whether the possession of calendar featuring a supermodel (or
] anything else) suggests that someone would like all females to be like that is
] not the point.  If any woman blames others for her insecurities, then it is
] totally HER problem.  I have met women like this who like to impose their
] values upon me and I resent it (as I suspect many men do.)  

{Probably way too much left in for context}

I agree with wat and Kok-Yung are saying.  I am secure
enough in myself to know that the PICTURES of women on
a calendar are no more meaningful than the pictures of
cats I have on MY calendars.  Yes - I'd like more cats,
but reality dictates that I will just look at the pictures,
and enjoy the cats I DO have.

When I had a job where my male supervisor put up a 
Penthouse Calendar, I thought about it for a while.
I was not offended by it, but I WAS vaguely disturbed.
When I realized what I was disturbed by - that as a
straight woman I had no interest in the calendar - I
rectified the situation by going out and getting a
Playgirl Calendar, and hung it next to the Penthouse
one.  We traded snide remarks for a day or two - but
the calendars - both of them - stayed up for the full
year.  

THIS has been my attitude - If I'm not that comfortable
with what <other person> has up, I can choose a couple
of options.  I can not look at it, if it is a situation
where that is possible; or if I am "forced" to look at
it due to it's placement - I can put up something next
to it that *I* want to see (and granted, I'll try to 
find something that will equally be disturbing to the
other person).  Then the ball is in THEIR court.  If 
they object - so will I.  If they don't, then I won't
either.

Diana
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Entry level salaries (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:02:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.200044.29801@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes...
>| >More recently, I've seen statistics that when men and women have the
>| >same level of education and experience, they earn about the same.  The
>| >only reference I have is that in the most recent salary survey taken
>| >by the MAA that I've seen (probably a year or two old), women with new
>| >PhD's in math earned more, on average, than men with new PhD's in math.
>
>nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim) writes:
>| Here are the *new* statistics (from the November 1992 issue of "Notices of 
>| the American Mathematical Society"):
>| 9-month academic salaries of people with new Ph.D.'s in mathematics:
>| (`new' means granted during the 1991/92 academic year) 
>| Median salary for men----$34,000  (interquartile range--31,000 to 36,000)
>| Median salary for women--$34,900  (interquartile range--33,000 to 37,100)
>| Note that women earn over $1.02 for each $1 earned per man.  
>| 
>| >And anybody who claims that only men can be sexist is a reincarnation
>| >of Ed Nilges.
>
>"Experience" and "education" actually denote dimensions of
>status in the hierarchies typical of bourgeois institutions.

As things go, I would think of one with a doctorate as more
than just middle class. 

>Consequently, to note that persons equally advanced in these
>dimensions are equally compensated, regardless of gender,
>seems vacuously tautological.  

These are published figures, actual salaries, not logical arguments
on what salaries -should- be. Where is the tautology?

>                               The interesting question is
>how and whether status is achieved, which is what differs
>per gender, not how well it is compensated, which evidently
>does not.  

But that was not the question addressed by the post. If you wish
to ask a different question, do so.
 
>When Ed comes back he'll go into the reasons for your not
>observing this on your own.

???

>
> )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
>( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )

Rich

payner@netcom.com


Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1683 soc.women:19267 alt.feminism:4129 soc.men:19033
From: kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:54:16 GMT
	<KYTAN.92Nov6110939@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com>
	<1992Nov7.170150.12610@dragon.acadiau.ca>
	<1992Nov8.003348.27187@ils.nwu.edu>
	<1992Nov8.185606.7713@dragon.acadiau.ca>
Organization: Organised?  Here?  Hahahahahahahaha.....

In article <1992Nov8.185606.7713@dragon.acadiau.ca> 891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk) writes:

>Rich, can't you see the vast difference between art and advertising?
>1. The goal of art is not to sell some product (other than the art itself)
>2. Advertising is so extremely pervasive in today's North American society. I
>cannot go a day without seeing a plug for some product (try as I might).

>If these two factors were not involved and advertising refelected the artistic
>notions of individuals, then I would consider it art. Unfortuneately, if these
>two factors were removed, then it would no longer be considered advertising.

>I realize that advertising reflects the work of so-called 'artists', but such
>people are merely the puppets of corporations. 
>Trish

Sigh.  Okay, let's dismantle government, corporations, museums and whatever
else you don't like.  And anytime anyone even thinks non-Politically-Correct
thoughts, exterminate them.  Fundamentalists will be fundamentalists the world
over, be they religious fundies or PC fundies.  Arrrgh.





--
===============================================================================
Kok-Yong Tan, 			  	| My words are my own: 
Fixed Income Analytics Group, 	  	| My bosses know naught.
Merrill Lynch,			  	| Wherever they're sown,
World Financial Center, North Tower, 	| Just I should be sought.
New York, NY 10281-1315.	  	|		- K. Y. Tan, 5 Feb 1992
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
InterNet: kytan@fia.dmg.ml.com (Merrill Lynch)
	  75046.256@compuserve.com (CompuServe)
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: cabizon@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (THOMAS BIZON)
Subject: Re: girl.gif (Part 1/4)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  5 Nov 1992 09:48 EST  

In article <1992Nov4.162006.4275@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, johnv@ariel.yorku.ca (John Vink) writes...
>In article <c9zy02j0292P01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll) writes:
>>
>>It is indeed Paulina, from an issue of Playboy about 5 years back.  
>>
>How can you memorize such things?
> 
>JAV
> 
> 
How can you not????????
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: funga@ecf.toronto.edu (FUNG Alexander Yok-Wai)
Subject: Re: If She Only Had A Brain
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:11:17 GMT

In article <1dgiepINNrc2@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cf542@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Julio Richard Laredo) writes:
>
>A side bar consisted of a a short quiz of widely varied questions
>("What color is ecru" and "What is the French word for shoe" for
>example) which were asked of the afore-mentioned models.  As 
>a reference, three women of education were also asked: a 
>graduate of Yale and Columbia Law School, a rabbi, and a doctor.
>
>Elle came in first, and the Yalie, the rabbi, and the doctor
>came in last.
>
As well they should. Being models (sorry, supermodels), should they
not know about colours and foreign terms for fashion apparel?

Now, if they beat out those latter 3 women on questions like "What is
the composition of intestines" and "Explain habeas corpus", I'd be worried :)

-- 
Alex (funga@ecf.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: panlilio@acs.ucalgary.ca (Victor P. Panlilio)
Subject: Re: re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Summary: Winding down the debate
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 07:43:24 GMT
Expires: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta
Keywords: cooling off
Followup-To: alt.supermodels

In article <BxIr65.H0D@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil> perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez) writes:

>So who says that radical feminists are the only ones who lack self-
>confidence? :-)

Heh. Most men who don't have sizable Swiss bank accounts qualify.

I still get nervous about stopping women in the street to ask if
they're interested in being photographed, even though I've done
it before and was pleasantly surprised not to be told to f-off.

>So? *I* wouldn't enjoy the company of anyone who referred to someone who
>didn't know who Paul Klee was as "culturally unenlightened". Pretentious
>snob.

Charles, methinks Audrey wants to trumpet her "taste" in art all
over the net as being on a more exalted level than, say, that of
the (beer-guzzling, nose-picking, neo-Neanderthal) class of male
human who displays an Elle MacPherson calendar on his wall. And,
since I have the 1992 SI Swimsuit calendar on *my* studio wall, I
suppose I am one of the culturally "unenlightened," even though I
happen to think that Paul Klee is vastly overrated, and that an
M.C. Escher drawing is far more interesting to look at...

At least I no longer put up diagrams of computer motherboards!

*chuckle*

Victor 8^)
(an unrepentant admirer of female beauty, quite content)
From: epasls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
Subject: Prelude to CindyC gif post.
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:10:07 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

> Howdy all.
>> This is dmc, the one who 20 people mailed requesting the
> cindy+stephanie-clothes.gif and others.
> My first intention was to trade it for erika pix and be
> done with it.  It has become a pain in the ass.
> I will post my 5 best cindy(nude) pics to alt.supermodels and
> a.b.p.e within 7 days.
.....
Well, I finally got around to doing it.
I will post these pix
cc031.gif.uue   cindy in a shower wearing a semi see thru
                white one piece suit.  Not great picture
                resolution but still a white-hot pic

cc033.gif.uue   top half of naked cindy with her hands
                cupping her breasts.(nice pic)

cc036.gif.uue     a b?/w pic of her on a roof of some building
                  she is naked, back to camera with a sheet
                  covering her legs(ultra cute butt)

cc040.gif.uue     her on a windy beach with an incredibly see thru top.

cc042.gif.uue     her wearing some black vcut swimsuit, more than half
                  of one of her nipples is visible.

cc050.gif.uue     Cindy_Crawford+Stephanie_Seymour-cloths=hot pic

cc051.gif.uue     Top half of cindy naked with orange sheets in the
                  background.(best view of her breasts i've seen)

cc052.gif.uue     It looks like it was a nice wide gif of her
                  lying on a beach naked but was chopped so that
                  you can only see half of one of her nipples.(b/w)





I have recieved all the pics of Eika I want(17),
dont send me any more.
I will not post or trade or send anymore pix.
requests will be politely ignored.
I might repost the erika pix but not soon.


Later...

Enjoy...


"I cross the street when I get to a construction site, like for
the usual reasons but with me its like 'hey, we've got your calender
in our office' and i'm like "I hope its laminated""

...Cindy Crawford(not an exact wquote but close from Deatails)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels
From: harryrow@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Harry Rowe)
Subject: Pictures?
Keywords: pictures
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: ind
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 03:11:17 GMT

I've heard a lot about .gifs and .jpgs on this group.  Is there a group where
the pictures are posted?  I would really like to get ahold of Cindy and Elle.
(Nobody mail me pictures!)  Thanks.  This might be a good response to post!?
-- 
| the     H__H        |Miss you, commissioner Gordon| Harry R. Rowe  HHH     |
|   Horny H""H__H     |        Warren Peace, Buttman| harryrow@sage.cc.purdue|
|   Hoosier  H""H__H  |Hatred is self punishment. HB| rowehr@feserve.cc      |
|   Harry       H""H  | Daemons PRRC AYBS TCC MFC   | Physics Major, Purdue  |
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1678 soc.women:19261 alt.feminism:4122 soc.men:19027