HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Friday, 11 Dec 1992 13:17:23 EST
From: Judy Gerber <SPKBB@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: VEGAN: Good burger recipes (was: Novice Vegetarian stuff...)
 <tara.722555179@starburst.umd.edu> <altar.722621842@sfu.ca>
 <1992Nov26.004929.10442@imagen.com> <tara.723049992@starburst.umd.edu>
 <tara.723247145@starburst.umd.edu>

Gravy Master is an all-veg sauce you can probably get in your local
grocery store. (At least in NY). My mom has used it for years with
her meat recipes.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: omitchel@jarthur.claremont.edu (Ocie Mitchell)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 05:19:26 GMT

In article <c188-am.724300457@po.berkeley.edu> c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi) writes:
>
>"GIVE ME CONVENIENCE OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
>			-- Dead Kennedys
>
>Why aren't there more vegetarians?
>Its too hard.
>Time is money and as long as someone can go into a McDonalds and buy a
>burger for $.39 they are going to be very reluctant to give it up.
>
>CATCH-22
>No one would buy a veggie burger?
>There has never been a veggie burger (in fast food).

Actually, in the northwest there is a chain of gamburger places called 
burgerville, they served a gardenburger about 3 years ago, but they didn't 
sell so...

>
>Its a given that the burger consumer is completely disassociated from the
>act of killing the animal.  Shouldn't the price of meat at least reflect the
>environmental cost?  $.39 just doesn't cover it.
>

If veggie burgers were provided at the same price schedule as regular burgers,
how much do you think the'd cost? $.05, $.10?  The point is that the demand 
for them is not great enough to provide them at this price**.  (** I am not 
an economist, but this sound logical)

>If meat was priced fairly, veggie burgers would sell like...like hot-cakes!
>

Exactly, if all the ariable land in the world were to suddenly be divided 
among all the human population equally, how many vegetarians woiuld be 
created?

>McDonalds is certainly to be avoided, but just think of how many people
>there are who have very limited eating options (location, $$) and who would
>benefit from having vegetarian fare at least *on* the menu.  Not only are
>most people not vegetarians, most don't even consider it possible.  How can
>there be freedom without choice?
>
>Liberate the animals - Liberate the People!
>

yeah, power to the animals!

>--
> Leor Jacobi                ,__o  |"Darkness is the shore of light.
> leor@ocf.berkeley.edu    _-\_<,  | The truth is framed with lies...
> c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (*)/'(*) | When you're thin and damp and shoddy,
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| just remember you're in a body." - R.H.


----------------------------------------------+-------------------------------
``What do you think sirs?''  -Joel (mst3k)    | .sig lite- all .sig no guilt
----------------------------------------------+------------------------------- 
   __             _ _ _                       | Ocie Mitchell
  / ')           ' ) ) )  _/_    /      /) /) | omitchel@jarthur.claremont.edu
 /  / _. o _      / / / o /  _. /_  _  // //  | Q:is that your real name? 
(__/ (__(_(<_    / ' (_(_(__(__/ /_(<_(/_(/_  | A:yes, it is my real name.
----------------------------------------------+-------------------------------
From: lwm3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (LANCE WILLIAM MUZSLAY)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: vegan bacon?
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:56:02 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>Does anyone know of something on the market that resembles the
>taste of bacon, or at least bacon fat?  I'd sure like to
>suggest it to her, whatever it is!
>

I am not too aware of what is available on the market but I got a recipe off
this discussion group last year for Tofu Bacon.  I've made it a couple of
times and it was delicious.  From what I can remember about the taste of bacon
I believe the Tofu Bacon tasted remarkably similar - it was almost identical
in taste.  The ingredients were very simple and I think they were the
following:  tofu, tamari soy sauce, liquid smoke, nutritional yeast, and oil
for frying.  I don't have the recipe handy at the moment but I will try to
post it within a day or too when I'm not too busy (its final exams time now).

                                                                        
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: mwisdom@bnr.ca (Mark Wisdom)
Subject: Vegetarian restaurants in Hong Kong
Reply-To: mwisdom@bnr.ca (Mark Wisdom)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 03:26:47 GMT

Aki Namioka e-mailed me and mentioned:
> 
> One small observation about the Hong Kong entry (in case you ever
> update the list).  From what I have heard, there are at least 100
> chinese vegetarian (read the description of the Bamboo Gardens in
> Seattle) in Hong Kong and probably several in Taiwan and the PRC.  This
> style of cooking is a classic buddhist style of cooking and you will
> find that often they don't include garlic and onions in the cooking for
> the same reason.
> 
> It would be interesting if there are any chinese rec.food.veg
> readers that might be interested in compiling such a list.

This is a very valid point. If any of you Chinese readers of
rec.food.veg is up to doing this, please e-mail me and I will include
your work in the next edition of the World Guide to Vegetarianism.
Currently the only listing we have for Hong Kong is:

> The Higher Taste Vegetarian Dining Club, 27 Chatam Road South,
> 6/F, Kowloon, Tel. 739-6818
> - Hare Krishna vegetarian restaurant.

Of course, all suggestions, no matter how small, are most welcome.

Thanks.

-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Wisdom,  Bell-Northern Research,  Ottawa, Canada
Disclaimer: Above opinions are my own, and not BNR's.
-----------------------------------------------------
From: avi@seal.imagen.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:29:12 GMT
Reply-To: avi@seal.imagen.com
Organization: none

In article <1992Dec11.170523.22855@psych.toronto.edu>, michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar) writes:

>>The book "The secret life of the plants" CONTAINS references and summary of such
>>scientifical evidence. The capability of plants TO SUFFER has been proven
>>beyond doubt by measuring and analysing electrical impluses of plants when
>>inflicted with certain kinds of "torture" (what would be torture to a plant)
>>as opposed to impulses when they are taken care of (watered, etc.) or ignored.
>>
>>It was even shown, that plants can RECOGNIZE and distinguish between people
>>with so called "green thumbs" (plant lovers) and others who experimentally 
>>inflicted "torture" on the specific plant, which is a sign of consciousness
>>and some form of sensory perception, unknown to humans.
>>The idea of extending compassion to plants is not easy to digest, but if
>>your "ethical category" relates  to only those life forms YOU so conveniently
>>choose to include, while excluding other deserving of this compassion, then
>>you are unfortunately a hypocrite.


> I take it you avoid such hypocricy by only eating rocks?
> 
> - michael

That's EXACTLY my point ! You can NOT use the "Ahimsa" or Non-harming argument
as a LOGICAL basis for abstaining from meat-consumption (being a vegetarian). 
If you do - you can NOT eat plants, either, because you'll be forced to extend
your compassion to plants, as well.

In other words, factually and logically speaking, if you say you're a vegetarian
becuase its healthier, that's fine. If you say your'e a vegetarian because you
"love animals and think killing animals is bad" you're either an ignorant (about
plants life) or a hypocrite !  (I realize that sounds pretty strong, but those ARE
the facts).

Michael, I do not have the book with me (I read it about 8-10 years ago) so 
unfortunately, I can't post the studies mentioned. You may want to check your
local library for a copy, or maybe some kind soul on the net that has a copy, 
and don't mind some typing, can help.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:08:52 GMT

das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes:

>In article <1g6h6jINNf54@morrow.stanford.edu> andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest) writes:
>>The article I saw said there were no plans to market it in the US
>>and quoted two or three business analysts who said that there would
>>be a miniscule customer base for it here.  Fools.  There may not be
>>that many of us, but whoever gets that veggie burger first will get
>>all the veggie fast food business.
>>
>Does anyone have an 800 number for McD's?  Maybe we could start a phone-in
>campaign like the one we did for Burger King a while back. 

* McDonald's, Campus Office Building, Kroc Drive, Oak Brook IL 60521.
(708) 575-3000. 

Sorry its not an 800 number.
This was posted recently.  If anyone needs more addresses or info, I'll gladly
send some.  I mailed McD's a letter a week ago.

--
 Leor Jacobi                ,__o  |"Darkness is the shore of light.
 leor@ocf.berkeley.edu    _-\_<,  | The truth is framed with lies...
 c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (*)/'(*) | When you're thin and damp and shoddy,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| just remember you're in a body." - R.H.
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Medicine and The Mall
Date: 17 Dec 92 09:29:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley

avi@seal.imagen.com writes:

>>vivianm@src.dec.com (Vivian Manganello)
>>Am I correct in assuming that all the disputing is from people that are
>>vegetarians?  Or people who are trying to justify their eating of meat?  
>>If we do take into consideration the killing of bacteria and plant life, 
>>we must also stop taking showers.  Have you realized how many microorganisms 
>>that live on your body, that are dying needlessly everyday?
>>
>2. Where do you draw the line ? That's EXACTLY my point !
>   Why is killing cows and chickens unjustified but killing micro-organisms and
>   plants, both of which are undoubtely ALIVE, is justified ?

Still, after all this time, this person is making an IRRELEVANT argument.  I
have replied repeatedly, but still there has been no comment on my points.

Eating animals KILLS MORE PLANTS.
Animals are higher on the food-chain.
Every time you buy meat, not only do you support the slaughter of the
animal, but you are supporting the deaths of ALL THE PLANTS that were fed to
the animal.

For example:

Eat Plants		vs.		Eat Animals
15 plants die				1 animal AND 200 plants die

This is a VERY realistic portrayal of the dilemma.

>   My point in all the previous posts, is to underline the fact that while
>   vegetarianism is a great diet choice, one which I personally support and
>   follow, NOT ALL reasons/causes for such a choice are logically justifiable.

Logical reasons to become a vegetarian:

health
animal rights
environmental (ethical)
feminist (yet another objectification of living beings)

>   If one is a vegetarian for health reasons, that's fine and it makes sense,
>   too. If one abstains from Meat consumption because "I love animals and I 
>   don't like them dead" then one is unfortunately either an ignorant or a
>   hypocrite.  

I love animals and I don't like them dead.  You are a hypocrite.

>   It is not the vegetarian diet choice that is in question here but the 
>   educated and logical motivation behind it.

There is no logical motivation behind meat-eating.
"The Secret Life of Plants" has been shown to be flat-out bogus.
There is a "body" of vegetarian protest literature.
I suggest that this person read some of it before he/she proclaims the
ignorance of ethical vegetarians.

Leor Jacobi
From: lwm3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (LANCE WILLIAM MUZSLAY)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: vegan bacon?
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:34:27 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

>Does anyone know of something on the market that resembles the
>taste of bacon, or at least bacon fat?

Here is the recipe for Tofu Bacon that I got off the network last May.  It was
originally sent in by Tara McDermott.

Ingredients:

1.  1 lb. firm Tofu, cut into strips shaped like bacon
2.  2 tablespoons nutritional yeast
3.  2 tablespoons tamari/shoyu
4.  1 teaspoon Wright's (or other brand) liquid smoke
5.  1 tablespoon oil (something neutral, not olive or sesame)

Fry tofu strips on low or medium heat until they are crispy on the outside
(the thinner are the strips, the more crispy they will get).  The best way to
do this is to lay them in the pan in the oil and let them sit for at least 10
minutes, simmering.  They should turn easily after that.  Turn them and give
them another 10 minutes on the other side.

Mix the tamari/shoyu soy sauce with the liquid smoke first, then take the pan
off the heat.  Pour the liquid smoke/tamari into the pan and stir the tofu so
all sides are coated, then sprinkle the yeast over all, stir some more, over
the heat, until the liquid is gone and the tofu is covered with sticky yeast.

Another variation is to marinate the tofu in the tamari/liquid smoke mixture
for several hours and then fry, but it misses a little bit without the
nutritional yeast.


I found this recipe delicious.  It tastes best right after cooking but it is
also good cold on a B.L.T. sandwich.
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: Looking for a good meatless cookbook
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:42:45 GMT

In article <tara.724457811@starburst.umd.edu> tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott) writes:
>The New Farm Vegetarian Cookbook by Hagler I believe.
>[...] It is very soy oriented,
>using soymilk, soybeans (easily replacable if you wish), tvp, tempeh,
>and tofu in most of the recipes.

This is not surprising if I'm remembering correctly.  I think I saw an
article briefly describing The Farm.  It is some sort of commune or
cooperative, and I seem to recall that they try to produce a lot of
their own food, and they specialize in making (and selling to support
themselves) tofu and other soy foods.  I could be totally wrong.  :-)

>I might also reccomend the New Laurel's Kitchen.  It is commonly
>referred to as the Vegetarian Bible,

I think of the Goldbecks' American Wholefoods Cuisine that way... or
maybe as the Joy of Vegetarian Cooking.  I think it's a great book,
especially for those who are beginners at cooking in general as well
as at Vegetarian cooking.  My only problems with it are 1) too much
egg and dairy (they have consciously tried to limit their use, but I'm
looking for lowfat, and that's spoiled when you add an egg and cheese)
and 2) I find many of their recipes too bland.  (What?  One clove of
garlic for two quarts of soup?  Not even close.)  But still, I think
it's a book worth having.  (btw, Ted, I found EnerG egg replacer at
my store -- thanks for the help.  Haven't tried it yet.)

My mother, who is not vegetarian but has been cutting back on meat,
likes Lean, Luscious, and Meatless.  It is probably a good book for
carnivores who are not true converts yet.  It has a lot of things
named for meat dishes, and designed to resemble them, so it is not so
good for a veg who doesn't want to hear about dead animals at all.

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Why you should recycle bytes:  "Believe it or not, most deleted bytes currently
find their way straight into the Internet refuse stream, often to turn up in
postings to Usenet, or worse, OSI standards documents!"  -- Peter Deutsch
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Subject: Pets and animal rights
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:17:45 GMT

Hmmm, the subject is a bit off, but I'm not sure what a better one is.

First off, put me on the omnivore list, please.  Truth in advertising.
I'll try not to post too much; what's my line limit?  ;-)

I have been thinking about animal rights stuff, vegetarianism, etc.  I
had a weird thought.  is it right to breed animals that eat meat, or
primarily meat.  I'm roking under the assumption, which I've heard from
every vet and vet student I've asked, that cats, and possibly dogs, 
require meat or meat products in their diet.  So should we purposefully
breed more carnivores, be they pets or even, say, non-endangered zoo animals?

Maybe this is too strange a topic to bring up here, but my cats wanted
to know.  

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Subject: Re: Vegetarians or not vegetarians?
Organization: Abo Akademi University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:17:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.195033.5723@i88.isc.com> claudiak@i88.isc.com (Claudia Kale (STG)) writes:

>I am also baffled about your concern over the volume of postings by
>Mr. Dyer and Mr. Young. I think that if somebody really cared to count
>the words contributed by various posters, they'd find that Mr. Dyer
>and Mr. Young *combined* have posted fewer words than (say) Mr. Altar,
>or Michael Traub, or Abhay Bulsari. So what has the volume of one's
>postings got to do with anything? I am most emphatically *not* trying
>to speak on behalf of Rich, Steve, Ted, Michael or Abhay - all of
>those posters have ably proven that they can do that for themselves!
>Nor am I trying to say that any of these guys posts too much. I am
>just pointing out that the volume of one's postings has absolutely
>nothing to do with the validity of one's comments.

This is a forum for vegetarian issues. If someone takes a lot of
trouble to post a large volume and is not a vegetarian, I would
question his/her credibility.

Abhay
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:00:32 GMT

jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:

>>The article I saw said there were no plans to market it in the US
>>and quoted two or three business analysts who said that there would
>>be a miniscule customer base for it here.  Fools.  There may not be
>>that many of us, but whoever gets that veggie burger first will get
>>all the veggie fast food business.

>Which should send their earnings skyrocketing up about 0.01% right?
>Seriously, how big a veggie market is their in the US?  I'd probably
>eat a veggie burger ossasionally, but in general, I avoid places like
>McD's or BK.  When I want vegetarian fare, I usually just go to a
>Chinese or Indian restaurant.

There are plenty of vegetarians that occasionally need food on the go.
What about all those vegetarians that travel by car?  I take lots of
long trips, and can never find any food along the way.  I still
wouldn't support McDeath and stop there and buy something, but that's
just me.  The Vegetarian Market is probably fairly small, in
comparison to our meat eating counterparts, but remember, omnivores
will occasionally eat a veggie burger too!  

PETA recently had (has?) a campaign to put a sticker on restaurants
stating that vegetarian meals are served here.  The clout they used in
getting these stickers up was that according to a gallup pole of some
sort, 20% of people go to a restaurant because they would like a
vegetarian entree.  Just because someone is not a vegetarian doesn't
stop them from trying to eat a little healthier.  If a vegetarian
burger is available at a fast food joint such as McDonalds, maybe this
person would choose it over a big mac?   Who knows.  The market is not
limited to JUST vegetarians. 

--
Tara McDermott               
tara@starburst.umd.edu       
I eat tofu, and I vote.
From: howard@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Oganic Foods "Non-essential"???
Date: 18 Dec 92 12:43:31 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Dec17.232507.26614@eng.umd.edu>, georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark) writes:
> 
> The FDA's annual pesticide residue study was just released.
> 66.8% of more than 18,000 tested fruits and vegetables had no pesticide
> residues at all. 31.6% had residues below allowable federal limits. Only
> 1.5% contained measurable levels.
> 

Isn't the greater problem with pesticides and other chemicals the 
effect on the environment? The effect on the water supply in agricultural 
states is affected by great use of chemicals. I've heard that close
to 80% of the water supply in Iowa has significant chemical contamination
caused by runoff from the land. We regularly have periods during the 
year where pregnant women and children are advised to drink only 
bottled water due to high levels of contaminants in the drinking water. 
Of course, the livestock are drinking that water. This impact on the
environment seems reason enough to look for foods and grains grow with
little or no chemicals. 

-Mary Howard
From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Help with non-perishable snacks for New Vegan
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:25:26 GMT
Organization: Yet Another Graphics Project, Bellevue, WA

In article <Bz14Cz.5xL@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar) writes:
>
>Granola ain't low fat.  Not even close.  Granola and diets don't mix.

Depends on the granola.  Most have oil added, but (at least in Seattle)
there's one with no added fat.  Of course, it still contains nuts and
coconut.  If you made it yourself, however, you could control exactly waht
went into it, and go lightly on nuts, etc.  (no, sorry, don't have a recipe.)
------
Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // ....uw-beaver!bcsaic!voodoo!das
From: hagop@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Hagop D. Janoyan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Immune system
Keywords: FAQ
Date: 17 Dec 92 07:02:31 GMT
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles

I have a situation here that I just don't know what to think of:

I became an ovo-lacto vegeterian about a year ago.  Since then, I never was
inflicted by the "common cold."  Some days I did feel a bit under the weather
and felt I was going to become sick, but the feeling quickly went away and I
would be back to normal  in no time.

Three days ago, I was at my boss's house and we were having lunch.  We had
microwave pizza, with sausage on top (I was kind of insulted, since my boss
knew I was a vegie).  I didn't want to make a big fuss about it, so I quietly
removed these small pieces of meat as best as I could, but of course I couldn't
remove all of it and suddenly I found myself eating meat, something I hadn't 
done for a long time.  I felt bad about this, very bad.  That night, I was
feeling weaker than usual.  The next morning, I woke up with a sore throat.
I still go to work/school, but take good care of myself.  The next day, I'm
very sick and had to spend the whole day at home in bed.  Finally, today I'm
feeling a lot better and I'm almost back to normal.

Did eating sausage actually hurt my immune system?  Before become a vegie,
I was very prone to sickness...I would get the common cold every two months,
if not less.  And I'd always would to have to sleep in for at least a day or
two before I feel better.

Of course, it could be the stress associated with eating meat could have 
caused my immune system to not work as well.  

Any comments?  Is this all my imagination, or have others experienced
this? 

-Hagop
-- 
-Hagop