HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Christ's teachings and the Apostle's writings.
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:24:00 GMT
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Michael,

Paul, in Galatians, specifically states that his gospel was received
directly from Jesus.  This is, obviously, a post resurrection revelation.
Now, was he lying?  Do we think that he was so encumbered with the
religious systems of his time that he couldn't accurately reherse to us
what Jesus told him?

You keep stating that the writings of the apostles are about the gospel
instead of being the actual gospel.  Where is the actual gospel to be
found?  I'm sure you would not accept the gour New Testament gospels as
accurate, since they were written, two by apostles, and two by others than
apostles.  Where, then, are we to find the gospel?

If your answer is that we learn the gospel via direct revelation in our
hearts, then the Bible is a gigantic lie and Christianity is too and each
must proceed on his and her own way through the mysteries of the universe,
guided by some "inner light" that has no basis for being tested nor with
which nobody can contend.  The result of this is that there is no error nor
truth.

If the apostles, having been with Jesus, couldn't be trusted to render the
gospel accurately, how on earth could anyone else be so trusted.  If none
can be trusted, then we return to each person receiving the gospel within
themselves which is absurd.  If this modality is true, then how do you know
that the paranoid murder screaming away his lungs in the mental hospital
and claiming to hear voices from God is not telling the gospel?

I agree that the Holy Spirit does teach each believer and does provide
great illumination on the scripture.  There's the standard, though, the
scriptures.  Paul's gospel was directly from Jesus, and he pronounces
anathemas upon any disagreeing party.  There, then is the absolute standard
by which your knowledge and opinions of Jesus must be compared.  If you
agree with Paul, you pass the test, if not, you fail.  There must be a
standard.  If there is not, then the concepts of truth, falsehood and even
God are meaningless.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:48:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Security, sin and two natures.

This discussion about eternal security is missing a very important point.
In ezekiel 36, the promise of the New Covenant's new heart is made.  Not a
new body, just a new heart and nature.  Romans seven portrays a very sharp
distinction and battle between the old and new natures in the saved,
converted, born again person.

The new nature, according to 1 John 3, will not sin, the old, cannot but
sin.  We are exhorted throughout the NT to control the old nature, to being
it under subjection, but this has n othing to do with the new nature and
the fact that salvation is to the new nature, not the old.  When we are
given that celestial body Paul epsaks of in 1 Cor. 15, it will contain that
new heart, and the old will finally be finished and disappeat.

We need to remember this duality of the Christian.  No sin, allowing for
the unpardonable one, will unsave a person because the salvation is in the
new nature, not to the old one.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:52:52 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Robert of Lincoln (9 Oct 1253)

ROBERT GROSSETESTE, BISHOP (9 OCT 1253)

Had the leaders of the thirteenth century heeded this preacher, many
of the disasters of the following three centuries might have been
avoided. Robert was a peasant lad from Suffolk, born about 1775. He
distinguished himself at Oxford in law, medicine, languages, natural
sciences, and theology. He became what is now called Chancellor of
Oxford University.

In 1235, he was elected Bishop of Lincoln, in area the largest
diocese in England. He promptly visited all the churches in the
diocese and quickly removed many of the prominent clergy because
they were neglectng their pastoral duties. He vigorously opposed the
practice by which the Pope appointed Italians as absentee clergy for
English churches (collecting salaries from said churches without
ever setting foot in the country). He insisted that his priests
spend their time in the service of their people, in prayer, and in
study. He went on a pilgrimage to Rome, where he spoke out boldly
against ecclesiastical abuses. Back in England, he spoke against
unlawful usurpations of power by the monarch, and was one of those
present at the signing of the Magna Carta.

Grosseteste's scholarly writings embraced many fields of learning.
He translated into Latin the ETHICS of Aristotle and the theological
works of John of Damascus and of the fifth-century writer known as
Dionysius the Areopagite. He was skilled in poetry, music,
architecture, mathematics, astronomy, optics, and physics (one of
his pupils was Roger Bacon). His writings on the first chapter of
Genesis include an interesting anticipation of modern cosmological
ideas. He knew Hebrew and Greek, and his Biblical studies were a
notable contribution to the scholarship of the day.

PRAYER
   O God our heavenly Father, who didst raise up thy faithful
   servant Robert Grosseteste to be a bishop and pastor in thy
   Church and to feed thy flock: Give to all pastors abundant
   gifts of thy Holy Spirit, that they may minister in thy
   household as true servants of Christ and stewards of thy divine
   mysteries; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and
   reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for
   ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:39:55 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: LOGICALLY ILLOGICAL.
              at Oct 15, 92 11:00 am

Eh Graham,
I would contend that the human mind does not think Von Neuman style..

Computers are now being built that go somewhat in modelling the processes
of the human phsycial brain called Nueral Networks. This is not linear
step by step instructional processing as advocated by Von Nueman, but
pattern matching etc etc.

(and aside I know, but what the hey!)


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:34:00 CST
From:         "dr. Daniel Edward Taylor" <AUTENRKL@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      oct 28,92 Jesus is comming? huh?!?

to all,
    just looked out my window and saw a van that had printed on it--
    Oct 28, 92
    Jesus is Comming Back!

    did someone talk about this already...could you bring me (us) up
    to date?

    i don't want to miss it. 8-O oh,nooooo! :)

dr. Daniel Edward Taylor
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
kevin autenrieth            U N D E R   T H E   G A Z E   O F   G O D
autenrkl@sluvca.slu.edu
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
 At the foot of the Cross -- Clouds, rain, fire -- on glassHouse records
From: MM24681@UAFSYSB.BITNET (Michael Million)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Gnosticism defined
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:23:29 GMT
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 For the definitionally challenged:
      Gnosticism   n.  The doctines of certain early Christian sects
   that valued inquiry into spiritual truth above faith, considered
   salvation attainable only by the few whose faith enabled them to
   transcend matter, and viewed Christ as noncorporeal.

 [American Heritage def.]         .... try again.     Michael
From: Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU (Leo W)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Scripturette 10/15
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:48:43 GMT
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"He said to them [the apostles], "Remember when I was with you before?  I said
that everything written about me must happen -- everything in the law of Moses,
the books of the prohets, and the Psalms."

"Then Jesus opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures..."
(Luke 24:44,45).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:08:00 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: WOW! ??
              "A16905@ITESO.BITNET" at Oct 7, 92 1:44 pm

>
>Yes Carol, Ian is expecting a child for next spring !
>
>Shalom,
>Memo.
>


UNDER
DOWN
AM
I
Memo


(for us its Autumn)!!!



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:51:47 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: males vs females and God

On 10/07/92 at 10:29:18 A16905@ITESO.BITNET said:
>Bernice,

>My relation with Jesus is quite romantic, for me, romantic is not the same as
>erotic.

I started to say "sexual"  but was afraid of being bombarded!

>Shalom,
>Memo.

Your friend in Christ, Bernice
From: LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET (Lauren H. Arango)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: no hate mail
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:06:00 GMT
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I just read Madge's message, and I must write and say that I have yet to
read any post on CHRISTIA that I would put in the category of "hate mail".
Sometimes people post things that I don't agree with; sometimes people
post things that make me angry.  But I've never read anything that I thought
was motivated by hate....and I have been a constant subscriber to CHRISTIA
from within a month or so of its creation.

If anything, when I compare CHRISTIA discussions and posts with those on other
lists I belong to, the messages on CHRISTIA are more full of love and com-
passion than those of any other list.

It's unfortunate when a few say, "If you don't agree with me and condone
what I do, then you are guilty of hate."  Saying it doesn't make it so.

                                God's peace,
                                Lauren
From: Z$T@FCCJ.BITNET (PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Christian Music
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:15:50 GMT
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TODD,

     IT'S A FUNNY THING YOU SHOULD MENTION CHRISTIAN MUSIC.  I AM VERY HEAVILY
INTO CHRISTIAN MUSIC.  ESPECIALLY GROUPS LIKE DIE HAPPY, WHITE CROSS, WHITE
HEART, PETRA, VENGENCE RISING, AND A NUMBER OF OTHER GROUPS.  BY THE WAY WHAT
GROUPS DO YOU LISTEN TO.

        YOUR LOVING BROTHER IN CHRIST,

        PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 08:34:53 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New nature vs. two natures.
              9 Oct 1992 18:38:38 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Dear Mark et al ;

The passage from Romans 7 must be taken in context whether in Koine Greek or
in Contemporary English, so obtuseness is ameleorated somewhat by other
parts of Romans.  In other words what is Paul saying in other sections of
his letter?

A clue to all of this is seen in Romans 6, Romans 8 and the initial parts of
chapter 7.
Chapter 6 makes a clear deliniation between slaves to sin and slaves to
Christ. No argument.  Chapter 8 shows the victory of Christians over sin
and evil.
Adding the initial parts of chapter 7, we begin to see a piacture of Law
versus Grace, and this has been intimated through out Paul's epistle.
Although not evl, the Law was never designed to be an instrument of
sanctification from sin for the true believer.  It's only purpose was to
be a moral signpost ... an indicator of sinfulness for the unbeliever.
Further, the whole jist of chapter 7, as implicit and somewhat nebulous in
language as it is, seems to be again : "What happens when a person, whether
Christian or not, gets under Law for means of Sanctification."  See the
earlier parts of chapter 7 when Paul shows that it was the purpose of God
to "give us to another" (Christ) so that we COULD bear TRUE fruit for God and
fruit that would last.  Under Law, we could only bear fruit for DEATH.

So, Paul is revealing the greatness of Grace as opposed to the shadow of the
Law.



In Christ ;

Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 11:39:13 -0500
From:         "(Tom Ford)" <tford@NEPTUNE.CONVEX.COM>
Subject:      Romania/Moldova trip

Greetings,
I'll be leaving this Friday, Oct. 16, to go to Romania for two weeks.
I asked for prayer concerning the trip about a month ago, and I was encouraged
at the responses I received from Zane, Wolfgang, Bernice, and others.  I'm
pretty quiet on the list, but I feel like I know all of you somewhat since I
follow the list almost daily.  I appreciate your prayer support very much.

Zane asked me to tell something about the condition of the church in Romania.
I dont know a lot of details about the church in general in Romania, only
what I observed or heard about.  Before the December 1989 churches had to be
registered with the government and were oppressed pretty heavily.  There were
also underground churches operating smuggling Bibles, etc.   The conditions
were pretty bad, and there were lots of informers working for the state police
called the Securitate.  Every phone call was recorded.  The government acted
just like Big Brother '1984'.  Revolution that overthrough the dictator
Ceaucescu started when an ministor, Laslo Tokes, and his church congregation
stood up to the police and the army saying "God is with us".  Thousands of
people were killed by the police, but it set off a chain reaction around
the country.   It's a long, but very interest story, I would encourage you
to look it up.  God delivered the country from the hands of a satanic
dictator.

The church I attend in Dallas has been working with a Romanian pastor in
Timisoara for about 2 1/2 years.  We've had several people go over and help
temporarily.  And have sent over lots of supplies.  Pastor Daniel and his
church are building a new building on land that the government donated.
The building will include an orphanage, nursing home, Bible school and church
building.  He has sent out pastor to several other cities around the country
to start new churches.  Last year I went with 30 people that split up into
4 teams to evangelise in 4 cities to build up new churches.  The Romanian
people are very open.  We saw about 5000 people respond to the gospel.

This year we are going to help start a new church in Moldova, which is
the Romanian speaking region in the exUSSR.  It's now an independent country.
Before WWII it was part of Romania.  There are 12 of us going and we will
sing and preach in public places.  We've learned several songs in Romanian
and will preach with an interpreter.  Laude pe Domnul! (praise the Lord!)

Please pray that our trip would be fruitful and that we would have favor at
the borders.  I'll give you a report when I get back.

Thank you,

Tom Ford
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:02:20 EDT
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Brenda on evolution/RU-486/predestination

Center for Urban and Economic Research
Phone: 502-588-6626

ON EVOLUTION

Marci Hendrix asks if evolution vs. creationism has been discussed on the list.
I believe if you check through the last year's logs you will find quite
extensive discussion.  It creeps up (or rather rears its ugly head) from
time to time, usually degenerates in tone and civility and goes back under
ground for a time.  I can say what I believe very quickly without bringing
the debate up again.  Simply put, I believe that God made us.  How he chose
to do it or how long it took is of no consequence to me.

ON RU-486

Eric James Ewanco writes, "The media is only trying to repackage RU-486 in a
more acceptable package so that it can be passed by the FDA!!"  While I accept
his basic premise that RU-486 is not a contraceptive but rather an
abortifacient when used the "day after," he is incorrect in assigning
so malicious an intent to the media.  The French company that produces
RU-486 has made no attempt to introduce it into the U.S., and so the FDA
(Food and Drug Administration) is not currently testing the drug for
approval.  And the media that I have watched (mainstream network type,
otherwise known as liberal) have shown several interviews with Catholic
priests on the subject of RU-486.  Hardly an attempt to present it as
a contraceptive.

ON PREDESTINATION

There has been some discussion in the mail logs I have checked about
predestination and losing one's salvation.  Ian suggested that his
salvation was the most important thing in his life (I think that was
the gist of his statement).  I take a slightly different stance.  It doesn't
matter to me if it is possible to lose my salvation or not.  I try to live
my life as though I can lose it.  I find that keeps me closer to the
straight and narrow.  And as for what's important to me, it isn't my
salvation.  The most important thing to me is God.  I serve him not
because he saved me, but because it is the right thing to do.  Even if
there were no "mansion over the hilltop" I would serve him because he is
a righteous God.

Brenda
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: feast or famine
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:03:00 GMT

In article <01GPFR7M3O7C0024BD@CC.OWU.EDU> LHARANGO@OWUCOMCN.BITNET (Lauren H. Arango) writes:
>>Could somebody please help me.  I have not received anything from
>>Christia all week.  Did something happen?  Is there something wrong
>>at my end.  I have been receiving other mail.  Did the list owners
>>have a problem with the equipment and needed to shut things down,
>>and I missed the posting, or what.
>>
>>In His Love
>>Karolyn
>
>Gee, Karolyn....I've been having just the opposite problem: multiple copies
>of about every third CHRISTIA message....sometimes as many as 6 copies of
>the same message.
>
>I wonder if our problems could be related.....
>
>                                        God's peace,
>                                        Lauren

To Karolyn and Lauren

Christia has been normal all week at my site.  Sounds like you both 
have local problems

Iain

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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 10:26:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      I'm back but I'll be quiet.... for a while

Hello to my cyberspace brothers & sisters

Well the Diefenbachs have returned from a wonderful and largely
refreshing break. We took the time to look at lots of God's
handiwork we used to "fly" (or the automobile equivalent) past
when we lived elsewhere. Our speedo broke the third day out, but our
4WD makes obvious noises at appropriate speeds so it's still broken.
Next week (ie next pay....)

We had no trouble with Kyle's hip which was great, and had wonderful
fellowship with old friends. We also had about 15 loads of washing
when we came home. :(

Glad that "stitches" Carnes is back in action (even if our theology does
differ a fair bit).

Thanks for prayers and support.

More later (if you're predestined to be bored)

Ken Diefenbach
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:03:15 -0400
From:         Dr Nancy's Sweetie <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>
Subject:      Christians supporting each other

I never dreamed I'd defend Rush Limbaugh, but here we are.

As a preface, I wish to say that I do not endorse anything Rush Limbaugh has
said.  Insofar as he supports ideas I agree with, I find him an embarrassment.
I listened to his radio program for a few days, and found his superficial
analyses somewhat depressing.  It was interesting to note that he speaks in
support of carpet companies with the same enthusiastic and sincere voice that
he uses for his political commentary.  (I expected him to say "Our competitors
are Communists, selling inferior carpets while pretending to be Republicans!
If you buy a carpet from them, it will drive up the national debt, ruin our
nation's family values, and pollute our streams and forests!")  In any case,
I don't bother with him anymore, because he commits the single worst sin a
radio commentator can: he is unbearably boring.  (But I never could figure out
why people liked Morton Downey, either.)

In contrast, I have agreed with almost everything Lon Mendelsohn has posted
to this list.

Now that the preliminaries are out of the way, I'm going to defend Mr Limbaugh
from comments made my Mr Mendelsohn:

> As for his alleged support of Christians and Christianity, that by no means
> demonstrates that he is a Christian.  [...]  [T]here are many Christians
> (myself included) who support items on the liberal agenda.  Would
> Mr. Limbaugh support our Christian cnviction to do so?  Somehow, I doubt it.

I suspect that Mr Limbaugh would not be at all interested in any argument that
disputed his opinion, regardless of the source or motivation behind said
argument.

However, I can see where he might quite reasonably refuse to support your
convictions if they seemed to produce wrong actions.  (You just know I have
some really good examples, don't you?)

In South Korea, there are reports of women having abortions in preparation for
the Rapture later this month (some groups have been claiming that the Rapture
will be on October 28th).  I'm doubt this is not what Jesus had in mind when
he said what is recorded in Matthew 24:19.  These women are apparently having
abortions because of what they consider Christian convictions -- and I do not
support those convictions.  I have similar opinions about any number of
atrocities committed by Christians -- in England, the Americas, Spain, during
the Crusades, and just about everywhere else.  Some people today still argue
that those were good things for Christians to do, because of their Christian
convictions.

It may be that Mr Limbaugh believes that some political ideas you support are
completely misguided; so misguided that whatever drives those ideas -- even if
it is your Christian faith -- should not be supported.  Opposing misguided
Christian convictions does not necessarily mean he is not a Christian.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Schism is the oldest of Christian traditions." -- Michael L Siemon
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