From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Non-existant Talmud quotes (was Supposed Talmud (was Almah in Isa))
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:43:10 GMT


First, in trying to prove that the idea of a virgin birth is found in the
Talmud, Harvey said:

>>> The below quotes are taken from the English folio edition of the Talmud vol
>>> ii p 386...

Now, this citation is wrong.  I checked in my copy of the Talmud at home, as
well as at my Yeshiva library.  I pointed that out, and Harvey then said:

>> Sorry copied the wrong reference..  The references are to a 15th century
>> Talmud, that is in Aramaic, and Hebrew... and was not translated into
>> english.  The talmudic quotes are references to R.Yoden, R.Berachiah,kR.
>> Simeon Ben Yochai, on Genesis, Psalm CX, Zechariah,

First of all, thousands of people all over the world study the Talmud in
Aramaic and Hebrew.  The fact that it's in Aramaic and Hebrew is no excuse not
to give a citation.  At least not for a "scholar."

Seperately, I pointed out that there is no Talmud quote anything like Harvey
gave referring to the verses (Gen, Ps, Zac) that he gave.  I did my research,
using texts that I have at home (and I'm not even a "scholar"), and there is
not a Talmud quote on those verses like the one he gave.

Now, just for clarification, I certainly see the references to Tanach that
Harvey has given.  What I ask for over and over, and what seems not to exist,
is a reference to the _Talmud_ quote that he gave.  It's very simple really.
There are standard notations for citations into both the Babylonian and
Jerusalem Talmuds -- the former gives a tractate, page number, and side of
page, and the latter gives tractate name and chapter and mishna numbers.

Now, it seems that Harvey doesn't understand the difference between citations
in the Tanach and citations in the Talmud, because now he says:

> I don't understand Bruce i gave you the references in Torah and Tanakh for
> you to look up.  are you lazy or something or just plain beligerant...

Yes, Harvey, I looked up the Tanach references you gave, and there is no
Talmud quote referring to those verses.  What I'm asking for, and what you
should be able to give if you're being intellectually honest, is a citation
into the Talmud.

It now seems, however, that Harvey is not giving a quote from the Talmud as we
all know and love it, thousands of copies studied every day, in print for 1500
years, but rather:

> they are from the Talmud as researched by Oxford University in England...

Funny how this works out.  Harvey attempts to bring a definitive proof by
quoting Talmud, and it turns out that the quote is nowhere to be found in any
of the thousands of editions of the Talmud that are studied every day, but
rather from an edition found only at Oxford that Harvey can't get a hold of.

Maybe we should have this discussion when you have a reliable quote and
citation.

> And you are being very intellectually dishonest Bruce, as you know the
> references i gave you are in fact in the Talmud, and we will pull them out
> for all to see.  But i bet you won't apolygize thats for sure.

Harvey, I have looked up your citation in the copy of the Talmud I have at
home (in the original Aramaic/Hebrew).  I have looked in the Tanach
cross-references to Talmud that I have at home (in the original Hebrew).  I
have looked at other places in the Talmud I have at home that may have
something similar (in Aramaic/Hebrew).  I have gone out and looked in English
translation editions to see if they have something different than the original
Aramaic/Hebrew.  I've done my research, all in original sources.  

All you've done is referred to an edition in Oxford that is unavailable and
doesn't exist anywhere else, and for which you are unable to give a real
Talmud citation (not Tanach citation, Harvey, Talmud citation).  When you've
done enough research to give a citation into the Talmud (tractate and
page/side or chapter/mishna), then we can have a real discussion.  Until then
you don't have any facts.

People on the net say you're a "scholar."  That's why I expect a citation into
the Talmud (tractate and page/side or chapter/mishna) when you give a quote.
Claiming as an excuse that it's in Aramaic/Hebrew is no excuse for a
"scholar," and claiming that it's in an edition that noone has a copy of
(including yourself, who gave the quote in the first place) makes your whole
"proof" look silly.


Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu