From: tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 09:36:00 GMT


>   Ken/Ryu need only pound the roudhouse button - they'll win everytime.  

I think it's more even than that.  Of course, Bison may decide to forward
sweep instead, but that's another matter entirely.

>>I've seen this happen way too many times.  The fact that most of the arcades
>>around here are (unfortunately) no-throw no-tick doesn't help much.
> 
>  True.

I understand that the "no tick, no throw" arcades such as the ones we have 
are the norm for both the US and Australia.  You mention that Bison's
torpedo/throw is no harder to reverse than short-short-throw, but it
seems that short-short-throw is blatantly a "tick" whereas Bisons'
get away with torpedo throw.  I think this is one of the major reasons
why Bison is perceived to be a cheap character - he ticks regularly,
even in non-ticking arcades.  (At least in my experience).

>>>3)  He is far enough away after kick that you should be able to EASILY
>>>    reverse throw (especially with Honda's awesome extended range)
>>
>>Honda was an example.  Let's say it was Sagat, who's throwing range is 
>>pitiful.  Remember, M. Bison suffers almost no freeze penalty after
>>this (by all accounts) pounder of a move.

>    Sagat could TU or Tiger Knee Bison.  If Bison has all his moves down -
>our newbie Sagat knows atleast one move also.  (we are assuming these guys
>are of equal skill).

Comparing the Tiger Uppercut to the scissor kick in terms of difficulty is 
just not on.  It takes a couple of months to be able to uppercut reflexively
and with precision.  The torpedo motion takes a couple of days on the outside.

So what if the Sagat player can fireball?  These pass over/under a
torpedoing Bison.  Yet again, the onus is on the Sagat player not to 
make one single mistake.  Every error costs him a sizable chunk of
energy.

>   One of the main reasons people bitch about Bison is because we didn't
>have all of SFII to learn and create counter-ticks...so we don't have easy
>answers for newbies.      

The real reason people bitch about Bison is he's too damn powerful for
opponents in the low-medium skill range.  You might not be aware of 
this because you started out on the classic, and were already good 
enough to defeat Bison once the championship edition arrived.  Although
I also started out on the classic, the sheer weight of complaints
about Bison from TCE SF2'ers speaks volumes.

> 6?!?!  I though I already informed everyone if you turn around while blocking
>you should take no more that 4 ticks tops.

Well it's still more than (HK) 0!!  And remember, one "tick" from a blocked
torpedo is equivalent to 3 or 4 from a blocked fireball.

>>Any Bison can flame/throw you, only a good Ken will combo you.  I gues now
>>you're going to tell me how you learnt to smoothly buffer triple dragon
>>punches in half an hour.  Get real, Ken and Ryu are characters that take
>>*practice* before you get the payoff, unlike M. Bison.

>   Practice?  We are talking about the land of newbies, right?  Hell, I could
>show a newbie in about 5 minutes how to tick a newbie Bison to death.  As
>a newbie Bison he wouldn't know how to reverse.

You said Bison's cheesy torpedo routines can't begin to compare with
Ken's 4-hit routine.  I was merely pointing out the relative skill
levels required to execute each of these manouvres.

>>>   Do me a favor and attack Bison from the proper distance with flying 
>>>roundhouse kicks.  

Yet again, the onus is on the non-Bison guy to get it right.  I know jumping
in from the right distance sounds like a simple task, but any sort of
positional play is _difficult_ for beginners.  Even if they know what the
correct range is, that doesn't mean they'll be able to get themselves
into that position (what with Bison screaming backwards and forwards 
with constant torpedoes...).  Put simply I think consistantly finding the
optimum range to attack Bison is harder than it is to constantly torpedo.

>>I'm sorry, but an intermediate Sagat/Blanka/Ken/Balrog/Vega will lose
>>to an intermediate Bison.  These guys need to be able to whip off their
>>special moves without fail to win (eg. DP, Uppercut).

>   Well, we already said Bison can whip off his special moves without fail -
>I would assume the opponent can also.  Sure, if one guy has his special down -
>and the other guy doesn't, the guy who can do actual moves will win.  Pretty
>stupid argument.

Who says Bison has to be consistant?  If he screws up a torpedo then oh no,
he does a standing punch from half the screen away.  But if the defender
screws up, he takes a shitload of damage.

>   You know how long it takes for someone who has *never touched an SF j-stick*
>to learn a sonic boom?!?!  

Yes!  Guile was my first character.  I managed a sonic boom on about the 3rd
round that I tried it.  It took me about 3 days to get >75% reliability.
As to learning _when_ to sonic boom, that took a lot longer.

>   In all your points you essentially assumed the anti-Bison player was worse.
>You seem to think Bison's moves are "easiers".  And that Ken is "hard".  The
>sonic boom is no easier than a fireball (harder probably) and the razor kick
							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is no easier than a DP.  
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh come off it!  The razor kick is just a sonic boom sideways, in fact as
a newbie I was able to razor kick before I could sonic boom.  Your
assumption is dead wrong.  Most Guile scrubs can razor kick, few Ken 
scrubs can dragon punch.  When you combine this with the fact that Bison's
torpedo requires no real strategic timing but the defenders special move
_does_ (as a counter to the torpedo, eg. TU), then you have a one-sided 
match when the players aren't pros.

--
Tim Morris
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2