HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: an4405@anon.penet.fi (Physics Smurf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:40 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service

Hello there!

I was just wondering why General Electric decided to revive the Gattling
principle when it designed the M230 Minigun. Was there any specific
military reason for its re-introduction or did they just think it a good
idea at the time?

Also, are there any US
(ex) military personnel out there who have fired a minigun? How does the
fire rate of it compare to a Hughes chain gun?

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From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Class III Question
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:45:13 GMT


I've gotten the strong impression that some participants in this newsgroup
are owners of and/or dealers in the nifty stuff that requires BATF approval
for ownership.

That being the case, have any of you seen, or seen advertised, any Finnish
Suomi M.31 SMGs? Is "Machine Gun News" a good source for less-well-known
firearms like the Suomi? It seems that SGN is a bit sparse.

Thanks in advance.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."

[MODERATOR:  I have never seen one up close, but they are supposedly one
of the more rugged SMGs ever built.  Perhaps some of our friends and readers
in Finland could comment?  As for availability here, it doesn't surprize me
that SGN is sparse.   MGN is probably the only way to go there.  For that,
maybe a reader who subscribes could comment on any listings.  (Or maybe we
don't have too much such readers?  I would guess that anyone who handloads
much for their SMG doesn't have much time to read net news...)]
From: kilman2y@fiu.edu (Yevgeny Kilman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: what does sks mean?
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:09 GMT
Organization: Florida International University, Miami

In article <9301031541.AA26830@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting) writes:
#In <19932.4199.14096@dosgate> patrick.eves@canrem.com (Patrick Eves) writes:
#
##CC>Does anyone know the meaning of the SKS designation of the SKS model 56?
##Hi, Chris,
#
##SKS = Samozaridnya Karabina Simonova
#
##The last two words translate to "Carbine Simonov", Simonov being the name
##of the designer.  As for the first word, maybe try posting it in one of
##the language conferences...;)
#
#I'm not familiar with the exact word offhand, but in Russian, the prefix
#Samo- is roughly equivalent to "self-" or "auto-" whence I would suppose
#that first word translates to something roughly equivalent to "automatic,"
#in the substantive sense we apply to many firearms.
#
#I have no idea what "zaridnya" refers to; is this really an accurate trans-
#literation of the word?
#
#Hope this helps,
#-Sting
(sig deleted)

SKS = Samozariadni Carabin Simonova

zariad = a load
zariajat' = to load

Samozariadi = (aprox.) semiautomatic (smth. like selfloading?)

Gene.
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Speaking of SKS's, any manuals/documentation out there?
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:23 GMT
Organization: "Well, a head on top, an arm on each side, two legs...."

I know, it's not real complex, but I like manuals.  Does anyone have
such a thing, and/or are there any aftermarket references?  (In English,
please.)

Happy to pay copying/mailing costs, of course...  Thanks!

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex or ?
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:49 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <1993Jan5.040934.22120@ra.msstate.edu>, dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
(Donald R. Newcomb) says:
#
#
#The problem with this is that I don't understand why Pyrodex has to
#cause/promote all this rusting. Pyrodex is a smokeless bulk (volumetric)
#powder with some additive that causes it to smoke. Now there is nothing
#new about bulk powders. In _Hatcher's_Notebook_, Gen. Hatcher discusses
#powders that are loaded volume for volume the same as black powder. One
#such powder was Schultze powder (p.317). In _Cartridges_of_the_World_
#(Ed. 4), Barnes discusses bulk powders and mentions that DuPont made
#bulk shotgun powder into the 1960s (p. 326-327). Now, I presume that
#these powders did not cause or promote rusting in the way that Pyrodex
#seems to. It must be possible to make a black powder substitute that
#does not create rust. What is needed is for someone to market an
#old fashioned volumetric equivalent of black powder without the rust.
#
#Perhaps its time for a letter to Hodgdon.
#--
   Pyrodex is not a smokeless powder (either nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin
based).  According to an American Rifleman profile of the powder and Hodgon
several years ago, its ingredients are not dissimilar to black powder.

   Also, as far as I know, bulk smokeless powders were designed to be
used in cartridge firearms,  primarily shotguns and were
measured in equal volume to black powder.

   It is GOSPEL among black powder shooter that only black powder
or pyrodex is to be used in muzzleloaders (which includes cap and
ball revolvers.  Although I have read that in the late 19th century
and early 20 th century that some muzzle loading rifle users were
using semi-smokeless powders.  Like many of the posters on this thread,
I would like to see more information as to why no smokeless loads
can ever be used in muzzleloaders, and what happens when judicious
loads of fast burning smokeless powders are used under experimental
conditions (firing remotely).But until much more is known, if you
want to fill the chambers of your cap and ball revolver with Bullseye
or Unique, go ahead, its your hand, your face and your gun.  Just don't
run out afterwards (after you get out of the hospital) and hire a lawyer
to sue Hercules Powder Co., Ruger et al.



Michael Gordon
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex  or ?
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:32 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1993Jan5.031846.19639@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#In article <1993Jan2.192534.27149@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
##Does Pyrodex cause this rust or is it the caps? Are there ways to get
##around the rusting? Is there a black-powder substitute that works like
##smokeless powder? Advice & opinions appreciated.
# 
##[MODERATOR: I don't think I'd recommend throwing in any Unique ... I
##have no experiences along those lines, but it doesn't sound prudent to
##me.  For what its worth.   Anyway, I just want to add a request that
##those of you who answer Donald's post might also comment in general on
##the interchangeability of black powder and pyrodex.  Santa Claus brought
##a reproduction 1851 navy colt to the magnum household, and your humble
##moderator will be playing with coal burners for the first time... ]
#
#I've been drooling over a Stainless Ruger or Remington clone for a 
#while, but have found nowhere to shoot one ...
#
#For what it's worth:  For several Black Powder cartridges listed in
#'Cartridges of the World' the author lists 4198 as a powder used for
#smokeless loadings.  If you like, I can look up a couple and post
#the representative loadings ... X grains of BP vs Y grains of 4198 ...
#
NONONONO!!!  This is the path to radical home-made surgery, to
nicknames like "Stump" and "Lefty", to the pianist-coveted eight-octave
reach.  This is the way to blow up guns, bigtime!  

When 4198 is used to replace black powder in a **CARTRIDGE**, the
powder lies loosely in a cavity of a fixed size, and _can_ burn
roughly as it was designed to do.

When _any_ smokeless powder is used in a muzzle-loader or cap-and-ball
revolver, the load is _always_ compressed _heavily_ (at least in
comparison to conventional compressed smokeless loads).  In this
environment, smokeless powder, even 4198, behaves _very_ badly.
Pressure curves turn truly ugly, and firearms designed for black-
powder pressure suddenly occupy a _lot_ more space.

Essentially, put _any_ smokeless in your front-stuffer and you die,
or wish you had.  BADBADBAD!!  DON'T!!

Sorry to shout, but this is important.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:04:50 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


 AMT Lightning, full auto and a Ruger (gak) 10-22 full auto, sound
 supressed rifle.

 Gak?  A friend of mine has a suppressed, full auto Ruger 10/22.  450
 RPM cyclic rate, and the only noise you hear is the bolt clicking
 back and forth in the receiver.  It's an amazing toy, particularly
 with the laser.

 The 30 round Ram-Line magazines are the most reliable high capacity
 jobs.  The 10-round rotary magazines *never* jam, but they're only
 ten rounds.  <sigh>  We can destroy stuff all afternoon on twenty or
 thirty bucks' worth of .22LR, and we can do it without earplugs or
 earmuffs. You can even shoot it in the basement if it's raining
 outside.

 Doug's has the full-length barrel, but Norrell Arms used to make them
 in 6" barrel with a pistol grip.  In that configuration, it's no
 longer than and considerably lighter than a 10" barrel revolver.

 Unfortunately, since the NRA sold the full-auto owners down the river
 in 1986, not all that many of the pistols were made.  They're very
 nice toys.  Doug paid $550 for his in late '85, plus Uncle's $400.
From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:49 GMT


In article <1993Jan5.053650.15938@fuug.fi>, an4405@anon.penet.fi (Physics
Smurf) wrote:

# I was just wondering why General Electric decided to revive the Gattling
# principle when it designed the M230 Minigun. Was there any specific
# military reason for its re-introduction or did they just think it a good
# idea at the time?
# 
 
I haven't been in the military or fired one of these but as I understand
the principal advantage to the mini-gun is the higher possible rates of
fire. (3000 rpm?)  This is accomplished by being able to eject the spent
brass and reload "off-line" i.e. the time it takes to do this is affects
the rate of fire and the mini-gun in effect divides this by 5 or 6 ???!!!  

For an awesome display with some explanation of both the mini-gun and chain
gun buy Dillon's Machine Gun Magic Video for $20 1-800-421-7632.  You will
not regret it.

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting straight up
Date: 10 Jan 93 04:34:44 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1993Jan7.170226.3782@btree.uucp> btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
<In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
<#I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
<#town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do. 

	This "tradition" seems to vary from place to place quite a
	bit; it happens in Albuquerque (200 miles/320 km north of
	here) but not in El Paso (40 miles/65 km south of here) much.
	Different parts of Los Angeles suffer from this stupidity
	to varying extent.

	What's worse, apparently quite a few folks don't fire
	at 90 degrees to the Earth but more on the order of
	45 degrees; this will bring their bullet to earth at
	a much faster velocity and it will carry much farther.

	A local Sheriff's Deputy, 2 years ago, went briefly to 
	jail and lost his job when he greeted the new year by firing
	into the air outside of his mobile home. To compound
	his stupidity, he used his service pistol to do so; a
	neighbor dialed 911....

<   Hatcher's Notebook has an interesting chapter on ammunition fired
<   vertically.  It's worth a read.

	For the record, General Hatcher notes that the English,
	German and US military all estimated their service
	ammunition (.303, 7,92x57, 30-06 respectively) typically
	reached an altitude of around 9,000 feet when fired straight
	up from a rifle or machinegun from sea-level.

	Where the spent bullets hit the earth depended on wind
	direction and velocity at the varying altitudes; "winds
	aloft", as any pilot knows, may be 180 degrees different
	from winds on the surface. Hatcher notes bullets falling
	within a few feet of the gunners, several hundred yards
	(or meters, approximately) away or completely out of sight...
	shooting straight up isn't a good plan, obviously.
From: nandrews%dewey@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Remington .30-06 model 742 or 7400 wanted
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:34 GMT
Organization: New Mexico State University

I am in the market for a nice Remington model 742 or 7400 semiautomatic .30-06  
rifle in good to new condition.  Please let me know if you have you'd like to  
part with.
From: callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (The best place for a feminist is in another person's lab. -- James D. Watson, _The_Double_Heli)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: trivia
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:36 GMT
Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services

In article <1993Jan4.132535.29854@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes...
#In article <harri.726002035@camelot> harri@camelot.bradley.edu (Thomas Friday) writes:
##
##the cartridge is called, coincidentally, .30 M1 Carbine.. :-) ammo is
##widely available, so dont worry about making brass.. the case has no
##shoulder; it looks almost straight-walled.  i believe with a 110 grain
##bullet velocities would typically be around 1900 fps; i.e. not much of
##a rifle cartridge, but pretty hot for a handgun. (revolvers in this
##caliber were/are(?) produced by a few companies i believe)..
##
# 
#Ruger made the Blackhawk single action revolver in .30 carbine.
#I believe someone (Automag?) made or makes a semi-auto pistol
#for it. I'd be surprised if Thompson-Center hadn't chambered
#their single shot for it at some point. The sound from high
#velocity smaller bore (revolvers at least) chambered handguns
#isn't always pleasant to hear. Muzzle flash and blast also
#tends to be more obvious.

The IAI Automag III is a semi-auto chambered in .30 Carbine, according 
to the Guns&Ammo 1991 Annual. It also says that the T/C Contender
was available in "18 calibers," but that's all. It listed the calibers
for the T/C Contender Hunter, but .30 Carbine wasn't one of them.

				James
(My hosts system's _almost_ back up; now, I'm stuck using VNews on
a VAX...:-( but, it is better than nothing.)

James P. Callison	Microcomputer Coordinator	OU Law Library
callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu   /\   callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm hand gun questions
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:42 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <C0M0zF.5EJ@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mhickey@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (No One) writes:
#After waiting years for this moment I am now faced with a nearly
#impossible decicion.  I am about to turn 21 and I can finally 
#register for a firearms permit and purchase my first pistol.

is this 21 nationwide? drink and shoot wiht 21? :-)

#I am certain that I want to get a 9mm semi-auto.  But there are 
#a dizzying number of them out on the market.  I honestly don't
#know where to begin.
#
#I have heard a great deal about Glocks, Barretas (sp?), Rugers,
#ans Brownings.  But most of the info I have recieved has been via
#advertisements.  
#
where are the moderator's warnings on flame wars???

ok, here goes:

check out glock, sig and h&k

	[MODERATOR: ... all at once ... ]


cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting Straight Up
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:14:26 GMT
Organization: Norwegian School of Economics

jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

## 	If we step into the Physics room for a moment perhaps we can sort this
## one out.  Remember the simple fact that energy is conserved in a system. 
## At the moment the bullet leaves the chamber, we'll call that zero elevation,
## it has a certain amount of kinetic energy from the burning of the powder.
## As it climbs, this kinetic energy is converted to potential energy at such a
## rate that, at the apex of its flight (the top), Kinetic energy =0 and potential
## energy = kinetic energy at elevation zero.  So it stops, and now it starts to
## fall.  As it falls, it accelerates and the potential energy is turned back into
## kinetic energy.  Assuming that it went straight up and fell straight down, when
## it reached the chamber of the gun on the way back down, elevation zero, it
## would have the exact same amount of kinetic energy as when it left.  
## 
## 	What does this mean?  Well, if you shot the bullet, and then stepped
## into the spot you fired the gun from, when the bullet came down, you'd be dead.
## 
## 	Of course this little exercise does ignore a few things though.  Some 
## energy will be lost due to air friction and converted to heat, though not much
## if it is a very aerodynmic bullet.  Also, the shot has to go straight up and
## straight down as well.
## 


Not so. The angle of elevation has nothing to do with it, except for the
special case where phi = 0 degrees, whereupon the whole question becomes
academic. In a system as you describe it, energy is conserved even if the
bullet is transported horizontally, i.e. the bullet hits the ground some
distance from the shooter, as long as the altitudes at the two poins are
the same.
Moreover, the air resistance is a factor very much to be reckoned with,
as any ballistics table will show.
A factory .45 handgun round with a 185grs bullet is listed in my
ballistics tables with a muzzle velocity of 1.000 fps and a corresponding
muzzle energy of 410 ft.lbs.
The same bullet, measured at 50 yds. downrange now has a velocity of 940
fps, and 890 fps @100yds. The corresponding energy levels are 360 ft.lbs
@50yds. and 325 ft.lbs @100yds. This energy is lost solely to air
resistance, and it is therefore not correct to say that energy is conserved
within the system, as a major part of it will be lost to the surroundings.
I'd guess the 'major part' to be between 40 and 70 percent, anybody care
to solve some differential equations and come up with a closer approximation?

regards,

ragnar
From: rhino@wpi.WPI.EDU (Joe Trudelle)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm hand gun questions
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:17:47 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

As far as the 21 to shoot and drink, in CT you can get a pistol permit at
18 but can't buy a pistol till 21.  Many people have questioned this since
why is it that it is possible for someone over 21 who may have no clue how
to handle a pistol and can't carry it anywhere but their home or a gunshop to
be able to go into a gunshop and two weeks later pick-up their gun but as an
underage permit holder with a minimum of 3 hours instruction and a state and
federal background check you can't buy one.  The lawmakers are however trying
to fix this problem by making it illegal for anyone under 21 to carry a gun.
I also have found out that here in MA you can't get a pistol permit till 21.
Just adding my $0.02 worth.

[MODERATOR:  Editorial comments to t.p.g., thanks ... ]
From: ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: INFO: 5.45 PSM bottleneck pistol ammo
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:45 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

C96@VM.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Alexander EICHENER) writes:

#5.45 mm PSM (Russian)
#PSM is the abbreviation for "pistolet samozarjadnyj malojnbaritnyj"
#(using continental European transliteration for the cyrillic characters).

#Data for ammunition:
#Bottleneck rimless pistol round with a FMJ flat nose bullet. The
#bullet core is a steel/lead composite (front steel, back lead).
#One cartridge weighs about 4.8 grams.

#Overall cartridge length: 26.00 mm
#Case length:              18.00 mm
#Mouth diameter:            5.90 mm
#Bottom diameter:           7.15 mm
#Rim diameter:              7.15 mm
#Bullet diameter:           5.45 mm
#Bullet weight:             2.4 - 2.6 grams
#Vo:                        315 m/sec (quite exactly the same as a .32 H & R
#Eo:                        129 Joule                               Magnum)

There have been obviously been write-ups on this cartridge in a
few of the european gun mag's, since "Target Gun" also had an 
article on it.  Apparently, despite what seem unremarkable 
ballistics the bullet has amazing penetration  -  the whole
gun-and-cartridge package may have been designed as an assassination
weapon to defeat body armour.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:10 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

In article <1993Jan4.130458.7348@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
#From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
#Subject: guns vs. K9s
#Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:24 GMT
#A past experience of a relative of mine prompts me to ask for in-
#sights.
#
#Consider the following scenario:
#
#You are confronted with a very  unfriendly  and  rather  big  dog
#(growling,  foam  at  the mouth, suspected rabies) in your garden
#(so carry laws are not an issue).  What gun/ammo would  you  like
#to have with you?
#
#Would you deem a rifle necessary?  IMHO even big dogs  are  small
#enough to allow a quick killing by using a handgun.
#
#My (rather un-educated) guess is .357 Magnum 125grs SJHP in a  6"
#revolver.    Some might consider that a bit over-powered, but I'd
#rather err on the safe side.
#
#What about shotguns?  Would you think a 12ga #4  or  #0  buckshot
#load  is  too  strong?  We don't want to litter the premises with
#body parts.
#
#All ideas appreciated.

	Rabies is a REAL issue in this part of the world, but not perhaps in 
Europe.  A dog with rabies can be spotted in an instant due to all the signs
that are well-known.    Weapon of choice is a cylinder-bored 12-guage with 
what we call "Triple A" or "SSG" -- basically buckshot.   If time permits, a 
backup would be a 455 Webley 6" revolver stuffed with butter-soft 260 grain 
hollow-based wadcutters *reversed*.
	A slug load to open the batting might be interesting but only if the
setting is in a rural area on account of over-penetration.
	BTW, in a case of suspected rabies make sure that the animal's
brain (or what's left of it) is kept in a safe place -- the vet authorities
run tests on brain tissue samples to determine conclusively whether or not
rabies is present.

Hope no one has to run into this problem for real!!
Cheers,
Keith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If we pay dogfood salespeople more than we   :  Dept of Management
 do teachers, we should not be surprised if   :  Rhodes University
 our dogs eat like kids, and our kids end     :  Grahamstown, 6140
 up reading like dogs."                       :  Rep of South Africa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~