From: barb@sq.sq.com (Barbara Burrows)
Subject: Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long)
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 16:17:21 GMT

In article <25798@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
>tms@adpgate.UUCP (Tina Sansom) writes:
>|> I don't believe
>|> in spanking, but my SO does.  What do parents in this situation do?
>
>When my husband and I first got married, we both thought spanking
>was a reasonable method of discipline.  After a while of misc.kids
>reading (I've never been the lurker type :-), I became convinced
>spanking was not an appropriate method of discipline.  Several
>regular misc.kids parents convinced me of this, using primarily the
>following arguments:
>
>1) Spanking isn't a logical consequence of any action.  Our society
>doesn't use physical punishments.  Children (and adults) learn best
>from consequences that follow logically.
>2) I don't want my child learning that the way to get someone to do
>what you want them to do is to hit them
>3) How can you teach children not to hit if you hit them?

	I'll never forget seeing a Mother and her two children
	in a grocery store help reassure my beliefs that hitting
	wasn't such a wonderful tactic.  The kids were about
	four and six years old.  The older one had just reached 
	out and smacked the younger one.  The Mother grabbed the
	older one and said (rather violently I thought) "Don't 
	(smack) hit (smack) your (smack) brother (smack)".  All
	the while smacking the kid to punctuate the point I suppose.
	Pretty effective to hit so as to discourage hitting.  


>4) How can you teach children to be respectful if you don't respect
>them?
>
>I was never convinced, and still am not, that occasional spankings
>cause lifelong emotional problems, increased crime rates, etc.  (I
>am not talking about beatings or serious abuse, rather a swat on the
>butt with one's hand).  I am, however, convinced, that spanking my
>children wouldn't garner the results I want: happy, well-adjusted,
>law-abiding adults, and so I don't intend to spank.
>
>I came to this realization prior to becoming pregnant, and my
>husband was still in the occasional spanking camp.  After we've
>talked about it, and I've given the reasons that convinced me -- and
>they convinced him as well--we've agreed not to hit Jordan as a form
>of discipline.  Two people who disagree who both want the best for
>their child can come to an agreement on this issue.
>
>--Beth Weiss
>bweiss@cs.arizona.edu
>(Mama to Jordan, 3.5 months)


	Yep, we've agreed we're not comfortable with the spanking
	concept either.  Neither one of us were spanked as kids.
	Barry says he can remember one or two occassions when
	his first two were toddlers and doing something he felt
	was really dangerous and not responding that he swatted
	them once on a diapered bum and took them away from the
	danger.  They, apparently, didn't repeat the offense and
	are certainly not violent kids (they're 17 and 12, females)
	and are completely well-adjusted, happy, responsive,
	caring kids.  

	I think there is a difference between regular reliance on
	spanking to enforce discipline and a swat once or twice
	at the toddler stage.

	My fear is that if I begin including hitting as a form
	of discipline (minor) that it may escalate.  As I said
	before, I was never hit as a kid.  And yet, Jordan and
	I had a particularly trying morning about two months 
	ago (he was 11 months old, quite mobile, walking) which
	culminated in him trying to pull stereo equipment off
	a shelf.....I tried to distract him....I moved him away...
	and moved him away....and moved him away....distracted him...
	and finally there were the two of us.....him grabbing
	at the stereo....me taking his hands away....him grabbing
	and I smacked his hand away.  Whoa! I was shocked that
	I had done that (still am).  Then I was shocked at his response.
	He immediately smacked my hand back.  I picked him up
	and took us both outside to look at the birdies.  The
	situation was defused.  As I write this I feel my dismay
	at how I reacted (I can find lots of excuses to reason
	it away - but I'm supposed to be the adult here!).  It
	was a real learning experience for me.  I get upset by
	violence.....I'm a fairly gentle person....I respect
	an individual rights greatly....I've never been hit...
	and when I was pushed to the wall....I reached out and
	smacked his hand.  Yikes!  By-the-way, he went right
	back at it when we came in.  

	I am opposed to spanking....more so now.  We've got
	friends who, we were shocked to discover, still spank
	their 14 year old daughter!  This girl has now started
	some behaviour which doesn't bode well for the future.
	The spanking has not been effective....in fact, is 
	probably detrimental.  There is no respect here.  I don't
	care what you want....do it our way...or else. I can't 
	imagine spanking someone this old....or anyone actually...
	We talked together at length about this because obviously
	this relationship needs drastic (is it too late?) work.
	We tried to imagine a situation where we would actually
	have to spank Barry's daughters (17 and 12) or my sister
	(14) and the whole idea is ludicrous.  So far, there
	has never been any situation that we couldn't talk about...
	see both sides....if the decision is a no to something
	they want we've been able to explain why we feel that way,
	perhaps offer an alternative, and have our position understood 
	and accepted as reasonable.  There was one situation in which 
	we listened to counter arguments which made sense and so 
	changed our minds (we can't always be right).  But
	there wasn't a sense of giving in....or being wishy washy
	(we're quite disciplined actually)....just mutual respect.
	The kids know our rules or opinions aren't arbitrary and that
	we're not abusing power.  And we know that they understand 
	values, are sensible, respect us and are themselves
	worthy of respect.  Why would we bring physical discipline
	into the picture?
	
	Oh boy....I've done it again.....run on mouth syndrome.
	I'll stop by saying the spanking issue is a controversial
	one.  I'm comfortable with my position which is opposed
	to it.....yet, it's difficult to not fall into an "easy"
	reaction.  I feel for everyone who wants desparately to
	do a good job in raising great kids to be great adults.
	It's a tough job....but someone's got to do it.

	Anyway, I think being a parent is teaching me a lot about
	myself....and is certainly testing my beliefs on a lot
	of levels.  I can only pray that we're able to do as good
	a job with our little challenger as with the older two.
	God give us strength (and wisdom).

	We don't want to ever resort to hitting Jordan....for 
	whatever reason.  It's helped me (since the incident 
	I mentioned) when he gets into one of his
	persistent (so much better than being called stubborn,
	don't you think? 8-}) moods to say, "Okay, bucko, I'm
	the adult here....we're not going to do this anymore...
	instead...." whatever.  Whatever could be changing 
	location.....changing mood (hugging....tickling....laughing)...
	changing activities....whatever....often, I've found...the
	behaviour is a bizarre way of trying to get more attention...
	any attention....good or bad....so, I provide good...hugging,
	playing....kissing....he's definitely kissable.  

	Those little rascals can be trying....but....I sort of
	like his independence and his stubb...oops,...persistence...
	channeled properly these are great attributes and I wouldn't
	want to take away his spirit.

	I'll stop now that I've added my twelve cents worth.  Sorry,
	I should have put (long) in the subject title.  It's just
	that I never intend to go on and on and on.  It just seems
	to happen! 8-}


					|
					|  Everyday....in every way...
Barbara					|  I'm getting better....
					|  and better.
					|
					|  (I can hope, can't I?)