From: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.amateur-comp,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:04:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendleton) says:

>From article <1g3klqINNb62@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, by au329@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ronda Hauben):
>> 
>> 
>>     continuation of response
>
>>>Communications is critical. But, usenet is not a good source of solid
>>>information. It is a good place to get started on finding what you need.
>>>
>> I agree that usenet isn't always adequate as a source of 
>> info, but it sure beats any other media I know of during these times.
>
>Oh yes, it can be wonderful. How else could you get reports live from
>Red Square during a coup? 
>
Were there reports live from Red Square during the coup? 
Can you describe what the coverage was? I wasn't on usenet or the 
internet at the time.

>> Why do you say that it isn't a good source of solid info? In terms
>> of technical info I have found it very valuable, and I stand corrected
>> that its a solid source of info on its own, for sometimes things are
>> posted that just mirror what the mass media claims, but at other
>> times there is a real questioning of the "lines" being put out by`
>> the mass media - so at least the questions are raised.
>> 
>> But usenet has the potential to be a source of solid info when 
>> the people who have access to it and time to post are the people
>> with accurate, first hand or independently researched info on
>> what they are posting about.
>
>Exactly. Most of the time the people with the time to post are not the
>people with the accurate, first hand or independently researched
>information.
>
But there are times when such is the case and usenet has then helped
to make a real breakthrough.

Thus there is a need to have usenet be available more broadly to 
those with accurate, first hand or independently researched information
and I have found that the freenets that make access to usenet possible
are the beginning of having this happen.

But maybe some of the breakthrough that usenet represents is that 
there are people on it who understand the need for such accurate
information.

I have spent years trying to deal with the U.S. Congress, the local
legislature, the Courts in Michigan, and local representatives and 
senators and have asked them to look at the real situation going
on under the wind of "training". And they have all refused - despite
the fact that I have gotten legal decisions acknowledging the 
impossibility of companies like Ford have 51% control over what
public education is offered with public funds.

Also, I have gotten acknowledge decisions as from the Michigan
Employment Relations Commission that having ones union dues
paid off by an employer to a union is worthy of being heard
and that who one's employer is is a serious question that has
to be adjudicated. Yet the administrative judge in the case
just ignored the directive he was given to give me a hearing
where these issues were heard.

Thus there are those sectors of our society, I have found, the
sectors responsible for the poltiical direction of the society,
who are only interested in promoting a predetermined "line"
and have no interest in any of the details of what actually 
results from their legislation.

And there are those sectors of society who are hurt by this 
predetermined "line" and have a reason to want and need 
accurate information.

Thus it's helpful that usenet both has people on it who respect
accurate information and who are willing and able to provide it.

I called the Congressional aide for Senator Paul Simon - the 
Aide's name is Brian Kennedy - on Wednesday when I heard that
there was to be a hearing conducted by Senator Simon about
the State of the Unions and Training.

When I finally managed to speak to Brian Kennedy after he put me
off and then failed to call me back -- after great efforts - 
he said that he was the person writing the legislation dealing
with unions and training, but he was not interested in hearing
anything I had to say. Instead he was only interested in saying
that he knew what the problems were.

So he wasn't interested in any accurate information. 

Yet he and Senator Simon write the legislation that has led
to the horrors of the current "training" wind as the policy
of legislation brought by Congress.

Also, Brian Kennedy said that it is ok for a public school system
to be made into a private contractor for a private corporation
like Ford. That is like connecting apples and oranges. A public
school system is a government entity that is governed by 
constitutional and legislative laws that supposedly make it a 
sovereign entity. In the case I was in this supposed private
contractor bought all kinds of equipment and supplies for the 
private company Ford using its tax exemption number and then 
Ford owned this equipment and supplies. Also, this so
called private contractor was used to bring public eduction
funds to pay Ford to run the supposed public education program
at the Dearborn Engine Plant.

Obviously neither Senator Simon nor his Aide Brian Kennedy
has any interest in the quagmire they had created via their
privativzing of public education  via the Job Training
Partnership Act.

And when I asked Brian Kennedy if there was an email address I 
could use to send him information about what his legislation
had led to, he told me that there was a network for the Senators
but I couldn't have access to it.

And further, President Elect Clinton has just announced
that Robert Reich, the architect of some of this "training"
wind is his nominee for Secretary of Labor.

So the trouble is to be spread, the creators of the trouble rewarded
and any effort to ask for an examination of the real conditions
is to be treated hostily. Brian Kennedy hung up on me.

The point of the example above is that accurate information is
a real treasure and those who respect and understand its need
are a treasure -- and that the current economic troubles have
a direct source in the distain that the current ruling elite
have for accurate information.


>I realised, after reading your last reply, that we have different
>views of usenet because our needs for information are different. When

Why do you feel that our needs for information are different?
I realize that I am not only intersted in technical information, though
there are times it is essential to me too as when there was a bug
in elm and I couldn't get to my mail and knowing that it was a 
bug that was responsible made it possible for me to be able to deal with
it, but I realize that since I have been thrown out of my job teaching
computer programming, I have less of a need for technical information
than I would if I hadn't lost that job.

But I also find I have a need for information about other aspects
of the society, and that I can provide some information which I have
gained through a hard battle, but which other people haven't had the
experience to know (and hopefully won't have to). Also, I have found
that there is important information available on usenet that helps
to do some of the research and writing that I want to be able to do.
For example, I had discounted the Arpanet as an important advance
because I didn't know much about it but that it was under the DoD.
Then I found out that it was an important breakthrough from people
on the Net who described it. That led me to do some research which
was surprising and valuable.

So I have found the real information available on the net to be a 
treasure.

>I ask a technical question I'm lucky if one person replies and very
>lucky if that person actually understands the question.
>
>When I do find someone who understands the question it can lead to a
>very valuable exchange.
>
Is that because what you are dealing with is an area that not
many people know about?

>My last question got me one answer, and it was wrong. I wound up
>spending ~$100 dollars on books (no they weren't in the library) to
>piece together the an answer. 

So are you saying that if you find someone else who has studied the
area you need information in that they are an important resource
which saves you the work and expense to duplicate the work and 
expense they have taken to learn the information? ?
>
>On the other hand, I do answer questions on usenet whenever I can. So,
>if you know less than I do about something. I might look like a great
>info resource. :-)
>
Its helpful that you and other people are willing to help someone
by answering questions. :)  

All of what's needed to deal with usenet can be very intimidating
for someone who doesn't know about how to deal with it. 
So it helps to have those who will answer questions - 
I was surprised at the suggestions in the Unix newsgroup that you
ask someone at your site or read a book before posting a question
there - that makes it hard for someone who is a relative beginner
in unix to get the help to move forward. Mayhbe that's the kind of thing
that the alt.amateur-comp newsgroup can help out with.

>Also, communication by e-mail and net requires reading and writing
>skills that many people don't have. Any number of flame wars have
>started over what one person thought was an interesting play on words
>and another person took as a mortal insult.
>
That's helpful to know about - that it's important to watch one's words.

>I remember what happened when I made a pun using the words "drek" and
>"trek" on the sf.lovers mailing list 10 years ago. I still have scars
>from the flame I took over that. Ever been flamed by a professional
>writer? Ouch.
>
Interesting.

BTW I'd be interested in some sense of what the sf.lovers
and other mailing lists on Arpanet were like  - were you referring
above to the mailing list by that name on arpa? Or was that
when it was gatewayed to usenet?

>>>So, fill me in. What do the teach?
>>>
>> There's a difference between what was taught when the programs for
>> UAW members were begun, and what they were developed into.
>
>Long description of illegal behaviour by Ford Motor Company deleted
>
>So, have you taken this to the ACLU, how about the EFF? Have you filed
>suit? Do you want to organize a usenet letter writing campaign?
>
I did take it to the ACLU andthey took the case while I was still
at work. And they did nothing. In a comparable situation for someone
else with much less of a significant situation, they went and got an
injunction from court. They could have gotten an injunction to 
keep Ford and the UAW and the School Systems from claiming that they
could terminate me for "broadcasting my concerns". 

Then after I was terminated, the ACLU did nothing. When I challenged
that, they had me come to a meeting and they said there was 
nothing to my case as they didn't know who the employer was and then
they dropped the case as something that the ACLU would support claiming
they didn't have enough money to deal with it.

I hadn't tried the EFF. What would that entail do you know? I don't
really know why or how
they might be able to be helpful.

I did file suit, had several lawyers, all of whom were somehow taken
care of an so dropped out of the case for phony reasons, had 5 judges sit
hear the whistleblowers case as each of the judges had a different
reason for disqualifying themselves - went to the NLRB and they refused
jurisdiction and finally it ended up at the Michigan Employment 
Relations Commission where it has sat for 6 years.

I guess I feel that its important for people to know about what happened
with it all as this trouble is being spread now via Reich's appointment
-
Also, it would be good to have whatever help people could give 
with regard to it all as it is both important and frustrating.

I have gotten the 5 minute notice from freenet so I will have to 
end and finish later.

                  ronda

>> activities. (See p. 171 in Cole's book for example where he 
>> describes how Japanese management keeps secret records on workers)
>
>Yeah, I remember how disgusted I was when I found out that a product I
>helped develop was being used to keep track of data entry clerks
>keystroke rate. I have trouble with the idea that people can treat
>people like that. But, then I encountered people who won't work unless
>they are treated like that.
>
>>>Giving all employees access to communications is a very good idea. But
>>>it scares management in hierarchal organizations. I could tell you
>>>stories...
>>>
>> Do you have any idea how people have broken through this block?
>> For example lots of people on usenet read usenet at work - do
>> you have any sense of why this segment of workforce has been able
>> to have access to communications?
>
>The company has to come to believe that communication is valuable.
>
>If you look around, you'll see that most of use that have at work
>usenet access work with computers everyday. The computers are already
>there, they are already connected to a corporate network. The people
>already use e-mail as an everyday tool for getting work done.
>
>Then someone figures out how to get a usenet connection into the site
>and it becomes an invaluable tool before upprer management is even
>aware it's there.
>
>Personally, when I interview for a job I ask if usenet and internet
>access with ftp capability are available. If they aren't, I'm not
>likely to take the job.
>
>				Bob P.
>
>-- 
>Bob Pendleton             | As an engineer I hate to hear:
>bobp@hal.com              |   1) You've earned an "I told you so."
>Speaking only for myself. |   2) Our customers don't do that.
>                   <<< Odin, after the well of Mimir. >>>
>

-- 
Ronda Hauben  Amateur Computerist Newsletter
P.O. Box 4344   other email addr:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu
Dearborn, MI 48126
Newsgroups: sci.econ