From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:53:40 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

My, Steve disproved my whole post. :-)

In article <1992Sep28.192927.23673@linus.mitre.org> zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell) writes:
|
|In article <69165@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>Summary of Dr. D. James Kennedy's book "Why I Believe"
|>
|>[1]Why I Believe the Bible:
|>The Bible gives many predictive prophecies.  It tells us of 
|>a coming Prophet into whom's mouth God will put his words.  
|>It tells not to fear anyone who gives a prophesy that is 
|>false.  The Bible even quotes God as saying that there is 
|>none like God, himself, declaring the end from the 
|>beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not 
|>yet done.
|>
|>Dr. Kennedy says that Budda, Confucius, and Lao-tse's 
|>writings DO NOT contain predictive prophesy.  The Koran has 
|>one prophesy by Muhammed that says he will return to Mecca.  
|
|I don't think they consider prophecy necessary for religion.
|Is it?

You missed the point - predictive prophecies are not easy 
and others hardly even touch it.  That is why the verse was
cited - that is the Lord knows the beginning from the end and
of things not yet done.

|>However, the Bible contains prophesies that are 
|>substantially in a league of there own - it predicts the 
|>death and return from that death for Jesus the Christ.
|
|Written after the fact probably by people who did not witness
|the event.

Oh.  How would you have done it?  The articles are written about
events that happened before, but being written afterwards is
customary.  You can't write about something happening until
afterwards, can you?  Oh, that is unless you are predicting it.

|>The Old Testament contains some 2,000 predictive prophecies 
|> ... [Richard discusses of the destruction of Tyre, 
|> Sidon, Samaria, and Jerusalem]
|
|As I understand it, most of the Old Testament was compiled during the
|Babylonian exile.  That is after all of these events happened.  We

It was assembled during that time - not written.

|suspect that these men were not against editing and adding to the
|scriptures.  It is easy to be a prophet after the fact.

The people, to my understanding, were meticulous in their handling of
the Word of God.

|Jesus later predicted the (re)destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew.  But
|Matthew is based on the earlier Mark which makes no mention of this
|prophecy.  Scholars place the writing of Matthew after 70AD.  Again,
|it's easy to be a prophet after the fact.

It is easy to be a critic anytime.

Again, being written after the fact does not disqualify the writing.
Whether the scholars can date the writing prior to AD 70 or not still
does not make the events that occurred 30 years prior any less true.

|>[2] The Stones Cry Out
|>And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if 
|>these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately 
|>cry out.  Luke 19:40.
|>
|>[Examples of Biblical critics proven wrong by Archaeology]
|
|Disproving a detractor does not mean you've provided any proof
|for your case.

Correct, but it adds weight to the arugment.  How would you propose
to prove it?  If one can show a steady string of independently
supported points, then you have a good case - you know you can
have a mathematically 'continuous' function that has a finite set
of discontinuities.

|>The Hittites were another favorite muse of the critics, for 
|>surely they did not exist, as they were mentioned only in 
|>the Bible and only in eight different chapters.  Dr. Hugo 
|>Winckler has now discovered forty Hittite cities.  The 
|>kingdom was so large that Egypt and Babylonia were like 
|>tribes to the Hittites. [R.A. Torrey]
|
|The Hittites existed, but the Bible places them in the wrong time (too
|early) and wrong place.  But it is unwise to point to a people

It used to be said that they didn't even exist and so the Bible surely
had to be wrong, but now we know they exist.  Why could it not be
that the Bible is correct and the other literature/findings be wrong -
it has been before?

|mentioned in the Bible who we have no current knowledge of and say that
|our lack of information is evidence that the Bible is wrong!  Any
|historian will admit that our knowledge of those periods of history
|will always be limited.

Understood, as it pertains to human ability, but what about divine revelation?

|I don't think any historian dismisses the value of the Bible as a
|historical document and many events in the Bible have been
|independently confirmed.  However, these confirmed events have shown
|no signs of anything supernatural.
|
|One may wonder why there is no confirmation from other civilizations of
|supernatural events such as the Sun stopping in Joshua.
|
|> [Discussion of Egyptian bricks]
|
|Some of the Bible is based on history.  I don't think anyone denies
|that.

Some, but only what we have proved with some other evidence, I guess. :-)
It seems the Bible is predisposed to be false, until something other
supports it and then it is still an up hill battle.

|>Dr. Kennedy continues on with examples about Moses 
|>authorship, 
|
|He wrote about his own death and burial!
|
|>the fall of the city of Jericho.  
|
|Yes, the city was conquered, several times in fact (parts of the older
|walls had even collapsed).  But nothing supernatural can be concluded.

It was once said that for a city seemingly as large as Jericho that no
group or person could walk around it seven times in one day, but the
archeaologist have found that Jericho was a much smaller city and so
could be circumferenced seven times in one day.

|There is evidence against a global flood since there are archeological
|sites from before the "time of the flood" that show no evidence of ever
|being submerged (eg. the pyramids).

Then it seems that the pyramids were build after the flood.  Weren't the
Hebrews working on building things way after the flood?  Flood was in
Genesis 9 and the Hebrews were building things for Pharoahs in Exodus.

|>Nelson Glueck, the renowned 
|>Jewish archaeologist, said, "It may be stated that no 
|>archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical 
|>reference."
|
|Archaeology has disagreed with the Bible in several places.  On the

Could you state some of the disagrement?  And point out to if it
is a matter of interpretation or lack of understanding/findings,
as many of the above items have been.

|other hand, how can Archaeology disprove a supernatural event to
|someone with faith?  Probably no amount of Archaeological evidence can
|do that!
|
|>[8] Why I believe in Christ
|>
|>Dr. Kennedy states that the evidence for Christ is 
|>overwhelming.  For those who honest seek the truth there is 
|>abundant evidence.
|>
|>Some say Jesus never really existed - he was a myth.  
|>Consider this - Historian J. Gilchrist Lawson says: "The 
|>legendary, or mythical, theory of Christ's existence is not 
|>held by any one worthy of the name scholar.  The evidences 
|>of Christ existence are more than for any other event in 
|>ancient history."  
|
|This is crap!  J. GilCHRIST Lawson has demonstrated clearly by his
|words that he has lost all objectivity and will say anything to support
|is foredrawn conclusions.  How can any historian say that there is more
|evidence for Christ than any other ancient event!  Is there more
|evidence for Christ than for the Caesars?  NO!  How about more evidence
|for Christ than the Pharaohs of Egypt?  NO, we even have some of their
|bodies!  J. GilCHRIST Lawson's words do not contain truth but do

Oh, you seemed to forget that Jesus rose from the dead in his immortal
body and then ascended into heaven.  We don't claim to have his body,
but you have the Pharoah's bodies - what can you do with them?

|illustrate an important truth.  There are "historians" like Lawson who
|are not above distorting history in order to prove their own beliefs.
|This is precisely where most of the "evidence" for the historical Jesus
|comes from.

Most?  What about the rest of it?

|>One reason we know this is that the Bible 
|>tells us, but more than that we have support from the 
|>following secular historians and writers of antiquity: 
|>Tacitus, the Roman historian; Suetonius; Pliny the younger; 
|>Epictetus; Lucian; Aristides; Galenus; Lampridius; 
|>DioCassius; Hinnerius; Libanius; Ammianus; Marcellinus; 
|>Eunapius; Zosimus.  
|
|I wouldn't accept any statement from J. GilCHRIST Lawson without
|checking first!  His claim of "support" for the Jesus story may only be
|confirmation of historical figures mentioned in the gospels (such as
|Herod or Augustus Caesar!).

Many of these are support for the historical figure and that is
a fair amount of the argument - agian with this historical proof,
what happened to Jesus' body?  It seems to have disappeared like
the Bible says.

|>Lucian,Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, and 
|>Julian the Apostate have written whole books against 
|>Christianity.  
|
|This you consider more proof?

Again, proof of the historical existence of Jesus, for many tried
to denounce the Way then, as they do now.

|>Pontius Pilate wrote of his activities with 
|>Jesus - "he described Christ's miracles - he tells of Herod 
|>delivering Jesus over to him and the crowd making a great 
|>uproar to have Christ tried and so he [Pilate] ordered him 
|>crucified, but first had him scourged, although he found 
|>nothing against him.  Much less he records that that day the 
|>sun went dark and the moon turned as if to blood." [The 
|>Ante-Nicene Fathers vol 8]  
|
|These letters of Pilate and Herod are traced back only to about the
|sixth or seventh century.  They are probably written by early
|Christians.  I don't think any real historians take them seriously and
|I don't think even the Catholic Church has ever considered them 
|genuine.

Could you cite some real historians?

|-- Steve

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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