From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: politics
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:26:13 PDT

In article 10830@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>I think we have (not just you and I, but most everyone in t.p.m.) a
>>basic difference-of-understanding with regard to the meaning of
>>"concession". In fact, it is more of a "double-standard". That is,
>>Israeli concessions are/must-be physical/tangible, while Arab
>>concessions are/must-be ideological/conceptual.
>
>>Israel *returns the Sinai Penninsula* (physical concession), while
>>Arabs  *recognize the existance of Israel* (conceptual)
>
>No the second line should be:
>Egypt   *signed a peace treaty and opened diplomatic relations with Israel.
>
>I did not benefit whatsoever from this concession.

Neither did Israel -- and that is why I called it a "conceptual" concession.

>>Israel *stops building new settlements* (physical concession), while
>>Arabs  *depart from the idea of liberating Palestine...* (`major'
>>        ideological concession)
> 
>Again the second line should be:
>
>Palestinians *depart from the idea of liberating Palestine. We don't
>have anything physical left to offer.

Well, if one side has nothing physical to offer, then doesn't it seem
like one helluva lot of audacity to always be demanding "concessions"
from the other side?

>>Exactly. When one country is attacked by its neighbor (who, 19 years earlier
>>earlier, stole some of that country's land), and defeats that neighbor and
>
>Who stole who? in 1948 we stole the land from you? come on!

But of course! Read your history of the area -- it's been our land for
thousands of years, and even the thieves British) gave it back to us.

>>When Jordan declared war on Israel in 1948, and took over the West Bank
>>area, it did none of these things. When Israel won it back in 1967, it
>>was as if nothing had changed (except for the Jewish cemetaries and places
>>of worship and places of historical value that Jordan destroyed).
>
>>So, "Yes", Israel gave up this right *not for the loan guarantees*, but
>>for peace.
>
>>And again I ask, "What are the Arabs giving up? Where are *their* 
>>concessions?"
> 
>What about the pr-1948 land? isn't that a physical concession?
>Do you want WB and Gazza too? what is left? Jordan ofcourse.

Do you mean the *rest* of Trans-Jordan? If you're saying that (a) the
Palestinians are Jordanians; and (b) that you're willing to give the
East Bank to Israel as a Palestinian concession; then that sounds like
it might not be a bad idea!
 
>>No. The "Hashemites" were just another semi-nomadic tribe, living in the
>>Stone Age, when the British (for whatever perverse reason) decided to go
>>the Turks one better in screwing the Jews, and took the land on *both* sides
>>of the Jordan River and called in Trans-Jordan, and then gave the eastern
>>portion to the "Hashemites" and the western portion to Israel, calling it
>>"Palestine".
>
>>Those "Palestinians" about whom we hear so much are "Jordanians" -- it's the
>>Israelis who are the *real* "Palestinians". 
>
>Well if you want to really go back in history, the British screwed up everything.
>I know that they created Syria and Jordan the same way they created Kuwait early 
>in the century. However, the Palestininas in Palestine that is Haifa, Java, and
>so on they were there 2000 years ago and they were not called Joranians, they were
>called Palestinians. The Jews were there 2000 years ago and before the Jews the 
>Philstines were there. I can go back in history as much as you want.

Uh-h-h, no. First of all, the "Arabs" that were in Israel 3000 years ago were not
Arabs -- they were members of peoples called Moabites, Jebbusites, Hittites, etc.
Secondly, there were not Muslims -- they were (pretty much) idol worshippers and
other brands of pagans.

Now, as for "Arabs" in the Israel of 2000 years ago, they were very few, and
they *still* were not Muslims, and most of them were nomadic tribes who criss-
crossed the entire Middle-East area (although there were some who sold themselves
as `indentured servants' in Israel, as well as in other countries).

The Philistines were *never* in Israel -- and their name *never* evolved into
"Palestinians". That's a shameful lie which is bandied about all too often.

The point is, that no matter *how* far back in history we go, the "Arabs" of
today were never in Israel as residents/owners of land, and they were not
Muslims, and they pretty-much lived peacefully with the Israelites.

Let's take the "fiction" out of Middle-East history, OK?

>>As for "refugee passports", well, it's a lot of hooey -- they are Jordanian
>>citizens, but that old "Hashemite" won't give them either passports or
>>recognize their citizenship, but he'll sure send them dinars... And as for
>>spitting in your face, the "Hashemites" are scared silly that if they let
>>those "Jordanians" living in Israel back into Jordan, that they would all
>>become fundamentalist Moslems and would overthrow their precious "Hashemite"
>>kingdom.
>
>If you want to consider Haifa and Java and Tel-Aviv as part of Jordan, then that
>is fine we are Jordanians. I know where my granfathers lived for the past 2000 years. 
>We did not have mobile homes then. Do you think that I will buy this stuff?

Fine; they didn't have mobile homes. OK. They lived in tents and/or caves. But
it's fiction to think that they lived in Haifa and Yafo 2000 years ago. And
Tel-Aviv?? Hell, Tel-Aviv was only built 75 years ago!