From: mahmud-mehdi@CS.YALE.EDU (Mehdi Mahmud)
Subject: Prejudiced eyes (was: london and the mai'm)
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 09:06:51 GMT


In article <1992Apr16.203122.873@cs.yale.edu>, ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:

>In article <1992Apr16.071918.23358@cs.yale.edu>, mahmud-mehdi@CS.YALE.EDU (Mehdi Mahmud) writes:
>> In article <ZEESHAN.92Apr15143303@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) writes:
>> >
>> >	Regarding London, the things that stick in my mind most are
>> >the filthy black buildings and the homeless.
>> 
>> 	Ahhh...but then you must have been looking at London with 
>> prejudiced eyes! London, I regret to admit, is a truly wonderful city!
>> Now, if only it were possible to move American people to Britain and
>> British people to America... 
>
>I don't think you're being fair on Zeeshan by accusing him of looking
>at London through "prejudiced eyes."  To begin with, his comments were
>directed at someone who was relating his superlative expectations of
>London, the capital of the "glorious" British empire.  

	That would be the article by Mr. Abdur Khan. I have reproduced
it below, and I would be enlightened if you would point out the references
to the ** glorious ** British empire. Personally, I could find none!

	For someone who is vehemently opposed to misquoting (re: Debates
on Islam), selective quoting, and misrepresentation (intentional or not),
you seem to be blissfully unaware of your own peccadillos regarding
unethical methods of debate.

   In article <1992Apr15.165256.6431@leland.Stanford.EDU>, arkay@leland.Stanfor   d.EDU (Abdur Khan) wrote:
Khan> 
Khan>I just got back from pakistan via london.
Khan>
Khan>Landing in london was like a dream come true, i have finally landed in 
Khan>the capiol of the british empire it is like going to pilgrimage. An 
Khan>awesome expierence !!!!!!!!
Khan>
Khan>So there i was roaming the streets of london, fully aware...
       <paki-indian rivalry stuff deleted>

>Like Zeeshan, I
>do not understand the continuous insistence of South Asians to look
>upon the British as something more than human, and to expect the
>onetime seat of the British empire to be the Utopian capital that the
>Brits liked to portray as they toured the world during their
>systematic economical rape of various colonies.  At times it does seem
>like the attempts of the British to teach all their "subjects" that
>they were inferior to the colonizers left permanent damage in South
>Asia.

	Where is all this psychological evaluation, reminiscent of 
Mr. Anil Trivedi's notions of "mental slavery", coming from? 
If you begin with the premise that Mr. Khan was "relating his 
superlative expectations of London, the capital of the "glorious" 
British empire" (as you put it), then perhaps your thoughts, inferences, 
and conclusions might lead somewhere. However, since your premise 
is incorrect... 

>As for the comment on "filthy black buildings and the homeless," it is
>appropriate.  

	I'm glad to learn that we agree on some points! :)

>London is indeed a wonderful city in many ways, but that
>does not change the fact that the initial impression is one of
>decaying, dark structures that had seen better days, and homeless
>people roaming the streets in numbers that are unparalleled anywhere
>else in Europe.  

	Hmmm...I wonder where you got that one from! I'll quote it again:

     "...homeless people roaming the streets in numbers that are 
      unparalleled anywhere else in Europe."
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Would you be able to provide some figures? I think perhaps Spain,
Poland, or Ireland would be heading that list.

>One really has to get to know London well before one
>begins appreciating what "wonderfulness" it may have to offer.  To a
>visitor, the impression Zeeshan relates above is inevitable and is not
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>indicative of "prejudiced eyes."

	Well, since Mr. Abdur Khan (from arkay@leland.stanford.edu), 
Mr. Swaminathan Sureshchandran (from suresh@fred.cis.udel.edu), 
Mr. Shahriar Khan (from s0k5099@zeus.tamu.edu), and myself (forgive me 
if I missed anyone else who contributed to this topic) were obviously 
*visitors* in London, surely the impressions of Zeeshan are not 
*inevitable*?

	Regarding my comment about "prejudiced eyes" which seems to have
caused so much heart-wrenching agony, this is what Mr. Zeeshan Hasan 
had to say in article <ZEESHAN.92Apr15143303@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>: 

>        Really?  Personally, I have never understood the awe with
>which many people still regard the former colonial institutions of the
>West, particularly those of the English.  It seems very misplaced,
>when one considers the immeasurable harm that the imperialist policies
>of the last few centuries did to our part of the world.
>        Regarding London, the things that stick in my mind most are
>the filthy black buildings and the homeless.

	As you put it, "London is a beautiful city in many ways," and I think 
it is unfortunate that Mr. Zeeshan should choose to remember the squalor
of the place rather than its beauty. Whatever the case, it is my opinion that
he has not retained a fair or accurate idea of London, and I stand by my 
statement that his is a "prejudiced" point of view.

	Indeed, Mr Swaminathan Sureshchandran said it best:

>You [Z] seem to imply that we should not admire London because the British
>were colonialists. This is a very narrow minded approach. There are
>people who subscribe to this, and it is logical in its own way, but then
>what is past is past. People still visit the old monuments in Rome, even
>though the slave labour on which they were built is illegal now. People
>still admire the Taj Mahal, even though it may have been the product of
>a Muslim rule which imposed taxes on Hindus for the sin of being non-
>Muslim. Great achievements of the past must be judged by themselves, not
>ridiculed because our views have evolved with time.


  
	" Two prisoners stared out of their cells. One looked
	  at the stars in the heavens, the other looked at the 
	  mud on the ground. "
				- Anonymous
				from a father to his daughter


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