From: mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) (OS/2)
Subject: Re: Rude behavior on this group.
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Distribution: world,local
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:28:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.175916.18702@microsoft.com> richs@microsoft.com (Rick Schaut) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.074830.3234@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) (OS/2) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.234708.18159@microsoft.com> richs@microsoft.com (Rick Schaut) writes:
>>>It is my position that demand must be such
>>>that vendors will be able to sell at a price which exceeds the additional
>>>costs.  It is demand which makes the whole thing possible in the first
>>>place.
>
>>I demand to buy a computer without DOS or Windows pre-installed.
>
>And if there aren't enough people who make the same "demand", then vendors
>can't charge enough to cover the costs of producing a machine even without
>Windows.

The computer I bought was "customized" (except for DOS+Win).  More on
this later.

>>>Presumably people who don't want a machine bundled with Windows can ask for
>>>a machine without Windows and get a machine without Windows.  So what's the
>>>problem?
>
>>I called different computer sellers to get a machine and they would not sell
>>me a computer without Windows 3.1 and DOS 5.0.
>
>And I called a local computer store which is willing to sell a DOS only box
>without Windows.  (I didn't ask about an OS/2 only box.)

This does not disprove that other dealers won't sell computers without
DOS and Windows.

>>Give me a good reason why
>>computer sellers will not sell computers without Win and DOS.
>
>It's possible that there's a very good reason: it costs too much.  There
>can be two basic reasons for this.  The first is that their productive
>capacity may be such that selling any DOS only box is a box that isn't
>sold with Windows.  Why should a seller sell a DOS only box to you at the
>discount you expect when that same box, with the addition of Windows, can
>be sold to someone else at a higher price?
>
>Secondly, it's possible that firms enjoy a sufficient cost savings from
>having a singular line of production to preclude breaking out a second
>completion phase.  Economies of scale can actually be such that the per-box
>costs of production are less under a single line than if the producer made
>two different software configurations.  If this is the case, then you would
>actually pay more for DOS only boxes than you pay if the manufacturer makes
>only DOS+Windows boxes.  Do you have a better definition of "freebie" than
>that the price is lower?

As I have already stated, not only do I not oppose ready-to-run systems,
I support it (you deleted that text from your follow-up).

The issue here is why people should pay for something they don't want.
For instance, the place where I eventually bought my PC was offering a
PC with 4 megs and a 80 meg hard drive.  I asked that they delete the
80 meg and replace it with a 170 meg drive.  They said fine.  I asked
that they change the 4 x 1 meg RAM to 8 x 1 meg RAM.  They said fine.  I
asked that they not include DOS and Windows.  They could not!  They can
install the RAM, the hard drive, the floppies, and extras like a modem
but they are forced to include DOS and Windows.  I could have used that
credit to buy, say, a bigger hard drive from them, or some other product.
And they could have sold that copy of DOS and Windows to someone else as
and extra profit.  They had some guy customize my entire system (which
makes it easier for me), but they still had to customize DOS and Windows
that I eventually deleted.

>>P.S.  Did you ever buy a PC?
>
>Yes.
>
>Did you ever take an Economics course?

Yes.  But taking an Economics course has nothing to do with a buying
a computer without DOS and Windows.

[The question ``did you take an Economics course?'' seems to have occured
frequently lately.  Someone should put this in a FAQ List.]

>Rick Schaut

-- 
==== Mike Levis   mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu ====
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