HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:49:29 -0500 
From: Carl B Jabido <cj00+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolutionary VS. Revolutionary approach

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 3-Dec-92 Re: Evolutionary
VS. Revolu.. by Izumi Ohzawa@pinoko.berk 
> I am just curious.  What IMAGING MODEL does WindowsNT offer?
> Is it a unified model that can handle display/printer/fax/file like
> NeXT's DPS?
>  
> I haven't heard anything said about this, and am curious.

Instead of using Postscript, Micro$loth is trying to expand its monopoly
(kinda makes me sick!).  They're gonna produce cartridges for HP laser
printers which have the Windows GDI (or whatever Graphics engine they
have) on it, so the printer doesn't use Postscript, or even PCL, it uses
Windows GDI.  UGH!  Microsoft really makes me sick, and I wish NeXT
would drop NS486 prices by about 1/2 so it'll be at least only $100 more
than NT.  Then I'll get it.  As for now, I'm sticking with OS/2 2.0
because I've seen NT and I _*HATE*_ it.  It's slow, and not much more
stable than OS/2, it's got the same old ugly Windows interface.  It's
hard to install, the list goes on and on!  NS486 is WAAAAYYYYY toooooo
much for me, only a little student.  So, I'm sticking with Big Blue for
now, which gave me a pretty damn decent OS for only $49.  If I could get
NS496 for 10 times that, I'd do it, but as unfortunately, it's still
gonna be 20 times that :-(.

Carl

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS)
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Reply-To: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:30:55 GMT

> I would not mind an HP port but my wish would be a port to DEC Alpha.  The  
low  
> end at about $15k for a workstation or $25k for a server is about twice as  
fast  
> as a 745 which uses the PA-RISC 7100.  The alpha line goes much higher than  
> that both in single processors and multiprocessors.  If we are talking high  
end  
> performance this looks good to me.

The Alpha's and the new HP's are pretty close with the HP's coming out ahead.  
I've got an Alpha - fast box, nice hardware, but the OS is very rough around  
the edges.  Massive binaries, 8 meg for the X server - that's absurd.  HP's  
disk subsystem screams - hate their OS, but it least its fairly mature -  
NeXTSTEP on an HP 7X5 would be the best available software running on the best  
available hardware (Provided HP writes the device drivers and not NeXT).


> The best of all worlds would be to port to  
> EACH of the leading workstations and let us choose the hardware we want (and  
> can get serviced locally).
> 

Agreed.

> -- 
> Michael Allen Latta
> Kripalu Center
> harit@kripalu.com
> (413)448-3288

--
Gregory W. Vesper, SEWP BOWL, Goddard Space Flight Center
      __|__        email: vesper@sewp.nasa.gov
        |          Phone: 301-286-1478
        |          FAX:   301-286-4627
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: 20 Dec 92 07:54:57 GMT
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.

In article <1992Dec17.183055.23370@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov> vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
>The Alpha's and the new HP's are pretty close with the HP's coming out ahead. 

From what I understand, the new PA processors come out slightly ahead
of the Alpha at *two thirds* the clock rate...   i.e. a 99mhz PA is
just a wee bit (not enough to really matter) faster than a 150mhz
Alpha.  Pretty killer.  I wonder if HP will be able to crank the clock
rates up without the suckers melting...

A friend of mine at MW-Kellog has an Alpha...  he says it's really
fast, but it heats up his whole office.  :-)


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com      | "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke, but THIS
Andrew Loewenstern       |  kind of smoke I can handle!"
Cube Technologies, Inc.  |  John Draper, aka Captain Crunch Dec 18, 1992
0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: Infoworld Review:  "NextStep [sic] 3.0 crosses multiple platforms"
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:35:22 GMT

In article <FISCHER.92Dec17034138@vagtel.iesd.auc.dk> fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer) writes:
>
>>>>>> "andrew" == andrew  (andrew@cubetech.com)
>
>andrew>  It said something like "Our configuration was an NeXTstation
>andrew> monochrome with 8 megs of RAM" <I started to feel really sick
>andrew> at this point>
>
>I hate it. Why is it that Computer rags *must* test configurations
>that no sane person would ever use? Especially with RAM, where you
>time and time again see long talk about this and that hardware or
>softawre and all their problems with memory, in a world where 16M
>costs practically nothing.
>
>andrew> "Even after running 10 applications simultaneously, there was
>andrew> little or no perceptible slowdown" <he's lying, but it's OK I
>andrew> thought...>
>
>No, it's not OK, 'cause it's obvious to everyone that he's out of his
>mind. You don't have to have tried to know that you will not get
>*anywhere* with 8M.

I spoke with Lee over e-mail, and he told me that a NSTC 32 was used
as well as the NS 8.  Furthermore, he did not write the sentence
"Even after running 10 applications simultaneously, there was little
or no perceptible slowdown."  The basis of that sentence was from a
phone conversation that was apparently mis-interpreted.  To make
things a bit worse, Lee did not see the final edit before it was
published.

I just wanted to clear the record about what really happend.  I also
want to say that it was a good review despite the above inaccuracy and
provided excellent and much-needed exposure for NeXT.  Kudos to
InfoWorld for recognizing NeXT and kudos to Lee for writing a good
review!


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com      |  "C++'s runtime sucks shit!  Virtual functions
Andrew Loewenstern       |   can go straight to hell!"  - Ron Pomeroy
Cube Technologies, Inc.  |                   ForYourEyesOnly public key:
0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS)
Subject: Re:   100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Reply-To: vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 17:38:24 GMT

In article <dillon.0sv3@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US  
(Matthew Dillon) writes:
> 
>     I think they ARE that far behind.  The machines are reasonable, but the
>     prices are not.  I don't think they will ever sell enough hardware to
>     be able to absorb the R&D costs and lower the price nor are they in the
>     type of market that promotes competition.

This point has been made before but NeXT doesn't seem to get it.  The overhead  
for their hardware efforts is putting their software advantage at risk.
 
>     THEN I want to see it run on lightning OEM'd workstations.  They have
>     to get out of the hardware business and into the software business...
>     look at NeXTStep... look at the complaints, this is NeXT's centerpiece
>     and they do not even have enough time to work on it. 

I couldn't agree more strongly.  NeXT should sink all their development  
resources into correcting, improving and extending NeXTSTEP.  They're doing  
enough work on NeXTSTEP to stay in business, but not enough for it to be the  
best run time and development environment on the planet.  Other companies are  
catching on and purusing full featured object oriented develpment environments  
for other platforms.  Anyone seen GAIN Momentum?  Its been referred to as  
NeXTSTEP for X windows.  Its a very impressive product and I can get it on  
multiple architectures today.  NeXTSTEP is still better, but not by as much.   
NeXT has got to make a wholesale commitment to software development to stay  
ahead of the pack.  Anything that might compromise NeXTSTEP, including  
NeXTstations, should be phased out.

-Greg.

--
Gregory W. Vesper, SEWP BOWL, Goddard Space Flight Center
                   email: vesper@sewp.nasa.gov
                   Phone: 301-286-1478
                   FAX:   301-286-4627
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: abell@netcom.com (Steven T. Abell)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:34:47 GMT

rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop)) writes:
>thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen) writes:
>>John Kheit writes
>>> At any rate Marketing HAS NOTHING AND SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH
>>> R&D AND/OR NEW PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT!  Marketing and R&D are both
>>> neccessary and different entities like creation and maintenence in
>>> Darwinian theory.

>If AMD thought like this we wouldn't have sold $1.5B this year.  It was our
>customers that drove our product decisions - through out marketing folks! 

>Thats spelled "M-a-r-k-e-t D-r-i-v-e-n" thank you....

Well, how long has it been since AMD came out with a product that's
revolutionary? Sorry, but cheap Intel clones don't qualify. You guys are
in the evolution business, so it's appropriate that you spend a lot of
time listening to the marketeers.

I don't agree with John Kheit that marketing should have *nothing* to do
with R&D, but a market-*driven* R&D department is a sure sign of an also-ran.

Steve abell@netcom.com
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Date: 20 Dec 92 05:12:09 GMT
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.

In article <dillon.0t0a@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:
>    If NeXT can get a handle on its misuse of memory, that is.. they do not
>    seem to realize the huge amount of bad press they are going to get if
>    NS486 turns out to be slower then Windows in effective response, and
>    Windows runs quite well with 8MB of ram.

Windoze doesn't use windows with backingstore
Windoze doesn't run DPS
Windoze doesn't do a lot of things NeXTSTEP does behind the scenes,
that's why it uses less memory.  NeXT won't get a huge amount of bad
press.  It's not likely that they will get a huge amount of _any_
press.

NeXTSTEP needs about 24 megs of RAM to run really well.  Would you say
that NeXTSTEP does three times the stuff in the background?  Is it 3
times better?  Is RAM cheap?   yes, yes, yes.


andrew
(back from HoHoCon!)
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com      |  "C++'s runtime sucks shit!  Virtual functions
Andrew Loewenstern       |   can go straight to hell!"  - Ron Pomeroy
Cube Technologies, Inc.  |                   ForYourEyesOnly public key:
0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5
From: marcos@kaleida.com (Paul Marcos)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Standardize NeXT
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:38:43 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Organization: Kaleida Labs, Inc.


> 9) STANDARD WORD-PROCESSING FILE
> 
>    Some type of standard word-processing file needs to be
>    created.  It should be expandable like the PICT-II 
>    format is for graphics, but be readable by any word-
>    processing package.  Right now files tend to be in
>    MS-WORD format or MacWrite format.  A standard would
>    be very nice.  Standards for graphics spreadsheets and
>    other such applications would also be nice.
Isn't this the idea behind filters?  If I want to open a file 
that is in a format that I don't understand, but there is a filter
that can do the conversion for me then it will put it into a format
I can work with.  

>    
> 10) DOCUMENT BASED COMPUTING
> 
>    This final item really couldn't be done under the MacOS.
>    It may be done under some other OS.  Here the basic
>    element of work is not the application, but rather the
>    document.  You could have paper documents ala page-
>    layout and word processing.  You could have cards,
>    spreadsheets and lists.  There would be different
>    tools to apply to the document.  A text tool would 
>    have many word-processing functions.  A graph tool
>    would do graphs.  A math tool could do equations,
>    spreadsheet function and other such functions.  A paint
>    tool would draw pictures.
>    
>    A movement towards this was brought by MS-Word (very
>    poorly though)  Here you have one main application
>    dealing with the basic structure and external tools
>    controled via OLE to do graphing, painting, and equations.
>    Having this expanded and put down on the OS layer or
>    Finder layer would be a fantastic improvement in
>    computing.
> 

From what I understand, we should be expecting this sometime post-4.0.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Marcos -- Kaleida Labs, Inc. -- (415) 966-0873 -- marcos@kaleida.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| /       |      .   |       |         |           |
|/    _   |  _      _|  _    |      _  |_    _     | ___  _
|\   / |  | /_\  | / | / |   |     / | | \  /_     | | | / 
| \  \_|  | \__  | \_| \_|   |____ \_| |_/  _/ /   | | | \_ O
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:51:36 GMT

In article <dillon.0spj@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:
>    Intel's pentium is a joke.  Since NeXT cannot possibly compete with PC
>    maker's 486 boxes (they've dropped below a $1000, see latest issue of
>    computer shopper), and since NeXT would be wasting it's development
>    money working on new hardware of its own (why bother when you can OEM
>    faster hardware from others for less money?), NeXT should get out of
>    the hardware business and start concentrating on its NeXTStep software.

80x86 != PC

>    As it stands, NeXT is trying to have its cake and eat it to, trying to
>    do everything from the hardware to the software to the peripherals and
>    getting badly beat on everything except the software.  Why should I
>    bother buying a high end configuration from NeXT when I can buy a low
>    end configuration and purchase the extra disk and memory myself for
>    half the cost?  Why should I bother purchasing a CD drive from NeXT
>    when their 'special' deal is barely competitive with any reasonable
>    third party CD drive?  Why spend major kilobucks on color NeXTStation
>    hardware when I can spend a quarter of the money on a 486 box with
>    equivalent capabilities?  All *I'm* waiting for is NeXTStep to come out
>    for the 486 and you can kiss the NeXT hardware goodbye.

*all* computer manufacuters are like this, and NeXT is no different.
If you want to talk about comp. manufacturers totally screwing their
customers, talk about SGi RAM.  It makes NeXT's RAM look free, and
it's cleverly designed with custom-ASIC's on the board so you _have_
to buy it from SGi.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com      |  "C++'s runtime sucks shit!  Virtual functions
Andrew Loewenstern       |   can go straight to hell!"  - Ron Pomeroy
Cube Technologies, Inc.  |                   ForYourEyesOnly public key:
0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5
From: alex@fiskville.mc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Standardize NeXT
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:51:45 GMT

Eric M Hermanson writes

>   
> 9) STANDARD WORD-PROCESSING FILE
> 
>    
> 10) DOCUMENT BASED COMPUTING
> 
> I think these are excellent ideas.  Any comments?
> 
> Eric


Sounds rather familiar, don't you think?

What were the other 8 ideas?


--
***************************************
Alex Currier
Texas Union MicroCenter
University of Texas at Austin

NeXTmail Preferred
From: wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP 486 delayed to Q3 - are you serious ?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 07:40:20 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In article <1992Dec14.032004.21028@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> helz@ecn.purdue.edu (Randall A Helzerman) writes:
>How's this for a theory?  
>NS 486 is already completely debugged and ready to go.  Its the ultimate OS
>which delivers even more than it promises.  Little shrink-wrapped boxes
>are sitting RIGHT NOW in NeXT warehouses.
>
>However, the hardware guys think that NS 486 is _too_ good.  You could just buy
>NS 486 today and have a way faster system than anything NeXT is going to 
>manufacture until...... Q3 1993????
>
>I think NeXT is just scared that their $10 million factory will be idled
>forever once NS 486 is released.

Interesting speculation.  I would give it more credulity by modifying it 
slightly.  My scenario is basically similar to yours.  Except that the 
software is basically ready to ship.  There are no shrink-wrapped boxes though.

The factory concern is conceivable.  NeXT can't afford to have SW boxes sitting
in a warehouse.  What may be more likely is that they are readying more
black HW to justify their factory's existence.  In the meantime, they are
improving NS486, squashing bugs, and working on NS 3.1.

Disclaimer:  I don't really know what is happening.  I just thought that
Randall's posting/concept would be more credulous with my modifications.
 RWW.
-- 
Robert W. Wong Jr.
wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (ASCII only)
"I can't even remember all the things I've forgotten." - RWW.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: tjhendry@queen.mcs.drexel.edu
Subject: Re: 88k Dead ?
Reply-To: tjhendry@queen.mcs.drexel.edu
Distribution: USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:26:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.174242.9300@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)  
writes:

> 	Funny the way these two sit in the same sentence like that.
> 
> 	88k--first generation, bugs.
> 	88k--second generation, almost two years late.
>  


In the December 1992 issue of Computer Design, there is an advertisement for a dual 50MHz 88110 VMEbus board by a company called Tadpole. It claims to produce 200 MIPS/200 MFLOPS at less than $50/Mip. (No price is quoted, just the $/Mip figure). It doesn't say if it's shipping.
--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!) or hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
gs.
> 	88k--second generation, almost two years late.
>  


In the December 1992 issue of Computer Design, there is an advertisement for a dual 50MHz 88110 VMEbus board by a company called Tadpole. It claims to produce 200 MIPS/200 MFLOPS at less than $50/Mip. (No price is quoted, just the $/Mip figure). It doesn't say if it's shipping.
--
Jonath
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(LONG) (Was: Mike Slade)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: nasa-jsc
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:36:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.003409.366@Radical.Com>, Jim_Brownfield@radical.com
(Jim Brownfield) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Dec15.153724.18793@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov  
> (Michael C. Matthews) writes:
> > In article <Dec.14.12.32.44.1992.23089@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
> szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
> > >>Steve Jobs is a marketer.
> > >>Bill Gates is an engineer.
> > >
> > >IMHO
> > >
> > >Steve Jobs is cool.
> > >Bill Gates is a jerk.  I dont care if he's into trains.
> > 
> > Agreed.  That's my point.
> > 
> > Disclaimer:  I'm an engineer.
> > --
> > Mike Matthews, ex-Tether Dude +------------->   matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
> 
> Steve Jobs has a life.
> Bill Gates has a life.
> Recent posters to this thread have...?  ;-)

No life!  I did say I was an engineer, didn't I?  :-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey (Was: Mike Slade)
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 22:56:44 GMT

In article <Dec.10.16.59.39.1992.17176@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
> Not to mention Xerox passed all of its GUI technologies because the
> boys in marketing thought that no one would want it.

Actually, it failed because a workstation built on 70s tech was 
tens of thousands of dollars, because nobody realized how to
crank  out dirt cheap IC chips then.  (My info comes from a PBS
documentary, filtered through an imperfect memory; this was
how I remembered it.)

Not that I disagree with the main point -- that real marketing
only  comes in _after_ the product is built.

"Human factors", which somebody several posts back was
lumping into "marketing", is an entirely different process
from marketing.  Marketing is the art of persuading people to
buy a product; Human Factors is designing a product that people
can use easily (and as a byproduct making it more attractive to
potential users).  Marketing tests products against others in
the market, using a criterion of sales; Human Factors tests a
product against subjective criteria such as ease of use,
extendability, adaptability, etc.  THey are both "psychological"
in nature, but there the similarity ends.


--
Frank Mitchell,	Business Systems Analyst, First National Bank of Chicago
email:frank@fnbc.com (NeXTmail)

"A sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-- me, I think.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
	<168BBEB7F.UC512052@mizzou1.missouri.edu>
	<dillon.0spj@overload.Berkeley.CA.US>
	<1992Dec15.055136.8534@cubetech.com>
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:31:25


>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Loewenstern (andrew@cubetech.com)

Andrew> 80x86 != PC

Exactly. Some of us remember the roadrunner, aka Sun 386i. Really nice
box, and fast (for it's day). Solid UNIX, too.

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy