From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: the end of civilization (a bit long) was Re: proposed increase in inher
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:45:26 GMT
Distribution: na, usa
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


First, a preamble - endless flame wars are annoying to all except the people
who seem to revel in them.  Although I do enjoy making my point, I seldom
enjoy endless examples of "You said", "No You said"...   So, I am going to
try to make a few points, and then I am dropping this as a courtesy to
the rest of the misc.ruralites.   If Bill insists on continuing this thread,
then I would suggest that he either take it to private email, or have the
last word and then drop it.

In article <bill.719195182@chaos.cs.umn.edu> bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu (Hari Seldon...psychohistorian) writes:

[the beginning of the dispute deleted as a half hearted attempt at brevity]

>grub out a living? i raise over half of my own food, i kill my own meat
>(usually), i live in a log house (r40 walls, r50 ceiling), i have radio
>communications, i'm putting twisted pair ethernet in. on consulting 
>work i do quite well thank you. grubbing out a living, excuse me. 

[from this point Bill goes on to claim that I don't know him, and that
I shouldn't tell him what he is capable or not capable of doing.  He
claims that he could be self sufficient]

Bill, my point is not your degree of dependancy on society, but
that almost no-one can claim to be self sufficient.  I agree
that some people can be less dependant than othrs,  but I am willing
to wager that no-one posting here is self sufficient in the strict sense.

Bill, it is true I don't know you,  but I am willing to bet $1,000, registered
cashiers check, that you cannot make your own IC's, blow the glass envelope
for the CRT, make the phosphors, etc... to make your own terminal,
ethernet, and radio from the materials you can find,  grow and mine.
The infrastructure to do that is enormous.   Just making the IC's would take 
hundreds of person years worth of tooling.   Do you seriosuly mean to 
tell me that you can practicably do his from earth, air, fire and water?   

Consulting is a function of a society.  You are not selling your consulting 
to people living on your land.  

You might have an illusion of being self sufficient, but until you 
completely cut the cord and maintain a completely self contained economy
you are just fooling yourself.  Spare parts, etc... are all produced by the
society your are immersed in and surrounded by.   You are still dependant
upon your society.

Without the influx of cable for the ethernet you are so proud of, without 
chips to create the ethernet taps, without the parts to build the radio, you
would be reduced to a late 1700's pre-industrial mode of living.   I know a
few people who are living in that way.  But even they benefit from the
existence of a society around them - for the most part there are no roving 
bands of bandits, no hoards of mongols or huns...  These things  were not
at all uncommon in mediaeval times.   Our modern police forces are pretty 
good at keeping gangs confined to the inner cities.

I grant you that most "ruralites" are better at being less dependant
on society than most urbanites,  but I doubt that many people ever make
the transition to being completely self sufficient.  And those who do are not
people who post.  While many of us have the general knowledge of how to
make chips, etc...   no-one here has ever made a complete terminal and
ethernet from sand, bauxite, charcoal, salt peter and other resources
avaiable on a self sufficient farm.

>                 so once again whats your point. and what does any
>of this have to do with misc.rural and the tax thread?? 

A large part of the fellow's rationalization for declaring that he
shouldn't have to pay increased taxes was that he was self sufficient.
Thus, it is fair game to question if he is indeed self sufficient, or merely
somewhat less dependant than other people.  I would agree with the latter,
but I reject anyones claim that they are totally self sufficient unless 
they are living in a completely sealed system.

From this, I would posit that since he benefits from the existance of
society, then he owes something back.  Now we can argue about how much
he owes.  But the validity of the debt has been established.


>have a pleasent day, and do try and get out of the city more often.

Bill, you were so concerned that I was making assumptions about you, and
now you go off and do it to me.   Yes, I do plan to leave the city
soon.  In about 15 minutes I'm driving about 20 miles, to my
place in semi-rural conditions.  I have a dozen beehives, ducks, geese,
and assorted other birds.   We have a small vegetable plot and fruit
trees.   My mead is doing well, as is my apple cider and peary.   The pig
is nicely frozen (in a freezer I didn't make), as are the two lambs.
We have enough meat that I'm not raising any animals this year.  The
cost of water in Arizona is too high to make any idea of growing wheat or
other grain acceptable,  but my wife actually gets cotton from the local
growers and hand spins cotton and wool.  No, we don't make a lot of
our clothes, but we do have some that are completely hand spun
and hand woven.   She did most of the spinning on a wheel I made for her,
but I don't claim it is a mark of self sufficiency.  Although I have
made spoon bits, carving chisles, planes and other woodworking tools
from wood and by blacksmithing,  I realize that the forge, coal, and iron
didn't come from my own land.  I couldn't obtain enough from my own
land to do better than live as a preindustrial peasant.  There are just
not enough raw materials in any 40 acre plot to do so.   Even medieval
peasants depended on some commerce, and were never completely self sufficient.

I do it for fun, pride, and self fulfillment.  I don't pretend that I
am anywhere near self sufficient.  I don't use it as an excuse to try to
duck my debt to society.

>llbi locgeenpi " i'm a little confused right now"

I've noticed.