From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Subject: Re: Transport subsidies - Was: Car Parking
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 18:11:11 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

snail@lsl.co.uk writes:
> In article <NaRXVB30w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> > Yes, by paying per-use tolls, walking, or using my bike.  Maybe I just
> > don't need to go places as much as some people... although I seem to
> > remember not too many years ago it was odd for people to travel
> > outside of their local village.
> 
> And I suppose the office you work at just happens to be in the same village
> as where you live, assuming you still recognise that cambridge is constructed
> of many villages. And you never travel to any other villages? Be real.

I'm pointing out that it is possible to live a full and reasonably happy life
without ever owning, driving or travelling in a privately-owned motor
vehicle.  Millions of people have done so, and millions continue to do so,
in spite of the best efforts of the car industry to convince you otherwise. 
If you don't travel much or have a good public transport system, it is
actually cheaper than owning a car as well.

> > Suppose you have an NHS.  Anyone can "join" by paying the equivalent
> > of National Insurance.  Members are entitled to free medical
> > treatment.  Non-members who cannot afford National Insurance payments
> > are also entitled to free medical treatment, paid for by members.
> > 
> > Do you think that would work?  If not, why not?  (I think I'd choose
> > to get my healthcare that way.  Would you?)
> 
> You've just described the NHS.

No, I haven't.  This New NHS is optional.  You don't have to join.

>                     It'll be nothing like that (looking at current
> free market private health care)

There is no free market for health care at the moment, because subsidies
exist.  As do cartels and restrictive trade practices.

>                                     when you have no NHS and private blood 
> suckers like Bupa in full flow (rather than the little operations they run
> now).

See, you're actually looking at a non-free-market setup.  And you're right,
such a setup does suck.

> >> > Why is it you assume you need to have a built road (and therefore pay a 
> >> > in order to cycle or walk?
> >> 
> >> Ever tried walking across the penines, or across a fen? Or even across a f
> >> in winter?
> > 
> > When have you ever *NEEDED* to travel across (rather than around) the
> > Penines?  Or the fens?
> 
> I haven't. But I was refused access to a road near my house, then to get
> anywhere outside my village would entail crossing streams, fens, and in two
> extreme cases, rivers. There are one or two footbridges, I am lead to
> believe, but not many.

Well, what do you expect?  If I choose to live on the moon, am I entitled to
demand subsidised free rocket flights to work and back?

> >> >> I regard toll roads are more selfish, since it removes peoples individu
> >> >> freedom (that word again) of movement - unless of course they have that
> >> >> ingredient MONEY.
[...]
> > In the 'real world', very few people have *no* money.  Even homeless
> > people have *some* money, just not 'enough'.  Are you really talking
> > about people with *no* money?
> 
> Oh sorry, he's got 5 pounds sterling. That'll buy him a hospital bed for, um,
> lets think.. 1000 pounds a week, oh I dunno, we'll give him an hour. Be real.

We're talking about transport here.  5 pounds sterling will get him quite a
long bus or train journey, even assuming that (a) the transport doesn't get
cheaper and (b) money doesn't get more plentiful, both of which have been
argued against.

If you want to talk healthcare, go back to the New NHS suggestion.

> >>                           Money is power, and they'll have more power unde
> >> the schemes fofp (and now you) advocate.
> > 
> > Again, I say: only if people give them that power.
> 
> If you have enough money, you can buy people.

To do what?  What sorts of people?

>                                                 Simple. You can also pay for
> people to be bullied, threatened, beaten up, all done by someone not connecte
> with you.

You can arrange for people to bully, threaten and beat up others without
having to pay money.

> Ever had your car filled with concrete by someone unknown to you?

I don't have a car.  I've had my bike vandalised, but it's cheaper to buy a
complete new bike every year than own a car, let alone buy a new one.  Poor
people do not own cars, so they do not benefit from your subsidised roads you
are trying to argue for.


mathew