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Posted-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 09:30:06 PST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:30:06 PST
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      Misc replies

[From Rick Marken (921116.900)]

Martin Taylor (921113 17:10) --

>Rick Marken wants a recap of the Vallacher and Wegner paper on "What do people
>think they are doing."  Here are the relevant postings from Mark Olsen, Rick,
>and me.

Thanks.

The article seems to be about where people direct their consciousness
after performing control activity.

Mark says:

> The relationship between attention and location of error in the hierarchy
>is evident here and they point this out.

Martin says:

>A gross simplification of their claim is that if the actions that allow high-
>level control are easy, then what subjects see themselves as doing is what
>we would call satisfying the high-level reference.

This is all very nice but the Vallacher/Wegner study is not really relevant
to what I had in mind when coining PCT slogan # 1: "You can't tell what a
person is doing by just looking at what they are doing". The slogan refers
to the fact that an observer sees only observable aspects (sometimes
relavant actions, sometimes irrelevant side effects) of the process by
which a person controls their own perceptual experience (the behavior of
these perceptions being what we mean by "doing" in PCT). It seems to me
that Vallacher/Wegner assume that they already know what a person is doing
and are interested in how these doings are described.

Ed Ford (921114:1115)

>Any time I deal with anyone, whether in private practice or elsewhere,
>What I was explaining in Section B was the process, the standards
>to be considered and incorporated when teaching others how to obey
>rules or helping them learn how to function effectively in an
>environment where rules exist.

I just don't get it, Ed. What does "teaching standards" have to do with
a PCT based view of human nature? What I get from PCT is the idea that
nothing could be less important -- the actual substance of a persons
references for relationships, programs, categories, principles, "standards",
etc matters only in terms of how these satisfy higher level goals. The
system should just be error free -- and this happens by having working
(conflict free) control systems. Of course, such systems will be setting
the "right" references for perceptions like your "standards", but they
are right from the perspective of the control systems (they combine
appropriately with prevailing circumstances to achieve the higher level
goals. What is at any time a "right" setting for a particular standard
from the point of view of the control system may very well appear to be
a wrong setting from the point of view of someone who "knows the right
standards". I know that the people you are dealing with have interfered
seriously with other people in their efforts to achieve their goals. So,
obviously, your goal is teach them to act without hurting others -- ie.
"follow the rules". I think this is great -- but you should be clear that
this focuses your treatment strategy on getting a person to act in ways
that are better FOR YOU -- and, incidentally, for the person him/herself.

Avery Andrews (161128.1028)

>Gotta be quick, but I think I see a problem here.  You seem to be
>assuming that first the words get connected with imagined perceptions, then
>the imagined perceptions with actual ones, whereupon there is a
>sort of `negotiation' process whereby the imagined perceptions can
>be altered to a certain extent if they don't fit the actual ones.

When we hear speech (in a language we understand) we (I anyway) hear the
meanings (among other things) which are imagined perceptions -- not always
visual. The "check out" doesn't always happen -- what ususally happens
(I think) is an attempt to perceive that the person you are talking
to is understanding (imagining) what you are imagining (and trying to
communicate with words).

Best regards

Rick

     **************************************************************

Richard S. Marken                   USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation                   Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)
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