From: bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Rape vs. Seduction (WAS: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...)
Date: 11 Nov 1992 00:05:51 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

Comments on a discussion between  uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU 
(Robert Hartman) and  dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch).  The
discussion was sparked by the following quotation submitted by 
celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste):

>"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has
> not  been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and
> desire."
>		-- Robin Morgan, current editor of Ms. Magazine, in 1974

I have said before that one shouldn't ascribe too much significance to words
themselves, but concentrate on the meaning.  Thus I would have to defend
Robin Morgan (and Celeste) if they want to use 'rape' with that meaning.
However, if one accepts that definition, then 'rape' loses much its
brutal connotations.  Although the intention was to underscore the
seriousness of violating women sexually, the ultimate consequence might
be to trivialize the concept so that it is taken *less* seriously.

Another possibility is that the intention is to maintain a double
meaning--talk *as if* one were using the traditional definition but
covertly use the word with its expanded meaning.  Such a scheme would help
impress a point with statements like "one in every four women is raped",
but is hardly intellectually honest.  And the ultimate consequence of
*that* is that people will no longer take any "rape" statistics
seriously because "what do they mean by 'rape' anyway?"

Robert:>>>At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?
>>>
>>>I think it occurred at the last quoted line.  The perp made an agreement,
>>>then broke it, and demanded an additional sexual favor before performing
>>>as agreed.  At that point, as far as I'm concerned, it crosses the line
>>>into rape.

Dan:>>How about when the victim says:  "Get the hell out of here!" and the Perp
>>refuses?  Or when she tries to push him out the door, and he refuses?  She
>>has many options besides submitting, if she doesn't want to.  If all he
>>did was refuse to leave until she submitted, then I have no sympathy for
>>her.  

There is an aspect of courage in this too.  Is it too much to expect
people to assert their self-respect?  I think a self-respecting person
would refuse even the first demand, and show genuine indignation at any
persistence. 

Dan:>>Women can only be equal when they are willing and able to stand up for
>>themselves at the necessary times.  [...] Calling the Perp a rapist is
>>[  ... ] , saying that the Victim is not the social,
>>mental, or emotional equal of the Perp.

Robert: >You know, I think that what we have here is a classic miscommunication
>about the nature of equality.  Unlike the impression that many women
>have, and that many feminist subscribe to, it is simply not the case
>that men are raised to believe that their equal place in society is a
>given.  Men are taught from the beginning that they have to earn a
>place through, among other things, physical self defense.  [...] Whether the
>victim in this scenario is male or female, and I intentionally left out
>reference to gender, at the point where consent stops, I believe that
>that is where rape begins.  

I have said elsewhere that courage is a "masculine" virtue.  For this
reason I would expect more self-assertion on the part of a male victim
than a female one.  I think the sexes of the parties *are* relevant.  I
would be more sympathetic to a woman claiming that fear prevented her
>from pushing her seducer away.  It would take quite a lot of convincing
before I would believe that a man was raped by a woman. 

Robert:>That's why I think that the line is well placed.  That's where it
>stopped being consensual.  So what do _you_ call it when someone demands
>nonconsensual sexual favors under threat (express or implied) of violence?

In the scenario Robert describes, I would not call it rape. If the
perpetrator did threaten violence, I would still have to consider how
serious that threat was.  The victim would have to be convinced that the
perpetrator had both intent and means to carry out the violence--it
would not be sufficient for him/her just to say e.g.,"If you don't submit, I
don't know what I might do!"

It's best to stick with conventional definitions so that people will
know what you're talking about.  The usual meaning of 'rape' implies
violence, or at least the serious threat of violence.  I would not call
an incident 'rape' unless violence was present.  

Robert:>I'm deadly serious.  I'm asking you.  Fits of pique aside, what _do_ you
>call it?

There is a perfectly good word to denote the sorts of scenarios that
Robert et al.  have been discussing: 'seduction'.  

Dan:>>Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
>>buyer being the Victim.  
Robert:
>But this is more akin to the door-to-door salesman who just won't leave
>until you hand over your credit card.  YOu can't walk out because the
>salesman is already in your _home._

If we distinguish between armed robbers and unscrupulous salesmen, then
we should distinguish between rape and seduction.  In both cases the end
result is the same, but I think the methods have to be taken into account.

Robert:>Perhaps we need a misdemeanor rape for
>cases in which no explicit threats of violence are used.

Perhaps the problem is that there is no law against seduction (to my
knowldege).  Maybe there ought to be. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



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