From: runyan@cup.hp.com (Mark Runyan)
Subject: Re: Lacarno = Kirk (Spoilers "1st Duty)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 15:28:44 GMT
Organization: HP, Cupertino, CA, USA

kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>runyan@cup.hp.com (Mark Runyan) writes:
>> kyle@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>Starfleet's opinion doesn't matter when you're trying to determine whether
>Starfleet's opinion matters, if you get my meaning.  

I think I get your meaning, but I'm not sure I agree.  My discussion on
this so far has been an attempt to point out why Starfleet had the right
(or need) to wash out Locarno based solely on Starfleet regulations, and
not on a general argument of whether what was done was good or bad.  For
the latter argument, we'd have to agree on good or bad and it seems that
your entire position was to call into question some of the basic
assumptions of good/bad definitions.  I used what I think Starfleet's
definitions are merely because I believe Starfleet has the right to
define what its membership should be.  I suppose we could argue that,
too, no?

>Wes had the option of giving his teammates a second chance.
>Resigning was the most non-judgmental way to go.  

You have a point there.  If Wes wanted to be non-judgmental, he could
have simply resigned, as Locarno suggested.  Of course, once a person
whose judgement you have reason to question suggests a course of action,
you might choose to be quite cautious about that course of action.  I
still maintain that Wes did consider the various alternatives and the
one he choose was based on his training and upbringing and the choice
was the best choice for Starfleet by Starfleet's definition.

>> > Starfleet apparently teaches that it is good to tell the truth to
>> > folks who're on your side.  It's OK to deceive and lie to the
>> > enemy to protect  yourself and your comrades.
>> Yes, that does appear to be Starfleet tactics.  The problem that command
>> officers must solve is "who's the enemy".  It's that judgement that I
>> would think Starfleet (or any hierarchical organization) would worry
>> about.
>Agreed.  This is exactly why you should ignore them when forming
>an opinion on their rules and regulations.  

Sorry, I guess I'm not following along here on this point.  It seems we
are in agreement on some point but basically in disagreement, but the
fuzz factor has gotten to me...   :-)   Guess I never was very good at
these deep philosophical discussions...

>> >... I think Starfleet is a bunch of hypocrites, making examples
>> >of those who break the rules and fail, and lauding those who
>> >break the rules and succeed.  
>> Hypocrites or pragmatist, eh?  It is a matter of perspective.  ...
>What about punishing the successes and doing a bit of
>self-examination at the failures, too?  

Punish success?  Whyever would you do that, sirrah?  To keep those who
couldn't succeed from trying and failing horribly?  But, but, but...
Didn't you say that people should take responsibility for their own
actions and now your saying Starfleet should protect them from
themselves.

Well, Starfleet probably does try to protect them from themselves, hence
the rules, regulations, and duties.  But who declared that Starfleet had
to be consistent?  By allowing successes to happen without severe
punishment, Starfleet would not limit the ability of a person to some
perceived `standard cadet'.  Would Locarno and Nova Squadern have been
lauded if they had succeeded?  Probably.  Based on what we know of
Starfleet from TOS, TAS, TNG, and non-canon sources, the answer would be
`Of course'!  And the Culvort maneuver would still be forbidden.

>Still, losing a career in space exploration is a pretty tough
>pill to take, particularly when the folks holding the reins are a
>stodgy bunch like Starfleet.  Too bad space privatization never
>got off the ground. :-(

First, all he was limited from was Starfleet.  We've seen more than
enough scientists about to realize you can get into space without
meeting the acting requirements, er, um, I mean, graduation requirements
of Starfleet.  Second, we know from episodes like `Angel One' that there
are space vessels other than Starfleet ships that are private
freighters.  And, finally, it wasn't my impression that the "stodgy
bunch" (SB) of Starfleet were holding any more reins than over their own
command structure.  Locarno won't be able to work in Starfleet aboard
the best ships with the best crew working on the best problems.  Being
drummed out of Starfleet may be a bad mark on one's work record (I don't
think we've seen enough of the Federation civilization to know for
certain), but Locarno may still be able to make it into space aboard a
freighter.  So, in conclusion (for that final paragraph) I'd say we've
shown that Locarno is not a Kirk clone, but is instead a Han Solo
clone...  :-)

Mark Runyan