HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: repost
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 18:44:43 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <nyikos.714320492@milo.math.scarolina.edu>  nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>
> Admittedly, there are weak points in the book.  The idea that the
> experience of the WEBA women is statistically the same as that of
> abortions in general is the weakest, and seems downright silly to me.

Exactly - start an organization for women traumatized by ice cream cones,
take a poll of the members, and I'd bet that you'd come to the conclusion
that eating ice cream cones can be very traumatic.

> >You're incorrect.  Neuroscientists place the minimal time for
> >personhood at 7 *months* (28 weeks).
>
> This is bullshit.  There are people calling themselves bioethicists
> that say this.  Please name some neuroscientists, and I'll name some
> others that say differently.

"Documentary challenges claim of fetal pain", in the
Ann Arbor News, 31 August 1985:

     "Does the brain even exist at conception?" narrator
     Jaworski asks early in the broadcast.

     "NO!!!" shoots back Dr. Michael Bennett, chairman
     of the neuroscience department at New York's Albert
     Einstein School of Medicine.

     "Can there be a person without a brain?" Jaworski inquires.

     "No, no way," replies Bennett.  "You can't be a person
     without a brain, you can't be a dog without a brain,
     you can't be a cat without a brain or a chicken without
     a brain."

     Though her documentary did turn out to be a rebuttal to
     "The Silent Scream", Jaworski admits she was uncertain
     which way her research would lead her when she began the
     project.

     But to a person, Jaworski's "impeccably credentialed"
     scientists concurred that "there are no brain neurons
     prior to four weeks of fetal development.  They contend
     that the cerebral cortex, the portion of the brain
     needed for thought, feelings and conscious awareness,
     is the last part of the brain to fully develop."

     In fact, asserts neurologist and neuroscientist Dr.
     Dominick Purpura, former dean of the Stanford University
     School of Medicine, and current dean at Albert Einstein
     School of Medicine, before the 28th week of development
     the cortex lacks sufficient axons, dendrites and synapses
     to sustain the processes of thought, feeling and aware-
     ness the documentary deems necessary for "personhood".

     "We're putting the boundary condition, the limit, the
     minimal time for personhood to begin," Purpura says.  "It's
     not three months, it's not two months, it's seven months.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Why do they call themselves "pro-life"?
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:41:00 GMT
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco

In article <14252@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> pburch@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch) writes:
>The Republican party now has as one of their priorities banning ALL
>abortions. As about 1% of all pregnancies in the US are ectopic, this
>would sentence millions of women to a painful and pointless death.
>PLEASE correct me if this is a mis-reading of the Republican platform! 

I think this stand is in the minority; the popular stand appears to be
"no abortions except in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the
mother's life."

This suggests to me that Republicans think that a life created through
non-consensual sex is somehow less than a life created through
consensual sex -- the stand you asked about makes more sense to me,
but keeping abortion out of politics altogether seems the most logical
to me.

     << Brian >>

-- 
_/_/_/       Brian Kendig  Macintosh Jedi           Live never to be ashamed
 _/_/   Starfleet Captain  Oracle Employee         if anything you do or say
  _/  Intrepid Adventurer  Saturn SL2 Owner    is published around the world
      bskendig@netcom.com  Twin Peaks Junkie    -- even if what is published
    Princeton '92! BSE/CS  Writer/Actor/Singer                   is not true.
From: cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com (C.J. Silverio)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Observations
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:14:19 GMT
Reply-To: cj@sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA


In article <1992Aug20.014351.34648@watson.ibm.com>, Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com> writes:
|cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com (C.J. Silverio) writes:
||Most posters to talk.abortion find your approach to unwanted
||pregnancy utterly unrealistic.  Most people prefer to concentrate
||on other ways of coping, such as:
||    improved sex education
||    improved access to birth control
||    other ways to prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the 1st place
||    helping women get into circumstances where they're more
||         likely to consider having children

|Does research into improved methods of birth control fall under
|"other ways"?  If not, I think it should be added to your list.

Good point.  I'll include that one next time I do my stock
response to people who waltz in here & demand that the whole
world stop having sex immediately.

---
cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com      C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"I hate it when you want a coke from the coke machine but it's the 
kind of coke machine without an ethernet connection so you have to 
walk over there yourself."  --Sho Kuwamoto
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Re: LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:42:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.200356.9659@ncsu.edu> dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.142040.13003@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> 
>bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>> The polls show that the majority of Republicans favor choice.  

- Epitaph for John Campbell, pro-abort Republican US Senatorial
Candidate in California, who got a new asshole burned for him by
pro-life Republican candidate Bruce Herschensohn, in the June primary. 

In the liberal state of CA, of course. 

- Epitaph for Ann Stone's Republicans for Choice as she bailed out of
her well-ignored Houston-bound Caravan for Choice (a single Ryder
truck), to avoid the Press. 


>> The polls show that the majority of Republicans favor choice.  

Famous last words just before Stone got her walled out in her own 
Virginia 8th District. 


>Do you have a source for this claim, or is this just more of your bullshit?

Sounds like it's more of the latter. Then again, shit is as shit does.
 

===============================================================================
			Robert Casey for President '96! 
			 This Casey never strikes out.
===============================================================================
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Alias Borgie Boy, the BorgBarian, Inturdgent, Propeller Boy, and other
scornful names heaped upon me during my lifetime...
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Rephrased: a war behind the Iron Curtain (was Re: A crack in the iron curtain?
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:02:54 GMT

Just as fast as Jim Miller breaks news about me, a flamewar between
pro-aborts is long underway.

At least _I_ have the sense to modernize and improve... This is what
happens with those who _don't_... 

In article <1992Aug16.182316.13328@crd.ge.com> james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com> writes:
>eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

Oh, yeah, she's definitely outa my KILLfile now. I've GOTTA see this.

>-> Keegan apparently wants to resume our flamewar over
>-> whether or not I'm a pro-choicer....
>
>that may be your interpretation, ms. bartley, but it's
>not so. now let's see what i might have said to cause
>you to make that blatent assertion and offer no
>evidence whatsoever to support it.

Of course Keegan is Lefty's only friend and Lefty is Keegan's only
friend. Not even EE Bartley wants to identify with him. 

>-> In article <1992Aug16.134958.28706@crd.ge.com>
>-> james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com> writes:
>-> >eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes to chaneyhall:
>-> 
>-> >-> But take Kaufman's ravings away, whether or not
>-> >-> you take away yours -- please!  I'm embarrassed
>-> >-> that he's on my side.
>-> 
>-> >i don't believe he is on your side, ms. bartley.
>-> 
>-> I'd love to disown him, Keegan.  You too, frankly.
>
>you don't own either of us, ms. bartley. nor are either
>of us related to you in any way that i can observe.
>what exactly is it that you'd love to disown

She definitely doesn't want to own your typing skills, that's for
sure.


[deletia; all you missed is a slow-motion depiction of how a tiny
flame hits fuel and turns into an explosion...] 


===============================================================================
			Robert Casey for President '96! 
			 This Casey never strikes out.
===============================================================================
===============================================================================
BBBBBB     OOOOOOOO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    Founder: Steve Chaney 
B    B     O      O   S         S          <chaneysa@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu> 
BBBBBBBB   O     OO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    
BB     B   O     OO        SS        SS    Borg Operating 
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	       The B.O.S.S. does not speak for CSUS. 

Alias Borgie Boy, the BorgBarian, Inturdgent, Propeller Boy, and other
scornful names heaped upon me during my lifetime...
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton
From: dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Other Flip-Floppers on abortion
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:23:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.224439.14754@nwnexus.WA.COM> 
jbrindle@halcyon.com (Jennifer Brindle) writes:

>dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>> It appears that the radical pro-abortionists in the Democratic party 
>> have forced Mr. Clinton to embrace a minority-held position. 

> You're going to have to prove that pro-choice position is a "minority-held"
> position.  

The Democratic party supports Roe v. Wade, which is essentially unrestricted 
abortion on demand throughout the term of pregnancy.  Only about 30% of 
Americans support unrestricted abortion on demand.  See the quote below.  
If anyone wants additional documentation, please send me e-mail. 


  "The final stage of pregnancy under Roe v. Wade occurs after the
   fetus becomes viable[4]. After viability, the state could regulate
   or prohibit abortions unless they were ``necessary, in appropriate
   medical judgement'', to preserve the life or health of the woman.
   This standard must be read, however, in light of the Court's
   decision the same day in Doe v. Bolton, that clinical judgement
   ``may be exercised in light of all factors -- physical, emotional,
   psychological, familial, and the woman's age -- relevant to the
   well-being of the patient[5]. Thus, the Court nominally allowed
   the state to prohibit post-viability abortions except in apparently
   limited cases, but it actually defined the limitation in a way
   that bars the state from prohibiting such abortions if physicians
   are willing to perform them."


   Mark Tushnet, "The Supreme Court on Abortion: A Survey",
   Abortion, Medicine, and the Law, Third Edition, 1986, pg. 162

   [4] 410 U.S. at 163-164
   [5] 410 U.S. 179 (1973)


>Jennifer


Doug Holtsinger

"Take responsibility for your children, or we will force you to do it."
 -- Bill Clinton, speaking at the Democratic National Convention

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.flame
From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: The Man With No Brain (Was: The world...)
Keywords: imbicle, and other spelling disasters from Keith Cochran
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 07:05:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.015507.4422@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>[Oh, boy.  This is gonna be such fun....]
>
>In article <1992Aug8.211228.6510@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug5.233416.17391@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>>In article <BsEyL8.Cr9@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Elvis) writes:
>>>>   Linda, your mastery of the English language NEVER ceases to amaze me.
>>>>Only Linda takes 4 adjectives, strings them together (separated by
>>>>commas of course) and turns them into verbal music! Bravo maestro!
>>>
>>>Let me guess:  it's the same type of verbal music you make when Kevin's trying
>>>to find his miniscule penis so that he can put it into your anus, right?
>>
>>Just what we need... another damned homophobe crawling out from under his
>>rock... sheesh, where do these neanderthals come from anyway?
>
>Um, Kevin.  Go find your mother, and ask her to explain what the word
>"homosexual" means.  I'll even give you a *FREE* clue.  I don't hate myself.

Then why do you spew homophobic shit that ranks with the Artimus Pages and
Phil Stromers and Danny Karneses of the world?

Ever hear of a racist black? An anti-feminist woman? An anti-semitic Jew?

Homophobic shit deserves as much criticism regardless of its source. Or is
it your claim that it was all just playful sarcasm? Yeah, right.

								- Kevin
From: katy@clipper.ingr.com (Katy Yanda)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Do All AntiAbortionists Support SnuffPorn?
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:19:27 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA

In article <1992Aug18.113652.13161@wetware.com>, drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:

[ stuff deleted for 'brevity' ]

> 
> while we are on down this way,
> 
> anyone up for a happy evening of vidio on
> how to deal with your friend the sucking chest wound....
> 
> Maybe a little 'traumatic amputation' and how to 
> keep your budy alive after a 7.62mm round has decided
> to do a little reconstructive surgery.....
> 
> Come On now Guy....
> 
> Show the Little Woman Something that will be useful....
> 
> How about the major Artories, and How to Stuff anything
> that is available into them after an 'improvised munnition'
> has decided to open most of them....
> 
> Come on now Warren, don't be squimish, 
> watch the BLOOD go squirting out of the 
> side of the Head as an American Made 5.56mm
> round opens the Left hemisphere of a Head....
> 
> 
> How about We skip past the neat and simple stuff
> and go for the apeseotomy, and the surgeon as
> he applies the sutures, what with COLD STEEL
> ripping through the Flesh, and tailing 'cat gut'
> behind it....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ciao
> drieux
> 

[ great .sig deleted ]

Gee, isn't that why we have Lifetime Medical Television
on Sundays? 

One of the best operations was the one where a woman had
a breast reconstruction using a portion of her belly - skin,
fat, navel and all!  As my ex said," There goes a woman
with a nipple on one side and a navel on the other!"

Katy

-- 
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: smccabe@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah A McCabe)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The "abortion on demand" myth:  anti-choice scare tactics
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:45:24 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <RJOHNSON.92Aug19101825@conus.shell.com> rjohnson@shell.com (Roy Johnson) writes:
>I think Doug wanted to address the *legality* of the situation, which
>is what the abortion debate is about.  Would it be OK with you if we
>were to legislate the status quo: no third-trimester abortions for other
>than (serious) medical reasons?  If not, do you support the "abortion-on-
>demand throughout the term of pregnancy" that Doug is concerned about?

Actually, I personally do support "abortion on demand" throughout pregnancy,
but I am willing to live with the legal compromise you suggest.  Of course
that is exactly the situation in RvW and the FOCA so I guess you support
both of those as well?

Sarah McCabe
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com (J H Woodyatt)
Subject: Re: Observations
Reply-To: bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com
Organization: Abiogenesis 4 Less
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 04:23:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.210947.26366@spdc.ti.com>, serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:
# How can you call a pregnancy that occured as a direct result of the 
# animal desires of a man and a woman "forced pregnancy".  When will YOU 
# understand that YOU must take responsibility for YOUR actions.  If you 
# are not willing or able to take a pregnancy to term then maybe you should 
# not be having sex.  

Maybe you should explain why we should share your conviction that the
circumstance of pregnancy implies a responsibility to carry said
pregnancy to term.

It's not at all obvious to me. In fact, the whole concept seems
elusive.

-- 
J H Woodyatt (a.k.a. Dr. Strychnine)
Space Systems/Loral

Tired of `short, shameful confessions?'  Too old for `one line bios?'
`Rictus Hep' just too bizarre?  Try *NEW* ----> `I resolve...'  It's
the latest craze!  Tastes great!  Low in saturated fat!  And!!  It
doesn't leave you drowsy like those other brands!  New `I resolve...'
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
Subject: Re: Dodge _THIS_...
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:54:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.033712.19358@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>In  <1992Aug15.205407.9744@csus.edu>  chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug13.005840.139822@cs.cmu.edu> kck+@cs.cmu.edu (Karl Kluge) wri
>>
>> >A -- Minors are entitled to exercise the right of privacy at the same level
>> >as adults.
>> >
>> >B. -- Minors are competent to give consent to sex with an adult.
>> >
>> >C. -- Minors are competent to give consent to an abortion without parental
>> >consent.
>>
>> B and C are dependent on A.
>
>(In Florida; according to Judge Lockett)
>
>Your previous claim was that being in favor of B mean being in favor
>of C, which is clearly not correct.  I'm glad to see that you've backed
>off from this.

But that's not the only corner you're backed up into, on this issue.
You've still got to explain to the American people how it got to be
that the same foundation you claim supports your abortion rights
claim, supports legal adult/child sex. With consent, of course.

At least we pro-lifers can swat off the Fundamentalist stuff, but then
again, no court said that pro-life depends on things that justify
Fundamentalism... 

>> >Which means that your statement above "According to Judge Lockett, to have
>> >abortion rights, you must invalidate statutory rape laws" is incorrect.
>>
>> No, my statement is,
>
>You mean your *new* statement, now that it's finally been made clear to
>you that your previous statement (which Mr. Kluge quoted) is incorrect.

Okay, here we go again... 

1) To have abortion rights, you must have privacy as currently
(and absurdly) interpreted. (Hereby said as privacy "".)  
2) To have legal adult/child sex (with consent, of course), you have 
to have privacy "".
3) To have abortion rights, you must have privacy "", which means you
will have, through privacy "", adult/child sex. With the child's
consent, of course. 

In a roundabout and demonstrable way, I'm still right. 

>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)


===============================================================================
			Robert Casey for President '96! 
			 This Casey never strikes out.
===============================================================================
===============================================================================
BBBBBB     OOOOOOOO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    Founder: Steve Chaney 
B    B     O      O   S         S          <chaneysa@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu> 
BBBBBBBB   O     OO   SSSSSSS   SSSSSSS    
BB     B   O     OO        SS        SS    Borg Operating 
BBBBBBBB O OOOOOOOO O SSSSSSS O SSSSSSS O  Space Systems, Revision 2.0 

	       The B.O.S.S. does not speak for CSUS. 

Alias Borgie Boy, the BorgBarian, Inturdgent, Propeller Boy, and other
scornful names heaped upon me during my lifetime...
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: Revised consistency check
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:12:53 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Aug19.035037.13699@cco.caltech.edu> tlynch@cco.caltech.edu writes:

> Fine.  Find some.  Like it or not, the vast, *vast* majority of both delegates
> and speakers at the RNC this week are white males.  (Is there *any* black
> person who's speaking at the convention, for that matter?  I'm not up on 
> the scheduling, since I plan to stay far away from most of the coverage.)

  Louis Sullivan spoke last night.  And the tv guys made (IMO) a point of
showing several black delegates.

  Supposedly they will have an AIDS sufferer tonight, along with Marilyn Quayle
and Barbara Bush (Ms. Bush I think I will tune in for).

  Huh?  Yeah, I watched some of it in between chapters of my Civil War book.
Kemp made a good speech, Gramm's was a little slow but had a good joke or two.

> Now, let's *try* to keep this civil, okay?  
> Tim Lynch

  Good luck.

semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion