From: johnsd2@vccsouth16.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: CLI advantages (was Re: Macintosh bigots)
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccsouth16.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:34:41 GMT

In article 92Nov16122752@onion.cmu.edu, gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
>It seems that y'all are seeing the trees, but not the forest.

Dang, now where'd I leave that forest?

> With a
>CLI, the user can basically do anything he wants.  If the exact
>tool isn't there, you hook two existing tools with a pipe or write a
>shell script.

With a CLI a user can do anything for which a tool is provided.
With a GUI the user can do anything for which a tool is provided.
 
Scripts do not require CLIs; I like scripts, and which the Mac had them.
I do NOT like CLIs and don't want one.

GUI can have tools added to them wo/ and difficulty. This is commonplace
on the Mac. (they are however rather more complex to write!)

Piping is notably absent from the Macs GUI. I generally find that
I only use Pipes in Unix to do things that should not be necessary-
pipe something to more or grep usually. I have seen uncountable
numbers of complex pipes that do marvelous things (or dumb things,
or whatnot)- IF you can remember 245 different commands with 3 letter
names plus their switches. :)

>  With a GUI, however, you are entirely at the mercy of
>the GUI designer, who has decided for you what tools you will use and
>in what manner you can use them.

This is only true if you strech "GUI designer" to mean "anyone
who makes any component of your software". In this case,
it applies to CLIs too.

>  The GUI is quite sufficient for Joe
>Average User who never needs to push the system's envelope.  However,
>I defy any GUI user to show me how they would emulate the UNIX find
>command.  (Keep in mind find's options... that's what makes it such a
>wonderful utility and so hard to GUIate (new verb!))

I like the verb.

I too have heard of Find; I know of no GUI which provides an exact
equivalent. But this does not mean it cannot be done. The most
difficult aspect of it is Finds ability to lanch annother app
and have act based on the error code returned. I know of no
mac find that can do this, but it can be done with apple events
(which do return error codes)

>As anologies I offer the following:

Analogies aren't very usefull, but what the hell.

>1-Automatic transmission vs standard transmission.  The AT is
>perfectly acceptable for most people and for many of the rest, it
>would suffice in a high percentage of driving situations.  However,
>the driver has little control over gear shifts, etc.  The ST gives you
>complete control at all times.  Conclusion: A more complex mechanism
>simplifies the operator interface but limits choices.

Right; now why do you suppose most people use standard? Possibly
because the added "feature" of direct gear control isnt worth
the pain of monkeying with it?

Just so with GUIs and CLIs.

>2-Framemaker vs TeX.  Framemaker is great for memo, papers, articles
>with lots of pictures, etc.  But, push on it a bit, and all sorts of
>limitations and features :-( appear.  TeX, on the other hand, will do
>anything you can imagine, and then some.  However, it is more complex
>to use, harder to learn and harder to use.  Conclusion: A more complex
>mechanism simplifies the operator interface but limits choices.

I am not familiar enough with TeX; I dont use it. Someone else
will have to deal with this. (tho from what I hear its really
awfull, but NOT CLI based..)

>So, in conlcusion: Keep thing in perspective.

Always a good idea.

>  GUI's are useful but
>they do not possess the capabilities of a CLI,

If you choose specific cases you may demonstrate this to be
true a CLI and a GUI. But can you demonstrate that it
is true of all CLIs and all GUIs? I very much doubt it.

> and those capabilties are sometimes required.

I dont seem to require them; do you? If you need facilities
that only appear in a CLI, use the CLI. But wish for a GUI
that could do that. :)

[deletia- big old sig]

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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