HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 15:28:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.204520.17510@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>You know, this sounds good.  My only problem lies in the gray areas,
>where nobody is physically forcing you to do anything, but you get
>pressured into something nonetheless.
[the life anecdote deleted]

This is ``emotional blackmail.'' Typical between loved ones and
especially among members of family. And this has little to do with the
custom of arranged marriages. Most of the ills in arranged marriages,
as I see, are in the non-dating schemes, obviously precluding physical
interaction, proposed by elders.  While one can argue ad nauseum
whether dating is perfect, in terms of the future it is the only way
to go. Of course, one can see technology coming to the rescue here
like video dating, phone dating, etc. But then, so long the one-on-one
interaction is provided, including physical intimacy, irrespective of
how the introduction took place, everything is fine. Indeed this is
the premise of dating services that seem to be thriving pretty well
lately. They are not cheap either! Did any one here try them?



Murthy
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: to be or not to be (Re: Desi friends)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:44:03 GMT

=====================================
 moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>You know, this sounds good.  My only problem lies in the gray areas,
>where nobody is physically forcing you to do anything, but you get
>pressured into something nonetheless.
>---x----
>[delete story]
>---x----
>What do you think?  I don't feel their emotional manipulation is
>unfair...she thinks it's just the way they try to take care of her.
>(Never mind the fact that she is perfectly capable of taking care of
>herself).
>
> - Amirthi

 Resolution of gray areas usually is best done by communication. A
 communication that involves - in this situation - both cross examining 
 her parents and self examining herself.

 Parents:
 I wonder what is the real source of pressure - concern for her happiness
 or peer/family pressure or something else or all of these. 

 If they want to take care of her, have they asked what is it that "she
 wants." What values, what kind of personality makes her go nuts :)
 It is possible that they may meet someone who measures up her standards
 and they set up a get together. If they haven't asked her what she wants, 
 may be she should let them know what type of person she wants. 

 If they were influential in all her past decisions, then it is natural
 for them to influence this decision of her. At least they will try.

 Her:
 Is she the "shy-type" - doesn't want to debate with her parents on what she
 wants or doesn't want?  

 From your post, she seems to know that she doesn't want an arranged marriage. 
 Thats the first step - knowing what one doesn't want. The next step is 
 to know what one wants. Well, does she know what she wants? 

 After communication:
 Well, if she and her parents come to understand each other, that would
 be excellent. But, communication ain't that easy. Sometimes, or should I say
 most of the times, it is easier to misunderstand than to understand. If she
 has always accepted her parent's suggestions, it would be very difficult for
 them to accept this new "her." 

 If she does find (and gets married to) the man she will be happy with, 
 it is more than likely that with time, her parents will accept her decision.

 I think it is best to first take care of oneself. 

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar)
Subject: Re: Lighten up people!
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:01:16 GMT

In <1992Jul21.184718.1@wharton.upenn.edu> kamdar64@wharton.upenn.edu writes:


>	To Venu (I believe that's your name) I think I read the most absurd
>comment from you! (no offense!) You made it seem like IA women have it so much
>easier than IA men!?!?!?!? That's ridiculous (Of course, that is, coming from a
>female perspective!) Wait, where are the other female opinions on this subject-
>I can't believe I'm the only one who disagrees!


A couple of points:

No offense taken...the whole idea of posting an article is to get a
discussion going. But, I don't really know which article you are
discussing...it has been a long time since I posted an article here. Perhaps
if you quoted relevant sections of the article, and explained why you felt
what I said is not applicable it would be more contextual. I do wish to have
other opinions on the subject.

And, did I really make it seem that IA women have an easier time than men?
That really wasn't the idea I wanted to convey...I was trying to rationalize
some of the points Ron put forward, and understand them. 
-- 
Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com
Cirrus Logic Inc.		|		(510)-226-2100 X3737
Yield to Temptation ... it may not pass your way again.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian-american
From: raja@arirang.cps.msu.edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Subject: Green Cards or Green blood? (Vulcans and Indians)
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian-american
Reply-To: raja@cps.msu.edu
Organization: Pattern Recognition & Image Processing, MSU
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 19:17:44 GMT


Been catching up on Star Trek lately,
and noticed quite a few similarities
between Indian and Vulcan society
(you know, Spock and those other 
green-blooded, pointy-eared folks) --


1. Vegetarianism
2. Arranged marriages
3. Meditation
4. Enforced celibacy, leading up to 
     a state of sexual frenzy

Are we actually even more Alien
than the INS believes?  Comments?

Live long and prosper,


Narayan Sriranga Raja.


Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mgundeko@pcserver2.Naitc.Com (Murthy Gundekota)
Subject: Re: Parental racism (was Re: Lighten up people!)
Organization: Somewhere near Chicago
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 21:10:12 GMT

In article <bjag-240792124636@owl.ls.nwu.edu> bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:
>I understood(kind of) the development of racism against the poorer
>minorities in the US (though I certain don't think it's any less bad for
>that), but I really don't understand the development of this racism against
>Jews. Why do you think your father's developed this "Jews control money &
>the press"  mentality? 

The so called ``mentality'' also happens to be based on facts. So
what's wrong with that? However, to deny a Jewish person an
opportunity to manage a newspaper or a bank, using that fact alone is
wrong. And that is called racism. 


Murthy
From: shangari9701@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: RE: Views of Race
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:49:00 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In response to the article by name: "HIRA"...........
-------------------------------
  I agree with him about when I meet white person, whether it is male or
 female, I do act and talk differently than black or Hispanic person.
 I have dealt with hispanic guys especially, and I am not bias towards them
 or so, it's just 20 hispanic guys harrassed me with sex talk, dating, etc...
 and it really scared the hell out of me. Hispanics get mistaken me of being
 one of their race. I mean sometimes it is funny, when they start talking to me
 in spanish (espanio....), I say," I speak no spanish".So,  from now onwards,
 I try to stay away from Hispanics. 
                Whereas, when it comes to blacks, they are okay in terms of
communicating with them in their style. Black people give better response to
desi's than white person does. Why? Because black are minorities too, so are
desis. I not really biased towards blacks, but I am hesitant to interact 
with them than I would do with whites.
                It also depends upon experience with these races too. I don't
have any black friends, except one or two, and it's no problem. But my whole
college life, and beyond that I have no problem dealing with whites. As a
matter of fact, my family have the same feeling towards blacks and whites.
                That's my point of view to this article. Any other inputs,
please feel free to respond me back either by newsgroup or through email.
        

                BYE FOR NOW
                        SONIA
                 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur)
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:50:26 GMT

In article <4550@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:

>                                                             
>Well, the problem that I see with arranged marriages is that it sometimes
>precludes any chance of meeting a spouse other ways. There are plenty of 
>men and women who fully expect to have arranged marriages but are at the
>same time playing the dating field. The problem arises when the person 
>cannot tell his or her family that he or she is dating someone. There is 
>plenty of pressure within american society to have a girl/boyfriend at all 
>times, and many of the people who want arranged marriages want to have it
>both ways. My guess is that most of the men have a much easier time telling
>parents that their dating someone than women. 
>
>These observations are from an experience that I had with a woman who wanted
>to have her cake and eat it too, and she did at my expense.
>
>BTW, I see no problem with arranged marriages in general, (after all that's
>how my folks met) but I do have some reservations with an institution when it 
>becomes inflexible. 
>
>Ron

In the same spirit, it is possible to argue that if even one couple has an 
arranged marriage, then it restricts the 'natural selection' choices of others,
and thus the two systems cannot co-exist, or at least, it is impossible to 
treat the two choices as equally legitimate. Of course, things are not 
always so straightforward; for example, it is increasingly turning out that 
that the criteria involved in the 'enlightened' arranged marriages are 
frequently the same as those in the 'natural selection' marriages - which 
is, high correlation in education, income, status, intelligence (?), looks, 
and so on, between the two parties involved. 
It is then impossible really to distinguish between the two kinds of 
marriages, except by introducing a distinction based on how the couple 
were introduced to each other; whether they met through relatives, were 
marrying a co-religionist, or whether they met at work, in school or so 
on. In this connection, I at least find it quite difficult to conceptually 
distinguish a marriage where the couple say they 'met at Church', let us 
say, from one in which the couple were 'parentally introduced', based 
on similar criteria. 


Satyen


Satyen

-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Satyen Baindur  (baindur@eta.pha.jhu.edu)
Physics and Astronomy
Johns Hopkins University
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Serving The Society
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:08:46 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:

>ps: I don't believe in serving the society, I think each individual should
>    serve the best within himself/herself. And destine his or her own 

Sometimes people forget that bringing joy to others (this is one way I would
interpret the phrase "serving the society") can bring joy to oneself (this is
what I thought you are saying by "serve the best within himself/herself").
When you make a kid laugh, it pleases you as well, even though it didn't
bring any physical pleasure (sight/sound/smell/taste/touch) to you. The
pleasure was all mental.

Sumitro
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: srin@cs.utexas.edu (Srinivas Nedunuri)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: White Guys Superior?
Date: 28 Jul 1992 20:53:13 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



In article <1992Jul28.194939.18681@samba.oit.unc.edu> Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy) writes:
>In article <152bo1INNd22@cs.utexas.edu> srin@cs.utexas.edu (Srinivas Nedunuri) writes:
>[in response to Ron Hira's friend's comments]
>>
>[stuff about colonialism and "even" white liberals' superiority
>complex deleted]
>>generally ignorable. Like all stereotypes this opinion does have a ring of
>>truth to it. And as long as Asians continue to conform to their own self-
>>imposed stereotype this attitude among whites will only continue.
>>
>>On a similar vein, there have been various comments about how "its easier"
>>(from a dating point of view ) for Asian women than for Asian men. This 
>>in fact almost follows logically from the general widely held views that
>>whites have of Asians. Since Joe Public is interested in a "submissive"
>>woman its only natural he would expect to make it with any Asian woman that
>>appeals to him. Jane Private, on the other hand, is looking for a "powerful" man so there's no way an Asian geek would fit the bill. In fact I would be very
>>surprised if it were otherwise.
>
>Is this an attempt at exposing a stereotype or reinforcing it? At first
>glance it seems as if you are finally about to rise above all the
>caricatures of human beings discussed so far. And then, a very logical
>conclusion that Asian women are subservient (albeit in the white -
>no "even" liberal qualifiers here - view) and that Asian men are geeky.
>I don't meant to say that you are being simply politically incorrect. In
>fact, the pit you fell into is quite a bit deeper than that, IMHO.
>
>Just wondering if it was just a faux pas ..
>OR is the "almost logically" an escape clause?
>
>Sthan.

No faux pas' (faux pases? faux paux? faux paws? four paws? Oh well, you know
what I mean!) here, I was simply pointing out a surprising number of Asians 
do actually think along the lines that Ron's friend mentioned (specifically
her relatives(?) suggestions). A suprising number of whites realize this and
act accordingly. Thus the sterotype is perpetuated. It may take only a few 
people to make a sterotype but it takes many more to change it. In the 
meantime its rough on those that don't want to conform to the sterotype.

As for the stuff about dating, my point was that given the above sterotype,
a "theorem" (albeit not very significant one) is the situation of Asian
gals vis-a-vis Asian guys. I say "almost follows logically" since a couple of
other minor assumptions might be needed to get a proof :-)

--s;













   
    
     
    
    

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:45:20 GMT

In article <MSANGHVI.92Jul28185204@cs.ulowell.edu> msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu writes:

>yes i agree with Bharathi (spelled it correctly didn't i?? :) ). If the man and
>the woman involved agree then there is nothing wrong with arranged marriages. 
>The only situation i can think of in which i would be opposed to the idea of an
>arranged marriage would be one in which either party was forced into it by the
>respective family.

You know, this sounds good.  My only problem lies in the gray areas,
where nobody is physically forcing you to do anything, but you get
pressured into something nonetheless.

To be more specific, a close friend of mine has been living in the US
for over 8 years now.  She still wants to marry an Indian, but mainly
because she doesn't want to upset her family.  Okay, I can deal with
that, there are a lot of Indians for her to choose from, and I'm sure
she could be happy with one of them.

However, she is terrified by the prospect of an arranged marriage
(having seen some pretty awful ones) and yet doesn't have the heart to
tell her family that she doesn't want one because she thinks it will
hurt them too much.

I think a marriage she has to live with the rest of her life is more
important than the possible hurt feelings of her family, but she has a
much stronger sense of duty to them, and has difficulty withstanding
the pressure they've started placing on her to get married quickly,
before she becomes an old maid (she's 21).

What do you think?  I don't feel their emotional manipulation is
unfair...she thinks it's just the way they try to take care of her.
(Never mind the fact that she is perfectly capable of taking care of
herself).

>Mehul "raja lakhan" Sanghvi    

 - Amirthi
-- 
The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: vak@infonode.ingr.com (Vansantha Kandasamy)
Subject: Re: Parental racism (was Re: Lighten up people!)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:17:57 GMT

In article <samaddar.711929694@dumbo> samaddar@siemens.com writes:
>mvij@novell.com (Manish Vij) writes:
>
>>Another reason is that my parents are very cautious and fear crime, and
>>they associate crime with minorities.  Of course, poor people do commit
>>crimes disproportionately more than the well-to-do, and many minorities
>>are disproportionately poor compared to white people, but it doesn't
>>justify applying a generic stereotype across all members of a race or
>>ethnicity.
>
>I don't know. In India and most third world countries, people are poor.
>Disparities between rich and poor is perhaps even greater than here. Still,
>poor people don't necessarily commit more crimes.
>
   One reason: Guns.

>Sumitro

   - Vasantha
From: raja@bombay.cps.msu.edu (Narayan S. Raja)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Indians in the Caribbean
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:14:32 GMT
Reply-To: raja@cps.msu.edu
Organization: Pattern Recognition & Image Processing, MSU


In article <bjag-270792121238@owl>, (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:

< Manish wrote:

< > Pardon my ignorance, but just what happened in Fiji?

< Fiji adopted a constitution that basically disenfranchises the Indian
< majority population,

They are not disenfranchised.  However,
they can have only a minority of seats
in the parliament (I think about 22 out
of 55 ?).


Narayan Sriranga Raja.
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:06:16 GMT

>In article <1992Jul21.140936.5716@iscsvax.uni.edu>,
>shangari9701@iscsvax.uni.edu wrote:
>> Who is not against the arranged wedding "bull shit"? Excuse me for
>> the profane language. I would like to get some response from anyone. Their
>> likes and dislikes about the ARRANGED WEDDING..  
>

It all depends on what kind of arranged marriages are you talking about.
It is no longer a single entity. While there are arranged marriages in 
which the groom/bride are given no choice, most of the arranged marriages
are done in consultation with everyone that matters. Everyone puts forward
what they think are the plus/minus points of a particular alliance and 
the final decision is left up to the two people for whom the marriage is 
being arranged. They can meet each other, talk over vital issues, much 
the same way as people do through advertisements that people put up in 
NewYorker or alt.personals. There seems to be only one taboo -- no sex before 
arranged marriages. I really don't see what's so "bull shit" about it?
Marriage is not all about sex only. It does allow for the consideration 
of all other factors (assuming that the persons in question are liberal 
enough to consider them all). 

Besides, what if you are unable to meet a spouse of your dreams. 
Remain unmarried for the rest of your life? Many do choose this 
option but one can always take a chance with someone slightly 
less than Mr./Ms. perfect. No research has been able to show that 
arranged marriages have been less successful than love marriages 
or vice versa. (As a reminder, 50% of the marriages in US end up 
in divorce with the kids bearing the brunt of it all). 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.



Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: bjag@nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh)
Subject: Re: Desi friends
Followup-To: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Organization: Northwestern University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:30:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.140936.5716@iscsvax.uni.edu>,
shangari9701@iscsvax.uni.edu wrote:
> Who is not against the arranged wedding "bull shit"? Excuse me for
> the profane language. I would like to get some response from anyone. Their
> likes and dislikes about the ARRANGED WEDDING..  

I'm not against arranged weddings if no one involved (the woman, man, and
the parents) all decided it was the best decision for them and there was no
coercion involved. What's wrong with someone deciding that they prefer the
arranged marriage scene to the single's dating scene?

If your parents don't force you to marry someone you don't want to, or make
you behave like someone you're not in order to hook the right guy, there's
nothing wrong with having family assistance in finding the person you
marry. 

I haven't had an arranged marriage (nor considered one). But why shouldn't
people be allowed to make their own decision about whether they want their
marriaged arranged? If culture, religion, and language are particularly
important to them, it might be hard to find someone who matches those
characteristics without some kind of assistance.

Needless to say I also think people should be allowed to find their own
mate, if they want to, and that by no means should parents force _their_
religion culture or language on their children's choice of a mate. But if
the child agrees, there's nothing wrong with arranged marriages. 

Bharathi Jagadeesh                 bjag@nwu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian