From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: More about India
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:51:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: coe.1992Oct7.165117.14598
Distribution: soc.culture.indian
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717

In article <1992Oct6.202941.19878@meaddata.com> udcrusd@meaddata.com (Sylvia D'Cruz) writes:

	It seems people have misunderstood the intent of my article. All I had
argued was the tone in which some people said India was absolutely unliveable
for women and US is the place to live. And as I had said in my conclusion I
ACCEPT that there is eaveteasing and harrassment to women in India and my 
argument was don't just say India is a lousy place in that aspect and glorify
USA and cite yet another hollow argument for sticking around in the USA.

	Now coming to your observations,

>In big cities, only a few stay away from eve teasing. For the majority, it is
>a game, that starts in secondary school itself. The whistling, the name calling
>and the mimicking of feminine gestures. These are some of the minor forms of it.And, guys generally feel MACHO, when they as part of a "guy" gang on street 
>corners, start their act on groups of females or women by themselves. And, how
>they laugh.... 

Yes there are street gangs(no guns though) which have a pleasure in doing such
things. I am from Madras and I think this problem is comparitively less in my
city and I think it is more common particularly in Bombay and Delhi.[banning
the song Oye Oye etc.]

>And, during holi these eve teasers are really elated, they can target certain 
>locations and score a hit with their water balloons and colors.  I think we 
>need a law that restricts such activity, to your friends and invitee's in your 
>backyard or playground. This is one instance, where traditional customs need 
>modification, to suit changing needs.

True. But I maintain the % of guys doing this is minimal.

>There are no statistics or they are kept to a minimum in India in regard to
>most social aspects. Can you quote any statistics of sexual harrasment taken
>in the last few years, in India ?  Just because there are no statistics, don't
>presume that everything is just great about India. 

There are statistics for India too and the number of harrasments are certainly 
more than what is on paper mainly because people don't complain. And my point
is there is very little done by the people to reduce this harrassment.

>India has a large labor 
>force that has a lot of women in it, too. They are paid 1/3rd the salary of
>their male counterparts for the same task, and they are taken advantage of -
>yes sexually, too. I know cases where the female maids in a household, are
>sexually abused by the boss. The press is not muzzled, to the extent it is
>in India. So, just because you don't hear of serial killers, incest, patricide
>sexual harrassment etc, does not mean it is not happening.

I never said it is not happening.

>Men over here, may glance their way, maybe smile and turn away. But, most of
>the men in India undress you with a hard stare and don't even think it is
>unpolite and ther gaze follows you till you are out of sight. And, yes, they 
>is no smile, just a gaping open mouth. 

I lived in the dorms and I have gone around with a lot of Americans and I have 
seen many of them stare at girls(no open mouth I should admit) and pass comments
like "look at those *****" "How I wish I *******" and things like that and long 
howls. I am just saying that Americans ALSO do such things and don't just say
they are saints.

>Yes! they stare at low necks, girls in
>skirts and shorts. Ahh! but then it is not as common a sight as it is over here
>Maybe that gives them a reason.........

The above argument applies here also.

>Sorry to disappoint you pal! I have worked in India, and here, too. I have more
>opportunity, here, atleast to reach middle managment, than I have in India. My
>personal life does not crop up in job interviews, Performance Analysis, etc. I
>have never felt like a sex object at work, or for that matter on the streets.
>No, I come to work, get my job done and go home. I have never been apprehensive
>I was more worried going to work in India, never knowing, when there would be a
>strike, and lack of transport to get home, the flooding in Bombay, a yearly
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>episode, and yes being caught alone in the first class ladies compartment, in
 ^^^^^^^
>a train. 

All the highlighted parts don't come in the scope of our discussion and may I 
ask you why you included those.

>Maybe it is a different lifestyle. But, in all honesty, I must say,
>I was scared coming home early in the mornings from the computer lab, here in 
>the US at school. But, atleast I had at my disposal campus security.

I don't know about Bombay but in Madras we have a police force that enforces
the law strictly in the nights and will surely come to a woman's rescue if 
there was a problem. And in our college campuses the number of rapes is a bare
minimum.

>Bars - I think that is mutual, some of the women, too, go over there to get
>picked up.

Accepted. I was trying to point out the way American men seem to casually say
I am going to the bar to pick up a girl.

>I wonder, how many of the men on this net thought, that eve teasing was wrong,
>and did something about it. Personally, I think the US is better, because, they
>are atleast aware of the problems confronting women in society, today, and are
>trying to improve their lot. I can't say the same for India. They are still,
>tackling issues like bride burning, widow shunning, female infanticide and 
>others. By the time they address issues like sexual harassment at work, equal
>pay etc., it  will be a century away. I can't wait that long.

Listen, I also have a sister[she is in India] who travels by bus daily to 
college and I am aware of the problems she is facing. Our country is still
backward in treating women though everyone has to admit that it has improved
a lot over the years. The educated lot, both men and women have to help in
fighting the imbalance in our society. But time and again I have seen that
the educated people are worse than the uneducated ones when it comes to equal
opportunity for women. Scores of Indian men who are here in the USA go back
and demand dowry in lakhs and the worst thing is they get it. I will critisize
the guy who asked for the dowry and the girl(mostly educated) equally who 
accepts to live with a man who asked money to marry her. 

I believe that mothers have to educate their daughters to fight the 
injustice and also educate their sons to treat the fairer sex equally. 
And I think women fail in their duty if they don't do so thus creating
another generation of male dominance.

Like I had written before there are a lot of people fighting in India to
correct the imbalance in the society. And here I see people complaining
all the time but who have never done anything when they were in India.


>The US has it's problems,and I am not trying to glorify it. I personally, think
>the US has more to offer me and my family than India can.
>Someone said "Ask not what the country can do for you, but what you can do for 
>the country".I considered that, got entangled in communal differences, red tape
>and bribes. I am free, now.........

So did you ever come up with an answer for "what you did for your country ?"

>Sylvia D. D'Cruz                                

Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar