From: gideon@farli.otago.ac.nz (Gideon King)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Assurance of salvation
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:57:19 GMT
Reply-To: gideon@farli.otago.ac.nz

I received a reply to my posting about assurance of salvation, but my  
reply bounced, so I'll post it here - I think others may find it of  
interest anyway...


> Gideon,
>     Your post was interesting on assurance of salvation, however I 
> wonder what Paul has to say about this....

> What do you think Paul means in 1 Cor 1:8, and what does 1 John 5:11-13
> mean?
> I'd like to hear your interpretation of these verses, mostly because I 
> find that if you say that you can lose your salvation, then you've 
> directly gone against these verses, which would heresy and an incorrect
> interpretation.  Also, by making yourself the only determiner of your
> salvation(which is what this position, that you can lose your salvation 
> does...correct me if I'm wrong on this), you have made yourself God, 
> which is essentially idoloatry.

> In any case, I'd like to hear what you have to say on these verses.

> C. R.



God does offer the gift of salvation to all that believe in His word, and  
follow His commandments, so it is not man totally determining his own  
salvation. If Jesus Christ had not been sacrificed for us, we would not  
have the mediator we now have with God, and the way of salvation would not  
be open to us as it now is. It is God who ultimately determines who will  
and won't be in His Kingdom. It seems to me to be presumptuous of people  
to declare that they are saved, when they are not even trying to fulfil  
God's commandments (as is the case with many people). What objective  
evidence is there that a "saved man" is really saved? He may say that he  
is, but it is God who will decide that at the judgement.

As to 1 John 5:11-13, there are several things I would like to say. I may  
make a few assumptions, as I don't know yor full position and other  
beliefs.

Most people who believe in the "once saved always saved" philosophy also  
believe in the immortality of the soul - a doctrine I can't support from a  
scriptural basis. If believers and non-believers alike have immortal  
souls, what is the eternal life that Jesus says he will give to believers?  
Anyway, that is a bit of a side-issue.

I know that John's writings can be a little confusing, but he does use the  
past tense for future events that are assured. Some examples of this are:
  1. "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand"  
(John 3:35), but the writer to the Hebrews explicitly says "But now we see  
not yet all things put under him" (Heb 2:8).
  2. "I have overcome the world" (John 16:33) - this is before Gethsemane.
  3. "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do" (John 17:4).  
Jesus had yet to die "for our sins according to the Scriptures." (1 Cor  
15:3).
  4. "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them..." (John  
17:22). But believers are not ultimately glorified until the return of  
Christ and the granting of immortality (Col 1:27, 2 Tim 2:10-12).
  5. "...that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me..." (John  
17:24). Jesus was not glorified until after his resurrection (Luke 24:26,  
1 Tim 3:16).
  6. See also Rom 4:17-21, Isaac was not born at the time of the promise;  
2 Tim 1:10, but people still die. Not until the end of the milleneum will  
death be abolished (1 Cor 15:24-28).

In a similar way, eternal life is spoken of as if it was a present  
posession, when it is still future - to be given at the last day. This can  
be proven in three ways:
  1. Eternal life is to be given at the "last day":
        a) "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all  
which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again  
at the last day" (John 6:39)
        b) "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which  
seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will  
raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40)
        c) "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life;  
and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54).

  2. Other passages show that eternal life is not a present posession of  
believers:
        a) "In hope of eternal life..." (Titus 1:2)
        b) "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs  
according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7 cf Rom 8:24)
        c) "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the  
righteous into life eternal (Matt 25:46 cf Dan 12:2). the context of this  
passage indicates that the righteous are first judged and then invited to  
enter into life eternal (Matt 25:31-46). This shows that the righteous do  
not have eternal life before entering into life eternal.

  3. Salvation is ultimately a future experience:
        a) "...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Rom  
13:11). If salvation was nearer than when they believed, then it was  
obviously not a present posession.
        b) "Are they not ministering spirits, sent forth to minister to  
them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb 1:14). An heir is not a present  
posessor.
        c) "For a helmet the hope of salvation" (1 Thess 5:8). One does  
not hope for what he already posesses.

1 Cor 1:8 is in the future - look at the context of the verse. I think it  
is quite clear.



Anyway, does that answer your questions? I hope you at least consider the  
passages I have pointed out, and read them in context to get the full  
picture.

Gideon.


--
========================================================================== 
=====
                                    |
Gideon King                         | Phone +64-3-479 8347
University of Otago                 | Fax   +64-3-479 8529
Department of Computer Science      | e-mail gideon@farli.otago.ac.nz
P.O. Box 56                         |
Dunedin                             | NeXT Mail preferred.
New Zealand                         |