HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bearcub@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (The Husky Cub)
Subject: Re: Hiding one's preferences (was Re: CHOOSING to be attracted to someone)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 20:34:50 GMT

In article <72270@apple.Apple.COM> stef@Apple.COM (Stef Jones) writes:
>avery@netcom.com (Avery Ray Colter) writes:
>
>>What happened in practice was
>>that other people made so many comments about the girls I had eyes for being
>>fat, and I started to become influenced by that. [...]
>>So I wound up exploding, and turned on the people who were being the
>>main pushers of this anti-fat "influence", and at the top of my lungs bellowed
>>in their faces, "I like fat girls, SO BITE ME!" 

How's this for a twist? I'm a 19 year old MALE college student....I am
gay and slowly coming out of the closet. The "stereotypical" type of person
that is gay is seen as young, muscular little studs. That is also seen as
most of the tastes in a gay society. I am EXACTLY the opposite. I, myself
being a large framed person(225 lbs) have tastes for men in my weight class
or bigger. Most of the friends that I have come out of the closet to have
seen this as "no big deal". It hasn't freaked them out to know that I like
"big men". I have no fears in telling people that I am out of the closet to,
that my tastes range towards "men with a gut". I am less embarrassed about
that then about being gay. (although, "embarrassed" isn't the best word...
more like "worried") Anyone I've told that I am gay has no strong reaction 
when I tell them that I like "fat" or "large" men. They almost seem relieved,
considering I have no straight friends who are in my range for tastes in men.

How 'bout that? 

Bearcub
"big men". >
-- 
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\bearcub@csd4.csd.uwm.edu/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
<  B1w+fkgc+ = Freddie Mercury and Big Bossman's Love Child :)           >
<  Y...M...C...A...it's fun to stay at the Y...M...C...A...hey!          >
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: ajmorrison@happy.colorado.edu
Subject: <None>
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 14 Sep 92 06:13:25 MDT


Well, I just thought I'd jump in here. Something that my current boyfriend says
that annoys the hell out of me... "Amy, I like you for who you are and not what
you look like... but have you ever looked into Weight Watchers?"  Well, he quit
mentioning it after I told him he could accept me the way I am or get the hell
out of my life. My two cents...

     Amy at CU-Colorado Springs (NOT Boulder!!!)
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: avery@netcom.com (Avery Ray Colter)
Subject: Re: CHOOSING to be attracted to someone
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 19:48:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa

joyce@apple.com (Joyce Wermont) writes:

>As Sheryl said, some people are more affected by societal brainwashing
>than others. But I agree that we're all affected to some degree. Perhaps
>society can never stamp out the spark of individuality completely (I
>like to think this is true), but it sure has a damn good influence. 

Of course, one thing I've heard about myself, which makes a lot of sense
for a change, is that I'm a "question authority" type by nature, and often
have to see for myself what these things are that are being "verboten" -
especially when that's where my instincts are tending to lead me anyway.
Thus, had the prejudice not been there, I likely would have been attracted
to the girls and women I've been attracted to, but their weight would not
have become such a tangible or political issue. What happened in practice was
that other people made so many comments about the girls I had eyes for being
fat, and I started to become influenced by that. Only, it became very obvious
to me that when I tried to force myself away from the fat girls, I had no
energy left to even try to bring myself toward the thin ones, and instead the
tension I built up trying to "fit in" eventually just couldn't be contained
anymore. So I wound up exploding, and turned on the people who were being the
main pushers of this anti-fat "influence", and at the top of my lungs bellowed
in their faces, "I like fat girls, SO BITE ME!" I like to say that society
didn't really change my basic instincts, what it affected was the expression
thereof. Only, their goal was to silence me, and what they wound up doing
instead was making for themselves a very vocal enemy.

>What I mean by "opportunities" is not more brainwashing, with yet
>another set of standards. Instead, I mean providing people with positive
>images and messages about fat people (or gay people, etc), so that
>we can have the thoughts and beliefs necessary to allow ourselves
>the *possibility* of feeling sexual toward them. Then, if the instinct
>is there, it will have the chance to be expressed.

Yes, this sounds more like what I was trying to say, that the instinct really
doesn't choose per se, rather the ego expressing this instinct hampers or 
helps the expression based on its perception of outside reaction.

I don't ever work on changing the way I feel - I always work on improving
the way I express those feelings. And if new feelings are allowed to come
to light in the process, those will find expression as well.


-- 
Avery Ray Colter ("Elfcat") - 	avery@netcom.netcom.com (IP 192.100.81.100)
(510) 656-1902          	{elfcat|arcolter}@aol.com
"Heaviness is the root of lightness; calmness is the controller of haste"
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: shannah@netcom.com (Teri Miller)
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 08:06:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Sep14.193329.21760@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad) writes:
>
>Really, all I wanted to do with my original posting was to point out another
>possibility for the original poster's boyfriend's nagging.  I certainly
>didn't mean to suggest that that MUST be his reason.
>
I apologize if you felt I was flaming you.  I didn't mean to do that.

I thought your response to me was very well-worded, and I agree that he
might well have thought that he was simply being helpful.  It is true
that the Weight Watchers ads make them seem like such an "easy way to   
lose weight" without any risk involved, and if someone has never dieted,
I can certainly see how they could look very attractive.

I think the issue that bothers me that is often overlooked though is
this: is it really reasonable for someone to suggest to someone else
that they lose weight?  

Before you answer, consider the following:

Would you want someone else, even an SO, to tell you how to spend money?
How would you feel if someone you knew insisted that you should start
    watching a sport on TV that you detested?
Would you like it if, after having made love with an SO, someone came up
    to you the next day and told you you were ruining your life with that sin?
If you loved dogs, would you like it if someone tried to take away your
    beloved dog and replace it with an animal you didn't like?
If you were very thin, and the only way you could gain weight was to eat
    and eat and eat until you were ready to vomit, would you appreciate
    it if someone came up to you and said "You can't possibly be healthy,
    being that thin.  Please let me buy you dinner for 6 at La Maison."

I believe that weight is just as private a thing as money, sex, or
religion.  While I might tolerate having someone very close to me 
tell me how to spend money, it would only be if that person had already
demonstrated their expertise.  I have a beloved friend who absolutely
has to have every new toy that comes out on the market - she is in debt
up to her earlobes for the next 5 years at least.  If she started moralizing
to me about how I shouldn't put my hotel bill on my Visa, I'd tell her to
stow it!

I feel the same way about perenially thin people telling people who are
overweight to go on a diet, or worse, what diet to go on.  Not only do
I not feel they have the expertise to make that judgement, I also feel
they are often giving advice where it is not wanted, on a private matter
that is really none of their business.

But then again, my husband and I have separate checking accounts...
1/2 8-)

Teri

Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: davis@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Barbara Davis)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:55:44 GMT

kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad) writes:

>I agree with you that it sounds like your boyfriend is acting like a jerk,
>but you might want to consider that just maybe he is concerned about some of
>the nasty physical problems that go along with being overweight and really
>not concerned about your physical appearance...

This is the major cop out that people use who offer advice on my weight under
the guise of caring about me.

The cold, hard truth is that attempts to lose weight are what ruined my
health, not the weight itself!  

If I had been left alone to feel beautiful and worthwhile as a child who
was 10 or 15 pounds overweight, I would not have ruined my metabolism
with yo yo diets and weight gains.  I would not have had surgery that left
me with a partially calcified kidney and hypoglycemia.  And I would still
be only 10 or 15 pounds overweight instead of 100 pounds overweight!

I will never diet again.  I am not physically up to the effects of another
diet!  Dieting was killing me!

Now when misguided friends comment on what I eat, I cheerfully inform them
that I have permission to eat anything I want to eat.  If they ask who gave
me persmission, I answer, "ME!".

Mostly I eat a healthy diet.  Even that is criticized when a fat person
eats that way.  Some people don't understand that I need the nutrients in
bread and potatoes just as much as I need what is in fruits and vegetables.
They also don't understand that I can't munch on most raw vegetables because
I have an ulcer. 

So, I just smile sweetly and state in a calm and assertive manner that I am
the best judge of what I should or should not be eating.  Most people
accept this, the opinions of the others don't matter to me. 

Barb
-- 
Barbara G. Davis                       Internet:  davis@ucsu.colorado.edu
University of Colorado, Boulder 

                   If I don't ask, you can't say, "Yes!".
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin--Madison
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:53:54 CDT

In article <1992Sep14.061325.1@happy.colorado.edu> ajmorrison@happy.colorado.edu writes:
>
>Well, I just thought I'd jump in here. Something that my current boyfriend says
>that annoys the hell out of me... "Amy, I like you for who you are and not what
>you look like... but have you ever looked into Weight Watchers?"  Well, he quit
>mentioning it after I told him he could accept me the way I am or get the hell
>out of my life. My two cents...

I agree with you that it sounds like your boyfriend is acting like a jerk,
but you might want to consider that just maybe he is concerned about some of
the nasty physical problems that go along with being overweight and really
not concerned about your physical appearance...


Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: diet talk?! here?!
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:52:55 GMT

Barbara Davis writes:
>>I will never diet again.  I am not physically up to the effects of another
>>diet!  Dieting was killing me!

Steve Dyer writes:
>I feel 1000% better now, some five months and 45 lbs. lighter, though
>I still have a ways to go.

Barbara: I, too, have sworn off dieting.  Steve: Congrats on
accomplishing something that makes you feel so much better.

But both of you, and others on this thread, I ask you, "Do we
have to talk about dieting *here*?"  I thought the reason behind
the split between alt.support.diet and alt.support.big-folks had
to do with the friction between fat-pride types, and those who
want to talk about diets all the time.  The word "diet" affects
me like a four-letter word: it makes me want to leave the scene.

							--Fiona
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: The limited relevance of diet
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:01:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.231723.17782@lgc.com> mcm@zycor.lgc.com () writes:
>I have a comment on Fiona's suggestion that we can diet
>talk for the most part. ...
>Her point that alt.support.big-folks is for "fat pride"
>or acceptance, self-esteem, and support qua fat, if you
>prefer, is a useful one...
>So anyhow, weight reduction issues, as well as exercise issues,
>seem to have a place in our discussion. They deserve some attention,

I'd agree.  I think it's artificial to try to ignore that this is a big deal
for many of us (and I mean that in all its facets, positive and negative).
At the same time, I think that it would be out of place to talk about
diets _qua diets_ ad nauseam here.  I didn't mean to encroach on that in
my comments.

Of course, we could always go back to the het male chubby chasers
thread. :-) :-)  (Where are all the gay men who like big men? :-))


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin--Madison
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:48:26 CDT

In article <fcznls+.shannah@netcom.com> shannah@netcom.com (Teri Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.193329.21760@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kolstad@cae.wisc.edu (Joel Kolstad) writes:
>>
[deleted]
>>
>I apologize if you felt I was flaming you.  I didn't mean to do that.

:-)  I'm happy now, I hope you're not upset with me.  (But... but... isn't
the net SUPPOSED to incite never ending flame wars!?  :-) )

>I think the issue that bothers me that is often overlooked though is
>this: is it really reasonable for someone to suggest to someone else
>that they lose weight?  

After reading your list, I agree with you... it generally wouldn't be
reasonable to suggest to someone else that they ought to lose weight.  We're
all supposed to be adults by now, and therefore don't need other people
to tell us what to do.  When it comes to spouses, boy/girl friends, etc. this
can be a little tricky, since that person tends to partially become an
extension of yourself.  

						---Joel Kolstad

Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: hoots 'n' whistles
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:44:44 GMT

Hi y'all--I'm just recently back from a long vacation in Hawaii,
where I continued my process of consciousness-raising on the
"fat is beautiful" front.  I discovered, to my surprise, that
a much larger percentage of men who live in Hawaii like fat
women.  I was wearing (like everyone else) a swimsuit and shorts
about 90% of the time I was out and about in public, and I
got ogled, hooted at, whistled at, and propositioned at a
frequency that was at first pleasant, then ultimately a bit of
a pain.  It helped me re-evaluate the way I've felt about the near
absence of hoots 'n' whistles, when I walk around in the DC area.
I actually prefer the silence.  It's nice to know those men
are out there, but I'd prefer it if they just smiled.

					--bemused,

						Fiona Webster
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
From: mcm@zycor.lgc.com ()
Subject: The limited relevance of diet
Originator: mcm@odessa.zycor.lgc.com
Organization: Landmark/Zycor  (Austin TX)
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:17:23 GMT

Hi big folks and friends:

I have a comment on Fiona's suggestion that we can diet
talk for the most part. 

Her point that alt.support.big-folks is for "fat pride"
or acceptance, self-esteem, and support qua fat, if you
prefer, is a useful one.

The diet angle rears its head, however, on a regular basis.
And as the diet question affects our self-esteem, it has a
place in this group. People do often proffer unsolicited diet
advice. "So what's the big deal. 1200 calories a day. I just
can't see what the big deal is." (quoting one of my friends--
who brought up the subject "because she cared." Yes, she
cared, alright: she cared how I looked to her.

The ambivalence toward dieting is part of the self-esteem issues
for some of us fat folks. It is for me. I want to like myself
the way I am, and I am very strong and healthy on the whole.
But like Steve D (HUBBA HUBBA!! GLAD your weight reduction
program is making you feel better--sounds like it's going great!),
I am experiencing some reduced mobility. I do not feel like moving
around very much, and well, I've got arthritis to contend with 
in young middle age when my body otherwise feels great. So I can't
honestly reconcile with all of the weight I now carry.

My orthopedic surgeon has been great. He suggested that the
emphasis be placed on converting fat to muscle. I asked him
how to slow down, and mitigate the osteoarthritis, and he suggests
weight lifting, swimming, and bicycling. That will demand less
of my joints and more of my muscles. So I gotta get with the
program. Anyhow, the doctor confided that he struggles with
weight, and having been overweight himself, thinks fat people
for the most part know how to carry their weight. 

So anyhow, weight reduction issues, as well as exercise issues,
seem to have a place in our discussion. They deserve some attention,
but our corportations and our culture certainly overemphasize and
exploit them. Nearly all diet and exercise club ads focus entirely
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 08:13:39 EDT
From: <WCE2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Who Is Doctor Greenbaum?
 <1992Sep11.160650.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>

A fiction?  I'm happy to entertain the hypothesis.  But can this be
demonstrated?  That is, does anyone know of a movie/pulp novel/magazine
source?  "I don't believe this" isn't the same as "this is fiction."

For example, take the story (published in a number of anti-Crowley sources)
that he and an associate tried to summon Pan once in Paris: allegedly
Crowley was driven temporarily insane and his helper died.  This is reported
often as factual, but it is actually derived from a narrative related by a
fictional character in Dennis Wheatley's TO THE DEVIL, A DAUGHTER (1953).
What's more, the character is subsequently found out as a liar.

If Dr. Hammond and his associates are independently getting Dr. Green
scenarios from patients in various parts of the country, it's possible that
they have been exposed to some pop culture fiction source.  (Similarly, kids in
Great Britain SRA cases report seeing a sinister black-robed figure called "The
Master"--probably an allusion to "Dr.  Who" episodes.)

Can anyone cast any light (or dark) on this matter?

Bill Ellis
FOAFtale News
From: markh@wimsey.bc.ca (Mark C. Henderson)
Subject: Re: Self?
Organization: Wimsey 
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:04:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.123045.6593@iscsvax.uni.edu> marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>It appears that even after a time of getting going with this newsgroup, there
>are still no satanists on it.  Just nasty atheists.  If you worship yourself
>(the opposite of the Christian denial of yourself), I would agree that it is
>"of the devil", but clearly not real satanism.
>
>Evan Marshall

Most of us have better things to do than explain our beliefs to 
a xian fanatic who will no doubt twist everything he reads so that 
it fits into his world view, anyway.

Mark
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: rhr9081@hertz.njit.edu (Ray Rich)
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Coming out of the closet
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:59:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Sep10.161852.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>A question in alt.pagan got me thinking recently because it is relevant to me
>in a way as well.
>
>How could I tell my parents that I am a Satanist?
>
>Suggestions on alt.pagan (for coming out as a pagan) included easing them into
>it gradually, by having them read books that deal with paganism in an indirect
>(preferably fictional) manner, and simply telling them in one fell swoop.
>
>I don't know of any fiction books that would help in the least. There are a
>couple of books that deal with the topic of Satanism in a respectable manner,
>and there is always LaVey, whom I don't agree with, but I don't think this
>would work well.
>
>Any suggestions on how I could handle a conversation dealing with my religion?
>Normally I don't care what people think, but I love my parents. They are
>atheists (at least one is, and I think the other too), so that's a small help.
>Can anyone think of relevant books?
>
>This isn't just a hypothetical question, and saying "just don't tell them"
>might not work. I will be moving back in with them next year, and I don't
>intend to hide ten boxes of books, most of which deal with magick, Satan, and
>the queerer parts of religion, nor do I intend to censor my dress.
>
>I don't expect an answer, since the members of this newsgroup tend to come out
>only to throw out invading xians, but if someone has any help it would be much
>appreciated.
>
>--Semhaza

	Well, it depends on the parents in question.  I suspected that my 
parents, influenced by the media like the rest of the public, tend to 
associate Satanism with dark, sinister things.  Thus, I explained my religious
viewpoints to them in detail without labelling myself a Satanist.  They simply
understand my views as anti-Christian.  I even got some insight into my
father's bad experiences with Catholicism and Protestantism (which he hadn't
told me previously in an effort to let me make up my own mind with regards to
religion).  They've seen the satanic bible and xian bible on my bookshelf
side by side.  They also know my friends and know I haven't joined a "cult" or
other nonsense.  In all, while they may not agree with me 100%, they understand
me, and that's all I wanted.

					Raymond H. Rich
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
From: j1moody@darwin.cc.nd.edu 
Subject: find lives revisited
Followup-To: alt.satanism
Organization: Your mother's womb
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 03:59:13 GMT


Well, after playing the devil's advocate and getting a few of you big bad
Satanists to tell why you really consider yourself as such, I have a few
insights.
You're not all the teenage punks playing with magic that I first
envisioned.
Actually, most of you sound more like followers of Ralph Waldo Emerson
than Satan, with all this talk about being self-determined and free willed.

Yet, if you are so free willed, why would you put yourself in the bondage
of your every sensual pleasure (one of the doctrines of Satanism).
And why would you label yourselves Satanists? Is it that you are so 
caught up with an irrational hatred of religion as it was handed down to
you that to be free means to spite what you claim restricted you?
From: andy@satan.ucsd.edu ({Vigor Mortis})
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Self?
Date: 10 Sep 1992 16:01:09 -0700
Organization: UCSD Network Operations
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: satan.ucsd.edu



In article <1992Sep10.135619.6647@iscsvax.uni.edu>, marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu 
writes:
|> 
|> All who are not for Christ are antichrist.  (I could find where that is written
|> if anyone wants to know.)
|> 

I doubt that it actually matters whether you can produce the source for 
this tripe. By this logic, if you don't love me, you hate me. It's just that old
Aristotelian logic misapplied. I prefer a world that doesn't exclude the middle,
thank you.


	Andrew Ferrell
	UCSD Network Operations
	UCSD 0124, La Jolla, CA 92093-0124
	andy@ucsd.edu ucsd!andy ANDY@UCSD.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.satanism