HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.abortion,dc.general
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:01:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi._v5td1b

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:


>Estimating the size of the crowd from the ground was easier than 
>for a lot of demonstrations. The stationary crowd was seated on
>the Mall in a rectangular area. I looked at the densest clusters
>of people and it looked like 10 people per 100 square feet, and
>that's being generous.  Then I estimated the ratio of open grass
>to seated people in the various sectors of the Mall. Where
>people were standing, I called that 20 people per 100 square
>feet. I divided the crowd up into sectors of various density and
>got the areas from a map. 

Well, I know that between 12pm and 1pm from the stage to the road in the ellipse
 was completely full. Instead of 10 people per 100 feet there were more like 25.
People were touching. It was a solid mass.

 I find it truly bizarre that you think you can get a more accurate count than
NOW or the Park Service who have signatures of people there and who monitored 
the whole area from the air.

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.  "D.C. IN 93!"
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
"You know, you should really change your position on abortion."
                                 --Katharine Hepburn to George Bush, Nov 1990
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
From: piiro01@convex.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Dave Rodriguez)
Subject: Re: Arafat's Plane Missing in Libyan Desert
Organization: Comp. Center (ZDV) U of Tuebingen, FRG
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 10:25:09 GMT


>jsast@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Jonathan S. Anderson) writes:

>The real interesting question here is the rumor I've heard saying that
>the US gave satellite photos to Libya in order to help find the plane.  It
>seems very unlikely to me given the current state of relations, but one never
>knows.  Anybody know the truth?
 
>-Jon Anderson
    
   From what I've seen it seems that the only contact was between the US and
the PLO, Libya seems not to have been directly involved.
 
   According to an Associated Press report the PLO requested that former
president Carter intercede with the White House to urge US assistance in
locating Arafat's plane.

   The downed aircraft was in fact located before the US had sufficient 
time to decide on a course of action. An unnamed US official is quoted as
saying "we were in the process of evaluating a request to see what we
could do when Arafat was located". In an interview with NBC-TV PLO spokesman 
Bassam Abu Sharif said that he had contacted Carter "and asked him to use
his good offices with the White House to use American satellites to spot
the plane of chairman Arafat".

   In fact, the plane could have been located by either of two search-and-
rescue instruments mounted on weather satellites upon emission of a distress
call without the necessity of US government intervention. 
  
                         
                               David Rodriguez
 
                            also CERLPDR@TECHNION 

From: hypes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Gary Hypes)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 20:34:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: misc.headlines

I have no personal feeling for the crowd size, larger or smaller;
however, I would certainly like to see "official" estimates from some
organization with considerable less self-interest than NOW. 

I think the best - maybe the only - way of counting heads is to grid out
some photographs and count sample sizes the way you count yeast
populations under a microscope. (1) People are notoriously bad-guessers
of crowd sizes. Film directors frequently position 8 or 10 people around
a scene and create the illusion there's a huge crowd standing around.
(2) Psychologically, it's impossible to be part of a genuinely large
crowd and not feel overwhelmed by the experience, leading to gross
over-estimations. (3) In general, people don't have the kinds of life-
experiences that give them practice at accurately estimating huge
crowds; even police officers with official duties at such events may
only experience two or three such events in their lifetime, and EVEN
then can usually only measure in comparative terms ("bigger, smaller,
about the same..."). The only common experience like that is going to
football or baseball games, but even then the attendee has the advantage
of guessing the attendance against a "known" number of seats in a
confined area.

In general, though, I admit the numbers - whatever the final count -
were impressive. I don't recall seeing anything like that since the
Nuremberg rallies back in the 30's.

- Gary Hypes -
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3332 soc.misc:478 talk.politics.mideast:10642 talk.politics.misc:17889
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Deportations of Palestinians from the occupied territories
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<JIME.92Apr14123220@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr14.190527.23560@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,<1992Apr14.235044.3175@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
	<1992Apr15.021458.361@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:11:33

In article <1992Apr15.021458.361@midway.uchicago.edu> gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
>   I would just like to say, for the record, that I personally am opposed to
>   any such 'transfer' of Palestinians from the territories.  Mr. Makowsky
>   represents a small minority of Israelis, and an even smaller minority
>   of Jewish supporters of Israel.  
>
>   Most Jewish supporters of Israel, and most Israelis are opposed to any
>   such 'transfer', and Mr. Makosky does not speak for them.  The vast majority
>   believe that Palestinians have a right to live there.  
>
>   The question of deporting INDIVIDUAL Palestinians, as a punishment for violent
>   actions against Israel, is another question entirely.

But even the deportation of individual Palestinians is against the Geneva
Convention.  The world community does not in general support this
action by Israel, and considers it contrary to international law.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3219 talk.politics.mideast:10397
From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arafat's Plane Missing in Libyan Desert
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:41:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Apr8.034156.6181
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics

In article <1992Apr8.001202.6862@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Fresh from CNN - the plane carrying PLO leader Yaser Arafat is missing
>in the Libyan desert. It is not known if it crashed or not, but there
>was no radio contact with it for 8 hours.
>
>-Danny Keren.

I have heard the same report on ABC news and local radio circa 9:00 pm
Central Standard Time.  None of the reports had any more details, except
that the plane was coming from Sudan.  (or maybe going to Sudan).

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3402 soc.culture.europe:3758 soc.culture.french:3083
From: mfm0@ellis.uchicago.edu (martin frederic melhus)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 11 Apr 92 06:46:33 GMT
Reply-To: mfm0@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <JIME.92Apr10103806@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>Israel did _not_ acquire its land in the same way that that America
>acquired its land.  (stuff deleted.)

>This is not at all similar to the US, where the initial revolution was
>fought as a war, not as a terrorist action,....

>=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Actually, if my understanding of the American revolution is correct,
the above statement is not very accurate.  The American revolutionaries
(herein referred to as ARs) did not have the manpower to wage conventional
war as defined in their day and age.  So they resorted to hit and run
tactics, small sniper teams, and definately used force against civilians
that they thought were collaberating with the British.  While these are
mostly accepted military practices now, they were not at the time.
Therefore, one could argue that the ARs practiced a limited form of
non-standard warfare, which people of the time could have called terrorism.

Also, remember that terrorism is nothing new.  It has been around for
thousands of years.  It is just that with bombs and timers, and a mass
media that can get reasonably accurate word of events to the majority
of the world in very little time, terrorism has become a much more
powerful tool for manipulating the population.  Unfortunately, there is
no technological solution as of yet.
-- 
                          | You have all the time from when you remove the |
     Martin F. Melhus     | card(s) from your hand until you put it (them) |
 mfm0@midway.uchicago.edu | on the pile to say "Last Card".  If you don't, |
                          | take your two. - Hidden texts, Book of MauMau. |
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3467 soc.misc:592 talk.politics.mideast:10972 talk.politics.misc:18527
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:23:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Apr16.232347.13363
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <JIME.92Apr15124737@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
|In article <1992Apr15.140120.8193@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
|>   In article <1992Apr13.203813.19355@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
|>   # Aha!  Now we begin to get the idea.  If an act of resistance (such as
|>   # blowing up a hotel serving as British headquarters and killing innocent
|>   # Arabs, Jews and British) is committed by Zionists, it is NOT terrorism.
|>   # If a similar act, of course, was committed by Palestinians (note,
|>   # Makowsky, no cute ?) then it would be a heinous terrorist act.

|>	   Not at all.  I suggest you do two things.  Go read about what
|>   actually happened at the King David hotel (and why it had to happen),
|>   and shut up when you do not know what you are talking about.

|I _have_ read about what actually happened at the King David Hotel.
|It had all the hallmarks of a well-planned terrorist attack, including
|the proverbial warning phone call (which was ignored by the British),
|and timing with another terrorist attack elsewhere.

Which other terorist attacks have been preceded by phone calls telling
when and where they would take place?  Am I missing a serious chunck
of history?

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
From: hypes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Gary Hypes)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:51:56 GMT
Subject: Re: THE MEDIA AND JERRY BROWN
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: misc.headlines

(1) Yes, Jerry Brown is a demagogue and a hypocrite, by which I mean to
say he is a politician. However, he is also an opportunist and an idiot,
and I oppose his candidacy for those reasons. 

(2) Jerry's positioning himself as being against the institution, as
being a political outsider, is patent hogwash. He comes from a family,
for heaven's sake, that has been a mainstay of American politics for 30
years. Furthermore, Jerry has squarely aligned himself with causes
(e.g., labor unions) that have been fundamental liberal platforms since
WWII. This is supposed to be breakthrough political thinking?

(3) JB is a hate-monger who feeds on every minority's feelings of
displacement and anger. His solution to the problems of the world is
allegedly to just get rid of the people now in power. What Jerry doesn't
tell people is, "Hey, I was in power in California, and I didn't do a
damn thing for the state."

(4) Ross Perot is enjoying the same honeymoon with the press that JB
enjoyed a the start of HIS campaign, when nobody took him seriously,
either. Once Perot becomes a serious candidate, there will be
(hopefully) a far more critical examination of his ideas.

(5) Jerry's campaign is beginning to sound like a Jehovah's Witness
(sorry, no religious flaming intended) tautology: the more people slam
doors in your face, the more convinced you are that you must be right
(ignoring the fact that people are slamming doors on you because they
find your message silly or you personally obnoxious or both).

(6) A political campaign is a process by which you demonstrate how well
you can organize, fund, and direct a team of people to help you project
your ideas and your viability as a candidate. There is nothing in the
contract that says the playing field is going to be "fair"; when the
chief executive deals with Congress or with international leaders, he
has no recourse to complain about how the press is giving more coverage
to another leader, or about how another world leader is attacking him in
the press. And he can't pander to the people of other countries by
telling them the solution to their problems is to throw out their
leaders. I *do* think it's a credit to Brown that he has managed to
carry his campaign this far, against very stiff odds. But the constant
whining is beginning to wear thin.

- Gary Hypes -
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3442 soc.misc:575 talk.politics.mideast:10896 talk.politics.misc:18389
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deportations of Palestinians from the occupied territories
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:07:13 GMT
	<1992Apr15.021458.361@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr15121133@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr15.180131.23019@cs.ucla.edu>
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1992Apr15.180131.23019@cs.ucla.edu> jon@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>   >But even the deportation of individual Palestinians is against the Geneva
>   >Convention.  The world community does not in general support this
>   >action by Israel, and considers it contrary to international law.
>
>   True enough, but let's remember that Israel is not in the habit of deporting
>   individuals as "punishment" for "violent actions".  The 12 Palestinians 
>   recently facing (or suffering?) deportation were all already imprisoned,
>   11 of them as political prisoners.  Deportation is an administrative, not
>   legal proceeding.  Deportation is simply a weapon in the fight to supress
>   Palestine.

Thus the deportations are ordered without a trial, and that the
Palestinians being deported may not have committed any crime at all.

--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr12.071510.2846@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<1992Apr13.203813.19355@techbook.com>
	<1992Apr15.140120.8193@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:47:37

In article <1992Apr15.140120.8193@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <1992Apr13.203813.19355@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
>   # Aha!  Now we begin to get the idea.  If an act of resistance (such as
>   # blowing up a hotel serving as British headquarters and killing innocent
>   # Arabs, Jews and British) is committed by Zionists, it is NOT terrorism.
>   # If a similar act, of course, was committed by Palestinians (note,
>   # Makowsky, no cute ?) then it would be a heinous terrorist act.
>
>	   Not at all.  I suggest you do two things.  Go read about what
>   actually happened at the King David hotel (and why it had to happen),
>   and shut up when you do not know what you are talking about.

I _have_ read about what actually happened at the King David Hotel.
It had all the hallmarks of a well-planned terrorist attack, including
the proverbial warning phone call (which was ignored by the British),
and timing with another terrorist attack elsewhere.

>   # This is a very good question.  Turn it around, Makowsky, how would you
>   # feel if you were a Palestinian Arab in Jaffa in 1947.  The United
>   # Nations tells you that your home is actually in the Jewish state. How
>   # would you like it?
>
>	   Well, they did not do this.  At any rate, claiming the home was in
>   a certain state is not the same as taking possesion of the home.

As I have posted earlier, Jaffa was in the Arab partition.  You are
also strictly correct in saying that just because some Arab homes were
in the Jewish partition (or in the territory taken over since the
partition) does not mean that these homes were wrested away from their
rightful owners.  Unfortunately, however, that is just what happened
in Jaffa and in uncounted other towns and villages.  The Arabs were
expelled on high authority (including Ben Gurion himself), and their
homes and lands were expropriated.  Often whole villages were
dynamited or bulldozed.

>   # Just out of
>   # curiosity, what are the real borders of Greater Israel?
>
>	   First of all I laugh when people use the term "Greater Israel".  I
>   do not know what you are talking about.  Apparently "Greater Israel"
>   is supposed to be a translation of "Eretz Yisrael".  It does not even
>   come close.

Ok, just out of curiosity, what are the real borders of Eretz Yisrael?
Do you support the expansion of the state of Israel to those of Eretz
Yisrael?  How do you propose that such expansion be accomplished?
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: jime@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr15.145219.18739@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr15125928@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr16.021518.14077@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:24:16

In article <1992Apr16.021518.14077@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <JIME.92Apr15125928@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   # In article <1992Apr15.145219.18739@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   # >   In article <JIME.92Apr14230116@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   # >   # The way the occupation is being run (deportation of elements of the
>   # >   # local populace, construction of permanent settlements, ...) also goes
>   # >   # against the Geneva Convention.
>
>   # >	   No they do not.
>
>   # Please explain.  A simple denial doesn't hold much weight.
>
>	   The Geneva conventions do not prohibit deportations of individuals
>   for security reasons.  They prohibit deportations of mass groups of
>   people.  While the wording may seem to ban deportations of
>   individuals, the subsequent official interpretaions and documents
>   state otherwise.  William Safire had an article on this a while ago.

If you will give me a more precise reference, I will read this article.

In any case, you addressed only the deportation orders, not the
settlement construction policy.

>	   Now I admit that "my" transfer idea would violate they Geneva
>   conventions, but there is ample precedent this century that allows
>   such violations if they save lives.  By allow I mean that the world
>   community accepted them, not that there was an international court
>   ruling (although there may have been, I am just not aware of any).

So essentially your point is one of blackmail.  Either the world will
approve the mass deportation of Palestinians, or the Israelis will
kill them all.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (manu)
Subject: Re: Arafat's Plane Missing in Libyan Desert
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 00:55:09 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.001202.6862@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Fresh from CNN - the plane carrying PLO leader Yaser Arafat is missing
>in the Libyan desert. It is not known if it crashed or not, but there
>was no radio contact with it for 8 hours.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
Let me guess.  Israel did it right???

							-Manu
-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
Do unto others before they do unto you.
"The future of the Arabs of Palestine was sacrificed to Egyptian politics"
						-Sir John Bagot Glubb
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Jordanian behaviour in Jerusalem (was Re: Want facts?...)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:18:11 GMT

In <JIME.92Apr15122007@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

>In article <dfs.703344175@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>   In <JIME.92Apr14171250@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
>>   jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>>
>>   >Next, perhaps someone should post some comments on the religious
>>   >restrictions placed on Jews in East Jerusalem during the Jordanian
>>   >tenure.  I would find this an interesting topic.
>>
>>   Well, Jim, I'm sure you would.
>>
>>   In 1948, the Jordanians kicked every last Jew out of East Jerusalem and
>>   the Old City.  They blew up the four major synagogues in the Old City.
>>   They used gravestones from the Mount of Olives as paving stones.  And they
>>   forbade any Jew from returning to the Old City.  Finally, they imposed the
>>   death penalty on any Arab who sold land in Judea/Samaria/WB to a Jew.
>>
>>   Does that answer your question?

>Well, it is certainly a start.  I shall have to augment this with more
>reading.  I presume that these atrocities continued until the 1967
>war, whereupon full religious freedom for all religions was reinstated.

That's correct.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,soc.misc,alt.activism