HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lore@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Lore Christian Sjoberg)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: 28 Jan 1993 05:40:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In <1993Jan27.211614.22135@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

>dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal) writes:
>>A GM can unbalance *any* set of points values within his or her campaign 
>>by choosing a sufficiently unbalanced set of problems to throw at the 
>>players. There are two solutions to this: IMHO the more enjoyable one is 
>>simply for the GM to produce a more varied campaign, in which a wider range
>>of stats and skills can be useful. The other is for the GM to say to the
>>players "Look, I'm running a very combat-oriented campaign. Since this makes
>>DX more useful than normal, I'm making DX more expensive than the normal
>>rules say."

>	This is one of the troublesome things about point systems, which 
>is what everyone complains about - that it must be based on a pre-conceived 
>mix of problems which the PC's are expected to face. IMO, there is nothing 
>wrong with a campaign without combats, or with a campaign which is heavily 
>focussed on combat. 

Clarification...are you saying that this is the troublesome thing about
point systems vs. random-generation systems, or just a problem with point
systems in general? In my experience, EVERY system assumes certain things
about the campaign.


-- 
Lore Christian          +     rec.arts.comics    + "Well, red means       
     Fitzgerald Sj|berg = Rarely Asked Questions = 'caution.' Or 'beef' if
  lore@ucscb.ucsc.edu   + #3 -- "So, who's this  + it's a bullion cube..."
  lore@cats.ucsc.edu    = Superman guy, anyway?" =  --Alastatia, "Toys"   
 

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: adray@mcs.kent.edu (Adam Dray)
Subject: Re: Random Rolls
Reply-To: adray@mcs.kent.edu
Organization: Kent State University CS
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:50:38 GMT

In article <1jpbq2INN6k4@titan.ucs.umass.edu>, 
   dunkelza@titan.ucs.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
> 
>   You wanna bet?  About half of the people who responded to my survey
> wanted some element of randomness in character creation.  Much more fun?
> Maybe for people who can't deal with weird characters...

I ran into a similar problem.  Running a modified CP2020 rules set, I allowed
players to create characters with 70 points for stats (plus their special
ability -- combat sense, interface, etc. -- had to come out of there.
That's an average of 7 points per stat, nothing to complain about.

But the *majority* of the players complained, since they thought they had a
decent chance of beating the odds if they rolled the dice.  With 10 d10 rolls,
there's a chance of getting 100 points total, but the odds are really against
it.  

It's amazing how many players truly believe they can beat the odds -- that they
have some kind of luck streak.  

The players that ended up using a modified rolling system (2d6, reroll totals >
10, ten times) got about 60 points on average.  One player managed to get 71,
"beating the odds" ... if one point counts for anything.


>   You must not be as good of a game designer as you thought, huh?

Now I don't think sarcasm is necessary.  Fun maybe, but hardly warranted.

						Adam.


-- 
adray@mcs.kent.edu            The word is my oyster,
                              and meaning is
                              a tiny grain of sand.

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Random Rolls
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:15:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.223716.23534@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>	Point systems have *created* the patently ridiculous idea that 
>beginning PC's must be equally effective, or that a simply numerical 
>formula can determine the effectiveness of a character. A point system 
>is never going to be more than a rough estimate of the effectiveness of 
>a character

I disagree.  The desire for equally effective beginning PC's is the result
of (IMHO) D&D's powergaming tendencies.  Nobody wants to start off at a
disadvantage because a) they won't be able to surpass the others to become
SuperMunchkin or b) they won't be able to survive when someone else in the
groups becomes SuperMunchkin.

Point systems are just more granular about it.  Most D&D games are run on
the idea of same-level PCs, ditto Paranoia (although this is less of an
issue), RQ, Hero games, etc..

-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jamtgaar@CS.ColoState.EDU (arne jamtgaard)
Subject: Re: Random Rolls
Summary: Poverty in a point-based world...
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:53:13 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

Yea, that's sort of the way life works for my struggling shaman (in a 
great GURPS Shadowrun game).  Every time he gets that money for a great 
run, there are bills to be paid, old loans to be settled, etc...  It 
worked for me, and made a lot of sense to the rest of the players, the 
GM, and the game world.

Arne (aka Stalker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Burn, Champs, BURN!
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:48:50 GMT

In article <1k6suuINNlja@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>If Sea Wasp hates GURPS because it can't do his brand of superheroes, then he
>must hate Champions because it can't do low-powered realistic games, and he 
>must hate TORG because it can't cope with non-cinematic gaming, etc etc etc.

Tangent time.

It was mentioned in passing that GURPS has no 'color', that all its mechanics
are too similar.

This is the main 'feel' flaw with Champions, and possible with Hero games
in general.

Champions had every attack reduced to a set of specs (Killing, NND, etc)
A fireball from a wizardly superhero was treated EXACTLY the same as a
plasma blast from Nuclear Man...6d6 Killing, NND, etc....


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert)
Subject: Re: Random Rolls
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:07:17 GMT

In article <1jpbq2INN6k4@titan.ucs.umass.edu> dunkelza@titan.ucs.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.220026.12671@news.vanderbilt.edu> talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert) writes:
>
>  You wanna bet?  About half of the people who responded to my survey
>wanted some element of randomness in character creation.  Much more fun?
>Maybe for people who can't deal with weird characters...

You made a survey? By all means, post it! 

>  I never said that power gaming was the way to go, but in real life, 
>people often do get something for nothing.

Which is why you start out with extra points. See previous post. 

>>One parting comment before I drop this thread:
>>   A few years ago I sat down to write the perfect game system. I figured 
>>that my mathematical training and experience as a gamer qualified me to 
>>come up with something new and fun. So for a year or so, I came up with 
>>various statstical models, systems, and ideas: probability-based values 
>>should adhere to the normal distribution (like everything else in real life
>>that has different levels of success), the game should be ready to accept 
>>any genre of input, combat should work like this, skills should work like 
>>this, etc. 
>>   The end product (what there was of it anyway) was so much like GURPS I 
>>just gave up and bought the damned thing. Y'all can flame away, but I am 
>>convinced. 
>
>  You must not be as good of a game designer as you thought, huh?

Well, I decided to keep my day job, at least... =)
   Now, if I had come up with something like Shadowrun, I'd have been *real*
concerned. 

-- Robert

--
Robert N. Talbert    		  | "I saw what cannot be seen
Mathematics Department  	  |  She spoke to me
Vanderbilt University		  |  'Take what you've learned, set it free
talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu |   See what you'll see.' " --- King's X
From: bell@cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:14:48 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
NNTP-Posting-Host: beethoven.cs.unc.edu

In article <2266@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>	The much touted "balance" of GURPS is one of its major flaws.
>Even in the books and movies that draw us into these games, the main
>characters weren't all built on the same scale. Some people are lucky
>and have it all. Others just have some things they do DAMN well.

So if you don't want balance, nobody's forcing you to use the point
system to generate characters.  Are you saying random systems are
wonderful because they simulate this variance between people?  (Or
would, except you say any good GM would just let you keep rolling
until you get something that isn't completely a scrub anyway, for
anyone who doesn't want to play the scrub?)

Well just think, GURPS forced you to play the scrub because you
couldn't create your commando as powerful as you wanted.  Why doesn't
this make you happy?

Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu



Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:36:22 GMT

dunkelza@titan.ucs.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:

>  Ahah, since GURPS is designed to work equally well with any genre, and
>it sucks at superheroic stuff, it stands to reason that it sucks period.

Ouch. Well, GURPS does work well for some genres. On others, it falls flat
on its face. HERO comes a little closer, but there are still genres that just
don't work in either system (GURPS Cyberpunk..Yuck, pooie..CyberHero...Gag,
barf). No game designed to be universal can ever work as well as one designed
*well* for that specific genre. 

Axly

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: SRII: Shotguns
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:51:45 GMT


Well, my detective friend just corrected me on the death dealing
capability of shotguns in SRII. Using shot rounds against an unarmored
person, you do a 10D wound. Okay, so an unskilled person can kill someone
with a shotgun. Happy now?

Axly

********************************************************************************
*  Axly       *   "Just because its my gun doesn't mean I'm the one who fired  **             *    it."                                                        *
* Red Sword   *   "OK, I fired it, but I didn't think I'd hit any civilians."  *
*  Targa      *   "Well, yes, it did occur to me that I might hit one or two   *
*             *    civilians. But I really never thought I would hit all of    *
*             *    them. "                                                     *
*             *      - Axly                                                    *
********************************************************************************
 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:45:11 GMT

>Well, he better not run any of the modules, or use all that -lovely- hardware
>listed in books, 90% of which is there to make one a better killing machine.

Well, if you run modules unaltered as your primary source of campaign
material, you are an unimaginative dolt. Of course FASA pumps out
"Kill 'em all!!!" modules. Why? They sell like hotcakes. Most campaign
material appeals to the lowest common denominator. 

>Look, one can do very interesting campaigns set in -any- universe, if one is
>willing to work at it. This is a net.axiom. But, IMHO, the ShadowRun universe
>is derivative, phony-feeling, and lacking in depth, with almost everything
>designed around the bloody 'Shadowrun' player coercion method. 

Well, at least there is a universe. You may not like it, but there is one
there. Heck, the really valuable thing to us is that items have names.
Ares Predator II vs. Colt Manhunter debates between samurai are things
that would happen..of course in a GURPS world where all weapons are 
generic GUN in black and white, there is none of that. FASA gives you 
a universe you can start with, and I think that's very important for
a GM. You can put your own personal touch on their universe. Creating
your own universe from whole cloth..*laugh* I go to school, I don't 
have that kind of time. 
GURPS products have always suffered from this. You may not like the flavor
of FASA or ADD universe, but at least there is one. GURPS supplements all
feel so devoid of any life to me. 

********************************************************************************
*  Axly       *   "Just because its my gun doesn't mean I'm the one who fired  **             *    it."                                                        *
* Red Sword   *   "OK, I fired it, but I didn't think I'd hit any civilians."  *
*  Targa      *   "Well, yes, it did occur to me that I might hit one or two   *
*             *    civilians. But I really never thought I would hit all of    *
*             *    them. "                                                     *
*             *      - Axly                                                    *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mr55371@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (KittyKat)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:55:16 GMT

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:

>In article <C1FMwL.FxA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
><rolls eyes> GURPS CP -has no gaming feel-. YOU, the GM, decide everything
>that goes into your GURPS CP campaign. It doesn't try to convey a damnable
>thing; that's the GM's job. This is the way the #$@! system works in GURPS.

Huh?  So, in other words, GURPS just provides the stats, you, as a GM, 
have to provide everything else?  To be honest, I think that can be pretty
damn daunting to a lot of people.  Personally, I'd rather modify an 
existing world than create a whole new one...I just plain don't have the
time to build a world comprehensive enough that my players will get the
'feel' of it.

>SR, on the other hand, has a built-in attitude, a built-in 'feel'. Every one
>of the adventures links in with the SR world in some way, and works off of 
>this selfsame theme. 

I think that's his point.  Some people really enjoy the fact that SRun has
a 'feel' to it.  I think that's probably one of it's more desirable points.
As far as the adventures go, I really do not understand why arguments keep
coming back to those...you don't have to use the FASA adventures.  On the
other hand, if you do want to use a module, the SRun ones seem to fit into
the game world rather well.  (This is just from reading through them...I 
haven't played any of them.)

>In a system where cyberware costs money, and one has an upper limit, one can't
>create quite a lot of interesting character types. Full-convertion 'borgs, 
>something one finds in quite a bit of CP, are impossible under SR and just 
>barely possible under CP2020. People with lots of 'ware but who are terminally
>broke and under-equipped (Molly comes to mind) are difficult to make; one has
>to have cyberware be ridiculously cheap for beginning characters to have any.

I think every system has those rules that tend to rub people the wrong
way.  My suggestion is to either cut them out entirely, or to customize
them with house rules.  I know this isn't the perfect solution, but then,
nobody has come out with the perfect system.  I agree that SRun isn't 
dealable for creating cyborgs, etc, but then according to the game world,
they don't exist.  The thing about the limitations in the system are that
they do seem to fit the world that FASA has created.  

Seems to me the latter really isn't a problem.  If someone wants to buy
cyberware with the disadvantage of it being on the fritz sometimes or in
need of fine tuning or other repair, it's pretty easy for the GM to either
sell it to them at the second hand price or set the price him/herself.
Coming up with characters with limitations just takes some communication
between the GM and the player.

KittyKat

Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:3781 rec.games.frp.misc:11449
From: seawasp+@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Faerie Folk (more pedantry that has nothing to do with gamin
Date: 21 Jan 93 19:59:18 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.misc
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1993Jan21.095808.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>In article <2223@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>[long, inane flame about GURPS deleted]
>take it .advocacy, you shlump!

	I DID, Loren! If you'd seen it, it WAS going to advocacy.

	Of course, it was ALSO going to .misc, but that's okay, I voted
against all the splits, I don't care, AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....

	*wham* (sound of door breaking down as net.police drag him
away)
			Sea Wa   s        p        

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:43:46 GMT

CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L000) writes:
>If you adopt a realistic outlook on the effects of super stuff on 
>real-life, then a realistic game can hack it. Comics belong there: 
>in the comics. Not too much fun to game, IMNSHO.

	Oh, excuse me, Doctor Kromm. I must have only *thought* I was 
having fun, along with my friends. Clearly I must have been mistaken. 

	Jeez - get a clue. I've played 'realistic people with paranormal 
powers' campaigns, and I've also played 'comic book' games. *You* might 
not like comic book-ish games; that's fine. But I think it is fairly 
clear that many other people do, in fact, enjoy them. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jgl2p@landau5.phys.Virginia.EDU (Joseph G. Louderback)
Subject: Re: Re: RPGs and Suicide
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Reply-To: jgl2p@landau5.phys.Virginia.EDU (Joseph G. Louderback)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:01:17 GMT

In article <1jnb1rINN87@titan.ucs.umass.edu>,
dunkelza@titan.ucs.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
|> In article <35546@sales.GBA.NYU.EDU> drcheng@sales.GBA.NYU.EDU (David
R Cheng) writes:
|> >In article <elliott.53@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com>
elliott@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com (Elliott Kleinrock) writes:
|> >
|> >You cannot conclude causality from correlations.

True.

|> >To get real ~proof~, you must examine statistically 
|> >significant samples over a period of time.  

Well, you also need to check for other variables.  To use a childishly
obvious example: ice cream consupmtion and deaths from drowning show a
statistical correlation.  However, there is a third factor; both
increase
in the summer.  It isn't the ice cream causing the drownings, but
rather
the increased number of swimmers.  If you can demonstrate that aside
from
gaming, your sample population is identical to the at-large population,
this study could be valid.

Not a flame, just an observation.

Joe Louderback
virtue is its own punishment  <== anyone have the source for this
quotation
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: eternal gurps flamewar
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:07:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.100434.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>
>Right on the nose! Sea Wasp loves powergaming with tons of dice, the
>more the better. He loves Rolemaster, with its unbounded d100 from hell
>charts for everything in the world, and Space Opera, which is the only
>game to require more out of the players when generating a character than
>Rolemaster. I'm actually surprised that he doesn't go for even more
>complexity like in Living Steel, with the optional rules that break down
>actions into 1/100th second increments, but guess he'd rather play games
>that allow his character to survive hydrogen bomb explosions than games
>that let his character get killed by a stray bullet.
>

Oh come on. Sea Wasp a powergamer? I think you've got the wrong fella.
With regards to dying, I think the point is more along the lines
one does not want a game where a character would die for a
stupid reason. Sure people die in car accidents, have heart attacks,
etc.  Leave that for reality.

Now, if the character does something really stupid(like a character
I ran recently), well then you deserve what is coming to ya. Or,
perhaps in a climactic battle or by saving someone's life.

Just becuase one does not want to have to worry about little things
that plague an ordinary "real" life, that does not make one
a powergamer. 

Now, I guess if you like playing in a clone of real life, more power
to ya. Things would just be darn boring.

john
-- 
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __	
jnielsen@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy