From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: H. Ross Perot's proposed gas tax
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:43:57 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.

In article <BvrGpy.30x@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
>Raise the gas tax, and channel the money not to defecit reduction but to
>building of the infrastructure. That includes roads and public

That I might digest a little better; BUT. BUT. BUT. 

Creation of new roads only leads to heavier utilization, not to relief 
from congestion in many cases. That is, the moment a new freeway opens
up everyone will start using it and/or many people will move to take 
advantage of it.

Look at a map of the Detroit area and find I-696, coming from the west
suburbs into the Warren/Southfield area. After I-696 was built, a whole
mass of people moved from there (Southfield in particular, which is a
decent suburb) to even more 'affluent' suburbs of Farmington and Novi.
Pre I-696, this would have meant 1 hhour +. Post, maybe 30 minutes. 
Now, I696 is as congested as ever. That's known as 'people voting with
their feet'. (or wallets).

I live in the rural midwest. Kindly explain how mass transit will help
*me.* Do you think I *LIKE* driving in blinding snow? I'd work on the 
railroad for free if they ever lay one from where I live (Indianapolis)
to where I work (Kokomo). But it won't happen. Not unless it costs $10
one way. 

>transportation. As the tax is gradually phased in over a period of
>years, ridership on public transit will gradually increase, and the gas
>tax itself will subsidize mass transit, allowing for more busses and
>trains. The mass transit system will grow as the ridership grows. More
>routes will be established, more MT vehicles will be added along those
>and other routes, enough to accomodate everybody who needs it. Meanwhile,
>the rich who can afford the gas tax commute in their cars as they always have.

Hmmm. The above statement will work great in urban areas. I spent a couple
of months in Boston, and used the T quite a bit. But Boston has high
population density. Indianapolis (one of the many younger cities) does
not. How are you going to efficiently use mass transit there? Mass transit
works great in dense areas like Chicago or New York or San Fransisco
or college towns like Urbana/Champaign, Lafayette, or Ann Arbor. But not
in spread out cities like Indy. 

>>Second, nobody drives the phenomenal distances we drive here. I commute
>>30 miles a day, one way, and am not the only one...
>
>As has alredy been pointed out, the only people who have to commute
>these phenominal distances are those rich enough to afford to live in
>nice suburbs. The working poor can't afford to live in a nice house like
>yours; 

Quite a dumb statement. My apologies it it offends you. I was at the mall
the other day having a hair cut and the girl doing the hair cut told me
she commutes from 30-40 miles away. Why? 'cause where she is there are
NO jobs other than Walmart and McD's, both at minimum wage. She can not
afford to move closer to where she works. That's what I'd call the
working poor... I doubt she made more than $12K/year. 

Another easy way to see it. Every day in my commute I get to learn all
the other people who do the drive. We see the white Buick with the
funny bumper sticker, the Honda Accord with the US flag in the back,
the cop with the Mustang, etc. Along with us (in our brand new cars :-))
there's a whole army of people commuting in beaters, from rural places
around the Indianapolis area, coming where the jobs are. Not very hard
to spot them in their mall uniforms, rural licence plates...

A third way. There is quite a commute crowd from Kokomo to Indy and
back; Many are spouses of local engineers who could not get employment
in town; other than us and a transmission plant, there's little else
to do it town. So the spouses either stay home or drive down to Indy
(or other areas) to work. It is not the case of the 'rich' driving from
their 'burbs to downtown...

A fourth way. Dual career couples living in the midpoint of the two
jobs. Here, one job can be downtown Indy and the other Kokomo. This
forces both to a 30 mile commute. Is it luxury or economic necessity?

>happens to be much closer to where they work. No 30 mile commutes for
>them. In fact, they probably live right on the bus route.

The bus fare from Kokomo to Indy was $8 in 1985. I have no idea how much
it is now. The bus does not serve rural areas. 

>Yeah, right! NOTHING you have said about the working poor in Europe has
>made their situation seem worse than the situation for the WP here. In
>fact, you've admitted that the WP over there have it BETTER in many
>ways, despite the higher gas taxes. If anything, you've argued very
>eloquently IN FAVOR of a hike in the gas tax.

You seem to think that the gas tax pays for all the 'goodies' that the 
working poor (or middle class) of Europe enjoy. Not so. People in Europe
also pay spectacular tax rates overall (i.e. 50% or more), lots of 
indirect taxes (forcing a Honda Civic to $20,000), and so on. 

Other goodies seem to cost a lot less there just because they are TOO
expensive in the US to start with. Health care and education being the
two most preeminant.

>>(Formerly working poor in Europe)
>
>...And now working middle class in the US who really doesn't know how the
>working poor in the US actually live.

Your opinion. I survived for 2 years as undergrad on $6000 a year and
two more years on $7000 a year, with a car etc, as a grad student. I 
bet you never had to make the choice of groceries vs. dental work. I did.

And I'm not middle class here... I'm upper middle class, top 6% of income.
Thank God :-)

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       striantafyll@kosds1.gm.hac.com
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]