From: car377@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (charles.a.rogers)
Subject: Re: We are sick and tired!!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:36:20 GMT
Summary: One born every minute

In article <genx3sO00YUn0Xpi8e@andrew.cmu.edu>, Mark Joseph Andy <ma1w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

> Howdy,
> 
> Get a grip Chuck.

Live to Flame, Andy.

> car377@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (charles.a.rogers) writes:
> > Ask your buddy if he reads all the
> > text in all the articles and advertisements in every motorcycle magazine he 
> > picks up, as well as the page numbers, bingo cards, the publisher's legal
> > disclaimer, and the editorial staff listing.  
> 
> Uh, I usually do.  That makes me bizarre???  I thought I was just
> suffering from a lack of sufficient motorcycling literature.

Yeah, I'm bizarre too, but I don't require the magazines to send me
specially-printed copies minus all that stuff to save me from my own 
inability to stop reading it.

> > And your notions concerning how rec.motorcycles ought to be sanitized would 
> > be better posted in alt.censor.wannabe, IMNSHO. 
> 
> I don't believe he was suggesting any change whatsoever in rec.mc.  

Can't change the structure of rec.moto without changing rec.moto.  

> He was suggesting a group devoted to technical questions and answers.
> This allows folks who don't want to have 8 gigabyte kill files and
> have to sort through posts to read, post, and learn from a more
> focused area.  It may come as a shock to you, but many folks don't
> care about the social commentary, or (like me) are more interested in
> technical discussions.  

What comes as a shock is your sudden reversal.  A paragraph ago,
you claimed you read all the meaningless noise in all the MC 
magazines because you can't get enough, but now you're claiming 
rec.moto provides too much, and you need a subgroup to do your 
filtering for you.  Say, maybe if you didn't spend so much time
reading the MC magazine cigarette commercials and army surplus
want-ads, you could spend that extra time filtering in r.m and 
get more accurate coverage of the tech articles!

>No one is saying that the social stuff is bad,

"Crap" isn't exactly a complimentary descriptor, hmm?

> > Helpful hint #1:  The most successful strategy by far for creating a
> > forum optimized to satisfy the desires and needs of a *single* rider
> > is the mailing list mechanism.
> > ... 
> Are you this much of an arrogant ass all the time?  

Only when I'm responding in kind.

> I'm familier with
> two mailing lists, 2strokes and the race list.  Both make no attempt
> (beyond extrememly minor self-policing) to control subject matter.

Sure they do.  Their *nature* is to restrict subject matter fairly
closely to the list topic, and that's what they do, according to every 
account I've heard, including yours, and my own experience on the lists.

> There have been "non-relevant" discussions in both.  However, unlike
> rec.mc, the technical stuff has been predominent.  

So you want to create yet another rec.moto with a slightly different 
focus.  The problem with this strategy is obvious:  

Lists are *much* better at limiting "non-relevant" discussions
than newsgroups, but you concede that even lists are subject
to CRAP (I use CRAP as a generic term in this context).

Subgroups are much less effective at CRAP-control and topic-focusing
than lists: witness the continued presence of HD material
in this group and the continued presence of CRAP (native-mode
and otherwise) in r.m.h.

Ergo, r.m.t will split off *some* of the expertise and *some* of the
CRAP.  The rest of the expertise will remain in rec.moto, along
with the inevitable CRAP.  With a smaller expertise pool available
in either forum, you'll have to cross-post and read everything in
both groups to get the *same* expertise coverage you already enjoy.  
Some won't be motivated to provide the usual e-mail response to the 
frequently asked technical questions, because they'll assume someone 
over in r.m.t is handling it, and many won't read r.m.t at all because 
it will be boring, boring, boring, and they'll apply their limited 
Netnews processing resources to the more interesting and diverse group.  
Of course, nobody but Net.chekists will hew to the letter of the
the law where Netiquette is concerned: folks *already* don't do that,
as our friend who instigated this fiasco has pointed out, so what in
Bob's name leads anyone to believe that they'll suddenly change and
start being good little Net.doobies just because yet another rec.moto
appears?

I've been watching all this happen in r.m.h.  I'm sure the active participants
in that group are delighted with it, but I'm disappointed at the mediocre
technical content in what was envisioned as an improved HD technical forum. 
I get more and better technical HD material just by reading "Hot Bike", 
"Motorcyclist", and "Road Rider", including specific and accurate
answers to questions which have remained largely unanswered in r.m.h,
but which *have been* answered in r.m in the past.

> This reflects the
> desires of ALL the posters/readers.  However, there are some big
> problems with mailing lists.  Depending on your software, they may be
> more difficult to deal with.  They certainly are more difficult to
> find.  And some folks can't receive e-mail (but can get netnews
> bboards.).  Why is a list such a better solution than a subgroup?

Because access is more controlled.  You don't get the automatic access 
like that obtained by logging into a public BBoard, and everyone has to 
expend a little energy to make the list work.  The population of a list 
is self-selecting.  The "big problems" you enumerate act to keep everyone 
away except those who really *want* to be there.  You don't get as many 
non-relevant articles because posters of non-relevant material won't 
expend the energy/trouble necessary to get on the list.

> > Helpful hint #3: If you want a question answered, be creative when you
> > post it, and try to make reading it an interesting experience.  
> > ...
> 
> You forgot to mention some snazzy subject title so that your message
> doesn't get swept up with all the other "crap" that folks like me
> don't read when they're pressed for time.

Subject lines don't work any better than subgroups do, where filtering
is desired.  They are generally not a good indicator of topic, because
threads mutate.  You either read everything, "crap" and all, so you
won't miss anything, or you acknowledge that you'll inevitably miss
something and develop a personal heuristic to do the filtering so
you'll at least derive enjoyment from what you *do* read.  A blind
automated mechanism is *not* better at this than a human brain is
(that is, unless the brain is *really lame*).

> ...
> I like the ability to keep up on the technical stuff while letting the
> social stuff slide a little.  I think a rec.mc.tech group would be a
> big help to me, and to others.

If it worked effectively, it might.  It won't, because it depends for 
its effective operation on the notion that human nature will somehow 
be magically overcome, and everyone will follow the rules.

However, your belief that it will in the face of rather obvious and
 convincing evidence to the contrary moves me to make you this one-time, 
limited, and unbelievably attractive offer:

I can let you have a really killer bargain on genuine Venison-B-Gon(tm)
Deer Whistles.  They *really*, *really* work!  A safe and effective 
ruminant deterrent for Mule Deer, White-tail, Gazelle, Kudu, Pronghorn, 
Elk, Giraffe, Moose, Holstein, Jackalope, and Buffalo. Don't miss out on 
this incredible opportunity of a lifetime!  In a motorcycle shop you might
pay $50, $60, or even $70 for one of these little jewels, but while
supplies last, you can mail order them for only $39.95!!!! (Plus $3.50
shipping and handling) Call 1-800-HOT-DEAL, and have your credit card 
ready, before the limited supplies are all gone!  Order now and receive
a free optimal radius calculator for drilling your own disks to improve
cooling!

:-)
Chuck Rogers
car377@druhi.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles