From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: More Defense of CLI (there, I changed the subject ... )
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:51:15 GMT

In article <ewright.718572368@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>In <1992Oct8.021111.17968@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
>
>>No, Unix doesn't hold your hand and point out all possibilities.  It relies
>>on the ability of the user to generalise and think of useful combinations
>>of commands.  Once you can do that, you have considerable power at your
>>disposal.
>
>Once you can do it, you can write your own C programs, too.  Why should
>you bother paying $500 for Pagemaker, when, in a few short years, you
>can write your own.... unless, of course, your time is worth something.

Yeah, sometimes I do write a quick C program to accomplish something - just a
quick hack I'll throw away because it's easier in some instances to code in C
rather than write an awk or sed or shell script.  The point is that you use the
appropiate tool for the job and, with Unix, you have a large array of tools at
your disposal.  My time is worth something (at least they do pay for some
strange reason), and the time I've invested in mastering Unix has paid itself
off since.  Then again, it's not as if I spent a year learning, then reaping
the rewards since - it's a case of learn as you go.  Not so painful, really.

>>>However, you
>>>forgot one thing about find.  "The syntax is cumbersome."  That 
>>>isn't just my opinion, it's listed as a bug on the man page!
>
>>That's a consequence of it's inherent flexibility.  I don't find it a problem.
>
>Rubbish.  It's a *bug*, dammit.  It says so right in the scriptu... er,
>man pages:
>
>>BUGS
>>     The syntax is cumbersome.

Fine.  It is cumbersome.  It's also flexible.  I just don't see how the first
can be fixed without losing the latter.  That's why we still have that
syntax after all these years.  It's the price you pay.

>  Of course, you can do a lot on the Mac
>without ever needing to write a script.  Can you say the same
>thing about UNIX?  

Yep, most of our users only ever see a front-end menu, and hardly know a thing
about Unix.  They still get their work done.  It's just that you can get more
done if you're familiar with scripts, or even simple pipe combinations (pipes
being a CLI advantage, which is what we're supposed to be discussing).

>Yes, you can make more and more efficient use of your system...
>though your CLUNK will never be as efficient as what you
>disparagingly call a "GUI." 

Well, I guess that sums up our point of disagreement pretty well...

>>Most other systems seem to only let you go so far as your 
>>experise increases.  Unix lets you grow.
>
>Yep, and when you've spent hundreds of hours "growing," 
>what have you produced?  Nothing but a bunch of UNIX
>shell scripts.  Unless your goal in life is to become
>a UNIX system manager,

Hey, I already _am_ a UNIX sysadmin!  :-)

>what has this new knowledge qualified you to do?  

It's made it possible for the newly educated user to make more efficient use
of his/her environment, which we assume they're using for real work.


-- 
David Meiklejohn (also known as davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
 - Regional support guy for PC's, Unix, and networks thereof.
 - But I'd rather be using an AMIGA!  Wouldn't you?
Find me in Mareeba, Australia (on the pointy bit in the northeast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy