HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: st17y@rosie.uh.edu (Belding, Troy C.)
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 23:26:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes...
>hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129) writes:
> 
>[...]
>>1.  Does BSA policy require you to swear to God (or a god)?  Or, is this 
>>an infered interpretation?
>[...]
> 
>==================================
>Chicago Tribune (Sept 25, 1990) says:
> 
>"'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and
>  my country,' goes the Boy Scout oath. The Boy Scout law
>  also invokes the deity. A Scout, it says, is 'reverent'
>  toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and he
>  respects the beliefs of others.'
> 
>  'If a boy does not subscribe to these precepts, he cannot
>   be a Scout," a spokeswoman at the Boy Scouts' national
>   headquarters in Dallas explained."
> 
> 

	What I have found is that the BSA really only wants a belief in
a higher being (beings?).  Be it angels, demons, aliens, whatever.
The definition of a god tends to be(notice little g) a higher being or 
force.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven          Troy C. Belding
and substantiated to be better             ST17Y@JETSON.UH.EDU
than what I am currently                   HSSM@MENUDO.UH.EDU
experiencing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: per@aber.ac.uk (Peter David Roberts)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Need Help on trip to London
Keywords: 2 camp sites 1 address
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:48:18 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth


The suggestion of BP House is one I entirely endorse however you may have
trouble booking in. (well worth a visit anyway as part of siteseeing in 
London.

If however they are full you will need to look elsewhere Youth Hostels are
not reccomended as they are very expensive. I therefore suggest the following 
two campsites

Chalfont Heights Scout Camp
(cant remember the address but this should suffice)
Chalfont St Peter
Bucks.
England,

This site has 5/6 indoor huts as well as a large camping area, access to london
by British Rail station about 10min walk away.


Gilwell Park
(cant help on address but contact BP House and they wil tell you)

There are also a series of other campsites around central london with train 
access. Again BP House will help you out on addresses
Pete
-- 
* Peter Roberts, JANET per@uk.ac.aber INTERNET per@aber.ac.uk.       *
* Palynology (Postgrad), U.C.W. Aberystwyth.                         *
* " Ah but mountains are holy places, and beauty is free, you can    * 
*  still walk through the garden, our earth was once green" - Runrig *
From: lynnef@gadget.LABS.TEK.COM (Lynne Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Greetings, intolerant fascists
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:50:53 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Computer Research Laboratory, Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton OR


About Scouting in countries where Buddhism is one of the country's religions.
I don't know about Boy Scouts, but there are Girl Guides/Scouts in those
countries.  The wording of the promise is slightly different for
Buddhist scouts.  (Source - Trefoil Around The World)
--
Lynne Fitzsimmons		lynnef@crl.labs.tek.com

"On the contrary, I have created a subroutine specifically
for you, a program within a program" - Data
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: Dakin Burdick <burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:49:05 -0500

In article <8054@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> mayne@sun16.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.012054.21412@uwm.edu> dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie) writes:
>
>>The BSA does not discriminate on the basis of religion,
>>we discriminate on the basis of a lack of religion.
>
>I submit that discimination on the basis of "lack of religion" is
>still discriminaion on the basis of religion, as intended in the
>U.S. Constitution and the United Way Charter. The latter, at least
>should apply to the BSA as a United Way supported agency. Theists
>are quite happy to assert that atheism is a religion requiring just
>as much faith as believing in God when that argument suits their
>purposes, and to claim in court that secular humanism is a religion
>if that can advance their book banning.

I'll go further.  As an atheist, I'd have to say it takes a lot more
faith (in science) to declare there is no God.  Christians who affirm
their faith may have to face a bit of criticism for their particular
religious interpretation, but atheists get blasted by Christians
as "servants of Satan," face the everlasting flames of Hell (no matter
how nice they may be), and are assumed to have no moral beliefs at
all.  

When I talk to the door-to-door religious spokesmen, or to my
fundamentalist Christian friends, we agree on nearly every moral
decision.  We just part company on the existence of God.  Isn't 
belief in people good enough?  What about Cicero's "On Friendship,"
Rousseau's "Social Contract," Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations,"
or the works of Epicurus?  Can't people learn morality from those
men?  I'd say morality and ethics is a lot more important to human
existence (and Scouting) than faith in a supreme being.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
Subject: Horseman - Webelos Activity Pin
Reply-To: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 05:46:23 GMT


A fellow district Scouter was telling me today that when he was a Cubmaster
he was going through some of his pack's supplies and came across an
interesting Webelos Activity pin.  It was for the "Horseman" activity.

He donated it to our Scout Museum at Council Headquarters.

He said that the pack has been around since the early 1950's and we figured
that it must have been an activity around that time.  We also wondered what
the requirements were for the activity.

Anyone out there know what the requirements for the Horseman Activity were?

I would appreciate a copy if anyone out there has an old Webelos book.

     +------------------------------------------------+-------------------+
     | Jack W. Weinmann  bk233@cleveland.freenet.edu  |  \  /\  /|E       |
     |                  jweinman@heartland.bradley.edu|   \/  \/ |C       |
     +------------------------------------------------+          |C  J W  |
     |     "If you ever forget that the BOYS are      |          |S       |
     |    the most important part of the program -    |          |  19    |
     |                                                |          +------  |
     |          FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO!"           |            /  \   |
     |                                                |           ( 90 )  |
     |   - Mr. John Gitzen, CM  ECCS-19 Wood Badge    |            \__/   |
     +------------------------------------------------+-------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@ds2.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Real BSA Issues (was: another greeting)
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:57:01 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@ds2.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Apr6.163656.17895@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>As far as the issue of United Way support, I could complain that the
>local YMCA is a receipient.

To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), the YMCA, in
spite of the C, does not practice discrimination on the basis of
religion, or the lack thereof (which is the same thing). The BSA
cannot make that claim. I know I was not asked to profess belief
in God (of any kind) to join a local YMCA so I could use the exercise
facilities. Nor have I heard of YMCAs discriminating against
homosexuals.

> As far as other civic support, among the
>groups, besides our Troop, that work at the local recycling center for
>a share of the profits, is the youth group of a local church.  Should I
>complain because I'm indirectly supporting a Christian church or 
>Christian ideals?

If the local recycling center presents itself as a fund raising organization
with a policy that recipients do not discriminate on the basis of religion,
like the United Way does, then yes, you would have every right, maybe even
a duty to complain. On the other hand merely being employed at the same
place as a person or group does not constitute indirectly supporting them.
I have no desire to withdraw from society and associate only with those
with whom I agree.

>Let's separate the signal from the noise in this group, and if we're
>going to discuss BSA policies and issues, let's discuss real one,
>as opposed to agendas of groups whose goals are to oppose societal
>norms instead of working within them.

In this case one person's signal is another's noise. The morality
and consistency of BSA national policy is a legitimate issue. As we
have seen quite a few active scouters, as well as present and former
scouts (like myself) disagree with the national policies requiring
troops to discriminate. I think of some of the complaints not as
opposing societal norms, but as promoting values like honesty,
fairness, respect for diversity, and nondiscrimination which are
very much a part of our democratic heritage. It is geneally agreed
that if the BSA was not a private organization some of its policies
of exclusion would be clearly illegal. Why can't the BSA work within
the societal norms which are behind those laws?

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Subject: Milwaukee United Way Breaks with National UW
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: rec.scouting
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:51:05 GMT

An interesting item in the front page of today's Milwaukee Sentinel.
The Milwaukee Chapter of the United Way has severed all ties with the
United Way's National Organization. Hmmm . . . Like I have said before,
The United Way would do well to get its own house in order before it
takes any moral high ground with the BSA.

Just my humble opinion. . . flame away if you must.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:37:48 GMT

Lawrence> If you want to see real honor and bravery go ask some GBL's
Lawrence> about there life stories. Would you have the guts to go on
Lawrence> after being kicked out of your house, beaten up, had friends
Lawrence> killed, lost jobs, just because you refused to live a lie?

brentr@cs.colorado.edu (Brent Reeves) writes:

[...]
> I defend a GBL's right to vote, but don't whine about discomfort; be
> open to the possibility that pain is often a wake-up call.
[...]

I find the idea that the victims of violence should not complain
because they may deserve it repugnant. For the sake of the BSA, I hope
you don't claim to have learned this idea from scouting.

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:06:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Apr5.231221.17964@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester) writes:

>That's up to you.  I simply said that ANY organization with stated ideals
>has the right to deny membership to people who refuse to conform to those
>ideals. 

But of course they have that right. What we're trying to discuss here is whether
a youth social service organization like the BSA ought to choose to put itself in
the company of groups like the KKK, the Aryan Brotherhood and WASPs-only country
clubs everywhere.

Seems to me like maybe it should not. 

(Note to the irony impaired: remember that demands for non-Christians and gays
to abandon their identities are as immoral and pointlessly silly as asking Jews
to become Gentiles and blacks to become white.)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mcmahon@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael G. McMahon)
Subject: Re: World Brotherhood Camporee
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 05:57:45 GMT

In article <5APR199201170834@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> ae313406@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu
(Vance Kochenderfer) writes: 
>
>        Anyone out there been to the World Brotherhood Camporee on
>the US/Canada border?  Unfortunately, I haven't been for the last
>few years..  
   Was it '83 when the patches had an orange border?  I've still got a
couple of those suckers left SOMEWHERE!  And I think it was the '74 that
was rectangular, another tough one to bag.
   Sigh.  Many moons ago.
Peace.
-mike



-- 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist:
  the fashionable non-conformist.   -ayn rand
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stolz@fnboot.fnal.gov
Subject: REPOST: help request - world-wide FAQ sheet
Organization: P.S.C.
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:14:43 GMT

(In an effort to halt the loss of Scouters - lets do something constructive )
...

My wife will undoubtedly shoot me for volunteering to do yet another 
Scout thing, but here goes.  I'm willing to spearhead an effort to create an 
international Scouting FAQ sheet.  I'd like to break this up into two chunks.  
The first would consist of a brief synopsis of the Scouting programs in 
each country.  I'll include a suggested list of info below.  My idea here is 
to give folks from other countries a quick idea of how Scouting is 
organized internationally.

The second chunk would consist of resource people.  My idea here is to get 
one or two volunteers from each state, province, region, canton (whatever 
it takes to break a country up into manageable units).  Each resource 
person would compile their own list of regional Scout offices, and the 
scout camps they manage.  For instance, the BSA in Illinois has about 15 
Councils that support around 50 Scout camps.  If someone wanted info about 
Illinois, they would check the resource list for the Illinois resource, then 
send a direct request for their FAQ sheet. 

I have enough disk space available to offer myself as an archive site.  I 
can't take GIFs though, my Macintosh isn't THAT big :-) .  

In order to make this work, I need two kinds of volunteers -

A lot of international posters have already described the scouting 
programs in their countries - unfortunately, I didn't save any of those 
posts.  Those of you that produced those descriptions, could you re-send 
them to me.  In an effort to make the international listings as consistent 
as possible, I suggest the following format:

*) Country
*) Scouting Organization
*) National office address
*) A very brief description of how the program works.  
*) (in table format)  - type of scout    rank   age   grade   boys/girls/both
*) Scout Oath
*) If it seems appropriate, the Scout Law, motto, slogan or whatever.
*) your name and e-mail/Internet/UUCP address

Please keep these listings to a maximum of 60 lines per Scouting organization 
(less if possible), I'd like to keep this FAQ sheet under a 1000 lines for as 
long as possible.  

I also need folks willing to compile FAQ sheets for their locale.  If you're 
willing to be a resource for your state, province, canton, region or 
whatever, please send me your Internet address and the region & group(s) 
you'll be a resource for.  If you already have, or can compile a list of local 
offices, but can't act as a long-term resource, that's okay too.  Send me 
what you have, and I'll 'advertise' for someone else in your area that is 
willing to keep the list up to date.

Come on Scouters - lets make this newsgroup a success!
Mike S.
***********************************************************************
*  BITNET: STOLZ@FNAL           INTERNET: STOLZ@FNBOOT.FNAL.GOV
*  Phone:  708-840-8060         
*  MS:     120                  Wilson Hall 8 East
*  FermiLab,  P.O Box 500,  Batavia, 60510
***********************************************************************
From: ss@panix.com (Steve Steinberg)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA Webelos camping
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:22:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

I have a memo from Frank Kule, Queens Field Director, from Queens Council &
Greater New York Council date 1/15/92 re: Cub camping in Greater NY Council

	[...]

	We have been certified as a "Test Council" by the National Office.
	The "Test Council" status relates to Cub Scout camping.

	"Test Council" status allows the councils, districts and units to do 
	more camping at all age levels - thus, extending Cub Scout TMR
	Programs.  [TMR-our scout camp]

	The Cub Camping is referred to as Family Camping and required [sic]
	a 5 to 1 (boy to leader ratio) or less (3 youth to 1 adult is the 
	preferred).

	Den Leaders, Committee Members and Parents should act as guardians
	or weekend parents for the boys attending without parents. These
	"guardians" should be told before the trip what their responsibilities
	are:

		(a)	The Cubmaster should not be counted as one of the
			leaders watching 5 youth.  He will have enough to
			do as leader of his Pack.

		(b)	The trip, overnight or activity should be geared
			for the Cub Scouts - not Boy Scouts.

		(c)	Health and Safety measures should be followed.

		(d)	There are no restrictions on the number of over-
			nights allowed for Cub and Webelos.
	
		(e)	Follow the Youth Protection Guidelines.

	[...] Should you have any additional questions, please feel free to 
	contact your District Executive [...]
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism,soc.motss
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Letter from BSA National Office about discrimination
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:05:12 GMT

kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) quotes this inappropriate
from the BSA:

[...]
>Dear Mr. Kadle [sic]:
>
[...]
>Again, your kind words and support are much appreciated and give us
>encouragement to build on the values of Scouting.
[..]
>Ben H. Love
>Chief Scout Executive
>
>cc: Jere B. Ratcliffe, Regional Director, East Central Region
>    Robert B. Rydell, Scout Executive, Council #117
>    Jeffrey I. Sacks, Director, External Communications

I called Mr. Love's office this morning. I asked that they send
followup letters to everyone CC'd correcting the impression that I
support the BSA taking money from the United Way. I think they will do
this (after all, a scout is honest.)

If anyone else wrote and received an inappropriate response that was
CC'd to others, you should call or write for a retraction. The phone
number is 214-580-2000. Ask for the office of the Chief Scout
Executive.

- Carl


--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: ba06103@bingsuni.cc.binghamton.edu (ba06103)
Subject: Re: change
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 01:49:09 GMT

In article <1992Apr3.135658.6783@philabs.philips.com>, jpp@philabs.philips.com (Joseph Page) writes:
|> As a scout in the 60's (Troop 7 Harrison, NY approx 25 miles north of New York
|> City) I don't remember the views and policys of the National Organization
|> being push if stated at all.
|> Our leaders were not trained and we were lucky to have any father who would
|> come down to our meetings.

   I would like to hope that more scout troops have a strong leadership core. Espicaly with
the offerings of Woodbadge for adults and Junior Leader Training for Scout Leaders.
|> 
|> With the lack of leadership we the boys of the troop ran the troop and we
|> followed the Scout Handbook and the merit badge books
|> 
|> nobody came in and interperted them for us
|> 
|> The leaders today receive a lot of training - I haven't taken any of it so I'm
|> not sure what they learn
       Asside from the above there is Camp School for those who are going to give out merit
badges in the Summer Time. To pass one must know the basics from most of the merit badges in
that group as well as how to teach the information to other. I have gone twice. Once for
waterfront and the other for Nature.
|> 
|> When we were camping we spent as little time with the adults as possible 
|> Their roll was as a safety advisor  and transportation
|> 
        Now it seams that adults must be around for safty reasons except at certain times.

|> A lot of the topics being disscussed on the net never whould have come up in
|> my troop. We had a lot of fun - we learned to organize and run activities - we
|> the boys learned teaching skills - we learned leadership - we learned teamwork
|> - we learned to deligate and most of all we learned to respect the difference
|> that we all have.
|> 
|> I don't understand what's going on in scouting today but it is different than
|> what I was use to
|> Turning Boys or Adult Leadership down is beyond me
|> 
|> Joe Page
|> Eagle Scout 1971
|> Troop 7
|> Harrison New York

          Hope this provides some insights
Abel Sussman
Eagle Scout 1989
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Norse Theisms. (was Re: A Round-Up of Some Thoughts)
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:20:48 +1200
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> no, this (I think) is a misunderstanding.
> 
> I just had to spew out a history lesson.  Any mistakes (Spelling, 
> syntax, grammer, history, etc.) have been made in part due to a
> recently compleated physics lab.
> 
> Wayne

Thank you Wayne.  Yes it was a misunderstanding, based on ignorance on my part.

The point I was trying to make was that (a) Yes Scouting *does* discriminate,
and that (b) this discrimination is not wrong, just as it is not wrong to say
that it is wrong that a Mormon cannot be a Catholic.

Thanx to all that replied via e-mail.

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:59:54 GMT

whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl) writes:

[...]
> Their's nothing dishonest about my telling UW to get lost
>if they don't fund BSA.
[...]

Likewise, there is nothing dishonest about boycotting a supermarket
that will not let Boy Scouts (of A.) take 40 items through the
10-item-or-less line. Such a boycott, is, however, hardly commendable.
Moreoever, there *is* something dishonest about trying to take 40
items through 10-item-or-less line before the supermarket changes the
sign to "10-items-or-less except for Boy Scouts".

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting