HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: santen@dutiws.tudelft.nl (Marieke.van.Santen.IS-tel-7216)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 6 Sep 92 21:09:34 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: T W I, Delft University of Technology

post my message in reply to Irek defee; let`s give it another try.

>Mischa, could you provide some references to support your statements?
>Thanks in advance.
>
>MB

From: santen@dutiws@twi.tudelft.nl (M. van Vlaardingen )  
Organization: T W I, Delft University of Technology

Reply to:  Irek Defee (I'll try to explain myself better): 
and to: Marec.

>>when Auschwitz was built, it was built with the help the so called 
>>"gruene" prissoners, who became the role of capo. They were mainly 
>>Polish prisoners.
>
>You seem to be suggesting that this "helping" people were volunteering
>for the jobs, or what? I must assure you that most of them were also
>exterminated. 
>
The so called "gruenen" were not exterminated, since they were an active 
part of the extermination system. About not-exterminated non-jews: hitler 
gave order at the 2nd of october 1940, to kill the polish intelectuals and
aristocracy, so he did. In 1943 the wickest capo`s were asked to volunteere 
in the SS-division Dirlewanger. 
>
>>When in 1942 the first jewish resistance started in Vilna & Warsaw, they 
>>did not only have to fight germans, but also polands (especialy the
>>Armia kraiowa). 
>
>If you mean, e.g., Warsaw ghetto uprising, that's completely ridiculous.

Indeed that`s not what i meant: Ofcourse in the getto`s Vilna & Warsaw 
the fight was only against Germans. After the liquidation of the Warsaw &
and Wilna gettos some of the getto-fighters succeeded in escaping to the 
woods. There they formed the first (in a way FREE) jewish resistance groups .
Once outside they had to fight against Germans and Armia Kraiowa . 
>>After the 1943 uprise in Treblinke, about 487 jews succeeded in escaping from 
>>Treblinke most of them were killed by the Polish resistance..........
>>etc. etc.
>
>Please cite your sources, "etc.", looks like a sick folklore.
>Ire. 
Some of my sources: J.H Steiner : Treblinka : written in the 60`s; it`s a 
French document, i do not know of an english translation, i read the german 
translation. The book is based upon interviews with the survivors of the Treblin-ka uprise. Further: W. Shirer and especialy Dr. A.E Cohen : De 19 treinen 
(the 19 trains) : This is kaddisj for the 90% of dutch jews that were killed 
during the Shoa. One of the best books (espec. about the first years) about 
Auschwitz : Anus Mundi : Tadeusz ? (i forgot his last name, i can find it out 
in the library.) a not-jewish pollish intelectual. And ofcourse : the drowned 
and the saved : Primo Levi.


shalom.
>>Mischa van Vlaardingen.


*****************
Mischa van Vlaardingen               Betug mit Goische 
Nazarethstraat 3c                al heb je geen Poschut op zak
3061 KN Rotterdam, Netherlands              LiLaLo
Email: santen@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann)
Subject: Judaism and Women Readers (Was: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women)
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-28187]: bourbon
Organization: E.E. Dept., Tulane University, New Orleans, LA
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 03:28:21 GMT


As long as we're posting recommended reading on the subject:

Aura, a Jewish Woman's Reader
The Modern Jewish Woman, A Unique Perspective
Women and Jewish Law
Doesn't Anyone Blush Any More?
Jewish Marriage: A Halakhic Ethic
The Secret of Jewish Femininity

There's also a series of tapes from Beis Chanah Women's Institute in
Minnesota

David Kaufmann
INTERNET:	david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:32:55 GMT
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <goldberg.715770721@techunix.technion.ac.il> goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:

>    So back to you Hayim: I had written that the Polish government had
>not ALWAYS been so antisemtic as the non Jewish Poles, that's all. You
>missed the NOT ALWAYS. Also I repeated and repeat that Poland was not
>independent during long periods of times, but split among kingdoms (in
>the USA, you of course can't imagine a King taking no account of his
>subjects' feelings, you have elections  from time to time, don't you...)
>who were more busy fighting each other than expelling Jews on their
>frontiers, which I claim is why so many Jews lived in Poland. The  populace
>was anyway doing the job for them. What your contradictor does not understand
>is that the Jewish population could have been increasing in such proportions,
>in spite of being constantly suject to violence. He must explain that

 I said in another posting that Sejm, the Polish parliament during 
the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries passed legislation securing tolerance
and preventing e.g. the Inquisition to spread into Poland. It is
no secret that many Polish nobles were not in love with the Church 
and hence the legislation in Sejm. 

Your statement "...who were more busy fighting each other than 
expelling Jews on their frontiers, which I claim is why so many Jews 
lived in Poland. The  populace was anyway doing the job for them."
ignores that legislation.

>      Yaaqov (Jacques) Goldberg

 Lech Borkowski
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:40:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.090837.10706@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.131250.22603@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>I have NOT accused the Poles of genocide.  (Should I have?)  Your method
> You already did by claiming the phrase "Polish death camps" was adequate.

  What does the phrase "Japanese internment camps" mean to you? Have you
  ever heard them referred to as "American internment camps?" 

  It is understood that the word "Japanese" refers to the internees and
  not the operators. It is legitimate to use this short form since
  anyone who might think that they were in Japan would be so ignorant
  of the context that the phrase would convey no information to them in
  any event.

  Presumably, those who objected to the phrase "Polish death camps" would
  substitute "Nazi" for "Polish." So now, following the model of
  "Japanese internment camps" am I to understand that the Nazis were
  those being put to death? Ok, "Jewish death camps." That's no
  good, because according to the objection to "Polish," that would
  mean the Jews operated the camps. 

  It would seem that people are expected to understand the meaning
  from a combination of common usage and context. Sure, the
  unambiguous usage would be "Nazi operated death camps for Jews
  located in Poland." Common usage is that the only death camps
  were those operated by Nazis and directed (primarily) at Jews.
  No one who knows the context would think that the word Polish
  refers to either the operators or the victims. Anyone who
  doesn't know the context, won't have any idea what death camps
  are anyway.

  In the meantime, while Polish Canadians are objecting to a clumsy
  usage, Jewish Canadians have to get used to the idea, as decided
  by the supreme Court not two weeks ago, that it is perfectly
  legal to flatly state that there were no Nazi operated death
  camps for Jews located in Poland period, and Mr. Ernst Zuendel,
  who is no doubt gearing up his publishing operations at this very
  moment, doesn't accept dissenting letters to the editor.
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 13:31:18 IST
From: Anthony Waller <P85014@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kohanim & Converts

In article <1992Sep7.025854.20717@cs.tulane.edu>, js@cs.tulane.edu (Jan
Silbermann) says:
>
>What are the various Halachic opinions on these questions?
>
>1) Can a Kohen marry the daughter of a convert if the daughter
>   was born after the mother's conversion?
>
>2) Does it make a difference if the child was however _conceived_
>   before the mother's conversion (though born afterwards)?
>
>3) For each of these cases, if the answer is no but they marry anyway,
>   are their sons regarded as Kohenim?  Would they be Halachicly
>   obligated to divorce?

1) A daughter born after the mother converts can marry a Kohen.

2) Don't know for sure.  I would guess that the child is still considered
   Jewish even if mother had not converted at time of conception.

3) If the answer to 2 is no, and the daughter herself has to convert,
   then their sons i.e. the sons of the converted daughter and the Kohen
   are not Kohanim - they are hallalim and yes, the Kohen and the
   daughter would be obligated to divorce.  A hallal (first letter het)
   has the same laws as a yisrael, whereas a hallala (daughter of Kohen
   and those forbidden to a kohen such as divorcee, convert) cannot
   marry a Kohen.

-------
Anthony Waller         BITNET:    P85014@BARILVM.BITNET
Bar-Ilan University    INTERNET:  P85014@vm.biu.ac.il
Israel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: richf@comet.base.bellcore.com (Rich Farenci)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Reply-To: richf@cosmos.bellcore.com
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 16:41:03 GMT

In article <36962@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski) writes:
|> 
|>  Now on the subject of antisemitism in Poland. Mainly right-wingers,
|> ultra-nationalists and such were anti-Semitic but they did
|> not become a dominant force. Still, they did a lot of damage
|> to the Polish-Jewish relations. I am sure it will not be difficult
|> to find sources, for anyone who wants to read about it, with  
|> detailed description of what the anti-Semitic propagandists
|> said and what harm they have done to the Jews. 
|> 

the claim that anti semitism was primarily the product of right wingers 
and ultra nationalists shows very little understanding of polish attitudes
during wwii. it is sad to note that even in the accounts of the 
"righteous gentiles" who saved many jewish lives, the primary motivation
in the overwhelming majority of cases was economic and not moral, and that
it was only by living with jews that their polish protectors could even
begin to overcome their deeply held prejudices which often were a part of
their education.

rich farenci
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:24:39 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish

In article <matthew.715770113@munna>, matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
> mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
> 
> >In article <matthew.715668630@munna> matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
> >>As far as I know, between the two world wars the Jewish population in
> >>Poland markedly increased.
> 
> >And what do you conclude from this, other than that the Jews were not
> >being starved to death or forcibly inhibited from family life in large
> >numbers? 
> 
> >--Mark
> 
> The jewish population in Poland rose from ~6% to ~10% of the population
> (~35 million) between the two world wars, mainly due to immigration
> from other countries (e.g., from the Soviet Union alone came at least
> ~600000). All these people were not forced to come to Poland. They came
> on their own. They were given polish citizenships. Why would they
> migrate to such an anti-semitic country instead of a tolerant one, and
> why would such an anti-semitic country take them in when other tolerant
> countries would not? I don't know, it's beyond me. Can you explain?
> 
> MB

This has nothing to do with anti-semitism.  The Communists were starving
millions of Ukrainians to death during the 20's and Jews were quite
numerous in the Ukraine.  The difference in anti-semitism was
a wash, but people weren't starving to death in Poland.
Likewise, the Red-White struggles had taken lots of Jewish lives
(not because they were Jewish, just because they were in the middle
of the fighting).  Lots of Jews also moved from Poland
to Germany during this period.  Jews have learned to put up
with quite a bit of anti-semitism, as long as they can isolate it,
and work around
it.  My impressions of life in Poland from my grandparents
was that these kinds of compromises were a daily thing.

Given a choice of Stalin vs. Poland it doesn't surprise
me that lots chose Poland.  Lots also chose the ships
to America, but that was more expensive, a radical
choice, and was usually easiest if one already had
relatives here willing to sponsor you and help with
money.


	Seth Rosenthal


Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: michal@vsnmc2.cern.ch (Michal Szleper)
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Summary: Translation please
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, Geneva
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 07:22:55 GMT

Joel Goldberg writes:
>In article <1992Sep6.170355.1455@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
( ---------------- most of A. Zaleski's text deleted -------------------- )
>>NIE przygotowal kraju materialnie do konfliktu, NIE wypowiedzial wojny 
>>Rosji jak na nas napadla 17 wrzesnia, nawet WALCZYC DO KONCA nikt z nich 
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Ani margish k'dayag b'yam lo mukar.

( ------------------- A. Zaleski's text deleted ------------------------- )
>  Kamuvan, ein li shum musag mah katuv l'malah. Gam loh barur im echpat
>  li. Kol ha sikuim hem sheh ha polanim lo mevinim oti. Nireh im yavinu
>  ha inyan b'chol zot, oh sheh ekabel alfei milim al ha mishpat she
>  simanti l'malah.

I'm sure Joel Goldberg has just made some crucial remarks, only that
nobody in s.c.p. can understand it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my opinions. Quite predictable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Michal~ Szleper                          "All you need is love, love,
(michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch)                   Love is all you need..."
From: sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Masoretic variants
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:50:11 GMT
Reply-To: sgutfreund@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA

In article <88785@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
|> In article <18tg5gINNik9@agate.berkeley.edu>, rice@enterprise (Daniel S. Rice) writes:
|> >Unfortunately for the BHS, the Masoretic texts used by different
|> >communities differ from each other in only a few places,
|> 
|> What are these variants?  In Chumash, there's aleph-vs-hey in Ki Tetse,
|> and there are two places with discrepancies in Esther.  (Lubavitch custom,
|> eg, is to read those latter two both ways on Purim.)  Any others?

Regarding Ki Tetse there is the following entry in sefer Ha Yom Yom
for the seventh of Ellul:

The Alter Rebbe instructed that in the phrase p'tzua daka, the word daka
be written (in the Torah scroll) with an alef at the end, not with a hay.

In Prague there is a Torah scroll which - according to local tradition - had
been examined and emended by Ezra the Scribe. It is read only on Simchat
Torah and is always rolled to the portion of the Sh'ma. When I [The
Previous Rebbe] was in Prague in 5668 (1908) I saw the scroll, and in it
daka is spelled with an alef. So too when I was in Worms in 5667 (1907),
I saw a sefer-Torah written - according to their tradition - by Rabbi Meir
of Rotenberg, and there too the daka was written with an alef. See also
She'eirit Yehuda, (Yoreh De'a, 16) and Divrei Nechemya (Yoreh De'a, 22).
Mishtan Avraham (sect. 32) cites a number of works that deal with
this subject.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: branley@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:00:51 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem


...
    difference between Poland and France...
 In France french police realized the deportations...


     branley

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:03:15 GMT

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>In article <matthew.715669709@munna> matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek
>Blasikiewicz) writes:

>>Do you have statistics indicating "that the individual poles were
>>anti-semitic"? I mean, what percentage were so, to what extent, etc.

>I find it most interesting that after twisting and turning to find ways of
>minimizing Polish antisemitism, the final recourse is to demand
>documentation, statistics, and other numbers to gain time for another
>round of twisting and revisionism.

>Take a hint.  Many of the descriptions come from personal and family
>descriptions and experience.  There are an awful lot of us who have family
>that survived but lost other family members to Polish antisemitism.  Some
>of us can still point out that there were Poles that did help Jews  or
>that weren't antisemitic.

Enlighten us on this subject. So there are "awful lot of us who ... but
lost other family members to Polish antisemitism".
Please give details. I went through some old records (Przeglad Literacki)
which are, by definition, incomplete, but they mention an average of 10
Jews murdered per year for reasons potentially racist. While this
represents unacceptable racism (note that part of these murders were
committed by Ukrainians). OK, 10 is 10 too many, but hardly enough to
believe in your "awful ..." theory.

>-- 
>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org (John Spence)
Subject: Jewishness
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:34:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX

    I am taking a graduate course on the Holocaust and last night the
question of "Jewishness" arose. Rather, what constitutes being a Jew?
The Nazi's concedered "Jewishness" a racial category, but this concept
has been discarded over the years yet is still believed to be true. True
to whom -- the Jew or the non-Jew? Is "Jewishness" a religious category?
Someone mentioned that there are some Jews that believe that they are
Jews yet are atheists. I find that difficult to fathom. The Professor
felt that it was more cultural than racial or religious. My impression
of Jewish culture was something that was tied quite heavily to the
religion.

    The question still remains: What is Jewishness or being a Jew?

Would you please email me your responses and I will summarize on this
news group.
-- 
jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org                                (214) 235-7161 x4100
John E. Spence                                                  CompuTrac, Inc.
"I don't speak for CompuTrac, and CompuTrac doesn't speak for me!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Synagogue Financing
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:54:53 GMT

Hank Nussbacher writes:

>On this matter, do any shuls charge less or more for non-members for rosh
>hashona seats?  My shul just came out with this price list:

>Members: 250NIS (entitles one to 2 seats)
>Non-members: 100NIS per seat
>All children: 10NIS

>That means that a couple with 2 kids who are members pay 270NIS, whereas
>the same family of 4 who walk in off the street pay only 220NIS.  I was
>wondering if this was a new trend in shul financing throughout the world.

One policy that I've seen around here (northern New Jersey) is that
established synagogues do not normally sell seats to non-members.  In
my current synagogue, members can buy additional seats, but non-members
can buy seats for just one year.  If they want to come next year, they're
expected to join and pay like the rest of us.
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:27:03 GMT

In article <matthew.716431679@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>>  unambiguous usage would be "Nazi operated death camps for Jews
>>  located in Poland."
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>2. The camps were in German occupied Poland, not in Poland.
>I suggest: Nazi operated death camps in German occupied Poland.
   
   What difference does it make whether it was Poland or German
   occupied Poland where Polish Nazis were operating death camps?

   Huh? Hmm...

   Do we need to revise 2) still further or is there
   some cutoff point where one doesn't have to give a synopsis
   of world history before making a statement?

   Note: I am conceding nothing as to Maciek's point 1), but
   this is not the focus of the discussion, which was whether or
   not the phrase "Polish death camps" was inappropriate in a particular
   news story.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 8 Sep 92 11:00:51 CDT


In article <1992Sep8.155923@cs.utwente.nl> skow@cs.utwente.nl (Jacek Skowronek) writes:

>
>I am not keeping this legacy. I am ashamed of it. I detest it with all my 
>mind and heart. Every time I hear something offensive to Jews, I speak up.  
>

Do you also speak up when you hear something offensive to Poles ?
I read posts offensive to Poles like those falsifying and rewriting
their history and I didn't notice you're speaking up. Another
singlesided oversimplification ?

>
>By the way, there is no sense saying that our Jewish friends are wrong when
>they say Poland is antisemtic. I think we should prove the contrary by our own
>saying and deeds.
>
Do you mean also that there is no sense saying that Polish friends are
wrong when they say Jews are anti-Polish or is it next single-sided
opinion ?

>Jacek
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jacek Skowronek				e-mail: <skow@cs.utwente.nl>
>Departament of Computer Science
>Twente University
>Enschede, The Netherlands

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Orthodox "Monopoly"
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:16:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.035910.11656@sarah.albany.edu>, mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
|> 
|> I never heard of Orthodox Monopoly.
|> 
|> Do you get hit for tzedaka when you land on Chance? :-)

Not quite, but when I was a kid there was a board game called "Chutzpah" which
was based on Monopoly, but with a strongly Jewish (and funny!) theme.  Example:
One set of cards was called "you wanna take a gamble?"  Great game!
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"