From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: correct logic 
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:22:05 GMT

In article <1apoilINNrfu@agate.berkeley.edu> lmk2@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>In article <69973@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6390a@prism.gatech.EDU (BERNSTEIN,AVRON P) writes:
>>
>>Earlier, someone said that anti-Semite's have more frequent anti-Israeli
>>feelings than non-anti-Semites.  But to infer from this that an anti-Israeli
>>comments are indicative of anti-Semitic feelings too, is illogical.  It simply
>>cannot be implied.  To use an example, say we have the statements: 
>
>............
>>is incorrect.  An anti-Israeli post could come from someone anti-Semitic, but
>>it need not.  To take it further, an anti-Zionist who is an Orthodox Jew could
>>post a very anti-Israeli message (possibly), but would this mean that he is 
>>anti-Semite?  The same logic as from above could lead someone to say that:
>>some Jews are anti-Polish, therefore, an anti-Polish remark more likely comes
>>from a Jew than from a non-Jew.  This too would be wrong, but it uses incorrect
>>logic, just as the other statement does.
>
>In Michael Lerner's book "Socialism of Fools: Antisemitism on the Left", he
>has a very good breakdown of which kinds of criticism are anti-Semitic and
>which aren't.  To sum up one of his points, every criticism is context 
>dependent.  The same comment from a Polish person whose family/society has
>a history of antisemitism may be suspected to be anti-Semitic, while from
>a person with strong Jewish identity may be suspected to be not anti-Semitic.
>Even so, both comments must be judged within the immediate context, for
>even a person with strong Jewish identity may criticize Israel overly much

 How do you measure the "right amount" of criticism? 
What some people think of as the "right amount" of criticism,
some others may think of as excessive criticism. Who is the judge?

>because of internalized anti-Semitism, while the Polish person from a 
>very anti-Semitic background may be giving legitimate criticism.  The key
>is whether the person making the complaint also makes the same human
>rights complaint about the other nations in the Middle East, most of which
>have much greater human rights violations than those perpetrated in the
>Occupied Territories.

 Does that person, criticizing Israel on certain issues, have to make
the same human rights complaints, regarding other countries in the Middle
East, at *the same time*? 

 I see a potential problem there. Does that person have to accept 
your point of view in the beginning of the discussion in order
to avoid being accused of anti-Semitism? More specifically:
suppose you talk to a person who says "I don't agree with your
statement that most of the countries in the Middle East have much
greater human rights violations than those perpetrated in
the Occupied Territories". What would you say then? Would you
call that person an anti-Semite? Would you like to continue
a discussion with that person?

 I am only asking about the logical base for calling someone
an anti-Semite in the context of a discussion on problems
related to Palestinian-Israeli relations. I am not making
any statements about those relations. 
 
 Finally, I have a question about Lerner's use of the word "Pole"
or "Polish". In the fragment described above the word "Polish"
refers to "your average anti-Semite". Although the equivalence
is not stated explicitly, I wonder if he uses examples with
people of other nationalities. If not, what would you say
about that? And if he uses examples with people of other nationalities
discussing other contexts for anti-Semitism, which nationality
is used most frequently as an example? Do you have any comments
on that?
 Has Lerner been in Poland in the last couple of years and tried
to make some public opinion survey about attitudes to the Palestinian-
Israeli conflict? If so, I would like to know the data he gathered
and (presumably) published. If not, why does he use Poles to discuss
some aspects of the Middle-East issues? 


>Leslie

 Lech Borkowski
lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu