HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)
Subject: Re: Wilderness and Wolves
Organization: AT&T
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:43:38 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan8.114229.7652@doug.cae.wisc.edu> CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.102459.939@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
>   motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto) writes:
>>The point is, these parks and preserves are not truly wilderness.  Our
>>concepts of them as wilderness do the land and the animal inhabitants
>>a disservice.  We've got to stop pretending and face the facts that we
>>have to take responsibility for managing these lands for what they are;
>>parks.  They are people-created areas with people-defined boundaries
>>-- boundaries which are not recognized by nature.  They may be as close
>>as we can come to a real wilderness, but they do have unique non-wilderness
>>characteristics which must be accepted and managed.
> 
>It sounds like you are aruging that all areas should be managed such
>that people get the most USE from them.  I would argue that they
>should be managed such that people get the most BENIFIT from them.  Do
>you see the distinction?  With BENIFIT, one could argue (and I would)
>that people would get more BENIFIT from having places that are treated
>as "wilderness" (even though they are in fact influanced by factors
>outside of that wilderness area).  That means people get more benefit
>by simply having something besides human usage as the most important
>determinant in managing an area such as
>bears/wolves/name-your-favorite-non-popular-preditor or having the
>best bio-diversity possible (such as is provided by periodic fires).
Hi, Chris.

But hold on a second.  I never said that because these are people
defined areas that we should try to ge the most USE out of them!
I'm with you on the BENEFIT picture (even if we don't agree on the
spelling!).  I just don't think we are viewing the "wilderness"
areas in light of the bigger picture.  We need to be concerned
about a *possible need* to intervene in that ecosphere in order
to protect and enhance the benefits the area provides.  For example,
if acid rain is destroying a lake in a wilderness area, does it
make sense to try to rescue the lake with a water treatment plan,
even though it is in a "wilderness" area?  I would argue yes;  other
people disagree with me, saying we should not intervene at all in
such areas.  These areas may from time to time need the help of
concerned habitat/environmental managers in order for the detrimental
effects of events outside of the area to be countered.  That's what
I was talking about.

I am not opposed whatsoever to "development-free" zones, and you can
even call them wilderness if you want to.  But I don't want to sit
idly by while they are destroyed by influx from surrounding areas
and nothing is done about it in a mistaken assumption that it is best
to do absolutely nothing proactively or reactively in those areas.


Mary Otto




Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: andre.trudel@acadiau.ca (Andre Trudel)
Subject: Vizsla
Organization: Acadia University
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:37:10 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


I'm thinking of getting a vizsla for pheasant hunting.
Anybody have any experience hunting with them?
Would this be a wise choice for a pheasant dog?
Anybody know where I could purchase one on the American
or Canadian east coast?

Any advice on the breed would be greatly appreciated.`
I've never hunted with one. I just love the looks of them.


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly)
Subject: Bowhunting_in_New_hampshire
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:17:15 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

I am interested in bow-hunting for the first time this coming
season in N.H. I have never drawn a bow license before and have
heard a rumor that all first time bow hunters must take a
bow hunting safety course starting this year to get a license.
Does anyone have any confirmation of this?

-Steve


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Subject: Re: fox questions
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:17:05 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.102421.804@doug.cae.wisc.edu> cower@SSD.intel.com (Rich Cower) writes:
>
>Are foxes primarily nocturnal? I've had one poking around my yard for
>about a week (eating grapes). Yesterday it came into the yard when three
>of my Irish Wolfhounds were out - which seemed pretty foolish. Rather
>than risking the dogs getting bit by this small, sneaky creature (I
>suspect it killed a number of my chickens earlier this year) - I shot
>it. 
>
>I'm wondering if it could have been rabid? I live in an area where
>rabies is very active in skunks. I've never seen a fox so active during
>the day - I shot it just after noon. 
>
>I didn't skin it, but did save the tail. 
>
>thanks...rich 

I cannot say about theoretically but practically speaking we have seen
them at all times of the day in our area.

As our Wildlife people told me, foxes that are unusually bold around
areas inhabited by humans were probably raised as pets and then turned
loose when their owners tired of them or became intimidated by them.
We had the same problem of a very bold fox which stole chickens from
behind our backs as we stood in our yard. The wildlife people told me
that because of its lack of fear of humans the only practical way to
stop the problem would be to shoot it, so you did the right thing.

As for its being diseased, that is always a possibility but a pretty
low one. Also, rabies is not the only disease that would make a wild,
or even a domestic, animals act strangely. One of the more common
ones, more common than rabies, is distemper. According to the agent I
talked to about another fox a couple of years earlier that just laid
down and died in our field, even a trained individual cannot
distinguish between the two diseases based just on the physical
behavior. That is why they are adamant about having the brain for
testing. What I found somewhat distressing was that they will not test
such animals unless there was a possible transmission. Apparently the
tests are expensive.

geoff kotzar
From: CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Vizsla
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:24:01 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan4.083710.26189@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
   andre.trudel@acadiau.ca (Andre Trudel) writes:
>I'm thinking of getting a vizsla for pheasant hunting.
>Anybody have any experience hunting with them?
>Would this be a wise choice for a pheasant dog?
>Anybody know where I could purchase one on the American
>or Canadian east coast?
>
>Any advice on the breed would be greatly appreciated.`
>I've never hunted with one. I just love the looks of them.
 
 
My opinion is very biased, but the breed of choice is:
   Labrador Retriever
 
I'm pretty sure that Richard Wolters (the guy that wrote _Water Dog_,
_Gun Dog_, _Game Dog_, and _Family Dog_ lives in that area.
 
      -----------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |   President - Bryan/College Station
cbarnes@tamvm1.tamu.edu |         Retriever Club.
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |   "Dedicated to the betterment of
(409) 845-4437 (work)   |               the retrieving breeds"
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: keith@clodII.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Keith Boyd)
Subject: Great American Hunters Tour
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:43:29 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


Hello People,

    I just picked up the latest issue of North American Whitetail and
there is a page and a half ad inside the front cover proclaiming the
"Great American Hunters Tour" which is being put on by the NRA. This
tour will feature a large number of notable hunters and sportsperson's
such as Dick Idol and John Wootters to name a couple. The speakers
will vary at each location, however. The one day show will last
several hours and will feature video's, lectures and other things
including the NRA Great American Whitetail Collection of trophy bucks
and also trophy shed antlers. It will appear in over 60 cities and
will be here in Columbia, S.C. on Jan. 23. Admission will be $10 for
NRA members and $12 for everyone else. I plan to attend and if so,
will post a report on the outcome. (Hint: I will tell you if it is
worth the money imho).  There is a number to call for info:
1-800-492-HUNT. If I like it, I will post the dates and places given
later.

BTW: The magazine has an incredible story of a hunter who happened
upon two massive bucks with locked antlers who literally dueled to the
death.  Well, one was dead when he found them and the other was near
death. One of the bucks scored 172 2/8 and the other scored 171 6/8 on
the B&C.  The photo's alone are worth the $2.50. Some people have all
the luck.  There is also a photo of a decent S.C. buck in full velvet
taken by a hunter from Florida of all things. There is another photo
of a really monstrous buck taken in Alberta with a bow. This monster
scored 171 7/8 making it the number 2 non typical. What is really wild
is the rack was nearly covered with baling twine. I suppose the buck
got it while raiding a farmers hay barn for camo!. ;-) Awesome.


Enjoy!

Keith


---
| Keith M. Boyd  (NCR MCPD Cola.) | Nothing could be finer than huntin' and  |
| 3325 Platt Springs Rd.          |    and fishin' in South Carolina! -Me-   | 
| West Cola., S.C. 29170 |  Go Volunteers!   | keith.boyd@columbiasc.NCR.COM |
| Vp: 803-791-6419 or 6455    | From uunet: uunet!ncrcom!ncrcae!clodii!keith | 


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Bullet energy required?
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:37:19 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

I would like to find out what bullet energy figures are available to
tell me how much energy it takes to kill a particular type of game
with a well placed shot.  I have all the ballistics computation power
to give me the figures for any bullet and velocity I choose, but I
don't know how much is necessary.  I am particularly interested in
antelope, deer, elk, and moose.  Articles I have read seem to indicate
that 1300 ft-lbs would be sufficient for a deer, which means that my
150 grain .308 with initial muzzle velocity of 2800 fps would be
adequate out to 400 yards.
-- 
Dion Hollenbeck                        Email: hollen@megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen@uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek.uucp!hollen
From: DENNIS_@ncsu.edu (DGA)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: ESPN Shooting Sports programs
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:41:07 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.102411.770@doug.cae.wisc.edu> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
>From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
>Subject: ESPN Shooting Sports programs
>
>During which I discovered that ESPN airs (or has begun to do) a
>program about the shooting sports on Sunday mornings (10:30
>Mountain Time in my area).  Thought you-all may like to know.
>
>Last Sunday, it was about a black-powder meet and about the Grand
>National trap shoot at Vandalia (OH).  Seems like the previous week
>may have been about the Olympic shooting events.  Grits Gresham is
>the host.  Check it out.
>
> [Lots deleted]

Charlie,

Do you know about the Saturday morning line-up of hunting and fishing
shows on ESPN?

Sorry, I don't recall when they start, seems that it is about 7:00 am.
They last for several hours.

DGA
From: rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: It's time
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:23:52 GMT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Well, we're back at home. We went in last night (Monday) with the
contractions 3 minutes apart at 10:00.  We walked and walked and they
still slowed down to every 8 minutes.  So they sent us back home to
rest in our own bed.  Maybe this afternoon (or this evening, or late
tonight, or ...)

So, here's today's rec.hunting.

tim
From: everette_allen@ncsu.edu (Everette Gray Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: fox questions
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:41:39 GMT
Organization: NCSU Computing Center
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.102421.804@doug.cae.wisc.edu> Rich Cower,
cower@SSD.intel.com writes:
>
>Are foxes primarily nocturnal? I've had one poking around my yard for
>about a week (eating grapes). Yesterday it came into the yard when three
>of my Irish Wolfhounds were out - which seemed pretty foolish. Rather
>than risking the dogs getting bit by this small, sneaky creature (I
>suspect it killed a number of my chickens earlier this year) - I shot
>it. 
>
>I'm wondering if it could have been rabid? I live in an area where
>rabies is very active in skunks. I've never seen a fox so active during
>the day - I shot it just after noon. 
>
>I didn't skin it, but did save the tail. 
>
>thanks...rich 

Well there is always a chance it was rabid but I would guess that it
was not.  I just finished working on a research project with radio
telemetry on reds and grays in NC and they are plenty active in the
daytime esp. if they are hungry or just bored :-).

I don't think the fox would have hurt the dogs.  Hey if you had a
local fur buyer it could have been an easy $10 or so.  I would check
out you local hunting regs first tho.  :-).  Personally I like to
watch the little guys because they do some really neat stuff.  But
then my masters thesis depends on it and I don't presently have
chickens :-).

Maybe you should read "Red Foxes: The Catlike Canine" by J. David
Henry.  Fast reading, good science, and a little suprise.  

EVerette
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Subject: It's time
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:11:41 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Labor has finally begun and we should be heading to the hospital some
time this morning.  So, there may not be any rec.hunting posts for a
few days...

tim
From: jwahl@iastate.edu (H J Wahl)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Raising and Releasing Game Birds... Advice Needed
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:24:40 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

>there is an abundance of hawks and skunks in the area, as well as a
>few foxes and coyotes.  Aside from declaring open war on them ( for
>the most part illegal), what is the best way to rid an area of
>predators.
>     I'd love to do what I can to bolster the bird population on this
>particular tract of ground, but I need ideas.  The farmer who owns it
>is one the few still left around here who specifically leaves part of
>his ground untilled for the benefit of wildlife, and he too is open
>for suggestion.  I invite anyone who has experience in this area to
>share your ideas and opinions with us.


Dear Lance,

My brother used to work for the Iowa DNR and one of the many projects
he was involved with was near Ventura, Iowa where they fenced off an
area near a lake. As I recall, this area had alot of cover like weeds
and brush and some kind of grain, maybe sorghum planted in patches.
It was fenced with an electric fence with the bottom wire quite close
to the ground with a total of maybe 5 or 6 wires about 3" or 4" apart.
Inside the fence they set a bunch of box traps mostly for coons and 
skunks although they caught mink and weasels and many other kinds of 
predators in them. They released everything they caught either just 
outside the fence or at some other location a little safer distance 
away. He said that as long as they kept up the fence and the traps
that the ducks and pheasants had extremely successful nesting rates
inside the area.
Of course this took quite a bit of labor and covered something like
40 acres or so but judging by their success, I'm sure it could be 
done on a smaller scale with good results. I know there are many 
other things that can drain populations, but this would sure get
them off to a good start. Good luck.

Sincerley,
Jim Wahl
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Wolves! They're back?
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:42:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1993Jan8.114251.7719
Organization: Sun
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan4.084058.26527@doug.cae.wisc.edu> hjel@midway.uchicago.edu (Death-PartyCentral) writes:
>
>sight.  you mentioned people moving from california?....damn right, i
>used to live there.  talk about over developement...when i moved to
>the san diego area 10 years ago there was a large quantity of coastal
>area undeveloped, but in the last decade everything had been built
>upon.  first to go were the coyotes, then the rabbits, and finally the
>rattle snakes.  

They must have moved up to L.A.  (I often saw coyotes around the edges
of urban L.A. and in surrouding suburbs.  A small child was killed
some years back in Glendale by one.  A fellow studying urban-resident
coyotes in L.A. found two families resident in a single city block...)

You have to know where to look.  Coyote, jackrabbit, cottontail,
various reptiles all manage to adapt to quite a bit of urban
development...and if you were to fly low over the L.A. basin, you'd
find out why.  It *looks* like wall-to-wall concrete, but it's made up
of densely-built-up area separated by open/hilly land.  People don't
hang out down there where they can't drive, for the most part, so they
don't see *any* wildlife.

It's too built up for wolves, grizzlys (and me), but there's more around
than you might think.

Don't mean that I have to like it.

>too bad the American Indians didn't kill
>off the early settlers, at least the Indians had a clue as how to live
>WITH the earth.  

Right.

Like the mass buffalo hunts, driving them (and anything else on the
praries) by setting grass fires and collecting (some) of the meat at
the bottom of a local gully.

This is the sort of living with the land that explains why the
Mountain Bison, native horse and camel, and other critters weren't
around other than as fossils when the nasty europeans showed up.  (The
presence of (stone) knife marks on their bones gives a clue as to
their "natural" demise.)

The native americans weren't all *that* much more perfect than we are,
given equal opportunity.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Wilderness and Wolves
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:42:39 GMT
Organization: Sun
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan5.102459.939@doug.cae.wisc.edu> motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto) writes:
>
>Happy New Year to one and all!

Likewise, I'm sure.

>In August of 1973, I heard a talk given by a member of the Forest Service about
>a plan to handle the "pine beetle problem" in the Yellowstone and
>Grand Teton National Parks by letting lightning strike fires burn out
>naturally.  In May of 1974, I wrote a paper which refuted the arguments
>for letting fires burn, based mostly on the fact that the parks could be
>extensively damaged and the fact that the intense use of the areas made
>them unsuitable for the proposed "natural" management plan.  

With the exception of areas adjacent to the major road(s) in the Yellowstone,
most of the area is *not* intensively used.

>Sadly, the
>devastation of Yellowstone's forest land was the result of this misguided
>plan, and my warnings, and those of countless others concerned with
>conservation could not avert the tragedy.

Let's go back and look at the burned-off areas in Yellowstone
following the fires.

You will see a wider range of plant and animal life than in the
(artificially maintained) heavy timber of the pre-fire park.  Even the
burned areas are huge open expanses now, more like a series of "seas"
intermixed with archipelagos of timber.

If the fires had been fought in the old style, the end result would
have been lots of trees dead from pine beetle attack, and hungry
beetles looking for new lunch venues.

A similar problem occurred recently in southern Oregon/norther
California: another insect pest was getting out of hand and attacking
huge stands of timber.  A state plan to cut down affected trees,
restricting the spread of the insects and reducing the total loss of
trees, was stopped by activists.

*Lots* of trees died...fly over the area and see huge expanses of dead
fir and pine.

Now that the trees are dead, maybe it's time to maybe harvest at least
some of the standing dead wood?  Nope.  Plans to do so was again
blocked, and you've got a whole bunch of dead wood standing and laying
around.  Major fire hazard.  Regrowth is going to be problem for quite
a while (unless the fires clear things out), since the standing wood
blocks light and make it hard for successor plants to get established.

Conservation != *never*letanythingintheforestchangefromwhatwelike.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: mikef@bvc.edu
Subject: Re: Vizsla
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA
Date: 8 Jan 93 11:40:34 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1993Jan4.083710.26189@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, andre.trudel@acadiau.ca (Andre Trudel) writes:
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a vizsla for pheasant hunting.
> Anybody have any experience hunting with them?
> Would this be a wise choice for a pheasant dog?
> Anybody know where I could purchase one on the American
> or Canadian east coast?
> 
> Any advice on the breed would be greatly appreciated.`
> I've never hunted with one. I just love the looks of them.

I have had two vizslas and hunt with one currently owned by my
neighbor.  You are right, they are beautiful animals and pretty decent
hunters.  In my experience I have found them to be kind of high strung
in the field.  It has taken all three four or five years to calm down
into mature hunters.  They have tremendous noses, but aren't exception
retrievers.  All three, to varying degrees, have pointed, but none
ever retrieved a pheasant.  They would stand on or over the bird but
it must have been too big to pick up.  With quail, on the other hand,
they were fantastic pointers and retrievers.  Also, all three are
indoor/outdoor pets and are good with children.  You have my vote for
a purchase.

Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: clochmul@nrambr.chem.duke.edu (C. H. Lochmuller)
Subject: Vinegar and peroxide - lead removal
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:38:07 CST
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

The guy over at rec.guns left the mixture in the barrel overnight! Sure,
peracetic acid will attack even spring steels on long exposure. The idea
behind the vinegar and peroxide treatmment is to selectively remove lead in
a short-exposure {3-5 minutes} soaking of the bore. {cork the chamber fill
the bore and watch the bubbles!}

The .45ACP barrel in question was not identified as to material of
construction. Given that 10 minutes of exposure will erode away enough of a
1992 penny to remove the date, I would worry about some stainless steels. 

CHL