From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Some of Rajeev Gowda's actual views on Ayodhya ...
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:23:30 GMT

In article <C15w7t.8AJ@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, gowda@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (M.V.Rajeev Gowda) writes:
> 
> 
> Let me start with a quibble about the notion that the Babri Masjid
> was an UNUSED structure and therefore Muslims should have yielded
> it voluntarily to Hindus to satisfy majority sentiments (a view
> expressed by Satya Prabhakar, for example, in the strange company
> of the ever-valiant Alok Vijayvargia).  

You have not interpreted my post correctly. My suggestion to Muslims
in India is to yield on this Unused structure (since 1948 or earlier)
in lieu of greater police protection of their neighborhoods. That
is a practical suggestion and not rooted in any archeologic or political
debate on the issue.  

What is more important ? Better protection of Muslim lives or Resurrection
of an unused structure which is under dispute of being built after 
destruction of a Hindu temple ?

There is no point continuing this meaningless struggle over symbolism.
A practical person or community would look for substantive gains.
Believe it or not, from the posts even on this net I find Muslims
being more practical in expressing their views etc on this issue.
The fanatic posts have come from left leaning Marxists or those
who are disenchanted with Hinduism because of its (false) association
with Casteism. The real interest of such fanatics is not the safety
and prosperity of Muslims in India. Their real interest is in
gaining political power by (falsely) representing Muslim interest 
in India. They think they are doing a service to the Muslim community.
In reality they are serving their own latent interests and in the
process misguiding our Muslim brothers.

It is not the BJP/VHP, it is not even the Congress (I), it is not
even V.P Singh's Janata party, it is these Marxists who are fueling
the flames of communalism. They ought to be treated with their own 
weapon - propaganda.

> If my understanding of the history of this conflict is right, then:
> 
> The Babri Masjid was being used until the late 40's/early 50's
> when idols of Rama "miraculously" appeared in the mosque.  A

Let's not forget that the place has been under dispute even before that.
Accounts published on this net indicate that even during British Raj,
there were conflicts on this in Ayodhya. During Mogul period also, there
were flaring up of conflicts on this, however they were brutally suppressed
during the Moghul period for obvious reasons. During British period,
Britishers articulately managed the conflict to keep both Hindus and Muslims
under control.

I don't know when this building was last used for Prayers by Muslim
community. I wonder if it ever was used.

> being asked not to eat beef because go-mata is revered by Hindus
> and eating beef would be an insult to the national honor and
> culture.  And soon Muslims may be asked to partake of Hindu
> festival sweets during Ramzan fasts to prove that they are being
> secular! Where will this end?  
> 

This is an unwarranted and presumptious extrapolation on your part.
No one has ever made any statements which may even point towards
such extrapolation of a claim on a building.

> Can one not see that minorities have to live amidst a Hindu
> majority and that this can leave them feeling somewhat insecure
> and uncertain?  

Yes, minorities may feel unsecure and uncertain amidst a different
religious majority. Hindus feel unsecure in Middle East, Pakistan, 
Bangladesh even in Kashmir in India. My own brother felt unsecure
while living and working in Kashmir and moved to Punjab instead in
late 1980's. This is when Punjab was no more secure than Kashmir.
However there were more (Hindus) in Punjab so that they could
collectively oppose any harassment from the majority religion in
the state.

> How do the same netters who argue that Muslims
> should adapt to Indian and indigenous culture feel about things in
> the United States?  

I don't think anybody has argued that Muslims should abandon their culture
or religion in India. This is your presumptious extrapolation.

About things in United States, I feel fine.

> Do you holier-than-Rama-himself Hindus take
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Presumptious again.

> part in Christmas parties in your schools and offices and join
> Christmas carol singers and celebrate the majorityUs festivals in
> this secular country?  

In brief the answer is YES. I have even participated for one full year
in a Christian University Fellowship. Do you know what they are ?

(They are a group which engage in charity, singing, praying and
discussion of Christianity)

> Lots of Muslims celebrate Diwali in India,
> after all.  Do you feel totally secure and certain in a land full
> of white people?  Do you understand what it means to be a
> minority?  

No minority will ever be fully secure. There are Churches and Mosques
and religious television programs in this country where Hinduism is assailed. 
It used to be assailed even more earlier, however efforts of many Hindus 
(none of whom is a Marxist to my knowledge) have tempered such fervour.
Some credit for this goes to people associated with VHP of America.

> Do you understand why people in this country have
> holiday parties rather than Christmas parties, because this way,
> they are being sensitive to Hindus and others in this country to
> whom Christmas may have no meaning.  They are not pandering to us. 
> Just being sensitive.

That is misinformation. People have Christmas parties. They may say
Happy Holiday to you and call their party as a Holiday party just
keeping you in mind (being sensitive yes).

And such people rare not very many. Only those who are in Universities,
or big companies where there is enough religious diversity.

> As long as the BJP/VHP asked for the very spot of land on which
> the Masjid stood, there seems to me no room for compromise.  I
> would be interested in an archaeological study of the area now to
> determine whether there really was a temple under the Masjid
> structure.  

I agree. Such archeological studies however have been routinely conducted.

> And if it is so determined, then the time is ripe for
> us to raze the rest of Ayodhya and restore the grand palaces where
> Rama was born and where his early achievements occurred!  And then
> to go to Dwaraka and restore Krishna's capital city by raising it
> up from the sea bed to which it has sunk!  And then some ...
> 

ONce again a fanatical extrapolation ...

> What the BJP/VHP combine is doing is legitimizing violent
> retribution on spiritual and other descendants of dead invaders
> for the invaders' misdeeds.  

Wrong. They are only asking for a Ram temple to be built at the site
they think is the site where Ram was born.

Your statement is your presumptious extrapolation and no more ...

> Consider the following extension of

(Grossly presumptious extrapolation deleted.)

> HYPOTHETICAL MODE OFF>>
> 
> Does this sound too far fetched?  

Yes, it was weird too. It sounded like you are opposing BJP/VHP
because of your hatred for casteism. You know even I don't like
Casteism and has opposed it both publicly as well as in private
matters but I know (unlike you) that Casteism is not part of Hinduism
but is falsely associated with it. Casteism is part of Hindu society
but not Hinduism.

> Well, it is somewhat similar to
> what happened in Tamil Nadu in the 60's and 70's.  All it will
> take is for a few charismatic Harijan leaders to spring up and use
> the same logic and language used by the BJP/VHP to wreak havoc on
> the upper castes.  And then where will the BJP/VHP be?
> 
In the battle I suppose. There will be blood every where. It happens
very so often in states like Bihar.
High caste Jamindars are suppressing low castes, and low castes
revolt violently sometimes. 

> [With respect to Aryan influence being indigenous, the popular
> names of two major Harijan groups in Karnataka should be an
> indicator.  These groups are called the Adi Karnatakas and the Adi
> Dravidas, which mean simply, the original inhabitants of Karnataka
> and the original inhabitants of the south.  The BJP/VHP efforts at
> historical fraud are extraordinarily outrageous!]
> 
I am in agreement about "portraying Aryans as indigenous" as misleading
if that is what you meant. However even Dravidians of the south
are not original habitants or indigenous. We have had many historical
debates and reports on this net indicating that. There is significat
evidence now to infer that Dravidians migrated into India from
Meditteranian and West Asian regions.  Aryans migrated from Central
and Central West Asian regions and NorthEasterners including Bengalis 
migrated from North and Central East Asian regions.

Indigenous people of India are the tribal people of India who possibly
are related to the American Indians Australian aboriginees and African 
tribes.

> The BJP/VHP, with their forked tongues, argue that the Supreme
> Court has no basis to decide on matters of faith when it comes to
> the issue of Rama being born at the very spot where the Masjid
> stood.  Yet they argue that the Supreme CourtUs interpretation of
> the precedence of Islamic law in the Shah Bano case was wrong. 
> Both are matters of faith.  The same BJP/VHP logic could be used
> to term efforts by an Indian government trying to bring about a
> uniform civil code to be an affront to another faith.  Yet many
> thoughtful Muslims have the sense to argue against and to fight to
> overturn the Shah Bano decision.  But our BJP/VHP pandits have a
> direct line to God!

Sure, part of Hindu faith is that one should look for God within
oneself. Direct line is thus established :)

> The BJP/VHP sort of historical retributionist politics will take
> us nowhere.  Action is no doubt needed to correct injustices of
> history, for example, to create a level playing field for all
> Indians in terms of educational and employment opportunities.  But
> such actions should be affirmatively and positively oriented, not
> borne of vengeance.  What historical millstone did the Masjid's
> existence hang around the necks of all Hindus, most of whom were
> blissfully unaware of the existence of modern Ayodhya?  Will the
> BJP/VHP allow a trained Harijan to perform priestly duties in a
> rebuilt Rama temple.  Isn't Rama Rajya's enlightened monarchy
> antithetical to modern democratic ideals?  Wasn't the caste system
> entrenched under Rama Rajya?
> 
Once again, it is presumptious to assume that BJP/VHP are trying
to establish Rama Rajya of yesteryears. ONly thing they have asked so far
is building a temple to Ram. IMHO, Ram deserves a temple dedicated
to Him. But so does MK Gandhi. So does Kabir. So does Vivekanand.
If that is what you say, then I agree.

> No, what I see the BJP/VHP doing is merely creating a vote bank by
> using "us vs. them" tactics against a minority. The minority
> communities of India, battered and bloodied, can feel even more
> insecure now. Citing misdeeds of religious governments in other
> countries as evincing a need for us to turn our country into a
> theocracy misses the point that it is precisely because those
> other countries are premised on religion that we find the sort of
> atrocities and oppression there.  No sane person would want to
> imitate an insane one.
> 

YOur assumptions and extrapolations are highly presumptious and
appear to be politically motivated. Other parties inb INdia
have also exploited minorities as vote banks. I don't understand
why BJP is singled out.

> The timing of the BJP rath-yatra was clearly intended to avert the
> split amongst the minority upper-caste Hindus  and the majority
> lower-caste Hindus over the Mandal commission report's
> implementation.  Well, the BJP's subsequent rise to power was in
> part occasioned by the split in the ranks of the secular parties
> committed to social justice.  Now that the BJP's fangs have been
> truly revealed, even shortsighted secular politicians will
> overcome their disarray and make common cause for a united,
> secular India.  The selling point of the BJP/VHP politicians seems
> to be there selfless devotion to a cause, however misguided it may
> be.  If only our secular politicians had not let us down by
> betraying the ideals of secularism and the legacy of Gandhiji and
> the freedom struggle by turning corrupt.  If only more of them
> were honest, committed, and sincere.  If only more of us who can
> stay clean enter politics.
> 

Well take initiative and head back to India.

> In the immediate future, the time seems ripe for the creation of a
> "Reform Hinduism" on the lines of "Reform Judaism" which rejects
> orthodoxy.  

I agree that Hinduism needs to be reformed or rediscovered in its
original form. Hinduism has been much distorted and bastardized
over last two millenium. But this happens to any religion, any society
for that matter. Christianity and even Islam are going under reforms.

> Moderate and secular Hindus, like me, have generally

It is for others to determine whether you are moderate and secular :)
Some may find you rather ignorant about Hinduism.

> found it natural not to flaunt  religion or to make a big deal of
> it.  Our Hinduism is in no way inferior for being respectful and
> tolerant of other faiths.  Now that the BJP/VHP combine have
> hijacked our religion and claimed to speak for us it is time for

No it is the people like you who have hijacked HInduism, people like
you who don't understand that Casteism is not part of Hinduism.

> us to unite and show that the BJP/VHP combine speak for a small,
> misguided, perverse, minority of wretches born into Hindu
> families, and that they are a disgrace to our religion.  Let us

I find you disgracing Hinduism by portraying it as associated
with casteism.

> create a simplified Hinduism, where Bhakti and Shanti, devotion
> and peace, are the vital components, not meaningless rituals, not

I agree rituals are far too practiced in Hinduism today. I agree
that Bhakti and Shanti should be emphasized again.

> perverse caste practices, not rath yatras which take our country
> back many millenia.  Who will join me in this endevour?

Pervert caste practices are misunderstanding of Hinduism on your part.
First understand Hinduism and then ask for people to join you.


Alok
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian