From: rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning)
Subject: Libertarian Forum: Fun or making a Difference?
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 18:41:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


I just understood another interesting fundamental assumption of some
Libertarians on this net, with which I strongly disagree. This is:

	To gain political power, we only need change people's minds.

Maybe, but I see enough problems that I don't believe this will happen
overnight.

First, changing minds is very difficult because human minds reflect our
current self-interest so strongly. Our self-interest reflects the
organization of the society and economy.

So, how many lawyers do you think are going to become committed
Libertarians? I claim few, because their short-term interests are
very much tied up in the current legal subsystem of the social/economic
system. Ditto bureaucrats, farmers, large businesses (many CEOs
support Clinton !!), social security recipients, medicare/medicaid
recipients, ...

Now, out of the 10% of us left, I claim it will be hard to get a majority.

So, you can argue that our long-term interests can be used to persuade.
Right, I see people who are real good at balancing short-term interests
against a long-term theoretical possibility all the time. Politicians,
I think, are a prime example. (Sorry folks, this was intended as sarcasm.)

People are lousy at matching their daily behavior against a long-term goal.
Human minds are part of the system state here, with all of their oh-so
human limitations.

OK, we will do it in the long-term, by convincing the young. Then we will
at some time have a majority who understand the truth.

Right, like the VietNam generation has changed America. Bill Clinton, for all
his faults, is indeed a good representative of what we learned in the 60s.
He is an idealist, ... Unfortunately, we have, as a nation/society/economy
learned a lot since the 60s. Like how important an economy is, like how poorly
government handles problems, ... Bill doesn't appear to have learned much
except how to get elected.

Even if Libertarians can rouse a generation to unified understanding, what
will the generation have missed in the subsequent 30 years?

OK, we will wait for the crash to discredit all current theories, then
rally people around the truth. Yeah, maybe, but crashes are chaos, and I
haven't been able to predict outcomes in even minor social organizations
during chaos. For instance, when the game of musical chars begins in startup
company, which VP is next? Hitler and Lenin should be warnings about using
chaos for your own ends. It seems the guys willing to use violence win when
the game becomes violent, which it does in crashes.

One of the things we should have learned in the 60s was the art of applying
judo to a system. There was a very clever Black organizer (name forgotten)
who wrote a book covering the subject. You might remember the incident
of the bean dinner before the Rochester Symphony Orchestra's opening night.

These are the kinds of understandings of systems we need to move this
behemoth system out of its current local, non-optimum state and get it
evolving again. We need to be discussing weaknesses in the current system
and how to use them to pry large chunks of voters/interests away from
the failing system. Pro-choice Republicans are NOT such a group.
ACLU types are NOT such a group. To think they are is to completely
misunderstand the system state we are in.

If Libertarians are just another group of True Believers (and I increasingly
think they are), then this forum is a way to recruit new members and build/
maintain social solidarity. Don't knock it, groups which don't do such things
don't continue to exist.

However, in this case, all of the arguments about how to gain political power
for a libertarian philosophy are empty, by the above arguments. (The Libertarian
party is not an empty vehicle. Need an organization to inherit. However, it
is clear the party can't gain power via normal democratic political process.)

So, I will keep a vote: fun and social solidarity vs getting serious and
trying to make a difference.

(Bet I get flamed for this one !! 8^) )

Lew.
-- 
Lew Glendenning		rlglende@netcom.com	408-245-7488

"Perspective is worth 80 IQ points."	Nils Bohr (or somebody like that).
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchy