From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: SAT worship
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:36:01 GMT
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science

In <92282.225303ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> Linda Birmingham <ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> writes:

>In article <nyikos.718153679@milo.math.scarolina.edu> Peter Nyikos says:       u
>>In article <19ctqdINNktk@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> Ardrienne Regard writes:
>>
>>>We only ask for SAT scores for those folks who *don't* practice rational
>>>thought......
>>
>>>Adrienne Regard
>>
>>Considering how irrational you were in the little exchange below,
>>and also how you keep on crowing over a silly little in-joke about SAT's,
>>I wonder whether you even got far enough in high school to *take*
>>SAT tests.
>>
>>|>> Linda Birmingham (by the way, does anyone know what became
>>of her?)

>She was a casualty of the September Campaign, or as
>the civilians know it, Back to School.

Same as Doug. W'c'm back, as they used to sing to Kotter.

Linda:

>>|>>You can not force a
>>|>>fetus weighing 6lbs and up, through the vaginal opening
>>|>>without causing tearing and subsequent scaring.

Me:

>>|>I know this is false as regards pregnancies other than the
>>|> first.

Adrienne:

>>| You are wrong.
>>
>>This much was from an e-mail correspondence between us.  In a series
>>of posts to talk.abortion there emerged the following:

>I for one have never had email with Mr. Nyikos, yet he
>is quoting part of a post I made - see below.

"Us" refers to Adrienne and me.

Me to Adrienne:

>>~Linda said, "You cannot." No exceptions. Not my wife, not her sister,
>>~not Linda, not Adrienne.  How is it that you read it another way?

>What I said was "Every pregnancy will cause some physical damage.
>You can not compress organs for several months without causing
>some change.  You can not undergo massive hormonal changes
>without causing some metabolic transformation.  You can not force
>a fetus weighing 6lbs and up, through the vaginal opening without
>causing tearing and subsequent scaring.  Then of course there is
>the physical damage caused by c-sections".
><92225.110850.Admn8647@Rye.Vm.Ryerson.Ca>

>Unless Mr. Nyikos now wants to suggest I was implying that all
>women have c-sections or that women who have c-sections have
>vaginal tearing I fail to see his argument and suggest that he
>has fallen victim to responding to statements out of context.

I took you to mean women giving vaginal childbirth have 
tearing.  I used "birth canal," because at that point I could not
recall your exact words, "vaginal opening."

>This of course is one of the inherent dangers of relying on
>memory to base one's point.

I think I did OK.

>As someone who has given birth I find the argument
>ridiculous particularly when espoused by men.  However I do not
>have the time to get into a continent and enema war with
>Mr. Nyikos.  If his wife was able to bear children without
>suffering any of the common symptoms of pregnancy and birth, I
>tip my hat to her.

There was a good bit of suffering.  But you know something?  She
is more pro-life than I am.  Life of the mother is the only 
exception she would allow.

>  She is obviously a remarkable and unique
>woman, particularly considering the following is the standard
>medical (Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary) definition and
>description of pregnancy:

You are confusing description with possible symptoms, that 
occur in some cases but not others.

Like tearing.

[Long list, exceeded only by lists of abortion-related complications,
deleted.]

>(With two exceptions, I suffered all of these)

I'm very sorry to hear that.

>But don't let any of this dissuade you Mr. Nyikos from thinking
>that being pregnant and birthing is nothing but a romp in the
>park, you of course are free to perceive the world in whatever
>way you wish.  I however am more inclined to accept what I have
>read in medical journals and textbooks and my own experience,
>than your version of your wife's pregnancy as a norm.


>Linda
>--
>"I saw my doctor at the checkup six weeks after my baby was born.
>Full of male pride, he told me during my pelvic exam, "I did a
>beautiful job sewing you up.  You're as tight as a virgin; your
>husband should thank me".  The New Our Bodies, Ourselves

Did you know that some women who have had abortions have needed
to have their cervix "sewn up" DURING PREGNANCY to avoid miscarriage?

Yes, pregnancy is no picnic, and prior abortions make it far
less like a picnic.  But pro-choicers throw that all on their
side of the debate, while pretending abortion is just a romp in
the park, to quote your words back at you.

Peter Nyikos
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.politics.misc,alt.sex,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush