HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Faggots and witches (again)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 22:24:10 CST
Organization: The Brewers' Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:

> In article <1992Dec22.175528.3934@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Al
> >This is in a footnote from Robin Morgan "Going Too Far", in chapter
> >"Politics of Sado-Masochistic Fantasies". (P235 paperback ed.):
> >
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >... By calling _themselves_ "faggots," they affirm those homosexual
> >males persecuted in the Middle Ages: "When a woman was to be burned
> >as a witch, men accused of homosexuality were bound and mixed
> >with the bundles of kindling (faggots) at the feet of the witch,
> >and set of fire 'to kindle a flame foul enough for a witch to burn
> >in.' So the enemy has always seen that strong women and gentle men
> >are a real threat to masculine domination." This quote is from
> >Double-F, A Magazine of Effeminism...
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >Can any of you confirm or deny this further?
> 
> 	Sure. It's complete and unadulterated bullshit. No surprise,
> coming from Morgan.
> 
> 						Kayembee

  Oh really? That is interesting, as I have heard this quote before. It
was attributed to a Bishop or Cardinal, and he was writing advice on how
to burn witches. He wrote that homosexuals should be used in the
building of the pyre, for only such men could "kindle a flame foul
enough for a witch to burn in". As to Morgan's conclusion that the
Church viewed Witches and Homosexuals with such hate because they feared
strong women and gentle men is just about dead on.
  With so much flaming going on in this newsgroup, we hardly need the
kind of flip homophobic ember you tossed in above.


--------------------
Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewers' Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@brewich.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443  (WFS) file-request@brewich.hou.tx.us  INDEX or HELP
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruadar, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Movie about Ishi
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 13:26:00 GMT

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

>This is the movie about Ishi, who was rescued by A. Kroeber; Kroeber's
>wife Theodora wrote a very famous book about him.  (I seem to remember
>hearing somewhere that Ursula LeGuin in their daughter.)  His tribe,
>which lived in the general vicinity of Mt. Lassen, was hunted down like
>animals and (it was believed) exterminated by settlers in the area some-
>time around 1900.  He survived the massacre and led a solitary life for
>perhaps two decades until hunger and illness forced him out of the woods.
>He was found by the police in Stockton and jailed (probably as a vagrant);
>Kroeber was called in as a specialist in the Native American languages
>of California to attempt to communicate with him.  It's pretty clear, if
>the book can be trusted, that Kroeber meant well by Ishi, but I have no
>independent information on the score.  Both Kroeber and Ishi were dead by
>the time I was an undergraduate at Berkeley (where all this happened), but
>their presence was still felt in the Anthropology Museum there.  -Robert

Thanks for that..I had no idea that this was based on a true story.

al

-- 
Al Aldrich aaldrich@encore.com 305-797-2335
"Mythology: The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished
from the true accounts which it invents later." -- Ambrose Bierce
From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Single Pagans
Date: 28 Dec 1992 06:11:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Question:  What is a good way for a solitary practitioner to meet
other single pagans socially?  I am tired of the bar scene, and
I am not impressed with many of the people who post in alt.personals
or soc.singles.

With Love and Light,

Antryg
-- 
Ray Henry   cn573@cleveland.freenet.edu

Sometimes with Bill Shankster in piggyback.  :)
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Summary: The Resurrection is the key
Keywords: Orthodox, resurrection
Date: 31 Dec 92 12:48:24 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:

>One other point, something that always seemed odd to me:  there is so much
>emphasis upon the death of Jesus, but little on the truly big event, his
>resurrection 3 days later.  That, to me, seemed the biggest, most important
>event in the life of this prophet, yet in many contemporary re-tellings of
>the tale, this point is most decidely ignored.  Commentary?

Well, considering that the earliest Gospel (Mark) is technically ended at
16:8, with vs 9-20 being added on only later, and that the alleged post-
resurrection appearances may have been invented, it is no wonder that the
modern churches try to play it down.

On the other hand, it is often said that the Roman Church focuses on the
death of Jesus, and the Protestants on his life, but the Orthodox Church
proclaims his Resurrection.  I must admit that the Easter Liturgy, sung
in traditional manner, is more beautiful than anything else I have
experienced.  The Kontakion goes: "Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing
life."  The icon is similarly meaningful.  (These words coming from one
who is not a Christian, mind you.)

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: skyclad ritual
Keywords: skyclad
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 10:37:52 EDT
Reply-To: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

tmd@wixer.cactus.org (Tom Davis) writes:

> In article <BzEn0o.3HH@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) wr
> >I have a question. How many of you work skyclad and if so why do you
> >work skyclad? ...

not me, usually, unless i am feeling lazy.

> >... but am not sure what value add there is
> >to ritual working with no clothes. I am not for doing it just to do
> >it, so I thought I would ask for peoples beliefs or feelings about it
> >here to get a wide range of thought...
>
> I find that it, like the other tools, works mainly as a consciousness
> focuser -- that is, it aims my consciousness toward what I'm doing, by
> making it _really_ clear to my mental layers that "Here is something
> that is out of the ordinary." BTW, in the Hindu tradition, nudity is
> very directly associated with holiness; only those whose lives are
> dedicated to the god[desse]s and those in the process of a religious
> ritual are nude -- but those people [men only :-(] can be nude _any-
> where_.
>
whereas for me, i am naked around the house all the time, so doing a
ritual unclad is no big difference.  so i prefer to have ritual clothes
that aren't used for anything else.  of course, every time i switch
philosophies, i need a new outfit, but that's part of the fun...

                                   -ailsa
                                    who shoudl be packing, or baking,
                                    present wrapping, or ANTHING but
                                    reading the net!!!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            ailsa@ailanthus.com   or   ailsa@wonky.uucp
                                                        ________
I miss the rains down in Africa.                Silence \      / Action
Gotta take some time to do the things we           =     \    /    =
  never have...                                  Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:22:35 GMT

lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
: >: 
: >: Actually this isn't true.  (I know, I know, .... flame away)
: > 
: >Hey, come on. At least post what I wrote - or leave my name out of
: >the attribution.  I did not write any of the garbage written above.
: > 
: >Bill
: 
: Sorry Bill, I didn't even look at who was listed.  I have been off the group
: recently and wasn't even following the thread.  It was just that one comment
: that jumped out at me.  My apologies.
: 
: Tammy the truly sorry for her actions

Don't worry too much about it. Actually, the posting was directed as much to
other people to check their attributions, as it was directed to you.

Bill
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:33:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <1992Dec29.193711.24891@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>
>In article <1hbkceINN3u9@leela.CS.ORST.EDU>, casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU
>(Paul Cass) writes:
>
A discription of a horney kittie on the keyboard.
>
>Uh, Paul . . . that's a female (or one-time female) cat, right?  I hope
>I don't trip over any inter-species phobias, but that's an expression
>of, er, um, interest in, um, YOU know . . . making kittens.
>
>It seems that it's not unusual for female cats to respond to human male
>pheromones.
>
>
>				- - Steve
>

Ah...you know Steve these interspecies relationships never work out.  
Besides my wife would take a dim view of a menage-a-kittie and I am
lousy at sitting on fences and caterwauling.  

You were right though.  The cat in question was female...still is for
that matter...just missing the necessaries.  There is also the "was male"
and he too is missing his necessaries.  He likes to pace people through
the house while staring intently at their feet.  Cats are odd folk.


And then there is the dog. A german shepherd/coyote mix which leads
to some different behavior.  Especially when attending circles...
I guess that is another discussion.>


BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:14498 talk.religion.misc:24501
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: a little mindless bitching
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:58:00 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <2B42511B.1946@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Or a little mindless steam-venting, whichever you prefer.

Welllll, you can sleep on a steam vent... (B-^}
<munch>
>5) I must have heard "nigger" and "faggot" more times out there in two
>weeks than I have the whole year previous out here.  Not that the west
>coast is some paragon of racial tolerance; it sure as hell ain't that.
>But, Jesus, that is crazy!
>
>I will NEVER LIVE BACK THERE.  FUCKING NEVER.  I've only just begun
>telling myself that if people get on my nerves, I am under no obligation
>to hang around them.  My ex-boyfriend was one of those; I hung around
>him because I felt like I should, and I had no right to disapprove of
>him.  
>
>I do now.  I can't stand most people around where I used to live back
>east, and I will never again take up residence there.  I have no idea

Aw, c'mon, Janice. The whole East coast ain't *all* that way ; not even 
all of Philly is that way - of course, I always saw
South Philly as that way (I used to worry about visiting my sister,
who used to live down there, with my long hair in the late 60's/early
70's). Which is why I never even considered living down there.

>what is going to happen when I get married, and that friend expects to
>be the maid of honor at my wedding and she doesn't get chosen.  Not only
>do I not know if I'm going to HAVE a maid of honor, if I pick one, it's
>going to be Sally, my massively flaming-liberal amiga-hermana, as we
>call each other.  
>
We had our common-law ceremony at Worldcon in 88; we'd written our own
words, and my wife's son had a part in it. just the three of us, and
no tossed salad, er, bouquet. (Later that year, we went down to the
county courthouse; down here in Texas, they have this weird "Certificate
of Informal Marriage" - you go to the courthouse, say you want one,
show id, & pay your $25.)

>Ah, well.  I don't want to make it seem like I hated my whole time
>there.  It's always nice to see family, especially my uncle and cousins,
>and I guess friends are okay, even though were I to meet them today, I
>wouldn't be friends with them.  Would that my family could come out
>HERE!
>
Your *real* family is not the family that chance stuck you with, but
the folks *you* CHOOSE. Sounds like *you've* appointed Sally your
"official sister". We've appointed one friend our boy's "official
uncle", and a couple of women his official aunts. These are the
people we care for, who mean something to us, for who & what they
are. The biggest group of my "real family" is from fandom. When
my mom dies late this spring, it wasn't any "trad. family" who helped
(hell, *every-bloody-thing* waited for me to get to Philly); it was
my chosen-family who helped me get there (and a few days later, get
my wife & kid there); it was both of my ex's who helped me get stuff
together & run stuff, and friends who helped it all work. *That's*
my family.

>Blessings,
>Janis 
>
and to you.

	mark


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:22:07 GMT

holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:

>I'd argue that there is no White or Black Wicca, either.  There is only Wicca.

Then there is my position.  Within my version of Wicca, there is both white and
black magic.  White magic is the magic performed at full moon, which is often
a group activity, and it focuses on expansion, fullness, connections, etc. 
Black magic, on the other hand, is performed during the dark of the moon, is
always Solitary unless it is an act of sex magic, and is focused on self--ones
own needs, desires, power.  I should make it clear that sex magic can be white
magic as well.  (But they are different sex magics, the white and the black;
check out _The Wise Wound_ for the differences.)

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Santa Claus
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 09:07:49 GMT

markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
: >
: Gee, maybe we could all agree on a pagan version of S.Claus (talk about
: optimistic!), and promulgate it next year. Gee, I could just see news
: stories, and tear-jerker movies, etc. (And, boy, wouldn't the "Put
: Christ back in Christmas" folks get *irritated*!). Actually, that would
: be a great way to start a REAL old-time religous revival.... And since,
: as I've read elsewhere on news, the Economist says that usenet is a
: conspiracy (one of many), we probably have *LOTS* of power.... (B-^}

Look up Kris Kringle. I am not sure about the spelling. It is from the
Nordic countries.

Bill
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Quilts (was: Re: sowing bags)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:46:16 GMT

In article <lk6h4dINNq79@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.204735.2100@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>> 
>> In article <lk3h76INNr32@news.bbn.com>, dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>> 
>> If I may continue the high-falutin' talk, the problem with the five-
>> pointed star is that it yields a pentagon as your basic building block,
>> and the pentagon won't tesselate the plane.  (For those of you who
>> AREN'T math dweebs and don't have a dictionary handy, pentagons won't
>> fit together neatly to cover a plane.)
>> 
>> Eight-pointed stars are usually embedded in a square, and six-pointed
>> stars in a hexagon.  Both tesselate.
>> 
>> To use five-pointed stars, you'll have to make them part of a design
>> that isn't based on the pentagram.  For example, you can put a 
>> pentacle inside a square or hexagon.
>
>Hexagons, squares, and equilateral triangles are the only REGULAR
>tesselations, but there are other IRREGULAR tesselations including
>things like Escher's fish and birds.  (And wouldn't that make a lovely

Escher's fish and birds are based in triangles and hexagons; they are
not irregular.  He did periodically fill planes irregularly (pun
intended), but usually stuck to tilings that had three or six way symmetry. 

>pieces would all end up with bias cuts, so the fabric would stretch and
>not be as strong.

Just quilt the hell out of it, with a VERY strong backing, like muslin
that has been washed like hell and softened.  Crazy quilts are known to
survive generations, and they certainly have bias cuts. 

Blessings,
Janis
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The meaning of Pagan
Date: 29 Dec 1992 00:26 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec28.235958.3326@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes...

..discussion of meaning of paganism deleted....

> 
>This is, in my mind, a convienient 
>compromise; otherwise, we'd have to 
>call this 
>
>alt.wicca.druids.asatru.women's-spirituality.Gaia-Theorists.Faerie-
Spirituality.Taoism.Hinduism.Lamaism.Shinto.Shamanism.Native- 
Spirituality.New-Age.magic.magick.magik.ritual-magic.natural-magic.
Ceremonial-magic.etc-etc-etc

BRAVO!

Tell you what, all those who don't like the term pagan as a non-christian
can go to the above group and gripe about pedantic points of words
already defined.


Tammy
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Bill Nelson
Date: 1 Jan 1993 02:46 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Bill,

We could go on arguing this point round and round until we bore a hole
in the bandwidth.  It has become quite appearant to me that we speak from 
different wavelengths.  I think, that for the sanity of the newsgroup, that
we simply agree to disagree.

I have seen arguments like this go on and on between others.  I refuse to
be a party to such and refuse to inflict it on others.  I hope that you
don't think I'm copping out.  I just tire of endless arguing over points
that we'll never come to agreement on.  No matter what one says the other
will disagree, because the point that we are arguing from is different.

Can we just shake hands and leave it at that?

Blessed Be,
Tammy
From: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Reply-To: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 23:21:36 GMT

In article <C0325A.5x6@pcuf.fi>, luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero) writes:
>To_article_from: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
> > 
>        Hey, You and Tammy too, I would want you to feel happy for one
>        little thing now: You've converted at least one person who USED
>        TO THINK that the pentagram/pentacle is only the symbol on
>        Satan or whatever Devil -- me.
> 
Thanks.. It does make me feel better, and I'm sorry if I got hostile or bitchy.
I'm still suffering from culture shock, and Montana, though very pretty, isn't
the most tolerant place.

>> Me too.  to have to bury your joy so you won't be persecuted by it
>> sucks. to feel put upon everytime you hear an X-mas carol, to have to
>> hide your anger when you see a Halloween witch in the pamphlets these
>> jerks leave in the fuckin' LAUNDROMAT... I hate it.
> 
>        It really makes me feel bad to read this, I am so sorry for you.
>        I think it would be a lot easier for you in another, smaller,
>        country, like Finland for instance. I don't think you would even
>        be noticed (Of course you'd be noticed, but not like "Who's this
>        satanic evil person?). The problem is that Finland is a very
>        expensive country to live in, but hey, we have thousand lakes,
>        white winters and green forests.
> 
So does Minnesota, where I was born.  I lived in Mpls, which has a good
reputation and lots of neighborhoods where you can't throw a breadroll without
hitting a Pagan or a Magician.  I miss my friends, and the SCA there, and First
Avenue, and all the ethnic restaurants....WWWAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!1
...Sorry, folks...got homesick.  Finland sounds so lovely, and I miss having
lakes and a good museum, and a decent eggroll.



>>> They are a part of my soul. Like my hazel eye
> 
>        What is this hazel eye?
Oh, That....Tammy has hazel eyes, kinda blue-brown-green.  We had a real long
discussion about them once, lots of fun and silly stuff.  I bet she looks cute
with Hazel eyes.
> 
>> and burn crosses on our lawns
> 
>        Have they actually done that?
> 
Better Believe it, Hon.  Even Minneapolis isn't Nirvana, and before I left,
there was a spate of cross burnings on black, jewish, and Pagan lawns.  A
friend I had from Georgia had left her home town because of crosses burned in
front of the dorms at her college, and a Pagan friend killed under what looks
like Lynching circumstances.  There's someone who wants to kill someone
different everywhere.

                                    La Mort.
                   P.S. Thank you so much for cheering me up a bit.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 02:05:04 GMT

I think the question being asked here, and I would also like to see it
answered, is if there is any evidence of Wicca existing before Gardner.
Family traditions are a separate issue, unless these traditions appear
to be related to Wicca.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Faggots and witches (again)
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 09:23:17 GMT


-Not- wanting to jump into the wordbattle, which
is a huge waste of time...

A big part of my objection to the arguments 
presented here is the rather cavalier assumption
that since the histories cited for "faggot"
are false, well, then, the claim that the Burn
murdered Queers along with Witches must also
be false.

This is like trying to deny us the right to 
use pink triangles by claiming that Hitler
didn't kill any Queers either.

For more on Queer victims of the Burn, see
Arthur Evans, _Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture_.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.romance,soc.singles,talk.religion.misc