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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:44:41 -0500
From:         Nick.Carbone@WRITING.UMASS.EDU
Subject:      Reply to A sophistic rhetoric of hypertext?

Mike--

      Yesterday I was reading Toby Fulwiler's "Responding to Student
Journals" in _Writing and Response: Theory, Practice, and Research_, ed.
by Chris M. Anson (PE1404.W6934) 1989.
    In one section of the essay Fulwiler argues that a journal allows
a teacher to see the structure of a student's exploring or restless
mind.  Now I read this after having visited Paul Leblanc's hypermedia
lab at Springfield College (Paul's work there is exciting; I'm toying
with enrolling as a frosh at Springfiel so I can take his writing course.
The lab had everything it but a HoliDeck.).  Paul showed us some wonderful
student works.  I noticed that in his description of the pieces the word
links kept occuring; ways of creating and cuing links in the pieces were
some of what he showed us.  What they also showed  were the ways students could
point the reader/viewer/listener into the web of their thinking, show scope
of their explorations, and yes it seemed to me a matter of intertwined
inventions.
    Flushed by this visit, the following passage from Fulwiler leaped
from the page:
       In other words, the writer's emergin ideas create an organic
    structure, with strong associational and digressive patterns, as
    one shade or nuance gives rise to the next.  Or as Knoblauch and
    Brannon (1984)* put it more globally: "Making verbal discourse [read
    working in hypertext/media, nc], then, is a process of asserting
    connections among the ideas, impressions, images, bits and pieces
    and recollection of research, insights, fragmentary lines of
    reasoning, feelings, intuitions, and scraps of knowledge that
    comprise a person's experience of some subject" (68-69).

*Knoblauch, C. H., and L. Brannon. 1984. _Rhetorical Traditions and
    the Teaching of Writing._ Upper Montclair, N.J.: Boynton/Cook.

I like the idea that hypertext/media, by its linking nature, its ability
to extend and gather, invites more into the argument--it invites feeling
and reason to return to the same scene, to undo some of the false dischotomy
that has separated them,  for example.

nick.carbone@writing.umass.edu
nickc@titan.ucc.umass.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:47:24 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason

From: David E. Schwalm
Good god, John, I hadn't thought of that!

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:04:03 EST
From:         edwards@DUQ3.DUQ.EDU
Subject:      help/software for basic grammar problems

I'm looking for software(s) that could be used in a lab for writers who
have forgotten basic grammar. Assistive software as well as corrective
or tutorial software. I would be interested in what is being used on
either the MAC or IBM software platforms. This is intended for use in
a writing lab situation. Of course, the request to set up this soft-
ware effort comes late in this semester and is supposed to begin next
semester. I would greatly appreciate knowing what's been successful.
Clark Edwards
internet: EDWARDS@DUQ3.DUQ.EDU
tnx 8-)
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:04:32 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              92 11:04 pm

> Car manuals are "reality -centered"?  Bad ones are, I suppose . . . .
> But why is talking about tendencies not inclusive?
>
>
> -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
> |
> |   Gary Beason
> |   Purdue University
> |   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
>
If we promise not to quibble, the writer of the car manual is not
all that concerned with his or her choice of language having an
emotional effect that might persuade the reader to take the goddamn
radiator out before you try to replace the water pump.  This writer
is concerned about such things as how you torque down bolts, which
bolts your torque, etc.  Not too concerned about convincing the reader
that you really should pay attention to torque when you bolt down
the head.  Let the fool learn when the engine later looses compression.

Tendancies are not inclusive as closed circles are inclusive.
People who believed in classical categories (the aristotelian approach)
imagined "natural" categories that people "identify."  Eleanor
Rosche more or less set this notion to rest (helped by Witt. and later
by Lakoff).
irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:22:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: What makes a good exercise?

I think a good exercise should bring into consciousness some rhetorical
act which one usually performs unconsciously or half-consciously. One
way to do this is to write different versions of a text, with some
rhetorical variable changed. I like, for instance, to assign a "process
description" where one must do the following versions (these are all
courtesy of John Hollander):
1. Imply that the whole process or some part of it is disgusting
 a. in such a way as to covertly argue that it is not worth doing
 b. in such a way as to prepare the audience for a problem without
    scaring them off.
2. Provide directions for
  a. an eager amateur
  b. someone familiar with similar processes
  c. someone who is very likely to louse it up (but whom you don't want
    to insult)
3. Describe the process not for someone who is going to do it but for
someone whom you wish to impress about it.

someone whom you wish to impress about it.
4. Distinguish several alternative ways of performing the process, with
some sense of what might make you wish to do it one way rather than
another (the "scenic" route, the "authentic" recipe and the "quick" one, etc.)

One can make up such variations ad infinitum.

John B
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From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: Getting a C
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:33:08 GMT

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.921116081517.480@english.as.ua.edu> Jim Raymond <JRAYMOND@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU> writes:
>David Schwalm,
>    Just to second your observations about different kinds of
>teaching/learning objectives.  One of my best learning experiences
>was aboard a 40-ft. sailboat, where I spent a week with my twelve-year
>mbu
>old daughter, a super sailing instructor, and one other student.
>The
>guy was a great teacher.  We each learned what we were capable of
>learning.  We each left with a sense of our accomplishments and with
>a sense of how much there was left to learn.  No grades.  I can't
>imagine that grades would have done anything but sour the experience.
>    Same thing when I teach legal writing to judges.  I spend a week
>with five or six of them.  They each have a unique learning curve.
>Some make incredible progress in a short time; others--well, maybe
>they'll catch on later.  No grades, though.  I can't imagine that
>grades would serve any useful purpose.
>    Wish we could find away around them in regular courses.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>--Jim Raymond
>  Director of Freshman Composition
>  English Department
>  University of Alabama
>  (205) 348-6488
>  JRaymond@English.as.ua.edu

	How do you feel about written evaluations by teachers?  It's
been done successfully by some colleges at the undergraduate level,
the most notable< I think, being Evergreen State College (at Washington).
I think there's another one that goes by the name of Fairhaven or something.
I also believe the the University of South Carolina gives the student 
the option of getting written evaluations instead of grades.  Anybody from
South Carolina who wants to comment on how this works out?
	For graduate schools, how about the English dept. of SUNY Buffalo?
Instead of the normal courses, the student takes "seminars."  They seem to
have a deliciously mouth watering graduate program except that the faculty
seem to abound with a tad too many people doing psychoanalysis which I think
suffers horribly from one basic assumption that the whole critical method is
grounded on: the ubiquitous and unprovable mighty UNCONSCIOUS.  I don't know
why, but the word GOD keeps popping into mind when I think about psychoanlysis
in literary studies, which makes me heap lot nervous.

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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:28:20 -0500
From:         R_CONNORS@UNHH.UNH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Last (?) thoughts on lurking/Reason.Argggh!

Why can't you dismantle the master's house with the master's tools?
Presumably they would fit the joints and bonds they created.  If the
master drove a screw, what better than his screwdriver would take it
out?

I guess I've just never gotten the worth of the analogy.  The corollary
seems always to be that we must dismantle the master's house blindfold
with chainsaws or try to talk it into falling down.

Bob C.
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:39:52 +0000
From:         rmcdonell%ucsd.edu@SDSC.BITNET
Subject:      Clint on Clinton & Vermont Volunteers

Someone suggested I drop in on this board and showed me how to send the
right message and I did and when I got to my office this morning--wow--107
messages awaited me.  I read through about fifty--with a lot of focus on
lurkers, viditers, wallflowers--before encountering Rhoda-of-Vermont, who
broached--again, I surmise--the political.  For whatever reasons they did
so, i'm sure happy the "people" got tired of fascist spiralling with Ron
and George, but it's hard for me to believe voters did what they did
because they resented being re-constructed by paleo-conservatives
(Reagan/Buchanan/the like) or patrician old-money republicans (Bush).
Nothing much happened this election year to belie the truism that in
election year folks vote their wallets (determination in the last
instance?)  How else explain 2 years ago when 91 percent of real amerikans
played cheering viditers to the bloodbath of iraqi innocents.  And recall
All Gore at the convention, with that extended metaphor of america as his
kid hit by a car:  well, Mr. Humanity had supported wholeheartedly the
decimation of Iraq's infrastructure--a feat that would leave about 150,000
equivalents of little Gore dead within a year.  Then there's Big Bill
joining up with Alpha 66 and signing on to Israel-Right-or-Wrong.  Sure,
though, things will change--for the better on the Big court (if any
positions open up), in terms of policy (fewer people will die who otherwise
would have under CIA Bush), and so forth--but things will also remain the
same and undoubtedly worsen in _other_ ways.  One friend quips that the car
is off the cliff, and the Republicans simply said, "Gee, Bill, wanna drive
for awhile?"  Some of my more optimistic interlocuters suggest that Bill is
hep to the idea that the election is won-or-lost rhetorically, that he's
really pretty progressive and now having won will _act_ progressively.
I'll be pleasantly surprised should that occur, but I suspect not even
Billy can get away with fibbing to the boys who really watch over amerika.
What will tell the tale, right away, will be whether October Surprise,
INSLAW, Iran-Contra, Iraq Gate, etc., proceed and Bush-Reagan et al get
revealed for what they are.  something tells me though that the promised
"smooth transition" means a deal has been cut. ah, justice.
robt
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:34:42 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      re: at-risk students
              92 8:21 am

Thanks for that note, Jim MacDonald, and for the reference.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:34:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of

Martin, can I ask you tu unpack yuor intriguing sentence about complicity
theory and the agreement to disagree?  I don't have your message in front of
me, but you said something to the effect that, given complicity theory (a hell
of a given!), the agreement to disagree confirms that mutually exclusive
positions belong to an articulated web of dominance over the nature of speech.
It's that last phrase, about the articulated web of dominance over the nature
of speech, that I'd like to hear more about.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:21:00 EST
From:         00djfitzstep@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: What makes a good exercise?

John Slatin, in response to (sorry, forgot first name) Woodson's
question, are you implying that one must _accomplish_ some-
thing tangible in a class actiuvity?

What I'd like to know, if the response to my question is affirmative,
is just _who_ accomplishes this thing or this stuff?  The
teacher?  Each student?  All of the students, together?  Each
individual student, or a single individual student?

I honestly wonder--is it enough to learn something for
oneself, or is knowleedge worthless until it's shared and
put to use in some manner or other (I'm rambling).

Anyway, my aim in class is to get people thinking--and
since it's a writing class, I try to point out along
x

t
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:26:19 CST
From:         Judy Boss <boss@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 2 requests for help

Bob:

Since you're just down the road from UNO, you might want to contact Joe
Ziskovsky, who handles UNO's user rooms and their care and consultants,
etc.  He's techmgr@cwis.unomaha.edu.

Judy Boss
boss@cwis.unomaha.edu
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:39:00 CDT
From:         Amanda Corcoran <YKFAC@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Hypertext for IBM

Dave Hogsette,
I've heard that Toolbook is a hypercardish environment for IBM.
I"ve never used it, but that's what i believe.
Amanda Inskip Corcoran Texas Tech
From: jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU ((Jim Porter))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Multimedia and hypermedia
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:08:58 GMT
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              "bwresch@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU" at Nov 16, 92 9:17 am

>Prentice-Hall says they will mail out a free copy to any name I give them.  I
>will put you on the list.
>

Thanks, Bill--I'll look forward to seeing your book!  Jim
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:47:15 EST
From:         David S Hogsette <dhogsett@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Hypertext for IBM

Here at OSU, we have poured much money and effort into developing our Mac labs,
upgrading our hardware and installing new hypertext and synchronous electronic
discussion software.  But in our Machead frenzy, we have neglected our IBM
Windows lab.  So my question to the posters and the lurkers (god bless them) of
MBU is the following:  Can anyone suggest a good network system that supports
Windows and allows for synchronous conversation?  Also, is anyone aware of a
good hypertext software for the IBM?  We have found something called
WindowCraft which is a Windows version of HyperCard, but we are mainly
interested in finding a hypertext version of a Storyspace-like environment.
Any suggestions or helpful leads would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx so much,

Dave Hogsette
CC&L
Department of English
421 Denney Hall
164 West 17th Ave
The Ohio State University
Columbus, OH  43210
(614) 292-3754
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 10:59:36 -0500
From:         eng_allen@EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU
Subject:      lurker, etc.

Smokey,
Thanks for putting all those names in a list.  But what about
window peeper?  Our screen is sometimes a window.  And surely
it qualifies as including all sorts of negative connotations,
as do the others.  Haven't heard one yet that I'd feel comfortable
in claiming for myself.

Nancy Allen
eng_allen@emunix.emich.edu
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:08:00 CDT
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      bibliographic plea

Dear MBUers,
   I am needing to put together a quick, basic bibliography on how literacies
are acquired and I have no ESL people at my disposal.  I have the classic "Nate
article, but precious little else.  Can anyone offer any suggestions for basic
readings.  What we're looking for is a good starting point for understanding the
concepts and if possible, to get a glimpse into the state of the art.  Any help
would be greatly appreciated.

Michael Gos
University of Houston-Downtown
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:15:42 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Andragogy

Irv, andragogy is teaching adults; pedagogy is teaching children. There was
a move afoot in the last few years to replace the latter with the former,
but it doesn't seem to have taken.  Ann/JCC
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:26:03 EST
From:         Karla Saari Kitalong <KITALONG@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Reader, a journal

Reader: Essays in Reader-Oriented Theory, Criticism, and Pedagogy

_Reader_, a semi-annual publication begun in 1976, provides an
interdisciplinary forum for exploring theoretical, critical and
pedagogical practices in literature, reading research, gender
studies, rhetoric, composition studies, visual representation,
and cultural studies. Its interdisciplinary perspective provides
members of divergent and seemingly irreconcilable fields bridges
to explore the numerous junctures that bind us as teachers, critics,
and theorists.  Subscribing to _Reader_ provides each of us connections
to other scholars that can enhance our own work.

Past issues have included:  "The Writing/Reading Relationship:
Implications of Recent Research in Cognition for Reading and
Writing" by Richard Beach and JoAnne Liebman-Klein; "Theory and
Research in Reading: Insights from Socio-psychologists" by Robert F.
Carey; Patrocino P. Schweickart's "Add Gender and Stir" and Elisabeth
Daumer's "Gender Bias in the Concept of Audience"; "A Response Pedagogy
for Noncanonical Literature" by John Clifford; "Reading and Writing
Culture: A Group Memoir" from Joseph Trimmer; and "Reading the Right
Thing" by Joseph Harris.

Fall 1992 will be a special issue on Computers and Reading with
commentaries on how hypertext raises the need for new reading
techniques and theory, and several articles on collaborative
computer-assisted responses to literature.

Spring 1993 will feature responses to Joan Didion's _Salvador_ and
commentary on visual responses to literature.

For subscription information, contact mfsweany@mtu.edu
Current subscription rates are in effect until January 1, 1993.
                                    Elizabeth A. Flynn, Co-Editor
                                    Reader, Humanities Dept.
                                    Michigan Technological University
                                    Houghton, MI  49931
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:41:24 EST
From:         Ann Green <USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      lurkers

Leland,  a good ear sounds particularly felicitous to me (perhaps, given
this medium, a good ear/eye).  Ann/JCC
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:14:53 EST
From:         "(Gary Beason)" <bubba@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              Nov 18, 92 11:04 am

> If we promise not to quibble, the writer of the car manual is not
> all that concerned with his or her choice of language having an
> emotional effect that might persuade the reader to take the goddamn
> radiator out before you try to replace the water pump.  This writer
> is concerned about such things as how you torque down bolts, which
> bolts your torque, etc.  Not too concerned about convincing the reader
> that you really should pay attention to torque when you bolt down
> the head.  Let the fool learn when the engine later looses compression.

Then a lawsuit follows that claims the company/manual did not try to
alert the user that the bolts needed to be tightened.

The idea that "informative" writing is not persuasive has significant
limits.  I will make a distinction between being concerned about
readers primarily, as opposed to the 'subject'--which I think was your
initial claim--being persuasive in 'informative' documents.  The
former is a much broader issue but is not synonymous with or reducible
to the latter.

As someone who just recently had to refer to a car manual (I had a
flat on I-65 at 2:30 in the morning and could *not* find where the
hell they put my jack and lug wrench), I can say that the manual was
not designed for the reader/user.  But in general it was persuasive in
that, being suspicious of manuals, the index led me to believe that
this manual would not tell me just how to change tires (which I didn't
need to know) but how to find the equipment.  The information was not
usable because the writers were trying to accomodate different
audiences--the owners of 4 different vehicles.

But to be less anecdotal and more to the point, usability testing has
shown, at least its becoming a part of documentation writing, that
'informative' writing is not greater attention to the subject than the
audience.

And usable documents depend on the audience and context of use.  So,
informative writing is very audience-centered.  And I think this
side-bar on Kinnevian categories challenges the idea that categories
are not inclusive, that they just record tendencies.  For these
supposed tendencies have demanded rethinking, something my classes in
technical writing work on.




-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
|
|   Gary Beason
|   Purdue University
|   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:53:33 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason

Irv -- Sorry to stutter.  You mentioned, in addition to Rosh, Lakoff.
Is the reference his _Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things_?  If so,
great book.  If not, could you give me a reference? Ron Shook
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