Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: How MS could annoy Apple
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:38:16 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

In article <fg211x#@rpi.edu>  writes:

>Do all the users also have to go through rediculous amounts of   
folderage,
>or just Mr. Adminstrator?

All users, since all use that stuff.  It's an unusual situation, but 4-5  
folders deep is not, even for a home computer.  Consider [Watch out  
everyone; LOTS O' SCROLLING WARNING]:


Apps
	Utilities
		Compression
			Blah
			Blah Blah...
		File Fixing
			Blah
			Blah Blah...
		Etc.
	Desktop Publishing
		(Etc.)
	(Etc.)

Files
	Sean
		Papers
			CS
				CS550
					Paper 1
					Paper 2
					Etc.
				CS421
					(Papers)
				CS330
					(Papers)
				(More CS Classes)
			English...
			(Etc.)
		Sound Files
		(Etc.)
	Jeff
	(Etc.)
(Etc.)


This is in my *home* computer, shared by three roomates.  It's the *width*  
that shows, somewhat, why setting up all sorts of aliases for  
folders/files isn't super efficient, and it's the *depth* that makes  
searching through folders a bit of a pain.  You have to search through the  
folder for the right subfolder, then double-click on it while holding the  
option key, or close the previous window.  But what if your new window  
covered the old one?  Then it's time to move stuff out of the way.

This the Mac was not made to do.  The Mac's design, if you recall, was  
originally not even hierarchical.  It was flat, with an artificial  
hierarchy built on top.  HFS was an answer to growing file systems that  
needed some kind of decent folder system.  But the Finder's  
every-folder-has-a-window design is annoying even in situations like my  
home computer system.  Apple's gotten away from that, with the  
introduction of subfolders showing their contents within a folder (the  
little rotatable triangle thingies).  This is very similar to the concept  
of NeXT viewers showing, in several different ways, directories within  
other directories, all in one window.  The difference is that Apple's  
subfolder system can show several open folders at one time, whereas NeXT's  
only shows the folder and its parents.  This is a difference, I suppose,  
but it's not that major--there are many more similarities.  Apple's  
advantage here is that you can see several folders at one time.  NeXT's  
advantage is that you can manipulate folders with lots of stuff in them  
more easily, which is useful for myself, since I often have fifty items in  
a folder (doesn't everyone?  :)
It's not that big of a deal.

Nonetheless, Sys. 7, I think, shows that Apple has recognized a need to  
accomodate larger file systems with grace.




>>>Is there a way to do this more conviniently that the default I've seen,
>>>namely that you must explicitly ask for annother window to get one?
>>(which
>>>introduces a several-second delay, at least when Ive seen it used)
>>
>>Unfortunately, no.  NeXT assumed NeXT users would never have teeny file
>>systems.  Of course, we all know what happens when you assume.  :-)
>
>Heh heh. (incidentally, what do you mean by 'teeny', more or less?)


Well...after working on a NeXT, I'd say "teeny" means "fewer than 200 Meg"   
:-)



>>Well, it depends on what you do.  For *personal computer* users, you
>>certainly have no need for a *deep* file system, but I find that even  
more
>>than, say, 4 or 5 window-opening exercises gets to be a pain.  And I  
think
>>quite a few users have that situation regularly.  If your work is broad
>>enough, aliases aren't as useful as they would be normally, since you
>>can't have aliases for *everything*.  :)
>
>You can do things like have aliases to folders of aliases, etc.


It's a mess to set up that much.  Aliases have their place (the NeXT has  
them too...it's called "Links"), but there should be an intuitive, easy  
way to access stuff without having to go through that much work.



>Ah, but how big do you think it has to be before you hit 5 folders?
>(I am wondering here if this is constant between systems... somehow
>I doubt it)

It's a question of how much organization you do.  My home computer  
regularly hits 5 folders.  Computers at work hit much more.  Depends on  
what you do, I suppose.  But I'd be willing to bet it's pretty common.   
Once again, as I described above, how *big* you get is a measure both of  
the width of your hierarchy _and_ the depth.



>>  Try using it on a big file system like I described
>>above and you'll understand what I mean.
>
>Hmmm, Ill wait until you answer my above question. If you say
>that ALL users need to wade through all that garbage, I will wonder why.


Because the Mac has an "open", users have no option.  On a Novell network,  
we can at least hide stuff from users.  However, in our situation, the  
data and applications we're dealing with must be common to everyone, since  
everyone uses it.  :-(

Nonetheless, on a Mac's own hard drive, where a lot of organized stuff  
often resides, there is no way to hide folders, etc.  Thus the only easy  
way to set these things up for fifty computers' hard drives is to have  
lots 'o folders.

Does any of this make sense?  I'm trying to get across a concept that is  
better seen than read.  Sorry.



>What Im trying to say is that you probably do not actually want that big
>structure. It would be nice to hide it when you didn't need it.


Well, as I described above, 1) sometimes you don't want to hide it, or  
more often 2) you can't.  It's MacOS, after all.  No protection, hiding,  
etc.  That's a great concept--completely democratic.  But it has its  
problems.

One more thing to consider is that the Workspace Manager was designed by a  
company that had already had extensive experience with the Finder.  They  
might have been trying to avoid copying the Finder, but I doubt it.  After  
all, the NeXT has a trash can. :-)  The only other conclusion I can think  
of is that they saw a reason for the style change.

This isn't really that big of a deal--it really is just a "style change",  
and so somewhat of a moot point.  Anyway, even if we settled on "The  
NeXT's viewers aren't as nice as the Finder's", they're still better than  
the Windows' File Manager.

But that goes without saying.
--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy