From: alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler)
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Ashers!
Keywords: humbug
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:51:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.055100.19628@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

>I believe that most depressed and suicidal people are bright and
>intelligent.  (Bliss in ignorance is the easy way out.)  I also
>believe that they've tried or are tring everything with their
>limitations to correct the situation.  People naturally move from
>pain to pleasure.

     I haven't seen any real studies done showing a vast majority of
depressed people are all that bright.  Some article claim so on a small
number of people or because of the writers own cynicism.  When depressed
and suicidal you are living in a delusional state.  Convincing yourself
that everything is terrible and focusing only on the negative and trying
to believe that only the negatives have any importance.  It is neither a
realistic or healthy viewpoint.  Whether or not an 'intelligent' person
is suicidal, it is not usually an intelligent perception.

>But their intelligence gives them the knowledge to see that there's
>very little to be done in _some_ people's lives.  It isn't a question
>of choice.  The intelligence is there to make the choice; it _is_
>a question of circumstance.

    But it is ENTIRELY a question of choice.  Stimulus - response.  
A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
B: Therefore I must feel bad.

    A better perception might be
A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
B: Why the f**k am I going to let situations outside my control affect
   my emotions?  I can CHOOSE to feel any way I want to.
C: Therefore I might as well feel good.

    Or
A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
B: There are also a lot of ok situations that I can enjoy if I want to.
C: I will get involved in and enjoy the situations that I can.

    Or even
A: There is a terrible situation that I cannot change.
B: There are a lot of people a heck of a lot worse of than I am  (maybe not
   the majority but even 1% worse off is 100's of millions of people)
C: Why don't I stop moping around in this pool of self pity and get over it.

>Correction.  That should read, "You will achieve what you decide to achieve,
>given your limitations."  Some people's limitations are far worse than
>others.

   And some people spend an awful lot of energy convincing themselves that is
true.  Why do you need to believe everything is awful so strongly?

>Not if it's beyond your limitation.  Suppose that I was sterile.
>How on earth can I correct that?

  Why would you have to make something that you can't change the most
important aspect of your life?  Why focus only on the negatives?  Why focus
only on one narrow aspect of life?  It is still YOUR CHOICE what you choose
to focus on as being important (positives or negatives) and it is YOUR
CHOICE how you feel.  (How you react to situations around you.)

>Mary, some people have tried everything within their limitation,
>and nothing seems to work.  And I do mean "try _very_ hard".

   Yeah, bummer.  I know that wall.  When you crash into it, it really
hurts.
   I wish I could tell you ways around it.  I cant.  All I can say is
that there are things you haven't tried.  And there are other ways of
looking at things.  And you can give negative things less importance
and give positive things more importance.  Even though it doesn't feel
like it sometimes you really do choose how you feel and how you react
to events around you.

>No, not true.  We must interact with the world; there's no choice
>in the matter.

   True.  But we choose what we consider important.  We choose how
we react.  And we choose how we feel.  The world is not responsible
for your emotions.

>In Japan, there's an old saying:  shooganai.  It means "It can't
>be helped".  It's not a question of blame; the world is a complicated
>place.  It's just a question of circumstances, ones that were
>not necessarily within one's control.

    If circumstances are beyond your control then why let them be so
important as to control your feelings?  Why not let the circumstances
that you can control be the ones that you react emotionally to?  Or
why not let the positive circumstances beyond your control be the most
important in controlling your feelings?  It sure sounds like it is
a question of blame.  You are blaming shooganai on why you feel bad.
Fate sucks!  So what?  What does that even have to do in the slightest
with how you choose to feel?

>>  If we did that, no one would
>>ever get anywhere.  I believe that The Individual has to aspire to
>>improvement and growth *in spite of* The World's immaturity.

>Not everyone can succeed in that way.  I hope that, at least,
>you can admit that.

   It all depends on your definition of success.  Everyone can sure
live an ok, fairly comfortable life that way.

>But not every one can be like you.  Some people cannot escape their
>circumstances.  Shooganai.

   Nobody can escape their circumstances.  That doesn't mean that
circumstances need to have so much control over you that you are merely
a puppet having your feelings and actions totally controlled by situations
and others around you.  That is hardly an intelligent response.  I'll
say it again.  You choose how you react to your stituation in life.  You
choose how you respond to the actions of others.  You choose how you feel.

-- 
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* Dave                          *               The Alpinist               *
* alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com *            DARE to be stoopid!           *
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