From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: My Heritage
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:37:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 TMA> From: alper@sushi.psych.nwu.edu (Theodore M. Alper)
 TMA> Date: 13 Sep 92 17:16:28 GMT
 TMA> Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL
 TMA> Message-ID: <1992Sep13.171628.12693@news.acns.nwu.edu>
 TMA> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
           -=> Quoting Theodore M. Alper to Bill Carlson <=-
TMA>And yet, note that the generation in the desert were uncircumcised
TMA>(until Joshua circumcised them as adults) -- so would you conclude
TMA>that circumcision may be postponed until well after the eighth day?
TMA>I mean if you only accept the letter (in english translation) of
TMA> the commandment and then supplement that by the behavior of
TMA>characters in the Bible and their treatment as evidence for
TMA>acceptable behavior, how does that story fit in?
   A.  Of course Mishnah permits putting off a Circumcision for a
   month due to medical problems, does it not.
   B.  How does the story fit in?  Quite well.  They had disregarded
   the Mitzvah, (failing to circumcise on the 8th day), and yet when
   it was done later it was acceptable.  They should have done it on
   the 8th day, but they didn't.  Now I ask you, if ones lack of regard
   of the Mitzvah, causes them to not be circumcised until they are an
   adult, - yet this is accepted by HaShem; should ones Jewish parents
   preforming a medical circumcision, (even though not a halachic
   standard one), on their Jewish baby, NOT be regarded as having
   fullfilled the basic Torah Command of Brit-Millah - in that they
   did do a circumcision?  Or is it regarded.  Again, please show any
   halachah that requires a Jewish male to be circumcised again, if he
   was already circumcised as an infant!

 TMA> In any case, many of the stories in Tanach concern characters
 TMA> behaving in ways one wouldn't seek to emulate.
     I absolutely agree.  And I believe that Jewish parents, Believers
     or no, should preform a Brit-Millah in the way of the halachah for
     it.  But, those who don't, while it was not perhaps 100% kosher,
     (if for no other reason than before the 8th day), should not be
     discounted as being invalid.  If HaShem accepted late, and in
     anger, completion of the requirements in Torah, who are we to
     not accept a medical circumcision as being what it is - a
     circumcision, and this completing at least the BASIC Torah
     Command, - though not the specific Torah Command, (on the 8th
     day), and though not according to proper halachah.

 TMA> Again, the question (for me) is just how matters of  law are
 TMA> settled by MJs. Using analogy to Biblical events is an awfully
 TMA> subjective process.
     Analogy is, (to me), a last resort - though a valid one if not
     in contradiction with the Written Torah.  What does one in Judaism
     do when there is no valid halachah, - (a rare occurance to be
     sure :-), on a subject, to reach a decision on a matter that needs
     to be decided today?  - Or what was the "halachah" that the sages
     decided, before it was regarded as halachah, (as such)?  Was it
     not partially "analogies"?

 TMA> I would imagine that MJs are unable to accept the authority of
 TMA> the standard Jewish sources
     Not at all, we frequently do accept 'them'.  The question is more
     of one on what regard we give them - secondary to be sure, and not
     primary, but yes they are regarded.  Didn't Y'shua Himself say
     this when He told His Talmidim to regard everything the P'rushim
     and Torah-Experts/(Sofarim) said, as they - Sit in the seat of
     Moshe. ?  However, He said don't do though according to their
     examples in their daily living :-)  {Loose paraphrase, sorry in
     a hurry}.  But then, even the Talmud states that the P'rushim of
     the 1st century were, for the most part, evil and wicked. CONT....

--  
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