HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: Shotokan Misconceptions
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:53:39 GMT

Bill Burgar made a very good post about some common misconceptions
regarding Shotokan karate, although I suspect that they are actually
true about any and all of the so-called "hard" MA styles.  At about 5
years of training in Shotokan, I'm really just starting to fight
seriously against this common tendency to be overly "hard" at all
times.

My instructor, Mori sensei, has a reputation even among Shotokan
people for encouraging the so-called "Bum on the floor" stances.
Actually, I've more often seen them called "Balls on the floor"
stances, but we want to avoid sexist terms that assume that all MAs
are male, don't we ;-)?  He also encourages, in early training, the
straightening of the back leg in the front stance.  He justifies these
practices as building a base for later training in what Mr.  Burgar
apparently would consider the "proper" Shotokan style.  It seems to me
that his opinion is that, without this early "wrong" training to build
the leg muscles and the habit of going into a strong (i.e., deep)
stance and keeping the back leg straight in that stance, it will be
difficult or impossible to do the techniques "properly" later on (with
the deep stance and straightening the leg only at the point of kime,
as Mr. Burgar says).  Thus, the techniques will not be as strong or as
focused as they would be with the "wrong" training initially.  Perhaps
Enoeda sensei disagrees; I know that, in the seminars (week-long
"camps") I've had with him, he stressed traditional low stances a
lot less and raw speed a lot more than Mori sensei.  Both, however,
stressed not being too tight and too "hard", at least from shodan
level onward.

I completely agree, though, that most people, especially me :-), seem
to "push" themselves too hard and tighten far too many of the wrong
muscles at the wrong times.  For example, Sensei is currently
reminding us every night about this problem that Americans all seem to
have of tightening their chest muscles and pushing their punches.  I
keep getting used as the bad example of a slow punch due to having too
much upper body tightness, so I definitely have to do some work on
making my "hard" Shotokan practice "softer".
	-Steve
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Wing Chung and the privy
Date: 20 Aug 1992 20:20:16 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug20.185418.22523@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>There are just some things that are privy to people in Wing Chun,
>just like there are some things privy to those in Aikido or 
>Kali or any other system you want to name.

Nothing privy about T'ai Chi (as Cheng Man-Ching said, "there are no secrets").

Here's everything you need to know to be a T'ai Chi master:

   +Your mind and body must be perfectly relaxed and responsive.

   +You must use your yi (will) to move your ch'i, and your ch'i to move
        your li (strength), creating jing.

   +Empty what is full, and fill what is empty (T'ai Chi).

>But it is a general attitude in many martial arts that certain types
>of info is reserved for people in the art itself. [...] Whether it is
>anything from a technique, to a theory on how you should pick your nose.

Ah, so we finally get to the bottom of the Sticky Hands controversy...



-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninja@ecr.mu.oz.au (Jonathan_Piers HEARN)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Keywords: Sticky Hands 
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:28:53 GMT

So what exactly does 'Sticky Hands' techniques consist of ?

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ 
= In Xanadu did Kubla Khan		=     |\ |  |  |\ |    |  /\      =
+ A stately pleasure dome decree,	+     | \|  |  | \|  \_| /--\     +
= Where Alph the sacred river ran	=                                 =
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido, (effectiveness)
Summary: Some of my experiences with grappling Judo vs. Aikido
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:34:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes...
>cthong@fraser.sfu.ca (Christopher Thong) writes:
>>i would think that a judoka however experienced would have trouble
>>with pinning or GRAPPLING with an aikidoka no?
> 
>	In my experience it's the other way around: the judoka doesn't
>follow the aikidoka's subtle leads the way she expects and many techniques
>fail.  

Yes, I've seen this frequently, and I've seen another effect;

Experienced Aikidoka tend to have a posture and basic grounding skills
that makes standing throws against them extremely difficult.  Probably not 
what would be considered good practice in Judo, though.  I remember one 
good competitive judoka trying for several minutes unsuccessfully in our dojo 
to throw several of the senior Aikido people.  He sometimes threw them if he 
switched to a tomoe or other sac throw, but they effectively heavy-armed him 
against hip throws and footsweeps because of their posture and balance skills.

They didn't even try to throw the Judoka.  I suspect they would have
failed at least 9 out of 10 times if they had taken the offensive against this
guy.  He was pretty good at standing counters.

When it got to be my turn, I resisted for a while, but then some suicidal primal
instinct took over and I tried to counter one of his reaps, rather than
resist it, and he of course being much better at that out-timed
me and threw me with a 'taio.'  Strangely enough, I was able to yank him
down with me (I think he overcompensated and pulled too hard because
he was used to the other Aiki people being so heavy against him  --  plus
I was about 220 at the time, and he about 160, which helped a bit :-)).  

I actually beat him on the ground with a strangle, which infuriated Sensei 
and drew riotous laughter from the watchers.  A big Aiki guy choking a 
little Judoka in an Aikido dojo.  Not something you see every day.  :-)

						kind regards,

						todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jamesh@castle.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Can anyone be a Black Belt?
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:19:42 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

Firstly to answer the question. In my experience, and from both training
and having read about the matter, I have come to the opinion that having
a black belt means that you have been deemed to be competent in the
basic aspects of the martial art which you have practiced and you're
ready to start doing the advanced training. So in short the answer is
yes. Of course this is an ideal which can only be approximated in real
life.

Secondly, to beg a relevant question myself(and about myself!):

Having been out of training for ~2yrs due to a hip problem I have been
training at a Shotokan club for a few weeks now(as well as trying out
ju-jutsu). I had been awarded my black belt on the third attempt ~ 6
months before being forced out of karate. When I started back, the
instructor requested that I wear a white belt for the first couple of
months back, so I am currently training in the white belt class(this is
not the same club as I used to train in by the way).

Firstly, of course I've found out how unfit I am and secondly it's
obvious that my sense of timing isn't what it was 2 yrs ago. However I
feel frustrated at having to do the same old basics and katas that I'd
been doing unitl black belt(though it's good to do the basics to find
out just where I am at). My question is:

Just when should I start training with the senior grades?(I currently
feel that I would like to do so, and would benefit if I did, right now)
I am not too worried about putting the black belt on again, if necessary
I'll resit it,I'm just worried about when I can get back in to the more advanced
level of training. This is because although I'll regain my fitness with
the lower grades, and maybe my sense of timing too, I feel that both
purposes would be served in the senior section and that after this
initial phase of just getting myself training again,I would like to find
out just how much I've lost in terms of technical ability, and so far I
can do all the heian katas quite easily(a couple of times I have needed
reminding of where to go next,then I knew it again). I feel that if I
were to join the brown/black belts, then it would all come rushing back
to me(and after that I'd really know how much more is needed before I
can justify my black belt again).

James

-- 
  James Hammerton,2nd year Computer Science at University of Edinburgh
  Email: jamesh@uk.ac.ed.castle   Or: jh@uk.ac.ed.dcs                 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ddewar@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (derek.a.dewar)
Subject: Re: Shotokan Misconceptions
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:20:33 GMT

In article <POPOVICH.92Aug12125339@morningside.cs.columbia.edu> popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:
>Bill Burgar made a very good post about some common misconceptions
>regarding Shotokan karate, although I suspect that they are actually
>true about any and all of the so-called "hard" MA styles.  At about 5
>years of training in Shotokan, I'm really just starting to fight
>seriously against this common tendency to be overly "hard" at all
>times.

Yes, I enjoyed the article too. I found it comforting in a way to hear that
other people are trying to overcome the same difficulties in other styles
of karate. I practice Wado-Ryu which is by no means a "Hard" style, and 
recently on our summer course Shiomitsu Sensei pointed out that a number 
of students were far too tense whilst trying to do their techniques. 
Tension in the right part of the technique, makes it powerful, and 
relaxation in the other parts makes it look and feel good.

As for straightening the back leg while in stance ? Well, we don't 
as i'm sure you'll agree that for the leg muscles to become stronger 
from moving in/out of stances, both legs must be bent, thus giving you the 
option to move forwards, backward, or to the side. Locking the leg in all
stances would be harmful to the joints.

As for the depth of the stance, well I'm just commenting on what i've 
seen recently at the Traditional Karate Open Rated Circuit, where most
of the Shotokan kata competitors take a much deeper stance than usual,
but then at Open tournaments most of the katas unfamiliar to the judges
are taken at face value. Sure, the basic principles of movement and
technique can be looked for, but the intricate details of the kata will
not be seen.

Regards

Derek
-----
Derek A. Dewar
AT&T Network Systems Uk Ltd.
Malmesbury, Wiltshire, UK

ddewar@ihlpb.att.com
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Shao-Lin Temple news
Keywords: i'm glad someone is out there!
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:03:04 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Aug15.064239.29129@oracle.us.oracle.com> glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo) writes:
>Japanese Shaolin's founder didn't learn from any Shaolin master.
>Japanese Shaolin's founder got the tablet established.
>Therefore, it is not necessary to learn from a Shaolin master to
>have a tablet established.

I'm wondering to whom you refer here. I had thought that the
tablet presently at the temple that relates to a Japanese
school was for a Japanese T'ai Chi organization (though I
could easily be mistaken; if necessary, I could ask my teachers,
who were recently there and saw the tablets that are
currently installed. They said there are only four for
schools outside of China).

Alternatively, perhaps my memory is faulty, and the tablet
for a Japanese school is for the Shorinji Kempo organization.
If so, don't they claim that their founder, So Doshin, was
instructed by two different Shao-Lin masters? Of course,
it could be that this claim is false, but it's hard for me to
see how you would know this with any confidence. Perhaps
the Shorinji Kempo organization has recently revealed that
they were kidding all along? Or there is some evidence
that So Doshin's stories were fictional?

Or perhaps there is some third Japanese organization or 
individual of which I am not aware, and it is actually
that person or individual who is acknowledged in the
tablet in question?


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject:  kundaline & sinanju
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:17:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.124724.29177@srg.srg.af.mil> dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
}In article <1992Aug10.195402.15617@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}>
}>Two items:
}>1. The Book (by Barnes?) titled _The Kundalini Equation_.
}
}This book (by Steve Barnes) is weird but good.  The main character gets
}into a sort of "applied Chi-Kung" practice, which was originally developed
}long ago to turn volunteers into killing machines.  It affects him physically
}as well as mentally.  I liked the tension created by comparing "good" 
}martial arts teachers to cultists.  

Actually, I bought the book over a year ago.  I was sorta hoping for
comments concerning the synthesis the main character devised, and what
was thought of his "traininng method".

}>2. The series (Murphy & Sapir, now ghostwritten) _The Destroyer_.
}
}Ah!  This is a serialized history of Sinanju.  It is absolutely accurate.
}The only fault I find is that it does not contain enough of Chiun's amazing
}poetry.  A look at the two greatest martial artists in history, and what
}MA's can do besides opening a dojo and teaching.  A true inspiration to all
}of us!

Here, I was interested in comments on the idea of a "sun source" and the
training methods (this series is what introducted me to many of the martial
arts as I searched through factual literature of actual occurences that matched
the extraordinary things done.  Found most of them for the first 50 or so...)

And while Chiun may like Ung poetry, his instructor didn't and his pupil
doesn't!  ;-)
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Hips in aikido
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:18:25 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <mckellar.714240655@sylvan-lk> mckellar@cs.UAlberta.CA (Neil McKellar) writes:
>If I am strong and centered, why did I let the attacker get this close?  

	You executed a striking technique and I moved off the line
of attack *inwards*.

>If I am the attacker, why move in this close if the opponent is still 
>strong and centered?  If our chests are touching, it would be hard to 
>generate any power short of just body checking wouldn't it?  

	I want to move in that close because it prevents almost all possible
striking attacks unless my opponent re-opens some distance, and because
it is the optimal range to execute leverage throws.  You generate your power
the same way as always :-) by putting your hips into it.

>(Don't know.  Are there Judo moves like this?)

	Uh-huh.  It was a trick question.  Most judo techniques work best
from this range.  You can unbalance _after_ entry by attacking the weak points
of an otherwise balanced opponent if you move yourself to the right position.
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Shaolin Lineage
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:22:26 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute


So Doug, Bruce Lee worshippers often cite a path of lineage for Bruce that
goes back to "Wing Chun Hall" etc. etc.  Is this another instance of the 
phenomenon of purchasing one's own Shaolin lineage?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rakoczynskij@gtephx.UUCP (Jurek Rakoczynski)
Subject: Re: ken tori - Aikido
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:56:50 GMT

I don't think this made it out of our site before it went down last
week.  Sorry if it's a repeat!

In article <1992Aug4.235940.25328@cs.brown.edu>, tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:
> 
>  And now back to our scheduled newsgroup :
> 
>  I am familiar with several methods of ken tori (sword taking),
>  in particular those from the second volume of Saito Sensei's 
>  excellent "Aikido - sword/stick/body arts" series. 
> 
>  All of these techniques, however, seem to be from shomen 
>  (straight downward cut) attacks.  [Basically, the idea is to
>  step in and to one side of the sword, grabbing the hilt with
>  one hand and doing something to the attacker with the other.
>  Grabbing of the hilt is possible since proper sword form 
>  requires one hand near the tsuba (handguard) and another at
>  the end of the hilt for proper leverage, leaving a space in
>  between.]   
> 
>  I would like to know about how to deal with yokomen attacks
>  (this is an oblique cut, usually designed to cut the defender
>  from their left shoulder to right hip).  It would appear foolish
>  to try to enter on their right side, since you would be walking 
>  right into the incoming sword.  However, entering on their left 
>  side may allow the attacker to "follow" you with their blade.
> 
>  Although it would appear a sound strategy to counter-attack at
>  the attacker's weak moment, when they are raising their sword,
>  I would claim that it is not realistically possible to do this
>  quickly enough.  That sword's coming down, fast, and you had
>  better not be there when it does.
> 
You've answered your own question here but perhaps I can pointout
something in a differant way.

For a moment, go back to the ideal basics:  Taking control is NOT the
first step but the second step.  The first step being to avoid the
attack by positioning yourself to apply the second step IF required.
To step inside of a Yokomen attack does require an exagerated movement
to be within the circle of the blade.  And YES, it does require a lot
of speed.  It is less forgiving if you make a mistake that if you made
the same mistake against a Shomen attack.

My appologise if I point out the obvious, but I find that practicing
the first part of techniques (eg. defense without taking contol of
uke) leads to better understanding of techniques overall.

>  One technique that seems reasonable is an ikkyo ura on their
>  left arm (basically enter in, grab their left arm and pull them
>  to the ground, taking advantage of their rotational momentum.
>  They cannot hit you since you are controlling their left elbow).

-- 
Jurek Rakoczynski, AG Communication Systems, POB 52179, Phoenix, AZ. 85072
UUCP: ...!{ncar!noao!enuucp | att}!gtephx!rakoczynskij  Voice: +1 602 581 4867
Inet: gtephx!rakoczynskij@enuucp.eas.asu.edu              Fax: +1 602 582 7111
Inet: /DD.UN=J.RAKOCZYNSKI/O=GTE/PRMD=GTEMAIL/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@sprint.com
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Rats and Stuff (dogs too)
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:47:54 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1992Aug21.143822.3270@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
<snip...>
>I view it as my own personal
>failing that I don't have a better way to think about dealing with an
>attacking Rottweiler than to try to slit it from "knave to chops" as it were.
>This is a terribly cruel idea, but I don't have the "spiritual confidence" to
>ponder other options at this point.

<Interesting anecdote deleted>
>
>
>Anyway, here is the dilemma.  I think I did the right thing probably.  

Under the circumstances...yes.
If things had escalated to the point where they were actually beating
him to death, no.

>No
>question about helping Mr. Vestal, but I mean I think *not* fighting was
>probably the best possible scenario.  The problem is that with my MA training,
>I think I would have behaved differently.  I'd have pasted that asshole.
>Frankly I would have enjoyed it.  I would have enjoyed slicing his head off in
>front of his friends and making them eat his ears--sorry, this is how I feel.
>My anger at their behavior is profound.   

Interesting point. I'd say that, if you really looked down into the foul,
nasty pit of your primoridal instincts, you probably felt the same way then -
you just weren't in a position to *do* anything about it. Now you are. 
I don't think you're talking about
a change in attitude so much as a change in capability.

>Now that I am trained, my instincts
>have degraded in other words.  

I don't think so, Peter. Your next sentence suggests otherwise.

>I feel that I must return to an old mental
>state, where I place the highest priority on peace.  

In other words, you want to make a *moral choice* to be peaceful. It's easy
to be peaceful when you're weak - you don't really have a choice in the 
matter. Where's the virtue in that? Being peaceful when you actually
have the capacity to be *effectively* belligerent is a different matter.
If violence isn't within your capability, then you're not really selecting
non-violence - you're just doing the only thing your fear and ineptitude
permit. Skill can't make you moral, but it can give you the opportunity
to be moral. That's a different matter entirely. First you have to eat
the apple...then you actually have a choice.


>Actually I think I still
>honor that value, but I sometimes fear that my ego will get the better of me
>in a similar situation one day, and that I won't do as well.  

I'd rephrase that sentence differently:

"Actually, now I think I have the capacity to honor that value, but..."

It's a somewhat different "spin"...but I think it might really be more 
accurate. 

>
>Life is so weird.
>

Ain't it the truth...

Steve
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido, (effectiveness)
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:58:14 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <cthong.713691852@sfu.ca> cthong@fraser.sfu.ca (Christopher Thong) writes:
>i would think that a judoka however experienced would have trouble
>with pinning or GRAPPLING with an aikidoka no?

	In my experience it's the other way around: the judoka doesn't
follow the aikidoka's subtle leads the way she expects and many techniques
fail.  A good example is nikkyo:  a judoka will instinctively adjust his
line in a way that makes this technique difficult to apply.  The aikidoka
expects to be able to make her opponent extend his grab past his range
of effectivness but a judoka simply won't do that.




Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: gee@col.hp.com (Ken Gee)
Subject: Re: Altitude adaption
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:57:16 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division


>Last week I spent five days in Colorado.  Ordinarily I'm a low-life 
>(Washington, DC *is* at sea level, rougly), and I found the first few days I
>had a low-grade, constant headache, and when I tried to run the second day
>there, I got nauseated.  By the fourth day, however, I had very little trouble
>on a five-mile run.  Was this unusually quick adaptation, or was I psyching
>myself out that second day?  (This was Denver, incidentally, and the fourth
>day was Golden.)  How long does it take for these physiological changes to 
>occur?
  
>-- Laura

	It sound like you experienced altitude sickness.  This is a short term
problem caused by a sudden change in altitude.  Mountain climbers usually spend
a day or two just hanging out at higher altitude before attempting a climb to
adjust to the altitude.  I don't know what the physiology is, but I do know that
failure to take this adjustment time can result in death through pulmonary
edema.
	What I described as a change in blood oxygen capacity is a long term
effect--several months at the least.
	I live in Colorado Springs, about 1500 ft higher than Denver.  Some
friends who visit have immediate problems with exertion at altitude and some
seem fine for a while before it gets to them.  Rocky Mt. Aikido Summer Camp
used to be at 8000 ft.  Watching the sea level folks struggle to breath was
always a perverse form of entertainment.

Ken