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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:37:56 CDT
From:         Lonnie Schubert <S096556@UMRVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Existence of Concepts (was Poverty)
              10 Apr 1992 21:06:08 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

On Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:06:08 GMT Dr Nancy's Sweetie said:
>Lonnie Schubert replied to my earlier article, but the reply seems to be lost
>in confused sentences.  These topics are easy to scramble without careful ...
  Sorry.  I'll mention that I sent a general statement to the list Re:evil.
I mention it, because sort programs don't always put post in the right order.
It should precede this one.

>> I believe God was acknowledging the existance of evil by saying that He
>> allowed its existance, and thus by default only (being the only possible
>> responsible party) "created" it, and the only reason He has held back His
>> absolute holiness and goodness from destroying evil, is because that would
>> have destroyed so many of his beloved human creations who were (and are)
>> clinging to that evil and rejecting God.
>
>I think this is right, but because of the way it is stated it is wrong if read
>literally.  [.....]
   I meant it literally.  I have reread it and still believe it.
Note that there is only one Hebrew word translated "create" or "created" in
the KJV.  Moses and Isaiah used the same word.  I see no reason for supposing
either to be anything other than literal.

(quick addition: On judgement day, those who died clinging to evil and
rejecting God will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with evil.
(see Rev. 20:14 & 15, 21:8, and others, including words of Jesus in gospels.))
   If you have studied this and thought it through and disagree with me, then
I say, good.  However, if you believe I am "wrong", I would like to discuss
this subject with you further.  I hold these beliefs because I believe they
are quite scriptural, and they are necessary for a consistant theology and
philosophy of God and the universe -- for me at least.

>[.......]  Evil _does_ exist, but
>NOT as a physical object.  The best way I know of to keep one's writing clear
>on this is to use evil _only_ as an adjective.  Try it, you might find it
>helpful.
I agree with the 1st sentence, but to explain my definition, I must use evil as
a noun.  I could not express myself using evil only as an adjective.

>I deny that evil is self-existent.
Why?  Do you have a scripture or some other reasonable evidence?

>If there were no sentient beings around,
>there would be no evil.  Evil can only exist if some self-aware creature does
>something intentionally harmful.  If there were only rocks, and no people,
>could anything evil happen?  How would you know?
1st sentence: I agree.  However, even if there were no created sentients,
God IS.  Thus the argument breaks down.  If God did not exist, NOTHING
would exist.
2nd sentence: I disagree.
Most of the membership will be familiar with the colloquialism, "The devil
made me do it."  It implies that the devil is coersive.  This is true, but
from were does our adversery draw coersive power.  Does he generate it?
I say, absurd.  I assert it is the coersivity of evil itself.  Sin is
attractive (at first glance).  Why would God grant us the power to overcome
evil and sin if it was merely something that had no existance at all without
us?  If evil exists ONLY in the actions of people, if it is completely
dependent upon the human nature, then why is it not eliminated from the
life of the born-again, recreated, Holy Spirit filled individual?
Paul said, "What I want to do, I don't; what I do not want to do, I do."
Folks, that was Paul.  The fellow of whom Peter said, "People wrest his
words as they do with all the scriptures." (II Peter)

>Literally speaking, God does not "allow evil to exist" -- God "allows people
>to do evil". [] The reason I think God did not inspire the Biblical writers to
>literal exactness is that literal exactness takes a lot of words and doesn't
>help to live as you should.  Most people know when they've sinned regardless
>of whether they ever think about sin as an object or an abstract concept.
>[.........]  The problems start when we try to read statements about
>evil (like the one from Isaiah) literally.
> [.....]
>    Arguing about which philosophy is right, instead of focusing on the
>    message of the Gospel, is just a waste of time.
>
>Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
>"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know
> they produce quarrels." -- 2 Timothy 2:23

Darren,
I disagree with you closing comments.  I have left quoted that which I find
most objectionable.

I beleive most of the Sola Scriptura folks would agree with the following
guideline: Interpret a given passage of scripture litterally until you find
good (& scriptural) cause to interpret it as figurative.  Also, do not
discount figurative passages.  They are still true in their figurative sense.

If you recall my post concerning the why's of striving to know truth, you may
understand my position better.  (Post subject heading had Becky's name in
it, as it was in response to her post.  One of my points was that, as Becky
pointed out so well, our children deserve our being as right as we are able.)

Also, I desire to discuss the "rightness" of my beliefs and philosophy
for the reason that I may in fact be wrong.  I never want to become so
convinced that I am right that I will refuse to look at evidence that
contradicts my position.  If someone shows me (and convinces me) that I
am wrong, I want to be the first to admitt it, and I want God to be the
first to hear it.

The statements I have made about evil are essentially my statement of my
faith in God and the Universe He has created.  "God is in the proccess
of destroying the real entity evil.", me.
III John, "Jesus was made manifest here on earth to destroy the works
of the adversery." (paraphrase)
I do not believe that the discussion regarding evil has been stupid or foolish.
     Lonnie Schubert
PS I will have set to NoMail by the time this gets to the list.  Please,
send any replies to me, to me personally.  Again, I would also like to
receive a copy of any essay type posts that anyone might like to share.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU