From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:48:20 GMT

In article <CORWIN+.92Nov18123739@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU> corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier) writes:
	>The problem I have with Steve's comment is the implicit assumption
	>that lisping is a sterotypic gay behavior.

God, I don't believe this.  C'mon, Scott--that's not MY assumption,
I was using that as an example of behavior which might be called
effeminate by someone looking to eradicate it for some demonic
reason known only to CMU bureaucrats.

	>Steve and others seem to
	>be arguing that there are a core group of mannerisms, such as lisping,
	>swishing when you walk, etc which make you "effeminate" or "act gay."

Um, if effeminacy doesn't describe objective behavioral attributes,
what _does_ it describe?  _I_ didn't say that had anything to do with
being gay.  YOU were saying that people with these qualities were being
singled out for having these qualities.  Or were you?  After a paragraph
like this one of yours, I don't have the faintest idea what point you're
pushing.

	>It seems that they are arguing that gay actors must overcome being gay
	>in order to be real actors.

Huh?  What IS your point?  Are you saying these people behave effeminately
or not?  How would someone "act gay" in any other colloquial sense?

	>First, I don't beleive that there are a core group of behaviors which
	>all gay men have.

Wow, what a concept.  I think most people here were assuming that.
Including me.  OK?

	>The Theater Week article mentions a number of times
	>examples when men were told they were acting too effeminate on stage.

Um, I hate to say it, but doesn't this indicate that "being gay"
had nothing to do with it, or do you think that "effeminacy" is
simply a code word?  But why should they care is someone is gay
if it doesn't affect their performance?

I have this strange feeling I'm retracing this entire discussion
from scratch.

	>Our college paper asked someone in Drama if an actor had ever been
	>told they are acting too butch.  This person mentioned a production of
	>Torch Song Trilogy where the actor playing Arnold was told he was
	>being too butch.  I believe this example to be homophobic.  It
	>perpetuates the stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

But, Dollface, Arnold in _TST_ is supposed to be employed as a female
impersonator.  The whole play only makes sense if he is effeminate.
I suppose it would be interesting (albeit unimaginable) to have a butch
Arnold, but it would be on the avant-garde.

	>I believe
	>that just as African American's object to portrayal's such as Aunt
	>Jamima and Buckwheat, gays and lesbians should object to negative
	>stereotypes about our community.

Tell it to Harvey "Swish" Fierstein.  He wrote the damn play.
Um, pardon me, but I thought gay liberation was started by a
bunch of drag queens.  Now they're "negative stereotypes"?
You're lucky someone doesn't smack you with a spike heel.

	>I beleive this to be the issue which is occurring at CMU -- not
	>whether actors can act.

You believe WHAT to be the issue?  Is is any wonder that there's confusion
here?  You can't even describe what's going on clearly.  In this thread
you haven't exactly been a walking testament to the wonderfulness of a
CMU liberal education.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss