From: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Coffin Seminar Creation Seminar
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:04:58 GMT
Reply-To: colby@bu-bio.UUCP (Chris Colby)
Organization: Biology Dept., Bost

In article <1992Apr06.162833.28517@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com> ford@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com (Dan Ford) writes:

>He also quoted 
>George Gaylord Simpson (again paraphrased since the quote was on a slide 
>that was flashed on the screen for only a few seconds, and I couldn't 
>write it down verbatim): "The sudden appearance of life forms in the 
>Cambrian is not only the most puzzling feature of the geological record... 
>but also the greatest apparent inadequacy of evolutionary theory." (No 
>reference was given).  Coffin concluded this section by saying that 
>evolutionists must take it on faith that these evidences will someday 
>be found.

	So in other words, Coffin is criticising a biologist for being
skeptical? Evolutionary biologists hope (not "take it on faith") that
more insight will be gained into the Cambrian explosion. Some progress
has been made (pre-Cambrian animal fossils have been found), but it is
likely that it simply happened too long ago, and that a completely
satisfactory picture of Cambrian evolution will never emerge. That's
just life.
 
>4. Showed slides of drawings of the cross section of turtles.  Showing how 
>the shoulders attach inside the shell (which he claims is the analog of 
>the rib cage in mammals).  He claimed we should be able to find fossils 
>leading up to this unusual and unique design, but of course (according to 
>him) none are found.

	Recent fossil finds have shed light on the origins of turtles.
It was cover story on Nature. (I'll e-mail you the ref since I've
posted it here before -- and I don't have it handy right now).

>5. Showed a slide of a bat that appears to demonstrate that bats have 
>changed very little in the last 10 million years or so.  He then quotes 
>George Gaylord Simpson as saying that evolution of the human lineage would 
>take 10 billion years at that rate of change (no reference was given).
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It doesn't bother me anymore that creationists want to believe
in their own little fairy tale world; but the tactics these scum use 
never fail to make me want to puke. George Gaylord Simpson was a
very famous evolutionary biologist and would NEVER have lended any
credence to garbage such as the above. To quote a dead guy so that
he appears to be supporting a side of an argument that he would never
have in life is despicable. You truly have to be devoid of morals to
pull something like that. (I thought creationists argued that teaching
evolution led to a decrease in moral fiber; you don't see evolutionists
pulling this kind of crap.)

	But, lets take a look at his (paraphrased) quote anyway. I
have underlined the important part. Obviously, Simpson was documenting
that morphological change did not occur at the same rate in every 
lineage. Why should the rate of morphological change in bats constrain
the rate of change in humans? Bats are well adapted to their
way of life and don't need to change.

>1. The flood caused the deposition of virtually the entire geological 
>record.  He discussed the basic "hydrological sorting" argument.  
>The order he claimed is reasonable by hydrological sorting is:
[deleted]
>He claimed that the order above matches the order in the geological column.

	What about footprints on top of some layers? Creationists have
even tried to use footprints as evidence that humans and dinosaurs
existed -- they can't even see their own "model" is inconsistent with
itself. What about the distribution of flowering plants?

>3. Despite the agreeable nature of his audience, at the end he glowingly 
>complemented the audience, claiming this had been an extremely competent 
>audience.  He claimed that it is very rare that he finds an audience 
>that asks such technically advanced and challenging questions.  
>   Good grief, if this is a demanding audience, I wonder what an average 
>audience is like?

	Jeepers, what a weasel (apologies to my furry friends, it's
just a figure of speech). I hate people who just kiss ass to get 
people to agree with them. Also, he has obviously never perused
t.o. where I can honestly say we have THE FINEST DAMN GROUP OF
POSTERS OF ANY BOARD ON USENET -- BAR NONE!!! 8-)

Dan,
	Thanks for going to this forum, asking a tough question and
posting this info to t.o.

Chris Colby 	---	 email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu	---
"'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined,
resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'"
 	--Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos"

Newsgroups: talk.origins