HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Death Penalty
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:48:27 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

In article <Jan.7.01.13.41.1993.6018@geneva.rutgers.edu>, jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris) writes:

> Second, while the Law says we shall not murder, it does not prohibit
> all killing (i.e. self-defense, executions).  God says that anyone who
> murders shall lose his own life.

I thought the commandment was a rather straight forward "Thou shall
not kill".  I remember nothing in the new covenant telling me I can
kill ... it seems to say a great deal about love and forgiveness
however.

> However, death is the required consequence for murder.

Can you explain this last statement "death is the required consequence
for murder"?  Do you mean all murderers must be executed or else???
From: shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: ?'s
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:27:14 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr, Calif.

Some questions:

1) The concept of eternity; I mean God has *always* existed. I find it
   hard to imagine there being no beginning.
2) If God is unchanging, why did he seem so much more harsh in the OT?
3) On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him. Didn't he have
   total faith?
4) At this time there *is* no #4. :^)

Thanks in advance for all responses!

Rick

[I'm sure others will have comments on some of these issues, but let
me point out that Jesus' words on the cross are a quotation of Ps 22.
I think we should take seriously the literal implication that as part
of bearing our sin, he experienced the alientation from God that is
the price of sin.  However I also think he had in mind the whole
Psalm, which combines a feeling of abandonment with confidence that
God really does care and will rescue the writer.  --clh]
From: IZZYEJ2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Hansel Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Missionary Information....
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:08:24 GMT

Does anyone have any information on organizations involved in Missionary work
(Both Long & Short Term).   Could someone E-Mail me either addresses or phone
numbers of organizations involved in missionary work.  I am considering it
for myself and would appreciate some more information.

Thanks

     :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
     : Hansel Lee         : izzyej2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu :
     : (310) 794-5375     : izzyej2@uclamvs.bitnet   :
     :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Do We Need To Pray????
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:28:13 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <Jan.3.21.44.04.1993.28273@geneva.rutgers.edu> labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com (Joel Labson) writes:
>I'd like some discussions on this....
>If God knows what we need, don't you think that He will just give it to
>us automatically without praying for it??????
>I think we just need to pray for what we want...NOT what we need....??

If God is omniscient (knows everything) as most Christians in my
experience seem to think (covering my rear there ;) then he not
only knows what you _need_ - he knows what you _want_.

So if you don't need to pray for what you need because God knows this
already...you also don't need to pray for what you want, because God
knows this already.

Why pray?  Well...

he said to.
he wants to have a relationship with us; communication is important
   in relationships.
it's an act of love. if we pray becuase we want or need something
   it shows our trust in God and his love for us; if we pray to communicate
   with God or as an act of obedience, it's love for God; if we
   pray out of concern for others, it's love for them.
he gives us the ability to affect "what happens in the world"...for
   example, the Last Supper didn't just "appear" on a wall, Leonardo
   da Vinci painted it. COBOL didn't happen, Grace Murray Hopper et al
   created it. At pentecost, people weren't converted by osmosis - they
   believed because of the preaching of Jesus' followers. Some things
   we humans can "do"; others we can ask God about. CS Lewis compared
   it to a schoolmaster telling students that "such and such is 
   permitted due to the fixed rules of our school; but such and such
   other things are too dangerous. If you want to do one of these,
   come to me in my study and talk it over. And then...we'll see."

Of course, one might wonder why God lets us have an affect at all
- that's another question :>

-jen
From: Bryan.Whitsell@cs.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ?'s
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:59:49 GMT
Reply-To: whitsebd@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman

In article <Jan.7.01.27.14.1993.6107@geneva.rutgers.edu>  
shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum) writes:
> 1) The concept of eternity; I mean God has *always* existed. I find it
>    hard to imagine there being no beginning.
> 2) If God is unchanging, why did he seem so much more harsh in the OT?
> 3) On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him. Didn't he have
>    total faith?

1) Although the small human mind can not full comprehend every thing in  
the Bible, we can rely on faith in God to overcome these areas of lack of  
comprehension.
2) I had just recently been wondering why people think that he is.  I use  
to think this way also.  There are numerous examples of God giving people  
a second chance.  
3) see clh comment
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: praying for leaders
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:14:28 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <Jan.5.03.24.25.1993.923@geneva.rutgers.edu> mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>In article <Dec.25.04.21.25.1992.17445@geneva.rutgers.edu> martin@scs.carleton.ca (martin chidyausiku) writes:
>>I have noticed that there is a general misconception held within the
>>christian communy that being right-wing or to be sympathetic with such views
>>is a sign of being a strong christian.
>
>This message shows signs of generalising from the USA to the
>rest of the world, and from certain sorts of Christians to
>Christians in general. It would be better to say "widely-held"

It also seems to be a misconception that was spread in the
communist world.   A few years ago, when I was studying German, we had
a visiting lecturer from Leipzig, in the (then) GDR.  One day we were
talking about politics and economics, and he said that he supposed
that since I was a Christian I would also be a Conservative.  After
I'd got over my astonishment, we had quite a long conversation about
why I believe Social Democratic (used here in the European sense) are
economics are more compatible with Christianity than Conservative
economics.

Hope this is of some interest

Alison
From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Protestant convent?
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:42:15 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <Jan.6.01.42.50.1993.2706@geneva.rutgers.edu>, xkkreit@ericsson.se (Erik Reitsma TX/UB VL4031 94009 ) writes:
|> Hello there!
|> 
|> I have a question from a friend without net access. This is the question:
|> Are there any protestant convents, anywhere in the world? If so, could you
|> give some information about those?
|> Any E-mail on this subject to xkkreit@brazil.ericsson.se would be
|> appreciated! Thanx in advance.
|> 
|> Kind regards, 
|> Erik

There is the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary (Evangelische
Marienschwesterschaft), the Lutheran group led by Mother Basilea Schlink.
They're based in Germany, of course, but I don't know if they're present in
*.se.  (Their US house is in Arizona.)

Good luck--
-_RC
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Apostle Thomas in India?
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:39:43 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

Check out the Malabar (Syriac) rite Catholics around Goa - also known
as St. Thomas Christians
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dodd and Gandi
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:13:29 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

In article <Jan.11.03.56.05.1993.21500@geneva.rutgers.edu>, eng10524@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAMASWAMI VISHWANATH) writes:
|> 
|> 	This is exacty my qustion - what is the meaning ofthe fact that
|> presumably Gandhi would never go to Heaven just 'cos he never accepted 
|> Jesus . What then is the reward for all the unselfish deeds that he did
|> throughout his life ? He  will still go to hell just cos he did not do
|> what Dodd did ? This logic is perplexing and leaves me with very little
|> satisfaction in Christianity that has no room for rewarding those who
|> really were exemplifying and strived for the good of everyone ; rather
|> those who can 'repent' and accept Him as God can be ofrgiven totally ?
|> WHERE then is the incentive for people to be good rather than just use 
|> Christ as a crutch and go to Heaven ? Does this also not mean that
|> CHRISTIANS can be in a sense seen as selfish in that whatever good they
|> do it is boarne out of their desire to ultimately escape the dungeons of
|> hell rather than out of true need to be good to their friends and so
|> forth ?
|> 
To say as a Christian does that all are saved through Christ does not
necessarily mean that they positively affirm Christ.  God shares his grace as
He wills.  Those who chose God rather than chosing against God are redeemed
through Christ.  Christ paid the price for all (that is ALL) including those
who lived before him and hence had no possibility of accepting him.  The
incentive to do good is love - a loving response to a loving God, a desire to
help God in the manifestation of His Kingdom on Earth.  I,too, have problems
with the Christians who act only out of self-interest; I sincerely hope they
develop spiritually beyond kindergarten and act out of love not fear of punishment >
From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Death Penalty
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:51:40 GMT
Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO

In Article: 17663 of soc.religion.christian,
jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris) wrote >>

>> Second, while the Law says we shall not murder, it does not prohibit
>> all killing (i.e. self-defense, executions).  God says that anyone who
>> murders shall lose his own life.  We are expected to exact such punishments
>> on those who are guilty.  To attempt to dodge this distasteful task
>> with claims that it's wrong to take a life, to judge, is actually an
>> avoidance of our own responsibility to follow God's commands.
>>

Can you cite a New Testament (Christian) passage that supports this?

>>                           However, death is the required consequence
>> for murder.

Can you cite a New Testament (Christian) passage that supports this?

Although Jesus knew of his own crucifixion and death, He did not instruct
His disciples to retaliate against His tormentors.  Nor did the disciples,
when facing their deaths, instruct their followers to retaliate.  Death
for death (as in eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) is Old Testament
(Jewish) Law.  Christ's words and example is the prevailing Christian
law as far as I'm concerned.  Otherwise, to invert a cliche, it is
"don't do what I do and don't do what I say", which demeans His
message altogether.  I believe that the foundation of Christ's message
is mercy and forgiveness.  Those who can't practice that, will be judged
in kind.  When Jesus encountered the mob about to stone a woman for
prostitution, did He join them in the punishment?

IMHO the 4th century church made a questionable compromise with the
Roman Empire with respect to secular power, that has created confusion
to this day about the issues of death for death, self-defense, warfare,
etc.  The Romans managed to convince the church to surrender its
influence over secular affairs, in exchange for "legalizing" the church.
Christians don't need a "secularly legal" church - the church itself
has been and always will be legal.  Anyway, this compromise permitted
the Romans (and all "Christian" governments since) to compel young men
into military service under the euphemistic guise of self-sacrifice and
honor.  These things do not win wars.  Killing and destruction win wars -
to Satan's great delight, no doubt.  Every war and every killing leaves
dangerous seeds waiting for the fertile soil of retaliation.  The history
of the medieval RCC using the threat of excommunication to convince the
monarchs of Europe to send young men off to kill Arabs during the "Holy"
Crusades turns my stomache.

In my personal life, I try to keep the beast tamed.  When another person
injures me, I feel the ugly urge to retaliate, but by remembering Christ's
teachings and example, and through prayer, I usually overcome the temptation.
I feel guilt when I don't.


Peace,
Gregg
From: jnorris@carson.u.washington.edu (Joel Norris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:04:09 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <Jan.5.03.44.49.1993.1320@geneva.rutgers.edu> rainbow@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Donita Thompson) writes:

>Imagine the 3 little dead boys' faces when Dodd shows up at the
>Pearly Gates!
>

I've been following this story myself. I think it is quite wonderful to
consider that Jesus went to the cross for even those such as he. There
have been many others. Consider John Newton, former slave trader and
writer of the hymn, "Amazing Grace". After all, it is only by the grace
of God that we are not the same. I know that if my own strength were
required to keep me on the path of righteousness, I would eventually
stray as far as those two did. Experience has taught me nothing is
greater than the power of sin except for the grace and mercy of God.

Joel

--
Joel Norris			"The fear of the LORD
				 is the beginning of knowledge."
jnorris@u.washington.edu	 -- Proverbs 1:7
From: dcasson@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Dan Casson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Walter Martin (was: Help For Jehovah's Witnesses)
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:56:38 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <Jan.6.02.22.01.1993.3054@geneva.rutgers.edu> jwindley@asylum.cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) writes:

>This is especially acute in Martin's treatment of Mormons.  Nearly all
>the evidence for his conclusions comes from journals which were never
>intended nor accepted as sources of belief.  In fact, they have been
>characterized since their publication as speculative and not
>representative of Mormon teachings.  Yet Martin based his conclusions
>on this material.

Hi Jay,

	I have read on this board the claims of Walter Martin being scholarly
irresponsible and basing conclusions of shaky evidence.  Can you please give
some specific examples to which I can follow up to verify myself.

Thank You,


-- 
===========================================================================
Dan Casson			Phone: (818) 393-1284
Jet Propulsion Laboratory	Internet: dcasson@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov	
4800 Oak Grove Drive
From: daveshao@leland.stanford.edu (David Shao)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:57:10 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <Jan.5.03.44.49.1993.1320@geneva.rutgers.edu> rainbow@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Donita Thompson) writes:
>Did anyone happen to see this morning's "Good Morning, America"
>starring Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd???  Amazing story. From
>the time he was 15 years old, this man has been molesting little
>children. Now he's condemned to hang tonight for molesting and
>killing 3 poor little boys from our very own Northwest.
> 
>What really blew me away this morning during his interview was
>when he said that "because I have found Jesus, I get to go to
>heaven." WHAT??!!!
>
>Imagine the 3 little dead boys' faces when Dodd shows up at the
>Pearly Gates!

I wouldn't worry too much about whether Dodd will be judged to more
deserving of eternal life than say Gandhi.  Dodd has also publicly
stated that if he were to be imprisoned he would used any means
including killing prison guards to escape, and that if he were to
be freed he would resume killing children.  He may say that he has
found Jesus, but it is clear that he does not believe in the power
of the Holy Spirit to actually influence him to change his life.
So he has actually rejected Jesus's offer of redemption.

At least Dodd is accepting his punishment under the law.  In this
area he is acting in a more Christian way than others who seek to
have sentences reduced just because they have found Jesus.  We
read from Scripture that the thief hanging on the cross who accepted 
Jesus acknowledged the justness of his punishment as part of his
final confession.  And he was a thief, not a child murderer like Dodd.
Death penalty opponents should keep this in mind.
From: holly@csn.org (Dawn E. Bergacker)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Seder/Passover meal/Maundy Thursday suggestions
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:34:31 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

My church (Presbyterian USA) is thinking of holding a Seder for Maundy
Thursday service.  I'm on the worship committee, and I'm looking for
hints on how to present a fun and meaningful Passover meal.  Does
anyone have any experiences to share?  The Seder I attended years ago
ended with lamb stew.  Does anyone have a large recipe for lamb stew?
Thanks!

[There has been controversy here in the past as to whether it is a
good idea for Christians to have seders.  You might want to consider
how you would feel about a non-Christian group holding a communion
service...  I think there are reasonable arguments for it as well.
But if you are, and are going to call it a Seder, I would suggest that
you consult with some Jewish friends, and try to make sure that you
follow Jewish procedures.  Otherwise, I'd suggest that you simply
indicate that you're trying to come somewhat closer to the way Jesus
would have celebrated the Last Supper, but avoid actually saying you
are going to have a seder.  --clh]
From: ae598@yfn.ysu.edu (GL Jeffries)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Death Penalty
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:52:08 GMT
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net


	There are no less than ten Hebrew words translatable as "kill,"
	"murder," "slaughter," "slay," etc.  It i, therefore, important
 first to know which word means what and in what context of Old
	Testament Scripture.

	The word "kill" used so often by those in opposition to the death
	penalty, is usuallyrelated to the context of the decalog, or the
	Ten Commandments (Exodus 20).  The word there means "premeditated
	murder."  It does not apply to warfare, as there is another word 
	for that.  There is a specific word for "execution" (tabach).  To 
	execute a human being for havi	execute someone as an act of the state is not Biblically viewed as
	premeditated murder.

	The right of the death penalty, however, comes long before the Law
	as given tMoses.  It is found under theaic Covenant in Genesis
	9:6 and is an "everlasting covenant."
From: balsamo@stargl.enet.dec.com (Antonio L. Balsamo (Save the wails))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:50:42 GMT
Reply-To: balsamo@stargl.enet.dec.com (Antonio L. Balsamo (Save the wails))
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


   From: rainbow@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Donita Thompson)
   Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
   Subject: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
   Date: 5 Jan 93 08:44:50 GMT

   Donita,

       Have you ever sinned, and by your sin hurt someone else?  If so, do you
   think that you will go to heaven?  The point is that NO ONE deserves to go
   to heaven.  Sure, you may not have raped and killed children, but you and
   I, like Wesley Allen Dodd have sinned and deserve to go to hell.  By out
   sin, you and I and Wesley Allen Dodd are guilt of killing the Son of God,
   Jesus Christ; THAT IS worse then killing and raping children.  Yet we are
   "saveable".  If God can forgive us for what we did, surely he can forgive
   Mr. Dodd.

   In Christ,
   Tony Balsamo
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen A. Creps)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ?'s
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:12:17 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <Jan.11.03.45.40.1993.21264@geneva.rutgers.edu> whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>>    If God did not always exist, then how did He come into being?  That
>> is, wouldn't someone have to have created Him if He did not always
>> exist?  If so, then there would have to be another god who created
>> God, and so on, and so on.
>
>This is a masterly summation.
>
>However....  My conclusion from it is a bit different than yours.
>
>Rather than postulate either an inifite regression of creators, or
>that God 'must ahve alsways existed' (whatever that turns out to
>mean), if God can simply exist--so can the universe, and that requires
>one less assumption than a God that created the universe.

   We know from observation, scientific or otherwise, that the
Universe tends toward disorder.  For example, try throwing a deck of
cards into the air and see if it forms a "house of cards" when it
lands.  However, we also can observe that it is in fact very ordered
in many ways.  One example of this would be the evolution of higher
forms of life from lower forms.

   So even if the Universe had always existed, what imposed this order
on it, when we can see that it tends toward disorder?

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: aslt@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Apostle Thomas in India?
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:56:47 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

Someone told me that Thomas the apostle (as in Doubting Thomas) ended up
in India as part of his missionary effort, but couldn't point me to any
evidence.  Anyone know anything about this?

Thanks in advance.  E-mail replies welcome.

Lee
From: dmalone@david.wheaton.edu (David Malone)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Gay/Lesbian alumni group of Wheaton College (IL).
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:57:01 GMT
Organization: Wheaton College, IL


	In August of 1992 this newsgroup had a posting related to a
Gay/Lesbian alumni group of Wheaton alums.  I am new to the newsgroup
structure and am interested in finding out more about this group.  I work in
the College's Archives and wish to document the existence of such a group for
research purposes.  I am not necessarily interested in who members are, but
when it was organized, group size, etc.

	Confidentiality will be given if so desired, I am interested in facts
for research, not the exposure of individuals. I am not interested in a debate
concerning the group, but only the facts concerning it.

	Information can be mailed to dmalone@david.wheaton.edu
From: whitsebd@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Do We Need To Pray????
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:23:12 GMT
Reply-To: whitsebd@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman

In article <Jan.3.21.44.04.1993.28273@geneva.rutgers.edu>  
labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com (Joel Labson) writes:
> I'd like some discussions on this....
> 
> If God knows what we need, don't you think that He will just give it to
> us automatically without praying for it??????
> 
> I think we just need to pray for what we want...NOT what we need....??
> 
> Any comments, agree,disagree,don't know,maybe ??????? - jrl
> 
> --

	God does know, but one very important part of prayer is to humble  
yourself. The definition of a need compared to a want is something you can  
not do without as compared to something you can. Many people mistake  
strong wants with needs.  An example of this is an automobile.  It is  
considered a "necessity of life" by many when public transportation, car  
pool, biking, and walking can get the job done.
	In my own life, I often include needs in my prayer.  This helps  
helps remind me that I am looking to God to take care of my basic needs.

In Christ,
Bryan Whitsell