From: Rick_Granberry@pts.mot.com (Rick Granberry)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Assurance of salvation
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:48:28 GMT
Reply-To: Rick_Granberry@pts.mot.com (Rick Granberry)
Organization: Paging, Wireless Data Group of Motorola, Inc.

In article <Jan.11.03.39.32.1993.21143@geneva.rutgers.edu>, 
fyao@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Frank Yao) writes:
> Here's something that's being bugging me lately.  As a Protestant,
> assurance of salvation is one of the doctrines I should be subscribing
> to, and in a sense I do, however I would like to know if one is
> considered saved if that person turns away from God?

   The posted responses have been good, but somewhat one sided, so for the 
sake of intellectual honesty, here is another 2cents. As I read through the 
Bible this year, I have a page in the back devoted to "the security of the 
soul", with a "pro" column and a "con".  I frequently find passages that seem 
to refer to the question.  I believe it is in his book about the Holy Spirit 
Billy Graham mentions there are more verses apparently against the 
"perseverance of the saints" than for (this is not to mis-construe his 
position which is pro!)  If you want my current collection pro & con Biblical 
passages, email me.

   REXLEX points out a certain failure mode of those who trust in a 
performance based security.  He says:
::What ever we say theologically about assurance, the reality of its
::significence is revealed in plain ole day-to-day living.
Which is probably true on both sides, those striving to please Him with their 
actions, and those who (like about 90% of churches I've seen) are so relieved 
they do nothing.  I fear "our theology" has driven a wedge between body and 
soul, Hearer and Doer, Spirit Filled and Full of Works.  Gnosticism is not 
dead.
  Most of the pro arguments rest in the arguments given by Randy and Dave, 
especially that no one can take souls out of His hand.  There still seems to 
be the question of, since Christ can hold us and won't lose us, can we 
willfully walk out on our own?  Since we do continue to commit sin after 
Trusting Him to save us,  I don't see how we can exclude the "unforgiveable 
sin" of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which would certainly separate us from 
God.

   Summary?  Trust in God.  All too often a doctrinal question like this has 
the result of tests of "correctness" or becoming judgemental of another 
person, I ought to know! (see denomination below).  Morris Galloway may 
convince me to become a Presbyterian!  It is worthy of a repeat:
"I've always found it more profitable to concentrate on loving God *with* all 
one's heart and mind and strength, as opposed to wondering about the minimum 
acceptable to God".

> Please include denomination after answer.

Still a Baptist (SBC)

|  Rick Granberry                          Phone (407) 364-2619 |
|  Motorola Email CRG001             rick_granberry@pts.mot.com |
|  I think we're all Bozos on this Bus!                uh, Clem |


[I've commented on this in the past, but it seems worth repeating.  I
have a problem with the attempt to treat assurance doctrinally.  It
seems that what people want is some doctrine that guarantees them that
they are saved, or at least specifies a test that can show that they
are.  The results all seem unsatisfying.  Luther and Calvin tried to
remove the problem by the doctrine of election.  I think they meant
this to point people to the need to trust God.  But when you try to
turn this into doctrine and tests -- which is what happened in later
generations -- you end up with debates about tests for determining
whether people are elect or not.  Or we have the Free Grace people who
seem to say that you are saved if and only if you put your trust in
God for at least one second sometime during your life.  I think their
argument strikes most people as odd.  

In my view, assurance has to come from trust in God.  And that trust
has to grow out of your relationship with him.  That is, it's an issue
of relationship, not an issue of doctrine.  I personally think it's
wrong to suggest to people that assurance of salvation is a goal to
pursue.  It should happen as a natural effect of your relationship
with God.  But if you pursue it as an end in itself, I fear it could
be self-defeating.  Consider human relationships.  Once you start
suspecting that someone doesn't love you, and looking for proofs of
their love, you've already lost the battle.  Trust has to come out of
the relationship.

--clh]