From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re:  Clean and Unclean
Date: 14 Sep 1992 23:06:01 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


>>The numerous passages which describe how prayer and repentance are
>>capable of earning atonement are *not* meant to call for the
>>elimination of sacrifices, but to show that they can substitute.
>>
>>  Consider a motorboat which also has oars.  Both the motor and the oars
>>  can propel the boat.  However, the presence of oars doesn't mean one
>>  should jettison the motor.  It does mean that in case the motor breaks
>>  down, you can still reach your destination by rowing, just as Jews
>>  earn atonement through prayer and recalling the Temple service.
>
>  Don't be so easily self-deceived. If you desire to develop your view of
>  Almight_G-d through _Field and Stream Magazine_ that is fine by me.
>  I prefer the WORD of G-d.


Note the ridicule in his dismissal of my line of reasoning.
Very cowardly.  The point is that we have a primary and backup way
for atonement.  Both work.

>> Furthermore, we learn from Lev. 16:31 that the Yom Kippur service is a
>> law for all time, Temple or not (Sforno).  From verse 34, we learn
>> that observance of the day itself brings atonement, as explained in
>> more detail in Yoma 86.
>
> OK. Now we can talk. Lev. 16:31 says the Yom Kippur is a law for all
> time. It also describes how to practice the day according to G-d's
> careful direction. Where does it say that in case of no temple the
> practice changes?

Because if it would be impossible without a Temple, then it couldn't
be for all time, rather it would be "while there's a Temple."  But
the word of G-d is that it is for all time, including now.

> And what is your English interpretation of Lev 16:34?
> Mine says:
>   This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be
>    made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites." (NIV)

A good translation is R' Kaplan's:

"[All this] shall be for you as a law for all time, so that the 
 Israelites [shall be able to] gain atonement for their sins once
 each year."

> How was atonement made? Lev 16:15,16,18,24,25 tell me it was with blood
> and not through prayer (though prayer was part of the act). I would say
> you are stuck in your boat with no acceptable means for propulsion with
> out What God says you need for true atonement.

I'm without my Evinrude ('for it is the gasoline which fuels the
engine'), but I've got my oars.  Of course you can't power the
engine with oars, but you can row.


> Of course, you're perfectly free to state "According to RABBINIC Judaism,
> atonement can be made through prayers alone." Go right ahead, but don't
> call your ideas TORAH Judaism in light of Leviticus 16.

1. Christianity says "atonement only through blood." 

2. Judaism says "atonement can be through prayer."

3. "Messianic Judaism [sic]" says "atonement only through blood."

Therefore the label "Christianity" covers both 1 and 3.
The label "Judaism" does not cover both 2 and 3.  Therefore
you attempt to render "Judaism" meaningless by describing 2 and 3
with it.   That's deceptive.

R




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Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic