HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: matthews@xerox.com (Dave Matthews)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M1 Carbine questions
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:07:03 GMT
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY

I have pretty much decided that my next toy is going to be a semi auto rifle.  I will be buying it before
Slick takes the oath of office.  It will be used as a plinker/truck gun.  The choices have come down to
the SKS and the M1 Carbine because toy budget has taken a beating lately. The carbine is winning
because it has better sights, removable mags,and probably won't get banned as quickly thus better
long term parts availability.   Since I reload the ammo cost difference between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine
is on the order of 2-3 cents per round for plinkers.  I am also assuming that Chinese 7.62x39 will go 
up in price or stop being imported if SKS/AK type rifles are banned.  

I need some advice on picking out a carbine.  What to check, what normally gets screwed up, etc.

What am I going to get if I have my friendly local FFL order one of the guns out of Shotgun News?

I am a little too young to have carried one, my issued weapon was make by Mattel (well almost).
  
I have been told that the M1 carbine in not very accurate - but nobody has defined what not very
accurate means.  Are they good enough to hit a woodchuck at 100 yards?  

How about cast bullet loads?  I have seen hard cast .30 carbine bullets advertised for about $30/1000.
Will I get heavy leading from these?

Will 30 round mags work with the M1 carbine magazine catch or do I need to upgrade it to the M2 catch?

Any pet loads?  The books all seem to list about 12-14 grains of 2400 with 100-110 grain bullets.

The current price seems to be about $140 + shipping + $10 for paper work.  Does anybody know of any
better deals or want to make a private sale on a shootable carbine?  

Is there any reason to go with an SKS over the M1 carbine?

Dave 	(Matthews@Xerox.Com will not work for incoming mail.  Please use DMatt.Henr801h@Xerox.Com)
From: nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: *** GLOCK *** 21, 22, and 23
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:35:00 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


I'm interested in buying a Glock, probably for carry purposes (concealed???).
I know they are big, but is there a difference between the Glock .45 ACP and
.40 S&W size-wise?  How about the 22 & 23?

Does anyone regularly carry the 21, 22, or 23?  Is it uncomfortable?  (I will
be using a horizontal shoulder outfit.)

Are the barrel lengths all the same?

How much difference in kick is there between the 40 and 45?

Does one tend to be more accurate than the other?  Feed better?

Is the .45 worth the extra $40 or so that it costs?

Lastly, where is the cheapest place I could order the 21, 22, and 23?  I've
seen $399 for the 22 and 23, and $439 for the 21, is there anywhere cheaper?

Thanks,

Nathan

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       G  O       H  O  U  S  T  O  N 
<<      Nathan A. Horstman      >>  OOOO  IIIIII LL     EEEEEE RRRRR   SSSS  ||
<<   University of Pittsburgh   >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR  RR SS     ||
<< in%"nahst6@vms.cis.pitt.edu" >> OO  OO   II   LL     EEEE   RRRRR   SSSS  ||
<<      nahst6+@pitt.edu        >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR RR      SS ||
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OOOO  IIIIII LLLLLL EEEEEE RR  RR  SSSS  oo
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:03:11 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:

#SCENARIO:  It is late at night.  You and your wife wake up from the sound of
#a broken window in the living room.  You grab your favorite perp-popper and
#head out towards the living room.  It is a dark, overcast night, and you can
#see the perp's outline but cannot discern if he is armed.  What do you do?  
#Shoot?  Yell something?  

You're not going to like the answer, because the answer is: "It depends."

In general you're much better off not attempting to "clear" your house, there
are just too many ways that you can get dead.  If at all possible retreat to a
safe area, assume a position of cover, or at least concealment, and let them
come to you.

If you do get involved in a house clearing it helps to have at least one of
the following, if not both.

   1) At least two, two person teams that have trained together and have
      secure communication between all members of the team.

   2) A well trained dog.

If you had no choice but to put your self in your scenario it still depends.
The general rules are:

    * ID the target.

    * Determine the threat.

    * Eliminate the threat.

    * Don't get shot.

To that end:  Has the window indeed been broken?  Is it somebody you know?  If
so do you have reason to believe that person is a threat?  Are they inside or
outside the house?  Do they appear to be armed?  (Note that knives, pry bars,
pieces of pipe and clubs also constitute armed.)

IF: It was somebody that I didn't know who had forcibly entered my house and
they appeared to be armed (see above) I would probably shoot.  Not given the
above information I would attempt to control the situation by having them
assume a felony prone position.  In reference to another discussion on this
subject, if they're inside my house they don't get very many chances to
refuse.  I believe that this is a completely legal response under California
law.

How do you determine all this?  That is why I have the SureFire light mounted
on the end of the Benelli.  Tactical doctrine:  Light on.  ID the target.
Shoot / Light off.  Total time, two seconds or less.  Move.  Scan for
additional problems.

What would I actually do?  Stay in my previously prepared and barricaded
position until reinforcements have arrived.  The police are much better
prepared to deal with this situation than I am.

What? 911 doesn't answer?  Two options:  Evade or secure the area.  If I have
to secure the area, then:  I put on appropriate clothing and equipment.
Remember, I have a secure position, there is no need to rush.  The dog goes
first, my wife provides backup.  Basic house clearing drill and I know the
ground.  Watch your fields of vision, never turn your back on an un-cleared
area, watch out for windows and remember - rats run in packs.

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HELP 9mm autos, opinions needed
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:38 GMT

well the responses to my previous post have trickled off.  I figure this
was due to the length of the included table of possible self defense
9's.  So I've shortened the table to include only ones I'm really
interested in.

please e-mail or post any experiences with these pieces:


Model     Caliber  Capac.  overall  weight   action    other     price
                            length   (oz.)                       (.77
                            (in.)                                sugg
                                                                retail)
Glock 19    9mm      15      6.85    20.99    'safe   polymer    $450
                                             action'  frame,       
                      adj sight     (incl. extra mag, loader, and
                       avail.               cleaning kit)

S&W 6904    9mm      12     6.81?    26.5      DA      alloy      449
                                                       frame


S&W 915     9mm      15      7.5     28.5      DA      alloy      360
                                                       frame

Sig Sauer   9mm      13      7.1     29.1      DA                 620
P228

Taurus PT   9mm      13      7.5      31       DA                 364
92C
                                                       with       385
                                                     shooters
                                                       pack

Heckler     9mm      13      6.73     29      SA ->   w/ grip     776
& Koch                                                squeeze
PTM13                                                 cocker

Model     Caliber  Capac.  overall  weight   action    other     price
                            length   (oz.)                       (.77
                            (in.)                                sugg
                                                                retail)
------------------------
Also, 
I dry fired the Taurus at the shop, and was very disappointed by the DA
trigger pull.  It felt stiff and grinding...was this a bad piece or are
they all like that?

How well does hollowpoint stuff feed in these autos.  any problems experienced?

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: es33+@andrew.cmu.edu (Eugene A. Smith, III)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HOLSTERS FOR SALE
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:10:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.wf1iwxy00WBL048mpX

TWO HOLSTERS FOR SALE!


One Galco "Predator" (Nylon version of the Miami Classic) for right-handers. 
Horizontal Carry Shoulder Holster, Double Magazine Pouch on off-side.
Fits Berreta 92, Glock 17, 19, 22, 23, 21, Large S&W Autos, Ruger P85,
P89,   Sig 226, 220, etc.
New-never used.
Lists for $64.00. I paid $56.00. Sell for $20.00

What's the catch? I adjusted the holster harness for me, then (stupidly)
cut off the excess nylon strap, leaving only a limited range of
adjustment. If you're about my size (5'11", 198 lbs., size 42-44 jacket,
16-33 shirt) you'll have no problems. Here's your chance to profit from
my mistake. I find that I prefer a belt-slide type holster (Oh well,
live and learn).


One Uncle Mike's Open-style, Inside-the-Pant Holster.  
Size 15, fits 3-3/4 to 4-1/2 inch barrel large autos, including Ruger
P85, P89, P90, Sig 220, 226, Large S&W autos, Glock 17, 22, 20, 21, H&K
P9S, Colt Commander, CZ-75, etc.
New-never used.
Lists for $9.95. I paid $8.95. Sell for $4.00.

Will send holsters postpaid via U.S. Postal Service.

Please e-mail responses to Gene Smith at es33@andrew.cmu.edu
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: distance a .22 lr travels
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:09:28 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center


   I was once in the vicinity of where someone's .22LR bullets were
landing when they were foolishly shooting at birds in a tree (song
birds, not game birds.)  Ironically enough I was with a friend, shooting
in an area where it was once permitted.  We were shooting at targets
which were placed infront of dirt embankment about ten feet in height.
In a moment when we weren't making any noise, I heard faint whistling sounds
identical to .22LR ricochets I had heard before.  My friend was standing
about twenty feet away from me and didn't hear the whistling at all.
On our way back to our car we came across the culprits who were by now
fishing.  In a brief conversation they mentioned that they had earlier
been shooting at some birds with a .22 rifle.  I politely told them
that in the future they ought to be more careful.

Michael Gordon
From: bob@hubcap.clemson.edu (Bob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sprinfield Armory P9
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:18:06 GMT
Organization: Clemson University

Hi all!

     I am considering buying another handgun and would like to get some
opinions from you all. I was looking at the Springfiel Armory P9 in
either .40 or .45 caliber. Do any of you have one or even have an
opinion on this model. I already have a Springfield Armory 90's addition
1911-A1 and am more than happy with it. I have had it customized by the
Springfield Custom shop and they did a superb job with it and would like
to buy another handgun from them. I have seen the P9 in 9mm but would
like to get opinions on the .40 and .45 caliber models.

Thanks in advance

Bob Staaf
bob@hubcap.clemson.edu

  If possible please e-mail a response as I do not have time usually to
wade through the sheer volume of messages in this group and do not have
a kill file and have not had the time to learn rn enough to figure out
how to search for responses.

Thanks again for your patients
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:05 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <01GR9J73I2IW0065TO@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU>, by apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu:
# In article <199211171656.AA28753@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# # In article <1992Nov16.112309.1032@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
# # #...
# # #IMHO, the best course of action is to leave  a  suspect  a  clear
# # #possibility  to  escape.  If I found somebody inside my flat, I'd
# # #yell "GET OUT  HERE  OR  I  SHOOT  YOU!  OUT  NOW!",  instead  of
# # #"FREEZE!" or something similar.
# # 
# # One more question on this one. If I do offer the bad guy an option
# # to leave and he does leave, what should I tell the cops after all
# # is over? Should I tell them the whole truth including that I've offered
# # the bad guy an option to leave?
# 
# Yes, absolutely tell the officers everything. You don't want to be in a
# position where they find out the real story later (like from the suspect if
# they arrest him/her) and see that you did were deceptive.  Doesn't look good in
# open court either...
#  
# Eric Huber
# Mankato State University
# Law Enforcement Program
#

With all due respect to Eric, wouldn't it be best to have your
attorney present if you have one? 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What to buy....
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:05 GMT

[ Hello moderator.  I have tried to include enough information to avoid
editing :-)  Political followups to t.p.g! ]

What to buy?

The 1992 Omnibus crime bill went into the compromise committee with the
following list directly quoted:

"(30) (A) The term 'assault weapon' means any of the following weapons, or
copy thereof:

(i) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil

(ii) Auto Ordinance 27A1 Thompson, 27A5 Thompson, and M1 Thompson

(iii) Beretta AR-70 (SC-70).

(iv) Colt Ar-15 and CAR-15

(v) Fabrique Nationale FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC

(vi) INTRATEC TEC-9

(vii) MAC 10 and 11

(viii) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs

(ix) Springfield BM59 { M1 grand? DP}, SAR48, and G3SA

(x) Steyr AUG

(xi) Street Sweeper and Striker 12.

(xii) All Ruger Mini-14 models with folding stocks.

(B) The term 'copy' means, with respect to a weapon specified in
subparagraph (A), a weapon, by whatever name known, which embodies the same
basic configuration as the weapon so specified."

And of course they gave the treasury power to recommend additions.

Gentlefolk, I believe our opponents deserve for us to EACH give large sums
of money to the ILA.  At least in the hundreds.  Iven if you don't get one
toy.

You never had it so bad, but don't give up.  Congress may not be as bad as
last year.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: canders%lacerta.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Cliff Anderson CIRT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AK47 WOODY
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:06:18 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

I've been noticing quite a few stock and pistol grip kits that would
facilitate the conversion of an AK47 Sporter to look like its pre-ban 
cousin, (minus its bayonet lug and removable barrel nut).  I've seen
these specifically for MAK90 and stamped receiver Norinco Sporters.  

It seems like the conversion of these rifles to look like there "pre-ban"
cousins would cause a problem with BATF.  However, the kits I saw that are 
available don't require a FFL to purchase.  I own a MAK90 Sporter and 
would very much like to convert it but, I'm concerned about the legalities. 

Could someone with BATF experience please shed some light.

Thanks,  Cliff.
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: ACP
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:50 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1e9hrfINN644@male.EBay.Sun.COM> 49ers@eb5ts4.EBay.Sun.COM (Renie Maycon) writes:
#Can someone tell me what ACP stands Does it stand for Automatic Colt Pistol?

Yes.
#
#Why do so many people bad mouth the Glock guns?

Two major reasons.  One, people mistrust, or even fear, change, and
a Glock is a very different pistol.  Of course, some people love
change for its own sake, and would love a Glock even if it shot
ping-pong balls.

Two, many people judge firearms by their sex appeal, which I find
as sensible as judging dates by safety and ballistics.  Some people
are into black rubber; some are into black plastic.  These
proclivities _may_ be mutually exclusive.

Note that neither of the above criteria has anything to do with
the Glock's usability as a pistol.  While I've never fired one,
people I trust indicate that, _if you like it_, the Glock is a
very fine pistol.

I hope this helps.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 22 LR sub-sonic - anyone use this stuff?
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: Csli.1992Nov16.185256.4162
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University


Anyone have any experiences with the various 22 LR sub-sonic ammo?
I'm interested in the "Aussie" brand. I've used RWS, but it's a bit
pricey for me.

thanks...rich
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 7.62 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokarev & the CZ-52
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:33:09 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <9211181301.aa24173@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#
#
#Donald R. Newcomb writes:
##I'm thinking of adding a CZ-52 pistol to my collection. This piece, as I
##understand, fires a high-power version of the 7.62 Tokarev round. I am
##not exactly clear on what is required to reload for this gun. "Cartridges
##of the World" seems to indicate that the Tokarev is just a different
##loading of the 7.62 Mauser. Would I just use 7.62 Mauser dies and brass
##to load for the CZ-52?
#
#
#While there are allegedly some dimensional differences, you can indeed
#use the 7.63mm Mauser dies to load Tokarev ammo. The difference is in
#the power level, with the Mauser load being weakest, the Tokarev hotter,
#and the Czech M48 hotter still. The Czech load gets about 100 ft/s more
#than the Tokarev with the same bullet.

Hmmm...  And how do they all relate to the small Lugar round?  Was it
a 7.62 mm also?  That is, is the '.30 cal' Lugar in any way the same
as the 7.62 mm Mauser?

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: DENNIS_@ncsu.edu (DGA)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:06 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <27504@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
#Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
#Date: 19 Nov 92 15:06:42 GMT
#In article <1992Nov17.023032.19198@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com 
#(Don Baldwin) writes:
#
##However, I have a couple hangups about the gun that may be baseless or may
##be factors that will influence my final decision.  One of those hangups is
##that, if I buy the 1911, I seem to have two choices:  either save my
##allowance and spend the extra cash on a Gold Cup OR get the low end model
##and spend approximately the same amount of money having it customized (to
##handle non-FMJ loads and in the interest of accuracy).  (How do the
##Colt 1911 variants (e.g., Combat Commander) stack up in this regard?)
#

Don, I used a Combat Commander for years.  The only mod was a nice set of 
adjustable sights and careful selection of loads for target ammo.  The gun 
shot as well as the shooter.  I considered it primarily a defense piece with 
enough paper punching to maintain my skill level.  I kept a .22lr target 
pistol for those 500 round plus days at the range.

My only real complaint of the Commander that I had is that I didn't feel 
that it had an adequate safety system.  IMHO, it is a serious disadvantage 
for a defense weapon not to allow for a safe loaded condition.

DGA

I, of course, like the rest of you can only speak of past experience since I 
melted down all of my guns when I realized that I, as a part of society, was 
responsible for all criminal activity.  I it seemed terribly unfair of me to 
make crime dangerous for the poor unfortunates that I had forced into the 
lifestyle.
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Powder Detonation [LONG]
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:08:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: bbxrbk.1992Nov16.182924.28903
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <92Nov13.001503edt.6357@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Lloyd D Reid) writes:
#Anyone else have any pet theories on this topic?
#
#Daniel Chisholm  (posting from prof's acct.)
#
#
#On a semi-relevant note,
#
#Charge designers for artillery-size guns sometimes experience 'pressure
#excursion' problems.  There is evidence that attributes this to a poor
#(nonuniform) powder ignition, which produces pressure waves inside the
#combustion chamber causing an excessive increase in the powder burn
#rate.  I think the faster burn time and smaller combustion chambers
#found in small arms would severely reduce the effects of such pressure
#waves.  Of course, I am open to correction on this...

The evidence I've seen on small arms seems to support the "pressure
waves" theory of pressure excursion in a lightly loaded rifle.  If you
get the book _Firearms Pressure Factors_ from Wolfe Publishing you'll
find a whole lot of articles, including the complete 1968 paper from
Lloyd E. Brownell and his grad students in which they dissect interior
ballistics.

It's my impression that it wasn't until good and fast pressure
readings were available for testing that it could be understood - the
copper crush method of measuring pressure only measured the peak
pressure.  More recent pressure readings of light loads in rifles show
some repetitive peaks in the pressure, well above the maximum chamber
pressure.  These peaks seems to decrease in frequency over time,
suggesting some sort of wave or ringing relating to total chamber
volume.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) says:

#I read that H & K is producing a 10 mm Auto Carbine based on their MP5 design.  
#I doubt if any semi-auto versions will be imported to the U.S. for the general 
#public due to the ban on importation of the military look-a-like semi autos.

H&K 10mm carbines and SMGs do exist.  For the lady who got offed by
a peace officer during an "oops" no-knock raid in Everett Wa last year, 
the mad-dog slayer(/perp/cop), was armed with a H&K 10mm submachinegun if
I remember the reports right.

I think the verdict was that he forgot safety rules #1 and #2, so
it was excuseable.

Followupts to TPG, unless it's on the 10mm angle.

Jim Del Vecchio