From: davisonj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Davison)
Newsgroups: rec.video,rec.audio
Subject: SUMMARY: VHS Hi-Fi comments
Summary: summary of electronic mail I received on the issue
Keywords: VHS Hi-Fi VCR
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:14:05 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep10.033450.29442@en.ecn.purdue.edu>, I posted the following
question:
> 
>         I am looking for a VHS (and/or SVHS) Hi-Fi VCR for $500 or less, to be
> used primarily for semi-professional audio recording, mastering, and audio/
> video time shifting.  I bought a Sony SLV-696HF and was pleased with the
> performance and most of the user interface, but it lacked audio input level
> controls, and although I suppose I could hook up an old broken cassette deck
> to act as a input volume control, I fear that the consequent sonic
> degradation and additional hassle would outweigh the nifty aspects of the
> SLV-696HF.  (I ended up returning the SLV-696HF for that reason.)
> 
>         Could someone direct me to a more appropriate VCR for someone in my
> price range?  (Mitsubishi puts out a model around the price of the SLV-696HF,
> but with input level controls.  Is it any good?)  Also, I am curious about the
> following issues:
> 
> 1. Would it be worthwhile to use a broken cassette deck as an input volume
>    control for something like the SLV-696HF, or should I demand a VCR with
>    input level controls?
> 
> 2. Is better audio fidelity among the advantages of SVHS Hi-Fi (i.e. does it
>    sound any better than VHS Hi-Fi)?
> 
> 3. All visual considerations aside, is it possible to do any sort of sonic
>    editing wih VHS or SVHS?  Would a flying erase head do me any good?
> 
> 4. What is a good tape for audio mastering purposes?
> 
> 5. Am I correct in thinking that audio input level controls are largely the
>    domain of SVHS machines?  If so, why?  (Do rich people really prefer more
>    knobs?)


	What follows is a condensed version of the replies I got.  Thanks to
Chhunak, David E A Wilson, Brent Byer, Barry Sanders, Craig Shore, Doug Cha,
Dinesh Punjabi, Eric Benson, Eliot Moore, Mark Fontana, Steven Green, Robert
Michael Gutierrez, Greg Kimnach, Alan Larson, Leszek Mazur, and Sanjiv K.
Bhatia.

        By the way, I haven't yet picked up a VCR, but plan to do so very
soon.

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From: gutierre@noc2.arc.nasa.gov (Robert Michael Gutierrez)
Date: 11 Sep 92 06:53:16 GMT

davisonj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Davison) writes:
...
|> 1. Would it be worthwhile to use a broken cassette deck as an input volume
|>    control for something like the SLV-696HF, or should I demand a VCR with
|>    input level controls?

This VCR has ALC, so adjusting levels before the VCR won't make any difference.
The ALC is a bit dampened in attack/delay (as opposed to the standard linear
track which always reminds me of a CBS Labs Volumax at maximum settings), but
the ALC will eventually creep up and compensate for your lower levels.

|> 2. Is better audio fidelity among the advantages of SVHS Hi-Fi (i.e. does it
|>    sound any better than VHS Hi-Fi)?

Nope.  No difference.  It's because of the setup of the companding system.

|> 3. All visual considerations aside, is it possible to do any sort of sonic
|>    editing wih VHS or SVHS?  Would a flying erase head do me any good?

Only with an editing system.  With say 2 Sony SLV-R5's and a good controller
(like a Future Video Pro Mk-II) you'd be within +- 2-3 video frames (~1/10 to
1/15 second accuracy).  This is expensive enough (~$2200.  With 2 Panasonic 
AG-7760's (with the time code option) and a Panasonic controller, you'd still
be looking at exactly 1/30th second accuracy.  This is a stratopherically
expensive system ($10k+).  Anyway, that comparison is overkill at this point...

|> 4. What is a good tape for audio mastering purposes?

With HiFi, any tape will do that has a good bonding system (ie: amount of
bonding vs. amount of oxide).  For sure, the industrial tapes (Ampex 199,
Sony BA-120 or 3M/Scotch Color Plus) would be the start.  After that, I
would not go below HiFi consumer grades (Maxell HGX-HiFi, TDK HiFi, etc).
What you are looking for in a tape is the fewest dropouts possible on
the tape.  A "dropout" is where the oxide either wears off the tape backing
because of normal playing over the video heads, or just literally flakes
off because of a weak bonding system.  Some of the so-called high output
tapes get higher video frequency response by packing in more oxide at the
risk of the binding system not being able to retain against the backing
over time.  Literally, it can vary also on the "batch" of tape made (batches
made on large rolls not unlike newsprint, and the tape cut into 1/2 inch
strips as it is rolled off and packaged).

|> 5. Am I correct in thinking that audio input level controls are largely the
|>    domain of SVHS machines?  If so, why?  (Do rich people really prefer more
|>    knobs?)

No, the loss of manual level controls come from "idiotizing" the machines
themselves.  All of the HiFi machines at the start of their manufacture were
equipped with *only* level controls, no ALC at all!  With the advent of
people who complained where they were supposed to keep the levels at, the
manufacturers did the only thing to stop the complaints...they got rid of
the controls except for the highest end machines.  And even with those,
they have ALC switches, just in case (like my Panasonic PV-4990 S-VHS).

There's always Beta!  They all have level controls...

|>         Any and all comments would be appreciated, especially if they were
|> mailed to me in addition to being posted.  Thank you very much!

Well, the current system I use is the old PCM system, which is ironically
used now to sumbit CD masters to major manufacturers.  The PCM system is
where white and black values on the video portion are used to represent
digital bits, and those values are converted to digital audio, and then
processed as such.  Depending on the PCM unit you use, it uses a standard
sampling rate and frequency (44.1 khz, 16 bit ... standard CD sampling).
Newer PCM units have SPDIF (digital) inputs and outputs which uses exactly
the same digital stream like any normal CD player with a digital output.
Older PCM units do not have digital in/outputs, and sometimes use a different
sampling rate (44.056 khz, 14 or 16 bit).  I have one of those non-standard
units (a Sony PCM-F1), but the "tapes" made on it can be played back on
any of the newer players (though digital copying from 44.056 khz to 44.1 khz
may be impossible without an expensive sampling rate converter).

Using PCM units affords the same uses as VHS tape, like 9 hour record/play
(with a T-180) and using an existing available machine (my VCR), and it
avoids the problems with VHS HiFi tracks.  What problems...???

Well, VHS HiFi is a companded system.  It uses 2:1 companding because
the dynamic range of VHS HiFi without any noise reduction is 50-55 db!
They had the frequency range, but because of the apparent high speed
of the tape and to hide the head switching noise of the HiFi heads, they
had to clean it up somehow.  Companding was the only way to do it.  Problem
is, it's a lousy system because the tracking of the videotape is more
critical (due to the "depth multiplex" system of recording the audio
to begin with, ie: recording the audio at a different head azmuth so
as to not interfere [yeah, right!] with the video portion of the
tape), and you have that awful "pumping" of typically cheap and cheezey
companding systems.  And that head switching noise always in the background!
(sounds like slow buzzing).  Oh yeah, copies of HiFi tapes just compound
the problem with expanding/recompanding and more head switching noise...

(P.S...I don't put up with my HiFi system at all.  The HiFi tracks are
used for [Left channel] SMPTE time code and [Right channel] WWV time clock,
the video portion of course containing the PCM video).

Just Say NO to HiFi!
...
p.s..some more short notes, just in case you're interested:

Experimenting with my S-VHS unit and my ED Beta unit (yes, I have LOTS of
toys!), there was some interesting things I found.

Seems I had some problems recording in S-VHS for the PCM unit.  The sound
had over-emphasized highs (making the sound very, very "bright"), but without
any error correction indication, I could not figure out whay this was
happening.  I had concluded at the time that it was just white peaks extending
beyond the original spec for the F1, and the video input was internally
pre-emphasized for the low bandwidth of regular VHS (or the originally
intended Beta in the case of the F1).  This theory was promptly shot
down when I tried a test recording using my ED Beta machine in ED Beta
mode (ED Beta tape and drop out compensator disabled via the "PCM" switch
on the ED Beta).  Theories now run rampant from problems with the color
signal not disabling on the S-VHS (being the conversion from 3.58 mhz to
688 khz not stable at all!) to Panasonic playing tricks in doing their
own bandwidth pre-emphasis to make the picture look better, to god-knows-
what-else...

Also, Beta is very well known for droputs and skew (tape strech) on their 
tapes due to the "U" loading system (full tape wrap loading), and so
that makes me squeamish in using anything PCM related on any Beta tape,
and always using 14 bit mode for the extra CRC error correction.  Bleah!
Comments?
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From: dpunjabi@nyx.cs.du.edu (DINESH PUNJABI)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 23:32:53 MDT

I am trying to buy one such VCRs myself but the problem has been trying to
get many features for little money. I feel Hifi VCRs & SVHS
VCRs are relatively new to the market ( a few companies are kind of 
monopolizing on a lot of good features so to speak ), hence the high cost,
especially for the SVHS units. 


Here is a real brief summary of my limited findings ...


1. Panasonic PVS-4280 SVHS VCR
   + relatively cheap ( < 599 via mail order )
   + records in LP mode 
   + program director ( additional remote for timer recordings )
   + good jog/shuttle on both VCR & remote ( not spring loaded, unlike
     the Sony, hence good for doing slo-motion edits )
   + has audio rec level ( 1-control for R,L though .. )
   + excellent SVHS quality
   + audio, video dubs

   - very poor layout of controls, especially on the VCR unit
   - no high speed rewind / ff
   - no seperate L,R recording level ( audio ) controls
   - lacks Control-L/S 
   - Camera World does not carry it yet

2. Mitsubishi HSU-57 ( REGULAR VHS )

   + lots of useful features
   + 1:23 rewind/ff time
   + 0.3 sec tape load  ( after initial load ) 
   + good audio quality
   + recording level (audio) with balance control
   + well laid out control keys
   + spot check ( checking playback during FF/REW )
   + under 450 via mail order

   - lacks LP recording
   - lacks jog/shuttle on unit ( has it on remote only )
   - Camera World does not carry it

3. Sony 696 

   + I prefer Sony products 
   + Good overall features
   + VCR+ programming

   - lacks audio rec controls 
   - lacks Control-L/S
   - spring loaded Jog/Shuttle ( kind of painful for editing )

4. Mitsubishi HSU-67 ( like 57 but has SVHS in addition )
   - too expensive, costs over 650 ( I would buy SLV-R5 for 750 which has
     Control-L/S for editing )

5. Sony SLV-R5 
   - excellent but too expensive for now ...

I would strongly 

   + can get it from Camera World of Oregon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <CXK129@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Date:    Thu, 10 Sep 92 10:20 EDT

I have the JVC HRS-6700 for about a year now, and I'm very pleased with it.
Back then, it costed me $600.25 thru mail order.  It has REC LEVEL and
BALANCE control knobs.The Hi-Fi sound is amazingly clear--I sometimes use it
to record CD's and can't really tell it from the original sound.  The
jog/shuttle control on both the remote and the deck gives you frame-by-frame
control of the picture.  I heard people talk about the Hi-Fi dropout
problems with most JVC decks, but I have not experienced this yet with the
6700, except once ocassion with a wrinkle rental tape.I'm not familiar with
Mitsubishi decks, but I heard a lot of good commemnts on their features and
reliability.
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From: lmazur%pucc.bitnet@Princeton.EDU (Leszek Mazur)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 10:21:58 EDT

        I have a toshiba 845.  It's three years old and works perfectly well
and it DOES have the recording level controls along with a peak-hold audio
meter.  It also has a four band PB only graphic equalizer and for your regular
video editing needs it has a flying erase head.  At least to my old ears the
sound from the VCR is great, especially if you make copies from CD's.  I bought
mine three years ago for $399 in New York.  However, I think, it has been
discontinued last year, so only a few stores would still have it in stock.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bb@generali.harvard.edu (Brent Byer)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11:37:09 -0400

In article <1992Sep10.033450.29442@en.ecn.purdue.edu> you write:

>        Could someone direct me to a more appropriate VCR for someone in my
>price range?  (Mitsubishi puts out a model around the price of the SLV-696HF,
>but with input level controls.  Is it any good?)

Minor correction: The Mits has *an* input level control, using a "balance"
		  control to distribute signal L-R .

Also, be advised that the Mits HS-U65 is being superceded by HS-U67.
>From literature, the only identifiable difference is that U67 has
audio & video dubbing, vs the U65 which has only video dubbing.
(Same dubbing distinction applies to new U57 vs older U55&U56.)
The U67 & U57 are new and may not yet be available.
The U67 is S-VHS; the U57 is not.  Other differences are that U67
has dynamic comb filter, and headphone jack w/level control.  U57
has neither.

I don't think the Mitsubishi products are discounted as steeply
as Sony.  If you explore Mits, please let me know of any mail-order
discounters you discover.  tnx


Are you aware that the SLV-676HF (2 yrs ago predecessor of 696) had
not only separate L-R input levels, BUT ALSO headphone jack and
headphone level control.  The 676 also had Synchro-edit w/pre-roll .

[  I was planning to get two 696's and requested literature from Sony
   (I detest subjecting myself to emporium sales-bozos.)  Well, Sony
   screwed up and sent me a brochure for the 676.  This was my good
   fortune, because I then realized what was missing from the 696.
   I am still shopping.
]
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From: sanjiv@redbird.umsl.edu (Sanjiv K. Bhatia)

I have a Mitsubishi US-55 VCR and am pretty happy with the performance.  It
cost $599 in the local Circuit City but I remember seeing a mail order for $496
in one of the magazines.  It has the input level controls you are asking for as
well as a flying erase head.  I guess the erase head is useful if you are doing
a lot of editing while recording.  You can practically get rid of individual
frames.

I have been told that Mitsubishi has discontinued the model and come out with a
new one (US-57?).  The cost should be the same as the one replaced but a couple
of new features might have been added.  For all you know, you may be able to
buy the US-55 at a cheaper price because of the clearance time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: larson@net.com (Alan Larson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11:07:16 PDT

In article <1992Sep10.033450.29442@en.ecn.purdue.edu> you write:

>1. Would it be worthwhile to use a broken cassette deck as an input volume
>   control for something like the SLV-696HF, or should I demand a VCR with
>   input level controls?

  Depends.  If the deck has automatic level controls, it won't do much
good to preset the level outside it.


>2. Is better audio fidelity among the advantages of SVHS Hi-Fi (i.e. does it
>   sound any better than VHS Hi-Fi)?

  It is identical, from all I have heard.  SVHS simply moves the luminance
channel.  It doesn't affect sound or chroma information.


>3. All visual considerations aside, is it possible to do any sort of sonic
>   editing wih VHS or SVHS?  Would a flying erase head do me any good?

  I don't think so, but I don't know what you mean by sonic editing.
It won't do fades, and you cannot record and mix sound.  You might
get slightly cleaner cuts with a FEH, but I doubt that you would know
the difference.


>4. What is a good tape for audio mastering purposes?

  Actually, I doubt there is much difference, but the fans will tell
you of those they think are better.

  HiFi sound on videotape is an FM channel.  If you have the signal
there with sufficient margin above threshold, the tape won't matter.


>5. Am I correct in thinking that audio input level controls are largely the
>   domain of SVHS machines?  If so, why?  (Do rich people really prefer more
>   knobs?)

  Probably because SVHS users are more likely to be the ones who care
about such details.  Possibly because SVHS machines are high-end, and
high end machines have more features.  I don't think rich people prefer
more knobs, and probably don't care about SVHS more than the poor video
fans.
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To: davisonj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Davison)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 22:43:25 HST

John,
        I don't have answers to most of your questions, but I do have the 
Mitsubishi model which you are refering to (U55).  It is an excellent 
machine...
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From: bsanders@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Barry Sanders)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 00:51:44 CDT

I, too, have been on such a search for *years*.  I have landed on several units
that seem good.  I just bought a Sharp Hi-Fi VHS unit from Target for $289 that
not only has the much-needed manual record levels, it also has the very 
convenient VISS (Video Index Signal System?) for marking cue points on the tape.
I've also heavily considered the purchase of a GoldStar A485 Hi-Fi VHS Edit
Deck.  It has stuff like Flying Erase, Jog Shuttle, Manual Record Levels, 
Indexing, etc.  It sells at discount stores for like $399 or less (list $499),
and  Video magazine frankly raved about it when it came out. I think it is the
best price/performance VHS Hi-Fi deck on the market currently.
By all means, though, call the NY/NJ mail-order places in the back of Video
magazine(s). They have lots of different ones to choose from.  
Oh, and BTW, I've forgotten the model number of the Sharp VCR from Target. I'll
get it if you want it.  I do recommend Sharp stuff.  

BUT!!!!!  (Dramatic change of tone.)  I *DON'T* recommend using a Hi-Fi VCR for
mastering music.  Try recording some 4-piece acoustic jazz on one, and then 
listen to it with good headphones.  You *will* hear noise, very audibly.  I have
been disappointed with my attempts at using Hi-Fi for mastering music.  It 
sounds like a good idea, but it doesn't work very well. (That is, unless your
music is noisey to begin with, then I guess it doesn't matter what you use to
master it :-).  I have saved my pennies and sold-off some equipment, and I'm 
about to embark upon the road to DAT Mastering Heaven. (or was it Hell?)

Maybe, just maybe, you might consider getting a used pro-quality reel-to-reel
2-track machine (with dbx or dolby "C") instead of DAT.  I think that when all
is said and done, though, the $450-500 spent on a Sony DTC-670 DAT deck (just
ask me for phone numbers, I've got 'em) will be money well spent (not money
spent in a well...)  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
John Davison
davisonj@ecn.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.video