HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (The Econoclast)
Subject: Glove errors v. throwing errors
Organization: Social Science Computing Laboratory
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:03:36 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.152416.13456@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

> So, say we have two second basemen, who played exactly the same number of
> innings at second, faced exactly the same number of balls hit to them that
> would be reached by an average 2b, converted exactly the same number of
> them into outs, but one made 40 errors and the other 20.  Now, who's the
> better fielder, and why?

	I've been trying to follow this thread/discussion for quite
some time, and I may have missed something. The above question points
out very clearly for everyone to see the meaninglessness of fielding
errors. As has been pointed out very well by others many times, the
important question is whether the player makes the play. It doesn't
matter whether he gets to the ball and muffs it or doesn't get to the
ball: either way the batter is safe. In some cases (especially 1B and
3B), getting to the ball and muffing it may actually reduce the number
of bases the batter and runners can take if the play stopped the ball
from getting to the corner for a double or a triple (e.g. if Lansford
were at 3B). 

	This much seems pretty clear to me. I think. Do I have it
right so far?

	But some errors are throwing errors, not muffs or glove
errors. Sometimes they have nothing to do with range or getting to the
ball,  and they often lead to extra bases (e.g. overthrows of first
usually allow a runner to take 2nd, catchers' overthrows of 2nd on
steal attempts often allow a runner to take 3rd, etc.)

	Now I know and realize that throwing errors are sometimes
called glove errors on the receiver, and vice versa, but I doubt if
these scoring problems outweigh the distinction I'm trying to make.
This distinction is probably best stated in the form of a hypothesis:

Glove errors on batted balls? hardly worth worrying about. But
throwing errors may be costly and should be distinguished from the
former.

-- 
  Regards,

  John Palmer      London, Ontario     Voice: (519) 661-3533     FAX: 672-4976
  reply to palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca    The Economics Institute for Journalists
  ============================================================================
  The New Economics: Overlapping Generalizations & Rationalized Expectorations
From: CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Reds Wire-to-Wire -- NOT! (was: Wall's '92 Predictions)
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:21:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: YaleVM.167C1F43A.CAVGEOE
Organization: Yale University

In article <3GDHBCH8@cc.swarthmore.edu>
wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:
 
>NL West:
>
>1. Reds: Ooog. The offensive line-up is young, extremely talented, and coming off a sobering-up year that will help them focus. The pitching staff
>unparalleled: you could argue five number one starters on one staff, plus messrs. Charlton and Dibble.
> Ouch. Maybe another wire to wire?!?
 
NOT! Padres 4, Reds 3, Opening Day 1992
 
Another Trivia Question: Which team, as I write, is in undisputed *LAST*
place in the NL West? :-)
 
Jeff Caveney
BASEBALL IS HERE!!!!!!!!!
GO BRAVES!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (The Econoclast)
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career)
Organization: Social Science Computing Laboratory
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:59:29 GMT

In article <204627@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
> Everyone loves to argue about MVP's, but I want to introduce a new concept:
> the LVP.  The LVP is the player who costs your team the most just by being
> in the lineup.  In order to avoid confusion (given that the very worst 
> players never make it to the majors at all), we'll make this a cumulative
> stat, so that a true LVP is LVP by virtue of being pathetic for long periods
> of time.  

...

> 
> I've scanned about half of the _TB_ ratings, and come up with a few of the
> all-time career LVP candidates.  I'll let you guess who the #1 player on the
> list so far is.  (Numbers through 1990 season.)
> 
> Player			Batting		SB runs		Fielding	Total
> 
> ???????????		 -269		  -22		  -32		-323
...


> Any guesses on The Champion?

	As you say, Dr. Dave, it is difficult to remember players who
are consistently bad because they don't usually last very long. I'm
inclined to guess Alfredo Griffin as the champ, but I doubt he has
been such a bad fielder over his entire career.

-- 

  Regards,

  John Palmer      London, Ontario     Voice: (519) 661-3533     FAX: 672-4976
  reply to palmer2@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca    The Economics Institute for Journalists
  ============================================================================
  The New Economics: Overlapping Generalizations & Rationalized Expectorations
From: dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Yankees Trivia
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:43:01 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Apr15.030949.14087@mercury.cair.du.edu> baxtman@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Captain Chaos) writes:
>Does anyone know where the Yankees first town was?  

Baltimore, wasn't it?  The original Baltimore Orioles moved to New York and
became the New York Highlanders, later the Yankees?

-- 
          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself
     dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu       | Nor is not moved by concord of sweet sound
  A poem should be dumb, / As old  | Is fit for treason, stratagems, and spoils
 medallions to the thumb.-MacLeish | 	Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice", A.V
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Red Sox vs. Jays
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:27:13 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In:
<1992Apr4.005436.14902@berlioz.nsc.com> <1992Apr5.152017.25372@tc.cornell.edu> 
<1992Apr6.022608.13277@Princeton.EDU>, among others, arguments
as to the superiority of Sox over Jays and vice versa are
given.

Let's let them each play 162 games and see which one has the
better record?

PLAY BALL!

-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: baxtman@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Captain Chaos)
Subject: 
Originator: baxtman@zephyr.cair.du.edu
Organization: University of Denver
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 03:39:27 GMT

Have you seen whom the Yankees played against the Red Sox.  I think
they aren't using their potential at all.  They benched Muelens and 
Kevin Mass and they aren't even making Tartabull play the outfield
and bernie williams isn't playing.  Well Maybe later in the year.  They
did however win and that's what counts uh.


Captain Chaos
From: abg144@milton.u.washington.edu (Andrew Gross)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: "It's outta here!"
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:19:08 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Apr9.115616.10155@cs.dal.ca> colin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Colin Edward Mac Donald) writes:
>
>	Alright, who brought back the rabbit balls from a few years back.
>	Phillies hit 3 HR's in one inning, Cecil has 3 already, a couple
>	of guys in the AL(who were they?) hit their first homers EVER.
>	Very strange...

Yes, any season that begins with Cangelosi and Valle hitting homeruns in the
opening series has gotta make you wonder.

BTW, I was at opening night at the kingdome, and would have SWORN that both
Valle's and O'Brien's home runs were just long fly balls.  Of course, I've 
only attended about a half dozen games at the dome, so it might just be the
park effect; but I watched an awful lot of games at Riverfront and Wrigley
(two decent homerun parks :-) ), and I'd bet money that both of those shots
would have been outs at either park (well, maybe not O'Brien's with the wind
blowing out at Wrigley).

Anyway, just idle speculation based on anecdotal evidence and too small of a
sample size...



"It is generally considered obvious that government should not, indeed cannot,
legislate morality.  But in fact it does so, frequently; it should do so more
often; and it never does anything more important... The idea that governments
should be neutral in major conflicts about social values is only slightly more
peculiar than the idea that government can be neutral."  -- George F. Will
  abg144@hardy.u.washington.edu | Andrew B. Gross | abg1@johnjohn.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Subject: Re: Most Likely To Lose No-Hitters
Reply-To: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 23:53:03 GMT


In a previous article, mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) says:

>As everyone is surely aware by now, Matt Young has now joined Andy Hawkins in
>the "pitch an unofficial no-hitter and lose" category.
>
>Matt Young and Andy Hawkins.
>
>For some reason, this seems, I don't know, fair and just.  This sort of thing
>never happens to the Nolan Ryan's, Dwight Gooden's, or Roger Clemens' of the
>world.  It happens to the Andy Hawkins' and Matt Young's.
>
>My list of "most likely to pitch unofficial no-hitters and lose":
>
>Eric Show
>Storm Davis
>Jose DeLeon
>Frank Tanana
>Tommy John (if he tries a comeback)

Randy Johnson
Jose DeJesus

-- 
Kimon Zachary			"I stand by all the misstatements that
JHU School of Med.			I've made." --Dan Quayle
Baltimore, MD			
Another Greek from Massachusetts
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Josh Gibson (and the Negro Leagues in general)
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:09:31 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

>I don't see Gibson challenging Ruth on the basis of those 190 AB.  As a
>catcher, he would have had less playing time, and he would have lost some
>of that power playing in the larger parks of the day, plus whatever
>differences in pitching (though Ruth would have lost some power not being
>able to face the affirmative action white pitchers who would have been
>displaced by better Negro League pitchers.)

I had once read that Josh Gibson's baseball career spanned 26 years.  The
McMillan (sp?) Baseball Encyclopedia does not give 26 years worth of stats
for Gibson.  If anyone knows another source of Negro League stats, could they
please post it?  Thanks.
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: How's Scott Erickson so far?
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:54:34 GMT
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

Scott was blasted in the 5th inning of the second game
versus the texas rangers after the Twins were leading
6-0.

Looks like he still has the odd pitch which will force
the hitters to  hit a lot of ground balls.

I doubt, whether he will be as menacing as he was in the
first half of 1991.


Boy, those Rangers are awsome with the bats. Even a 10
run lead is no comfort zone against them. On any
given day their mighty hitters can butcher the opposing
pitching. I would hate to pitch against the rangers
if I were making my debue. Considering this, Pat mahomes
did a good job after a shaky 1st inning in which he was
blasted for a 3-run homer.

s.h
------------------------------------------------------
Win or Lose, Forever Twins.....
From: IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Curse of the Bambino?
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:02:28 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

Believe it or not, another part of the deal between the Sox and the Yanks
when Ruth was traded was that the Red Sox could keep Fenway. The Yankees
ownership had some claim to the park (they owned a part of the mortgage
or something). I'll do a little research to get the exact details, but
it's true!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson v Nolan Ryan -- Stat-head call to arms!
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 14:25:58 EDT

In article <cubsfan.703205148@camelot>
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
 
>
>Hey, Jeff what stat are you using to compare a pitcher (Ryan) to
>a hitter (Henderson)?
>
     Hey, Michael it's called Total Baseball Rating, and you'll find
it in Total Baseball...ever heard of it?
 
>"Twice as good," yeah whatever....Ryan's thrown 7 no-hitters, or
>about nearly twice as many as the next best pitcher...when Henderson
>has 1500 steals, call me back!
 
     Actually, according to TBR, Rickey was three times as good as Ryan
but I have some problems with using league average as the zero point for
rate of performance rather than replacement level, so I just typed "twice
as good" to give Ryan a break.
     ON A RELATED NOTE, it seems I've been taking some serious shit on
the net for saying what I did -- I've been called fucking nuts, for
example, and then there are the people who consider "class" a factor in
determining how good a ballplayer is.  Well, change "class" to "race" and
you'd capture the opinion of a lot of anti-Rickey, pro-Ryan people...not
that I'm accusing anyone on the net of being racist, but you bet there
were a lot of racist Americans who just loved it when the press deified
Ryan and vilified Rickey.
     Everyone who's responded on the net has been against me -- where are
the stat-heads to come to my defense?  You can read the numbers in Total
Baseball, or do you have some reason for believing Rickey is *not* hands
down superior to Nolan Ryan?  All of you who have spent time debating the
guy who thinks Alfredo Griffin is better than Tony Fernandez, don't let
anybody get the idea that the r.s.bb consensus is that Ryan is better
than Rickey!  Stat-heads of the world, unite!  (I won't name names, but
you know who you are.)
 
Jeff Caveney
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Mikemoe)
Subject: Clinched the Division Title
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:11:45 GMT

Interesting note:

Looking in the paper today, "Austin American-Statesman" and
in the stats/standings section they list the standings...all teams
only playing one game and on the bottom is....

x-Clinched division title


yep, I'm going to keep my eyes open for the next few days to 
see who's the first to clinch. Any day now....  :)


Mike

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: SASCHO <SASCHO@mvs.sas.com>
Subject: Re: DUMB inexcusable play
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 11:26:00 GMT
X-Bytes: 1940

>As I'm sure is obvious to everyone by now, I equate "can't be measured" with
>"doesn't matter".  However, the stuff you're describing should be measurable.
>If batters really do "press" and hit worse after seeing lots of DPs early in
>the game, that will show up in the numbers.  I have no trouble believing that
>some kinds of play affect team morale adversely, but I've yet to see anything
>to back up the notion that players with good morale outperform those same
>players with bad morale.  That, too, should be measurable, just by comparing
>enough plate appearances of obvious high-morale and low-morale situations...
 
I think it was you who stated earlier that you couldn't believe you
got sucked into this. Well, I'm not going to get sucked into this.
Over-analysis has officially become an art form. We're going to have
to agree to disagree. Besides, the original post was about Coleman
being thrown out at third to end the inning. I stated that you never
make the third out at third. I got bombarded with stats about whether
the probabilities justified the risk, and correlation coefficients and
R squared values and every other statistical term you can think of. The
point is, Coleman made a dumb out that took the Mets out of an inning.
Therefore, it was dumb. If he had a 90% chance of being safe doesn't
matter, cuz that 10% is what happened. He was 100% out, and the Mets
were 100% on defense, and in baseball the defense doesn't ever score.
 
Look what happened, I got sucked into this. Damn.  :-)
 
Chuck Oertli
SAS INSTITUTE INC.
AUSTIN, TX                                   SASCHO@MVS.SAS.COM
>
>
>--
>          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself
>     dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu       | Nor is not moved by concord of sweet sound
>  A poem should be dumb, / As old  | Is fit for treason, stratagems, and spoils
> medallions to the thumb.-MacLeish |    Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice", A.V
>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jjd3@po.CWRU.Edu (James J. Dibenedetto)
Subject: The Mighty Yankee Machine Rolls On!
Reply-To: jjd3@po.CWRU.Edu (James J. Dibenedetto)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 16:15:51 GMT


4-0!!!!!!!!!

Check it out - the Yankees are getting good pitching and good hitting,
and they're rolling over all comers in the American League East!!!

The Magic Number for clinching the division is only 158!!!

(April IS the time for hopes and dreams in baseball, after all)


-- 
James John DiBenedetto (jjde@po.cwru.edu, V064QPCD@ubvms.buffalo.edu)
Law Student, State University of New York at Buffalo
always remember...
                  It happens sometimes.  People just explode.  Natural causes.
From: jkl@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (jon.k.lyons)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Karros at first?
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:42:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Holmdel, NJ

>> Fred at CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu asks:
>>	How many of you agree with me when I say that Eric Karros should
>>have the spot at first base for the Dodgers permanently?  The boy's got
>>awesome power and he's got decent speed.
 
>  TSAO, FREDDIE WEI answers:
>     The problem is that Strawberry, Davis, Butler, and Daniels are
>all too good to sit.  Plus no one is interested in Daniels in a trade.
>So there's nowhere to put Karros.

Okay.  I can deal with playing the above-mentioned four primarily, but
why is Benzinger getting so much playing time, and why oh why is he batting
third???  Sometimes I think Lasorda lest this lefty-righty thing get out
of hand.
-- 
Jon Lyons                                            jon.k.lyons@att.com
AT&T Bell Laboratories                               att!jon.k.lyons
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Biggio
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:36:51 GMT
Organization: Yo! Yo!   

In <bmt8q4.34a@wang.com> bst@wang.com (Bruce Tannenbaum) writes:

>spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>>In <0dvAieC00UhW89hLRC@andrew.cmu.edu> King-Han Yao <ky0l+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>>>Can someone please inform me why/when/how Biggio became a second baseman?

>>>I've never heard of another case where a catcher transformed into a
>>>second baseman.

>>Probably that's because its never happened before.

>Wait a second (no pun intended.)!  Didn't Geno Petralli once play second
>base???  Where the heck is my Baseball Guide????????

I think we're talking permanent, long term position shift here, not an
occassional or even semi-regular appearance at the position for 1 or 2
years.

Greg 
-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gobrien@trooa.enet.dec.com (Glenn O'Brien)
Subject: Re: Yawn (was Toronto and Yankees babble)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: 15 APR 92 20:36:30    


In article <texdude.703349124@camelot>, texdude@camelot.bradley.edu (Philip Allen) writes...
>In <1992Apr15.131226.18436@descartes.waterloo.edu> l2wang@lambert.waterloo.edu (  Lei Wang  ) writes:
> 
>Is it just me, or does everyone think that Blue Jays fans are getting a
>little cocky this year?  (No, are they?)  It's not like they won the World
>Series or even the AL Championship.  In fact, they only won their division
>in the last few games.  

Rather than join in yet another pointless argument about the merits of the 1992 
Blue Jays, I would like address the margin of victory last year.  Toronto won 
by 7 games over both Boston and Detroit.  And Boston did not sit in first from 
June to October (Detroit tied for one day).  The Jays never gave up the lead.  
The above makes it appear they just made it to the playoffs.  While the Jays 
won 91 games, the Sox were three losses from a .500 record.

Glenn
From: dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Reds Wire-to-Wire -- NOT! (was: Wall's '92 Predictions)
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:08:59 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <167C1F43A.CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:
>In article <3GDHBCH8@cc.swarthmore.edu>
>wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall) writes:
> 
>NOT! Padres 4, Reds 3, Opening Day 1992
> 
>Another Trivia Question: Which team, as I write, is in undisputed *LAST*
>place in the NL West? :-)
>Jeff Caveney
>BASEBALL IS HERE!!!!!!!!!
>GO BRAVES!

I think you were the guy who made fun of Rob Dibble too.  Well, would you rather
have Pena or Dibble?

As I remember, the Reds swept the A's when they were in the Series last, 
whereas the Braves choked.

By the way, this response is not to your joke above, it is to the previous
post, which I did not get a chance to respond to earlier.

--dave
From: psaviz@tcad04.intel.com (Peter Saviz)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Dodgers, Angels schedule question
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:39:16 GMT
Reply-To: psaviz@tcad04.intel.com (Peter Saviz)


I'll be in L.A. the week of June 8-14 and I was wondering if either
the Dodgers or Angels are playing at home that week.  If someone has
a schedule for that week, I'd appreciate it if they'd mail it to me.
Thanks.

Peter

Go Yankees!  (5-0!)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: s5170748@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (THAN LEE)
Subject: Quick Series trivia question
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:45:00 GMT

  Who were the only brothers to hit homeruns in the same World Series game?
 Names and teams, please.  And (for bonus points) the year.

Than Lee
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: NL Roster questions...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 04:03:27 GMT

In article <2817@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> hjeat@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Jerry Eaton) writes:
>Mike Simms was out of reassignment-to-the minors options, and the Astros
>traded Simms in the last few days of Spring training to the Philles for RHP
>Jason Grimsley, who had major control problems last year. Grimsley was assigned
>to the Astros AAA team in Tuscon (PCL). I don't know if the Phillies are
>carrying Simms on the major league roster or not.

Actually, it was RHP Curt Schilling who was traded for Grimsley.  I think Simms
was sent back (outright) to Tucson.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Charter Member of the Acker-o-phobics Anonymous
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)