HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:36:12 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul30.205909.8171@ils.nwu.edu> mccoy@ils.nwu.edu writes:

>When the potato blight struck, the
>importance of the potato in their diet was reflected in the widespread
>famine that occurred when this potatoes died.  

There were a couple of other factors that worsened the situation, as well.
To begin with, *all* of the potato plants in Ireland were descended from
the same 3 original plants.  No "hardy hybrids"; the plants were all but
identical genetically, and thus had the same disease susceptibilities.  

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
From: v128juxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SCHUYJUANNAH)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Historic Food
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:46:00 GMT
Organization: SUNY@Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92211.150749U21187@uicvm.uic.edu>, U21187@uicvm.uic.edu (John Schulien) writes...
>As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
>fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
>an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?

Well, I know a short-liv'd cereal that cash'd in with the Star Wars series
call'd C-3POs. This Kellog's product came out and disappear'd in the year 1984.

Anyone remember this???

Tia aka I should know, I us'd to eat the stuff.....not bad.
From: lafolle@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (90262000)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Garam
Date: 30 Jul 92 04:50:30 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
	
	No, I am not talking about "Garam Masala" or any other such
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu

Indian spice concoctions.

	The Romans (we're talking the Republic and the Empire here,
not modern-day) were known to use a particular sauce called "garam",
which was made from fermented fish and a few other ingredients.  Since
learning about this sauce, I've experemented a bit with Thai cooking,
which uses a fermented fish sauce in much the same way the Japanese
use soy sauce.  It occurred to me that there probably wouldn't be
a huge difference.

	I've talked to a few people who have tried to recreate garam, and
they have universally failed to create something edible.  It would make
sense to me that such a thing would happen-- if I were try to brew
my own soy sauce starting with soy beans I'm sure it would come out 
wretched, and the margin for error in fermented fish could be *revolting*.

	Has anyone out there experemented with Garam?  Or perhaps
know of any Historical Roman recipies that call for it?  I'd *love*
to try to make this work.


						--- The Madwoman
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Coffee
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:33:23 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article F3A5C0C0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu, oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu () writes:
|In article <92Jul30.481@infon.jhu.edu>, croberts@infon.jhu.edu (Chris Roberts) writes:
|>Would you beleive that a debate raged for
|>several years on whether coffee was a pagan drink
|>fit only for muslims, or if Christians could lawfully drink it?
|>The pope ( I forget which pope)  finally accepted an appeal, tasted it, and
|>pronounced it "truly a Christian drink" (!!)
|>Will try to dig up reference.
|
|So, then, thinking logically (if that's possible at this hour), the Mormons
|rejected it because the Pope approved it?

Well, cute, but I don't think that Joseph Smith had any idea that the Pope
approved it.  

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman)
Subject: Re: Ha!
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:04:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
>===========================================================================
>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>===========================================================================

And bad spelling comes from spelling "judgment" as "judgement" ......


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once." David Hume
|||  clc5q@virginia.edu (Clark L. Coleman)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Garam
Originator: dadams@cherry
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:28:48 CDT


  108116@adpdp2.lanl.gov (108116) writes:
> 
> >	The Romans (we're talking the Republic and the Empire here,
> >not modern-day) were known to use a particular sauce called "garam",
> >which was made from fermented fish and a few other ingredients.  Since
> >learning about this sauce, I've experemented a bit with Thai cooking,
> >which uses a fermented fish sauce in much the same way the Japanese
> >use soy sauce.  It occurred to me that there probably wouldn't be
> >a huge difference.
> 
> Take a look at the ingredients of (pardon spelling) Worchestershire Sauce.
> 
> My roman civ lecturer at UCSB said w.s. is a direct derivitive of a 
> fish based sauce favoured by the roman soldiers, and that perhaps 
> it was the only known remaining trace of such.


So what bacteria or micro-organism is involved in the fermentation process
of garam?  What about Worchestershire sauce?

--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
-- 
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen C. Miller)
Subject: Re: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Eferences: <1992Jul29.194924.24069@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> <RAJEN.92Jul29204544@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:22:42 GMT



aPotatoes.  

Potatoes originated in South America.  Brought over to Europe relatively
early.  After some initial trepidation caught on like wildfire in many
Northern European countries.  Largely responsible for population boom
between 1600-1800 and beyond, hence emmigration.  Ironic or interesting:
New World sends po to Europe, waits a couple centuries, gets a couple
millions people.  Sorta like compound interest.

But I don't know anything about the potato's introduction to Indian
cooking.  Where it can be wonderful.


-- 
--------------------
=
(former rock star turned grad student)
Steve Miller	 		    stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley)
Subject: Re: Tofu
Organization: University of Toronto Physics/Astronomy/CITA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:21:15 GMT

In article <Bs7L9E.Fv5@acsu.buffalo.edu> v128juxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SCHUYJUANNAH) writes:
>
>I was wondering.....what is the origin of the so-call'd health food 'tofu'?

I am not sure why you put it in quotes or refer to it as "so-call'd",
but tofu has a very long and honourable history.  Basically, it is just
what happens when you make soy milk by pulverizing and then heating soy 
beans in water and then curdle it by throwing in a small amount of 
(usually) magnesium sulfate.  The curds are then pressed into a block.  
The roughage from the soy beans, called okara, which had previously been 
strained from the milk can be used in cooking also.  Most of the fat
is removed from the milk during the heating process as it rises to the
top and can be easily scooped off.  The resulting tofu is relatively
low in fat, and high in protein which is perhaps why it is thought of
as a health food.  It can be eaten raw, but is rather bland and is best
marinated and then stir fried.  It is also very good deep fried then
stir fried with veggies.

As for its historical origin, the name is Japanese, although it may have
been independently invented in China and perhaps elsewhere.  The process
is so simple that any agricultural society near to the ocean (magnesium 
sulfate is extracted from seaweed I think) could easily have developed it.
It appears to have been around for several centuries in both mainland
China and in Japan.  

Hope this helps.
	Kevin
From: kaz@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Karen Fegley)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Tofu
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:21:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.230959.21848@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu  
(Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
> 
> People who are interested in learning more about tofu should look into the
> Book_of_Tofu by Wm. Shurtleff and (damn, forgot the other name -- Ayogi?).

Akiko Aoyagi, I believe.  Shurtleff and Aoyagi
also have good books on tempeh and on miso.

Karen
Xref: sparky rec.food.historic:6 alt.best.of.internet:49
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wednesday, 29 Jul 1992 15:06:00 CDT
From: John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,alt.best.of.internet
Subject: Re: Ha!

Nice quote, Brian, oops, I mean BD! :-)

In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU
(Life is real?) says:
>
>Sorry for being a pain, but here it goes....
>
>HA!  HA!   I GOT THE FIRST POST!    I GOT THE FIRST POST!  HA!  HAAA!!!
>
>BD (I'm too embarassed to print my full name...)
>
>--
>===========================================================================
>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>===========================================================================
From: cmylod@nl.oracle.com (Colum Mylod)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: potatoes introduced in europe
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:21:54 GMT
Organization: Oracle Europe

In article <1992Jul30.163405.15624@PacBell.COM>, rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
|> Legend has it that Sir Walter Raleigh grew the first potatoes
|> in Europe in his garden at Youghal, Co. Waterford, Ireland.

The legend is well enough founded that there's a hotel in Youghal named
after the man. Youghal is in Co. Cork, not Waterford.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: tlh8c@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Thomas Lee Horton)
Subject: Potatoes
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:25:02 GMT

My undergraduate course in "Economic Botany" about a million years 
ago taught me, I believe, that potatoes are of new-world origin, and
were brought back from America by the /conquistadores/.  This
would explain the name, which is an English courruption of a 
Spanish word (batata) which is a corruption of a Native American
[Taino tribe] word (mbatauta??).

According to a very old dictionary I have here in my office,
the potato is originally native to the Peruvian Andes, and was introduced
into Europe about 1585.  It did not become an important farm crop 
until after considerable experimentation by several European plant
breeders.

The sweet potato was eaten first, and in the 16th and 17th centuries were
believed to be aphrodisiacs; whence Shakespeare's usage of the term
"potato finger" (though I know not from which work this phrase comes).

That's it, according to Merriam-Webster!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THOMAS HORTON - U.VA. FRENCH DEPT - CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA 22904
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv 

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: mccoy@ils.nwu.edu (Jim Mccoy)
Subject: Re: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Reply-To: mccoy@ils.nwu.edu
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:59:09 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.194924.24069@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>, julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
> [...]  But that brings up a question.  Was
> the potato substituted willy-nilly for turnips in Europe?  I know
> in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
> it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  
> But why the push to grow them then?  Do they give better yields than turnips?
> Do they grow places that turnips don't?  (Note:  I know absolutely
> nothing about turnips).

One reason potatoes were farmed so heavily is because they produce more
calories of food per acre than any other crop.  They will grow in the poor,
rocky soil that is otherwise unsuited for agriculture, and I believe they
do some nitrogen fixing in the soil (i know, "i didn't know it was
broken.." :)

I seem to remember that the potato allowed for such a great improvement in
food output per area of land that the potato became the primary food
component in places like Ireland, etc.  Increased efficiency in food
production (more food per area of land) allowed for population increases
without the necessity of increasing land used for agriculture (if there
even was any land available...)  When the potato blight struck, the
importance of the potato in their diet was reflected in the widespread
famine that occurred when this potatoes died.  

Generally, you will find that government(s) will only "push" a crop that
has export value.  No one needed to force people to plant potatoes, it was
the most efficient plant for many regions and therefore dominated the food
supply.

jim

-- 
------------------------------< Jim McCoy >------------------------------------
j-mccoy@nwu.edu                     |  "I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm
mccoy@ils.nwu.edu                   |   having an old friend for dinner..."
#include <disclaimer.h>             |              -Dr. Hannibal Lector
-----------------------<"To thine own self be true">--------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin)
Subject: 1762 housekeeping
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 02:04:26 GMT

I have a copy of Elizabeth  Raffald's ``The experienced English Housekeeper,
for the Use and Ease of Ladies, Housekeepers, Cooks &c, Written purely from
Practice, and dedicated to the Hon. Lady Elizabeth Warburton, Whom the
Author lately served as Housekeeper, Consisting of near Nine hundred
Original Receipts [sic], most of which [sic!] never appeared in print''.
Dated 1762 (actually MDCCLXXXII, but it seems that there's an extra `x')

Many of these recipes area quite interesting.

Here's a short one -- I could post more if there is interest, although
since I don't have one of those Scanner things there's a limit.


To make Raspberry Brandy  [p. 336]

GATHER the raspberries when the sun is
hot on them, and as soon as ever you have got
them, to every five quarts of raspberries put one
quart of the best brandy, boil a quart of water
five minutes with a pound of double refined sugar
in it, and pour it boiling hot on the berries,
let it stand all night, then add nine quarts
more brandy, stir it about very well, put it in
a stone bottle, and let it stand a month or six
weeks ; when fine bottle it.


To make Bath Cakes.	[p. 271]

RUB half a pound of butter into a pound of
flour, and one spoonful of good barm, warm		[barm - note 1]
some cream, and make it into a light paste, set
it to the fire to rise, when you make them up,
take four ounces of carraway [sic] comfits, work part
of them in, and strew the rest on the top, make		[comfit - note 2]
them into a round cake, the size of a French roll,
bake them on sheet tins, and send them in hot
for breakfast.

notes (taken from Chambers English Dictionary):

barm - froth of fermenting yeast; yeast
comfits - sugar-coated seeds


Lee


-- 
Liam Quin, lee@sq.com, SoftQuad, Toronto, 416 239-4801; the barefoot programmer
  lq-text (Unix text retrieval pacakge) mailing list: lq-text-request@sq.com
  latest released version: 1.10; 1.12 coming in August probably
  ftp: ftp.cs.toronto.edu in directory: pub
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: harlan@crchh347.bnr.ca (Bruce Harlan)
Subject: definition of 'historic food'		 
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:40:19 GMT

So, what makes a food 'historic'? 25-year-old twinkies may indeed be 'historic',
but I have difficulty classifying them as 'food'. Sounds like an interesting
group if we can decide what we're talking about. I have some recipes for some
odd things that I have not yet tried (raccoon, possum, etc.). i would be happy	
to share if there is an interest. 		
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:14:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.151133.16729@NOC.Vitalink.COM> <roy_wells@qm.vitalink.com> (<roy_wells@qm.vitalink.com>) writes:
>
> greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) asks:
>
>>Anyone good a good formula for the above?
> 
>Having eaten my fair share of hardtack at Civil War reenactments, 
>I can attest to the fact that there is no such thing as a "good" 
>receipe for hardtack.

Sure there is. Come to Newfoundland, and you'll get the best hard-tac
and sweet-tac world-wide. :)

Andrew
From: appel@xcf.Berkeley.EDU (Shannon D. Appel)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Coffee
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:04:30
Organization: csua
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

We've had constant arguments around my place concerning when Coffee
became available in Europe [I'm especially interested in France and
Italy].  Can anyone give dates backed by solid historical references?
I'm particularly interested in knowing if it was available at the start
of the 13th century.

Shannon
From: feland@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Andrew Feland)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: <none>
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:37:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Jul30.123724.14316
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


RECIPES!  RECIPES!  I'M DYING FOR RECIPES!!
From: TONY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Tony Roder)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Honey cakes
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:05:08 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <2558@nlsun1.oracle.nl>, jdurbin@nl.oracle.com (Jason Durbin) says:
>
>Sounds like your describing what my Lebanese relatives made on
>special occasions. I doubt if there are too many recorded pre-
>1600 recipes for this.
>
>The desert is made (I don't have an exact recipe - I just wing it)
>using filo dough layered using lotsa butter with a mixture of
>crushed walnuts, brown sugar, allspice and cinnamon. After baking
>to a golden brown, sprinkle with honey (or drench as some are
>wont to do) and (yechh, but traditional -- rose water -- makes it
>too much like eating perfume for me).

You're describing what is known as 'baklava' under any number of spellings
throughout the MiddleEast, Russia, the Balkans.  Splendid stuff.  But not
exactly honey cakes... which I remember as a sort of coarse pound cake
with honey, cinamon, and other aromatics.  Also MiddleEastern, Jewish
(traditional for Seder, I believe), and EastEurope.  Good with strong black
tea, with lots of lemon.

-----------------------------------
Tony Roder, speaking his mind .....
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Hawfiskur (not sure how it's spelled, and was Re: Garam)
Date: 31 Jul 1992 17:26:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul31.161556.12027@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
"dried cod.  The cod is placed on drying racks by the shore, for quite some
"period of time (unfortunately, I forget how long).  It becomes quite dry
"and stiff/chewy (rather like ... well ... old boots).  It still still quite
"common in Iceland and is perfectly edible when smeared with some butter
"(though hardly a delicacy).

Ah, yes, that's the stuff that W. H. Auden described as being like eating
the calluses off the bottom of your feet.  (Smeared with butter.)
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: definition of 'historic food'
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:22:57 GMT
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <1992Jul30.194019.13746@bnr.ca>, harlan@crchh347.bnr.ca (Bruce Harlan) writes:
. Sounds like an interesting
>group if we can decide what we're talking about. I have some recipes for some
>odd things that I have not yet tried (raccoon, possum, etc.). i would be happy	
>to share if there is an interest. 		
> 
I'm curious, too.  Is this group to be a potential recipe exchange as well as a
forum for discussion?  Or should recipes stay in rec.food.cooking?
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: alan@dragon.acadiau.ca (Alan McKay)
Subject: Lobster food for peasants ( Was: potatoes introduced in europe)
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:44:13 GMT

tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:


>julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>  
>>I know in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
>>it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  

This reminds me of a story I heard that at the turn of the century
lobster was regarded as food for peasants.  Can anyone verify this?

-- 
--
Alan W. McKay		| (902)542-2201.158	| Wolfville, N.S. Canada
alan@acadiau.ca		| Acadia University	| SUB Box 6008, B0P 1Z1
----------------------------------------- My Canada includes Quebec -----
From: cigno@sgi.com (Kevin Walsh)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: potatoes introduced in europe
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:53:03 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <2561@nlsun1.oracle.nl> cmylod@nl.oracle.com (Colum Mylod) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.163405.15624@PacBell.COM>, rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>|> Legend has it that Sir Walter Raleigh grew the first potatoes
>|> in Europe in his garden at Youghal, Co. Waterford, Ireland.
>
>The legend is well enough founded that there's a hotel in Youghal named
>after the man. Youghal is in Co. Cork, not Waterford.


	Given that the potato(e) was an introduced food, perhaps the
	legend has some relation with events in history.  However, I
	think one should not underestimate the capacity of the aristocracy
	to take credit where none is due them.  I always amazed to hear 
	people say that it was the Earl of Sandwich who invented the 
	sandwich--as if the sandwich were something that needed invention.  

	At most, I could accept that he made it socially acceptable to 
	serve sandwiches at the social gatherings of his class.  It is 
	simply not believable that people have not been eating sandwiches
	for as long as they have had bread or burritos or what have you.    
	People are experimental and constantly recombine materials and
	techniques just to see what happens.  I similarly amazed when 
	people argue over what nation "invented" pasta, when such a thing
	is bound to occur to any cook with a little flour (not necessarily
	wheat flour) a pot of boiling water.

	yours in peevish ranting
--
------
"I've always thought of Boston traffic as Brownian motion with
evil intent."  -- Don Coolidge coolidge@speaker.sgi.com