HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: rpg:  combat sequence
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:19:02 GMT

This is a general request for ideas on what exactly the sequence of events 
should be in small-scale combat.  This request is mainly directed at RPG's.

By sequence of events, I mean things such as should the attacker in one 
roll decide the full outcome of the success of the hit?  Or should 
something like the attacker rolls to hit, the defender rolls to parry, be 
used?

Perhaps for more cinematic, dramatic fights (eg. the sword fight between 
the hero swordsman and the evil pirate captain) there should be a sequence 
more like this:

    - Hero rolls for beginning a lunge/thrust at the villain's shoulder
    - Villain rolls to dodge left
    - Hero rolls to jump to the right
    - Villain rolls to whip sword around at hero's neck
    - Hero rolls to bring up sword to parry
    - Villain rolls to avoid parry and hit neck
    - Hero rolls to parry.
    - Villain rolls to kick Hero in knee
    - Hero rolls to sidestep
    - Villain rolls to [etc...]

It's drawn out, but a lot more tense for the players if done well.  Of 
course, you wouldn't want to do this every fight.

So, ideas?

  --- Robert Bridson (usign the account of Jbridson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb)
Subject: Re: Virtual walking???
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:48:23 GMT

In article <BzEpL2.Auz@max.physics.sunysb.edu> mmoss@csws17.ic.sunysb.edu (Matthew D Moss) writes:
>What detracted from the experience, though, was the
>un-physicalness of the game. It's supposed to have you running
>around this world firing guns at one another and dodging bullets.
>I found myself exaggerating (sp?) the fancy dodges to compensate
>for having to use a button to walk.

The one and only research talk I've heard on VR suggested that things
worked out best if you had a 'vehicle' that corresponded to the
physical constraints of the room you were in, had your normal walking
correspond to moving around the vehicle, and had you do something
special to move the vehicle around.  So perhaps VR would (currently)
be better suited to vehicular combat? or fights in a 'confined space'?
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: FUDGE Dice
Date: 19 Dec 92 21:34:30 GMT
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.

I wrote:

>         Result above or below relevant trait (+ to die roll):
>Mod:  -5   -4   -3   -2   -1  (-)    0  (+)   +1   +2   +3   +4   +5
>+0     0    3    7   11   15  (36)  28  (36)  15   11    7    3    0
>+1     0    1    5    9   13  (28)  27  (45)  17   13    9    5    1
>+2     0    0    3    7   11  (21)  26  (55)  19   15   11    7    3
                                     ^^
That should be 24 - sorry for the poor math.  Although a slight error,
the corrected figure actually makes a lovelier graph!

>+3     0    0    1    5    9  (15)  21  (64)  19   17   13    9    6

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: SOND, was RE: a New line
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:09:10 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University


	Wait a moment. What exactly are people looking for in this? 

	When I first saw this, I was picturing something like NET.RPG - 
a realistic, generic system specialized to deal with young PC's, which 
seemed like a neat idea because it is something not handled well in other 
RPG's. After all, children are not just adults with lower Strength, 
Intelligence, etc. Skills must be modified to include some of the basic 
motor and mental skills which adults have which are just developing in 
children, etc. Some of the situations mentioned were an Arthurian setting, 
Horror (Stephen King's 'It'), and some others. 

	OTOH, Steve Spencer, at least, sees a genre-specific 'silly' RPG
about children of our culture. 

mfp+@CS.CMU.EDU (Michael Polis) writes:
>stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer) writes:
>The way you "kill" an opponent is by making them cry. While crying, a 
>child cannot fight or use skills, and will frequently just go home.
...
>I think characters should be looking for entertainment points, which come 
>from play, video games, and adventures,...

	Well, I suggest a look at Teenagers from Outer Space as a model 
for this sort of thing. 

>
>The scale should be geared towards children, since they are the players.
>You should retire from the campaign when you get too old.  Adults fit
>into the category of gods or monsters (a superintelligent race of giants).
>Maybe kids should get 2d6 on abilities, and adults 4d6. 
...
>Agility may be an exception to this, in that children may well rate higher
>than adults in this area.

	Some sort of 'willpower' stat would be an important stat to 
represent growing responsibility - which is not neccessarily too well 
connected with age. Also, since PC's will presumably be exceptional 
children, I would be careful about absolute limits, recalling the feats 
of child prodigies. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "ALERT: /Earth is 75% full - please delete 
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | all extraneous people."
Columbia University         | 
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: FUDGE: Scale
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
	<1992Dec14.215008.8184@rchland.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 01:27:21 GMT

BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>
>Rate each creature on a scale with human as norm.  Perhaps pounds could be
>used but I will use some examples.
>
>+2=dragon
>+1=giant 
> 0=human
>-1=normal dog
>-2=cat, bunny
>-3=mouse
>-4=gnat
>etc.
> . . . [much deleted]>
>Perhaps someone else can think of a more FUDGEish way to express the above.
>I don't think this is too complicated as it isn't something that comes up
>too often.

This sounds a bit complicated in its present form, but maybe I could
FUDGE it a bit.  I'll try.  I like the basic sound of it, and admit my
solution is also a bit complicated.

>Note:  Especially with things very much smaller on the scale if they are
>moving they ought to be very hard to hit.

Good point - thanks!

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Organization: Junior, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:01:37 -0500 
From: "Peter F. Delaney" <pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FUDGE Healing?
	<1992Dec12.171548.7028@oz.plymouth.edu>

sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:

> "Peter F. Delaney" <pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>On second thought, you probably don't want to add complexity here.  Any
>>additions are going to be restrictive, not helpful.  I still think this
>>is sticky, but the rules should *NOT* address the issue, to retain
>>generality as well as to allow individuals to retailor the rules quickly
>>based on the situation.  Apologies for the classic no-brainer on this
>>one.
>
>Not a no-brainer at all.  In fact, I *have* addressed the issue, and
>ammended the appropriate section, based on a train of thought started
>by your earlier post.  Your name goes in the Suggestions section -
>thanks!

You got me nervous there, for a sec, but I took a quick look at the
changes - and was relieved to see guidelines on quick retailoring, and
not hard and fast rules.  Nicely done!

.
Pe+eR Delaney, CMU, Pittburgh, PA ... Compuserve: 73750,3667
Internet: blackclove+@cmu.edu ...  Local: pd1x
"I do not question our existence, I only question our modern needs."
-Pearl Jam
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.OZ.AU (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:04:11 GMT

|> If you look at literature, I mean, *good* fantasy literature, that's
|> usually how it is impemented, AD&D type cash&carry magic just doesn't
|> cut it :-)  Think of Gandalf and Galadriel, Merlin and Morgan LeFay.
|> Whitches in the middle ages.
|> 

Thats because you would be bored reading a novel about someone who has
absolutely no problems because they had all-powerful magic.
ie:  There once was a powerful magician named Fred.  One day Fred
encountered a great big ferocious lion that wanted to eat him.  He
zarked it with a fireball and went on his way.  THE END.

Not exactly jam-packed with tension, is it?  However, there are stories
out there where the principle characters have access to powerful magic,
and so do the enemies.  In a FRP world, you would expect magic to be
fairly common in that 1 or 2 party members usually have some magic of
some sort.  As long as the possible enemies have the same access to
magic, the balance stays adequete for suspense.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:33:10 -0500 
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FUDGE Healing?
	<1992Dec10.220127.6816@oz.plymouth.edu>

In the system I am likely to use next (fairly simple), wounds are
assigned a severity rating of 1-5, 5 being immediately life threatening.
The more severity, the more important medical attention becomes. Also,
wounds have a type: bash, cut, slash.

   Bash is simple cuncussive damage. High severity means internal
bleeding, broken bones or organ damage.
   Cut is a normal laceration. Bleeding drains from health (average
person has 20 health), 'severity' amount every two minutes. (Skill and
attribute penalties acrue with health drain)
   Slash is a SEVERE laceration. A major artery, the heart, etc has been
cut. 'severity' is drained per two SECONDS.

    For a normal human, EVERY wound is healed one severity point per
month. Also, wound effects depend on location. A bash severity 4 in the
upper leg means that the thigh bone has been broken severely, with
massive tissue damage (like you had a car or wall fall on your leg). It
will take about 2 months before it would be safe to walk, and about 2
more months before your leg has completed healing.


    This system has the advantage of coupling with subjectivity easily,
which I like. For me, I handle hit locations intuitively, with weapons
having maximum severity. Different hit locations will have different
maximum damage. ie- a 9mm bullet wound to the leg will probably do
cutting damage of 1-3, unless it hits an artery, in which case it may be
cutting 4, or possibly slash of 1-2.

Comments?

-Me


Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: FUDGE Dice
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 01:36:01 GMT

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>
>	I would still vote for the 2d6 and modify levels, allowing this as 
>one of the increasingly expansive options. 

Okay, thanks for the vote.  I don't think I'll have three optional dice
mechanisms in the Addenda, though: in fact, the two that are currently
there feel too many.  I may just drop both of the current addenda dice
techniques and just go with one in the main text, and one in the
addenda.  Whether I use the 2d6 or 2d10 as the main text, though, I
don't know - waiting for other votes and arguments to come in . . .

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Subject: Re: net.rpg - eliminating mundane magic
Summary: spell experience
Organization: Boeing
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 02:14:47 GMT

fts5792@cs.tamu.edu (Frank T Sronce) writes:
 > Simply put, the character learns less from using skills that he has
 > already mastered than from using skills in which his experience is
 > limited. Of course, this has the "disadvantage" that the character
 > WILL use the spells he is most familiar with when the situation is
 > crucial- you don't take unnecessary chances when your life is at stake...

It's been my experience that behavioral modification through experience
bonuses has little effect on how a character is played. If a player wants
to use his fireball for the 20th time in an evening, no XP threats are going
to stop h{er|im}. (At least with the bunch I game with.)                  

-- 
 Bob Hall                   |  if [ -bs message ]; then
 Boeing Computer Services   |      mv message /compost/heap/$$
 root@chicken.ca.boeing.com |  fi
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: apace@mta.ca
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats.ideas
Reply-To: apace@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:48:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.233642@IASTATE.EDU>, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>
>I do not believe, however, that this problem is insurmountable, in
>fact, I believe the mechanism for combatting the problem has already
>been discussed by the group, _ie._ the ability tree.  In my view of
>this mechanic, the final form of net.rpg will come with a well
>fleshed-out ability tree of the general form
>                        A1
>                    /       \
>        B1                              B2
>   /    |     \                     /   |    \
>C1      C2      C3              D1      D2       D3
>etc.    etc.    etc.            etc.    etc.    etc.
>
>This tree would include _all_ possible abilities usable in the role
>playing game.  (Note:  by this I mean all the abilities usable in
>net.rpg, not necessarily all the abilities usable in _any_ rpg.)
>
  Well, it's nice to see that there are people who agree with me on this 
aspect of system design.

>I also think that there is generally a tendency among game designers
>to add, and sometimes necessitate the use of, symmetry in role playing
>design.  This means that if B1 has three subcategories, B2 must have
>three subcategories.  I would like to state again that this practice
>is probably unneccessary and may be unrealistic and needlessly
>cumbersome.  I think that if a few stats are used (say, between four
>and seven) symmetry is nice and can be handled easily.  If one uses
>more abilities, generally in an attempt to increase realism, pedantic
>use of symmetry tends to erode the realism and does not serve any
>worthwhile purpose.
>
  I must agree with the other poster on this topic that symmetry is not 
an entirely pointless effort. In any point allocation system that
aspires to some form of game balance, you need to try to make the
various stats balanced in usefulness, unless you are willing to
make differnt scales for different stats.  
  Maybe a certian amount of variation could be allowed (3 or 4? 2 or 3?)
but we should try to have symmetry.  
                                         
[ability tree deleted]

>Note that this system is not very symmetric.  Some Level three
>abilities have three substats, others have none.  (I am not too happy
>having no substats to a Level three ability, but I could not come up
>with two things to go under Luck and Willpower, and it made no sense
>to have only one substat.  It is possible that these should actually
>be moved under some other stat because of this lack, but I am not sure
>at this time.)
>
>What do you all think? 

This is fairly well done, but i think that the binary system that was proposed
is better. It makes calculation of point values very easy (who can't divide by
two?)  Still, this is a big step in the right direction, in my opinion.

Any more ideas?
>
>-- 
Tony Pace
apace@mta.ca
           
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Labs
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:18:05 GMT

cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:

>I would say that you and I just do not agree on the role of
>magic in a world.  I do not believe magic should be a science.
>I do not believe Psionics should be used in a world with 
>magic.  I do not wish to sound antagonistic or start a flame
>war; I simply do not agree with your opinions, and there is
>no reason you should agree with mine.

>Thanks for your comments, though.

I can understand not wanting a scientific magic system in
your world, but I must stress that gamers differ on this
issue more than any other!  If net.rpg is to become truly
successful, it must have several different types of magic.
Indeed, I'd say that each major type must also be very
configurable to the individual campaign.  

More importantly, I don't want you to rule out the third
system I presented, which I call "psionics" simply for 
lack of a better name, on the basis of its name.  The system
is, IMHO, very suited to a mysterious, magical world.

--
Ramez Naam
naam@terra.cecer.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.OZ.AU (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:55:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.220153@IASTATE.EDU>, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
|> I attempted to create such a system recently.  Magic was intended 
|> be extremely versatile, and players would create their own spells
|> as they went along.  I attempted to run it with some very 
|> inexperienced gamers, however, and the whole thing fell apart.
|> They had no idea what to do with the magic.  I believe, therefore,
|> that a role-playing system needs some written down spells in
|> order to get beginning players started.

Yeah, You need a fairly copius set of examples for a magic system based
on improvisation.  I did the same thing.  The players didnt really know
what magical skills to take and sort of found them to be useless during
play, until I said 'here, give me your sheet' and proceeded to outline a
bunch of spells the player could cast with his chosen skills.  After
that everybody said 'Oh yeah, I see...and promptly proceeded to come up
with humoungous amounts of useful spells, then an even more humungous
amount of humourous spells, as these sessions are prone to do.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: magic.ideas
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:01:53 GMT

I wrote:
>>      I feel there should be a certain uncertaincy to magic, even
>>              among those who are extremely adept.  To me, magic
>>              is the control of forces beyond the limit of human
>>              knowledge, and as such, must contain a certain risk
>>              and danger.  I do not think it should be a system
>>              whereby a set of given inputs produces a desired
>>              result for everyone, each time it is attempted.
Jonathan@RMIT.edu.au replied:
>I would like to see this idea developed even further.  Is there some
>way that players with access to magic could make up what they want?
>This could then be moderated by the GM.  Since the GM can make up
>what the NPCs can do, the balance is left to fine judgement.

I attempted to create such a system recently.  Magic was intended 
be extremely versatile, and players would create their own spells
as they went along.  I attempted to run it with some very 
inexperienced gamers, however, and the whole thing fell apart.
They had no idea what to do with the magic.  I believe, therefore,
that a role-playing system needs some written down spells in
order to get beginning players started.

This is not to say that I think there should be a very large
number of spells.  I think there should be some to give some
idea of what is possible with magic without getting too many.
I think that the spells should be versatile enough to allow for
multiple effects, as well.  This means that a player would not
need a separate spell to create a Wall of Ice or a Wall of Fire,
as is the case in some RPG's, he would have a spell that could
do either as he saw fit.

This also could be used to address the concern raised by Steffen
O'Sullivan about magic-users using the same spell over and over
again.  My experience has been that I tend to use a limited
number of spells as a player because only a limited number are
of any use in most circumstances.  I believe, if the spells
were more general and the magic-users able to vary the effects
of their spells to some degree, a greater variety of magical
effects would appear in most role-playing sessions.

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
                      | and then is heard from no more....'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: FUDGE Miracles
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 01:37:20 GMT

Any feedback on the FUDGE Miracles system in FUDGE 12/12 Section F?

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: naam@cecer.army.mil (Ramez Naam)
Subject: Re: rpg: combat sequence
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers Construction Engineering Research Labs
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:40:00 GMT

jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:

>This is a general request for ideas on what exactly the sequence of events 
>should be in small-scale combat.  This request is mainly directed at RPG's.


[detailed combat stream deleted]

Actually, in the combat system in my home-rules game, every action *is*
rolled for in that way.  We have no rounds at all.  Each action merely
takes a set amount of time (which, of course, drops as you get better
at it).  
--
Ramez Naam
naam@terra.cecer.army.mil
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Virtual walking???
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:44:03 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mmoss@csws17.ic.sunysb.edu (Matthew D Moss) writes:


>Being a VR fan, I went and tried the Virtuality arcade game
>when it was around in a nearby arcade. For early stages in the
>technology, it was pretty good.

>What detracted from the experience, though, was the
>un-physicalness of the game. It's supposed to have you running
>around this world firing guns at one another and dodging bullets.
>I found myself exaggerating (sp?) the fancy dodges to compensate
>for having to use a button to walk.

>Has anyone ideas on how to change this? A playfield is nice, but
>unless it's the actual size then it has limits. I've also thought
>a 360-degree treadmill would be good, but am not sure that it
>would be an easy engineering feat.

A 360-degree threadmill will not give a totally realistic feeling, as
you can feel the difference between running in place and for real,
especially when you turn or otherwise accelerate. Also, it will only
simulate flat ground. It will be a definite improvement over standing
still though.

One way to make a 2D threadmill (movement in two directions) is to
make a frame with a large number of small balls fastened so they can
rotate freely (like on a trackerball or a mouse). The underside of
each ball is connected to two perpendicular rollers each of which is
connected to a motor, again like a trackerball or mouse, with the
exception that their rollers are connecetd to sensors. Note that a
whole row of rollers can share an axle, and by connecting the axles by
a chain or gears they can all share a motor. Similar for all of the
perpendicular rollers, where coloumns can share axles. Sharing axles
forces the rollers to move at the same speed, but that is not a
problem for the intended use.

If each ball is on top of a rod, which can rise or fall, then you have
a 3D threadmill, which will also simulate rough ground (up to the
limit of the rods length. This will be MUCH more difficult to
engineer, though.

	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design