HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Jon L. Campbell)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Theme?
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:59:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: ASUACAD.92310.095916KVJLC
Organization: Arizona State University


   I know this subject has probably been hacked to death, but I
have been struggling with the concept of theme since reading what
John Garner wrote in his guide for the beginning writer.  He points
out that stories need a theme if they are to be effective(?), etc.

   My problem with this, is that writing a story with a theme implies
that every story has a moral to be told.  Or should have a moral, but
I have problems with this concept because I believe that the essence of
truth is chaotic.  That life, death, and the pursuit of happiness is
random and therefore, if fiction imitates life then it to must be a
random occurence without moral implications.  A story of love is only
a series of sporadic events in which multiple random events are brought
together by chance.  Dick meets Jane at the park, they fall in love and
through a series of events marry each other.  Their chance encounter
in the park is not a moral passage in time, but characteristic of the
chaos that occasionally brings unlike events together.  What is the
moral of a love story if the people involved are unknowingly pawns in
the chaotic scheme of the universe?  How would solving a serious of
violent, and completely random, murders involve a moral theme?
   If one is to imply that love, murder, hate, jealousy, or any of the
other human qualities can be packaged into a neat little bundle and
explained in the context of a theme, they're wrong.  There is no theme
to explain the serial killer in todays society, nor is there any way
to unlock the deep physiological torture of chaotic rationale and say
that murder doesn't pay or that you'll be caught eventually.  There is
too much criminal evidence in the FBI's archives suggesting that mutiple
murders by strangers is not something that can fit into a moral theme.
I can't believe that people still write from the perspective of the
theme in their stories.  I can't imagine why anyone would try to
influence the reader with their idea of what is moral and what isn't.

What do you think?  Does anyone out there still use a theme in their stories?


Jon  -- If there is a moral to this, I would reckon that it happened
        by chance.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
id <m0mo0pX-0000YAC@crash.cts.com>; Sat, 7 Nov 92 16: 48 PST
	id <k757576@pro-amber.cts.com>; Sat,  7 Nov 92 15: 59 PST
From: jeff@pro-amber.cts.com (Jeff Jungblut)
Subject: Re: TECHNICAL: online/on-line
Organization: ProLine [pro-amber] -- Spring Valley, Ca
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 15:58:40 PST

In <Bx8wCp.2ov@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com>
bjones@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Brent Jones) writes:

>>>> Jeff Jungblut writes:
>>>>
>>>> In my own writing, I usually use on-line except when referring to online
>>>> help, in which case I spell it as one word.

>>Considering I'm also usually the editor, it stays as I wrote it.  (In the
>>case of online vs on-line vs on line, at least.)
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here. You say you usually use "on-line"
>unless you are referring to "online help." Do you mean that you would
>write "on-line information" and "on-line access" but would write "online
>help"? As all of these strings have essentially the same grammatical
>structure, I'm not sure how you would justify the inconsistent 
>usage. Using "on-line" after the modified word in the sentence would
>also fly in the face of convention--most sources would recommend "on
>line." You would hyphenate the compound modifier if the reader is likely to
>momentarily read the first part of the compound, "on," as an adjective,
>which I don't think is true in this particular case. A sample sentence
>would be, "The help screens are on line."
>
>Just curious. Conventions are conventions, and not altars to worship at
>(at which to worship? :-)), but they should probably be logical and
>internally consistent. This is especially true in technical
>documentation.

I'm not consistent in that respect.  Here are some examples of how I use it:

"Make sure the printer is on line and selected."
"Press Command-? for online help."
"You use a modem for on-line communications with a remote computer."

My exception to the rule is "online help".  The only reason I do this is
because I've seen "online help" spelled this way in most documentation and
magazine articles, so that's my argument for consistency.  According to the
rules, it should be "on-line", not "online".
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato)
Subject: William Gibson
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 03:36:45 GMT




Does anyone know if the eteeemed William Gibson is on the net?  (I'm 
sure he is, but it remains to be seen WHERE.)  I have a question
or two to ask him.



thanks....


john

-- 
John P Onorato             |   "Softness without strength is weakness.
wizard@wixer.cactus.org    |    Strength without softness is meanness."
cactus.org!wixer!wizard    |             -- Mahatma Gandhi
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ravenscar Nights shared fictional writing world
Keywords: writers and readers wanted
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:52:43 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

logan@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Richard Scott) writes of:
> 
> ... a shared world where many writers write stories based on
> the city of Ravenscar.

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

<howl of despair as he scabbles for the scearch&replace key>

     Larry "Not good at names, and then they TAKE it AWAY from me..." Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  For love all love of other sights controls,
GEnie: L.HAMMER2           \ And makes one little room an everywhere -- Donne
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Theme?
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:39:42 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Jon L. Campbell) writes:
> 
>    My problem with this, is that writing a story with a theme implies
> that every story has a moral to be told.  

You are using the concept of "theme" from high school English -- theme
is a pithy little sentence summarizing the semantic content of the
story, a point, or, as you put it, the moral of the tale.  This is way 
too simplistic.  In general, forget everything you were taught in high
school English class -- remember "is it man verses man or man verses
nature"?

As Fred has already pointed out, your concept of life as random
coincidences would, if embodied in your fiction, be a theme.  An 
exploration of how life in a small isolated society would change affect 
personal relationships -- sex aboard a spacecraft, to 
put it crudely -- would be another.

In general, stories with themes that, however loosely, be covered in a 
single sentence will be short stories.  Novels are much more complex
things, covering many different ideas, subplots with their own
obsessions, characters, etc.

Theme is important.  Don't think of it as the moral -- think of it as
the worldview embodied by the story.  (Note it may or may not be an
actual part of the worldview of the author, but itself a fictional
construct.)

> What do you think?  Does anyone out there still use a theme in their stories?

Oh yes.  I'm working through several different obsessions.  Most
involve the collision, often forced or even violent, of two different
cultures, and/or the slow adjustments afterwards.  I look forward to
exploring many different possibile results over the next decade.

	Larry "Often they go BOOM" Hammer
--

                         \   The work is rather too light, and bright,
LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  and sparkling; it wants ... a long chapter
sometimes a Wombat         \ of solemn specious nonsense. -- Jane Austen
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Wednesday, 11 Nov 1992 12:11:51 MST
From: Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Fiction Advice 12: Show & Tell

Crawford asks what is better: Show or tell.

I can't begin to explain in such eliquent(sp?) terms how much a difference
showing my characters action then telling about their actions.  I was stumped
trying to make my antagonist credible until I read his posting and then it
suddenly hit me.  I was telling the reader about my antagonist and not
allowing the reader to discover him on their own.

Unfortunately, my antagonist is one sick individual and this makes my
job harder because I questioned how much show is necessary for the reader
to understand his personna.  In chapter five, I deal with this issue or
should I say, struggle with this issue.  If I were writing the typical
bad guy - good guy novel, I think showing the antagonist would not be as
traumatic.  But, because I am dealing with a repeat offender (i.e. multiple
killer personality) showing his personna and character is taking a toll on
my sensibilities.  Personally, I find what my character does disgusting.
Yet, I feel compelled to show sufficient details so that the reader will
be afraid of this type of character ~~ should they meet them in real life.

I've tried to eliminate much of the offending show and even thought about
changing the antagonists criminal behavior, but I was left without a plot
that sticks to the roof of your mount.  There were too many problems with
that idea.  So I decided to keep my antagonists personna as it is, but
took out some of the trash.  At least I think I did.

So, as Killian points out, show is much better then tell, but harder to
live with sometimes.

Jon  -- He rustled the bushes as she walked past.
From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Moral Context? (was Re: Theme ~ Moral)
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:39:51
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: jim@thinkage.on.ca's message of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:02:36 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.210236.10527@thinkage.on.ca> jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner) writes:
>In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
>>wherever theme is taught it is an abuse of mankinds
>>free choice.  The freedom to choose what is moral or not, the freedom to
>>decide for themselves what is morality and what is immoral.  To write a
>>moralistic theme into a story is equlivent to artistic incest.

>Strong writing can "convert" people; probably it won't produce a
>major change in their lives but it may nestle down in a corner of
>their brains and make itself at home.  Given this possibility, I
>for one make sure that I'm comfortable with the moral stance
>underlying everything I write.  The moral stance is there.  It's
>inescapable.  Only computers can write without projecting a moral
>context.

I suppose it depends what you mean by a "moral context".  Certainly,
aspects of an author's worldview will be expressed in his fiction, and
this includes his views towards morality.  If this is what you mean,
then I would agree.

On the other hand, not all authors try to "convert" readers to their
own views of right and wrong.  To take three very different examples,
consider Camus' _The_Stranger_, William Gibson's _Neuromancer_, and
Dave Sim's _Cerebus_.  Would you say that these works project a "moral
stance", and if so, what?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: William Gibson
Date: 10 Nov 92 00:34:15 GMT
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: wizard@wixer.cactus.org's message of 4 Nov 92 03:36:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.033645.19553@wixer.cactus.org> wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato) writes:

>
>Does anyone know if the eteeemed William Gibson is on the net?  (I'm 
>sure he is, but it remains to be seen WHERE.)  I have a question
>or two to ask him.
>

I wouldn't be so absolutely sure he is.  The one interview I recall
seeing him in demonstrated him to be a very non-technically savvy
person, not at all the tech-head you'd expect from his writing.

jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
From: ai118@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Zidonis)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Snobbish?  Was: On-line Writing Workshop?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 14:15:55 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ai118@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Zidonis)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, philo@orion.IntelliCorp.COM (Philip R. Obermarck) says:

>In article <...>, ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton) writes:
>
>|> I understood it to be a mailing list whereby any message sent is received
>|> by the other people on the mailing list.  Having not received any such mail
>|> therefore, I was just trying to ensure that my message to 'writers-request@
>|> studguppy.lanl.gov' had in fact been sent properly.
>|> 
>
>About a month ago, I sent email  to that address asking to subscribe to the
>On-line writers group.  I promptly recieved a notice asking if I was was 
>really committed and willing to participate, etc.  If so, I should send a
>hello and bio message for the group to review. 
>
>I did so, but have not heard anything more.  Yesterday, I sent another
>message to writers-request, asking after my status.  I have had no reply.
>
>Perhaps the system is down or something?
>
>I'd hate to think that they were being stand-offish snobs. ;-)
>
>
>|> 
>|> Andy
>|> ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com
>
>-- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Philip R. Obermarck                 "I've been alive since time began,
>  PObermarck@IntelliCorp.COM            Not beast, not god, and yet not man.
>                                       I am the music and the dance,
>  <IntelliCorp disavows any             I am the piper who enchants."
>   knowledge of my actions>                           (Creature of the Wood)

Ditto the above. THEY: Are you ready to participate?  ME: I am. I am!

Maybe they are a sub-chapter of the Procrastinators of America.  :^)  ;^)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

-- 
RAZ     ai118@cleveland.freenet.edu
Xref: sparky misc.writing:3403 alt.censorship:8585
Newsgroups: misc.writing


Jon,

Thanks for igniting the lively discussion. I've followed it with
interest. I thought you invoked some very thoughtful responses. I also
thought the attacks were very much in the minority. It seems to me that
when we stick our necks out, we have to be prepared for the worst
responses as well as the best. Keep on keepin' on.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Suicide is the most sincere  
fish@sc.hp.com                 |  form of self-criticism.
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re:    Theme ~ Moral
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:36:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: unx.BxIBD6.45x
Organization: Dobonia
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com


In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
|
|   Several people responded to my posting and challenged what my choatic
|theory or morality and theme.

Or was it one person responding several times?  (Et tu, Maureen? :)

|   A story is just that.  Nothing more than one persons idea of reality or
|un-reality (i.e. lack of reality).  High school english or college writing,
|it doesn't matter, but wherever theme is taught it is an abuse of mankinds
|free choice.  The freedom to choose what is moral or not, the freedom to
|decide for themselves what is morality and what is immoral.  To write a
|moralistic theme into a story is equlivent to artistic incest.  Think
|about it.

I asked it before, and now I'm compelled to ask it again--why the HELL
do you write fiction, then?  If your goal is to have no influence on
your reader, the best way to achieve that is to keep your hands in
your pockets.  I don't have any patience with this kind of literary
ahimsa--how are readers to decide what they think is moral and not if
they do not have available to them examples of different moralities?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Ahimsa is an Indian philosophy that holds all life sacred and dictates
that its practitioners go to heroic lengths to avoid killing anything.
At an extreme, believers in ahimsa wear masks to protect against
inadvertently breathing in and drowning small insects, and sweep the
ground before them to avoid stepping on small creatures.  They must
either be unaware of, or try not to think of, what goes on all the time
in their own bodies--their immune systems and their colons.]

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mdw@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: kill your darlings
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:06:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.230713.2223@gacvx2.gac.edu> bthomas@dumaine.gac.edu (Barbara L Thomas) writes:
>In article <BxF9p5.E2v@well.sf.ca.us>  writes:
>> 
>> a common screenplay saying is "kill your darlings," which means,  
>eliminate
>> anything in your script that is not essential to the plot.
>
>"Killing Darlings" is one of the hardest things to do.  No matter how much
>I tell myself that I need to be ruthless and cut a part out, I will  
>usually find some excuse to leave it in. 

Whereas my writings, on the other hand, are entirely composed of said 
"darlings". It all depends on your taste.

mdw

-- 
Matt Welsh    mdw@tc.cornell.edu        +1 607 253 2737
Systems Programmer, Cornell Theory Center
  "She's like jelly roll, like sculpture!"
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: crutiras@bu.edu (Chokdee Robert)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Critique Wanted II
Date: 12 Nov 92 05:24:54 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Dear Leslie,

I loved the poem, but that last line caught me kind of funny too.  I can't
seem to find the surrealistic connection between "your sky" and "your eyes."
The imagery was simply breathtaking.  But the last line seem to incorporate
an image of E.E. Cummings' "Since Feeling Is First."

But that's just my personal opinion.  I have been a poet for a number of 
years now, and when I was published once, I had a person basically put
me on trial.  This person [who will remain nameless, so that I may kill
them in the future] condemned me like a witch on trial in Salem for not
explaining my works.  She convicted me for my art and her confusion.

So listen to your soul,

C. Robert Rutirasiri at Boston University.

p.s. wonderful journey in that poem.  Thanks.
p.p.s. email me back if you like at crutiras@acs.bu.edu
From: ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 09:44:01 GMT
Subject: On-line Writing Workshop?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard CCSY-PWD, UK.
Newsgroups: misc.writing

There was a recent post regarding an on-line writer's workshop.  I've since
lost this post but did try emailing the quoted address of -

        writers-request@studgruppy.lan1.gov

This however gets rejected with an 'unknown host' message.

Can anyone help?

Andy
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Jonathan_B_Bellack@YCCATSMTP.YCC.Yale.edu (Jonathan Bellack)
Subject: Re: On-line Writing Workshop?
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: Yale University Junior
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:25:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.102557@orion.IntelliCorp.COM>,
philo@orion.IntelliCorp.COM (Philip R. Obermarck) wrote:
> 
> In article <...>, ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton) writes:
> 
> |> I understood it to be a mailing list whereby any message sent is received
> |> by the other people on the mailing list.  Having not received any such mail
> |> therefore, I was just trying to ensure that my message to 'writers-request@
> |> studguppy.lanl.gov' had in fact been sent properly.
> |> 
> 
> About a month ago, I sent email  to that address asking to subscribe to the
> On-line writers group.  I promptly recieved a notice asking if I was was 
> really committed and willing to participate, etc.  If so, I should send a
> hello and bio message for the group to review. 
> 
> I did so, but have not heard anything more.  Yesterday, I sent another
> message to writers-request, asking after my status.  I have had no reply.
> 
> Perhaps the system is down or something?
> 
> I'd hate to think that they were being stand-offish snobs. ;-)
> 
> 
>   Philip R. Obermarck                 "I've been alive since time began,



    I also sent a quick E-mail, about three weeks ago, and have yet to
receive any response.  Is anybody out there affiliated with this workshop
to know what's up with it?  If nobody actually corresponds with these
folks, is anybody there interested in starting up a new group?  Any
long-standing group is probably at some sort of practical carrying capacity
anyway (i.e. 15 members or so).


                          --JonB

Jonathan_B_Bellack@YCCATSMTP.YCC.Yale.edu

"You shouldn't trust the storyteller. Only trust the story."
                                         --Neil Gaiman, "The Sandman" #38
From: ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: On-line Writing Workshop?
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:12:20 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard SSG/CCSY-PWD, UK.

Thanks to everybody for highlighting my mistakes...

My next question is - having mailed the correct (I hope) address, I haven't as
yet received anything.  Is this a commonly used system (I've used a couple
of other such systems and received loads of stuff)?

Thanks...
Andy

(ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com)
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Critique wanted, also - POEM
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:26:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Nov13.172651.17015
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <101643@bu.edu> crutiras@bu.edu (Chokdee Robert) writes:
>Please let me know what your thoughts are of this poem.

Listen, folks, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but there's a
newsgroup for posting poetry:  

  rec.arts.poems          For the posting of poems.

To head off the inevitable torrent of questions, yes, there's a venue for
prose too: 

  alt.prose               Postings of original writings, fictional & otherwise.
  alt.prose.d             Discussions about postings in alt.prose.


Please leave misc.writing to discussions of _writing_.  Thanks.

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
  "In America only the successful writer is important, in France all writers 
   are important, in England no writer is important, and in Australia you 
   have to explain what a writer is." -- Geoffrey Cotterell