From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Paladins
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:02:59 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <5083@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

>>Then you and I have very different views on rights.  I don't think someone
>>sacrifices all his rights just because he commits a crime.  Spitting on
>>the sidewalk is a crime too.  Should the paladin kill someone who does
>>that?

>	I really wish you didn't take this as though I was believing 
>everything personally. I don't, you know.
>	I stated, at the beginning of this thread, that I was playing
>Devil's Advocate. I don't believe in total relatavism; I believe in some
>absolute Good and Evil.

Understood.

>However, what a SOCIETY and a DEITY (the only
>things that count when it comes to a Paladin) think are good and evil
>often vary. Remember, not all that long ago it was perfectly "good"
>to own slaves, and even to shoot them if they did something that 
>annoyed you.

Exactly.  Society might not have absolute good and absolute evil,
but a deity should.  And while society claimed that it was perfectly
good to own slaves, I don't think a deity would agree.

>	Oh? So basically what you're saying is that a Paladin should only
>interfere with things that directly involve him, unless asked to by some
>other party? That kinda waters down the Paladin. One of the points of 
>Paladins (both good and bad) to me was that, even if it was a not always
>bright thing to do, a Paladin would not tolerate what he thought of as
>wrongdoing ANYWHERE IN HIS VICINITY.

And what if he's just *wrong*?  What if he misinterprets something so
he thinks it's a wrongdoing?  You make it sound like a paladin is just
some vigilante that goes out and acts as judge, jury, and executioner
for any crime he comes across.  A paladin that acts that way will not
live very long.

>It didn't matter why or who or where;
>right was right, wrong was wrong, and that was that. If the victim said
>it was all right, that didn't change anything; you know how people can
>be confused, threatened, browbeaten, hypnotized, bewitched, or simply
>inured to tolerate evil! You must make an EXAMPLE! Awaken people to
>their duties! To the FIGHTING of Evil! 

Sorry, while I can certainly see your point, in this particular example
(which is what got this whole thread going), the ranger was not confused,
threatened, browbeaten, hypnotized, bewitched, or inured to tolerate
evil.  He just didn't think that death was the appropriate punishment.
And since it was his sword, and not the paladin's, I don't see why the
paladin cares.  "You want him to keep the sword?  Fine, it's not my business."

>>>He is by his duty BOUND to act in the matter no matter who was involved.
>>Wrong.
>	As above demonstrates, I stand by my position.

And I stand by mine.  I don't think a paladin should act as judge, jury,
and executioner.

>A Paladin who only
>acts where invited (Unless, say, he's the paladin of the god of Courtesy
>or something) will not remain a paladin long. GOD: "WHY didn't you stop
>that prostitution ring?"  Paladin: "Well, none of them said there was 
>anything wrong with it..."  GOD: "Don't you know that the ladies didn't
>dare protest because the leader beat them?"  Pal: "How could I? I would have 
>had to spy on them, and no one asked me..."  GOD: "Er, right. Look, you're
>a good chap and all, but Milquetoasts Anonymous has an opening for you.
>I need some real obnoxious idealistic zealots, not a nice polite twit."

I can see how in your example, a Paladin might take action without being
asked.  However, for him to just up and kill everyone involved would not
solve the problem.  What if he killed the wrong people?

What if that thief had been hypnotized by the party wizard to steal the
treasure?  Your paladin would have killed him withought blinking, and
he'd never even know that he blew it royally.

>	Remember, they're not MY views. Just possible views of a deity.

I know, I'm just stating this under the world that you are describing.

>	In point of fact, I DO believe that someone who deliberately and
>with full knowledge chooses to commit a violent crime (Rape, murder, 
>assault) HAS given up their rights to any consideration by me or their
>victim(s) and had better not expect that I restrain myself in self defense.

But this wasn't a case of self defense.  This was a case of killing someone
who had injured someone else.  I think the ranger could handle the thief
on his own.

>	It makes them all good TO THEMSELVES AND FROM THE POINT OF VIEW
>OF THEIR WORSHIPPERS. However, to anyone on the OPPOSITE side, they appear
>to be EVIL. Most people won't deliberately choose to see themselves as
>Bad Guys.
>	Now, if you say that your Bad Guys *KNOW* and *ACCEPT* that they
>are indeed Bad Guys, then okay. But generally I see even the evil types
>as believing that they are completely right in what they do.

I disagree here.  I would think that most evil deities see themselves as
evil, and accept that they are evil.  But hey, this is something that we
could debate forever.  Now we're into the realm of our own interpretation
of the game, and we're never going to convince each other.

>	Precisely. Compared to your own beliefs, you're probably good (unless
>you somehow ended up doing something you didn't believe in, like a pacifist
>who, pushed into a corner, grabbed a gun and shot his attackers).
>The alignments as used in the game are just markers for us (the all-powerful
>and all-knowing GMs) to denote who is Really Good and Really Evil. But
>generally the people down there all think that they are good.

Again, I disagree.  But that's just because we have differing views on
how people look at themselves.  I think that people who go around killing
others for personal gain know that what they are doing is wrong, and they
have come to the decision that it's worth it.  That doesn't mean that they
consider themselves good, they just don't think that there's anything wrong
with being evil.


-- 
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