HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ruman@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (ruman)
Subject: Re: Rich & Michael
Distribution: world 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Followup-To: rec.food.veg 
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:31:26 GMT

In article <92Aug17.203949.14374@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>
[...]
>You know I think you are right. I got one piece of hate mail from
>an ALF member, and 4 people congratulating me on what an
>*appropriate* flaming this was. 
I have been reading this group for over 10 months and these
attempts at flaming Michael Traub sicken me and have 
provoked my post first post to this group (unfortunately
nothing positive to contribute). Michael Traub has
shown far more intelligence, far more knowledge and far more
sensitivity in his posts than I have ever seen in anything
that u have posted. In fact I don't recall seeing ur name 
before this thread began. He spends hours typing in recipes 
and u have no hesitation in lapping it up, but are only to
ready to inflict the 'veg' newsgroup with sick boasts of
butchering animals when he criticises, and rightly so,
those who take veggie recipes, but have no hesitation
in mocking vegetarianism without stating any scientific
basis for their scorn.
>
>At least four people on this group seem to think Traub
>is a real jerk.
>
So ? Are u attempting to win a popularity contest. This
statement pretty much shows the plane at which ur mind operates.
Michael Traub has some convictions and he lives by those and
he doesn't bother to mince his words. If u have convictions
u wouldn't be bothered by his 'arrogance'. 

>It is however, not my problem. I have a veg. friend who will
>now send me recipes that come up here, so I will no longer
>need to read the group.
As long u don't inflict the group with ur sick boasts
of animal butchering no one cares much whether u read or not.
For too long I have seen such flamers get away with 
insinuations that veggies are out to convert them thru this newsgroup. 
I for one, and I am sure there are a lot of other vegetarians
do not care whether the rest of the world decides to wallow
in meat as long as I am not bothered by them. U are not
doing the vegetarians a favour by reading this newsgroup
or by attempting to convert to vegetarianism.  

>
>So long Michael, Ted, and whoever the anonymous ALF member
>was...I won't miss you guys a bit.
>
>Regards, And to those who are responsible, informative and
>helpful, thank you for your time
>
>Charles
>-- 
>Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
>separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
>struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
>gourd. --Unknown net.person


Sincerely,
ruman
ps:i do not read thsi group for recipes, i do not need them.
From: SECBU@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: more on fruitarianism
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:23:26 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

The Frugal Gourmet did a show re: Fruit for Dinner.  It was
rather interesting.  There were two items in particular that
stood out.
One was a strawberry salad.
Simply it was:

Fresh, halved strawberrys
sugar (to taste)
balsamic vinegar

Mix and let set.

*****************************************************************

If anyone has tried this, I would be interested in your
comments.

Sharon
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: I love red meat!  I love sugar!
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:37:15 GMT

Another point to make is that you have a better chance of
changing your diet for the long term if you introduce
changes slowly, so that you're not overly conscious of
a Big Difference or Something Missing.  If you're having
trouble going cold turkey, why not concentrate on, say,
simply eliminating red meat first, and so on...

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: abrams@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: calcium (was: Tofu, fat and protein)
Date: 23 Aug 92 14:00:23 GMT
Reply-To: abrams@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Brandeis University

Thanks to Rich Young for providing documentation about calcium in
<1992Aug21.161817.5017@pixel.kodak.com> which I certainly did not
know enough to find.  (Though I suppose I could have looked it up
in the library on Monday...)

I also had heard the information that Tom Christiansen mentioned,
that too much protein would leach calcium from the bones.  

Here's what else I have learned recently (partly from _Laurel's
Kitchen_ a rather pedestrian source!) partly from a medical
student friend, and partly because my grandmother has been 
really afflicted with osteoporosis:

Smoking, lack of sunlight, and lack of exercise can all affect
bone density.  On the other hand, a friend from Florida
described a hospital study in which women over 60 who experienced
bone density loss were able to increase their bone density through
supervised weight training!

So it is never too late.  Now if you go outside right now and take
a long walk, you might be walking taller in 40 years or so....

(I think the study was conducted at a Miami hospital... also by
weight training, I meant weight _lifting_ not dieting...in fact,
weight loss dieting may have bad effects on bone density, among
other things.) 

Ruth Abrams
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: Re: Recipe (VEGAN) Hummus
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:44:38 GMT

In article <92234.075748U15297@uicvm.uic.edu> U15297@uicvm.uic.edu (Shyamala Parameswaran) writes:
>Michael Traub's hummus recipe sounds interesting. Although I've
>seen several variations, the one I like best is store-bought
>from a natural foods place. The reason is that no matter which
>hummus recipe I use, it never comes out _white_ as the one
>produced by Nashi Foods and supplied to this store. Their
>ingredients list the same as Traub's except that the oil is
>soybean or canola. So what's the secret?
>
>I really dislike that pale yellowy gook.

I'm confused, I thought that was the colour it was supposed to be?

That's the colour it is in Greece, and the hummus from my local
lebanese shop is also that colour.

It tastes better with Olive oil, but the colour will obviously
be more yellowy.

Why the need for an aneamic hummus?


-- 
Michael Traub
From: tara@socrates.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGAN: Peanutty Corn Muffins
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:18:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland University College

From:  The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book

Ingredients:
3/4 cup whole wheat flour
1 tsp. baking powder
1/4 tsp. baking soda
1/2 tsp. salt
3/4 cup cornmeal
1/4 cup roasted peanuts, finely chopped

1 Tbsp. oil
1/4 cup unsalted peanut butter (crunchy is best)
2 Tbsp. fruitsource (or any thick liquid sweetener)

1 1/2 cup buttermilk (curdle 1 1/2 cup soymilk with lemon juice)
1 "egg"

Preheat oven to 375 degrees.  Grease a 12-cup muffin tin.  Sift flour,
baking powder, soda, and salt, and stir in the cornmeal and peanuts.
Beat together oil, PNB, and add sweetener.  Add soymilk and "egg".
Stir dry ingredients into wet, mixing until barely smooth.  Spoon into
muffin tins, and if you like, sprinkle more chopped peanuts on top.
Bake in hot oven 12 - 15 minutes.
-- 
Tara McDermott            "We suggest people take their Food Pyramids,
                            cut off the top and make a Healthy Eating
tara@socrates.umd.edu         Trapezoid."  -Neal Barnard, M.D.
From: rogers@rtf.bt.co.uk (Neal Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegetarian in the Netherlands
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:56:00 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Aug13.210157.25736@colorado.edu> dyker@locutus.colorado.edu (Barbara Dyker) writes:
>
>I'll be going to the Netherlands in November.  I'm interested in any
>informatin about being vegetarian in that country: restaurants,
>organizations, politics, life.  I would also like to begin
>correspondence with someone who lives there.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Barbara J. Dyker                       Department of Computer Science
>Computer Systems Manager               Campus Box 430B, ECEE00-69
>barb@cs.colorado.edu                   University of Colorado
>(303) 492-2545                         Boulder, CO  80309-0430

I can only comment on Amsterdam and Utrecht but I guess the scene in other
towns is much the same; I have no idea what it's like away from the main
towns.

There is no shortage of suitable restaurants. Each town has a free weekly
paper detailing what's on at the cinemas, clubs etc. The veggie restaurants
all seem to advertise in here.

There also seems to be a very good health-food shop scene there, where
organic veggies, real bread, tofu etc can be bought. This is maybe also the
place to pick up agro-political literature.

In my experience, it comes second to the UK in terms of acceptance of, and
facilities for vegetarians. (hmm... forgot about India).

They also do a good line in herbs :-)


-- 
Neal Rogers
rogers@rtf.bt.co.uk   BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: wadley@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Gregory Robert Wadley)
Subject: Re: more on fruitarianism
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:52:37 GMT

dsouza@hplred.HP.COM (Roy D'Souza) writes:


>Hi Gregory,

>Is a fruitarian diet 'complete' or 'adequate' according to
>the state of the art in nutrition?

>Thanks,

>Roy

Unfortunately, you will be hard pressed to find any conventional
nutritionist who will support fruitarianism.

The approach of nutritional "science" is something like:
1) What chemicals are in the human body?
2) What chemicals are in these commonly-eaten "foods"?
3) Match them up by quantity, and recommend.

But bodies simply don't work that way. The human body, like the chimp
we have 98% of genes in common with, is designed to chew, swallow,
and digest raw fruit, and very little else.

The nutritionist's approach is analogous to working out whether
to put two-stroke or four-stroke petrol in your motorbike, by questions
like "well this one contains oil, and bikes need oil"), when of course what
you should be doing is checking whether the bike is _designed_ to take
two- or four-stroke petrol (sorry, petrol = gas).

Here again are some scientific references (not from nutritionists!):

New York Times, 15 May 1979, page C1
Kay, R. (1985) Ann. Rev. Anthrop. 14:315-341
Speth, J. (1989) J. Human Evol. 18:329-343
Walker, A. (1981) Phil. Tran. Royal Soc. London B292:57-64
Peters and O'Brien (1983) J. Human Evol. 12:721-9

... and some popular ones ...

R. Horne, "Improving on Pritikin"
H. and M. Diamond, "Fit for life"
Diamond, "Living health"
D. Collison, "Why do I feel so awful?"
J. Brostoff and Gamlin, "The complete guide to food allergy and intolerance"
A. Ehret, "Rational fasting"
Moris Kroh, "Fruit, the food and medicine for man"
Kroh, "Formula for a long life"
Leslie Kenton, "Raw energy"
Herb Shelton, "Superior nutrition"
Herb Shelton, "Fasting can save your life"
Elton Baker, "The uncook book"
E. Honnibal and T.C. Fry, "I live on fruit"
D. Shelley, "Food of truth, the key to dietary perfection"

Happy eating ... -Greg.
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Rich & Michael
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:57:58 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug12.162713.14101@dircon.co.uk> uad1214@dircon.co.uk (Peter Cox) writes:
>In my view, vegetarianism is overwhelmingly a moral issue.
>I would hold that there are indeed some universal moral
>standards, and at the top of the list must be a general
>abhorrence towards killing.
>This is erroneous.  A universal moral wrong cannot be right
>for some and wrong for others.

I'll bet you're a real joy at abortion debates.  Listen,
you're confronted with a situation where not everyone holds these
so-called "universal" moral standards.

>I hold that *all* vegetarians have an overwhelming moral
>duty to "spread the word", and the "live and let live"
>mind-set actively prevents this from happening.

Many vegetarians aren't vegetarian because of their moral scruples, of
course.  I think you should be as in-your-face on this issue as you
want to be, and encourage others to be so too, but that includes being
prepared to be treated as a pariah.  This may be an acceptable
trade-off for you.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: Re: Rich & Michael
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:44:47 GMT

In article <5519@transfer.stratus.com> moser@sw.stratus.com (Tom Moser) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.080510.4115@rtf.bt.co.uk>, traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>> Ah, here we have a prime example. A meat eater who has ***never ever****
>> contributed a recipe, a meat eater who just sucks in those recipes
>> he feels are of use to his collection, a meat eater who himself
>> often attempts to ridicule the vegetarian/vegan members of this
>> newsgroup, a meat eater who has shown many times in the past that he
>> has no interest in vegetarianism other than snarfing recipes.
>
>Hey - chill out buddy. I too am a 'lurker' and I DO read this group mostly
>for the recipes. BUT I also read other posts too and I glean quite a bit
>of information from them. I have to say that Ted Feuerbach's posts are
>usually very fair, informative and reasonable. Mike Traub's posts are also
>often informative but face it pal - you are being EXTREMELY unreasonable
>now.

Strange definition of the word fair. If you follow some of Ted's postings
in sci.skeptic you will see just how 'fair' he can be.

This is the sort of thing Ted has posted recently in sci.skeptic
regarding water usage in crop/livestock reduction:

->This has been discussed ad nauseum over and over and over.  Read the
->newsgroup more often.  This "statistic" no longer carries any validity
->here.  I won't waste any more time or bandwidth dealing with English
->majors who think they know science.  

Now that's what I call a "holier than thou" attitude.

>> >I'd like to know more about
>> >Vegetarianism and it's variations (isn't that what this newsgroup is all
>> >about?) and hear less self serving, petty holier than thou drivel.
>> 
>> Why lie? It's pretty obvious that you are not interested in vegetarianism.
>> You have been sucking recipes off this newsgroup for over two years but
>> you are still an eater of animal corpses.
>
>Does that phrase 'holier than thou' occur to you when reading this. I also
>eat animal corpses - and I am interested in vegetarianism. No conflict
>occurs in my mind - perhaps you should be a little more tolerant.

If by "interested" you mean "interested in slagging vegetarianism off 
whenever the opportunity presents itself" which is exactly what Ted
has done in sci.skeptic and in this newsgroup then I guess there is
no conflict between doing that and eating animals.

>Just to make it clear - I do not dislike vegetarians or vegans but I do
>REALLY dislike self rightous bigots.

Pathetic attempt at name calling ignored.


-- 
Michael Traub
From: stvnolan@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Tofu Marinade Recipies
Summary: marinade
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:24:23 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Nanaimo, B.C.

jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz writes:

> Hi,  I'm new to this newsgroup,  as I spend most of my time in Rec.Bicycles, 
> but this group is certainly of interest.  
> I've been vegetarian for about 3 years now,  yet have succumbed to the
> stereotype and bought some tofu only this week.  Apparently the reason I
> haven't bothered with it much in the past is the mediocre way it's been cooke
> when I've had it.
> ANYWAY.....I'd be really grateful for some good marinade recipies,  even my
> bibles such as Moosewood are a little sparce in this area.
 
Hello!  Here's one that takes a little time, but it's worth it.  It's from 
Lindsay Wagner's cookbook _The High Road to Health_.
 
TOFU/TEMPEH MARINADE
---------------------
 
  1 tsp. olive oil
  1      small onion, finely chopped
  3      garlic cloves, finely chopped
  6      mushrooms, one week old, thinly sliced or three dried
         shiitake mushrooms, broken and soaked 30 min in 1/4c water.
3/4 cup  water
1/4 cup  apple juice
1   tsp. oregano
1/4 tsp. basil
1/4 tsp. tarragon
1   Tb.  vinegar
1/2 cup  red wine
1/3 cup  natural soy sauce
1   dash nutmeg
1/8 tsp. pepper
1/2 tsp. salt
 
Heat oil in saucepan.  Add onion and cook till golden.  Add garlic and cook 
1 minute more.  Add all the other ingredients and simmer, covered, for 30 
minutes.  Include the soaking water if shiitake mushrooms are used.  Strain 
marinade through a very fine sieve or a double thickness of cheesecloth.  
 
To marinate tofu (or tempeh), cut 1 pound well-drained tofu into 1/4-1/3" 
thick slices.  Place tofu slices and marinade in sealed container and 
marinate 2-4 days.  Turn container every day to make sure all slices are 
covered by marinade.
 
Hope this is of use to you!
 -Steve.

           stvnolan@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Steve Nolan)
     The Old Frog's Almanac  (Home of The Almanac UNIX Users Group)    
(604) 245-3205 (v32)    <Public Access UseNet>    (604) 245-4366 (2400x4)
        Vancouver Island, British Columbia    Waffle XENIX 1.64
From: tara@socrates.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGAN: Date Nut Muffins
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:17:55 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland University College

From:  The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book

1 1/4 cup whole wheat pastry flour
1/2 tsp. salt
2 tsp. baking powder
1/2 tsp. baking soda

1/2 cup chopped dates
1/2 cup chopped nuts
1/2 cup wheat germ, or bran

3 Tbsp. light molasses
2 Tbsp. oil
1 cup apple juice
1 tsp. grated lemon rind
1/2 tsp. allspice

Preheat oven to 375 degrees.  Grease a 12-tin muffin tin. Sift flour,
salt, baking powder, soda.  Stir in the nuts, dates, and wheat germ.
Beat the remaining ingredients together until smooth, then combine
all, stirring just enough to mix.  Spoon into muffin cups and bake
about 15 - 20 minutes.

Tara
-- 
Tara McDermott            "We suggest people take their Food Pyramids,
                            cut off the top and make a Healthy Eating
tara@socrates.umd.edu         Trapezoid."  -Neal Barnard, M.D.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: sammy@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (Sammy)
Subject: Re: I love red meat!  I love sugar!
Organization: The Comp Center
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:34:37 GMT

In article <92223.57211.J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>And I'm trying to kick the habit.  I read two books by a Doctor named
>John MacDougall.  They were quite interesting in that they recommended
>a high starch diet, and lay off the fats, all meats, and dairy products.
>Fine, I'm trying, but I feel like a heroin addict craving my next fix.
>Any suggestions?
>
>Chris


Chris -

I'm McDougalling, and I think it's great - never felt better - I have
so much energy, aches and pains have disappeared - allergy symptoms
lessened, all kinds of good stuff.

I would give it the 12 days Dr. McDougall recommends; if you can get
that far, the benefits should be very apparent. What are you craving?
From what I hear from coffee/coke drinkers, caffine is the hardest 
to kick and you will probably experience headaches for a time. I can't
help you much on that except to say take aspirin or tylenol, and it
will pass.

My recommendations are: never let yourself get hungry. Fill up on
those carbohydrates. Eat frequently if you want. Think nothing of
having a baked potato as a snack! 

Your high complex carbohydrate foods should form the basis of your
menu, use fruits and vegetables as side dishes. Eat whole grains,
brown rice, beans, lentils, legumes.

This is a very satisfying way of eating, the taste of food gets
better all the time - unadulterated and unfatted.

How long have you been on the plan? If you could give me some specifics
as to what you'd like to know, recipes, questions, etc., send me mail.
I'll be happy to correspond with you. Just do the best you can - we
McDougallers strive to improve, not to be perfect. 

I can't repeat enough - don't let yourself get hungry - even if you
feel like you're eating like a horse. It'll pass.

Sammy
smann@ihspc.att.com
-- 
Sammy=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The enemy of women...is not men, just as the enemy of blacks is not whites.
The enemy is "the tyranny of the dull mind." Carol S. Pearson, _The Hero Within_ 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: JFRAWLEY@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Judy Thomas Frawley)
Subject: Re: I love red meat! I love sugar!
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 11:35:46 EDT

In article <1992Aug12.164113.21981@csrd.uiuc.edu>
saarinen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sirpa Saarinen) writes:
 
>
>chandy@marais.inria.fr (Chandra SHEKHAR) writes:
>
>>Simple. Visit the coronary ward of the hospital near you.
>>Collect statistics on the number of persons under 50 in
>>the US who die of heart disease and diabetes every year.
>>Find out how it feels to have a heart attack.
>
>>What I am trying to get at is that in order to make any
>>real, lasting change in your lifestyle, you have to be
>>highly motivated --- you should actually be able to *feel*
>>the harm red meat, sugar, salt, etc. do to you. You should
>>be able to visualise your blood thickening and your arteries
>>choking each time you eat a hamburger or a steak. You cannot
>>give up red meat (or cigarettes, or any other addiction)
>>for the abstract goal of being "healthy". You have got to
>>realize the prize you pay for unhealthy habits.
>
>Yes, this is probably the way to go (I was able to drop the meat, salt & fish
>in less graphical ways). However, I have another somewhat related
>question about arteries and eating fat.
>
>Is it so that every meal might contribute to the fat in the arteries and
>do also *slim* people have this problem? I.e. can you be slim *and* get
>clogged arteries? I have often thought about this, since people around me
>(in my office) eat hamburgers and junk food and still stay slim. Do their
>arteries also clog or not? Or is it a very long term thing?
>
>thanks,
>Sirpa Saarinen
>saarinen@csrd.uiuc.edu
 
I am not a scientist, but it is my understanding that a person's
weight does not necessarily reflect his/her ability to have
clogged arteries.  While many people are slim through heredity,
that does not mean that they can eat fat at will and not be at
some risk for trouble later on in their lives.
 
Again, I am surmising this.  It does hold true that excess
weight can cause problems, but excess weight does not
necessarily in and of itself mean a person is headed for
disaster - many factors are involved.
 
I'll let the scientists offer better explanation; this is
simply my understanding.
 
Am I right?  partially?
 
:-) Judy Frawley
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: rovel@eng.umd.edu (Amy L. Rovelstad)
Subject: Re: Speaking of veg fast food....
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 18:05:17 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa

In article <2913@voodoo.UUCP> das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes:
[ ..vicious deletions... ]
>anyway.  Anyone else seen veg burgers at Denny's?  
>
>Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.boeing.com  // or uunet!bcstec!voodoo!das 

I had one in Racine, Wisconsin a couple of weeks ago (it was a ``non-vegan''
day ...my excuse is that I was on travel and helpless to alter my reality.  One
does get *so* tired of iceberg lettace salads).  I think it was only 
lacto-veg; I didn't notice any eggy things, though there could have been 
some in the bread, I suppose.  It wasn't bad (compared to those salads,
anyway).

Amy