HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rbmoore@crchh95.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Robert Moore)
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:07:16 GMT


> From: ch2m@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Christopher  Houston)
> Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion (was re: even bets question)
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 04:23:27 GMT

> By my count, there's at least 9 rec.gamblers (including me + some others
> who may want to remain nameless) who will be in LV sometime during the
> weekend of 8/22-23.  

DANG DANG DANG!  I won't be there!!!

>                                  ....  Obviously, copious use of the
> "Presto -- Frank Irwin" sign & counter-sign is recommended (did I get
> the counter-sign right?).

Is that the correct countersign?  If so, (when) did it change?  Did someone
set a new point while I wasn't paying attention...

> But, 1 group "meeting" seems to be called for.  Anyone want to suggest a
> place (a craps table seems promising) & time (preferably a wee hour on
> Sunday morning, say)?

Sounds great, which I could be there.  So how about this: Next year,
we have the 2cd Annual BARGE, from Friday, August 13th through Monday the 16th.

Robert Moore.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed herein do not represent those of NT/BNR
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jawebb@hydra.unm.edu (James Webb)
Subject: Any NFL handicappers out there?
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 09:27:03 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico


	Any serious sports handicappers out there? I intend to start dabbling
this season by betting on NFL games every week. I've got a couple of grand 
saved and am off to make my fortune.

	I'd like any information that anyone has on this line. I've done
exhaustive research into the odds, how the line is figured and moved, parlays,
hedging, etc. But all of this bookwork, like anything else, is no match for
actual experience. Any perspective is welcome.

	I've got tickets to fly out to Vegas every Saturday night and back
every Sunday night (after the late game) for the first three weeks of regular
season and would also be interested in hooking up with any other rec.gamblers to
compare notes and picks, as well as comparing over the net. Some friends are 
going out for the last week of preseason, and I might be out that weekend as
well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Webb
jawebb@hydra.unm.edu
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: t33908p@puukko.hut.fi (Ari Erkki Siitonen)
Subject: Want to buy casino hardware!
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:37:48 GMT

---------------

Hi,

My friend is building his own private casino, and he asked me to find
out where he could get quality Black Jack and Roulette Tables.
If you have some extra ones you do not need hanging around, or you know
some manufacturers/dealers of the trade, please fax the information
to number +358-0251578.

                                    - Ari
---------------
From: leary@bozo.sdsc.edu. (Bob Leary,,45123)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Vegas trip report, 8/7-8/9
Date: 13 Aug 1992 22:04:34 GMT
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center @ UCSD
Distribution: world
Reply-To: leary@bozo.sdsc.edu.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bozo.sdsc.edu

Could anyone clarify what a 'bad' shufle is at BJ and what effect,
if any, this has for the player's expectation (i.e., should a player
stay away from a 'bad' mechanical shuffler)?

Bob Leary

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Blackjack in San Diego
In-reply-to: jimp@jeeves.ucsd.edu's message of 17 Aug 92 06:19:39 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 17 Aug 92 07:11:59

In article <36914@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> jimp@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Jim Piercy) writes:
>
> Someone recently posted an article about blackjack at the Viejas Casino
> in Alpine (about 20 miles east of San Diego), so I decided to check it
> out last night.  I got there at about 10:00PM and they had all(?) eight
> tables going.  The tables were pretty crowded (up to seven players per
> table), but there were a few seats available.  As far as I could tell
> each game had the same rules:
>
>	6 deck shoes
>	$3 - $25 limits
>	50 cent collection per player per hand
>	dealer stands on all 17's
>	double down on 10 or 11 only
>	no double down after split
>	no reslpitting aces
>	players may act as the "Banker" for one shoe
>	Banker must have at least $200
>	after each shoe the option to bank passes to the next player

This is probably the worst blackjack game I've ever heard of in a
"regular" casino.  The only worse games I've seen were for charity
events.  Even without the 50 collection, the "house" has about a 1%
edge.  The collection added at least 2% to this, if the player is
betting the $25 limit.  Is there a collection from the banker?  If
not, you'd be much better off playing the bank.  If so, the banker
stands to lose unless there are several players who are betting big.

> I didn't play because I didn't think my average card counting abilities
> could overcome the rules, _especially_ the 50 cent collection and I didn't
> have enough with me to bank, even if I thought it might be worth it.

This game is completely unbeatable as a player, with a house edge of 3+%
for the basic strategy player.  A $10 bet gives the house a 6+% edge, and
a $3 bet gives the house a whopping 17+% edge.  Leave it to California
to come up with a scheme to adopt their robbery system from the poker
tables at the BJ tables as well.

Bad, terrible game.  In fact, I'm going be so bold as to claim that even
Michael can't conjure up a fantasy situation that will allow the *players*
(not banker) to gain an advantage at this game.  This game is worse than
the BJ *machines*, and even makes Stupak's even-money for BJ game look
generous.  Wow.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Never teach a card counter to sing.  It wastes your time and gets the card
 counter barred."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: BARGE into Vegas
In-reply-to: Jonathan Rosenberg's message of Fri, 14 Aug 92 18:35:27 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:12:31

In article <1992Aug14.183527.19371@walter.bellcore.com> Jonathan Rosenberg <jxr@thumper.bellcore.com> writes:

Jacobs> In an emergency, maybe we can get JR to dress up in his Little Bo Peep
Jacobs> costume.  Hmm, we may need a bunch of Versed to pull this off...
>
> Now, that's hitting below the belt, Steve!  You know I don't do drugs. 

You're right, I only meant that we might have to *sneak* you some Versed
to get you out of the Little Miss Muffet costume.  My apologies to you
_and_ your Little Bo Peep costume.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Never teach a card counter to sing.  It wastes your time and gets the card
 counter barred."
From: twhalen@nunki.usc.edu (Timothy Whalen)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: BJ: Shuffles (was Re: Vegas trip report, 8/7-8/9)
Date: 20 Aug 1992 10:36:19 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: nunki.usc.edu
Summary: deBARGEd

In article <1992Aug19.191623.1842@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall) writes:
>>>|>  Vmark Software, Inc.          |  "WTH?  HODYGTV, A?  AIR?
>>>|>  irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - Timothy Whalen (twhalen@nunki.usc.edu)
>Did Tim say this first, or was it Phil DiDio?

All I can truly claim credit for is abbreviating it, and using it, ad nauseum,
whenever I have to explain why I went back to the ATM.  I forget the original
source.
Speaking of explaining things, I'm royally pissed that my experiments in
quantum physics have catapulted me into an alternate dimension where the
Barge trip (redundant, I know) is August 21-23, rather than the 27-30,
when I will be in Vegas and when my trip is scheduled.  This really irks me
much more than it should.
Also, in this dimension, do we still have the rule where for half your bet
you can get the dealer to take back your hit card and give you the next one
in the deck?  I hope so- I can't wait to try Mike Jacob's log-optimal
Martingale strategy on that, or the 7-less craps at Steve Wynn's Vegas World!
Actually quite bummed,
TW Sir, I'll have you know my action is welcome _everywhere_!" TW
.
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Chip diving
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:16:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Aug20.141615.59474
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <JACOBS.92Aug19163607@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.221214.10028@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>>In article <davem.36.714237009@county.lmt.mn.org> davem@county.lmt.mn.org (David Mackmiller) writes:
>>>
>>>A friend of mine told me that her husband fished four $1 chips out of a
>>>toilet at the Mystic Lake Casino.  *Someone elses* chips.
>>
>> You could always throw a $25 chip in there before going "diving in".
>> No one here would give you a hard time about fishing $29 worth
>> of chips out of a toilet.
>
>Depends.  Frank might say he was a wimp if he didn't flush just before
>diving in....

Even so, if those $1 chips were actually silver, that would take all the
challenge out of it.  They would just sit there, and not dance around
as the water flowed by, like clay $25 chips.
-- 
 ============================================================================
 Frank Irwin                   | "Mike and Blair have the lowest ___________
 Vmark Software, Inc.          |  to ____________ ratio of all rec.gamblers."
 irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - You fill in the blanks.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Chip diving
In-reply-to: davem@county.lmt.mn.org's message of Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:10:09 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:32:21

In article <davem.36.714237009@county.lmt.mn.org> davem@county.lmt.mn.org (David Mackmiller) writes:
>
> A friend of mine told me that her husband fished four $1 chips out of a
> toilet at the Mystic Lake Casino.  *Someone elses* chips.
>
> I guess we all have our price, eh Steve?

I think you have me confused with Frank....
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Never teach a card counter to sing.  It wastes your time and gets the card
 counter barred."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jack@freezer.cns.udel.edu (Jack Seltzer)
Subject: Streakiness in BJ and Progressions
Reply-To: jack@freezer.cns.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:50:10 GMT

Sometime ago I read a book by Charles Einstein in which he discussed
bj streaks.  His claim, backed up by some trials (but I believe the 
nubmer was statistically insufficient) was that the average number
of wins in the game was slightly greater than what you'd expect
if the distribution of wins and losses were uniformily random. I guess
it would be 1.5 if random and his number was higher.  Has anyone
looked at this?  If that were the case then the fewer number of chops
(i.e., win,lose,win,lose,...) relative to what what the number should be
for a uniform random distribution would indicate that betting patterns
can have an effect on winning.  While I doubt this is the case, has anyone
proved or disproved it..or is any of you with computer programs willing
to take a look?  Einstein's assumption was that the players were playing
basic strategy.
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: BJ: Shuffles (was Re: Vegas trip report, 8/7-8/9)
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:53:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Aug19.135352.5915
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.014332.16572@ultra.com> howard@ultra.com writes:
>|>  ============================================================================
>|>  Frank Irwin                   | My nomination for rec.gambling motto:
>|>  Vmark Software, Inc.          |  "WTH?  HODYGTV, A?  AIR?
>|>  irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - Timothy Whalen (twhalen@nunki.usc.edu)
>
>WTH = What the hell?

Yup.

>HODYGTV = How often do you get to Vegas?

Correct, sir!  Followed by A? = anyway?

>The rest, I haven't a guess...

AIR? = Am I right?

>(Obviously I haven't lurked long enough :)

I guess it's about time I change it, anyway.

-- 
 ============================================================================
 Frank Irwin                   | "Mike and Blair have the lowest ___________
 Vmark Software, Inc.          |  to ____________ ratio of all rec.gamblers."
 irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - You fill in the blanks.
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:05:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Aug13.150559.49515
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug12.190727.14510@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
>If the Labourites object to the Frontier, we could meet at the El
>Cortez, take over a BJ table, all change our bets at the same time, 
>and all get barred at once!

We talked about doing this at the last r.g feeding frenzy last year, except
at the Barbary Coast.  It was also suggested that we all put some money into
a pot, spread out, bet with the count, and the last person who gets barred
wins the pot.

But, alas, we didn't get around to doing it.  Someone was busy trying to
buy women's underwear, and convince the sales lady that they weren't for
him.

Since I won't be there, will someone please walk up to a blackjack table
at the Riviera and try to take out marker in my name?  Try to find a thin
floorslug with short, curly blonde hair, who answers to the name Schmidt.
Let us know what happens.  :-)


-- 
 ============================================================================
 Frank Irwin                   | My nomination for rec.gambling motto:
 Vmark Software, Inc.          |  "WTH?  HODYGTV, A?  AIR?
 irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - Timothy Whalen (twhalen@nunki.usc.edu)
From: mitch@lsil.com (Mitch Sako)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Chip diving
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:37:44 GMT
Reply-To: mitch@lsil.com
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

In article 92Aug19163607@cells.cs.utah.edu, jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.221214.10028@odin.corp.sgi.com> kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey) writes:
>>In article <davem.36.714237009@county.lmt.mn.org> davem@county.lmt.mn.org (David Mackmiller) writes:
>>>A friend of mine told me that her husband fished four $1 chips out of a
>>>toilet at the Mystic Lake Casino.  *Someone elses* chips.
>> You could always throw a $25 chip in there before going "diving in".
>> No one here would give you a hard time about fishing $29 worth
>> of chips out of a toilet.
>Depends.  Frank might say he was a wimp if he didn't flush just before
>diving in....

At one joint I saw, the maintenance guys epoxied a $25 chip to the bottom
of a toilet bowl.  There were marks and gouges in it but nobody ever broke
it loose.  I think they had to replace the throne because the ceramic got
cracked from so many people trying to get it.
---

====================================================================
Mitch Sako	LSI Logic Corp.		Phone	408-433-4187
internet:	msako@lsil.com		FAX	408-433-8796
uucp:		lsil!msako
RIME:		->REDBARON, conference=POLITICS
Disclaimer:	Opinions expressed are mine and only mine and do
		not reflect the opinions of my organization, my
		management, or my mother
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 05:23:42 GMT

In article <JACOBS.92Aug13192452@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>Great!  We're up to 15, so we're talking a bigger bash than last year.
>Maybe we should converge on GBC and demand a group discount :-)

Never work.

Even the guys who run GBC will never believe that there are
ever at one time in Las Vegas fifteen people who can read.

				--Blair
				  "They'll think we're a street-gang
				   from Beverly Hills come to shoplift..."
From: stantz@sgi.com (Mark Stantz)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Blackjack in San Diego
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:58:18 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <JACOBS.92Aug17071159@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <36914@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> jimp@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Jim Piercy) writes:
>>
>>	6 deck shoes
>>	$3 - $25 limits
>>	50 cent collection per player per hand
>>	dealer stands on all 17's
>>	double down on 10 or 11 only
>>	no double down after split
>>	no reslpitting aces
>>	players may act as the "Banker" for one shoe
>>	Banker must have at least $200
>>	after each shoe the option to bank passes to the next player
>
>This game is completely unbeatable as a player, with a house edge of 3+%
>for the basic strategy player.  A $10 bet gives the house a 6+% edge, and
>a $3 bet gives the house a whopping 17+% edge.
[ ... ] 
>Bad, terrible game.  In fact, I'm going be so bold as to claim that even
>Michael can't conjure up a fantasy situation that will allow the *players*
>(not banker) to gain an advantage at this game.  This game is worse than
>the BJ *machines*, and even makes Stupak's even-money for BJ game look
>generous.  Wow.

	The real beauty of this is that *some* people in the casino are
actually _playing_ it.  Never underestimate stupidity.

	-mfs
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jxr@thumper.bellcore.com>
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 17:33:13 GMT

From: ch2m@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Christopher  Houston)
Subject: Re: Big August rec.gambling excursion (was re: even bets question)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 04:23:27 GMT

> This message is also in response to those who asked last week if anyone
> would be in Vegas from the 18th to 23rd(?).  Anyway, I'll be heading out
> there from here at U.Virginia in two days (Thursday the 13th), whereupon
> I'll stay through Sunday the 16th, head to Phoenix for three or four days,
> and then go back to Las Vegas through Monday the 24th.  So, is this
> "Big August rec.gambling Excursion" taking place during either of those 
> weekends?  And if so, are the festivities open to net newcomers?  Let me
> know, but quickly please, because like I say, I'm outta here Thursday...

By my count, there's at least 9 rec.gamblers (including me + some others
who may want to remain nameless) who will be in LV sometime during the
weekend of 8/22-23.  Now, I really don't want to cut into my gambling
time much (after all, I'll only be there for 5 days), but this seems
like too good an opportunity to miss.  Obviously, copious use of the
"Presto -- Frank Irwin" sign & counter-sign is recommended (did I get
the counter-sign right?).

But, 1 group "meeting" seems to be called for.  Anyone want to suggest a
place (a craps table seems promising) & time (preferably a wee hour on
Sunday morning, say)?

JR, the Younger

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: weinstoc@sei.cmu.edu (Chuck Weinstock)
Subject: Gambler's Book Club
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:53:01 GMT


The current issue of GQ features a one page article on Howard Schwartz,
marketing director of the Gambler's Book Club.  Those of you who have
frequented the store will no doubt recognize Howard's picture.



Chuck Weinstock				weinstock@sei.cmu.edu
Software Engineering Institute		(412) 268-7719
Carnegie Mellon University		(412) 268-5758 (Fax)
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall)
Subject: Re: Clumping in Blackjack
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:56:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.221835.21549@intelhf.hf.intel.com> eshen@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Eric Shen) writes:

>I was wondering if anybody has every studied this phenomena or
>is it just supersition.  Personally, I never play with 6-deck
>shoes, so I rarely see this.  Does anybody out in NETland ever
>encountered this or actually made some money off this?

I just posted stating that I had studied this phenomenon via
computer simulation.  Specifically, the simulations showed that
identical cards like 8's tend to anti-clump due to splitting,
but, overall, similar cards tended to clump (similarity here was
judged by the High-Low count and statistical correlation.)  A
nonrandom shoe shuffle does not do a good job of breaking up
blackjacks (like when multiple blackjacks are removed at the start
of the round).

The count is negatively correlated to the next card dealt; that's why
card counting works.  When the program used a simulation of a nonrandom
shoe shuffle, the count was *less* negatively correlated to the next
card dealt than when it used a random shuffle.  *However*, while this
was statistically significant, it was a very tiny difference.

Some people claim to make money off card clumping.  At least one person
does. Jerry Patterson.  He makes money off card clumping by selling his
system of making money off card clumping to suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H players.

Actually, there is one case in which the clumping might be exploitable,
but it is rather rare and so isn't really worth talking about.

In single deck, I don't think people usually call it card clumping, but
for incomplete shuffles adjacent cards tend to remain closer to each
other than they should.  "Card location" is the art of remembering which
cards went into the discards together, and then when one of them comes
into play assuming that the other one can't be far behind.

For shoes, shuffle-tracking can be used to track large groups of cards
all the way through the shuffle.  This again is a separate thing from
card clumping.

-- 
Michael Hall            \  You "trust" the dealer, but you cut the cards.
NASA Ames Research Center\ Similarly, you "trust" the dealer, but you should
hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov \not cut the cards in the middle.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Betting both sides to get Comps
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:46:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.185345.19674@kronos.arc.nasa.gov>
hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall) writes:

>But there is at least one game with a positive expected value for the
>player and no chance of losing money even in the short run.  The game
>is called "savings account up to $100,000 at a Federally insured banking
>institution".  It is easy to play, has a positive expected value, and
>if you want zero variance you can always give yourself just 1% annual
>interest and light cigars with the variable amount above that.  Now
>show me how to generate a huge bankroll very quickly with this game :-)

Be the bank.

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: fovsutt@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (VINCENT SUTTMILLER)
Subject: Deadwood, South Dakota
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 13 Aug 1992 08:31 EST  

I'm taking a trip to Deadwood South Dakota in September to visit a relative
  I've been told that they have gambling there.  Does anybody know what 
level of stakes they have or any other helpful details.  Such as table 
minimums and BJ rules.  Any help would be appreciated.  

Vince Suttmiller - NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland, Ohio 
Newsgroups: rec.gambling