HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 06:30:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) says:

>In article <1igkoeINN552@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>
>>As well, you know damn well that stabbings, letter bombing, and other forms
>>of terrorism are regular acts 
>>by Hamas and other Palestinian groups.
>
>Coming from a self-admitted genocide apologist who has shared a common 
>purpose with the criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle, 
>it is rather amusing. Tell me "wollian", were you high on "uri-ne" when
>you wrote that?

YES, YOU'VE FIGURED IT OUT MUTLU, I AM AN HONORED MEMBER OF ASALA/SDPA/ARF
I'm also a member of the KKK, ADF, ACLU, and AAA.  I wear BVD and eat McDLTs.

I root for UM and MSU.  I watch HBO and CBS.  Also, I enjoy ST:TNG.

Take a chill pill, Meathead.


-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:21:10 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <4906@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1993Jan9.124204.4511@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:

>>The zionist movement was  aiming to build a home for a group
>>of people that BY FATE were jews, and as such homeless and under a 
>>continuous threat.

>True.  Except they forgot, upon establishing such a home, the basic
>priniciples and philosophy of human rights.  They forgot the years of
>suffering that they endured under Nazism, by enacting similar racist
>and ruthless policies against the hundreds of thousands of Arabs whom
>they drove off the land.

Really Anisa, John isn't gone yet, you don't have to work so hard to
replace him as the loudest and basest of demagouges.  You know
perfectly well that the above is a blatant misrepresentation of facts.

>>I think concepts should be held apatrt.  
>
>How can you believe in the state of Israel under religious precepts if
>you maintain a secularist point of view?  They are definitely held
>apart by different ideologies.  If you want to believe in a state for
>all Jews on a secularist level, do not use historical biblical claims
>to justify your existance in Palestine.

Why?  I could believe that Jews were granted a right to the land by
God, and believe that Jews should not establish a religious state
until the coming of the Messiah.  That doesn't mean I am prohibted
from working for a Jewish state now.  You imply that the beliefs are
mutually exclusive.

>>I share your feelings, but you must remember that zionism was 
>>responding to a world situation where human love was not exactly the
>>dominating power.

>And, in turn, it enacted policies where human love and respect for other
>cultures was not the dominating factor(s).

Can you name any culture or group that has put love and respect for
other cultures as its dominating factor, or even as *a* dominating
factor?

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: JLE IS STILL ON
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 04:03:30 GMT


HI ALL,

I still managed to get connection for a few more weeks via a seperate
net.

I'll hang around Insha`Allah  for a little longer.  Thanks
for the concerns of most of you.

jle
			"Jaboo Al shaheed Jaboo, Ya farhit Immo w-aboo"
			 72 Horiyyat in Jenna  :) :D
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25066 soc.culture.soviet:11973
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Zeleny"s Armenian friend.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:41:41 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan8.214538.19129@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

>B.C.E.  To cite an Armenian friend of mine, at the time our ancestors
>built their temples, the ancestors of the Slavs were sitting in the
>trees, and spitting at each other.  Of course, he said it in Russian.

It boggles the mind, doesn't it? The next time you ask him about the
Turkish Genocide (in English).

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."

            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24794 soc.culture.greek:12070
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:06:16 GMT

In article <1iq92uINNf9i@life.ai.mit.edu> steel@gnu.ai.mit.edu (JLE) writes:
>In article <4908@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>>In article <C0nDs8.DCC@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
>>>
>>>religion.  Most Muslims I know drink, sleep around, rarely go to the
>>
>>loosely structured society.  Though you have only associated with
>>non-religious Muslims, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are like this.
>
>How true, Sister Anisa,
>In fact there is a story about the prophet in this regard.
>As he was welcoming back people returning from Syria (Bilad Asham),
>he asked one:  How are the people of Syria?  
>The man responded:  Thieves, alcoholics, womanizers, gossipers, ...etc.
>The prophet responded:  Correct.
>
>He asked another man the same question: The man resonded:
>They are sweet, humble, help each other and the stranger, religious,
>...etc.  The prophet responded:  correct.
>
>
>The people around him said: Two contradicting answers!!
>He responded: because the first hung around the bad ones, and the
>second hung around the good ones.

When I wrote about non religious Muslims, I wrote "many Muslims that I
know"  I realize, of course, that there are Muslims who take their
religion seriously and are very strict.   It was not an attack on Islam or
Muslims.  I was pointing out that it is not only Jews who do not follow
their religion strictly.  Somehow I knew there would be people who would
take my words to be an attack on Muslims.  
 

By the way, I liked the story.  :-)  (no sarcasm intended)

>-------
>P.S., the above are not the eact words nor in the exact order,
>but the meaning of the story is the same.  Brother Hamza, or
>Sister Anisa can help.

Keren

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 23:12:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.220306.14377@informix.com> proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.035503.18831@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>>On the other hand, in the case of the Hamas terrorists, we're not
>>talking about innocents.
>
>Funny, I don't recall any trials or convictions. How do you know 
>who is innocent and who isn't?

The same question arises when police shoot someone to death at the
scene of a crime, or when American soldiers shoot and kill Somali
gunmen, as they have several times in recent days, or when American
fighter jets shoot down an Iraqi plane.  In none of these cases does a
court case reach a decision before action is taken.

In any of these cases, a court case may be held after the fact to
decide if the action was proper.  The Hamas terrorists have much more
to gain from such a court case than the dead Somalis or Iraqi pilots.

Israel has handed down an unbelievably lenient punishment to people
who are unbelievably evil.  If only other countries would be half as
generous, we'd see a much kinder, gentler world.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:01:11 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1993Jan07.020243.108257@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.190629.19897@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <Jan.4.13.19.05.1993.19258@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>>>kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com writes:

>>>>	Oops your anti-Semitism is showing again.

>>>Insisting that I am anti-Semitic when I SAID several times that I am 
>>>a Semite is really stupid and foolish on your part. You are very much

>>Insisting that you don't speak English very well, while clear from
>>your posts, does not excuse your ignoring the fact that the words
>>anti-Semite and semite are not related, as you have been told many
>>times. 

>It stunns me how you are so good at manipulating issues and 
>sometimes convincing people that they are guilty while they are not.
>It really stunns me about you.  May be GOD has a wisdom in giving
>you such a way.

Thanks, but it has less to do with god than a Jewish education.  I
spent my childhood arguing with Rabbis about religion.  I didn't want
to learn Torah or talmud.

However, I don't think that I'm trying to convinve anyone here of
their guilt.

>If you wish to be so frank, then change the word from Anti-semite
>to Anti-Jewish.  Isn't your target is adressing the 
>man as being Anti-Jewish?  Then spell it out.  By using the word
>Semite, you are gonna have to resort to ugly insults such as
>the ones above.

Anti-Jewish would imply that they were opposed to the rituals and
traditions of Judaism.  Anti-Semitism implies hatred of the Jewish
people.  Perhaps we could use anti-Jewish to refer to those Jews who
we now refer to as "self hating" Jews.

>Marwan, I advise you not to give up.  And don't be fooled with
>Danny's method of addressing things. Use your judgement, but
>from my experience on this net, Danny and his alikes managed
>to discourage people from their original stands by using words. 

Should we instead use violence?  Changing peoples opinions with
rhetoric and debate is one of the main ways democracy differs from
other forms of government.

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:52:13 GMT

In article <29939@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

# ~In article <1993Jan6.144936.24280@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
 
# ~~ we still have you and Henderson to be our voice
# ~~of reason and compassion.

# ~It's certainly a sad day when people need to be reminded that shooting little
# ~girls is wrong.

	It is an even sadder day when people need to be reminded that the
blame for the little girl being shot lies with the abusive parents who
put her in a place where there is no way the soldiers could possibly
be able to pinpoint an innocent little girl (assuming she was not
throwing stones like everyone else) and avoid shooting her without
jeopardizing themselves.

	But do you know what is even sadder?  It is people like Jeremy who
are duped into allowing the age and sex of the little girl to be a
successful propaganda tool.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: POLITICS: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 23:36:20 GMT

In article <bill.726187577@bcserv> bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill)) writes:

>I think that "zionist terrorist" is possibly a good term for
>the zionists who were blowing up various British possessions in
>order to gain a Jewish homeland in Palestine pre-1948.  

There is no comparing Jewish fighters with Palestinean fighters.
Jewish fighters primarily targeted the British military and, when
caught, were often executed.  PLO fighters primarily target civilians
and, when caught, get imprisoned or deported, at worst (at least by
the Israelis; Arab governments are more generous in handing out death
sentences).  "Zionist terrorist" is a very misleading term, unless you
have an agenda of public deception.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: POLITICS: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians"
Date: 7 Jan 1993 03:20:46 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 726278521@riker, dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <1ibicfINNpne@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>>For me, someone who acquired land by fair means
>>a few generations ago, even if they had just moved from another 
>>place, has a right of occupancy which completely overwhelms that
>>of someone else who merely belongs to a group whose "ancestors"
>>(i.e., that fraction, perhaps small, of those ancestors thousands 
>>of years earlier with whom they have decided to identify) were
>>unjustly disenherited.

>That applies to the majority of Israelis, and in "a few generations",
>it will to all Israelis.  

No it doesn't.  See the "thousands of years".  One must be very careful
to not take arguments like mine to unreasonable limits.  Consider the
sequence:
 
   (0) This land was stolen from me, I want it back.
   (1) This land was stolen from my father, I want it back.
   ...
   (n+2) This land was stolen from my great^n-grand father, I want it back.

I think most people would agree that (0) is very reasonable, but that
(100) is not.  Where is the boundary between reasonable and unreasonable?
There might be a legal boundary somewhere derived from inheritance laws
but I don't think there is an objective way to choose a moral boundary.

The fact is that there are people living right now who were driven from
their country at gunpoint and not allowed to return for the primary
reason that they are not Jewish.  I cannot see any way to pretend it
is morally defensible (nor is any similar anti-Jewish measure of an
Arab country).

On the other hand, it is quite clear that the forced evacuation of
Jews from Israel now would be a heinous crime comparable to the
forced evacuation of Arabs 44 years ago.  This is a contradiction,
of course, but such is life.

>It's the only pragmatic solution to the
>mideast crisis.  Trying to undo all real or imagined wrongs from the
>past will lead to endless conflict.

Maybe, but ignoring recent wrongs will also lead to endless conflict.
This is an unresolvable contradiction, alas, but one that must be
lived with.  

Brendan.
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:32:34 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1993Jan4.205605.8651@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.072800.28087@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>>Just superficially compareing turkish and finnish grammar one finds easily
>>similarities which are not typical for indo-european languages.
>
>The problem is superficiality.  One does not pursue such a claim based on
>superficialities, but on deep, regular correspondences, obtained by the appli-
>cation of principled methodologies.  It is not a matter for minutes or hours of
>work, but for weeks, months, even years.
>-- 
>Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
>                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
>                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
>alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_

In article <1993Jan4.205605.8651@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) 
writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.072800.28087@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>>Just superficially compareing turkish and finnish grammar one finds easily
>>similarities which are not typical for indo-european languages.
>
>The problem is superficiality.  One does not pursue such a claim based on
>superficialities, but on deep, regular correspondences, obtained by the appli-
>cation of principled methodologies.  It is not a matter for minutes or hours of
>work, but for weeks, months, even years.
>-- 

Yes, but the superficial similarities can at least provide the impetus to probe 
more deeply.  Does anyone know of others who have pursued this line -- or is it 
one of those things that anyone who suggests it is labeled "revisionist" and 
stands in danger of ruining his academic career?  I'd be interested to hear more.

Gerry Palo (100% Finn by ancestry)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25273 talk.politics.soviet:10414
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,talk.politics.space
Subject: World Model United Nations Conference in Prague
From: chao6@husc11.harvard.edu (James Chao)
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:35:18 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

To all those interested in international relations, politics, and the
United Nations -- WorldMUN is a great forum for the discussion of 
current issues being debated by the United Nations today: 

Harvard World Model United Nations (WorldMUN) is an international
conference that brings together university students and young
professionals from around the globe to siimulate the workings of the
United Nations.  The second annual WorldMUN conference will be held from
March 28, 1993, through March 31, 1993, at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  

Ten committees, representing the General Assembly, Economic and Social
Council, and Specialized Agencies of the United Nations, will discuss
issues from the actual UN agenda.  In addition to the formal debate of
resolutions, committee sessions will be augmented by presentations from
politicians, businessmen, scholars, and activists who have helped shape
the dramatic world events of recent years.

In this era of momentous political change, WorldMUN seeks to assess the
role of the United Nations in a new world order.  WorldMUN marks the first
truly international simulated United Nations where participants play the
roles of their own nation's ambassadors.  WorldMUN strives to teach
tomorrow's leaders about the United Nations and its methods of conflict
resolution.  It aims to foster skills in negotiation and debate, in order
that delegates may formulate resolutions on topics currently discussed in
the real United Nations.  These resolutions will be sent to the actual
United Nations committees.

WorldMUN 1993 will take place at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  The Hotel Diplomat is Prague's most modern conference
center.  Prague is both one of the most beautiful metropoles of Europe and
an ideal location for debating current world politics and the changing
role of the United Nations.

The Hotel diplomat is a luxury resort that offers restaurants, shops, a
night club, and fitness and spa equipment.  Delegates will stay at the
Hotel Diplomat for the reduced rate of 130DM/day double occupancy, which
includes two meals a day.

Delegate registration is $US60 per delegate.  For more information, please
reply to this e-mail address or write/fax:
Joshua A. Salomon, Secretary-General
Harvard World Model United Nations 1993
Suite 23, 1430 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138-3810
UNITED STATES

Telephone:  001-617-493-6995
Fax:  001-617-493-6995

James Chao
chao6@husc.harvard.edu