HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 22 Dec 1992 09:01:01 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Dec22.144024.28676@tc.cornell.edu> 
shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
> In article <1h6t87INNccf@mizar.usc.edu> 
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >There's no reason whatsoever 
> >to listen to a single word Andrea Dworkin says.
>
> While I certainly disagree with Dworkin, that won't stop me
> from disagreeing with you about her.  Her suggestion that
> true consensuality can't exist between two people where
> there is a gross power imbalance is a valid one. 

If I thought that were her point, I would of course agree 
with her.

> She then
> goes ahead and denies the adulthood of the less empowered
> person, and that is her great failing.  Just because she's
> wrong about a lot doesn't mean that she's wrong about
> everything.

Perhaps Dworkin isn't wrong about everything, but I see no
reason why I, a gay man who has no sexual interest in
women whatsoever, should be painted with her extremely
broad brush.  All men's interest in women, according to 
Dworkin, is gynocidal.  All men are potential rapists. 
What finally convinced me that she's a complete crackpot,
and one not worth taking seriously for even a second,
is her claim, in _Intercourse_, that *every* act of penile-
vaginal intercourse is actually rape.  That she steps up
her language -- and really, how can anyone take seriously
someone who claims that each specific act of heterosexual 
intercourse is fully as horrific as the gas chambers at 
Auschwitz? -- makes me think that she's operating under 
another agenda that she's not willing to come clean about.  
I wouldn't complain if she were honest about this and 
admitted to her androphobia.  But she won't. 

Arne
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Bar etiquette
Date: 3 Jan 93 06:25:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan3.062520.3441
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1993Jan2.212719.23359@vpnet.chi.il.us> orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
[in answer to my question "how does one loiter in a bar without
feeling self conscious about it?"]

>Well, what I do is wander in with a copy of some railroad book or
>literary magazine, sit down at a table or the end of the bar, and
>start reading, drinking, and gently ogling.  When I finish the
>magazine/book, run out of money, or get picked up, I leave :-)

I suppose that would work.  But I've never seen a person with a book
in a bar, and aren't most bars too dark anyway?

It works great in coffee shops, although I've never tried to meet a
sexual interest this way. [bonus question - why aren't there ever
coffee shops where the intent is for you to meet other queer people?]
The ones I know that tried have all failed. Is booze necessary?

One thing I've been doing while in Houston is spending some time at a
bar here called "the Briar Patch". It's a neat place: there's a piano
that people are singing along too, mostly older men, very warm and
friendly.

I still don't have the bar thing down, but I had a good time here. I
met a friendly man who chatted with me, told me all about the people
in the bar and about other places in town. It was nice to feel welcome.

I had it in my head that if you talked more than two minutes with
someone at a gay bar, it was because you intended to have sex with
them. I'm not sure what this guy wanted, but he didn't seem that
interested in cruising me - he was just friendly. I liked it.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                              Stand up for your love rights
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Date: 31 Dec 92 07:45:43 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1992Dec31.002814.1979@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>I don't see how this follows from CO2. If FooWare has an
>anti-discrimination policy and they violate it, that's a breach
>of contract, and I don't see how CO2 would prevent you from suing
>successfully. Granted, CO2 prevents the law from *mandating*
>non-0discrimination; but if a company sets up such a policy
>voluntarily, they would be bound by it the same way they'd be
>bound by any other agreements.

Actually, CO2 states that you cannot make a claim of discrimination 
based on a homosexual orientation.  It prevents someone from sueing
if they were discriminated against for being homosexual (or even
suspected of being homosexual).  Please note that you can sue if
you were fired for being heterosexual.   I can't tell you if
private contracts are affected by this.  I just wanted to point out
that there is more to CO2 than you realize.

Side note: I'm not sure if the person's *actual* orientation is considered
relevent with CO2 - only the *reason* for discrimination.  In other words,
an employer can fire a heterosexual employee and simply say "I think
you're a fag".  Since the heterosexual employee was fired "for being
gay" he/she would have no ability to sue - even if to prove that they
weren't gay.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (Is: the empowerment of women)
Date: 2 Jan 1993 22:44:17 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1993Jan3.014408.18528@toolz.uucp> 
todd@toolz.uucp (Todd Merriman) writes:
> It's sad that fashion dictates that women must hide behind a
> mask of makeup to be "beautiful."  

Yawn.

> The idea that women are
> attractive only when you cannot see their real selves 

Their "real" selves?  What, if I may be so bold as to ask,
is a "real" self?  And why is a "real" self obscured by
a little mascara and lipliner?

> is an 
> idea perpetuated by men because (1) it support a multi-billion
> dollar cosmetics industry owned mostly by men, 

Oh puh-leeze.

> and (2) it is
> demeaning to women to not be able to be accepted as they really
> are.  

Women somehow aren't really themselves when they put on
a little powder?  

> Thus, men are able to maintain a power structure that
> obviously favors men and puts-down women; and makes lots of money
> in the doing!   

Snore.

> As long as women continue to smear that ridiculous colored
> stuff all over their faces, they cannot be taken seriously.

By you, perhaps.  I don't have any problems taking women
seriously whether or not they're wearing makeup.

> Don't even ask me what I think about high-heels!

Let me guess.  You don't like them?

> Rember the "bra burning" of the 70's?  Maybe it's time to 
> have a "makeup burning" of the 90's.

Well, no, I don't remember the "bra burning" of the '70s.
Perhaps you'd like to tell us about it.

Arne
From: d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: CURE THIS was(Re: Why not cure homosexuality?)
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:25:43 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

We can cure LOTS of things...

Why not cure celibacy. With you help, we can stop celibacy within our lifetime!
From: an3360@anon.penet.fi
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Prolonged erection victim
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:16:00 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: soc.motss

Having read the article posted here about tranquilised nipples being used
to rob visitors to Bangkok, I thought I would post a similarly offbeam, 
almost gleeful voodoo tale from the Star, a Ugandan daily newspaper, dated 
27 August 1992.  I don't live in Uganda (and if I did I almost certainly 
couldn't post to usenet news - but hey I live in Europe and I still can't do 
so directly); this was faxed to a friend of mine.

PROLONGED ERECTION VICTIM HAS DIED

Erizefani Mugoya, the unfortunate man who has been going through untold
agony following an abnormally prolonged erection of his penis for the last
two weeks, has finally passed away after being hospitalised at Kamuli
hospital during the course of his ordeal.
Sources from Kamuli told the Star yesterday that Mugoya, who was last heard
of to be semi-conscious and suspended on drip, by courtesy of his stubbornly
stiff painful organ, died after an episode of two weeks' misery.
Mugoya's death struck at a crucial moment when his relatives were also
reportedly engaged in serious negotiation with one John Mutyabule, the
husband of the wife with whom the deceased fornicated before his genital 
became unbearably stiff.
Mutyabule of Bukholi in Iganga had previously demanded a ransom fee before
he could uncast the charm he had put on Mugoya.  (stuff deleted)  Doctors
are said to have gone ahead and operated on their rare patient.  Sadly Mugoya
never recoverd from the surgery, confirming Mutyabule's threat not to involve
Western medicine in this traditional debacle (sic?).
Mugoya, a lively middle-aged man from Buwenge, 17 miles from Jinja ventured
to Bukholi from where he eloped with Mutyabule's wife...After fraternising on
that fateful night, Mugoya was alarmed when his penis challengingly remained
erect in spite of the man's exhausation.
As matters grew worse, Mugoya was rushed to hospital after his lover had
failed to alleviate the problem with soothing warm water.  He was admitted
at Kamuli where doctors prescribed injection after injection in an attempt
to calm the dangerous-looking organ but to no avail.
(stuff deleted)
The ransom was too much for his relatives...By the time of his operation 
Mugoya had lost consciousness and he never recovered from the surgery
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
From: endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Guilt: religion vs society?
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:02:59 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <92356.232915MEH124@psuvm.psu.edu> <MEH124@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>A question for those of you that may have experienced guilt coming to terms
>with your gay/lesbian or bisexual lifestyle and feelings.  If you did
>experience guilt was the source more from religious upbringing or from being
>different from mainstream society?  Also, and more importantly, is the  feeling
>of guilt the same for that brought on by religion versus that from social
>differences (i.e., are there two different kind/feelings of guilt)?

I have a very hard time distinguishing between the junk deposited into my brain
by society from that deposited there by religion.  The two were very intertwined
in my early years. (ages 5-10)  Now, all the guilt I felt is gone, or at least
enough of it is gone as to make it powerless over me.  I just wonder if religionwill ever play a big role in my life again or if the bible's blabberings will 
remain just words to me.  I would have to say, I guess, that the religious
guilt I felt went to war with my religious beliefs and the two of them nearly
obliterated each other.  All the guilt I feel now is from denying my 
grandparents the chance to face me as a gay man and not as one of their two
"unmarried older grandchildren."  In other words, I feel guilty *now* from
those parts of my life where I remain in the closet, no matter how few. 

-Ken McCamish


      *           -The very idea that my opinions might resemble those of
     ***           Purdue University frightens me.  Please don't even
    *****          think about it.

endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu -the patron witch of mothers-in-law

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-----_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-____-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
"Blame not thyself; Cry         /    "Yes, we're all      /"I have to go to the
witch!  - Samantha Stevens     /  different! "           / bathroom, there's
                              /  "I'm not"  "Shh!"      / pees in there!" -
                             /                         / - Jeni Stein
_______---------_________--------_________----------_________--------________
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:39:53 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>How did you discover soc.motss? Did you find it at the same time you
>found Usenet, or later?

   When I first got onto Usenet, I was forced by the waffle newsreader
to read "Emily Postnews."  I also found news.lists and the "List of
Active Newsgroups."  At the time, it was actually short enough to print
out (1990), and I spent all night hiliting the groups I wanted to read.

   One thing that I'd always been interested in, despite my avowed
heterosexuality, was anal sex, and when I saw soc.motss I thought that
there was a bunch of people who could answer my questions.  Gods, did I
get flamed for that.

   But I stuck it out, because *someone* around here gave me straight
answer.  Now look where it got me... :-)

         Elf !!!

--
elf@halcyon.com  (Elf Sternberg)

Then, I was inspired.               God, thy will is hard
Now, I'm sad and tired.             But you hold every card.
Listen, surely I've exceeded        I will drink your cup of poison.
Expectations.                       Nail me to your cross and break me.
Tried for three years,              Bleed me, beat me.
Seems like thirty.                  Kill me.
Could you ask as much               Take me now.
From any other man?                 Before I change my mind.
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Better Year Ahead
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:09:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.012823.16079@flood.com>, tom@flood.com (Tom Chatt) writes:
> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> I *think* I agree with the gist of what you're getting at here --
> that this newsgroup should be *our* *home* and not the
> appropriate place to discuss whether our "lifestyle" is
> legitimate, and so on -- however, I do disagree that "who
> and what we are" is an inappropriate topic here.

yes, after all the soc. hierarchy of usenet is for social interaction.
the newsgroup alt.politics.homosexuality is the appropriate forum for
those other discussions.

Soc.motss has many non queer participants who do not use the newsgroup
as a battleground for their anti queer agenda, those  people should
feel as much *at home* here as us queers.

It feels good to be doing some housekeeping for 93.

LUX ./. owen


--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
	Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Denver Post: "Amendment 2 boycott spurs backlash"
Date: 3 Jan 93 23:33:12 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <C0AH8I.GGq@boulder.parcplace.com> gerber@boulder.parcplace.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:
>Boycotting Colorado is not likely to change the opinions of
>individuals.

Then I guess we'll have to turn the heat up even more with something
worse than a boycott.  Too bad some people don't know when to say when.
In the meantime we have other states to worry about and the boycott
is certainly making news all over.  

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Re: Jewish War Veterans on gays in military
Organization: Real/Time Communications
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 16:17:37 GMT

The co-author of the resolution is Arthur Schlosseerg and can be reached
care of Howard Metzer (press) at the Jewish War Veterans in DC.
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 2 Jan 93 21:58:38 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, brown@NCoast.ORG (Stan Brown) wrote:
>I hope that, the next time someone is tempted to post to the effect that
>soc.motss is "safe space" or "supportive", they wil remember this thread.

This is deja vu for me.  However, while quite possibly not "safe", I think
most of the replies in this thread have been "supportive."

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
"We Will Rebuild (tm)" - majority community response to Andrew
"We Will Redecorate" - gay community response to Andrew
From: rjudy@dime.cs.umass.edu (Judy Ruot)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: pounding the "10%" figure into the ground: Nature, 12/3/92
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:31:59 GMT
Reply-To: rjudy@dime.cs.umass.edu (Judy Ruot)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <13723@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <168C7D5B8.PKJAMES@UKCC.UKY.EDU>, PKJAMES@UKCC.UKY.EDU writes:
># I wish I could have said what you said.   I should have known by the
># time I looked at your sig you weren't from here.  I think we all like
># the USEnet because of it's complete openess-it's like a "freedom wall"
># where everyone can go, BUT that doesn't mean we have to agree and I will
># let you know that if that fucking Clayton ever comes here to KY and
># starts that bullshit-he better be bringing body guards.   He can say
># stuff like I'm crazy- I think he's the crazy one, and if he say's it to
># my face he's just damn suicidal.                Paul  (...xavier only
># mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun..smile)
># PAUL JAMES   (PKJAMES@UKCC.UKY.EDU)
>
>The average homosexual: he doesn't like what you say, so he threatens
>you with violence.
>

   Great, you're not only apparently a homophobe but sexist as well,
   Clayton:  "The average homosexual: he"... uh, I got news for you
   homosexuals come in both genders.  You seem to spend a lot of
   time trashing gays, Clay;  I can't help but wonder if you fall into
   the 70% range of folks on the Kinsey continuum of sexual identity who
   aren't exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. I also can't help but
   imagine that because of societal reasons and pressures, you have
   chosen, instead of loving and accepting the part of yourself that
    is homosexual, to turn homophobe instead; why else would you go
   on and on as you do with such bigoted homophobic tirades? 
   Just a hunch.  I, too, don't like what you say but have no intention
   whatsoever to threaten you with violence.  You're simply not worth
   the time or effort.  

jd
 
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: Charlie Fulton <charlie@isis.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Organization: Ctr for Advanced Rsrch in Oppressive Binarisms
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <BzLAw3.C2v@unix.amherst.edu> <1992Dec21.063757.14583@adobe.com>
     <1992Dec21.042214.5901@vpnet.chi.il.us>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:08:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.231739.8064@reed.edu> 
Nelson Minar, nelson@reed.edu writes:
>How did you discover soc.motss? Did you find it at the same time you
>found Usenet, or later?
>

I learned about soc.motss from reading crosspost headers in 
alt.poltics.homosexuality.  I doubt I would have found it
any other way.  It took me two weeks to find out what "motss"
even meant.  My first post: a comparison/contrast of the manner in 
which the Roman Catholic Church and the Phillips Exeter Academy 
dealt with their respective summer-of-92 betes noires, Father 
James Porter and Lane Bateman.  It was a crashing flop with not
even a flame posted in response.

Charlie
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 20:27:51 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

(Does this mean we're going to give calm discussion another chance, 
and stop flaming each other, or do you still want me to get out 
of your group?) 

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
> >(not to bait anyone..)  Did these places have laws that allowed this?  If 
> >they did, why wasn't there any boycott movement against these states? 
> >What has been done to fix those situations? 
> >
> 
> 	We're still trying to get anti-discrimination in those states.
> While you're right in saying that they aren't bastions of equality,
> they didn't pass an amendment making it impossible to INTRODUCE
> anti-discrimination, like CO did.

Yeah, I can see the difference.  Even though Colorado doesn't have
sodomy laws that make homosexual relations illegal like some of those 
other states, they did pass #2.  And since there are too many states 
that *do* have sodomy laws, they are too big a target to boycott. 
A single state is a more manageable target.  So is anything being 
done to convince straight people in these other states to repeal 
their sodomy laws?  Frankly, these sodomy laws seem to be a bigger 
threat; in Col, you can be discriminated against for being gay;
in the other states, you can be arrested and jailed.  Which is 
worse? 
 
Walter
From: liz@ai.mit.edu (Liz A. Highleyman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Origin of the term "straight" - help requested
Date: 30 Dec 92 12:12:10
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: ravenna.ai.mit.edu


I'm writing a piece on the term "straight" for the upcoming
Encyclopedia of Homosexuality.

I can't seem to determine when the word started to be used
to mean "heterosexual" -- though it certainly seems to
precede the post-Stonewall gay movement.

"Straight" is also used to mean someone who is mainstream
or not part of a given subculture (i.e., someone who does
not do drugs, someone who makes their money in non-criminal
or non-sex-industry pursuits).  When did this usage start,
and did it precede the "heterosexual" meaning.

Today, of course, "straight" is sometimes used to mean
conservative (and one occassionally hears of a "straight
gay man" or a "queer heterosexual").

Any help would be appreciated.....

BTW, I also said I'd try to find out about the term 
"kinky", which seems to have racial implications (i.e.,
weird sex is what those "kinky-headed" people did).

Again, I'd appreciate any insights or info.

I can only read news sporadically these days, so
please send replies to: liz@ai.mit.edu

Thanks!

-Liz
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Liz A. Highleyman                     MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
liz@ai.mit.edu                        Cambridge, MA  02139
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From:  David Christopher Rogers <drogers@riacs.edu>
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Originator: drogers@solstice.riacs.edu
Organization: RIACS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 03:28:22 GMT

    Message-ID: <1992Dec30.002532.28638@macc.wisc.edu>
    From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)

    >[T]here clearly is a much smaller tendency to hold over-zealous
    >woman-haters accountable (their numbers are massive) than to
    >hold over-zealous man-haters (their numbers are much
    >smaller) accountable.

This argument has been made a number of times, and is likely true, but I'm
left to wonder what is the conclusion I am to draw from this?  It's the
kind of argument often used to excuse the lesser of two evils.  Is there
something more subtle I'm missing here?

David Christopher Rogers

Newsgroups: soc.motss