From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Top 10 Reasons for Believing in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:56:28 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Apr14.201657.9976@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <22909@zephyr.ens.tek.com> davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>>>than "experiencing" a fire as nonburning is going to leave you unburned.
>>  If one can not internally experience Christ, than I would claim that
>>they do not *really* know Jesus Christ, and that they have not *really*
>>invited Jesus Christ into their hearts, and because of that, they can not
>>*really* know God through Jesus Christ.
>
>This reasoning suggests you should have experiences _and_ beliefs.  What you
>advocate is to have them _instead_of_ beliefs.

  I can see how that may seem so by how I have been coming across. But
remember, what got me started in this thread is that you wrote that the 
resurrection of Jesus Christ is "fact". To me that "fact" is more
rooted in a belief that is being pushed as "fact".

  With out any of us having been there, all we have is our belief that
it is a factual event that happened. But that's all mental in our
conceptions of the things that we read or talk over. I have these
mental conceptions of thing just like everyone else. I see them, and
know that I am tied to them like everyone else. But I also know that 
not one of my mental beliefs IS God or IS the awareness of God itself. 
And it is *my* desire to turn towards God totally and completely that
I yearn for. Stopping at beliefs seems to be like short sheeting myself
as far as fulfilling that desire of mine.

  I find that when I'm turned towards the beliefs that I
hold, I'm turning towards a different place than when I'm being
aware of the Divine or turning towards God. There's a whole
different space my being is in when I am turning towards the
awareness of the experience of the Divine. A shift of awareness
takes place. Things are just different between focusing upon beliefs
and focusing upon experiences.

>If by guide you mean a human guide, then our hypothetical powerful being can
>poke your guide in the brain too.  If by guide you mean a nonhuman spiritual
>guide, then this powerful being can poke your brain in the "experience the
>presence of a guide" area as well as the "experience the presence of God"
>area.

  Ya, it can go on for a long time. But sooner or later someone is going 
to poke their inner eye of love through the veil and behold God in all 
of His majesty, just as the prophets have done. And just as the prophets 
have done, and because of their own personal "experience", they will be 
able to give helpfull hints to others who also have that great inner 
desire to grow ever closer to their Beloved God. These helpfull hints 
will than be full of a much greater wisdom than if they were coming 
strictly from that place of beliefs because that knowedge gained as a 
result of the direct experience is much greater than what a focus of 
beliefs can ever depart to one.

  To me, this offers much more potential than what is offered to
people who never have a chance to get help from anyone because 
they have not bothered to find those souls who have been able
to see beyond the veil. Or, they did not even realize that there
was veil through which they could pass though.



	Ecstatic Love is an ocean, and the Milky Way
	is a flake of foam floating on it.
					Rumi

	David Hatcher