HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:12:45
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: muffy@mica.berkeley.edu's message of 28 Aug 1992 20:51:59 GMT

In article <17m3lfINN9s4@agate.berkeley.edu> muffy@mica.berkeley.edu writes:
> From: pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich)

Sorry, this artile got mangled in editing.  It is actually from Paul
Wallich, not me, so please direct any responses to him.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: tittle@alexandre-dumas.ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: NY Senate Race: Liz H
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:31:57 GMT

In <92Aug23.113828edt.7357@zooid.guild.org> goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves) writes:

>buckmr@rpi.EDU (Ron Buckmire) writes...
>RB> Cool! I was wondering what the poll numbers were like in Illinois.
>RB> Braun is definitely the choice: she's pro-choice, pro-gay and
>RB> pro-gressive!  Plus, Bush recently went to Illinois to campaign for
>RB> Williamson, Braun's (white male) Republican opponent. Bush has also
>RB> campaigned for D'Amato. ^^^^^^^^

>I'm just wondering why you found it relevant that Williamson is a "white
>male".

>Should this make him less worthy of being elected?

>A person's race and gender should *not* be the first thing that someone
>considers when discussing a person or especially the person's merits, but
>it seems that if a person is currently on the Politically Incorrect Dip List,
>he definitely has to be pointed out for the "patriarchal scum" that he is,
>hmm...?

>This is really no better than, for instance, subtly pointing out that a
>candidate with a non gender-specific name is actually a female and
>incidentally adding that you probably shouldn't vote for her...

While I do not dispute your view, the way I read the above was as a
way of pointing out the all-too-common alternative: Most of the time
papers will say something like "Braun, the black female campaigning
against Williamson..."  Actually, it's usually Carole Mosely Braun and
Williamson.  I am always appreciative of ways of pointing these kinds
of things out.  It is the same reason I always write "women and men"
instead of the more common ordering.  It's one of those "oh" experiences.

--Cindy


--
        Feminism is: "...a socialist, anti-family political movement
        that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their
        children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and
        become lesbians."                           --Pat Robertson

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From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: "sexual favors" as a "power base"
Date: 25 Aug 1992 18:12:05 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug21.144028.28157@cs.rose-hulman.edu> goddard@nextwork.rose-hulman.EDU (Bart Goddard) writes:
| In article <1712j2INN9vf@agate.berkeley.edu> pcg@aberystwyth.ac.uk
| (Piercarlo Grandi) writes:
| > On 16 Aug 92 14:29:46 GMT, muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy)
| said
| > things on which I mostly agree, but maybe she is interested in
| knowing a
| ...
| 
| men are told...
| women are told...
| men are told...
| women are told...
| men are told...
| women are told...
| men are told...
| women are told...
| men are told...
|   .
|   .
|   .
| Good greif! Can't ANYBODY think for themselves?

Sure, but they can't create a whole culture for
themselves.  About 99.99% of anyone's consciousness,
including the most original and creative minds,
is stuff someone told them.  And they tend to
believe what they're told most often.  We just don't
have time to think everything out all over again
every day.  Culture matters.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )



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From: dyer@marina.asd.sgi.com (Dyer Crouch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Walk For Choice
Date: 3 Sep 1992 17:23:31 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Keywords: walk, abortion
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

THE PRO-CHOICE COALITION OF SANTA CLARA COUNTY (CA.)
WILL BE PUTTING ON THE FOLLOWING:

THE 4TH ANNUAL  (drum roll.......)

**************************************************

     >>>>>>     WALK FOR CHOICE!       <<<<<<

**************************************************

EXPRESS YOUR OUTRAGE OVER THE EROSION OF OUR
REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS!!!!!!

             > 5K Walk and Rally <
    > Celebrity Speakers and Entertainment <


*WHAT IS THIS COALITION?

We are a coalition of Pro-Choice groups dedicated
to keeping abortion acessible, safe and legal.
Some of our member groups are:
The Democratic Central Committee / ACLU /
Catholics For Choice / Republicans For Choice /
Planned Parenthood / Santa Clara Womens Community
Clinic / CARAL / Leauge of Women Voters / NOW
and more. We have about thirty membership
orginizations.
WE ARE A NON-PROFIT GROUP.


*WHY?

We raise money each year to cover our expenses as
well as help others in the pro-choice community.
For instance, we have given donations to member
organizations for various pro-choice functions
and events. We sent $1000.00 to the Redding, (CA.)
Feminist Women's Health Center after they suffered
another fire at the hands of arsonists. We sponsor
events such as the "Religion, Abortion, Politics
Fourum" where members of various faiths are
invited to discuss thier views on abortion.


*WHEN?

****** SUNDAY, October 25 / Rain or Shine! ******


WHERE?

***** Plaza Park (In front of the Fairmont) *****
***** Market and San Fernando in downtown  *****
***** San Jose. *****


################################################

 INTERESTED IN VOLUNTEERING OR WOULD LIKE MORE
 INFORMATION???  CONTACT ME:
 E-MAIL:  dyer@asd.sgi.com

 Please indicate the following:

 A. I would like to Volunteer for helping with
    the walk.

 B. I would like a "Walk Packet" including more
    information, as well a sponsor sheet.

 C. I would like to be contacted for more
    information.

You can include name, address, phone, and
E-mail address if possible. If you do not feel
comfortable with some of the above info, please
send enough info so someone can contact you, or
send information.

              Thanks, dyer.





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From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.EDU (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: male/female joy of sex
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:18:07 GMT

In article <17bb4gINNg9p@agate.berkeley.edu> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>I think the "tyranny of the orgasm" has a lot to do with the
>ideology of production and consumption in a capitalist culture.
>...  If one doesn't produce one (in both oneself and the
>partner(s), at exactly the same moment) one has _failed_.  It's
>as if the GNP went down.

Yes -- but what does the P stand for?   (It probably ties in well
with your male-oriented theory...   }:-)

Don
--
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged

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From: rdh@veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: feminism callous to m
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: VERITAS Software
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:51:28 GMT

In article <17qu7tINNqra@agate.berkeley.edu> goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves) writes:
>uunet!mailrus!gatech!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.ucar.EDU (Cindy Bla
>nk-Edelman) writes...
>
>CB> I think the main problem is one of communication.  When men talk
>CB> to me about their concerns or issues (and in my entire life that
>CB> has only happened on soc.feminism), I hear them expecting me to
>CB> give up my issues because theirs are the *real* issues.  I hear
>CB> them blaming me for not working on their issues.
>
>As one of the only men who has spoken to you about his concerns on
>issues, I should add that I have never once claimed that you, or any
>other person concerned with women's issues, should "give up"
>anything.  Robert Coleman has not asked you *anything* of this sort,
>either, nor has Robert Hartman, and I can probably list others.

I'm afraid I must disagree.  Many men have and continue to do that.
In my past, I have.  I believe that Robert Coleman has asked the
women's movement to subsume its autonomy into something "larger."  But
who is to set that "larger" agenda?

>We are only *hoping* that the women's movement be OPEN-MINDED, rather
>than simply call us sexist pigs or "spoiled boys".  (GOiD!  I think
>that Alan and the other U of T'ers are going to slap me silly if I
>keep on going back to that quote from the U of T Women's Centre
>Coordinator...  :-) ).

Well, I hope that too, but it may another generation for that to
happen.  Personally, I'm willing to wait--there's plenty of
consciousness-raising to be done among men!

-r

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From: goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: In Defense of Feminism's Detractors...
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:48:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

jyanowitz@hamp.hampshire.EDU writes...
JY> Origin: This mailing list came about because of my desire to talk
JY> about these issues on the internet and the lack of a forum to do so
JY> in.  It didn't seem appropriate to use soc.feminism for this
JY> discussion, as that would be repeating a common pattern of male
JY> co-optation of women's spaces (although men post there, it's often
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While I laud your efforts to do something to advance the cause of feminism,
which you feel strongly about, I do not think much of your attempt to
collectively bash men as people who apparently by nature are "co-opting women's
spaces".  Indeed on Usenet there are *no* women's spaces and no *men's* spaces,
either.  There are, however, *discussion groups* for men and women to talk
openly, and if there happen to be more men than women, then please kindly do
not blame men in general for it.

And if there happen to be more men who disagree with feminism than there are
women who agree with it, then go ahead and start your own group (as you have
done) rather than endlessly gripe about all the "women haters" with whom you
hold disagreements.  Indeed, if the tables were turned, ie., more pro-feminist
people than dissenters, *you* would certainly be leading the charge against
*us*, would you not?


JY> done to dialogue (ugh, I can't believe I used that as a verb) with
JY> women).  And of course, soc.men (aka soc.patriarchy, soc.not.my.fault,
JY> soc.bash.women, soc.kill.fags, soc.i'm.so.oppressed) wasn't exactly a
JY> friendly forum. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hold on a second... While there have been "patriarchal" posters and heterosexist
posters, these are *not* the majority, not by far.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * ZOOiD BBS (416) 322-7856 -- Honk.


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From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Subject: "sexual favors" as a "pow
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:18:21 GMT

muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) writes...
MB> Now, in the context of "modern relationships," things change a little.
MB> Women can now have sex with one or two people before getting married.
MB> They can also support themselves to some degree, so that getting married
MB> is not a necessity.  However, once they *are* married, things are often
MB> much the same.  Once they have children, it is much harder to support
MB> them on their own, so they are again compelled to attempt to stay with
MB> the man for financial reasons.  In addition, while women can support
MB> themselves better now, the situation is still not good.  The slight
MB> improvement is that they have less trouble getting child support when
MB> divorcing.  So, now men can find many more women to have sex with
MB> without marrying them.  Meanwhile, once in the context of a marriage,
MB> men still have more power.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This really depends on what you call "power".  If "money is power,"
then yes, men *do* have more power.  BUT, you are ignoring the fact
that the husband is *also* compelled, or at least *feels a compulsion*
to stay with the wife, because he knows damn well that if the marriage
ends, he has a snowball's chance in Hell of ever seeing his children
with any sort of respectable frequency within two years of the end of
the marriage.  So, if you consider closeness with one's children to be
more of a power issue than money, then without a doubt, women still
have more power in that area.

And that, to *me*, is a *powerful* compulsion for me to stay in my
marriage, among other things :-) (okay, okay, allow me to have a
prurient sense of humour sometimes, *please*...).  But on a serious
note, I am sure that a lot of men who *might* have wanted to get out
of a marriage will be thinking twice about it.

Conversely too, a lot of women who might also have been thinking of
leaving, will realise their possibilities of ecomomic difficulties,
and will also be thinking twice...

As I have always said, and will keep on saying, power isn't just on
the side of men ; it goes both ways, and ignoring one side for the
other will not get anyone *anywhere*.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Computer Lie #1:  You'll never use all that disk space...

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From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Subject: Re: NY Senate Race: Liz H
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:07:48 GMT

buckmr@rpi.EDU (Ron Buckmire) writes...
RB> Cool! I was wondering what the poll numbers were like in Illinois.
RB> Braun is definitely the choice: she's pro-choice, pro-gay and
RB> pro-gressive!  Plus, Bush recently went to Illinois to campaign for
RB> Williamson, Braun's (white male) Republican opponent. Bush has also
RB> campaigned for D'Amato. ^^^^^^^^

I'm just wondering why you found it relevant that Williamson is a "white
male".

Should this make him less worthy of being elected?

A person's race and gender should *not* be the first thing that someone
considers when discussing a person or especially the person's merits, but
it seems that if a person is currently on the Politically Incorrect Dip List,
he definitely has to be pointed out for the "patriarchal scum" that he is,
hmm...?

This is really no better than, for instance, subtly pointing out that a
candidate with a non gender-specific name is actually a female and
incidentally adding that you probably shouldn't vote for her...

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Money is always there, but the pockets change.

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From: ckile@andy.bgsu.edu (crystal kile)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Midwest Feminist Graduate Student Conference
Followup-To: poster
Date: 1 Sep 1992 07:16:40 GMT
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Keywords: feminist
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

ANNOUNCING THE SEVENTH ANNUAL MIDWEST FEMINIST GRADUATE STUDENT CONFERENCE
                          
                        "(EX)PRESSING FEMINISMS"
                          February 12-14, 1993
       		     Bowling Green State University
		          Bowling Green, Ohio

	   (a flat, but quaint place 20 miles south of Toledo)
 
The 1993 MFGSC, organized for and by graduate students in all disciplines,
will be a supportive and dynamic forum in which participants may present
or perform, either individually or collectively, finished works or works
in progress. 

DIVERSITY of viewpoints and voices is most welcome.  Projected program
topics include but are not limited to feminism, womanism, social and 
cultural theories, identity, the subaltern, sexuality, lesbian representation,
communications, spirituality, backlash issues, multiculturalism, and 
pedagogy.

FORMATS will include panels, roundtable discussions, and performances, with 
3-5 concurrent sesions running all day Saturday and on Sunday morning. 
Roundtable discussions on such topics as women in academia, alliances across
disciplines, race, class, gender and the latest hot feminist topics will 
be essential to the conference.  Conferees may choose or be asked to launch
these roundtable discussions.

SOCIAL activities include a Saturday night banquet and readings, performances,
and political commentary by conferees.  Please indicate your interest in 
participating in the Open Mike on your proposal.

PROPOSALS for presentations or panels should take the form of one-page
abstracts.  Your name, address, phone number, institution, and e-mail
address (if you have one) should appear only on a separate title page.
Panelists should plan on giving fifteen-minute presentations.  Performances
may be longer.  Roundtable discussants should plan to limit presentations to
five minutes. 

	Send proposals -- postmarked by October 15, 1992 -- to
	     Midwest Feminist Graduate Student Conference
                       Women's Studies Program
		    Bowling Green State University
	              Bowling Green, Ohio 43403
	                  
                          (419) 372-7133      

e-mail: ckile@andy.bgsu.edu
	ckile@opie.bgsu.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________
    PLEASE COPY THIS ANNOUNCEMENT AND PASS IT ON TO YOUR COLLEAGUES!!!
              Feel free to re-post or publish it anywhere.
_____________________________________________________________________________  


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From: obermark@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Jon Obermark)
Subject: Re: essays on child custody
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:55:47 GMT

KATHY MCCLOSKEY <KMCCLOSKEY@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL> writes:

>To reiterate, the majority of custody goes to females because males
>do not contest.  In the majority of cases where the male does
>contest, he wins

I have seen the effects on children of being fought over and find it
insulting to divorced men as a group that people keep mentioning the
fact that these folks generally do not contest these cases.  Most of
the divorced men I know who still have reasonable relationships with
their children also respect their ex-spouses (even if they hate them),
and thus did not contest the decision in favor of the mother, but
later "decided out of court" how joint custody should be arranged and
then brought this decision to the court.  I think reducing the level
of state involvement in the construction of your childs life is often
an act of kindness to the child, not disinterest!  Most states are
REALLY BAD at such things.

>custody.  However, the point of this chapter was that father's rights
>groups point to the first statistic as evidence that there is bias
>against them, neglecting to state also that it's because the males in
>these cases did not contest custody.

Also, note that discouragement is truly a real force.  Men in our
society are told that they cannot raise children, that resquesting
custody of them is doing them a great disfavor.  The court decisions
make little or no difference as long as this remains the case.

>  These groups virtually ignore the latter statistic.

I am no foe of statistics, I recently made a post here consisting
almost entirely of statistics.  BUT if I may hold forth a bit on (my)
principles ...  Statistics are relevant only insofar as they
communicate real aspects of real lives.  One uses the statistics that
least abiguously communicate the occurances one wishes to focus upon.
To select which statistics to quote is not a sin.

The commonly quoted statistics tell me that our society believes that
men's effects on their children are less important than women's.

The other statistics tell me that men have more of the power needed to
manipulate institutions like courts than their corresponding
(ex-)wives.

The latter is male privilege (better documented in other ways).  The
former is just as clearly female privilege.  Trying to "counter" the
one set of statistics with the other seems like an attempt to deny the
existence of female privilege.  I can't see any other point.

Both exist. Both are wrong. I suggest we fight against them, not about
them.

                                     -- Jay Obermark
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