From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: Serdar and his secret admirers
Date: 23 Dec 1992 08:19:47 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!ptg2351 Sun Dec 22 19:44:55 1992 
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:44:55 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>Hilmi Eren writes:

> 
>    If you really think so, then where is *your* argumentation? 
>    I forgot, as usual you have none, please don't waste your time
>    to write stupid things  like :"WOW, and ^H^H^H^H^..... 
>    If you have the least sensible thing to say then i'm listening, else  
>    you should SHUT up too.
> 
>I bet you have a lot of respect for someone that does not listen to   
>arguments (argumentation? ouch!), does not even have the arxidia to 
>post under his own name, has violated every rule on Usenet, has forged
>articles for MONTHS, has made libel accusations on the net, uses a program
>to respond to irrelevant articles, etc.
> 
  I bet she does have a lot of respect for Arxid.  After all, this is the
  so called pezeveng rationale. You "take it or leave it." 

>Regards,
> 
>Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
>(Self appointed Mutlu historian)

 Merry Christmas,

 Panos

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!ptg2351 Sun Dec 22 20:01:50 1992 
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: : Macedonian Nationality
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:01:50 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>Why not try sharing something which clearly you can't steal just for
>yourself? That way we could all be happy - it is the season of good will
>you know.

 Yes, why not sharing some land too? After all, "Greece occupies Macedonia",
 which "has never been Greek."  Fine points, of course, for a pseudo-historian
 who keeps prostituting history.

>Merry Christmas
>Andy

 Likewise,

 Panos.

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!gateway Sun Dec 22 20:20:28 1992 
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:20:28 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

King Palik (Sorry Panos, I just have this vision of you on a Throne :-) writes:
>  I bet she does have a lot of respect for Arxid.  After all, this is the
>  so called pezeveng rationale. You "take it or leave it." 
 
Opws dhladh leme kai emeis, 

"ton pairnei h den ton pairnei"

Ouch! 

Spiros

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!walter!troy!cza Sun Dec 22 22:14:34 1992 
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: continuation on Cyprus, Walmart, Mexico...
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:14:34 GMT
Organization: BCR, NJ-USA

In article <199212220440.AA03704@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>
>I would not say I'm getting personal; In Besime's case and a bit in
>yours I used universally acceptable Argic Methods. He's been getting
>away with it for years, I might as well ride in his (oops, His) coattails.
Point is not to emulate an unwelcomed attitude.  There
are people in this net who also resort to vulgarity and get
away with it (at least it seems so).  Your track record
was very good to suspect that you would emulate that behavior
too.  But hey!, your patronizing attitude in Besime's case
made me think for a moment.  She has already conceded for
her mistakes regarding your name.  After that point, trying to 
provoke her further is not very intellectual in my opinion. 

>not. You, on the other hand, know better. Again I apologise for the mean
>spirit of my message. I only wish others apologised for their acts.
>

No problem at all.  When I wrote what I wrote, I knew that
i would offend people who deserves better for the sake of getting
through to my target with all regret.  There are some genuine 
attempts here to present their case with respect and dignity.
The others (who I despised immensely) who do not care anybody but 
their own edge.  Their idea is to see how much they can go on by turning
this medium into a mud-wrestling.  Unfortunately, that is what they 
enjoy the most.  The only laguage that they understand is the language 
of their own.  So, one could not help but provide their daily dose for 
the rest of the day.  Ignoring them does not help either. 
Their pea-brain interprets that situation as winning the 
debate.  They come back more obnoxious and repugnant than ever before.
How much one can tolerate reading "ethnic cleansing in Cyprus by Turks"
in the eve of 28th anniversary of the bloody Xmas massacre which were
committed against 203 Turkish people mostly women and children.  There 
were 103 villages had to be evacuated to be bulldozed 28 years ago 
(from yesterday).  How does this jibe with that "ethnic cleansing by 
Turks in Cyprus"?  So, there is a line to be drawn.

>
>Not at all. In all my years of reading soc.culture.whatever this is
>the first time I've seen the analogy come up. I've been debating this since
>1983, by the way, back when I was at the University of Southwestern Louisiana,
>and people like Tuna Ertemalap and Metin Topcan were around (this was a
>bit later, maybe 1985). 
>
>The circumstances surrounding Arafat and Denktash are quite different. I
>do not see how anyone could make the analogy. 

So why GC demand for someone else to negotiate with.  He
is a legitimate TRNC leader.
>
>Since there is no opposition, thanks to the instant-o-citizens (see settlers).
Why there should be an oposition if he demands what is
good for TRNC.  I hope you see the anology after hearing
what you said here.  Arafat has no oposition and he is not a true 
representative of Palestinians.  This is a good tactic to
just blunder the minds in the West.

>
>> Moreover, there is no
>>equitable solution for everybody's satisfaction in Cyprus.
>
>How so? In my own model of the solution, I'd let the 40% occupied land
>stand. I'd let the settlers if they were really necessary, and I'd get
>rid of the Turkish army. I'd organize a TRNC army. So far so good?
>
>Then, I'd start running TRNC as a NATION. Not as a PROTECTORATE which
>is what it basically is now. 
>
>The steps above would ensure that United Nations would take a more
>symphathetic (these %#$% Greek words) attitude towards TRNC. 
>
>Then, under UN's (or anyone else's, i.e. EEC, Arab League, ...) I'd set
>up a commitee to investigate property losses. We are not talking about
>Manhattan, New York, mind you. Cyprus is a small place and  the process
>can get done quickly. I'd only do it at the  immovable property level,
>i.e. houses/businesses. Land will be trickier but I'd say that there is
>enough for everyone. Cyprus' national tree is not the ROCK like in Greece.
>
>It would thus be easy to calculate the amount of $$$ lost to the South
>and North, and appropriate renumeration given to BOTH sides. Since the
                            %%%%%%%%%%%%
>governments of Greece and Turkiye would also be involved, they could
>contribute some of their $$$ as well.

Remuneration= "pay" right?

Are you serious or just uzo is talking momentarily 8-)?   You 
must be the "bachelor" in popular saying that goes "divorsing wife is 
so easy to a bachelor."  Well. I misunderstood your term of "equitable 
solution" all along then.   If this was your equtable solution, let 
Denktash know it immediately.  He would start the "sirtaki" at the 
moment that he hears this.  Rest assured that he would be more than 
heppy to make you an honorary citizen of TRNC.  He is already willing 
to give up 6% of the land, you know.  This would be a bonus for such 
understanding gesture.  I bet that you would not find a single taker 
from the GC's for this deal.  Otherwise, we would not be here 
discussing this issue.  Even Denktash is not dreaming to get such a 
deal from GCs.  

Cheers! 

C. AKgun

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!concert!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!gd8f Sun Dec 22 22:02:46 1992 
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Re : Macedonian Nationality
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:02:46 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <BznMM0.H3I@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:


                  :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))


>Merry Christmas
>
>Andy


 Merry X-mas Andy!
                   We try to be good with all during these holly days!


 Gr

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bcars6f5!faruk Sun Dec 22 22:17:44 1992 
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Argic
Summary: A fool wishing a Moslem Turk Merry Christmas, believes a revisionist
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:17:44 GMT
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Canada

In article <1992Dec20.224612.5721@bmerh85.bnr.ca> faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk
od Bosne) wrote:

[F] I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
[F] about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
[F] suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
[F] a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
[F] documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
[F] unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
[F] However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
[F] is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
[F] and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.

>You sir, were fooled. I personally refuted every bit of his revisionism,
>exposed every one of his omissions, deletions, etc. I guess you never bothered
>to read them, or for that matter, I never bothered to post them to
soc.culture.
>croatia. Well, sir, it's not surprising you were fooled so easily, since you
>wished "Merry Christmas" to a Moslem Turk!

First of all I am not discriminating people by religion or nationality. 
Second I didn't wish "Merry Christmas" to anybody. What you see in a subject 
header is Re to someone else. So my advise to you is to read the article
before jumping to conclusion.

A. >"However, upon the breaking out of the World War the massacres
recommenced with
> such violence that, of the two and a half million Armenians that lived in 
> Turkey before 1914, I believe not even one half million remain, including the
> three to four hundred thousand who dwelt in Constantinople and Smyrna, and 
> who, by means of I know not what miracle, escaped the deportation and 
> lived." [1]

>             -- Inspector General of the Turkish Forces in Armenia,
Nogalas Bey
>
>				 - - - reference - - -

>[1] _Four Years Beneath the Crescent_ Rafael De Nogalas, Inspector General of
>    Turkish Forces in Armenia and Military Governor of Egyptian Sinai During 
>    the War, Translated from the Spanish by Muna Lee, Charles Scribner's Sons,
>    New York, London, 1926, page 17


-- 
>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org>  |B."The Regular Army of the
Ottomans was 
>SDPA Center for Regional Studies      |   entirely innocent of the Armenian 
>P.O. Box 382761                       |   massacres." - Inspector General of 
>Cambridge, MA 02238                   |   the Turkish forces in Armenia, WWI 

Aren't your own two quotes A. and B. conflicting? Serdar most of the time
quotes relevant sources without introducing his personality. Comparing his
sources with yours, the only explanation I can come up with is that at the
begining of the WW1 when Turkey was attacked from outside, Armenians committed
genocide over unprotected Turkish population massacreing (as Serdar said)
2.5 millions Turks. When the Turks gained back the control they retaliated.
Therefore I do not see the parallel between serbs who instigated a conflict
in Bosnia and Turks who were, at that time, defending their country. 	

Faruk.

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!murdoch!kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU!gd8f Sun Dec 22 22:40:04 1992 
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Stating relegion on IDs (Re: W/E News)
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:40:04 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1992Dec22.180042@imhfhp16.epfl.ch> gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros Gavrilakis) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.063804.17896@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:
>|> 
>|> 
>|>  I disagree with this statement. Greece is the only EC country
>|>  which neighbors to a non-Christian country. And this creates
>|>  a lot of political friction.
>|> 
>
>Could u plz explain the above?  Documenting relegion will probably
>cause friction with other EC countries rather than anything else.


 "Cause friction with other EC countries"? So what? Didn't Danmark
  cause friction for the very existence of EC? Didn't everybody
  bend in their demands?

  When EC guarantees the Greek territory against any other state,
  then Greece can bow to EC demands wrt her security.

  An identity card is a civil document. A document which creates
  differentiation between citizens and not citizens (eg permanent
  residents). Then why not to differentiate between religions.
  My argument is: 

1. On philosophical grounds, is that the state discriminates
   based on (eg) place of birth; then why not on crucial importance's 
   for its security philosophical beliefs.

2. On legal grounds, the constitution states that Greece is a predominantly
   Orthodox state. Freedom of religion is an other matter unrelated to
   security concerns (in which case the individual is subjected to state's
   will (as defined by the principle of democratic representation))

3. On practical grounds, countries have been created based on religious
   beliefs (eg Israel, Pakistan); Turkey IS acting as a "protector" of the
   Balkan muslims. Till all the relevant dangers disappear, then Greek 
   state owes to protect itself.


Gr

PS: The most "strange" appplication form seen so far was that from the
    "Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center". Not only citizenship and religion
     were asked, but also nationality...!

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd Sun Dec 22 23:42:08 1992 
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,soc.history,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serdar's admirer!!! (Re: Merry Christmas, Argic)
Summary: Is Hilmi Eren behind door #1,#2, or #3
Keywords: Faruk the fool
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:42:08 GMT
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies

In article <1992Dec22.115035.21138@kth.se> hilmi-er@tess.enet.dec.com (Hilmi
Eren) response to Yannis Schoinas who wrote:

[YS] faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne) writes:

[F] I would like to extend my thanks to Serdar Argic in revealing us the truth 
[F] about the events in Turkey during WW1. Before reading his articles I have 
[F] suspected (altough never believed) that Turks massacred Armenians during 
[F] a campaign of defending the very existance of their homeland. His thorough 
[F] documentation showed that Armenians were in fact massacreing Turks in 
[F] unprotected villages while Turkish Army was busy defending the country. 
[F] However, for some people the truth seems to be very painful. As the case 
[F] is, Serdar, this (desperation?) is their problem, not yours. Thanks again 
[F] and keep up good work. May I extend very best wishes in upcoming year.

In response to the flaming "[F]", Yannis Schoinas noted:

[YS] Yes, it is Christmas and it's this time of the year that miracles do
[YS] happen. And even Serdar Argic, the most despised net persona, the lover 
[YS] of the kill files, the (in)famous broken AI program, has found an admirer.
[YS] Days of magic and grace,:-).
[YS]
[YS] Perhaps, I should get Serdar out of my kill file these loving days. Don't 
[YS] you think that I was too mean to have kept him there for so long?
[YS]
[YS]					Enjoy the holidays,
[YS]					     Yannis.
[YS]
[YS] ps: Faruk, you were kidding, right?

[HE] PS2: No, i think he was not kidding, and i agree with him.
[HE]      If you don't have anything sensible to say then shut up!

Well, just what do you agree with? If you agree with Mr. [F], then you must
be a fool. If you agree with what he agrees with you must also agree with
Huseyin Necati, the Ankara's Young Turk Responsible Secretary who, during the
11th sitting (March 5, 1919) of the WWI Turkish War Trials, was characterized
by the former mutasarrif of Yozgat, Cemal by the following story:

 "It is a bizarre story. A short, slim, and blondish man, he came to me one
  day with a piece of paper which he wouldn't show me, but which purported to
  be an order from Atif, governor of Ankara. Necati then told me that he was
  a political agent in Azerbaijan when Armenian bands 'massacred Muslims there.
  We must retaliate now with the extermination of the local Armenians.' I
  replied as follows: 'This is not Azerbaijan and there are no Armenian bands
  massacring Muslims. You were a former gendarme. What political business did
  you have in the Caucasus? To me you are not an official, you have no
  responsibilities. You are not willing to show me that piece of paper in
  your hand.' He repeated his proposal of massacre, adding: 'This proposal
  reflects the will of the Ittihad's [Young Turk] central committee." My 
  response was: 'If the central committee indeed wills it, let it communicate
  directly with the government, the only instance from which I can take
  orders.' Disgruntled, Necati left for Corum and I was dismissed within
  about fifteen days." 

OK, Eren, with which do you agree with?

1) If you agree with Faruk the Bosnian, you are a fool, as is he,

2) If you agree with what Faruk the Bosnian claims is correct, you are a 
   revisionist,

3) If you agree with the accounts of the 1919 Turkish War Trails, you are in
   agreement with history but in disagreement with both (1) & (2).

So tell us, are you behind door #1, door #2, door #3, or are you still in the
closet!


-- 
David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org>  |  "The Regular Army of the Ottomans was 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies      |   entirely innocent of the Armenian 
P.O. Box 382761                       |   massacres." - Inspector General of 
Cambridge, MA 02238                   |   the Turkish forces in Armenia, WWI 

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd        

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd        

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!urartu.sdpa.org!dbd        

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!varnavas Mon Dec 23 00:47:09 1992 
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:47:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>Right from the outset certain things must be made clear to everyone.
>Turkiye's territorial integrity is not negotiable. If some day the
>white-hating black extremists [or Klu Klux Klan or Nazi Armenians, 
>for that matter] in this country would go far enough to want an 
>independent purely black [or white or Nazi Armenian] state, I do not 
>believe that the United States Government would just donate part of its 
>territory for this 'noble cause.' I do not want to even imagine
>what the white majority [or blacks] will do to them. The pundits
>who love to construct some of the scenarios that give large chunks
>of other peoples' lands to Kurds, would not be that generous with
>their own lands. Have you ever heard of 'The Turkish Independence
>War?'

Given your above argument, how do you justify the Turkish invasion in Cyprus
in Cyprus and the establisment of a separate state for a minority roughly
the size (proportionately) of the Kurdish minority in Turkey?
Maybe, double standards of Turkish policy according to convenience?
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uunet!psinntp!factory!michael.polymenakos Sun Dec 22 18:44:00 1992 
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: HELP WITH TYPING GREEK O
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:44:00 GMT
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis


>
>Does anyone have a list of set rules for typing Greek words in English
>phonetics translation?  I've noticed that many of you are submitting
>articles using phonetic equivalents.  Is there a standard that you are
>all using?  I'm just learning the language and I think reading and
>writing Greek on the net could help.  I have a few books that give
>their versions of the phonetics, but don't you think we should all try
>to use the same translation?  Ellinika einai ena oraia glossa!! but how
>to spell it out in English is quite a problem!!!  Help!

 The greeks call it 'frankolebantinika', writing Greek with latin
("french") characters.

I type the alphabet as:
ABGDEZHQIKLMNJOPRSTYFXCW

This is a visual, rather than a phonetic correspondence. Most Greeks on
this board do the same, though almost everyone chooses a different way
to represent Theta, Ksi and Psi.

Welcome to the club!

Michael
                                                                                                                         

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uunet!psinntp!factory!michael.polymenakos Sun Dec 22 18:58:00 1992 
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,bit.listerv.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Macedonian World Congress
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:58:00 GMT
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis



SAS Writes:
> 3) Macedonian was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, Greece
>    was often subject to Macedonia. In 1913, Greece and her Balkan
>    allies partitioned Macedonia, and if today a portion of
>    Macedonian belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal
                                                         ~~~~~~~
>    partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.
     ~~~~~~~~~                  ~~~~~~~~~~


  So much for the claim by some that pseudo-"Macedonia" has no
territorial claims against Greece. All this talk of 'occupation' of
Macedonia by Greece is made for only one reason: To support claims
against Greece in the future.


Michael
                                                                                                  

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 00:59:42 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: The Armenian genocide of 600,000 Kurds (Re: Resisting occupation)
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:59:42 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <42781@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

>	The Kurds are not treated equally.  They are a powerless
>	oppressed ethnic group, and they have fought for centuries

And let the Kurdish scholars speak for themselves.

Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.

 "When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster 
  of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular 
  Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of 
  these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
  These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
  than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in 
  the eastern vilayets of Turkey."


Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."


Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin 
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918). 
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
 numbered 1869.

"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
 with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
 in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
 withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
 massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
 in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
 selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
 were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
 being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part 
 of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
 cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
 from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
 in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
 Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
 exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
 Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
 that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
 in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
 on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
 left behind after their occupation of this area."
 
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:01:22 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: He participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:01:22 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1h54i7INNrae@network.ucsd.edu> dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins) writes:

>I apologize to all who were offended by a quote I used in my last post.
>It was tasteless and unnecessary.

The liar's candle will not last long. Again, I will dissect 
article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line, lie-by-lie, 
revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan to 'prove' 
that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is nothing 
less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in x-Soviet 
Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship, 
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, 
feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF 
terrorists, the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with 
the Armenian criminal organizations.

Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and 
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 

p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as 
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work 
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. 
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts 
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable 
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets 
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They 
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border 
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole 
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to 
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain 
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of 
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for 
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the 
 scattered bones of the dead." 

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:02:30 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: continuation on Cyprus, ENOSIS (union of Cyprus with Greece)
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:02:30 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1992Dec21.230227.4563@wuecl.wustl.edu> tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David) writes:

>	Okan, show me "a single documented proof" that the Rebublic of Cyprus
>has enosis desires. Make sure it's official though.

Where shall I begin?

        The  Letter  Sent by Archbishop Makarios to the President of  the 
        Greek Republic, General Phaedon Gizikis on 2 July 1974

        Mr President,

          It  is with profound grief that I have set out for you  certain 
        inadmissable  situations and events in Cyprus for which I  regard 
        the Greek government responsible.

           Since  the clandestine arrival of General Grivas in Cyprus  in 
        September 1971, rumours have been circulating and there have been 
        reliable  indications that he came to Cyprus at  the  instigation 
        and  with the encouragement of certain circles in Athens.  In any 
        case, it is certain that from the first days of his arrival here, 
        Grivas  was in touch  with officers from Greece  serving  in  the 
        National  Guard  from whom he received help and  support  in  his 
        effort  to set up an unlawful organisation and allegedly to fight 
        for   Enosis.   And   he  established  the  criminal   EOKA   'B' 
        organization,  which  has  become the cause and  source  of  many 
        sufferings for Cyprus.  The activity of this organization,  which 
        has  committed  political murders and many other crimes  under  a 
        patriotic  mantle advancing Enosis slogans,  is well  known.  The 
        National  Guard,   which  is  staffed  and  controlled  by  Greek 
        Officers,  has  been from the outset the main supplier of men and 
        material  to EOKA 'B',  the members and supporters of  which were 
        euphemistically self-styled the 'Enosis camp'.

           I  have many times asked myself why an unlawful and nationally 
        harmful  organization which is creating division and  dissension, 
        causing rifts in our internal front and leading the Greek Cypriot 
        people  to civil strife,  is supported by Greek officers.  And  I 
        have  also  many  times wondered whether  such  support  has  the 
        approval  of  the Greek government.  I have done a great deal  of 
        thinking and made many hypothetical assumptions in order to find a 
        logical reply to my questions.  No reply, under any prerequisites 
        and  assumptions  could be based on  logic.  However,  the  Greek 
        officers'  support for EOKA B constitutes an undeniable  reality. 
        The  National  Guard  camps in various areas of  the  island  and 
        nearby  sites  are smeared with slogans in favour of  Grivas  and 
        EOKA  B and also against the Cyprus government  and  particularly 
        myself. In the National Guard camps, propaganda by Greek officers 
        in favour of EOKA B is often undisguised.  It is also known,  and 
        an  undeniable  fact,  that the opposition Cypriot  press,  which 
        supports  the  criminal  activity of EOKA B  and  which  has  its 
        sources  of  finance in Athens,  receives guidance and  direction 
        from  those  in charge of the 2nd General Staff  Office  and  the 
        branch of the Greek Central Intelligence Service in Cyprus.

           It is true that frequent complaints were conveyed by me to the 
        Greek  Government  about  the  attitude  and  conduct  of  certain 
        officers,  and  I  have  received  the reply that  I  should  not 
        hesitate  to report them by name and state the  specific  charges 
        against  them so that they could be recalled from Cyprus.  I  did 
        this  only  in one instance.  This is an unpleasant task for  me. 
        Moreover,  this  evil cannot be remedied by such means.  What  is 
        important  is  the uprooting and prevention of the evil  and  not 
        merely the facing of its consequences.

           I am sorry to say,  Mr President, that the root of the evil is 
        very deep,  reaching as far as Athens.  It is from there that the 
        tree of evil, the bitter fruits of which the Greek Cypriot people 
        are tasting today, is being fed and maintained and helped to grow 
        and spread. In order to be absolutely clear, I say that cadres of 
        the  Greek military regime support and direct the  activities  of 
        EOKA B terrorist organization. This explains also the involvement 
        of Greek officers of the National Guard in illegal activities and 
        in  conspiratorial and inadmissible situations. The guilt of  the 
        circles of the military regime  is proved by documents which were 
        found recently in the leading cadres of EOKA B.  Plenty of  money 
        was  sent  from  the National Center for the maintenance  of  the 
        organization and directives were given concerning the  leadership 
        after  the death of Grivas and the recall of Major Karousos,  who 
        had  come  to  Cyprus with  him,  and  generally  everything  was 
        directed from Athens.  The genuineness of the documents cannot be 
        called  into  question because even those which  are  typewritten 
        have  corrections made by hand and the handwriting of the  writer 
        is known. I attach one such document.

           I  have  always adhered to the principle,  and I have on  many 
        occasions stated,  that my co-operation with the Greek government 
        for  the  time  being is for me a  national  duty.  the  national 
        interests dictate harmonious and close cooperation between Athens 
        and Nicosia.  No matter what Greek government was in power it was 
        to  me the government of mother country and I had  to  co-operate 
        with  it.  I cannot say that I have a special liking for military 
        regimes,  particularly  in  Greece the birthplace and  cradle  of 
        democracy.  But  even in this case,  I have not departed from  my 
        principle about co-operation.  You realize, Mr President, the sad 
        thoughts  which  have been preoccupying and tormenting  me  since 
        ascertaining  that  men of the Greek government  are  incessantly 
        hatching conspiracies against me and, what is worse, are dividing 
        the  Greek  Cypriot people and pushing them  towards  catastrophe 
        through civil strife.  I have more than once so far felt,  and in 
        some cases I have almost touched, a hand invisibly extending from 
        Athens and seeking to liquidate my human existence.  For the sake 
        of National expediency,  however,  I kept silence.  Even the evil 
        spirit  which  possessed the three defrocked Cypriot bishops  who 
        have  caused a major crisis in the Church emanated  from  Athens. 
        However,  I said nothing in this connection.  I am wondering what 
        the object of all this is.  I would have continued to keep silent 
        about the responsibility and role of the Greek government in  the 
        present  drama of Cyprus if I had been the only one to suffer  on 
        the scene of the drama. But covering things up and keeping silent 
        is  not  permissible  when the entire Greek  Cypriot  people  are 
        suffering,  when  Greek  officers of the National Guard,  at  the 
        instigation of Athens,  support EOKA B in its criminal  activity, 
        including   political   murders  and  generally  aiming  at   the 
        dissolution of the state.

           The  Greek government must take great responsibility for  this 
        attempt to abolish the state of Cyprus. The Cyprus state could be 
        dissolved only in the event of Enosis. However, as long as Enosis 
        is   not  feasible  it  is  imperative  that  Cyprus  should   be 
        strengthened  as  a  state.  By its whole  attitude  towards  the 
        National  Guard issue,  the Greek government has been following a 
        policy calculated to abolish the Cyprus state.

           A  few months ago the National Guard General Staff  consisting 
        of  Greek  officers,  submitted  to  the  Cyprus  government  for 
        approval  of  a  list of candidates for  cadet  reserve  officers 
        during their military service.  Fifty-seven of the candidates  on 
        the list submitted were not approved by the Council of Ministers. 
        The  General Staff was informed of this in writing.  Despite this 
        the General Staff,  following instructions from  Athens,  paid no
        attention to the decision of the Council of Ministers  which  has 
        the  absolute  right to appoint National Guard  officers.  Acting 
        arbitrarily,   the  general  Staff  trampled  upon  laws,  showed 
        contempt  for the decision of the Cyprus government and  enrolled 
        the candidates who had not been approved in the Officers Training 
        School.  I  regard  this attitude of the National  Guard  General 
        Staff, which is controlled by the Greek government, as absolutely 
        inadmissable.  The National Guard is an organ of the Cyprus state 
        and  should be controlled by it and not from Athens.  The  theory 
        about a common area of defence between Greece and Cyprus has  its 
        emotional aspect. In reality, however, the position is different. 
        The  National Guard,  with its present composition and  staffing, 
        has  deviated  from its aim and has become a breeding ground  for 
        illegal activities,  a centre of conspiracy against the state and 
        a  source  of recruitment for EOKA B.  It suffices  to  say  that 
        during  the  recently  stepped up terrorist activity of  EOKA  B, 
        National  Guard  vehicles transported arms and  moved  to  safety 
        members  of  the  organization  who were about  to  be  arrested. 
        Complete responsibility for this improper conduct of the National 
        Guard rests with Greek officers,  some of whom are involved  head 
        over ears in the activities of EOKA B. And the National Centre is 
        not  free  from  responsibility in  this  connection.  The  Greek 
        government  could  by a mere nod put an end to  this  regrettable 
        situation.  The  National Centre could order the  termination  of 
        violence  and terrorism by EOKA B because it is from Athens  that 
        the  organisation  derives the means for its maintenance and  its 
        strength,  as confirmed by written evidence and proof.  the Greek 
        government,  however,  had failed to do so. As an illustration of 
        the inadmissible situation I note here in passing that in  Athens 
        slogans  were  also recently written against me and in favour  of 
        EOKA  B on the walls of churches and other  buildings,  including 
        the building of the Cyprus Embassy.  They did not seek to  arrest 
        and punish anybody,  thus tolerating propaganda in favour of EOKA 
        B. 

           I have a lot to say,  Mr President,  but I do not think that I 
        should say any more now.  In conclusion,  I convey that the Greek 
        officered  National  Guard,  the plight of which has  shaken  the 
        Cypriot people's confidence in it,  will be restructured on a new 
        basis. I have reduced military service so that the National Guard 
        ceiling may be reduced and the extent of the evil may be limited. 
        It  may  be observed that the reduction of the  National  Guard's 
        strength  by the shortening of military service,  would render it 
        incapable  of  carrying out its mission in the face  of  national 
        danger.  For reasons which I do not wish to set out here I do not 
        share  this  view.  And  I  would ask  that  the  Greek  officers 
        staffing  the National Guard be recalled.  Their remaining in the 
        National  Guard  and  commanding the force would  be  harmful  to 
        relations between Athens and Nicosia.  I would, however, be happy 
        if you were to send Cyprus about 100 officers as instructors  and 
        military advisers to help in the reorganization and restructuring 
        of  the armed forces of Cyprus.  I hope,  in the  meantime,  that 
        instructions  have  been given to EOKA B to end  its  activities, 
        even  though,  as  long  as this organization is  not  definitely 
        dissolved,  a  new wave of violence and murders cannot  be  ruled 
        out.

           I  am sorry,  Mr President,  that I have found it necessary to 
        say  many unpleasant things in order to give a broad  outline  in 
        open  and frank terms of the long-standing,  deplorable situation 
        in Cyprus. This is however, necessitated by the national interest 
        which  has always guided all my actions.  I do not desire my  co-
        operation  with the Greek government to be  interrupted.  But  it 
        should  be  borne in mind that I am not an appointed  prefect  or 
        locum  tenes  of the Greek government in Cyprus,  but an  elected 
        leader  of a large section of Hellenism and as such I  demand  an 
        appropriate conduct by the National Centre towards me.

           The contents of this letter is not confidential,

                                                      With cordial wishes
                                                      ARCHBISHOP MAKARIOS
                                                                President

        (Based on translation published by the Sunday Times, 21 July 1974)

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:03:51 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Continuation on CYPRUS, Palikaria Terrorists and Makarios!
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:03:51 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzMnsp.IqK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>The rights of the Turkish Cypriot people were not barbarically grasped
>by anyone, they were irresponsibly abandoned by them, under the 
>influence of Denktash.

The present administration of the Turkish sector on the
island is run by men who were democratically elected. To
suggest that Rauf Denktash and his co-workers are anything
but honorable men doing a very hard job is McCarthyism
in a different form.

They are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a
repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the Greeks'
EOKA. If such assurances are not perfectly implemented,
there is every reason to expect that the local Greeks
will be misguided enough to perpetrate their past mistakes.

Sank in?

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:05:22 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Counting on "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" terrorists and revisionists?
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:05:22 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzMn0J.IK6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Ever thought of moving to Hollywood?  With such fantasy (e.g., some
> of the cars where still running) you could make considerably more profit.

"Otamtam". You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists and revisionists
to prove something for you? No wonder you are in such a mess.

You must be the only fool left on "palik-land". What a fool...

<1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)

Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:

>From: dbd@urartu.SDPA.org (David Davidian)
>Message-ID: <1154@urartu.SDPA.org>

>In article <1991Jan4.145955.4478@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ahmet@eecg.toronto.
>edu (Ahmet Parlakbilek) asked a simple question:

>[AP] I am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu,coras or any other
>[AP] Turk was proven to lie.I can show tens of lies and fabrications of
>[AP] Davidian, like changing quote , even changing name of a book, Anna.

>The obvious ridiculous "Armenians murdered 3 million Moslems" is the most
>outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all. You are obviously new on this 
>net, so read the following sample -- not one, but three proven lies in one
>day!

>			- - - start yalanci.txt - - -

[some parts are deleted]

>In article <1990Aug5.142159.5773@cbnewsd.att.com> the usenet scribe for the 
>Turkish Historical Society, hbm@cbnewsd.att.com (hasan.b.mutlu), continues to
>revise the history of the Armenian people. Let's witness the operational
>definition of a revisionist yalanci (or liar, in Turkish):

>[Yalanci] According to Leo:[1]
>[Yalanci]
>[Yalanci] "The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks
>[Yalanci] and on the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding
>[Yalanci] their own affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed,
>[Yalanci] the war was actually being waged between the Committee of 
>[Yalanci] Dashnaktsutiun and the Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and 
>[Yalanci] savage war in defense of party political interests. The Dashnaks 
>[Yalanci] incited revolts which relied on Russian bayonets for their success."
>[Yalanci] 
>[Yalanci] [1] L. Kuper, "Genocide: Its Political Use in the Twentieth Century,"
>[Yalanci]     New York 1981, p. 157.

>This text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries. On
>page 157 we find a discussion of related atrocities (which is title of the
>chapter). The topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the Sub-
>Commission on Prevention of Discrimination of Minorities of the Commission on
>Human Rights of the United Nations with respect to the massacres in Cambodia.
>There is no mention of Turks nor Armenians as claimed above.

				- - -

>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

>The depth of foolishness the Turkish Historical Society engages in, while
>covering up the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, is only surpassed by the 
>ridiculous "historical" material publicly displayed!

>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.SDPA.org>  | The life of a people is a sea, and  

Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found 
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:

> According to Leo:[1]

>"The situation is clear. On one side, we have peace-loving Turks and on
> the other side, peace-loving Armenians, both sides minding their own 
> affairs. Then all was submerged in blood and fire. Indeed, the war was
> actually being waged between the Committee of Dashnaktsutiun and the
> Society of Ittihad and Terakki - a cruel and savage war in defense of party
> political interests. The Dashnaks incited revolts which relied on Russian
> bayonets for their success." 

>[1] B. A. Leo. "The Ideology of the Armenian Revolution in Turkey," vol II,
     ======================================================================
>    p. 157.
    ======

QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !

DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.

Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...

You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.

And for the following line:
>Vay sarsak, vay yobaz, vay yalanci! Vay Turk milletinin yuz karasi Mutlu vay!

I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.

Ahmet PARLAKBILEK

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:06:34 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: "Palik" tango.
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:06:34 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzMMKn.IFK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>My cursing in the net was my reaction to a few repeated postings in 
>Turkish. As I have told you in the past I do not curse people for no
>reason. 

When you have finished cursing I'd suggest you answer the points 
scholars raised below.

 <<These Crusaders left in their wake new 'blood libel' and 'desecration
 of host' passions which in turn led to later attacks on the surviving
 Jewish communities wherever there was even the slightest rumor which
 provided a pretext and rallying cry. The spread of the Black Death
 throughout Western Europe, particularly between 1348 and 1350, provided
 a new pretext to blame Jews for catastrophe, in this case with the story
 that they poisoned water supplies to cause the plague and wipe out
 Christianity, with the hope that by persecuting them its spread would be
 checked [8]. Many Jews who survived were ultimately allowed to resettle
 in their old homes, but invariably in worse terms than before [9]. The
 Black Death and the resulting pogroms not only caused deaths and
 destruction of homes and shops of thousands of Jews, thus, but also
 intensified the popular Christian stereotypes of the Jews, many of which
 have remained the basis for anti-semitism in modern times.

 There often were massacres, as for example in Frankfurt in 1241, Munich
 in 1285-6 [10] and Amleder in 1336 [11]. Expulsions had been carried out
 in earlier centuries, but they always had been limited both in time and
 area. But now as royal authority extended more widely in each kingdom,
 so also did the expulsions become more permanent and extensive. Now there
 were sudden and violent deportations, sometimes for very long periods of
 time. They began in England, strangely enough the last country of Western
 Christandom to admit Jews, starting with the decree of Edward I issued
 on 18 July 1290, which was enforced for almost four centuries, until
 1650 [12]. In France, Louis IX (1226-1270) enforced the decrees of the
 Fourth Lateran Council with great severity, decreeing the expulsion of all
 Jews from his kingdom as he left for the first Crusade in 1249. Philip the
 Fair (1285-1314) ordered all French Jews to be arrested (July 1306),
 following this up with a decree condemning them to expulsion and
 confiscation of their property, though this later was revoked by his
 successor. Charles IV expelled the Jews again in 1322, and it was only
 due to a financial crisis in 1359 that they were admitted again. In 1380
 and 1382 there were riots against the Jews in Paris, and starting in 1394
 they were expelled again, this time not to return for centuries, in some
 areas not until the start of the French Revolution four centuries later[13].
 Jews were excluded from Russia from the fifteenth century until 1772,
 when masses of Jews were included as a result of the Russian annexation
 of Poland and Lithuania. They were banned from Hungary after 1376 [14],
 from Naples in 1510-1511, and from almost anywhere in Germany in the
 fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, though in some cases because of its
 lack of unity these deportations were temporary and local at best, with
 Jews simply going from one locality to another, and then ultimately
 returning to their original homes as time passed and the deportation
 decrees were annulled or forgotten by political and religious leaders
 who saw their own incomes falling in the absence of their Jewish advisors.

 Thing were no better in Byzantium. Byzantine Jews were nominally free to
 follow their own faith, but just as the Romans had reduced Jews to no more
 than subject status, so also Byzantines excluded Jews from rights of full
 citizenship. The motives of Romans were mainly political; but Byzantines
 were moved also by religious reasons as well. From their absolute
 conviction, taught by the Greek Orthodox Church, that the Jews were
 condemned by God for rejecting his Word and for the Unforgivable Crime
 of killing Jesus Christ, it was logical to conclude that the Jews ought to
 be punished by God's new chosen people, the Christians, by being subjected
 to various restrictions.>>

[8] 'France', EJ VII, 16. 'Germany', EJ VI, 468.
[9] J. Trachtenberg, The Devil and the Jews (1961), 97-108. P. Ziegler,
    Black Death (1969). 'Black Death', EJ IV, 1063-1068.
[10] 'Germany', EJ VI, 467. The Jewish Encyclopedia: New Edition III
     (New York, 1925), 266. Zunz, Synagogale Poesie des Mittelalters, 33.
     Mom.Germ. XI. 210, 872, XVII, 415. A. M. Hebermann, ed., Sefer
     Gezerot Ashkenaz ve-Zarefat (1946), 199. 'Blood-libel', EJ (Jerusalem,
     1972) IV, 1122. Stobbe, Die Juden in Deutschland, 282.
[11] 'Germany', EJ VI, 468.
[12] 'England', EJ VI, 751-752.
[13] S.A. Rozanes, History of the Jews in Turkey (in Hebrew) (2nd edition,
     Sofia, 1930-38), 11, 128; Barisa Krekic, Dubrovnik in the Fourteenth
     and Fifteenth Centuries (Norman, Oklahoma, 1972), 30. 'France',
     EJ VII, 17.
[14] EJ [Encyclopaedia Judaica] VI, 469.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:08:16 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: U.S. archives on the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:08:16 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <9212211936.AA01273@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>PS: Sorry for the sarcastic tone but if I had replied to your message
>seriously it would have been even worse. I apologise for writing such

It shows that I treat "sipa of delco" as imaginary. In any event,
between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at the 
hands of the Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing 
of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia. 
They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman 
Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide 
as acting with a 'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial 
part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' History shows that 
the Armenian dictatorship intended to eradicate the Muslim population. 
2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the Armenians. 
International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including Admiral 
Bristol - denounced the Armenian dictatorship's policy as a massacre of 
the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of the Armenian 
dictatorship at the time personally involved in the extermination of the 
Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor those who died 
during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in Armenian dictatorship
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the Dashnaks and Hunchaks.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:09:40 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Subject: James Deibele's struggle with scholarly sources and historical facts.
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:09:40 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzMu9K.1qB@techbook.com> jamesd@techbook.com (James Deibele) writes:

>To bring this posting back to the matter at hand, I think that Serdar
>Argic has shown his disdain for netiquette.  As tempting as it to

Utter bathos. Do you approve of it when the historical revisionists,
genocide apologists and Nazi Armenians of "ASALA/SDPA/ARF" do it, but 
not when the victims of the Turkish/Azeri genocide do it? If you don't 
want to find out, I suggest you address the issues and not your bigotry. 
A typical pseudo-scholar. Now, any comment?

Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most 
respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional 
Republic in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.

During World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
  against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the 
  murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian 
  neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish 
  and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see 
  the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
  Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise 
  to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would 
  help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
  the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
  I don't need your bias."  

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:11:20 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Karl Denninger (was Re: Meanwhile, back at news.admin.policy)
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:11:20 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <BzMK1z.J21@portal.hq.videocart.com> kdenning@portal.hq.videocart.com (Karl Denninger) writes:

>Perhaps because he owns the machine he is posting from, and he has a link
>with a common-carrier style site which takes his money and forwards his
>postings.
>That might having something to do with it.

More ridicule; I take it? Still not addressing the original points made.
It was you and your cohorts that spiralled off into this long set of
accusations. It does have the effect on others, that it shows your
unwillingness or incapacity to do other than nitpick. Remember, the
issue at hand is the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people by the
Armenian government. Now anything to add?

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The 
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse. 
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and 
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for 
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an 
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black 
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As 
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face 
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what 
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, 
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so 
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his  
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From rphroy!caen!uunet!anatolia.mn.org!zuma!sera Mon Dec 23 01:12:58 1992 
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Subject: So if you don't like the message, shoot the messenger?
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:12:58 GMT
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish

In article <1992Dec21.200548.75099@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

>The above message contains some, hmm, not very parliamentary expressions,
>so, if a coarse speech of a warrior may offend you, do not read below the
>line. 

Well, I already ignored your nonsense. Still, that blind spot is
typical of genocide apologists, historical revisionists and those
who try to cover up and apologize for their crimes. By the way,
I expect better from you. No, I take that back, I don't. As early 
as 1934, K. S. Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the 
Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) 

        'leans toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

From urartu.sdpa.org!dbd Sun Nov  8 16:21:43 1992 
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Faruk the Bosnian [Faruk Bosnaci]
Summary: a casual observer
Date: 23 Dec 92 03:24:42 GMT
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies

In article <1992Dec22.221744.13833@bmerh85.bnr.ca> faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk
od Bosne) wrote:

[F] First of all I am not discriminating people by religion or nationality. 
[F] Second I didn't wish "Merry Christmas" to anybody. What you see in a 
[F] subject header is Re to someone else. So my advise to you is to read the 
[F] article before jumping to conclusion.

As I re-read the subject of your posting, although a follow-up...

Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, Argic

...I just can't get any other meaning out of it! If you didn't want people, not
only myself but others, to have reached another conclusion, you should have
modified the Subject: line!

[F] A.

[DD] "However, upon the breaking out of the World War the massacres recommenced
[DD] with such violence that, of the two and a half million Armenians that 
[DD] lived in Turkey before 1914, I believe not even one half million remain, 
[DD] including the three to four hundred thousand who dwelt in Constantinople 
[DD] and Smyrna, and who, by means of I know not what miracle, escaped the 
[DD] deportation and lived." [1]
[DD]
[DD]         -- Inspector General of the Turkish Forces in Armenia, Nogalas Bey
[DD]
[DD]				 - - - reference - - -
[DD]
[DD] [1] _Four Years Beneath the Crescent_ Rafael De Nogalas, Inspector General
[DD] of Turkish Forces in Armenia and Military Governor of Egyptian Sinai 
[DD] During the War, Translated from the Spanish by Muna Lee, Charles 
[DD] Scribner's Sons, New York, London, 1926, page 17

[F] B.

[DD] David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org>|"The Regular Army of the Ottomans was 
[DD] SDPA Center for Regional Studies    | entirely innocent of the Armenian 
[DD] P.O. Box 382761                     | massacres." - Inspector General of 
[DD] Cambridge, MA 02238                 | the Turkish forces in Armenia, WWI 

[F] Aren't your own two quotes A. and B. conflicting? 

No, not at all, they are complimentary! The first quote states that as soon as
World War One began the Turks embarked on an immediate process of exterminating
the Armenians. The second quote simply re-states there were massacres and 
deportations of Armenians -- but since De Nogales was a German-paid mercenary
in the service of the Turko-German allience during WWI, he says it was not his
guys who were guilty. The point is that the Turks engaged in genocide against
the Armenians, as stated by the Inspector-General of Turkish forces himself! 

[F] Serdar most of the time quotes relevant sources without introducing his
[F] personality. 

Not true. His quotes are either incomplete, taken from Turkish revisionist
sources, or are strip-quotes spanning several paragraphs or even pages, giving
a totally different meaning than was intended by the author. The quotes center
on the Caucasus circa 1919 & 1920, whereas the genocide of Turkish Armenians
commenced 4 to 5 years earlier and some 500 miles to the east! The attempt
is to fool the casual observer, like you! 

For example:

From dbd Sun Nov  8 18:44:02 EST 1992
Article: 4784 of soc.culture.turkish
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history