From: Rannou@info.polymtl.ca (Patrick Rannou)
Subject: Re: Time mechanics
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Canada
	<Bu2JtK.HyK@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 22:53:21 GMT

In article <Bu2JtK.HyK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:


   In article <1992Sep4.093659.58625@cc.usu.edu> slp66@cc.usu.edu writes:
   >got it made.  Now, which system is move realistic?  AD&D.  In real life you can
		  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!


Well, you can laugh at him all you want, but he;s got HIS opinions, and
he's also giving some tangibles, if not facts, to support his opinions. All
your doing is destructive criticism, without ANY fact./tangibles.

Mysefl, I quite agree with him. I myself use 10 seconds rounds, but the
number of ACTIONS/WHAT YOU CAN DO per round stay EXACTLY the same as if I
used 60 seconds rounds. Except the distance runned, which is half or
something near that.

Now, I don't know about you, but GURPS combat system, IMHO, sucks. Sure,
it's possible to do everything in this time frame like they describe it,
BUT:


1) It assumes the PCs/NPCs are always "omniscient", never lose time doing
useless things like looking what's happening, and are always in the
standard best conditions (or near best).

2) Even then, thats completely BESIDE the point. The point here is not if
the round last a minute or a second, it's WHAT YOU CAN DO IN ONE ROUND.
This greatly influences what you *WILL* do in that round. Extreme example:
GM: you can move 1 millimeter, or attack 10 times, in a round (be it 1
nano-second or one hour, I don't care!).
Player: Gee, I think I'll throw that sword in the garbage and buy a bow and
        PLENTY  of arrows.

OK, that's an EXTREME example, but it shows my point. And in the same way,
I think that IMHO GURPS allow for a lot less movements in combat than in
AD&D. Movement becomes so much "action costly" that moving becomes a
disadvantage. IMHO, *THAT'S* unrealistic.

WHEN you've got a realistic "actions in a round" system, THEN you try to
find a timescale which is appropriate (actually, both are more
intyerconnected than that, but still it's two different things). THAT'S
*another* kind of "unrealistic" thing which may or may not be appliable.
With GURPS, with one seconds rounds, it's stretching it but still can be
called, IMHO, realistic (I wonder if wargamers do love this RPG system much
more than AD&D). AD&D, or course, on that same point, is a LOT less
realistic, because it leaves plenty of things to the care of the GM, and
you lose a lot less of the detail. Personnally, I found out that one minute
rounds is really too far fetched on that last point, and one second rounds
completely breaks a thing I find essential: the storytelling.

This is of course valid only for me. Some guys love to play car wars. I
have seen a bunch of them play for *6* hours to do only *6* rounds of
combat. Like, you play 6 hours to play 6 seconds. THAT'S unrealistic. You
completely lose the sense of speed, of motion, the feel of battle, when
things become too much static. IMHO, GURPS is not too static, but is still
too much static for ME, and that's principally due because of these one
second rounds.


I want battles that take the same time to PLAY than to ROLEPLAY. I.E.
Realtime = Gametime, or the best possible compromise. Using one minute
rounds, this is possible. It isn't using 10 seconds rounds, but it's not
the end of the world, the feeling is still there. It's not possible at all
with one second rounds. 

And *DON'T* tell me things like "with an experienced group, combat goes
fast and lat only a few rounds, and it flows fast.

The SAME thing can be said for an experienced group in AD&D, so it's not a
valid point. It can even be said that it's a point against GURPS, not for
it. If vyou say that most combats in GURPS last less than 10 rounds, then
you're saying that most fights, gunfights, whatever, in GURPs last less
than ten seconds.

If roleplaying fights or gunfights is to reproduce any kind of "combat
feeling" at all, it should then create fights which last same as in the
movies. Maybe you'll say movies are unrealistic, I don't care. I'm noot a
perfect historical simulator, we play to have fun, and the feeling of a
fight we get from seeing a movie is much better than the feeling of fight
we get from seeing a REAL fight/gunfight.

And I've NEVER seen any fiight/gunfight, real or from a moview, which
lasted less than 10 seconds. Except when the opponent is down in one shot.

And that's why I use 10 seconds rounds. For DRAMA.

Using 1 seconds rounds is much like seing a videoclip running at 120 images
per second. The action gets TOO dense. PCs/NPCs are near godhood to be able
to keep their senses in all the chaos going around them every other second.

Heck, even in Robotech the carnage doesn't attain these speeds. And
Robotech show a VERY "deadly in a fast way" of fighting.

So, IMHO, GURPS may be a great game, but for that particualr aspect of the
gamer, namely the one second round, well I think it sucks.

There. I've said it. Flame at will if you're too young to provide good
argumentation.

And sorry for the typing mistakes.

Pat.



--
/---------------------------\
| Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
| Rannou@info.polymtl.ca    |
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