HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy (was drivel about Deportations)
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:56:37 GMT

In article <17810@umd5.umd.edu> spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>> 
>> ~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
>> ~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe

and Israel must have cheered this move by Assad, I do not care if those 
governments claim to be against Israel, but in reality they are the first
line of defence for Israel...

>> ~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite

which if they overthrew Assad would have caused Israel major problems..

>> ~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
>> ~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).

Arab dictators do not need to cator to International opinion, they will be
supported anyway. (see Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq in the 80's, Algeria).. The reason
is of course what I said above.

>> 
>Oh, then there's that other little difference : the Palestinians seem to  
>want to dismantle Israel, whilst the various factions in Ireland merely  
>want the British to go back to their own country, but I suppose that's a  

That is exactly what the Palestinians want the Jewish settlers to do:
go back to their own country. The Irish have Ireland and  the IRA is an
unpopular movement that is fighting for tiny northern Ireland while the 
Palestinians have nothing.
>digression as well..................
>
>
>cheers.
>
>jeff
From: drori@gumby.Altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?
Date: 8 Jan 93 01:56:34 GMT
Reply-To: drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

In article <1993Jan6.070302.156@vms.huji.ac.il# backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
#In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com#, gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
## dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
##
##
###As to the major characteristic of Nazi terror, mass murder of
###civilians with poison gas, it was practiced in the mideast only
###by Arabs against other Arabs (Iraq and Egypt).
##
## One small quibble, Danny: the Iraqis were using poison gas on Kurds, and
## it is my understanding (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) that Kurds are
## not Arabs.  This is not, obviously, intended to excuse such an outrage
## but I find the frequent accusation that Arabs perform atrocities on
## other Arabs to have unfortunate overtones of ethnocentricity.
##
## For my own interest, I'd like to know what you mean about the reference
## to Egypt.  Iraqi use of gas is pretty well established and familiar, due
## to news reports, but I hadn't heard anything about the Egyptians.
#
#Jeff,
#
#I *believe* that the Egyptians used poison gas (mustard gas ??) against Yemen
#in either the late 1950's or early 1960's in one of the (many) wars fought
#between Arabs in the mideast.
#
#Josh
#backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
#

Actually it happened during 1965-1967 just before the 1967 war with 
Israel. Nasser was "helping" one of the sides in a civil war in Yemen.

#
#
#
##
## --Jeff Frane
##
## --
## gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400)
##
##
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: costs of schnorring
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:50:54 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

Gee, Chris, you can plug the names of any nations you want into
this quote and it still doesn't make it a Nazi passage:

 CM> Every time that an emotional supporter of Iran raises his or
 CM> her voice against an Israeli citizen in this fashion, they
 CM> are hastening the day when Israel will wash its hands of
 CM> Iran altogether. With every foul word that comes from the
 CM> mouth of people like yourself, the will to disentangle
 CM> Israel from Iranian affairs is being steeled. You and your
 CM> comrades may be deriving an immediate emotional
 CM> gratification from your verbal violence, but when the bill
 CM> comes due for your lapse in judgement--and I guarantee you
 CM> that day is not far off--you may be in for a rude shock.

Any nation in the world has a right to disentangle itself from
the affairs of any other nation for whatever reasons it wants.
When the values and interests of one nation begin to deviate too
far from the values and interests of another nation, the
relationship will probably end in a divorce, quite possibly an
ugly divorce if one party is slow to recognize that the
relationship in its essential life is over, kaput.

I imagine if Israel suddenly lost the $3 to $4 billion in U.S.
handouts, it would come as quite a shock indeed. I suspect if
AIPAC suddenly became the target of same kind of bullying
high-handed tactics it has been dishing out for so many years,
that too would come as a rude awakening.

I'm glad I used the term "foul words." I just saw another
emotional Israeli supporter here call an American a "cheap
bastard" for objecting to the astronomical levels of U.S. aid to
Israel. That is precisely the kind of language that is going to
STEEL the will of Americans to disentangle our affairs from those
of Israel. That kind of language coming from a schnorrer can
really piss off the target of the schnorring, particularly when
we have so many American citizens who are in need of aid.

You are far too emotionally involved with Israel to appreciate
what effects the behavior of Israel and the Israeli lobby are
having on mainstream American opinion and non-Jewish opinion
elites. People like yourself are much too filled up with the
passion to tell us what we're supposed to think to listen
carefully to what we are really thinking. That kind of behavior
is laying the groundwork for a shock.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Call it a hunch, call it a premonition.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24695 soc.culture.greek:12050 soc.culture.turkish:13798 soc.rights.human:4724
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Leaving
Organization: Locus Computing Corp, Los Angeles
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 05:33:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.225356.5665@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>Though John Elghani and I have disputed many points over the net, and
>often disagreed bitterly, all but literally being at each others'
>threats, I wish him all the best of luck.  Congratulations on your
>marriage, John, and good luck on your return home to Lebanon.

Thanks Eric.  However, I'll be hanging around for a few more weeks.
I managed to get network access for a little longer.

Hopefully our dispute will end when you realize that Palestine
belongs to the Palestinians, not the Germans and the Yemense.  :)

No Hard feelings :)

jle

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25112 soc.culture.arabic:6444 soc.culture.lebanon:5533
From: marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:15:02 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:

(about the israeli policeman executed by Hamas ) ...

# According to the news reports I heard, this policeman was kidnapped
# just outside of his home, so I presume he was off-duty, i.e., a
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# civilian at the time. Or does joining the police force immediately
# remove all of one's civil rights?

I remember that Israel procecuted an alledged Nazi criminal though he
was "off-duty" ... Are you saying that Israel should have forgoten about
all the attrocities that he had done just because he was "off-duty" at
the time of the arrest (kidnap).

--Marwan
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 6 Jan 93 10:18:33 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan5.165857.3113@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
~
~In article <Jan.4.18.28.39.1993.23427@bach.rutgers.edu>, marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
~>astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
~>
~>>The death of a child is always a tragic event. It's truly shameful
~>
~>So ask the Israeli blood thirsty government to stop using machine guns
~>against 9 year old civilians.
~
~Or maybe ask the arabs to stop sending small children to the streets to throw
~stones.
~

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your supposition is correct, it
is strange that Israeli response to child abuse is to shoot the victims,
rather than punish the abusers.





-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Summary: priority over international law
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:35:12 GMT

In article <1583@blue.cis.pitt.edu> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:

# The action of the Israeli government, removing the Hamas activists, is 
# legal.  It conforms with Israeli law and was upheld by the High Court.  It 
# does not violate international law, specifically the Geneva Convention,
# since Israel's possession of the West Bank and Gaza is the result of
# a war of self-defense, and no other state has a stronger claim to sovereignty
# than does Israel.  

	[ rest deleted - dlm ]

	One more point I would like to make, one I have made throughout
this debate and despite the harrasment by Wanyne and the pooh poohing
by Brendan, is that even if the deportations are a violation of
International law, the first responsibility of any state, just as with
any individual, is self preservation.

	So even if the act was a violation of international law (am I am
not condeding that it was), Israel cannot be blamed for violating
international law if the deportations were necessary for her national
security.

	And before anyone jumps on me, I am not claiming that it was
necessary for Israel's self defense just because Israel said it was.
However, based on the "facts on the ground", I believe even more
deportations orders of magnitude greater are needed for Israel's self
defense.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 01:13:13 GMT

In article <1583@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
[....]
> 
>     I don't think that either legality nor morality motivate those who have
>  condemned Israel for it's treatment of admitted members of a criminal 
>  conspiracy.  No one denies the association of these people with Hamas.
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  This is just another example of the Security Council trying to bully 
>  Israel in order to gain favor with its Oil supply.
> 
>     Richard Thorne  rdt@med.pitt.edu

Some of the deportees have denied association with HAMAS. 

That may not be good enough for you. Its good enough for me. 

Bring on the court of law!

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: In 1 day, it will come,  THE DEATH OF MUTLU/ARGIC
Date: 7 Jan 1993 09:06:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


--------------------------------NEWSFLASH-----------------------

On Wednesday, January 7, Hassan Mutlu a.k.a Serdar Argic was convicted
of numerous chargesincluding character assasination, and bad breath.

Sentencing will be tomorrow, punishment could range from 2 years in jail
to death by slow torture (as was requested by the Turkish Embassy.  

Apparently, should execution occur, there have been thousands of requests
to be the killer.  More News as it occur.

In only one measly day, the death of Mutlu/Argic, can ya believe it!
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Summary: Yes they were
Date: 6 Jan 93 01:34:26 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1993Jan3.074702.10580@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>In article <Jan.3.00.21.21.1993.7573@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

>>(A) KANAANEETS: The first documented existence in Palestine was for the
>>    Kanaanee bedouins this is before the profit Moses crossed the Sinai
>              ^^^^^^^                    (prophet)
>The Cananites were not bedouins but mostly settled people. They inhabited
>the area when Abraham (Ibrahim) moved from mesopotamia.

The Cananites were originally a nomadic people who originated in South
Arabia. The Amorites were one of the reoccurent explosions of nomadic
peoples out of Arabia into the settled lands of Syria and Iraq. The
Cananites were part of this Amorite group. They did settle down but
they were originally bedouin-ish.

>>(C) ASSERIANS: The asserians (From Iraq) came to Palestine and destroyed
>>    the Hebrew state there.

That should be 'Assyrian' and they were from Mosul in the North of Iraq

>The romans had ruled in palestine for quite a while. They DID destroy the
>temple in 79 AD and scattered the jewish population. That did not leave
>palestine empty, not all of its population was jewish.

The Romans hadn't ruled Palestine for quite a while. They took over the
State shortly before or after Jesus was born (depending on which of Lukes
dates you care to use). Previous to that it had been a client State under
Herod the Great and his family.

>One historical note: tribes in what is now Russia/Ukraine converted to Judiasm
>and are the ancestors of most euorpean jewry.

Really?


Joseph Askew


-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 4 Jan 93 09:39:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1i7i7uINNbei@life.ai.mit.edu>, 
gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) writes:

>
>I did not realize that the Bible was intended by its authors as a
>real-estate guide.  It seems to me, however, that the Bible says
>that that land belongs to the children of Abraham.  That includes,
>if you will note, the same Palestinians that are being expelled
>from their homes.

	I hope you don't consider yourself a Bible scholar. The Bible
	explicitly qualifies the "children of Abraham" as those who are
	descendant from Isaac and Jacob. I can bring you the sources if
	you like but I'm sure that really isn't relevant to you, just as
	the claims of the Koran are not relevant to me.

>However, I doubt that any rational person would expect Muslims to
>accept the validity of the Bible's claims as to what belongs to
>who.

	I agree. I do not expect you to accept the Bible. I was mearly
	commenting on the erroneous claims made by Gharaybeh as to what
	the JEWISH (or ZIONIST) beliefs are. I don't think it is
	reasonable that he should tell me what I believe.

>>   What gives the Israeli Army the right and OBLIGATION to "hunt down"
>>   stone-throwers is the right of the Israeli people to live in security.
>>   I certainly would not like to live in a country where even 10-year
>>   olds are given the freedom to stone and fire-bomb cars at will - would
>>   you?????
>
>The Jewish settlers certainly seem to want to live in such a country.

	I don't know whether to take this seriously or not. I'll assume
	you are serious so let me explain again. The Jewish settlers do
	NOT want to live in a country where anyone is given the
	freedom to stone and fire-bomb cars at will. That's why they live
	in Israel where the police and army do all they can to stop these 
	culprits. If your head got smashed with a rock, would you feel
        better if you knew that a 10-year old threw it?

-Itzhak
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 09:22:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.153008.8769@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
># >	William Safire did not give his interpretation.  He was reporting
># >on the OFFICIAL interpretations of the Geneva Conventions as well as
>#         ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
># >its evolution.
>
># Made by whom?
>
>	The international legal bodies.  I probably should not have
                                ^^^^^^
>capitalized "Official" since that is indeed part of the name of the
>publication.

What bodies? The UN declared it illegal. I'm not aware of any other
international bodies.

># >	The US and the world are making POLITICAL, NOT LEGAL, statements.
># >When Bush Baker & Associates wanted the State department to issue a
># >legal opinion with your interpretation, they had to get some third
># >rate flunky to do it.  None of their top lawyers would because they
># >knew it was bogus.
> 
># WOW! you must be conected! You know all the legal experts in the State Dept.
># and their official rating as well. Care to produce any refrences to any of
># this crap.
>
>	William Safire.  And he is well connected.

You are just repeating what Safire said. He has not cited any names. He highly
biased towards Israel and hardly considered an impartial judge. He's using
cheap tricks such as claiming a  "third rate flunky" without any proof.

>	Your response is bogus and even if it were not,it still does not
>answer the question.  Why did the Arab war against the Jews start long
>before there was an Israel?

It's funny how you pass judgement an my statement without explaining why or
justifying your judgement! The arabs' war against the jews was an attempt to
prevent the establishment of Israel. The fact that the jews wanted to
establish a "jewish state" on part of the country regardless of what the
native population wanted was not beknown to the world. The issue is not A
palestinian homeland or state. It is whether they can be allowed to exist as
equal beings with full human and civil rights in the land of their birth.
There are 3 alternatives:
1) give the non-jews the same rights as the jews.
2) transfer the non-jews to where they came from :-)
3) the status quo. hold 2 million under military occupation and 2 million in
refugee camps.

Which would you prefer.

># Why don't you annex the "liberated" areas and
># give the inhabitants the vote? 
>
>	First of all, there is no need to annex what is already yours.
>Second of all, inhabitants there do vote.  Third of all, if the Arabs
>there were allowed to vote, in the not so distant future they would
>outvote the state of Israel.

Ya, the jewish settlers can vote. So much for democracy then.

>makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu

Zeyd

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: israel as asset
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:57:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1993Jan9.1777.22304@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
...
>As Desert Storm proved, Saudi Arabia is a much more valuable
>strategic asset for the U.S. in the Mideast than Israel. By your
>logic, then, the U.S. should be providing MORE than $1,000 per
>annum per Saudi in aid. But we don't, do we. Saudi Arabia pays
>its own way.
...

    Saudi Arabia isn't an asset, but a major LIABILITY for the U.S.

    Here's a country with population of ~15,000,000 armed to the 
    teeth with most sofisticated Western-made gadgetry, yet unable
    and/or unwilling to defend itself against war-weary Iraq (pop. 
    ~17,000,000) armed with mostly outdated Soviet-made weapons.
                                                
    Saudi Arabia's way is paid with the lives of American serviceman and 
    -women who died during the Persian Gulf war.  Had it not been for the 
    Israelis blowing up the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1982, that price 
    would have been much, much higher.











-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:33:38 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <SHAIG.93Jan9012801@vivaldi.think.com> shaig@vivaldi.think.com (Shai Guday) writes:

>Until you produce some source or reference that butresses your claim,
>more than a foreign language linguist, I see no point in continuing this.


From the Random House College Dictionary:

an-ti (an/ti, an/te) n., pl. -tis. Informal. a person opposed to a
particular policy, action, etc.

Sem-ite (sem'it or esp. Brit., semit) 1. A member of any of various
ancient and modern peoples originating in SW Asia, among whom are
the Hebrews and Arabs. 2. A Jew. 3. a member of any of the peoples
supposedly descended from Shem.

The meaning derived for "anti-Semite" by using the above does not
conflict with the meaning that you posted.  In fact the meaning you
posted is just a subset of derived meaning.  All that you have been
abe to show is that Jews have been given special treatment by the
people who claim to be the guardians of the English language.  This
is neither surprising nor interesting.

Basalat Ali Raja.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 7 Jan 1993 07:40:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) says:

>In article <237@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>~In article bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>~A Jew killing a Jew, who cares? An Arab killing an Arab, who cares?
>~But a Jew killing an Arab, g-d forbid. I never understood this logic, usually
>~used in the UN or the media.
>~
>
>In fact the killing of Jews by Arabs gets a lot of media coverage, whereas
>the killing of Arabs by Jews gets rather little - maybe because it has
>become such a commonplace occurrence.

NOT!

I've yet to see a news camera react in horror as Arabs horribly beat and 
kill a Jew.  But the intifada saw hordes upon hordes of journalists just
waiting for a picture of some Policemen blowing away some rock-throwing 10
year old.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw