HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New Jersy Gun Laws
Date: 20 Dec 92 01:25:24 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

grey@futon.SFSU.EDU (Herbert Leong) writes:

#I have the same problem:
#I was told when I bought me TimberWolf (.357 mag) that I should state  
#"I am purchasing this ammo for a carbine that shoots xxx caliber  
#cartrige, I will  not be used in any type of handgun"  have the clerk  
#write it on the sales slip, etc.  It boils down to will the shop  
#accept it or not.

	I got a bit annoyed at having to fill out that form when I 
purchased .30-30 ammunition at a Kmart last summer, and the resulting
post and festivities on t.p.g. has lead me to believe this requirement
was removed in the Gun Owners Protection Act of (I think) 1986.  Some
shops still do it, but I don't think it's necessary.  I bought .45ACP
just a few weeks ago, not at Kmart, and filled out nothing.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:15 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

#always get out of the car and walk back towards the cruiser.  First, I
#< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >

 This is a no-no in most parts these days. I used to do the same thing, and
 most cops seemed appreciative. However, now in an increasingly violent
 world most police prefer that you stay IN the car. The last time I started
 to get out (while being ticket for speeding) the officer got on the PA and
 ordered me back into the vehicle. This is the current reccomended police
 procedure.
From: hacker@coos.dartmouth.edu (Fred L. Hacker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ranges
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:53:43 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

Riley's gun shop in Hooksett NH has a very nice 75 ft indoor range.
They have shooter controlled lighting and target controllers.  The
charge for the general public is $8/hr.  They have a number of 
pistols including Berettas, SIGs & H&Ks which they rent out for
$5/gun.  They also sell new and used guns, ammo, targets, etc.
Overall it's a very pleasant and comfortable place to shoot.

Fred
From: eric@ms.uky.edu (Eric H. Herrin II)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: DCM M1s and competition
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:46:38 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

I have a couple questions about the DCM and the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
I'm mostly a pistol shooter, so I'm not familiar with rifle matches; bear
with me if I ask stupid beginner questions (BTW, I've shot rifles all my life,
just never in competition).

My understanding is that you enter a few competitions, score so many points
and then you qualify for a DCM M1 garand.  You then fill out some paperwork,
take some fingerprints and send them your money.  Rifle arrives in the mail
about a year or so later.  Correct?

Now the questions:

1. What kinds of matches do you have to shoot?  I assume high power rifle,
   but do they have to be 'sanctioned' by the DCM (or maybe just the club
   sponsoring the match must be DCM affiliated)?  How many points do you
   need to qualify for the DCM M1?  How are they tabulated?

2. What type of rifle do I need?  I assume a hunting rifle just won't do.
   Seems like the rapid-fire would kill you pretty quickly.
   I've seen a couple M1 Garands and M1As in the shops for pretty reasonable
   prices.  Is this what I want?  If so, what kind of accurizing do I need to
   do (most I've seen are pretty used and probably need new barrels)?  
   Match barrels allowed?   Regulations on what kinds of parts you can put on
   the rifle?

3. How much does one usually spend on his/her competition rifle (ball-park)?


Any pointers to info or experiences, etc would be highly appreciated.





  


-- 
--
|  	Eric H. Herrin II - {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!eric, eric@ms.uky.edu	     |
|			  University of Kentucky			     |
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Metal Working
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:07:43 GMT

It would be most helpful if someone knowlegeable in metal working
could briefly define the various methods used to make metal firearm
parts.  I often see the terms "investment-casting", "forged",
"stamped", ... when describing the quality of workmanship that goes
into a gun.

What does each process involve?  What advantages or disadvantages
are there to the resulting product?  Which are more expensive,
higher quality, ...?  How do you tell the difference between
forged, cast, and stamped parts when looking at a gun?

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ.
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Lead in brass confirmed, news at 11
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:17:51 GMT
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

In article <1992Dec16.113041.4610@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#
#What does this have to do with guns?  They went into some depth on
#one of the news programs, and pointed out that it was the brass!
#One of the manufacturers reps was even shown talking about how 
#they had tried lots of other materials but nothing worked as well
#as brass.
#
#I don't know how much coverage this got out of California, but it was
#a pretty big news item on the local news stations and on MacNiel Lehier.
#
#I feel vindicated now about my earlier discovery that the lead test
#kit found lead in new clean brass ...

Funny you should bring this up.  I just read today in an internally
distributed article that an AT&T engineer has patented a new brass
formulation which replaces the lead in brass with bismuth.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Lead in brass confirmed, news at 11
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:55 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Dec16.113041.4610@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com 
(E. Michael Smith) writes:

#On the nightly news was the report that California was leaning on 
#a bunch of faucette makers to clean up their act since all (37 or so)
#makes of faucette put unacceptable lead levels into the drinking water
#when water stands in the faucette.

I saw that in the local paper this a.m.  Apparently the manufacturers
have found they have to use leaded brass to stop casting porosity.
I believe the paper said they were using 8% lead in the brass alloy.
This, if it's not a misprint, is a very high lead content - about the
level you would use in racing bearings and over twice what you would use
in extra-high leaded brass.  Common casting alloys for fittings only have
around 1.5% lead.  Other casting alloys (not for fittings) do run up 
to 8% Pb.

#I feel vindicated now about my earlier discovery that the lead test
#kit found lead in new clean brass ...

You should be proud of the sensitivity of your test - lead is an
undesirable impurity in cartridge brass (CDA 260) so you were detecting 
something which was present in an amount much less than 1%.

#So wash up after handling a lot of brass ... and don't suck on any rounds ;-)

Always good advice.

#(I guess brass coffee mugs are out too ...)

Shh!!  You're liable to depress the market!

For those who aren't already bored:
Classically, brass was a copper-zinc alloy and bronze was a copper-tin alloy.
There are literally hundreds of alloys of each.  These are alloys of not just
the nominal components (copper and zinc or tin) but also many trace elements.
The common alloys have CDA numbers.  CDA is the copper development assn.
You can look up specs for alloys in CDA's publications.  Cartridge brass is 
70% copper and 30% zinc.  It is also used in radiators and lamp fixtures.
CDA 260 is hardened by "working" it; rolling it in a mill or forming it.
It is not heat treatable except to anneal it.  It anneals at a very low
temperature; you can do it in your oven.  By the way, this does NOT mean
you should anneal your cases in the oven, fer cryin' out loud.  You never
want to anneal a case head.  Too much brass leaks out of your gun that way.
CDA 260 is one of those alloys which is subject to "season cracking" which
means if it is exposed to the wrong chemistry, it will crack with time.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Smith & Wesson Autos
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:15:46 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co

baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:

###      Satisfactory accuracy. Not match grade, but still
###      quite good enough for the intended purposes.
##
## The SIG has superior accuracy, and, IMHO, superior fit and finish
## compared to the Smiths. I'd like to have a full-size Smith in 10mm, 
## but the grips are horrible (IMHO) and the thing just feels like
## it's cheaply made. I also can't stand those paper-thin barrels
## they use. But your mileage may vary, and obviously does.

#In addition of their superior accuracy, fit and finish, the SIGs have
#another advantage. While the triggers of the S&W PISTOLS is at best
#mediocre, the ones of the SIG are really excellent. I would even say
#that they are as good as the ones of many revolvers. That's very important
#even in self defense.

I still am amazed at the number of people that desperately need to believe 
that S&W makes wonderful handguns.  The 10mm (1076) is especially poor, as the
FBI has had to find out the hard way.  

I fired a lot of rounds through a 3913 last time out, and I wasn't impressed.
It didn't jam on me, but the grips, the trigger pull especially, and the 
accuracy all were disappointing to say the least.  It seems to me that for the
amount of pistolsmith work required to get one of these to shoot well, you
could afford to go out and buy a SIG, or a Colt.  

I can only surmise that the popularity of S&W is due to pricing being such 
that a lot of people own them, and everyone loves whatever it is they decide 
to buy (even if deep inside they know it's a piece of junk, they can't admit 
it).  Another reason is probably the proliferation of bumber stickers saying 
something like 'This Run-Down Pickup Truck Protected by Swith & Wesson'.  

I don't mean to really flame S&W; FOR THE PRICE, they make a decent gun.  But,
for making premium handguns, they are clearly beaten by a lot of other 
manufacturers.  Unfortunately, some of the others are in financial trouble, 
because high quality guns move in radically lower volumes due to the higher
prices.  I don't ever stop wondering why people would by a S&W .357 magnum
revolver for example, with folks constantly warning "Don't shoot too much 
Magnum through that gun, use .38 special instead".  IMHO, if you buy a S&W
.357 Magnum, you should be able to fire .357MAG through it EVERY time out
without hurting the gone (more than any other .357 out there anyway).

-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:20:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

Rob Boudrie writes:
#This is procedure only if the gun will function that way - some guns with magazine
#disconnect safeties will not unless a mag is inserted first (thereby creating
#an "is the mag really empty?" risk).  This falls more under the subject of 
#"proper procedure" rather than USPSA rule - there is nothing I could find in the
#rulebook which specifies that the hammer must be dropped by a trigger pull.

Well, here's the real deal (for the US, anyway), straight from the 6th Edition
(the most recent, to the best of my knowledge) of the Practical Shooting
Handbook:

This is from page 21, USPSA REGULATIONS, US 8.05 NOT READY...

"HAMMER DOWN - USPSA procedure is to drop the hammer by means of the trigger
for both autoloaders and revolvers.  If the self-loader requires a magazine to
be inserted, the competitor should use an empty magazine and remove it after
demonstrating that the chamber is empty by dropping the hammer.  If the firearm
discharges when the hammer is dropped, the shooter is disqualified from the
match regardless of whether or not the Range Officer also may have viewed the
chamber.  It is always the shooter's responsibility to insure his gun is safe.
(12.02)"

So, in the USPSA, a) if your gun has a magazine safety, you are still covered
by USPSA rule; b) the hammer must be dropped by function of the trigger; c) if
the gun discharges at this point, you are DQ'd, whether the RO noticed the
loaded chamber or not.


-- 
DVC,
  Paul
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:29:54 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Dec14.183537.4636@athena.cs.uga.edu>, boone@athena.cs.uga.edu (Roggie Boone) writes:
#My question is, if one has to shoot inside a car (either at someone
#in your car, or through a windshield to get someone trying to get 
#into your car), how do you protect your ears (and those of passengers)
#from the blast noise?
	1) roll a window down. This gives the sound an escape point,
	and reduces the overpressures that will burst your eardrums
	if the car is tightly sealed.
	2) At the moment you fire, yell as loud as you can. This
	partially disconnects the little bones in the ear from the
	ear drum. you will get about 10-20 dB reduction from this.
	(my guess, based on my experiences) you will probably still
	end up with burst ear drums, but the inner workings of you
	ears will suffer less damage.

 3) try to shoot the perp before he gets into the car. ;) yeah I know
easier said than done.
-c 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: MAC10 - Open bolt v. closed bolt
Date: 19 Dec 92 22:48:17 GMT


#As to whether it is easier to convert an open-bolt to full auto; this sounds
#like a reasonable general statement to me.   To give an unqualified answer, I
#think one would have to examine the particular design in question, though.

WRT the open bolt MAC-10, it was notoriously easy to convert to full-auto -
all you had to do was grind down a part.  This gave you a full-auto only
gun; a select-fire conversion is slightly more difficult.

I had thought that they placed open-bolt MAC-10s under the NFA, with the $200
tax and background check.  I get the impression from the original post that
this is not the case, and open-bolt semi-autos, while no longer manufactured,
can still be bought without the additional restrictions (albeit at an inflated
price).  Is this the case?

If so, I've been wanting one of those open-bolt Voere .22s.  What's the
going rate on one?

Rob
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why no plastic cased .38 special?
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:19:58 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Dec16.113628.4692@michael.apple.com>, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# While staring at soem ACTIV brand 12 guage shells and reading my
# newest aquisitions (Cartridges of the World) I got to wondering...
# 
# Why are there no {rifle,pistol, revolver} rounds loaded in plastic
# cases?  Sure, we have the Aluminum Blazers, but why not plastic?
# 
# E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

Odd you should mention this.  I just got a flyer in the mail from
some company starting to sell plastic cased rifle and pistol ammo.
They claim it's lighter, cheaper, and more accurate than brass
cased ammo.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:47 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

# #(or pray the noise doesn't knock you out and cause you to run off
# #the road and hit a tree)?
# 
# If you're the one driving, you should try to bring the car to a stop
# before (or at least while) engaging in a gunfight.  Suddenly braking
# may offer an especially good opportunity to take the initiative.

I don't remember if this was mentioned, but I think some "defensive"
(_real_ "defensive") driving study might be more appropriate.  

1.  Always leave maneuver room between you and the car in front.

2.  Have a plan, i.e. if this happens, I'm going to do this.  Better yet
have 2 or more plans.

3.  You're driving a 2000 lb.+ (usually) blunt instrument.  It isn't too
good for fine work, but he _will_ get out of the way.  If he doesn't, it
just isn't his lucky day.

4.  Avoid dangerous neighborhoods whenever possible.

5.  If the firearm is illegal, the Maglite (or clone) usually is legal.

6.  If you must frequent dangerous neighborhoods, some Lexan (tm) window
replacements might be worth considering (anyone know where to get these? 
What they cost?).

7.  I'm sure there are things I have forgotten.  Any other ideas would be
welcome.  There was an article on this recently in one of the gun mags,
alas, I forget which one.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:41 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Dec15.221054.2691@michael.apple.com>, by ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith):
# Then there is the other option ... it is risky, but if the 'perp'
# is right on top of you ... you can 'silence' the gun by pushing
# the muzzle against his guts .... I'd only do this if the tactical
# conditions were not compromised by it, though...
# 
# 	[MODERATOR:  Oops, have care about doing this with some
# 	 semiautos, like the good old 1911A1 ... you don't need
# 	 much pressure on front of the slide to actuate a disconnector
# 	 and prohibit you from firing....]
# -- 
# 

Maas Ayoob (sp?) had an article on "contact shooting" some time ago.  He
went to a slaughterhouse and tried this with some beef cattle.  If I
remember correctly, he got off a couple of shots with an auto and one with
a revolver (different cattle ;-{) ) before they were jammed with blood,
beef, skin and hair.  (This was with the muzzle against or nearly against
the cow.)
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: ward@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Ward Jonathan Wheeler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SA-reorg
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:01 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

I read the numerous articles on .45 ACP's with interest. I had decided to
buy one, and was in doubt as to which, although I liked the Springfield
Armory one that I had seen in a gun shop.

After reading all those articles extolling the Springfield Armory
offerings, I decided that was to be the one, and placed an order 
with the dealer. He responded after a few days, that SA is closed, and
the gun I want is not available.

I had read here that there was a reorganisation in progress, so was
not TOO surprised. Does anyone know what the status of the reorganisation
is, or when  (or whether) guns will be available again ?

Does anyone know of an alternate source where a Model 1911A1
stainless steel  Champioin Competition SA .45 ACP can be obtained ?

Thanks for all responses.

Ward Wheeler, Undergrad                 C'est en forgeant
UW - Milwaukee                          qu'on devient forgeron.
ward@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *Nice* ranges are a myth?
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:20:14 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Dec15.015147.8976@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#In article <lairdb.723858257@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
#
#}... Somewhere out there are ranges
#}like the one shown in Beverly Hills Cop, where you go to the Juice Bar 
#}after shooting to await the delivery of your cleaned firearm and your
#}hand collected brass.  ...
#
#To the best of my knowledge, that range doesn't exist.  There _is_ a
#"Beverly Hills Rifle and Gun Club," but it's not in Beverly Hills and,
#IMHO, the only things there that live up to the name are their prices and
#their sweatshirts.
#

BHGC is a dump.  It is old and run down and NEVER looked like the one in 
BH Cop.  I'm not sure where the movie was shot, but the two nicest ranges
in the LA area are the Santa Anita Indoor Firing Range in Monrovia and the
La Puente Indoor Range.  Shoot there and you will never want to shoot 
anywhere else.  25 yards, target holders on tracks (not bobbing on wires),
preset stops, good sound proofing, excellant ventilation and air conditioning.
My wife and I hide there on the hottest of the LA days.

Lethal Weapon was filmed at the Santa Anita range as well as a couple of
other movies.  The BH's Cop range is a myth, besides - who would want to
pay $20 an hour for range time would be a drag.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Match, Wheel, Flint Locks
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:53:38 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <Bz6n7t.LJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine):
# Does anyone know what the difference between these
# types of actions?
# 

Matchlock:  This "lock" had kind of slow burning fuse (punk?) which was
arranged in such a manner that the fuse was brought to the touch hole to
ignite the powder.  I don't remember if there was an external pan of extra
fine ffffg powder with this one as there was (is) with the other 2.

Wheel lock: This had a spring driven wheel studded with iron pyrites (?)
to generate sparks and ignite a small reservoir of ffffg powder which in
turn ignited the main charge in the gun.  I think it was a pretty good
system, but complicated and fragile compared with the flintlock.

Flintlock: This has a small piece of flint held in a hammer arrangement
which strikes a steel (striker, frizzen?) piece striking sparks into a
small reservoir of ffffg powder which then ignites the main charge (we hope).
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)