From: ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Mullah, Ulama, Jinnah and Two Nation Theory
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:08:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Subject: Re: Mullah, Ulama, Jinnah and Two Nation Theory

S>2: Sir Syed and like minded people opposed this policy of seclusion
     of the general ulemas. They embarked on a more compromising path.

A> Thanks God, he realized that Muslims MUST be educated in order to survive. 
   BTW, Syed Ahmad Khan never worked for Hindu-Muslim unity. He never joined
   Congress. Read his speeches.

S>Please, read the article carefully. Ulemas non-cooperated with the British
  as is very clear from (1) above. Therefore (2)  mentions compromise
  of Sir Syed with Britishers, not with Hindus. Please read carefully before
  replying.

Sir, learning English and Western knowledge was not 'compromise'.
It was right thing to do as time proved it. May Allah bless Sir Syed's soul.  
He was the first muslim to analyze the most important issue of the time:
Reasons of the fall of Muslim Empire. He foresaw  correctly that the only
way to restore dignity of MUSLIMS is through modern education. What was
going on in Madrissahs at that time? Practicing and encouraging Takfeer 
among muslim sects when it was time to unite the defeated nation, and taking 
pride in being ignorant of new culture. It was not 'seclusion'. It was 
destructive and un-Islamic.
 
S>3: Generation raised under Sir Syed lost sight of the reasons of 
     (i) why ulemas didn't compromise, (ii) why Sir Syed compromised.

A> This makes no sense whatsoever.

S>How can it make sense, when you took (2) as compromising with Hindus, instead
  of Britishers!!

I have no idea how you got this 'compromised with hindus' from my answer
of (2) and repeated it again here.

S>4: Therefore, we saw between 1900-20 efforts by Mohammad Ali Jauhar and
     co to follow Turkey's youthful march towards modernism.

A>You must be joking. Khalafat Movement, for example, was to turn clock back: 
 foolish act of short-vision by a sincere mullah. Do you know Jinnah opposed it?

S> Again jumping to conclusions. 
   Where did I say Jinnah was for or against Khilafat movement?
   Clearly I am distinguishing two types of groups in (4) and (5) below
   that were  mentioned as the generation succeeding Sir Syed in (3).

Muhammad Ali Jouher Was NOT following modernism. He was going BACKWARD to
the restoration of Khalafat.

S>I said that Ulemas and Jinnah and co. were both believers of the
  same two nation theory. 

A>  Who were these 'ulama' ? Any names??? Any references??

S>.... Not to leave you in suspense, I am talking
      about the ulemas of Deoband, and desciples of Ashraf Ali Thanvi
      __ in line with Syed Ahmed Shaheed who was martyred in 1821. 

    [other names mentioned : Shibli, Sulaiman Nadvi]

I was asking about the Ulama who believed in  2-nation theory.
Hazrat Syed Ahmad Shaheed and his followers' struggle is beyond the
scope of my question.
Allama Shibli Nomaani belonged to Sir Syed school of thought( educating 
muslims and participating in British Government). Suliman Nadvi was a 
faithful STUDENT of Allama, therefore he belonged to the same school. 
You are telling me about the followers of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan.

I have no knowledge about Hazrat Thanvi's philosophy regarding 2-nation
theory or guiding muslims towards better political future.

A> Jinnah wanted to form a very loose federation --3 units. He was willing
   to compromise: less autonomy for larger land. Till  March 1947, that
   was his strategy. He used 'Pakistan' as a trump card to get concessions
   from Congress and the Raj. When he could not achieve his goals, he  even 
   asked Soherwardy to work for INDEPENDENT Bengal if Calcatta was included.
   That was the 2-Nation concept as Jinnah understood. How Mullah and Ulama 
   understood this concept,  you tell me.

S> Pick any book on Muslim Fiqh and read the places where they describe
   the concept of dar-ul-harab and dar-ul-islam!

   These concepts did not work: neither in India nor any where else.
   Do you claim that these terms define 2-Nation theory??

S> I already mentioned that ulemas had lost the national leadership of
   the Muslims. 

A> When was mullah 'national leader' of muslims??

S>From Shah Waliulllah's time. Forgotten Maualana Ubaidullah Sindhi?
  and his silken handkerchief movement?
  When they led the revolt against British. They were the defacto leaders after
  the spinelessness of the ceremonial Moguls.

Hazrat Shah Wali-ullah was a NON political figure. He died before 1857.

Mr. Sindhi was of this century. Can you tell about his political affiliations?

Arshad Hussain