From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Arabic Culture
Date: 1 Oct 92 01:07:06 GMT
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia

I have changed the name of the topic, so that we are not beating a dead horse. 

In article <1992Sep30.141254.20832@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, ksalah@nyx.cs.du.edu (Khaled Salah) writes:
|> 
|> Is this the way to do it?  Blame it on Islam.  The Ottman rule was
|> an Islamic Empire that was applying Islamic rules all over.  But the
|> history they teach us was all mixed up and wrong and serves the
|> justification to break down the Empire into small parts.  In history,
|> they pertrayed the last Empire of Islam as corrupted and injust.  I am
|> not saying that it was 100% purely Isalmic and free of corruption, but
|> its good was dominating its bad.  For example, Jews used to come to Sultan
|> Abdel Hameed who was the governer of Palestine at the time and try to
|> bribe him with money, gold, etc to sell palestine for them or at least
|> give them authority to migrate to it, but he refused to do so.  And he used
|> to say "Palestine is the Land of All Muslims and I am just a ruler here."
|> Muslims at the time used to live in honor and dignity.  They used to travel
|> from East to West without restrictions.  The only identity was Islam.

I am NOT blaming the religion entirely. The fact that Islam allowed a
foreign entity just because they were Muslims is what I am criticising. This
entity has neglected the Middle East, and created the various sectarism
problems in MY OPINION. Islam was not practised justly in the M.E. by the
Ottoman rule. I beleive this is where all religions fail to consider, that
nationalism at the end will surface and prevail. The ottomans were more
concerned with building a political empire than building an Islamic state.
They also just did that, and all the riches of the M.E. was taken to please
the Sultan. Under the Islamic state, some people were required to pay taxes,
that also makes it a political state.

|>    
|> However, look what had happened since the Arabs and Westren world
|> conspired to break down the empire, you, I, and all Muslims all over the
|> globe are still suffering because of it.  Name for me one Islamic nation,
|> Arab or not Arab, without any problem.

Every one has problems, including the Western nations that Martillo is so
proud off. The fact is that, western nations have looked to science, technology,
and colonialism to improve their economic status, the M.E. is still waiting
for Allah to solve those problems. In my opinion, this is because Islam now
adays is different than the Islam practised back then.

The Arabs conspired against the Ottomans, because they were sucking the Blood
of those Arabs. The suffering is not because they broke up, but because the
Ottomans were the source of the problem in the first place. You have a very
weired way of thinking, I hope most Muslims do not share your thought. This
thinking will no doubt invite another occupier, I suppose you would like
Iran or pakistan to take over next.

I will tell a story that was told to me the last time I was in Syria. This
guy who was an engineering assistant in a factory, who was Muslim. One night
while sitting with the Sheikh discussing religion, told the Sheikh, look at
what the west has done in Science, Technology, they even went to the Moon, yet
we have not done any thing. The Sheik replied, My son why should we work hard
to do that when Allah has enslaved those western nations to do it for us.

Is this suppose to be Islam?.

|> 
|> The problem that is we are having now is that we are too far from Islam
|> and trying to imitate what is so called Westren Civilzation.  Islam is
|> the only way to bring us all together.  This has proven all the time in
|> history.  It was muslims (not Arabs) who liberated Palestines from the
|> crusaders (Salah El Deen who was from kurdish origin).  It was muslims
|> (not Arabs) who had the peek of civization in sience, philosphy, and
|> mathmatics.  Abin Sinaa, Raziee, Jaber Bin Hyan, who are not form Arab
|> origin.  We were all dominating the world when we were all muslims not
|> Arabs.  And that the true meaning of civlization.  It was moral and
|> cultural one.

Every one had those problems at one time. When the Jews according to the torah
deviated from their religion, they were hit with all kinds of problems. They
could not keep up with the strict rules and from time to time they broke them.
The message here, every one will deviate from Idealism. Idealism is just that.

|> 
|> How then could Islam have allowed for foriegn rule?  Just don't understand!
|> When the Isalmic Empired was broken, there was no Islam left.  It's the
|> ignorant Arabs traitors who did it, like Sharif Hussain.  Lawerence of
|> Arabia movie shows you how they went about breaking down the empire.
|> Lawerence used to travel to each village and tell them you are A R A B S,
|> and you should fight for your independence from the Ottmanis.

Islam has created an empire as you say, it was a political one also.
The Arabs who fought for their freedom are traitors?. The people of Yemen and Syria were fighting the Ottomans before the French and british set a foot
in the middle east. Surely you cannot be an Arab, you should tell us where
are you from.

|>       
|> >I think Islamic teaching can be good for getting read of greed
|> >and criminal behaviour if it was more open minded to give equality for
|> >other religions and Women.
|> 
|> Islam is a way of life.  It is not only for criminals.  Islam does give
|> equality to other religions.  Christians used to live in peace in Palestine
|> when Omer Al Farooq entered Jerusalem and they even welcomed him.  Aslo
|> woman has its rights in Isalm, not the way the West sees it but the way
|> that Isalm sees it.  If you are not convinced read the articles that Anisa
|> writes in this group or ask her to write you some explanation.  The US has
|> a rape rate of one case per 6 minutes.  Is this the way for equality?
|> Yes Islam is open minded if you understand the rational behind every rule.
|> You better understand Islam before starting to accusing it with random
|> thoughts.
|> 
|> _ Khaled Salah

All religions were meant to be a way of life, Islam is not the first and will
not be the last. Judaism was the first to be a way of life, they could not
keep that promise, and have been subjected to lots of problems according to the
Torah. Christianity was supposed to be a way of life, and no one could keep
that promise either.

The problem that you fail to recognise is that humans want there freedom to
choose, excersise their judgement, and pursue their happiness. Thus, any
religion that happens to be a way of life will fail. Why can't present day
Muslims like you understand this. Historically, every other religion has failed
at that attempt, yet you cannot live from that history. The Islamic state
crumbled back then because of this supposed way of life.

To answer your question about minorities and women. Rape must be defined
in your context. If I force my wife to have sex with me when she does not, then
it is by definition rape. She may not call the Police and report it, but it is
rape. This happens all over the place. The reason there is rape in the US and
other western societies every six minutes, is not because they are Non-Muslims,
and give equality to women. This is a very naive and leaky argument from
an educated person. The reaons are very complex. Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq have
given Women equality and they don't have a rape every six minutes, six hours,
six days, or six weeks.

Here in Australia, research has shown that you inherit your inteligence from
your mother. If she is intelligent like you, don't you think she could make
the right choices like you and protect herself. My message to you, the time
has come for you to come out of hiding behind those rules that I and others
may not understand.

This is the kind of thinking that invites the harsh criticism from Martillo
and others, and the thinking that women are affraid to speak against. I see
egyptian and recently a Morracon film was shown on Australian television. The
treatmnet of those women was so harsh, it was pathetic.

A.Faris