From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: 'NamVet Newsletter, Vol.4, no.11 (1/6)
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 21:00:16 GMT


     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     .                                  __                           .
     .    -*-  N A M   V E T  -*-  ____/  \_                         .
     .                            (      *  \                        .
     .        Managing  Editor    \    Quangtri                      .
     .        ----------------     \_/\       \_ Hue                 .
     .         G. Joseph Peck          \_Ashau    Phu Bai            .
     .                                   \_*       \_                .
     .      Editorial Assistant            \      *  )               .
     .      -------------------           _/     Danang              .
     .          Pete Farias              (            \_*Chu Lai     .
     .                                    \_    ------- \__          .
     .      Distribution Manager            \_  I Corps    \         .
     .      --------------------              \ -------     !        .
     .          Jerry Hindle                 /\_____        !        .
     .                                      /       !        \       .
     .        Section Editors               !       !___      \      .
     .        ---------------               !           \/\____!     .
     .  AGENT ORANGE: Martin H. Kroll, Sr.  !                 !      .
     .  IN-TOUCH: Ray "Frenchy" Moreau     /  Dak To          !      .
     .  INCARCERATED VETS: Joyce Flory    /     *            /       .
     .  HOMELESSNESS:   Lefty Frizzell    !                  \_      .
     .  FEDERAL BENEFITS: Jim Hildwine    !             Phu Cat\     .
     .  GUEST CHAPLAIN:  Michael Harris    \    *            *  )    .
     .                                      \ Pleiku            )    .
     .   -**-  N A M    V E T   -**-         \                  \    .
     .                                       /                  /    .
     . "In the jungles of 'Nam, some of us  (       --------    !    .
     . were scared and wary, but we pulled  _\      II Corps    !    .
     . one another along and were able     /        --------     \   .
     . to depend on each other.  That has  \                      \  .
     . never changed.  Today, free of the   !                 *  /   .
     . criticisms and misunderstandings   _/           Nhatrang /    .
     . many veterans have endured,      _/                     /     .
     . NAM VET is a shining beacon,  __/                       !     .
     . a ray of hope, and a    _  __/  \                       !     .
     . reminder that the _____( )/      !               Camranh Bay  .
     . lessons learned  /               !__                    !     .
     . at such a high  /                   \                  /      .
     . price shall not \          Bien Hoa  \                /       .
     . be forgotten  -  !  Chu Chi       *   \            __/        .
     . nor the errors    \_   *   ---------   \       ___/           .
     . repeated!!!"  ____  \      III Corps    \    _/               .
     .       / \_____)   )_(_     ---------     !__/  Duplication in .
     .       !               (               ___/ any form permitted .
     .  _____!                \__      * ___/      for NONCOMMERCIAL .
     . !                          Saigon/            purposes ONLY!  .
     .  \___   --------           /  \/                              .
     .      \  IV Corps          /       For other use, contact:     .
     .       ) --------         /                                    .
     .      /                   !   G. Joseph Peck (413) 442-1660    .
     .     /               ____/           Managing Editor           .
     .    /         Mekong/                                          .
     .    !         Delta/  This newsletter is comprised of articles .
     .    !        ____/     and items from individuals and other    .
     .    !       /       sources.  We are not responsible for the   .
     .    !      /      content of this information nor are any of   .
     .    !   __/        NAM VETs contributors or Section Editors.   .
     .     \_/                                                   gjp .
     .                                                               .
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                      Page    i
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     

     =================================================================

                     T A B L E   O F   C O N T E N T S

     
     1.  From the Commander-In-Chief
          A Veterans Day Proclamation .............................  1

     2.  Editorials
          Sign it in blood!  We did! ..............................  2
          Bringin' NamVet to YOUR door! ...........................  5
          One Vets Feelings .......................................  7
          Old 'Nuff For The Real America? .........................  8

     3.  In a country far away...
          "All POWs are Dead!" says US Government! ................  9
          They haven't forgutten US!!! ............................ 16
          Walkin' Point ........................................... 17

     4.  ATTACK on the U.S.S. Liberty!!!
          USS Liberty: 23 Years Later ............................. 18
          Reunion: USS Liberty Veterans Association ............... 24

     5.  In-Touch
          "In Touch" Unites Families, Friends and Strangers ....... 24
          In-Touch: What is it??? ................................. 27
          IN-TOUCH Registration/Request Form!!! ................... 30
          Innocence ............................................... 32

     6.  The NamVet Chapel
          Inside the Chaplain's Heart ............................. 33
          The Electronic Chapel ................................... 37
          WE WERE CHILDREN ........................................ 38

     7.  The "Not-So-Secret-Anymore" Agent
          A well-earned rest! ..................................... 41
          Break out the Clearasil <tm>! ........................... 43
          Should You Be Concerned About Agent Orange? ............. 44
          More than ONE poison in Vietnam! ........................ 47
          Zumwalt Suggests Link with 27 Diseases/Disorders! ....... 57

     8.  The Few but Special
          National Women Veterans Recognition Week ................ 58
          VWMP's Sister Search .................................... 59
          VWMP's Sister Search Form ............................... 60
          We're Not Alone ......................................... 61

     9.  Don't Abandon 'em
          Silence and Empty Cells? ................................ 62
          A visit or note once in awhile? ......................... 63

     10.  Hearts n' Minds
          War just isn't a cool topic ............................. 64
          Reflecting .............................................. 66
          The War No One Wants to Remember ........................ 68

     11.  Uncle Sam wants YOU to know
          Ask the Veterans' Affairs Counselor ..................... 77

     12.  Concentrated IVVEC/NamVet Service
          Vet Service Summary - USPO, Radio Shack, DAV ............ 79
          Radio Shack Responds to "Misunderstanding" .............. 81
          Others WILL follow ...................................... 82

     13.  IVVEC & NamVet - WHERE?
          The NamVet/IVVEC  Roll Call ............................. 83
          Some Gave All... ........................................ 86










































     NAM VET Newsletter                                      Page   ii


     =================================================================
           F r o m   t h e   C o m m a n d e r - I n - C h i e f
     =================================================================

                        A Veterans Day Proclamation
                            Veterans Day, 1990
                              By George Bush
               The President of the United States of America
     
                              A PROCLAMATION
     The  Bible tells us that no greater love has a man than  this:  to 
     lay  down his life for a friend.   Our Nation's military  veterans 
     are  brave and selfless individuals who,  when duty  called,  were 
     willing  to  put themselves in harm's way to defend the lives  and 
     liberty of others.   Each November 11,  we pause with solemn pride 
     and  heartfelt gratitude to honor this special group of Americans. 
     The sacrifices they have made for our sake - and, indeed,  for the 
     sake  of millions of freedom-loving men and women around the world 
     -  can never be forgotten.   Their abiding patriotism and enduring 
     devotion  to the ideals on which the United States is founded  can 
     never fail to inspire us.
     
     This  Nation's  veterans  have made their stand  for  freedom  and 
     democratic  ideals  from  the  Argonne  Forest  to  the  windswept 
     Aleutian  Islands,  from the searing sands of North Africa to  the 
     steep  hills  and  dense jungles of  Southeast  Asia.   Some  have 
     defended  the  cause of individual liberty and self-government  in 
     more recent conflicts and less remote places,  such as Grenada and 
     Panama.   They  have  seen comrades-in-arms fall on the  field  of 
     battle, giving "the last full measure of devotion" for our country 
     and  the vision of freedom and justice we hold dear.   They,  too, 
     have  suffered  and sacrificed,  carrying on the light of  liberty 
     with efforts that have been equally selfless and heroic.
     
     It is fitting that we pause on the anniversary of "Armistice Day," 
     a day of peace and celebration, to honor America's veterans and to 
     express our gratitude for their courage and sacrifice.   World War 
     I,  which  ended with the signing of the Armistice on November 11, 
     1918, did not,  as millions of people hoped,  prove to be "The War 
     to End All Wars."   Nevertheless,  we know that our wold is safer, 
     freer, and more peaceful today thanks to the vigilance and resolve 
     of our Armed Forces.  Indeed, our Nation's veterans have helped to 
     bring peace and freedom to regions of the world that once suffered 
     under  the  shadow of hostility and oppression.   The  triumph  of 
     democratic  ideals to Eastern Europe and other parts of the  world 
     provides  powerful evidence that their sacrifices were not made in 
     vain.
     
     Although  the  dramatic  social  and  political  changes  we  have 
     witnessed  around  the  world  during  the  past  year  provide  a 
     resounding  affirmation of the ideals our veterans have fought  to 
     uphold,  current  events in the Persian Gulf region underscore the 
     need  for  continued  strength and vigilance on the part  of  free 
     nations.  As veterans have so often reminded us, eternal vigilance 
     is,  indeed,  the  price of liberty.   These great heroes who have 
     left  their  own  "footprints  on the sands  of  time"  know  that 
     preparedness deters aggression,  and they understand the important 
     task before those American service men and women now keeping watch 
     along the sands and off the shores of Saudi Arabia.
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  1
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     
     On this Veterans Day,  mindful of President Wilson's call to honor 
     our  Nation's  war heroes with a 2-minute interval of  silence  at 
     11:00 a.m. on November 11, 1919, let us pause to remember and pray 
     for  all  those men and women who have since served in the  United 
     States  Armed Forces.   Through special  services,  programs,  and 
     ceremonies  held  in their honor on this day,  let us affirm  that 
     their  singular  contributions  to our country are  cherished  and 
     remembered.   Let us also strive,  each and every day of the year, 
     to  ensure  that ours remains a land worthy of the great love  our 
     veterans have shown for it.
     
     In  order that we may pay due tribute to those who have served  in 
     our  Armed Forces,  the Congress has provided (5  U.S.C.  6103(a)) 
     that November 11 of each year shall be set aside as a legal public 
     holiday to honor America's veterans.
     
     NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE BUSH,  President of the United States of 
     America, do hereby proclaim Sunday, November 11, 1990, as Veterans 
     Day.    I  urge  all  Americans  to  honor  our  veterans  through 
     appropriate  public ceremonies and private prayers.   I also  call 
     upon Federal, State, and local government officials to display the 
     flag  of  the  United States and to encourage and  participate  in 
     patriotic  activities  in their communities.   I invite civic  and 
     fraternal organizations, churches,  schools,  businesses,  unions, 
     and  the  media to support this national observance with  suitable 
     commemorative expressions and programs.
     
     IN  WITNESS WHEREOF,  I have hereunto set my hand this seventeenth 
     day  of  October,  in  the year of our Lord nineteen  hundred  and 
     ninety,  and  of the Independence of the United States of  America 
     the two hundred and fifteenth.
     
                                    /s/
                                George Bush
          Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990



     =================================================================
                            E d i t o r i a l s
     =================================================================

                        Sign it in blood!  We did!
                            By: G. Joseph Peck
                         NamVet's Managing Editor
                  VETLink #1 - Pittsfield, Massachusetts
                              (413) 443-6313
     
       It's  been  a busy,  busy month here in the northeast!   With  a 
     severe shortage of funds,  our Governor was forced to look at some 
     areas where cuts in funding would have to be made.  The "cuts"  in 
     funding were to have eliminated ten of the eleven Veteran Outreach 
     Centers in our state and closed two state-funded soldiers'  homes.  
     Word   quickly   spread   from   veteran   organization-to-veteran 
     organization  and  soon plans for a rally were being drawn up  and 
     put into place.
       Initially, from our home here in Pittsfield, MA,  it was to have 
     cost the individual wishing to attend $20 but, the week before the 
     rally we were all informed that The American Legion would foot the 
     bill for transportation costs (THANK YOU, American Legion!).
       Upon arrival at Boston Common,  veterans in uniform and civilian 
     dress  from throughout the state were forming up as bus after  bus 
     emptied.  According to newspaper reports,  eight thousand veterans 
     attended - but it sure LOOKED like more ('course,  after the first 
     5000, guess they'd all tend to blend into the crowd anyways!) 
       It *WAS*  a spectacular sight!   When we formed up and began our 
     march  up to the Statehouse (State Capital Building),  the  entire 
     street was filled, curb-to-curb,  with veterans!   Physically able 
     veterans;  veterans  walking with canes;  veterans in  wheelchairs 
     either  wheeling themselves or brother/sister veterans behind them 
     pushing.   The  American Legion band led the way,  and the  colors 
     from  the varied units immediately followed.   A *STRONG*  show of 
     unity ... and it continued.
       It continued as speaker after speaker took the podium and stated 
     in  no  uncertain terms the "unwritten"  guarantees  that  America 
     gives  each  of  her  soldiers as they pledge  their  service  and 
     allegiance;  stated in no uncertain terms the determination to see 
     that this country and this state (Massachusetts) NOT renege on its 
     promises and pledges;   stated in no uncertain terms the good that 
     *HAS*  been  done  for veterans by the meager funding  already  in 
     place and how devastating it would be were that funding to cease.
       Then,  as  8000+  veterans  stood  in  near-formation  near  the 
     Statehouse  steps,  suddenly there came before the crowd those men 
     who were candidates for our upcoming political elections and each, 
     in turn began speaking to us.  
       In my humble opinion, it was *TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE* to turn our 
     veterans'  rally  into a political meeting.   Where a few  moments 
     before  we were being told about the needs and necessities of  our 
     brother  and sister veterans and how they *WERE*  being served  at 
     the  Veteran  Outreach Centers and how the homeless  *WERE*  being 
     helped  -  although  meagerly -  by the states'  Homeless  veteran 
     coordinator,  we  quickly  found ourselves listening  to  campaign 
     promises after campaign promise.  Although equal time *was*  given 
     to  each candidate,  I personally felt that *NONE*  of 'em  should 
     have  been invited or allowed to speak!   They *SHOULD*  have just 
     stayed  by  the sidelines and *LISTENED*  to the  *NEEDS*  of  the 
     veterans  of our state -  *NOT*  make campaign promises to win our 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  2
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     votes or to an audience that, for the most part, had been severely 
     damaged by promises and actions of past politicians!
       Hearing  the "campaign promises"  of William Weld to "NOT  close 
     any Veteran Outreach Center, NOT close any Soldiers' Home, to make 
     SURE  that  the  Commissioner  of Veterans'  Affairs  would  BE  a 
     veteran, to continue efforts in solving the Homeless situation,  I 
     could not help but SHOUT:  "SIGN IT IN BLOOD!  WE DID!"  (Yup... I 
     left some of MY blood on a highway in Dawn, Virginia - and many of 
     you out here left some of theirs in 'Nam, Korea, and so many other 
     places where FREEDOM is constantly guarded!).  
       Election  night...   and William Weld became the new governor of 
     Massachusetts.  
       I thought about William Weld and some of the things I've come to 
     learn  about him...    A non-veteran who attended  college,  MIGHT 
     have taken some ROTC classes while there, but did not serve in the 
     military.  HOW is he - how CAN he understand the real needs of the 
     veteran population?  By osmosis?  By members of his administration 
     telling  him "THIS is a real need of the veteran community and you 
     should  DO something about it?"   Then I remembered the  statement 
     I'd shouted during the rally.
       
       "SIGN IT IN BLOOD!  WE DID!"
     
       Just  because  you and I and many other  veterans  "signed"  our 
     commitment  to America with our blood doesn't always mean that  we 
     have  the right to demand the same price of our fellow  countrymen 
     or  that we should look to them for some equally-strong measure of 
     THEIR  commitment before we take them seriously.   It is up to YOU 
     and  ME and ALL OF US to show,  by the intensity and determination 
     of OUR actions, not just our words, how deeply committed we are to 
     those principles for which we placed our lives on-the-line!  It is 
     up  to YOU and ME and ALL OF US who valued those prices we paid to 
     continue leading, continue persisting, and continue teaching those 
     who follow us -  rather than standing on the sidelines,  demanding 
     that  others  prove  to  us  the level  of  THEIR  commitment  and 
     dedication, doing nothing but watching.  
     
       A  couple  of  days ago I sent Governor-elect Weld a  letter  in 
     which  I took responsibility for being the person who shouted  the 
     slogan  which caused a little disruption in his  presentation.   I 
     reminded him of his campaign "promises" and that many veterans are 
     expecting him to keep them.   Of course,  I closed the letter with 
     an  offer  to  help him and his administration see to it  that  he 
     keeps his promises.
     
       There's  a tear or two in m'  eyes as I write this final part of 
     this month's editorial:
     
       Sign it in blood?
     
       Two  of  my three sons are now in the service.   Neither  is  in 
     Saudi Arabia - YET.   But they're in the military,  doin'  a job I 
     once used to do, doin' a job YOU and others used to do.
     
       Sign it in blood?  
     
       I  think  many of us have signed our commitment to America  with 
     more  than  our  own blood -  its now our sons and  daughters  who 
     follow in footprints we've left for them.   They'll come back to a 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  3
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     country  you and I have 'stayed the course'  for;  that you and I, 
     dedicated, committed,  and determined,  have continuously tried to 
     make better.
     
       Sign it in blood?  
     
       You're darned right I did - I have - and I will!!!
     
                'til next month ('er our Anniversary Issue)
                     Show a brother or sister veteran
                             That YOU care!!!
     
                              Ci'ao for Ni'ao
     
                                 -  Joe  -
     











































     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  4
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

                       Bringing NamVet to YOUR door!
                                        __________
                                       \  NamVet \
                                   _____) Delivery)_____
                        _________(____(________(______(@)
                         )                    )
                        / O O O O O O O O O/_/|
                       /<> O O O O O O O O O/ |
                      /MM O O O O O O O  MM/  |
                     /   ___________      /  .
                    /O  (___________) O O/.
                   (====================(
     
                        From the desk of Jerry Hindle
                        NamVet`s Distribution manager
                   Just Mail - Stratford Heights, Tennessee
                            (901) 683-5410
     
     Well....   I've   been  away  for a while I guess.   I had  a  few 
     problems   with  my  system  and  have  been  in  the  process  of 
     reconstructing things here.
     
     Let   me   bring things up to date first and then I will ask   for 
     comments...
     
     I   have   finally gotten ALL issues of the Namvet Newsletter   to 
     reside  on  my  system in 3 different formats.  These  are  *.LZH, 
     *.ARC,  and  for those NON-IBMers out there *.NWS (ascii text).  I 
     hope  this will make it available to everyone who wants it.  If  I 
     find  a need for yet another format I can add them in that  format 
     also, IF I see it is warranted.  Right now the files take about 13 
     megs of space in the formats available.
     
     I   lost  a lot in the disk(s)   crash (yep I lost 3  drives   all 
     SCSI's  and went from over 200 meg down to less then 20 in seconds 
     (ouch!),  but I am back now bigger then ever and ready to "rock n' 
     rollllllllll". I do however need those folks who I was feeding who 
     are  NOT on the list below to contact me via netmail again.  I may 
     be reached at either 7:48/0 (AlterNet) or 1:123/4 (fidonet).  This 
     is  a  mail  only system right now and I really have  no  time  to 
     devote  to  setting  up  a bbs for human callers  to  log  on  and 
     manually  DL the namvet files.  I would suggest you set up binkley 
     as  a POINT system and contact me for a point number.  This way  I 
     can file attach the newsletter to your "point and when you poll me 
     using your point the newsletter will be sent to you. 
     
     ALSO (BIG POINT HERE).....
      
     Those   on   the  below  list  are  going  to  be  receiving   the 
     newsletter  from  me instead of polling Gjoseph Peck for  it.  You 
     will  need  to  let  me know if your system is  a  CM  system  (ie 
     continous  mail)  and  also  what flavor of namvet file  you  want 
     (ASCII,  ARC,  or LZH)  from me.  I can only handle a few as ascii 
     cause  the cost is prohibative.  I have also placed behind some of 
     the  names the note that you will be forwarding the newsletter  on 
     to other members of your net and what their node numbers are. This 
     is  the  only  cost  effective  way of  doing  this  and  I  would 
     appreciate  it if you would work out details between yourselves on 
     this. I will not be sending the newsletter to more then 1 node per 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  5
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     net  no  matter what the circumstances.  If politics (or  personal 
     gripes)  are  in the way of you getting it from another member  of 
     your  net  then  I  might  suggest  you  working  it  out  amongst 
     yourselves also.
     
     Ok, enough of the long winded-ness. Here's the list
     
     Lefty Frizzell   1:106/449 please forward to 1:106/116
     Scott McKnight:  1:389/2001
     Mike Harris      1:343/26
     Ray Moreau       1:109/316
     Bob Currie       1:105/204
     Joan Renne       1:285/662
     Tom Mickus       1:250/440
     Mike Nelson      1:125/20
     Jim Barth        1:350/21
     Bob Rudolph      1:261/628
     Douglas Seavy    1:130/10
     Chuck Haynes     1:308/60 please forward to 1:308/20 & 1:308/101
     Sam Saulys       1:132/101
     
     The  people listed above need to let me know what flavor file  you 
     want BEFORE Veteran's Day... otherwise I shall send the LZH format 
     to  you.   The  ARC  format  is  arc5.02  compatible  (ie  fidonet 
     standards).
     
     Jerry Hindle
     1:123/4
     7:48/0
     modem phone (901)683-5410  HST 9600bps
     
     PS:  if your node is not an HST please let me know so I can try to 
     find  an HST in your net willing to accept the file and forward it 
     on to you.  All of this is coming out of MY POCKET,  no company is 
     footing the bills here.....
     























     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  6
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

                             ONE VETS FEELINGS
                              By Rod Germain
                        VETLink #1 - Pittsfield, MA
                              (413) 443-6313
     
     As  November rolls in so does a very important holiday.   No,  I'm 
     not talking about Thanksgiving.  It,  too,  is important, but in a 
     different way.  I am referring to Veteran's Day.  This special day 
     has  been set aside to remind each of us that all of the  freedoms 
     we  take for granted were made possible by those who served in our 
     country's armed forces.  These proud and brave men fought and died 
     to  preserve our way of life.   Our freedoms have been bought with 
     their  blood.  Let each of us honor them in some way this November 
     11, 1990.  Fly a flag in their honor, visit a vet's cemetery, take 
     a homeless vet to lunch, or ask your minister to pray for peace. 
       Our country's  young men are once again overseas and whether you
     agree or not with this conflict is irrelevant.  The facts are that 
     the  Government  "WE THE PEOPLE"  elected have seen fit to  commit 
     lives  once again.   It is these and past lives I ask you to honor 
     on  this Veterans Day,  not the politics.  These men deserve  your 
     respect, don't let them down.  They carry a part of all of us with 
     them, that part we call American.
     
     To all of you who are Veterans in our midst, I say THANK YOU!!! 
     
       If you can't tell, "Yes," I'm a Veteran.  My war was Vietnam.  I
     remember  all too well the 'Welcome Home' of the protesters at the 
     airport.  It  took them twenty years to realize they vented  their 
     feelings  on the wrong people.   When our boys come home,  welcome 
     them  as the heroes they are and vent any hostilities to  congress 
     or the President for sending them there.
       It is our elected officials who should be held  accountable  for
     this  country's politics.  They WILL NOT know your feelings if you 
     don't call or, better yet,  write them,  to express what you feel.  
     I implore each and everyone of you,  MAKE YOUR FEELINGS KNOWN!  If 
     your officials don't reflect your feelings, vote against them next 
     election.  Take  to  heart what they say,  discredit it  at  every 
     opportunity,  to family,  friends,  and above all to the officials 
     themselves.  Don't give up!  You may not see immediate results but 
     YOUR opinion IS important.  
       When speaking to my local Congressman I asked, "How many letters
     does  it take to make something a hot issue in your office?"   His 
     answer, "Four" -  and I live in the outskirts of Los Angeles,  Ca. 
     Most  of  us feel that one person's opinion isn't going to  change 
     anything.  Every time I hear this I am reminded of an old proverb, 
     "A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step". Let us 
     take  that  step,  find out who your Congressman  is,  write  that 
     letter, photocopy it,  send a copy to the White House.  You may or 
     may not get a response, but I guarantee you'll sleep better. Don't 
     stop  there,  the  next thing that official spouts that you  don't 
     agree with, RUN -  don't walk -  for pen and paper,  and blast him 
     again!   If  you  have  trouble motivating  yourself  to  it,  try 
     thinking of it this way:  Our fathers, brothers, sons, and friends 
     died  to  give us the right to speak out.  Honor their  deaths  by 
     using some of the freedoms they paid for.
     
                      MAY PEACE BE WITH US ALL SOON,
                                Rod Germain
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  7
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

                                Old Enough?
                             By: Scott Summers
                     The Fireside BBS - Houston, Texas 
                               (713)496-6319 
     
     In a recent post - Bob Whatishisname suggested that  Vietnam 
     Veterans don't like to think.  Maybe he's right - but he got me to 
     thinking.  I offer the following for consideration. 
      
      You're old enough to remember the real America if you can  
     remember when American's proudly proclaimed their patriotism.  
     When clerks and repairmen tried to please you - or else.  When you 
     never dreamed our country could ever lose.  When a Sunday drive 
     was an adventure, not an ordeal. When you left the front door 
     open.  When you went to church and found spiritual consolation.  
     When you could always find someone willing and able when you 
     needed something done.  When you had to be brave to fly.  When 
     people knew what the Fourth of July stood for.  When riots were 
     unthinkable. When the clergy talked about religion. When you took 
     it for granted that women and the elderly would have their safety 
     protected and the law would be enforced. When a girl was 
     considered daring if she smoked in public.  When Christmas was 
     merry and Christ was kept in it.  When a boy was a boy.  When a 
     girl was a girl.  When they liked each other.  When you didn't 
     feel embarrassed to say that this is the  best damned country in 
     the world.  When the flag was a  symbol.  When socialist was a 
     dirty word.   When a man who went wrong was blamed - not his 
     mothers nursing or his father's income.  When liberal wasn't.  
     When our government stood tall anywhere in the world.  When a  
     nickel was worth five cents - could buy you a magazine or  a good 
     cigar, or a 12 oz Pepsi.  When two nickels could  get you into the 
     movies with THREE pictures.  When even  Harvard professors knew 
     the difference between right and  wrong.  When things weren't 
     perfect, but you never expected them to be.  When taxes were 
     mearly a nuisance.  When you didn't feel guilty for enjoying 
     dialect comedy.  When the poor were too proud to accept charity.  
     When you  weren't afraid to go out at night with your family.  
     When you considered yourself lucky to have a good job.  When you 
     were proud to have one.  When Protestants and  Catholics thought 
     enough of their beliefs to argue about  them.   When you knew that 
     you could accomplish something.  When sick meant you weren't 
     feeling well  When people expected justice.   When ghettos meant  
     neighborhoods.  When you felt a little shiver of awe at the sight 
     of a policemen.  When everybody wasn't entitled to a college 
     education.  When you expected justice.  When young fellah TRIED to 
     join the Army.  When college kids swallowed goldfish, not acid.  
     When people valued  what they had.  When songs had a tune.  When 
     you wrote love notes.  When juvenile delinquents and criminals 
     went to jail.  When you could get away from it all for a  while.  
     When you bragged about your home state or your home town.  When 
     America was the home of the free and the home of the brave. 
     







     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  8
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990



     =================================================================
              I n   a   c o u n t r y   f a r   a w a y . . .
     =================================================================

                            All POWs are Dead!
                         Submitted by Terry Hayes
                        VETLink #1 - Pittsfield, MA
                              (413) 443-6313
     
     >> From Smith vs. Reagan, United States Court of Appeals,  for the 
     Fourth  Circuit,  No.  87-1661,  April,  20,  1988,  regarding the 
     POW/MIA issue. <<
     
     Introduction:  One  year ago,  the Ranking Minority Member of  the 
     Senate  Committee  on  Foreign Relations assigned members  of  the 
     Minority Staff to investigate the following three questions:
       1.)  Whether the United States Government has received and still 
     possesses   valid  information  concerning  living  prisoners   of 
     war/missing in action -- POW/MIAs -- in Southeast Asia; 
       2.)  Whether  the  U.S.  Government  has failed to act  on  such 
     information; and,
       3.)  Whether  the  U.S.   Government  has  acted  improperly  to 
     intimidate and discredit sources of such information. 
       It is not the purpose of this investigation to determine whether 
     any POW/MIAs remain alive today.  Its purpose is only to determine 
     whether the U.S. government has handled the question in a truthful 
     and effective manner.
       The inquiry remains on-going. It is based not only on the review 
     of thousands of classified and non-classified documents,  but also 
     upon  hundreds  of  telephonic and  face-to-face  interviews  with 
     government  officials  and those affected by their decisions  with 
     regard  to  POW/MIAs.  A full report will require much  additional 
     investigation and analysis. The following, however,  represents an 
     interim report at the conclusion of one year's work. It allows the 
     presentation of some preliminary conclusions.
       Preliminary  Conclusions:  The U.S.  Government states it has no 
     evidence  that  POWs  were  left behind  in  Southeast  Asia.  The 
     official  policy  asserts that it is open to investigation of  all 
     reports.  For  example,  the official Department of Defense  (DOD) 
     POW-MIA Fact Book, issued July, 1990, states:
         Although  we  have  thus  far been unable  to  prove  that 
         Americans  are  still  detained against  their  will,  the 
         information  available  to  us precludes ruling  out  that 
         possibility.  Actions to investigate live sighting reports 
         receive  and  will continue to receive necessary  priority 
         and  resources based on the assumption that at least  some 
         Americans are still held captive.  Should any report prove 
         true, we will take appropriate action to ensure the return 
         of those involved.
       Notwithstanding  this  professed openness to new  evidence,  the 
     U.S.  Government has insisted since April 12,  1973 that it has no 
     evidence  of  living  POWs.  In  fact,  on that  date  --  at  the 
     conclusion of OPERATION HOMECOMING, which brought home 591 POWs.
       --  Dr.  Roger  Shields,  then  Assistant Secretary of  Defense, 
     stated  that the DOD had "no evidence that there wee any more POWs 
     still alive in all of Indochina."
       This assertion has been consistent. For example, last July, Col. 
     Joseph  A.  Schlatter,  then  chief  of the  Defense  Intelligence 
     Agency's Special Office for POW/MIAs,  was saying that "If we look 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page  9
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     at  everything  we collected during the war and  everything  we've 
     collected since the war, we don't find any evidence that Americans 
     are captive."
       Furthermore,  as late as October,  1990 an unnamed "senior State 
     Department  official"  was quoted in the press as saying the  U.S. 
     Government  has  "no  evidence"  of living American  prisoners  in 
     Southeast Asia.
     
       However,  to say that the U.S.  Government has "no evidence"  is 
     not the same as saying that no evidence exists.  After all,  there 
     have  been  nearly  11,700 reports relating to POW/MIAs  over  the 
     years,  including  1,400 first-hand,  live-sighting  reports.  The 
     question  is  whether  every single one of these  reports  can  be 
     dismissed from the category of credible evidence.
       The  U.S.  Government position makes sense only if every  single 
     one  of  these  reports  can be shown  to  have  been  fabricated, 
     erroneous,  or not relating directly to a POW/MIA --  for example, 
     some  reports may relate to Europeans in the area.  In  fact,  DIA 
     analysts  have rejected the evidence of all these reports,  except 
     for  a small pool of less than 150 still considered  "unresolved." 
     The  preliminary  conclusions  presented by staff  for  review  by 
     Senators are as follows:
       1.  After the conclusion of OPERATION HOMECOMING in April,  1973 
     brought  the  return of the 591  POWs,  official  U.S.  Government 
     policy  internally adopted and acted upon the presumption that all 
     other   POWs  were  dead,   despite  public  assertions  that  the 
     government  was  still  open to investigating the  possibility  of 
     discovering the existence of living prisoners.
       2.  Following the adoption of an internal policy in April,  1973 
     that all POW/MIAs were presumed dead, the U.S. Government convened 
     commissions  in each military service to consider each case on the 
     POW/MIA   list  in  order  to  make  a  statutory  declaration  of 
     presumption of death.
       3. While there is no reason to believe that the majority, if not 
     most,  of  the  declarations of presumptive death  are  incorrect, 
     staff  review  of  live-sighting  report  files  at  DIA  found  a 
     disturbing   pattern  of  arbitrary  rejection  of  evidence  that 
     connected  a  sighting or to specific POW/MIA or U.S.  POW/MIA  in 
     general.
       4.  The pattern of arbitrary rejection resulted in a declaration 
     of  presumptive  finding of death for every such individual  case, 
     except one.
       5.  The  internal  policy that all POW/MIAs were  presumed  dead 
     resulted in an emphasis on finding and identifying remains of dead 
     personnel, rather than searching for living POW/MIAs.
       6. The desire to identify specific sets of remains with specific 
     names  on  the  POW/MIA  list led DOD to an  exaggeration  of  the 
     capabilities  of  forensic science,  and identification  based  on 
     dubious  presumptions and illogical deductions rather than  actual 
     physical  identification --  a process which resulted in  numerous 
     misidentifications of remains.
       7.  Despite adherence to internal policies and public statements 
     after April, 1973 that "no evidence"  existed of living POWs,  DIA 
     authoritatively  concluded  as late as April,  1974  that  several 
     hundred living POW/MIAs were still held captive in Southeast Asia.
       8.  Although  the  Pathet  Lao declared on April  3,  1973  that 
     Laotian  Communist  forces  were holding American  POWs  and  were 
     prepared  to give an accounting,  nine days later a DOD  spokesman 
     declared  that  there were no more American prisoners anywhere  in 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page 10
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     Southeast Asia. No POWs held by Laotian Communist forces were ever 
     returned.   The   evidence  indicates  that  American   government 
     officials  made a decision to abandon U.S.  citizens still in  the 
     custody  of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam,  Laos and Cambodia, 
     at the conclusion of U.S. involvement in the Second Indochina War.
       9.  U.S.  casualties,  to  include  POW/MIAs in Southeast  Asia, 
     resulting  from  covert  or cross border  operation,  may  not  be 
     included on the list of those missing.
       10.  The  executive branch has failed to address adequately  the 
     concerns of the family members of the POW/MIAs, and has profoundly 
     mishandled the POW/MIA problem.
       
       Definition  of  POW/MIA:  The subject of POW/MIAs requires  some 
     definitions. After the Second Indochina War --  popularly known as 
     the Vietnam War,  even though Thailand,  Burma,  Laos and Cambodia 
     saw U.S. combat action -- hundreds of POWs returned alive, notably 
     in OPERATION HOMECOMING, which concluded in April, 1973. Those who 
     did  not  return home are classified by the Department of  Defense 
     into two categories: POW/MIAs -- that is,  those for whom there is 
     some  documentation that they were captured but never repatriated; 
     and  KIA/BNRs --  that is,  those believed to have been killed  in 
     action, but whose bodies were not recovered. For the latter, there 
     is  no  evidence  of their death except DOD's  evaluation  of  the 
     circumstances,  even  though no physical evidence of death may  be 
     available.
       In  April,   1973,   DOD  reported  that  2,383  personnel  were 
     unaccounted for:  1,259 POW/MIAs,  and 1,124 KIA/BNRs.  This study 
     assumes  that  both  categories  of the  unaccounted  for  deserve 
     review.  Since  1973,  DOD has announced the return of 280 sets of 
     remains,  diminishing  the  over-all  number by  that  amount.  In 
     addition,  there  could  well  be  an  equal  number  of  military 
     personnel  missing  in  action from various  U.S.  covert  actions 
     during  the war.  Since DOD files on covert actions have not  been 
     opened,  and  the  participants  in such  actions  never  publicly 
     identified, this inquiry could not establish any number for covert 
     POW/MIAs.  However,   public  source  books  and  interviews  with 
     participants  suggest  that the issue of covert operations adds  a 
     substantial, but unknown,  dimension to the MIA question which has 
     received no scrutiny.
       Review  of Live-Sighting Documents:  In this inquiry,  staff has 
     reviewed hundreds of U.S. Government classified, declassified, and 
     open-source documents. In addition, Senator Grassley and Committee 
     Minority staff were given access to, and have reviewed personally, 
     hundreds   of   classified  live-sighting  reports  (accounts   by 
     Southeast  Asians of live POWs in Southeast Asia)  in the files of 
     the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).  According to DIA,  this is 
     the  first time that either a United States Senator or any  United 
     States Congressional Committee staff have been given access to the 
     raw intelligence contained in the 1,400 live sighting reports.
       Out of the 1,400 live-sighting reports,  approximately 1,200 are 
     considered  by  DIA  to  be  "resolved."  Each  of  the  so-called 
     "resolved"  sightings  was  resolved by concluding that  the  live 
     sighting  report did not pertain to U.S.  POWs present after April 
     1979. Staff felt that in some cases such a conclusion was correct, 
     but that in many it was not supported by the facts. Staff began by 
     first  examining  so-called resolved cases in order to  study  DIA 
     methodology  by  which a conclusion of "resolution"  was  reached. 
     Since  the  quidelines  set by DIA for access to  the  files  were 
     extremely  restrictive,  the time available allowed review of only 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page 11
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

     about one-quarter of the so-called "resolved"  cases,  and none of 
     those  in  the  category  of  "unresolved."  Nevertheless,   staff 
     concluded  that  a  significant number  of  the  "resolved"  cases 
     reviewed  showed that the DIA methodology was faulty,  or that the 
     evidence did not support the DIA conclusion in the case, or both.
       The  information  collected  and reviewed to date by  the  staff 
     shows  that  the position held by the United States Government  -- 
     namely,  that  no  evidence exists that Americans are still  being 
     held  against  their will --  cannot  be  supported.  Rather,  the 
     information   uncovered   during  this  inquiry  provides   enough 
     corroboration  to  cast  doubt  upon  the  veracity  of  the  U.S. 
     Government's conclusion.
       
       Without  revealing classified information,  staff believes  that 
     the review of the classified live-sighting reports reinforces that 
     doubt.  Although  more  information remains to  be  reviewed,  the 
     evidence this inquiry has thus far uncovered shows that:
       1)  living U.S.  citizens,  military and civilian,  were held in 
     Southeast  Asia  against their will after  the  U.S.  Government's 
     statement on April 13, 1973 that no prisoners remained alive; and
       2)  the  information available to the U.S.  Government does  not 
     rule  out the probability that U.S.  citizens are still being held 
     in Southeast Asia.
       In fact,  classified,  declassified and unclassified information 
     all confirm one startling fact: That DOD in April,  1974 concluded 
     beyond  a doubt that several hundred living American POWs remained 
     in  captivity  in Southeast Asia.  This was a full year after  DOD 
     spokesmen  were saying publicly that no prisoners remained  alive. 
     Evidence  uncovered in the several hundred cases reviewed thus far 
     clearly  demonstrates that,  in a disturbing number of cases,  DOD 
     made significant errors in drawing conclusions about live sighting 
     reports, the presumed deaths of individuals,  or about individuals 
     that  were unaccounted for at the conclusion of the war.  Although 
     many  cases  were resolved correctly based upon the  files,  there 
     were  too  many errors apparent to rule out the need to  undertake 
     and  complete  the review of the "unresolved"  cases.  Staff  also 
     concluded  that  DOD  spent  an  excessive  amount  of  effort  in 
     discrediting   live-sighting   reports,   while  exaggerating   or 
     mishandling  forensic  data  in  order to  confirm  a  presumptive 
     finding  of  death.  DOD appeared to be more anxious to declare  a 
     presumptive  finding  of  death than in following  up  reports  of 
     sightings with creative investigative work.
       Furthermore,  there  is evidence of insensitivity on the part of 
     the Executive Branch of the U.S.  Government in providing complete 
     and  accurate  information to the next-of-kin of missing  American 
     servicemen.
       The classified evidence in DIA files suggests a pattern by a few 
     U.S. Government officials of misleading Congressional inquiries by 
     concealing  information,  and misinterpreting or manipulating data 
     in  government files.   Interested Senators and staff with  proper 
     clearances  no  doubt  will want to review  the  classified  files 
     themselves and draw their own conclusions.
       The  1973  Policy Decision:  Those who have not dealt  with  the 
     POW/MIA  issue  may  find  it difficult to  understand  how  DOD's 
     analysis  of  the information could be  in  error.  Unfortunately, 
     staff  believes that DOD has allowed its procedures to be dictated 
     by a pre-conceived policy finding.
       The New York Times reported on April 12, 1973 as follows:
       WASHINGTON, April 12 (AP) -- The Pentagon,  two months after the 
     
     NAM VET Newsletter                                        Page 12
     Volume  4, Number 11                           November 10, 1990

       first  American prisoners of war began coming home,  said  today 
       that it had no evidence that there were any more prisoners still 
       alive in all of Indochina.
     
       Despite  the  fact that interviews with all returning  prisoners 
     are nearly complete, a Pentagon official, Dr. Roger Shields,  said 
     that  none  of  the  1,389 Americans listed as  missing  were  now 
     technically  considered prisoners.  "We have no indication at this 
     time that there are any Americans missing alive in Indochina," Dr. 
     Shields said at a news conference.
       Dr. Shields was at that time Assistant Secretary of Defense, but 
     he was following guidance issued on that date by the Department of 
     State  in a memorandum to DOD which stated that "There are no more 
     prisoners  in Southeast Asia.  They are all dead."  This directive 
     was  issued  immediately  after  the return of the  last  POWs  in 
     OPERATION HOMECOMING.  This finding was made despite that the fact 
     that none of the hundreds of POW/MIAs that the Pathet Lao publicly 
     acknowledged  holding  were ever returned from  Laos.  There  were 
     hundreds  of live-sighting reports on file in 1973.  Thousands  of 
     such reports have continued to be received since then.
       Process  for  "Presumption  of Death":  Since  it  was  official 
     policy,  then,  that all MIAs were dead,  it became a bureaucratic 
     necessity for all "unresolved"  cases to be resolved in favor of a 
     presumed finding of death.
       Each  respective military service from time to time convenes its 
     own  special commissions to pronounce on individual cases.  Such a 
     commission has before it at least three categories of information: 
     The  first  is  intelligence-related  information  concerning  the 
-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #