HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:16:33 EDT
From:         MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU

Folks:

              Thought you all would like to know that Felix Guattari,
              age 62, died of a heart attack 9/2/92.



                                                              mer
From: USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET (Bill Condon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Comments and Conferences
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:49:46 GMT
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Gosh, I really feel like the little rich kid on this one.  I'd been mostly
skimming the commenting/conferencing stuff when I thought at least I ought
to poke my head in the door and announce that at least one university
has made the investment needed to assure that at least its most needy
writers get a lot of faculty contact.  Our Writing Practica are limited
to 16 students, each of whom has a half-hour individual conference PER
WEEK with the instructor, who in 80% of the cases is full-time faculty,
The conferences give us time to be interested in the students' ideas,
in the students as writers.  And they respond to this interest well.
They are all in the course because they didn't do well on the pre-test
(50-minute direct test of writing), and fewer than 25 (out of 600-700)
in a typical fall term have to repeat the course after the post-test
(portfolio-based assessment).

I want to chime in with agreement that written comments do little good.
I can remember several CCCC papers over the last ten years that
reported that only about 10% of students even READ the comments, unless
the teacher does something extraordinary, like withholding grades until
semester's end or requiring students to write comments back to the teacher.
Our recent Director, Deborah Keller-Cohen, surveyed her students and
 found that they read comments only when the grade is far better or
far worse than they had expected.  Otherwise, they just take the grade
and run.

Someone here on MBU said it best--If you want to see what's wrong wityh
the teaching of writing, just look in the margins of students' papers.
I liked that comment, and it really made me appreciate the fact that I
haven't had to write in a margin in five years.

I'm not gloating, really (well, not much anyway), but I am happy to be
teaching at a university that has decided that an investment like this
is desireable.

Bill Condon
userlcbk@umichum
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:46:04 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring r

the day when you are hopelessly naive is yet a long way off, John.  The
key, on which you have put your fingers, is "when they're convinced that
the questions are real...for the instructor".  So we make the class reality,
and we invent real life situations for which there are real life out;comes,
not exercises.
Now that's a real challenge.
Myles
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:05:01 -0400
From:         irwin@CARR.YORKU.CA
Subject:      Using NeXT computers

The session was given by Susan Belasco-Smith on NeXTS in Indy.
NeXTMail, an application that comes with all NeXTs, allows voice input
for any mail you send, and as long as the receiver has NeXTMail, they
click on to the lips and hear the message.  With the monochrome Turbo
NeXTs we have here you don't need a microphone (has a little
input/output device in its monitor); for the colour Turbos you have a
voice box.  As for memory, we'll have to see what they can handle.  We
are working with machines that have 16 MB RAM anf 250 MB harddrives.

Btw, WordPerfect for the NeXT has a nice commenting feature using
captions like in the cartoons.

						Ron
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Snail Mail Address:
Ronald R. Irwin           		Graduate Program in Psychology
irwin@writer.yorku.ca			Behavioural Sciences Bldg., 306B,
(416) 250-7188           		York University,
Computer-Assisted Writing Centre	4700 Keele St., North York,
Department of Psychology		Ontario, Canada, M3J 1P3.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:09:13 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: comments

I like broad generalizations as much as the next person, but, but, but:
some students respond immediately to written and oral comments and
errors or problems disappear forever; some students have to be rapped on
the knuckles befor e they notice anything; some students change.

If writing comments on their papers doesn't help, if taping comments they
listen to doesn't help, why bother to read their papers at all?  Have
them simply write 10 pages a day, every day, for six months and see if
they "develope"
[sp error.  please improve.] or whatever?  Or have we just not figured out
how what we do works.  Or don't it work?
The freshman year I want to see is one where nobody takes courses but they
just live in the dorms.  At the end of the year we give them a final exam
in living.
Myles
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:31:49 ADT
Comments:     <28AUG92.17887355.0057.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: literacy, orality, & NeXT

Wes: A lot of what I said about taped oral comments in that _College
English_ article has been rendered obsolete by new technology.  But
the conclusion still seems to me worth thinking about.  Here's part
of it:

     . . . here, as in so many other aspects of communication, the
     medium is at least part of the message and may be all of it.  And
     the message contained in this particular medium is distinctly this
     one: 'Written language is cumbersome, difficult, mechanically time-
     consuming and hopelessly limited.  Given a choice between writing
     and dictating, I, a teacher of writing, choose to employ the
     resources of the spoken word as opposed to the written one.'
          It seems to me the only reasonable response to such a message
     is to refuse to take seriously the practice of the written word,
     which is clearly on the way out. . . . I am, in fact, waiting to
     hear what I will have to say when a student asks to submit his
     papers on cassette in the first place.

     "Technological Gift-Horse: Some Reflections on the Teeth of
          Cassette-Marking."  _College English_ 36:5 (January
          1975), 585.

     I'm not as happy with the tone of that as I was 17 years ago, but
I'm not sure I still don't believe it.  I still think we need to find
ways to use writing to do things we often think can only be done orally,
as well as the things we know can ONLY be done with writing.  And, if we
are in a position to make choices, we need to be stressing the power
rather than the limits of the written word.  (Do your students, like
mine, look at class handouts and then wait to be told what they say?)

                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)    Development Officer
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:28:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: comments

I agree with you that the students who are most likely to pay attention to
our comments--written or oral--are the ones who don't really need our
help and are going to learn anyway; and it certainly seems that many
of those who do need our help "throw the comments away as a featureless
defeat," which I interpret as your description of a psychological reaction
to the comments.  Your suggestion of having students write to and for each other
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:39:43 -0500
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From:         TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      EnfiLOG List; 2nd posting

We've received a number of requests from people to add their names to
our mailing list (usmail) for our free quarterly newsletter about
network-based writing classrooms (ENFI).  This was in response to the
posting I made earlier this week on MBU.  I had expected that we would
already have most MBU people on our list, but find that not to be true
so far.  So, if you want to receive a ***brilliantly written*** informative
and brief newsletter about teaching in a networked writing classroom,
send me personal email either to twbatson@gallua.bitnet or
twbatson@gallux.gallaudet.edu WITH YOUR USMAIL ADDRESS.

This is a re-issue of a newsletter that was distributed regularly from
1985 to 1989; the first new issue is in the mail as of today.

Thanks,

Trent Batson
ENFI Project
Gallaudet University
Wash. DC
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:50:14 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring r

I dunno that "reality" has to enter into this; I've seen students get engaged
with things that they and the instructor knew had no immediate bearing on day
to day life and no clearly evident bearing on whatever long-term goals most of
them had (I'm thinking of 20th century poetry...).  Students seem to me for
the most part willing to talk seriously and energetically about open-ended
questions, particularly when they're convinced that the questions are real
ones for the instructor, too, things for which the instructor has no better
answers than they do and about which the instructor clearly wants to talk and
"hear" other people's ideas.  This works especially well in the networked
classroom where I use InterChange; it works well in traditional classrooms,
too, though it's a little harder there to persuade students that you really
want to hear them-- if only because it's harder to create the space in which
everyone can talk and be heard.

Is this a hopelessly naive position?

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:15:42 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: comments

Russell:  OK, they need an audience -- each other, us, somebody else (other-
wise known as writing across the curriculum [as opposed to scribbling
across it]).  What kind of audience reaction will helpl their writing change?
Criticism? Approval of the good parts only?  Love for all of them?
And isn't a research paper on which something depends (a grade) a situation
in whichthey have to find out something and explain it?  Or is that too
artificial?
I wish I had thought of these questions years ago.
Myles
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 11:24:13 ADT
Comments:     <23AUG92.12348391.0032.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      kids

     Fred Kemp's comments about the changing character of
students made some good points.  But it seems to me Clinton's
statistic that "45% of high school graduates never try to go to
college, and 70% of high school graduates never graduate from a
four-year institution"  doesn't obviously lead to his conclusion
that "we should redefine a vocational track for such students so
that if they don't move eagerly into a liberal arts program they
will not be cut adrift from society's obligation to provide
opportunities for training."
     It's just as true now as it was in the past that such a
solution lets "bureaucrats [or somebody] sort of pick and choose
who gets to be upper and who lower class."  Seems to me our
problem is the continuing notion that education is something that
comes first, something you get out of the way and then get on
with "real life."  I too "agree with David that it just doesn't
seem intelligent to assume everybody should or wants to undergo a
liberal arts education," but it strikes me that we ought to be
able to find ways to keep everybody's options open -- for
technical training and for courses in medieval art, whatever,
whenever.  People might change their minds, at 30, or 50, or even
70.  It's obviously not happpening at Texas Tech (or my
institution), where "Most of our kids are exactly that, 'kids,'
19-21 years old, white, polite, vocationally oriented (the idea
of learning for learning's sake tends to get snickers)."
     The traditional industrial product model of education
suggests that those 'kids' have made, or are making, at 19, a
decision about what they'll do and who they'll be for the rest of
their lives.  You can't take a Datsun halfway down the line and
make it into a lawn mower.  But people aren't like that . . .
unless an inflexible education system does it to them.  I think
our main problem is finding ways to make those 19-year old,
uninformed and immature career decisions revocable.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)    Development Officer
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:55:30 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      measuring change

>What do you think characterizes female development, making it differ
>from male development?

Let me jump in with both ugly feet.  In terms of critical thinking and
communicating, women (some) seem to have a more carefully developed sense
of the social, the community, an awareness of the "Other" that I have
always admired.  Those qualities are not often taken into account when
characterizing how one has developed.  Does Perry, of whom I am totally
ignorant (unfortunately), allow for different developmental goals and
objectives?


>But can we
>think about some overall picture of where a student might be at, or
>are they truly multiple, developing the same basic trajectory but over
>different paths, and none of these paths predictive of any others?
>
>						Ron


I'm not sure what you mean here, Ron, but students are nothing if not
multiple, possibly moving toward some basic trajectory.  Those
clear-trajectory types are the ones we are best at testing, rewarding,
graduating, . . .

Does "none of these paths predictive of any others?" refer to paths within
the same person, the "truly multiple" above, and are you questioning
whether these paths a totally unpredicable?

I just got out of a large meeting where all I did was ask for clarification
and make obnoxious suggestions.  Can you tell?

Confused as usual.
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:25:42 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring real life to Lit classes (7)

Myles,
   Not a bad idea--asking the kids to show us how to get into "real life."
They've told me often enough: "Get real, Jim!"  As academics, have we stopped
being real?  Seriously, I'll try it tomorrow in my 8:00 class.  I'll ask them
if I'm real.  If not, what do I have to do?
   I look at my students, especially the 18 and 19 year olds, and I wonder if
I really know who they are.  I seem to be in tune with the older students who
share my work ethic, but the younger ones?
   My oldest daughter completed her BA last fall.  We get along fine, I
think, and we seem to communicate.  But I wonder if we "really" know each
other.
   I never thought I'd become part of the system, the over-thirty who've lost
touch with the things that really matter.

Jim
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:24:12 -0500
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From:         TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      EnfiLOG Reborn

We are in the process of sending out the first issue of the EnfiLOG since
1989.  This is a free quarterly with news about ENFI (this time, mostly
about our work, but we will be including news about other ENFI work in the
coming issues).  We've updated our mailing list over the past 6 months
(we have 2,700 names right now), but I'm sure we don't have a number of
people who may have become interested in ENFI or in network-based classrooms
in the past few years.  If you want to receive the EnfiLOG, please email
me *personally* at <twbatson@gallua.bitnet> or <twbatson@gallux.gallaudet.edu>
or call John Scully at 202-651-5494.

We also are collecting news for the next EnfiLOG, which will be coming out
at the end of the fall semester, so send me whatever you would like published,
including brief news items regarding network-based classroom use on your
campus, short pieces on new approaches or ideas, reports on research, queries
and so on.  You can send this electronically, to the same address as above,
or to Trent Batson, ENFI Project, HMB E230, Gallaudet University,
800 Florida Av. NE, Washington, DC 20002.

 Thanks,

Trent Batson
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:22:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      yea Jim and Eric!

Yea for Jim Porter and Eric Crump.  It takes guts to stand up in
front of humanists and say, "My Name is Fred Kemp and I don't
believe that Face-To-Face is all it is claimed to be."  Fred, TTU
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:54:32 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Ice T and Murphy Brown

Don langham: I don't understand your discussion of differing responses to
Murphy Brown and Ice T as an explanation of why it would be OK for us to teach
Murphy Brown in a university classroom but not OK to teach Ice T.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:41:21 CDT
From:         dene grigar <ACA102@UTDALLAS.BITNET>
Subject:      resubscribe

Due to a glitch in our university e-mail system, I lost access to my mbu-l
net.  Please resubscribe me, or advise me on renewal procedures.

Dene Grigar
aca102@utdallas, bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:19:12 EDT
From:         Mary Alm <T270102@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: essential writing books

I'll be one to recommend the Elbow book--How about _A Community of Writers_
by Elbow and Belanoff.  ESPECIALLY the little _Sharing and Responding_ text
which accompanies it.
                       --Mary at Univ. of S.C.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:05:03 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: On-line collaborative lit?
              2 Sep 1992 14:53:32 EDT from <dsew@TROI.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU>

Dave:
              Do you know about Don Byrd's Awopbopaloobop Groupuscle?
              It's an avant-garde collaborative writing group.
              Sounds like something that might fit your frame.

              Let me know if you need his address.

              Are you in Tuscon now?
                                               best......mer
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:00:52 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: measuring change

Wini-- I hadn't made the leap/link to hypertext, but yes, that might well
work.  What I was thinking of were some essays(including Lyotard's Postmodern
Condition) which argue that the kind of "master narratives" (e.g., of human
Progress) that characterized  19th-c. historiography and 19th-c. science and
much of 20th c. writing as well have broken down, splintered into a
multiplicity of small, local narratives whose relations to one another are
highly complex, describable perhaps in fractal-like terms rather than as
coherent narratives inw hich  evrything finally lines up more or less neatly
and ranges itself before the understanding.  Hypertext would indeed be an
interesting and powerful way to explore those multiple "lines" of development,
I think.  Hmmm/

John S
UT Austin
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 17:04:50 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: measuring change

Ron:  Please continue.  Myles
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:10:17 -0400
From:         WENDY <WARREN@EDINBORO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: F2F

Ron,
Susan Smith at Allegheny College in Northwestern PA has been using NeXT
computers with her writing students and with the program LipService that you
are talking about. You might want to contact her; I'm pretty sure she has
email (well, positive, actually), but can't quite remember her e-address.
Susan Smith, are you out there? Anyway, those are the coolest machines. Enjoy.
Wendy Warren
warren@edinboro.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:52:04 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: measuring change

I'm in over my head on this discussion, since I don't know the literature Ron
and Wini and others are discussing.  But the discussion about grand
developmental narratives (narratives being my word, not theirs) struck a
chord, reminding me both of Lyotard in _The Postmodern Condition_ and of
various people collected in N. Katherine Hayles (ed.) _Chaos and Order_
(1991), who argue that there can be no such comprehensive narratives but only
local ones which interact in cmoplex and problematically non-linear ways.
Where to take *that* I don't know; just trying to stir up trouble, I guess--
it's an interesting issue for lots of reasons.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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