HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rmillar@cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Roy Millar)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Rarely
Distribution: canada
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:53:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.130314.2201@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>
  dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley) writes:

>........................................................By way of 
>comparison, I am currently finishing my PhD in theoretical physics
>and as soon as I am done, I will be looking for a job in software
>because there are NO jobs in physics.  Part of the problem with cs
>jobs is that there are a lot of people like me around who slop over
>from other fields to pollute your job market.


I believe that most of the jobs are going to be for people who have
degrees in something else, but also know their way around a computer.

Discount prices for PCs and the like have now reached the point where
they are comparable to the price you would pay for a good circular
saw.
Software prices aren't much different.
This cannot help but change the way people regard computers. They are
now just tools, and (except for the large companies in the mass
market - Microsoft et. al.) what is wanted is someone who knows how to
use the tool for medical/accounting/astronomical/etc. purposes.

Or at least that is my rationalisation for the fact that I can't even
get interviews despite having worked on minis and mainframes for about
25 years. (Being 54 and not possessing a degree in anything doesn't
help, of course, but it still seems to me that the entire nature of
the business has changed).


-- 
                      | He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Roy Millar            | Without the least vestige of land,
                      | And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
                      | A map they could all understand.  - L. Carroll.
Xref: sparky can.general:2109 can.jobs:157 ont.general:686 ont.jobs:130
From: echrzano@watmath.waterloo.edu (Edward Chrzanowski MFCF)
Newsgroups: acadia.cs.chat,can.general,can.jobs,ont.general,ont.jobs,comp.jobs
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:37:05 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <1992Apr9.204810.16255@den.mmc.com> norman@possum.den.mmc.com (Steve Norman) writes:
>Felt I ought to add my two cents worth (American):
>
>I Co-Op'd for two years at the US NIST (National Institude of Standards
>and Technology). This experience was invaluable and has given me a big
>advantage over my peers ever since. WHY? I learned that to succeed in
>the computer world, you had better understand as many facets of the 
>field as possible - networking, operating systems, database mgmt,
>programming languages, software engineering, user interface 
>technologies, basic principles of the hardware. What does this give
>you? FLEXIBILITY! In my experience, corporations do not what a 
>button-hole fit for any specific job. They want someone with good
>QUALITIEs as well as good capabilities. Qualities like initiative, 
>dependability, honesty, and ability to work with many different
>types of people. 
>
>Now this is a lot to ask of anyone. In fact, in my experience most
>people do not even come close. I have worked with (and for) way
>too many marginal people in my career. But that is the real world
>we live in. New graduates face a tough challenge - instead of being
>looked at as bringing fresh thoughts, innovation, etc - they are
>viewed as being cheap labor that will require a lot of EXPENSIVE
>hand-holding by existing more Senior staff. This view is really
>stupid and short-sighted if you ask me. After all, everyone was
>new at one point or another.
>
>So my advice to new graduates - learn as much as you can about
>as much as you can, hone your people skills, accept criticisms
>willingly, and maintain your self confidence. If you are a GOOD
>person, people will eventually recognize you as good and place
>their trust and faith in your professional views. 
>
>Enough pontificating...
>
>========================================================================
>Steve Norman                  +             Disclaimer:
>Sr. Software Engineer         +   All views are those of the Author.
>Martin Marietta Astronautics  +        Feel free to disagree.
>Denver, Colorado, USA         +      After all, this is the USA.
>========================================================================


I have to agree.  I found a quote from a Heinlein book that I think is
appropriate to this line of thought and have tried to follow its philosphy.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

Specialization is for insects.

Lazarus Long
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY)
Subject: Re: A really nice, fuzzy love letter for Sylvain et al. ...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 06:53:02 GMT

In article <29EC51DA.588D@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.052142.14128@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
>	schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) writes:
>
>>If I find that most TROCians feel the same way as your man, well
>>I may change my opinion about Quebec separation.
>>
>>Still, if I keep seeing Diane Francises and other dinosaurs like Getty,
>>it won't help.
>
>For every Getty there is a Lucien Bouchard.
>For every Diane Francis there is a Lise Bissonette.
>For every APEC there is an OLF.
>For every ranting federalist there is a ranting Quebec nationalist.
>I only wish I had a sealed room big enough in which to lock them all away.

Hahaha!!    Point taken...    1-0 Evan...

BTW, what's the OLF??? Never heard of that. 

>You're going to have to look deeper than these icons of Canadian
>intolerance, just like people ouside Quebec have to learn to look beyond
>the icons of Quebec intolerance. It's worth the effort.

It's a wise advice.

> Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
>         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
>              If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

Sylvain Chamberland
Dept. of Biology
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario.

P.S. BTW, I heard about ".sig" files...  I know it has nothing to do
     with can.politics, but is there somebody who could e-mail me
     some hints about that?  I'm guessing it's a kind of "macro"
     to display e.g. my name and address...
     I'm too lazy to try to find the documentation for the "rn" reader...

Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: "Hendrik Radon" <hra@sunnyboy.informatik.tu-chemnitz.de>
Subject: Practical training in informatics in canada
Followup-To: hra@sunnyboy.informatik.tu-chemnitz.de
Originator: davecb@nexus.yorku.ca
Keywords: forwarded request
Organization: University of Technology Chemnitz
Distribution: can
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:38:12 GMT

Dear Madams and dear Sirs,

  let me introduce myself. My name is Hendrik Radon. I am a
student from Eastern Germany. I have been studying informa-
tics at the University of Technology Chemnitz for two and a
half years. I want to do some practical training in Canada.
That's why I want to ask you for a possibility to work in 
the field of informatics. I am interested in many parts of
informatics, like application programming, networking, ope-
rating systems ... 
If you can help me with some hints or information , please
send me. My Internet adress is :

hra@sunnyboy.informatik.tu-chemnitz.de

I would be very glad to receive some mail.

                    I am, 
                          Yours truly,
                                       Hendrik Radon

PS : If you know somebody, who can help me, please send me
     his/her internet adress or his/her post adress.
-- 
David Collier-Brown,  | davecb@Nexus.YorkU.CA | lethe!dave
72 Abitibi Ave.,      | 
Willowdale, Ontario,  | He's so smart he's dumb.
CANADA. 416-223-8968  |     -- Joyce Collier-Brown
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins)
Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 21:15:16 GMT

To Noah Lermer:
Ironically, the ethnic nation that you consign to the french
is contrary to the national concept of the French Revolution;
and the political nation (of citizens) that you describe as 
english IS the French revolutionary idea of nation.
I don't think COUNTRY is quite the same thing. It is more of
a geographic, than political concept. In some senses though,
country is closer to the French Revolutionary idea, in that
it does not consider ethnicity as a fundamental constituent of
nations.

Frank.
I really do recommend that people read Nations and Nationality, from 1780,
by Hobsbawm, available in penguin books i think.
Xref: sparky can.general:2161 can.jobs:178
From: wales@valeria.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales)
Newsgroups: can.general,can.jobs
Subject: PhD and CS jobs (was Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:55:48 GMT
Reply-To: wales@CS.UCLA.EDU (Rich Wales)
Organization: UCLA CS Department, Los Angeles

To branch off a bit from the discussion so far on CS jobs, how important
do Canadian employers feel it is for a CS professional to have a Ph.D.,
as opposed to a master's degree and several years' experience?

I'm not talking about university professor jobs (for which one clearly
needs a Ph.D. in order to receive any serious consideration).  I'm
thinking here in terms of programmer/analyst or consultant careers.

--
Rich Wales <wales@CS.UCLA.EDU> // UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596 // +1 (310) 825-5683
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: bjr@csr.UVic.CA (Brian Ross)
Subject: Re: A really nice, fuzzy love letter for Sylvain et al. ...
Reply-To: bjr@csr.UVic.CA (Brian Ross)
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, U of Victoria, Canada
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 16:26:34 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.212617.8080@mdivax1.uucp>, robinson@mdivax1.uucp (Jim Robinson) writes:
>boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris) writes:
>>It was killed not because of anglo hatred, not because quebec was hated, but 
>>because the laws allowed a small group to dissent against what was seen as 
>>an erosion o that groups rights.
>
>It was not killed because of anglo hatred of Quebec and Quebecers. It was
>killed because of exploitable technicalities. But, everything I have read
>indicates that it was killed with the blessing of the majority of people
>in anglophone Canada. However, to reiterate, the rejection of the MLA was
>*not* a rejection of Quebec. It was the rejection of what was considered
>by many to be a flawed accord.

If what you say is true, then Canada is in for a rough ride ahead.
The media is currently saying that Quebec might consider forgoing separation
*if* a Meech Lake-style accord is offered to them.  But if the majority of
anglophone Canada won't agree to this on a referendum, then the consequences
are obvious.  

As far as a dissenting minority controlling the rights of the majority,
the only way I see this happening is if a referendum is NOT used. Without
a referendum, I have no illusions that the politicians will act with the
wishes of the majority in mind. They won't. They rarely do.
-- 
Brian Ross.            		Obligatory Diet Pepsi reference.
bjr@csr.uvic.ca       
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: stevew@tsltor.uucp (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:04:33 GMT

In article <9702@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>.... Quebec is a nation.  If you contest this, you are confused
>(if you think the use of confused here is pejorative, I am sorry,
>but in my limited English, it is close of French confus which is
>accurate here) between a Nation and a Country.

Technically speaking (and I've seen this mistake dangerously repeated to the
detriment of many), Quebec is not a nation.

Quebec is a territory.  The Quebecois are a nation.  The Quebecois nation 
is found in Quebec (exclusively, as it turns out).  Quebec is not a
nation-state because the people who live in Quebec are not all Quebecois:
most anglo-quebecers and many allophones are not welcomed as Quebecois, nor
do they consider themselves Quebecois (both of which are terms of being a
member of a nation).  A nation is simply a group of people with shared
aspirations, values, symbols, culture, and/or history.  That includes such
groups as the Cree, the Innu, the Mohawks, the Quebecois, and, believe it or
not, the anglo-Quebecers,  all of which live in the territory of Quebec.

Many participants in the unity debate (on both sides) have made the grave
mistake of confusing the territory of Quebec with the nation of the Quebecois.
It is a dangerous mistake to make.

By the way, a country is a sovereign territory.  It has nothing to do with
nations (except that many countries are nations).  Sovereignty is kind of
vague, but it's definitions is something like "being recognized as sovereign
by other sovereign territories."

Anyone interested in more detailed definitions should consult relevant
textbooks on political geography and on political democracy (they are available
in both english and french).

_______
Stephen M. Webb

Xref: sparky can.general:2153 ont.general:704 ont.jobs:152 can.jobs:177
Newsgroups: can.general,ont.general,ont.jobs,can.jobs
From: lomas@vis.toronto.edu (Dennis Lomas)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:46:11 GMT

cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca (RICHARD DAVID ASPINALL) writes:

>	I would like to thank everyone who has been responding to this thread,
>it has been very enlightening.

>	On a side issue, would anyone be willing to comment on the self-
>employed market ?  I would be interested in hearing how contracts are bid on,
>how they are awarded, and how are their availabilty advertised ?  Not to be 
>too circumspect, could someone comment on the income potential to this field?
>Also, are there other options or routes for self-employ ?  As you might imagine
>my employment centre has not been very helpful in this particular area.

>	As always, I am grateful for any response, and if anyone would rather
>e-mail comments, I would be happy to post an anonymous summary.

>dave
I would like comment on the previous topic  >--
>Is it even necessary to have a computer science to get a high
management position in a computer implementation area. In fact
do you have to even be able to program.  The reason I raise this
is that I have a friend would after 5-6 years in a large institution
is now in charge of all small sysstem management, maintenance and
aquisition. He actually started in the place as a temp workers doing
word processing. He has a degree but no computer course, no programming
in fact no scientific background. He knows no programming language. Yet
would he does appears to be quite technical. +-----David Aspinall------------+-----------------------------------------+
>|email: cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca |NeXT Step :what windows should have been!|
>|vmail: (416) 604-3473		|OS/2 V2   :what windows should have been!|
>+snail: Apt105 - 2001 Bloor St. W. Toronto, Ontario M6S 1M5 --------------+

Xref: sparky can.general:2105 ont.general:684
From: djlefebvre@rose.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Lefebvre)
Newsgroups: can.general,ont.general
Subject: CHEAP Summer rent in Calgary
Keywords: Calgary, rent, summer, cheap
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:18:33 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: University of Waterloo
Originator: djlefebvre@rose.waterloo.edu

Work term in Calgary? ... 

One room to rent in a two bedroom apartment in downtown Calgary.

Rent :  $670/mo to be split three ways (the master bedroom is big enough for
        two.  There are also enough beds for three people.)

        This includes utilities (incl. cable, but there is no TV).  The 
        building also has a pool, sauna and pool table.

        We pay $50 to the students who are currently in the apartment for the
        furniture, and then when we leave, we rent the place out again and sell
        the furniture.

Location :  825 8th Ave SW

For further information contact: 
Dave Lefebvre:  (519) 746-0754, djlefebvre@descartes.waterloo.edu  OR
Stephen Murray:  (519) 747-2723, spmurray@descartes.waterloo.edu
From: djlefebv@descartes.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Lefebvre)
Newsgroups: can.general,ont.general
Subject: CHEAP Summer rent in Calgary
Distribution: can
Organization: University of Waterloo
Keywords: Calgary, rent, summer, cheap 

Work term in Calgary? ... 

One room to rent in a two bedroom apartment in downtown Calgary.

Rent :  $670/mo to be split three ways (the master bedroom is big enough for
        two.  There are also enough beds for three people.)

        This includes utilities (incl. cable, but there is no TV).  The 
        building also has a pool, sauna and pool table.

        We pay $50 to the students who are currently in the apartment for the
        furniture, and then when we leave, we rent the place out again and sell
        the furniture.

Location :  825 8th Ave SW

For further information contact: 
Dave Lefebvre:  (519) 746-0754, djlefebvre@descartes.waterloo.edu  OR
Stephen Murray:  (519) 747-2723, spmurray@descartes.waterloo.edu
From: skenny@nano.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:52:17 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:

>In article <1992Apr9.110405.29376@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> tony@nexus.yorku.ca (Tony Wallis) writes:
>>
>>Yes.  But what I find kinda sad is the extend to which many people in
>>universities care about what CORPORATIONS want.
>>

>Why are you concerned about this? Universities exist in a society.
>Why should it be sad that an institution would reflect the needs
>of the society which supports it? Are univerities some sort of
>contemplative order divorced from their surroundings? 

Actually I find that there is not enough co-operation or co-ordination
between industry and university/institutions in Canada. I agree with Tom
Gray the two bodies and even gov't must be in tune with the needs of all
parties involved. There is no sense in the University pumping out
graduates that do not fit the needs of industry and conversely the
industry can't complain if they don't make an effort to indicate their
requirements -- it is a two way street. I know in Finland the course set
up in the Naval Arch program are such that people from industry come in
and teach the whole course not just one or two special sessions as they
do here. Co-op programs are one way to intermix the academic and work
requirements.
--
=================================
skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca
St. John's, NF, CANADA
"Have a touton or do without'n !"
Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
From: heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)
Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:26:39 GMT

In article <SBO.92Apr10124351@gunther.vlsi.polymtl.ca> sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:

[...] 
>Make this country Unilingual anglophones so that we won't get Funking
>French on our cereal Box. We will get back the jobs that where stolen from
>us by the Funcking Frogs.
>
>Let's not give 60 Millions to the province of Quebec. They don't deserve
>it. They must first sign a deal. We won't pay for them. After all, it's not
>their money. It's ours. Furthermore, we only get 800 Millions dispite the
>fact that we are less populous. What an outrage.
>
>Let's solve this once and for all. Let's send the army. Let's put those
>damn Frogs back where they belong.
[...]

Stephane ! Il a fallu que je regarde la signature une deuxieme fois
pour verifier que c'etait bien toi qui ecrivait ces mots. Je n'en crois 
pas mes yeux. Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir vu sur ce net les mots
"funcking frog", "frog" et "damn frogs" utilises comme tu l'as fait.
J'espere que tu ne crois pas ce que tu dis - en tant que Quebecois
francophone je trouves ton choix de vocabulaire hostile et insultant.
Pourquoi es-tu le seul sur le net a utiliser un tel vocabulaire ?
Pourquoi es-tu le seul ici a avoir adopte une position aussi extreme ?

Stephane ! I had to read the attribution twice to make sure it was
correct ! I can't believe you're saying this. I think I have never
seen anyone on this net use "funcking frog" and "frog" and "damn frogs"
like this before. I hope you don't mean this - as a French-speaking
Quebecois I find it rather hostile-sounding and insulting.
Why are you the only one here using such vocabulary ? Why are you the
only one here who has taken such an extreme position ?

>  ,                          ,                           ,
>Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
>sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | 
>sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | (514)340-5950

Non, mais .... !

Gerald P Heckman
Universite de Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.

Newsgroups: acadia.cs.chat,can.general,can.jobs,ont.general,ont.jobs,comp.jobs
From: cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca (RICHARD DAVID ASPINALL)
Subject: Re: CS Job Market: What Is The Story?
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:27:27 GMT

In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com writes:
>
>I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
>your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
>*large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.
>
>What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....
>
>Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.
>
>I understand I am probably opening up some flames here. However, I regularly
>see companies looking for network specialists, PC skills, integration 
>skills, etc.
>
>I see fewer companies looking for traditional DP mindsets....
>
>jc
>
>----
>        ____     ___ ___       Jim Carroll, J.A. Carroll Consulting
>          / /\  /   /          Mississauga, Canada   jcarroll@jacc.com
>         / /__\/   /           Voice/Fax             +1.416.274.5605 
>     \__/ /    \___\___        MCI, Bix              JCarroll   
>                               Envoy 100             JA.CARROLL              

	Wait a minute, I was working for a small computer VAR in London
(well not that small) and I was selling PC's (not retail), installing
systems, networks ect...
	Are you saying that I was getting a better education there than
I am at University (BTW I'm learning C, C++ OOP).  Did I make a mistake ?
I don't think so, but if you would like to offer me a job I could
reconsider my position.   :)
	I would like to think that I am getting something of value at U.
and that I will have sellable skills in the near future,  but I look in
the paper and most ads are asking for COBAL, dBase and sometimes Clipper!
The few ads I've seen for C and C++ generally ask for significant experience
	I guess I don't know what to think.

	I would really like to hear from more employers (even if you are
not hiring) about what you think of these issues and any advice you can 
offer.

thanks in advance for replying.

Dave
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     David Aspinall      |  NeXT Step : what windows should have been!	  |
| cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca |  OS/2 V2   : what windows should have been!   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: acadia.cs.chat,can.general,can.jobs,ont.general,ont.jobs,comp.jobs