HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jwp@chem.ucsd.edu (John Pierce)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Net Access
Date: 19 Nov 1992 07:03:13 GMT
Organization: Chemistry Dept, UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: chedccf0.ucsd.edu

jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
 > .... I'm constantly reminded by many from my local chapter that something
 > like 90% or more DO NOT have access to e-mail or Internet in any way ....

jwp@chem.ucsd.edu (John Pierce) writes:
 > In less than six months members in San Diego should have free access to
 > normal Internet mail and Usenet news.....

rr@chem.ucsd.edu (Roxanne Rohmann) writes:
 > ... access is only a small portion of the problem....  *most* people simply
 > aren't computerized...

I remember when uucp barely existed outside Bell Labs, and Usenet didn't
exist; Arpanet access was a wistful dream for most us; 300-baud modems were
the best connectivity most of us had, if we had any at all.  I don't think
John Cooley's and Roxanne's statements will be true in ten years; perhaps
not in five.  As the price of computers, highspeed telephone lines, and
city/state/nation-wide fiber optic nets continue to drop, that access will
become available just like Usenet, Fidonet, et al, became available.  The
18-year olds I see are comfortable with computers; expect to use them; want
and expect access to the net.  It may be true now that most Mensans don't
have computers, have no concept of the benefits of the net, and don't want
either.  That won't be true of the next generation of members.

Personally, I believe/hope that giving local group members access, even though
it's only news and mail, will be perceived as a useful benefit by potential
Mensans in high school and college for whom we, as a group, have little other
attraction.  It will be an even greater attraction when we can provide full
Internet access - ftp, telnet, etc, as well as mail and news; I believe that
will come.  It would be easier under the aegis of "mensa.org", But that seems
to be precluded by the contract with CIS, and without that it is harder for
local groups, or members willing to act on a group's behalf, to arrange for
registration, nameservice, etc.  Harder, but not impossible; it *will* occur.
It's unfortunate that Mensa as an organization chose to be in the train of
that movement rather than the vanguard.  But that was only one of what I feel
have been several shortsighted computer-related  decisions in the last several
years, and it really doesn't matter much.  Lynn Dobbs, and others like him,
will continue to make the results of their money and effort available to other
members; I, and others like me, will continue to scrounge access and services
for other members.  We will do it because we feel that that is the way the
world should *be*; we enjoy the benefits of ready access to the Internet and
we want other Mensans to have them.  And time, technology, and the direction
of society are on our side (for once).

-- John W Pierce, Chemistry, UC San Diego
   jpierce@ucsd.edu
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t: Re: More usefull dialogue about Canadian activities
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:12:19 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov15.001101.15526@ncsu.edu>, scott@bogus.net.address
(Scott Tai) wrote:
> 
> 
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> : Speaking of my "history of flaming," keep in mind that I do not initiate
> : flames; I respond to them in kind.  
> 
> Are you out of your mind?  This Mike Steiner has been posting day in,
> day out - poisoning the readers of rec.org.mensa with lies and pretense -
> that's why I call him morally lost.  I literally feel physically revolted
> when I'm anywhere near his articles.

I'm not surprised, Mr. Bogus.  You have shown an aversion to truth, logic,
and honesty since you first polluted this forum with your presence.  I
usually refrain from personal attacks--unless first attacked:  that's why I
have attacked you.  I can understand your reasons for being so bitter; you
have been on the losing end of your battle of wits with everyone on this
forum--it might help you if you had weapons in that battle, but you
don't--yet you continue to pursue the fight.  I admire your tenacity, but
not your sense.


> Had I been born where laws are less strict, I would treat myself to a
> slow vivisection of him, as an evening's amusement.

Spoken bravely while hiding behind the anonymity of a keyboard and CRT. 
This is yet another example of your cowardice.  This is a good decision on
your part, for should you have actually attempted to harm me physically,
you would have suffered intense physical pain.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Subject: t: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Reply-To: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Organization: /usr/scott
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:01:09 GMT


gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai) writes:
: >And some of the more commonly used tests accepted for Mensa qualification
: >are not intelligence tests at all.
: Actually, if we agree that intelligence has not been defined, none of them
: are.  On the other hand, if we agree that some are "aptititude" or "achievement"
: tests, and some of them are officially labeled as such, we may define 
: intelligence as the achievement resulting from it, or "actualized"
: potential, which also has been previously argued.  Me, I don't care.

But that is precisely the question.  How is one to recognize this
superior intellect?  Standardized tests measure largely arbitrary skills.
  
gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
: What is the result obtained from taking an achievement test?  What
: good is a predictive test that consists of life achievement?

From 'IQ and Intelligence:  What's Wrong with Testing' (Fallows, 1989):
; [...]  Whatever intelligence may be and however it may be 
; distributed, is it really the main factor in determining how far 
; people can go in life?  Unless IQ is an important limit, the entire 
; tracking system makes no sense.  Why start channeling people early 
; if most of them really can handle most jobs?  Why not let them end 
; up where they will, by trial or error, or encourage them to keep 
; starting over?  Why hive people off to trade school if, given a 
; later chance, they could become scientists, doctors, or inventors?

What good is an "IQ" test?

--
Scott Andrew Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Reply-To: edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:45:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.185032.14551@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com
(Michael J. Eager) writes:

>Therefore, your statement that "not-voting alone is the sole cause of the
>organization gaining information" seems to have confused the cause and 
>effect.

The statement that not-voting alone is the sole cause of the
organization gaining information was the conclusion of several other
statements, including the established context that not-voting alone is
the sole act of the subject that causes the information to gain
information -- by not-voting, the subject contributed to a number from
which the organization gained information, and not-voting was the only
thing the subject did to so contribute.  You did not address any of the
statements leading to the conclusion, so your criticism is worthless --
the statements are not in error; the conclusion is true.

> Look closely.  It is neither the people in the sample (your group X) nor
> the people not sampled (your group Y) that did anything.  The information
> was generated by the sampling organization.

Look closely.  Would the organization have obtained the information had
the members of group Y not refrained from voting?  Did the members of
group Y do anything other than not vote that caused the organization to
obtain the information?  The answer is no in both cases.  Remember that
the issue here is what should the decision of the subject be -- the
subject is a person deciding whether or not to vote.  They have no
control over whomever may be sampling people or any expectation of being
sampled.  The subject has the choice of voting or not voting.  By not
voting, they can contribute to the information which you seem to have
agreed an organization can collect.  So, since it is a goal of the
subject to have such information sent, it is an intelligent choice for
the subject not to vote.


                                -- edp (Eric Postpischil)
                                "Always mount a scratch monkey."
                                edp@rusure.enet.dec.com
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:24:04 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov16.161631.6158@walter.cray.com>, sonic@bearpit.cray.com
(Curtis Swanson) wrote:
> 
> In article <mike_steiner-121192120143@192.35.50.131>,
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com 
> (Mike Steiner) writes:
> |>In article <1992Nov11.000940.8619@engage.pko.dec.com>,
> |>moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com wrote:
> 
> |>> In article <mike_steiner-101192125731@192.35.50.131>,
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.
> |>> com (Mike Steiner) writes...
> |>> >That is true; [None of the Above] is on the ballot in Nevada.  IMO,
> it should
> |>> >be on the ballot in every state, for every election. 
> 
> |>> Definitely!
> 
> |>> But what should the proper procedure be if "None of the Above" wins?
> Office
> |>> goes vacant?  A new election with all those on the previous ballot[s]
> |>> ineligible?  Something else?
> 
> |>This has been discussed before (maybe not here, but I think that we had a
> |>go-round on it a year ago).  *My* preference would be that the position
> |>remains vacant until the next scheduled election (which would not
> |>necessarily be at the completion of the ter--at least in the case of
> |>Senator; witness the Feinstein election here in CA for an example), and
> |>that all vacant seats automatically be counted as "no" votes.  In the case
> |>of an executive (e.g., president), all bills presented would automatically
> |>be vetoed, and would require an override to pass.
> 
> |>Anyway, that's my first cut at it.
> 
> Interesting concept.  However, the case of the president (and some other 
> positions as well) there would have to be better coverage.  The president
> does far more than just sign/veto bills.  Other than that, it would certainly
> reduce the growth of government in ways never really dreamt of before......

Yup, the President surely does have more duties than pass or veto bills. 
There would be no executive orders, no cabinet, no judical appointments, no
budget proposal to congress--it would be, mmmm, interesting--to say the
least.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jwp@chem.ucsd.edu (John Pierce)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Special Interest Groups
Date: 17 Nov 1992 07:06:03 GMT
Organization: Chemistry Dept, UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: chedccf0.ucsd.edu

jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
 > 
 > .... I tend to think that creating an additional sub hierarchy below
 > rec.org.mensa will just be creating more needless newsgroups....

I agree with John.  I haven't seen any traffic that would justify separate
groups for sigs.  Let's wait on this until there is at least some sig-type
traffic (I haven't seen any at all, yet).

-- John W Pierce, Chemistry, UC San Diego
   jpierce@ucsd.edu
   LocSec, San Diego Mensa
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: hello
Organization: Cadence Design Systems
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 05:08:45 GMT

In article <corey.0fb6@amiganet.chi.il.us> corey@amiganet.chi.il.us (Corey Sweeney) writes:
>Would someone like to tell me what mensa does?

Argues, talks, drinks, debauches, contemplates, sleeps...

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

What is the difference between a Turing machine and the modern
computer?  It's the same as that between Hillary's ascent of Everest
and the establishment of a Hilton on its peak.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: matt@severian.chi.il.us (Matt Crawford)
Subject: Re: Special Interest Groups
Organization: The Chrome Plated Megaphone of Destiny
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:41:29 GMT

Nico Veenkamp:
> And while we are at it. Why not start an 
> Internet SIG (Special Internet Group :-) that you can join when you have 
> an @ address or are able to post on the 'net?

Excellent.  Call it @SIG.  Let me look for my old paperwork on
starting SIGs ...
__________________________________________________________
Matt Crawford       matt@severian.chi.il.us       Java Man
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:37:17 GMT

I believe there was also an incident some years ago
at either UCLA (Univ. of California, Los Angeles) or
UCB (Univ. of CA, Berkeley) in which a man who had
been a graduate student in the math department for
9 years finally lost it and axed his professor to 
death.  I will try to find out more information 
about this.
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)
"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle                        
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jimt@carson.u.washington.edu (James Thompson)
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:00:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.003856.22944@ncsu.edu> cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA) writes:
>It seems a graduate student killed his advisor after trying in vain for
>many years to complete his PhD dissertation to the latter's satisfaction.

This one is true.  Happened in the mid-80s sometime, at Stanford, I believe.
The killer was Larry Singleton, and he killed his advisor with a hammer.
(I don't recall whether he brought the hammer with him, or it was just handy.)

More interesting, though, was the public outcry at the time of his parole
hearings.

Larry's position, as he stated it to the parole board in response to their
request that he promise never to do anything like this again, went something
like this: (my paraphrasing)

I did a crime.  As a consequence, the state has required me to be incarcerated
for a period of time.  When that time is up, that's the end of it.  Why ask me
to make meaningless promises?  If someone had asked me before all of this to
promise never to kill anyone, I would have said, "of course."  I never thought
I would kill anyone before, and I don't think I ever will again.  Asking me
to make this promise is pointless.

The press, of course, had a field day, predictably missing the point and
paraphrasing Singleton's statement as, "I just might kill again.  So there."

Jim
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:39:13 GMT
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu


From: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Subject: t: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Reply-To: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Organization: /usr/scott
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 11:33:42 EST

scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai) goes into EarlyChristianMartyr mode-

 > Christopher:
 >
 > [...]
 >
 > Tell me yourself what 
 > would give you true happiness and peace of mind.  

I'm not sure...but a Ferrari, my own private yacht and a billion in
gold bars would be nice. 

 > I put myself
 > entirely in your hands

You'll do nothing of the sort. You're a big boy now, and you must 
learn to stand on your own two feet. 

 > and trust to your feeling of what is right. 

Good heavens, it's time someone taught you never to trust strangers.

 > I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and I'll never think ill of Mensa again!

There there, no tears now, big boys don't cry. Be good and I might 
buy you a lollipop. An all-day sucker would be most fitting, wouldn't
you agree.
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:33:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Nov15.163316.7513
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Nov15.003014.15815@ncsu.edu> scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai) writes:
>
>gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>: In this case, then, you are measuring the quantity of problems the
>: testee can complete satisfactorily, and the speed with which the testee
>: completes each problem gives that testee an edge in completing other
>: problems (testicles?) for which the testee has less ability/intelligence,
>: so if you have the balls to do it, you'd be nuts not to try all the
>: problems in a case like that.
>
>Okay.  I challenge the Mensa members to clearly state what aspect
>of their intellect is superior, or just what these tests are testing.  
>
>   -- Mind is container.  
>      We measure its capacity.
>   -- Mind is computer.   
>      We measure its capability.
>   -- Mind is vehicle.  
>      We measure its speed.

Done.  You haven't been listening.
>
>This should be good.

But not entertaining.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: And again, "Voting Analysis"
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:35:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.180014.6947@walter.cray.com> sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson) writes:
>edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>
>>in the amount of x% * y.  Therefore, the non-voting is a cause of the
>                                                       ^^^^^^^
>Note:  "a cause" does not equal "the cause."
>
>>organization gaining the information.  Further, the objectors in group Y
>>did nothing other than not-vote.  Therefore, not-voting and not-voting
>>alone are the sole cause of the organization gaining information about
>>the objecting non-voters in group Y.
>
>Wrong.  See below.
>
>>You can claim that the non-voters in group X did something else to
>>communicate, but that is not true of those in group Y, which is a much,
>>much larger group than X.  Millions of people contributed to the
>>information gained by the organization and they did so solely by not
>>voting.
>
>Wrong again.  The results of the sampling of group X were applied to group
>Y.  WITHOUT THE SAMPLE OF GROUP X (boy, I wish I could underline or 
>italicize), nothing is learned about group Y, other than "they did not 
>vote."  In and of itself, not-voting does nothing (except give some people
>a warm, fuzzy feeling, I suppose) to change anything.
>

I guess we could go 'round and 'round with this, but it's beginning
to sound eerily like "debates" with Tai in that the defender of the
position is just not very good at injesting new information, not
very good at logical reasoning or just not very good at debate.
Since Eric doesn't strike me as fitting the last two at least, I'd
expect this is developing into another episode of Deuling Egos.

Let's move on.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: The Great Beast accidentally squashes Brian McBean
Organization: The Great Beast 666
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 09:47:46 GMT

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
>corey@amiganet.chi.il.us (Corey Sweeney) writes:
>> Would someone like to tell me what mensa does?
>
>They test to see if you do well on iq tests.  If you do, then you are
>eligible to become a member!  What do members do?  On this newsgroup,
>they tend to solve puzzles and argue with Scott Tai.  Neat, huh?
>
>Brian McBean  -  McBeanB@BrandonU.Ca

{Sorry, can't resist:}
Or they contribute dimwitted posts like this, showing no evident familiarity
with the group and no capacity to understand any of the posts that *aren't*
dimwitted flames.

{Sorry - I was put up to it - but that's fine. Practice, chomp chomp.}

UH-OH.
Well, the hammer falls again. TFS just lost 21 full-time employees to layoffs,
and I got my bad news a day later. Once again, my mailing address is

P.O. Box 278
Berekeley, CA 94701-0278

The chart recipients, send addresses (those who have already, I will look them
up in my files.)

My official very-last-possible day is 4 December, so I'm not quite dead yet,
and I'll get an address on The Well, ASAP, to stay in circulation - but there
may be an interruption. *sigh*

My telephone number {why??} is 510-653-8310, until late december at least.
I'm not drunk, so now's a good time to call.

Cheers . . .
-ecsd
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Re: Keeping Your Mensa Membership A Secret
Organization: The Cat Factory
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:38:20 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-171192112631@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
}In article <16Nov92133624@miracle.com>, jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley)
}wrote:

}>   Anyone have any positive stories concerning telling non-members you're
}>   a member?  Also, what are some of the bad reactions you've recieved?
}
}Well, how about that I got a job in a brand-new field (to me) and within
}two years quadrupled my annual income because I told a hiring-manager that
}I'm in Mensa?

You don't suspect the income quadrupling had anything to do with your
competence at performing the job?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405