Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 14:37:32 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel and the diaspora
 <92312.0400382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
 <1992Nov7.234200.8473@ennews.eas.asu.edu>

In article <1992Nov7.234200.8473@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) says:
>
>In article <92312.0400382893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>
># In article <4428@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
>says:
>
># >I think the above argument has another perspective to it which both of
># >you do not have
>
># >Unlike both of you I live in Israel, and whether you agree or disagree
># >with the policy of the government of Israel you will not necessarily
># >be affected by its consequences.  (Before you flame me, I do realise
># >that anti-Semites everywhere need only the flimsiest excuse for their
># >deplorable activities.)
>
># Ah yes, the famous "wish you were here" argument. Unfortunately, Israel's
># actions often effect us in the diaspora.
>
>        I will not argue here whether or not you are an anti semite.  I
>will however state that you are an anti semite's delight when you give
>comments like that.
>
># For example until a few years ago
># about 90% of Russian Jewish emigres emigrated to nations other than Israel.
>
>        This is misleading s until a few years ago, there were
>practically no Russian Jewish emigres.  There were plenty twenty years ago.

No it's not, I'm referring to emigration in the mid-eighties under Gorbachev
initially 90% was to the west. I'm thinking of 1986, 1987, 1988

>Guess why it stoped?  One reason why it stoped is  because the Soviet
>government was getting upet that they were being diverted from going
>to Israel by various emigree groups.  One of the things they told the
>Soviets when they left, which was the condition they were being allowed
>to leave Russia, was that they were going to Israel.

Once again, I'm referring to the mid to late 80s, not the 70s, look up the
figures yourself.

>
># Israel, feeling that the inherent right of these people to travel should
>only
># be extended as far as Israel tried to make it impossible for them to go
># elsewhere by arranging direct flights to Jerusalem and getting the U.S. to
># impose quotas on the number of Russian Jews entering the country.
>
>        The US was (and still is) imposing quotas on ALL immigrants into
>the US, and one of the criterion is whether or not the individual is
>considered an economic or political refugee.  If Israel is offering

Until a few years ago, all refugees from Russia were accepted, quotas
on Jews were imposed with the urging of Israel and American Zionists.
I read this in the Canadian Jewish News when Sharansky, in a Montreal
speech, criticised Israel and North American Jews for urging this. The speech
was in November of 89 or 90 I believe.

>them a refuge, the US is not going to let them in as a political
>refugee when they can let in someone else who is.
>
># As a result,
># the number of Jews leaving Russia has dropped which puts them in great peril
># should the anti-semites come to power. I remember seeing on the CBC a few
>years
># ago reports of refugee camps in Italy full of Russian Jews who did not want o
>t
># go to Israel but would not be accepted by the US because of the quota.
>
>        You have no idea what you are talking about.  There are Soviet

Actually, it is you who are misinformed, contact some Russian Jewish emigre
groups, examine the exodus figures and destination points, ask them if
Israel and US zionists had anything to do with the change in US policy.
Ask Zionist organisations what they have done to oppose quotas.

>emigree organizations in Italy practically begging these people to
>come to the US.  They have been spotted with signs saying "The Jewish
>G-d is in the US".  These things are all documented, and it is this
>which caused the slow down of emigration.
>
>        One thing Israel did, however, that helped the slow down was in
>not providing the new immigrants with economic oppourtunities.
>However, those who refuse Israel's haven due to economic reasons and
>choose to stay in Rssia, especially when they can go to Israel and
>than apply for immigration to the US hardly qualify as political
>refugees.
They're not given much choice, with direct flights to Israel instead of stops
in Vienna, Russian Jews have no chance to seek refugee status. Israel has long,
 as policy done everything possible to deny Eastern European Jews refugee
status either through direct flights or other agreements or by having Eastern
European Jews sign their status away without telling them what they're doing.

When my father and his family (I was born later) left Romania, they were
entitled to refugee status and could have gone almost anywhere, they were
considering going to Israel and the Israeli consul had them sign papers which
they were led to believe were simply of an administrative nature, nothing to
worry about. As my parents could not read Hebrew, they believed him, it turned
out they were signing away their refugee status and now had no choice but to
go to Israel. This Machiavellian notion that "the ends justify the means"
is prevalent in Israel's approach to Diaspora Jews

e# Also, Israel's human rights atrocities does nothing to help fight
>anti-Semitism
># in the diaspora.
>
>        Like I said above.  You are an antisemites delight.


Personal insults do not add to your argument. Your right, Israel could
commit all sorts of atrocities and it would give anti-Semites no ammunition
against those of us in the diaspora NOT!
>
># If Israel should ever tilt to the far right represented by
># Sharon or Kach, I believe Diaspora Jews would be the target of anti-Semitism
># not seen for decades.
>
>        Ditto.

This is essentially the same point I made above but the first you condemn
the second you concur with.
>--
>"For all I care, you can send your money to the Hitler memorial fund, too, if
>that pleases you."
>
>From  arens@vaxa.isi.edu (Yigal Arens) in article <9323@venera.isi.edu>