From: n9110536@henson.cc.wwu.edu (W. Douglas West)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:01:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan21.170152.8500
Organization: Western Washington University
 
 Hello Fiacha!
 Greetings to Carolus also, although we've never actually met.

In article <93Jan21.151255.19981@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca
 (Charles Parr) writes:
>In article <1j78q3INNmvi@usenet.pa.dec.com> haslock@rust.zso.dec.com
 (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>>
>>(David Tallan) writes:
>>
>>>    It seems to me that there are two elements in operation here in
>>>our pursuit of period fighting styles.
>>>
>>>    One is the use of weapons and armour that resemble as closely as
>>>posssible period weapons and armour. This is supposedly the tack used
>>>by heavy weapons fighters. The theory is that there is a best way to
>>>use these things (ie. swords and shields).
>>
>>This is an interesting theory but it has a number of problems.
>>
>>1) We in the SCA never confirm our fighting style by attempting it with
>>   steel swords.
>
>I *practice* (in a mirror) with a "real" sword to  hone concepts
>of edge work, and because it's fun to whiz a real implement of
>destruction around. I wish medical science was sufficiently
>advanced (perhaps instant regeneration?) to permit real
>combat;-) Imagine how interesting it would be to have
>a limb severed, if you could just grow it right back;-)
>
 
OUCH!! you sadomasochist you!!! :-)
 
>
>>My point three is the development of the wrap shot. I am willing to admit
>>that this is the humble opinion of an observer and so may be utterly wrong.
>>My observation is that wrap shots rarely land edge on and I cannot convince
>>myself that they land with enough force to damage a helm. I would like to
>>see this tried on a dummy, steel helm and steel sword.
>
>As for edge on wraps, yes they are *more* difficult, but if the
>majority of a fighters wraps are landing flat, then he has a
>fundamental problem. Skilled fighters, in my experience, have
>little problem. You may be misled by the simple difficulty
>of seeing what is happening at speed.
>
>As for force, a properly thrown wrap is among the very hardest
>of blows, and also lands on a part of the body covered with both
>less and weaker armour.
>
>Most of our blows are incapable of damaging a helm, but more than
>capable of rattling the brains of the occupant. keep in mind that
>medieval padding was primitive and ineefficient compared to foam.
 
Remember also that a properly thrown wrap shot means shield-pressing your
opponent, anvilling his head or back between your shield and your sword.
I don't know the documentation, but I heard of a infantryman that was found
with the top half of his helm sliced off.  They thought that he had been
struck from behind because of the angle of the slice meant that a frontal
blow wouldn't have been powerful enough, but the angle also wasn't quite
right for a shot launched from behind either.  Upon comtemplating the wrap
shot, they determined that it was the only shot that fit the angle and
force of the blow.  If my memory and source are correct, it means that
the wrap shot is possibly the most forceful shot that can be thrown with
a sword.
 
>
>>Safety issues make the hands wrists and knees illegal targets so we ignore
>>hits to them. I doubt that period fighters would feel so limited and thus
>>would modify their fighting style accordingly.
>
>Wit the possible exception of my head, I'd rather be struck on my
>knees than any other part of my body...An articulated knee joint
>is *incredible* protection. IMHO, the reason we don't strike at
>the knees is simply that when the rules were made, protection
>was not very good, and now it's tradition.
>
>A great many maintenance worries would arise if we aimed frequent
>blows at the knees, though, and articulated knees sets are time
>consuming both to make and repair.
 
Remember that many fighters use plastic knees, which don't have enough mass
to stop the shot from pushing the knee sideways.  Metal knees stop the shock
and most of the force, but plastic knees stop only most of the shock.  If
you want to hit knees, then you have to get the armor regs changed to metal
knees only, which might upset quite a few fighters.
 
>>
>>		Fiacha, retired trainee fighter,
>>		Aquaterra, AnTir
>
>That's okay, though, medieval *tourney* fighting was no more than
>a romantic imitation itself...
>
>I would like to see fighting made more period, though, and have a
>few suggestions.
>
>1) Ban any weapons shield combo which cannot be documented
>   to europe/eastern europe/mediterranean from pre1450.
Ok. But why 1450? Period is up to 1600 at least, and why limit it to the
European Theatre?
>
>2) Ban any weapon/weapon combo (eg, florentine, sword and spear)
>   which cannot be documented in the same way.
Ok, but same response.
>
>3) determine the weight of *real* armour, and enforce a minimum
>   weight rule for armour based on reality.
Per piece? Or per suit? And how are you going to enforce it?
Also, does that depend on the weight of the fighter?
>
>4) Do the same for swords, shields, polearms...
Do you want to get hit by a period weight mace? Period two-handed mace?!!!
>
>5) Make the basket hilt mandatory, and allow the hand as a
>target.
Sorry, I don't agree at all here.  Say I am using a hammer, I want to be
able to hit with the hammerhead, or if that's not long enough to get over my
opponents shield, then with the slighter longer pick end.  A basket hilt
prevents me from swapping striking sides on my weapon.  Also, how about
hafted weapons?
>
>6) allow the knees and shin as targets.
See above about plastic knees.
>
>7) fight bouts to three "points" *or* a killing blow. So three
>clean solid blows to the leg would win you the fight. No more
>silly dropping to knees, putting shield behind back.
Someone want to try this? I would like to know how well it works. Sounds
like a viable alternative to me.
>
>8) Find out, in terms of real hard numbers how hard we have to
>hit, and develop systems of training that *standardise* blow
>strength.
I'm going to suggest that you be in charge of this one, after all, you
thought of it :-).  Really, many people have been trying to standardize
blow force for many years.
>
>A modest proposal...
A modest response...
>
>
>Carolus Malvoix
>Montengarde, An Tir
>These are *my* opinions, not the opinions of Carolus Malvoix,
>Constable of Montengarde.
>-- 
>Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
>separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
>struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
>gourd. --Unknown net.person
 
I *do* like your sig!!
 
(St.) George Slade the Dragoon
Regional Deputy for Arts and Sciences, North Region, An Tir
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