HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gt@fc.sde.hp.com (George Tatge)
Subject: Re: Styrofoam? Paper? Or Wood?
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:51:03 GMT

Michiaki Masuda (masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov) wrote:
: 
: 
:   There are several developments in our area by various developers/builders.
: When we looked at buildings under construction, some builders were using a
: styrofoam board under the siding, some builders were using a cardboard-kind-of
: thing coated with thin aluminum foil (?), and others were using a wooden 
: chipboard.
:   I'm wondering what kind of difference these materials could make.  
:   Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
: 

1. When you say styrofoam, was it blue?

Here is the main thing to consider:

Did you catch the special report about shoddy construction in Homestead,
FL?  If you are in any kind of a windy area or are subjected to severe
storms at times, do NOT settle for a type of construction which is simply
siding over a non-structural insulation board!  1/2 inch "blue-board"
is R3, 1/2 inch (actually 15/32) OSB (wafer board) is about R1.8.  
For the sake of a little over one r-value, you sacrafice ALL structural
value!
   I just built my own home, it's on a point on a hill in the foothills
of the Rockies.  Normal winds can blow at 75mph with gusts up to
115mph (these are just pressure ridges coming over the mountains).
My house stands three-stories tall and has no protection.  At first,
I was going to follow standard building practices around here which
is to use OSB on the corners for shear strength and then use blueboard
elsewhere for insulation and less labor.  Forget it.  I did the
entire house in OSB and I'm glad.  I have shear strength.

Go for the strength!  You can get the same effect as adding one R value
to every wall in your house by simply eliminating one medium size window.

gt

Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: Bates_R*corp_c@msm.cdx.mot.com (Rick Bates)
Subject: house-archive
Organization: Motorola Codex
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:47:05 GMT
From: hakanson@bogart.cse.ogi.edu (Marion Hakanson)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Apollo Hydroheat experiences?
Summary: Integrated water & space heat systems
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:08:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44090
Distribution: usa
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute - Computer Science & Engineering


Greetings,

I'm looking at putting in a replacement for our failed electric water
heater and tired gas forced-air furnace.  I really like the looks of
an "integrated" system, simple, not-too-expensive.  One I've seen is
the Apollo Hydroheat system, which consists of a fairly efficient (85%
Recovery Efficiency) gas water heater (looks pretty normal, nothing
special, can be vented through the wall), along with an air-handler
box (blower, heat-exchanger, and circulation pump; room for cooling
coil too).

The manufacturer is State Industries, and the potential installer says
they have a good reputation.  I'd like to hear other opinions on this
and/or similar installations.  Reliability, efficiency, cost of
components and/or installation, and any other information you can
offer would be appreciated.

A quick reply would be most helpful (we ARE without hot water at the
moment :-), but all useful replies would be welcome.  Please reply by
email to the address below, and I'll summarize to the net at large.

Thanks.

-- 
Marion Hakanson         Domain: hakanson@cse.ogi.edu
                        UUCP  : ogicse!hakanson
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: wouk@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (Arthur Wouk)
Subject:  This Old House
Summary:  how big is the original house?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:41:17 GMT

in this discussion about the new season of this old house, there is
one question no one has raised either on the show or here. that is: we
have a typical two story 'ranch' (a contradiction in terms if i ever
heard one, but then realtors have a lot of gall) which is 'too small'
for a family of four. but as i observe it, it seems to be on the
generous size in the first place. what is the estimated square footage
of the new old house?

i admit the residents want to upgrade because they have a lot of
things there which do not fit, but i lived in the boston area in such
a two story ranch from 55-62. mine was 1100 square feet, and obviously
a lot smaller than the one in question. i would guess they have about
2,000 square feet of finished space, and seem to want about 3000 to
4000.

i am not commenting on the entertainment value of the program,
just about the reality of the owners requirements. is this a case of
more money then sense?
-- 
arthur wouk 
internet: wouk@alumni.cs.colorado.edu
From: shin@tara.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Chang Shin)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: Tree Climbing: SUMMARY
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:43:19 GMT
Reply-To: shin@tara.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Chang Shin)
Organization: NCR Corporation, Rancho Bernardo

In article <1bek3aINNs4c@sixgun.East.Sun.COM> egreen@east.sun.com writes:
>In article 3347@adobe.com, pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>>In article <1bc142INNs4c@sixgun.East.Sun.COM> egreen@east.sun.com writes:
>>>signaled my helper to start pulling the rope, and cut the opposite
>>>side.  As the top 15' - 20' started to fall, I killed and dropped the
>>>saw, squatted down, wrapped both arms around that tree, and hugged it
>>>for dear life!
>>
>>So how far did the tree sway?
>shaking, it was pretty scary up there...
>

What about the root???
From: sjb@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Stuart Bobb)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: Please, sir, explain the FHA MIP refund to me
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:46:23 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA


> Okay, the specifics: I have a five-year-old FHA mortgage which I'm about
> to payoff (I'm refinancing non-FHA to get a better rate). Since I "bought"
> the standard FHA mortgage insurance at the time of purchase, I thought I
> would be eligible for a refund of the "unused" portion of this insurance.
> That is, until I came across this sentence in the "Homeowner's Fact Sheet"
> put out by our friends at HUD/FHA:
> 
>    "Currently, the usual minimum time for the mortgage to have been held
>     [before a distributive share is payable] is 6 or 7 years."

A "distributive share" is not the same thing as a refund on the unused
portion of your FHA one time mortgage insurance premium (aka OTMIP).  You
_are_ entitled to a partial refund on your OTMIP.  It will be pro-rated and
after five years, probably not very large.

> Huh? Does this mean if I payoff my mortgage at (for example) 5 years and
> 364 days, I don't get a refund, but at 6 years and 1 day I would have?

No.  You might not get a "distributive share" even if you met the 6 year
deadline.  The refund papers you fill out from FHA basically say ("Hey Bucko!
Even some of you folks who _are_ normally entitled to a distributive share
can just forget it because congress says we've lost too much money to be
giving any distribution amounts back to people") At least that is the way I
read it.   I certainly didn't get one and it was pretty clear that I
wouldn't when I filled out the paper work.

But, by all means fill out the paper work, because you probably will get some
of your OTMIP back, but I bet its less than a third.  Good luck with getting
a "distributive share" but I wouldn't plan on it.

> David Ruggiero  (osiris@halcyon.com)      Seattle, WA

Stuart Bobb
sjb@fc.hp.com
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: High Eff Furnace Question
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:18:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ

In article <1992Oct14.172529.6003@adobe.com> pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:

>Do you think it is possible to predict whether the price of fuel
>10 years from now will be higher or lower than it is now?

In terms of hours required for a typical U.S. worker to make enough money
to buy a gallon of fuel, costs have consistently decreased since 1919.
I'd say they will continue to do so.

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | In Heaven, the police are British, the cooks are
                    |   French, the mechanics are German, the diplomats
George Patterson -  |   are Swiss, and the lovers are Italian.
                    | In Hell, the police are German, the cooks are
                    |   British, the mechanics are Italian, the diplomats
                    |   are French, and the lovers are Swiss.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bwilliam@oyster.smcm.edu (Bill Williams)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: Sears tools (was Electric Drill Recommendation)
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:49:48 GMT
Organization: St. Mary's College of Maryland
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d10
X-XXMessage-ID: <A6F8AA19A10101D2@williams.smcm.edu>
X-XXDate: Wed, 7 Oct 92 19:52:09 GMT

In article <21177@drutx.ATT.COM> Bob Prehn, rlp@drutx.ATT.COM writes:
>I goofed & bought a garage door opener from them.  The cable is
fraying
>and they only sell it along with the chain for $50.  The light guards
melted
>with the 60 watt bulbs they recommended.  One of the 2 remotes also
had
>poor solder joints to the dip switch for code settings, causing
intermittant
>failure.
I've been using two Sears door openers for more than five years with no
problems of any kind. I've also heard a great deal about supposed
declines in Sears quality, and while I believe the people who say this
I have had no personal experience to support it.  They closed our local
Sears recently (service there was absolutely abysmal), and it
distresses me greatly.
___________________________________
William E. Williams, bwilliam@oyster.smcm.edu
Divison of Natural Sciences and Mathematics
St. Mary's College of Maryland
St. Mary's City, MD 20686
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: abbott@priory.enet.dec.com (Robert Abbott)
Subject: Re: High Eff Furnace Question
Organization: TP Performance
Distribution: na
Date: 14 OCT 92 08:37:13    


In article <1992Oct13.135151.431@sdc.com>, kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki) writes...
>In article <BvvEB0.284@visix.com> ken@visix.com writes:
>>What effect does efficiency have on operation and purchase costs.
> 
I thought I'd pass on the view of the gas burner repair man who
was at my house last week. He feels that high-efficiency gas
burners cost the same (or maybe more) overall than the lower-
efficiency units. What the owner saves in fuel costs is offset
by higher costs in maintenance and repair.  

An analogy to today's autos is not out of order. Today's computer
controlled, multi-valve, fuel-injected engines are certainly
more efficent than those of 20 years ago. However they are more
costly to maintain and repair.

Whether or not you save money overall with high-efficiency burners 
is heavily dependent on the cost of fuel. Moreover it is impossible
to predict the price of fuel 5 and 10 years from now and this 
figure is often needed for cost calculations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for energy efficient appliances.
However, I don't think that in all cases you save money over
a conventional appliance.

------------------------
Robert K. Abbott
abbott@tps.enet.dec.com          
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Subject: Did the $5k first-time deduction die?
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:25:56 GMT

I know, it's a forlorn hope, but I just want to make sure: did
the $5k deduction for first-time home buyers that Bush trumpeted
in his state of the union address survive, or did it die of
neglect?  I never even heard of Congress debating it.

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
From: exukev@exu.ericsson.se (Kevin Autrey)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: GFCIs and the Garbage Disposal/Dishwasher outlet
Summary: I looked in the FAQ, honest I did!
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:08:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

I'm about to install a Garbage Disposer (GD) in my kitchen sink (I
thought about putting it in the oven, but it just didn't make good
ergonomic sense).  I will need to run a new circuit for this GD - 
because this GD is going where no GD has gone before.  Does the outlet
for this type of appliance need to be GFCI protected?

Normally, I'd GFCI it - hey $8 is nothing for a guy with a Home Depot
Credit Card - but there's a hitch!  The circuit that I'm going to run
will actually be a "multi-wire branch circuit" with just one outlet -
that outlet under the sink.  My intention is making one side of the
circuit dedicated for the GD, the other side dedicated for a
dishwasher (how the previous owners got along without a Waste King
2600 Garbage Disposal unit and a Maytag JetClean dishwasher for 38
years, I will *never* know).

So, the difference here is not just an $8 GFCI outlet, but an
expensive multi-pole GFCI breaker.

Anybody know what the NEC says about such a situation (the GD/DW
circuit and GFCIs)?  I'd appreciate any and all comments.


Thanks.

Kevin
________ _________________________________________________________________
\      /                                       | Ericsson Network Systems
 \  Kevin Autrey                               | P.O. Box 833875 - MS L-04
  \  /            wk: exukev@exu.ericsson.se   | Richardson, TX 75083-3875
   \/             hm: kevin@batpc.lonestar.org | Phone: (214) 997-6865
From: schefter@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Tim Schefter)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:01:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Playground rubber mat?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house

  In a couple of years that play area will be empty of the shredded rubber;
it will have all been carried home in the childrens shoes.  My children go
to that school.
From: amy@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Amy McNulty)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: This Old House
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:55:43 GMT

In article <2928072147@ARTEMIS.cam.nist.gov> miller@FS1.cam.nist.gov  
(Bruce R. Miller) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Oct14.123500.6755@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, Robert T.  
Weverka writes:
> >   Should we alert Norm and Steve?
> > -Ted
> 
> It's probably already finished!

I'm sure it is. There was an ad in the Globe last summer,
asking for volunteers for a ranch renovation. It said they
wanted to start work in July, so I'm sure they're working
on another project by now....

______________________________________________________________
amy_mcnulty@vos.stratus.com  OR  amy@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Amy McNulty -- Stratus Computer, Marlboro, MA
Stratus pays me to write, but not to write this!
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: Safety in my home (was: Killing Burglars)
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:31:48 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Oct9.145847.11481@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie) writes:
>In article <3875@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca> clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:

>>Besides, the relative crime-rates are so different, it's ludicrous
>>to compare statistics such as this.  More people are murdered in
>>New York City over the course of a couple of weeks than are murdered
>>in all of the UK over a whole year.  (And that's with NYC having
>>some of the toughest gun control legislation in the US.)

>Absolutely. You can't expect someone raised in Switzerland (to pick a 
>country) to behave the same as someone raised in Mexico (to pick another).
>Ireland has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world, and one
>of the highest murder rates. Switzerland has one of the most heavily
>armed citizenry in the world and one of the lowest murder rates.

While most people tend to discard "armed insurrection" numbers from
murder rates, it's worth keeping the *real* rates in perspective
and not get mislead by the relative amounts of publicity.

If you include the Northern Ireland "troubles" in the murder rates,
the murder rate is *still* an order of magnitude lower in Northern
Ireland than in many US cities, LA, NYC, or Dallas (the highest rate
in the US in my, admittedly somewhat old, world almanac) in particular.

If I remember rightly, there have been ~2000 in Northern Ireland since
1972.  100 per year.  There were several years where the murder rate
in Detroit (with a population perhaps half of all of Northern Ireland)
was running 1000-1500/year.  [BTW: At the same time Toronto was running
~40 per year with a population about 50% bigger than that of Detroit.
Toronto just jumped in one year to ~100 from hovering at ~50 for about
a decade.  The recession and crack + other drugs are having their effect.]

Ie: it's *still* a lot safer to live in Northern Ireland than in, say,
Dallas.

Last I heard NYC and LA were running about 3000/year.  [I should point
out that this is metropolitan area, not "official city" area].  If you
scaled Toronto to their size with current rates, we'd be talking about
300-500/year.  Montreal slightly higher.  Most other Canadian cities
somewhat lower.  [Unlike the US, the murder rates are highest in
some small cities.  Like Sudbury.]

>Only a fool would use these facts to argue for or against gun control in
>the United States. U.S. citizens do not behave the same as Swiss citizens
>or Irish or British, etc.

If you combine it with the other factors in play, it's still somewhat
useful.  But Switzerland is a very special case and should be ignored.
[Except when exploring alternatives ;-)]
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
From: clark@cme.nist.gov (Steve Clark)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Oversize prefab shower floors
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:10:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

I'm trying to build an (apparently) oversize shower.  I'd like to put
it on a neo-angle base (corner installation with the three sides in
front), and I'd like the base to be 4' square.  Most places only have
bases to 38", and I've found only one or two that even have a 42"
base.  Anybody know whether 1) a 48" one exists, or 2) it's possible
to have one custom made?  Of course, if a custom made one would cost
as much as having a mortar and tile base built, then I don't imagine
I'll buy the former ...

DC area suppliers are preferred, but I'm curious to know whether this
is possible at all, hence the wider distribution.

I'll summarize email responses if interest warrants.

thanks,
-steve		clark@cme.nist.gov
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Re: This Old House
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:41:13 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1992Oct13.164117.5561@colorado.edu> wouk@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (Arthur Wouk) writes:
>i am not commenting on the entertainment value of the program,
>just about the reality of the owners requirements. is this a case of
>more money then sense?

If they can afford it and want it, why do you feel it necessary
to question them?

Do you think they should do something else with their money?

-- 
My opinions are my own.
Happy owner of a new Mitsubishi Expo.
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
From: drand@spinner.osf.org (Douglas S. Rand)
Subject: Re: High Eff Furnace Question
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: 12 Oct 92 11:17:28

In article <BvvEB0.284@visix.com> ken@visix.com (Ken Mayer) writes:

   Last week, inspectors found cracks in the heat exchanger on my old gas
   furnace. I am now facing a $$$ hit with little or no information
   about what I need.

   I've received a bid for a Bryant 394HAD for $1050 installed ($1,475
   less $425 discount). 1 year parts and labor warrantee. 10 year
   warrantee on the heat exchanger. The unit is rated 78% AFUE; 63,000
   BTU input, 52,000 BTU output; 950 Cooling CFM @ 0.5 ESP (whatever that
   means!).  The dealer said something about needing a blower to support
   a 2-ton HVAC unit (which may also die in the next few years :-(. My
   condo does have a service contract, so parts and labor are covered
   even after the first year.  Question is, what kind of equipment is
   this particular Bryant unit, can I do better.

   78% does not sound terribly efficient, but then I don't know what else
   is out there, nor how much a higher efficiency unit would cost.

   I guess I need to know the following things:

   What specs do I need so that I can ask vendors for quotes.
   (Efficiency, BTU's, etc.) 

   What effect does efficiency have on operation and purchase costs.

   What brands should I be looking at. (Which ones should I avoid.) From
   what I've read about the Lennox unit, I should probably avoid it due
   to the noise problems (the furnace is not well insulated from sound).

We have a Bryant high efficiency unit.  It's now going into its third
winter and has performed well.  The difference in price between the
90% eff. one we bought and the 80% eff. one was $200.  For us that
means about a two or three year payoff (with more normal winters it
would have been a two year or eighteen month payoff).  

For a small unit like yours,  ours is a 250,000 BTU house unit,  
the payoff might be considerably longer.  You can calculate the
payoff directly from the difference in price,  efficiency and
your average current heating bill (close enough).  Also figure
that the furnace has no more then a 15 to 20 yr life and you
should be able to make an intelligent decision.

Good luck.
--

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas S. Rand <drand@osf.org>		OSF/Motif Dev.
Snail:         11 Cambridge Center,  Cambridge,  MA  02142
Disclaimer:    I don't know if OSF agrees with me... let's vote on it.
Amateur Radio: KC1KJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: johnp@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (John Parsons)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:16:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Water Re-circulators (was IN-LINE WATER HEATERS)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house

 steed@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Gary Steed) writes:

>It was suggested by a few contractors that we might consider a re-
>circulator....
>Does any one have experience with these units, and a better explanation
>of how it works?

If your water heater is lower than the bath faucets, all you need to
do is run 3/8 inch tubing from the hot water pipe near the faucet back
to the cold water supply at the heater.  Put a 1-way flow control in
the 3/8 line.  Gravity will continuously circulate the water for you.
We have this set-up and it works fine.

John Parsons
johnp@gr.hp.com