HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: 28 Jul 92 02:53:57 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 2684

From article <Bs27wu.7FK@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
> In article <1992Jul27.110552.2981@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>>
>>  Why is there no mechanism to enable constituents to precipitate (for want
>>  of a better word) a bi-election?
>>
> Steve: you were born in England.  The Canadian political system is not
> very different from the England one.  One feature here (and probably
> in England) is that we elect individuals.  While they are linked to
> party and the number of deputies give the government/opposition, the
> deputies are free to change their mind.  However, you may prefer
> a republican country (like France or Ireland)?  In many republican democracy,
> the parties get votes and select deputies.  So, if a deputy change of
> party, s/he must loose seat.

  Quite right. I don't believe any system is perfect. The British model
  has survived very well despite its flaws.

  Technically one votes for the individual but we all know that is not
  a reliable way to analyse the results in all the ridings. 

  It matters not, actually, whether the representative was elected as an
  individual or on a party platform (except a party platform candidate is
  easier to identify as a turncoat perhaps). If the rep. radicaly shifts his
  position from that for which he was elected - there should be a way for
  constituents to force a bi-election and make him seek a new mandate.

  A rep. failing to obtain a new mandate is dishonest and immoral. It
  isn't "cricket" in my book.

> As I think to that : is the Republic of Ireland a member of Commonwealth?

  I am not sure.

{ Aside:-

  I can tell you that there are many young ladies from Ireland training
  and working as nurses in London and other cities in England. 

  To the best of my knowledge, relations between the Irish and the English
  are still good :-))))))))) }

> Original language of Scotland, Ireland and Wales were not English, but
> a large part if not the majority is today English speaking.  The same in
> Canada : in 1759, everybody of the French colony was speking French
> (except some natives).  After British takeover, there was a drop from
> 100% to 25%.  I know there is no relation about the debate, but, anyway.
> 

  Why DID France abandon her colony?

  Until de Gaulle came over here, anyway! :-)))))))

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: marky@engin.umich.edu (Mark Anthony Young)
Subject: Re: Richard Holden & compulsory bi-elections
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 09:52:26 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Distribution: can

steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>From article <12395@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
>> Who is Richard Holden?
>> -- 
>>                                                        Francois Audet
>
>  Who IS Richard Holden?
>
Well?  You're the one who brought him up, so you must have SOME idea.

If not for Franc,ois, please answer for the benefit of those of us who don't
get Quebec news, who thus far have been forced to infer and outright guess.

...mark young
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 04:15:09 GMT

In article <12373@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>Maybee you should tell your agents that it's legal to have companies
>with english names.

I've done accounting work for a plethoria of small Quebec companies
that had english names; when they tried to keep those names on the
sign out front, in the aftermath of Bill 178, the OLF headed out in
force (and I don't know if they actually FOUND the village of
Shawville...)

It's hardly helpful to be allowed to use a name for legal purposes,
and then find that you can't put it on a sign...

-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: marky@engin.umich.edu (Mark Anthony Young)
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:31:46 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>[cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) wrote]:
>]It's hardly helpful to be allowed to use a name for legal purposes,
>]and then find that you can't put it on a sign...
>
>Of course you can put your company's english name on your sign. Stop
>making unfounded assertions like this. They are tonnes of shops with
>legal english names, written on their signs.
>
If this is so, why did "McKenna's Flowers" have to go to court and
eventually repaint their sign to read "Les fleurs McKenna"?

Has the government of Quebec relented on this case?

...mark young
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Monument to de Gaulle
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<SBO.92Jul23164304@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca>
	<1992Jul24.191516.6311@pandora.matrox.com>
	<Brzy25.IF1@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:31:12 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Brzy25.IF1@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> msharder@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Mathew Harder) writes:

   In article <1992Jul24.191516.6311@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
   >
   >If Quebecers hope to remain within the Commonwealth after
   >separation, then it will be prudent for them to show
   >respect for Her Majesty.

      Somehow, I don't think that staying in the BRITISH Commonwealth is
   quite what the sovereigntists have in mind.  :-)

The British was dropped from the name a while ago.   Recall that the
Commonwealth considered throwing the UK out of the Commonwealth a few
years ago because they were not going along with the Commonwealth
sanctions against the Republic of South Africa.

Oh, and Jacques Parizeau has been quoted on numerous occasions that an
independent Quebec would be interested in being a member of the
Commonwealth. (Parizeau himself is quite the anglo-phile, by the way.)

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Evolving conceptions of "fairness"
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:02:52 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Jul27.170915.17090@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>The Anglo-Quebecois' conception of "fairness" has evolved a great
>deal over time.
[some stuff deleted while fairly representative ;-)  ]

>Recently, the more radically nationalist Quebecois have decided that
>this is not sufficient: French must be the ONLY public language.
>English must be confined to the private homes of English Quebecers
>de souche.  Law 178, reiterating Law 101, is a partial implementation
>of this doctrine. The English do not yet regard this as fair, but in
>time, will they come around?
>
>--
>Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com

Law 101 was given by Parti Quebecois which is more nationalistic than
Liberal party.

Law 178 was given by Liberal party.  I see it as a reaction to court decision
(the intent of the Quebec people is generally of having it in French,
so the court decision shall be reversed).  Between us, I don't see
how you can associate the more radically nationalist Quebecois and
the Boubou party.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:51:15 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1782

From article <1992Jul22.034920.25285@pandora.matrox.com>, by thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood):
> Alliance Quebec produces stickers with "F/E"
> written on them, and gives them to shopkeepers,
> suggesting that they post them to indicate that
> they offer service in both French and English.
> These signs are legal.
> 
> .....
>
> what could be more directly defiant of a law
> against comfort, than the word "Welcome!" emblazened in
> large letters?
> 
> 
> Clearly, the "Bienvenue/Welcome" signs are better than
> the "F/E" signs.

  As an individual person speaking for myself:-
  I couldn't agree more!
  
  "F/E" looks like something the City Fire Department might paint
  on a wall with a spray can!


  As an executive officer of the Montreal region chapter of Alliance Quebec
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  I can add this comment:-

  This project is a typical example of how the Alliance Quebec top brass
  fails to consult its members.

  Members were not asked for ideas. They could have run a competition through
  the newsletters asking for creative ideas and suggestions. They could have
  asked the chapters for comments.

  The stickers were presented to the chapters and membership who were simply
  asked to distribute them.

  Alliance Quebec can claim a few significant victories (as indeed they do).
  Legitimately claiming that they accurately represent the community for whom
  they claim to speak is another matter.


  
-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey)
Subject: Re: Canada 125 - Politicaly involved?
Organization: Computing & Comm. Services, University of Ottawa
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:05:09 GMT

In article <SBO.92Jul27184545@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca> sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:
>
>Somehow I feel that Canada 125 is going behond his mendate
>"to bring Canadians to celebrate Canada's 125 anniversary".

...................
>
>Am I the only one to think Canada 125 should have been more
>careful in their approach to avoid politics?
>
Wow!
I didn't know there was anything behind the canada 125 stuff, *except*
politics.  There's a Canada 125 booth in the Rideau Centre getting
people to sign petitions/cards/something saying they want canada to
be all together and happy (or something like that)

Now you're telling me that there's some other reason for it?  A
celebration?
-- 
Pete Hickey               | Pete@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "If a vegetarian eats
Communication Services    |   or (if desperate)     |  vegatables, then what
University of Ottawa      | petehic@uottawa.bitnet  |  does a humanitarian
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 564-7646         |  eat?"
From: sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Monument to de Gaulle
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:43:04 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

>>>>> On 23 Jul 92 16:05:26 GMT, thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) said:

	[...]
  > soldiers.  This man had the gall (forgive the pun) to
  > come over here, and interfere uninvited in the internal
  > affairs of Canada, in an extremely ignorant and disruptive
  > manner, by saying something he never bothered to justify,
  > even in his memoirs.  The bad taste is very strong.

--English version follows--

Tu aurais pu dire la meme chose de la reine. Recemment elle
est venu et elle a parle d'un Canada uni, ou quelque chose
du genre. En plus, on a erige une statue en son honneur tout
recemment.

Tu aurais pu aussi parler de cela, mais tu-as choisi de ne
parler que de De Gaule...

---------------------------

You could have said the same thing about the queen. Recently
she came to canada, and she talked about a United Canada, or
something like that. Furtermore, a statue was erected in his
honnor.

You could have also talked about this too, but you chose to
speak only about De Gaule...

---------------------------
--
  ,                          ,                           ,
Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | Tel: (514)340-5950
sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | Fax: (514)340-4078
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Queen and de Gaulle (was Re: Monument to de Gaulle)
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:18:04 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <28JUL92.10352461.0067@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94000) writes:
>I don't like the system of monarchy on principle, so I'd like to
>see the monarchy abolished in Canada.  I'm not sure exactly
>what we should replace it with.
>
>The Queen cannot say whatever she wants.  For the most part, she
>reads speeches written for her by government officials.  If she came

So, because Malrunney wants to be elected because he (will/try hard to/
almost but fail?) unify Canada, inviting the Queen and giving her
a speech in favor of Muleroney view of unity is then spending one
million of public $ for party.  It is a fraud.

Having De Gaulle making a speech is something much better if you 
want to compare.

>When you refer to the "Stupid Queen", are you referring to the
>institution or the person?  If it's the former, I'll agree with
>you.  If it's the latter, I'd ask what's your source of information
>on her IQ.

The symbol, obviously.  ANything else is make up.

>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bilinguisme
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:44:58 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Jul23.125526.12476@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>From article <12344@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM
> Francois Audet writes:-
>
>> 
>> I agree. Especially since I wrote the thing about the british since I
>> believed Mr. Potter's example of a school in a language I've never
>> heard of in London was totally irrelevant.
>
>  Francois asked "What do immigrants do in Great Britain?" - I gave him
>  an example of a Gujarati school in London, provided at public expense.
>
>  I thought the example was relevant to the question.

Mais, ce sont les Brits qui ont occupe (ca vous rappelle quelque chose?)
l'Inde.  C'est bien normal qu'apres avoir mutile la societe du sous-continent
indien, ils en subissent les contre-coups, recoivent les Gujarati et
leur donnent des bonbons pour qu'ils ne se revoltent pas.  Fairplay anglais.

>
>  Draw your own conclusions folks.
>-- 
>  ///==================================================================\\\
>  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
>  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
>  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Xref: sparky can.politics:5557 can.general:3608
From: sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general
Subject: Re: Olympic Musing
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:24:48 GMT
	<Bs2M4J.9I6@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> <1992Jul28.010006.27816@csi.uottawa.ca>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

>>>>> On 28 Jul 92 01:00:06 GMT, cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) said:
  > Nntp-Posting-Host: prgv

  > But it is relevant, since you brought up Quebec nationalism.  Athletes
  > come from many COUNTRIES around the world.  There are no "provincial"
  > teams there.

Aren't the Brittish sending various teams representing
different regions of the whole country.

  > What does "Olympic spirit" have to do with the Olympic games?  :-)
  > With all of the money involved, and all of the politicization of the
  > Games, the Olympics aren't much OTHER than propaganda.

If Canada wants to be a model, it should go back to the true
"Olympic spirit". "L'important est de participer".

--
  ,                          ,                           ,
Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | Tel: (514)340-5950
sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | Fax: (514)340-4078
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bilingualism at universities (was Re: Bla, bla)
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:57:50 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <1992Jul28.044552.5485@bcrka451.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>As-tu etudie a l'universite d'Ottawa?  Moi je l'ai fait.  Tous les
>services dont j'ai eu besoin etaient disponibles en francais.  Les
>documents, les formulaires a remplir, etc.  Et si j'ai eu a prendre
>quelques cours en anglais, c'est seulement parce qu'il n'y avait pas
>assez d'etudiants en informatique pour avoir des cours separes.
>Alors, pourquoi affirmes-tu que l'universite d'Ottawa n'est pas
>bilingue?

Oui, en Genie. Dans 4 ans de genie, je n'ai pu suivre que seulement 2
cours de Genie en francais: un en 1ere anne et 1 en deuxieme. On a
essaye de remettre un travail en francais une fois on le prof nous a
dit qu'on avait pas le droit. On lui a dit que si. Il est alle
verifier, et nous a dit qu'on avait raison, MAIS que si on le faisait,
notre note en souffrirai parce qu'il serait incapable de corriger
adequatement.

J'ai vu des classes ou presque tous les etudiants etaient
francophones, et le prof l'etait aussi: le cours fut evidemment donne
en anglais pour ne pas forces ces pauvres anglos. (Note que
theoriquement, ils sont supposes etre bilingues et ont subit un
pseudo-test en premiere annee pour prouve qu'ils le sont). Encore de
la frime.

C'est bien beau se proclammer bilingue, encore faut-il l'etre
rhealistement :-)


-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
From: thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: RACISM???/Access to English schools
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:25:21 GMT
Organization: Matrox Ltd.

steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:

>    It also means forcing English-speaking families coming to Quebec to
>    send their children to French school! (Despite the existence of many
>    excellent French immersion programs in English schools; and despite the
>    existence of article (26)(3) of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human
>    Rights and Freedoms)

While I do sympathise with Steve Potter's desire to acquire the
same rights as an Anglo-Quebecois de souche, I think he is wrong
to base his case on a claim of "fundamental" rights.

Unless you are religious, there are no God-given commandments.
The Ten Commandments, Human Rights, and other ideals are, at their
strongest, bits of good advice.  Governments are free to interpret
them as they wish, and are not in practice bound by them.

The Government of Quebec is bound concretely only by the Constitution,
and apart from the various cases it has lost in the Supreme Court
(passing Bill 1 in French only; restriction of English schooling to
descendents of English-educated Quebecers only, as opposed to
English-educated Canadians;  the banning of English on signs --
later restored to legality through use of the "notwithstanding
clause"), it has acted within its rights.

As an encouragement to accept this argument, I point out that claiming
fundamental rights to do what the Charter of the French Language
says you can't has yielded no results, and has only made its admirers
angry.  When an anglophone thumps the table proclaiming his rights,
francophones hear the Conqueror.

And it leads to nasty, brutish, and short debates of the form:

A:  It's my right!
                             F: No it's not!
A:  Yes it is, cuz rights
    are rights are rights
                             F: No they're not cuz the only right is
                                the right of Quebec to defend its culture!
A:  You're a barbarian!
                             F: You're a colonialist and your wife's
                                a maudite grosse anglaise!
 
A:  Grr!                     F: Grr!


To get the Quebec Government to change its policy, we will have to
use the political process.  If the oppression of anglophones is perceived
to be in the best interests of francophones, there is no hope.  Therefore,
our task is twofold:
- Make it worthwhile for the majority to be nice to the English community.
  This is where pressure tactics may be useful, but as I mentioned above,
  this is risky.  Better, perhaps, to act like baby seals.
- Advertize this worthwhileness.  "We could be allies, but you'll have
  to stop trying to deport us."
- Demonstrate that extremists are an obstacle to achieving the full
  benefits of the worthwhileness.  I.E. Divide and c------.

--
Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com
Xref: sparky can.politics:5435 can.general:3464
From: sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Question on English (was: Re: Bof?)
Date: 20 Jul 92 22:22:10 GMT
	<BrK8FF.5H2@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> <1992Jul18.042509.23666@csi.uottawa.ca>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal


>>>>> On 18 Jul 92 04:25:09 GMT, cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) said:

  > In the present, the "right group" has changed, and underqualified
  > individuals get hired because they are in that group.  It's no longer
  > a male "WASP" group (White AngloSaxon Protestant) that gets "the
  > break," but rather the group has become the rough complement thereof;
  > it's in being female/non-white/non-WASP/aboriginal that gets you into
  > the group that, so to speak, "rides the gravy train."

Can someone explain to me the origin and exact meaning of
gravy train? I've seen it here and there, but never found a
clear explanation.

You can answer by e-mail if you think it is not of general
interest.

Thanks.
--
  ,                          ,                           ,
Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | Tel: (514)340-5950
sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | Fax: (514)340-4078