From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: GURPS Martial Arts (was Re: GURPS Armor)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:15:00 GMT

	Alright, let's try to condense and clarify here. 

	Kromm seems to agree with me that Slams are too easy. I think it is 
generally too easy to move into an armed fighter's hex, even if he is using 
the Wait maneuver. There needs to be some way for an armed fighter to keep 
an unarmed combatant at bay. My initial post was asking for suggestions of 
how to do just that. 

	The 'Stop Thrust' rule of 1rst Edition seems to be effective only 
in killing off dumb monsters and animals which don't have significant 
defense rolls. 

	The main point of dissension seems to be on what fights are like 
in reality. I maintain that an equally skilled swordsman should generally 
make mincemeat of an unarmed attacker. Certainly it is possible for an 
unarmed attacker with martial arts to take on an armed opponent - but this 
is generally when the opponent is less skilled. 

	I submit to Dr. Kromm the description of GURPS Martial Arts - which 
relates that martial arts generally concentrated on *weaponed* fighting in 
its development, and the emphasis on unarmed maneuvers was for situations 
where weapons were unavailable. Kenjutsu, Kali stick-fighting, and many other 
martial arts do not teach close combat, unarmed maneuvers. Does this make 
them ineffective in real-life situations? I don't think so. 

	That said, we have some differences on what the rules say. Anyone 
not interested in nitpicky things should stop here. 



guest@chopin.Physics.McGill.CA (Dr. Kromm) writes:
>Since the average martial-artist in any campaign I've seen will be at No 
>Encumbrance, the martial-artist will have the higher MV, and hence will 
>strike first! This is exactly what I am talking about, here. He moves in and 
>attacks before you even get your turn. 

	Depends on the setup of the combat. If the combatants notice each 
other when they are more than a few yards away from each other, then this 
'first strike' advantage is pointless. The two of them simply alternate 
taking turns. 
	
>
>     You don't seem too informed about the rules. First, only Brawling,  
>Boxing and Karate give you the Hand Parry maneuver. Not Judo. That was  
>changed in Martial-Arts, and is the rule as of now. 

	Give me a break! This is not in the Basic rules, and if it is in 
1st ed. Martial Arts, it is very well hidden. In my post, I never referred 
to anything except Karate and Judo having no penalties to parry weapons. 

>	This doesn't make it "easy"! If you attempt a Karate parry and fail, 
>the attacker has the option of chopping your hand off! This isn't an issue 
>if you are parrying a punch. Since most martial-artists will be at light or 
>No Encumbrance, this means light armour and little PD. The parry will by no 
>means be a sure thing *unless* you have a huge skill, Enhanced Parry and 
>Combat Reflexes. 

	I never said that it was 'easy' or 'a sure thing'. What I did say is 
that the unarmed fighter can get a decent parry compared to other fighters. 
Compare a beginning black belt in Karate (Skill 15) with a weaponed fighter - 
let us say broadsword. The black belt can probably wear a chainmail shirt and 
leather leggings/head protection while keeping in Light Encumbrance (this  
will depend on his ST), giving base parry 10 and PD 2 or 3. The broadsworder 
will have Skill 16, for base parry 8, with heavier armor and a shield, for PD 
maybe 5 or 6. Hence, the Karateka is roughly on a comparable level of parrying 
as the broadsworder. 

> 
>> 	Alternatively, he can All-Out Attack to close the distance, and 
>> take a +4 on his chance to lock your weapon arm, and then can very 
>> likely break it before you can get out.
>
>Huh? No. Grapples and Arm Locks are Close-Combat only maneuvers. An  
>All-out Attack is *not allowed* in Close-Combat. How could the maneuver  
>above be carried out at all? Have you read the rules lately?

	The rules are unclear on this point, at least to me. None of the 
martial maneuvers are distinguished between close combat and normal. Jump 
Kicks have a reach of 2 specified, for example, but the reach of the other 
kicks is never specified. 
	The rules on Close Combat say that All-Out Attack is not an option 
in CC, but if an AOA's movement takes you into an opponent's hex - what 
happens? Do you lose your action, or is your attack counted as a normal 
attack from then on? 

>
>     Also, an Arm Lock doesn't begin inflicting damage until the turn  
>*after* it is applied. You have a full turn to get out. 

	A Judoka or other martial artist with a style including Arm Lock is 
at a huge advantage compared to anyone else, since not only does he presumably 
have a higher level of Judo - he also has the bonus of the points he has in 
that maneuver. The roll to break out of a Lock once established is against 
Arm Lock + 4, I believe, which makes it darn tough at a minimum. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You don't need a weatherman to know which way
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | the wind blows."
Columbia University         |                             - Bob Dylan
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