HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Keywords: news british uk
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:41:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.202313.16610@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry) writes:
>In article <ZXX1TB4w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
>>Ian@unipalm.co.uk writes:
>>
>>- Up to now, Pipex has excluded "uk" groups from those fed to uunet (and
>>- hence the rest of Usenet) mainly on the grounds that this was the
>>- status quo.
>>-
>>- Unless I hear a clamour against the idea, I shall remove the "!uk" from
>>- our uunet feed. I shall of course exclude uk.net.maps if its de-facto
>>- moderators wish.
>>
>>  Ian, I support the idea.  I am a Briton in Canada WILLLING to see these
>>groups go abroad.  As for the USA coming to the picture, DON'T worry!!  They
>>would end up dead before they could make  a mistatement.
>
>Um... Ian, I don't know how to put this... I've suddenly come up with
>a reason against... :-)
>

Me too.  I am now definitely against it.  
If DSY supports it, it has to be wrong by definition.

There are too many groups anyway.  I have to edit my .newsrc
almost daily to keep it pared down to size.  It's too easy to
create new groups, and too many groups are exported which are 
more properly local to a certain area.  The information age is
drowning us.


sue
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:29:12 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>Gee, someone had better tell Steve Mansfield and Mitch Gold (the moderators
>of .archives) this fact.  Thanks for demonstrating once again why only
>people who have been reading rec.games.frp as long as you know enough about
>it to propose new subgroups, Josh.

Uh, chummer.  He's not the one proposing a new group, so your comment is
rather colored.  I believe it's the 'straw man' technique: create an
imaginary target and attack it.  Or is it 'ad hominem': if you can't 
counter the attack on your proposal, attack and discredit the attacker?

Loren (resident Basic Rhetoric guru) care to clarify?


-- 
Ogden's Law:
	The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch
	up.
From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Subject: Re: Why alt.folklore.computers should stay in alt (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:38:19 GMT

In article <id.05UU.HRK@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.141555.7933@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>> No, it's not *more* misleading. IMHO alt.folklore.computers is also
>> "*strongly* misleading"
>
>Why? I think it's entirely appropriate to the readership and subject matter.
>So would misc.folklore.computers be. 

Misc.f.c would be just as appropriate as a.f.c, but I don't think it's
very appropriate. See below.

>I wouldn't want it in talk: talk is more
>of a sewer than alt.

Perhaps not in its organization, but surely in its content.

>> I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. The group has a *very* strong
>> factual content
>
>Just because somethings factual doesn't mean it's (a) not folklore, or (b)
>not appropriate for a folklore group. Folk medicine, for example, has
>provided clues that have led to many valuable drugs.

You're right in that folklore can have a factual content; I've never
disputed that personally (sorry if that wasn't clear from my post).
However, many people do *not* agree with you. In fact, what I see as
one of the dangers of moving to m.f.c is that you might get
overzealous people acting net.police, and shouting "this is fact and
doesn't have anything in a folklore group to do". In a.f.u, people
frequently write things like "I'm sorry for injecting a little fact in
this discussion, but...".

Also, even though there is "factual folklore", I still can't see most
of the posts in a.f.c as folklore. To me, folklore means something
passed down as oral traditions through the generations, *not*
recounting of first-hand knowledge or quotes from manuals.

>It's not like the other folklore groups, which seem more like talk groups
>to me, but that's irrelevant. 

It's irrelevant _now_, when the name is old and accepted. It wouldn't
be irrelevant if a new group is created in another hierarchy. The
newcomers (who don't read alt) would at best be a bit confused, at
worst so confused they'd ruin things.

>The name is fine 

I used to think so, too. What made me change my mind was when I called
for the creation of alt.folklore.science. I had imagined a group like
a.f.c, but encompassing all scientific activities, not just computing.
Instead we got something very much like a subset of a.f.urban. 

>and the place is fine, and the
>only place I could see it in the "big 7" is in misc.

Agreed! I'd *like* to see it in comp, but too many people wouldn't for
that to be a realistic proposal.

> Har du kramat din varg idag?

How appropriate - Peter's Mysterious Motto in Swedish! 

"Om jag hade haft en varg skulle jag ha kramat den"

Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
Dept. of Theoretical Physics    |  \  Z   / q
University of Lund, Sweden      |   >----<           
Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se     |  /      \===== g
Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52          | /e-      \q
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:50:08 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <1992Nov10.210335.10608@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:
>cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>
>>I believe that a newsgroup devoted to campaigns will not only contain
>>those messages which already exist in other newsgroups that are related to
>>the subject.  The Campaign newsgroup will foster new discussions, promote
>>new interest in campaigning, and serve as the starting ground for many
>>(I hope) fine net-based story-campaigns that will be enjoyable reading
>>for all.
>
>    Utter nonsense. Campaigns have been discussed in rec.games.frp and
>in the rec.games.frp.* hierarchy for over 7 years. You have been reading
>these groups for only 2 months. What makes you think you know something
>about campaigning that those of us who have been here for the 7 years
>don't? 

First of all, I never said that I did know "something about campaigning" that
those of you who have been here for 7 years don't.  The description of
.campaign does not read "a group for cbnorman to teach you about campaigning"
does it?

I also object to your implication that knowledge of campaigning is directly
proportional to the length of time one has been reading rec.games.frp.*.
*That* is utter nonsense.

>
>>You have your beliefs, and I have mine, but in the end it is the net
>>that will decide.  I'm sure that either of us will accept the results
>>from a formal CFV.
>
>    Whether or not you accept it, or I accept it is irrelevant. If it is
>not accepted as a valid group by the site administrators then the group
>will never exist, because they won't create it at their sites.
>
What is your point? All I said was I am sure that either of use will accept
the results of a formal CFV!
Xref: sparky news.groups:20382 rec.music.synth:17805
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 92 08:54:09 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab

In <1992Nov5.212548.569@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>I don't know how concrete you want it, but there are BBS echos to which
>the group is echoed. The members cannot reply to a call for votes even
>if they wanted to. Is this good enough for you? 

I have a vague feeling that this question has been raised before, and
the consensus then was that those BBS echos are not Usenet per se, so
it is not a terrible blow to voting guidelines that they are not able
to vote.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD : Rec.Music.College or Soc.College-Radio
Date: 6 Nov 1992 18:28:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, gusbergi@idbsu.edu () says:

> I am interested in the feedback involved in a newsgroup, unmoderated,
>concerning college music and college radio stations.  I am not sure if they
>would be best served as two separate newsgroups or if they are strong enough to

No need for new groups -- these forums already
 have several newsgroups.

rec.radio.noncomm 
rec.radio.broadcasting
rec.music.*
alt.music.*
alt.rave

rec.radio.noncomm is the main group for college
 radio stations, and is currently underused as
 it is.  Please join in.
-- 
Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD
From: F36SI@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Creation of talk.politics.model-un
Date: 3 Nov 92 17:53:46 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Looking for support to start talk.politics.model-un.
    For more info on the Model UN, email f36si@cunyvm or
    f36si@cunyvm.cuny.edu.
Peace -
Matt
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: 108116@adpdp2.lanl.gov (108116)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.shakespeare
Followup-To: news.groups
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory, EMVAX
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:35:00 GMT

In article <Bx72Dt.J1o@uunet.uu.net>, lidz@midway.uchicago.edu (adam lidz) writes...
>I would like to propose the following group for discussion, and hopefully
>creation:
>rec.arts.shakespeare
> 

YES DO!  It may be one of the more worthwhile ones on the net!
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 13 Nov 1992 22:56:21 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov13.150755.10384@daimi.aau.dk>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk's message of Fri, 13 Nov 92 15:07:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.150755.10384@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

   If Chip Salzenberg doesn't mind I'll backup his Patently false statement
   with some arguments:

   It (the "caring" group) is open to anyone who knows
   how how to participate, and that knowledge is readily available to
   even the greenest newbie if he will but read news.announce.newusers.

   That explains clearly why no "net experience" is needed.

It's even simpler.  You just have to read one post.  The CFV,
which acronym is defined in the first line of the post.

Nobody is actively trying to keep anybody in the dark.  Help us try to
get out the info.  Newsadmins and vote takers are just volunteers too.
(See my volunteers post.)
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: martelli@cadlab.sublink.org (Alex Martelli)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:25:11 GMT
Organization: CAD.LAB S.p.A., Bologna, Italia

khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid) writes:
	...
:are waiting for the first coming of the Messiah.  Muslims are awaiting
:his second coming too.  Buddhist, Hindus and others are waiting for
                        ^^^^^^^^^^
:some Messianic person's advent who, in a strikingly similar way among
:all these creeds, would reform the world and bring it back to the way
:of righteousness.

I do NOT think you are qualified to make statements about what
"Buddhists" are, or are not, waiting for.  There are surely many
Buddhist schools (manyfold are the ways of Dharma).  Mainstream, though,
is that you do NOT wait for "some Messianic person's advent" - Nirvana
is HERE, NOW - "all" you have to do is Awake.  Should clarification of
this point be wanted, I would recommend Zazen on the Koan:  "If you meet
the Buddha in the road, kill Him" as suitable commentary on the idea of
"waiting" for your salvation to be effected by One *outside* you.
However, I am no master nor are you disciple: I just ask that you
please refrain from attributing beliefs to Buddhists, as similarly I
refrain from such unwarranted attributions to Muslims.

If you DO have messages relevant to Buddhists (or, of course, Hindus), I
am sure the excellent moderators of soc.religion.eastern will be pleased
to approve them, should you post them there; from that point of view, no
need, I opine, is currently felt for any new group.
-- 
Email: martelli@cadlab.sublink.org                   Phone: ++39 (51) 6130360
CAD.LAB s.p.a., v. Ronzani 7/29, Casalecchio, Italia   Fax: ++39 (51) 6130294 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes will not quit
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:41:19 GMT

In article <97308@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:

>In article <1992Nov12.011254.27520@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr) writes:
>
>>Tim, how about we just find Dave Hayes and use the immense resources of
>>the net to make his life a living hell?
>>
>>Or maybe we could just go beat him up?
>
>Please, no.  This discussion has gotten acrimonious enough without
>encouraging harassment or violence.

I agree.  My post in this vein was meant as a joke, based on the
relative similarities I perceived between Dave Hayes and some of the
other net.personalities in alt.fan.*.  I had no intention of
suggesting something like the above, even in jest; if that was how it
appeared, I apologize.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:00:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.174800.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>I don't think the first posting of this note got through, so here's a
>second try.
>
>In article <Bx6600.K72@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>
>5. Discussion of campaigns. Pardon me, but you say that no campaigns are
>discussed in rec.games.frp.*? Are you out of your mind? The campaign
>includes every single piece of rolegames: setting, characters, rules,
>and everything else. EVERY SINGLE ROLEPLAYING DISCUSSION NEWSGROUP IS
>FULL OF CAMPAIGN DISCUSSIONS! If you have seen no discussion of
>campaigns in these newsgroups I can only assume you have never read
>them.
>
To answer your questions in order.
  1. No, I don't say that no games are discussed in rec.games.frp.*
  2. No, I'm not out of my mind.

Since you've jumped to so many conclusions, I must conclude that you
are a tabloid reporter....

>And here's the central problem with your proposal. We used to have a
>single group to discuss everything to do with rolegames. It was called
>rec.games.frp. It was the largest discussion group on usenet, with well
>over one hundred messages per day. Internal pressures forced us to
>subdivide it into several newsgroups, some for discussion and some for a
>low volume of high quality postings. Now you want to start a newsgroup,
>your very own newsgroup which you will moderate, that covers everything
>that was in rec.games.frp. 

First of all, no one else has come forward volunteering to moderate the
newsgroup.  I am not apposed to anyone else applying for the position.

Second, I strongly doubt that anyone besides you will truly believe that
.campaign covers everything that was covered by .frp.  By that logic,
my charter, which lists only *four* acceptible types of post, should include
every single aspect of .frp gaming.  If you believe that .frp gaming can
be reduced to four narrowly defined post classifications, you are sadly
mistaken.

>the newsgroup that large, then what will be your charter? Every time you
>post you say something else about your charter, until it has become as
>paradoxical and all-encompassing as a book of zen koans.
>

I'm sorry if you believe that proposed newsgroups should not change their 
charter as discussion unfolds.  I sincerely doubt that anyone else holds
your view that I should have completely ignored all suggestions for 
improvement to the charter I have received, in order to keep it simple
enough for you to understand.
From: ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu (Laird Nelson)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:11:45 GMT
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Dave Hayes (dave@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov) wrote:

> [*] Vote taker
> 
> As a clearly biased member of this discussion, I am asking for a volunteer
> neutral vote taker to run the vote. It would be impossible for me to run
> it as it stands now. 

Were it to pass, would you honor it?  I think not.

LAiRD

--
ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu           |
ljnelson@amh.amherst.edu            |          The Quintet-essential.
(413) 542-2932                      |
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: How the name change affects the users of rec.music.synth
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 13 Nov 1992 18:01:22 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: lazlo@triton.unm.edu's message of Thu, 12 Nov 92 23:14:06 GMT

In article <_ydqbkc@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

   Some sites will, as soon as the new group is created, alias the old group
   into the new one.  (That means that when you're reading r.m.m.s, you'll
   also automatically see messages that were posted to r.m.s.  You might
   consider suggesting this to your site admin as well, as it makes things
   go much smoother.)  Some newsreaders (such as nn) can do this as well.

Good idea as a temporary measure only.  Aliases that remain for long
allow users and admins to forget about the vote that deleted the old
group.  Remove the alias when the rmgroup arrives.

   > I want there to be one group with all the synth discussion.

   The faster everyone changes over to using rec.music.makers.synth, the
   easier the changeover will be.  Things will be a little confusing in
   the two groups, but only for a short time. 

Unattended undead aliases help old groups stay around longer than
they should, and confuse people when they can't followup.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: "Marek Lugowski" <marek@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: where is the RESULT of voting on rec.arts.poems.urdu? / Marek
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:13:44 -0500

According to Ali's Call for Votes for rec.arts.poems.urdu, the
voting was to end on 4 November, the minimum 21 day period stipulated
by the Guidelines (see news.announce.newusers, "How to Create a Newsgroup").

It is a full week later and no RESULT has been posted anywhere, with
news.announce.newgroup the official, moderated, place to look.

Here are the portions of the Guidlines pertinent to interpreting the RESULT.

"The Result

1) At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker must post the
   vote tally and the E-mail addresses and (if available) names of the voters
   received to news.announce.newgroups and any other groups or mailing lists
   to which the original call for votes was posted. The tally should include
   a statement of which way each voter voted so that the results can be
   verified.

2) AFTER the vote result is posted, there will be a 5 day waiting period,
   beginning when the voting results actually appear in 
   news.announce.newgroups, during which the net will have a chance to
   correct any errors in the voter list or the voting procedure.

3) AFTER the waiting period, and if there were no serious objections that might
   invalidate the vote, and if 100 more valid YES/create votes are received
   than NO/don't create AND at least 2/3 of the total number of valid votes
   received are in favor of creation, a newgroup control message may be sent 
   out.  If the 100 vote margin or 2/3 percentage is not met, the group should 
   not be created."

				-- Marek

Ali, deliver the goods.
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:18:14 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Alan D. Cabrera writes

> The reason I would like to see those groups moderated is that r.g.n
> posters are notorious for their lack of self-control and going off on a
> tangent.  I myself don't need to be THE moderator, I just want to make
> sure that the discussion sticks to announcements and programming
> stuff.  When I posted the RFD I just put my name in.

Perhaps if more discussion could've taken place, someone would've stepped  
forward to moderate it.  You never asked.  

> Ideally, there would be a set of moderators.  That way, if one went on
> vacation the group wouldn't grind to a halt.  Also remember that the
> same incentive that makes a netrek server god even-handed, if he/she is
> a tyrant no one will play on their server, is the same incentive for a
> moderator to be timely and even handed, if he/she isn't no one will use
> the group.

A single moderator won't fly with me.  I have no desire to see less than 3  
moderators of any one group.

> > Anyhow, where did this come from? I don't remember seeing and real 
> > discussion of any sort of reorg in r.g.n recently. I'm mot sure if a 
> > reorg is really needed right now. In terms of traffic, I show 189 
> > articles in my news spool directory and that is with a 4 day expire.

> I tried to discuss it on r.g.n and got harrassed for not doing it the 
> proper way and posting an RFD.  I'm only following the rules posted
> by the gods at uunet.uu.net.  I will send you a copy of those rules.

Well, I don't want to upset the network gods, but it was pretty stupid for  
the discussion to leave rec.games.netrek, in my opinion.  No call for  
discussion should really occur here...what can you discuss in a group that  
gets hundreds of new messages every day?

> flame wars on r.g.n, or any un moderated group for that matter, doesn't
> happen on a regular basis.  Anyway 99% of those 189 articles is
> garbage; typically people with whinney remarks about other teams and
> players.

And?  I'd better open a window so the breeze can blow your point my  
direction...

> Alan Cabrera				internet:  adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu

Rob