HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson)
Subject: Last Posting (For A While) & FTP Update Announcement
Organization: Tellabs, Inc., IL
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 04:06:48 GMT

I'm not sure *why* I still have network access, but it seems that Tellabs
(in Lisle, IL and WSW suburb of Chicago) has seen fit to leave my link and
account active, but they have and I'm rather glad, since it gives me the
chance to announce that the second edition of the Classical Music archive
files have been installed at the archive site cs.uwp.edu (131.210.1.4) and 
are available for all of you that have been eagerly awaiting this new 
information (I won't be transmitting it via the newsgroup as it is now 
approximately 1MB).  I have added approximately 630 new releases of 
totaling 750 CDs, so the updates were rather large.  The lists now 
reference nearly 2000 CDs.

I've also done a little reformmating for the PostScript versions which, I 
think, improves their readability. These are available at the FTP site as 
well.

So, as I sit surveying my life as taped-up in brown cardboard boxes (a true 
network junkie - my computer system is the last thing to be dismantled and
packed away), I'm looking forward to the challenge of the new job, but not 
necessarily looking forward to the next couple of days.  We're traveling
from Chicago to D.C. with 8 animals (6 cats, 2 dogs) in two cars, and the 
experience should prove to be memorable.  I plan to be connected again very 
soon, and will resubscribe at that time.  If you have any questions or 
comments about the Archive, please hold them until you see another posting 
from me in the newsgroup, and direct them to the new address.  My mail will 
be forwarded (I hope), but I don't know about the speed or reliability of 
this function.

Your Humble Servant,

Dave


-- 

Dave
lampson@tellabs.com

For detailed lists of Recommended Classical CDs, Basic Repertoire and Buying
Guide access cs.uwp.edu (131.210.1.4) by anonymous FTP, or email me for info.

Contribute to the rec.music.classical biography project!  Email me your bio!

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal)
Subject: Gliere Horn Concerto
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Public Macs, Academic Computing, Yale University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:30:52 GMT

I am desparately seeking a Philips Compact Disc with the Gliere Horn
Concerto. The soloist is Hermann Baumann with the Leipzig Gewandhaus
Orchestra. I was told that the CD had recently gone out of print. If anyone
has a copy they want to sell or knows where I can get a copy, please let me
know. Please reply by e-mail.  Thanks!

--
Adam Ronthal	       e-mail: ronthal-adam@yale.edu
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Last Night of the Proms / words
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:03:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.172825.8557@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
[...]
>>Arne: Rule Brittania
>> 
>I don't know the verses, but the chorus goes:
>
>Rule, Brittania! 
>Brittania rule the waves!
>Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

That's Britannia *rules* the waves...

The first verse runs thusly:

When Britain first at heavens (pronounced h'ens) command
Arose from out the azure main
(arose, arose, arose from out the azure main)
This was the charter, the charter of the land
And guardian angels sang this refrain (I think - even though it doesn't rhyme).

>
>Now you know why I don't know the verses.

I can't remember the second - but nobody can..

>> William Blake / Parry : Jerusalem
>> 
>The poem, which is likely to be in something like the Oxford Book of English
>Verse, starts:
>
>And did those feet in ancient time,
>Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the hol lamb of God
In England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon those clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire
Bring me my spear - oh clouds unfold
Bring me my chariots of fire (and you wondered where the film got its title?)
i shall not cease from mortal strife
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
'Til we have built Jerusalam
In England's green and pleasant land.

Hardly your tub-thumping jingoistic tosh..

England's second national anthem - should be the first if you ask me.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Recordings of S. Richter
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:20:42 GMT

In article <17m4pdINNt6f@roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu> korkosz@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu (Richard Korkosz) writes:
>Hi folks, 
>
>	I'm interested in hearing opinions on CD recordings made by 
>Sviatoslav Richter.  What performances really knock your socks off?

I'll limit myself to these:

1. Bach, _Well-Tempered Clavier_, Le Chante du Monde (4 CDs).  (If anyone 
	asks why the term "magisterial" is so often applied to Richter, 
	play them this.)

2. Schumann, _Symphonic Etudes_, JVC (also incl. Beethoven Op.90).  The 
	premier socks-knocker-offer.

3. Scriabin, Sonatas 2-5-9, Etudes, Preludes, Arkadia.  Easily eclipses 
	the DG performance.

4. Beethoven, _Hammerklavier_, Stradivarius.  My favorite piano record.  
	Period.

Glad you asked.
From: gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Summary: FYI
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:27:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsi.1992Aug25.172706.10715
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug23.052428.6068@Princeton.EDU>,
roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> No.  Socialist realism is *not* marxist music or marxist anything else.
> SR was simply a stick with which to beat people; it was the opposite
> of the equally menaingless "formalism."  There is nothing in Marx to
> support SR as expounded in any of its constantly shifting formulations,
> nor in the writings of Marxists who had much to do with Marx.  

I think it was the Russian Vladimir Voinovich (sp?), a gadfly who
lived quite on the edge during the Brezhnev era (and one wonders
what happened to in the great upheaval), who defined socialist
realism as "praise of the current leadership in terms which are
comprehensible to them."

               *** ***
Ken Perlow   ***** *****
25 Aug 92   ****** ******   8 Fructidor An CC
            *****   *****   gadfly@ihlpa.ATT.COM
             ** ** ** **
...L'AUDACE!   *** ***   TOUJOURS DE L'AUDACE!  ENCORE DE L'AUDACE!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Many clarinets -- One horn.
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:40:18 EDT
 <1992Aug26.181851.27979@aero.org> <1992Aug26.193203.12678@Princeton.EDU> <26AUG199216311361@rover.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <26AUG199216311361@rover.uchicago.edu>, frank@rover.uchicago.edu
writes:

> Worst I remember was trying to play the first movement of Borodin's
> second symphony. The part was written for A clarinet, so we had to transpose
> on the fly for B-flat clarinet. (It wasn't too bad on A clarinets, but the
> A clarinets the school had were really poor.) I ended up transcribing the
> middle fast passage, and when I was done, it ended up in 5 or 6 sharps, and
> if you counted double-flats and double-sharps, as 2, it had more accidentals
> than notes.
> 
> 	What I want to know is, how could anybody play passages like that
> on the earlier Albert system clarinets? (Music for clarinet 4-hands perhaps?)

I think you have hit the nail on the head as to WHY the A clarinet and C
clarinet (among others) continue to exist.  Until the current system was
devised, it was very difficult if not impossible to play in distant keys on a
clarinet (ie, a key with many sharps or flats).  This was more true of the
clarinet than the flute because the clarinet overblows the twelfth rather than
the octave and has more complex fingerings to bridge the gap, though there was
a d-flat piccolo used in bands, and I think a d-flat flute as well.
	The reason that we settled on an f horn but clarinets continue to come
in multiple sizes is probably twofold -- first of all, as has been mentioned,
hornists had one horn with several crooks which changed its pitch. 
Clarinettists had to have multiple instruments so the finger holes would be in
the proper proportion (lengthening an e-flat clarinet to the length of a b-flat
clarinet with a mouthpiece extension would put the instrument completely out of
tune).  Second of all, as has also been mentioned, an awkward fingering for a
hornist, who has four valves on a modern double horn, is much less awkward than
an awkward fingering for a clarinettist, who has many more than four keys.

Peter Hoogenboom
phoogenb@ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: Manners, children please...
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:22:13 GMT

maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick) writes:
: 
: |> : |> [Cage] could not have sat down and written a serious, tonally
: |> : |> unambiguous, conventionally orchestrated, popular symphony.
: |> 
: |> : * How do you know?
: |> [good evidence that no such work was actually written]
: Your contention was that he was incapable.

No, your perceived implication of my comment was. Perhaps I was being
too vague. I felt both from Cage's writing and work that their was an
awareness of the acts of composing that might have hindered him. 
Much as a tightrope walker cannot allow himself the luxury of
examination. Otherwise, the creator examining the creator examining...
tends to run into navel-gazing. Now, granted Cage had a huge navel in
which to gaze, but it was still navel-gazing.

I feel that Satie had a similar problem. Always the joker, becoming the
joke. I wish Satie had written fewer Flabby Preludes and more like
Socrates/Messe de Pauvre.

: |> Are you saying that (eg) Simpson 9th or 10th Symphonies are like any of these?
: Don't know them.  Cage wouldn't have written Simpson's music in any case.

Granted. I simply would point out to those who don't know that Simpson
is proof that the great symphonic tradition is not dead, and than there
is still plenty to say in the genre.

: You asked whether Cage had
: written anything which could be appreciated outside "the bounds of"
: his aesthetic.  I asked what the bounds were, and you responded with a
: criticism of the bounds of his actual production.  Obviously you could
: not have intended this usage of aesthetic in your original question.

No - I was using the b.o.h.a.p. as an indicator of the b.o.h.a.
Part of his a. was the notion (perhaps implied, but partially explicit)
that the music of the past was no longer relevant - still valid, but no
longer relevant. This semantic shifting of the ground makes any form of
debate very difficult indeed. Cage's aesthetic partially invalidates
current expression of modern music in traditional forms.

I quite like Cage's stuff. I love Simpson.
I think his 9th is the one of the finest large works to have been
written in the last several decades. In my opinion it took Simpson as
much curage and vision to write his 9th in the prevailing post-12,
post-Cage, post-post-modernist aesthetic climate as it would have for
Cage to write some of his ground-breaking stuff.

: |> What do you write like, anyway?
: My music has been described as "tonal Milton Babbitt."

Impressive. Is any recorded? 

My music was described by my cousin Niall as "woeful" and "f**king depressing". 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 04:48:27 GMT


In article <1992Aug18.030503.26388@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU writes:
>Surely the correct list of great composers would have to be
>1)Beethoven (late period)
>2)Beethoven (middle period)
>3)Beethoven (early period)
>
>Mark C.

>>First of all, Bach should be on the first place of the list of great
>>composers.

>>If I had to make of my favorite Van Beethovens, it certainly would be

 >>   1. Van Beethoven (early period)
  >>  2. Van Beethoven (middle period)
  >>  3. Van Beethoven (late period)

>>Maybe I am influenced by my dad, because he would certainly want to
>>have it in reversed order.

>>Maarten

No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.

Mark C.

-- 
>>` CWI, P.O.Box 4079      The easiest answers are the most
>> 1009 AB Amsterdam      difficult to find 
>> The Netherlands
>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
                                      ^^^^
another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: More on CAGE CAGE CAGE!
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:09:27 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Aug30.012834.2631@highlite.uucp> alan@highlite.uucp (Alan McConnell) writes:
>And I say:  Cage was not a _composer_.  A philosopher, surely,
>an aesthete, of course, a preacher, certainly.  But not a person
>who was primarily interested in "placing sounds
>together"( = cum + pono, to place with - or is my etymology all
>hooey).  I am going primarily by what he himself said, as quoted
>by various people in this thread.
[...]
>It seems that Cage was interested
>in seeing how the sounds mixed and sloshed around and found their
>way into our ears, while a _composer_, in the common-sense way in
>which I am using the term, is usually a person who has a . .
>I'd have to invent an aural equivalent of "vision" . . and does
>his/her best to bring that inner-ear-heard concept to audible
>reality.

Some light may be shed from how Cage related to his teacher, Arnold
Schoenberg.  Someone asked Schoenberg about his American pupils,
whether he'd had any that were interesting, and Schoenberg's first
reply was to say that none were interesting, but then smiled and
said, "There was one," and he named Cage.  Then he said, "Of course
he's not a composer, but he's an inventor--of genius."

Cage did, however, see himself as a composer:

CAGE:  "I literally worshipped him [Schoenberg].  I tried to do my
work as well as I could for him, and he invariably complained that
none of his pupils, including me, did enough good work.  If I followed
the rules too strictly he would say, 'Why don't you take a little more
liberty?' and then I would break the rules, he'd say, "Why do you
break the rules?'  I was in a large class at USC hen he said quite
bluntly to us all, 'My purpose in teaching you is to make it
impossible for you to write music,' and when he said that, I
revolted, not against him, but against what he said.  I
determined then and there, more than ever, to write music."
			[--Jeff Goldberg (1976)]

>We all seem to react differently to this.  Some of us say, go to
>it Cage baby.  Others of us say, charlatan, crank.  But if one
>accepts my assertion that Cage was a "composer" only in an
>extended, not-usually-accepted sense, then the argument becomes
>clearer(I really mean, murkier).

What has happened is that the definition of 'composer' has
expanded, yet still includes those who fit the 'common-sense' term.

>And now I run for cover - - back to sci.econ, where the folks
>_really_ know how to flame  ;-)

Did we mention the Cage's friendship with Buckminster Fuller?
(and influences between...)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
From: johnson@physics.berkeley.edu (Steve Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: More on CAGE CAGE CAGE!
Date: 30 Aug 92 21:04:20
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
Reply-To: johnson@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: alan@highlite.uucp's message of 30 Aug 92 01:28:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.012834.2631@highlite.uucp> alan@highlite.uucp (Alan McConnell) writes:
> 
> 'Twould be a pity to let this subject die - let's keep it going
> at least till Christmas.  I haven't posted yet, so it's my turn
> to slosh around jet fuel and strike a few matches.
> 

Thanks, but we have plenty of matches.  We are just waiting for Mr.
Yoder to tell us the 'metaphysical value judgements' in Beethoven's
seventh (for example).  If you happen to know *the* answer, i'm sure
we can roast you instead.  I think i smell smoke already...

--Steve

> -- 
> Alan McConnell             "What wondrous life is this I lead!
> Pixel Analysis              Ripe apples drop about my head . ."
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Joining the dots ...
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:19:29 GMT

In article <41170007@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Chris Robson) writes:
>Hi,
>	I am looking for a book on the development of musical notation. I
>guess there must be 000s of them out there, so I will give my 'wish list'.
>If anyone knows of a book that comes close, then I would be really grateful
>to hear of it.

>	Wish List:

>		o Covers development of notation from Plainchant neumes (s?)
>			to C20th.
>		o Explains basic history driving development, and introduction
>			to interpreting old MS.
>		o Not _too_ dry and academic - my theory is OK but not great.
>		o Lots of prety colour plates of example MS.
>		o Examples of composers own handiwork: e.g. Tchaikovsky's
>			jottings on the back of an old cig. packet whilst on the
>			18:12 from Waterloo
>		o About $5 and available now from my local newsagent.

>OK, I know my last wish will not be fulfilled - but any pointers for the
>others?

No single book will do all this.  Some pointers:

--Richard (?) Rastall's survey of the history of notation.  Good basic
intro; covers a lot of ground.

--Apel's _Notation of Polyphonic Music_.  Get the latest (1961?) edn.
for info, the earliest for clarity of the plates.  Standard grad-school
text, arranged somewhat strangely, but full of good stuff.  Some explanations
(e.g., of proportion) are a bit weird.

--In the Musikgeschichte in Bildern series, _Schriftbild der mehrstimmigen
Musik_.  Even if you speak no German, the plates are worth it.  Many of
them are partially transcribed.  Beautiful book, as are many of the others
in this E. German series.  I don't know about current availability.

--A book on 20th C notation.  I forget the name of that German classic...

--The _Grove_ article as a guide.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:18:41 GMT

In article <92244.141510U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> <U58402@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>In article <Btp9nG.MuI@news.udel.edu>, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) says:

>>I have an opinion, an unpopular one.  I hate them.  I think they wreck
>>the live experience of an opera, and turn it into television (I don't
>>despise television, but a live theatrical experience is something else).
>>This gives us a reading-medium and a visual-medium that our eyes can
>>flip back and forth between, to keep us from being bored....

>As opposed to flipping from the opera to your program and back
>again, I suppose?

No opposition there. Flipping back and forth between the opera and the
program kills the experience just as effectively.

>Well, I may get into trouble on this one, as I have not seen many operas
>translated into English. However, I would suppose that the rhythms that
>are inherent in spoken English may not translate well into music written
>for, say, a French libretto. In order to fit sentences into the meter
>and pattern of the melody, some stilted language may be unavoidable.

Not unavoidable, but hard to avoid.  Good translations for singing are
VERY difficult to do.  But not impossible.  And yes, something is lost.
But something may be gained as well.

>Also, musical climaxes may not correspond to climaxes in dialogue. (I
>imagine a scene in which a long high note falls upon the word "death" in
>the original libretto, but falls on the word "of" in the English
>translation.)

Again, an argument for great care in translating.  It CAN be done well.
(Look at Andrew Porter's work.)  It often is NOT done well, and then
it's godawful.

>After the John Cage discussion, I should be hesitant to draw an analogy
>:@), but I think that the use of supertitles and English translation of
>operas is like seeing a foreign film in subtitled and dubbed versions.
>As for myself, I prefer subtitles. And one might make the point that in
>film, the visual element is of more importance than in opera.

I don't know that I would agree on the latter point.  But in any case
the analogy is not really very helpful.  The media ARE different after
all.  A film is not a "live" experience, after all -- you can see it
again, and you can even see it different ways different times (dubbed,
subtitled, neither).  An opera performance, once finished, is
unretrievable *as a live experience*.

And note that I'm all in favor of subtitling operas on tv and film.
We've already left the live experience behind and gone into a different
medium, so we might as well use the medium as advantageously as
possible.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: bobs@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bob Sutton)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bottom ten operas
Date: 29 Aug 92 10:47:55 GMT
Organization: *blech*

In article <92241.144553KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>Add Arabella, Sonnambula,and Puritani  to my ten worst list as well! It may
>take me another year or so of listening to Semiramide to move it from my faves
>to the pits. I just get a huge kick out of it.

What about such wonderful operas such as "Nixon in China" and "Civil Wars"?

-- 
Bob Sutton                        Love, most bitterly and fiercely oppresses
bobs@gnu.ai.mit.edu		  those who fight it than those who offer
al876@cleveland.freenet.edu       their servitude.    -- Ovid (Amores)