From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:02:04 GMT
 <1k3r23INN7rk@digex.digex.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1k3r23INN7rk@digex.digex.com>
dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

> In article <1993Jan26.012324.13204@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> chesky@stanmusial.austin.ibm.com () writes:
> >>
> >>As a general rule, yes. This seems to be an exception. But we have no
> >>indication that Bilbo and Frodo went to Valinor proper; my reading is
> >>that they went to Tol Eressea (aka "Elvenhome"), an island near
> >>Valinor.  This may count as a "suburb" of the Undying Lands, and the
> >>restriction may be less rigorous.
> >>-- 
> >>Andrew Solovay   
> 
> But they were travelling with Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.  I cannot
> see these personages being thus restricted.  Or do you envision that
> the Last Ship first stops off at Tol Eressea, Cirdan announces  
> "Mortals ashore, only immortals can continue beyond these parts,"
> the hobbits jump off, and the rest continue on their merry way.

Why not...do you have any references that prove otherwise?

> A little less flippantly, does anyone recall whether Tol Eressea
> was included in the restriction on the Numenoreans: ie, were they
> forbidden from landing there as well as landing at Valinor
> proper?
> 
Yes, the Numenoreans were forbidden from landing at Tol Eressea, but I
think the key word here is forbidden.  Is it so difficult to think that
certain men (or hobbits) could not be welcomed to Valinor without
serious consequences?

> >I thought the exception was made for Bilbo, Frodo and Sam because they 
> >had been ring bearers (I don't know about Gimli).  What I've always
> >wondered though, is if this was really an exception granted by the Valar 
> >as a reward for the sacrifice and hardship that they endured as ring 
> >bearers or whether, after possessing the Ring, they were truly immortal
> >creatures now so there is no exception being made at all.
> 
> I think it is fairly clear that the longevity granted by the ring
> ends with the end of the ring.  Compare Bilbo at the Council of Elrond,
> still a pretty perky hobbit, if getting on a bit, to Bilbo only a
> year later at the return of Frodo to Rivendell.  At that time, 
> he has definitely grown senile.  Note also Arwen's words to
> Frodo at the start of "Many Partings" in ROK:  (Frodo says he 
> was "grieved when among all the household of Elrond I saw
> that [Bilbo] was not come."  Arwen: "Do you wonder at that,
> Ring-bearer?  ... For you know the power of the thing which is
> now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing
> away.  But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you.  He
> is ancient in years now, according to his kind, and he awaits you,
> for he will not again make any long journey save one."

Good points...

> I have always thought that the time you held the ring did not count
> against your age: add the time before you had the ring to the time
> after you had the ring to get the equivalent age.  After the 
> destruction of the ring, however, the rules change, and those years
> start to count again.  This would work well in Bilbo's case, and
> would just barely work for Gollum (yes, it had been a long time
> since he lost the ring, but he was a young hobbit when he first
> got it and hobbits are awfully long lived.  Figure an equivalent
> age of eighties or nineties for Gollum in LOTR - a bit old, but
> not prohibitive for a hobbit).

I think your right on the money here.  Gollum himself made a statement
in LotR that if the ring were destroyed, he would be dust.  IMHO, if
the ring were destroyed without Gollum falling into Mt Doom with it,
the 400-500 years that he had the ring would have caught up with him
all at once and he would have simply crumbled into dust.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)