From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:07:01 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>I'm sorry you think there are dead certainties in ancient history. This
>shows a very naive attitude towards historiography in general. All I am
>saying is that if our ancient sources are read without any modern
>political preconceptions as to the origins of the ancient Macedonians,
>they most naturally suggest that Macedonian was a distinct language to
>Greek not a dialect of Greek. Moreover modern research supports this
>reading. Of course when you start with the prejudice that the
>Macedonians were Greeks your perception may alter rapidly...

I will only attempt to answer this part of your posting.  The article
was too long for me to handle ... :-)

I am not a historian as you Andy.  However, I tend to think that any
historian -or any scientist for that matter-, when trying to make an
assessment should look at ALL the evidence, and not only at some isolated
facts.  You base your assessment that the Macedonians were not Greeks
on a few facts:

1) Thucidedes called the Macedonians barbarians, when he was arguing
AGAINST Philip.
2) Isocrates did not call them Greeks (but he did not call them
barbarians either).
3) Alexander claimed Greekness for himself but not for his people
as a whole.
4) The tombs of the Macedonians were different from Greek ones.
5) The social structure of the Macedonian kingdom was different than
most Greek states.
6) ? (Am I missing anything else?)

Sorry, but none of these facts is proof that Macedonians were not Greeks.
At best, they are INDICATIONS.  Instead of trying to refute your inter-
pretation of these facts I will raise some questions which (I think)
indicate that the Macedonians were Greeks.  After all, like a detective,
you have to look at the WHOLE picture if you want to make a good case.
To grab on some reference from a historian as a proof for your theory
is, at the least, naive.

1) If the Macedonian language was not Greek, why was that there are no
written documents in this language?  On the other hand, there are
numerous samples of Greek writings in coins etc. in Macedonia.
2) How come the names of all Macedonian men (at least the ones that I
know) have Greek origin? The same with the word Macedon itself.
Fil-ippos
Alex-andros
Aristo-telhs
etc.
Isn't it weird for some people to call themselves in another language?
3) Since Alexander was Greek, isn't it strange that his people weren't?
After all wouldn't they revolt against the oppressing Greek dynasty?
Is there any evidence to show that the Argeads conquered the Macedonians?
And why did Alexander wanted to participate in the Olympic games in the
first place?
4) How come there are so many Greek educated Macedonians (Aristotel comes
to mind) with so many significant contributions to the Greek civilization?
5) How come the Macedonians had the same religion as the Greeks?
6) Where did the Macedonians come from if they were not Greeks?

There are a lot more questions to be answered before we can say that
Macedonians were not Greeks.  So, before you make (or adopt) a theory
for the non-Greekness of Macedonia, look at the whole picture first.
You might have been too involved in some details to miss the forest
from the trees.

>Andy

Sincerely,
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10803 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9655