HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: How much "should" one pay for used gear?
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 08:36:34 GMT

Sort of a generic question, but what should one expect to pay for used gear?
I know that most lofts worthy of the name will get you about 80% of list
price on things like canopies.  If you really push hard, you might be able
to cut a deal down to 75 or 70%.  Presumably if you buy used from a friend,
you're going to base your calculations on what you'd shell out to buy the
same canopy new, and then settle on some reasonable fraction of that.
What is reasonable for the new ZP canopies?  They do have an awfully long
lifetime, so they shouldn't depreciate that much.  On the other hand, it
isn't new, and it's not the colors I would have picked had I the choice.

For a concrete question, apart from the general considerations above, I'm
considering a friend's Sabre 170.   It'll probably have about 50 jumps on it,
and certainly less than 100.  He wants to go to a Sabre 150, so he's selling
it.  What should I offer him?  Or what should I be prepared to pay?  The
thing lists at about $1450, with microline.  80% of that is $1160.  Think
I'd be out of line offering him $900?  $950?  Much more than that, and I'd
probably buy new.  (And if I went new, I'd think about a Nova, instead.)

Opinions?



-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Douglas R Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:45:39 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1992Aug31.185924.25915@eng.ufl.edu>, esj@viper.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson) writes:

What's the difference between having an SOS (pulling the reserve handle)
and an RSL (cutting away?)???

-- 
Doug Puchalski						drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: Clouds?! (was Re: the best)
Keywords: safety, legality, VFR, clouds
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 19:22:50 GMT

In article <16331@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> bonitz@ebony.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Bob Bonitz) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.021101.1412@leland.Stanford.EDU> eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
>>>	By the way, does anybody know if a plane and skydiver have
>>>ever collided midair?  
>>>
>>According to a brochure I picked up at a Skydive/GA airport, there has
>>never been a collision between a jumper and an aircraft (did they
>
>There has been at least one collision betweeen a skydiver and an airplane.
>It occurred over the DZ at Lake Otay near San Diego.  The freefalling jumper
>struck a Navy C-130 headed for nearby Brown Field, I believe.  The jumper was
>killed, but as I recall the pilot did not even know the plane had been struck.
>The irony of the situation is that the Navy SEAL demo team trains at Brown
>Field so you would think that the pilot would have realized the danger in 
>flying over DZs.

Perhaps the brochure said "never a collision between a skydiver and a 
General Aviation aircraft....."  Don't remember exactly, and I don't have
the brochure anymore.....I just thought it was interesting.
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Need Expert Advice...
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:47:00 GMT

Reply-to: Mike.Mcnamara@p0.f64.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Mcnamara)
Fido-To: chad howard

Call United States Parachute Assoc in Alexandria, VA

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Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: how often does this happen?
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 01:25:23 GMT

a round reserve was out the other day, and i couldn't find a main
in the air for awhile. i finally saw _something_ falling and figgered
someone had a bag-lock. turns out a student on his first 10 second delay
looked-reached-pulled his cutaway. predictably, he then looked-reached
and pulled his ripcord. THANKFULLY he then proceeded to look-reach-pull
his reserve handle :-))) he claimed there was no RSL installed, which 
i tend to doubt, i thought maybe it didn't occur to him that it left
with his main, but i don't know. the BSRs of course require an RSL on
all student jumps, and i was going to argue that our DZ has always been
(to my knowledge) compliant, but i realize now that my 3 PRCPs were not
successive, so blow that. still, i would be quite surprised if the 
student was in fact jumping without an RSL.

ANYWAY - i was wondering how often students pull the wrong handle.
i was actually a bit impressed that this fellow did, and realized it 
as quickly as he did. i was also impressed that he made another jump 
the same day. i was REALLY impressed that he stood up te landing, 
and thought the round was easy to control, but then i've lever landed 
one, so what do i know. (i hope i never have to land my 22'!)

it was pretty amusing watching him laughing with his friend/brother
and an older couple that i guessed to be his parents. i was SUPER
impressed that they were laughing about it with him. and it wasn't 
nervous laughter, it was genuine. they were all having a ball.
i hope he finishes the program.

also amusing was a lady of about 65-70 years that made her first tandem;
i asked her how it went when i saw her smile and she said:
"It was the best thing I've ever - well, let me just say it's the 
first of many." i hope she comes back for AFF :-)

cuuUYUut!

tim
(my voice cracks ;-)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: nws@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Eddie Roberts (The National Weather Service))
Subject: More questions from a begginer.
Organization: Atmospheric Technology Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 11:45:34 GMT


1. A 'front riser maneuver'.
	Why would I want to do it?
	Can you over do it (Can I pull down to muuch)?


2. A 'rear riser manever'
	I remember from AFF class rear risers could be used if
	something happend to your brake lines/toggles.
	My question is the same as for front risers :
		Can you over do this maneuver?


3. I sadly read in the September issue of Parachutist about the death
   of the AFF student. The conclusions stated that the student was 
   taught what to do if he had two parachutes out.

   I went through AFF so I'm sure I was taught what to do also.....
   but I don't remember :-o ... can someone expand on what the
   parachutist stated:

	... do not attempt to steer the parachutes. If they were
	not touching, cut away the main as long as the reserve 
	was fully inflated.

	1. If the two were touching and you were going to
	   land under both of them would you ever attempt
	   to steer?  Is steering more dangerous than any
	   other hazard (power lines, water , etc)?

	2. Any other advice on what to do in this situation?

4. Is there a good book for a person just of student status, plans on
   staying with the sport but doesn't know very much about the 
   sport.
   

	Thanks (again)
		Eddie	nws@stout.atd.ucar.edu
From: rss@gooey.eng-sun (Rich Scire)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Grave landing
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:30:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: fripp.1992Aug28.143004.24582
Reply-To: rss@gooey.eng-sun
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> I don't know, but I have noticed that almost all DZs are located near both a graveyard
> and a set of railroad tracks.

Not to mention a river.

Rich

---

Rich Scire   DoD #1341            Cadre Technologies
E-Mail:  rss@cadre.com            222 Richmond St., Providence RI  02903
Phone:  (401) 351-5950            FAX: (401) 351-7380
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: 11-Cell Canopy Question
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 15:27:09 GMT

Bill Hazlett claims his ZP fabric isn't as slippery as other fabrics;
is this true?

tim
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: New England drop zone & tandem question
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:00:12 GMT

Reply-to: Bill.Caefer@p0.f853.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Caefer)
Fido-To: romulus!nmc.ed.ray.com!smiles

To: romulus!nmc.ed.ray.com!smiles (Kevin Ruddy)

 r> Basically, I want to go to a drop zone that's close and that I can feel
 r> good about.  I've gotten recommendations about the DZ in Turners Falls, MA,
 r> and Pepperell, MA.  Oh, and one in Lebanon, ME, but I'm thinking that's
 r> more of a distance away than I want to travel.

I didn't know there was a DZ in Northhampton.  I've been to Lebanon, Pepperell, Turner's Falls, Ellington and Woodstock CT, and Taunton.  They are all fine.  You didn't say where you live though, so I can't judge distances.

 r> how she liked it and all.  She relayed to me that tandem is now a method
 r> of teaching?  Five tandem jumps and you end up somewhere in the AFF area?
 r> Is this true?  Is this *good*?  She said she got 33 seconds of free-fall,

If you know you are going to get into skydiving and are not just 'trying it out' then you should skip the tandems and go AFF.  It's an added expense.  Although doing ONE might be worthwhile.

Bill Caefer
D-7510
Los Angeles

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Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: legality question
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 04:03:06 GMT


i caught the tail end of a discussion today concerning heavy tandem 
passengers - here it'll cost you $.50/lb over 200 lbs more than 
the standard tandem cost. i've heard of people charging $1/lb no
matter what you weigh. one tandem master maintains that that's 
illegal discrimination - i disagree.

comments?
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: how often does this happen?
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:39:18 GMT

Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)
Fido-To: romulus!pta.pyramid.com.au!b

Monday August 31 1992, romulus!pta.pyramid.com.au!bob writes to Skydive:

 rpca> FYI, (in case anyones actually interested in anything outside the US),
 rpca> in Australia, we use a different system for students.  The reserve
 rpca> deployment system is called SOS for Single Operation System.  Its a
 rpca> combined cutaway handle and reserve handle.  Makes it easier to train
 rpca> emergency procedures.  If anything's wrong, then pull the big yellow
 rpca> handle.  It also means that the main ripcord is on the right side, SOS
 rpca> handle is on the left.  Very hard to confuse the two.  Although an
 rpca> occasional student still attempts it.

This is the system that I am currently using in Veedersburg Indiana, USA.
It is the exact example you just gave above, a SOS system.  When I get my
own rig, I will have to learn all over again.  :-)

I have just finished my 4th jump, (2nd PRCP).  I hope to do my 5th static line
and first Hop-n-Pop this weekend.  Providing I can afford it, I just did
the bills last night... OUCH!.  :-)

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From: Eric_J_Rainbolt@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: rig for sale
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 18:21:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Jalbert 252 main.  (Best accuracy canopy ever made.)
-350 jumps.  100% jumpable.  Nice soft openings, soft accurate landings.
26 foot lopo (low porosity)  reserve.  (just as reliable as a square).
-Blue and white canopy, but never had to use it.  Could have, but never did.
Two jumpsuits, one for big formations and one for fast rw.
Wonderhog container (forerunner of the vector by relative workshop).
-100% safe 3 point sytem.  new throwout -50 jumps.
-Blue and black, matches jumpsuit.  Nice fit for bigger frames.
-Packing Mat.  (for keeping container off the dirt).
-Packing string (invaluable skygod utensil.)

This rig is for:                     
1)  People just getting started and want a safe, docile canopy with
    a very slow decsent rate.  252 ads boast 11 ft/sec.     
2)  Anyone interested in accuracy competition.
3)  Somebody who wants two rigs so they can jump continuously.

I believe that I can make a deal for $650.00 dollars.

Extra bonus for acting quickly:  The packing card expires in 
two weeks.

make offers
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
                                 ^^^^^^^
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 01:14:26 GMT

>when ht to pull the main ripcord.  The mainside JM dumped out his main
>which activated the reserve (via RSL).  The reserve came out with line twists
>and nothing was done by the student to clear up the problem (the brakes were
>still stowed).  There is some speculation that the guy might have had a heart
>attack (he was getting up there in years).  I don't think that this is the
>type of fatality one could rig up as a suicide.  He landed under a spinning
>reserve.  It could have been survivable.  As for the financial troubles, I 
>haven't heard about it.  He showed up to the DZ in a Rolls though.
>
>I understand how these rumors get spread, but I don't think it is entirely
>necessary to broadcast obviously incomplete or bogus information over something
>like USENET.  Let's try to get the facts a little clearer.
>
Just saying what I heard, just like you. Geez, no wonder people don't
wanna post here- get your head bit off!
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: how often does this happen?
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:08:58 GMT

Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)
Fido-To: romulus!acad3.alaska.edu!fsb

Wednesday September 02 1992, romulus!acad3.alaska.edu!fsbgf writes to Skydive:

 rae> two cents worth in. I've just recently completed my AFF progression
 rae> by completing level seven *cheer*. The rigs I used have all had the

This is a change of subject, but would you mind posting your progression from
start to where you are now?  For example, I am going the "normal" route, via
static line.  I do 5 static line jumps, 3 of which are PRCP's, then on to a
couple Hop-N-Pops, 10 sec delays, 15 sec, 25 sec.  etc.  I noticed you said
level 7.  How many levels do you have to do before you come off student status?
I take it a level is 1 jump?  To be honest, I am not sure how many jumps I will
have to do to finish student status.  :-)


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From: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:26:03 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1992Sep1.021338.462@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church) writes:
>I don't work with students but wanted to throw this out to those who do.
>What about using an actual throwout on student rigs? 

We do, but not until they are on level 8.

In an AFF jump, a student trying to throw out a pilot chute is very
likey to entangle a jumpmaster.  Also, from a JM's point of view,
if I have to intercept/dump a student, I'd much rather have a R/C which can be
deployed from either side- or from under the student.

jerry
-- 
Domain: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu		    Jerry Sobieski
  UUCP:	uunet!mimsy!jerrys		University of Maryland
 Phone:	(301)405-6735		Institute for Advanced Computer Studies
 					College Park, Md 20742
From: koning@koning.enet.dec.com (Paul Koning)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: AADs
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:24:47 GMT
Reply-To: koning@koning.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Co., distributed systems architecture


This topic may well set off another vigorous debate, but I'll ask it anyway:
I'm looking for opinions on AADs, specifically on the Cypres.  

For example: (a) do you have one (b) do you want to get one, 
(c) would you recommend them to others (in particular to those with modest 
experience, e.g., around 80 jumps), (d) do you dislike them (if so, why?)

Comments via Mail would be welcome, or post them if you want to help stir
up the debate... :-)

Thanks.

	paul, a-13683
	koning@koning.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: schut@prl.philips.nl (Schut G)
Subject: Re: Please define a few abbreviations
Organization: none
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 07:10:41 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.103908.27070@pta.pyramid.com.au> bob@pta.pyramid.com.au (Robert Vernon) writes:
>
>>	The relative merits of each are still being argued 
>>	(Generally by the throwout guys.)
>
>Yeah.  They do seem to be the most insistent on starting arguments
>about them.  Us pull-outs are much more easy going.  The APF Instructor
>Manual has a statement in it saying "Pull-outs are dangerous.  Do not
>use".  Which means that 50% of the Instructors here have to continually
>convince themselves that the author was a throw-away bigot.  The other
>50% think he's correct.
>
>
>Bob V!

Hear hear!

Gerhard                                                schut@prl.philips.nl
From: tjgerman@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM (Trevor German)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Clouds?! (was Re: the best)
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:29:35 GMT
Reply-To: tjgerman@ncrwat.Waterloo.NCR.COM (Trevor German)
Organization: Imaging Systems Division, NCR Corp, Waterloo, Ont., CANADA


>In article <1992Aug25.011031.21240@das.harvard.edu> galperin@endor.uucp (Greg Galperin) writes:
> MANY LINES DELETED
>>
>>	By the way, does anybody know if a plane and skydiver have
>>ever collided midair?  
>>
	I recall reading in a newspaper of a guy that went head first
	through the roof of an aircraft below him. The startled (to
	say the least) managed to land his aircraft with this guys
	lower torso sticking out the roof. The jumper survived I
	believe. Anyone else recall.
--
       >| "Only average people           | Trevor J German BSc    |<
       >|       never make mistakes."    | NCR, Waterloo, Ontario |<
       >|	               	         | Canada.                |< 
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: schut@prl.philips.nl (Schut G)
Subject: Re: You may pick up your pencils...
Organization: none
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:44:07 GMT

In article <4190012@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boucher@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Richard A Boucher Jr) writes:
>
>
>All this talk about reserve rides and a couple of recent dreams about 
>malfunctions have got me to wondering...
>
>Statement: One cannot fully define one's commitment to or relationship with 
>the sport of skydiving until one's first reserve ride.
>
> 1. True or False?
>
> 2. Explain your answer.
> 
>You have 30 minutes. Begin.
>
>-RB


True (for some) and False (generally speaking).

IMHO, in your jumping carreer you will encounter a moment when you will think
more carefully about what you're doing and why you're doing it (and whether
you still want to go on doing it). I think that is only natural for a sport
where the penalty for (severe) mistakes can be severe injury or even death.

This moment may occur more than once and can be triggered by an experience in
the form of a first reserve, witness to a bounce (as somebody else suggested),
another accident or whatever, but it does _not_ necessarily have to be the
first reserve ride. It will depend on the individual (and perhaps also on
whatever comes first....).

At such a moment you define your commitment to the sport more precisely in 
terms of: is the price for this sport not too high, is it worth it for me to 
go on? Some go on and others don't. But later on you may again redefine your 
commitment and perhaps come up with a different answer..... 

Such is life (and it's getting sucher and sucher.....)

So in a way I agree with the statement in that it is valid for some people,
but for others it is not. 

Well, that was about 25 minutes.

Gerhard                                               schut@prl.philips.nl
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: Boogie Ad (correction)
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 16:03:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.033724.13657@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>
  dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:

Drat it!  That'll teach me to use techno toys for no particularly good
reason.  The OCR software changed an 8 to a 3 in the post office box number.

It's:

Skydive New Mexico
P.O. Box 82413
Albuquerque, NM  87108

Many thanks to Jan Stewart for pointing this out.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
From: Charolyn_Babichuk@darwin.biochem.ualberta.ca
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Please define a few abbreviations
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:03:15 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta

In article <1992Sep2.103908.27070@pta.pyramid.com.au> bob@pta.pyramid.com.au
(Robert Vernon) writes:

Stuff deleted...

>seen anyone else mention.  The original handles for pull-outs were big
>and furry and looked like a little bunny-tail sitting on your bum.  The
>name stuck even though modern handles look much different.  And are
>much safer.  The old handles were very easy to dislodge accidently
>causing a "floating bunny-tail".

Stuff deleted...

We call them "floating dildos"... you guys too?

Charolyn
From: bleck@mobot.ai.mit.edu (Olaf Bleck)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Clouds?! (was Re: the best)
Keywords: safety, legality, VFR, clouds
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:43:53 GMT
Reply-To: bleck@ai.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Aug25.011031.21240@das.harvard.edu>, galperin@endor.uucp (Greg Galperin) writes:
|> Olaf enumerates:
|> >Fourth, traffic/transportation rules are there to protect the ordinary
|> >average person from posing a danger to himself or to others under
|> >average circumstances....  For example, I speed on the highway because
|> >I personally am confident enough that I have better situation
|> >awareness and handling ability than 95% of the people on the road
|> 	I basically agree with your point as made, but it doesn't
|> apply to flying in or through clouds unless you happen to have
|> on-board radar on your rig.  When the danger is invisible, all the
|> skill and reflex in the world doesn't help; everybody is exactly the
|> average case.  It's not poker we're playing, just roulette.

You missed the point, which has nothing to do with reflexes, but rather with
preparation.  (sorry, maybe my example was bad because it is more geared
toward reflexes).  What I said, was that in cases where I'm comfortable with
cloud punching, there is a well established skydiving operation going on
(such as at Z-hills, where as far as I could tell at the time with 30 jumps,
they put out people at (x,y,z) regardless of what else is there), or there is
some traffic control such as at Quincy.  Furthermore, I also said that it
would be dumb to do it somewhere such that if it was a bad spot, you'd land
in Lake Michigan.


-Olaf DBC804
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving