From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:54:15 GMT
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.

Hello Jeff!  I wanted to e-mail you personally because you 
addressed one of your questions specifically to me.  But I
wasn't sure if jwest@wisc was your entire address.  Is
that the whole thing?


Jeff West (jwest@wisc) writes:

> Why did your God "deliver into the hands of Satan" such
> a righteous man as Job?

This is a good question.  So good in fact that Job asked 
nearly the same thing. 

Job 31:35:

    Oh, that I had someone to hear me!
    I sign now my defense--let the
        Almightly answer me;
    let my accuser put his indictment
        in writing.

God answers Job starting in chapter 38.  Here's the first
few lines:

    Then the Lord answered Job out of the
    storm.  He said:

    Who is this that darkens my counsel
    with words without knowledge?
    Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    Where were you when I laid the
    earth's foundation?
    Tell me if you understand.
    Who marked off its dimensions?
       Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line
       across it?

     . . .

   
This sort of rhetorical questioning goes on chapter after chapter. 
With each question, Job must only plead ignorance.  Then Job says 
two chapters later in Job 40:3:

     I am unworthy--how can I reply to you?
     I put my hand over my mouth.

and then in 42:3:

     Surely I spoke of things I did not
        understand,
     things too wonderful for me to
        know.

and a couple verses later:

     My ears had heard of you
        but now my eyes have seen you.
     Therefore I despise myself
        and repent in dust and ashes.

Then we come to the end of the story.  Starting
in 42:7, we read that God restores Job to a position
twice as great as before (42:10), and chastises 
Jobs "friends" for giving Job bad advice (42:7).

You will notice that God never addresses Job's
question.  Job's question became moot. 


>
> Why did your god need to torture a true believer?
>

This is a good question.  First of all, it wasn't God that 
tortured Job.  Satan tortured Job.  If Satan wasn't around,
there would be no torturing of Job.

>
> Wasn't his obedience and faithfulness enough?
>

Another excellent question.  Many Christians too ask this
question.  I believe that my God has a greater purpose than just 
testing our obedience and faithfulness.  Obedience and 
faithfulness are a means to an end.  They are tools. My God 
appreciates our obedience and can even be "amazed" at our 
faithfulness.  God can and does make use of these tools to 
accomplish his plan.  You may ask what plan and to what end?  

    I believe God has at least two ends.  One is this:  God 
wants everyone to come to Him, to enjoy his protection, to enjoy his 
kingdom, and to basically keep him company.  He doesn't want to force 
people to do any of this.  And God will use people like Job to help
accomplish this end.  Usually God's people are grateful for
having an acting part in his plan.  (There are exceptions.)

    Another end is on a more personal basis:  God wants us to
become more mature and stronger.  This not only for his sake, but 
for our own.  He wants us to be better equipped to handle problems
we will face in this world.

   Some things accomplished by the story of Job are:
 
1. We are made aware of some of the power and scope of a
   destructive enemy.  We learn that it is Satan, not God,
   who is sowing destruction. 

2. Satan has access to the entire planet.

3. God allows Satan a certain amount of authority.

4. We learn that even though Satan is powerful, God is
   more powerful.  Satan is ultimately subject to God.
   Yet, point 3.

5. God puts up protective "hedges" around selected people 
   so that they are not totally destroyed by Satan.   

6. We get a vision that, as humans, we are sort of 
   like pieces in a celestial chess game.  The details
   of this game is food for thought.

7. Job's 3 friends get their relationship with God
   straightened out.

8. God answers prayer.  God answered Job's request for
   an audience with "God Almighty."

9. However, God does not answer prayer as one might expect.

10. God does what he wants to do.

11. For people with medical problems or whose lives are wrecks,
    Job may be a source of great comfort.  "Who, after all, had it
    worse than Job?"  Yet Job, despite all his ailments and misfortune,
    received an audience with God.  God talked to him.  But not
    only that, God also restored him back to health.  God made
    Job's life to begin with, Satan destroyed Job's life; yet God
    rebuilt it.

12. God chooses to involve himself with individuals.  He is
    concerned with what happens to each of us.


> Or is it just your god's form of entertainment?

God does not enjoy seeing any of this. 

If you would like some interesting insight on how the God of the Bible loves 
us and how God's heart can be broken when we do not want Him, please read
the Old Testament book of Hosea.  In this book, God shows us how
his own heart grieves by using Hosea's marriage as a living
portrait. Here's a little synopsis:

In the book, Hosea marries Gomer, the prostitute, whom he loves with all
his heart. Gomer, though, keeps on running away to other men.  She is
a prostitute.  What do you expect?  Basically, she treats her benevolent 
husband like cow turd.  Each time she runs away,  she gets herself into 
more trouble.  But because Hosea loves her so deeply, Hosea bails her out, 
takes her back into his home, and under his protection.  Each time,
however, the price to bail out Gomer gets more expensive.  Hosea is 
deeply hurt, in anguish, and gets angry with his wayward wife.  But Hosea 
loves her so much, that he is willing to just about do anything to
win her heart.  You will have read the rest of the story.  You'll like it.  
I think they should make a movie out of it. :-)

> You're one of those that believes that the earth is ~5000 years
> old aren't you?

Who told you that the earth is ~5000 years old?  Was is some
archbishop in England who lived a few centuries ago? :-)  The Bible
doesn't say that.  Nevertheless, I am not one those that believes
the earth is ~5000 years old.  I hope I didn't disappoint you.




Sincerely,


Brian Ceccarelli
----------------
brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu



    



     
     
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