HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 09:38:36 GMT

rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) on 13 Aug 92 15:30:50 GMT
in article <rsakella.713719850@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> writes:

 rsakella> Asking the Olympic Committee I was informed that :

 rsakella> 1. Among the 172 nations that participated in the 1992
 rsakella> Olympics there was no nation called "Macedonia".

But stil Macedonia was present at the Olimpic Games. You state it
youself in the following lines:

 rsakella> 2. Athletes from ex-Yugoslavia regions which have not been
 rsakella> recognized as independent states, participated as
 rsakella> individuals, meaning that : a. They were wearing white
 rsakella> forms.  b. They didn't parade at the opening and closing
 rsakella> ceremonies.  c. As a flag and anthem they used the Olympic
 rsakella> ones.

also he writes:

 rsakella> So, Mr. Konecni stop posting false information. The fact is
 rsakella> that the republic of Skopjie has not been recognized by
 rsakella> almost any country or organization of the world. Even
 rsakella> Bulgaria that has recognized this republic, denies the
 rsakella> existence of a Macedonian nation.

You contradict yourself in the same paragraph twice.  
1. My information
   is not false. You prove it yourself.  
2. You first say that republic of
   Skopjie ( the correct english spelling is Skopje) is not recognized,
   and then you say it is recognized by Bulgaria. 

Make up your mind, is it
or is it not. I will help you: It is recognized under the name of
Republic of Macedonia by the following countries: Russia, Bulgaria,
Turque, ... It is just matter of time before the others follow.


 rsakella> ... And as long as Skopjians insist on ignoring history,
 rsakella> international recognition will remain far away.

And what is exactly the history that Macedonians ignore? I would very
much like to know, and I hope other readers on the netwes, about your
opinion on the history of the Balkan. The reason is because I see that
there is difference in what I think about the problem and what you
think.

Sasa.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: gleeson@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Mountain Red)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:20:54 GMT

Please edit your Newsgroups: line and get this out of soc.culture.australian!!!

Martin.
----------------------=============***O***=============-------------------------
Martin J. Gleeson   | Computer Science, Melbourne Uni, Oz |    ...  __o    Outta
gleeson@cs.mu.oz.au |  E Pluribus Unix  |  BIKE  IT   !!  |  ...   -\<,       my
" We gladly feast on those who would subdue us." - Addams |  ....(_)/(_)..  way!
 "I can't give you brains, but I can give you a diploma." - The Wizard of Oz
----------------------=============***O***=============-------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7913 soc.culture.greek:7471 soc.culture.europe:7255 eunet.politics:1044 soc.culture.australian:3890
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:11:45 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>Constantinos Varnavas on 12 Aug 92 16:53:16 GMT, <Bsvqwu.Av2@news.cso.uiuc.edu
>writes:

>> Macedonia did not participate in the Olympic games simply because it is not
>> recognized as an independent state.  So the columnist does not have
>> his/her facts straight by including Macedonia in the participating states.
>> Since I assume you know this fact, why do you post this information which you
>> know is false?
>> -- 
>> Constantinos Varnavas
>> University of Illinois

>Just for your information I will mention that Macedonia did participate in the Olympic games. 
>If you do not believe ask the Olypic Committee. 

I repeat:  Macedonia did not participate in the Olympic games simply because it
is not recognized.  Athletes from the ex-Yugoslav republic of Macedonia might
have participated, although I do not know that for a fact.  I did not see any
"Republic of Macedonia" in the opening ceremonies, I did not see the
"Macedonian" flag (that forgery of history which depicts the Macedonian sun - an
ancient Macedonian symbol which people of the so-called "Republic of Macedonia"
have nothing to do with), or any other official representation of "Macedonia".
Do you have any proof which contradicts the above?  If so present facts, and do
not post Mutlu-like articles not related to the point raised.
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8117 misc.headlines:5741
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 20:18:25 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA

In article <1992Aug18.203012.28304@cs.yale.edu> jovanovic-nick@CS.YALE.EDU (Nick Jovanovic) writes:

>In article <1992Aug18.183908.1535@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>>Did anyone else see the French films from Serbian camps? The scenes showed
>>folks who are clearly being starved to death, and reminded one of the photos
>>from the liberated camps after WWII - I've been surprised that I haven't
>>seen more commentary on the films, or other sources with the same
>>information... 

>And what nationality were those folks who were clearly starving to death?

I do not recall being told, but the camp was identified as Serbian.

>Perhaps they were Serbs in a Croatian or Muslim camp?  Could the average
>mediaperson from the West differentiate between a Serb, Croat, or Muslim
>Slav?  Could most of the pictures we are shown by the media be based on
>the propaganda efforts of one side or another?  The International Red Cross

Yes, the pictures could most certainly be used as part of a propaganda
effort, which is precisely why I asked if others had seen additional
information, or remembered more than I did from the broadcast.

>has stated that all sides have detention camps, that conditions in all these
>camps are poor, but that no war crime type conditions have been found in any
>of them.  It would be wise to remember that pictures _can_ lie when used to
>support a cause.

That all sides run camps I accept. The conditions shown were far beyond
"poor", and the subjects were quite clearly being starved. The guards
appeared to be in the best of health, so food is available, but it doesn't
seem to be getting to the prisoners, whoever they might be.

-- 
|"In front of me, a pile of corpses balanced carefully on one another, 
|rose  geometrically like a haystack.  There was  no more room in  the 
|crematoria  so they piled up the corpses out  here."   Fania Fenelon, 
|"Playing for Time", Atheneum, New York, 1977. pg. 253.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:58:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.072213.29909@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>Contributions from Australian Macedonian Weekly, 11th August, 1992.
>
>
>THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
>
>   The Aboriginal Government of Australia has supported the
>Macedonian Coordinating Council of WA in their just quest
>for the recognition of an independent and sovereign Republic
>of Macedonia.
>
>   Mr Clarrie Isaacs has called on the European Community
>and the Australian Government to recognise the Republic of
>Macedonia.
>
>   "As President of the Aboriginal Government of Australia,
>I express great sympathy for the Macedonian people in their
>struggle for independence. I strongly condemn the Greek
>Government discriminating against the Macedonian minority
>living in Greece and the Republic of Macedonia.
>
>   The Aboriginal people and the Macedonian people have
>both been deprived and tormented by their conquerors.
>
>   Everyone knows that Macedonia is Macedonia and has
>been recognised as such for centuries. The Macedonians do
>not claim anyone's history. They have their own and do not
>want anything that is not their own.
>
>   The Aboriginal people being a suppressed people in
>Australia, call upon the indigenous people in the world
>to show full solidarity with their Macedonian brothers
>struggling for recognition".
>
>   Mr Isaacs told Macedonian Coordinating Council secretary
>Zoran Coseski, that is it in the interest of European peace
>to recognise the small, peaceful and unarmed Republic of
>Macedonia.
>
>   Greece already has independence and there is nothing
>to stop Australia and the Western World from recognising
>Macedonia.


	Ahah ha ha ha ha. During the last minour (What they called major) 
demonstration, the Skopjiens FAILED to get any important political leaders
to address their demonstration. The only one they got is an Aboriginal leader
ie. the equivalent of an American Indian for the US. So were is the joke.
Well if they came up and said The Indian goverment of US recognises
whattever ... ie. one fake goverment recognising another. A note to make
is that Given a name of Makedonia to your future country neither of us will
ever rest. ie. tensions till kingdom come. and not two the true g overment of Australia supports Greece on all fronts :-)
	George



>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
>= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
>= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
>= Kwikstraat 4,B-3078 Everberg, Belgium                           =
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: 8939527@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:08:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.095028.22302@ucc.su.OZ.AU> shopov@ee.su.oz.au (Sacha Shopov) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.031508.13512@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au> s8923098@macnab.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug18.181853.7807@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>>   ....
>>|
>>|   What the E.C. told the Macedonians in Lisbon is identical
>>|to what the Aboriginal band "Yothu Yindi" sufferred at the
>>|Catani Bar in Melbourne. Then the world condemned Australian
>>|Policies & Discrimination, and soon after the band swept
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>What's that? I don't understand.
>
>I think it means Australian,
>
>   1. Policies
>   2. Discrimination
>
> ... was condemned by the world. 
>I don't think any other band, Aboriginal or not, has ever been refused
>service at any public venue, solely due to their racial heritage. 
>The fact that it happened to be the Aboriginal band, Yothu Yindi, who 
>are well publicised today, merely focuses on issues which would otherwise
>be swept under the carpet, which seems to be the way moreso lately. I think
>the more that is said and heard can only be of benefit.
>

	OK we will give it another go. The band was not refused public service
in the public venue. It was the son of the leader of the band (As well a 
political figure) This can happen often throughout australia but the fact
that they did it to the son was their downfall. What happened was that
there was a piket line outside the BAR of both Aboriginies and Other cultures
and the bar was forced to publicly appologise on tv live. The aboriginal leader accepted the appology and did not press charges. Now the whole of Australia
as well as the Australian Goverment (Note that one because there is only one
goverment in Aus) condemned the action. They got what they diserved but has 
nothing to do with your point. Other than to expose the sort of lies that
are used to promote Your so called 'Makedonien" goverment. If and when
the steam settles could you please tell me What would I be called
if I am not allowed to identify my self as a Makedonien (Make a note I am
obviously Greek)




	George
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Serbian Agression
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:16:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.19684
Organization: University of North Dakota, Grand Forks

In article <14018@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> rdargahi@trane.iaims.bcm.tmc.edu (Ross 
Dargahi) writes:
>It is high time that the civilized world dealt an iron blow to 
>this obvious Serbian agression and barbarism.

Fine.  But what about Moslems getting slaughtered in Burma and Somalia?  I
don't hear much outcry on *that*, lately...

>We stood by in the thirties while an Austrian painter lead the world
>to war and did nothing, and we swore that it would never
>happen again.

So much for that.  The world also stood by during the reigns of Idi Amin,
Pol Pot, the brutalities of Renamo in Mozambique, and the Iran-Iraq war.  

>Well now we have to stand by our oath, and teach the Serbians
>and their Montenegran allies that systematic deportations, torture,
>interrment, and brutalization of peoples of a particular ethnic
>heritage will NOT be tolerated.

That would be nice, if it could be evenly applied.  And a great excuse to
meddle in Iraq (i.e. shouldn't it apply to Kurds and Shi'ites, too?).  Let
me see, foreigners could easily cite abuses against Bahais in Iran, Sikhs in 
India, Christians in Egypt, blacks in Mauritania...  My, one can get almost 
imperialist thinking of all of the causes one fight for.

You must now understand how the British government felt when it felt morally
obliged to kill people in the name of stopping Ottoman atrocities against
the Greeks.

>
>Whatever the means we must use to achieve this end we must use. For
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Including atrocity?

>the Serbian people to claim ignorance is akin to the German people
>having claimed ignorance of Nazi policy. 

Ah, but there *were* Germans who were ignorant.  Should all Southerners
suffer because one of my great-great-great grandfathers was lynched by his 
neighbors in Missouri in 1862 and another great-great-great grandfather's
town was burned to the ground by Quantrill's raiders?  I don't think so myself,
but a revenge mentality for ancient wrongs, unfortunately, is pervading the 
Bosnian conflict. (sigh)

>Let the Serbian people remember the lessons of Dresden.

Firestorms are not nice things.  People tend to remember them (the ones that
survive), and nurse grudges about them.  I'm somehow reminded of a network 
saying, "He who lives by the flame dies by the flame."  I just hope *I* don't 
burn to cinders...

>Ross Dargahi

Cheers
Andrew Varvel
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8206 soc.culture.bulgaria:1194 soc.culture.greek:7876
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: SKOPJE'S SWISS DREAMS
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:39:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>
>You're so right. We all know how a Greek by the name of Alexander went
>on a ten-year conquest layed his hands on lands that was not his.
>Before
>history repeats itself, wipe Greece from the face of Earth.
>

 Is the above supposed to make sence? Alexander lived 2,400 years ago.
The economic, political and historical context in which he set out to
destroy the Persian empire (a military threat to Macedonia) no longer
exist. By the way, do you actually admit that Alexander was Greek? Your
message certainly does imply that. I am suprized!

 What I am talking about is the 2 successful and 2 unsuccesful attempts
 by bulgaria to conquer Macedonia and Vardar:
  1913 - 2nd Balkan War - failed
  1915 - WWI  - Allied to the central Empires / 2 year occ. of Vardar
  1941 - WWII - Allied to Hitler / 3 year occupation
  1947 - Involvement in Greek Civil war  - failed.

 I draw your attention to the following points:

 1. All attempts took place in our century.
 2. The context of the 1915 and 1945 attempts still exists. In fact it
    only exists because the Skopjie and Sofjia governments continue to
    cultivate the prenciple of a "Greater Macedonia".
 3. Bulgarian/Skopjie officials (and even some netters) on this board
    are still advancing claims that a large "Macedonian minority" exists
    in Greece, citing pre-1913 figures and denying that the population
    exchange ever took place. For proof that the population exchange
    took place, I direct you to your nearest encyclopaedia. For an
    explanation of why the "Macedonian Minority" claims are being
    advanced, will have to look up under the topics "Propaganda" and
    "Expansionist Desires".

Michael.
                                 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8134 soc.culture.greek:7761 soc.culture.europe:7523 eunet.politics:1083 soc.culture.australian:3969
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:23:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bt9Irn.JuJ
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Panos Tamamidis  (ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
>> I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY YOU ARE BRAINWASHED !!!!

>SURE, AND WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY THAT YOU ARE BRAIN-WASHED TOO!
>AND WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO USE CAPITAL LETTERS.

>It doesn't prove much, though. For none of us.
                                         ^^^^^
					 Who the heck is us?

 No pal. Wrong. When I read the following things:

 (i) Macedonians are not Greeks
 (ii) Greece  in 1988 renamed its northern part Macedonia and Thrace

Then, I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY YOU ARE BRAINWASHED !!!!

It proves so many things!!  That's why you got upset. So, tell your friend
Sasa to come on his sences.

Got it?

>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se



-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:28:54 GMT
Reply-To: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester UK

In article <1992Aug15.065036.9965@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:
>
>What Skopjeans try to do is: forgery of history and appropriation of 
>another nation's culture.   

Look, that's vary vague and furthermore, it can't last forever. Forgeries
can exist for some time but not forever.

>No, I do not think so.  Every nation in Greece's position would do exactly
>the same thing.  Can you recall a counter example?

Yes - Bulgaria. I am still curious how people with knowledge on Macedonia
can't understand that if there is a history "theft" by the scholars from
ex-YU, it's in fact a theft of the Bulgarian history (examples - Tzar
Samuil, Kiril and Methodius, Kliment Ohridski, and EVERY famous poet,
writer, freedom fighter, etc. before 1920). But one can hardly blame the
Macedonians for that. All their history books have been written in Belgrade
and it's not their fault that all this has been imposed on them for 70
years (first 25 years being Southern Serbia and later - Macedonia). But the
idea for independent Macedonia belongs to the Bulgarian Macedonians from
the last century and this is quite well documented. BTW, Macedonia was at
that time under Ottoman rule and I've never seen documents related to
the history of that time that Greece had similar (as those nowadays)
objection towards the name Macedonia. The Ottomans did have objections for
independence of Macedonia, however, but not because of the name ...

>Panos Lolonis
>U. of Iowa

Luben

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:09:56 GMT


In article <1992Aug14.093836.10431@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>
>or is it not. I will help you: It is recognized under the name of
>Republic of Macedonia by the following countries: Russia, Bulgaria,
>Turque, ... It is just matter of time before the others follow.

This reminds me some of the arguments, some of the thick-heads,
of some countries from the same side were proposing some decades ago:

"we have the dream: USSR, Bulgaria, Rumania, Poland, China, ...
It is just matter of time before the others follow..."

Good luck that they did not!

Filippos Santas

PS: you still keep the tradition, don't you?


Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7893 soc.culture.jewish:14139
From: tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: 31% Serbs take 70% of B.-H.
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:36:51 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.113256.2474@bernina.ethz.ch> mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic) writes:
>There is no way to justify the driving out of any population. I do not 
>believe that anybody on the net justifies it and I believe that majority 
>of Serbs are against it. 

But the question is, if the regular military forces of Serbia were
rendered non-operation, say by a synchronized massive air strike agains
C^3 centers, military command posts, bases, enough CAP to kill any
Serbian warplane in the air, would this be enough for opposition
forces in Serbia who are against the current regime's ethnic cleansing
policy to gain control?  

Or, would the people of Serbia huddle around their government in such
an attack?  Or perhaps irregular forces which would withstand such
an attack successfully oppose an opposition force?

(I'm not making reccommendations, just curious.  I _AM_ for CAP
over Yugoslavia...nothing flies that doesn't have UN approval.)

-Tom


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: lhermi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi)
Subject: FOR FAIR USE ONLY
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:40:31 GMT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics