From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Our attitude towards homosexuality
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:51:05 GMT


In article <1992Jul30.010412.17306@udel.edu>, kazi@bugs.cis.udel.edu (Zunaid Kazi) writes:
> In article <1992Jul29.210952.27296@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
> >
> >I actually thought I might just be able to survive the whole summer
> >without getting drawn into another major scb-debate... :)  I guess
> >it's not going to happen, so here goes:
> 
> Welcome back, Shakil :) Sorry to have dragged you out into the fray.

:)  Well, I think I was slowly beginning to lose touch, so I guess I
should thank you for getting the ol' keyboard clicking on scb articles
again...

> Why can't the two be significantly different issues? Isn't morality a
> matter of perception? What I perceive to be immoral may not be perceived
> as such by another person. My views on adultery, or homosexuality, or
> murder etc are governed by my own canon of morality. It is a set of
> value system with which I am comfortable. To a major extent, this
> set might overlap the set of morality as espoused by the major religions, 
> but, in many ways, there are irreconcilable differences. 

Indeed there may be.  And that is why I was careful to state that you
are, of course, free to define your own set of morals.  What I was
questioning was the logical basis to defining such a set, i.e. does it
make sense to apply different standards to homosexuality than to
adultery?  If the answer is "yes," my question is "why?"

> >There is no provision in Islam for homosexual marriages.  In light of
> >your friend's comments on homosexual marriages defying evolutionary
> >goals, one could construct the argument that your definition of good
> >human beings may look somewhat shaky.  After all, could one not argue
> >that purposely engaging in acts that are evolutionarily
> >counter-productive may be construed as harmful to mankind?  I suppose
> >that would depend on whether you consider continuation of the human
> >race an important and "good" quest.
> 
> Sometimes, I ask myself the same question :)
> 
> But seriously, this is a non-sequitur. I can't really argue from the
> perspective of my friend, but let me shore up my definition of a good
> human being :) 
> 
> I am not too worried that homosexual practices might result in the
> extinction of the human species. Since heterosexual acts are the norm,
> I suppose ascribing this as a reason for species extinction is something
> that does not fly against my definition of doing good for mankind. In 
> such a case, each and every human being who has not had a direct
> involvement in the birth of a child is contributing to the end of Man.
> Would you consider heterosexual couples who chose not bear a child
> to be evolutionary counter-productive? 

It would be a non-sequitur if I had suggested extinction of the human
species.  My point was not that the human race is threatened, but that
a homosexual couple is contributing towards evolutionary
counter-productivity.  A homosexual marriage closes the door to any
potential child-bearing, and in that sense is very different to a
childless heterosexual marriage that preserves the possibility.

> In each of 'whatever else falls in that category' I may or may not
> have views diametrically opposite yours. In each of the category
> I use my own value system to judge the morality of action. 
> 
> To many, they may appear inconsistent; but I am comfortable with my 
> beliefs.  However, I am not here to argue about my own belief
> system. This sort of discussion never gets anywhere and leads to a mindless
> exchange of unchangeable opinions. I have simply expressed my attitudes 
> towards homosexuals, and I am not here to justify my beliefs.  

I don't think it was really "justification" that I was looking for.
You stated a set of beliefs and morals that you stand by.  What I
would like to know is how you arrive at these beliefs and moral
values.


-- Shakil Ahmed
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