From: martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Evol & God : CANNOT Co-exist!
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:55:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: adpplz.1538
Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR

This demonstrates an astoundingly heretical view of God, actually.


In article <1992Aug27.050110.21622@ccu.umanitoba.ca> you write:

> I have seen a couple of comments in posts which I find baffling:
> Essentially, they claim that the theory of evolution does not 
> interfere or conflict with the concept of God.

Right. Precisely. Just as math doesn't interfere or conflict with the
concept of God. Or geometry. Or astronomy. Even if you believe that 
every time a theory applies (gravity, say) it's due to the specific
intervention of God, His intervention is quite dependable for His laws.
(Euclidean geometry, of course, contradicts geology, but we figured that
out about a thousand years ago, and it was our confusion, not a fault of God.)


> Would one of you guys like to explain how evolution and God can co-exist?

> All life on this planet can only have a single point of origin.
> The process by which the very first cell was created.
> What created that cell: God or evolution?

How about "evolution, as created by God"? What's _wrong_ with that?
Why is that so offensive to you, but math isn't? I look at astronomy, and
physics, and math, and geometry, and SURPRISE! biology and geology, and
see the hand of God.
(BTW, there's nothing strong enough to be called a "theory" of the specific
origin of life from nonlife. Evolution definitely isn't it. What you disagree
with on this particular subject is the demonstrated age of the world when
life arose, and the demonstrated age of life on this planet. Please, at least,
be consistent in your silliness.)


> Repeat the same question for all stages of life moving from
> single celled life to our present form.
> What caused that change : God or evolution?

Evolution, which was given us by God in the world He created. Due to physics,
biology, chemistry, ecology, meteorology... as created by Him. Or don't you
believe God created the world? and the stars? and the planets? and the
continents? What is your problem with God creating the world so it _works_?


> If you answer god for any stage, then it could be god for
> all of the stages, and you believe in creation, not evolution.

No, I believe in evolution, as created by God.


> If you answered evolution for any stages, then you are implying
> that a single stage can be modified without gods assistance, 

Yes. Just as we can take two things, and put them in a box, and two
other things, and put them in a box, and without even looking, know
that there are four things in the box. 2+2=4, always, in this universe,
as created by God. It may be a miracle, but it isn't a specific miracle,
I don't have to invoke God to add. Do you believe God MUST INTERVENE
whenever I count? or look at a star? or know where Venus is in the sky?

Do you have so little faith in His creation, that you believe nothing
that He created could work the way He designed it?


> Any stage could be likewise modified without assistance.
> therefore, you believe in evolution, not creation.

What is there about evolution that is somehow in opposition to its Creator,
that cannot be said of or found in geometry, math, physics?


> You cannot answer god for some stages, and evolution for others.

Why? My computer runs without my assistance unless I boot it, or choose
to crash it, or input to it. If mere humans can create computers that run
without intervention, why don't you believe that God is capable of creating
a functional universe? Do you believe that the possibility of miracles
REQUIRES THAT EVERYTHING BE A MIRACLE?


> I have 2 cats, a siamese and a persian. You cannot say god
> created the siamese, and the persian evolved from a lower species.

You can if you believe in miracles. And ignore the very clear evidence
that siameses are simply a breed of cat. I don't believe that particular
silliness, of course; neither do you. How about chemistry? Do you believe
that carbon dioxide is the mere result of chemistry, but ammonia and
formaldehyde are created by God? (Not just funny, either, that's one
of the sillier creationist theory claims.) If God intervenes, and answers
prayers, then any particular thing could be due to His intervention. In
most cases, of course, His universe is functioning perfectly, and His
interference with His rules is unnecessary.


What is horrifying to me is the assumption that God _couldn't_ make
a universe that would run by itself. To insist on the incompetence
of the Creator is entirely beyond my understanding.


And the astounding arrogance of people who believe that God certainly
COULD create evolution, but, well, He WOULDN'T, because they say so.


Martin Golding    | My opinions, mine, mine mine oh what the heck...
Dod #0236         |  here, you have them too.
[motcsd!]mcspdx!adpgate!martin
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