From: rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack)
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:11:32 GMT

In article <a9gn5pl.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:
>>An interesting technique, and one that seems to be very
>>popular these days, which is, the victimizer puts on the cloak
>>of the victim.
>
>I am not a victimizer, especially not sexually.  Though I
>see no reason to provide specifics.  Richard, we are discussing
>a moral and ethical issue here, and you persist in making it
>a personal one.  I am not rationalizing my own desires and
>impulses, I am not making excuses for others.  I have, however,
>noticed some interesting aspects to sexuality.  This is why
>this subject came up with in the first place.
>
>note: the average age of models and sex objects in the public
>media.  the average is a minor.  Societies definition of what
>is sexually available and desirable is juvenile and getting
>younger every year.
>
>note: the amount of incest and child sex in modern erotica.
>sexuality at a younger age is becoming more acceptable.

I'm not sure why you included these points?  There is
cigarette advertising, does that mean cigarettes are good?
There is porn about men and women being raped, does that mean
rape is good?

>
>note: much of the emotional damage from child sexual abuse
>comes from social opinions, not the fact itself.  look at
>the damage caused afterwards, during trials, police investigations,
>social workers, media exposure.

The people I know who were sexually abused as children
suffered their damage at the hands of those who sexually
abused them.  You seem to be saying we should ignore the crime
if removing the criminal from society will remind the victim
of the crime.

>
>note: the power of abuse is such that it is the golden rule
>of custody cases, false accusations abound, destroying
>carreers and community impressions.  lives have been ruined
>

I only know of one divorce case in which the husband was
accused of sexually abusing the children.  I know of no cases
in which the wife does.  With that background, I will note
that in the case where the husband was accused, the people who
told me, in no uncertain terms that he was quilty, were his
sister and one of her children.  Given this I would say that
there are real cases of sexual abuse in marriage.  However, I
believe that there are false accusations, but how does the
presence of false accusations of sexual abuse argue for
removing those laws?

>note: there is quite a bit of evidence of childhood sexuality
>being beneficial in some cases.  many in fact.  the good
>experiences are typically not revealed, due to fear of the
>social repercussions.  just as abuse is alot more prevalent
>than is normally considered, so are the non-abusive instances.
>

I have seen none of this evidence of the benefits of young
children being sexually abused and I'm not prepared to take
your word for it.

>
>anyway, the point here is that this issue seriously needs some
>debate.  we got a big problem here.  and saying its wrong, and
>labeling those who think different from the norm as evil and
>sick (as you have been doing rich) has been so ineffective
>its rediculous.

I don't accuse people who differ from the norm as being evil
and sick (I guess you dreamed that), I consider those who see
children as sex objects to be sick.  Your misrepresentation of
what I say certainly speaks to the validity of your arguement
and other unpresented evidence.

>
>this issue has been a community problem for a long time now,
>and SHOWS NO SIGN OF EVER STOPPING!  rich, you are just parroting
>what our laws have been saying, and you are just as effective.
>meaning, you are not.
>

Should we find better ways of dealing with sexual abuse of
children, of course we should.  I never said we shouldn't.
Should remove our age of consent laws, absolutely not.  You
are saying the problem isn't understood, we don't know how to
treat it so we should think its good.  I say I have seen too
many children harmed by predatory adults to want society to
say, "It's okay, go and do it."

>its about time we started dumping the values that are causing
>this problem.  i think that some of the things that are involved
>are gender roles, childhood sexuality, consent, non-sexual abuse,
>as well as the patterns of abuse-repetition.

See, I think the value that is causing children to be sexually
abused is one typified by, "I need to take care of one of my
needs, so it doesn't matter how I harm others."  Its called
selfishness.

>
>nobody here is saying they got all the answers but you rich,
>most are just saying that the 'normal' answers just dont
>seem to apply.  and they dont.  all the 'normal' people are
>holed up in a middle-america town somewhere under lock and key.
>
>
>
>....jeff
>

I guess you dreamed this last passage also.  The last time I
checked I never said I had all of the answers.  Also, the last
time I checked the majority of people, here, there and
everywhere I know of, believe that sex between children and
adults is wrong, and should be illegal so the children can be
protected.
Xref: sparky soc.men:15732 soc.women:15983 alt.feminism:283