From: c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero)
Subject: Re: PRO "LIFE" IS B......T!
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 06:46:58 GMT

In article <1acrgbINNr2s@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.045121.9632@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>>In article <1a9svbINN5cu@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep29.092634.2832@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>>>>And if the supposed "quality of life" (the end) is achieved via
>>>>abortion (the means), then the means would be a greater evil than the
>>>>supposed lack of quality of life.
>>>
>>>And if the supposed "life of the child" (the end) is achieved via
>>>enslaving women (the means), then the means would be a greater evil than
>>>the supposed lack of life of the child.
>>
>>Let's start out by saying the unborn child is definitely a human life.
>>
>>Now let's weigh two things:
>>   1) "enslaving the mother"
>>   2) destroying the life of the unborn child which is definitively human.
>>
>>Now, sure, "enslaving the mother" could be perceived (and it probably is)
>>as an evil.  But when put side by side with the destruction of a human
>>life, more importantly, our own sons and daughters, doesn't the "enslaving
>>the mother" bit pale by comparison?
>
>No!
>
>NO!
>
>God, what a stinking, disgusting, vomit-filled thing to say!
>
>Do you have any idea of how many people DIED -- gave their LIVES -- to
>eradicate the notion of slavery in this country alone?!?!?!?!?!?
>

Yes.  But in order to eradicate slavery, there had to be LAWS.  In fact, not
just a simple law, but a law (or laws) written in the constitution.  Imagine,
lots and lots of people died in this country to put laws in the book which
gave rights to people perceived to have none.  

>Do you have any understanding--ANY at ALL--of history??!~?!?!?!?!?!?

>Do you have any appreciation of the COST in social terms to a society
>that would buy this kind of tripe and attempt (they *always* fail) to 
>make it functional!?!?!?!?!@?!?!?!?!?!

I suppose you could point to the fact that even after the Blacks were given
the right to vote, they weren't able to do so very effectively because
of the Jim Crow Laws and such.  I suppose because it is too costly too
work for a better society, we should have left the necessary amendments
out of law and leave it up to the plantation owners to decide the fate
of those people with no rights.  

>
>You are pretty goddamned disgustingly stinkingly free with somebody
>else's rights, buddy.
>
>> [accidentally deleted line]
>>be ignored and looked down upon.  I'm just saying when the choice is between
>>the life of a human and the mother's situation, the life of a human being
>>must be protected.
>
>
>No, what you are staying, you pile of turd, is that the process to gain
>something that *you* value is worth trampling the humanity of other people
>whom you DON'T value.

I value all people, blacks, whites, and everybody else.  Unfortunately, 
there are many people, and there were many people who don't value all people.
In fact, Jews, blacks, etc. are often viewed as people with no rights.  Not
only people with no rights, but people who should be removed from this
country or any other country in any way possible.  They don't value them.
They are animals, not humans, in some people's minds.

But if I start "trampling" over people by putting laws, and trying to create
a change in this country for the better, does this make me a pile of turd?

BTW, yes, I do value both the mother and her child(s).  But just because
I would protect the human life within the mother doesn't mean I hate or
don't value the mother.  I can stronly suggest to my wife (If I had a wife)
not to have an abortion yet completely and unconditionally love her.

>
>I said how jerks are dying to expose themselves earlier, didn't I?  Actually,
>I was polite and changed that language in the original from assholes to 
>jerks.
>
>I repeal that change.
>
>ASSHOLES always end up exposing themselves without any need for help from
>the viewing audience.
>

Adrienne, why the hostility?  I recognize that getting pregnant, and taking
care of a child within the womb can be, at times, be very difficult, and
grueling.  I recognize the mother as a true loving and caring human being.
However, we sometimes forget that abortion is not merely a one person
issue.  The unborn child(s) within each mother is special.  The mother
who is caring for the unborn child within her is also very special.  Because
both the mother and the unborn child are special, we want to act in ways
worthy of being called a human.  Abortion takes away the specialness
of life and instead, leaves an ugly tainted scar for all humanity.  

Let's stop looking backward.  Think Life.  Love Life.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion