HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Lev Gumilev, was "democratic" Estonia
Date: 29 Aug 92 03:19:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.155929.29621@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
>
>Than - after giving very useful and interesting and proven (all that IMHO,
>of course) classification/theory of ethnos ages he tries to explain why 

Again, no sarcasm, what is the theory? Classification I got, it seems
pretty obvious, and as usual with history has lot of exclusion: sometimes
you have re-vitalization of etnoses, sometimes not and many examples like this.
But what is the theory?

>they behave this way. And how they are born. 
>Here he proposes rather unorthodox (for scientifically
>educated rational materialist) explanation - again, basing
>on solid fact foundation. You may accept that or no.
>But let me mention that he applies ideas by Vernadsky.
>that what he means by energy is very different from mechanicist 17-century
>energy (maybe he should to introduce new word as well as new idea - 

Sorry, modern concept of energy was worked out later, and I as far as I
got it Gumilev refers to the law of the consevration of energy as accepted
in physics. Here he is wrong. Moreover I am not aware of any other law
of conservation, which is widely accepted, so you may just refer to it without
proving it. If you base your theory of law of energy conservation, you
should just apply this law carefully and accurately. Many generation of
scientists proved this law to very high accuracy. If you rely on law
of conservation of ethnic energy you should prove it first, which IMHO
is not done at least in a book a red. It is fine to mean some other
thing when you speak about the energy, but first at least tells the
rules of behaviour of this thing.

>instead of designating it by the word wich meaning is fixed in some 
>minds) and, the last, not the least - I'd like to see how are going to
>explain why people grow up and became old. Not how - why? If you can't 
>are you going to say that idea of different child and adult behaviors
>dosn't have right to exist?

One who says that behaviour of a child is different from that of 
an adult is not called a scientist, scientist answered the questions
like why or how.

>
>He tried to work with more complicated object - ethnos.
>
>There a lot of things which we can't explain but know that they happens :-)
>Btw, what does it mean "energetic men"? :-)

You are not supposed to answer this question by stating that energetic
man has a quality that called energy and he loses this quality when
he gets old blah, blah,blah

>
>Completely irrelevant to general theory. And is this example supposed
>to say something about Gumilev or reader?

I would not put places irrelavant to mine point in mine book. Maybe reader,
I have a book at home, I can cite it and try you to explain to me, what is
the answer.

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.europ
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: SEPT 1 - LIBERATION DAY
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 00:33:24 GMT

	Dear netters,

	I think our generation had a historical opportunity to witness
a number of fascinating events in the world history: the end of the Cold
War, the collapse of the Communist Camp, the fall of the Berlin Wall and,
last but not least, the death of ill-fated Hasan B. Mutlu, the famous
net terrorist who filled the kill files of thousands of innocent netters
for about 4 years (or so I am told).

	Yes, ladies and gentlemen, 4 years of terror and painful struggle
are over. The dragoon is dead.(At least this one head of his).

	I think we have a wonderful occasion to celebrate this historical
event by proclaiming the 1 of September a LIBERATION DAY in all the newsgroups!

	Let us all rejoice, let us organize a holiday demonstration
like we used to do in my country under the Comis, with banners,
posters in our case, congratulating each other ! This day may be
later commemorated every year as a LIBERATION DAY, the international day
of truth and justice for the peoples and the netters of the world!

 SO HERE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE LIBERATION DAY PARADE. JOIN IN.


-------------------------------	
| N O   M O R E    M U T L U ! |
_______________________________   -------------------------------------
|                              |  | N E V E R   A G A I N   M U T L U! |
|			       |  _____________________________________
^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^  ^^^^ ^^ ^^^  |                                    |
			          |                                    |
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      ----------------------------------------------------
      | LONG LIVE THE NEWSGROUPS! LONG LIVE THE NETTERS! |
      ___________________________________________________
      ||                                             .  ||
      ||             ............................................	
                     | Long live the friendship of the nations! |
       --------      ............................................
       | URA! |
       --------
  ......... ....				......... ....... ..

                     .........................
                           o0o
                           \|/
       
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:02:28 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Aug27.173228.11300@leland.Stanford.EDU>
georglin@leland.Stanford.EDU (george lin) writes:
> Once again Estonia is under attack from empire advocates.  I suspect that Mr.
> Viznyuk and his ilk, their prolific postings aside, constitute an insignifi-
> cant minority of this group's readers.

George, are you having a reading comprehension problem ? No one is advocating
the empire. The name of the game is "Equal Rights".

> Someday, if Tibet succeeds in escaping the Chinese noose, it will have a sim-
> ilar decision to make.  How many of the Estonia-bashers truly believe that
> the Chinese occupiers should receive the rights that Estonia's Russians are
> demanding?

You are conveniently replacing "equal rights" with "the rights that Estonia's
Russians are demanding". I assume this is just bad English rather than anything
else.

Oleg
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: edvax@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.edu (Weyland Yutani Ltd)
Subject: Hassan Bubba Mutlu and Turkish Genocide of Armenians
Organization: Ozone Depleting Shoulder Launched Stealth FAXs, Inc.
Date: 27 Aug 92 09:10:47


Hasan Bubba Mutlu of the non-existent anadolu.michigan.com
of AT&T Bell Labs.

STOP posting your SHIT to talk.politics.soviet!!!!!!!!

What is the point of your Turkish revisionism?  Why do you not admit
that your countrymen killed 1.5-2.5 million Armenians in the beginning of
this century? Didn't Turkey colaborate with the Germans in both World
Wars?  Don't quote me your fabricated references.

Your posts have achieved quite the opposite effect than what you and
your masters in Ankara wanted.  They have given the firm impression
that Turks are a bunch of self-righteous fanatics who should not be
taken seriously.  May be you should try quality rather than quantity
next time, eh???

In the meantime, GET THE FUCK OFF OF THIS NEWSGROUP.  Unless you have
something to add to xUSSR/CIS issues.


			Nuke Turks and Kurds into the fucking stone age
			wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances
			you find them.  Turkish children also should be
			turned into gamma rays as they form a danger to
			Humanity.
					(In response to Hasan B. Mutlu 1992)





--
Bus error, core dumped
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:51:32 GMT

>If we are talking about Russian Academy - no blacks

Shafarevich is being considered for expulsion as a foreign member of the
American NAS. There has never been a member of the NAS expelled for any
reason before, nor is there even a procedure existing for doing so.

>> Hatred is terrible. The Holocaust puts antisemitism into a direct
>> context of terror.

>A profound and immoral in a way banality.

I'm sorry my sincereity is not sophisticated enough for you. I grew up
in a home filled with violence and terror. I can't express myself very well 
the subject, but I am well acquainted with many forms of totalitarianism.

>And about women - I grew up with horrible violence committed against
> me, just because of my gender.
D>id you grow up in a Muslim country or someplace like that?! Poor thing.

I am speaking from my heart, and I grew up in California, in the
suburbs, where supposedly life is free from terror. 


But it's not.

And I am not a "leftist," nor a "militant feminist."

What I am trying to say is that we should not divide the *isms of the
world up in packages. I think that breeds violent rivalries such as
we are seeing now.

I think all terrors against all people are different faces of the same
monster. Jewish people are dehumanized by antisemites.
And in many aspects of our culture, women are dehumanized in
similar ways.

I might respect the NAS if they would take a strong stand against ALL
dehumanization.

By the way, I think the Soviet government is guilty of dehumanizing
all Russians in similar ways to those in which women, Jews, Armenians,
Moslems, etc, etc, are dehumanized in their own situations of oppression.

They did this by making the individual and stranger to society, just
as Europeans made Jews into strangers to their societies, and
women are in some ways made into outsiders in most cultures, deprived
of the full rights of the mainstream. An "individualist" in Soviet
culture was a suspected enemy, therefore every single person in the
country was potentially in the roles of "Jews" or "women" or whatever
codeword we want to use for the person we choose to oppress.

This is not a leftist tirade or a PC whine. I have suffered a lot of
abuse in my life, and I fell in my heart an honest connection with
everyone else who had to suffer in this way.

I hope we can grow to be better than that.

But still, I think the American NAS is hypocritical. They are right to
take a stand against antisemitism, but they ought to realize that
many of their most revered member are guilty of equivalent sins,
and to make real progress in humanism, we need, IMHO, to admit and
understand the equivalence.

-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
From: Danny_Prousline@lbl.gov (D. Prousline)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 25 Aug 1992 23:16:54 GMT
Organization: LBL
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.120.21

In article <1992Aug25.163846.7128@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>, julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:

> >Posner is a profecsonal (and he is very good in this profession) lyer.
> 
> How is he a liar?  I really am curious about this.
> 
> Julie

Unfortunately, Julie, one has to be a native to feel  and know why is Posner 
a filthy, communist-ass-licking-scum (capitalist ass-licking too, obviously).
He in not the worst of them, true.
He is one just because he worked for the bolsheviks all these years, and BTW for 
KGB too, (just because it is not possible that he didnt.)
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Lev Gumilev, was "democratic" Estonia
Date: 1 Sep 1992 05:33:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug31.162551.33477@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:

Let me start from the end of your article. No my opinion is not particularly 
strong. I red only one book (not one you are mention in your article, I have
a reference in earlier post), so it may be just bad book of good author.

>In article <17mqbqINNdv9@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>>Again, no sarcasm, what is the theory? Classification I got, it seems
>>pretty obvious, and as usual with history has lot of exclusion: sometimes
>>youtarthave re-vitalization of etnoses, sometimes not and many examples like this.
>>But what is the theory?
>
>Theory - ages of ethnoses, and typical behaviour of ethnos at given age.

Classification I got, as I said. Ages of ethnoses and typical behaviour
is classification. It is not new, idea of old nation and young nation
is by no means new.

>Prediction of longevity of ethnos life and epoches and typical
>tendencies in ethnos lifes.
>Isn't it persuading to see that expansion of Russia empire in last two centuries
>and creation of Roman empire and Columbus happened what their ethoses

No, it is not. If give me statistics, showing that this is most common
age, i would agree. To answer your example with two counterexamples I
would mention Americans (much younger) and Jews (much older).

>
>I didn't got it that way. Maybe the law of dissipation of ethnos energy - 
>but not the conservation - and especially not the physics law of 
>energy conservation.

Here goes:
" But ethnogenesis is a process, revealing it self in a work (in physical
sense). Are accomplished: wars, buildings of temples and palaces, 
landscape changes, oppression of dissidents inside and outside of the
system under creation. But for work to be done energy is required, usual
energy, measured in kilogrammometers or calories..."
     Lev Gumilev, "Geographia ethonsa w istoricheskij period".

>
>You may think of Gumilev as psychologist of ethoses. He answered question
>how, and propose his ideas about why.

How?

>What's more, you can apply his rules to current world and be able
>to understand, e.g. what's happens globally in Arab world 
>(so quiet 100 years ago).

Again, no sarcasm, how? I usually try to believe widely recognised
scientist, but not blindely. That is after all as science works.

>
>How should you answer?

Am I suppose to? It is not a scientific argument: "What other solution
you may propose?". The only case that works is when in mathematics you
gives counterexample. Like if you will find that x**a+y**a=c**a for
a>2, that will be the end of Great Ferma theorem. (I hope I did not
forget my high school math :) ).

>
Yury

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Confederaion of the Mountain Peoples
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:48:45 GMT

Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@brauer.harvard.edu) writes:
)Mark Hubey (hubey@pilot.njin.net) writes:
))Does anyone know who/what is this Confederation of Mountain Peoples
))is about ?
)
)The contemporary organization (which is
)named to commemorate late one) is organized by Dudaev (as far as I know),
)and, mostly, is his tool to pursue Caucasus' independence from Russia.
)Actually, it is nothing more than a consultative organization,
)like EC when it was created, but in the state of anarchy
)on the territory of xSU it has no less power than some real
)organization. Note that most of authonomous Caucasian republics
)are playing in independence (as real as Russian power there,
)i. e., imaginary). They are playing in military union as well.
)
)If they (CMP) will declare war to Georgia, there will be a lot
)of volunteers wanting to help their oppressed brothers, though
)it has no legal power to declare the war.

Just like Mark, I have been confused over this CMP repeatedly
mentioned in RFE/RL reports and elsewhere. I was about to
conclude that CMP rather was some voluntary organization of
persons, like The Republican Party or Rotary. Mikhail seems
to suggest that it is indeed an organization of republics or
regions, and I vaguely seem to recall having seen this hinted
at in the RFE/RL reports. In such a case, who are the members 
of CMP?

Also, I am a bit puzzled that Dudayev are heading for war against
Georgia over Abkhazia. At least previously, Abkhazia wanted to
join Russia. And Russian forces in Abkhazia have warned that they
may responed if they are attacked by Georgian forces. It seems
unlikely to me that Dudayev would end up on the same side as Russia.
Or have I missed something?
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Visa and border control
Date: 1 Sep 1992 05:16:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug31.122746.5419@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>The boarders in Estonia are leaking towards
>Russia. I was told it by very good finnish speaking estonians

You should hire Mutlu as a consulter on Armenian problems, Jarmo.

>while being just few weeks ago in Estonia. May be you in Sweden
>know it better. 
>
>language Erland? Or do you just read your Swedish newspapers?

See for yourself.

This discussion about border control reminded my a story I heard from
my Finnish friend. His wife is in border control in Turku. He told
me, that only way to stop illegal emigrees (mostly Vietnameese) from
_living_ in Finland is at the border. Once they are in country it is
almost impossible to expell them. It is just considered unhuman.
Would you please compare that to Estonia? Do not tell me that nobody
is going to expell Russians, please. I do not want to say that two 
situations are quite the same, I just want to give you a feeling of
what is human and inhuman.

Yury

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 07:08:04 GMT

muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: In article <1992Aug27.110007.18722@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: >muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: 
: We were talking about colonies, so I meant African countries. I really
: do not consider neither Estonia nor Finland as colonies.

Dear Yury ask the estonians if they considered Estonia as a colony of
Soviet or not. I do not know what the people in Finland were thinking
1809-1917, but I can say just so that the Finns wanted away from
the Russian rule how ever you call it.

: 
: >When the Estonians require a stay of three years as a minimum length of
: 
: Have you read articles at all? I do not remember anybody complaining
: about 3 years stay requirement. This is just, from my point of view.
: Most complaints were about language requirement.
: 
Those compaining about language requirements are based on a lacking
knowledge how it is internationally. Try to get Swiss citizenship,
their language test is really something. And there you really
have to stay years before you can apply and you must have clean
records from the police. And it concerns normal immigrants.

In Estonia there are several kinds of Russians some of them the
Estonians want to see to disappear and they are for instance CIS army,
retired officers from elsewhere. I just resently saw figures that only
c.  5000 approximately former Soviet citizens have applied Estonian
citizenship. Along the estonians russians want to keep their way open
to have russian citizenship and not apply estonian citizenship because
so few have done so.



: >So I were not at all suprised if Vizniyk & Co were revealed as 
: 
: You jerk better be careful with offenses.
: 
For me the way Vizniyk and Co. make argumentations sounds like KGB,
I think you cannot forbid me that even if you liked. In former
Soviet Union it may have been normal but not in a democracy.


: >former or present KGB people.
: >
: 
: Yury

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.sulture.greek
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL, 1990.
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 01:10:19 GMT

The New York Times, April 22, 1990. 
Section E, page 26, buttom column.


		THE EDITORIAL NOTEBOOK: ARMENIA, REMEMBERED.
	   	   Something terrible happenned in 1915.

		After 50 years, Moscow admits that Stalin ordered the killing
	of thousands of Polish officers in Katyn. After 40 years, a new 
	government in East Germany joins West Germany in acknowledging
	accountability for Hitler's crimes against the Jews. But after
	75 years, Turkey insists that charges charges of mass killings 
	of Armenians are grossly exaggerated by survivors and descendants.

		Indeed, the Turkish resentment is so vehement that the United
	States Senate drew back from approving a resolution designating 
	April 24 as a day of rememberance of "the Armenian Genocide of 1915-
	1923" (to be continued).

				    ***

	Mutlu, let me guess - The New York Times editors were corrupt,
	they were bribed by Armenian terrorists, they were unconscious
	when writing this, they were on drugs, they were actually all
	Communists, Feminists and Environmentalists, they were turkophobes,
	actually it does not matter anyway, because ... "The Men Are Like
	That" .... "Professor Shaw" ..... "Boyadjian" .... help me here,
	would you?
From: macko@pilot.njin.net (Peter C. Macko)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:26:18 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


  oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:

>   and then be thrown out on some absurd basis. To most Russians in the Baltics,
>   Baltics is their home. It is utterly inhumane to force them to live.
								   ^^^^
  Yep, shooting them is more humane and solves the problem of minority rights. 
If there is no minority then there is no need to argue about the rights they 
are being denied. ;-)  (Sorry Oleg, I just couldn't resist.) 



					-PCM
-- 

  Peter C. Macko                      Internet: macko@pilot.njin.net
  LCSR/Network Research                         macko@cs.rutgers.edu
  Telecommunications/Network Services     UUCP: {backbone}!rutgers!cs!macko
  Rutgers Computing Services,  Rutgers University (Piscataway, NJ)
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Visa and border control
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:19:49 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Boston University

In article <9209041557.AA23677@sandman.cs.hut.fi> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>   >almost impossible to expell them. It is just considered unhuman.
>
>   Oh, of course. Probably your friend just meant: "considered unhuman,
>   if they had not, of course, come from USSR".
>
>  Have you heard stories about expulsions? It is possible to expel
>people from Finland, but it is a long legal process. The ex-Soviets
>are not handled differently from other people from countries with which
>Finland has no agreement about dropping visa formalities.

Finland had (has?) agreement with SU, and was routinely 
returning refugees,
whom they found on their territory. The only way was to cross 
Finland and get to Sweden.

I dont have guts to accuse Finns in something, they just tried
to escape becoming (n+1) republic (16,17?).

But it sounds strange, when people forget it, and pretend that
their first priority is Humanism.

Estonians seem to be more sincere.
Well, ask any Estonian his opinion on Finns (-:[.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7565 soc.culture.soviet:6987