From: warren@pws.ma30.bull.com (Warren Lavallee)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Using the Bible with non-Christians?
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:11:57 GMT

adams@spss.com (Steve Adams - a professing "pro-choice" christian) writes:
>>and believes:
>>2Tim 3:16-17
>>	All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
>>	correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God
>>	may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
>Well, this depends on what you mean by 'God-breathed' and what context you
>take this quote in.  Clearly, the letter to Timothy can only be talking
>about the OT when referring to Scripture...I don't believe in plenary
>verbal inspiration, but I do believe the Bible is inspired.  I think it fits.

All the books in the Bible have been commonly accepted by christians as the 
Scriptures.  Most I know believe that 1Tim 3:16 refers to the entire Bible
(entire = 66 books of OT and NT.)  I see you don't accept the NT as 
infallible, and that explains why you can have a pro-choice opinion to me.

>>1 Cor 3:19-20
>>	For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is
>>	written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ; and again,
>>	"The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
>What's the point?  I counter this with "Know the truth, and the truth shall
>set you free," which says to me that I should seek wisdom, so long as I
>follow God.

Your quoted verse refers to the knowledge of Christ, not of the world. 

I interpret 1Cor 3:19-20 as:
The wisdom of God is more authorative than that of the world.  That
wisdom coming from the Bible.  So if someone scientifically proves
to you that such and such is so, and the Bible says it isn't, then
you believe the Bible a presume that there is an error in the proof.
This is what I call faith.

>>Does anyone else other than me feel it is foolish to be talking about abortion
>>from a Biblical perspective with non-Christians?
>More or less.  But the point is that the Bible is brought into the debate.
>And there are Christians in the debate, on both sides.  I tend to wait for
>someone else to mention religion or the Bible, and then throw in my two cents.

I think it's futile.  No one will win.  What is the point?  It's a 
question of faith.  We know we are not wrong, and they know they are not wrong.
Has anyone in this group been changed from one belief to the other?

>>They don't believe in Jesus Christ.  They don't believe the Bible.  They will
>>argue using the Bible because we believe it and they think it gives them power
>>over us. However without being a Christian, they can NOT understand the Bible.
>I disagree.  The Jews certainly understand the OT.  It is their book,
>after all.  And people can understand the Bible and just not buy it.  Some
>people just have to be shown...(Doubting) Thomas comes to mind.

>>The Bible is a spiritual book that you can only understand fully when you
>>have the Holy Spirit.
>Perhaps...

>>1 Cor 2:13-16
>I agree with this...but it doesn't say to me that unbelievers will not
>understand.  Heck, the best Bible Scholar I know is NOT a Christian...and
>I'm talking theologically, historically and critically speaking.

How do you interpret that from this:
1Cor 2:14: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things
           that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
           to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
           spiritually discerned.

Unbelievers look at the Bible and think it is foolishness.  How can you 
understand something that is foolishness to you?

You can take the Bible on many levels.  Historically, Theologically, etc...
But how many of the "scholars" ask "How can I implement this in my life?"
or "How does this apply to the world today."  MOST (not all) of the ones
I hear about will tell you a long blurb about tradition, and times, and
language, and them empty the Scriputes of their meaning for today?
Or they change Scriptures around.  One guy was a professing christian
homosexual.  He said Romans 1 had nothing to do with homosexuality.
He had gone through decades of Bible training.

			Romans 1:21-25
	For although they knew God, they neither glorified him
	as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became
	futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Although
	they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged
	the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like
	mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.  Therefore
	God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to
	sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one
	another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie,
	and worshiped and served created things rather than the
	Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen.


>Not being Christians does not imply no values.  Morals and ethics can come
>from sources other than religion...they might just be different than the
>ones you like.  I have two sets of morals...one for myself (I stand by
>Christ's teachings) and then one for society, based on concepts of freedom
>and personal autonomy.  I won't impose my morals on someone else, and ask
>in return that they agree to do the same.

Sorry,
absolute values, not values.  They have dynamic values.

>>With facts.  Facts come right against the lies that the enemy is using. 
>>Facts can be verified in the world.
>Facts like what?

(This is an example, I don't have my references here.)
In a recent scientific study of  a cross section of 1000 women,
5% of all 1st trimester abortions ended in death for the mother.

Or something like that.  It'd very hard to find any truth now a days
in the world.  People distort truth to meet their beliefs.  You have 
to WORK to find out what is really happening.  Sure you can read the
Bible and know, but when it comes to proving it to unbelievers its
rough.

>>What do christians think?
>I think we should keep our morals to ourselves and to those who willingly
>come to follow Christ.  No Christian should impose his moral values on
>anyone else, and above all should be tolerant of others.  If we want this
>kind of treatment, we must first give it.

I agree I can not force someone to stop sinning. Consider however
that some of the ten commandments are laws.  So there is a point.  
Laws are based on morals.  The majorities morals, whether Christian
or other, therefore can be legislated.  By legislating morals, we are
just preserving & protecting them.

	Matthew 28:18-20
	Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and
	on earth has been given to me.  Therefore go and make disciples
	of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of
	the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey
	everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always,
	to the very end of the age."


1st: go and make disciples
2nd: baptize them
3rd: teach them to obey

So first God saves them, then they learn to obey, and gradually stop sinning.

	Isaiah 55:7-9
	Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.
	Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and
	to our God, for he will freely pardon.  "For my thoughts are
	not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares
	the LORD.  "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are
	my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

--
Root out the cause, not the effects.                           Be | true
Do not distort the truth.                                       --+--
Pay attention.                                                    | Unbeliever
Work: warren@beloved.unidesk.com  Compu$erve: 76450,3463   answer | the call.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion