HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: triple aspects <long religious rant>
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:16:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.175027.26848@lmt.mn.org> 
ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:

A very nice post. I was awakened last night by the call of coyote and the
response of dogs, so this does not surprise me.

>  Since I work in a city, I wanted to be able to find the Goddess
>and the God in traffic jams, in crowded elevators, in shopping
>malls.

The thing is there too. The thing is everywhere, all pervasive, it just
becomes a challange to see. Where coyote is, the thing is. But coyote is not
required, just don't tell coyote that! Imagine how you would feel if coyote
said the human being is not required. But then coyote would know, coyote is
much older that the human being. Coyote knows the time before the human being.

>  I find three-fold Goddess and two-fold God to be very convenient
>symbols for public ritual, however, and a lot of focus can be
>developed during a ritual if you point out the thinness of the
>walls between those symbols.

Yes, one must keep in mind that this is metaphor, not fact.

>  Why do I tell this story in a thread about the aspects of
>the Goddess?

Makes perfect sense to me. When studying the field of opposites, one must
first see and know the opposites. One must know the differences, only then
can one begin to see the similarities and only then can one begin to see how
the field of opposites are just an illusion, an illusion of the transcendent,
that which is beyond time and space and you and me.

>  The aspects of the Goddess are snapshots of a dynamic and
>evolving thing -- something which can not be named, but which
>somehow can be conceived.  Breaking Her down into smaller and
>smaller pieces gives us something to work with, a way of talking
>with each other about Her and ourselves.

The transcendent is transcendent. Originally, humans did not know why there
are seasons, the reason for seasons was transcendent. Now, thanks to science,
we know why there are seasons, the reason for seasons is no longer
transcendent, it is caused by the tilt in the earth's axis of rotation. But,
for each thing that has been explained, many more things have appeared that
are now transcendent. This is the transcendent, always there always ... well
you get the picture. But, how to know of this thing? Reductionism. Break it
down into pieces that make some sense, like God and Goddess, and go from
there, but always remember that you are modeling a thing that is transcendent.
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: paganism a religion.. <rant warning>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:23:59 GMT

sj1s+@andrew.cmu.edu ("Sherrianne M. Johnson") writes:
: 
:    Hmm.  I was not aware that all pagans, to be pagans, must believe in
: a god/goddess, or deity.  I do not think that this is a fair judgement. 
: I do not fit into any religious system, whether it be Christian, Wiccan,
: or Moslem.  I feel a very spiritual tie with the earth, and nature, and
: am very ready to follow that and try to become rather a healer (both of
: the earth and of humankind).  I enjoy rituals, herbalism, and various
: other activities which are often thought of as "pagan", or so I thought.

You are correct. Donal has a definition that is more exclusionary than 
that of many/most who post here - and appears to be very dogmatic about
that definition. I far prefer your inclusive attitude - it does not set
up an atmosphere of "us vs them".

:     You say that you feel threatened on this newsgroup of showing your
: faith and discussing your deities.  If the move that you would make
: (making this ONLY a religious newsgroup) is implemented, then I will
: feel the same way.  I may be able to observe, and read posts as I have
: been, but it seems that I would be the one slammed if I dared to post
: from my "atheist" point of view.  This doesn't seem fair to me.
: 
: Am I wrong?  Are there other people who identify as pagans out there who
: feel as I do?  Or should I stop posting right now?

As you have seen from my postings - I agree 100%. But then, I have always
welcomed even Christian postings - if they were reasoned and not just a
lot of dogmatic noisemaking. I personally welcome input/comments from all
believe systems - both religious and non-religious.

: *sigh*  Maybe I should have posted this earlier, in the huge Pagan/pagan
: debate...looked too hot for me...

Nah! Just a few of us arguing over trivial matters. I doubt seriously if it
is going to have any great effect on the scheme of the universe.

Bill

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 20:08:04 GMT

  Would someone please make a list of all of the books which are
being mentioned and post it sometime when the additions have
kindof died down ???

  It just occurred to me that here is probably the greatest
source of suggestions for reading material that I've ever
had access too, and my news reader is chopping off stuff
over two days old (even on weekends, damnit, so I lose friday
night and sometimes Saturday too !!)

  Of course, if you also included the name of the person who
suggested the book, we'd be able to tell how likely we are to
like it based on our feelings about the electronic representation
of the person who posted it ... or am I being an elitist again?

  Let's add another thread too -- Pagan Music !!!

"Incantations" by Mike Oldfield ...

  Side one, a woman's choir chanting "Diana, Luna, Lucina ...".
       backed by drums and piccallo (sp?) trumpets.
  Side two, more "Diana, Luna, Lucina ...".
  Side three, pretty ok music and an ode to Hiawatha.
  Side four, major head music and a duet on "Maiden Huntress".

  Major music destinctly P/pagan !!

Also, a big vote for The Pretender's "Hymm to Her"


  Blessed be, Ciaran.

  "Give unto the flying hart
        space to breath, how short soever ..."
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Aug 92 02:09:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.232426.27943@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>	Two quotes with regard to Hitler and Christianity:

[actually, only one]

>	Secondly, "The devil may quote scriptures.". Perhaps not a good
>choice of quote considering its history, but just because Hitler called
>himself a Christian, it would be ridiculous to call all Christians Hitler.
>How would you like it if aliens judged humanity by Dan Quayle.

Of course xtian=!Hitler.  I am, however, alarmed at the frequent use
christianity has as a tool for looney-tunes who peddle hate.  While nice
christians do exist (big shock), the religion seems to lend itself well
to prejudicial ends, as does one other.  Whenever you run into a big
group of people (especially here in Uhmurka) that REALLY HATE one kind
of person of another, they are ALWAYS using christianity to back them
up.  Makes me think that the religion has to undergo a pretty thorough
housecleaning to keep it from attracting hate-peddlers.  Just as with
people, you can judge a church by the company it keeps, and some people
who call themselves christians need to be broomed into the trashheap.  I
honestly think that christianity needs to undergo a long, hard period of
self-reflection and examination to find out why bigots are so attracted
to it.

Blessings,
Janis
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Intolerance and the pagan "community"
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 10:54:38 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:

> Goddess (an exclamation, which I *DO* not use in vain), here in psuedo-libera
> Austin, TX, *I* sure don't feel safe in wearing next-to-top shirt button open
> since my pentacle would show, even in a liberal company, that has no (apparen
> problem with gays.  *WHO* would stand up for me? Who would help make sure I
> could pay my bills, and child support, if I were to lose my job due to 
> religious discrimination? There's a fair pagan community down here, but expec

Just a note here, not a comment on your entire post. I was listening 
to a lesbian lawyer talking yesterday on KPFT's Breakthrough Show. She 
was saying that there is absolutely no protection in Texas from being 
fired for being Gay. There IS, however, protection from being fired 
for religious discrimination. You would have an open and shut case.

Blessed Be!

BTW, are you going to CMA Samhain??? :D


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:53:39 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug13.184947.7664@lmt.mn.org> ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>>" In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd
>>ask people for their favorite works of fiction with pagan
>>themes."
>
>  C. J. Cherryh's "Rysulka" (sp?) trilogy, without question.
>Matches my idea of how magic works in a pagan world, anyway.
>

	I have always been entertained by Elizabeth H. Boyer's books.  Like
wise with Poul and Karen Anderson's Ys series.

Cheers,
Carl

ps - I might add that Poul Anderson's reworking of Hrolf Kraki's Saga
	really totally kicks ass!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: jet, ruby
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <1992Aug14.004756.25408@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>
>[excellent discription by my friend Sally deleted]
>
>Hi, Sally! <hug>  What's the name of the book, dear?? :)

ed! you *are* there!! my system dumped a lot of stuff and i never saw
your reply (if there was one) to my questions about auras - gawd, was
it even this news group??? too much sun in ory-gun, that's the
problem.... anyway, the name of the book is "cunningham's encyclopedia
of crystal, gem and metal magic", scott cunningham is the author,
llewellyn is the publisher. 
hugs to you too!!
sal

>-- 
>Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
>"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
>happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
>and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 18:49:47 GMT

>" In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd
>ask people for their favorite works of fiction with pagan
>themes."

  C. J. Cherryh's "Rysulka" (sp?) trilogy, without question.
Matches my idea of how magic works in a pagan world, anyway.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu (BORCO)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: this Virgin Mary appearance thang
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:04:16 -0500
Organization: Gormenghast

In article <2A8B215C.1526@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> It was a reflection off of the timed streetlamps bouncing off a bar
> window and hitting the house.

Seems that some "supernatural" stuff is accepted as long as it DOES look
like Mary or Jesus or Elvis.  Interesting, as the same folk may say there
are no such things as ghosts or whatnot, even while seeing the Big J's face
in a billboard picture of spaghetti.

And, of course, it HAS to be a "supernatural" thing; anyone claiming to be
M/J/E would be sent off to the head clinic, like peaceful people claiming
to be M/J/E is a bad thing or something.


----
Bitnet:     sjs@ifasgnv              "Precious and fish are the moments we
Internet:   sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu      two can share."          -- Gollum
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:24:26 GMT

	Two quotes with regard to Hitler and Christianity:
	Firstly, "Religion is the opium of the people.". Karl Marx may not
have known any working class people, but his observation of the church is,
I believe, correct. Used in Tsarist Russia the clergy were used by the
Tsars to preach their gospel to the masses. Hitler sought to do a similar
thing, and this is probably the only reason for his association with the
church.
	Secondly, "The devil may quote scriptures.". Perhaps not a good
choice of quote considering its history, but just because Hitler called
himself a Christian, it would be ridiculous to call all Christians Hitler.
How would you like it if aliens judged humanity by Dan Quayle.
-- 
Conrad Leviston	 | Got to find a brightness in the soul,
mongoose@yoyo.	 | Not look outside to find out where we are,
cc.monash.edu.au | Otherwise you won't be satisfied, 
Save the gherkin | 'Til you've made posession of the stars. (K.Wallinger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jasmine@sscux1.ssc.gov (Karissa Walden)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 01:36:28 GMT


My favorites include anything by Charles de Lint and right now I'm addicted to
the author who wrote _Gossamer Axe_ and _Strands of Starlight_.  I will post
others as I remember them

Karissa
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Chocolate (was Re: "gangway, folx")
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 02:21:21 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

> In article <_85m#9p@lynx.unm.edu>, swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) wri
> >
> Couldn't I just do the ritual of cleansing with each
> Bitch Goddess? (pant, pant)
>
well, one of the bitch goddess is only interested in lavendar oil rubbed on by
her FEMALE worshippers - or the other bitch goddesses *grin*

> > I, BITCH GODDESS NUMBER THREE, REQUIRE THAT YOU ALSO PLACE
> > IN THE BOX CONTAINING THE PLACATION OFFERING ONE RED ROSE
> > AND AN INSCRIPTION IN CALLIGRAPHY SAYING, I BESEECH THEE,
> > SHANNON ELIZABETH BITCH GODDESS, TO BE FAVOURABLE TOWARD
> > ALL MY EFFORTS IN PUBLIC DISCOURSE RELATING TO WOMEN'S
> > ISSUES.  I HOPE THIS OFFERING PLEASES THEE ABUNDANTLY.
> > AND WHAT NICE BLUE EYES YOU HAVE.
>
> How'd you know my eyes were blue??  Oh *I* get it, it's still
> part of the placation. *Ahem*, Shannon Elizabeth, what *nice*
> blue eyes you have!!
>
> > BG3 HAS SPOKEN.
>
> WHEW! She sure has!!

interestingly enough, i have nice blue eyes too...  now, what color are janis'?

                                      -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
      No visible means of support          Silence \      / Action
      and you have not seen nothing yet.      =     \    /    =
      Everything's come together.           Death    \  /    Life
                                                      \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Faith and violence (was: Wasting Time (was: Hitler 
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
(was: Numbers)))
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 21:07:12 GMT

  LeGrand said something that reminded me of a story about
"scarey Witches".

  This isn't about modern day anything, it's about perceptions
of past events (although perhaps not past attitudes).

  Way back, some folks at college found out I was a Witch, and
one who had (up to that point) been a friend talked with me for a
couple of hours about what the Bible says about Witches (joy).

  Then she said; "Even after the horrible things that Witches
did during the inquisitions, you'd still say you're a Witch?"

  That really confused me.  So I tried something.

  What were the Witches accused of doing during the time of
the inquisitions?

  "They'd worship the debbel and have sex with him"

  What else?

  "Well, they'd make people sick or make crops fail."

  All of them?

  "No, some were just healers or people who didn't worship
Christ."

  So, then, what happened to these people when they were 'found
out'?

  "The inquisition would question them."

  Which is a nice way of saying what?

  "Ok, the inquisition would torture confessions out of them and
then strangle them or behead them or kill them in other ways."

  And the inquisition were working for whom?

  "The church, of course."

  So people working for the church would find these people who
danced with dat ol debbel and had consentual sex and maybe made
some people sick and maybe made some people well.  Then they'd
force false confessions out of them and kill them in terrible
ways.

  "Uhm, yeh."

  And if you were living back then, you'd be afraid of whom, the
Witches, or the Inquisition?

  "The Witches, of course."

  Ok.  So I'm still confused.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:34:04 GMT

system@korova.uucp (razorback) writes:
> as for unimaginative...well..i dont think [Heinlein's] called 
> "the father of sci-fi" for the HELL of it...:>

Ahem.  I've always heard that Verne was the "father of sci-fi".
Not some young upstart like Heinlein.

As a squid, you should *know* better.  :-)

Blessings for 20,000 leagues!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:38:17 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <ogorman.713903414@unix1.tcd.ie> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge) writes:
>A definition of what (roughly) constitutes pagan fiction would help, but
>anyway...
>
>'The way of Wyrd' by Brian Bates(?) 
>
>The story of a christian missionary in pagan britain and of his
>conversion...

	More accuarately, pagan _Saxon_ England (to distinguish from pagan
Roman Britain, pagan Celtic Britain, pagan proto-Celtic Britain, etc. - not
a flame :) just lettin' folks know).
	I picked this up on a lark (I admit to being rather wary of fiction
specific to 'fringe' groups like neo-pagans, SCA, sf-fans, etc.).  I was
pleasantly surprised to find I enjoyed it.  It was very interesting.
	The author apparently as been researching Anglo-Saxon shamanism and
suchlike and instead of publishing his stuff as a scholarly piece (which I
hope he will do too!) he has offered it as a novel.  This did somewhat
hinder the story aspect, but as long as you were concious that this was his
purpose it worked very well.  I can't claim to have studied the subject as
thoroughly as the author, but it was a skillfully wrought interpretation.
	I think it would sell easily and better if placed in the Science
Fiction section, rather than relegated to an obscure occult/religion
bookstore (like the one I found it in).

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 05:37:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.181352.29162@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>
>The germanic futhark (runic alphabet) is the one I was talking
>about in my last posting.  It has 25 runes.  The longest futhark
>is the Anglo-Saxon futhork, with 31 runes.  (The spelling
>'futhork' is supposed to be different.) The shortest seems to be
>the "younger" futhark, either Danish or Swedo-Norwegian dialect,
>with 16 runes.

 No! no! No! The Germanic Elder Futhark (the root of them all) has 24 (not
25!) runes. The 25th was added by Ralph Blum (may he cook in his own
juices for passing off his schlock!).

 Some of us feel rather strongly about this, being purists basing it on
tradition.

>The common fortune-telling rune sets have 25 symbols, which
>correspond pretty well with the germanic futhark, plus one
>additional which (I believe) is blank.  In addition to the
>extra blank rune, they use a slightly different order than
>Page does.

All from Blum and his successors.

Wassail,
Grendel
Gothi of Barnstokker Hearth

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
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begin 644 GRENDEL.PUB
MF58``1%^*@Q":6QL:6YG<RP@06S^`2N`$7JAHA^YG*D:W0:>,_,\N<XL-]7BN
LV+1/'DT4SH3V2$'*(9NAE_,+VB9R.4=@$9R.J1?CL3H!9@HR8+7DD3@%`!$%E
``
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Anthony 'the Bard' Hobbs)
Subject: Re: that st00pid survey
Reply-To: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council, Wgtn, NZ
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:18:07 GMT

In article <920818174611_70253.2621_CHC74-1@CompuServe.COM>, 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes:
>When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is not a valid answer)

Why not?

>If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?

Define "heaven".

>If you were to die today and God asked you, "Why should I let you into my
>heaven?" What would you say?

Which God?

>What is my "agenda" for asking these questions?  Just curious.

Nice try, friend. :-)

Blessings and malcontentedness,
anthony (the Bard)
--
Anthony Hobbs             the Bard                hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz    
OverPope, First Holy and Unreformed Church of Frozen Yoghurt - romantic poet - 
synth player extraordinaire - kate bush is goddess - hail Eris - praise "Bob"!
DISCLAIMER: I am not Romanian and was not head of the Securitate for 15 years.