HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike_r@nic.cerf.net (Mike Roberts)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: surfing in France?
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:34:22 GMT
Organization: CERFnet

In article <5914@libra.cs.nps.navy.mil> adaptive@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (zyda res acct) writes:
>I will be in France in mid September and plan to surf along the
>southwest coast. Since this is my first trip, I would be interested in
>hearing from other people that have surfed this area. Also, I am
>thinking about bringing my own board but it might be easier to buy one
>while I'm there and then sell it when I leave. Are there surf shops in
>the area? Any additional info about places to stay, eat, etc, would be
>appreciated.
>

Great place, very uncrowded. You need your won transport to get away 
from the name spots. Laccanua, Hossegor, Biarritz and any where they
hold contest will be crowded. Stay in France when the surf in below
6ft, above it is worth trying the Spanishh breaks.

BRING YOUR OWN SURF STUFF. It is **VERY** expensive is France. Wax is
about $1.50 a bar !!! I would advise a 6'4 or therabouts for hollow 
beachbreak and a 6'10 for the bigger days. Scale according to your
preference for minimum lenght. You may be able to dispose of of
you equipment to pay for the transport of your gear, but be warned,
the Brazillians have in recent years screwed up the prices on used
eqipment by bringing a lot of cheap new boards on the tour with them
Your chances of sale are better outside the contest sites.

The surf reports for the area are good and list most of the main spots.

It is well worth the effort to get off the beaten track thorugh the
forest to find quality uncrowded surf. A VW Van is ideal. I'm
not going to post spots to the net out of respect for the local.

Miss out on Paris. Most french surfers are friendly, but rip-offs 
are common. Watch your gear at all times like a hawk.

Given the current exchange rate, food and accom will seem expensive
for someone from the USA. Best to camp and cook for yourself. Buy food
at the large stores like Carrefour, as the price differential b/t these
places and the small local stores is huge. I used to live on cheap red
wine, bread, cheese and sald, with the occasional pastry (these are 
very good).

Singles note: Unless you speak french, ot can convince some bimbo (M or
F) that you are a pro, you have no chance of pulling.

The local markets are a good source of food, too, as are small bread
and pasty shop,s

Bye,

Mike (A brit in yank land)


Newsgroups: alt.surfing
From: cd517@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Douglas J. Narby)
Subject: Not to profane, but where else can I go?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 23:57:46 GMT


I'm  a waveski enthusiast in South Florida.  When we have waves,
which ain't often, I'm usually the only on out there sitting
down.  Anyone see any paddlers on their local break? Where?
BTW, if you think that a waveski has a motor, save your flames
'til you know better-it's like a kayak, only designed for
surfing. Upside down, mine looks just like a fat shortboard.


.sig? what .sig?
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: LA Surfers
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:24:24 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England

In article <1992Aug18.150825.7773@ccd.harris.com> jsh@controls.ccd.harris.com (Joe Hoff) writes:
>

>
>Is it safe to say, then that LA surfers often can't surf for shit?
>:) :) :)
>
 
Not really.  There's been quite a few notible hot surfers come from
the Hermosa-Redondo area like Mike Purpus, Chris Frohoff, and Chris Barela.

Also, Malibu (which is in LA County) produced the legends Mickey Dora, 
Lance Carson, and Johnny Fain.  More recent notables from Malibu
are  J. Riddle and Alan Sarlo.  

Chris
From: u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: surfing on TV
Date: 20 Aug 92 05:08:11 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

s1139457@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (ERLS (Erland Briggs)) writes:

>        Didn't anybody else see this???? It didn't catch the name of the video
>        it was from, but I think it would be cool to find out how it was
>        actually done!
>        Check-ya L8r.
>        Erls.

I certainly didn't see it as I don't have a TV (for what that was worth).

N.
-- 
Women need to find the right partner to have sex (and sometimes the right
excuse),Men just need to find the right place.
From: adaptive@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (zyda res acct)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: surfing in France?
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:17:36 GMT
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

I will be in France in mid September and plan to surf along the
southwest coast. Since this is my first trip, I would be interested in
hearing from other people that have surfed this area. Also, I am
thinking about bringing my own board but it might be easier to buy one
while I'm there and then sell it when I leave. Are there surf shops in
the area? Any additional info about places to stay, eat, etc, would be
appreciated.

ciao for now,

george dabro
dabro@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil
From: u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Worst Wipeouts
Date: 15 Aug 92 03:59:02 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia


	My worst wipeout is one that wasn't so much painful but just alot of
fun.I wasn't injured at all.In fact I rarely get injured in the 
surf(touch wood).The worst I've ever had was four stitches to the side 
of my head.(I'll only recount that if someone asks).
Anyhow,this day I was surfing a break down at my local break in Narooma.
The surf was about double to triple overhead.That's 6-9 feet from the
back for those of you (Lud) wondering.
Those of you who doubt the size,.... don't it was bigger on average than the 
usual six foot(back) day.I remember asking this guy what size he thought
one wave was."Well over the six foot mark" was his reply.
	I don't know why but my first waves always stand out in my 
mind(first impressions are lasting impressions they say).

	I went for this wave (it would have been about a 7 footer).
I was too complacent going for it and slipped about a third of the
way going down the face.I then bounced the next third until I penetrated
the wave face and the wave started to suck me back up the face.
My board went over and I followed it landing on it just to make sure it 
was there... ;-)
	The wipeout was pretty mind in shock value.Such as when you duck-dive
a big wave and your head get's thrown around.There was non-of that.
It was pretty deep water I landed in but it's just a bizarre sensation
being waitless and having time to think(and worry) as you go over the
falls.
	A bit like when you are in the middle of a river rapid,and you lose 
balance.You still have time to think about running into rocks
or being swept under a tree.

Anyone copping a big wipe-out.I tell you the best way to avoid panicking
is to count to ten.It gives you something to think about whilst 
under-water and stops you from panicking at all.
You can enter a time-less panick if you get under-water and  only
think about wiping out and drowning.That panic makes time
seem longer and the wipe-out feel worse.

I now seem to count automatically when I get a bad wipe-out.It happens 
naturally.

Bye,
Nigel.
From: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: LA Surfers
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:27:25 GMT
Reply-To: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

->>Is it safe to say, then that LA surfers often can't surf for shit?
->>:) :) :)
->Not really.  There's been quite a few notible hot surfers come from
->the Hermosa-Redondo area like Mike Purpus, Chris Frohoff, and Chris Barela.

->Also, Malibu (which is in LA County) produced the legends Mickey Dora,
->Lance Carson, and Johnny Fain.  More recent notables from Malibu
->are  J. Riddle and Alan Sarlo.
->
->Chris

Chris ma man,
  A joke man, a joke!  Sewage spills....surf like "shit" Do you get it now.


   O
   I\   Brian Kiviat (301)227-1833       Sometimes the truth is hidden,
   I \  kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil         Like a shadow in the darkness.
  /     David Taylor Model Basin                  -Master Po
   \___________________________
			     \\
From: u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Surf Vid's.
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:34:28 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

ludwig@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Ludwig Omachen) writes:

>In article <1992Aug20.050044.21413@cs.uow.edu.au> u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson) writes:
>>mtemple@calstatela.edu (Mark Temple) writes:
>>
>>>> About a month ago I rented "Point Break" 
>>>oxygen mask range).  Rent a real surf movie like wave warriors, rolling thunder
>>
>>Rolling Thunder:
>>That's the one we watched at Torquay Pub(remember it Lud?) 
>               ^^^^ 
>Yep, I remember it, but  we ???,
>as I recall, you were flaked out across 4 chair's after the
>first five minutes, due to being totally surfed out during that
>net-surfari :-).

That's where you are totally and un-foundingly wrong.
I crashed after the first five minutes of surfer's.
What do I need to watch a movie about surfer's ????
Rolling Thunder I did watch... quizz me if you doubt
this fact professor Bear.....:-)

Bye,
N.

>Personally, I think "Endless summer" is still pretty hard to beat,
>even though it's been around for, well somewhere around a quarter century,
>really looking forward to his next film.

>Cheer's all, keep surfing,
>Lud.
-- 
Women need to find the right partner to have sex (and sometimes the right
excuse),Men just need to find the right place.
From: cisneros@cs.ucf.edu (Jaime Cisneros)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Callin' all Zen Surf Masters
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:30:31 GMT
Organization: University of Central Florida, Orlando

In article <1992Aug18.121650.19401@gdr.bath.ac.uk> you write:
..... some stuff deleted.
>
>If you want to live cheap and surf, head for Latin America.  However,
                                                              ^^^^^^^
>there you have to deal with disease, bandidos, poverty, corrupt police,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and substandard medical care.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

Interesting reasons.  I would only like to know where you got the
information that all that happens in all Latin America.  I think you
should read or find out more before making such generalization!!!!!!

  Jaime Cisneros
From: ludwig@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Ludwig Omachen)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Surf Vid's.
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:50:17 GMT
Organization: Deakin University, Geelong, Australia

In article <1992Aug20.050044.21413@cs.uow.edu.au> u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson) writes:
>mtemple@calstatela.edu (Mark Temple) writes:
>
>>> About a month ago I rented "Point Break" 
>>oxygen mask range).  Rent a real surf movie like wave warriors, rolling thunder
>
>Rolling Thunder:
>That's the one we watched at Torquay Pub(remember it Lud?) 
               ^^^^ 
Yep, I remember it, but  we ???,
as I recall, you were flaked out across 4 chair's after the
first five minutes, due to being totally surfed out during that
net-surfari :-).

Personally, I think "Endless summer" is still pretty hard to beat,
even though it's been around for, well somewhere around a quarter century,
really looking forward to his next film.

Cheer's all, keep surfing,
Lud.
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
From: smith@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au
Subject: Re: I'm bored....
Organization: External Studies, Murdoch University
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 00:47:11 GMT

Nigel

Have faith.  We are just as bored over here in West Aus. as you guys are in 
the East.  Boomer and I headed down to Margaret River last weekend to check 
out the situation and found nothing but slop, slop, slop.  Bitchin.

Thank god for the tavern.

S
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
From: mdh410@huxley.anu.edu.au (Michael D Hanslip)
Subject: Re: Tell me something about longboards
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:45:25 GMT

airey@woof.asd.sgi.com (John Airey) writes:


>  Okay, can somebody out there characterize longboards for me?

>  Like what the hell is the difference between a 9'6'' and an 8'6'', 
>  (besides a foot, for the wise-asses out there) etc.

>  I've been riding thrusters between 6'4'' and 6'8'' on eastside Santa
>  Cruz reef breaks. I weigh about 150. And for those that give a shit,
>  it was good today. Head high. multi-wave sets. Way too many people.

>  Suppose I want a longboard. What would I be looking for?
Something about 9 feet to 10 feet. Preferably 20 years old. 
New Mal's aren't the same-too much like a short board but longer-too light.
They are good for scaring away the crowds and you can catch waves no one 
else can. With the added bonus of being able to take out two or more 
Boogie Boarders at once.

Newsgroups: alt.surfing
From: breeze@well.sf.ca.us (Jeff Baust)
Subject: Cape Cod surf?
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: alt.surfing
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:49:14 GMT




I'm moving back to Boston shortly, and thought I'd take up surfing next
summer.  How's the Cape for that?  I remember Nauset when I was a kid,
and they used to surf there.  Also Coast Guard Beach.
From: mtemple@calstatela.edu (Mark Temple )
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: missed the point?
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:41:48 GMT
Reply-To: mtemple@calstatela.edu
Organization: Cal State University, Los Angeles

In article 7633@gdr.bath.ac.uk, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
> In article <1992Aug18.150825.7773@ccd.harris.com> jsh@controls.ccd.harris.com (Joe Hoff) writes:
> >
> 
> >
> >Is it safe to say, then that LA surfers often can't surf for shit?
> >:) :) :)
> >
>  
> Not really.  There's been quite a few notible hot surfers come from
> the Hermosa-Redondo area like Mike Purpus, Chris Frohoff, and Chris Barela.
> 
> Also, Malibu (which is in LA County) produced the legends Mickey Dora, 
> Lance Carson, and Johnny Fain.  More recent notables from Malibu
> are  J. Riddle and Alan Sarlo.  
> 
> Chris

get the feeling that chris didn't recognize the joke?

  not a flame, just an observation

    LA sponger
From: kieffer@spf.trw.com (Robert Kieffer)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: irc info, US/AU/other timezones, surf report, and worst wipeout!
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:29:11 GMT
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA

Hey gang,

Finally got irc working on our network here... here's how

- ftp ircII2.1.5b.tar.Z (and the optional help file ircIIhelp2.1.5.tar.Z)  
from one of these sites/directories:
(U.S.)	ashley.cs.widener.edu:/pub/src/network
(?)	gipsy.vmars.tuwien.ac.at:/pub/unix
(U.S.)	capella.eetech.mcgill.ca:/pub/irc
(?)	kragar.eff.org:/pub/irc
(Eur.)	faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:/mounts/epix/epix/net/irc
(Aus.)	coombs.anu.edu.au:/pub/irc/ircII
- Tweek the Makefile as necessary and compile the sucker.
- Wait for Nigel to set up a net-surf B.S. session!


Regarding international timezones:
My Atlas lists the following offsets (in hours) from Greenwich Mean Time  
(GMT):

United States ('Not sure how daylight savings time figures into this???)
	Pacific: +8
	Mountain: +7
	Central: +6
	Eastern: +5
Australia
	Western: -8
	Central: -9:30
	Eastern: -10
South America:
	West: +5
	Central: +4
	East: +3
England: 0
Spain/France: -1
China: -8
Japan: ('Not sure I've got this right... the atlas isn't real clear)
	North: -11
	South: -9

"+" times are a day behind "-" times... For example: 8am Sunday in Los  
Angeles is 2pm Monday in Sydney (God, I hope I got that right! :^)

So, to correlate some times between the U.S. and Australia:
0100 GMT = 6am U.S.(pacific) = Noon Aus. (western)
0900 GMT = Noon U.S.(pacific) = 6pm Aus. (western)
0900 GMT = 6pm U.S.(pacific) = Midnight Aus. (western)
0900 GMT = Midnight U.S.(pacific) = 6am Aus. (western)

How does the Noon US/6pm Aus. time sound?



Enough techno-weenie-goon-dweeb stuff...
Surf here sucks right now.
The one wipeout I have indelibly engraved in my head is one when I was  
first learning.  I was surfing a 7' Becker single fin... I tried taking  
off on a 6' close out wave (not knowing any better), stood up at the top  
of a  wave, and too-late realised that I was gonna take a major trip over  
the falls.  So, I kick the board out in front of me and try to fall back  
into the wave... this resulted in me going over falls spread-eagled, and  
when I looked down all I saw was the BIG red fin of my board coming  
straight up at me between my legs - AAAAAAGGGGH!!!! - I still get the  
willies when I think about it... 'don't know exactly what happened after  
that because I went through the blender big time, but I never even hit my  
board (thank you, God!)... Whew, I gotta go get rid of these cold sweats  
now!

(... and then there's all those times my surf bud has run me over... :^)


Talk to ya later,
Robert Kieffer
kieffer@spf.trw.com
From: ludwig@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Ludwig Omachen)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Bells surf report
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:47:52 GMT
Organization: Deakin University, Geelong, Australia


Date:		Friday 21 Aug.
Time:		7:45 am
Area:		Bell's Beach area, Torquay, Australia 
Weather:	Fine & sunny
Winds:		Offshore 5-10 knots
Air temp:	about 10 C
Water temp:	about 10 C
Surf:		Sets from 1.5 overhead to around 2.5 overhead,
		swell is pretty cleaan,  perfect faces, not too
		crowded yet, about 15 guys at Winkie, and 8 at Bells

Forecast:	Wind is forecast to be offshore all day

Comments:	Much the same as yesterday morning,
		excellent conditions, last night was a little bigger,
		with the biggest sets around triple overhead, but
		waves were a bit on the flat side, and a little bumpy
		due to a light onshore during the afternoon.
		Should be great waves on all the reef breaks in the
		area all day.

Cheer's all, keep surfing
Lud.
From: clp@gumby.Altos.COM (Chuck L. Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: LA Surfers
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:18:12 GMT
Reply-To: clp@altos.COM (Chuck L. Peterson)
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

>put in 30-45 minutes of surf during my lunch break.  So far I haven't 
>mutated :^) and no sinus infections .... yet! :(
>

Funny you should mention sinus infections...  For about 8 months
I've been surfing about twice a week in the Santa Cruz area without
getting sick.  I recently went down to Huntington Beach for,
among other things, a little warm water surfing.

I was out for a total of 3 hours during a weekend.  For the next three
days I developed a completely gross sinus infection.  Is there
something about the LA ocean I should know about?  Perhaps some sort of
Disease Index to measure the water quality would be appropriate.

clp
From: aglgrad@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (A Garret Lisi)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Stationary Waves
Date: 22 Aug 1992 11:07:44 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, UCSD
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sdphu1.ucsd.edu

There's been some talk of a surfable (or at least bodyboard-
able) stationary wave on the net.  I'm not sure about this wave
but I did run across a cool related article in a scientific
journal:

"A stationary oblique breaking wave for laboratory testing of
     surfboards"  in
Journal of Fluid Mechanics (1976), vol. 78, part 3, pp.459-480

It's amazing what they allocated grant money for back in the
seventies.  Two Aussies managed to sculpt an obstacle that
deflected a water stream into a scaled down ridable wave and
then proceeded to test the wave riding properties of several
model surfboards.  Of course they were stuck with single fin
boards back then but a lot of their findings were quite amusing.
Check out this article if you get a chance.

The idea of getting shacked up in a "concrete room" instead of
the "green room" doesn't sound as good for the soul but it would
be fun as hell.  Imagine a steady pipeline barrel maintained on a
glassy, fast running section of the Colorado River...
These guys hint at the potential.  I'd like to know where it's
gone.

Shaka,
Garrett
From: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: alt.waves
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:49:18 GMT
Reply-To: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In alt.surfing, Axman writes:
>Hi guys,
>
>Can anyone out there tell me what the alt.waves newsgroup is
>all about? There is no information available on it, and
>it seems that no one has ever posted anything on it. At least
>not in the area.
>
>A-propos waves, how come doesn't anybody post surf reports?

Yo Axman, I have never seen anthing there either, it is a great unknown.

We do post surf reports, but in my case, there has been no surf.  The
reports used to be very technical ie:  wind:12 knts SE, Water temp: 71 etc.
They were very impersonal. Lately people have been very verbose and
artistic with their posts due to increased amounts of alcohol and drugs.
Naw, things seem to kind of swing back and forth stylisticaly.  You
read something, and return post with the same style. I enjoy the more
descriptive posts as it makes the places more visible in my mind. My mind
is only place within 8 hrs plane flight with overhead waves. The Aussies
haven't posted much lately so they either have no waves or lots of em
and no time to waste in front of this stupid keyboard as in my case.

Catch ya later Bro'
   O
   I\   Brian Kiviat (301)227-1833       Sometimes the truth is hidden,
   I \  kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil         Like a shadow in the darkness.
  /     David Taylor Model Basin                  -Master Po
   \___________________________
			     \\
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
From: u8801863@cs.uow.edu.au (Nigel Brendon Robinson)
Subject: Another silly surf-report from Me.
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:53:19 GMT


Date: Monday(after the other yesterday.)
Time: About 2pm I think.
Area: East Corrimal,Wollongong Australia.	
Weather:Fine and still good.
Winds: NW 5-10 cunts and 2 knots from my bum.
Air temp:  25 C.
Water temp: cold.
Surf: Small, waist to chest high on sets.

The quality of the surf was good and as such it made the size more bearable.
I did get one ok barrel,the usual 10 floaters on the close-outs.
One snap of the top(that's about all you usually get) stands out in
my mind as I didn't think I was going to make it ,but I did. 
Does anyone out there have trouble doing floaters...if so just ask me
I'm the self-appointed-net-floater-master ni-ugh !!!!
(After Jim Jum of course).

Forecast: Bigger surf will arrive when it gets here.

Til then I'm stuck surfing small waves... :-(

Comments:
	I have finally lined up with Jim Jum to go and 
surf Virgins tommorrow at 3:00pm.

Grrrrrrr ... I want some grunty barrells
Bye,
Nigel.

-- 
Women need to find the right partner to have sex (and sometimes the right
excuse),Men just need to find the right place.
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Callin' all Zen Surf Masters
Date: 23 Aug 92 14:31:44 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In article <1992Aug21.213031.20332@cs.ucf.edu> cisneros@cs.ucf.edu (Jaime Cisneros) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.121650.19401@gdr.bath.ac.uk> you write:
>..... some stuff deleted.
>>
>>If you want to live cheap and surf, head for Latin America.  However,
>                                                              ^^^^^^^
>>there you have to deal with disease, bandidos, poverty, corrupt police,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and substandard medical care.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>
>Interesting reasons.  I would only like to know where you got the
>information that all that happens in all Latin America.  I think you
>should read or find out more before making such generalization!!!!!!
>
>  Jaime Cisneros

OOPS!  I did it again.  I should get an award for being the person
who does the old foot in the mouth the most in this newsgroup.
Certainly other places have the same problems as those I listed
for Latin America.  Sorry about that.

chris