HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.physics,sci.chem,talk.origins,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. Creation : Manfred Eigen
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:47:38 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: aproden@ac.dal.ca (Andrew P. Rodenhiser)

In article <1992Aug27.094248.7169@ac.dal.ca>, aproden@ac (Andrew P. Rodenhiser) writes:
>Anyone interested in some recent research on this should look for
>articles by Dr. Manfred Eigen, Director, Max Planck Institute for
>Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen, Germany, Nobel Laureate 1967.

M Eigen STEPS TOWARD LIFE: A PERSPECTIVE ON EVOLUTION (Oxford 1992)
is the English translation of his 1987 book.

One feature of the book worth mentioning is a certain unusual subtheme:
Thomas Mann displayed remarkable prescience in the twenties regarding
modern day molecular biology, as shown in his diaries and THE MAGIC
MOUNTAIN.

Followups directed to talk.origins only, please.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Subject: Re: Faith vs. Reason
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:59:56 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
> I am not talking about closing ones eyes, I am talking about opening ones
> spiritual eyes on a trial basis - one is then free to close them again if one
> so chooses.  You cannot prove your way to God; knowledge of Him must depend
> on faith - which does mature into certainty if given a chance (and the faith
> is true).  

John,

A few thoughts:

1) If I'm reading that right, you're saying the faith will mature into
   certainty, if the faith in question is "true" and you give it a real
   chance.  If that is what you mean, how do you explain people with
   different faiths, either within Christianity or in other religions,
   who have faith in different things?  Especially those of other faiths
   that don't even believe in Christ.  

2) When one decides to take his "spiritual eyes" out for a test drive
   like that, how does he decide on which road to take?  How did you
   decide on yours?  

3) You say "knowledge of Him must depend on faith".  Faith in what
   things?  Just that there is a God, or faith in the inerrancy of
   the Bible, that it is giving you the "right knowledge"?  

Walter Smith
smithw@cs.itc.hp.com


Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15282 alt.atheism:16235
From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Faith
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:34:40 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <l9nh7fINNo9e@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
>From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
>Subject: Re: Faith
>Date: 26 Aug 92 17:52:47 GMT

>(Jonathan W Newton) writes:

>      I have to agree with the original post.  IMHO, anything
>      that requires man to have faith (i.e. cease to think),
>      has a net result of being harmful.  Mans intellectual
>      evolution has been severely retarded by religion.

>Without "faith" in the unknown and the scarcely believeable,
>it is unlikely "science" would have progressed as far as it
>has.

>Clearly "faith" does not mean "ceasing to think", much
>as you would like to have it that way; perhaps in one sense,
>it means being willing to hold as true for a moment, pending
>further investigation.

>Dano

I would [very roughly] characterize faith as the determination to procede 
with some (usually important or morally significant) activity or project on 
less than fully evidenced knowledge.  This distinguishes faith from 'mere 
belief', which doesn't require either 'determination' or valuation.  I can 
believe that Bill Clinton will win the election, for instance, without 
wanting this to happen (but 'I can't dispute the evidence'...etc); whereas, 
if I "have faith" that Bush will win the election, then I both believe it 
and hope (desire, wish, etc that) he will.  Both faith and belief share the 
epistemic feature of having less than fully evidenced knowledge for what 
one asserts; they differ in that faith includes the valuation of its 
object.  If we don't like what it is we believe is or may be the case, we 
don't speak of having *faith* that it is the case.  

I won't attempt to say just now what relevance this account of faith has for 
many of the problems discussed in this newsgroup, but perhaps it will 
be of some help in future discussions, or even, begin a new thread.  In 
any event, I welcome criticism.  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is heroism.
Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 1943)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cjhs@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: What Questions do folks feel must be answered?
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:56:36 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Randall Desmond (acsormd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu) wrote:
: Folks:
: 
: Post me a list of questions that you feel must be answered in order to
: decide on the validity of any religion.
: 
: Thanks.
: Ismail

I think you have this backwards. There is no list of questions that
must be answered. To decide the validity of a religion or indeed just
about anything else, you look first at the questions that the religion
(or whatever) purports to answer, and then test the validity of
those answers.

Cheers -- Chris Ho-Stuart
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Why I am an atheist (long!)
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 26 Aug 92 07:51:37 GMT

jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com writes:

>> After that, they use their brain backwards.
>> They start with whatever they've been indoctrinated with, and then
>> concoct reasons for believing it.  

>Atheism...Atheism...Atheism...Atheism...

>> And yes, even intelligent
>> scholars can be, and often are, reduced to this.  

>i.e.  Bertrand Russell

  I believe Bertrand Russell was raised as a Christian.  At least, 
that's the impression I get from his "Why I am not a Christian"
essay.  He broke out of his indoctrination.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius)
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard MA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:58:22 GMT

In article <67551@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>In article <ksand-010992182825@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>|Here's the full cite from Matthew about rich men and heaven:
>
> ... This cite is a case in point of 
>a man not selling his goods - and Jesus saying with man it is 
>impossible to enter heaven, but with God all things are possible.
>This, I believe, is effectively the statement in Eph 2:8-9 that
>salvation is a gift of God and is by faith NOT WORKS, so NO MAN can boast.

I essentially agree with what Richard Pitts said here.  However, I have to
point out that in these verses it is NOT 'Heaven' that was mentioned,
but that 'Kingdom of Heavens'.  'Kingdom of Heavens' is simply the
rule of Heavens on this earth.

God, with His heavenly authority, came to this forsaken earth in
the person of Jesus, to once again bring this God-alienated earth
back to the rule of Heavens.  This is what Jesus meant when He
proclaimed the COMING of the 'Kingdom of Heavens' in Matthew.
This is also the essential message of Matthew, and now we can
understand that phrase in the Lord's prayer: " ... Thy Kingdom COME,
thy will be done on the EARTH, as in the Heavens ..."

So, where is the 'Kingdom of Heavens'?  It is on this EARTH.  It is
where God's authority is acknowledged and the Lordship of Jesus is
honored.  It is in the hearts of the Christians.  It is among us
when we assemble ourselves together as the Church.  And it is in
our daily livings when we live in His will.


Regards,
-- 
For Christ and His Kingdom
-- Publius
Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, all mine, mine alone.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,sci.physics
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Polytheism
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:29:58 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-310892203141@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|In article <67310@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
|Pitts) wrote:
|> 
|> In article <ksand-290892182041@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|> |Is this then a back door to rich people?
|> 
|> Kent, it is a back door for everyone.  For as it says, all things
|> are possible with God.  
|
|So it includes breaking with the message of Jesus. Isn't that a little
|bit awkward. Jesus states that rich men don't enter heaven, but for 

NO it states that with man this is impossible, but with God it is not.

|God it's possible to change the ground rules for Jesus. It also implies
|that Jesus is not God. More theological problems.

I don't follow this one.
 
|> The Scripture says that we are saved by grace through faith and not 
|> by works - it is a gift of God - so that NO MAN can boast.  Eph 2:8-9
|
|Jesus added many other qualifications to enter the kingdom of God.

Could you cite some of these?

|And he didn't boast, I guess.

I don't think he did.  In fact he was practically silent before his
accusers at his trial.
 
|> Again, I assume you are saying I twisted words here, maybe you aren't,
|> but if you can cite entrance into the Kingdom of God by selling one's
|> stuff, then do so and we will discuss it.
|
|As Jesus said (sigh, my bible is back home), rich men won't 
|enter the Kingdom of God.

NO it states that with man this is impossible, but with God it is not.


For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts

-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15264 alt.atheism:16217
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Why he is not a Muslim, either
From: dcs@witsend.tnet.com (D. C. Sessions)
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:57:52 GMT
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.04

In <1992Aug24.175015.7114@ac.dal.ca>, hartigan@ac.dal.ca wrote:
} So I am an atheist because I have no choice. You cannot believe in something
} that just don't look true. To the Christians: can you believe in Zeus?
} No? Why not? It don't look true does it? Can you make yourself believe in it?
} No? Even if you wanted to? No.

  And then

In <l9jcc3INN3hm@pollux.usc.edu>, aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)  wrote:
# I am deeply saddened by your letter....  It seems you are not objective
# enough to even mention Islam in your observations...  Why?  
# 
# Hasn't it occured to the disillusioned Christians yet that there is a
# reason for their disillusionment?  Think!  God sent a messenger to one of the
# lowliest groups of people (the desert Arabs of that time), and YET the 
# message is applicable to everyone.  Funny, I'm informing you of a way to
# the Truth through your mind and heart, but most of you turn away in silence,
# wanting to wallow in the unfounded 'emotionality' of Christianity.

  It would appear that you didn't read the original closely.  Mr. Hartigan
  didn't *dispute* Xianity; he just couldn't *accept* it.  Big difference.
  (A perusal of William James' classic "The Will to Believe" seems in
  order here.)

  Given that he was almost certainly raised in a (nominally, at least)
  Xian environment and apparantly finds no fault with it, it is at best
  doubtful that he will do better with Islam.  No offence intended, but
  your missionary zeal might be better directed.

  (Lest you misunderstand, I quite agree that the American/European
  public is woefully ignorant w/r/t Islam, and that education is in
  order.  This just wasn't your best opportunity.)
---
--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                    dcs@witsend.uucp ---
--- And if that doesn't work:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- There never was any correspondence between my views and SCI's ---
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Re: Some questions for Laura. Please read it.
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:25:38 GMT

In article <ksand-200892122116@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik (Hacker)) writes:
>In article <1992Aug16.231031.16025@sdf.lonestar.org>,
>corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll) wrote:
>> According to my understanding as a young spry Jehovah's Witness,
>> before the flood it never had rained on the earth.  That's why the
>> people ridiculed Noah for preaching a global deluge.  Now.  The
>> world was also much flatter at the time, the highest mountains not
>> being the same height as they are today.  That's how all the water
>> could cover the whole earth.
>
>I would like to know if this is really the case -- do JWs believe
>that there was never any rain on Earth before the Flood? This is 
>getting more and more crazy... This issue opens a huge new can
>of worms, all crawling all over the JW logic.
>
>Cheers,
>Kent

According to my understanding of JW doctrine, Yes.

Supposedly Noah had to preach this deluge to mankind many years 
before it happened.  Yet none of the people believed him.  Why?
Because it had never rained upon the earth before.  The idea of
a deluge was silly to them.  

If this has been updated in JW literature, please tell me.


-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus & the Sin of the World
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:40:09 GMT
Organization: Society for the Prevention of National Mudding Associations

rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:

[quote deleted - a copy will appear at the end of this posting anyway]

>Could you give the context in which Lincoln said this - PLEASE.

Sorry, I don't have it.

>This wasn't quoted to supposedly say that Lincoln did not believe in God,
>was it?

I quoted it because I find it interesting.  I suspect Lincoln was most
likely a deist; if so, he would therefore believe in a god, but not
necessarily the Christian one.  I personally suspect he was referring
to people who blindly follow the creed and dogma and not the
principles.

>I believe Lincoln used the Bible often and so quoted from it.  He
>proclaimed national days of fasting and prayer.

The Bible contains a great deal of wisdom and good advice.  I don't
fault Lincoln for using it as a source of inspiration.  That, however,
does not mean he lets it rule his life, any more than I allow my tarot
cards to rule mine.

>I cannot on my on attest to Lincoln being a follower or not of Jesus
>the Christ, but I can say that the 'Christianity is not my religion'
>phrase could be said by many, including myself, for we don't consider
>it a religion, but a relationship to God through Jesus the Christ and
>what he has done for us.  Others would call it a religion.

Religion is a system of beliefs regarding the existence and nature of
god(s) and other supernatural beings, usually coupled with a doctrine
of some sort, and a set of rituals.  Christianity has beliefs about
the existence and nature of the supernatural; it has doctrine; it has
rituals.  Therefore, I purport that Christianity is a religion.

>I have the following quote cited on a poster, which pictures a beautiful
>scene of the sky
>
>  "I can see how a man could look on the earth and say there is no God,
>   but I don't see how he could look to the heavens and say it." 
>   -- Abraham Lincoln - [that may not be the exact wording, but its close.]

This is perfectly consistent with the belief that Lincoln was a deist.
Deists believe in a god-creator.  His statement says nothing about the
Christian god (assuming you have quoted it with reasonable accuracy).
-- 
The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion.  I could never
give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.
	-- Abraham Lincoln
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik (Hacker))
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: god and empiricism
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:47:01 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <sbuckley.714086477@sfu.ca>, sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen
Buckley) wrote:
>   this is where each individual human being approaches the spiritual 
> market place, asks their questions and sees which philosophy answers 
> their questions.  the coherence of the answers offered in jesus and in
> the bible answered all my questions about life while the others i
> studied did not.  everyone has their own questions and i believe jesus
> can answer anyone's questions.  but people are free to believe a wide
> range of things about life that make jesus answer worth little or nothing.

This summarizes quite well my Heidegger influenced view that 
every individual models his world view, and there are *no* right
or wrong world views, just different. However we have tools to 
sort out empirically what makes sense or not concerning global
awareness of our environment, such as science. I could boldly
state that there are *no* such tools concerning religious views.

If you show me people that have changed their life due to Jesus,
I could show you people that have changed their lives due to:
* Buddha
* Mohammed
* money
* sex
* remote controls
* USENET

Cheers,
Kent

---
"Read my lips... No Willie Horton..."
From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why I am an atheist/Christian (orig. poster speaks)
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:25:13 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <sbuckley.714784479@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>eureka! experience on the level of a burning bush.  then i began to laugh.
>sometimes we're just looking for confirmation in ways that god isn't
>offering confirmation.  since that mountain experience, i've found the
>truth of it all, mainly in the healing in my soul from a darkened depressed
>place to a healthy, god-filled place.  after stopping trying to get god
>to prove himself to me, and i could only do this when i became exhausted in
>trying, i just said "o.k., it's true, i'll believe tho i've seen no 
>evidence in my life, show me in YOUR ways."  and then everything changed.
>really, it did.  and i don't think abandoning family, friends
>and possessions will show you jesus.  but you need to have faith based on
>no evidence for the evidence to come into your heart--a contention that
>merits the highest ridicule in this newsgroup, i know, but it's still
>true.

I second that...  Still one of my favorite quotes:

"Thinking if I could see I would believe...
   then someone said believe and you WILL see!"
      -Petra

John M.
From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Invitation to Discussion on: being a Christian
Date: 23 Aug 1992 20:38:02 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Invitation to Discussion on: being a Christian
Summary: 
Expires: 
References:
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Keywords: 
 
In article <1992Aug23.175757.7105@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>An invitation:
 [stuff deleted]
>I am trying to understand how it is that someone can be a Christian. 
>Any out there that would like to discuss this matter with me?
>Let's do it by post for now - so that anyone who wants to can join in.
 
>Feel free to begin as you please.
 
>Sean Hartigan
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca
 
 
I don't understand how anyone can be a Christian either...  I posted an
article on Islam and science just a couple of days ago which no Christian
has responded to, either because it was a terrible article (which I honestly
don't think so), OR they simply can't find any answer...
 
Perhaps you didn't expect this type of response, Mr. Hartigan, but then
again, I would guess that you are not too knowledgeable on Islam.  If you're
looking for guidance, then check out that article (it's within 50 articles
of this one...).  Perhaps if you (and other disillusioned Jews and Christians)
gave an honest look to Islam, you might find a pleasant (and powerful) 
surprise.
 
Justice, science, love, forgiveness, encouragement, forgiveness, guidance,
more forgiveness...  these are just some of the things you'll find in the
Qur'an...  not to mention strength, war against tyranny, mercy to your 
enemies if possible, a description of how man was formed (*gasp* 
scientifically accurate), and on and on...

There is an American Muslim who reverted to Islam back in the late seventies,
and he actually became a scholar by going to the Middle East and studying in 
an Islamic university.  He knows what it's like to be a Christian, and he 
knows what it's like to be Muslim, and here's what he has said:

	"A Christian is drawn towards his religion by his heart...
	A Muslim, however, is drawn by his MIND."

Ahmed Abd-Allah


Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,sci.physics,sci.anthropology
From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Pliestocene extinctions
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<25793@dog.ee.lbl.gov> <1992Aug27.164524.18847@nas.nasa.gov>
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:45:43 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 27 Aug 92 16:45:24 GMT, wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) said:

William> The Pliestocene North American megafauna went extict around
William> 12,000 years ago at the end of the last major glaciation.

Petroglyphs in New Mexico done by natives around 1000 AD distinctly show
mammoths and what appear to be dinosaurs.  Several other sites worldwide
indicate that mammoths and mastodons are only recently extinct, if at all.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;
Integrated Measurement Systems |  he eateth grass as an ox." - Job 40:15
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  





Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc