Newsgroups: bit.listserv.pacs-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:16:46 CDT
From:         Public-Access Computer Systems Forum <LIBPACS@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Caste Question

4 Messages, 136 Lines
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From: JUDITH HOPKINS AT SUNY BUFFALO <ULCJH@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Caste Barriers
>How long will it be before someone questions the legality of requiring an
>MLS for various library jobs that could be performed by someone with some
>other degree, or no degree at all?
>
>Kate Kiernan (without an MLS or CS degree)

   In response to Kate Kiernan's question, someone already took a case to
court to question the legality of requiring an MLS for a specific job.  If
my memory serves me correctly several years ago an applicant for a job
at a Veterinary Science Library in Mississippi (for which the MLS had
been posted as a requirement) sued because she hadn't gotten the job.  She
had had years of relevant experience but no MLS.    The judge held that
the library administration was the best judge of the qualifications
needed and ruled against the plaintiff.  (I can't remember the name of
the plaintiff except that it began with an M and as it is after midnight
it is too late to call the library's reference desk for more details.
Check in American Libraries of 5-6 years ago or have your nearest law
library track it down].

*=======================================================================
Judith Hopkins                            VOICE: (716) 645-2796
Technical Services Research and Analysis Officer
Central Technical Services                FAX:   (716) 645-5955
Lockwood Library Building
State University of New York at Buffalo   BITNET: ulcjh@ubvm (OR, ubvms)
Buffalo, NY  14260-2200              INTERNET: ulcjh@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
*=======================================================================
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From: JUDITH HOPKINS AT SUNY BUFFALO <ULCJH@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Caste Barriers
   A short update on my message last night.  The case I referred to
was that of Glenda Merwine.  The Appeals Court held that the ALA
accredited MLS degree is a legitimate, nondiscriminatory standard
for hiring academic librarians.   Merwine petitioned the Supreme
Court for a writ of certiorari which the Court denied, thus, in
effect, upholding the Appeals Court's decision.   The case was
heard sometime in the mid-eighties.

*=======================================================================
Judith Hopkins                            VOICE: (716) 645-2796
Technical Services Research and Analysis Officer
Central Technical Services                FAX:   (716) 645-5955
Lockwood Library Building
State University of New York at Buffalo   BITNET: ulcjh@ubvm (OR, ubvms)
Buffalo, NY  14260-2200              INTERNET: ulcjh@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
*=======================================================================
*------
From:         kendall <KSIMMONS@UKANVM>
Subject:      Re: Caste Barriers
I realize that this discussion has centered around whether or not a library
programmer should or should not have an MLS.  The issue has been discussed
under the heading of "caste barriers".  While I do happen to believe that at
least some library knowledge is essential for a library programmer (regardless
of whether it was because of on-the-job training or library school or whatever.
..simply enough knowledge to know that library classification systems generally
CANNOT be expected to make "computer sense" so don't try to force the library
into what seems to be "computer" logical) and know at least one programmer who
has an MLS but whom I wouldn't hire because of his/her LIBRARY attitude, I had
no intention of being anything but a "lurker" about this issue until this last
group of messages about the subject.   However, a couple of the last messages
really stuck in my craw.  When that happens, well...

Janet Swan Hill wrote: "It is clear that it is difficult for anyone who is
not a librarian to discern what it is that librarians do and why it takes speci
alized education and training.  But just because it cannot be seen easily, does
not mean that it does not exist."

And Elizabeth Lane wrote: " Sure, there are people without MLS degress who have
acquired many of the skills that a library position requires.  But they do not
have the broader philosophical grounding in the concepts and context of librari
es.  And if we don't start doing a better job of making that clear, the profess
ion is in for a quick slide into oblivion."

To be quite frank, with attitudes like that, no wonder there is a perception
of a "caste system"...not just between librarians and programmers but between
librarians and "support staff".  AND, with attitudes like that, perhaps the
profession SHOULD "slide into oblivion".  Believe me, this is NOT meant to be
a flame, although it sounds awfully like one.  Rather it's likely a reaction to
what was the WORST course I ever HAD to take in library school:  "Professional-
ism in Librarianship".   I would venture to say that there aren't too many
"professions" that require you to take a course in how they are professionals.
Perhaps most of you (I sincerely hope) never had to suffer through something
like that, but when someone comments that it's hard for most folk to see what
librarians do that makes them special, then maybe it's not as much as some
librarians would like to think it is (in the sense of needing a degree): and
when some say that non-MLS folk don't have the "broader philosophical
grounding in the concepts and context of libraries", I have to beg "give me
a break!!!"   We're not talking "hard" here.  An MLS is NOT required.  A bit
of common sense, perhaps, but not a Master's degree.  We're talking about a
job.  Period.  You can call it a career, if you want, but we're talking about
a job.  Do it well.  Don't.  Whatever.  But don't define yourself by your job.
And don't worry about what other people think about your job...if they think
about it at all.  You're going to deal with jerks occasionally.  That's life.
You're not going to make a fortune.  Accept it.  But don't try to justify
a "caste system" in an attempt to validate your "job".

I suppose I should say <flame off> even though I'd never intended this as a
flame.  But, as I said, stuff stuck in my craw...so you got stuck with my
getting it out.

Kendall Simmons
Univ. of Kansas
Home of...THEM
*-----
From: Kate Kiernan - Vermont State Colleges <KATE@VSCNET.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Caste Barriers
Elizabeth Lane writes:

> When lawsuits such as Ms. Kiernan suggests begin to appear, I suppose
> they should be joined by lawsuits requiring that we should not require
> MDs for doctors, or JDs for lawyers, or DVMs for vets.  ...

But that's not the point.  People who run computing systems for hospitals
don't have medical degrees.  People who run computing systems for law
firms don't have law degrees.  Almost every profession has some sort of
automated system that is managed by computer specialists, but it seems
that only libraries demand that their systems be managed by someone with
a professional degree in that field.

If you don't believe me, look at the want ads.  A person with the right
combination of expeience in various aspects of computing can qualify for
just about any computing job advertised - except library automation.

I think that by demanding an MLS to manage a library automation system,
libraries are purposefully setting up barriers against people who are "not
of their kind".  I don't see this happening in any other profession.

Kate Kiernan
Vermont State Colleges
BITNET:  KATE@VSCNET