HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Understanding
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:37:47 GMT
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <MUFFY.92Dec22111050@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>This came up in a conversation I had with a woman the other night.  It
>seemed to both of us that men take statements about "men" a lot more
>personally than women take statements about "women."  

No I don't!  Oh sorry... :-)

>That is (grossly
>generalizing here), if you say "all men are scum," a man is likely to
>respond "why are you saying I'm scum."  If you say "women can't do
>math," a woman is likely to say "what a ridiculous stereotype."  

Unfair.  Saying that a group of people can't do mathematics is a
meaningful claim that can be refuted, whereas saying they're scum is
just a blanket insult, so it's hardly surprising if people are
offended by it.  If I said to a woman "women are scum", I think she'd
have a right to feel personally offended.  On the other hand, if
someone said to me "men can't look after children" (or pick your
favourite stereotyped female activity), I could attempt to refute
the stereotype.

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk
From: un032230@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:03:05 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

> Hush, Nigel.  It's on my list, anyway.  Oh, and re: being oddly named
> (yes, some of us were listening :-), you might be amused that the prime
> reason I'd want to visit T-town is to visit *another* Nigel!  He's a
> fundie.  Do I lose kudos round here for having such a friend?  Would it
> help any if I say I think he once had a crush on me? .... I slept with
> him once too, although not, ah, >like that<.  He jerked off, thinking I
> was asleep (he still doesn't know I wasn't).  An amusing time to think
> back to, now that I've opened the door to my own biness.

Sigh.  I've found a rather sad case recently.  A man, a choir director at 
a local church- gay as gay can be, with a best friend who is in love with him,
and a truck load full of self-hateing religiosity that nearly turns my 
stomach, yet makes me feel pity at the same time.  He's a guy, completely
unable to face facts.  He lies continuously about dating this lady, and that-
all of the ladies invariably disclaim any knowledge of him upon questioning.

His best friend had a heart to heart with him, opened the worm cans, and has 
watched the poor confused rodent-like, Hell Pastor-ized man wither under the
glare of his own realizations.  The scared one now claims that an entire,
hours long coming out conversation never happened- that a brief fling in the 
sack also never happened, and that he's doing just fine belf, thanks.

Its very sad to see what people can, and will do to themselves.  Maybe I have
some failure of vision that I can not see the problem in accepting oneself. 
Sure, the thought of coming out to certain people can leave me with a queasy,
dizzy feeling- but I like me none the less.  Why are there so many people who
hate themselves for such a simple thing as who they want to screw?

This perverted morality generated by self loathing "Good People" Christians is
sickening in its strength, reach, and sheer audacity.

Chris, who's feeling like the world just sucks, ya know?
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: shelly@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Shelly DelVeccio)
Subject: Re: Understanding
Organization: The IBM PC User Group On-line services
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:11:16 GMT

Why, Graham, if I didn't know better, I'd swear you'd been reading Camille
Paglia. ;-)

-sh
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
Subject: Purity
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 01:42:38 GMT

A few days ago, driving roy to the campus (Hi roy!  I want another hug!)
we got into a conversation about bi and how it is resented by 'purists'.
Lesbians who think that a woman who sleeps with a man is sleeping with
the 'enemy'.  At the time I got tiffed at being considered an enemy,
but I have been thinking about this alot the past few days.

At every attempt to label sexuality, there are exceptions.  There are
lesbians who are married to men, there are bi's that are sexual exclusively
with one gender, there are even people who get off without even touching
themselves or another, as well as people who never get off.

What I am wondering is why there is such a strong demand for purity in
our lebels?  And if we will ever be accepting of exceptions when they
initially come up, or do we have to continue to bash out some elbow room
if we want be a little deviant?

Roy was telling me that if hets could use their sexuality to oppress others,
then turn about was fair play, and maybe even necessary.  And I agreed, but
I was wondering the whole time when the fighting would end, when sexuality
wasnt flung around like a brick laden glove at someone's face.

We keep having to redefine our labels..  the words dont mean the same
things they used to.  But does anybody but me wish we would outgrow the
damn things?

....jeff

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Re: See Roy?
Keywords: Here I am!
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:42:50 GMT

kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker) writes:

>In article <6+p2#ln@rpi.edu> safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>>idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>>*The* Points?  the *FurryMUCK* Points?
>>
>>Whoa, I have a rep already?  Yeah, _THAT_ Points... Now what are you going
>>to do about it?  <Evil grin....>

>Say "Hi!", hug ya, look forward to seeing you on FM again sometime (when
>the work's less frantic) and think about adding you to my list of
>people to encounter in the flesh when I visit New York.  Will that
>do for starters?

Erp... acceptable?

>				Kay (elsewhere again)
>-- 
>the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  idx009@uk.ac.cov.cck

-Points (Flustered Dragon)
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Selective Memory?
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:27:53 GMT
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <1992Dec21.200134.16944@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
>
>And do you know what? Somebody just posted here for the first time
>yesterday. and *NOBODY HAS TRIED TO DE-MUFFIN HIM YET*! This is an
>emergency! The honour of soc.bi is at stake! For all I know, people
>might be getting all afraid of causing offence to newcomers. This
>cannot be tolerated!
>
>So, if nobody else is going to do it, I'm going to have to start acting
>out of character ...
>
>[Hitches up skirts invitingly. Attempts a sexy smile -- which comes off
>as a leer. Daubs on some lipstick, inexpertly. Starts to totter around
>on high heels, bandy-legged.]
>
>Muffin? Muffin! Where *are* you? ... Guy, I know you're around here
>somewhere ...

Oy!  Cut that out!  I'm not a muffin, though I think I may be a "biscuit"
in soc.motss parlance.  Kindly learn your netiquette!

I knew I shouldn't post to other people's newsgroups...

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk 
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Summary: Socratics
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:38:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <BzM8Fq.97F@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com
(Alan R. Weiss) writes:

>Sigh.  I am not smug.  I do not patronize - I satorize.  I

In one of Sokrates' favorite Delphic tag lines -- gnothi seauton.
You are a LONG way from being able to "satorize."
-- 
Michael L. Siemon	"We honour founders of these starving cities
mls@panix.com		 Whose honour is the image of our sorrow ...
			 They built by rivers and at night the water
			 Running past the windows comforted their sorrow."
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17371 soc.motss:54045
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Advertising
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:01:01 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) suggests making our presence
known by deliberately crossposting a cheery note like
 >Information; For the readers of group <X>, the regulars of soc.motss
 >(a lesbian, gay, and bisexual social forum) and soc.bi (a bisexual
 >social and political forum) wish everyone across the net a Happy New
 >Year.

 >Post this to groups like comp.lang.c, comp.unix.wizards,
 >comp.unix.questions, comp.music, comp.unix.programmer,
 >comp.unix.internals, comp.unix.misc, comp.windows.x, gomcp.graphics,
 >comp.lang.c++, sci.med, sci.electronics, one of the clari.* discussion
 >groups, and so on.

And set the followups to /dev/null.  (Seriously.)

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:34:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.043019.5601@macc.wisc.edu> 
 anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>In article <BzMwIs.AJ3@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
>dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>
>>Reply to the *whole* *content* of the post or
>>none of it.  Which is why I've ignored every response I've seen so
>>far.
>
>I spent quite a little effort, responded to your entire
>thrust and indulged in no invective.  What about that?
>
>>You all strike me as a pretty hateful and reactive bunch,
>>who have no quarter for anyone outside of your political
>>sphere.
>
>This in no way characterizes my response to you.  What about
>that?

I would like to suggest that Brad's posting makes considerably
more sense (to me at least) in the context of some related threads
that have been going on in soc.bi.

(I realize the soc.motss regulars may be indifferent to this
but it does provide some rational context.)

An examination of the largely ignored later parts of his post
suggests to me that Brad is not defending male cluelessness with
respect to feminism (as the tone of some follow-ups seems to
imply), but rather saying in effect: "Clueless exists" and
a rational political program has to deal with it. (Using his
own past as an example.)

We in soc.bi have not yet acchived the remarkable level of
elloquence and grace common to soc.motss discourse, but with
your help and consideration we may yet attain it.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk (Ian Watters)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant abou
Reply-To: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:49:00 +0000

Owen quoting:
>> Well then, Ms. Manners fails to understand how the threat of being
>> beaten to a pulp can persuade someone not to call someone a 'faggot'
>> anymore.  It may not change their minds, but it will probably change
>> their behavior.

>I understand quite well the concept here.
>I also understand that this *solution* is temporal.

Ditto.  Ditto to a lot more in the post too, except that I don't remember
having odd views about "them queers".  My personal hero was a teacher at
school.  (Alas, he was one of the early ones killed by AIDS here, RIP.)
---
iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk  |  Hon Secretary of the London Bisexual Group
                              |  c/o BM BI, London, Great Britain  WC1N 3XX
<< Never mind the LBG, *I* disagree with everything here, including this >>

>>>MATRIX version  1.21e
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 01:02:48 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Purity

In article <1993Jan1.014238.17022@netcom.com>, boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser)
says:
>
>A few days ago, driving roy to the campus (Hi roy!  I want another hug!)
>we got into a conversation about bi and how it is resented by 'purists'.
>Lesbians who think that a woman who sleeps with a man is sleeping with
>the 'enemy'.  At the time I got tiffed at being considered an enemy,
>but I have been thinking about this alot the past few days.
>
>At every attempt to label sexuality, there are exceptions.  There are
>lesbians who are married to men, there are bi's that are sexual exclusively
>with one gender, there are even people who get off without even touching
>themselves or another, as well as people who never get off.
>
>What I am wondering is why there is such a strong demand for purity in
>our lebels?  And if we will ever be accepting of exceptions when they
>initially come up, or do we have to continue to bash out some elbow room
>if we want be a little deviant?
>
[the rest of Jeff's post sent elsewhere]

Words are the hands of the mind.

To expand upon that a little, if you don't have a word for it, things
can be hard to think about.  Or, worse, if the conotations that a word
you are given don't fit you.  I certainly don't feel suffused with the
standard social consensus spirit of manliness, for instance, even if
I am one. (Once, during an intimate moment, someone told me I was 'such
a man'.  It was meant as a compliment; I still can't hear it except as
very sarcastic, at best, because I know damn well I'm not.)

Sexuality (which is very personal) is presently very tied up with
issues of social conformity and group identity axioms.  If labels
can be created that refer to sexual preferences but *don't*
connect to those axioms, the problem in large measure goes away.
(Theoretically; so far as I know, this has never happened.)

Graydon
From: Wilma.Keppel@icarus.omahug.org (Wilma Keppel)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Do you read me?
Date: 28 Dec 92 13:21:56 CST
Reply-To: wilma.keppel@icarus.omahug.org
Organization: Icarus, Iowa City
Followup-To: soc.bi

A *very short* while back I posted the following:
 
> I get SOC_BI gated through DRBBS into Fidonet.  There are some
> fascinating threads, but before I go to the trouble of composing posts > I'd
like to make sure that I can be "heard" back through the Gateway.  > If you are
not in Nebraska or Iowa and you see this, please let me know > I'm getting
through.  Thanks!
 
I have been deluged with replies from as far away as Scotland.  Thank you all
who responded!!  :-)  :-)
From: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Het males & bi-fems
Date: 3 Jan 93 16:41:41
Organization: Department Of Computing, Imperial College, London.
NNTP-Posting-Host: motmot.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: 's message of Tuesday, 29 Dec 1992 17:46:55 CST

In article <92364.174655U23700@uicvm.uic.edu> <U23700@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> also, apparently het women do fantasize about watching 2 men get it
> on, although they didn't always. 

Don't know about the `didn't always', since I haven't been around long
enough, but certainly I've had a number of women (both het and bi)
tell me that this numbers among their fantasies. A bi-male
acquaintance of mine once had a relationship with a woman for whom
this fantasy was a particular turn-on; she used to get him to buy gay
erotic novels and read them to her while she masturbated.

As to how common this is, I can't say, although I think it's more so
than generally realised.

> my friend was very interested to find in the new nancy friday book
> 'women on top' that watching 2 men and perhaps joining them is a new
> idea in women's fantasies, not present in ms. friday's previous
> collections and analysis of women's sexual fantasies, 'my secret
> garden' and 'forbidden flowers' (both from the middle/late 1970s).
> her thesis in this latest book is that the women's movement, sexual
> revolution, etc., have spawned changes in the types of fantasies
> women now allow themselves to have. my friend, who thought she must
> be rather odd when not finding her m-f-m fantasies in the first 2
> books, was exultant to find that other women now have these kinds of
> fantasies, and that she was not the only 'weird' het female who had
> these fantasies.

I just hope that het women do not begin to have a clueless idea of
male bisexuality similar to the 'hot bi babe' image of female
bisexuality held by certain men ...

-Morven/Matt, back from 2-and-a-bit weeks at home, away from computers
              and all that ...

--
| Matthew J. Brown  | Dept. of Computing | If God intended for us to go to   |
| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  | Imperial College,  | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| mjb02@cc.ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate   | double-sided photocopiers.        |
| Morven on Lambda  | LONDON SW7 2AZ     |          -IC RagMag 1991/92       |
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Understanding
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:29:17 GMT

In article <BzqCt8.1tzt@austin.ibm.com> alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
:Muffy, this started out as a thread on gender-neutral language.
:I have been trying to keep in on this tact for billions of clock ticks.

"Get a good start and sail on the lifted tack..."

G
(Oh shit - wrong newsgroup.  Forget it!)
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17104 soc.motss:53339
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:18:05 GMT
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ

In article <1992Dec21.214005.1605@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>
>Why is it any less rude to ignore her wishes by calling her "Ms.
>Manners", than it would be to (for instance) refer to Melinda
>Shore as "Miss Shore"?

That makes the rather large leap that I had any idea how miss manners
wished to be addressed.

Ry Schwark
ry@usl.com
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17373 soc.motss:54078
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: My 5-year HS Reunion... the results!
Date: 30 Dec 92 04:59:37 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1992Dec30.022504.18017@oracle.us.oracle.com> dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly) writes:
>Amazing but true, isn't it?  Many times, people are relying on 
>clues from us as to how to react.  If you introduce the topic by saying,
>for example, "I have something important to tell you," and then
>whisk the person off to a corner, your announcement sounds like 
>you're confiding a terrible skeleton in your closet.  I get a big
>kick out of the various casual ways I've managed to clue people in.

My own favorite coming out story:

A close friend reported to me that a female friend of mine made a
comment that "Scott must either be gay or really fucked up."  Since
I worked with female friend's husband (also a good friend) I decide
to take the husband out for beers after work that day.  (These are
people I knew before I was out in any way - always the hardest to tell.)

After a bit of superficial small talk I cut to the chase.  I told him 
of the comment his wife made and said, "I apologize if I have confused
anybody and I want you to rest assured that I'm not fucked up".  He
put on a big grin and let me know that everything was totally cool.
We poured some more beers and had some good laughs.  It turned out
he was feeling as much relief as I was.  Part of this was because
I suddenly made sense to him and appeared to be a whole person who
was reasonably happy (which he was concerned about).  He also
confessed that he grew up as homophobic as the next guy (and had
been in the military) but had simply outgrown it over the years.  I 
guess I was the proof he needed that he had developed a more mature 
relationship with the world around him and that our friendship was one of
the rewards for it.  It turns out the wife was also relieved to find out
there was nothing wrong with me.  Cool people.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: kay@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kay Dekker)
Subject: Re: See Roy?
Keywords: Here I am!
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:46:28 GMT

In article <6+p2#ln@rpi.edu> safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>*The* Points?  the *FurryMUCK* Points?
>
>Whoa, I have a rep already?  Yeah, _THAT_ Points... Now what are you going
>to do about it?  <Evil grin....>

Say "Hi!", hug ya, look forward to seeing you on FM again sometime (when
the work's less frantic) and think about adding you to my list of
people to encounter in the flesh when I visit New York.  Will that
do for starters?

				Kay (elsewhere again)
-- 
the Crisco Kid: nasty pinko faggot agnostic pervert punk.  idx009@uk.ac.cov.cck
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Wimp factor five (was: sexual consent)
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:17:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1h3ussINNbrb@agate.berkeley.edu>
rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

>I've found that reading and participating in soc.bi helps :) 
>[...]
>Would anyone say I was hypocritical if I described myself as 'sissy'?

Hey, that's a good idea! -- I shall henceforth try to be a sissy,
instead of a wimp!

(I mean it! I'm not even joking, much less being sarcastic.)
--
Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, |  [Profound thought for 1993]
Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End |     "Philishave is about
Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 |      personal choice" 
E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk |             -- TV advert
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss