HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Firearms in Texas; an update on responses received
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:23:39 GMT
Organization: Rice University

In article <5630@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> gswst@gl.pitt.edu (Gary S. Wachs) writes:
- It is clear that there is no legal way for a civilian living in Texas to
- carry a handgun for self-defense.  So much for the 2nd ammendment. My God,
- what led this this?

	The War of Northern Aggression and $k#9A
 Governors. 

	If you move to Texas, you may wish to join the Texas State Rifle 
   Association.  They/we are presently trying to get a civilian carry 
   permit system as part of the new state Penal Code, the legislature 
   having repealed the old one last year.  TSRA also prints a nice little 
   pamphlet titled "Know Your Texas Firearms Laws" that has a reprint of 
   relevant statute as well as a Q&A section. 

- The issue that concerns me at this point is what happens in actual practice.
- You see, I get the impression that lots of Texans (perhaps a few percent)
- carry concealed anyway.    If you don't get caught and never need to draw,
- what the authorities don't know won't hurt them.  If you do get caught
                           [ ... ]    
- case you get to sit in jail for a while). Finally, you can argue 
- your case before the judge.  Is this is fair hypothesis?  Is the
- firearm confiscated?  Are we talking slap on the wrist here?

- Or, more importantly, what are the possibilities if you are put into a
	It's a Class A misdemeanor, except under certain circumstances 
   (in a place that sells alcoholic beverages, on school grounds, at 
   a polling place during elections, in government court or at a race
   track) where it is a felony of the third degree.  

	A lot depends on the DA, the judge and the arresting officer. 

- textbook life-threatening situation and, in the process of shooting-to-stop
- from being shot or beaten or dismembered, you kill the guy/gal.  Anyone
- who has stories to tell from actual case files, what precedents were
- applied?

	Doug Briggs wrote a nice little book on this subject.  It 
   is titled "A Matter of Personal Protection Incorporating The 
   Weapons & Self-Defense Laws of Texas" and in addition to being 
   informative, it is a good read, with anecdotes/examples showing 
   how the courts have interpreted the statutes in the past.  The 
   second edition is out and I would recommend it to anyone in TX 
   who is not quite sure where they stand legally.  

-- 
Jordan M Kossack  | You're so vain, you probably think this .sig is about you.  
 kossack@qvi.com  | You're so vain, I bet you think this .sig is about you. 
 +1 713 240 2073  | Don't you?  Don't you?  Don't you?
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What are some famous actor's guns
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:30 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <24656@oasys.dt.navy.mil> rollhaus@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Charles Rollhauser) writes:
#In rec.guns, jlw@mtuxo.att.com (Joseph L Wood, Iii) writes:
##In article <9209042315.AA01955@cs.utexas.edu> MARTYZ@IDUI1.CSRV.UIDAHO.EDU (Mar
##ty Zimmerman) writes:
##I have enjoyed reading Donald Hamilton for many years.  I have most
##of the Matt Helm stuff  ...
#
#    You're in luck! I just picked up "The Threateners" in my local bookstore.
#It's dated SEPTEMBER 1992. Not as good as some others, but still worthwhile.
# ...

  I'm glad that Chuck pointed this out.  I went out and found a copy 
and just finished it.  The book starts out with a small bore metallic
silhouette match, there is a bit of discussion of the rules, and then
this event plays a small part in the plot.  I have to agree that this 
book is not one of the better ones, but if you like the others you 
will probably want to read this.  Also, in the pages just inside the 
front cover there is list of (I think) all of the Matt Helm novels, 
in order of publication, amounting to 26 books.  (I intend to check to
make sure that I've read them all.)

  If I found the right listing in our library catalog, Donald Hamilton
was born in 1916.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:13 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <23083@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa) writes:
#
#If you reloaded the ammo then it will be questioned as to how hot
#you loaded it, what bullet you used, etc. There is more to
#question you on. If you bought it from the store there is little
#to say except for what your selection was, but from the store
#you are using commonly available ammo which many people use.

While questions have arisen as to why a person would choose "deadly"
hollowpoint ammo rather than "humane" full metal jacket ammo in
police shooting cases, the answer given there as in the case of
handloads is that if deadly force is justified, the exact method
of application is not an issue. In domestic defense situations,
it's expected that a person will use whatever weapon is at hand.
If that happens to be a .454 Casull loaded with a compressed
triplex charge and hollowpointed bullets because that's the normal
hunting load for that gun, then that's the *proper* load to be
using to respond to a threat to life situation. If it's argued
that a person should stop and reload with a more "humane" load
before exerting deadly force, then the need for deadly force
at all comes into question since there was obviously *time*
for retreat. If it's argued that the weapon should have *already*
been loaded with a "humane" load, then the question becomes one
of why the person had been *prepared* to shoot another person rather
than his normal target.

These hypotheticals can be twisted either way. I'd be most concerned
if it could be shown that you were using a load *other* than your
normal load in the incident. If you normally practice with handloads,
there damn well better be handloads in the gun when you have a deadly
force situation or there could be questions of *premeditation*.

Gary
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ring as hand gun safety?
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:41:21 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Sep14.153254.12332@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
##From article <1992Sep13.171520.19787@cube.handheld.com>, by jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras):
## I just heard from a friend that there exists a handgun that requires the  
## operator to wear a ring in order to fire it.  Sounds like an advantage in a  
## situation where the gun might get taken from you.  Also where there are kids in  
## the house.
##
#
#It isn't a particular handgun.  It is a modification to revolvers
#that makes it necessary to wear a magnetic ring to be able to
#fire the gun. 



	I tried one of these conversions when I was at Chapman
	in the spring, the gist of my experience is that it is
	an unreliable syste: it will stick in the disconnected
	(can't fire) position, as well as in the 'fire' position.
	Hand placement is critical to insure that it works at all.

	I would not recommend it.

*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Help Cleaning Brass.
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:24:36 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <9209141612.AA06534@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>, weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
|> 
|> -----
|> 
|> I am fairly new to handloading, and I need some information on brass cleaning.
|> I plan on buying a vibratory case cleaner, big enough to hold around 500
|> rounds of handgun brass (9mm and .45 ACP).
|> 
|> Which cleaners do you like or dislike?  Which companys are good or bad
|> to deal with?

I have the Dillon monster vibratory cleaner, also the smaller RCBS
rotating tumbler.  The vibratory cleaner wins on all counts over the
rotating drum type.

The only drawback to the Dillon monster vibrator is to dump out the
media+cleaned brass you have to lift up the whole unit because the
bowl is not detachable.  No big deal; I guess the whole thing weighs
20 pounds full of media and cases.

I also have the Dillon media separator system, which is a rotating
cage in a large bin.  Several turns of the crank and all the cases
in the cage are clean and all the media is in the bin.  The only
problem with it is there is a fair amount of dust kicked up by the
actions of (1) pouring the media+cases into the separater, (2) turning
the crank on the separator, and (3) pouring the media back into the
vibratory cleaner.  You probably don't want to breathe this stuff.

One note of caution on any vibratory cleaner: be careful on what
cases you mix in there.  If there is any way a case of one type can
get wedged inside a case of a different type, it will.  You may need
to resort to pliers to pull them apart.  Particular no-no's are
9mm with 10mm or .40S&W, .38 spl or .357 mag with .45, 10mm or .40 S&W.
I'm sure you can find others.  In general you can mix any combination
of bottle-necked rifle cartridges without worry, but the straight-walled
pistol cartridges need to be watched.

Regarding media: I just use corn cob.  I'm never in such a hurry that
I can't afford to let it run for another hour or two.  There are also
some liquid cleaners which you pre-soak your cases in first.  I've
never used them.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu

[MODERATOR:  I've got the same system, and really like it too. I bought
the separator quite a while after the tumbler, and the difference in time
I spent fooling around with brass was remarkable.  I works just as easily
as Mike Dillon (and Alan above) say!]
From: STX@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Win Model 88 questions.
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:07 GMT

I have on old winchester rifle that I came across in my Mom's basement.
Its a Winchester Model 88 in .308 caliber.  Its in very good condition and was
obviosly well taken care of.  Does anyone have any information on this gun? Any
estimation of what it is worth?

Thanks in advance
Kevin
kevin@msus1.msus.edu

(E-mail is preferred, I may post a summary to the net if it is warranted)
From: saksa@col.hp.com (Tom Saksa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Thanks: Youth Shooter Questions
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:15:38 GMT

In a recent post I asked for advice in teaching my daughter target
shooting.  I received quite a few responses both here and by
email.  Here is a summary of those responses that were not
posted.

   1. Is 9 a good age, or should I try to hold off? 
   
   Most responders saw no problem with this age and many had
   either learned at an earlier age, or taught someone of an
   earlier age.  A few responders were a bit worried about this
   age, but still stated that it was more of an individual
   judgment.  One person mentioned that I should check into
   local laws because some areas have special regulations
   regarding minors and firearms.

   2. What should I use to teach fire arm safety? 
   
   Most saw no problem using either an air rifle or 22 bolt
   action rifle.  Semi auto's, and any type of pistol were
   pointed out as bad choices.  However, a few responders said
   they felt that the semi auto 22 would work OK if it was singly
   loaded, at least at first.

   3. Where do I find shooting glasses in a size that works well
   for kids. i
   
   I got lots of ideas on this, but very few panned out.  I
   checked into the eyeglass stores to have some made, but frames
   and non-prescription safety lenses  came to $140.  And then,
   they would not really be shooting glasses.  The NRA and Olympic
   training center also did not have much advice.  I finally found
   a shop that had what I wanted, real shooting glasses in a child
   size for ~$23.00.  For anyone in a similar situation the
   company name is Protective Optics, and their number is
   510-887-2401.

   4. Should I not do any training at all, and get her into a
   club, class, or other program?

   Almost everyone that replied said that I would miss out on a
   great experience if I did not do at least some of the training
   myself.  The provision being that I make sure that I get proper
   training.  I have just recently taken the hunters safety course,
   and will be getting further training, so I do not see any
   problems.  We have already started target shooting with the air
   rifle, and I found a range that rents a small 22 bolt action.  

   Thanks for all the advise.
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: High Standard 10A Shotgun
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:08:51 GMT

#Can anyone tell me anything about the High Standard M10a
#(orB) shotgun?  This beast is a bullpup semi-automatic shotgun with
#a rotating yoke that can be either braced on the shoulder or along
#the forearm.  There is also a flashlight mount on the top of the
#weapon.  I think that the M10 has rifle-style sights.  Oh, it has a
#five round tubular magazine and is 12 gauge.
#
#Who makes this gun?  I don't recognize the name High
#Standard.  Has anyone ever seen one of these for sale?  Better yet,
#has anyone ever *shot* one?  I'm not seriously thinking of buying
#one (yet), but it is the d*mnedest looking thing...

High Standard was a gun company that went out of business in the
70's (or was it early '80s).  They were perhaps better known for
their line of .22 semi-auto pistols, which many believe were
excellent target pistols.

I was told the bullpup Model 10A (or B) shotgun was introduced
in the middle 60s.  I have no idea how long they were produced.

A dealer near me had one for sale a year or so ago.  They don't
come up for sale often, and when they do, you're lucky to find
it for under $500.

Rob
C08926RC@WUVMD
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re^2: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:50:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Well, I was out hunting once, and some stupid hunter tracking a dove 
managed to sweep us, and fired the shot.  Luckily, we weren't straight-on;
the shot went up at some trajectory, and rained down on us.  Didn't hurt at
all, just kinda annoying.  Wow!  I can say I've survived a blast from a 
12-gauge!  :-)

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com

[MODERATOR:  I don't think I'll ask about how well the shooter survived
the ensuing return fire....]
From: jlkim@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Justin Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: High Standard 10A shotgun
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:58:04 GMT


	Can anyone tell me anything about the High Standard M10a
(orB) shotgun?  This beast is a bullpup semi-automatic shotgun with
a rotating yoke that can be either braced on the shoulder or along
the forearm.  There is also a flashlight mount on the top of the
weapon.  I think that the M10 has rifle-style sights.  Oh, it has a
five round tubular magazine and is 12 gauge.

	Who makes this gun?  I don't recognize the name High
Standard.  Has anyone ever seen one of these for sale?  Better yet,
has anyone ever *shot* one?  I'm not seriously thinking of buying
one (yet), but it is the d*mnedest looking thing...

Thanks,
Justin
-- 
------->Justin Kim
---------->jlkim@ucsd.edu
------------->Graduate School of International Relations/
---------------->Pacific Studies-University of California, San Diego
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Soviet SKS...
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:09 GMT


<Stuff about slam-fires omitted>

#Get a real soviet SKS, not the chinese SKS.

Hmmm...good luck in finding a genuine Soviet SKS - there's not many
around.  And when you do find one, expect to pay a healthy premium -
not the $100 or so the Chinese ones go for - as they didn't make vast
numbers of them.

All SKSes currently being imported, even the ones from the
Middle East that Century has, are of Chinese manufacture.  In all
my years of shooting and gun shows and whatnot, I have not once
come across a genuine Soviet SKS.

With that said, I should add that I haven't had any problems with
the SKSes that I've owned, nor has anyone else I know.


Rob
C08926RC@WUVMD
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Baby Eagle
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:21 GMT


# I was in a sporting goods store last night and saw a new gun- the Baby
# Eagle. Does anyone have any info on this gun? Have you seen any reviews
# of it? Any info appreciated!

The Baby Eagle was formerly known as the Jericho 941.  When it was sold
as the Jericho, it was supplied with both 9mm and .41AE parts.  I don't
know if this is still true.


Rob
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Baretta 92
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:30 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <9209100009.AA16501@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil> kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Kevin P. Knox) writes:
:In article <1992Sep8.175602.14971@cbnews.cb.att.com> mld@cblpn.att.com (Michael L Denburg) writes:
:#In article <EDP.92Aug31174519@roo.sneaks.kodak.com> edp@sneaks.kodak.com (Ed Pendzik -- Sun Consulting) writes:
:##
:##
:##Fact #2: yes, there is no recall for guns without this safety.
:##If there was a real problem with slides hitting shooters in the face,
:##don't you think that beretta, the oldest company in the world
:##(oldest company, not just oldest gun company), would recall and
:##update all the 92's just to avoid litagation?
:
:About  a year and one half ago,  I was working in the "cop shop"  (Security
:Police  Headquarters  building) here at Wright Patterson AFB and this  same
:subject came up.   There were about five Air Force SPs who were in the room
:at  the  time and they all agreed that they would rather have  a  different
:sidearm  other than the 92.   Three of them knew other AF cops who had been
:injured  by the slides coming off and the other two knew somebody who  told
:them second hand.   They told me that... "There are SPs who shoot and those
:who don't.   Those who don't shoot are ignorant of the problem,  but  those
:who do shoot are afraid of the damned thing!"
:
:I thought I would pass this on as it is straight from the horse's mouth (so 
:to speak - i.e. - military cops).
:

When the investigation began on the Beretta 92 failures, there were
many reports of slide breakage and other types of failures.  The
investigative board came to the conclusion that most of these reports
were word-of-mouth, and after trying to run them all down, found only
5 real failures.  They were all slide breakages or severe cracks and
all happened after having fired extensively with the black tipped
carbine 9mm loads.  The rest all just happened to "friend" or
"friend-of-a-friend" and the trails always petered out.  Something like
the classical urban legend.  The board did much more than that,
including extensive metalurical analysis of the broken slides and the
metal batches that they came from.

Beretta has built more than one million of the 92 series pistols in a
number of plants in Italy, Brazil, the US, and other countries and has
not experienced any slide breakage failures before this.  

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: pressure stamp
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:51:03 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Sep9.215727.25015@cbnewse.cb.att.com> sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Steven R Faber) writes:
#I saw a black powder rifle that had the barrel stamped
#700 Kp/cm^2
#Can anyone translate this to psi or offer some idea
#of what unit Kp is?

There is something very odd here: "kp" would probably mean a kilopacsal,
or 1000 Newtons/m^2. What exactly a "Kp/cm^2" means, I'm not sure. It
_might_ mean 700,000 Newtons/cm^2 (or 70,000 kilopascals = 700 atm. =

                                                  Frank Crary
                                                  CU Boulder
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: : Re: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:19 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

Re: ammo in fires. I'll admit to tossing a handful of .22LR into the
wood stove at school to generate a little excitment. It generated
so little excitment the teacher didn't even notice. Then I tried
some 12 gauge BP shotshells. That shook some soot from the flue!

Gary
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: States gun laws
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:17 GMT
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club

In article <12242@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#
#In article <HOLLEN.92Sep9084235@peg.megatek.UUCP>, megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck) writes:
## I am thinking of moving to another state.  Could any of you please
## comment on gun laws in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado,

I just moved to Boise and I can't even begin to describe how
pro-gun this place is.  The only drawback is that Boise's been
rated pretty high as "Good places to live" in a variety of
places lately, and there's a huge influx of people going on.
This could dampen job prospects in the Boise area and housing
costs have gone up quite a bit lately (especially for renters).

#pick whether to live in Oregon or Washington, or Idaho or Washington,
#it makes sense to pick the non-WA state, and get a permit from
#both.

Yah, my sister-in-law lives in Seattle, so I'll almost certainly
get a CCW from WA.

#Idaho and New Mexico have both recently revised their RKBA provisions
#to make it clear that they damn well mean it.

And believe me, they MEAN IT around here.  It isn't everywhere
in the country where you see T.V. ads for gun stores showing
Remington 700s, Winchester lever-actions, and an SKS (seriously!).

Drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***