HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling (was Re: Bikes
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:06:20 GMT

David Casseres (casseres@apple.com) writes:

> Marc San Soucie wrote:

> > ...a lot of drivers simply have no experience with 
> > cyclists on the road, and react with anger because they really don't know 
> > what the heck to do. If the cyclists all behave as much as possible like 
> > cars (as they're requested to do by the law), car drivers are likely to 
> > feel less uncomfortable in their presence. Since most of them really can't 
> > predict what a single cyclist is going to do, there's a problem.
> > 
> > This is one case where uniformity (up to a point) works to our advantage.

> I agree.  But behaving like cars does *not* mean obeying all the rules. 
> Cars don't obey all the rules.  Stop signs are the best example; people are
> always saying "bikes always run stop signs," but the truth is that cars and
> bikes run stop signs with about the same frequency and at about the same
> speeds.

No, I can't agree with this. When I ride in downtown Portland, I frequently
see cyclists running stops and reds without so much as slowing down. Few
cars actually run red lights, and the stops are just "rolled", at reduced
speed. When a car actually runs a stop or red light at full bore, people
notice.


> ... it irritates me to hear adult cyclists
> scolding one another and insisting that our safety depends on pleasing
> motorists.  It just plain doesn't, though it could be helped a lot by
> *educating* motorists.

Sure. Pleasing motorists is not my goal. Making them more tolerant is, and
education is the answer. But one way, and in my opinion an effective way,
of educating motorists is for a substantial number of us to present them
with frequent and hopefully impressive examples of proper cycling behavior, 
so that they can't rely on the old saw that "cyclists never obey the law".

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:443 rec.bicycles.rides:218 dc.driving:44 dc.general:2467
From: pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,dc.driving,dc.general
Subject: Re: Commute, a beautiful morning...
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:25:06 GMT
Organization: Computing & Comm. Services, University of Ottawa

In article <1992Oct2.115706.24258@linus.mitre.org> woycke@smiley.mitre.org (Daniel Woycke) writes:
>I just had to let folks know about my commute this morning. I biked in
>to work 15 miles and saw 3 deer, a fox, and a nice (not great)
>sunrise. The only animals I tend to see while driving are dead. Isn't
>this a wonderful reason to bike commute.
>

Yes, I love the animals I see on my comute.  One day, I came
quite close to a skunk.  That was fun.  How many netters have
run into skunks while cycling?

-- 
Pete Hickey               | Pete@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "If a vegetarian eats
Communication Services    |   or (if desperate)     |  vegatables, then what
University of Ottawa      | petehic@uottawa.bitnet  |  does a humanitarian
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 564-7646         |  eat?"
From: Dave Snyder <davesnyder@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:38 PDT
Subject: Re: Dangerous situation - advice wanted
Nf-ID: #R:Aek8pTa00jWR0mB9RL@andrew.cmu.ed:1351237842:cdp:1702500006:000:1903
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!davesnyder    Sep 29 17:38:00 1992


>What I do at almost every intersection where there are cars:

>               |      !      |
>               |      !      |
>               |      !      |
>               |  TTT !      |
>----------------  TTT          ------------------
>                  TTT->     ^
>               R              R
>===============e    Green     e==================
>               d              d
>
>---------------                ------------------
>               |      !  ^   |
>               |      !  |   |
>               |      !  \   |
		|      !   \  |
		|      !    \ |
>               |      !    | |
		|      !    B |
		|      !    B |
		|      !    B |

> There are so many good reasons to move over to the left when you
approach an interesection on a bicycle.

1. The 'TTT' car may not see you even if there isn't a car to the
bicyclist's left, blocking the 'TTT' driver's view.  A friend of
mine got seriously hit when the 'TTT' driver turned left in front
of her even though there was *no other traffic*.  The car driver
just didn't see the bicyclist because she was riding too far to
the right where she blended in with the clutter of the parked
cars.

2. If there *is* a car to my left, I'll either speed up or let it
pass in order to move over to the center of the lane
	a) to avoid getting turned right into if I'm not sure that
	car saw me.
	b) to make sure I'm far enough to the left to clear any
	open
	car doors I may encounter once I'm through the
	intersection.

I always figure I'm safer riding to the left, and I'm sorry if it
irritates car drivers who I might slow down, but my safety is
important to me. I would rather err too far to the left and
irritate a car driver (and get into a few arguments, I'm sorry to
add) than err too far to the right and get creamed by a
left-turning car or an open car door or a huge pothole that I had
no maneuvering room to avoid.

dave snyder

Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:476 rec.motorcycles:35050 ba.motorcycles:490
From: v008pcqu@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick E Tuxbury)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1:30p)
Date: 7 Oct 92 03:37:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct6.233403.13059@tcsi.com>, markk@tcs.com (Mark Kromer) writes...
>In article <1992Oct6.033513.19829@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>, bushnell@iscnvx (William D. Bushnell) writes:
> 
>[bunch of stuff deleted but summarized for brevity]
> 
>The bicyclist was riding in the middle of the road when a group of
>motorcyclists came up from behind.
> 
>The motorcyclists swerved to avoid the bicyclist.  The bicycle and one
>of the motorcycles collided for some reason.  The bicyclist may have
>swerved, or lost control and collided with the motorcycle.  We just
>don't know.  The bicyclist hurt his ankle and the motorcyclists helped
>him to the hospital.  Unfortunatly the author didn't have a clear view
>of the incident.
> 
>This could have been a sign to those following to beware.  This signal
>is used by racers to tell followers that something is wrong and to
>exercise caution.  What you don't realise is that if a motorcyclist
>hits a large object even just with his foot the motorcyclist stands a
>good chance of crashing and be injured as well.  Think of what it
>would feel like to strike something at 60 miles an hour with your
>foot!  There are those in rec.moto who have horror stories about
>kicking traffic cones.
> 
>From what you say in your description you can't make these assumptions.
> 
>The bicyclist did something unexpected.
> 
>The bad image is sponsored by the prejudices of non motorcyclists.
> 
>He should ride more carefully.
> 
>A reasoned response by motorcyclist and bicyclist:
> 

     Hmmmm... were you at accident scene because it sounds like you saw the
whole thing better than the original poster.  It sounds to me like he saw
the whole thing pretty well whereas you didn't see a thing.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: Quinn <quinn@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Let's be serious out there
X-Xxdate: Fri, 2 Oct 92 01: 59:33 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d11
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:02:02 GMT

In article <2926955908.7.p00004@psilink.com> Michael Smith,
p00004@psilink.com writes:
>Maybe I'll start stealing cars. Trouble is, I don't *want* a car, much 
>less dozens of 'em.

One option is to steal the cars and then write them off.

Quinn "The Eskimo!"      <quinn@cs.uwa.edu.au>     "Support HAVOC!"
Department of Computer Science, The University of Western Australia
  -- Bordering on the lunatic fringe.
From: tims@cci632.cci.com (Tim Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: HOV abolished!
Date: 5 Oct 92 01:42:56 GMT
Reply-To: tims@cci.com (Tim Sullivan)
Organization: Northern Telecom NAS, Rochester, NY


Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the HOV lane?  Thanks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan
tims@cci.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist))
Subject: Re: Buses and Bikes - Summary (Long)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 18:15:15 GMT

The Roaring Foark Transit Agency, providing service in Aspen - Snowmass - 
Carbondale area has bike racks mounted in front of the bus, carrying up to
4 bikes at a time.  While you cannot bring your bike to bus stops between
Rubey Park in Aspen and Aspen Airport Business Centre, the bus system makes it
very convenient to bring your bike.  Oh, yes, if the rack is full, you will 
have to wait an hour (in summer) for the next bus, though.

-- 
Ken Iisaka                  NEXT RECITAL: 12:00 pm, Thursday, January 7th, 1993
kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca       Produced by  National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa
AI Lab, University of Ottawa   CBC Stereo Berg        Sonata, b minor, op. 1
H: +1 613 237 6642  W: 564 8155  103.3 FM Mussorgsky  Pictures at an Exhibition
From: Dave Snyder <davesnyder@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:02 PDT
Subject: Re: bike trail info wanted
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep27.180054.15890@husc3.har:798025753:cdp:1702500009:000:494
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!davesnyder    Sep 29 18:02:00 1992


Re: the east coast bike trail.

You may want to contact some east coast bicycle advocacy groups,
who are online. They have formed an East Coast bicycle coalition
who should be working on this, in addition to their work to allow
bicyclesrolling access on Amtrak.

they are: 
the Bicycle coalition of the Delaware Valley
bcdv@igc.apc.org
Washington Area Bicyclist's Association
waba@igc.apc.org

there are a few others, but I don't have their e-mail addresses handy
at the moment.
\
cheers,
dave
From: Dave Snyder <davesnyder@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:55 PDT
Subject: Re: Buses and Bikes - Summary (Long)
Nf-ID: #R:Bv4A6u.2yD@u36.kwnet.on.ca:-316146485:cdp:1702500008:000:1254
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!davesnyder    Sep 29 17:55:00 1992


From: hooning@cirrus.com (Mike Hooning) Subject: Metro Transit to
allow bikes on buses in Seattle area To: davesnyder@igc.org (David
Snyder) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 12:35:23 PDT
>
>       (SEATTLE)- Metro is considering a pilot project that would
let
> bicyclists put their bikes on the bus. The service, already
offered in
> Tacoma and Everett, would encourage people to leave their cars
at home
> by making it easier to travel by bus and bike. While Metro
staffers
> generally like the idea, they have alot of questions that must
be
> answered before recommending a trial program. The agency doesn't
want
> more hassles for bus drivers and passengers, who at times would
have to
> share their ride with wet and greasy bicycles. According to a
Metro
> report, the Puget Sound region has more bikes than cars. In
Seattle,
> about 11 percent of people either walk or bike to work. By
making its
> buses available to cyclists, Metro could greatly expand its
ridership.

message forwarded from :

> From oliveb!cs.washington.edu!drk Tue Sep 15 10:01:27 1992
> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 09:56:32 -0700
> From: drk@cs.washington.edu
> Message-Id: <9209151656.AA26399@sculpin.cs.washington.edu>
> To: cyclists@sculpin.cs.washington.edu
> Subject: Bikes on the Bus...
From: biow@cs.umd.edu (chris biow)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: HOV abolished!
Date: 5 Oct 92 13:33:06 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

So that confused netters may understand what is going on, 
these posts about the high-occupancy vehicle lanes are
(or should be) restricted to Distribution: dc, so that
only Washingon, DC area machines get them. However, the
dc distribution "leaks" out of the area, reaching machines
as far away as South Africa.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,dc.driving,dc.general
From: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com (Bob Geer)
Subject: Re: Commute, a beautiful morning...
Reply-To: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:27:21 GMT

louray@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Panayiotakis) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.115706.24258@linus.mitre.org> woycke@smiley.mitre.org (Daniel Woycke) writes:
>>to work 15 miles and saw 3 deer, a fox, 
>I saw a rakoon, a fox, and plenty of squirels, all package-ready for the "road-
>kill cafe". 

By far my favorite road-kill is Oregon's possums.  Those long, round
as a 25-cent piece, hairless tails don't seem to flatten out at all --
kinda reminds me of super-rat.

-- 
<> Bob `Bear' Geer | bgeer@beorn.sim.es.com                        |_______| <>
<>      lift-holic |  (this *often* works)        _O_    |___O___| | |_O_| | <>
<> Salt Lake City, | speaking only for myself, |_|_|_|_| | `'|`' |     |     <>
<>          Ootah  | one of my many tricks     |  / \  |    / \       / \    <>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
From: erik@peewee.nwc.navy.mil (Erik van Bronkhorst       Code 3814                               Phone 939-1421)
Subject: motorcycle hits bicycle || tennis ball hits spooge...
Organization: NAVAIRWARCENWPNDIV, China Lake
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:24:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.033513.19829@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> 
bushnell@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (William D. Bushnell) writes (a novel):
>
>On a club (bicycle) ride I took yesterday up in the Santa Cruz Mountains 
.
.
.
>abreast in the lane.  Many but not all of them wore leather jackets emblazoned
>with "Hell's Angels" on the back.

Maybe you should be talking to them.  Just because this group is about
motorcycles doesn't mean it's about HA.  Talk about a worn out stereotype...

.
.
.
>Those of us on the bicycle ride talked about what we might do if anything.  Did
>any of us have a cellular phone?  One of my riding friends always carries a
>cellular phone. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  !!!!!!!!

>First, since the motorcyclist who hit the bicyclist did not identify himself,
>this is a case of hit and run.  Since the bicyclist was riding lawfully and
>did not swerve or make any other sudden motion in the direction of passing
>traffic, the motorcyclist is clearly at fault.

Then don't whine, call the cops.

>Second, whether or not the motorcyclist identifies himself, the participants in
>the collision must by law file a police report since there was an injury.
>Also, did I goof?  Should I have spoken with the police independent of the
>participants?

Uh, yah, (if) you are a witness.

>Is there a campaign of harassment of bicyclists by motorcyclists going on?  Or
>are there just a few disgruntled renegade motorcyclists out there giving the
>law-abiding motorcyclists a bad image?

No.  No.  But personally, I for one am tired of hearing bicyclists whining
particularly in rec.moto.  You don't hear me sobbing about my close calls
with cars in rec.tricycles do you?  Please shut up.

>In this case, and as far as I know, the bicyclist sustained only moderate
>injuries, and his bike suffered at least a busted rear wheel.  But it could
>have been worse.

Sounds like Monty Python's "Cycling Tour" doesn't it?
How did his sandwiches and hard boiled eggs fare?

>As I said at the top, I'm interested in starting a _reasoned_ discussion aimed
>at clearing up misunderstandings that motorcyclists and bicyclists have with
>respect to each other.  Please do not start a flame war or rekindle the last
>one that died off a few months ago.                        ^^^^^^^^

What do you think you have just done?

>Bicyclists and motorcyclists are on the road for many of the same reasons.

If this were true in my case, I would ride a bicycle more often than I
drive my car.  I don't own a bicycle. 

-- 
Erik van Bronkhorst KC6UUT DoD#4342585443 AMA#[classified]
"Truth is false and logic lost, now the fourth dimension is crossed..."
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles,rec.bicycles.misc,nyc.general,ny.general,rec.backcountry
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Subject: Re: Commute, a beautiful morning...
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:02:56 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> In article <1992Oct2.115706.24258@linus.mitre.org> woycke@smiley.mitre.org (Daniel Woycke) writes:
>>I just had to let folks know about my commute this morning. I biked in
>>to work 15 miles and saw 3 deer, a fox, and a nice (not great)
>>sunrise. The only animals I tend to see while driving are dead. Isn't
>>this a wonderful reason to bike commute.

	Even when not commuting,  the nature side of riding is great,
especially amongst all the great countryside we get in New Zealand. Still,
it's spring down here at the moment, and I've been dive-bombed by nesting
magpies twice!
	I was once on a long downhill through a valley, with a steep climb
on one side and a steep drop on the other, and came across a stray sheep
whose only options were to stop and let me pass or try and out-run me.
I wasn't even pedalling, but doing around 40km/h - that sheep kept ahead
of me for at least 300 meters!

	Jonathan

Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:460 rec.motorcycles:34939 ba.motorcycles:482
From: hesh@cup.hp.com (Chris Steinbroner)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1:30p)
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:50:10 GMT
Reply-To: Chris Steinbroner <hesh@cup.hp.com>
Organization: HP-UX Kernel Lab, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Arnie Berger (arnie@col.hp.com) wrote:
: motorcycles blazing by at 70 or 80 mph.

snicker.  that's slow.  seriously.  70mph is easy to achieve,
even on the few turns there are.  not that i'm boasting or
anything, just pointing out that 100 is something to talk
about, not 70 or 80.

: That situation up there is a tragedy
: waiting to happen.

and they do happen, often.  not with just bicyclists,
but with cars too, and solo.

: Why doesn't CHP set up nice, major radar-trap, production
: line.

they do, but they are ineffective.  there are too many
(stupid) riders.  they'll just keep coming back.

-- hesh
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Buses and Bikes - Summary 
Keywords: transit systems, buses.
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:08:27 GMT

In article <Bv4A6u.2yD@u36.kwnet.on.ca>, sp@u36.kwnet.on.ca (Sean P Goggin) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I asked some questions of the net concerning the locations of 
> transit systems which permit bicycles to be carried as a matter of 
> routine.
> 
> Below is a summary of information gleaned.
[much deleted]

> Cyclist Friendly Communities.
> 
> Boulder, CO. has 100 loaner bikes and 50 helmets on hand for
> tourists. There is no charge for this service, users leave a
> credit card number as deposit. 

I have never heard of this.  Can the person who provided this information
let me know his or her source?  Is this supposedly a city program?

The reason I am skeptical is that Boulder heavily promotes their
"GO BOULDER" program to encourage alternate modes transportation,
and I have never heard of this.

-- 
/\                
  \_][ <--NCAR Ilana Stern dod#009 r.b. cliff swallow ilana@ncar.ucar.edu    
      \______________________________________________________________________
From: JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: US govt bikepath policy
Date: Sun,  4 Oct 92 08:36:00 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

      FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATOR WANTS CYCLISTS ON BIKEPATHS

   Dr. Tom Larson, the Administrator of the Federal Highway
Administration and the top U.S. official in highway affairs, loves
bike paths and wants cyclists off the roadways. Oh, he doesn't like
to publicly admit his position and tries to mislead the public about
it, but there is plenty of proof. Here are three sets of facts.

   Larson took time from his busy schedule to "join trail advocates
riding from the U.S. Capitol to the Department of Transportation
headquarters, July 30, on the final leg of a journey that started in
Boston, Mass. for advocates of an East Coast Greenway." He planned
more time from his busy schedule to "travel to Missoula, Mont. to
address the National Trails Symposium on the subject of ISTEA and the
available trails funding."  (Pro Bike News, August 92) A busy
bureaucrat who takes time to do these things must believe that they
reflect his official policy and are worth the time and effort.

   When I wrote to my congressman, Tom Campbell, in April 92, that
the FHWA had a history of trying to kick cyclists off the roads, Dr.
Larson injected himself into the discussion by making a public
announcement that the FHWA considered cyclists to be legitimate users
of the highway system and writing the same to Tom Campbell. However,
when I told Larson that the question had never been whether cyclists
were legitimate users of the *highway system* and directly asked him
whether he considered cyclists to be legitimate *roadway* users he
replied that he refused to answer that question and stood on his
previous statement that cyclists were legitimate users of the highway
system. To those who don't know the difference, it is based on very
basic legal terminology which Dr. Larson fully understands. The man
who says that cyclists are legitimate highway users but not
legitimate roadway users is saying that cyclists are legitimate users
of only dirt, ditch, sidewalk and bikepath, not of the roadway.
Furthermore, the intelligent and well-informed official who maneuvers
to make his official and public position clear by using such
subterfuges as public ignorance of the difference between highway and
roadway does so because he intends to mislead the public. Had he
wanted to be clear, it would have been so much easier to say the
truth that the FHWA supports bike paths as the proper place for
cyclists. 

   When I mentioned the FHWA's desire to get cyclists off the
roadways to the Montreal VeloCity92 conference in September, one of
Dr. Larson's subordinates who was fully informed of the above details
stood up and repeated Dr. Larson's claim to be in favor of bicycling.
I refuted him with the above story.

   The deeper you dig in this political dirt the smellier it gets and
the worse for cyclists.

JForester@cup.portal.com               John Forester
                                       726 Madrone Ave
408-734-9426                           Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA
From: skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Buses and Bikes - Summary
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:13:02 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

jmd@muppet.bt.co.uk (John Downey) writes:
>|
>| Bicyles can be taken on board the underground subway trains.
>|
>+---------

>On certain lines. (Specifically, the ones coloured yellow, green &
>purple on the Underground map, which are fairly close to the surface.)
>Otherwise, no. In the deeper stations, it's very awkward to carry
>bikes up & down the escalators anyway.

>+---------
>|
>| They
>| can also be taken on most trains - urban or long distance. Some
>| trains have baggage cars in which the bikes are carried. More
>| frequently they are just taken into the passenger compartment.
>| Bikes are not allowed on commuter trains during rush hours.
>|
>| No additional charge.
>|
>+---------

>Not in principle, but I've been asked to buy a "cycle reservation
>ticket" (3 pounds) to carry my bike in a guard's compartment on an
>Inter-City train; a kind of "back-door" charge. Still, it can be
>done.

The jobsworth can be awkward if you dont reserve in advance.