HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aph@oclc.org (Andrew P. Houghton)
Subject: What happened to the group working on free ANSI FORTH?
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:48:30 GMT

I have not seen any progress from the people working on the free
ANSI FORTH implementation.  Has the group working on it disbanded
or are they hard at work?  Inquiring minds would like to know.
-- 
Andrew P. Houghton, MC 265                   Internet:  aph@dev.oclc.org
OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.    UUCP:      colnet!fssun09!aph
6565 Franz Road                              Voice:     (614) 764-6003
Dublin, Ohio  43017-0702                     Fax:       (614) 764-6096
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 03:04:23 GMT

How about just using BLOCKs or groups of them as libraries. I use blocks,
even though I like the convenience of text editors (qedit). Normally I write
one word per block and test it, adding blocks from other files as I need
them. Once I start using up space I often use BunBlock and include the text
files, or better convert them to binary files and BGET them.

I'm not a rabid BLOCK fan, but they are only bad if one starts overcrowding
the screens, then of course editing is a real pain.

regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: lcd@ais.org (Leon Dent)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: UMCC
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 01:01:39 GMT

In article <19078@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>penev@venezia (Penio Penev) writes:
>
>> <clean, self-documenting list of screens>
>>
>> Try to have this with files. And talk about documentation afterwards.
>
>I see no reason why it can't be done with a regular text editor capable of
>collapsing text.  Clicking on a word or heading would open up the next level
>of information.  Written properly (in Forth, of course (-: ), it could offer
>all sorts of options for viewing the program and documentation.
>

I believe this is available in F-PC.


I also do not want to start a flame war but...

I almost printed out Penio Penev's article to permanently remind me of why
Forth is in the position it is in.

Leon Dent
lcd@ais.org
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Experimental Ideas (STOIC?)
From: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips)
Date: 1 Jan 93 03:07:21 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

In article <4179.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>,
	MARCEL HENDRIX writes:

[I'm quoting more than I otherwise would, because it has taken me so long
 to reply.  -Doug]

+ dw> It is even worse than that.  What if the user uses CREATE DOES>
+ dw> in the nameless colon definition?  Better not forget that code!

+ Ok, in practice this will mean you can do more than the
+ interpreter allows, but still not everything. I'd say the code is
+ temporary by definition, so what you want with DOES> is clearly
+ illegal (in that it can't work :)

+ dw> If that code also does ALLOT or HERE manipulation, what does
+ dw> "forgetting" it mean?

+ The final result must be the same as typing  5 ALLOT  or  CREATE
+ foo 3 , that is, the change is ``permanent''. It has to be.  Of
+ course the compiled (temporary) code cannot reside at HERE , if
+ that is what you meant. That would interfere with about anything.

Right, so that even though it almost acts as if you did:
    : tmp ... ; tmp forget tmp
it can't be _that_ easy since HERE and ALLOT would be ineffective.  You
then have to allocate the space for the temporary word somewhere else.  Ah,
but then don't you need to modify : or maybe ] to make them compile
somewhere other than HERE ?  ...  and you need (perhaps?) some way of
dealing with immediate words, that is, in postponing them?

+ To do it well, a string stack (not known and not a number  foo :
+ 1+ ; ) or changed syntax ( S" foo" : 1+ ; ) is needed.  As people
+ have mentioned already, it then starts to resemble STOIC (don't
+ know it, but looks interesting). The version with the S" may be
+ possible with little internal change and very little side
+ effects, but it sure gives a different look to the source code.

Yeah, it starts getting messy.  I'm not at all convinced that blurring the
line, when it cannot be entirely erased, won't lead to more confusion,
rather than less.  However, this issue may be no less contentious than
the state-smart versus stateless word issue.  ;-)

-Doug
---
Preferred:  dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us	Ok:  {pitt,sei}!willett!dwp
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:58:58 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <4195.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us> ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) writes:
>Category 3,  Topic 3
>Message 8         Mon Dec 28, 1992
>ELLIOTT.C                    at 12:26 EST
> 
> ----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board -
>  USR Dual Standard 16.8K  (416) 629-7000
>
> Date: 12-19-92 (13:38)
>   To: ALL
> From: MARK VANDITTA
> Subj: FORTH CODING STYLE
>
> Is it my imagination, or do most Forth programmers lack formal
> instruction in structured coding?  I have found that most Forth
> programmers write code that is even more unlegible than that of C
> programmers raised on DEC Writers.  Why do Forth programmers
> insist on packing so many words on a single line at the sacrifice
> of clarity?

> Here's an example from
> Frank Sargent's Pygmy:
>
> CODE 0branch HERE T0BR !
>  AX LODS, DI BX CMP, 0=, IF, AX SI MOV, THEN, BX POP,
>  NXT,   END-CODE
>
> Now I really like what Frank has done with Pygmy, but his coding
> style leaves a lot to be desired.  I had to reformat his code to
> be able to follow its structure.
>
> CODE 0branch
>     HERE T0BR !
>     AX LODS,
>     DI BX CMP,
>     0=, IF,
>         AX SI MOV,
>     THEN,
>     BX POP,
>     NXT,
> END-CODE
>
> Granted, I used 10 lines instead of 3, but it is now clear to me

This is a side-effect of those ever-so-limiting 64 x 16 damn SCREENS!

In normal file-based environments (which all other languages are
standardized on), you don't have to worry about packing as much
into that tiny space as possible.

In otherwords, with SCREENS, there is no way to create pretty,
indented, clear code.  You either have to spread it over
several screens (requiring constant flipping in an editor), or
pack the hell out of each line (to get it all visible in one place).

SCREENS only display 16 lines at a time.  More dark ages stuff which
continues to cripple Forth's image.

Personally, I'll probably never work with SCREENS again, as I don't
anticipate any more SBC projects.  That's fine with me, as Forth
really does interface well with modern OS's (even some that aren't
so modern), and I'm spoiled by working with standard text files
for about 7 years now.  I can't imagine ever preferring SCREENS...
and I don't care how cool a Forth SCREEN editor you have... there are
much better ones for text files.

I hope I never again have to wind my way trough something like...

5 LOAD 8 LOAD 23 LOAD 100 110 THRU 56 LOAD 13 LOAD etc. etc. etc
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Help with ... "NUMBER?"
From: mentink@wronz.org.nz
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:06:39 +1300



          Can anyone help, the standard EFORTH word-set includes the word
NUMBER? which converts a number string entered interactivly by the user.
Although it accepts hex numbers e.g $4000, it does not conform to the
usual FORTH and allow you to enter a double number e.g 123.45

Can anyone help by providing a modification of the EFORTH source for the
word. Follows below ....... 

  Alternatively....
  Provide a seperate word to allow you to enter a double number on the
  stack.


  Thanks in advance.

/ --------------------- Source starts here -----------------------------


: NUMBER? ( a -- n T, a F )
  BASE @ >R  0 OVER COUNT ( a 0 b n)
  OVER C@ [ CHAR $ ] LITERAL =
  IF HEX SWAP BYTE+ SWAP 1 - THEN ( a 0 b' n')
  OVER C@ [ CHAR - ] LITERAL = >R ( a 0 b n)
  SWAP R@ - SWAP R@ + ( a 0 b" n") ?DUP
  IF 1 - ( a 0 b n)
    FOR DUP >R C@ BASE @ DIGIT?
      WHILE SWAP BASE @ * +  R> BYTE+
    NEXT R@ ( ?sign) NIP ( b) IF NEGATE THEN SWAP
      ELSE R> R> ( b index) 2DROP ( digit number) 2DROP 0
      THEN DUP
  THEN R> ( n ?sign) 2DROP R> BASE ! ;

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Bernie Mentink   ( Christchurch N.Z. )
	email: mentink@wronz.org.nz

	      .... Some things have to be seen to be believed,
     	           Most things have to be believed to be seen ....
	-----------------------------------------------------------------


From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Maryland FIG News
Date: 25 Dec 92 10:08:53 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 8,  Topic 8
Message 2         Wed Dec 16, 1992
ELLIOTT.C                    at 21:49 EST
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board -
 USR 16.8K Dual Standard  (416) 629-7000

 Date: 12-15-92 (19:03)
   To: ALL
 From: MIKE NEMETH
 Subj: MDFIG Meeting

 Maryland Forth Interest Group Next will meet Saterday December
 19, 1992 at 1:00 pm in the Kossiakoff center, John Hopkins U.
 Applied Physics Lab., Laurel, MD. Topic: SSBUV update, Bob
 Caffrey. For more info contact: Mike Nemeth at 301-262-8140(h) or
 301-794-1678(w) ---
  * The Programmer's Corner 410-995-6873 & 301-596-7692
  * PostLink(tm) v1.04  PROGCRNR (#1520) : RelayNet (tm)


-----
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From: Interface!Lady_Bacardi@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: net
Date: 19 Dec 92 07:01:00 EDT
Organization: Late Night Interface, 707-544-9661, 10pm-Dawn
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

  Hiya all again... and bye too! 
    I have had to pull the net to this room, it was causing interface problems
 with my system.  Seems Asgard and b0badel aren't compatible enough. (sigh) 
    
   But, I have one last word about the FigTree discussion which I hope will 
clear things up a bit.  I believe the original question was about a BBS 
called FigTree, while the package I wrote was of the same name.  I had dubbed
 it FigTree because it was a tree-based system based on fig library 
listings... 
   well, chow fer now... 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: penev@venezia (Penio Penev)
Subject: Re: native FORTH for R3000/IRIX available /beta/ (was Re: forth+)
Organization: Rockefeller University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:03:07 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Reply-To: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu
X-Posted-From: venezia.rockefeller.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I received feedback from several people and think, that the following
may be of somewhat more general interest.

This FORTH (pF) is direct threaded. The incetive is to be able to mix
word calls and direct assembler, which will allow optimisation. One
reference to a word is 2 intructions (8 bytes). The call is executed
in 2 clocks. The branch delay slot is utilised. The return from a CODE
word is 2 clocks, the return from a : word is 4 clocks, the branch
delay slots being utilised.

The kernel is written in assembler, which means that it is optimised.
In general it is fairly easy to write the optimal code for this
processor. Almost all delay slots are utilised, very few and
unimportant ones are not. To my surprise, there are no lengthy pipe
refils after a branch. If the branch is at time T, the branch delay
slot istruction is at T+1, and the instruction at the destination is
at T+2. That means, that the fastest empty loop can be done for
2 clocks/iteration. 

I have not made optimisation yet. DUP, DROP, SWAP, @, C@, R>, >R
compile directly inline, but without optimisation. This should be
possible in general. My notion is that the time critical portions
should be written in assembler anyway. OK, that depends on what is
time critical.

I have not made measurements to see exactly how much faster is it, but
I'll do some soon. It target compiles itself for ~ 5 seconds on a 
33 MHz R3000. 

Once again, feel free to request it from me, I'll send it to You. Any
comments and suggestions are welcome.

-- Penio.
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth and Novell Netware, etc.
Date: 1 Jan 93 12:49:56 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 2,  Topic 27
Message 5         Wed Dec 30, 1992
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 23:55 EST
 
   To: MARK VANDITTA
 Subj: FORTH DEVELOPER'S GUIDE

 > I am looking for a good reference on Forth internals and
 > implementation techniques as I am currently looking to develop a
 > 32 bit DPMI based Forth.

As Jack Woehr said, Forth, Inc. has done a DPMI version of our 32 bit
polyFORTH for the 80396, but our soon to be released version is currently
running under VCPI (i.e. Desqview).  The DPMI version had some severe I/O
throughput restrictions that made it undesirable for our most recent needs. 
However, we are considering the implications of the Windows environment for
our next version.  Windows NT might be able to give us access to what we need,
better that DPMI/Windows 3.0 did.  On the other hand, if Microsoft Windows is
not what you need right now, then definitely check how our Beta works.  Call
Randy Liberknight for prices at (800) 55-FORTH.

   {B-{)>   DaR
-----
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Forth and Novell Netware, etc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:43:39 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

> CRS Premium Bulletin Board -
> USR Dual Standard 16.8K  (416) 629-7000
>
> Date: 12-18-92 (19:21)
>   To: ALL
> From: MARK VANDITTA
> Subj: FORTH DEVELOPER'S GUIDE
>
> ... Although, I have been using Forth off-
> and-on for over 10 years (mostly off), I have yet to develop my
> own version....

AMAZING!  Someone who hasn't rolled their own?  Is that allowed?
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Subject: Re: FORTH:, Filters and Esperanto
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 07:24:14 GMT

This is really tedious. If you don't like the ANSI process, go your own way.
Also most of us would never mistake Kelly and Spies book for some of the
other offerings. It is impossible for short succinct titles not to step on
one anothers' toes in some respect: consider Toppen's book "Forth" (Byte
Books). Guess he should have froze the whole title game for anyone using the
word "Forth" in their title.

regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
From: James.Meyer@f1.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (James Meyer)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Question: Programming Pra
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:51:00 GMT

On 12-21-92, ANTHONY E BIBLE wrote to ALL and said:

AE> 	I would be interested to know how others would approach this problem,
AE> or, if you think I'm just being anal retentive and this is not a problem, I'd
AE> like to hear your views on that too.

        I think that you're being a bit too hard on yourself.

        If I had to use a new "AND", I'd define it as "and" (lower
        case without the quotes).

        If I were *really* ambitious, I'd define a new "AND" that was
        smart enough to do both the job of the old "AND", and
        whatever else the new "AND" had to do.  "State-smart" and
        transparently so, so to speak.

        Jim

 * JABBER v1.2 * The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much bigger.
From: bs764@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Fred H Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Internet <--> Genie Email
Date: 24 Dec 1992 21:11:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Apparently it is finally possible to send Email between Internet
and Genie finally.  It would seem that this could be quite helpful
to Forthnet since most of us have access to one or the other.  
But I haven't seen mention of it on Forthnet yet.  Can a Genie
user elaborate?
 
As I understand it, from Internet one sends mail to 
<user>@geis.genie.com      My one attempt so far has failed.
Apparently the Genie user must subscribe to the additional
fee gateway service.  Does mail to Genie users without the
additional subscription  really get discarded without notice
to either the sender or the intended receiver as my test
seemed to indicate?  BTW how much additional does it cost?

Fred fred%jwh@vx.cis.umn.edu (preferred)
     fholson@uci.com (backup)
-- 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: jimlynch@netcom.com (Jim Lynch)
Subject: FigTree
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 00:21:23 GMT

FigTree (as I knew it) was a BBS in Albany back in the late 70s/early 80s.
It was written by PDP-11 implementor and implementation team member John James.

The internet should have such a tree...
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Hardware ONLY issues
Date: 25 Dec 92 10:08:55 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 9,  Topic 2
Message 126       Tue Dec 22, 1992
G.LEFAVE [Gene]              at 11:23 EST
 
Thanks for posting these benchmark timings.

One question.  Why would keeping the address of NEXT in a register on a 68040
be considered unrealistic?  Since the 68040 has more registers then Forth can
realistically use, I would think that was desirable.  It would also make the
68040, 486 comparison even more interesting.

Gene
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From: ahenden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Arne A Henden)
Subject: Re: Forth Developer's Guide
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:00:05 GMT

mikc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) writes:
>Ismithn@orvb.saic.com (Norman E. Smith, CDP) writes:
>>I suggest you pick up a copy of the Uniforth Professional package.
>>The manual is one of the best 'Forth Books' have run across
>>with good descriptions of the various threading techniques.
>>I picked up a copy a couple of weeks ago when Arne Henden was
>>selling it for $40 due to moving. He can be reached at
>>ahenden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu.
>>
>     I have a copy of the shareware version of Uniforth and I like it
>and would recommend it to beginners. But is the professional package
>still for sale, or was it a closeout that is no longer available? It
>would be a shame if a good Forth book became unavailable because of
>lack of interest. Uniforth is an old product that never seemed to be
>popular enough. If its manual is a good description of the inner workings
>of Forth, then there should be an effort to keep it in print.
>
>--
>   Michael Coughlin             mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu

The Professional Uniforth package is still for sale at $40/copy including
the 500+ page manual in slipcase binder.  There is a world of difference
between the Sampler and the Professional (which of course is why we
released the Sampler into the public domain); though the basic wordsets
are compatible, you get 1Mb of libraries, the manual, faster execution, etc.
However, we are moving and I don't want to cart all these manuals out
to Arizona.  Therefore the offer stands until either we sell out or
until the move takes place in about a month.  Send check made out to
     Unified Software Systems
     1288 Nantucket Avenue
     Columbus, OH 43235
Note:  this is for the DOS and CP/M versions of Uniforth only, and
continental U.S. postage is included in the $40 price.  You can email
me for any other specifics.
Arne Henden   ahenden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
               henden@mps.ohio-state.edu
              (614) 459-7735
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: jacobsen@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Joel Jacobsen)
Subject: Implementing Algolic algorithms in Forth ?
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:54:16 GMT

May the Forth wizards help me with that:

 I want to implement som 'Algolic languages' algorithms. Let's take
 the Quick Sort algorithm as an example. In that algorithm the programmer
 must call the sort function (word, procedure etc.) recursivly, with 
 sub-array of the array it got as input. 
 As far as I know, recursion in Forth mean: the ablity of word to use 
 itself. It is working in those cases when the word use only the stack,
 like a recursive definition of factorial. How may I write a definition
 like the quick sort one, in Forth. 
 
       Joel
From: smithn@orvb.saic.com (Norman E. Smith, CDP)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: RE: Forth Developer's Guide
Date: 30 Dec 1992 07:18:40 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

MARK VANDITTA wrote:

> Subj: FORTH DEVELOPER'S GUIDE
>
> I am looking for a good reference on Forth internals and
> implementation techniques as I am currently looking to develop a
> 32 bit DPMI based Forth.  Although, I have been using Forth off-
> and-on for over 10 years (mostly off), I have yet to develop my
> own version.  What I am looking for is information on the trade-
> offs between threading methods and segmentend versus non-
> segmented models as well task context management. I will be using
> my Forth as a vehicle for network server development.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark T. Van Ditta  Novell Professional Developer & CNE
>

I suggest you pick up a copy of the Uniforth Professional package.
The manual is one of the best 'Forth Books' have run across
with good descriptions of the various threading techniques.
I picked up a copy a couple of weeks ago when Arne Henden was
selling it for $40 due to moving. He can be reached at
ahenden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu.

Norm

PS: E-mail replies to smithn@orvb.saic.com NOT
    comp-lang-forth@cs.utexas.edu!!!!!

My affiliation with Uniforth is a satisfied user who got a BARGAIN on a
good Forth system!!
____________________________________________________________________
Norman E. Smith, CDP              Science Applications International
smithn@orvb.saic.com              P.O. Box 2501
                                  301 Laboratory Road
                                  Oak Ridge, Tenn. 37831-2501