From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Subject: Re: Did Jesus Claim to be God (Finally?)
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:06:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.015852.27413@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1992Aug10.230219.4894@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:

>> Back from vacation...
>
>Welcome back John.

Thanks Tim.  With as slow as our newsfeed is, it's old news now :-).

>But you've missed my point. The fact that the gospels say we are accountable 
>to him does not in any way imply that he is God.

I guess it's all the way you look at it, as far as accountability goes.
Scriptures says that we are accountable to center our lives around Jesus;
to love Him above all else; to obey Him; listen to His voice; to commune 
with Him and allow Him to lead us; etc.  He is the One who will judge the
world and determine the eternal destiny of every individual.
I, personally, would consider Him God based on this.  But I guess it's
all how you qualify God.

>> Yes.  Jesus changes hearts and takes away sin.  Only Jesus and His Father
>> are able to do this according to the testimony of the Bible!
>
>That's right, the Lord Yahweh and his messiah. Again, there is no indication
>of divinity here.

One who can take away my sin I would only qualify as God.

>> Most scholars date the Book of Revelation toward the end of the first
>> century.  The argument of the later NT writings, brought out in this
>> thread, was that the longer elapsed time from the witnessed events of
>> Jesus' life and the actual writing made them less reliable.  However,
>> this is not so in this case.  Internal evidence shows the letter to be 
>> written in response to the vision John saw while in prison:
>
>This is assuming (i) that the book really was written as the result of a
>vision (this was a standard topos in the jewish apocalyptic genre), (ii)
>that the vision was genuine (visions are and always have been a dime a
>dozen in religions throughout the world) and (iii) that the vision was
>revealed by the divine Jesus. I would say that Revelation was a standard
>jewish eschatological work which conforms to all the conventions of the
>apocalyptic genre. It's purpose was to make a number of theological
>and eschatological points and doesn't represent any real vision at all.

I would be interested in specific historic evidence that has allowed
you to come to this conclusion.

>You'd say that it was a revelation of Jesus to John. So what you are saying 
>is:'  Jesus is divine because he said so to John in a vision.' To which I
>reply 'I don't believe you. Let's stick to documentary facts.'

Yes, I would say this.  John believed He was divine.  John walked with Him
and was very close to Him.  He heard Jesus' words.  The fact is that John
was convinced.  

>[Zillions of 'Revelations' quotes deleted]

That's because there are many passages that declare the diety of Christ.

>> However, in this book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John tries to
>> bow down (proskuneo) before the angel with him, and the angel rebukes
>> him saying:
>> 
>> Rev 22:9 "Do not do it!  I am a fellow servant with you and your 
>> brothers the prophets and all who keep the words of this book.  Worship 
>> (proskuneo) God.!"
>
>Leaving aside the date and credibility of Revelation for a moment; this 
>passage has the angel saying 'What are you bowing to me for you idiot?!
>Bow down to God, there he is, over there.'

Exactly.  Please read on and see who is being worshipped:

Rev 5:8-9 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the
twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.  ...9 And they sang a new
song: "You are worthy to take the Scroll and open its seals, because 
you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from 
every tribe and language and people and nation."

Rev 5:12-14 12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was
slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and
glory and praise!" 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth
and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To
him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory
and power, for ever and ever!" 14 The four living creatures said, "Amen,"
and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is worshipped in heaven.  Like you say, Tim, the
angel is saying 'Bow down to God, there he is, over there.'

>And the fact that he was refered to as 'a great light' makes him God 
>incarnate?

Yes.

>The gospels *say* that it was blasphemy to say you were the messiah, and they 
>*say* that it was because of this blasphemy that Jesus was crucified. They are
>quite wrong on the first count and are almost certainly wrong on the second.
>We know what constituted blasphemy amongst the jews in the first century, and 
>claiming to be the messiah was *not* (how could it be? *Someone* had to be
>the messiah, so how could you execute everyone who did. Besides, we have
>independant evidence of people who claimed to be the messiah and were 
>questioned by the Sanhedrin about this claim and then allowed to go free)
>It is much more likely that the gospels try to make it seem that Jesus
>was executed for a jewish religious crime, because the fact that he was 
>actually executed for a Roman political crime was bad for their PR. 

That's a nice theory.  But the gospel writers recorded the words of
the Sanhedrin that declared Jesus was claiming to be someone that
constitued blasphemy.  I have chosen to accept this testimony at face
value for which it was intended.  And this confirms the other accounts
within the gospel writings where Jesus was accused of blasphemy.  

>He tells them to baptise in the name of Yahweh, his messiah (THE son) and 
>(literally) 'the sacred breath'. There is no implication of divinity here.
>Cheers,
>Tim O'Neill

I will continue to share more internal evidence of the early NT writings
that show Jesus is diety in another post.  Until then...

God bless you and keep you,
-- 
John Emery		"You say we've risen to a new age of light.
emery@tc.fluke.COM       You're telling me what used to be wrong
			 is now right."
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc