From: ron@eatdust (Ron Schweikert)
Subject: Re: Biblical persp. on homosexuality: also Christian responsibility
Summary: Christians are responsible to be involved in government
Organization: U S WEST Communications -- Information Technologies
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:44:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.215119.4168@craycos.com> mush@craycos.com (Randy Murrish) writes:
>
>For everyones information, the passages of the bible which talk (or
>are thought to talk about homosexuality) include:
>
>	Deuteronomy 23:17-18
>	Genesis 19:4-11
>	Judges 19:22
>	Levitcus 18:22, 20:13-14
>	1 Corinthians 6:9
>	1 Timothy 1:10
>
>	and
>
>	Romans 1:26-27 as Ron mentioned above.
>
>   >Somehow writing your religous belief of what is right and wrong into
>   >the Colorado Constitution doesn't sound like a free and equal society.
>   >I would think that if you are a believing Christian, you should feel
>   >compasion toward those who are different from you instead of hatred.
>   >
>   >Randy
>
>   I feel no hatred whatsoever towards gays, and it offends me that you would
>   say so.  I happen to believe the Biblical mandate: "God hates the sin, but
>   loves the sinner."  Hear what it said? "HATES the sin, but LOVES
>   the sinner."
>
>Using the word "your" when refering to religious beliefs was a mistake
>on my part and I apologize.  I myself have Christian friends who
>express the same opinion as you, they do not hate homosexuals, they
>simply believe that homosexuality is a sin.
>
>My problem, and the reason that I wrote the above paragraph, is the
>current trend of Christians imposing their beliefs on others through
>the government.  If they are doing this because they love homosexuals
>but want to turn them away from their sexual orientation, they should
>do that in outreach programs and through their church, NOT through the
>government.

Many do have outreach programs, but that is not the only avenue that can
be used to reach people.

The Bible is clear: God ordained governments.  Through His sovereignty (sp)
this is a nation "OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people."  It is
a representative government.  Christians (as citizens) ARE to be involved
in the government (pay tribute (support in operation) etc.).  Now, for
far too long the government has not been representing all of the people,
but in many people's mind (mine included) has bowed to the liberal left
wing people while the majority of people slept.  This country gives the
Christians (and all citizens) many rights, but with rights comes
responsibility.  The rights given (freedom of speech, freedom of religion
(non-interference or establishment of a state-run religion) and others 
can be taken away by Godless leaders.  I believe we've seen this quite a 
bit through legislating from the Supreme court.  America has turned it's
back on God and is paying the price (I'm writing from a Christian perspective,
if you don't happen to be Christian this won't mean much, but I'm answering
the post from that perspective).  Sin such as homosexuality was allowed
AS PUNISHMENT (Romans) for the people turning their backs on God.  

The Old Testament is a commentary of a wandering and rebellious people.
God preserved the atrocities and history of past peoples to serve as a
warning to us.

God used a variety of methods to turn his people back to him (typically by
just letting them do their own thing without guidelines or allowing
godless leaders to govern!).  Once they drove themselves to the bottom 
they turned back to him.  I *hope* that's not what is happening now.
Clinton may do a lot of good for the country (I certainly will pray for him
as an individual, but also as the president), but many of his policies
SCARE ME.  Now back to the original thread...many Christians (myself included)
feel that the government IS *ONE* proper vehicle for change.  By raising
issues and educating people changes *do* occur.  Matt Noah's ads have 
certainly raised the awareness level of many people regarding the reality
of abortion.  As far as a vehicle for change...many of us feel a
responsibility to have our nation's laws reflect the values of the people.
Many of us feel that currently they do not, so even though we will continue
to fight abortion through education and awareness, we feel also compelled
to have the country take a stance through it's written law.  Likewise for
some on the issue of homosexuality.  Our nation has many laws based upon
values (ie: laws against adultery, murder, rape, prostitution, drug abuse
etc.).  Many of us feel that there are others that need to be addressed as
well.

The fact is that there are over 4,000 abortions performed daily in the U.S.
alone.  Less than 5% of those are done for rape, incest or physical health
of the mother.  Americans in large numbers support abortion only for those
cases, but are they aware that 95% are done for other reasons?  Settling
the issue through the government process is a way to more accurately
reflect the will of the general populace (currently there are no restrictions
whatsoever on when a mother can obtain an abortion...no parental notification,
no restrictions for birth control or sex selection, viability...NOTHING).

>
>You will have to agree that there are some Christians that cannot
>separate their disgust at homosexuality and hatred of the individual.

I agree with that in the same way I agree that some non-christians cannot
separate their disgust towards Christianity from those individuals who
embrace it.  Neither is palatable.

>   Those of you who want to make it seem like Christians hate gays are just
>   stretching for some straw to hold onto perhaps your own bigotry (towards
>   Christians?).  While it *definately* is true that some Christians (I give
>   them the benefit of the doubt) seem to exhibit hatred, their actions ARE NOT 
>   Biblically supported nor shared by most Christians...certainly none that
>   I know. 
>
>If only every Christian were like you Ron, this world would be a very
>nice place.  

Thank you, but I'd rather pick another model (I've really got a long way to
go in my Christian maturity)!

>The unfortunate fact is that there are some Christians
>that believe that they should impose their beliefs on the unbelievers.

"Impose" is a foreboding word.  Why is it that when Christians raise issues
and try to bring them to awareness of the populace it is "imposing our will"
but when non-christians do it is just "public service" or whatever!?

>Randy Murrish

Have a good day Randy.  I hope you can distinguish between the desire
to use the established mechanisms as a vehicle for awareness and change
as opposed to "imposing" our beliefs on others.

Ron

Newsgroups: co.politics