From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Listening to others' opinions (was Re: Some clarification)
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:33:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.063140.25443@mumbo.apple.com> tse@loonybin.apple.com (Gary Tse) writes:
>In article <44729@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami) writes:
>>As far as my "fool" comment, what I mean is that every person is affected
>>by others.  To not acknowledge this fact is foolish.  You can disagree with
>>what others may say about you or do to you, but you cannot say that
>>it has no effect.
>
>You are confused between the fact of a thing and the rightness of that
>thing.  I don't seek to argue that people don't listen to the opinions
>of others.  Of course they do.  What I believe is that people *shouldn't*.

Gary, you're just flat-out being silly here.  People shouldn't listen to the
opinions of others??  Not in any way?  Are you serious?  If everybody had that
attitude, how could anybody reach a consensus on anything?  How could you
negotiate a peace treaty?  How could you negotiate anything, for that matter?
How could you pass a bill in Congress?  How could labor-management gridlocks
ever be resolved?  How would anybody who is clearly wrong about something ever
wake up and change their ways?

Let's imagine a world where people don't listen to the opinions of others...

[Labor vs management collective bargaining scenario]

Management #1:  So, have we agreed that union workers should be paid $12 an
                hour?
Labor #1:       No, they should be paid $13 an hour.
Management #2:  We've been at the negotiating table for two years now.  Can't
                we compromise on this?
Labor #2:       Yeah, let's compromise.
Management #1 & Labor #1:  No.
Management #2:  How about $12 an hour plus increased benefits?
Labor #1:       How about $13 an hour?
Management #1:  How about $12 an hour like we said two years ago?
Management #2:  Well, how about $12.50 an hour?
Labor #1:       How about $13 an hour?
Management #1:  How about $12 an hour?
Labor #2:       I think $12.50 is acceptable to the others.  Let's take this
                offer.
Labor #1:       Let's NOT take this offer.  $13 an hour.
Management #2:  Looks like your guy says $12.50 is acceptable.
Labor #1:       I don't listen to "my guy" or anybody else.  Only a fool
                listens to the opinions of others in any way.  $13.
Management #2:  Look, your guy said $12.50 was acceptable!!  Take it!!
Labor #1:       Did you not hear me the last time?  $13 an hour.
Management #1:  Who said $12.50 was acceptable?
Labor #1:       Your partner.
Management #1:  But I don't listen to him.  I'm no fool.  $12 an hour, like
                I said in the beginning.
etc etc, ad infinitum

[Scenario #2:]
Wife (talking to alcoholic husband):  Honey, you're an alcoholic.  Will you
          please attend this AA meeting!
Husband:  No, I don't think I'm an alcoholic.
Wife:     Your mother said you're an alcoholic.  Your father said it.  Your
          boss said it.  Your son said it.  Your daughter said it.  Your
          clergyman said it.  The cop who charged you with DWI said it!
Husband:  So?  Since when do I listen to anybody else's opinion?  I'm not an
          alcoholic.
Wife:     Our next-door neighbor said so.  Everybody at your job says it.
          The judge threatened to put you in jail if you don't go.  You're
          an alcoholic!
Husband:  Says who?  Me?  Did **I** say it?  Then I ain't going to no AA
          meeting.
Wife:     Don't you ever listen to anybody on anything?
Husband:  Nope.  I'm no fool.
...

Person #1:  So, when should we have our meeting to discuss new members?  I say
            10 am on Monday.
Person #2:  I say 10 am on Tuesday.
Person #3:  I say 11 am on Friday.
Person #4:  I say never.
Person #5:  I say now.
Person #1:  No, seriously, let's all be here at 10 am on Monday.
Person #2:  I'll be here at 10 am on Tuesday.
Person #3:  Friday.
Person #4:  You guys are all wasting your time.  I'm not going to any meeting.
Person #5:  Why not have the meeting now?
Person #1:  No, seriously, why can't we ever agree on anything?  Monday is the
            best time.
Everybody else:  Says who???
...

Husband:  Johnny should go to public school.
Wife:     Johnny should go to private school.
Husband:  No, I'm right here.
Wife:     No, I am.
Husband:  Public school is best for him.
Wife:     No, private school is best for him.
Husband:  We've been having this argument since he was born.  Why don't you
          ever listen to my opinion?
Wife:     Because if I did, I'd be a fool.  Why don't *YOU* listen to *MY*
          opinion.
Husband:  Becuase I don't listen to anybody's opinion but my own.
Wife:     So have we decided to send him to a private school?
Husband:  Nope.  Ain't listening to your opinion.
Wife:     Well, I'm not listening to yours, either.

Etc etc...

Add other scenarios.  :-)

>In your original post, you wrote:
>>Only
>>a fool can shrug off the opinions of others as ultimately insignificant.
>
>I would say that only the fool takes the opinions of others as significant
>in any way.  It's just a shame that so many of us are fools so often.
 ^^^^^^^^^^
In any way??  Surely you must be kidding.  You're pulling my leg here, right?

I'm rather glad Gary is the only person I know of who feels this way.

Jim