HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: allyn@milton.u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks)
Subject: Re: CDs,books... about antique greek music
Summary: Aristoxenus and Cleonides
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 07:52:09 GMT

stefanb@delos.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Bechtold) asks:
>I'm interested in any material about antique greek music.
>What I'm looking for are CDs,records..., books (about musiclife
>and theory) etc.

Atrium Musicae de Madrid has a CD (Musique de la Grece Antique, Harmonia
Mundi HMA 901015) of all of the extant snippets.  They did their best to
make instruments matching the available pictures and descriptions of the
originals.  I have no idea how good their scholarship is (I think I hear
a fair amount of Gregorio Paniagua's sense of humor coming through), but
I like the CD.  Very strange, and lots of fun.  Use it to amaze people at
parties!

I assume Grove's has a good article with references - they seem to have a
good article about pretty much everything.  (I eagerly await a CD-ROM
edition with hypertext links and audio examples.  Bound to happen
eventually.)

Gustave Reese _Music in the Middle Ages_ (Norton, NY) starts off with 40
pages about ancient Greek music theory.

Oliver Strunks' _Source Readings in Music History_ (Norton again) has
five selections from Greek sources: Plato, Aristotle, Aristoxenus
(introduction from the Harmonic Elements), Cleonides (Harmonic
Introduction (complete, I think)), and Athenaeus.  Plato, Aristotle and
Athenaeus are all music's place in society rather than hard-core theory.


Sorry no ISBNs: the editions I have predate them.  But any good library
should have them if they aren't still in print.

Aristoxenus is worth looking up - the Harmonic Elements has survived
complete, and there are fragments of a second book _Elements of
Rhythmics_.  The excerpt I have (in the above  _Source Readings_) comes
from _The Harmonics of Aristoxenus_ translated by H.S. Macran, Clarendon
Press, Oxford, 1902.  I expect that there's a newer translation as part
of the Loeb(?) dual-language Greek and Latin series, though I haven't got
around to looking yet.  The introduction is a lot like introductions to
modern textbooks - a survey of what the book will cover and why you
should learn it.  By harmonics, he means melody, not what we consider
harmonics, and it is only one of the important parts of music, the others
being rhythmics, metrics(?), and organics(?).

Allyn Weaks
allyn@milton.u.washington.edu
From: cbarber@bbn.com (Chris Barber)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: La Traviata
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:51:21 GMT
Organization: BBN Systems and Technology, Inc.

In article <1992Aug24.163543.1@gsbacd.uchicago.edu> 
ca_ac@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes:

>one notable exception to most people's short list of opera recordings 
>was La Traviata.

>But as Vinh Nguyen touched on in one of his postings, none of the available
>recordings are completely satisfying even though some are succesful in many 
>respects.

I missed this post, but I disagree with this conclusion. I have the
the 1967 Caballe/Bergonzi/Milnes recording and am very happy with it.
While I might imagine a better performance to be possible, I find this
one does all that I could ask for.



-- 
Christopher Barber
(cbarber@bbn.com)
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Cardew and "people's music"
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:39:24 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) wrote:
> Please read the article of CC's I cited.  Pay special attention to the
> last several pages, wherein Cardew calls for an end to "formalist
> garbage", and sounds the trumpet for a "people's music", presumably
> of the sort you deride, presumably overseen by committees consisting
> of the politically enlightened.

Cardew's actual practice suggests your "presumably" is wild fantasizing.
The Scratch Orchestra movement was one of anarchic experimentation with no
trace of a selection committee putting a damper on things - look at the
stuff the book suggests doing, for crying out loud.  Calling for a
"people's music" is something quite a few other people on the left have
done, including anarchists like Trevor Wishart; its minimal platform is not
one of restriction, but of enlargement of possibilities - letting the
working class as a whole have more access to the resources required for
public musical performance, at least.

It's a fair question to ask what happens when limited resources have to be
allocated, and conflicts result, like who gets to use the concert hall.
Well, the way access to halls and orchestras is determined now is no
miracle of democracy, is it?  When did you last get to vote for your local
orchestra's board of management?  When did you last see a community-based
working-class arts group get to use your local concert hall for anything?

It would be interesting to compare the programming of Soviet orchestras
under Stalin with those of typical American orchestras under their
corporate-influenced dictatorships.  Were they very different?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Aug25.225722.21384@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>
	<17el9lINNn59@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
	<1992Aug26.022235.10818@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:26:10

In article <1992Aug26.022235.10818@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen) writes:
>principles are similar, so I know what you mean.  But he cites piano which
>he thinks is less of a problem.  I don't see why it should be.  One is still
>doing transposition.  And arguably black notes are a teeny bit harder, at
>least for a relatively beginning player, than white notes.  But they don't
>make B pianos :-) !  You just practise more.

  If I remember right, I've read somewhere that when Chopin taught his
  pupils, he started with B major (right hand) or D flat major (left hand),
  just because they are easiest to play. That you can check yourself
  by going to a piano and putting your hand on keyboard. You'll see
  that those scales are the easiest for your hands, because your
  fingers are of different length! (It doesn't count that pieces
  written in those keys are harder to read)!
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Have you heard the one about...
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:28:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <7207@lib.tmc.edu> garretso@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Leon T. Garretson) writes:
>
>	Sorry to be so general, but believe me, you'd know it if you
>	heard it... I'm desperate for the title.   Thanks. Leon

The original article, sent by a broken news program, asked about a polka
version of Wagner. 

I haven't heard it, but I did hear, on the radio a few years ago, a bootleg
recording of music from the Ring done as waltzes.  It was hilarious.

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:13:43 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

> >xx% of Mozart's work could be directly related back to work of Bach.

> Now, could you name some specific piece?  This sounds like a piece of
> crank musicology that Bach-worshipers are especially good at.

  my favorite is "Lech mich im Arsch" - a lovely choral work in explicit
  imitation of Bach's polyphonic vocal style (though of course the text is
	 lost, but the title given by Mozart gives some idea of the nature of
  the text, not something that JSB would have set, to be sure...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: vberkel@let.rug.nl (A. van Berkel)
Subject: Glenn Gould Festival 1992
Summary: October 2, 3, 4. Groningen, The Netherlands
Keywords: Glenn Gould, piano, concerts, lectures
Organization: Faculteit der Letteren, Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, NL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:27:00 GMT

On October 2-4 the Glenn Gould Festival will be held at De Oosterpoort 
Groningen The Netherlands.
Pianorecitals by Angela Hewitt, Grigory Sokolov, Tatiana Nikolaeva, Bruno 
Monsaingeon, Lars Vogt and others.
Lectures by Therese Salviat (France), Junichi Miyazawa (Japan), Kevin Doyle (
Canada), Jamesw Strecker (Canada). Daniel Kunz (Switzerland) Detlef Kraus (
Germany) John Roberts (Canada) and others.
More information can be obtained from the International Glenn Gould Society,
P.O. Box 350, 9700 AS  Groningen The Netherlands. Phone: ++31 50 184320
Fax: ++31 50 141134
or
Email: vberkel@let.rug.nl

Arrie van Berkel
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Subject: Re: How about some JOHN CAGE suggestions?
Keywords: cage, suggest
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:44:40 GMT

Saw a video about Cage that is published by Mystic Fire.  I think it is
from a series called FOUR AMERICAN COMPOSERS.  Has some performances from
the 70th birtday celebration in London and some Indeterminacy Lectures.  
Presents a lot of things chronologically, which Cage may not have liked.  I 
doubt it can give you a complete summary of his works, but it is fairly wide
ranged.  And of course you get his philosophy in his lectures and
anecdotes.  Roughly 50 minutes in length, I would say try to rent it if
you can find it.

Jeff

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Subject: Taking a peeve (was Re: John Massari's Music...)
Summary: John Massari's Music on multi-network special!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: music, synth, composer, genius, Massari
Organization: Dept. of Independence
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:49:00 GMT

In article <jittlov.715212494@gumby.cs.caltech.edu>, jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov) writes...
>    John is very happy with all music for this TV special


Are we very happy that a few people in mass media-land can reduce
the TV alternatives for millions of Americans to zero?
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cage's Bunnies (was Re: Manners, children please...)
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:33:49 GMT
Organization: Digital Systems Co., Atlanta GA


jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell) suggests:
: "Three Dances for Two Prepared Pianos". 
:  ballet "The Seasons" 
: very early (1930's ?) unaccompanied clarinet sonat

I was going to suggest "The Seasons" also.

I would like to say that I played portions of
"The Perilous Night" in church and people loved it (for
prepared piano, BTW) although I wouldn't say it qualifies as a
a "bunny."  (Perhaps if one thought of it as a "percussion
ensemble in a box" -- the original purpose of the prepared piano
anyway -- in which case it is, compositionally, quite tame.)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: so-so opera / great recording?
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:22:38 GMT

One topic that has come up from time in chat with friends are the
"fringe" operas -- the ones nobody thinks of as great (e.g., not
Pfitzner's Palestrina, which has a devoted German following), the ones
that are pleasant entertainment in a good production -- which are a
special treat on records because their one recording (or let's say one
among their few recordings) was oustandingly good.  It's hard to 
define the kind of thing I'm talking about, so let me give a couple 
of examples.

Weinberger: "Schwanda the Bagpiper."  We've all heard the Polka and
Fugue in concerts, but the surprise was that the whole opera is that
much fun.  The sole recording is an extremely enjoyable one, brilliant
in fact.  Heinz Wallberg conducts a cast that includes Lucia Popp,
Gwendolyn Killebrew, Siegfried Jerusalem, and Herrmann Prey.

Massenet: "La Navarraise."  This is Massenet's verismo opera, a one-act
shocker set on a battlefield.  Grisly and contrived, but effective in a
performance that means it (Emma Calve used to make quite a splash with
it).  Amazingly enough, CBS made such a performance:  Antonio de Almeida
led a cast starring Alain Vanzo, some less-known French singers, and
most surprisingly Lucia Popp.  You'd never think of her for an earthy
French heroine, but my word she got into this role; she's seldom sounded
so utterly committed to anything.  An electrifying recording.  (As if to
prove the point, RCA shortly afterwards issued its own recording, with
arguably more correct casting; Marilyn Horne for example.  But it didn't
compare at any point, and most importantly sounded like a studio job,
which the CBS definitely doesn't.)

Those are my examples.  Does anyone have more in this category?

Jon Alan Conrad
From: rob@cs.man.ac.uk (Robert Marshall)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Schoeck
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:21:45 GMT
Reply-To: rajm@cs.man.ac.uk
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
In-reply-to: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU's message of 31 Aug 92 19:38:45 GMT
Cc: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)

> On 31 Aug 92 19:38:45 GMT, spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) said:

sg> Anyone heard of the composer Schoeck?

As Chris Brewster says, Schoeck was Swiss and lived c1870-c1954. He
was principally a composer of song cycles rather in the late romantic
mode. (Recommend Derek Puffitt's book on the cycles).  Probably the
best is Lebendig Begraben (Buried Alive) which was recorded by
Fischer-Dieskau, not sure if it's still available. Recordings are
generally very hard to come by. Settings of Morike, Eichendorff, you
get the general idea.

A throw back but very enjoyable, Puffitt's book starts with an
enthousiastic review by James Joyce(!)

Robert
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert A.J.Marshall,		EMAIL: rmarshall@cs.man.ac.uk
Room 3.08, IT Building, Department of Computer Science,
University of Manchester, Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K.
Tel: (+44) 61-275 6269          Fax: (+44) 61-275 6280
------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: records-database
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:37:40 GMT

My tuppence worth derives from a thesis I wrote called "Bibliographic
control of early operatic sound recordings"[np], wherein I identified 24
points of reference necessarry to identify uniquely a single instance of
a recorded musical event.

I use a relational database that I have written myself, which I
developed as part of the thingy itself.

I use related files with key fields, and a couple of Look-up tables.

I use: 

1) Composer file - with name, pseudonym, country, dates etc. A short
   version of the composers names links to

2) Opus file - with the pieces listed. (I used to have a daughter file
   called subpiece, which avoided the repetition involved in relisting
  "Don Giovanni" for every aria, but it was messy, and I allowed this
  much redundancy). Each sub-piece/piece listing has a unique number to
  refer to the

3) Recording file - with all the serial numbers and media descriptions
each recording has a unique number which relates to a

4) Link file for artists v. recordings which links to

5) Artists file, with full details of artists.

I know that this is an extremely complicated way of doing things, but
I built it this way for the purpose mentioned, and having typed it in, and
having got this far, it's incredibly easy to accession, and access. 

Diarmuid.

PS - I would hesitate before recommending this course of action to anyone -
wondering whether or not to record the names of the second violinist or
leader of the orchestra etc. is really tedious. It benefits when you can
plot the carreer path of minor musicians, or identify the 78's on which 
Melba played piano.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Korngold
In-reply-to: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA's message of Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:00:17 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Sep2.180017.15220@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:44:41 CDT

Deryk Barker writes:

   [Korngold] wroted damned good film music, and maybe he
   actually did find his forte in Hollywood.

As I understand it, he was not just *good*; he essentially invented
the whole technique of film scoring.  Maybe Bob K. can fill this in.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com

  
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:11882 rec.music.cd:6125 misc.wanted:8003
From: bhaskar@linus.umd.edu (S. K. Bhaskar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.cd,misc.wanted
Subject: WANTED: 1 CD from the VPO 150'th anniv. set from DG.
Keywords: VPO, DG
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:21:28 GMT
Distribution: na



I am looking for a single CD from the 11 CD set issued by DG to commemorate
the 150'th anniversary of the Vienna Philharmonic. I cannot afford to buy the
whole set just for the sake of getting this one CD. I am hoping that someone
out there has obtained this set and would not mind parting with the one CD
that I seek. Please note that it is the DG set that is being referred to; I
believe that London (Decca) has also come out with its own set, but that is
not of any interest to me.

I will pay any reasonable amount in compensation.

If you are interested, please reply and I will give you particulars.

Thanks,
Bhaskar
(bhaskar@linus.umd.edu)

P.S. Yes, I have checked thoroughly and the CD is not available by itself.
     And all the local used CD stores drew blanks on this request.
From: maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Manners, children please...
Date: 25 Aug 1992 23:20:31 GMT
Organization: CS Division, UC Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahogany.cs.berkeley.edu

Diarmuid, your original phrase was

|> ...now may I politely and with respect due to the passing of a great man
|> ask: in what compositions did Cage purport to be writing music that
|> could be evaluated outside of the bounds of his aesthetic?

Looking over your later answer, I now seriously wonder whether you
meant, "Did he ever write music that would be enjoyed by the people
who don't enjoy his music"?  I hope you meant something at least
potentially answerable with Yes...

	Vance
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:18:58 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Aug28.165512.10137@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
> 
> Amen.  I first learned to love opera through an English-language
> production of _The Marriage of Figaro_ at the Santa Fe Opera in 1972,
> with Catherine Malfitano and the late Donald Gramm.  No doubt the
> original languages are preferable if you understand them, but a
> translated opera is better than an incomprehensible one, and Mozart
> seems to translate pretty well.  Even though I understand Italian a
> lot better than I did twenty years ago, "Il birbo Figaro vinto sara'"
> still has less punch for me than the appropriately silly line "As for
> that Figaro, I'll cook his goose".  Operas in translation make the
> experience much more enjoyable for that large proportion of most
> audiences who will not bother to study the libretto beforehand.

Unfortunately the cadences of English, which has many words whose stress falls
on the last syllable do not fit at all well with music written for French,
German and Italian, all of which have a high proportion of feminine endings.
For an example of what bad translation can do to excellent music, you only have
to look at some of the translated editions of the music of Tallis and Byrd. One
glorious example comes from a translation of the Mozart Requiem: "Hark! The
trumpet sounds appalling!". I know many translators can do better than that,
but it is an uphill struggle. 
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Last Night of the Proms / words
Date: 26 Aug 92 19:59:59 GMT
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston

>
>Why shouldn't Britain as a whole be permitted a bit of
>nationalistic nonsense occasionally? The Last Night is a pretty harmless
>event, even if the audience does have a substantial moronic contingent.
>
>Martin Watts.

And I was going to be polite and merely refer to them as Young Conservatives...

Bill


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Candide broadcast
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:49:31 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep1143651@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>Tonight, the Arts & Entertainment cable channel will broadcast
>Bernstein's Candide.  This is with the London Symphony.  What version is
>this?  

Don't get me started....  (Read my article in the newest Opera
Quarterly, where I give a history *plug*plug*.)

>Is it the one that was on PBS a few years ago?  

No, thank goodness.

>Or the revision of the recast improved revised revision?

That's it.  The composer's last revised version, conducted by him.  This
London concert (1989) immediately preceded the recording that came out
on DG, and has the same participants.  Almost everybody had colds, but
the performance is by and large better than the DG one (I should say the
audio one; this concert is out on DG video).  In particular, June
Anderson sings in tune this time.  And Adolph Green doesn't even pretend
to try to sing his high notes in "Dear Boy"; they make a gag out of Kurt
Ollmann supplying them for him.

The narration is supplied by various soloists in turn, and Lenny turns
around to fill us in from time to time too.  He probably does too much,
but now that he's gone it becomes touching rather than bothersome.
Anyway, the concert is definitely worth seeing.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical