From: aref@Tehran.Stanford.EDU (Modda'iyeh har hAzer va Vakileh har ghAyeb)
Subject: Fundamentals WUZ Re: More questions for Anwar Saleh
Organization: VezArateh Addliyyeh 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:50:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.174419.5170@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> eshghi@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com
(Kave Eshghi) writes:
>>

<condomology deleted>

>>
>> If you find the above questions ridiculus, as I do, then refer to
>> your Islamic teachings as discussed in "hallol_ma'sAel".
>>
>>-Ahmad AghA
>
>In case you think this is funny, let me enlighten you: 

In case you noticed, he does say that he finds the above mentioned
questions/concepts ridiculous, not funny. Although I find them to be
the source for many good jokes. If you have ever looked into these
"hallol-masAel's" you will see his point too. Unless you are a firm 
believer in the above concepts, in which case I apologize for being
so forward, but I think your beliefs are ridiculous. 

>what you are
>doing is providing grist for the mill of all the 'trendy' racists who
>think Muslims are a bunch of fanatical half wits, to be forever kept
>in check by force.

Are they not "a bunch of fanatical half wits"? Let me rephrase that. As
with any other belief/religion/ideology/etc. there are people whose
personal lives is based on certain guidelines and structure as defined
by their belief/religion/etc. They adhere to those while refraining from
imposing them on others. More power to those people. HOWEVER, from a 
pragmatic standpoint, the present "Islamic" governments and rulers
are "a bunch of fanatical half wits", not because of their belief
or claimed belief in Islam, but because of their actions. I am tired
of forcing myself to believe that "Islam is good, Islam is this, Islam
is that. It is just that some believers because of whatever reason, commit
acts or do things that are un- or anti- Islamic." Nonesense. From a 
practical perspective it does not matter what Islam says or preaches.
What matters is the lives and faiths that are affected by the Islamic
governments, etc. I believe there is a lot of value in Islamic teachings,
or in those of other religions for that matter, but when brought out
into the society, the human implementors of the religion(s) royally screw
up. Case in point: VelAyateh gerAmi, Iran. When and where did Jesus preach
that the religious leader should live a high class life such as the Pope
does, while there are hungry Christians/Catholics scrambling for food
just to ensure an additional day of life??

In a way it is like saying Marxism-Leninism is good. Maybe theoretically
it is wonderful. But you can't show me a single society who has benefitted
from Marxism-Leninism. 


>Let me remind you that making fun of people's
>beliefs is the first step to treating them as subhumans who can not be
>trusted with control of their own lives.

He is entitled to his opinions. Go ahead. You can make fun of his beliefs
too. Not agreeing with someone has nothing to do with treating them as
sub-humans blah blah. Everyone has a right to their belief. This is nothing
personal. Please don't take it that way. Many people make fun of my beliefs.
That's quite allright. As long as they respect my right to have those 
beliefs, it is OK. I might or might not choose to ridicule their
beliefs but I will sure as hell respect their right to live, have those
beliefs and so on. And they sure as hell can do with their lives whatever
they please. That's their business.

And come to think of it, the people running the country of Iran can not
be trusted with the control of the country. Look at the long list of
accomplishments. War, the dead, the handicapped people from the war, the
refugees, the jobless, the ruins (cities) of KhoozestAn, ... The problem
is within. The problem is with us. We have to change. We have to clean
up our act. There are too many wonderful aspects to our culture to name,
but in this day and age and in this world, we have goofed up. As individuals
we do very well. As a Nation, we *WERE* a superpower (that is open to debate
too, but let's just assume so for now), but now, we are a total disaster. 


>In case you are so blinded by hatred that you cannot see the obvious,
>remember this: if and when the US decides to bomb the hell out of
>Iran, they will be using the kind of imagery and that you have provided
>to justify their act: these were a bunch of camel fucking animals anyway.

Ahmad AghA's haggle with our resident HezbollAhi's has nothing to do with
the US bombing Iran or whomever. Bombing/killing innocent civilians is 
wrong, regardless of their opinions/beliefs. If anybody, it has always
been the Iranian gov'ts for the past thousands of years 
(as well as the present) who have always 
believed that if someone does not share their viewpoint, their elimination
is justified. What Iranian ruler has ever been fair??? When in our history
have people been able to voice their opinions without getting somehow
punished for it (with the exception of the several months immediately
after the revolution, which was a total chaos and helter-skelter)??
In school they taught us "AnooshirvAneh dAd-gar". What a joke. They
said "shAh Abbas was great"; nobody mentioned the "sikheh dAgh" which he
used to poke his opponents' eyes out. They said "ShAhanshAh is AryAmehr".
hahaha. And then it was "EsteghlAl, AzAdi, jomhooriyeh eslAmi". And of
course anything that ever goes wrong, it is the CIA's fault or Intelligent
Service's fault or Mossad had a hand in it or no, it is "tablighAteh BBC"!
As we all know, "goftA zeh keh nAlim, keh az mAst keh bar mAst". No foreigner
has done to Iran what Iranians themselves have done. 

>
>Shame on you.
>
>Mash Bagher

No Mashti joon. Shame on you. Are you afraid of telling/hearing the truth? 
As a participant in an Iranian Affairs' conference put it, we have lived with
3000 years of lies. It is enough. The sad reality is that we have simply
screwed up. Maybe it is not your fault. Maybe it is not my fault. Maybe it
is. Who knows. What we *DO* know is that we have a messed up country. Is
it Nassereddin ShAh's fault? Is it Mohammad RezA's fault? Is it Khomeini's
fault?? EITHER WAY, the end result is what we can see nowadays. The first
steps to solving a problem are REALIZING, UNDERSTANDING and ADMITTING the
problem. We are still haggling over "my belief is better than yours"
and consequently "if I have the gun I will shoot you first because I know
you will shoot me if you have it". That is how that country works. Disgaree?
Fine. Give me examples to the contrary.

I have an eerie feeling that I have a zillion flames coming my way.
Oh well .... 

Aref