From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: "Caucasian" vs "White" (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:51:27 GMT
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.

In article <4896@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira) writes:
>In article <MDAY.92Aug17105442@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu> mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:
>> [Ron writes:]
>>>My grounds for "correct" usage are simple. Using the word "caucasian" as 
>>>a synonym for white is AMBIGUOUS. Why use an ambiguous term?
>>>Maybe you like ambiguous terms? Maybe you like to cloud simple issues?
>>>
>>Y'know, you're the only person who's written (repeatedly) arguing that
>>"caucasian is not the same as white".  Has it occurred to you that
>>maybe, just maybe, it doesn't bother most people?  Perhaps it's time
>>to drop your private crusade to get everyone on this group to use
>>words "right" (i.e. the way you think they should be used)?  Jeez, you
>>are really being a pain in the neck.  

You know Ron, I hate to say this, but I agree.

>I'm glad I could oblige and be such a pain in the neck for you. You're 
>obviously insensitive.

Maybe.  And maybe I belong in that category too.  But it could also be that
Mark (and others) are simply accepting of the fact that *in the US*, many,
many, many people use the terms "Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms.  Just
like they use "Asian" and "Oriental" or "Black" and "African American" as
synonymns.  For goodness sake, I know for a fact this is true.  And I don't
want to turn scaa into a forum where all we discuss is term usage and why
"Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" and "Oriental" and "Asian" and "black" and
"white" and "red" and "yellow" and all those other terms are incorrect and
AMBIGUOUS.  Because I could show you a reason why every single term I've
mentioned above is incorrect.  But we do use those incorrect, AMBIGUOUS
terms, don't we?  Of course we do.  Why?  So that the majority of others
can understand to a reasonable degre what we're saying.

Look, I might accede to your wishes and stop using the term "Caucasian" when
I really mean white, but then you'd better realize that the next step will
be for somebody else to object to the term "white" to describe white people,
either because white people other than Queen Elizabeth really aren't that
color or else because some white person will take offense ("we don't call
you people yellow, do we?").  And then what do we do?  What term are we
supposed to use then?  European American?  What if I want to include Aussies
or white people from Asia?  See what I mean?

The truth is, a lot of times I use the term "Caucasian" even when I mean
"white" because saying "white" over and over sounds repetitive and even
sometimes impolite.  Caucasian seems like a slightly more generic and neutral-
connonation term.  I sure don't do it to piss you or other IAs off.

>The fact that it doesn't bother people of "East Asian" descent and whites,
>does not mean that it should not bother me.

OK, but then realize that using the term "White" exclusively may also piss
off some other newcomer then.  So what are we supposed to do?  What if *I*
objected to the term "Asian male," instead preferring the term "Stud God."
:-)  Do you expect yourself and everybody else to change your usage just to
suit me?

I'd really buy into your theory more if you could convince me that a large
number of people in this country (Desi or otherwise) other than yourself
are offended by the use of "Caucasian" as a synonym for "White."  I agree
with Mark, you are a one-man crusade here.

>>After all this is S.C.Asian.American, is it not? Obviously if you want to
>>be an ignoramous and exclude peoples of South Asian descent, that's this
>>newsgroup's prerogative. I don't believe that is the intent of the majority.

How are we excluding people of South Asian descent by using the terms
"Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms?  If I say CM or CF, that means nobody
of South Asian descent is welcome here?

[From an old article of Ron's:]

>|Note that I'm a product of the much maligned U.S. public school system in 
>|white middle class suburbia, and I learned all of this there.

Then that alone almost makes me want to tell you stop SHOUTING your personal
view of what each term means as if it's something God wrote on stone tablets.
For heaven's sake, your own definition is as colored with biases as is any of
ours.  What if I learned something different from my own white hick-town
public school I grew up in?  What makes your school definition any more
"correct" than mine?

Ron, I also grew up in US public (and private) schools.  I watch a lot of
US TV and read a lot of US newspapers and magazines.  And I swear to God on a
stack of Bibles that most of the time *in this country*, "Caucasian" is used
as a synonym for "White."  And since I try to write articles here in a way
that is understandable to the great majority of the average North American
populace, I don't see why I have to change my usage to suit you, who seems
to be the only one complaining about it here.  I mean, I might consider doing
it for your sake, but I don't see why I *have* to do it.

Build a consensus of more people here other than yourself, and I'll follow
suit.  I used to use the term "Black" almost exclusively ten years ago.  Now
I use "African American" and "Black" almost interchangably.  Maybe in ten
more years, I'll only use "African American."  Or maybe I'll be using an
entirely different term.  But I'll do so because a consensus was reached
by many, not because one person shouted repeatedly on USENET.

>Y'know you sound like one of those people who say that just because a minority
>of people find a term offensive, it doesn't really matter. Boy that sounds 
>like a constructive way to diversify society.

No, all it means is that a whole lot of people use the terms as synonyms.
That's why I don't get all that upset when people use the term "Oriental,"
although I personally prefer the term "Asian."  Because I realize that the
term "Asian" hasn't reached a wide enough consensus.  That's why I do get
a little (but just a little) more upset if I hear the term "Oriental" being
used *here* (scaa) rather than in the outside world.  Because *in this
newsgroup*, the term "Asian" has greater usage and consensus than in the
outside world.

I know you think this has to do with being insensitive, but it really doesn't
to me.  All it has to do with using terms the way most others understand them.

>I'm also not the only one who has written that equating white with caucasian
>is incorrect. Read some of the corroborating posts.

Those corroborating posts only mention that the word "Caucasian" has a long
and confused etymology.  There are also others who would argue with you that
the word "Caucasian" shouldn't include either American Whites or Asian Indians.
What do you say to that?  Tim has pointed out that "Caucasian" originally
referred to people living in some small little area in Asia or Europe (I
can't even remember).  So does that mean we aren't free now to use the term
"Caucasian" even for White people OR Asian Indians, much less both?

Ron, yours are the only posts stating with so much emphasis and VOLUME that
the use of the terms "Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms is WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG.  You're the only one.  Sorry, but it takes more than one to sway me.

>>>No, I haven't been reading scaa very long. I'm just finding out
>>>that people don't like to be called orientals, which I will stop doing
>>>from now on. 

My mom and dad and a whole lot of other people I know still use that term.
That's why I don't get too upset over it if people use it.  In scaa and in
more "activist" or "aware" type of places, I've noticed the term "Asian" is
much preferred.  So yes, in an environment like that, I would like to see
others using the preferred term of choice.

Got that?  In this newsgroup, using Asian is probably preferred.  Around my
parents, use either term (or use only Oriental).  Around me only, take your
pick.  Simple, isn't it?  That's the way I use terms.  I try to find out the
preferred term FOR THE ENVIRONMENT I'M IN, and I stick to them, until the
*consensus* of the usage changes.

Until you started complaining about it, the consensus usage IN THIS NEWSGROUP
was to use "Caucasian" as a synonym for "white," hence terms like CM, CF, etc.
There have been hundreds upon hundreds of posts where people have used terms
like AF/CM, AM/CF, BM/CF, etc etc.  There's a long history in this newsgroup
of using those terms (CM and CF) synonymously with white men and women.  So
it's awkward as hell now to ask everybody to stop using those terms we're all
so familar with just to suit you.  I think you're being overbearing here.

>>I love it.  Here's a guy who reads scaa for a little while (not even
>>long enough to figure out that Americans of East Asian Ancestry don't
>>like being called "orientals") and he decides that he's going to
>>correct our vocabulary, because we're such a bunch of ignorant yobs.
>>Way to go, guy.  
>
>That's why I joined this group, guy. To learn about and learn to be sensitive 
>to other "Asian Americans". Obviously you don't have the same intent. I am a 
>newcomer, which in your view means that I should be excluded from any input
>on your sacred "vocabulary." Excuse me for being so ignorant and voicing my
>ideas in YOUR FORUM. You are not capable of allowing yourself and your
>vocabulary to grow.

No, your input is fine.  But I don't see why *you alone* should have veto
power over the use of "Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms.

You're just one person.  What if you're wrong?  Then we went through all this
hassle just to accomodate a person who turned out to be wrong in the end?

Now, the use of the term "Oriental" IN THIS NEWSGROUP as a synonym for
"Asian" is not quite comparable because there's a greater consensus here
(although certainly not 100%) for the usage of the term "Asian."  In other
words, it's not just one person who'll get miffed if you start using
"Oriental" instead of "Asian" here.  Try it if you don't believe me; go count
the number of responses to the last guy who started the ORIENTALS???? thread.

But if it *were* just one person, why should the rest of the group stop using
terms they've used all along just to suit that one person?

I really hate having to give up the terms CM and CF, which I've used ten
million times in the past to zero objection from anybody.  But we'll see
how this works out.  If I still see you as the lone objector later (i.e.
you've built no consensus), I will not give up those terms.  If there's a
consensus against it, I'll oblige.  But I don't see why I should accept
ONE person's views as THE WAY.

Jim