HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Bi/Pan Sexuality and the New Aeon from the Orgone Committee
Date: 2 Jan 93 06:04:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan01.012549.5874@uumeme.chi.il.us>, sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley) writes...
>In article <Leo_Sacher.039r@kumear.apana.org.au> Leo_Sacher@kumear.apana.org.au (Leo Sacher) writes:
>>This article was interesting but says nothing about other sexual minorites
>>such as sadomasochists. Liber Null covers the magical implications of S/M,
>>in that it is against trying to experience only one half of pleasure/pain
>>or any other duality. It also covers pain as a method of acheiving
>>one-pointedness. Does Orgone or any other group represented here have
>>anything to say on the subject?

>What does it matter if I like your sexuality, or you like mine? It doesn't
>matter, quite simply. Be yourself regardless of where you are.

Agreed.

I found a lot to think about in this article, mainly in regard to 
the importance of balancing the yin and yang aspects of one's 
personality, which does not IMO *require* bisexuality.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 02:15:54 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b26

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> Well, I wouldn't go that far. However, it appears that the all-abiding 
> evil deity is a Christian invention. 

It's not even that.  It's actually more of a Persian invention, coming to 
Christianity through the Gnostics.  And despite its attempts to resist, the 
early Christian church ended up absorbing a fair number of Gnostic ideas, 
especially ones concerning good & evil, and whether or not the earth is 
fundamentally an evil place.  Unfortunately, while the older branches of 
Christianity have pretty much shaken this off, this thought-virus keeps 
popping up again in newer sects.  Presumably this is because it's such an 
attractively simple idea, and lets people pretend that they don't have to 
grapple with all-to-complex reality.



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Charter for the Neo-Thelemoid Clique
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:44:51 GMT

 Charter of the Neo-Thelemoid Clique

The structure of the Neo-Thelemoid Clique is identical to that of
the Orgone Committee Charter Except in the following:

A. You must accept the Book of the Law.

B. The Circle Titles are: Man of Earth, Lover, Hermit.

C. For the Yellow Circle Initiation and Ordeal you must take Wine
and/or Strange Drugs as a part of it to enter.

D. There is a Ruling Body of the Council of Hermits which is the
absolute governing body. All initiates must acknowledge Their
Apostolic Succession from Nothing, Nothing at all except the Will
of the Council of Hermits to administer and the Will of the
initiates of the lower degrees not to stop them from administering,
disputes in this case to be settled by whatever means the parties
Will. 

E. We recognize the following as specialized factions within our
clique, and The Council of Hermits has authorized them to operate
independently of our administration according to the wills of the
members of these organizations: The Bavarian Illuminati, Knights
of Malta, The Unilateral Commission, The Inner Party, The Cult of
Beh-oh-zod-oh, O.T.O., A.A (all of the Six different A.A.s we have
communicated with.), Meta-Agnostics, A.M.O.R.C., S.O.T.O., Kenneth
Grant's O.T.O., The College of Thelema, The Church of Scientology,
H.O.L.G., The Order of the O.K., L.E.L., and two others that wish
to be anonymous.

F. Our first priority as an organization is to cultivate and
establish the New Aeon. The New Aeon is, quite simply, bigger than
Thelema, bigger than Liber Al, bigger than Crowley, bigger than any
of the growing numbers of Thelemic organizations, in fact bigger
than anything other than the human species itself, whose curerent
evolutionary phase the New Aeon is a metaphor and name for.

G. Our second priority as an organization is to apotheosize
archetypes other than Crowley to embody the New Aeon. The necessity
of this is clear in the face of the clear fact that Uncle Al
was not born after 1904!

H. Our other priorities are written and concealed in Liber Al Vel
Legis, Chaps 1 to 3 in the facsimile of the original writing at the
back of each edition.

Interested in communicating? Write to: Orgone Committee P.O. Box
614 Vanbrunt Station Brooklyn, NY 11215

SEX IS PEACE
TRUE WILL NOT SLAVERY
CONCIOUSNESS IS STRENGTH
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:33:44 GMT

sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley) writes:

... delided ...

: The only downfall of christianity as a whole is that it is WRONG. Yes, there
: are a few groups I have no problem with.. But, on the average, they all tend
: to be conformity traps(I don't need to be a satanist to know that). 

Sean - you sound just like a fundamentalist preacher, with blinders on,
pounding on his holy text and damning those of other faiths. When will
people learn - you cannot expect to be tolerated by the Christians, until
you are willing to tolerate them. That does not mean that you have to
associate with those you do not like, nor do you have to believe the same
things they do.  However, since you are not omnipotent, I would suggest
that you have no more idea of the "truth" than I do.

... delided ...

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 05:06:45 GMT

joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
: 
: In article <1992Dec25.093444.14720@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com 
: (bill nelson) writes:
: 
: >   As far as I know - the pentagram, whether inverted or not, was claimed to 
: >   be an evil symbol by the Christians. 
: 
: wrong. it the upright pentagram was used as a christian symbol.

Probably still is - by some of the Christian sects. Others feel that it is
evil - regardless of "orientation".

Bill
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com (Jason Pascucci)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: _Book Four_ Part 4
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:33:29 GMT
Organization: Prime Computer R&D

It's been my opinion that he was hedging Part 4. I got
the impression from part 1 through 3 that part 4 would
be a little less theleme-centric than simply a commentary
on the L.L.. I kind of envisioned a modernized Golden Bough-like
book. 

I feel that the function of Mysticism can stand up to the same
type of analysis that AC used in Book 4 1-2, a little
less so in 3. Perhaps he was intending on a 
'Mysticism in Theory and Practice', but honestly, I don't
think that the commentaries on L.L. are enough...and
neither, one might suspect, did Uncle Al. 

You might also note I (perhaps significantly) tend not to 
refer the the Book of the Law as Liber Al vel Legis,
but simply Liber Legis. For some reason, I never
think in those word...which leads me to suspect there
is something 'going on...'. :)

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Astral Meeting Place for the Orgone Committee
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:41:53 GMT

 Orgone Committee Astral Meeting Spot

 Image: A white round building, 18 feet in diameter, 18 feet tall with a
dome roof of the same white seamless stone, and a gold door. Set above
the gold door in the stone is a Sigil. The building is in the center of
an island, oval shaped 1800 by 2700 feet, and covered by trees mostly,
except for a clearing of 40 feet on each side of the building. The
island is slightly rounded towards the center. It is in the middle of a
deep mountain lake (tarn) the waters of which are black and often mirror
still. The lake is an almost perfect circle set at the apex of a vast
foreboding mountain that was once a volcano. The skies are usually blue
but there is often no sun.

 The time for the meetings for this Astral Clubhouse when all or most
members can be expected to be projecting there varies.

Communicate with the Founding Committee to find out the current
schedule. Write to: Dream Subcommittee c/o Orgone Committee PO Box 614
Vanbrunt Station, Brooklyn NY 11215

 There are a number of ways to test if you have actually been astrally
projecting, or imaginatively projecting:

 1. While you feel yourself to be there, to try to reshape the image you
are seeing; if you can, you are imagining; if you can't, it is most
likely that you are projecting.

  2. Write to Founding Orgone Committee concerning any other features on
the island you see/hear/feel/smell especially:

 a: The Sigil over the Gold Door

 b: Wether you are able to gain entrance to the Island, or Building at
all, and if you were able to enter the Building, what was inside.

 c: Who, if anyone else, you met on the island.

 d. What else of interest, if anything, did you sense on the island.

 We would be curious to hear from you what results you get in any case,
and every response will be answered. Please bear in mind, though, that
you need to keep track of the facts - when, where, how, who, etc. in
order for us to be able to make real use of what you send us.

By William Hunter (Yellow Circle)

SEX IS PEACE
TRUE WILL NOT SLAVERY
CONCIOUSNESS IS STRENGTH
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: The Yew Working, another runic ritual
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:36:59 GMT

In article <BzJprr.7yx@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.073641.12084@u.washington.edu> mimir@carson.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>>
>> The Yew Working
>>
>> spring; visualize this as pitch black and then intone the formula
>> uuuuuuuuuuuu. As this force rises from the center of the Earth and
>>
>> head. Visualize the zone of white energy of infinite expanse, intoning
>> the vocalic formula aaaaaaaaaaaa as this force flows from a wide
>>
>> becoming deep blue as you intone the vocalic formula iiiiiiiiiiii and
>>
>> During this process, intone the vocalic formula eeeeeeeeeeee. Once this
>> Intone the vocalic formula oooooooooooo during this process.
>>
>> structure with the vocalic formula eeeeeeeeeeee (a lax neutral vowel
>> sound during which all the muscles of the mouth as relaxed). The energy

>Are these pure vowel sounds? That is, in order, oo ah ee ay oh ay?
>Or standard American:  you ay eye ee oh ee?

 The pure ones.

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:55:08 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b26

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> Unfortunately, humanity seems to have this overwhelming urge to divide 
> the world into us/them, good/bad, nice/evil, lawful/unlawful, black/
> white, male/female, sweet/sour etc. We seem to be unable to admit that 
> all such terms are relative - not absolute. 

Well, human beings seem "programmed" to categorize their perceptions, from 
the lowest levels on up.  And, it must be said, this is actually a useful 
thing to do in most circumstances.  The problem comes when people take 
perfectly good rules of thumb--that is to say, descriptive generalizations--
and decide that they are either prescriptive, or worse yet constitute reality 
instead of just modelling it.

Now, this confusion of the model with reality is understandable, since (at 
least in most states of consciousness) the models are all we get to interact 
with.  However, a large part of magickal training (and other related 
disciplines, such as psychotherapy, or in fact advanced study in any field) 
is learning to recognize the models you are using, their limits, and more 
useful alternatives.

Making distinctions is not a problem in and of itself, most of the time--it's 
forgetting who is making them that gets people in trouble :).  Just because a 
term is relative (or, as I would rather say, "subjective") does not mean it 
is not useful over some domain.



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Hello
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:40:31 GMT


In article <BzL6o7.Gpy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu 
(B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>   harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy)  writes:

>   >I would love to learn more about 'Magick', partly for the power trip 
					       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   >and, well, I think that it calls to me. I say think because it just 
>   >might be an extension of a desire for power ect.
			       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Harish, magic is not about power-tripping.  If you want real power over 
>   people, go into politics.

which is, of course, a perfectly good magickal art.

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: MINDWALKING Buddhists, oh my!
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:24:00 +0000


For what its worth, I think Bohm's ideas can be summarised VERY 
crudely thuswise:-


IF you want a deterministic universe AND you want a unified theory of 
physics THEN you have to postulate some form of underlying structure 
which has the property that 'physical reality' is merely a minor part 
of a larger whole. Bohm gave some braod outlines as to the sort of 
structure that would be required to explain quantum effects.

That is, the assumptions that underly conventional physics lead to an 
extrordinarily complex and unusual view of time space and matter if 
taken to their LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS.

You may either deduce from that that the world is indeed a strange 
and mysterious place, or if you are more of the Occam persuasion, 
that the underlying assumptions of conventional physics are 
inappropriate tools for subatomic analysis.

:-)
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:15:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan03.043157.10070@rose.com>, mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka) writes...
> 
> 
>But what the author was postulating was that the rites used by this sect
>are a form of mind control over the members....not in keeping with any
>set of philosophy or codes.
> 

A different story entirely.  But this was not made clear in the 
original post.

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 09:59:56 GMT

In article <JOSHUA.92Dec24014950@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>he didn't steal it. he hired crowley to write up some rituals etc for him.
>some of "gardner's" rituals contain passages in enochian, which are in 
>crowley's unmistakable 'self-pronouncing' spelling (ie, the enochian word
>'vorsg' (properly pronounced, approximately, "vorsg") is spelled 'vaoresaji'
>or something similar. this, by the way, is taken from s. l. mcgregor-mathers
>guidelines to pronouncing enochian). crowley was rather penurious in his later
>years.

 The whole bit about Gardner hiring Crowley is BS and well known as such.
Perhaps I should put a long article researched by a Thelemite on the
subject onto slopoke. Gardner obviously drew from the Key of Solomon but
Crowley didn't write anything for Gardner. I'm a Gardnerian initiate and
I've also read Crowley so I think I would know.

Wassail,
Grendel
From: Leo_Sacher@kumear.apana.org.au (Leo Sacher)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Bi/Pan Sexuality and the New Aeon from the Orgone Committee
Distribution: world
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:07:28 EST
Organization: The DUNGEON BBS

This article was interesting but says nothing about other sexual minorites
such as sadomasochists. Liber Null covers the magical implications of S/M,
in that it is against trying to experience only one half of pleasure/pain
or any other duality. It also covers pain as a method of acheiving
one-pointedness. Does Orgone or any other group represented here have
anything to say on the subject?

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo_Sacher@kumear.apana.org.au - Mmmm that hurts so good!    :-)       |
|            The Dungeon, Newcastle NSW, Australia.                      |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 08:51:38 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec17.122303.2554@dct.ac.uk>

9212.23 e.v. [Happy KAos Day!]


Alan Greig writes:

In article <1992Dec16.064254.17948@primerd.prime.com>, jasonp@bungie.Prime.com 
(Jason Pascucci) writes:

> I've been thinking about it, and it has recently occured
> to me that we may very well have enough people to get
> a 'real' newsgroup out on the net. This will increase
> our readership 10 fold, at least, give access to
> our resources to non-altgroup-carrying sites.

How on earth do you work that out? In reality most sites take alt
groups and some of these groups are among the most read on the net.

[Yeah, Jason, where did you get this '10-fold' figure.]

From the latest arbitron listing:

...
   1 180000  5379   90%     1    12.1   100%  0.00  10.9%  news.announce.newuse
rs 
   2 170000  4910   83%  1226  1401.3    28%  0.01  10.0%  misc.forsale 
   3 170000  4862   84%   871  1762.7    20%  0.02   9.9%  misc.jobs.offered 
   4 140000  4235   67%  2014  4176.9    51%  0.04   8.6%  alt.sex 
...
...
Note that the fourth most read group is an alt.group.
...
...
 778  15000   445   59%   315   840.0     2%  0.06   0.9%  alt.magick 
...

Possibly the propagation % is a little on the low side for an average
alt group but it still reaches 60% of *all* usenet sites. It might
be worth sending a newgroup for alt.magick and prompt a few more sysadmins
to create it but that's about all.

If the propagation was increased ten fold then this would put the group
into the top five. Which it won't...


Response:

A few posts later somebody posted that this is inaccurate - that it is
not accurate except with respect to usenet sites which return ARBITRON
data and that alt groups tend to return such data (thus skewing the
figures). 

How accurate is any of this information?

Is there a more accurate way to determine readership than by using
 Arbitron data to extrapolate readership numbers?

How far OFF might these figures be?

Is there really such a 'skewing' effect or has Arbitron taken this into
 account?


Let's get to meat of the issue:

Regardless of who does and does not want this to happen, would the creation
 of misc.magick (or any alternative) really increase readership in any
 significant way?  Or would it just give us reasons to have to read
 duplicated cross-postings?


Greater readership would mean more hassles without moderation.

Is there any way to keep a lid on idiots without assigning some form of
regulator?  I.e. the patented 'Josh flame method' seems to work well,
but is it consistently reliable?  Are there less violent alternatives?


Thyagi the curious
From: oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:07:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1hqijkINNdgr@shelley.u.washington.edu>, rjb@carson.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes...
> 
>                  Magic:  White, Black, and
>
>[stuff deleted...] 
> 
>Let me take, for the sake of this train of thought, the 
>distinction between white and black to be the distinction 
>between good and evil, which in turn I want to reduce 
>(for the time being) to the distinction between two kinds 
>of actions -- in a dualistic, and even dichotomous, way.  
>Under "good" let's will group actions that one definitely 
>ought to do as well as actions that one may do or not do; 
>under "evil" let's put only those actions that one 
>definitely ought not do.
> 
>To do this of course we have to first assume that there 
>are actions (or actions-in-situations) to which "ought 
>to" and "ought not to" can be applied.  Will those who 
>aren't willing to allow for this possibility say that I 
>ought not entertain it?
> 

Your premise above I believe is true.  However, IMO it 
varies from person to person what one "ought to" or "ought not 
to" do under the same circumstances.  Everyone has a personal 
and unique internal guide, which may well conflict with dogmatic 
ideas about correct behavior.  

Discovering this guide is a great magickal adventure.

>--LeGrand

- Peggy -
From: tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (TONYA PUONCEY)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: testin' this stupid editor
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:16:00 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hail Eris 
All hail Kalliste.

Feelin' Jaded people...
a used-to-be into it probationer of the OTO, 
been wrong 5 times with the Tarot,
familiars,
cat understands most things ya tell it...
but I'm bored!

what happened?

help!!!

-t.conlon
AE
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu ( )
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:02:09 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I noticed something interesting today. The Masons use a form of multicolored
inverted pentagram. I noticed it on a car next to the traditional compass
& ruler emblem. Is there a masonic newsgroup? (I know there is a mailing list)

-Scott
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magic and Morals (was: Re: Harish)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 21:07:22 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In article <1992Dec31.195852.19954@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Scott Locklin ) writes:
>In article <1hvf0nINNk8m@uwm.edu> hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:
>>From article <1ht8lsINNbej@shelley.u.washington.edu>, by grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer):
>
>>> The mechanics of magic do not involve moral principles.  The application
>>> of magic, like any other human action, _necessarily_ involves moral
>>> principles.
>
>The probelm I have with all this (which I _do_ agree with to a certain extent)
>is the concept of "morality." Because it is inherently subjective, it ceases
>to have any useful meaning other than that it has to its user. To the NAZIs
>the "fianl solution" was the moral thing to do in order to save humanity from
>inferior genetics. There is no way of "prooving" their morality is inferior
>to ours other than brute force. Too many variables...


I ain't arguing.  The point is that an approach to action based on moral
principles -- personally chosen and, yes, subjective -- has certain 
advantages over, say, pure whim, or simple moment-by-moment selfishness.   
Similarly, there's a certain value in having an agreed-upon moral
standard within a group, however arbitrary, if only to provide some 
kind of basis for cooperation in the face of an often hostile world.    


>There _is_ a sort of objective morality, or moral absolute. I adressed this 
>question before on alt.satanism. It can be described using game theory & a 
>crude form of cybernetics. I will attempt to find this article.


I'd like to see that.


-- JMG

Newsgroups: alt.magick