From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:58:38 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <71230@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
Pitts) wrote:
> In article <ksand-131092141503@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> |I oppose the way to use imagination to fix problems mentioned in the
> |Bible. This is not how the words of Jesus should be used in real life.
> 
> If you'd like to quote the points I allegedly used imagination to
> fix and explain why my statements were not correct, then we can discuss
> it, but as it stands we can't.  You vaguely assert and are not specific.

I still oppose the way all the numerous Christians are using the word
of Jesus to justify their private and collected doctrines. If you
can't cite one single line from Jesus stating something, instead using
many single extremely loosely connected ones to provide evidence, then
you are on thin ice. And it elegantly shows why we have so many
Christian sects today, as well. Too many opinions, not enough evidence.
The original church of Jerusalem was nearest the truth, and it's gone
long time ago. The burden of evidence is on you, and if you are not
specific, it's your problem, not mine of Jesus'.

> |It's not exactly a nice way to use Jesus' words to create your own
> |favourite doctrines. I don't think he would have accepted this method
> |as well.
> 
> If you would be specific, we could discuss this.

For instance, if I would write a story about a 'noble man', and 
someone would map this to something else, I would get quite mad
when someone else is twisting my own words. I'm sure Jesus would
agree on this as well. You still *haven't* shown how the 'noble
man' metaphor is mapped directly to Jesus, without using your
own imagination. Show us the words of Jesus that tells this is 
the case, and we will automatically shut up.

> |The original church was the one founded in Jerusalem. Paul got into
> |his way, and started to create his own alternate system in the land
> |of Gentiles. Ultimately the Jerusalem church withered away when the
> |second coming never happened, and the Romans crushed the Jewish
> 
> And we talk about twisting words to get your own doctrines.
> 
> If Jesus called Paul in the midst of Paul's persecution of the body
> of Christ and independently confirmed this with a vision to 
> Ananias (Acts 9), then God would have stopped Paul from creating 
> 'his own alternate system.'

It seems you really like visions, guess what, a lot of people 
have visions still today. And some of them even create new forms
of Christianity (Mormons) or new religions (Scientology). And according
to your basic belief that visions are always valid, I guess you also
support the validity of Joseph Smith, right? If not, then you are
questioning the validity of visions, including the ones you supposedly
believe in.

> |culture. Meanwhile Paul gathered more forces and took control from
> |the disciples themselves (!).
> 
> Give some references for this, please.

Read Acts.
 
> Let me ask this one more directly.  Who independently confirmed
> your fathers'cousin's visions???????  Paul's vision was independently
> confirmed.

As were Joseph Smith's. So you support mormonism now when you
were revealed, right?

Kent

It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that
virginity could be a virtue.  -- Voltaire
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
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