From: jb00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSE ANTONIO BASTO)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: E. Timor & Indonesia
Date: 17 Nov 92 01:01:51 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Nov14.215739.23764@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gas
ton Dewanto) writes:
>This is also my personal views on the situation at E. Timor and the
>Indonesia/Portugal relationships with E. Timor.
>
>In article <1992Nov15.004357.75810@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jb00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (J
OSE ANTONIO BASTO) writes:
>>
>>As a Portuguese, this subject is very important to me, and
>>unlike the Timorese, I can express my ideas freely , and I hope
>>to bring some light on the issue.
>... The rest is deleted ...
>>
>As a human being, I concern not only the E. Timorese, but also people
>from all over the world, e.g., Somalian, Afghans, Bangladesh etc. and
>I do think all of us should too.

I could not agree more!!! And I am concerned with these people and many more,
but I believe that we must focus our priorities: given that the problem of E.
Timor has been so well hidden by Indonesia, almost no coverage was given to
the issue, internationally and inside Indonesia, in 17 years of occupation.

As an example, just recall the reaction of your government to the 12 Nov 91
massacre: absolute negation, FRETILIN propaganda, and, only after realizing
that they did let get out of E. Timor a full video of the disaster,
acknowledge the incident (but always trying to minimize it).

I believe we must look for our internal problems, before raising other issues
to deviate the focus about what we are talking... By example, you could have
referred to the problem facing West Papua (renamed in 1972 to Irian Jaya)
people, but is more comfortable for you to speak about the Somalians... Lets
concentrate at the issue -> E. TIMOR.

>>
>We, the Indonesian, also concern about the East Timorese. While it may be true
>that historically E. Timor was not part of Majapahit or other kingdoms in
>Indonesia (I am not sure about this), geographically and ethnically E. Timor
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

           (my sources are external to Indonesia, but you can study the
           subject and show here your sources).

>should be part of Indonesia now. West Timor and other islands around Timor
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are part of Indonesian.Just because the Portuguesse had come before the Javanes
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where is your argument? By your point of view, Portugal should be Spanish,
because Spain is all around us... Timor is different ethnically, linguistic
and culturally from Java, and it will not be "Pancasila" that will change by
miracle thousands of years of history.

e
>came can not be accepted as a claim that they have more right about Timor.
>

Please note that NEVER put any claim for E. Timor, and it is written
in Portuguese Constitution the right of E. Timor to independence. Portugal was
the first Western country to build and Intercontinental Empire, and the last
to get out (due to the stupidity of a fascist dictator that left Portugal live
in the shadows of History for to long). All the other territories are free
country, except E. Timor, and you know well why...

>Also, the way the Portugal government left E. Timor in civil war did not
>show that they concerned about the E. Timor people. The civil war started
>when Fretilin made a coup in an attempt to control the E. Timor which
>jurisdically was a rebel against the Portugal (it seems strange to me that
>the Portugal government sill supports the Fretilin unless that the Portugal
>government did support the Fretilin coup then ). The Fretilin did that because
>they thought they would lose to other parties for he power (This is just
>my reasoning). This showed that Fretilin did not have a complete support
>from the ET people as what they say now .
>

This is the Indonesian version... In reality, APODETI, a very, very small
party, promoted by Indonesian Intelligence, made the Portuguese Military
Governor hostage, seized the Radio, and did tried to seize power, after being
evident that they will never win the elections being planned (the regional
elections gave FRETILIN an big advantage...)

After the civil war (quickly won by FRETILIN, at a cost estimated by the UN as
3000 deaths), APODETI ran away to West Timor, where to have shelter, they did
have to sign a document asking for help from Indonesian volunteers (with
uniforms and equipment so similar to ABRI, that at naked eye, you could
believe that they were Indonesian soldiers ...

If you look at UN records, you will see that:i) Portugal never did recognize
indepence to E. Timor; ii) Portugal accused FRETILIN of illegally seizing the
power; iii) Portugal still is the admnistrating power of E. Timor.

>The accusations made by the Portuguesse are based from two reasons I think.
>
>1. The Portugal government doesn't want to lose face. The way they neglected
>E. Timor and concerned more to other more resource abundant than E. Timor
>definitely is not something can be said proudly in international forum.
>They also left E. Timor in chaos, so the integration of ET to Indonesia
>was not good to them either.
>

Please note that today's regime in Portugal has nothing to do with the fascist
dictature, or with the post- Revolution (in 1974) mess that ruled my country.

I am not proud about the colonization of any country, but you should
understand that I can not judge the actions of my ancestors (even if I don't
agree with then...).
Portugal itself, had been colonized by Fenicians, Greeks,
Roman, Celtic, German tribes (the Barbarians of the 4 and 5th century B-),
Arabians, not to speak about invasions (the last one almost 175 years ago, by
Napoleon troops).
When I did refer African colonies (and I didn't point out Brasil, bigger
than USA w/o Alaska, our truly target for centuries, in terms of investment,
the others being just trading forts near the coast), was to stress that we
didn't influence that much E. Timor  (what, in my opinion, was very good for
the Timorese, better than our brothers from Angola, being traded as slaves
B-(, leaving them alone to live as always, w/o disturbance ...
Everything depend on the referential where your are measuring your dimensions:
probably the Timorese where living much better than the Portuguese people back
in Portugal (with exception of the ruling elite, the noblemen & etc...).

>2. They don't really understand the culture and the way of life from other
>ethnics. I believe this misunderstanding is also shared by other westen
>cultured people (with all my respect).
>The west thinks that everything that is best for them is also the best for
>the rest of the world. If there are freedom of speech or freedom of act or
>whatever in west countries, then there should be too in other countries.
>They fail to see that that depends on the local culture, local situation
>in each country respectively. For example, the bad roads or the uniforms
>worn by the E. Timor elementary students are used as proofs of Indonesia
>bad treatments to the ET people, while actually those conditions are
>common in other parts of Indonesia.
>

I would like to present here some light on the Portuguese act with other
people and cultures: it seems that you are confounding the Portuguese with the
Dutch or the English: actually,Portugal was a very small country (a little more
than a million people) when we start our navigation around the globe, our main
objective was to establish commercial links, and our presence was mainly a few
fortifications along the coast line to provide shelter and trading facilities
to our ships (with exception to Brasil).

We did face well established civilizations, with development in many aspects
really superior to Portugal (or west Europe, as matter of fact), like India,
China, Japan, Java, Burma, etc... It was not like the invasion by Spain of
weak Central and South America civilizations (not with the purpose of trading,
just the grasping as much gold as they could...) or the North Europe settlement
in North America.

Being so weak in numbers, we did approach other races by marriages, leaving
trace all around the world. Please compare, by example, the racism here in the
USA with Brasil, to have an idea how our culture is different from our North
neigbours... This is not a defense of Portuguese colonialism, (and I know wheel
many serious incidents involving Portuguese colonialist)
but history must be seen keeping in mind that the values in those times were
different...)

I agree absolutely with you about the understanding by the West of your
culture, your ethics, etc. I believe Indonesia is one of the most rich country
in the world with its magnificent geography , its diverse cultures, legends
and folklore.

Being an western, I find difficult to understand why you don't give the some
importance to a single human life, as we do. But, living with International
neigbours from all over the world, I can learn. We have much more in common
than differences (real differences, not form of the eyes, or color of the skin,
etc ...). We are all human beings, and WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT, you liked
it or not.

My kids play with Indonesian, Jordan, Chinese, SriLanka,etc, kids( you name it)
and we all could learn a lot from the way kids do relations between themselves.

But massacres, violations, institutionalized repression is not allowed in any
civilization, therefore your regime is being condemned all over the world for
what they are doing in E. Timor... As Portugal was accused before 1974 of
being a colonialist, now is Indonesia that is colonialist, against the will of
the Timorese.

>I want to make comments of two arguments made by the Portuguesse.
>
>1. Indonesia is accused to take E. Timor because of the oil resource in
>Timor Sea.
>I don't think that Indonesia knew there was oil resource in Timor Sea in
>1976. If we knew that, then the Portugal must have known too and they
>wouldn't abandon ET.
>Also it is Australia who gets most benefit from the oil resource, not
>Indonesia.
>

I will post a article about the Timor Gap oil reserves in a few days...

Portugal did know about E. Timor oil reserves, but you should know that
Portugal did fight a 3 fronts guerrilla war, against Freedom movements in
Guine'-Bissau, Angola and Mozambique. This movements did have active help
from Soviet Union and China, and when they started to shoot down our airplanes
with anti-aircraft missiles (with "technical volunteers" putting the missiles
to work B-(, the war was lost (as any guerrilla war with help from external
sources, something that even the USA did learn in Vietnam, and that Indonesia
could taste, if Timor had a frontier with a third country helping to get war
material from the other "superpower".

This guerrilla war lasted for more than 13 years, it was consuming our (meager)
financial resources, and our youth. It was a dirty war, no enemies to be
fought during the day, sneak attacks during the night, and the majority of the
losses for mines (not to speak about what they did to civilians, on both
sides).

E. Timor never fought the Portuguese, probably because we respected then, we
did administration through the villages chiefs, and only in Dili we had a
little more than a thousand Portuguese ...

But even if Timor was covered with gold (not to speak about some oil fields at
the bottom of the ocean) I think that the Portuguese Military Comitee ( that
ruled after the 1974 Revolution that moved out the colonialist regime) could
had send any military unit to E. Timor: the institutions were being dismantled,
the "coup d'etat" and general confusion was the order of the day, and at the
same time, the Soviet Union and the USA was trying to pull Portugal for their
side ... This was the biggest Revolution in the recent history of Portugal, and
you can believe that we had an hard time to keep Portugal as a Country (with
no killings in the process, after 48 years of living with censorship, secret
police everywhere, assassinations of opositors, unpopular wars, etc).
When more than a million of Portuguese return (the word is escape from being
massacred...) to a 9 million country, torn apart from centuries of living to
the outside than to himself, you can bet that we had more to worry than a
remote tinny island, being assured by Indonesian diplomats that no
intervention was planned, while the Generals in Jakarta keep busy training
the invasion and the Secret Service seeded dissension in the inside of
E. Timor.

About Australia, they did plan to take E.Timor after the WWII, only being
deterred because Portugal did a treaty with the USA, giving the Americans a
aerial base at the Azores islands (a very strategic archipelago in the middle
of the Atlantic, fulcral in defeating the German U-Boats and refuel of
airplanes coming from USA to Europe) against help to recover E. Timor from
the Japanese...

It is obvious that they would have more problems in negotiating with us than
with Indonesia, and they keep a large share of the oil (againstaustralian
public opinion) and Indonesia keeps the shame...

>2. The two generals that commanded the ET and the regional were fired
>because of the event. Considering their positions, going to USA for vacation
>or studying as said by some people without any military position
>can not be considered as a pleasant thing at all.

No comments: their subordinates kill more than 100 people, and they walk away
with a little tap on the back (wait and see, perhaps they will get promoted
soon, after all the publicity about will get down ...)

>.
>We are trying to build E. Timor so that the people will have better life
>the same way we do in other areas in Indonesia. It is not easy and some times
>there are people who have to sacrifice. However, in general we are improving
>reflected by the increase of our GNP per capita, our lower rate of illiteracy,
>less poor people.

Maybe E. Timorese will want more freedom, more respect for themselves than to
grow more $100 in GNP. If you really are happy with the corruption in
Indonesia, 1% of the population owning 99,9% of the land, poor people
everywhere, even in the suburbs of Jakarta (not to speak in the small islets),
if you are happy to speak "bahasar" instead of the language of your ancestors,
you are free to choose.

But, in my humble opinion, the Timorese are free to choose what they want,
trough a supervised, free referendum. If Indonesia did so well for E. Timor,
why are you afraid to do that? If the Timorese are so better now than before
1975, when the Portuguese where there, why we can see in the video of the
massacre that the demonstrators, the majority of them just kids, young people,
that always lived in an Indonesian "paradise" of development and instruction,
why did they demonstrate against the occupation? Please, don't believe in all
the doctrines disseminated by your government, go to E. Timor and find by
yourself what do they think about their situation

>
>In our development, we can not afford to have politically unstable condition,
>therefore sometimes we have to act hardly against any disturbance (I don't
>say that the shooting in Santa Cruz was deliberately done). I think other

If it wasn't deliberately done, it was very expontaneous to have companies of
soldiers to incircle a group of demonstrators and shoot without any warning,
to stab the survivors and to make disappear in mass graves already digged the
bodies... What was not deliberately done, and that I am sure, was to be
outsmarted by a reporter, that put a video of the scene in the TV's of world,
showing the true face of the Indonesian occupation of E. Timor.


>governments also do that. So there must
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So, I can kill people, because other people do so... Mr. Dewanto, is a little
difficult to not start to "flame" you about this affirmation, but that would be
very constructive, I only kindly ask you to read again what you had written,
and not assume that you represent the Indonesian majority ideas about
massacring pacif demonstrators...


>be some people who are not happy with that but nothing is perfect.
>We don't want to kill the ET people, they are our brothers like the
>rest of Indonesians. But any act to separate E. Timor from Indonesia can
>not be accepted.

Why not? Because you said so? What gives you the right to kill everybody that
don't agree with "Pancasila" (One State, One Unitary Republic in Indonesia)?
If they are your brothers, treat them like brothers, not like animals, or
third class citizens ...

>
>In my opinion, it is best for the ET people if we don't support any
>act toward ET independence. Any separatist movement will only invite
>military action and will slow down the development. I think, most
>ET people, like other people, do not really care whether they are
>Indonesia or independent as long as they can make good living.
>

Again, I must disagree with you. People do care if they live as a free man,
and maybe that was one of the reasons Timorese and Portuguese went along or
centuries quite well: If not our desire to be independent, Portugal would be
just another province of Castilla (the main kingdom of Spain). Just remember
the recent Olympic games, organized by Barcelona, and by Catalonya (NOT
Spain), and they are a province much more powerful economically than
Portugal, they an higher standard of living (materially $peaking...)but they
are not free... some of them don't like it, other, still dream of an
independent Catalonya... Not to speak about the Basc Country, that runs a
terrorist war against Madrid...

I know a few Portuguese that maintain that we would be part of the one of the
most rich countries in Europe, if we didn't fight with Spain, but cooperate and
work together for the last 8 centuries. They have the right to have an opinion
and I respect their desire to integrate with Spain...but I am sure that the
vast majority of the Portuguese would prefer stay as we are...

By the same token, maybe the Timorese just want to keep their living as they
always... they didn't attack Indonesia, they are to small to do you any harm,
so, why do Indonesia kills them, when they say : "WE JUST WANT OUR LIVING, OR
LAND BACK!"

So, it is real easy to understand: you can not decide by the Timorese, and you
can not think for them... there are many things much more important than just
development (an western standard, that is more than proved that dose not work
everywhere, even in Europe ...)
>g.dewanto
>mben/uw-m
>dewanto@cae.wisc.edu
>

Please forgive such a long posting, and my poor english (I have no time to
revise it), but I still believe that Portuguese and Indonesian can talk, in
an educated way, and that will lead to an eventual understanding of the both
sides of the question.

Jose' Basto

jb00@lehigh.edu
-- 
Jose' Barros BASTO; Address:11,Duh Dr Apt 222; BETHLEHEM, PA 18015-3732
Phone :(215)758-1846; Office:(215)758-4640;  FAX:(215)758-4886   U.S.A.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean