HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:41:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr14.214153.14107
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA

In article <1992Apr14.103022.13208@iitmax.iit.edu> 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:
>Toshi Takeuchi <tt@wag.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> First of all, why should anyone care if you attained such and such a state.
>Why should you care why somebody else cares, or why not?
>Why _generally_ prefer one thing to some other?
>[Not speeking of personal taste etc. - but I'm serious with the questions!]

Why do I care?  Well, as I stated in the quoted post, I think such
contemplation can lead people astray.

I'm trying to see why this person has interest in such questions.  I'm 
trying to understand what he or others gain from such questions like
do you think you will reach an enlightened state in this lifetime.

Since this was supposed to be a discussion, I posed the questions in my
original answer.  I got no response so I continued with my train of thought.
However, I'm still interested in the answer to the question to see what
drives such questions; I posed the question again...

>> --Comparison of experience is fine, to see if you are following the road map,
>>   but saying that you are at a certain stage may really be fooling yourself.
>Perhaps assuming there is a road map may as well be fooling yourself :-)

That's true, but many of us (including me) like to pretend we have progress
in our relationship with whatever. (thus having some map to follow)

>> P.S. We all do this.  At least I do.
>> I'm sure not perfect...
>Do you really know what perfection is?

Certainly not.  However, being a plodding person, I like to use these
supposed criteria for proper action as a guideline towards proper action,
whatever that is.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Marc Wachowitz                               75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
>   *   wonder everyday   *   nothing in particular   *   all is special   *

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jafl@cco.caltech.edu (John Lindal)
Subject: Re: Sabbe Dhamma Anatta
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 23:43:11 GMT

Excellent story!  It gives meaning to the phrase "Be still and know that
                                                  you are part of God"

John Lindal

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: "Marc Wachowitz"  <75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de>
Subject:  Re: Questions
Organization: ----
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:55:15 GMT

John Wheeler <johnw@farside.eng.ready.com> wrote:
> 1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them?
Another one of so many terms invented by humans trying to capture life in
concepts.
Ask back what the taste of water is.

> 2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>    such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?
I would (and do :-) tell people to live according to what appears right to
them at a particular moment, being open to change and allowing others to do
the same (i.e. doing what they consider right, not doing what one considers
to be right for them).

> 3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual
>    understanding or realization, what would be your answer?
How could I (and why should I) know? I see life as dynamic process being what-
ever it is in any given moment, not as to be measured against something else.
Flowers are not trees, plants are not animals, but are there really levels?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz                               75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
   *   wonder everyday   *   nothing in particular   *   all is special   *
From: szhu@prism.poly.edu (Shu Bin  Zhu)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:27:07 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

In article <1992Apr14.031722.17965@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>Hi. Thanks for all the responses to my previous questions about enlightenment
>etc. These responses have deepened my interest in the topic of experience vs.
>theoretical knowledge. I especially appreciated the responders who shared
>something of their actual meditative experience. Which leads me to some
>more questions... 
>
>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?

 It seems whenever there is a full moon, and I become sleepless (a little) 
 then I meditate.  Actually I just sat for a while till I get really sleepy.
 >
>2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 

 It seems like my mind is in a different state.  clear, calm..  The problem is 
 the more calm I get in meditation the more not (clear, calm) I became when I
 am not meditating.
 >
>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?

 If I know what the fully enlightened state is, I will go create another 
 a world that can never be enlightened.

>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this? 
>     
> 	B. You have found the right meditation, but you are still
>           learning how to apply it, or perhaps you are not applying
>           it in the best way

 Why don't you prepare more multiple choice questions.
>
>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when? 

 To be truly honest, I don't know how can I be fully enlightened till after
 the end of time.  Otherwise, I will miss all the fun.   The pain and suffer
 are so good.
From: jmj5g@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (John M. Jackson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Vajradhatu?
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:35:48 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu  writes:
> Could someone who knows about Vajradhatu or any other Vajrayana groups please
> post about their respective traditions.  Addresses, info on personalities,
> literature, newsletters, and experiences would be tremendously appreciated
> by myself, and I'm sure others who are looking for this dharma. Experiences
> would be most valuable to me right now.

  Get on the mailing list of Snow Lion in Ithaca, NY (they have
an 800 number, but I don't have it handy).  Their newsletter/
catalog covers activities of most of the major Tibetan
vajrayana groups.  Better yet, get a copy of "Buddhism in
America", a swell reference on many, many Buddhist groups all
across the country with descriptions of practices to boot.  It
is in paperback and easily ordered.

John in Virginia
jmj5g@galen.med.virginia.edu
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:11:44 GMT
Organization: Lysator Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden

John Wheeler writes:
>I would like to propose the following questions for discussion.

Interesting questions. Here are my answers. I think the other answers
will be interesting to read.

>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

Honestly, I haven't the faintest. But I hope that it makes the pain of
every-day-life more bearable. I think I would like it. I imagine it to
be some kind of peace of mind, of detachement, without indifference.

>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

To do it their own way. There are so many ways. Zen might work, dream
machines might work, yoga might work etc for this specific person. The
important thing is not to give up on something you *feel* worthwhile
because someone, however close or important to you, doesn't like it.
Bringing some sound scepticism into this will help the person not
being ruined in her search.

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

Beginner. Unfortunately not in the Zen manner, but in the newbie
manner. :) I am on the aggressive stage of the ten steps. I have no
idea how much time it will take me to advance to the next level. The
first ones were rather easy, but I expect them to get harder and
harder to attain and stay at.


--Ceci
--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
"Vorbedingung des kuenstlerischen Schaffens ist nicht, ein Ereignis
oder ein Motiv so "rein" anzuschauen, dass es auf das betrachtende
Subjekt gar keine Wirkung hat." Hermann Leber: Aquarellieren lernen
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The concept of Jivatma and Paramaatma in Hinduism and its relation
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:18:48 GMT
Organization: ProLine [pro-nbs] San Diego (Tierrasanta), CA.  (619) 571-0152

In <1992Apr8.222958.7883@iitmax.iit.edu>
plains!sivaram@uunet.UU.NET (Sivaram Hariharan ) writes:

>
>Latest discovery on the bio-chemistry of the human brain is homing
>in the notion that our human bodies are nothing but bio-chemical
>entities(See latest papers published in CELL). As a result of this,
>the concept of a soul inhibiting the human body is becoming moot.


I have to disagree on that point. The body may be a biochemical entity, but
that is not all it is. Biochemistry may explain information processing in
the brain, but it does not explain consciousness. Somebody might say that
consciousness arises from biochemical interactions, but that is simply a
mystical assertion, with no basis in scientific explanation. No one has yet
produced consciousness from chemicals. So it remains correct to say that
consciousness is an absolute feature of reality, and of personal existence.
Science has even produced evidence for a conscious self in the form of
well-attested instances of out of body experiences and past life memories. So
the concept of the soul remains viable. 


Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma
ARPA:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma@nosc.mil
From: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 14 Apr 92 22:11:34 GMT
Organization: ----


In <1992Apr14.031722.17965@iitmax.iit.edu>, johnw@farside.eng.ready.com
(John Wheeler) writes:

>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?

Mainly mindfulness of breathing; also various other exercises I've seen
described.

>2. What is your actual experience in meditation?

No different from my usual waking state of consciousness.

>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?

Groping in the dark.

>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this?

Dunno.

>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when?

At this rate, never.

Actually, I'm less interested in "full enlightenment" than in the various
other states that are said to be encountered through meditation: access
concentration, the concentration sign, the absorptions, and so on.  I know
they are said to be of no importance in the long run, but they are also
said to be useful in the short run, as providing some concrete indication
that something is happening.  Without such feedback the practitioner would
(quite rightly, IMHO) give up.  What's the point of sitting in front of a
wall for ten years if all that happens is that you sit in front of a wall
for ten years?  There are better things to do with one's time, though
none that I know of would be relevant to obtaining these or any other
altered states (short of illegal drugs which I wouldn't know how to obtain).

I have not experienced any of these states, nor have I met anyone who
claims to have done.  Nor have I even experienced the more mundane effects
which some people do claim, such as, er, "fuller mental integration" or
something like that (the words don't make much sense to me).

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
From: iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ian E. Wickram)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Vajradhatu?
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:08:35 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Could someone who knows about Vajradhatu or any other Vajrayana groups please
post about their respective traditions.  Addresses, info on personalities,
literature, newsletters, and experiences would be tremendously appreciated
by myself, and I'm sure others who are looking for this dharma. Experiences
would be most valuable to me right now.
					Sincerely,
						Ian Wickram.
						iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

Be Realistic,
Expect a Miracle!
Bag. Shri Raj.
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Symbolism in visual art
Date: 7 Apr 92 07:59:44 GMT
Organization: ----


Ceci writes, I respond:


Today when I was Practising I had a most vivid sight of a geometric
pattern. Immediately afterwards I painted it, which took rather a lot
of time, but was most rewarding. This is how the geometric figure
looked:
	Imagine a grid of nine equally sized squares. The four in
	the corners are coloured. In the middle a somewhat bigger
	square is also coloured. The corner squares are superimposed
	on the big middle square. All this is set against a black
	background. Not jetblack, but a black with many colours in it.
	The coloured squares are dark-green at the corners and
	light-yellow in the centre. The outlines are a bright white.
	The dark areas are painted with Indian ink and the colours
	with pure water-colours.

As I was very pleased by the effect and can sit and watch it for long
periods of time, I should like to know if anyone knows about the
colour and shape symbolism of the mandalas. Please don't just
recommend a book, as books about odd subjects are hard to get by where
I live.


Response:

I've been told that such things can be distracting from 'true practice', but 
this hasn't been true for me (since whatever I'm doing is my practice ;>).

I've more than once drawn mandalas and learned from them in meditation.
A study of symbolism thereby becomes an important adjunct study.  If one is
already into Western Occultism, this isn't all that long a haul, but if not,
hoooooeey, you've got some work ahead if you're planning on absorbing all THAT.

My own experience has shown that whatever meanings it has for YOU are probably
the ones most important for you at this time.  Watch for the pattern or
elements in it to occur in your local environment, in popular art (thankas?),
and in nature generally (flowers?).  She'll tell you want She wants you to
know. ;>

I was so fond of one of my mandalas that I had it tattooed onto my thigh.
Shhhhhhh, don't tell the newbies, that might think I'm into TOPY!  Hehehe



Yours in droolery,

Tagi
From: 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:27:39 GMT
Organization: ----

Aaron Nabil <nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu> wrote:
> In this world, imagine that the movies shown at theaters weren't shown
> titled, and when you go out to a movie your ticket is just for "the show" at
> some theater.
It's particularly funny when all are actors, audience and critics at the same
time. What kind of play do you want to make it? Teaching story with raised-up
finger? Tragedy? Boring play?
I vote for comedy combined with beautyful landscape :-)

> You can only hope that it will be interesting,
YOU can _make_ it interesting, and only YOU know what is interesting to YOU.

> These guidebooks are a treasure trove, and have reviews of all of
> the movies the critic has seen.
Yet a 1st-class movie of a critic may be less worthy than the 2nd-class movie
you are just seeing yourself - it is the critic who assigns ranks to movies.

> With that world in mind, people who ask the question you dislike people
> answering I would compare to people asking "Have you been to see
> Terminator 2?" in my imaginary world.  The first category of person asking
> wants to know what the movie was like.  The second wants to see the movie
> for himself, and wants directions to the theater.  The third saw "a" movie
> and wants to compare notes to confirm that it was indeed T2.  The fourth
> saw the movie, knew what it was, and wants a kindred soul to share a
> "Wow, weren't the fx great!?!" over a cup of coffee with.
Another one tries to tell you "hey, there are soooo many great movies, and
soooo many kinds of shows - enjoy the variety, don't waste you fee".

> The worst answers, worse than no answers at all, are "Yeah, I saw T2, on
> a scale of 1 to 10 it was Kidney Chakra.  It was a sublime as the sound
> of one hand clapping.  When you can snatch the ticket from my hand,
> grasshopper, then you are ready to go to the theater."
See previous comment :-)

> Well, you don't.  It helps to read over the guide books a few times so you
> can recognise the landmarks on the way to the theater, and to review the plot
> of the film.  Better yet, read several guide books and correlate them.  Maybe
> best, ask someone else if they have seen the movie you thought you saw.
You only need to do that if you want to be a recognized critic - otherwise
whatever movie you liked was the right one for you, even if everybody else
thinks it is boring nonsense.
Consider whether you like a brand and good critics, or just enjoy watching/
acting.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz                               75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
   *   wonder everyday   *   nothing in particular   *   all is special   *
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: plains!sivaram@uunet.UU.NET (Sivaram Hariharan )
Subject: The Significance of the Puraanaas(tales of Gods) in Hinduism.
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 23:46:35 GMT


  THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE PURAANAAS IN RELATION TO THE GITA AN THE VEDAS
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The nucleus of the Hindu philosophy is centered on the Upanishads, the Vedas,   
and the Gita. All three are unanimous in their conclusion about the 
existance of the all pervading Supreme Lord or the Paramaatman. 

The sage Veda-Vyaasa has done the thankless job of organizing the Vedas, 
the Upanishads and also in the recording of the Gita. In addition
to this, he has also written vast sections of the Puraanaas(Tales of
the Hindu dieties).

Sage Vyaasa knew that a religion totally based on the abstract concept
of the supreme-self would not find instant appeal to the layman on the
streets. For this sake, he composed the puraanaas. 

The puraanaas are the stories about the virtues of the individual dieties
in the Hindu religion. The number of stories is countless. 

At this point one may ask: is there any contradiction between the Puraanaas
and the Vedic thought or in that matter the doctrine of the Gita. These
tales look very simple and sometimes silly in comparison to the high
philosophy expoused in the Gita and the upanishads to the undiscerning.

But on closer look, these tales are in total agreement to what has been
preached in the Vedas. In the Puraanaas, the supreme Almighty has been
called Vishnu. In fact, the various powers which Vishnu has according
to the Puraanaas are similar to the properties of the Supreme Creator
as expoused in the Vedas and the Gita. One should read the Vishnu-
Sahasranaama, which calls out Vishnu in 1000 different names, each
describing his various qualities.  Vishnu is also called as the Lord
to whom all ultimately reach. Even the other powerful Gods are said
to originate from him. This is nothing different from the qualities
of the supreme Brahman in the Vedas, except that here the Supreme self
has been given a form. IMO, this is not objectionable. If God is
omni-present, why can't he be picturised as Vishnu.

The great Shankara, who wrote commentaries on the Vedas and the Gita
and who was the founder of the MONISTIC philosophy in Hinduism,
himself wrote poetries praising the various dieties in the Hindu religion.
The Puraanaas were written with the object to induce people into
the Bhakti-maarga(path of devotion), by expousing in it the 
super-human qualities of the Lord. But THESE TALES DO NOT CONTRADICT
THE JNAANA MAARGA(PATH OF KNOWLEDGE) school. 

In my next article, I will talk about the significance of the
Avataars of Vishnu or the Supreme lord.

sivaram. H
---------------------------------------------------------------
Life is complex, Make it simple.

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:53:51 GMT

In Article: <1992Apr9.213626.19123@iitmax.iit.edu>
johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:

>I would like to propose the following questions for discussion.

Welcome back to the newsgroup John :-).

>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

Enlightenment is knowing who we really are or Self-realization. I would
refer the asker to the writings of various masters and sages, especially
of my guru Paramahansa Yogananda who speak with authority on the subject.

>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

I would advise reading the _Autobiography of a Yogi_ by Paramahansa Yogananda
then if they feel that the Yoga path described by Yoganandaji is suitable
for them, I would invite them to explore more deeply the path by subscribing
to the Self-Realization Fellowship lessons and attending services/classes.

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

I have a ways to go :-).


>If anyone could respond with a few comments (not more than a paragraph or
>so) on each question, I would be interested. I would like to request that
>responses be expressed in simple english with as few technical terms as
>possible. Quoting authoritative texts is OK, but I would like to request
>that you quote only something that is your own direct personal experience.

These questions are a nice show-stopper to all of the long winded
pontifications of myself on this net - ie. are you enlightened? Do you
know God? Are you in Nirvana? If not, what in the devil are talking about?
Nice questions heh?  Spiritual understanding is good but is NOT EQUAL to
realization. That is why we should not get are feathers too much ruffled
with these discussions on the net and be sure to follow our chosen paths
with more than talk.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: More questions from John Wheeler
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:20:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T


> If someone, not necessarily of a spiritual bent, just a typical person on 
> the street, were to ask you the following questions, how would you respond? 


	
	If someone on the street heard of the "atomic bomb," and wanted
	to ask how it works, would one start directly with a lecture on
	Quantum Physics? Or first ask his (her) educational background,
	and then point him (her) to an appropriate school accordingly?
	
	
---raj
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern