From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:52:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.190101.10084@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> s1137020@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Mariusz Prokopczyk) writes:
>In article <87119@netnews.upenn.edu>
>kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>
>First of all lets quote Ian:
>    >  Well, to set the record straight, the Poles are indeed guilty of
>    >  disorganized oppression of their minorities, both before, during
>    >  and after the WWII.  They didn't do enough to save their Jewish
>    >  and Gypsy brethren because, as prof.  Wladyslaw Bartoszewski once
>    >  pointed out, "they are of this land but not to our liking" ("on
>    >  jest z ojczyzny mojej, ale go nie lubie").
>
>Well, for whom his evaluation is a straight record?
>Most certainly not for me, especially if expressed by my enemy!
>(and he is to me already after his first article for deceiving Poles
>not to reply to the appeal using apparently logic explanations)
>
>Next note that my rhetoric question was directed to Ian. I call it rhetoric
>because I do not believe that anybody can make non-biased evaluation on
>such subject, no matter how carefully he would collect historical facts
>and documents. How you are going to define what is enough and what is not?
>How you are going to measure it? What for you is not enough, for me can be
>too much, agree?

Surely you're not suggesting that some topics cannot be historically
evaluated?
 
>From my point of view many Poles risked or even paid with their lives for
>helping Jews, so I would rather call them heroes. I most certainly agree
>that there were some antysemitic elements in Polish society. I do not know
>to what extend one may call it a common attitude and what was the scale of
>the emotional strength of that attitude. Calling it intolerance, prejudice
>etc. is probably the easiest solution to describe the problem. A little
>harder is to try to find the reason and eventually eradicate its sources.

Yes, many Poles did risk their lives to save Jews. But anti-semitism was
and still is endemic to Polish society. This goes quite a bit beyond 
mere intolerance or prejudice. 
 
>In any circumstances it would be an insult to me if anyone would suggest
>my guilt through generalization for something what someone else has done,
>even if I would agree that other Poles were or are guilty of some bad
>actions.
>(Have you noticed that "... the Poles are indeed guilty ..."?)
>                                      ^^^ ps.MP

Absolutely true.
 
>Did it ever occured to you why(!) there were antysemitic emotions?
>Or do Jews treat themselves as angels whom bad Poles persecute?
>If you got brain, just think - think "why?" (not only "how?" - sorry,
>that is another sarcasm.)

No. Rather than make vague allusions, please explain.
 
>>>[...]I am slowly getting the picture why there were so many
>>>antysemitic reactions in polish society. Shall we start to list what
>>>Jews were doing in Poland before, during and after IIWW to counter
>>>your opinions?
>>>
>>Care to elaborate on that? ie list the evil things Jews did to Poles
>>before, during and after WWII.
>
>Again, you have not noticed that this is another rhetoric question, at
>least from my point of view. Let me add what was in the removed part:
>>>From seeing the hatred to Poles expressed by many Jewish authors
>>>writing here, I am ...
>If it does not appear that way too you now, it can only mean that you
>would be quite happy when both sides would throw the worst accusations
>against each other. (and I assure you it would end up that way)
>My point here was to underline the senselessness of such actions.
>Do you really think that if you accuse the other side of something
>it will start to love or respect you? If not, then what do you need that
>elaboration on it for?

Perhaps respect would come when Polish society begins to own up to
their own (past) actions regarding the Jews. Instead, what I continually 
see is "yes, but....". 
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
green@island.com            that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
                            of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish