HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carmanr@lafcol.lafayette.edu (Carman Robert (picro))
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: which canoe to buy?
Summary: Stick with aluminum
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:17:18 GMT
Organization: Lafayette College, Easton PA


In the conditions described, you'd be best advised to stick with the Grumman
and aluminum. One, the lake is small, and you plan no extensive tripping, so 
you do not need a high performance canoe. Two, royalex comes into its own in
whitewater canoes, where is slippery qualities allow it slide off rocks and
bounce off others without great damage--but that is a quality you need not be
concerned about. Nor do you need to worry about aluminum's annoying tendency 
to grab any nearby rock and stick to it. Maintenance on the aluminum is zero,
and it will keep its shape almost indefinitely. I don't have any data on the 
subject of outdoor storage of royalex, but I suspect that over time and many
temperature changes it would tend to deform. I do know that it becomes more
flexible when exposed to a hot sun for a while, and that is not a good sign 
for long-term outdoor storage. As for weight, royalex canoes are generally not
exactly lightweights. I used a Grumman for years before I built my present 
stripper. With a padded yoke on the center thwart and a little practice in 
tossing it onto your shoulders, one person can easily manage it for a fair
distance. My longest carries have been about 3.5 miles (Big Fish in the St.
Regis Adirondacks) and that's pretty miserable with a 78-pound iron boat, but
it would be no fun with a Kevlar feather, either. On a carry of 100 yards
or so, I doubt that the weight difference between royalex and aluminum would 
make any significant difference in comfort or ease of management. Never thought
I'd say it to anyone except a livery operator, but you sound like a candidate
for Grumman.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: neff@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Neff)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Royalex canoes
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Date: 16 Nov 1992 17:43:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov16.135631.19769@brtph560.bnr.ca> rlarsen@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen P220) writes:
>Royalex is intended for whitewater use. That is why there is no
>keel. It would hamper the manuverability of the canoe. Yes, without
>a keel you will do a lot of sideslipping in a crosswind. I have
>an Old Town Penobscott 16' that is relatively fast and handles
>crosswinds not too badly.

Hull shape determines tracking and maneuverability.

Material (fiberglass, aluminim, royalex) determines durability
and weight.  There are plenty of royalex canoes out there which 
track wonderfully, but maneuver like a truck!  (Our 17' Mad River
comes to mind!)

-- Robert
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:24:34 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <Bxx7xn.Mq0@mail.boi.hp.com> smay@boi.hp.com (Scott Smay) writes:
>Are you really a rower on an unholy mission to make whitewater
>folk look bad? 

Nope.  While I'm willing to accept the unfortunate oversight which happened
when we created this newsgroup, I'm not willing to accept the derogatory
remarks that have been made about whitewater paddling.  (E.g. "Less serious")

The careful reader will note that a recent polite query (from a rower)
about the role of the lower body in paddling was answered (by me) in kind.
There's no reason why this kind of calm interchange can't take place,
as far as I can tell...but idiotic remarks will be met with the flamage
that they fully deserve.

---Rsk
From: rlarsen@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen P220)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Royalex canoes
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:56:31 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP

Royalex is intended for whitewater use. That is why there is no
keel. It would hamper the manuverability of the canoe. Yes, without
a keel you will do a lot of sideslipping in a crosswind. I have
an Old Town Penobscott 16' that is relatively fast and handles
crosswinds not too badly.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: steve@pepe.aero.org (Steve Sedlacek)
Subject: shark attack
Keywords: sea kayaking, shark attack
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation; El Segundo, CA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:24:31 GMT

The local news here in LA had a short blurb about a great white shark
attack on two sea kayakers in the Bay area.  One kayaker was teaching the
other (a novice).  Apparently a great white came up from behind, came
2/3 out of the water and grabbed the rear of one of the boats.  The person
whose boat was grabbed thought he had hit a sea lion (din't realize
a shark had grabbed the boat!).  The other person saw all.  Apparently
the shark then left with the boat having big teethmarks but no tipped
or injured paddlers.  Anyone have any REAL info on this story?


-- 
Steven Sedlacek			sedlacek@aero.org
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Rowers: looking for a boat
Date: 18 Nov 1992 20:45:39 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

I am looking for a used Pocock wherry, preferably a single, but will
consider a pair/double.  If you see one laying around your club or
school and it never gets used, please let me know, I'll call  your
coach/captain and make an offer.  Any condition ok, I can fix it up.

USA West Coast only, please.  Don't bother suggesting Conn Findlay,
I've already tried to wrest one of his boats from his quiver.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle,misc.fitness
From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:14:59 GMT

>Also, any suggestions on where to buy rowing clothing? Probably by
>mail order?
>
I use bicycling shorts, tights, jerseys and foul weather gear.
Good bicycling clothes allows for considerable body movement without
binding.  Since there seem to be more cyclists than rowers, such
clothing may be less expensive and more readily available.  (Mailorder
sources include Bike Nashbar (1-800-NASHBAR) and Performance Bike Shop
(1-800-727-2433)).
 
..Richard E+17
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Subject: Re: shark attack on kayak
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:48:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.005029.13573@leland.Stanford.EDU> morgan@leland.Stanford.EDU (RL "Bob" Morgan) writes:
	<snip> <snip>
>When the shark struck, it came from the side, not directly up from the
>bottom.  As reported, the shark came mostly out of the water when it
>bit, biting completely around the boat, with the front of its teeth
>hitting past the center line of the boat, a foot or two behind the
>cockpit.  It spun him around 180 degrees.  Somehow he didn't capsize,
>which we agreed was a good thing (though he does have a roll in most
>circumstances).  The bite went through the shell of the boat and

	I don't know if shark attacks qualify as "most circumstances" :-)

	I've heard of bombproof rolls, but sharkproof...?

> - RL "Bob" Morgan

-------
"Don't believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear."  -  Lou Reed
Sea-Bass Sears --> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu --> DoD#516 <-- |Stanley, ID.|
'79 Yamaha XS750F -- '85 Toyota 4Runner -- Perception Corsica  |  NYC, NY.  |
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: smay@boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:33:31 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Danny Richman (gumby@spock.uucp) wrote:
    [a lot his own whining]

: Now they realize that their own newsgroup is losing popularity, and a few
: more subscribers wouldn't hurt.  You might have thought about that before you
: turned it into a newsgroup wide issue.  Judging by the recent attendance at
: the Head of the Charles Regatta, I don't think that we will have a problem
: creating traffic.  Remember folks we're in the off season right now, and still
: the majority of the articles in rec.boats.paddle deal with flat water rowing.
: I would have been happy staying in rec.boats.paddle, but the conservatives who
: occupy it are beginning to annoy me. 

Perhaps I am one of the "conservatives" who annoy you, since I brought up
concerns about lack of traffic. I think what really annoys you is that some
of us haven't seen evidence that there is enough traffic in rowing to warrant
a separate newsgroup. You have attempted to manufacture evidence through your
false generalization that kayakers and rowers "don't get along". You seem
determined to make it so.

: 	The point of this discussion is not to whine about how you think it
: will or won't work, but rather to post what you do and don't want to see from
: the newsgroup.  So our task for the next 15 days or so is to devise a charter
: or general agreement between those who want the newsgroup.  At the end of the
: discussion period, we will then vote on the agreed proposal.
: 	Let`s get down to business shall we:
:

I thought part of the point of the discussion is to determine if the new group
is warranted. 
 
: -----The first thing we need to do is decide on a group name.  Many people
: do not agree on rec.boats.crew.  So we have a few other good choices:
: 
: (someone suggested rec.boats.oars, but remember even canoers and kayakers use
: oars.)

Fightin' words!

: rowing should cover the scullers, and sweep-oar rowers without offending
: sailboat and power boat crews (whatever?)a

Geez, as long as we're trying to alienate the whitewater crowd, we might as
well offend the snobbish sailors and powerboaters.


More seriously: good luck on getting this group together. I think you will have
more long term success if avoid trying to provoke war between paddlers and
rowers, and if you can avoid getting annoyed with people whose opinions differ
from yours.

cheers,
scott
From: petolino@joe.Eng.Sun.COM (Joe Petolino)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: shark attack on kayak
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:27:44 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: joe

>I read about the attack on the sea kayaker off Ano Nuevo Is.
>Fortunately he wasn't hurt, but I understand that the kayak
>was holed.
>
>What precautions can be taken short of giving up the sport?
>Is there a color or combination of colors which would make a
>kayak look less like prey?

A couple of years ago John McCosker, shark expert from the Steinhart
Aquarium, spoke at our club meeting (Ken was probably in the audience then).
His advice:

    * Stay away from areas with lots of young seals.  An~o Nuevo was
	one of the spots he specifically mentioned (others were
	the Farallones, Tomales Point, and Point Reyes).

    * Don't paddle alone.  At the very least, being in a larger group
	will decrease the chances that *you* are the one the shark will
	go after.  Also, if you are attacked, you'll have others to
	help you get out of the water.

    * Keep moving.  Great whites are lazy hunters, and like to sneak up
	on resting prey from behind.

    * Don't look like a seal.  This mostly relates to the size of your
	boat.  Ken was paddling a Dancer on Saturday.  Larger sea kayaks
	are probably safer.  Short surfboards with legs dangling off the
	sides look remarkably like seals from underneath - McCosker
	illustrated this with a slide.

    * I don't think color has much to do with it.  At one time there were
	a lot of attacks on yellow surfboards ("yum-yum yellow"), but it
	turned out that most surfboards were yellow then.  I doubt that
	a shark can see the color of your boat from underneath, since it's
	backlit.

I think someone else has mentioned this, but the way great whites hunt is
to make one surprise attack from below and behind, then back off and wait
for the prey to bleed to death.

-Joe
From: shaw+@cs.cmu.edu (Mary Shaw)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: New newsgroup
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:44:56 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


If there is to be another group, symmetry reuires that it be named
	rec.boats.oar :-)

There is an established procedure for starting new groups -- it involves
announcing the discussion here but holding it elsewhere.  Someone needs
to care enough to do the work.

Personally I don't think there's enough traffic to justify a split.
Seems like there has been more traffic about too much rowing traffic
than ther has been rowing traffic.
From: tkaczuk.apple.com (Rick Donnelly)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: shark attack
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:21:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Nov17.002431.4925@speedy.aero.org>, steve@pepe.aero.org
(Steve Sedlacek) wrote:
> 
> The local news here in LA had a short blurb about a great white shark
> attack on two sea kayakers in the Bay area.  One kayaker was teaching the
> other (a novice).  Apparently a great white came up from behind, came
> 2/3 out of the water and grabbed the rear of one of the boats.  The person
> whose boat was grabbed thought he had hit a sea lion (din't realize
> a shark had grabbed the boat!).  The other person saw all.  Apparently
> the shark then left with the boat having big teethmarks but no tipped
> or injured paddlers.  Anyone have any REAL info on this story?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven Sedlacek			sedlacek@aero.org

Steve,

That is about all there is to the story. The two were kayaking off Ano
Neuevo, which is about as close to a shark city as is possible. A surfer
who thinks the waves there are great was quoted as saying, "It's great, but
you just have to watch out for the fins." It is an elephant seal nursery
("rookery" is for birds, but I don't think "nursery" is right either) and
if there is a place where great whites are common, this is it. Still, the
12 foot shark attacked a small kayak (13' - but I don't know which type)
and perforated the hull. The kayaker reached shore, but the boat was fairly
well swamped. For those who think of such things, the boat was red, but I
don't know if it was fibreglass or plastic.

That's about all there is, really. A scary incident, naturally, but no
harm, no foul.

Rick
From: chris@yen.IMSI.COM (Chris Payne)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: drytops
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:05:30 GMT
Organization: Moore Capital Management
In-reply-to: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu's message of 13 Nov 92 02:43:41 GMT
Originator: chris@yen


 My spouse & I have stohlquist eridanus dry suits, as described by
Sebastian Sears (scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu).  Love 'em!  We've spent
over a week on the water in them, one November off Maine, with no
discomfort.

 We've had 'em 2 1/2 years so far, and the gaskets are fine (more grey
than shiny black now, though).

/chris
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: shark attack
Date: 17 Nov 1992 11:29:24 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1eau0nINN60k@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>,
dickman@ecst.csuchico.edu (Bob Dickman) writes:

shark attack story deleted.

>
>Back on land, Kelton had a new worry.  Chin, he said, had asked him about the
>dangers of shards and he "just laughed it off."

I body surf Pomponio a lot.  I am very familiar with the Coastal
waters off northern Cal.  My sister worked for Bodega Marine labs as
a diver for a while.

The risk of shark attack in northern California coastal waters is
NOT minimal.  Great white population has increased along with the
populations of sea lions and seals.  The biggest lie that gets put
out with these attacks runs something like this:  The risk of shark
attack is more that 100000000000:1, or you have a better chance of
getting killed by a bee sting.  (I made up the number).  The problem
is that they are including the entire population of the world.
people who stay on the shore are not going to get attacked by a
shark.  Very VERY VERY few people go into the water on Northern Cal
beaches, and when they do, it is for short duration.  When you
factor in that sharks are territorial and stake out a hunting area
where there is food, even that number goes down.  In the last few
years there have been around 9 incidents between Bodega and Santa
Cruz that I recall.   The attacks have been grouped almost entirely
in sea lion 'infested' areas.

There have been no attacks at the popular surf spots in Half Moon
Bay where there are very few if any seals.

Rule of thumb:  Don't paddle or surf in areas where you can see
sea lions, seals, etc.  There ARE sharks around.  If you can see
dolphins in the area, you are likely to be quite safe.  Dolphins
won't hang around where big sharks are.

The second myth:   Sharks don't like the taste of humans/surfboards,
etc which is why none of the attacks have resulted in death.  In
reality, sharks are rather shy, they will hit hard the first time
and withdraw before their victim has a chance to react and defend
and then wait until the victim goes into shock before devouring it.

Sea lions are big and have sharp teeth, A shark will hit it hard
and get away before the victim can get to his eyes.  Generally human
victims have had buddies or floatation to help them get out before
the shark has a chance to go after it again.

Stay away from Davenport, BTW.  I think San Mateo County beaches
about 15 miles north of Ano Nuevo are safer, I see almost no Seals
or sea lions there.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: HF.RXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Robin Warfield)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: DRYTOPS
Date: 19 Nov 1992 11:09:56 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu



This is to the guy who wrote to me with an interest in drytops also.
 I have some more info to pass on, but deleted your message
therefore, I do not have your em address.  Please write again!
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: IJIM@vm1.spcs.umn.edu (Jim Colten)
Subject: Re: Last of the Mohicans
Organization: CIS at U of MN
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:25:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.200944.5700@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
David.T.Greenfield@dartmouth.edu (David T. Greenfield) writes:
 
>
>In article <1dojjrINN8r8@rave.larc.nasa.gov>
>ghee@vision.larc.nasa.gov (Terry A. Ghee) writes:
>
>> I traditionally think of the birch bark canoe
>> as being white because that is what was told to me
>> in elementary school. ....
>
>Birch bark canoes were (and are) most often made from the bark of the
>White Birch (also known as the Paper Birch).  The bark was used with
>the white side turned in.  The side of the bark that faces in on the
>tree faces out on the canoe.  It has a reddish orange color when
>freshly removed from the tree and over time gradually turns to a deeper
>reddish brown.
>
 
Yes, bark canoes are built with the bark 'inside out'. I recall reading or
hearing from a bark builder that the ultimate color was influenced by the time
of year the bark is taken from the tree.
From: neff@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Robert Neff)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Solo canoe for Heavy Paddler: which one?
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Date: 17 Nov 1992 20:30:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: diva.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov17.184831.17809@IRO.UMontreal.CA> fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel) writes:
>Hello,
>
>	I am not sure my first post got through so i am
>    repeating:
>
>	I intend to buy a solo canoe before spring.  I can get
>    a Dagger Caper at a fair price.  It looks good for a heavy
>    paddler (6'2", 135 lbs) with moderate skill (next summer 
>    will be devoted entirely to learning).
>
...
>	I don't like the V-Shape of the Mad River ME very
>    much.  Do i miss something?
>
>					Sylvain Fauvel

Well, I paddle an ME, so I guess I have to reply.  

The reason for the shallow V in the ME is to give better tracking
to the boat, and also give the hull more strength.  When I compared 
the ME to other boats, particularly the smaller Daggers, I found
that I was willing to sacrifice some of the maneuverability 
found in the Daggers for a little better tracking.  The test which 
did it for me was a simple forward ferry across some whitewater.
The ME was much better at keeping the angle I gave it.  With the 
Daggers I felt like every stroke was correcting for what a little 
wave had done to knock the boat off track.  

I got the ME, and have not regretted it.  (BTW, I am 6'3", 180).

The other key difference I see between the ME and the Impulse(to pick
a name) is in the way they try to keep the boat dry.  In the ME, it is
by lengthing the boat, and using a lot of rocker.  In the Dagger,
those bubulous (Sp) bows push the water away from the boat.  I think
the Dagger method works better, since I always seem to find waves 
which will crash over the bow and onto me in the ME.

I have seen pretty large people in 13' boats, so I don't think you 
need to eliminate them from your list.

-- Robert

First of all, I am not particularly impressed with the Caper.  It 
appears to have all the disadvantages of the flatter bottomed 
Dagger boats, and the disadvantages of the longer Mad River boats.



Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: nbirkman@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Nancy Birkmann - DCS)
Subject: Re: Kayak clinic in KW area?
Keywords: Want to learn
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:43:54 GMT

In article <By51B7.7Ew@mach1.wlu.ca>, brez8986@mach1.wlu.ca (James Brezina u) writes:
> I was just wondering if anyone knew of a somewhere that I could get some
> info on a place that offers kayaking lessons/clinics etc. in the Kitchener
> Waterloo are (if such exists).  I was introduced to kayaking at a camp

James,
   Try contacting Rockwood Outfitters, 699 Speedvale W. in Guelph,
Ontario (519) 824-1415 for information on the "Guelph Kayak Club".   A
bunch of very enthusiastic kayakers (novice and pro) decided to start
up a club in the winter of '91.   In the Spring and summer, they have
weekly paddle nights on Guelph Lake where you can brush up on those
paddling skills.

Nancy
From: fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Solo canoe for Heavy Paddler: which one?
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:48:31 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

Hello,

	I am not sure my first post got through so i am
    repeating:

	I intend to buy a solo canoe before spring.  I can get
    a Dagger Caper at a fair price.  It looks good for a heavy
    paddler (6'2", 135 lbs) with moderate skill (next summer 
    will be devoted entirely to learning).

	Does anyone have any comments on the Caper.  Are there
    other good whitewater solo canoe for heavy paddlers.  I
    do mostly whitewiter but some flatwater every now and
    then (between rapids).

	I don't like the V-Shape of the Mad River ME very
    much.  Do i miss something?

					Sylvain Fauvel
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: andyh@microsoft.com (Andy Held)
Subject: Re: New newsgroup
Date: 18 Nov 92 04:46:10 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <BxsCuy.HK1.2@cs.cmu.edu> shaw+@cs.cmu.edu (Mary Shaw) writes:
>
>If there is to be another group, symmetry reuires that it be named
>	rec.boats.oar :-)
>

UGH!  So if I want to post about my grand canyon trip, where I rowed
1/2 the time, and paddle my 'yak 1/2 the time, I need to post two
places, since the rowing part used oars.  

A friend just joined a (commercial) rowing club close by.  I'm
waiting to get me info, but I plan on joining, too.  I'd like to
see a rowing newsgroup, but plz, call it rec.boats.rowing.  (see
ealier arguments against rec.boats.crew.)

Endeau,
-andy
From: smay@boi.hp.com (Scott Smay)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:46:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Rich Kulawiec (rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu) wrote:
:
  [his latest senseless diatribe]

Are you really a rower on an unholy mission to make whitewater
folk look bad? 

cheers,
scott
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle