From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2)
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:06:25 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <Aug.19.00.05.16.1992.13779@athos.rutgers.edu>, REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:05:17 GMT+5:00

> In article <Aug.18.02.28.08.1992.27368@aramis.rutgers.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu
> (Charley Wingate) writes:
> >K. Paulson writes:
> >>(Christ is the rock mentioned in Matthew 16:18.)
> >
> >This is quite untenable, as it makes a hash out of the greek.  Peter is the
> >rock because "Peter" is "rock".  What this means exactly is another issue,
> >of course, but insisting that Jesus is talking about himself is quite
> >contrary to scripture.
> >
> >>Jesus Christ has ALWAYS been the Rock.  "And have ye not read this
> >>scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the
> >>corner:"  Mark 12:10.
> >
> >This is a linguistic fallacy.  The same symbol need not always stand fo the
> >same thing, even within the same text.

> Why don't we just stop arguing about the interpretation of this text.  It has
> been hashed over by men of greater scholorship than any of us, and they too
> came to different conclussions.  Let's just agree that it is not a verse that
> any dogma can be built upon, and leave it at that.  If the RC builds its
> apostalic session primarily off of this, then it is tenuous at best.  

No, actually the RCC builds its beliefs on the teachings of the
Apostles, this verse being merely an indication of that teaching.  While
I contend that our beliefs are not contrary to Scripture, we make no
pretense of deriving all of our beliefs from scripture.

> The true dogma's of the CHurch have the authority of the entire 66
> books as a basis.

Actually 72 books ;-).  True dogmas, as Scripture says, come from the
teaching of the Apostles, not from Scripture alone.
   
> Just as there is a depth of meaning behind "logos" so there
> is behind "petros" especially relevant to the worship of Saturn in Rome
> during the days that it and Christianity were combined to form a state
> church.  There are many, many books that attest to this marriage,
> unfortunately most of them are next to impossible to get hold of now a days.

Probably because they are mostly erroneous and of questionable
scholarship.

Considering, Rexlex, that it can be shown that most of these terrible
heresies of the church were believed long before the church was
legalized, I find it doubtful that the legalization of Christianity had
anything do with them.  Prayers for the dead, prayers to saints, belief
in the Real Presence, baptismal regeneration, veneration of Mary and the
saints, veneration of relics, the necessity of auricular confession,
penance, on and on -- it can be shown that the church believed these
things long before Constantine came along.

> I recently ran across several books at the L of C on Roman antiquities
> that also spoke about the early days of Rome and their two primary
> religions of Saturn and Christ worship and how the state had married
> them into a state religion which evolved into the RCC. [I apologize if
> this strikes any RC as heresy, but the historical record is there for
> any who want to read it.]

I could easily come up with some accusations that Protestant worship is
based on pagan religions, but it would also be false.  The historical
record shows that there was no such marriage between paganism and
Catholicism.  Not only that, such a marriage is tantamount to saying
that Satan had conquered the church, something plainly contradicted by
Matthew 16:19. 

I urge you, Rexlex, to read for yourself the early writings of the
church, and compare them to the paganism you decry.  You will find that
the Catholic church has always held the same unending truth, and has
never combined paganism and Christianity.  Not only that, you will find
that what we teach is in fact what the Apostles taught.

If the church was corrupted in the 4th century by pagan religion, then
the promises 1 Tim 3:15 (the church is the pillar and foundation of the
truth), Is 59:21 (My words shall not depart from their mouths, or the
mouths of their children, or of their children's children), 1 Peter 1:25
(The Word of God stands forever, and this is the word that was preached
to you) are all lies.  Christ has never abandoned his church.  He never
abandoned Israel, and he never abandoned his church, nor did he ever
leave it at any point whatsoever.

> I have only mentioned this for those of you who have time on your hands and
> like to do project studies.  Study either early Rome, or if you're more
> adventurous, study the ancient mystery religions back from Rome, to Greece,
> to Egypt, to Assyria, back to Egypt, the far East, and of course ending in
> Babylon.

Study St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Rome, the Didache, St.
Justin Martyr, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Cyprian, St. Hippolytus of
Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Augustine of Hippo, Tertullian,
Origen, Novatian, and many others, and it will prove that our faith
comes not from pagan religions, but from the Apostles themselves.

I might point out, Rexlex, that there are strong similarities between
your Christianity and paganism as well (actually the Christianity we
share).  Virgin births, resurrections, Gods becoming incarnate to save
mankind, cleansing from sin by the blood of a god, baptism, the theology
of the Logos, and many other things are also present in pagan religions.
But Rexlex, just because they look similar doesn't mean that our faith
is based on paganism.

What is paganism, after all?  Paganism is a corruption of truth.  Satan
takes the truth and distorts it to his own ends.  He can never create.
Read the Old Testament accounts of pagan religions.  While certainly
there was much wrong with them, as with any lie of Satan, there is a
grain of truth in them.  The fact that paganism is a corruption of truth
demonstrates that somewhere in pagan religions, there does exist truth.
Therefore one must not dogmatically insist that any similarity with
paganism is wrong.  It is in fact true that paganism is a distortion of
Christianity, not the reverse, because Christianity is the truth, and
has merely been distorted by Satan for his uses.

Catholicism is not based on paganism.  Paganism is based on Catholicism.
Satan has known the truth for all time.  He chose to corrupt it in his
pagan religions.  Now you believe his lie that simply because the
Catholic faith bears resemblance to his pagan faiths -- when in truth it
is the reverse -- Catholicism is to be rejected.

I'd rather not water down Christianity by removing all the objectionable
elements because they 'look pagan'.  I am not going to make an apology
for true Christianity because paganism happens to be a distortion of it.
Let paganism do what it wishes.  I will hold true to the true faith, no
matter how paganism may mock it.

> However this argument was started, not by Catholics, but by a
> Protestant (whose posting I probably should not have accepted).
> --clh]

I don't know, I like the opportunity to discuss these things every once in a
while.  I'd recommend blocking posts only after matters get out of hand.

--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.