HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bam@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Bruce A. Martin)
Subject: Help needed with Marrou petitioning
Organization: (none)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:31:51 GMT

Reposted by request, from alt.politics.elections
(June does not get this group).
\BAM

The following was posted to libernet this morning and I thought it
would be useful to repost it here.  Another message this morning
indicated that the MA ballot drive has been completed but some of
the other states listed below have very large requirements and very
little time, especially New York and Pennsylvania. If you would like
to help make more choices available on the ballot in your state
please contact the indicated Marrou petition coordinators asap.  The
deadline for many of these states is late July or early August.
Time his short.  We need your help to offer you the Libertarian
alternative.

/June
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Dehn <Joe.Dehn@f418.n104.z1.fidonet.org>
To: Libernet
Date: 20 Jul 92  17:46:19

People to call if you can help with petitioning:

   CO  Chris Bogart     303 449 6327
   CT  Rich Loomis      203 745 2848
   DC  Stuart Reges     202 543 1988
   IL  Sue Walton       708 475 0391
   MA  Lee Nason        617 286 1719
   MN  Bob Kuhn         612 377 9888
   MO  Steve Schaper    314 481 1776
   ND  Terry Spath      701 280 0641
   NJ  Dan Karlan       201 444 2846
   NY  Jeff Russell     518 233 1344
   OH  Mark Ginter      513 671 2339
   PA  Richard Schwarz  215 854 8137
   RI  Stephen Lonardo  401 273 9079
   VA  Roger Menner     804 276 2438
   WV  Chris Fishbeck   304 263 0148


Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: rab@well.sf.ca.us (Bob Bickford)
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:05:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.174409.28165@ornl.gov>,
 de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.110504.28326@techbook.com>,
 szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:
>>* A caller asked Marrou how he would tackle the homeless problem.
>>  Marrou said the problem was caused by zoning, restrictive 
>>  electric/plumbing codes, and other regulations that are designed for 
>>  the middle class and drive up the cost of housing beyond what the poor
>>  can afford.  If home builders were free from regulation, they 
>>  could build affordable housing and homelessness would be greatly 
>>  reduced.
>
>Sounds like snake oil, to me.  Those pesky codes aren't designed to drive
>up the cost of housing, they're there to ensure safety.  Should people be
>allowed to live in unsafe housing just because they can't afford safety
>features?

This is incorrect.  Many building codes have nothing whatsoever to do
with 'safety' but everything to do with protecting a particular
industry, product, or union.  Some of the worst abuses are in the
electrical and plumbing codes; by requiring that work be done in
certain ways, they not only represent protectionism for the unions but
(more importantly) prevent the implementation of safe new technology
that's also cheaper.

Libertarians favor safety, which is why we oppose government
involvement in the issue: UL, for example, does a far better job than
any government bureaucracy ever thought of doing.

>           The homeless problem isn't lack of affordable housing, it's an
>excess of jobless, poor, addicted, and mentally or physically ill people.
>Shaving 10, 20, or even 30% off the cost of construction won't solve the
>homeless problem.

This also is not true -- read Tucker's "Excluded Americans" for lots
and lots of detail about this.  Even shaving a little bit off of
housing prices, and (more significantly) reducing or eliminating
restrictive zoning and rent-control ordinances, will create both
increased mobility in the existing housing market *and* increased
supply of new housing; both are needed to free up units for occupation
by the currently homeless.

--
        Robert Bickford                       rab@well.sf.ca.us
 Vice-Chair, Libertarian Party    /-------------------------------------\
      of Marin County (CA)        | Don't Blame Me: I Voted Libertarian |
                                  \-------------------------------------/
Xref: sparky alt.politics.marrou:315 alt.politics.elections:9390
From: frazier@maxwell (Greg Frazier)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:00:06 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer) writes:
: >Of course regulations cost.  Who ever said they do not?  The
: >Libertarian alternative of removing these regulations costs too.  You
: 
: So don't buy it. Commision a house and/or inspect it yourself. Don't
: buy it if you don't like the way it is built. With the regulations
: gone you could even build your own.

That's not a cost?

--


Greg Frazier	frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU	!{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: korman@seas.gwu.edu (John Korman)
Subject: Re: What is Marrou's position on research and space exp?
Keywords: n
Organization: George Washington University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:01:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.012102.29366@plx.com> asgard@plx.com (J.R. Stoner) writes:
>
>Maybe now is a good time to bring up an anecdote, to help crystallize
>thinking on the subject of government procurement of military hardware.
>
>The subject is the YF-20.
>General Dynamics splunked down close to a billion dollars of their own money
>to design and test a new single-engine figher jet some years ago.  This plane

I think it was Northrop who developed the YF-20 fighter.

John

Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: greenm2@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew Greenman)
Subject: What is Marrou's position on research and space exp?
Summary: See Subject
Keywords: Marrou, policy, space
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:14:52 GMT


What is Marrou's/the LP's position concerning government-funded
research?  Also, how does Marrou feel about NASA, space exploration
and research?  As a voter currently in the undecided portion of the polls,
My vote could be influenced by is position of these issues.

Thanks to all you LP'ers in advance,

Matt

Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: helz@ecn.purdue.edu (Randall A Helzerman)
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou/Nancy Lord in '92!
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:45:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.121454.14132@husc3.harvard.edu>, koumis@husc4.harvard.edu (Anthony Koumis) writes:

|> Private business run better than public ones ..... that is what all nice
|> conservatives believe.  But I hate to break it to you, lots and lots 
|> of private businesses are badly run, badly managed, etc.  In case you
|> havent notices lots and lots of businesses are losing money in the US.
|> Being private is no guarnatee it will run well.

Quite so--the difference lies not in how well a private vs. public
company is run.  The issue is that the goverment has guns--and can 
force the public to cough up any amount of money to subsidize a
loosing operation--for example the Post Office.  A badly managed private 
company, on the other hand, will go bankrupt, and its chairs, desks, 
computers, factories, etc., will be sold to managers who will use them 
more wisely.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 04:20:42 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:
>>Pay attention.  We've been arguing why the free market will provide affordable
>>quality housing if permitted.
>>
>So far you have only argued the housing would be cheaper, and that
>homeless people should have the opportunity to live in unsafe housing
>if they so desire.  I have yet to see the word "quality" until this
>post.  Where exactly is the incentive for the builder to spend money on
>quality?  Remember, you have been talking about housing for the
>extremely poor.  Also, your lack of standards would presumably apply to
>your house and mine as well.  I would rather my kids did not live in a
>firetrap.

Christ.  At the beginning of this post the authors were clearly
talking about people *DYING* on the street because your cretinic
regulations do not allow them to find shelter, and you are blabberring
about "quality" and about not allowing your kids to live there.  
I wonder how you would feel if your kids were dying on the streets,
I wonder if your coffee-table intellectualism would hold so strong then.

I wish more people actually lived through some of the things they are
philosophizing about.  The fireplace discussions about assuring "quality"
housing for the poor out of the "concern for their well-being" make me
sick with their hypocrisy. 

t.
Xref: sparky alt.politics.marrou:268 alt.politics.elections:9300
From: wilkes@apple.com (John Wilkes)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:49:32 GMT
Organization: Apple

In article <168327B27.MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com>, MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:
> 
> Without standards, they would have no reason not to do so.  I don't
> want my kids sleeping in a firetrap because the builder could save a
> few dollars on the electrical system, while charging me for more
> expensive parts.

You are absolutely right!  I don't want my kids sleeping in a firetrap either.
That's why I paid a private home inspector to check a house that I was going
to buy, and after reading the inspection report, I backed out of the deal.
The house had severe electrical problems and quite likely is a firetrap.
Oh yeah, it was built according to code (many years ago) and duly inspected
at that time.

Nobody is saying we should have no standards, just that one set of government
mandated standards is a bad idea and does not accomplish its mission.  I'd
trust a private inspector (who is working for me) a whole lot more than a
government inspector who has no liability when he misses something dangerous.

John Wilkes  <wilkes@apple.com>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.perot,talk.politics.misc
From: pjm@anegada.sps.mot.com (Patrick J. McGuinness)
Subject: Re: Gore emits greenhouse gases
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin TX
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:24:55 GMT

This talk of Gore emitting greenhouse gases reminded me of the
following: 
"Ars peotica from Sen. Al Gore, in an apparent plea for a more widespread
acceptance of public drunkenness:

"Insisting on the supremacy of the neocortex exacts a high price,
because the unnatural task of a disembodied mind is to somehow ignore
th intense psychic pain that comes from the constant nagging awareness
of what is missing: the experience of living in one's body as a fully
integrated physical and mental being. Life confronts everyone with
personal or circumstantial problems, of course, and there are many varieties
of psychic pain from which we wish to escape. But the cleavage of mind
and body, intellect and nature, has created a kind of psychic pain at the
very root of the modern mind, making it harder for anyone who is suffering
from other psychological wounds to be healed."
(Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance".)"

Above from The American Spectator, August 1992.

------
" Yo Al, pass the freon bong."



Xref: sparky alt.politics.marrou:269 alt.politics.elections:9301
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:37:22 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.marrou
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <168327B27.MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com>, MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:
> Of course regulations cost.  Who ever said they do not?  The
> Libertarian alternative of removing these regulations costs too.  You
> assume builders would only cut corners on housing for poor people?  I
> don't.  I assume they will cut corners on my house given the chance.
> Without standards, they would have no reason not to do so.  I don't
> want my kids sleeping in a firetrap because the builder could save a
> few dollars on the electrical system, while charging me for more
> expensive parts.

Could you please explain what portion of the libertarian philosophy
approves of fraud; or how "regulations" keeps the builder from doing
this to you ANYWAY?  (Regulations, now, not inspections.  You could
hire your OWN inspector.)
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politic.perot,talk.politics.misc
From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee)
Subject: Demopublican or Republicrat ?
Organization: NEC America, Engineering & Support
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:16:46 GMT

From article <BrrCyK.AEz@wrs.com>, by gak@wrs.com (Richard Stueven):
>
> Why is this so hard for people to understand?  NO NON-DEMOPUBLICAN WILL
> WIN THE PRESIDENCY IF EVERYONE VOTES DEMOPUBLICAN!  That goes for
> elections at any level, really...the very very low number of
> independent, Libertarian, or any other third-party holders of partisan
> offices is a testament of that.
>
> The mathematical game-playing that goes on wrt "I'd like to vote for X
> because I don't want to vote for Y, but X can't win, so I'll have to
> vote for Z even though I hate him" is a great example of this
> phenomenon.
>
> If you believe that X is the best person for the job, then vote for X.
> Get your friends to vote for X.  Get your enemies to vote for X.  If
> you live in Chicago, get all the people in your local cemetery to vote
> for X.  And do it year after year after year.  Change doesn't happen
> overnight.
>
> ---
> gak
> 107/H/3&4


Everyone keeps talking about voting Demopublican.


I am voting ........  REPUBLICRAT for a change.

;-)


-------------------------------------------------------------------
It is often stated (and certainly true) that the poor have no right
to the wealth of the rich.  It is seldom stated (but equally true)
that the rich have no right to the wealth of the poor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I prefer a small government which may permit some evil to
a large government which promotes evil at my expense.
---------------------------------------------------------
Marrou/Lord - Libertarians in '92

Michael Lee
mlee@esd.dl.nec.com
214-518-3807
Xref: sparky alt.politics.marrou:271 alt.politics.elections:9310
From: nelson@asylum.UUCP (Russ Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: privitization
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:19:56 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.marrou

In article <1992Jul28.102056.14247@husc3.harvard.edu> koumis@husc4.harvard.edu (Anthony Koumis) writes:

> In the LIberatarian idea of govt sell-off specualtion would also be
>encouraged by the gov't but in a different method.  I.E. sell off/
>privatize gov't assets, so the gov't would be saying "take us for all
>we got" and never mind the consequences (the same thinking of the
>1980s even if the theories are different).

Of course speculation would be encouraged: the more speculators, the
higher the price.

Earlier you complain that government assets sometimes get sold for a
song.  That happens because of government incompetence and corruption.
Don't you see?  That's our whole point!
-- 
--russ <nelson@crynwr.com> I'm proud to be a humble Quaker.
Peace is not the absence of war.  Peace is the presence of a system for
resolving conflicts before war becomes necessary.  War never creates peace.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,talk.politics.misc
From: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com (Hal Berenson)
Subject: Re: unfair treatment of LP (getting better in New Hampshire)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:47:44 GMT


In article <archer.113@utkux1.utk.edu>, archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes...
>>.............................................................................
> 
>Well, last I head, and I don't get up that way often, that they had 
>implimented a post-Purdy "assault weapon" ban, had a waiting period for 
>handguns, and assorted other "Brady Bunch" legislation. If my heresay is 
>incorrect, please let me know.

Sorry, but you have been fed a plate of cow dung.  NH has no restrictions
on ownership of any type of firearm.

.............................................................................

Hal Berenson	

Home: 71640.3535@compuserve.com
Work: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com

-- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own, not my employer's! If
I happen to communicate with you from work rather than home, its just
for convenience (just like asking for a "daytime phone number") and should
not be construed as representing the views of my employer or its
employees, officers, directors, or stockholders. --
Xref: sparky alt.politics.marrou:262 alt.politics.elections:9290
From: st1g9@rosie.uh.edu (Lee Preimesberger)
Subject: housing ramblings - was Re: Andre Marrou...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:57:00 GMT

In article <168328E48.MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com>, MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes...
#In article <1992Jul28.083814.5081@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
#starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
#So far you have only argued the housing would be cheaper, and that
#homeless people should have the opportunity to live in unsafe housing
#if they so desire.  I have yet to see the word "quality" until this
#post.  Where exactly is the incentive for the builder to spend money on
#quality?  Remember, you have been talking about housing for the
#extremely poor.  Also, your lack of standards would presumably apply to
#your house and mine as well.  I would rather my kids did not live in a
#firetrap.

	Personally, I would rather live in a fire trap than in a box.

	How old is _your_ house Jim?  Do you know what building codes consist
of?  If your house is more than ~8 years old and your live in a major city,
I would bet that your house won't pass a building inspection.  Big deal.

	Codes and laws are bullshit.  They don't promise you safe housing.
All they provide for are paying the salaries for hordes of roving building
inspectors and governmental parasites.  

	Even if you buy a new house, SOP is to hire a private inspector 
to verify the building is safe and livable - in spite of your precious codes
and roving critters.

#Oh, you have wounded me!  I have very few prejudices, actually.  The
#biggest problem is that I am intolerant of fools.  That is why I have
#such a low tolerance level for Libertarians.

#Jim McMaster

			  Lee Preimesberger
st1g9@jetson.uh.edu ----- Undergraduate Scum ----- University of Houston, USA
      "They went around and around.  Nobody smiled.  They just went
              around and around." - _Breakfast of Champions_
                                --+--
	Public key removed in hopes of getting the Hell out of VMS.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.misc
From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee)
Subject: PETITIONING WORK TO BE DONE - LIBERTARIAN
Organization: NEC America, Engineering & Support
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:44:43 GMT


    CO  Chris Bogart     303 449 6327
    CT  Rich Loomis      203 745 2848
    DC  Stuart Reges     202 543 1988
    IL  Sue Walton       708 475 0391
    MA  Lee Nason        617 286 1719
    MN  Bob Kuhn         612 377 9888
    MO  Steve Schaper    314 481 1776
    ND  Terry Spath      701 280 0641
    NJ  Dan Karlan       201 444 2846
    NY  Jeff Russell     518 233 1344
    OH  Mark Ginter      513 671 2339
    PA  Richard Schwarz  215 854 8137
    RI  Stephen Lonardo  401 273 9079
    VA  Roger Menner     804 276 2438
    WV  Chris Fishbeck   304 263 0148


-------------------------------------------------------

 
        STATUS OF PETITIONING FOR MARROU/LORD TICKET 
 
States where petitioning is going on or could be going on [13]: 
  
              required   collected   est. to go   deadline  
               (valid)      (raw)       (raw)  
   
 New York       15000        3000       19000      Aug 24  
 Virginia       13920       11000       10000      Aug 21  
 Pennsylvania   37216       47000        8000      Aug 1  
 Missouri       23517       34000        7000      Aug 3 
 North Dakota    4000         400        5300      Sep 4  
 D.C.            3072           0        5000      Aug 18  
 Connecticut    14620       15000        4000      Aug 14  
 West Virginia   6534       12300        3700      Aug 1  
 Ohio            5000        4400        3100      Aug 20  
 Minnesota       2000         400        2400      Sep 15  
 Rhode Island    1000           0        1400      Sep 4  
 Alaska          2002        4300         700      Aug 5 
 Illinois       25000       35100           0*     Aug 3  
                                       ------  
                                        69600 
 
 
States where petitioning work is complete but the petitions have not been
submitted to the state [2]: 
 
 Colorado, Tennessee 
 
States where petitions have been submitted but we do not have confirmation of
sufficiency from the state [6]: 
 
 Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Oklahoma 
 
States where no more petition-related work needs to be done to put 
   Marrou/Lord ticket on the ballot [30]: 
 
 Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, 
 Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, 
 Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, 
 North Carolina, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, 
 Utah, Vermont, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.elections
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Andre Marrou on Larry King
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 14:57:07 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com writes:
>No, he cannot.  I am not an expert in home construction, nor is it
>realistically possible for me to become one.  A building inspector has
>a better chance of knowing what to look for, and the legal clout to
>back up his findings.  The builder can just as easily lie to the
>inspector, but he has a much better chance of getting caught.

Then make a satisfactory inspection a condition of the sale, and hire your
own inspector.  (Funny, but that's standard practice near as I can tell....)

In the absence of government-imposed regulations, do you really think the 
various construction and inspection industries wouldn't develop standards
of their own?  Then you'd build your property however you wanted to, but
if it wasn't compliant with the major standards you'd probably have trouble
selling it, unless you could convince the buyer (or his inspector) that the
standards are flawed.  In other words, you get to make an informed choice
rather than having The Rules handed down from on high.  This strategy already
works in other areas of our lives; do you buy software without checking for
compatibility with the environments/standards you're interested in?

If the builder violates the contract, he is guilty of fraud.  This is
actionable.

Monica
Organization: Doctoral student, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA