From: 9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Summary: Transliteration of Arabic v/s its use in its native form
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:15:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: uhdvx3.3OCT199215151964
Organization: University of Houston-Downtown
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41A
X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 7 hours, 4 minutes since the new moon

Caveat: in this posting, I shall refer by "we" to those of my friends, 
colleagues, and fellow students that speak Arabic or have shown interest in this
language.

In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
>ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi) writes:
> 
>>Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>>: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to
>>: *replace* Arabic with Lebanese.  The point that was made was that you
>>: people are trying to reinvent the wheel!  As to your point about
>>: Arabic and ASCII, I think you ought to look at the smart Japanese.

I think that you have a point here: would you be ready to help show that Arabic
can be used in its native form on computers as Japanese is, with a minimal 
investment in hardware and software?

>>: They were not "interested in ways to represent JAPANESE alphabet in
>>: ASCII".  Instead, they made those dummy machines understand their
>>: alphabet, which, of course, is the smarter way to do it!  Computers
>>: are good because they are *general-purpose*.  They are dummy machines
>>: that will do what you want them to do.  It should *not* be the other
>>: way around!
> 
>>No, I think *you* missed the point. The majority of us have 7 bit ASCII or
>
>Of course I did.  I was just waiting for you Ayman to set me straight!
> 
>>8 bit-capable terminals on their desks. How do you suggest we write
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and read Arabic on our terminals, without modifying/replacing the hardware
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>You actually believe people would be interested in reading writing
>Arabic using Latin characters, aren't you?  This is really beginning
>to sound like a good comedy.  Ayman, just because you and other
>people think it is a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
>characters, that does *not* mean everybody else is interested.  I
>hope this will not shock you now that I have seen *we* and *majority*
>being consistenly used in your post.

The majority of us are interested in using Arabic on the Net using the technique
available to that same majority. When a better technique will be practical, 
that is available and affordable, we will most probably use it.
> 
>As to your problem of reading and writing Arabic on a terminal, it 
>sounds to me more like a software problem rather than a hardware as
>you are trying to imply.  I think the solution would probably require 
>some researched mapping techniques between codes & fonts.

I think that you are right. This opinion is based on the existence of Russian 
and Hebrew software for editing mailing and "newsing". 
> 
>Now, you do need good terminals, ones which would support the graphical
>display of different fonts (eg Arabic).  A Mac, Sun, Spark, Dec, IBM... 
>workstation would definitely have these capabilities.  What kind
>of a lousy terminal are you using anyway?  And, what makes you think
>that the majority of people have the same terminal as you!?!?

The majority of us have mainly access to terminal/terminal emulators that are 
VT-100 compatible. This excludes the use of any character set other than ASCII.

>One more thing, I did not see any comment from you on why you think the 
>Japanese did not modify their alphabet so that they can write Japanese
>using ASCII codes!  Could it be because they want to preserve their
>alphabet/language and not let a little obstacle such as the ASCII codes
>prevent them from doing that?  Or is it because they lacked the minds to 
>invent an AlpahaJap?  What do you think Ayman?

There is an AlephJap. It is commonly used by foreigners and students of the
Japanese language who do not know the Japanese alphabets and Chinese pictograms.
It is much simpler than AlephLeb, as the original phonetics are simpler than the
Arabic ones. I doubt that is of much use among the native speakers -maybe when
a Japanese editor is not available?-.

> 
>>and software, which the majority of us are not interested in doing?
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>I am not sure what is the psychological factor that makes you Ayman
>think that when you express an opinion, it would be that of a majority!

The majority of us are either poor students, many in poor universities/colleges,
those that are working might not be ready to invest to much in hardware.
This leaves the software side if we can find/make it freeware/shareware.

When do we start?    :)

>>--
>>Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
> 
>Khaled

alex khalil  alex@dt.uh.edu
U. of Houston-Downtown
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon