From: mani@subversion.Berkeley.EDU (Mani Varadarajan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: EVR - Part II (Atheism); also, caste and the Tamils
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:50:43
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
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Reply-To: mani@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
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In-reply-to: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca's message of Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:40:43 GMT

I for one am regularly disgusted with those in this group,
including Meenan, who blame brahmins for all the caste
problems, for varna-ashrama dharma for creating the innumerable
castes, when there is clear evidence that the ``indigenous''
Tamil peoples have had as much to do with these caste taboos as
any brahmins have (which is not to say that brahmins are less
indigenous than other Tamilians).

In article <Bt37rv.6zp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu) writes:
   In article <16AUG199209302886@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu> shivakl@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu (LAKSHMANAN SHIVAKUMAR) writes:

   >a scapegoat.  KRISHNA NEVER PREACHED CASTEISM AS IT IS BEING
   >FOLLOWED TODAY.  

   I beg to differ.
   What makes you think that the word "varna" used in tha Bhagavad Gita is
   based on one's work/gunas/etc and not on one's birth ?  In fact, 
   the Bhagavad Gita is pretty clear about the fact that it is talking 
   about a caste system based on one's birth.  For example, 
	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   look closely at the following verses:

   --------------------------------------------------------------------
   Chapter I:41,42

   [...]

   To me at least, from these verses, it is clear that BG is talking about
   a caste system based exclusively on one's birth as that found in the 
   present day India.

Meenan, I have repeatedly made the point that these verses are
no proof that the Gita preaches caste in its abhorrent form.
Why do you constantly ignore the fact that it is Arjuna who
says these words, and the fact that Krishna *never* endorses
these views? In fact, the raises the whole level of the
conversation to a higher plane, when he speaks of the uplifting
of the soul and the union of God and humankind.

   >NEITHER KRISHNA NOR THE VEDAS PREACHED UNTOUCHABILITY.  These

   Have you read the Purusha-suktha or Manu's code ?  (FYI Even the BG uses
   the word candala)

Not true. Where is ``candala'' used in the Gita? It contains
the word ``svapaka'' = dog-eater (I think you, being a big fan
of the Kural, would find dog-eating an abhorrent activity), but
*never* candala.  Neither does the Purusha-sukta, of which you
seem to be very ignorant.

   These Vedic rituals involves the slaughter of cows, horses and
   even human beings (purusha-medha yagas) in the thousands.

   Meenan Vishnu

The above paragraph is very interesting, considering that at no
major South Indian temple (the ones apparently dominated by
brahmin priests) can one find animal sacrifice; nor can one
find such activities at any South Indian Vedic ritual (I am
admittedly ignorant about Northern practices).

Where *can* one find animal sacrifice? This is not a judgment
on these communities, but just a statement of fact, that these
sacrifices are predominantly found in the tribal religions and
Mariyamman temples of the Tamil region.  I'm sorry, but the
ethic of ahimsa found in the Kural is not practiced by
non-Vedic Tamilians, as much as Meenan would like the rest of
the world believe.

Now, back to caste.  Let's travel in time back to the days of
the Sangam poets, when so-called Vedic and brahmin influence is
minimal.  This, even the most ardent Tamil purists say,
reflects the days of the ``true'' Tamil culture.  If Meenan had
done his homework, he would have found that the references to
the ``ceri'' or untouchable section of town, is found even
there; that the blood and gore he associates with the Vedas are
very prominent in ancient Tamil rituals; that the taboos he
would like to attribute to varna-ashrama dharma were all the
more evident.  Meenan, do you really think that all the
superstitions regarding barbers, leather, etc., come only from
the brahmins? Rather, it's as much a part of the entire Tamil
tradition as is the Kural! This is almost undeniable.  The fact
is that caste existed in some form well before the Vedas were
dominant in Tamilnadu, and the brahmins just happened to fit
within this system easily, since they were a well-defined
group. 

I will be very glad to provide references to the poems and
other ancient Tamil literature.  All you have to do is ask me.

Yours,
Mani
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:943 alt.culture.kerala:149