HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:51:31 GMT

In article <BzqAp4.L6I@umassd.edu>, sodonnell@UMASSD (Sandy O'Donnell) writes:
>In article <lewchuk.725051453@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>>
>>Then what is the Flame of Anor that Gandalf wields?  The fire of this
>>greater god or the Third Ring?
>>
>>					Michael Lewchuk
>>					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
> The secret fire: The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and
>life to the Creation of Iluvatar. It was this light, also called
>the flame of Anor that Gandalf served and the evil followers of
>Melkor and Sauron envied and feared. Probably also the same as the
> Flame Imperishable......from my Guide to Middle Earth

As I recall, there is a passage in a volume of the _History of Middle Earth_
(or perhaps in _Unfinished Tales_, but I don't think so), in which the fates of
the three Silmarils are summarized:  The one borne by Earendil for Air, the one
hurled into the sea by the last scion of the House of Feanor (sorry, but I'm
writing from the office and only remember an initial "D," probably incorrectly)
for that element, and the one that fell into a crack in the earth during a
battle which fell to the center of the earth.

This last is referred to as the Secret Fire.

As for the Flame of Anor:  That's the Sun, folks, opposed to Udun "Shadow."
Nothing hard about it at all.  The Sun, after all, was introduced after a long
period of nought but (weak) starlight, and is precisely the correct weapon and
threat to use against a creature of the Enemy.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (dragon-monster)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: 31 Dec 1992 05:09:56 GMT
Organization: University of California - Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu
Summary: Ents are not trees
Keywords: Ents, trees, dwarves, Silmarillion


In article <lewchuk.725777372@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) 
writes:

>Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) writes:

>>Well, how about the Ents/Alliance against the Huorns/Sauron...some
>>Huorns were known to be 'black-hearted' and 'rotten' (Old Man Willow),
>>so it wouldn't be hard to imagine them fighting for Sauron.  I realize
>>Ents and Huorns are two different races, but perhaps they had the same
>>roots. (ooo, terrible pun) ;-)

[stuff deleted]

>Ents and Huorns are NOT two different "races".  They are both sentient
>trees of the same nature.  Ents are becoming Huornish and Huorns are becoming
>Entish as they "awaken" or "go to sleep", and this is happening all the time,
>at least according to Fangorn.
>
You are incorrect in assuming that Ents are trees.  They were no more
trees than dwarves were rocks.  This is outlined in the Silmarillion
where it states that Aule made the dwarves, and Yavanna made the
"shepherds of the trees", and proclaimed that they would never get along.


-- 
 the one, the only, the big n growly  |  If one blows fire against the wind,
 Dragon Monster!  Rawr! Rawr! Rawr!   |   one must take care not to get the
========>bafta@ucscb.ucsc.edu<========|         smoke in one's eyes.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell)
Subject: Re: Elves and death (was Re: "Passing away" into the West)
Organization: NCR Corp., Columbia SC
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 13:30:10 GMT

>What isn't clear to me is why the elves have any fear of death.
>F'r'instance, why do they go to all the trouble of maintaining
>the havens and building ships to return to the West? Why not just
>fall on their swords?  Cheaper, quicker, safer.
>-- 
>Andrew Solovay    

Because an elf does not decide how long he or she stays in the Halls of
Mandos- Mandos does. I suspect that such a cheap, cowardly, and pointless
death would land one a seat next to Feanor's!

Feadin
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:12:07 GMT

In <1992Dec17.213445.24835@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

>	Actually, the term "shieldmaiden" appears a couple of times--  and
>I agree it does suggest the possibility that there were "fighting woman" in
>Rohan.  However, there are no other "shieldmaidens" anywhere in the text of
>LOTR.  No women ride with Eomer's company in the battle outside of Fangorn,
>no women go off with Theoden's armies to battle against Saruman, and no women
>(other than Eowyn, of course) with the Rohirrim to do battle in Gondor. There
>is clearly only one shieldmaiden in LOTR, and that shieldmaiden is Eowyyn.

I agree.  Evidence of this can be found in Imrahil's words on III,
147:

    And rising he looked then on Eowyn and was amazed.  'Surely, here is a
    woman?" he said.  'Have even the women of the Rohirrim come to war in
    our need?'

And from the way the Riders answer him: 'Nay! Only one.'

And if there *were* sheildmaidens in Rohan, it would have been easier
for Eowyn to disguise herself as an anonymous shieldmaiden than to
pretend to be a man.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire auditorium		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very cold mathom.
 |warren@      But the ***
/ nysernet.org is not paranoid at all.
From: friesend@jester.usask.ca (Darryl Friesen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Date: 1 Jan 1993 21:47:31 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
NNTP-Posting-Host: jester.usask.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]

Michael P. Colburn (Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu) wrote:
> In article <1hsj0nINNiib@access.usask.ca>
> friesend@jester.usask.ca (Darryl Friesen) writes:
> 
> >  - The illustrations are very poor (in my opinion). Many of them seem
> >     'cheaply' done (ie. like you might find in a text book; black plus
> >     one other color, little detail).  Some of the pen and ink sketches
> >     are better though.
> 
> I sorta agree here, but for different reasons.  The illustrators used
> several different mediums (lithograph, pen and ink, charcoal, etc) and
> each illustrator (there are 8) have their own styles (impressionist,
> realist, etc).  IMHO, this detracts from the reader efforts to
> 'picture' Middle Earth as one world.  The contrasting mediums and
> styles almost give one the impression there is more than one Middle
> Earth.  I think the book would have been more effective had there only
> been one or two illustrators (like the illustrator (Robin Wood??) who
> did "The People of Pern".  BTW, I don't agree that the illustrations
> were 'very poor' (true, some were very simplistic, but that doesn't
> necessarily make them bad)...IMHO, many were inappropriate for the
> reasons I stated above.

You're quite right.  While I feel the illustrations were a 'very poor'
representation of Middle-earth (as you stated above) calling the
illustrations themselves very poor was unjustified.  I was just so
dissapointed in the artwork as whole.  The text (what little I've read
so far) seemed quite good and very informative, unfortunatly the
illustrations don't (IMHO) compliment the text.  I guess each of us have
our own views on what Middle-earth and its inhabitants should look
like.  I've got both the '92 and '93 Tolkien calendars and find that
the visions of these two artists, Ted Nasmith and Alan Lee respectively,
agree with my ideas of what Middle-earth was like (for the most part
that is; Alan Lee's hobbits don't have hairy feet!) I'd have rather
seen more of these two artist's work that those lithographs. But then
again, Day didn't write the book for me did he.  :)



------------------------------------------------------------
Darryl Friesen            | Department of Computing Services
friesenda@sask.usask.ca   | University of Saskatchewan
------------------------------------------------------------
"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cameron@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Cameron Smith)
Subject: Problem with Mike Urban's Tengwar font
Organization: none
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 02:27:55 GMT
Keywords: tengwar, urban, elvish, font

The volume of traffic on this group is enormous, and I'm having
trouble keeping up -- posts expire off my system faster than I
can wade through them -- so this may have been mentioned before,
but in case not:

There are two problems with Mike Urban's Metafont implementation
of the Tengwar.  One is purely cosmetic, but the other can lead
to incorrect output.  The following TeX file documents both
problems.
==========================================================================
\nopagenumbers

\font\elvish = tengwar scaled \magstep2

This file documents two errors in Mike Urban's Tengwar font.

\bigskip

The first and more serious problem has to do with the treatment of the
``hw'' letter combination:

\bigskip

\centerline{\vbox{\baselineskip 18pt
\halign{\hfil#\quad&\elvish #\cr
the letter ``h''&h\cr
the letter ``w''&w\cr
the character {\it \'{}017}&\char'017\cr
the character {\it \'{}027}&\char'027\cr
the ligature ``hw''&hw\cr
}%
}}

\bigskip

As you see, the ``hw'' ligature generates the double-left-loop accent
instead of the {\it hwesta sindarinwa\/} character.
This comes from the following line in {\tt ligtable.mf}:

\centerline{\tt
ligtable "h": "w" =: oct"027";
}

That ought to be

\centerline{\tt
ligtable "h": "w" =: oct"017";
}

Mike evidently typed {\tt 2} for {\tt 1} in specifying this ligature.

\bigskip

The other error is invisible in ordinary use of the font.  The line in
{\tt accents.mf} that reads

{\catcode`\#=12
\centerline{\tt
beginchar (23, shortwidth, cap#, 0); "The left-loop accent (u)";
}}

ought to be

{\catcode`\#=12
\centerline{\tt
beginchar (23, shortwidth, cap#, 0); "The double left-loop accent (u')"
}}

This changes only the name of the character and doesn't affect its use,
but it might cause confusion to someone trying to read the Metafont
program.

\end
==========================================================================

If you've obtained pre-compiled PK and TFM files and don't want to
(or don't know how to) modify the Metafont code to re-generate the
fonts, the ligature problem can be fixed by using TFtoPL to create
a human-editable version of the TFM file, changing the "hw" ligature
specification, and running PLtoTF to re-create the TFM file.  The PK
file doesn't need to be changed.

I've already sent Mike email about this problem, but since the address
in the documentation for the font is several years old, I've no
guarantee that he'll receive it, so I thought I'd go ahead and post
a warning here so that nobody who tries to use this font will get
bitten by this problem.

I just discovered this this afternoon; sorry if it's old news.
I'm reluctant to suggest modifying the file that's stored in the
archives without the author's explicit approval, but perhaps this
glitch could be documented in the FAQ file until such time as a
permanent fix may be applied?

--Cameron Smith
  cameron@symcom.math.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:00:46 GMT


Hm....  Too much to quote so I'll just state some stuff...

Personally I was of the opinion that the warrior was a dying occupation in
the War of the Ring: both literal death and eventual obsolescence because,
bluntly, there was nobody to fight after the War was over.

Eowyn could have continued as a warrior-princess.  And did what?  Challenged
Shelob in a battle to the death?  Gone orc-hunting in Mordor?  There was
no real "enemy" left after the War was over.

As Faramir states, Eowyn has already "won great renown", and is accepted
as an honorable warrior in her own right.  I fail to see why it is accepted
that she "abandoned her challenge to social norms".  In effect, she made this
challenge and it was accepted: she was not regarded as just a royal servant
girl anymore.  Why did she have to take it up as a "profession" for her
"challenge" to be valid?

Tolkien also has some opinions stronger than male/female.  The war/peace issue
is one of them.  The trend is more "after war, we settle down".  Eowyn was
part of a general trend of settling down, therefore her statement is not
unusual.  After the War, Aragorn took over the Kingship and started giving
rewards to soldiers and pardons to his enemies.

In other words, I agree about the male/female "roles" but I fail to see why
you think that Eowyn "chickened out".  Tolkien made it very clear that she
did not *want* to fight in battles, thus having her continue to be a war
maiden would probably lead to the statement "and Eowyn was miserable to the
end of her days".  She was brave and competent, but lacked the blood-lust
that her brother, Eomer, had.

Ever consider that one of the few brave things one can do is give up one's
pride in one's omniscience (I'm doing this therefore it must be right) for
a better life?  In this, Eowyn faced a much greater opponent: her own ego.
I find that her statement "would you say "here comes one who tamed a wild
shieldmaiden of the North"" is invalid: Faramir did not tame her; she
finally understood (and thus tamed) herself.  She gave up killing and being
miserable for a better life with Faramir.

By the way, remember that Tolkien's characters are very human as he writes
them: to take anything they say as fact is not reasonable.  You have to
remember that characters can be misinformed or emotionally aroused enough
to not use reason.  You have to take Eowyn's statements with a grain of salt
since she is making them under duress (except for her chat with Merry).  Love
and depression do not make a good basis for rational conversation.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:57:37 GMT
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu

In article <1h4i59INN8fa@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
> [..passage from `Silmarillion' deleted..]
>Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
>am I reading too much into this passage?

Wow!  neat question!  I don't think you're reading too much into it, it
just never occurred to me that Orcs or ents might fight for a side other
than their `own'...

Cool question, but I doubt you'll find data to support an answer
anywhere, I don't think there's a whole lot of supporting data for the
battle on Dagorlad.  At least I don't recall any specific stuff...

	Mike.
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: A question
Date: 3 Jan 1993 19:10:34 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


On a local news group we got into a long discussion about who is able to 
"see" a ringwraith.  It states in TLOTR that Tom Bombadil sees Frodo when
he puts the ring on.  It is also clear the ringwraths can see Frodo during
the attack under weathertop.  The question is, who else can see him when he
wears the ring.  I believe that Gandalf could (since he is wearing one of
the three).  Based on this I deduced that G. could see Bilbo when he sneaks
up on the dwarves after escaping with the ring from the Orcs.  (He even
says something like "there is more to this thief than is apparent".)

Who else could see him?  Does the fact that G. is of the Maiar make a
difference?  i.e. could Saruman have seen him?  Could the Balrog have seen
him?  Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?  It is clear that
G. knew when F. was sitting on Amon Hen wearing the ring.  It is highly
probable that Sauron could have seen him, if he hadn't been occupied by G.
at the time.
-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:32:21 GMT

sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell) writes:
>In article <lewchuk.725051453@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>>Then what is the Flame of Anor that Gandalf wields?  The fire of this
>>greater god or the Third Ring?
> The secret fire: The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and
>life to the Creation of Iluvatar. It was this light, also called
>the flame of Anor that Gandalf served and the evil followers of
>Melkor and Sauron envied and feared. Probably also the same as the
> Flame Imperishable......from my Guide to Middle Earth
>...........................Sandy

Yes, but Gandalf says he's a SERVANT of the Secret Fire and WIELDER of the
Flame of Anor.  If Gandalf actually wielded such power, couln't he have
created life?

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Reply-To: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:28:58 GMT

In article <BzMyHA.Btp@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, rjackson@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Darkman) writes:
>In article <BzH5xt.2LA@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth) writes:
>> Ok.  I have a question that might be answered in
>> _The Silmirillian_.  What is the story of Narsil
>> and its becoming broken?  And how did there become
>> a prophecy of its being reforged?
>> 
>
>I believe that somewhere it was mentioned that Narsil was forged by Telchar.
>Thus It must have been given to Elindil before Numenor was destroyed.  He brought it with him to ME and in the Last Alliance during the seige of Mordor, Sauron came and faught with Elendil and broke Narsil.  Later on when Elrond was talking to Gandalf, E
>
>Darkman
>May the vermin from the depths of Hades arise and vomit on your eyeballs!
..
Close...I'll quote here from The Complete Guide to Middle Earth
(which cost me $2.95 back in 79)
Narsil (Q.:'sun-moon') The mighty sword of Elendil, forged by 
Telchar of Nogrod in the First Age. Narsil  broke and its light
was extinguished when Elendil fell in SA 3441 while fighting Sauron;
Isildur used the hilt to cut the One Ring from Sauron's finger.
Brought back to Arnor by Ohtar, the shards of Narsil were one of
the heirlooms of the the Line of Isildur; Elrond foretold that
the sword would not be reforged until Sauron rose again and the
One Ring was found. After the fall of the North kingdom the shards
of Narsil were kept in Imladris. Elrond presented Narsil to Aragon
II when he came of age, and on the eve of the War of the Ring the sword was
reforged and named Anduril. Called the Sword of Elendil and the
Sword or Blade that was Broken. The Elvish name carried a connotation
of 'red and white flame
..................................All that is Gold does not Glitter
....................................But Glitter sure is purtty this
......................................time of year
...............................................Sandy
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Date: 22 Dec 1992 15:26:50 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec21.193711.22812@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>
>I can't believe that the Ents would fight for Sauron, since
>Sauron had earlier destroyed the gardens of the Entwives (and
>probably destroyed all the Entwives as well).

I have some problems with that as well.  I also have problems with
the other members of the Last Alliance accepting orcs and trolls
onto their side.  However, that is the clear implication of the
passage from the Silmarillion.

All of this raises some interesting questions on whether orcs can
do good.  Is there any more on this anywhere in JRRT's writings?
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 24 Dec 92 20:56:34 GMT
 <EGDORF.92Dec16162253@zaphod.lanl.gov> <1h4l2cINN9ni@mirror.digex.com> 
 <suwandi.724959756@sfu.ca> <lewchuk.725051453@therien> 
 <BzqAp4.L6I@umassd.edu>  <lewchuk.725225541@therien>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <lewchuk.725225541@therien>
lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:

> sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell) writes:
> >In article <lewchuk.725051453@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
> >>Then what is the Flame of Anor that Gandalf wields?  The fire of this
> >>greater god or the Third Ring?
> > The secret fire: The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and
> >life to the Creation of Iluvatar. It was this light, also called
> >the flame of Anor that Gandalf served and the evil followers of
> >Melkor and Sauron envied and feared. Probably also the same as the
> > Flame Imperishable......from my Guide to Middle Earth
> >...........................Sandy
> 
> Yes, but Gandalf says he's a SERVANT of the Secret Fire and WIELDER of the
> Flame of Anor.  If Gandalf actually wielded such power, couln't he have
> created life?
> 
> 					Michael Lewchuk
> 					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA

If you take what Sandy says here literally, Gandalf couldn't actually
create life with the flame of Anor (or the secret fire), but rather he
could give life and substance to any of Iluvatar's creations.  From
what Michael says, I can't see how they can be the same.  Anyway, it
seems to me if Gandalf really was wielding this kind of power, he could
have blown the balrog right into the outter void with his old buddy
Morgorth.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:08:15 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
>	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
>	the Elves only.
>Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
>am I reading too much into this passage?

Based on Fangorn's statement about evil forests I would think that there
were evil ents at one time or another.  Although I don't know about orcs.
It is hard to imagine orcs fighting for the West, although I guess it
could be so that an orc was treacherous enough to fight against Sauron.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien