HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 02:52:18 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes: 
| In article <1992Aug13.121940.2832@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
| 
| > I guess this will demonstrate which side of the prescriptive/descriptive
| > fence I'm on, but I just hate this.
| 
| > In every grocery store in the country:
| 
| > "Express line - 12 items or less"
| 
| Well, now you've stepped in it.  I agree that it is wrong to
| say "less items," but when the "less" is on the end, the
| phrase could be construed to imply "12 items or less (than
| 12 items)," which seems acceptable to me because of its
| hearkening to the mathematical usage.  So no, it's not time
| to lose the distinction, but I'm not bothered by the grocery
| signs.  It would not give me any pain to see them changed
| to "12 items or fewer" though.

(I intended to post this, but instead replied directly.  The bad news
is that I *hate* the newsreader that I have to use from home, it's late,
and I'm tired.  The good news is that this newsreader, for all of its
faults, keeps a copy of the last thing I sent out so that I can just
suck it in here without having to retype it.  My apologies, Mr. Slagle,
for cluttering up your personal mailbox.)

Sorry, but to my ear, "less than 12 items" sounds incorrect, too.
It should be "fewer than 12 items".  "Items" is still the object,
whether it comes at the beginning or end of the phrase.

I may have "less than a pound of bananas", but I have "fewer than
5 bananas".  Turning this around (and changing it slightly) gives
me "a pound or less", but "5 or fewer".

Hearkening to the mathematical usage is fine when I'm discussing
numbers as abstract entities, as in A + B < 5 ("A plus B is less
than 5"), because we aren't discussing some number OF anything, but
are instead discussing the number itself.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|The meaning of the complement form of a switch    |
|can be determined by complementing the meaning    |
|of the switch.                                    |
|                     --Ada Reference Manual       |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:44:42 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert):
:In article <BsvEqn.MrC@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:
:
:>And exactly what are we saving the Queen from? ("Oh, no! The Queen's
:>canoe is about to go over the falls! God, please save the Queen!!").
:>What is the construction SUPPOSED to mean?
:
:From her subjects, I've always thought. Or was it from the taxman?
:Anyway, He has done a good job so far.

Indeed: isn't the Royal Family exempt from (certain?) taxes?

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
They spell it "da Vinci" and pronounce it "da Vinchy".  Foreigners
always spell better than they pronounce.
                -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dbeachle@teal.csn.org (Dave Beachley)
Subject: More (or less) Fewer violations
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:38:24 GMT

To add a few words to this thread: 
This a.m. I stopped by Burger King for breakfast and received my
meal in their "New Earth-Happy Packaging" (recycled paper bag instead
of styro-boxes).
 
These were the words printed on the bag:  "You'll probably notice that
our sandwiches now come served in paper wrapping instead of a box. 
That's because we figure the world could probably use 15,000 *less*
tons of trash a year.  And less trash means *less* trucks to carrry it.
Which means less gas and a lot less air pollution...[rest not included].
 
    
The print style was  block handwriting, the kind used a lot in
eco-conscious or child rights protection ad campaigns. 
(I know my English is a little incoherent right now;
my fingers are having a little trouble controlling a Mountain Dew
high.)  

Anyway, while I applaud BK's move to cleaner packaging, I found
it necessary to call the printed 800-number customer relations 
department(1 800 YES 1 800).  I told them that I was very
supportive of their move, but found it disturbing that one of two
things happened: 1) the big advertising consultants were 
ignorant as to the difference between Less and Fewer; or 2) the
big advertising consultants purposely used incorrect grammar to
make some effect (making it seem more personal, for instance).
I told the lady that, combined with the handwriting style, these
misplaced lesses gave an effect to the text of a 1st-grader being
the author.  

If you get the same impression, give the number a calll.  The lady was
friendly and took my name and number along with the
notes I heard her taking.


-Yash Holbrook

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 10:53:51 GMT




In a previous article, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) says:
>
>I was once standing in the office of someone from Oregon.  Another lady
>came in to speak to us about some issue, and after it was resolved, I asked
>her if she was from South Carolina.  She said that she was, and we had a 
>brief discussion about places of origin and so forth.  After she left,
>the first lady asked me how I knew she was from South Carolina, and I 
>told her that she had a South Carolina accent.  She informed me that in
>Oregon, "you're either southern or you're not".


Here in Cleveland, too.  Not only that, but southern and black sound alike
to most people, so white people from the south get a crash course in
bigotry if they talk to rental or real-estate agents over the phone. 

Bonita Kale
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer (supermarkets)
Date: 16 Aug 92 11:59:41 GMT
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.

In article <1992Aug15.215238.680@mala.bc.ca>,
epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) writes:
>Does "up to 10" mean "fewer than 10," or "10 or fewer?"

I'd say it means the latter.


>On a (barely) related note:  With my last paycheck I got a voucher that
>was to be redeemed "after August 10th."  I patiently waited until the 11th
>before turning it in.  It turned out that I could have redeemed it on the 
>10th.

You didn't ask, but I'd say the voucher lied.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to the natural numbers, every last one of them.]
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:19:13 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rmshair@chgvmic1.vnet.ibm.com writes:

>>Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"


You're asking _this_ group??



-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and as far as I'm
concerned, happy campers you will always be."
                  --J. Danforth Quayle in American Samoa
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: Taking Bush Apart
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:46:30 GMT

In article <57560032@hpscit.sc.hp.com>,
fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher) writes:
>dks@MIT.EDU (dks) writes:
>>If you find that you have no reaction at all, I envy you.
>    [quote from _Economist_ deleted]                                 
>
>I always manage to get into trouble responding to your posts, Dhanesh,
>but here goes anyway.

Sorry about that!  I don't know if it's any consolation, but you're not the
only one I've [ever] corrupted or turned towards the Dark Side of the Force.
With my posts, it's definitely a case of "Don't do as I do _or_ as I say."


>I'm not sure what response you're looking for or expect.

An honest one.  My counter-response is in your mail-box, much to the
delight of everyone else.  Thanks for writing!


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to James Baker's brain stem.]

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@MIT.EDU (dks)
Subject: Taking Bush Apart
Organization: Department of Deconstruction Engineering, MIT.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 21:09:09 EST
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The following appears in this week's _Economist_ (Aug. 8-14).
If you have any reaction whatsoever, I'd appreciate your
sharing it.  If your reaction is such that you think it'd
be out of place in a.u.e., please send it to <dks@mit.edu>.
If you find that you have no reaction at all, I envy you.


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to Jacques Derrida, amateur philosopher.]

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Deconstruction and the White House
----------------------------------

AS GEORGE BUSH contemplates the prospect of changing careers,
he might consider returning to his _alma mater_, Yale University.
Most politicians who retire to academia find their natural slots in
departments of government or politics; Mr Bush may be an exception.
His real home is surely Yale's department of comparative literature.

It is there that the theory of deconstruction, which holds that words
have no fixed meaning, has flowered most extravagantly.  One literary
critic, David Lehman, argues that, "sooner or later the initiate into
the mysteries of deconstruction must prepare to visit a linguistic
abyss."  Mr Bush has already visited.  Consider, for example, his
greeting to tourists in Lafayette Park:

        "Hey, hey, nihaoma.  Hey, yeah, yeah.
         Heil, heil -- a kind of Hitler salute."

Or dwell on the maxim offered by Paul De Man, the late doyen of the
Yale school of deconstructionists.  De Man held that rhetoric "allows
for two incompatible mutually self-destructive points of view, and
therefore puts an insurmountable obstacle in the way of any reasoning
or understanding."

Now consider two celebrated Bushisms:  "People understand that Congress
bears a greater responsibility for this -- but I'm not trying to assign
blame"; or "All I was doing was appealing to you for an endorsement, not
suggesting you endorse it."  Even if Mr Bush is refused a post at Yale,
he could stay on as an object for study.


END OF DOCUMENT

Copyright 1992, The Economist.

Reproduced here without commercial
intent under the "fair use" provisions
of U. S. copyright law.
From: ted@physics2 (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Madam // Cut your head hair
Date: 15 Aug 1992 01:32:13 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics2.berkeley.edu

In article <9208142144.AA02346@autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu> xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu (XiaoFei Wang) writes:
>Two questions for 
>alt.usage.english readers, 
>
>1) What is the word to use to address a married ( elderly ) woman ?
>   I used to use Madam as I learned from my home country. But I was
>   told that Madam means also a woman who manages a brothel. I am confused
>   why quiet opposite meanings are assigned to the same word. 
>   I am told that 'Mam' is the proper word, but I failed to find it from
>   my American Heritage Dictionary. 

In my experience, "Ma'am" is used all over the southern U.S., but rarely 
elsewhere.  (I'm speaking only for the U.S., since I'm a typical chauvinist
USAmerican.)  I don't know of any other term in common use in other parts
of the U.S. 

Perhaps your A.H. Dictionary lists the word with the spelling "Ma'am"?
If not, this seems to me to be a striking omission, as it's a fairly common
expression.

>2) I saw a sign here in Buffalo 'cut your head hair'. I wonder if this
>   is considered by the alt.usage.english readers as redundancy. 
>   ( For people who live in Buffalo, it is on the corner of Eggert and
>   Bailey. ) 

In principle, of course, there could be establishments that specialized in
cutting hair from other areas of the body.  If they existed, then of
course the usage would not be redundant.  It seems to me that such an 
establishment would be more likely to exist here in Berkeley than in
Buffalo, though.

Redundant or not, it's an odd usage.

-Ted


Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 12:52:06 GMT




In a previous article, dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) says:
> that you only ever encounter (and test) Brits and Americans.



That's the third "only ever" in this thread.  When did that start?  Doesn't
it sound odd to anyone but me?  (I would use "only".)

I've heard it in speech, but was under the impression that it was an Ohio
thing--in fact, an Ohio -errror-.

Bonita Kale

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: questions questions
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:43:38 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of peterw@spider.co.uk (Peter Woodhouse):
:1) offen - as if the t didn't exist

/'O f@n/  (probably not /'Of @n/)

:2) ORf-en - (or maybe AWFen) the pompous (or as we would say posh) way, with
:	    a long first syllable.

/'Orf @n/ or maybe /'Or f@n/ or even /'O:r f@n/ 

:3) off-ten - both syllables are about the same length

/'Of t@n/


In my dialect: #1 sounds right, #2 sounds risibly pompous, and #3 sounds
like an uneducated hick.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist


Eschew polysyllabic glossolalia.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Toeing Victory!
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Distribution: all
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:05:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.022554.29394@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>I learned the phrase "toe the line" as a description of what happened in 
>>Parliament.  That is, one would "toe the line" -- anybody know whether there
>>is a physical line involved? -- of one's political party to identify oneself
>>with the party's views, etc.  

According to Partridge, "toe the line" means 

	To appear in an identification parade, from ca. 1910 -- 2. to conform:
	call 'if you join the Army, you'll have to toe the line.'  Ex infantry
	drill.  P.B. since mid-C.20, in very gen use and with specified
	application, as in 'these place-seeking MPs are all the same--no
	independence, just toeing the party line all through.'

>Right; that's called the party line.  (So is a phone with extensions in
>several homes; I wonder which came first.  Don't have an OED around.)

RHD II dates "Party Line" from 1825-1835 in America.

As for telephones, that term came about in the 1880's, when your phone #
might have been 832C, and your neighbor might have been 832D. To ring
you, the operator would connect the calling party to jack 832, and tap
the appropriate party letter on her ringing key (in morse code).
As for being awakened by your neighbor's calls, it didn't matter much
since the exchange usually closed at 9 p.m. anyway.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
From: peterw@spider.co.uk (Peter Woodhouse)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: questions questions
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:12:33 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Aug18.194806.5503@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>In article <9208181722.AA13431@sumac09.cray.com> jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond) writes:
>>
>>>"Often" with the t is pompous and inappropriate for the language we speak.
>>>You don't pronounce the t in listen or soften, and besides.  If you pronounce
>>>the t, then the gag in Pirates of Penzance doesn't work.
>>
>>Speak for yourself, please.  I pronounce the `t' in often and consider it
>>neither pompous nor inappropriate.  I also pronounce the `t' in eaten,
>>marten, shorten and whiten.
>
I agree with Jeff here.  Some people do, some people don't. It's one way of
helping determine which part of the UK you are from.

>Do you also pronounce the t in "soften" ?  If not, why not?
Yes.  If you pronounced it without the t wher I come from, everyone would 
think you mean soft one.
>
>--
>Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 

Peter "You should speak proper, like what I does" Woodhouse
-- 
Spider Software                                 E-mail:  peterw@spider.co.uk
Spider Park, Stanwell Street                    Phone :  +44 31 555 5166
Edinburgh, Scotland
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi Williams)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Originator: dewi@bcrks78
Reply-To: dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi Williams)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:24:54 GMT


In article <1992Aug11.235503.26716@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
> In article <1992Aug11.210423.4859@news.eng.convex.com>,
> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
> >From the keyboard of dks@MIT.EDU (dks):
> >:Some USAns pronounce "route" to rhyme with "out," i.e., without
> >:reference to its origin.  Is there a geographic pattern to this
> >:"new" pronunciation or is it better correlated with something else?
> >
> >What do you mean "new"?
> 
> You're right, of course.  "New" is a relative term.
> 
In Chaucer's time the spelling was "rowte", so it was probably
pronounced that way in England.

... Dewi
From: nee1@quads.uchicago.edu (barbara helen need)
Subject: Re: NPR puzzle (and another random question)
Reply-To: nee1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 12:39:58 GMT

The question came up about what past tense forms are also present tense
forms (like lie/lay). (Just a note, the reasons for such patterns are
historical: the past tense of lie and the present tense of lay (to cause
to lie) are built on the same stem (like fall/fell, sit/set (though in
the latter pair sound change has intervened).

But Dennis Baron offered some pairs that I am confused about.


quote:
The ones that come to mind are

loan/lend  and
sit/set

could work/wreak worked/wrought be the third?

No, it must be go/wend

If I remember my grammar categories, these are like preterite/present
verbs.  Is that it?
end of quote.
Now are these present tense forms with the same past tenses? loan (as a verb
) and lend do not have the same past tense in my dialect, nor is lend
the past tense of loan. I have loaned and lent. I think that the verbs
they were asking for are of the sort I mentioned above. I wish I could
think of a third one.

However, what actually prompted me to respond was the last comment:
the one about preterite-presents. I am particularly interested in these
verbs and so I feel strongly about the use (and mis-use) of the term.
No, neither what Dennis Baron described, nor what NPR seems to me to want
can be described as preterite-presents. go/went is suppletion. fall/fell
is historical accident. Preterite present verbs are verbs whose
current (at some given historical time, say Old ENglish or even Modern
English) present tense form comes from a historically past tense form.
Modern English _must_ (at least is my dialect) cannot have past tense
reference. It is historically the past tense of a now lost verb _motan_.
_ought_ is also a historical past form--but the present tense form
still exists: owe (and in fact _Own_ is from the past participle).

All of the Germanic languages have such forms (as do some other IE
languages like Greek). One strong example is German wissen Greek oida
both meaning 'to know'. They are related to French voir 'to see' being
from past tense forms (If you have seen something, you know it).

Barbara Need

-- 
Bitnet:                   uclnee1@uchimvs1
Internet:         nee1@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:57:13 EST
 <1992Aug17.225133.1764@midway.uchicago.edu> <1992Aug18.095458.3563@desire.wright.edu> <1992Aug18.163433.6659@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Wright State University 



In article <1992Aug18.163433.6659@midway.uchicago.edu>, 
goer@quads.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) writes:

>> thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:

>> [on second thought, no one wants to see what I wrote here! -- Ed.]

>> Why Richard, who *are* these "we" & "our" you refer to?

> (Richard waxes contritely):
> Do you think I should have added smileys?

I thought we had outlawed smileys in this group! (Actually I had read your
post whilst mentally inserting smileys.) I have taken to ObSmly -- 
"Obligatory Smiley" -- instead.  You'll notice that it's in my reply 
to the first post.

But what do you expect from the champion of "waitron"?  

(you-know-what goes here)

-----ted hayes
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english