HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: slbfn@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: The Real A4000 Argument.  Barrett Bashing, Too... :)
Date: 9 Oct 92 09:10:12 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Oct9.000807.17103@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>, mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
> In <1992Oct7.194433.7333@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
>>   No.  The A3000 is far more advanced than the A4000 in terms of non-
>>interlaced display resolution.  And the A3000 offers most of the expandability
>>of the A4000.  The only thing that the A4000 has that the A3000 does not have
>>is the 24-bit video slot.  

 And 68040, AGA, IDE (ok, but the A3000 doesn't have it), OS3.0, etc...

 If someone were to purchase an A3000...   $1450.00
 And "upgrade" to A4000 stats

             1.  68040 card                $1800.00 
             2.  Graphics card             $ 600.00
                                          -----------
                                           $3850.00

 That is $1000 more than what an A4000 is selling for.
 Also note that you still don't get 2000fps, faster access to chipram,
 etc... You would get better graphics in terms of 24bit with the graphics
 card, but it would not be as compatable as the AGA, and certainly not as
 fast.

 By purchasing the A4000, a user gets a higher end machine than what is
 possible by upgrading an A3000.  And getting it for cheaper than anything
 else on the market.

 The A4000 is the most logical computer to buy.  The only thing that needs
 to be done is getting some professional AGA software out there.

> Marc, please stop posting desinformation or leave that in .advocacy.

 Agreed.  Marc is becoming the lowest scum on the pond.  If his arguments
 were true, I would value him.  But there is no room for liars on the net.
 I wonder how many friends he has... I personaly do not like liars.

Greetings,

	Travis Carter
	slbfn@cc.usu.edu
 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Michael van Elst
> UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
> Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
>                                 "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: cheungc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Carson Cheung)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Questions On KCS/Bitcon High Density Disk Drives
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:53:23 GMT

Does anybody have info on the KCS high density drive?

Will it require a mountlist entry for use on an A500 Plus?
If it doesn't then will I be able to boot from the high density drive?
Is it compatible with the Commodore High Density Drive?

Replies by e-mail please

Thanks

Carson Cheung
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: jorngh@dhhalden.no (JORN GUNNAR HALONEN)
Subject: A4000 + AIBB = ERROR ?
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:33:02 GMT


I just saw a report generated by AIBB 4.5 on an A4000
and it said that the chip ram had 'Bus Port Size = 16 Bit'.

What's that suppose to mean ?

*JORN* (email : jorngh@sofus.dhhalden.no)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: martini@heaven7.in-berlin.de (Martin P. Ibert)
Subject: Re: More A2024 Questions?
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:23:23 GMT
Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany

lassa@cbmvax.commodore.com (Paul Lassa) writes:
> In article <1992Oct8.180723.1463@walter.cray.com> stiles@cray.com writes:
> >What's the screen size of the A2024?
> The screen size is 1024 x 800.
JPW. Under UNIX, it is 1024x1024. I'm not sure about AmigaDOS (ugh!), but it's
1008x1024 there, I think.
-- 
___*___  Martin P. Ibert - Westendallee 100 d, D-1000 Berlin 19 - +4930-3056541
=======  E-mail to martini@{heaven7.{in-berlin.de|sub.org}|cloud9.in-berlin.de}
||| |||  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
||| |||  ------ Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die ------
From: wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Art Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy an A3000 now?
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:56:15 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <35813@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>Some folks still buy A2000s.
Heck, even A500's too, Dave!

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William "Art" Warner (317-497-1946)      //\
ex Amiga Student On-Campus Consultant  \X/--\miga makes it happen!
wwarner@en.ecn.purdue.edu             IBM, Apple, Sun, & Next make it expensive!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: brianc@iastate.edu (Brian J Cerveny)
Subject: Re: Monitors for A4000 - suggestions?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:37:18 GMT

In <1992Oct9.211021.3775@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:

>   No, it does not.  The "promotion" feature of the A4000 is software-only.
>The A4000 has no hardware force 15Khz screens to 31Khz.  If a program such as
>an old utility or game insists on opening an interlaced 15Khz screen, the
>screen WILL be opened at 15Khz interlaced, and there will be nothing you will
>be able to do about it.

Then why on earth don't you run around blaming the PROGRAMMERS that clearly
did NOT practice proper procedures for interfacing the operating system?
THEY are the ones that screwed up, and if they are registered developers
then they should have known better.  As far as I'm concerned, Commodore can
just tell the programmers, "We told you so!"

Go bash the poor programming practices, not the computer designed with all
of the proper programming principles in mind.

Oh, and any of you Amiga programmers that still have doubts on whether or
not it is really necessary to follow the programming guidelines, please
take note and learn something here.

>The A4000 has no hardware force 15Khz screens to 31Khz.  If a program such as
>an old utility or game insists on opening an interlaced 15Khz screen, the
>screen WILL be opened at 15Khz interlaced, and there will be nothing you will
>be able to do about it.

Except complain to the people who improperly wrote the software you are using!
-- 
   // Brian J. Cerveny (brianc@iastate.edu)
 \X/  Disclaimer:  The views expressed above are my own.  So there.
From: am019@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Fred Algarin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Replacing internal floppy on A2500 - help, please
Date: 7 Oct 1992 09:27:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


The problem is that you have replaced the ribbon cable to the 
drive incorrectly, take the ribbon cable of and replace it
the other way, you will see that this makes it work just fine
-- 
Fred Algarin                         am019@cleveland.freenet.edu
Omega Project
From: FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Monitors for A4000 - suggestions?
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 11:57:23 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
  <KENTD.92Oct7131900@zappa.FtCollins.NCR.com>,
 <1992Oct9.211021.3775@news.iastate.edu>
  <1992Oct12.124856.1388@msus1.msus.edu>

This just in from Electronic Design News:

27 in. color monitor

Misubishi Electronics America
Professional Electronics Div.
800 Cottontail Lane
Somerset, NJ  08873
908.302.2855   FAX: 908.563.0713

AM-2752A color monitor.  compatible with SECAM, NTSC and PAL video.
15.5 to 39KHz horizontal and 45 to 100 Hz vertical scan rates.

Dynamic beam balancing to maintain focus at screen edge.  $3700


Seems a bit expensive and a touch large for a computer monitor but I
thought the info. worth passing on.  Now, O Video Gurus.  If this baby
came in a 15 or 17 inch size for about $800 street price, could it be
hooked up to A2000/3000/4000 machines?

Dana Bourgeois @ cup.portal.com
From: bill@src4src.linet.org (Bill Lanides)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: The Real A4000 Argument.  Barrett Bashing, Too... :)
Date: 11 Oct 92 15:13:58 GMT
Organization: The Source for Source Pub Access Unix

In article <1992Oct9.091012.59559@cc.usu.edu> slbfn@cc.usu.edu writes:
>
> And 68040, AGA, IDE (ok, but the A3000 doesn't have it), OS3.0, etc...
>
> If someone were to purchase an A3000...   $1450.00
> And "upgrade" to A4000 stats
>
>             1.  68040 card                $1800.00 
>             2.  Graphics card             $ 600.00
>                                          -----------
>                                           $3850.00


Those figures are not exactly right and if you talk about used A3000s
(Which is fair market value) I can get a 3000/16 for $500 and an 040 with
2megs for under $999.. we're talking under $1500.  Of course, it still might
not be worth it if AGA becomes widely supported.
My whole problem with the A4000 is:
-Commodore says there won't be any trade-in's for another 9 months!
-Commodore says they are working on a 16-bit sound Amiga with 33mhz 040 and
they can't guarantee the A4000 will be upgradable to it.
-Commodore says they will be releasing new models like the A500 & A2000 but
with AGA chips.. but not for at least 1 year. (They also say they have no
plans to discontinue the A500 or A2000.)
-Commodores marketing is down the tubes..
 The flyer on the A4000?  I could do better in PageStream!

Anyway, we will have to wait any see.

> That is $1000 more than what an A4000 is selling for.
> Also note that you still don't get 2000fps, faster access to chipram,
> etc... You would get better graphics in terms of 24bit with the graphics
> card, but it would not be as compatable as the AGA, and certainly not as
> fast.

What do you mean "2000fps"???  They'd be lucky to get 30!


>Greetings,
>
>	Travis Carter
>	slbfn@cc.usu.edu
> 

-- 

      -Bill Lanides-        |  Tracing the lines that god drew...
 -bill@src4src.linet.org-   |  ...all the way back!
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Date: 12 Oct 92 05:17:56 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Oct12.032156.9990@sol.cs.wmich.edu> 22black@sol.cs.wmich.edu writes:
> 
> 
> Well i do have a question on this IDE drive.  Would I have any problems 
> transfering files over the serial port  and tranversing across the IDE drive?
> I know with my a500 and gvp scsi drive, I will get errors on the transfer of
> just 2400baud modem.  I don't really mind the fact the a4000 comes with an
> IDE if it is better or even for where the serial port is concerned. 
> However I will be in need for a scsi card for my syquest drive, and hope
> to not have as much problems the serial port.

This is basically a device driver issue.  There is no real good reason
(hardware guy speaking) whey the IDE driver transfer code shouldn't be
interruptable by the serial port.  I don't know how the GVP and Commodore
drivers address this.

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: A4000 Processor
Date: 11 Oct 92 04:02:12 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <19.2ad76157@ivgate> john.haubrich@mtask.omahug.org writes:
> Someone stated recently that the A4000
> had a 68EC040 processor (without MMU or FPU).  Is this true?

NO!

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
From: ad2@doc.ic.ac.uk (Ahmad Durrani)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: New Amiga(s) Expansion/Future
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:37:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
NNTP-Posting-Host: crane.doc.ic.ac.uk

In article <35814@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:

>Expansion via sockets has always been discouraged and never supported by
>Commodore.  Devices that go there tax the machine's power supply and are
>often flakey.  The expansion edge might have been kept, but it can't be
>kept forever, it's in the way of the memory card map and can't be supported
>on non-68000 systems.
>
[...etc...]

Did Commodore not supply the A590 20Mb hard disk for the A500, which went
on the expansion port ? Surely they must have supported that !
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: A4000 Hardware questions
Date: 16 Oct 92 07:33:48 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Oct15.160250.7831@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com> jgrimm@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Jeffrey Grimmett 9999) writes:
> In article <23625@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> johnl@SDFSERV.hac.com (John Lee) writes:
> 
> >The problem with buffering CIA lines off-chip, especially those associated
> >with the parallel port, is that some CIA lines are bidirectional.  The
> >buffer chips must be able to switch directions when the CIA does or have a
> >bi-directional buffer.  I can't imagine the latter being sufficiently
> >inexpensive, and the former requires signals not available outside a CIA
> >or extra hardware.
> 
> I have to disagree with you on this.  I'm sitting here looking at several
> types of bi-directional buffers right now, and none of them are all that
> expensive -- and that's retail.  At the OEM level they would be very cheap.
> I'm talking 2.00 US for off the shelf, two to a pack.  Compared to around
> 20.00 US for a CIA, that's not too bad.  Not to mention that it is available
> at most electrinic supply houses, while the CIA is limited in availability.

OK, now find one that has a direction control / enable on a bit-by-bit basis
and figure out how it is supposed to intuit how you've set up the data-direction
register on the 8520...

> >The serial port is easier, since the signals there are uni-directional,
> >according to the RS232 standard, and common inexpensive RS232 buffers/drivers
> >can be used to protect the CIA and Paula there.  They aren't bullet-proof,
> >though.
> 
> Interesting... if the serial port is uni-directional, how do we manage to
> send/receive data via a modem?  Still, I daresay that RS232 buffers are a
> fair sight cheaper than a single CIA.

It has input and output signals that aren't individually programmable as
to direction.  We use standard bi-polar 1488 & 1489 driver chips that are
supposed to be rugged, fault-protected and intended for driving external
signal lines.  Most of the time they do pretty a pretty solid job of it,
but they're not really indestructable.

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
From: mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: A4000 Processor
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:08:53 GMT
Reply-To: mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

amilink!kkrebs@citrus.sac.ca.us (Ken Krebs) writes:
>In article <jorngh.35.718830930@dhhalden.no> jorngh@dhhalden.no (JORN GUNNAR HALONEN) writes:
>> In article <19.2ad76157@ivgate> John.Haubrich@mtask.omahug.org (John Haubrich) writes:
>> >Someone stated recently that the A4000
>> >had a 68EC040 processor (without MMU or FPU).  Is this true?
>>
>> NO NO NO !!!
>>
>> As stated before, the A4000 has a full blown 040 ... who are spreading
>> rumours anyway ???
>>
>> *JORN* (email : jorngh@sofus.dhhalden.no)
>
>It could be coming from the A4000's manual where it shows you how to
>upgrade your 68EC040 processor to a full 68040.  Of course, the machine
>ships with a full 68040...  Does this hint at different models...?

Note that the manual says _IF_ you have a 68EC040 this is hout you upgrade...
It does not say you have one, just that if you did, you can upgrade.

Note that the cost (our cost) difference on the 68040 and 68EC040 is large.
Large means on the order of the cost of 4 68030 CPUs...

Also note that we don't want the 68EC040 since without the MMU Zorro-III
I/O cards will run rather slowly.  (The 68LC040 may be more useful since
it does have the MMU)

Anyway, just because we tell you how to upgrade the CPU if you have a
different one does not mean you have that different one.  Just like when
we tell you how/what memory SIMM is needed for CHIP RAM on the A4000
when it already has the full 2-meg of memory.

/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|      /// Michael Sinz  -  Senior Amiga Systems Engineer              |
|     ///                   Operating System Development Group         |
|    ///   BIX:  msinz      UUNET:  mks@cbmvax.commodore.com           |
|\\\///    "Can't I just bend one of the rules?" said the student.     |
| \XX/     The Master just looked back at him with a sad expression.   |
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: dburnett@emunix.emich.edu (Don Burnett)
Subject: Re: Monitors for A4000 - suggestions?
Keywords: monitors A4000
Organization: Eastern Michigan University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:21:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.133714.29946@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> lofaso@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Bernie Lofaso) writes:
>
>I'm trying to do my homework to find a nice monitor that will work with
>an A4000. I tend to be a little prejudiced towards Trinitron monitors and
>usually stay away from PC garden variety monitors whose names I've never
>heard of. I grabbed a Computer Shopper yesterday and was surprised that
>there didn't seem to be a lot of offerings in multi-syncs that span the
>15-31Khz range. I only found a few ads for the Sony 1302. I would guess
>it's probably not in production anymore. Isn't the Seiko CM1440 comparable?
>Anyone have any experience with this monitor?
>
>Any other monitors that I should be considering? I will want to use 800x600
>when (if) I get an A4000, so it must sync to 24Khz as well.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bernie Lofaso
>Applied Research Labs
>(lofaso@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu)

  Sony has a new monitor that they are advertising in New Media this month,
  it's a "Multimedia Monitor" that handles 15Khz and up to standard Super
  VGA Rates (up through 1024x768). The nicest thing about this is that it
  also handles composite video, Y/C, S-VIDEO, and others and has speakers
  built-in it.. 

  Why look in computer mags for a monitor for a multimedia computer such as
  the Amiga, look at multimedia magazines.. Multimedia, besides being a 
  neat buzzword has also spawned it's own industry of add on products such
  as speakers, monitors, video switchboxes, CD-ROMS etc..

  The specific monitor you want is the Sony GVM-1311Q Multiscan 
  Monitor. 

  Inputs include:
  Composite video 
  Y/C
  Analog/Digital RGB

  It has VGA Auto Size functions and shift adjustment
  It also supports NTSC, PAL, SECAM It has a built-in speaker
  and earphone jacks.. It has something Sony calls  
  "14-inch Superfine Pitch" and supports 600 lines of TV 
  resolution and 1024x768 and is shielded to eliminate 
  leakage of VLF/ELF radiation, for those that worry..

  Call 1-800-635-Sony, ext 311 for more info...


  =DonB=

-- 
******************************************************
dburnett@emunix.emich.edu

EMU Mathematics Lab Consultant

President, CreativEdge Systems
1436 N Prospect, Ypsilanti, MI  48198
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: laire@uni-paderborn.de (Ralph Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy an A3000 now?
Organization: Uni-GH Paderborn
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:24:15 GMT

fihsu@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei) writes:

(schnipp)

>go to you for advice. First, a form of DIG may come out in OS 4.0, but that
>isn't a guarantee by any means. And the RTG might be as slow as hell. (You
>might be able to get good resolution and lots of colors, but not the speed
>improvement of the AGA chipset without shelling a good amount of $$).
>Considering that 3.0 has barely arrived and not even available to most Amiga
>owners, 4.0 could well be at least a year away.  Not that the A3000 is a bad
>choice, but maybe you should take a look at the A4000 before handing out such
>narrow-minded advice.

Why should RTG be slow ???

The only slow-down can be bitplane to chunky format conversion.
If the hardware is good enough,Zorro 3, perhaps with a gfx-processor
that does offer some basic gfx function it should be a lot faster.

Regards...
-- 
Ralph Schmidt                                            laire@uni-paderborn.de
University of Paderborn (Germany)
From: s2j@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Reading AMIGA floppies on a SUN
Date: 7 Oct 92 11:13:41 EDT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Cornell University

Hi- 
  Do there exist any programs for reading and writing AMIGA floppies on
a SUN? (sparcstation w/ 4.1.1)  Please resond by e-mail.  Thanks in advance
-Chris B.
yqdx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
From: QCZUSEA@grove.iup.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Education Prices yet???
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:21:00 GMT


	Anyone hear about any educational discounts on the new line of machines
yet??  If so PLEASE post them as soon as possible!!
********************************************************************************
"An intellectual is an educated person    |Rabid Spinach
who can't do arithmetic with his          |(AKA: Erik Blank)
shoes on, and is proud of his lack."      |(Bitnet:QCZUSEA@IUP)	
		- Robert A. Heinlein      |(Internet:QCZUSEA@GROVE.IUP.EDU)
================================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: bcleve@ho11.eng.ua.edu (Brian D. Cleve)
Subject: A3000 
Keywords: flicker, multisync, VGA, ECS, AGA
Organization: The University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:34:43 GMT

Does any one have the number to C= and when the 
1495 deal expires?  I was guessing the 31?

Thanx in advance,
Brian
bcleve@buster.eng.ua.edu
From: Hytec@cup.portal.com (Brandon Lee Worrell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: ROMs for GVP Impact/SCSI-RAM board
Date: Fri,  9 Oct 92 18:02:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

>First of all, thanks to all those who replied to my earlier post about
>getting version 3.X GVP ROMs.  Based on some of the replies, I gather 
>that some GVP controllers have only 1 ROM chip.  I have one of the    
>early (1988) Impact SCSI/RAM boards.  These contain two ROM chips,    
>marked "odd" and "even".  Mine are also marked as version 1.0.        
>                                                                      
>Does anyone know if there is a set of 3.X chips available for this    
>controller?  I need 3.X to be able to use the controller with Amax+.  
>If you know the highest revision of the chips that were released      
>for this controller, please email me.  Apparently GVP stopped using   
>and revising the odd and even chips at some point.  And if you happen 
>to have a set of 3.X odd and even chips available, please let me      
>know.  Thanks...                                                      
>                                                                      
>Ned Schultz                                                           
>nschultz@nike.calpoly.edu

The current revision of ROM for the GVP controllers is V4.5.  This is 
available for the 2000 and the 500.  They are called the "Faaastrom 2000
Kit".  (Or the Faaastrom 500 Kit.)  Personally I think GVP should have
added a few more 'a's to the name.

Anyways, list on the 2000 version is $50 and is $59 for the 500 version.  It
should be available from any good Amiga store or mail order firm.

Brandon Worrell
HyTec Computers
Voice:      206-456-7656
FAX:        206-456-7657
Orders Only:800-578-6504