Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:20:24 CST
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: EWTN
              6 Jan 1993 19:14:07 GMT from <15942@BRAHMS.UDEL.EDU>

On Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:14:07 GMT Stephen Barr said:
>     I have to admit that I also find it hard to swallow
>the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions. About
>five years ago I was given some literature about Medj..
>written by a Lutheran pastor who was a big devotee of
>these apparitions. I was also given some other "pro-Medj.."

Do you perhaps mean Wayne Weible? He was a journalist who
decided to do a series of articles on Medjugorje for his newspaper
just as an interesting item for the CHristmas season in 1985.
He was a Lutheran himself, and also a skeptic but thought it
would make a nice series for the paper. Our Lady called him,
much to his amazement, and asked him to write about Medjugorje
for the world. Millions have read the tabloid that was created of
the whole series of articles, and his book "Medjugorje, The
Message" helps non-Catholics understand God working through
Mary, the rosary, etc. ( like myself) Wayne learned everything
the hard way, by experiencing it for himself. He made many, many
trips to Medjugorje and spoke with nearly everyone involved.
He is now a Roman Catholic, as is his family.

>literature. When I started reading it I was disposed to
>believe it. But the more I read the more I felt it
>did not ring true. One thing I felt was particularly
>strange. One of the "visionaries" asked Our Lady how
>many people went to Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven. Our
>Lady responded with a statistical breakdown! I forget
>the percentages. But I remember that a distinct minority
>(about 10% I think) go to Hell. That Mary would divulge

I have never heard of exact percentages. Mary's role at Fatima,
and now (allegedly) Medjugorje is to persuade her children that
we must lead lives that are much more holy than we feel is
"good enough" today. Part of this was to explain that the majority
of people who die go to purgatory. Then next largest group go to
hell, and only very few ever go directly to heaven.

>such information seems to me to be absurd. The disciples
>asked Jesus for this information (Are there many who will
>be saved?) and Our Lord would not reveal it. No question
>has been more interesting to believers since, yet
>Revelation gives no answer! I would think the reason is
>obvious. It is not something we are supposed to know.

You forget, however, that in the Bible God would not allow a
vision of hell ( don't have the reference here, anyone? )
yet at Fatima, Our Lady was allowed to give Lucia, Francisco,
and Jacinta a view of hell. It was what made such a profound
impact on them, especially Jacinta, to make sacrifices for
sinners until her death. And, undoubtedly, is supposed to inspire
us to do the same.

>Moreover, Scripture emphasizes the difficulty of salvation
>(take the narrow path) and if anything suggests that "few"
>will be saved. (Many are called but few are chosen). So
>suddenly Mary tells us that 90% are saved! Why? To satisfy
>our idle curiosity? This is just one of many things I read
>which convinced me these apparitions are not genuine.

I have *never* read anything of the sort. When you consider that
those who have had a vision of hell cannot even begin to convey
its horror (other than to say that they would not wish even the
most evil of men to go there), I would say 10% going there must be
an incredible loss...consider how *many* souls that is.

>    This is not to say that the Holy Spirit has not moved
>many devotees of Medjugorje to repentance and to holiness.
>Many of the things that the visionaries report Our
>Lady as saying at Medjugorje are doubtless true and good
>things. Those who recognize their truth and are converted
>by them are indeed being illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
>But that says something only about the power of God
>who turn anything to good.

You know, what amazes me is that it is so easy for many to believe
that Satan is actively working causing apparitions all around the
world all the time to lead us to doom....yet it is so *difficult* to
believe that God may be exercising His power to save us. An interesting
approach thought. Perhaps we believe more in the power and evil of
Satan than in the power and goodness of God? Or perhaps we have not
thought much about Satan and can believe him capable of anything, yet
we have thought much of God and in our minds have defined how we think
He should speak and act.

>    One thing I don't understand is why devotees of these
>apparitions are disturbed that some Catholics don't
>accept them. Catholics have never been expected to accept

I don't know if this is true or not. (I'm not a Catholic yet).

>ANY private revelation, even Fatima or Lourdes. Or, at
>least, never been required to accept them. I accept the
>basic message that repentance is sorely needed. But

Well, the whole message goes much further than that. It asks us
to fast, hopefully on bread and water, every Friday, and if
possible on Wednesdays also. It asks us to pray the rosary daily,
especially with our families. It asks us to live a life of
holiness and become sensitive to the sin around us. In short, it
demands much more of us that a basic message of repentance seems
to convey. Not very many people are living this way to my knowledge.

>why must I or anyone else accept these particular messages.

According to Fatima, and Medjugorje, if we do not do these things
then many nations will be annihilated, and many children that God
dearly loves will be lost forever. The chastisements will be much
worse. This is why some people care very much whether others not
only hear the message, but are moved to *live* it. It affects us all.

>??? I am content to let the Church pass judgment. Given
>the very dubious character of some of the messages and
>some of the circumstances surrounding them, I would be
>astonished if the Church authorities ever felt they could
>judge THem as worthy of belief.  Steve

Personally, I think it would be surprising if the Church ever has the
opportunity to pass judgement on them. When all the visionaries have
been given all ten of the secrets, Mary will cease appearing to them.
Two have received all ten, and the others have nine of the ten. When all
ten secrets have been given to all six visionaries, the events foretold
will begin to occur. It should be pretty clear at that point whether
or not Medjugorje is valid. (Remember, Sr. Lucia who is nearly 86 is
to live to see the beginnings of the things Our Lady told her at Fatima.
And Sr. Lucia says that the Third Secret, which has never been announced,
can be found in the Apocalypse, chapters 8 - 13. This *should* be enough
to inspire us even without Medjugorje)

In Jesus and Mary,
Elizabeth

"Mercy is the flower of Love"
                              Sr. Faustina, "Divine Mercy in My Soul"