HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ric@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Graffiti 404-972-4999)
Subject: Jane Whitley's Night Talk & gay teens
Summary: Jackson & Paris and some gay teens on a talk show, good.
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:54:52 GMT

I watched a (syndicated?) talk show on WSB-TV in Atlanta this morning at
1am called Jane Whitley's Night Talk. THe show dealt with gay teens, but
had a leading title: "Are the schools teaching your kids to be gay?" (We
should be used to leading show titles...)

Featured were two gay teens from Los Angeles, along with Bob Paris and
Rod Jackson, and a hetero teen, a phobe mother and a "reformed" <cough>
homosexual from Exodus ministries for "balance." They discussed Virginia
Uribe's Project 10 in California schools, and we suffered dire predictions
from the 'phobes about the "gay agenda" that threatens to force teens who
are having "gender identity crises" to be gay. (The teen lesbian said it
well: "Gender crisis? I know what I am. I =like= being a girl.")

In the end, it appeared obvious that Jane had stacked the audience with
gay folk and our supporters, and though she tried the devil's advocate
position a couple of times, she really tore into the phobes without letting
up too many times to remain objective. I was amused. :)

It was good that it was being discussed. As always, I was a bit irritated
with Rod Jackson's temper (he sputters and sounds silly when he's angry)
but he and Bob played well together. (They always do!) The 'phobe fear
tactics were transparent and disjointed, as they always are. Effect on
society: zero. We'll be jawing about this one forever.....

-- 
 -Ric     __                       __                                 __
          \/   ric@gnu.ai.mit.edu  \/   Graffiti BBS  404 972-4999    \/
                 GEnie: GRAFFITI      PO Box 3176, Lithonia GA 30058

Xref: sparky soc.motss:47441 co.politics:1971
From: kpm@druhi.ATT.COM (Kevin Malloy (DoD #106))
Newsgroups: soc.motss,co.politics
Subject: Equal Rights Laws, a misunderstanding
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:04:11 GMT

in article <1992Nov13.053951.5644@ncar.ucar.edu>, gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) says:
> Xref: drutx soc.motss:5856 alt.politics.homosexuality:7586 co.politics:304
>
>   I don't see the reasoning behind the "discrimination is bad except in these
>   cases: whites, males, straights, non-handicapped, &c" as legitimate. Either
>   all discrimination is bad, or all of it isn't bad. Whether or not the state
>   should be brought in to resolve these issues is another matter entirely.
>   And, of course, the cost of the resentment created in non-protected groups.

This demonstrates a very common misunderstanding of civil rights laws, a
misunderstanding promulgated by the likes of Colorado for Family Values,
by trying to paint laws that protect against discrimination based on
"sexual orientation" as "special rights for homosexuals, lesbians, and
bi-sexuals" (*)

Human rights law don't protect just African-Americans, they protect against
discrimination based on race.  These laws don't protect just women, they 
protect against discrimination based on "gender".  These laws don't just
gays and lesbians, they protect against discrimination based on "sexual
orientation", which is defined as "being, or perceived to be, heterosexual,
homosexual, or bisexual" (From Denver's Human Rights Ordinance).  The
law protects white, hetero, married, under-40 males just like it protects
Asian, Lesbian, 70-year-olds from discrimination.  It's just that 
discrimination against white, hetero, married, under-40 males is not
terribly common in our society.  Some scream that they are discriminated
against, but analysis usually shows that what they are really screaming
about is the loss of white-male priviledge.

The use of the term "non-protected groups" clearly demonstrates this 
misunderstanding.  The term "protected class" is only reasonably used
when talking about "affirmative action" programs -- programs designed to
compensate those in "protected groups" for the effects of past
discrimination.  Most commonly, "protected groups" include racial and
ethnic minorities, and women.  I have never heard of any policy that
includes Lesbians, Gays, or Bisexuals in a "protected class".  (Please
note that I work for a company that has one of the most progressive
EEO/AA policies in the nation, and Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals are
clearly included in the EEO policy, and clearly not in the AA policy.)

(*)  Does anyone but me see the blatant sexism in this quote?

  					    Kevin

Kevin Malloy  kpm@druhi.att.com  AT&T Bell Labs, Denver  (303) 538-3511
633 E. 11th Ave.					 1991 BMW K75RT	  
Denver, CO  80203	_NOT_ a 2nd Class Coloradoan!	       DoD #106
(303) 830-2937	 1932 Germany   1962 Alabama   1992 Colorado
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: No Longer Dealing with Bank of Assholes
Date: Sun,  8 Nov 92 08:17:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Nov5.222529.20976@nevada.edu> <1992Nov6.091201.18070@lclark.edu>
  <1992Nov6.185258.25519@PacBell.COM>

Rod Williams writes:
>Have I mentioned the long line that still forms at the ATMs
>outside Bank of America's (proud Boy Scout contributor) branch
>at Castro & Market Streets in San Francisco?

That's sad to hear, but at least *I* won't be one of those
standing in that line.

I'm happy to announce that about a week ago, I opened accounts at
Wells Fargo; I just got my ATM card on Friday.  From that point
on, all new deposits will be into my Wells Fargo accounts, and
as soon as I get my personalized checks and my new WF Visa card,
I'll be totally closing the Security Pathetic -cum- Bank of
Arrogance accounts.

I admit I'd been putting it off because of all the changeovers
that need to be made -- computer services that have to be given
the new credit card number, my health insurance that's
automatically paid out of my checking account, and so on. But
when I got another of the glowing notices from SP/BofA about
their ongoing merger, I got pissed off, went to the nearest
Wells Fargo (really, much more convenient to my usual route
to/from work and just across the street from the VONS I 
do my grocery shopping at) and opened accounts.

So if you are like me, and you missed "Take It Out Day" and 
have otherwise been procrastinating about severing your
connections with Security Pacific/Bank of America, just get
up and **DO** it!  Wells Fargo is open on *Saturday*, so even
if you're a traditional Monday-Friday working stiff, you won't
need to take time off from work to get everything started.
 
() It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any
() survival value.
()      -- Arthur C. Clarke
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:04:04 GMT

rw> Rod Williams
gs> Gary Strand

gs> My ideal world would contain no such protections for anyone. If you want to
    fire me because I'm white, male, and het then that's your right. If I want
    to fire you because you're female, gay, bi, a poor dresser, whatever, then
    that should be my right.

rw> But in the *real* world, if you'll pardon me for dragging you back into
    it, white het males are never discriminated against for being white het
    males, while people who differ in one or more of those three categories
    (and several others) frequently *are* fired, or ignored, or harassed, or
    denied housing and public accommodations merely on account of that dif-
    ference.

  I know all that. BTW, what about white het males that are handicapped, or
  are Jewish, or are fat, or ugly? Simply being a white het male is no guar-
  antee against discrimination, in fact, some laws mandate discrimination 
  against them.

  The point is that I visualize a world in which anti-discrimination laws are
  rendered moot, and I figure the best way to get there is *not* creating laws
  that *explicitly* mandate discrimination, but rather eliminate all laws that
  prevent it. Notice that I'm not asking for the right to discriminate but not
  granting it to others; if I can fire you for having too-long hair, then you
--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Okay, what makes a Gay or Lesbian turn Republican?
Organization: International Irony League -- Death before smileys!
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:30:17 GMT

In article <17895@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:
>"Extremeism in the defense of Liberty is no vice, 
>moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue".
>
>The liberal press crucified him.
>
>I think it would make a great Queer nation slogan myself.

Insufficiently chantable. Perhaps with a little modification:

"Hey Hey, Ho Ho, Moderation in the Pursuit of Justice 
Has Got to Go"

"What do we want? Extremism in the defense of Liberty!
When do we want it? Now!"

-- 
Andrew Michael Solovay    

"We know that Solovay is a misogynist an an idiot..."
		--Melinda Shore
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Our Gummint (was Re: Gay Sailor Reinstated)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:24:05 GMT

> gsmith@clio.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith) writes:

>Jahowl, but I would prefer hypocrapy or even hippocrapy.
 ^^^^^^
>Now *that* says something.

Don't think for an instant, Eugen Schmidt, that this
naughtiness went unseen.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Social Democracy
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:41:14 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <19921104235835ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:

>What I do know is that [Sarver] has been unjustly accused of
>being homophobic merely because he made the observation that
>the media focuses on a certain segment of the GLB community
>not viewed in great esteem by the public at large when the
>media cover gay pride parades (This is an observation which
>has been made, incidentally, by a number of GLB activist
>groups as well),

Interesting gloss on "merely."  Which "GLB activist groups" do
you refer to?

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: Social Democracy
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:46:06 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <19921112013218ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>,
ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) wrote:

> >It's not fanciful.  I have a Goldwater speech from 1961 which
> >accuses the remnant of Roosevelt's New Deal Democrats as
> >being `tolitarian tinkerbells'.  But it was a slam against
> >all of the most liberal in Congress, not queerfolk.
> >
> Really? I am genuinely surprised and mildly dismayed. What do you
> think Goldwater meant by "tinkerbells"? I suppose that as early as 1961
> even otherwise decent people could have been been prejudiced against
> gays.

I suspect BG went in for the delightful poetic resonance of the term.
He was certainly making the case that a constipated Congress behaved
in a 'totalitarian' manner.  'Tinkerbell' would definitely have been
an allusion to 'fairy' and by extension, gay - but I doubt BG was
seriously suggesting that the liberal muck clogging Congressional
halls was gay.  Nor is it likely he was slamming homosexuals, as
in 1961 there was no major homosexual presence - it would have
been slamming a very weak group, and Goldwater wasn't particularly
a bully.  

No, I imagine that if he did use the term, it was simply intended
as an insult to Congress - and not an example of homophobia.  Even
in use against homosexuals, *I* don't consider it homophobia...

I *love* it!

Totalitarian Tinkerbell.  Totalitarian Tinkerbell.  Totalitarian 
Tinnnnkkkkkerrrrrbelllllll...  

(it *would* make a great baseball jersey - but Disney would sue.
They're like that.  You might even call them...

   ...Totalitarian Tinkerbells!)

<smooch>

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Depression and anger
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:24:56 GMT

In article <73750@hydra.gatech.EDU> danny.ingram@business.gatech.edu (Danny 
Ingram) writes:
>Christians seem to be the major source of the hate.  Would there not be
>a lot less hatred in the world if there were only less Christians?  

Probably not.  Hatred and prejudice are not exclusively christian, alas. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jet@boxer.nas.nasa.gov (J. Eric Townsend)
Subject: Re: Boycott Colorado
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation, NASA Ames
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:49:10

"charlie" == Charlie GALVIN <charlie@wet.UUCP> writes:

charlie> Don't fly United or Continental or any airline which has a
charlie> Denver hub.  If you must use these airlines, insist that you
charlie> not fly into a Colorado airport--and tell them why!

Uh, what major airlines *don't* have a Colorado hub (and go anywhere
important :-)?

As far as Coors, it should already be on (collective) your boycott
list.  Plus it's nasty beer.

As always, if you're going to boycott, *write letters to the companies
as well*.  Otherwise, the drop in sales might be attributed to bad ad
campaign, slow economy, etc.

charlie> If you happen to be a gay business owner in Colorado, may I
charlie> suggest that you fire all your heterosexual employees?  After
charlie> all *that's* legal too!

Now that'll certainly help the cause of peaceful coexistance.  "I can
hate you back harder than you can hate me."

charlie> The Oregon Citizens' Alliance (= fundy hate group)

Suggesting that lesbigay businessfolk fire het employees puts you
perilously close to being in a hate group yourself.
--
             J. Eric Townsend --  jet@nas.nasa.gov -- 415.604.4311
                              '92 R100R, DoD# 0378
			      BMWOA, AMA, ACLU, ACM
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: discrimination at CMU
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:31:34 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) wrote:
>  What nonsense. Suppose, as an assignment, the student were asked to
>play Billy-Bob-with-baseball-bat-gay-basher. A good actor ought to
>be able to perform such an assignment, no? 

Student #1 has one arm.  He has trouble playing Billy-Bob-with-baseball-
bat-gay-basher.  Throw him out of the department.

Student #2 is a woman.  She has trouble playing Billy-Bob-with-baseball-
bat-gay-basher.  Throw her out of the department.

There are going to be any number of roles that any actor just cannot
play.  If students are failed simply because they cannot play a 
"manly" character, students should just as readily be removed if 
they cannot play a "feminine" character.  Picking on this one 
characteristic is blatant discrimination.

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu

Hate, bigotry, and discrimination are not family values, even in
Colorado and Tampa.
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatality
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:47:15 GMT

dc> Dennis Clark
gs> Gary Strand

dc> Let's use a bit of an analogy (wavy lines shift to dream state)...

dc> You are male, a recent law has just declared that males are no longer al-
    lowed several constitutional rights and may now be discriminated against
    freely.

  We already are. In very few cases of actual discrimination does the employ-
  er (or whomever) say "We're firing you because you're <gay/female/black>."
  They're smarter than that. BTW, there is no "constitutional right" to hous-
  ing, a job, &c. 

dc> To reiterate, what would you do?  How would you feel if your existance has
    just been determined to be without value?  How would you like it if the
    majority of the people have just declared you anethema?  Think a bit be-
    fore you answer.

  Committing suicide certainly wouldn't be the option. And, if this societal
  persecution is limited to just me personally, there's isn't a whole lot I
  can do. However, if it includes others, then we ought to get together and
  fight it. It depends on what sanctions society has put into place against
  me. If men in general were denied the same right to legal recourse that #2
  has emplaced against gays, I really wouldn't care. There are enough suf-
  ficiently non-prejudiced people out there that my existence really wouldn't
  change much.

dc> We cannot blame #2 for anything more that putting salt in the wound, but
    that its usually a lot of little things that add up to a big thing.

  Agreed, so why not list the other things that helped create this man's prob-
  lems as well? Perhaps because those other factors wouldn't be as useful in a
  campaign to repeal #2? And, couldn't one include the deep need this man felt
  for the approval of others as helping to lead to his suicide?
--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Mouse Balls
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:49:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Nov9.224941.15326
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <mattm-091192122948@mcmelmon.apple.com> 
 mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>I was sent the following alert - which actually went out to
>engineers in the field ...  Persons responsible for sending me 
>this memo expressed the belief that it was genuine.

Very old, very tired.  Haven't been on Usenet long, eh, Matthew?

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: tcarlin@athena.mit.edu (Thomas B Carlin)
Subject: Gender Parity
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, GABLES
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:58:39 GMT

Hello folks!

We have an organization here at M.I.T. called GABLES (*GA*y, *B*isexual,
and *L*esbian *E*mployees and *S*upporters), and -- as a member of our
Coordinating Committee, I have been asked to write a draft spelling out
what GABLES considers to be gender parity.  I write here to solicit
ideas and thoughts on this subject from others.

A little backup.  M.I.T. is noted as an engineering school, which -- by
nature of its history -- is **_very_** male dominated.  AS GABLES is an
organization which represents BOTH of genders, we feel that it is
important that anything that represents GABLES have gender parity.  The
problem is, we have'nt quite figured out what **_WE_** mean by this.

Most of the womyn in the group (and many of the men -- myself included)
are fully aware that anything that happens here at "the TUTE" has a
"male decree" to it, and anything that doesn't is seldom taken as
serious.  

One of the ways we have worked around this is that we try -- at the very
least -- is to have both a womyn and a men representative (i.e., our
spokespersons are one of each) for all "officers".  The problem arises,
though, in committees; an example is the anti-harassment committee,
where only 4 white males seemed to be interested in the topic (or, in
defense of those who were interested, could not make the meetings no
matter when we scheduled them).  Having 4 white males decide and plan
such events as "A Day Without Harassment" **_really_** stuck in the craw
of several of our womyn members, and a HUGE debate was sparked.  The end
result was the near death of the anti-harassment committee.

So, I put it to the masses

	-	What IS GENDER PARITY?
	-	How important is it to lesbigay groups (and the lesbigay
		community as a whole.
	-	What can we do to ensure gender parity if it is
		important.

And any other thing on the topic you'd like to add.

Thanks bunches......

Tom

P.S.: If anyone is interested in learning more about our -- so far --
successful organization, I'd love to send ya stuff.
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2
Date: Fri,  6 Nov 92 19:51:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

I have a question....

What would happen if a municipality (say Boulder) that already had
a gay rights law were to REFUSE to cease enforcing it?

Or, what if they were to replace it with a law that doesn't
mention sexual orientation in any way -- such as mandating that
no one may be fired or evicted for ANY reason not directly
relevant?

I'm jazzed about Clinton, Feinstein, Boxer and the defeat of #9,
but the fact that Measure 2 passed just makes me SICK.

-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Hot Pursuit
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:41:06 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <1992Nov4.040940.1640@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
writes:
>According to articles in several local newspapers, the budget director of
>the University of San Francisco, has been reprimanded for appearing in a 
>gay porn film.  The student newspaper has called for his dismissal. 

	Hypocrites!
>
>According to the Examiner, the file, "Hot Pursuit", has been circulating
>through the university's dorms (I wonder who brought it to their
>attention).  Has anyone seen it?

	Isn't this the one with Jeff Stryker (bleccch) and
	poet/model Gavin Dillard?  If it is, it's been
	around for several years, now.  Took 'em long enough!

	No, I haven't seen it.  Really, I haven't.

	-R


--
Ignorant people think it's the *noise* which fighting cats make
that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening
grammar they use.  -- Mark Twain
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc