HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:34:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <30rjrhf@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:
>
>> Maybe I got it wrong, but the discussion over "rec.arts.comics.manga"
>> seemed to have created a thought of "rec.arts.anime.animation" in my
>> mind.  If it should be rec.arts.comics.manga, then why was it not
>> rec.arts.anime.animation for the animation newsgroup?  It did came after
>> the anime newsgroup in terms of charter time. 
>
>Where groups belong is not based on where they should be created.  Anime
>is a type of animation, so it belongs under rec.arts.animation.  Manga are
>a type of comics, so it belongs under rec.arts.comics.

This precedence of manga vs comics is part of what is being discussed here.
Please don't insult our intelligence by behaving like it's already been
established one way or the other.

>This has been explained several times already.  You might consider
>paying attention this time.

It has been explained the other direction several times too.  Paying attention
implies that one would have noted that fact also.

--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: pss1@kepler.unh.edu (Paul S Secinaro)
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 13:55:49 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.045029.17668@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> newberry@astro.as.arizona.edu (Mike Newberry) writes:


>			 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
>
>		       on creating a newsgroup for
>
>                            IMAGE PROCESSING
>			    

[proposal deleted]

>  1) Determine if there is sufficient interest to warrant calling for a
>     vote to create the proposed group.

You can put me down as a supporter.

>  2) Select a name for the group.

comp.imaging?

>  3) Develop a newsgroup charter.

One suggestion I'd like to make is that the discussion and questions
relating to image processing hardware be allowed for.  The area of
real-time IP, in particular, uses a lot of specialized, exotic
hardware, and it's sometimes difficult to get support even from the
manufacturer.

Paul



-- 
Paul Secinaro            | Synthetic Vision and Pattern Analysis Lab
pss1@kepler.unh.edu      | Dept. of Computer and Electrical Engineering
p_secinaro@unhh.unh.edu  | University of New Hampshire
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:36:11 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <1992Apr7.164537.13112@wdl.loral.com>
dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume) writes:
>Comics and manga are two variations of a similar medium.  Neither
>belongs under the other.

But both belong in a common hierarchy more specific than "rec.arts".
"rec.arts.comics.manga" paves the way for that by allowing related
forms to be placed together under rec.arts.comics.  Given the inertia
of newsgroup names, "rec.arts.manga" not only fails to promote such a
scheme, but makes it less likely.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:39:32 GMT

hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>   ... I'm still waiting for someone to explain what this difference
>is. I personally, have read manga, namely the Akira series and a good
>number of the Viz series, and it certainly seemed as though I was
>reading a comic book. How are they so different?

[Note: I am not defending either rec.arts.comics.manga nor rec.arts.manga]
[I just happen to respect Hades (vs. Lazlo), so I'll try to answer...]

Some supporter of rec.arts.comics.manga suggested that rec.arts.comics
did not belong under *.book.* because there was a difference between comics
and books.  In this vein, a difference between manga and *western* comics
is that manga usually are books.

the most common size is *about* 1 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm.  Manga come in
a number of different forms, but they almost always have a substantial
spine, and are collections of the equivalent of around 10 comic books.

Manga is also distinguished from comics by its *particular* mastery of
zip-o-tone (sp?) usage, dependence on visual effects (2 page spreads of a
single "panal" with little to no dialog are common), the fact that
it is predominately black-and-white, and goofy caricatures of the
characters sometimes interspersed throughout the story. 

The things you see in comic book stores, are *adaptations* of manga.  The
stuff we (alt.manga subscribers) usually refer to are the books that can
commonly be found at a Yaohan, or Kinokuniya bookstore.  If you care,
go there and pick up something like Silent Mobius or Orion.  (IMHO,
Viz's Silent Mobius adaptation sucks rocks.  It does not do the manga
justice.)

Lazlo will want to (F)ollow up and say that some comics can be found that
satisfy some of these requirements [excluding the "book" one], and some may
satisfy all.  Fine.  My point is that these requirements are *typical* of
manga.  I was defending no one.  I was answering a question.

--David
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+-----+
| <:-)  -Manga fans, | David Blume            | "..." -Anime fans,    |  o  |
| reading KOR #18    | dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com | viewing the KOR movie | ^ ^ |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+-----+
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jkf@Franz.COM (Sean Foderaro)
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation
Organization: Franz Inc., Berkeley, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 15:10:36 GMT

 I've seen this reasoning used before: if we aren't getting enough talk about 
topic Y in newsgroup X (where Y is a subset of X), then we'll create 
newsgroup Y to 'encourage' such  discussion.  I don't think that this has 
worked.   Newsgroup Y should be created only if there is a large volume
of discussion on topic Y in newsgroup X and it is clear that such 
discussion would continue if the group were split off.

 So I'm currently against splitting eunet.aviation out of rec.aviation 
since there is too little eunet-only traffic on that group.

-sean foderaro
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:42:05 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Some comments on this rec.arts.{whatever}.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty) writes:
 >It's more than enough for asian comics to have their own newsgroup.

Sure.  They'd go under rec.arts.comics.asian, while manga would
go in rec.arts.manga.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:49:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.v=rjaq#
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

> I am going to reiterate the point I made much earlier.  Manga is a term
> used to describe all forms of sequential art. 

This is true *only in Japan*.  In the rest of the world, "manga" refers
specifically to *Japanese* sequential art.

> That's why the working definition of "manga" and "comics" have made
> themselves into an "eastern sequential art" and "western sequential
> art". 

By *whose* working definition -- besides yours -- does the word "comics"
refer exclusively to western sequential art?  Manga are discussed in
rec.arts.comics from time to time.  The best-known Western reference on
manga (Fredrick Schodt's MANGA! MANGA!) refers to manga as "Japanese
comics" in the title.  Even the domestic-comics (read: manga) newsgroup
for the Japanese hierarchy is called fj.rec.*comics*.  

This is an international net.  From the point of view of the vast majority
of people on the net, "manga" refers only to one kind of comic book --
namely the Japanese kind.  We have an existing hierarchy for comics, and
since manga are a type of comics, the manga newsgroup belongs in the
comics hierarchy.  Period.    

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:58:47 GMT
	<1992Apr14.162940.3829@iscsvax.uni.edu> <12454@tamsun.tamu.edu>
Reply-To: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

rdubbs@cs.tamu.edu (Roger B. Dubbs III) writes:

>About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is to have
>rgm.announce (moderated) run by Scott Goehring.  Why don't we make
>this a seperate issue, and have a RFD on it, etc.?

I would actually prefer this; I would rather not have the vote for
rgm.announce lose because it was tied up in a lot of silly arguments
over the other group names, which I really don't care much about. :)

--
As to Jesus of Nazareth.... I think the system of Morals and his religion, as
he left them to us, the best the world has saw or is likely to see; but I
apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of
the dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity.  -- Ben Franklin
Xref: sparky eunet.news.group:6 news.groups:10116
From: wolfgang@sam.first.gmd.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Newsgroups: eunet.news.group,news.groups
Subject: Re: RfD eunet.aviation
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:04:46 GMT
Reply-To: wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de
Followup-To: eunet.news.group,news.groups
Organization: GMD-FIRST, Berlin
In-reply-to: adf@crosfield.co.uk's message of 10 Apr 92 18:40:34 GMT

In article <13500@suns7.crosfield.co.uk> adf@crosfield.co.uk (alex france) writes:

>   Seems like a good idea, especially if it does prompt more passive
>   readers to come out of the woodwork and have more european (and
>   Scandanavia, of course) biased discussions. I wonder at whether the
>   volume will justify it, though, given the small number of european
>   based articles that do appear in rec.aviation. Is volume of traffic an
>   issue or requirement when it comes to creating a new news group?

Small amount of traffic is generally not an issue when *creating* a new group,
*but* of course it makes the group uninteresting.

>   Hopefully Wolfgang is right, and a lot more people will contribute if
>   they feel the news is more 'local' and not feel that the item has to
>   be of earth shattering importance before it can be launched into the
>   ether, as might be felt about rec.aviation.

I for one had some problems initially, when I got some, err, not very nice
answers when posting non-US stuff to r.a. Eunet.aviation could definitely
limit these problems.

>   My vote would be for, but if it comes to a vote, could I ask that
>   someone (Wolfgang?) publish where/what/how the voting should take
>   place for people like me who can't quite lay their hands on the
>   Usenet manifesto just at this moment .....

There is a FAQ article "How to create a new Newsgroup"; I can post it here,
if people don't have access to it.
Generally speaking: After 30 days discussion, there will be a call for votes,
explicitely telling you where to mail your YES or NO. If a sufficiently
large majority votes YES within 30 days, the group will be created.
--
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wolfgang@prosun.first.gmd.de
diestelkamp@kmx.gmd.dbp.de
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:04:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Apr10.190407.1710
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <axolotl.702903832@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>Isn't Star Trek and Dr. Who in its original form "still a type of TV
>show"?  Why aren't they under rec.arts.tv.?  (Yes, I know, and it
>applies here too.) That's another precedent we'd have to break.

I don't think the precedent applies here.  As far as I can tell, the
reason those groups aren't under r.a.tv or r.a.sf is that they
predated those hierarchies and have resisted moving.  It applies to
the r.a.anime/animation situation, perhaps, but not to the creation of
a new newsgroup.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:59:32 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

pckyip@athena.mit.edu (Patrick C Yip) writes:

>In article <rdippold.702858042@qualcom> rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
>>
>>anime.  However if you have a question on Kimagure Orange Road, you
>>ask for it on the group that deals with anime specifically, even

>Not really, you can ask it on a group dealing with manga, depending on
>what kind of question you have :-) Another piece of information that 
>how close anime and manga can often be.

    So?

>>Manga are comics, and what you're advocating is a specific group for
>>manga.  I wouldn't be adverse to a rec.arts.comics.books to take care
>>of what's in rec.arts.comics at the moments, but that's another group.

>Many are saying rec.arts.comics can be or will be changed in this way or
>that way and it would be more desirable then..., but I have yet to see 
>somebody with the guts to do that.

    If you have followed rec.arts.comics at all you would have see that
I volunteered to run the RFD/CFV for a rec.arts.comics split. The
problem is getting the group to agree on what kind of split is
desirable. You can rest assured that once this is accomplished, one of
the groups on the ballot will be r.a.c.misc. Personally, I think the
creation of rec.arts.comics.manga could go a long way into moving r.a.c
to a split.

>Actually as I came to rec.arts.comics, the Title header guideline doesn't
>help much in my screening of articles unfortunately.

    The move to the subject prefixes is an attmept to change a flow that
has not deviated from its course in over 7 years. These things do take
time you know.


--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
From: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.arts.dragonlance
Reply-To: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:46:45 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.221528.6981@cs.yale.edu> heintzelman-george@CS.YALE.EDU (George Heintzelman) writes:
>[dragonlance RFD removed]
>
>	The main question I have here is simply, WHY? All of these
>topics have places they can be discussed, rec.arts.sf.* and
>rec.games.frp depending on what you're talking about.  And, reading
>both of those groups (Staggering under the volume), there is only a
>very, very small number of posts on these topics.  If I'm not
>mistaken, there is a dragonlance mailing list, oriented towards the
>frp topics.  I see no reason to add this group.


  I agree--there just isn't the need, and adding a mainstream group
for something this specific and low bandwidth is bad form.

  This might perhaps be a good application for an alt.fan group?
alt.fan.dragonlance would fit in well, if people out there really
think there's a need for a group discussing this.

[alt.config added to Newsgroups: line.]

Jonathan Lennox
jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
From: armogimc@ucbeh.san.uc.edu (Michael C. Armogida)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  misc.jobs.offered.entrylevel
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:37:39 EST
Summary: entry level discussion base
Followup-To: news.groups
Distribution: world
Organization: U. of Cincinnati Computing Center

In article <1992Apr2.155534.14962@uunet.uu.net>, rc05@gte.com (Ramesh Chandak) writes:
> Call For Discussion:  Creation of misc.jobs.offered.entrylevel
Yes, misc.jobs.offered.entrylevel should be created.  It should be left
unmoderated.  This will help new and soon-to-be college grads at least get some
leads in this lousy economy.

 
Mike
-- 
==================================================================
Mike Armogida                 Galahad: "But I want to face the 
The University of Cincinnati            peril!"
  Computing Center            Lancelot: "Sorry, too perilous"      
(513)556-9105 fax:(513)556-2199      
armogimc@ucbeh.san.uc.edu     UC Basketball = Minneapolis '92 NCAA     
==================================================================
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:21:27 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr13.203326.9375@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>
>  If I was to buy some mange in this town (placed in non-english country)
>I would go down to shop called "comics".
>

Personally speaking, I can't find my manga outside of Japanese bookstores.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems                               
Mountain View, CA                            "..ck me gently with a chainsaw"
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp reorg
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:20:03 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Distribution: news
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Apr10.002135.9158@cco.caltech.edu>, laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence) writes:
>No frp groups outside of the .frp hierarchy.  The r.g.cyber was a
>bad idea, and I wish it had been killed, but it's passage is no
>reason to make a bad mistake worse.

Bravo!

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Date:  9 Apr 92 02:07:45 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:
 >>Unfortunately true. Else there wouldn't be a need for all these follow-ups.

hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
 >    This is a very true statement. But this is the way UseNet works.

It's also the reason why Usenet remains a crude, inflexible email
broadcasting network, where any sensible change has to be put through
pointless bureaucracy, like this.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Xref: sparky news.groups:9590 rec.music.cd:3840 rec.music.misc:13544
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Date: 6 Apr 92 08:04:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: eagle.1992Apr6.030448.1
 <1992Apr3.175956.11929@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <ymnj+0p@lynx.unm.edu> <1992Apr6.033013.15722@mel.dit.csiro.au>
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1992Apr6.033013.15722@mel.dit.csiro.au>, brian@mel.dit.csiro.au (Brian May) writes:
> 
> In article <ymnj+0p@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
> |> psc9q@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Paul Casey) writes:
> |> 
> |> > Changing the name to rec.music.media will keep the spirit of what
> |> > rec.music.cd was supposed to be and cut down on unwanted traffic. 
> |> 
> |> Maybe I'm just dim but I think rec.music.media makes it a lot *less*
> |> obvious what's supposed to be discussed there, not more.
> |> 
> Yep, it will open the door for people to talk endlessley about Rolling Stone
> articles, record reviewers, videos, radio stations/shows/etc ...ad infinitum.
> 

   Exactly.  It seems to me that rec.music.cd is just a cross-post siteg
substantive on r.m.cd that wasn't also on one or the other.  I think a better
move would be to get rid of it altogether.

Karl Magnacca
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:56:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.yjrj7a#
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:

>> Would a call for rec.music.artists.enya actually require a
>> restructuring vote? 
>
> Good question. Any net gurus have any input on this? 

No, it wouldn't REQUIRE one, but it would leave things a little screwy in
rec.music.* if it wasn't part of a reorg.

>> I think it's pretty clear from the discussion that an enya group does
>> NOT have nearly as much support. 
>
> I have recieved more 'yes' mail than I have seen 'no' posts. 

Which doesn't prove a damn thing, as there are plenty of people who will
vote against a group without making their opinions public first.  There
were only a handful of people who stood up publicly against
rec.music.phish, but well over 100 people voted 'no', and you don't have
the benefit of a 500-member mailing list backing you up to overcome that. 

You don't know much about history of how this process works in rec.music,
do you Paul?  The people who are suggesting you try a mailing list first
are being *helpful*, not trying to screw up your group.  If past history
is any indication, you're guaranteed at least 125 'no' votes right out of
the box.  If you're not certain of being able to get at least twice that
many 'yes' votes, you're going to do everybody a lot more good by
organizing an Enya mailing list first. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

"Hello.  My name is Julie, and this is the M-16."
From: pearl@romulus.rutgers.edu (Starbuck)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:09:20 GMT
Organization: the Worlds Welfare Work Association, Rutgers Anime division

In article <30rjrhf@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

> Where groups belong is not based on where they should be created.  Anime
> is a type of animation, so it belongs under rec.arts.animation.  Manga are
> a type of comics, so it belongs under rec.arts.comics.

Anime is the Japanese word for Animation, not a "type" of animation.
When I purchase a Japanese magazine devoted to animation (Anime V,
Newtype, Animedia, Animage), they are just as likely to cover Tiny
Toons or Beauty & the Beast as Yamato.

rec.arts.animation was created for the readers who wished to read
about non-japanese animation without slogging through rec.arts.anime.

Shouldn't Manga readers get the same courtesy?  
(Btw, Manga is the Japanese word for Comics and not a type of Comics)


> This has been explained several times already.  You might consider
> paying attention this time.

Ditto

Steve
pearl@remus.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups