From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: Malvina Reynolds was:  Re: Little Boxes (was: another poem)
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:41:57 GMT

Hi, Lynne -- I wouldn't consider your note a flame. In fact, I agree with
most of it. I was mostly objecting to the hostility I was seeing against any
whiff of "femininity" as defined by society; I don't think that's a positive
attitude, and while I agree that it's a terrible shame the way some women
have been taught to express their femininity, it shouldn't make them an object
of scorn and ridicule, anymore than we deserved it as kids. They are a product
of their surroundings, and it's very difficult to detach from that. I'm all for
helping them do it any way I can, and I can't if I've decided already that 
they're hopeless, in an effort to stroke myself for my own individuality.

>I remember in very early school years how girls would run and jump and play
>and get dirty just as much as boys.  Then pressures from parents and society
>would come into play and we were encouraged to "act like little ladies",
>that is, not get dirty or run around like the crazy kids we were.   We
>were encouraged to be "soft", gentle and quiet-spoken.
>
>I've known a few men with "softer", gentle personalities.  I've know lots
>and lots of women with "softer" personalities.  Some of it may be gender
>related, but I feel that most of it is societal conditioning.  Because
>many women are conditioned into this state, I do admit to having a
>bias against it in women.

That's what I meant. Would you say that there was none of the God in men
with either "masculine" or "feminine" personalities? Of course not, because
we accept "feminine" men (and, in the counterculture, applaud them) as well
as "masculine" men. I'm just saying we should be as careful to accept that
there's a spark somewhere deep within even the most recalcitrant of women.

Sometimes it seems to me that we of the -- what would you call it? 
subculture, counterculture? -- applaud softer men and harder women, and
reject the usual stereotypes. I don't see how that's a particular improvement
and I hope we can get beyond all the stereotypes to relate to everyone.

>I don't have a problem with naturally good looking women.  I do have a 
>problem with women spending so much of their time trying to fit society's
>image of beautiful.  Why do so many women have the idea that their
>natural looks just aren't good enough, that they need "enhancing"?  
>Because so many women buy into this, I do admit to having a bias against
>artificial beauty (via makeup) as well.

I totally agree with this. However, if someone wants to spend their time
doing something that makes them feel better and more confident, why is it so
bad? Not everyone is ready to give up makeup yet; I wasn't for a long time.
Until a woman understands deeply what makeup means and accepts herself to a 
certain degree, it's very threatening to give it up, and it feels like we want
to take away something that's supportive. Some women wear makeup to feel 
stronger, and if that makes them more able to stand up to this society's
daily offense and assault, I feel that the end justifies the means. I hope 
we'll all be able to get along on our own eventually, but we must realize that
we're marching with the walking wounded here.

>I have a hard time seeing a capital-G Goddess in a women who has suppressed
>her natural abilities in order to attract mates or to fit in.  That, to me,
>is not Goddess-like behavior!  I have a hard time admiring a women who has
>intentionally done poorly in her classwork in order to keep her boyfriend.
>Or a woman who selects her career based on a desire to fit in rather than
>selecting one based on her talents and interest.  
>Marty, do you really find a Goddess in women who do these things?  What
>Goddess do you find?

A scared goddess, and an embryonic one. A goddess forming, but as yet unborn.

>Sometimes I do get a rush of excitement when I feel like I breaking down 
>barriers for women (by proving other people wrong about me, a women).  
>When someone (could be a man or women!) hears that I am an engineer, 
>they are often initially shocked.  Often enough, they will say something 
>really stupid like "But you're so nice and pretty looking".  I just
>hope that later on they will look at another women like myself and
>think "Hmmm, I wonder if she's an engineer too", and start thinking of
>women as potentially being engineers, not just secretaries and sales clerks.
>Do you think that it is wrong of me to get a rush over this?

No, as long as it's not at the expense of someone else, as in: "boy, aren't 
they stupid and unenlightened to make these assumptions!" and "See, I can do
something that those pathetic women over there can't do!". Please note that
I didn't accuse you of doing either of these things; I just say it's something
all of us maybe should watch out for.

It may sound ridiculous, but I'm trying to champion kindness and compassion
here -- of which the world has too little and can never have too much.

Marty

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Another beer, and then he eyes                 marty@world.std.com
The barmaid's legs and waist and thighs.        Marty Hale-Evans
'Needs to lose some weight,' he grunts,         89 Mass. Ave., Suite 199
'But just the same, I'd fuck her once.'         Boston, MA  02115
He orders pizza, buys a round,              M    @    *    O    %    8    U
Gains an appetizing pound."                \|/  \|/  \|/  \|/  \|/  \|/  \|/
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