HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Characters I Hate to Love
Date: 1 Oct 1992 08:02:52 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


On the recent "books I hate to love" thread:

There are characters who fascinate me, and who I can't help admiring, even
though I know that I should be rooting for their downfall, and often do,
while deploring its necessity.

Case in point:  The Draka people, of S.M. Stirling's novels (_Marching
Through Georgia_, _Under the Yoke_, and _The Stone Dogs_.)

Another case  in point is Professor Moriarty.

Anybody else got any comments?

s
-- 
Note to the Constitutionally impaired:  "...the RIGHT of the people to KEEP
and BEAR arms..." means EXACTLY what it says!
Vote Libertarian, Grassroots, or any third party...the Demopublicans are a
bipartisan evil!        "Technomad"  cc697@cleveland.freenet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: Dewey Decimal for some authors
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 00:58:43 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <6965@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.155628.21009@cs.cornell.edu>  
>moudgill@cs.cornell.edu ( Mayan Moudgill) writes:
>> Here are the dewey decimal numbers for some authors.
>> (I've got a list of about 150 authors. These are the authors in the
>> first quarter of the list which our library has).
>> 
>> [snip!]
>
>Those don't look like Dewey Decimal numbers, which sometimes
>end with letters but never begin with them.  Are they
>perhaps Library of Congress numbers? (I don't now Library of
>Congress near as well as I know Dewey Decimal, since I grew up
>with the latter, and my local library still uses it.)

Yeah.  Those look like LoC.  Besides, the Dewey system doesn't even
assign numbers to fiction (with the possible exception of biography.
;-).  It just gets filed in alphabetical order of author's (last)
name.  Also conspicuously missing is the plethora of Isaac Asimov
references. ;-)

>Jim Mann            
>Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cpeckham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Peckham)
Subject: Recommendations??
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 17:15:20 GMT

Hi,
Can anyone out there recommend some good sf/f stories and authors
which investigate any of the following:

1) Unusual/questioning relationships between _good_ and _evil_

2) Loss of innocence/corruption by _evil_

3) Mysticism and ambiguity

I am particularly interested in the fantasy genre, and in
both human and non-human characterisation.

Thanks for your help- you can never get this information
from the typical book blurb.

Chris
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: Looking for 2 books: help on author & title needed.
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:06:38 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <RENE.92Sep29114901@solsort.iesd.auc.dk> rene@iesd.auc.dk (Rene Boe Soerensen) writes:

>This weekend a friend of mine and I started to discuss some of the
>fantasy and science-fiction books we have read. I told him of two
>books I have read, of which I couldn't remember the author and the
>title, but only some of the plot. Now I'm hoping that some of you out
>there can help me to find these books again.

>The first book was about a second rate actor who gets drafted into
>acting as President/Ambassador/Businessman when this P./A./B. gets
>kidnapped, since he has a striking similarity to this P./A./B. and
>this P./A./B. has to appear before the public. This is done to gain
>time to find the real P./A./B.

Heinlein... Double Star

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Robert Jordan's "THE SHADOW RISING" (spoilers!)
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:48:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

uprao@mcl.ucsb.edu:
>Perrin should NOT have survived...

One of the strengths of the series is also one of its greatest weaknesses --
the idea that the main characters are ta'vern (sp?) -- people whose effects
upon fate make them, among things, the foci of far-fetched coincidence
and happenstance.  This serves to explain away any improability in the
story, but it also frees the author from the obligation to keep his plot
devices credible.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down.  It's going to be the
   best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you can do that kills
   you! -- Dorothy Parker
From: warda@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Weirdstone location? (Was Re:Alan Garner)
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:45:33 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

>      I used to spend hours with Weirdstone, Gomrath, and the
> appropriate Ordnance Survey map, tracing out the travels of the
> characters (Red Shift is also set in the same general area).
> 
Where was Weirdstone set?  Is "Alderley" a real place I can look up in the OS 
atlas?

Cheers,

   Bill Bennett                           JANET: warda@uk.ac.oxford.vax    
   CRC Growth Factors Research Group   Internet: warda%vax.oxford.ac.uk
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992 10:20:56 PST
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Author Polls -- Tanith Lee

Welcome to the author polls.  This week's author is, oddly
enough, Tanith Lee.

INTRO to AUTHOR POLLS  (skip if you've participated before):

   Since no two readers can generally be expected to agree
   about the quality of a given author, an overall poll
   like that used in rec.arts.movies would be useless
   except as an incendiary.  However, there is often good
   agreement about which books by a given author are most
   worthy: thus this poll.

IF YOU MISSED AN EARLIER POLL and want to contribute, please
   feel free to DO SO.

BALLOT FORMAT  (read this once):

   You have four votes, one each at +3, +2, +1, and -1. You
   may vote for a work of any length, though you may wish
   to restrict yourself to the form in which the author was
   most prolific.

SAMPLE BALLOT (just a reminder):

   + 3 <vote for at most one work>
   + 2 <vote for at most one work>
   + 1 <vote for at most one work>
   - 1 <vote for at most one work>

SEND BALLOTS TO THIS ADDRESS.  If you prefer multiple choice,
you can obtain fairly complete bibliographies by anonymous ftp
from gandalf.rutgers.edu, in /pub/sfl/authorlists.

LAST WEEK'S RESULTS:

Greg Bear
---------
 Eon                               +  26
 Blood Music                       +  17
 Queen of Angels                   +  16
 Infinity Concerto                 +  11
 Forge of God                      +  10
 Serpent Mage                      +   9
 Heads                             +   5
 Eternity                          +   3
 Anvil of Stars                    +   2
 Petra                             +   1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PREVIOUS AUTHORS (for listings, EMail to this address):
  Roger Zelazny
  Orson Scott Card
  Ursula K. Le Guin
  Larry Niven
  Robert A. Heinlein
  C.J. Cherryh
  David Brin
  Arthur C. Clarke
  Isaac Asimov
  John Brunner
  Jack Vance
  Philip K. Dick
  Samuel R. Delany
  Robert Silverberg
  Greg Bear
  Philip Jose Farmer
  Frederick Pohl
  Stanislaw Lem
  Poul Anderson
  Gordon R. Dickson
  Cordwainer Smith
  Walter Jon Williams
  Fritz Leiber
  Clifford D. Simak
  Greg Bear
  Harlan Ellison
  Theodore Sturgeon
From: ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:26:59 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

In article <3OCT199205195127@rosie.uh.edu>, st1rk@rosie.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin) writes:

> Anyone interested in the scenario?  The world is set up such
> that members of the same sex often are lovers, with the caveat
> that you must produce at least one child. The plot is heavily
> mythological and, at least for me, the outcome is totally
> irrelevant. The mood of the books is enough to satisfy me.
> Definitely one of the top ten series for me.

Regarding the idea of members of the same sex being lovers, Mercedes
Lackey's The Last Herald Mage series contains the same idea (called
shay a'chern).  Wonder who got the inspiration from whom.

#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
|  W.H.Watt                        #  JANET:                                   |
|  Dept. of Accounting & Finance   #           w.h.watt@uk.ac.strath.vaxa      |
|  University of Strathclyde       #  Rest of the World:                       |
|  Glasgow                         #           w.h.watt@vaxa.strath.ac.uk      |
|  United Kingdom                  #                                           |
#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eschneid@sparc53.tamu.edu (Erich R Schneider)
Subject: Re: Any Brin news ?
Organization: Texas A&M University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 04:37:23 GMT

In article <LAVONIUS.92Sep26161048@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> lavonius@kruuna.Helsinki.FI (Ville Lavonius) writes:

>Has David Brin published or given any notice when he will publish the
>fourth Uplift novel. The last bits of info I've got are from Gurps Uplift,
>(some 18 mo's ago), where there was clues of a novel called Sooners.

David Brin has submitted his latest novel, _Stratos_, to the publishers.
It is not an Uplift novel, and will be on the shelves in mid-1993.

He is currently working on the next Uplift novel, now titled
_Brightness Reef_. It will feature the members of the _Streaker_ crew
who remained on board the ship (i.e. Gillian, Makanee, Lucky Kaa, etc.)
rather than those on the skiff (Tom Orley, Toshio, Dennie, Charles Dart,
Creideiki, etc.).
--
Erich Schneider  eschneid@cs.tamu.edu

"The Hierophant is Disguised and Confused."
From: takkyon@dartmouth.edu (Dr. Tachyon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Eddings : Domes of Fire.
Date: 5 Oct 92 05:01:36 GMT
Organization: PsiLords of Takis Health Club and Massage Parlor
X-Useragent: Diamond Mask v2.7b5


In article [snip] hunt@oils.ozy.dec.com (Peter Hunt) wrote:
>
>	I saw numerous copies of a new David Eddings book, _Domes of Fire_
>, in a bookshop last week. 

Nooooo!!!!  Run while you still can...

>It's the first in a new series 

Oooooh, shocker.

>[minor snip]
>basically, from flicking through it, it's more of the same. A repeat
plot,
>with one-dimensional characters acting in predictable ways.

Um, you were expecting something *else*? :)

		-- dt

--
"Live steady.  Don't f*ck around.  Give everything weird a wide berth --
including people."
					-- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell)
Subject: Re: Looking for Magical Books
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 20:30:26 GMT

In article <2acc9b1e@ESS.NIAID.pc.niaid.nih.gov>, James_Williams@ess.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.GOV (James Williams) writes:
|> I realize that there is an over abundance of fantasy novels dealing with 
|> magic.  I am looking for books which deal with two topics related 
|> to magic:  the origin and nature of magic, -or- a realistic and logical 
|> heirarcy amoung the magicians (i.e. logical ranks and titles)?    
|> 
|> Any suggestions would be appreciated!
|> 
|> Thanks
|> 
|> --------------------------------------------
|> | James Williams                           |
|> | Bitnet: JWW%ESS%NIAID@NIH3PLUS.BITNET    |
|> | Internet: JWW@ESS.NIAID.PC.NIAID.NIH.GOV |
|> | CompuServ: 70304,2462                    |
|> -------------------------------------------- 
I remember reading a book some years back that dealt with a young magician's
education in a college of magicians and his first adventure, where he went out
to defeat a more experienced mage.  This might fit your category of heirarcy
among magicians.  The name of the book is _Crispin Makicker_, but I don't 
remember the author.  Any help there would be appreciated.

Mike McConnell
Dept. of Mathematics
Kent State University
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: SF Titles
Reply-To: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque,,,,)
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:37:09 GMT

[I apologize if you've seen this before; I've been having trouble
posting because of a full disk.]

cpf@alchemy.TN.Cornell.EDU (Courtenay Footman) writes:
>
>The best example I know of is Kuttner's "Clash By Night".  I read this
>when I was a young teenager, and just enjoyed the story (Mercenaries on
>Venus) without thinking too much about it.  Then I discovered where the
>title came from:  the original quote was "... as on a darkling plane,
>where ignorant armies clash by night."  This quote totally turned the
>meaning of the story around for me.

Another one from this line of poetry (which you fail to mention is from 
Matthew Arnold's Dover Beach) is _On a Darkling Plain_ (isn't it spelled
"plain" in the original line?) by Ben Bova.  I had read Dover Beach
in high school and I seem to remember that that influenced my decision
to read Bova's book.  So I guess the allusion worked one way or
another.

Now all we need to do is find a book titled _Ignorant Armies_ and the
entire line will have been recycled.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
From: mbowman@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Michael Bowman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff
Date: 4 Oct 92 23:39:41 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Regarding Dorcas and the waiter:

John Clute (in _Strokes_, a collection of reviews and essays) contends that
Dorcas is Severian's GRANDmother, not his mother.  He thinks that the waiter
is her son (and hence Severian's father) and that the old man is her husband
(and Severian's grandfather).  His questions was: Who is Severian's mother?
His answer is that it was the Autarch.


Michael Bowman
bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu
From: S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: julian may
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:09:43 GMT

ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) wrote:
> Kevin Adams (kevina@.uucp) wrote:
> : In article <1acp7rINN3qp@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>, cbrunson@vermont.East.Sun.COM (Chuck Brunson - Sun BOS Corporate Software Engineering) writes:
> : > Is "Intervention" just a combination of "The Surveillance" and
> : > "The Metaconcert" or is it something more?

> : "Intervention" was the single hardcover version of the two paperbacks.

> "Intervention" was published as a paperback in Australia also.

And ditto for the UK. 

I'm two thirds of the way through reading it now as it happens, just a
short way into Part III "The Intervention".  Although it was published
here in paperback in 1988 (a year after the hardcover publication) I
didn't come across it until March of this year (mine is a copy of the
fifth printing). It then spent more than six months queued up on my
shelf of books waiting to be read. 

So far I'm finding it rather more of a "wish fulfilment" story than I
remeber the four "Saga of the Exiles" books being, but it's still
proving enjoyable for all that. I hadn't guessed who the family ghost
was, but having recently read the answer on the net I can see that it
fits pretty well.

I guess I'll have to wait quite a while yet for "Jack the Bodiless" as
it's only recently appeared over here in hardcover...

-- 
Regards

Steve Fagg      ( S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk +44-279-402437 )
BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA, UK

*** "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown". ***
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
From: Laurie Cardon <LIBLXC@BYUVM.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 2 Oct 1992 10:22:15 MDT
 <1992Oct1.165906.11497@genie.slhs.udel.edu><1687313D31.YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu>
Organization: Brigham Young University

>>I have a notion that the bad characters are generally more interesting
>>than the good ones ...
>
>    My own pet "theory" is that the Western (Judeo-Christian) culture
>admires active protagonists, rather than passive victims.  A lot of
>"heroes" react to a situation rather than act...

While I find the thesis has some merit, I take 'slight' exception to
the example below:

>   This idea came to me a few years ago while writing a paper on the
>Book of Job_ (The Bible, not the Heinlein story.)  where I thought
>of the black sheep story:  Where Jesus told a parable of a good
>son and the bad son.  The bad son got half of his father's money.
>split, partied hardy, and came back broke.  The father, seeing his
>son again, forgave him, and set the bad son up with money again.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No offense, but this last part is mistaken.  The father forgave him,
and killed the 'fatted calf' for him (oohhh, veal, very non-pc :-)
but he didn't give him more money.

>Naturally, the good son, who had stayed with his father, got pissed off,
>and complained.  The father explained that you are happier when
>a strayed black sheep comes back to the flock, than when the good
>sheeps stay in the flock.

Before the father says the wayward brother's homecoming is worth partying
over, he says to the obedient brother:  'Son ... all that I have is thine'
(Luke 15:31).  The younger son, while welcome, will be forced to provide
for his own expenses in the future.

>    Nice story; Lousy incentive scheme.

Agreed :-)

                                Laurie
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Subject: Re: Heinlein reference in Sturgeons "The Golden Helix"
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:00:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.185405.3417@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>  Some 22 pages into the short story "The Golden Helix" by
>Theodore Sturgeon I read the following lines: 
>  "Then an old, old tale tale flashed into his mind, an early thing
>from the ancient Amerenglish, by Hynlen (Henlyne, was it? no matter)
>about a man who tried to convey to humanity a description of the
>superbeings who had captured him, with only his body as a tablet and
>his nails as a stylus. Perhaps he was mad at the time he finished, 
>but his message was clear at least to him: 'Creation took eight 
>days'. ".
>  This clearly a Heinlein reference but where is it from?

 Believe this is  from the story "Goldfish Bowl" by Heinlein.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: as232@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Lerner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Duncan:  The Cutting Edge (minor spoilers)
Date: 27 Sep 1992 00:32:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Any word when the Final book will be out in PAPERBACK?  Maybe by 1996?

Mike
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: spb0457@venus.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:52:00 GMT

Curtis Yarvin writes...
>SubGenius writes:
>|Curtis Yarvin writes...
>|>One would expect this, since Hoban is not a hack.  But how does
>|>respelling common English words help?  I can understand
>|>inventing new words for concepts which do not exist in present
>|>society, but (to pick the first word I saw, when I opened the
>|>book) what does spelling "kind" as "kynd" do for a novel?
>|>The mode of this question is curious, not rhetorical.
>|
>|Given that most r.a.b.bers can't function flawlessly in the construction of
>|sentences or rendering of spellings with (one would guess) many years of
>|formal education geared toward that end, it would be a bit of a stretch
>|to expect a hunter/gatherer to manage said feat(s).

>Sure; but it is perfectly acceptable, and usual, for the author to provide
>translation for a story not set in the reader's tongue.  The difference
>between alternate orthography and alternate language is null.
>You're being disingenuous, SubGenius.
>c

+----------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Now imagine that you're criticising Sam Clements instead of Russel Hoban:

Quoteth Huck:  "What ho, negro?  Hast thou finished thine work?  And a fine
job thou dost, verily!"









"Don't worry:  I
 speak jive."
Yours etc.,




SubGenius

[There's also quite a bit of clever verbage I could have vented about that
 bit about "stories not set in the readers' tongue," but I foreswear such
 cheap laffage.  Well, this time anyway.]

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: REBECCA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (Rebecca Drayer)
Subject: Re: Julian may: history of the rebellion??
Organization: Yale University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:39:54 EDT

In article <WMPERRY.92Sep24154239@blueberry.ucs.indiana.edu>
wmperry@blueberry.ucs.indiana.edu (William M. Perry) writes:
 
>She's working on it now as far as I know.  The new books (Jack The
>Bodiless, etc) are working up to the metapsychic rebellion right now.
>I ordered Jack The Bodiless about 5 months ago from a book club here
>in the US (The Science Fiction Book Club), and thoroughly enjoyed it.
>At the end of the book, she says there are more to come.  Not sure
>what the exact dates are though.
 
What I'm wondering is whether or not there will be any more books AFTER the
Milieu trilogy.  I really want to know how Marc and Elizabeth will fare in the
Duat Galaxy, and am curious if any books like that are in the planning stage.
(My personal theory is that the Family Ghost is a sort of duality of Marc's
and Elizabeth's minds, rather like the one Felice and Culluket became in _The
Non-Born King_.  I didn't get a chance to finish _Intervention_ yet, so I
could be stating common knowledge.)
 
 
 
*************************************************************************
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P.O. Box 6349 Yale Station    |    Computing Assistant
New Haven, CT 06520           |    Silliman College, Yale University
 
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite
you.  This is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
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