From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 17 Apr 92 03:20:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
>In article <adams.703452580@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
>>>I wrote:

>Isn't all sin disobedience?
Yes, of course.  Sin is saying 'No' to God.

>>>God did create Adam as a murderer, so murder is not a "natural" act for
>>>a man to commit.

>>God created everything, and as such, is the
>>creator of all things, good and evil.  Murder could not exist without God's
>>permission.  He created man *capable* of murder.

>However, in Adam's original state he was not created a murderer.  Murder
>came in after he was corrupted by sin.  

But if Adam was perfect, how could he be corrupted by sin?  How did sin
enter the world if God is perfectly good and is all powerful?  (See my post
on the topic, if interested, or I can mail it if you missed it)

>>>John said that the one who hates his brother is a murderer.  Little children
>>>can hate.  Do we say that hate is natural an not sinful because it appears
>>>early on in life?  Of course not.  Hate occurs because sin entered the world.  It is another of sin's corrupting
>>Hah. Hate is learned.  Homosexuality is not.  It is innate and inherant.
>>You no more chose to be heterosexual (nor did I) than anyone choses to be
>>homosexual.  It is not learned.  Hate *is* learned.

>Hah?
Sorry, that was uncalled for.  I erred.

>You could go smack a little toddler in the face and see if hate is learned.
>I can remember hating when I was 4.  I certainly did not know much of anything
>about sexual attraction at that age.   Why do you say that hate is learned?
>Did you have to say, "Mommy, what is hate" and get an answer before you
>could hate when you were a child?

I do not think smacking my child in the face (or on the butt, which I do on
occasion) causes him to hate.  It causes resentment and/or fear, but not
hate.  Real true hate comes as we see how others treat those that they do
not like or do not wish to associate with.  A child learns responses by
observing his environment.

>>He may provide me with grace
>>to understand why I am wrong, but I only change when I stop saying 'No' to
>>God.  

>We are to yeild to His hand, but without His pressing, we could not change.
Well, I'll have to stick with Luther here.  God only gives grace to
understand Scripture or follow Him.  He does not act directly to force you.
He provides the evidence, and you decide.  Ultimately, you are permitted to
reject him, if you wish.

>>As for homosexuals, you must compare them with heterosexuals.  What is
>>natural for heterosexuals is unnatural for homosexuals and vice-versa.
>>They are both innate traints, well inside our physiologcal and mental selves
>>that we can no more change than we can move the sun from it's path.

>Doctors, (medical and phd) are still arguing over this.  
Yes, but there appears to be a link between certain physiological
differences.  Just as there are physiological differences between men and
women.  I do believe that homosexuality has been removed from the official
list of mental illnesses, but I could be mistaken.

>Heterosexual desire can be evil too.  But we are not to yeild to evil
>desires.  We are to mortify the deads of the body, so that we can live.
Every desire, especially desire for excess can be wrong.  The temptations
presented are often sexual.

>>Why would a loving, omnipotent God create a being who could not gain
>>salvation?

>Is this a predestination question?  If it is dealing with homosexuality,
>God can change the heart of an obedient man.  (He even hardened the 
>heart of the disobedient Pharoah.)  The weakness of the flesh is no
>reason to be disobedient.  Jesus was human and He did not sin.
But Jesus, while being fully human, was also fully God, and as such, cannot
be compared to any 'normal' man.

I think that Pharoah was predisposed to act against Moses and the
Israelites...after all, he was holding them in slavery.

But yes, it is a predestination question...

 -Steve
-- 
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558