From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Date: 2 Sep 1992 18:49:43 GMT
Organization: Hmmmmmmmmmm
NNTP-Posting-Host: earlybird


 
 >  ljf wrote:
 >  I don't agree with that.  If a 4 year old is asked (not
 >  coerced) into fellating an adult man, no harm is done?
 > 
 > Tom Chapin replies:
 > When I was sixteen or seventeen, a friend related that a few nights
 > previously his brother, age 5 or so, came into his bed and performed
 > fellatio on him.  He pretended to be asleep and did nothing.
 > Did the older brother harm the younger brother by passively allowing
 > his younger brother to perform incestuous fellatio on him?  Would
 
 I wrote:
 >Once again Mr. Chapin sidetracks the issue. The question asked
 >remains unanswered. Mr. Chapin instead relates some other story.
 
 Tom Chapin writes:
 (I had already answered the question when I had previously noted that
 in any situation of clear power differential, the weaker party should
 be the initiator.)

And I and ljf had already noted that when the weaker party is 
below a certain age, it is STILL unconscionable to condone sexual
relations between much-older-adults and much-younger-children.

The fact is ljf asked you a direct, closed question. Yes or no
with explanation would have been sufficient. Instead you related
an unusual second-hand story, which seems to be your wont. You
seem to prefer the "exception" to show that the "rule" is
unwarranted; this remains unconvincing.

 The given question was based on false assumptions.  My example was
 meant to graphically show the weakness of those assumptions.  Among
 the assumptions:  1) all sexuality with a large age differential is
 inevitably harmful to the younger, 2) all sexuality with a large
 age differential is instigated by the older party, 3) young children
 are sexless creatures with no inherent interest in the subject.  The
 example showed all three assumptions to be false.

These assumptions are ones you have attributed to others. No
one else has actually made them, your claim notwithstanding.

If you would care to quote me or someone else in this thread
to that effect, I await your attribution.

The fact is, we don't know whether (1) is true or not (as
regards children of a certain age). You point to 1st and 2nd
person accounts from the people who were involved with this
activity when they were children.

As has been pointed out, those circumstances can be considered
unusual and we don't know what the harm is/was/will be. Cite
me a study that says otherwise and I'd be glad to reconsider.

In any event, (1), (2), and (3) even if shown to be false
do not support the case either individually or collectively
that older-adult younger-child sex ought to be encouraged,
or that laws ought to be changed to that effect; in this
regard, your post proves nothing and provides no new
information.

I agree that children are sexual, that sexuality is not
inherently bad, that two people who are close in age,
one being a minor, the other at the age of majority
who want to or who do have sex need may be in an
unfair situation with respect to current law, but this
is not the topic.

In case you forgot or simply didn't read the posts to which
I and others were responding which you responded to, original
arguments were posted in which it was commented that society
ought to condone:

parent-child incest,
older-adult younger-child sex, and
public masturbation.

 Since you appear to strongly support those three false assumptions,
 i wouldn't wonder that you would try to avoid its implications, and
 try to sidestep it as being just "some other story."

I do not "strongly support those three false assumptions", as
it is *you* not I who is making the case for society condoning
adult-child sex. The burden of making the case is yours. 

 >Also, assuming the story is true, one would have to wonder 
 >WHERE the 5 year old LEARNED that behavior?
 
 Why?  Is your mind preparing to eagerly leer, hoping to find some
 smut to wallow in?  Maybe if you are really, really lucky you'll get
 relish a tale of lurid pedophilia, all the while solemnly intoning,
 "Oh, naughty, horror!"

As usual you completely avoid the question and go off on a
tangent.

Let me remind you that it is *you* who are providing these
"stories".

It is you who seems inordinately fond of making
adult-child sex less taboo in our society. It is you who
supposedly had no fear of adults at and were masturbating at
age 3, and so on, and so on.

It is you who claimed that a recent exchange in
this thread was tantamount to emotional abuse, when IMO
any reasonable person would disagree with you.

You have continued to evade the central points I have
made, by providing tangentially related stories and
opinions and although it has been pointed out to you
again and again, you do not seem to "get" that your
experience is unusual; therefore, the basis for how
you form your opinions is also unusual.

I am not the only one who has pointed this out.

You attribute assumptions that are of your own making,
and then provide irrelevant stories as counter-evidence.

Your arguments remain unconvincing.

The fact that you see no harm in a 5 year old boy 
fellating his 18 year old brother reinforces my
opinion that you are "unusual".

Dano

Xref: sparky soc.men:15515 soc.women:15809 alt.child-support:2923