From: brinkley@cs.utexas.edu (Paul Brinkley)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: control
Date: 25 Jan 1993 16:48:56 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: ar-rimal.cs.utexas.edu


The following are exchanges between me and Adrienne Regard.

>>>>>If your nose is inside the womans body, she should be free to punch it
>>>>>as much as she wants.
>...Okay, I'll play along with that.  But what if I had no choice whether my
>...nose was there or not?
>
>>>Okay, let's all play along with that.
>>>What *if* you had no choice, but your nose was in fact inside the woman's
>>>body.
>>>Do you *seriously* propose she should just have to put up with your nose?
>
>>Good point.  Normally I wouldn't.  And the analogy breaks down around here,
>>since in this case it's not just a nose, but an entire life (I note that
>>"life" is arguable) inside.  And assuming it is a human life, which by
>>sheer misfortune found itself inside a womb, it would be most unfair for
>                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>him or her to have to die in deference to another human life's right to
>>privacy.
>
>Why?
>
>Why would that be 'most unfair'?  Why would it not be MORE unfair to require
>a living, breathing, sentient human woman decide whether or not to harbor
>these people within her body if *she* chose to do so, or not?  Why does she
>suddenly disappear from this picture when it is *her* body that is having
>to do the work?

You know, I just played this game with a friend of mine this morning.  He's
pro-life, and so I offered him a sample of the pro-choice arguments I found
here.  His views are perhaps a tad extreme; he doesn't believe the fetus is
even a part of the mother, on the grounds that it's something the mother's
body would reject if not for the placental wall surrounding it.  Therefore,
the mother's rights don't extend into the womb, period.

I replied that she _still_ has to carry some umpty-ump pounds of water
around for nine months, and take part in a process with a considerably
high chance of developing medical complications, and so part of her body
or not, she's definitely involved.  He replied that "it's possible to have
it taken out".  I replied that the cost would be prohibitive.  He said it
didn't matter in this case, and I realized once again how hard it is to
change someone's mind on an issue like this.

In conclusion, yes, her body is having to do the work.  And I will most
certainly agree that her rights will be infringed were the government to
decide in favor of the unborn child.  I did not mean to imply otherwise,
and I apologize if my post appeared to treat women as "fetal containers".

>>Were it up to me, I
>>would look for another alternative.
>
>Can you tell us what other alternatives occur to you?

I admit, not a whole lot.  Embryo transplants.  "Metal mommas".  Better
contraceptives.  I fear our medical expert, Mark Cochran (who _still_
won't tell me what T.S.A.K.C. stands for), could knock most of my ideas
down as impractical, since he could argue circles around me when it
comes to the medical profession.

But then, I'm just one person, and a CS major at that.  There _are_
other people working on "another alternative", people who are more
qualified than I.  To be truthful, I subscribed to this newsgroup mainly
to sharpen my debating skills, but maybe I ought to look in this a bit
more.  I encourage you all to do the same.

It seems the majority of the population sees this is a problem with only
two solutions:  either the fetus gets its life, or the mother gets her
privacy.  But everything I've ever experienced - every book I've read,
every show I've watched, every lesson I've ever learned from my parents -
forces me to come to the conclusion that if you work hard enough on it,
you can have your cake, eat it, and lose weight in the process. :)

In other words, I refuse to think of this as "Mother vs. Fetus in the
Battle of the Century", one must win, the other must lose.  I'd rather
see both win.

Paul Brinkley
brinkley@cs.utexas.edu
Pro-Thought Advocate

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