From: tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:00:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.175429.11674@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>Rape is rape is rape.  It is an absolute.

Yup.  Although the law (rightly) recognizes different degrees, aggrevating
circumstances, etc.

>To fantasize about rape is always
>the prelude to the act.  Do you actually believe that men (or women) who
>commit rape do not fantasize about it first.  If so then you're stupid.  And
>as far as the "medical experts" opinion goes, *SO WHAT*!

No new comments here.  It's all been said already, both ways.

>It doesn't change
>the fact that rapists are non-human pieces of sewer scum and should be executed
>publically.

Emotionally satisfying as that might be, it doesn't seem practical.
Giving a rapist "nothing more to lose"  would be an incentive for
eliminating the only witness, so probably more rapes would end in murder.

>It doesn't change the fact that anyone who fantasizes about rape
>is a potential rapist and should get help before it's too late.

If the stats posted have any meaning whatsoever, this would mean that the
vast majority of people need help.  And if "help" means straightening out
misconceptions, through counseling, education, etc.  I'm willing to accept that
as true.  (the distinction can seem a little blurry sometimes--if you travel to
high schools and give lectures/lead discussions about date rape, sexual abuse,
etc.  is this "counseling" or "education?"  Whatever you call it, it's a good
idea.)  The distribution throughout society of this sort of information is
improving, but we still have a long way to go.  Otherwise, this newsgroup (to
name an example) would be superfluous.

It seems that the type of fantasy, the frequency of the fantasy, and the
intensity of the fantasy are cues to whether it's harmless or not.  Anyone
who fantasizes about rape most of the time, who gets a distinct and heady
pleasure out of the fantasy, who doesn't feel truly alive unless they are
fantasizing about raping somebody, had better get help before this fantasy
ruins more than one life.

>"Medical
>expert" with regard to the human psyche is an oxymoron anyway.  How can a
>person be an expert on something nobody fully understands ????

Any type of academic research (and most other types of research, too) is
conducted by experts who don't fully understand what they're studying.  If
they did, they wouldn't need to do the research.  The above statement
seems an honest expression of feeling, but logically, it is so flat as to
be meaningless.

>And as for
>nobody condoning rape I concede that you are technically right.  I mean I don't
>remember anything like: "Hey I think rape is fine.  Let's all go out and
>force someone to have sex with us!"

No, but further back, people have come closer than I'm comfortable with.
Before the present flaming discussions began, there was the "Take Back the
Dildo" post, an offensive, sickening rant defending some of the most
dangerous misconceptions about rape.  Worse than anything that's come up
in the "Rape Films List" era.  May seem hard to believe for newer readers,
but it's true.  The only reason that I didn't flame the guy back to the
stone age (actually, a local trip in this case) was that by the time I got
to it, the other regulars had picked it apart so well that there were no
good targets left.

>But I have seen people suggest that
>viewing rape scenes on film is just peachy!

Not for you, I'm sure.  And, it's easy to see why you'ld be upset at the
idea that other would watch them.  Like other parts of your posts, it
brings up other ideas.  (For example, one's opinion on the death penalty
for rapists is heavily influenced by one's opinion on the death penalty in
general.)  Plato, in the _Republic_,  advocated heavy censorship of all
art forms due to their influence on public morals.  I prefer to counter
bad information with good information.  So, if people watch a movie that
treats rape lightly, or seems to, they may get reinforcement of
misconceptions from that (i.e. believing that rape is not "serious.")  the
more rape victims tell their stories, the more information is spread about
the serious harm done by rape, then the more we can counteract the
misconceptions.  


>And others who view rapists as
>poor little innocent people who are just deeply disturbed.  Gimme a break!

They are deeply disturbed, and many (not all) are victims of abuse.  When
they commit a rape, they cease to be innocent.  I find no contradiction in
the fact that I could (say, as a juror) pity somebody at the same time
that I convicted them, and thus condemned them to a long prison sentance,
or even death.  (For all you legal eagles out there, in NC the jury
votes on whether to impose the death penalty).

>I neglected to mention people who fantasize about being raped.  All I can say
>here is that I feel confident that if such a person could add to that fantasy
>the physical, emotional, and spiritual trauma suffered by a true rape victim,
>the 'fun' would go out of the experience pretty quick.

It's been made clear, through the flamage (congrats to DC and Erica for
keeping the information flowing through the disagreements, BTW) that these
fantasies specicifically do NOT include the damaging aspects.

Of course, there is another kind of fantasy of being raped, in which one
imagines what one would do if such-and-such happened.  After all, fantasy
is the way we deal with hypotheticals, so if the hypothetical becomes
real, we aren't blindsided, but have some idea how we want to deal with
it.  DC's homosexual rape fantasies have involved murdering the rapist.
(And I don't think that makes him a real murder threat.)

BTW, for those who wonder, I don't tend to indulge in rape fantasies.
I can only recall one within the last decade.  It was a sick and twisted one
that started with a murder, and ended with my own suicide, not one I had any
intention of fulfilling.  If you think I needed counseling, I can only say
that it wouldn't have hurt, but doesn't seem to have been necessary.  Before
that, the most recent ones I can remember were nebulous ones in my early
teens, before I understood what rape really was.  Rape fantasies make me
ill.  But I have my own reasons for this, and those don't apply to anybody
but me.

>Got anymore comments bright boy (girl) ?
>
>KimmyD


-- 
--
Charles R. Tenney	tenney@med.unc.edu   | What would the UNC school of
					     | Medicine want with my opinions?
	"My karma ran over my dogma."	     | What would I want with theirs?