From: kuno@gssm.otsuka.tsukuba.ac.jp (Yasushi Kuno)
Newsgroups: fj.news.group
Subject: CFD/CFA fj.life.in-japan [English+Japanese]
Date: 24 Jul 92 05:46:21 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: GSSM Otsuka, Univ. of TSUKUBA, Tokyo, Japan

Hi, ...
$B5WLn$G$9!"(J

Here I declare CFD/CFA for a new newsgroup fj.life.in-japan.
$B$3$3$K?7$7$$%0%k!<%W(Jfj.life.in-japan$B$N(JCFA/CFD$B$r$5$;$FD:$-$^$9!#(J

Name of the group:	fj.life.in-japan

Charter:
     Communication channel for foreigners living in Japan, between
     themselves and with those who are willing to contribute.
     $BF|K\$G@83h$7$F$$$k309q?M!"$*$h$S$=$l$i$N?M$H8rN.$7$h$&$H;W$&(J
     $B?M$N$?$a$N>l(J

If you have any objection, please post an article titled
"Objection: fj.life.in-japan" or such, or alternatively,
send an e-mail to me.
$B$b$70[5D$,$*$"$j$G$7$?$i!"(J"Objection: fj.life.in-japan"$B$N$h$&$K(J
$BL@$i$+$J%?%$%H%k$G$3$N%0%k!<%W$KI=L@$7$FD:$/$+!"$^$?$O;d$"$F$=$N(J
$B;]%a!<%k$rD:$-$?$$$G$9!#(J

If no objection is encountered, this CFA will succeed on the
August 7th, and I shall ask the newsgroup manager(s?) for the
creation.
$B$b$70[5D$,$J$1$l$P(JCFA$B$O(J8$B7n(J7$BF|$K@.N)$7$^$9!#$=$N>l9g$O%K%e!<%9%0(J
$B%k!<%W4IM}<T$NJ}$K:n@.$r$*4j$$$9$k$D$b$j$G$9!#(J

Followings are suggested goals of the group, and summary of
previous discussion.  I appreciate many people contributed
so far.
$B0J2<$K%0%k!<%W:n@.$NL\E*(J($B0F(J)$B$H!"$3$l$^$G$N5DO@$NMWLs$r$D$1$F$*$-(J
$B$^$9!#:#$^$G$K$46(NO2<$5$C$?3'MM$K46<UCW$7$^$9!#(J

						    Yasushi Kuno
							    $B5WLn(J

-----------------

Suggested Goal of the Group:
$B$3$N%0%k!<%W$NL\I8$H$7$FDs0F$5$l$F$$$k$3$H(J:

G1. To attract the topics related to foreigners in Japan and
    information they need, and increase the opportunities for discussions
    and exchanges of information.
    $BF|K\$K:_=;$9$k309q?M$K4X78$9$kOCBj!"H`$i$,I,MW$H$9$k>pJs$r=8Cf$7$F!"(J
    $B0U8+!?>pJs$r8r49$9$k5!2q$rA}$d$9!#(J

G2. To increase the opportunities for foreigners in Japan with
    difficulty in writing/reading Japanese to communicate with public
    in whatever language.
    $BF|K\8l$NFI$_=q$-$K:$Fq$,$"$k:_F|309q?M$,!"$I$s$J8@8l$G$"$l(J
    $BITFCDjB??t$H%3%_%e%K%1!<%H$G$-$k5!2q$rA}$d$9!#(J

G3. To increase the opportunites for Japanese who are prepared to
    communicate in non-Japanese languages to interact with foreigners
    in Japan.
    $B309q8l$G$b%3%_%e%K%1!<%H$9$k0U;W$N$"$kF|K\?M$,!":_F|309q?M$H%3%_%e(J
    $B%K%1!<%H$G$-$k5!2q$rA}$d$9!#(J

Objections and Answers:
$BH?BP0U8+$H$=$l$KBP$9$kJVEz(J:

O1. Why not make use of soc.culture.japan?
    If your site do not receive it, why not now?
    $B$J$s$G(Jsoc.culture.japan$B$r;H$o$J$$$N(J?
    $B<u$1$H$C$F$$$J$$$N$J$i!":#$=$&$9$l$P(J?

A1-1. s.c.j is mostly used for discussion about Japan as seen
      from outside.  We need "from inside" viewpoint.
      s.c.j$B$O30$+$i8+$?F|K\$K4X$9$k5DO@$P$C$+$j$G$7$g$&!#(J
      $B$3$N%0%k!<%W$OCf$+$i!"$@$+$i0c$&$H;W$&!#(J

A1-2. s.c.j is already too crowded, and we might get complained if
      we talk about Japan-local issue there.
      s.c.j$B$O4{$K:.$_2a$.$F$$$k$7!"$3$3$KF|K\9qFb$G$O$I$&$N!"$H(J
      $B$$$&$N$r%]%9%H$7$@$9$HJ86g$r8@$o$l$k$H;W$&$,!#(J

A1-3. We want Jananese-intermixed articles.  s.c.j. is not
      appropriate because those who cannot read Kanji will
      complain, even if news sytem itself can handle it.
      $B2f!9$OF|K\8l$b:.$6$C$?$N$r$d$j$?$$$N$G!"(Js.c.j$B$O$@$a!#(J
      $B4A;z$,Mn$A$k$3$H$b$"$k$7!"Mn$A$J$/$F$b4A;z$,FI$a$J$$?M(J
      $B$+$i$NJ86g$@$i$1$K$J$k!#(J

O2. Most Japanese will not read English articles, so they will
    just unsubscribe.
    $BB?$/$NF|K\?M$O1Q8l$N5-;v$rFI$^$J$$$+$i!"(Junsub$B$9$k$@$1!#(J

A2-0.  We are not restricted to English.  Any language is
       welcome. 
       $BJL$K1Q8l$K8BDj$9$k$o$1$G$O$J$$!#2?8l$G$b4?7^!#(J

A2-1.  Sure, let them unsubscribe and be happy.  Don't bother
       us with what you are not interestead.
       $B$=$&!"(Junsub$B$7$?$i$$$$$s$8$c$J$$!#6=L#$,$J$$$s$@$C$?$i!"(J
       $B<YKb$b$7$J$$$G$[$7$$!#(J

A2-2.  I, a Japanese, am willing to subscribe.  There are many
       fj groups which only limited pepople subscribe.
       $B;d$OF|K\?M$@$1$I!"FI$_$?$$!#(Jfj$B$N%0%k!<%W$G$[$s$N>/$7$N(J
       $B?M$7$+FI$s$G$J$$$N$OBt;3$"$k$G$7$g$&!#(J

A2-3.  It is a good reason for creating a new group that some
       people are interestead in it.
       $B$$$/$i$+$G$b6=L#$"$k?M$,$$$?$i!"%0%k!<%W$r:n$kM}M3$H$7$F(J
       $B$O==J,$8$c$J$$$N(J?

A2-4.  Already so many people, including Japanese, has joined
       the discussion.
       $BB?$/$N(J($BF|K\?M$r4^$`(J)$B?M$,$3$N5DO@$K2C$o$C$F$/$l$?$s$@$+$i!"(J
       $B%0%k!<%W$,$G$-$?;~$bF|K\?M;22C<T$,$$$J$$$o$1$O$J$$!#(J

O3. Discussion result about new newsgroup in English cannot be
    regarded as a valid consensus.
    Japanese portion should be regarded as the basis for the
    discussion.
    $B1Q8l$G%K%e!<%9%0%k!<%W$K$D$$$F5DO@$7$F7kO@=P$7$F$bL58z$@!#(J
    $BF|K\8l$NItJ,$N$_$K$*$$$F5DO@$r9=@.$G$-$k$Y$-$@!#(J

A3-1.  Many fj readers do understand English.  Whether he
       actually read in English or not is his problem.
       fj$BFI$s$G$k?M$NB?$/$O1Q8l$,$o$+$k$G$7$g!#<B:]$KFI$`$+(J
       $B$H$P$9$+$O$=$N?M$NLdBj$G$7$g$&!#(J

A3-2.  It IS valid if sufficient materials are provided also
       in Japanese.
       $BF|K\8l$G$b$=$l$J$j$K>pJs$,Ds6!$5$l$l$P!"M-8z$@$H;W$&!#(J

A3-3.  In fact, there seems to be enough information in Japanese
       already.  You can ignore English portion all right.
       $BF|K\8l$GFI$a$kItJ,$@$1$K$D$$$F8+$F$b==J,>pJs$,$"$k$s$8$c(J
       $B$J$$(J? $B1Q8l$NItJ,$OFI$^$J$/$F$bBg>fIW$G$7$g$&!#(J

O4. Creating such a group do not necessarly support foreigners
    living in Japan.
    Support will be enhanced in that those who read English 
    can be found, but decrease in that it is not a specific
    group; so matter of trade-offs.
    $B$=$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$,$G$-$F$bK\Ev$KF|K\$K=;$`309q?M$,=u$+$k(J
    $B$b$s$@$m$&$+(J? $B1Q8l$rFI$`?M$O8+$D$+$C$F$b!":#EY$OFCDj%0%k!<%W(J
    $B$8$c$J$$$H$$$&ITMx$,$"$k$G$7$g$&!#(J

A4-1. Not at all?  At least those who willing to help can be
      found more easily in this newsgroup than before.
      $B=u$+$j$^$9!#>/$J$/$H$bA0$h$jMF0W$K=u$1$h$&$H$9$k?M$,(J
      $B8+$D$+$k$G$7$g$&(J?

A4-2. Those who is willing to help can relay to the specific group.
      $B=u$1$F$/$l$k?M$,FCDj%0%k!<%W$H66EO$7$7$F$/$l$k$+$b$h!#(J

O5. It could be the cause of Japan bashing to isolate
    foreingers int fj.*.gaikokujin.
    $B309q?M$r(Jfj.*.gaikokujin$B$K3VN%$7$?$iF|K\C!$-$N860x$K$J$k!#(J

A5-1. To prevent such a problem, increased international
      communication, a goal of this group, is necessary!
      $B$=$&$$$&LdBj$r$J$/$9$?$a$K!"$3$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$G%3%_%K%e%1!<(J
      $B%7%g%s$9$k$N$,=EMW$J$N$G$O!#(J

A5-2. Anyone cannot be enclosed to single group.
      $BC/$bFCDj$N%0%k!<%W$KJD$89~$a$k$3$H$J$s$F$G$-$J$$$N$G$O!#(J

A5-3. Only that the topic of the group is the foreigners
      in Japan, participants are not restricted.
      $B%0%k!<%W$NOCBj$,309q?M$J$@$1$G!";22C<T$O309q?M$K(J
      $B8B$i$l$F$$$k$o$1$8$c$J$$!#(J

O6. Use other (non-fj) group or mailing list.
    $BJL$N(J(fj$B$G$J$$(J)$B%0%k!<%W$+!"%a!<%j%s%0%j%9%H$r;H$($P(J?

A6-1. W.R.T. non-fj groups, see O1.  Mailing List?  That IS
      the isolation, isn't it?
      fj$B0J30$N%0%k!<%W$K$D$$$F$O(JO1$B$r8+$F$M!#(JML? $B$=$l$3$=3VN%(J
      $B$8$c$J$$!#(J

A6-2. ML and newsgroup is not the same thing; why mention ML?
      ML$B$H%K%e!<%9%0%k!<%W$OA4A3JL!#$J$s$G(JML$B$,=P$F$/$k$N(J?

A6-3. Current puropose of this group -- for various people from
      various contry -- will not be satisfied by a ML.
      $BL\E*!"$D$^$jB?$/$N9q$NB?$/$N?M!"$C$F$$$&$N$O(JML$B$K$O$J$8$^$J(J
      $B$$$H;W$&!#(J

O7. Translation may conduct critical errors, so existence of
    a group based on translation is problematic.
    Translation by itself is against copyright law.
    $BK]Lu$O4V0c$C$F$$$k$3$H$b$"$k$+$i!"K]Lu$KMj$C$?%0%k!<%W$O(J
    $BLdBj$G$O!#K]Lu$=$N$b$N$,Cx:n8"K!$KH?$7$F$$$k!#(J

A7-1. Translation is not crucical in forming this gropup,
      although it will be valuable for some people.
      $BK]Lu$,%0%k!<%W$NB8:_$KIT2D7g$C$F$$$&$o$1$8$c$J$$!#(J
      $BK]Lu$,$"$k$HM-Fq$$$H8@$&?M$,$$$k$H$$$&$@$1$G!#(J

A7-2. Not illegal if author specifically permits.
      $BCx<T$,G'$a$l$PH?$7$F$J$$$o$1$@!#(J

A7-3. Quotes necessary for the purpose of discussion are
      valid, and shall be same for translation of such quotes.
      $B5DO@$NL\E*$K>H$i$7$FI,MW$J0zMQ$OEvA35v$5$l$F$$$k$7!"$=$l(J
      $B$rK]Lu$9$k$N$bF1$8$3$H$G$O!#(J

O8. Proposed charters seems no special or specific; so I wonder
    why new newsgropu should exsist at all.  Simple English guidance
    suggesting which group to use for what may suffice.
    $B7{>O$+$i8+$k$HJL$K?7$7$$%0%k!<%W$,$$$k$[$IFC<l$JOCBj$H$b;W$((J
    $B$J$$!#C1$K!V$I$s$JOCBj$J$i$I$N%0%k!<%W!W$H$$$&1Q8l$N<j0z$,$"(J
    $B$l$P$$$$$s$8$c$J$$!#(J

A8-1. Please look at proposed goals G1-G3.  The proposed grop
      will greatly increase the non-Japanese poster's chances
      to communicate with other non-Japanese or Japanes willing
      to communicate with him.
      $BDs0F$5$l$F$$$kL\E*0F$b8+$F$/$@$5$$!#$3$N%0%k!<%W$,$"$C$?(J
      $BJ}$,!"F|K\?M$G$J$$Ej9F<T$,$&$^$/B>$NF|K\?M$G$J$$Ej9F<T$d(J
      $BH`$H$d$j$H$j$7$F$b$$$$$H;W$&F|K\?M$H%3%_%K%e%1!<%7%g%s$r;}(J
      $B$F$k5!2q$,A}$9$G$7$g$&(J?

A8-2. And Japanese who would like to communicate with
      non-Japanese will also feel this group valuable.  Consider
      posting like "How do you non-Japanese feel about these
      topics?"
      $B$=$l$H!"F|K\?M$G$J$$?M$H$d$j$H$j$7$?$$F|K\?M$K$H$C$F$b$3$&(J
      $B$$$&%0%k!<%W$,$"$k$HM-Fq$$$G$7$g$&!#Nc$($P!VF|K\?M$G$J$$$"(J
      $B$J$?$,$?$O$3$NLdBj$r$I$&;W$$$^$9$+(J?$B!W$J$s$F2DG=$G$7$g(J?

O9. There really are no parmanent needs for such a group.  The
    fact that post related to the "gaikokujin" group has calmed
    down indicates as such.
    You can always use fj.misc to post "gaikokujin" topics, so
    traffic can be estimated with respect to that gorup, and
    the traffic is quite low.
    $B<B$N=j$=$&$$$&%0%k!<%W$N<{MW$O$J$$!#<B:]!"$3$N%0%k!<%W4XO"(J
    $B$N%]%9%H$,$b$&$J$/$J$C$F$7$^$C$?$8$c$J$$!#(J
    fj.misc$B$K%]%9%H$5$l$?309q?M4XO"5-;v$G%H%i%U%#%C%/$rB,$k$N$,(J
    $B@5$7$$!#$=$7$F$=$l$O$R$I$/>/$J$$!#(J

A9-1. Topics related to effectiveness of English articles and
      needs for gaikokujin group can be regarded as gaikokujin-
      rerated traffic.
      $B!V1Q8l$N5DO@$NM-8z@-!W$H$+!V309q?M%0%k!<%W$NI,MW@-!W$N5-;v(J
      $B$@$C$F309q?M4XO"$8$c$J$$$N(J?

A9-2. Even if you disagree with above, many of potential posters
      might be busy on above topics, thus "ordinary" gaikokujin-
      traffic was exceptionally low.
      $B$?$H$($=$&$8$c$J$$$K$7$F$b!"309q?M%0%k!<%W$N%f!<%6$,>e$N(J
      $B%F!<%^$KK;$7$+$C$?$N$GIaDL$N%H%i%U%#%C%/$,0[>o$K>/$J$+$C$?(J
      $B$s$G$O$J$$$G$9$+(J?

A9-3. Many gaikokujin-people feel unconfortable to post in fj.misc,
      even if you say its "wrong."  Barrier of fj.misc is rather
      high for English-only people, compared to us Japanese
      (remember, even we Japanese feel fj.misc barrier!), so
      let's be kind to them.
      $BB?$/$N309q?M$O(Jfj.misc$B$K=P$9$N$K$ODq93$r46$8$k$H;W$&!#$=$l(J
      $B$O4V0c$C$F$$$k!"$H8@$o$l$l$P$=$l$^$G$@$1$I!"1Q8l$N$_$N?M(J
      $B$K$H$C$F$O(Jfj.misc$B$NJI$O$R$I$/8|$$$O$:!#(J($BF|K\?M$@$C$F!"7k9=(J
      fj.misc$B$G;O$a$k$N$O$S$S$k$8$c$J$$(J!) $B$@$+$i$b$&>/$79MN8$7$F(J
      $B$"$2$?$C$F$$$$$s$8$c$J$$(J?

A9-4. If we gaikokujin post (perhaps Englis) articles to fj.misc,
      who will read them?  Many Japanese posters are saying they
      will not read English articles, and many English-reading
      people will not read fj.misc at all.  So, fj.misc is much
      inferior to fj.gaikokujin or such.  We cannot simply estimate
      real traffic in fj.misc.
      $B$b$72f!9309q?M$,(J($B$?$V$s1Q8l$G(J)fj.misc$B$K%]%9%H$7$?$H$7$F!"(J
      $BC/$,FI$s$G$/$l$k$N(J? $BB?$/$NF|K\?M%]%9%?$O!V1Q8l$J$s$FFI$^$J(J
      $B$$!W$HL@8@$7$F$i$C$7$c$k$7!"1Q8l$rFI$`?M$G(Jfj.misc$B$rFI$`?M(J
      $B$O>/$J$$$H;W$&!#$@$+$i(Jfj.misc$B$O(Jfj.gaikokujin($B2>>N(J)$B$h$j$:$C(J
      $B$H$:$C$H0-$$$o$1$@!#(Jfj.misc$B$N%H%i%U%#%C%/$GH=CG$9$k$J$s$F(J
      $B8@$o$J$$$GM_$7$$!#(J

A9-5. Only that it's summar vacation.
      $B$J$K!"2F5Y$_$@$+$i$G$9$h!<!#(J

# So, if you are going to post articles about this issue, please
# state explicitly your permission to translate the articles.
# $B$H$$$&$o$1$G!"$3$NOCBj$K$D$$$FEj9F$5$l$kJ}$O5-;v$NCf$KK]Lu5v2D(J
# $B$NI=L@$r4^$a$FD:$1$k4n$P$7$$$H;W$$$^$9!#(J

# I have summrized this from many people's articles, which I cannot
# afford to mention one by one.  I appreciate all people contributed
# to this discussion.
# $B$3$N%5%^%j!<$OB?$/$NJ}$N5-;v$r85$K$7$F$$$^$9$,!"855-;v$NNL$,KDBg(J
# $B$J$?$a0l!9;2>H$r<($9$3$H$O$G$-$^$;$s$G$7$?!#5DO@$K;22C$7$F2<$5$C(J
# $B$?A4$F$NJ}$K46<U$$$?$7$^$9!#(J

---------------------------------------------------------------