From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Subject: Re: "Concept Theft:" B5 v DS9 and Roddenberry (Re: BABYLON 5 vs ST:DSN)
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:37:23 GMT

In <BxuGAr.3q0@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>From ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY:
>>1. BABYLON 5 is a humongous space station posed near a hyperspace "jump point"
>>providing a shortcut to far-off worlds. ST:DSN is a humongous space station 
>>poised near a "wormhole" providing a shortcut to far-off worlds.

>     I didn't know this.  I thought B5 was just placed at the hub of
>     five empires, one of which includes Earth...  But.

But, that doesn't preclude the "jump point" concept.

>>2. B5 is a watering hole for assorted smugglers, thieves, hookers, and rogues,
>>the set of which features a bar, a casino and a bazaar. ST:DSN is a watering
>>hole for assorted smugglers, thieves, hookers, and rogues, the set of which 
>>features a bar, a casino and a promenade.

>     It's true that both J Michael Starynski - not "Joe" - 

"Joe" appears to be the name he goes by (on GEnie, at the very least).  What
do you imagine the "J" might stand for?

And it's spelled "Straczynski".

>								and
>     Michael Piller have used the "Casablanca" allusion to describe
>     their respective shows...

>>4. B5 is run by Commander Sinclair, who is haunted by his experiences in a
>>recent war. ST:DSN is run by Commander Sisko, who is haunted by his experiences
>>fighting the Borg.

>     ...but this does not, I think, prove that DS9 was in any way
>     a stolen concept.  The why is illustrated clearly in the above
>     #4.  Whereas BABYLON 5 takes place in an entirely new millieu,
>     DS9's various elements have been extant - some of them - for
>     25 years.  

But the Borg haven't been around for 25 years!  Nor have the Bajorans,
wormholes, or the Cardassians, or O'Brian, Keiko or Ro (though apparently
Ro will not be in the new series after all).

>     Consider Sinclair v Sisko.  Sinclair was fighting in this war
>     with these weird aliens... and he was about to crash into the
>     alien motherlode when he blanked.  He woke up four days later,
>     his ship light years away, with the war - which was about to
>     be lost by the "Earth Empire" - settled victoriously... Why?
>     We don't know.  This mystery will be rather central to the
>     BABYLON 5 series, as Starynski has said repeatedly.
>     Commander Sisko, on the other hand, lost his wife in the
>     Battle of Wolf 359, and his life has gone into the toilet
>     bowl because of it.
>     All in all, I think comparing these two to prove culpability
>     against Paramount in the creation of DS9 is ridiculous.

Culpability?  I doubt that anyone will be able to prove any culpability.
However, there *is* an awful lot of suspicion out there.  And I personally
*do* think that the two series sound awfully similar.  I certainly don't
think that we have nearly enough evidence to *discredit* the suspicions,
though we just as surely don't have enough to *prove* them.  (But, since
this isn't a court of law, we don't need to do either.)

>     Also consider: the Cardassians have been around for three years
>     now.  Despite their seeming similarity to the main alien guys
>     in BABYLON 5 (the one played by Andreas Katsulas), the Cardassians
>     have been around _longer_.

Straczynski says that he's been working on B5 for "five years", and apparently
the series was indeed pitched to Paramount at one point.

>				  The Bajorans grew out of the Kurd
>     massacre, of course, and there is no B5 analog here.

But then, there's no phrase "Star Trek" in "Babylon 5", either.  That doesn't
mean that it wasn't grafted onto the project later.

>     In other words, similarities don't prove fraud on anyone's
>     part.  However, remaining neutral, I must admit, it doesn't
>     prove NO fraud either.  (My personal belief is in the rule
>     of "independant creation."  Neither stole from the other).

I'm not sure, but don't have enough information to decide at this point.
I plan to wait to see several episodes of both series before coming to
any conclusions.  (On the other hand, if both series are enjoyable, then I
probaly won't care much if one stole from the other.  But I do enjoy
gossip.)

-- 
Michael Rawdon				 rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department, Madison, WI

"...I trusted [Ganelon] like a brother.  That is to say, not at all."
				- Roger Zelazny, _The_Guns_Of_Avalon_
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