From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Hunter's legitimate concern
Date: 29 Jul 1992 14:53:06 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <Bs4JGo.MM0@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> I agree with you that everyone should listen to facts and reason.
 
>rl> Unfortunately, many people choose to ignore empirical and rational
>rl> arguments whenever and whereever those arguments conflict with their
>rl> own peculiar beliefs.
  
>rl> I have a question for you, Mr Linan: Are you willing to listen to 
>rl> facts and reason?  Or, do you still contend that beliefs and 
>rl> truths are one and the same?  eg, "I believe it, therefore it 
>rl> must be true".  

>Mike Linan writes:
>ml> I think most people feel their beliefs are the truth and have no reason
>ml> to believe otherwise unless evidence is produce to prove their beliefs
>ml> wrong.  Often times it is not that black and white though.

>Russell Lawrence replies:
>rl> Perhaps.  Let's suppose that you were confronted by a woman who 
>rl> told you that she was a messenger of the Goddess Diana and that 
>rl> Diana had instructed her to tell you that your hunting practices 
>rl> are offensive, not only to Diana herself, but to the rest of the Olympian 
>rl> Gods as well.  In view of the fact that you'd be hardpressed to 
>rl> disprove such claims, would you consider them to be examples of 
>rl> "facts and reason"?  

>From article <15415hINN6d9@agate.berkeley.edu>, by linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan):
>ml> Am I supposed to know or care who this Goddess Diana is?  I 
>ml> follow my own beliefs and I consider them every bit as important 
>ml> and valid as yours or anybody else's.  

>I realize that you blindly follow your beliefs, just as someone 
>who worships the Goddess Diana might insist on blindly following 
>their beliefs.  What I'm asking you to explain is this: How does 


Yes Russell I suppose you could say I "blindly" follow my beliefs in 
my God but, let just say that I consider that a whole lot better than 
what you do judging from the pathetic examples you give.  I find it very
sad when people like you must have hard "empirical" facts in front of 
them before they will believe anything.  


>your willingness to blindly believe what you want to believe fit 
>in with your tendency to accuse your opponents of failing to 
>listen to "facts and reason"?  Are you really thinking factually and 
>reasonably when you tell us that your practices are good simply 
>because one of the "gods" has told you so?  


From my view, yes.  You may retain the option to remain ignorant.


>rl> To the extent that we confuse mere beliefs with facts and reason,
>rl> are we not allowing ourselves to be mislead by all sorts of lies
>rl> and insanities?

>ml> What "facts and reason" and what "lies and insanities" are you 
>ml> speaking of Russell?  Exactly how do you view us being mislead in 
>ml> the context of this discussion?  

>You've stated previously that your (mis)treatment of animals is 
>ultimately justifiable by virtue of the permission of a god or 
>group of gods.  Although you've presented no evidence whatsoever 
>to verify that this god or group of gods truly exists, and that 
>he/she supports your behavior, you expect your opponents to 
>accept your claims at face value pending their ability to provide 
>contrary proof.  Using this same standard of "reasoning" [we're 

See here is where you are wrong (once again) Russell.  For all your 
self proclaimed intelligence, you still cannot understand that I do not
*need* or *expect* you to accept anything I say or do.  I could not pos-
sibly care less whether you agree with me or not.  Is that now clear enough
for you?

>using the term "reason" loosely here], would it not be 
>appropriate for you to suspend your current practices until 
>you're in a position to disprove the claim that Goddess Diana 
>thoroughly disapproves of your behavior?


No, I feel that I will continue debating with open minded people who have
a desire to educate themselves on our side of the issue.  I will continue
to throw the arrogant, dishonest arguments of persons such as yourself 
back in your face.  Does that suit you?  I care!


>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000


Mike Linan