From: 3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re:REPLY TO GHUZLAAN Death of Jesus (peace be on him)
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:45:29 EST

In article <nabeel.703272640@bellatrix.sce.carleton.ca>, nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan) writes:
> umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor) writes:
> 
>>Asslam-o-Alaikum,
> 
>    Sure, thanks.
> 
>>[A]. Non Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus ascended to God and is still alive 
>>there. Christians believe Jesus to be God and also say he is still alive. The
>>Quran however says that persons worshipped as Gods besides Allah are "dead 
>>not living, and they know not when they shall be raised (16:21)."  
>>Hence non-Ahmadis end up supporting the Christian view of the Divine Jesus 
>>and they do not even know it.
>> 
>    Since this was revealed in Mecca, it most probably refers to idols. How
> about if some people worship there imperor, is he dead?


HOW DID YOU CONCLUDE THAT?  WORSHIPING OF EMPERORS IS NOT PERMITTED IN ANY TRUE
RELEGION AND THEY CAN NOT BE REGARDED AS DEAD ANYWAY. WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO
SAY?
 
 
>>[B]. The Quran states:  "O Jesus I will cause thee to die and exalt thee to 
>>myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve.."(3:55)
>> 
>    The word "mutawaffeeka" does not necessarily mean cause_you_to_die. It
> originally means taking_you, but later was used often to mean death. Even,
> it he died, why is it impossible that he descend as promised by Muhammad
> (PBUH) in many Sahih Hadiths?

SO NOW YOU ARE AGAIN FABRICATING MEANING OF DEATH TO LIVE  IN YOUR DICTIONARY.
DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC? YOU CALIM TO BE ARAB BUT LOOKS LIKE VERY
IGNORANT FROM ARABIC.

 
>>[C]. On the Day of Judgement God will say to Jesus:  "Didst thou say to men,
>>take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?  He will answer, Holy art 
>>thou, I could never say that to which I had no right.  If I had said it, 
>>Thou wouldst have surely known it...And I was a witness over them as long as 
>>I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been 
>>the Watcher over them (5:116-117).
> 
>    The same argument holds about "tawaffaitani".
>  
>>The verse proves: 
>>     1). Corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of 
>>         Jesus.  
>>     2). If Jesus were still alive (as most non Ahmadis believe), 
>>         Christianity would still exist in its pure form.
> 
>    That is if he was still alive amongst them.


HERE YOU ARE REFUTING YOUR OWN ARGUMENT. IF HE WAS NOT SITLL ALIVE THAN HE MUST
HAVE DIED AND THAT'S WHAT AHMADIES BELEIVE THAT JESUS DIED A NATURAL DEATH
AFTER LIVING 120 YEARS.
 
>>     3). The verse also proves that the same Jesus will not appear a second
>>         time in this world, as he would then become aware of the mentioned 
>>         corruption and could not, therefore, plead ignorance in front of 
>>         God's judgement seat.
>>
> 
>    He did not plead ignorance, but he said, he witnessed them as long as he
> was with them, otherwise, God was there to watch. Even when descending the
> second time and knowing about the corruption, he still do not bear
> responsibility for it and did not witness its start.

WELL DONE! YOU SHOULD BE APPOINTED PROFESSOR OF ARABIC AT CARLETON. LOOK WAHT
YOU ARE SAYING? YOU ARE JUST DENING YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS AND DENING THE VERSES OF
THE HOLLY QURAN JUST TO HOLD YOUR FALSE BELEIVES. COME ON DON'T DENY  FACTS.
   
>>[D]. One one occasion, the enemies of the Holy Prophet challenged him that
>>they will not believe in him unless he "ascend up into heaven" and "send 
>>down to us a Book (17:93)."  The Prophet replied:  "Holy is my Lord! I am 
>>but a mortal sent as a messenger (17:93)."  The Prophets of Allah, like all 
>>other human beings, live and die on earth.  If you believe Jesus is still
>>alive beyond the stratosphere, he must be more than a mortal.
> 
>    How did you arrive to this? We do not say he won't die for ever or he will
> stay there for ever.
> 
>>Incidentally,
>>Ahmadi Muslims believe the Miraj was a spiritual phenomenon, not a 
>>physical one.
>>
>    I.e. Ahmadis are Infidels! Interesting. Why would Meccas polytheists
> deny the possibility of Isra' and Miraj if it was a spiritual experience?
> Did not he describe the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem to them? Did not he see
> the camel comboy? Thanks for showing that you are nonbelievers, you saved
> us a lot.

DO YOU HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF "KASHAF"? I VERY MUCH DOUBT THAT'S WHY YOU
HAVE SO MUCH PROBLEM IN UNDERSTANDING THE POINT WHICH NASIR HAS RAISED HERE.
 
>>[E]. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: 
>>     1)  "If Moses and Jesus were alive, they would have been obliged to
>>         follow me (Kathir and al-Yawaqit wal Jawahir vol. 2, page 245).
> 
>    I.e. if catched him on Earth if that Hadith is not fabricated anyway, since
> you did not quote a Sahih reference.

WHAT'S  THIS NONSENSE SAHIH HADITH BUSINESS IS ANYWAY? ANY HADITH WHICH YOU
HAVE NOT HEARD BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE OR BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST YOUR
BELEIVES IS CORRUPTED OR FABRICATED? THINK WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BEFORE MAKING
ANY JUGEMENT. DON'T BE CLOSED MINDED MULLAH. 
  
>>     2)  "Verily, Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years 
>>                (Kanz-ul-Ummal, Part 6 page 120)."
> 
>    If this is not fabricated then it is highly corrupted, what reference is
> Kanz-ul-Ummal? You know we do not believe everything just because it is
> written somewhere.


AGAIN IF YOU ARE IGNORANT ABOUT A HADITH THAN IT IS FABRICATED WHAT IS THIS
NONSENSE? DON'T FOOL AROUND YOUR SELF. DENIAL OF TRUTH WILL NOT LEAD YOU
ANWHERE.

>>     3)  In Bukhari, it is reported that in the Miraj, the Prophet saw
>>         Yahya and Jesus in the second heaven.  If Yahya is dead, then Jesus
>>         is dead, for the dead do not keep company with the living.
> 
>    How interesting! You are subjecting God's business to your logic. Can you
> prove that? Especially that you know that death is just a transfer from
> temporal life to eternal life through the grave bridge with a lot of fire
> or heaven. Weren't martyrs declared to be alive beside God? Why can't prophets
> be so? [I am not saying that they are or not, but showing you a logical
> possibility, just to shake you up a bit.]

GOOD YOU BROUGHT THIS POINT HERE. MARTYR'S ARE LIVING TRUE, CAN THEY COME BACK
ON THIS EARTH AFTER BEING MARTRED? DO YOU HAVE ANY EXAMPLE WHEN A MARTYRED CAME
BACK ON THIS EARTH ALIVE? I GUESS YOU GOT MY POINT NOW THAT JESUS IS ALIVE IN
THE SAME SENSE AS THE MARTYRS ARE ALIVE AND INDEED EVERY PROPHET IS ALIVE IN
THAT SENSE. BUT NO ONE WILL COME BACK ALIVE ON THIS EARTH AGAIN. 

M.H.A.MUNAWAR
 
>>Regards,
>>Nasir Ahmed Noor
>>umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca
> 
> **Nabeel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan