From: harry@netnews.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz)
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Organization: DEC - Customer Support Center, Alpharetta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:18:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.225613.18692@bony1.bony.com>,
jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

	Christians in Egypt today are suffering very much the same kind of
	discrimination and terror that was used to drive the Jews from Arab
	states and take their property.  The use of small arms among Islamic
	groups to re-define property ownership is well-known to Jews who
	survived similar attacks and fled to Israel. 
	
In article <Bu0opC.FAM@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Randall Desmond (acsormd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu) responds:

	Could a Jew, who this is well known to, tell me about these
	"Islamic" groups that "re-define property ownership" and give 
	references (independent source please)?


Why a Jew?  The facts concerning the expulsion of Jews from Arab states,
and the expropriation of their property, are well documented.  Mr. Desmond
ought to consult a library.


Mr. Livni then quotes an article from the New York Times:

	Coptic Christians, who number 7 million to 8 million people of Egypt's
	56 million people and belong to one of the oldest denominations in
	Christendom, have become the victims of an increasingly violent
	campaign waged by Islamic militants who want to create a state ruled
	according to strict interpretations of Islamic law.

Mr. Desmond responds:

	Is this a run-on sentance?


No, it is not.  Moreover, someone who cannot spell the word "sentence"
correctly has no business questioning anyone else's grammar.

	
	In any case, if these militant actions are occurring...

Note the use of the word "if."  Since Mr. Desmond doubts the veracity
of the New York Times, what did he mean when he wrote above that he
wanted "references" from "independent sources."


	...it sure ain't in the realm of Islamic law.

Someone really ought to explain that to the militants.


	Sounds like the author created a oxymoron and some propagation.

In other words, since the militants do not share Mr. Desmond's interpretation
of Islam, the reporters must be fabricating the entire story!


The Times article continues:

	The sectarian violence, which is creeping into Christian neighborhoods
	in Cairo, eerily resembles the successful drive by Muslim leaders to
	drive Jews from the Arab world three and four decades ago.


Here is one independent reference for Mr. Desmond right in the very article he
is criticizing!  Here is what he has to say about it:

	A Christian Arab, teaching my Arabic class, said that they
	are building a big place where, under the same roof, Chrisitians,
	Jews, and Muslims can pray. Oh yeah, he said this was in Cairo.

Who are "they?"  Are they Christian Arabs?  Militant Moslems?  The Egyptian
government?  If such a place is really under construction, what does it prove?


The Times article continues:

	Egyptian officials also contend that some 2,500 fundamentalists have
	recently infiltrated southern Egypt from the Sudan.

Mr. Desmond's analysis:

	"Fundamentalist" is a term used quite awkwardly. Sudan is the 
	poorest "Islamic" country. Maybe they need food.

Is that why they are attacking the Christians?


The Times article continues:

	"If the government had acted earlier then we would not be facing the
	crisis we have today," said a Christian member of Parliament, who
	asked to remain unidentified. 

Mr. Desmond's incisive insight:

	Why unidentified? He's probably on the black list anyway, right?

He is certainly on Mr. Desmond's "black list."


The Times article continues:

	The grinding poverty and lack of basic services mean that most people
	are unable to school their children or find adequate health care.

Here Mr. Desmond misses the point entirely:

	Are you trying to link this fact to militant people?
	Come one. Egypt is a desert, except near the Nile. They 
	aren't exactly rich ya know.

"They aren't exactly rich..."  That is exactly what the Times meant by the 
phrase "grinding poverty."  And, yes, poverty does have a tendency to drive
people of all persuasions to desperate measures, including violence.


The Times article continues:

	The lack of gevernment involvement has left a vacuum the
	fundamentalists, most allied with an organization know as the Islamic
	Group, have rushed to fill.  Bearded militants dole out small
	quantities of food and money to poor Muslims.

Mr. Desmond's retort:

	"bearded militants" Ha, ha, ha.... This article is a joke!

Everyone knows that Moslems do not wear beards, especially not the militants!


The Times article continues:

	Younis Zaki Ashamalla, 35, a farmer, slowly picked through his gutted
	home at the edge of the village.  A dozen fundamentalists broke into
	his house last month when he was in the fields.  They beat his wife
	with  sticks and poured gasoline over the furnishings before setting
	the house ablaze.

Mr. Desmond's logic:

	If this is true, they aren't "fundamentalist". A Muslim
	is taught to respect property rights, and the views of others.
	If this guy knew anything about Islam he should know that
	a militant Arab is not a "fundamentalist". 

Note that Mr. Desmond does not express any sympathy for the poor Christian
victim of this shameful attack.  No, for him the greatest crime is the
labeling of the attackers as "fundamentalist!"  It must be very comforting
to Egyptian Christians to know that their oppressors are not fundamentalists!


The Times article continues:

	"They screamed that there is no God but God, and that the Jews and
	Christians were infidels," his wife said.  "Before they left, they
	slashed me with a knife.  We lost everything, even our chickens.  Now
	we are living with a neighbor while we try to get money to leave."

Mr. Desmond's comment:

	There is a concept in Islam called "fear of Allah". Muslims
	can not do what you said and claim they are acting according 
	to Islam.

Perhaps they are ignorant.


	Do you really think anyone would want to embrace such 
	a faith as you describe? I wouldn't. Yet, I'm a Muslim. In fact
	I became one last year.

Well, bully for Mr. Desmond!  But the militants that the Times described
are not recent American converts to Islam.  They are Egyptians who were
born into the religion.  There is reason to doubt that they share the same
values as Mr. Desmond, even if they happen to share nominally the same religion.


	This guy is wrong to the core.

If you don't believe it, just ask Mr. Desmond!


Mr. Desmond concludes:

	Jake ...I got your name... I'm watching... I'm a fundy... ;)

Such a well-developed sense of humor!


	Are you so scared of other cultures, races and religions that
	you have to create strife below to stay on top?

Apparently, Mr. Desmond has lost the thread of the article.  It is the
militants in Egypt who are creating the strife, not Mr. Livni.


	I realize this follow-up was a waste of time, if anyone is honest
	about the content of the original post I'm sure they will agree
	with me.

It is not so difficult to agree with Mr. Desmond that his follow up is a
waste of time, as it consists entirely of his personal prejudices and
lacks entirely any facts or references.


	I hate your post, Jake.  Maybe I'll highjack the next plane your
	on...;)

Don't wait for any of the references you requested!


	COME ON! DO SOME REAL RESEARCH, AND QUICK GIVING GOOD
	PEOPLE BAD RAPS!!

Mr. Desmond ought to go and direct his homilies at his militant
co-religionists who are in peril of losing their souls through their
misguided belief that Islam condones violence against non-believers.


	Peace to all who believe in the Day of Judgement,

	Ismail
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast