From: frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de ()
Subject: Re: Abortion vs. Adoption
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 11:01:58 GMT

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:
: > : >I'm saying that the knowledge of the child *you* might have
: > : >raised, or might have had adopted, for that matter,  is with
: > : >you for the rest of your life.
: > :
: > : So is the knowledge of the children you might have raised that you
: > : decided never to conceive.
: >
: > Not really, Adrienne.
: 
: Why not?
: 
: Why is one statement any more valid than the other?

Taken literally, both statements are valid.  It takes a peculiar 
and potent cocktail of drugs to *completely* forget about either 
one of these things :-)

My point was that the two cases are not equivalent - and the 
difference is a simple human difference. 

At the very least there is the difference between saying "I will 
not go to Paris again", and turning back at the airport.  There
also exist the differences I tried to outline previously.

: > Plenty of people are willing to tell you that about abortion,
: 
: Plenty of people are willing to tell me that about a lot of things
: which are not immoral in my opinion.  They're entitled to their opinion,
: and I'm entitled to mine.  I certainly don't feel guilty doing these
: things because of *their* opinions.

It's not reasonable or right that you or anyone should, but I'm certain 
that a number of women do.  Come visit Ireland.

: > In the face of all this, only  an automaton would not have at least
: > a nagging doubt about having an abortion.
: 
: Or someone who looked at the facts and made their own decision, with
: which they're happy.

...and protect us from people who know they are right, Amen.

Aren't *you* ever wrong?  Do *you* ever wonder about your career 
decisions? Why should other people's moral decisions be any different?

: A number of women have reported that they have no regrets about
: their abortion.  Does this mean that the argument falls, or are
: you questioning their honesty?

For me, the "abortion is murder" argument falls if one women 
who has experienced it can honestly say their conscience is fine.

And no, I'm not questioning any individual's honesty.  However, 
when feelings are deep and constant people can be barely aware of 
them.  That is, it's there so constantly it seems normal. Like 
thinking the world is fuzzy when in fact you need glasses.

Also, consider this:  We used to play a game called "truth".  The
game had to be played with people who knew and trusted each other 
very, very well.  The rules were: You had to answer yes/no questions
truthfully.  If you hesitated, you had to leave the game.  It's
a very dangerous game which can lose you friends.  I knew a girl 
who said "I wouldn't even play that by myself".

: > But any woman I have spoken to says the same thing: "no woman
: > chooses abortion lightly".  I believe that.  I also believe
: > that something that significant alters ones life.
: 
: Nobody chooses heart surgery lightly, either.  Do you believe that
: they must therefore be suffering nagging doubt the rest of their life?
: What if they had someone telling them that surgery was immoral and
: that they should have let themself die if that was god's will?

I don't think *many* (any?) people are saying that women should let 
themselves die rather than have an abortion, as seems to be implied
above.  I'd say that was an extreme view, with little bearing on the 
point in question.   I'd say that you don't hold that view, and
nor do I.  So why have you brought it up?

: > I also wonder, what if it (abortion) *is* wrong?   You
: > know, suppose the z/e/f turned out to be a person all
: > along.   Suppose (whisper it) YOU GOT IT WRONG!  AGAIN!
: 
: (AGAIN ???)

Oh, I see, you really are never wrong.

: > If you believe in a conscience, and I believe your personal
: > experience will demonstrate this, then if abortion is indeed
: > (morally) wrong, then women who choose it will know it
: 
: And if it's not, they won't.

I believe the sentence of mine which you deleted said that! (Really
you mean "if it's not wrong they'll know that too").  But hey!, we 
agree on something...

: > : There have been studies performed on these issues, you know.  Do you know
: > : what the bulk of these studies have found?
: >
: > I'm not really sure we're talking about the same issues, Adrienne.
: > But you're quite correct.  I am completely ignorant of any and
: > all studies concerning abortion, and would welcome a reference
: > to some of them.
: 
: Posted yesterday.

Haven't seen these yet - thank you very much, whoever posted them.

: > it's just that as I personally
: > believe there are barely words to describe this,
: 
: That's because you personally believe that it's immoral.

Do I?  Oh. 

: > I don't see how
: > it can be reduced to bar graphs, pie charts, and numbers.
: 
: It reduces to a yes/no or multiple choice question, actually.

Thankfully, you didn't say it was a *simple* yes/no/m.c. question:-)

: > By the way, the original poster did not justify her "over and
: > done with" claim with any perceptible knowledge base or learned
: > studies.  Yet you did not deem it necessary to point that out.
: 
: Her claim was that it's *never* over and done with, and that can be
: shown wrong with a single counter-example.  A number of women have
: posted counter-examples.

Well, hang on a cotton pickin' minute.  I'm following up someone 
named "e bartley", who said something like "an abortion is over and 
done with, whereas adoption...".  So that sounds more like *always* 
than *never*, though she didn't say that explicitly.

You must have one of these heat-seeking threaded newreaders :-)

But yes, I'm also saying that it's never over and done with.  
Holding oneself up as a counter example shows nothing, as if you're 
still talking about it, it ain't over.  And I don't see how you 
could hold anyone *else* up as an example (as if you're still being
harassed by researchers, you really have a problem:-).

: Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
--
Frank O'Dwyer		       			Disclaimer: 
Siemens-Nixdorf AG 	                        I will deny everything
Tel.  : +49 (89) 636-40639                      Fax.  : +49 (89) 636-45860
e-mail: Frank.ODwyer@sniap.mchp.sni.de <--Use this, reply-to is broken
Newsgroups: talk.abortion