HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smile1@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (gray,david l)
Subject: Re: College is not a "right".
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 21:29:29 GMT

>	I guess my biggest question is if big brother loses interest
>	when only one principle party exists, and if it is really
>	the kid suing, or the CP parent.
>
>-- 
>	Alan Yasutovich
>	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
>	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
>	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......

Alan

What you might have missed is that a child can legally go after his parents
for college money even if the two of them are still happly married.  I
believe California is also doing this and some actual cases have been done.

Smile,

Dave
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:39:23 GMT

<1993Jan8.070242.6474@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:

>Ohio's support seems quite reasonable to me.  It's based on both parents'
>income, does not exceed 20% of the total of both.  So if each is 50% of
>the entire total, each only contribute 10%.

Now I see why you considered 1/3 of a million dollars ridiculously high.
It's because it was more than 20% of a million dollars.

(By the way, the premise "if each is 50%" seems to presume that men 
and women have equal opportunity to elect the "I'll stay at home" route.)

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
Subject: Re: Enough on the itemizing
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:08:55 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

mba@controls.ccd.harris.com (Belinda Asbell) writes:

> 
> Child support seems a lot like taxes in some ways.  We don't get any say on h
> our taxes are spent, either.  Otherwise congressmen wouldn't be able to vote
> themselves a pay raise every time they meet....

Are you saying that a parent should just wave goodbye to the money?

I'm not for accounting. I'm not because it would be a ludicrous waste of
time given the current system. Instead of accounting, I'm for discarding
the income shares concept of support (which holds people up to standards
which were artificially generated and more often than not, have no real
bearing on the circumstances of the dividing family). If the system was
using a custom-fit assessment for support, no accounting would be needed,
because the support was tailored to need, not imagination.

I'm not for accounting, because my state already has a requirement that
the CP has to furnish to the NCP, on _reasonable_ demand, a general look
at where the money went.

The courts routinely accept things like this:

Support: 4000

Housing and related: 3000
Food: 1000
Total: 4000

Now, there's accounting for you. (-:

---
Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: mba@controls.ccd.harris.com (Belinda Asbell)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Originator: mba@sp1
Organization: Harris Controls
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:38:01 GMT


In article <1993Jan6.122354.6441@desire.wright.edu>, sbishop@desire.wright.edu
writes:
|> 
|> I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
|> for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
|> father shut up.  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
|> transportation?  I routinely put about 100+ miles a week during the
|> summer, just taking Mike to and fro to softball practice and games.  
|> 
|> Do I just average in his share of the food or put down cost per meal?  
|> 
|> As for laundry, do I charge by the item or by the load?  How about wear
|> and tear on the house?  
|> 
|> As you can see, this can get silly very quickly.
|> 
|> Sue

True, if taken strictly literally, it could get very silly.  

However, if one takes proportions of various things (such as rent, utility bills,
food bills, etc...), then it makes a little more sense (at least to me, it
would).  

If a parent and one child live in a house, it would make sense for the 'cost of
keeping roof over kid's head' to be half of what rent or mortgage payment or
whatever.  Same with utility bills and food bills (although food bills may need
to be adjusted for teenagers :)

Or, a set amount could be declared for various items such as food or clothing
allowances (kinda like a "standard deduction", i guess), with the itemizee
required to show some sort of proof that the kid isn't stuck eating weenies and
beans when there's a $200/month food allowance or whatever.

The intent of itemization, as i see it, is to try to get a rough estimate of how
the money is truly being spent, and to keep the CP honest. (Like where is my
husband's X getting money to pull legal chicanery when she doesn't even work? 
Since she's not getting alimony, it must be the child support.  Funny, she
doesn't look under 18....)

Just my $.02

-- 
=============================================================================
Belinda Asbell        +  System Administrator, Harris Controls Division
mba@ccd.harris.com    +      Any opinions presented are mine alone.
  Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.
From: dan.baer@ehbbs.gwinnett.com (Dan Baer) 
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
Subject: PHONE TO ADDRESS
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Ed Hopper's BBS - Berkeley Lake, GA - 404-446-9462
Reply-To: dan.baer@ehbbs.gwinnett.com (Dan Baer) 

 Okay. I am trying to find the address for an unlisted phone number.
I would also like to find out about the background of the person that
lives there. I have tried to get the address from Southern Bell,
Georgia Power, the Post Office, as well as trying to get the Drivers
License information (however GA does not distribute Drivers License
information as public information). The phone number is not listed
in the Aug '92 edition of Hill-Donnely's CrissCross reference, and
Haines says that their CrissCross is not current for that exchange
(562) (Temple GA).  So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I
can find the address of this phone number?  I am presently waiting for
an information package from 'Dialog' Information Systems. I was told
that their database may help in obtaining information about the person
once I find out the address of the phone number. Does anyone have any
experience with 'Dialog' or any other online service for this type of
situation? If not, does anyone know of a good, reputable PI in the
metro Atlanta area? I have the name of the person that is supposed to
be at this phone number, but I'm not sure if it is their real name. I
also know (if they were honest) where their mother lives. (Thomaston,
GA).   Someone told me that a good way to find the name and address
for a phone number would be to make a Calling Card call to the number.
When the Calling Card bill comes in, call the phone company and ask
for the name and address of the number. Do you know if this works,
even if the number is unlisted?
                                                                                                                       
----
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       Ed Hopper's BBS - ehbbs.gwinnett.com - Atlanta, Georgia         |
|  USR/HST: 404-446-9462                  V.32bis: 404-446-9465         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3245 alt.child-support:4272 soc.men:22415
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:15:50 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <C0Jo7D.8Ly@vcd.hp.com>, johne@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (John Eaton) writes:
> sbishop@desire.wright.edu wrote:
> : 
> : Ohio's support seems quite reasonable to me.  It's based on both parents'
> : income, does not exceed 20% of the total of both.  So if each is 50% of
> : the entire total, each only contribute 10%.
> : 
> : Sue
> -----------------------
> Suppose one parent gets a $1,000 a year raise. CS goes up by $200 per year
> with each side kicking in $100 each. (It may be more like 98/102 due to
> the effect of the raise). Is it fair to charge one parent more money simply
> because the other one got a raise?
> 
> John Eaton
> !hp-vcd!johne
> 
> 

This does tend to be an inequity of the system.  However, our state also has
a recommended cap on the total amount of child support.  Whether this guide
line really means anything, I don't know.  But I do know in our county, it's
usually around the same as the amount the county pays for foster care which
is $300 a month.  Of course, this is just a guideline, which means the court
can order more if the parents' income is more.  

I really don't think it is fair to penalize one parent if the other gets a
raise.  However, it would only be raised if the whole thing goes to court.
And, in a case where both parents are supposedly kicking in X amount, which
one is going to go to court?  Usually the CP.  And if the amount is only
going to increase by $102 per year, it's not really worth going to court
because of the legal expense.  Increases in support are not automatic, at 
least not here in Ohio.
  
My only experience in this matter is as the recepient of the support since
I am Mike's legal guardian via the Juvenile Court system, not Childrens' 
Services.  

Sue
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: mgsail@prefect.cc.bellcore.com (goldstein,marvin)
Subject: Re: College is not a "right".
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 19:56:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.064148.6423@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.025648.9915@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>> 
>> Children whose parents are married have no "right" to college money.  If
>> June and Ward decide not to pay for the Beav's education, no court in the
>> land can make them pay.
>> 
>> Now, some folks are saying that if June divorces Ward, Beav suddenly
>> becomes entitled to his college money.  Why?
>> 

I would like to point out that, at least in NJ, if the parents of child can
afford to send their child to Rutgers (it forms a cost cap), and the child
has the grades for college, the child can SUE the parents to go to college.
Thus, courts in this land can make them pay.

Marv
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3155 alt.child-support:4134 soc.men:22207
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 5 Jan 93 19:34:15 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <C0E0GM.86t@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>Apparently, when the "court's point of view" agrees with yours --
>namely, ordering child support for ponies and Florida condos --
>then it's okay to go beyond a "minimal amount of support." 
>
>But when the "court's point of view" orders a man to pay hundreds of
>thousands of dollars per year in child support, then you "go on the
>record" to say it's ridiculous (though you notably objected to the
>*child* getting the money, not the mother).
>
>For a middle-class NCP, over the course of eighteen years, 
>the total child support money including ponies, Florida condos, 
>or the *gasp* college savings that *you* personally refuse to give 
>to *your* children (seems not to be a necessity in your view) 
>amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
>
>
>Are you in favor of court-ordered luxuries, or do you feel entitled
>to reject just the ones that *you* happen to disagree with?  
>
>On the record, Sue.  Just what are your principles?
>
>Don
>-- 
>beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged

	I hate it when people have court orders and wear them
	on their sleeve like it's an edict from God.

	"you have to do it!  It's a court order!"

	Yesterday on Oprah the topic was alimony.  One woman
	and her ex were there.  He pays over $600 per week,
	and $400 ia alimony.  She had said something about
	not wanting it.  But *he* said that every time
	he calls her on it she balks.

	She's sittin pretty and won't give an inch.  I guess
	he's been in jail 5 times.
	
	but like you say, if the court agrees with you, people
	LOVE to flaunt it.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: johne@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (John Eaton)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:52:24 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

sbishop@desire.wright.edu wrote:
: 
: Ohio's support seems quite reasonable to me.  It's based on both parents'
: income, does not exceed 20% of the total of both.  So if each is 50% of
: the entire total, each only contribute 10%.
: 
: Sue
-----------------------
Suppose one parent gets a $1,000 a year raise. CS goes up by $200 per year
with each side kicking in $100 each. (It may be more like 98/102 due to
the effect of the raise). Is it fair to charge one parent more money simply
because the other one got a raise?

John Eaton
!hp-vcd!johne


Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3207 alt.child-support:4218 soc.men:22334
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:30:15 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <1993Jan6.131329.6442@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>YOU were the one who kept bringing up the Florida trip.  I've repeatedly
>suggested that if *YOU* can explain how to take a trip to Florida and
>only spent $300 then you should do so.

	And *you* keep on comparing the cost of the trip to the amount
	you receive for support.

	a)  Don't  compare (i.e refer to the amount you reveice for support
	as the amount of a trip cost).

	b)  Don't complain about or add in a trip cost as a cost of
	living arguement.



>I still can't understand why you seem to think that approximately $70
>dollars a week is excessive support for a teenager.  Ever tried to feed 
>a growing boy?  Or buy clothes for them?  Either you dress your kids out
>of the Good Will store and starve them or you are being entirely dishonest
>as to your costs.


	Nobody has.  But my wife regularly goes to consignment shops
	for clothes for my daughter (and even herself).  They have 
	good deals.  But it's that "carte balnc" attitude that
	states that anything not purchased at retail price is
	"substandard" in some way.  If you can't pick up the phone,
	have it delivered, assembled, or installed, and paid for
	then the father should pay more so you can.  That's 
	many peoples feeling.  Like I said, I was wearing clothes
	from High school after college. And I still remember my 
	ex making a statement to me, "What do you want him to do,
	wear flannel shirts?"


	Yes! I do!


>You are totally obsessed by the pony issue.  And after being told repeatedly


	Nobody is.  It's just become a catch phrase.  what's more,
	it's a guaranteed way to tweak you.  And it makes people wonder
	*why* you would be so sensitive about something that you argue
	is perfectly kosher.


-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: PLANCHAJ@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Tony Planchart)
Subject: Re: Sample Separation agreements
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:09:07 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1993Jan7.002005.24284@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> mikelle@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu writes:
> Is there a book available that has some sample separation agreements
> in it?  I realize that everyone's divorce is different especially
> when it involves children, but I would be more comfortable if I
> could see a few examples to make sure I'm not leaving out something
> obvious.
> 
> Thanks for any help!
> 
> Eddie


A good source of information is at the county clerk's office.  Simply request
to view the divorce docket and select a few files to peruse.  The service is
free unless you elect to have the files photocopied.  Hopefully you live in or
near your county seat... good luck.

Tony
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3284 alt.child-support:4334 soc.men:22515
From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:29:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1993Jan11.092930.16033
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <6cV3wB3w165w@dogear.spk.wa.us> bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
>snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>
>> Isn't it strange that society insists on all of this belly hoooo when
>> it comes to fathers who have left the home, but society will not
>> ask for an accounting from still married couples?  How many children
>> out there with both parents still together don't get enough to eat, wear
>> or enough medical attention.......We should make all parents accountable
>> for their children......
>
>AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHH!
>
>Thank you, but what the 'law' is already doing FOR us is quite enough.
>
>Family values, regardless of what the media says, or what bandwagon
>Bush/Clinton choose to jump on, cannot be legislated. Given that Oper-
>ation Desert Storm failed to 'cure' the problems it was mounted to
>fix, what says that more force is necessary at home. 
>
>Some things cannot be thrust at people in general when the problem is
>an individual one. 
>
>Like snowfalkes, all people are different. Legislation would like to
>lump everyone into a single class or category, and it can't. The large
>number of problems with family law demonstrate that clearly. To say we
>should apply a misfunctioning system to everyone when it isn't working
>for a 'few' is a bad idea in my book.

I didn't propose a law...I just made a statement about how
stupid this society is about enforcing responsiblities in some
case and not in others.  I can guarentee you that there are more
worse of kids in married house holds than in broken homes....


>
>---
>Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
>Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA


Boy, didn't you get excited about my statement......It just blows my 
mind that people can focus so much on the awful father who won't pay
child support when we cannot get many parents out there feed their
kids period.  Sort of goes along the same thought process in this
country that one has to be a saint to adopt a child but can just
screw and birth a child on a whim.........

Bil
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3251 alt.child-support:4278 soc.men:22433
From: steveg@iplmail.orl.mmc.com (Steve Gabrilowitz)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: Martin Marietta
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:57:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.215457.15658@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, smile1@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (gray,david l) writes:

|> 
|> We should never micro-manage an adults money.
|> 

Quite true.  But what you seem to be forgetting is that many single parents (both
NCP and CP types) are adults by way of chronological age only ;-)

-- 



I think
I think I am
Therefore I am!
I think...



                            Steve Gabrilowitz
                            Martin Marietta, Orlando Fl.
                            steve-gabrilowitz@orl.mmc.com
                            Fidonet 1:363/1701 (407-380-1701)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: smile1@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (gray,david l)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 21:24:21 GMT

>I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
>for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
>father shut up.  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
>transportation?  I routinely put about 100+ miles a week during the
>summer, just taking Mike to and fro to softball practice and games.  
>
>
>A sincere smile is one thing, putting the word at the end of a really
>nasty post is totally another.
>
>Sue

Sue

Your note agrees with my note.  CPs doing accounting is stupid. If they
are raising the child right, people should leave them alone.  If they are
doing it poorly they should be removed from the position of CP.  Both parents
should have enough money to pay for the things that they want for the
child, not just one.

I agreed with you and did not right smile at the end of a nasty note.
I really think accounting is far away from what people really want.  I
actually think it would give CPs the ability to really hurt the NCP if
they had a higher income.  Can you imagine if the CP made 100,000 a year
and the NCP made $20,000.  How could the NCP ever keep up or have any
money left to spend on the child him/her self.

Smile,

Dave
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: College is not a "right".
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 02:56:48 GMT


Children whose parents are married have no "right" to college money.  If
June and Ward decide not to pay for the Beav's education, no court in the
land can make them pay.

Now, some folks are saying that if June divorces Ward, Beav suddenly
becomes entitled to his college money.  Why?


Paul Ciszek                      When we are planning for posterity, we
                                 ought to remember that virtue is not
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu            hereditary.     --Thomas Paine
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3147 alt.child-support:4115 soc.men:22179
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: College is not a "right".
Date: 5 Jan 93 06:41:48 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1993Jan5.025648.9915@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
> 
> Children whose parents are married have no "right" to college money.  If
> June and Ward decide not to pay for the Beav's education, no court in the
> land can make them pay.
> 
> Now, some folks are saying that if June divorces Ward, Beav suddenly
> becomes entitled to his college money.  Why?
> 

I do think this is entirely unfair.  
But then, I think that NO ONE should be paying for the child's college
except the child.  I worked my way through school, I have several students
working for me who are working their way through school.  It is more 
appreciated if you pay for it yourself.  

Just one added thing.  I also consider driving a car a privilege, not a
right.  I have two teenagers who are old enough to drive.  Neither are
driving.  They have to save up enough money to pay for their share of
the insurance increase first.  THEN and *ONLY* then will I permit them
to get their driver's license.

I figure it comes under the heading of teaching responsibility.

Sue


Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men