HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:37:00 GMT
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>Yes, GURPs has rules (both optional and not) to simulate supers acting
>faster then normals.  As does Hero.  But, in GURPs, acting faster then
>a normal human is the exception, not the rule.  In the Champions
>campaigns that I have been in, 4 has been pretty much the minimum
>speed. That means that even the hulking bricks have been twice as
>fast as a normal person.  And those with a speed of 4 have generally
>seemed to be pretty slow by party standards.

	Couple of things: the first is that there are plenty of 'normal 
humans' with SPD's of 3 and 4. The average combat-type (policeman, thug, 
etc.) should probably have a SPD of 3, and I have veterans and other 
experienced folk with SPD's of 4. 
	Second is that the standard in GURPS is realism, which you 
are contrasting to the comic-book action which is the standard for 
'Superheroic' campaigns in Hero. If you want supers to be not much faster 
than normals, then I suggest you retain the SPD maxima of 4, recommended 
by Hero for more realistic, 'Heroic' campaigns. 
	This still means that it is relatively cheap to get twice as 
many actions in combat as the average person - but then the average person 
has virtually no experience with combat, and probably should not be that 
effective. 

>
>It is the fact that most Champs characters seem to have DCV's much 
>higher then the average gunman's OCV that keeps me from being scared
>by bullets. 

	Again, this is mostly a case for characteristic maxima. Also, 
remember that most levels cannot be applied to DCV against ranged attacks. 
	In both Hero and GURPS, it is easy for a super to buy stuff to 
make himself immune to bullets, or in general hard to hit by normals, 
etc. 
	However, in Hero, buying up your DEX and SPD to superhuman levels 
is fairly standard in typical comic-bookish superhero games. The reason is 
that it is effective to do so. 
	In GURPS, the more effective means of making yourself immune to 
damage is to buy up your DR, I think - unless the multiple actions rules 
are being used, in which case it is best to buy up your Move, and get 
a great Dodge and multiple actions. 

	The solution to both these is to restrict people to only buying 
powers which fit a single concept. If you are able to project flame, this 
does not let you take a 'flame shield' in GURPS, or to buy up your DEX and 
SPD in Hero past maximum for a normal human. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "Deservin's got nothing to do with it."
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |
Columbia University         |                - William Munny, 'Unforgiven'
From: mm68@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Lost Boy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sexist (?) Language in Rules (was Re: Q: Looking for "women's" rpg
Date: 5 Oct 92 13:20:25 GMT
Organization: University of Brighton, UK

I think I am right in saying that in the front of the AD&D 2nd Ed (at least)
there is a statement saying that all references to the masculine also inferred
the feminine, but that it was more readable just to put he, him, etc than 
him/her, he/she.

I think that whilst sexism does exists and is a valid topic (stereotypes are
very common in roleplaying) this is NOT one such instance.

Pads

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|On the end of every wizards staff is a knob! - T.Pratchett                 |
|									    |
|Michael May, Brighton University, Sussex, England			    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: morrow@romulus.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:27:07 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

>	It is not a major rules problem in GURPS - but it is something that 
>definitely should be fixed. 

Actually, according to the GURPS design article in the Space Gamer that 
accompanied the release of Man to Man, they "fixed" GURPS to be less 
deadly on purpose.  It was a design intent.  So don't hold your breath
for an "official" fix.  The idea is that it isn't terribly fun to spend
two hours making a character just to die with one hit -- even if that 
one hit is from a bazooka.  

John Morrow
morrow@remus.rutgers.edu
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Date: 6 Oct 92 05:14:44 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA writes:

> You accuse me of arrogance, and then cite your own opinions as fact and
> mine as fiction: an act I would call "arrogant". You criticize me for
> passing-off my
> opinions as facts, when I claimed no factuality for them. Then you claim
> all of your opinions are fact due to some job you had once which has
> nothing to do with the *gaming* issue at hand.
>
> ....
>
> While my opinions are perhaps not humble or moderate, I am clear on the
> fact they are opinions.

Not in the least.  I saw no sign of them being presented as opinions; you
presented them quite clearly as facts.  Unless you clearly present statements
as opinions, it is hard to tell when you are stating facts or stating
opinions. If you would like all statements you make to be assumed to be
opinions, you will have trouble in a real debate, where facts are presented
and judged.

J.D. presented arguments in the "game vs reality simulation" debate, and
supported them with statements from personal experience and other sources.
You can give that support whatever weight you feel it deserves, but if you
wish to contend them, you must provide supported arguments of your own.
That's how debating works.  :)

If a game claims to be "realistic" is some aspect, it is open to arguments
based on real life experiences and statistical data.  If someone claims that
GURPS combat is realistic in its combat rules, he should be prepared to offer
real-life evidence for it, and to defend against arguments that also use
real-life evidence.

IMO, the arguments presented so far weigh in favour of GURPS combat being
unrealistic.  Does anyone wish to provide supported arguments to contest that
verdict?

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 19:10:05 GMT

jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>
>	Yes, but the trouble is that in GURPS is happens all the time for 
>people of HT 15 or greater. A quick check with a calculator will reveal 
>that there is over a 50% chance that these people will have to be taken 
>down to -5*HT in order to kill them. 

I find it odd that you open this post with a discussion of brain shots
and then ignore it here, where it is most relevent.  There is an easy way
to take down even a berserker of HT 15: brain shot.  Do over half HT in
damage and the victim is automatically knocked out - no HT roll allowed.

Since brain damage is quadrupled, all you have to do is get 2 points of
damage past the skull and helmet DR to knock out an HT 15 character.
Period.  Then you can slit his throat at will - no HT roll allowed there,
either.

Granted, this won't help much where you have massive levels of DR on the
head, but any GM who allows massive levels of DR in GURPS is only asking
for trouble, anyway.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jacobus@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Ryk Spoor and Superhero rpg's.
Date: 27 Sep 92 02:11:55 GMT
Organization: Purdue University



Ryk has once again endorsed Marvel and Villains & Vigilantes as "superior"
superheroic role-playing games.  At least this time he stated that they were
more to his taste than somehow inherently "superior".

However, before answering him, in agreement or rebuttal, it should be noted
that when Ryk refers to a game that he likes, he usually means something with
only a passing resemblance to what one can find "out of the box".  To be
blunt, from what I've heard from him and gleaned from his postings, Ryk
runs campaigns which use rules that have only incidental similarities to
commercially published games.  Generally, Ryk seems to prefer those games
which simply have less.  Less rules, less detail, less etc.  Why?  It's
less work for him to re-write everything to suit.
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Development in Point Systems
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:36:22 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Sep27.204810.10022@Princeton.EDU>, mfterman@dae.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes:
> 
> As an example, reputations, contacts, allies and enemies in GURPS and
> Hero both cost and give points. These features often change after a
> gaming session by actions of the characters. Requiring points spent
> for new allies and contacts earned through roleplaying is as silly as
> giving out excess points for new enemies. (granted, disadvantages
> earned in roleplay are often recommended not to have any balancing
> points in the books, but this argues my point)


	If it is legitimately gained in play, I don't require the character to
pay points for it, but I *do* have the player note the advantage and cost, and
then increase his character's point value.

	
> 
> A character uses lots of swordplay will probably get somewhat better
> with a sword. A character who uses a lot of DEX skills will probably
> be a bit more agile and coordinated over time. Likewise for mental
> skills. If you really want to be unpleasant to characters, make sure
> that unused skills start to fade over time. Exercising strength will
> make one stronger. In superhero systems you can do the same for power.

	Rules for skill deterioration over time is one of the few worthwhile
things in GURPS Special Ops. However, if I recall correctly, it takes at least
3 or 6 months (can't remember which) before the skill starts decreasing.

> 
> As for rewarding players at the end of a session. Many systems have
> karma points or hero points or whatever, that can be spent to aid die
> rolls or in some cases to get new skills out of the blue. (though I'd
> prefer to see roleplay to justify getting the new skill)

	In my GURPS fantasy/horror/cyber camapign, characters are allowed to
learn only one new skill or spell between adventures (*not* sessions). Other
points may either be saved or spent on current skills.
	I don't actually use a karma system, but did improvise on one occasion:
the elf mage got nailed by automatic fire from an M-16, and, unfortunately,
failed his Death roll. Being a generous GM (also a sadistic one for setting up
the situation) and not liking to see PCs fall like flies, I gave him an
alternative -- I'd let him change the result of the Death roll *if* he'd
forfeit 12 of the 24 character points he had accumulated to buy up his IQ.
Grumbling, he did so (the other players pointed out that a live character with
+12 points is better than a dead one with +24). In retrospect, considering the
nature of the campaign, I should have let him die, but brought him back as a
spirit [yes, Slimer with pointy ears 8-) ].


Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: twilight 2000
Summary: n
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 03:02:21 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-18235]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu


Sorry, my newsreader deleted the article I was replying to because it was
longer the 255 characters per line (please use the return key).

	I've never really had a problem with Twilight's combat being too
long or tedious.  Each to hit determination is one roll, then two more
rolls will give you hit location (if you are worried about that; I don't
always when NPC's are getting hit I just assign a spot) and damage.  It
doesn't seem any more complex then most other systems.  Better then many
because there are no modifiers to be applied for differing combat actions
unless the GM wants to apply them (ie in most fire combat just declare
if the shot is easy, normal or difficult by looking at range, cover and so
on; it isn't how the book does it but its easy).

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
From: loydb@fnordbox.UUCP (Loyd Blankenship)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:50:42 CST
Organization: Texas Net Illuminati

In article <1992Oct4.135833.1350@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
> > gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis) writes:
> >>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
> >>>	OTOH, the multiple action rules are unbalanced and not well
> >>>integreted, IMO. Anyone who buys up his Move not only gets a Dodge that
> >>>makes him immune to almost anything -
> >>
> >>Maximum dodge is 8.
>
>
>	No, maximum PD is 8.

My house rule (SJ wouldn't let me make it official) is that no one can
have a Dodge better than 14.

I'm also tinkering with a -1 cumulative penalty for Dodges in the same turn.

Loyd

***************************************************************************
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From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: State of the art
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:44:21 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <80612@ut-emx.uucp>, dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle) writes:
> All the things I've seen happening in the last year or so, like
> Vampire and Werewolf and Shadowrun are very, very discouraging.
> I think that bad game designs with good background material are
> one of the banes of the roleplaying marketplace.  They lower
> player expectations and condition them to accept inferior game
> designs when they ought to be out looking for rules which do
> justice to the background they come with.

	I've noticed two basic trends. First, there seem to be more games with
poor mechanics but good backgrounds, and 'dark future' games are becoming (far
too) common. I can deal with the first trend by just using the background with
GURPS :-), and I tend to ignore games of the second trend -- face it, if I 
wanted to see a dark, depressing world, I'd just turn on the TV news or read a
newspaper ;-).

Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: tsang@cs.washington.edu (Donald Tsang)
Subject: Re: State of the art
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 23:27:14 GMT

In article <80468@ut-emx.uucp> dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle) writes:
>>GURPS was state of the art
>>in '88 because it was the first widely distributed system designed to be
>>used with multiple genres.
>
>But NOT the first multi-genre game.  TO CHALLENGE TOMORROW was originally
>published in 1984, and it was (and is) simpler, more flexible and more
>adaptable than GURPS.  In fact, but 1988 TCT was already in its third
>edition.

And the Hero System was perhaps even earlier.  Champions in 1981, and
the Hero System officially designated in 1984 (this info from the
Copyright dates listed in my Hero System Rulebook).  IMHO, "Designed to
be used" is deceptive.

For that matter, wasn't AD&D designed to be used with Gamma World and
Boot Hill?  The first edition Dungeon Master's Guide had rules to
share characters between worlds... :-)

-- 
Donald Tsang                    "Ho!  Haha!  Guard!  Turn!  Parry!  Dodge!
tsang@june.cs.washington.edu     Spin!  Ha!  Thrust!"
..!uw-beaver!june!tsang                       -- Robin Hood Daffy
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Super rp's
Date: 26 Sep 92 17:49:13 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Sep25.205006.11539@cs.tulane.edu>, eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar) writes:
> In article <1992Sep25.123929.1177@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes...
>>In article <1992Sep24.215422.26801@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:
> 
>>> 	On an adaptablity basis, that GURPS normals can move and attack
>>> as quickly as Supers, it a weak point.  It demonstrates that although, 
>>> Hero may be marginally weak in some of the lower point values, GURPS 
>>> cannot simulate a power that we find in 4-color comics.  Heck, Batman
>>> and Captain America can probably move much faster than normals.
> 
>>	First, the two mentioned above would certainly have Combat Reflexes
>>(increases initiative), and most non-combatant normals would have Combat
>>Paralysis (just not used to fighting). Also, the Chambara rules could
>>easily be applied.
> 
> 
> 	One of my biggest dislikes in the GURPS system is that there is
> a constant need (either real or perceived) to grant advantages and disads
> when they are too extreme.  To me, combat reflexes and combat paralysis are
> extremes.  Not all trained soliders have combat reflexes.  Not all non-
> trained types have combat paralysis.  
> 	In the specific example above I'd say Batman has combat reflexes.
> Cap has enhanced speed, strength and so on.  By 'now' (ie having been around
> since WWII) he has picked up lots of skill levels/combat reflexes.  However,
> closer to his creation I do not think he had them.  Similarly, I do not
> feel that every character with a military/police background should have
> c. reflexes.  

	You are attacking a straw man -- I didn't say that all police and 
soldiers have combat reflexes, nor was I inferring that.

> 	Combat paralysis is something that I rarely invoke. A sterotypical
> nerd would get it.  A completely soft and somewhat timid person would get
> it.  To me it isn't to be used to simulate lack of combat experience;
> that's handled by a lack of skills (and at least partially by roleplaying).
> C. paralysis simulates a much greater then normal inability to deal with
> combat.  

	To me, Combat Paralysis represents the mental inability of a person to
handle combat quickly. A person with few and low combat skills is much more
likely to have combat paralysis than a person with many and high combat skills.
There is a (slight) correlation between combat skills and combat
reflexes/paralysis.

> 	BTW, what is this bit about Chambora rules??
> 

	I don't remember tham all myself, but basically a Chambara fighter with
a skill of 15 or greater in a melee weapon (sword, hand, knife, etc) may get
one extra attack for each full three levels of skill over 12. Watch some
kung-fu movies to see chambara rules used to the max :-)

Brandon Cope

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: CX6L <CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
Organization: McGill University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:37:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.145703.9069@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
> The problem is that it scales badly with higher HT, so that there
>is a fairly sharp break around 14HT: above that and characters usually have
>to be beaten down to -5xHT to kill them.                               tent

To kill the character *outright* (ie, in battle), certainly. But
*any* character below (-HT) will need rapid medical help to avoid
death (see the Injury section). This was left as a qualitative
rule intended for GM interpretation, no doubt to enhance the chance
of PC and arch-villain survival. As well, GURPS has good, detailed
bleeding rules which, at -MANY*HT, will almost ensure the demise of
anyone! You seem to think instant death, with the target falling
over dead, is a realistic combat result. *It's not!* Adrenaline
can keep someone who will be brain-dead in minutes up, conscious
and fighting. For a good dramatization of a *real-life* case of
this, obtain and watch the made-for-TV tape: "The FBI Murders".
This account dramatizes, towards the end, a real-life case of
two criminals who receive close-range shotgun wounds and full
clips of pistol rounds to the face and chest and still keep
shooting. It *isn't* fiction!!

______________________________________________________________________
|      From the Most Holy Keyboard of:                               |
|      Dr Manfred Kromm, Reverend of the Temple of the Squid God,    |
|      Professor of Quantum Parapsychology.                          |
|____________________________________________________________________|
|           )                               "This won't hurt a bit.  |
|  |========|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO>------      Afterwards . . . you'll |
|           )                                see things MY way!"     |
|____________________________________________________________________|
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Storyteller System (Was:  WereVamp->Ars)
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:02:49 GMT
	<1992Oct2.134915.21415@news.uiowa.edu> <1992Oct5.102220.3452@crc.ac.uk>
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
In-reply-to: aking@crc.ac.uk's message of 5 Oct 92 10:22:20 GMT
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]

>>>>> "MAK" == Mr. A.W. King <aking@crc.ac.uk> writes:

MAK> Just a quick note, the following is not true:

MAK> You can never have more than ten dice in one roll.

Two things you fail to mention are the difference between a "dice
pool" and "rolling dice." A dice pool is the maximum number of dice
you have for one "round." A dice pool may be split up into several
rolls, if desired, in one action; this is the only defense someone
without Celerity has against someone who does.

Humans may have no more than 10 dice in their *pool*. According to
Mark Reign*Hagen (the creator of the Storyteller System),
supernaturals may not *roll* more than 10 dice at a time, though they
may split their pools up. There is not cap on dice pools for
supernaturals.

MAK> Celerity adds to Dex and Potence to Strength so e.g.
MAK> Dex(5)+Skill(3)+Cel(3)=11

So a vampire with the above stats could split his dice pool up into
two rolls, one with 5 dice and one with 6. But he still could not roll
more than 10 dice at once, leaving 1 die in his pool.

--Rat
||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat          ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
40,000 men and women every day/Another 40,000 comin' every day/Come on baby/
Baby take my hand/We'll be able to fly/Baby I'm your man
                                    --Blue Oyster Cult, (Don't Fear) The Reaper