From: wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage)
Subject: Re: Re: I'm Pro-Male-Choice\
Followup-To: talk.abortion,alt.dads-rights
Summary: Re-post for Larry.
Organization: Boye, Dewey, Cheetham and Howe, Atty's.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:52:59 GMT

I'm re-posting this to t.a so that more knowledgable people can refute it.

In article <16650011@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> larryf@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Larry Ferreira) writes:
>I'll post this note in alt.dads-rights and mail a copy to Mr. Cage, I
>don't have access to talk.abortion.  
>I apologise for taking up as much bandwith as I already have with this
>subject, I didn't intend to, but I couldn't allow Mr. Cage's attack to
>go unanswered.
>
>> -In alt.dads-rights, wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes:
>> ->  In <16650009@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> larryf@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Larry Ferreira) writes:
>> ->  This is an anti-abortionist lie.  There is no such effect.
>> ->  If you continue to claim otherwise, cite reliable medical
>> ->  authorities (peer-reviewed papers in authoritative journals,
>> ->  not Bernard Nathanson).
>> -
>> -I don't even know who Bernard Nathanson is.  I don't want to get into
>> -a debate with you on the subject.  The 'burden of proof' argument goes
>> -both ways, and statistics do lie.  All I know is that in studying the
>> -effects on abortion I've run across what I've said above and I stand on
>> -my above statements.
>> 
>> So, in what journals have you published your results?
>> 
>> Don't tell me you're relying on anecdotal evidence without
>> any kind of statistical controls, and presenting this as
>> a universal truth, now.  I'd be seriously disappointed.
>>
>
>I take it your question is not based on obtaining knowledge, but to be
>used as a retorical putdown.
>
>> 
>> ->  >This also causes a lot of physical stress to the woman's body, not to 
>> ->  >mention her mental stability.
>> -
>> ->  Physical stress:
>> ->  Chance of death from abortion before 8 weeks:       1 in 400,000
>> ->  Chance of death from abortion, 8-12 weeks:  1 in 100,000
>> ->  Chance of death from full-term pregnancy:   1 in  10,000
>> -
>> -I wonder how many of the deaths caused by full-term pregnancy are caused
>> -by improper medical care?  Again statistics can be made to favor whatever
>> -way fits an argument.
>> 
>> Don't change the subject.  You were claiming abortion is stressful.
>> (Half-truth.)  I supplied the other half of the truth.  Now either
>> 'fess up or go away.
>
>"'fess up or go away."  Another put-down argument.
>
>Here are the statistics you 'asked' for.  Although I doubt they'll do
>any good in convinceing you of how one sided your position is.  But first
>let me re-state what my original position was and is:  Consequences of
>abortion do exist, and women have the right to know what they are before
>they choose abortion as their option.
>
>Since, from the statistics above you chose to limit the time frame to
>an eight week period, I deal with that.  About 95% of all the abortions
>done are done by the 'Suction Curettage' method, and this is the method
>used for pregnacies below the 12 week period.  It is the most commonly 
>performed abortion.  The cervix is dilated, a hollow plastic tube with
>a shape edge on its tip is inserted into the womb.  Suction is applied,
>and the embryo or fetus is torn into a glass jar.  If the fetus is ten
>weeks or older, the fetus may be too large to be completely sucked out
>of the womb, in which case manual cutting and scraping is necessary.
>
>Pregnancies developing outside of the womb are responsible for 12% of all
>maternal deaths. <-- This is from the 'Annual Ectopic Totals Rose Steadily
>in 1970's, but Mortality Rates Fell', and article from Family Planning
>Perspectives, March/April 1983, p.253 
>
>Studies have found that the risk of such a pregnancy is roughly doubled
>for women who have had one abortion and multiplied up to four times for
>women with two or more previous abortions.  <-- from  1. 'Ectopic Pregnancy
>and Prior Induced Abortion' Ann Aschengrau Levin, et al, American Journal
>of Public Health, March 1982, pg. 253;  2. 'Secondary Infertility Following
>Induced Abortion', Lampe, et. al., Studies in Family Planning, Vol. 15,
>No. 6 part 1. Nov.-Dec. 1984. (In Levin: op cit);  3. 'Ectopic Pregnancy'
>M. Hern, T. Tomazevic, D. Seigel: In: Andolsek (ed): The Ljubjana Abortion
>Study, 1971-1973. Bethesda: National Institutes of Health, 1974, pp.34-38
> (In Levin: op cit.);  4.  'The Relationshop Between Artificial Abortion
> & Extrauterine Pregnancy', C. Swazaki Family Planning Federation of Japan,
> 1966, pp.49-63;  5. see 'The Relationship Between Induced Abortion an
> Outcome of Subsequent Pregnancies', Shai Linn, M.D., American Journal
> of Obstetrics & Gynecology, May 1983, pp. 136-140.
>
>Pelvic infection is a common and serious complication of induced abortion.
>It leads to fever and infertility.  One researcher says, "Pelvic infection
>is a serious complication ... and has been reported in up to 30% of all cases"
>-- 'Postabortal Pelvic Infection Associated with Chlamydia Tracomatis and
>the Influence of Humoral Immunity', Stellan Osser, M.D., and Denneth Persson,
>M.D., Andrican Journal of Obstetics & Gynecology, Nov. 1984, pp.699-703.
>
>Other physicians have found that infections such as endomitriosis follow
>approximately 5% of abortion porcedures.  And the risk of infection for
>younger women is over twice that for older women.  1. 'Culture and Treatment
>Results in Endometritis Following Elective Abortion' Ronald T. Burkman,
>M.D., American Journal of Obstetics & Gynecology, July 1977, pp556-599
>2. 'Morbidity Risk Amoung Young Adolecents Undergoing Elective Abortion',
>Ronald T. Burkman, M.D., Fertility Control Center, Johns Hopkins Medical
>Institutions, August 1984, pp99-105.
>
>I could go on and on...
>> 
>> ->  Mental stress:  Post-partum depression is well-documented and
>> ->  irrefutable.  "Post-abortion syndrome" cannot be demonstrated
>> ->  reliably.
>> -
>> -Perhaps, but from personal experiences I seen it.
>> 
>> Have you?  A recent study found that teenagers who abort have
>> *less* stress and go on to be *more* successful in school and
>> remain off welfare than either teens who carry to term or those
>> who turned out not to be pregnant.  Sounds anti-stressful to me.
>> Also empowering, giving them a sense of self-worth and -control.
>> 
>Again your argument does not fit what I've seen.  I was a volunteer for
>two years at a Pregnancy Crisis Center, where I started a male counseling
>program.  Although I did not allow myself to counsel women, I was in constant
>contact with volunteers that did.  For the women, the volunteer would
>follow the case beyond either delivery, adoption, or abortion.  In the
>case of abortion two paths are taken.  1. Get pregnant again, and start
>a cycle of abortion, or 2. Deal with the emotional reasons which lead to
>the pregnancy and the choice of abortion and end the cycle.
>
>There have been studies which show the opposite results from which you
>stated.  And, no doubt, there will be studies for a long time to come.
>Abortion, as we know it today, is relativity new.  The long term effects
>are yet to be seen.
>
>> Has it occured to you that you are seeing stress from the attitudes
>> of judgemental people such as yourself, or religious indoctrination?
>> 
>
>Yes, it has.  Yet in our society these things are real and they will be
>around a lot longer than you or I.  We need to deal with these issues
>in a sane and orderly way, not just rant and rave about how we feel.
>
>Again all I'm saying is that the consequence of our choice ought not be
>surpressed.  By knowing both sides of an issues its easier to make a choice
>you can live with.
>
>> ->  Abortion is both physically and mentally easier than not aborting.
>> -
>> -Dying is physically and mentally easier than living, so what!  I'm just
>> -stating that abortion is not without its conquences.
>> 
>> Another half-truth.  If birth and abortion were the only two runners
>> in a race, you'd claim that birth came in second while abortion came
>> in next to last.  True, but hardly complete or in good faith.
>
>I would say you are the one speaking in half-truths.  You took a neutral
>position and turned it into an argument.
>
>> 
>> I'm cross-posting to talk.abortion.  Followups are directed there.
>
>Larry Ferreira