HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 8 Oct 92 03:23:21 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Jason M Baragry (baragry@latcs1.lat.oz.au) wrote:
: 	Could somebody give me some info on how the EFTPOS works....
: What network does it run on, 

I've got family members working in a supermarket, and I asked them how 
much they know about it. The system within a supermarket is:

	Customer/Cashier runs card through hand held reader at the
  checkout. The Cash register contacts the master computer within the 
  supermarket, which then contacts the bank over standard telephone 
  lines (using modems). Financial details are then transfered in real 
  time.

	My family members don't know anything about protocols or security
methods taken, but I can only assume it is secure. It had better be, or
there would be a massive public outcry. Think about it. We type our PIN 
number in at the card reader, the supermarket could very easily store
the PIN number, and account information, and modify our accounts at their
leasure. 
	To stop something like this happening, I would bet the PIN security
is hardwired into the card reader, and the PIN number does not leave the
reader itself in any form.

: what sort of protocols does it use for security, etc. 

No idea. 

: And who owns it ?? The banks or one of the telecommunications
: companys ???

Telecom is involved as much as simply providing a carrier - the supermarket
and bank pay for their use of the lines to transfer data.

: thanks
: 
: Jason Baragry

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley		Computer Science and Electrical Engineering Student
Xref: sparky aus.general:1812 aus.aarnet:959
From: bevans@jabaru.cec.edu.au (Brian Evans)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 8 Oct 92 07:39:37 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Jabaru Timesharing, Melbourne Australia

ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:

>	My family members don't know anything about protocols or security
>methods taken, but I can only assume it is secure. It had better be, or
>there would be a massive public outcry. Think about it. We type our PIN 
>number in at the card reader, the supermarket could very easily store
>the PIN number, and account information, and modify our accounts at their
>leasure. 
>	To stop something like this happening, I would bet the PIN security
>is hardwired into the card reader, and the PIN number does not leave the
>reader itself in any form.

This is correct. The PIN number is calculated from the card number using
a key installed into the firmware on the EFT machine.


>: what sort of protocols does it use for security, etc. 

>No idea. 

2 keys are run on the network. An A and B key. One key controls the encryption 
on the line. If it is run the same as the ATM network which I believe it
is, then the MASTER on the bank's EFT controller randomly alters the 
encryption on the line at regular intervals. Transactions on other banks
go through a central switch to the other bank as far as I know.

>: And who owns it ?? The banks or one of the telecommunications
>: companys ???

ANZ I believe owns quite a swag. Telecom runs part of the network and
the product is called TRAN$END. 

Brian Evans
Xref: sparky aus.general:1833 aus.aarnet:971
From: jtc@ee.latrobe.edu.au (John Catsoulis)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 9 Oct 92 00:25:59 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Department of Electronic Engineering, La Trobe University

In article <1992Oct8.032321.13783@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:
>  lines (using modems). Financial details are then transfered in real 
>  time.

Actually, not so. I was speaking to the person in charge of the section that 
is responsible for EFTPOS of a major bank and they told me that they never
use it personally and that they just did not trust the system. When I 
asked why, I was told that when an EFTPOS transaction takes place and the link 
is down the store holds all the details of the transaction (including 
the PIN number that you typed) and completes the transaction when the link 
is back up. Apparently this is a very common occurence, and there have been
some cases where the store has then charged a higher amount than what should 
have been charged. Obviously the system is secure enough so that they can't get
to your PIN number directly, but if they can hold onto it once you've entered 
it...

John.
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
___                    ________Timing________       John Catsoulis,
   \__________________/   is everything.            Electronic Engineering,
____________           ______________________       La Trobe University,        
            \_________/                             Bundoora  3083  Australia.
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: steve@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Steve Balogh (+61 3 565 4747))
Subject: Re: V22 time service via a local PSTN c
Organization: Monash University, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:26:31 GMT

In article <993300067@peg.pegasus.oz.au> beam@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>
>|Accuracy of the seconds epoch at the exchange is one millisecond.
>
>hmmm...
>how long does it takes to transmit >20 chars at 1200 baud again....?

Have a closer look at the quoted line in context with the previous lines which
you have not quoted.

I'll type it in again for you. :)

"The transition between the stop bit of <CR> and start bit of <LF> marks the
 seconds epoch for each code frame.

 Accuracy of the seconds epoch at the exchange is one millisecond."

Please note:
1. A transition takes very little time at all at the exchange. (nanoseconds)
2. The claimed accuracy is at the exchange, not at your PC. You would have to
   make an allowance for the time delays involved in getting the signal to you
   from the exchange. I am not sure how you would do this accurately, so it is
   left as an exercise for the reader. :)

In any case, even if you don't get accuracy to within a couple of milliseconds,
this is still a useful way in setting your PC clock to a value accurate to
well within a second. And it can be automated. Adequate for most purposes?

Regards,
         Steve

----_--_-_-_--_-__-_------_-__---_-___-_----_-____-_-_--__-_--_--___-_-_-_--__-_
Steve Balogh  VK3YMY   (Maths G.14)   | steve@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au
Monash University, Clayton Campus     |      37 54'38.8"S  145 07'47.1"E ...ICBM
Wellington Road, Clayton.  	      |      +61 3 565 4747 Voice (Office)
Melbourne, AUSTRALIA. 3168	      |      +61 3 565 4746 Fax
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: 11437294@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (NATHAN WHEAT)
Subject: Re: Hello
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:47:07 GMT

In article <nabeel.718745650@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan) writes:
>From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
>Subject: Hello
>Date: 10 Oct 92 19:34:10 GMT
>Hello.

Hi, how are you?
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: lawley@kurango.cit.gu.edu.au (michael lawley)
Subject: Re: Import duty into Australia
Organization: Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 10:16:47 GMT

10666281@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (KEVIN PRATER) writes:

>	After looking at the American PC magazine and the low
>prices they pay, I was wondering what the import duty was on various 
>items is.
>Do you pay a fixed rate like so many %
>or do it depend on the item you import?

Good question.

>So is the import duty around this 20% ?

The import duty for various items is as follows:

	personal electronics		%22.5
	white goods			%33
	pre-packaged food stuffs	%40
	occasional furniture		%5
	motor vehicles (standard)	%75
	motor vehicles (luxury)		%80

>Is there any fundimental flaw in my reasoning?

Of course, your mileage may vary because, like you, I didn't
bother to look in the phone book and call customs either.

>Thanks
>Kevin Prater

you're welcome
mike
-- 
    michael lawley (lawley@cit.gu.EDU.AU).        The Unicycling Postgrad
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.politics
From: plt@cd.dsto.gov.au (Peter Trudinger)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Information on cards for Craig Shergold
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:57:41 GMT
Reply-To: plt@cd.dsto.gov.au
Followup-To: aus.followup
Distribution: world,aus
Organization: DSTO, Australia


Someone I know has recently "discovered" a story about a young boy who has cancer,
and who is trying to collect as many business cards as he can, in order to 
get into the Guinness Book of Records.

I recall reading about this project some time ago on the net.  The gist of
the article was that the story is old, the boy has recovered and does not
want any more cards.  Indeed I recall that the number of cards has created 
a problem for him and others.

However, I didn't save the article, and it isn't on our news spool any more.
I could find a couple of references to Craig Shergold (the child's name), e.g.
in a recent rhf joke, but this is not substantial enough to convince my
well meaning colleague.

If someone has a copy of this article, or information on where to find
a definitive refutation of this story, would you post it to me please?

Thanks


Peter Trudinger

plt@cd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: lee@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Lee Naish)
Subject: Re: New Victorian Premier/result using PR
Organization: Department of Computer Sci, University of Melbourne
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 03:26:04 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.163432.83@actew.oz.au> ina_pearce@actew.oz.au writes:
>if you used the same system for the federal election labor would not even be in
>power. And if you look back they probably wouldn't have won any of the recent
>elections.

The previous Victorian election would have been wone by the coalition
with PR.  The won before that Labor would have won.  Some of the
previous elections the coalition won would have been won by Labor with
PR.

>I find the current system of voting illegal because it affectively allows some
>voters to vote more than once.

Eh?

1) What are you referring to exactly?  People having multiple
identities, people being on the electoral role more than once, people
voting at multiple polling booths, saying they are someone else, bribing
voters or officials,...?

2) As far as I know the Victorian elections are run in accordance with
legislation passed by the parliament, hence the system is legal by
definition.  Note than in Victoria the is nothing in the constitution
about the electoral system.  Kennett may get legislation passed which
makes elections optional or even illegal.  I think the parliament can
even appoint Kennett (or me!) as a dictator and dissolve itself.

	lee
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: sfr@pdact.pd.necisa.oz.au (Stephen F. Rothwell)
Subject: Re: V22 time service via a local PSTN c
Organization: NEC Information Systems Australia, Canberra
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1992 07:53:06 GMT

sfr@pdact.pd.necisa.oz.au (Stephen F. Rothwell) writes:

>There is (and probably will never be) a number in Canberra.
       ^^
Of course I meant "is not" :-)

Stephen Rothwell		sfr@pdact.pd.necisa.oz.au
NEC Information Systems Australia
Software Development Centre
Canberra, Australia
Xref: sparky aus.general:1824 aus.aarnet:965
From: mgream@acacia (Matthew Gream)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:58:08 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
NNTP-Posting-Host: acacia.ccsd.uts.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Greg Rose (ggr@koonda.acci.com.au) wrote:

: The PIN is not stored directly on the card. Instead it is generated
[ ... ]
: enough for you to read the card and figure out the PIN (you also need
: to know the ATM network's secret key to achieve this).

 This is correct, apart from the normal account information and various
other data, there does exist on track2 ( the ISO (?) specifications 
define 3 tracks of data, I cannot remember all the details about the 
format and lengths of these tracks as it was some time ago I worked in
this area), a 4 digit numeric key that seemed to be random, this is most
likely the hash key that is used along with your account number and your
pin to test for a match.
 When I was younger I worked in a position where these little buggers
wizzed past me all the time, and other than the steady increment of the
account number, all that seemed to change was this 4 digit (I assume) 
hash key.

Just my 0.02c here ..

--
Matthew Gream --- M.Gream@uts.EDU.AU
Undergrad Computer Systems Engineer, University of Technology, Sydney.
From: baragry@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jason M Baragry)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Touch Screens
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:58:37 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

G'Day,
	I'm after some info about Touch Screens. Does anyone know how they
work, how they can be integrated with existing systems, who makes them
etc ???? eg: those things in Melb Central (for melbournians). 

	Can I slap one on top of a conventional PC or Mac and just write the
interfacing software.


thanks,

Jason Baragry
From: daved@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au (Dave Davey)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: Sydney Harbour Tunnel Update #19 (Q
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:52:53 GMT
Organization: Department of Physiology, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia

In <1992Oct14.084139.6683@rp.CSIRO.AU> pjordan@rp.CSIRO.AU (Patrick Jordan) writes:

>beam@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>> 
>> thanx for all the info brendan. it certainly is an amazing project.
>> 
>> just as a general question though...
>> 
>> does anybody think that is actually worth spending .75 billion dollars
>> to get more cars into sydney during peak hour?
>> 
>> after peak times it seems to me that it doesn't really acheive much and yet
>> all the traffic passing at these times still get taxed (tolled) extra
>> to help build the thing (if the tunnel hadn't been built the bridge tax should
>> have gone down (it used to be $1 before the tunnel plan)).
>> 
>> is this a case of the community at large paying for the luxury of just a few
>> citizens and the richest few at that?

The toll was only $0.20 before the tunnel plan, and some said it was due to be
removed altogether.

The tunnel finance is supposed to be "user pays" as I understand it.  As a
"user" paying at the rate of $500 plus per year I can assure you it feels that
way.  I use the term "user" somewhat loosely because I only use the bridge
for regular communting, but the benefits of the tunnel have so far surprised
even a skeptic like me.

I'll be the first to agree with anyone who argues that Sydney needs better
public transport, and with those who believe an additional harbour crossing
should have been somewhere else, but the claim that the community at large
is paying for the luxury of just a few is outrageous.
From: koay@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jin S. Koay)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: RE : EFTPOS
Date: 12 Oct 92 01:19:09 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

malcolm@nutmeg.cs.ntu.edu.au (Malcolm Caldwell) writes :

>   The PIN is not stored directly on the card. Instead it is generated
>   from other information on the card (like your account number and name)
>   using a keyed hashing technique, and the key for this is kept VERY
>   secret (although it is inside all those little boxes...). If you have
>   the capability to change the PIN, this is actually done by recording an
>   "offset" on the card. This offset is added (modulo 10000 for 4-digit
>   PINs) to what you typed in, then compared against the PIN as calculated
>   by the keyed hash. In other words, there is enough information on the
>   card for a machine "in the know" to verify a PIN, but definitely not
>   enough for you to read the card and figure out the PIN (you also need
>   to know the ATM network's secret key to achieve this).

so the keyed hashing technique is known throughout the world in order for
us credit card holders to withdraw cash from overseas ATMs? I am worried....
Xref: sparky aus.general:1835 aus.aarnet:973
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: keating - our hero!
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:09:03 +1000

Hi ina_pearce !

In a message of 08-Oct-92 you wrote:

 i> From: ina_pearce@actew.oz.au
 i> Organization: ACT Electricity & Water

 i> Keating announced yesterday in parliament that the recession finished
 i> months ago and his labour party saved Australia.

 i> I'd love to see him say that face to face to the millions of people who
 i> had jobs back in 1981 and now have no job and no prospect of ever
 i> getting a job.

    Well I feel qualified to comment here as I was one of the millions that you
are talking about and if I remember correctly the year 1981 wasn't anything
special... Let me see we had a federal liberal Government under Malcolm Fraser.
We had 10% unemployment and 15% inflation... Compare that with still 10.8%
unemployment and virtually zero inflation.. Then look at any country in europe
except Germany.. And look the rest of us in the eye and say that the current
Australian government hasn't done there Job to the best of there abilities. They
may not have done there best but they certainly have faired a lot better than
most other countries in the world.. What you also neglected to mention is that
the whole world has just gone through the biggest reccession since the 30's.
Read the whole world as not just Australia and I would say I'm glad we didn't
have a Liberal government at this time the only shame of it all is that now
things are starting to get better we will probably get voter backlash against
the government for something that was largely out of there control. Lets be
honest is it really there fault I think not..

 i> To the millions of families who back in 1981 owned two cars and their
 i> home who now have to go to the Salvos to get food for their kids.

My family didn't own 2 cars?

 i> To the millions of kids who back in 1981 had hopes and dreams of what
 i> they wanted to do when they grew up. Who now are either wasting their

I was Unemployed for 6 months in 1981 I haven't been unemployed since..

 i> time studying at university because there's no prospect of getting a
 i> job when they finish; or who decided to settle down and got married and

When I left school it wasn't worth staying on to go to university as there just
weren't any opportunities available to anyone except the top level.


 i> what a hero! 

He sounds a bigger hero than you :-)


         --==<< Cheers! Greg >>==--
 * Origin: The Hidden Garden (3:635/547.2)
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: lee@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Lee Naish)
Subject: Re: New Victorian Premier/result using PR
Organization: Department of Computer Sci, University of Melbourne
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 01:42:55 GMT

In article <isaac.718500907@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:
>In countries where they have PR there is an equal reformist group which
>wants to shut out the smaller parties because it makes for horrible
>coalitions that stymie effective government.

Even in the system we use its possible to have horrible coalitions :-).
Many countries have forms of PR in parties with very little support will
not get members elected (the PRSA advocates such a system).  In
contrast, Israel has a single electorate for the whole country and a
candidate needs less than 1% of the vote to be elected.  This has been
the source of some problems.

>No system is `better.'

I think the Israeli system is better than that used in Hitler's Germany,
but you are entitled to your opinion (under our present system).

>Let's get back to work.

Hit the space bar.

	lee
Newsgroups: aus.general
From: summer@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Mark Summerfield)
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 22:28:59 GMT

s924683@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (CHANDANA PERERA) writes:

>  Well I have been told by the engineers who design the ATM mechines and the
>  PIN generation mechines that if you guess or generate the PIN using 
>  known data (ie Account Num, Name), U will have a proberbility of
>  around 1/2^256 (ie one in 2 to the power of 256) of getting it right.

This is patently untrue -- there are only 10000 possible PINs, so even by
the most lame, unintelligent of algorithms your probability of getting
the PIN right can be no worse than 1/10000.  To get the performance you
describe, you need an algorithm which, for whatever reason, is guaranteed
to get the *wrong* PIN almost all the time (only getting it right by
sheer misfortune about one time in 2^242 :-)

Mark.
          --------------------------------------------------------
              Mark Summerfield,  Photonics Research Laboratory
Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, University of Melbourne  
                ACSnet[AARN/Internet]: summer@ee.mu.oz[.au] 
          --------------------------------------------------------
   "This terminal is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone
    to meet its maker. This is a late terminal. It's a stiff. Bereft of
     life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the bench, it
      would be pushing up the daisies. It's run down the curtain and
            joined the choir invisible. This is an X-Terminal!"
From: gja@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Grenville Armitage)
Newsgroups: aus.general
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:26:01 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Basket Weavers, Inc.

In article <15301@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> s924683@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU ( Chandi ) writes:
>>In <15042@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> s924683@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (CHANDANA PERERA) writes:
>
>>>  PIN generation mechines that if you guess or generate the PIN using 
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>  known data (ie Account Num, Name), U will have a proberbility of
>>>  around 1/2^256 (ie one in 2 to the power of 256) of getting it right.

	[..]

>        (3)  I was talking about generating the PIN using info... not guessing
                                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	     I was trying to say... generating the PIN has almost IMPOSIBLE
>	     odds against it

I'm having trouble trying to figure out exactly what you think you're
describing here.

gja
Xref: sparky aus.general:1888 aus.politics:1516
From: taso@munnari.OZ.AU (Taso Hatzi)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.politics
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Date: 13 Oct 1992 22:02:11 +1000
Organization: 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Gregory N. Bond (gnb@duke.bby.com.au) wrote:
: 
: Gross margin is the markup from wholesale price to retail price, and
: 10-20% for the low end, up to almost infinity for boutique, is typical.
: 
The commonly used terms are Markup and GP (Gross Profit). 

Markup is what the cost price is multiplied by the get the sell 
price. Eg. a markup of 50% on a cost price of $1 dollar gives a 
sell price of $1.50.

GP is how much profit you make on a sale. Eg. if you make 50 cents
profit on a sale of $1.50, your GP is is 33.33%

The higher the markup the closer the GP gets to 100%.
Xref: sparky aus.general:1842 aus.aarnet:980
From: david@cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson)
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.aarnet
Subject: Re: EFTPOS
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:21:01 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia

ivan@atlas.abccomp.oz.au (Ivan) writes:
>pictures of people tapping in their PINs. When the transaction was done and
>victim had left, crook trundles across the road and retrieves discarded
>transaction record from the "Please be tidy for Australia" bin on every ATM.
>This gives him the account number, so he can encode a new card and voila! 

I take it that this is why the building society transaction records only have
the first 6 and the last 3 digits of your account number printed on them. And
yes, I always take my slip with me rather than use the usually overflowing
ATM bin.
-- 
David Wilson				(042) 21 3802 voice, (042) 21 3262 fax
Dept Comp Sci, Uni of Wollongong	david@cs.uow.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.general,aus.politics