From: Rannou@info.polymtl.ca (Patrick Rannou)
Subject: Re: The illogic of draining levels
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Canada
	<COVIN.92Aug19134547@despair.cs.uchicago.edu>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 09:04:42 GMT

In article <COVIN.92Aug19134547@despair.cs.uchicago.edu> covin@tartarus.uchicago.edu (David Covin) writes:


      Has anyone else ever thought that the ability of undead (and certain other
      creatures) to drain experience levels just didn't make any sense?  I could see
      perhaps some creature with the special ability to drain your memory and skills,
      but I don't see undead as doing that, especially when the ability is called
      energy draining. 

   Well, yes and no.  Levels in (A)D&D don't make sense, so ... Yes, the
   idea that the critter is actually making you *forget* things seems
   odd, but I have no problem with certain undead creatures, like
   Tolkien's ring-wraiths, actually draining power and life-force, and
   levels are power in (A)D&D.  Your solution of having them drain
   strength and h.p. is a good one, though.

I view "level" as lifeforce power, something like that. When an undead hits
you, you don't lose XPs/memory at all in my campaign. You have instead your
"lifeforce" disrupted/shredded, so you FUNCTION and FEEL as if you were one
level lower. You still keep your XPs and can still go up a level. It's just
that if you've been drained for 3 "levels", whatever level you're in now
will get you that level minus 3 in everything like to hit, hit dices,
number of spells, etc... Also, since I consider that a PC lose hit points
starting from it's highest level, it's very rare that a PC lose hit points
from the drain. The drain affects the MAXIMUM hit points you have, not your
actual hit points. Remember that the damage is done to your lifeforce (i.e.
POTENTIAL) and not to the body (ACTUAL hit points). Of course, many undeads
ALSO give slashing damage at the same time.

In effect, a 5th level fighter drained two times is now a 5th level fighter
"cursed" to act like a 3rd level fighter. If he was at minus one XP to get
to 6th level, just after he (eventually) kill the undead nasty, he now has
enough XP) to go up a level. If he them goes see a master, he'll become
after training a 6th level fighter "cursed" to act like a 4th level one,
until a restoration is used...

Also, I give a saving thorw VS DEATH MAGIC vs the draining effect, so that
every hit ISN'T a draining one.  natural 20 can't be saved against, tough.
To prevent high-level PC to always shrug off draining by powerful undead,
or mid/low level PCs to too easily vanquish a powerful undead, I make the
save with a malus corresponding to the "power level" of the undead. Low
power undead have 0 (pure plain roll). Other have frfom 1 to 3. Vampires
and the like have 4 or 5, and you get to roll twice since they drain two
"levels" in one shot.

I've found out this make undead still very dangerous, but they are now much
more manageable. Also a single restoration brings the PC back completely.
No such thing as a "cast it once per level drained" thing.

Since the PC keep all his XPs, players whine less when they got drained.
They know they can keep their PC that way for years and not lose their
experience. Our 5th level fighter could decide to wait until level say 10 to
get restoration of his 2 drained levels, thus making him go directly from
"operating" level 8 to operating level 10... And thus "name" level.

   The major problems I have with level-draining undead are: 
      1) game balance.  Two wights can obliterate a mid-to-high-level
   party if they get a few lucky rolls.  I *like* undead, but I don't
   like punishing my players that severely on a regular basis.

Yup. I used one measly wigth on a 4th level party once. After the fight,
the PC who fled swore to never return to that cemetary, not with these 4
extras wights that now populate it...

If i'd have used the rules I use now, the whole party would have survived
for sure (tough not unscathed).

      2) frequency.  Any moderately powerful undead critter can drain at
   least one level per hit-- it's the trademark ability of all D&D
   undead.  As I said, I like undead, and don't like the fact that
   critters that are so weak the party could easily obliterate them are
   also so strong the party will throw everything they have at them, and
   are screwed if they get ambushed.

Yup too. EVERY undead worth his salt can drain. Ack! When you like undeads,
that means you simply CAN'T use them too often if you want the party to
survive...

      3) vampires.  Because level-draining is the trademark ability of
   all D&D undead, vampires have to drain levels, or they couldn't be
   powerful undead.  Indeed, they have to drain 2 levels per hit.  Which
   means that no vampire would ever bother to go through the convoluted
   courtship/stalkings of Dracula or Nosferatu-- indeed, no vampire
   *could*.  Merely shaking hands with a dinner guest will kill the poor
   sap if he's not an experienced adventurer; and will announce your
   nature for all the world to see in any case.

Huh... I'd think that shaking hands ISN'T an attack. Personnally, I managed
to reduce undead strength by saying that ONLY bites or slash attacks can
drain... Vampires can drain ONLY by biting...

   Sneaking in repeatedly
   to nibble on Lucy and Mina Harker's tender necks?  Forget it!  Either
   will crumple instantly at your touch, and rise again undead before the
   night is out.  For a GM who likes vampires, this is no fun at all; and
   not at all in keeping with the vampires of literature.

Yup again. THat's something I really hate about D&D: They put monsters into
a "box" and assume that we must use them the way they want us to, not the
way it would really be cool to!

   Though I didn't do this in the last game I ran, which was quite a
   while ago, I rather like the idea of 1) changing level-draining to
   just drain h.p., strength, and constitution; 2) restricting
   level-draining abilities to wraiths and wights; and 3) making up
   something else entirely for vampires (and spectres).

I'll try youir ideas, because somehow I don't like 0-level humans to fall
like leaves in front of a wight's attacks... (slish slash hit - auto kill...)


See ya.

Pat.
--
/---------------------------\
| Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
| Rannou@info.polymtl.ca    |
\---------------------------/

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd