HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:05:48 GMT

Eric writes about holding the bad person at gun point:
 >I know the answer for law enforcement whichis "No. You can't shoot someone for
 >not following your verbal commands".  If a subject refuses to prone out for me
 >and I have him at gun point, I can't shoot him.  What I would suggest is to
 >continue to give the verbal commands until he either complys or the cavalry
 >arrives.   Time is probably going to be on your side, there is no reason to do
 >anything stupid like trying to force him to the ground and end up having to
 >fight him.  

I was wondering...  there is no guarantee that the perp will be reasonable,
but you DO have its attention.  Before repeating verbal commands, or
interspersed with verbal commands, do you think it might sometimes be
helpful to explain that it would be better for them that they do what you
ask and that it might actually save them from being shot if they move a
little too fast or lose their balance?

I am wondering whether police or terrorist psycologists have any researched
professional opinions on this.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:24 GMT
Organization: EDS Research, Albuquerque, NM

#From article <1992Nov6.172749.29798@unislc.uucp> from unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
##From article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, by rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz):
## 
## After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take my
## Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
## things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)
## 
## rtaraz
## 
# 
#Computer terminals ought to be fun.
# 
#2 liter pop bottles full of water are fun.
#Old pumpkins, squash, etc are great fun, too.

Those 2 liter pop bottles don't always give the effect you might wish for.
On one occasion We took one out and set it up ~50 yards away. I then proceeded
to plink at it with a 9mm. no luck alhough I nicked it once. But I was 
determined to see the thing explode so I took out a swedish mauser and let off
about 10 rounds. no luck, But the gun was new and not really sighted in. (it
was not to see and dust fly up though. Oh well.) now I was desparate. I take
out a Weatherby .270 with a Leopold scope and let off about a half a dozen
rounds of nosler ballistic tips. Still no luck. Well I must have jared the 
scope loose last deer season. So my friend takes out an HK 45 and finally breaks
the thing in 2. (No he didn`t do it on the 1st shot. but whose counting). 
Then it comes to be time to set up some more targets. I pick up the pieces of 
the  bottle and there is a nice 2" pattern with ~15 holes it it. I guess those
rifle bullets were slicing through the plastic and water like, well water. 
Oh well. . .


 *****************************************************************************
* #include <std/disclaimers.h>      *                  ___                    *
* (load "/usr/lisp/denials.lsp")    *       / _/    / (       Kevin Sedota    *
* COPY CPYWRITE IN COPYLIB          *      /<      /   \                      *
* compile("/usr/prolog/excuses.pl").*     /  \  /_/  ___)       kjs@edsr      *
* %INCLUDE CAVEATS                  *                                         *
* Your milage may vary.             *                                         *
*          A world which requires disclaimers has too many lawyers.           *
 *****************************************************************************
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:29 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <Yf0J85W00iV2I3vkwj@andrew.cmu.edu> se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) writes:
##Well, the 'perp' (at about 5 ft 'range' from you) whips out a card from
##his back pocket which states:  "Please forgive me, I am deaf and cannot
##understand what you are saying.  Can you write it down please?".

#Come on now!  Not terrbily realistic....

Some of the other shoot/don't shoot situations are worse: A friend
of mine edited one of those videos once: His favorite was the
man with a _huge_ afro, who put his hand up and on his head, then
pulled a derringer out of his hair. After the sequence, the video
had little messages about what the police trainee should learn 
from the hypothetical. In this case, the message was, "There is
nothing you could have done." Now _that_ is unrealistic...

                                          Frank Crary
                                          CU Boulder
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: GLOCK 17L
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: cherokee.199211101847.AA02378
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

I'd like to hear some comments and/or review on the GLOCK 17L.
Has anyone used it for serious competition? Has anyone shot
both the GLOCK 17 and 17L? Any comments on the comparison? Thanks.

An article I read somewhere suggested to put a bicycle tire tube on the
grip of GLOCKs. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

It seems to be a good idea to buy all the guns I want before '93.

Adios,
David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: carrying guns for self-defense
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:35 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <92312.004845U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> U28037%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Jason Kratz) writes:
#Do you people all have licenses to legally carry
#guns or do you do it illegally? 

 Jason;

 Do you really expect anyone to tell you that he carries illegally?
Especially when you might be a BATF agent with a creative new idea for
improving his arrest statistics?

 Surveys have shown that around 5% of all adults routinely carry guns for
self-protection. In jurisdictions where carry permits are available only
to the wealthy and well-connected, the bulk of this carrying is illegal.
In jurisdictions where carry permits are available (such as Washington
State), the same activity is done legally. Studies have also shown that
people who can qualify for legal concealed carry (by reaching age 21 with
no felony record, no drug or alcolhol abuse record, no mental health
record) almost never abuse the privilege. The best recent book on this
subject is "Point Blank, Guns and Violence in America" by Gary Kleck, (c)
1991, Aldine de Gruyter, New York.

						Matt Moore
						John Fluke Mfg. Co.
						standard disclaimers apply
From: gt5060b@prism.gatech.edu (GARY MICHAEL BUTLER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Large Caliber Recoil List Needed
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:37:58 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology



My question is about recoil. I have always been curious about the
different levels of recoil (felt) of calibers that I have never fired. 
If one uses a .30-06 or .270 as a base-line of 100, what is the level 
of felt recoil of a .7mm & 8mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag & the 
.375 H&H ? What about the corresponding Weatherby loads (.300, .340 
& .378 ) ? Just for info, if you know, what about the .458 Win Mag, 
and .460 Weatherby Mag also ?

Thanks for your time and consideration. I am sure that someone out there
has experience with all of these loads.




-- 
BUTLER,GARY MICHAEL
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:     ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt5060b
Internet: gt5060b@prism.gatech.edu
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:21:31 GMT


I read (and sometimes write) this newsgroup since several years. I have
always been impressed by the quality of most of the discussion arising here.
IMHO, the content of this newsgroups is impressively good and I don't want
to see this change.

I also appreciate a lot our current moderator, who does both an efficient
and discrete job. IMHO, he has to be thanked a lot for that. In addition,
his funny comments add some spice to the group.

I have stopped to read t.p.g since several years too. It is simply a 
collection of insults and monologs and I don't want that this group get
the same fate.

I also believe that one of the reason of the quality of this newsgroup,
in addition to the one of the contributors, is the fact that it is
moderated. That's why I want to keep it moderated.

Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  |     or: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
MA-Ecublens                               | Standard Disclaimer
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What was the Steyr GB?
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:17 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

wasn't that the big overly square boat-anchor looking thing?
9mm pistol that was THE ugliest thing i have ever seen.
am i thinking of the wrong thing here?
From: malodah@pbhyf.pacbell.com (Martin A. Lodahl)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns?
Date: 7 Nov 92 00:34:38 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <25499@sybase.sybase.com> mtxinu!sybase!joe@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Joseph Weinstein) writes:

#This is the idle curiosity of a fringe gun fan but
#committed home-defender:
#
#Why are there no highly reliable semi-auto shotguns
#for defence?

Well, I for one don't agree that there aren't.  Of the thousands
of shells I've put through my Remington 1100, only many-times-reloaded
*paper* shells have had any sort of feed problem, and then only on
very wet days.  I wouldn't hesitate to use it for defense, especially
with factory loads in plastic hulls.

	- Martin
-- 
= Martin A. Lodahl    [DoD, AHA, NRA]  Systems Analyst, Pacific*Bell =
= malodah@PacBell.COM		Sacramento, CA, USA     916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!!  8-)} =
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:26:46 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <01GR2IUBAMI8005AHM@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU> apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
## 
## I was wondering...  there is no guarantee that the perp will be reasonable,
## but you DO have its attention.  Before repeating verbal commands, or
## interspersed with verbal commands, do you think it might sometimes be
## helpful to explain that it would be better for them that they do what you
## ask and that it might actually save them from being shot if they move a
## little too fast or lose their balance?
#
#Sounds reasonable to me.  If things are at a standoff explaining to this person
#what the situation is and what might happen might work.   The worst that would
#happen is that the suspect would continue ignoreing you.

Just wanted to interject on this subject.  A self-defense instructor
who I happen to respect a great deal covered this.  
As soon as the perp stops coming at you, you need to, in your best
you're going to die motherfucker if you don't do exactly what I say
voice, say "ON THE FLOOR NOW (ASSHOLE)!" (asshole optional), if they 
don't follow your instructions immediately, you need to more
forcefully say,  "I SAID DO IT NOW!"  Repeat as needed.  Most criminals
who are rational enough to surrender will obey you if delivered
properly.  What was stressed is how it was said.  You should practice
it beforehand, and when you think you have it right, practice on a
willing friend.  If it doesn't have them believing you, then you need
to practice some more.  This, like anything else you do, will not
necessarily work in all cases, but will give you an edge should you
ever have to deal with capturing a perp.  Do not engage in
conversation with a perp, as this can give you a couple of
disadvantages.   It reduces your concentration
on the perp, if he makes a sudden move it takes precious additional
time to refocus.  It also may be that he has a friend in the house or
area and he's trying to distract you while his friend takes you from
behind.  It also tends to reduce his confidence that you will indeed
shoot him if he makes a wrong move.




-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Christopher L Frame)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AR15 Assembly by NESARD
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:46 GMT
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab



	Anyone know if NESARD sells their AR15 kit with the barrel
attached and properly headspaced to the upper receiver?  If they don't
how difficult is it to properly headspace the AR15 kit?

Christopher Frame CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Recommendations for Ladies' Gun Needed
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:25 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.


I was waiting for someone else to comment on this, but I haven't seen
anyone do so.

In article <1992Oct26.185826.8060@icd.ab.com> kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
#A woman I work with has asked for advice wrt purchasing a self-
#protection firearm.  This gun will be used mostly for home protection,
#but may on occasion be carried (probably in a purse), so concealibility
#is a consideration.
#...
#This is *NOT* a gun that's going to get 200 rounds put through it every 
#weekend -  She'll probably shoot it a bit when she first buys it just 
#to learn how to use it, and then it will sit around "just in case".

Isn't this a rather foolish approach to gun ownership?  Shouldn't this
woman at least be cautioned about the importance of staying in practice
with a gun, especially if she's going to carry it?  Maybe I'm
over-reacting, but it seemed to me that in the concern over technical
aspects of particular guns, no one mentioned that the skill of the
shooter is the most important factor, or that carrying (or even owning)
a gun that one is not profficient in using is dangerous, both to one's
self and to innocent bystanders.

I apologize if someone else already said this (I might have missed
something), but I felt I had to bring this up.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese 7.62 x39 Rounds
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:06:20 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

Well, as the person who started this by asking how to tell ... I'm a
bit sorry I asked!  The right answer seems to be 'chop the end off
with some cutters and see'!

I did that ...

In article <1992Nov9.040444.6201@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:

#Pretty much the case.  I sectioned a few rounds that I had in the garage
#and found the following:
#
#source           case                     jacket    core
#unknown          br lacquer 71 over 88    copper    lead
#E. German        steel 04 over 65         steel     steel
#Yellow Norinco   brass color 311 over 91  steel     steel
#China Sports     copper wash 71 over 91   steel     lead

...
#So far as I know none of the currently imported ammo in
#7.62x39 is steel core ammo.  I wasn't aware that it was steel jacketed
#still...

Well, the stuff I bought a month or so ago is 'steel' core.  I don't
know when it was imported but I got it from a volume discount place
(Tri City Sporting Goods in Freemont), so I don't think it sat on the
shelf long.

Strangely enough, I used the 'dikes on the bullet will stop on a steel core'
technique to find that I had 'steel' core... Then double checked with a
magnet... BOY was I surprised when the jacket was attracted to the 
magnet, but the 'steel' core was NOT!

Now I'm real confused....  It is some kind of Chinese round, with a copper
wash color case and bullet jacket, both of them steel, with a little lead
in the bullet encasing a very hard penetrator of something that isn't
attracted to a magnet.  Head stamp 9121 over 73. Claimed non-corrosive.

Sheesh ... Here I thought I was just getting a cheep plinker and find
out I've got a crate of AP rounds! (But I'm not complaining, though!! ;-)  

Guess I'll have one 'sacraficial round' from each case I buy ... just
so I know what I'm shooting ...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.


Xref: sparky rec.guns:15825 misc.headlines:7029
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,misc.headlines
Subject: Deer hunting accident with shotgun?
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:21:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: amarna.13NOV199207571679
Followup-To: misc.headlines
Organization: Dept. of Independence

Are deer typically hunted with a shotgun? A story in 
the NY Times on Thursday reported that a deer hunter
accidentally killed a jogger with "a single blast"
from a shotgun. How close would you typically have to
be from a person to shoot them dead with a shotgun?
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A "must" for the reloading bench
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:43 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Nov2.170659.3067@phx.mcd.mot.com> mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call) writes:
#I agree with emphasis on safety.  I do question the safety of the kinetic
#pullers.  Anyone out there have any experiences with accidental detonation of
#primers while using kinetic pullers?

An article in _American Rifleman_ Q&A section a couple of years
described the attempts by a reader at breaking apart some .30-06
rounds that didn't go off, and was accompanied by a photograph of the
remains of the inertial puller that he'd used.  Seems that a dented
primer tends to be just a *wee* bit sensitive...

I have one, and use it, but never with BP or with a dented primer.  We
have burn cans at the range for rounds with dented primers (and
dropped .22 rimfire).

At that time I was going to see if the "blow out" panel in the latest
inertial pullers would really blow out, but the project didn't get
close enought to completion.  (However the AP work is coming along,
with a source of 2 WWII AP calibers, and the offer of a chronograph).

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock (& lock)
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:27:12 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <MeyJZeG00iUyQ2bQcx@andrew.cmu.edu> se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) writes:
#That being said, I've heard contradictory opinions reagarding the
#"safety" on the Glock (model 17,19 etc). A rec.guns person (who has been
#informative in the past) was of the opinion that the Glock was the best
#of both worlds with SA, the trigger mounted safety, and the relatively
#heavy pull.  A guy at the gun store on the other hand opined that
#Glock's been pulling the wool over everyones eyes and that a SA withough
#a REAL safety was stupid.

I bought my Glock only last week. One thing I noticed was the
variation in the trigger pull: The one I looked at a few weeks before
and the one I bought had a noticeably different trigger pull. The
one, I definitely wouldn't consider very safe to carry, but the other 
(fortunately the one I got...) has seems to have a harder pull...

#I shoot a Glock 17 at the range yesterday and loved it.  It feels right
#and looks great.

Actually, the recoil supprised me: It felt greater than that
of my .357. I suspect this is a factor of the gun's light weight...

#Also, regarding Glock quality.  The guy at the range said that the gun
#had been "abused."  This was as explanation for why the slide wouldn't
#stay open after the last shot, and would sometimes slam shut without the
#release lever being pushed.  Any experiences out there with excessive
#wear and tear?

When I opened the box, the springs (on the slide and magazine release,
sepecifically) seemed very stiff. After only ~200 rounds, they seem
to have loosened up a fair amount. (Initially, I couldn't, for 
example, release the slide without using both hands... Now, the 
slide will release, as it should, from just my right thumb.) I
_hope_ this is just some "breaking in" effect, and not evidence
of a quality problem... I also have had one jam, on the tenth shot
through the gun: The spent case didn't eject properly... Again, I
hope this is a "braking in" problem... (By the way, my thanks to everyone 
who e-mailed me the retail costs on Glock 17's: It helped alot in
negotiating a good price...)


                                                      Frank Crary
                                                      CU Boulder
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need info on small .25 semi-auto handgun
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:57:49 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Nov10.175048.16562@netcom.com>, mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell) writes:
# I am looking for an inexpensive semi-automatic handgun.  I think a small
# .25 handgun would do.  Does anyone have any recommendations or comments
# on various brands?  Any information would be appreciated.
# 
# Michael

It is conventional wisdom in gun enthusiast circles that a .25
handgun is a waste of time for self-defense.  It is certainly
true that this .25 ACP is very low on the list of defensive
rounds.  Yet, a recent incident here in the Bay Area demonstrates
that properly employed, .25 ACP can save your life.  A man on
a bicycle was accosted by three robbers one evening a couple of weeks
ago.  He responded to their threats with a .25 ACP.  One robber
was shot in the heart, and died.  Another was injured.  The third
ran.

The victim, not surprisingly, won't come forward to help the
police, out of fear of retaliation by the survivors, or from
fear of prosecution.

Now, as to brands: I am very pleased with an American Arms
PX-22 that I have.  The same gun is sold in .25 ACP as well.
Even with .22 LR, the PX-22 is completely reliable, and 
reasonably accurate for such a tiny gun.  (It's about the size
of a Walther PPK, and is manufactured under license from Erma
Werke).


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Racism is "class struggle" applied to ethnicity.
From: K.Lee@lut.ac.uk (Kwan-Lap Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: shooting training
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:25:14 GMT

I am looking for serious pistol and rifle training for beginners.

My main interests are in pistol and long range rifle shooting (800yds)
I am looking for a good training school actually runs courses of the 
kind I want.

Does anybody know any training school run the kind of training I want
except API (American Pistol Institute).  I've heard the name Chapman
academy, in Missouri.  Does anybody know its address and something about
it?

Many Thanks


Victor Lee
K.LEE@lut.ac.uk