From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 20:06:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <gebuCIO00iUy41ffEP@andrew.cmu.edu>

9208.30 e.v.  [I'm out of town for 1 week starting today]


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Shawn Clayton Knight writes:

Part of my understanding of Thelema is that those who might consider
ourselves Thelemites (like myself) are willing to accept the
responsibilities of doing our Will.  


Response:

This is exactly my concept of it also.


Shawn:

Thus, if we "ain't getting it
right" we are prepared to deal with the consequences.  Compare this with
someone in an exclusively Christian moral framework who has a concept of
Hell.  Now this person may believe for whatever reason that they do not
have "God's grace."  (Quotes indicate that my concept of God's grace is
not quite the same.  I am most emphatically NOT flaming Christianity.) 
If s/he does not have this "grace" then s/he may believe that s/he will
be punished for hir actions in "Hell".  This is not usually considered
acceptable.  The person is not willing to accept the Karmic consequences
of hir actions (in most cases).


Response:

In my understanding 'karma' doesn't enter into either Christianity (which
posits the Will of God to contend with) or Thelema, which identifies the
Will of God with the individual will, especially not the 'karma' which 
seems to mean a 'cosmic mechanism of morality'.

Any talk about 'karmic responsibilities' flies in the face of all
competent writings I've seen regarding Thelemic ethics (of which there are 
relatively few).


Shawn:

Christians often seem to forget that Christ had a way of saying "Go, and
sin no more."  They believe that they have achieved grace, and then
promptly go on "sinning" anyhow (because God's not gonna punish them
now!)  They don't need to take responsibility because "God forgives
them".


Response:

This is practically correct.  Sin involves intentional wickedness.  Once
the Christian sees that intentional wickedness is evil, and that Christ
and God won't PUNISH them, they'll just show them what it's like
to be on the RECEIVING end, then they do tend to 'sin no more'.  Forgiveness
isn't a license to harm, it is a divine Grace.  God will not hold our
errors against us.


Shawn:

A thelemite, however, IMO, tries not to do what s/he considers wrong,
but when s/he messes up, or was incorrect about "right and wrong", s/he
is willing to answer for the wrong, rather than recoursing to "God's
forgiveness."


Response:

My concept of Thelema is a bit different than the above.  The Thelemite
recognizes no 'right and wrong' OTHER than hir own feelings, and there
is no 'answering' involved except the acceptance of any consequences of
hir actions which may come to pass.  If these consequences turn out to
be overly painful, she will take this into account when faced with
similar circumstances in the future.

I think that Thelema and Christianity are not at odds.  The typical
'Christian' does not identify the individual and divine wills, and THIS,
more than any other thing, keeps them from Thelema.  I consider myself
both Christian AND Thelemite, to the extent that these terms are meaningful,
and, since I accept my will as the Will of God, understand that 'God's
forgiveness' is a very important part of my life.  If I don't forgive
myself (i.e. let go of the past and not make myself pay for errors in
addition to that which I've already reaped), then I will create for myself
a living hell.


Shawn:

Again:  this is not a flame of Christianity or those who responsibly and
intelligently uphold its teachings.


Response:

It is nice to see this attitude.  Thanks.


Invoke me under my stars.  Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Frater (I) Nigris (666)