From: 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( )
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 03:48:22 GMT

In <1992Apr12.022606.28258@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>In article <1992Apr11.234752.671@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
>>In <204766@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>>
>>>An even worse example if Alfredo Griffin, who played 140 games at shortstop
>>>in 1984 for a team that had Tony Fernandez.  Fernandez was only 21, but he
>>
>>Griffin played 6 years in TO, 3 in OAK and 4 in LA.  Toronto, a defending
>>champion, just reacquired him.  These 3 organizations are 3 of the most
>>successful in the game.  Are you implying that they don't know what they
>>are doing?

>Yes.  

>On the other hand, what can you say of Cleveland, who let go of him
>after three years in order to hold onto the immortal Tom Veryzer?

Well I guess that tells you a bit about why cleveland hasn't shared
the success of TO/OAK/LA

In 3 years at cleveland he had a total of 49 at bats...

>btw, acquiring Griffin turned Toronto from a 59-game winner into a
>53-game winner.  Then 57, 57 (projected from stike-year pct.), 78, 89,
>89.  The last year was 1984.  Then they traded him and won three
>division titles in seven years, and came within a game of a fourth.

>They didn't improve because of Griffin.  They became winners by adding
>Upshaw, Barfield, Mulliniks, Cliff Johnson, and -- Tony Fernandez. 

What are you saying?  That they steadily improved with Griffin in spite of 
him?

>Oakland, too, got rid of Griffin, and won three pennants -- IN A ROW.
>LA won one pennant in his four years there: the year they only played
>him part-time.  

Oakland got rid of him to make way for Weiss who was a hot-shot rookie.

in 88 griffin started 93 games and had 316 at bats.  he was their
number one SS. He started every game in the NLCS and the world series.

Who knows?  maybe griffin was the reason LA beat OAKLAND that year...

>Tell me again about the "success..."

>>  No, I think the problem might be found in your one-dimensional
>>analysis of a player's worth.

>He can't hit for power.  He can't hit for average.  He can't walk.  He
>fields adequately at best.  His only adequate year at the plate was in
>the 1970's.  That's FIVE dimensions right there: four skills and his
>age.  I bet he can't pitch very well, either, over the long haul.

of course his stats stink! but there must be a reason he has stayed in
the majors all these years...that reason is the "other dimension" - the
dimension that can't be measured statistically.

>>Alfredo Griffin is reported to be a really nice guy, a positive influence
>>on the bench, in the clubhouse and on the field - if not at the plate.

>Bench and clubhouse, fine.  Field -- perhaps he's better than most
>Dodger fielders; I mean, we're talking about the Bill Russell Memorial
>Infield, here.  But think how much MORE effective he'd be if they didn't
>play him at all, and he didn't screw up so many innings with his
>ineptitude at the plate, and just spread his niceness all over the
>clubhouse and let somebody else on the roster.  He's so nice the Dodgers
>unhitched him the moment Offerman was ready.

ALL players get released when someone else comes along.  

>>Making him the butt of your little statistical jokes shows a complete
>>lack of respect for a man who commands a lot more respect from his peers
>>than Tony Fernandez.  Ask the players if he made a "measurable" contribution.

>Tell me about 1987 again.  Fernandez' injury cost them the pennant.
>Would Griffin have helped?  Would they have been CLOSE to a pennant iwth
>Griffin in there?  How many players said, "gee, if we only still had
>Griffin."  

manny lee filled in OK.  Ernie whitt's injury might have been more costly.
Maybe if they had griffin the Blew Jays wouldn't have choked...

>And tell me: which of his peers are you talking about?  Which ones do
>you know ?  Which ones have you talked to?  

>Or do you just read what the sportswriters, who are basically paid to be
>boosters, write in the Toronto papers?  

Yes I read the Toronto papers.  Toronto, with 3 major dailies, is the most
competitive newspaper market in North America.  Writers for the Globe and
Mail cannot be accused of "boosting" anybody.  It's usually the opposite.
The same reporters that "boosted" Griffin, also shit on Fernandez.

Tony would take himself out of games because he didn't feel like playing.
not an exaggeration.  once he even gapped an at-bat.  

>Roger

-- 
roger l. maynard                              
91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca             
Sudbury Ont.                                
Canada                                     
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball