From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 17 Nov 92 11:00:53 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov16.231942.7736@wuecl.wustl.edu>, by ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis):
> One of the worst features of such discussions, however, is that they give
> the chance to third-party netters who wish to discuss and argue for
> the sake of the argument (to put it simply: to have fun!) to jump
> in and start teasing one or the other party.
> these third-party netter who don't give a sh*t for the issue really, 

Actually some of us do care about human suffering especially when it's
caused by pointless posturing. Those who cause this ought to be forced
to give an account of themselves.

> One such case is, of course, Andy Fear (I won't say any other names - he is
> not the only one however!).  

Fame at last! I wonder though if this is a veiled way of saying that
only Greeks are allowed to have views on the Macedonia issue - after all
that way, especially when Greeks who disagree appear to be locked up, we
can pretend there's a consensus and got on with behaving ludicrously
with a clean conscience. 

> Andy, for example,  goes around teasing
>  the greeks on whatever "national issue" they are - or
> could possibly be - sensitive. I have seen him arguing

Hmmm let's see

> - that there are truly two countries in Cyprus.

I own up I did say this that's because there are - the Republic of
Cyprus and the Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus.  This is a fact you
might not like it, but then reality is like that sometimes

> - that the turkish invasion of the island was justified because:
> - the greeks were ready to massacre the turkish population.

Well I doubt if Sampson and the Greek fascists were going to give them
cups of tea...

> - that Turkey is justified in about everything it has done or doing
>   (incl. the landing force  "facing" the Aegean islands).

Just want a scrap of evidence that Turkey has a plan to invade Greece or
even a reason why it'd want to do so.

> - that modern Slavomacedonia is the continuation of ancient Macedonia.
I've never said that and would attack anyone who did, but oddly no-one
seems to take this position, say Greeks who say other people do, but
then can't come up with any examples.

> - that the greeks oppress their "Macedonian" minority.

Not sure I've said much about this, though it is an undeniable fact that
Macedonian Greeks have recently lost their jobs because they've dared to
speech out against the Greek government line and that a massive renaming of
villages occured in a form of cultural ethnic cleansing in the 1920s. 

> - that the greeks oppress their turkish minority.

Helsinki Watch, a leading human rights group said this not me.

> - that there is no freedom of expression in Greece.

Accusing people of treason for circulating a pamphlet which criticises
the government doesn't seem a good sign does it? I wonder what the Greek
government's reaction would be if the Macedonian government did this?

> - that everything the slavomacedonians do or claim is OK.

Think I might have mentioned I didn't think their flag was such a good
idea... Not all inhabitants of Macedonia are Slavs BTW hence my
objection to that tag. 

> - that the ancient Macedonians were not greeks, were not speaking greek,
etc.

Well they weren't and they didn't...
> 
> and other interesting stuff...

Let's talk about Herodotus again then....

> 
> For the last mentioned issue, Andy uses his knowledge of ancient history
> (which is anyway his topic of studies) to sound more sophisticated and
> often throws names and references that supposedly support his "views". 
> And after his cool arguments he mentions that "anyway this has nothing
> to do with recognition of Slavomacedonia" [OK, fine, then why start this
> discussion at all ??!]. 

I didn't.  It's the Greek side of the argument that drag psuedohistory
into the picture, you might well think this is to buttress a hopeless
case with specious data.  They then get upset when people point out
their 'proofs' don't work.  I wish we could leave ancient history alone
or talk about it properly, you may find this hard to believe but that's
how I came to this bulletin board in the first place.  However when I
see my subject abused for modern political ends I'm not going to stand
by and do nothing. 

> 
> Once more: I URGE you, the readers, in case you are interested, to go,
> read and find out for yourselves (there are plenty of libraries around us!).
> Go and read, if you want, about the Macedonian problem that goes on for
> decades in the Balkans; what is the whole story about; who claims what.
> Go and read, if you want, about the ancient Macedonians. See the prevailing
> scientific views and, even more, see the REASONS (i.e., artifacts, historical
> accounts) for these views, so that you can judge for yourselves.

Now that I endorse entirely
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe