From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:49:11 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23052@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> to: Josh Backon
>
>  JB> HUH ????? Utter nonsense !!! If you show me two sets of
>  JB> national identity cards of Israeli citizens (two different
>  JB> cards), I'll eat my hat ! Kindly show me "two sets" of
>  JB> identity cards. Pray tell me Wayne, how do they differ in
>  JB> dimension or color ? I assure you Wayne that you couldn't
>  JB> tell apart *my* identity card from that of my Arab student
>  JB> from Kafr Kari.
>
> Josh,
>
> Is the information concerning Israeli identity cards in the
> following article incorrect?
>
> Sheldon L. Richman
> 'Who is a Jew' Matters in Israel
> The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
> March 1990
> p. 10
>
>         ....
>
>         Each Israeli must carry an identity card, which has a
>         line indicating "nationality."  One would think that an
>         Israeli citizen would have the word "Israeli" on that
>         line. Not so. The nationality of any Jew is "Jew;" the
>         nationality of an Israeli Arab--even one who has lived
>         for decades in, say, Jaffa--is "Arab." In 1970 a Jewish
>         human rights activist tried to challenge this practice by
>         asking the Interior Ministry to change his registration
>         to Israeli. It refused and the Supreme Court upheld the
>         decision. The court stated that "There is no Israeli
>         nation separate from the Jewish people."

Wayne. Show me TWO SETS  of identity cards for Israeli citizens. They don't
differ in size, color or whatever. Since you don't read Hebrew, you could NOT
tell apart the identity card held by an Israeli, an Israeli Arab, or an Israeli
Druze citizen. Or for that matter, an Israeli Circassian.





>
>         Where does that leave Israelis who are non-Jews or not
>         recognized by the state?  On its face it implies
>         second-class citizenship for someone.
>


Nonsense.




>         If the Orthodox rabbis get their way, many people now
>         regarded as Jews will be excluded from full civil rights
>         in Israel. That would be bad.  But what of the people who
>         never have had the same rights as those extended to Jews,
>         namely, the Palestinians living in Israel?
>
>         Israel is a state-socialist country; the government owns
>         much of the economy. Thus, to be a non-Jew has countless
>



Not any more. Many international companies are buying or interested in buying
stock in companies in which the government has a controlling share.



> practical disadvantages. Over 90 percent of the land is
>         held by the state. Precious water resources and
>         electrical power are controlled by the state. As in any
>         socialist country, politicians ultimately decide who gets
>         what.
>
>         Since Israel is a state of, by, and for the Jewish
>         people, the resources primarily benefit Jews.  Arabs are
>         taxed like Jews, but they do not have the same access to


Nonsense. It is the LOCAL municipality that handles roads, schools, etc. I pay
much more in city taxes for a two room apartment in a lousy neighborhood
in Jerusalem (East Talpiot) than my Arab students living in *very* spacious
villas in their villages.

>         resources as Jews. The land held by the state may not be
>         sold or leased to Arabs.  Arab villages and farms do not
>         get the same quality of services--electrical, water, and
>         on and on--as Jewish towns and farms.  Arab farmers in
>         Israel are not free to sell their produce directly to

I hate to clue you Mcguire but until a year ago, Jewish farmers couldn't
market their produce privately either. EVERYONE had to go through the
respective fruit or citrus or vegetable marketing board. And as far as export
is concerned, until a year ago everything went out under the CARMEL name and
that necessitated a central export board.






>         buyers outside the country.  (Only threats of retaliation
>         against Israeli products by the European Community
>         persuaded the authorities to let Arabs in the occupied
>         territories export directly.)
>
>         The Arabs of Israel are like serfs in a socialist state
>         run for the benefit of someone else.  They can have
>         representatives in the Knesset, but they can't change the
>         system.


Mcguire, you're starting to get on my nerves. This is utter TRASH.

>
>         It is important to understand the essential relationship
>         between socialism and Israel as it has existed since
>         1948.  Were Israel to adopt free-market capitalism, as
>         some American economists urge, the state's character
>         would change radically.  If all land and industry were
>         privately owned, free trade practiced and the government
>         limited to a neutral referee, the country, by definition,
>         could not discriminate.  Equal rights and the rule of law
>         are hallmarks of capitalism.  There is no second-class
>         citizenship in the free market.  This point is more
>         radical than it may appear at first: Israel's
>         "fundamental laws" are incompatible with the distinctive
>         Western political philosophy and tradition known as
>         classical liberalism.
>
>         Israel can either maintain the status quo, including the
>         socialism that is sinking its economy into an abyss and
>         causing significant emigration, or give up socialism and
>         adopt capitalism, in which case it would no longer
>         discriminate against non-Jews.  Few Israelis want to face
>         this choice.  But, like it or not, the need to choose is
>         something about which they have no choice.
> ---
>  ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ Life is full of undocumented features!
> --


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
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