HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:33:22 GMT

In article <18ta29INN829@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) says:
>
>>
>>	Israelies who are reluctant to abandon the Golan,
>>	without strong guarantees from Syria that the territory
>>	will not become a hostile promontory, are to be commended.
>>	Their caution tempers their enthusiam for peace, and the
>>	two will serve a foundation upon which treaties can be built.
>>
>>	But those who refuse to compromise on this issue
>>	are as foolish children making fire in a field of dry grass.
>
>Compromise is a two way street.  Syria must compromise as well.  There must
>be a give and take, but not on the Camp David model where Israel did all
>the giving and Egypt did all the taking.

The precedent is set, I see no difference in the situation. The syrians
(if they are smart enough) can expect the whole territory. Why should
Assad compromise an inch when Sadat was did not?

>>
>>>
>>>I agree that peace is in everyone's best interest. Realistically, though, how
>>>much of the Golan do you think Israel would ever be willing to give back.
>>
>>	Only that which is Syrian and not Jewish land.
>>	The entirety (100%), I believe.
>>
>Considering the fact that the boundaries in that area are all of rather
>recent origin and in some ways arbitrary, it is naive or ingenuous to call
>the Golan Heights Syrian land.  It was only attached to Syria rather than
>Palestine because of a political deal between Great Britain and France--in
>other words, the fact that Syria controlled the Golan Heights at any time
>was an historical accident, and the result of a backroom deal.  It was
>never used as a n integral part of Syria, but only as a staging ground for
>attacks on the Jewish population in the valley below.  In light of that
>history, any reasonable compromise must include the sharing of the Golan
>Heights between Israel and Syria.

That's all very true and nice, but why is Sinai Egyptian? and Taba?

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 06:40:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
>>targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
>>to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY. 
>
>Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?

You are off.  Yes *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.  I am a US CITIZEN FYI.  I pay
tax probably a lot more than you do, and contribute to AMERICA'S unity
a lot more than you do.  My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with
the saftey of israel like some.  ALSO, FYI, the US and Lebanon do alow dual
citizenships. So, I am an American by heart/practice and Lebanese 
via parents.

I hope you don't have a problem with that.  I don't FLAME UP if the US
doesn't give $10 BILLION in loan guarantees to Lebanon, nor
five billions either.  You and many israel-lovers do.  If BUSH doesn't
give moeny to israel, the lobby moves in to arm twist OUR president.
Yes I do care for my country America, and it is MY MONEY THAT IS 
KILLING INNOCENTS IN THE WEST BANK, so you should be thankfull.

Question:  Are you American, Israeli, or Jewish?  Try and answer that
if you wished to make the above comment about me.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:42:26 GMT

In article <4145@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
writes:

|>There is a rabbinical teaching, dating from way before the current
|>Moslem-Jewish (or should I say Arab/Palestinian-Israel) was even a
|>twinkle in anybody's eye.
|>
|>In the bible three plots of land are bought in perpetuity for the
|>Jewish people:
|>
|>a) Hebron.  Bought by Abraham as a burial site (in the Cave of
|>Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs) for his wife, Sarah, and eventually
|>for himself, as well as his son, Isaac, and grandson, Jaacob, along
|>with their wives, Rebeccah and Leah.  (Jacob's other wife, Rachel, is
|>buried in Bethlehem.)
|>
|>b) Shechem (Nablus).  Bought by Jacob as a burial site for his son
|>Joseph.
|>
|>c) The Temple Mount in Jerusalem: Bought by King David in order to
|>build the Temple.
|>
|>
|>In light of the the above, please tell me who is occupying whom, or
|>what?
|>
|>(BTW in all of these places, apart from the Temple Mount-for fear of
|>entering forbidden areas in a state of religious impurity-there has
|>been a continual Jewish presence, apart from 1948-1967 when the
|>Jordanians controlled the area.)

Your mythology might have more credibility if the bible explained just when and
how the Jews managed to lose the ark of the covenant. That must have been quite
a difficult one to explain to the chief priest eh? It is obvious that the bible
does not tell the whole story there and it is equally obvious that it is not an
impartial account (to put it mildly!)

The greek myths contain passages which were deliberatly inserted to give a cause
for invasion later. Ever wondered why Hercules went about winning trials of
strength with local chiefs then leaving the administration of the city "in
trust" for his descendants?

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE (AFTER ETHIOPIA)
Date: 12 Sep 1992 18:25:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) says:

>There is DISCRIMINATION in the government of the jewish nation. European Jews 
>are first class citizens,  Palestinian Jews 2nd, Yemenese Jews 3rd, black
>Jews 4th or 5th,..., Palestinian Christians next, and Palestinian Muslims 
>are in worst. UPI reports equality-demanding demonstrations by Black Jews 
>(shown below).

Well, at least Israel is a democracy and doesn't prevent demonstrations.

Obviously, Israeli hasn't done a perfect job resettling the enormous
numbers of immigrants who have come recently.  And the orthodox religious
authorities wield too much power and are misusing it.  So there will be
unhappiness at times.  But why don't you go and ask those people whether or
not they are glad they returned to their homeland?

In time, all these immigrants will be absorbed into the mainstream of
Israeli life, and they are wanted by their brethren.  Unlike Germany, you
don't see any demonstrations demanding that foreigners be kicked out, the
way the Saudis and the Kuwaitis have been booting out Palestinian Arabs.

Second class, third class, etc.?  You've got to be out of your mind!

>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 

Occupied Palestine?  You ARE out of your mind!

Or do you forget, or pretend to forget, that Israel was there long before
any part of that area was temporarily called Palestine, and will be there
long after everyone forgets that there was a short period of time during
which some people referred to it as Palestine.

Of course, there is a part of Palestine that could be considered occupied,
but that portion is usually referred to as Jordan.  Comprising about three
quarters of Palestine, east of the Jordan River, it is ruled by a family of
immigrants, the Hashemites.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 05:50:59 GMT


In article <BuBvq1.FGE@news.cso.uiuc.edu> Ed Shnekendorf wrote:
>
>Arabs who actually resided in what became Israel owned 3.3% of the land while
>Jews who actually resided in Israel owned 8.6% of the land.  16.5% percent
>was owned by absentee landlords.  Discounting rich Arab landlords who lived
>in other countries and weren't essentially Palestinian, of those who lived
>in the land, the majority owners were Jews.  Additionally, 70% of the land
>was owned by the Mandatory government.  Thus, when Israel became a state,
>that land was officially and legally transferred to the new Israeli gvt.
>
>              -Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Mandatory Gvt, p.247

I will be generous and suppose that this reference was not manufactured
by you but copied from somewhere else.  Do yourself a favour and quote
your actual source rather than your source's source.

I was a bit intrigued by your numbers, since they would need to be
calculated from a mass of fine detail.  The reason is neither the borders
of the UNGA's Jewish State nor the later borders of Israel had been
defined in 1946 and they were not a simple union of British administrative
districts.

So, I looked up the report you cite.  Alas for you, page 247 is the second
page of the section Systems of Land Taxation and does not contain data 
directly related to the figures you quote.  I then read all of the Chapter 
called "Land".  Maybe I missed it, but I still couldn't find your figures 
nor tables from which they could readily be derived.   I did find some
other interesting stuff, though.  For example on pages 267/8 we find a
breakdown of "Government land".   "The occupiers of Government land
under item (ii) are Arabs; their right of occupation derives from the
Ottoman regime and has never been seriously in dispute."  The category
in question amounted to up to 182000 dunums, or about the same as the
total of all land purchases by Jews for 1936-1945 (page 244).  

In summary, your reference is incorrect.  If you want us to accept your
figures you will have to find some valid justification for them.

By the way, I just happenned to notice the following on page 212, after
a long analysis of illegal immigration:
   "The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes
    of permanent settlement is insignificant."

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Hi There!!
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:30:32 GMT



	Am I back?  I donno...  I just decided to drop by and say hi.

	I for one kept my promise not to post till the end of [last]
month - we can't say that for every posters here on TPM [does the name
Jack rings a bell? :)].


	In a few days I will be starting school [nyh in the new and
improoved grad student version] so I will probably just browse around
- I'll try to stay out of unproductive arguments [as always :)] but I
have a feeling that I won't stay long.


	On my way in [before I cancled some 70 articles] I saw that my
dearest friend Anisa still tries to force religion on Zionism - Anisa,
you are wrong - the bible is used merly as a history book - that's
all.



	Hope you all enjoyed my leave - 

		-Nevo
-- 
Nevo Y. Hed ............. nyh@wpi.wpi.edu .....................................
++1-508-754-2491 ........ CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute .........
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx .
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:15:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.093741.29858@cc.uow.edu.au> u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:
>
>hi all 
>
>im a new commer to the group. i dont know if this topic has been discussed 
>earlier or not but i would like to know if the israelis feel guilty at all
>for what they are doing to the  palistinians.

Well, your subject line isn't just provocative, it's offensive.  It
sounds like you're accusing the entire Jewish people of racism.  

>it seems to me that the palistinians are having to go through the same hell 
>jews went through under the nazi's.

And you definitely need a huge dose of perspective.  Six million Jews
were killed in the concentration camps and pogroms under Nazi Germany.
Israel has no concentration camps, and is not conducting pogroms.  The
number of deaths is three orders of magnitude less, over forty plus
years.

>is there any place in the world for a people without a land??????
>
>does any one  care????????/
>
>in my own opinion the meretz party in israel has the    best stand on the 
>issue of co-existance.
>
>ie two seperate states
>
>i think once palistine is created, the  muslims shouldn't have 
>   any problems in recognizing israel.

Then why did they attempt to push Israel into the sea and evict those
Jews who had returned in 1948?  Hm???


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 08:54:47 GMT

jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>In article <1992Aug31.053446.1003@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>
>>In article 8660@bony1.bony.com, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>>In article <bdm.714575071@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>>>horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>>>
>>>>>The Jewish state, "Palestine" to the British, has *always* existed
>>>>>during the last 3O00+ years -- the "Modern" State of Israel is just
>>>>>that -- modern -- but it is not "new". 
>>>>
>>>>This is not fact, it's just (recent) religious dogma.  Since that
>>>>makes it immune to argument, I won't try.
>>>
>>>There were Jewish Kings in Israel who wrote and spoke Hebrew many
>>>centuries before anyone spoke any form of Arabic. 
>>
>>What does this have to do with it?  The point of argument was the "*always*".

>It shows that the Modern State of Israel is a continuation of an
>old and documented Jewish State.  It is odd that you, an amateur
>historian, regard this as "(recent) religious dogma". 

You are putting words into my mouth.  The word "state" has a fairly 
well defined meaning.  You can argue for the continuous existence of 
the Jewish people/race/culture/religion/ even "nation" if you don't 
mind giving your definition.  But you can't (as Jonathon did) argue
for the continuous existence of a "state" because prior to 1948 there
was no such state for at least thousands of years.  As far as I know,
there is no legal connection between Israel-since-1948 and any ancient 
state, so I think it is reasonable for me to describe belief in such 
a connection as a "dogma".  Frankly I have no objection to you holding 
such beliefs and no desire to argue against them.  Just don't present 
them as "facts".

>>>have such a fetish with Palestine in the middle of this century, you'd
>>>realize that history comprises other centuries, as well.  
>>>
>>>As for "recent" religious dogma, Jewish Kings in Israel are documented
>>>in a book called the Bible, though it appears that your library may
>>>not have a copy.
>>
>>I didn't realise the Bible was written recently.  I apologise for
>>my ignorance.

>Seeing as it was you who described Biblical description of the ancient
>Jewish State as "(recent) religious dogma", your apology to the net is
>appropriate. 

You can't read English, that's your problem.

>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President

Brendan.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:45:44 GMT
	<1992Sep10.183800.26495@discus.technion.ac.il>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il's message of 10 Sep 92 18:38:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.183800.26495@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
> In article <1992Sep9.183521.21105@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> >
> >I have been thinking about the recent release of hundreds of
> >Palestinians from Israeli prisons by Rabin's government. The US media
> >have portrayed this action as an example of Rabin's goodwill; a positive
> >gesture. I ask: why were these people in prison? If they are criminals,
> >why are they being released? If they are not criminals, why are they not
> >all released?
>
> As I understand it, they are all convicted criminals who served 2/3+
> of their time and do not have blood (Arab or Jew) on their hands.

That really isn't saying much, since the definition of "crime" and
"criminal" is entirely up to the whims of the Israeli occupation forces.

> Throwing stones and diturbing oreder is not political offense and might
> be punished. There are many strictly criminal cases in the WB&G I GUess.

There *are* no "political" offenses according to Israeli definition, so
everyone their military officers masquerading as judges convict is, ipso
facto, a "criminal" being "punished".  For example, the mere verbal
expression of support for the PLO is a "crime".  In Israel too, by the
way.

> Begin himslef caused this British regulation "Nazi" regulaion. He
> was of course exaggerating.

I am absolutely certain that your evaluation of such a statement as
constituting ("of course") an exaggeration couldn't possibly be colored
by the fact that the Defense Regulations are now being used by Israel.

Well, those who characterised them as Nazi (in fact, it was claimed that
"Even in Nazi Germany there were no such laws", believe it or not), were
major leaders of the pre-state Zionist leadership, including the person
who went on to become Israel's first Government Legal Advisor -- Yaakov
Shimshon Shapira.  *He* gave no indication that he thought that
characterization was in any way exaggerated -- but for some reason,
Israel continued to make use of these very same regulations even under
his tenure.  It must be that "Nazi regulations" promptly lose their Nazi
flavor upon adoption by a Jewish state.
--
Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead
USC/ISI            of for President."     Bill Clinton, commenting on GOP
arens@isi.edu      attacks on his wife.   LA Times, 8/20.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE (AFTER ETHIOPIA)
Summary: Elghani sticks his foot in his mouth
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:42:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.175918.2416897@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

# In article <1992Sep15.024629.25516@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

# ># There is DISCRIMINATION in the government of the jewish nation.European Jews 
# ># are first class citizens,  Palestinian Jews 2nd, Yemenese Jews 3rd, black

# >	The "problem" with the Ethiopian Jews has to do with Jewish law,
# >	The Israeli people have welcomed them with open arms, and continue
# >to do so.

# But the following UPI report negates your words, tell me why?    -jle

	I am willing to tell you why, but only when you show me the part
of the UPI rreport that you left out.  It must be in the part you left
out since it is not in the part you included.

# 	JERUSALEM (UPI)  ...
# 	But younger members of the tightly-knit community of 40,000 Jews
# airlifted from Ethiopia over the last decade said the dispute over their
# kessim was only the most humiliating part of the growing bitterness they
# feel over their reception in Israel.  ...

	Nothing about how the Israeli people have not welcomed them with
open arms, and nothing to refute that this is specifically a problem
related to technical aspects  of religous law, a subject for which
Elghani knows nothing about.

# 	``The most pressing problem for the Ethiopian community in Israel,
# more so than those problems of housing and unemployment, is the deep
# insult to us as Jews,'' Jobza Etzinpa, head of the Movement of Ethiopian
# Jews in Israel, said in a letter to the Chief Rabbinate.  ...
 
	Nothing about how the Israeli people have not welcomed them with
open arms, and nothing to refute that this is specifically a problem
related to technical aspects  of religous law, a subject for which
Elghani knows nothing about.

# 	``Instead of actively integrating and connecting our community to the
# nation of Israel, the discriminating policies of different governmental
# ministries have contributed to the separation and tearing of this
# community from the societal fabric of Israel.''

	Nothing about how the Israeli people have not welcomed them with
open arms, and nothing to refute that this is specifically a problem
related to technical aspects  of religous law, a subject for which
Elghani knows nothing about.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,soc.rights.human,alt.discrimination
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 22:37:13 GMT

In article <3744@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>You are sooooo funny, Jake.  Remember that piece of pure propoganda garbage
>that you posted last year from the N.Y.T. pertaining to the Gulf War and the
>so-called views of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (et al),
>whom were supposedly in favor of and supported the invasion?

I have looked at my postings from the New York Times and haven't found
anything that matches your description.  Whatever are you talking about?

>You are so two faced concerning your position on Arabs - you completely deny
>the injustices towards Palestinians in Israel while supporting the government
>of Kuwait and inquire when their relationship will strengthen with Israel.

I have spoken out repeatedly in the past denouncing the oppression of
Palestineans, Arabs and other people at the hands of regimes
throughout the Middle East.  I have also pointed out that, despite the
headlines, Palestinean Arabs inside Israel enjoy much greater freedoms
of speech, religion, and political representation than in any other
Arab state.  This is much of the reason that there are still so many
Palestinean Arabs in Israel; if the conditions were 1/10 th as bad as
they have been presented, Arab refugees would be streaming OUT of
Israel rather than INTO it.

>You never cease to amaze me Jake.  And the N.Y.T. seems to coincide with
>your own personal views - biased and racist.

Nope.  If I feel that the NY Times is biased in some article, it is
generally because our views diverge, rather than co-incide.

>BTW, do you ever look in the mirror and cry?

Do you ever look in the mirror and laugh?  
Lots of other people laugh at you.  
Perhaps they know something?


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast