From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Re: Are VWs any good
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1992 15:46:14 GMT

In article <IdqrzPb0BwwaBNypF9@transarc.com> Don_Schmitz@TRANSARC.COM writes:
> I was largely trying to present the other side of the story, to paraphrase
> slightly: "VWs are trouble free, engineered to aerospace specifications,
> provide the ultimate in performance and value,  and anyone that disagrees
> is simply too dense to notice the subtlety and refinement that you get
> in every precision crafted example of the breed".

I don't think that (at least) Eliot or I were saying *quite* that.  I think
what we're trying to say is that...
  - VWs are not necessarily incredibly unreliable.  In fact, with proper
    maintenance, they can even be fairly reliable.
  - VWs are not incredibly overpriced.  In fact, if you take into account
    just the objective factors (ie, no fahrvergnugen), they might cost just
    a little more than an equivalent Japanese car.
  - VWs are not always difficult to work on.  Some models (such as a Scirocco
    16V) are more difficult due to space constraints, but most recent VW
    models are quite accessible for repair.
  - VWs don't always depreciate to zero as soon as you drive off the lot.
    In fact, some of them have quite respectable resale values.
Now, beyond this you get the subjective stuff.  Things like a sombre but
functional interior.  A sensitive and direct steering.  Overengineering
where it counts (like using 14x6 wheels instead of Honda's 14x5).  And of
course, Fahrvergnugen, the joy of driving.  Although, as someone said here,
it may be that fahrvergnugen is built into each one of us, and VWs really
just let you enjoy it -- but if you weren't born with fahrvergnugen, you
won't think VWs are anything special.  :)

>> If you compare the numbers as well as subjective evaluations on the
>> VR6's performance vs. the high strung Integra, you'll see that there's
>> no contest.  The VR6 will do 0-60 in 6.9 secs easily.

> The trouble with subjective evaluations is that they're so subjective :-)
> If we want to play this game, note that a 5.0 Mustang will do a fairly
> effortless 0-60 in the 6s too, cost a lot less than a Corrado, and pull
> similar Gs on the skidpad. Clearly there are more components to
> evaluate in a car than 0-60 time, skidpad Gs and price.

Right.  But in a way, you have something there.  Wouldn't a Mustang be more
effortless for 0-60 in 7s than an Integra?  I think so, too.  And this is
what the VR6 is all about -- there is no substitute for cubic inches.  Of
course, beyond the engine argument, the Corrado and Mustang don't have a
whole lot in common.

> The argument seems to be changing from "a VW can out perform all
> competitors", to "a VW is easier to drive fast, and feels better doing
> it". I completely agree with the later - but now we are talking about
> a largely subjective advantage for the VW, rather than an objective
> measure of performance per dollar.

I don't think that anyone really made that first claim.  I would agree that
compared to (at least some of) the Japanese, VWs have a small price dis-
advantage when only objective factors are taken into account.

> No, I haven't driven a VR6 Corrado - not because I don't think its a
> fantastic car, but because I now have a family and need something more
> the size of a Jetta.  When/if a VR6 Jetta arrives in the US, I'm sure
> I'll give it a try, but with an expected price in the low 20s, it will
> have to hold its own against the Maxima and Camry SEs (both have 24
> valve, ~3L V6s of ~200hp, do 0-60 in the 7sec range, and start at $20K).

NO!  NO!!  NO!!!  The Pasat VR6, which is coming soon, will start at about
$20K (that's the same range as a Camry V6 and Maxima V6.  Honda's V6 models
cost far more, of course...).  At $20K, you will get air conditioning, power
windows and locks, theft alarm, BBS wheels, traction control, ...  The 0-60
time should be under 8 seconds (R&T tested the Maxima SE at 8.5).  Surely
you can't say that that's not competitive?

The Jetta VR6, when it gets here at the end of the year, will likely be
priced around $16K.  (All prices in US dollars, of course.)

> So, they decided to move up market, and started work on the killer
> VR6, the Corrado and the Pasat. Unfortunately, the VR6, which was
> rumored to arrive in 1988, in 24V, 200hp trim no less, arrived 4 years
> late and with a more pedestrian 165 hp.  At the same time, the sticker
> price of VWs ultimate sports coupe went from 15K to 26K in 4 years. 

Where do you get these numbers, Don?  The base price for a Corrado SLC (with
the VR6 engine) is $21,840.

Anyway, this is not intended as a flame.  I know VWs have their faults, but
I personally think that the pleasure I get from driving one far surpasses
that.  But that's just my opinion!  :)

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]