HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Friday, 10 Apr 1992 11:01:51 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Emigrants and their political role in f
 <92098.184927BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
 <1992Apr9.065508.23361@watdragon.waterloo.edu>

In article <1992Apr9.065508.23361@watdragon.waterloo.edu>,
abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) says:
>
>In article <92098.184927BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
>(Tomislav Grgic) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr3.111748.8066@isy.liu.se>, predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag
>Pucar) says:
>>>The other kind is those who emigrate d
>>>because they were real criminals (Baresic etc...), i.e. killers, nobodies
>>>who later joined various terrorist groups, these kind of
>>>people shouldn't be welcome home, it is not a loss if they stay in Paraguay r
>>>or wherever they are.
>>
>>Your opinion (and that's all it is) of the second group being killers and
>>nobodies is false. You have been reading too much 'official Yugoslav
>>state propaganda' put out during the existence of the prior Yugoslavia -
>>and you have obviously reached the point of confusing fact with fiction.
>>If you like believe it, but you'd be foolish to cite that particular opinion
>>again.
>
>Just a second here. Baresic was recognized in legal trial in front of
>Swedish (not ex-YU!!) court as guilty of first degree murder.
>Whatever was the background of his activity, as long as nobody
>disprove this -- he is a criminal. That's all.
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrej

True. And there were others. Not nearly enough of them though (let's estimate
their type at 0.001% of emigrants) to constitute forming a category and
say that a significant amount of emigrants fall into this group.

Tomislav Grgic
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian postage stamps
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:50:14 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr9.163238.10889@husc3.harvard.edu> benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.130722.10882@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>
>>guess whom will Serbs support?
>
>Ha!  That's easy!  The Serbs will support their beloved Slavic brothers
>who live below the beautiful Julian Alps!
>
>>Milan
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrej
You know what is the worse thing?  I agree with you.  Serbs will
never learn that interes comes before some undefined feelings. 
But you will have to pay reparations to the families of the killed 
soldiers and apologise. 

>
>P.S.  What a magnificent alliance that will be!  With their hands bound
>      together, the Serbs and Slovenes will dance "kolo," while yodeling
>      to their heart's content!  "Boooze ojlalijalijalom Pravde lijalom
>      ti sto jodladidla JU HUUU . . ."

This is the first yodeling I liked.  But "Boze Pravde" is not kolo. 

Regards,
Milan
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Money for Croatian Children
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:18:31 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <gdrwZIq00VovQ3GVZi@andrew.cmu.edu> na0i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nenad Antonic) writes:
>Milan N. Stojanovic writes:
>
>> So you beg money for your children,(or horses, I remember an article
>> "Save the Lipicaners") hospitals, and spend that money on weapons.


You is plural, also.  You should know that.  You have studied 
English in England, haven't you?
>
>	Could you remind me where did I beg the money for horses?
>Also, where did I beg the money that would be used for weapons
>(if you claim that AmeriCares ships weapons, I would appreciate
>the details -- I believed they were involved in medical supplies and
>alike).
>
>	As your posting is targeting me personally, I expect the
>proof of all the above claims, or an apology.
OA>

So no apology.

>	Regards
>
>		Nenad Antoni\'c.

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic

ps.  Read your posting more carefully next time. You are the one
who mentioned why money is not spent for hospitals (they are, allegedly, 
being quickly destroyed). 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: merlic@jacob.UVic.CA (Mile  Erlic)
Subject: CNN
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 20:35:33 GMT

  On CNN at 2:00pm PDST, the US state department was quoted as
stating that Serbia was acting beyond civilized behaviour.
A warning was made that if the behaviour did not change, Serbia
would be barred from the CSCE.

-- 
Mile Erlic, Dept. Elec. & Comp. Eng., Univ. of Victoria
Victoria, B.C., Canada V8W 3P6, (604) 721-8660
merlic@sirius.uvic.ca

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: djukanov@cs.uwp.edu (Krsta Djukanovic)
Subject: Austrian TV and Radio
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Parkside
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:21:38 GMT

 Hi 
 It  came to my attention the other day that
 Austrian Radio and Television is state owned, only, and
 there is no other independent television and radio stations
 within Austria. 
 Is that correct or is it just something spread around 
 so that democracy of Austria is being blamished.?
	 Can anybody tell us a little more about newsmedia in 
	 this country? 

	    With best regards
			    Krsta

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R)
Subject: Re: Fashism in Serbia (english version)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 04:59:04 GMT

In article <16526@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.163223.2342@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>
>without getting into any discussion of AI report, I would like
>to ask you again : "Why don't Croat protest against their anti-democratic
>elements?" (for there are many, from extreme left to extreme right)

Without commenting on your last words (probably someone else is more 
qualified to do this than I):

Probably because there is a war going on in much of the country, where people
are distracted with concerns of their personal safety, and the state of their
homes, and if they will ever return to their home.  As for the rest of the
population, they are preoccupied with the war as well.  This is my opinion.
I can't speak for the population of Croatia.  All I can point out is that
things have hardly normalized there yet. 
>
>About protest in SD, that's BS.

A while back Predrag posted an excerpt from Slobodna Dalmacija (and I have
read several similar articles from them since).  Actually, I recall him
mentioning that some people (like you) might not understand it because it
was in Croatian.  I guess he was right.  ;-)  

Best regards,

Joe Blazic
blazic@ecf.toronto.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:3880 soc.culture.greek:3313 soc.culture.europe:3746
From: naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: "Preserved Stability" - A Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Article
Date: 14 Apr 92 09:51:17 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <1992Apr14.045544.24267@ennews.eas.asu.edu> karadimc@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Anton Karadimce) writes:

>Just wondering: Does Mr. Samaras have any sense of reality?
>
He is no more Greek foreign minister.

>Anton P. Karadimce

Goce.
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Monday, 13 Apr 1992 20:06:10 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Emigrants and their political role in f
 <1992Apr13.081937.10797@isy.liu.se>

In article <1992Apr13.081937.10797@isy.liu.se>, predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag
Pucar) says:
>
>Let's hope you have confused facts with fiction, or you maybe seriously think
>that it's OK to shoot ambassadors etc...

Of course it's not OK! I'm simply saying that people don't emigrate
with the goal of becoming professional killers, criminals or hit-men -
the second of your two categories for classification simply does not
merit mention since the amount of people who delve in such action is
minute! It is worth mentioning that every nation and every people has
it's evil elements (krooks, war mongers/profiteers, prostitutes, killers,
rapists, etc.) yet they are (thankfully) in no way any majority
within any nation. My goal in getting into this arguement is not one
of trying to dispute that these types don't exist with Croatians (as they
do within all of the ex-communist republics of ex-YU). I am trying
to invalidate the 'emigracijske price' that ex-YU has built up against
the Croatians as being terrorists, fascists and so on.

And if you're talking about killings of ambassadors, let's talk about
all the hit men sent abroad by Belgrade to murder Croats and Albanians,
who chose to be politically active (legally) in their new homelands.
If you're really interested in the facts behind this (which you likely
consider to be lies, correct me if I'm wrong), I can scan some literature
and jog your memory and maybe we'll both learn something.

Justly yours,

Tomislav Grgic
BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Fashism in Serbia (english version)
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:34:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16601
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

In article <1992Apr9.045904.1685@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>In article <16526@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr5.163223.2342@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
*) *) 
*) *) without getting into any discussion of AI report, I would like
*) *) to ask you again : "Why don't Croat protest against their anti-democratic
*) *) elements?" (for there are many, from extreme left to extreme right)
*) 
*) Without commenting on your last words (probably someone else is more 
*) qualified to do this than I):
*) 
*) Probably because there is a war going on in much of the country, where people
*) are distracted with concerns of their personal safety, and the state of their
*) homes, and if they will ever return to their home.  As for the rest of the
*) population, they are preoccupied with the war as well.  This is my opinion.
*) I can't speak for the population of Croatia.  All I can point out is that
*) things have hardly normalized there yet. 


so you say it is OK for croatia to "be quiet" about their extremes since it
is "u interesu naroda" , i.e. it is for higher goals of "our race".
(actually to be more precise, extrems are even encouraged....)

but of course, when a damn Serb say something, you make a hell media
happening out of it, right?

Croats may, so Serbs may not.

*) *) About protest in SD, that's BS.
*) 
*) A while back Predrag posted an excerpt from Slobodna Dalmacija (and I have
*) read several similar articles from them since).  Actually, I recall him
*) mentioning that some people (like you) might not understand it because it
*) was in Croatian.  I guess he was right.  ;-)  


of course. I do not know how to translate artificial names like : "tjemenac"
"okolokucnopisalo" "zoroklik" "okolovratnidopupnjak" etc.... I kinda figured
out other normal words.


*) Best regards,
*) 
*) Joe Blazic
*) blazic@ecf.toronto.edu


later,

Nik
--
 A limerick packs laughs anatomical
 Into space that is quite economical.
      But the good ones I've seen
      So seldom are clean,
 And the clean ones so seldom are comical.
--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Re: evo shale ba., on serbo-croatian
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:29:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.160326.10687@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.093859.15772@cc.uow.edu.au> cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:
>
>>  Neka se zovu, recimo, Nikola i Dejan.  
>
>Ako govorimo o surovim salama, cini mi se da ste Vi upravo napravili
>jednu.  Svesno ili nesvesno.  Nikola Gardovic je ime coveka, ako se
>dobro secam, ispravite me ako gresim,  kojeg su nevini

Kakorkoli ze obracate besed, g.Stojanovic, g.Cicic je zelel napisati
samo to, da delajte sale na racun svojih rojakov in svojega naroda. S
tem se z njim povsem strinjam.

>>I Haso i Mujo 
>
>ubili samo zato sto je slavio vencanje svoga sina, cini mi se. Da li
>je Dejan ime njegovoga sina, ili nekoga drugoga iz te povorke? 

In kaj ima kriminalec, ki je storil ta zlocin veze z narodom? Ker je v
Michiganu nek idiot ljudi zrl naj po vasem sklepanju pomeni, da so vsi
Amerikanci ljudozrci? Ali pa ker je neka budala ukazala raketirati
ljubljanski oddajnik in je bila (kot so kasneje pokazala porocila)
Srb, da so vsi Srbi krivi tega? Odgovornost za zlocine je stvar
posameznika in ne naroda. Zal pa moram priznati, da veliko ljudi
(katerih, se odlocite sami) vse preveckrat obraca smer implikacije.

Prav lep pozrav in enkrat za vselej razumite ze vendar, daa je
kriminal delo posameznika in ne naroda!

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Why?? (Was: Croatian postage stamps)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 21:41:34 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.162705.2432@eng.cam.ac.uk> 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic) writes:
>benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>
>>	I HEREBY STATE UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT ISTRA IS A PART OF SLOVENIA!
>>	IT USED TO BE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE DUCHY OF CARNIOLA 
>>  	(VOJVODINA KRANJSKA) AND OF NAPOLEON'S ILLYRIAN PROVINCES
>>	(WITH THE CENTER IN LJUBLJANA)!  THEREFORE, ISTRA RIGHTFULLY
>>	BELONGS TO US!
>
>According to Andrej, in the near future I will have the privilidge to
>become the citizen of his beloved Slovenia, unless he plans to kick
>out all non-Slovenes out of Rijeka (empty towns are not much use). It
>seems history never changes much.  In the last two centuries that
>patch of land was under the control of French, British, Hungarians,
>Croatians (Ban Jelacic), Austrians, Italians, Germans, Yugoslavs,
>Croatians... and finally according to Andrej, the future comes in
>shape of Slovene tricolour. Welcome to the list Andrej!

Flames or no flames. Before this come more basic question: "WHY?"
Namely why would (or should) Istra belong to Slovenia; or why would
Bosna be part of Yugo-Serbia? Andrej is talking about "historical
reasons". Thanx for nothing or does he intend to claim Dubrovnik as
well? The only acceptable scenario that Istria would become part of
Slovenia (or Bosnia of Yugo-Serbia; or Aegaen Macedonia of Republic of
Macedonia; or ....) is that people who live there express such a
desire - IMO. So esentially the question is: "Mladen, do you want to
live in Slovenia?"-)

Regards to all, and you nationalist-belivers, cool down. The only way
to build a human society is to take care about people themselves not
about nations,

Andrej
From: benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian postage stamps
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:42:11 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr12.162705.2432@eng.cam.ac.uk> 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic) writes:
>
>Why would anyone want to flame Andrej ?

Perhaps to check out his/her flamethrower?

>I find it hard to figure out, are you just pushing this ultra-nationalist
>image as a joke to amuse us or are you for real ?

Actually, I am trying to figure this out myself!  Ha, ha, ha!

>According to Andrej, in the near future I will have the privilidge to
>become the citizen of his beloved Slovenia,         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

You know, Mladene, apart from spelling, I really like your choice of words!

>unless he plans to kick
>out all non-Slovenes out of Rijeka (empty towns are not much use). 

No, Mladene, don't worry!  You'll be able to stay.  As you said:  "Empty towns
are not much of use."  Oh, yes, one more thing!  It's Reka, not Rijeka!

>It seems history never changes much.  

As Karl Marx pointed out:  "History always repeats itself--the second time
as a comedy!"

>In the last two centuries that
>patch of land was under the control of French, British, Hungarians,
                                                ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^
>Croatians (Ban Jelacic), Austrians, Italians, Germans, Yugoslavs,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^  
>Croatians... 

Well, I am really at a loss what to say to you.  If you're trying to emulate
the guy who has just invented the new and improved language of Croatia, then
you are definitely on the right track.  If, however, you're trying to pass
yourself off as a history expert, then, I'm sorry to say, you failed miserably.
First of all, when were the British in Istra?  During the 19th century it
was a part of the Austrian Empire.  Even under Austria-Hungary, Istra,
together with Dalmatia, fell under the jurisdiction of the Austrian emperor.
And what was that stuff about Ban Jelacic?  Are you trying to say that because
he fought the Hungarians, Istra automatically belongs to Croatia?  I mean,
using the same logic, I could argue that because the Slovenian regiments
put down the uprising of the Italian "carbonieri" in 1840's, Bosnia belongs
to Slovenia!  Also, it is hard to see how could Istra belong to the Germans,
since the only thing they did was to retreat across it in 1944 and build
a couple of bunkers. 

>and finally according to Andrej, the future comes in
>shape of Slovene tricolour. Welcome to the list Andrej!

Yep!  That's right!  We'll come, we'll see, and we'll win!  Then we'll give
you the status of an autonomous region within the borders of the Republic
of Slovenia and we'll all live together happily ever after!  In the meantime
Croatia will join Bosnia (or whatever remains of it) to create the new
state of Bosatia, and Tudjman we'll let himself be circumcosed. . . .

>Regards,
>
>Mladen

Regards,

Andrej
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 18:23:39 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Krajina

In article <1992Apr4.233755.21402@sol.UVic.CA>, merlic@jacob.UVic.CA (Mile
Erlic) says:
>
>  I've read some statements on this net that Krajina will eventually
>attach itself to Serbia through referendum. Let it be! However, then
>Kosovo will surely attach itself some day to Albania. Croats in Western
>and Eastern Srem will attach themselves to Croatia, Hungarians in
>Vojvodina will attach themselves to Hungary and  muslims in Sandjak will
>attach themselves to the new Bosnion muslim state.
>
>  Personally, I don't beleive that any of these scenarios will be
>realized. Realistically, we can expect no changes to the internal nor
>external borders of ex-Yugoslavia. What will emerge are six indepedent
>states with close economic ties (once all the nationalism has died
>away).
>--
>Mile Erlic, Dept. Elec. & Comp. Eng., Univ. of Victoria
>Victoria, B.C., Canada V8W 3P6, (604) 721-8660
>merlic@sirius.uvic.ca

I wholeheartedly agree. If SR Serbia wants 'Krajina', they'de better
be prepared to give those same rights they demand for Serbs outside
Serbia to minorities *within* SR Serbia (Where only 67% of the populus
are ethnic Serbs) - Croats can realistically and rightfully
demand this with the confidence that the region known as 'Krajina'
shall allways remain in the country of Croatia.

Now, if only the Serbian leadership and those willfully promoting
strife and conflict would realize how unattainable their 'goals' are.

I write this, on Tuesday April 7th, 1992, as The United States of America
announces it's recognition of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia and Slovenia.
How long before the Serbian war machine realizes the futility of their
perserverence and the immense long-term hardship they're bringing
upon all Serbs of the former Yugoslavia?

Best regards,

Tomislav Grgic
---------------------------------------------------------
"Nedamo ni jedan pedalj hrvatske zemlje."
---------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Genocide
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 16:15:16 GMT

We are listening about a year now at accusations about genocide going on in
what used to be Yugoslavia. The Serbian propaganda is talking how Serbs are
targets of this unexucasable crime. But as the things are going on I'd rather
say that the role of victims is not reserved for them, but for all others and
the "so-called" victims are those who are performing the rime. Just take a
look at what is going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina now. Have you seen all
those people running out of Bjelina (CNN and/or CBC report)? None of them is
Serb, but all of them are running before Serbs. And the "so-called" _peoples_
army? Yes, it's peoples, but in its opinion the only people are Serbs who get
all what they need from it.

To conclude, as long somebody will not pacify the Army and its helpers, there
will be no peace in Balkan.

Very depressed,

Andrej
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: War Against Bosnia
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:48:32 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

curcija@medr0.ecs.umass.edu (Dragan Curcija) writes:

>In article <16760@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>... 
>>within YU (as it is known) or if it was NOT Serbian population, then, who
>>the hack was asking to stay in YU? Muslims? Croats? WHO?

>	Serbia does not want Yugoslavia more than, say, Croatia.  This is
>becoming more and more obvious (I must be honest and say that I was not
>very clear with that for a long time).  Serbian leadership clearly shown

>All they care (including the extremists who are shooting into inocent
>people marching for Yugoslavia and peace) is enlarged Serbia, possibly
>ethnically clean.  As long as Yugoslavia serves them well (as a mask of

>Dont be confused, it is all very clear,
>Dragan


Dragan, I agree with you 100 %, almost.  The only disagreement is in the fact
that dissolution of Yugoslavia originated in Serbia, and later was spread
around.   Frankly, I haven't realised anybody realy believed in Yugoslav
orientation of Milosevic and falange.  Maybe the life in Belgrade makes
wonders, you know "thousand times repeated lies..."

Anyway, I believe the country could have been preserved.  The idea was finally
killed in Stari Trg - mine, and on last congress of SKJ.  I observed how
number of people around me are changing their mind, simply refusing to be
part of collective madness.  And Tudjman came later on, to put some refined
touch on everything.  And Paraga appeared in the end, to make some sense 
in Belgrade propaganda, but both are minor players.  The indispensable 
transformation have scared Milosevic and Army so much, they had to find the
way to postpone it.  And Yugoslavia as a federation of equal people never
was on their menu.  For what I sincerely regret, we should have been in
postion of Hungary or Czech. right now.  And, I dream sometimes...

But, life goes on.  I left the idea, even I wander how could I ever desire
to live with Arkans and Dragans and, worse, with whole bunch of 
"intelectuals".  Following Belgrade's press and public reaction on B&H
events these days, and the explanation from "intelectuals" in direct contact
and on the net, my definite conclusion is that dissolution is the best way.
Coincidentally, this is the only Milosevic's idea I accept.

Muris