Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Non-consensual force and abortion
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 19 Dec 92 20:28:59 EST
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starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
> jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
> }> Contract is informed consent to terms.  It's insufficient for a 
> }> person to be informed of the consequences of joining a group.  
> }> They must consent to the terms as well.
> }
> }the terms of a contract stipulate the consequences of that 
> }contract. if someone does not agree to the consequences of a set 
> }of terms they shouldn't agree to the terms. by joining the club 
> }you agree to the terms of membership, and the consequences that 
> }follow.
> 
> You assume some formalized method of joining.  It needn't be so.  
> They could informally join the club for a dinner to honor the 
> violinist.

generally joining a club is formalized in some way. you're distorting
the issue by introducing cases where the person hasn't really joined
or isn't really aware of the consequences. again, a faulty analogy.

> }> Many sorority girls may be informed that if they go to a frat 
> }> boy's room with him at a party while both are drunk that he may 
> }> rape her. This doesn't mean that she consents to it.  It means 
> }> she may be reckless, but it doesn't let the rapist off the hook.
> }
> }the girl still has to live with the consequence. actions speak 
> }louder than words. recklessness is as good as a contract in the 
> }eyes of nature.
> 
> "In the eyes of nature?"  Shouldn't "nature" be capitalized if it's 
> to be thus deified?  Thus: "Nature," as in "Mother Nature"?

Nature. satisfied?

> }if i walk too near the edge of a cliff & fall off, i may not have 
> }consented to sudden deacceleration at the end of the drop, but 
> }it's going to happen anyway. in the case of rape you can't, and 
> }shouldn't, blame it entirely on the girl, as the guy was primarily 
> }responsible. 
> 
> The guy was entirely responsible.  Otherwise, you're responsible for
> getting your car stolen if you park it in a neighborhood you know 
> to be unsafe.

yup. i am responsible. at least, -i'm- the one who ends up having to
buy a new car. and people aren't even likely to be sympathetic if
i left the keys in the ignition... same goes for rape. law is just
an effort to make sure the other responsible parties get their share
of the consequences.

> }in the case of the cliff i can only blame myself. in the case of 
> }pregnancy only 2 people are responsible, and it's reprehensible to 
> }punish an innocent 3rd party to alleviate that responsibility.
> 
> As I've pointed out, this theory by which pregnancy is the result of
> the interaction of two parties is flawed.

oh, tell me how -you- do it. i agree that there are exceptions, but
-someone- is responsible, and it's not the fetus.

> Suppose a woman gets herself artificially inseminated by a doctor, 
> then decides not to bear the child; is the doctor obligated to take 
> on this task?

if it was the mother's decision to get pregnant then she's entirely
responsible, just as a rapist is responsible for a pregnancy he causes.

jason

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Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian