HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Monash University
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:30:54 GMT

In article <3252@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> jcollier@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier) writes:
>I can't vote, but when I look at jurisdictions in which parties with
>policies similar to the coalition have been in power over extended 
>periods, the economy has sufferred severely. Even when it has 
>recovered, there has been a residue of inhumane social fall-out.
>
>So I don't agree that compared to Labor anything looks attractive.
>I think that is just wishful thinking. A lot of the economic
>problems in Victoria are a result of incautious deregulation, 
>just as they are in the US and Britain. I have also seen 
>it happen in British Columbia and Alberta where I used to live.
>It's deja vu all over again. I don't know why people can't learn
>from studying other times and places.
"A lot" != ALL or even most.
This Labor government has put this state into huge debt AT THE SAME
TIME as selling off huge amounts of govt assets (I'm not against
the latter per se but it just magnifies how much money
the govt has squandered). I and my children will suffer the 
"fallout" of this stupidity for quite a while. While you have to work hard
to mask Jeff Kennet and Pescott et al look good - this govt has finally
achieved that goal. 
d.s.
-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 00:26:56 GMT

In article <14784@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> s882730@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Ralph
Kutzner) writes:
>apeel@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Andrew Peel) writes:
>
>>To deliberately dismantle and sell off (possibly to foreigners) these 
>>services seems wasteful, unnecessary, even dangerous.
>>In short, the Liberal party is offering an organised vandalism of the
>>public utilities.                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>
>>The damage caused by this course of action, if it isn't successful,  would
take
>>several decades, and many billions of dollars to repair. 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This seems to about sum up what Labour has done to this state in the last
>decade.  The State Bank comes to mind and the $56 billion debt that we have
>fit the above criteria rather well.  At least with the Liberals there is a 
>possibilty this won't happen

:-)  What difference do you think a Liberal government would have made to
Tricontinental's actions?

By the way the State government's debt relative to State GDP is less than it
was during some of Bolte's years.  Short memories...

Chris O'Neill
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Open LETTER to Oz Immigration
Date: 27 Sep 92 19:46:48 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Curtin University of Technology

In article <dyfl.717220026@munagin>, dyfl@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Daniel Y Lam) writes:
...
> The nationalistic statement that the freedom of movement is a
> "privilege granted by the govt on behalf of the people of Australia"
> I just cannot accept.  Governments have no rights and cannot grant
> such.  Individuals have rights and should be free to make their own
> decisions.
> 
It is also wrong in fact. You can be born in .AU, have a valid passport and
be refused re-entry to the country. There is no 'right' even for Aust citizens
to enter Australia.

~Paul
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby)
Subject: Re: GST - Bloody Stupid
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date:  6 Oct 92 23:23:55 GMT

In <183@anl.oz> mjt@anl.oz (Michael Tuke) writes:

>From article <chris.717723968@suite.sw.oz.au>, by chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby):
>> 
>> It just turns out that a 15% tax on school costs would impact a particular
>> constituency a lot harder than others - so political expediency comes
>> along and out goes ideology. Mind you, I'm not saying this is a wholly
>> bad thing - it is a version of accountability - but they can't have it
>> both ways.
>
>The one big difference between school education and just about any
>other good/service (I can't actually think of another in the same
>category as education) is that a school education is available free to
>just about anyone - at huge expense to the taxpayer.  To tax those who
>make a personal sacrifice (and let's not have any crap about only the
>rich affording private schools) and save the taxpayer a fortune is
>hardly fair!

I'm glad you pointed this out Michael. I don't dispute the hardship
that many parents go through to avoid the "standard" education
served up by the taxpayer, nor the muscle of the private school
lobby. I wanted to point out that you can't hold a "GST promotes
efficiency by being universal" argument when you make exceptions
(whatever the reason).

If we wanted to treat education fairly we should impose the full
cost of its burden on its users. If we then wanted to subsidise
that cost for targetted groups in society (say Scotch College
students) we could do so through the Federal budget. You'd probably
want a means test too.  Maybe the current system is better, even
though it isn't "fair".

Here's another anomaly. The work done by unpaid housekeepers and
child-minders (mostly women) is neither counted in the GNP nor will
it be subject to GST, even though it clearly adds "value" in the
same way that car-wash companies add value.  This means a hidden
subsidy to those who can afford to support an unpaid worker, as
opposed to those who must pay for these services and who must pay
the GST.

While many will applaud this implicit support for "family values",
everyone should be aware who is paying for it... and of the direct
contradiction between the idea of hidden subsidies and the much
touted simple and universal advantages of the GST.

Chris
-- 
Chris Maltby - Softway Pty Ltd		Internet: chris@softway.sw.oz.au

PHONE:	+61-2-698-2322	"I'm waiting for X-Windows to become just that;
FAX:	+61-2-699-9174	 Ex-Windows" - A McGrath.
From: jcollier@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Date: 2 Oct 92 10:51:25 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: University of Melbourne, Australia

In <1992Oct1.003054.4992@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>This Labor government has put this state into huge debt AT THE SAME
>TIME as selling off huge amounts of govt assets (I'm not against
>the latter per se but it just magnifies how much money
>the govt has squandered). I and my children will suffer the 
>"fallout" of this stupidity for quite a while. While you have to work hard
>to mask Jeff Kennet and Pescott et al look good - this govt has finally
>achieved that goal. 

Yes, and experience elsewhere shows that a more conservative
government will continue the same policies with even greater
alacrity. You are about to purchase a pig in a poke, and
a rather large pig at that. I hope it doesn't roll over on you.

The same sort of "stupidity" was performed at roughly the same
time (a bit earlier actually) in the US and, as I said, in
Alberta and British Columbia. The debts and costs were of the same
order of magnitude in all cases. An even bigger disaster is looming
in the US as a result of Reaganomics driven de-regulation 
of banking. Presumably this sort of disaster is perceived to benefit
those who are supporting deregulation and economic rationalism.

I don't know why you think a Kennett government will turn the 
tide on deregulation and selling of assets. I suspect that they
intend to do even more of the same. Time will tell, of course. 
I am just glad that I will not be responsible, whatever happens.

-- 
John Collier 			Email: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
HPS -- U. of Melbourne		  	Fax:   61+3 344 7959
Parkville, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3052
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal policies way out of line.
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:27:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.073040.3869@darwin.ntu.edu.au>, b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke) writes:
> In article <1992Sep30.000429.3865@darwin.ntu.edu.au>, nunn@nutmeg.ntu.edu.au (JsNO  BAR---NUNN) writes:
>>   First of all, like would like to say that I've got nothing against the
>> Aboriginal race and their indiginitive rights. Do do think that the laws
>> that protect them and their rights are getting way way way out of line.

[ deleted to protect your stomach ]

> I'm sure that many of you down south are thinking that this is just the kind
> of insensitive redneck crap that you might expect from a university in 
> the NT.
> 

We all have our share.

> Well, it is not typical. The key point is sensitivity. Aboriginals in this
> part of the country, as well as in other parts, have not had a very good
> deal. Their problems must be approached with care. Our government here,
> of course, do not. They blunder around with much the same arguments as 
> those above and it does a lot of damage. One thing the Northern Territory
> University is doing is making a real attempt to inprove education for
> aboriginals.

You may care to look to the education of Mr Nunn et al as well.

~Paul
From: jcollier@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Date: 4 Oct 92 05:15:54 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: University of Melbourne, Australia

In <1992Oct2.113609.7459@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>I don't think you read my posting. I am talking about STATE
>debt.

Sorry, I don't get you. Alberta and British Columbia are 
similar to Australian states. De-regulation and selling
off of assets there were connected with massive increases
in Provincial debt, as well as large losses to small
investors. This also happened nationally in the US. 

I suppose the connection could be accidental in each
case, but I would like to have a clear example of the
two not being connected, with the result a healthy
economy.

As far as I can see, the additional causal factor
in the Victorian case was that Labor violated 
Keynesian economics by spending heavily during
a boom. Perhaps the Coalition will not make this
mistake come the next boom. I hope so.

-- 
John Collier 			Email: jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
HPS -- U. of Melbourne		  	Fax:   61+3 344 7959
Parkville, Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3052
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: GST - Bloody Stupid
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:39:53 GMT

In article <996200273@peg.pegasus.oz.au>, cwarren@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
> 
>             GST
>             
>             One contributer (Andrew Waugh) made the useful point
>             about the necessary amount of paper work needed to
>             reclaim GST.  Typically, one thoughtless soul snarled
>             back - let 'em all get cash registers.
>             
>             As usual, the snarls came from boring ol' suter.  He
>             obviously knows scant about real life private enterprise
>             in the current economic crisis.
>             

In detail it could be even worse. How do you claim back the GST on imputs? Do
you just deduct it from the GST payment due? Or must you pay the full amount
and claim back the GST you have payed?, hence tying up capital from several
weeks. What will be the 'unit' for GST calculation, the purchased unit, or the
sale unit. IE if you buy in a 100 unit package and at the end of the month have
sold 40 units can you claim 0, 40, or 100 units GST refund?

Note also the effect on sole traders in high service industries. The tax system
will allow claims on material input, wage input, external services inputs, but,
not the labour ( wage input equivalent ) of the proprieter. Best to set up a
company RSN.

There is no doubt that the present 30 sales taxes are in need of overhaul and
updating, but the GST seems to me to be a worst cure than the disease. It will
also result in a price *INCREASE* in many cases.

~Paul

Newsgroups: aus.politics
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Aboriginal policies way out of line.
From: nunn@nutmeg.ntu.edu.au (JsNO  BAR---NUNN)
Date: 30 Sep 92 11:16:44 +0900
Distribution: world
Organization: Information Technology, Northern Territory University

> Brian Salter-Duke (Brian Duke) (b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au) writes:

  So what you are saying is that it's a question of *pay back* rather than
gaining equity in society.

>I'm sure that many of you down south are thinking that this is just the kind
>of insensitive redneck crap that you might expect from a university in 
>the NT.

  This is the classic counter-argument Brian. If their's any opposition to
Aboriginal laws then it's being racist.  I've said it once and I'll say it
again: I've got nothing against Aboriginals, only the policies that serves their
interests and I don't think it's their fault; but the fault of greedy law makers. 


> Their problems must be approached with care. Our government here,
>of course, do not.

  I think the Northern Territory Government has been very understanding at the
expense of economic growth (etc mining).


> They blunder around with much the same arguments as 
>those above and it does a lot of damage.

  Sorry, but I totally disagree with you there.

>...Mr Nunn might
>stop to think why he has no aboriginal colleagues in computer science..

  I think there is.

>(I think I am correct here)

  I think you're not.



>do something about it rather than just sounding off.

 Sorry, I'm too busy studying :), but anyway....how would you go about this?





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              JsNO BAR----NUNN
        "It's his last semester......give him a good pat on the back"
                                  DARWIN, NT
                          nunn@pandanus.cs.ntu.edu.au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gantony@metz.une.edu.au (George Antony)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Open LETTER to Oz Immigration
Date: 27 Sep 92 02:37:34 GMT
Reply-To: gantony@metz.une.edu.au
Distribution: aus
Originator: gantony@metz.une.edu.au

From article <dyfl.717220298@munagin>, by dyfl@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Daniel Y Lam):
> 
> Why should the Australian government have the authority to decide who
> can or cannot enter this particular island?  How would you feel if
> Queensland put up immgration barriers?  Or the city of Brisbane?

You appear to have an intriguing perception of the role of governments in a 
modern society.  I for one would be very much interested to read more about it.

On the other hand, either you know very little about the arrangements of
Federation in Australia or you are sufficiently piqued to ignore them.

 -------------------------------------------------------------
 George Antony    (gantony@metz.une.edu.au)
 Department of Agricultural Economics and Business Management
 University of New England, Armidale, N.S.W. 2351, Australia
 Fax: (+61-67) 711531     Phone: (+61-67) 733222 (GMT +10 hrs)
 -------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: david@iris.mincom.oz.au (David Cox)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: GST - Bloody Stupid
Date: 28 Sep 92 02:36:26 GMT
Reply-To: david@iris.mincom.oz.au ()
Organization: Mincom, Brisbane, Australia

In article <1992Sep27.121340.11665@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> 
suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter writes:

>I think the explicit nature of the GST is one of its best features
>(I can hear the howls already from the average person about
>"complicated nature" of having a quoted price and then allowing
>for the tax as a separate item on every goods/services bought.)
>but I think it would be a tremendous step forward (with or without
>the trappings of GST/fightback) if everything we purchased detailed
>exactly on the docket how much the  government creamed off.
>That should include tarrifs and other government charges as well as straight
>sales tax!
>d.s.

There is a petrol station in Bne that almost does that:

  Petrol is 30-odd c/l + government taxes

However they do not list what the gov charges are [maybe they
change too frequently 8{)}]

I don't go passed often enough to remember the exact figure,
but it sure does stand out!


djc

-- 
David Cox                    internet    : david@mincom.oz.au
From: HCHA8904593X@LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (PERRETT, ANDREW)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Jeff 'Im your man' Kennett
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:38:40 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

I like the D Generation and its a pity they ran a repeat last week (they were
all probably to drunk because of the GFinals) but to get to the point they had
a segment called "Sink the Slipper" in which Joan Kirner was to last of a line
of illuminaries to get there butt kicked. The main point being that because of
Joan , jeff kennett was going to get into power. while not exactly true (i
think that it was really all those foolish business types with there free
spending ways in the mid 80's that stuffed victoria up) i can see the point The
trouble is he is going to get in because the labour party is 'to blame' im not
assigning blami just wish people wouldnt get into retribution.. maybe
ifdemocracy might work properly then..  

"I think that we just had two hours of what democracy is supposed to be about"
Perot after two hours of boot licking by Donkeys and Elephants trying to get
him on side 
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp)
Subject: Re: Jeff Kennett's victory speech - positive and forward thinking
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:15:50 GMT

mjt@anl.oz (Michael Tuke) writes:

>From article <rfeadf.718118171@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU>, by rfeadf@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Andrew Finegan):
>> 
>> The Premier-elect, Jeff Kennett made his victory speech at about 9:50pm
>> this evening.
>> ... I guess it was just a slip of the tongue (I sincerely
>> hope it was not a Freudian slip), but instead of saying:
>> 
>> "the vast majority of Victorians....."
>> 
>> it came out as (wait for it!!!):
>> 
>> "the vast majority of VICTIMS......"
>> 
>> ANDREW FINEGAN   (Standard Disclaimers)     | RMIT Centre for Remote Sensing

>Andrew you can't have been sensing too well for the last four years!
>Jeff Kennett's statement was in the context of looking from the
>present to a more positive future. If Victorians are victims right
>now, it is of ten years of Labor incompetence, far worse than in any
>other state during that period.

The envelope please - and the winner of this years prize for post event
rationalization - Michael Tuke for attempting to explain anything Jeff
Kennett says or does.  This year the prize is a walking trip for two to
Macquarie Island.  Have fun Mike and Jeff!


--
   _--_|\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \                 Phone: 002 23 1366 - Fax: 002 34 5685
  \_.--._/                   email: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
        v <-----------------------------------------------------
From: schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Date: 29 Sep 92 03:36:27 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia

Okay, I was just wondering, I have seen Labor voted in again and again, by 
voters who appear to be afraid for change.
I have also seen Australia's economy go down and down, with Labor in charge..
I take it News readers are fairly educated.. so who are the newsreaders
voting for? I mean, you arent all going to vote Labor again?
I want to know who is best to vote for, but I mean compared to Labor anything looks attractive...

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Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp)
Subject: Re: Aboriginal policies way out of line.
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:16:09 GMT


I would really like to thank the poster of this thread.  It's not often
that such a lucid and compelling statement of just how out of touch and
ignorant of the fundamental issues some people are is seen on the net.

You have galvanised me back into action on this issue.

Cheers
John


--
   _--_|\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \                 Phone: 002 23 1366 - Fax: 002 34 5685
  \_.--._/                   email: u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
        v <-----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: ajg620@huxley.anu.edu.au (Andrew J Greinke)
Subject: Re: GST - Bloody Stupid
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 08:12:15 GMT

>cwarren@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>: 
>:            
>:            Liberal GST, a generally stupid tax, is showing signs of
>:             
>:
>:	[Many cases of how costs will rise by 15%.]
>:

Do you realise that already many goods on supermarket shelves are taxed at
15%, some at 20% or 30%.  Many of these "hidden" sales taxes will be removed
and replaced by a GST.  One advantage which I think will result is that by
bringing taxes out into the open, it will be substantially more difficult
for any government to raise them without good reason.

Under current arrangements, toilet paper is treated as a LUXURY item and
taxed at the highest sales tax rate.

By applying a single rate, GST will also simplify disputes over classification
of goods:  is an iced vo-vo a food or a confection?  Note the current fiasco
with the recent amendments to the Sales Tax legislation, and the 
fundamental drafting errors discovered in the Senate.

Cheers,
-- 
Andrew Greinke
Department of Commerce, Australian National University.
Andrew.Greinke@anu.edu.au      OR       ajg620@huxley.anu.edu.au