HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dgs@sfi.santafe.edu (David G. Simmons)
Subject: Re: RFD: Codependency (Third Attempt)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 18:28:32 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute

In article <1993Jan21.161415.11884@wam.umd.edu> angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:
>
>The group is for codependency, primarily ACoAs - Adult
>Children of Alcoholics.  There is an existing group for recovering
>addicts, and a more general alt.support, but there is nothing for
>recovering children of addicts or other codependents.  
>
I'm not sure we *need* a separate group for codependency.  The traffic
is light enough here on a.r that even significant codependency discussion
wouldn't overwhelm the existing folks.

>From the responses I got to a post to alt.recovery & alt.support,
>it appears that many co-dependents, especially Children-of-Addicts,
>are not very aware of each other's existence on the Net, and some have even
>found the discussions in alt.recovery to be actually damaging, since it 
>primarily consists of addicts themselves, whose problems are by definition
>partly the cause of the codependency. 

I strongly disagree with the premise that addicts cause co-dependents, even
partly.  Codependents *find* addicts to be with *because* they are co-dependent,
and addicts fill a place in their disease process.  Addicts do not cause normal
people to become codependent, except in the case of small children. (most
"normal" people won't have anything to do with addicts *or* codependents) Recovering
from codependency requires that we learn to exist in the same world with
addicts without it negatively affecting our lives. If we run away from all
addicts, even those in recovery, all we are learning is to run away, not
to change, grow and recover.  

> In a nutshell, it seems that
>starting such a group could provide codependents with a discussion forum 
>where they might not otherwise have known of anyone to talk to (on the Net, at 
>least) about their situations.  Users could also choose to maintain lists of
>contacts in various areas to help others on the Net get in touch with
>local support groups, etc...  
>
I think we should stick it out here in a.r and a.s.  If an addict gives you a 
hard time, learn to stand up for yourself.  I know that the first time I was 
able to tell an addict "that behavior is *not* acceptable, and it is you, not me,
that has to change" was a major turning point in recovering from codependency. 
Besides the "opportunity for growth" here, it turns out that most addicts are
*also* codependents (I'm ducking after that one! ;-), and we may be able to
spread the message better, and farther, if we stay put, and speak our own
truth about what we know and believe.  I think that all the proposed functions
of a.r.d are already provided by a.r and a.s.  

-David 				"New Mexico...Land of the flea,
dgs@sfi.santafe.edu		 home of the palgue..."
From: frank@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Frank O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Agnostics in recovery (was Re: advice wanted ...).
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:14:24 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: frankpc.jpl.nasa.gov

hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt) writes:

>He has gone to some AA meetings, but I think he feels uncomfortable
>with the importance of a "higher power" in the group's thinking (I
>suspect I would be too, for that matter).  I know that one is not
>ostracized for being nonreligious, but I can see that he may have
>difficulty identifying with a group of people who are looking to their
>religions for help in recovering.  Does anyone have a success story to
>tell having done things the AA way in spite of being very
>nonreligious?  Does anyone know of any recovery groups which cater to
>the nonreligious?

Yes, I know a number of people who have gotten sober and
stayed that way for quite a long time while being hard-headed
agnostics or atheists and having varying degrees of problems
with the AA program as it is usually experienced.

Although it's frequently said that AA is a "spiritual" rather
than "religious" program, the frequent use of prayer, mention
of God in AA literature, etc, makes many nonbelievers 
uncomfortable nonetheless.  This seems to depend on the area
of the country and style of the meeting.

In some areas, "We Agnostics" AA meetings are available.
These use the general AA framework but omit prayer and usually
include a statement that the meeting is especially designed to
accommodate those who have problems with the "higher power" concept.

There are also a few non-AA recovery organizations such as
Secular Organization for Sobriety (SOS), which use principles
more or less like those of AA (taking things a little bit at
a time, making sobriety the #1 priority, etc) but without the
HP underpinning.

Finally, there is an organization called Rational Recovery,
which seems to sort of see itself as the devil's advocate to
AA.  This is based on the Rational-Emotive Therapy (RET)
concept established by the psychologist Albert Ellis which
encourages the participant to "dispute" irrational thought
patterns which are believed to be at the heart of his/her
problems.  I don't know anyone personally who has been
through this program.

Best of luck to your friend!

Frank
frank@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Subject: SUBJECTS NEEDED FOR PSYCH. STUDY
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:24:43 GMT

I am posting the following announcement for my sister.  She is looking  
for subjects, primarily in the New York City area (the closer to  
Manhattan, the better) or in the vicinty of Princeton, NJ, to  
participate as subjects in a study on the psychology of the postpartum  
period.

At this point, my sister is in greatest need of subjects for the  
control group --females between 18 to 40 years of age, with no  
children, who are not presently pregnant.  If you can participate or  
if you know people who can participate, please read on.  The telephone  
nunber to call is listed below.

Thanks,
Phil Menos

--------------------------------------------------------------
                      SUBJECTS NEEDED

I AM A Ph.D. CANDIDATE IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, CONDUCTING A
STUDY OF THE POSTPARTUM PERIOD, A LONG NEGLECTED AREA OF
RESEARCH.

                IF YOU ARE 18-40, FEMALE AND

O    EITHER RECENTLY GAVE BIRTH TO A CHILD (WITHIN THE LAST
     NINE MONTHS)

O    OR DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN AND ARE NOT CURRENTLY PREGNANT,

YOU ARE ELIGIBLE TO PARTICIPATE IN A STUDY THAT WILL TAKE 15
MINUTES OF YOUR TlME WITH ME.  AFTER THIS BRIEF MEETING, YOU
WILL BE GIVEN A PACKET OF PSYCHOLOGICAL INVENTORIES THAT WILL
TAKE 40 MINUTES TO 1 1/2 HOURS TO COMPLETE (DEPENDING ON
WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE ABBREVIATED VERSION OR NOT), AT
YOUR LEISURE.  THE PACKET WILL BE SELF-ADDRESSED AND STAMPED.
WHEN YOU ARE DONE, JUST PUT IT INTO THE MAILBOX.

AFTER THE REBULTS HAVE BEEN ANALYZED, IF YOU WISH, I WILL
CALL YOU TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE ABOUT
THE 5TUDY AND TO GIVE YOU FEEDBACK REGARDING YDUR TYPICAL
MODES OF FUNCTIONING ALONG VARIOUS DIMENSIONS OF PERSONALITY,
YOUR TYPICAL SHIFTS IN PERSONALITY ORGANIZATION UNDER STRESS,
YOUR PERSONAL STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND OTHER PATTERNS OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONING SUGGESTED BY YOUR RESPONSES.

THE STUDY IS BEING CONDUCTED ALONG AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL
ASSOCIATION RESEARCH GUIDELINES.  ALL DATA IS STRICTLY
CONFIDENTIAL.  YOU WILL BE IDENTIFIED WITH A CODE NUMBER.
INFORMATION LINKING YOU WITH THIS CODE NUMBER WILL BE
DESTROYED ONCE WE HAVE HAD OUR TELEPHONE FEEDBACK SESSION.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING OR GETTING MORE
INFORMATION, PLEASE CALL:

                           Micka
                        (212) 666-2174.

              PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO A FRIEND.

                        THANK YOU.

--------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
G. Philippe Menos [gpmenos@firestone.princeton.edu]
Systems Administrator,   Princeton University Libraries
voice:  609-258-5183     fax:  609-258-5571
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: breadyg@sage.cc.purude.edu (george b.)
Subject: school personal statements
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Organization: purdue comm dept
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:04:23 GMT

	things are going well in the recovering life so far.  interesting
experience for me now is composing those "personal statements" so beloved
by law schools, grad schools, etc.  who is this guy in my statements?  i
want to marry him...and i'm already married (and hetero, besides).  anyway,
seriously folks, it has been a valuable experience to put down on paper the
positive side of recovery.  sure, i've felt it was a positive thing for
quite some time, but writing it down for other, likely non-alcohol/drug
addicts to see -and judge- is an interesting exercise.  how to be humble,
without being self-serving, servile, scraping, egotisitic, etc.?  will
admissions committees just say screw this guy, he won't be in our law
class?  or will i add to the "diversity" and be a valuable addition?  i do
feel even stronger and happier in my sobriety than before by doing this. 
some people recommended against mentioning the recovery in the letter, yet
i felt a need to explain my abysmal grades at William and Mary and other
fine institutions; not to excuse my past actions, but to show how i am a
different person today.  any advice on filling out such self-serving
statements?  good experiences, bad experiences, etc? 
	i just started playing on this newsline and look forward to seeing
meaningful exchanges here, not just the whining of people in need of a big
pity pot.  oh yeah, the treatment center i went to was really big on
codeps...both my roomates over my month-long stay were codeps...it was
great, they would agree to anything!!!    


Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (Mike - Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: advice wanted on helping alcoholic relative
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 20:41:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <ROISE.93Jan25170701@sumax.seattleu.edu>

A close relative of mine is alcoholic.  He found recovery when the rest 
of the family focused on how they had been affected and got involved w/
Alanon/ACoA.  Somehow that one thing seems to change the overall dynamic
of the situation.  Berating him, hiding the bottles, encouraging him, 
confronting with the cold hard truth, pleading/begging, weeping, 
raging..all of these "tactics" failed miserably.  Yet when the
rest of the family began to "Live and Let Live", things started to
happen which eventually culminated with the alcoholic seeking recovery
via AA and later going through a treatment program.  

Alcoholism is a FAMILY disease.  Where there is an alcoholic, there
are several people who have been badly affected by alcoholism 
(family, friends, coworkers).  To simply focus on what HE needs to do is
a misnomer.  If someone loves an alcoholic, I feel the best thing they
can do is find out about recovery for THEMSELVES.  Sometimes, the 
recovery ripples out and pierces the fog-veil of even the active 
alcoholic.
From: freud@pilot.njin.net (Bob)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: test
Summary: test
Keywords: ezdzt
Date: 24 Jan 93 20:25:04 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Just a test
From: GE.KMK@forsythe.stanford.edu (Kathy Kermit 5-0623)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: re: suggestion for a bb for codependency
Date: 22 Jan 1993 11:00:54 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Hi, there,

I think alt.recovery is a dandy place to talk about codependency
issues.  In fact, it used to be a much broader arena for discussion
than it seems to be these days.

As a non-chemically-dependent person who participates in 12-step
groups from time to time, I celebrate the diversity of opinions and
sharing that can take place, regardless of the meaning in the * of
*A (something anonymous).  I recall a year or so back, that there
was heavy discussion on this bb regarding incest survivorhship, for
example.

Alt.recovery is _not_ AA.  It just happens that at the moment, many
of the posts are from people who are working their hardest on
sobriety, one day at a time.  In the past, we have heard from people
with co-dependency problems.

My vote would be to suggest that anyone who has recovery-related
materia, t(even codependency stuff) to try sharing it here and see
what happens.  I suspect that a lot of readers of this bb would be
interested, and able, to share thoughts on a broad range of recovery
issues.

Kathy
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3847 alt.support:1653 alt.config:8665 news.groups:26481
From: Sheri Mathos <Sheri_Mathos@me.umich.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support,alt.config,news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Codependency (Third Attempt)
Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:21:50 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Medical Center
Distribution: world
     <1993Jan23.191743.25644@news.uiowa.edu>
     <1993Jan26.175535.28129@cbfsb.cb.att.com> <yrds0p@SantaFe.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.214.24.70
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1

In article <1993Jan21.161415.11884@wam.umd.edu> Angela I.,
angelai@wam.umd.edu writes:
>
>From the responses I got to a post to alt.recovery & alt.support,
>it appears that many co-dependents, especially Children-of-Addicts,
>are not very aware of each other's existence on the Net, 

I have only been reading this newsgroup since the beginning of September
but I have noticed that there isn't a lot of conversation on CoDA or
ACoA.  I am also an addict so I do get a lot out of the
information/personal experiences that people write about.  I do recall
seeing one post from someone looking for other ACoA's and not seeing any
response(Not to say there hasn't been others that I have missed).  Maybe
having a sep. newsgroup would draw more discussions on CoDA/ACoA topics. 
Even tho this group is labeled Recovery at first glance it does appear to
be an "addicts only" group.

and some have even
>found the discussions in alt.recovery to be actually damaging, since it 
>primarily consists of addicts themselves, whose problems are by
definition
>partly the cause of the codependency.  
I, only being "one" disagree with this statement.  I get quite a bit out
of these discussions, both for my own addiction issues and ACoA issues. 
Coming from an alcoholic home it is good for me to listen to other
alcoholics, it helps me to relate/understand my father's disease.  I am
not by any means saying that my view is the only view.  But it is mine.  


In a nutshell, it seems that
>starting such a group could provide codependents with a discussion forum 
>where they might not otherwise have known of anyone to talk to (on the
Net, at 
>least) about their situations.  Users could also choose to maintain
lists of
>contacts in various areas to help others on the Net get in touch with
>local support groups, etc...  

YES!!!  I have only met 2 people on this group that are ACoA.  And I have
pounced on them excitedly.  

Just my own opinion of course............
From: hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: advice wanted on helping alcoholic relative
Date: 25 Jan 93 09:25:28 GMT

Hi folks, forgive me for posting when I've never looked at this group
before today, but I'd like to throw out a few questions.  I just read
a previous thread on "how to help an alcoholic", and I understand the
general advice that "you can't REALLY help one, he/she has to help
him/herself".  However, without falling into the trap of blaming
myself for anything, I do feel that it is possible for me to help in
some small ways.  I'd like to ask a few specific (though lengthly,
sorry) questions.

It took him (this relative of mine) a long time to realize that going
cold turkey might be best, and he had made a commitment to some of us
close to him not to drink again for the foreseeable future; this lasted
about a month (as far as I know) but has just been broken (I hear
second-hand) and I am trying to decide how to react.  Any advice?  (I
will likely react pretty soon in the best way I can think of, but I am
still curious for future reference...)

He has admitted there is a problem for a while, but is perhaps in
denial in viewing his alcohol abuse as a symptom of other problems and
less of a problem in and of itself than I might think.  It is true
that his pattern of getting drunk when depressed, and behaving
inappropriately (often abusively), did not exist, to the best of my
knowledge, until the breakup of his marriage which began roughly 3
years ago.  Until recently I had been willing to accept the notion
that it was more important to deal with the sources of his stress than
to deal with the alcohol problem head-on, but I am beginning to think
otherwise.  Has anyone had the experience with oneself or someone else
that alcohol abuse has arisen as a stress-related problem and has
ceased to be a problem when the source of stress has been resolved?
Does anyone feel that hoping for this scenario is entirely
unrealistic?

He has gone to some AA meetings, but I think he feels uncomfortable
with the importance of a "higher power" in the group's thinking (I
suspect I would be too, for that matter).  I know that one is not
ostracized for being nonreligious, but I can see that he may have
difficulty identifying with a group of people who are looking to their
religions for help in recovering.  Does anyone have a success story to
tell having done things the AA way in spite of being very
nonreligious?  Does anyone know of any recovery groups which cater to
the nonreligious?

Well, this is getting rather lengthly.  I appreciate the concern of
anyone willing to look through it and offer advice.  I think I'll
check out Al-Anon too, though I get the sense that some here may be
opposed to their philosophy--any input on that would be appreciated
too.  Thanks for your time,

Brian Hunt
hunt@ipst.umd.edu

Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support,alt.config,news.groups
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: RFD: Codependency (Third Attempt)
Followup-To: alt.recovery,alt.support
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:14:15 GMT

I would like to propose the creation of a new newsgroup.
For some reason, this has not appeared in any of the newsgroups the last
two times I posted it, so please let me know if it gets through...

The group is for codependency, primarily ACoAs - Adult
Children of Alcoholics.  There is an existing group for recovering
addicts, and a more general alt.support, but there is nothing for
recovering children of addicts or other codependents.  

From the responses I got to a post to alt.recovery & alt.support,
it appears that many co-dependents, especially Children-of-Addicts,
are not very aware of each other's existence on the Net, and some have even
found the discussions in alt.recovery to be actually damaging, since it 
primarily consists of addicts themselves, whose problems are by definition
partly the cause of the codependency.  In a nutshell, it seems that
starting such a group could provide codependents with a discussion forum 
where they might not otherwise have known of anyone to talk to (on the Net, at 
least) about their situations.  Users could also choose to maintain lists of
contacts in various areas to help others on the Net get in touch with
local support groups, etc...  

I propose that the new group be called alt.recovery.codependency,
since it is meant to be including but not limited to CoAs, and because
it is a spinoff of alt.recovery.

This is a Request For Discussion (RFD in the header).  If there appears to be 
sufficient interest, I will call a vote in about a month.

Thank you.

Angela Iannaconi
(I don't think my .sig file is working.  My email is angelai@wam.umd.edu)

-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: emil@shell.portal.com (emil rojas)
Subject: Re: advice wanted on helping alcoholic relative
Organization: Portal Communications Company
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:38:21 GMT



I believe the best thing you can do is get yourself and any other
frinds and relatives to go to some Al-anon meetings.  I'll repeat
my/the standard advice because I believe it to be true.  Before you go
commit to going to several different meetings (no less than 3), they
are ALL different.  Al-anon is like the News - each group has what the
people there bring to it, and it offers the safty of (some) anonymity.

AA and Al-anon are NOT religious groups in any standard sense of the word.
But the people you meet there are likely to have deeply held spritual beliefs.

I have heard of all sorts things working as people's higher powers, many
of them having little to do with God.

Alcoholism is a very complex disease.  There is no question in my mind
that it is stress related, on the other hand I is not stress caused!

I also recomend that you go out to your local book stores and find some
books on co-dependence.  Many stores have a recovery section these days.
You will also find intersting information about alcoholism near by.



--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Emil Rojas  emil@shell.portal.com (408) 973-0603
Cognisys Software Systems Development
San Jose, CA 95129
From: esteward@next11.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: The Promises
Date: 23 Jan 93 03:17:16 GMT

In article <727752416snx@fabcab.demon.co.uk> nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk  
(Nik Shaylor) writes:
> Can someone tell me which Book, and what page, the AA promises are to be
> found?
> 
> Thanks,
> --
> Nik Shaylor.  The Old School House, School Lane,    
nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk
>               Salisbury, Wilts. SP1 3YA, UK.       +44 722 326577       

Big Book  (real title, Alcoholics Anonymous)

Pretty sure PP83-84.  They come after the 9th step in the chapter How it  
Works.

elaine <esteward@isi.edu>  NOT return address on this post.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: 30 DAYS
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:13:30 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

This seems like a miracle to me.  After so many failures, a success at last.

I am grateful to the AA program and to whatever HP there may be in my life
for allowing this to happen!

Mark

Newsgroups: la.general,la.eats
From: Kenneth Gordon <kgordon@courier6.aero.org>
Subject: Re: Comedy Clubs
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A785B52AB7048577@kengordon.aero.org>
X-Xxdate: Fri, 22 Jan 93 22:28:58 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:29:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.194025.11384@muddcs.claremont.edu> David Pletcher,
dpletche@jarthur.claremont.edu writes:
>No flame intended (just a second opinion) but note the keyword
>"entertainment".  Comedy and Magic Club is a nightclub that does some
>comedy, but it's not a comedy club.  If you want to see a comedy show
>I'd suggest someplace else like the Improv (or just look in the phone
>book; there are several comedy clubs in Hollywood on Sunset I think.)
>If you're just interested in a "show" with magic, impressions, singing,
>comedy, etc., Comedy and Magic Club should be OK.

No flame taken.  But, the C&M club is _definately_ a comedy club.
Most shows there also include at most one non-comedian who 
performs a magic act.  This is actually a nice feature that 
breaks up the other 3-4 stand-up acts.  Many comedians do 
impressions, at the C&M club and everywhere else.  In over 20 
trips to the C&M club, though, I have never seen a singer on stage 
or advertised.  Moreover, the level of talent at that place is 
top-notch.  They only include professional comedians (and 
magicians).

People I have seen there include Jay Leno, Garry Shandling, Tim 
Allen, Jerry Seinfeld, Paula Poundstone, Rosie O' Donnell, Harry 
Anderson, the "5 stages of drinking" guy, Pauly Shore (although I 
hesitate to call him a comedian), and many other notables I can't 
think of off-handedly.

--
Ken Gordon                 | 
kgordon@courier6.aero.org  | 186,282 miles per second 
The Aerospace Corporation  |  - Not just a good idea,
Disclaimer:  The usual     |    it's the law!
Newsgroups: la.general,la.eats