From: jbrown@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Crusades; Once more into the breach
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:00:11 MST

In article <9208140532.AA15381@csufres.CSUFresno.EDU>, davec@csufres.CSUFresno.EDU (David C. Choweller) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.181452.17042@csrd.uiuc.edu> Greg Skinner writes:
> :>... I mainly agree with Mr. LeRoy.  Leviticus does
> :>prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality.  And Jesus said something
> :>about not changing one jot nor tittle of the Law, and that he came
> :>not to change the Law, but to uphold it.  And Christians claim that they
> :>follow the teachings of Jesus.  Therefore, Christianity prescribes the
> :>death penalty for homosexuality.  What's wrong with my logic? 
> :
> :(In every translation I have seen, the word is "fulfill," not
> :"uphold.")

Jesus fulfilled the moral requirements of the Law by living a sinless life,
and He fulfilled the justice requirements of the Law by suffering the penalty
of our (believers') sins in our place.  He fulfilled the Law so that, as Paul
says, we are no longer under Law but under Grace.

> :
> :Your logic is fine.  I got nothing so clear from Mr. LeRoy.  He
> :himself would have a problem with the last part because it relies on a
> :step from "Christians...." to "Therefore, Christianity...."
> :
> :You logic is clear and we can continue if you like.  I begin by
> :stating that Christianity includes most or all of the teachings of
> :Paul, one of its founders.  Do we agree?
> :
> :If so, I note that we have words from Paul to the effect "you are no
> :longer under the law, but under grace."  Also, Christianity holds that
> :Jesus Christ payed all penalties for moral wrongs with his death.
> 
> But the people who were executed for homosexual acts, per orders of
> the God Christians believe in, had to pay the ultimate price for their
> moral "wrongs."

How do you know they paid the "ultimate price" for their actions?  What is
the "ultimate price"?  Is it death?  If so, then it is tantamount to assuming
that God doesn't exist.  For if death is the ultimate price, and all people
will die anyway, then God is powerless to exact a greater penalty.   So if
there is no God, or if there is only a powerless God (which is essentially
the same thing), then you can't blame God for the deaths of Israelite
homosexuals, nor can you blame Christianity.  You have to blame the poor,
misguided Israelites.

But death is not the "ultimate price", *separation from God for eternity*
(hell) is.  And you have no indication from scripture that Israelites who
were judged harshly in this life have not been redeemed in the next.  Perhaps
God wanted them to pay for their sin in this life so their place in eternity
with Him would not be affected.  You have no idea if these people "paid the
ultimate price" or not.  In fact, it is more likely that they are far better
off than you will be when you stand before God yourself.

> 
> :This happened before Christianity even existed.  From these I conclude
> :that Christianity does not prescribe the death penalty for homosexual
> :acts.
> 
> Do you mean that it does not prescribe the death penalty for homosexuals
> acts, *if* this punishment is administered out by humans?  In and of itself,
> the death penalty for homosexuals is just?  Further, why do Christians
> consider it allowable for OT followers to execute homoseuxals, while
> modern Christians are prohibited from doing this?

The OT Israelites were under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses.  It prescribed
exact and immediate penalties for sin.  The reasons that God gave the early
Israelites the Law in such a form are varied and could be discussed at length,
but are somewhat tangent to the discussion here.

The early Israelites were ruled by God directly through the Law as it was
interpreted for them by the Judges.  It was God's authority which gave the
Judges the power to enforce the penalties of the Law.

When the period of the Israelite kings began, elements of religion (the Law)
and government (the kings) were separated.  The king still ruled by the
authority of God vested in him through the anointing given him by the prophets,
but God no longer directly ruled the nation of Israel.  The kings were free to
exercise their own autonomy and moral free will which they did.  As the kings
moved further and further from the moral precepts and the penalties prescribed
by the Law, the more into sin and rebelliousness toward God they fell.  This
ultimately led to the judgment of the kings and Israel as a nation.

With the judgment of Israel, and the removal of it as being a "light for the
Gentiles", the elements of law, judgment, and religion were forever separated,
until the Messiah sets up His kingdom.  Law and judgment were given over to
governmental authority, whether it be good or bad, and religious institutions
lost the right to judge and exact penalty according to God's authority.  This
was done in accordance with God's wisdom, for whenever the power to enforce law
and religious authority are joined together without the benefit of God's
control, the worst abuses of power and corruption occur.  This is clearly
seen in the Middle Ages when most government authority and religious authority
was held by the Pope. 

So the separation between religious authority and the state is a very real
distinction of power ordained by God.  Jesus re-affirmed this separation 
when He said to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto
God that which is God's".  This rule was pronounced in the context of 
taxation, which is the perogative of the government, but it also refers to
other powers of state delegated to it by God.  Paul affirms this when he
exhorts Christians to be submissive to government authority in all things,
except, of course, when such action would be in direct contradiction to
God's commands.  There is a type of tyrannical, evil government, given over
to the abuse of its power, that Christians are not required to obey.  This
is derived from the principle that each person is responsible before God
for their own actions.  "But I was ordered to" was not an excuse at
Nuremberg, and it won't be before God either.

So to conclude, even though a sin such as homosexuality may be wrong, it is
not the *Christian's* perogative to judge that sin nor to exact a penalty
for it.  It is the responsibility of the government to uphold moral behavior
among it citizens through the process of law and to exact punishment for the
violation of that law.  If a government chooses not to enforce laws that are
just in God's sight, then that government invites the judgment of God upon
that nation like was done to Israel and many of its neighbors.  As each 
nation is given "light" (moral knowledge), each nation is judged according
to the light they have been given.  For a nation such as America which has
been blessed by God for the moral virtue of our forebears, to fall into the
general moral decay and hedonism invites a much more severe judgment upon
our nation than those who have not received such blessing.  And regardless
of whether the government considers an action such as homosexuality to be
wrong or not, each individual is responsible for their own actions before God.


> -- 
>                                             davec@csufres.csufresno.edu
> Religion may in most of its forms be defined as the belief
> that the gods are on the side of the Government.
> 				-Bertrand Russell

Often God is not on the "side" of any government.
				-Jim Brown

(Plagiarism Disclaimer:
If someone else has previously said this, I am not aware of it.)

Regards,

Jim B.     Send copies of replies to: Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com   Thanks.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism