HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324)
Subject: Re: Understanding the Media, by Peter Brock
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 17:22:17 GMT

In article <C0C96G.78y@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.031922.25759@walter.bellcore.com> ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
>>In article <C0Ax89.JGz@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>>Usually it is appropriate to put the author's name and association 
>>>at the *beginning* of an article, especially one that is (more than)
>>>500 lines long.
>>
>>	please look at the subject line. What does "Understanding the Media,
>>	by Peter Brock" means to you? Everything else is just a retype of
>>	Mr. Brocks speach at the convention. (If there are any spelling
>
>How about association/credentials?  Peter Brock, staff writer for UPI, or
>NYTimes writer, or what?
>
>/Joe Blazic

I feel that this useless, but nevertheless please reread my previous post,
it eplains everything.
After all what realy matters is the contents of the article. NO?

Regards,  DDC.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Cutting one's own throat
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:24:36 GMT

ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
: 	There you go again, Scott! Waisting your company's time and money.
: 	I think that if you do need to take your inner aggresion on somebody,
: 	it should be on you own time. Does your boss read the netnews? Should
: 	we, as your idol Victor W. does, conntact your Postmaster? Perhaps,
: 	your postmaster will pass on the messages to your boss!

What a total idiot.  If I can't outwit you, I'll try to get you into trouble.

: 	Since you are not an independent thinkerer, I will ask you a question
: 	that may jar your little brain:

More insults.  What a deft debater.

: 	What I am trying to say, is that NOT everything as simple as it
: 	seems.

Duh.  No kidding.  I never said it was simple.

: 	Dear, Scott, please go back to your work and to your Croatian
: 	girlfriend. Having a Cro girlfriend doesn't justify your shoot-em-
: 	up cowboy behavior against the Serbian people.

1) I don't have any Croatian, Serbian, Muslim, etc. relatives.  This seems
   to be a Serb way of thinking: if you criticize what I am thinking or
   doing, you must be Croatian or otherwise have a direct contact.  What
   hogwash.  This shows closed-minded ethnic thinking.

2) I never said we should "shoot-em-up" wrt the Serbian people.  You did.

: p.s.	See, I did not forget you!

A memory like a steel trap.


Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Cutting one's own throat
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:13:48 GMT

Well, it certainly looks like the Serbs (the factions fighting in B-H)
don't really want peace.

Here is a great opportunity, where all sides have been meeting to hammer
out something agreeable to all, and they have been the major stumbling
block.

Then, in the midst of this, they stop a UN vehicle, discuss matters for
about 1.5 hours, then drag a Bosnian deputy minister out of the vehicle
and shoot him seven times.

I *can't wait* to hear the reason for this one...  it should be good.

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10451 soc.culture.jewish:24981 soc.culture.croatia:334
From: krizaj@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Can Geneva bring peace?
Date: 7 Jan 93 05:00:01 GMT
Organization: NYU Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA

I think the conference in Genevre is a farce. The venerable diplomats are trying to
create a, shall we say, "platonic" solution and such a  conference is
therefore based on wishful thinking .

First of all, the idea of mixed cantons is problematic, such as might
occur to somebody strolling across helvetic meadows and not the
Balkans. The killers and rapers seem to be, as a rule, your next door
neighbours. If Vance and Owen expect the Bosnians (or "Moslems") to
"forget and forgive" they display greater ignorance of reality and
human nature (and not only for this part of the world) than their
 predecessors at Munich and Jalta. 

I believe Bosnians do not have the least intention to stop. They want
to regroup, get better armed and they want the Serbs to give up as
many weapons as possible to the UN. 

The Serbs want to stop the intervention. They have finally perceived
things are becoming serious (if threatened earlier, the whole tragedy
would probably be prevented). They are in defensive, fighting a
desperate, merciless and increasingly more skilfull opponent; they
also face guerillas, close-to-civil war at home, and restive
Albanians, Sandjak.... The demon is out of the bottle and for them in
the long run this is a no win situation.

Croats are oppportunistic. They want to ingratiate themselves with the
West as well as take as much as they can.

EEC and UN continue their shockingly incompetent muddle. They have
tried for months to appease the guys with the most potential to kill
and the Serbs have played the game as professionals, making promises
to gain momentum and immediately breaking them. It was so much more
convenient for Owen to lecture Bosnians on good table manners.

I do not believe Serbs will actually give up their weapons, therefore
the ONLY way to "peace" will be a military defeat of the Serbs. I do
not believe Bosnian Army wants peace, therefore they have to be
physically separated from the Serbs.

Paradoxically, then, the only viable solution would be the one proposed by
the Serbs - a complete ethnic separation (at least between the latter
et les autres), something like India-Pakistan, or Pakistan-Bangladesh.
The Serbs should get substantially less land, instead of 70% they
have, or 50% they demand, they would get, say, 20-25%. Without
haggling and without blackmailing.

And peace? I hope I am mistaken, but true peace  will be difficult to
achieve. In Bosnia today (and tomorrow), peace and military weakness 
seem to be  a contradiction in terms. (Please note:When I say Serbs, 
I of course talk about Karadzic
and his clique(s), same for Croats & Bosnians). 

What do you think?

Regards,
          David

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: krizaj@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
Subject: Two sick cliche's
Organization: NYU Medical Center, New York, NY 10016, USA
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:47:26 GMT

Two sick replies, used too often in connection to ...

#1 

A.: your brother is killing (raping,etc) a child in your own room
B.: So what, your grandfather was a rapist too
B2 (thoughtfully): please try to understand, it is so complicated

#2

C: "These people are all the same, they will fight until they are all
dead."

If the first one exhibits primitive pre-logical thinking, the second
one is equally diseased and morally reprehensible, using an (untrue)
cliche' to represent  this tragedy. But it does simplify the issues,
doesn't it? While the first problem is so "complicated", the second
one is so ..."simple".  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Cro/Mo camps
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 04:53:56 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park
Keywords: detention camps, human rights

In article <vidra.4.726341156@dutsqq.tudelft.nl> vidra@dutsqq.tudelft.nl writes:
>
>
>    Last night (1/5/93) I heard on BBC4 (Radio 4) news at 7 p.m. (6 p.m. GMT)
>a report from The Int'l Red Cross about Moslem and Croat-run detention camps 
>in former YU. The report said that more Serbs were presently held in those 
>camps than there were Moslems and Croats in the Serb-run ones. Inhuman 
>conditions were described by survivors interviewed in Montenegro (YU). (The 
>news story mentioned people held in 4 ft wide sloping ventilation shafts with 
>their own ankle deep excrement and beatings to death.) 
>
>   Has anyone else herad or read about this? 
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>   Andjelko Basic                                        T U Delft / NL
>

Apparently, the National Public Radio had the same story yesterday.  
However, nothing was said about who has how many prisoners, only the
total for all sides was estimated at about 2,000.  Presumably, these
are the prisoners left after recent Christmas releases.

The reporter in Belgrade interviewed some prisoners who were released for 
Christmas.  The story was as you have described it, with one more important
point:  the prisoners were transfered to a regular detention camp in
early August as the international attention was focused on conditions
in camps.  After that, they had no complaints about their treatment.
From the NPR story, it appears that the camp with inhuman conditions
was in Sarajevo, but that it was closed in early August.

So this was months ago.  The problems of prisoners presently held are
different.

The NPR also mentioned prisoners presently held in Sarajevo whom 
Owen and Vance would like to see released because it's so cold.  That's nice,
but what about the citizens of Sarajevo?  They are freezing to death too.
Should Sarajevo not be allowed fuel for heating?  How about electricity?
(Sarajevo heavily depends on electric heat, I'm told.)  Why don't the
Serbs besieging Sarajevo agree to let Sarajevo have adequate heat?  
That would solve a lot of problems, including cold prisoners (who will
be freed sooner or later anyway).

Josip
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1993 17:02:00 CET
From: caa_beograd@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Reply-To: caa_beograd@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: new address/phone number
Organization: Zamir = for peace, Beograd
Content-Length: 244     
X-Gateway: UC xclhh [UZERCP V3.99]

As of Monday, 11 January, the Center for Antiwar Action will have
a new address and telephone\fax number:

        Center for Antiwar Action
        Kralja Petra 46
        11000 Beograd
        tel\fax (+34)11 635 813

Please spread the word!
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:12:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan5.111244.19021
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Again, my last one for some time:


In article <1993Jan5.142108.1821@hibbs.vcu.edu> dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:
>
>Again, Communist propaganda. 

Sure.  We know that .  American went there to bring in democracy and 
they did it in the most chivalrous way. No civilians were killed, no
cities were bombed, no women were violated.  American soldiers were 
ready to risk their lifes to ... .


>Lt. Calley and others were put on trial
>while the war was in progress. Calley's massacre was stopped by an
>ordinary American soldier who turned the gatling gun of his
>helicopter gunship on the Americans under Calley's command. 

Trials after much of pressure, and other things.  Exceptions.
"Many" German soldiers were executed during WWII for refusing to execute
civilians.  So does it change general picture?

>If the whole country was a country of death you
>might explain why the US is full of Vietnamese boat people. Lots of
>Viet Cong survived capture by the Americans--which is why when ex-US

Five to ten?  
Is there American "Patris Lumumba University" where people learn how to 
think like this:

>servicemen visit Vietnam today to help remove mindfields they are
>met with friendship by members of Viet Cong and ANV. 


Sure.  Money and years of embargo, instead of paying war-reparations, have
nothing to do with this, according to you.

And I am not trying to claim that VK was much better.  The point is
that through idiotic behaviour and many mistakes Americans and French
made things much worse than it would have actually been ( Compare Cuba - 
milder case for the same thing ).


>...your stupid statements... 
>

Congratulations.


>David Latane
>dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu

 
Milan N. Stojanovic 


P.S. Keep in mind that the one who won the war wrote the history, or
in the words of judge:

"We are not here to discuss the crimes committed by us, but by 
Germans!" ( discussing the "total war" in 1946)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: spoor@dutsqq.tudelft.nl
Subject: test
Summary: test
Keywords: test
Organization: TU Delft
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 12:09:45 GMT



 test, test.
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:20:51 GMT

ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
: 	Don't be so defensive Scott. That was just a personal touch.

Change that to "personal attack".

: >: 	muslim or Croatian side did not open the doors to all of their camps
: >: 	neither? I can name some of them for you. But you would not be
: >: 	interested. Would you?
: >
: >Go ahead and name them.
: >
: 	I don't think that I will get involved in the line by line, back and
: 	forth discussions with you. I would just like to point to you that
: 	not only one side is the guilty one.

I thought as much.

: p.s.	Do READ the article "Understanding the Media," by Peter Brock, posted
: 	by me on Sunday, Jan. 3rd. 	

I already had.  The author admits he had many Serb friends, and the address
was to a group of Serbs.  I wouldn't expect anything less than what he
said.  As another poster stated, preaching to the choir.

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Another war monger
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 22:00:33 GMT

dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu (David E. Latane) writes:


>Note to Muris:

>Don't you think it's a little unhealthy wanting to watch so many
>people be raped?  Can't you state the position that a military defeat
>of Serbia is the only solution without wanting to watch people being
>raped? After the US Civil War the magnanimity of Grant and Lincoln
>and the responsibility of Lee helped prevent future ones. Your
>Balkans wars are going to go on forever, ad nauseum. Which by the way
>is the way you make me feel.

>Before you make any comments on my sisters--which seems to be your
>one little brilliant riposte--think about whether your comments are
>something you'd like to be remembered by, or whether they do anything
>to enhance support for your cause.  If you don't care about
>*that*--well, why are you posting?

>dlatane@hibbs.vcu.edu

>David Latane'

David,

You have missed the point of my posting.  I tried to express our despair.
All those preachers and false pacifists around us either don't understand
or are missleading.  You also misquoted me: I don't argue revenge in
re-raping, slaughtering, or anything similar.  I strongly oppose anything
like mass-raping of Serbian women.  But, don't tell me to negotiate and
live peacefully with rapist of my sister; this is the point you didn't
catch.  If you do so, in that case I wish you to expirience the same.

And, again, we are fed up with your false humanism and paternalism.  You
argue with me, whereas the few more lines above or below my name in the same
group you can easily find genuine fascist.

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Re: Yale sources for Serbian Holocaust studies
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:54:39 GMT

In article <1iock9INN38h@GOLEM.MATH.YALE.EDU> wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu
(Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>Relatively few sources are available concerning the Holocaust in
>Serbia during WWII --- in particular, none published in Belgrade that
>I am aware of --- but there are a few sources by people who escaped
>from Yugoslavia. 

There is a book regarding especially the Holocaust in Serbia and
the role of German Wehrmacht. It went to bookstores last year and is 
written by a German historian. There was a long article in "Zeit" about
it. (I do not remember any details anymore). The situation in Serbia 
was exceptional in so far that this was the only place where it was
the Wehrmacht (German army) and not the SS who assembled and killed Jews.
I remember one part describing how the whole operation had to be done
in secret so that the Serbian population does not notice what is going on
and especially where. The Wehrmacht feared that Serbian resistance
would attack them and try to free the Jews.

Srdjan Mitrovic
From: wsbusup2@rw8.urc.tue.nl (Boudewijn Wayers)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Who knows Kuharic or Selimoski
Keywords: puzzle
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:12:42 GMT
Reply-To: wsbusup2@urc.tue.nl


I am working on a puzzle for which I need to finish a sequence of
names. The names Kuharic and Selimoski are given and i need a third
name to finish the sequence. If you know the third name please let me
know via e-mail. If i get an answer I will post it to this group.

Thanks in advance, Boudewijn Wayers.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:28:00 CET
From: ppm_pancevo@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Reply-To: ppm_pancevo@zamir-bg.comlink.de
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: An Active Group
Organization: Zamir = for peace, Beograd
Content-Length: 907     
X-Gateway: UC xclhh [UZERCP V3.99]

It is difficult to understand why our group:

	* Pancevo Peace Movement *

has not been included under Vojvodina, as our activity is well
known both to national and international groups and centres.
Please read the information on our activities 
in msg. no 1365 in this conference
or in msg. no. 614 under soc/culture/yugoslavia, both
under the title PPM_PANCEVO

Also please note our address:

PPM_PANCEVO:International contacts:

Mailing address:               Telephones:
Pancevo Peace Movement         Voice:        +38 13 46 444
c/o M S Mandrino               (1800 - 0100 h Cent.Europ.Time)
P O Box 14                     Fax:          +38 13 46 444
26000 Pancevo                  (2100 - 0700 h Cent.Europ.Time)
Yugoslavia


E-Mail:

from Z-NET:          PPM_PANCEVO@ZAMIR-BG.ZER
from INTERNET etc:   PPM_PANCEVO@ZAMIR-BG.COMLINK.DE
from APC:            PPM_PANCEVO@ZAMIR-BG.COMLINK.APC.ORG

Peace!

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: starovic@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Gradimir Starovic)
Subject: Re: Democracy (Dubrovnik)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:54:24 GMT

In <1993Jan6.135308.13174@topaz.ucq.edu.au> leovacd@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:



>It is worldwide known fact that the ancient town of Dubrovnik was 
>shelled over a several months despite the fact that there were no 
>military targets in the town itself. It was made deliberately to 
>destroy this exceptional piece of World heritage just because it 
>had Croatian flag. UNESCO commission still works on the estimates 
>of damages, and some of the damaged buildings in the town simply 
>could not be repaired - they're lost.


Can you mail the list of buildings destroyed by "a several months"
shelling? And if possible the list produced by the UNESCO commission,
NOT by the "Tudjman commission".

What is certain is that the Orthodox church in Dubrovnik has been 
destroyed completely. Houses and other property of the Serbs in 
Dubrovnik have also been destroyed. But that is not result of any 
shelling. It's just a part of normal cleansing that the Croats do from 
time to time to make their country more beautiful.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324)
Subject: Re: Cro/Mo camps
Keywords: detention camps, human rights
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 06:12:50 GMT

In article <vidra.4.726341156@dutsqq.tudelft.nl> vidra@dutsqq.tudelft.nl writes:
>
>
>    Last night (1/5/93) I heard on BBC4 (Radio 4) news at 7 p.m. (6 p.m. GMT)
>a report from The Int'l Red Cross about Moslem and Croat-run detention camps 
>in former YU. The report said that more Serbs were presently held in those 
>camps than there were Moslems and Croats in the Serb-run ones. Inhuman 
>conditions were described by survivors interviewed in Montenegro (YU). (The 
>news story mentioned people held in 4 ft wide sloping ventilation shafts with 
>their own ankle deep excrement and beatings to death.) 
>
>   Has anyone else herad or read about this? 
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>   Andjelko Basic                                        T U Delft / NL
>

Yes, I also have heard on BBC, that Mr. Vance at the Belgrade news conference
on Jan. 6th have brought up the issue of muslim/Cro run concentration camps
(detention, or POW camps if you insist). There he claimed that the muslim/Cro
side at this time hold more prisoners  than the Serb side (Do you hear that Tim
Walker and Scott Linn?). Apparently, Mr. Vance was greately concerned with
the muslim run camp on the outskirts of Sarajevo, where Serb prisoners were
being held in the GRAIN SILO. Of course, no heat nor hygiene facilities are
available at the camp.

	Mr. Walker, would you voice your opinion on this?

DDC

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: bihkyan@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Yang Yuanxin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: CCTV
Date: 11 Jan 1993 13:38:32 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

In article <5d7388f0.1b2f0@digital.sps.mot.com> chen@digital.sps.mot.com (Jinfu Chen) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.044045.23491@news.cs.brandeis.edu> xi@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>Watched few days CCTV program through XiaoErDuo (little ear, sattelite 
>>dish), they are so good. The only problem is only one hour. 
>
>I believe they will increase broadcast hours to tweleve.  I wonder who is
>payig the satellite bills, considering no commercial is shown at all :-)
>
  Not correct, they have commercials.      
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: z0yin001@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: test
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:15:18 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville


Hello
From: xh@uirvld.csl.uiuc.edu (Xiao Ping Hu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: What I think about Qi Gong and Yan Xin
Date: 6 Jan 1993 05:54:49 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: uirvld.csl.uiuc.edu
Keywords: Qi Gong Yan Xin

Hi, Qi Gong Again. I have several friends who have been practicing
Master Yan Xin's Bi Gu (eating nothing). I myself am interested in learing
this art so that I do not worry about making a living. Tell you something,
after coming to US, I myself rarely enjoyed a meal though half of my
day time is related to eating. Well I'll tell you later how master Yan's
method works for me.

Somebody does have a big mouth,but this does not mean everything 
he talks is fake. Master Yan does enjoy talking -- If I have so many
disciples, I am happy to talk all the way too. Sure enough, I'll
follow him for a while to see if I do save money from fasting.

Xiaoping
From: JXL19@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Looking for Ms Jie Min [from J-M]
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:28:07 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

J-M L is looking for Ms Jie MIN who came from Beijing in 1988. If you get this
message, please contact me in [JXL19@psuvm.psu.edu]. Please......