HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:52:15 GMT

avi@seal.imagen.com writes:

>In other words, factually and logically speaking, if you say you're a vegetarian
>becuase its healthier, that's fine. If you say your'e a vegetarian because you
>"love animals and think killing animals is bad" you're either an ignorant (about
>plants life) or a hypocrite !  (I realize that sounds pretty strong, but those ARE
>the facts).

AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
How many times do I have to make my point before this person will listen to
me?  It doesn't seem very complicated.
Animals are higher on the food chain.
EATING ANIMALS KILLS MORE PLANTS THAN EATING PLANTS.
What does she/he think?  They grow steaks in factories?  NO!  They feed them
bushels and bushels of PLANTS!
This person's argument defeats itself.  The more you think that plants are
conscious, the more you should not eat meat!

I still want to know, is avi@seal a vegetarian?

--
 Leor Jacobi                ,__o  |"Do you really want to be in america?
 leor@ocf.berkeley.edu    _-\_<,  | Somewhere else might be better.
 c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (*)/'(*) | I'm not just talking about weather."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| 		- the Fastbacks
From: osborn@socs.uts.edu.au (Tom Osborn)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Organization: Computing Sciences, Uni of Technology, Sydney.
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:45:01 GMT

jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:

>Maybe I should have stated my original point more clearly: McD's is
>driven by _profit_, pure and simple, ...

It is fairly clear that McD's operates as a profit returning franchise
arrangement - and it is a fanchise arrangement, with the franchise
formulation provided at a cost to the franchise holders, but I CAN'T
agree that the operation is driven by "_profit, pure and simple". 

It seems to me that there is a broader agenda of preserving and exploiting 
an ideology ("convenience" "consistent taste" food and meat consumption).

A shift to provide alternatives to the unquestioned acceptability of the 
meat/convenience consumer ideology would alienate their loyal market (who 
would scoff their offal at other outlets where they were less hassled) -
a profit issue. 

And above the market share and market sector management issues, it seems to 
me (in my own cynical view) that the decision-makers for McD's are PERSONALLY
OPPOSED to beneficial and enlightened changes to the culture they reside in
- whether it's a fairly radical shift, or something as simple as preparing 
one's own food from fresh ingredients with less reliance on fats, simple
sugars and other basic junk.

Tomasso - I'm sure some people agree with this and some don't. 

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: What's the Best Juicer
Keywords: {
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:38:38 GMT

altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:


>Shaula "moo" Doyle writes:

>>My mom wants a juicer for xmas, and she said she wanted to
>>check consumer report, but I figure the real experts are here.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     Good old and reliable CONSUMER REPORTS has done a review on
juicers in its December 1992 holiday issue.  The following is a
listing in order of estimated quality (models numbered the same
were judged ABOUT equal in quality; hence they are only
alphabetically listed).

     You might consider helping to support CONSUMER REPORTS by
giving our friends and loved ones a year subscription as a
holiday present (gift rates are only $16 for a one year
subscription, and $12 for each additional gift subscription).  I
personally think this is a great gift, and one that lasts
throughout the year  :-)

          C = centrifugal models
          CP = centrifugal models with a pulp ejectorcombined


     1.  Panasonic MJ-65PR (a best buy)      CP    $80
     1.  Sanyo SJ3020A (a best buy).         CP    $60
     
     2.  Acme Supreme Juicerator 5001        C    $200
     2.  Kenwood je-600                      CP    $80
     2.  Omega 1000                          C    $200
     2.  Waring JE504-1                      CP    $77
     
     3.  Braun MP80                          CP    $75
     3.  Cuisinart JE-4                      CP   $105
     3.  Hamilton Beach 395W                 CP    $32
     3.  Juiceman II by Trillium             CP   $290
     3.  Kups VitaMight 294                  CP    $30
     3.  Moulinex Deluxe 753                 CP    $51
     3.  Oster 323-08                        CP    $55
     3.  Tefal Juice Master 8310             CP    $88

The Panasonic MJ-65PR and the Sanyo SJ3020A "were a cut above the
rest and good values".  These models were easy to clean (unlike
the Braun which requires a dismantling of as many as 7 parts,
some dripping with juice and pack with pulp).  Interestingly, the
much advertised JUICEMAN II and the Oster turned out to extract
the least amount of juice from the produce.

One final note:  Remember, juice CANNOT be any better than the
produce from which it is made!  Best to buy fresh, good quality
produce, preferably organic if you can get it :-)

                                   Happy Holiday Season,

                                        ted
From: andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: meat eaters (was: Re: Gun Control Petition)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 07:45:13 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Distribution: can
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec16.025529.22415@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>Of course, if you eat shellfish or other animals you are not a vegetarian.

No, but if even if you are a weak-willed (:-))
pesce-ovo-lacto-vegetarian like myself you do share some of the same
concerns as vegans.  For instance I just got back from a conference.
At it there were two food choices: omnivore and vegetarian.  Obviously
I was a vegetarian or I would have been faced with meal after meal of
beef, pork, and chicken (and one tuna sandwich).  On the other hand I
hope there was an stricter menu I didn't find out about (although I
sort of doubt it) because their veg menu did include cheese and that
would bother lots of people.  I also skipped the soup at lunch each day
because I won't risk eating a chicken or beef based stock.

The point is that my life is impacted in ways that are similar to the
ways that vegans lives are impacted.  Unfortunately there isn't a good
word for my diet.  This, of course, leads to the usual moments like
when a colleague asked me at lunch yesterday if I ate chicken or if I
was a strict vegetarian. :-)  I told him I was strict about the things
I cared about.

I hope that people can be a little tolerant and realize what we have
in common instead of concentrating on the differences.

Also, I'm not sure if I have made the list.  There is an Andrew
McMichael listed in category 1 who doesn't like arguments and
is a good source of chinese recipes.  I also don't like arguments,
am considered a good source of Chinese recipes by my friends (hint:
hot and sour soup without pork and made with veggie bullion is just
great) but I guess I belong in category 0 (occasional fish eater).
I'm also used to having my name mispelled. :-)

Andy Michael
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: nsingh@hqsun5.oracle (Naunihal Singh)
Subject: Re: test
Organization: Oracle Corp., Redwood Shores CA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:10:23 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

>From: abulsari@shakti.ncst.ernet.in (A.Bulsari -c/o. Dr. Ramani)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
>Subject: test
>Message-ID: <Bz1B43.A0C@shakti.ncst.ernet.in>
>Date: 10 Dec 92 08:19:15 GMT
>Organization: National Centre for Software Technology, Bombay
>Lines: 1

>test

So that is why Abhay hasn't posted in a while - he's in India.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: ellis@osf.org (Ellis S. Cohen)
Subject: Re: vegan bacon?
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:04:02 GMT

Try "Fakin' Bacon", made by Lightlife.
It's made from Tempeh.
It's in the freezer of many natural food stores.
Really excellent.

  -- Ellis
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel)
Subject: Re: Veggie restaurants in Paris
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
	<1992Dec16.090616.16580@cm.cf.ac.uk>
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:51:06


In <1992Dec16.090616.16580@cm.cf.ac.uk> gedge@cm.cf.ac.uk (Geraint A
Edwards) wrote:   

> I can only ever find the one.  I've forgotten its name, but can
> offer directions:
>
> From Notre Dame (on the isle in the Seine) cross the nearest
> bridge - the road forks into four or five.  Take the second
> route on the left and you should find the restaurant on the left
> just down a little slope (that goes into a side street).  The
> restaurant is quite green as I remember it, and often covered in
> flowers.

It sounds like the Aquarius, or to be more precise: Aquarius 1. 

Could we persuade brigid@geovax.ed.ac.uk to post a summary [maybe
after her visit to Paris] ?

- Hans

--
Hans H{\"u}ttel                          - hans@iesd.auc.dk  
Mathematics and Computer Science
Aalborg University, Fredrik Bajersvej 7E,
9220 Aalborg, DENMARK                     Ad slagne veje ?


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: liana@nexus.yorku.ca (Liana Simons)
Subject: Re: Animal Experiments
Organization: York University, CS Dept. Toronto
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:24:26 GMT

Sorry for the poorly written post but I am dyslexic (sp?) and I sent this
or that one without prereading :( bad habbit but sometimes when I post I
forget, I'll try to post a better worded one with more information on
some of the research I was talking about....once again I may not agree with
it but I honestly can't find ways around some of it.

Ta for now,

Liana
From: andy@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Andy Michael USGS Guest)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: SF Bay Area comments on the World Guide to Vegetarianism - 3/5 - USA
Date: 17 Dec 1992 07:57:32 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec16.175755.7233@bmerh85.bnr.ca> mwisdom@bnr.ca (Mark Wisdom) writes:
Half Moon Bay (in SF Bay Area):
Healing Moon is a natural food store and cafe (may have some meat
products in frozen section) on Main St.  Small but well stocked and
friendly.

>Palo Alto
>---------
>Natural Food Stores:
>Whole Food Market

Also: Country Sun on California Street (not fully veggie but very
complete including hummus and felafil mix... in bulk bins and GREAT
bread).  Deli with hot and cold foods and a counter inside to eat
at and tables outside.

SF Veggie Friendly topic:
>Nyala, 39 Grove Street, Civic Square
>- A terrific Ethiopian restaurant right by the City Hall. Quite
>  possibly the best food in SF. Interesting uses of spices. They do
>  an interesting and varied vegetarian buffet for lunch and dinner.
>  It was very good, pretty cheap and filling.
Absolutely a great lunch buffet.  May even wean me away from Racha
Cafe's Pad Thai during our yearly meeting in the Civic Center
(different meeting than the one I mentioned in my last post, its
been a busy couple of weeks).  Even many omni's were happily eating
there, but perhaps they thought they were still in Salmagundi's
sandwich line (It looks like Nyala moved out of their old digs
down the block to Salmagundi's old digs, Sals seems to have vanished).
Can any true city types verify this?  A bunch of us were wondering.

>Dharma's
>- Vegetarian. Very casual.
Is this the place that wanted to be McDharma's with a not sign
over the Mc but McDonalds threatened to sue them?

Andy
From: avi@seal.imagen.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Medicine and The Mall
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:13:17 GMT
Reply-To: avi@seal.imagen.com
Organization: none

>vivianm@src.dec.com (Vivian Manganello)
>Am I correct in assuming that all the disputing is from people that are
>vegetarians?  Or people who are trying to justify their eating of meat?  
>If we do take into consideration the killing of bacteria and plant life, 
>we must also stop taking showers.  Have you realized how many microorganisms 
>that live on your body, that are dying needlessly everyday?
>
>
>Please tell me where it is that we draw the line.  

Vivian,

1. Yes, I am a (lacto) vegetarian.

2. Where do you draw the line ? That's EXACTLY my point !
   Why is killing cows and chickens unjustified but killing micro-organisms and
   plants, both of which are undoubtely ALIVE, is justified ?

   My point in all the previous posts, is to underline the fact that while
   vegetarianism is a great diet choice, one which I personally support and
   follow, NOT ALL reasons/causes for such a choice are logically justifiable.

   If one is a vegetarian for health reasons, that's fine and it makes sense,
   too. If one abstains from Meat consumption because "I love animals and I 
   don't like them dead" then one is unfortunately either an ignorant or a
   hypocrite.  

   It is not the vegetarian diet choice that is in question here but the 
   educated and logical motivation behind it.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: blackb@spot.colorado.edu (Barbara Black)
Subject: Veggie dip
Organization: University of Colorado
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:31:40 GMT

I'm looking for a nofat/lofat dip (lacto okay) for fresh veggies.  It's for
our annual Xmas party.  I always bring a veggie plate so I'll be sure to
have something to eat.

Thanks 

Barbara
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:28:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.224324.8811@oracle.us.oracle.com> 
schiles@us.oracle.com writes:

>In article <1992Dec15.144151.14538@zooid.guild.org>,
>rwaigh@zooid.guild.org (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>|>However, according to the same source, KFC fries are vegetarian, and they are
>|>planning on introducing "a vegetarian battered product".


>My mind boggles to imagine a "vegetarian battered product." 
>Batter-fried tofu chunks?   Batter-fried cauliflower?  Oh my!
>Suzanne


Ever hear of tempura?  

(The parsley is especially good.) 

--Barbara


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Hummus
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:35:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.173002.25243@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, amcmicha@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrew McMichael) writes:
> I'm not sure if this is going through, as my newsfeed is down, but:
> 
> I missed the postings that contained the hummus recipies [and
> all others].  Could one or two kind souls please E-mail me your
> favorite hummus recipie.  Thanks.

My mailer is acting up so here's a post.

1 Cup cooked garbanzo beans (chick peas)
1 Tbs Tahini (sesame seed paste)
1 Clove garlic, minced
1 Tsp fresh squeezed lemon juice

Blend everything together until the beans are almost smooth in a 
blender or food processor.  Let stand in the fridge for a few hours 
for the flavors to blend.  Serve with sliced vegies and toasted 
pieces of pita bread for dipping and scooping.

Ted Feuerbach - Scientific Systems Consultant
Disclaimer:     Monsanto didn't say this, I did!
Stupid Quote:   Money is simply alcohol in a 
                more easily transportable form.
                                            - Me


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Organization: Abo Akademi University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 08:27:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.081129.6411@abo.fi> abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:

Since I am an Indian, guilty of all that I wrote below at some time in
the past, here is an admission of that guilt :

>Indian  vegetarianism is based mostly on tradition  and dogma, lacking
>fundamental thought.  This is one reason why many Indians start eating
>everything when they move abroad.  

I did not. I moved abroad twice.

Indians don't seem to be any better
>at ethics considering the acceptability of lying, rampant  cheating of
>locals  as  well  as  tourists (I  was  both),  and  the behaviour  of
>politicians  and others who wield  power.   One would  want  to  think
>otherwise  considering  the   fact  that   India   is  the  origin  of
>vegetarianism, and that people  like Mahatma Gandhi were  from  India.
>Mahatma Gandhi is the antithesis of Indian thought today.

I tend to consider myself a follower of Mahatma Gandhi to some extent.
Ethics is important to me.

>Indians did not seem to mind the  use of leather at all, and  non-food
>use of animal products  was quite acceptable. There was also paramount
>ignorance and ignoring.  People  did  not  know what was  contained in
>various food and non-food  products,  and  even  when ingredients were
>written on food products, people never seemed to read them. 

True, at least when I was much younger.

Use of fat
>in biscuits was  either unknown or was ignored.  In India, I would not
>believe what is written as  ingredients,  but even if  it said  "fat",
>vegetarians  did  not  seem  to  bother. A  food  item  is  considered
>vegetarian  as long as it looks  vegetarian enough. Cheese (containing
>rennet) is considered vegetarian, since it looks vegetarian enough.

It was  way  back around 1977 that I had realised that  cheese was not
vegetarian, and had  stopped consuming  cheese.  I  was about 14 then.
Till then I had hardly any sense of vegetarianism.

>Indians in India don't seem to read r.f.v.  

I did, at least this time. However, posting from an unfamiliar system
was not easy.

There are only a couple of
>sites which take in the Usenet  news, and perhaps only one is able  to
>post without e-mailing.
>
>With regards,
>
>Abhay
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Veg. vitamins - HELP!!
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:19:26 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada

guy@harlqn.co.uk (Guy Snape) writes:

>A friend has just told me that he thinks the added vitamins (A D & E)
>in Flora etc. may be derived from animal carcasses.  Can anyone tell
>me if this is the case or not?  Are there any widely available truly
>vegetarian margarines?  (I'm not vegan... and often eat non-vegetarian
>cheese, for the sake of convenience.  I'm well aware that this leaves
>gaping holes in the consistency of my philosophy and lifestyle, and
>I'm working on it.  So no flames please.)


Vitamin A or ritinol.  This can come from fish-liver oil (e.g.,
shark-liver oil, egg yokes, butter, but it can also be obtained
from lemongrass, wheat germ oil, carotene in carrots, etc.
Check the distributer of the make of vitamin you're interested
in to see whether animal or non-animal sources are used.
Vegetarians are not known to have any particular risk of
A deficiency unless they eat nothing but junk foods or
engage in some cult macrobiotic diet that just eats, say,
brown rice can soya sauce.

Vitamin D or better referred to as calciferol can come from fish-liver
oil, eggs, milk, butter.  D2 is made by irradiating ergosterol,
a provitamin from plants or yeast.  D3 is from fish-liver oil.
Think about getting more sunshine or ultra-violent transparent
windows, or full spectrum bathroom lights.

I don't know about vitamin E.  It is widely distributed in plant foods
and vegetarians have no known risk of deficiency here, unlike their
omnivore counterparts.  E.g., TerraVova vitamin E oil is not only animal
free but did not involve any animal testing. .

There are some brands of vitamins that clearly state that they
are derived from plant sources only.  The following are some
brands that do not use animal ingrediants:

	Daily Nutrients by Clientele
	Wysong Vitamins & Minerals by Wysnong Medical Corp.
	Carlson Laboratores (all vitamins, minerals, supplements)
	Heritage Store (all vitamins, minerals, supplements)
	Michael's Health Products (all vitamins, minerals, supplements)
	Royal Laboratories' "Vegetarian Supplements"
	Biogime (all vitamins, minerals, supplements)

						ted
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: US Publications
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:00:20 GMT


Some good magazines to subscribe to are "the Animals Agenda", and
"Vegetarian Times", and maybe even "E: the Environmental Magazine".
You may find products listed all over the magazine to let you know
what's new and what's available.  Vegetarian Times is unfortunately
not a very good magazine.  It is very ovo-lacto oriented, and most of
the time the information is not very useful.

That's the best I can think of, in addition to the list of books ted
posted.  I would probably go with the PETA caring consumer guide
myself.

--
Tara McDermott                                  tara@starburst.umd.edu

Sweet and sweet is their poisoned note, the little snakes' of silver throat,
in mossy skulls that nest and lie, ever singing "die, oh! die."
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker)
Subject: Re: McDonalds Veggie burger
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:03:45 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Dec14.150334.5131@Firewall.Nielsen.Com> jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:

>Maybe I should have stated my original point more clearly: McD's is
>driven by _profit_, pure and simple, and I am very skeptical that they
>would change their menu nationwide in order to capture a market that is
>comparatively small.

I understood your point, and my point is that the market is a lot
bigger than you think--I'n sure it's at least 5 times what it was
only a few years ago and growing exponentially--and McDonald's
entry into the market will create incredible growth and get them
more of a market than even they dream about.

>Note that this is only my opinion regarding McD's altruism.


I would never be so cruel as to accuse McDonald's of altruism. 
They're in business to make bucks, like a good business should be.

--Proud capitalist and vegetarian, Lee
-- 
Lee Daniel Crocker    | Free minds; free bodies; free trade.
leecr@microsoft.com   | Libertarian Party  1-800-682-1776
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: coleman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michele Coleman)
Subject: Re: Medicine & the Mall
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:07:35 GMT

    Uh...perhaps it's time to take this discussion elsewhere, like 
talk.politics.animals.  I understand that that group was created to
get threads like these out of this group.

--Michele Coleman
From: tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Looking for a good meatless cookbook
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:45:41 GMT

artemis@netcom.com (Michelle Dick) writes:

>In article <tara.724457811@starburst.umd.edu> tara@starburst.umd.edu (Tara McDermott) writes:
>>... some recipes come from
>>renounced vegetarian restaurants in the US....

>Hee hee.

>Sorry to highlight your mistyping, Tara, but it's *funny*.

Ha ha.  Sigh.  I should have proofread it.  My mistake.  Fine.  Go
ahead and laugh at me!

>--
>Michelle Dick
>artemis@netcom.com
--
Tara McDermott               
tara@starburst.umd.edu       
I eat tofu, and I vote.
Xref: sparky rec.food.veg:11260 talk.politics.animals:10300