From: soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 23:43:27 GMT

9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil) writes:

[...]

>In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
>>ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi) writes:

>>>Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>>>: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to
>>>: *replace* Arabic with Lebanese.  The point that was made was that you
>>>: people are trying to reinvent the wheel!  As to your point about
>>>: Arabic and ASCII, I think you ought to look at the smart Japanese.

>I think that you have a point here: would you be ready to help show that Arabic
>can be used in its native form on computers as Japanese is, with a minimal 
>investment in hardware and software?

I would be more than happy to contribute to this task within the
knowledge constraints I have on the subject.  And as you probably
know, such an enormous task would be next to impossible to implement
without a serious grant from a rich source to put it seriously on
course.  This would be a wonderful proposal and I am willing to be
part of it.

>>>: They were not "interested in ways to represent JAPANESE alphabet in
>>>: ASCII".  Instead, they made those dummy machines understand their
>>>: alphabet, which, of course, is the smarter way to do it!  Computers
>>>: are good because they are *general-purpose*.  They are dummy machines
>>>: that will do what you want them to do.  It should *not* be the other
>>>: way around!

[...]

>>You actually believe people would be interested in reading writing
>>Arabic using Latin characters, aren't you?  This is really beginning
>>to sound like a good comedy.  Ayman, just because you and other
>>people think it is a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
>>characters, that does *not* mean everybody else is interested.  I
>>hope this will not shock you now that I have seen *we* and *majority*
>>being consistenly used in your post.

>The majority of us are interested in using Arabic on the Net using the technique
>available to that same majority. When a better technique will be practical, 
>that is available and affordable, we will most probably use it.

Fair enough.  I take it there is no technique available at the moment.
In addition, I don't think anybody can be serious to consider the
bogus "Alphaleb" a solution!  I grant you people would be free to use
"Alphaleb" on scl just as I had friends back home who used to amuse
themselves and others by speaking Lebanese-Arabic backwords!

>>As to your problem of reading and writing Arabic on a terminal, it 
>>sounds to me more like a software problem rather than a hardware as
>>you are trying to imply.  I think the solution would probably require 
>>some researched mapping techniques between codes & fonts.

>I think that you are right. This opinion is based on the existence of Russian 
>and Hebrew software for editing mailing and "newsing". 

>>Now, you do need good terminals, ones which would support the graphical
>>display of different fonts (eg Arabic).  A Mac, Sun, Spark, Dec, IBM... 
>>workstation would definitely have these capabilities.  What kind
>>of a lousy terminal are you using anyway?  And, what makes you think
>>that the majority of people have the same terminal as you!?!?

>The majority of us have mainly access to terminal/terminal emulators that are 
>VT-100 compatible. This excludes the use of any character set other than ASCII.

A Grad student who could not afford a small MAC (eg classic) or a
88/86/286 PC with a cga (minimal graphics capabilities) is I think
hard to find.  I mean come on, any Grad student with an internet
account and an assistantship can afford to buy a PC for $400-1000.

>>One more thing, I did not see any comment from you on why you think the 
>>Japanese did not modify their alphabet so that they can write Japanese
>>using ASCII codes!  Could it be because they want to preserve their
>>alphabet/language and not let a little obstacle such as the ASCII codes
>>prevent them from doing that?  Or is it because they lacked the minds to 
>>invent an AlpahaJap?  What do you think Ayman?

>There is an AlephJap. It is commonly used by foreigners and students of the
>Japanese language who do not know the Japanese alphabets and Chinese pictograms.
>It is much simpler than AlephLeb, as the original phonetics are simpler than the
>Arabic ones. I doubt that is of much use among the native speakers -maybe when
>a Japanese editor is not available?-.

If I understand you correctly, the AlphaJap thing is not created by
the Japanese themselves but by people who use Latin Characters in
their native language in order to help themselves figure out the
phonetics/pronounciation of the Japanese language.  If so, then this
is a totally different story and I have no problem with that at all.
It is different because it is used by others (than the Japanese) in
order to cope with the Japanese language and not by the Japanese in
order to cope with the stupid ASCII codes.  I guess the bottom line is
that for me, the preservation of the beautiful Arabic language is a
lot more important than being able to read/write it on a dumb (no pun
intended :-) vt100 terminal emulator.  That barring the real issue
behind the creation of a new divisive so-called "Alphaleb" that serves
the sole malicious purpose of isolating ourselves as Lebanese from our
surroundings.  I just thought I (and few others) had to point out that
this ploy is moot and will not go beyond the few entertaining minutes
we have so far spent talking about it.

>>>and software, which the majority of us are not interested in doing?
>>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>>I am not sure what is the psychological factor that makes you Ayman
>>think that when you express an opinion, it would be that of a majority!

>The majority of us are either poor students, many in poor universities/colleges,
>those that are working might not be ready to invest to much in hardware.
>This leaves the software side if we can find/make it freeware/shareware.

It is sad to say that I am still a member of the same poor club you
belong to Alex.  However, despite the meager stipend I make from my
research assistantship, I was able to invest in a Mac and so did few
of the Grad students who work around me.  It is feasible guys, if I
did it, anyone else can.  Besides, I do confess that the U of I is a
wonderful place which is rich in equipments but I can hardly imagine
any college in the States that does not have a lab or two with good
workstations free for students to use!  So I don't thing the
affordibility/availability issue is relevant in this case at all.

>When do we start?    :)

>>>--
>>>Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
>> 
>>Khaled

>alex khalil  alex@dt.uh.edu
>U. of Houston-Downtown

-- 
+-----------Khaled Soufi-------------+--------------------------+
|   Department of Computer Science   | email: soufi@cs.uiuc.edu |
| U. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign | phone: (217)244-2274 (W) |
+------------------------------------+--------------------------+