From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotgun amo sequence.other view.
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: amdahl.a2qc03jub9DB00
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


hayes@brandonu.ca writes:

#Wish to register disagreement with Barry concerning size and type of load,
#particularly in view of his urban environment shooting parameters.  The 
#type of load suggested could/would readily penetrate gyprock, most siding, etc
#and raise potential danger to next door neighbor and her/his sleeping guard
#dog.  Suggest that 12 gauge loaded with #2 or #4 shot as anit-personnel round
#has in the environmental constraints of an indoor usage all the stopping
#potential appropriate to task being discussed.  Controllable discharge of
#20 gauge magnum using shot specified would meet most human target knock down
#capacities even remotely possible.  As well, lowers threat potential to that
#sleeping dog next door to much less than the near "anti-armor" capabilities
#Barry is suggesting.  Prefer # 2 or #4 because of superior pattern and more
#shot density. 

The use of #2 or #4 bird shot would be a reasonable solution if you were
guaranteed opponents wearing light clothing at close ranges.  I don't believe
that I have the luxury of depending on that guarantee.  Bird shot has
documented problems defeating heavy layers of clothing and retaining enough
energy to provide significant penetration to disable large people.

Going back to the problem statement that I was addressing:

   * In my suburban environment the most likely engagement range is 10 meters
     or less, but the engagement envelope can extend out to 40 meters.  Light
     weight shot loses energy quickly over distance.

   * It is possible that I might have to defeat auto glass or sheet steel.
     There have been two drive by shootings in my neighborhood in the last six
     months.

   * Most angles of engagement from my suburban environment present a minimal
     risk of wall penetration.  A combination of significant distances and/or
     multiple walls are involved.  The worst direction of fire (from an
     accidental penetration standpoint) involves sheet rock -> wall insulation
     -> sheet rock -> stucco -> 8 feet -> 1" redwood fence -> 8 feet -> brick
     wall.

   * Accidental penetration of walls is only an issue if you miss.  Even #00
     buck tends to stay inside most normal sized people.

I agree that a 20 gage shotgun is a viable alternative to somebody who has
problems controlling a 12 gage.

At ranges of less than 5 meters there is no significant difference in pattern
between bird and buck shot.  Autopsy results show similar cratering and rat
hole effects for both bird and buck.  The primary difference is the amount of
additional penetration that you get from buck, especially if a heavy jacket
must be defeated first.

#If you are in an semi-urban or rural situation Barry's remarks are pretty close
#to right on, though I would argue for a rifle over a shot gun. 
#Point I would make, according to an  RCMP (for your Southerners: Royal Canadian
#Mounter Police) most home defence shots are made at very close range.  3 - 8
#feet.  If that is the case, target acquisition comes from instinctive quick
#point and shoot, which means if you are ever faced with the situation, the
#amount of practice and target specification/acquisition practice you have
#behind you may make the difference between shoot/no shoot, hit/no hit,
#live/no live.

I agree that a rifle is a viable alternative in a rural environment.  The
problem I have is that a 7.62 x 51 rifle round can go all the way through  a
person at close range a still have enough energy left to penetrate multiple
walls and other people.  The shotgun solves that short range problem while
still giving me the 125 meter engagement envelope that I require.

Practice is very important.  In addition to trap and intermediate range target
shooting with slugs, I try to work on a multiple engagement problem with
reaction targets at ranges of 3 to 10 meters at least twice a month.

#Blast on Barry!

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527