From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Eggs and sperm being human life
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1992 20:08:15 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Oct6.073821.2417@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>  c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
> In article <1992Oct06.045138.146072@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com write
> >In  <1992Oct6.023143.20915@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>  c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Mart
> >> In article <ld1pc0INNqg2@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (E
> >> >In article <1992Oct5.233320.503@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.ed
> >> >
> >> >>The topic involved eggs/sperm etc. being human life.  I said
> >> >>the sperm/egg isn't human life.  Since the sperm/egg isn't human life, then
> >> >>you can't terminate it as a human life because it never was a human life
> >> >>right?
> >> >
> >> >So a sperm/egg isn't human? If not, what is it?
> >>
> >> Sperm/eggs are specialized human cells which acts as messengers.
> >                             ^^^^^
> >So you admit that they are human.
>
> Yes, sperm/eggs come from humans but they, in and of themselves, are not.
> When I say human life, I mean that which is a member of homo sapiens.

"Human" is an adjective.  Human cells are cells which come from humans.
I never claimed that the cells were humanS - the noun; I've explicitly
corrected you on this before.  I *do* know the difference, even if you
don't.

> >> >So a sperm/egg isn't alive? If not, what is it?
> >> >
> >> N/A
> >>
> >> >If a sperm/egg is human and it is life, then does that not mean
> >> >that _by_definition_ it is human life?
> >>
> >> Certainly, you wouldn't start calling sperm/eggs human life would you?
> >
> >By whatever definition you'd call a zygote "human life" I would.
>
> I will allow you to use some whacko definition of human life
> but don't pretend that that follows from *my* definition.  There is no
> case for a sperm/egg being human life.

They're human and they're alive.  I'd say that's a pretty good case.

> But once conception take place, a specialized human cell from the male
> combines with a specialized human cell from the female and "create" a new
> human life.  No longer is this human life just a mere part of a human.  In
> and of itself, it is human, no ifs ands or buts.

Well, of course it's human.  It's the result of two human cells merging;
did you expect it to be porcine?

> Not just a human in your sense of the word but a new member of homo sapiens.
           ^^^^^^^
See, you did it again.  A sperm or an egg is not *a* human, but they are
human cells.

> >> You do know that you cannot call a sperm/egg members of homo sapiens.
> >
> >No, I don't know that.  Besides, up above you said that the topic involved
> >"human life".  Are you changing the topic because you now agree that sperm
> >and eggs *are* human life?
>
> I never did.  Recheck terminology and reread the above.

You mean where you redefined the term you're abusing:
> When I say human life, I mean that which is a member of homo sapiens.

See, the confusion arose because many of us thought that when you said
"human life", you meant "human life".  I suppose that's rather silly of
us.  Now you say you really meant "a member of homo sapiens".  That still
includes the human sperm and eggs.  Then perhaps you'll say that what you
really *really* meant was "a diploid member of homo sapiens".

Since you're not doing too well at the language lessons, why don't we cut
to the chase.  Do you see any difference between a zygote and a (born)
person?  I do - I see a *big* difference.  You might not see any *moral*
difference, but many of us do.  To me, a fertilized egg has as little
value as the sperm and egg that joined to make it.  IT'S ONE FRIGGING CELL!!!
It *might* become a person, but then again it might not.  If it's aborted,
it will not.  (And let's avoid any silly arguments about single-cell
"people"; I'm talking about what is *normally* considered to be a person -
i.e., a born, alive, human being.)

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)