HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Is news.groups cliquish? No way!
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:22:28 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Any and all newcomers are gladly welcomed in news.groups.  All they need
>>bring are a clear style of expression and rational opinions to be expressed.
>
>HA!! Yeah RIGHT. Define "clear style of expression" and "rational opinions".

Clear: Easy to understand -- i.e. without run-on sentences, bizarre
formatting, ALL UPPER CASE, single huge paragraphs, etc.

Rational: Based on reasoning from verifiable, or at least plausible,
assumptions; expressed without ad-hominem arguments and with emotions
under control.

>Since those are very subjective measurements of textual prose, we are 
>forced to conclude that this is the standar by which admittance into the
>net.clique is granted.

Dave, your predilection for phrases of the `have you stopped beating
your wife' type is self-defeating and dishonest.

>>... is therefore not for the timid.
>But I thought voting and discussion were open to all?

That some choose not to enter does not imply that the door is closed.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana)
Subject: Re: Hijacking of democracy Re: S.R.I.A.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:54:18 GMT

majafri@cco.caltech.edu (Mansoor  A. Jafri) writes:

>In article <1992Nov14.183304.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> 3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>Hijacking of democratic process by Mr. Mansoor Jaffrey
>>
>>I am very much appalled by the act of Mr. Mansoor Jaffrey who attempted to 
>>hijack the democratic process of creating a new group on the network. He posted
>>an article yesterday in News.group, News.anounce.news.group,
>>Soc.culture.pakistan, soc.culture.Bangladesh, soc.culture.india and
>>soc.relegion.islam about calling for vote with regards to the
>>soc.relegion.islam.ahmadiyya, illegally and dishonestly. I am very much

>	Before you go on, lets look at the sequence of events.

[..deleted..]

>	5. News.groups readers object to Rana as being a vote-taker as well
>	   as the proposed moderator.

Aha! who objected me as being a vote-taker??? (and as well the proposed
moderator).?? Well, even if we assume your statement to be correct, then
how did you think you were solving it?? By becoming your self the vote
taker? And copying my exact Call For Votes article. Keeping the same 
moderators?? Why didn't you go about changing the moderators as well??






-- 
Nabeel A. Rana
rana@rintintin.colorado.edu
LOVE FOR ALL : HATRED FOR NONE.
________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:09:34 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>That may have been workable a few years ago, but the USENET consensus
>>you describe doesn't actually represent more than a handfull of people
>>in comparison with readership surveys. Lots of sites do NOT GET news.groups,
>Honestly, I don't think that such sites should be taken seriously.

Oh come on, man. With the amount of flamage that goes on here and the
expressed dislike of it that people keep showing, can you really say
that news.groups is a valid and worthwile newsgroup? 

>News.groups is among the most important newsgroups a site can receive.
>If one chooses not to receive it -- or, for that matter, just about
>any newsgroup in news.*, they have willfully forsaken their part in
>the newsgroup creation/organization process.

I can't agree with that at all. I think, in fairness, any site that
gets group X should have a part in the process of renaming X. Regardless.
People who voted for Clinton didn't have to watch the debates, you know. 
(Ha! I actually used the analogy for my side.)

>Please, no comments about people who don't know the purpose of
>news.groups, etc.  These sites are set up by *someone* with at least a
>ghost of a clue how Usenet works.  Those people have a responsibility
>to ensure that news.* gets fed to the target site.

As the numbers go up, statistucal fluctuations can cause a newsfeed
to happen such that the people involved do not know anything about this
group. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A man had lost a ring. His friend stopped by that morning and offered to help.
By late-afternoon, his friend remarked "I don't see it anywhere. Are you sure 
you lost your ring here?"
"Oh no," replied the man, "I lost it in the room over there...but the room
is too dark. Here I can see better."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign -- UNMODERATED
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 21:20:51 GMT

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>Please note that effective immediately, rec.games.frp.campaign should be
>considered unmoderated.  [. . .]

Please post a revised proposal.  I can't imagine what the group will
be like, combining your most recent proposal with this new information.  

-sz
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.usenet.culture
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Is news.groups cliquish?  No way!
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:09:20 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>I suspect part of the problem I'm seeing is that the news.groups 
>culture tends to come off quite cliquish and arrogant to the new user
>or unaware net.reader.

I disagree strongly.  I can hardly think of a more egalitarian place
of discussion.  Any and all newcomers are gladly (!!) welcomed in
news.groups.  All they need bring are a clear style of expression and
rational opinions to be expressed.

Of course, opinions are always open to dispute.  And anyone (!) who
fails to demonstrate clarity and rationality is ridiculed mercilessly.
But that doesn't make news.groups cliquish.  It's just an intellectual
free-for-all, and is therefore not for the timid.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 17:09:44 EST
Organization: Lost Tribes of Gazebo

In article <1992Nov16.041319.16490@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Are you going to blame a 5 year old kid for crossing the street and
>getting hit when the crossing was done on a red light?

Depends.  Is the car driven by Nazis?

-- 
       Rod Johnson  *  rcj@caen.engin.umich.edu  *  (313) 764-3103
    
                "What I do doesn't happen in a warehouse"
                                          --Jim Dickinson
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Should there be Pre-RFD discussion?
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:16:16 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1egqg6INNs81@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
> 
> >dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> >>Isn't there something in the newsgroup creation procedure about
> >>issuing a formal RFD *after* there's been enough discussion to
> >>show that it's worth pursuing?  
> 
> I've never figured out how there are people who
>  know enough about the procedure to get a formal
>  RFD started, and yet also have no clue when it
>  comes to the ettiquette.  Isn't it all written
>  down in the same place?  If not, it should be.

The best answer I can come up with is 'it depends'. Some RFD's come in cold
in that someone has an idea and write up a formal RFD and sends it to n.a.n.
Others have some discussion in news.groups and if not shot down in flames, take
it to a formal RFD. Still others discuss it in other groups and then either
a) crosspost into news.groups or b) go direct to the RFD stage. Finally (and
this is usually the case for the complicated reorgs such as sf-lovers or star
trek the proponents will hold a pre-RFD discussion within the hierarchy and
come up with a semi-finished RFD within the group for promulgation as a formal
RFD. There are really no hard rules for the pre-RFD stage and it needs to be
handled on a case-by-case basis (meaning there should not be hard guildlines
for this stage). I see nothing wrong with holding pre-RFD's within specific
groups prior to an RFD but once a formal RFD is issued then discussion is
to stay in news groups. (Exceptions would be to cross-post the actual RFD
with followups directed to news.groups to 'interested' groups.)






-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:37:46 GMT

In article <1e4n4uINNhtl@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>*is* Islam, then soc.religion.islam should suffice.  The Qur'an
>clearly states that there should not be any sects.  Hence, either it
>*is* Islam, in which case soc.religion.islam is enough, or it is not,
>in which case there should be no "Islam" in its name.  That's all
>there is to it.
>
>-- Shakil

If I remember right, there are almost 10+ sects of Islam (I saw it somewhere 
in Herald mag. once). So in your opinion all these sects are non-muslims ?
No ? Then Why ? Because they do not differ by as much as the Ahmadis ? So 
who defines by how much degree of variation is to be permitted between diff.
sects and yet fall under the same umbrella of 'muslim'. As for SRI (moderated),
*perhaps* the Ahmadis believe they are being unfairly censored. 
 
regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|  LIFE's COMPLEX - IT HAS
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)  REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS.
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
From: murphy@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Dave Hayes is NOT right
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:42:19 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NPRI, Alexandria VA


>Yes, there ARE sysads out there who hand their users a sheet of paper
>with a user number, a password, and nothing else but a pat on the back.
>
>andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)

_you_ got a pat on the back??  spoiled-rotten, that's what you are.

i had to log on UPHILL!  BOTH WAYS!  IN A BLIZZARD!  AND I WAS THANKFUL!


(the smileys might be hidden to some people, but they're there)

ok
dpm
-- 
murphy@npri6.npri.com 602 Cameron St. Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 683-9090

              When every one is dead the Great Game is finished.  Not before.
                              --- Hurree Babu, "Kim"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: Straw Poll - Rec.games.frp.campaign (Was: something else)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:30:03 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <1ebanbINNl26@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <1eb9f2INN698@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:
>>Bruce Norman writes:
>>>I wasn't trying to pull a "fast one" with my Straw Vote.  When it says 
>>>discussion of campaign will continue if 100 votes were received, I mean
>>>only if 100 positive votes are received.  
>>
>>And the NO votes go to data heaven?  This is still the same straw vote
>>proposal you had before then.  Tricky, tricky, tricky.....
>
>Damn!  Men, I must hang my head in shame, for I foolishly sent a "NO"
>vote to Bruce, thinking that it would actually do some good.  Now he
>will count as a vote to continue this worthless discussion.  Forgive
>me, friends, for I have been decieved by this fiend.

I, too, fell victim to the obfuscated wording of the proposal and sent
a response.  What is truly sad is that I, a veteran of the
rec.arts.sf-lovers meltdown and rec.arts.startrek.* flamefest (not to
mention opponent of all of the rec.games.frp.* splits before Loren
Miller provided something I could live with), should have known
better...

I am most sorry and ask that Scott Forbes write me up as part of my
pennance.

>Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:58:11 GMT

In article <1e9mgiINNm7b@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>According to the Qur'an, there is more to being a Muslim than just
>that.  There are definite contradictions between accepting someone
>after Muhammed (pbuh) as a prophet and what the Qur'an says about him
>being the *last* prophet.  Indeed, no ifs, ands, or buts about it...
>
>-- Shakil

So why is it that only this point is being harped upon. I am not saying 
that the Ahmadis interpretation is right or wrong. The issue here is 
independent of their rightful/wrongful beliefs. If one single contradictory
belief makes someone a non-muslim, then almost every muslim is guilty of 
being a non-muslim. How many muslims actually follow Quran to the letter.
Do you really look down as recommended by Quran whenever a good looking 
girl passes by you ?! (Please don't say YES to this as I couldn't swallow 
that).  Do not many muslims smoke and drink ?  There must be thousands 
of such nuances which are violated by muslims every day. Many muslims 
girls now wear what Jamaati muslims would consider totally un-islamic.
Violation of a dress code is a big issue for the Jamaati muslims but it is 
a minor violation (actually it is not even perceived as a violation) for the 
girls who dress in more contemporary fashions. Similarly, the issue of the 
"last prophet" may be considered to be a MAJOR violation to *YOU* but it is 
not perceived as a violation to the Ahmadis. Just as those girls are no lesser
muslims, Ahmadis don't consider themselves any lesser muslims than you. 

Now if the Ahmadis actually considered themselves non-muslims and yet 
chose to attatch themselves to the muslims (for obvious political/economic 
benefits in a theocratic state), then it might be considered as unethical
(though anything goes for survival). But the fact is that they don't.  
You keep saying that you have no problem with them following their own 
beliefs and I believe you on that. But you don't seem to recognize that 
they also believe that they are muslims. You do have a problem with them
following that particular belief of theirs, don't you ?  

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|  LIFE's COMPLEX - IT HAS
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)  REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS.
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
 


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: RF(Informal)D: Standard RFD/CFV Format
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:14:25 GMT

In article <1e7f04INNkka@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu  
(Joshua Randall) writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.050533.18672@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com  
(Rob Strom) writes:
> 
> [deletion]
> 
> >My proposal is to require the name of the group
> >affected by a name change to appear in the subject
>  ^^^^^^^^
> >line of the RFD or CFV. [...]
> 
> Again, I must ask, who will decide which groups are affected, and how
> will he decide?  

The groups absolutely affected (i.e. they would be renamed or go away) are  
quite easy to delineate. The guideline change could be constructed in such  
a way to make this clear. Ensuring that these groups are notified via the  
subject line would be an improvement over the existing scheme, IMO.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
Distribution: news
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 02:00:54 GMT

In article <9868@armltd.uucp> dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal) writes:

   Another would be first to run a poll on whether the problems people have
   found with the vote are sufficient to justify revoting the rename. If that
   is in favour of a revote (and I think a simple majority should be enough on
   this sort of question), then run a revote. If this were done, I would
   probably vote against revoting in the first poll, then abstain if the revote
   occurred. This would at least allow me, and I suspect many others, to
   express their views on the process involved without also having to vote on a
   matter I have no interest in.

See my straw poll results in news.admin.misc and rec.music.synth.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 17 Nov 92 01:36:09 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <BxquGD.20o@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>>Charter:     
>>    The purpose of rec.games.frp.campaign is to provide an area for the 
>>posting of ongoing fantasy role-playing game campaigns, which are written up 
>>in story format.  In other words, no game terminology may be used, and the 
>>campaign 'moves' or 'chapters' will be in story form.  It is hoped that these 
>>stories will entertain the readers of the newsgroup, and help provide them 
>>with ideas for their own campaigns. 
> 
>This is the closest thing I could find to your quote from above.  It 
>mentions no rules demanding that posts must be in an "enjoyable, ledgible,
>formate for all".  I admit, it'd be very nice if DMs bothered to do so, and

That was in your previous proposal, as you admit a few lines down....

>if they don't, I'll probably flame them (as will other readers, as would
>any readers in any newsgroup).
>
>Now to be fair, I'll admit that your quote was a quote from a *previous*
>edition of the proposal.  I've already addressed the issue though, as
>you can see.

Ok.  I was responding to a part of the old proposal. (It's so hard
to keep track....)

The new proposal still doesn't address why rgf.archive is not
(supposedly) appropriate for articles of this type.  From all
accounts it is, has been, and shall be a place where postings
of this type are welcome.


So: what do you have against rgf.archive except that you aren't
it's moderator?

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!"		-"Ace" Rimmer
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:56:31 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <1992Nov20.014227.9059@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>Well, Dave: what now? Are you going to come up wiht yet another lame argument,
>Any argument I come up with would be named that by you. So as not to
>disappoint you:
>He didn't post that often enough. 

Another point to note: if nobody even _realized_ that an article was posted
with the word "rename" in the header until _now_, that means the article was
fairly inconspicuous....
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ppregler@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Peter Pregler)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Organization: RISC, J.K. University of Linz, Austria
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 07:55:40 GMT

In article <62177@mimsy.umd.edu>, leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens) writes:
> I think that r.g.n.announce would be a very useful group to start.
> The netrek community is very productive of interesting announcements.
> 
In order to prevent postings like 'you are the only one ....' I second this.
Leonard's arguments are my arguments.

You need another example? How many (silly) inquiries did you read about RSA the
last few week? Lot's of people seemed to miss the information that was posted.
IMHO, r.g.n.announce(moderated) would have helped.

-Peter.

-- 
Make a remark, it's ridiculous to leave all the conversation to the pudding.
-------------------------------
Peter Pregler / RISC, University of Linz, Austria
Bitnet: K315470@AEARN.BITNET  Internet: ppregler@risc.uni-linz.ac.at
From: power@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us (Russ Woodroofe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Bassoon newsgroup
Date: 22 Nov 92 19:27:19 GMT
Organization: GREX Public Access Unix +1 313 761 3000


	This is most likely a FAQ, but I didn't see a FAQ sitting on my local
Unix system, so here goes.
	What's the procedure for adding a newsgroup?  I'm interested in
getting a bassoon newsgroup going (alt.music.bassoon?)... Do I need to do
some sort of these RFD type things?  If so, how do newsgroups like
alt.sex.bestiality.hamster.duct-tape get created? :)  I do know of at least
one other person with usenet access that would be interested.... and probably
several others...

						Russ Woodroofe
						power@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us
(someone please email this to me, I don't normally check this group.
Thank you for putting up with my (probably stupid sounding) request :) )