HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dwight Robert Stone)
Subject: Re: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:16:53 GMT

paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:

>klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>>>>I thought the game Legolas and Gimli played at the battle of Helms Deep
>>>>was not from thirst for revenge.  It seemed to be more of a sporting
>>>>contest.
>>
>>Callous, yes, but that happens in war. How is that different from
>>fighter pilots counting kills? 
>>

>This question was posted to the List sometime ago and I repeat it here
>to see what you might think on the subject.

>"Are you justified in killing orcs simply because they are orcs?"

I'd have to say that you are, just because the mere existance of an orc is an
abomination.  Orcs are twisted corruptions of elves, a mockery made by Morgoth.
Their very existance and nature is infused with the evil of their making.
There is no redemption, no salvation, no reformation for orcs.

-- 
Dwight Stone                  I generally prefer my coffee without tentacles.
dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu       Cthulhu for new University of Illinois mascot!
ORQ: "Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves"
Grim thought of the day:  Life is just death's way of laughing up its sleeve.
From: rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:40:20 GMT

stas@netcom.com (Stanislav Malyshev) writes:

>Enya's _Shepherd Moons_ album has a track called "Lorien" (or was it
>"Lothlorien"..)

Yes, indeed; Lothlorien, track 9 on CD I think.  Pretty decent music,
actually--if you like that sort of thing.  Any other music with Tolkien
references?

Richard Wang
rwang@husc.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:03:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bz9tME.3GD@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz>, wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes...
>In article <Bz62pI.BJx@acsu.buffalo.edu>, swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
> 
>|> "Wormtongue":    -Definitely- Rowan Atkinson.  Definitely. 
> 
>BRILLIANT !  Don't know why it hasn't been suggested before. 
>Atkinson would utterly steal the show as Wormtongue.

	Agreed.


>|> Aragorn is probably the hardest character to cast. 
> 
>You sure said it !  A real toughie.

	Well, Shawn Connery (sp?) did Aragorn's voice in the movie
_The Return of the King_ I believe.  Quite well I might add.  He
can give a "kingly" impression and is an excellent actor.  Perhaps
he would do.


Mark
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey)
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:27:29 GMT

In article <Bz55qt.LGH@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar) writes:
|> Hi Folks!
|> 
|> 	I thoroughly enjoy listening to Led Zeppelin while I read Tolkien. 
|> Two songs of theirs in particular refer to Middle Earth and its characters in
|> the lyrics: "Battle of Evermore" (Led Zeppelin IV), and "Ramble On" (Led 
|> Zeppelin II).  On the whole, I find Zeppelin complements Tolkien in a most
|> fascinating way -- after all, Tolkien was Robert Plant's and Jimmy Page's
|> favorite author.
|> 	Give it a try, I _highly_ recommend it!

You might also see "Rivendell" by Rush, on their _Fly_By_Night_ album.  It is a
quiet guitar piece, which would fit in almost perfectly with the ride of Biblo
and the dwarves down into the dale of Imladris at even.  I don't have a lyric
sheet, but if anyone is interested I can transcribe it off my CD.
						-- Mike Kelsey
-- 
[  My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government  ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.  Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder  of Orion.   I've watched  C-beams glitter in  the darkness
near the Tannhauser Gate.  All these memories will be lost in time, like
tears in the rain."  -- Roy Batty
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Aragorn
Date: 13 Dec 92 17:17:26 GMT
Reply-To: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.


  Arogorn lived for 210 years. he ruled for six-score years. This
makes you wonder how old he was physically rather than chronologically
when compared to the average man not of the Dunedain. What do you 
think?
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:52:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <KETIL.92Dec14162659@spurv.ii.uib.no>, ketil@ii.uib.no writes...
> 
>In article <1992Dec8.112648.3582@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
> 
>	Nancy> Any theories about why the Balrog stayed in Moria once it (he?) was 
>	Nancy> awakened?
> 
>Has it struck any of you that the balrog might not be terribly
>intelligent?  I mean, powerful and dangerous, but it could be that it
>isn't just smart enough to rule a large kingdom, and only usable to
>Morgoth as a powerful tool to be kept on a short leash.

	Hmmm.  That's something I never considered.


>Pro:
> 
>I don't remember that balrogs have ever been in command of anything,
>there were of course "Gothmog, captain of balrogs" if I remember
>correctly, but I can't remember that he actually commanded a lot.
> 
>The balrog stays put in moria, even though it's relatively safe
>outside to join sauron or whatever.
> 
>The balrog facing gandalf didn't seem at all sure of itself when
>Gandalf mumbled something about being a 'servant of the dark fire' or
>some such.

	"servant of the secret fire"

	The fire of Illuvatar, no doubt.


>Con: 
> 
>Sauron wasn't a balrog, was he?  If not, what exactly was he?

	Well...  No, he was never described as a Balrog.  He did
appear as nifty things like Vampires and Werewolves in the
Silmarillion.  So at one point he was a "shapeshifter".  He is
a Maia turned to evil.  I think that is about as far as it can
be narrowed down.


Mark
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 15 Dec 1992 16:41:39 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <7029@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F) writes:
>>In article <Bz22E0.D7w@access.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes...
>>>(Incidently, one thing I particularly liked about the Covenant books.
>>>The protaganist felt genuinely guilty about killing orc-equivalents.
>>>I found that a refreshing change after Legolas and Gimli's contest
>>>at Helm's Deep to see who could kill more enemy cannon fodder.)

>Oh my god, people aren't trying to apply political correctness to the 
>slaying of orcs now, are they ? :-)
>What you appear to be overlooking is that orcs *deserve* death generally.
>Orcs delight in torturing their captured enemies (including defenceless women
>e.g Finduilas was speared to a tree by an orc).  They also have no respect 
>for other life, even of their own kin (e.g the Shagrat vs Gorbag conflict).
>Furthermore, Gimli's and Legolas's folk  had both suffered dearly at the
>hands of orcs; it is hardly surprising they want revenge really, is it ?

A couple points on this.  First, cavewights in Covenant (the equivalent
of orcs) were equally as evil and deserving of death.  Covenant, and
Foamfollower the giant, still felt guilt over killing them.  I found that
refreshing.

(For another example of something similar, see the protaganists response
to killing the storm troopers in the movie "Brazil."  First glee, then
guilt when he realizes that he has just killed a fellow human.)

Second, I thought that the way that Legolas and Gimli behaved at Helm's
Deep was not from thirst for revenge.  It seemed to be more of a sporting
contest.

Third, the lack of guilt at killing in LOTR extends beyond killing orcs.
No one seemed to mind killing Haradrim or Easterlings or any of the men in
Sauron's army.  In fact, the only heroes of LOTR that seem to be in the
habit of letting enemies live in potential combat situations are the 
hobbits, starting with Bilbo holding back from killing Gollum.


Let us not forget Gandalf's warning (undoubtedly misworded, as I quote
from memory): "Deserve death!  I daresay he does!  And many who deserve
life fail to get it.  If you are not ready to deal it out yourself, do
not be so quick to judge."  Sounds kind of like another old saying that
might apply: "Judge not lest ye be judged."
 
>I think orcs are supposed to be creatures so evil that there is no guilt in
>slaying one. 
>

I agree with this.  I just found it refreshing in the Covenant books to
have the characters equipped with a more discriminating moral code that
allowed them to empathize with other creatures even when those other
creatures do not necessarily deserve empathy.

Finally, if a preference against killing sentient beings is "political
correctness," then let us hope that the world become politically correct
in the near future...

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:45:40 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Besides the 5 chief wizards, is any mention ever made of the "minor" ones?
Were they Maiar as well?

Note: Where it is described when the wizards appear it says something like
"...of their chiefs there were 5..."  Anyone have that quote handy?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:29:38 GMT

In <KETIL.92Dec14162659@spurv.ii.uib.no> ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) writes:


>In article <1992Dec8.112648.3582@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

>	Nancy> Any theories about why the Balrog stayed in Moria once it (he?) was 
>	Nancy> awakened?

>Has it struck any of you that the balrog might not be terribly
>intelligent?  I mean, powerful and dangerous, but it could be that it
>isn't just smart enough to rule a large kingdom, and only usable to
>Morgoth as a powerful tool to be kept on a short leash.

>Pro:

>I don't remember that balrogs have ever been in command of anything,
>there were of course "Gothmog, captain of balrogs" if I remember
>correctly, but I can't remember that he actually commanded a lot.

The Balrog of Moria commanded a host of orcs and trolls. When the Fellowship
is inside Moria, they are pursued by orcs and trolls, and finally they are
challenged by the Balrog. Don't you think it's highly improbable that
such a powerful being like the Balrog would co-exist with puny beings like
orcs and even trolls? There is a high degree of co-operation between the
Balrog and the orcs & trolls. And, as is the custom with hosts of orcs & trolls,
the strongest individual commands the pack. And in this case, it is the Balrog.
Some more: if the Balrog would have wanted the orcs and trolls to stay out of
Moria, he would be capable of keeping them out of it, at least for a _long_
time. So, the orcs & trolls came to Moria with his permission.

>The balrog stays put in moria, even though it's relatively safe
>outside to join sauron or whatever.

Moria is easy to defend. And outside, the Balrog is surrounded by Elves
(in Lorien and in Rivendel). I think the Balrog would wait for the War to be
over, and if Sauron won, then to get out of Moria and be a mayor ally of Sauron,
and if Sauron lost, to stay put in Moria. At least, that's what I would do.

>The balrog facing gandalf didn't seem at all sure of itself when
>Gandalf mumbled something about being a 'servant of the dark fire' or
>some such.

The Balrog was a Maiar, and Gandalf also. All along, since it awoke, the
Balrog had only faced inferior beings, and he wasn't so sure of himself
when he faced an equal. Besides, it is probable that the Balrog of Moria was
a wimpy, who fled and hid under a mountain when he saw that his boss couldn't
win.

Food for thought?

From the Adm3a of Hein Ragas, heinr@sci.kun.nl

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rsteele@adam.ll.mit.edu (Rob Steele)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Reply-To: rob@ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:50:23 GMT

I expect JRRT would give the same sort of reply to PC police as he gave  
to his German publisher.  The PC police would then conclude that since  
he refuses to cooperate he is guilty.  The PC police might therefore  
save themselves the trouble of interrogating the dead and just execute  
him.
-------------------------------------------------------
Rob Steele                            rob@ll.mit.edu
MIT Lincoln Laboratory
244 Wood St., M-203            Children are hereditary;
Lexington, MA  02173          if your parents didn't have
617/981-2575                    any, neither will you.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:15:55 GMT

In <STSSRAM.92Dec10162816@st.unocal.COM> stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers) writes:

>The Palantiri and the Elvish rings are only hazardous because Sauron
>has power over them;  they are not in any way inherently evil.

And Aragorn not only used the Orthanc-stone during the war, he says
that he plans to keep for his use.  He wouldn't do that with an
"inherently evil" object, now would he?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow gazelle.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is hungry.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:16:52 GMT

Would someone care to give reference to more on Sauron's
background.  I have heard him questionably mentioned as
a balrog.  Wow.  If he were a balrog, then, boy, I am
sure out of it.  I had no idea this were the case (if,
in fact, it is).

Brevity is ok, as long as there are references.  But, if
someone wants to, feel free to bring it all into light.

Thank you again for all the help, Tolkien fans!!

Mike D.
-- 

 ____ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[  _ \ Purdue      \ dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
 ||_|| University    \  mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu     |\
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bartlone@zeke.gemedical (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: Movie roles
Reply-To: bartlone@zeke.gemedical
Organization: GE Medical Systems
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:25:46 GMT

I think perhaps Jurgen Procknow could play Aragorn (most of you would
probably recognize him as either Duke Leto Atriedes or "The Angel of Death"
in The Seventh Sign)..although his accent is vaguely Germanic, there is
an aristocratic aire to it..without the snobbery...he is definitely weathered
looking...

As to the Hobbits, what about some of the 'little people' from 'Willow'..
"Willow" himself could play Frodo...I would still like Linda Hunt as 
one of them...perhaps Pippin...but more likely Bilbo..maybe Samwise..
---
sigs are like sound-bites..they never say enough, but frequently
are interpreted as saying too much.....bartlone@gemed.ge.com

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:37:34 GMT

In article <682@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) wrote:
> 
> Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
> >And what
> >about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
> >Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?
> 
> Not a linguist, but...
> 
> "Oldest and fatherless" is how it is rendered in the text.  "Oldest, son of
> none" might be more literal.  (Corrections?)
> 
> -- 
>        David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
>  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
>  Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
>  Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman

The name is Sindarin.
"Iarwain" is 'oldest'.
"Ben" must be 'without'.
"Adar" is 'father' (cf. Quenya _atar_ 'father' in _Ataratani_ 'Fathers
of Men').

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bartlone@med.ge.com (Michel Bartolone)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Reply-To: bartlone@med.ge.com
Organization: GE Medical Systems
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:32:05 GMT

We also have a 'gandalf' for external modem connection...within our domain we also
have a rivendell (one of my machines..;-))..my other two MAY be changed to lorien,
and..greyhaven...
---
sigs are like sound-bites..they never say enough, but frequently
are interpreted as saying too much.....bartlone@gemed.ge.com

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth)
Subject: THE Movie
Summary: Yes
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:52:33 GMT

I (being a romantic) cannot help but dream of seeing
a wonderfully created movie about my favorite set
of fiction books.

Who's to say this is hopeless?  And why is it such a
bad idea that Sean Connery master the role of Aragorn?
I can imagine Bob Hoskins as playing AT LEAST a Sam
Gamgee.  And as for the "Willow" character - applause
for him if he gets the role as Frodo.

Let's (in the very least) put together a "wish-list"
{It IS the season, you know} of our own.  Surely
we will agree, for the most part, on character roles, for
I feel that we all have roughly the same idea of Tolkien's
characters as we do today's actors/actresses.  I would
thoroughly enjoy seeing Jack Nicholson, Harrison Ford,
{Wesley from _The Princess Bride_ - sorry can't think of
his name}, Michael Keaton, Daniel Day Lewis, and a few
of the other noteable actors/actresses in this film.
I am fairly sure (especially if the money's right) that
many of these people would be DELIGHTED to have a
part in one of the finest stories this century,
if not in SEVERAL centuries.  (please do not ask
me to back this up with articles and interviews from
_People_ magazine, or anything like that).

As for the music - who says ONE act has to play it all?
DEFINELTEY get Enya and/or Clannad, Led Zepplin, Rush,
and anyone else that enjoys doing the Tolkien stuff.
If anything, let Enya do some tracks for the bits in
Rivendell, Lorien, and the Halls in Gondor and Rohan.
Let Led Zepplin, Rush and the other less-subtle tracks
go for the battle seens.  PLEASE put some of Rush's stuff
in there when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are trying to
find the Hobbits after they all split up at the end
of _The Fellowship_.

See, this can all work.  EVEN if it may never happen.
Criticizing (with those dark, Sauron-like words ;) )
another's choice of roles isn't necessary, nor are they
liked much, I wouldn't think, by many people.

Let's all have fun with this newsgroup.  I really
enjoy the information I learned so far from here, and
have enjoyed the "company" of fellow Tolkien-lovers.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

Mike D.
 ____ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[  _ \ Purdue      \ dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
 ||_|| University    \  mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu     |\
 | __/ Boilermakers.   \-------------------------------   \
 ||    4-0 and still running, and dunking, and blocking.... >
[__]  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   /
                                                       |/
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR 
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:40:18 GMT

In <BzDwBo.1ps@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:
[...]

>Well maybe, except that it is blatantly obvious in the case of the One
>Ring that this is NOT true. The Ring is inherently evil, and there's
>nothing that anyone in Middle-Earth can do about it. The Ring is an
>object, and is also evil. 

I think the ring is an *entity*, trapped in an object.  Not passive, and
possessed of semi-free will.

>There, do I get a chocolate fish or what? :-)

Will you settle for a hearty "well done"?

-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik Andila)
Subject: Re: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Organization: University of Vaasa, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:37:19 GMT

Thorongil (paul@pj.tmc.edu) wrote:
: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
: >>>I thought the game Legolas and Gimli played at the battle of Helms Deep
: >>>was not from thirst for revenge.  It seemed to be more of a sporting
: >>>contest.
: >
: >Callous, yes, but that happens in war. How is that different from
: >fighter pilots counting kills? 
: >
: This question was posted to the List sometime ago and I repeat it here
: to see what you might think on the subject.
: 
: "Are you justified in killing orcs simply because they are orcs?"


	That depends on your definition of orcs -- the orcs are, although
I do not have a reference for it, described as perverted elves. As such
they theoretically could revert to a better life, someday, and undo Morgoth's
evil. In other words they are not inherently evil.

	It is worth notice that the elves were very reluctant to kill, or
even harm, Gollum -- another creature perverted by darkness, to a lesser 
extent. As neither the Orcs nor Gollum seemed very eager to change their
ways I would say that the same applies to both, i.e. the orcs' orcishness
is the problem, not their continued existence.

	Still, it would perhaps be appropriate to kill them in situations
where they are more or less willing parts in the Dark Lord's plans -- as
long as they are wearing Sauron's colours they are free game, but if they 
would seek redemption this would no longer be the case. It should also be
noticed that the orcs themselves were neither ignorant nor happy about their
situation, I am now talking about the event just after the hobbits' meeting
with Shelob, the orcs, while discussing among themselves, observe something
to the extent of there unfortunately being no way to get out of the dilemma,
none of the free races would ever willingly let them live.

	Speculating freely, this might have been part of what kept the orcs
in line -- the Dark Lord tells them that while they may not be content to
live under his rule after what he did to them, there is no longer an 
alternative. That said, the moral and practical implications of an orc
actually trying to get back into the light would probably be enormous --
consider the reactions of Gondor's army when they hear that they are
supposed to let that orc live on despite the deeds that his race, and quite
possibly he himself, has done in the past.

-Patrik