From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: CFIDS and Lyme
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:16:36 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug31.195028.4974@lamont.ldgo.columbia.edu> odp@ldgo.columbia.edu (carl brenner) writes:
>In article <16272@pitt.UUCP>, geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug28.162338.10877@equator.com> jod@equator.com (John Setel O'Donnell) writes:

>> Lyme is a disease with a definitely identified cause (the borrelia
>> spirochete).  It is true that it can produce many different
>> symptoms, but it is not at all in the same category with CFS,
>> for which no cause has yet been identified.  Lyme is in the
>> differential diagnosis of patient presenting with fatigue.  So
>> are other diseases, such as mono and MS.
>
>	I don't understand your point here. All he said was that the
>symptoms of Lyme and of CFS are similar. This is a fact. But CFS is
>(by definition) a syndrome, not a specific illness. There are no doubt
>many causes of CFS; it's not a single entity. It's a garbage heap
>diagnosis.
>

The point is that Lyme is a well defined disease and CFS isn't, at
least not yet.  I thought it would be well not to let people
make the connection in their minds that they are similar entities.
Lyme causes fatigue along with a lot of other things.  As for
the cause of CFS, you are likely correct, although it is certainly
possible that a yet to be discovered organism could be responsible
for many of the cases.


>
>> >(some researchers speculate that much of MS is undiagnosed Lyme, and
>> >that all of CFIDS is).
>> >
>> I've never seen any legitimate researcher speculate that much of MS
>> is undiagnosed Lyme.  Only quacks who do no research, but only
>> charge huge sums to patients with MS for giving them worthless
>> lyme treatments.  Do you have anyone in particular in mind, or
>> did you just toss this one out?
>
>	The first half of this century saw literally dozens of papers
>(mostly European, especially German) linking "MS" to a spirochetal agent.
>These folks were staining spirochetes all over the place. They may have

I thought he was talking about now, not in the early part of this century.
We know a lot more about MS now.  I'd be interested in modern studies
where the borrelia spirochete is being stained in MS patients.  I don't
think there are any papers in the literature on that, are there?


>to believe he may be coming to his senses.) The one good point he had
>was that these patients had abnormal VERs; this may be a good way to
>differentiate the two, although if you think about it, it's completely
>circular reasoning: you arbitrarily define all the patients with abnormal
>VERs and positive Lyme serologies as having MS.

Lyme could case abnormal VERs in cases that had basilar meningitis.
Syphilis (another spirochete) does, so Lyme could also.  There isn't
going to be a magic test until we find a way to absolutely detect
the spirochete.  And even then, MS is a very common disease.  In
Lyme endemic areas, many people will have both.  


>doubt whatsoever that more than few Lyme patients have been misdiagnosed
>(by lousy doctors, obviously) as having MS. It seems reasonable to

And vice versa by even lousier doctors.

>	Other things to keep in mind: ever think about the geographic
>distribution of MS? It coincides exactly with the emerging demographics
>on Lyme.

Do the Lyme ticks live on Iceland?  On the Shetland Islands?  I'll
bet not.  

>	Also, Gordon, please stop calling all physicians who treat
>seronegative patients "quacks." This is unfair. I know many of these guys,
>and they are anything but.

The ones I know are almost exclusively "lyme doctors".  All their
patients have lyme and they treat them over and over and over
at great cost until the patients finally get wise and give up.
They're quacks.

-- 
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Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
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