HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sieh@panix.com (Lui Sieh)
Subject: Re: The Validity of Stereotypes (Was: Re: Asian males aren't attractive?  (was Re: OFWM....))
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:57:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Dec9.002351.12667@hspice.portal.com> georgew@hspice.portal.com
>(George Wu) writes:
>In article <1992Dec8.015054.3726@panix.com> sieh@panix.com (Lui Sieh) writes:
>>I think that all Asian Americans would like to believe that any of the
>>Asian American stereotypes are simply false.  That is what people are trying
>>to distance themselves from.  Asian Americans are saying that what people's
>>ideas of who we are are wrong.  I happen to believe that no matter how much
>>people would like to think that there's so very little basis of truth in these
>>stereotypes that in reality, there might just be a lot more truth than we
>>Asian Americans would like to admit.  That's the nightmare that all of us at
>>one point or another have lived and would wish it'd go away.

>     Is a stereotype justified even if it has some factual basis?  A
>disproportionate number of blacks are under the control of the criminal
>justice system.  Does that justify the opinion that blacks are all criminals?

This is a different question than the one I asked but it is related.  So far,
we've seen an outpouring of Asian American male angst; anguish of being an
Asian American man in a society that looks unfavorably on him.  To those male
posters, I'm presenting the possibility that while no one likes to be
stereotypical, there may be within the individual the instances of attitudes
or behaviors that would reinforce those stereotypes in the minds of the 
opposite (or same) sex.  If this is indeed the case, then the questions that
Jim posed about "behavioral alternations" would certainly come to play.  "Is
this who I am?"  "Do I like myself this way?"  "Is this me?" "How far am I
willing to change in order to be more attractive to those I want to be
attractive to?" etc.

To begin even asking those questions however, one must first take the first
step of honestly reevaluating himself and see where he can make a difference
by having a more positive mental attitude about things.
-- 
[signature presently under new management.  Free rental 
space available here.  Please inquire.  sieh@panix.com]


Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu)
Subject: Re: On Languages and Asian Americans
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:59:08 GMT

In article <1go32jINN1fc@agate.berkeley.edu> bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu (Billy H. Chan) writes:
>Recently, a poster mentions that since her son, who is Half
>Hispanic and Half Chinese (actually, might be Half Korean, 
>don't remember correctly), will be going to school soon, that
>she wants him to be bilingual, Spanish and English.  A
>question came to mind, "What about Chinese?" (or Korean)
>
>Which leads me to my main question.  To all the Asian Americans
>out there, how much do you value your native (no...Asian) 
>Language (ie, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, those spoken in India
>(I'm not sure how to spell them), etc.etc.etc)?
>
>From personal experience, I've known many ChineseAs who regret that
>their parents didn't force them to learn Chinese (note, I didn't use
>the word force by accident).  I've also known many who could care
>less.  I myself right now am trying relearn the handful of Cantonese
>I know.
>So I ask you, what will you want for your children?  In the growing
>interracial marriage scene, should we expect our children to learn
>3 or 4 different languages (Spanish/English/Chinese trilingual in the
>aforementioned poster's son's case).  (and lets keep this a friendly
>debate :)
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>*	Billy H. Chan		<bhchan@ocf.berkeley.edu> 	*
>*	Lost at Cal!!!   	<bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu>	*
>-----------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you raise your kids in an ethnic ghetto, or you take them to
whatever Asian country a LOT, or America changes a whole lot, the
chances of raising truly multi-lingual-English-and-Asian-language
is very, very slim.  Some people have pulled it off (Joe Wang, you
still out there?  Care to share your experience?), but in general,
the power of TV, radio, movies, newspapers, school, friends, etc. is
just too strong.

Personally, some ideas I have:
1.  It's crucial NOT to make the kids feel guilty for not speaking
	a language.  Language skills are NOT genetic, and it will
	be very hard for the kids to get *good* at whatever language.
2.  Make it fun.  It's a special *extra* language that they know.
	My parents used to play games with the us three kids:
	learning tones (Mandarin), only speaking Chinese at mealtime, etc.
3.  Later, the kids may kick themselves for not having learned/retained
	more.  Wisdom comes with age (so I hope! :-).  They'll probably
	be able to study whatever language in college, and whatever they've
	managed to retain from childhood will help.  But I think this step
	only happens if the kids didn't grow up resenting the Asian language.
						--Alan Hu
From: cmc@cs.utexas.edu (Chi Ming Cheung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: One WM who loves Oriental Fs
Date: 15 Dec 1992 11:33:53 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: grit.cs.utexas.edu

In article <15030001@iftccu.boeing.com> ladd@iftccu.boeing.com (Bob Ladd) writes:
	[stuff deleted]
>I think our society is undergoing a transformation in many ways. I
>have reason to believe that the perceived AF/WM "problem" may 
>resolve itself in the years ahead.  I know its difficult for many
	[more stuff deleted]
>----------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the following does not offend anyone:

I was with some guy talking about the difficulty of Asians getting dates.
As best as I can remember he said "I know the situation is bad for you now,
but things are getting better.  Even though you are not getting any right now,
your children will."  As an afterthought he added "That is, if you have any
children."  I thought it was funny at the time.

--M.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Asian-male stereotyping, how?
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:18:09 GMT

In article <1gl8udINNos6@male.EBay.Sun.COM> (defensio libertatis) writes:
>
>Can anyone remember a "good guy" asian male in the movies or TV?
>
>I can think of "Sam the Coroner's Asst." in "Quincy" and 
>of course "Mr. Sulu" in the old Star Trek.

Umm ... that's Captain Sulu of the U.S.S. Excelsior* as of at least
a year ago ...

gld

* which could one day become the Enterprise B ... let's see ...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Support NAFTA
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			 Eat Mexican  (El Teddy's ad)
From: melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM (Living on Planet Me)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian-male stereotyping, how?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:00:23 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: thedarktower.corp.sun.com

rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!) writes:
		underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) :
		> Chotto.  Shum-san wa chuugokujin(-cu) mitai desu nee.  
		> Doobutsu no yoo ni kangaetari yattari suru kara.

	rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!) :
	> Oop oop oop! Am I talking like a chinese culture baboon now??

To be truly fluent, it should be oop-cu oop-cu oop-cu. 

Hope that helps with your pronunciation next time.

	Melinda  ;^)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: philly@brahms.udel.edu (Robert Hite)
Subject: Re: Asian males aren't attractive? (was Re
Organization: Univ. of Delaware- Computer Sci. Dept
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:58:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.210306.10986@nas.nasa.gov> choi@win48.nas.nasa.gov (Diana Choi) writes:
>In article <1gaoreINN919@male.EBay.Sun.COM> (defenso libertatis) writes:
>>In article r@mentor.cc.purdue.edu, cogsdell@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (tony c) writes:
>>> Could this have somthing to do with (RACEism) in America?
>>> 
>>> ....Because black men were slaves to white men?
>>> 
>>> ....Because black men have less opportunites to obtain wealth in Amerikkka? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Suggestions?          
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks!                                  Tony L. Cogdell
>>
>>Tony,
>>
>>Funny you should ask that question too! I also never seem
>>to get a reak answer when I ask certain people why they date
>>this or that group. Did you read my post (kinda long I admit)
>>number 17395?
>>
>>In it I spoke about a question I asked a certain asian females:
>>
>>"Was race EVER a factor in your decision to date a white guy? 
>>If not, why didn't you date a black guy or Latino if race
>>was not really an issue?"
>
>But many of us did.  Right, ladies?  Why didn't we discuss this?  Actually,
>Clare Chu did.  The rest of probably refrained because the subject was AMCF 
>vs AFCM. 
>
>diana

That might be true Diana, but once before I asked a question pertaining to
African-American Males dating Asian Females, and nobody then wanted to give
an *honest* answer.  It was funny how the only people who responded were those
Asian Females who had no problem with dating Black guys.  And all of those
arrogant White guys who want every discussion to revolve around their
relationships with AF's got their way, and my original question hardly got
addressed.  So somebody please tell us, why is it that Asians have a problem
specifically with their women dating Blacks?  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,alt.discrimination
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Asian cliques.  Why?
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 03:09:59 GMT

In article <QDV=pl-@engin.umich.edu> Michael F. Kamprath
<kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.065201.8195@leland.Stanford.EDU> Dwight Joe,
>underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>In article <1992Dec17.025126.22261@hspice.portal.com>
>>georgew@hspice.portal.com (George Wu) writes:
>>>[Mr. Wu identifies the White-skinned group but leaves 
>>> the other groups un-identified.]
>>>     Here at Meta, we're trying to fill a position with a particular set of
>>>qualifications.  (If you're a headhunter, sorry, we don't need your services.)
>>>I started calling people who I know are qualified,especially those who I know
>>>are also looking to leave my old employer.  This means an unusual fraction of
>>>candidates I refer will be Asian or Asian-American. It's the same thing. My
>>>social circles include alot of professional aquaintances.  My social circles
>>>include alot of Asian-Americans.
>>>     Sounds alot like the old boy network in reverse now, doesn't it?
>>Interesting standard.  According to many Chinese-cu people, the "old
>>boy network" is bad if that network is White but is good if that
>>network is full of non-Whites--specifically Chinese-ge.  Interesting.
>I really don't think he intended it that way.  It is more a comment on human
>nature, that is, people tend to look out for the group they identify with. 
>This is a natural result from the fact that human beings are gregarious (sp?)
>creatures.  George Wu wasn't passing judgement, just bringing up a point and
>leaving the reader to judge.

But the trouble is the portion that Mr. Kamprath omitted.

Mr. Wu specifically states that he will not identify the ethnic
group which appears overwhelmingly as employees of a manager of the
same ethnicity.  Mr. Wu however explicitly identifies the skin-color
of the White people, who are complaining.

This is a double standard.  If he chooses to withhold ethnic and
racial information about one group, then he should withhold similar
information about the other group.

This suggest inherent bias, possibly reflecting the innate racist
beliefs of Mr. Wu.

------------------------------------------------------------------+------------
Jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka.                Sister, can you      |   \|  |`
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.           spare a coin?        |    | -+-
                                                                  |   /| / \
Copyright 1992.  Disclaimer:  1 + 1 = 3                           |
------------------------------------------------------------------+------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: AA scientists and the model minority myth was Re: Political Power
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:18:49 GMT

In article <Bz9zqH.1DI@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!) writes:
>In article <Bz9B6n.AJC@cs.uiuc.edu> watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
>>achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin) writes:
>>>Undergraduate men: 15.4 %
>>>            women: 13.1 %
>>>Graduate men: 6.7 %
>>>       women: 6.1 %
>>>Doctoral candidates men: 4.8 %
>>>                  women: 3.1 %
>>>How can these patterns be explained?
>>APA's were smart enough to notice the oversupply of Ph.D's before non-APA's.
>Damn right. a PhD is a long time investment, for the materialistic rewards
>you might get.  It's not something to do, just for the hell of it or for the
>"money".  It should be done only if you really love what you are studying,
>and your main goal is to contribute to science, without feeling gaining
>substantial monetary rewards for it (at least the majority of the time).
>A prof I had in first year, made up a little graph of accumulated income
>(average) of Bachelolar, Masters and PhD, over a life time. The best of
>is Masters. PhD's start off higher but the cumulative sum never makes up
>for the 4 years of work and experience lost to the Masters.  Again, there is
>an over abondance of PhD's.
>
>
>RT

  Also APA's are probably all in medical school!  Foreign-born Asians
  usually need to get PhDs so that they can stay in America.  They
  basically need to have a specialty that a company will say that
  no American can do this work and sponsor them for green cards.
  American-borns have no need to get a PhD if all they're after is
  money.  Therefore when I was in grad school, I might have looked
  like the majority, but in reality culture-wise I was a real minority.
  I just love going to school that's all, and am not all into money.
  Besides, I lost 5 years work and experience by going for the PhD!
  But it was fun and gave me all the outrageous experiences that I
  sometimes post about.  :-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: xi@intacc.uucp (Tony Fong)
Subject: Re:  One WM who loves Oriental Fs
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 07:29:44 GMT
Organization: Matrix Artists' Network


In article <1g8q7uINN7jf@agate.berkeley.edu> judyy@ocf.berkeley.edu (Judy Y. Tseng)  writes:

>In article <1992Dec10.071121.5032@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec10.054545.22825@colorado.edu> pellouch@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (Philip Pellouchoud) writes:
>
>>>I call that a desperate act of stupidity.  Hey fellahs, it's real simple,
>>>if you want the asian women to stop "going to the dark side" then stop
>>>treating them as second class citizens, stop treating them like what your
>>>cat threw up last night, and stop being so damn hysterical.  "If you do this,
>>>they will come...  If you do this, they will come... (repeated ad infinitum)" 
>>
>>	Oh thank you, Most Exalted White One, for blessing us with
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	your divine wisdom and insight.
>>
>>	So, Philip, have you stopped beating your wife?  Have you
>>	stopped molesting small children?  Have you stopped inserting
>>	rodents into your rectum?  Simple questions, Philip,
>>	please answer yes or no.
>
>Out of all these posters, Mr. Pellouchoud seems to be the most  rational,
>liberated, and non-misogynist. Save me, o great "Exalted White One"!!
>
>;)  %^)  ;)
>
>Things are not always what they appear to be.
>
>Judy
>
 
I havn't been following up on most of this.. But isn't quite simply that if
you treat another person kindly and with respect that you have a chance to
date whomever of any creed or religion?
 
It becomes sad when who you are doesn't matter anymore.. Its sad that your
outshell becomes more value than the inner self..
 
This whole topic reflects I guess how insecure we really all are.. Too bad, I
thought we have passed the 60s, and we were in the 90s.. Maybe not.
 
Tony Fong
----
+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+
+*+   ----        ----                    xi@intacc.uucp                  +*+
+-+    /         /-                    Toronto Ont. Canada                +-+
+*+   /ony      /ong             "Why do we call bulidings buildings?     +*+
+-+                             They seem pretty built to me!"            +-+
+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+===+
                                *8P
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: georgew@hspice.portal.com (George Wu)
Subject: Re: Asian-male stereotyping, how?
Organization: Meta - Software
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:36:39 GMT

In article <lj1sl8INNk7@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM (Living on Planet Me) writes:

>As I understand it in Japan, tattoos, especially full-body tattoos are
>associated with criminals, particularly Yakuza. So anybody who has a tattoo
>is thought to be part of the Japanese crime gangs.
>
>Now time out for a little drooling on my part (indulge me) - I find the
>Japanese full-body tattoos to be incredibly erotic. If anybody saw the
>movie "Showdown in Little Tokyo" with Brandon Lee and Dolph Lundgren 
>(affectionately known as Dunk Lunkhead), the Japanese Yakuzas all had
>full-body tattoos. Wow and woW.

     Why, how typically Chinese-cu.  For those who don't know, Chinese-cu
like Ms. Liu (?) advocate the permanent marking of supposed criminals.  This
cruel practice is promoted by Chinese-cu idiots and Nazis.

:-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

							George



-- 
----
George J Wu,  Superior Maker of Technical Snafus,  georgew@metasw.com
Meta-Software,  1300 White Oaks Road,  Campbell, CA 95008,  (408) 369-5400
Never be the first to believe.  Never be the last to deceive.  ---  Chess
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: (defensio libertatis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: ...or purple
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:16:11 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: train.ebay.sun.com

In article 2163@cheshire.oxy.edu, ac@cheshire.oxy.edu (Aileen Cho) writes:
> 
>   I've been pretty busy in the past couple of weeks, so it was surprising
> to read a post mentioning, apparently, that people responded to the
> "don't-care-if-he's-green" remark I made with admonitions to "be honest"
> and "admit I'm racist" etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Actually, I found the "I don't care if he's green" remark rather upbeat
and cute. I really wish people could approach life with that kind of open-minded attitude. And no doubt, it says something about you when you do make such
positive remarks. Sometimes the atmosphere on the net can get too thick and
heavy.

>   Everybody has the right to their opinion, but don't label me under your
> code. When I say something, I mean it, and nothing more, nothing less.

A point well taken.

>   Ain't it a funny world when people actually don't WANT to believe that
> there are places and there are communities where people of different races
> interact with each other according to what they're interested in and what
> personality traits they look for in friends. So sue me for not having been
> persecuted in my childhood because of my ethnicity.

I know of genuine, loving relationships between members of different racial
groups. I idealize such relationships myself. One of my favorite writers is
E. M. Forster (who happened to be gay also, BTW). He felt for people in
interracial friendships ("A Passage to India") and taboo (gay) relationships ("Maurice") because of the contempt which the surrounding society heaped 
upon them. More power to people who speak and act open-mindedly.

Let's not forget however the incongruency between how we speak and how we really act
when it comes to race relations. Most people in this country SAY they are open-minded
and yet ACT undeniably preferential in their treatment of other people. If we 
were to take people's word for it that they were color-blind and not racist,
we would look like the most tolerant nation on earth. Yet we know that just isn't
true.

No one WANTS to be labelled racist or preferential because it is culturally
disapproved of in the multi-racial US. So we SPEAK "correctly" so to speak.
There's nothing wrong of course with that. It's wonderful. 

But actions speak louder than words when it comes to showing our true feelings
about race. And people say they would date anyone despite his or her race, yet
the statistical results point to definite preferential behavior of some kind 
going on. (Though I wouldn't go so far as to think anyone should feel shamed 
or exposed by what the data on interracial dating could imply.)

Thanks for sharing.

-M. Aurelius Insularum 

=======================================================
"Maedchen aus Ost-Berlin, das war wirklich schwer...
 Ich musste gehen, obwohl ich so gerne noch geblieben waere"
                                 
                          --U. Lindenberg "Live in Leipzig"
From: dtwei@acsu.buffalo.edu (Danielle T Wei)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Sins of Hollywood
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:52:16 GMT
Organization: UB


Hi, before they kick me out of here again, I'd like know some of the worst
stereotypes Hollywood has set on Asian males..
(is there a list out there?)

In any case, I'll name some off the top of my head:

Character - Movie
-----------------------------------------
Long Duck Dong - (what's the name of the movie with Sixteen Candles?)
The Asian Kung Fu dude - Bloodsport (the one van Damme "defeated" at the end)
Fu Manchu - lots of 'em I think, Fu Manchu's Castle?


Add on!

NW
---
NOT Danielle Wei
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Kristi Yamaguchi
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 22:01:18 EST
Organization: University of Michigan, Aerospace Engineering
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7594CAC6703C4FC@sprl-mac2016.sprl.umich.edu>
X-Xxdate: Sat, 19 Dec 92 04:03:24 GMT

In article <14980@cis.rand.org> Cary Ho, caryho@cis.rand.org writes:
>  Hi people, I've been a reader of this group for sometime but never
>  posted before.  I remember awhile back there was some talk about
>  Kristi Yamaguchi not being asian enough so I just have to share this
>  with you when I saw this ad in the L.A. Times today 12/19/92.  This
>  ad depicts a picture of K.Y. in a pair of color contacts that is not so,
>  shall I say, asian-ge.  The caption says, and I quote:
>
>   "When I want a little change I go green, violet or gray.  DuraSoft Colors
>    can change your eye color in a wink of an eye even if you don't need
>    visual correction.  With 18 shades ranging from subtle to dramatic,
>    you'll find DuraSoft Colors that are right for you."
>
>  I don't know whether to laugh or feel sad or happy that K.Y. is making
>  money from this ad.   Just something for you all to ponder.
>

It makes me sad because I  have always wondered what I'd look like with brown eyes,
but no one has ever offered to pay me to find out.  But I guess it wouldn't
be proper for a "blue eyed"-ge  to walk around looking like a "green eyed"-ge.
I mean, imagine the what people might say 8^O 

======================================================================
|Michael F. Kamprath                   | The University of Michigan  |
|  kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu |      Aerospace Engineering  |
|  kamprath@engin.umich.edu            |      Graduate Student       |
======================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american