HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rick@ee.uwm.edu (Rick Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Distributing Linux With Less Money
Date: 15 Oct 1992 19:12:01 GMT
Organization: Just me.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33
Summary: There's gotta be a better way...

I kinda like the "distribution chain" idea, but it needs a few things...

	1.  You need *several* people with the capability to
		get the latest distribution or patches via ftp
		and put them onto floppies.  Each of these people
		would be the beginning of a chain.
	    The best candidates for this job would be those with
		high-speed connections and the proper hardware
		(i.e.: an Ethernet-connected PC or workstation
			with a real-time connection to the I-Net).

	2.  Where do the diskettes come from?  The full SLS dist.
		is *nineteen* disks... that's about [US]$12.00!
	    Maybe each chain could have nineteen 'pendants' who
		would each send one diskette to the chain's head.
		Of course, each chain would have to be composed of
		people who need the same size (3.5"/5.25") media.

	3.  How do we ensure that everyone in the chain will get
		their turn with the distribution in a timely manner?
	    Penalties for non-compliance do *not* help the people
		who haven't gotten the disks yet.  Any ideas???

It has been justly observed that ignorance is preferable to error.N.Webster
Rick Miller   <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <rick@discus.mil.wi.us>   Ricxjo Muelisto
Occupation:  Husband, Father, WEPCo. WAN Mgr., Discus Sys0p, and  Linux fan
From: rick@ee.uwm.edu (Rick Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Backing Up Linux
Date: 7 Oct 1992 12:40:57 GMT
Organization: Just me.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33
Summary: Multi-volume tar'ing to disks
Keywords: backups, disk, multi-volume, tar

Doing a `tar -h` shows me that there's much more to the GNU tar than I
understand...  It appears that GNU tar knows how to make multi-volume
'.tar' files and how to archive directly to disk, but *I* don't know how.

Where could I get some good documentation on GNU tar?
Do all these features work under Linux?

I'm thinking that with my meager 27 Megabyte Linux partition, and that only
fractionally filled at the moment, I might do an easy backup by doing:

	tar -cvf - / | compress | tar -c[multi-disk options]

		the first 'tar' being used to *collect* all the files,
		and the second 'tar' being used to save the archive to
		multiple floppies in a multi-volume sort of way. (?)

Will this work?  Is there a better way?  What about:

	tar -cvz[multi-disk options] /
	       ^ Does the "z" option work when *creating* such an archive?

Rick Miller   <rick@ee.uwm.edu> | <rick@discus.mil.wi.us>   Ricxjo Muelisto
Occupation:  Husband, Father, WEPCo. WAN Mgr., Discus Sys0p, and  Linux fan
From: badger@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Sail 5.2 now available on sunsite.unc.edu
Keywords: SAIL GAME
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:52:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: phylo.badger.719103159
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

I know I've already announced it, but many people have been e-mailing me
asking where Sail is. It is now available on sunsite.unc.edu in 
/pub/Linux/games/sail.tar.Z. It will eventually be available on tsx-11 when
the adminstrators get a chance to move it into a public directory.

I'm surprised at the response I got --- people must really want games!
Porting BSD games doesn't seem too hard -- you just have to change a few
function names and constants...I bet most people could port a favorite
game to Linux....Much simpler than porting their favorite LISP dialect
or window manager :)
From: heeb@watson.ibm.com (Hansruedi Heeb)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: PS/2 mouse recognized, but not working (0.98 SLS)
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:45:45 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

I have problems getting a PS/2 mouse to work under 0.98 SLS.
After applying Dean Troyer's patch to the kernel my PS/2
mouse is installed at boot time (I hope that patch makes it
into the "official" sources, Linus are you listening ?).

Unfortunately I cannot get it to work under X no matter what I put
into 'Xconfig'. What is the correct entry for a PS/2 mouse ?
'sthomas@worldbank.org' reported a similar problem with a 
Logitech busmouse. So there seems to be something wrong.
Any clues ?

Hansruedi Heeb - heeb@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Smail (from Mailpak 1.3) won't compile
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Distribution: comp
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:41:24 GMT

Vince Skahan (vince@halcyon.com) wrote:

: Incidentally, the Taylor uucp 'smail3' is *NOT* smail3.1 !
: It's smail2.5, which is from about 1987.  It's pretty simple to
: get the 'real' smail3.1.28 to compile under Linux.
: 
: Note that you will have considerable pain in getting smail3.1.25
: to compile.  Switching to the current version was a piece of cake.

smail-3.1.28 will be included in mailpak-1.4, which will be released as soon as
taylor-uucp 1.04 gets out of beta.  Currently, everything works except the
bidirectional 'i' protocol.

I'm considering asking Ted to make space on tsx-11 for mailpak, so people can
get the pieces they need - I've got cnews up and running, as well as elm-2.4,
taylor-uucp 1.04, and smail-3.1.28.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                  erc@apple.com                     801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
From: Michael.Whitlatch@f460.n3625.z1.fidonet.org (Michael Whitlatch)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Thoughts on target marke
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 18:28:10 -0800

Sunday October 04 1992 11:54, Joe Klemmer wrote to Todd Radel:

 TR=>> What I'm saying is this:  if we had a complete, ready-to-run
setup
 TR=>> appropriate for BBS operators, I think we could attract them in
droves.
 TR=>> Most of them thought OS/2 2.0 was going to cure all their
problems,
 TR=>> only to discover that it caused quite a few of its own!  (I
know.)
 TR=>> What does everyone think?  Am I off base or does this make
sense?

 JK>         You hit it right on the head, Todd.  If there was at least
the
 JK> basics for running a board, that would really help make Linux take
off.

    I think it's a GREAT idea! I've got the hardware, machines and lan
in place if I could maximize the operating possibilities it'd make
running this system a breeze, and allow me to do so much more with it!

Michael

 * Origin: Vantage Point BBS   (1:3625/460)

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: hlu@eecs.wsu.edu (H.J. Lu)
Subject: Re: ANSWER: (Re: GCC report segmentation fault and dump core.)
Organization: School of EECS, Washington State University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 17:53:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.145332.22468@crd.ge.com>, davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen) writes:
|> Now that info-zip has released 1.9, there are some good technical

FYI, info-zip 1.9 patch 1 and unzip 5.0 are on disk3 of Linux Base System.
But, I don't use them. I put them there by request.

|> reasons why using zip would be better than compressed tars:
|>   1. files are smaller
|>   2. you have a CRC and can tell right away when something is munged
|>   3. Since you can tell which file is munged you have a prayer of
|>      getting someone to send you just that file.
|> 
|> And the political reasons why we won't:
|>   1. it's not POSIX
|>   2. zip is a PC program (so use zoo, which started in UNIX)
|>   3. it's unsupported
|>   4. people won't understand something new.
|> 
|> Anyway, I've made the suggestion. At least maybe the archive
|> maintainers could create a CRCLIST file for each directory, so people
|> could tell if a file was corrupt after they download it. This could be
|> done by cron on a regular basis, so it's not an ongoing effort.
|> 
|> If this CRCLIST does get done, I highly commend Dhesi's brik program,
|> fast 32 bit CRC with the ability to do checks out of a file list. I use
|> it to check vital stuff for corruption daily. Public domain, source
|> availbale, runs under Linux.
|> 
|> -- 
|> bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
|>     Keyboard controller has been disabled, press F1 to continue.


H.J.
From: mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: problems mounting floppy drives
Date: 10 Oct 1992 00:23:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu



/etc/mount now gives me nice core dumps when trying to mount
floppy drives. any1 having the same probs????

BTW, i have jump4.1 and 0.98 compiled under 0.98 plus all 
those new root files from H.J.
i couldn't find mount in those. Perhaps someone knows where the
source is???

Thanx in advance

-- 
maThiEu a. LeWis    "ask me why and i'll die/and if you must go to work
cyber-mercenary      tomorrow/well, if i were you i wouldn't bother/for there
Thieves Like Us      are brighter sides to life/and I should know because I've
mal11@Po.cwru.edu    seen them/but not very often/am I still ill?"
From: lairdt@storm.CS.ORST.EDU (Tom Laird)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: 0.98 and XFree86
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:29:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: CS.1992Oct09.082913.27166
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Oregon State University
Originator: lairdt@storm.CS.ORST.EDU

I picked up the SLS 0.98 package today and installed it with no
problems. There were two points where it said it couldn't create a 
couple uucp.info files, and another place where it couldn't link
/usr/include/adm & /usr/include/linux, but other than that it went ok.

Problem:
	I purchased a Mentor VGA 1meg card, et4000 chipset. Under the
	Xfree86 from tsx-11 and 0.96c, it worked as far as running into
	not supporting my Logitech Busmouse as it could. It did put
	up the screen and boot up the wondows, but startx then just
	seemed to die since I couldn't do anything. Now under 0.98 SLS
	I don't even get that much. Clock reports 25.2 28.3 32.5 & 36.0
	as the rates for my card, and I'm running on an NEC 3D, so max.
	res. is 1024x768 interlaced - I'd like to do 800x600.

Question:
	How do I setup my Xconfig file for this? I've been messing with
	the file for quite a while with no luck so far. Startx ids my et4000,
	says something about something wrong with my mouse plus a socket
	error on bootup, and then bombs out saying it can't find a 
	clock rate to match the mode selected. Does anyone have a set
	of ModeDB's that I could look at, plus their clock definition line?
	Heck, how about the entire Xconfig file (I've got disk space :-) ) ??

Any help would be of great use.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin N9ITP)
Subject: Re: man(1) bug?
Reply-To: hpa@nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin)
Organization: You must be kidding!
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 11:02:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.190827.22918@mo.hobby.nl> of comp.os.linux,
  hans@mo.hobby.nl (Hans Oey) writes:
> 
> This has nothing to do with man. You could just as
> easily do a `chgrp deamon' on the file.
> It's the `chmod 2777' that should not be allowed
> for foreign groups.

If you don't belong to the daemon group??

	/hpa


-- 
INTERNET:  hpa@nwu.edu   TALK:      hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
BITNET:    HPA@NUACC     IBMNET:    16331@IBMX400
HAM RADIO: N9ITP         NeXTMAIL:  hpa@lenny.acns.nwu.edu
while ( 1 ) ; cp /dev/zero /dev/null & end
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: satishc@microsoft.com (Satish Chittamuru)
Subject: Re: (Q) Various Subjects
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:35:52 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <rickm.921011224335@eng.auburn.edu> rickm@eng.auburn.edu (Rick Martindale) writes:
 > 
 > Question 3.
 >   I am running minicom.  When the cursor reaches the bottom line,
 > it continues to <cr> but without a <lf> causeing the output to
 > write over itself.  Any fixes ...?

I noticed this problem when running minicom from an XTerm. The solution
was to set the TERM to vt100 and unset TERMCAP. Try it and see if it
works for you.

 > Thanks
 > rickm@eng.auburn.edu


-- 
Satish K. Chittamuru				satishc@microsoft.com
=====
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein, either stated or implied, are
solely my own and do not reflect Microsoft's views in any manner.
From: tdunbar@vttcf.cc.vt.edu (Thomas Dunbar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: TeX works --- xdvi doesn't work
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:26:21 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA


 make sure that u are using the xdvi in /usr/TeX/bin..older ones couldnt
handle dvi's with many fonts (in fact if ur TeXbin.T.Z is old it might
still have the buggy xdvi)
  the util.c file in the xdvi src declared 
    int errno;
 which should be removed if linking shared so the right errno stuff gets 
linked in.
  thomas
 ps
  give xdvi a -l flag to have it report what its loading/trying to load
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: Ching-Hsiang Chen <chchen@stat.fsu.edu>
Subject: Why no PgDn,PgUp in Vi?
Reply-To: chchen@stat.fsu.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 07:39:16 GMT


Someone asked this before and Linus answered that it's meant to be more
Unix (or VT100) compatible. I still remember the old good days that I
finally was very happy with VI (I hated it before) in that I can use
PageDown and PageUp to move around.  I even rewrote .joerc to make JOE
use the keys. That way made me feel editing is not a horrible job in
Unix.

Now I have to go back to the old <Ctrl>+F and <Ctrl>+B
which reminds me those old WORDSTAR days.

Since Linux is designed to run on a "PC", why don't use the keys? 
???? compatible? For whom? those whose keyboards w/o PgDn and PgUp? :)
Please enlighten me.

Steve Chen         chchen@stat.fsu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: nomad@castle.org (Lee Damon)
Subject: question about X11 under SLS 0.98. xinit fails socket startup
Organization: The Castle, not-yet-Public Access Un*x Systems; Mahopac, NY
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:25:39 GMT

I'm running "raw" SLS 0.98.0. I've installed all of the disks
(a, b, c, x) and tried to run X as a regular user and as root.

I'm aware of the perms problems that SLS has, and think I've fixed them
all. What I'm getting is the following error:

	$ xinit

	Creating TCP socket: Invalid artument

	Fatal server error:
	Cannot establish tcp listening socket
	giving up.
	xinit:  Invalid argument (errno 22): unable to connect to X server
	xinit:  No such process (errno 3): Server error.


I've tried to find documentation, but am unable to. Before I start really
compiling everything in sight, I thought I'd ask if anyone out there had
the answer already. Please email me, as I'm sure everyone is sick of
these questions. (If anyone else wants the answer, presuming I ever get
one, email me and I'll forward it to you.)

hmm... I just looked at my VGA card, and it has an ET3000AX chip on
it.  I presume this is death for me running X? What's the major
difference between the 3000 and 4000, and can someone who is deeply
involved with the linux X project recommend a CHEAP but workable VGA
card?  (I find it difficult to believe that this chip is the reason
that I get the above error, but I'm not up on this software yet, I'm
more than happy to learn.)

ADVthanksANCE
nomad
-- 
play: castle!nomad or nomad@castle.org                                 \
work: nomad@watson.ibm.com                  - Lee "nomad" Damon -       \
Seneschal; The Castle, Public Access Un*x Systems.                     / \
  - Unashamed -                                                       /   \
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux,comp.unix.3bsd,to.sugar
From: rgrimes@agora.rain.com (Rodney Grimes)
Subject: Re: SCSI controllers supported
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 06:52:06 GMT

drew@ophelia.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt) writes:

>In article <ZH1KMRL@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>Is the Always Technologies IN2000 compatible with either 386BSD or Linux?

>No. We had been looking at Always support under Linux, but Always refused
>to give out technical documentation, so it probably won't happen.

I have been in contact with Always and have the technical programmers manual
for the IN2000.  To my knowledge there is also at least one other person
working on IN2000 drivers for 386BSD that has obtained this documentation.

It is copyrighted so you have to get it from them, the order number is
VCN56-2.  If you talk real nice and explain to them that you are writting
a device driver for some flavor of unix and that the work well be placed
in the public domain they may give you the manual for free.  It normally
goes for $50.00 US.

I am working on a driver for 386BSD in my spare time (which I have very
little of currently) so don't expect anything until the end of the year
or so.

Also the IN2000 is not a very fast controller (No bus mastering only a
fifo 16-bit's wide).  So don't expect any blazing performance from this
one, just an inexpensive SCSI solution at best.

I would be interested in information from anyone who has written device
drivers for the WD33C93A SCSI Bus Interface Controller Chip.  This is 
the chip used on the IN2000.
-- 
Rod Grimes						rgrimes@agora.rain.com
Accurate Automation Company          All opinions belong to me and my company!
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: hlu@eecs.wsu.edu (H.J. Lu)
Subject: Re: FS corruption under 0.97pl6
Organization: School of EECS, Washington State University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 04:08:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.115534.21223@csd.uwe.ac.uk>, d_smith@csd.uwe.ac.uk (Dylan Smith) writes:
|> : of your RAM. If it is slower than 60ns. I am afraid you need a very big cache.
|> 
|> How big is big? 256k cache? 64k?
|> -- 
|> Email : JANET  dylan@uwe.hal | Everywhere else : dylan@hal.uwe.ac.uk
|>              d_smith@uwe.csd |                 d_smith@csd.uwe.ac.uk

I don't know. Big enough for Linux to run without any memory problem. I
have said you should first eliminate any other possible causes.

H.J.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: weiss@staff.tc.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: Using a Bernoulli Box with Linux.
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 03:50:08 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.183206.27480@eng.umd.edu> keane@eng.umd.edu (Christopher Matthews Keane) writes:
>I've played with Linux on other machines and would greatly like to get
>it up and running on my machine at home.  Sadly, I have too much
>investment in DOS software, etc. on my home machine (Work is a joy to
>be in UNIX :-) ) and I only have a 90 MB HD.  I am interested in
>purchasing one of IOMEGA's new PC-Powered 90's -- this would allow
>separate cartridges for BC++ 3.0, OS/2, etc... and I would like to set
>up a Linux cartridge.  Does anyone have any experience with this.
>Does Linux even recognize a Bernoulli?  How about running it from the
>OS/2 boot manager????
>
>Thanks.
>Christopher Keane
>keane@earthsun.umd.edu
>
Iomega DOES have drivers for OS/2 2.0 available for $49, and if you format
FAT the media is removable.

Don't think Linux 'sees' proprietary SCSI cards; if it found an Adaptec 1542
as host to the Bernoulli it MIGHT treat is as a huge unremovable floppy.

I, too, would like Bernoulli support. Just got the kit through HDI and it's a
cheap way to add storage--I like it.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: heim@peanuts.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Gerald Heim)
Subject: Re: Compiling TIN doesn't work
Organization: organisiert? ich? ach was!
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:12:07

In article <Z0s7RB2w164w@field.ichaos.nullnet.fi> Kristo Kaarlo Matias  <kkk@field.ichaos.nullnet.fi> writes:

   signal.c: In function 'set_signal_handlers':
   signal.c:45: 'SIGBUS' undeclared (first use this function)
   [...]
   signal.c: In function 'signal_handler':
   signal.c:102: 'SIGBUS' undeclared (first use this function)

   What the heck is this 'SIGBUS'? I didn't found it at /usr/include/*.
   I have Linux 0.98 and GCC 2.2.2d. I compiled TIN with -DPOSIX_JOB_CONTROL,
   is this ok?

	   -kkk-

SIGBUS dosn't exist on Linux. Some Programs (e.g. tgif) try to catch it,
because if SIGBUS occurs something REALLY BAD has happend somewhere between 
your processor and your memory (bad alignment or something like that), and
these programs try to make a emergency-backup or just print an error
message before the core is dumped. I think a 386 hasn't any options
to do unaligned data acess like a mc68020 or RISC processors.

Maybe it would be the best if we had a dummy for SIGBUS....????

gjh
From: glenw@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Glenn Wasserman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: This is interesting...
Date: 17 Oct 92 03:46:16 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Today was the first day I had ever heard of Linux.. this is all new to me.
I am interested in getting Linuz running on my system, but I have a lot
of questions. The first, I guess, is where can I find a faq? Provided I 
can't get a hold of one, I have a couple of quick questions to get me 
started. 

1] I have a C: drive with OS/2 2.0 (HPFS). My D: drive is FAT. Both drives
   physical 100 MB drives (one partition each).  I like OS/2, and I don't
   want to have to reinstall, or even disturb the setup I have now. I heard
   that I can install Linux on my system so I can boot from a floppy drive
   , load the system, and then mount both my HPFS and FAT drives? To do this
   I assume that I would have to reformat (repartition) my logical D: drive
   into two partitions. I wouldn't mind doing this. I just don't want to 
   disturb the installation on my C: drive. I am aware that the OS/2 boot 
   manager can deliver the functionality that I desire but I would have to
   partition my C: drive into two (one for boot manager and one for OS/2) and
   reinstall. I am using the beta version of OS/2 that contains the 32-bit
   graphics engine and the win3.1 support. 

2] Will I see adequate performance on a 486/33 system with only 8 meg of RAM?

3] Since I do a lot of word processing as well as programming (I'm a student)
   I'd like to know if there are any word processors out there for Linux, as
   well as any other "killer apps" that would make me want to change from 
   the fully preemptive 32-bit OS that I'm using (OS/2).

4] I hear that Linux can be made to run DOS apps. Is this true, to what
   extent, how quickly, and can it run windows 3.1 (at least in Standard Mode)
   ????

I appreciate any help I can get on this, I'd really like to get this up and
running (I like the sound of it and I'm anxious...:) )

-Glenn Wasserman


glenw@remus.rutgers.edu
glenw@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: NU013809@NDSUVM1.BITNET (Greg Wettstein)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: SCSI tape driver needed.
Date: 15 Oct 92 12:57:48 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

We are currently planning on purchasing a tape sub-system which will
serve as the backup media for our network of LINUX(c) machines.  Current
plans are for an Archive ST-250 with some breed of an SCSI controller.
I prefere the Adaptek controllers but need a recommendation as to which
model number, e.g. 1540, 1542b etc.  The reason we are choosing SCSI is
to give us future flexibility for adding additional disk storage as
well as scanning facilities.

The other concern is of course a driver for LINUX(c).  Is there an SCSI
tape driver available or int the works?  I am currently in the process
of joining the TAPE channel but would appreciate any information that
the newsgroup could pitch our way.  Thanks much for any information which
may be forthcoming.

                            As always,
                            Dr. G.W. Wettstein
                            Oncology Research Division Computing Facility
                            Fargo Clinic / MeritCare

                            UUCP: uunet!plains!wind!greg
                            INTERNET: greg%wind.uucp@plains.nodak.edu
                            Phone: 701-234-2833

`The truest mark of a man's wisdom is his ability to listen to other
 men expound their wisdom.'