HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: pets (was Re: LEATHER)
Date: 10 Apr 92 07:15:32 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1966@ra.nrl.navy.mil> rovel@donatello.nrl.navy.mil (Amy Rovelstad) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.083521.16470@rtf.bt.co.uk> traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes regarding a previous poster:
>>
>>Keeping pets at all is inconsistent with your stated objectives.
>>
>>The  problem  is  that  you may have taken the animals in for compassionate
>>reasons,  and  this  cannot  be  faulted,  however I think that pet keeping
>>should  as  a rule not be part of a Vegan lifestyle. It only encourages the
>>breeding of more animals, and they are normally fed on other animals.
>>
>>If  one  likens  meat  eating to cannibalism then one can liken pet keeping
>>to  slavery.  You may treat your slaves with love and respect, but they are
>>still slaves.
>>
>>Please  note  that  I  am  not  recommending that you get rid of your pets,
>>just   that   I  don't  think  you  should  replace  them  when  they  die.
>
>I am just curious.  Do you make any differentiation between pets obtained
>via pet stores/breeders/puppy mills and those rescued through the SPCA
>(for example)?  It seems to me that once the animal has been born that 
>adopting them is morally acceptable, since the other alternative is for them
>to be killed (as a direct consequence of human irresponsibility).  Of course, 
>this must be coupled with spaying/neutering etc, and in an ideal world where 
>the vegan/animal rights lifestyle has been universally adopted there will 
>be no more of these discarded animals and the practice will come to a stop. 
>However, until those utopian times descend upon us, there will still be a 
>need for adoption.
>
I think I basically said that. One cannot fault someones motives for
saving the life of an animal, but that still doesn't make pet keeping
alright. Just as we need to reduce the population of pigs, cows and sheep
to sensible levels so too do we need to stop breeding animals for pets.


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: pc@ALEX.ims.bellcore.com (Peter Clitherow)
Subject: message for mark johnson.
Reply-To: <pc@bellcore.com>
Organization: Bellcore - IMS, Morristown, NJ
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 14:53:24 GMT

Mark, mail to you keeps failing because of someone truncating the host
spitfire to spitfir.  do you have an internet address rather than UUCP?

    Did you make your trip? How did you make out?  I found my
    maps of MC yesterday - the Restaurante Cluny is on Avenida
    de la Paz, near Avenida Revolucion (the meracado flores is

yes, we just got back yesterday...  we wound up spending only two days
in mc, and hence sadly, didn't get to the places you wrote about.  we
did find others in other cities, which i'll send you descriptions of if
you like...

cheers,
peter

peter clitherow, pc@bellcore.com, (201) 829-5162, DQID: H07692
bellcore, 445 south street, room 2f-085, morristown, nj 07962
From: fawcett@unix1.cs.umass.edu (Tom Fawcett)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: UPC chicken vigil at Perdue plant in Salisbury
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:19:14 GMT
Reply-To: fawcett@unix1.cs.umass.edu (Tom Fawcett)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:
>In article <92101.174906CGAVER@auvm.american.edu> Cynthia S. Gaver <CGAVER@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>>Congratulations on the organization of this event!  Good luck to anyone who
>>would take on the likes of Frank Perdue, who offended the likes of Oprah
>>Winfrey and sentient beings everywhere including his very own staff.  What
>>better way to spend a spring day by raising consciousness on the Eastern Shore!
>
>First, how can you use the terms "Oprah Winfrey" and 
>"sentient beings" in the same sentence?  She would
>be as bad as Geraldo, except that he has a dick ;-)
>
>Seriously, ~consciousness raising" and "chickens"
>in the same sentence?  Either you dont know much  
>about chickens or you dont know much about conciousness.

Well, it looks like you can find the nouns.  Why not try reading all those
little words in between, too.  It turns out they're important.
Organization: Senior, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:29:36 -0400 
From: "David F. McWade" <dm3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Vegetarians and Missionaries

>	Rich's sarcasm may have gotten the better of him, but your
>	claim is dangerous.  An extremely low fat diet is of questionable
>	value to a diabetic.  It may have advantages, but it may have
>	equally serious disadvantages.

Since most "normal humans" can function on diets ranging from 4-10% fat,
please give me a reason why diabetics might not be able to.

>	Your claim that diabetes is more aggravated by fat intake
>	than sugar intake is, well, let's be generous and say it's
>	just controversial.  Ask *any* diabetes professional and they	
>	will tell you that while fat intake is factor to be watched,
>	it's not nearly as important as watching simple sugar intake.
>	Or better yet, get two diabetics, feed one a diet high in
>	simple sugar but low in fat, and feed the other a high fat
>	diet.  Hell, make it all saturated fat if you like.  And see
>	who gets sick quicker.

Yes, that would be the perfect study.  Why don't you recommend to the
Diabetes Association that such a study be attempted.  Would they even do
it?

David McWade
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipies
Date: 15 Apr 92 11:22:42 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr14.204141.19204@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
>Count me the third then.  I've been reading this group and rec.food.cooking 
>for three years, and Carol Miller-Tutzauer has been consistently one of 
>the nicest, most courteous posters in any group, and I have always 
>appreciated both her phenomenal knowledge of food and food preparation and 
>her generosity in sharing her resources. 
>
I  (and  I  am  sure  others)  consider  someone  who  *insists* on posting
articles to rec.food.veg containing animal products as uncourteous.

>I am disgusted by Michael Traub's insufferable rudeness to Carol among 
>others, and bored with the way he's been monopolising what has in the past
>been an interesting and useful discussion group. 
>
My insufferable rudeness to Carol? This is what she had to say about me:

In article <1992Apr10.165655.25438@acsu.buffalo.edu> riacmt@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Carol Miller-Tutzauer) writes:
>Traub -- spout off if you wish, but you know absolutely nothing
>about the life span of eskimos, let alone WHY it would be shorter.
>I don't suppose living in a hostile environment where nature rules
>rather than humankind has anything to do with it?
>
>Traub -- get some work done, will ya?
>
>me (and I'm about ready to go on hiatus again; this newsgroup
>    seems to have started its inevitable dissent into the pits
>    of fanaticism and lack of reason)

Apart  from  showing her total ignorance about Eskimos (if she knew so much
about  Eskimos  she  would know that they don't like to be called "Eskimos"
it  is  Innuit  slang),  she  posted  this off her own bat without my being
rude  to  her  at all. So please don't tell me that I am being insufferably
rude.

Also  with  respect  to  my  "monopolising"  this  newsgroup  I  have  five
megabytes  of  back  articles  saved, would you like me to send them to you
so  you  can  see how many of them are "boring" and discussion free? I post
a  large  amount  of  factual  data to this group, Vegan/Vegetarian society
information,   recipes,   nutrition   information   and  information  about
restaurants  all  over  the  world.  I also have posted *more* recipes than
anyone else in rec.food.veg in the last two months.

P.S.  On  a  further  note of intolerance, if you don't like what I say you
have  the  choice. I get many supportive e-mail messages, I don't intend to
stop posting to satisfy your "disgust".


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
Organization: Senior, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Date: Tue,  7 Apr 1992 18:22:32 -0400 
From: "David F. McWade" <dm3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Ben & Jerry's ice cream


Hey,

I'm involved in the Earth Day Celebration, where people are going to be
giving away or selling Ben & Jerry's ice cream.

I was going to protest this, since I figure it was hypocritical to
support something in which proceeds were going to go toward saving the
rainforests but which actually might end up hurting the environment (by
supporting the beef industry).

Then I was told that Ben & Jerry's was a free-range farm and treated its
cows very nicely, so it (therefore) would not be hypocritical.

Can anyone confirm or deny this, and provide a fuller explanation?

Dave
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar)
Subject: Re: LEATHER
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:07:18 GMT

In article <52699@mimsy.umd.edu> tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss (not Swift, not Suiss, Swiss!)) writes:
>
>     BTW, I'm thinking of starting a leather-alternatives FAQ list.
>Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?
>

Absolutely!

- michael


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix)
Subject: Re: Re: the single veggie flame war
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 92 04:09:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <3540042@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> robertsl@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Laurie Roberts) writes:
>Ok, I've been reading this stuff long enough, and I think I'll add my .02
>
>My SO is not a vegetarian, nor is he ever likely to be.  We have a simple
>agreement:  I won't try to change what you eat if you won't try to change 

>So far, things are working out beautifully.  Now when children enter the
>equation, that will be a new challenge....  Any advice on that?
>
>-Laurie

Hi Laurie!

Just a note. Last year Vegetarian Times magazine had an article on
"mixed marriages". It was interesting, had some good ideas.

I am also a happy vegetarian in a "mixed" relationship. My honey is
such a great guy, I wouldn't care if he ate grubs and crickets! But 
he actually is a lot like your guy, mostly veggie.

If you have a library where you can get VT you ought to read the
articles, They dealt with the kid issue. They also had an article on
teenage vegetarians, another great relevant article!

Best wishes!

rf 
>
>
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recipies
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:00:03 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <1992Apr15.034030.1084@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Kamchatka Charlie writes:
>>Barbara 
>     Don't leave; stand up to the bozo.  If people keep running, he'll just
>keep removing the group of its moderate and kindly members, leaving this group
>to the insufferables.  I'd hate to see this group become a more widely
>distributed alt.flame.diet.
>
>kamchatka charlie
>kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu

And now I'm apparently a bozo because I don't believe meat eaters should
rule our lives. Nice one.



-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
From: lr1b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lisa M. Roraback)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: recipe request
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:49:57 GMT
Organization: Psychology, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


last night i tried a dish called cold noodles in spicy sesame paste. it
was a very simple dish. i was wondering if anyone knows how to make it.

thanks!

walk in peace;

lisa
From: ckw0@aber.ac.uk (Carl Keri Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Ben & Jerry's ice cream
Date: 10 Apr 92 13:29:04 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <31505@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hopper@cs.ucsd.edu (Steve Hopper) writes:
>
>There was an earlier post about how cows are able to keep producing
>milk, either with hormones or induced pregnancy.
>
>Now, I was not raised on a farm, but isn't the scenario something
>like that if a cow is routinely milked after giving birth that
>it will keep giving milk?  Maybe there is a limit to the time
>involved?  Sounds like basic anatomy to me!
>

I'm not too well clued up on cows, but I think they usually only milk for 
up to a year.  

Goats vary a great deal according to breed.  Anglo Nubian's  (roman nosed, 
floppy eared crazy buggers...) usually only milk for a year.  Swiss breeds
like the Togggenburg can 'run through' for two, or sometiemes three years,
while the Saanens (white) can run through for several years, which would
mean that you get several years milk with only one lot of surplus kids, which
you could keep on as pets if you wanted to.  

Goats also often come into milk WITHOUT ever producing a kid, and if they 
are not bred to a male will often have a psuedo-pregnancy and give birth to 
a bag of water (known as a cloudburst) and come into milk afterwards.  It's
not unheard of for male goats to milk either, but I wouldn't fancy having the
job of milking a stinking billy goat, or drinking the milk.  Bleaggghhhh!

It's not exactly basic anatomy - more physiology...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                      | ckw0@uk.ac.aberystwyth               |
| "Per Ardua Ad Overdraft"             | ckw0@uk.ac.aber.cs                   |
|                                      |      tardis ?                        |
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: A suggestion for rec.food.recepies
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 07:18:10 GMT

Kamchatka Charlie writes:

> . . .
>Now on to Micheal Traub.

>     Since my last posting on the 10th of April, I have counted the commentors
>in this arguement.  This is the list so far:
> . . .[straw poll omitted]
i

 I'm sorry to have to butt in, but this straw poll for and against
a particular person is really quite unseemly and divisive.

 Variability of individual styles of address give diversity
and interest to this conference.  Whatever you may think of
Michael Traub's style, by and large from my reading of the
exchanges, it is pretty much a tic for tac kind of affair.
What's wrong with that?  After all, we are adults who surely
can withstand a more forceful, if not an occasional raw remark. 
Our vegetarian skins are not that thin, even if they are less
opaque from animal fats.
 
 Now, the theme of this conference is that of vegetarianism.
This kind of posting of your straw poll regarding a personal
evaluation of one of our more active participants hardly 
does anything constructive towards promoting that theme.
At least Michael Traub has posted recipes and ably defended the
merits of vegetarianism against those who would quibble to no
end about irrelevant things or undermine our enthusiasm for 
our chosen life style. 

 Bringing up old grivances or attempting to settle a current 
one is really not very interesting for the rest of us.  Sure,
have it out with the person concerned, but please, address the
person concerned and not talk about that person to another.
Now, we may all make mistakes of civility and good form. 
Certainly, I am not faultless on that score, but at least I
did post a public apology when I lapsed into making a scarcastic
remark about Rich to another, instead of to Rich directly.  If you
got a personal battle with Michael, then talk to him directly
instead of attempting some kind of mob censure via a straw poll.

                                   ted
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 19:36:39 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: the single veggie flame war
 <3540042@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> <6pqj7mh.rfelix@netcom.com>

someone said that refusing to associate with people based on
their meat-eating is similiar to refusing to associate with
peopel based on religion.

quite right.  i have no fundamentalist christian, fundamentalist
moslem, or very conservative jewish friends (not sure which sect
that is, i'm just talking attitudes here), nor do i want any.
i wouldn't date a christian or a member of any other monotheistic
religion.  those people have a right to their religions and
practices, but i don't have the responsibility to support them in
it...

thsi looks like it could turn into a religious flame war here, but
i just had to comment on that point, i.e. that some people DO
discriminate on basis of religion when deciding their friendships.
i doubt too many afrrican-americans have KKK friends either...

i'm being tessted on my convictions about not dating omnivores
lately, tho...  we'll see how it goes, and whether it grows into
a move-in situation (doubtful).

                                  -ailsa
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: RECIPE: (VEGAN) Jupiter jumping beans and rice
Date: 16 Apr 92 08:33:42 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

While  Mary  has  been  tempting  us with her South American recipes I have
been  wondering  how  to present a selection of recipes of my own which can
best  be  decribed  as  "unethnic".  These recipes are abortions of recipes
and  ideas  from  many  countries  combined  together.  Last  night I had a
friend  over  for dinner and I served one of these meals. My friend thought
it  was  worthy  of  posting to the net. Later that evening we were looking
at  Jupiter  through my telescope so in an inspirational flash (!) the name
for the dish was formed.


3 tablespoons		Virgin Olive oil
4 medium sized		cloves garlic, crushed
1 large			spanish onion, chopped
1 teaspoon		crushed dried red chillies
3 teaspoons		cummin
1 teaspoon		ground black pepper
1 teaspoon		Vecon liquid Vegetable stock (or similar)
2 medium		courgettes, halved and chopped lengthways
1 teaspoon		Mixed herbs
1 can			chopped tomatoes with chilli spices
1 can			Old El-Paso Refried beans (the l__d free ones)
1 cup			Sweetcorn
1 tablespoon		Tomato Puree

Soften  the  garlic  and  onion  in the olive oil. Add the chillies, cummin
and  black pepper  and  fry  with  the  heat up till well combined. Add the
vegetable  stock,  courgettes  and  mixed  herbs  and  cook with the lid on
until  the  courgettes  begin  to  soften.  Add  the  cans  of tomatoes and
refried  beans.  Mash the refried beans into the dish. Cook with the lid on
until  a  creamy  consistency  is  achieved. Add the sweetcorn and keep the
lid  removed.  Add  enough  tomato puree to take away the "anaemic" look of
the  mixture.  The  dish  should  have the creamy consisitency of an Indian
Korma, maybe even slightly thicker.


1-1/2 cups		Wild Black Rice
1 teaspoon		Sea Salt
600 ml			Water

Boil  the  water  and add the salt. Add the unwashed rice and bring back to
the  boil.  Turn  the  heat  off  (this  works  best on electric) and leave
covered  for  half  an  hour. When the telly program has finished come back
and  bring  the  rice  to  the  boil (uncovered) till the rice is soft. You
should  also  have  run  out  of water by now. If you haven't drain off the
excess water. Do *not* rinse the rice.

Serve  the  Jupiter  jumping  beans  on  the  rice. Eat till finished. Wash
plates.  Watch  TV,  listen to Jazz, play on the computer, look at the sky.
Go to bed:->

One  advantage  of an "unethnic" dish is that no-one call tell me it should
have this or that in it (as has previously been the case!-).


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@rtf.bt.co.uk
From: rbw00@ccc.amdahl.com (  324  Richard Wilmot)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Antiargument & bickering. Was: A suggestion for rec.food.recipes
Keywords: This is NOT a recipe.
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:14:59 GMT
Reply-To: rbw00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (  324  Richard Wilmot)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Apr14.083145.22140@spider.co.uk> claudiak@spider.co.uk (Claudia Kale) writes:
>
>Nobody I know of is looking for ways to make their life harder. It
>would be lovely if everybody in the group held compatible views, but
>even if the group was a more restrictive rec.food.veg.friends.of.nutroast,
>it isn't going to happen. So how can you avoid being harangued while
>still allowing others their right to express their own views? Just
>skip the articles you don't want to read.

I'm trying to skip the articles I don't wnat to read. My problem with reading this
group is what engineers call SIGNAL to NOISE ratio. There is a lot of
noise here and extremely little information. Many of the arguments
are repetitive instead of informative. I am happy to hear informative
argument that might cause me to reexamine my behavior and beliefs but
tire of constant invective. I DO KNOW HOW TO USE A KILL FILE, but my
r.f.v KILL file seems to grow without bound. It also doesn't work
well when people are careless with the subject lines which seems to
occur more often with less informative debate?

>
>
>Cheers,
>Claudia (no .sig)


-- 
  Dick Wilmot  | I declaim that Amdahl might disclaim any of my claims.
                 (408) 746-6108
From: elambert@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Eber Lambert)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Ben & Jerry's ice cream
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:04:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: qualcom.elambert.702835496
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

As a ex-Vermonter who worked next door to the original revamped
gas station that was Ben &Jerrys (c. '79)... and a survivor of
Bens bizarre flavor human experimentation program (same year)...
I feel compelled to add to this thread...

1) B&J almost singlehandedly saved the central Vermont Dairy industry
and several hundred family farms. 

2) B&J transformed an old high school friend from delivery truck driver to 
distribution executive (most of their mid management is homegrown I believe).

3) At least the farms in my neck of the woods (Hinesburg), old dairy cattle
were sold off to be ground up for various non-meat related products or pet
food (for those non-vegan dogs and cats) or sometimes just left to hang out
in the pasture and die naturally (then dragged way out back to feed the wild
life). Little boy calves were sold to the beef/veal industry or occasionally
raised by the farmers for beef to feed their families (or sold to the neighbors) but on a small scale.

4) Still waiting for a non-fat BJ product.

el

Ps: Thanks to whoever it was that provided the line "I dont eat anything
that has a face." it seems to work well...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: ckw0@aber.ac.uk (Carl Keri Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: LEATHER
Date: 11 Apr 92 13:31:04 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

In article <1992Apr10.180928.13388@news.eng.convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L. Johnson) writes:
>
>Just curious:  Do you have meat-free supermarkets in the UK?
>

We do have greengrocers, which sell fruit and vegetables, and dairys, which
sell milk products and often fruit and vegetables too.  Nearly every town
has a whole-food shop which sells flour, pulses, honey, natural remedies,
frozen meat-alternatives, tofu, vegetarian pasties, etc, and these shops
very very rarely stock any meat products.  They usually also sell cruelty
free toiletries, so between them and the green grocers, or if you are lucky
an organic-growers cooperative, you very rarely need to go into a supermarket
which sells meat.

Hope this helps,

Esther

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                      | ckw0@uk.ac.aberystwyth               |
| "Per Ardua Ad Overdraft"             | ckw0@uk.ac.aber.cs                   |
|                                      |      tardis ?                        |