HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored20663
Date: 6 Nov 1992 21:49:48 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1deivsINNq87@agate.berkeley.edu>, shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
> Just as a hypothetical, suppose a talk.bizarre crowd (for instance) posted a
> RFD/CFV with a highly misleading subject, such as "CFV: comp.protocols.tcp-ip
> reorganization" to a bunch of newsgroups.  Also suppose that buried in an
> extremely long list of topics was a vote to make these newsgroups into
> subgroups of comp.protocols.tcp-ip.  Also suppose that most people ignored the
> c.p.tcp-ip reorg except for the people in talk.bizarre, who were in on the
> joke, and thus the vote passed.  By the arguments I'm seeing in news.groups,
> it seems like Usenet would then be forced to become a subgroup of c.p.tcp-ip,
> and nobody could do anything about it.  Is this true?

Provided that

1) An RFD was posted to news.announce.newgroups. Then there would have been
discussions for a month about the new organization of comp.protocols.tcp-ip
and the moderator of news.announce.newgroups would have made sure that it
was cross posted to comp.protocols.tcp-ip. 

2) A CFV was posted to news.announce.newgroups and cross-posted to all affected
news groups. Then at least one additional CFV /ack would have been posted to
the affected news groups. 

3) Then if 100 more yes votes than no votes and 2/3 of the votes were yes; the
re-org would take place.

As was been indicated, the CFV and RFD were posted to all of the affected
newsgroups and some people in rec.music.synth did participate in
the discussion phase and did influence that name. The vote was conducted 
according to the accepted guidelines and did pass. That is the breaks and
you need to learn to live with it. {For the record, I did vote no for this
part of the re-org but you don't see me yelling, the net is not life so let 
it go. It does help place some additional coherency into the namespace and
might simplfy some adiminstration for small sites.}



-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
From: sm880711@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Sajid Mahmood)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Islam and Ahmadiyya -- Enough ?
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:47:21 GMT
Reply-To: sm880711@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Sajid Mahmood)
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523



Mr. Joshua Randall writes:

" .....

It would seem to me that the discussion of a new group has evolved
into a religious debate.  I would respectfully suggest that it be
moved to one of the religious groups; it does not belong here.

 ....... "


I would like to remind you that, discussion about Ahmadiyya and
Islam took place many times in various newsgroups. Most noticeably
in soc.culture.pakistan and soc.culture.indian. But the audience
in general never really liked the debate. They wanted it to be
out of there, since it didn't really fit the atomosphere. Just as 
you are saying, here in news.groups. I would'nt like such things
to be discussed in soc.religion.islam either, since that will give
the readers a wrong picture about Islam. And, I don't like non-muslims
posing as Muslims and writing about Islam..

I suggest that this newsgroup should be created, so that Ahmadiyya
could be solely discussed separately. Beleive me Ahmadiyya is a big.
controversy in Islam!


Sajid Mahmood.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: Jesse.Taylor@launchpad.unc.edu (Jesse Taylor)
Subject: Re: Call for "Straw" Votes: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:20:00 GMT

Like, dude, isn't what you're proposing (ie: a place to post storyized
game "turn" reports) already existing on rec.games.frp.archives? Like, it
seems like r.g.frp.campaign would be a purposeless recapitulation, y'know?

But then 'gain, what the hell do I know... :)

JT

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:05:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.211659.2164@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <7767@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)  
>writes:
>
>> 1) You've completely removed the reason to post it to the affected group only:
>> to force folks to read the group.
>
>Too much information is a bad thing?

Yes, if it's not organized properly.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Keywords: music, makers, guitar, bass, drums, synth, tablature
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:35:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.000642.18481@vicorp.com> judy@vicorp.com (Judy Hawkins) writes:

>Are we losing input from lists such as SYNTH-L?  I don't understand how
>such lists work, does rec.music.synth just go out to the list, or do
>readers of the list appear on rec.music.synth; do such readers lose
>access, either reading or posting, by this name change?

No.

>My understanding at the moment is that the name change causes problems if
>gateway and list maintainers cannot, for whatever reason, honor the name
>change.  Is my understanding correct?

Yes.

>Is it an insurmountable task for some gateways/list maintainers to change the
>name?

No.

>Or if it is difficult for some, can somone else come to their aid?

Yes.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:56:46 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>Sure. Any way we can accomplish what the expressed wishes of the net are - in
>this case, renaming the group - is OK with me.

The expressed wishes of the net is not to rename the group.

>>It's not just me anymore. 
>...but it started out as just you...

So? Someone had to stand up to you folks.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

From your first day at school you are cut off from life to make theories
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 13:34:20 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov12.071347.5742@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>It should be a discussion on a vote to rename rec.music.makers.synth back to
>>rec.music.synth.
>But it's not. 

...and, so long as it's not, you'll get active opposition from nearly every
poster and admin with any experience in group creation. You can balance that
against your mailbox if you wish, but the rest of us can't depend on such
unverifiable contentions.

If you want to have any chance at building the consensus you so devoutly seek,
you'll recast it as I suggest. However, doing so would put a chink in your
armor as Protector of the net.weak.and.unknowing, and so I don't really expect
you to.

>>The vote passed, pure and simple.
>That is your opinion, not a consensus opinion. 

It is the consensus of everyone who expressed their opinion in the only way
that counts - by voting on the original proposal. It is, in fact the consensus
of everyone but your mailbox. Your mailbox doesn't count, as it can't be
verified.

>>By definition, the will of the net is free of any meaningful bias. The vote
>>that passed WAS the will of the net. Your refusal to recognize that fact is
>>the proximate cause of the current trouble.
>Sorry. This point is also under debate.

Only by you and your mailbox full of clueless newbies.

>>NO! You're revoting the original question, on which the net has already
>>spoken. 
>Damn Straight. And it hasn't spoken as fully as it might. 

It has spoken as fully as any other vote that has passed since the Guidelines
were last changed. Are you now going to agitate to overturn them all, too?

>>You should, in order to follow the Guidelines, ask if the group should
>>be renamed back. I will campaign as loud, and as hard, to have that vote
>>overturned on procedural grounds as you are against the current result - and,
>>I suspect, I'll get a better response.
>Great! 

I suspect I wasn't clear: If you proceed with your current proposal, I'll
fight to have that overturned on procedural grounds, thus forcing the rename
to go forward - and, I suspect, I'll get a better result than you are with
your current Lone Ranger stand.

>>There's no precedent requiring an unbiased vote taker, but if you choose to
>>get someone else to run the vote, I won't object.
>I'd better...to give you less fuel for the fire and me a chance to campaign.

As I said, I won't object. If you wish to campaign during the vote, then
selecting another votetaker is appropriate.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana)
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA Moderated
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 21:00:15 GMT

ecaxron@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham) writes:

[...deleted...]

>And leave soc.religion.christian out of it.  I oppose its current form
>of moderation as is.  Although I want to support this proposed group, I
>will oppose it if I see anything even roughly like the soc.religion.christian
>moderation scheme in it.

>RG

I am not sure about the form of moderation of soc.religion.christian. 
But this proposed newsgroup "soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya" will be
moderated only to prevent abusive language and filthy words. The
opponents of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community have traditionally been
using such vulgar language for Ahmadi Muslims.

Any Disagreement/dissent to beliefs will naturally be welcomed. All
kinds of religous healthy debates will take place in this newsgroup.


Sincerely,
(One of the proposed Moderators)

-- 
Nabeel A. Rana
rana@rintintin.colorado.edu
LOVE FOR ALL : HATRED FOR NONE.
________________________________________________________________
From: khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 12 Nov 92 02:00:40 GMT
Organization: Biology Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Call for votes.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored 
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:54:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.175405.13641@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> 
> 
> There is a distinction between those that show interest towards what
> is going with their group andb those that doesn't. It has nothing to 
> with class, it's simply a question of being interested or not.
> 
Interest isn't the only requirement. That's the problem.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: linneman@rulcvx.LeidenUniv.nl (Stefan Linnemann)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.dent
Organization: CRI, institute for telecommunication and computerservices.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 14:02:37 GMT

In article <BxIHpr.H4@uunet.uu.net> ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Alec Ellsworth) writes:
>		New Group Proposal
>	I propose that we begin discussion about a new 
>mainstream newsgroup named sci.dent. It will be unmoderated
>and has as its main objective to allow internet users (dentists,
>dental students, researchers, and patients) the opportunity
>to discuss Dentistry and any dental related issues. Included in 
>this forum would be the issues of dental research, patient/dentist
>interaction, new technology in dentistry, infection control
>discussion/answers, legislation issues in dentistry, question
>and answers, medico-legal issues, and any other related dentistry
>discussion.

I have no objections except to the name:

1. "dent" in itself is ambiguous: when a car has an accident, it very
likely will have a dent, but not the type you want to talk about.
(By the way: the dictionary I just used to get all the meanings for
"dent" only lists this meaning and it's verb form.)

2. Above you state you want the group to be about dentistry an related
problems.  That excludes discussions about "finger-printing"
elephant-tusks to prevent smuggling, which however seems an
appropriate topic for sci.dent.

3. There is already a sci.med.* hi\"erarchy.  Dentistry is a medical
topic.  It would fit in prettily.

Therefore I suggest you change the proposed name to sci.med.dentistry.

Good luck,
Stefan.
-- 
Stefan M. Linnemann		Internet: Stefan.Linnemann@CRI.LeidenUniv.NL
System Programmer UNIX		CRI, Leiden University, the Netherlands.
"Twenty push-ups a day and you'll never have to be afflicted with women again."
-- Daryl van Horne (sp?) [Jack Nicholson] in _the Witches of Eastwick_.
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 10 Nov 1992 22:26:35 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <n0e0at@ofa123.fidonet.org> Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org writes:
[stuff deleted]

>the impression most of us have of what you meant is correct, go ahead and
>post your CFD because I doubt there's much more to be said on the subject.
>Let's just see what the net as a whole thinks of the proposal. 

No, let's not.  The group as proposed is seriously flawed.  It should
not come to vote.  I firmly believe that cbnorman has an entire
contingent of FidoNet people who will vote yes, and carry the day.  Do
*not* put this up to vote; it is redundant.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:42:40 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>Dave, wake up.  "Basic" and "widely known" are _not_ synonyms.  There
>are lots of important things that the majority of people don't bother
>to learn, because they just don't care to go to the trouble.

Or maybe they don't know how...or maybe they don't even know that they
should...or that they'd want to if they knew. Give me a break...ALL ignorance
is not born out of awareness and then denial!
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Test  (n.)   - 1. A hardship you don't expect.
Brave (adj.) - 1. Someone looking for a test.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mckinzie@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Mark McKinzie)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 20:21:11 GMT

rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

>gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>>I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
>>these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  
>>lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
>>newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? At least it's a  
>>suggestion.

>>I can't imagine a valid reason for a "no" response to this suggestion.

> Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.makers.guitar, rec.music.makers.bass, rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature, rec.music.makers.percussion and renaming rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth.

 Subject: CFV: Making of rec.music.makers.guitar, rec.music.makers.bass, rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature, rec.music.makers.percussion and renaming rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth and removing alt.guitar, alt.guitar.tab, and alt.guitar.bass, with potential side effects in rec.music.misc.

Anyone feel left out?



-- 
Mark McKinzie          |    Listen, if they're going to buy lunch boxes,
mckinzie@math.wisc.edu | they might as well buy David Cassidy lunch boxes.
UW Dept. of Mathematics|
Madison, WI 53706      |                  -David Cassidy-
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
From: tlukka@lk-hp-5.hut.fi (Tuomas J. Lukka)
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date:  9 Nov 92 18:04:30 GMT

In <shephard.721298664@sfu.ca> shephard@fraser.sfu.ca (Gordon Shephard) writes:

>david@datamark.co.nz (David Rowland) writes:

>>In article <1992Nov7.030304.9126@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> PAPAI@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) writes:

>>>	SFU just doesn't have the same ring as AFU.  Hell,
>>To tell you the truth, SFU looks close to SNAFU (Situation Normal, All
>But at least my University would have a Newsgroup named after it 
>(Simon Fraser University)
And according to the SNAFU, after that it would be only
SITUATION f* up and not ALL f* up!

	TJL
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Islam and Ahmadiyya -- Enough
Date: 5 Nov 1992 04:20:24 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

[Dislaimer:  I neither know very much nor have anything against either
Islam or Ahmadiyya.]

It would seem to me that the discussion of a new group has evolved
into a religious debate.  I would respectfully suggest that it be
moved to one of the religious groups; it does not belong here.

Thank you.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: volunteers make the net work
Date: 13 Nov 1992 19:00:46 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov13.140320.16597@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
Keywords: respect support attempt learn help improve better volunteer
In-reply-to: huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu's message of Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:03:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.140320.16597@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) writes:
   In article <1992Nov12.155251.9687@metrosoft.com>
   gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
   |This would be a nice simple solution if all one had to know was in the  
   |"instructions" (which happen to be several documents in several places  
   |written by various people).

   Not quite.  All the documents that have been mentioned are posted
   periodically to news.announce.newusers by Gene Spafford.  All one needs
   to do is access that particular newsgroup.

   Several documents?  Yep.  Several places?  Nope.

Also, USENET exists because of volunteers.  Volunteers who care enough
to do something.  This includes, but is not limited to, running news
systems throughout the world (few sites pay admins to run news),
conducting votes, compiling and maintainging FAQLs and other
documents, maintaining archives.

Volunteers can get upset when their efforts are not appreciated or are
attacked (destructively).  An example is the way Dave H wants to
invalidate an objectively properly-conducted vote.  Or when volunteers
get blamed because less-involved people didn't know something that the
volunteers have attempted to make available.

However, there is always room for more volunteers and for constructive
criticism, including discussion for altering the various documents
available, such as the guidelines for group creation.  Attempting to
improve the net for the future is always welcome.  (But be aware that
people differ in their views of what is "better", although there is
usually some consensus if unanimity is impossible.)

And news.admin.policy seems to be the proper home for this type of
discussion.

USENET can always be better.  Help us.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.solid-state.electronics
Date: 13 Nov 1992 23:04:11 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu's message of 13 Nov 1992 16:45:19 GMT

In article <1e0m2vINNmgm@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:

   Good idea, bad name. The name should be sci.electronics.solid-state

Unless you've got something else besides electronics to go into the
sci.solid-state hierarchy.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:03:35 GMT
Reply-To: hades@Dartmouth.Edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Disclaimer: Personally, I really don't care who you think I speak for.
Moderator: Rec.Arts.Comics.Info

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:

>I believe that a newsgroup devoted to campaigns will not only contain
>those messages which already exist in other newsgroups that are related to
>the subject.  The Campaign newsgroup will foster new discussions, promote
>new interest in campaigning, and serve as the starting ground for many
>(I hope) fine net-based story-campaigns that will be enjoyable reading
>for all.

    Utter nonsense. Campaigns have been discussed in rec.games.frp and
in the rec.games.frp.* hierarchy for over 7 years. You have been reading
these groups for only 2 months. What makes you think you know something
about campaigning that those of us who have been here for the 7 years
don't? 

>You have your beliefs, and I have mine, but in the end it is the net
>that will decide.  I'm sure that either of us will accept the results
>from a formal CFV.

    Whether or not you accept it, or I accept it is irrelevant. If it is
not accepted as a valid group by the site administrators then the group
will never exist, because they won't create it at their sites.

--
-Hades (Brian V. Hughes) 
	"Hey, we're on the Cutting Edge!"
	"Too bad we're not on the side you keep." - Mr. Boffo
Newsgroups: news.groups