From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:07:16 GMT

In <1993Jan7.013620.5613@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm 
Lee) writes:


>In article <1993Jan6.200935.21283@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk 
(Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan5.223146.29327@ra.royalroads.ca> 
mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
>|> >
>|> > But we can have eternal life and the knowledge of good and evil.
>|> > Sure, when God placed the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the 
Garden,
>|> > HE knew that the people would partake of it and be condemned to death as 
well
>|> > as all the generations that followed them. GOD knew this!  
>|> 
>|> If I ran a simulation (the closest I can get to omniscience) of, say, a
>|> passenger aircraft design, and the simulated plane crashed, I would be
>|> tempted to think that going ahead with building and operating the plane
>|> was A Morally Dubious Business.
>|> 
>|> >    That is why He provided a plan for salvation through His one and only 
Son,
>|> > Jesus Christ.  We are living in the age of grace whereby we may be saved 
IF we
>|> > choose to follow Jesus.  There's nothing more to it than that.  
>|> 
>|> That's OK, my simulation indicates that a small proportion of the 
passengers
>|> will survive the crash. Just don't get in the front three quarters of the
>|> plane, because I *know* that everyone in there will throw a seven. How are
>|> my morals looking now that I've slightly reduced the number of passengers 
who
>|> I know will die at my hands?
>|> 
>|> Unless your purported God provides a plan for salvation which guarantees 
the
>|> salvation of *everybody*, then he has failed adequately to attone for *his*
>|> voluntary action (important point there, don't blame Eve for sitting up
>|> front in first class when offered the seat) in going ahead with the Garden
>|> ritual in the full knowledge that it would result in death.
>|> 
>|> If *one* of the passengers dies as a result of the crash which I knew was
>|> inevitable (which, dammit, I actually *planned*) then I'm as guilty as if
>|> they all died.
>|> 
>To use your analogy, God built the airplane and it flies fine.  The fact is, 
not
>everyone wants to ride in it.  In fact, most people choose to jump out and 
then
>curse God for not giving them a parachute.  God's plan of salvation through
>Jesus Christ is open to EVERYONE and that means that EVERYONE can be saved.  
Sad
>fact is, not everyone will be saved.  Why is that?  Because most people choose
>not to believe.  I respect that.  It is not for me to choose for someone else 
and
>I would not wish to impose my beliefs upon another.  I am delivering a 
message,
>that is all.  I'll answer questions or else refer you to someone who knows the
>answer.  I don't know it all.


>|> Sure, I'm not your God and his morality may not be the same as my morality.
>|> But if in the next breath you talk of `in the image of God' and of moral
>|> absolutes which supposedly derive from this, the moral high ground is
>|> shifting visibly beneath your feet.
>|> 
>|> > Maybe I'm being too simplistic.
>|> 
>|> No, I don't think you're being simplistic (for which read `rigorous') 
enough.
>|> As I've just written in a followup to another of your posts, you should
>|> *dissect* this garbage and get down there in the nuts and bolts and see 
exactly
>|> what it really *means* and what are its premises and logical consequences,
>|> rather than floating around on clouds of romantic language and foggy 
notions
>|> of love, free will, salvation, condemnation, grace, devotion and all the 
rest
>|> of it. Revive or acquire an ability to cut through the crap and get to the
>|> underlying logical structure of a claim or a set of claims. Trace the
>|> development, be merciless toward circularities and other logical fallacies,
>|> nail words down and don't let meanings shift during the development, reject
>|> appeals to mystery and faith as valid or in any way providing 
clarification.
>|> 
>|> If this stuff is correct, it should stay correct when utterly demystified,
>|> and if that isn't possible, you've been had and should toss it in the 
trash.
>|> 
>|> > I don't post too often but I am a firm believer and I just couldn't stand
>|> > by silent in admidst this debate. I don't mean to flame anyone.
>|> 
>|> Me neither, but sometimes it's difficult to attack views to which somebody
>|> is deeply attached without it coming out like a flame.
>|> 
>|> > After all, Jesus came into this world to save not to condemn. And in His
>|> > likeness, I would not do the same. I welcome your response.
>|> 
>|> Likewise.
>|> 
>|> Cheers
>|> 
>|> Simon


>You can't de-mystify God.  Even if you could, you wouldn't understand God 
because
>you would have to have the mind of God to understand Him.  I know this sounds 
like
>a lot of hokum but that's the way it is.  If we could prove the existence of 
God,
>where is the faith?  Nuts and bolts?  Logical consequences?
>   I can't prove to you that God exists.  I know that He exists by my 
experiences
>with Him.  He gives me the strength to do what I could never do on my own.  He
>picks me up when I fall down.  He has changed my life irrevocably and for the 
>better.  He has surrounded me with brothers and sisters I never knew I had.  
These
>things are real.  You can't quantify the Spirit of God or measure Him on a
>yardstick.  He is beyond human understanding, but He is real.  My life is 
proof
>of that.
>   Thank you for your post, Simon.

>God loves, Man kills.


Please read "The Great Debate: Does God Exist. A Debate Between J.P. Moreland 
and Kai Neilson." I believe it's by Thomas Nelson publishers.  It is mystical 
to say that I can't really know anything about my Christianity, I just have 
to feel it. 


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