From: jlong@calvin.rl.af.mil (Jeff Long)
Subject: Re: Anthony Rose; answering -----------> Gordon
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Rome Laboratory
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:31:13 GMT

In article <3fqn02B62eoD01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, agr00@ccc.amdahl.com
(Anthony G Rose) wrote:
(some stuff deleted)

> Personal experience is not what we are to go on.  The Word of God is the
> final authority, not personal experience.  Many people have sincere
> personal experineces that testify to different results.  They cannot all
> be from God.  The Bible instructs us to "test ALL things" (1 THESS 5:12),
> and to search the scriptures like the Bereans did (Acts 17:11).  And we
> are warned NOT to accept personal experience as an authoritative source.
> 
> ...... 
>
> I am not trying to change your personal experience.  I don't doubt that
> you have had a sincere experience. But Scriture tells us not to rely
> on ourselves and our experiences.  TEST THAT EXPERIENCE.
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm sorry, but I just cannot remain quite any longer on this thread!  I
have tested these things!  I have lived the Gospel of the COJCOLDS for 12
years now!
I am a convert to the church, having been a Methodist all my life, and my
wife is a convert after having been raised a very active Souther Baptist!  

I feel that the correct thing to test, as you suggest, is to live the
Gospel as you understand it, and to see if your life is not better than it
was before!  
I have received many blessings from Heavenly Father because of my
membership in the LDS Church, and for me, that is the test results that
count.  I simply refuse to "nit-pick" every little facet of every word that
was ever spoken by  mortal men who administer Christ's Church here in these
latter days!  The proof for me is the quality of life and the guidance that
is given me by the Holy Spirit as a result of my membership in the church.


> Your semantic game sounds pretty orthadoxed. However, lets look at what
> your words _really_ mean.  Your church doesn't teach that God becamse
> flesh and dwelt amoung us in the form of Jesus Christ.  Your church
> teaches that God formed a council of the Gods to concoct a plan to
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The council in heave was not held to "concoct a plan" but was held to allow
all of the spirit children of God an opportunity to decide for themselves
how they wished to progress,and who they wished to follow, Heavenly
Father's plan or Lucifer's.  You should explain that Lucifer's plan was to
not allow free agency, thereby forcing all of us to do good, and thereby
all return eventually to live with God, but God wanted us to make our own
choices in life!  He realized that opposition (yes, even YOUR opposition)
was necessary for us to make informed choices in this life.

> create the planet earth.  And that Jesus was the Son of God whos plan of
                                                              ^^^^
Again, the LDS position is that the plan that Jesus agreed to was not his
plan, it was his father's plan. 
 
> salvation won the vote, and Lucifers plan was defeated, thus he became the
> devil instead of the Saviour.  Your church teaches that God came to earth
> in a physical form alright, but not to teach his gospel and bear sins,
> but to have physical sexual intercourse with Mary to give us Jesus.
> Your church doesn't teach that Jesus is GOD ALMIGHTY, but just A God who
> progressed to become A God. These and many other aspects of LDS teachings
> qualify the LDS Jesus as the "other Jesus" Paul talked about in
> 2 Cor 11:4, and the "other gospel" that Paul talks about in Gal 1:6-9.
> 
> And if Jesus is GOD ALMIGHTY as he claimed to be, and as I am telling you
> that he is, he will be highly offended by these heretical doctrines!
> 
> >Tell me about being saved, I know that I can know that I can be sealed to 
> >eternal salvation, but I have not yet had this witness, what was it like 
> >for you. I am curious about your understanding of being Saved.
> >Thanks for the info.
> 
> 
>      "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
>       become children of God, even to those who BELIEVE in His
>       name".   John 1:12
> 
> If you receive the _real_ Jesus, the one who claimed to be the YHWH of
> the old testament (John 8:58, John 13:16), the one who claimed to be
> GOD ALMIGHTY, who created the heavens and the earth (Col 1:16),
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This IS the Jesus we worship!  He was the God of the Old Testament, he was
the creator of the Heavens!  

> according to John, he gives them the right to become children of God.
> EVEN TO THOSE WHO _BELIEVE_!!!!
> 
> *** Notice the Greek work translated here as "right", is: EXOUSIA.
>     A more accurate definition of this greek work would be: AUTHORITY.
> 
> He give the authority to those who BELIEVE!
> 
>      "..and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from AL sin."
>                                1 John 1:7
> 
>      "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to
>       forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrightousness"
>                                1 John 1:9
> 
> Notice the requsites are to receive Him and repent!  Do this and ALL of
> your unrighteousness will be forgiven.
> 
>      "And the witnes is this, that God has given us eternal life,
>       and this life is in His Son.  HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE,
>       HE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE SON OF GOD DOES NOT HAVE LIFE."
>                                   1 John 5:11-12
> 
> Pretty simple eh?  Too simple?  Notice the very next verse.
> 
>      "These things I have written to you who believe in the
>       name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW that
>       you have the life."   1 John 5:13
> 
> In Mormonism, eternal life is based upon obedience to the laws and
> ordiances of the church.  In the Bible, eternal life is based upon
> believing Jesus is who he said he was, and receiving Him as that!

As you must well know, but often negect to mention, we LDS believe that
immortality is a gift from the Saviour, given by his grace to all men! 
Jesus did indeed die that we might live!  But, to have eternal progression,
to continue to grow in understanding and wisdom, you must adhere to the
fullness of the Gospel.

Just what does eternal life mean for an EC?  What will that life be like? 
What will possible for us in the next life?  I nave never received an
answer to these questions from any "Christian" sect that would motivate me
to want to seek after it!  Mostly, it is not so much the beauty of this
eternal life that Christians seem to emphasis as a reason to follow them as
much as it is the possiblity of the undesireable alternative (Hell) that is
the prime motivation.  Will modern Christians speed eternity praising God
and shouting Hosanas?  What will they be capable of?

> 
> Mormonism does neither.  John tells us that these verses are written so
> that if you BELIEVE, then you can KNOW you have eternal life!  Do you
> KNOW you have eternal life, or are you still working the Godhook ladder?

Yes I KNOW that because I believe in Jesus, I will have , AS A MINIMUM,
eternal life.  I am simply trying to work toward the goal of making that
eternity something I want it to be, rather than having it be an eternity of
"if only I had done this."

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Capt Jeff Long
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jlong@calvin.rl.af.mil
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