From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Replacement for Picard
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:24:06 GMT
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <ewright.726526156@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>In <rawdon.726434283@cs.wisc.edu> rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon) writes:
>>>Okay, I won't quibble over words.  The Admiral intended it to be 
>>>permanent at the time, but it turned out not to be because he
>>>hadn't read the end of the script.

>>>Satisfied? :-) 

>>No. :-)  I think that the position was intended to be temporary from the word
>>go - to be terminated when a more qualified captain could be brought to the
>>ship. 

>I see.  In other words, you think the Admiral mean to say something
>quite different from what the screenwriter made him say.

No, I think that the admiral meant to say exactly what he did say, which fits
perfectly with my assertions.

>>(Of course, if it had turned out to be impossible to do that, then no
>>doubt the assignment would have been permanent - for about two months. :-)

>The events in BoBW took two months?  Do you have any evidence for
>that?  It appeared to me that the entire episode, like most TNG
>episodes, took over a few days.  Or do you assume the script was
>wrong about that, too?

You miss my point.  If it had been impossible to EVER have gotten a more
qualified captain out to the Enterprise, it seems likely that that would have
meant that the Borg had not been defeated, and probably the position of
command of the Enterprise would not have lasted very long (as the ship
probably would have been destroyed fairly soon).

However, this is clearly not what happened.

>>>Do you believe that, if Riker defeated the Borg, Star Fleet would 
>>>doubt his ability to handle lesser threats.  

>>Sure, there's plenty of room for doubt.  For one thing, not all missions
>>involve combat. 

>Oh, I see.

>"Sure he can defeat the Borg, but how well would he handle Luxanna
>Troi?  Better not chance it." ;-)

Yeah, but can he handle complicated diplomatic missions, or fleet maneuvers
(in which the Enterprise would be the commanding vessel)?  Or any number of
other things.

>>Funny, though, that Riker is (by your assessment, it seems) such a qualified
>>officer, and there was this shortage of captains after the Wolf battle
>>(depending on how you define "a lot"), and yet Riker was never offered the
>>captaincy of any of the vessels built in the following year (according to
>>Shelby's estimates).  Maybe Starfleet isn't too enamored of Riker after
>>all...?

>Now I'm sure you watched a different episode (if not a differerent
>series) than I did.

>Shelby said that Riker would be offered his choice of any command
>in the fleet.  That fleet includes other Galaxy-class starships.
>Wonder why Riker would be considered qualified to command one of
>them? 

Strange, though, that Riker still seems to be on the Enterprise.  I wonder
what Starfleet thought of THAT?  He's offered his choice of ANY ship the fleet
fleet and he turns down ALL of them?  Wow.  And he's been offered three
commands BESIDES that offer.  Maybe he's just not fit for a regular command,
huh?

>>>>Because it was thought necessary that the commander of the Federation
>>>>flagship at that time should be a Captain, since it seemed likely that the
>>>>Enterprise would have to interact with other ships.

>>Really?  EVERY SHIP IN STARFLEET is under command of an admiral?  I don't
>>think so.  I'm not saying that Riker would just be interacting with those
>>ships at Wolf 359.  If the Borg had taken Earth and the Enterprise survived,
>>he probably would have had to dealt with other ships in the fleet.

>Who would have refused to accept the help of a ship commanded by
>an officer with rank less than Captain????!!!!

>Come on, now!

Come on, yourself!  If Riker had some strategy in mind, and some other captain
had some OTHER strategy in mind, the other captain could have simply overruled
Riker (if Riker were a commander) without even LISTENING to his idea.  Not so
easy, if Riker is a captain.

>Besides, if Star Fleet is like the US Navy, there are probably
>more ships commanded by Commanders than by Captains.

Funny that we've barely seen any of them.  (I can't actually think of even
one, offhand.  I can think of a ship which was commnded by a Commodore,
though.)

>>Interacting with other captains is made easier if you is yourself a captain,
>>rather than a commander who happens to be in command of a ship.  Since 
>>you are of equal rank, they HAVE to listen to you, whereas if you aren't, 
>>they can simply overrule you without listening.  Chain of command, you know.

>I know.  You don't.  The captain of a ship, whatever his rank, has
>sole command and responsibility for his ship.  He cannot be overrule
>or be overruled by another ship's captain, of whatever rank.  The
>chain of command does not go from one ship to another, it goes from
>the ship up to the battle-group or fleet commander, a Commodore or
>Admiral. 

Perhaps.  It could depend on the circumstances (which one might expect to
change rapidly and for the worse in a situation involving the Borg).  For
instance, what happens when the fleet commander is killed?

>>>Oh, but they haven't.  At least, not entirely.  Recall Riker's 
>>>reaction when he heard the Enterprise was being given to Captain 
>>>Jellico.  He fully expected to take command.

>>Though he seems to have been unjustified in his expectations.  Again, 
>>it seems Starfleet doesn't have that stellar an opinion of him after all, 
>>since he's refused three commands now...

Whoops... as you point out, it appears that he's refused FOUR commands,
including one offer of "any ship in the fleet"...

>No, it seems that Shelby was right: "If you wait to long, it could
>look like you're standing still."

My point!

>				    Or maybe the Admiral really did
>just want a captain who had experience with the Cardassians.

On a permanent basis?

-- 
Michael Rawdon				  rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department,  Madison, WI

"Childbirth is NOT a miracle.  Life is NOT sacred.  When you have twenty
 thousand nomads huddled between two rivers in the Middle East and that's it
 for Homo sapiens, when one in five children is a live birth, one in ten
 living past the age of ten, THEN childbirth IS a miracle and life IS sacred.
 When the average age of a grandmother in Philadelphia's housing projects is
 twenty-five, to call childbirth a miracle is at least a tasteless joke and at
 worst a true obscenity."
				- Dave Sim, from Cerebus #142
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current