From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,ca.environment
Subject: Re: "Ecofascists" In Action
Keywords: Pollution, Volunteerism, Environment
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:19:43 GMT
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

Written in article <8239.3866@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>
 by bruce@godzilla.swdc.stratus.com (Bruce Overby):

: In article <z!bnlta.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
:> In article <p028tt0@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
:>> In article <h2=nrt-.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil
:>> Ronzone) writes:

:>>> So, 1. Put the property in private ownership. 2. Sue anybody
:>>> that fucks with your property. This requires a system of
:>>> justice of course where the "sue-ee" does not coercively own
:>>> the court system.

:>> I see one major problem with this.... If you put the property
:>> in private ownership, that owner will fuck up the bay without
:>> anyone taking them to task.

:>> Can you think of a single group which could afford to buy the
:>> bay who would be concerned with the wildlife around the bay,
:>> the quality of the water in the bay, other people polluting
:>> the bay?

:> I think you are missing the major point. The problem is the lack of
:> ownership of ALL land -- the so-called "public" land is really
:> (effectively) unowned. There is nobody to take a proprietary interest,
:> and nobody to be held responsible for problemns with it.

: To respond to this point, let's return to the original post
: on BayKeeper:

:>- A BayKeeper patrol spotted a San Francisco shipyard
:> discharging toxic paint and sandblasting wastes into the bay.
:> Water samples taken by volunteers indicated heavy-metals
:> levels hazardous to fish. The San Francisco Bay Regional
:> Water Quality Control Board forced the yard to spend several
:> hundred thousand dollars to eliminate its pollution.

: The "public" land (in this case, the bay) *is* owned--by the
: public. There *is* somebody taking a proprietary interest--the
: volunteers of BayKeeper. And there *is* somebody held
: responsible for the problems with it--the San Francisco Bay
: Regional Water Quality Control Board, and, ultimately, the
: polluters. You've got to admit, Phil, that at least in this
: specific circumstance, *the system worked*.

Query:

What would be your opinion then, if the KKK performed a similar
"watchdog" operation to investigate "reverse discrimination" against
the public?  I'm sure they'd staff with volunteers.

My point being that, how are we to know that in this instance, the
"watchdogs" were "right?"  At least under a private property model, 99.9%
of the population agree as to what's right and wrong (even tho they may
not always act that way).

We can always find one or two examples where "the system" happens to
"work," even despite itself, no matter what "the system" happens to be.
this question leads to the next question ...  can it work *_in_general?_* 
How much work are the volunteers of BayKeeper willing or able to do?

BTW, I asked on the original post what "proper disposal" meant, and I
don't know if I got an answer.

Just questions.

: Bruce Overby

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
Unquestionably, there is progress.  The average American now pays out
twice as much in taxes as he formerly got in wages.