HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: bernard stone
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 04:11:52 GMT


	I am only replying because of the "reasonable" tone of Wanye's
article.

In article <1993Jan7.1777.22217@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

# To: David Makowsky
 
#  DM> Bernard Stone is perhaps the leading authority in ther world
#  DM> when it comes to international law and the Middle East.
#  DM> Among his writngs in the area is "Israel and Plaestine:
#  DM> Assault on the laws of Nations".
 
# This is quite odd: I did thorough searches in Hollis (Harvard)
# and Melvyl (UCal), and came up with no books on law by Bernard
# Stone. All that appeared were a few books on mice (children's
# books?).
 
# I called the Harvard Law School library for background info on
# Bernard Stone, the eminent international lawyer. They turned up
# nothing. Same results from inquiries to a number of other local
# libraries.
 
# So what gives?
 
	I may be wrong about his first name, but his last name is Stone.
I have read several things by him, but the only one I remember by name
is called "Israel and Palestine:  Assault on the laws of Nations".  I
do not remember the year, and I am not sure about the publisher but I
think the publisher was the John Hopkins University Press.

#  DM> As to a specific document, this is not written by Stone, but
#  DM> the Official Interpretations (This is the name of the
#  DM> publication given by the international legal body
#  DM> responsible for interpreting the convention.  It is not a
#  DM> name I made up) explictly mentions this.

# What is the full cite for this "Official Interpretation"? Where

	[ line accidently deleted - dlm ]

	If I were you I would check with the UN, or whatever body is
responsible for interpreting the Geneva Convention (the World Court?).
I have only seen references to it twice.  One by William Safire in the
article I posted here a while back (which I no longer have), and once
at a seminar on International law. However, that is the exact title
from what I understand.

	The Official Interpretation is just what its name implies.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY)
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 07:50:04 GMT

Ron Evans (revans@euclid.ucsd.edu) wrote:
: 
:  <1483500319@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
: 
: >My attempt at definiton is the following:
: 
: >TERRORISM constitutes the infliction of physical harm to
: >civilians for political purposes.
: 
: >Do you agree, folks ?
: >Submitted by Elias Davidsson
: 
: 	Nope.
: 	If someone plants a bomb which later explodes in a 
:         military transport plane flying to Somalia, 
: 	I would consider that TERRORISM, even if none of the
: 	dead were civilians.
: 
: 
: 
: -- 
: Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu

	Now that would depend on the circumstances.  For example action
of the kind mentioned by Ron carried out in a country at war would
certainly not be regarded as terrorism.  I would attempt at a better
definition:

	TERRORISM is the use of random violence against non-combatants
or soldiers in peace time.  The action leading to death or injury is
carried out inspite of peaceful options by groups of extremists seeking
to subvert the political establishment.

	I would not for example regard PLO actions against Israeli
soldiers  as terrorism for the
simple reason that the Palestinians have no peaceful options to opose
Isreal. The same is not true for the IRA. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: u554835@csi.uottawa.ca (Fadi Kachi - President.)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 19:50:08 GMT

In article <cubsfan.726341874@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu  
(Michael Silverman) writes:
> Well, if Jews are a race, then how would you explain someone
> who converted to Judaiism?  After he/she converts, this
> person would be observant, support Israel, keep kosher, etc, etc.
> 
> Could I "convert" to African-American? What about Chinese?
> 
> --
> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu
> 
> "One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Hello There.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:23:37 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1ihgn3INN1p1@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>Very, especially when you consider that the majority of semites
>do not constitute the majority of english speakers.  

First, you have to prove that the majority of english speakers believe
that anti-Semite actually means anti-Jew.  I remember when I was
watching TV with a professional linguist.  This lady is Norwegian,
although her husband is Jewish, and she has had very little exposure
to the Arab culture.

A Jewish person on TV labelled an Arab an anti-Semite.  In response to
this, she turned to me and said, "How can they be anti-Semites?  They
are Semites themselves!"  She, too considers anti-Semite to mean
"people against Semites" and not just people against Jews.

This, from a professional linguist.  Take your pick.

>Hmm, I wonder
>what would happen of the majority of English speakers decided
>that the word "shukrun" meant "run to the shuk".  I mean it stands
>to reason by your analogy that they are right since after all, they
>constitute the majority of English speakers using Arabic.

Basalat Ali Raja


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Distribution: talk
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:49:37 CST


In article <1993Jan6.1777.22122@channel1>, wayne.mcguire@channel1.com (wayne mcguire) writes:
> To: Josh Backon
> 
>  JB> Leibowitz (whose biography was written up 2 weeks ago in
>  JB> Jerusalem's KOL HA'IR weekly magazine on the occasion of his
>  JB> 90th birthday) is a religious fanatic who believes in
>  JB> replacing Israeli secular law with Jewish law (HALACHA).
>  JB> Quite convenient that you didn't mention this which only
>  JB> goes to show how LITTLE you really know on the Israeli
>  JB> situation.
> 
> That is an egregiously false statement, Josh. I just finished
> reading Leibowitz's book in its entirety, and the truth is
> entirely the opposite: he believes in the strict separation of
> religion and state. Leibowitz believes that the bleeding together
> of Judaism and secular Zionism is corrupting both of them.


	Correct. Where did Leibowitz say that he is in favor of
	replacing the ISraeli law with the Halacha? I'll be 
	very surprised if this is the case.

> 
> Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State is a profound work,
> Josh. I know greatness when I see it, and Leibowitz has all the
> hallmarks. This book is going to create waves that will
> reverberate for many decades, and quite possibly longer.

	I doubt it. The book you've read is based on several
	other books published by Leibowitz in Hebrew and have
	been out for quite sometime. Most of the people to whom
	these matters relate have already read them and the 
	fact that you've just discovered Leibowitz suggests
	that the waves were quite modest.


> 
> You don't realize by what a thin thread Israel is hanging in the
> Western world. Writers like Leibowitz, Harkabi and Neusner are
> among a small group of Israelis and Diaspora Zionists whom
> opinion elites in the West listen to with any respect. And yet
  ==========================


	I bet Bush or Clinton never heard about that Leibowitz,
	but perhaps when you refer to "opinion elites in the West"
	you think of Wayne Mcguire.




Noam

> you and many other Israelis insult their sanity, intelligence and
> character without taking the trouble to address any of the
> substantive ideas in their works.
> 
> No wonder Israel is increasingly going down the tubes....
> 
> The day you lose your Leibowitz's, Harkabi's and Neusner's is the
> day that Israel is going to be finished.
> ---
>  ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ state of the art cryptographic technology
> --
> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:58:20 GMT
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
 <4614@bimacs.BITNET><bob1.726170125@cos> <Jan.5.19.15.02.1993.4354@bach.rutgers.edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <Jan.5.19.15.02.1993.4354@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

   (about the israeli policeman executed by Hamas ) ...

   # According to the news reports I heard, this policeman was kidnapped
   # just outside of his home, so I presume he was off-duty, i.e., a
				  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   # civilian at the time. Or does joining the police force immediately
   # remove all of one's civil rights?

   I remember that Israel procecuted an alledged Nazi criminal though he
   was "off-duty" ... Are you saying that Israel should have forgoten about
   all the attrocities that he had done just because he was "off-duty" at
   the time of the arrest (kidnap).

I don't remember HAMAS releasing the transcript to the court
proceedings during which they found Toledano guilty of war crimes.

(Note: This post is NOT a justification for Israel not trying the
deportees.)


--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:00:45 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

~In article <1ik4esINN4jt@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
~> In article <29974@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~> |> 
~> |> You're forgetting, Makowsky knows *everything*. There are lots more where he
~> |> comes from, that's why they don't need to bother with trials in Israel.
~> 
~> Sorry to tell you but Makowsky lives in the United States.  As a pro-
~> kahanist his views are considered to be no more than fringe views by
~> the majority of the Israeli population.  Therefore, your statement
~> in regard to Israel is needlessly inflammatory.

I understand that some simple natural language programs have trouble with 
figures of speech, but most intelligent human beings can recognize a figure
of speech when they see one, and would recognize that "where" in this context
does not refer to a specific geographical location.

But to respond to your substantive (I use the word loosely) point, you claim
that Makowsky's kahanist views are considered a minority, but I note that the
deportation was supported by ALL parties in the Knesset, and by 91% of the
Israeli public. In the "spectrum" of views held in the Knesset apparently
NO-ONE considers the Geneva Convention worthy of observing. Some spectrum!
I also note that, in the matter of the shooting of the 10-year old girl by
Israeli soldiers, a great many people on this forum have leapt to justify
the soldier's action, and NO-ONE has expressed regret at the child'd death.

You claim that Makowsky represents a minority, but in fact he appears to
represent a substantial majority of Israelis and their apologists who wish
to impose a cruel despotism on the land they occupy using any methods at their
disposal, no matter how despicable.





-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 5 Jan 93 10:56:30 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <237@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
~In article bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
~A Jew killing a Jew, who cares? An Arab killing an Arab, who cares?
~But a Jew killing an Arab, g-d forbid. I never understood this logic, usually
~used in the UN or the media.
~

In fact the killing of Jews by Arabs gets a lot of media coverage, whereas
the killing of Arabs by Jews gets rather little - maybe because it has
become such a commonplace occurrence.





-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: israel's credibility
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: talk
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:13:33 GMT

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>  writes:
# 
# What is it in Israeli culture that seems to make it so addicted
# to theocracy on the one hand, or Marxism or pseudo-Marxism on the
# other? 

Can you please explain what you are talking about? As someone who
knows much more about Israel than you do, I really don't have a
clue.

-Danny Keren.
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:03:29 GMT

In article <30068@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy  
Henderson) writes:
> In article <1993Jan11.201156.25289@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny  
Keren) writes:
> ~jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> ~
> ~#But to respond to your substantive (I use the word loosely) point, you  
claim
> ~#that Makowsky's kahanist views are considered a minority, but I note  
that the
> ~#deportation was supported by ALL parties in the Knesset, and by 91% of  
the
> ~#Israeli public. In the "spectrum" of views held in the Knesset  
apparently
> ~#NO-ONE considers the Geneva Convention worthy of observing. Some  
spectrum!
> ~
> ~1) Supporting the deportation does not imply equivalence with Khana
> ~   like opinions. When he ran to the Knesset, he had 1 out of 120
> ~   seats.
> 
> How is one supposed to tell the difference between, say, Makowsky, who
> supports the deportation, and you, who support the deportation. You may
> give different labels to your views, but the end result is the same for
> the deportees. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . .
Jeremy, jeremy, what's gonna be with you? Your mother and I had such high  
hopes for you.... but I digress.......
Agreement on ONE policy does not agreement on ALL policies make. For  
instance, I agree with the Bush administration that sending troops to help  
straighten out Somalia is a good (if far overdue) idea. This does not  
imply that I favor any of the other policies of the Bush administration.
Similarly, the near unanimous consensus amongst Israelis (namely, that  
fundie wackos like Hamasniks are dangerous and ought to be removed) does  
not translate into support for the equally wacked positions of the Kach  
party. 
Say, where were you when the Israelis had their last election, and picked  
a guy (Rabin) whose announced intention was to strike a deal with the  
Palestinians (as opposed to his predecessor, a fact you had indeed harped  
on for a while)?

> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
> 


j skorecki-weiss


"Dallas won, the Redskins lost, and I got a 3.4 last semester. All in all,  
things are looking up."
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (JLE)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Date: 12 Jan 1993 04:05:46 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan12.002110.15059@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <4906@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>Really Anisa, John isn't gone yet, you don't have to work so hard to
>replace him as the loudest and basest of demagouges.  You know
>perfectly well that the above is a blatant misrepresentation of facts.

Good fight Anisa.  Don't be discourage of speaking the truth.
And yes Adam, John isn't gone yet either.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Are Lebanese considered ARABS (J. LAWEN a PALESTINIAN)
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:35:44 GMT

In article <43320@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
> <1993Jan11.065124.26726@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes):
>
>>As a westerner, listening to this back and forth between ARAB brothers
>>only makes me think 'Boy, those French colonists sure did an outstanding
>>job dividing a nation amongst itself'.  I know some Christian Lebanese
>>who prefer to call themselves "Phoenicians", rather than Arabs and this
>>makes me, a non-Arab, sick at heart to see the residual effects of
>>Western colonialsim still alive and well today.  
>
>	Is it also sickening to hear Lebanese speaking French?

Why should they speak French when they have a language of its own:  ARABIC.
Lots of Algerians speak French (including my father-in-law), but he doesn't
go around telling everyone he is not Arab.

>
>>Fact is, the Lebanese,
>>regardless of religion, are Arabs and therefore have a rich history,
>>language and culture which is inspiring.  So what the hell is your
>>problem, Br. LAWEN????
>
>	This is a bit like saying the Canadians are European.
>	There are sizable non-Arab ethnic groups in Lebanon,
>	including Kurds and Armenians, that make up perhaps
>	7% of the population.

Quatsch and more Quatsch, and you know it.  ARABS make up 93% of Lebanon's
population, so don't give me this.  Sizable however they may be, 93% makes
Lebanon a more homogenous country than Iraq (75% Arab).  Canadians are
Europeans who settled in Canada, Lebanese Arabs are in their traditional
homeland.  BTW, I know one of those who you would call a Kurd (her name
is definately non-Arabic in origin), but she will be the first to tell
you she is an Arab.  

Sandra.


>Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24784 talk.politics.soviet:10250 soc.history:10565
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Palestinian Deportees
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:35:04 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Israel refused
>entry to the man suffering from liver disease whom the Red Cross had
>tried to bring out along with a 16 year old boy that Israel claims it
>deported by mistake. Furthermore, it appears that Israel will not allow
>the other 9 Palestinians deported "by mistake" to return through Israeli
>lines.

Lebanon is reportedly furious with the UN for evacuating two of the
deportees and bringing them back to the territories, and is now
unwilling to allow further UN visits to the terrorists for fear that
the UN will bring back the other nine who were erroneously deported,
or, G-d forbid, bring them some food and supplies.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 08:13:11 GMT

In article <1i8phiINNa4k@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>I was reading the San Francisco Chronicle, when I saw this article.
>Jan 1 1993
>
>The story was about Egypts recent raids arresting el Islamiya members,
>so far they have arrested over 700.
>
>My question is:  Why is this on page 15?
>                 Why isn't CNN covering this?

Maybe you should watch more CNN. They already reported it.
>
>Israel deports 415, it's on page 1 of every paper in the country, and the 
>lead TV story.
>
>Why doesn't Egypt punishing terrorists rate the same newsworthyness of 
>Israel punishing terrorists?

Beacuse FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, the deportation are against international law.
A state is free to arrest anybody, not only terrorists, it can CHARGE them, and
TRY them, and IF found guilt PUNISH them? Arresting somebody is not a
punishment, deporting them IS. Collective punishment, imposed randomly, without
charge or trial is a violation of human rights.
Of course, non of this matters to you, all Israeli-apologists try to deflect
the issue of how bad they are(considering the bragging about being a democracy)
by pointing out how bad other people are. It is like being arrested for murder
and ranting about how Manson, Bundy, and Dahmer are much worse than you are,
you only killed a couple of people, therefore you should be patted on the back
and told to go home.

>
>Can You say "hypocrisy" boys and girls?

I.S.R.A.E.L.I. A.P.O.L.O.G.I.S.T.S. , is that close?

>-- 
>---  !      ^    !\  !
> !   !     /-\   ! \ !
>___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
>                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:14:40 CST

In article <1984@spam.ua.oz>, jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
> In article <1992Dec27.233559.25590@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
> 
>>There is enough land there for everyone.  The early Zionists
>>anticipated living together in peace with the few Arabs who were
>>already there;
> 
> Which early Zionists might these be? Herzl never recognised or perhaps
> even knew about the Arabs in Palestine so he's out. The only people I


	Not quite. Herzl was probably quite late in recognizing
	the fact that Arabs live in Palestine, and even then was
	not fully aware of what Zionism might mean for them. But 
	he did recognize it nonetheless. For examle, in Altneuland
	Herzl put the following exchange of words between a Jewish
	and an Arab characters:

	[Jew]: "We Jews brought civilization to the country 
		[Palestine]."

	[Arab]: "Your pardon if I contradict you, my friend, but 
		there were oranges before your time. Even my own 
		father had large orange groves."

> know who addressed the issue referred to displacing the Arabs through
> various forms of purchase. No peaceful coexistence there. Ben Gurion
> spelt it out by saying that a 40% Arab minority was unacceptable and
> would threaten the very basis of the Jewish State. 

	I think you are patently wrong here. If I had the time
	(or the right incentive :-)) I would bring you three
	Ben Gurion declarations of peacful coexistance on any
	one you bring to the contrary.  I think that BG's view
	of the Arab-Jewish relations is complex, evolved over 
	time, and certainly cannot be dismissed as rejecting 
	peacful coexistence.

	Shabtai Tevet cites from BG's memoirs: "Palestine is
	not an empty country... on no account must we injure
	the rights of its inhabitants." (Ben Gurion and the 
	Palestinian Arabs, p.37)

In short I think
> you are wrong, if you know of an early Zionist who really expected
> peaceful coexistence then I would like to know his/her name!

	I'm sure, Joseph, that when you find the time to look for
	them you'll be able to find many such Zionists.  But let 
	me make clear once again that the attitudes of early 
	Zionists towards Arabs (and probably of Arabs leaders
	towards early Zionism) are not as simple as a peaceful /
	no-peaceful coexistence.


 
> Joseph Askew

Noam

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24700 talk.politics.soviet:10228 soc.culture.greek:12052 soc.history:10543 soc.culture.turkish:13803