HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fischer@bimacs.BITNET (Yitzy Fischer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Drying out the settlements
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:23:25 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <22141@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <92219.103506HANK@BARILVM.BITNET> HANK@BARILVM.BITNET (Hank Nussbacher) writes:
>>
>>       Drying out the settlements
>>       --------------------------
>>
>>     Many of you may  be unaware of the  extent to which the  current
>> Israeli  government  is  going  out  of  its  way  to  "dry out" the
>> settlements in Yehuda, Shomron and Gaza.  Living here, I see it  and
>> live it daily, so I will try to provide a quick snapshot of what  is
>> going on out here in the "territories".
>
>Hank -- you continue posting things like this and I'll have to retract
>every bad word I've ever said about Rabin...
>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21

The day Yigal retracts anything bad that he has said about any Jew in
Israel is probably going to be the day that the messiah comes (whether
for the first time or the second :-) )

Yitzy
--

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| Internet:  fischer@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il                         .--/--\--. |
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| Bitnet:    fischer@bimacs                                      `--\--/--' |
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Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18448 misc.headlines:5542
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:00:53 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia

Mokhtar writes:
Second,
I was watching Prime Time Live last night, and they stated very clearly
that there are buildings in Sarajevo that is controlled by Serb snippers,


I say:
First,
Serbs constituted a large percentage of Sarajevo's population (estimates
are between 35% and 45%).  The war will end and it seems very likely that
the Bosnians will win Sarajevo (with outside support).  What percentage of
Sarajevo do you think will still be Serbs ?

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:14:04 GMT

>>Well, I realize that, but what about the Arabs inside Israel, they don't
>>have the right to adopt or bring-in orphans? Don't they hold Israeli
>>passports. What about the non-Israeli's in Gazz and the WB? They don't
>>have the right too? 
>
>No, they don't have the right to bring in immigrants without the
>government's okay, either by adopting them or by any other means. Nor
>do the Jewish citizens. Nobody has a right to immigrate to any country,
>with or without the sponsorship of residents of that country, without
>government approval; regulating immigration is a standard government
>function. In this case, the government has said okay, which makes it
>fine. In some cases, the Law of Return being the most obvious, the
>government issues a blanket okay to a fairly wide range of people. The
>right to decide, however, belongs to the state as it does to every other
>state in the world, and not to any individual, whether Arab or Jew.
>

I wish you apply what yor are saying above to the immigration of Jews 
in 1948 from Europe. They not only immigrated, they also took our land.


>I wasn't claiming democracy... although you're wrong; anyone who
>thinks democracy means fairness hasn't studied history. Democracy
>is majority rule; it is as good and fair as the majority is, or as
>bad. What the majority decides to do has no effect whatsoever on
>whether a country is dempcratic, although it does on whether the
>country is good -- the two have littlw to do with each other. But
>my point was not that Israel was democratic in the first place; it
>was that the Arab countries are being consistently less decent to
>other Arabs and Muslims than Israel is to a variety of Arabs and
>Muslims.
>

Why then in 1948 when the Arab majority opposed the establishment
of the Jewish state did not rule?



-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Kissinger, Ajami, and Rather display Anti-Arab Bigotry at Israeli Benefit
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:40:24 GMT
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) says:

>In article <1992Aug19.031905.7744@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) says:
>>
>>>
>>>I want to be careful that I am not perceived as perpetuating this notion that
>>>"Jews control the media", however, it is clear that there is a certain amount
>>>of difficulty in presenting reports critical of Israel without being branded an
>>>"antisemite" or "self-hating Jew"; certainly more difficulty than even in 
>>>Israel!
>>>
>>Methinks thou dost pretend too much.
>
>Pot...kettle...black...etc.

You said it, not me!
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:08:15 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| Just remind us again where and when Krystallnacht took place. How perceptive
| do you have to be to figure out in 1941 that the  Nazis were Baddies? How
| much of a hypocrite do you have to be to defend LEHI?
| 
| --
| -Jeremy Henderson            |  Anisotropic
| 

   Just remind us again who was sitting idly allowing Palestinian Arabs
  murder Yeshiva students in Hebron.  How much of a hypocrite do you have to
  be to defend the British?  How many refugees from Yugoslavia are the
  British taking in?  If the world closes off any escape route for these
  victims what will happen to them?  Answer: the same thing that happened
  to the Jews closed in WWII.  You are all to willing to accuse LEHI without
  even beginning to accept responsibility for the greater wrongs committed by
  the British.

       Richard Thorne
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 16:14:05 GMT

>>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
>>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.
>
>If they hadn't decided, of their own free will, against the pleading of
>Jewish leaders, to leave, then you might.  But don't blame the Israelis.
>
>At the time that virtually the entire Arab population of Haifa left, the
>British police (no friends of the Jews!) reported that "every effort is
>being made by the Jews to pursuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on
>with their normal lives, ... and to be assured that their lives and
>interests will be safe."  The Haganah even ordered that no Arab's
>possessions be touched, and warned that anyone who violated that order
>would be severely punished.
>

Are you kidding me? The Jewish leaders and the Hagganah pleaded the 
Arabs not to flee? Do you think I was born here? You publish the 
above in a propaganda book and sell it to the Americans they may
believe it.

>Your parents apparently voluntarily left Haifa, and have no more right to
>return their than my grandparents had to return to the Russia they fled for
>their lives.

NO Mr. my parnets did not leave Haifa voluntarily. They escaped like the
Bosnian are escaping the war in Yugoslavia and they have the right to 
return to Haifa as you have the right to go to Israel.


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18612 talk.politics.soviet:6993 soc.history:7349
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.history
Subject: 'POL*' PROVIDES PROOF
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


 Contrary to Mr Mutlu's ravings, I can back every single statement I
have made on this board. Just challenge me on something specific, none
of the vague statements that you so favor, Mr Mutlu.

Michael
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: A Frame Of 'Palikarya' Mind: Greek Anti-Semitism.
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 15:38:31 GMT


"History must note the heroic actions of Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria,
whose people put the principle of human dignity above safety and
expediency. Nazi reprisals in Yugoslavia were especially vindictive.
They slaughtered 1,380,000 people - 10 percent of Yugoslavia's population.
The Greeks, never anti-Semites, put up a fierce resistance, and the
Germans declared the death penalty for anyone harboring Jews".

"Jews, God, and History" - Max I. Dimont, p. 387.


-Danny Keren, aka "Dan Kerenian", aka "Danic Kerenovic", aka "Dionisses
 Kerentos", an official member of the Greek-Armenian-Yugoslav terror
 triangle.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: politics
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:39:28 GMT


In article 22555@rs.com, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>The Philistines were *never* in Israel -- and their name *never* evolved into
>"Palestinians". That's a shameful lie which is bandied about all too often.

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on where the Philistines lived?

Brendan.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:35:08 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

I didn't see any postings in regard to Bush's latest ploy to
obtain popular support - guaranteeing the $10 billion to
Israel solely on Rabin's word of freezing settlement activity.

Wasn't it made even sweeter with Rabin's gesture of inviting
the PLO to the peace talks?

Do posters here really believe that Bush is anti-semitic now
and are they understanding the reality of politics and its
cycle?

Anisa

	"I'm just a human girl person and I ain't always
	perfect".
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censo
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 20:36:28 GMT

In article <oiFkPB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>> this doesn't seem to have helped.  It was Palestineans that
>> assasinated King Hussein's grandfather, King Abdullah, and later it
>> was Palestineans that started the Intifada in Jordan that resulted in
>> nearly 10,000 dead in a single month (Black September).  Then they

>Jake, don' mix history.  Black September has nothing to do with the Intifada.
>Black September was in September 1970 (King Hussein against PLO and other pa-
>lestinian groups). The Intifada began  8.December.1987 (palestinians against
>IsraeL).

The uprising by Palestinean Arabs in Jordan against the government
had substantial similarities to the uprising by Palestinean Arabs in 
Israel.  One of the main differences is that the Jordanians quashed 
their "Intifada" in one month, killing thousands, while Israel has 
been very, very much more restrained resulting in several hundred
deaths over a period of several years of this kind of civil war.

Another difference is that the Jordanians didn't get much bad press
for killing several thousand Palestineans in a matter of weeks while
Israel has been castigated for years for the violence that has
continued under their restraint.  Had an American governor done
something similar, he would've been booed as being "soft on crime",
but when it happens in Israel, they are being booed as "brutal".

The term Intifada has come to be associated with the Palestinean Arab
uprising against Israel, though people have generally forgotten that
the Palestinean Arabs have also risen up against Jordan, a land that
was once called Palestine and which is almost entirely populated by
Palestineans and always has been.  The Palestineans know that it's
much easier to fight against Israel than Jordan and so are taking the
path of least resistance, not greatest justice.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18722 misc.headlines:5658 talk.politics.misc:40126 alt.conspiracy:10050
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censo
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:45:35 GMT
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

> In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug11135524@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.ed
> >In article <1992Aug11.014832.2544@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake 

> this doesn't seem to have helped.  It was Palestineans that
> assasinated King Hussein's grandfather, King Abdullah, and later it
> was Palestineans that started the Intifada in Jordan that resulted in
> nearly 10,000 dead in a single month (Black September).  Then they


Jake, don' mix history.  Black September has nothing to do with the Intifada.
Black September was in September 1970 (King Hussein against PLO and other pa-
lestinian groups). The Intifada began  8.December.1987 (palestinians against
IsraeL).

>> They killed plenty of Arabs and British civilians too, Jake.  I don't
>> know how you can say that the Zionist terrorists fought mostly the
>> British military.
> 
> Because they did.  And I notice that you stil call the Zionists terrorists.

As a Jew and Zionist I can't deny that there was also a jewish/zionist terro-
rist group: LEHI (also called Stern Gang, because of its founder Avraham Stern)
a group that splittet from the IRGUN on June.1940, a right wing underground
group led by Begin and Shamir, that ALSO commited terrorist assaults. There is
enough jewish literature about it (e.g. Encyclopaedia Judaica) where you can
read about it. The difference between jewish and arabic terrorism is that 
jewish terrorism was criticized openly by the jewish establishment (Jewish
Agency, at that time practically the oficial jewish government before Israel
was born). Arabic terrorism has NEVER been criticized by arabic leaders and
governments: either they didn't say anything publicly against the terrorists
after they commited an atentate against civilians (e.g. Maalot, Munich, etc.
etc.etc.) or they found a cheap or fine excuse for it, and even some welcomed
it openly. If Jim Eggert believes that Israel is a terrorist country, then he
doesn't know anything very much about history. Israel is a "terrorist" country
as any other democratic country, included USA. The big difference is that
Israel is a small country surrounded by very dangerous undemocratic and
totalitarian countries and peoples, who have enough petro-dollars to buy any
kind of armaments they wish to destroy Israel.  



 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bval@ilws61 (Valentine Bob)
Subject: PLO at the peace talks????
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 06:36:42 GMT
Organization: Intel
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Anisa writes

>I didn't see any postings in regard to Bush's latest ploy to
>obtain popular support - guaranteeing the $10 billion to
>Israel solely on Rabin's word of freezing settlement activity.
>
>Wasn't it made even sweeter with Rabin's gesture of inviting
>the PLO to the peace talks?
>
>Do posters here really believe that Bush is anti-semitic now
>and are they understanding the reality of politics and its
>cycle?
>

Sorry, I think I'm being had but, did Rabin really make this gesture?

Really?

Since I assume he didn't, I might say that a cynic could see the
ambiguity of "polical <> security settlements" as equivalent to
the PLO "accepting 242" but not rejecting their covenant or condemning
terror attacks etc., etc.

No matter what, the Israelis can say to the Arabs / Palestinians,
"your move". They don't have to make any more gestures, having
made a big one (even if some may say it isn't completely complete...)

The loan gaurantees have nothing to do with any more gestures to the
Arabs / Palestinians, unless of course, the rich Arab nations are 
going to provide the loans!

The loan garantees are the payoff for...

	allowing the holy coalition to stay together (by sitting tight in
	sealed rooms while Scuds and Patriots whiz by outside) so Bush could
	spank Saddam 

	getting rid of Shamir, i.e., "toeing the line" with U.S> interests

and are intended to boost Bushes Jewish support. 

As far as Bush / Baker being anti-semetic, I beleive I agree with Anisa
here.

Bush / Baker / U.S. position is to secure its vital resources (at prices it
likes.) Israel sometimes serves that need, (military intelligence, Jewish
vote) and sometimes doesn't (difficultys for U.S. in maintaining Israel 
friendship and vital friendships with oil-rich mideast despots who are at
war with Israel.)

Today, the important resouce is the Jewish vote.

Along these lines, I don't beleive the Pollard case is anti-semetic either.

The U.S. reserves special punishments for "allies" that get "out of line".

The examples are Panama, U.S. punishing Iran for dumping the Shah etc by 
supporting Iraq (Saddam), U.S. punishing Iraq (Saddam) for "going too far" 
in his border disputes with our buddies in Kuwait, and Pollard is the
example to Israel on what happens if "allies" misbehave. 

[OF course, the "loan garantees", the damaging press leaks re
Israeli economy which were contradicted by other sources, 
the unsubstaniated technology transfer allegations etc are
all coordinated efforts by U.S. to keep Israel in line, which necessitated
dumping Shamir (Right) since they wanted to pursue a policy that the U.S.
didn't want them to.]

Hey, this is what superpowers are for, being super powerful.

With the Walkers, who sold vital secrets to our arch enemy, there was no one
to punish. Plus they did it for money and not ideology, which by U.S.
standards is acceptable.

Oh well...

Bob


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:30:32 GMT

In article <stricher-180892001707@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>Speaking of the Arab/Israeli wars, could someone explain to
>me [very slowly if you must ;] how in 1973 the Syrians managed
>to get two armies up on the Golan without the Israelis 
>finding out about it *before* they attacked?

Very simply:

The War started Oct 6th, 1973.  This "happened" to be Yom Kippur, the
Day of Attonement, when all religious Jews spend the day fasting and
in synagouge praying.

The Israeli government did not believe that the Arab governments would
start a war on the Holiest day in the Jewish calendar.

The fact that that Armies were there was known, but it was expected
that the attack would not take place until after the holiday.  (All
that stuff about Judiasm being a protected religion under Islam...)

Clear?

Adam





Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: I humbly apologize to Dr. Arens for my working alphabetically.
Keywords: Werman apologizes, Arens accuses Israeli of working alphabetically
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:06:09 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Dr. Yigal Arens <arens@ISI.EDU> in message <22177@venera.isi.edu> writes:

[quoting me:]

>> I posted to three newsgroups, as far as I know, talk.politics.mideast,
>> misc.headlines, and talk.politics.misc.  Which of these is obscure?

[He replies:]

>Yes, you POSTED to the groups you mention, but your recent posts
>(including the one I'm responding to now!) have had their "Followup-To"
>set to misc.headlines.  Anyone can check this for themselves.

********************

I responded to the groups where he posted; he, on the other hand posted to: 

talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,
and alt.censorship 

- Anyone can check this for themselves.

Dr. Arens apparently thinks that misc.headlines is obscure.  I do not.
He, on the other hand, has no problems with alt.censorship or 
alt.conspiracy.  These in his judgement are apparently not obscure.
[Although he too posted to misc.headlines, I note.]


No, he tells us, it is not the groups that are crossposted that he
meant but where I had my "Followup-To" set, to misc.headlines that
he objects to.  He, on the other hand, remains true to t.p.m.

I read the groups that I subscribe to alphabetically.  What can I
do if misc.headlines appears before t.p.m. and I catch his message
there?  I humbly apologize to Dr. Arens for working alphabetically.
How very dull of me.  This posting is deliberately set to t.p.m.
so Dr. Arens feels more comfortable.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast