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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:16:56 -0800
From:         CAROLYN DAWNELE KELLER <CKELLER@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Our Christian nation

Dave, I dont know about this particular situation you mentioned, however,
to answer your question of whether muslims would we persecuted in the U.S. is
Yes.  Not on the grounds they are from a different culture but because they
worship a different
God.  Aren't Christians being persecuted on a daily basis?  One has to be
able to fight for what they feel is right.
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:08:33 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

On Fri, 22 Jan 1993, AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET wrote:

> Dougl,
>
> Great question.... Now as for my answer....
>
> The Judge's decision is commendable and the system fair....IF ALL THE
> AMENDMENTS PASSED BEFORE AND SINCE IN COLORADO MEET THE REQUIREMENT....
> NOW, I do not think so....
>
> ZAHIR

By Jon's standards, once chosen, the govt has the authority to legislate
until removed from office by de-election or impeachment or, in the case of
the Colorado Ammendment, by recourse to the courts.

Not all statutes are subjected to the 'strict scrutiny' requirement by the
courts for any number of reasons, the least of which would be that few
judges have Judge Bayless's foresight.

Are you suggesting, Zahir, that for a mass-democracy [representative or
otherwise] to work all decisions of the government should be automatically
subjected to constitutional strict scrutiny? Would this be a condition for
your accepting that America is a democracy?

Dougl....

P.S. - whatever your answer, Zahir, I think that recourse to strict
scrutiny - open and available recourse that is - is an ideal in the US and
not the norm. Like so much else in the much-vaunting [and much-vaunted
-smiles, Jon] American democracy, I think the constitutional gatekeeping
of American courts is a smokescreen which sustains rather than challenges
the status quo.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:25:22 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Media/communicatioons

Jon,

I write about poverty and minorities and you give me an example of
Gretsky and You..... No you cannot be the equal of Gretsky.... are
you suggesting that minorities earn less for the same reason? or more
of them end up in jail for the same reason?....

If equality is an ideal of democracy...and we have a democracy, than
there should have been a lot more of equality....

zahir
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Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:01:52 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Democracy, Freedom of Speech and the courts.....

Oh, I suppose I used the reference to "wise judges" not to define their
formal qualification but to invoke the image on the basis of which
conformity is more likely to be obtained without recourse to the use of
any more explicit force--the "because he says so" approach.  The more
secure a population is with its acceptance of regulations for what seem to
be good and just reasons (even outranking personal advantge) the less need
for that part of "wise judge" which contributes to the trappings of
authority.  But the other reason for the surround given him is related to
a desire that he have, cherish, continue to acquire, and demonstrate
wisdom.  Since we can't pump it into him, we try to find those who will
self select into the amenities.  Limos are ridden in by judges, of course,
but in my experience stretch limos are not the right choice for them.  It
is the chauffeur that contributes to the judge's advantages, not the
opulence.  His chambers are likely to be large and filled with books
rather than the expensive furniture of the State Department's eighth
floor or the White House.  The easy chair is one of his settings and
the oversized desk another, but always with rows of books.
  But you've raised the question of those judges who run for reelection.
That offers the obvious advantage and disadvantage and is harder for me to
fathom.
  Judgeship seems to cover a multitude of whatevers.  Any judges on the net?
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Inauguration prayer
Date: 21 Jan 1993 06:22:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, oliver@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU () says:

>Regarding Joyce's comment about the inauguration prayer, I confess that
>I have become numb over the non-observance of the separation of church
>and state over the years.

In this case, I rather liked it, but as the card-carrying Christian
evangelical in here, I would.:-)  Billy Graham has been a preacher and an
evalgelist for more years than most people reading this have been alive.  
He's never going to change his style, least of all in front of a global
audience.  Whoever asked him to handle the prayer section of the
Inauguration had to know that very well - so forget about coming down on
the Rev. for this one, if there's any reaso to come down on anyone.  Christian
prayers are a traditional part of the ceremony.  Those who don't believe in
them or just plain don't like them can tune them out.  I don't think public
prayers really mean anything anymore in this culture anyway.  It's kind of
pointless to become upset about something that's essentially hollow.  "In God
We Trust" may be on the currency, but I've yet to meet a Treasury officer
who payed that more than lip service, if that.  Even if a person doesn't
believe in a God, or at least not in the God in question, I don't see how this
is worth bothering getting upset about.  It isn't worth the effort.

>campaign.  Nixon said that the anyone ought to be able to
>run for president "as long as HE believes in God."  In all fairness
>to slippery Dick, I don't remember if he actually said "he", though
>in 1960 he probably did.  Doesn't matter, though.  He still excluded me. 8-)
>
He probably did say "he", but even so it shouldn't make a difference.  
Chances are that ol' Tricky Dick was referring to men only, but the language
itself uses "man" or "men" as an inclusive term for both sexes.  So even
if he didn't mean to say it, he said it.:-) [just a linguistic quibble from
an overeducated woman, who thinks he/she is hopelessly clunky]

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:53:19 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: President Clinton

How very gracious of the gentleman from the Irish Republic.  My hopes are
as high as his, my expectations perhaps a bit lower, but my appreciation
for the good wishes is at the moment the dominant feeling.
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:56:05 -0500
From:         Username was LODEESEN <LODEESENJ@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Thanks for your reflections on the experience we Americans have shared in
differing ways.  I don't know where to begin in trying to find out why we
see it as differently as we do.  I am dissatisfied and you are dissatisfied.
I am impressed by the achievements of others who were dissatisfied.  You are
not.  I think that the work left to be done should be done.  I believe you
agree.  I think that in order to do that work, we can build on the work of
others, learning from their successes and failures.  You would apparently
not agree with that since you do not see that they had successes.  This is,
indeed, if it is not just rhetoric, a fundamental difference not likely to be
resolved in discussion.  When there is a large body of agreement, it is
possible to argue the details.  One can specify a failure or short-coming and
ask why it should be considered to be a failure of Reagan-Bush if, as you seem
to assume, society is composed of people who don't care.  In that case,
Reagan-Bush have nothing to do with it.  Your protgonist is the society.  And
what view of our Government do you have if you believe that Presidents who
neither controlled the legislatures of the federal government nor were very
influential in most of the states.  You want to leave quotas out of the
discussion.  OK.  But could you let me know whether you think that WE all
are an enemy to whom you can preach but which won't listen?  Do you think that
there are some decent human beings out there somewhere?  How many are they?
Are they not the majority?  Why not?  I suppose if my view of the world were
the one I FEEL is yours, I would not try to change the world.  I would just
avoid people.  MY world is composed of frail and imperfect people like myself
with incomplete visions of the world.  They search with no hopes of OWNING
truth but simply trying to get as close to it as they can.  The search and
its results have transformed the world in my lifetime, making further searching
that much easier.  I'm sorry it doesn't impress you.  I still hope you make use
of it.
Jon L.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:00:22 -0800
From:         ANNA VONDIELINGEN <AVONDEIL@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: HELLO, LIST MEMBERS

Interesting, I'm happy that you are interested in doing a better job, I hope tha
 t you are very successful and bring about positive change.
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 08:32:26 -0500
From:         "Douglass St. Christian" <stchri@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Bio

Me?

I am an anthropologist currently completing his Phd at McMaster U in
Canada. My areas of interest are varied but I am currently working on
research focused on the introduction of new conceptions of the body in
south pacific societies over the last two hundred years. Along with that I
work as a consultant with two organizations which provide support and
advocacy for multiply handicapped older adults.

I joined xcult-l about three years ago - back when Joyce was majordomo -
and remain convinced it is one of the most lively and diverse electronic
conversations on the net.

Dougl,           *
The           .
Southern       *   *
Cross            *

AKA

  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
  <->                        <->
  <-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
  <-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
  <-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
  <-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
  <->                        <->
  <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Wed, 20 Jan 1993 21:43:02 EST
From:         oliver@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU
Subject:      Time to introduce yourself!

I second Tom's suggestion.  It is more than six
months since I last invited all of our members to
introduce yourselves and to tell us why you subscribed
to XCULT-L.  Tell us what interests you the most about
intercultural communication.

Oliver Seely
Listowner, XCULT-L
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:22:36 -0700
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Media/communicatioons

Ah, Zahir.   NOW we are approaching a rational discussion.  I have your
claims.  Now I'm ready for your warrants.  This is not a classroom or a
courtroom.  But it IS discussion, not a diatribe.

There will be those who will question your warrants.  That doesn't
mean that they are trying to "shut you up"; it means that they are
attempting to decide if they can accept your claims or not.  Now, there
are some rules, albeit not clearly stated, about acceptable warrants.
For example, in English "It is written" is not an acceptable warrant,
though it for many Arabic speakers.  I think it's Tom (but I can't be
sure, because if people don't sign their messages I can't tell whose
message it is) you challenged your warrants.  You simply repeated them--
you didn't expand on them or explain them or add to them--simply repeated
them.  That's what's knows as "repeated affirmation," and in a rational
debate (argument/discussion) in English does not constitute acceptable
warrants.  You also often just repeat your claims, again not sufficient.

For those of your interested in cross-cultural communication, you are
witnessing it!!

Janet
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 08:02:44 -0700
From:         WILLD@BYUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Time to introduce yourself!

I am David Williams from Brigham Young University.  I joined XCULT-L with
hopes of finding others interested in cross-cultural inquiry (mostly
qualitative).  I am particularly interested in service learning in
international settings.  That is, what can one learn while offering service
to others in settings beyond their home territory.  I subscribed about two
weeks ago and haven't seen much of this kind of thing in people's entries.
Has such discussion gone on before?  Are any of you aware of service
learning inquiry you could point me toward?  I find the railings against
various governments and perceived majority positions interesting but I am
looking for something constructive to do about the many problems and hope
to learn about some of those here.
David D. Williams    Instructional Science Department
201-C MCKB    Brigham Young University    Provo, UT 84602
Voice:  801-378-2765      Fax: 801-378-4017
Internet: willd@yvax.byu.edu. Bitnet: willd@byuvax.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:26:09 EST
From:         Kerry <U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      foreign trip

Hi everyone, I hope you all had enjoyable vacations (if you had them).
I spent my Christmas in Venezuela (the city of Maracaibo); it was my
first time abroad.  I just want to say that, although it had some
bad things, it was an absolutely fantastic and beautiful country with
a very beautiful culture.  I almost didn't want to come back to the
United States...I actually miss it a lot.
    One thing that really impressed me, however, is the Venezuelan and
I assume latino/hispanic attitude about colors or races.  Because there
was so much racial mixing in colonial days between the European Spanish,
the Africans and Native Americans, nobody really has a color.  Some
people look really white, like pure European and others look Indian or
of African descent. However there is such a variety of colors in cities,
the mountains, even in a family, that I couldn't identify the color of
most people. As a United States citizen, I am used to the societal rule
that color is a person's identity. In Venezuela, I felt so free and happy,
because everybody looks different and nobody cares.  People even make
jokes about each other's color. They can say anything and not be afraid.
They can notice the color difference between brothers or a boyfriend and
girlfriend and it doesn't matter.  I would like to consider myself open-
minded, but I never imagined what it could feel like if people could live
together with dividing themselves and each other into color groups. It
was the most beautiful feeling and I would leave the United States just
for that reason alone.  Of course, Venezuela isn't perfect...
    I just wanted to tell you that, although I know we are from different
countries. Maybe some of you out there live in a country like that,
without colors. I will wait for someone to respond to this or tell us
something about their own country. Some people in the United States
think that it (the US) is the best country or superior somehow to
other countries and cultures. I just feel sad for them, because I don't
think there is a "best country".  Everyone has a favorite and that's
OK.  Who knows, maybe I like Venezuela better than the United States;
I would like to move actually and live in many different countries and
never come back.  So, write if you want, about your country or a place
you visited; I don't care. I just wanted to share my happy experienceq
with you .

Oh, I forgot! Oliver wanted us to introduce ourselves. My name is Kerry
Reese and I study international studies (politics, not business) at the
University of South Carolina. I'm a junior. I joined XCULT , because I
like talking to foreign students and learning things about other countries.

Bye everyone! Chao! Ciao! Au revoir! Zaijan! ( please excuse my horrible
                                                spelling).

             Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:46:00 +0200
From:         TOMY_ACE@EGAUCACS.BITNET
Subject: Re: Our Christian nation

  CAROLYN DAWNELE KELLER <CKELLER@BESTLA.CALSTATELA.EDU> wrote:

>Dave, I dont know about this particular situation you mentioned, however,
>to answer your question of whether muslims would we persecuted in the U.S. is
>Yes.  Not on the grounds they are from a different culture but because they
>worship a different
>God.  Aren't Christians being persecuted on a daily basis?  One has to be
>able to fight for what they feel is right.

This is outrageous. Where did you get the idea that Christaians are persecuted
in Islamic countries . To your information one of the basics of Islam is
believing in Moses and Jesus and their holy books i.e. we as Muslims believe
in the same God of Moses and Jesus. The rights of people of the book (Jews
and Christians) are totally protected by the laws of Islam . In fact I have
many friends here in Egypt and abroad who are Christians. Your message is
another example of people writing on impulse without knowledge  of what they
are blabbering about.
Please read about relegions before you start talking about them.Also don't
mix between relegion and politics .

Hatem Dowidar
Cairo-Egypt
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:44:00 PST
From:         hari ramachandran <IBC6HSR@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ill-posed general linear equation system, inverse problem

> -- Yaomin Wang
> Email: apyw@ibm.rz.tu-claustha
>
> I have to solve a ill-posed GENERAL linear equation system
> out of an inverse analysis with Boundary Element Method (BEM).
> The order of the matrix varies from 100 to 200. The condition
> number ranges from 0.10000000D+20 to 0.10000000D+30. All
> computations must take place in quadruple precision on
> IBM3090 machine and the solutions are (numerical) exact
> enough. Computations in double precision have no results.
>
> It is difficult for an engineer to start with regularization and/or
> singular value decomposition (SVD) of an ill-conditioned system.

Regards the solution of singular systems, I don't have first hand
experience, but numerical recipes has a 'black box' SVD routine.


hari
hsr@uclaph.physics.ucla.edu
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:19:00 PST
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From:         JIWANG@SCU.BITNET

Add me to the mailing list Philip J. Wang
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:29:33 MET
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From:         APYW%IBM.RZ.TU-CLAUSTHAL.DE@IBM.GWDG.DE
Subject:      ill-posed general linear equation system, inverse problem

Dear Madame and Sir, Hello netters!

I have to solve a ill-posed GENERAL linear equation system
out of an inverse analysis with Boundary Element Method (BEM).
The order of the matrix varies from 100 to 200. The condition
number ranges from 0.10000000D+20 to 0.10000000D+30. All
computations must take place in quadruple precision on
IBM3090 machine and the solutions are (numerical) exact
enough. Computations in double precision have no results.

I have tried different GAUSS-methods (partial or complete pivoting,
modified method according to residuals, LINPACK, NAPACK, LAPACK) and
used the driver DGESVX of LAPACK version 1.0b to equalibrate the
matrix. Newly we have used HOUSEHOLDER-TRANSFORMATION too. All these
help hardly, because we would like to solve the system with double
precision, not with quadruple precision, in order to transfer our
theory into praxis.

It is difficult for an engineer to start with regularization and/or
singular value decomposition (SVD) of an ill-conditioned system.

Therefore I wish to find PROGRAMS for the ill-posed GENERAL linear
equation system. I hope to get some tips, algorithms, programs or
related informations from You Experts on the list.

Any further helps are very appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance.

Yours sincerely
-- Yaomin Wang

                            Institute for Equipment and Plant Design
                            Technical University Clausthal (TUC)
                            C/O Dipl.-Ing. Yaomin Wang
                            Zellbach 5
                            D-3392 Clausthal-Zellerfeld
                            Tel: +49 05323 722576
                            Email: apyw@ibm.rz.tu-clausthal.de
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:17:00 PST
From:         JIWANG@SCU.BITNET

SIGNON me to the mailing list Philip J. Wang
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 09:41:24 -0800
From:         mccalld@SONOMA.EDU
Subject:      DSDSIM
Comments: To: CYBER-L@uga.cc.uga.edu%MAILER.dnet@mvax.Sonoma.EDU

A followup to another posting on this subject is that:

you need CTPC set in your user account access word under modval to
allow dsdsim to run correctly!
david
mccalld@sonoma.edu
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