HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Doing something for moi
From: Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:08:19 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.

In article <BtpA3C.Htw@acsu.buffalo.edu> v130py5w@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Renee) writes:
>>i like to walk among the trees and talk to them, i like to watch the squirrls,
>>sometimes i get so absorbed in the trees that i want to cry.....i sit and think
>>and watch and want to cry......wierd huh?
>>then there are times i feel totally at peace and happy but i still want to 
>>cry....
>> 
>>renee
>
>* sorry i should have added more,sorry to take up space...i think i do this
>* because when i sit there in the quite beauty i feel so close to the answers
>* that it hurts, yet i feel so far away from them.....i hope that makes sense...
>* <sigh>
>
>renee

There is a school of thought/feeling, that it is a refreshing change
to have someone simply say how good things are for them, and to share
this, especially when we are aware of pain they have been through.

Essentially, go head and share good things.  It is a good use of
space, regardless as to whether you meant net "bandwidth" or the space
your body occupies.


Gavin

-- 
Tomorrow's Society                              | flower_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
    Depends on                                   ----------------------------
Today's Children  - help us raise them properly! 
*******  These comments have no known correlation with dept. policy!  *******
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: Panda's back from the bush.
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:05:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.225945.1@acad2.alaska.edu> assbc1@acad2.alaska.edu writes:
>Greetings from PANDA,
>
>I am glad to be back from the bush and working a new job that will pay me to
>read asar at work. (no joke, I even asked)

welcome back panda!! 
i'm glad you'll be back with us and look forward to hearing more from
you. sounds like you've made a lot of progress since you last wrote.
and well done on asking for asar at your new job! 
sally
>
>PANDA
>
From: afdenis@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison)
Subject: Re: Talking to a survivor
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Ancient Souls Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 1992 13:59 EST  

In article <scott_silverstein-270892142227@lasagne.med.yale.edu>, scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu (Scot Silverstein) writes...
>Am I alone in having the feeling that talking to a Survivor
>can leave a person thinking he/she's just traversed a mine field
>covered by barbed wire, barefoot?

No... because that's exactly what it is, Scott. Bear 2 things in mind, 
however...

	1) That barbed wire was strung, and the mines laid by
	   someone other than the survivor...

				and

	2) At the other end of that seemingly insurmountable obstacle
	   course is a worthwhile, loving, and wounded human being that
	   you care about deeply, or you wouldn't be in the battle zone
	   in the first place !

> 
>Not meant as a criticism, 

Nor is mine ...

>just interested in commentary.

.. and joo got it, Buckwheat ! :-)


-- Stephen

	"Some people live their dreams, some people close their eyes.
	 Some people's destiny... passes by"

					"I'll Be Over You"   -- Toto
From: barbaraj@csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Survivor in denial?
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:14:04 GMT
Reply-To: barbaraj@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments

In article <1992Sep3.224011.6115@unislc.uucp>, erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:

>> How interesting a double standard you present!  You judge him as a harasser
>> if he reacts to her in a certain way, yet refuse judgement on *anything* she
>> would do to him?  Sounds fishy to me...
 
No, I do not refuse judgement on anything she would do to him.  I don't 
recall exactly what the initial brou-ha-ha that brought about the
separation was, and the original article has expired.  What I think I
remember is that she may been somewhat abusive in the manner with
which she set her boundary.  And in the aftermath, I found some of her
behavior manipulative.

So what?  This stuff about relationships and setting boundaries is, I
think, the core of the healing work for most survivors of incestuous
child abuse.  Because the patterns of communication we learned at an
early age were so bizarre (is the polite way to put it.  F*cked up is
the reality).  What I have learned in my incest survivors group is to
meet each person where they are, and to trust that we are all working
very hard to learn how to be more effective, more REAL in all of our
interpersonal relationships.  

Again, my opinion of her behavior in this situation is moot because I
don't have any opportunity for (1) hearing her side of the story, or
(2) interacting with her about her feelings and actions.  I certainly
don't hold her blameless for the current situation.  There are
consequences to her ineffective behavior, and she will have to deal
with those consequences.  But I do trust that she is doing the very
best that she knows how, given the knowledge and experience that she
has.

BJ
 
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
                                        Emma Goldman
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: aw@sei.cmu.edu (Anne Wulffraat)
Subject: Re: On being powerless
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:40:46 GMT


Robert's post touched home with me. I used to, and still sometimes tend to,
take the blame for the behavior of those around me. I couldn't accept that
the people I loved and trusted could hurt me without it being my fault.
And afterwards, knowing I'd survived and started recovering without any
people to support me, I decided I was more like WonderWoman. I could handle
anything. I even hesitated when I started digging deeper into it because I
realized that I'd have to accept the fact that it WASN'T MY FAULT. 

It taught me that there is irrationality everywhere and I can't control it. But
I also learned that the fact that I survived it all tells me I AM strong.
Robert, what you're doing takes more courage and strength than most people
have. The fact that any of us are doing it proves we have an indomitable
spirit and hope that there is a better world than the one we've been shown.
And in a large part, it's that feeling that keeps us all separate from what
I call Real People. I was so bad I had to go through all that alone to feel
human enough to talk with you. You're a wonderful, strong person and I respect
and admire you. Don't get down. Your place in this world is becoming better
and more wonderful every day. And since you've never even heard of me before
now, there's proof that your place in the world is growing and you're
reaching people in a positive way.

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: aatresa@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Teresa Kline)
Subject: Re: Talking to a survivor
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Yeah, *right* !
Date: 28 Aug 1992 08:08 EST  

In article <scott_silverstein-270892142227@lasagne.med.yale.edu>, scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu (Scot Silverstein) writes...
>Am I alone in having the feeling that talking to a Survivor
>can leave a person thinking he/she's just traversed a mine field
>covered by barbed wire, barefoot?
> 
>Not meant as a criticism, just interested in commentary.

No criticism taken.
I'm a survivor, and I have to admit I've used the same analogy myself.  
Especially in intimate (meaning "close", not "sexual") relationships.  
There are still, even after how far I've come in my healing, a lot of mines 
out there.  Occasionally, one gets tripped.  
But, I have to admit, I think it's not just survivors who have this problem.
I have friends who have a lot of mines of their own who are *not* survivors.
Makes relationships interesting.  :-)

-- Teresa

		Life -- just for the FUN of it!!!!
From: root@khijol.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Too Scared to Live, Too Chicken to Die
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:38:14 GMT

X-ANON-Version: 0.4

Ah, well, that's the thing, isn't it?  My life is a wreck, I'm alone, and
I can't stop crying.  What's left?

- Mr. Alone

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From: barbaraj@sacajawea.csc.ti.com (Heart Dancer)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Survivor in denial?
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:49:14 GMT
Reply-To: barbaraj@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments

In article <scott_silverstein-020992083933@lasagne.med.yale.edu>, scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu (Scot Silverstein) writes:
>> Further followup to my previous posts about my (ex?)friend,
>> 
>> I think she's in denial about the effects on the abuse on her current
>> situation and behavior.  She speaks disparangingly about therapy & to my
>> knowledge has only been involved a few months.  Yet she spoke openly about
>> the fact that she is a survivor.
>> 
>> Would it help re-establish communication if I dropped her a note indicating
>> I had read "The Courage to Heal", "Allies in Healing", and saying I'd like
>> to talk?
>> 
>> Opinions?

As a survivor, one of the areas which takes ongoing conscious attention is in
the area of setting boundaries.  One of the most supportive things my friends
cand do for me is to honor the boundaries when I set them.  This woman has 
set a boundary.  

She does not want to speak with you right now.  If you persist trying to engage
her in communication, no matter how well intended, you are (1) harrassing her
and (2) communicating that within your friendship, her wishes are not
as important as your wishes.  

No one of us can rush the process of recovery for ourselves, much less
for anyone else.  We are all doing the very best we know how on this
path to wholeness.  Sometimes I get frustrated with how other people
are doing their recovery, as I'm sure people get frustrated with how
I'm doing my recovery.  It seems like it's always about a zillion
times easier to see the healthy choice for someone else, then to see
it for myself and act on it, *especially* in relationships.

Bottom-line, my opinion is that you need to let go and let her make
the next move.   

BJ
 
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
                                        Emma Goldman
From: bob@reed.edu (Robert Ankeney)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: On being powerless
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:57:49 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR


     Something I was writing about in my journal this morning got me to
thinking about how I accepted blame for a lot of awful things that
happened in my childhood.  I accepted blame for my parents physically
abusing me.  "If you hadn't been such a bad boy, ..."  And I accepted
responsibility for their feelings, too.  "This is going to hurt me more
than it will hurt you!"
     But something I realized today was that by accepting responsibility
for my parents' actions and feelings meant I was accepting the power to
affect them.  Power!  A form of power in an otherwise powerless life.
Now there's a bargain that's hard to pass up.  But of course, accepting
responsibility means I have to accept guilt too.  :-(
     So I'm having to accept my true powerlessness now.  I can't really
control others.  One thing I used to believe was I had magical powers.
That if I did things *just right*, I could end or prevent my abuse.  It
was a useful belief when I was very young.  But I have to let go of that
too.
     I think believing I had power over others is rather egocentric and
a touch grandiose.  It made me important.  I guess being the vent for
my parents rage made me important too.  Almost indispensible in a way.
So I have to let go of my feeling of importance, my egocentricity and
accept my real place in the scheme of things.  Which is pretty
insignificant, all in all.  :-(  Kind of humbling, I guess.  Oh, well...
     Just thought I'd share some thoughts today.

     Take care, all.
     Robert
From: weaverli0469@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Dreams
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:30:41 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Hi all.... I'm back:) I had somewhat of a good summer. Worked a lot, and got a
lot off of my chest. This summer was really ackward for me because I was living
at home (my father is the one who abused me). I was forced into confronting my
feelings about my dad and mom. I never told them, but i guess that's the next
step.  Anyway.... I found out that my mom blames the both of us. She came out
and said it one night. I got really angry with her but didn't show it. God I
need to get it out; to yell,scream, whatever it takes. I'm sick of holding it
in! aaaaaarrrrrgggggg!!!!! I just have alot to get out. hopefully this sem.
I will work through things. 

        On the brighter side of things.... I had a great dream (the first i
might add) about my "friend" who raped me. the scene goes like this.....
I'm at my 5 year reunion and who do I see first??? Chris the asshole. I walk up
to him and say "So, did the police get a hold of you"
he replies with "yeah, what did you tell them?"
I say "The truth!"
that's where it ended... It may sound stupid... but it's a lot better than
having dreams of the rape. I got a real boost from this, and I feel my self
esteem beginning to rise. I love it!!!!

        I've found someone to talk to about everything. He knows everything
about me and is there when I need him. It's  a really neat friendship that
keeps growing with each passing day. Anyway, i feel like I'm babbling so I'm
going to quit. Lotsa E-Hugs to all who want and need them.

        bye for now
        -Shawna
 
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1159@twwells.com (Kristian)
Subject: Re: Adults saying NO
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:05:28 GMT

>kram+@SOUTHFORK.EDRC.CMU.EDU (Paul Kram) posted #6029
>Can I be sure a survivor means "Yes" when she says "Yes"?  
>Does the difficulty with saying "No" carry over to 
>relationships that you choose to have with another 
>adult?  (e.g. do you become involved sexually before
>you really want to?)  Is there a way to ask the
>Yes/No question that has a better chance of getting
>a freely-given heartfelt true answer?  

Someone responded  that there is a good chapter in The Courage To
Heal for partners  of survivors.  Laura Davis's ALLIES IN HEALING
is, IMO, quite marvellous  in  answering  a  lot of your specific
questions  from  *many*  perspectives  and  gives  techniques  of
checking in with a survivor's feelings in various situations.

I  (a survivor) found it very  good  reading  just  to  get  some
perspective on how I might be coming  across  to people around me
because I wanted at least to come to them part way and not expect
all the understanding to be directed at me.

"Kristian"



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From: FGBCC@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Woody Allen
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:50:36 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Sorry, but by his own admission he committed incest.  He stepped over the
boundary.  Plain and simple!  As far as the other charges, I understand
that the police are investigating.  I am not speculating about the alleged
activities of his molesting his son and 7 yr old adopted daughter.  He is
guilty of abusing his daughter and damaging the rest of the family by his
stepping over the boundaries and having an incestuous relationship with
a daughter and she could be 50 yrs old, age is not what is in question here,
incestuous behavior is.    In fact if the court new of his maladaptive behavior
he most assuredly would not have received the right to adopt her step siblings.
I don't say this because I don't like Woody Allen, quite the contrary, but
I didn't realize how dysfunctional the guy is, until he got in front of the
cameras to profess his love for thistep child, this guy is in trouble
emotionally!  Regrettably, I will be not able to enjoy his work as I had
in the past.  I will view his work now with not entertainment in mind, but
as the profession I have been trained in, namely a close to finished Ph.d.
in psychology.  PS, my dissertation is on incest!  It should be finished
within 6-8 months at the most, and for any of you disbelievers, this was
and has been my topic for the last year at least!  Just in case some might
think I am an opportunist!
Ciao
From: root@khijol.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Emotions
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:34:35 GMT

X-APS-Version: 0.2


 
What is it about emotions that makes them so painful at times and so comforting
at other times?
 
I find that when I start getting a warm feeling about something that if my
head takes over and the feeling becomes painful, I just about become 
incompacitated.  If I try to not think about emotions, sometimes they are
still so painful that I still become incompacitated.

There does not seem to be any pattern ...

Can you help me understand this please.


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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd)
Subject: Re: Adults saying NO
Reply-To: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov
Organization: Unisys/EPA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:29:53 GMT

Ultimately the goal of healthy adult relationships is for them to work so that 
the partners are somehow "equal" in their power in the relationship.  This carries
over into every aspect of the relationship.

This means that each partner will take full responsibility for knowing what they
want, what they don't want, and communicating it adequately to their partner.
It also means that if one partner is not sure of something, it is their responsibility
to check it out and get clarification.

If one or both partners are not really in tune with their own truth, or aren't 
communicating from their truth,  or keep quiet,
then they own the responsibility for their part in any consequences that brings.

This sounded pretty tough when I first started learning about this idea.  Now
I see that it is really more a statement about what reality is.

--
Bob Boyd                 
rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov 
Unisys/EPA
From: erc@khijol.upl.com (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: a thought for you...
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:18:42 GMT
Reply-To: erc@apple.com

I picked up a book the other day called "365 Tao" - it's Taoist meditations
for every day of the year.  The one for September 4th is rather appropriate:

--------------------------------- cut here -----------------------------------
A dove got caught in the rafters last night.
I had quite a time trying to get her out.
She hit her head several times in panic.
Only when she was stunned was I able to care for her.

In the paper there was this quote from a sage:
"Human nature was originally one and we were a whole,
And the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love."


It was late at night.  Her flapping wings caught my attention.  I looked
up to see her perched in the rafters.  The dove tried to fly out,
but was either hurt or disoriented.  She skittered across the
ceiling.  Landing at the blue windows, she looked out, unable
to pass through the invisible barrier.  I climbed up and tried to
get her to fly out.  She let me come very close but was unable
to understand my language or actions.

She flew from me but quickly lost altitude and landed on
the floor.  I climbed down and urged her on.  There was just a
short distance to go, but she panicked and flew into a wall.  She
fell to my worktable, stunned, breathing hard, a feather lying
loose at her side.  Only then was I able to put her in a box and
care for her.

She couldn't understand my intentions and so was hurt.
I was unable to help her without being frightening.  Were all
living beings once connected?  Perhaps so, but in this world,
the pursuit of love and compassion is not without pain and
confusion.
--------------------------------- cut here -----------------------------------
How many times do we, trying to help (fellow) survivors, do we run up against
this?  It made things a bit clearer for me - I hope it helps you.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com, khijol!erc@saturn.upl.com       801/538-0177

"I never thought I'd see the President of the United States on nationwide TV,
giving out 1-800 numbers."    -- Susan Spencer, CBS White House correspondent

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: Group appropriate for nonsexual violent abuse recovery?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 22:08:02 GMT

tibbits@sisal.llnl.gov (Patrick Tibbits) writes:

>No group like alt.bruised-spat-on-and-screamed-at has come to my attention.
>Is this group appropriate for one who spent his early years in continual 
>fear of physical violence and verbal abuse?

well, given that people in that situation probably have a lot of the same
emotional problems to deal with as sexual abuse survivors, go right ahead.  i'm
sure you can get a lot of good from the discussions here, if you're willing to
mentally convert what they're saying to your situation.



-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1186@twwells.com (Lavender)
Subject: re:tipping
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:16:49 GMT


poohbear ...

           > i have no equilibrium

your comment just about knocked me off my teetertotter ... I must not let
you push me off though!

I have spent a rather restless night working on some issues related to work
and my relationship with my boss ... some of my problems with her are related
to the fact that she is a woman and some to the fact that I cannot get any
feedback about my performance from her.  I obviously don't know how to get
feedback from her 'cause each time I try, she replies with a nebulous reply
that virtually says 'how do you think you are doing?'

Any suggestions greatly appreciated ...

and poohbear ... hang in there ... the teetertoter does go back up and some say
that is part of the fun of a teetertotter ... :-)



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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: aw@sei.cmu.edu (Anne Wulffraat)
Subject: Just Questions
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:33:09 GMT

I have some questions and I'd appreciate any input from you guys.

Do you have dreams? What are they like?

Where were you un-involved parents or adult protective figures? Did none of
us have them?

How do you deal with your parents/siblings - especially if you think they may
not remember either?

I'd give my own input, but I'm crushed for time right now.

Thank you!!!
Hang in there,

-Anne