HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: x88phipps2@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: 4'33"(I hate to do this to you)
Date: 21 Nov 92 17:07:36 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

                              
Oh how I hate to do this----(but I will!)

	It's funny that there is a 4'33" thread running now on
rec.music.industrial.  Another proof of my theory that there is
no such thing as pure coincidence.  As far as the long-winded 
analysis of Cage's inspiration goes, perhaps we should ask Robert
Crumb.  He claims that shortly after producing a comic called Zen
(all blank pages) He showed JC the idea for 4'33", and that a few
weeks later, it was being performed.  It seems that Cage has been
accused of swiping others' ideas on other occasions as well.

	Honestly, wasn't there an occasion when you were younger and less
programmed that you found yourself in a litterature class listening to
long-winded explainations of artists' intentions, and thinking to
yourself:  "This is a load of bullocks!  The man's been dead for 300 years!
How do you know what he was thinking?"

_______________________________________________________________________________
   'I heard that Cage got up in front of an audience and just ate 
an apple.  And he got a thousand bucks!'
                                        Chuck Bukowski     
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           \  \| |/  /         |    X88phipps2@gw.wmich.edu   |  
            \       /          |                              |
             \     /           |  Western Michigan University |
              |   |            |                              |
              |   |            |______________________________|
              |___|
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Batons in period orchestras (was Re: More Haydn)
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:12:37 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <20NOV199207362646@rover.uchicago.edu> frank@rover.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Nov17.203151.20954@athena.mit.edu> ridgway@athena.mit.edu (Lee Ridgway) writes:
>>I'm not sure who made the baton a standard fixture for orchestral conductors
>>... 
>	Before the baton, "conductors" used something very much like the
>	drum-major's baton, and used it to pound out tempo by hitting it
>	on the floor.
>
>	One conductor managed to actually kill himself, by jabbing the point
>	of the baton into his foot, getting an infection from crud on the
>	point, and (pre any kind of antiseptics,) dieing from the wound.

That was Jean-Baptiste Lully (1632-87), who was Louis XIV's Minister of Music.
Not a sheet of music was published in France without his permission. He wrote
wonderful operas (actually, he defined French opera for 100 years), and sacred 
music (motets, masses).

-- 

	Francois Velde
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wagner - What Can We Say ?
From: sowhat@gphs.vuw.ac.nz (Christian Zick)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:46:39 GMT
Organization: Institute of Geophysics, Victoria University of Wellington, NZ

In article <aZuHuB2w165w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca>, al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (haus der luge) writes:
>  
> "Of all the [bete], clumsy, blundering, boggling, baboon-blooded stuff I 
> ever saw on a human stage, that thing last night beat - as far as the 
> story and the acting went - and of all the affected, sapless, soulless, 
> beginningless, endless, topless, bottomless, topsiturviest, tuneless, 
> scrannelpipiest - tongs and boniest - doggrel of sounds I ever endured 
> the deadliness of, that eternity of nothing was the deadliest, as far as 
> the sounds went.  I never was so relieved, so far as I can remember, in 
> my life, by the stopping of any sound - not excepting railroad whistles - 
> as I was by the cessation of the cobbler's bellowing."
> -JOHN RUSKIN ON WAGNER'S [DIE MEISTERSINGER]
>  
>..... 
(more opinions on wagner by other famous guys deleted)

(Foreword: I don't like operas, and I don't like Wagner, except when he did something off-hand like Tristan or those love songs, damn I don't get their name, but I see, with my inner eyes, Kirsten Flagstad's face on the LP cover.)

If you read something else by John Ruskin - "The Stones of Venice" - , you
will realise that these words and sentences rather correlate with
John Ruskin himself than with the average opinion about Wagner.

They are amusing though .... Can you tell me the JR source of your citation?

Christian Zick
sowhat@gphs.vuw.ac.nz
From: hsmoliar+@cs.cmu.edu (Harold Smoliar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Planets
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:22:35 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Nov15.001356.6601@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
>I haven't heard Previn's mentioned.  Royal Philharmonic, Telarc.  * * * * *
>
>Previn may not seem like your man for this piece, but I've made a lot of
>converts by playing the recording.  He is especially good at capturing inner-
>detail otherwise unheard.


I've never heard this recording but I have played it with him live and I would
agree that he did pay close attention to many details and that I enjoyed the
performances a lot.

Harold Smoliar
English horn, Pittsburgh Symphony
Piano, Symphony Jazz Quartet
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: tonality and modern music
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:07:11 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) wrote:
> alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
>> Likewise, there's plenty of melody in Stockhausen, for example, so why do
>> people accuse his music of having "no melody"? Not because there is no
>> melody, but because they cannot perceive the logic of it -- the logic may
> ... or could it be because they can't bloody sing it?  Melody is like
> a tune - you know, hummable.  Ever tried humming Stockhausen?

Have you actually *heard* much of Stockhausen?  Case in point: "Stimmung"
(which is about as tonal as music can possibly get).  If you can listen
to that all the way through and *not* have the urge to sing that little
"oo-ee-oo-ee-oo-ee-Yahweh" bit in the bath for the next week I would be
very surprised.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:16:23 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

 
Why would anyone issue a RECORDING of this?  It would seem that it should 
exist in performance only.
 
As long as the performer enjoys himself...
 
KS
From: erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bernard Shaw quotes (was: Brahms)
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:35:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxtI2y.3Ez
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Robert Parson writes
>  The only composer I can think of who did take a broad,
>  generous view of music even when it differed radically from his own is
>  Schumann. 
>

Aaron Copland was equally generous.  

Just like other groups of people, some composers like only their own style,  
some recognize the value of almost all styles.  Although I would be inclined to  
believe that an acceptance of a variety of styles would be a benefit to a  
composer, I've found no correlation between the views of a composer towards his  
peers and the quality of his own music.  Counterexamples, anyone?

Ed erwin@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu
From: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (haus der luge)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cage's 4'33"
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 18:32:44 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

danielh@sequent.com (Daniel Hobbs) writes:

> I've read so much on this newsgroup about Cage's infamous 4'33".
> Can anyone recommend any good recordings of it?  What, in the
> informed opinion of this net, is the _best_ recording?
> 
> Dan Hobbs
> danielh@sequent.com

4'33'' has been recorded on the CRAMPS label.  (CSLP 6101).
 
I find it rather odd that one would seek out a recording of this piece 
though.  It's rather easy to perform it yourself.
 
HausDerLuge (grinning from ear to ear)

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jloecher@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joanne W Loecher)
Subject: Kawai Grands
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:43:18 GMT

  I am interested in specific information about Kawai Grand pianos both
pros and cons.  Model numbers are important as well as personal
experiences with quality.  I am considering a purchase in the near fut
ture and like the tone of Kawais but do not know much about their
standards.  Thanks.
Jo
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Re: Advice on Prokofiev piano sonatas?
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:19:37 GMT

In article <92322.110947MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:
>I want some advice on Prokofiev piano sonatas on two fronts:1. Of all the sonatas, which are the 3 or 4 most popular or most worthy
>    of note in the repetoire?

My favorite is 7 followed by 6.

> 2. Which are the most respected/recommended recordings?
>
>Thanks, Mike Hughes

Don't know. Peter Donohoe maybe? I wish John Lill would record them...

David


--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Albuquerque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington)
Subject: Re: Why not a rec.music.contemp group?
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, New York's Computer Consulate. +1.718.729.5018
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:07:19 GMT

velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:

> Why not indeed? After all, early-musickers have been segregated 
> into rec.music.early.  Am I the only one who has little interest
> in contemporary music (say, post-1945), and who is at wits' end
> to devise an appropriate kill file? Next to /excalibur/j
> and /haikovsk/j, I already have /cage/j, /4'33''/j, /glass/j, /berio/j, 
> etc, but the kill file is getting long and involved, and netters are 
> always coming up with stealth subject lines.
> 
> No offense intended, this is a naive, non-partisan question.
> 
> -- 
> 
> 	Francois Velde
> 

Ahhh, the process of ghettoization continues.  Amazing, when we think
about how taste changes - (see Slonimsky).  This is truly pitiful!
Hey, how about a group called rec.music.classical.yuppie.wallpaper?
 
Can anyone say "What's a good recording of ____insert mis-spelled dead
composer name here ______insert name of composition here?"
 
Just joking...of course...no offense intended...just a naive ex-record
store employee/composer injecting needless bile...well...o.k...maybe
a little offense intended....
 
-- 
Jeff Harrington             PGP 2.0 Public Key Available via Email
idealord@dorsai.com         
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: Wagner - What Can We Say ?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 16:49:18 GMT

"Wagner is a beautiful sunset mistaken for a sunrise."

- Claude Debussy


Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Krips's Beethoven symphony cycle
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:47:00 GMT

Yesterday, I saw a Beethoven symphony cycle by Krips and the London SO in a
store for $12.88 new (some weird label).  I already have a few cycles and
don't feel that I need another one right away, but this price seems
ridiculously low, especially given recognizable performers.  I found
nothing in the Penguin or Stevenson guides last night.

Can anybody say anything about Krips's views on Beethoven?  I'll probably
buy it and find out for myself, but I thought I'd check the net wisdom
first.

-chris
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tuba
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:24:50
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu's message of 17 Nov 92 16:27:35 GMT

The auto writer for the Boston Globe (John R. White?) is apparently a
tuba player, so he usually judges trunk space by whether it can carry a
tuba.  Sometime last spring, he reviewed a van.  Apparently there was a
tuba convention or play-in or some such, and he used said van to
transport his friends and their tubas, and he went into a fair amount of
detail about the different kinds of tubas.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write lpf@uunet.uu.net
From: silk@ln
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: oboe music sought
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:36:11 GMT
Organization: Rutgers College, Rutgers University


     Most of the oboe concerti and such that I own are getting a bit stale 
to my own ear.  Any recommendations for something relatively difficult and 
preferably baroque (but not necessarily, in the case of an extraordinarily 
beautiful piece) I can look for?
     Thanks!

                                        |)
                                       (|)haron
                                       .|
 E-mail:  snookums@dorm.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: MOZART HELP PLEASE!
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:34:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.192149.15588@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>>>1. What year did Mozart die? 
>>1791
>I though the whole world knew this after last year...

Well, if William S. Gilbert were still alive, he might have said it
best this way:

	"What, everyone?"
	"Yes, everyone!"
	"What, everyone?"
	"Well...almost everyone!"

>Oh Gabe, you must be about the only  person here who doesn't know that
>the film "Elvira Madigan"  (1968, directed  by Bo  Widerberg) used the
>second movement  of Mozart's    C major  piano  concerto,  K.467  as a
>leitmotif. What a sheltered life you must have led!

Yeah, weep for me please.  I've been so busy going to/performing in/recording
concerts that I don't get all that much chance to rent 60's films anymore.
It's so pathetic.  Kick me, beat me, make me listen to "The Four Seasons."

>Now, shall   I  disillusion you  further  by revealing what  Rossini's
>William Tell overture used to be used for? Naaaah....

Who's overture?  Never heard of him.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Organization: Alex Technologies Ltd
Apparently-To: mail2news@gate.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:12:00 +0000

In article <By53q4.GEs@mach1.wlu.ca>, brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u) writes:
|> Well, I know one composer who is always being put down, but who I think is
|> actually not half-bad: PDQ Bach. :-)
|> 

The only thing I find bad about PDQ Bach is the quality of the recordings that
I have. NOT the performances which are jolly good. (How many records are
there now?)

	Jonathan.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler)
Subject: Re: Bassoonists?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:07:55 GMT

In <1992Nov16.180727.19973@sharebase.com> ray@thyme.sharebase.com (Ray Gebbie) writes:


>I would imagine that there are literally THOUSANDS of us bassoonists who read
>this newsgroup.  At least there seemed to be that many competing for openings
>in the performing groups when I was in college.

I play a little bit, but my wife was the real bassoonist.  She gave it
up after her master's degree and now teaches in the computer science 
department.

I think there was an audition for a seat in the St. Louis symphony
a while back.  Something like 600 people applied. (I may be exxagerating,
but it seemed like that many.)

Will
--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pkbockus@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Keith Bockus)
Subject: Re: Advice on Prokofiev piano sonatas?
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:29:27 GMT

Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:

> I want some advice on Prokofiev piano sonatas on two fronts:1. Of all the
> sonatas, which are the 3 or 4 most popular or most worthy
>     of note in the repetoire?
>  2. Which are the most respected/recommended recordings?
>
> Thanks, Mike Hughes


I'm very fond of Matti Raekallio on the Ondine label.
I believe that he has three disks with all of the sonatas.
Nissman on Newport is okay, but a bit bombastic at times.
One advantage of the Nissman set, however, is the analytical
indexing which is really helpful in understanding the music.

Keith Bockus
From: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: tonality and modern music
Date: 21 Nov 1992 01:06:54 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bassclar

Jack Campin, jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk, writes:
>Have you actually *heard* much of Stockhausen?  Case in point: "Stimmung"
>(which is about as tonal as music can possibly get).  If you can listen
>to that all the way through and *not* have the urge to sing that little
>"oo-ee-oo-ee-oo-ee-Yahweh" bit in the bath for the next week I would be
>very surprised.

About the only music MORE tonal than "Stimmung" would be some bare drone 
pieces by LaMonte Young!

I saw a live performance of "Stimmung" accompanying the Bejart Ballet
in the early 1970's.  What a night's entertainment!

--James Langdell       jamesc@eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystems     Mountain View, Calif.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Re: tangents Re: Considering 4'33''
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 02:43:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.224036.20793@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>What happens when your LP of 4'33" starts to skip?
>

Well then you get the extended remix version!

>After the performance, does one applaud with one hand?
>
>Roger
>

Presumably you are free to applaud DURING the performance?
I suppose that would be rather inconsiderate to the pianist who
has spent hours and hours practising this piece worrying about getting
every note right and whether his/her interpretation be kindly received
by the audience and critics.

Gee, if only all piano music was as easy as 4'33" ...

David




--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Albuquerque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: HDW@UCSVAX (H D WALDEN)
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Organization: UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS - AMHERST
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:53:38 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <By2qzq.LHD@fc.hp.com> rodean@fc.hp.com writes:

> Richard Smith (r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca) wrote:
> > It's a poll--who do you think is the worst famous composer of them all?
> > 
> > Let me start it off. I think it's Delius. Then again maybe it's Arthur 
> > Bliss.
> 
> I think you're dead wrong.  I like Delius, especially the Florida Suite.
> 
> What's this supposed to prove anyway?
> 
> --
> Bruce Rodean                          Hewlett-Packard Company
> rodean@fc.hp.com

> 


	I don't think you quite understand how EXTREMELY DIFFICULT composing is-
Have you ever tried it?--I think not.....otherwise you'd know that it's not the
easiest thing to do ( not even close )!!!!

						-dave
From: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (haus der luge)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 11:19:15 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:

> As long as people like haus der luge (not the lower cases!) spout on
> about 4'33" than people will get the goat up. Cage wrote a lot more
> important pieces that this old chestnut. I feel it's like typifying
> Elgar by P&C, or Holst by the Planets. 
> 
 
Dear Mr Pigott (note the upper cases!):
 
I apologize for offending your delicate sensibilities.  My purpose in 
posting the now infamous "Considering 4'33''" message was to clear up 
some misunderstandings I felt had developed from previous conversation 
about the work.
 
I do not recall ever stating that I felt one could fully understand the 
works of Cage through this piece or even that it was his best piece.  I 
do apologize if you, with your obviously superior intellect to mine, 
found that quality in my message.
 
By the way, your curious historical revisionist message on the creation 
of 4'33'' was interesting, but obviously far more profound than anything 
I could have said, as I could not completely come to understand your 
point you were trying to make from it.  A very odd way of discussing a 
work I must say.  Please Diarmuid, tell us the one about Mahler writing 
the fourth symphony while he was on a flying saucer, if you will.
 
Sincerely,
 
hausderluge (not the capitals!) [sic]
From: ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Date: 17 Nov 1992 10:22:22 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1D9cuB2w165w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> kevin@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott) writes:
> 
>Why would anyone issue a RECORDING of this?  It would seem that it should 
>exist in performance only.
> 
>As long as the performer enjoys himself...
> 
>KS

I saw this on CD once.  You'd have to be a fool to buy it. Or have money to
waste.

Adam

-- 
   /|\  /|~\   Adam M. Ronthal BR'94    |    ronthal-adam@yale.edu	
  /-| \/ |_/   P.O. Box 607 Yale Stn.   |    ronthal@minerva.cis.yale.edu
 /  |    | \   New Haven, CT   06520    |    ronthal@pop.cis.yale.edu

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Subject: Rachmaninoff
Organization: University of Western Ontario
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:05:08 GMT

ugh, ugh, ugh.

r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Western Business School  --  London, Ontario