From: carroll@gloin.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
Subject: Re: pounding the "10%" figure into the ground: Nature, 12/3/92
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:23:24 GMT

In article <13728@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
]In article <1992Dec23.104151.27790@news.cs.indiana.edu>, alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu (Amy Young Leith) writes:
]] In article <13710@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
]] ]FALSE.  Depending on which study you read, at least 21% of molestation
]] ]is by exclusive homosexuals, or about 30% is done by homosexuals or
]] ]bisexuals.
]] ]If you don't even have the basic facts right, there's no point
]] ]in arguing with you.
]] 
]] Yes, for this same reason I wonder why people bother responding to
]] you. 
]] 
]] Would you mind giving a clear and concise professional reference for
]] the claims you make above?  
]] 
]] alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu for personal mail
]
]I keep doing it, and keep getting told, "Do it again!"
]
]The last time.  By the way, the last reference is from a book
]that is the most pro-homosexual text I've found -- and even it
]admits that 20% of child molestation is done by homosexuals.
]
]I've posted fragments from an article written for _Redbook_
]by Gene G. Abel, M.D., a researcher in the field of child
]molestation.  I've attempted to get my hands on the scientific
]study done by Dr. Abel at Emory University, but all I can get
]are references to it.  So we must again stick to the popular
]account that Abel and Harlow wrote:
]
]    I've just completed an eight-year national study on child 
]    molesters for the Antisocial and Violent Behavior Branch 
]    of the National Institute of Mental Health.  The data I've 
]    collected from interviews with, and physiologic laboratory 
]    assessments of, 403 molesters is [sic] now being analyzed by 
]    the Department of Psychiatry at Emory University in Atlanta.  
]    This new information, collected with the help of five of my 
]    colleagues in four different cities, reveals that men who 
]    assault children have a surprisingly high number of victims.  
]    The 403 molesters we evaluated had molested more than
]    67,000 children.
]
]    But we were most surprised by the high number of boys who 
]    were victimized.  When we looked at the total number of 
]    children who were molested--including those who were not 
]    touched but were the object of such offenses as indecent
]    exposure and window peeping--we found what we expected to find:  
]    Little girls are molested most often.  However, when we looked 
]    at only the more serious offenses--ones in which the child is 
]    touched--we found that 63 percent of the children who are 
]    sexually assaulted are little boys.  And not only do molesters 
]    assault boys more often than they assault girls, but men
]    who molest boys also have an astonishingly higher number of 
]    victims--an average of 282 victims compared to an average of 23 
]    victims among men who assault girls.
]    
]    ...
]
]    It's often difficult to spot the man who might possibly molest 
]    our children because we expect a molester to be a man who 
]    displays many antisocial behaviors; and in the case of a 
]    molester whose victims are little boys, we expect him to be 
]    homosexual.  But in our study, we found that most men who 
]    molest little boys are not gay.  Only 21 percent of the
]    child molesters we studied who assault little boys were 
]    exclusively homosexual.  Nearly 80 percent of the men who 
]    molested little boys were heterosexual or bisexual, and most 
]    of these men were married and had children of their own.
]    [Gene G. Abel, M.D., with Nora Harlow, "The Child Abuser:
]    How can you spot him?", _Redbook_, August, 1987, 98 --
]    thoughtfully provided to me by Brian Evans (bevans@carina.unm.edu),
]    who I suspect now regrets having provided me such a powerful
]    piece of ammunition]
]

First of all: you'll notice that this evidence is strongly counter to
Clayton claims. Clayton claims that we can effectively minimize the
risk of child molestations by discriminating against homosexuals. He
then, in supposed defense of this position, quotes a source that says
"It's often difficult to stop the man who might molest our children",
and goes on to show that the vast majority of molesters are people who
are not openly homosexual.

Further, if you read closely, you'll notice that the quoted study has
exactly 3 classifications for the sexuality of the molesters: hetero-,
bi-, and homo- sexual. This ignores the class of *fixated* molesters,
which are those with no adult sexuality. By ignoring this class of
individuals, who are  a significant presence in the group of child
molesters, all of these percentages are called into question.

]But let's give the benefit of the doubt, and assume that nearly 
]all of these "heterosexual" men having sex with boys of the same 
]sex really aren't bisexuals.  Even the 21% that are exclusively 
]homosexual, multiplied by the 63% of the victims that were boys, 
]means that 13% of the MOLESTERS are exclusively homosexuals, and
]the bisexuals doing this are going to be completely ignored.

This is clearly bogus mathematics.

Earlier in the quote, it is mentioned that molesters typically have
many victims. The percentage of male victims and the percentage of
male molesters are not actually related in the above paragraph.

]Even then, because 4% or less of males are homosexual OR bisexual,
]this means that homosexuals are AT LEAST three times their numbers in
]the general population.  If we we could include bisexual molesters 
](which for some odd reason, were lumped with heterosexuals, contrary 
]to common usage), the disproportion of homosexuals and bisexuals 
]would of course be much higher.

As has been often repeated on the net, there is *no* validity to the
assumption that 4% OR LESS of males are homo- or bi- sexual. Clayton
creates these numbers using the studies published in nature magazine, which
for reasons clearly stated in numerous other posts, are a LOWER BOUND. The
number of homo- and bi- sexuals are NOT LESS THAN 4%. Clayton is deliberately
misusing statistics again.

And he is *still* ignoring fixated pedophiles, which make up *some*
portion of the group of molesters. By pretending that all molesters
are either bi-, homo-, or hetero- sexual, he ignores what is certainly
a significant portion of molesters, and bundles them into other
classes, where they do not belong, thus calling into question ANY
conclusion that he draws.

]Hyde's book tells us, "Actually, most child molesting is done by
]heterosexual men to little girls; 80 percent of child molesting
]is in that category, and only 20 percent is homosexual (McCaghy,
]1971)."[Hyde, 422]  It seems rather odd that Hyde neglects to cite
]any of the more recent works on the subject, most of which indicate
]more homosexual molestation, but even using 20%, this shows that
]homosexuals are at least five times overrepresented among 
]molesters.

Clayton again tries to  misuse the information.

The majority of molestERS are adult men molesting little girls. But
the majority of molestATION is adult men molesting little boys. As has
often been mentioned previously, fixated pedophiles tend to molest
enourmous numbers of victims which are usually little boys, whereas
the heterosexual men who molest little girls usually have fewer
victims.

	<MC>


-- 
|| Mark Craig Carroll: <MC>     || "I'm not dumb, 
|| Univ of Delaware, Dept of CIS||  I just have a command of thoroughly 
|| Grad Student/Labstaff Hacker ||  useless information."
|| carroll@udel.edu             || 	-Calvin
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:65263 soc.motss:53655 alt.sex:40189