HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 01:27:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.215611.7807@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In <EGGERTJ.93Jan16005714@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>>In article <1993Jan14.224245.17021@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>>   There are plenty of Arab murderers in Israel who have been tried (in
>>>   accordance with "international law and common morals"), convicted and
>>>   imprisoned.  You certainly sound like you're now saying that you
>>>   would've preferred executing the guilty instead of expelling them.
>>>   How revealing! 

>>I wasn't aware, and no one has proven, that any of those expelled are
>>guilty of any crime.  But assuming that some were guilty of a capital
>>offense, then yes.  I would rather have murderers and terrorists
>>executed rather than released to pursue further murder and terror.
>>How about you?  Apparently not.

>Don't be absurd.  Israel has been lambasted for expelling these guys.
>Can you imagine what would happen if Israel started executing people
>at the rate commonly accepted in the USA or in any of the Arab states?

No.  Israel has been lambasted for expelling these guys without a trial.

>Criticism of Israel from the USA and the Arab states for such
>incredibly lenient punishments is just plain hypocritical.

Israel is being criticized for ignoring basic liberties like due process,
not for being too lenient.

>>>   ...only in your book.  You would've preferred that Israel try, convict
>>>   and execute the bastards.  Even this would've been more due process
>>>   than is customarily afforded the accused in Arab states.  But
>>>   expulsion - my how evil!  Those naughty, awful Israelis!  When are
>>>   they going to join the civilized world and just execute their
>>>   criminals?  Thanks, Jim, but no thanks.

>>I guess you don't understand why deportation of criminals is frowned
>>on in civilized areas of the world.  If the deportees are real
>>criminals, then the receiving country rarely wants them.  If they are
>>merely political opponents or scapegoats, then the deportation is
>>reprehensible, and not to be tolerated.

>You are laboring under a cultural mis-understanding.  Sure, in Israel
>these people are criminals, terrorists and murderers.  In the Arab
>states, they are considered heroes.  Saddam is one of the latest
>examples of this mentality.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26044 soc.culture.greek:12385
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish,soc.rights.human
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Only 1/64th Armenian? Traditional Armenian Nazism and Racism.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 21:22:06 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan28.020535.10829@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:

>	There is a Russian saying: tsipliat po oseni schitayut.
>(count the chicks in autumn). I recently got a message from home
>with a modification of this Russian saying: Tsipliat po oseni schitayut,
>A Armian po vesne. (count the chicks in autumn, and count the Armenians
>in spring).
>	These folks are incredible. Under these conditions they are still
>joking and making up funny stories about themselves. 

I tend to agree here.

I must congratulate your analytical and excellent
reportage about  Diana. From  the writings  of tye
biographers  you  quoted,  I can  perceive,  maybe
chauvinistically,  the  remnants of  her  Armenian
genes. Even  though she  is only  1/64th Armenian,
she   seems   to   have   many   of   the   strong
characteristics  of Armenian  women. Her  Armenian
ancestry is  traced to Eliza Kewark  (an Armenian
from  India), who  married  the Scottish  merchant
Thedore Forbes.  From the union was  born Kathleen
Scott  Forbes,  who  married  James  Crombie  from
Aberdeen. They  had a  daughter Jane,  who married
David  Littlejohn.  Their  daughter  Ruth  married
William Gill. Ruth Silvia Gill, the grandmother of
Lady  Diana,   married  Lord  Fermoy,   and  their
daughter, Frances  Ruth Burke Roache,  married the
eight Earl of Spencer, who  was the father of Lady
Diana. It is noteworthy  that Eliza Kewark was also
referred  to as  Mrs. Forbesian  (a characteristic
Armenian  surname  ending).  An  Armenian-Scottish
gene mix is dynamite.

Levon K. Topuzian
Assistant Professor
Northwestern University
Skoie, Illinois.

TIME, December 21, 1992 'Letters'


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26312 soc.history:10992 soc.culture.turkish:15055
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Sergei Borodin, genius or...
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:36:40 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1jmptbINN4qj@network.ucsd.edu> dharkins@papillon.ucsd.edu (Dan Harkins) writes:

>Yet for some reason, Mr. Besdelnik--oops-- Borodin can post articles like
><105529@netnews.upenn.edu> and <105899@netnews.upenn.edu> which too include
>words like "Argic" and too generate multi-line responses. Just what gives here?
>I can take critisism, but not from hypocrites. 

And I've a heightened respect for what's going on in the nooks and crannies 
of his very own room. It isn't dirt. It's cosmic compost. In a speech 
addressed to the Armenian Congress in Petersburg on May 24, Tchalkouchian 
emphasized the commitment of the Armenians to the Allied cause:

"...The French charmingly call us 'our little allies'. It may be that we
 have made a small contribution to the World War. There is no doubt that 
 our status is that of a 'great ally'. The whole of the Armenian nation
 was involved in the war... right from the start, our sympathy was completely
 for the Allied Powers. Among these, Russia, to whom Armenians had been 
 loyal throughout history, came first and foremost."

"The Armenians greeted the Russians with ringing bells and with their 
 priests dressed in their ceremonial robes. In this war, too, the Armenian
 people took their place beside the Russians...The war broke out volunteers
 came from everywhere, from Armenia in Eastern Anatolia, from Egypt under
 Turkish rule, from the non-Russian areas of Rumania; all these people who
 were Ottoman subjects, familiar with Anatolia, gathered together and put
 themselves at the service of the Russian Empire." 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26335 talk.politics.soviet:10783 soc.culture.europe:11463 soc.culture.greek:12615 soc.history:11014 soc.culture.turkish:15106
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Expelled Palestinians
Date: 27 Jan 1993 02:02:26 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Where was the international outcry when hundreds of thousands of 
Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait after the US-Iraq war?  I
am not arguing that Israel's expulsion was right but I don't think
that the outrage expressed is proportionate.  My apologies if this
point has been raised before.

		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26365 talk.politics.soviet:10792
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Recalling in sorrow the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslims.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:11:58 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan23.013750.16518@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

>No foul mudlu ratf**k followup followed. #*)

See you make a fool of yourself in the current discussion. Now this
is of some significance.

Source: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
        Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
        New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.


Muslim population losses (McCarthy's Tables 7.10 and 7.11)

Province	Estimated	Estimated 	Proportion
		1912 pop. 	pop. loss	lost
				1912-1922
---------       ----------     ----------       ----------
Adana		   573,256	 42,511		    7%
Ankara		 1,263,199	104,823		    8%
Aydin		 1,734,179	333,230		   19%
Biga		   165,508	 24,793		   15%
Bitlis		   408,703	169,748		   42%
Diyarbakir	   598,985	158,043		   26%
Erzurum		   804,388	248,695		   31%
Haleb		   562,197	 50,838		    9%
Huedavendigar	 1,598,583	160,612		   10%
Izmit		   271,751	 12,039		    4%
Kastamonu	 1,305,279	224,679		   17%
Konya		 1,542,331	418,442		   27%
Mamuretuelaziz	   564,164	 89,310		   16%
Sivas		 1,196,300	180,413		   15%
Trabon		 1,178,655	 49,907		    4%
Van		   313,322	194,167		   62%

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:35:16 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corp., Hopkinton Mass.

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23047@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>     This theme was further elaborated by Jabotinsky:

>     "The source of national feeling ... lies in a man's blood
>     ... in his racio-physico type and in that alone.... A man's
>     spiritual outlook is primarily determined by his physical
>     structure.  For that reason we do not believe in spiritual
>     assimilation.  It is inconceivable, from the physical point
>     of view, that a Jew born to a family of pure Jewish blood
>     can become adapted to the spiritual outlook of a German or a
>     Frenchman.  He may be wholly imbued with that German fluid,
>     but the nucleus of his spiritual structure will always
>     remain Jewish."

>     The adoption of chauvinist doctrines of racial purity and
>     the logic of the blood were not confined to Jabotinsky or to
>     the revisionists.  The liberal philosopher, Martin Buber,
>     located his Zionism equally within the framework of European
>     racist doctrine:

>     "The deepest layers of our being are determined by blood;
>     our innermost thinking and our will are colored by it."

>Now, I can fully understand why a few emotional pro-Israelists
>here have to drown out any careful consideration of texts like
>these with shouts of "anti-Semitism." What else do they have to
>fall back on?

I am neither pro-Israeli nor am I a particular fan of Jabotinsky, but
this comment is somewhat unfair.  Racialism was part of a lot of
progressive thinking in the late 19th through early 20th centuries.

Jabotinsky can be fairly reasonably located in the Anglophilic liberal
democratic secular nationalist tradition of that period.  In Eastern
European politics he probably comes closest to Masaryk or Benes of
Czechoslovakia.

Anyway, repugnant though Jabotinsky's and Buber's comments might be to
an adherent of the heritage of the Anglo-French Enlightenment like me,
there is nothing which reasonably can be considered chauvinistic in
either comment.  To make such a claim shows a lack of textual
analytical reasoning ability or a prejudiced belief system which
causes McGuire to see things which are not there.
-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ethnic jews
Date: 22 Jan 1993 10:37:38 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: talk
Reply-To: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23051@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
|> to: Josh Backon
|> 
|> > Would you agree with me, Josh, that both Israel and Judaism seem
|> > to be organized primarily around the agenda and interests of
|> > ethnic Jews,
|> 
|>  JB> What the hell are "ethnic" Jews ?  Checking HLA antigens ??
|>  JB> Mcguire, what did you major in: physical anthropology ??
|>  JB> RASSENGESETZE ??
|> 
|> Ethnic Jews would be Jews who are Jews by reason of their
|> ethnicity rather than religion.
|> 
|> For instance, David Ben-Gurion was an atheist. If he wasn't an
|> ethnic Jew, what was he? He certainly wasn't a Jew in the
|> religious sense.
|> 
|> Or take Soviet Jews: most of them have been atheists for
|> generations. Most of them have had no contact with Jewish culture
|> for generations. And yet Israel still defines them as Jews on the
|> basis of their bloodlines. It seems fair to refer to Soviet Jews
|> as ethnic Jews. If not, why not?

What do you think of countries with a state church?
In Sweden most kids are 'born christian' and unless you explicitly
_leave_ the church you pay tax to it. Many do, in order to have a
'real' church wedding, but that's about it. Are they christian?
Are swedes to be regarded as an genetic ethnic group, because of
that? An american with no contact with swedish culture 'comes back', 
and will be regarded by many as swedish, if he have an ancestor who
emigrated.. Big difference. Why is it that you single out Jews in this
case and ignore that this is a fairly common phenomenon?


--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26040 talk.politics.soviet:10650
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Argic is right
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 21:50:08 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan21.061657.2855@samba.oit.unc.edu> alewis@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Andrew Lewis) writes:

>> Argic is right.

>About what, pray tell?  Or are you just trying to get the program to quote

Let us examine it - shall we? Numerous articles in major newspapers (London 
Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence 
of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur 
Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this 
issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held
democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged
to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history.
Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call 'crisis
control' or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks
on the larger Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized
collaboration as deplorable but insignificant.[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), 'The Plotters,'
    E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.


 Source: "Mitteilungsblatt, Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6"

 Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately 
 forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi 
 collaboration.

 A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
 is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The 
 magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany
 and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the
 magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation,
 is attention-getting.

 This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically
 important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be
 an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. Every issue embroiders
 the themes of enmity towards Turkey and towards Turks.

 In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and certain
 political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to them. They 
 occupied positions in public service and were partners in Nazi practices.
 The whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered 
 "Aryan" and what befell them.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Boycotting American Cars
Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:55:46 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.think.com
Keywords: Boycott, Cars

In article <C1H6Lu.D9E@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, khater@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Issam Abu-Khater) writes:
|> > 
|> > This is not a new approach to register your protest. To this day, most 
|> > Japanese don't buy American cars because they still remember Heroshima and
|> > most Jews don't buy German cars because they still remember the Holocaust. 

While you have a definite right to boycott as a consumer, the above
is misleading.  The reason most Japanese do not buy American cars
has more to do with the quality/value issue and gov't policy protecting
Japanese trade than with Hiroshima.  As to the Jews not buying
German cars, while that is true for some, you might be surprised to know
that nearly 1 out of 20 cars on the road in Israel, is german made.
Amazing when you take into account the price of a german made car
vs. a japanese import.

-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26058 talk.politics.misc:69158
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc
Subject: (Martillo) Re: BUSH BOMBS ISLAMIC CONFERENCE
Date: 22 Jan 1993 05:31:30 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan20.124745.28741@nighthawk.clearpoint.com> martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami) writes:
>In article <1483500322@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>You should say mindless moron.
>Who cares?  The UN is only important as a tool for the achievement
>of US policy.
>Again who cares?
>No.
>Do you seriously think the issue is tortes?  How dumb can one person
>be?
>collateral damage.  By your ignorantly stupid logic, the US could not
>What a stupid question?  Holding war crimes tribunals is the
>privilege of the victor.
>Get a brain.
>>Elias
>Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami


Martillo, you are an ASSHOLE.  Why in hell did you begin insulting
the man with the above ruthless idiotic statements while
he's just asking questions in order to make a point.   
You need to just shut up or put up instead of just insulting people,
that's all you're good at.  Damn you, just shut up, what
an idiot you are.

jle
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: (Salman Rushdi again) Re: islam & ethnicity
Date: 27 Jan 93 02:43:21 GMT
Organization: ECE - Concordia University

In article <123530001@hpindda.cup.hp.com> seshadri@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) writes:
>
>-Waleed Muhanna
>
>	Waleed, I have a question for you ..
>
>	If what you say is true, why is Salman Rushdie accused of
>	apostasy ? As for as I know, he never proclaimed that he
>	was a Muslim, yet he is being accused of abandoning it 
>	simply because he was born in a Muslim family. What gives ?
>
I am not Waleed, but here is my opinion:
1)Salaman Rushdi is not an apostat, he is one British atheist among millions.
2)Even if he was, Nobody has the right to kill him if he did not
kill anybody. I know that many Muslim scholars think otherwise, though.
3)Khomeiny's "sentence" is his opinion, he gave his opinion for
political reasons (otherwise why did he wait until protests about the book
in Pakistan resulted in six deaths, which is 8 months after the book was
published)
4)The ransom for Rushdi's life was a scandal. It was a dirty political game.
5)If Rushdi was killed, I would not feel happier, nor would I feel 
sorry for him, Actually, he would have deserved it, he did it for money,
and MO-Money can kill him.



>						Raghu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26198 soc.culture.greek:12478 alt.news.macedonia:180