Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
From: galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 22:53:55 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

> In article <y2kNVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) 
> >mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
> 
> >> In article <RZuaVB3w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gros
> >> >mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
> 
> >> >> Let me point you to the examples of Catholics, Orientals, Jews,
> >> >> Italians, and Irish.  All of these groups once faced prejudice in the U
> >> >> Does anyone remember the line from Blazing Saddles when the railroad
> >> >> workers want to live in the town?  "We'll take the niggers and the
> >> >> chinks but no deal on the Micks."  Also, unless you are a historical
> >> >> ignoramus, you are aware of the anti-Catholic riots in the 1800s.
> 
> >> >> Today, although there are still problems, all five of these groups are
> >> >> pretty much accepted into American society.  They intermarry with each
> >> >> other and with the original WASPs.  No one seriously claims that they
> >> >> need affirmative action or much in the way of special protection.
> 
> >> >> This was all done without Catholic Student Unions, Oriental History
> >> >> classes, affirmative action for Jews, anti-discrimmination laws for
> >> >> Italians, or anti-hate crime laws for the Irish.  And it has taken.
> 
> >> >I wonder why whites persist in lumping together every ethnic or religious
> >> >minority in the country and talking about their experiences as if they 
> >> >were all alike?
> 
> >> I challenge you to find anyone who does this.
> 
> >Challenge accepted. Answer: Look in the mirror and at your own original
> >post: "...Catholics, Orientals, Jews, Italians and Irish. All of these 
> >groups once faced prejudice in the US."
> 
> Do you deny that statement?  If so you are totally ignorant of
> American history.  This also does not lump all these groups together
> and claim that their experiences were all alike.  The differences
> range from the trivial (Orientals tended to settle in the West -
> California and Hawaii whereas the other groups tended to settle in the
> Northeast) to significant (Orientals were a racial minority.
> Catholics were a religious minority.  Italians and Irish were ethnic
> minorities who also belonged to a religious minority.  Jews were both
> a religious and an ethnic minority.)
> 
> >> What you will find is people who compare different religious and
> >> ethnic minorities and their experiences in order to draw more general
> >> conclusions and make judgments about appropriate courses of action for
> >> the future.
> 
> >> After all, if you aren't basing your conclusions about what ought to
> >> be done on past human experience what are you basing it on?
> 
> >> >Catholics, Asians, Italians, Irish, Jews have all encountered their hare 
> >> >of problems in the great American "melting pot," Michael, but please 
> >> >don't try to sell me on the idea that all their experiences were equal in
> >> >scope or degree.
> 
> >> I never did.
> 
> >See above...again.
> 
> I challenge you to find a place where I say that their experiences
> were equal in scope or degree.  I did not and you are lying if you say
> I did.
> 
> >> >And for God's sake, don't insult people's intelligence 
> >> >by trying to suggest that the oppressive legacy of ANY of them was the 
> >> >same as ours, or even all that similar. 
> 
> >> The same?  Of course not.  Similar?  Definitely.  Moreover, the
> >> situations they had to deal with, although very different from that of
> >> Blacks 150 years ago, bears great similarities to the problems Blacks
> >> faced from WWI or so until today.
> 
> >Such as?
> 
> Discrimminatory laws.  Widespread discrimmination by private citizens
> and corporations.  A belief by members of the majority that members of
> these minorities were intellectually inferior and inherently violent
> and criminal.  Strong opposition by the majority to intermarriage.
> Violent attacks by members of the majority with little or no police
> response.
> 
> Good enough?
> 
> >> >The history says otherwise.
> 
> >What you believe is your problem. I know about the anti-Catholic riots of 
> >the 1800s. I also know that the Ku Klux Klan originally included 
> >Catholics on their hate list -- although when it came to lynching, they 
> >usually showed a decided preference for dark meat...
> 
> Fair enough.  Although the Know-Nothings were a lot more significant
> than the KKK as far as Catholics were concerned.  After all, when's
> the last time we had an anti-Black riot by members of the majority?
> (In other words, DC doesn't count.)
> 
> So explain why you disagree with me.
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.


Michael:

Why I disagree with you? Let me count the ways...

1) "...Catholics, Orientals, Jews, Italians and Irish. All of these 
groups once faced prejudice in the U.S." Your words, I believe. 
 a) You deny lumping these groups together in terms of their experience,
   ...and then you go ahead and do it, repeatedly. But if you haven't
   recognized that by this time, you're not likely to recognize it now,
   so don't worry about it.
 b) I know more than a few Asians and Jews who would probably ask you 
    rather pointedly "where you do get this "once FACED prejudice in the 
    U.S., white boy?" As if this were all a thing of the past.  Maybe it
    is where you live, but not around here.

2) In your workplace or your academic environment, do you ever look 
around you and feel isolated, cut off from the mainstream, and otherwise 
very much alone? If you do, you *might* be able to understand some of the 
motivation behind the formation of Black Student Unions. If you don,'t, 
you don't.
   How well do you know your own family? How far back can you trace it? 
Do you know how you came to have the surname that you have? Do you have 
an understanding of your history, your heritage? How far back? And do you 
understand how all or any of that plays a role in the present? If you 
know all of that, or were taught all of that early on, either at school 
or on your mother's knee, then maybe you have no need to pursue this kind 
of knowledge today. If so, congratulations.  I and my breathren do not, 
for the most part, share your good fortune, which is why we need to learn 
and research these things for ourselves at this late date. If you can 
understand that, fine. If you can't, you can't.

3) My situation is not the same as that of an Asian, a Catholic, an 
Italian, an Irishman, a Jew. Nor are any of theirs the same as anyone 
else's. When you lump everyone together in one breath and say: "They all 
faced prjudice but they made it without whining; why can't you?" Whether 
you realize it or not, you are doing exactly what you've been denying you 
were doing.
  Again, I don't expect you to understand that; you haven't been able to 
so far. I am prepared to write it off as an irreconcilable difference.
G.

PS: the last official anti-black majority riots were Detroit 1943 and 
Selma, AL 1962.
cheers

--
Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-2333 (fax)
San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)
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