HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 06:45:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.204635.24901@cypress.com> rbv@cypress.com writes:
>genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) said:
>
>Thus spake rbv@cypress.com:
>	>1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased
>	>2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules
>
>In my ignorance I parsed the word "or" in the original description as a
>conjunction.  This answers your question about the griffins.  Here is the
>description verbatim:
>
>	Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased or, a
>	fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules.

OK. Let's have another try.

Blue shield (Azure).

Three off-torn griffins' heads (a griffin is a mythical beas, a cross-breed
between a lion and an eagle; all Dungeons & Dragons players know what it looks
like: a griffin's head would look like an eagle head with ears), gold (Or)
two on the top of the shield, one in the bottom, looking at left.

A fess (horizontal bar or stripe through the shield) engrailed (its outlines
being carved to resemble wawe pattern), gold (Or) between the griffins' heads.

In the middle of the fess, a heraldic lily flower (Fleur-de-lis), the French
lily "tincture of the first", the firstly-mentioned color, which is blue (Az.)

On each side of the lily flower on the same fess, a red (Gules) rose.

I would interprete your arms like that. I may have made a mistake, since
i did the interpretation by heart without consulting literary refereence.




  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:30:11 GMT

In article <BuBCr7.41H@apollo.hp.com> betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.121729.13074@relay.nswc.navy.mil> rweisbe@starfleet.nswc.navy.mil (Bob Weisbeck) writes:
>[story of three alternate "official" family crests deleted]
>>   I'm wondering if other areas around the country have these computerized 
>>family
>>crest businesses and where they get their information from.  And how can 
>>someone be certain that their family crest is authentic? 
>                                                           
>P.S.  The historical solution for rich Americans who wanted to be
>armigerous was to find a British ancestor, then to arrange for
>that ancestor *and all his descendants* to be granted a coat of
>arms.  The British College of Arms finally banned this practice, 
>saying roughly "If the American government wants its nationals
>to bear heraldic achievements, it can set up its own College
>to oversee them."  So far, Congress hasn't obliged.

And I think the U.S. Constitution would prohibit it anyway: we're a tyrant-
hating republic, remember?

>
>P.P.S.  Technically, only the eldest surviving son of the  first son
>of the first son... has the right to bear the family coat of arms as
>is;  everybody else adds little dingies called "marks of cadence" to
>demonstrate that they're not the head of the family.

That's a pretty rigorous system, followed by royal and princely families,
and more commonly in England, but not observed everywhere.  At least in
France, the coats of arms can be born by all male members: otherwise,
you'd get tens of thousands of blazons within a few generations, and it would
defeat the purpoose.

The title, on the other hand (earl, duke,...) can only be born by one
member at a time: but that is distinct from the coat of arms. Correct me
if I'm wrong.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Reply-To: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:52:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.214230.29631@nas.nasa.gov>,
cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano) writes:

> I once heard, long ago, that the position of the helm on the Coat of Arms
> notes something about the person who received those arms. If the helm is
> facing forward, then the arms belong to a person from Royal blood. If the
> helm is facing to the left (dexter), the arms belong to a person of
> legitmate blood of a noble. If the helm is facing right (sinister), the
> arms belong to a person of illegitmate blood of a noble.

> Can anyone confirm or deny this?

	For most of history, this was not true.  In the middle ages, helmets
were always drawn facing to the dexter, no matter what the rank or
status of the individual might be.  As the crests that were depicted on
helmets became more elaborate, helmets were sometimes drawn facing
forward so that the crests could be more attractively displayed.
	Victorian heraldic writers created a great deal of the "significance"
of a coat of arms from whole cloth.  Some of it caught on, and some of
it didn't--but very little of it was used before the 18th century.

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: zippy@cs.mcgill.ca (Fotis XIPOLITAKIS)
Subject: Re: Misc.
Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:42:09 GMT

In article <BuBzuF.H77@news.cso.uiuc.edu> schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf) writes:
>Boy, was *I* a happy person when I met and married my now hubby!
>His family has a shield which has been passed down for generation
>upon generation (most of them are still in Switzerland). This family
>is VERY proud of their shield and nearly every one of them has had
>a stained glass window made of it. Peter said once while they were 
>walking around St. Gallen (Switzerland) they found it on top of one
>of the buildings there with a date in the late 1400's...pretty neat. 
>
>I've forgotten the proper terms, but it's three black hunting horns
>on a yellow shield. They run in a straight line down the middle of it.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Kay Schlumpf     University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,  MRLCFC


	Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the device used by one of
	the Cantons in Switzerland...

	About the books you mentioned in French could you please post or
	mail me a refrence to them... Thank-you..


zippy@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:11:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.130659.29217@maths.tcd.ie>, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) writes:

> 	Oh, yes. Pre-Norman it was generally fought over. After surrender &
> regrant it was largely nominal and passed between the O'Neills and the
> O'Donnells. After the full english system was instituted here it became a
> herititary title. The male line failed (in 1964?) which switched it to the
> nearest female relative. It is now held by the O'Connor-Don family.

Yeah, but it still REALLY belongs to we O'Neills!!!

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
Lamh Dearg Eirrean!
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Need help with family crest
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:59:48 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake hamm@weejordy.physics.mun.ca (Craig Hamm):
>
>	I have the 'supposed' emblem of the 'craig' name, but am not
>	sure if it is the real one.  I would also like to verify the 
>	Craig tartan, and get any other history as well.

Several people have already commented on the misconceptions involved in
talking about the "emblem of the 'craig' name", but you might also be
interested to know that the alleged association between particular tartans
and particular families is much more tenuous, and much later historically,
than is usually supposed.

>	Suggestions for source material welcomed!

Stephen Friar's "A Dictionary of Heraldry" makes a fine, easily-accessible
introduction to the history, conventions, and pernicious myths of heraldry.
It's one of the few dictionaries I know that makes entertaining bedtime
reading.


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Summary: recycled arms
Keywords: White Cross International 
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:45:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.193025.22699@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

  For a very specific example, I have
>recently barely begun to study the history of the County of Savoy.
>How is it that the arms of the Count of Savoy are now the Arms of
>Switzerland?  I don't know.

That's independent heraldic jurisdictions for you. Conflict checking for
foreign arms? Why bother? :-) 

The Counts of Savoy bore Gules a cross argent. (A white cross on a red field)
The House of Savoy later became Kings of Italy, with these same arms.

Incidentally, these same arms are borne by the City of Wien(Vienna), Austria,
and the City of Tallinn, Estonia. This is also the flag of Denmark. The Knights
of Malta have also used this as a flag. Of these, at least the Danish flag has
nothing whatsoever to do with Savoy, as it was given directly from Heaven to
King Valdemar when he was on a crusade against the Estonians. At least,
according to the press release.

Btw, isn't Switzerland Gules a cross couped argent? (with short limbs)

Share and enjoy,
tsahib.



-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:30:25 GMT

Anders makes a good point.  Perhaps Alan was a little too
focussed on medieval heraldry (which is an interest we both
share) even when trying to avoid the bias.

I would hope that rec.heraldry would cover all sorts of symbolism,
including Anders' interest in municipal and political heraldry.

Contrary to many of my SCA friends expectations, my first encounter
with Heraldry was through a roomate, who was a specialist in flags,
as well as having a general interest in heraldry. In fact, Jim had
a special interest in flags of "defunct nations and groups".  Sadly,
he died some years ago.  I have no doubt that he would be tickled pink
to be forced to remove so many flags from his "defunct list" as the
breakup of the Soviet Union would now require.

I, myself, am an SCA medieval herald, and have little knowledge of
political and state heraldry.  Please, Anders, share what you know
(or wish to know) with us.  For a very specific example, I have
recently barely begun to study the history of the County of Savoy.
How is it that the arms of the Count of Savoy are now the Arms of
Switzerland?  I don't know.

And, as an amusement for the rest of you, I'll tell a pleasant story on
my old departed friend.  Jim had quite the eye for detail, and as we
were grocery shopping one day, he reached over, and grabbed a jar of
Romanoff brand Caviar.  I was stunned (we were both working in McDonalds
at the time, and caviar was not on our grocery list).  "I wonder if they
know they are displaying the Hapsburg Eagle, and not the Romanoff one"
said Jim.

He wrote them a lovely letter, detailing what little he knew about the
Romanoff's and the Hapsburgs, and the heraldry of each.  Imagine our
surprise when a small box with about 10 jars of Romanoff Caviar arrived,
as a thank you!  Jim was as generous as he was detail-oriented, so
we had quite the party with our friends, on a minumum wage budget.

If you ever need free caviar, try this trick...

	schuldy (In the SCA, Tibor)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: jogulin@pub_one.fia.dmg.ml.com (Joseph Ogulin)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: The Rift from Here to There
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:37:32 GMT

In article <BuBCr7.41H@apollo.hp.com>, betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:
|> *male line:  Okay, there are odd exceptions: a woman can be what is
|> known as "the heraldic heiress" in cases where the senior male has
|> only daughters.

It works like this (and I'll use me as an example):

	My great-grandfather, Johann Ogulin, had 3 daughters.  The middle
one (I don't recall her name) had a son, Eduard.  Five years later (or
thereabout), the eldest daughter, Josefine (my grandmother), had a son, Josef.
Assuming that my current knowledge of all people with my last name is correct,
my father becomes the bearer of the coat of arms, as he is the eldest son of
the eldest daughter of the previous bearer.  This makes me the heir, as I am
the older of two sons.

What it looks like?  Well, I don't know exactly how true it is (I ordered it
from a company that does research on the origins of family names) and the
description I received was as follows:
	Per fess, in chief azure, an eagle or issuing from the partition.
	In base gules, tierced in mantle, three lozenges argent.
And the crest:
	Four ostrich plumes:  vert, argent, azure, gules

I'd like to get in touch with the college of heraldry in England and verify
if this is a true coat-of-arms, etc.  If anyone can post an address (or e-mail
it), please do.  Our best guess is that it was issued by the Hapsburg family,
as it deals with Austria and/or Croatia before WWI.

-- 
==> "You never f**king know the answer when it's important." --The Doctor <==
Joe Ogulin

jogulin@camelot.fia.dmg.ml.com		joe@monroe.pilot.dmg.ml.com
jogulin@apollo.stevens-tech.edu		gcs_jogulin@stevens.bitnet

Disclaimer:  The above article is solely my opinion and does not necessar-
ily reflect that of my employer.  The content is my responsibility alone.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:45:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

>In article <crystal.716227601@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>>
>>Odd question, I know...but I am a collector of domestic cat items, and it
>>was suggested to me that there may be some in crests.  (Not tigers or lions
>>rampant and sinister, but 'lil ol' home-loving pussy cats)  
>>
>>Is there such a beast in heraldry?

You bet.  In modern heraldry, the late C.P. Snow, when made a life peer,
included a Siamese cat in his coat of arms.  I think it was one of the supporters,
but I don't remember clearly.

(By the way, I'm trying to track down the heraldry book that explained
the British ruling on granting arms to Americans; I'll bring it in
when I find it.)

-- 
Betsy Hanes Perry   (note P in userid)     betsyp@apollo.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Company
"It seems to us that the readers who want fiction to be like life are
considerably outnumbered by those who would like life to be like fiction."
From: cm9@prism.gatech.EDU (MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: US Army distinctive insignia
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:07:42 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Regarding distinctive insignia, et al. for the U.S. Army,
the authority is the U.S. Army Institute of Hearaldry,
Cameron Station VA.  (don't know the zip)  They may
be able to help with questions.


-- 
MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:     ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!cm9
Internet: cm9@prism.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Subject: Misc.
Reply-To: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu (Kay Schlumpf)
Organization: Materials Research Lab
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:01:26 GMT


 Hello!

 Well, I just subscribed to this group and I must say it's mighty 
interesting. I've always been curious about heraldry which is
probably PART of the reason I graduated as a Medieval Civ
major here at the U of I. I was always irked that my father 
didn't know what his heraldic arms were..drove me batty!
Then I found this VERY nice book in the U of I library, which 
I forget the name of, but it's all in French. It's like General 
Heraldry or something like that. I found it a few years ago and
looked under my maiden (then only) last name of "von Bieberstein".
Father said that the "von" designated something like the lowest
level of royalty or something like that so I figured there HAD to
be arms for this family! I knew they were from Northern Germany
up by Poland. I found one set and it was a whopper! I don't remember
it all exactly, but it was just packed with stuff! The books are light
blue and there are two sets. The taller ones are nothing but pages on
pages of little pictures of the shields. The smaller, fatter ones 
which describe the shield in the proper terms with some history 
of the family...of course, all in French. I can go find out what
the title of the book is, if anyone wants to know, and if no one
else can come up with it.

Boy, was *I* a happy person when I met and married my now hubby!
His family has a shield which has been passed down for generation
upon generation (most of them are still in Switzerland). This family
is VERY proud of their shield and nearly every one of them has had
a stained glass window made of it. Peter said once while they were 
walking around St. Gallen (Switzerland) they found it on top of one
of the buildings there with a date in the late 1400's...pretty neat. 

I've forgotten the proper terms, but it's three black hunting horns
on a yellow shield. They run in a straight line down the middle of it.

Well, hope to hear lots more good stuff!!!

Kay Schlumpf 
 



 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Kay Schlumpf     University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,  MRLCFC
bitnet:   schlumpf@uiucmrl    	   internet: schlumpf@uimrl7.mrl.uiuc.edu
Wife to Peter, the Patient; Mommy to Baeki, the Happy Cocker Spaniel; 
Owned by Pixel, the Cuddly Siamese and Dante, the Quilter's Cat. Also
Quilter, Collector of Model Horses, and Horse Fiend! 
             All opinions are my own...mine mine mine, ALL MINE!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 21:42:30 GMT
Reply-To: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Sep9.194633.16617@ultra.com>, jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software Release Engr}) writes:
|> 	Another unit is the "helmet".  In normal heraldic display throughout
|> the ages, this has been placed atop the shield, ideally in proportion to the
|> actual helmet worn compared to the shield used.  This helmet varies widely,
|> and in more recent times has become quite stylized and codified.  Many other
|> units of heraldic display rest atop this helmet.
|>
|> 		Joseph Beckenbach

I once heard, long ago, that the position of the helm on the Coat of Arms
notes something about the person who received those arms. If the helm is
facing forward, then the arms belong to a person from Royal blood. If the
helm is facing to the left (dexter), the arms belong to a person of
legitmate blood of a noble. If the helm is facing right (sinister), the
arms belong to a person of illegitmate blood of a noble.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Cassandra Baldassano
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Subject: Brandt
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:04:01 GMT

	Is anyone out there familiar with the 'Brandt' clan
of Potsdam, Germany?  We were pretty much wiped out in WW2
and I am the eldest surviving male son of the eldest surviving
male with a son.  We came to America shortly after that war.
	I'm just curious.  If there is anyone out there in netland
who's family is from the same area and has the same surname I would
be interested as any news of surviving relations would be nice.

				J. Wagner

p.s. My oma was named 'Brandt.'

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Tartans and Scottish Geneology 
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:16:28 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> 	Do you know of any good books, other then the Dictionary already
> mentioned, on Scottish geneology, tartans, arms and surnames?

The very best book on Scottish surnames is George Black, "Surnames of
Scotland" (The New York Public Library, 1986).  It is an etymological
dictionary, rather than a genealogical dictionary.  For clan histories, I
would recommend "The Clans and Tartans of Scotland" by Robert Bain
(Fontana/Collins, 1985), which is more scholarly than most of the commonly-
available books on the subject, and "The Highland Clans" by Iain Moncreiffe
of that Ilk (London : Barrie & Jenkins, 1982), which gives a short but
thorough history of each of the clans.  I know one book on Scottish
heraldry that gives a general introduction to heraldry, with focus on
Scottish practices, but it would be a little help to the genealogist.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Date: 14 Sep 92 06:57:35 GMT

In <crystal.716227601@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:


>Odd question, I know...but I am a collector of domestic cat items, and it
>was suggested to me that there may be some in crests.  (Not tigers or lions
>rampant and sinister, but 'lil ol' home-loving pussy cats)  

>Is there such a beast in heraldry?

There's a photo of a stained glass window, made by Jan Gray (location?)
of the arms of the Worshipful Company of Launderers, with a domestic cat
sitting on the crest, washing his left paw with his tongue. (page 42,
 _An Introduction to Heraldry_, by Stefan Oliver, c.1987 ISBN 0-8317-4433-2)


Eilidh Swan
*********************************************************************
Cat McGlothlin  urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu  'urcat'='you-are-cat'   "Oh!"

  >>Please Vote in November!!!  Vote out State of CA Incumbents!!<<
   >>>Let State Employees receive paychecks instead of IOU's!!!<<<
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry