From: sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk (Stewart T Fleming)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books on Disc! (discussion repost, long)
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:16:07 GMT
Reply-To: sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk
Organization: Dept. Of Computing and Electrical Engineering, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh


I started a similar sort of discussion to this one
wometime last year.  Here's a summary of what people said then :

[Actually, this isn't a summary, but a complete repost.  It's relevant
stuff though.]

My original posting posed the question : "What is a Book ?"

-----------

Article 15131 of rec.arts.books:
From: mwinters@yoyodyne.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Mary Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a book ?
Organization: National Center for Supercomputing Applications at Urbana Illinois

In article <3583@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk writes:
>
>I've been meaning to post this query for a while...
>
>What makes a book ?  My (Collins) dictionary gives 21 definitions; the first
>two are :
>
[definitions deleted]

>Let's say I take a manuscript, store it in a computer and allow a "reader"
>to browse through the electronic "pages", printing the text on a screen
>rather than on paper.  Is this device a book, or is it something else ?  If
>it is something else, what words would people use to describe it ?
>
>A related issue....is your enjoyment of reading affected by the way you read ?
>Some people have talked previously in this group about the feel of the printed
>page (even the smell of a new book); the weight, cover and so on.
>
>The reason I'm asking all this is because I get the feeling that paper-based
>books are not particularly efficient for storing information.  They are too
>heavy, take up too much space and get easily damaged.  However, I get the
>feeling that a book is much more than its contents and that an electronic
>form must do more than simply store the contents.
>

Well, I for one would be very unlikely to read an entire book off of a 
computer screen. When I want to read a book for enjoyment purposes, I get
myself something to drink and snack on, turn some gentle classical music
on and curl up on the couch (or in bed) with a pillow. (And I really mean
"curl up" in a literal sense - there's still room for a couple other
people on the couch when I do this.) Having to sit in front of a computer
- no matter how comfortable the chair is, just doesn't give me the same
feeling of coziness. In this sense, a paper book (and preferably mass
paperback 'cause it's easier to hold) is much more comfortable. Now, if
they ever come out with computers that can be held in your hands and that 
don't need to be plugged in anywhere, I might try it out to see if it
gave me the same sense of satisfaction. Until then, I'll stick with my 
paperbacks ;-)

Hope this helps!

Mary
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Mary Winters                    ^ Happiness is having your cat(s) meet ^
^ mwinters@ncsa.uiuc.edu     or   ^ you at the front door with purrs and ^ 
^ mwinters@yoyodyne.ncsa.uiuc.edu ^ miaus.                               ^ 
^                                 ^                                      ^ 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Article 15133 of rec.arts.books:
From: repnomar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Janet M. Lafler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a book ?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University

In article <1991Aug9.152618.4361@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> mwinters@yoyodyne.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Mary Winters) writes:
>In article <3583@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk writes:
>>
>>I've been meaning to post this query for a while...
>>
>>What makes a book ?  My (Collins) dictionary gives 21 definitions; the first
>>two are :
>>
>[definitions deleted]
>
>>
>>The reason I'm asking all this is because I get the feeling that paper-based
>>books are not particularly efficient for storing information.  They are too
>>heavy, take up too much space and get easily damaged.  However, I get the
>>feeling that a book is much more than its contents and that an electronic
>>form must do more than simply store the contents.
>>
>
>Well, I for one would be very unlikely to read an entire book off of a 
>computer screen. When I want to read a book for enjoyment purposes, I get
>myself something to drink and snack on, turn some gentle classical music
>on and curl up on the couch (or in bed) with a pillow. (And I really mean
>"curl up" in a literal sense - there's still room for a couple other
>people on the couch when I do this.) Having to sit in front of a computer
>- no matter how comfortable the chair is, just doesn't give me the same
>feeling of coziness. In this sense, a paper book (and preferably mass
>paperback 'cause it's easier to hold) is much more comfortable. 

Not to mention portable.  I carry books around with me; I don't want to
be limited to reading them in places where I hvae access to a computer
terminal.  This seems to me one of the great drawbacks of electronic
books.  

/Janet

-- 
send mail to:	repnomar@leland.stanford.edu
"We're living in a PROTESTANT POLICE STATE and all I'M worried about is getting
a job so I can help perpetuate the paranoid patriarchal DEATH culture!"
									--Mo


Article 15161 of rec.arts.books:
From: RMG3@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a book ?
Organization: Penn State University

In article <3583@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk>, sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk (Stewart Fleming) says:

>A related issue....is your enjoyment of reading affected by the way you read ?
>Some people have talked previously in this group about the feel of the printed
>page (even the smell of a new book); the weight, cover and so on.

  It can be.  Add too, the smell of used books and used bookstores.  Reading
books can be a very sensual experience.  As mentioned, books are curl-
uppable.  Even a small laptop fails this.  You just can't turn the page.
(No pages.  Just a screen.)

>The reason I'm asking all this is because I get the feeling that paper-based
>books are not particularly efficient for storing information.  They are too
>heavy, take up too much space and get easily damaged.  However, I get the
>feeling that a book is much more than its contents and that an electronic
>form must do more than simply store the contents.

  Define efficient.  You seem to be taking the definition to be bytes per
cubic inch.  Based on my experiences in moving, I would certainly not
argue.  But tell me.  I've read (I _have_) books that are over 100 years
old in their original covers, etc.  Do you think computers are going to
be supported 100 years after release?  What electronic media have data
life expectancies greater than, say, 10 years.  CD-ROM perhaps.  Floppies,
magnetic tape, hard disks, and read-write optical disks are all 10 year
media.  How well do CD's stand up to being dropped?  [I truly don't know]

  The other side is, even if the medium will hold the data relatively
uncorupted for decades, will we still have the machinery to read it?  This
is already problem for a lot of the satellite data that was collected in
the 60's, among other things.  The tapes were written on a machine and
using a protocol that is no longer in use.  Moot point about being able
to store 30 books on a CD if you can't read it.

  Books on acid free paper are durable (drop, kick, send through mail ...)
long-lived (decades easily, even paperbacks -- I have quite a few that are
older than I am), technologically reliable (the publisher can go out of
business but I can still read the book years later, no batteries to fail,
not subject to voltage spikes or sags on the power line, storage protocols
and mechanisms don't change) means of data storage.

Bob Grumbine


Article 15157 of rec.arts.books:
From: wugcrc@wums2.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a book?
Organization: Washington University School of Medicine

Mary Collins writes:
   "What is a book?"
    There have been several responses so far, most echoing my own feelings that
reading very much off a computer screen doesn't seem very appealing.  Reading 
is much more than just an intellectual experience.  There's a whole gestalt to
it, and one that differs according to the type of reading that you're doing.
    For example, if I'm reading something solely because I want to, generally
for pleasure, I'm like the poster (sorry, can't recall your name), who curls
up on the couch with something to drink (preferably hot tea), comfortably, and
dives right in.  The heft of the book, the size, the type of paper used, whether
I have to peer into the "gutter" or try  to guess, because the pages are bound
with insuffient binding margins, what characters are out of sight, whether the
cover is plastic coated with sharp corners, etc. etc. etc.; all these things
can enhance or detract from the session.
    One problem with computers, even with a small, light portable one, is that
you are reading transmitted light rather than reflected.  Light reflected off
a page, especially one with a non-glaring-white page, is easy on the eyes. Less
contrast, less light entering the eye, so eye-strain is minimized.  Computer
screens, on the other hand, are all transmitted, so the page IS THE LIGHT SOURCE
ITSELF.  Now, which one is giving off more light is debatable.
     Another consideration is that light from a computer screen is constantly 
being refreshed at a rate far slower than that from a lamp.  Secondly, computer
screens are composed of discrete phosphors which, in effect, means that you're 
really looking at a constantly changing mini-electronic billboard.  This has the
effect, with all those pixels going on and off, of strobing.  Not something you
want to do for too long.
     However, there is a novel called "Cyberbooks", which describes a device, a
sort of computer/reader that is to be marketed as a replacement for books.
Instead of buying a book, you either buy or download to, a chip which holds the
text that the reader than displays.  It's billed as a satire on the publishing
business, but, not being involved in publishing, that part was lost on me.
An interesting book, worth the quick read that it is, but it also points out
another problem with such a solution (not denying the space you would save on
bookshelves).
     In the last several years, paperback books have been offering various
devices on the covers as artistic, or other, embellishments.  Most of them are
playful, about on the level of things you would find in children's books.  For
example, there will be a cut-out in the first page of a 2 page cover, which
reveals something fairly innocent looking.  When you open the book to the second
page of the cover, what you saw, in it's proper context, is horrific, funny,
nasty, something.  Or there are reliefs built into the cover.  Cyberbooks has,
as an example, the main characters embossed into the cover.  The villainess of
the book has, especially, an interesting, um, texture.
     Granted, this is just a ploy to get you to buy the book.   With the cyber-
reader, books would be chosen on the basis of content.  And what book publisher
would want to take that chance?
                                       Be reading you,

                                             Dan Flasar
                                             Washinton U School of Med
                                             St. Louis, MO


Article 15175 of rec.arts.books:
From: tbray@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a book?
Organization: University of Waterloo

It would be foolish to claim that any current computing technology comes
close to the printed book in ease of use, efficiency, portability, and
cost.  Equally foolish to claim that there can't be some other technology
in the not-too-distant future that will do the job just fine.  

Tim Bray, Open Text


Article 15341 of rec.arts.books:
From: jmc@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: What is a Book?
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University

Here's my fantasy.  The pocket terminal consists of two sheets of
foldable plastic and a tiny CPU.  One sheet is the display which
rolls up into a cylinder that fits in the shirt pocket like a pen.
The second is the keyboard which behaves the same.  The CPU is
another pen.  The thing is also a cellular phone.  When reading
one calls up page one of the book, newspaper, magazine or newsgroup
from the Library of Congress.  The screen is color, 2000 by 2000.
If actually working, one has two or more screens, so that as much
reference information as one wants can be simultaneously visible.
--
Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. - Proverbs i,17

John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305


STF
--
sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk                        ...uknet!cs.hw.ac.uk!sfleming
"Eat what you catch or put it back.  And don't go wasting
   a lot of words when a simple 'yup' will do"  -mid-west fishing ethic
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books