From: andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim)
Subject: Re: Corporal punishments & wife beating...
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:59:37 GMT

In article <Jan.21.13.47.48.1993.5765@gandalf.rutgers.edu> junglee@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Jung S. Lee) writes:
>andrew@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Andrew Sung Hyun Kim) writes:
>
>>I have a better solution.... 
>>There is a very sparsly populated tract of land in 
>>Amazon jungle, in Brazile.   Why don't you and like
>>minded females go there and form a new nation that is
>>without prejudice, social classes, no avarice, etc...
>
>This sounds much like what the white said to the black in the past in
>America. If you, the black, have problems with what the white do, go
>back to Africa in which no discrimination exists for the black.

Before people get emotional, let me put this into perspective.
My reponse was edited, so the nature of my reply is not clear
in this reply by Jung Lee.  Let me quote the portion that Ms.Lee
left out.

In article <Jan.19.16.07.46.1993.11200@gandalf.rutgers.edu> junglee@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Jung S. Lee) writes:
>kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:
>
>>aggressor.  After the fact, however, I think it should left to
>>the society at large to determine what sort of punishment or
>
>The society where the male dominates.  
>Jung

Ms. Lee was implying that punishment should not be made by the
society, rather vigilantism maybe preferrable because it was male 
dominated society.  My reply to this was that maybe she should star 
in a sequel to "Death Wish" series.  Now, You are making references 
to Martin Luther.  Who was never an adovcate of violence, he worked 
within the system to bring about change.  Your reply implied that 
such is not desirable or worrkable.  So, it was my way of saying, 
"is this the only way you can think of to change the system?".  
I hope the answer I will hear is more constructive.

This was my reply to her suggestion:
>Did someone once accuse me of being paranoid?
>"Death Wish IV", starring Jung.

and I added.

>I have a better solution.... 
>There is a very sparsly populated tract of land in 
>Amazon jungle, in Brazile.   Why don't you and like
>minded females go there and form a new nation that is
>without prejudice, social classes, no avarice, etc...
>You can create an Utopia there.  Then after you have
>created such a perfect government, come back and enlighten
>rest of us mortals how the society should be setup :)

Notice, that this was meant to be humorous sarcasm.
Now, my main point of original reply was following:

>Thank you for coming up with a practical solution to
>the problem at hand : don't leave the decisions to "The
>society where the male dominates."  

Again, I am at loss at words :)  For a person(Ms.Lee) who has
consistently advocated for practical solution to the
problem to come up with such a reply.

I wrote:
>"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak, and another
>to listen." [H.D.Thoreau]
>
>I am still in listening mode... 

And I am even to now, still in a listening mode...

Ms.Lee wrote:
>Instead, what did they do? They fought fiercely against the ignorance
>and prejudice of the white. Now what's happening? People of all colors
>in this country try not to discriminate against race, sex and color.
>If those who felt they are treated unfairly have not standed up
>against it by themselves, no progress would have made. A few people
>like Martin Luther King taught a very important lesson that if one can
>change a world around with the help of others in the same situation.
>This is my solution. And what you said about Utopia is like because
>you can't get a good score on a math exam, you ask someone else to
>take it for you to get a better score. If You want it, you work for
>it. If you don't want it, just watch what courageous people achieve.

Your suggested solution implied rebellion against the social system.
And you implied that you can not trust the judgement (of male
dominated society).  Of course, I am not against a rebellion and
revolution.  But, why go through violent changes when avenues for
changes are all there?  Maybe you are inspired by the revisionist
view of Malcolm X and his stance on violence.  I am simply suggesting
that there are enough leeway in the system to bring about the positive
changes right now.  Your militant style of suggestion, to my
observation do more harm than good.

Violence begets violence.  Recall, what Gandhi said about, an eye for
eye...  If you truly adhers to the teachings of Gandhi and King then
is it constructive to say things like "kick them in the balls",
or imply that social justice system (no matter how unjust at times)
should be ignored?  Did he not try to work through the system?

As I have said in the past.  Result of Utopian dreamers often has
been that they created hell on earth. 

Peaceful orderly change is much more preferred than radical changes.
This is what my ideal is.  This is one thing that has been sorely lacking
in Korean politics.

>I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you here. If not, I
>don't know how to put it so that you can get my point. 
>
>Jung

I think I understand, that is what the problem is :)

Andrew Sung Hyun Kim

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