From: wagner@grace.math.uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Men's/Women's Roles in Marriage
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:22:42 GMT
Organization: UH Dept of Math

"Tracy" == Tracy L. Hughes <thughes@ug.cs.dal.ca> writes:

Tracy> 3. The position of Submission is always the most difficult for
Tracy> a thinking human being.  Why do you think it is so many of us
Tracy> desire to have our own way all the time.  And why do you think
Tracy> it is that it is so hard to Submit ourselves to God's will.  It
Tracy> is because we all desire, to some extent, to have things our
Tracy> own way.  

Quite correct, and very much at the heart of the matter.
Our first concern should be that we live our lives in
accordance with God's will--not for the purpose of meriting
salvation, but as our thank-offering to God, in response to
the grace he has showed us in redeeming us from our sins.

Yet how do we know the will of God, if not from the written
Word recorded in Scripture?  How can we presume to say
that some parts of Scripture are wrong?  Doesn't
submission to God's will mean accepting the clear revelation
he has given us?  And that revelation is very clear regarding
the submission of a wife to her husband.  

A passage that has not yet been discussed is 1 Peter 3.  Peter
wrote:

"Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that,
if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over
without talk by the behavior of their wives, when they see the
purity and reverence of your lives."

He goes on to mention "Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him
her master," as an example for women to follow.

I have found it interesting to note that Peter says that a wife
should submit even to an unbelieving husband, so that she might
win him to Christ 'without words'.  God's will that the wife
submit is not conditional on the husband's faith or behavior--
yet we know that Paul also said "But if the unbeliever leaves,
let him do so," and Jesus taught that divorce was permissible
if one partner had committed adultery.  In either case the 
underlying principle is that one partner had broken or 
abandoned the marriage.  In such cases divorce is permissible,
since it simply takes public notice of the fact that the
marriage is broken.

So I would say that the married woman should submit to her husband,
unless he has broken or abandoned the marriage.  

The example of Sarah is also interesting, because Abraham asked 
her to do some strange things.  Twice he asked her to pass herself
off as his sister (she was actually his half sister).  So the
Egyptian Pharoah, on the one hand, and the king of the 
Amalekites (as I recall) on the other, both tried to marry her.
Sarah obeyed--until God revealed the truth to the kings.

Sarah also offered Abraham her maid Hagar as consort.  This showed
a lack of trust in God's promise of a son, and particularly of
a descendant through whom all nations would be blessed--that
descendant being Christ.  This wasn't one of Sarah's better
acts, but it shows that Sarah was not a completely silent
marriage partner.  She made suggestions to her husband, and
he accepted at least one of them.

Tracy> In defining the Christian role as the one of
Tracy> Submission, Christ was defining the most difficult path to
Tracy> follow (you all remember the quotes from the New Testament on
Tracy> the path to God being narrow).  We all desire to lead to some
Tracy> extent...if not to lead other people at least to lead our own
Tracy> lives.  This is the point of the fall...rather than submit to
Tracy> God's will humans wanted to think for themselves.

Precisely.  And the desire to disobey the will of God comes
from the sinful nature, and not from the regenerated new 
person.  Yet Christian leadership is necessary and is 
a gift from God.  See Romans 12:8, for example.

Tracy> Responsibility is, of course, a necessary attachment to
Tracy> leadership.  I think most humans, given the choice, would
Tracy> choose the leadership.

I don't think so.  There are a great many people who are much
more happy in a following role.  And I believe that God's
will for women is that they submit to their husband's leadership,
or if they are not married, to their father's leadership,
and, incidentally, to the leadership of the church.

Tracy>  Have you ever considered why so many
Tracy> women complain about their present status in Christianity if
Tracy> their position is truly the least difficult and ergo the most
Tracy> desired?  This is a myth.  Submission has ALWAYS been the
Tracy> hardest thing for a human being to handle.  If it wasn't, there
Tracy> wouldn't have been a fall.  So this point, like the others,
Tracy> doesn't follow.

I think the reason many women complain is that they see that
the men are not doing a very good job of leading.  I think
the solution to this problem is that we need to train and motivate
men to do a better job of leading.  What seems to be needed
most is the the sanctification that comes through the proper
use of the Law and Gospel.  

This seems to be the situation with Deborah the Judge.  God
used her to embarass the men, because the men weren't doing
their job.  But there is no question in this passage from 
Judges that the men *should* have been doing the leading.
So I don't think I could take Deborah as a
role model or as justification for feminine leadership.

Tracy> Is it worth damaging the faith of so many modern day women who
Tracy> view marriage as a joining of equals and who view women's
Tracy> equality as something which is clearly right, to insist that
Tracy> such an inessential clause, one that does not logically follow
Tracy> from Christ's commandments to us except BOTH ways..  i.e.
Tracy> husband and wife BOTH submit to each other as we should all
Tracy> submit to those we love...be followed.  I think it does more
Tracy> harm than good.

But how do we know "which is clearly right"?  Do we follow the
clear teachings of Holy Scripture, or the 'clear' conclusions
of sin-contaminated human reason?  If we adopt the latter,
we might as well have never had the reformation.

David H. Wagner			"The Church's one foundation
a confessional Lutheran.	Is Jesus Christ, her Lord;
				She is His new creation
				By water and the Word.
				From heav'n He came and sought her
				To be His holy bride;
				With His own blood He bought her,
				And for her life He died."

				--Samuel J. Stone, 1866