From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 20:23:59 GMT

In article <23556@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, curmudgeonly clueless old white boy) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.165049.7810@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>>In article <23541@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, irritated old clueless white boy) writes:
>
>>  But you seem to be such a "wanna-be".
>I do?  Only in your dreams.

  Sorry, JJ, you don't appear in my dreams.  
  Pak does, however.  ;-0

>I like me.
  I'm glad you do.  Obviously those people in your town
  didn't.  So it was lucky that you at least liked yourself
  enough not to let them get you down.
>
>Yeah, it was, it turns out, quite a sacrifice in more ways than
>one.  First, he found out just how bad it was in the south at
>that time, and how it remains in some places today.   Second, 
>I understand that the poor fellow died from the results of the
>way he was "colored" eventually.   This book "black like me"
>sat on my grandmother's bookshelf for many years (it's an
>OLD book), and I read it several times.  It was rather
>enlightening in a surprising way, it described the way
>I was treated where I grew up so well.  The things missing
>were the "go to the back of the bus" laws.  I just got beat
>up if I didn't, no law needed, thank you kindly.

  Wow, they really did a number on you when you were little.
  You mean they actually beat you up if you didn't sit in the
  back of the bus?  I guess I can see how you'd feel that
  your "ozone-challenged" skin is no advantage to you in
  that environment.  I bet the Blacks were lucky because
  at least they had a sign and a warning to go to the back
  of the bus, thus avoiding getting beat up.
>
>Still, yes, as I've said, YES, IT IS DIFFERENT.  DIFFERENT
>in that I got beat up for breaking out of a class, ergo,
>except when I was in the wrong store, or the wrong bar
>(and people knew where I "belonged", sigh, the joys of a smaller
>town), I didn't get beat up randomly.  Yes, that IS a difference.
>Of course, I did get beat up randomly (well, rather I beat
>feet, and fortunately my pf's were faster than theirs, I took
>some damage, but they didn't get hands on me to keep me
>around) for being white on Market Street, but then again,
>that's only a white boy's experiences, and as you are making
>so very, very clear, they don't count.  I'm not a person.
>I'm just an object to hate.

  Apparently in that town.  How did it feel to be treated as
  a nonperson and an object of hate?  Aren't you glad you got
  out of there?  What about your mother who's still living
  there?  Are you going to help her get out of there too?
  What is Market Street?  Is it like the center of town
  and only petty elites get to go there?

>
>This armband is
>a whole lot like being the kid from the mill taking the
>SAT with all the management kids, even in another town. 
>The clothing is all it takes.  They steal your seat,
>your pencils, try to distract you, and in general harass
>you, simply because YOU shouldn't be going to college,
>you're trying to take THEIR place.

  Sounds like these management kids are really insecure
  if they don't want to allow anyone else to take the
  SAT.  I wonder what they would have done to me for
  breaking all the curves.  I'm so lucky that I didn't
  live in that town.  Luckily my parents probably couldn't
  have found any jobs in that town except for laundry,
  so that we didn't end up living there.
>
>Yeah, I recognize it, alright.  THEN, when the scores
>come back, the Guidance Councillor sends yours back
>because "he couldn't have done that good".  Yeah,
>sure.  Never happens to a white person. THEN, when
>they come back saying "well, he's the only one who
>answered x, y, and z right in the whole room. 
>Of course, when this gets out (confidential, hah!)
>four nice doctor and lawyer's boys show up to pound the
>daylights out of you for doing that.  Nope, never happen
>to a white person.  Just couldn't.

  Boy, these counselors are even worse.  Seems like all
  these terrible things happened to you.  Did it happen
  to any of your brothers and sisters also?  Sounds like
  they had something against you, for sure.  I'm sure if
  you weren't white, they might have treated you better
  because they'd be afraid of discrimination laws.  But
  since you're white, they felt free to treat you badly.
  How sad it is.  I can now see why it is a disadvantage
  to be white, sometimes.  Of course there are people
  who don't care about the laws and would treat anybody
  badly.
>
>I haven't denied it, except in your mind, where you must
>insist that "MY EXPERIENCE IS WORSE THAN YOURS".

  Your experience in your mill-town is definitely worse
  than mine.  I grew up in a mostly Hispanic town and
  people treated us pretty nicely.  That is, after the
  neighborhood turned from white to Hispanic.  Before
  that, we had this German family across the street that
  used to send their kids over to vandalize (scratch
  epithets on our car, piss on our lawn, beat up my
  brother, and tell us to get out of their country).
  But luckily for us, the whites eventually moved out
  and Hispanics and Filipinos moved in.  I suspect
  you would have done a lot better in our neighborhood
  because the remaining whites all seemed pretty cool.
  All the prejudiced ones moved out already.

  I never suggested that my experience was worse than yours.
  I only said that if you dressed up and acted like a
  petty elite, and lied when they asked you about trust
  funds, and called yourself Count JJovlinskovich from
  Transylvania, some of those fool petty elites might
  just think you were a scion of an European nobility
  family.  Remember all the swindlers who fake like they're
  some sort of Count or Countess or Viscount of some duchy
  and these petty elite fools fall for it, wanting that
  title?  I only pointed out that they would never fall
  for me doing this Countess role because "I don't look
  like a Countess"---(reason, I'm not of European descent).

  However since I've never tried to join any petty elite,
  my experience is definitely better than yours because
  I never had anyone snub me because of my lack of trust
  funds, or family connections.  I never even came in contact
  with them.  And you're right, JJ, they wouldn't expect
  me to have any titles or trust funds anyway.  So I suppose
  my skin color really helps me because it screens away
  those petty elites before I even have to deal with them.
  But since you have the disadvantage of being white, the
  only way they can distinguish is to ask you those questions
  about your relatives, and then snub you when they find out
  you're not in the petty elite.

>>  We all know what happened
>>  to you as a child and we know that white people can be
>>  just as oppressive to each other as they are to minorities.
>No, you don't know what happened, and you accept exactly
>none of it, as your article makes so perfectly clear.

  All right,  I don't know EVERYTHING that happened to you.
  But from the intimate glimpses I've gotten, I can pretty
  well picture that life for you was a living hell growing
  up.  You've certainly gotten beaten up more times than
  I have (zero), and were oppressed by those white people,
  just for being white but of the wrong ancestry.  That
  was very unfair.  But I suspect those people could care
  less about fair play.

>Like most others who are strongly verbal on this newsgroup
>I recall little enough of it myself until somebody
>reminds me of yet another little bit of nastiness.
>Like most others, given time and some effort, I could
>probably write a nasty "expose" book, but why bother.

  You should write more about it.  Some of us find it hard
  to believe, not that we don't believe you, but that nobody
  reports on such incidents as the doctors and lawyers boys
  who would beat you up for taking the SAT.  I don't see
  any of this on Oprah Winfrey or any of the talk shows.
  Perhaps you could go on Donohue and do a show on Whites
  that have been victims of ethnic discrimination.  I'm
  serious, you've brought up a little known side of White
  America.  Certainly not what we see on the soapy operas
  and TV shows.  Most people have the impression that whites
  have it the best in this country.  You really should do
  an expose of this cultural oppression and educate us
  more.  I still think you should get that newsgroup on
  white Americans.  Everyone else has their newsgroup,
  so why can't you?  Besides, it wouldn't necessarily mean
  white supremacists, because I'm sure you and other good-
  hearted people will make sure that is not the charter.

  Maybe you could post to soc.culture.usa.  Not that I
  read that group, but since 80% of the usa population is
  white, I'm sure that your experiences would be very
  relevant to that newsgroup.

>
>>  an identical incident that happened to some poor white
>>  kid from the wrong side of the track.
>Why don't you want to hear about some of the coping
>strategies?  Last time I posed a few, as suggestions,
>nothing more, it started a thread that is living to this
>day as "arrogant white boys".  You don't want constructive
>suggestions, then, I guess?  What do you want?

  We would love to hear some coping strategies.  What did
  you do when these people attacked you?  Did you fight back
  to defend your honor?  Did you ignore their taunts or
  gave back word for word?  Did you cope by studying harder
  so you can break the curve and basically kept quiet?
>
>And I claim nothing else.  EXCEPT to point out to you
>that life isn't so very secure from where I used to sit,
>or where I sit when I got back to visit, either.  
>
  I'm not arguing with you.  I can see that you're obviously
  a victim of a harsh and cruel oppression and I can see that
  in your case, white skin didn't help you at all from where
  you came from.  It might have been better if you were a
  visible minority, because then at least, your family would
  not have been allowed to live in that town and get in contact
  with those petty elites.  Just think, you'd have been better
  off Black because then you would have gotten to go to your
  own schools and your own universities.  I guess you're right,
  JJ, being white was a detriment to you, because it put you
  smack dab in the middle of that mill-town.

>Yeah, life sucks a lot of places, now why can't we do something
>about it, rather than argue about it?  This thread started
>when  somebody tried to discuss 'what to do', and separatism,
>which is very much NOT what to do.

  What can we do about it but move out?  I mean seriously.
  How can we go into that town and change anything?  They'd
  probably beat all of us up.  I really admire your courage
  to stand up to those folks, but I personally am too chicken
  to go to that town and try and change things.  I guess you've
  been through so much more than I ever have, and that indeed
  makes you tougher.
>
>Clare, were you born in the upper middle class?  It may sound
>rude, but I recognize a whole set of behaviors and denials 
>here that have nothing to do with race, and that are
>most startlingly familiar.

  Funny, I wish I was born in the upper middle class.  Then
  at least my folks would be able to give me a down payment
  on a house.  I don't see any behaviors and/or denials that
  would make you think I'm part of that petty elite you
  so lovingly describe.  I'm being sarcastic about the loving
  part, just in case you get offended.  I would really hate
  to offend you, since you've obviously been through so much.
  I heartily apologize for any anguish I might have caused
  you in my earlier posts.  I just didn't realize you had
  it so bad and assumed wrongly that white skin was a protection
  for you.  I can now see that for some people, it really is
  a disadvantage.  I mean, after getting picked on, you can't
  even get a support group together to help each other out,
  because most people think you have no problems.  Must be
  really tough being white sometimes.  I'm glad you're brave
  and can tough it out in such a harsh environment.  We Asian
  Americans should have more sympathy for you because after
  all, you've suffered more than any of us can imagine.  At
  least we can go back to our people and gripe to each other
  and get support.  But you are one lonely soul in the wilderness.
  I hope we can offer you some solace and from now on I'll really
  listen with open ears to what you're saying.