From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: Christians as human beings [WAS: Why I am an atheis/Christian...]
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:21:35 GMT


hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>Stephen Buckley writes:

>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>
>>> I find that Christians often don't seem to be real people
>>>because they never talk in experiential terms. It's always "God did this,
>>>God did that, God filled my soul..."  These are interpretations. But tell
>>>me what you experienced, and let me try to see if I see the hand of the
>>>Divine in it. Do you understand why this is important?
>> 
>>   well.  good question.  god in me is the conviction and the wisdom and 
>> guidance in my heart that is the spirit [trinity v.3] while in prayer,
>> listening to my minister's sermon or the words of a friend in
>> conversation, reading the bible, reading another book, looking at
>> canada geese flying past my apartment window, during these times
>> and many others, something goes "ding" inside my heart. 

>Could you elaborate on this "ding?" :)

  i feel god talking to me.  that's the ding.  it is a spiritual
experience of intense proportions where what was once cluttered and
confusing gets shaken up and straightened out and concluded and it
feel better that i am free from the perplexity of an issue.  i met a woman
once with whom i fell i in love in roughly 2 hours.  the first moment
i saw her i felt like the hand of god came from out yonder, grabbed my
head and pointed to this woman entering my living room with my roomate.
i was in love by the end of dinner.  at that time i wasn't a christian
and i desparately seeking god.  at that time i was in quantum physics
and abstract math contemplating infinity on the assumption that if i got
a working knowledge of infinity [one of god's traits] i could know god.
well it felt like the months of work that led me to get an almost mental
spacial understanding of the "size" of infinity were wiped out as god's
hand felt like it came from significantly beyond the bounds of my workable
infinity.  the analogy is the infinity i was getting to know was about
as big as a ping pong ball with me inside.  god's hand intervening in my
life came from orion's belt and reached into the pp ball and affected
my life.  *that* is a spiritual experience on par with the ding i feel
every time i see god's fingerprints in my life.

>> a phrase from
>> my minister's mouth as he's speaking to almost 200 of us will answer
>> something that's been in my mind that week or often that very moment.

>This happens to me all the time, not with sermons, but rather with books
>and poems etc.  Yet the insights often have nothing to do with Christianity,
>and indeed may in fact undermine belief in Christianity. I don't think this
>phenomenon has anything supernatural about it, really. 

  neither did i until i came to understand god's nature and how he works in
my life.  that root cosmic harmony that jungians and fizzicists seek in
synchronicity and natural laws in the universe is created by god.  i used
to call it synchronicity, but i know better now.  it's god's intervention.

>> these "coincidences" happen up to a dozen times during an average sermon.
>> this is the spirit in the heart perking up my ears at just the right point
>> in the sermon or in conversation with a friend, or when i'm looking 
>> through the bible for insight, i'll find something small somewhere that
>> just happens to speak *exactly* to what i'm suffering over.  these
>> coincidences are huge spiritual interventions in life that come from
>> me turning to god for wisdom when i need it.

>Maybe...although since the same phenomenon occurs to me in a non-christian
>context I am a bit skeptical that this is God at work. :)  Seems to me like
>ordinary intelligence and coincidence. We do not notice the thousand 
>sentences we read that do not address the issue in our minds at the
>moment - but the one that does strikes us as fortunate. If my brain
>is wrestling with Christian problems, it is pretty likely that I will
>hear things that relate to my problem in a sermon...

  and the phenomena occured when i wasn't a christian too.  except now
it happens along with a spiritual peace, soothing, love, forgiveness,
empowerment, and polite kick in the bum incentive to act--all of which
were absent before when the synchronicities were merely intellectual
phenomena.  the rest comes from being with god.  and it doesn't affect
my christian problems.  in fact most of the things in which god inspires
and intervenes in my life with wisdom have to do with how i'm living
my life, not christian dogma or religious issues.  it's 90% practical life
and the rest christian issues.

>>   christians often don't seem to speak like real people in conversation
>> with non-believers for fear of persecution.  strange, but let me explain.
>> i'm sitting with a group of people who are curious about my experience--
>> a relatively rare event because most conversations i have with people
>> revolve around them slamming me and my hideous, repulsive, intolerant
>> beliefs.  so when i get at least semi-sincere queries, it's easy to
>> couch my words in christian cliches and scripture because the words
>> are eternal, from god and full of solace in an environment of interrogation
>> that is rarely free of stress and tension.  it's like a kind of moat and
>> castle wall to keep out those who could turn at any moment [often 
>> friends] and take something personal i say in my words, experientially,
>> and turn me into a hateful intolerant bigot.  we've all seen this happen
>> no matter what our perspective.  so christians can sometimes couch their
>> words in god's for protection.  but if yer close, really close, to a
>> christian where there's trust and compassion in your relationship, ask
>> them to be sincere and descriptive and they just might, if they feel
>> they can trust you and not feel threatened.

>This is extremely interesting, and it explains a lot. Thanks for the
>look into another's mind. :)  It is a kind of self-reinforcing cycle, isn't
>it?   If a Christian comes on saying "God told me this, God did that..."
>it raises the hackles of every non-Christian in earshot. Here's why: 
>it sounds like self-serving bullshit. And in a sense it is..because 
>usually what they mean is "I had a feeling that this was really right, and
>Christian doctrine tells me that when I get this feeling, it's God." 

  no.  it's not christian doctrine.  it is the dependable experience
of christians who have a track record of a relationship with god.  many
highly non-intellectual christians who don't understand the doctrine
too well or the complexity of biblical issues still have a relationship
with god.  remember...jesus spoke in the simplest words, the truths are
simple enough for anyone to know and the relationship with god is so
basic it's easily comprehensible...after all he's our creator, the relationship
should be the most natural of all.

>This is just one example - no intention to offend. What irritates is that
>usually the non-Christians have had exactly the same experience lots of
>times, and never dreamed of thinking it was anything other than part of
>normal life.  Christians often come across as intolerably smug. Not all - 
>but often. Every time they find their car keys or figure out a problem
>it's "God did this, God told me, I just followed God..."   See why this
>might irritate?  There's nothing persecutory about it.

  intolerable, or even tolerable smugness is rude and should be avoided
by christians and non-christians alike.  lovingly help christians by
telling them supportively that what you hear as smugness hurts, and they
ought to stop.  but if they're not being smug or bothersome in any way,
what makes you begrudge their relationship with god?  

>However, I can also see why a Christian might get defensive when 
>challenged by people who are obviously hostile to their faith, and there are
>lots of people like that around.  At that point, one doesn't want to 
>say anything that could provide an opening for an attack. Safer to 
>stick to basics, to doctrinal assertions. Understood. 

  but this can change if those who like to chat with christians and
slam them at the same time alter their respect for humanity a bit and
treat the christian with the respect that jesus says christians should
treath everyone--even those slamming them--with love, and if not love,
at least respect.

>How easy it is to forget that Christians are just people like anyone else!
>They would be more popular (dogmatic Christians, that is) if they would
>acknowledge the limitations of their knowledge and faith. The "I'm certain!
>I'm absolutely certain!! It's all been proved!!!" crap does NOT aid
>the cause at all.  

  i don't say it's been proved because proof in the empirical sense isn't
available, but i'm always surprised at how hateful people come when 
confronted with absolute truth.  it's so widespread to believe no one
can know the absolute truth that people get really bugged when some offer
it.  it's a twisted rationale.

>>>This is indeed a remarkable statement, but paradoxically, it does not 
>>>alienate this atheist.  Christianity seems to me to be a wreck from an
>>>evidential point of view. The only thing that can salvage it is a faith
>>>that "the Lord works in mysterious ways."   A note for Christians - 
>>>come on like human beings! Not like people with a direct hot-line to heaven.com.
>>>I think a rationally-based Christianity is possible only for the 
>>>intellectually-challenged, but posts like Mr. Buckley's indicate that
>>>Christians ARE human beings after all!
>> 
>>   thanks for the compliment.  it means a lot.  the lord works in mysterious
>> ways, only in one context.  the normal ways that meaning is conveyed in
>> our world [logical, linear thot, art] are what we see as normal and 
>> intelligible.  but divine spiritual intervention often look like coincidences
>> that happen to have god's fingerprints on them, fingerprints that are 
>> recognizable if god's spirit is in us to help us see them. 
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
>Maybe! Here is an example of the annoying use of Christian cliche. 
>What you mean is, these apparent coincidences no longer look random 
>when interpreted according to Christian teaching.  Why not say that???
>Just conclude by saying, "and I feel this teaching is true."  
>This makes the whole thing a dialogue between human beings, not one 
>human being and one prophet with a direct feed to heaven.edu. :)

  well, lighten up and don't get so emotional over cliches.  ask yourself
why the words get you so angry?  i won't speculate an answer for you, but
i'd like to hear your answer.  and it's not christian teaching that inter-
prets my experience.  my experience is sound and dependable.
> 
>> the wisdom
>> i get from god is no longer mysterious because i now expect it in certain
>> places, but in comparison to this world, it'll always be mysterious.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^
>This is probably a hell of a habit to break! Why don't you just say
>"non-Christian interpretaions of life?"   The kind of talk you use
>here looks very supercilious. "This world..."  Come off it, guys!
>We might listen to you more if you didn't put us down (and yourselves up) 
>implicitly every time you open your mouths! 

  i thot you were already listening to me.  i guess i'm losing my credibility.
it goes so fast.  :(  i say this world because i believe in the reality 
of the physical and the metaphysical world.  i'm not going to constantly
translate all my ideas into non-spiritual, materialist, relativist lingo
to suit everyone.  discussions require people to come half way out of
they own camp and i'm not going to de-christianize every one of my words
to keep you from feeling christianized.  accept my camp and the words i
use *just as i accept your words and concepts* that i could criticize 
because you too use phrases that i could make minor beefs about as well.
and frankly, i have no intention of putting anyone else down with my
words.  if you're feeling that, i'd like to know why because i'm not
here to make everyone feel stupid and inadequate.

>>>This comment gives me some idea of HOW a person can be a Christian - it has
>>>a ring of truth. Of course, it doesn't change things a lot for me, 
>>>but it does make me see that Christianity is as valid an approach to life
>>>as atheism. 
>> 
>>   and i hope for you a more valid approach.

>Belief in God seems to me both beautiful, in a weird way, and valid. However,
>the whole Pauline salvation/damnation business stinks to high heaven (you
>might say :). It rots from a logical point of view, and it rots from 
>the point of view of anyone who loves (for whatever paradoxical reason)
>their fellow human beings.  Jesus has always been a magnetic figure for me,
>and I love the gospels. I have never been able to reconcile my own
>profound attraction for the gospels with my uncontrollable repugnance
>for the Christian orthodoxy which I (now) know came into being long
>after Jesus and his disciples passed from the earth.  I don't know what to 
>do about this at all, I'm afraid. However this is my problem, not yours! :)

  i truly cannot understand how you see christianity as rotten in the 
perspective of love when jesus preaches love everyone.  the contradiction
doesn't make sense to me.

  and if you want to know about jesus, don't look to social-organized
church doctrine.  read the bible.  all doctrine should stem from the
word, the stuff that doesn't you shouldn't let get in the way of your
relationship with and knowledge of jesus.  so if you're unsure of what 
to do, read the bible and seek advice from ministers and people of 
bible-believing churches who teach and act from scripture.  and if you're
afraid, know that many people are praying that you find peace.

  god bless you.
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