From: udo@umunk.GUN.de (Udo Munk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Tcl to replacement most of /bin & /usr/bin (was: Tcl on Linux
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Organization: Udo Munk's private BBS
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 20:19:55 GMT

, Shannon Hendrix (shendrix@PCS.CNU.EDU) wrote:
: 	The future is moving towards single-user multi-tasking computers
: running on networks.  That way each user gets maximum power because the
: machine isn't running with multi-user overhead.  I don't agree with that,
: but that is how things are headed.  It may stink, but, DOS is the world's
: most popular OS and that should show you that stinky things can still
: rule.  A little more logic and less butt-kissing in the corporate world
: would help of course...

Sure, and for some problems this is usefull. But what do you think what
peoples using my system remotely say, if I would reduce it to a single
user system, and tell them, you've to wait with your login until I'm
ready whith my work? What do you do with a single user system, where
you wrote a programm which idles forever at the console and can't be
aborted? Right, same as with DOS, the power switch is the only way out.
No thanks, for software development I need COHERENT and for game playing
I'm using an SEGA single user, multi-tasking? system (the better one wins:-).

: 	Why?  Because I don't want to have to get out of UNIX to enjoy
: a nice game!  I don't want to use DOS at *ALL*.  Right now, my hard drive,
: already too small, is divided in half because I have some DOS games and
: applications that I still need.  If there were some decent UNIX word
: processors and such, that wouldn't be a problem.  However, there just
: isn't much out there for UNIX (that I can afford anyway).  So, I end up

Sure, I also hate it to shutdown my system. But fortunately I have all
programs which I _really_ need running under COHERENT now. Sure, some
of the DOS or WINDOWS programs looks nicer, but what counts for _me_ is
the functionaltity. Also there is a lot of good software available for
UNIX, but is expensiver at the first look, because UNIX is a multiuser
system with very powerfull networking. If you buy Wordperfect or something
like this you could use it with more then one user and you've to pay for.
Today for a company it may be less expensive to buy one WP for UNIX as
100 WP's for DOS. What is missing are cheap versions for PC-UNIX's,
where only one user is working with. Also the price is a question of
how many pieces of a product could be selled. If so much COHERENT's
Linux's or whatever are installed in the future as DOS today, I bet
the software wouln't be so expensive as today.

: switching back and forth.  That keeps me from effectively using a lot
: of UNIX's functionality like cron, news, email, etc.  I just can't leave
: it running long enough.  I guess what I need is to get a Macintosh for my
: grunt work and dedicate my PC to UNIX only.  But, Macs are still way
: overpriced and I still have a hard time liking them.

Why you don't buy another PC and use the DOS software on it?

: 	MGR isn't ported to Coherent yet.  It's sorta running under Linux
: but its not quite there yet.  UNIX needs a GUI built in to the kernel.

Sorry, but no! Not everybody has a need for an GUI, so I hope it
will be an extension forever, which I may install if I have a need for.

: Another nice thing to add would be a shell that is GUI from the ground up.
: Right now I load xterm (256k) and then run bash in it (another 200K).  That
: is way too much memory used for a shell.  I have thought about a shell that
: was actually a GUI application so you wouldn't be running one program on
: top of another.  Should be both smaller and faster.  If I can talk the
: school admin into paying for some of the cost (I need more hardware to
: tackle that) I may write such a beast.

AIX comes with such a X11 shell, I can't rember the name now, something
with desktop. It's no problem to write one, only a lot of work.

: 	Yes it *IS* a file system problem.  No, we can't avoid it.  To
: have the power of an OS like UNIX, you need a robust file system.  However,
: it causes lots of admin problems because of its complexity.  You are right
: about some sysadmin utils but its hard to convince newbies about that.

Give a newbie the DOS prompt and create some files with the hidden attribute
on. With Norton commander he is able to read the files, at the DOS prompt
not. Today computers aren't easy to use, one has to read the manual or
get easy to use programs. I think this isn't the problem of the underlying
OS, this problems has to been solved at the application level and not
in the kernel.

: People are still afraid of simple computers, let alone a beast like a
: UNIX box.  Again, I'm trying to promote UNIX in a way that will allow
: *anybody* to use it.  Sysadmin utilities might do the job but they will
: have to be just about foolproof.  Know any like that?  I don't...

No, but they could be written if one gets the time for this and if
someone is willing to pay the development.

: 	I think we mostly agree.  I just hate to see UNIX get killed
: simply because the UNIX camp refuses get off their behinds to make the
: system usuable by normal people.  Hey, I know how to use nroff to format
: documents and even LaTeX.  However, the output needs Postscript or some
: emulation thereof to really look nice.  I have a 24-pin printer that is
: largely unsupported by UNIX (save for the ghostscript interpreter) and
: its very hard to write with the vi/emacs and nroff/TeX combo prevelant
: in UNIX society.  Contrast that with, dare I say this, Windows.  With
: Windows I get super-fast document formatting, incredible looking output
: even on cruddy little 9-pin printers, and its all so easy.  I don't like
: Windows word processors, they are too big and ugly.  However, there is no
: reason why UNIX couldn't have a nice text-based WP like WordStar or something
: as well as a good graphical one for X.  I used IslandWrite on the Suns
: at school but do you know how much that package cost?  Its over $700!
: Hey, I got Word for Windows for $50 at a computer show!

That's what I sayed before, the software is available but to expensive.
You are very lucky to get WfW for only $50. If I would to to the next
computer shop and buy it, I have to pay ~1000DM = $670. Now guess what
I would buy for over $700?

: 	UNIX is getting stomped on because people don't give a hang
: about technical merit.  Most are too dang stupid to know anything about
: an OS.  They *DO* know how well it works for them though.  The things
: against UNIX are documentation, cost, dearth of end-user apps, incompatiblity,
: and fear.  The last part will be conquered.  But, UNIX costs way too much.

If UNIX is to expensive use COHERENT (or Linux). UNIX is incompatible?????
To what other then CP/M is DOS compatible? Sorry, but if I write a program
for System V, I get this running on a System V of any vendor today plus
COHERENT, Linux, Minix, VMS, AIX... Have you ever tried to port a typical
DOS program (not dveloped with an API available for other OS) to another
OS? My first computer was an PET2001 from Commodore, then an Apple II,
then an Z80-CP/M system then a PC with DOS. Thanks for all this fine
OS's which I've used for years. But today I write software under
COHERENT and use it on the large System V's at work. This wasn't possible
10 years ago, so please don't tell me about incompatibility, I really know
what it is.

: The documentations is great for programmers, horrible for everyone else.

Why you don't write better one and sells it to the major UNIX vendors?

: Incompatiblity is easing up now and I exepect it to get better and better
: but it is still a big issue.  When most people look at a computer system
: they want cheap, easy, lots, and pretty.  If it ain't got that it won't
: sell.  The don't realize that UNIX comes with so many things that will
: have to be added to other systems (like networking, email, software
: development tools, etc.).

UNIX end users doesn't know about incompatibility, they let me write
software, and when they change the hardware I've to port it over.
Boy am I happy that we are using UNIX today and that I don't have
to port Fortran programs from an GE mainfraime to an IBM mainfraime
anymore.

: 	Anyway, honestly believe that UNIX *WILL* survive.  It just gets
: scary once in awhile watching other OS's take off will UNIX remains more
: of a religion than a mainstream OS.  Surely if Windows can make it a
: real good OS like UNIX can.  It needs to get smaller, cheaper, faster,
: and it will do fine.  Mark Williams Company has at least made it
: smaller and cheaper.  I hope they get the rest out the door.

Yes, I hope this too, I don't want to become a DOS or Windows programmer :-)
--
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