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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:00:07 PST
From:         Jonathan Fisher <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: it's a wonderful life
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> >>people of color in the past.  Smokers are the Negroes of the nineties.
> >>   toddddddddd
> >
> >        Being black harms no one around you.  Smokers can't say the same
 thing.
> >
> Ahem.... As I was saying, the only studies of second hand smoke of which
> I'm aware deal with people confined with a smoker over long periods of
> time.  The effects on the spouse of a two-pack-a-day smoker over 20 years
> can't be extrapolated (or interpolated?) to the casual exposure of
> several hours a week.  If you live and work in a smoke free environment,
> the effects of second hand smoke in restaurants, malls, on the street,
> etc. should be negligible.
>
> Unless you (and the EPA) have better data on the effects second hand smoke
> in spacious areas for brief periods at infrequent intervals, my assertion
> still stands: Signs that says "No Smoking" might really say "Whites Only".
>     todddddddddd
> >Brett'
> >(I used to smoke.)
Let's put this this way toddddddd, I agree with you that more data is
needed.  But I am signficantly more inclined to believe that second-hand
smoke KILLS.  And even under the circumstances that you talk about, I
believe that there are enough carcinogens to cause serious problems.

However, let me ask you this.  In this month's Parents magazine, there is
an article written by a women who has 2 young kids and her husband is
an avid smoker.  She writes that she is tired of people getting on her
case about allowing her husband to smoke.  She says that she doesn't say
anything to him, he knows that it bothers her.  But not only does he
smoke a lot, but he smokes a lot around the children.  My opinion is
that this is very close to child abuse and that she is an accomplice.
Of course, (and I say this because of another thread), I don't think that
the police or the legislature ought to be involved.  I wish common sense
would take over.
What do you think?

Jonathan
(I was never a smoker.)
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:17:15 EST
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Apples, oranges and quotas

>From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU>

Whew. The last word for Peter. Almost.

>However, civil rights laws (notably the Civil Rights Act of 1964) do
>permit the use of some or all of these characteristics as PART of the
>decision-making process, especially when they are used as part of a
>deliberate program of desegregation.  This provision was inserted into
>the 1964 act as a means of maximizing the decision-making power of
>businesses and other institutions covered by the act.  On the whole,
>it's a good thing that this provision was included, because otherwise
>the Civil Rights Act would most likely have been interpreted to bar
>veterans preferences in civil service hiring, alumni preferences in
>college and university enrollment, and other such programs that most
>of us take for granted (because the preferences generally go to white
>males, he said wickedly :-).

I don't think there is any explicit provision to that effect inserted
into the 1964 act. If I'm wrong, please tell me what provision it is.

I do believe, though, that something close to what Peter says
can be inferred from the 1964 act.

I understand the act this way:

Using race (or any of the other named characteristics) as a criterion
is prohibited WHEN THE USE REFLECTS A PREJUDICE OR BIGOTRY.

Which is to say, not when it serves some legitimate goal. (Whether
a goal is "legitimate" is really just a question of whether or not
it is a mere mask for racism or other bigotry; the courts will not
really decide whether a goal of a certain business or university
or what have you is "good" or "well planned.")

So, for example, it is not illegal for a Catholic church to
consider a certain faith as a qualification for hiring its priests.

Nor is it illegal for a movie director to consider race a qualification
for hiring someone to play a certain role.

Nor is it illegal for Smith College to consider sex a qualification
for admissions.

There are many, many other examples, of course.
Affirmative action is one of them. Its goal is coherent and
distinct from bigotry. Peter provides evidence that Affirmative
Action also does tend to promote its stated goals. But even if
it didn't, that would only mean it is a bad policy, not that it
is illegal under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

So I believe, at any rate.

I've discussed this at length a while back, with Jay Sultan.

I might even have the posts saved away somewhere.

Jamie
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:13:52 CDT
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Uncl: Billary on a roll

From:    sprg0002@tulsajc

From Kiplinger Washington Letter, Dec. 30, 92

...And he'll cast a wider tax net than outlined in his campaign...
going beyond the well-to-do and foreign owned companies in this
country.  Clinton is already considering the pros and cons of higher
energy taxes, reducing the amount companies can deduct for employee
health insurance and taxing employer-provided health benefits above
a certain level.

  __________________________________________________________________

From Robert
BTW, Owl Gore's kids go to private school too.  You've got to hand it
to these guys, they want what's best for their kids.  At the same time,
they want you to send yours to public school.

Just for the record, I DO NOT support vouchers for private education.
I only support income tax relief for parents of private school children
if that same break is offered to individuals without children.  If the
tax break looked like the standard exemption used for dependants now,
i.e. requires SS#, I would be unable to use it anyway.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:35:06 EST
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: it's a wonderful life
              6 Jan 1993 16:00:56 -0400 from <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>

>>people of color in the past.  Smokers are the Negroes of the nineties.
>>   toddddddddd
>
>        Being black harms no one around you.  Smokers can't say the same thing.
>
Ahem.... As I was saying, the only studies of second hand smoke of which
I'm aware deal with people confined with a smoker over long periods of
time.  The effects on the spouse of a two-pack-a-day smoker over 20 years
can't be extrapolated (or interpolated?) to the casual exposure of
several hours a week.  If you live and work in a smoke free environment,
the effects of second hand smoke in restaurants, malls, on the street,
etc. should be negligible.

Unless you (and the EPA) have better data on the effects second hand smoke
in spacious areas for brief periods at infrequent intervals, my assertion
still stands: Signs that says "No Smoking" might really say "Whites Only".
    todddddddddd
>Brett'
>(I used to smoke.)

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "The truth cannot be told so
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   as to be understood without
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    first being believed."-BLAKE
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:26:10 CDT
Comments:     Resending note of Wed,
              6 Jan 1993 15:09:10 PST from Jonathan Fisher
              <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Uncl: Re: Uncl: school daze

From:
*** Resending note of 01/06/93 17:38

From Jonathan
I just wonder what you would have said had the Clinton's decided that
public school was the best choice for their daughter?

From Robert
I had assumed that they would have done exactly that.  I wouldn't have
been at all surprised.  Their decision to place her in private school,
even though I agree with it, wasn't expected.  I would imagine that I'm
not alone.

On a related note:  It is now Oklahoma's turn to waste a lot of money and
children's minds on Outcome Based Education (OBE).  This farce of an
educational program is scheduled to be fully implemented statewide by
next fall.  Even though is has been a proven failure in many states and
also in Canada, Oklahoma is going to have to find it out the old fashioned
way (at the expense of the children).

The mathematics objectives will shift from exact answers, to estimates.
When the woman, I forget her name, that is in charge of Tulsa Public School
curriculum planning was asked about this, she replied:  estimates are all
they really need, if they want exact answers they can use a calculator.

Now I don't know about all you academic sorts out there, but this Joe Average
finds this completely unacceptable.  Also, neatness and spelling on
classwork and homework will no longer matter.  In fact, it will not matter
if homework is turned in at all.  Letter grades will no longer be used.
The sole criteria for passing will be whether the laboratory rat (student)
is able to demonstrate an 80 percent absorption of a unit's material.

If anyone is working in the OBE environment, or has experience with it, I
would appreciate hearing your observations/opinions.

---Robert
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:54:10 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      Re: Addiction as Disease
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Jan 6, 93 10:41 am

I have "genetic predisposition" to laziness.

Will I have any special rights or treatment?
Can I claim a "minority status"?

Caius
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:39:32 EST
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: it's a wonderful life

>From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>

>Ah, but I hear rumblings that the EPA report is bad science, that 2/3
>of the studies on second hand smoke don't substantiate or contradict
>the EPA's findings, that the report is motivated more by politics than
>protection.

Yes, I hear these rumblings too.
Unfortunately, I hear them from Phillip Morris.

I am viscerally on Todd...'s side here, but I would hate to rely
on testimony from tobacco companies. They haven't been very
reliable provenders of scientific information.

Jamie
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re:      Uncl: Re: the biBle
Date: 7 Jan 1993 13:11 PST
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: world
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <19930106.154224.sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet>,      
   Robert Moss <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET> writes...
>From:
>*** Resending note of 01/06/93 12:08
> 
>From Jonathan
>The bible is a bunch of made-up stories written by old men and it has no
>semblance of truth in it.
> 
>From Robert
>Thank you Jonathan, for that brilliant display of blasphemy.  There will
>come a day when every knee shall bend and every tongue will confess the
>one true living "G"od.  Even you.

My stepbrother once gave me a booklet entitled "Words to Live By".  The
contents read, "Never argue with crazy people."  In this case, I believe that
declining to argue with thickheaded people also applies, and therefore, I will
leave this issue alone, other than to remind Mr. Moss of Hamlet's words to
Horatio, "There are more wonders [?] in heaven and earth/Than are dreamed of in
your philosophy."

							Dan, ad nauseum
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:46:21 CST
From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> As for the state of Ohio, a number of leading lawmakers here (from the
> governor on down) have gone on record of opposing Kevorkian.  The
> Summit County prosecutor, Lynn Slaby, has said that he will charge
> Kevorkian with practicing without a license if Kevorkian holds
> consultations with people.
>
    if all he does is talk to people, how then can he be practicing
w/o a license? i really don't see how they can hassle him for that.

> As for Kevorkian himself, if his patients are ONLY the terminally ill,
> then I have no quarrel with him.  But, I'm worried about the mentally ill,
> the alcoholic or drug addicted, or teenagers who have decided to kill
> themselves.  Shouldn't they be helped through their problems instead of
> helping them to kill themselves?
>
> Evelyn

   the terminally ill are exactly the kind of people he deals with. as
far as i can tell, the policies and procedures he uses are very ethical.

   and as for the others you mention, i could not agree with you more.
my take on the matter is this; my grandfather died last year, of liver
cancer. it was not a good experience for anyone involved. if he had so
desired, i would have helped him on myself; because seeing him in that
much pain, knowing that there was no hope of recovery, hurt far more
than having him die.

   sometimes it is an act of mercy to help someone "go gentle into
that good night".

rtf
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:34:35 CDT
Comments:     Resending note of 06 Jan 93 16:31:09 CDT from <SPRG0002@TULSAJC>
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Uncl: school daze

From: sprg0002@tulsajc
*** Resending note of 01/06/93 16:30
Date: 06 Jan 93 16:31:09 CDT
From:  <SPRG0002@TULSAJC>


From Fred
Robert lets out some sort of cry of ecstacy upon discovering that the
first child will attend private school. I'm sure this is a long standing
tradition among first children. Why do you point it out at this time?
Do your children attend public or private school? What does this have
to do with politics?.........

From Robert
Carter's daughter went to public school.

I point it out because it's one more knick in the shining armor of
Billary.  Mr. Gonna-Rebuild-Public-Education wants nothing to do
with it.  I don't blame him, in fact I'm happy for his daughter.  It
was indeed a wise parental decision, albeit quite inconsistent with
his campaign trail image.  I'd say that yet another character flaw in
our illustrious president-elect has a lot to do with politics.

Yes, my daughter does attend private school.
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:15:33 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Organization: Institute of Computer Science, Jagellonian University Cracow
Subject:      Re: Privatizations and standard of living
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              Jan 9, 93 1:22 pm

Tim Johnson pisze:

>>   Tell me, Caius, what is the economic situation in
>> eastern germany like, now that the economy has been
>> privatized?  Better?  The locals don't think so.
>>
>>   What is the FACT in that case?
>>
>>                               -Tim

Not ALL locals don't think so, but let's talk about those that don't:


The East Germans demand Western standards of living AND Eastern Standars of
Working.

They believed that the unification would solve all their economic problems
and now they feel disappointed.

The exchange rate of 1 Eastern Mark for 1 DM of had added some confusion.

The FACTS are:

privatization has some immediate effects:
 1) you can buy almost everything in place of
    economy-of-constant-eficiencies-and-queues (you, Westerners, do not
    understand that. American journalists expected hotels to work
    properly in Somalia)

 2) you have to work harder to pay for all your old and *new* needs
    if you do so, you will experience some increase of your living standards

and long-term effects:
 3) substantial increase of living standards

Most the problems of the Eastern Germans come from confusion of short- and
long-term effects of privitizing the economy. They do not try to understand
that the prosperity of the Western Germany was a consequence of good economic
system *AND* hard work of its citizens.

Caius.
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:10:55 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Quota laws, allegedly; and evidence
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>Ok, on to quotas, if any.
>
>Jamie: (note--herein, Brett's comments are preceded by
>        odd numbers of ">", my quoted ones by even numbers of ">")
>
>>>Murder laws are put into place in order to socially engineer society
>>>to prevent supposed wrongs that might occur. Agree or disagree?
>
>>    No, they are there to punish offenders *after* the crime has been
>> committed.
>
>All laws are there to do that. Discrimination law too.

        Nope.  Some discrimination laws are clearly meant to rectify
"problems" for which there is no proof:

        Laws that decree you have to rent to anyone who hands you a check.
Clearly this is a pro-active law designed to prevent discrimination.  Yet what
it does is assume that all landlords will discriminate if given the chance.

        Let's look at a similar law (hypothetical, at this point) for guns:
everyone who purchases a gun must submit to yearly polygraphs to "prove" they
committed no crimes with them.  Clearly proactive in that it assumes all gun
buyers will committ crimes, if given the chance.

        Such a law would not be surprising given the trend towards "guilty
until proven innocent".

>>>First claim: that the current laws are ineffective.
>>>No evidence.
>
>> Check the ratio of minorities in various professional fields.  Do you
>> think this is the result of "effective" laws?
>
>I think it is the result of partially effective laws. Just as
>laws against murder are partially effective. Whereas capital
>punishment is not effective at all.

        So the current laws are ineffective *given the stated goal of leveling
the playing field*.  You may come to a different conclusion, but you can't
reject that claim simply because you like the current laws.

>>       First claim: no *dis*proof.
>
>!
>I will leave it to Peter to DISprove the claim. He knows a
>great deal more about the statistics than I do.

        Fine I'll let others reply to the rest of this message then.  Note that
this is not "ignoring", but "delagating". :)

Brett'
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:54:44 -0500
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Uncl: Re: Uncl: school daze

Hi, y'all:
Robert M. offered the following excerpts:

>From Robert
>The following excerpts are from the article which ran in the Tulsa World
>Jan. 3, 93.
>
>    Math's emphasis will change beginning with fifth grade.  Instead
>    of computing with pencil and paper, students will spend more time
>    learning how to estimate results and use calculators.
>
>    "There is still a need for exact numbers, but those can be
>     figured with hand-held calculators"
>                  - Gwen Humphrey, curriculum manager, Tulsa Pub Schools

FYI, I asked some of our best mathematics profs about this a while ago.
They assured me that kids actually learn better "number sense" (by this I
mean the ability to know, after crunching through a long calculation using
a calculator, whether or not you've hit a wrong key and screwed up the
problem) and *also* achieve better accuracy on pencil-and-paper
calculations using this approach.  Honest -- and I asked because the whole
idea seemed really screwy to me.  If you're interested, I can probably find
some additional sources for you.

>    "...It doesn't matter how many homework assignments are completed
>     or how neat the student's work looks."
>                  - Jon Sisson, principal

Hm.  Offhand, I'd say this is pretty screwy.  Is any rationale offered for
this one?

Kerry
who *hates* sloppy work, and cheerfully flunks students who don't hand
their work on time and don't proofread their papers :)
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:39:15 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      boring
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Jan 5, 93 1:31 pm

Ellen.Edgerton pisze:
>>
>> Caius, I know this is an ad hominem attack, but please don't take it
>> personally:
>>
>> YOU ARE SO BORING!!!!!

Don't read the postings!

>> Have a nice day.     :)

Thank you, have a nice day too!

Caius
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:35:33 CDT
From:         Robert Moss <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      Uncl: re: school daze
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

From: robert  sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet

from KAT
1. Calculators are as cheap as $2.00 these days.

From Robert
Is that an estimate?

From KAT
                 ........... Either the cash register would
determine the change or the clerk has to use a calculator.  Under
no circumstances these days do clerks have to use pen and paper.
If the clerk is to figure out the change in his head, that is
actually more of a estimating type than carrying the calculation
on a piece of paper.

From Robert
Apparently, you've been much luckier than I when it comes to dealing
with retail clerks.  Amazing as it seems, there are many establishments
without smart cash registers.  This places the clerks in the position of
actually having to make change.  Sometimes, this requires a quick
mental calculation.

Have you never given a clerk "odd pennies" in order to avoid a pocket
full of change? For instance, you would hand the clerk $2.02 for a
purchase of $1.77.  When you do this in some establishments, the entire
process collapses.  The ire of those behind you in line scorches the
back of your neck.  You must remember, most of the minimum wage, low
skill, retail clerk types are products of public education.  Personally,
I feel much better when it's obvious that they actually *KNOW* the
answer to such a simple problem.

Robert
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:43:20 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: school daze
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>Robert lets out some sort of cry of ecstacy upon discovering that the
>first child will attend private school. I'm sure this is a long standing
>tradition among first children. Why do you point it out at this time?
>Do your children attend public or private school? What does this have
>to do with politics? I wouldn't be surprised if the soon to be former
>first dog went to a private school. Do you suppose we have to pay for
>first dog food and first kitty litter? :)
>
>fred

        Clinton has been a supporter of public schools.  Sending his kid to a
private one thus appears hypocritical.

Brett'
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