From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: girl/woman = guy/man? (WAS: Sexist Incidents)
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:52:42 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <MUFFY.92Sep3103021@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>In article <7439@skye.ed.ac.uk> jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>>In article <715423078.17379@minster.york.ac.uk> aaron@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
>
>>>best to use the word "woman" as a substitute (and mean it and not just as
>>>a vacuous substitution when the speaker would still rather use the 
>>>derogatory term "girl"). 
>
>>So in addition to saying something something different, we have to
>>mean something different?  If what we say is of so little importance,
>>why can't we just mean something different (which I already do)?
>
>I don't think that the previous poster was saying that what you say is
>unimportant.  I think the point was that if you don't *mean* what you
>say, then it is pointless to make the change.

I didn't say "unimportant" but rather "so little importance".  Of
course, this may still misrepresent the previous poster; but not
by so much.

In any case, if the previous poster was saying it's pointless to
change only what you say, the previous poster was wrong.  If women
are offended or annoyed at being called girls, it must make things
at least a little better of they're _not_ called girls, even if the
person not calling them girls secretly thinks "girl" and does a
quick edit just before speaking.

(It's also wrong, BTW, to assume that someone who secretly thinks
"girl" means something derogatory by it.)

However, if someone thinks that really it does no good to change what
one says, how can they avoid concluding that all that really matters
is what you mean?  And if that's so, why can't we just change what
we mean?

>Unfortunately, the people you are speaking to have to determine what you
>mean from the words you use.  If those words mean something specific to
>them (such as "calling an adult female human a 'girl' is usually
>derogatory"), then that is the meaning they will perceive, regardless of
>what was going on in your head when you produced the sentence.

I say something reasonably similar in another message.  So I agree
with you there.

>Now, this doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) have to change what
>you're doing, but you wanted to know why you couldn't just mean
>something different.

Not really.  I wanted to know _if_ what we say is of so little
importance, why can't we just mean something different.

>  You *can*, but it's unlikely that most people will
>*know* it unless you change your language to match, since all we know is
>what words you use, not what is going on in your head.  An alternative
>is to continually put disclaimers in, or explain yourself later, but
>that seems to be more trouble than just changing the words you use.

Right.  So you agree with me that it can make a difference what we
say and not just what we mean, and not with the point you thought
the previous poster was making.

But before I sound too PC, let me say that I don't think "girl"
is necessarily any worse than "guy".  An alternative to no longer
saying "girl" is for people to stop thinking of it as derogatory.
A less likely alternative, perhaps, but still an available one.

-- jd