HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Good writing (was Re: Piers Anthony)
From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:15:41 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

In article <jWt-lQA@engin.umich.edu> rcj@engin.umich.edu (R o d Johnson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep15.021629.6667@math.ucla.edu> troly@redwood.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep14.224831.12090@spss.com> markrose@spss.com 
>>(Mark Rosenfelder) writes:
>
>>>Authors may also want to edify, to outrage, to disturb, to puzzle, to 
>>>challenge, to indulge themselves, to create pity and terror.  Is your
>>>main reaction to Joyce or Kafka or Ellison that you feel "entertained"?
>>                                    ^^^^^^^
>>   What the hell is Ellison doing in this list?  Are you yanking us?
>>Or have you never read Joyce or Kafka?
>
>I'm sure Mark has read Joyce and Kafka.  I assume he's referring to
>Ralph Ellison, since this seems to be a list of non-skiffy writers.

Either will do.  Surely you don't lay down _Invisible Man_ with the
thought, "Boy, that was *fun*; I certainly feel *entertained*."  There is
entertainment there, but Ralph E. was attempting something more, and would
presumably be disappointed if it wasn't achieved.  Harlan E. is also,
I take it, more interested in shaking up his readers than entertaining them.

Actually, I find the Harlan variety of Ellison rather obnoxious.  But I
wouldn't call him a bad writer because of that; if I don't like him that
could be just as much because of my reading as because of his writing.
From: louzon@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Louzon ronald g)
Subject: Fen voting?? (was HUGO Awards)
Summary: What is fen voting??
Reply-To: louzon@aplcen (Louzon ronald g)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:56:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.235105.21275@athena.mit.edu> jen@athena.mit.edu (Jennifer Hawthorne) writes:
>>I couldn't stand the book which Bujold won the Hugo for in 1989
>>(_Falling Free_). In fact that book single-handedly (or quadrup-
>>pled-handedly) cured me of any illusions that fen voting =
>>value & worth. 
>>

Okay, I give up.  Just what the hell is fen voting??  Inquiring minds
want to know.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Subject: Re: Arthur Clarke quote (help!)
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:55:31 GMT

In article <2418@unet.UUCP> stan@shakespeare.uucp (Stan Heller) writes:

>I am trying to track down a quote attributed to
>Arthur C. Clarke-
>	" The past is prologue..."

"What's past is prologue."  Arthur C Clarke, The Tempest, Act II, scene i.
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: _Fire Upon the Deep_ jokes? (PUN SPOILERS)
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:10:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

"Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu>:
>Around the very end of the book, when Vinge shoved it in my face, I
>finally noticed the pun in Lord Flenser's name... 
>This led me to look for other awful jokes...

You've got it wrong.  The names are intended neither as puns nor as jokes.
Tines' names are descriptive, and are being translated literally.  There is
plenty of Earth precedent for this.  Woodcarver, btw, started life out as
a wood-working artist.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
From: gouvea@zariski.harvard.edu (Fernando Gouvea)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:28:31 GMT
Organization: Colby College Dept. of Math/CS

>|> JWC award - Ted Chang (?)
>
>   Oh no.  I read 3 stories by him so far, and they ranged from
>   fair to ridiculous.  His "Tower of Babylon"(?) was a competently
>   written yarn of null substance, his "Division by Zero" went
>   nowhere (a mathematician proves arithmetic inconsistent and
>   goes into a depression), and "Understand" topped it all by 
>   inducing me into bursts of uncontrollable laughter with some
>   of the worst passages I have yet seen in Science Fiction.
>   Chang seems to think he comprehends abstract math concepts,
>   but "Understand" abounds with hilarious examples of utter
>   nonsense wherever a math term appears.  Each story is based
>   on a sophomoric premise, and none transcends it.

Could you give me a reference to "Understand"? I always like to track down
mathematical SF stories...

I agree totally, by the way, on "Division by Zero". It even seems to me
that any real logician would be utterly delighted to prove that arithmetic
was inconsistent...



-- 
============================================================================
Fernando Q. Gouvea				fqgouvea@colby.edu
Dept. of Math/CS				(207)-872-3278
Colby College					Mudd 407
From: sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D. Hurley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Glen Cook's next Black Company Book
Date: 10 Sep 1992 22:21:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Yes, I would also like to know when _Glittering_Stone_ will be
published.  I find the _Annals_of_the_Black_Company_ series
to be absolutely exquisite.  Glen Cook is one of the only authors
that I know of that can successfully use the first person 
approach to writing.

-- 
"You've changed the past Louise, and you know Damn Well we can't
 change the past--we change with it!" - - Coventry in 'Millenium'
"In any universe where time travel is possible . . . eventually
 there will arise a history without time travel." --Larry Niven
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: markg@pdx804 (Mark Gonzales)
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Keywords: scientists, SF writers
Organization: Intel Corp., Hillsboro, Oregon
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:38:09 GMT

In article <1030@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>[...]  Pournell and Niven have made reference to this little
>advisory group several times in speeches to fan groups.
>[...]
>They were, according to Pournell anyway, a major factor in starting a
>certain low key space project the government is funding (*not* through
>NASA either).  [And last I heard it was still active].

I seem to remember that Niven claimed that Star Wars was his idea (in
N-space). That was the point when I lost all respect for him and his
sidekick. He should have realized that even if you suceeded in blowing
up incoming missiles, the debris, including pounds of plutonium, doesn't
just disappear. I'm sure that having millions of lethal doses of
plutonium sprayed into the atmosphere is almost as bad an outcome as a
bunch of nuclear explosions.

Anyway, writers of Niven-style wish fulfilment science fiction are about
the last group that the gov't should be listening to for input on
multi-billion dollar projects - what's wrong with listening to
professional engineers for a change?

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: aestens@epx.cis.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: Heinlein stories ?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:47:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.004336.19970@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.163459.8627@pbhyc.PacBell.COM>, djdaneh@pbhyc (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep10.025827.9894@colorado.edu> robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:
>>
>>>1. "Window to the Stars"
>>
>>Hard to say -- the most probable would be TUNNEL IN THE SKY, but that's
>>pushing it a little.
>
>That was my first thought, too.

Sounds good
>
>What about that story with the TP twin brothers; one goes out in space
>& the other stays home?  The name escapes me, but I /think/ it was
>something like that (just discussed on the net, too :-/  ).

"Time for the Stars"


  Alan S. Estenson..............aka Mycroft Holmes                    
  Aerospace Engineering....Aestens@epx.cis.umn.edu                    
  University of Minnesota, Institute of Technology                    
 => "Custom reconciles us to everything." -Edmund Burke
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 13 Sep 1992 22:53:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mweinste@pearl.tufts.edu () says:

>Is anyone out there a Piers Anthony fan?  I prefer his fantasy to his
>sci-fi, but that's because I generally like the fantasy genre better.
>I've read all of the Xanth books, the Apprentice Adept books, the
>Incarnations series, and Firefly (perhaps his best yet!).  Every one
>of his books is fun, impossible to put down, and filled with excitement.
>Anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of reading Anthony should pick up one
>of his books... let me know if you are interested, I can make some 
>recommendations.  If you are already an Anthony fan, leave me a reply
>and we can compare notes.

Are you serious, or just joking?
-- 
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
| Damien Neil | dpn2@po.cwru.edu | Case Western Reserve University |
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
From: lhb6v@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Upcoming in June
Date: 15 Sep 92 02:23:52 GMT

In article <43953@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> ccmj@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Claire Jones) writes:
>In article <9209131036.AA50205@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU>, lhb6v@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard) writes:
>> Want.  Want *now*.  Want _Door into Starlight_ before the end of
>> the millenium, too.  Except that it's probably going to be really
>> depressing, as I suspect a good portion of our cast isn't going
>> to make it to the end.

>When she couldn't even bring herself to kill off Sunspark in the first
>books I don't think she has the nerve to kill anyone much off.
>Logically you are right though with all those flame holders due
>to die young and all those comments about the Kings of Arlen dying
>``in harness''...but surely Freelorn has to leave an heir and isn't
>going to leave an uninitiated baby behind after what he went through.

Yeah, but Sunspark's from a different plane and an elemental, the rules
aren't the same.

By the logic of the flame and the themes of all the stories they are
re-enacting (and by virtue of having a father and a heir :)) Herewiss
certainly seems doomed, and if is, then logically so is Freelorn.
Segnabora is another possibility, but doesn't seem likely.

Not that I *want* them to die, mind you, it's just that Duane seems
to be heavily foreshadowing a tragic ending. And it is called
'Door into Starlight', after all.

Laura
From: mjd@saul.cis.upenn.edu ("[*] Spirit of the Air")
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: An unenviable position
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:50:08 GMT
	<MJD.92Sep14092600@saul.cis.upenn.edu>
	<1992Sep14.151925.20532@newshost.unh.edu>
Followup-To: alt.non.sequitur
Organization: Eaters of Wisdom
In-reply-to: clc@kepler.unh.edu's message of 14 Sep 92 15:19:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.151925.20532@newshost.unh.edu> clc@kepler.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn) writes:
>   >    You know, under most circumstances I'd agree with you, but don't you
>   >think maybe the phenomenon has something to do with that Piers Anthony
>   >is trash-seping bilge monster who can't write?
>   Let's be fair.  He smells, too.

Yeah, and I'm told that he's a cracker-eater.
--

                And for to se, and eek for to be seye
Mark-Jason Dominus 	  			    mjd@central.cis.upenn.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clc@bofur.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn)
Subject: Re: Heinlein stories ?
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 05:23:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.025827.9894@colorado.edu> robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH) writes:
>Would someone please provide pointers to the following,
>*supposedly* by Heinlein, e.g., a book the short story is in.
>
>1. "Window to the Stars"
>

Dunno this one.

>2. "4-D House"
I think you mean "And He Built a Crooked House," one of Heinlein's only
decent short stories, IMHO.  I realize that Heinlein attacks lead to holy wars,
so I'll lay off, but 
	"20 Classic Science Fiction Stories" had it in there, as well as
	"Space Odessey" which was published by an obscure Czech press but
contained some decent stuff.  "Crooked House" is a pretty common one.  Check
your library.

					clc


-- 
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From: Fritz.Niespodziany@p4.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org (Fritz Niespodziany)
Sender: postmaster@p2.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ya can't keep 'em down!
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:01:23 GMT
Reply-To: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, murphy@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy) says:

>
> >In Armor, Steakley steals Heinlein's world (yes, steals...he gives
> >no credit where credit is due.)
> >
> >He hacks out all of what made Starship Troopers unique, . . .
> >
> >Starship Troopers and Armor have NOTHING in common except the general
> >elements of the setting.
> >
> >dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
>
>damien, please reconcile these conflicting statements so that your article
>will at least _appear_ to be logical.  thank you.
>
What is conflicting? I make the point
      a) Armor uses the world (i.e. setting) of Starship Troopers.
I then state
      b) The setting is the only thing in common between the two.

What is the conflict? I said that the setting is stolen, and nothing else.
The plot is not stolen, the characters are not stolen, but the general
basis of the world IS.

Please tell me where the conflict is.
-- 
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
| Damien Neil | dpn2@po.cwru.edu | Case Western Reserve University |
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
From: pv@gagme.chi.il.us (Paul Vader)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Date: 13 Sep 92 02:03:29 GMT
Organization: Inline Software Creations
Originator: pv@gagme

daynem@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller) writes (in part):
>Niven and Pournelle, in FOOTFALL, mention a Threat Team (the "Dreamer
>Fithp") that's composed of several writers of SF that advise the federal
>gov't. in  times of unusual crisis. I believe Niven makes reference to a
>similar group  in one of his short stories (maybe in the LIMITS
>collection??).
>
>Is there any evidence to suggest that such an organization may exist, either
>actively or in a contingency-based set-up?

In Pournelle's column in the premiere issue of "Science Fiction Age" he
mentions the Citizen's Council on Space Policy, which has apparently met
since since 1981 at Larry Niven's house. Besides "a whole bunch of generals,
politicians, and scientists," it also consists of Larry Niven (obviously),
Robert Heinlein, Greg Bear, Poul Anderson, Harry Stine, Jim Baen and Jerry
Pournelle. He also mentions in passing that a spaceship conceived by this
council will fly this year (does anybody know anything about that last bit?).

I'm going to have to dig Footfall out of storage to see if any of these
people are parodied in the dreamer scenes.

On a more serious vein, I'm not sure I like this idea. SF writers as a
subspecies are probably overfond of using technology as a cure for
everything. Witness Pournelle's pitiful cheerleading of Star Wars (the
warmongering, not the movie) in recent years. At least some of the writers
on this list have respectful standing as scientists and might be within
reach of a clue. And why should book editors be put in charge of *anything*?
PV

Preliminary review: The columns in SF Age are quite good, but the two
stories I've read so far would fit better in a fanzine. Someone should hire
a proofreader. The layout and artwork is well done. If somebody flips over
the style/substance ratio, this could be a great 'zine.
-- 
Paul Vader           Systems Analyst, semi-lurker, Rollerblader,
pv@gagme.chi.il.us   ex-Zen poet, and bleeding-heart liberal
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: John Steakly (sp?) books
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:54:00 GMT
Reply-To: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, TJS107@psuvm.psu.edu (Sime) says:

>(Please don't give me the "Armor is a rip off of Starship Troopers" line. I've
> read both and if it's supposed to be one of RH's best, I'm dissappointed.
> It's boring as balls.  There's only about 2 chapters max. of combat.  The
> rest of it is the guy taking classes about political bullsquat. Hey, I do that
> in real life, I don't need to read a book about it.  Armor was non-stop
> action for the first 80 or so pages, then picks up again in the last quarter
> or so of it.  However, I will admit that it's just about a remake of ST.
> And to me this is one of those times when the remake blows the original away.)

And I though , that though Armor was a fun read, Starship Troopers blew it
away... To each his own, I guess. :-)
-- 
+-------------+------------------+
| Damien Neil | dpn2@po.cwru.edu | 
+-------------+------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rsm58307@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ron)
Subject: Re: The Elf Queen of Shannara -- Thoughts, and the like -- SPOILERS
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:58:00 GMT

ss1@kepler.unh.edu (The Rink) writes:

>I got to thinking of it as a possibility, actually, but only after Aurin
>Striate, Cort, Dal, Ellenroh, and Eowen bit the dust.  IMHO, it's one of
>the best scenes Brooks has ever written.

>And add one more to the list of those deceased...Hendel in the "Sword".
>Ah, beloved Hendel.  I liked him.  And what about Steff??  It doesn't pay
>to be a dwarf in the Four Lands, does it?  And Keltset, and Carisman, and
>the six mentioned above....  And ALLANON.  Yikes!  :-)

>Thanks!  If anyone has any other comments, please make them!

Poor Garret Jax. <sniff>
I didn't really like ElfQueen tho; I did think the second book (the one
about the black elfstone - although I can't seem to recall the name) was
the best. It was interesting how one character was designed for another.

	- Ron

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: robertm@alumni.cs.colorado.edu (MONTGOMERY ROBERT PH)
Subject: McCaffrey
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 01:34:13 GMT

I'm curious about McCaffrey's works.  I read the first
two Pern books a long ago and was quite bored.  What I
remember is:

very little is happening
very little is happening
a dragon flies around a bit
very little is happening
very little is happening
a dragon flies around a bit
...

Before reading them I had read some books I considered exciting,
with memorable characters, so maybe they overshadowed the Pern
books.

What kind of a reputation does she have on the 'net or
elsewhere?  Does her style vary much?  The Dinosaur Planet books
look like they might be fun, but if they're like the first Pern
books then they're probably not for me.

Thanks for your opinions,

Rob

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: higgins@fnalo.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Doc Smith Question (was Re: Dreamer Fithp)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:46:53 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Sep8.014431.5638@afterlife.ncsc.mil>, acadams@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur C. Adams) writes:
> In article <1992Sep8.011743.5134@afterlife.ncsc.mil> jfzeigl@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Jon Zeigler) writes:
>>
>>Science fiction has come a *long* way since "Doc" Smith earned it a sliver of
>>respectability by being the only major writer with a doctorate. . .
> 
> Just a little trivia question: is it true "Doc" Smith's PhD was for
> inventing powdered sugar for donuts?

Not to my knowledge.  But this is an entertaining garbling of the
facts, and I have been guilty of repeating this story myself...

E.E. Smith had a doctorate in chemistry.  He spent most of his career
working in food chemistry for a doughnut-mix company in Jackson,
Michigan.  It is but a short leap from there to the powdered-sugar
conjecture. (The way I heard it was "he invented a way to make powdered
sugar stick to doughnuts."  Since it doesn't stick very *well*, this
reflects poorly upon Doc's competence.)

I don't know anything about Doc's actual achievements in food
chemistry.  Nice research project for some scholar.

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Upcoming in June
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 03:30:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

lhb6v@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard):
>>but surely Freelorn has to leave an heir...

Advance word is that Segnbora's pregnant with his heir, so it's
okay to kill him now.

>Herewiss certainly seems doomed, and if is, then logically so is Freelorn.
>Segnabora is another possibility, but doesn't seem likely.

Segnbora's death is highly *unlikely*, given that she's cited as a
source for dragon-lore -- presumably after all this is over.  For that
matter, there's reason to expect Herewiss to live, too:  It was Kathy
Li who pointed out to me the name of the author of Nita's magic manual,
in "So You Want to Be a Wizard".

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.
From: tong@ifu.ethz.ch (Tong Longchang)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #446
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:15:30 GMT

Signoff SF-LOVERS Digest
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: How do you know you're in an alternate reality (was Re: Asimov...)
Date: 11 Sep 92 00:34:40 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <BERRY.92Sep8191420@athos.pei.com>, berry@athos (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>(F&SF 'Fake Ad' Contest winner:  "For sale, complete works of Asimov
>on microfiche; must sell, moving to smaller house")

:-D

This reminds me of something I once saw (possibly in F&SF, tho I'm not
sure).  It was the contest winners for "how do you know if you're in
an alternate reality".

The one that I remember implied that the (US) civil war had never really
come to a conclusion, and that on-going fighting had basically prevented
any further expansion west, which was thus still controlled by Native
Americans.  The actual text made it sound like Israel/Palestine &c.

Any pointers on where I could find the text of this would be appreciated!

-- 
The security of the Enterprise is of Paramount importance.
				-J. L. Picard, stardate 45960.2
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written