From: eschneid@sparc48.tamu.edu (Erich R Schneider)
Subject: Re: industrial culture
Organization: Texas A&M University
	<1992Oct30.151921.10864@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
	<1992Oct31.131052.18027@nstn.ns.ca>
	<ESCHNEID.92Oct31221147@sparc53.tamu.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:55:59 GMT

In article <ESCHNEID.92Oct31221147@sparc53.tamu.edu> eschneid@sparc53.tamu.edu (Erich R Schneider) writes:

>In article <1992Oct31.131052.18027@nstn.ns.ca> CS341A002@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki) writes:
>
>>jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu writes:
>>>have to dissent here. "imperialist capitalism" isn't anywhere near a
>>>close second. you're conveniently forgetting "imperialist monarchy/
>>>totaltarianism", which has been around a lot longer than capitalism
>>>and "imperialist socialism" which can claim the biggest butcher of
>>>all time (Stalin) in its ranks.
>>
>>Excuse me? Stalin the biggest butcher of *all time*? I'd put him at #3,
>>behind Ghengis Khan at #2 and Hitler at #1. Probably only slightly ahead of
>>Julius Caesar and Vlad the Impaler.
>
>Excuse me for my lack of ready documentation and possible naivete, but
>I remember being taught that Stalin was directly or indirectly
>responsible for the deaths of several tens of millions of Soviet
>citizens during the really big purges. Something like 25 million is
>what I remember. (If anyone has some real documentation on this and
>I'm wrong, please correct me. If no one does I'll go check myself and
>give a correction.)

I went and did some checking in the _Encyclopedia Britannica_, so once 
again my possible naivete is open to question.

Stalin's biographical article claims "tens of millions" died by his order
during the Great Purges; 20 to 30 million would seem an appropriate number
at this point. 

"International Relations (20th century)" claims that casualty
estimates for World War II range from 35 to 60 million dead; the
problematic point is that civilian losses in China are "dubiously"
estimated at 22 million.  In any case, the country-by-country figures
add up to about 30 million dead in Europe, which is all Hitler can
really be held responsible for.  However, some people may find giving
Hitler responsibility for _all_ the deaths in Europe troublesome, at
least in the context of the "biggest butcher" discussion.

I could find no casuatly estimates for Ghengis Khan's conquests, though
his biographical article said that massacres were undertaken for
various reasons. Vlad "The Impaler" is basically a footnote in the 
history of Wallachia (in Rumania); all that is claimed is that he was
able to hold off the Turks for a while, and that his incredible cruelty
earned him his title. I didn't check about Julius Caesar.

The Armenian massacres I mentioned were the responsibility of the
Ottoman Turks, not the Soviets, and resulted in two to three million
dead.

Based on this, plus my belief that killing one's own citizens counts
against one more if one is accused of being a "butcher", I would rank
Stalin as #1, Hitler as #2, and Pol Pot as #3 for "biggest butchers of
all time".
--
Erich Schneider  eschneid@cs.tamu.edu

"Today/Yes  Winners/Yes Losers/Yes  In the Zone/Yes  Tomorrow/No"
                       - Walter Jon Williams, _HardWired_


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