From: pmwg1641@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peter M. White)
Subject: Re: SR: Alternative dodge rule.
Keywords: shadowrun
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 15:27:16 GMT




>>The point:  how cumbersome a weapon is is an important
>>factor for its close quarter effectiveness.

>Not necessarily.  I shoot handguns.  I own a .22 Ruger pistol and a .45
>ACP pistol.  I find that, while the .22 tends to be more accurate at long
>ranges, it would be of little or no use in a combat situation (its just
>too easy to bat out of the way).  By the same token, the .45 is a BIG gun
>that fires BIG slugs.  Its unwieldy as hell, but I'd rather have that with
>me in a combat situation than a smaller gun.

Good point.  I am particularly thinking about "burst into the room, where's
the target?" situations, though, where wieldiness will matter the most.
Would you prefer to go up against someone with a handgun with, say, a hunting
rifle indoors instead of with a handgun also?  Probably not.

>The difference between combat with a light gun and a heavy gun is that,
>when you fire a light pistol at someone, the shot needs to be fairly care-
>fully aimed or it will a) pass right through the body, causing less than
>impressive damage (light caliber rounds do not expand), or b) it will
>hit an extremity and likewise not cause any significant damage.  With
>a heavy pistol, you take less time to aim because you really don't care
>where the shot hits; a .45 slug has a great deal of stopping power, and,
>even if a hit is not lethal, it'll definitely knock you on your ass.

>>Unfortunately, SR uses weapon power level as the target for
>>dodging.  Ridiculous.  There is simply no basis for asserting
>>that a light pistol is easy to dodge; if anything, it would be
>>nearly impossible.  And it can not possibly get any easier than
>>evading our friendly troll's cannon blast.

>Before you get all bunged up over this, remember that the accuracy of
>a gunshot is factored into the damage that it does.  Though the system
>hardly parallels the real world, its pretty logical to assume that,
>if the shooter's proficiency with the gun can cause more damage, the
>victim's ability to dodge should reduce damage.

I agree.

>Furthermore, I have to disagree with you insofar as your assumption that
>it is near impossible to dodge a light pistol round and easy as pie
>to dodge an assault cannon round.  Having fired my .22 pistol at live
>game, and also having fired a .30-06 (a poor relation to an assault cannon,
>but, nevertheless, the parallel is there) at live game, I find that they
>dodge out of the way of the pistol FAR more easily than they do the
>rifle.  Reason?  The rifle shell travels perhaps ten orders of magnitude
>faster than the pistol shell, and aim with a pistol is, at best, erratic.

Very good points.  Justifiable or not, I am equating basic "how quickly
can a gun be pointed in a new direction" with speed of aiming (though 
not necessarily ease of aiming effectively) with ease of dodging.
The last step may be big illogical leap.  I am assuming the typical
effectiveness of a bullet is striking is adequately described by
the damage code.  Then I am unceremoniously shoving a reaction time effect
into a dodge rule.  Not very realistic, admittedly.  I wanted to avoid
messing with the initiative rules.  I am not really trying to say
anything about the relative ease of aiming or accuracy.  I am concerned
with the speed of pointing.

As far as travel time, a merely speed of sound projectile will cross
3 meters, a reasonable indoor firefight distance, in about 10 milliseconds.
Not much time to get ot of the way.  Yes, these can be big effects for
hunting, but I do not think so here.

>Nope.  An assault rifle is best suited to combat in which you want to
>fire damaging shells at a high rate of fire.  I am told that, in the
>Vietnam War, nearly all squad level firefights (that is, firefights
>involving assault rifles) took place at ranges of fifty feet or less.
>I hardly consider that long range.  If you want something effective for
>long range, look into a sniper rifle or a hunting rifle.  The SR rules
>are fairly accurate in this regard.

>The only purpose of an SMG is to get off a great many rounds in a short
>period of time.  Range is seldom a consideration, as SMGs fire pistol
>ammunition which has minimal effective range at best.

I will happily accept your analysis of the various weapon classes as superior.
I think it supports, rather than disputes, my qualitative reasoning.
Consider an SMG vs. an assault rifle in moderate sized room.  The
SMG shold be the weapon of choice, especially in surprise attacks.
I think some Israeli commandoes would agree here.  My rule suggestions
are intended to reflect this in a consistent manner.  SR rules simply
do not.

>I think you're trying to make your game WAY too realistic.  Shadowrun,
>while relying heavily on an element of realism, is, after all, a cinem-
>atic game.  You don't need to incorporate rules like this into such
>a game: it would make combat even more lengthy than it is already.

Always important points to consider when changing rules.  Is this the
case here?  Well, it does create a meaningful dodge which will lengthen
combat.  Remembering a, perhaps, logical progression of target numbers
is the only new requirement, and really quite easy compared to remembering
damage codes.  I mainly like my dodge rule because it _increases_ the 
cinematic feel.  How many of your favorite fictional heroes have evaded 
being turned into hamburger by dodging out of the way?  Dodging, without
the intervention of karma, will basically never succeed when the character
really needs it against high power weapons, which is why I included
the intro story:  If Choirboy fires first, the runner is deadmeat.

I think we would agree on the bottom line:  How does it play?  That
is why I like my new rules; they play well.  Dodging used to be totally
mindless and futile.  Players have something to look forward to, now.

Thanks for the input.

pmwg1641@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

P.S.  Upon consideration, the target numbers are definitely too low
with SR refreshing pools.  Raising them +1 may be sufficient.