From: Indonesia Publications/Task Force <apakabar@igc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:10 PDT
Subject: East Timor - Aug 12 - II
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1591800221:000:22665
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!apakabar    Aug 12 19:10:00 1992


From: Indonesia Publications/Task Force <apakabar>
Subject: East Timor - Aug 12 - II

/* Written  6:56 pm  Aug 12, 1992 by apakabar in cdp:reg.indonesia */
/* ---------- "Belo 'Matra' Interview - 1" ---------- */


Remark: The poster has done a service by translating this remarkably
frank interview by Mgr Belo.  My own reading of the entire article in
the original Indonesian leads me to a slightly different interpretation,
however, of Belo's position.  He appears to argue that he personally 
can get along within Indonesia, but the matter really is up to the
East Timorese people to decide through a referendum.  As a man of the
Church, he feels East Timor's political status is outside his proper
domain.  His several remarks on the likely outcome of a referendum
seem in fact in some conflict, perhaps the result of not always
entirely precise phrases which occur in any conversation, and the entire 
thrust of his very critical remarks on Indonesian and military governance 
in East Timor hardly provide even a weak argument that East Timorese 
would _freely_ vote in favor of integration.  He is instead prescribing 
a _short term_ limited autonomy in which the military would return to 
their barracks and ideally withdraw from the territory, largely leaving 
East Timorese to conduct their own affairs in this period.  As a 
practical matter, he doesn't seem to expect this will happen, since
he sees so many structural impediments in the path toward a 'freer'
democracy.  While he usefully points up cleavages among East Timorese
on many basic matters, he generally blames the resulting conflicts
on Indonesians, especially the military.  In brief, he sees his role
as trying to provide hope amidst prevailing pessimism, that is to say, 
his fundamental position is pastoral in nature, not political.  Matra
also carries a good deal of biographic background on Belo not heretofore
available which is in synchrony with his outlook in the interview.
Overall, Belo, speaking quite astutely and sharply in simple Indonesian, 
seems very willing to take on all comers and 'speak truth to power.'  
No wonder that he and outgoing Governor Mario Carrascalao are considered 
'soulmates.'
  -- John (apakabar@igc.apc.org)


Forwarded from GreenNet reg.easttimor conference:
Topic 354'Matra' interviews Belo: Part I
gn:tapolreg.easttimor11:38 pm  Aug 12, 1992

Matra interview of Bishop Belo: Part I

BISHOP BELO INTERVIEWED BY 'MATRA'

'We want more freedom'

The following interview of Carlos Filipe Ximenes Belo, Bishop
of Dili, was published by the Jakarta monthly, Matra, in
August 1992.

Shortly after this interview appeared, Jawa Pos which has a
correspondent in Dili, reproduced excerpts from it. In an
introduction, the paper commented that following the 12
November 'incident', the Bishop was interviewed several times
by the paper. Recently however, the Bishop said he only wanted
to be interviewed about religious and spiritual affairs. The
day after the Matra interview appeared, Jawa Pos again sought
an interview with him but was refused. This interview shows
why Bishop Belo is so angry with the Indonesian press.

Comment: From this interview it appears that Bishop Belo is
resigned to accepting integration though he insists that a
referendum is necessary to legitimise it. He apparently
believes that a referendum would result in a victory for
integration though he says nothing to explain why.

                   ----------------------

Q:   This bay here makes the place romantic, Monseigneur.
A:   This town has long stopped being romantic. But, yes, it
looks quite calm.

Q:   Perhaps this house is the safest place around?
A:   Ha... ha... ha! Yes, conditions here are unsettled. There
is still something wrong.

Q:   What's wrong, in your opinion?
A:   The people of East Timor must be able to live in an
atmosphere where they feel they have a place, that they are
human beings, that they are being given attention; they must
be given the freedom to be complete human beings. These
conditions can be achieved if physical and material
development is accompanied by human development. That's what
is not yet happening here.

Q:   Human development? What do you mean?
A:   People should have the freedom to move, the freedom to
think, the freedom to express their opinions. The freedom to
say that there are things they don't like. There is no such
democracy yet. We have to start teaching democracy at the
lowest level, at primary school. If people live in a democracy
they will happily get involved in working for progress. The
important thing now is to give them the key, to become
involved. What I have noticed recently is that people have
closed up more than ever. They have become more and more
closed. This is happening here. I sometimes even feel that
society is very apathetic. People at the top say everything's
OK, everything's alright, and the people answer in unison,
saying yes, everything's alright, everything's OK.

Q:   From what you hear and feel, what is it that lies deep in
the hearts of the people?
A:   This is something basic. People feel that this is their
region, their home. They consider themselves to be the ones
who own this place and they want to be placed in a proper
position as the owners. They say, we must be able to feel that
we are the owners of our own home.

Q:   But what actually happens?
A:   We Timorese behave like robots. We're told go here, or to
go there. But we cannot see who is telling us to do this. They
are playing behind the scenes.

Q:   As far as you know, what has the government done for the
people?
A:   The government has indeed done things for the community,
especially for the small folk. I would like development to be
focused on the more remote places. But the most important
thing is that people in the towns and the villages must feel
that development is for them. Who is the asphalt road in Dili
for? Who is that luxury building for? Who uses it?

Q:   Are you saying that development is not for the people?
A:   The infrastructure achieves its target though not yet
perfectly. Let's hope that in the next phase, the desires and
aspirations of the community will be fulfilled. The most
important thing of all is that we want to be a little freer.
This is something very fundamental. Not free from Indonesia
but free as citizens of this country. Others are free in Java;
those living in Maluku are free. We also want to be as free as
they are, here in East Timor. Not like the present, when I
feel freer in Jakarta than here in Dili. This means that
there's something wrong.

Q:   Have there been any efforts to struggle for this freedom?
A:   Oh yes, within the limits possible. The leaders and the
people are afraid to strive for freedom. Ha... ha... ha!
Indeed, people's representatives who should speak up in fact
say nothing. I don't know who is to blame. Maybe it's our
fault for choosing people who are afraid (to speak up) as
representatives of the people. That's what our democracy has
led to. Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   If that's the case, the basic question isn't integration?
A:   For me, no. I think that being part of Indonesia is no
longer a problem. The problem is, how this young region called
East Timor can grow up. If there are those who still make an
issue of integration, that's their problem. For me, the
problem is no longer integration.

Q:   At present, there are still groups that make an issue of
integration. As leader of the religious community, don't their
activities worry you?
A:   Yes, they are still with us. It doesn't worry me. I want
to be a democrat. As a democrat, everyone from the extreme
right to the extreme left will have a place in my heart,
although I don't necessarily agree with them. Neo-Liberals,
neo-Fascists or extreme Communists all have a place in my
heart, above all because they are human beings. We must have
the courage to sit down together, to have dialogue as
civilised human beings, as democrats, to seek out the truth
and put to rights those things that are still wrong.

Q:   What do you feel about the fact that the UN still does
not recognise integration?
A:   We should try to get this recognition. That's what I
meant when I wrote to the UN Secretary-General asking for a
referendum to be held. People regarded this as a mistake. What
would happen is that, if a referendum is held and the majority
want integration, the referendum will be accepted by the UN
and everyone will be happy. In the first place, because the
majority supports integration and secondly, because the UN
supports it. Then we would all be happy.

Q:   If you were in the government's place, would it be
correct to hold a referendum?
A:   The government's position is different. The government's
position is that integration is a fact, both de jure and de
facto. This is what the government thinks. But we should not
forget that we also have to deal with the world outside, that
we must place ourselves in this international context. But,
that's enough of this. This is politics....

Q:   Would it be more beneficial if a referendum were held?
A:   The important thing is to give us the freedom to choose.
I think the people can see for themselves and judge the
benefits of the past fifteen years. After seeing all that, the
people may choose integration. But what I want to emphasise is
if a process of choice happens, with everyone aware of what
has happened, those who made the choice will be responsible
for the result. Since we were the ones who made the choice but
then have to suffer the consequences, we would be able to take
responsibility. But if no-one knows what happened, as at
present... (Mgr Belo did not continue.) Oh yes, there is still
a great deal to be done.

Q:   What was it that prompted you to send that letter asking
for a referendum?
A:   At the time, I was extremely disappointed with the
worsening state of affairs here. The letter was an attempt on
my part to change things for the better. Indeed, there are
times when we have to act firmly because the normal way of
doing things simply doesn't work. Now, thank goodness, there
have been corrections and improvements.

Q:   Which is more effective, to make efforts through foreign
channels or to struggle here inside?
A:   After my private letter was made public (in the world's
press, Ed.) and they (the government) made corrections in the
general situation here, I felt that I should adopt a different
position. I now think it's better to struggle here inside in
order to get a status for East Timor that gives our people
greater opportunities to be responsible for the region.

Q:   What was it that prompted that change in the kind of
struggle?
A:   I began to think that I, as an individual and as an
Indonesian citizen, should make my small contribution to the
state and to all the Indonesian people, not just to East
Timor. If possible,  I would like my ideas and attitudes - if
they are of any use - to be used by the entire nation.

Q:   Do you think that the security forces are dealing
correctly with groups that don't yet support integration?
A:   I don't want to teach others about Pancasila but I think
that we should get back to Pancasila and especially the
principles of justice and humanity. The interests of the human
being stand above the interests of the state and above the
interests of security. Those groups should be properly
treated. They should be coaxed, encouraged, and so on, before
military action is taken.

Q:   Hasn't ABRI begun to conduct a territorial operation to
mingle closely with the people?
A:   I see this in two ways. On the one hand, okay, they
produce results for the people and I appreciate that. On the
other hand, I am deeply afraid because everything is done and
built by the military. This could result in the people being
even less willing to get involved. "Why should we bother, why
do we have to do things ourselves. Let them get on with
it...."
     Excessive involvement of the military can mean not giving
the community or civilians the chance to work for development.
What should be happening is that the general public,
civilians, should be encouraged, so that a time will come when
they will do it themselves. The military should withdraw so
that the community takes responsibility for progress and for
their lives.

Q:   How do you think the territorial operation (opster)
should be conducted?
A:   I think opster should only aim at helping the community.
It should not be for the purpose of staying at the side of the
community, so as to watch everyone's movements. They should
not be there as intel. Let me be quite clear. I hear many
complaints. Five kilometres of road is built and there's a
ceremony officiated by a minister. Another thing. There are
village heads, district chiefs, sub-district chiefs, a local
assembly. But often, after they have been chosen, they adopt
a bad attitude, act like feudals. There should be no place for
a feudal attitude in an era of development. It's not right. It
won't help.

Q:   What are you yourself doing to draw those in the upper
echelons closer to the idea of giving the people a role?
A:   I do whatever is possible within the office I hold. When
I travel to the regions, I speak to people and to their
leaders. I also speak to the government and to ABRI. These are
my methods. It's rather different. I don't hold public
meetings.

Q:   Do you not try to encourage dialogue....?
A:   Yes, there should be dialogue (Mgr Belo cut in). But
dialogue must be free. That is essential. There have been
dialogues and meetings, but the impression I have is that
people only raise things which they think are acceptable. If
they raise things that are not likely to be acceptable, those
who said such things go home and can't sleep peacefully
because they are afraid of being summoned and interrogated.

Q:   What have you done to create good relations between the
Church and ABRI?
A:   I don't have military force and I don't want to make any
comments. But I want to say that I find it very regrettable
that many people believe that I am obstructing development,
that I am anti-integration, that I am two-faced, that I
encourage the young people to go on demonstrations. I am
really unhappy about this. Maybe they have evidence to support
their opinion, but if so, why don't they bring it out into the
open? (Mgr Belo was quiet for a while, Ed.) This is very
unpleasant. The result is that we live in a state of mutual
distrust. This is what makes me very unhappy. In the first
place, I am not two-faced. Second, if we all want to restore
tranquillity and freedom in East Timor, I think priority
should be given to civilians. If possible, our friends in the
army should stick to purely military duties.

Q:   But ABRI has a dual function.
A:   Yes, and I personally don't understand where the limits
between the functions lie. This should be explained. As things
are here in East Timor, the military are everywhere, in social
affairs, the economy, culture, tourism, social communications.
So what is left for civilians? If this is the case, let's just
have mono-function. Ha... ha... ha! Those who have followed a
military calling should stick to military tasks and leave
everything else to others.

Q:   In other words, you want things to be as normal here as
in other regions.
A:   (Mgr Belo said nothing for a while.) What is clear is
that this region should not be treated as a province in a
state of emergency. We have a different background, a
different history and culture from other parts of Indonesia.
This is what the central government should realise. We
understand Bhinneka Tunggal Ika [Unity in Diversity, the State
Motto]. If East Timor is just equated with other provinces, it
means that Bhinneka Tunggal Ika will not apply in East Timor.
If you want to apply that motto, then East Timor must be
treated in a special way, given a special status - but I don't
mean a state of emergency.

Q:   Do you mean that these differences should be properly
recognised?
A:   Yes, in formal juridical terms and in implementation.
There should be greater regional autonomy.

Q:   Have relations between the Church and the local
government been good?
A:   Yes. I have been here for nine years. I cooperate with
the governor, with district chiefs, with sub-district chiefs.
With central government agencies, for instance, their local
offices, it's less so, but, in general, it's alright.

Q:   Governor Carrascalao has almost come to the end of his
term. There have been strong calls for his successor to be
someone from the region. What do you want?
A:   Ha... ha... ha! My demand is, listen to what the people
want. The East Timorese are often called ignorant and
backward. The views of these simple, ignorant people often
astonish me. They say: we here are the ones who have a direct
interest in who becomes the governor here. That's why we'd
like the governor to be an East Timorese and a Catholic.

Q:   The law says nothing about the governor of East Timor
having to be someone from the region and a Catholic.
A:   Isn't it so that an East Timorese who is a Catholic is
also an Indonesian citizen? There are many candidates. But
don't choose a candidate who favours certain groups, certain
circles, certain groups or conglomerates. I say again that I
think that the governor of East Timor should be someone from
this region who is a Catholic.

Q:   Are these two conditions a matter of principle?
A:   Yes. It's because very few people have learnt to
understand the innermost feelings of the people of East Timor.
As the saying goes, the voice of the community is the voice of
God. What I would say is that this voice of the people is the
voice of God. Ha... ha... ha!

Q:   What is the position of the Catholic Church in the
everyday life of the East Timorese people?
A:   The church lives in the midst of the community in order
to spread news about one thing, that it must be saved. The
church is the congregation and the congregation is the church.
Whatever the congregation feels is felt by the church.
Whatever the church feels is felt by the congregation. The two
are inseparable. Sometimes, people see the church as a
hierarchy. That is something different though hierarchy is a
part of the congregation.
     The role of the church is none other than that preached
by Christ at the very beginning of the life of the church, to
spread the Gospel to all humanity. That's why the church came
to East Timor in the 16th century. Although Portugal left East
Timor, the church remained. Indonesia came in. The church
remained, living alongside the people to achieve God's call to
save the world,  especially the soul and the whole of
humanity. And so the church strives to do everything in its
power to create whole human beings, in the spiritual and
material sense.

Q:   Some people think that the church goes too far,
particularly in matters that lie outside the realm of prayer.
What do you say to this?
A:   The church's message relates to the whole human being.
Our message relates to the soul, the sacraments and
deliverance. We are also able to save people in other
respects. We have ideas and opinions about social and economic
matters, about justice and peace. This is what is sometimes
misunderstood by some people. If I speak out, they say I'm
engaging in politics. When I only busy myself with the
sacraments, they say this is what the priests and bishops
should be doing. But our duty relates to all aspects of life,
in particular the moral, the ethical and the spiritual. We
don't practise these things at a technical level. It is for
the politicians to strive to realise the church's view of
things in practice.

Q:   What is the best way to combine your position as citizen
with your position as a bishop directly responsible to the
Vatican?
A:   There have been many prejudices about this, leading to
mistaken views. All dioceses and all bishops are directly
under the Vatican's control. All bishops are required to make
a full report about their diocese to the Holy Father every
five years. And they go personally to submit their report
orally. There's no difference between the Diocese of Menado
and the Diocese of Dili.

Q:   Is the problem then that the Dili Diocese is not yet
inside the KWI (the Bishops' Conference of Indonesia)?
A:   This brings us onto the international arena. East Timor
is still on the agenda of the UN. The Vatican does not want to
pre-empt a decision by the UN. When the UN no longer makes an
issue of integration, the Dili Diocese will join the KWI. I
sometimes ask those who make an issue of this: do you think
that if we were to join the KWI, all our problems would be
solved?

Q:   It could be that if you were to join the KWI, it would be
easier to solve the problems.
A:   Solved? By who? By Mgr Leo (Mgr Leo Soekoto, KWI
secretary-general) or Mgr Darmaatmadja (KWI chairman) in
Jakarta?  If we wanted to regulate the church and the
dioceses, we would be on the way to becoming a theocracy. This
would no longer be a Pancasila state but a state like Iran.

Q:   What is the best way to build the link between religion
and the state?
A:   In my opinion, there should be a clear separation. The
secular should handle secular affairs. The religious should
handle religious affairs. This is why I do not believe that
religion should be used for worldly objectives. Religion is
above politics. Religion should push things from inside, as a
moral force.

Q:   Should you, as a religious leader, speak up or stay
silent when others accuse you and when you see your
congregation being unjustly treated?
A:   I think that the voice of the congregation should be
heard. As a religious leader, there are times when one should
speak out and times when one should stay silent.

Q:   When is it right to speak out and when is it right to
stay silent?
A:   I speak out when people are in a state of unrest, when
they are being oppressed, when they are being treated unjustly
and in conflict with Pancasila. I speak out because sometimes
the situation demands that I should. I don't speak out for the
sake of opposition but so as to help improve things.

Q:   And what if the things you say damage your own position?
A:   That's all part of my life's calling. I cannot stand by
in silence when something needs to be changed. I must have the
courage to take a stand. Sometimes people accuse me of being
too strong. If this means my taking positions that are
unpopular, so be it. That's the risk. But not everyone is
unhappy with this. Those who like what I do say that, because
people have no voice and cannot speak out, the bishop must do
so. Others don't have the space to speak probably because they
are afraid.