From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Roy's "consenting" slave
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:25:32 GMT
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: s882916@otto's message of 1 Dec 92 06:51:17 GMT


Of course, I've waited way too long to reply to this, but as an
internationally-known feminist and pervert (they'd heard of me from the
newspaper in Canada! *bounce*), I can never resist it when feminism
meets perversion...*smile*.

In article <s882916.723192677@otto> s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD) writes:
>In this situation the woman needed some feminist counselling, not a man
>to make herself feel worthy.  For too long women have achieved their self-
>esteem and prestige through men. We need to end this and feel happy 
>about oursleves because we are intelligent, worthy, interesting,
>giving, caring people, NOT BECAUSE A MAN TELLS US WE ARE WORTHY. 

>I'm quite upset that not one other person in this group felt the way I
>do. If you were ture feminists, as some call yourselves, you would
>realise that every "choce" we make is not madde in isolation but comes
>from past life experiences and societal pressure.

Absolutely.  Nonetheless, as a "true feminist," I believe that people
should be allowed to make their own decisions.  You criticize Roy
telling her what to do, but you proceed to do the same thing yourself.
You're saying that only you, as a "true feminist," can validate her
choices.  What nonsense.  If you think she is ill-informed, by all
means, inform her, but don't presume to criticize her choices because of
what you *think* is going on!  Ask *her* what is going on, treat her as
a rational human being.

>This woman made the only choice she thought she had, she was wrong she
>didn't have to be a slave. She needed a feminist, not another fucking
>man to exploit her.  

I've had feminists try to exploit me before, and I didn't enjoy it.

Bi-relevance: The first one I met, in college, had heard of me (I was
around for rather a long time...*smile*), and expected me to be some
sort of "woman's role model" simply because I was a very good
programmer.  She got angry with me for spending my spare time fooling
around with a mutual male friend of ours.  Later, it became clear that
she was jealous of both of us, because she was attracted to both of us,
and I think that was the last straw in her disappointment in me.  Too
bad, because I would probably have been interested if she'd tried asking
me out instead of insulting me...and then I might have found that I was
bi (and feminist!) *years* earlier...*smile*.

Anyway...It is ridiculous to tell other women that they have to live up
to *your* idea of what they should be.  I have no respect for so-called
"feminists" who will only respect my choices if they are the ones *they*
would have made.  It's *my* life, and I think the primary goal of "true
feminism" is to allow women to make their *own* choices, not to simply
tell them to make a different set of choices than the one society
prescribes.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi