From: news@fedfil.UUCP (news)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Stimme von der Sperrholtz-HautKopf Halle
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:40:42 GMT
Organization: HTE





From: Till Poser, Hamburge Sperrholz-HautKopf Halle


>I haven't found this article on my newsserver, so I'll have to comment this
>second hand. Mr. Holden has just about gotten so far up my nose that he has
>become a real pain instead of a minor nuicance. Accordingly I'll endeavour
>to disloge this spiky booger, and ....

Just sort of shooting the moon across the blue waters...

>In article <223@fedfil.UUCP> news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
>>I even noted Germans on the net laughing at the state of American education
>>because polls seem to indicate that 49% of the American people, despite all
>>of the forced indoctrination, do not at this point believe in evolution and,
>>in fact, believe that God or somebody created the Earth within the last
>>10,000 years or so.

The intent here should have been rather obvious;  I did not mean the ordinary
intelligent sort of Germans...  the vast majority.  I've nothing against
them at all, in fact I admire them.  Clowns, on the other hand...

>Since it was I that made the remark that seems to have spawned this rambling,
>let me repeat that I found it deeply disturbing, not funny at all, that 47%
>of the US population seem to be, let me say, "scientifically challenged".

I should agree that being forcibly indoctrinated in a stupid and ugly,
atheistic doctrine such as evolutionism amounts to being "challenged".
That 47% of our people appear to have survived that challenge is
remarkable.

I should mention at once that I perceive a gigantic difference between
the terms "evolution", and "evolutionism" or the so-called "theory of
evolution".  That a certain amount, probably quite a lot of evolution
has taken place is fairly obvious.  Immanuel Velikovsky provided a
believeable framework for understand evolution as well as the large
scale extinctions which have accompanied changeovers in earth ages in
his "EARTH IN UPHEAVAL".  Basically this amounts to a theory of
catastrophic evolution, or evolution caused by catastrophic events.

"Evolutionism", or the theory of evolution, amounts to the notion that
man and all higher creatures have evolved from single-celled organisms
which themselves somehow miraculously took form from inert ingredients,
the miracle involved being the greater since the theory disavows a
belief in God or any supernatural agency to CAUSE the miracle.  That
each of the countless steps betwen the single-celled animals and us
involves large-scale violations of the second law of thermodynamics is
said not to detract from the theory.

Velikovsky never claimed to believe that to my knowledge, nor to my
knowledge do other present-day catastrophists.

My view of catastrophic evolution has always been that it offers a way of
understanding the transformation of one form to another, once you already
have complex life forms on the planet to begin with.  Beyond that I don't
go.

>This does not bode well for a nation, whose wealth, intrinsic and otherwise,
>is based on the education of its people.

In numerous ways, the educational systems of the United States are and
have been out of control for some time.  This has been heavily
documented by Allan Bloom (CLOSING OF THE AMERICAN MIND), DeSouza
(ILLIBERAL EDUCATION), and a number of others, most recently including a
book which I would recommend as the one book to read this year if you
only read one book this year:  "ABANDONED, THE BETRAYAL OF THE AMERICAN
MIDDLE CLASS SINCE WW-II", written by two law professors at the
University of South Carolina by the names of Quirk and Bridwell.

That the common people continue to educate their children to some extent
despite all of this is remarkable and speaks of a remarkable resilience.

That the various types of brainwashing which go on in such directions as
political correctness or evolutionism do not take in so high a
percentage of cases is heartening.

>Since I have to assume a strong
>linkage between religious fundamentalist tendencies, if not christian
>ideologism, and this refusal to come to terms with the real world,

Rejecting brainwashing is dealing with reality pretty well.

>I am all
>the more disturbed, since religious fundamentalism goes hand in glove with
>political extremism. Definitely not a good thing for the World's remaining
>superpower!

Funny...  somehow I don't see an atheistic nation ever GETTING to be a
superpower.  America arrived at superpower status via a middle-class
war, fought and won by people with middle-class values.

The religious fundamentalism we've had from day one, with few if any really
disasterous side-effects.  As I've read it, around half the people who
came here had been booted out of Europe for religious exoticness, the
other half for being criminals, which in those days usually meant
stealing a loaf of bread to eat.

>>I would hazard a guess;  the 49% are all or most of the serious people in
>>the US.

>Of course that is serious by Your standards.

I said "guess" and that's all I meant.

>Suffer me to opine that I am
>not all that impressed by neither Your rethorical skill, Your scientific
>acumen nor Your intellectual honesty.

Ditto.

>I assume You'd care to enlist the Pat
>Robertson/Pat Buchanan/Jerry Falwell/David Duke/Jimmy Swaggart/
>Jim Bakker-crowd into Your Pantheon of of intellectual luminaries? By Your
>friends we shall know You...

Real bad assumption...

>>         Of the remaining 51%, probably 10% are nerds (such as the t.o
>>clown force), and the remaining 41% are the urban underclass who are
>>either too stoned or too busy doing car-jackings to give a (scatalogical
>>term deleted).

>>And I'll tell you something about Germany.  Everywhere you go in Germany,
>>you see churches and cathedrals, and in general more serious and magnificent
>>ones than you see here.  There must be some reason for that.  I noticed also
>>a sort of a lack of evolution centers,

>Of course You gave them a wide miss. Take the Museum Koenig and the Rheinische
>Landesmuseum in Bonn (since You mention that You were in that area) with both
>very comprehensive palaeontological and biological collections, not to forget
>the huge, rambling Koelner historisches Museum, which is built square next
>to the Koelner Dom (how You could miss the other, if You visited one mystifies
>me no end). If those aren't evolution centers, then what in the Name of Satan
>is?

I suspect they are centers at which evidence of evolution is on display;
I doubt that a high percentage of the people involved actually believe
that man arose from dust via chance.

Again, the difference between evolution and evolutionism.  The one,
I've no problem with.  The other...  I'll admit I used the wrong term in
the phrase quoted, but I think the intention should have been obvious
enough.

>And as it turns out, You don't seem to have the foggiest, when most of the
>curches and, specifically, the cathedrals were built.

Starting from the tenth and eleventh centuries as I've read it.
Basically, the incursions of Moors, Vikings, and Magyars at roughly the
same time had nearly leveled much of Europe, and the vast building
programs which followed were from the ground up.  The really big
cathedrals were completed at later times as the technical capabilities
required were developed.

>>           Which is not to say that the evolutionists there don't have some
>>sort of a plywood skinhead hall for themselves off in the woods somewhere;
>>just that in driving 2500 kms through the autobahns and towns and cities
>>from Koeln and Duesseldorf down and around to the German alps the last
>>time I was there, I didn't see it.

>This does it! You sniveling dishonest hypocrit, since You, with Your
>jaundiced worldview and Your agenda worn as fact-inverting filter, Your
>invincible ignorance and prejudices along all available dimensions and some
>made up ones in addition, didn't see any, this is enough proof that there is
>no such thing?

You say there ARE plywood skinhead halls in the forests for the purpose
of housing evolutionists??  Good.  Friends, here we have Till Poser, HautKopf,
admitting to the world that Germany has plywood skinhead halls in which
it keeps evolutionists such as himself.

I rest my case.

And again, I must publically state my admiration for the Germans in this
regard.  One of the biggest problems in America is the manner in which
the laws make choosers out of beggers at public expense;  welfare
recipients living in the most expensive regions of the nation and all
the rest.  That Germany has gone as far as housing evolutionists and
other such vermin and parasites in plywood skinhead halls in the forests,
indicates that the originators of such a policy are to be highly commended
and congratulated.






-- 
Ted Holden
HTE