From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Calvinism (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:25:00 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

Steve Gross again promotes Calvinism:

> ---- This sounds dangerously close to New Age thinking Tom.  There is no
> "path" to salvation, as some say there is a "path" to enlightenment.  God
> either gives a person the salvation, or he doesn't.  There is nothing you
> or I can do to attain it.  

Steve have you ever considered the more mundane ramifications of your
Calvinist philosophy? I mean aside from the fact that your god is specifically
responsible for all evil on earth.  Since there is nothing anyone can do to be
saved and further since your god's decision is in no way based on merit, and
is irresistible, it doesn't matter what we do here on earth.  If we are good
and are not chosen, we will go to the same eternal hell as if we were another
Hitler.  Further still, if we are truly vile in this life and even torture,
rape, skin people alive, and amputate body parts from anyone who we displeases
us, that still would not guarantee our damnation, as salvation is not by
merit; we can still have as much chance of being saved as anyone else.  Nor,
if we are damned anyway, would our torture be any more severe for having been
so repulsive; we will be tossed into the same lake of fire as those "unchosen"
who have followed a saintly life. 

A logical conclusion of your Calvinism should be stated as: 

	"Be as vile as you like, it will have no effect on salvation; you 
	can get to heaven anyway.  On the other hand, if you are not destined 
	for salvation, at least you will have gotten some satisfaction for 
	actually deserving hell, and maybe even punishing a few of the 
	'chosen' who will celebrate your eternal punishment." 

And this "celebration" of the damned seems endemic as to Calvinism, as even
Steve states that salvation is not for all, as that situation where everyone
is saved, would just not be "fun."

Luckily for such my fellow man, I neither have the disposition necessary for
such a life of hate, or give any credence to Calvinism so that I might
convince others of its verity (it contradicts as much of the Bible as it
supports). 
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    I'm sure that God could do something miraculous so that everyone would
    become saved, but where is the fun in that?
				Steve Gross

    The sight of hell's torments will exalt the happiness of the saints 
    forever.
				Jonathan Edwards
				Calvinist apologist

   "The goodness as well as the happiness of the blessed will be confirmed and
    advanced by reflections naturally arising from this view of the misery 
    which some shall undergo, which seems to be a good reason for the
    creation of those being who shall be finally miserable, and for the 
    continuation of them in their miserable existence."
				The Calvinist William King
				"De Origine Mali" 

   "God shall not pity them, but laugh at their calamity, The righteous
    company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, 
    and shall sing while the smoke rises up forever."
				Sermon from
				Scot Calvinist Preacher 
				Thomas Boston. 

    ... when does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so 
    many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death 
    unless because it so pleased God?
				Calvin
				Institutes

    PS. It is only right to point out that there are Calvinists who manage
    to dispense with some of the more distasteful attribute of Calvinism
    without gutting the logic of Calvin, but do so by dispensing with hell.
    Charles Hedrick believes  that in order to satisfy the biblical statement 
    that his God wishes all should "come to be saved", that his god chooses 
    everybody.  Publius on the other hand undercuts the horrors of Calvinism 
    by dismissing Calvin's expectation of eternal torture; Publius expects 
    oblivion rather than torture to be the fate of the unchosen.  
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