HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: positron@engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas)
Subject: Re: Text Adventure Games for Amiga
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 21:59:06 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Oct8.111516.21491@rtf.bt.co.uk> fletcher@rtf.bt.co.uk (Catherine Fletcher) writes:
>
>Does anybody know if there are any ports of PC text adventure games to the
>Amiga?  I am thinking of the shareware games in particular.
>
>Also have they made an Amiga version of LTOI for the Amiga?  At the moment
>I don't know of any text adventure games for the Amiga and I really... (cough
>cough) need... (tremble, cough) ...one.
>

You bet they make LTOI for the Amiga. Go out right now. Buy it. It's worth
every dime.

-- 
__/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
\    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
/_  _\  positron@engin.umich.edu | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
  \/    Marrou/Lord in '92!      | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.
From: eisen@fermat.cs.jhu.edu (Hal Joshua Eisen)
Subject: Re: firsts in RPGs
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 05:05:42 GMT

engjs@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (James Smith) writes:
>Mad Chris writes:
>
>> Was Ars Magica the first unlimited magic rules?
>
>Tunnels and Trolls certainly predates Ars Magica by many years.  Its
>magic system allowed you to make up a spell on the spur of the moment
>to do what needed doing.  Is this what you mean by 'unlimited magic'?

i've been playing T&T for many years, and it was my FRPG system of choice
until steve jackson released GURPS.  according to my oh-so-fuzzy recollection,
T&T did not have an "open" magic system.  it had 20 spell levels, and each
level had a spell list.  all mages got all level 1 spells for free, but higher
level spells had to be learned (either from a guild for a fee, or a more
experienced wizard-mentor).  my favorite spell on 1st level was the generic
hurt-the-monster spell (like magic missile in ad&d) which was "Take That, You
Fiend!"  in fact, T&T had a whole bunch of creatively-named spells in this list.
has Flying Buffalo expended the rules to incorporate a system of 'unlimited
magic'?

						hal

<=============================================================================>
Hal J Eisen, TMWTMOASS              | "Violence is the last refuge of
eisen@cs.jhu.edu         (personal) |     the incompetent"  --Salvor Hardin
eisen@jhuigf               (BITNET) | Safer Sacs: Overprotect with
mimsy.umd.edu!empress1!eisen (work) |     Nimzovitch's Prophylaxis
bus error (passengers dumped)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.pbm
From: wool8657@mach1.wlu.ca (john woolsey 9209 U)
Subject: PBM Arena type game.
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:48:16 GMT

I am currently working on an arena type combat game. It is designed for
basic arena combat between various players. I am really looking for
suggestions on warrior control. Currently I have various weapons available,
and warrior actions per round. This is fairly loose control, but it should
get the basic message across to the warrior. If anyone has any ideas on what
they think I should add please respond to this message, and give me some
ideas.

Currently each round in controlled by advance, stand, or retreat. You can do
so hasty, cautious or standardly. Hasty means go for it. cautious or
standardly have attacks, and a bit of dodging as you advance towards the
opposing player. Thank you for your help and suggestions - bfn - JAW
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: kellehe@iugate.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Kelleher)
Subject: 3d Graphics - a challange
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:27:46 GMT

Would anybody be interested in perhaps writing a brief overview ( if
possible )
of 3-d graphics in games. Get as techinical as you want, but try to keep
the discussion general.  Hard, I know. Anyone up to it?
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: vaccari@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (matteo vaccari)
Subject: Re: OOP in game design
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 10:05:09 GMT

appelo@dutiag.tudelft.nl (C.J. Appelo) writes:

[...]

>I am trying to find out if object-oriented programming could be of any help
>in designing computer games. There are some questions I would like to spread
>around here:

>1. Does anybody know if a study on this matter has already been done? Maybe
>there are some people who already evaluated the possibilities of doing things
>the object-oriented way in game-making activities. Names of persons or titles
>of books/articles would be very welcome. (Although I am afraid that nobody
>can help me with this one.)

[...]


There exists a package, called TADS, that enables to build text-based
adventure games.  It is basically an interpreter for an
object-oriented programming language.  I sent email to the authors,
but got no answer so far.

I think going OO is exactly what you need to model the world :-) .
If you want to have "objects" and characters using them, then OO
is the natural choice.

Matteo

-- 
Matteo Vaccari                  tel.    +39-2-55006347
Dipartimento di Informatica     fax.    +39-2-55006348
Universita` di Milano           e-mail: vaccari@ghost.unimi.it
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:16:04 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <Bvr875.B2H@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com>, by dscharfe@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (David Scharfe):
> At one time, I had heard rumors that AH was going to revamp the 
> entire PanzerBlitz (et al) game system.  Does anyone know if this
> has been done, or is in the works?

I have seen the supposed list of AH/VG releases for the next year or
so, and there was nothing on it on that topic (of course, that doesn't
mean anything).  Shameless plug: If you feel the Panzerblitz system is
a bit dated, take a look at West End's Tank Leader games.  I bought
the Western Front game (advisable as first, because some bugs in the
system were fixed), then bought Panzerblitz as comparison some months
later.  Two days after my first look at Panzerblitz, I decided to buy
Eastern Front Tank Leader and Panzerblitz has been collecting dust on
my shelf since then.  To be sure, tastes differ, and not everyone
likes these games.  Somehow, the ease of use of the card activation
system seems to reduce its simulation value in people's heads.  
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dscharfe@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (David Scharfe)
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Organization: Datapoint Corporation, San Antonio, TX
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:59:27 GMT

In article <JPG.92Oct7084615@holly.bnr.co.uk> jpg@bnr.co.uk (Jonathan P. Gibbons) writes:
>Have you ever played star fleet battles?  The system they have is really only
>suitable for games where each side has only a few pieces and works via:
>
> [description of SFB's impulse movement system deleted]

I really like this system; it is the one great credit of the SFB 
game system.  Well, I had never seen a movement system like it 
before the SFB pocket edition (I go back to the earliest days
of SFB, but I've scarcely played it since ADB decided to add
10,000 rules to the game).

A couple of friends of mine and myself experimented with such a
movement system using hybrid rules combining what we considered 
the best elements of Avalon Hill's PanzerBlitz, Panzer Leader, and 
Arab-Israeli Wars games.  It actually worked quite well, since there
are typically only a few different speeds to be concerned with.  (I
even experimented with "command control delays", where units could
not begin movement without a certain control delay based on unit
quality.  This got too tedious and we blew it off).

It has been stated that such a system only works well for small 
numbers of units, and I must certainly agree in reference to human
vs human games.  On the other hand, using a computer...

Dave

P.S. 
 
At one time, I had heard rumors that AH was going to revamp the 
entire PanzerBlitz (et al) game system.  Does anyone know if this
has been done, or is in the works?
From: dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:09:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

It just occured to me that you may be missing a BUNCH of firsts for
Arduin.

Such as First: Hit Location System, Critical Hit System, D&D Variant System,
                 RPG Other than D&D, and I suspect a bunch of others.

Dave


Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Subject: Re: OOP in game design
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:33:39 GMT


In article <appelo.718402868@dutiag> appelo@dutiag.tudelft.nl (C.J. Appelo) writes:
>
>I am trying to find out if object-oriented programming could be of any help
>in designing computer games.

You bet!

I'm working on a game right now which makes extensive use of OOP. For
one thing, it is a multiplayer multimachine game, capable of using
several types of communication links (modems, Novell, TCP/IP, NETBIOS).
OOP allows all the complexities of communications over different
technologies at different times to be nicely encapsulated and given one
consistent interface. And this is but one example.

Each character in the game can be an object. You can have whole
hierarchies of character objects, such as "human," "dwarf," "halfling,"
"elf," "wizard," etc. each with different characteristics and yet
inheriting characteristics common to all characters in the game.

OOP is a natural for complex games. I probably wouldn't have attempted
it at all without OOP.

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: blum@news.ils.nwu.edu (Daniel Blum)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:00:31 GMT

>Ysgarth     First game to handle spells as skills, rather than under a
>                       separate system.

No disrespect to Ysgarth, but I would say that The Fantasy Trip did
this as well (spells were learned in the same way as any other skill,
and anyone could learn them, although costs differed).  I assume that
Wizard was published before Ysgarth, but I could be wrong on that score.

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"By the power vested in me by my own over-inflated ego, I now 
 declare this bridge officially open."
_____________________________________________________________________
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:27:24 GMT
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia

In article <1992Oct8.050123.20187@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
|> I'd suggest that War Hammer Fantasy Role Play had the first no skill level
|> skill system, or a proficiency system.  There method of career advancement
|> is pretty unique too.
|> 
|> |-|()()|<

never played it.  what is the skill system etc... for WHFRPG?
From: bell@beethoven.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:54:22 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Oct8.050123.20187@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>I'd suggest that War Hammer Fantasy Role Play had the first no skill level
>skill system

"The Fantasy Trip" had a "you have it or you don't" skill system back in
1979 or thereabouts.

  -Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu
From: batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: firsts in RPGs
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:02:35 GMT

Travis S. Casey (picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu) wrote:

> I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
> would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
> the following stuff:
> D & D :        First RPG system
> Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes
> MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things
> Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
> Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)
> CORPS:         Attempts to reduce die rolling, squared attributes.
> Amber:         Diceless play, character auction.
> Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"
> James Bond:    First use of action table.

Shadowrun wasn't the first "count-each-die separately", I think.
There was a minor game which sank without a trace - Warrior? - that
used a system similar.

CORPS is definately not the first game to attempt to reduce die rolling.

Amber is not the first diceless (although I can't remember what was. It
was useless and sank without a trace back in the 70's, I think).

Get Lawrence Schick's 'Heroic Worlds': it has a (near) complete list
of RPG's and a timeline at the back. Some things you forgot:

Traveller:		First Sci-fi game (but only just!)
Call of Cthulhu:	First Horror game
GURPS			First (?) universal game system

...but maybe you weren't considering genre.

You should have:

Albedo			First use of equipment cards (I think! Someone
 			can probably prove me wrong!) and first
			quantatative relationship rules.

Was Ars Magica the first unlimited magic rules?

This is becoming pure ramble. I'll shut up now.

Mad Chris.
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Y/TCT Minirules
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:52:34 GMT
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia

In article <16323@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
|> dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle) writes:
|> addition and one subtraction, then a comparison against a chart?  I've seen
|> more elegant systems (Legacy is one).

How about a quick description of Legacy mechanics, please?
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.pbm
From: bethmo@microsoft.com (Beth Moursund)
Subject: Re: PBM Arena type game.
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:23:58 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

The "BloodPit" gladatorial combat game uses something called "triggers"
to control warrior strategies.  Instead of just setting activity
level etc. for each round, you can set them to change when something
specific happens -- first blood, weapon dropped, 50% damage, and
so forth.  (You can also set them by round.)  This lets you set up
a warrior to do things like come in with three daggers, throw them
at opponent, and then switch to martial arts as soon as he's out
of daggers.

I think a system like that has MUCH more potential, and would
encourage you to consider something along those lines.

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:01:23 GMT

I'd suggest that War Hammer Fantasy Role Play had the first no skill level
skill system, or a proficiency system.  There method of career advancement
is pretty unique too.

|-|()()|<
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Sequential movement in wargames
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 14:44:48 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Re: SFB segmented move system

When we first started using this I really liked it.  But after a while I
began to realize that it is error prone and EXTREMELY SLOW.  Battles with
just a handful (4-5) of ships take HOURS in SFB and you only play 6 or 7
turns (supposedly representing 1/30 second each).

Part of the problem for SFB is of course that in addition to segemented
movement it also uses plotted movement.  It all has a nice feel to it (you
can actually outmaneuver someone!) it just all takes too long.

Also, there are probably too many segments.  The role playing game
Champions also used segmented movement and it went faster (though still too
slow) with only 12 segments instead of the 32 in SFB.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER)
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:05:15 GMT

np2@doc.ic.ac.uk (Nathaniel Pryce) writes:

>  Was Star Wars the first game where the GM gives a task a difficulty number
>and the player rolls their skill dice against it? 

I think 2300 AD, or Traveller 2300 as it was released, was the first to use
this.  They had a set number of task levels, modified by skills, and they 
also used a bell curve multiplier for the duration (3d6 * 1/10 of the normal
time taken).  GDW went on to implement it in Mega Travellar too.

|-|()()|<
From: boender@dutiws.tudelft.nl (Hildo Biersma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: 3d-graphics problem
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:43:34 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology

Hi all,
A friend of mine is writing a 3d-game. (Elite-ish, I guess).
In this game, the orientation of objects is kept in a 9*9 matrix. This
matrix is in 4+12 bit fixed point representation. Now, this matrix is altered
whenever the object rotates. And, because the matrix is in fixed-point, it
suffers from a loss in precision. He tried to fix this by getting the 
determinant of the matrix. Whenever it gets too large or too small, he divides
all elements of the matrix by the determinant. However, this doesn't work:
the elements of the matrix get out of proportion, resulting in a distorted view
and (eventually) in a crash.
Now, how is this to be solved? He could keep the three angles of the object,
calculate the matrix from that, and change the angles whenever the object is
rotated. This makes it hard to rotate the object about any axis other than
x, y, z. Also, it is slow. So, are there any ways to repair the matrix quickly
and efficiently?

Hope you can solve this one...
Bye, Hildo Biersma
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: nv89-nun@nada.kth.se (Nicklas Ungman)
Subject: Re: OOP in game design
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:03:09 GMT

In article <appelo.718402868@dutiag>, appelo@dutiag.tudelft.nl (C.J. Appelo) writes:
|> 
|> Hi there,
|> 
|> I'm a student at the University of Technology in Delft (Holland) and I would
|> like to know if there are some people around somewhere who could help me a
|> little with my current study project.
|> 
|> I am trying to find out if object-oriented programming could be of any help
|> in designing computer games. There are some questions I would like to spread
|> around here:
|> 
|> 1. Does anybody know if a study on this matter has already been done? Maybe
|> there are some people who already evaluated the possibilities of doing things
|> the object-oriented way in game-making activities. Names of persons or titles
|> of books/articles would be very welcome. (Although I am afraid that nobody
|> can help me with this one.)

IMHO games are far better suited for OOP than other types of programs,
because the models used in most games are more similar to the real world.
The setting in computer games are often a small universe with objects and
rules how these objects interact. (Of course there are more or less abstract
games that are maybe less suited for OOP). It's almost always trivial to find the
objects when designing a game, eg Asteroids,Pacman, Chess, Super Mario, ...
It's not as easy to find them in calculators, word processors, bitmapped
paint programs, spreadsheets, ...

|> 3. Are there some readers who know a lot of "The Art of Game Design" (quoting
|> Chris Crawford). I could use some information on the many topics concerning
|> the making of games, like A.I., graphics, sound, whatever. Especially the more
|> technical info could be interesting. For example, are there important issues
|> that make OO unusable in some cases? (And a lot more of such questions...)

I've been thinking about using Infinite Automata to model states in (action)
games, (e.g. intro-state, play-state, enter-high-state, show-hig-state).
Has someone else tried to implement this?

|> Bye, Jurgen.
|> 
|> E-mail: APPELO@DUTIBA.TWI.TUDELFT.NL
|> 

-- 
******************************************************************************
  Nik. Ungman       InterNet: nv89-nun@nada.kth.se         AppleLink: SW0358
   Issued by the alien relations board:  Not all aliens are like the kleggs
        Be nice to your neighbourhood alien and he'll be nice to you
From: dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David Nalle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: History of FRP systems
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:05:47 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

>   I'm trying to put together something on the history of RPG systems, and
>   would appreciate any help that anyone could give me.  Right now, I have
>   the following stuff:

Well, since everyone seems to be adding to your list, let me chime in.

>   D & D :        First RPG system
>   Champions:     first point-creation system, logarithmic attributes
>   MS & PE:       First use of any attribute + any skill for doing things

What was the publication date on MSPE?  Ysgarth had a system of 
this sort beginning in 1981.

>   Shadowrun:     First "count-each-die separately" system
>   Runequest:     First %-ile system (not full percentile, but...)
>   CORPS:         Attempts to reduce die rolling, squared attributes.

Ysgarth offered a system for a squared curve in 1985, well before
CORPS.

>   Amber:         Diceless play, character auction.
>   Star Wars:     First use of character "templates"
>   James Bond:    First use of action table.

How about Adding:

Ysgarth     First system to combine aimed blows and hit location in
                      a single roll in combat.
Ysgarth     First game to differentiate between background skills
                      and 'learned' skills.
Ysgarth     First game to handle spells as skills, rather than under a
                       separate system.

>   As you can probably see, I'm interested mainly in what mechanics were
>   introduced by what system, rather than a chronology.

I can probably think of more...

Dave

Xref: sparky rec.games.design:1721 rec.games.programmer:4223