HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Keywords: Bush's proposal
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:44:27 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

richter@mcc.com (Charlie Richter) writes:

>My reason is that consumer spending will provide a
>more *immediate* stimulation of the economy than investment.  

This is the point on which we disagree.

It is just not the case that consumer spending jolts the economy more
than investment, either in the short or long term.  Why is it better to
spend the money on Hershey bars than factory equipment?  Both require
sales people, factories to create them, transportation systems,
everything.  One lasts and continues to create wealth and one does
not.

I, and most economists, maintain that both provide the same short term
economic boost.  One also helps in the long term while one does not.

The following poem is from the book, "The Failure of the New
Economics." It is a very cogent indictment of (primitive,
unreconstructed) Keynesianism.



		I Want to be a Consumer


	"And what do you mean to be?"
	    The kind old Bishop said
	As he took the boy on his ample knee
	    And patted his curly head.
	"We should all of us choose a calling
		To help Society's plan;
	Then what do you mean to be, my boy,
		When you grow to be a man?"

	"I want to be a Consumer,"
		The bright-haired lad replied
	As he gazed up into the Bishop's face
		In innocence open-eyed.
	"I've never had aims of a selfish sort,
		For that, as I know, is wrong.
	I want to be a Consumer, Sir,
		And help the world along.

	"I want to be a Consumer
		And work both night and day,
	For that is the thing that's needed most,
		I've heard Economists say.
	I won't just be a Producer,
		Like Bobby and James and John;
	I want to be a Consumer, Sir,
		And help the nation on."

	"But what do you want to BE?"
		The Bishop said again,
	"For we all of us have to work," said he,
		"As must, I think, be plain.
	Are you thinking of studying medicine
		Or taking a Bar exam?"
	"Why, no!" the bright-haired lad replied
		As he helped himself to jam.

	"I want to be a Consumer
		And live in a useful way;
	For that is the thing that's needed most,
		I've heard Economists say.
	There are too many people working
		And too many things are made.
	I want to be a Consumer, Sir,
		And help to further Trade.

	"I want to be a Consumer
		And do my duty well;
	For that is the thing that's needed most,
		I've heard Economists tell.
	I've made up my mind," the lad was heard
		As he lit a cigar, to say;
	"I want to be a Consumer, Sir,
		And I want to begin today."

	- Punch, April 25, 1934.

-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 - Begin means testing of Social Security, Medicare and Farm Subsidies now. -
Newsgroups: austin.politics
From: kovsky@cs.utexas.edu (David Wayne Kovsky)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 18:06:13 -0500
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: ghidrah.cs.utexas.edu
Keywords: Bush's proposal

Okay, nobody is going to help the economy merely by being a consumer
and nothing more.  This would be very extreme.  At the other extreme,
if we simply invest everything in a chocolate factory, nobody will
be able to buy any chocolate bars.  The same applies for whatever
kind of factory you want to talk about.  We have to strike a balance.  

My problem with Reaganomics is that I don't believe that the rich 
are investing instead of buying really expensive candy bars (or boats 
or European vacations or whatever).  Of course they are investing, 
but they are definitely enjoying their tax breaks as well.  It is
inefficient to lose these tax revenues when maybe 50% are actually
being invested in ways that help the economy.  Of course their 
investment is often misguided as well.  My brother-in-law is an
electrician in Dallas, and he is leaning toward Bush.  He is happy
about all the empty office space in Dallas because he got to work
to build it.  Personally, I would have preferred for him to have
built schools and prisons.  These are things we need to invest
in, but the rich don't stand to make any money by building schools.
It is costing us money now, and it will cost us much more in the 
future that we aren't spending enough money on these things.  The 
money will have to come from taxes.  That's why I think it's absurd
to be giving tax breaks to anyone, especially to those who will be
just fine without a tax break.  The thought that a tax break for
the rich is an investment in our future just does not make any
sense at all to me.  

I believe that Bush's policies are based on class preservation 
rather than Clinton's being based on class envy.  

There has been a lot of argument on this newsgroup on this topic and
we don't seem to be making much progress either way, so I would like
to ask a new question:
If you like Bush's economic policies, what do you think of his 
performance on the economy?  It is probably clear by now that I 
will not be voting for Bush, but I am interested in knowing why
some of you are so supportive of him.  

David Kovsky
From: bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Keywords: Bush's proposal
Date: 3 Oct 92 19:04:29 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: Novell, Inc. --Austin

In article <1992Oct2.142927.12950@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch posting for John Strong):

>foolishness (maintaining concern for the dignity of the person). Perhaps
>my remarks showed contempt for my opponent and not just his ideas. Even
>though you didn't say so explicitly, I sense that perhaps that accounts
>for your annoyance. If so, then I make note of your comments (really!)

Yes, that's right.

>On the *other* hand, if you *agree* with Mr. Richter's idea that by
>buying stock in Texaco one doesn't affect the price of the stock, or
>that Texaco (and the economy) doesn't benefit, then I have no sympathy

No, I found your explanation informative.

>Good point. I didn't explain too much, did I? This fool's hat is off
>to you.

Actually, if you would explain it, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Later,
Brendan
-- 
Brendan B. Boerner		Phone: 512/346-8380
Internet: bboerner@novell.com	MHS: bboerner@novell
Please use ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ if replying by mail exterior to Novell.
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:27:48 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

richter@mcc.com (Charlie Richter) writes:
>about $300 billion in the red each of the past two years.  I personally do
>not believe we can balance the budget without increasing taxes.  I wish it

I disagree.

56% of the budget goes to 'entitlements'.
25% is defense.
14% is interest on the defecit.

The other 5% is for the arts, PBS, research on frogs etc. etc. etc...

We can't do anything about the interest on the deficit.

Defense is already being cut.

There is one overblown meaty target left.  Entitlements.

I would start by saying that old people with 100k incomes don't really
need to be drawing Social Security, which they now do, and they don't
need to be getting free health insurance, which they now do, (Medicare).

My FICA taxes go to pay for that and with demographic trends such as they
are (more old and fewer young every year,) you can prove that this
56% will become 60% then 70% etc. until it is completely unsustainable
30 years from now.

These same men and women who are drawing these checks were the same ones
who voted into office imbeciles who spent their retirement money instead
of saving it.  Why should I have to pay for their mistake?  The AARP is
screwing their grandkids and it has to stop.

Social Security will be gone when I retire.  There is zero evidence
to the contrary.  Zero.

So why wait?  You know it will be cut eventually.

Cut it now.

-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 -Public school administration has gone from 15% to 30% of expenses since 1960-
From: bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Keywords: Bush's proposal
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:16:37 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: Novell, Inc. --Austin

In article <1992Sep29.144427.13464@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806) writes:
>richter@mcc.com (Charlie Richter) writes:
>
>>My reason is that consumer spending will provide a
>>more *immediate* stimulation of the economy than investment.  
>
>This is the point on which we disagree.
>
>It is just not the case that consumer spending jolts the economy more
>than investment, either in the short or long term.  Why is it better to
>spend the money on Hershey bars than factory equipment?  Both require
>sales people, factories to create them, transportation systems,
>everything.  One lasts and continues to create wealth and one does
>not.
>
>I, and most economists, maintain that both provide the same short term
>economic boost.  One also helps in the long term while one does not.

Sure and why would anyone be investing in industry if they thought that
no one would be around consuming what they'll be turning out?  The
industry types are going to sit around not expanding because they don't
see a need to expand - they're capable of meeting current demand w/
current capacity.  To expand would mean that they think that demand
will rise.  If you think that current demand exceeds current capacity
and that we ought to be doing something to encourage industry to expand
to meet that capacity, then fine, I've misunderstood the argument.

_All_ industry is affected by consumption.  Company A may do nothing
but sell to company B which does nothing but sell to company C ... and
finally company Z sells something to a consumer, but if that consumer
isn't there to buy anything, then it is all for nought.

Brendan
-- 
Brendan B. Boerner		Phone: 512/346-8380
Internet: bboerner@novell.com	MHS: bboerner@novell
Please use ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ if replying by mail.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: austin.politics
Subject: Re: Investment or Consumption?  Which helps the economy more?
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:39:31 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: austin
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Sep25.163547.3728@mcc.com> richter@mcc.com (Charlie Richter) writes:
>My point (and maybe you can relay this to your friend John, who missed
>the beginning of this discussion) was that, as I understood Bush's
>speech in Detroit (and I watched every minute of it, including the
>Q&A session), one of Bush's goals is an immediate stimulation of the
>economy.  And so I'm just speculating that, if that is the *primary*
>goal, then reducing the lower rate to, say, 12% and leaving the other
>two rates at 28% and 31% is a better approach than lowering all three
>rates by 1% each.  My reason is that consumer spending will provide a
>more *immediate* stimulation of the economy than investment.  I may be
>wrong;  perhaps Bush's proposal will provide more immediate economic
>activity than mine would, and maybe immediate stimulation is a bad
>goal in and of itself.  But no one has made those points yet.

"Immediate stimulation" will result in high inflation (caused by an
increase in dollars chasing a slowly rising increase in goods and
services) and little investment.

The rationale behind this claim is that industry, which is being
"punished" by way of the short-term investor (that is, short term
investments will be discouraged, so companies which need a short term
boost won't be able to get capital) will not be able to respond fast
enough to the increased consumer demand.  As the consumer has more and
more money to spend, prices will rise to meet that demand.

>I have made it very clear, from the beginning, that I'm talking about
>an immediate stimulation.  I have no problem with your view that
>investment produces long-term growth;  I subscribe to that myself.
>But everything I was talking about in my two articles was within the
>context of producing immediate stimulation.  Most of John's points are
>about investment for long-term growth.

There are no quick and easy fixes.  This is what separates the
conservative investor/politician/etc. from the liberal investor/politician
etc.  There are structural problems with our economy and they are going
to take time to fix.  None of Clinton's (or yours, for that matter)
proposals will address the structural problems.  Most of Clinton's
proposals are based on class-envy - that is, the rich have far too much
money - and not based on sound economics.  I hate to point this out, but
poor people don't own factories, they don't invest in the economy, and
they don't hire millions workers.  The people Clinton is trying to punish
=do= all of those things.
-- 
John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: austin.talk
From: lenny@icus.ICUS.COM (Lenny Tropiano)
Subject: State Farm Renter's Insurance -- Personal Computer Coverage
Organization: ICUS Software Systems, Austin, Texas
Distribution: austin
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:50:26 GMT

I received my premium today for renewal, and for grims was reading all
the fine print.  My renter's policy has a "rider" for Personal Computer
Coverage (being the hacker-type I am...)

The funny parts that I saw was the exclusion section...

	1. mechnical breakdown, faulty construction, error in hardware or
	   *software* design.
	2. wear and tear, deterioration or any quality in property that 
	   causes it to damage or *destroy itself*
	3. rust, rot, mold or other fungi
	4. rats, mice, termites, moths or other insects
		(aka. computer "bugs") :-)
	5. *war*  This includes:
	   a) undeclared war or civil war
	   b) insurrection, rebellion or revolution
	   c) warlike act by military personal
	   d) destruction or seizure or use for a military purpose
	   e) any consequence of acts shown in a. through d above.
	   f) discharge of a *nuclear* weapon will be deemed a warlike act,
	      even if *accidental*
	6. *nuclear reaction, radiation or radioactive contamination*

etc. etc. etc.

-L.
-- 
| Lenny Tropiano           ICUS Software Systems        lenny@icus.ICUS.COM |
|               ...!{ames,cs.utexas.edu,pacbell}!icus!lenny                 |
+---------------- 14300 Tandem Blvd #222, Austin, TX 78728 -----------------+
From: jesskong@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Blessed One)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: Sale of Answering Machine
Date: 30 Sep 92 14:17:13 GMT
Reply-To: jesskong@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Blessed One)
Distribution: austin
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: jesskong@dumbo.cc.utexas.edu

I am posting this for a friend, please response to him
----------------------------------------------------------

	Answering Machine
	Goldstar
	1 year old
	Price: 15.00
	in perfect condition. 
	
	Please contact SiuKei @ (512)476-7219 (Austin)
	or through email siukei@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: Road bike saddle for sale
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:10:28 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Hi.  I've got a Selle Italia Turbo road bike saddle for sale.  It's black with
white writing.  Colorado Cyclist sells it new for $28.95 plus shipping; I'll
sell mine, which is about a month old, for $20.

Phone me at 471-4496 during business hours or reply by email to
kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu.

Thanks,
Kip Ingram
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: billk%radian@natinst.com (Bill Kastak)
Subject: WATERBED For Sale
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:21:48 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: Radian Corporation, Austin, Texas


King Size Waterbed for sale.  Waveless mattress, heater.
Wood Frame and headboard with bookshelves.  Great condition.

Asking $75.00.

Call Toby at 478-4269 if interested.
Xref: sparky austin.forsale:2112 tx.forsale:331 misc.forsale:27721
From: sandeep@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Sandeep Sinha)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale,tx.forsale,misc.forsale
Subject: CAR / TV for sale
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:06:47 GMT
Reply-To: sandeep@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Sandeep Sinha)
Followup-To: austin.forsale
Distribution: usa
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: sandeep@mickey.cc.utexas.edu

Mitshibushi Tredia (1983) model for sale 
All power, AM/FM cassette stero
Nice car..... for $2000.00 obo

GEC TV 21 inches with remote for $130
call 512-459-5250 or send e-mail


Sandeep Sinha 
a
bye
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: frankw@rice.edu (Frank Whitby)
Subject: IMMACULATE GT Avalanche MTB For Sale
Organization: Rice University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:33:07 GMT




October 10, 1992
Frank Whitby
Houston TX
frankw@rice.edu

Immaculate GT Avalanche For Sale

18 inch, 1990 model purchased new in spring 1991.
Less than 500 easy miles on it.  All Deore Dx
components, Araya RM-17 anodized, Ritchy tires, etc.
all in perfect condition.  An excellent
high performance MTB.   $600.00




--
...............................................................................
: Frank G. Whitby			: 	Dept. of Biochemistry          :
: frankw@rice.edu			:	Rice University		       :
: (713)527-8101 x3346 (operator assist) :	P.O. Box 1892		       :
: (713)527-8750 x3346 (direct dial)     :	Houston, TX  77251	       :
:.......................................:......................................:
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: unniks@mcc.com (C. Unnikrishnan)
Subject: '81 Toyota Starlet
Reply-To: unni@mcc.com
Organization: MCC, Austin, TX
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:30:32 GMT


My friend is selling her '81 Toyota Starlet (97K miles, 5speed).

Recent brake and clutch job.
A/C and Stereo works.
Price $900.

interested? send me email or call/leave msg at 338-3689.

unni/
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------
c. unnikrishnan       unniks@mcc.com     ## internet 
{sun.com, uunet.uu.net}!cs.utexas.edu!mcc.com!unniks
From: Sky.Striker@fquest.FidoNet.Org (Sky Striker)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: STUFF FOR SALE
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:00:55 GMT

Ok Both the Compaq computer and the Dataproducts laser printer are gone...

Stuff I still have.....

Microsoft Office for Windows(has MS Powerpoint, Ms Word(with MS Mail), and
                             MS Excel)

Several copies of MS Windows v3.1

All those software packages are brand-new still in shrink-wrap.
 
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: cpw8034@venus.tamu.edu (ALAN C. WEN (409)693-2924)
Subject: Amiga500, ClrMonitor, 1mbRAM, 2Drives, more!  $450
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:26:00 GMT

The above system is in excellent condition but I'm not the seller.  I'm
posting this for someone else so if you're interested, you may
email me or call

Eric or Tom at (713) 937-4584

alan
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: meier@convex.com (Kris Meier)
Subject: TX-OU tix for sale
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:01:00 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

I have four Tx-OU tickets that I will be unable to use.  They are located at

Section 14, Row 12, Seats 7,8,9,10

Asking $40 apiece.

mail meier@convex.com


Kris

Xref: sparky austin.forsale:2119 ut.general:77
From: rajendra@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Rajendra K Talluri)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale,ut.general
Subject: Full size bed for sale
Date: 3 Oct 92 15:17:51 GMT
Reply-To: rajendra@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Rajendra K Talluri)
Followup-To: austin.forsale
Distribution: austin
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: rajendra@happy.cc.utexas.edu

FULL SIZE BED FOR SALE :
------------------------

We are planning to buy a larger bed and wish to sell our
full sized bed.

	- less than one year old

	- used very little, looks new 

	- frame, box springs and mattress

	- paid $159.00 (have reciept)

	- asking $80 OBO

	if interested, please reply by e-mail.

-----------------------------------------------------

raj@hera.ee.utexas.edu

Raj Talluri
Computer and Vision Research Center
Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Univerty of Texas at Austin
Austin, Texas 78712
From: eric@eric.austin.ibm.com (Mail forward to payne)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: Waterbed to give away
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:07:36 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: IBM, Austin

I have a waterbed which I am trying to give away.  The frame is about 10
years old, but the mattress is brand new.  I am moving and don't want to take
it with me.  If you can haul it away, it is yours.

Please e-mail your responses to eric@voyager.austin.ibm.com
-- 

Thank you
Eric Payne
eric@voyager.austin.ibm.com
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
From: herrin@turtle.mcc.com.mcc (Jim Herrin)
Subject: WANTED ... wood heater
Keywords: Wood heater
Reply-To: herrin@turtle.mcc.com.mcc
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: austin
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:36:20 GMT


I am looking for a wood heater for my shop.  It doesn't have to be pretty,
but it must be safe.  Cast iorn, and will consider different sizes.  

Reasonable prices please.             Jim Herrin
					wk......338-3333
					hm......272-8348 (local call)
					or email to above
From: miles@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Miles Abernathy)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: Manchaca Swapfest October 10
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:24:21 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: University of Texas
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d10
X-XXMessage-ID: <A6F742B1C4029F31@mac39.util.utexas.edu>
X-XXDate: Tue, 6 Oct 92 13:18:41 GMT

There will be lots of ham radio and computer gear at the Manchaca
Volunteer Fire Department Saturday, October 10. Free admission, but it
does cost a few bucks to rent a table or tailgate area. _They say_ the
best deals happen before 5 AM, and I will have to take their word for it.
I do know that some folks get there Friday evening. When I get there,
usually about 7 AM, there is already a crowd (with their flashlights).
The party is over by early afternoon. Location is across from McCoy
Lumber Co.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  _     Miles Abernathy, N5KOB        =
 | |__  miles@emx.cc.utexas.edu       =
_|    | POB 7580, Austin TX 78713     =
\  * /  University of Texas @ Austin  =
  \/    tel. (512) 471-6521           =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
From: rhaig@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Haig)
Newsgroups: austin.forsale
Subject: SCSI drive, controller, video card & mouse
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:44:17 GMT
Reply-To: rhaig@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Haig)
Distribution: austin
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: rhaig@tramp.cc.utexas.edu

SCSI Quantum 80AT  19ms				$175

Future Domain 1680 SCSI Controller		$100

ATI VGA wonder (1MB) with mouse & software	$100

____________________________

Please call Jason at 326-4288 as I am posting this for him
do not reply via email
Newsgroups: austin.forsale