HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Underage drinking
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:30:32 GMT
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Tibor writes:

> Brynjolfr wrote:
>   [ The only person liable for criminal charges when an underage person
>     drinks is the "adult" who supplied the alcohol, he thinks ]
> 
> Think bigger.  If the local police decide that enough nuisances are being
> generated by any event, they are within their legitimate authority to
> shut that event down, mundane or not.  Peace Officers abating a Public
> Nuisance, and all that.

Yes. Actually, that's a valid point... Have there been many busts made at
Pennsic? If so, how many?

> Yes, perhaps, in a legal fight later, we can decide they overstepped
> their authority.  And, perhaps, if each and every one of the "adults"
> around a campsite is charged when an underage person drinks, we can
> all beat the rap.  But I very much want to avoid getting "charged"
> with such a crime, and want to avoid the fiscal and emotional costs
> of being charged, and beating the rap in a jurisdiction a thousand
> miles from home.

I think that's a good point. And what's more, I can agree with that... on
an individual basis. What I was more interested in was talking about what
the Pennsic hierarchies should do about this. Because unless there's a
serious risk of what your point in the first paragraph of happening, it's
more of a hazard to the people actually breaking the law than to Pennsic as
a whole...

> In the mean time, Pennsic is ruined, it's hard to run another, and bunches
> of us are fighting court cases, either as the prosecution or defense.
> It's not a pleasant possibility, and it makes sense to me, that we
> talk about how to avoid it.

Yeah. Naturally.

> Brynjolfr also discussed the reality of responsible drinking.  But,
> as we all know, reality and law have little to do with one another.
> (:-). 

Well, yes. That part of my post was more a reply to (I forget whose)
statement that underage drinking was ruining the SCA... the only SCAdian I
know around here who's an obnoxious drunk is very much above the minimum
age requirement...

> 	Tibor
> --
> Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Regarding Cameras at SCA events
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:30:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712408867.F00001


 TA>  From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
 TA>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
 TA>  Education
 TA>
 TA>  In article <712043902.F00003@therose.pdx.com>
 TA>  Katherine.Stewart@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Katherine
 Stewart)
 TA>  writes:
 TA>
 TA>  >in it so it isn't so obtrusive. I've even toyed with the idea
 of
 TA>  putting my
 TA>  >camera in a relicquary (sp?) and mounting it on a monopod
 TA>               ^^^^^^^^^^
 TA>  Wazzat?

If you saw the Mel Gibson "Hamlet" the large "jewel box" shaped like a 
little house, on Hamlet's desk, was a copy of a reliquary box the Vikings 
stole and was later found used as a...well...jewel box. (The Vikings must 
have wondered what those musty old bones were doing in that nice box! :-)

Since reliquaries of Celtic design were often house (probably chapel) shaped 
and not really large, and had round castings for decoration, it wouldn't 
take much to use such a box as a camera blind.

Period reliquaries of non-Celt design are also still surviving, often shaped 
like the hand or heart or whatever surviving body part the saint manifested 
miracles through. The barbarians destroyed many because the early Christians 
tended to first build a wood box, then cover this (over time) with gold or 
silver, and then (over another span of time) heavily encrust them with gems.

There is also a reliquary of a Bishop's shepards' crook (crozier) shaped 
just like the staff (with staff surviving) that belongs to a Scottish clan, 
and one of St. Patrick's hand bell he supposedly rang to attract converts. 
(And various feet, hands, eyes...)

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 02:31:31 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

In article <711589773.F00002@ocitor.fidonet>, Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> 
>     A person who failed to identify himself wrote:
> 
>     JL> >     Loresinger (East 10 May #39)

How odd that you should say that; your system's *mailer* could find the
initials of my mundane name, and my .sig (which contains my SCAdian name)
is automatically included at the end of each article.

I only mention this because you appear to be insinuating that I was
stating my opinions from behind the veil of anonymity;  I do not fear
to stand behind my words, and have never resorted to such cowardice.


>  Whether or not it "makes sense", immediate or otherwise, is irrelevant -
>  the question is whether it is "formed in a period manner"?
(a variation on this is repeated after each of my response blocks)

I do crave your pardon, but in your message (to Master Arval, I believe),
you took issue with this class of name specifically because the "random
adjective/random noun" combination "makes no immediate (or, often,
subsequent) sense to you" (paraphrased).

If you should happen to take exception with the use of a paraphrase,
please note that your actual words *were* quoted in my previous message
(which, for some reason, you failed to include in your reply to me).


>  They did not
>  compound two nouns to create a name for it, which is a Typical Fantasy
>  Novel Trick. I have no problems with it in a fantasy novel; I (and others)
>  have serious problems with it in the SCA.

I shall assume you mean all compound-word names, for the section of your 
message to which I replied concerned the "random-adjective/random-noun"
combination -- by your own words -- not noun-noun combinations.

Bearing this in mind, I ask:  what then, of Wytepintell, Wykdechire,
Trussloue, Sacchespee, Briselanse, and the other *ACTUAL PERIOD COMPOUND
EPITHETS* that Master Arval posted?  

Just because it's often done in fantasy novels doesn't mean that it's 
inauthentic...


>  If you bothered
>  to look into the subject (heavens, what a thought)

Ah, you're doing MORE than insinuating.  You're being BLATANTLY insulting.


> you would find that
> "hordes" were named after colors, not metals.

Can you quote some sources for this statement, please?


>  Again, as I say, it's not a question of "makes sense" (immediate or
>  otherwise) but rather of "period fashion". (You seem to have mastered the
>  "reading" aspect, now you need to work on the "understanding" part...)

It's nice to see that courtesy is never forgotten amongst the gentles of 
the Rialto.


>     Tadhg, Hanaper

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dancing at Pennsic
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:15:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712043902.F00013

AN>  From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
AN>
AN>  When I joined the SCA, they told me that when heralds shouted "oyez"
AN>  while
AN>  wearing a tabard, they were acting as the voice of the king, not the
AN>  voice of a dancing teacher. [etc.]

Well, this last is one of the places the SCA falls down in its re-creation. 
In period heralds were "hired guns", most of them. We really ought to be 
wearing a tabard with the king's or kingdom's arms on it, when we are the 
voice of the king.

At other times, we are the voice of whoever hired us, and ought to at least 
exhibit some badge of that personage while announcing for them, or doing 
their diplomatic bidding.

The SCA underuses heralds. Only the king's exclusive, hired-for-the-duration 
herald was his voice at all times and in all places, and he was a court 
officer in some eras. In earlier eras I believe he was at liberty to take 
other jobs, so long as they did not conflict. Heralds were originally found 
among the minstrels, and similarly for hire...

(And as such, may very well have worked for dancing masters, betimes! :-)

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 26 Jul 92 03:41:05 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:

> 
> 
> Since we can *prove* that the pentacle is really a *Christian* symbol in peri
> wouldn't it be more useful to explain to pagan submitters that it doesn't
> represent what they want anyway? It seems to me that a pagan using a pentacle
> is in violation of the Rules of Submission in regards to use of *modern*
> symbolism if it isn't  pagan within period. 
> 
> If I were pagan, I would be quite distressed to find out I was carrying a 
> Judeo-Christian mystic symbol around... And surely there are other symbols th
> pagans can use beside Thor's hammer. There are any number of pagan legends th
> the early Christians "hijacked" that convey important religious ideas that
> were bowdlerized for Christian ends. I would think they could be "rehabilitat
> for use by non-Christians. 
> 
> Maybe we just need to be more creative?
> 
you mean like the Grail?  that's always been a favorite of mine...  
wouldn't fit my persona tho.  she's Anglo-SAxon, not Celtic...
 
                                     _Walburge, who is letting ailsa talk

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:50:07 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson (GILBERT RICHARD) writes:

>A good handbook I've found for use of smilies... insert them where you'd
>normally laugh in a normal conversation. 

I disagree.  I believe the use of "smilies" stems from a decline
in the American educational system, to the extent that many people
can no longer read well enough to recognize humor in the written
word or write well enough to convey without the use of special
punctuation.  I, for one, refuse to pander to subliteracy.  This
problem is, I believe, especially prevalent on the Internet, since
UNIX seems to inflict a peculiar form of brain damage even on otherwise
intelligent people, making them completely unable to recognize even the
most blatant attempts at humor.  It is my medical opinion, however, that
providing these people with a sufficient number of smiley-faces to
relieve their suffering and discomfort can only result in smiley-face
dependency and more prolonged disability.

-- Nicholas van Leyden










Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG)
Subject: Rapier Combat
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:35:18 GMT

Greetings all,

I have watched the arguments go back and forth about whether or not
Rapiers were considered an honorable weapon to the nobility.  I am
guessing that this is to prove some legitimacy for its use in the SCA.
I have also seen postings that seem to indicate that the author would
like to see Rapier Combat in all of the Kingdoms (I believe there are 5
or 6 that do not allow it).
   What I have not seen is a good argument for why Rapier Combat needs
to be part of the SCA.  I have done some fencing and find it
enjoyable.  But I have also done some fighting by Tuchux rules and,
while it was "fun", I do not want it to become part of the SCA.  

So I ask again: Why Rapier Combat in the SCA? 

Is the SCA just a harbor for any activity that can be remotely
documented as being done between 600 - 1600?  I await your comments.

-Palymar


Distribution:
  SCA Digest >INTERNET:SCA@mc.lcs.mit.edu
   Jay Hoffman @ CCC [76447,2671]
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tablet/Card Weaving Question
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:20:00 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

I'm very much a beginner myself, but so far I've done all my weaving using
carpet warp.  It's a strong, not-too-thick, cotton thread that I've only
nnnnintentionally broken once.  Near as I can tell, it's a lot closer to
period weaving thread than the fat, fluffy yarns you can buy at K-Mart.

As for why your patterns are coming out elongated, there are two 
possibilities that come to mind.  First, is there a flaw in your pattern?
When weaving double-cloth you turn in groups of two, so when plotting your
pattern you need to make Xs that are twice as long, warpwise, as they are
wide (weftwise).  I don't entirely understand double-cloth myself yet, but
I gather this is just one of the facts of life with that weaving technique.

If your pattern is ok, the other thing to check is whether you're beating
your weft aggressively enough.  Have you done other sorts of tablet weaving?
Is this problem unique to your double-cloth?

There are a couple of tablet weaving classes on the schedule for Pennsic,
at least one of which is being taught by Mistress Rowena (Calontir? Middle?).
She does absolutely gorgeous work, so if you'll be at Pennsic and are at
all interested in tablet weaving, don't miss the class.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:52:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Joseph wrote:

> I understand from a herald in Polderslot (Netherlands, right Arval?) that
> he looked into SCA heraldry in regard to his country's laws.  The upshot
> there was that he talked with appropriate authorities, a emphasized the
> "theater" and educational nature of the SCA, and (I believe) got Royal
> permission to continue these activities in those contexts.  I think that
> Brigantia (or one of his predecessors) would have more of the story if 
> your interest continues.

First I've heard of it.  Unless this happened within the last 7 months, no
report was delivered to the Brigantia office.  Are there any Polderslotters
here who can clarify?

Master Marten Broeker, before he stepped down as Palimpsest, was talking
about writing to as many mundane heraldic authorities as possible, to try
to get a conclusive answer on their attitudes toward our armory.  I don't
think he had time to follow through, but the project is still on the back
burner. 

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PORTERG@ruby.vcu.EDU (Greg Porter)
Subject: Bluntness, 'filk', and tact
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:54:00 GMT

	Greetings to the Rialto:

	The current discusion sparked by Steven's remark on Christian's poem
reinforces the fact that this medium (E-mail), while very useful, does not
allow for tone of voice, body language, etc.  My initial response on reading
Steven's remark was 'what a harsh and uncalled-for thing to say.'  It came
across as a verbal slap, because that is the tone of voice I associate with
such a statement.  After reading numerous posts on the subject, it occurred
to me that the thing that really annoyed me was the assumption that 'Filk
has no place in the SCA.' Hal's reasonable comments on the subject (thanks,Hal)
where he defined 'filk' address the heart of the matter.  By his definition, 
I write contrefait (sp?), not filk.  That is, I write (and enjoy) original
words set to original music either on period folklore/beliefs or events in the
SCA.  Occasionally I use the music or words of others, or twist a known song's 
words in humerous fashion, but my stuff is primarily original.  It has been my 
experience that the people who stomp on filk (in the sense of anything not
written pre-1600) the hardest are those with a strong interest/backround in
medieval music, especially theory/forms.  I quess it offends their sense of
'rightness'.  I can sympathize with that(in my case, it's forced rhyme and
bad poetic structure).  However, one can express one's opinion tactfully.
This gets the idea that something is not as it should be and (hopefully) offers
the other person a chance to 'save face' and improve if they wish.

	I think the reason this subject has gotten so hot is that, for those
who write original songs, Steven's comment tends to be heard as "filk doesn't
belong in the SCA, and those who write it don't, either."  This hurts, and
tends to generate hurtful things.  The only way I have ever found to conclude
such a discussion is for both sides to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

	Fare well,

	Morgan Wolfsinger (Catherine DeMott) by my lord's net access

---------------------------------------------------------------
	Those who teach authenticity accomplish more that those who preach it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: lords...
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:13:51 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Aryk (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>>This was how it was explained to me when I was a newbie.  "Milord" was a 
>>common form of address, regardless of rank.  "Lord X" was a title, and only 
>>valid for the entitled types.

>Just a point.  "Milord" and "milady" are French forms of address for English
>nobility, just as "count" is used in English to translate the French "comte".

I believe the OED recognizes milord and m'lord as alternative forms
of "my lord."  (Same for "my lady.")  However, anyone who claims that
"my lord" (however you may choose to spell it) is a "common form of 
address, regardless of rank" is correct if he is talking about Renn Faires 
or the SCA and absolutely incorrect if he is talking about history.

-- Nicholas van Leyden

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov)
Subject: Teenage drinking
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:45:04 GMT


Unto all who read these words, greetings from
Yaakov

I should like to point out that, over the
last several years, there has been a considerable
broadening of liability for alcohol related
incidents.  While allowing minors to drink
at your fire may not get you arrested, it
can get you sued if the minor goes out and
injures self or others.  This, under the current
madcap tren, could be extended against the
Coopers and SCA inc. for providing the circumstances.
(Rant mode: Another example of how courts
responding to political/social pressures make real
poor legislatures. rant off.)

Yaakov
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dancemaster Amplificatio
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:45:14

>The attendees of the war have no incentive to learn the dances, since
>they know that every time they show up to dance someone will go over the  
>steps beforehand, and shout them out while the dance is going on. Why     
>don't you make it known that *no* teaching of the dances will occur during
>the Ball, and stick to it? Then have lots of smaller dance classes during 
>the preceding week, and on the afternoon before the Ball. Thus, people    
>will learn the dances, and you don't have to shout.                       
>                                                                          
>Branwen ferch Emrys                                                       
>The Mists, the West                                                       

YES!  Finally, someone besides me that can see that by teaching the
dances during the dancing stage, every time, we discourage people
from going to dance practices and classes!  Thank you!

For some time I went to dance practice every week.  While I enjoyed
the practices, I was very disappointed to find that those of us who
practiced (and taught) regularly were not allowed to *dance* at an
event.  We were expected to *teach* another class.

Even at events where dancing is taught during the day, when we
dance in the evening, we re-teach the dances.  Even at kingdom
dance workshop, with several sets of dance classes taking place
throughout the day, we were expected to re-teach in the evening.  I
got bored of always going to class and never getting to just dance!
Now I don't go to dance practice (though there are other reasons in
addition to this) and I rarely go out of my way to find dancing at
an event.  (But if I stumble across it, I may stumble through a
dance or two.)

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gundesrup Cauldron
Date: 27 Jul 1992 16:24:50 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <712232284.F00002@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:
>
>Now I don't know for sure, but would the Gundesrup Cauldron fit both 
>cultures? It is sort of Celtic, but was found in Demark.

But it was made in India--there was an article on it in the Scientific
American a year or so ago.

And don't forget 
>that Germanic and Celtic and Gaullish pagan religions seem to have had a lot 
>of commerce between them in one time or another.

Heck, they were all speaking Indo-European languages and practicing (suitably
modified) Indo-European culture to one extent or another.  Though it's been
quite a while back, comparative mythologists can reconstruct a few details
about Indo-European religion.  George Dumezil's written a lot of good stuff--
unfortunately it's in French and most of it hasn't been translated....

Wondering where I put that Petite Larousse....


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca