From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:11:57 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BvtA00.9Lv@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:
[..]
>Well, yes, I am familiar with Andronikos' work (though I wouldn't claim
>to have read everything he ever wrote!) and I know one of his British
>collaborators quite well. But this isn't the sort of issue which can be
>settled by archaeological evidence alone.

Perhaps, but an archaeologist is not just a digger. Since you
are in the fortunate position of knowing this particular man,
you are mentioning, why not ask him for guidance?

>> Note: In Greece, this emblem is
>> known as "The Sun of Vergina"; noone in Greece (as far as I can
>> remember) ever called it a "Star" (Gold -> Sun, Silver -> Moon,
>> etc normally).

>Star seems to be the term universally used in this group! I just
>wondered, since it was used so regularly and emphatically, whether there
>was some information pointing in that direction.

A golden star, could be nothing but the sun, I suppose (colour
of gold). The Incas made the same choice. But, of course, no
other hard facts handy; sorry.

>> 2. Try the (related) publications from Oxford and Cambridge.
>> But be careful. The term 'Greek' was not always in use to
>> describe all Greeks. Remember the term(s) Homer used for this
>> purpose.

>You lose me here. Are you talking about the University Presses? There
>are other academic publishers you know! But we all have access to the
>standard bibliographical tools - except that there are sometimes bits of
>new information which come to light which aren't published immediately -
>that's all. Yes, I know how ancient authorities refer to the Greeks.

Both! However, these two Universities have a long tradition
(UCL at London is not bad either) and I assume they must have
Internal (or official 'external') reports/newsletters, etc.

>>Also don't try "soc.culture.greek". For highly
>> specialist discussions, you should try (I think)
>> "comp.classics". We are here to make discussions, express
>> opinions and mainstream (with some exceptions) data. I don't
>> think anybody here is a PhD in archaeology.

>No. I disagree. The readers of this group have an enormous variety of
>backgrounds both academic and national (as I have discovered from the
>masses of mail I have received since using this group). It is not
>the private possession
>of Greek computer scientists. How do you know that no-one has a PhD in
>archaeology? Some people in this group are very knowledgeable indeed

I don't know; I assume that most (excetions always exist) study
such things out of hobby (as I do). But yes, some people are
very knowledgeable indeed.

>(though I have never enquired about their qualifications). If you are
>saying that ancient history has nothing to do with contemporary issues,
>then I am 100% with you. But that is not what many of those posting here
>think!

As a science, very little with contemporary history. Politics
though, are everywhere. Emotionally I may still beleive that
only Greeks had (at any point in history) to claim the
Macedonian identity for a part of theirs; logically, for today,
I see this claim by the Skopjans as a repeated 1900s Bulgarian/Slav
attempt to 'create' claims on my home city (Thessaloniki).
So,...
>When I subscribed to this group, I hoped for discussion and information
>on what was happening in Greece and among Greeks - culture, politics,
>the economic situation etc. etc. In fact the group has been dominated by
>rabid propagandists (on all sides, I should say) who have been mangling
>my subject! Should I just sit back and take it? Or should I say that if
>people make people on either side make wild statements which can't be
>substantiated, I'll jump on them. How would you feel if your subject was
>treated that way?

Can you speak/read Modern Greek? There is such a group (~70
mails/day), which is the mainstream group for Greeks. The name?
'bit.listserv.hellas'; a real Greek coffee shop!

>I do find it very offensive when someone who puts forward a view which I
>know to be defensible on the basis of the evidence, and which is held by
>a number of decent sound scholars (even when I disgree with it myself),
>is abused, insulted, and accused of being biased, anti-Greek, and
>ignorant.

Well, if you are refering to A.T.Fear, I dissagree with some of
the characterizations attributed to him, but I beleive he is
biased in a more-than-normal degree. At the very end give
Greeks the benifit of the doubt...

>Yes, I agree, restrict discussions on ancient history to sci.classics.
>Provided everbody does that. But if you post here, I'll answer you here!

NO! I didn't mean this. If you want a more *professional*
discussion, take it up to people that are (by definition of the
group name) professional/serious amateurs. There are such
people here, too. Andronikos Rwmanos is such a serious amateur
(I beleive). Andronikos? If you read this, it's for you!
             ******************************************

>But the question about the star/sun was a genuine question. Quite often,
>people in touch with the local situation can find out about new
>discoveries before they appear in the academic press. I don't know what
>the conventions are in your field, but in mine the excavator of a site
>always has priority in publication. In the case of people who aren't
>as energetic as they might be, the result is sometimes scandalous
>delays. But often something will appear in the local press, or get out
>through the grapevine. It's worth keeping your ears open. Which is why I
>ask.

Why not? No problem (at least with me) in asking.

With all due respect

Panayotis

PS If you come down to London for a weekend, why not discuss
all this over a cup of coffee (or a glass of wine/beer)?

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