From: nyarko@ee.ualberta.ca (David Nyarko)
Subject: Re: Kenneth Hagin Was Re: The Warnke Debate
Keywords: FLAME AWAY
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:55:27 GMT


kroth@david.wheaton.edu (Ken Roth) writes:

>In article <1992Aug7.054458.5875@galileo.physics.arizona.edu> krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu (Ted Krueger) writes:
>>In article <63nm68@lynx.unm.edu> morgan7@carina.unm.edu (christopher c lewisair) writes:
>>>(for example, Kenneth Hagin's claiming that AIDS will increase
>>>until we start formally executing witches and satanists in our society).
>>>
>>Sorry Chris, but I can't let you get away with that one without a reference.  
>>I have studied Jesus with help from Kenneth Hagin for many years and can't 
>>believe that he would say something like that.  Unless you can give a 
>>complete reference, I will be forced to believe that you have either taken 
>>his statement out of context or perhaps that this is simply an urban myth.
>>Ted


>To be honest, I do not know the source of the earlier quote from Hagin (I
>didn't post it) but Hagin has said so many other things that are absurd, or
>just plain wrong, that I would not put it past him (I know, a logical fallicy,
>but oh well, we all have our quirks8-).

>Just a few examples:  (and yes, I do have sources for all of these...)

After reading the responses below, I am not totally convinced as to the
fact that they are not scriptural. In addressing an audience, be it 
through preaching, teaching or in a book, the pastor, teacher or
author assumes or expects the knowledge of certain fundamental issues. Our
knowing what these fundamental issues are we enable us to understand
what is going on. An example from the Bible is in Heb 6:1 where the
writer expected those who heard or read the Epistle to leave certain
teachings which are elementary and press on to maturity. Apparently
this was not the case and is still not the case among all believers now.
Heb 6:1-2 mentions those elementary teachings the writer was referring to.
So with most of the statements you attributed to Kenneth Hagin below,
this principle applies. If we do not know what the basics he expects of
the readers or listeners are, we are then not in a good enough position
to judge his statements as being unscriptural especially if Biblical
references can be found to support them and they do produce fruit to
Glorify God.

>"You can have what you say.  You can write your own ticket with God.  And the
>first step in writing your own ticket with God is :Say it."

If by "writing your own ticket with God" we mean God coming through
for us as we seek first his Kingdom I don't see what's wrong with that.
In Acts 10:38 we see that Jesus ministered as one anointed with the
Holy Spirit. In Jesus's healing/deliverance ministry we see he "SPOKE"
to the person or demon. Nowhere are we told he just thought in his mind
and deliverance occured. The acts of the Apostles also give us similar
cases of speaking, rebuking etc. Rom 10:9-10 also mentions a confession (
speaking ) with the mouth and a believing regarding salvation.

>He also claims that Jesus told him "If anybody, anywhere, will take these four
>steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always have
>whatever he wants from Me or God the Father"  (The four steps are: say it, do
>it, receive it, and tell it.)  Sounds like God is a gumball machine...

The "anybody" in this statement cannot refer to an
unbeliever but to a believer and as a believer we should be living
Romans 12:1-2. In this instance, we will be relying on the Holy Spirit
as our guide so will ask according to God's will for us. It all goes
back to what basic premises Kenneth Hagin expects. 
See John 14: 12-14

>"I wouldn't tell anybody if I had a doubt-thought, or a fear-thought.  I
>wouldn't accept it.  I wouldn't tell somebody if the thought came to me - and
>you know the devil can put all kinds of thoughts in your mind."  So, if you
>are having problems, just deal with them yourself...

I don't believe we can conclude that statement means that if we are having
problems, we should then deal with them ourselves. He is simply stating the
course of action he would take. Depending on one's level of Christian
maturity one can take care of his own "problems" without having brethren
to stand with him in prayer on the issue. Every believer can and must
exercise the authority he or she has in Christ Jesus( 2 Corinth 10:3-5,
1 Peter 5:6-9 among others.) in addition we should pray for one another.
Let's study Paul's prayers and his requests for prayer to see what his
requests to the brethren were.

>"Believe in your heart; say it with your mouth.  That is the principle of
>faith.  You can have what you say."

Mark 11:23-24, Rom 10:9-10. However note that believing in your heart
is not just thinking it in your mind. The nearest analogy to this
I can come up with has to do with the 7 sons of Sceva in Acts 19:10-17.
I believe they did not know or believe the Lord Jesus Christ in their
hearts (I stand corrected on this , since other factors could be involved).

>"It is unscriptural to pray, 'If it is the will of God.'  When you put an 'if'
>in your prayer, you are praying in doubt."  READ I John 5:14!!!!!!

In this statement, what type of prayer was he talking about. Most of us
have put all prayer as one. Eph 6:18 implies there can be different 
categories. James 5:15 mentions "the prayer of Faith". In Mark 11:24 
Jesus is refering to prayer and the statement does not use an if. We
see the prayer of faith. There is the prayer of consecration, an
example of which is what we have in Matt. 26:39. The prayer we term
the Lord's prayer does not have an if in it. So the use of the "if"
depends on the type of prayer.

>He has also stated that "...when Jesus appeared to me in a vision, I asked him
>and He told me that Paul wrote it [Hebrews]."  It would be nice to have that
>kind of authority giving the rest of these answers...

Some people believe the book of Hebrews was written by Paul and others
that it was not. In this statement either we believe Jesus appeared to
kenneth Hagin etc. or we don't. This doesn't make the statement
unscriptural, unless we are saying this statement that Paul wrote 
Hebrews is unscriptural or Jesus appearing to someone today is also
unscriptural.

>Anyway, you get the idea...

>If you want me to mail you the sources of these, I will be more than happy to.
>While I am more than convinced that diversity in Christianity is important and
>good, contradictions of scripture should NOT be tolerated.  BTW, the items in
>quotes are from Hagin, the rest of the comments are mine.

>In Christ,
>Ken

>-- 
So in conclusion, we must know the basis upon which writers, etc base their
writings. Barring that we could say for example " these are statements made
by XXXX and they seem a bit out of place to me could anyone enlighten me
on other aspects of XXXX's teachings which could let these fit in the right
place scripturally ?"


>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>kroth@wheaton.uucp | uunet!tellab5!wheaton!kroth || They call me Gryfalia   
>"We believe, we believe, 'cause we felt it burning in our hearts"--77's

-------- David Nyarko   |  Internet: nyarko@bode.ee.ualberta.ca -----
"A result of GOD's love for mankind was the giving of his only Son
Jesus Christ so that anyone who believes in his Son would instead of
perishing as GOD's justice demands, rather have eternal life."
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