HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alex@engr3.umbc.edu (alex)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,talk.politics.space,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Clinton and Space Funding
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:30:26 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus

In article <1992Sep14.000925.21854@news.columbia.edu>, egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:

|> >	Because they're going to have to get
|> >	lots and lots of money from somewhere,
|> >	---without raising taxes or slashing social spending---
|> >	and they're going to have to do it in a Big Hurry,
|> >	since there will be a lot of pressure on them to get quick results
|> >	in order to prepare for the next election.

	I don't think that this is a partisan issue. Bush is actually talking
about across the board tax cuts, and since he hasn't offered a somution
to the ballooning entitlement programs, the space program is going to
look pretty tasty, come budget time.

	If Clinton can really pull off welfare reform and health insurance
reform, he opens the door to restructuring medicare and medicaid, which
is the only hope for long term budget relief. In any case, his whole
economic plan is based on investment in hte infrastructure, which includes
space and computer technology.

-- 
                               Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,
 nor should they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under God"
                                     - George Herbert Walker Bush, Feb 1989
From: jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: new name for NASA?
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:36:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BuJAo3.7C1.1
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

Nick Szabo writes:
 
>'Twas carelessness, but it is an interesting idea.  Since we have a 
>North American Free Trade Agreement, it would make some sense to combine
>our efforts in space as well.
 
This is a really bad idea.
 
There are critical aerospace technologies getting support from Mexico 
and Canada because NASA HQ has deemed them politically incorrect. 
 
The more centralized we have made funding for space technology, the more
that funding has been used to suppress progress in space.
Xref: sparky sci.space:13014 sci.astro:9727
From: slb@slced1.nswses.navy.mil (Shari L Brooks)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
Subject: Re: Clinton and Space Funding
Keywords: cross posting
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:16:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Naval Satellite Operations Center, Point Mugu, CA

In article <pgf.716434261@srl02.cacs.usl.edu> pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu 
(Phil G. Fraering) writes:

[opinions on space funding, of course]

>
>I am cross-posting this back to sci.space because I think
>that right now the idea of a separate talk.politics.space
>is asinine.
>
...for which, those of us who can neither recieve nor post to talk.anything
or alt.anything, are profoundly grateful, as this topic does touch on our
livelyhoods...

>           --> Support UN military force against Doug Mohney <--

Indubitably!  :)

--
 Shari L Brooks                  |      slb%suned1.nswses.navy.mil@nosc.mil
 NAVSOC code NSOC323D            |             shari@caspar.nosc.mil
 NAWS Pt Mugu, CA 93042-5013     |  ==> this will change by the end of Sept <==
The US Navy probably disagrees w/all statements/opinions above, which are mine.
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.sci.planetary
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct/ options
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:50:34 GMT

In article <15008@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes...
> 
>Would it be possible to aerobrake at Uranus or Neptune, perhaps also using the
>atmosphere to change trajectory significantly?  This would provide a fast
>flight for much of the journey and have the remaining part at a speed slow
>enough for aerobraking in Pluto's atmosphere, or at least a much slower pass by
>Pluto.  It would also allow a mission at Uranus or Neptune.

I don't think the planets will cooperate on this.  In the early 1970's, the
outer planets were lined up so that a spacecraft could have slingshoted
from Jupiter to Saturn to Uranus to Neptune to Pluto via gravity assists.
In fact, this was the original Grand Tour envisioned for Voyager.  But
delayed funding caused the Pluto option to be dropped, and the alignment
among the other planets has worsened since then.  Voyager 2 just did
make the window for Uranus/Neptune.   

The idea though is on the right track.  Some studies are being done at JPL
on aero-gravity assists.  Using aero-gravity assists, a spacecraft can
go from Earth to Pluto in only 5 years.
An aero-gravity assist is where an aerodynamic spacecraft (called a waverider) 
flies in very close to a planet through its atmosphere such that the lift 
force balances the centrifugal force, and the resulting trajectory change is 
better than that of a traditonal gravity assist.  There is some loss of 
velocity due to atomspheric drag, but that is more than compensated for by 
the gain in the trajectory deflection.   The 5 year trajectory to Pluto has 
been worked out using aero-gravity assists of Venus and Mars.  It also turns 
out that Mars is the best planet in most cases to use aero-gravity assists on.

There are some issues to be resolved to make aero-gravity assist a
reality.  The shape of the spacecraft has to be long and slender with a 
sharp leading edge, and more research is needed to determine the 
optimal shape.  There are also some uncertainties about the heating rates 
of the spacecraft through an atmosphere of carbon dioxide.  

Angus McRonald and James Randolph from JPL have done the research into
aero-gravity assists, and they have published their results in the
March/April 1992 issue of the Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets.
This is highly recommended reading.  
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Anything is impossible if
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you don't attempt it.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | 

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering")
Subject: Re: Pluto Fast Flyby mission goals...
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:35:34 GMT


In article <pgf.716428013@srl02.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>--
>Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
>Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560
>
>           --> Support UN military force against Doug Mohney <--

Doug Mohney replies (finally):

Gee, and I was starting to feel sorry for the folks who got hit by Hurricane
Andrew down in Swampland U.S.A.....:->

I wasn't serious; I basically was wondering _if_ _ANYONE_ ever read
those .signature thingies. I think I've had that one for about four
days, and you just noticed?


-- 
Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560
"NOAH!"
"Yes Lord?"                          - Bill Cosby
"HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?"
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Clinton, Gore, Space
Keywords: space station, shuttle, cash
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:27:09 GMT

jmcd@cea.berkeley.edu (John McDonald) writes:

>begin 664 signature.uu
>M:F]H;E\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7VUC9&]N86QD"@E!
>M<G1I<W1S(%!R;W9O:V4@06QI96YS"E]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?
>M+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+0IC96YT97(@(" @("!F;W(@(" @("!E=78@
>2(" @("!A<W1R;W!H>7-I8W,*

Could someone tell me what this was? nn's built in decoder
--
Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560

           --> Support UN military force against Doug Mohney <--
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: weberk@cs.curtin.edu.au (Keven Weber)
Subject: Galileo and Ulysses fact sheets
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:47:47 GMT


G'day all,

I'm after copies of the Galileo and Ulysses fact sheets.
If anyone has either of these could they send me a copy?

Cheers.


Keven.
--

-----
Email: weberk@cs.curtin.edu.au
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:21:40 GMT

In article <samw.715971213@bucket> samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) writes:

> Re Venus: We seem to know more about the Venusian atmosphere than I
> knew we knew.  :-)  Since when are the _upper_ clouds H2SO4?  And,
> do we really know what the overall composition of the crust and
> atmosphere is, to say that there is somehow an "excess" of oxygen?
> Were Venus ever to cool off, I would expect ferocious amounts of
> oxidation/carbonation weathering to occur, for example.

The "excess" of oxygen is that if the CO2 is converted to biomass
and oxygen, we now have 100x more oxygen that in Earth's atmosphere.
What that really means is that it is impossible to convert more
than a tiny fraction of the carbon to reduced form before it is
oxidized back to CO2 again.  So the planet doesn't cool off.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
From: higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct Propulsion Options Part II: The Silly Season
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:52:10 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

In article <BuDKMp.KnM.1@cs.cmu.edu>, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering") writes:
> 
> hs>It is extremely difficult to combine a reasonable payload and a manageably
> hs>short trip time with an orbiter mission.  Pluto is *a long way away*; to
> hs>get there in under a decade, the probe has to be fast.  
> 
> dm>Aerobrake? 
> Since Nick hasn't said it yet, I will...
> 
> Lithobrake!

Believe it or not, this has actually been proposed for the Moon, I
think by Kraft Ehricke.  See his "Lunar Slide Lander" proposals, in
early-80s *Acta Astronautica*, among other places.

Moira Higgins on entertainment:      Bill Higgins
"The effects on the new              Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
*Star Trek* make the old one         Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
look like a Sixties TV show!"        Bitnet:   HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.space.shuttle
From: ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu (George Hastings)
Subject: Re: mission badges for Apollo and STS
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 21:37:16 GMT

Try writing to:
     Space Patch Collector's Club
     P.O.Box 17310
     Pittsburg, PA 15235-0310
-- 
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: RL-10
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:22:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.133554.28448@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:

>As I noted in the part you deleted, after 30 years they are still going
>boom. After 30 years, the Wright Flyer was replaced by the DC-3. There's

One of the accidents you described in the past 20 years would have posed
a danger to ship or crew. That's a record Douglas would have been proud
to claim for the DC-3.

But your main error is in measuring experience by calendar time. The
best way to measure experience is the time the hardware flies. By that
measure, we are barely in the 20s.

>a limit to how many times you stretch old designs before you get out a
>clean sheet of paper and start over. 

Sure. But that is for the market to decide.

Look at it this way, if your right then when the market opens up for
launches the primitive Delta and Titan launchers will fail to the better
cheaper faster launchers you say will be built. It will also happen
faster since builders won't be hampered by Congress to do it.

So why does this bother you so much?

>Atlas, Delta, and Titan are well past that point. 

Since conservative designs exist to use them for cheap HLV's reducing
costs by a factor of four this statement is hard to accept.

>Instead of stretching them again, it seems better to
>me to start with a new design for a HLV, one that employs lessons learned
>about rocket propulsion over the last 40 years.

If your right, they don't worry; it will happen if we adopt commercial
procurement. The current way just isn't doing it. Every launcher built
the way you would have it for the past 20 years has actually INCREASED
the cost of access to space. NLS alone (if built) will actually cost
33% more to put a pound into LEO than a Commercial Titan.

   Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  aws@iti.org     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------222 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+
From: jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Terraforming needs to begin now
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:48:47 GMT
	<11SEP199202381403@reg.triumf.ca>
Organization: I would rather be windsurfing.
In-reply-to: vincent@reg.triumf.ca's message of 11 Sep 92 09:38:00 GMT


> use the glass to form solar mirrors
> to fire the glass factories

Yes, I had thought of that as well.

>  The vapour is condensed by cool sea water flowing into the
> system along the tops of the evaporators.

That's an item I hadn't figured out, though one idea I had would be to
pump it to deeper cooler currents (if they exist in the nearby
ocean/sea -- such as the currents that run along the US's west coast)
or pump the vapour into storage facilities to condense in the cool
night air (I made that one up just now).

Or, how about irrigating directly with vapour.  Pump the vapour in
pipes a few feet underground with holes periodically where the vapour
can espace and pass through the soil, which could cool and absorb the
water.  Plant plants with deep roots to get to the water.

> labour

With all the unemployment in the world?  Seems like a great project
for workfare (I don't believe in welfare).  You have a huge labour
fource sitting there starving, unable to grow crops or doing anything
else to enrich & feed themselves.  You give them food and shelter in
exchange for them working on the project & once its built, they can
start growing their own food and become self sufficient.

> glass requires lime

Don't know much about this.  Any limestone in Africa, Outback, etc?

> how do you pump the seawater cheaply? 

This ones' easy.  Tides & waves & gravity & sun.  Water will just flow
into the canals if they can be kept at sea level or lower -- I know
nothing of the topography of the world's deserts, so this might not be
doable.  Design a pump that will pump sea water using the power from
rising and lowering tides and waves and line the cost solid with them
(Maybe puting them a few miles out, so they can't be seen by the
tourists on the beaches).  Steam power comes to mind too.  Put some of
the solar furnaces along the beach and canal to create steam power.
--
============================================================================
Jeffrey Glen Jackson  _|_Satan jeered, "You're dead meat Jesus, I'm gonna
jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com |     bust you up tonight."
x5120                  | Jesus said, "Go ahead, make my day."
                   ~~~~~~~~~ -- Carman, "The Champion"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
	Politically, I am neither conservative nor liberal --
		     I think for myself instead.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 18:15:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Distribution: sci
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu

In article <BuF7JH.C9A.1@cs.cmu.edu>, amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk writes:
>
>I might add that the Club of Rome types also refuse to consider  
>extraterrestrial resources and energy. All of their simulations are based  
>on closed, technologically static systems. This makes their models a waste  
>of MIPS.

Well, I kinda have problems about adding ET-Ms, because the bootstrap
requirements are pretty freakin' high, despite Szabo's Ice Mining Inc. 
numbers. There's a LOT of room for optimization in ground-bound processes, even
if you use minimal-impact (i.e. bunny-hugger :-) technology. 

Small example: Cleaning circuit boards with ordinary water and lemon juice 
rather than CFCs. Saves money AND keeps GreenPeacers happy.

Bigger example: Explosive development of faster-stronger computing power and
the race by computer science folks to use it all :-) 

Most Club of Romer's can now watch the world die in the privacy of their own
homes, rather than running sloppy models on electricity-sucking mainframes. 

>I really don't think the eventual use of ETM's is questionable. The only  
>possible argument between optimists and pessimists is whether the have a  
>big impact in the next couple decades or whether it is a hundred or a  
>thousand years in the future. Is there anyone out there dumb enough to make  
>a bet that there won't be significant imports to Earth from Mars by 2992?
>
>PS: I think I'd win the bet if I lived even until 2050. 

We'll have to go through another generation or two of transporation systems
before we create real markets. Consider one generation = 20 year... call it
2030ish. 

The real work starts on the Moon. Minimal gravity and natural resources by the
ton. It's unlikely we'll start for-profit (EVILEVILWORD) mining of it before
2010-2015, because it's going to take the United States (or any other economic
congomerate) til 2000+ to get back and do proper resource recon & R&D in a
pilot sense. 

 
                 Play in the intelluctual sandbox of Usenet 

  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 15:57:26 GMT

In article <BuFoFx.2Mr@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes:

>>Let me key you in: Starvation in Ethopia and Somalia is due to political
>>warfare and strife, not because there's a lack of food production. We're not
>>going to starve ourselves off the planet. 

> I've always wondered about logic like this.  I suppose the increasing 
> population in sub-saharan Africa to going to stabilize politics thus
> making food available?  Sure.  Makes sense to me.  If there's food in the 
> grain elevator they have no excuse for going around and starving themselves
> to they?

Let's try again.  To first order, the density of population in
sub-saharan Africa is not the cause of food shortages there.  Reducing
the population in Somalia by 50% will not reduce the fraction of
people starving.  This is because people produce food as well
as consume it.

Your non sequitur appears to be the following: If there is
overpopulation, then people would starve.  People are starving.
Therefore, there is overpopulation.

Societies in Somalia and Ethiopia have always had to cope with
intermittent food supplies.  They've had successful ways of doing
this, employing private stockpiles and liquidation of lifestock during
times of drought.  These strategies are vulnerable to interference
from despotic governments or general anarchy.  Looters in Somalia
have destroyed much of the country's infrastructure: water supplies,
agriculture equipment, livestock.  Is it surprising that people
die when the social life support system on which they depend
is destroyed?

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu




Newsgroups: sci.space
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 17:11:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Without references it is difficult to remember, but isn't there
water, water vapor and possible liquid water along the interface of
the Martian north pole? 

If so, shouldn't this represent a possible seeding area for life forms?

I also seem to remember that the upper atmosphere of Venus was
mostly water vapor even though the bulk of the atmosphere was
sulphuric acid.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I don't believe that
Venus could ever be made earthlike. I see the chance, however,
of seeding life there and letting it make it's own way.

The same with Mars. All of the grandiose plans aside I can't see
the bulk of the necessary machinery being transported to Mars to
terraform it and then the project continued for thousands of years.

Earth has been changed dramaticaly by the life forms inhabiting it
and I think that, given a chance, life will find a way to change
both Venus and Mars to suit itself -- or to change itself to suit
the conditions there.

The only necessary assistance that we need make is to supply a large
enough gene pool with enough of the correct survival genes to allow
life to survive while these changes take place.
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:08:51 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep9.144121.18503@techbook.com> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:
>
>>Of course it would be unethical to interfere with any life
>>there may be already there.
>
>"Of course?"  Has our civilization changed so much that this notion
>is not only accepted, it is taken for granted?

NASA has taken very great pains to exclude any contamination 
another planet with earth biology. Whether it is just because it
might screw up the tests or because of the ethics of the
matter I don't know.

But I think that, yes, we have progressed at least that much.
From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering")
Subject: Re: One small step for a space act. vol 3 no 9
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:05:01 GMT

Allen Sherzer writes:
\In article <py6y41p@rpi.edu> kentm@aix.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) writes:

/>I, personally, believe a Delta Clipper, HL-20, or NASP-derived vehicle will
\>be funded very shortly after PMC (well, probably EMCC).

/How? All the money which could be used will be spent on Freedom and
\Shuttle.

/I hope we will get Delta Clipper, it is the only bright spot on the
\horizion. But if we do get it I hope you realize what an inditement
/it will be against the buisness as usual attitude at NASA.

\  Allen

BTW, did anyone _read_ the text of Al Gore's Birmingham speech?
He blasted the Bush admin for spending money on "wild ideas"
like Brilliant Pebbles instead of channeling it to Huntsville
where it belonged.

Ugh.

-- 
Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560
If seven maids with seven brooms swept for half a year,
do you think, the Walrus asked, that they could make it clear?
I doubt it, said the Carpenter, and shed a bitter tear.
---------
"NOAH!"                        \           \ Lewis Carrol
"Yes lord?"                     > Bill Cosby, The Story of Noah
"HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?"/