HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Why 5.7 is harder than 5.10 (was ratings)
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:38:18 GMT

In article <Aug14.192722.13125@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, 
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

|>In article <1992Aug13.013729.16775@nas.nasa.gov>
|>eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
|>>
|>>1) The MAJORITY of people I have met who CLAIMED they could "climb"
|>5.10
|>>never LED 5.10.
|>
|>I can CLIMB 5.10X!  Pretty bold, eh?
|>

Hey, ... I can BOULDER 5.10NC!!!!  (NC= No Chalk)

--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too badly"
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel
From: lizb@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Liz Bradley)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:38:59 GMT
	<LIZB.92Aug19111201@klosters.ai.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug19.181901.29163@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
	<TED.92Aug20185538@aeolia.nmsu.edu>
Reply-To: lizb@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
In-reply-to: ted@nmsu.edu's message of 21 Aug 92 01:55:38 GMT

Ted Dunning writes:

   most rope twist can be avoided with the munter hitch if you take the
   effort and know how.

I've always wondered about the topology here: how can a rope get a net
twist in it at ALL when the climbers attached to its two ends don't
rotate?  Shouldn't the number of clockwise and counterclockwise twists
be equal?  When you're trying to coil my rope after belaying through a
munter hitch or a figure 8, it certainly *seems* like a net twist has
been applied.  Confused.

(Sorry; this is what happens when you let an MIT nerd go climbing :-)

Liz Bradley
MIT AI Lab
From: u9053042@cs.uow.edu.au (Ian William White)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Mt Keira Clmibing
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:50:58 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia


Gday, 
	A couple of us here at wollongong uni have started climbing on
mt Keira (in Wollongong), and we have headr rumours of a guide book

if anyone knows of this book, or have climbed on Mt Keira, please
drop me a line, id love to discuss climbs ...

	Thanks

			Ian

-- 
        Ian the Gnurfling Paddy       | Mrs Elks theory about Brontosaurus's:
   Uni of Wollongong, NSW, Australia. | Brontosaurus's are thin at one end, 
       4 Moore St,Kieraville 2500     | much, *much* thicker in the middle,
u9053042@cs.uow.edu.au  +61 042 295561| and thin at the other end. **WOW**
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:00:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.213427.6180@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>,
bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington) writes:
>IMHO, I think hip belays should go the way of Goldline ropes. Sure, they
>were the safest thing going, but belay devices are in general much more
>reliable. Quang-Tuan Luong is right: people should know how to hip belay,
>just in case they have to, and I agree with Liz Bradley: a Munter hitch
>is preferable to a hip belay. But, from some recent postings, I got the impression
>that some people were still using hip belays as a matter of routine. I
>think this is foolish.
>
One thing about a hip beylay -- it eliminates one possible source of
"equipment failure".

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Stupid quotes
Keywords: stupid
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:25:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.170246.1766@novell.com>, cranch@novell.com (Christopher Ranch) writes:
> In article <1992Aug12.051011.29127@unixg.ubc.ca> goldberg@unixg.ubc.ca (Goldberg Andrew) writes:
> >
> >	HELP.  I've fallen and I can't get up.
> >
> >			- Mrs. Fletcher
> 
> 	HELP.  I've tripped and I can't come down.
> 
> 			- heard at a dead show

	HELP.  I've risen and I can't get down.

			- Jesus trying to boogie post-resurrection

Um, climbing.  
		"Lieback or die, Jack!"

Anyone want to give "Mantle or..." a try?  :-)

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt)
Subject: Re: Please explain the rating system
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:58:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.080657.11720@draco.macsch.com> todd@draco.macsch.com (Todd C. Williams) writes:
>In article <1992Aug6.142219.25633@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jmorton@euler.Berkeley.EDU (John Morton) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug6.130902.10284@odin.corp.sgi.com> bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey) writes:
>>>John Morten Sez:
>>>
>>>|> In talking this over I suggested that we purify the rating system by
>>>|> specifying benchmark levels, sort of like the scale of mineral hardness.
>>>
>>>Nice idea, but could you elaborate some more with examples directly related
>>>to climbing routes?
>>
>>No. :-)  The concept breaks down when you begin to think about it. 
>>You would need to make a detailed specification of surface texture to
>>describe a standard difficulty, and surely nobody cares about it that
>>much.
>>On the other hand ... we could keep the platinum/iridium International 
>>5.9 Standard in a sealed chamber at 72 deg. F in Paris,...
>
>I don't think it's that difficult.  Ever read the qualitative descriptions
>of the Richter scale?  Can't we even begin to describe what a *typical*
>5.9 would be?  One example- at what level do overhangs typically begin?

Well, I can think of a handful of overhangs (and large bulges, beyond
vertical) rated < 5.7, in the Boulder area. Several 5.5's - some a bit
run out, but on good holds. A small sample:
	Wind Ridge 3 - 5.6, one of the oddest bits of climbing I've done.
	Calypso 2 - 5.5 (2 starts with 15-20 feet of bulge)
	Winky Woo 1 - 5.4 (haven't actually done it, but it is 100 ft
                      of buckets on an overhanging wall).
	

(Eugene - your pictures are on their way home...thanks for the gift!)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God works in a mysterious way-                                            
The Church can sleep and eat at once.                                     
  --T.S. Eliot, The Hippopotamus                                          
..............................................................................
s.w. marlatt, <><  &  *(:-)
University of Colorado:                   marlatt@spot.Colorado.edu  492-3939
National Center for Atmospheric Research: marlatt@neit.cgd.ucar.edu  497-1669
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Why 5.7 is harder than 5.10 (was ratings)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 23:26:52 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug14.032652.8094@morrow.stanford.edu>
AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>There is a certain wicked humor in watching one of the aforesaid
>5.10 (and up) climbers experience one of Yosemite's clasic 5.6
>chimneys for the first time.  Heh, heh, snicker, snicker.

True.

I needt not be a chimney, just a nice solid jam (fingers, hands, fist...)
You'd get the cries that there are just no holds [on the face].
Then you retry the lead and get excellent, clean, finger locks or fists.

The newbie should be given the benefit of a doubt.  Several fine climbers
of the past were told they would never amount to much after their first
climbs (Harding, Powell, others).  It's great finding a talent.  Just
make certain you take them on short climbs, first.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky)
Subject: Looking for a partner for the Nose route on El Cap.
Organization: intel corporation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:04:43 GMT


 A friend of mine, Randy Peeters would like to climb the nose route
this fall. If you are interested in doing the route please call him
at 916-355-4302, or 916-983-6148. He is a lot of fun to climb with.
And from what I have seen he does not wear lycra. 


Michael 
--
Michael Brodesky Internet Mbrodesky@sc9.Intel.com
UUCP : {pur-ee,qanad,oliveb,decwrl,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!brodesky
Sally sold sea shells. Ned Needamyer needled his nose on the nose. 
During the week I climb left to right. On weekends I climb up and down.
From: bill@bohemia.metronet.org (Bill Dixon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Joining of Rappel Ropes
Keywords: knots
Date: 23 Aug 92 01:47:08 GMT
Organization: Bohemia BBS System

seafed@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (paul.w.campbell..jr) writes:
>Some time ago, there was a lively discussion concerning 
>the appropriate knot to use for joining Rappel ropes.
>I recall there was Euopean(Continental) support for the use of
>doubled overhand knots(They may also be called "thumb knot".).
>Many Americans use the Double Fisherman(also called grapevine).
>Is there UIAA or UIMGA support for any method?

I've always used a re-traced figure-8 w/ backup overhands on the tails
since it workes so great for tying in. It's also easier to untie than the 
two knots you mention, tho' it has a bit larger profile (read: more likely
to hang up).
			-Bill
:
From: bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:34:27 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

In article <LIZB.92Aug19111201@klosters.ai.mit.edu> lizb@altdorf.ai.mit.edu writes:
>(Quang-Tuan Luong) writes:
>
>   |> new climbers should be taught all the traditional techniques that were 
>   |> developed before modern technology made our lives so much easier. 
>
>   I agree entirely.
>
>Yes.  And speaking of which, the munter hitch - which I would always
>choose over a hip belay - has been significantly absent from this
>thread of discussion.  Any comments about the relative merits of these
>two techniques?
>
>Liz Bradley 
>MIT AI Lab


IMHO, I think hip belays should go the way of Goldline ropes. Sure, they
were the safest thing going, but belay devices are in general much more
reliable. Quang-Tuan Luong is right: people should know how to hip belay,
just in case they have to, and I agree with Liz Bradley: a Munter hitch
is preferable to a hip belay. But, from some recent postings, I got the impression
that some people were still using hip belays as a matter of routine. I
think this is foolish.

Bob Harrington
From: kg@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Ken Gurley)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:46:03 GMT
Subject: Re: area info. sought;  THE PIE SHOP, NV
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

A description of the Pie Shop can be found in the book :
   climbers guide to Tahoe Rock, author Mike Carville.
This is an excellent source of information about the climbing locations
in the Lake Tahoe area.
Located about a mile west of the airport. Turn onto Sawmill Rd. off
Hwy 50. Park across from the first two houses. Take trail to the rock.
Good weather - long climbing season. Rock quality pretty good. Routes
.5 - .12, face, crack, and conbinations.
From: kg@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Ken Gurley)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Hiking
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:02:30 GMT
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA

Try rec.backcountry
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Tahoe climbing
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:15:25 GMT

  I plan to climb around South Lake Tahoe this weekend, and would
like to know what climbs people recommend in the 5.9-5.11 range.
I have the area guide, but am curious as to what net-landers
think the classics are.
		      THANKS   -bruceg-
************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |  Pepsi ad campaign in Thailand;
saw it with your own eyes?"      | Come alive with the Pepsi Generation
   Asked the woman               |    In Thai translates to:
"That depends"                   | Pepsi will raise your ancestors
    Replied I                    |	from the dead.
***********************************************************************
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2982 rec.backcountry:6083
From: teshima@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (A. Lani Teshima)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Flashbulbs (was: Public Perceptions)
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:30:54 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii

In article <1992Aug11.125914.25284@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> nelsonm@erc1.ecn.purdue.edu (Mark J Nelson) writes:
>
Regarding single-use cameras:
>
>There are three (I think) models:  a normal "damn I forgot the camera
>but still want to take pictures of the kids" version, a panoramic
>version that shoots 3x10's instead of 3x5's, and one that is encased
>in plastic and is weather and waterproof to a certain (shallow) depth.
>
Since then they now make single-use "tele-foto" cameras that look very
boxy, almost squarish compared to the rectangular models. You can also
buy a transparent plastic housing for the normal version that allows
you to take them to scuba diving depth--you certainly wouldn't have to
worry about flooding that one! :)

The single-use cameras are EXTREMELY popular here in Hawaii,
especially the splash proof and panoramic ones. Fuji makes them with
tropical palm trees and beaches printed right on the camera, so some
tourists buy them just for the novelty.

Remember that the single-use cameras tend to go overboard on the
"excessive packaging," though, what with the outside box and everything.

>The only one I've used is the panoramic, and I was very pleased with
>the results.  You don't control the exposure or focus, but you're 
>usually taking a picture of something pretty far away anyway.

If you would like to take panoramic photos on your hike, but feel
uneasy about using single-use cameras, I would suggest the RE-USABLE
panoramic cameras. They are made by Ansco (who?), and the Nature
Company retail stores sell them for $19.95 (if you can find the same
camera marketed by Ansco, you can usually get them for about $12.95 or
so). The quality is about the same as the disposable ones, and cost
about thhe same at $12.95 as the single-use ones (without the film),
and it even leaves you with a clear conscience! I carry one with
me--they take great scenic snapshots or great single-line group shots.



--
A. Lani Teshima, UH School of Library & Info Studies   o | /_/_/ "Sea Hare"
A small mind is easily filled with faith.               o|<0_0>--------*
Blessed is a mind too small for doubt.                    \=^-| |____| | 
teshima@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu                                 \_}B   \_}B
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jed@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jed Mosenfelder)
Subject: Re: Fatal accident on Cathedral Peak (Tuolumne)
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:29:25 GMT

I have some details on this accident because I was climbing Cathedral at 
the same time. Unfortunately, from our vantage point about two pitches 
above the climbing party that had the accident we could not see exactly 
what happened. I heard a loud crashing noise while I was setting up the  
belay at the top of the last pitch. My partner called down to see if the 
party below us was OK - no answer. We assumed a large rock had fallen on 
the climbers (or pulled out while the leader was leading, etc). However, 
the loud sound I heard could conceivably have just been the climbers 
falling to the ground; a newspaper account I read said that investigators 
had determined that the likely cause of the accident was the belayer being 
insufficiently anchored into the wall, falling and pulling the leader down 
with her about three hundred feet to the base of the buttress. As no one 
actually witnessed the accident, I don't know if the exact cause could have
been determined. ANyway, by the time my partner and I had finished the 
climb and descended (we judged that it would be safer and quicker to descend
the fourth class route off the back than to make several rappels to the 
ground), other climbers had found the dead bodies at the base. A helicopter 
was flown in to evacuate the bodies soon thereafter. 
	Needless to say I am rather disturbed by this accident. Was it the 
result of inexperience or loose rock? The latter possibility is especially 
frightening because this route is a very popular route (there were at least 
five or six parties on it that day). While the climbing is great (mostly 
pleasant 5.6), the experience sure was ruined for me......

-Jed Mosenfelder
From: luong@cuba.inria.fr (Quang-Tuan Luong)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:17:30 GMT
Reply-To: luong@sophia.inria.fr
Organization: Inria Sofia Antipolis

In article <1992Aug18.163523.8100@serval.net.wsu.edu>, kjones@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu (Kent Jones - EECS) writes:
|> So my question is: Should I have used only the two points I was pretty sure
|> to be secure, or should I have spent as long as necessary to find a third 
|> anchor point? As I have only 2-3 years experience, it still takes me quite
|> a while to set up an anchor point that I am confident in.  This can be
|> frustrating to the person who is following me. How should I handle the 
|> temptation of using only two anchor points when it seems that there is 
|> no place where I can put a third? 

  If you are *really* sure of its quality, an anchor point is certainly
enough, after all. A fortiori, if you have two good points, I see absolutely 
no reason for placing a third point, as a single point would be enough. It
is a waste of time, and, as illustrated by your story, doesn't add anything
to your safety, but produces the opposite effect. As a general rule, I try
to use two points, I sometimes use one, almost never three, even in ice and
mixed climbing. If you really want to secure the belay, put a piece a few 
meters above it.

Tuan.
From: byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:32:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Inquiry for facts on Horstooth Accident
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

> 
> I heard very indirectly (so may likely contain mis-information) that a
> very good climber was killed this summer at Horsetooth outside of Ft.
> Collins.  He was on a route that was bolted with "bolts in teflon" and
> that after a fall, 7 bolts popped and he received a fatal head injury
> (survived for a couple of hours, but died during rescue).
> 
> "bolts in teflon" is an unknown to me, is this wrong or is there some
> new bolt stuff being put up??
> 
> ...and then again maybe the true story is completely different.

Unless there's some other accident recently that I haven't heard of, this
story has gotten totaly "embellished" on its way to the coast.

First of all, there's no bolting (to speak of) at Horsetooth.  Most of the
cliffs are less than 40' high, and are either toproped or just bouldered.
A 7 bolt route would be incredible.

The only death this year was some college student who was "a good athlete".
He was climbing Arthurs Rock (a disgusting, rotting piece of granite that's 
not worth climbing) on the west side of Horsetooth Reservoir.  He fell (or 
more likely a hold broke), his piece pulled (or the rock broke) and hit his 
head and died a short time later.

A "very good climber" wouldn't have gone near the thing.  I have no idea
what "bolts in teflon" are! :-)

IMHO,

John
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Stupid quotes
Keywords: stupid
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:13:51 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Aug12.172539.12550@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:

>	HELP.  I've risen and I can't get down.
>
>			- Jesus trying to boogie post-resurrection

Also said by some unfortunates who accidently dropped their rope
one day from the Redgarden Wall in Eldorado.  They tried composing
a chain from all the gear on their rack, which wasn't much help.  A
friend rescued them.

Also said by countless tourists who ignore the "no rock climging without
equipment" signs in Garden of the Gods.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: The Snail (was: Please explain the rating system)
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:07:18 GMT
Reply-To: billw@sjc.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Followup-To: 


In article <1992Aug13.032835.16638@src.dec.com>, murray@src.dec.com (Hal Murray) writes:
|> Sometimes it means you can't get in any pro, either because the rock is too junky
|> to hold any, or because there aren't any cracks.  I think it was the Snail in
|> Pinnacles that went from 4th class to 5.8 when somebody added a bolt.
I have done this climb!  It was rated 5.7 at the time with a single bolt less
than halfway up.  I was really shitting climbing up the last moves on crumbly
rock and looking at a 70 foot ground fall!!  Not recommended due to the danger!

Bill
-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
From: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis Chamberlin)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: What happened to REI?
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:43:09 GMT
Reply-To: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Aug17.173719.28331@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel) writes:
>
>Well, there are people out there who (perish the thought) who
>might venture outdoors in a non-stylish mode.
>  I count myself as one of them..
>Ted....

 Two or three years ago, REI published a catalog that included a picture of
 three or four people ostensibly backpacking, except they were dressed for
 a church picnic. Somehow they had arrived on this ridge without breaking 
 a sweat.

The ridiculous part was that all the waist belts were unfastened, buckles
hanging to their knees, so the cute duds could be viewed unimpeded.

Made me wonder what kind of person they think their customer is.
From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:47:27 GMT
Organization: Disorganized Organization

In article <5045@gold.gvg.tek.com>, jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche) writes:
> It would be a good thing if the new generation of climbers was taught
> the body belay, if for no other reason than the chance of a dropped
> belay appliance.  

new climbers should be taught all the traditional techniques that were 
developed before modern technology made our lives so much easier.  its 
easy enough to go down to the store and buy some matches when you run out,
but its another thing to rappel when your descender has just fallen and hit
your partner on the head, knocking him out.  fancy devices are no substitute
for an understanding of friction.

-- 
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
--