HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: VOTE NOW!
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:58:42 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <Bt4s3n.3rq@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, 
 burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
> In article <14999@umd5.umd.edu> 
 mvw@anywhere.umd.edu (Martin V. Walser) writes:
>>In article <batemanc.713805671@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> 
 batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) writes:

>>>HAVE YOU BEEN ANNOYED BY LOREN YET?
 
>>   As the keeper of the FAQ, and general rgf.* heirachy answer person, Loren
>>is entitled to try to steer conversations... [snip]

> Agreed.  A little etiquette (and judicious silence) goes a long way on
> the net.  When flaming folk, do it right, do it by e-mail.  The best
> thing about this method is that you can really ream out somebody you 
> don't like, while people on the net will still think you're a nice
> guy (of course I don't do this  :)  ).  

I guess Burdick would say the second best thing about this method would
be it saves you the embarassment of having the public read your really
lousy flames (like the one he sent me this morning).

But further, I think it's wrong to assume that anyone who advises the net
to exercise what they think is etiquette is right, and anyone who ignores 
their admonishement (like Loren's) is wrong. That seems to be implicit --
``Loren (or whoever) is free to steer conversations in the right direction, 
and the rest of you animals are free to post noise all over the place.'' 
I don't think it's a safe assumption. Just look at the results of your 
garden-variety net.policeman's post: some holier-than-thou person gets 
on and posts their brand of good advice (like, ``Don't flame,'' or ``that 
post doesn't belong here,''  etc.). Does it have any effect? Almost never. 
More often than not, someone will post just the opposite (like a public 
flame) for the express purpose of demonstrating that the would-be advisor 
has no authority, and that the would-be advisor can go straight to hell.

Telling someone what to do (or giving ``hostile'' advice) when you have no 
authority to do so (or when the recipient is not compelled to take your
advice) puts you in the weakest position imaginable. They can easily defy
or undermine what you want them to do, and you come off looking like a 
clown. The only etiquette on the net that can be enforced are the 
restrictions on obscene, negligent or illegal behavior that almost no one 
practices (moderated areas are different, of course). 

I think the practice of ``Netiquette'' (being polite, not flaming, 
respecting the feelings and opinions of others) is okay, but it's too 
often boring and unproductive, especially on discussion groups. Stirring
someone up, stepping on toes, slaying sacred cows, etc., is sometimes
the best way to prompt coherrant and meaningful conversation. Restrictions,
even self-imposed ones, can be stifling.

Okay,
+  Chadd  L.  VanZanten   SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU  +
+  ``You know,  I thought this was a good   +
+  idea but this is one weird mama-jama.''  +
+                    -- TV's Frank, MST3K   +
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:1786 rec.games.frp.misc:3938
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:47:13 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Don't forget that someone who is smart will train better, take advantage of
the terrain and prevailing winds, and thus run faster.

Also, you can run faster downhill (really fast straight down) and much slower
uphill (not at all straight up) so we need to account for the slope.  And the
wind speed of course.

So, we have all four attributes contributing to move and some other stuff.

Move = Sqrt(ST^e * HT/DX + IQ^3) / pi * (g * Tan(slope)) * Cos(windspeed)

That looks about right.  :-)

I think that (HT+DX)/4 is an ok approximation.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: YAPP - Yet Another Points Post
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:28:51 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle


  There's been quite a bit of discussion recently in this group about what the
points in GURPS 'mean'. I'd just like to throw in my two bytes worth. The
arguements seem to boil down to the following categories:

  1. How useful is the feature to your character?

  2. How difficult is the feature to obtain?

  3. How does the feature effect the game balance?

By feature, of course, I mean an attribute, advantage, disadvantage, or skill.

  Now I can only guess what the points mean to the original developers, but it
seems somewhat clear to me that the GURPS points are determined by a mixture of
all three. The skills are clearly determined by how difficult they are to learn.
On the other hand, the advantages and disadvantages appear to be based on their
utility to the character. (However, there are some ad/disads that appear to be
rated by how they balance the game.) The attributes appear to be a mixture of
all three.

  We could all argue until we are blue in the face about what the points really
mean and how they should be set. However, if my hypothesis is correct, then it
is really just an editorial decision about how to set the points. IMPO, the only
'point' issue really worth discussing is which particular point schemes clearly
unbalance the game by giving a player a skewed advantage for a particular use
of points. (Ex: Eidetic Memory, Racial Attribute Modifiers, and other linear
Attribute modifiers.) These are easy enough to tweak and fix.
-- 
 Bob Hall,                 | "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
 Workstation Peripheral    | Then give up. No use being a damn fool about it."
 Boeing Computer Services  |                                     -Groucho Marx
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Apology to net
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:37:00 GMT

Sorry folks, about the recent flame war between Chris L. VanZenten
and myself.  Chris has now taken to bouncing my email messages to
him and reproducing PRIVATE email onto the net.  I realize both of us
look like assholes and are eating up bandwidth, so this is my last
post on the subject.  Again, I am REALLY sorry I started this whole 
thing.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jjohnson@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Jeffrey H. Johnson)
Subject: Re: YAPP - Yet Another Points Post
Organization: NCR CCSD Columbia SC
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 15:42:21 GMT

In article <3368@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall) writes:

>  There's been quite a bit of discussion recently in this group about what the
>points in GURPS 'mean'. I'd just like to throw in my two bytes worth. The
>arguements seem to boil down to the following categories:
>
>  1. How useful is the feature to your character?
>
>  2. How difficult is the feature to obtain?
>
>  3. How does the feature effect the game balance?
>
>By feature, of course, I mean an attribute, advantage, disadvantage, or skill.
>  Now I can only guess what the points mean to the original developers, but it
>seems somewhat clear to me that the GURPS points are determined by a mixture of
>all three.

Agreed.  The overwhelming concern in GURPS, however, is #1 - How usefule is the
feature to your character? (which I feel is the same thing as #3 - preventing
game imbalance.  Yes, the points that are put into skills represent time to
learn, but the skills are still kept in balance by their granularity.  For
example, Mathematics (as useful as it may be in Real Life) is not very
important to your average adventurer (in any setting).  Therefore, we have
just the one skill - Mathematics.  On the other hand, Survival can be very
important to most adventurers.  Therefore, we have a handful (9?) separate
survival skills.  If you were running a campaign which centered upon the 
upcoming Math Olympics (or whatever), you should break Mathematics down into
Integral Calculus, Abstract Algebra, etc. to avoid having all the PCs split
their points uniformly between IQ and Mathematics.

>[remainder deleted]
>-- 
> Bob Hall,                 | "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
> Workstation Peripheral    | Then give up. No use being a damn fool about it."
> Boeing Computer Services  |                                     -Groucho Marx

Jeff
--
Jeffrey H. Johnson
jjohnson@ccscola.columbiasc.ncr.com

		"More human than human is our motto."
			-- Dr. Eldon Tyrell
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: white@tree.egr.uh.edu (Mitchell White)
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Reply-To: white@tree.egr.uh.edu
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:31:56 GMT

In article <12AUG199208165058@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov>  
spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
> In article <1992Aug11.191927.12824@menudo.uh.edu>,
>  white@tree.egr.uh.edu writes...
> >     First of all, that's "TEXAN", not southerner.
> Sorry.  Didn't notice that you were a foreigner.  Howdy!  (speak to 'em in 
> their own language, and they'll appreciate it)
> >Who said anything about limp noodles and meat sauce? 
> >That's not chili anywhere.  
> It is in Cincinnati.  I don't miss a chance to put that place down! ;+)
> >we DO have "hot", "spicy" buffalo wings down here.
> No you don't.  What you have is a cautious approximation of WINGS.  The 
> Basic Set, if it were.  Here, we eat Advanced WINGS only.
>                                                   James S. Zakany
     Well ah dew declayuh! A Jawjuhn! Much becomes clear to me now. Your idea  
of "hot & spicy" is probably chicken dipped in peach sauce. On the other  
hand, I'll stay out of the Cleveland - Pittsburg - Cinncinnaattttiiii debate,  
since, as none of them are in TEXAS, they're all inherently inferior, anyway.  
What exactly do you do at NASA, besides write about the CHILI system, anyway?
     MLW
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Do U customize games 4 players?
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:59:16 MDT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: Utah State University

In article <56784@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, 
 jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.134751.58135@cc.usu.edu> 
 sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:

>>The question is, when I write up scenarios, do I write different 
>>segments in which each character can exhibit his/her talents? Or
>>do I just write up plausible scenarios and wait for opportunities 
>>(for the characters to use their specialties) to present 
>>themselves?

[About a dozen carriage returns deleted]

> Your best bet is not to write "scenarios" so much as situations.
> It is not plot-driven.  I do not have any predetermined outcome that I want
> to foist onto my players.  For that matter, I don't even have a "storyline"
> _a-priori_.  (I DO have continuity of campaign, but that's another matter
> entirely.)
> 
> It is not mood-driven.  I do not have any predetermined emotive state that
> I want my players to feel/vicariously experience.

I... think I just forgot the question. 

Okay,
+  Chadd  L.  VanZanten   SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU  +
+  ``You know,  I thought this was a good   +
+  idea but this is one weird mama-jama.''  +
+                    -- TV's Frank, MST3K   +
From: markk@sagredo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Paranoia (GM being Unfair)
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:17:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SunSoft South
NNTP-Posting-Host: sagredo.west.sun.com

I'd explain my concerns to the GM and then look for another group to play with.
Life is too short to waste in situations that you already know aren't going to 
work out.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: marrou@cs.ucf.edu (Lance R. Marrou)
Subject: Re: marvel
Organization: University of Central Florida
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:22:22 GMT

af2e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Alex Feely) writes:

>Hello,
>I just joined this bboard, but I'd like to say somthing. Has anyone
>heard of MARVEL SUPER HEROES! I'm not looking for a game, right now I
>play AD&D2, But this is a good game published by tsr, It's even been in
>DRAGON magazine. It's high time people recognize it for what it is. It's
>far SUPERior to any other comic role-playing system. 
     ^^^^^^^^
>                                                                        
>         Sincerely,
>                                                                        
>     Alex Feely

Not!!!  Champions is _much_ better!!

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Lance R. Marrou
   Work   - Marrou@IST.UCF.edu
   School - Marrou@Eola.cs.UCF.edu
From: gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:16:52 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA
Originator: gharris@jade.tufts.edu

In article <0095F3E3.DB244200@abby.chem.ucla.edu> doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu writes:
>
>This probably violates some newsgroup charter or other, but I've got a
>suggestion:  let's look at some real examples from the world of sports.  Who
>are the fastest of football players?  They are the wide receivers and defensive
>backs:  not as big and strong as most other positions, but more agile.
>How about in the NBA?  Again, the less strong and more agile players are
>faster.
>
>What does this tell us?  There is more evidence for DX belonging in the formula
>than ST.

	NO, it tells us that large people are less likely to be fast.  However,
there is no measure in GURPS fro the size of a person, so there is no way to 
model this correlation in that game.

	In fact, since ST increases to the 2/3 power of mass, this indicates 
that people with a higher ST/mass ratio will be faster, since as far from the
norm as most football/basketball players are, you can bet they are at near 
maximum ST for their body type.

	Now, if you created a SZ characteristic for GURPS, you could have it
negatively influence running speed.

>-Doug Gibson
> doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does."              -Groucho Marx 

gharris@jade.tufts.edu          George Harris, Tufts Univ. Dept. of Mathematics
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: phatch@storm.slc.mentorg.com
Subject: Re: Do U customize games 4 players?
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp.,  Murray, Utah
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:42:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.134751.58135@cc.usu.edu>, sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
> In article <-b4m7nm@lynx.unm.edu>, 
>  tkogoma@triton.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes:
> In article <1992Aug11.214904.58074@cc.usu.edu> 
>  sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>
			STUFF, NOW GONE
> 
> Now, the campaign is set in TL6, where most of the characters are hired
> mercenaries. To avoid being carbon copies of each other, the players have
> tried to specialize in different skills, and some of the characters are 
> super specialized. The question is, when I write up scenarios, do I write
> different segments in which each character can exhibit his/her talents? Or
> do I just write up plausible scenarios and wait for opportunities (for the
> characters to use their specialties) to present themselves?
> 
> Here are the arguments I've thought of for both sides. If I write ``custom''
> scenarios, where each character has his moment in the limelight, each 
> player will get to satifactoraly play out the character on a regular basis.
> On the other hand, my players are pretty sharp, and they would know that 
> I was customizing the scenarios. I dunno how they would react to this. They
> like realistic scenarios, and at the end of each game we sometimes note the
> plot weaknesses in the scenario. Customizing the adventures could be seen
> as a definite plot-hole (it's really hard to realistically have something
> to blow up in every scenario for the demolitions specialist).
> 
			MORE STUFF GONE
>  
> Okay,
> +  Chadd  L.  VanZanten   SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU  +

I have had a similar debate.  My conclusion was that the best scenes were created
when I followed what should be there according to the plot.  If the party is 
limited in some way, say they don't have a computer specialist, then I don't make
the scenario hinge on getting stuff out of the computer, though some info may
be easily assessible there as well.

As is often the case, the best generalized results come from a combination of 
theories.  So I rate writing a true to genre plot as being the first obligation.
Then modify the plot to be playable in your group. Since your group would "smell"
the spotlight, don't modify things that way.  Modify to make sure the lights don't
go off because the party has a hole that no player was interested in filling.  That
is unfair to the players.

phil				
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:40:58 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <1992Aug13.161039.5486@samba.oit.unc.edu> Elizabeth.Mccoy@bbs.oit.unc.edu writes:

> 
> [Commentary as to how running depends more on ST than DX, so DX should
> be replaced by ST on the "(DX + HT)/4 = Move" bit....]
> 
> Hmmm... That could be amusing.. Lemme see, here's my cat-centaurs,
> lower-body ST of 20 (upper body ST of 10 -- so far, not terribly
> unbalancing in a TL 11-13 game), HT 13, Increased Speed 1, enhanced move
> 1.... (They get a sprint of twice-move for about 20 seconds.)
> 
> And don't forget buying up Running skill. The first biological creatures
> to hit warp speed on a planet! :-)

Granted, but when I was discussing STR, I admitted that creature STR
was, for purposes of this exercise, to be realitive to mass.  This holds
true for people in the human-mass range.  If we were to expand the formula
to, say, cat-centaurs, the STR would have to be divided by the mass
multiple of the creature.  (say they are twice as heavy, 20/2 = 10)  I
didn't expound upon this for that reason, it's awfully complex and I'm
primairly interested in simulating human running correctly before going
on to other things.

Another poster comments that dodge will now have to be changed to DEX/2.
I agree.

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan)
Subject: Re: GURPS Total Rewrite
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:21:15 GMT

In article <14531@borg.cs.unc.edu> bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
|And what is that measure of utility?  Usefulness in the campaign.  Strength
|is generally much more useful to someone in a medieval-style campaign than
|it is to a person in a high-tech scenario.  Thus for the equality idea to
|be at all meaningful, adjustments in point costs need to be made.
|

	I disagree.  I've played in (and ran) medieval fantasy campaigns
wherein it wouldn't have been terribly useful to have been the strongest man
in the world, and modern games where being strong could save your life.

	How useful anything is has to do mostly with what the players are
doing, and they have at least as much say in that as the GM.

|>	If ST were COMPLETELY useless, then no one would take it no matter how
|>cheap it was.
|
|Only if you're playing with mini-maxers.

	Sorry, I keep forgeting that the true measure of roleplaying acumen is
how useless your character is.

|But it isn't desirability to them that's important;  it's desirability in
|general in the game world that is.  Should they pay for it?  Sure,  but
|based on that measure of utility, *not* some highly inaccurate universal
|measure.

	Again, I disagree.  If they've got it, they'll find a way to get some
use out of it.  If they're not willing to pay, they don't want it bad
enough.


dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Put Up or Shut Up (Dice[less])
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:09:10 GMT
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
In-reply-to: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu's message of 11 Aug 92 00:28:51 GMT
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]

>>>>> "RP" == Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat
>>>>> <ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu> writes:

RP> And how many of you have ever played RPGs without dice?

Should be "have never played".
                ^^^^^

I hate it when I'm ambiguous. Thpppt.

--Rat (with apologies)

||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
                                                   __        ___ 
Richard Pieri, Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat/   | /| / /   | The Worlds
Internet: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu   /__  |/ |/ / /| | Welfare Works
    UUCP: ...!northeastern.edu!meceng!ratinox  /   | /| / / / | | Association:
  BITNET: UA_RLP@NUHUB{.BITNET}               /__  |/ |/ / /  | | I will solve
  USNail: 14 Westdale RD  Holbrook, MA 02343 /   | /| / / /___| | any problem
 ICBMnet: 42 deg 1 min N, 71 deg 0 min W    /    |/ |/ /_//_____| for you.
From: mvw@anywhere.umd.edu (Martin V. Walser)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
Summary: Beer <<==>> Life
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:26:50 GMT
Organization: Maryversity of Uniland

In article <4741@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> 
seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

>>Beverage of the peasants!  Beer, when done proper, is a cacophony mixture 
>
>	"Beer, when done proper" is one of those self-contradictory
>statements like "Military Intelligence", "Congressional Ethics" and so on.

    I was going to stay out of this mindless food system war, but I MUST take 
exception to that last statement.  You've OBVIOUSLY never partaken of a 
quality homebrew which in its infinite glory is far beyond the lack of taste
experience given by "American Beers" (which is the real oxymoron).  A *TRUE*
beer drinker has Charlie Papazian's _Joy Of Homebrewing_ on his shelf, a
batch in the fermenter and bottles of homebrew in the fridge.  The system
outlined in Papazian's rules are far more playable and yet more realistic
than any other food system around... A taste experience no other food system,
solid or liquid can stand up to.  The best thing about THIS system, it can 
accompany OTHER systems in a suppplementary manner as well as stand on its 
own.

Mart  (mvw@anywhere.umd.edu)


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: brandon@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Garland Operator 7-G)
Subject: Chicago and VAMPIRE (was: Re: additional vampire stuff)
Summary:  That's the problem with Chicago....all the damn vampires.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Anime Doujou
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 01:41:00 GMT

In article <la>, busc@midway.uchicago.edu writes...
>im having troubles with this system so i sorta goofed. 
>the idea wasn't just to blabber nonsense and run but to inquire ofr any like 
>minded souls who might be interested in forming a vampire campaign either 
>here in chicago or pbm/pbem. 

This guy lives in Chicago and wants to play Vampire..........it figures.

This is the reason why I didn't get into the Vampire system. Very good idea
destroyed, IMO, by having it focus too much on Chicago at the start.

Domo. Ja na.

Brandon Freels (Garland Operator 7-G)
brandon@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu  -or-  brandon@uokucsvx.bitnet
"I'm witty naturally, I don't need quotes."
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy