From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: I'm back and badder than before
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:37:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.021712.48@newton.hartwick.edu> buccim@newton.hartwick.edu writes:
>I have seen several postings which make reference to my mistakingly misquoting
>George Orwell's work Animal Farm.  I acknowledged this mistake, and apologized.
>Apparently, people such as Professor Who? have nothing to do but beat a dead 
>horse.  If you read my subsequent posting you would have realized this.

You don't seem to have a conception of the time-lag in posts.  If you check
Professor Who's post, you'll see that it was posted *before* your apology.
It's kind of unfair to expect people to anticipate that which you haven't
done.

>By the way Ted, changing Greek Organizations is not as simple as passing a one 
>line amendment to the Civil Rights Act.  Perhaps you do not realize the
>complexities involved.  You've heard of Special Interest Groups?  I'm sure
>you know what an appeal is.  I'm sure you know that any such amendment would
>not be allowed to be enforced while under appeal to a Federal District Court,
>or heaven forbid the rather Conservatively stacked Supreme Court.  

Of course, Roberts v United States Jaycees would control such a case.  Courts
have had no problems enforcing Title VII in other situations that arguably
infringe upon freedom of association.

>Let's not
>forget President-Elect Clinton (yecchhhhh) is Greek, and while he is part of
>a coed fraternity - my fraternity - he understands the value of single sex
>Greek Letter Organizations.  

Oh, please.  Clinton's a member of APhiOmega, a co-ed service frat, and
a member of Phi Alpha Delta, a co-ed law fraternity (which I happen to 
be a member of).

Do you really think Clinton would veto the "1993 Civil Rights Act," because
it removed a one-sentence exemption for organizations practicing sexual
discrimination?  Do you Hillary would let him?  :)

>Your simple one sentence amendment could turn into
>legal battles encomposing an entire decade and costing millions of dollars.

The fact that such an exemption was needed in the first place is evidence
that Title VII was considered applicable to fraternities fifteen years before
Roberts v United States Jaycees said that laws against sex discrimination
did not infringe upon freedom of association.  When fraternities were
racially desegregated, only one lawsuit ever made its way into federal
court (Sigma Chi v University of Colorado), and needless to say, the
fraternity lost.  Frats didn't spend millions of dollars on that -- they
just complied, rather than be faced with the negative publicity.

The 1991 Supreme Court, sans Thomas, refused to review the New Jersey
Supreme Court's decision in Frank v Ivy Club to desegregate the Princeton
all-male eating clubs.   

Fraternities don't have a legal leg to stand on if the exemption is
removed.    

>Rest assured, the Fraternities in this country would fight with every resource
>available, perhaps we would use some of our networking influence - ya think?

Ironically, it's that same networking influence that will ensure that
fraternities lose a desegregation case (and, IMHO, should lose one now,
even with the Congressional exemption).

>Worst case scenario Ted, we go underground like we did at our inception.  I
>haven't heard you address this issue yet, I've made reference to it several
>times.  Funny, like usual no response.

If colleges cared, they could take Colby's approach, and expel underground
fraternity members.  This is also legal.  Phelps v Colby College.

>No Ted, we are not going away.  We will live on for no other reason than to
>serve as a continual reminder of your failure to eradicate us. 

You have an overinflated sense of my importance.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english