From: tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross)
Subject: Re: B-CPU: (FAQ) A Layman's Guide (Long - 653 lines)
Keywords: b-cpu,IHR,Carto,Smith,Gannon
Reply-To: tb13@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:22:54 GMT

In article <5609@ucru2.ucr.edu> mmason@ucrengr.ucr.edu (martin mason) writes:
>
>I am distressed by some of the statements that this article makes in regards
>to Bradley Smith.  The information presented makes no effort to refute any
>
>of Bradley Smith's arguements.  It instead seems that the path taken in this 
>article is one of mere generalized assertions against Smiths beliefs and
>Character.  Sounds like a hack job to me.  

Smiths 'beliefs' are false, which is why his character is an issue.
We want to know why would anybody say things so ridiculous.  

>Any information refuting the 
>arguements of Smith would be appreciated, as I have no vested interest in 
>any particular interpretation of history.  

Go to the university library, and look under 'Holocaust' or 'WWII', and
ask the reference librarian for help.  You will find hundreds of books
with thousands of pieces of information.  And they refute Smith's claims.
And if you were to read this group, people, on regular basis, post
sources, from various texts directly refuted the Holocaust deniers.

Respectable people have compared Smith's claims to those that say 
the Earth is flat. 
(A US Circuit Court Judge, A Harvard Professor, etc)
 No one in academia believes anything close to 
what Smith says.  None of his views have been accepted to any refereed
journals.  

Which 'arguments' of Smith are you referring to?  I've read his stuff.
There are no arguments, just 'assertions', which the following groups
have said are false:
US Circuit Court
American Historical Society
Duke University History Department
Historicans at 5 other universities asked
German Goverment
Austrian Government
Polish Goverment
French Goverment
Soviet Government
etc.  

>Smith states on page 8 of 
>"COnfessions of a Holocaust Revisionist" that "This isn't as clear-cut as
>people think it is.  I never say that the Holocaust never happened.  A thousand 
>year old Jewish culture in Eastern Europe was destroyed in three or four
>years."

In Smith's newspaper article he writes:

"The truth appears to be, with regard to the alleged extermination of
the European Jews, that there was no order, no plan, no budtet, no weapon."

And he explicitly denies that
"the German state had a policy to exterminate the Jewish people (or anyone
else) by putting them to death in gas chambers or by killing them through
abuse or neglect."  and also says that "no execution gas chambers existed
in any camp under German control."

This is Holocaust denial.  Nothing more, nothings less.
Look up Holocaust in the dictionary or Encyclopedia.  The Holocaust
was the systematic attempt to exterminate Jews and others by the
Nazis during WWII. Smith is denying that this occurred.   

(By the way, if he were to say this in Germany or Austria, he would
be in violation of the laws that prohibit neo-Nazi activity).  

In regards to his claim.
What kind of information do you want?
1)  Order:  those are in national archives and people have and will repost them
2)  Plan:   ditto
3)  Budget: ditto
4)  Weapon:  gas chambers, shootings, etc.

This is all extremely well documented, based on a variety of sources,
kept at various archives, and found in books.  Ken McVay and others
post the evidence on a regular basis.  If you e-mail Ken, he will 
send you the archive of the stuff on the Holocuast.

Go to your video store and rent "Shoah", or find books by Hilberg,
Davidowitz and Bauer in your library.  If you want, I can get you
hundreds of titles.

If you want specific information (which kind of gas chambers were used
at which camp, who was in charge, who the victims were, where they
came from, who gave the orders, when the Nazis met and decided to
exterminate the Jews, etc)  people have that and can post the 
sources.    

Smith's arguments are ridiculous.  "The Duke University History Department
wishes to state that the assertions made in this advertisement do not
constitute 'revisionism' as scholars understand the term.  ..Nothing in
this ad except the layout and language suggest that these false assertions
deserve the name of scholarship."

If you can find an argument by Smith, please post it, and it will be
refuted quite quickly.  Smith is not a historian, and has no historical
credentials.  He can't prove any of the things he says: neither in court,
or in an academic journal.   

>Finally, I am writing this because I feel that your attacks are just as 
>unjust as those which you would accuse others of.  I admire Bradley Smith
>for his anti war sentiments as published in the Visalia Times Delta 
>during the Persian Gulf Massacre.

The stuff Smith says about the Holocaust is false.   If you want to 
get in specifics, I and others are willing to demonstrate that. 

Smith is German.  His motivation is to clear the name of the German 
people.  That's why he write this stuff. He wants to demonstrate
that Germans didn't exterminate anyone.  He is essentially a 'defense
attourney' for the war criminals, saying that no crime was committed.
There are other Holocaust deniers 
whose motivations are anti-Semitic (i.e., they wish to harm Jews and say
negative things about them), and Smith works with them.  Smith is
aiding and abetting anti-Semites who are KKK members, Nazis, and
fascists.  I do not admire him for that; he should be ashamed.  
Smith's motivation is to 'defend' the name of the German people.,
But if he went to Germany or Austria, he would see that the goverments,
museums, historians, or educators do not deny that the Nazis exterminated
Jews and others.  He would find out that the people in those counties
who deny this are neo-Nazis, and it is illegal.  I don't understand
why Smith doesn't realize the irony of trying to defend the name of
the German people by allying himself with anti-Semites and neo-Nazis
and racists in this country.  Can't he see that this (and the acceptance
of Holocaust denial in the German community) makes Germans look WORSE.
Isn't one of the lessons of WWII that German nationalism should
completely disassociate itself from racism and anti-Semitism, and that
people should not blame the Jews for the problems of the German people? 

>It is my belief that the free exchange of information is important above all
>
>
>else.
>Hopefully, you will credit your readers with enough intelligence to
>understand actual refutations rather then mere hatchet jobs.

Free exchange of information has occured.  Please go ask the historians
in your university and they will explain to you how historians arrive
at their conclusions, or go to your library.  You will see that there is
no shortage of information on this or any other topic.   

But free exchange of information does not mean that we should treat
the stories in the supermarket tabloids as equal to those in scientific
journals with regard to science.    

And some readers have already refuted these over and over again.  
Anyone who knows any history will know that Smith's claims are false,
just like anyone who knows any geology will know that the earth is round.

If you had been reading this group earlier, you would have seen that
the Holocaust deniers are incapable of discussing things intelligently.
They refused to answer questions, or to address the 100's of pages
of evidence posted in this group on a regular basis.  

Please tell us which of Smith's claims you believe, and I will present
evidence to the contrary, or find it for you.  Be specific in your
questions, and you will get more detail in answers than you ever
wanted to know.  

But if you think that Smith has any validity or credibility among
academic historians anywhere, you are simply mistaken.  

  From the Chronicle of Higher Education, Jan 8, 1992, p 86
  Historical Association Issues Statement Deploring Efforts to Deny
  Holocaust.  by Ellen Coughlin

	The governing council of the American Historical Association
  meeting at the group's annual conference here last week, unanimously
  approved a statement condeming recent claims that the Nazi extermination
  of Jews in WWII is a myth.
	"The AHA coucils strongly deplores the recent reported attempts
  to deny the Holocaust," the statemnt said.  "No serious historian 
  questions that the Holocaust took place."  

>Peace,
>Martin          
>
Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.