HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: Clouds?! (was Re: the best)
Keywords: safety, legality, VFR, clouds
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 19:16:34 GMT

>>As far as the white puffy things, it's a LEGAL jump if you see the DZ when
>>you climb out.
>	This is wrong in two ways.  First, even if you can see six
>DZ's when you climb out, if you fly your canopy (or yourself!) less
>than 500' below, 1000' above, or 2000' beside a cloud, much less into
>one, then you're breaking the FARs -- the aviation law.  Second, I
>don't believe the law even says anything about needing to be able to
>see the DZ before climbout!  Anybody care to point out the missing FAR
>here?  (Remember, BSR's are only *recommendations* and aren't even
>law.)  The only thing we're really bound by are the FARs.

ok, I stand corrected, I guess I was thinking of BSR's. But I don't think
2000' is very much space, considering the speeds, so the arguement is
still there. Pilots should do everything they can to aviod the DZ's.
This is common sense! Why intentionally fly into a projectile area????

>
>>And I don't think it's too much to ask of pilots to
>>avoid a small verticle column of air that are few and far between.
>	It is -- the airspace belongs to *everybody*, the rules apply
>to *everybody*, no matter how special or skilled we think we are.

I couldn't agree with you more. But I'm not going to be stupid and
fly my canopy into a runway approach at 200'. Don't you think this
would be dangerous? I don't think any GA pilots would like to SHARE
this airspace....
>
>>I stand by my statement- aviod the lil' canopies on your sectional.
>	And I by mine -- we can't go around trying to grab exclusive
>use of all the airspace and airports where we want to jump.  We'll
>lose. (in more ways than one...)

And we'll get REALLY bad publicity when a plane nails a skydiver. Public
perception is bad enough already. That'd be the icing on the cake.
From: SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:31:24 GMT

Reply-to: Bill.Caefer@p0.f853.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Caefer)
Fido-To: romulus!umiacs.umd.edu!jerrys

 r> (BTW, Why do student Vectors have belly bands? Didn't the sport decide 
 r> those were needless and risky?)

No, not really.  They may or may not be needless on some rigs, but they are in no way risky now.  (Actually, they never were, if they were used properly.)

--- Maximus 2.01wb
--- eecp 1.45 LM2 

 * Origin: <X> Infinity Ltd.  HST/DS (1:102/853)
--  
SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13
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Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: How much "should" one pay for used gear?
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 15:33:30 GMT

well a few weeks ago, i hear Ralph was sellin sabres for $1000.
i'd keep that in mind, maybe even call him. 

but then i don't really know anyting about the market.
i want an AR-7 or a Lightning.

tim
From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Douglas R Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: New England drop zone & tandem question
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:54:16 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <745.2AA60ED4@ehsnet.fidonet.org>, SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE) writes:
>If you know you are going to get into skydiving and are not just 'trying it out' 
>then you should skip the tandems and go AFF.  It's an added expense.  Although 
>doing ONE might be worthwhile.

I *highly* recommend that you do a tandem before AFF.  Your first skydive will be
pretty wild--you're in a completely new environment.  AFF #1 seems to me to be a
little too overwhealming.  To much to experience, too much to do for a first jump.

-- 
Doug Puchalski						drp40@cd.amdahl.com
From: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:27:54 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1992Aug31.171336.7265@ichips.intel.com> mtimko@ichips.intel.com writes:
>In article <59984@mimsy.umd.edu>, jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:
>|> Perhaps a lime green ripcord or some other neon, contrasting color 
>|> would lessen this type of confusion (if they look:-).
>
>I think that the best way to eliminate the confusion is to first use
>an SOS but also to combine it with a hip mounted rip cord.  

I agree.  But the color differentiation is cheaper than buying new rigs
or modifying existing ones to an SOS - which means you might stand a chance
of getting a DZ owner to make the color change (which is better than 
nothing.)

BS
Jerry

-- 
Domain: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu		    Jerry Sobieski
  UUCP:	uunet!mimsy!jerrys		University of Maryland
 Phone:	(301)405-6735		Institute for Advanced Computer Studies
 					College Park, Md 20742
From: bleck@aztec.ai.mit.edu (Olaf Bleck)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Dumpster accident
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:21:50 GMT
Reply-To: bleck@ai.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

In article <1992Aug28.020235.2793@cascade.Stanford.EDU>, king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King) writes:
|> 
|> 	About the guy who flew into the dumpster--
|> 	We're told he _trashed_ his leg.   
|> 	
|> 
|> 
|> 	(Not to make fun....)

Hey, that was my joke!

-Olaf

>A lot less injuries this year than what I recall from last year and
>years before.  No fatalities to my knowledge up until I left Sunday
>afternoon.  There was one major hook turn crash involving a cameraman
>from Z-hills, who hit a dumpster on a Scotty Carbone lengerie load and
---->>>>>basically trashed his leg (no pun intended).  Multiple compound
>fractures, etc.
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jcwasik@srv.PacBell.COM (Joe Wasik)
Subject: 1 in 80000 dies.  Oh dear!
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:14:07 GMT

I recently read in a parachuting magazine that in the USA, one in 80,000 jumps
ends in a fatality.  Elsewhere, it's even worse, out of every 50,000 jumps (or
50.000 for you non-USA's) someone dies.  Please say it ain't so.  ... Think
I'm going back to knitting.

-- 
Joe Wasik, Pacific Bell, San Ramon, CA (510)823-2422, jcwasik@pacbell.com
"Be good -- go to church. Be good -- go to church. Be good -- go to church."
	-- Republican Economic Plan.
From: Charolyn_Babichuk@darwin.biochem.ualberta.ca
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:26:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.021338.462@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>
bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church) writes:
>I don't work with students but wanted to throw this out to those who do.
>What about using an actual throwout on student rigs? Would having a system
>where you don't have to break an arch or look be a help? I don't see how
>someone could accidentally pull a cutaway handle when going for a pilot
>chute mounted on thier butt.
>
>
>-- 
>*********************************************
>*    bob church                             *
>*    bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu           *
>*    D-8195 NFS #27                         *
>

We don't even use ripcords up here, we use belly mounted throw out pilot
chutes.  I never had a problem with it because we weren't allowed to progress
unless our arches and practice pulls (rolled newspaper from the pouch) were
perfect.  The deployment method before FF is called IAD or instructor assisted
deployment where the JM holds the pilot chute and releases it as the student
falls away.  This also gives them the option of manually static lining them if
they fall off the strut or look unstable on exit.

Charolyn
Edmonton, Canada
From: yzarn@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com (Philip Yzarn de Louraille)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:43:26 GMT
Organization: Chevron Oil Field Research, La Habra, CA.

In article <731.2AA4B369@ehsnet.fidonet.org> SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.fidonet.org (SKYDIVE) writes:
>Reply-to: Paul.Stansberry@p0.f22.n233.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Stansberry)
>Fido-To: romulus!lhdsy1.lahabra.chevr
>
>Monday August 31 1992, romulus!lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com! writes to Skydive:
>
> rlcc> reserve opens. This did happen to a friend of mine once, and we all
> rlcc> thought that she would die as her reserve was tearing up as she was
> rlcc> going down: it was all burnt up. She made it but  all the surviving
> rlcc> panels of the reserve could be ripped up by hand. Lucky gal.
>
>HOW did the reserve burn up?  Sounds more like a defective chute.

The main risers burnt the reserve as it was deploying.

>
> rlcc> The trick with an SOS system is to pull twice: once to cut-away, so you
> rlcc> pull on the handle maybe 6 inches then you *wait* 1/2 sec to one sec,
> rlcc> then you resume the pulling such that the reserve will open. Of course,
> rlcc> in the heat of the action, this is very hard to do.....
>
>Since I am new at this sport, is the the textbook way of doing this?  In
>other words, what do most skydivers think of this approach?

Don't know if this is the textbook approach. I do not jump a SOS rig. I
just remember that particular jump and the conclusions we came up with
after its occurence.

-- 
  Philip Yzarn de Louraille                 Internet: yzarn@chevron.com
  Research Support Division                 Unix & Open Systems
  Chevron Information & Technology Co.      Tel: (310) 694-9232
  P.O. Box 446, La Habra, CA 90633-0446     Fax: (310) 694-7709
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@virtech.uucp (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: You may pick up your pencils...
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 19:32:17 GMT

Robert Church (bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) wrote:
: In article <4190012@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> boucher@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Richard A Boucher Jr) writes:
: >All this talk about reserve rides and a couple of recent dreams about 
: >malfunctions have got me to wondering...
: >
: >Statement: One cannot fully define one's commitment to or relationship with 
: >the sport of skydiving until one's first reserve ride.
: >
: > 1. True or False?
: 
: I don't think that you can really know how you will react to a malfunction
: until you've had one. As to the commitment and relationship part, I think
: that gets defined the day you see your first bounce. You realize that that
: can and might be you and have to decide if skydiving is worth the risk or
: not.

A couple of years ago I watched a friend go in and boy did that suck.
At about the same time I experienced a real malfunction (as apposed
to a premature AAD firing).  My reserve didn't deploy correctly and
that sucked even more.

Well, I jumped for several more months after that.  Some more time
passed and one day I realized that I hadn't jumped in several months.
For that matter, I ended up taking a hiatus of about 2 years.  All
I did was talk about how cool it was.  I talked about it so much
that one day I got together a group of about 15 people from work
(hi vince, zimm, ken, jag) to make their first jump.  Well, I couldn't
*not* jump after talking them all into it.

Since then, I've been going almost every weekend in many different
states and many different dz's and will keep on going for the
forseeable future.  It's very much a part of my life.
-- 
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166
From: esj@viper.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:59:24 GMT

Well, Javalin student rigs can be ordered SOS or dual handle, and have
had the reserve side main pull for 2 years now. Ive been real pleased 
with them, and like them better then the student Vectors. 

Jerry asks:
>(BTW, Why do student Vectors have belly bands? Didn't the sport decide 
>those were needless and risky?)

BB's are risky only with a throwout system. With a ripcord a twisted belly 
band is just uncomfortable. Why are they there? Well on our student Vectors
thats where the Sentinal brain box is mounted.

As to SOS vs two handle system for students, I am still undecided as to 
the "best" way, as they both have merits:

SOS advantages: simple, easy to teach, more likly to be correctly operated 
by a freaked out student in deep doodoo. Students don't need to worry about 
the complexity of the two handle system until after they have quite a bit 
more "air-awareness". 

SOS disadvantages: Not real skydiving gear, which necessitates emergency 
procedure retraining. This retraining is often done after the student has
graduated, and may or may not be as formal or organized as "regular" student
training. Also this is often done at the same time the student tranasistions
from ripcord to throw out or pull out. Lots of stuff for a baby skydiver to 
assimilate at once. 20-100 jumps is a dangerous period for these and other
reasons. 

Either system is perfectly safe with complete training, followed by 
proper performence. Bad training and/or bad performence can mess up either.

At my DZ we teach the two handle system. The emergency procedures are 
always "cutaway and pull your reserve". And yes, 2 or 3 times a year we have
a reserve ride because a student doing a PRCP pulls the cutaway, and then the 
jumpmaster or static line activates the main, followed by the reserve.
(thanks RSL ;-)


In a perfect world I would want a SOS on all static line students and
two handle for all freefall. 

Typically a student doing a freefall (weather AFF I or after a static line
progression) will be sticking with the sport. Might as well get them in
sport gear when their under total instructional control. One jump thrill seekers
are better served with as easy to operate gear as possible.

Ej
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Article
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 15:27:49 GMT

In article <60034@mimsy.umd.edu> jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:
>Geez...No, I do *NOT* pay Tim.  

but maybe it's about time, eh? ;-)))


>BS
>Jerry

tim


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@virtech.uucp (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: Dumpster accident
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 17:20:27 GMT

Hiroto Shibuya (shibuya@mailhost.bl.cad.slb.com) wrote:
: Skydiver Information Manual doesn't describe
: hookturn progression and Parachutist just keep on saying no.  They
: publicize the bad examples and says that someday it'll get you for
: sure.

[soap-box-mode: on]

This is a very interesting point about the USPA.  They've done a
heluvalot of good for the sport, but there are some items which
need fixing.  The "just say no" campaign has faults.  I don't think
it was useful for Nancy and I don't think it'll be useful for
parachuting.

I probably won't be doing any hook turns in the near future, nor
will I be doing any base jumps, but to not discuss it is like hiding
your head in the sand.  USPA does not cover anything having to do
with BASE jumps or the "correct" way to make a hook-turns (as
implied by Hiroto).

You may argue with me, but I believe that a safe group of skydivers
is an informed group of skydivers.

[soap-box-mode: off]
-- 
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: 1 in 80000 dies.  Oh dear!
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 00:31:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.221407.8578@PacBell.COM> jcwasik@srv.PacBell.COM (Joe Wasik) writes:
>I recently read in a parachuting magazine that in the USA, one in 80,000 jumps
>ends in a fatality.  Elsewhere, it's even worse, out of every 50,000 jumps (or
>50.000 for you non-USA's) someone dies.  Please say it ain't so.  ... Think
>I'm going back to knitting.

Well, here's something another netter posted a while ago- 
might make you reconsider your change to knitting, and
put things in perspective:

Activity       Participants    Fatalities  Rate per 100,000
                                per year    participants
 All accidents   230,000,000     96,000         42
 Traffic
 Fatalities      162,850,000     46,000         28
 Power Boat
 Racing                7,000          5         71
 SCUBA               300,000        140         47
 Mountaineering       60,000         30         50
 Boxing                6,000          3         50

 AIR VEHICLES:
 Air Shows             1,000          5        500
 Homebuilt             8,000         25        312
 General Aviation    550,000        800        145
 Sailplane            20,000          9         45
 Balloon               4,500          3         67
 Hang Gliding         25,000         10         40
 SKYDIVING           110,000         28         25

It says the skydiving stats are for 1988, and it implies
that the other figures are for 1989.


Hope this helps!
-Eric
From: kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Turbine Caribou has crashed
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:37:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23597
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ


Perry the owner of New Cal aviation and one of his pilots died
in an crash of one of their Caribous.
This was the Caribou that has been equipped with turbine engines.
Apparently it flipped on its back during take-off, and crashed.

Beside the loss of these lives, and will probably lead to the loss
of Caribous to the sport of skydiving. Directly affected will be
the Herd boogie (they are securing other planes), and the world
record attempt.

-- 
Peter Kroon  D-12374

phone: (908) 582 7000 
Email: kroon@research.att.com
From: bonitz@ebony.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Bob Bonitz)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Clouds?! (was Re: the best)
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:16:16 GMT
Organization: UC Davis  Robotics Research Lab

>By the way, does anybody know if a plane and skydiver have
>ever collided midair?  

Here's another relevant incident although not a midair.  About ten years ago
at Perris a student landed close to the runway just as the Twin Otter rolled
by.  The right wing of the Otter snagged the jumper's canopy and yanked him
around like a rag doll.  As I recall, the jumper sustained a broken leg.

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: cosper@seq.uncwil.edu (Kit Cosper)
Subject: Re: Please define a few abbreviations
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:03:25 GMT

nws@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Eddie Roberts (The National Weather Service)) writes:

>   defined.  Can someone help me out on the meainings?
>   (I guessed on a few...correct me if I am wrong)

>	-   CTAF
		Commmon Trafic Advisory Frequency aka. UNICOM, used by planes
		at uncontrolled fields to notify others in the area of
		their intentions.

>	-   ATC
		Air Traffic Control, FAA employess concerned with the coordination
		and separation of airplanes in accordance with the appropriate FARs

>	-   BSR
		Anyone??????

>	-   FAR         Federal Aviation Regulations.
		Yes
>	-   GA          General Aviation
		Yes
		
>	    Now if GA is really genaral aviation is there another
>	    abbreviation for commercial aviation or military 
>	    aviation ?
		I dunno

>	-   IFR         Instrumental ?????
		Instrument Flight Rules-governs all flight above 18K and
		flight without aid of outside visual reference, planes 
		can fly under IFR in good weather, too.

>	-   VFR         Visual ?????
		Visual Flight Rules-good weather, good visibility, 
		"Piper Cub" flying so to speak, what a newly licensed 
		Private Pilot flys in and (to the best of my knowledge)
		what skydivers jump in. (At least that's the way it was
		when my Dad was jumping, ~15 years ago).

>	-   The difference between a throw-away pilot-chute and a
>	    pull-out pilot chute.
		Anyone???

-- 
   Kit Cosper                        cosper@seq.uncwil.edu         
   PP-ASEL-IA                        AMA 31022
From: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Jerry's Article
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:55:24 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1992Sep1.045631.6073@mercury.cair.du.edu> tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (The Jumpin Dude) writes:
>
>all you folks that are newcomers to the sport - seek out the September '92
>issue of Parachutist. Jerry's article is a MUST READ. Jerry raises several 
...
>make it a point to study this article. page 30. Off Student Status Separation.
>read it.over and over.

Geez...No, I do *NOT* pay Tim.  
(hey Tim...I'll sell you an autographed copy:-)


>((Jerry looks rather like a skydiver, no?))

What's that supposed to mean...poor and homeless?(:-)

BS
Jerry

-- 
Domain: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu		    Jerry Sobieski
  UUCP:	uunet!mimsy!jerrys		University of Maryland
 Phone:	(301)405-6735		Institute for Advanced Computer Studies
 					College Park, Md 20742
From: smiles@NMC.ED.RAY.COM (Kevin Ruddy)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: New England drop zone & tandem question
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:26:14 GMT

A friend and I want to jump this week.  Another friend recently went to
a place in Northampton, MA, and she says she had a great time and felt very
comfortable.  However, the information I got from this newsgroup last year
said to *avoid* Northampton -- and it said so emphatically!

She said the instructors claimed there hadn't been any accidents (besides
the occasional broken ankle and such, I'm guessing).  Now, if this place is
really scummy they certainly could be shading the truth towards their
advantage.  But no one said what was wrong with Northampton.

Basically, I want to go to a drop zone that's close and that I can feel
good about.  I've gotten recommendations about the DZ in Turners Falls, MA,
and Pepperell, MA.  Oh, and one in Lebanon, ME, but I'm thinking that's
more of a distance away than I want to travel.

Now, about tandem: my friend also chose tandem as her first jump, to see
how she liked it and all.  She relayed to me that tandem is now a method
of teaching?  Five tandem jumps and you end up somewhere in the AFF area?
Is this true?  Is this *good*?  She said she got 33 seconds of free-fall,
which sounds like a good amount for a first jump.  Is AFF too high-pressure?
I'd really like to hear from anyone about this.  My information about tandem
(from last year) says that it's only good as an amusement park ride.

I'd like to hear from anyone about my issues.  I'd appreciate it a lot.
Letters from people I don't even know would make me feel more comfortable
than going into it almost totally blind ...

Kevin
From: fsbgf@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: 11-Cell Canopy Question
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:14:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Sep2.151434.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Does anyone out there jump an 11 cell canopy (like the AR11)?? I'm just asking
out of curiosity. Here at our small DZ we don't see a large variety of
gear and I'm just trying to get some idea of what's out there and what's new.

Brandon
From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Douglas R Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Please define a few abbreviations
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:22:34 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <59985@mimsy.umd.edu>, jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:

>	The relative merits of each are still being argued 
>	(Generally by the throwout guys.)
>	The pullout system will not have a pilot chute in tow
>	if a total occurs, and will not horseshoe (due to the
>	pilot chute) if a premature pack opening occurs.

Hmm.  Let me guess which system you use...

-- 
Doug Puchalski						drp40@cd.amdahl.com