From: dah@tko.vtt.fi (David Harwood)
Subject: Re: Out Of Context Zohar Passage Clarified
Organization: VTT
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:55:53 GMT

In article <9210091414.AA11003@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>
>dah@tko.vtt.fi writes
>
>> (vii) I suppose that some rabbis, and other Jews of some circles and sects
>> in history, have also alterred texts 
>
>While there clearly was self-censorship, particularly in the
>Septuagint (documented in the Talmud), this is not comparable to
>altering another religion's texts.
>
>> and promulgated falsehoods as well, for religous reasons.
>
>Which do you mean?
>
>1. that what they sincerely promulgated were falsehoods...
>
>2. that they intentionally promulgated what they knew were falsehoods,
>   but did it anyway for religious reasons...
>
>If #1, no problem - that's what I expect followers of other
>religions to say.  If #2, I'd like to see some evidence.
>
\\\\\\\\
I said "I suppose" - so I am remarking on human nature, especially when
sectarian religious prejudices are involved. Also, you suppose that I have
#1 or #2 in mind, when I think both are true sometimes. If you need
examples, you can find such (textual and ideological) contradictions within
Jewish traditions, among sectarians. And you can find recriminations 
(even Maimonides was excommunicated by some rabbis and communities) among
sincere peoples. Some thought M- was promulgating false religion.(!) 
	 With respect to Jews and Christians, some things said by 
both in their religious writings are derogatory, moreover untrue, and 
other things are unfair criticisms. While some many people may sincerely 
believe these things, others do not but use them anyway because of their
hatred of others. And religious people are usually no more free from
hatred or sin than anyone else.
	I do not think that either ancient Jews or early Christians 
deliberately tried to alter the Bible - both were careful to preserve it
in variants. (And if you followed academic research of texts, you would
know why academic scholars, Jews and Christians and others, believe that
the Masoretic text is an edition, which occasionally departs from more
ancient texts, sometimes significantly. However, no one questions their
(the M rabbis') reverence.

	You previously accused me, and BC among others, of missionary
motives. (I have been amused to have two Orthodox Jews, acquianitances 
ask me if I was sure that I did not want to convert to Judaism - since 
supposedly Judaism is not a missionary religion (although some scholars
say that it has been at times and locales of history).)
	Anyway, I am sure that you too have some 'missionary' or
rather 'anti-missionary' motives - to 'save' fellow Jews and show up
your opponents or to show that they are wrong at least. But it seems to
me that most people posting here are sincere, if not always intellectually
honest. (There is a difference - that of not being entirely fair to the
truth.)
	Besides this, there are 'missions' and there are 'missions' -
and Bill's is not the same as mine, or yours. (You know the Jewish tradition:
no two 'angels' have the same mission, and they have different spheres of
influence ;-) Anyway, mine is not really not to 'convert' anyone, and not
Jews. I am interested as a Christian in the phenomena of Messianic Judaism,
and in Jewish origins of Christianity. But God 'converted' me (very unexpect-
edly, from atheism) with no help from proselytizers, and He can do the 
same among others. What was necessary was for me to hear the Gospel message
first, although this wasn't sufficient for faith in Jesus, or even for 
belief in the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaiac, and Jacob.
	So I try to explain what is the origin of faith of the Bible: Jews
believe God revealed Himself to Israel, especially the Patriarchs and 
Prophets, and original Christians (Jews of this tradition) believed that
God revealed to them, especially those "apostles," that Jesus was the
Messiah, even after the scandal of the crucifixion. Christianity originates
not with words, even Torah words, it originates with revelation of God's
glory, as in Exodus- there is no form, but Christ 'appears' with God, in
that mind are made to understand that we were very wrong about the one
we despised, Jesus.
	It is interesting - there is only one fairly objective, psychological
account of conversion in the New Testament - the conversion of Paul, as told
by someone presumed to be a Gentile. Maybe that is why he could tell the
story, since it was more or less a secret of Judaism how God (in what form)
did God reveal Himself.
	So, my 'mission' is just to explain the origin of faith in Christ
Jesus, in light of ancient Jewish tradition about God's self-revelation.
That is all it is, here. (I have other 'missions' elsewhere, more charitable
and more rewarding activities ;-) This here is a thankless job, but I didn't
volunteer for it either. I was conscripted, you might say ;-)

D.H.