From: ira2p@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Iain Robert Asplin)
Subject: Re: Invasion of Time
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:23:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.064321.26573@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep29.013038.4421@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>>A whole bunch of stuff deleted to make this readable.
>>The stuff is my argument on Mawdryn and Invasion of time.
>>Ian Robert Asplin replies:
>>
>>>First off, you've proved my point exactly in the text above, that the Eight
>>>were Gallifreyans.  You say from, the video that the Time Lords captured
>>>the eight and set them in the warp ellipse for all eternity.
>>>Then who does the line "the Elders of our planet" refer to?  Must be the
>>>time Lords since they are the ones who abandoned them and put them in
>>>the warp ellips by your own admission!  
>>
>>Oh Brother. How do you figure this out? The line says that the Elders
>>abandoned them to their fate. It could mean that the Elders did not try
>>to interfere when the Time Lords captured them. If they meant the Elders
>>to be the Time Lords, why did they not say so? There is no compelling argument
>>that the 8 were ordinary Gallifreyans. Twist it however you like. All you
>>are doing is attributing a meaning to a throw away line. It can mean all
>>sorts of things.
>
>>If a Gallifreyan is born a Time Lord, then how could the Eight hope
>>to turn themselves into Time Lords with just a regenerator machine,
>>since being a Time Lord is a little more than that, there's the symbiotc
>>nuclei, there's the respiratory bypass system, the link to the Matrix,
>>the telepathy and hypnotism powers, etc.
>
>I think this reinforces my argument. The 8 thought that to be Time Lords
>was simply a matter of regeneration. A Gallifreyan would know there was a 
>lot more to it than that.

If the Eight were already Gallifreyans, then YES  all they would BLOODY
NEED TO BECOME TIME LORDS WOULD BE THE REGENERATIONS!!!


>
>>I still say the Eight were ordinary Gallifreyans, much like Time Lords
>>in many respects, but without regenerations, which is why they stole
>>the machine to try and get themselves the regenerations they didn't
>>have.  As to why they did it this way, we don't know.  Yes, they probably
>>could have passed the academic requirements, but perhaps other things
>>stood in their way of their graduation such as political infighting between
>>Time Lord chapters, perhaps they each already had some sort of "criminal "
>>record that disqualified them, etc.
>
>Suit yourself. I just apply Occam's razor, which I think in this case says
>that the simplest assumtion is that they were alien scientists who the 
>Time Lords caught and punished. We know that knowledge has been stolen 
>from the matrix, and that could be where the 8 got the machine. To me this
>is simpler than assuming an elaborate set of restrictions on Gallifrey and
> "inventing" the theory Time Lords get their regenerations after thay 
>have gone to the academy. You don't see it this way? Oh Well.
>

This is not the simplest argument at all, because it is impossible for
anyone outside Gallifrey to have come in and stolen the regenerator.
They had to be Gallifreyans.  

>
>>As for the "they were operating on themselves then" argument, I agree
>>it was stupid for them to do this, but not so stupid as to make it
>>completely unbelieveable that they would try it.  
>>It happens on our planet often enough.  Athlete X wants to win a race,
>>Athlete X probably has the potential to win the race with more
>>workouts but doesn't want to put in the work or doesn't have time
>>to do the work, so Athlete X, fully aware of what he/she is doing,
>>takes steroids despite their deliterious effects on the human body.
>>"But regeneration is more dangerous than this," you say.
>>On the face of it, it does seem quite a leap.  Perhaps they started
>>slowly, only toying with the regenerator at first to see if they could
>>get it to do anything for them at all, and slowly gaining false
>>confidence in their abilities the further and further they go.
>>Ever see "Flatliners?"  Similar situation to what could have happened
>>with them.  
>>That's how I read the limited background we get on the Mawdryn mutants.
>>I guess you don't.
>
>Fair enough. I do not read it this way. Particularly since we know that
>the Time Lords can give regeneration to other people. The Minyans being the
>example. Why did the 8 steal a machine which was used to assist Time LOrds 
>who have difficulty regenerating? Surely the type of machine they gavce the
>Minyanswould be better? To me this implies that the 8 did not really know
>a lot about regeneration or what the machine would do. IO just cannot 
>believe that brilliant Gallifreya scientists would be so stupid. I always
>saw the story as a "men trying to become Gods" parable. Like the Daleks 
>wanting the hand of omega, the Sontarans wanting the great key. An alien
>race wanting some of the powers of the Time Lords, and using any means to
>get them. (Come to think of it,  the Doctor stole lots of things from 
>Gallifrey. How do we know that a Time Lord didn;t take the regeneration
>equipment from Gallifrey which the 8 later got hold of? We do not of course.
>Just a thought). That's just how I see it.
>
The Minyans did not have the type of regeneration that Time Lords do.
They had machines that would regenerate anything placed into them.
A Time Lord is someone able of regenerating without the aid of a machine.
The type of machine given the Minyans couldn't work since it bestows no
permanant effects.  
By employing your own argument of simplicity, the "another Time Lord
stole the regenerator" is more complex than my theory.

>Mark C.
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