From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More... (long, read at own risk)
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:59:12 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan11.155135.28228@sei.cmu.edu>, psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
:This is only true in the world of the intellect.  One feature of eastern
:philosophy (and even in Christianity) is that knowledge is a property that
:exists in the universe.  In Christianity, God is the dispenser of all that is
:to be known.  A big difference between Christianity and eastern religions, in
:my view, is that *largely* Christianity asks you to take this on faith.
:Eastern religions have a practice by which you personally attempt to attune
:yourself to that source.  Not to say this constitutes "proof" in the
:mathematical sense.

This is not strictly true. If you define 'eastern thought' in the way
you seem to perceive it, fine. However, if you wish to define eastern
thought in terms of geography, there seem to be a number of things you
ignore. 

Regarding blind faith: what about the Krishnas, the Nichiren
Buddhists, those Buddhists that practice Nembutsu (I'm sorry, I forgot
the name of the sect.) If you want to talk about sterile
intellectualism, what about Confucianism. In the Christian traditions,
aside from the Jesuits that have been mentioned, what about Quakers
and Unitarians.

There are certain sects of Buddhists, Hindus, etc., that practice what
I will generically call Yoga. They are a small fraction of the
population. While in general, they are not aware of it, Christians are
encouraged to practice Bhakti (sp?) yoga, the Yoga of Devotion, along
with Karma Yoga, the Yoga of right action. In the east as in the west,
the bulk of people who practice any form of religion engage in these
two Yogas. Those that practice the Yoga of Meditation are rare.

As scientific materialism gained more stature, not just meditative
practices, but religion in general lost a lot of ground. However,
withing the context religion, there is a thriving tradition in
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism of achieving direct personal
experience of the infinite. There however you want to term it,
Qabalic practices and Sufism are as much a part of 'western' religious
practice as yoga is of 'eastern practices'. And within Christianity,
there are a number of thriving contemplative orders. You may wish to
look at works by Thomas Merton, a trappist. Also St. John of the
Cross' _Ascent of Mount Carmel_ and _Dark Night of the Soul_. Also,
Carlo Carretto's _Letters from the Desert_. _The Perennial
Philosophy_, by Aldous Huxley, does a pretty good job of showing the
deep similarities between asian and european religious thought and
practices. 

Our view of eastern philosophy, and its place in asian life, is a bit
skewed. It does not pervade the thinking of the common people as you
seem to think it does. Any more than Kant or Spinoza pervade the
thinking of your average working class American. (Sorry, dad ;-()
Our view of it reflects the fascination with the discovery over the
past century or so in the west of a very rich philosophical heritage.

:My point precisely.  The product of any intellect (where it is exclusively
:intellectual/dialectical discussion) is worth no more than the credential of
:the person sitting before you.  Yes, they may possess genius, yes they may
:have a photographic memory of all preceding philosophers and the capacity to
:synthesize vast bodies of thought, but what of that is meaningful in terms of
:truly understanding the nature of existence on this planet, life, death,
:baldness, lack of good sex...

The difference has been primarily on emphasis. The 'practice' of
western philosophy has been in the fields of politics and economics.
Democracy, which I don't think has been seen too much of in Asia, is a
direct product of western philosophy. The gradual abandonment of the
abusive practices of the Catholic chuch hierarchy are a direct
outgrowth of Western Philosophy. The scientific method is a direct
outgrowth of western philosophy.

As it turns out, science is the most powerful outgrowth of this
philosophy. It is a very powerful tool that will probably kill us
before we figure out how to use it properly.

With this regard, look how effective eastern thought has been in
influencing eastern government. It has produced a FEW happy,
enlightened individuals. Western practice has generally tried to
'save' humanity in bulk. Yoga focuses on the individual.

:I believe that most eastern philosophy is based on the premise that there is
:law in nature, that there is extant consciousness in the universe itself, and
:the point in deep meditation (and study) is to attune with that.  In the west,
:we have separated all of this.  We have Christianity, which (in general)
:stands for the subjugation of nature, not attunement.  

This is not Christianity. This is scientific materialism, all over again.

:Further, virtually every reference to my posts has pointed to Nietzsche, Kant,
:Spinoza, blah blah blah... never acknowledging that in regards to any of
:these, there is absolutely no such thing as a practice related to their
:thoughts.  

Their practice is simply on a different scale than you are thinking
of. 

An easterner
:would more likely be looking for the connections between them all, and be
:unsatisfied until these connections were found.

Again, this is a bit much of a generalization.

:Indeed, I am no one.  And who cares?  I think we have to find out for
:ourselves, and I think reading Nietzsche is a fascinating and useless
:exercise.  On the other hand, reading Nietzsche constantly while breathing
:deeply, fasting and chanting for hours... who knows?  But there certainly is
:no defined Nietzsche-ist practice.

Nietzshe's practice is that of observation, and the exercize of
reason. This is in essence no different from Vipassana meditation. He
says look, and you will see such and such patterns in human behavior,
and they can be such and such. And you can apply such observations to
yourself as well, and change your perspective on your life and the
things you do. And this is certainly yoga.

 Quite opposed to the western
:view, which seems to feel that enlightment (via philosophy, separate from
:religion) is derived by logical supposition, dialectics, and in general the
:act of hypothesizing and refuting--notions, none of which is ever really
:"tested" per se.  Science is a kind of controlling factor for the suppositions
:of the philosophers, but only in a very general way.  They really are separate
:disciplines.  

What do you think jnana yoga is? Logical refutations, lots of neti
neti's, in order to get at enlightenment.
:
:Yeah, east is where your mind is (IMHO).

I know you like contention, and your definition of eastern and western
are indeed arbitrary, and prone to induce more contention. Some less
contentious terms which might be substituted: holistic philosophies,
scientific materialism, dualistic thought, religious fundamentalism,
etc. You reflect the common practice of not noticing what's in your
own back yard, the grass is always greener..., etc.  The only real
difference between european based societies and the rest of the world
is that we got science and technology first, and got to abuse it
first. It allows us to abuse on a much grander scale than anyone else.
I could just imagine what it was like when the first neanderthals
figured out they could hurt each other from a distance with pointy
sticks. 

		in gassho,
			Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts