HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Chastity
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 02:17:33 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK> writes:

> (From the banshee   )
>
> Surely the answer to lack of sexual morals is to teach young people (like me)
> to see sex as something that is good and beautiful in the right situation...
> ie Matrimony.  Rather than emphasising the sinfulness of it in the wrong
> situation because this gives us hang-ups and makes us afraid... and according
> to my catechism those are as much lack of chastity as sex outside marriage.
>
> God bless,
> Rebecca

Rebecca, when I was teaching high school, I found the best approach was to have
kids who were not virigns tell the rest how it sex really wasn't all that it
was made out to be, so they shouldn't give into hormonal urges and wait till
they found (and married) the right person.  I don't know about giving
teen-agers lots of hangups by talking about sin.  I think that a practical
approach normally gets teens to listen, then you can talk about the sinfulness
after you've got their attention.  If you don't, you just get tuned out.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992 13:00:19 EDT
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Altar girls and millstones update

I see that I accidentally left out some words in my discussion
of the corrupting effects of using alter girls.  Here is the
passage in question, with the omitted words in angle brackets:

Using altar girls corrupts the children of the parish, especially
the altar girls themselves.  They are taught by example that if
they don't like any of the Church's rules they are free to ignore
And they are taught this by the people who have a special
responsibility before God to <teach them to> obey God and
His Church: the pastor who permits the unauthorized use of altar
girls and the parents who permit their children to participate
That is bad enough, but if it is okay to defy the laws of God's
Church, why not defy the laws of God Himself?  After all,
the Church's legislative authority comes from God.

Marty Helgesen
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 1 Oct 1992 01:11:58 CDT
From: <U24201@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Question About The Apostles

Besides the Acts of The Apostles, can anyone recommend a book(s) or article(s)
that researches the travels of all the apostles after the ascension of
Jesus Christ?              Thanks in advance.
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:28:33 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authority on the Church...

Excerpts from catholic: 6-Oct-92 Re: Authority on the Church... Len
Howard@PEGASUS.COM (844)

>     There has been an information explosion, technological explosion,
> and scientific explosion.  We are facing situations, problems and
> questions today that we did not even conceive of 50 years ago.  What
> provision for change based on these deveolpments exists within the
> Church of Rome?
> Shalom,                              Len Howard
>                                      tas@pegasus.com

Well, I think the church has adapted pretty well.  Some fifty years ago,
the church came out with an encyclical on motion pictures, and avoiding
the moral danger they may pose (while praising the good qualities).
Later it updated it, and covered motion pictures and television. This
not only cautioned against addiction to television, but also encouraged
the use of television for ministry purposes.  Humanae Vitae covered
advances in contraceptive technology and answered questions concerning
the licety of various contraceptive methods.  Rerum Novarum in the late
19th century discussed the treatment of workers in the industrial age.
An update to that was issued on the 100th anniversary of Rerum Novarum,
I believe.  Today the church has addressed both capitalism and Marxism
and offered criticism of both.  The church has also responded to medical
advances in conception, and has roundly condemned artificial
insemination and in vitro fertilization.

Naturally, of course, modern day technology does not affect the basic
articles of faith. Our doctrinal truths remain the same.  New moral
problems, however, arise, and must be confronted and discussed.

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:13:28 -0400
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Fatima

Well, Rebecca, I guess I'm just the proverbial "doubting Thomas".
Does anybody know what that "miracle of the sun" was that supposedly
everybody witnessed? Or was that a typo for 'Son'?

For me, that other prediction of Oct 28th would have made more sense if
it had been Nov 3rd (Election Day here in the States:-) - J.J.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: RE: Fatima
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 20:03:59 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

> Well, Rebecca, I guess I'm just the proverbial "doubting Thomas".
> Does anybody know what that "miracle of the sun" was that supposedly
> everybody witnessed? Or was that a typo for 'Son'?
>
> For me, that other prediction of Oct 28th would have made more sense if
> it had been Nov 3rd (Election Day here in the States:-) - J.J.

J.J., the 'miracle of the sun' was witnessed by thousands.  Supposedly, the sun
became a spinning disk, and started moving down towards the gathered crowd.
It had been raining all morning, everyone was soaked, but after the sun did its
thing, everyone was dry.

Unlike the sun movement stories you hear of coming out of Medjugorje, this one
was witnessed by a very large number of people, instead of one or two people
staring up until they have retina damage.

I don't have my Fatima documentation handy, perhaps someone else can be more
specific on dates and the size of the crowd.  Point is, I believe that one
happened...



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:20:39 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Deacons

I've been wondering about this for a while, but haven't gotten around to
investigating it.  Can someone post a rough outline of what is involved in
becoming a Deacon?  I'm curious as to education requirements, time
commitment, etc.  It might be a role many of us might be able to step into
in the future if the shortage of Priests continues to worsen.

Thanks,
Brent Winiger
abdwinig@idbsu.idbsu.edu
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:52:40 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: A question of intercommunion
              intercommunion" (Sep 24,  8:11pm)

On Sep 24,  8:11pm, "()" wrote:
} Subject: Re: A question of intercommunion
} A priest friend of mine said he gives people the benefit of the doubt as to
} their preparedness for whatever sacrament, since he doesn't know what has gone
} on in the person's soul. Also remember that every mass includes confession:
} "I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have
} sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have
} done and what I have failed to do. And I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all
} the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to
} the Lord our God...."

	The Confiteor is most definitely NOT a replacement for sacramental
Confession!
}
} So rejoice in those people coming to communion! Invite your friends when you
} go to confession, offer a ride or something. Be glad, we're an Easter people!

	I agree.  If I suspect a friend has difficulty 'getting up their
nerve' to go, I just say 'hey, I'm going to Confession; wanna come?'.  It
seems easier if you go with a friend.



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
I like work; it fascinates me; I can sit and look at it for hours.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 10:31:25 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Lay leadership at communion services
              services" (Sep 30,  3:59pm)

J.J.  This is a very valid concept.  In many remote areas one priest
will make the circuit, visiting a parish once a month....  When he
conducts the Eucharist, he consecrates enough of the elements so the
Deacon can conduct the service with reserved Sacraments until his
return.

Shalom,                           Len Howard
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:31:57 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Not about women priests, it's about changing rules

Excerpts from catholic: 6-Oct-92 Not about women priests, it.. Bob von
Buelow@SPIKE.JPL (1229)

> Man-made rules can change.  Whether they will or not is another question,
> it is the objection that they CANNOT change that gets my dander up.

But what makes you so sure that these are man-made rules and not
divinely revealed rules?

Actually we aren't talking rules.  We are talking divine truths.  It's
not whether women should be allowed to be priests. The issue is, if you
ordain a woman, will she be a priest?

For example, take the issue of communion matter.  Take wine and grape
juice.  Get a priest to consecrate both of them -- no matter how hard he
tries, the grape juice will never become the blood of Christ, because
it's impossible.  It cannot be done.  The wine can always become the
blood of Christ, but no matter how hard you try, no matter how badly you
want it, you cannot successfully consecrate grape juice, because it is
invalid matter for the Eucharist.

Similarly, even if you try to ordain a woman, it won't work -- it's
impossible, women cannot be ordained.  It's not that it's not permitted,
it's that the ordination will fail.  To say that this means men are
better than women is as absurd as saying that wine is better than grape
juice because it can be consecrated in the Eucharist and grape juice
cannot.

All this argument about misogyny is fruitless because the issue is that
ordination of a woman will fail and she can never be a priest even if
you attempt to ordain her.

Eric
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From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: Re: Theotokos
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:09:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Louisville

In <6OCT199210470602@scsuc.ctstateu.edu> collison@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (COLLISON,STEVEN) writes:

>If I may, let me shed some light on the subject of Theotokos. It's really very 
>simple. Jesus Christ is one person (the Second Person of the Trinity) sub-
>sisting in two natures - one human, one divine. This is the hypostatic union. 
>The relationship between Mary and Jesus is a person to person relationship as
>it is with any mother and child. Since the person of Christ is Almighty God 
>then Mary can rightly be called the Mother of God. Joseph is simply the 
>stepfather of Jesus juridicly not hypostatically.

Theotokos = (Greek) God Bearer
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing                     | "What we call the beginning is often the end
Electrical Engineering Department|  And to make an end is to make a beginning.
University of Louisville         |  The end is where we start from . . ."
                                 |  -- T.S. Eliot, "Four Quartets"
              Internet:  edjans01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
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From: rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert)
Subject: Re: pre Vat II ?
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 23:35:33 GMT


    ...Quot homines, tot opiniones.  Well, to put in my two bits, I
would mention the distinction between substantive law and procedural
law.  As the names suggest, the second kind is primarily concerned
with how things are done, practices, customs, and the like, while the
first kind is more concerned with basic questions of right and wrong.
I know the distinction isn't all that clear cut, but in most cases,
it is probably not too difficult whether to consider a law as
being substantive or procedural.  Now, I mean these remarks to 
apply to civil law.

    But, to come to my point, I think this distinction is applicable
in trying to understand the Vatican II statements in the proper way.
As far as I can tell, the changes that Vatican II brought about are
largely in procedural matters, such as the celebration of the sacraments.
I don't think Vatican II meant to _change_ any teachings of the Church
as such.  Some teachings needed clarification, certainly.  Others needed
application to the situation of the world today.  But from the documents
I've read, I just don't get a sense that Vatican II was out to change
substantive law much.

    Let me add that some people, I think, do not consider the difference
between procedural and substantive law to be all that important, and
look at "the spirit of Vatican II" as a way of effecting whatever kind
of change they happen to want.  (I don't mean to be harsh -- I'm just
basing this on observation.)  And thus, as you can see, I don't think
this is really taking the council in the right way.

    God bless,


John R.					  Praestet fides supplementum
					  sensuum defectui.
						 -- S. Thomas

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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:01:14 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              Mailing List)" dated "Tue, 29 Sep 92 13:03:43 -0400"

Excerpts from catholic: 29-Sep-92 Re: mysticism Free Catholic Mailing @? (3247)

> eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
> >> Folks...Don't be fooled in to thinking that Catholicism is monotheistic.
> >> It never has been...it never will.  Angels are simply renamed versions
> >> of pagan gods...placed in to a more 'biblical' format.  Remember the
> >> 'Communion of Saints'?  The thing that makes biblebelters think that
> >> Catholics are Satan worshipers?  How do you think the church converted
> >> millions of pagans? By EXPANDING their relegion...not killing it.

> >> Idbil Fubar

> >Who are you?  You obviously know little about Catholicism and
> >Christianity, for every week we declare our faith in one God.  The only
> >named angels we know are Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, all names from
> >Scripture.  Michael means "Who is like God?", Gabriel means "God is my
> >strength", and "Raphael" means "God heals" (I think that's how it goes).
> > Hardly renamed pagan gods.

> I know a lot about christianity and Catholicism.  You declare faith in
> ONE god...Hmmm...FATHERSONHOLYGHOST. That's his name eh?  NO!
> In a vague sence catholicism is monotheistic...but only in a vague sence...
> What many pagan relegions do to be called polytheistic is much less than
> the catholic church.

> >You appear to me to be Muslim at first glance.

> Nope...
> Mail me if you really want to know...(it's kind of long and needs a tad of
> explaination)
> >In any case, you are
> >welcome to listen and post, but you should extend common courtesy and
> >politeness to us;

> Sorry...My rhetorical style has been imprinted long ago...I'm working on
> sounding polite.

> >we do not get on the Islam list and attack the Islamic
> >faith, so it would be courteous if you did not come on this list with
> >the intention of knocking our faith.

> As I said I am not islamic, but I DO receive nasty comments from all sorts
> of folks from many relegions.  Including catholics which to an extent I am.
> Hmmm...
> I'll try not to ramble.

Of course, Fubar, I should have recognized it as a pseudonym.  Don't I
look silly!

Eric
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From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Subject: Re: mysticism
Organization: none
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 13:58:28 GMT

In article <m0mYMHd-0000ioC@bkhouse.cts.com> Norman Kraft <nkraft@BKHOUSE.CTS.COM> writes:

   > Catholic pastors have NO BUSINESS quoting substantial portions from
   > Buddhists or Hindus, PARTICULARLY if they are promoting their
   > theological views! This is idolatry and heresy!

   Hmmm. Heretics like Thomas Merton? Dom Aldred Graham? William Johnston,
   S.J.? All of whom wrote extensively about Zen and Buddhism, and
   incorporated practices from Zen into their own spiritual journey.
   Or J. DeChanet, S.J., who wrote about "Christian Yoga"? How about
   Mechtild of Magdeburg? Meister Eckhart? Julian of Norwich? St. John of
   the Cross? All of whom taught that every person is a mystic,
   and that the mystic path is a beautiful and deep one, not a dangerous
   one. Heretics all! Possessed by Satan! .... Poppycock.

This is rather mixed up.  Thomas Merton and St. John of the Cross in
the same breath?

Zen has no place in Catholic spirituality.  I believe I read something
from Rome to that effect just recently.  Unfortunately, I can't for
the life of me remember what it was.
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:56:26 -0400
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor

Yes, I saw the insult to our Holy Father as well.  I was outraged, and
immediately prayed for Sinead O'Connor.  I called my husband into the
room, and could hardly describe what I had seen.  I felt physical pain.
I plan to offer sacrifice in reparation for her offense and am praying
about whether or not to write the network.  Does anyone have the address?

Jane Wallace Mayo		| Jesus, Redeemer, have mercy on me
mayo@cs.utk.edu			|    and set me free.
From: ern+@pitt.edu (Ernest J Obusek)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: kneeling
Date: 28 Sep 92 12:24:40 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <sek95u2_NU000qE=AW@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com> ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com writes:
>Kneeling is important because it expresses our believe that the
>Eucharist *IS* God.  Kneeling is a form of honor, even worship, and so
>we kneel -- and genuflect -- in adoration (worship) of the Eucharist.

This is exactly how I feel, especially at the consecration.  That's my GOD up
there, my LORD, my KING.  I just can't imagine not kneeling at that point!

And yes, I understand that he is also my friend and brother and all that, but
the Blessed Sacrament is a remembrance of Christ's sacrifice - his horrible
death on the cross.  How do you best show honor and respect and love and
thanksgiving for this?  I have to kneel...

>Eric

Ernest Obusek

"My God!  Oh how I love thee!"

ern@unixd.cis.pitt.edu

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 12:35:45 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Deacons
              Deacons" (Oct  3,  5:58pm)

Ed, as I read your posting, I really have to ask you some
questions.  You mention your son, and I get the idea that he is
still young, as are you.  One of the topics really questioned in
our meetings with the commission on ministry is the status of the
family.  My children are all grown, married and on their own.  My
wife is taking the courses concurrently.  We have no other
obligations than our church and my job.  I find that the
diaconate training is integrating well with the practice of
medicine and is actually increasing my sensitivity to the needs
of my patients.  I would worry that you might be decreasing the
time spent with your family if you go into the diaconate training
at this point in time.  It is a very demanding ministry, both of
time and of emotional commitment.  You should really think about
this and talk about it with your wife.  Ask yourself if you are
spending as much time with your son and wife as is needed.  I
wish now I had spent more time with my kids when they were
growing up, but have a second chance with my grandson.  If there
is any hesitancy in your mind, then you may need to wait a while,
and then when there is a clear path, respond to the call.  It
will still be there.
Shalom,                          Len Howard
                                 tas@pegasus.com
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From: topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent)
Subject: Re:      Re: Women are unclean
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:35:20 GMT


ok folks.  we get the point.
can we stop it with this annoying topic.
we are not getting anywhere.
i haven't read a productive, meaningful article yet
everything is geared to overstatement and exaggeration
to produce more meaningless arguments, i suppose.

vince
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:59:41 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mary

Eric James Ewanco (ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM) writes:

>There is no biological link between Joseph and God.

But I, as an adoptive parent, know that does not make Joseph any less the father
of Jesus.  Therefore, any reasoning you apply to Mary's state of parent to Jesus
is equally applicable to Joseph.

>The point is that Mary was the Mother of God in every way that any woman
>is a mother.

No doubt about that.

>James, of course, according to Catholic doctrine, was not Mary's son.

The operant words: "according to Catholic doctrine."

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:26:45 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: relative importance of various doctrines (pt 2 of 2)

Will Bralick  (wbralick@afit.af.mil) writes:
>During one RCIA session the leader person told the catechumens that
>they ``didn't _have_ to pray to Mary or the saints.''  Well, this is
>technically correct, but what impression were these non-Catholics left
>with?  The leader person never bothered to explained _why_ Catholics
>pray to Mary and the saints.

I don't believe that Catholics are taught to pray TO the saints, as that would
be a form of idolotry.  Rather we seek the intercession of the saints
on our behalf.  That is, just as I might ask a friend to pray for me, I might
seek the intercession the saint and angels, or to have the pray FOR/WITH me
to the one living God.

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
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