HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Proof that small classes=better education?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 22:40:08 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@state.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Nov17.183820.17702@athena.mit.edu>, solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>I agree with the first statement, but disagree with your conclusion. The
>problem is that when schools suddenly decrease class size, the teacher rarely
>changes his/her routine to utilize the smaller class size to his/her advantage.
>Its like spending additional money on schools. You can't just add a resource (in
>these two cases time and money). You have to make sure that it is used wisely.
>Otherwise it just gets wasted (on the janitors :-).

    I've noticed this more in college than in high schools where the
lecture format is used.   One problem with most classes is that 
students can get very passive, and that only two or three people
participate most of the times.   I basically agree that smaller
classes *should* be better, but teachers and students have to adapt
to the smaller class so that they *are* better.   
 
  For example, in a one-on-one situation, the teacher would be expected
to question the student more often, the student ought to be prepared
to ask questions when confusion arises, and the teacher can adapt
to the needs of the student.   A smaller class (say, around ten or
so) ought to be able to partly emulate this kind of teaching, either
by having the teacher question students individually, or by having
students teach each other, if there are several students who understand
it more quickly than others.

   A small class ought to foster more creative kinds of learning
rather than more rote learning or lecture style learning that is
sometimes used in larger classes.   This can even apply to classes
that are traditionally thought to have "right and wrong" answers
such as math or science.  In these smaller  classes, reasoning out loud,
and getting a more intuitive feel for the material ought to be
emphasized more.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
From: marder@agri.huji.ac.il
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:28:51 IST
 <1992Nov13.220752.22474@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> <BxrEzG.3Cn@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem - Faculty of Agriculture

In article <BxrEzG.3Cn@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
[ ... ]
>
>>>There are those who deride calculators; but it is more
>>>important to teach Johnny WNEN to add than HOW to add.  Calculators and
>>>computers have made much of what is now emphasized almost irrelevant.
>
>>     I disagree.  Unless you do at least some drill, how are you
>>supposed to distinguish plausible from implausible answers?  Drill
>>reinforces intuition about this sort of thing.  In other words, you
>>have to have some facility with arithmetic to make ballpark estimates
>>of what number should be dropping out of a given calculation.
>
As they say, anyone can make a mistake, but it takes a computer to really
screw things up!
The human element is important to pick up the unexpected.
(e.g. that $10,000,000 bonus in Joe Poor's pay check).  In the good old
days of slide-rules and log tables, I think that most of us did a ball-park
calculation to make sure we weren't a couple of orders of magnitude out.
I suspect that many calculator users don't check the answer, and therefore
don't pick up their own keying errors.
--
                                 '      Jonathan B. Marder
Internet: MARDER@AGRI.HUJI.AC.IL |      Department of Agricultural Botany
Bitnet:   MARDER@HUJIAGRI        | /\/  The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Phone:    (08 or +9728) 481918   |/  \  Faculty of Agriculture
Fax:      (08 or +9728) 467763   /      P.O.Box 12, Rehovot 76100, ISRAEL
From: bruceh@access.isc-br.com (Bruce Hogan)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Home Schooling
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:21:06 GMT
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo

In article <17616@mindlink.bc.ca>, Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
> 
> Ken Gerke asks:
> 
> Are there any home schoolers in this news group?  We have been

> So let's hear from people who are home schooling--and from those who have

Count me in.  But I'm not sure I am responding properly because I have responded
to several posts but have never had a response.

Is this getting through?

We have 4 children (1 daughter 14 yrs, 3 boys aged 5 and under) and have
home schooled all the way through.  It's been exciting to experience the 
personal growth that comes from revisiting the subjects that I merely
memorized steps without understanding what was being accomplished.

We are a part of a support group that signed up 100 families in the fall and 
25 more since.  Understand there are about 15 such groups in Spokane area, 
though I have no idea of their size.

That's enough.  I want to see if any of this is getting through.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Jensen_C@msm.cdx.mot.com
Subject: Re: Homeschool Netgroup
Organization: Motorola_Codex
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:41:28 GMT

In article <CMM.0.90.4.722219602.sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Stephen S
Davis <sdavis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>
>Although I have not heard from them for a bit I subscribed to a
>homeschool news group at:
>
>home-ed-request@ima.isc.com
>

That is an outdated address.  The list just changed moderators, but I've been
on the list for about 6 mos and have never seen that one!  maybe that why your
activity is so low :-)  The new address is :

home-ed-request@think.com


Another related list is the learning list which is focused specifically on
learning/teaching techniques for children, avoiding the discussions of school
boards, government policies, and religious differences.  Subscribe at:

learning-request@sea.east.sun.com
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:37:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.085156.18309@ra.msstate.edu> wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator) writes:
>>There is no information about who will or who will not be even a competent
>>teacher which is available to anybody at the time of hiring.  Even the
>>best universities cannot afford to use reasonable standards for prospective
>>schoolteachers, or they will turn out almost none.  The schools of edcuation
>>do an evaluation, but what are they evaluating; do not ask the fox to watch

>	I for one, think you're right about Unis turning out little
>teachers if they had good standards of teaching--not when TA's are used to
>save money.

TA's are not primarily used to save money, and TA's are not that bad as
teachers.  In the universities, it is those who are teaching the same
courses repeatedly who are likely not to be doing a good job, although
they are usually popular.

>>  Even in universities,
>>the hiring decisions are largely made by the individual departments.

>>I HAVE suggested that there be the possibility of evaluations by scholars.
>>The objections to this are massive.

>	Since in Unis the people in the depts are supposed to be scholars,
>why the need for outside scholars--if that's what you meant--when the
>people inside should be able to make a better judgment due to their
>insider knowledge of the workings of the dept concerned?

University departments often do use the evaluations of outside scholars.
But I was referring to elementary and secondary school teachers; to get
quality, there must be evaluation by those capable of intelligently 
maintaining standards.  I know of no other group now with this capability
than the subject matter scholars, who should decide on the basis of whether
the prospective teacher knows the subject well enough to assist the child
or grandchild of the scholar to learn what the scholars think should be
taught.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Of Lawyers, Doctors and Profs...
Date: 20 Nov 1992 22:31:01 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) writes:

>In article <1992Nov20.090140.18847@ra.msstate.edu> wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov18.202238.13754@news.clarkson.edu> rajat@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor) writes:
>>> 
>>>Interestingly, all the three have an easy way out if they lose :
>>>
>>>Lawyers:  " It was a weak case" 
>>>Doctors:  " The patient would have died anyway " 
>>>Profs  :  " The student was hopeless" 

>>	I think the last case is cited quite frequently, no?

>Often in reference to students who become lawyers after failing to 
>become doctors. 
>                           ;-)

When a lawyer screws up, you don't hear about it because the victim stays
in the can forever.

When a doctor screws up, the patient is quietly buried.

When a Prof screws up, the student POSTS to USENET with a LOT OF CAPITAL
LETTERS.

-- 
		David Palmer		 palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
From: pas@kepler.unh.edu (Paul A Sand)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Proof that small classes=better education?
Date: 14 Nov 1992 20:37:52 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu
Summary: Nope, sorry.

dh: Don Hosek

dh: Now, I _know_ that smaller classroom size improves the educational
    quality of a school (more individual attention to students, etc.)
    but I'd like to be able to convince the "show me, don't tell me"
    people. [...] If anyone can help me on this, I'd appreciate it.

If there's any such evidence, I've not seen it.  Numerous studies have
failed to find any such link. Unfortunately, this isn't a particularly
well-publicized fact, causing numerous folks like Mr. Hosek to ``know''
things that simply aren't so.

Arranging for smaller class sizes is a popular (and expensive) way to
allow educrats to claim they're `improving' the school system. But
quite simply, there are much more effective things to do that are a lot
cheaper (for example, allowing teachers to spend more time during the
school day in instructional activity rather than administrative
busywork and discipline).

A reference one might be able to find in a library that receives
government documents: ``Class Size and Public Policy: Politics and
Panaceas'' by Tommy M. Tomlinson, Office of Educational Research and
Improvement, US Department of Education, 1988.

-- 
-- Paul A. Sand                | Keep out of the reach of children and pets.
-- University of New Hampshire | Prolonged eye contact may cause irritation.
-- pas@kepler.unh.edu          | 
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: rsansone@tjhsst.vak12ed.edu (Robert Sansone)
Subject: Macintosh/Desktop control
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Fairfax)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 01:25:22 GMT

We have purchased several hundered macintosh computers and we
are beginning to have a problem with student & teacher either
reorganizing, trashing items/programs, adding/deleting item on
the Mac hardrives and/or control panels etc...

With system 6.0.8 we could use something called Student Home
Card which created a "Menu Like" desktop and allowed limited
access to the desktop level.... We are aware of a few programs
like AtEase & MacPassword that help solve this problem...

Was wondering how others solved this problem and what
programs/steps might be taken to solve this problem....

Robert J. Sansone
Computer Applications Specialist
Technology Services
Fairfax County Public Schools
Fairfax, VA
703-503-7582
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Free Middle/High School Broadcasts
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:54:14 GMT

In article <17615@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>The "underrepresentation" issue has both a serious and an absurd side. The
>serious side addresses the fact that some professions, very well paid and
>influential, are dominated by white males of northwest European extraction.
>Other groups would prosper (or at least more of their individual members
>would prosper) by gaining access to those professions. The professions in
>turn would benefit from the "newcomer syndrome," a happy effect caused by
>people who don't know what can't be done and therefore do it anyway. For
>those reasons alone, we should encourage women, ethnic minorities and other
>non-traditional suppliers of members to those professions.

>On the other hand, no one complains about the underrepresentation of white
>female college grads in the ranks of garbage collectors, process servers,
>mall security guards, and other low-prestige positions. (Lack of such
>representation in the US Senate, another low-prestige profession, has been
>bewailed, however.) "Representationalism" essentially accepts the
>blind-growth, get-rich attitude that ignores any thought of settling down to
>a sustainable economic level; it wants a bigger slice of a poisoned pie. We
>will be better off with fewer people of any race, gender or persuasion in
>professions like law and automotive engineering, and more people in
>productive, environmentally sustainable occupations.

There does not seem to be any complaints about the underrepresentation of
white athletes in most of the well-paying professional sports, or on the
US Olympic track team, etc.  Is there even one NBA team which is 50% white?
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:46:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.140906.29796@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes:
>In article <BxsELH.65C@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us
>(Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>>OK, so how do you explain the bad reputations teachers have among people 
>>who don't have kids in school (like myself)?  Has it occurred to you that
>>such bad reputations might be JUSTIFIED?

>     Maybe it is, but the problem can't possibly be that simple.  There
>are so many parents who send their children to school so ill-prepared
>and ill-disposed to learn that even a competent teacher could do little
>but keep order and dispense pablum.  North Americans (sadly, often even
>educated ones) don't have the right attitude to schooling and they pass
>these attitudes on to their children.  If the kids don't want to be
>there because their parents haven't given them reason to believe that
>there is a purpose to their presence in school, what exactly can a
>teacher do?
>     I think that if you fix the parents, the teachers will fall into
>line.  Unfortunately, that's an almost impossible task.

There is much in what you say, but the sad fact is that far too many of
the teachers really are that bad.  This even happens in a community like
mine, which is substantially faculty and professional people.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Xref: sparky misc.education:4430 alt.discrimination:4694 soc.culture.african.american:11374 soc.women:20039
From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:13:15 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: redondo.sw.stratus.com

In article <1ejc9tINNku@debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu>, guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory) writes:
> stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski) writes:
> 
> >or, for that matter, "my great-great-great-great grandmother ran the
> >most wretched whorehouse in ancient Thebes, so add 10 points to my
> >exam score"...
> 
> I hate to take offence at the last sentence of a long post, but I strongly
> object to the inference that blacks get preferential treatment in the classroom
> and in grading. I have NEVER, in my years as a student at three institutions, 
> including one in the UC system, observed such incidents. 

The problem is not that blacks (among other minorities) get preferential
treatment, it is that unqualified blacks (who were admitted on academic
credentials that would have been rejected for a white or asian student)
get preferential treatment.  And I don't think that it is grading once you
are in that is the issue, it's getting an adjusted score on an admissions
test if you are the right minority.  This is a well-known practice at almost
all major universities.  Read "Illiberal Education", by Dinesh D'Souza.  You
may not agree with all of his conclusions, but it's hard to refute statements
not just admitted, but boasted of, that your university does these things.

> Oh, BTW, I would just like you to know that as a black man, I am not the one
> who reminds myself that I am black everyday. It is the white society that
> I live in. I would hardly notice I am black if a white person didn't remind
> me of it everyday. Think about that.

Granted.

> >Stefan
> 
> Stanford S. Guillory
> guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu

-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: msood@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: MULTICULTURAL CHILDREN'S LITERATURE
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:26:30 GMT

IS ANYBODY OUT THERE DEALING WITH MULTICULTURAL CHILDREN'S LITERATURE?
IF YOU NAMES OF PEOPLE, BOOKS AND SO ON ...PLEASE LET ME KNOW!
MY ADD IS MSOOD@HAMP.HAMPSHIRE.EDU
THANK YOU!!!!
Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: lwalsh@nemo (Laura L. Walsh)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:31:09 GMT

masterov@crystallizer.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Masterov) writes:
>In article <lgl5mfINNakj@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix) writes:

>Now we can deal with incompetence.  But first, WHAT IS INCOMPETENCE?
>A teacher, to be effective, must know the material, know how to explain
>the material, and know how to maintain discipline in either a primary
>school environment (bunch of little kids) or secondary school environment
>(bunch of hormone crazed teenagers). 
...
>                                                     In my personal
>experience, and the experience of everyone I know who attended High
>School in the US, the HS techers who taught the math and science
>subjects had little or no knowledge even of the subject they taught.
>That is clear INCOMPETENCE.  One can not explain what one does not
>understand.

>Earlier in this thread, someone suggested using PhD's in HS.  Again,
>in my experience, the PhD level professors (and a few teachers in HS
>I have had) DID know the subject they taught, with a few exceptions.
...
>                  Most student questions have a nearly null semantic
>content - and require a person who can TEACH to understand where the
>difficulty lies and explain in terms that students can understand.
>The vast majority of these PhD professors WERE NOT able to do that.
>They, too, were incompetent.

>Teaching effectively may well be as difficult or more difficult than
>the effective practice of medicine - and it is perfectly possible for
>a teacher to be above average and still incompetent.

Now, when I taught, I understood the material and I was very
competent at explaining it to children [I have taught pre-
schoolers through high schoolers], but I was clearly not so
competent at maintaining discipline.  I could help the kids
who would try, but I couldn't deal with the kids who wouldn't.
So there are really three ways to be incompetent.

After becoming a parent, I think I have improved on the latter
category, too, but you won't get me back in teaching, anyway.
The working conditions are too hard and the pay to little.
Laura Walsh
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Channel One (was Re: Tell me about Chapter One funding)
Organization: Quake Public Access
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:06:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.172804.18121@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> klf@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (karen.l.fenton) writes:
>In article <83516@ut-emx.uucp>, andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard) writes:
 
>I *personally* had a problem with the content. I found most of the
>material too vapid - it lacked depth. 

I find that to be a problem for almost all educational materials.  

>And there was the clear
>message that GOOD == music && age < 24. In fact, the rep who
>tried to sell us bragged at length that no one under 24 was
>allowed to appear (except in news shots, like Bush for example)
>because they believe older people have little or no credibility
>with kids. Isn't that a *dandy* idea to reinforce!

That's a horrid, but very common kind of idea of what good TV for kids consists
of.

>We decided to stick with video aids our *teachers* select and the
>supplement of CNN for news_without_rap.

Do you mean CNN Newsroom?  Have you noticed that what they think ought
to interest kids is coinsidentally identical to the kind of propaganda
that Ted Turner and Jane Fonda would like kids to be deluged with?  Just
as an experiment, try counting for yourself the percentage of CNN Newsroom
stories that have something to do with environmentalism.  I'd rather have
them watching McDonalds commercials.

--Brian
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: bcarroll@mwc.vak12ed.edu (Brian F. Carroll)
Subject: Block Schedule
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Fredericksburg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 23:07:43 GMT

Our high school is currently looking at a 4 block schedule for
next year....90 min. classes.  I would like to hear from anyone
who can speak about the transition from a 7 period day to a 4
period day.  Let me know.  Thanks.