HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Waterloo Fortran (was Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler)
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:27:26 GMT

person@plains.NoDak.edu (Brett G Person ) writes:

>underrstood them.  I had the misfortune of using , I think, Waterloo
>Fivetran.. I mean, fortran that didn't understand what those things in

I don't think anybody else in the history of computers ever called it that.
It was WATFIV (Supposedly short for WATerloo Fortran IV, but really just the
successor to WATFOR - Waterloo Fortran.  WATFIV was more like Fortran-77
than FORTRAN IV).

And then there was WATFIV-S - Structured WATFIV!  IF-THEN-ELSE, DO-CASE,
WHILE, etc.  Most of the concepts were probably stolen from RATFOR, I never
had the dubious pleasure of using that beast.

-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com or {uunet,revcan}!geovision!pt
(This is not an official opinion of GeoVision Systems Inc.)
Zen T-Shirt: Enlightenment Available - Enquire Within
 -- Paul Gillingwater (Paul.Gillingwater@actrix.gen.nz) on rec.humor.funny
From: bevan@cs.man.ac.uk (Stephen J Bevan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Indentation
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:57:14 GMT
	<BEVAN.92Aug27194834@tiger.cs.man.ac.uk>
	<1992Aug28.211538.841@dscomsf.desy.de>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
In-reply-to: hallam@zeus02.desy.de's message of 28 Aug 92 21:15:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.211538.841@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:
   In article <BEVAN.92Aug27194834@tiger.cs.man.ac.uk>, I write :
   J Bevan) writes:
   |>In article <Q8E6H9J@math.fu-berlin.de> weberwu@inf.fu-berlin.de (Debora
   |>Weber-Wulff) writes:
   |>   So adding your little hack just
   |>   blows apart all the mathematics you might be able to use in the
   |>   proof of correctness.
   |>
   |>Maybe so, but if you're not going to allow the lexer to count, then
   |>you won't be able to track the line/column and give any reasonable
   |>error message.

   Maybe so?... Absolutely not!

   If you are going to prove a compiler correct there are much more
   serious problems than minor  twiddling to the lexical analyser.

Agreed.  Given that DWW is no fool, I assumed that what was meant was
that _some particular mathematical technique_ that fell apart, not
proofs in general.  Maybe I assumed too much and DWW was wrong; only
DWW knows ...

bevan
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: iisakkil@vipunen.hut.fi (Mika Iisakkila)
Subject: Re: Flash pix
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
	<1992Aug28.082723.1@bronco.fnal.gov>
Date: 29 Aug 92 13:01:44

colombo@bronco.fnal.gov (Rick Colombo - Fermilab) writes:

>I've seen EPROMs erased, they use UV light and set the timer for 15 minutes.

I don't believe in erasing EPROMs by flash lights either, but just
crashing the computer is much easier. The sense amplifiers in memory
ICs are photosensitive, and a flash light contains more than enough of
photic energy to cause read errors at the time of flash.

The windowed EPROMs look very nice, so I wouldn't wonder if they were
left uncovered for demo occasions. When was the last time you saw an
advertisement photo of some gadget with covered EPROMs?

--
Segmented Memory Helps Structure Software
From: linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Longtime PDP-11 users, tune in now
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:44:19 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: positive

Has it ever struck you as strange that the output file
from compiling any C file goes into "a.out"?
If you stop the compiler at any other stage, the results of 
            cc foo.c

will be in:  foo.i  foo.o   foo.s  etc.

It's somewhat of a nuisance that the final binary goes into a.out 
    -- you might forget where it came from 
    -- it will be overwritten by the next compilation.

I wonder if this is a holdover from the old PDP-11 implementation of C.

Theory: 
   The PDP-11 assembler just put its output in "a.out" by default,
   and the first C compiler didn't have any easy way of communicating
   an alternative name to it.

Are there any longtime PDP-11 users who can remember details like
this about its assembler?  Is there any basis to my theory?
Maybe it even came from the PDP-7 implementation of C?
   

--
linden@eng.sun.com|| P. van der Linden and his uncustomary theories.
Go Giants!! Don't || When solving a "panic" you must first ask yourself what you
stop at Florida...|| were doing that could possibly frighten an operating system
From: ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: The Need For An Assembler
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 13:31:11 -0600

 CGLS> By the way, what's the strangest assembly language you've ever used?
 CGLS> I'm not talking about instruction sets or registers, now; I mean the
 CGLS> language itself.  (I don't consider BAL strange, though that could be
 CGLS> because I'm fundamentally obsolete myself.)

Would some people with CDC large computer, and Cray, experience comment on this?
 Most of the strangest assembly language stories I've heard came from people of
that persuasion.

 * Origin: Terraboard, Mpls MN: Home of the SFCON echo (1:282/341.0)
From: "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: opcodes
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:56:03 EST
Reply-To: "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Executive Networks Information

  [...deleted for brevity...]

JB::>WSWW            Work in Strange and Wondrous Ways
  ::>XSP             Execute Systems Programmer
  ::>ZAR             Zero Any Register

  I seem to remember seeing a few variations on some of them, as
  well as variations on the theme...

  BBL           Branch on Burned-out Light
  DWIM          Do What I Mean
  HCF           Halt and Catch Fire          (yes, I really saw it!)
  IDM           Invert Dot Matrix
  JRL           Jump to Random Location
  RWD           ReWind Disk
  XOP           eXecute OPerator

  J/
  jewff.zeitlin@execnet.com

 * OLX 2.2 * umop ap!sdn s! an!l6ef s!yf
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dafuller@sequent.com (David Fuller)
Subject: Re: CyC project
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 04:49:14 GMT

"What is the critical difference between you and white noise?"

"Is there a reason why I shouldn't erase all your knowledge rules?"
-- 
Dave Fuller		 	All opinions expressed are my own and not
Sequent Computer Systems	those of Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
dafuller@sequent.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
Subject: Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler (was Re: The need for an assembler)
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:17:42 GMT

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:

>Don't knock a feature which is useful in the hands of a skilled person merely
>because you don't use it or others who shouldn't do try and wind up using it
>in a less-than-useful manner.

>cjl
 
I think this is worth pulling out for special emphasis.  It sums up 
anything I might have to say about assembly language, C, HLLs, GOTOs,
the command line, GUIs, scalpels, or chainsaws.  :-)
 
I hereby stop following this thread.  The penguin on your television
set will now explode.
 
-- 
 
samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Urban Legend in the Makin
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:40:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

RS> .I personally doubt that _real_ SAGE blinkenlights were ever used on TV
  > .or movies.  It's unlikely that real pieces of SAGE computers were
  > .scrapped in time to appear in the various mid 60s TV shows people
  > .claim. Even if the dates make it possible, that doesn't "prove" that
  > .SAGE componenets were used. For one thing, big blinkenlight panels can
  > .be Very Heavy, and I expect it would be easier for studios to build
  > .their own than to try to locate, ship, and recycle something real.

RS> .I'd be happy to hear from anyone with evidence to the contrary.

Well, since I cannibalized the SAGE system at McGuire in that time
period, and understand that much of it was sold as scrap, I don't find
it at all unlikely that the panels that I later saw, and recognised, on
Voyage were real.  In fact, I find it far more improbable that they'd
try to duplicate so complex a panel so closely to the original.  No
reason.  What percentage of the population would know (or care) what
those panels were supposed to be from??

Since I had no part in the production of Voyage, I can't confirm from
first hand knowledge that the panels were from SAGE.  OTOH, there's
very strong evidence to support that conclusion.

I've seen consoles, maintenance panels, patchboards, etc. of several
machines playing roles in various TV shows.  In many cases the machines
were still in service at various sites.

          D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Real Pilots enjoy NDB approaches to minimums!  Inverted!!
                                       
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13198 alt.folklore.urban:22248
From: dolf@echo.philips.nl (Dolf Grunbauer)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Flash pix
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:40:44 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, E.C.H.O. development department

Talking about taking flash photo's. I once heard a story of a demo of some
sort of new computer (no details given) which has some parts in EPROM (you
know, the PROMS you can clear by shining light on its top). They had hidden
this new computer behind a curtain. When the room was filled with all kind
of news people, including photographers, they removed the curtain. On this
very moment every photographer in the room started taking his 'exclusive'
picture. But as the technicians had forgotten to seal the EPROM's erasing
windows the flash light cleared the EPROMs or at least erased them enough
to be unable to continue with the demo.

This story must have taken place at the latest in the early 70's.
-- 
   _ _
  / U | Dolf Grunbauer    E.C.H.O. Development    Digital Equipment Enterprises
 /__'<  dolf@echo.philips.nl  dolf@toet.echo.tds.philips.nl
88  |_\ mcsun!echo.philips.nl!dolf                         Was Dat voor niets ?
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assem
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:33:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

SW> .OK.  I was going to let that pregnant question hang, Zen-like, in the
  > .air, but since everyone is asking: the original (late-night) thought
  > .was that the hll was the chainsaw (less effort for the result but
  > .a less precise result) and vice versa.  Others may differ.  8-)

Perhaps both ASM and HLL are somewhere between those extremes, and a lot
closer together than these discussions would indicate?

(Anybody remember SAP vs. SOAP?  All assemblers are NOT equal!)

And besides, everyone knows that the best language is Intercal!

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Real Pilots enjoy NDB approaches to minimums!  Inverted!!
        
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)
Subject: Norman/Turn signals (was: flash pix of sunset)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:52:49 GMT

In "Turn Signals are the Facial Expressions of Automobiles," (Addison-Wesley,
ISBN 0-201-58124-8), Donald A. Norman has a very interesting essay on
flash pictures of sunsets, recording events rather than experiencing them,
etc.  He suggests that the event fanatic of the future could put on a
virtual-reality headset containing a variable-delay tape loop (or the
digital equivalent thereof) so that whenever something interesting in
your life happened, you could do an "instant replay" of the reality...
then go on living life in delay mode, with the ability to travel into
what would now be the virtual future to see how things came out by 
removing the delay...   :-)

-- 
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbsmith@world.std.com
From: newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Mark Newton)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:04:50 GMT
Organization: University of Adelaide, South Australia

In article <BETSYS.92Aug25141518@ra.cs.umb.edu> betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz) writes:
>In article <l9jbnjINN4au@skat.usc.edu> tsmith@skat.usc.edu (Nep Smith) writes:
>>>Not too long back, Burger King was advertising their Whopper; you can have it
>>>one of 1024 ways.  Now that's 2^10; what I couldn't figure out is what all 10
>>>items are.
>>>Single/Double, mayo, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onion, tomato, mustard,
>>>ketchup...
>>>
>>>What's the 10th item?  Is it something only a hacker would want?
>>The bun? 
>
>Maybe the meat? I've seen vegetarian friends order them without meat.

My vote is for the bun.  I have some friends who forgo bread due to
allergies.

You should see the look on the teen-droid's face when you ask for a
Whopper without the bun :-)

   - mark
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
         'Do not expose your LaserWriter to naked flame...'
newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au         - Apple LaserWriter Manual
------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber)
Subject: Re: Things that make you go 'Hmmmm'
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:50:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.115235.11418@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ap096@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kevin P. Dahlhausen) writes:

>So the question is, why would anyone buy an upgrade kludge - er 
>module at a cost higher than that for a new motherboard??  (for the
>386sx).  Even a new 486 board is only a couple hundred dollars more 
>than their 486slc.  

The problem is that there are a lot of machines out there that a new
motherboard wouldn't fit in.  I agree, a new motherboard is cheaper,
but for those loo^H^H^H users who bought PS/2 machines, for example,
they have no other choice.  A few PS/2s do have special even higher
priced IBM upgrade modules.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber	anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TeX and C (was: you know when you're hacking too long when...)
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 03:16:03 GMT
 <4106@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us> <snippe.714993982@boerang> <marc.715098772@vieta.math.uni-sb.de>
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

marc@vieta.math.uni-sb.de (Marc Conrad) writes:

>That reminds me to a problem, I had, when I wrote a TeX-text, which should 
>contain a compileable C-Programm (let's call it foo.c)
>My first try was: 
[...]
>Any ideas ?

Since you are not the first with that kind of problem, there are several
solutions available: tgrind (that will do a good job at prettyprinting,
too) and verbatim.sty. Check them out at your friendly neighbourhood TeX
ftp site.  There even is a web for C, if you feel you need it.

Unfortunately, I found nothing to prettyprint FORTRAN when it would
have come in handy last year, but then that's a mismatching of concepts,
anyway :-)
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: johana!tsw@apple.com (Tom Watson)
Subject: Re: Flash pix
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:05:14 GMT
Organization: FBN/GRQ Ink.

In article <1992Aug28.082723.1@bronco.fnal.gov>, colombo@bronco.fnal.gov (Rick Colombo - Fermilab) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Aug27.114044.22877@echo.philips.nl>, dolf@echo.philips.nl (Dolf Grunbauer) writes:
> > Talking about taking flash photo's. I once heard a story of a demo of some
> > sort of new computer (no details given) which has some parts in EPROM (you
> > know, the PROMS you can clear by shining light on its top). They had hidden
> > this new computer behind a curtain. When the room was filled with all kind
> > of news people, including photographers, they removed the curtain. On this
> > very moment every photographer in the room started taking his 'exclusive'
> > picture. But as the technicians had forgotten to seal the EPROM's erasing
> > windows the flash light cleared the EPROMs or at least erased them enough
> > to be unable to continue with the demo.
> > 
> 
> So this EPROM was sitting on top of the computer mugging for the camera?
> Sounds like real folklore to me, but at least it's in the appropriate place.
> I've seen EPROMs erased, they use UV light and set the timer for 15 minutes.
> 

The problem with flash & EPROMS is that the read amps (or something like that)
are photo-sensitive.  For the duration of the 'flash' they go bonkers (like
those technical terms).  After that, they recover and are none the worse for
wear.  If your inbedded system doesn't have some time-out, or watch-dog timer
you could be in trouble for having a program (C, Pascal, Fortran, or Assembly)
going off into the hinterlands.

Why do I know about this??  It happened to me.  We put more opaque covers over
the EPROMS after that (the ones that were silver colored seemed to work best).
And told the picture taker not to take any more pictures.  Usually the closing
of the case will cure most problems, and was recommended to us later.

Live And Learn!!
------
Tom Watson
johana!tsw@apple.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: sykhor@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Sek Yong Khor)
Subject: Re: Apple /// (and MANY other computers)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:19:26 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
Keywords: antique

I've been going for the lite ones for the past couple of years ..
A couple of handhelds and caculators, etc:

Yeah, now for a partial list of show n tell,

	HP41C,CX HP11C, HP27S, HP75D (commin soon)
	CASIO PB770, PB1000, PB2000, PB110, FX5200, FX750
	SHARP PC1500
	TI-74
	Sinclair Z80, Spectrum

Plus a collection of many more; most all of the eqipment were collected
back home in Singapore from shop close-outs and friends, I only brought 
along my trusty 41CX and 48SX(not an antique, obviously) to NA. 

Now that someone has brought up this subject, I wonder if there's a
swap meet ....... I'll be there!

Just my $.02

BTW, how much is apple I valued at now ... $10,000 ?


Peter KHOR
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com (Don Nichols (DoN.))
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:12:33 GMT
Organization: D & D Data

In article <1992Sep1.224833.27021@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>In article <jimf.715288047@centerline.com> jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:

	[ ... ]

>>The MS-DOS operating system has undergone several major changes that
>>cause software incompatibility.  Recently the changes have only
>>introduced minor incompatibilities, but that was not so at the
>>introduction of MS-DOS 2.0.  A program written to MS-DOS 1.0 isn't
>>efficient under the newer versions of MS-DOS (I'd be surprised to find
>>that it would run at all, actually).
>
>That's totally true, and it's a good thing that Version 2 came out so fast
>so we wouldn't be futzing with 1.x anymore.  You might notice that virtually
>every program since the days of the PC Jr require DOS 2.0 or higher.  The only
>stuff that requires 3.0 or higher are programs that need to talk to 
>high-density disks, which weren't introduced until version 3.0.  In any case, 
>no incompatibility occured.  More importantly, no major reprogramming issues
>ever arise from these upgrades, rather issues come up outside the venue of
>the vast majority of programs, such as the maximum size of a system's
>partitions, etc., and are only in the province of the system itself.  The
>Norton Utilities are a good example of the exception you are addressing:
>they have had to be upgraded a lot as the system grew, but no applications
>that generally work are undergoing anything like this.

	You may decide to not call this an application, but SYTOS (a
tape-backup utility), which was purchased with, and ran on a Zenith 248
(286-based machine) under Zenith MS-DOS 3.2 broke under Zenith MS-DOS 3.3+.
The '+' signals a change which allows larger partitions, and this system was
running with a single partition occupying a 80MB disk.  SYTOS would back up
individual named files with no complaint, but when it was asked to back up
the entire hard disk it thought for a second or so, and then complained
"Cannot back up network files" (or something similar - it has been a while,
and I no longer have access to that machine.)  Needless to say, there was
*NO* network attached to the system.

	It was confused by the differently-formatted FAT, which was made
necessary by adaptation to larger partitions on the hard drive.  Presumably,
later versions of MS-DOS would have the same problem with this version of
SYTOS.  IF this isn't an incompatability, I don't know what is.
-- 
Donald Nichols (DoN.)     | Voice (Days): (703) 704-2280 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
D&D Data                  |  Email: <dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
I said it - no one else   |         <nichols@nvl.army.mil>
	--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
From: malmberg@umsa8.umd.edu (Norwin Malmberg)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: 26 Aug 92 01:29:43 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Maybe they meant no meat?  (veggie whoppers?)

You can get a whopper without the meat - I actually saw someone do it once.

(Seems like a waste to me, though.)

Norwin Malmberg
malmberg@umsa.umd.edu
From: ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Graphics systems
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:27:14 -0600

 >>Graphics computers have been shipping since 1976 (Apple II).

 CL> PDP-8/e VT-8/E option since 1974.

I played with a couple of PDP-8/Ls with analog storage tube graphics subsystems
in 1969 or maybe even 1968.  They were a DEC product; don't remember the exact
model designation any more.  Can somebody help?

I got hooked on my first video game on them.  I've recently written that game
for a PC, and I'm interested in getting the model number for the historical
explanation that'll go out with the program.

This was at Carleton College in Northfield MN.  The game was TARGET.  Anybody
out there happen to have played it?  I don't think it ever got distributed
elsewhere.  I'd also be interested in checking my implementation against other
memories of the original.  And if anybody happens to know who actually WROTE the
original I'd love to know that, too.  Is Jeff Hoskins or Bill Greenberg out
there somewhere?

 * Origin: Hardware maintainer for the lackeys of literature (1:282/341.0)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers