HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: name from the netherlands???
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:07:47 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Oct01.165018.21741@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Lindorm wrote:
>
>> "Lundgren" is a blatantly modern definitely out of period common Swedish
>> surname.
>
>I'm curious: How do you know that it is only a modern surname?  Do you know
>it's origin?

	Well, if I might take a stab at this -

	The language used in the name is Modern Swedish, not Old Norse or
even Old Swedish.  If the equivalent surname existed in period the spelling
would have to be archaicized back out of "Lundgren".
	Additionally, in period Scandinavia (as with many places) there
really weren't surnames, of course.  Surnames eventually began to make some
headway among the nobility, oh I forget when, but it was pretty late in the
middle ages.  Most everyone kept patronymics down to the mid-19th century.
	In period, "Lundgren" or it's period equivalent would be a
by-name/nickname in all liklihood.
	Offhand, I don't know the "gren" part (I would say "green" but
that's so obvious it might well be wrong :).   The "lund" part means grove,
so it might be ?Greengrove?
	"Gren" would most likely be spelled different in period, and there
might be grammatical ending that are lost in Modern Swedish floating around
too.

	These are just my best guesses - I'm afraid I haven't got any of my
references here with!

Cheers,
Karl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 18:37:32

 JTD> He is active and encourages others to emulate him in 
 JTD> participating in a wide
 JTD> range of activities.  To lose our Baron would be a crime.
 JTD>   Of course I do live in Carolingia, and Baron Patri is Carolingia...  
 JTD>   Please do not remove the good or the excellent with the bad.

 I once met and danced with your delightful Baron at a Worldcon Georgette  Heyer Regency Tea -- ask him if he remembers the redhead in the watered green  dress with the gold tights who had the tererity to teach him the end dance to  Hole in the Wall at Noreascon II.

 -- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA description
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:34:43 GMT
Organization: The Internet


Here's a thought for the one-line description of the SCA: 

	The SCA -- interactive historical fiction

This sounds better than "The Middle Ages as they Should Have Been",
since that opens up too many "should have beens".  It allows more
leeway than calling the SCA a historical recreation group (which we
are not).  And it's less vague than some reference to "The Dream" (as
if there was a _single_ such entity).  

Comments?

Fujimoto
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: horse enhancements, the element of fiction
Organization: University of Toronto -- Office of the Provost
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:11:44 GMT

In article <9210041200.aa05594@mc.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:

>These things were done in the 1800's by hand; anyone know anything about
>Medieval horseshoes?  (toecaps are also good for protecting a hoof from
>hard and lumpy terrain.)

The artist of the Luttrell Psalter seemed to have a keen interest in
horseshoes, and illuminated them in some detail.  The shoes depicted include
shoes with cleats, and with various protrusions.  Since these appear on
cart-horses as well as war-horses, however, I would consider them to be
designed for traction and footing rather than offencive value.

In a conversation with a horse maven last night, I asked whether all these
fancy horse kicks could be dated to the early 14th century (when the
Luttrell Psalter was painted), and she thought not.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: aragorn@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Mooney)
Subject: How to simulate a castle siege at home
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 06:11:23 GMT


HOW TO SIMULATE A CASTLE SIEGE AT HOME

1. Surround yourself with a few people you don't like.

2. Close all your doors and windows tightly, close curtains.

3. Unplug all radios and televisions to cut yourself off from any news,
football games, Saturday Night Live, The Muppet Show, Star Trek: The next
Generation, Ren and Stimpy, etc.

4. Seal any openings to the outside world with a proper sealant.

5. If using bathroom, do not flush toilet for the first couple of days to
simulate the smell of a garderobe, flush weekly.

6. Wear one T-tunic only.

7. Wake up at odd hours of the day and night and stare at a picture of a
landscape to pretend you're standing guard duty.

8. Prepare all food wearing a blindfold, this will duplicate what medieval
cooking was like.

9. After normal hours of television programming are over, watch one show or
movie that you have seen at least a dozen times before, just like listening
to the same bardic story over and over.

10. Throw out all medicines since none would be available.  Practice surgery
on your dog if necessary.  (Dentistry, surgery, death)

11. Restuff your mattress or waterbed with straw.  Changing it is not allowed.


12. Before sealing your house, bring in one mutt that is coated in fleas.
Allow it to stay for three hours. By the end of the second week you should
have the proper flea population living in your rug and your armpits.

13. Cut a hole in your roof and occasionally toss a few rocks at your
neighbor.

14. Dump toilet water on anyone who comes to the front door.

15. Bring all pets indoors and refuse to change the litter.

16. Drink only from either collected rainwater or water that has been
standing in your sink for a couple of days.

17. Take absolutely no showers or baths for the entire period.


        This simulation will run for at least 3 months, with no end in
sight.  If you can do this, your're crazier than the rest of us.


Aragorn
.......
-- 
aragorn@wixer.cactus.org or    | He's dead Jim, I'll take his tricorder you
aragorn@thumper.cc.utexas.edu  | take his wallet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyberspace?!?!? what's that? (he says as he reaches for his deck.........)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: a "hair raising" question
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 18:28:52 GMT

In article <MOSS.92Sep30010349@CRAFTY.cs.umass.edu> moss@cs.umass.edu writes:
>Undoubtedly there were times and situations when a lady could go with her hair
>uncovered. I am not familiar with the details, though I think distinctions
>were typically made based on the marital status of the lady (always covered if
>married, etc.). This certainly makes the question of hair style easier!
>
>Yours in service --  Aell Aethelwita, called Ellethel; Barony of Bergental (on
>sojourn in Barony Marche of the Debateable Lands); East Kingdom
>--
Usually umarried young girls and reigning queens or princesses of any age
could wear unbound, uncovered hair.  I'm not sure why queens and
princesses could, but might be able to find out if anyone's curious.  After
a while it became a turn-on for a married woman to wear her hair
down and loose, since ordinarily only a husband would see her hair like
that.

Enid Wrigglesworth

 > >J. Eliot B. Moss, Associate Professor	Visiting Associate
Professor >Department of Computer Science		School of Computer Science
>Lederle Graduate Research Center	Carnegie Mellon University
>University of Massachusetts		5000 Forbes Avenue
>Amherst, MA  01003			Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3891
>(413) 545-4206, 545-1249 (fax)		(412) 268-6767, 681-5739 (fax)
>Moss@cs.umass.edu			Moss@cs.cmu.edu
>


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG)
Subject: Armour requirements -- Women
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:11:57 GMT

Good Gentles, 

It has been suggested that the only way to meet the armour requirments
for the chest for women is late period or full breast plates.  The
Society armour requirements are:  

Armour and Weapon Standards
4.Body, Shoulder, and Groin Armour
  d.  For women, breast protection in the form of a gambeson shall be
      worn as a minimum.  Separate brest cups are prohibited unless
      connected by or mounted upon an interconnecting rigid piece, 
      i.e. heavy leather or metal breast plate.
Taken from the Society Marshal's Handbook  1992 edition.

If there are kingdoms that require more protection then this, I would
think that what ever is considered legal protection for the kidneys
should be legal for a women's breast.  For example, if a Visby coat of
plates meets the requirement for a man's kidneys, then the same style
of armour should meet the torso requirements for women.

In Service,

Palymar
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Newborn Event Clothes
Date: 28 Sep 1992 17:38:02 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Master Bertram asked:

>So, what does the week-dressed 3-week-old wear to her first event?

My daughter's first event was when she was a bit older - about 6 weeks.
My wife, Lady Alexandria van de Zilverkat, made a nice dressing gown of
linen and wool.  And,  as it was an event in Germany in early June, we
took a few warm blankets to ward off the chill in the early morning and
late afternoon.

Her first Pennsic was later that summer.  It fun being able to tell
folks, "She's 5 years old.  This is her 6th Pennsic."

For reference, she's the little one whose christening was held on the
meadow below the bathhouse 6 years ago.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Subject: Re: Barons and their removal
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:14:39 GMT

While the Norman based system for Baronial appointment was from the top down,
the traditional Irish system was bottom up.

Note that I am equating the Irish Ri to a Norman Baron as the lands and
people them controlled were effectively the same.

Admittedly, some areas kept the title and job within a single family for
generations. Nevertheless, some areas rotated the title between families
on a regular basis.

Also note that the expression bottom up refers the the significant noble
families within the lands of the barony (i.e. tuath). The whole populace
were not polled. However, a barony (tuath) could be expected to support
roughly thirty nobles familes which is a good approximation to an SCA barony.

I might suggest that even the Norman kings could be persuaded to modify their
proposed nomination for a Baron by the voiced but unrecorded opinion of the
lesser nobled holding land within the Barony.

The mistake SCA folk keep making with respect to elections is that they
equate the SCA populace with the period peasantry. Equating them to the
lesser nobility, whose opinion matters, would (IMHO) be a lot more accurate.

I am not sure how the Norsemen in general selected their leaders, but the
example of Iceland suggests that it was more bottom up than top down, at least
in early period (still with the limitation that only landownder counted).

Finally, while I accept that Good Baron's tend to improve with age, I worry
that the Barony will become so focused on the Good Baron that it will collapse
utterly when the Baron eventually goes away. The black side of term limits is 
that it ensures that noone ever gets that good again and the we continue to
reinforce the US cultural goal of flattening the highs and the lows into a
mediocre mush.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Requiring membership to play
Date: 30 Sep 92 02:53:28 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House

In article <1992Sep30.120235.1@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> pols055@csc.canterbury.ac.nz writes:

>Arval suggests that the main reason for requiring membership for fighters to
>authorise is so that the Society is certain to have a waiver for them, this
>being important because without the waiver the Society is open to lawsuits if
>anyone, either participants or non-participants, SCA or non-SCA gets hurt by
>the activities of fighters....

>Question: what then is the argument in areas (such as NZ - I'm not sure about
>Europe, Australia, Canada etc) where such suits DO NOT HAPPEN.

>I'm beginning to get the impression that decisions are being made which affect
>the SCA around the world, where circumstances differ tremendously, without
>these differences being taken into consideration. 

If you join an American club, you play by American rules.  This includes
subsidising an American insurance policy which you won't need to use in order
to get sites, and (for most of the world) mailing off American dollars to
get a newsletter which is primarily concerned with kingdoms based in the
States.  If it's worthwhile to you, then you do it -- like subscribing to
other American publications.  If it's not, then don't.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: ... "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waivers
Organization: University of Toronto -- Office of the Provost
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:02:03 GMT

Anybody know when the Little Father started to be called the Tsar and
Autocrat of All the Russias?

Aryk
From: pols055@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Expensive Armour
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:34:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: csc.1992Sep30.113418.1
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

tck tck tck, where are you people buying your steel? ;-)

Here we have judged that the steel, bar etc that goes into a round top (12g on
top, 14 around the sides and they still get dented in top) costs us about NZ$
20 (thats about US$ 10!!!) And I never heard that NZ was the worlds ceapest
spot to buy steel. Twcs, I hope that your US$ (i assume) 150 helm is real
pretty (not that I can really talk - I'm swopping my Popeye-forearms boyfriend
a helm for a gambeson and arming cap : I can't shift 12g and he's afraid of
sewing machines.

But seriously - does _everyone_ buy their armour or is it just a large portion
who have the money to do so?

Cheers, Eleonora van den Bogaerde, Southron Gaard, Caid.
Simone Hindin, Christchurch, New Zealand.
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Melee combat, Midrealm Crown Lists
Date: 28 Sep 92 04:40:10 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <920923161543_71431.167_EHJ42-2@CompuServe.COM> 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG) writes:
>Greetings good Gentles from Palymar,

Greetings from Arenwald to Palymar, and any others who
might read this.


Palymar says:
>5) If it isn't any of the above, have _it_ look _you_ straight in the
>eye,    _then_ hit it.
>
>that if my opponent tells me he did not see me before I struck, then I
>tell them they are not dead.

Hmm. Really realistic!

It seems to me that you are letting the rules really
stuff up recreation of any sort.

If you hit him, you hit him. If it was hard enough he is dead.
END OF STORY!!!

Arenwald von Hagenburg.
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Linen and wool
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:02:22 GMT
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


"Real linen is rather expensive, but 'linen look' cloth, which is 
available in many fabric stores, can be used instead. The 'linen 
look' material is much cheaper, and is usually a linen/cotten 
blend" (Robert of Ferness)

In my experience, the term "linen" is used both for fabrics made 
out of flax and for fabrics with a certain sort of texture. The 
latter are usually not linen cotton blends but synthetics or 
synthetic/cotton blends. Linen cotton blends can be found and are 
nice, but, at least in the areas where I have lived they are not 
what is usually labelled "linen."

My impression is that if you have access to a good fabric 
district, such as NY or Boston, you can often find real linen or 
linen cotton blends (or silk linen blends) at not unreasonable 
prices--i.e. $2-$5/yard. I think our record for linen is $1/yard, 
once (in New Orleans).

David Friedman (Cariadoc)
DDFr@AOL.com
DDFr@Midway.UChicago.Edu
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles - "technical" question
Date: 30 Sep 92 02:55:17 GMT
Distribution: rec.org.sca
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House

In article <CANTON.92Sep29210202@robinson.ilog.fr> canton@robinson.ilog.fr (Eric Canton) writes:

>I have heard that upward pentacles symbolised the spirit, whereas downward
>ones were evil.

>What's weird is that I saw a downward pentacle embedded in the ironwork
>gate of one of the small chapels in the Sacre Coeur de Montmartre 
>(very famous catholic church here in Paris, if anyone doesn't know).

The rose window over the door to the south transept of St. Paul's Anglican
Church on Bloor Street in Toronto is favoured with the same pattern.  I am
told it is not uncommon on English churches, but generally in the north
transept.

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Plumage
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 22:35:54 GMT

[...In response to my dilemma about covering spiffy armour with
a good tabard, Carolus wrote:]

      You wear *both*...Nothing is as foppy as covering something
      gorgeous with something even more gorgeous. May I suggest a
      Torse and mantling in colours to match your tabard? Cheap,
      easy to make, keeps the sun off your helm and looks
      extremely snazzy.

Well, of _course_ I'm doing torse and mantling! It's just that elbows
and knees have priority at the moment :)  Hey, and didn't you forget
to mention the crest?  Hmmm. About the tabard - I'll do it, but not
with the tabard I've got. I'll wait until I can do a surcote in silk
(more authentic for my style of armour) and keep the tabard for my
combat archery gear (mark I).

      It's also really easy to make sweats and shirts in your
      colours to match your mantling set, or little braided
      tassels to hang from your sword hilt, and camail, or....

A lot of this sort of stuff is planned for the Mk II version of my
armour, as I learn armouring and can concentrate on detail. (as an
example, I now have made my pot-helm. When I have time I shall start
on a bascinet)  
 
      Use your imagination. A long time ago someone lectured
      me about wretched excess. My conclusion was that it
      sounded like loads of fun.

Well, phoey to them! Nothing exceeds like excess!

     Yep, looking good on the field is the second most important
     responsibility of a fighter;-) Fighting well being the
     first.

For a fighter, yes, but for a fop, looking good should take priority
over fighting well ;)  (safety and honour come in above those two
of course, unless that's what you meant by "fighting well")

(I refer you to my motto; "Form ever precedes function")

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Linen and wool
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:42:41 GMT

When you break flax, you get linen fibres and tow, if I'm not mistaken.  Tow
was commonly used as a padding fibre, a wicking fibre, and in various other
mediaeval applications.  And now is the time of year when you can get tow
in almost any North American or European city.

All the Orthodox Jews in your town have to go out in the days after Yom
Kippur (which is next Wednesday) and buy, among other expensive supplies,
a citron.  A perfect, unblemished citron, with the base of the flower still
intact (if ever a flower was there).  In order to keep these citrons (called
an etrog or several etrogim in Hebrew) from being damaged in shipping, or
while being carried to and from the synagogue, they are packed in tow.

Ask at your local Jewish bookstore, and find out when they plan to toss out
the extra tow that people haven't taken to fill their personal etrog boxes.

Aryk
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentacles - "technical" question
Date: Sat,  3 Oct 92 13:55:55 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Sam'l Basset writes:
>
>         Pentacles as symbols of occult power go back a century or so
> farther, to the middle of the 19th Century -- see the works of "Eliphas
> Levy" in French -- the are probably available in the Editions de Poche
> series, and will certainly be available in used bookstores of the
> theosophical sort . . .

Francis Barret's "The Magus," written at the end of the 18th century and 
the beginning of the 19th (published 1801) makes references to pentacles
as symbols of power:

   It is always necessary to have this pentacle in readiness to
   bind with, in case the spirits should refuse to be obedient,
   as they can have no power over the exorcist while provided with
   and fortified by the pentacle [...]

He states, in his preface, that his work is "collected" knowledge,
garnered from older sources, but I can neither confirm nor rebut his
claim.

So the origin has been pushed back another fifty years; still out of 
period.  Anyone have an older source?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re:One Oh
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 03:51:00 GMT

I'll sing you Six, oh
Green grow the rushes, oh!
What is your Six, oh?
Six for the Six proud Servants
Five for the Symbol that's a chore; and
Four for the Picture Makers
Three, Three, the Pillars
Two, Two, the genders true
Clothed all in rules-o
One is the forum all alone
That's known as the Rialt-o!

(verse seven tomorrow)

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.