HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robear@access.digex.com (Robear)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: religion vs. philosophy
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 6 Jan 1993 22:19:32 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <725810221.AA08775@urchin.fidonet.org> Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:
<some deleted>
>No matter the origin, a code of ethics is a philosophical statement and
>not inherently religious.

My point was that this is a pretty modern view, and certainly did not
apply when the ethical codes of most martial arts were created.  You can
look at it this way, but that is not the way the founders intended these
codes to be seen.  Consider how we are told that martial arts sets the
tone for one's life.  This is more a religious thing than a straight
philosophical attitude.

In order to determine whether a code of ethics is inherently religious,
we must consider the situation of its' formulation.  Without that context,
it could be anything, true...but almost all martial arts spring from a
religious context, so their codes are inherently religious.
>
>RO>Philosophy of "spiritual aspects" of things is, to my mind,
>RO>inseperable from some religion.  I can't think of any martial arts
>RO>with spirtual aspects which is not cloely tied with some established
>RO>religion.  Thus any philosophies derived from these arts are just
>RO>religious ideas taken out of context...
>
>There are many "religious" ideas that are not particularly appealing.
>The injunction, "God's on our side", has been used throughout the ages
>to send men into battle -- by both sides!

Ah...I never said the religious stuff was appealing, just that it was
there.  Anyway, this line of argument is not germaine.  It is akin to
claiming that martial arts are aggressive because someone once used them
to start a fight.
>
>RO>Non-religious moral philosophy is a relatively new development;
>RO>martial arts are old.  I don't think your analysis is correct.
>
>It depends upon your definition of religion: one can call any
>obsession a religion. In that context, one could say that some Martial
>Arts are a religion.
>
Very true.  I am using a more narrow definition which includes the 
established religions, and not the wider one you speak of.
>If one's behavior is honest and forthright, it makes no difference to
>society if the motivation was religious, philosophical or came out of
>Cracker Jack box.
>
Also true.  I just didn'
t (stupid ' key in the wrong place) see why we should ignore the origins
of martial ethics just because religion is sometimes a crock.

> X SLMR 2.1a X "Religion is the opiate of the people..." Karl Marx
>
Marxism is the opiate of the intelligentsia, maybe?  :-)

	David Pipes
robear@digex.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: NINJUTSU
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:38:46 GMT

In article <7197.897.uupcb@meaddata.com> jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy)  writes:
>Ah, but Steve, it's even worse than you think.  "Jo" is a feminine fore,
>as opposed to "Joe" which is masculine.  So...I am female.
>                                                                                                                            
	I suspected this... so, uh... wanna get hitched?


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: Car Jack
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:05:18 GMT

Oops.  Let's try that again!  I'm not even sure how that happened.

In article <1ig4ceINN6mn@mirror.digex.com> curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.091245.29619@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>>My life (and anyone else's) is more important than the law as it
>>pertains to gun restrictions.
>
>If you do carry a gun and you end up
>using it to legally defend yourself, it might save your life; and if
>you've been really good, you just might get someone like me on your 
>jury.  It only takes one not guilty out of twelve to acquit.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought it took twelve not-guilties.
Inability to come to a unanimous verdict results in a mistrial, not
an acquittal.  Is that wrong?  (Talking about US law, of course.)

Anyway, Confucius says: "It is better to be judged by twelve than to be
carried by six."

OK, it wasn't really Confucius...

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: satadd00@nx14.mik.uky.edu (scott andrew taddiken)
Subject: Re: Judo
Summary: Olympic Judo is not totally divorced from the principles of judo.
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:18:59 GMT

Several people have posted about the deterioration of judo.  They say either
that there is too much emphasis on competition, or that the competition rules
have been modified in such a way that "good" judo is no longer the way to win.

Several years ago, in France, a coach had an idea.  He took a seasoned handball
player (a formidable athlete), and in a very short time, taught him how to keep
from being thrown, and how to _look_ as if he were trying to throw.  Besides
that, he was basically on his own.  This fellow won the French Nationals.

This may seem damning, but I still say that there is room for "good" judo in
modern competition, and that one can win with it.  I insist on playing an erect
style (shizen hontai) of judo, and have had a few minor successes.  Making the
quarters of the University Nationals, I suppose, made me most proud (the
bracket had 30+ players of fairly high quality, European Pool system).

Think of players who play the edge of the mat, who stiff arm, who bend at the
waist, who do _incredibly_ vigorous throws to achieve small points as a
challenge to the principle of "Maximum Efficiency, Minimum Effort".  Try to
find ways to prove them wrong.  For reading material, see _Fighting Judo_,
by Kashiwazaki, or _Know the Game Judo_ by Gleeson, among other works.
Also, watch the masters of what now is tournament judo on videotape (or in
person, if you can).  Van der Walle, Koga, Parisi, Yamashita.  There is 
extraordinary grace and creativity in their movements that I hope one day to
emulate.

Remember, it was Kano himself who made the initial push to get judo into the
Olympic games.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Meaning Behind Style Names
Date: 13 Jan 1993 01:01:25 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com

In article I6s@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:

>>Gojuryu = go + ju + ryu = "hard" + "soft" + "style".
>
>That's not Japanese, is it?  I thought ryu in Japanese means "dragon."

Ryu means dragon. Ryu means system (as in a school system) as well.

There are many homophones in Japanese. It is a wonder they can understand
one another. Tatsu also means dragon as in the Judo term, Tatsumaki Jime.
This Dragon is also called a "waterspout" as dragons were associated with
the sea as well as the sky.

Other usuages included: Ryuko; which means "Dragon vs. Tiger". This has 
two meanings, one is "Battle" and the second is "Battle". (No, I'm not 
being cute.) The 1st meaning is the battle between individuals, one who 
fights for the right reasons vs. one who fights for the wrong reasons. 
The 2nd meaning is the struggle of the personality - the good side over 
the bad side, or the side of bravery over the side of fear. Both meanings 
play important roles in the higher teachings of MA. 

Dragon is the symbol of Heaven (BTW).

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply
From: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RE: NINJUTSU
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:37:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 

Well, Mr. X, your reference to a stage was appropriate, since it seems
your view of the ninja is, even as a joke, taken from movies.  In fact,
I'd go so far as to say that anyone who claims to teach ninjutsu and who
insists upon secrecy is a total fake who really has no knowledge of the
history (political, cultural and spiritual) of the art he claims to
teach.

But I realize you were making a joke....
From: renault@CAM.ORG (Pierre Renault)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: pinyin
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:06:06 GMT
Organization: Communications Accessibles Montreal, Quebec Canada

OK, this should be fun...

an "x" is a mediolingual mute fricative consonant.

a "j" is a postligual mute non-aspired occlusive and non aspired fricative.

Easy, no?

Of course, that only applies in Beijing mandarin...
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tmoody@sju.edu (T. Moody)
Subject: Book Review desired
Organization: St. Joseph's University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:03:34 GMT


I have seen advertisements for a book entitled, I think, _Okinawan
Karate_, by a man named Bishop (Michael, maybe).  Sorry about the
vagueness, but I am wondering if anyone is familiar with this book and,
if so, would they recommend it as an accurate, thorough, source of
information?

-- 
Todd Moody * tmoody@sju.edu  (That's St. Joseph's Univ., Philosophy Dept.)
            "In what furnace was thy brain?"  -- William Blake
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cc@cowan.fishkill.ibm.com 
Subject: Re: Shaolin 5-Animal Style
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 22:04:13 GMT
Distribution: york
Reply-To: cc@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: Pough, NY


In article <1993Jan5.201701.29982@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs922096@ariel.yorku.ca (JOSE J. MONTANO) writes:
|>     As some may remember, I inquired some weeks ago about the actual name of
|>"Shaolin 5-Animal Style" Kung-Fu.  I meant does it have an name like Choy Lay-
|>Fut, Hop Gar, Wing Chun, etc., or is it just Shaolin......?
|>     Thanks for all the replies.......
|>     I have confirmed that the style taught at the school I am looking into IS
|>advertised as Shaolin 5-Animal Style, so I am now asking if this is a 
|>combination of various kung-fu styles, or a separate style.  

External Kung Fu styles are generally categorized as belonging to
either the Northern or Southern families.  The Northern styles
are older and are the basis for all of the "External" styles.
Typically (but not always), the inclusion of the word Shaolin
indicates a "Northern" style.  I'm sure there is a Chinese name for 5
Animal, but for some reason the English name is widely used in the
west.

The other styles you mention in this post are all Southern, I believe.
Unfortunately, things can get very confusing because styles like Choy
Lay Fut and Hop Gar clearly draw from the Northern systems.

I have no way of verifying this, but I have heard it said that there are
hundreds of styles of Kung Fu.   (I have also heard that there are an equal
number that have been forgetten!)  It shouldn't be suprising that there is
quite a bit of confusion. 

Hope this helps.
--
Chris Cowan 

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Mail to me (was Re: Stephen Chan E-Mail?  Sorry, folks.)
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 15:27:58 GMT

In article <28270@dog.ee.lbl.gov> TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan) writes:
>I tried to reply yesterday and got back "user unknown" to
>your schan@birch.srg.af.mil address.  Do you have another
>internet address I can use?

	Just an FYI: my mail address is going to be changed as of today (Friday
January 8) - please send mail to sc1u@andrew.cmu.edu

--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Escalation
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:24:36 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan6.165107.6240@aber.ac.uk> azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward) writes:
>>    I never leave my house without my buck knife, and I see no point in
>
	[pardon me while I reshuffle the response...]

>So if you pull a knife, things get very serious. 

	Ayuh.

>I'm not convinced this is a good idea. You can expect your opponent to escalate
>to at least the level of armament that you display. 

	Probably true, however, anyone whose brain functions, does not display
	their weapon.  Dipslay of same is tipping your hand, which is generally
	not thought of as good practice, particularly when the situation becomes
	serious enough to warrant weapons.

	By the time your enemy realizes you have a knife, he should already be
	dead.  Games with knives and the sort should not be played half way.

>Better to learn the practice and mindset of improvising
>a weapon from things to hand as required.

	I would not say better, but I agree that it is indeed a very useful
	skill.  I see no problem with carrying a weapon on a regular basis,
	but in the case where you are not able to or you get caught short,
	knowing the principles that make up the art of the naked kill can
	certainly mean the difference between life and death.
>
>
>The First Law of Combat has to be the Law of Superior Firepower:
>  If he has a knife, you need a gun. If he has a gun, you need a tank. If he
>has a tank, you need an A10 etc.

	Here, again, I will pick a small but IMO significant semantic nit.
	Not superior FIREpower, but superior power, period.  This is a bit
	broader and certainly leaves far more open to you in the way of
	options.  Superior firepower will not always prevail.  Supeior power,
	with all that the term implies, will, almost without exception.


	-Andy V.
From: Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: toolbox
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 10:15:00 -0500

BS>...So now I'm looking for another toolbox with harder, more basic
BS>tools that work together better than the TKD tools do.

Any MA is only as good as its practitioners. There is no "best". If one
fits your needs better than another, then that one is best for you.

To digress, I don't think you'll find many TKD dojangs teaching
Dora Chagi (spinning kicks) as a good response to a real-life combat
situation. Most teach that Dwit chagi (back kick) is sometimes a
vilid counter to an overhand attack as it removes the target and
places a weapon between you and your assailant.

Peace in our time,

Tom Stovall

___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Preemptive defense...when I hit you first

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Having to be hit three times
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:44:19 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <C0Ftx0.4HM@wilber.rich.nt.com> bwebb@nrchh129.RICH.nt.com (Brad Webb) writes:
>
>>ssammy@cs.strath.ac.uk (Paul Sammy 4th Year iE/CES) WRITES:
>>
>> hmm, I was staying with a friend over the holidays, and her sister is in the
>> British Army- I was told that someone had to be struck 3 times before
>> retaliation could be construed as self-defence.
>>
>
> I had heard the same thing about eleven years ago.  It was used by a judge
>in an Illinois trial for a policeman using excessive force against an 
>assailant.  The assailant was using a baseball bat, the officer using his 
>fists, the officer was a black belt in an unknown martial art.  The judge 
>said that the officer should not have hit the suspect after the suspect 
>swung the bat the first time.  The  officer should have waited "until the
>third time."    
>
>Only heresay, from eleven years ago.
>
>B. Webb, dallas, tx.

Police officers are under a higher standard than the rest of us when it comes
to use of forc, as a general rule.  Furthermore, this judeg
may well represent an extreme viewpoint on the use of force. It is still
true in common law, in general, that yuo do not need to be struck before
you are allowed to defend yourself.  In fact, being struck is the difference
between assault and assault and battery.

But what really matters is the standard of the community and how much lawyer you
can afford.  No matter what the law is, if a jury decides to acquit you, 
you're free and nothing can overrule it.

Charles Yeomans
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: "Oriental dancing"
Date: 7 Jan 1993 02:47:42 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan6.121419.9822@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>
>Funny, based on what most people experience when they encounter "martial arts"
>with respect to real fighting(tm), I can't really blame a bunch of freelance
>soldiers for their opinions.
>
>One thing I can never get over is westerners prejudice towards the east, esp.
>
>Sidebar: A couple of years ago, the U.S. and 25 other "developed" nations
>participated in a normative math exam.  Korea came out number one, the U.S.
>came out dead last.  The student participants in the exam completed a survey
>pertaining to their perception of their math ability as well.  On the survey,
>the Americans overwhelmingly reported that they were excellent at math, coming
>in number one at having the highest opinion of themselves.  Surprise surprise!
>Korea came out last.
>
>*Mark my words: there is someone out there saying to themselves that my 
> comments are "anti-American." Indeed.

Not "anti-American," just grossly uninformed.

Did it ever occur to you that not every country is as committed to providing
every student an education as America is?  I've been in Korea, and I can
tell you first hand, that the bottom few rungs of students don't get
to our equivalent of junior high.  Sure. American schools lose
students before high school, but at no where near the numbers that other
countries do.  None of the "dummies" [should I be saying intellectually
challenged?] and many of the normal students never make it into the test
populations in these other, so called smarter, countries.  That's the
reason for test score differences.  

[[    Flames deleted   ]]

The only evidence I see of our lack of smarts is the fact that we keep
doing for the rest of the world.
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Qi-gong
Date: 6 Jan 1993 07:21:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

eng10193@nusunix1.nus.sg (YEE BOON CHEOW) writes:

  + Hi people.
  + Just have a question that i have been wondering since i started
  +practising the art of Qi-gong.
  +
  +  How does one know whether he is doing the correct method of practising
  +Qi. I have heard and read many instances whereby people gets injured or
  +insane just because they practised the art wrongly.

Well, in accordance with those stories, the stock answer is to
practice under the guidance of a good teacher.  If you are a
novice and practice on your own, by the time you figure out that
something's wrong, it'll probably be too late.  Besides, if you
do blow it, you probably want to know someone you can contact
right away to (hopefully) reverse the effects.  Another reason
to get to practice under someone.

Terry Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division   | Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory      | 
Berkeley, California  USA  94720  | Yeah, right.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: M.J.Wright@massey.ac.nz (M.J. Wright)
Subject: Re: Hapkido
Summary: weapons used in one style of Hapkido
Keywords: Hapkido
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 00:53:16 GMT

**snip question on weapons used by various hapkido practicioners**

In our style of Hapkido (taught by Lee Jung Nam, a director of the Bong Hwa 
Gynasium in Korea) the primary weapons are knife, short stick and 
cane/umbrella.  However we also train with the belt, handbags with straps,
coins, and pens.

The short sticks used can vary in length, with longer sticks being more suited
to strikes, and shorter sticks more suited to throws/grapples/pressure points.
Rolled up magazines can be used as short sticks.

Ultimately, I believe a Hapkidoist should be prepared to use anything handy.
Stilleto heels have obvious uses, chairs are good defensive weapons, and
throwing something solid at someone should distract them enough to help you
either get away or close to grapple (if thats appropriate).

Malcolm Wright
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: johnrp@well.sf.ca.us (John Panzer)
Subject: Any Wado dojos in Florida?
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:29:04 GMT


Has anybody heard of a Wado dojo in the Sarasota, FL area?  I'm
going to be there for 2-3 months and it would be nice to keep
in practice.

John Panzer
johnrp@well.sf.ca.us
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Question: Street Defense
Date: 6 Jan 1993 08:36:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

I am soliciting comments on this situation.  Begin position:

		A ------------------X
				    |
				    |
				    |
				    |
				    |
				    |
				    |
				    B

Both A and B approach point X in a straight line, aware of each other and the 
others' speed.  A varies his/her speed to avoid collision with B.  B does just 
the opposite.  If A speeds up, B speeds up to make collision.  If A slows down,
B slows down.  At the very last moment A speeds quickly to avoid collision.  
End position:

				X A (facing ->)
				B   (facing towards X)

At this point in time B shouts at A and/or takes a menacing posture.  Others 
see that B's move is effective(in some sense) against A and repeat it.

To speak in less formal language, being A is no fun at all.  I consider B's
actions a form of assault.  How about letting B bump me and "knocking his/her 
xxx on the ground".  What if B doesn't bump A but stops at the last moment and
menaces and shouts at A?  I would like to take some action. 

The problem is, folks, that if I let people get away with this kind of xxxx 
they and others repeat it, often. Opinions ? 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: erlingp@stud.cs.uit.no (Erling Paulsen)
Subject: Stretching
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:02:49 GMT


Does it really help with one of those fancy stretching machines one can buy?
Isn't good old stretching just as good, if you put your mind to it?

OSU!
Sempai Erling
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts