HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive Firearms
Date: 24 Dec 1992 06:38:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dickeney@access.digex.com (Dick Eney) says:

>RE: Primitive Firearms
>
>Golly, has everybody forgotten that Brother Berthold's dire
>invention was certainly known in period, since the English used
>cannon at the battle of Crecy?  And the final clashes in the
>Hundred Years' War were settled by cannon -- the final fight in
>Normandy, for instance, was won when a couple of French culverins
>arrived and started potting the English from beyond bowshot.  (The
>fight was a little more complicated than that sounds: the English
>charged the cannon, the French infantry mixed it with them, and the
>whole tangle rolled back onto the English lines.  With the archery
>thus neutralized or their fire masked, the French cavalry closed
>and delivered a decisive charge from melee range.)  The first brush
>of the War of the Roses was also an exchange of long-range cannon
>shots across the flooded Stroudwater (I think it was) before King
>Henry VI put in an appearance and York's troops -- who had been
>told that Henry was dead and they were enforcing the claim of the
>rightful heir -- started to desert.
>
Not to mention things like the Hussite Wars, which were in period.  The
Hussites, religious rebels in Central Europe, used firearms extensively
from wagon-circle formations like in the Old West.  They chose firearms
precisely because a peasant recruit could be taught how to use one in a few
days, while to make a good man with knightly wweapons, the then theory was
that you had to start with his grandfather.
-- 
It is caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.  It is through beans of
java that thoughts acquire speed, that hands acquire shakes, that shakes
become a warning...I am...IN CONTROL...OF MY ADDICTION!
---From the Minicon Graffiti Wall, 1989(?)
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period calendar; Nonfighter kings; Drachenwald ideas
Date: 1 Jan 93 10:13:30
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se's message of Fri, 1 Jan 1993 16:11:06 GMT


vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
] Dennis O'Connor suggests that rulers be chosen by:
] >Civil War. This could be great fun. Monarch wanna-bees would go out
] >and solicit fighters for their cause. Then a series of battles would
] >be fought,
]
] Neat concept. However, I think that it would be less a matter of non-
] fighting wannabes soliciting fighters, than of fighters banding
] together to champion a popular person whom they wanted to make King.

I don't think you'd get fighters spontaneously banding together.
More likely respected Knights, Masters, and Baron(ess)s would decide
who they would support, and bring their Squires and followers with
them to their side. If this were not they way most fighters chose
who to support, it would still probably be how most war-trained
units decided. And units that train together for war are usually
more effective man-for-man than random collections of fighters.

Of coure, a side affect of this interneccine warfare would be
a general rise, I think, in war-making capability. A kingdom
that chose it's monarchs by war would probably be more potent
when engaged in inter-kingdom war than one that did not.

[ WRT long reigns ]
] I do not believe that such long reigns would be possible with the
] present style of rulership. It would require a different role for the
] monarchs, with fewer duties. As has been pointed out, ruling is both
] expensive and tiresome. If a reign was 3 years, we would need a very
] developed royal administration to take some of the burdens off the
] King & Queen.

Except that I feel the primary duties of the Monarchs is to get
around, visit their domain, see that their Kingdom is healthy
in every corner of it. By having a single couple do all this
visiting, a cohesive vision of the Kingdom can be aquired. I
personally don't feel that sending ministers out quite accomplishes
the same thing. So I'd rather we had short back-breaking reigns
rather than long figure-headish ones.

] A mechanism for unseating bad Royalty without resorting to nasty
] stuff like Courts of Chivalry or Board action, should be possible
] to invent. For example, we could have an annual Civil War where the
] King summons all his people to put down all rebels, with the
] provision that if the King loses that war, he also loses the crown.
] A popular King will of course win, and retain the throne; if the
] people are not satisfied, he will be ousted.

I like this, but think it should be more often. But then, I'n
from the any-excuse-for-a-war camp.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Fighting for Crown..Another question.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:42:08 -0500

Gwydion ap Myrddin (00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum)) asketh:

 MJS> Have _both_ members of a prospective Royal couple 
 MJS> ever entered a Crown list?

If memory serves, the lady who recently became Queen by right of her own arms
fought the final bout against her own consort.

 MJS> Or is this explicitly ruled out?

Maybe in some kingdoms, but I've not heard of any.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: D020214@univscvm.csd.scarolina.EDU (Cecily de Catton)
Subject: Saints' Days
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 19:34:46 GMT

Is it too obvious to put in a reminder that some saints have more than
one day?  An outstanding example is John the Baptist, whose feasts are
June 24th (his birth, the principal day) and Aug. 29th (his death).
(Penguin Dictionary of Saints, 2nd ed. updated and rev., p.187.)  It's
quite true that the feast day for a particular saint may vary from
country to country, but sometimes the difference between England and the
rest of Europe, if you use a modern saints' calendar, is because the
Book of Common Prayer calendar is a little different from the standard
Roman Catholic one.  (If anyone out there can give me a concrete reason
for this, I'd be grateful.)     Also, maybe it should be mentioned that
no one day of the year is the day of only one saint.  Even Christmas day
is also the feast day of Saint Anastasia and of St. Eugenia. (See the
calendar section of the same ed. of the Penguin Dictionary, p. 352.)
To make matters worse, when a saint's day clashes with something else,
say Sunday, it can be transferred to another day by the proper authority.
There are two other possible complications.  If there is more than one
saint with the same name, and the dater didn't include a distinguishing
epithet, it can make identification difficult.  Because canonization as
a formal process exclusive to the Vatican only dates from the reign of
Pope Alexander III (who died in 1181), even the Roman Martyology, which
is the official Vatican list, approved in 1584, doesn't have every saint.
 Before 1181, local bishops could canonize, and there are always local
culti which are traditional but which have never actually received
official approval.
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: On the nature of light blows and too light blows
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 11:25:03 GMT

In article <921226041151_71431.167_EHJ44-1@CompuServe.COM> 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG) writes:
>I do not object to that kind of research.  In fact, I believe that some
>research was done on this subject several years back.  It used a suit
>of riveted mail (the society standard) draped over a pig (deceased).  
>The results were, if my handed down information is correct, that the
>force required to pierce that mail was less than what was the
>standard some 11 - 15 years ago.  

Your Grace,

I believe that the tests were held many years ago by Duke Andrew of
Seldom Rest. The results got printed up in the Hammer. The article is
printed in one of the volumes (I forget which) of The Best of the
Hammer, which is published by Raymond's Quiet Press.

	These are the results as I remember them from the article. 

A pig carcass was draped with a piece of padding, then a layer of thick
leather, then a layer of riveted mail. The whole mess was then attached
to a tree, so it couldn't get loose. A "standard" swing of a broadsword
didn't damage the armor much, but did break ribs underneath the armor. 
A thin bladed spear went between the links of the mail, through the
leather, padding AND the pig and stuck in the tree behind. OUCH.

	The consensus of the observers (Duke Andrew and Sir Polidor
Haraldsson, the editor of The Hammer are the only ones I can remember)
was that SCA blow calibration (ca. A.S. X or so) was sufficiently
powerful to breach period armor. 

	If people are sufficiently interested, I can scrounge up the
article and give a more accurate synopsis.

Lothar \|/
        0
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Tadhg's ten word blazon test
Date: 24 Dec 92 23:39:02 GMT

In a message to All, Graydon wrote:

 G> Greetings!
 G> Tadhg, are you advocating blazons that only work well in the
 G> Anglo-French style?

    Yeah. Do you have a problem with that? (Many do... that's why I'm such 

    a popular guy...)

 G> While I agree that short blazons are a good sign, I have to
 G> wonder about all the things in Rhiechstap (sp?) that use
 G> field divisions that just plain don't exist in the
 G> Anglo-French terminology.  It's pretty hard to argue that
 G> German heraldry wasn't a common practice! 

    But it still wasn't spoken of in polite company ... (Oh, sorry, I  

    promised Bruce I wouldn't do that any more.) The point is that the  

    "core" of our "period" is Anglo-French. If more people took German  

    personae, then perhaps I would be willing to consider German practices  

    less eccentric, in an SCA context. I'll bet that if you took a gander  

    at the Armorial you would find more Norse names than German, by a  

    factor of about three. (Looking at the Armorial, one would think that  

    Wales and Germany had swapped surface areas -- not to mention  

    Scandinavia and Iberia...)

 G> Or are you arguing that we should only use those elements of
 G> style that all the major heraldic art styles had in common?

    Works for me. 8-)


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 25 Dec 92 06:41:00 GMT

"B>  From: "Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz" <ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu>
"B>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
"B>  Pittsburgh, PA
"B>
"B>  Good people, I recommend me to you. Tadhg writes:
"B>
"B> T> One of Laurel's oft-repeated maxims is "We follow the general
"B> T> practices,
"B> T> not the exceptions", and red bends and chiefs on blue fields were
"B> T> exceptions, not general practices; considered in the context of
"B> T> western
"B> T> European heraldry as a whole, regional practices such as green
"B> T> mounts on
"B> T> blue fields, however much they may have been the height of fashion
"B> T> in
"B> T> Hungary or wherever, were still exceptions rather than general
"B> T> practices.
"B>
"B> T> I have made a modest contribution in that directio with my "Ten
"B> T> Word
"B> T> Blazon Test", the rationale for which is "if they did it a lot,
"B> T> they had a
"B> T> term for it; if it takes you a lot of words to describe it, then
"B> T> they
"B> T> didn't have a term for it, and so they probably didn't do it a lot,

He means like "azur, a chief gules"? "Azur, a mount vert"? Seems to pass his 
test just as neat as a pin, to me.  :-)

"B>  What the rules are there for is to make a herald's job easier for
"B>  judging
"B>  a submission as a period design. If the submitter gives evidence to
"B>  support
"B>  a different period standard, then that device should be accepted and
"B>  maybe
"B>  a rules change is in order.

Amen, Esmeralda. Especially when the "exception" meets his own "rule" of 
good style.  ;->

Moreach NicMhaolain
No herald in particular...

Nollaig chridheil, agus blaidhna mhath ur...
(Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year)

email replies to:trifid@agora.rain.com
email to fidonet will go unanswered
From: kate@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Kate Sanderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Spinning
Date: 29 Dec 92 01:08:40 GMT
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.

Ilaine mentions "The care and feeding of Spinning Wheels" by Karen Pauli. 
A nice bonus about that book, (so I've been told, anyway) is that Karen 
Pauli is a sca person!

                                    Kasia
From: jshuman@koko.csustan.edu (Jeremy Shuman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Home-brewing techniques
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:44:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CSU Stanislaus

My brother is a member of the SCA and wants information about approved methods
of brewing beer, ale, mead, etc. Any information is appreciated. Send replies
by e-mail. Thanks In Advance.

-- 
     --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
     | I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm  |
     | not sure that you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.|
     |                      Standard Disclaimer                          |
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: non-fighting rulers
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:41:53 GMT
	<1993Jan3.170200.19888@news.unomaha.edu>
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu's message of Sun, 3 Jan 1993 17:02:00 GMT


dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf) writes:
] I am not at all sure that being royalty is "the appropriate reward" for
] all excellence.  I simply feel that, as (arguably) the highest station to
] which one can rise, it ought to be open to those who excell in *any* area,
] rather than only one particular one.  One can attain a peerage, after all,
] through excellence in any endeavor; why cannot one likewise aspire to the
] throne similarly?

In my own renownedly humble opinion, and meaning no disrespect at
all for current or former Crowned heads, I personally have am more
impressed by the titles Knight, Master-at-Arms, Laurel and Pelican
than for royal titles.

You become King, Queen, Princess or Prince by virtue of a single
tourney of excellence. You become Duchess, Duke, Count or Countess
by service to the SCA for one or two reigns. On the other hand, Knight, 
Master-at-Arms, Laurel and Pelican are usually given in recognition 
of years of dedicated activity. So these non-Royal peerages seem
to me the more valuable achievement.

Of course, all the Royal peers I know are also members of at least
one of the non-royal Peerages. Which seems probable, yes ?

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New PicDic
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:59:36

 This day have I received my "helper's copy" of the new edition of the
 Pictorial Dictionary. It was well worth the wait.

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Non-fighting Royalty
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1993 23:34:16

 REH> I am not concern about the prospect of a fighter championing a
 REH> non-fighting couple.  I think it would be a healthy change to the
 REH> system, and at the same time give more people 
 REH> access to the throne.  I
 REH> do not believe that such a change would produce any better rulers.  
 REH> Being a non-fighters does not give you an exclusive insight on how to
 REH> rule a kingdom any more than being a fighter does.
  I think there was a (somewhat naive) undertone in some of the earlier 
 messages that assumed that the fighter who did such a thing would 
 select a couple that he/she felt had proved good leadership in some 
 other area.  However, I don't see that as any more likely than the 
 possiblity that the fighter would have made a good leader himself. So, 
 it would just open up the crown to more individuals, not necessarily 
 give us any better leadership....
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pwr@jab.tucson.az.us (Patrick Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA Forums
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 02:42:50 MST
Organization: Just Another Bbs. Tucson, AZ

Greetings unto all upon the Rialto:
 
I am curious as to whether there are any other message forums which are 
SCA specific.  If so, please provide me with forum titles.
 
Volfred
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tadhg's ten word blazon test 
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 05:07:32 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  > So, what was pre-Anglo Celtic Heraldry like ? Beats me :
  > they probably didn't have any.

The theme of most heraldic writers seems to be that heraldry as we know it 
didn't come into existence until after the preaching of the first crusade at 
the end of the eleventh century.  (Hence, I assume, the start-date for 
Tadgh's preferred definition of period.)

If anyone knows otherwise I'd love to hear of it.  Similarly if anyone can 
tell me about seals, banners, or other insignia used before "heraldry".

Pagan le Chaunster
Southron Gaard and Reannag Fhara
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG)
Subject: On the nature of light blows and too light blows
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 04:11:51 GMT

Carolus Wrote: "I am extremely interested in a *real* test, and am
   planning serious investigation of hat constitutes a real "good" 
   blow, and comparing that to an SCA "good" blow.
   My hypothesis is that we probably *average* hard enough, but that
   many people hit far too lightly to damage, and many hit heavier
   than they need to.
   It is obvious that you do not feel this research to be of use.  Why
   not?"

I do not object to that kind of research.  In fact, I believe that some
research was done on this subject several years back.  It used a suit
of riveted mail (the society standard) draped over a pig (deceased).  
The results were, if my handed down information is correct, that the
force required to pierce that mail was less than what was the
standard some 11 - 15 years ago.  

Even if this was not the case and the research indicated that we all
needed to hit like Conan to do any damage, it would not change the way
I throw blows.  Nor do I think it should.  I feel I hit hard enough as
it is.  If I were to increase my average blow strength, then I would
begin to endanger my opponent.  This is true for any fighter.  If you
increase your blow strength, you put your opponent at greater risk of
injury.  I don't know what is taught to other fighters, but the first
lesson I was taught was: 'I am primarily responsible for my opponents
safety'.

Carolus also wrote: "No, but the body language of the attacker is one
   of the many indicators that form the gestalt of 'blow delivery'.  No
   spectator can accurately judge blow force, but *any* knowledgable
   spectator can tell when a blow is begun."

I disagree.  My experience, gleaned from about 100 hours of fighting
video, tells me that the spectator can rarely tell when a blow starts.
I recall when I first viewed myself on video.  I was amazed that I
could block all those shots that were thrown at me.  It was only after
spending too many hours analyzing the fights in slow motion that I
began to truly understand the 'gestalt of blow delivery'.

Carolus continues: "All good fighters try to mask (or decieve with) 
   their body language.  nevertheless, if you simply saber at me, you
   will have an awfully hard time getting any force into your blows."

Agreed.  But I do not do saber shots.  My blows start from my
shoulder.  They _can_ hit very hard (I choose not to) and they give no
more warning then what you would call a saber flick.

Carolus adds: "The armour was worn for a reason: to shed blows, and
   require an opponent to hit you harder to damage, giving you an
   advantage (until he got equal armour, of course)

We must all remember the Society standard: A halberk over padding with
boiled leather arms and legs.  Someone who has better armour in the SCA
does not get an advantage.  They are still required to accept strength
of blows that would damage through the Society standard; even if they
are wearing Maximilian fluted plate.

-Palymar


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: wesommer@Athena.MIT.EDU
Subject: testing distribution.
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:16:55 GMT


DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.  
Thank you.

				- Bill
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: GRUENKE@ksuvm.ksu.EDU (Ivan Pietrovich Pevcov)
Subject: SCA geography
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:57:00 GMT


Recently our new friend John Doucette said:

       "When I was talking with some friends in the SCA I mentioned that
I'd like to form a Roman Cohort or a Highland Regiment.  They pointed out
that those two organizations were outside the period, one a few hundred
years before, the second a hundred years after."

My friend you have been misinformed. Despite rampant rumor and avoidable
avowance, THERE IS NO EARLY CUT-OFF TO OUR PERIOD.

 The rules of our game are expressed in Corpora. There it is written that
 what we do should be prior to the 17th century. Nowhere does it say we
should be after some date.


Some of my best friends haven't been born yet.

Ivan Pietrovich Pevcov                        Joel Gruenke
Shire of Spinning Winds                       Kansas State University
Calontir                                      Manhattan Kansas
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:04:34
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org's message of Sat, 26 Dec 1992 22:16:50


Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
]     Gwydden Lawen wrote:
]
]  G> But the nice thing about that society is that it isn't fixed,
]  G> that individuals can easily change it ...
]
]     We Better Sort consider that a bug, not a feature.

One of the essential differences typically seen between Western religous
and "scientific" dogmas is that the religions tend to have man starting
at some perfect state and getting worse, whereas the "scientific"
dogma has man striving to reach a better state from a humble beginning.

Now admittidly, things shouldn't be too "easily" changed. But being
a "scientific" kinda guy, I believe that the Society must "adapt
or die", as they say. Especially as part of a rapidly-changing world.

Of course, those who believe they are "Better" than others, uh,
well, don't have any opinion that interests me, actually. I hope
Tim was jesting about that bit.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com