HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: huajima@buengf.bu.edu (Jim Huang)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: vk bashing and all that
Date: 17 Aug 92 01:27:38 GMT
Reply-To: huajima@buengf.bu.edu (Jim Huang)
Distribution: usa
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Listen Ken Dowzycki it's alright for you to express your dislike for a 
certain style of drum corps and even imply that the style is not
"REAL DRUM CORPS" but that is only your opinion. Don't confuse it
with some God given truth. I was in the Bridgemen and I got up
every morning and practiced late into the night just like members
of any other corps. We were not as talented as BD or SCV but we did
our best. I take personal offense in your trivializing the effort I put
into my drum corps experience. Please apologize in this newsgroup.
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: jvbutera@grad01.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Subject: Re: Videotapes, where to get them
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:00:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.195729.22477@s1.gov> truher@s1.gov (Joel Truher) writes:
>
>Does anyone know where I send my $$$ to get video of finals?
>(this year, last year, other years, &c.)
>How can I write to DCI the organization?
>
>Joel


DCI Stuffola... can be found thru DCI at 1-800-344-2772 or

PO Box 548
Lombard IL 60148-0548
-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers! 
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: truher@s1.gov (Joel Truher)
Subject: Videotapes, where to get them
Organization: LLNL
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:57:29 GMT


Does anyone know where I send my $$$ to get video of finals?
(this year, last year, other years, &c.)
How can I write to DCI the organization?

Joel
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: muchachos
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:07:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

ck10322@china.medtronic.com (Cameron Kaszas) writes:


>As was Garfield, for that matter, which explains why they could win
>VFW in 1976, beating 4 DCI finalists, and then didn't even make 
>finals themselves.

>You'll need to find some DCI scores for the Muchachos
>before I buy into your theory :)


You are quite right, VFW shows and the ilk were not the same as
DCI shows back then.  However, it would seem that the Muchachos were
consistently 2-4 points behind the Bridgemen and Garfield that year
including at the World Open two weeks earlier (again not a DCI show).
My point is that wherever the Muchachos went into a DCI sanctioned
contest in 1976 they were KO'd whereas Garfield and Bridgemen stayed
pretty much constant.  I know because I was there.  Yes, Garfield did
win that VFW show that I presented and failed to make DCI finals two
days later.  (The scores that I posted were from prelims, I think Cavies
won finals).  Maybe Garfield should have made DCI finals?  If I get
a chance I will go back through my old Drum Corps News to see if I
can find more examples, I have them stacked in boxes from 1974 until
it folded (DCN).  
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: streuer_d@cubldr.colorado.edu
Subject: LOSE THE POLITICS
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:27:24 GMT

All this talk of 'fix' and bias judging for the finals is very perplexing.
I'm under the assumption that the posts are coming from individuals that
have had the opportunity to see a majority of these corps more than once
and, of course, have some history to speak from in regards to consistency
with each corp.

From earlier posts, I could see discussion of 'X-Corp' improving or 
'Y-Corp' needs to fill holes or change this or that.  Sure, this means that
each corp is in a state of transition hoping that their Finals show will
be letter perfect.  No doubt, Judges see this shaping taking place also and
also get an idea of which corp continues to improve or maintain their
quality.  With this in mind, I believe a trained viewer could just about
'predict' (with all things considered over the season) which corp COULD 
bring in the solid performance.

In lieu of the above, and having not seen any of the competitors except
Blue Devils in person, I believe that the Cavaliers gave the best performance
for THIS competition.  It's no different than being an athlete, ie. girl's
gymnastics.  They do the same thing over and over and practice and practice
and judges know who is doing well.  But when it comes to the Olympics, it's
the one who did what had to be done at the time who wins, speculation aside.

So please, remove the paranoia from this and give credit where credit is due.
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Who judges the guard??
From: cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:36:36 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


Does anyone know where the guard is judged at in the captions?  Is it visual or
GE?  Or both?  I know the Devils won Outstanding Auxilarly, but was there
someone actually judging just the guards, or were they judging the guards,
drill, staging, etc...?

And, how much is the guard worth in that caption?  Are they worth all of the
visual points, or half or maybe 5 points in the GE?

What is up with the guard?  Who judges them?

IRC nick-BlueDevil
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: VK bashing & DC North
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:30:56 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis) writes:


>>>>>Why all the VK flaming? Granted, they are not the "best" corps out there, 
>and yes, they are not STAR, or the Cadets, but is that a good enough reason to 
>rake them over the coals? I always thought that drum corps people were a
>little more open minded than that! There is alot of people out there that
>find VK very entertaining!  Sometimes it's refreshing to see something 
>different out there. Most of the other corps are pretty much doing the same
>thing, what's wrong with taking the "fun" side of the activity out on the
>field. It's not like they work or practice any less than any other corps! 
>I've stayed in the same school with VK a few times in the past, and they've
>proved that it takes just as much work to be goofy and silly as it does to 
>be serious! They worked very hard on the drill and music, and then added the
>silliness.. 

>	If you don't like them that's your opinion, but it's still a
>drum corps, and I give credit to any drum corps for doing what they do! 
>I really don't think ripping apart everything they've done is necessary!

>  I'm not blaming anyone for their opinions, I just think the flame was a 
>little harsh!


   Well since you chose to join this thread after my follow up you
did not answer my question.  What have they contributed to the activity?
Is your answer "fun"?  or "different"?  Magic is different.  Troopers
are different.  You don't really expect me to buy that a gorilla 
peeling a banana with a girl inside or the guard  using bananas as
if it were a rifle is as difficult as getting ten people to throw
triples or quads do you?  You don't really expect me to believe that
the "dancing" that VK does is as "much work" as what the other guard's
engage in?  Do you think carrying a pole with a huge head on the end
of it from the back end of the field to the front for a minute or two
is as difficult as tossing a flag at a windy show.

   Yes I do think ripping apart everything they do is necessary 
especially when people try to push them across as actually something
to be admired, applauded, defended, let alone legitimate.  Who ever
said that this belonged on the drum corps field?  You wan't to see
this stuff, watch a Coors commercial or the Super Bowl hoopla?  
IF you want to watch a drum corps show, check out Star, Cavaliers,
Blue Devils, Madison Scouts, Cadets, Phantom or Santa Clara.  The
difference is between chicken salad and chicken shit!  If this
makes me closed minded, so be it, especially where VK in concerned.
From: dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: PBS broadcast, net get-together
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:16:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle


More thoughts on the PBS broadcast.
A plus I didn't mention that Bill mentioned is the indication
of what music was being played as it was being played.  It's
virtually impossible to be able to recognize all of the different
styles of music, and so having it spelled out was a good touch,
especially to newcomers.

Now that I think about the broadcast, I probably would have put
Cadets and Madison 1st and 2nd (not sure about the order), Star/Cavies
3rd and 4th, and BD 5th (or even Phantom 5th).  There was just so much
difference between being there and watching it on TV, it wasn't even
funny.  Roughness in the musical presentation was totally lost in the
broadcast.

One minus about the broadcast was that whenever they had a low shot
(field level), you got the reflection of the lights on the backside
splashed all over the screen so that it was difficult to actually see
what the camera was pointing at.


The net get-together was fun.  It certainly beat the two person net
get-together in Dallas.  The mythical "Fath-ster" is no longer some
abstract Netter, but actually a real person!  I missed the meeting
at 5:30pm on Friday, as I was browsing through the Expo and forgot
about it.  Who showed up at 5:30?

-- Donald
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn)
Subject: Re: DCI Politics (I hate DCI Admin.)
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 01:30:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.201534.1961@medtron.medtronic.com> ck10322@china.medtronic.com (Cameron Kaszas) writes:
>JUDGING CONSPIRACY? NO WAY!!
>
>Aside from that...
>These people (judges) give decades of their lives to the 
>activity.  They would not devote so much time and effort
>only to be told how to judge.  The judges I have met
>really care about the kids, and the betterment of the
>activity, and would not stand for what you are saying.
>

I agree.  This is the most compelling evidence.

>Now, I'm not saying that 
>there are not personal biases for particular styles,
>and maybe even (but rarely, I'd suggest) towards individual
>staff members, etc., but that a conspiracy for or against
>a certain corps is really ridiculous in my opinion.
>

Again, I agree.  There probably are personal biases, but a
mass conspiracy does seem unlikely..

>I would suggest that the reason there is so much flip-flopping
>is because EVERYONE IS SO GOOD.  I think that just as we all
>disagree with who should have won, so do the judges, and with
>different judges there will be flip-flopping.


>
>If there is (unorganized) politics, I think it's seen by the the
>lack of flip-flopping throughout the season, when maybe by peer
>pressure, some judges will hesitate to put corps A above corps B
>because corps A hasn't beaten corps B yet, etc.

This is perhaps the most sensible thing I've seen about judging
so far on alt.drumcorps.  Corps vary in performance.  Judges vary in
tastes and in what they see.  A *lack* of flip-flopping seems to me
the most improbable scenario.  This is why an undefeated season is
truly a great accomplishment (of course, this just means that when
a corps *does* have an undefeated season, the conspiracy theorists
will raise an eyebrow ... or two).

-- Donald
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater)
Subject: Re: Finals.....
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 14:42:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.011954.15794@ncsu.edu>, jvbutera@grad01.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera) writes:
> What my big question is did both the Cavied and Garfield really
> perform their shows much better in finals to warrant a 1.8/1.7 point
> increase from Quarter Finals?  

Having been in Madison I'll try to answer these questions:
  
IMHO, Cavies were better in semi finals than finals...you could feel the nerves
of the guys in the corps, especially by the poor performance of the
guard in finals (especially the drop when the guard was featured on the
50 yard line).  The horn line, however, sounded good in finals and the drill
was better in finals than in semis...but you could feel the tension in
the corps performance.

Cadets were much improved in finals than in semis...this corps really cranked
through their show.  I was at a bar in Madison after finals (full of DCI
people...people in Madison were overwhelmed!) and the general consensus
was that Cadets were on and should have taken the show...but after coming
in second the past two years it was time for Cavies to win.  I'd like
to see the telecast and see how the TV portrayed each of them.  The improvement
they made in their show in the last two weeks was amazing...which of
us netters put them second???

Star, from where I was, had a bad show...they seemed really off.

The best performance of the night, in my opinion, was by Madison....you
could just feel the energy coming from the corps...I thought they should
have passed the Devils. 

Tom
---
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Scores from DCI Nationals Quarter-Finals.
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:24:27 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Thursday, Aug. 13, 1992.

1.  Star of Indiana     96.4
2.  Cavaliers           95.7
3.  Blue Devils         95.3 tie
3.  Cadets of BC        95.3 tie
5.  Madison Scouts      93.3
6.  Phantom Regiment    92.1
7.  Crossmen            91.5
8.  Santa Clara         90.9    OUCH!
9.  Blue Knights        90.3
10. Velvet Knights      87.7
11. Bluecoats           85.6
12. Freelancers         84.1
13. Glassmen            84.0    The theory runs true?
14. Sky Ryders          82.8
15. Boston Crusaders    82.4
16. Spirit of Atlanta   82.0
17. Marauders           80.0

18. Dutch Boy           77.5
19. Troopers            76.1
20. Colts               75.5
21. Magic               74.1
22. Southwind           73.6
23. Black Gold          72.9
24. Northern Aurora     71.1
25. Carolina Crown      69.7
26. Mandarins           67.8
27. Kiwanis Kavaliers   65.4

The top 17 compete again today.
From: R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re:  Drum Corps North--Gordon Henderson
Date: 13 Aug 1992 09:55:10 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article 1262 of alt.drumcorps, bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Brad Halls)
wrote:
 
>The horn line has improved by leaps and bounds since I saw them last.
>Gordon Henderson (marching band director at UCLA) really has got them
>playing by out of their minds. (Sorry again, Vince).
 
Hey, no reason to be sorry.  El Gordo is at his best when he is teaching
a corps horn line.  It's where he belongs.  My complaint with him is that
he is not an appropriate person for a non-competitive, school spirit
organization like a Division I University Marching Band.  I have the
same complaint about Gary Lewis, the Director of the U of M Marching Band.
They should both forget what corps do in the summer and play rock 'n' roll
for the students and show tunes for the alumni and play them LOUD!
 
Set soapbox=off
 
In article 1264, michaelw@cco.caltech.edu (Michael Wang) wrote:
 
>If anyone knows any of the results of the Div. II/III prelim and....
 
What, no one brought a laptop with a modem to Madison :-) ?
 
Vince
 
(I'm working on a better sig than "Nuke the Judges!")
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Glassmen Brass may have been shafted
From: cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:53:10 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


I was looking at my caption sheet from semi's and noticed something that might
add fuel to the proverbial fire.  The Glassmen may very well have been put in
13th by politics, as has been speculated by many on this group.  While I was
looking at the scores, I noticed that the Glassmen's overall Brass was tenth
and their GE Brass was fifteenth.  This sounds very low to me.  A tenth place
Brass should get a GE score higher than fifteenth.  Sounds fishy, what do you
all think?

IRC nick-BlueDevil
From: cogwynn@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Individual and Ensemble Scores?
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:10:54 GMT

If anyone was at the individual and ensemble competition this week in Madison
and has some placings, especially in the percussion categories please post
them or e-mail them to me
Thanks
Chris O'Gwynn
cogwynn@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: koreis@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Koreis)
Subject: DCI Broadcast
Reply-To: koreis@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: pnw
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:59:40 GMT
From: bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F)
Subject: Re: VK Bashing & DC North
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:04:20 GMT

In article <BtABrG.CoH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mmcneill@duchamp.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Michael Mcneill -Visualization) writes:
>In article <HALL.92Aug17084959@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu> hall@cs.uidaho.edu (Kelly Hall) writes:
>>In article <Aug.14.15.26.32.1992.4506@andromeda.rutgers.edu> dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki) writes:
>>
>>   >Sure, none of the sections is a dominant force in the corps from
>>   >year to year, like, say, that drumline that took high drums in
>>   >'80,'81,'82 from.... gosh, was it the Bridgemen? But so what?  
>>
>>
>>     '80  27th and BD were robbed
>>I disagree - the Bridgemen played a great show at finals.  I was blown away
>>by 27 in prelims but Bridgemen had the better line.
>
Note: this is not meant to be a flame, but the Briegemen drumline should
never, repeat never have won drums. As good as they were, there were many
other lines during those years that should have thoroughly (sp?) trounced
them. In '80 it was Spirit; in '81, Vanguard without a doubt; and in '82
it was a toss-up between BD and SCV.

IMHO: The '81 Vanguard drumline was surley the best ever to hit a football
field. That line had no peer.

>Actually in 1980 it was Spirit's line that was robbed.  They tied Bridge in 
>overall score, but the judges used the GE score to break the tie.  Naturally, 
>Bridgemen had the higher GE score and so they won High Drums.  Float was 
>teaching with Spirit then and the line was incredibly clean.  Remember ticks? 
>Spirit's line had 2 in finals that year! 

Tom Float always said that the '80 spirit line was the best he ever taught;
None of his lines at devils ever reached the same level of intensity...
(which we were never too glad to hear).

--Brad.



-- 
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Brad Halls                                "Still looking for witty quote."
Computer Science Grad Student              -me         
Oakland University
Rochester, Michigan
bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
From: bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu (HALLS BRADLEY F)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: DCI Semifinals and Lose the Politics (Glassmen in 13th and Boston in 14th)
Date: 21 Aug 92 05:14:29 GMT
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.

In article <15274564@um.cc.umich.edu> R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu writes:
 
>>There it is!   Thanks to George Rapp's posting of the breakdown from
>>Semi's we can all see that glaring 7.5 for the Glassmen's field
>>percussion score that was nearly a full point under everyone else
>>above them, yet only a tenth behind in ensemble percusssion? That
>>did it?  It only takes one judge?  Why is he so out of sync with 
>>all of the other Glassmen's scores across the board?
> 
>Glad you noticed that, too, Ken.  Yes, I'd like to know who that
>judge was, too, and his evidence for his score (I liked tick
>sheets better for that).  Glassmen 13th in ensemble percussion
>and 12th in GE Percussion and 17th (!) in field?  I'd also like
>to see some recap sheets from other competitions to see how
>other judges rated their field percussion performance.

I hate to dampen the spirits of any Glassmen fans, but their
drumline was lucky not to have gotten 27th in ex. drums, much less
17th. The whole corps went through a metamorphasis this year,
but it was like the drumline got left behind. They got some effect
brownie points for the big drums in the opener, etc. but they
were just awful on the field, and had no real difficulty in their
show. Just my opinion, of course...

--Brad.



-- 
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Brad Halls                                "Still looking for witty quote."
Computer Science Grad Student              -me         
Oakland University
Rochester, Michigan
bfhalls@vela.acs.oakland.edu

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
From: jvbutera@grad01.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Stadium sites will and have sucked!
Date: 18 Aug 92 11:57:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.

In article <1992Aug18.040514.19452@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sradeker@nyx.cs.du.edu (scott radeker) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.161800.1@vax1.umkc.edu> cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>>
>>My point is that the fans pay lots and lots of money to see the
>>championships and regionals.  
>Well, Madison can't have sucked too bad, because they had a record
>crowd on finals night.
>
>
>>In Kansas City, you give everyone the chance to see the finals, because of it's
>>central location (Boston?  Think there will be an abundance of west coast fans
>>there?).  
>
>KC is centrally located geographically, but not if you take into acount
>population density.  Then cities like Nashville, Jackson, Cincinatti,
>St. Louis are the most centrally located places.
>

Okay, I completely agree with the fact that finals should be somewhere
"centrally" located so that the corps and fans travels are fairly 
"equal" (?).  However, what is the problem with holding a occasional
finals in Boston (for instance)?  My point- (and you'll probably disagree)
next to the Crusaders we don't have many big corps and true DCI shows.
We have plenty of DCE shows in New England, and I enjoy the smaller corps
very much (march in one) but I think all corps fans like to see the "Big
Boys" every now and then.  Thus, for you west-coast people who get at
least a half dozen DCI shows (or more, albiet they are early in the season)
we folks in New England are absolutely THRILLED to have a DCI finals in
Boston.  (And if it sucks there, don't blame me, I'll be pissed off too).

In fact, I don't know where (exactly) they're going to be?  I assume
Foxboro Stadium, but I'm *praying* it's not.  It's not a bad stadium,
just a little smaller than most.  However, it is entirely concrete which
will hold sound in.

Oh well, I couldn't sit back and watch you rail on west coast fans going
to Boston.  We love DCI just as much as the corps-rich state of California..




>
>Scott 
>
>--
>              ________   ________         gt1293c@cad.gatech.edu
>       |   | (___  |__)   | \  /      Box 24860 Georgia Tech Station 
>       |_|_|_____) |  \  _|__\/__         Atlanta, GA 30332-1001
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers!