From: larry@csccat.cs.com (Larry Spence)
Newsgroups: rec.music.cd
Subject: Re: Repost: RARE CDs FOR SALE!!! (over 800 CDs)!!!
Summary: !!!
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:24:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Support Corporation,  Dallas,Texas

In article <35116@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> jry@reef.cis.ufl.edu (John Young) writes:
>I just have a few more words to say on my behalf...
>
>First, to equate selling bootleg CDs with selling drugs over the net is the
>most asinine thing I have ever heard...if you are going to defend your
>position, at least do it in a way that doesn't make you look like an idiot.

I should state that I said this as someone who thinks adults should be able
to take drugs as long as they're not driving/working or causing harm to
someone else.  So I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Young is some evil fiend
who's destroying our minds, etc., etc.   Simply that both drugs and bootlegs
are items that are illegal, contraband, and therefore not appropriate material 
to be selling on usenet.  This is so obvious that I'm stunned that Mr. Young 
would dispute it.  There may be a lot more outrage from the average citizen 
over drugs being sold on the net than bootlegs, but selling either can get you 
a very hefty fine and/or jail time.  I've mentioned to Mr. Young in email that
I couldn't believe he would so blatantly defend illegal use of the net.  I
am not going to "rat" on anyone to the authorities, but I'm not going to let
preposterous statements such as Mr. Young's go unchallenged.  Mr. Young is
making himself very visible for someone who's selling illegal goods on the net.

>Secondly, as someone pointed out...the laws which govern live recordings
>in Italy are VERY different than the U.S. [blahblahblah...]

So what?  If snuff movies are legal in Mozambique, they're still illegal here.
As I'm sure Mr. Young knows, every single disc (or close to it) that he was
selling is illegal in the US and most other countries.  A local record store
in Dallas was busted twice for bootlegs -- the second time, they sealed his
entire inventory, searched his home, etc.  Readers of r.m.cd may recall the
postings about Customs officials tracing shipments of as little as two boot
CDs to their recipients' homes a couple years ago.  Record shows have been
raided, etc.  I haven't heard of any successful defenses based on "it's legal 
in Italy!"

>I have a Great Dane CD recorded last year on
>Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever tour that you can buy on your Master Card direct
>from Great Dane in Italy...do you know why?  BECAUSE THAT CD IS LEGAL IN 
>ITALY...that's why! 

I really hope that's true, it would be good news to me.  But I don't think
the fact that GD is willing to take your money and ship you discs proves 
anything about legality in the US.  In a somewhat analogous situation, 
overseas suppliers were selling "smart drugs" to people in the US -- it was
even legal under US laws (three month supply for personal use, etc.).  But US
Customs decided that they didn't like that, so they just started intercepting
the shipments as they entered the US.  They could care less if the stuff is
legal in Switzerland or wherever.  What about all those Swinging Pig discs 
that are made in Luxembourg, where copyrights are a joke?  Certainly you're 
not going to claim that they're OK to buy "because they're legal over there," 
are you?  Even if this were true, at most it would be legal to order a 
single copy for personal use, not multiple copies for resale in the US.  And
the reports in ICE indicate that even small personal orders are illegal.

>Which then begs the 
>question...how can someone else (like myself) get the CD for less than
>the price Great Dane sells them for...
>Simple...you have to buy thousands of dollars worth of merchandise from them
>to get a break...and I'm not talking about ordering 100 different CDs...
>I mean someone (generally) orders 50 of the same CD title!  So now 
>you can understand how it works.

I can't believe that you're dumb enough to publicly admit this.  Could you
repeat that for our netter friends at the .gov sites? %)

>One last note...in other countries like Luxembourg, the public domain laws
>are nearly non-existant...

Again, the authorities in the US aren't likely to allow themselves to be
dictated to by other countries' laws or lack thereof.  You're either very
ignorant of the law or pretending to be... If these discs are legit, why
do record shows get raided, etc.?  I supposed they don't confiscate the
discs from Italy and Luxembourg, huh?  

You apparently didn't read the thread in r.m.beatles about bootlegs.  One
netter got an opinion from two lawyers that even personal possession of
bootlegs would be illegal unless you could _prove_ that you did not / could
not listen to them and that they were only collectables.  The two lawyers
seemed quite sure of this -- you couldn't even have a CD player in the
house, or this would be used as evidence that you might have been listening
to them!  The RIAA really hates CD boots, because they can easily be used
as digital masters for more boots with no loss of quality; they consider
a CD boot to be legally equivalent to a studio master tape.  Now, this may
seem really silly to you and I, but "them's the facts."  Given that, can
you see how someone posting > 800 boot CDs to an international net that
may or may not be monitored by the authorities would strike me as rather
careless and/or greedy?

-- 
Larry Spence
larry@cs.com
...!{uunet|texsun|cs.utexas.edu|decwrl|decvax}!csccat!larry