HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: DDFr@Midway.UChicago.Edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
Organization: University of Chicago Law School
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:45:21 GMT

In article <viking.727934225@ponderous.cc.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu
(Dan Sorenson) wrote:
> 
"You might want to look into an "allthing," which is roughly a glorified
island meeting, where disagreements are settled by right of arms (ie: beat
each other up until one quits or dies), or by general concensus.  As I
understand, a chieftan-type moderated the thing. The Norse model has been
remarkably close to a Constitutional Monarchy than an anarchy for a good
deal of its history."

This is a rather peculiar description of the Icelandic legal system. The
Allthing was an annual assemply at which various things took place,
including court cases. The cases were  decided by vote of the judges, not
by either consensus or violence. There are occasional incidents in the
sagas where violence breaks out at the Allthing (and there have been
fistfights in the U.S. congress), but it was certainly not the normal
procedure. There were also lots of cases that got settled by an agreement
between the parties--as is also true for U.S. law at present.

The Logretta, which was the legislative part of the Allthing, was moderated
by the Logsogumadr (usually translated "lawspeaker"), who was elected for a
three year term. The Godar (usually translated "chieftains"), of whom there
were 39 (40 after the reform conventionally credited to Njal), held a
transferable property right which gave them a role in selecting judges and
in connecting their clients (thingmen) to the legal system.

It seems a bit odd to describe as "remarkably close to a Constitutional
Monarchy" a system set up by people who, in their own accounts, were
refugees from the establishment of the Norwegian monarchy, and who (until
the breakdown in 1262-1263, when they turned the country over to Norway)
had no king.


> 	As for protection, it was a lindenwood shield and a spear of
> ashwood, plus a sword of steel if you were rich enough."

Where have I heard those words before? Actually, the poem you appear to be
quoting is describing Anglo Saxons not Norse--but the military technology
is not very different. Reading the sagas, however, the structure of
coalitions seems rather more important in defending an individual than his
private ability to fight, although both matter.

too, until we were told it had no place in civilized society.
> 
> < Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
> <  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
> <     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
> <                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >

David Friedman
Olin Fellow in Law and Economics
University of Chicago Law School
(312) 702-9589
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
From: tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:12:59 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee) writes:
> symbolic democracy.  And if you believe that Washington pulls Wall Street's
> strings, or that scholars and journalists constitute a power elite, I have so
> second-hand toilet paper for sale...
Well, I would think by definition, information vendors constitute a power 
elite.  Look how they have made the drug wars popular!  And as for DC 
pulling Wall street, watch what happens whenever the Fed changes the 
interest rate.  People make big bucks on bonds! (and will lose some next 
year - mark my words).  If you don't believe the power of the pen, I got 
some nice Foodmaker stock I'll sell you... at last years prices!
> 
> Boys, you have ALL been selected to LEAVE th' PLANET in 15 minutes!!
> 				-- Zippy the Pinhead

Zippy! Yeah!

--                    
INTERNET:  tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!tumidity
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: ajc1@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke)
Subject: Re: Capitalist Restaurant Oligarchy
Organization: Institute of Astronomy, Cambridge
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:03:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.205916.22518@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com
(Perry E. Metzger) answers some of my earlier points.

	ok, i'm sorry this has taken so long to sort out - i really
	couldn't believe that you could be coming from such a 
	point of view and claiming it was anarchist.  there doesn't
	seem to be any more to say apart from echo what someone wrote
	ages ago that anarchism is concerned with removing power
	structures, not governments.

	sorry for wasting bandwidth - i honestly thought i must have
	been misunderstanding something - i won't be posting on this
	thread again.

	andrew

	ps  skip the request for a tape of the debate.


     institute of astronomy,                   if you tell me why the fen
     madingley road, cambridge                 appears impassable, i then
     cb3 0ha, england.                   will tell you why i think that i
     (0223) 337504/48                          can get across it if i try
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: ajc1@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Organization: Institute of Astronomy, Cambridge
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:36:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.225109.9481@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:

|> There isn't a single Wendy's or Taco Bell or Sainsbury's or Tescos or
|> Safeway in New York City where I live. I don't even have any idea what
|> a Tescos or Sainsbury's might be. There are dozens of different chains
|> of supermarkets in New York, along with lots of "one of a kind" corner
|> stores. There are thirty thousand restaurants in New York, of which
|> chain restaurants constitute a tiny fraction of the whole -- under
|> five percent at best. I'd say that your contention does not appear to
|> be correct.

	ok, some of the names are british chain-stores.  my
	point wasn't that all restaurants are owned by a single world-
	wide corporation, surprisingly enough, but that some large
	businesses do exist in these areas.  i will try to make it a
	little simpler below:

	in my home town the shops have been steadily closing
	down for the last ten years.  all that remain are charity
	shops (i think the american might be thrift shops), a bakers
	and an off-licence.  the main cause, as far as i can see, is
	that large supermarkets have opened stores on the edges of
	nearby larger towns.

	travelling through america i was amazed that every town
	i stopped in had a mcdonalds (ok, perhaps greyhounds have
	some sort of arrangement with the chain - i don't know) or
	a taco-bell or whatever.  reading alt.macdonalds i found
	that most of these places are owned by a smaller number of
	even larger businesses.

	i agree that there will be some small places - especially
	in areas where people are particularly wealthy - but there
	are certainly larger businesses.  i really don't understand
	how big businesses like these fit in with 'anarchy' or how you
	expect these to exist without opressive (internal) power 
	structures.


	on a more fundamental level i am worried that a society based
	upon competition requires a 'sub-class' for motivation, which
	is not necessary for one based upon cooperation.  although
	the former is demonstrably easier to achieve.

	
	what would be the physical structure of an 'anarcho-capitalist'
	society?  do you think your system would work in rural regions,
	or is somewhere like new york necessary to sustain diversity?


	can i also echo someone else's request for a tape or 
	transcript of the debate?  i would be willing to transcribe
	some of a tape (and post it) in return.  (this 

	andrew


     institute of astronomy,                   if you tell me why the fen
     madingley road, cambridge                 appears impassable, i then
     cb3 0ha, england.                   will tell you why i think that i
     (0223) 337504/48                          can get across it if i try
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
From: tonyd@lclark.edu (Anthony Davis)
Subject: Re: ANARCHY IS STUPID
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:22:48 GMT

In article <496791163.23@inode.com> cculia@inode.com writes:
>
>
>  Anarchy is stupid.
>
>          There can never be any such thing as a society without authority or
>government.  There will always be people who will try to dominate others, and
>who will use their physical or other strengths to their advantage, in order to
>obtain their goals.  Think about it.  It's logical.  If you had an AK-47 and
>your neighbors had kitchen knives, would you take thier shit?  No.. you'd go
>and demand "taxes" from them or whatever you wanted, since you have the power.
> It's part of human nature, and it's impossible to defeat.
>
>  So somebody try to explain to me how the hell anarchy is possible, because I
>don't beleive it.
>
> 
>... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
>--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
>#! rnews 1

"And love means nothing, in some strange quarters."

thanks much... for your wonderfully enlightening post...
who's going to stop this shit if you don't?

what are you afraid of that you need to make people fear you...
what do you need from us?  what do you need from your neighbors?
if you could have anything you wish... what would it be? an ak-47?   

What Is Your True Desire?

Anarchy is foolish, yes, but what wonderful fools we can be...

every time you threaten someone... hurt someone... kill someone...
you diminish yourself...

just stop.


for glory,
tonyd

Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:1212 talk.politics.guns:27211
From: DDFr@Midway.UChicago.Edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy
Organization: University of Chicago Law School
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:24:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.023237.8646@midway.uchicago.edu>,
sals@florimel.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier) wrote:
Friedman's book, while not all hand-waving, isn't the best source of
information. Friedman cowrote a book on Medevial Iceland which is supposed
to be good, but for more specific and modern arguments Randy Barnett makes
very good arguments. 

1. I have not cowritten a book on Medieval Iceland; I have a chapter on the
subject in The Machinery of Freedom and published an article on it long ago
in the Journal of Legal Studies.

2. People interested in the subject of private law may want to look at
Bruce Benson's recent book on the subject. As I remember from reading the
manuscript he included a good deal of historical stuff on the evolution of
the common law, but I do not know how much of that is in the published
version.

3. Glad to know my arguments are not all hand waving. For those interested,
the relevant discussion is part III of the the Machinery of Freedom, where
I try to work out what a system of competing private protection agencies
might look like, and what sort of law the resulting market for arbitration
agencies would produce.


David Friedman
Olin Fellow in Law and Economics
University of Chicago Law School
(312) 702-9589
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 03:57:05 GMT

pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:

>Now, I'm not an anarchist-socialist like most of the people you've
>been conversing with -- I'm an anarchocapitalist. I believe that
>security services can and should be provided by the free market. As
>evidence that this can work, I cite the case of Iceland, which
>operated perfectly well with only private methods for settling
>disputes from ~900AD to 1252AD, which is longer than any western
>government I know of has lasted.

	You might want to look into an "allthing," which is roughly
a glorified island meeting, where disagreements are settled by right
of arms (ie: beat each other up until one quits or dies), or by general
concensus.  As I understand, a chieftan-type moderated the thing.
The Norse model has been remarkably close to a Constitutional Monarchy
than an anarchy for a good deal of its history.

>Again, I'd like to emphasize that I have great differences with the
>anarchosocialists in this discussion, but that does not mean that I
>disagree with the premise that government is unneeded -- although I
>would use arguments that they would largely disagree with!

	Government need not be anything more than the populace meeting
and voicing their opinions at some time, with an agreement making a
new law or removing an old one.

	As for protection, it was a lindenwood shield and a spear of
ashwood, plus a sword of steel if you were rich enough.  An iron or
possibly steel axe was often used instead of the other weapons.  In
all cases you were responsible for your defense unless a neighbor
took interest and helped out.  It used to be that way in America,
too, until we were told it had no place in civilized society.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:1186 talk.politics.guns:27110
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:02:42 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1993Jan22.004344.12791@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>
>It is unfortunately very difficult to explain to people how such
>mechanisms would work and why they are practical because people have
>very fixed paradigms in their minds of how things should be done --
>imagine trying to explain to a resident of Moscow 20 years ago the
>notion that bread shortages would disappear if they only had private
>property. However, I can take the time and explain some
>anarchocapitalist theory if anyone is interested. 

People are starving in Moscow, because there is bread, but they cannot
afford to buy it.

Not much of a choice, incompetent state socialism or the unregulated free
market.  The latter is a license to exploit others, as is being shown now, rather
than 'liberty'. 


ian

---
	 Ian Heavens			ian@spider.co.uk                 
 	 Spider Software
 	 Spider Park, Stanwell Street		
	 Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland	+44 31 555 5166 (Ext 4347)
--
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: dmandl@shearson.com (David Mandl)
Subject: Anarchist forum in NYC, Jan 28, 1993
Reply-To: dmandl@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:41:20 GMT


There will be an anarchist forum in NYC this Thursday
(January 28) on the subject:

"Anarchism and Capitalism: Friends or Enemies"

Speakers: Perry Metzger (anarcho-capitalist) & Steve Shalom (anti-capitalist)

I'm sure many or most of you know Perry from the net; Steve is a professor 
of political science, writes for Z Magazine (among others), and is editor of
the book "Socialist Visions" (South End Press).  They will debate the
virtues of capitalism and its compatibility with anarchism.  (This won't be
a formal debate--the two will each get a chance to speak, and then there will
be a question-and-answer/discussion period open to everybody.)  This should
be a particularly lively forum.

This event is FREE (donations requested/appreciated)
Please come!

Place:
Penn South Community Center
369 Eighth Ave. (corner W. 29 St.)
NYC

Sponsor: Libertarian Book Club*


* The Libertarian Book Club is anarchist, not Libertarian.  The group
was founded in 1949 when the word "libertarian" meant "anarchist," and
refuses to change its name.
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Non Serviam, Issue #1
Date: 23 Jan 93 17:12:15 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

pauls@css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth) wrote:
> At last, the first issue of "non serviam".  For issue #0, and for
> a copy of Max Stirner's book "Der Einzige und sein Eigentum" (an
> English translation available in Macintosh MS-Word format, compressed
> and BinHexed) visit the ftp site "red.css.itd.umich.edu" (141.211.182.91)
> and look in /poli/Non.Serviam.

Which edition/translation is this?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: What is Anarchism
Organization: Partnership for an America Free Drug
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:43:22 GMT

ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.190623.9255@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>>
>>Get real, Mr. Cooke. Socialists have NEVER had a monopoly on the
>>notion of anarchism, and if anything the anarchocapitalists have been
>>around longer, as the first people to seriously broach the notion of
>>anarchism in the modern sense in the 17th century were individualist
>>rather than collectivist in orientation. In spite of this, of course,
>
>Not here, they weren't; the first radical group that can be definitely
>identified as anarchist were the Diggers, who were definitely
>collectivist;

[Rest deleted]

Ian, I don't give a damn. The whole point of my messages was that I've
got a perfect right to call myself an anarchist. If you want to go
historical, I can claim that the Diggers weren't the first, but that
the guys who founded Iceland were the first, and were capitalist
anarchists. We can go at this all day long finding older and older and
older precedents until we go back to Adam. That wasn't my point. My
point was to show that there is a reasonable argument for my naming
myself an anarchist.

You can scream until you are blue in the face -- I won't listen any
further. I've made my point. I'm an anarchist. If you don't like it,
well, tough. You won't be able to get me or any of the other people
who agree with me to change our appelation.  Why don't you just accept
this and get on with discussing substantive issues instead?
--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
Laissez faire, laissez passer. Le monde va de lui meme.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Re: Ideality vs. Reality (Was: Anarchy in Somalia)
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1993Jan21.203358.4655@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
	<ATAYLOR.93Jan25134635@gauss.nmsu.edu>
	<1993Jan25.222751.21503@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:18:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.222751.21503@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> corleyj@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:
<   Here's my train of thought:
<   1. Anarchism is based, consistently, be it anarchosocialism or
<   anarchocapitalism (to use neato phrases from another thread), on the
<   concept of universal cooperation.  Otherwise, individuals or groups
<   will begin to take away the rights of other individuals or groups.

	So far, so good.
 
<  2. As it currently stands, universal cooperation, even of the most basic
<   kind, is impossible.  People are either too stupid or too stubborn to
<   see the advantages of it.

	Uh, simplistic, but more or less acceptable.

<  3. Therefore, for anarchy to work, people have to change.
<   IMHO, the best way for them to change is to really think about what they
<   are doing to themselves and to each other, to really understand what
<   freedom means and to realise that they don't need a government to tell them
<   what to do.
 
	In other words, the day that "everyone" is of one mind,
	things will be different.

	"In the sweet, bye and bye"....I was unaware that anarchism
	is a religion.

<   ><If you want realism, though, I admit, you'll have to try somewhere else.
<   >
<   >	Huh. These aren't just word games, folks, they are ideas
<   >	with consequences.
<   >
<   No, I was playing word games, actually.  That's all philosophy is.
<   "They're all we've got to go on."---Stoppard again.

	Uh huh. Lenin wrote "just words". Mao spoke "just words".
	A. Schickelgruber wrote "just words". 

	Sorry, ideas still have consequences.

<   >	The absurd notion that humans are infinitely plastic and can be
<   >	"molded for their own good" into some sort of "New Human"
<   >	should, by now, be completely discredited. 
<   >
<   Where are these quotes coming from?  Not me, and it certainly doesn't sound
<   like an anarchist of any kind.
 
	Anytime someone begins to talk about how humanity "must
	change", I check my wallet and my weapons; the former to
	see if it's being picked and the latter for obvious reasons.

<  >	That it has not is an indictment of, among other things,
<   >	modern "education".

<   Huh?  Yoo callun me stoopid?  :-)

	Well, if one is going to discuss what used to be called
	"political economy" and not know history....there's a 
	pitfall waiting which George Santayana already addressed
	via epigram.

	Something about "those who refuse to learn from history
	are condemned to repeat it", I believe.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	Although a cynic would respond, "The only thing we learn
	from history is that humans learn nothing from history".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	
	
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: anand@Cadence.COM (Anand Bemra)
Subject: Re: What is Anarchism
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:57:52 GMT

pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:

>I'm a capitalist in addition to being an anarchist 

You kinda sound like Ronald Reagan. "I want the government off
of peoples' back."

>Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
Screw PBS & NPR news. Tired of news "sanitized for your protection?". Try:
misc.activism.progressive, "Lies Of Our [NY]Times", "Z" magazine (Boston).
KPFA 94.1 FM (Bay Area), 90.7 (L.A.), 90.1 (Houston, TX), 89.3 (Washington, DC)
These are my opinions, not my employer's. 
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Linksvayer)
Subject: Re: Anarchist forum in NYC, Jan 28, 1993
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 00:40:09 GMT

Would anyone be willing to tape (preferably audio) this event?
--
Mike Linksvayer   mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu   "And 409"
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:1131 talk.politics.guns:27010