From: abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Let's hit Nazis?
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:13:25 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <dieter-220193153324@frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>, dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> In article <1993Jan21.201151.19640@husc3.harvard.edu>,
> abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu in reply to Christian Lampl wrote:
> 
>> But germans were generally more cruel during WW2! You could find a lot of 
>> reason, like bad life after WW1 and so on, but is it important. The problem is
>> that all these cruelties made the whole nation more cruel. And it would take 
>> more then 2 generations to overcome moral consequences of 12 years Nazi power.
> 
> [  ......................   ]  I would not say that the average German
> was more brutal than the average Russian/American/English/French. Only,
> while in the allied countries, dangerous criminals were in jail, here,
> they were ruling the country, and it is the fault of the German popula-
> tion not to have stopped them at the very beginning.

I would not say that the average German was more brutal than the average
R/A/E/F before 1933. Then when from the fault of the German population in a
desperate economic situation dangerous criminals ruling the country corrupted 
the most part of population and murdered, forced to emigrate or put in KZ the 
best. That let them rose the average level of cruelty. It would be wrong to put 
everything on this "dangerous criminals". They would not be so successful
without help of the most part of Germans.
 
> 
>> Should I understand you, that you finally agreed with me that germans in
>> reallity did know what was going on, but prefered not to know? I could
>> understand why... After all my own grandparents didn't do a thing in 1937, 
>> even though they understood what were going on. They were afraid... After 
>> all what could they do? But it doesn't mean that I don't condemn THEM. And 
>> it doesn't make MY life easier eventhough I was born 12 years AFTER Stalin's
>> death. It is very important to understand that they knew.
> 
> What would you have done in their position? Or in the position of a
> German citizen of 1930? 1933? 1939? People were probably not aware of
> their fate in the beginning, and later, the Nazis were too powerful.

Answers for all questions: very probably the same. They were in incredibly bad
situation. It was almost impossible to stay clean. But what does it change?
They were corrupted and I didn't. Read Remark's books - lost generation.

> 
> [...] Look at the Serbs in 
> Yugoslavia. They recently have **democratically elected** a government
> which is fighting a rassist war against their former countrymen. There
> are even concentration camps and mass executions happening in Bosnia-
> Hercegovina. 

Exactly. What could you expect after corruption of population by communist 
for 48 years? And now..... SHOULD WE DISCUSS US MARINE'S RAPING? *Sigh*

> 
>> All people who were born after let's say 1927 are not guilty at all.
>> Most of them have nothing to do with Nazis (at least I hope so). They made no 
>> crime. Nobody should accuse them. However I am not forgetting that they were
>> *influenced* by their parents and grandparents who are bearing moral guilt. 
>> That's why I am trying lets say "suspicious" when somebody is saying: "I am
>> German. But I was born after 1945 and so 'de facto' I have as much in common
>> with Nazis as you." That is what you are doing. You are not hiting Nazis. For
> 
> Influenced, yes. But it's really not true that either
> 
> 1) All/most people who had lived during wartime had Nazi ideas,
> 2) the younger generations were educated this way, too, and
> 3) even if they had been, they would have adopted this indoctrination.
> 

Sure, it should be better with every new generation. But could you tell me that
you have already overcome this problem? 

> 
> The firebombings which have happened recently were not committed by
> the typical young German (the one who has demonstrated against racism),
> but by some rare idiots. It would be very unfair to blame the "German 
> youth" for these things, like it would be to claim that the typical 
> German youngster kills his ex-girlfriend because there had been such an
> incident in our town two years ago. Of course, things like this make
> it to the news. The pupil who makes his homework together with his
> Turkish friend will never.
>

Agreed. I never mentioned these firebombings in my previous messages. On the
other hand I don't like political responce on these events in Germany.
 
                         Cordially
                         Victor Abkevich
  
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