From: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: How to get daughter more career-minded? - medium
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:20:24 GMT
Reply-To: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Software Technology Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.

I couldn't locate the original posting.  Thus, I'm posting a follow-up to
a second-generation post.  Sorry if the facts are skewed because of this.

In article <1992Sep28.175711.24303@cbnewse.cb.att.com>, elonich@cbnewse.cb.att.com (diane.e.pedersen) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep28.160918.12999@engage.pko.dec.com>, pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius) writes:
|> > 
|> > Then, a few weeks ago, I took her to the doctor for her regular
|> > checkup.  On our way back, I asked her: "Do you want to be a
|> > doctor when you grow up?"  Her answer shocked me.  "No," she said
|> > "I want to get married."  "But you can be a doctor and get married
|> > too" I tried to tell her that there is really no conflict here.
|> > "No," she said "I want to be a mom and have kids."  "But you can
|> > be a mom, have kids, and be a doctor at the same time." I was trying
|> > my best to explain to her.  "No," her voice became lauder "I don't
|> > want to be a doctor.  I want to get married when I grow up."
|> > 
|> > obviously picked up some other ideas.  Apparently she watched
|> > the "Little Mermaid" at the school for she sometimes told us
|> > about that story and asked us buy her that tape.  We have told
|> > her many times that Ariel is not really a good girl because she
|> > only wants to play but does not want to study and do some useful
|> > things.  I guess we have yet to get our message across.

I try to ask our 3yo and his friends (ranging in age from 3yo to 5yo)
the same sorts of questions.  Judging from the responses I receive,
most children in this age range can't think that far in advance.
Further, they are much more focused on "fun" activities, since they
don't understand the rewards inherent in "non-fun" activities.

There is alot they can learn from "fun" activities, including the
fantasy role-playing that videos such as "The Little Mermaid" can
elicit.  They learn social skills such as sharing, cooperation,
giving, receiving, being nice, responsibility for actions, etc.
They can play with roles (I'll be the doctor, you be the nurse.
I'll be the Mommy, you be the Daddy, etc.) and try out different
adult activites.  These roles do tend to be stereotypical and one-
dimensional at this age, as they cannot yet handle the full range
of roles we accept as adults.

It also sounds as if you want her to explore these roles in the
way you prescribe, instead of in her own style.  Have you ever
considered that her style and your style might be different?

You may personally find a career rewarding and worthwhile.  But,
do you have to put down getting married at the same time?  She can
have both, as many women demonstrate.  She may just want to try out
one role at a time, for now.

And what if, down the road, she does opt for marriage and becoming
a stay-at-home mother?  Will you accept her choice as one only she
can make?  Or, will you judge her against what you thought she should
have become (or against what you felt she could have become)?  For
me this situation was particularly angering when I was a teenager.
My sport of choice was swimming, and my father never attended one
swim meet.  His sport was basketball (college scholarship level) and
he sure as heck made it to my brothers basketball games!  I always
felt that he would have attended my meets if I was playing an
"approved" sport (or, I should say, one that interested him).  My
point is this: If you push too hard for the way that you think
your daughter should live, you risk cutting off certain channels
of communication.  Allowing her to explore and eliciting her thoughts
and feelings on the matter will allow for a two-way dialogue.
 
|> If you nurture her to become the best she can be, keeping
|> HER interests a priority, she will evolve career interest 
|> as she grows.

Agreed.  She may not choose a career until college!
 
|> Being very bright does not automatically mean she's advanced
|> emotionally as well.  Most 4-year-olds have very black/white
|> views of the world, as they attempt to learn the rules and
|> roles.  
|> 
|> It will probably take a while, but you can teach her that
|> many Mommy's ALSO have a job besides Mommyhood.  Try to
|> pick mothers with outside careers (MOCs -- an new label?)
|> as your role models.  

You might even introduce the concept that Mommys can stay at
home.  I know this isn't PC, but it is a growing trend.
 
|> And don't choose her career for her, based on the world's
|> view of status.  It makes it too likely that she will
|> either a) pick a career to please you that she may not
|> like or maximize her potential in, or b) rebel totally
|> and jump into something contrary to what you want, and 
|> be so busy rebelling that she won't make a good choice
|> for her interests and abilities.  

A collegue, a woman, did exactly that.  Her father pushed and
pushed for all his girls (3 of them) to be a nurse or doctor.
She was actually received a BS in biology, but didn't continue
her MD program.  She discovered CS, and took her masters in CS.
Both sisters are nurses, and the father approves.  He does not
approve of her choice, and so they just don't talk.

|> You keep pushing "doctor", yet maybe she'd end up preferring
|> to work in the growing field of creatively visualizing data,
|> using computers, art, and music.  Or doing well in some
|> field that hasn't been invented yet.

And maybe she'll play first-chair viola for the London Philharmonic.
Or act in the local rep. theatre.
 
|> Up to about 4th grade, I insisted I wanted to be a teacher.
|> Now I'm a software engineer.

And I was intensely interested in Paleantology.  The I discovered
the blossoming field of computer science in Jr. High and never looked
back.  My Dad told me that "You'll never make any money in computers."
(And he retired early as a millionaire.)  Now he pokes fun at that remark.
 
|> My 2nd-grader wants to be a "Train Driver".  He chose this
|> profession because he a) likes trains b) won't need college
|> for it and c) thinks they don't do anything but sit in the
|> locomtive and look out the window and apply brakes once in
|> a while (he doesn't want to drive the subway becasue there
|> are too many starts and stops!).  As he is quite bright,
|> we are not thrilled with this career choice, but we
|> accept it (hoping it will change with time), and restrict
|> our opinions to things like "well, usually you get paid
|> more if you go to college", "college is fun", "learning
|> is fun", "what do you enjoy doing?"

Is there anyone who didn't entertain the idea of becoming an Engineer
(train), Police Officer, Nurse, Postman, Milkman or Doctor?  These are
adults that children can see in action - so they try them on for a time.
Let them try it on for size.  They will undoubted switch many, many
times throughout their life.  I doubt that she'll pick a career that
she role plays in grade school.

The best we can do as parents is to give them the tools to work with.
How they choose to use those tools is totally up to them.  Also, if
we predict a negative future for them (e.g. "The didn't grow up to be
an XYZ like they should have, therefor they are a failure") then we
risk developing a schizm in the relationship.  If, however, we tell
them that we will love them and approve of anything they choose to do,
they will have the self-esteem to shoot for the stars.

Steven (sjk@strl.labs.tek.com)

"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid)  "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works."  (Me)
Newsgroups: misc.kids