HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phil@rahul.net (Phil Gustafson)
Subject: Re: Length of Wagner's operas (was librettos ....)
Organization: a2i network
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:48:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.235440.4235@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>I can't resist reposting this article by Phil Gustafson from 
>soc.culture.british. I hope it's not a breech of network etiquette.
>

[my article deleted]

It would have been better if you asked asked me first, but emailing me
about it is almost as good.  FWTW, I wouldn't have mailed that article
to this group, largely because it might set Ms. Russell's lawyers on me
for plagiarism.

But it's an interesting thread.

I was first attracted to Wagner's music by the "High Points" everyone
one knows, but now thrill to (almost) every note in a good performance.
Some of my favorite passages are those that were cut from some unfortunate
performances in the past:  the long emotional crescendo of the Wotan/
Brunnhilde duet,  the Wotan/Mime quiz scene are two.

One suggestion I have for prospecive Ring fans is Deryck Cooke's
Introduction to DRDN, London RDN S-1, probably of CD by now.  I
disagree with him here and there, but find this set far more helpful
than any synopsis disc or detached series of leitmotifs.

Cheers, Phil
-- 
Phil Gustafson <phil@rahul.net>
From: mchenry@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Can you name these tunes?
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:04:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: guvax.1992Nov10.110459.1708
Followup-To: poster ,rec.music.classical
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <1992Nov5.223033.17025@shell.shell.com>, pace@rook (Stephen O. Pace) writes:
> I am posting this for people without Usenet access.  Please respond by
> e-mail if you can.  Thanks!
> 
> Name That Tune
> 
> 1.  I have been trying to identify an obscure piece of music for nearly a
> year now.  It was used as the theme for an old BBC TV series, "The
> Commanders", about the exploits of WWII military leaders.
>     It is featured in the TV commercial for "Egoiste" perfume, in which a
> European lady opens the shutters of her balcony and shouts "Egoiste!!!"
> This scene is rhythmically repeated in geometric progression until all the
> shutters on the entire building's facade open and shut at once.
>    It is a very haunting and aggressive musical work.  Please help me
> track it down.  It may be by Prokofiev, but I can't be sure.
> 
>         Edward Fisher, Pine Bush NY
> 

The work you mention is a small excerpt from Romeo and Juliet, the ballet 
music by Prokofiev. It is from the small portion called Montagues and 
Capulets. It was also recently used on another commercial, by Nike, with 
David Robinson. I don't recall which, if any, of the three suites that 
Prokofiev made from this material contains this excerpt.

Bill McHenry                   |Those who do not hear the past works
mchenry@guvax (bitnet)         |are condemned to recompose them....
mchenry@guvax.georgetown.edu   |                 -me
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Subject: Re: Help Required. Modernism.
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:01:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.121235.20604@nuscc.nus.sg> art30248@nusunix1.nus.sg (NG
LING LING) writes:
>
>By the way, how come my posts don't stay on the reader very long ?
>Does it mean that people "kill" my file ?
>


What stays on your reader is at the discretion of your System Administrator.
If there is little storage space for news articles, then they will get
garbage-collected frequently.  See if your friendly Computer Center can
answer your question.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Re: Brahms
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:42:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.181745.28913@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois) writes:
>In article <BxM4Gt.Dtn@cmcl2.nyu.edu> tony@cns.nyu.edu writes:
>>I can't resist adding George Bernard Shaw's view of Brahms to this (quoting
>>frommemory): "Brahms is like a gigantic baby, who insists on dressing himself
>>up as Bach or Handel, and making a prolonged and intolerable noise".
>>
>>To be fair to GBS, he later recanted and allowed as how he had misjudged
>>Brahms.
>
>Brahms himself was not kind either: he called Bruckner's symphonies
>"boa constrictors."
>
>-- 
>
>	Francois Velde

Not to mention the fact that when Liszt played his B Minor sonata (a true
piano masterpiece) to Brahms, Brahms fell asleep during it !! (so the
story goes).

This is an interesting topic. Composer's who have rubbished other composers?

How about Debussy describing Satie's music as 'worthless'?

Messiaen said that no great piano music had been written after Mozart
until Debussy came along.

Any others?

David




--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Alburqurque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
From: martino@wpi.WPI.EDU (Robert Paul Martino Jr)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Brahms symphonies question
Date: 6 Nov 1992 17:52:10 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

I first was exposed to Brahms music by accident, I went to a concert
at Boston University with a friend to hear some renaissance music
but they had changed the plans and so Brahms was scheduled then.

However, my disappointment had faded by the end of the concert after
they played Brahms Piano Quintet in F-minor (Op.34) because I
was simply amazed by it.  I am getting that on CD soon (what are
good recordings of it?) but I've heard his symphonies are very
good and would like to hear what people have to say about them or
maybe just one in particular.

Rob

-- 
Rob Martino                          |     (clever or particularly funny
martino@wpi.wpi.edu                  |      philosophical quote here)
Worcester, Massachusetts USA         |
From: eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: It's in the wrists.
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:45:18
Organization: /pearl/homes/eijkhout/.organization
	<1992Nov12.185123.8506@borland.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cupid.cs.utk.edu
In-reply-to: alexande@borland.com's message of Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:51:23 GMT
In-reply-to: alexande@borland.com's message of Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:51:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.185123.8506@borland.com> alexande@borland.com (Mark Alexander) writes:

   It may be nice to have long fingers and wide spread, but short stubby
   fingers are better for speed and delicacy.

Aha, the old "length doesn't matter" argument !

;-) ;-) ;-)

Victor
From: beh@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (various Howellses)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wedding Music with Trumpet - Query
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:36:04
Organization: Internet access via the Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: borchers@poogh.llnl.gov's message of 10 Nov 92 18:43:49 GMT

I would recommend Purcell's 'Sound the Trumpet' as a beginning.  There are
other things, and I'll have to look for titles, because I am "hearing" them
in my head, but I cannot think them right now.  It's for Trumpet and voice
and piano.  

Purcell's Trumpet Voluntary, and there are some others.. I'll try to get
back with other ideas.

Nancy Howells
(beh@gnu.ai.mit.edu through the good graces of my sweet one)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: The Planets
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:52:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.145853.1348@tellab5.tellabs.com> young@tellabs.com (Craig Young) writes:
>This is not meant to take anything away from the Dutoit/Montreal recording,
>but I feel that there is a tendency for people to prefer more recent recordings
>to some that are a bit more dated. There are a lot of great performances and
>recordings that were made prior to 1987!

I sensed this kind of assumption among the Dutoit-dislikers posting in this
thread, and I was just waiting for someone to actually voice it.  I can't
speak for many others who like the Dutoit recording, but I love it *and*
emphatically fall outside your category.  Not only have I heard many older
recordings of this particular work, but there are many remastered 78
recordings in my collection (of other pieces), and I love them all, not to
mention the many recordings from the 50s and 60s I own.  Performance is by
far the first priority for me, and Dutoit is still my favorite for the
Planets.  Two friends of mine are the same way; i.e., they love the Dutoit
and don't care about vintage.  Sometimes I care about sound quality
(importance varies with piece), but as we all know, there is no real
correlation between that and vintage within the stereo age.

I do agree with you that there is a tendency among many to prefer more
recent recordings, but among people whom *I* know, there seems to me no
correlation between that and a liking for the Dutoit Planets.  (Not so for
Dutoit recordings in general, though.)  We are just music lovers.

-chris
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cimarosa sonatas
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:19:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Distribution: na
Organization: Univ. of Arizona


 Manuel Barrueco has recorded guitar transcriptions of several Cimarosa
sonatas - really lovely pieces, performed beautifully. I think it was
on the Vox/Turnabout album featuring Scarlatti,Cimarosa,Paganini & Giuliani
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: Perfect Pitch Ability - Questions
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 21:20:26 GMT

In article <1689E951B.AC12@vm.acs.unt.edu> AC12@vm.acs.unt.edu (Dr. Philip Baczewski) writes:
>In article <BxM8Ex.FI7@javelin.sim.es.com>
>RSPEIRS@130.187.170.178 (RON SPEIRS) writes:
> 
>>
>>I hope that this newsgroup is appropriate for this question.
>>I have always been interested in the ability called "Perfect Pitch".  As I


>>Has anyone published any research on this subject?  My specific questions are:
> 
>There has been quite a bit of research in this area.  If you are interested,
>go to the nearest University library and check Music Index or a Psychology

>I've done a small amount of research related to Absolute Pitch (AP) and found
>that Professional Musicians with Absolute Pitch seem to employ differing
>cognitive strategies when listening to and transcribing a Mozart duet than
>do comparably skilled musicians without AP.  There are still many questions


Most interesting is the case, mostly unresearched systematically, of
persons who have perfect pitch but are completely unmusical - e.g.
have poor musical imagery, cannot remember or carry a tune, etc.  I
have come across several such people in the course of experiments I
have done.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: It's in the wrists.
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:39:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov10.143946.17305
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <1992Nov10.130651.3134@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois) writes:

>I think a plaster cast of Liszt's hand was made (I am sure I saw it on
>the cover of some recording). I don't know where it is, but it is possible
>to find out how large his hands were.

Unfortunately that's not enough to know how large an interval he could
span, since that's a function not only of size but also of flexibility.
Unless, of course, the cast was made with the hand fully stretched.

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
From: rodean@fc.hp.com (Bruce Rodean)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Berlioz
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:19:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.BxKu7y.568
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

Darin Strait (dstrait@telesciences.com) wrote:
> Can someone recommend a CD pressing of Berlioz's Symphonie Phantastique (sp?)
> that I can find in the local Tower Records?

I will recommend (for some reason I feel like this discussion has
happened before) the Dutoit/Montreal SO recording on London.  Marvelous
sound and performance.

--
Bruce Rodean                          Hewlett-Packard Company
rodean@fc.hp.com
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: HAYDN
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:19:53 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Univ. of Arizona


 I'm surprised that nobody has said anything about Haydn's piano
sonatas. I don't really know too much about what recordings to
recommend, but having heard performances of many of them, I find
them really delightful - the essence of classicism in terms of
elegance and formal beauty. I know there are recordings available
on fortepiano, but I must say I've heard some marvelous performances
on modern piano, in which the performer seemed to me to be quite
aware of the stylistic approach for a fortepiano - no anachronistic
dynamic excesses, etc., but nonetheless a beautiful realization of
the music.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
From: rsi@scf16.scf.loral.com (Rich S. Ishikawa)
Subject: Re: Beethoven's Late Quartets
Organization: Loral Space and Range Systems, Sunnyvale, CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:04:32 GMT

>   Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
>   From: ext@wam.umd.edu (Eugene Zhu Xia)
>   Nntp-Posting-Host: rac2.wam.umd.edu
>   Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
>
>   I admit my English is inadequate (heck English is
>   my second language).  But as Roger said in his note, Beethoven pulled
>   off something that shouldn't have work.  Yet they also carry a sense
>   of inevitability (not his exact words).  No, there is no sense of 
>   impending doom (that is Mahler).  It is just a story, a life time 
>   experience told by a wise old man in the most graceful manner.  
>   T.S Eliot's Four Quartets, modeled after Beethoven's late quartets, 

Is T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets really inspired by the late quartets of
Beethoven???  I'm interested in hearing more about this.

I like the music very much, although I haven't heard it in years.
What I find most memorable about the quartets is the fast and really lively
movements, as in the #16 quartet (I think).  It's amazingly joyous and
happy- much more so than most of his other works.



-Rich










--
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
-*-*-* Richard S. Ishikawa -*-*-*-*-\     "To be or not to be..."     /*-*-*-*-
-*-*-*-* rsi@scf16.scf.loral.com -*-*-\   - can't be the question.  /*-*-*-*-*-
-*-*-* Loral Space and Range Systems *-*-*-*-* (408)734-6337 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Subject: Re: Piano Showpiece
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 19:39:17 GMT

In article <69289@cup.portal.com> Bill_P_Pearce@cup.portal.com writes:
>  For piano pieces that tend to look, and sound, harder than they
>are, you might look at some of the Mendelssohn works; for example,
>the Rondo Capriccioso, Op. 14 - somewhat overplayed a generation or
>two ago, I think, but a nice piece.  Mendelssohn has the advantage of
>lying very well for the hand, i.e. being earier to execute than it
>sounds (as opposed to Brahms, where the opposite often prevals).  A
>Chopin work that is not too hard, if you except the very difficult coda,
>is the C-Sharp Minor Scherzo (No. 3).  The Chopin ETude in A-Flat, Op.
>25, No. 1 is also quite effective and not very difficult, though it
>would help to have a larger than average hand.
>
>   Bill Pearce

Personally I think an 'easy showpiece' is a bit of a contradiction. Most
show pieces I know are technical displays like Scriabin Etude Op8 No 12,
or Rachmaninov C# Minor Prelude, or Debussy's L'Ile Joyeuse.

How about Debussy's Children's Corner Suite or the Deux Arabesques? They're
not particularly difficult but you can display a lot of musicality with
them. The Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum from Children's Corner Suite is quite
exciting when played fast as is the Golliwog's Cake Walk (has this been
renamed in our politically correct age?)

David
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bad Brahms (Was Re: Brahms symphonies question)
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:40:51 GMT
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Originator: brad@buck


In article <LR1SB49S@cc.swarthmore.edu>, abrocke1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Aaron Brockett) writes:

[previous post deleted]
|> 
|> Speaking of bad Brahms, does any exist? Are there any pieces of his that
|> people find lacking? I know that he tore up some works he found less than
|> satisfactory.
|> 

IMHO, yes, there is some very bad Brahms. 

I am thinking of Variations (or is it Rhapsody?) on a theme by someone, 
perhaps Paganini, for piano. This is a perfectly dreadful piece, in the 
same realm as some of Beethoven's piano music (apologies to the Beethoven 
piano afficianados). Specifically, I found it dull, repetitive, and insipid, 
almost stygian, to the point of being painful to listen to.

Curiously, I find Brahms' symphonies delightful, as I do much of Beethoven's
symphonic output. And it's not that I dislike solo piano, for I much enjoy
the piano music of Chopin, Debussy, et al. Oh well, there's no accounting
for taste.

- BK  
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: Bad Brahms (Was Re: Brahms symphonies question)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:44:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.184051.22829@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>I am thinking of Variations (or is it Rhapsody?) on a theme by someone, 
>perhaps Paganini, for piano. This is a perfectly dreadful piece, in the 
>same realm as some of Beethoven's piano music (apologies to the Beethoven 
>piano afficianados). Specifically, I found it dull, repetitive, and insipid, 
>almost stygian, to the point of being painful to listen to.

One of my favorite Brahms piano pieces.  Very exciting.  Every performance
I hear on the radio is bad.  I like the Katchen reissue, and I bet there
are some other good ones out there.

-chris
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: Recomendations on Rachmaninoff's 2nd Concerto for Piano (Cm)?
Keywords: rachmaninoff, concerto, piano
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 05:29:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.185056.14249@math.ucla.edu> pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh) writes:
>If you love unashamedly romantic, lyrical music then the SECOND SYMPHONY.
>The best recording is undoubtedly by Previn (I think it's with the LSO)
>but it may have been pulled. Definitely get a recording with NO CUTS from
>the score.

This must be the RCA reissue.  I haven't heard it, but I have used to own
the newer Previn/RoyalPO on Telarc.  I've heard the RCA Previn is good, but
that the sound is really bad.  I don't agree with the "definitely no cuts"
directive.  I think certain cuts make the piece more vital.  As for
recordings, probably few would ever consider buying a Marriner performance
if they saw it in the store.  In fact, it is surprisingly good -- my
favorite performance so far, although there are many I haven't heard, I'm
sure.  I sold my Previn/Telarc knowing I would never choose it over the
Marriner.  Go figure.

>I think Howard Shelley recorded all the PRELUDES a few years ago. The
>Preludes are simply the some of the best piano music ever written. Perhaps
>someone can comment on the Shelley recording?

I wish I could, but the only complete set I've heard is the Ashkenazy --
very good performances.

-chris
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: herbster@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Christoph Herbster)
Subject: Re: Length of Wagner's operas (was librettos ....)
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:27:11 GMT

f1toyl@uta.fi (Topi Ylinen) writes:

>Organization: University of Tampere, Finland
>
>
>Wagner's works - TOO LONG????
>
>I must say was rather surprised to find this thread. I have always considered,
>well, complex but rather self-contained (I am not sure if am misusing the word,
>as English is not my first language :). And I _do_ find every minute, even the
>smallest microsecond of uttermost importance. You could not even possibly
>shorten them...
>
>I have said this before, and I'll say it again: any comparison of Wagner's 
>dramas with Italian-French opera is violating them. They are - strictly 
>speaking - _operas_ in the full meaning of the word. They are *very* close
>to operas, but the term "music drama" comes even closer. 
>I find Italian operas composed according to the "rules of the art" (I think
>Mozart said something like "In opera, the text must be an obedient daughter
>to the music" - remember, Wagner's doctrines were pretty much the opposite...)
>The musical form is aesthetically very fine and even the theory of music is
>served very well indeed.
>Wagner never had aims like this when he created his dramas. He wanted to
>create the "Gesamtk~nstwerk", a whole new genre of music, text and drama.
>I personally think the drama is served best in his music: his music and and
>librettos are seldom worthy of praise on their own, at times being rather
>poor in fact. But the way he combines these elements into a dramatic whole
>is almost supernatural.
>The music is very often used to describe the atmosphere (or create and add to
>it), to explore the depths of the souls of the characters and expose them,
>to reconsider the elements and the themes of the drama and to remind the 
>listener of the situation. The form comes only second. Of course you might 
>as well argue that if that is the case, is Wagner's music music at all or is
>just "sound effects"... 
>IMHO Wagner's works are amazingly close to movies, which owe a lot to them.
>In fact, I find comparisons with movies much more justified than comparison
>with Italian operas...
>
>The length? Well, I realize that there are some (maybe some 50% of the usual
>opera audience) who can see no point in Wagner's works, whatever the length.
>I do have my theories why this is.
>But please consider this: while Wagner's works _are_ long in minutes, they
>do have something to them - as opposed to so many other works, which are
>plain lengthy but empty!
>

I must agree to this article 4 hours of an italian opera can be very boring,
But I never felt Boring in music dramas like Tristan or Goetterdaemmerung,
but this is only a subjective feeling so the discussion if Wagner's operas
are too long makes so much sense as the discussion if red or blue ist the 
more beutiful colour!

Torsten Hippe
Pinnauweg 24
1 Berlin 37
Germany

E-mail:herbster@cs.tu-berlin.de