HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:58 GMT
Organization: Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan

Chuck Harris writes:
#All my spent brass looks the same.  How would you determine that the cartridge
#wasn't a factory load?  If you point a gun at someone, you damn well better be
#prepared to live with the consequences of your bullet penetrating his body, and
#killing him.

If you did not unload your clip into the perp, I'm sure some analysis of the 
remaining rounds could conclude the with high probability the source of the 
rounds. Although this doesn't confirm where the spent rounds came from, it 
could be enough evidence.  If your clip is unloaded, won't the ballistics
and/or amount of penetration of the rounds give clues as to the load used?
I'm by no means an expert on reloading, but it seems to me that with a higher
charge in the round, there will be more residue, a wider diameter of the brass
(although this is limited by the chamber), etc.  Of course, the difference
between maximum factory loads and maximum handloads would be a bit more 
tricky to determine.  

#If I were the prosecutor, and I saw that the defendant had wiped his
#fingerprints off of the bullets in the "murder" weapon, the first thing
#I would think of is premeditation.

The more I think of it, I think this line of reasoning is valid.  A few people
mentioned this, and I'd rather have to defend myself on self-defense grounds
than on premediation grounds.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Janeczko               |   Environmental Research Institute of Michigan
Research Scientist             |   P.O. Box 134001
internets:                     |   Ann Arbor, MI 48113-4001
 janeczko@erim.org             |   Phone: (313) 994-1200 x2676
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	 "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."


--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Janeczko               |   Environmental Research Institute of Michigan
Research Scientist             |   P.O. Box 134001
internets:                     |   Ann Arbor, MI 48113-4001
 janeczko@erim.org             |   Phone: (313) 994-1200 x2676
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	 "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE : good, bad and ugly
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:36 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> Shotgun : S.P.A.S 12 with the folding stock.

 Looks like the SPAS is the runaway winner in the "ugly" and "menacing"
categories.


 Like many people, I first saw one when Arnie brandished a SPAS-12 in
"The Terminator."  My buddy Jay liked the looks and promptly bought one.
Remember the scenes where Arnie is waving it around one handed?  It's a
helluva heavy firearm, right?  Turns out the folding stock has a nice
little "carry handle" which, when folded out properly, makes a hook that
goes under your forearm to hold the barrel up.  With the hook,
one-handed theatrics are easy, even for my wife.  And given the weight,
it's easy to shoot one-handed too.  (even for my wife)

 Next time we saw "The Terminator" we sniggered a bit about the
bodybuilder guy with the cheater hook.  Then we noticed that Arnie
wasn't using the hook - he REALLY WAS waving the thing around like a
balsa wood prop.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: BEST SHOTGUN DEFENSE ROUND?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:42:04 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <93019.131416FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, by FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU:
# I'm sure that this has been discussed earlier but after shooting in some
# 3-gun 'tactical' matches at Chabot Gun Club I believe that a 3" shell with
# #4 buck shot is the best round.  The reasons? At the longer distaces 50+ yds
# you have a better chance of hitting a bad guy with the greater number of
# pellets in the magnum round.  If you go to 00 buck you have too few pellets
# and with slugs you have to aim carefully.  The drawback is that these 3"
# shells really kick.  Any comment?
# 

Au contraire, If you _know_ your target is going to be 50+ yds. away, the
bigger pellets (.30?) or slug should be better.  those .25 (?) cal. #4s
lose their energy pretty fast.

'Course, in many jurisdictions, there will be some hard questions asked
about why you shot someone who was over 50 yds away and whether he was,
indeed, a threat to you.  (With the possible exception of farmers and
other rural people.)
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: H.S.Doyle@newcastle.ac.uk (H.S. Doyle)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: good, bad & ugly
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:43 GMT
Organization: Computing Laboratory, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU.


The meanest-looking gun has to be the GEC Minigun (7.62mm NATO). All you have
to do is look down the six barrels to start shaking.

Harry.
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:34 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <19609@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#
#In article <28549@sybase.sybase.com> mtxinu!sybase.sybase.com!thorick@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Thorick Chow) writes:
##WHy is it that many pistol target shooters put their non-shooting
##hand in their pockets ?
#
#It seems like a good place to put it.  TV technicians working around
#high voltage keep one hand tucked into the belt behind their backs..
#
#I think your real question is, why are they shooting one-handed?
#That must be because the official rules of their particular competition
#require it.  Of course for defense shooting one uses both hands by
#preference.
#
#[MODERATOR:  Another consideration.  Folks with a, hmmm, curvaceous 
#figure like mine tend to be front heavy.  Standing with one's arm 
#straight out holding a few pounds of pistol can further throw off
#one's center of gravity.  Anything to get my weight off on the other
#side for counterbalance is desirable.... (for precise balancing I 
#suppose I should stuff a couple of pizzas in a backpack....)]

It's a shooting (stance) style. I was at the range when a couple of guys
came in to shoot a Glock .40, and that was the "style" they used. The
security patrol guy stopped in, and he commented on it; he told me
the name of it, but I can't remember what it was. It seems like it's
a German style, but I may be confusing that with the comments about
how their full-length leather coats made them look like Gestapo
agents. :-)

Their groups weren't bad, considering the pistol they were using ;-),
but it wasn't competition quality.

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is this corrosion?......
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:31 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

mjm3170@zeus.tamu.edu (MATTSON, MATTHEW JUL) writes:

#He has noticed that his FEDERAL 9mm ammunition has a greenish, stick 
#residue left on it after a few days on duty (police officer) and was wondering
#if anyone knew what was causing it.

#Could this be a reaction with the chemicals in his leather holster, etc.?

	That's the best bet.  Leather, especially if it's not been polished
and coated with mink oil or the like, tends to do this sort of thing.  It
can be taken care of by keeping the holster in a non-humid environment and
polishing it.  Use shoe polish, buff it with a clean cloth and later with
a nylon stocking if you want it to really shine, and then coat with mink
oil once a month or so.  Holster leather is no different than shoe leather
in most regards, so the same stuff works.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
From: U28037%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Jason Kratz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:34 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <4380@eastman.UUCP>, (MJ) says:
#I think the following is the bottom line between the two guns:
#
#1)  Many will not be able to get by the cost of the SIG.
#2)  Many will not get by the trigger of the Glock.
#3)  Many will not get by the looks of the Glock.
#
Maybe I am the only person on here who doesn't think this way.  I think the
Glock looks REALLY cool.  I guess Hollywood likes them too cause I've seen
them in several movies.  The other thing that totally amazes me about the Glock
is how light it is.  That's just my opinion tho......
#
#MJ
#
Jason Kratz
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ohio Handgun Competitions Feb/Mar (part 1 of 2)
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:37 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])


                                 1993 Schedule
                        Ohio Handgun Competition Events
                            Updated: 20 January 1993
                                  Page 1 of 2


This schedule  is based on best available information.  Always contact the
event sponsors to confirm this schedule prior to making plans. Corrections
and additions may be sent by mail to Jeff Maass, P.O.  Box 21893, Columbus
OH 43221-0893, or  sent  as computer EMAIL to jamaass@bluemoon.uucp.

This schedule may be  freely  copied  and  distributed.  Please  keep  the
information above intact to permit corrections and additions.


Date        Day       Time    Competition Type             Location

January 23  Saturday  10 AM   NRA Action Pistol            Circleville

February 7  Sunday     8 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoors)         Toledo
February 7  Sunday            NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   Canton (1)
February 7  Sunday            NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   Cincinnati (2)
February 13 Saturday          NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   North Olmsted
February 14 Sunday  9:30 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoors)         Miamisburg
February 14 Sunday     9 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoors)         Wayne Cty, MI
February 14 Sunday            NRA Indoor Bullseye (2700?)  Oak Harbor
February 21 Sunday     9 AM   NRA Outdoor Bullseye (2700)  Milford/Miami
February 21 Sunday     9 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoor)          Richmond IN
February 21 Sunday     9 AM   NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   Grove City
February 27 Saturday  10 AM   NRA Action Pistol            Circleville

March 7     Sunday    10 AM   USPSA/IPSC                   Circleville
March 7     Sunday     8 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoors)         Toledo
March 7     Sunday            NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   Cincinnati (2)
Mar 12-14   F, S, Sn          NRA Outdoor Bullseye Open    Cincinnati (3)
                               Sectionals (2700)
March 13    Saturday          NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   North Olmsted
March 14    Sunday  9:30 AM   USPSA/IPSC                   Miamisburg
March 14    Sunday     9 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoors)         Wayne Cty, MI
March 14    Sunday            NRA Indoor Bullseye (2700?)  Oak Harbor
March 21    Sunday     9 AM   NRA Outdoor Bullseye (2700)  Milford/Miami
March 21    Sunday     9 AM   USPSA/IPSC (Indoor)          Richmond IN
March 21    Sunday 10:30 AM   USPSA/IPSC                   Ashland KY
March 21    Sunday     9 AM   NRA Indoor Bullseye (1800)   Grove City
March 27    Saturday  10 AM   NRA Action Pistol            Circleville


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: SPAS-15?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:17 GMT


#  Anyone ever heard of a SPAS-15?  Could you give me some specs?

Can't give you specs, but the SPAS-15 was more or less a magazine-fed
SPAS-12.  Very, very few were imported before the BATF said, "no more."
Blue Book says this has already driven the price up to over $2000, if
you can find one.

Rob
From: cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: To Drop Or Not To Drop ( was: Re: To buy or not to buy ? )
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:57:01 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# 
# I have been seeing this girl for a short while. She grew up in a Michigan
# rural area and is an attorney ( not my favorite type though ). Recently,
# I found out that she used to a DA ( the anti-gun type ) and still has
# a *VERY* strong prejudice against handguns. 
# 
# She even hates my security alarm and comments that I'm paranoid to
# have all these things installed. Her reasoning is that no one is going
# to bother me, and my guns will only hurt myself. She claims that she has
# shot .22 rifles before. ( So, taking her to a range will not help at all. )
# She points out that I'm living in my own "jail" by having all these
# motion sensors and by having the "fantasy" of arming/defending myself.
# 
# So, do I have a solution to this problem? Guys?
# 
# David
# -- 
#  K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | IEEE Member, NRA Member, HAM Operator

	I find this kind of surprising if she used to be a DA.

	When she prosecuted all of societys miscreants -- WHERE DID SHE THINK
ALL OF THEIR VICTIMS CAME FROM???

	Were they a special class of people of which you are not a member?
Are the two mutually exclusive? If so, what is the distinguishing factor
so that I can make sure that I am in the "right" group.

	If anything, she should have known that criminals will victimize
anyone if they think they can get away with it. Nice people are crime 
victims too.

	Or is having a few human casualties in the quest for a more perfect
"society" considered acceptable losses for today's new-age political correct
liberal think.  [Apologies to classical liberals who may be r.g readers.]


	P.S. Somehow -- considering that you are telling a worldwide discussion
group about your dilemma -- methinks that you have already decided what to do.

-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
From: x91karpinski@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HELP** 9mm vs. 38Super!!!!!
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:27 GMT
Organization: Western Michigan University

Hey

I am considering the purchase of either a 9mm or 38super
pistol.  Has anyone had any experience with the 38super, I know
it is a popular target round.

I am considering SIG as the manufacturer for either gun.

I would appreciate any suggestions.  I will be using the
gun for self defense as well as non-competetive target shooting.

Thanks in advance.

Chuck

X91karpinski@gw.wmich.edu
From: oreagan@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Oreagan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: buying outside of state
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:00:26 GMT
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD


It is legal to purchase shotguns and rifles in VA.  if you live in a
border state but they can't sell you handguns. This from a VA gun shop
last weekend where I (MD resident) saw a used handgun I was interested
in. One data point.
Bill O
From: erico@squirrel.pen.tek.com (Eric Oosterhof;627-4329;47-786;tekig1.pen;)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Cleaning Rod
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:39 GMT
Organization: tektronix


In article <1jum9jINNgvu@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bd474@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill McDonald) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> I was looking closely at an SKS the other day and wonder how the
|> designer intended the cleaning rod to be used.  It's too short to go all the way
|> through the barrel, but has screw threads on one end, as if it was
|> supposed to be attached to another device/rod (perhaps a separate piece of
|> field gear?) to make a full-length cleaning tool.
|> 
|> Does anybody know how a soldier in the field made any good use of this
|> apparently too-short rod?
|> 
|> McD

In the butt of my newly purchased SKS, there is what is called a "Field
Expedient Cleaning Kit" which includs a brush and a cleaning tip that
screw into the end of the cleaning rod.  However, it is STILL too short.

I intend to get a longer cleaning rod...


-- 
Eric Oosterhof                "Gentlemen, I have the utmost confidence 
erico@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM       in your ability to perform...
(503) 627-4329                 the impossible!"  Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"Choosy mothers choose .gif"  Anthony C. Zable
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:59:54 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co

mac@cis.ksu.edu (Myron A. Calhoun) writes:

#basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
##callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
##>>...  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
##>>around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads...

#For my around-the-house protection .357 Magnum pistols I use
#"POLICE CARTRIDGES .38 SPECIAL" (that's the writing on the box)
#manufactured by 3-D INV., INC., Doniphan, Nebraska.
#(For the curious, they are 158 Gr. Lead Round Nose.)
#--Myron.

I used a "layered defense" technique... well, sorta.  .357 magnum, first
two rounds are Glazer safety slugs, for political correctness reasons, that
and they are supposed to be safer for innocent bystanders because of their
penetration characteristics.  Second two are 125gr remington scalloped JHP's,
supposedly a very common police rounbd.  Last two are 158gr Federal Hydra-Shok
cartridges.  All of these are .357, not .38 special.  Hopefully, I'll never
have to use any of them.   

-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, 
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H. L. Mencken
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Handgun stopping power. The velocity myth
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:36:06 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <MAILQUEUE-101.930125134913.352@english.as.ua.edu> DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:
#Actually, to be more specific, I think we can think of it
#as a bullets momentum density (the momentum of a bullet divided by
#its frontal area), and not bullet "energy".
#Anyone have anything to add??

(a) Velocity is a vector (i.e. directed) quantity as is momentum; what
people really should be using the the magnitude of the momentum, or
mass * speed.  (Speed is the magnitude of the velocity.)

(b) For the same mass, cross section, and speed, two bullets can still
produce remarkably different results depending on their construction,
for example FMJ vs. HP.  All these attempts to reduce the issue to
mere kinematics are simplistic.

(c) Unfortunately, no simple model or laboratory test can exactly
replicate "combat" conditions.  We used to shoot animal carcasses, as
the test environment most feasible near actual intended usage, but the
press found out about it and as a result of the uproar we now have to
use less reliable (albeit more reproducible) empirical test procedures.

(d) Under even ideally controlled test conditions, behavior varies so
much that no simple model accurately predicts ballistic behavior over
a wide parameter range.  We've developed elaborate, extensive computer
simulations running on supercomputers, calibrated by comparison with
an immense amount of test data, and still don't get perfect predictions.

(e) An alternative is to collect data from actual usage, i.e. shootings
of assailants, analyze that, and correlate observed results with round
characteristics.  The only such published study I know of for handgun
shootings (Marshall & Sanow) has been criticized for perceived problems
with its methodology; to give it due credit, though, it is really tough
to try to extract the desired information from the records that were
made without that application in mind.

(f) Additional information, that one should give less weight to than
controlled testing by experts or analysis of shooting incidents, comes
from personal observation of medical, law enforcement, and military
personnel who have considerable, varied first-hand experience with the
results of shootings.  Mostly, though, especially with modern military,
only a limited range of ballistic parameters are encountered, so the
judgement would be based on some subset of all available rounds,
weighted in some fashion by the frequency with which they were seen.

(g) Under the above circumstances, one's best policy is probably to
take into account all rational sources of information about ballistic
performance, not taking any one piece of evidence too strongly.  If a
particular round is widely viewed as having good stopping abilities
using several different means of judging its performance, then it
would be reasonable to have confidence in it, and conversely.
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: BEST .32 defense Round?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:47 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


->      For home protection use, taking into consideration walls,
->      richochet, velocity, ballistics, etc... what would be
->      a good round to use in a .32 (Davis-P32) that has approx. a 3
->       inch barrel...?

 Wow.  That's not a whole lot of cartridge for a deadly force situation,
though I imagine the bang would be impressive enough in a closed space.

 You could get hollowpoints in the correct .312 caliber and handload
your own, assuming you're equipped to do so.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Simple Reloading Bench
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:00:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9301181937.AA26058@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
#
#
#I thought I'd add this to the reloading bench thread.  I have built a very
#simple reloading bench for next to nothing.
#

A cheap and effective reloading bench is an old, even abused
full sized wood or Steelcase type office desk.  You can buy
them inexpensively at flea markets or second hand furniture
stores.  Putting components in the drawers weights it down
so it doesn't move during reloading.  Bolt the loader into
whichever side you want (you may need to remove the top drawer)
and you're ready to go.  No construction etc. and you can move it.

BDW

(Workmate plans deleted)