From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Abortion and Infanticide
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:34:09 CDT

In article <1992Jul28.202846.22847@ncsu.edu> dsh@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.105456.23402@hemlock.cray.com> 
>mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson) writes:
>
>>dsh@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>
>>>>> But why doesn't the fetus enjoy the same right to bodily autonomy?
>
>>>> In the first place, it is difficult to imagine a
>>>> self-governing or self-directing state for an entity
>>>> which is completely contained within the body of
>>>> another.
>
>>> Why not?
>
>> Where will it direct itself?  What kind of moral
>> decisions will it make?
>
>The late-term fetus will make the same moral decisions as a 
>newborn infant (if either is capable of doing so, which I
>seriously doubt). They are essentially identical entities. 
>
No, they are not. There are profound differences in their 
respiratory and circulatory systems, which depend on a
successful parturition.  Not to mention the ability to
move about, which develops very quickly in some newborns.
I have seen a 36-hour-old infant scoot across a Jenny
Lind crib and wedge her head firmly between the bars.
(These cribs were later recalled, for that very reason)
A fetus in utero does not have physical autonomy.
A newborn can also make choices _very_ early on about
how she will relate to those around her--something a
fetus can't do.

>>> Since a newborn infant is generally incapable of enjoying or
>>> expressing such things as 'self-directing freedom', your logic
>>> would require us to deny rights to newborn infants.
>
>> There are limits to the expressions of 'self-directing
>> freedom' that are possible for a newborn.  The possibilities
>> for a newborn are orders of magnitude beyond those of a
>> late term fetus, however.
>
>I don't see any difference between a late-term fetus and a
>newborn baby. They are essentially identical.
>
That's because you ignore the woman in the situation.
They are not identical, and I've seen you offer _no_
proof of this assertion.

>> Also, a newborn baby does not impinge on the bodily
>> autonomy of another.
>
>Define "impinge". Does the mother also impinge on the bodily
>autonomy of the fetus? If not, why?
>
A quick definition: encroach.
No, the mother does _not_ encroach on the bodily
autonomy of the fetus, because it doesn't have any.
How can you fit a fetus into any of the meanings of
'autonomy' listed above?

>>> A viable fetus can be removed from the woman alive and it'll 
>>> become a nursing infant. Is a viable fetus autonomous? 
>
>> Not until it's removed.  
>
>A viable fetus can survive without any one particular host, 
>just like a newborn infant. 
>
No, it can't.  If it's not removed, and the woman carrying it
dies, it dies too, unless it's removed immediately.  When it's
removed, it's a newborn.

>>> If a woman and an infant were isolated from civilization and the 
>>> woman could only offer her breast milk to the infant, then the
>>> infant would not be "autonomous" by Mr. Tjoa's definition.
>
>> Please clarify.  Is there food for the woman to eat or not?
>
>Yes, the woman has food available, but she can only offer her
>breast milk to the newborn infant.

This makes no sense.

>> If not, she can't nurse forever.  If so, she could choose
>> to share the food with the infant, rather than nursing.  Do
>> you really wanna know how primitive baby food got processed?
>
>Are you telling me that a newborn baby can live on solid food? 
>What kind of solid food? Raw meat?  
>
Doug, there are instances where tiny babies, isolated in
survival situations, have been kept alive quite nicely by
being fed food that was pre-chewed by an adult.  I believe
this is still practiced among the Inuit for infants and the
elderly. 

Nursing, when possible, would be a lot less trouble, though.
You know you are conversing with someone more experienced than
yourself with pregnancy and nursing, Doug.  While the babies
in question were very much wanted, there were definitely times
when I felt that my body was violated by the expansion going
on inside.  (like when my ribs were stretched apart from the
inside...)  I never felt that way about nursing.  It was a
very easy, pleasant way to nurture and care for an infant.

I can't imagine why you are being so obtuse about this point.

I notice that you deleted my question about the leash.
Does this mean that we won't be hearing the assertion,
'women and fetuses should have the same rights to bodily
autonomy' from you again?

muriel
standard disclaimer

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity