HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: slaughterhouses (long)
Date: 8 Oct 92 06:20:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

Article 9139 in rec.equestrian:
From: ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring)

>In article <1992Oct7.143622.27327@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>,
>lbm@avs.com (Linda B. Merims) writes:
>> Warning--description of what happens after they go up the
>> chute follows...
>> 
>> This is what the vet told me when I asked him what happens
>> to a horse at this particular packing plant ...

>Are you aware of the fact that all of what Linda wrote in the above
>article is perfectly true for all bigger animals that are killed for
>their meat, too?  Like cattle, sheep, etc.  All the gorgeous steaks

>thing happening to other animals?  What's the difference between the
>killing of *any* horse and the killing of any cattle?

	The difference is that many horses are stolen and sent to
slaughterhouses, I am very nervous about this myself, it doesn't
matter what breed your horse is or how valuable they may be to
a thief for slaughter they are roughly 50 cents a pound.  Also
while horses, cattle and pigs are treated roughly the same when
they arrive at slaughterhouses, which is for the most part not
good, horses are often transported in trucks designed for cattle.
These double-decker cars are too short to allow the horse to stand
upright properly.  The circumstances under which the horses are
transported are terrible, often travelling for days without water
or food.  And unlike cattle bills of sale and other documents are
not required for horses, thus again it makes them ideal for thieves
to transport.
	I read a startling case history in Equus magazine of a 
woman whose horse was stolen along with a friend's out of a 
pasture in California, the horse was then transported to Texas
where she found the horses half-starved in a slaughterhouse feed
lot.  Then the horses were essentially held for ransom by the
slaughterhouse despite her having very complete ownership 
documents!  Rather than wait for the authorities and risk
the horse being killed, injured, or further starved she paid
the ransoms.
	Other histories indicate that this is the norm not the
exception.  For this reason legislation being proposed by groups
such as the Coalition Against the Horse Slaughter Trade are
aimed at more humane transport, requiring water stops, no
transport via cattle cars, and bills of sale, and at stopping the
purchase of stolen horses by slaughterhouses.  This is not crazy
or unreasonable legislation, it is good necessary and long-overdue.

				Tracy and everybody
From: montyb@alpha.aosg.gsf.dec.com (Monty C. Brandenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: Animal Rights bashing
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:04:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AOSG

In article <1992Oct10.045919.16680@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
|> In Article 9185 (1 more) in rec.equestrian pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu 
|> (Sarah Pallas) writes:
|> 
|> >I am quite sure that PETA, CEASE, ARM, Friends of Animals, In Defense
|> >of Animals, the ALF and others have no interest in being "informed" by
|> >anyone.  Their positions are relatively well-thought out, and they
|> >have no interest in softening them.  They would consider your interest
|> >in breeding and riding and showing horses to be highly arrogant and cruel.
|> 
|> 	Well I have some friends who are members of PETA and Friends of
|> Animals, and they don't seem to mind, as a matter of fact one of them,
|> the local ferret expert and rescuer, member of Ferret Friends, has 
|> horses herself!

Yes, and there are wine drinkers in MADD, pro-choice people in the Republican
party, tax-cutters in the Democratic, and condom-using Catholics.  So what?
These individuals are no more policy makers of their organizations than you
are of U of Arizona.

|> >From Michael W. Fox, environmental studies director of the Humane
|> >Society of the United States:  "Humane care is simply sentimental,
|> >sympathetic patronage.  Human beings aren't superior to the other animals,
|> >we're just different."  Humane society literature states that "there
|> >is no rational basis for maintaining a moral distinction between the
|> >treatment of humans and other animals."
|> 
|> 	That does it, now you're saying that the HUMANE SOCIETY is
|> in on it too?!  This is only the finest animal humane organization
|> in the entire country.  Without them low cost spay/neuter clinics
|> would not be available to pet owners across the country.  You have
|> finally dropped off the deep end.  I have been very patient and
|> reasonable when posting to you, yet each time you have inferred that
|> I am some horrible anti-life anti-human, I will not put up with these
|> awful insults any longer.  This is totally unreasonable behavior
|> and does not belong on the net.  From now on if you want to insult
|> me do it by e-mail and stop subjecting the rest of the net to your
|> ravings.

That does it, now you've demonstrated that you aren't even aware that there
are *two* Humane Societies in the US.  There is the HSUS as mentioned
above with is one of the rights groups and the other, the American Humane
Society I think, which is primarily a welfare group and operates those
beloved clinics.

You may have been patient but you haven't been reasonable.  You're provided
misinformation, argument from authoritiy, and proof by example and all have
been fallacious.  IMHO, you've been spouting a lot of nonsense either from
ignorance or from a need to rationalize.  If the former, you might want to
make an effort to become better informed on the subjects you hold dear.

					M
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Slaughter Houses (LONG)
From: <KROBIN@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 09:54:44 EDT
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

In article <L4P74TF@math.fu-berlin.de>, ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring)
says:
 
>Are you aware of the fact that all of what Linda wrote in the above
>article is perfectly true for all bigger animals that are killed for
>their meat, too?  Like cattle, sheep, etc.  All the gorgeous steaks
>on your plates have gone through exactly the same procedure
>
>So, my question is:  why are people so shocked when they hear about
>horses being slaughtered, but don't give a damn about exactly the same
>thing happening to other animals?  What's the difference between the
>killing of *any* horse and the killing of any cattle?
>
>If your talking about your *own* horse, your long time friend, the
>whole thing is clear.  But *generally* speaking, if it's because of
>the special kind of relationship you can develope with a horse in
>general -- if you care enough, you can develope a relationship of the
>same quality with a cow or a bull as you can with a horse or a dog.
 
I agree.  I am VERY attached to a bottle calf I raised.  I raise a
calf out of her each year, but send her to slaughter - NOT!
 
But if I had to have her destroyed for some reason, I vote for the
zoo.
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Support against Inhumane Slaughtering
Date: 7 Oct 1992 18:01:04 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
Keywords: support

In article <1992Oct7.025741.10501@infonode.ingr.com> blythedr@infonode.ingr.com (Dennis Blythe) writes:
>
>  Foriegn countries are buying horses at auctions in the U.S 
>and killing them inhumanely over sea's. 
>
>If anyone is interested in helping, there is more on this subject 
>in the nov. issue of HORSE illustrated. Or you can contact the Coalition
>Against the Horse Slaughter Trade, PO Box 907, penngrove, CA 94951
>Or call (707) 762-3644
> 
>  The Coalition offers info on petitions and info on how to support
> the fight against inhumane slaughtering.

Note that the name of this coalition is "Against the Horse
Slaughter Trade", NOT  "Against Inhumane Horse Slaughter".  So I would be
concerned that this group would use donations to fight *horse trade*,
period.  Don't get me wrong, I agree absolutely with Dennis that
inhumane treatment of any animal is abhorrent and should be stoppped
NOW.  But I'm concerned that our $$ might be put to stop our sport and
not just to stop the mistreatment.  Dennis, do you know what the
complete agenda of this group is?  And whether they receive any
support from animal rights groups versus animal welfare groups?

Sometimes the animal rightists form fringe groups as a means for
tapping into new sources of funds.  The money often doesn't go to
helping animals as much as into making the group rich and politically
powerful.  That's what happened with Doris Day's animal rights group.
They took all the cash they got and put it into more mailings for more
funds, not spending a cent on the animals.  So they got shut down
since they were claiming to be non-profit. 

Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon)
Subject: Re: half pass vs leg yield (was flying changes)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:52:29 GMT

In article <Bw2CAK.33t@news.larc.nasa.gov>,
patty@alpha.larc.nasa.gov (Patty Howell) writes:
>
>YES YES YES YES YES. Once you have the horse's balance in hand,
>the bending comes much easier.

The funny thing is this: the bend is irrelevant. Most horses are
over'bent' anyway, and need to be taught to be STRAIGHT.

>was the leg yield on the circle. I am coming to realize how *CRITICAL*
>this exercise is. Another one is figure eight at the trot with counter
>flexion (essentially shoulder-fore on a circle).

Are you talking about what I call a "counter-bend"? In other words,
a circle with the horse bend the "wrong" way?

> There are two reasons
>this exercise is critical.
>
>        1. A leg yield is easiest for the green horse. On a circle or
>           serpentine, it is natural for them to swing their haunches
>           out anyway..take advantage of that to teach them to yield
>           sideways to the leg instead of forward. This exercise can
>           also be called a turn on the forehand in motion.
>
>-->     2. It teaches the green *rider* the feel for the bend of the
>           *WHOLE HORSE* instead of just the neck or the hindquarters.

This is so cool -- counterbending is the first time I really
REALIZED how much power I had underneath me. Probably because it's
the first time I felt the WHOLE HORSE.

>Counter flexion in a figure eight

Do you change the bend on each circle, or maintain one bend
throughout the whole 8? The latter is very helpful, in my
experience.

>If a horse is leaning on your hands during these exercises, he needs
>to learn the critical lesson of letting the reins act through his
>body to place him on his haunches.

Are you saying this is something he'll naturally figure out, or are
there things the rider needs to do?

>My my, I do tend to ramble on, don't I?
>
>patty@alpha.larc.nasa.gov

No no, this is great. Thanks.

=gwyn
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Animal Rights bashing
Date: 8 Oct 1992 23:20:18 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Oct8.201317.24883@cascade.Stanford.EDU> king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King) writes:
>
>	Whoa!  The word "rights" has different meanings to
>	different people.  Instead of assuming you (everyone)
>	know what people "mean" by a particular buzzword, 
>	try to listen to what they're saying.  

Exactly, that's why I defined what *I* meant by animal rights, which
is the same definition that most animal rights groups use.  Sorry
if that wasn't clear.  And let me add that I have no problem with
people who believe animals should have equal rights, they are entitled
to their opinion just like I am.  What I object to is the violence
some of them use to gain their objectives.

Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: blythedr@infonode.ingr.com (Dennis Blythe)
Subject: Re: slaughterhouses (long)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:48:03 GMT

>slaughterhouses, I am very nervous about this myself, it doesn't
>matter what breed your horse is or how valuable they may be to
>a thief for slaughter they are roughly 50 cents a pound.  Also
>while horses, cattle and pigs are treated roughly the same when
>they arrive at slaughterhouses, which is for the most part not
>good, horses are often transported in trucks designed for cattle.
>These double-decker cars are too short to allow the horse to stand
>upright properly.  The circumstances under which the horses are
>transported are terrible, often travelling for days without water
>or food.  And unlike cattle bills of sale and other documents are
>not required for horses, thus again it makes them ideal for thieves
>to transport.
>	I read a startling case history in Equus magazine of a 
>woman whose horse was stolen along with a friend's out of a 
>pasture in California, the horse was then transported to Texas
>where she found the horses half-starved in a slaughterhouse feed
>lot.  Then the horses were essentially held for ransom by the
>slaughterhouse despite her having very complete ownership 
>documents!  Rather than wait for the authorities and risk
>the horse being killed, injured, or further starved she paid
>the ransoms.
>	Other histories indicate that this is the norm not the
>exception.  For this reason legislation being proposed by groups
>such as the Coalition Against the Horse Slaughter Trade are
>aimed at more humane transport, requiring water stops, no
>transport via cattle cars, and bills of sale, and at stopping the
>purchase of stolen horses by slaughterhouses.  This is not crazy
>or unreasonable legislation, it is good necessary and long-overdue.
>
>				Tracy and everybody


  The coalitions efforts are already showing signs of success. They
wrote, supported, and helped pass a bill in California last year.
It is the Equine Protection Act. The bill helps keep stolen horses
from ending up butchered by placing a paper trail on horses sent
to slaughter houses. This is a big step on improving this awful
situation. I hope in the near future all states will have this bill.

        Pam
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring)
Subject: Re: Slaughter Houses (LONG)
Organization: Free University of Berlin, Germany, Computer Science
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:20:48 GMT

I just started reading the news here, so please don't flame me in case
my remarks seem out of place.

In article <1992Oct7.143622.27327@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>,
lbm@avs.com (Linda B. Merims) writes:
> Warning--description of what happens after they go up the
> chute follows...
> 
> This is what the vet told me when I asked him what happens
> to a horse at this particular packing plant ...
> 

I love horses (but then actually I love nature all together).

Are you aware of the fact that all of what Linda wrote in the above
article is perfectly true for all bigger animals that are killed for
their meat, too?  Like cattle, sheep, etc.  All the gorgeous steaks
on your plates have gone through exactly the same procedure (set aside
your religion may demand different methods of killing).

So, my question is:  why are people so shocked when they hear about
horses being slaughtered, but don't give a damn about exactly the same
thing happening to other animals?  What's the difference between the
killing of *any* horse and the killing of any cattle?

If your talking about your *own* horse, your long time friend, the
whole thing is clear.  But *generally* speaking, if it's because of
the special kind of relationship you can develope with a horse in
general -- if you care enough, you can develope a relationship of the
same quality with a cow or a bull as you can with a horse or a dog.
I was raised on a farm and I know what I'm talking about.

I'm looking forward to receiving your comments.

-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rod J. Ring				If you can take it to water,
Institut fuer Informatik		and force it to drink,
Freie Universitaet Berlin, FRG		it isn't a horse.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: kris@boi.hp.com (kris troxel)
Subject: Re: Slaughter Houses
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:45:04 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

I used to work as an inspector for the USDA at a cattle slaughter house,
it comes from having a degree in Animal Science. Anyway, an animal that
is put down by a vet and sent to a rendering plant can't be used for dog
food. Pet foods are required to meet the same standards for "wholesomeness"
and suitability for human consumption" as do the people foods. A study was done 
that showed if all of the pet foods that are consumed were consumed by
pets there would be 3 times the number of pets as there are. Because of
this pet foods have very stringent requirements, they just allow for the 
use of other parts, or non-carcass meats. For an animals remains to be 
considered "wholesome" they must have been killed without use of drugs 
within a certain time frame. Withdrawal period off of therapeutic drugs
are also inforced. 

I know is is not a usual topic for this group, but thought that some 
"experienced" background might help to clear up the confusion. Also, these
rules only hold true for plants that are USDA inspected, which is a 
privelege, not a requirement.
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: sentementality
Date: 14 Oct 1992 18:23:34 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <randiw.3.719019095@dhhalden.no> randiw@dhhalden.no (RANDI WEBERG) writes:

>all a question of money. It's cheaper to transport living animals over long 
>distances(even if some of them are dead on arrival) than frozen meat.They 


Yes, someone else wrote to tell me they had personally witnessed this
type of thing.  Your argument about it being cheaper to ship even if some die
is one I didn't consider.  Yesterday I heard a story about a feed lot
for horses here in Texas.  They would fatten up horses to sell to the
Europeans for meat.  But the financial backing for the yard fell
apart, and the horses were left to starve.  I think many if not most
were rescued and adopted, but it's still horrible to lose even one.
Texas is THE state for shipping horses to Europe, it seems.  I plan to
contact my representatives and ask them what they can do about it, and
I will let you all know what they say (if anything).
In the meantime if anyone has dates, locations, names, etc, post them
so we can use these in talking to politicians.

Sarah Pallas
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Subject: need big non-diesel truck to haul with
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 00:38:51 GMT

I would also like advise on buying a used truck to haul with.  I
currently have a bumper pull two horse miley, but anticipate going
to a four horse stock type trailer at some point.  Currently using a
78 Dud-I mean Dodge I think 1/2 ton which is having problems and is
too much of a wreck to put more money into.

My requirements are that everything basic works, the cab is in good
condition and I need an extended cab with a back seat-no extra
doors.
Thinking of Ford 250's, my friend has one that hauls her four-horse
fine, also 4 bales of hay on top and a camper! But it is a diesel
and I definately (for personal reasons) DON'T want a diesel.  I want
to spend about $10,000.  My husband says we should be able to find
something adequate for $5,000. I keep telling him I need windows
that roll up, a heater that works, windshields that don't leak, and
a speedometer with a needle!  Anyone know the ideal truck?

Please DON'T email to this account-it is his and I sneak on to read
bboards.

Karen
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: blythedr@infonode.ingr.com (Dennis Blythe)
Subject: Re: why don't kids wear helmets riding
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:04:02 GMT


  I don't know why in the world parents don't demand that their
 children wear safety helmets. Most children are top heavy ( their
 weight is in their head ) and when they fall that is what is going
 to hit the ground first. Adult's weight is more centered in their
 hips, so chances are that they are going to fall butt first.
  I need to get myself a helmet and stop procrastinating, even the
 best riders fall.

            Pam Blythe
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: Animal Rights bashing
Date: 8 Oct 92 06:02:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ


	It seems to me that there is a lot of hysteria over "those crazy
animal rights groups".  Fact of the matter is that I support animal rights,
and several others on this group do to.  I don't think that any of us are
crazy yet we still support humane treatment for animals.  The fact of the
matter is that The Coalition Against the Horse Slaughter Trade is doing good 
work and correcting a wrong that many horse people have wanted corrected for 
a long time.  Other groups are doing the same thing.  To lump ALL animal 
rights groups and humane groups under the same "crazy" label is like saying 
that all business people are scum just because a few are.

					Tracy and everybody
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: half pass vs leg yield
Date: 13 Oct 1992 20:49:17 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu

In Practical Horseman, over the last three months, there has been a
series of dressage articles by Betsy Steiner that give some real good
exercises for teaching bending, etc.  Also, Practical Horseman puts
out a booklet called something like "Putting Your Horse on the Bit",
which has pictures of some of the exercises people have been
describing in this thread.  I highly recommend it.

Sarah Pallas


Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: christy@b8.b8.ingr.com (Christine Gammage)
Subject: What to do on a "European Vacation"?
Keywords: Netherlands
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:04:16 GMT

My husband is being sent to the Netherlands for business
and (cost permitting) I am going to go along.  I am 
looking for some suggestions for what I should do/see
while there.

His business is in Nijmegen Nov. 17th & 18th.  Current plans
are to be "over there" from about Nov. 15th thru Nov. 25th.
We may travel (car, rail?) around after his business is completed.

Information about any stud farms, big shows, warmblood auctions, 
etc, would be greatly appreciated.  (Non-horsey activities for
him would also be appreciated. ;)  I understand Germany is close,
so suggestions need not be limited by country.

Castles, keurings (sp?), Amsterdam, museums, stud farms, windmills ...
wow, it's hard to get back to work, now.

Thanks in advance

Christy (& Trouble, who doesn't get to go).