From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:33:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.212038.16946@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
> 
># NOT by definition, no.  How many times do you have to be corrected on
># this before it registers with you?  
>
>You don't seem to understand 

No I understand you very well, Danny.  With all due respect, either
we're having a serious communication problem here or you're simply
trying to be slippery.

>what I am saying, so I will repeat it
>more clearly.
>
>FACT: a child of a Moslem father does not have to formally convert
>      in order to become recognized as a Moslem.

convert from what?  As I said, he's presumed to be Muslim, just like the 
child of a Christian/Hindu/etc is presumed to be Christian/Hindu/etc.
The point is that unlike Judaism, a Muslim is defined by his/her
religious beliefs and performance, not by the fact that his/her father/mother
happens to be a Muslim.  The moment this child rejects the the Islamic faith 
and fails to fulfill his religious obligations, he is no longer considered a
Muslim.  By contrast, an agnostic born of a Jewish mother is still considred 
a Jew.

>
>FACT: a child of a non-Moslem father does have to formally convert
>      in order to become recognized as a Moslem.
>
>Capich?

Not really.  Let's recall the context.  The discussion centered around 
Wayne's question of whether or not you'd agree with the statement that 
``contemporary definitions of most other major religious groups in the
world are less ethnocentric than those for Jews,'' and that ``Judaism and 
Israel have a strongly ethnocentric component...''  I was basically
responding to your suggestion that the definition of a Jew based on
matrilineal bloodline has its parallel in Islam.   Here is the argument
and the response (both of which you've deleted):

    In article <1993Jan22.141046.2015@cs.brown.edu> 
    dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
    >there is no difference between the two religions in that sense,
    >because the child of a Moslim father is considered a Moslem,
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    NOT by definition, no.  How many times do you have to be corrected on
    this before it registers with you?  Surely, you are not claiming you
    know more about Islam than I do.
    
    As I said before, a child of a Muslim father is *presumed* to be a Muslim,
    but this is no different from the child of a Christian/Hindu/etc father 
    being *presumed* to be a Christian/Hindu/etc.  A Muslim is *defined* by 
    his/her religious beliefs and practices, not by his/her ancestry.
    Islam is much like Christianity in this regard.  By contrast, a Jew is
    defined by his/her matrilineal bloodline; his/her faith or spiritual
    practices are not important at all.  He/she can be an atheist or an agnostic
    and still be *considered* a Jew.   Do you see the difference now?

>
># Surely, you are not claiming you
># know more about Islam than I do.
>
>Now that's just great. So now I can dismiss anything a non-Jew says
>about Judaism, according to this argument? 

No.   But if that person says something that's false and repeated it
again, even after you've corrected them the first time, you may begin to
ask yourself whether or not that person thinks he knows more about Judaism
than you, given that all that he has done was repeat the false claim. 

>Sort of like when you
>quote Israeli newspapers when convenient for you, but when I quote
>from the same newspapers you dismiss them as "unreliable Zionist 
>newspapers?". Sorry to digress, but you seem to have a problem with
>the notion of symmetry.

Sorry to point this out, but the problem lies in your analogy.

>
># The procedure for conversion to Islam can hardly be called "formal".  
># Of course, a person is encouraged to learn more about Islam before
># converting.  But, there is no formal (or informal) educational process 
># that one has to complete.  There is no elaborate, formal ceremony that
># one has to perform.  To convert, you simply approach a Muslim (people 
># typically go to the 'Emam of the nearest Mosque), express your sincere 
># desire to become a Muslim, and verbally declare your solemn belief that
># ``There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.''
># That's it.  It's that simple.
>
>I did not say it is not simple. 

Where did I say/suggested that you claimed "it is not simple"?  Your
claim, which you've conveniently deleted, was that there was ``a formal
procedure for conversion'' to Islam.  That's what I was responding to.
Capich?

>Too bad, however, that so many Jews
>in the past were beheaded, or, if they were lucky, deported, because
>they didn't want to go through this simple process.

It is so nice of you to shift the discussion, by adding this last statement.   
No one here is, indeed no one can, excuse the crimes against Jews that were
made in the name of Christianity/Islam/etc  in the past or in the future.

So, let's turn this around.  The Palestinians are being denied their 
political and human rights, killed, deported, and terrorized (the occupation
is the highest form of terrorism, IMHO) today.  The question now is this:
are you willing to acknowledge the crimes and work to stop the injustices 
against the Palestinian people which are being perpetrated, today, in Israel,
by zionism (which is a setller colonialist movement) all in the name of
world Jewry and Judaism?  Do you, Danny, support, and are you perpared to 
work for, total and genuine equality between Jews and non-Jews who live in 
Palestine/Israel today?

>-Danny Keren.

Waleed Muhanna

-=-
"the man dies in all who keep silent in the face of tyranny"
			Wole Soyinka, Nobel Laureate.