HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:32:48 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1jv1vuINN9q7@news.aero.org>, dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
|> 
|> There seems to be an impresion in this news group that the use of the 
|> name "Macedonia" by slavic speakers in the area north of the current
|> greek border dates only from about 1940, and is to be 
|> associated with Hitler, Stalin, and Tito.  This is utter nonsense.

I am impressed by the depth of your analysis. Congratulations on your
reasoning. A true scholar, indeed.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:240 soc.culture.greek:12547
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:22:36 CST
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Cro)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: National Geographic Feb 1923

I found something of intrest that will undoubtedly help my Macedonian
comrades. I found this in the Feb 1923 issue of The National Geographic
Magazine.

In it there is an article entitled "The Battle-Line of Languages in Western
Europe"

in the article it states about Thessaloniki :"At its very gates are found
Macedonian peasants whose slavic speech..." (pg 151)

Again you will find it in "The National Geographic Magazine" Feb 1923, pg 151.

Good luck

-Cro
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS)
Subject: Re: language questions
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:05:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.180135.8282@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>What language do the people of the Greek province of Macedonia speak?


	Greek. The language that has been spoken in Macedonia for 4000 years.

>
>What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?
>

	Slavic. 


Dimitri


***********************************************************************
		Knowledge itself is power!

		...forgive them Father.  They know
		   not what they speak of!

***********************************************************************

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: language questions
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:01:35 GMT

What language do the people of the Greek province of Macedonia speak?

What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?

What language do the people of western Bulgaria speak?

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas)
Subject: Macedonia should not be recognized (Re: Macedonia should be recognized)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:35:09 GMT


I think Skopje should not be recognized because there is still a
question of it's treatment of the Serbian minority and the other
minority groups living in the region. This is precisely the reason there
is war in Bosnia today.

My family lives very close to this region and I don't want to see war
there.

Skopje should make every effort to first resolve all issues of minority
rights and territorial claims as well as concerns of its neighbors of
the country's name.

So far the response from Skopje to Greece's concern has been similar to
some of the participants in this discussion: "it is absurd, etc."
Obviously if Skopje wants to prosper it will need Greece (and Greece
will need Skopje). The two groups really need to sit down and have a
dialogue.

-Jim.

--
	***  James Tsillas  jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu   ***
	***      Work: (508)898-2800, Home: (617)641-0513        ***
	***        "He is after me. Jim is after him."           ***
	***            - Hop on Pop, Dr. Seuss                   ***
From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: New Nat'l Geographic Atlas
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:30:24 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <C1H3Jx.35v@news.iastate.edu> oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin) writes:
>In article <JTSILLA.93Jan25175748@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan25.120756.19778@husc3.harvard.edu> lublin@husc8.harvard.edu (David Lublin) writes:
##
#   
##.... deleted
##
##Greece has no concern over the nationalists in Macedonia. What we are
##deeply concerned about is that Macedonia will seek to recruit the help
##of Turkey in "liberating" the rest of their "homeland". Greece has alot
##to fear from Turkey with its million-man standing army. I don't agree
##that a country has the right to name itself anything it wants when
##nationalists intend to use that name as a weapon to compromise the
##security of another country. There's alot of evidence this is the case
##(several postings have shown this evidence).
##
#
#What makes you think that Turkiye would want to spread Turkish blood for the
#"liberation" of Macedonia? I believe as a country fulfilling every
#legislative requisite, Macedonia has the right to her name and most of all,
#to be recognized internationally. Be that as it may, there is no reason
#Turkiye should cultivate interest in their conflict with Greece.

I think this is a foolish statement. Turkey has shown to have "expansive"
plans (Cyprus case) and it certainly has shown "interest" in the eastern
Aegean islands in the past (12-mile zone issues if you recall).

It would very well be in its interest to support the M. province in
"liberating" itself, since that would open a warfront for Greece. Now jugding
from history, no one has succeeded in winning a war with two fronts, for
example Hitler and the Nazi Germany. Turkey could use this to force Greece
to fight war on two fronts, one with the M. province, the other with Turkey
in the Aegean which would certainly be a call for total disaster on Greece's
part.

Going back to the question "why would it shed any blood", you answer it now.

Tasos
From: sutin@ra.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 19:40:02 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
Distribution: alt
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <1993Jan21.034845.29281@athena.mit.edu> aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos) writes:
>In article <1jk74rINNpi@NYAYA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU>, reinitz-john@cs.yale.edu (John Reinitz) writes:
>|> the United States of Mexico.

>You're WAY off. Ill give you a much better example. Its like Mexico gets 
>partitioned and the northern section of it decides to call itself Texas. 
>They call themselves Texans and they start talking of an oppressed 
>minority of Texans in the United States who are not allowed to 
>speak their native language. They issue money with pictures 
>from Dallas and Houston and they talk about one day uniting all of Texas.
>Get the picture?  

>|> Chauvinist sentimentality can lead to cities reduced to rubble.

>And historical ignorance can lead one to make a fool of himself in public. 

You should speak.  Texas was originally all land north of the Rio Grande.
When New Mexico was separated off as a territory, the Texans were pissed
off, and later invaded, but were forced back by federal troops.  Does this
anaology sound familiar?

Historical ignorance can lead one to make a fool of himself in public. 

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:56:53 GMT

Hariklia Delta (deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu) writes:
>There are many "Anthens" in the world (ancient state, capital of Greece, one
>in U.S.A., etc) but when someone mentions Athens (with no other specification)
>he means the capital of Greece.

Have you tried that in Atlanta?

>;And the name of an independent state.
>
>No, it is not.

Well, unless Greece or Serbia has invaded since last time I looked,
it is.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
Subject: Re: Ancient Macedonian Cities (was Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:46:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.032051.25864@ultb.isc.rit.edu> vrm5180@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>dear honorable gentlemman,
>the northern territory that you are referring to is an independent nation. 
>as a Macedonian Kingdom with Slavs as a prodominant ethnic group in it.
>
>,ith respect.
>Viktor Mizo  

Macedonian kingdom?  What are you reffering to?

James Dimarogonas
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:195 soc.culture.europe:11393 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10685 soc.culture.greek:12499 soc.rights.human:4976 misc.headlines:7560 soc.culture.bulgaria:2144 soc.culture.turkish:14951
From: sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.rights.human,misc.headlines,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: New Itemised System for Telecom Australia Calls to Macedonia.
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:20:52 GMT
Followup-To: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu

New Itemised System!

Telecom Australia - Australian and Overseas Telecommunications Corporation
Limited is one step ahead of the Government.

TELECOM itemise the international telephone calls to: Skopje, Veles, Bitola,
Ohrid, Tetovo, Gostivar, Debar, Shtip, Kumanovo, Strumica or any other place
in the Republic of Macedonia (389*) as clear as fmr YR Macedonia.

Real professionals.

***************************************************************************
"I understand the world only as a field for cultural competition between
the nations " GOCE DELCEV (1872-1903)
***************************************************************************


Sasa.
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek
From: mpoly@panix.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Subject: Re: Neo group gia Makedonia !!!
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 05:02:12 GMT


In <1993Jan26.052034.27450@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:

>	Se ena message pou ekana reply, ena apo ta news groups htan 
>alt.news.macedonia !!
>	Twra ti kanoume; Hsws na pame ekei mexri o Arxid na to brei :-)

>		Giorgis
>PS: To news group omws den to labenoume edw.
 
 Poly aplo. Makedonia = Ellas. Swsta? Loipon, oti afora thn Ellada, prepei
ne topoqethqei kai sto alt.news.macedonia. Idiws an einai grammeno
sta Ellhnika. 

 Opws lene oi Amerikanoi: Parte lemonia kai kante ta lemonada. Anti gia
anqellhniko, as kanoume to a.n.m. ellhniko.
 
>PS: To news group omws den to labenoume edw.    

Bale to sthn grammh Newsgroups: outws h allws. Qa topoqetiqei sto a.n.m.
An exeis problhma me to Newsreader soy, pes moy. Yparxoyn lyseis. 

Oloi mazi me mia pnoh: AEEERRAAAA! H Makedonia einai Ellhnikh!

Mixalhs.
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:11:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca> viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca writes:
>You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece never
>conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we return
>the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks speak
>Macedonian.

	I agree...let's return the borders to where they were, but let's 
continue speaking what Phillip spoke: Greek.
From: ehganm2@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Nikolay Mehandjiev)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: language questions
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:38:58 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <Jan24.215944.27642@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:

 >Nikolay Mehandjiev is honorable enough only to speak half the truth so let me
>add what's missing here:

Firstly, USENET is exactly for that - every side to tell their half of
the truth, so we can get the whole picture.  Secondly, I would refrain
from personal remarks - if I want to look "honorable enough".

>And of course, as you may know Nikolay, we are talking about a group of
>how many? 5-10,000 people? In a nation of 10,000,000? Hardly a "whatever"
>minority as your friends in the FYRM claim.

The Enthnologue lists 180,180 speakers of "Macedonian" in Greece, citing a
1986 census (1.8% of the population).  However, I would not stand firmly
behind these numbers. My point was not to count, but to state the fact 
of the existence of such a group.


>|> >What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?
>|> 
>|> The very old people speak various Bulgarian dialects  [...]
>|> 
>|> After the WWI and WWII the language of R. of Macedonia was changed by
>|> the Serbian and Yugoslav officials.  [...]
>|> 
>|> While the Bulgarian people realise and honour the Macedonian identity [...]
>
>Aha! There's no MACEDONIAN language according to my Bulgarian friend. What
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
>is called MACEDONIAN language was constructed by the communistic regime in
>Yugo after WWI and WWII.

OK, a friend. But where did I state that there IS no Macedonian language?
I stated that it was created, ergo - it EXISTS nowadays and 
we must realise this fact and honour it! 

>Yet Bulgarian people honour the MACEDONIAN IDENTITY of the people in FYRM.
>
>Tell me, Nikolay: how is it possible for an ethnic identity to survive, if

Not to survive, to develop.

>it's not supported by a language of equal ethnical heritage? 

The question of "borrowing" the heritage of bordering nations is a 
completely different story.  I think we have common disapproval of that.

>(And please,
>be prepare to quote references, because when I will start throwing references
>to this group you will need a 100Gbits/sec link to catch up.)

This paragraph reminds me of someone :-).

>Cheers,
>-- 
>Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu

Cheers
Nikolay Mehandjiev  <ehganm2@cs.man.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: agrafiot@wl.com (Dimitris Agrafiotis)
Subject: Re: Ancient Macedonian Cities (was Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Keywords: The real Macedonia 
Organization: Warner Lambert / Parke-Davis
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:52:32 GMT


No offense Leo, but I find this .colostate.edu very amusing!!!

-- 
Dimitris K. Agrafiotis
Computer Assisted Drug Design
Parke-Davis Pharmaceutical Research
(agrafiot@wl.com)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: mdd@dynastar (Marios D. Dikaiakos)
Subject: Re: National Geographic Feb 1923
Organization: Princeton University CS Dept
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:27:17 GMT

In article <93021.112236U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Cro) writes:
>I found something of intrest that will undoubtedly help my Macedonian
>comrades. I found this in the Feb 1923 issue of The National Geographic
 ^^^^^^^^                          ^^^^
>Magazine.
>
>In it there is an article entitled "The Battle-Line of Languages in Western
>Europe"
>
>in the article it states about Thessaloniki :"At its very gates are found
>Macedonian peasants whose slavic speech..." (pg 151)
>
>Again you will find it in "The National Geographic Magazine" Feb 1923, pg 151.
>
>Good luck
>
>-Cro
  ^^^

Oooh!! Take it easy man, Stalin is dead. Lenin too. USSR does not exist
anymore. Even your "comrades" in Skopje declared themselves to be fervent
democrats and capitalists. They went into business; well, not the old
sickle-and-hammer stuff, ya know... They 're doing more profitable things:
drug production. Later, they will sell their land for dumping german toxic
waste. Big $$$ for the "comrades" - misery for the little fellas. But who
cares about them. They were never comrades, and even now, they don't care
about getting someone else's name. They only thing they care about, is food
and peace.

cheers

M. Dikaiakos
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Historians Speak Out!
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:09:47 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1k3qp0INNkcj@news.aero.org>, dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
|> Instead, you have merely furnished an insult.
|> 
|> Shame, shame.

Shame Mr Golber I take not. I am not here to educate people. And in my
original posting there were enough references even for a semi-educated
person to trace the source and the validity of the quote. So, before
jumping in and assume the role of the Big Brother, please make sure you
are aware of all evidences.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Historians Speak Out!
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:38:50 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: midnight.aero.org

In article <Jan26.210947.33304@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <1k3qp0INNkcj@news.aero.org>, dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:
>|> Instead, you have merely furnished an insult.
>|> 
>|> Shame, shame.
>
>Shame Mr Golber I take not. I am not here to educate people. And in my
>original posting there were enough references even for a semi-educated
>person to trace the source and the validity of the quote. So, before
>jumping in and assume the role of the Big Brother, please make sure you
>are aware of all evidences.
>
>-- 
>Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu

Well, I should apologize ... but would you be so kind as to
repost your original posting that contained the references 
from Herodotus?

David Golber
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Politicians speak out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:26:34 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "I believe that Greece  is  right  to  oppose  to  the  name
     Macedonia  [for  the  former  Yugoslav Republic] and I agree
     with Athens.  The reason is that I am aware of  the  history
     ...  The best argument of Greece is history ..."

     Henry Kissinger, during the Conference of the European  Cen-
     tre of Business Managers, Paris, June 1992.
-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: National Geographic Feb 1923
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 06:03:21 GMT



> in the article it states about Thessaloniki :"At its very gates are found
> Macedonian peasants whose slavic speech..." (pg 151)

Can you post the whole article. This issue is quite old and therefor rare.


                                                             --  Xapa
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Erland Sommarskog
Date: 25 Jan 93 12:54:34 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1jva1tINNamb@NYAYA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU>, by tsioutsias-dimitris@cs.yale.edu (Dimitris Tsioutsias):
> So, you have immigrated from scg to alt.news.macedonia now? And as I see
> you still have the same objective view of things when it comes to
Greece                    ^^^^^^^^^^

> and its people.


I think this means how dare you not agree unthinkingly with the Greek
government's propaganda line about Macedonia.

> Is there a bad moment in your past with someone from Greece?
> Maybe a greek woman dumped you?

Depressing how some posters always want to personalise these things. how
can we be sure a Macedonian girl didn't give you the push Dimitris??

Andy
From: bliznako@envmsa.eas.asu.edu (Bliznakov, Plamen)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: language questions
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:03:00 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1993Jan26.182451.18092@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, jmg@bigbang.la.asu.edu (Jonathan Gordon) writes...
> 
>|>
>|>What language do the people of western Bulgaria speak?
>|>
>Macedonian at home, in private.  Bulgarian mostly in public.

Who told you so ?

Plamen
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Organization: College of Computer Science, Northeastern University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:52:54 GMT

Distribution: world
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U



>  There is also the (Belgian) Province of Luxemburg, and the state of Luxemburg.
> They have the same name, because the Province of Luxemburg used to belong to the
> state of Luxemburg before the Belgians stole it from us.
>
>  Could the same have happened to Macedonia? (i.e. both the state and the province
> belonged together long time ago?)


See now why Greece objects? Because in N years people will say that Greece "stole"
part of Makedonia even though it is the other way around. The naming of the 
region is a long story (sorry I don't have time to explain). Read if you are 
interested. I hope you have access to a good library.



                                                        --  Xapa
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Historians speak out!
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:40:43 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <Jan23.052335.34127@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, by irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis):
> o    "That the Macedonians and their kings did in  fact  speak  a
>      dialect  of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowa-
>      days as certain."
> 
>      Errington, Malcolm, "A History of Macedonia", University  of
>      California Press, Los Angeles, 1990.
>      R. M. Errington is a Professor at the University of Marburg.

Well it would be nice to have some proof rather than a bald assertion of
fact wouldn't it, not to mention the fact that quite a lot of modern
ancient historians do doubt just this. Take Prof.s Borza, Badian and
Bosworth to be alliterative. In fact doubts over the Macedonians'
Greekness began with the father of modern Greek historiography George
Grote and have continued ever since.

Andy 
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:242 misc.test:15873