From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Subject: Re: Women-Only / Men-Only Events...
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:56:01 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes...
[JMC>]
goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves) writes...
[WS>]

WS> Unfortunately, many "women's only" events seem to contradict this
WS> noble ideal.  This isn't mean to demean all feminism, but it must
WS> be acknowledged that separatist feminism is hardly the route to
WS> greater understanding between the genders, when their basic
WS> attitude seems like "Men are all bad, so we have to exclude men
WS> from what we do".

JMC> What's wrong with a woman's only event?  Sometimes, because we've
JMC> been defined for a long time by standards that do not adequately
JMC> apply to us, we need to get together without anything else --
JMC> just by ourselves -- and get back in touch with what we are.
JMC> What's wrong with that?
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Usually, nothing, but in some cases, women-only groups *can* be as bad as
many in the women's movement think of men-only groups!

WS> Yo...  I thought that it was considered demeaning to call women,
WS> "girls".  I realise that you may not feel that saying "girls" is
WS> demeaning, but still, I consider the entire phrase "bringing the
WS> boys back to earth" seems to smack of an apparent belief of
WS> moral superiority.

JMC> You can't use that kind of tit for tat argument that "It's bad
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JMC> for women so it's just as bad for men," or vise versa.  I've had
JMC> men say that to

Why not?  Women want fair treatment and the right not to called
demeaning names.  Why should men not receive the same sort of fair
treatment?

JMC> men, about how I shouldn't call them "guys" because *T*H*E*Y*
JMC> can't call *M*E* a gal.  Face it, I'm not saying that men and
JMC> women are "equal."  I'm saying that we are NOT and should be.
JMC> Reasoning like this (and BTW, I'm not fond of "bringing the boys
JMC> back to Earth" either) says that the KKK is just as acceptable as
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JMC> the NAACP.  There is a difference; one was
     ^^^^^^^^^

It sounds as though you are saying that women throwing demeaning names
at men, is as acceptable as whatever means are used by the NAACP to
reach racial equality.  I find it rather disingenuous to compare men
with the KKK and women with the NAACP.  This also seems to indicate a
certain feeling of moral superiority as well.

JMC> lynched, one did the lynching.  It is NOT the same to say "guy"
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JMC> as it is to say "gal."

It seems as though you are saying that women have *never* been
demeaning to men, but *only* vice-versa.  I needn't also remind you
that saying "He started it!" isn't generally a good method of
problem-solving between individuals or indeed, between groups.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
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