From: tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno)
Subject: Re: Experience points for roleplaying (was Re: Levels )
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:38:08 GMT

In article <Bt1Er3.B5J@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.114821.14031@eng.cam.ac.uk> yt1@eng.cam.ac.uk (Y. Tremblay) writes:
> I wrote:
>>>>Part of the reason they've advanced so slowly is that an awful lot 
>>>>of their time is spent pursuing "sub-plots" in my campaign.  This
>>>>involves lots of roleplaying, but doesn't earn them any adventuring
>>>>experience points - although it does gain them valuable information,
>>>>and generally make their lives more interesting and varied.
>>
>>    But, why don't you give any experience for roleplaying, solving a 
>>plot ?  
>
>Because that increases their "wiliness", their "knowlege", and their
>"adventuring experience", but won't make them any better able to 
>swing a sword / cast a spell.  The benefit they get from solving a
>plot is in becoming better players, not in their characters' getting
>more hit points.
>
>>If it is what you want your player to do, then you should give
>>them something for doing it.  
>
>I think that what they get out of it is a highly enjoyable game, where 
>they get to play their characters to the fullest, rather than just
>concentrating on conflicts all the time.  
>
>As for "tangible" reward (if you don't consider enjoyment and satisfaction
>in playing to be tangible rewards), then there's the fact that they learn
>lots of valuable information and gain helpful allies, which make them much
>more "powerful", in the sense of being knowledgeable and having lots of
>influence and political leverage.  Good information can be just as powerful
>a weapon as a +5 flaming sword.
>
>>Players are human, they won't do something 
>>for nothing even if you say that they get advancement in the character
>>concept/personality/background.  
>
>Beg to differ, my player do that ALL THE TIME.  As a matter of fact, we
>had a moment of hilarity a few playing sessions back, when one player
>looked over his "adventuring record", and realized that his party hadn't
>made any money or gained any experience points in the last 8 months of 
>game-time.  Nobody wasn't upset, they thought it was hysterical that no
>one had noticed (they had been too busy pursuing matters of "personal
>interest" to do any real adventuring)...

I agree with you.  The two groups that I have DM'ed for years don't need a
game-incentive for roleplaying-- they just do it because they LOVE to.  Most
of the time they don't evan realize that they're not doing anything to 'earn'
experience points or treasure.  What I do, however, is award a small amount
of experience points (never enough to make to much of a difference) for long
sessions of 'pure character,' since most of my games aren't very treasure or
monster-heavy to start with.  We like to go for pure mood when we can.

>
>My characters tend to spend time doing what people in the real world
>would do - they visit friends, they fall in love, they read books,
>they listen to stories, they learn to play musical instruments, they
>travel, they do all kinds of non-adventuring stuff, that serves only
>to expend the "role playing" aspects of the game, and does nothing
>to earn them money or make them better in combat.  
>

I always envisioned 'experience points' as a measure of a person, not just of
his skill in battle and spellcraft.  Or at least the measure of an adventurer.
My characters are also very human-- and some of them are very flawed.  Every
once in a while, we'll get a newcomer to the group that plays by the numbers 
and wants every adventure to be like the movie 'Willow,' but I think for the
most part, I've been blessed with groups that just like to interact.  They
spend more time hobknobbing and sightseeing than they ever do fighting, that's
for sure!

>>If (in "real life" (tm)) a company offer me a job intellectually
>>interesting but without any salary, I say them: "f***".  I don't want
>>to work in a factory but I want decent wage.  
>
>Well, suppose you could make all the money you needed freelancing as
>an independant contractor, and could have the rest of your time free
>to do whatever struck your fancy - like exploring caves, reading
>Homer, sailing around the world, visiting Paris, or whatever floats
>your boat?  That's analogous to what my players are doing.  They
>do plenty of adventuring, but they actually spend -more- time 
>roleplaying personal stuff about their characters.
>
>>The way you give experience points (IMHO) encourage hack'n slash since
>>it is the only way to get a concrete award.  But maybe you have
>>exceptional players...
>
>Maybe I'm spoiled, and I -do- just have incredible players, who really
>do care more about roleplaying than about powergaming.  I once just
>-forgot- to give them experience points for killing a "true" dragon
>(a beast that makes a monster manual dragon look like a jackrabbit).
>They didn't notice until three playing sessions later (the next time
>that they actually had a battle, and went to update their XP totals).
>
>>>	Yep, they are NOW. But you mention later on that their first
>>>"BIG" adventure was at 8-9th level. Taking the average 7 month
>>>advancement time you mentioned, that means that they were playing for over
>>>FOUR YEARS before doing major adventures.
>
>Well, that was their first adventure that actually made a change in
>"the way of the world".  Frankly I don't think low level characters
>have any business playing a "critically important" role in cataclysmic
>events.
>
>>> I want to be a HERO, not
>>>some apprentice who needs to take enough REAL WORLD time to finish
>>>a bachelor's degree before he can even do something significant.
>
>I suppose it depends what you call significant.  Before taking part in
>world-shaking events, they got involved in such mundane tasks as
>saving their chosen "home town" from an incursion of ogres; finding
>and capturing a mad Druid, who had been raising woodland demons in an
>attempt to "cleanse the forest of the scourge of humanity" (this was
>years before the "green" movement got really popular, too :-); and
>finding and returning the kidnapped daughter of a friendly Elf lord.
>
>I mean, granted, those are only "important" events at a "local" level,
>but they seemed important enough at the time, and the group was very
>serious about, and proud of their accomplishments in the "good old
>days".  If you don't enjoy those kinds of adventures, you probably
>just wouldn't like my campaign.

One of the first adventures my characters were involved in was mapping the
sewers of their home-town.  It took well over three gaming-nights to complete,
since many of the areas had collapsed centuries ago, making progress a crawl.
They ran into a pack of ghouls and had the battle of their lives-- out of all
of the fights they later had (now they're around 8th level or so), they recall
the ghoul-battle most frequently.  They were scared stiff, and milling about
like chickens without heads.  After that one, they spent a week investigating
a rash of bizarre cult murders that sent them headlong into a totally innocent
yet chaotic evil cult of insanity, and finally to the source of the deaths--
one of the party members.  They've also done salvage operations for caravans,
did a little coastal explorations, helped to start a barbarian uprising (an
event which snowballed into a campaign-changing consequence!), and went poking
up and down a river for lost treasure that they never really found.  Not really
the meat and drink of dragon hunting, but great fun nevertheless.

>
>-- 
>Steve Swann                 |    Speak to me in many voices; make
>swann@acsu.buffalo.edu      |      them all sound like one...  -BOC


tom bruno
archaeology
mit