From: cullen@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: The merits of Power amps!  was: Peavey, etc!
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:27:00 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Mark Payne writes:
> Let me try this again....
 
> Hello Mur...

Hi Mark;

>>There, I've gotten through the whole post without being rude or obnoxious,
>>even though Mark is infering that I am an ignorant prejudiced asshole.
>>Prejudiced maybe (who isn't about something), asshole sometimes, but
>>not ignorant by a long shot.
 
> Sorry... My blood got boiling and I forgot to put the "Human Filter" on.
 
> I am sure you are not "ignorant" or "obnoxious" .. I never used these words.
> I am sure that you are prejudiced... but then we all are. The attack was not
> on you personaly but on an attitude that I have seen that your post was in 
> the rough direction of... 

Obnoxious is definitely mine, as I had this urge to be. 8-) Ignorant
is in ref to the comment about "they know shit about sound"
As we all know, lack of knowledge equals ignorance, and I assumed that
I was included by default in the group.
 
> Lets put the Peaveyphobia thing aside because that just gets my prejudiced
> asshole into a spasm and will confuse the point I want to make. This is 
> about technical PA spec requirements from bands and venues...
 
> 1. The first problem I have with the rider thing is that when you are working 
>    at the "one off", none touring end of the PA market, you build a flexible 
>    rig that will do most jobs very well .. Not brilliant.. because there's no 
>    point. You never get the time to get the last 10% of sonic brilliance out

Well, I try if I am touring as the "Band Engineer", and knowing the band, the
material, the this, the that, I for one try to explain the minimum equipment
that I need in the minimum amount of paper.

>    You find the solution Amp/speaker/desk/compressor/processor/graphic etc
                                       ^^^^ 
You can tell that this guy is really posting from the UK, for all you
novice forgers 8-).

>    graphic is a 12 band small "Technics" HIFI unit (horrors ! Where's the 
>    Clark Technic ? what about the headroom ??). The fact is that it works
 
> 2. What business are we in ?? Equipment Hire or Engineered PA. I'm not in 
>    Equipment Hire. Maybe the Technical Rider is really a hire list. I turn
>    up and am reponsible for the production of sound from unloading to loading.
>    If a band/venue want me to drop off a load of stuff to their spec and let
>    them get on with it... This aint for me.

I think of the Production business as a combination of both. The service
you are selling is a package of rented equipment as a system, with people
to ensure that it is set up properly, functions effectively and sounds
adequate. The rider is a best guess (for mine anyway) of what minimum 
equipment standards we need to meet the promoter/ticket holder/patron's
expectations.

Also, an important point for me is that if the promoter decides to buy
the performance and rider, instead of supplying himself, my rider is 
what _Will_ be in the truck. No ifs or buts, maybe some ands. 8-)

> 3. I do most of my work for small bands and Venues (200-700 caps..). The last
>    band I had a real hard time with was "The Power Of Dreams" who had done 
>    a couple of dates with U2. There FOH technical rider was a list of the 
>    gear the was in the U2 touring rig. The Promoter's PA budget was 250 
>    and the venue was 300 strong. We did a good solid 3K with 1.5K foldback
>    and the bands engineer turned his nose up at the subs because he had been
>    using Courts and the desk cause the like to have a gate and compressor 
>    on every channel ("like when we were on tour with U2").

I fell asleep, and dreamt of Neve, SSL, Gamble, Midas......8-)
But, seriously, 250 pounds? that's around 400 CDN! I might be able
to get a small rock kit for one night for 650, but that's calling in big
favours, BIG favours, and I'll still have to get a truck and do the gig
by myself. 

Man, let me tell you, there would be a good possibility of the band 
refusing to play if that was the promoter's budget.

> 4. I never understand Mic Requirements. I can maybe just see the point on 
>    vocals... But who cares what I put on snare ? I'm using Ramsa S2 clip 
>    mikes at the moment cause the quality is nice and it saves on stands..
>    Geoff (?) from Toto (God Rest Him :-() turned me onto these. When I can
>    afford more I'll use them on Toms as well and use the Beyer 201's for 
>    something else. The point is that most band engineers have never seen an 
>    S2 ("oh haven't you got an SM57 ?")... well actually NO I DON'T WHY DON'T
>    YOU TRY THIS FOR GOD'S SAKE YOU SILLY PRAT.. YOU MIGHT LIKE IT !! (I can
>    say these things among Friends can't I ?? because I have to smile and 
>    say nice persausive things to get them to use this brilliant piece of kit.

Well, at your market position (easy to tell I'm a commerce student by day, eh?)
the so-called engineers are very likely happy just to see that familiar piece
of gear, as I'm sure that when they do the big tour, they are allowed to 
unmute the channels they are using, and move the faders, but not to touch
any eq, trim, or the mains. All under the supervision of the pa tech, 
of course. 8-)

> 5. I always make a point of talking to the band/bands engineer befor the gig.
>    I can then find out what the scoop is on the riders.. Often you can clear 
>    things up. The problem is when you are quoting against a job to the promotor
>    who will NOT understand this stuff. You are quoting against a technical 
>    spec I will say.. "look this is crazy.. We don't have this stuff.. this 
>    is waht we do and the price is xxx" but I know another firm will say 
>    "cool no problems .. the price is xxx" and then the turn up with a rack
>    full of Peavey Gear :-).

At which point, band takes the promoter aside, and tells him where to shove
his gig, if they were at all serious about the rider. I mean, even trying to
meet some of the rider is ok, but sometimes its just better to not even bother.

>  Sorry if I offended Mur....

Ahh, I'm a big boy, I can take it. Besides, its exam time, and I'm crabby
and irritable, can't work, and do tend to blather on. 8-)

							Mur
							Cullen@ac.dal.ca
							Cullen@ug.cs.dal.ca
I will be off-line from Dec 19 to Dec 27. So, if you have something
exciting to post, post it now, or mail it to me, so that I can blather 
away when I get back.