From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: MINDWALK - An exercise in Passionate Thought
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:39:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <BzvnCE.Kt2@world.std.com>

9212.29 e.v.


Conrad Johnson writes:

I've read both Capra's =Tao of Physics= and Zukav's =Dancing Wu-Li
Masters=.  Both are good, lively introductions to the Quantum
mystery, but, to my mind, the sections on Eastern philosophy are
neither convincing nor relevant.


Response:

Ok, so what criteria are you using to compare with the Eastern
models and their accuracy?  Have you practiced any mystical exercises?
Have you at least engaged in meditation of some sort?  Were you attempting
to give subjective descriptors objective scrutiny-tests?  If so,
this is futile.  We might as well ask if History 'sounds true'.


Conrad:

As to Capra himself, I don't know whether his forays into mystical
philosophy are better or worse than those of many other reasonable
people.  He's associated with Geoffrey Chew and Henry Stapp at the
Lawrence Berkeley Lab, and he's written some good reviews of their
work in S-matrix theory.  This is a branch of Quantum physics that
seemed central back in the 60's, but has since been almost
completely eclipsed by QCD (quark theory).


Response:

This doesn't sound very logical.  To find out if Capra (OR Zukav) are
being consistent and referencing known theories of mystical, Eastern
philosophy then ought we not reference Eastern mystics?  You seem to
be saying here that his ideas regarding physics are up to snuff, though
perhaps not complete.


Conrad:

...In a nutshell, the idea here is
to give up the traditional picture of particles and fields in favor
of one in which events are fundamental.  What we think of as
particles are only connections between events; as such, particles
don't follow well-defined paths and have no location of their own in
between the events they connect.  The fabric of spacetime is woven
of interconnected events, and the structure of this web is what S-
matrix theory aims to elucidate.


Response:

This does, as perhaps Capra and Zukav indicate, resemble certain
forms of Buddhist and Hindu philosophical explanation.


Conrad:

My own feeling -- and I'm not a physicist, so take it for what it's
worth -- is that there is no sound basis for the traditional view. 

...Also, our philosophical
tradition offers us little or nothing in the way of conceptual
approaches to event-networks, which is doubtless one reason why
Zukav and Capra saw relevance in the Eastern traditions of thought.


Response:

Hmmmmmmmm.  What about Alfred North Whitehead and 'Process Theory'?
I thought there was a very strong Western school which can be used
at least to push off into 'event-oriented' metaphysical models.  No?


Conrad:

My own thinking on this has to do with the question of measurement,
specifically with the idea that an event-net type of structure might
be necessary for any universe in which anything like a measurement
is possible.  I'll follow this up in a later post.  But among other
things, any approach to the world as a network of interaction-events
has to explain how and why such a world ends up =looking= like a
world of solid, permanent objects (like particles) moving around in
a =seemingly= continuous framework of spacetime fields, at least on
a macroscopic scale.  


Response:

An EXCELLENT point.  One I hope that Capra, Zukav and all others who
would argue their models will address.


Thyagi