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X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 11:35:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death

Jeff Sinatra answers Kerry, and I butt in:

>Christ Jesus did not die, because he rose his body from the dead.  His mortal
>body was never alive, and therefore it could have not died.

   Say what??  What are you saying, Jeff?  His mortal body was never
   alive...doesn't that mean that he couldn't have breathed, moved,
   grown, etc.??

> Jesus' true
>identity was unsen to the physical senses--as he said to Peter, "flesh and
>blood hath not revealed this unto you..."

   Could you (or anyone else) please give me the scriptural references
   for this?  I'd like to look this up.

   Vicky
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:44:11 EDT
Reply-To:     ddavidson@cbacc.cba.uga.edu
From:         Dennis Davidson <DDAVIDSON@CBACC.CBA.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Confirmation of the Spirit
X-To:         christia%asuacad@uga.cc.uga.edu

> >He does want us to know more--to know the fullness of the Gospel.  He has
> >made Bible #2 available to all, The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of
> >Jesus Christ.  And He promises anyone who reads it with an open heart will
> >know it to be His word.
>
> No, he has not.  When Jesus came he preached to all - sinners, tax
> collectors, the sick, the rich, the poor, and the apostles and
> prophets.  He told us all we have to know.  There was never a reason
> for another book.  That is saying that when He came he didn't get his
> point across and therefore had to have an addendum.  In THE Bible, he
> told us all we had to know.  There were no secrets.  Everything can be
> known by all, no matter what their status in the community or church.
> We weren't required to attain a level of holiness to complete secret
> rituals that would enlighten us.  Everything was always in the open
> for all to see, nothing was hidden.  Jesus loves us just the way we
> are.  He made us didn't He?
>
> >He left it to Joseph Smith, Liz, who didn't start a new church.  Rather, he
> >restored the ancient Christian Church, with the fullness of the everlasting
> >Gospel.
>
> Doug, the church is the body of believers.  JS didn't start the body
> of believers.
>
Liz, I loved your response, the Bible is the only book to follow.
Galatians 1:8-9 says 'But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any
other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received,let him be accursed.  To see if I
have taken this out of contents, please read the whole chapter. Once again
Liz, stand up for the Word because when God is on your side you are a
majority.
Your servant in Christ,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dennis Davidson, Operational Support    |                               |
| Terry College of Business Computer Ctr. |  ddavidson@cbacc.cba.uga.edu  |
| University of Georgia, ph.(404)542-3821 |                               |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________________________________________________________________
| Jesus said 'You know you are one of my disciples if you have love one  |
| for another'                                                           |
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:58:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Poverty

>Vicky Somebody wrote:
 (Vicky _Chai_  )
>> Jeff, just because most of us believe that poverty is a real, tangible
>> thing does not mean that we also believe that God *created* it.
>
>And I thought it was worth some comment.  In particular, I don't think that
>anybody _really_ believes that poverty is "a real, tangible thing".  It seems
>to me that someone who says that hasn't really thought about it carefully.
>
>Poverty is a concept; it does not exist the way material things exist.

   *Sigh*...I must admit that I have used an inaccurate word to
   describe it -- "tangible."  Allow me to give the accurate
   description of it.

   "Poverty is the state of one who lacks a usual or socially
    acceptable amount of money or material possessions."
   (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.)

    How's that?

    :-)  Vicky
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:27:44 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: your mail
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 15, 92 8:21 am

Steven,
Today has not been a good week, even my faithfull brothers who always
agree with me are deserting me in droves!! :-) (said very much with
tounge in cheek, no offense please!)

>
>Since Ian posted this to the list I'll respond to it.  Also this is kind of
>strange - it's not often I disagree with something Ian says but...
>
>Ian, you seem to be talking about losing salvation and giving it up.  I don't
>believe that salvation can be lost by a believer - whether or not a believer
>can give it up willingly is another question but I don't believe that
>believers can/would give up their salvation either (not 100% convinced yet
>but moving that way more every day...).  I've added an FAQ I did a few months
>ago about losing salvation to the end of this message.
>
Steven,

That is exactly the point I am trying to make..
We cannot lose our salvation, but we can give it up..... Do you agree
with that.. Obviously most people would not want to give up their salvation,
but it is possible that someone who is a born again christian may be
converted to another religion which preaches salvation by another means...
They are inherintly taking their trust away from Christ and putting it on
something else... In that case, the person would probably have lost their
salvation....

(I am not talking about backsliding, most of us do that in some time in
our christian lives, but I am talking about a complete denial in the truth
of the saving sacrifice of Christ Jesus.. Since it is possible, it should
be taken into consideration when people make 'once saved-always saved'
blanket statements)





---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:49:53 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Two different questions
              8 Apr 1992 12:11:44 EST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

ANOTHER POSTING ON ABORTION--

Since we all seem to be having a problem defining even what "abortion"
is, I suggest we go to an expert.  Please recall that, although the
definition I provide was written before Roe, nothing in the practice of
abortion has changed since that time:

   (In reference to "birth control") "[Question] Is it an abortion?
[Answer]  Definitely not.  An abortion kills the life of a baby after
it has begun.  It is dangerous to your life and health.  It may make you
sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it.  Birth control
merely postpones the beginning of life."--from "Plan Your Children for
Health and Happiness," published by Planned Parenthood-World Population,
515 Madison Avenue, NY, 1965.

  Should we take their word for it?  What say you?
                                                  Love and Peace INC,
                                                              ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 11:10:45 EDT
From:         Roberta <ROBERTAS@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request

Hello..... I am very new to this network and want to thank you all for
the inspirational messages which I find very rewarding/refreshing to read
during the day!  I now find myself in a situation that makes me turn to you
for prayer assistance.  I would like to request prayers that I become stronger
in my faith and for prosperity.  I would also like to ask that God's blessings
be with each and every one of you.  Thank you.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:42:00 EDT
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              JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         LIZ MOREAU <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Confirmation of the Spirit

>  The Lord's house is a house of order.  Truth is
>not a mass of confusion.  Even as the Israelites had prophets in olden
>times to help them know the truth, we have a modern prophet and twelve
>apostles to help us determine truth in our day.

Doug, Jesus fulfills this for us, not another human being.  The
Israelites had prophets because the Word wasn't written down.  They
had to rely on the words of other men and thats where they went wrong.
We can't repeat the same mistake.  If these very same men who the Law
was entrusted to printed out their interpretations, it still would of
been false.  That's why you can put your trust in a human being
                            +++

oooppsss!!!  I hope everyone realizes that this typo should read CAN'T
(sorry).

                                        Liz
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:37:22 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Safe Sex #2

Darryl:
AIDS is 100% fatal.  Condoms have a failure rate; with a disease that is
always fatal, the actual number does not matter.  The fact is that there is
only one way to avoid contracting AIDS through sexual conduct:  absolute
monogamy with an uninfected partner (how you know they are is another
question altogether!).

Knowing these things, would you have sex with a person you knew to be
HIV-positive, condom or no condom?

Would you want your children taught that having sex with an infected person
was "safe" if you use a condom?  (Because that is the implication behind the
teaching; that even if you are having sex with an unprotected person, you will
still be safe if you use a condom.  Get real.  Condoms can't even prevent
pregnancy 100% of the time.  And pregnancy doesn't kill you 100% of the time
you get it.)

The Bible condemns fornication.  In addition, it particularly condemns
fornication between two people of the same gender.  I am NOT NOT NOT
saying that God gives people AIDS for doing these things (and don't ANYBODY
say that I am!)  All I'm saying is that living in accordance with Biblical
standards is a heck of a lot safer than so-called "safe" sex!
                                        Love INC,
                                                 ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:19:00 EST
From:         John Ross <ROSSJB@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: re-pro-choice

>>Children are a blessing of the Lord.  No exceptions.
>>    Lonnie Schubert
-------------------------------------------------------
>Hmmmm.
>No IMO or IMHO here.
<<<stuff deleted>>>
>As it has been repeated, and it isn't marked as an opinion,
>it would SEEM to be a genuine dogmatic egotistical statement!
>
>A rare animal indeed, and one rarely seen on a list where such
>care is taken to differentiate between opinion and fact.
>One of for the record books.
>
>   Darryl K. Johnson      >  "It is better to have a     I
>   Texas Christian        <   permanent income than to   I
>   University             >   be fascinating."           I
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Darryl, that was not nice.
I _do_ hope you know the scriptual references he was thinking of.
This may be a stupid question, but just what is Texas Christian
University teaching you?  One would hope that you would have run
across verses dealing with "children are blessings" before this point.

Does your University have you read the Bible?  (Sigh, and I'm not
accusing you of not reading the Bible... I'm just suprised that you
either _don't_ know of Biblical references to those little blessings
or you _are_ feigning ignorance.

The world is roundish.

>Hmmmm.
>No IMO or IMHO here.
>No Biblical evidence.
>No scientific evidence.
>No logical evidence.

Let me say it again, anyway.  The world is roundish.

>As it has been repeated, and it isn't marked as an opinion,
>it would SEEM to be a genuine dogmatic egotistical statement!

Guess so.  Or, _maybe_ we can take _some_ statements as givens?

John
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:44:03 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Should women cover their heads?

Urban Research Institute
Phone: 502-588-6626

Well I'm sure you all will know how I stand on this issue. :-)

jj:
>I am uncertain whether the passage is prescriptive --- is it a sin
>for a woman to come to church with her head uncovered?  I don't know.

Just a thought for those of you believe a woman's head must be covered.
Would you turn away a woman who came to your church without a covered head?
Would you make her sit in the back pew, or would you allow her in the
sanctuary?  Would you take her aside and make sure she understood that
her head should be covered?  Would you only tell her about salvation
once she was properly "covered"?

BTW:  I liked your analysis of the passage, Jeff, and I understood your
original meaning without offense the first time.  But I think that men can
be a symbolic head of women, too.  My marriage is an equal partnership.  My
husband is not my head any more than I am his.  And it works.  And BTW,
long hair is not necessarily a glory for a woman.  My face with short hair
is much more aesthetically pleasing to look at--even my husband agrees. :-)

Brenda
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:18:00 EDT
From:         NWILSON@SMITH.BITNET
Subject:      The Greatest Test

In this academic environment, sometimes I get too caught up in trying to get
perfect grades in the classroom, and don't realize that I haven't been making
the grade in the Throne Room.
Here's something my mother sent me that helped me gain perspective, and re-
member that even when I don't think so, somebody is watching my life.

                        THE GREATEST TEST

        Help me to walk so close to Thee
           That those who know me best can see
        I live as Godly as I pray,
           And Christ is real from day to day.
        I see some once a day, or year,
           To them I blameless might appear;
        'Tis easy to be kind and sweet
           To people whom we seldom meet.

        But in my home are those who see
           Too many times the worst in me.
        My hymns of praise were best unsung
           If He does not control my tongue.
        When I am vexed and sorely tried
           And my impatience cannot hide,
        May no one stumble over me
           Because Thy love they failed to see.

        But give me, Lord, a life that sings
           And victory over little things.
        Give me Thy calm for every fear,
           thy peace for every falling tear.
        Make mine, O Lord, through calm and strife,
           A gracious and unselfish life;
        Help me with those who know me best,
           For Jesus' sake, to stand the test.
                        -Barbara C. Ryberg

WHAT MORE CAN I SAY???

Nicole
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:54:51 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian rock
              8 Apr 1992 09:35:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

Steven:

I got the verses from the Mennonite Hymnal, and, as I've said before,
they sometimes have different words than others do.

As to who sings those "awful" songs, I think we're mainly talking
country-type groups--the kind of people that end up on Praise the Lord
at 4 am, after Jack Van Impe.  I would hesitate to accuse anyone in
particular, but you ought to be able to tell just by the overall style.
They tend to be somewhat annoyingly and consistently up-beat and they
wear a lot of polyester.  Just an observation.  No offense meant to anyone.
Love INC,
         ---Kerry
From: KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Request for advice
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:28:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: ASUACAD.CHRISTIA%92040611414634
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Darryl and others on the ABORTION discussion:

Please inform me how to change a subject line in replying.  People not
interested in abortion please go on to another message.

I will be brief.  Analogies and counter-analogies are not a good basis on
which to determine whether we are taking life.  Comparisons with human and
non-human life are not Biblical because God gave stewardship of the planet
to human beings, not other life forms.  Doctors may be the best judge of
who is alive and who is not in your opinion, but IMHO, God alone determines
both the existence of life and its quality and quantity.  In the absence of
agreement on whether a potential person is a person, which is the greater
sin in the eyes of God:  to accidently take that life, or to preserve life that
is merely an illusion?

Finally, I will ask this:  regardless of whether you can find the Bible to
argue _against_ abortion, can you find a way to argue that the Bible argues in
_favor_ of it?  In the absence of such a finding, why pursue such a potentially
unBiblical agenda?

Oh, yes.  I almost forgot.  I would like to ask all participants in this dis-
cussion to please refrain from using capital letters except in abbreviations,
as it tends to give the impression of shouting, and I would like to try to
keep this discussion  as loving and Christ-centered as possible.
                                             Love and Peace INC,
                                                                ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:13:53 EST
From:         John Ross <ROSSJB@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re:
              9 Apr 1992 16:12:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

>>    Some people believe both in God in Darwen's revolution.
>Hi Allen,
>
>I believe you are referring to the so-called Theistic Evolution idea.  No, I
>don't believe it to be correct.

Ditto.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 11:16:13 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request-Lifechain

Children of the Living God:

This weekend (Palm Sunday), our local right-to-life is holding a life
chain.  We expect a huge turnout and hope to demonstrate that the majority
of members of this community are prolife.  Please, if you are prolife, pray
both for the success of this endeavor and that we will be continually in
submission to the will of God in doing this work.  If you are prochoice, I
would ask that you will pray for God to reveal His truth to all of us and
to all of you, whatever that truth may be (same for prolifers, of course.)
To those not praying to or through Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible
(Wiccans, New Agers, other non-Christian members on this server), please
ignore this prayer request.  Thank you very much.
                                                 Love INC,
                                                          ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 11:07:49 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Friday 10 April
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

FRIDAY BEFORE PALM SUNDAY

O Lord, who dost, out of the abundance of thy great riches, relieve
our necessity: Grant, we beseech thee, that we may accept with joy
the salvation thou dost bestow, and by the quality of our lives show
forth the same to all the world; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who
liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever
and ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 23:54:42 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject: re: Fruit or Act?

Vicky (the List Minor) writes:

 >      I have a question:
 >
 >      Was it the _act_of_disobedience_ brought sin into the
 >      world?  Or was it the _fruit_ that did it?
 >
 >      (I have two questions actually :-) )
 >      If it was the act, and not the fruit, then was there
 >      actually "life" in the fruit of the Tree of Life?
 >
 >      Was everything symbolic?

For one point of view on this and related questions, you might
want to read my seven essays on Genesis in the Library. To obtain
a copy of Essay Number X (X from 1 to 7), send the message
 GET GEN0X RUFF to LISTSERV@ASUACAD.

Your question is specifically discussed in GEN04 RUFF, but hope
to interest you in all seven essays (preferably read in order).

In the following table, the number of lines in each essay is shown.

 GEN01    RUFF       1363 The Problem of Evil in Genesis 1-11
                          Three views of Genesis 1
 GEN02    RUFF       1106 Darwinism and science
 GEN03    RUFF        971 Darwinism and Christianity
 GEN04    RUFF       1747 Fall and Atonement Theories:
                             (1) The Penal Substitution Theory
                             (2) The Beau-Geste Theory
 GEN05    RUFF        468        (Hebrew Sacrifice: an interlude)
 GEN06    RUFF       1155    (3) The Pattern Theory
 GEN07    RUFF        878    (4) The Existential Theory
                             (5) The Conflict Theory

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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