HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:32:53 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <Bu8E2r.4H4.1@cs.cmu.edu>, clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) writes:
> In article <Bu862M.7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
> 
>    Jews have always, for the last 2000 years, been the majority in
>    Jerusalem.  
> 
> This statement is clearly incorrect.
> 
> Jews were banished from Jerusalem following the Bar Kochba revolt (135
> CE).  The Romans and then the Byzantines did not even allow Jews in to
> visit (except to lament before the Western Wall on Tisha b'Av).  Only
> when the city was taken over by the Persians in 614 CE, were Jews
> once again permitted to visit and reside in Jerusalem.
> 

My recollection was that:

Jews were a majority in Roman Palestine until the mid-4th century.

Jews were a majority in Jerusalem until the Crusades.

Saladin (un-characteristically for a Kurd) left Jews out of the
withdrawal agreement with the Crusaders, and the Crusaders slaughtered
most of the cities' Jews.  Most Muslim casualties came
during the fighting, the Jews were not again a majority
in the city until the current era.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 05:22:58 GMT

In article <18tah5INN88h@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>
>>>--
>>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and 
>>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>>followers from Europe landed there.
>
>Always???
>
>Those Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians are actually either (1)
>relatively recent immigrants from nearby Arab countries, generally
>attracted to Palestine by the economic opportunities that resulted from the

I will be happy to repeat for the umpteenth time, Arabs of Southern Arabia
settled there A FULL TWO THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE THE FIRST HEBREWS DID!!!!
Get it through your head.  You don't like it, but TOUGH.  

>influx of Jews returning to their homeland, or (2) descendents
>of earlier conquerors who kicked the Jews out of their homeland.

It was the Romans (ancestors of my Italian step-dad) who expelled
the Jews, NOT Arabs.  

Did you sleep through Ancient History 101?

>
>>Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...Palestinians are
>>HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.
>>While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
>>are bleeding for their homeland.
>>
>Those Palestinian Arabs who really loved the land had the opportunity to
>stay.  It's rather insulting to our intelligence to plead about the
>bleeding hearts of people who voluntarily left Palestine in the expectation

And you insult HUMANITY with this bloody lie.  No Palestinian voluntarily
left....unless by voluntarity you mean my friend's son, who was out
of "Israel" *temporarily* for the purpose of an education during the
1967 war and was REFUSED permission to enter EVER again.  And the
millions of others with sadly similar stories.

Sandra.

>of returning over the graves of their Jewish neighbors.
>-- 
>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19845 talk.politics.soviet:7834 soc.culture.greek:8740 soc.culture.europe:8295 soc.history:8181 news.admin:7554
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,news.admin
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: Only one in ten "Sipas" called up to join the Greek navy can swim.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:57:16 GMT


In article <1992Sep5.051241.16404@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:

>	Does one have a right to say anything to a person who does not
>want to hear it?

Switch to "B" channel.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19850 talk.politics.soviet:7839 soc.culture.greek:8745 soc.culture.europe:8300 soc.history:8186
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: "Wieneramus the x-Soviet Jew" is back: further exposing a racist.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:59:21 GMT


In article <715809514@juliet.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:

>      Why, of course, Hakan!!  They weren't supposed to survive
>      the Genocide, were they?

Vola. Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at 
the hands of the Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing 
of innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia. 
They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman 
Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide 
as acting with a 'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial 
part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.' History shows that 
the Armenian dictatorship intended to eradicate the Muslim population. 
2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the Armenians. 
International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including Admiral 
Bristol - denounced the Armenian dictatorship's policy as a massacre of 
the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of the Armenian 
dictatorship at the time personally involved in the extermination of the 
Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor those who died 
during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians. 

The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in Armenian dictatorship
territories.

The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the Dashnaks and Hunchaks.

The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.

Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in 
 the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly 
 defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
 the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:19:37 GMT

In article FGE@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>Even under the restrictive conditions of the White Paper, Jewish 
>>immigration into Palestine exceeded Arab immigration.  That's what
>>the official statistics show; if you have evidence to the contrary
>>you should post it.
>
>As I said before, it is certainly easier to document Jews who must travel
>across the ocean on ships and actually be counted and registered at a port
>than Arabs who simply need to cross a river.  Though I have no evidence on
>this point at this time, I logically assume that this is the case.

I don't accept your logical assumptions.  The evidence suggests a substantial
out-flow of Arabs from Palestine during the revolt of 1936-1939, followed
by a partial return of these people in the next few years.  While there
undoubtedly was some illegal immigration of Arabs, there is no good evidence
(that I've seen) that it came close in magnitude to the illegal Jewish
immigration.  That's for all parts of the mandate period.

>>I have several times stated that I strongly disapprove of British
>>war-time behaviour concerning the Holocaust, so you won't be
>>able to get me on that one. 
>
>>>By the way, name calling is the last refuge of a non-thinker.
>
>>So stop calling your political opponents "racists".  
>
>If the Israelis denied Arabs the right to live anywhere in Israel just 
>because they were Arabs, you would call them racists too.

But that is exactly what Israel does.  Arabs who were born in what is
now Israel and had good reason to leave in 1948 are denied residence
(with relatively few exceptions) just because they are Arabs.  However,
you will note that I still did not call Israelis racists.

>  Here are the fractions of residents of Palestine who
>>were born outside Palestine at the 1931 census:  
>>    Moslems 2%, Christians 20%, Jews 58%.
>>Similar sorts of figures are available from the earlier Ottoman censuses.
>>If you don't believe these numbers, post your evidence against them.
>
>I will check on these figures and get back to you.  By the wy, where are you
>getting these numbers?

The figures above appear on page 59 of the report of the 1931 census.
A breakdown of the place of birth appears in Subsidiary Table II.

I'll get back to you about the land ownership matter.

>Ed Shnekendorf.

Brendan.
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:36:52 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <4168@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.143943.11216@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
> >
> >  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
> >and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
> >this logical?
> 
> No it does not.  In the 1950's (I think) a carmelite monk who had
> converted to Catholicism from Judaism (he had been hidden in a
> Carmelite Monastery during WWII) wanted to immigrate to Israel under
> the Law of Return.  To cut a long story short, the case went all the
> way to the Supreme Court in Israel which ruled that as he had
> consciously rejected Judaism, and accepted another religion of his own
> volition,it was impossible to consider him a Jew, even by the most
> lenient definition.  (He then applied for, and received, citizenship
> after following normal procedures for those not covered by the 'Law of Return'.)
> 
> A similar case took place here last year of a couple who called
> themselves 'Jews for J' who were also rejected under the Law for the
> same reason, despite the fact that they claimed they were still Jews.
> 

This actually makes societal sense, because most of the funding
for the special status under the Law of Return comes not from
Israeli Government general funds, but from Jewish welfare
organizations around the world.  Contributions here to Operation
Exodus go to resettlements of refugees under the LOR.  Why should
Jewish diaspora money go to help people who have chosen to join
another people?  Conversely why should Moslem and Christian
Israelis tax money go to resettle Jews?


			Seth Rosenthal
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:18:34 GMT


In article <1992Sep14.170644.29044@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.064030.2503040@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>
>>>>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
>>>>targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
>>>>to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY. 
>>>
>>>Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?
>>
>>You are off.  Yes *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.  I am a US CITIZEN FYI.  I pay
>>tax probably a lot more than you do, and contribute to AMERICA'S unity
>>a lot more than you do.  My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with
>>the saftey of israel like some.  ALSO, FYI, the US and Lebanon do alow dual
>>citizenships. So, I am an American by heart/practice and Lebanese 
>>via parents.
>>
>>I hope you don't have a problem with that.  I don't FLAME UP if the US
>>doesn't give $10 BILLION in loan guarantees to Lebanon, nor
>>five billions either.  You and many israel-lovers do.  If BUSH doesn't
>>give moeny to israel, the lobby moves in to arm twist OUR president.
>>Yes I do care for my country America, and it is MY MONEY THAT IS 
>>KILLING INNOCENTS IN THE WEST BANK, so you should be thankfull.
>>
>>Question:  Are you American, Israeli, or Jewish?  Try and answer that
>>if you wished to make the above comment about me.
>
>	The implication here is that one cannot be American and Jewish.
>I find this rather offensive.  Of course, it could be that your English
>is poor, which is not an outrageous possibility.

No, that's not the implication.  It is a question that lies along
the question : >>>Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?
Why don't you comment on the above response?  Or you are speachless.

Of course you can be Jewish and American at the same time,  but 
you should not burn up the President if he doesn't give $5 billion
a year to israel (in which he does currently).  I know of many
great jewish americans, don't understand me wrong.  You just read
my words above wrong, and they are as clear as the Sun in August
(not in LA of course :) ) .

>
>Manu
>
>>
>>jle
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>
>"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
>  Arabs"     -Sir John Bagot Glubb
From: naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:05:48 +0200
Keywords: Mene Tekel Perez
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Sep11.104202.6275@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> 
> In article 202743@uctvax.uct.ac.za, naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za () writes:
>>In article <1992Sep7.022344.27498@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>> 
>>> I see, the Massive Recent Immigration myth.  It has been debunked so
>>> many times that it must take some courage to still believe it
>>
>>It is not a myth but is supported by British population and immigration
>>records. Although people have tried to debunk it they have only used
>>fraudulent claims.
> 
> Easy to say, but hard to prove.  I have thousands of pages of British
> population records.  Perhaps you can tell me where to look for the
> "support" you mention.  It will have to be good, because the records
> themselves come to the opposite conclusion.
> 
>>Colin 
 
> Brendan.

Well I could quote the figures from books I have but you probably won't believe
me. I suggest that anyone interested in the subject should go to the nearest
library and read as many books as possible on the subject themselves.

The fact remains that the modern Jews still have the strongest claims to the
land of Israel, since they are descended from all the tribes and peoples who
lived there in ancient times. 

Colin 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:36:30 GMT


In article 202798@uctvax.uct.ac.za, naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za () writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.104202.6275@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>> 
>> In article 202743@uctvax.uct.ac.za, naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za () writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep7.022344.27498@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>> 
>>>> I see, the Massive Recent Immigration myth.  It has been debunked so
>>>> many times that it must take some courage to still believe it
>>>
>>>It is not a myth but is supported by British population and immigration
>>>records. Although people have tried to debunk it they have only used
>>>fraudulent claims.
>> 
>> Easy to say, but hard to prove.  I have thousands of pages of British
>> population records.  Perhaps you can tell me where to look for the
>> "support" you mention.  It will have to be good, because the records
>> themselves come to the opposite conclusion.
>> 
>>>Colin 
> 
>> Brendan.
>
>Well I could quote the figures from books I have but you probably won't believe
>me. I suggest that anyone interested in the subject should go to the nearest
>library and read as many books as possible on the subject themselves.

An excellent suggestion.  

>The fact remains that the modern Jews still have the strongest claims to the
>land of Israel, since they are descended from all the tribes and peoples who
>lived there in ancient times. 

The question is why the second implies the first.

>Colin 

Brendan.
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 05:05:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <95745@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
>course, charisma of Stalin or even the fool Khruchev (and no one in USSR
>thought of him differently) is a lot more debatable than that of Brezhnev. But

You seems to be very very confident. Apparently you are wrong. Lot's of
people think differently.

Yury


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: MORE ABOUT COLOR DISCRIMINATION IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE (ISRAEL)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:39:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.204211.2413732@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.171212.1052@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.190710.2409023@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>I received the following article about the discrimination there.   To make
>>>story short, I'll only show sections of the article.  Apparently
>>>the government knows that the Ethiopian Jews are converts, but not
>>>*FULLY* converted yet. Read on.  -JLE
>>
>>I suggest that John Elghani go back and learn how to read the English
>>language.  The last sentence is nowhere in the excerpts from the article
>>below, nor can *any* part of it be implied from the wording that Elghani
>>presents.  Typical.
>
>Don't the following 3 lines prove what I said, ERIC?  This is rather
>typical of you. 
>
>
>>>	Besides recognizing the authority of the kessim, the Ethiopians want
>>>Israel to cease its requirement that the immigrants undergo a symbolic
>>>conversion, which they call ``a great insult.''

No, they don't.  In fact, it says nothing about your claim that
"Apparently the government knows that the Ethiopian Jews are
converts..." and in fact the attitude of the Ethiopian Jews speak
strongly against that point.

You're both a fool and a liar, Elghani.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:54:04 GMT


	How do you spell "paranoid fantasy"?

In article <3745@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:


>I wonder how much money and/or oil the United States received
>for planning and participating in the invasion of Kuwait versus
>its full-scale war against Iraq?

	I'm having trouble following this.

	Are you saying that Iraq paid us to let them invade,
	or that Kuwait paid us to stop them,
	or that they took turns paying us???


>I also wonder how Saddam benefitted out of the deal - is he
>allowed to remain Iraq's President for life still?

	I hope so.
	I hate to think he would retire or be deposed.

	Then we'd have to support him.

	Can you imagine how much it would cost to put up his family?
	I hear he has fifty wives and several hundred children.


>I wonder still, when the people in the U.S. will learn of
>these deep, dark secrets of the CIA ... will they blindly
>support the re-election of such a dictator?

	Have you been watching that "JFK" movie?


>Reminds me of the movie, JFK, when it was said that it doesn't
>matter how many lives are lost or what the sacrifices are -
>as long as the business of war and corruption continues ...
>if it was $80 Billion back in the 60's and 70's, what the
>going rate today?

	I see.  Is that your idea of a documentary?


>When are people going to wake up?

	When there's something worth waking up to.


>Anisa
	who clumbers like a peep in the night of our hearts.
and Gerard
	together, forever, again.

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:28:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.024550.2482136@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.143943.11216@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>>>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>>>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?
>>
>>  I would also like to ask a related question:
>>
>>  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
>>and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
>>this logical?
>
>"To emigrate" is is not the problem.   It gives you the right to
>steal the native's land, home, horse, and cow; that is in addition to 
>the right of killing him and his children.

No, it doesn't.  And no, we didn't do that in the past.

>P.S. these issues have been discussed on this newsgroup where none
>of the israel-establishment supporters gave a logical answer.

Wrong. Rather, we refuted the "information" you gave; this seems to be
the best you can do for a retort.  

Uh-uh.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast