From: patty@alpha.larc.nasa.gov (Patty Howell)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: dressage bitting
Date: 19 Nov 1992 22:13:08 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.larc.nasa.gov

[Debbie, I combined your 3 articles into one for these comments]
Article: 10620 of rec.equestrian

In article <1ebeviINNcbt@rave.larc.nasa.gov> patty@alpha.larc.nasa.gov (Patty Howell) writes:
>> [...] has never understood is that the rider's seat should be adjusted
>> depending on the level of the horse. Steinbrecht understood this and wrote
>> about it, but dressage authorities still insist on teaching
>> "dressage equitation" to beginning riders on *green horses*

>First, I haven't read Steinbrecht, does someone have a reference?
 I'll post tomorrow on this one (title & date)
  
>What do you mean by the "classical seat" and how should it be 
>modified on younger horses?
[...]
>Is this really unusual?  You don't see a whole lot of variation
>in seat in horses being shown at Dressage shows, it's true, but
>most horses showing at Training Level these days, at least out
>here, aren't really that green.  They are often showing a second
>or third level frame.  The tests require the rider do virtually
>all trot work sitting by Training Level, Test 3...

 First of all, the whole issue of a "second or third level horse"
 showing in a "training level" class is only a quest for ribbons.
 Training level was originally meant for green horses. But you are
 also right when you justify that by how much sitting trot the
 test calls for. See the problem the dressage committee has not
 resolved? It's because they don't know what you know, which is that
 a trot is not comfortable at all to sit on a true "green horse."
 A true classical seat is described in many texts, so I won't go into
 it here, but if you can achieve it on a lower level horse, you are
 out of balance. Conversely, I can always tell when I'm "right"
 with the horse's balance, because my legs naturally fall to the right
 places [not to mention the rest of me :) ] 


Article: 10621 of rec.equestrian
>> de la Gueriniere's time, there were few, if any, riders who knew
>> how to "take a horse's balance in hand" *without* collection
>> like Newcastle did a century before. 
 
>I must say, I'm beginning to gain a great respect for the variety of
>approaches I've been exposed to in the LA area!  There was a French
>dressage trainer our barn worked with for a while, who was very
>big on exercises to help with balance on a long or loose rein,
>and I have become very aware of the importance of long & low 
>work which is done with a good rhythym and balance.  So, I think
>it isn't completely a forgotten art!

 This is not quite what I mean by "taking a horses balance in hand"
 although it is a very useful exercise ( and very "french" It is
 called "showing the horse the way to the ground") "taking
 a horse's balance in hand" means that you can fade back on their
 balance to place them on their haunches. Newcastle's exercise
 stressed alternately placing them on their haunches, their
 forehand, and back to their haunches. It was done w/ the
 green horse, and did not influence head carriage at all. He
 called it "giving a horse a nice appuy." It is exactly what
 the handiness exercises (described what, about a month ago?)
 do for you (and first recorded for history by Xenophon in 400 BC).

>However, you can only adjust the balance so far before you automatically
>get a change in frame, which, as it progresses, becomes collection.
>No?

 A strict de la Gueriniere follower would say yes, I say no.
 Can you influence a horse's balance without influencing their
 head carriage at all? Again, think about a *good* western reining
 or cutting horse. Their hocks are about 9 inches off the ground
 when they're working a cow, right? But there is absolutely
 no attempt to shorten their frame into collection. (Now
 there is a horse working from behind!)
 
>>  [...] I just said curb. and the reason one hand

>Hmmm... I would say that they aids become more subtle in the sense
>of being harder (for the horse) to distinguish, but it seems to 
>me that a double bridle used with both hands (and four if we
>could get 'em :-) ) would be capable of more shades of meaning.
 
 The aids are more subtle because you only have to give a suggestion
 of the movement for the horse to respond, because they are giving you
 more and more control of their balance, posture, stride and energy. A
 suggestion is enough, because they know what you want. Much like a young
 horse requires clear leg signals for a leg yielding movement, but
 eventually learns to do the movement from the movement of the
 riders hip (which always preceeds the leg aid). A well 
 schooled horse won't wait for your leg to act.

>How is a bearing rein used in classical dressage correctly?  How
>does its effects differ from the more commonly used rein aids?

 I have never made a study of the rein aids like the french have,
 but a bearing rein causes a horse to fall shoulder first into
 a turn. The rein actually lays against the neck (which is why
 dressage people have mis-equated neck reining with the bearing
 rein) But the bearing rein acts on the horses mouth, pulling his head
 to the outside (while neck reining acts only on the horses neck) 


>> [...]Balance can be controlled by the hand alone, while frame cannot.

>I think you meant this the other way around!
 No I don't. This is right. What confuses you? Balance can be controlled
 with the hand alone. Frame, by definition, means framed between
 hand and leg. The epitome of balance control without collection
 is the *good* western reining(or cutting) horse. See above.

 
>By the way, I'm really enjoying this discussion!
 I'm glad someone is. I'm getting tired of typing.

Article: 10623 of rec.equestrian

>I had heard (I think it may even be in Xenophon somewhere) that the
>'airs above the ground' were originally taught as military maneuvers.
>Has this for once and all been debunked?  Are they really only "tricks"
>then?

 It wouldn't have been Xenophon (unless there's another Xenophon
 that I'm not aware of) I think a little history perspective will
 clear things up, which I'll do tomorrow, but first let me address 
 whether or not they're tricks. There are tricks if they are
 taught as stand alone responses to any given signal. "when I tap 
 your left ear, do a levade." It is not a trick if it has been
 taught through the language of the aids. "close down more on your
 hocks, more please, ..." It is the same for anything else. You
 can teach a horse to canter from just about any cue you can make
 up. The reason we all use the aids we do is because they make 
 sense with all the other aids. But the horse doesn't know
 the language unless we are successful teaching it to them.
 They were never military maneuvers. They take great concentration
 on the part of both horse and rider, which would have been in short
 supply during battle.

>In my (fairly limited) experience with curb bits, I have never
>noticed that I can create true roundness with a curb where I couldn't
>get it with a snaffle.  After all, if we are being stickler's for
>correctness, shouldn't it mostly come from the leg, anyway?

 The horse is framed between hand and leg. Just as a "for instance"
 look at the difference between piaffe and extended trot. In the
 first, I'm blocking forward progress with my hands, and diverting
 the energy (created with my legs) upwards. That's why the horse
 closes down more on his hocks and you can feel him grow underneath
 you. For the extended trot, I first fade his balance back (to
 set him up for the change)  and divert the energy forward
 (by not blocking his forward progress). So, yes, it comes mostly
 from the leg and seat, because the hands are the last to
 influence his "way of going" to the extent that they block forward
 progress. When all this comes together for the horse (esp. learning
 "the other way out is "up" stage) the horse is about at fourth
 level. For a lower level horse, the same argument can be used
 for the shoulder-in. The horse will briefly step into a more
 rounded frame when performed correctly, but you are blocking 
 forward progress with your hands (and if you're good, you
 faded their balance back first).

patty

Up & coming episode.....chronological listing of the masters
and a "one liner" regarding their major contribution(s)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian