HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eric_gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (Eric Gorr)
Subject: Ordering Sourdough bread from San Francisco - HOW?  WHERE?
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 19:11:42 GMT

Got a question for all you sourdough fans.

I have heard that it was possible to order Sourdough bread from San
Francisco (where only true sourdough bread can be made - correct?)..

Can anyone give me information concerning this?  Store, phone #, price,
etc..?


Also, please respond via E-mail as I don't regularly read this group.

thanx...


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: Re: Culture Problems
Summary: This is my cultures behavior
Keywords: culture,sour
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:13:06 GMT

The culture that I started from local bacteria, etc., has exactly the same
behavior.  If I take a teaspoon from the culture and inoculate a fresh
batch of flour and water it starts off okay.  However, after about 24
hours it starts to develop a sour odor and quickly becomes very sour
tasting.

From then on, the culture becomes relatively thin and soupy no matter how
much flour and water I add.  I suspect that a lactobacilli strain that is
hostile to the extant yeasts gains the upper hand and then keeps it.  It
may have something to do with the developed acidity of the culture since I
have to dilute it so extensively to get the yeast started again.

This whole experience makes me wonder how stable even the tried-and-true
cultures are when fed something other than the usual staples.  It also
points out the strong advisability of doing regular backups. ;v) ;v)

-- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com)
From: geoff@netcom.com (Geoffrey Leach)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Storage Containers
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:38:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

> On 31 Aug 92 14:56:36 GMT, searsk@med.ge.com (Kevin Sears) said:

Kevin> I want to buy bulk flour(50 or 100 lbs bags) but I do not have a bug/mouse
Kevin> proof container that is large enough to hold that much flour(I hate to
Kevin> think of using 100-1 lb coffee cans!). The wife wants something akin to
Kevin> tupperware's ability to seal tightly.

Try a paint store.  White plastic containers in 2 and 5 gallon sizes are
available with (necessarilly) tight-sealing lids.  Expect to pay $5-$8.
-- 
Geoffrey Leach		geoff@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: carlj@hpcvmcdj.cv.hp.com (Carl Johnson)
Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:56:51 GMT

dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:
: 
: Thanks to delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) who writes:
: 
: |One practical thing I gleaned from the literature:  be really careful
: |with the salt concentration in your starter and dough.  The salt
: |concentration can have an enormous influence on the leavening
: |capabilities of your sourdough (see Galal et al., _Cereal Chemistry_
: |55:683 1978).  If you are trying to cut down on your salt, better not
: |do it by leaving the salt out of your dough.  At least that is what
: |the literature says, and it is consistent with my own baking
: |experience.  What have other people found?
: 
: I had read that salt helps to regulate the growth of yeast.  Laurel's
: Kitchen Bread Book discusses the difficulties of making bread without
: salt.  (And that is with active dry yeast.  I can imagine that things
: might be more difficult with more complex cultures.)

I have not used salt with any bread I have made in the past few years,
so I don't have a good comparison, but I usually get my bread to rise
well.  My problem is that this summer has been hot enough that my bread
often proofs too long and doesn't rise well for that reason.  It seems
that my bread is fairly sensitive to how long the proof is, and doesn't
rise well if it gets fairly sour (I have Dr. Woods Yukon culture),
although I don't know if that is due to the lack of salt.

: |----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: |Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
: |Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
: |                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton
: 
: --David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
: ___________________________________________________________________
:        member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
: 
-- 

Carl Johnson              carlj@cv.hp.com
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:44:44 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.


 fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp)) writes:
|
|Hm.  Do I read this correctly to mean "you can't cycle your starter
|continuously"?  I.e. you have to refrigerate or otherwise "rest" it
|between batches?
|
|I know someone who's thinking of opening a pizza joint, and the topic
|of sourdough crusts came up.  I figured it would be a lot easier to
|make sourdough every day than to do what I do -- which is to usually
|let the poor yeasties starve for 3-4 weeks between batches.  Are you
|saying a starter can't handle being fed and made into dough every day?

Dr. Woods book shows that bakeries through out the mideast and many places
in europe make sourdough every day, and save part of the dough from
each batch for the next days production.  There is no refrigeration 
involved.



---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:52:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:
>In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) writes:
>|Just a quick corection:  I stated, or implied, somewhere along the
>|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and
>|breaks it down into sugars.  I know better than that.  The reason one
>|malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch.
>|The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase,
>|but apparently the amylase is from the grains.  This amylase would
>|normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and
>|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are
>|produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and
>|lactobacilli.  
>|
>|Sorry if I confused anyone.
>|
>|
>|-- 
>|----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
>|Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
>|                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton
>
>
>
>Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding,
>which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release
>amylase until the process of germination begins.  (I think I picked up this
>idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.)  When the seed begins to germinate
>amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from 
>storage.  Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form.
>Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase.
>Anyway I would like more information on the subject.  (Not that you don't
>have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.)
>
>---
>--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
>___________________________________________________________________
>       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
>

I guess the question I would have is whether or not amylase is released
chemically from the components of the grain when it gets wet, or if the
grain needs to be in its original, unadulterated seed-form for the amylase
to be released, i.e. for germination.  For example, if whole grain dried
wheat berries release amylase to 'unlock' the thing so it'll germinate, is
it a chemical reaction with water in a part of the berry?  Maybe if the
thing is ground up, then mixed with water, the amylase is released anyway
even though the berry is not whole anymore.  This would then imply that
since we do not live in a 0% relative humidity environment that flour
would always have some, albeit small, amount of released amylase in it.
More would be released when it gets wet, thereby providing the sugars
that yeast need to feed on.

BD


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen)
Subject: Re: First Timer Question
Organization: CAD-Research, University of Iowa, Iowa City
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:58:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.143607.5238@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.135953.21337@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been reading this group for several weeks now and decided to give this
>> sourdough thing a try.  I started a culture from the local atmosphere on 
>> wednesday this last week and the it started bubbling up good on friday.  I
>> gave it two 12 hour proofs at 92 degrees (in oven temp with oven light on) and
>> made sourdough molasses pancakes for sunday breakfast (Delish).  I gave the 
>> culture one more proof and it looked really healthy (lots of bubbles, froth,  
>> able to stir it down) so I went for sourdough wheat bread yesterday.  I 
>> started the proof in the morning before work and added more flour at noon.  
>> I started the mixing and kneeding at 5:00 and we were eating three loves of 
>> fresh hot sourdough bread at 9:30.  The first rise took 2 1/2 hours.  
>	
>	2 1/2 hours rise for a new airborne starter!?!  That rivals
>the Russian culture!  You didn't add commercial yeast did you?
>Do you live near a sourdough bakery? ;-)
>
>Julie
>#include "std_disclaimer.h"
>#include "witty_sig.h"

No I didn't add commercial yeast.  This is what worries me do I have some 
mutant strain or what?  This stuff really bubbles, is there something wrong, or
is this just good critters?  I am having a PBJ sandwich with the bread now for
lunch it tastes good (mild sourness) should I be worried?


-- 
  Andrew D. Petersen   (N0JST)                 E-mail : petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu 
  Research Electrical Engineer                US Mail : CAD-Research 
  University of Iowa                                    212 ERF 
  Phone : (319) 335-5723                                Iowa City, Iowa 52242 
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands)
Subject: Re: Storage Containers
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:27:20 GMT

fsf@hpic006.mentorg.com (Rick Farnbach) writes:
> On 31 Aug 92 14:56:36 GMT, searsk@med.ge.com (Kevin Sears) said:
>
>Kevin> I want to buy bulk flour(50 or 100 lbs bags) but I do not have a bug/mouse
>Kevin> proof container that is large enough to hold that much flour(I hate to
>Kevin> think of using 100-1 lb coffee cans!). The wife wants something akin to
>Kevin> tupperware's ability to seal tightly.
>
>Kevin> Suggestions?
>
>I go down to the local Winchell's Donut and ask them for plastic buckets
>w/lids.  Depending on who is behind the counter I get one of three
>responses:
>
>  1) Here you go.
>  2) That'll be $1.00 each.
>  3) We don't sell those.
>
>My best luck has been on weekday evenings, not including Fridays.
>
>They seal tightly, but mice might be able to chew through the plastic,
>though this has never happened to me.  They hold 4 gallons which is not
>quite big enough for a 50lb bag of flour, so you will need more than
>one.  They are not clean when you get them.
>
>Rick

Similar types of buckets can be had cheaply (less than two dollars) from
various mom-n-pop hardware stores.  I noticed that Target in Seattle is having
a sale on huge rubbermaid storage bins (in "attractive colors" that will
stack) for 4.95.  If you do not want something that looks like a plastic
water heater in the corner of your kitchen ("oh no that is just my flour")
I would suggest the bins, as they can hold quite a bit, and they will stack
nicely.  But I guess the buckets with lids would too....  Even a local burger
place sells empty buckets for a buck.   Rick seems to have a good idea though-

good luck,
Rebecca
-----
love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. at night, the ice weasels come.
-nietzsche via matt groening
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Culture Problems
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:51:51 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <BtIC1y.KzB@fc.sde.hp.com> Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com> writes:
>
>cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) writes:
>> To make a long story short (too late), the dough only rose a small amount so
>> I got two very sour bricks for my trouble.  
>
>Well, at least I'm not alone...  :-)
>
>I wonder if you made the same mistake I did -- proofing too long?  The 20-hour
>proof you did might have exhausted the food available to the yeasties.
>I did roughly the same thing you did and got the same results:  two very
>sour bricks.

The 24-hour proof was (should have been?) done at 75 degrees and it only
uses 1 tablespoon of starter.  The cooler temp and the low amount of
starter is why it works well.  20 hours using a cup of starter (etc.) would
be too long because it was probably an 85 degree proof.

>
Brian D.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problems
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:49:58 CDT

In article 1@acad3.alaska.edu, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu () writes:
|Thanks for all the help with my starter, it's working great now!
|
|I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned,
|non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my
|gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though I
|oil it well (and I've tried  3 or 4 different recipies.  Does anyone 
|have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricks 
|or hints that you can pass on?    Thanks!
|
|                       Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu


I'ts hopeless.  You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me.  ;^)

(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.  I believe I have talked
about it before.  I thought it was a real find.  Congrads.  Where did
you get it?  How much did you pay?)

It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.  

Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at 
rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin
coat of peanut oil.  I heated in a 400 deg. oven for a long time.
(30 min? I don't remember)  I repeated this until I had at least
6 coats.  

When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to the
batter and not greasing the iron at all.  I eventually decided that
that only partially worked.  I now prefer not to add extra oil to
the batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a basting
brush.  I repeat this brushing before each new waffle.  I try to make
the oil coating very thin.  I use shortening.  It sticks to the brush
well.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm)
Subject: Re: viili
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:31:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.145157.25259@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:
>In article 15231@cs.joensuu.fi, jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi (Jussi Salonen) writes:
>|
>|In Finland I think viili is one alternative to yogurt. You can make
>|more viili from viili and milk as David C. Adams did, but you shouldn't
>|use it as a saladsauce.
>|
>|I used to eat viili with sugar and fresh berries. For foodmaking we have
>|an other kind of viili. It is called kermaviili (cream viili). 
>|
>|rgds   Jussi
>|
>|Dept. of computer science
>|University of Joensuu, Finland
>|
>|jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi
>|
>
>Do you make kermaviili by feeding the viili culture fresh cream?
>
>---
>--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
>___________________________________________________________________
>       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
>

Fresh cream has got a bit too much milk fat to my taste, but mixing milk
and fresh cream works fine. I think that commercial kermaviili one has fat
content of about 10%. If you are planning to use it for cooking
something like 10%-20% sould be ok.
 
seismo



-- 
-------
   sm@tukki.jyu.fi  (seismo malm)
From: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problems
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:07:18 GMT
Organization: GMD Berlin (FIRST)

In article <d5@byu.edu>, earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early) writes:
|> 
|> Also, I found that you need to heat the iron, then put the oil on, then let 
|> oil heat up before you put the batter in.  Most impoirtant is heating the
|> oil.  Someone told me once that putting the cold oil on a hot griddle
|> wasn't good, that the cold gridle and oil should be heated together.
|> 
|> I have found, however, that puttng cold oil on my hot griddle works
|> much better.  Again, you have to let the oil heat up before applying
|> the batter.
I don't much about waffle irons but I have a wonderful iron wok.
There I have found the same and think this has some physical background.

   ( sorry if some words are wrong)

You can heat the wok up to 250 - 280 degress (right spelling?) Celsius.
If you put oil in, it will go to (memories, memories) 180 degress, then
it start smoking. So you are in a hurry to put the chicken in. Now the 
wok cools down, but there is enough energy to heat the chicken up, i.e 
the soup (I put it into a soy - chilli soup) remains into the chicken.
On the other way - cold wok and oil - you can only get 180 degrees until
the oil starts smoking. If you now put the chicken in, there is not 
enough energy and the soup is leaking out. This water cools the wok
down too. At last you have only cooked chicken. I think the same happens
with waffles. They are hanging at the iron.

By the way, did any body have a american - german list with food specific
words. I find it heavy to guess always, when I try my english cook-book.
|> 
|> 
|> Dave Early

Hope it helps
/gT/
Lines: 12
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 09:48:34 MDT
From: earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Distribution: world
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
Subject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problems


Also, I found that you need to heat the iron, then put the oil on, then let 
oil heat up before you put the batter in.  Most impoirtant is heating the
oil.  Someone told me once that putting the cold oil on a hot griddle
wasn't good, that the cold gridle and oil should be heated together.

I have found, however, that puttng cold oil on my hot griddle works
much better.  Again, you have to let the oil heat up before applying
the batter.


Dave Early
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: First Timer Question
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:36:07 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

In article <1992Sep1.135953.21337@ccad.uiowa.edu> petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:
> Hello,
>
> I have been reading this group for several weeks now and decided to give this
> sourdough thing a try.  I started a culture from the local atmosphere on 
> wednesday this last week and the it started bubbling up good on friday.  I
> gave it two 12 hour proofs at 92 degrees (in oven temp with oven light on) and
> made sourdough molasses pancakes for sunday breakfast (Delish).  I gave the 
> culture one more proof and it looked really healthy (lots of bubbles, froth,  
> able to stir it down) so I went for sourdough wheat bread yesterday.  I 
> started the proof in the morning before work and added more flour at noon.  
> I started the mixing and kneeding at 5:00 and we were eating three loves of 
> fresh hot sourdough bread at 9:30.  The first rise took 2 1/2 hours.  
	
	2 1/2 hours rise for a new airborne starter!?!  That rivals
the Russian culture!  You didn't add commercial yeast did you?
Do you live near a sourdough bakery? ;-)

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: viili
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 25 Aug 92 11:51:48 CDT


Seismo Malm sent me a dried out culture of viili from Finland last May
or June.  Until last night it remained in my freezer.  Last night
I began to revive the culture.  By this morning it was clear that
some lactic fermentation was going on.  More later.


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:30:31 CDT

In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) writes:
|Just a quick corection:  I stated, or implied, somewhere along the
|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and
|breaks it down into sugars.  I know better than that.  The reason one
|malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch.
|The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase,
|but apparently the amylase is from the grains.  This amylase would
|normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and
|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are
|produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and
|lactobacilli.  
|
|Sorry if I confused anyone.
|
|
|-- 
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology        |"We admit no more causes...
|Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405    |than such as are both true
|                                             |and sufficient." I. Newton



Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding,
which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release
amylase until the process of germination begins.  (I think I picked up this
idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.)  When the seed begins to germinate
amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from 
storage.  Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form.
Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase.
Anyway I would like more information on the subject.  (Not that you don't
have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough