HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thomasb@ucs.indiana.edu (Barry Thomas)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Education and global competition info needed
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:32:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bvtnur.1LC
Organization: Indiana University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.0

One of our Board of Trustees memebers is participating in a forum whose
themes are:

>. To explore critical issues facing U.S. now and in the future in
meeting challenges of global competition
>. To explore possible ways higher education can help the nation in
becoming and     staying more competitive in the global marketplace
>. To explore how businesses and government assist higher education
institutions in preparing us for the global competition.

I don't follow this news group, but hope you might be able to suggest
other information sources or provide your own thoughts and comments on
these subjects.  I am also searching for articles.

I would appreicate  e-mail.  Thanks in advance.

Barry Thomas
thomasb@ucs.indiana.edu
Indiana University

Opinions expressed our my own and do not represent the University
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,talk.politics.theory
From: dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson User)
Subject: Re: High costs of  education
Organization: Amoco Corporation
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:33:16 GMT

In article <Bw0K9z.G6K@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>
>This might be the case if what you have stated was taught in K-12.  Basic
>mathematics is not taught at all to most of the children, and in many places
>is not even available to the best students.  Basic mathematics does not
>consist of learning how to manipulate, and at this time, most high school
>mathematics teachers do not understand basics.
>
>Also, the other subjects you have mentioned are hard to get in the schools.
>Few ever learn any world history, and even American history is badly done.
>Civics is likely to be the Demopublican line, and political science is 
>usually garbage.  Basic science is not taught, but a few trivia and some
>manipulation and facts.  
>
>Now the basic material can, and should, be taught earlier.  I maintain that
>anyone capable of getting an honest bachelor's degree in a science should
>receive all the basic material taught in all of the sciences at an under-
>graduate level now BEFORE the present age of graduating high school.  But
>this is not going to be done in the near future.
>-- 

Dr. Rubin,

Do you (or any other reader) have a reference for what "should" be taught
at various ages?  What are above average children capable of in math and
science with the right kind of instruction and encouragement?  

Have you looked at the Saxon math series for elementary and high school?
If so what do you think of it?  If you don't like it, what would you 
recommend?

We have home schooled our two boys (ages 9 and 11) for almost a year now.
We find that particularly in the area of reading and vocabulary we are
having to fix up a lot of damage done by the public school (we didn't pay
attention that they were reading very little so we are just as much at
fault). 

"Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: NO man
cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME" 
=========================================================================
David L. Hanson       Internet --> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com
Amoco Corporation     X.400    --> A=attmail,P=amoco,S=Hanson,G=David,I=L
Any opinions expressed are my own!
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: bel3a@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Barbara English Labrecque)
Subject: HELP- LD project
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:01:13 GMT

Hello, my name is Barbara Labrecque and I am studying to become
a teacher of special education at the University of Virginia.
For my Characteristics of Learning Disabilities class I need to
interview an individual with a diagnosed learning disability.
The questions would be general in nature and your name would
not appear anywhere in the assignment.  The purpose of the
assignment is for future teachers to get more of an awareness
of what it is like to have a learning disability.  I would
appreciate your help-
reply to bel3a@curry.edschool.Virginia.edu
THANK YO
From: hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: SAT's
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:37:51 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Oct12.203436.24264@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> stm3f@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Sarah Thomas Mumford) writes:

>     Just a few comments on grading systems.  I agree that
>there seems to be a problem with measuring to tenths of a point
>the scholastic acheivements of students.  I always did well in
>school, also, but when I was doing particularly well in a
>subject, I often stopped working very hard.  I worked just
>enough to get the grades I wanted.  That is why I feel a system
>based primarily on effort would be more effective.  This would
>create a division between those exceptionally bright students
>who just rely on the genes their parents gave them, and those
>who make a concerted effort to excel.  Effort and perseverence
>is what counts in the "real world."

Effort may or may not count in certain situations.  But as the 
bard said, "One cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
There is a very definite component of ability, and no amount
of hard work can overcome lack of it.

Also, there may be no point in it.  Someone with real mathematical
ability can see a concept in a book, or presented in a lecture, and
have good use of it.  Now that person can work at relating it to
other situations, but once it is really learned, no more effort to
learn the concept is of any use whatever.  Others with a different
type of ability need to derive it themselves.  And still others may
be able to learn it only with considerable effort, and again, this
effort should cease once it is learned.

And there are situations where too much effort and perseverence
can be counterproductive.  If one is not making progress in 
finding a proof in a half hour (this time may even be too large),
working on it for another hour is likely to lead nowhere.  It is
often necessary to let ideas steep.

Too many jobs are botched by people applying effort and perseverence
when backing off and thinking are needed FIRST.  It is generally only
for routine work, more and more to be done by machines, that effort
and perseverence are the proper way.
	
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: andreap@ms.uky.edu (Peach)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Alternate certification states
Summary: Alternate certification
Keywords: certification
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:21:39 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Does anyone know of states that will grant teacher certification to
people who have not gone through the "traditional" certification	
process?  I am working on my doctorate in education, and would be
interested in teaching computer science/data processing in a school
system, but I am unable to become certified to teach in Kentucky
in this area unless I get a math degree.  So, I would like to
see if there are other states (preferably in the south), that
offer alternate certification routes.

Thanks for any information that you can give me.  Please e-mail
responses to Andrea.C.Peach@ukwang.uky.edu


--
From: dehaseth@athena.cs.uga.edu (James A de Haseth)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: LOGO, does it still exist?
Summary: Need a source for genuine LOGO for the PC
Keywords: LOGO
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:35:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In the local school here they still use Apple LOGO as a teaching program.
My daughter loves it and I would like to buy a copy for a PC.  Is it
still available?  All the local vendors (including Atlanta) _believe_
it's still available, but can't locate a source.  Who makes LOGO and
where can it be purchased?

I have tried LadyBug, and it's not really satisfactory - for one thing
I can't get it to recognize a VGA card.

I looked for a FAQ posting, but there isn't one at our site.  Sorry
if this is a FAQ.

Please respond to dehaseth@dehsrv.chem.uga.edu.   Thanks. 
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James A. de Haseth			dehaseth@dehsrv.chem.uga.edu
Department of Chemistry			dehaseth@athena.cs.uga.edu (alternate)
University of Georgia
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: GRADES
Date: 8 Oct 92 23:04:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: ra.1992Oct8.230426.24499
Organization: Mississippi State University

In article <BvtGG3.Jsu@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>
>At this time, only a small proportion of the students can even consider
>learning being a joy.  They ask you to coach them in the questions on the
>exam.
>	
>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
>Phone: (317)494-6054
>hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
>{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)

My response to grading is: "BAH_!"  The only reason students who do well
on tests do well is that they are working at that level of knowledge.  What
happens is then that those who don't do well are forgotten or put aside.

I've had a teacher who told me why I was taking a particular subject when I
wasn't doing to well.  I was incredulous because the answer flashed
immediately to mind: "to learn."  If I'm weak on the stuff then I'm taking
the subject so that I can get better, not because I'm looking for a job.

Good grades, in a way, let the student know he/she is all right and make
the student complacent.  Learning should always be "learn as much as you
can."  It doesn't matters whether you learn considerably less than the
person beside you, it's how much you've learn and how relevant have you
made thge stuff you've learned to your life.

Many smart students take easy profs to get better grades and many others
still only learn the material taught in class in an isolated way--i.e.
not knowing the importance of the stuff learned to their daily lives.

Wing keong Loke.
"There should be NO GRADINGS at all."
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson )
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: High costs of  education
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:34:12 GMT
Organization: Amoco Corporation

In article <1992Oct13.010026.19912@yang.earlham.edu> allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith) writes:
>	The vouchers can be used for whatever form of education the 
>parents wish to give their children, although provably erroneous 
>(creationist, for instance) belief-teachings should not be fundable 
>through the vouchers. That's what the churches, etc., are for.
>	-Allen

And the religion of evolution, which has never been proven, shouldn't	 
be funded by public funds!


"Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: NO man
cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME"
=========================================================================
David L. Hanson       Internet --> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com
Amoco Corporation     X.400    --> A=attmail,P=amoco,S=Hanson,G=David,I=L
Any opinions expressed are my own!
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: msooh@tjhsst.vak12ed.edu (Mary A. Sooh)
Subject: Re: ADD is a fallacy
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Fairfax)
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 12:39:57 GMT

I was very glad to read your response since I have a son in
college now who probably needs Ritalin.  He had used it in high
school, then discontinued it.  I wasn't sure he could still
have ADD, but your note has convinced me I need to look into
this further.  Thanks.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
Mary Sooh                      msooh@tjhsst.vak12ed.edu
8101A Lee Highway                Falls Church, VA 22042
-------------------------------------------------------
From: leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Grades, was Re: SAT's
Date: 12 Oct 92 23:51:22 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <1992Oct12.203436.24264@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> stm3f@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Sarah Thomas Mumford) writes:
>
>     Just a few comments on grading systems.  I agree that
>there seems to be a problem with measuring to tenths of a point
>the scholastic acheivements of students.  I always did well in
>school, also, but when I was doing particularly well in a
>subject, I often stopped working very hard.  I worked just
>enough to get the grades I wanted.
Sounds reasonably familiar...
>  That is why I feel a system
>based primarily on effort would be more effective.  This would
>create a division between those exceptionally bright students
>who just rely on the genes their parents gave them, and those
>who make a concerted effort to excel.  Effort and perseverence
>is what counts in the "real world."
Here is where I would have to disagree.  First of all you are
making the assumption that grades should reflect effort not 
success.  While this is a noble idea I am not sure that it has
any more relevance to the "real world" than the current system,
(ie just about none).  In school situations, to many of my class-
mates I have always appeared to be one of "those exceptionally
bright students who just rely on the genes..." and so forth.  I 
have lived through being told by teachers that I will need to learn
more responsibility if I ever want to hold a job after failing to 
do any homework that quarter and still learning more than anyone 
else in the class.
  Somehow my experience in the "real world" has not born out these
dire predictions.  The people I work for seem to actually like being
able to tell me something to do once and have me end up doing it 
correctly the first time.
  My point is that while I feel your criticism of grades is valid,
your solution is no better than the current system.  People are not
inherintly equal.  There is no way around that fact.  That is why grades
will never be fair.  Any system which could reproduce the totality of 
who someone is would in effect be making a clone of that person.  Anything
less would be putting some people at a disadvantage.
  I am afraid this post is kind of rambling, which I apologize for.  I 
just think it is time we questioned two all to common assumptions in 
education: that people are somehow equal and can be measured as such, and
that effort is more deserving of rewards than achievement.

					Brian Leet
Newsgroups: core.advisors,misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: K12Net is endangering our kids!
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 01:28:21 GMT

Was that a joke? Why stop with taking away computers, why don't we prevent our
children from washing TV. Or better yet take away phones. In fact, I think we
should lock them up in a prison with huge electrical fences surrounding it.
They can go to school there and once a month their parents can visit.

Jason W. Solinsky
From: luden@lehigh.edu (Dean E. Nelson)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: GRADES
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:52:35 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University Computing Center

In article <1992Oct7.183623.27858@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
kek2r@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Kathryn Elaine Krimmer) writes:
 
>I am a successful student, and I have always gotten high
>grades.  I often wonder if I missed out on a lot of the joy and
>excitement that should accompany learning because of my great
>concern about grades.  I want my students to achieve, but I
>wonder how accurately our examinations measure all the aspects
>of achievement.  

I guess I was lucky.  Learning was fun, and the grades just happened.  If my 
experience had been different, that my grades were poor even though I was 
learning a lot and having a great time at it, then perhaps I would've missed 
out too.  I recently read a post in another newsgroup on statistical 
education that cited a study that was done trying to correlate ability and 
achievement.  They analyzed the data by gender and found that ability was 
much more predictive for women than men.  The hypothesis they used to 
explain this was that women are more model students, they are more likely to 
do as they are told.  Men, on the other hand work according to their level 
of interest.  Therefore, they may have the ability but fail to apply 
themselves if they are bored.  So tell me, how are you planning to instill 
curiosity in your students?  Life is too short for all that is interesting, 
especially if you are slow like me.

Dean Nelson den0@lehigh.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
From: jmartin@ntmtv.UUCP (Jeff Martin)
Subject: Re: High costs of  education
Originator: jmartin@cleomed
Organization: Northern Telecom Incorporated
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:25:01 GMT


Along the lines of trying to reduce the cost associated with education
while at the same time increaseing quality I would propose the following:

	1. Elimiate all laws requiring students to attend school above the
	   third grade while at the same time revoking all laws which madate
	   the state to educate all children by establishing minimal standards
	   for behaviour and aptitude that each student must maintain. The
	   purpose of this would be 2-fold: 
		
		A. Remove disruptive, potentially dangerous kids from the
		   class room. Such students are not there to learn but 
		   only attend school because they have too.

		B. Remove mentally or physically handicaped studuents that 
		   could be better served in other facilities. Case in point,
		   a couple of weeks ago the local news ran a story on a child
		   because of a brain injury at birth was violent to all those
		   around him includeing his own mother. Hoverer the public
		   school system is mandated by law to educate child at an 
		   annual cost of ~$100,000 a year. Now I know I will be flamed
		   for such a cold hearted view. If I were the parent of that
		   child I'm sure I would feel different. However I'm also
		   realistic enough to know that having to facilitate this
		   child and others like him detract from the educational 
		   experiences of thousands of other kids. How may books, 
		   teaches, computers, field trips could that $100,000 pay for?

	The purpose of this proposal is to stop forcing traditional public 
	schools from being all things to all people. Any institution that 
	tries to do so is doomed to failure. Just look at the currents state
	of our public schools. So I am not misunderstookd: IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF 
	SOCIETY HAS AN OBLIGATION TOO HELP THE TYPES OF PEOPLE SINGLED OUT
	ABOVE. HOWEVER, THE MAINSTREAM PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM IS NOT THE 
	APPROPRIATE PLACE UNTIL/IF THE NEEDS THE CORE STUDENT BASE ARE MET.


	2.  Institute a voucher system that allows parents to choose where
	    educational tax dollars are spent no matter is the student attends
	    private, public, or regious schools. The merits of such a program
	    have been argued in this medium so I won't be repititious. You
	    either forit or aginit already.

Just my $.02 worth.

Jeff Martin
From: CHALSTED@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Retention Was: Re: Year-round schooling
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:35:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maine System

I AM INTERESTED IN THE YEAR ROUND SCHOOL CONCEPT AND
WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF AND WHERE THERE ARE ANY WORKING
EXAMPLES AROUND ANYWHERE THAT FOLKS COULD SEND ME
INFORMATION ABOUT.
THANKS
From: fayc@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Fay Crayne)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:20:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Attention Deficit Disorder Resources
Organization: the HP Mtn.View Resp. Cntr.
Newsgroups: misc.education

If you are using a very strict definition of "allergy" your list of symptoms    
excluding changes in emotional state and clarity of thinking MAY be accurate
(although my emotional state always changed when I was having an asthma attack
probably because it frightened me so) but if the term is being used in the 
wider sense (as I have noticed most people do) to include "industrial
sensitivities" (to such as food dyes, preservatives, monosodium glutemate, or
in my case, certain perfumes, cheap aromatic pipe tobacco made with chemical 
additives instead of being soaked in vanilla like the more expensive brands,
antifreeze fumes, and (the perfect double-blind test candidate) some odorless,
colorless chemicals which I only know are there AFTER I react and go looking
for the cause) then THEY DO AFFECT MENTAL FUNCTIONING AND EMOTIONAL STATE just
as much as excessive alcohol consumption does.

Industrial sensitivity symptoms are well documented if you know where to look
for the information, and are still not well understood.  My doctors over the
years (I have had to deal with this for 30 years) sympathize, but say that
medical science still does not understand it well enough to provide any
treatment. (I would be glad to have a drug on hand to use as needed, just as
I carry an asthma inhaler for times when I have to stay too long in a house
where cats live.  But when I am on a plane and the lady next to me breaks her
bottle of perfume accidently, and it is one of those few, all they can do is 
move me to the back of the plane and watch me go temporarily brain numb.)
So far the only recommended treatment is avoidance (like don't eat foods with
those things in it, and don't breathe those fumes.)  As the song goes giving
advice to someone about to visit New York City "Just two things to remember
when you get there, Don't drink the water, and don't breathe the air."

Bottom lines of this wordy post:  I suggest that "allergy" in this discussion 
includes "industrial sensitivity" and therefore the range of symptoms being
discussed is completely valid, and avoidance the current medically
recommended treatment.  Whether the child IN ADDITION has a brain condition
that needs chemical balancing help is a separate decision to be made based
partly on whether there are still symptoms when other conditions are controlled.
________________________________________________
Fay Crayne (former teacher of Social Science research methods)
			             "When you come to the end of the road,
			              The only thing to do is build more road."
_____________________________________________
Newsgroups: misc.education,k12.chat.teacher,soc.culture.usa,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,soc.college
From: lklein@nhgs.vak12ed.edu (Leonard Klein)
Subject: Re: The UVA Five-Year Plan
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Hampton)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 23:38:38 GMT

Well some of us in the Great state of Virginia who are on
VA-PEN do read and sometimes respond to what is written.  I am
a chemistry teacher who reads the VA-PEN news groups to see
what my fellow teachers are up to.  I am trying to put more
time into the Usenet groups to see what is off in the outside
world.

Let me know what you are planning to teach and where.  Maybe we
can chat electronicly.  I have found the net is of great use to
me.
-- 
Len Klein
New Horizons Governor's School
lklein@nhgs.vak12ed.edu
What in the world is not CHEMISTRY???
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: mci41087@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Occaisionally)
Subject: Re: SAT's
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:34:57 GMT

This leave the thread somewhat, but how do people out there feel about the
validity of grades at all, particularly in sceondary ed and college.  I am a
grown `gifted' child, and I got great grades, so I'm not bitter, or anything.
I just feel that grades hamper learning, and wish business would let all this
mindless grading stop.  If some child (or college student) knows the material,
pass them, if they don't, don't pass them.  I can't see how education can so
much as work any other way, much less be optimal.

Matt Ivaliotes