HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cindy@meshugge.media.mit.edu (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Subject: Re: The myth of plant pain
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 02:25:57 GMT

Quite the extensive argument.

Mine is a simpler one.  I don't deny or affirm that plants can feel
pain.  I do know that by eating only plant food, however, I am causing
"pain" to *fewer* plants than I would by eating meat (because animals
eat plants, too -- a lot.).  So I am doing the best I can while still
keeping myself alive.

--Cindy Blank-Edelman 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: stcmille@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen C. Miller)
Subject: Re: How To Win an Argument with a Meat Eater
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:32:09 GMT

The original post in this thread didn't have much in the way of material
to help you win an argument with a meat eater.  How about this for
vegetarians who persist in eating dairy products:

You can't eat any milk product without supporting the slaughter of veal
calves, because to produce sufficient volume of milk to keep these
products at a reasonable price, cows must be kept pregnant all the time.
And all those new baby cows can't just be allowed to die of old age.

I realize, of course, that one could run a farm economy along these
lines - look at India.  But we don't.  And eating dairy products in
general supports the slaughter of cows, whether you eat THEM or not.
-- 
--------------------
=
(former rock star turned grad student)
Steve Miller	 		    stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Subject: Re: The Christian Argument for Vegetarianism
Organization: Abo Akademi University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:24:51 GMT

In article <RIGG.92Aug31131940@osnome.che.wisc.edu> rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg) writes:

>This is a nice article but a bit disturbing.  It seems that a
>"Christian Argument for Vegetarianism" should cite at least a little
>scripture.   There are several passages where man is clearly given
>permission to eat animals(*).  Any "christian" argument needs to address
>those passages. 
>
>
>* KJV Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you;
>even as the green herb have I given you all things. 

This means human beings also. This can make people lose some respect
for the great scripture.


-- 
A. Bulsari                                       Tel.  358 (21) 654 721
V{rmeteknik, ]bo Akademi                         Fax   358 (21) 654 792
Va"rmeteknik, A'bo Akademi   (for the non-Scandinavian screen impaired)
SF 20500 Turku, Finland                          Tlx  57 62301 AABIB SF
From: gm115@cus.cam.ac.uk (Gabor Megyesi)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: zucchini overload
Date: 3 Sep 92 09:09:11 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

Overgrown zucchinis can be used in various recipes instead of marrow
and they are more tasty. Here is a Hungarian recipe.
 
Tokfozelek (To:kfo"zele'k with an attempt to indicate thed diacritical marks.)
  
(Marrow-???, to my knowledge there is no suitable word in the
English language to describe this genre. Originally it goes with some
meat dishes, but it must be equally good with some vegetarian alternatives.)
 
Serves four
 
Ingredients:
 
2 lb marrow, grated
1 onion
1 tablespoonful oil
1 tablespoonful flour
vinegar (or lemon juice)
dill
soured cream
salt
 
Salt the marrow lightly, put it in a bowl. Fry the onions in the oil,
mix in the flour. Add the marrow after squeezing the excess juice
out of it. Add some water, vinegar and the dill. Cook until
the marrow is tender. Serve with the soured cream.
 
Gabor
gm115@phx.cam.ac.uk
Xref: sparky rec.food.veg:8289 rec.arts.books:15209 misc.kids:22110
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg,rec.arts.books,misc.kids
Subject: veggie/animal rights novels, and a children's book
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:26:25 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) wrote in rec.food.veg:
> There is now a growing body of fiction where animals figure as central
> characters and where OUR treatment, exploitation and killing of them
> is powerfully questioned. [goes on to recommend:]
>      Frank Davison, MAN-SHY, 1931.
>      Henry Williamson, TARKA THE OTTER (1927)
>      Allan W. Eckert's THE GREAT AUK (1963)
>      Beat Sterchi, COW (1983)

There's a new children's book that might be of interest along those lines.

	Little Pig
	Akumal Ramachander, illus. Stasys Eidrigevicius
	Viking
	1992
	ISBN 0 670 84350 4
	9 pounds 99 pence

It's a strange, bare little story with illustrations in a style that
recalls the early paintings of Max Ernst.  I don't know if I really like
it, but it's stuck in my memory as an awkward lumpy concept that won't fit
tidily anywhere and keeps falling off the shelves of the mind - not many
books manage to do that.  I'm not even sure whether it's intended as a
straight children's book or as a different kind of work using the format
and conventions of a children's book (like Edward Gorey's cartoons or
Raymond Briggs's "When the Wind Blows").

[ crossposted to 3 groups - please be selective in followups ]
-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: meat cravings/soybean politics
Date: 4 Sep 92 04:44:48 GMT
Organization: Yet Another Graphics Project, Bellevue, WA

In article <Bu0MKA.5xn@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Leslie Bishko) writes:
>> I've been a vegetarian for one year and have lately been somewhat
>> distressed by meat cravings! ...
>
>When cooking for yourself there's quite a lot you can do.  Go to a Chinese
>supermarket and start experimenting with tangy preserved things.  There's
>a lot of them and they do a very good job of making you forget about whether
>there's meat in what you're eating.
>
Good suggestion about the Chinese supermarket (although are there any
in Columbus, Leslie?  I went to Ohio State too, and don't remember
Columbus as being a hotbed of cusinary variety, has it gotten
better since 1975?).  Also, if there is a Chinese supermarket, you
could also try some of the canned mock duck or fried gluten - the
mock duck has a kind of meat-like texture, and the fried gluten
has both the texture and enough grease to satisfy the meat cravings.

Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.boeing.com  // or uunet!bcstec!voodoo!das 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 05:06:49 GMT

dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

[...]
>>I think it's time for me to sign off this group.  I was going
>>to ask advice about my four-year-old and encouraging her love
>>for fruits and vegetables, but I am sure I will get some sort
>>of response about how irresponsible I am to have even considered
>>bringing a child into this world.

>No, you'll get a response simply observing that yours is a cheap,
>manipulative comment.  And people like this presume to lecture
>others about rudeness.  Amazing.

Maybe you are forgetting that Judy confided to being "hurt"
by one of your earlier responses, so that "once burned, twice
shy", she has now become reluctant to humbly ask for some
suggestions/advice.  In part, as I here read her message, Judy
IS asking for some advice, genially proffered, and does not care
to suffer another put down.  Yet, here you proceed to maybe again
make a rude dismissal of both Judy's request and her
very person.  

Yes, the Judy's remark is also in part mildly sarcastic,
but I recall you defending one of your own more strongly
sarcastic remarks as just that and not "rudeness".  Another
contradiction besides the one that Judy attempted to
calmly observe?

                                   ted
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 31 Aug 92 04:08:49 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <=_hn6xb.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>Steve Dyer says the colon cleans itself out daily, and that colon
>cleansing is an expensive placebo. That seems to fly in the face of
>the comments of a colleague who says he had his colon cleansed via
>the enema route, and that the person doing the job pointed out decayed
>animal matter in the residue, though he'd been a vegetarian for 3 years.

"Decayed animal matter"?  "The person doing the job" must do a great job
reading tea leaves too.

>I'm confused.

No, just very credulous.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: mpon@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Malcolm Pon)
Subject: Re: mold on Maple syrup
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:16:05 GMT

In article <secxZk600WBMA6wkkk@andrew.cmu.edu> Brenda Graham <bg0s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Can anyone tell me whether the substance which has grown on the surface
>of my unrefrigerated maple syrup (bought in bulk at a food coop) during
>hot and humid august (but has not grown there ever before that I
>recollect) is unharmful mold that can be skimmed off or is something
>that deserves more respect (and distance). Its greenish and pretty
>benign looking.

Well, I've risked certain death (I'm sure) by just straining off the
mold and not even boiling the syrup.  I don't often do risky things.
I'm not a bungee (sp) jumper or anything.  Anyway... I haven't died yet,
and I've done this kind of risky behavior more than once.

However, I'm surer about giving you Joy of Cooking advice, which, if I
recall correctly, does include an instruction about boiling the syrup
after you've skimmed.

Malcolm
-- 
						      ____
 - Malcolm Pon 					      \ _/__
Internet: mpon@gmuvax2.gmu.edu    GEnie: ETERNITY      \\  /
"Why do we CRUCIFY ourselves?" - Tori Amos               \/
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Subject: Re: Who is who of rec.food.veg - Version 1
Organization: Abo Akademi University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:31:35 GMT

In article <matt.715299154@centerline.com> matt@centerline.com (Matt Landau) writes:
>As a non-lurking, non-omnivore on rec.food.veg I found this "list" 
>to be incomplete, inaccurate, and patently offensive in its attempt 
>to arbitrarily categorize and (re)define the viewpoints of readers 
>and posters.  How presumptuous!

Very.

Please understand that this is not a serious attempt to list
everyone here, but we could later make the list a little
accurate (it can't be complete) and less offensive and less
patently, at least.

With regards,



-- 
A. Bulsari                                       Tel.  358 (21) 654 721
V{rmeteknik, ]bo Akademi                         Fax   358 (21) 654 792
Va"rmeteknik, A'bo Akademi   (for the non-Scandinavian screen impaired)
SF 20500 Turku, Finland                          Tlx  57 62301 AABIB SF
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: coleman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michele Coleman)
Subject: help with old tofu
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 00:56:41 GMT

     How long does tofu in the original package stay fresh in the refrigerator?
Someone moved out of my house some time ago and left it behind.
     Thanks!
				--Michele Coleman
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: othomas@athena.mit.edu (oliver thomas)
Subject: REQUEST: ftp archive of rec.food.recipes
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:24:15 GMT


I am looking for the archive site of rec.food.recipes. Someone posted it on
this group a short while ago, but unfortunately our news server doesn't retain
enough articles for me to find it. The information is also not in the FAQ of
this group. (Don't have access to the FAQ of rec.food.recipes). So, sorry for
wasting bandwidth, but please sen me mail with the information if you can.

thanks,

oliver thomas
othomas@athena.mit.edu
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 30 Aug 92 15:55:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: eng.1992Aug30.155558.25110
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <altar.715171376@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:
> 
>Yes, and as an intelligent and skeptical readership we demand and
>deserve evidence one way or another.  Now, just to help advance
>debate here a little further and show that good people like Anne
>Nield are not to be dismissed so quickly, especially with rude

Ted,

I read your lengthy discourse, but don't give me this business of
your being an open-minded, intelligent, yet skeptical readership.
You are totally biased in favor of any and all speculative medical
treatments, even when there is no data to show they are proven
or even safe.

Let's get one thing straight. Doctors involved in "alternative
medicine" practices are among the wealthiest in the United States,
and it's all because they are willing to engage in sleazy, unethical
procedures that often leave their patients flat broke if not dead.
Much of what they do is not even reimbursable to the patient by their
health insurance because the treatments are unrecognized.

Since Jane Heimlich is obviously one of your mentors, let me give you
just one example of the crap she publishes that I believe even you
would object to. Her newsletter recently featured an article stating
that all parents should give their children dilatin because "studies
have shown" it to be a safe, effective method to boost intelligence
and creativity. Knowing that most doctors will refuse to give a child
the prescription, she went on to tell her readership how parent's
could obtain the drug without a doctor's prescription. This is only
one of many examples of Jane's misinformation. Some of what she
recommends is not even legal. Jane is in the business of making big
profits by selling sensational misinformation through the popular press.
The fact that her books are big sellers says nothing about the validity
of their content, but that fact that you like her says quite a bit
about you. 

Ted, you're a big fish in a small pond here in rec.food.veg, but don't
ever try to post anything like this in sci.med or among any other
group of knowledgeable people because you will be exposed for what you
really are... a person with a little bit of knowledge who thinks he's
an expert.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: anne@cs.UAlberta.CA (Anne J.R. Nield)
Subject: Radio show - naturopathy
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:39:00 GMT

For those who are interested and can get it, the Vicki Gabereau show
on CBC radio (AM) this afternoon is featuring an interview with
a man reputed to be England's top naturopathic physician.  I believe
his name is Dr. DeVries.  (CBC is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
for those who obviously WON'T be able to get it!:)

I believe the show is on at around 2:00 but I'm not sure about that.

Also, since I won't be able to tune in where I work, if anyone DOES
catch it and would be able to tape it, I would be delighted to buy
the tape from you.

Gracias!

Anne

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar)
Subject: Re: Vegetarian foods with all necessary amino acids?
Organization: UTCS Campus Access
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:36:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.212140.27675@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cdonnell@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Chris E Donnell) writes:
# I am a new vegetarian and have a few questions for experienced vegetarians out
# there in netland.  I read somewhere that a human needs all 8 essential amino 
# acids at each meal so that they can be synthesized into the body.  If this is 
# true, is there any vegetarian foods that contain these 8 amino acids? 

Lots of vegetarian foods contain all essential amino acids, except that most
of them don't match the proportions deemed to be optimal.  But this need
be of no concern to you, you'll get all the protein you need just by eating
enough to avoid being hungry.

# Is there a recognized vegetarian 'bible'?  I am looking for a book on 
# vetarianism that has calorie, protein, and carbohydrate info on all vegetables
# and fruits?

In addition to all the books recommended by others, I suggest you take a look
at "The New Laurel's Kitchen".  It has a good section on nutrition, has
a comprehensive extract of Penningtons Food Values, and is a first rate
cookbook.  Unfortunatly, the recipes often use dairy products, but if you're 
not trying to avoid dairy products then it won't be a problem.  Take a look
at the book and decide for yourself.

Regards,
Tom
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Nutrasweet infoexit
From: demers@mdcbbs.com (Diane DeMers)
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:25:36 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: M&E (Division of EDS), Cypress CA

In article <1992Aug24.225342.13686@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug24.165521.42529@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> cromwell@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

[discussion of phenylalanine and statement by cromwell@etc. that foods
with aspartame should contain warning labels]
|> 
|> I mean, clearly, if you feel lousy after eating something with aspartame
|> or you don't like the idea of using it, then don't use it.  I think a
|> warning label for anyone other than phenylketonurics would be premature.
|> 
|> -- 
|> Steve Dyer
|> dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer

I agree with Steve. Even though I do sometimes get headaches from 
Nutra-sweet, as far as I know (I haven't researched it, tho), nobody
*really* knows why some people get these headaches. There's an awful
lot that the medical establishment doesn't know about headaches in
general, but it doesn't necessarily follow that "health-food gurus"
know any more. Heck, it could even be a type of allergy. 

I get an upset stomach and migraines from drinking orange juice (and I 
know several others also like this), but I don't think that OJ should 
have warning labels; I simply don't drink it anymore.

diane
-- 
Diane DeMers - demers@MDCBBS.COM - (714) 952-6571 EDS Unigraphics Div.
   snail-mail: 10824 Hope Street, Mail Stop 2S-137, Cypress, CA 90630
   ************ insert generic disclaimer here ***********
From: howard@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Public Statement.
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:41:21 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Sep1.134523.1305@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> In article <0eckgPG00WAx4E6lIR@andrew.cmu.edu> dm3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (David F. McWade) writes:
>>I am getting very angry at people like Steve Dyer and Rich Young who
>>insist on attacking and flaming vegetarians viciously in the heat of
>>argument.
> 
> Actually, I'm more than a little tired of comments like this.
> 
> Frankly, your name/address doesn't ring a bell with me, 

I also am very angry at the tone of Steve Dyer's posts and his nearly
total domination of this group over the past month. For your information, 
David McWade was an extremely thoughtful vegan poster who posted a 
great deal during the last academic year. I believe Steve Dyer has only
been posting during the last 2 months. I would appreciate from Steve Dyer
more consideration for other posters than this. It takes a lot to get
me angry, but having gone away for 3 weeks and coming back to find
Michael Traub no longer feels even able to post certainly does make
me most concerned. 

-Mary Howard

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: guncer@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Otomatik Portakal )
Subject: Re: silk, how is it made?
Keywords: meat-eaters
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:23:21 GMT

In article <16760@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, kuan@taquito.engr.ucdavis.edu (Frank Kuan) writes:
> 
> How is silk made? Specifically, I'd like to know what degree silk
> worms are inconvenienced, and whether they are killed
> to facilitate mass production of silk. I'm a vegetarian for ethical
> reasons, and I'd like to know so I can alter my wardrobe accordingly.
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> - Frank
> 

Silk is the filament secreted by the silkworm (bombyx mori) to weave
a cocoon around it. After about two weeks of life in the cocoon,
the worm breaks the cocoon and emerges out as an adult moth.  

What is done to produce silk, however, is to heat the cocoon once it 
completely covers the worm and kill it. So silk is by no means a 
cruelty-free product. 

How many worms are killed to produce  1 m2 of silk/satin I don't know, 
a rough guess would be (one cocoon ~ 1000m of filament, ~ ten filaments 
to 1 thread, ~100 threads/cm) around 100 worms? Someone correct me.

Selim Guncer

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: young@serum.kodak.com
Subject: Re: an idea
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 13:33:41 GMT

In article <altar.715031729@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:

[...much verbosity deleted...]

>All very reassuring, but I don't think you are being candid with
>us about what you really think about vegetarianism.  Permit to
>post a reminder of your own words:

[...much more verbosity deleted...]

	No, "ted", what you reprinted shows what I think of McDougall and
	Robbins, NOT what I think of vegetarians or vegetarianism.

	Now, permit me to quote from one of my recent postings; perhaps
	you'd like to analyze the reasoning behind this "Rich is an anti-
	vegetarian" posting in light of the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Now, if you feel the need to respond, take pity upon those who have
   complained (with some justification) about the signal to noise ratio
   herein, and send e-mail.  Further postings in this vein would serve only
   to subjugate the wishes of other readers to your own.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

	You have just proven to the world that your true goal is to vent your
	spleen in public, not to perform any useful function in the newsgroup.
	Once again, I invite you to respond in e-mail and spare those readers
	who have no desire to waste time on your displays of intolerance.


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix)
Subject: Re: questionaire on reasons to be veggie
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 22:55:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Aug25.211054.24995@athena.mit.edu> adrothst@athena.mit.edu (Andrew D Rothstein) writes:
>
>Perhaps this has already been looked at, but I was wondering how many people are
>vegetarians for various reasons.  I would make 3 main catagories:
>
>1) Health
>2) Ethics
>3) Environment
>

Vegetarian times had taken this survey of their readers recently. I
don't remeber exactly, but the majority ( I believe it was 67%) were
vegetarians for health reasons.

I am a vegetarian for health reasons, but proud to contribute to a
more humane world by skipping meat and most dairy products...

rf


>
>If people could e-mail me their reasons (semi-veggies can send the reason(s) that
>they are trying to cut out meat), with further sub-classifications (perhaps
>someone out there is a vegetarian because they once had a pet turkey?  or maybe
>someone hates there parents so much that they gave up meat just to piss them off?
>:-) )if necessary, I will eventually post a summary of the results.  Thanks.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Andy Rothstein			"If you want to kiss the sky,
>adrothst@athena.mit.edu		you'd better learn how to kneel" - U2
>
>*****************************************************************
>The views expressed herein are mine own and do not necessarily 
>reflect the opinions and beliefs of MIT
>****************************************************************