From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians (fwd)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:11:47 GMT

	Note - I have done some editing here.  Steve's original article
appeared in soc.culture.jewish.  I just went and made a copy of my
reply to that and I have deleted Steve's article (after the attribution
line) In its place I include my reply (which, as I said originally
appeared in soc.culture.jewish) which includes Steve's original article
there.

	It was easy for me to do it this way and I apologize if there are
any discrepencies.

In article <1gtbv7INNnf8@mizar.usc.edu> srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose) writes:

# Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians is wrong, for at least three
# reasons.

	That may be (although I doubt it).  However, you have not shown
why.

# 1. It is illegal (according to Israeli, as well as international
# law).

	Since the Israeli Supreme court allowed it, you are an idiot if
you think it is illegal according to Israeli law.  As to international
law, it is only illegal if you assume the FALSE interpretation of the
fourth geneva concention that all deportations are illegal.

	At any rate, even if it is illegal under international law, it is
the obligation of any government to protect its citizens before
engaging in any kind of consideration about whether some actions are
allowed under international law.

# 2. It is only the most recent example of a sick policy of 
# collective punishment.

	Here you may be right, but it does not make your point.  Of course
these things are sick.  They would be unecessary if Kach's platform
were adopted.

# 3. It may well destroy what is left of the 
# peace process.

	There is no "peace" process.  Only a "piece" process by which
Israel will be destroyed piece by piece.  If you believe otherwise you
are ignorant.

# 1. According to the Los Angeles Times (Friday, December 18, 1992, p A18),
# "Lawyers for the Palestinians argued that not only did the deportations
# violate basic human rights but that the government was also violating
# Israeli law, which assures a deportee the right of appeal to military
# and civilian tribunals." and...
# "Rabin said that the usual legal prcedures were bypassed because they have
# proved to be too slow."

	Well the Israeli Supreme court has made its decision on legality.
And from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong) they can still
appeal.

	However, what Rabin said does make sense.

# We all have reason to be concerned when those in power bypass the "usual
# legal procedures" because they are "too slow".  That is the road to
# authoritarianism.

	Wrong.  It is the road to protection.  This policy was
democratically approved, and is favored by 90% of the Israeli public.

# "Minor legal details" like due process of law, rights
# of free speech etc. are there to protect us from abuses of government.
# By allowing these rights to be bypassed for reasons of convenience 
# (or other even less honorable reasons) we take a big step toward 
# allowing governments to take these rights away from all of us.

	What you seem to be missing is that the only abuses here are by
the terrorists and the govern,ment for previously having dealt with
the terrorists in a weak and wimpy way.

# 2. Israel has a long history of inflicting collective punishments for
# individual crimes.  I believe that killings, whether of Israeli soldiers in
# the occupied territories or of Palestinian youths opposing the occupation,
# are to be deplored.  However, when a government, as its formal policy, 
# reacts by punishing - not those found responsible, but others who are
# innocent except for the "crime" of being a Palestinian, or being an
# Islamic Fundamentalist - that is also deplorable.

	They are not being punished as much as they are being sent away to
where they can no longer cause mayhem and behave like aninmals against
Israelis (and their brother Arabs living in Israel).  How come you
only deplore terrorism now that action has been taken against it?

# According to the same article in the Los Angeles Times, Prime Minister
# Rabin is quoted as saying that the expulsion was the "most humane" option.
# "Don't forget the alternatives - the death penalty, demoslishing houses,
# mass arrests." he goes on to state.

	I agree, if Kach's platform would be adopted, none of those would
be necessary.

# That Prime Minister Rabin would consider these as alternatives is evidence
# enough that these types of punishments are given common consideration by
# Israel.  Demolishing houses of innocent people in a community where other
# alleged crimes have occured has, for years, been a common practice of the
# Israeli occupation.  Other practices - mass arrests, beatings etc.
# have also been common.

	Obviously not common and/or effective enough to have done any good.

# 3. The deportations will certainly cause harm to, if not totally destroy,
# what is left of the peace process.  The Rabin government came to power
# with a pledge to participate in this process.  They have had a mighty
# funny way of showing their commitment to making peace.

	I agree they have a funny way of showing their commitment to
peace.  The only way for Israel to have any peace is to impose
solutions.  As much as you might not like that, it is a fact.  The
cowtowing the Rabin government has done to the Arabs to make "peace"
only weakens Israel.

# I believe that it is clear that the Palestinian extremists responsible for
# the recent killings had, as their intention, the destruction of the peace
# process.  Israel, by its action of expelling over 400 Palestinians, should
# make those on both sides committed to destroying the possibilities of peace
# very happy indeed.

	It did not need to be destroyed.  Any kind of peace was impossible
from the outset.  No matter what you say, the most the Israelis could
give up is a million miles from the least the Arabs can accept.  If
the "process" has been destroyed, at least a lot of peoples' time
will not have been wasted.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast