HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: honorifics, MU*s, bronze/gold pairings 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:25:13 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <724869966snz@keris.demon.co.uk>, chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton) writes:

> Firelizards, of course, will look to whoever first feeds them,
> irrespective of gender (or species, it seems).  One of the things that
> Kitti Pring put in was the gender bias for the gold and bronze.  Quite
> why only males were permitted to ride the colours in the first place is
> a matter for speculation.
> 
> Here's one theory, and I'm quite prepared to have to shot down if people
> can give me good arguments against:
> 
> Given that there is no natural contraceptive on Pern, it seems likely
> that any sexually active female (and that includes all the dragonriders)
> will become pregnant frequently.  This means that female dragonriders
> will tend to be not able to fight thread a large proportion of the time
> (remember that going *between* is dangerous when pregnant).  During a
> Pass this is going to be unacceptable, so the ban was introduced.

Another possible reason for an across-the-board ban against females riding
colored dragons:

Fighting Thread is dangerous. Anyone doing so is running a risk of severe
injury or death. Now the Pernese, particularly in the beginning, would have
had to have a good birth rate if they wanted a chance to survive on the
planet. It's a dangerous place, and not only do they want to replace deaths,
they ought to be increasing the population as well.

Birthrate, as we all know, depends solely on the number of fertile females
in the population. If a few males die, well, the women can conceive with
someone else, but if some females die, then nobody else can substitute for
those lost potential children. Thus, a ban on females riding colors would
allow more women as childbearers. This also interlocks with the suggestion
above--a woman flying Thread, even if she isn't hurt, is less likely to be
able to bear children.

A very simple possibility:

When the colonists saw that the metallics had been genetically designed to
Impress same-sex riders only, they may have assumed that the same was the
case for all colors, and never even tried offering female candidates.

--Semhaza
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Subject: Re: So, is it over?
Reply-To: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:17:29 GMT

In article <alix.725015902@pv663d.vincent.iastate.edu> 
alix@iastate.edu (L.A. Melloy) writes:
>Telgar), or about the other hero mentioned in the first book (I always
>get "Quest" and "Flight" confused! :-) ) at the same time Moreta is mentioned
>(falsely connected with Benden, I might add).

The other hero, Torene, was the founding Weyrwoman of Benden Weyr. She was 
Sorka's son's weyrmate and a daughter of the Hanrahan clan. Ever notice how,
despite the rampant sexism, Pern's hero's are women?

-Doriana, rider of Green Tayefeth

   Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully  -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
		jenneke is: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
From: ambar@cygnus.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: (MUSH) Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: 25 Dec 92 03:32:03 GMT
	<30199@hoptoad.uucp> <1hclpgINNle3@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: Redheads Anonymous
In-reply-to: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu's message of 24 Dec 1992 15:42:40 GMT

In article <1hclpgINNle3@gap.caltech.edu> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:

   Call me stupid or something (and you have before, on similar issues),
   but you're staying that biiiiiiiiig violations are a-okay and hunky-dory,
   but little violations are bad bad bad?

No, what I wrote was that certain big violations have been sanctioned,
only with plenty of thought and for reasons that affect the health of
the game itself.

What you write up there is just ridiculous.  Are you trying to claim
that PernMUSH sanctions "biiiiiiiiig violations" like, oh, baseball
cards, laser weapons, and 12-foot-high avians trying to Impress?  No?
Then let's stick to the subject.

The subject, last *I* checked, was the difference between forcing all
female characters to compete for the (very) limited pool of golds, vs
requiring all female riders (gold or not) to use McCaffery's convention
of dragonrider naming.

What I seem to be hearing is that it's okay to ignore "small" things
(ie, bronze/gold gender restriction, female rider honorifics) because
PernMUSH already ignores some "big" things (ie, allowing women to
Impress blue and brown dragons).  This is bogus.  The things that get
ignored, get ignored for GOOD REASON.  If you can't come up with some
good reasons for your own pet Pern peeve (better than "Mommy, mommy, you
let HIM have HIS way!"), then why should anyone listen to you?

(And, Ken, I could equally well disparage your opinions on the subject
because you don't run a fighting female rider at all, let alone as your
major character.  But I think arguing personalities is pointless.)

				AMBAR
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: kogoma@triton.unm.edu (Taki Kogoma)
Subject: Re: (MUSH) Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 07:57:07 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <92Dec31.211441.20346@acs.ucalgary.ca> jsbell@acs.ucalgary.ca (Joshua Bell) writes:
>So the Pernese don't pronounce things the way you do: feLAR ->
>F'lar, faNOR -> F'nor, corMIC -> C'mic, mirRIM -> M'rrim,
>feLESsan -> F'lessan. Any brits out there wanna confirm if this
>pronounciation of names is typical for those across the pond?

What does Brit pronunciation have to do with it?  Remember,
McCaffrey's from Joisey...er...New Jersey. ;-)  (The audio version of
AtWoP read by her shows that she still has a mild NJ accent...with
just a touch of Irish bleeding in. ;-)

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  kogoma@triton.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
From: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: honorifics, MU*s, bronze/gold pairings
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:52:20 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: globie.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec21.192513.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>A very simple possibility:
>
>When the colonists saw that the metallics had been genetically designed to
>Impress same-sex riders only, they may have assumed that the same was the
>case for all colors, and never even tried offering female candidates.
>
>--Semhaza

Green dragons are female.


     ___________                                             ___________
     |         |             M A L A C H I T E               |         |
     |   '"'   |                                             |   '"'   |
     |  '"""'  |                 Brum Hold                   |  '"""'  |
     |  """""  |                                             |  """""  |
      \'"""""'/           morpheus@cco.caltech.edu            \'"""""'/
       \_____/   "Yo he yo!"                 "Rice is Nice!"   \_____/
From: cag@ems.cdc.com (Carol Gaupp)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: MUSH related reply to Re: Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:22:38 GMT
Reply-To: cag@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of Ceridian

In article <1992Dec22.173529.19165@news.columbia.edu>, jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
|> In article <1h7fodINNh9s@gap.caltech.edu> 
|> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:

< stuff deleted >

|> 
|> >(I love doing stuff like this.  Yes, I kick beehives, too.)
|> 
|> The real questions is: Do you kick pigeons?
|> 
|> -Doriana/Pandat
|> 

   Hee! I couldn't resist this one. Yes, he does. ;)

   Arianna (also known as 'Pigeon' to some (hi Siegal))
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: alix@iastate.edu (L.A. Melloy)
Subject: Re: Gender bias in dragonriders (WAS honorifics, MU*s, bronze/gold)
Keywords: bronze/gold pairings
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 05:59:13 GMT

I wish I had my copy of "Dragonsdawn" handy. Unfortunately, it's at school
(where I wish I was right now!).  I'll find a copy of the book somewhere, and
post my findings later.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leigh Ann Melloy  |  "I would like us to come together and build......
alix@iastate.edu  |                a chopstick." - From the movie _Mr._Baseball
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: honorifics, MU*s, bronze/gold pairings 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:45:40 +0000

In article <1h57ekINN26n@gap.caltech.edu> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu writes:

>When/where/what?  I've -never- seen anything from Anne saying "females
>can ride browns, but they can't ride bronzes" or something to that
>effect.

I've heard it through Ista Weyr (9th Pass offline) and other offline
Weyrs - I'll try to get a full reference.  I doubt that it will be
before Turn's End, though...

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
From: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: 22 Dec 1992 18:29:10 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: globie.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec22.173529.19165@news.columbia.edu> jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
>In article <1h7fodINNh9s@gap.caltech.edu> 
>morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:
>>Monkey wrench?  Naw.  PernMU*s don't really care that much about sticking
>>to theme.  :)  (Yes, you drooling MustBeInTheme Fanatics--there's nothing
>>in the books, after Mirrim or before it, to suggest that Path is anything
>>other than a one-time exception to the rule.  *grin*  And certainly ab-
>>solutely nothing to support females riding blues and browns.)

>True enough. Of course, women riding fighting dragons isn't the only way in
>which the MU*'s don't follow the novels (or even the DLG) perfectly. For
>example, when did Weyrs acquire Stewards? Certainly Moreta's Fort doesn't
>have one.

There are dozens and dozens of ways in which the MU*s don't follow the
novels or the DLG, or don't even -try- to do so in certain cases.  Thus,
it always cracks me up when I hear the cry of 'but that would violate
theme in a minor little tiny way!' on a MUSH.  :)  (E.g., females with
honorifics in their names.)

>If someone were to start a strictly canon MU* set in say, the 5th Pass, I'd
>play there. Of course, I'm one of those icky, yucky people who doesn't see
>anything wrong with playing characters whose gender/orientation is different
>from my own RL, so only allowing male characters to be fighting riders wouldn't
>prevent me from playing a 'rider.

Ew, yuck, icky-poo, I could never ever play someone like that!

(Okay, I lie.)

>>(I love doing stuff like this.  Yes, I kick beehives, too.)

>The real questions is: Do you kick pigeons?

>-Doriana/Pandat

All the time.  :)  I throw rice cakes at 'em, even.


     ___________                                             ___________
     |         |             M A L A C H I T E               |         |
     |   '"'   |                                             |   '"'   |
     |  '"""'  |                 Brum Hold                   |  '"""'  |
     |  """""  |                                             |  """""  |
      \'"""""'/           morpheus@cco.caltech.edu            \'"""""'/
       \_____/   "Yo he yo!"                 "Rice is Nice!"   \_____/
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: kogoma@vesta.unm.edu (Taki Kogoma)
Subject: Re: New? Pern book
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 01:59:57 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon
Keywords: Pern, Book, Rescue

In article <1992Dec22.024655.17255@samba.oit.unc.edu> Michael.Gunderson@launchpad.unc.edu (Michael Gunderson) writes:
>
>  Just got my latest flyer from the Science-Fiction Book Club, and along
>with all the normal fare was a Pern page including a book called _Rescue
>Run_ by Anne McCaffrey, supposedly set 49 years after DragonsDawn.

Hmmm...I diddn't see that in the last packet from the SF book club I
received...must be in the next one.  (Goody! ;-)

>  Did I miss this book entirely when it first came out? Or is it a new
>Pern novel?

"Rescue Run" was the title of a novella Ms. McCaffrey published in
August of 1991 in _Analog_.  It was set post-1st pass from the POV of
an FSP cruiser investigating the Sagitarius Sector.  As part of the
obligatory cross-reference, the leader of the investigating team is
named Ross Benden. ;-)

(I guess this book is the long-awaited 'Pern Anthology'.)

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  kogoma@vesta.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Mushy stuff...
From: jtraub+@cs.cmu.edu (Joseph Traub)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:50:09 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Okay,
  Chris, thanks for posting Misty's letter.  I didn't post it here, but I
was aware of it, AND had double checked with Anne to make sure that letter
didn't change the status of PernMUSH, it doesn't.

However, Anne did set down the dictum which is that PernMUSH MUST follow
the same rules as are followed by the offline fannish weyrs.  IE _NO_
colors other than the standard colors of dragons.  _NO_ characters
from the books.  _NO_ women impressing bronzes and men impressing
golds.  _YES_ to women impressing other colored dragons.  I believe
that offline weyrs also allow women to contract their names if they wish
and as far as MUSH goes, I consider that to be a weyr decision NOT a
game one.

Hopefully this letter will kill two threads at once, but somehow I doubt
it (for those who don't know which two threads, just look at the thread
this is posted in, and Ken's recent drooling at Ambar)

--Moonchilde

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty --Anonymous
Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours --Richard Bach
Isn't humanity egocentric? Whenever we talk, we say "Here's my two cents
From: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:29:01 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: globie.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec21.230519.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>Maybe they did try it early on, but there *was* a genetic code implanted
>for males only Impressing colors. After several failures, they gave up
>offering females to the lesser dragons. Since that time, a mutation occured.

>This has the advantage of explaining why no dragon in 2000+ years has
>Impressed a woman, although it was evidently very important to Path (she
>sought Mirrim out in the audience, recall). Do you really think that no
>dragon in 2000+ years has preferred a woman? After all, the queen candidates
>were right there on the Hatching Grounds; why wouldn't an eager green pick
>one of them? 

Well, of course, we know the real reason is sloppy writing from Anne. :)

>This may also explain why no other dragons have picked females since Mirrim;
>perhaps Path was a unique mutation. After all, Pernese women have become
>more equal in other ways since then--there are oodles of women in the crafts
>in ATWOP. Why wouldn't more women be Impressed, since the Weyrs are the most
>progressive in many ways, unless they were *unable* to Impress?

This makes a bit of sense to me.  

>This has the disadvantages of 1. being rather speculative and 2. possibly
>throwing a monkey wrench in MU*s that allow women to ride th colors (if
>Path is a unique mutation).

Nothing wrong with speculation, that's what most of this newsgroup is
about.  :)

Monkey wrench?  Naw.  PernMU*s don't really care that much about sticking
to theme.  :)  (Yes, you drooling MustBeInTheme Fanatics--there's nothing
in the books, after Mirrim or before it, to suggest that Path is anything
other than a one-time exception to the rule.  *grin*  And certainly ab-
solutely nothing to support females riding blues and browns.)

(I love doing stuff like this.  Yes, I kick beehives, too.)

>Comments?

>--Semhaza


     ___________                                             ___________
     |         |             M A L A C H I T E               |         |
     |   '"'   |                                             |   '"'   |
     |  '"""'  |                 Brum Hold                   |  '"""'  |
     |  """""  |                                             |  """""  |
      \'"""""'/           morpheus@cco.caltech.edu            \'"""""'/
       \_____/   "Yo he yo!"                 "Rice is Nice!"   \_____/
From: Michael.Gunderson@launchpad.unc.edu (Michael Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: New? Pern book
Summary: Did I miss Rescue Run?
Keywords: Pern, Book, Rescue
Date: 22 Dec 92 02:46:55 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service


  Just got my latest flyer from the Science-Fiction Book Club, and along
with all the normal fare was a Pern page including a book called _Rescue
Run_ by Anne McCaffrey, supposedly set 49 years after DragonsDawn.

  Did I miss this book entirely when it first came out? Or is it a new
Pern novel?

                    Mike     ->



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: ambar@cygnus.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: (MUSH) Those Wacky Cross-Gender Impressing Dragons
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:26:08 GMT
	<1h7mpmINNjaa@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: Redheads Anonymous
In-reply-to: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu's message of 22 Dec 1992 18:29:10 GMT

In article <1h7mpmINNjaa@gap.caltech.edu> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:

   There are dozens and dozens of ways in which the MU*s don't follow the
   novels or the DLG, or don't even -try- to do so in certain cases.  Thus,
   it always cracks me up when I hear the cry of 'but that would violate
   theme in a minor little tiny way!' on a MUSH.  :)  (E.g., females with
   honorifics in their names.)

Sure.  But when one decides to violate genre in a major way, (eg,
allowing females to Impress blues and browns, despite not the least hint
of support for this in the books), one does so for very good reasons.

(Digression: It's not so much that I think cross-gender characters ought
to be discouraged--*I* think people should play whatever gender
characters they damn well please--but I know quite a few (most?)
players, me included, simply don't do cross-gender stuff well, and would
have a very hard time running a cross-gender character who had even a
nominal chance of being Impressed.  This is why I don't take the
position that I think is most supported by the books: namely, that Path
was a unique dragon, like Ruth, and women should only Impress golds.)

Should these violations (not the reasons behind them, even, just the
existence of the violations themselves) then be taken as support for
minor violations of theme?  If so, then why bother with the theme at
all?  We'd surely live in a lot less fear of Anne's lawyers if we simply
made up our own little universe of little cuddly creatures, big
impressive creatures, danger and derring-do, love and lust.... and
didn't call it Pern.

				AMBAR
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: ambar@cygnus.com (Jean Marie Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: male fertility in Between
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:07:16 GMT
Organization: Redheads Anonymous
In-reply-to: David.Berriman@anu.edu.au's message of 22 Dec 1992 23:49:49 GMT

In article <1h89itINNdcu@manuel.anu.edu.au> David.Berriman@anu.edu.au (Cyalodin) writes:

   Actually, cold increases sperm production, so Between may have some
   positive effects on male fertility.

Er, no.  Sperm are only happy in a very limited range of temperatures...
body heat is too hot (why monorchids and cryptorchids are frequently
sterile), much colder than that is too cold... hence the muscular system
in the scrotum, which is a limited temperature-control device.

				AMBAR
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
From: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: Mushy stuff...
Date: 30 Dec 1992 19:41:39 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: globie.caltech.edu

In article <C01GJp.7t9.1@cs.cmu.edu> jtraub+@cs.cmu.edu (Joseph Traub) writes:
>I believe
>that offline weyrs also allow women to contract their names if they wish
>and as far as MUSH goes, I consider that to be a weyr decision NOT a
>game one.

Yay.  This is what I was trying to say all along, that it should be a
weyr decision.  Thanks for going along with that logic.

>Hopefully this letter will kill two threads at once, but somehow I doubt
>it (for those who don't know which two threads, just look at the thread
>this is posted in, and Ken's recent drooling at Ambar)

Heh.  Interesting summary.

But at least Ambar can't rant at me about how horribly I'd destroy Pern
the next time I question whether or not it's a game decision that she
as a wizard can impose, or if it's a weyr decision.  It's a little frust-
trating when wizards overstep their bounds like that.

>--Moonchilde

     ___________                                             ___________
     |         |             M A L A C H I T E               |         |
     |   '"'   |                                             |   '"'   |
     |  '"""'  |                 Brum Hold                   |  '"""'  |
     |  """""  |                                             |  """""  |
      \'"""""'/           morpheus@cco.caltech.edu            \'"""""'/
       \_____/   "Yo he yo!"                 "Rice is Nice!"   \_____/
From: z_coolidgeas@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: re: Most bizarre cross posting ever.
Date: 21 Dec 92 11:45:13 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

I think Deanna Troi of Star Trek TNG fame wouldn't impress a gold at all.  A
Green at the very least.  And her name will be Empath.:)


Whoa...this is getting silly.  OK, back to our regularly scheduled pernstuff.

And Merry Christmas, Turn's End, etc, to you all!!!!

--Akane