From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:12:08 GMT

Isaac Balbin writes:
>Stan Krieger writes:

>>>It does, always has, and always will, and you acknowledge that yourself.

>>Huh?

>Yes, you do, everytime you complain that Orthodox define the religion.

No, what I say is that the Orthodox are under the mistaken impression
that theirs is the only legitimate interpretation of God's Word
to us.

>>Yes, there is a theological distinction; that's why there are O, C,
>>and R.  The only problem is that O doesn't acknowledge the
>>legitimacy of C and R, and to the extent that it tries to
>>discredit C and R, which is what Tisha B'Av is probably all about.

>Really? Tisha B'av is not about theological illegitimacy which is
>exactly what Reform and Conservative are from the Orthodox standpoint.
>You have no business complaining about someone's right to deligitimise
>a manifestation of Judaism that they claim to be off-line.

Tisha B'Av is, among other things, a story of civil war among
our own ancestors after Josephus turned traitor in the Galilee.
We were fighting each other instead of the real enemy, the Romans.
It looks like you feel you have to maintain the family tradition.

>>In case you forgot, we are one people, and the infighting over
>>whether the child of a woman converted by a Bet Din of Conservative
>>Rabbis is Jewish is just as harmful to our people as are our
>>real enemies.

>Please. We are more than a people. We are also a religion and our religion
>does not allow us to bow to manifestations of Judaism that our sages
>tell us are wrong.

And who are these sages whom you are quoting, and how many of them
predate the Reform Movement?

>>Maintain your theological conviction all you want, but don't forget
>>the REALITY that what you observe as Judaism is one of several
>>LEGITIMATE interpretations of what God expects of US, the Jewish
>>people.

>You are entitled to your view Stanley, but I maintain that yours
>is a flawed view. The only reality I accept is the one called
>Torah. From where I stand, according to our sages, the other
>manifestations of Judaism are not valid.

That is your OPINION that mine is a flawed view; it is not
reality, and I am not bound by your opinion.

>>You seem to, very conveniently, forget that reality, and
>>are willing to exclude 90% of your co-religionists from "your"
>>religion.  Look it's OUR religion, and don't you for one second
>>ever forget that we're in it together.

>You know  very well that I cannot and do not want to  exclude someone
>who is born Jewish. Each JEW is a holy individual.
>My definition of JEW and yours are different.
>Don't play silly little word games and say, `Oooo, Balbin excludes 90%
>of those who have a connection with Jews.' Balbin doesn't EXCLUDE.
>There are definitions and when someone is not included in a mandated
>definition they can't be EXCLUDED---they were never considered PART!

I really don't give a damn who YOU say is included and who isn't; your
sect does not define our COMMON religion for ALL of us.  If you want
to work with the rest of YOUR community is a constructive manner to
resolve our differences, you're more than welcome, but if your attitude
is that you're the only one observing Judaism correctly, then you
are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

>Reality is something that hasn't hit YOU.
>The Reality is that Orthodox Judaism will never accept new definitions
>that are not halachikally mandated.
>When that Reality hits you a few times you will cease wasting our time
>by trying to convince us that we should accept every strain of
>Judaism invented since Kingdom come.

No, you don't have to accept every "strain"; all you have to accept is
that your INTERPRETATION of what God expects of us is just one of
SEVERAL valid, legitimate, interpretations.  As I've often said,
if you don't want to recite Kaddish in a Conservative synagogue,
that's your right, but it's not your right to advise someone that the
mitzvah wasn't met because they recited Kaddish in a minyan of 6 other
men and 3 or more women, nor is it your right to refer to the daughter
of a women whose conversion to Judaism was handled by a Bet Din of
Conservative Rabbis, and who is trying to get your son to notice her,
as "the shikse".

-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
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