From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.amiga.demos
Subject: Re: Phenomena egos??
Date: 8 Nov 1992 01:07:53 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

mjbrown@lonestar.utsa.edu (Marc J. Brown) writes:

>In article <1dg7r7INNjil@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>
>>Well, why should we know about EUROdemos?

>Because they are a standard by which other coding efforts should be
>judged.  Even commercial works pale insofar as coding complexity and
>efficiency go.  Also, if Americans were to ever again code a demo, they'd
>be better off using PAL... you get better res, more things can be done
>per vblank... I'd take those two over a slightly-sharper-image anyday.

Well, commercial people write applications and games and stuff that can
be easily ported to other machines.  Remember that the Amiga is not the
most prolific machine in the world.  In the stores here in the US, one
cannot even purchase Amiga software (of course, there are a few Amiga
shops, but they are few and far between).

And, in so making a program portable, you naturally lose some efficiency.
Sure, if the programmers wanted to write everything in machine code, they
could squeeze everything down, but what's the point, really?  Todays
machines are fast enough (unless you're still using a 68000) to handle
a little code sloppiness.  Portability is more important, now.

>>Now wait.  The Amiga is not a very popular computer here in the US.  Most
>>people have Macs or IBMs.  It is not all that surprising that there aren't
>>many American demos.  It is not that there just aren't any GOOD
>>American demos--there just aren't ANY American demos.

>That sums it up pretty well :).  It's interesting to note, however, that
>there's no reason why there aren't at least some American members in
>so-&-so groups... now that the Internet is so much more popular, this
>is likely to change.

Well, this is not surprising, seeing as how you go around screaming that
American [insert various things here] suck, etc.  I mean, if someone
were trying to degrade me, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a member
of their little group.

>>But here...  out of 1000 or so undergraduates, I'd say there are at most
>>10 Amigas.  That's 1% at such a technically oriented college as mine.

>Isn't propaganda terrible? :)  I think it's ironic that the best computer
>is the least popular... but then, it's also true that morons are a
>majority.

Well, this can be debated in .advocacy.  The Amiga was surely the best
when it was introduced, but now,...

>>Maybe we should be asking you why you don't write more Mac or IBM
>>demos or applications...

>I think it's because Europeans are a bit more realistic, and choose their
>computers more wisely.  Not a flame (except to Mac'n'IBM of course :).
>Oh yeah... Mac&IBM demos are far less practical... you just can't DO
>anything with those... applications (and games with very little action)
>are abundant enough tho :).

Well, that's because when you write for these platforms, you have to write
for every possible configuration (have you ever looked at a QuickTime
thing for the Mac?).  I mean, there are I don't know how many different
types of displays for the Mac and IBMs, etc.  Unix machines are growing
in popularity.  Have you ever tried to write in machine code for a
Unix machine?  That's right, there's not much point.  Everything is
written in C, to be portable, and is compiled on the appropriate machine.

It is fine and dandy that you can write machine code on Amigas, because
the configuration is the same.  But alas, you demos will soon become
a thing of the past.  Each time the hardware upgrades, you have to 
write entire new demos.  Your old demos were optimized to work with all
of the quirks of the old machines, but they just won't cut it with the
new ones.  What are you going to be like in 10 years?  Are you still
going to be programming your A500?  I mean, not that the A500 is a bad
machine, but in today's market, it just isn't top-of-the-line, frankly.

Once you realize that portability and not size and speed optimization
is the emphasis, you will see why no one really bothers to write
demos anymore.  Again, what is the use writing such a thing (other
than to practice your machine code on a single machine) when it will
be useless in but a few years?

Basically, the reason that there aren't many demos being written (here
at least) is the same reason why fewer people are bothering to learn
machine code.  I knew the machine language for my Commodore 64, but
I never bothered to learn it on my Amiga 3000.  I just didn't see any
point.  For most if not all of the things I am doing, C is quite
fast enough.  I also realize, writing in C, that my program will be
useful for years to come, no matter what machine I happen to own at the
time.

So, you can have your machine code, making the neatest demos around.
But don't come screaming in here when you find that your demos aren't
compatible with the new chip set or another new hardware feature.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but I think demos are a thing of the
past.  They are behind the times.  It is great that you know everything
about the A500, but this machine is really becoming an antique.  So,
while there may be better coders there in Europe, it is hard to tell,
because the clever people here in the US seem to be doing more
productive and useful programming.

keith