HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:53:24 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan6.151225.20783@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Nonsense.  If you take two systems with *equal RAM*, running the same
>set of applications, and one system has VM, the only "performance" hit
>in that system is the MMU overhead, which is negligible.

To make a short Story shorter...  (pun intended.  ;)

The performance hit incurred by MMU access != the performance hit
incurred by the existence of VM and the memory map.  Remember, there
is only no penalty if the page you're looking for is in cache.

Seems like we're heading towards the "My TCB is bigger than your TCB"
argument.  :)

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 05:59:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.194909.13115@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>hume smith (emcoop@bnr.ca) wrote:
>:
>: I'd like to know how it is that the Amiga OS
>: seems to take so little memory, and others so much.  Is there a lot in ROM?
>
>Nah, there's not too much in ROM -- just too little in the OS.  [Ducking]

A little OS is better than none at all...

>BTW, how big is 3.0?  Can it all fit on a single diskette?  I don't know why
>I'm asking this; it just seems like the AmigaDroids find it vitally important
>to run their OS from floppy diskettes.

I don't know how big it is, but I do have a boot diskette that works
quite nicely, albeit slowly.  Do I use such a thing?  Hell no, I don't 
use floppies for anything except installing software.  I for one don't
find running from floppies to be important at all and I find it to be
about as useful as running out of virtual memory...  :-)

>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
>| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
>|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: jerry@cs.mcgill.ca (Gerald Jerry KUCH)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: New MB Syntactic Form!
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:25:28 GMT
Organization: SOCS - McGill University, Montreal, Canada

Just when you thought that MB's posts were getting repetitive and boring,
which by the way, has probably been for about three years now, he goes along
and comes up with a new sentence prototype!

This might be trendy.  From now on, we should all make sure to use the
following sentence pattern at least nine times in every posting:

	"[X on the Amiga] is garbage.  [Y on the PC or Mac] blows it
         away."

What a guy.

-- 
 Jerry Kuch (jerry@cs.mcgill.ca)   |  NEED A NEW QUOTE
 "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
  Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet."
                  --- M. Burns  "Treehouse of Horror II"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:16:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.200131.16941@cis.ohio-state.edu> tbrown@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (ted croft brown) writes:
>Oh, and yes Dave Small does tend to make Apple have weenies.  That's one fine
>piece of software engineering.  If you ever meet him he's just one helluva
>nice guy.  (I guess he's sorta an Anti-Mihocka).

   I'm curious.  How much progress has been made in the Atari ST camp in their
Macintosh emulators?  ReadySide has improved A-Max to the point that it can
use genuine Mac hard drives, Amiga partitions formatted for Mac emulation use,
perfectly emulates the Mac Plus sound on faster Macs, run System 7.0.1 
(System 7.1 might also run.  I haven't tested it), use Amiga HD drives to
read and write Mac 1.44M disks, get a 724x482 non-interlaced display on an
A3000, etc.  As well, Emplant seems to be making very substantial progress 
toward an emulator that can do all this and emulate the Mac II in full color
and multitask with Amiga software.

   So, what can the ST Mac emulators do?  Have any Mac II emulators for the
ST or TT been developed yet? 


---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 4 Jan 93 17:21:33 GMT
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie

In <1993Jan4.154432.23110@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

>I disagree.  Look at the size of today's applications, and you will too.
>If you need to multitask several of them, you need VM.

I have to disagree. Exactly _when_ you want to multitask you also want to
avoid VM. Othwerise you degrade multitasking to a slow application switcher.

>Irrelevant.  Hard disk is cheaper than RAM, unless you can tell me where
>I can buy 340MB RAM for $600.

Would be irrelevant if you could use a HD instead of RAM. But this isn't
possible. People always think that VM is as usuable as physical memory.
But in reality you always try to _avoid_ to use more memory than physically
present because VM access is hundred times slower than real memory.

VM is a commodity because you don't have to think what applications are
loaded when you don't need them.

(Of course VM frees some physical memory as the resident set of a program
is smaller than the whole program, but this isn't that significant on
a single user machine).

>There are real-time VM systems, so your notion about VM killing "real-time"
>is incorrect.

Except that the 'real-time' parts of the system explicitely forbid VM but
require physical memory. Sure you could have both.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: ccb8m@onyx.cs.Virginia.EDU (Charles C. Bundy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 7 Jan 93 04:09:14 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department

In article <73061@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>Get an OS design book, and read up on the subject of demand paging.  Actually,
>>a decent VM system won't even bother swapping out code -- it'll just discard
>>it and read it back in from the executable file when necessary.
>
>Oops...there goes all that self-modifying code.
>
>Seriously, this doesn't work so well in situations where you have a lot of
>"clever" assembler language programmers trying to fit all their code into
>a 4K segment (IBM mainframe).

Your typical VM handler will include page/dirty bits so that swap vs discarding
decisions are dynamic.  If your constant section (code) is modified it gets
written to secondary storage, otherwise it is simply discarded (hasn't changed 
since the last page in)

If anybody is interested I wrote some C code that simulates a segmented/paged 
VM system with a 128 entry TLB (VAX arch. except for the added segmentation)

>
>The mainframe VM that I'm familiar with (IBM MVS and IBM VM) swap the actual
>code; they don't reload the executable, since this allows a lot more backward
>compatibility with older code (and newer stuff, too) that is self-modifying.

Are you sure MVS/VM doesn't have some sort of page modify bit?

>
>TomK@cup.portal.com
>Tom Krotchko

Charles C. Bundy IV
ccb8m@virginia.edu
From: Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com (Dale Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM and MAC users, please respond.
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:05:17 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <C05Dvs.3I1@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu 
(Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
> Ok, this is a legitimate question and I mean no offense by it (yet :),
> where other people take the thread, however, is not my fault.
> 
> How did you MAC and IBM users find this group and why did you decide to
> jump in and offer your opinions?  Were you invited?  Did some Amiga user
> wind up in a MAC|IBM group and say something deragatory and you felt you
> had to retaliate?  Did you seek it out?  :)

It's always interesting to read the various "advocacy" groups to get a 
much different point of view than your own.  In the course of doing so, I 
noticed that there's a fair bit of wrong information posted about 
competing machines.  I try to correct this misinformation when I can.

The same situation is pretty much true on all the "advocacy" groups.  
Users of one type of computer (and especially, it seems, those who espouse 
them on the "advocacy" groups)  generally seem to have a lot of 
misconceptions about other types of computers.

- Dale Adams
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: zarthac@bradley.edu (Matthew Simmons)
Subject: Re: Comdex/Quicktime released for the PC
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:52:43 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: cs1.bradley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Dale Adams (Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan5.235654.18056@lth.se> d91ds@efd.lth.se (David 
: Sundqvist) writes:
: > When I last looked at a Mac advertisement (december) they were still 
: > selling MacClassic wich has a 68000 processor. And for twice the price
: > of an a600. So the claim wasnt that far off i think. 
: > - David

: A number of Mac dealers have some overstock of the old Classic they're 
: trying to sell.  Apple no longer manufactures the Classic (and hasn't for 
: a number of months).  As I stated before, all current Macintosh computers
: have at least a 16 MHz '030.  By the way, does that A600 you're price-
: comparing have a hard disk (how big?) and a monitor?  (And how much RAM 
: does it have?)  I've seen 4 MB Classics with 40 MB hard disks advertised 
: for well under $800.

How much functionality do you get with that 4 meg?  Can you do with that 4 
meg what I can with 1/2?  Exactly how usable is system 7 when installed
on floppies?  Is it usable?  WB is...  Granted hard drives are wonderful
but the fact that you can run a better OS on an 880k floppy....  I'd be
ashamed...
 
: - Dale Adams

--
---------------------------------------------------------
My newsreader is screwed up... Therefore, it doesn't print the machine
name for email... Please send all email to zarthac@cs1.bradley.edu or
zarthac@camelot.bradley.edu
---

Millions of lemmings can't be wrong -- throw yourself off a cliff
Remember to always be a visionary, or someone will do it for you and beat you.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: 3DO news
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:33:21 GMT

>If this is the rumoured Nintendo and Sega thrasher called the 3DO then it uses
>the ARM2 RISC architecture, was started by a special effects guy called
>Hawkins, has 24 bit graphics, uses CD storage media, has the backing of
>Matsushita, will be launched first in the states with 15 games (most
>conversions) and has the backing of Stephen Spielberg who isn't supposed to be
>too thrilled with present consoles.
>If this is purely a console then amiga advocators needant worry .....unless one
>is to believe an amiga can only be used for games??

Here is why Amiga users should worry.  The market is shifting right now
to CD based games, information systems, and applications.  The benefit
for gaming is obvious, for information delivery, (i.e. encyclopedias,
etc.) the CD is indispensible.  For applications, it is going to become
part of the "edge" that a good application has.  Corel, for instance,
ships with hundreds of fonts and megabytes of clip art...if you have a
CD player.  Wing Commander has just about pushed the limits of
acceptable hard disk usage for a game.  

Commodore has been slow to incorporate CDs into these so called
"multimedia" machines.  This make Amiga's wonderful for multimedia
production, but poor for multimedia application availability (end user
applications, not multimedia construction applications).

The one exception is CDTV.  But in an ocean of larger companies trying
to set the "CD" standard, like Phillips, IBM, Radio Shack, AT&T,
Matsubishi, not to mention Nintendo and Sega, CDTV is going to have to
fight tooth and nails to get applications ported.  Already Compton's is
demonstrating a multimedia delivery mechanism that works with Mac, IBM
and CD-I...but not CDTV.  Microsoft is quickly moving to dominate the
multimedia field (and they've shipped some fantastic titles, and the
better ones sound as if they are yet to come!).  We know how they
historically view the Amiga.

In other words...if CDTV dies, then the Amiga will fall behind in
applications, even farther then where they are now.  When C= wakes up
and realizes the CD-ROM revolution has occured, it could be too late.

That's why a new competitor that boasts most of the features of CD-TV,
only is more powerful, with Mpeg, industry support, and very, very nice
hardware is something for Amigans to worry about.n

Remeber the bad old days when few Amiga games were hard drive
installable, so IBM's took the lead in big adventure type games?  It's
about to happen all over again.  Except this time the games will be
680MB instead of 40, and they will be multimedia...uncomfortably close
to the Amiga's home territory!
!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:46:54 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Jarkko Lindblad (lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI) wrote:
:
: > benchmarks to be as fast as an 040 in integer performance, a bit faster
: > even.  A DX2 blows it away.
:
: In your dreams. And in some benchmarks too. Do you really want to know
: why _benchmarks_ are not a usefull source of information?
: 	I can show you benchmarks which will clearly state that 6502
: is faster than any 486-clone. Of course I'll choose the compilers to
: compile the benchmarks - one will be a custom made C-compiler with
: 'JarkkoStone'-optimizer, the other may be any 486-C-compiler.
:

Shouldn't that be "JharkkoStone"? :-)

Look, you've got every right not to believe benchmark results.  I've got no
problem with that.  But, you also said, "In your dreams," which implies that
you believe that a 486DX2 could not beat an 040.  Well, how about some proof?
And remember, no benchmarks!

BTW, I'd love to see that 6502 vs. 486 benchmark!  Please, enlighten us!

:
: Jarkko Lindblad         | sleep my friend and you will see
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Lotus Development Ireland
	<1993Jan10.112010.11073@athena.mit.edu> <C0nIsp.H9K@news.iastate.edu>
	<1993Jan10.233135.17625@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 02:08:32 GMT

	people like Bill Gates have spoken about in the future users being able to
	put together their own applications, except that for an interapplication macro
	language, he wanted to use BASIC!  :-)

Hey, don't laugh.  Visual Basic isn't half bad, if you ignore your
prejudices against basic for a moment (and I have plenty of my own,
believe me) and look at what you can actually DO with it.  Also, look
at how easily apps are debugged with it and you start sobering up a
little and begin looking sort of sideways at your current C (or worse,
C++) development system and thinking back on how just how much fun
your last round of debugging was.

Besides, for users, I'd much rather have a fairly easy language for
doing interop stuff than trying to tell 1,000,000 Windows users something
like "This is REXX - it's your friend!  You really want to learn REXX!"

					Jordan

--
Jordan Hubbard		Lotus Development Ireland	jkh@whisker.lotus.ie
I DO NOT SPEAK FOR LOTUS - IT HAS PLENTY OF LAWYERS TO DO THAT FOR IT ALREADY
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:03:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: sol.1993Jan12.160359.11820
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Skip Sauls (skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
:
: The pot is calling the kettle black again...
:

[In my best Schwartzenegger voice]  Look who's talking...

:
: Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re:  Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 14:06:51 GMT

In article <C0JK7C.8zt@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>In article <bruce.0drx@zuhause.MN.ORG> bruce@zuhause.MN.ORG (Bruce Albrecht) writes:
>>In article <1ia9asINNb7c@uwm.edu> bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>>>In article <C0BJCq.MK9@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>>>CrossDOS is very poorly implemented in 2.1 and 3.0, with a disk in a drive
>>>>having totally different device names depending on whether that disk is in
>>>>AmigaDOS or IBM format.  Also, with CrossDOS enabled, there are almays two
>>>>'disk' icons on the screen for every disk in every drive.  Very, very messy.  
>>>
>>>CrossDOS needs to be more smoothly integrated into the system, agreed.
>>
>>Yes, I'd much rather have the system interface pop up a window saying "the
>>disk is unreadable, do I want to format it?" every time I pop in an IBM disk,
>>unless I have Apple File Exchange running (in which case I can't use it as
>>a regular Apple disk until I quit AFE).
>
>A freeware equivelent of CrossDOS is available for the Macintosh.  It allows
>Mac 720K and 1.44M disks to be accessed as easily as Mac disks, and has none 
>of the problems of CrossDOS and MessyDOS.  And is available on 
>archive.umich.edu.  (It's called 'dos-cdev')

Marc, has it ever occured to you that most of the "problems" you mention
are not considered to be so by others who post here?  I use CrossDOS daily
and have never had a single problem with it, yet you continue to whine about
it.  The problem is not the Amiga, CrossDOS, Commodore, or the lack of a
Euro-Mag distributor in your area, the problem is you.

You know, for someone who calls himself a conservative republican, you
bitch and moan like an obnoxious whiny-but liberal.

>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
>is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:59:26 GMT

Jerry Shekhel (jerry@msi.com) wrote:

> benchmarks to be as fast as an 040 in integer performance, a bit faster
> even.  A DX2 blows it away.

In your dreams. And in some benchmarks too. Do you really want to know
why _benchmarks_ are not a usefull source of information?
	I can show you benchmarks which will clearly state that 6502
is faster than any 486-clone. Of course I'll choose the compilers to
compile the benchmarks - one will be a custom made C-compiler with
'JarkkoStone'-optimizer, the other may be any 486-C-compiler.

-- 
Jarkko Lindblad         | sleep my friend and you will see
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi | that dream is my reality
------------------------| they keep me locked up in this cage
          - MetallicA - | can't they see it's why my brain say rage
From: jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov (Jack Radigan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 6 Jan 93 04:42:23 GMT
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Pomona, NJ
NNTP-Posting-Host: faatcrl.faa.gov

bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:

>How thick of you.  You act as if we haven't.  I'd advise you to use
>the systems that have VM a little more.  Remove everything except the
>minimum configuration of ram, and you'll see just what VM can do when
>you load it with activity.  Even if you only get light to moderate use
>of your VM, ANY swap can cripple performance.

  I think you just hit that nail dead-solid, perfect.

  Anyone who's had the pleasure of using OS/2 on a machine with 4Meg of
ram (and again with 8Meg or more) knows full well how much of a performance
penalty VM is.

  -jack-
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy