HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:02:26 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>R.m.s readers do not want their name changed. 
>They had their chance to stop it. They didn't. They lose.

You forgot the "Nyahh!". 

>>Not entirely correct. The point has been made that the CFV was not entirely
>>clear. 
>Horse pucky.

Just because you don't think so doesn't make it so. And you are hardly
in a position to defend it's clarity as you are too familiar with the
newsgroup creation process.

>>>and you (David) have been jumping from argument to
>>>argument in a desperate attempt to make your point come trough. 
>>Damn straight. 
>The admission of someone who keeps getting shot out of the saddle, but keeps
>getting back up and trying again. I bet your doctor is getting tired of
>patching all those bullet holes.

Actually I've reprogrammed your positronic brain to believe that I keep
getting shot out of the saddle. This wouldn't work for a human, as there's
too much flexibility involved and they aren't mechanical. 

>OK...if this one is accepted as being in accordance with the Guidelines, then
>I'll campaign against it.

Out of spite, eh?

>>>   b) Shut up and accept the vote 
>>Never. My site will not rmgroup r.m.s.
>Well, then, you will be responsible for causing that which you so loudly
>decry: the splintering of the group.

Not on your life. I didn't start this mess, but I'm damn sure going to
finish it. 

>[about the maintainer of SYNTH-L, who refuses to fix his gateway]
>>Not true. He didn't do anything to break it. 
>Sure he did: he's refusing to maintain it to keep up with changes in the
>network it's gatewaying from.

He's tired of seeing control freaks make more work for him.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Enjoyment is not a goal,
      it is a feeling that accompanies important ongoing activity
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 12 Nov 1992 08:22:18 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov12.064717.5427@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>Constructiveness is my middle name.  But trying to invalidate the
>>r.m.s vote is _not_ constructive.  I wish you (and Dave) would stop.
>And we wish you and Jay would consider it.

I'll consider revoting rec.music.makers.synth right after we revote
sci.aquaria, misc.activism.progressive, and rec.arts.manga.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:53:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.011343.5810@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>>Dave Hayes voted.  Dave Hayes knew about the vote.  Dave Hayes did not
>>foresee that the subject line was misleading the readers of r.m.s,
>
>That does not mean that there was not a problem with the subject line.

Dave Hayes did not think there was a problem with the subject line UNTIL
the vote went against what he wanted. If Dave Hayes, self-announced Lone
Ranger for rec.music.synth, had thought there was a problem prior to the
results being posted, he would have kissed Dulcinea and headed for the
windmill before the vote was over. He didn't. Ergo, there wasn't a
problem.

Or are we to believe that Dave Hayes would remain silent while there was
a problem?

>The problem was actually non-existant until the vote passed 

Yes, Dave, we understand. But did the subject line change when the vote
passed? I don't think so. The same subject line before the vote passed
is ok, after it passed it isn't. The only thing that changed was that
the vote passed -- an you don't want to accept that.

>and people
>started dropping away from the group...thus reducing its impact and
>effectiveness. 

Those who cut off their noses to spite their faces will do so for
whatever reason they want. 

>I didn't expect that. As I said, it did not appear intentional on his part.
>I figured it out when the vote for r.m.s passed. 

Any excuse in a storm? "Lessee, I don't like the result, so what can I
find wrong with the process?"

>Do not take life too seriously; you will never get out if it alive.

s/life/USENET/

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:08:31 GMT

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>Just out of curiousity -- who wrote that post?  Was it, as I suspect,
>*you*?  (I'd be less likely to suspect that if you'd mentioned who wrote
>it when you reposted it.)  

Then go ahead and suspect. I will protect the identity of that person,
as I am taking heat here and that person (with their poignant views)
doesn't deserve any. 

>should be taken as sufficient reason to conduct a revote.  I haven't seen
>any evidence that anyone in a position of power is taking your demands for
>a revote seriously, and like it or not, the people in power are the people
>you have to convince.  That's why we have the voting procedure in the
>first place.

So here's some hard evidence (careful reader) that the news administratin
IS elitist. QED. 

>retroactively.  In fact, after this flamewar, you'll be lucky if anyone
>who's politically active on the net takes anything you say seriously for a
>very long time. 

If the definition of "taking me seriously" is to kiss ass and agree with
the "wisdom" being espoused...then I'll gladly take up the stance of
the biggest clown on the net. (If you only knew)

>Acknowledging the reality of the situation would be a
>good step in the direction of getting your suggestions listened to again. 

You mean "giving my spirit" is the only way people will listen to me.
I don't want or need anything that bad.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

     He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:07:39 GMT

Dave> == Dave Hayes <dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> 

 Dave> So, if there's a bottle of botulism and I fail to catch it before it
 Dave> lands in the reservior...there wasn't a problem in the first place?

Dave: "Oh, it's just a little botulism, the bottle won't break anyway."
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:36:22 GMT

A point no one has raised about this whole *tedious* Synth debate...

Why doesn't Dave just propose a name change back to the old name, and go
through proper UseNet protocol for discussion etc., and then have a CFV?

He can make sure everyone in the Synth group knows the new vote is coming
up and then they can make their decision.

That would seem to me to be the mature thing to do.

Xref: sparky news.groups:20995 news.admin.policy:258 rec.music.synth:18183
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 14:36:37 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <BxG2xx.AAy@ccu.umanitoba.ca> snewman@ccu.umanitoba.ca (S. Newman) writes:
>No problem:
>
> "CFV: 2nd WARNING, We are going to change YOUR newsgroup."
>
>Get the idea?  You don't have to pack it with detail but you DO
>have to get people's attention.

   That's not good enough.

   Current network software technology can and should be used to develop
a program which can be sent into the ether to track down every .newsrc
file (or equivalent in the BBS, FIDOnet, LISTSERV, or what-have-you
realms), compile rigorous lists of exactly how much one reads from and
posts to each group, and send a Personal Opinion Interrogative to each
person deemed active enough to participate.  Each response would be
filtered through a statistically sophisticated algorithm which would
give it a weight appropriate to the total involvement of the respondee.
This would arrive at a result which would without fail totally represent
the desires of the One True Readership of USENET.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored 
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:39:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.173854.10407@bradley.bradley.edu>  
pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
> In <1992Nov9.084510.10599@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov  
(Dave Hayes) writes:
> >cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It) writes:
> >>	Yes. It is absolutely good practice. If you can't bother to
> >>look at CFVs and CFDs posted in a group that you read, tough. It's
> >>your fault.
> >I don't buy that for a second. If you'd have looked at the subject  
line,
> >being a random r.m.s reader, you'd have thought the subject a crosspost
> >of no relavence (and it's not like that doesn't happen all the time). 
> 
> J. Random Cop would say "ignorance of the law is no excuse".  By the
> same token, "ignorance of the guidelines is no excuse".  Deal with it
> already.
> 
Ah but the public also has the ability to examine and change laws. Not  
that they don't receive the same amount of stonewalling from the  
establishment when they try to do so.

> >Again, for the public record, just how sensitive are you to the
> >ignorant r.m.s reader who had no idea that he or she could change the 
> >plans of people who do not use the group to change its name and rob him 
> >or her of access? Could you say "tough it's their fault" again?
> 
> Listen.  I'll repeat it only once more:
> 
> THE NAME CHANGE DOES NOT ROB ANYONE OF ACCESS.  STUBBORN IDIOTS
> WHO CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE NAME CHANGE ARE
> ROBBING PEOPLE OF ACCESS IF *ANYONE* IS.
> 

Pete - get a grip! Calling your opponents "stubborn idiots" doesn't  
exactly help your cause.

> Does it sink in yet?

Has anything sunk into you? How open are YOU being?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 23:26:36 GMT

In <1992Nov5.212416.475@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>>You're using your personal feelings on the issue to take exception 
>>with the "legal" results.  That's just dead wrong.
>You might ASK before you make that assumption. My reason for starting this
>ruckus started because I was made aware of readers/posters who were 
>dissatisfied with the vote. Couple that with the awareness of the BBS
>network (from where people cannot email) that the group is echoed to,
>and is in danger of not being echoed to anymore, and you have my real
>reason for taking exception. 
>Feelings are irrelavent. 

Sounds like you are paying more attention to the dissatisfied feelings 
of those people who've complained to you than to the satisfied feelings
of all those who bothered to vote.  Perhaps it is wrong to assume
the feelings you are trying to represent are your own, but the point
is personal feelings are at the root of your objections; whether they
are specifically YOUR feelings is not relevant, but they don't seem to
have much of a logical base.

>I point out also that they are not "legal" results but "Guidelines" to
>follow if you so choose. I choose not to, and encourage others to do
>the same. 

A windmill by any other name....
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
  It should never be forgotten that during all the time we were studying bats,
                   bats had a unique opportunity to study us.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:01:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.220312.3952@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <BxGoxM.8M@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
>Stanley) writes:
>> "CFV". Three letters. 
>> 
>That only works IF you know what "CFV" stands for (show me where the  
>acronym is defined) 

At the beginning of every posting that contains it.

>Please spare me the "it was in the affected group" argument. 

Why? You don't have an answer for it? Clutters up your reasoning?

>Have you been following this thread?

Yes, and I already told you that. Can't you read?

>> If the first time USENET reader sees the acronym CFV and decides without
>> investigation that it is something that he is not interested in, that is
>> his decision.
>> 
>So every time a reader sees any acronym in a message he should read the  
>message? Do you actually do this?

Yes, I do for most things. But, if I had chosen to skip an acronym and
it turned out to be important, I certainly have NOBODY to blame but
myself. Unlike those who want to blame the net for people ignoring CFV.

>You don't think this can be handled in any better way?

Maybe. Until a better way is presented, I don't know. So far, nothing
suggested has been better than the simple acronym CFV coupled with a
posting in the affected group.
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 11 Nov 92 23:25:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BxKrps.3AA.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


Ok...concerning the rec.games.netrek reorganization, I find there is  
neither the need nor the desire for such a reorganization to take place.   
The matter should rightfully be discussed, but I think you will find that  
most readers of rec.games.netrek would disagree with such a  
reorganization.  No one who has posted here have agreed that this is  
needed nor desired, while there are many people who has posted general  
disagreement with the proposal.  

I would assume that relatively few people want the reorganization at the  
current time.  Even fewer people would vote for the reorganization in its  
current state.

My recommendation is for alan to scrap the idea and to discuss possible  
future reorganizations on rec.games.netrek to see what the readers want  
out of rec.games.netrek, instead of assuming that his idea is the  
mainstream.

Thank you for your time,

Rob
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: My experience
Summary: Pop quiz!!!!
Date: 10 Nov 92 08:18:00 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu


Here's a simple test for cbnorman to show his qualifications:

1) How many groups are in the rec.games.frp heirarchy?

2) Which are moderated?  Who are the moderators?

3) Which articles should a new user read, and where are they?
   (hint: not in r.g.f.*)


Now that you have answered the above:

1a) How long did it take for those groups to evolve?

2a) Which moderator has not spoken up in this discussion?
2b) Which moderators have sided with you?
2c) Do you know how much respect people have for moderators here?

3a) Which of the new user articles have you read?
-- 
This is National Non-Dairy Creamer Week.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:23:13 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
> % of the vote that comes from participants:    11

Tsk, Dave, such sloppy reasoning.  Please provide this number:

  % of the vote that comes from readers:  ??

-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
From: garzepel@mcs.drexel.edu (Anthony Rzepela)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: sri - AHMADIYYA fight
Date: 8 Nov 92 01:36:59 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: Drexel University, Dept. of Math. and Comp. Sci.

I recall a post a while back about the name given to the news group 
related to quaker issues, and the fact that people did not mind
their group being called "quaker" (this sect prefers "friends ")
since it facilitated new net persons finding the 
group easily.  I only bring up this example to point out that what someone
calls your organization doesn't affect the content. Also, in these days 
of "grep" there would be no more difficulty in a newbie finding 
one of the argued ahmadi configurations than the other, as opposed to 
"friends" which might not even give someone looking for a 
"quaker" group for educational purposes (remember those?) a second's 
pause.  

I only bring this up to point out that the creation of newsgroups, etc, 
are for the mutual benefit of the specific organization/religion's adherents, 
and the net community as a whole. (That's why there are discussions, votes, 
etc.) Since participants in this argument 
have seen fit to consume massive quantitties of bandwidth, I respectfully
remind everyone that the creation of a group should not be at the expense
of the coherence/peace/whatever of the net as a whole.  At this point, 
anyone exposed to the level of noise and flames would vote YES just to 
stop the traffic.  

In summary: 
* remember that the net community as a whole may wish to use the
article flow in your groups for social/educational purposes. 

* this at-large community may never happen upon ahmadis 
as a sect/spin-off/revolutionary break from Islam without 
guidance from hierarchies.  Relegating the group to an 
entirely different hierarchy (like alt.)  or to their own
group at the same hierarchical level as islam is unfair to those 
wishing more information about Islam or about Ahmadi. 
 
-------------------------------
Tony

P.S. I think that anyone that b*tches about the proliferation 
of bad posts/flames/multilayered references on this topic
without also slightly chiding the music. reorganization 
thread on news.groups is bordering on picking on the Muslims. 

P.P.S - Unix s*cks. VI s*cks.    Misspellings, etc. all apologized
for in advance. 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:19:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.233135.9378@philmtl.philips.ca>  
ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
> 
> And yet the majority of posters continue to respond to him with  
rational,
> reasonable arguments while he continues to respond with intransigence,
> narrow vision, selfish reasoning, claims of hidden support, and now  
veiled
> threats.
> 
In all honesty, it's easy to say this about the people you agree with. I  
happen to NOT agree with that group and would see it the other way around.

> I think a few congratulations are in order.

I agree - but not to the same people.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992
Date: 09 Nov 92  22:18:15

On <Nov 08 20:05>,  cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca wrote to All:

 >Rec.games.frp.campaign is all about the campaign, and 
 >campaigning, two of the
 >most important aspects of Fantasy Role Playing.  Despite the fact 

That is not a problem.  The main problem is that you have been
discussing either PLAYING games over the net, or providing readers with
campaign reports, serialized one chapter at a time.  Neither of which
appears to be require the creation of a new newsgroup.  To have a place
separate from one of the extant rec.games.frp.* groups but in the same
heirarchy for the DISCUSSION of campaigns as opposed to running them or
reporting on specific ones, might be another story.  But that is not what
you have, thus far, proposed.  If that's what you meant, you would be best
off creating a new RFD first because that's not what you've proposed.  If
the impression most of us have of what you meant is correct, go ahead and
post your CFD because I doubt there's much more to be said on the subject.
Let's just see what the net as a whole thinks of the proposal. 

--- msged 2.06
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mjackson.wbst147@xerox.com (Mark Jackson)
Subject: Re: "Power corrupts" (Was: soc.net-people
Followup-To: mjackson.wbst147@xerox.com
Reply-To: mjackson.wbst147@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:32:24 GMT

In article 2786@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com, lms@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Max
Stern 310-524-6152) writes:

> In article <1d4jhsINNrmc@network.ucsd.edu> spl@alex.ucsd.edu (Steve
> Lamont) writes:
> 
> >...  Power corrupts.
> >Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  (Forget who said that...
> >Jefferson?  or was it earlier than that?)> ...
> >
> 
> It was Lord Acton who said that.

Not quite.  See my .sig which, I swear, I have not changed for the occasion.

---
Mark <MJackson.Wbst147@Xerox.COM>

  Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
		- Lord Acton, who is almost always misquoted


Newsgroups: news.groups