HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: donal@brewich.uucp (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 14:18:48 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:

> In article <15523@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Dars
> > This past weekend I shared a truly transcendent experience with
> > about 25 other people. We attended a firewalking seminar.
> 
> Well Richard, the group support may have had a great deal to do with
> your plucking up the courage to step into the coals, but it had nothing
> to do with the lack of third degree burns to your feet. That was due to
> basic physics. The coals in a fire-walkers' pit can get up to 400 C,
> and if you were to heat up a steel plate to this temperature and try
> to walk across it you would soon find yourself in hospital. This is not
> the case for wood-coals, because they are much less efficent *conductors*
> of heat than steel. So long as you walk reasonably briskly, the coals 
> are not in contact with your feet long enough to burn you. If you were
> to *stand* in the coals, however, you would soon know about it!
> 
> I'm interested to know if the organisers of this session told you that
> it was some form of paranormal power which kept you from being burned,
> and if you were charged money for this session. The organisers of such
> firewalking workshops have had the perfectly mundane explantion of how
> this feat is achieved explained to them many times, but many of them
> continue to tell people that 'there is no scientific explanation for
> this' and assure them that it is some kind of mental power or mystical
> energy which protects the walkers' feet. Several have also been 
> challenged to try the stunt on a steel sheet heated to half the 
> temperature of the coals. Oddly, they have always declined. Positive 
> thinking sessions are great, but con-men who use cheap parlour tricks to 
> make money are not.
> Tim O'Neill 

Tim, I am amazed that you could post something like this!? Have you no 
sense of the profound effect that the walk had on the poster? Do you 
realize that at that moment, Ciaran could have done ANYTHING??? I forget 
who but someone once asked, "What would you do if you KNEW you could not 
fail?" The scientific explanation does nothing to invalidate Ciaran's 
experience. All the firewalk did was confirm the truth the walker already 
knew, that we are limited by nothing but the limits we pla{_ce on 
ourselves.
Ciaran, please do not let Tim's doubts or scientific explanation reduce 
the power of your vision. Do what you would dare, and know that you 
CANNOT fail.
 
Blessed Be

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!donal 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Thanks (Was Re: Firewalk)
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:36:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

Sorry for the bandwidth waste, but my mail to Donal bounced.
So, Donal, THANK YOU so much for your supportive words. It means a lot. 
I was dismayed at Tim O'Neil's rudeness. How dare he try to invalidate
my experience! And without ever having done it himself (so I presume).
I have to admit that after seeing what he wrote I began to
question my judgement in posting about it. Thanks for restoring
the balance...

Blessings,

Richard Darsie
(Tuneweaver)
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Definitions (was >suggestion<)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 19:51:42 GMT

  Oops, I committed an act of senseless editing in my previous post.

  I edited B.A. Davis-Howe's quote from;
>"I will call it Vaglanism"

  to;
>"I will call it [my religion] Vaglanism"

  That quite possibly transformed the meaning of the sentance
in a way I hadn't intended.

  I should have edited it;
>"I will call it [Ciaran's religion] Vaglanism"

  "My", of course, being a relative experience.

  Sorry for any confusion.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: imcc@cs.strath.ac.uk (Iain McCord)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:19:36 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dept., Strathclyde Univ., Scotland.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
: In article <2180@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt) writes:
: >Tim, and everyone:
: >
: >Knowing intellectually that I won't get burned as long as I keep walking, and
: >actually stepping into a pit of coals and walking for more than it takes to
: >step out of it are very different things.  
: 
: I'm sure they are; any physicist's plams will stil sweat if s/he were to
: go coal-walking.

  It'd depend on how the physicist was thinking.  If he was totaly convinced
that he could do it he'd probably not sweat, at least not due to fear.  Sweat
could be brought on due to the heat of the fire.  If I was going to fire walk
I'd like to spend months walking barefoot,  so I'd have a nice thick sole.
I'd want to spend at least an hour walking about in the grass, to get a nice 
layer of dirt and grass spread over the soles.  I'd also like to get into a
state of mind that would dampen my reaction to feeling that amount of heat
under my feet.  Seeing demonstrations of hypnosis where someone reacts
to ice as if they had been burned, and blistered, convinced me that instincive
responses to injury can be overriden.  I've also seen a demonstration of 
someone dipping their hand in water and then into a pan of heated chip oil.
Kept the hand in for a couple of seconds producing a nice cloud of steam, then
pulled it out dry and undamaged.
  I thought the original article dealt more with the acheivement of overcoming
a common foe , i.e. the fire, and the mutual elation of doing so.  The fact is
that the tool ( beleif ) used to do so worked.  From an engineering viewpoint
I'd say that it's a valid tool.
: Blessings,
: Janis
-- 

		~~~~~/\~~~~~
Iain McCord	~~~~/()\~~~~	Fri Jul 31 13:19:32 WET DST 1992
		~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 1992 16:37:02 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 4gHBoB6w164w@ailanth.UUCP, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) >bullshit.  all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people 
>to do nothing.  

True. As established in ethics 101 with help from the Nazi trials and Benji
Franklin.

> what are YOU doing?  how are you trying to rescind your white priivelege?

I am assumed guilty. Let's test my guilt by seeing if an axe will bounce
of my neck?
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Lammas
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:54:23 GMT


As usual, I led a Lughnasad celebration at Illinois Yearly Meeting of the
Religious Society of Friends (the Quakers).  The woman who usually Priestesses
with me was not present, so another woman who has been coming to the circle for
the last couple of years (who had never been Priestess before) Priestessed.

We had 5 grown-ups and about a dozen younger folk, mostly in the junior high
age range (around 12-14 for those who aren't familiar with the US school 
system).  We started getting the younger folk about three years ago now, and it
just gets bigger.  One of the grown-ups, who joined us only toward the end, is
a fiddler who plays Celtic music!

I set up a stang (a staff which "Y"s at the top) to represent the Horned God
and hung a wreath of flowers for the Lady on it.  I had a drinking horn hanging
on one of the tines of the stang, and a pentacle and wand on a cloth in front
of it.  I was wearing my athame, so all four elemental tools were present.  I
also had a baby cauldron, with cornmeal in it) on the altar cloth.

Their was a 16 year old whose mother is into the neo-Native thing, so I had him
drum with my handdrum.  We began with people centering with the drum, then Jane,
the Priestess, drew the circle with the cornmeal from the cauldron.  (Lots of
grain symbolism, since Lughnasad is the beginning of harvest.)  Then I led us
in connecting to the elements..."Feel the wind around you, feel your breathing,
feel the air."...and so on.  After that, we passed anointing oil around the 
circle, blessing each other. Then we welcomed the Lady as Earth Mother, and 
the Lord as Lord of the Grain.
That was the end of the structured beginning--we went freeform from there.  We
chanted, we danced, we sat around telling each other what we were thankful
for.  Then we chanted and danced some more.  Finally, we feasted.  I had made
a John Barleycorn figure out of shortbread--the head had a solar pattern, and
the body a wheat-ear pattern.  Jane carried around the John Barleycorn on its
cookiesheet, with a candle sitting next to it, so that people could see it.
Then she blessed it and people ate.  Then she blessed the drinking horn, which
held cranraspberry juice, and shared that around.  (I suggested she carry it
arount to reduce the number of spills.  While most of the youngsters were
junior high age, some were much younger.)  After the feasting we chanted each 
others names and then thanked the Lady and Lord.  Then we cleaned up.

Oh, BTW, this was held on the night that we found convenient.  It was 23 July, 
which is eight days early for those who use the Gregorian calendar and 
twenty days early by lunar reckoning.  I may well do something here in town
on the lunar date, which is my usual reckoning.  But it has become custom to
hold the celebration at Yearly Meeting, and Quakers are not likely to let little
things like accuracy get in the way of celebrating. :-)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Hello alt.pagan!!!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:10:22 GMT

brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:

> Hello Ailsa, Hello Janis, Hello everyone else I have exchanged e-mail 
> with! The lurking is over!!! We finally found the problem with my 
> newsgroup posting and I am so very glad to announce that the Brewer's 
> Witch BBS in Houston, Texas is glad to now join alt.pagan,already in 
> progress :)
 
Hon, I don't know if I ever settled this with you, BUT . . .

I have the vaguest memory of not being able to mail to you, i.e. the
mail I sent bounced constantly.  Did we ever clear that up?

Blessings,
Janis the Curious
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Chimpanzee Reference
Date: 21 Jul 92 11:23:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Jul21.112300.23490
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

Hi:

I posted some new, somewhat startling evidence of chimpanzee behavior a
few days ago and offered to post the references if anyone was
interested.  I've had a few requests, so here they are:

     Linden, Eugene, March 1992, "A Curious Kinship:  Apes and Humans,"
     _National Geographic_, volume 181, number 3, pp. 3-45.

     Linden, Eugene, March 1992, "Chimpanzees with a Difference:
     Bonobos," _National Geographic_, volume 181, number 3, pp. 46-53.

The Japanese researcher I noted in the original post is Takayoshi
Kano.  His study on bonobos, _The Last Ape:  Pygmy Chimpanzee Behavior
and Ecology_, is being published by Stanford University Press.

The National Geographic Explorer television show, "Secret World of the
Chimpanzee," was aired 15 March 1992 at 21:00 ET on cable channel TBS.

Regards,

Jeff H...
From: jbs@korova.uucp (jacques)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: pc (groan)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 00:07:01 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind

Wotta smokescreen! If the "progressive" view and the occasional stupidity 
from which it is not immune constitute "political correctness," does that 
mean working harder for less pay, kneeling to Jesus, cheering for war, 
and not questioning anything constitute "rebellion against pc?" (Come to 
think of it, Christians going for young recruits say "Be a real rebel; 
follow Jesus!"--submission is rebellion).

Come to think of it, one of the best known denouncers of PC is a chap 
named Dinesh D'Souza (of Indian extraction), one of those little 
Republican turds who edited the Dartmouth Review or one of a hundred 
privately funded conservative campus rags in the late 1980s. If he were 
more of a WASP, he'd probably be Gregg Marmalard from "Animal House." If 
a dozen or so PKA frat boys from Georgia pound him to paste for being a 
"raghead," shouldn't he and all denouncers against PC agree that those 
boys are actually heroes of the First Amendment or something like that?

I don't know about you folks, but I'm ready for a PC-backlash backlash!

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:48:07 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: 
:>: maybe you shou8ld check your attitude then, or actually try it.  i hAVE 
:>: done that, had no troubloe, definitely left alive.  difference: i LIVE in 
:>: the slums.  i may be white, but i am still one of the family, as it were.
:>: 
:>: i think all this fear of black men is just another face of racism.
:> 
:> Re-read what you wrote above. Now tell me that racism does not exist among
:> the people living in the slums. You are "one of the family", so you are not
:> discriminated against. Racism is not only based on skin color.
:> 
: bill, i do not live in THOSE slums.  i live in maine slums.  to go into 
: bars such as you talk about, i have to go to boston.  those people have 
: never seen me before in their lives!  my point was, having lived in the 
: slums, BEING a member of the grindingly poor ($327/mo ADC plus child 
: support), i knjow how to act.  too many guys go into an unfamiliar 
: situation aggressively, radiating attitude.  that doesn't go over too 
: well in places where people don't want to have to DEAL with people being 
: aggressively white, aggressively straight, aggressively male, etc.  when 
: you go into a place where you KNOW that you are a member of the oppressor 
: class, no matter which oppressor class it might  be, you be friendly, you 
: be unassuming, you smile a lot.  you admit that there might be SOME place 
: in the US that is NOT YOURS.  once people firgure out that you aren't 
: just another strayt boy or whatever, you are fine.

Believe it or not, I am friendly and I smile a lot. I also am not aggressive,
regardless of what assumptions you may make, based on my postings.

In many places, that does not matter. There are places my black friends would
not take me - for fear that I would be badly injured or killed. Now, I don't
know what to call this except racism.

: but i reapeat my contention that all black men do not go around beating 
: up and killing white men.  black men are in MUCH MORE DANGER from white 
: men than the reverse.  look at crime statistics some time.  ever 
: considered that black men walk together a lot for the same reason that 
: women walk together a lot?  so that people won't mess with them?

I agree - I am sure that very few do so. The same can be said for whites  
and chicanos etc. I am also aware of the fact that a white is far more
likely to get away with an assault than a black or chicano. Unfortunately,
there are more violent white racists in this country. These same assholes
are the ones who sometimes hunt down people like me, with long hair and a
beard, and beat them senseless - just because I am also different.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

In alt.pagan, cc647@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Cornick) writes:

> 
> Just a question... has anyone done an FAQ list for alt.pagan?
> 
> And now back to the regularly scheduled alt.paganism.

Merry Meet and Hi, Mark,

  There is no FAQ as such but I do post a listing of fairly basic books from
time to time.  These books have the basics for the "neo-pagan" mode found
around here.

  If you and others would like I will post the FAQ Book List again...

*Blessed Be*			Zanz



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:32:20 GMT

In article <krikket.5121@meltdown.chi.il.us>,
krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>
>Let's take a given, namely let's assume that science CAN allow men to carry fetuses in thei woumbs, for an inexpensive fee.  (Yeah, right.)
>
>Should men be required to carry 1/2 of the fetuses?
>

That would defeat the whole freedom of choice issue.  Can't men &
women decide for themselves?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:06:45 GMT

ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
: 
:   But to whomever it was that said that Paganism is not a religion, I think you're
: cutting the line too fine.  Paganism is a form of worship which is empowering many
: people today, and is being accepted in all of its diversity as a rational and sacred
: alternative to the majority religions of the day.  There are many organized religions

As I have posted before. There are many Pagans who are atheists or agnostics.
Since they have no religion, it is hard to say that Paganism is a religion.

: which also fall under the header "Pagan", but each one of them speaks for
: themselves, and is no more and no less right for its adherents than my nameless
: Paganism is for me.  Not everyone who is a Pagan is comfortable with the
: definitions or structures of the recognised Pagan faiths.  Still, we have a right to
: call ourselves "Pagan", and to have our form of worship respected.

Certainly - no one is denying that.

:   I'm pleased to see that the intensity in this thread is continuing, and that everyone
: is trying to respect each other's feelings and beliefs.  I don't think I've said anything
: intollerant, but if it seems I have, please ask for a clarification -- I may have just
: mispoke or mistyped.

No, I don't think you have shown any intolerance. I just think that you do not
fully understand what we are trying to say. This may be our fault, as much as
anything.

Bill
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: FAQ list?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:21:43 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
>
> >amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
> >> However.  I've volunteered my services before; if the sentiment
> >> changes I'd be willing to help create one [FAQ], but not alone.
>
> >I think we *should* have one.  It doesn't have to give definitive
> >answers to all the questions, but instead, it can give a range of
> >answers or just say that we can't decide.
>
> >Susan, would you like to work with me to put one together, and
> >run it past everyone for concensus?  (-:  Oh, great!  Edited
> >by Kaczmarczik and Radzykewycz.  :-)
>
> I would like to be part of this as well--I have been saving some things I thi
> might be useful in this process.  Make that Kaczmarczik, Radzykewycz, and
> Davis-Howe--well, it's still a long last name! :)

i'd be glad to help too.  and murphy is even easy to spell!

                                        -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
"If it has tires or testicles,             Silence \      / Action
 you're going to have trouble                 =     \    /    =
 with it."                                  Death    \  /    Life
     -Ohio state Senator Linda Furney                 \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 06:15:01 GMT

krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
: 
: I third the motion...  And think that there are enough wiccans present to justify the newsgroup.
: 
: (Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the Net, view alt.pagan to be composed of the "StarHawk Wiccan" crowd...  :)  )

Heh, Heh! Shows how it is easy to come to what is probably an incorrect
conclusion based on insufficient information.

I personally suspect that the "Starhawk Wiccan" type people are far and
few between here.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:43:28 GMT

In article <12397@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.193315.15180@linus.mitre.org> 
>heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>>I beg to differ.  What if there was a white man's congressional caucus,
>>as there are for women and blacks? 
>
>There is. It is called just Congress. And we all pay for them with taxes!
>
>>What if there was a National Association for the Advancement of White People?
>
>There is. It is called KKK. Or S&L, the biggest give away for White males ever!
>BTW: What was the biggest crime since WWII? And who benefited?
>
>>What if there was a Hetero Rights Organization?
>
>There is. It is called the mainstream as lead by Jesse Helms whose salary is
>paid by all taxpayers! Another name is Moral Majority!
>
>>All of these would be labeled harmful and reactionary out-of-hand, regardless
>>of what they actually did.
>
>You said it! You got any more great examples?

Let me clarify my position.  What if there was  a white man's
congressional caucus that had as it's avowed goals the same types of
goals that are held by the women and black caucuses?  What if there was
a National Association for the Advancement of White people that
espoused the same things for whites as the National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People does for blacks?  What if there was a
Hetero Rights Organization that espoused the same things for heteros as
Gay Rights Organizations do for gays?  Yes, the examples are extreme,
but the point I'm making is that if the Oppressors had organizations
with the intent of establishing/protecting rights along the same lines
as the existing organizations, it would be considered wrong.

The Congress, KKK, S&Ls, Jesse Helms, and the Moral Majority I reject
all out-of-hand.  They are not my way.

Regards,

Jeff H...