From: hbsperki@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (James Perkins)
Subject: Request for advice replied to
Summary: Request for advice replied to
Keywords: advice
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:45:33 GMT


A short while ago, I asked for advice on a problem, and quite a number of
people in this newsgroup were kind and considerate enough to reply and
offered quite a wide range of responses.  Included in this post is the
majority list.  Not all made it here because some reiterated on others.  I
have shielded the identity of people who replied to me to preserve their
anonymity.  Only one respondent gave me permission to divulge his name, and
I am not going to assume that the others would consider this OK (although I
haven't asked them).  Does that make sense?  Thanks to all who replied.

Unfortunately, I have not yet had a chance to put any of this advice to the
test.  She is just about as busy as anybody could be; so am I!  So our paths
only cross rarely.  I try calling her on a regular basis, but I don't make
contact very often...we'll see how it goes anyway.  Thanks again.

I received a couple of requests that I post this advice so that others in a
similar situation can use it too.  Therefore, this posting.  I hope people
can find it useful.

Love to you all.         

J.



Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:20:55 -0700

As requested, I'm responding my email rather than by posting a followup
article. I am giving you full permission to quote (with attribution)
any part, or all of my post to anyone else, or to post it on the net.
This is if you think my opinions are worth posting, of course. :)

Since you requested email replies, there are likely to be some responses
to your original post that won't appear on the net (like this one.) I
hope you could find the time to compile them and post them on the net;
I'd be interested to see all the various pieces of advice that you got
to your post.

Anything I write below is what I would do. It may or may not work for you;
you'll have to decide.
 
In alt.romance you write:

>I am currently in the beginning stages of a relationship with a friend of
>mine, and it seems to be going OK at this point.
>
>[deleted]
>
>What I suppose I am
>asking is: how do I know when it is appropriate to give a hug or a kiss or
>other expressions of affection?  I haven't even established at this point
>whether she is looking for a platonic or romantic relationship.

You should try and find this out as soon as possible; it's hard to know
what to do if this info. is not known. In other words, you have to find
out how she feels about you, and you have to let her know how you feel
about her. (If you are not very sure yourself how exactly you feel about
her, you have to work this out first. :) )

This is probably the hardest part: tell her, simply and directly, how
you feel toward her. This may make her uncomfortable (or even offended,
though this is very unlikely. Uncomfortable or embarrassed is more likely.)
If this happens, try to put her at ease; say something like this, which
I've said to a special friend myself, in a similar situation.

"I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable; I didn't tell you that to make
you feel uncomfortable. This is how I feel toward you. My feelings for
you would be the same even if I didn't tell you about them. I told you
how I feel because I wanted you to know. I wish we could be more than
just friends."

If she is still uncomfortable (or, quite possibly, confused about how
she should respond), back off, leave her alone, give her time to think
it over. Come back later, and ask her to tell you how she feels. Whatever
the answer may be, it is better than not knowing. Not knowing is the worst;
you lie awake in bed, torturing yourself by worrying over it. 

When it's out in the open how you feel about each other, anything else
is easy by comparison! I think that this first and hardest step is what
you have to do before anything else. (But please remember that this is
only my opinion, and what I would do myself.) Best wishes.

			*      *      *

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:19:04 -0400

OK, here's my two sense worth!

Even though you said you're physically inhibited, *try* to make a
subtle gesture.  Lightly brushing up against her might be a good
idea, even if you apologize for it.  That way, it will seem like
the brushing was an accident and you can check for any facial
or body signs that say whether it was ok or not.  Always look at a
woman's face when you want to see what she's thinking.  For most
of us, it's a dead giveaway!!

Good luck and I wish you the best!!!

			*      *      *

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:23:06 -0400

In article <hbsperki.712210591@kraken> you write:
>I am currently in the beginning stages of a relationship with a friend of
>mine, and it seems to be going OK at this point.  She has come over to my
>place for dinner, and we have gone out for coffee and a long chat.  It's
>been fun.

Great to hear!  But onward to the crux of the matter..

>
>However, I have a question: I am unsure on how to proceed.  For too long I
>have been unsure of myself with regards initiating physical intimacy.  I
>know that this relates to my upbringing (and I could enter into a big debate
>here, but I won't), but it is still difficult for me.  What I suppose I am
>asking is: how do I know when it is appropriate to give a hug or a kiss or
>other expressions of affection?  I haven't even established at this point
>whether she is looking for a platonic or romantic relationship.

Fair enough.  Consider the fact that she may not know, either.

>Despite my age (all I will say is that I am under 25) I am very unsure about
>these sorts of things.  I want to express my affection non-verbally but I am
>extremely inhibited physically.  I haven't even held hands with her yet.  I
>have no real problems once a relationship gets going...inhibition and
>insecurity is not an issue there.  It is just in this initial stage, when we
>are still establishing our "norms" or what it is acceptable and not
>acceptable to do, that I have problems.
>
>Any ideas?  Replies from both males who have been in a similar situation
>(I'm sure you all have...everybody has to decide on their mutual behaviours
>at some point, although I suspect it's probably not as conscious as I am
>trying to make it) and from females who can provide advice on what they do
>on such occasions are most welcome.

Despite my age (all I will say is that I am under 40),  I just want to assure
you that even with my, ah, advanced years *I* am still unsure about reading
signals.

Short version: Go slow, and read the signs *carefully*.  I.E. you might
want to place your hand on  her back while you walk.  If she shrinks away,
she probably wants a platonic  relationship.  Try touching her hand, if
she shrinks  away, odds are she  wants a platonic relationship.

Long version: I am separated, and have recently rejoined the dating world
after fifteen years.  I got back  together with an old flame of mine,
and I took things *very* slowly.  I was the perfect gentleman *physically*,
but I'm afriad I'm an incorrgible flirt.  Well,  we wound up on her patio,
sipping drinks, watching the full moon, listening to  the crickets (In
retrospect, neither of us really had a chance, did we?).  I looked at her
in the dark and said, "I would really like to hold you."  And honest to god,
that's all I really was going to do.  Well, we go back inside her apartment,
and we sit down on the couch, and I wrap my arms around her, and she planted
a kiss on me that made my toes curl.

The rest, as  they say, is something that no gentleman would divulge.

Your mileage may vary.  If there is 'spark' there, you'll know, but ya gotta
FLIRT.  It's the equivalent of having your hook in the water.  You should
know how to flirt: compliment her, tell her she looks sexy (*gently*), be
romantic (if you're stuck, flowers are always romantic, but you score extra
points for imagination if you can think of something that's *you*.)

Enough.  I hope things work out.  Above all, be yourself and HAVE FUN!

			*       *       *

hbsperki@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (James Perkins) writes:

>I am currently in the beginning stages of a relationship with a friend of
>mine, and it seems to be going OK at this point.  She has come over to my
>place for dinner, and we have gone out for coffee and a long chat.  It's
>been fun.

>However, I have a question: I am unsure on how to proceed.  For too long I
>have been unsure of myself with regards initiating physical intimacy.  I
>know that this relates to my upbringing (and I could enter into a big debate
>here, but I won't), but it is still difficult for me.  What I suppose I am
>asking is: how do I know when it is appropriate to give a hug or a kiss or

Ask her.

>other expressions of affection?  I haven't even established at this point
>whether she is looking for a platonic or romantic relationship.

Ask her.

>Despite my age (all I will say is that I am under 25) I am very unsure about
>these sorts of things.  I want to express my affection non-verbally but I am
>extremely inhibited physically.  I haven't even held hands with her yet.  I
>have no real problems once a relationship gets going...inhibition and
>insecurity is not an issue there.  It is just in this initial stage, when we
>are still establishing our "norms" or what it is acceptable and not
>acceptable to do, that I have problems.

>Any ideas?  Replies from both males who have been in a similar situation
>(I'm sure you all have...everybody has to decide on their mutual behaviours
>at some point, although I suspect it's probably not as conscious as I am
>trying to make it) and from females who can provide advice on what they do
>on such occasions are most welcome.

>Could you please send any replies to me direct via e-mail as I don't always
>have access to the net...e-mail will ensure that I receive them.

>Thankyou.

Crikey, why don't people talk?  It makes life a lot easier.  I have found
that if you are confused about a point in a relationship, ie: what is ok
physically and what isn't, TALK ABOUT IT!!!!  It's really not that hard
once you get started.

I used to be all closed mouthed too, but recently I have found that when
you open up about your desires and ask questions, things are so much easier.
It may not be comfortable for you to ask if it's all right to kiss her, but
think of how uncomfortable it would be for you to find out by first kissing
her and then having her go "Eeeew, get away".

			*       *       *

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:53:17 -0500

Well--physical stuff hmmmmm

It's really difficult when you first start seeing someone.

I think you should try and read the nonverbal clues she's giving
you.  Does she stare into your eyes?  Does she try and brush up
against you? If so sit closer and closer, stare right back into
her eyes.  But the worst thing you can do is 

1) Ask for a kiss (please if you have to ask it's obvious she's
not interested)

2) Pressure her by alluding to a relationship that you would like
to have (i.e. that all of the romantic stuff,flowers and compliments,
and paying for dates are all for sex) not nice at all and will make
her run away

Just take it easy and wait till an opportunity happens i.e. a dark
room or evening walk and you're both in a mellow mood.

Good luck (tell me what happens)

			*       *       *

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 07:39:51 -0400

Jim,
No sweat.  I have to add that the lady I told  you about was
physically aloof prior to my "I want to hold you" statement.  But she
*was* flirting back.  This is not *always* a sign that she's sexually
interested in you.

The advice to "just ask her" that I've seen on the net is probably
true for the San Francisco and (to a lesser extent) LA areas as a
rule.  Depends on the lady and the "kultcha" (as they say in Northern
NJ, or "culture" as they say in the Gracious South).  Your Milage May
Vary.

One more bit of advice: be prepared for her to be "just  friends".
Can you handle "just friends"?  Set  your expectations a little low.

Gods, I hope this is making sense!  It's  7:30 am here and I'm a
little groggy.

GOOD LUCK!

			*       *      *

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:43:17 PDT

I posted this to alt.romance, but since you requested email, I 
am also sending it direct.

As one who has been there...

If you are uncomfortable with touching now, you probably always will be
that way to a certain degree. But if you see it as a problem, you can
teach yourself to be more comfortable with it. It really doesn't have
anything to do with your age.

There are other ways than touching to express you desire for romance.
Think of all the cliches like candle-lit dinners, moonlight walks,
flowers...you can probably think of something appropriate. Actually,
touching can be pretty ambiguous (sex? love? comfort?), so there may be
some advantages to these other approaches.

The important thing is that you don't need to let this get in the way
of a sucessful relationship...if you express how you feel in other
ways, and are open and honest about your attitudes toward touching,
it shouldn't get in your way.

I know you want to get off on the right foot with your relationship,
but you are not going to change overnight. You are going to have to
accept how you are, and eventually you will have to share this with
your friend if you are going to be intimate. At this point, you
probably don't know how she feels about touching, and you may not be as
far apart as you think. 

If other things are going well, you and your friend will probably enjoy
getting you more comfortable with touching...what are friends for ;-)

Michael.

			*       *       *

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 10:47:04 -0500

No-naivete (sp?) is a very nice thing to see in a guy or anybody for that
matter. It's important that (at least to me) that you're willing to take
a risk.  I know I don't want a guy that's so experienced I can't tell if
it's a line or reality.  A guy that's smooth is a definite turn off.  
Then again don't look at the past---it's usually not a good place to
look for inspiration and positive reinforcements.  Let the sparks happen-
Don't cringe but, if it's meant to be it will happen and if it doesnt'
happen it wasn't meant to be (what mothers and friends will tell you
in situations).

			*       *       *

Date: 	Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:35:41 -0400

Before I give "advice" I will say that I am 35 and still unsure.  In
my limited past experience, holding hands is a good first step.  Go to
a cafe with small tables, sit across from each other and at the right
moment take her hands smoothly in yours and tell her that she is a
special friend.

Make sure that you look at her in the eyes and follow closely her
reactions. She (like every human) will appreciate the attention.  Then
take it from there.

Don't let her hands go for a few minutes and see what happens.  Even
if she withdraws, it may mean that she is insecure about physical
intimacy, too. So you need to monitor her very closely to tell whether
she really wants no intimacy with you.

Assuming the above goes well, you may end up holding hands for the
whole evening, and hug warmly when you separate.  By then you would be
in a position to tell whether a further advance like a kiss (always at
the right moment) in the next one or two dates will be welcome. Make
sure that once you move on to the next step of physical intimacy, you
do not fall back on your own accord (i.e. hold hands next time, too).

To bring the right moment about in a natural way, you can steer the
discussion towards more personal stuff, as opposed to the usual "safe"
stuff, like the weather, world politics or computers.

			*       *       *

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 14:50:14 PDT

I had the same problem, except that I am female.  When I dated my first
boyfriend, we went out for about two or three months before he kissed me,
and before that I felt awkard about physical contact.  Now I still have
slight problem with this.  But I find that a glass of wine helps me
relax.(Don't do this if you will drive.)  Music helps a lot too, especially
love songs.  When I listen to a favorite love song, my mind will enter
a romantic mood and it's much easier to have physical contact such
as touch hand, touch hair, lips...   I guess once you start the first
contact, the rest won't be as hard as it looks now.

You sounds like a nice guy.  Best wishes...

			*       *       *

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:07:16 PDT

I could not actually recall the first contact, because it was a long process.
The process is like this:  we got to know each other, had some nice talk,
then walk and talk (BTW, I really enjoy taking a walk and having nice
talk), we walked pretty close, then he took my hand in his, everything
went kind of slow and nice.  Basically, my boyfriend chose the moment that
I was relaxing and in a happy mode, and he did it slowly so he didn't scare
me off.  I have one suggestion:  when you are with her(talking, listening
to music, walking, having dinner, or whatever), you can start with her hands,
touch her hands slowly and caress softly, appreciate them, enjoy them,
hands are not too intimate if she is not (romanticly) interested in
you, but if she is, she will be moved.  

Guys like you are rarely now, and I can't help telling you one thing in case
you are hurt.  Some girls like strong and powerful men, men who have
courage to do whatever they want, so if you go slowly with them, they
probably think you are not interest in them or you are not "good" enough
for them, and you could be hurt if you got rejected.  In that case,
just think that girl is not your type, don't dwell(do I get it right?) on it.  
In any case, just remember "life goes on".  Shy people tend to think a lot.
That's fine.  But don't waste time regreting anything that you can't change. 

Forgive me if I wrote more than you want to hear.  
My account expire tomorrow.  And I couldn't help saying this because
I probably won't have another chance.

Good luck.

			*       *       *

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 14:20:43 -0500

O.K.   I grew up in a dysfunctional family (my father is and alcoholic).
My mom was working 40-48 hours/week and a basically withdrew from life.
I didn't get alot of touching/hugs/kisses from her.  She was too busy
taking care of my father and working to make the family unit survive
financially.  My father really never showed me any love (verbally or
non-verbally).  I'm older than you are and I agree that society puts
the pressure of the beginnings of a relationship on the men.  When I
came to grad school I only had one friend here (female) but she and
I rarely spent time together.  But right before I left another friend
also female introduced myself and sister to her ex-boyfriends roomate
(her friend)/her new boyfriend.  He would commute here to school for
a second job every Wednesday night and leave Friday.  He suggested
lunch when we all first met (he knew I would be lonely, not knowing
anybody else here and knew it would take time to make friends).
You ask "where is this leading?".  The first time he came down he
stopped at my home and brought down more of my stuff.  We went out
for coffee I think and talked and it was nice having a friend and
felt no pressure because he had a girl friend so I didn't have
to impress him.  When he was leaving he held out his arms to hug
me goodnight-it was the first time a male friend had ever done
something like that to me.  I never would have thought to hug him first
basically because I wouldn't want my actions to be misinterpreted.
Every time we went out he would hug me goodnight and I was able to
be at ease with him when he did.  Maybe if you were just to hold out your
arms slightly when you said goodnight at the end of the evening-
you could hold her.  As a woman I now realize (after living a bit) it's
definitely not easy for guys.  Do you do many things in the evening or
are there alot of lunches/day activities?  I think it's easier to touch
etc. later in the evening when you are both relaxed.  

Also, try visually yourself hugging her/holding her hand and she is happy
and so are you. See it as a positive experience.

Are you afraid she will pull away or cringe?  Sometimes it's difficult
to allow yourself to physically get close (it's scary because women are
conditioned to think it's all for sex) and you should do whatever makes you
comfortable.  Perhaps play with her hair and just stop there--don't expect
(and I don't think you are) too much response at first-feelings for another
person are very confusing.

Does any of this help?   I hope so. 

			*       *       *

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 16:19:16 EDT

> However, I have a question: I am unsure on how to proceed.  For too long I
> have been unsure of myself with regards initiating physical intimacy.  I

Take things slow.  If she wants physical affection, and recognises that
you have a problem knowing how much to do, go slow and let her allow.

> asking is: how do I know when it is appropriate to give a hug or a kiss or
> other expressions of affection?  I haven't even established at this point

Hugs, anytime!  (But seriously, I have hugged people I don't know well
after one or two times -- but only after a prolonged absence.

> whether she is looking for a platonic or romantic relationship.

If you don't know, make it platonic and see if there is more interest
there later on.

> insecurity is not an issue there.  It is just in this initial stage, when we
> are still establishing our "norms" or what it is acceptable and not
> acceptable to do, that I have problems.

Take it slowly.  If it is slower than she wants, she'll either encourage
behaviour, or else will initiate it.
			
			*       *       *

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 12:44:49 -0500

What kind of girls are they anyway?  Does it go further than cuddling?

I was going to tell you about touching her back because I just saw this boy
touch a girl in that manner and I believe it was in the beginning of their
relationship.

Also tell yourself positive things about yourself (they don't have to be
true-just telling yourself will give you confidence and override any
negative messages.

Don't focus on being a nice guy and not getting a girl.  I know some
nice guys (not that well)  and there alone.  But I'm too shy to do
anything about it and I know that they will end up with somebody.

Concentrate on getting to know her as a person and you will have a 
better relationship.

			*       *       *

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 14:01:36 EDT

All women are different.  As was once said: when a woman crys, she wants
one of two things of a man: either to be held, or to be left alone.
Regardless of what you choose in a situation,  you'll always be wrong :-(

			*       *       *

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 17:48:09 -0500

You are by taking a risk with this girl and spending energy thinking about
who you are and deciding who you are and what you want from life and the
people in your life.

			*       *       *

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 08:07:28 -0500

The fact is--you have met a girl whom you think is special.
Your posting indicated a desire to start/have/maintain a relationship
based on something other than friendship.  By wanting (yes-wanting) this
type of relationship (I hesitate to use terms such as boyfriend/girlfriend/
SO/going out/etc.--they mean different things to different people) you
have had to examine your personal values/goals/feelings/emotions.  This
only makes you more aware of who you are.  In turn it allows you to 
understand others around you and not fall into the trap of comparing yourself
to others. I'm O.K. You're O.K. concept (sort of).

Basically you've looked at your relationships with the opposite sex and
you're learning how to deal with women/girls.  Without knowing who you are
you're not going to be able to meet a really special woman.  I feel once
you know who you are it isn't as complicated (life).  

Newsgroups: alt.romance