HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ba446@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Todd M. Hanson)
Subject: Re: Fact or Fiction
Reply-To: ba446@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Todd M. Hanson)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 08:12:15 GMT


In a previous article, joeg@meaddata.com (Joe Gayda) says:

>In reading some of the recent "boring" threads. (Yawn)  I did catch
>two interesting comments...
>
>1) You don't get dex modifiers with plate.

This is not true (at least, I havent seen it anywhere in the books)

>2) You are +4 to hit and damage against an unarmed opponent.
>
>Where are these rules?  Are they house rules?

Definately NOT a house rule.  Check out players handbook, page 98, under
'Weapons in Non-Lethal Combat'.  Now that Im reading it over (no, I DONT
have the books memorized, I had to look this us) it gets even worse.
 
Not only do you get +4 to hit and damage - you also go first automatically,
regardless of initiative rolls.

Todd


-- 
* Todd Hanson                              ba446@cleveland.freenet.edu  *
*                                                                       *
*     "No woman's worth a bullet between the eyes.. "                   *
*          "Depends on who's eyes.. and which woman."    'Bugsy'        *
From: mosson@reseau.Berkeley.EDU (Groupe ELEVES)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Chromosonally-Challenged Characters
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:01:31 GMT
Reply-To: mosson@reseau.Berkeley.EDU (Groupe ELEVES)

In article <1992Aug24.121219.659@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>,
z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:

  {stuff about elves deleted...]
>                             
> 	This is min-maxing/powergaming! You have just said that elves are more
> desireable to play than humans -- if they were really balanced, you would be
> deciding with roleplaying in mind, not which race gives you the better bonus,
> as YOU HAVE JUST DONE!
> 
> Brandon Cope

  I don't agree! Choosing a PC race has nothing to do with balance. 
Making races equitable in game terms when they are not in your mind is
just poor role-play. Hey, if elves DO have more advantages than humans,
let's face it and accept it. You don't always want to play an elf each
and every time, so where's the problem?

  As long as the Detecting Secret Doors ability, I think TSR got a
little confused on this one. I wonder where the idea comes from... I'd
rather have given Sylvan Elves the same advantage as Rangers for Sneak
and Hide in Wilderness surroundings, and give High Elves some "Natural
magic", innate powers of the soul and aura ( perhaps akin to psionics ).
I also hate the -1 CON mod. These are rules made only for balance's
sake, and I don't like that.

  For another vision of elves, have a look at either MERP or Elfequest,
as I said before. Both are biased in favor of the elven races. And it
doesn't prevent very good role-play. I'd go further: in MERP, elven PCs
are quite rare. Well, at least where I play.

							Redwing
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Why are their level limits?
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:00:53 CST
Distribution: na
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Aug26.181636.12337@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu>, gajensen@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu writes:
> In article <1992Aug25.150404.675@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>  
>> 	IF the races are balanced, the adventurers will generally all live
>> about as long, regardless of race, unless they retire. IF the races are
>> balanced, an elvish mage is no more likely to reach 20th level than a human
>> mage is. Now, if they retire *after* reaching 20th level, the elf will of
>> course still be around in a couple of centuries. But he still isn't of a level
>> that a human can't get to with 10-15 years of hard work.
>> 
>> 	But, the races are NOT balanced.
> 
> Sure they are, demi-humans get certain bonuses that go alng with their
> repective race, they also get certain penalties, (Level limits and restricted
> class choices). 

	But neither of these are 'realistic' penalties. Level limits have no
justification outside of 'game balance' (what an ugly phrase). Also, level
limits mean nothing at low or mid levels, where demi-humans are *clearly*
superior to humans in AD&D. Restricted class choices, in general, don't make
much sense either. Almost any race could have their version of a 'paladin' (I 
could see a Dwarvish holy warrior, embodying the virtues and beliefs of the 
dwarvish religion). A ranger is certianly possible for dwarves (more of a
mountaineer than a forester, but a similar concept) and halflings. Just about
every race has their own bloody religion, so any of them could be priests.
Druidicism don't seem to fit dwarves or half-orcs very well, though. Because of
their anti-magic nature, dwarves and halflings couldn't be mages, but I don't
see why that should stop any other race (yes, a half-orc mage would be truly
nasty...). 
	I want penalties that make sense, not penalties that are slapped
together for 'game balance' (that ugly phrase again) so that T$R can claim that
game worlds would be humanocentric.
	I want penalties to balance out the advantages of each race, so that no
race is inherently weaker or stronger for PC use.
	I want specific penalties for each race, that are (more or less) unique
to that race.

	Yeah, I want a lot. I want the game to make sense and to be balanced in
a better, more logical, way.

Brandon Cope



Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus)
Subject: Re: What is with these Katana's?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 12:25:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.200413.21792@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>
>	Here's something I've been wondering about for quite some time:
>Why does a katana do d10 damage in AD&D?  Why is it so much better than a
>scimitar or even a long sword.  Don't make sense to me.
>
Mostly because of the craftsmanship.  A lot of labor went into making a
single katana, and the best ones were said to have a piece of the maker 
instilled into them.  For example, the swords made by the legendary 
swordsmith Masamune would turn in their wielder's hands rather than harm a
friend or commit seppuku unnecessarily.  His apprentice Masamune, who was not
quite such a nice guy, made swords that thirsted after blood.  (Nine lives
stealers, perhaps?)  

Generally speaking, if the techniques used to make a katana in feudal Japan
were used to make a European sword, the European swords would be much more
effective than they were before, and might even equal the katana.  The D&D
rules seem to take this into account.  However, it can be argued that the
katana, which was intended for slicing nominally-armed and armored 
opponents, would be less useful against the heavily-armored Europeans.
After all, the whole point of fighting in feudal Europe was to club your
opponent until he fell, not slice through his armor (although this was done
occasionally, it just wasn't the standard).  Still, the stabbing point of
the katana could do quite a number on chain links and chinks in heavy 
armor, so this could arguably even the score.

Interestingly enough, the Koreans have a sword very similar in use and legend
to the katana, called a gum (pronounced goom).  Part of the training of the
warriors who used the gum involved teaching them how to forge their own, so
it would always be a part of them.

The Walrus

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: cb317@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stephanie J. Kessler)
Subject: Re: Why are their level limits?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 19:16:50 GMT


Clerics don't HAVE  to use blunt weapons if they have  a deity
which allows the use of other weapons.  Of course, this changes
the spheres they can cast from, or the types of powers they get
(if used)...

That7s the rules.. there are loopholes for a lot of them, so
they can be worked around...
-- 
The United States is a nation of laws:  badly written and
randomly enforced.     Frank Zappa

cb317 @ cleveland.Freenet.Edu
From: gdg019@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Tolkien (was: Re: Elven Chain Mail (Why?))
Date: 26 Aug 92 10:02:47 GMT
Organization: Ironpig Arcadia, Coventry, UK

In article <matt.714678521@unidata.ucar.edu> matt@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks) writes:
>
>Think I'll have to read "Lord of the Rings" for a third time. Oh, and while
>I'm thinking of it, if you like parody, read the Harvard Lampoon's "Bored
>of the Rings." Absolutely hysterical.

Matter of opinion. It bored me shitless.

-- 
		 **Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig**
		     gdg019@cck.coventry.ac.uk
		 -----------------------------------
		  "Like your new haircut." - Bishop
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: wilder@mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
Subject: Re: Rangers and studded leather armor
    <BtJvo4.CqD@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1992Aug26.103057.6254@iscsvax.uni.edu>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:04:41 GMT

The penalty for non-Ranger tracking is -6, actually.

--
================================================================================
| Jeff W   uk06666@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they  |
| Wilder   & wilder@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck. |
================================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: rworkman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ryan Workman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Role Playing in Middle Earth
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:34:05 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

>In article <Btyp5F.9D5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> maxson@cerl.uiuc.edu (K R Maxson) writes:
>>Although this doesn't really have anything to do with DND, I must say that
>>the ICE products dealing with Middle Earth completely and utterly fail to be
>>true to the JRRT's creation.
>
>	You're entitled to that opinion, of course, but mine's diametrically
>opposed to yours. 
>	
>	In my completely arrogant opinion, the RoleMaster Middle-Earth 
>materials are magnificent, close and loving adaptations of what Middle-Earth
>was, with a great deal of attention paid to getting things as close as
>humanly possible to what the books represented, within the format of the
>RM game system. 
 [stuff about how Rolemaster does a decentjob of representing ME (Middle Earth)]
>
>	Moreover, the sourcebooks are useful even outside of RoleMaster
>or MERP -- my AD&D2 Middle-Earth campaign's GM used the RM sourcebooks
>extensively.
>
>	The modules are marvelous, too.
>
>                                 Sea Wasp
>                                   /^\
>                                   ;;;


I have to agree with Sea Wasp!  I used to write for Rolemaster (as a JRRT gruru)and I thought the modules were very well done, creatively and literally... (theyfollowed the literature very closely).  

I TOO have used RM Supplements and modules   (since I got most of them for free :-), but I use AD&D's combat system, well for the most part...      RM's combat system is a bit bogged down for me.

IMO, AD&D and Middle Earth is an awsome mix! (esp with RM's critical talbes :-)







>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Runfirst  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                                          
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: pyr530@oz.plymouth.edu (Rob Holden)
Subject: Re: Kender
Reply-To: pyr530@oz.plymouth.edu (Rob Holden)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 03:10:09 GMT

In article <66607@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>[On klepto kenders and being annoying and how they HAVE to play that way.]
>Have you ever read the DragonLance chronicles/legends books?  It was in
>these books that the kender race was created.  The main kender in the
>book was one Tasselhoff Burrfoot, who was a member of an adventuring party,

Another excellent example is Delbin Thistleknot (not sure of last name) that
was Kaz the Minotaur's travelling companion in Heroes Vol.2  
While he had the same tendency to "collect" items, all it took was a simple
"By the way, if you've found any of my items along the way, I'll take them
 off your hands for you." from Kaz to get his things back (and then some)
 
Though kenders tend to have sticky fingers, they are usually quite honest and
more than willing to return a "borrowed/found" item once they have had the
opportunity to examine it close up.


I must agree with Jorge when he says that kender are a favorite character
race, and that thievery is not what they are about.  It's ADVENTURE!

					Rob
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Why are their level limits?
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:37:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <67045@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>In article <67022@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca) writes:

>>>So, how do you explain that a cleric can cast spells in armor?

>>Because cleric spells are different than wizard spells.  

>Very convienent.

Think about it: the spells themselves are different, the way they learn them 
is different, and their repertoire is different.  Why not have different 
restrictions as well?  

>>>Game balance.  That's all it comes down to.

>>Considering that one of the most important aspects of a game is that it has 
>>to be playable, game balance is an infinitely good reason to make a rule.

>Thank you, Matthew, you've just proven my point.

Depends on your point.  If your point is that the rules are there because of 
game balance, I (mostly) agree.  If your point is that there is a *problem*
with this, then I don't.

Even if there weren't game balance issues, I think the rules make good sense
on their own merits; they help maintain variety and distinction among the 
character classes.  
-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written
From: kermits@ikaros.cc.uch.gr (Aggelos Keromyths)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Assassin
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:27:53 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Crete HELLAS
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

Could anyone post the assassin class (or is a kit) and the monk too ?
Thanks,
	Aggelos
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Elves and Munckinism.
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 20:45:05 GMT

In article <3981@sol.deakin.OZ.AU> quin@deakin.OZ.AU (Daniel Quinlivan) writes:
>In this discussion on elves one limiting thing about elves has been forgotten.
>When an elf dies they generally stay dead.   From memory there are about
>three ways to raise an elf.   A wish or like power.   A rod of resurrection
>and spending a heap of charges.  Divine intervention.

Reincarnation.

(Possibly followed by polymorph to change the new bear or whatever into a
humanoid, the trouble being it's very inconvenient the next Dispel Magic you
run into....)
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: alvalent@husc9.harvard.edu (Alvin Valentine)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: A word on Mages
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:59:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep4.095952.15362
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

A couple of notes.  First on spell memorization and then the question at hand.
1st ed. memorization time was never an hour per spell level.  There was
a base sleep requirement (I think 4-5 hours for 1st lvl spells up to 8 hrs
of rest for 9th).  Then there was a 15 min. per spell level mem. time.  This
may all be wrong, for I have not played my mage by 1st ed. rules for some
time, but check the spell section in the 1st ed. DMG for rules regarding this.
Actually given a full night's sleep which is common among second ed. games
for rememorization of spells, low level casters actually have a longer
combined rest + memorization time than they did before, and high level casters
have a shorter time.

How to make low level character's survivable:  Never had a problem.  
Start all mages and psionicists out at 2nd level.  Gives them many more
psi things or 1 more (2 for spec. wiz.) spells.  Also and extra HD.  So
the mage averages 5 HP without CON bonus.  That's more than the thief
and the cleric average.  IF that person is a specialist or other type with 
high CON or DEX pre-requisite, then the survivability is higher.

Tag on an Armor or a shield spell, and voila no more problem.  To make it all
fair, though, they actually start out at 0 XPs and don't gain third level
until they would normally.  So it's not  a long term boost and doesn't
have any real effect on game balance.  Also, if you avoid many combat
sessions in your campaign at low-level and stick to role-playing/problem
solving, the mages and bards will rock.  If you do a careful combination
of these, even if the mage is useless in combat, he'll still excel as
a good PC.  Also, many of the kits increase the # of things you can do.
A Mystic for instance has an extra ability once a week.

Think about it.  An Invoker under this system will have 3 spells (as many as
the average cleric) and about 10 HP which is what your fighter will have
if he has no CON bonus (according to Fighter's Handbook optional rule on 1st
level single-calss HP for Fighters).

I see no problem.  Our mage and our psi-guy in Ravenloft have more HP than
just about anyone else.

Multi-classing has it's advantages for playability at low levels.  Lastly,
no one but no one kicks butt for # of spells like a priest / mage.  IF you
worship Mystra goddess of magic or somesuch, then you basically have a
mage style spell selection for 4 spells at level 1/1, with the option of
taking healing if you want.  HPs suck though if you use CPH rules for 
Priests of Magic. 
 

 
Later,
 
Lee Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus)
Subject: Re: Why are there level limits?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 19:26:39 GMT
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content

In article <67229@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>In article <BtsJp4.645@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:
>
>>I see your problem.  Now, is this for purposes of character, out of necessity
>>(i.e. you're one of the few people in the party capable of combat), or is
>>it just munchkinism?
>
>Well, here's the deal.  In our party, we have 2 rangers, a paladin, a
>fighter, me, a thief, and two mages.  So I shouldn't be worrying about
>fighting, right?

Right.

>Well, two problems.

Uh-oh.  :)

>1), I tend to stay in the second rank (two warriors take the front and
>    two take the back).  On more than one occasion I've managed to get
>    attacked (and HIT) in the second rank.  I don't know what the buggers
>    use, but they somehow manage to hit me.  So I'd like a little protection.

I know this problem.  Suffered from this syndrome myself...

>2), We almost never have the entire group show up.  At our last session,
>    one of our warriors was killed, and two others didn't show up.  It was
>    me, the fighter, and the two mages.  Now, obviously the fighter is going
>    to do most of the fighting.  But he can't do it all himself.  That leaves
>    me and the mages.  Who do you think should do the fighting?

The people who didn't show up.  If they're not there, use their characters
anyway.  Between the lot of you, you should be able to remember their stats
(assuming the DM doesn't have a copy of each, which he should).  Use them
as NPC's.  Better yet, hire some hirelings to do your dirty work.  There are
always ways around this sort of thing.  Besides which, if those two just
"didn't show up" without warning, then they deserve what they get.

>>Although come to think of it, if you're a mage/priest, you're an elf or
>>half-elf, right?  Why not just hold out for elven chain?  You're likely
>>to find it sometime or other, and no matter why you want to do this, it
>>would still enable you to do both.  
>
>Well, I *am* a half-elf.  Only problem is I'm 5'8" tall, so it's hard to
>find elven chain that is made in my size - we've fought some drow before,
>and took theirs - it was too small, way too small.  Also, it dissolved
>as soon as we took it into the sunlight. :-)

Oh yeah--it does that, doesn't it?  Well, as I've said, there are always
other options.  Not that you _shouldn't_ cart the armor around--always handy
in a pinch--just that it could get mighty sticky if you run out of spells
in the middle of a fight and try to put on your armor.  *laugh*

The Walrus
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: mrmarcel@eos.ncsu.edu (MICHAEL RONN MARCELAIS)
Subject: Re: Demi-humans vs. Humans (was: Re: Why are their level limits?)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:34:33 GMT

In article <BtpDJt.4uo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, alongley@cape.UWaterloo.ca (Allan Longley) writes:
|> Another big minus to demi-humans ... they CANNOT be raised from the dead.
|> Raise dead only works on creatures with souls (which includes dwarves) but
|> NOT on creatures with spirits (animals, elves, gnomes).  And this IS NOT a
|> house rule.
|> 
WOAH:  According to my sources only ELVES cannot be raised.  Every other
'standard' race (gnomes, half-elves (because their half-human), etc) CAN be
raised.  Of course anyone can be ressurected, but that may mean turning into a
different race, loosing half of your levels (if the new race allows your old
profession) or all of them (if it doesn't).

|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Allan Longley, University of Waterloo, Department of Chemical Engineering
|> e-mail: alongley@cape.uwaterloo.ca
|> voice: (519) 885-1211 x3816		Back to work
|> home: (519) 746-5747
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 

+-------------------------------------+------------------------------+
|  Mike Marcelais                     | mrmarcel@eos.ncsu.edu        |
|  353 Tucker, Box 04780, NCSU        | Fourth Bryan Productions     |
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+-------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| if the above address bounces, then try the address below:          |
| mrmarcel%eos.ncsu.edu@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu                              |
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