From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Yes, Remember Cyprus
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:30:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bu2GrB.GsE
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:

I will comment on a few of the statements you made in this as in a previous
article.  These comments are mine and do not represent the views of my
government, ethnic, religious group, etc., etc.

>You have killed and tortured who knows how many Turkish Cypriots over the
>period 1958-1974 ( 16 YEARS ) and you are telling me the Turkish Army killed
>more people than you have in only 1 MONTH!

>1974 was a military intervention while 1958-1974 was THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF
>THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS.1974 Peace Operation was literally asked for by
>the Greek Cypriots and Greeks

I do not know all the facts about the ethnic fights between Greek and Turkish
Cypriots between 1958-1974.  All I listen to is the Greek version of the events
which I do not claim to be the most objective.  But I think you too, Besime,
only listened to the Turkish version, which I do not think is objective either.
For example, how and why did the intracommunity struggle begin?  My version of
events is that Denktash and his assistants planted a bomb outside a Turkish
club to raise anti-Greek sentiments within the Turkish Cypriots.  Is this the
thruth?  I don't know.  I m expecting your version of events.  Did you
know that during the EOKA guerilla war against the British there was a special
force composed of Turkish Cypriots (Epikouriko in Greek) which aided the British
in tortures against the Greek Cypriot guerillas in the concentration camps?
I am not trying to blaim anybody here;  I am just pointing to you that indeed
there are two sides of the coin.

You claim of ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots between 1958-1974.  I will
personnaly admit that there were murders of innocent Turkish Cypriots by radical
Greek Cypriots.  I ABSOLUTELY CONDEMN THESE ACTIONS, and the vast majority of
Greek Cypriots agrees with me on that.  During the same period, especially
1963-1964 (when by the way most, if not all, of the murders against Turkish
Cypriots occurred) there was also murders and attrocities against Greek
Cypriots.  In August 1964 (or was it 1963?) Turkish plains bombarded the region
of Tillyria (NW Cyprus) with Napalm bombs burning to death several Greek
Cypriots.  Who started first or who killed more I cannot answer.  I am
waiting for your version of events.  Please, though, give me your personal
opinion, not the one written in the official bulletins of Denktash.  In your
knowledge, how many Turkish Cypriots were killed during 1958-1974?  Does that
constitute "ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS" as you claim above?  If
as you claim the Greek Cypriots had the arms and the power to exterminate the
"unarmed" Turkish Cypriots couldn't they do a better job?  I submit to you
that 10,000 Greek Cypriots were killed as a result of the Turkish invasion.
Can you still claim that you cannot kill more people in one month (or one day
for that matter) as you can kill in 16 years?

You also claim that the Greek Cypriots "1974 Peace Operation was literally
asked for by the Greek Cypriots and Greeks".  That is a lie.  Why would we?
I don't know a single Greek Cypriot that is happy that Turkey invaded Cyprus.
Certainly none of the 1/3 of the Greek Cypriots who are refugees think so.
The Turkish invasion by Turkey was illegal and against the Treat signed by her
in October 16, 1960.  To refresh your memory I include article II of th Treaty:

    Article II

Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom, taking note of the undertakings
of the Republic of Cyprus set out in Article I of the present Treaty,
recognize and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity, and
security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the state of affairs
established by the Basic Articles of its Constitution.
Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
so far as concerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other state or partition of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the Island.
^^^^^^^^^^

....................

For the Republic of Cyprus:
    O KYPROU MAKARIOS       F. KUCUK

    For Greece:
C. CHRISTOPOULOS

For Turkey:
    VECDI TUREL

    For the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland:
HUGH FOOT


>Try to see the other side's case too for once.
>We the TUrkish CYpriots have lost
>people and left property in the South as well.

>I can look at my mother's families house from the green line in Nicosia
>(It's also on the other side) too. Propotionately my people have been
>displaced from their homes too and They had started living in refugee camps
>LONG BEFORE 1974.

To claim that you lost propery in the South and that you are refugees too
is a stretch of reality.   The Greek Cypriots did not force you to
flee to the North, like the Turks forced the Greek Cypriots to flee to South.
If anything, the Greek Cypriots prohibited you to go to the occupied North.
And certainly you are free to go to the South and claim your property,
unlike the Greek Cypriots.  Some Turkish Cypriots did that.  To try to equate
two totally different situations (forceful eviction - willing abandonment) is
absurd.  Your mother or you are free to come to the South and claim your
property.  Is any of the Greek Cypriot refugees free to do the same with his/her
property to the North?

>I have a counterargument to make for every argument you make to me about
>Cyprus so once again continue your efforts to have the world believe that
>you are the innoncent angels in this case WHEN YOU CLEARLY AREN'T and WHEN
>YOU KNOW IT BUT YOU FAIL TO ADMIT IT.

I do not claim to be "innocent angels".  That however does not excuse or
legitimize the Turkish invasion of Cyprus and the illegal occupation of 37% of
Cyprus.  In a previous posting you stated that we should start with a clean
sheet of paper.  This is easy to say when you are trying to legitimize an
illegal (by any standards) action.  To me it is equivalent to a thief saying
after he is being caught:  "O.K. you caught me.  I 'll give you half of what I
stole and we will forget it. Fair enough?"  I say we should start from a clean
sheet of paper, but go back before the illegal Turkish invasion.  Let's go
back to the 1960 constitution.  That is the last thing we agreed on.
By the way, your above statement indicates to me an unwillingness to talk
honestly and openly about the problem.  You seem to be argumentative.  I trust
that in your response (if any) you will be more cooperative.  I honestly tried
to see your point of view and not be confrontational.

P.S.  It was a very pleasant surprise to see the post by Mr. Serdar Boztas.
      I feel that I can talk openly and honestly with this person about
      all our differences.

>Besime Erin

Sincerely,
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet