HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism.d,misc.legal,alt.politics.bush,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Weinberger's Pardon
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:58:07 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.
NNTP-Posting-Host: prism.cs.orst.edu

In article <1993Jan7.044609.23372@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@bird.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
>And the Boland Amendment most certainly *did* apply to the NSC.  Actually,
>the NSC wasn't authorized to conduct *any* operations, but assuming it
>did, it was certainly limited by a law that forbid all departments and
>agencies form aiding the contras.
>
The Boland amendment (depending on version) prohibited US Intelligence
agencies from aiding the contras.  The NSC is not a US Intelligence
agency.  In fact, at one time during the drafting of the amendment
someone proposed adding the NSC to the list of agencies that would 
fall under the purview of law, and it was explicitly TAKEN OUT
of the draft language.

-- 
Don McGregor             | "Adventure without risk is Disneyland."
mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu|       --Douglas Coupland
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: trimble@ph-meter.beckman.uiuc.edu (Chris Trimble)
Subject: Re: Execute Amy Fisher!!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 21:36:58 GMT

mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:

>>Need I say more?  We've got to do something about murderers!

>Actually Amy Fisher only wounded the woman.  Seriously wounded, but I believe
>she made a complete recovery.

 According to what I've seen on TV (which includes the story told by
 Amy Fisher), the wife had such serious head wounds that she can not
 really function any more.

   - Chris

--
Chris Trimble	         | I'll tell you why 
B.I. Systems Services    | But you wouldn't believe me 
chris1@uiuc.edu          | You just haven't earned it yet, baby    - The Smiths 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: dave@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Dave Thompson)
Subject: Re: JFK archive?
Keywords: JFK, archive
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 13:04:18 GMT

In article <ldsoderb.726779748@reading> ldsoderb@susssys1.reading.ac.uk (David S. Oderberg) writes:
>Can anyone tell me whether the voluminous postings on JFK's 
>assassination have been archived, so that I may consult them?
>If so, how?
>Thanks.
>D.S.O.

Yes there is a site you can ftp into as anonymous and use your e-mail
address as the password. I have accessed this site myself to retrieve files.
However I can't find the piece of paper that had the address on it. I suggest
you post this question to alt.conspiracy.jfk. Someone will be able to provide
the ftp site again.

David C. Thompson
Ottawa, Canada

Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:13943 alt.atheism:25658 talk.religion.misc:25835
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: _Jesus: A Life_ by A.N. Wilson
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:58:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,talk.religion.misc
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan7.043547.3291@engage.pko.dec.com>, pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius) writes:
|> In article <C0G7Lo.4GE.1@cs.cmu.edu> tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price) writes:
|> >
|> >Matthew 27:24-25
|> >
|> >	When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather 
|> >	a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the 
|> >	multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person:
|> >	see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be
|> >	on us, and on our children.
|> 
|> I don't understand your purpose of quoting this passage ...

Especially in alt.atheism.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Query: Document on AIDS as a biotech mistake?
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 13:06:47 GMT

In article <C0M0sJ.M8q@iat.holonet.net> timper@iat.holonet.net (Tim Perkis) writes:
:I'm looking for a document which I've heard exists but never have seen.
:Supposedly an(East) German biochemist wrote a technical report on why
:he thought HIV was a synthetic virus. 
:
:DOes anyone have any more information about the whereabouts of this
:or other technical documents in this area.

That document is generally accepted by both sides of this argument as
having been generated as a piece of psychological warfare by the old
communists.  It was debunked on at least one UK documentary that I've
seen, by serious investigative reporters.

Sorry, it was all so long ago I've forgotten the details.

G
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism.d,misc.legal
From: eck@panix.com (Mark Eckenwiler)
Subject: Re: Weinberger's Pardon
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Superseding Information, Inc.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:59:53 GMT

In <JMC.93Jan3234046@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU sez:
>Vengeful lot, these liberals.
>--
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
>*
>He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.


Imagine the nerve of those guys, trying to correct the new, improved
revisionist version of the facts offered by Ollie-lovers about
Iran-Contra.  We all know that Repetition Makes Truth, and if you
apotheosize North enough times by misstating the facts, then these
carping liberals can be seen as the true Enemies of the State that
they are.

"Doomed to talk nonsense," indeed.



-- 
		   Shut up and wave yer flag, boy.

	Mark Eckenwiler    eck@panix.com    ...!cmcl2!panix!eck
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc
From: chrisb@seachg.uucp (Chris Blask)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
Keywords: No argument, you win.
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.UUCP (Chris Blask)
Organization: Sea Change Corporation, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 15:37:59 GMT

>>And my opinion is that GOD doesn't care about non-entities, such as 
>>governments, education, churches, fads, and the like... only individual
>>people, each directly and individually. 
>>
>>>Lets see.  The United States and God.  Did your god support slavery and then
>>>change his mind ( and very slowly, from the Civil War up to Martin Luther King
>>>and Malcom X, over almost 100 years! )?
>>
>>Slavery is another non-entity. Why would GOD care?
>>
>>>Does your god support Vietnam, Cambodia, El Salvador?
>>
>>more n-e's
>>
>
>Hmm.  A god who doesn't care about "moral" infractions.  Or perhaps your
>god thinks enslaving people and killing people is an okay thing to do for
>these individuals He/She/It is concerned with?
>

Religion, the sack-over-the-head of the masses.

-chris blask
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: BOOK: "The Insiders" - part 3 of 4
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:20:52 GMT

In article <1ispuaINNcuu@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> lwb@cs.utexas.edu (Lance W. Bledsoe) writes:
>                             Part III - 1992
>
>The grip on the reins of the U.S. government possessed by the Insiders
>grew dramatically when George Bush entered the White House. Far from
>being an opponent of the powerful few who dictate America's policies,
>Mr. Bush is a long-standing member of the Insider clique, sometimes
>known simply as "the Establishment."
>
>Staff reporter Sidney Blumenthal could write in the February 10, 1988
>issue of the Insider-led Washington Post: "George Bush, in fact, has
>been a dues-paying member of the Establishment, if it is succinctly
>defined as the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral
>Commission." 

HINT: Sidney Blumenthal was joking.  Read the entire article.

Of course, the TLC is so powerful that Bill Clinton won the election.

If you want to see something *really* scary, check out that eye on
top of the pyramid on the one-dollar bill.  Betcha the Satanists
at Proctor & Gamble are behind that one.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism.d,misc.legal,alt.pol
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Weinberger's Pardon
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:59:33 GMT

In article <JMC.93Jan3234046@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Vengeful lot, these liberals.

This, of course, distinguishes them from conservatives, who drip with
the milk of human kindness.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott Erickson)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: CROP CIRCLES
Date: 5 Jan 1993 09:58:48 -0600
Organization: University of Conformist Thought
Reply-To: serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott Erickson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu


>>>Can anyone tell me about Crop Circles?
[comments and such deleted]
>
[pet theory deleted]
>
>The CBC, (Canadian Broadcasting Corp)'s science show _Quirks and Quarks_ 
>did a piece on crop circles this summer (I think).  The show (Sorry it
>must've been a year ago, since I think it was the big teasers of 1991 in
>science) basically boiled down to that there are two kinds of crop
>circles, man-made and weird ones.  The weird ones were characterized by
>low level radiation or bizzare unstable elements (I forget). I found this
>to be an annoying punchline, since I'd rather believe that they are made
>by pranksters than falling space junk or whatever.
>
>I think this is more of a science weirdness topic than a conspiracy one,
>anyone have more info on the Q&Q show or other non-tabloid info?
>-- 

This week on TLC (The Learning Channel) the Science Frontiers show will
discuss crop circles.  I believe Science Frontiers airs on Thursday nights,
but I am not sure at what time.

Last week Science Frontiers discussed the topic of the Bermuda Triangle.  I
found it gave a convincing (to me anyway) argument explaining what has caused
the disappearance of ships and such.  I liked it because the theory did not
involve UFO's, psychic phenomena, or that other jazz. 

--
serickso@ub.d.umn.edu                                         Scott Erickson
From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Bo Gritz vs Chip Berlet
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:51:22 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences

In article <1isua5INNhec@im4u.cs.utexas.edu>, lwb@cs.utexas.edu (Lance W. Bledsoe) writes:
|> 
|> At what point did George Washington turn from a terrorist to a patriot?
|> 

Oh boy.  Finally a question so simple even I can answer it!!

When Cornwalis surrendered and gave us permission to publish our own
history books. 
 
I would be very interested in what a British history book has to say about
it though.  I have a friend who is Irish and he never studied the American
Revolution in all of his history classes (everything up through college.)
Maybe we're not really as important to the rest of the world as we like to
think.

bill

-- 

   Bill Gunshannon     | "There are no evil thoughts, Mr. Reardon" Francisco
   bill@cs.uofs.edu    |  said softly, "except one; the refusal to think."
                       |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.activism,talk.religion.misc
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: John Birch Society
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 18:18:27 GMT

      Life was so much simpler when all we had to do was hate the Commies.

      Actually, the world of the 1990s is starting to look like the world of
the 1890s.  Lots of major powers.  Ethnic troubles.  Dumb wars in the
Balkans dragging in other nations.  A Russia surrounded by states it barely
gets along with.  An isolationist USA.

      The threat of the Big One with the USSR has faded.  The problem now
is avoiding World War I, Part Two.

					John Nagle
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc
From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 02:09:01 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Keywords: Why Bother?! 

In article <7JAN199321154250@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (General Mineral) writes:

[deletions]

>What's interesting is that you, (THOU), chose to respond to the posting
>rather than just going about your business. Why would anyone's faith
>in GOD matter in a Godless universe? Why do you bother responding?

 Well, the problem is, these people keep trying to pass laws to make
us conform to their religious ideals whether we believe or not.
Some of them even think the Earth was made 6,000 years ago and dinosaur
skeletons were put in the ground to fool scientists- and *want* *this*
*taught* *in* *public* *schools*!!
 The ones who can't agree on the name of this "God" keep shooting each
other and sometimes we get hit in the crossfire.
 If we do admit that we don't accept the fairy tales, we are at best
thought of as odd and at worst attacked and discriminated against.
 We have to pay more taxes because theists get to exempt some of their
real estate.
 And some of us just really hate the idea of all that effort going to
support the "least productive industry in history."
 Etc.

 *That's* why it matters.

 Followups to alt.atheism.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles
 ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:13700 alt.politics.usa.constitution:1375 alt.activism:20020 talk.religion.misc:25103
From: aq817@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Steve Crocker)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: MKULTRA and Lee Harvey Oswald
Date: 9 Jan 1993 12:01:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


If there really was an MKULTRA connection to Oswald that would be 
very interesting indeed. There was a set of MKULTRA experiments
done in Mexico at the request of James Jesus Angleton's counterintelligence
division. Could this be related somehow to Oswald's travels in Mexico?

(The Mexicam MKULTRA experiments are mentioned in Marks "The Search for the 
Manchurian Candidate")

-Steve
Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:13857 alt.atheism:25442 talk.politics.misc:66818
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:20:25 GMT
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1993Jan8.153130.2369@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>> 
>The big clue!  We try to figure God out.  The problem is, He won't
>fit in our understanding... too big...would blow the circuits.  So
>why not let him put His understanding in us.  All we have to do is
>sincerely ask Him.  If He was wise enough to put the universe
>together, He can certainly find a way to communicate with us if
>we're interested.
>
>-Joe Gaut

  Here's the newsgroups line for those of you who missed it:

  Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc

  What exactly does the above paragraph, the entirity of new
  material in Mr. Gaut's post, have to do with *any* of these
  newsgroups?  (Ok, Ok, so christianity is a conspiracy, but that's
  stretching it).

  Did I hibernate for 9 months?  Is it September again?  One would
  think so from the volume of proslytizing crap I've seen on this
  group over the last few weeks.  

  Perhaps you're all getting tired of me playing net.police, but
  bored minds have gotta keep busy somehow.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: CROP CIRCLES
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:26:52 GMT

bungle@cellar.org (Sir Charles of Manson) writes:


>Can anyone tell me about Crop Circles?
>Don't be shy.  Flood my box with mail.
>I am ready.

Ah, yes, time to air my pet theory again (must be
the second or third time in 18 months).

Wheat, you see, after millions of years of natural
evolution, and thousands of years of selective
breeding by Man, has become sentient, and is trying
to communicate with us.
From: anon.550@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: RSADSI+PKP=NSA?
Date: 10 Jan 1993 09:03:17 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
Reply-To: anon.550@pax.tpa.com.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au


e************************ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE *******************************
The Recent controversy raging in recent weeks in sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp
and alt.security.ripem evidently has some roots in reality.
According to anonymous sources RSA/DSI and PKP attorneys forced
the withdrawal from distribution of PGP 2.1 sources at the electric pencil
ftp site. The controversy over Public Key Ciphers and in particular
the applicability of the RSA/DSI  "non-commercial use" license has centered
around whether PGP 2.1 is excluded by the language of the license or not.
in what ever case because of the tenacity of the opponents PGP 2.1's
popularity was boosted many times over, much to the dismay of
RSA/DSI, PKP and David Sternlight(an apologist for the NSA and RSA/DSI).
PGP2.1 was posted worldwide recently allowing literally ANYONE with
access to computational hardware to send email and post news with effectively
unbreakable state of the art RSA/IDEA Cryptosystems. All source code
is provided. PGP2.1 may be found in Alt.sources. As most intelligence
work involving surveillance covers is economically cheap for the
investigating agency currently due to the ease of monitoring email,
PGP 2.1 is expected to "raise the cost of doing business" several times
over for intelligence agencies worldwide. The NSA is the 
US agency that will most probably be hardest hit by the release of PGP2.1
followed by the IRS,DEA and DIA as well as the SS and FBI. These
have been traditionally the agencies that have been caught in the process
of domestic surveillance the most. As PGP 2.1 was developed internationally
there appears at present no inhibition of its distribution except in the US
by RSA/DSI and PKP. The question must be raised, are RSA/DSI and
PKP really NSA front organizations? :)
Peace and rights groups worldwide in danger of surveillance by intelligence
agencies are obtaining PGP 2.1 for security and integrity of their email
communications.
(Finally A Real Conspiracy!!)
    go in peace
    jensen

--
** Anonymity & Privacy by PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) **

anon.admin@pax.tpa.com.au (a human)   anon.info@pax.tpa.com.au    (for help)
anon.ping@pax.tpa.com.au  (get alias) anon.key@pax.tpa.com.au     (register key)
anon.###@pax.tpa.com.au   (reply)     anon.post.grp@pax.tpa.com.au (post to grp)
anon.list@pax.tpa.com.au  (to mailing list about anonymous mailers)
anon.subscribe@pax.tpa.com.au         anon.unsubscribe@pax.tpa.com.au

For dialup Unix access phone +61-8-235-9010 - online registration.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc
From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
Keywords: Double Entendres 
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 20:10:30 GMT

In article <8JAN199321384694@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (General Principle) writes:

[Do you mind if I call you Steve, General?]

> [...]
>
> I'm wondering if there are really any true "atheist."

I'm a true atheist, so the answer would appear to be `yes'. Does this help?

Cheers

Simon
-- 
Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,alt.president.clinton
From: sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Execute Amy Fisher!!!
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:03:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.181601.7808@netcom.com> howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey) writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.105826.10310@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes:
>>I think the victim is entitled to some if not all of the money Fisher is
>>getting from the obscene number of book/movie deals she got.
>>
>
>Look everyone, Simon's turning
It will be a day of ice skating on the river Styx before that wuld happen.


Simon

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Re: Little Known Fact About Somalia
Summary: Uranium is the major natural resource of Somalia
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 04:59:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.160003.1@jaguar.uofs.edu> ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu writes:

|	The major natural resouce of Somalia is.....



|	URANIUM


|	And it's a humanitarian mission....YEAH RIGHT!!!!



|	(found in 1990 CIA BOOK OF THE WORLD)

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD -- New-Israel
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Multiple Entendres
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:19:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.201030.17107@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, 
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes...

>In article <8JAN199321384694@utarlg.uta.edu> 
>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (General Principle) writes:
> 
>[Do you mind if I call you Steve, General?]

Please do.

>> I'm wondering if there are really any true "atheist."
> 
>I'm a true atheist, so the answer would appear to be `yes'. Does this help?
> 
>Cheers
> 
>Simon

Yes, as far as you've gone. I'd also like to know how you differ from
a skeptic? Extrapolating, from the dictionary, a true atheist strongly
denies there is a GOD or gods. Is this the essential point, defined in 
relation to God(s)??? More to the point, if GOD is not, and not worth 
considering, is there some other conception apart from GOD that helps 
describe who you are as an atheist. (Besides of course, your assertion.) 

By the by. The FAQ -- I've read. Atheism, isn't what I want to know.
Atheist are.  < Which is not to say I shouldn't try not to be preachy,
IAW rule whatever, subtitle 10, section A, clause 8 of latin subheading
XXI... =->

   |
-- J --
   |
   |  Stephen  

Xref: sparky alt.conspiracy:14005 alt.atheism:25896 talk.politics.misc:67430