HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Luke, Derrida, Papists, Luther...and Steve Adams.
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Dec11.144827.9461@ac.dal.ca>
Date: 12 Dec 1992 02:10:18 UTC

In article <1992Dec11.144827.9461@ac.dal.ca> 
hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <adams.723754865@spssig>, 
adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>> [Luke 14:26 - the verse that wouldn't die!]
>>>The only thing I would add is that it is interesting that one version
>>>of that conversation came out so differently than the other. 
>> It is most likely
>> that Christ spoke the Luke text...why would Luke use those words otherwise?
>I agree. The Luke version is definitely more potentially confusing. Just
>for comparsion, here's the Gospel of Thomas version:
> Jesus said, Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot
> become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and mother
> as I do cannot become a disciple to me.  For my mother gave me falsehood,
> but my true mother gave me life.
>Odd!

It does seem odd at first doesn't it? I think it's just "feed the fire"
versus "quench the fire." Jesus is turning inward, away from man,
essentially rejecting man. The only question now is whether to procede
until one vanishes in a puff of light, or return to restore. Something
to think about, that's all. Or ignore. "For my mother gave me falsehood,
but my true mother gave me life." Now that *is* a metaphor.

>>>A definition of religion: recreational narcissism. 
>>>Sounds weird and nasty and cynical, but it's true!
>> I'll have to think about that one...
>Narcissism means: being in love with an image.  Recreational means: you do it
>for the pleasure it brings. 
>People are religious because they fall in love with images that seem to 
>promise them relief from the difficulties they are experiencing with
>other images.  That's all I'm saying here, really. Nothing revolutionary,
>I assure you. 

Of course, not necessarily "good or bad," assuming one knows or can know
the method of one's madness. Webster's II: method [Fr. methode < Lat.
methodus < Gk. methodos: meta, after + hodos, journey.] What a long
strange trip it's been.

>"You have heard it said that God is dead. Verily, I say unto you, he's not
>dead. He's just resting."  And the people said, "Just resting? Come on! He's 
>dead! Wakey wakey, God! See? This, my friend, is an ex-God!" And he replied 
>unto them, saying, "Oy, mate, he's not dead, I tell you! He's just resting. 
>Err...he's pining for the fjords!" -- Usenet Survival Guide.

What would we do without the BBC?
From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Daily verse BG 1.6
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 01:43:02 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

                                TEXT 6

                        yudhamanyus ca vikranta
                         uttamaujas ca viryavan
                       saubhadro draupadeyas ca
                          sarva eva maha-rathah

  
yudhamanyuh--Yudhamanyu; ca--and; vikrantah--mighty;
uttamaujah--Uttamauja; ca--and; virya-van--very powerful;
saubhadrah--the son of Subhadra; draupadeyah--the sons of Draupadi;
ca--and; sarve--all; eva--certainly; maha-rathah--great chariot
fighters.

    
                              TRANSLATION

	There are the mighty Yudhamanyu, the very powerful Uttamauja, the
son of Subhadra and the sons of Draupadi. All these warriors are great
chariot fighters.

From Bhagavad-Gita As It Is
Books of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami


       -------------------------------------------------------
      |  Don't forget to chant:   Hare Krishna Hare Krishna   |
      |                           Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |                           Hare Rama Hare Rama         |
      |                           Rama Rama Hare Hare         |
      |                                                       |
      |   Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA     |
      |        (kalki33!kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us)            |
       -------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:23612 alt.atheism:23367 alt.slack:3419
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:01:26 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Dec11.054012.10468@microsoft.com> jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer) writes:
>Answer 1:
>
>There is a God-shaped hole in every person, and without God, a person
>is empty.

  Take Bill Cosby's advice then and put a bandaid over it to keep the
  air in.

  I have, however, had some clearly mystical experiences whilst on
  the shitter.  Is that the hole you were referring to?  If so, what
  do you suggest exactly that I fill it with?  


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
From: pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius)
Subject: Re: Heaven/Hell (was: Re: Perfect Love)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard MA
Distribution: world,public
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:28:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.222713.7216@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>
>Then I guess you have never read Revelations, among other things.
>
>	. . . ; and he [ie, an unbeliever] shall be tormented with
>fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the
>presence of the Lamb:  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for
>ever and ever:  and they have no rest day nor night. . .[Rev. 14:9-11]

There are a few problems in applying this passage to the conventional
idea of "hell":

(1) This passage applies only in the Great Tribulation - an event
    still to come, to those who will receive the mark of the beast
    during that period.

(2) Concerning the meaning of 'fire and brimstone', I have explain
    its metaphorical meaning, as interpreted by Calvin, in another
    thread ("Afterlife theology in Judaism and Christianity").
    Please read the discussions in that thread.

(3) The phrase 'forever and ever' (literally, 'to the ages of the ages')
    modifies the ascension of the 'smoke', which, possibily signifies
    the memorial of the event; that phrase does not modify 'torment'.
    Is the toment itself 'to the ages of the ages' as well?  I don't
    know.  There is the possibility that it is not, judging from the
    fact that the toment mentioned here is described as 'before the
    Lamb', but in eternity the Lamb will be at the center of New
    Jerusalem while the Lake of Fire will be outside the city.

Regards,
-- 
For Christ and His Kingdom
-- Publius
Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, all mine, mine alone.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: siphon@momad.li.ny.us (Stimpson J. Katz)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: God etc
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21:40:17 EST
Reply-To: siphon@Momad.LI.NY.US (Stimpson J. Katz)
Organization: Modem Madness BBS    1+516-295-9435

torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:

> 
>   I find it baffling why, from the point of view of religion, it should be
> considered a question of importance whether or not there is a God who
> created the world, or again, whether or not Jesus was in fact a Savior
> of mankind. Surely all this business about the universe being created,
> about eternal life, about damnation and power and hopes and fears, is
> irrelevant to what religion is about?

    Then enlighten us, O sage, what precisely is relgion about?

Siphon@Momad.LI.NY.US
Stimpson J. Katz

     I swear, by my life and my love of it, never to live for the
sake of another man, nor to ask another man to live for mine.
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Summary: Forget thinking what about lynching?
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:26:36 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1992Dec8.163846.20996@u.washington.edu> sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:

>... it beats thinking.

It also means that you don't have to justify all those hatred you have. You
don't have to defend your hatred of Gays - Jesus told you they were scum.
And what about Blacks? You can talk about Family Values (tm) meaning inner
city black women not white suburban single mothers! You can even get them
sterilized which you never could when you were talking about the White,
Christian Country God made the USofA!

Being a Christian means you never have to say "Sorry"!

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.pagan,alt.mythology
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Afterlife theology in Judaism and Christianity and ...
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<MAGI.92Dec14182632@polaris.utu.fi>
Date: 14 Dec 1992 20:00:20 UTC

In article <MAGI.92Dec14182632@polaris.utu.fi> 
magi@polaris.utu.fi (Marko Gr|nroos) writes:
>In article <ByzzLC.An0@unix.amherst.edu> 
nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes:
>> : Hell: The word *hell* has existed since Old English times as a name for
>> 	What about "hell" [German] = "bright, fiery"?  Or does that come from
>> a different root, and a later set of conventions(i.e., guys with pitchforks,
>> lots of bonfires, torture by flame...)
>Hmm, the nearest resembling word in finnish is 'hella', the thing with
>round metal plates on in that you use for cooking by placing pots,
>frying pans and other objects on it (sorry, my english doesn't include
>household terminology). Does this mean that Hell is a place where
>not-so-careful travelling mythologists captured by jungle natives end
>up?

Ah, cannibalism or ritual cannibalism, the sort of eating the body and
blood thing. Ah, yes, a quaint custom. But, from your description, it
sounds like a hella must be the old Ben Franklin, ie a wood burning
stove.

>  How about english 'Hello'? As you know, the Evil One welcomes
>everyone under his service and eventually his kingdom.. "Hello,

Webster's II: hello [Alteration of obs. holla, stop!, prob. < OFr. hola
: ho, ho! + la, there.]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Re: 12/18/92   God's Promise in Luke 1:79
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 10:27:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.142435.642@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>>	To give light
>>	to them that sit in the darkness
>>	and in the shadow of death,
>>	to guide our feet into the way of peace.
>
>Tell that to the Somalians.  Looks like your deity is breaking his
>promise.  How many thousands of them die every day?
>
>Read the description in the latest _Time Magazine_ of what physically
>happens to a person as he starves to death, then try to tell me that
>you worship a loving god.
>

Physical pain, and finally death, are insignificant compared to the joy of
knowing God!  Suffering within God's will purifies the soul and communicates
to ther world the surpassing value of the spiritual over the physical, the
eternal over the temporal.

   For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears
   up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.  For what credit is ther if,
   when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience?  But if
   when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this
   finds favor with God.  For you have been called for this purpose, since
   Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in
   His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
   and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He
   uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges
   righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that
   we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were
   healed.  For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have
   returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (1 Peter 2:19-25,
   NASB)


John M.
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Anthony Rose; ANSWERING
Date: 12 Dec 92 04:26:47 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Dec11.121338.61947@cc.usu.edu> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>In article <37QZ02jc2ehb01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>,
> agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>
>[...]
>
>> Has he issues a doctrinal warning on the book?  Does he allow it to be
>> continually be sold under "missionary" section of the Church's bookstores?
>> Not a good postion to argue from.  If he doesn't endorse it, he certainly
>> wouldn't allow it to be sold under that title, in the missionary section,
>> of all the LDS bookstores.  Trust me!  The prophets have a past record
>> of cleaning out books that they don't approve of.  This one wouldn't be
>> an exception.
>
>_Mormon Doctrine_ has not been in the "missionary" section of the
>"Deseret Bbook" store in Logan for several years.  Its in the
>General Authority's section along with McConkies other
>comemtaries, as well as commentaries by others: Neal A. Maxwell,
>Boyd K. Packer, et cetera.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu


Maybe you'd be interested in calling the Mesa, AZ bookstore and find out
why they have it in their MISSIONARY SECTION.  Let me know if you'd like
the number.
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:48:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) says:

>In article <1gnifaINNsko@cascade.ens.tek.com> davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>>Jen Kilmer writes:
>>>Christianity is true.
>>
>>  And so are many other spiritual traditions.	
>
>How do you reconcile Jesus' statement of Himself being the only way to
>the Father?  Jesus said the whole of Scripture points to Himself, yet
>people refuse to come to Him.
>
THat's too easy.  I don't want to be with his father.

>It is written about Jesus that there is no other name given whereby men 
>must be saved.  How do you reconcile this with these many other spiritual 
>traditions?

I do not believe that salvation is possible or necessary.
>
>I guess I'm asking what do you mean by truth - do you see no contradictions
>between these spiritual traditions among themselves or with Christianity?
>
I do not believe that any spiritual tradition is Truth.

-- 
All propositions are true in some sense, false in some sense and
meaningless in some sense.  
                               --Hagbard Celine H.M. S.H.
<this is a signature virus, to spread it, just copy into your sig-file>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: An Unprovoked Act of Aggression. (wuz: Re: Luke, Derrida, etc.)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Dec13.133023.9516@ac.dal.ca>
Date: 14 Dec 1992 05:38:43 UTC

In article <1992Dec13.133023.9516@ac.dal.ca> 
hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <fWxE4Bo@quack.sac.ca.us>, 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>Hmm...I'm feeling cantankerous today. 
>>>M'sieu Harvey...
>>>Are you "enlightened" in the Buddhist sense of the term?  That is,
>>>have you discovered for yourself the truth of the Buddha's awakening?
>> The best have all been humbled, even the great Indra. I sir, am not as
>> enlightened as the best. Didn't I clear the land, and didn't I plant the
>> corn and didn't I work the fields? I am of the most ordinary, born from
>> the dust of the earth, earning my living from the dust of the earth, and
>> it is there that I shall return. We are not so different, you and I. We
>> are not the first, nor are we the last; a to z, alpha to omega, `aleph
>> to tav.
>I see. What is the difference between you and "the best?"

No greater than the difference between you and I.
But, these differences are all we have to cling to, are they not?

>>>If you would answer yes, I ask: How did you come to this conclusion (that
>>>you are "enlightened")?
>> How does one know he or she is enlightened?
>That's what I was wondering.

You know. I know you know you know.

>>>There is nothing outside the text. -- Usenet Survival Guide
>> But, there is everything *outside* the text. The letters come alive, a
>> to z.
>Sort of the "words made flesh," eh?

Ah - yep. But this sort of thing happens all the time ya know.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: An Unprovoked Act of Aggression. (wuz: Re: Luke, Derrida, etc.)
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Dec12.221949.9501@ac.dal.ca>
Date: 13 Dec 1992 09:27:21 UTC

In article <1992Dec12.221949.9501@ac.dal.ca> 
hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <fWv9IWP@quack.sac.ca.us>, 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>>> Aha! The perfect chance to present my Zen Koan [...]
>>>Why do I get the feeling you were just waiting for a chance like that? :)
>> Are you with me on this?	- R. Perot
>Hmm...I'm feeling cantankerous today. 
>M'sieu Harvey...
>Are you "enlightened" in the Buddhist sense of the term?  That is,
>have you discovered for yourself the truth of the Buddha's awakening?

The best have all been humbled, even the great Indra. I sir, am not as
enlightened as the best. Didn't I clear the land, and didn't I plant the
corn and didn't I work the fields? I am of the most ordinary, born from
the dust of the earth, earning my living from the dust of the earth, and
it is there that I shall return. We are not so different, you and I. We
are not the first, nor are we the last; a to z, alpha to omega, `aleph
to tav.

>If you would answer yes, I ask: How did you come to this conclusion (that you
>are "enlightened")?

How does one know he or she is enlightened? I stand here before you, at
least my words do. Why do you ask *me* this question? Is it *one* you
expect *me* to answer for *you*?

>If you would answer no, I ask: What makes you think you know what you're
>talking about?

I, of course, know exactly what *I'm* talking about. My knowledge of;
"worlds above and worlds below, no *one* in the world like me" gives me
this power, this self-assurance. I control the horizontal and the
vertical. I am not a number, I am a free man! Does my self-confidence 
make my words any more or less valuable to you? Why?

>Please note that I am not asking for a description of the undescribable
>or anything like that. This is a simple yes-or-no question about you.
>If you don't want to answer, of course, you don't have to. Still, I can't
>help thinking that there are more than a couple of Usenetters who would be
>interested to know where you're coming from, so to speak. 

And, have I not answered your questions, as you have asked of me?

>There is nothing outside the text. -- Usenet Survival Guide

But, there is everything *outside* the text. The letters come alive, a
to z.

Brothers and Sisters, I have great news
as I sit on my couch watching the news
I have received a rude awakening
I have marched until my feet have bleed
and I have protested until they called the feds
what's left my *conscious* said!
what's left my *conscious* said!
Go!
And still you want to live like nine-oh-two-one-oh while we scream out -
YO!
Let's talk about a revolution.
	- adaptation of AD/Revolution

Webster's II:
conscious [Lat. conscius, knowing with others : com-, together + scire,
to know]

What's left my >conscious< said!

If it don't come from the heart and the mind, stop throwing the peace
sign!	- Mista Tounge Twista

You bet your hat!	-R. Perot
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W)
Subject: Re: Satan Persecutes Mormons
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 07:43:00 GMT

In article <BzDwsy.KEF@acsu.buffalo.edu>, psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes...
>>In article <13DEC199214543291@acad3.alaska.edu> ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W) writes:
>>>The widespread persecution of Mormons is evidence that Jesus Christ did indeed
>>>organize the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and leads it today.
>>>
>>>Those who persecute Mormons do so because they are deceived by Satan.
>>>
>>>There are many humble followers of Christ outside the Mormon church.  They do
>>>not rail against the Mormon church.  Those who do are not humble followers of
>>>Christ.
>>>
>>>It's not real complicated.
>>>
> 
>Let me get this straight.
> 
>Those who were persecuted by the Danites, for instance, were real 
>followers of Christ, and those who `employed' the murdering, pillaging
>gangs of Danites were deceived by Satan.
> 
>Is this right?
> 
> 
>=============================
>Robert Weiss
>psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

This post from Robert Weiss is just one of many that demonstrate how
anti-Mormon religious bigotry can cause otherwise intelligent people to become
confused in their thinking.

From these posts one would suppose I had said that if a person or group were
persecuted, they must be true followers of Christ.  I said no such thing.
I said Mormons were persecuted because they were true followers of Jesus
Christ.  Anyone having difficulty comprehending the difference, needs to
learn some basic reasoning skills.

Saying that Mormons are persecuted because they are the "true" church of Jesus
Christ is not the same as saying that all who are persecuted are true
followers of Christ.

I can't imagine how any intelligent person could make such a mistake.
---------------
John W. Redelfs
ksjwr@acad1.alaska.edu

Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24324 alt.pagan:14450
From: lance@Circle.Raleigh.NC.US (Lance A. Brown)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Date: 21 Dec 92 05:00:31 GMT
Organization: The Full Circle BBS, Raleigh NC - DOS/Waffle 1.65

ivaliote@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Lotus ) writes:
> >Hm. Are you a follower of Judaism, by any chance. It certainly appears so,
> >from your posting.
> I am neither a follower of Judaism nor one of Christianity.  I have my own 
> definitions of things, and subscribe to no existing religion.  I also 
> don't give myself a name in the hopes of justifying myself, while in effect
> inviting ridicule.

I don't call myself 'pagan' to "justify myself".  I call myself pagan 
because it maps most closely to my belief structure.  It sure as Hel 
doesn't map to any other word easily.

Anyone who ridicules me for calling myself pagan just self-selects 
themselves out of the group of people I associate with regularly.

Lance

--
The Full Circle
 Domain: lance@circle.raleigh.nc.us (Lance A. Brown)  [ preferred ]
  Bangs: ...!wolves!circle!lance 
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24310 alt.pagan:14445