HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: The trouble with gurus
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:38:04 GMT

Francis Muir writes:
>My candidate for Most Pompous Ass among the self-appointed gurus would be
>Joseph Campbell.

Gosh, coulda fooled me.  I didn't know he was a guru.  Maybe guru-ness
is in the eyes of the beholder.  I have found Campbell's belated (it
sure took them a long time to discover him!) lionization by publishing
companies and TV-show producers to be most helpful to those of us who
have long wanted to see the images of the world's mythologies, but don't
have the cash to traipse all over the world visiting obscure museums and
knocking on the doors of reclusive archeologists.  Before Campbell's
unfinished (he died while working on it, and got five volumes completed)
_Historical_Atlas_of_World_Mythology_ came out, for example, I had only
seen drawings and poor photographs of the Venus of Laussel: Campbell
gives it a glorious 10" by 15" photo, beautifully lit so that shadows
pick out the details in the limestone.  Of his video efforts, I prefer
his lecture series to the Bill Moyers interviews--his storytelling style
is deliriously (one might even say maniacally) syncretic, the talks have
a lot of striking slides, and it's fun to watch his witty responses
to fundamentalist Christians in the audience.

Maria Gimbutas (_Language_of_the_Goddess_ and _Civilization_of_the_
_Goddess_) is another huge contribution to my own education in matters
mythological.  Between the two of them, they've put out enough gorgeous
images in large glossy paperbacks to keep me turning the pages and 
making sketches for many years to come.  If what's happened to Campbell
is that he's become a "guru," I hope someone will make a guru out of
Gimbutas as well.  Something about lolling on the sofa, taking notes
and doodling while watching an eccentric, funny, irreducibly individual
lecturer comment on ancient art--this is what video rental is *made* for.

				           		 --Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: james@brock.b17b.ingr.com (James Brock)
Subject: Re: Cormac McCarthy
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:19:12 GMT

In article <0ezdgh200WBNI2pn9V@andrew.cmu.edu>, dr3u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Daniel Read) writes:
|> Mujtaba Ghouse says:
|> 
|>     b) the original poster said that he had never seen an "inarguably 
|>        inappropriate word choice" by McCarthy.  The use of rebate is
|>        not inarguable, as this argument has shown.  In any case, the
|>        word "rebate" refers to the air, not the heat.
|> 
|> MY RESPONSE:
|> 
|> Nothing is unarguable, although some arguments are less convincing than
|> others.  Consequently, if we want to discuss Tom Maddox's obstreperous
|> claim we must treat it as if it didn't contain the hedge.  That doesn't
|> mean we can't argue about appropriateness, but only that the fact that
|> we CAN argue does not by itself end the argument.
|> 
|> I also found "rebate" to be an unusual word in that context, but I
|> usually assume that if I had the OED in front of me I would find a
|> plausible predecessor.
|> 
|> daniel
OH YOU SCION OF ENGLISH DICTION AND SYNTAX. I STRIVE TO BE ABLE TO REACH
SUCH HEIGHTS OF FANCY AND FACADE. IT IS THIS TYPE OF WRITING UP WITH
WHICH I OH SO LONG TO PUT. PLEASE ACCEPT ME AS A GROVELING APPRENTICE.
MAY I SHARPEN WITH MY HUMBLE TEETH YOUR PENCILS? MIGHT I MAKE WITH MY
DEGRADED HANDS YOUR MUSE-FUL COFFEE? 

Hey, I was thinking the other day about people like you, how
you think so hard about HOW you want to say what you want to say, and then
when you say it or write it it sounds as if it came out of a pompous robot.
Pity.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:19858 comp.internet.library:111
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.internet.library
Subject: Is there an online Internet Encyclopedia?
From: rsquires%cyclops.eece.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 21:51:05 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: huey.eeap.cwru.edu
Apparently-To: comp-internet-library@ftp.uu.net
Status: RO

Is there an online encyclopedia available for telnetting
somewhere?  I've used the America Online Encyclopedia,
and it was so juvenile and incomplete as to be useless.
If someone knows of one, this would be a great service...

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: ghouse@gauss.cs.jhu.edu (Mujtaba Ghouse)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cormac McCarthy
Date: 7 Nov 92 15:18:40 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD

lew@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (lewis.h.mammel..jr) writes:
>In article <!z+q_cf@lynx.unm.edu>, rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov4.032908.20635@netcom.com> tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>> >>Tom Maddox says:
>> >> 	I've never caught McCarthy in an inarguably inappropriate word
>> >>  choice.
>> 
>> Well, I'll stick my neck out and propose the following passage:
>> 
>> 	...Below them in the paling light smoldered the plains
>> 	of San Agustin stretching away to the northeast,
>> 	the earth floating off in a long curve silent under
>> 	looms of smoke from the underground coal deposits burning there
>> 	a thousand years.  
(stuff deleted)

>> 	goats and they rode with their faces averted from the rock
>> 	wall and the bakeoven air which it rebated, the slant black
>> 	shapes of the mounted men stenciled across the stone with a

(more stuff deleted)

>> I'm bothered with his use of 'rebated' here.  He appears to mean
>> 'reflected' or 'threw back,' but it just seems odd, since it is
>> the rocks themselves which are emitting (not reflecting) heat, 
>> though it is the hot air which is mentioned.  Anyway, no big 
>> deal, it is a nice passage.

>Well, the rocks absorbed the heat from the sun, then "rebated" it.
>They aren't just reflecting it. Pretty good, really. You could quibble
>that "rebate" has the sense of diminishing or muting, whereas the passage
>emphasizes the intensity of the heat. Of course, compared to the temperature
>of the solar surface from which the heat derives, it is diminished.

Two points:

    a) surely the passage implies that the heat comes from the coal fires
       burning beneath the surface?  

    b) the original poster said that he had never seen an "inarguably 
       inappropriate word choice" by McCarthy.  The use of rebate is
       not inarguable, as this argument has shown.  In any case, the
       word "rebate" refers to the air, not the heat.

-Mujtaba Ghouse

"Somewhere else, the tea is getting cold."
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:20122 soc.culture.soviet:9924
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Tsvetaeva mediocre?
Date: 15 Nov 92 07:14:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov15.021445.17456
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <Bxqqsu.9ux@cs.columbia.edu> igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich) writes:

>One fine point here: what if Akhmatova admired Mandelshtam? Than, again, 
>in my opinion, if you don't like Tsvetaeva, means that you don't understand her.
>I can't imagine how one can say "mediocre" about her: you may not like her,
>but if you understand anything in poetry, you have to admit her having a lot of 
>talent, anyway. For example, I don't like Modigliani. I don't understand him, 
>that's why. But I will never say he was a bad artist on the basis of that.
>And please excuse me for bringing myself as an example :-).

	I guess that all statements like "Tsvetaeva is mediocre" 
	or "She is not mediocre" speak only about people who 
	say so, not about Tsvetaeva: you need to say something
	substantional, not only your opinion. So this discussion
	is just one more argument about tastes. For me, the difficulty
	in appreciation of Tsvetaeva always was that she is
	too emotional and too strong as a person. This is
	why some (most) of her poetry is of doubtful taste,
	but this is why she can be so brilliant sometimes.
	
	The people (like Denis Golosov) who do
	not value her high could be easily understood:
	it is not easy to cope with the overfilling emotions
	if you are taught that poetry is a fine art,
	not a diary of (to say it bluntly) an oversexed woman.
	
	Anyway, when she was not indulged in emotions
	(personally, I rather like when she was), she
	was able to write a perfect poetry in the usual
	sense (ie, the poetry as a fine art). Her translation
	from Lorca and Bodelaire are the best translations
	from these authors in whole Russian
	poetry. She is just like Esenin: you
	need some time to acquire the taste and
	some patience to disregard obvious flips.

	Misha.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Advice to the World Weary (was Re: The Eudaemonic Pie
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 04:43:39 GMT


cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
 
> Semi-Lunatic: someone who can defend a position without the need for
> petty insults.
 
Hmmmm.  Perhaps Tom Maddox owes Clayton an apology.  If a Semi-Lunatic
ia someone who can (1) defend a position and (2) do it without petty
insults, Clayton CAN'T be one.  From my point of view, he fails on
both counts.


Enough of this talk of Clayton -- it is that OTHER Cramer we want to find 
out about (except for MZ)
 
 
Mark
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: BOOK: Hollywood vs. America by Michael Medved
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:52:34 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Nov5.081803.417@genie.slhs.udel.edu>  
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
> In article <1992Nov4.180518.20115@cbnews.cb.att.com>  
pmd@cbnews.cb.att.com (Paul Dubuc) writes:
> }I only agree partially with this.  Seems to me that parents can't  
always
> }be enforcing the standards while "anything goes" in the larger  
society.
> }At some point, shouldn't we be able to trust others not to sell  
beer
> }and cigarettes to our kids, or to rent X-rated videos to them, or  
admit
> }them to "topless" bars?  We make laws to enforce standards like  
this.
> }Placing all responsibility in the hands of parents might be a good  
argument
> }against such laws.
> 
> If your goal is to raise your children where they won't be able to  
purchase
> those things, then you should contract with the sellers not to do  
so, or make
> some other peaceful arrangement.  These kinds of transactions don't  
violate
> anyone's rights, so coercion (legislation) isn't justifiable on  
liberal
> or libertarian grounds.
> 

It's already against the law to sell beer to kids or to admit
them into a topless bar.  Legislation IS justifiable, because
we're talking about kids here, not adults (where I'd agree that
legislation is not justifiable).  Kids are not adults: they
don't have the experience to make certain kinds of informed 
judgements. Thus, most societies create laws to keep children
from engaging in certain kinds of activities (drinking, for
example) until they are old enough to be able to make these
judgements.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.horror
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: More 'salems Lot Bashing!
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 09:30:52 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Followup-To: poster

In article <1992Nov8.025147.8191@muddcs.claremont.edu> egross@jarthur.claremont.edu (Erik Maynard Gross) writes:
>
>	I think it's important not to confuse King's methods with those of 
>other famous vampire authors.  Specifically, Stokers "Dracula", and Rice's
>	Instead of trying to rehash Dracula, I think he's trying to create
>a kind of morbid "our town".  
>	In this sense, it IS like a soap opera or sitcom, because it's about
>people, not vampires.
>

	This is the message I have received from a few people now, and
	I'll just accept it.  Also, I am willing to read one
	more King novel, and am soliciting recommendations for *1* book.
	I've gotten votes for _The Shining_, _Dark Tower_, and
	some others from Mr. Wilson and Ms. Loveless which I've forgotten :)
	Email please.  Because of the movie, I'd rather not read Shining.

>
>					-Erik

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Arthur Rimbaud, is that you again??
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:49:59 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

COMEDY IN THREE CARESSES

She hadn't much left on, and the big trees,
With no discretion, swished
Their leaves over the window pane
Teasingly, so near, so near.

Half naked in my big chair,
She put her hands together
And her little toes tickled the floor,
Quivering comfortably, and so small.

I watched a little sprouting flush,
The color of wax, flutter
Like a smile over her neat breasts;
Fly on a rose bush.

I kissed her traced ankles
And she smiled a longish smile, bad sign
That shattered out into clear trills,
Crystalline.

Her little feet scampered under her shift:
"Will you _stop_ now!!"
After the first permitted boldness,
The smile pretending coldness?

Her poor eyelids fluttered under my lips
As I kissed her eyes
And she threw back her weakling head:
"That's better now", she said.

"But I have something still to..."
I chucked the rest between her breasts
In a caress that brought a kindly smile,
Benevolence, all of it.

She hadn't much left on, and the big trees
Swished their leaves over the window pane
At ease, teasingly, and so near.


(Another Ezra Pound translation)

-- 
Marko Amnell
amnell@klaava.helsinki.fi
Graduate Student in Philosophy
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Advice to the World Weary (was Re: The Eudaemonic Pie
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:29:32 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Nov3.223058.7794@klaava.Helsinki.FI> amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell) writes:
>In article <9211031604.AA00642@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com
>(Mark Taranto) writes:

>  We may have to send shiela to Finland, to spread the good word about
>>how to avoid world-weariness.

>Sheila?  Is she sexy?  Have her e-mail me so I can give her directions:
>West of Moscow, East of Eden.

Sexy? ... All we know is that she can drive a person to distraction, like
any other stark raving saney. Maybe it's the "stark" part that
supplies a clue?


-- 
"Every passion borders on the chaotic, but the collector's passion
borders on the chaos of memories" 
                                                -- Walter Benjamin
 ...!cs.utexas.edu!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!jzimm
From: warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: re: Torturing Politicals
Date: 9 Nov 92 12:17:14 GMT
	<1992Nov5.222809.10131@grebyn.com> <1992Nov6.052908.29199@eff.org>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: mnemonic@eff.org's message of 6 Nov 92 05:29:08 GMT

>>There are things that can't be laughed at?  Topics that contain no
>>raw material for humor?  Like what?
> 
> Torturing political prisoners to death. To name one thing.

Definitely not funny.

Other topics not suitable for humourous treatment:

  Rape
  Incest
  Hitler
  Cannibalism
  Genghis Khan
  The Spanish Inquisition
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Erofeev-Aleshkovsky-Celine
Date: 10 Nov 92 03:25:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov9.222509.17283
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In his article  bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:
> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:

>>I think Tsvetaeva put it best "If you only knew from what rubbish poetry 
>>springs!" 

>Isn't it Akhmatova lines?

Yep. The original verse sounds like

	If you only knew from what rubbish
	The poetry springs, without shame,
	As dandelions at the wedge,
	As burdock and hogweed.

(the lame translation is mine). This was written ~ 1952
and dedicated to Tsvetaeva's memory.

I was always wondering why people always confuse Tsvetaeva and
Akhmatova? There are no more dissimilar poets in the 
world! (Asides from gender, of course).

Misha.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Advice to the World Weary (was Re: The Eudaemonic Pie
Organization: Clark University
Date: 6 NOV 92 00:55:19 GMT

joan@med.unc.edu (Joan Shields) writes:

>>Women sometimes forgive those who force an opportunity, never those 
>>who miss it. 
>>       --Talleyrand 
> 
>Very true. 

Do you really think so?  Then you must have even less tolerance for the
concept of "date-rape" than I and Camille Paglia have.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: The trouble with gurus
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:39:33 GMT

In article <1dohkcINNoj5@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>John MacCarthy writes:
>
>	The trouble with gurus is that their writings are not refereed, 
>	and this makes them intellectually self-indulgent.
>
>MacCarthy is right on ther money here, and may have provided the makings 
>of an interesting new thread. Their name is Legion, of course, but my
>candidate for Most Pompous Ass among the self-appointed gurus would be
>Joseph Campbell.
>						Fido


But Gurus are Infallible.  You can't Referee the Infallible.

[ Don't Blame me for the Milnesque Typography, blame Fido.  He Started It,
  and did use the Real Middle Name in Edward Bear's More Famous Alias.
  Too bad we can't include any EH Shephard illustrations here, eh Fido? 
  By the way, what's it going to be after the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet?
  What of Tigger and Kanga and Roo and the rest?  I bet, though, that they'll
  forget about poor Eeyore.  
]

Okay, Most Pompous Ass goes to Campbell.  I vote the Mumbler award go
to the late Allan Bloom.  I bet that's the main reason he won so many
of the arguments he said he had with students.  It's hard to refute
"Mumble mumble".  And he had mastered the art of managing to mumbling even
when speaking fairly loud!

A remarkably nesci person too he was. ("Nesci" is a late Latin coinage I 
borrow from an Italian sports commentator because the more descriptive "Know 
Nothing" is already taken.  I don't mean "ignorant" but rather the active
desire not to know about something.)  Even McCarthy's article "Western
Sandwich, World Sandwich"  displayed far less nescience -- he did confess
having learned a lot of new things -- about some other cultures and histories
than Bloom did.   I attended this talk, Mumble actually, by Bloom where
he said the usual things about there being no non-Western literature, 
only to be met with a torrent of "But what about Indian and Japanese and ...?" 
To which, he answered that he, of course, excluded these rich heritages
from what he meant by non-Western.  "But,..<mumble,mumble>",  he'd go on,
opening his mouth wide enough not only to change feet but to let others
put their feet into it as well.



--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Truth According to Mickie Medved
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:42:36 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dep't., U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
In-reply-to: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com's message of 06 Nov 92 12:24:01 -0400

In article <1992Nov6.162401.17124@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.052908.29199@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike
>Godwin) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov5.222809.10131@grebyn.com> fi@grebyn.com (Fiona
>>Webster) writes:
>> 
>> >There are things that can't be laughed at?  Topics that contain no
>> >raw material for humor?  Like what?
>> 
>> Torturing political prisoners to death. To name one thing.
>
>What about Woody Allen's Bananas where they use rock music to
>wear down a prisoner, and consider "bringing out the Leroy Neiman
>paintings" as the coup de grace?

. . . or the now-legendary scene in "Top Secret" in which Val Kilmer's
character passes out during torture (by East Germans dressed as Nazis,
no less) to dream that he is back in school.  He returns to conscious-
ness, deeply relieved that he is not back in school, after all, but
merely being tortured by East Germans.  

You may not find it funny, but to *refuse* to find it funny, due
solely to the subject matter, is the mark of a truly humorless man.
All humor above the level of knock-knock jokes is based on the
misfortune of others (or, sometimes, of ourselves).  There are a
number of theories about this, but I'll spare you.
--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: GENIUS:Life/Science of Richard Feynman
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 15:55:58 GMT

In article <1dpvuaINNrh7@agate.berkeley.edu>, peterme@ocf.berkeley.edu (Peter Merholz) writes...

>While I basically liked it (who couldn't?
>it's about Feynman's life), I was disappointed by the meaningful neglect of
>material in SURELY YOU'RE JOKING and WHAT DO YOU CARE. I know that Gleick
>probably felt that anybody who's gonna read his book will have already
>read those two books, and so maybe he didn't want to tread on old ground,

One of the problems Gleick faced is that some of the stories Feynman tells
seem to promote the myth of Feynman, but don't reveal the man, and also
there is a question as to some of their accuracy.

Meanwhile, I'm just in the middle of this book, and when I read in your
note that he is the "late theoretical physicist", you ruined the ending
for me!

Just kidding.
Ron
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken)
Subject:  Accuracy in autobiography (was: GENIUS: Richard Feynman)
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:07:54 GMT

chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe) writes:
>Who cares about accuracy? We're talking about Higher Truth here.  

I feel the same way about Lillian Hellman's memoirs _Pentimento_ and
_An Unfinished Woman_.  I found them to be very moving when I read
them.  Five or so years later when the movie _Julia_ came out, there
was a great deal of publicity saying that many of the anecdotes in the
books were untrue.  Somehow this made very little difference to me; I
thought they were magnificent books and didn't care whether they were
fact or fiction.

I think that Gleick's book performs a useful service by demystifying
Feynman's life.  As a physicist, I especially appreciated reading how
filled with doubts about his talents Feynman was throughout his
career.  Undoubtedly all his humorous tales were to cover up his
essential insecurity.  Having said all this, I feel the same way about
Feynman's two autobiographical works that I felt about Hellman's: that
the strict veracity of these books is irrelevant to their enjoyment.
-- 
Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
Look if you like, but you will have to leap.