From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Still Waiting For Your Views On The Turkish Genocide, 'Milanini.'
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:27:00 GMT


<1992Apr14.041733.3537@microsoft.com>
marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc MILANINI)

>I fail to see why you crossposted this pearl of wisdom to soc.cuture.german
>and soc.culture.greek. 

If you don't see the answer then you must indeed be suffering from a 
severe case of amnesia. By the way, it is 'culture,' not 'cuture.'

>Why don't you crosspost to rec.humor 
>and alt.slack, so that even more people are entertained ?
>Maybe you are paid according to the amount of bandwith you consume ?

Sorry for not posting it to your 'head.' By the way, it is not 'bandwith.' 
Are you high on something, 'Milanini.'

>Wait a minute. Are you really hasan B-) mutlu ? Why did you change
>your E-mail address ? Maybe your previous one was getting too hot.

Perhaps, your eyes were getting too 'hot.'

>BTW, what happened to Ahmet Cosar ? Did you erase his macros ?

Visiting 'Milan-ini?'

>>Your ignorance simply cramps my conversation, 'Milanini.'

>I wish it really would. Apparently I am not ignorant enough.

Please don't underestimate your ignorance level.

>>Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
>>        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.
>>
>>This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

>It must have been pretty hard to read, eh ?

Not at all. I am surprised you weren't offended by this, too.

>>a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
>>the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most 
>>respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional 
>>Republic in Berlin during World War II; 

>Why don't you quote this passage ? It is not the waste of bandwith
>that has deterred you, is it ? I would really like to see, just for
>once, a source for the 2.5M dead Turks you keep shouting everywhere.

No wonder you are in such a deep 'mud,' 'Milanini.' Where should I 
begin? I do have a copy of a demographic history on the question of 
the numbers which was published by a major American university press, 
that of New York University, copyright 1983. Its author, Prof. Justin 
McCarthy, is chairman of the history department at the University of 
Louisville in Kentucky, and a scholar whose expertise in this subject is 
so universally recognized by his peers that he was chosen to write the 
entry on 'demography' in the major reference work in the field of 
Middle Eastern studies, "The Encyclopedia of Islam." Nor has his 
expertise been ignored by the U.S. Government. Professor McCarthy holds 
perhaps the unique honor of having held a National Science Foundation 
'national needs post-doctoral fellowship in demography' and a National 
Endowment for the Humanities 'senior fellow' grant in history. 
Now, here are your homework problems for this week.

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of 
Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Table 7.10 "Muslim Deaths 1912-22"
Table 7.11 "Projected and Actual Muslim Populations, 1922"

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
        1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
        1967, p. 13.

>>b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
>>theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
>>of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 
>>
>>c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves
>>with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 
>>
>>d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side 
>>by side with the Wehrmacht.

>There have been 75 000 French people serving in the German Army during
>WWII. There have been collaborators in France while this country
>was occupied. This does not make the entire French people responsible
>for it.

Oman. These European Dashnags, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed 
to, and bargained with Hitler's emissaries for an 'independent'
Armenian state. That they had to bootlick Nazi masters goes without
saying. That, as potential officials of a puppet Nazi state, they
would have assumed the infamous roles of the Paveliches, Antonescus,
Lavals, Tisos or Vidkun Quislings was also a foregone conclusion.
Once committed to it, there was no alternative to the price for
'independence' except subservience to Hitler.

The Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as 
follows:[1]

"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
 when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it 
 becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
 method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
 operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing." 

In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the 
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party 
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by 
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Turks by colluding with the invading Russian army.

Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.

 "Members of our family witnessed the murder of 148 members of our 
  family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying 
  anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim. Armenians should 
  look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors 
  perpetrated upon their neighbors...Armenians were in league with Hitler 
  in the last war, on his premise to grant them self government if, in 
  return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also 
  hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian 
  Communists. Mr. Amarian!"

  Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.

[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
    Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
    June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.

>BTW, can you explain us (since you are so knowlegeable on this
>subject) why there were so many Armenians in Europe at that time ?
>Still today, there are 1M Armenians in France alone. How come ?

Can you explain us why there are so many Turks in Europe today?
Still today, there are 2M Turks in Germany alone. How come?
Would you live in Soviet Union?

>Could it be that they fled Turkey because they were killed there ?

Let us see - shall we?

Source #1: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

"While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
 pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
 against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
 their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
 have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
 govern or handle other races under their power."

Source #2: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

"that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and 
 fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
 least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

>No, of course, you are going to find another explanation.

Only facts count, 'Milanini.' Armenian revolutionary groups such as 
Dashnaks, who even today claim to be the true representatives of the 
Armenian people, unquestionably ordered the deaths of 2.5 million 
Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia. 

As Admiral Bristol wrote:

 "As long ago as last July, I reported officially to the Department that there
 were strong Bolshevik feelings amongst the Armenians and that many of the Army
 officers were Bolshevik in sentiment. I stated then it was only a question
 of time when Armenia would go Bolshevik. Armenia did turn Bolshevik and was
 not compelled to do so by the Russians."

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
 pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars."

 "By massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes; and finally
 by starting an attack against the Turks which resulted in a counter attack
 by the Turks, and then the Armenians deserted and ran away."

> [mixture of real facts and mutlu-nacies deleted]

Too bad.

>Nobody denies that there have been Armenians in the German Army.
>Nobody denies that some Armenians have collaborated. But you
>have failed in proving that the entire Armenian people was in
>favour of Nazism. Not because you did not provide any valuable
>reference, but because what you intended to prove is simply
>not true. Just for the record, there have been Armenians in
>the Soviet Army too.

Let us see - shall we?

In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus.
A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order 

"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the 
 spirit of the Nazi ideas."

He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
    Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
    Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.

The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any 
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1] 

A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August 
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.

>>What is your problem with the 'Ottoman Archives,' 'Milanini?'
>>After all, it is called 'The Turkish Genocide.'

>Mr Mutlu, if today I doctored a message like this one:
>---begin---hypothetic message---
>I confess that I am in fact an Armenian, and that my sole
>purpose was to make fun of the Turkish people.
>Hasan B-) Mutlu
>--end---

>How many people would believe me ? 

The members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle?

>Would it be valid evidence ?

What do you think?

Source: (Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal
        ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra 
        (Istanbul, 1916).
Source: (Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti);  Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi,
        V. I (Istanbul, 1914), V. II (Istanbul, 1915), V. III (Istanbul, 1916)
        V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
Source: (Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); (Muhacirin Mudiriyet-i Umumiyesi);
        Cemiyet-i Akvam ve Turkiye'de Ermeni ve Rumlar (Istanbul, 1921).
Source: (Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin 
        Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname (Istanbul, 1915).
Source: (Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
        Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat  Malumat (Istanbul 1919).
Source: Ali Saip, "Kilikya Facialari ve Urfa'nin Kurtulusu Mucadeleleri" 
        (Ankara, 1924).
Source: A. R. Altinay, "Iki Komite - Iki Kital" (Istanbul, 1919).
Source: A. R. Altinay, "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler" 
        (Istanbul, 1919).
Source: Hocaoglu, M., "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve
        Ermeniler" (Istanbul, 1976).

>>I just did. Leading the first Armenian units who crossed the Ottoman 

>Mr Mutlu. Do you know what a referred review is ? If yes, can you read ?

Hey 'Milanini,' if skill could be gained by watching, every dog would 
become a butcher.

>>Is this the joke of the week?

>You should update your replies. This one is really worn out.

Your worthless opinion. Hardly fact, hardly useful.

>If you want me to tell you that the French government wanted to
>prevent the Turkish secret services to kill Garabedian in prison,
>you will be disappointed.

Who are you to believe? 

>>Nazi Armenians were behind it, as well.

>And Lucrece Borgia too, no ?

I would say 'Nazi Armenian Karekin Nejdeh.'

>>Boyadjian, Dro, Antranik, Silikian and Papazian were enough in 1914.

>Five guys for an event that never happened. Those Armenians had
>better improve their productivity.

Hmm. Let the Armenians speak for themselves.

Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The 
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

p. 52 (second paragraph).

"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
 of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged 
 massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
 intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
 on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
 few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
 Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
 destruction of 300 villages."

p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
 and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
 hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."

"...it is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
 during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
 the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
 official charges of massacres."

>>Any more corrections? Nope?

>One right out of two. 50 % . Not so bad. You should review your
>articles before you send them. 

See 'Milanini' make a fool of himself in the current discussion (yet
again.)

>Of course, you would have to decrease
>your pace of posting then.

A joke?

>>If that is the only argument you have with the article, then why even
>>bother? 

>It is not my argument, it is yours. You said that Hagopian was 
>in a French prison. Once again, if you reviewed your articles,
>you would avoid to contradict yourself.

Where is your verifiable evidence? You are so norrow-minded you 
could see through a keyhole with both eyes.

>>>Probably you think that Conan the Barbarian is Armenian too ?
>>
>>Have you lost your 'rabbit?'

>Have you lost your sense of humor ? Have you ever had one ?

Your sense of humor is probably the main reason why you are in
such a mess. 

>>Hasan B-) Mutlu

>Now I am reassured. I was not sure it was you.

Hit a brick wall?

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)