From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:48:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.160512.14104@sarah.albany.edu> pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.151241.25502@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep19.131854.769@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

>>>In article <1992Sep18.180604.17805@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>[...]

>>>Cetainly there were many signs of assimiliation of Jews within
>>>thhhhhhhhhe rest of society in prewar Poland. What I was told and what I was
>>>stressing was that despite several signs of assimiliation there
>>>was still strong tendency among Jews to be separately organized.

>>Was it their doing entirely, or were there also obstacles to assimilation
>>placed in their way?

>[...]

>  It is not appropriate to treat Jews as a uniform group and ask what
>did they think about assimilation.  As far as Orthodox Jews in pre-IIWW
>Poland are concerned their stand was quite clear - assimilation was
>to be avoided.  The problem of inter-marriages illustrates this
>problem the best: Jews were explicitely prohibited to marry Christians.

Why do you call it a problem?  8-)

>For a Christian to marry a Jew was a good think to do as long as
>partner was baptized.

And, vice-versa, it was OK for a Jew to marry a convert to Judaism.
Jews, however, do not generally allow conversion for the *purpose*
of marriage, which makes a certain amount of sense, given the amount
of commitment it takes to live a piously Jewish life.

>  This problem was relevant only for religious people and it is not clear
>to me whether assimilation has to mean a change of religion.

As an expert on the subject (i.e., the descendant of several generations
of assimilated Jews, some of them from Poland), I can categorically
say: no.  My great-grandfather was quite assimilated, and was both 
a leading lawyer in his town (serving all kinds of people) and the 
president of the synagogue.  He resigned that post after his daughter
married a Gentile, but remained highly respected in the community/
communities.

>  The same is true about the participation in culture: both cultures
>(Jewish and Polish) were strongly rooted in their respective religions,
>thus full participation in the culture meant to large extent accepting
>the religious tradition (even without accepting the actual beliefs).

Not in urban life in the 20th century.  Educated citizens of Warsaw
were quite able to get along with one another on a basis unrelated to
church.  There was the opera house, the coffee house, the place of
business, and plenty of other secular crossroads.

>One has to understand the difference between traditional, national
>cultures and contemporary secular pop-cultures (as for example US culture
>to large extent).

And, to a pretty large extent, urban culture back then, too.  Religion
faded among the bourgeoisie all throughout the 19th century; this was true
most obviously in Western Europe, but also elsewhere.  Secular culture,
based to a great extent on music and art and commerce, replaced religion
to some extent.  Once Jews were allowed by law to break out of the ghetto
and take part in the new public culture, many of them did.

>  If you think about the assimilation as a participation in economical
>life of the country there were NO FORMAL obstacles for Jews in pre-IIWW
>Poland. 

But, as we have read, licensing boards and similar gateways became closed
to Jews in the 1930's, and de facto discrimination in the universities
was also heavy.

> Again, you were free to chose your buisness partners
>and for both sides it was often seen as a discrimination (for example
>in Warsaw's stock market German was spoken until 1923).

I don't follow the point of this example....

>  The best way to study Jewish attitude approach to the assimilation
>probelm is to study the political platforms of Jewish parties
>in pre-39 Poland.  I am not well prepared to go into details now
>but you can believe me that they were by no means unanimous.

"Two Jews, three opinions."  This is news?  8-)

Roger