From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Date: 25 Jul 92 17:31:18 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <19584@optima.cs.arizona.edu> gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
>
> Nice to see you too Jerray...

Sorry I can't say the same.

> I was born with an attitude pal and it ain't goona leave because you don't 
>like it...

Which is basically go argue by flailing your arms everywhere and accusing
people of murder without understanding anything.  In addition, be insulting
and condescending...the best way to get people to listen to you without
starting a fight...

>Actually, it isn't clear to me that you have the least idea what you
>yourself say but that's another issue...

Perhaps this has some truth to it.  Which is why I posted and asked for
rational answers.  Not some ass who decides his view is right by a divine
act, and then proceeds to be belligerent about it.

> Let's see - you said "I don't buy this "cultural bias stuff"" right? Now
>tell me what that sounds like to you Jerray...

Look at your mistake you shithead.  When I talked about advantages and
disadvantages for different people, obviously that's a huge cultural bias.
My question is, what exactly does it mean?  I think no matter what, just
about everything turns into a cultural bias.  In order to get into schools,
each university sets their own cultural bias.  In order to get jobs, each
employer does the same.  Who are they to judge who gets the jobs and who gets
accepted?  Quotas exaggerate this even more.  If they say they want X number
of so and so people, it's another bias as well.

I suppose at the root of all the chaos, schools want to pick the most
intelligent people right?  100 applications, 50 spots, they're going to pick
out their best guesses for who they want.  Well who are they to guess?  And
who are they to develop methods for guessing?  How can you say one person is
more intelligent (if that happens to be what they want) because he can add
faster?

I've come to the semi-conclusion (which you may not like at all), that it
doesn't really matter.  Culturally biased SATs are here to stay because there
is no way of getting rid of the bias.  It's even a bias to judge on a basis
of a test right?  Maybe you're brilliant verbalizing, but you choke on paper
isn't that a bias?

> What does that have to do with whether or not a bias exists in the tests?

What it has to do is that the test is the best approximation some people have
come up with to match the bias that society has on itself.  Colleges want
people with certain skills, and obviously people have different advantages
and disadvantages from the moment they were born and even before.

> Again Jerray, "propper" to whom? To you? To me? I can guarantee that the 
>English I use is a bit off norm - what about those who come from a much 
>different background?

I suppose there is no norm.  Certainly I'm not going to say that anyone's
English is perfect at all.  But proper is defined by those people who are
in power.  Who decide who gets into schools and who gets jobs.  How is that
going to change?  Everyone thinks that we want everything to be as fair as
possible, but even if everyone gets into colleges, aren't we subject to what
people think is an education?  Who says algebra is more important than
learning how to stay away from stray gunfire?
>
> Right - they intend a bias and if you do not respond with their bias then
>you can expect to pay for it - so I guess we agree....
>
> The point is not whether or not employers or schools take the cultural
>differences to heart- the point is that they exist and bozos like you insist on trying to ignore them rather than recognize them and question the validity
>of them - but thats OK - I've seen your "logic" before when it comes to
>racial issues...

So tell me oh wise one.  How would you cure the ills of the world?  I don't
choose to ignore it, but I can't see a solution.  It's kind of like the law,
some people actually make it up.  What if we think something is utterly stupid?
I guess we have to stay within societal rules eh?

And even if we try to solve it...ie. all those programs to help the poor, etc.
isn't society always teaching those people how to act "properly" in their
view?  I remember the best quote from the movie Cry Freedom was about you
know, the sparse efforts by the white minority to "help" the black majority.
The help was so that blacks could speak like whites, learn like whites,
and maybe if they're lucky, work a white job in the white city.  Steve Biko
(Denzel Washington's character) was saying, "You believe your way/culture is
better, but the real genius is that you got us to believe it as well." and
lose our own culture and identity so to speak...

But instead of this tangent, respond to the first question I asked.  I said
that I thought Prop 48 was totally useless.  Say we assume the SAT is useful
in predicting success in college.  The 700 score on it is so below average,
passing it means nothing doesn't it?  Say we assume the SAT is so biased
that it doesn't mean anything.  Then it keeps athletes who have a chance at
being stars, out of the spotlight.  So what does it do?  I can't see a purpose.
>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college