HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET (Robert Haskins)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:59:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: UMAB.92287.135957RHASKINS
 <1992Oct12.132044.8442@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> <Bw0JEM.IHt@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore

> From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
> Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:39:58 GMT
>
> In article <1992Oct12.132044.8442@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> fernande@cps.msu.edu
(Jose Roberto Fernandez) writes:
> >One of the greatest abuses to me is the (over)use of Gershwin's Rhapsody
> >in Blue in the United Airlines commercials.  Hearing it over and over
> >(in short excerpt form) has seriously harmed my enjoyment of that piece.
>
I don't know; I have exactly the opposite feeling -- I became a bigger
fan of "Rhapsody in Blue" _after_ hearing it constantly on the commercials!
The reason -- that melody _really_ holds up after repeated playings to
advertise for that tired old airline.  However, I thought the parrot
plinking it out on the piano was carrying it to far.  Besides, the
parrot didn't have the proper nuance! ;-)

Bob
From: jqdoumen@vub.ac.be (Doumen Jan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Free online data-bases available ?
Date: 14 Oct 1992 16:49:13 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Hi,
I'm new to this news group about classical music. I have a question to ask
which I didn't find  in the FAQ.
Is there anywhere an online database available, preferable for free, which
contains information about recordings ? Somewhat similar to Archie but
for recordings, where you can put in an entry to see if one or another
recording has ever been made ?
What are the possibilties regarding classical music on the net ? Besides
this newsgroup, and the guide for starting a collection of CD's, there
must be other information available ?

Thanks in advance.

DeJean.

--
/=============================================================================\
| Doumen Jan                                Voice : 32 2 3590209              |
| Vrije Universiteit Brussel                Fax   : 32 2 3590390              |
| Instituut Voor Moleculaire Biologie                                         |
| Department For Ultra-structure         Internet : jqdoumen@vub.ac.be        |
| B - 1640 Sint-Genesius-Rode                     : jdoumen@nyx.cs.du.edu     |
| Belgium                             EARN/BITNET : jqdoumen@BBRBFU60.BITNET  |
\=============================================================================/
From: Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:28:28 GMT
 <98512@bu.edu>  <1992Oct13.202544.18627@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

On the issue of Glass it always wonderful to see people embrace
modernity for modernity's sake. However I like WIlliams, Morricone but
Glass is just an also-ran in the twentieth century. For those who
prefer to listen to boring music on occasion then you've found a
perfect man in Glass. Good music still has a duty to the common people.
Its not the people that are turning away from classical music its the
fact that Glass et al. are FORCING them away in droves with this
derivative noise. Great operas meet both the emotional and
entertainment aspects in people Glass does neither.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: address of musical institutions in Europe sought
From: Marco Simionato <simion@iveuncc.unive.it>
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:57:13 +0100
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Venezia (Italy)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9X-XXDate: Fri, 9 Oct 92 18:00:40 GMTLines: 5

I would be grateful if I could have the address and phone/fax numbers
of Europe's most relevant musical institutions and festivals.
I want to contact them to get the programmes for this season.

Please reply directly, thanks.
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:47:01 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct16.035036.7639@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>In article <1992Oct16.025516.2821@Princeton.EDU>
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> >And much, much different results. 

>> True of Josquin and Monteverdi, Beethoven and Bartok.  You got a point here
>> somewhere?

>If for the sake of sarcasm you replied in that manner then ignore this
>response. However if you didn't then I meant different in terms of
>quality of achievement. 

And I meant that it was pointless to compare the achievements of 
composers who wrote different kinds of music for different audiences
with different expectations in different centuries on different 
continents while pretending that there's some universal yardstick for 
measuring compositional greatness.

>Next please cite me an example of a conscious
>change in Verdi's musical style (Don't even try Aida-Otello) 

[Could you at least include *some* of the text you're responding to,
so that people can tell what you're talking about?  Thanks.]

I'd say that the change after the Big Three of the 50's was more than
just one more step in a steady evolution.  Moving toward grand opera
was definitely a decision Verdi made in the choice of his libretti,
etc.

>Are use
>also saying the motives for the change in Wagner (Which I still believe
>are purely the result of his genius) SInce when is a study of Wagner's
>writing definitive proof of his intent (more likely than not is was the
>exact opposite)

Come again?  

And, yes, there *were* motives for Wagner's change, not least his
reading of Schopenhauer and the consequent reworking of his entire
philosophy of drama.  Here his writings are an obvious guide to what's 
going on, along with plenty of testimony by others, and the evidence
of Tristan and so on.  

>Anyway I didn't mean to impugn changes of style. Deliberate style
>change itself is not something bad IF its for purely artistic reasons
>however if its because the first style gets bad press...

Yes, go on...  (see Die Feen, das Liebesverbot, Rienzi, etc.)

Seriously--since you're still trying to hang this around Glass's neck,
perhaps you could provide us with a shred of evidence.  It's not as 
though we hadn't asked.

Roger
From: RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET (Robert Haskins)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:26:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: UMAB.92289.142652RHASKINS
 <98512@bu.edu>  <1992Oct13.202544.18627@Princeton.EDU>
 <1992Oct13.212828.24507@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore


        Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
> Glass is just an also-ran in the twentieth century. For those who
> prefer to listen to boring music on occasion then you've found a
> perfect man in Glass. Good music still has a duty to the common people.

You say potayto, I say potahto.  Almost every composer I thought was boring
once -- a list which includes (to my chagrin) Monteverdi and Mahler -- is a
composer I'll listen to regularly if not religiously.  I'm rather of the
opinion listeners who find composers boring aren't trying hard enough, or
don't have enough experience with other kinds of music _to_ try hard
enough.  If this sounds like a personal attack, it's not meant that way.
I'm just musing about myself.

There's been maybe one or two composers whose music I found very interesting
from the very moment I first heard it.  The others take some getting used to.
I've never found a composer's music unworthy of the effort (when I decide to
_take_ the effort, that is!). :-)

Bob
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: EMI price increase
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:02:46 GMT

In article <Bw0nuF.926@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>In article <92283.135948MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:
>
>>My local classical CD supplier said that he has been informed from EMI that
>>they plan to increase their per CD prices by $2.  That takes some nerve in
>>this day of dropping costs of CD production.
>
>Think it through, please: the costs of pressing the silver disk itself
>are the tiniest part of the expense that the recording needs to earn
>back.  What about
>
>Hiring the hall or studio
>Hiring the orchestra
>Renting the music (if not public domain, owned by the orch)
>Paying the conductor and soloists
>Paying the engineer, producer, editors
>Paying someone to write notes or do a translation
>Paying support staff for all of the above
>Doing publicity
>Etc.?

Of all these costs, the ones that are going up the fastest are probably
the artists (some on this newsgroup write liner notes, they could tell
us if their earnings have gone up recently...).
This may be a variant of the "performing arts disease": the basic fact is
that it takes as many qualified people to play a quartet today as 200
years ago. In most economic activities, we have gone through labor-saving
technological change, and capital accumulation which makes capital 
relatively cheaper.  for music, on the contrary, we insist that the 
same technology be used (even the same instruments): a larger share of
the costs will be remuneration of labor, and as incomes go up, the
relative price of opera tickets and CDs will go up.

>
>If a company has sunk $500,000 or so into a recording, the only way they
>can earn it back is by their X% of each copy sold.  Given the way such
>expenses keep going up, one could make a case that CDs cost too LITTLE
>in this country (they cost significantly more in Europe).  

I wouldn't go that far. Presumably the market in the US is competitive, but 
not to the point where DG competes with Philips with cut-throat price
discounts.  If CDs are more expensive in Europe (not only on average:
the same Harmonia Mundi CDs are a good 30% more in France), it is because
of taxes, and inefficient/monopolistic distribution systems.

>A CD seems like a bargain.

Indeed.  Think of a CD as a perpetual investment: with a 10% discount rate, 
a $15 price tag for a CD is like paying $1.50 to rent that CD for 1 year.
I find that cheap, compared to, say, $6 for a movie I see only once,
or $2-3 to rent a video-cassette for 3 nights.
This line of reasoning is dangerous: it can lead to over-consumption of CDs...
From: eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:12:37 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
Reply-To: eijkhout@cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cupid.cs.utk.edu

In article <casseres-131092134223@kip2-23.apple.com>, casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:

|> But to take a slightly different slant, I have found it very rewarding to
|> listen to Bach's 6 cello suites in sequence, in one sitting.

A few weeks ago Yo-yo Ma played them all in sequence for a 
packed Concertgebouw. According to a friend who reported
this to me the applause afterwards beat anything he'd ever heard.

|> David Casseres

Victor.
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:06:19 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1992Oct13.202544.18627@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <98512@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>>Notice that I said ``with this SORT of reaction to new composers.'' 

>Still, I don't see any evidence of a trend right here...

Sure, not _here_ but rather at ticket booths where it matters.

>>My point was that if people are going to judge contemporary music
>>based on its _entertainment value_ then we'll be stuck with the
>>same old ``entertaining'' music. I'd rather be ``bored'' by something
>>new from time to time rather then continually ``entertained'' by
>>the same old music -- that's all.

>False dichotomy.  New things can entertain, too.

Not in the minds of audiences all over the country. Boulez has
to kill himself to get to play anything contemporary. The response 
to Glass is quite an exception. And in his case there are plenty of
people to say that it's boring and/or trivial.


> Opera is musical theatre,
>and theatre is aform of entertainment, among other things.  There's
>lots of good music in bad operas that nobody does --- because they
>don't work well on the stage, and don't ahve a theatrical effect.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that music is all there is to _opera_,
I was responding to complaints about new Glass _film_ music primarily...


Gregg


-- 
Gregg Jaeger    (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu)          VOTE PEROT  VOTE PEROT       
If you think the Republicans screwed up the country, can you afford to
see what the Democrats will do!   ->BEWARE OF SLICK-WILLY CLINTON!!<-
From: jwelsh@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Welsh)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: The History of the Cello on Record
Keywords: cello
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:21:56 GMT

This week's Time magazine says Pearl records has/will soon release a
six-CD set, The recorded cello: The history of the cello on record.
The review (10/12/92, page 91) made me zip around town, but no
record stores have it or knew anything about it. Has anyone heard
more about it, or heard _it_? It's probably more money than I make
in a week, so I'm shopping for opinions. Thanks!

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Re: Orchestras/conductors -- corrections
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:29:52 GMT

In article <22810021@hpgrla.gr.hp.com> rms@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Rick Scherer) writes:
>
>>N. Y. Philharmonic	Boulez
>
>Oops!  Masur is the new conductor of the N.Y. Phil.

Oops is right.  What a disaster.

>
>
>>---
>>Rick Scherer


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank)
Subject: Re: The Voyage
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:10:27 GMT

In article <1bevc7INNg4c@agate.berkeley.edu> demian@ocf.berkeley.edu (Demian) writes:
>
>Did anyone happen to catch Philip Glass's The Voyage on the Met broadcast, or
>saw the opera yesterday on Columbus Day?  What overall impression did you get 
>from this work?  
>It's the most contemporary opera I've heard, and I was really impressed by it.
>I was wondering if Glass's other operas are similar to this one?  I heard it
>over the radio so I couldn't see the set design.  Was it broadcasted on PBS in
>New York,  and if not, will it be on the tele in the future?   

As far as I know, it wasn't televised anywhere.  This is a major shame,
since, even more so than his portrait operas, The Voyage seemed to rely
a lot upon visuals (especially in making its humorous points).

Musically, there were some parts of it that truly impressed me (in 
particular, the soprano arias of Act I), and the writing tended much
less towards the "minimalist" than his other 3 operas, a lot of it
reminded me very directly of Satyagraha and, at times, Songs from the 
Liquid Days.  Definitely not as original or groundbreaking as was
Akhnaten.
--j.e.f.
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Date: 10 Oct 92 14:04:14
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Oct10.164252.12013@Princeton.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU's message of Sat, 10 Oct 1992 16:42:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.164252.12013@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

   One observation: the weird one in a set of six or 12 is usually placed last
   in 18th C music.  You can see this again and again: the 6th B'burg, almost
   certainly not *composed* last, is a sort of concerto-upside-down-cake,
   with accompaniment instruments soloing, solo instruments accompanying, 
   rtirnellos behaving like solos and vice versa.

While I agree that the viola was traditionally an accompaniment
instrument at the time, the rest of the instrumentation in that concerto
doesn't strike me as soloistic when played in ensemble.

The Pro Arte Chamber Orchestra played it as part of a concert entitled
"Look, ma, no violins!" last year.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write league@prep.ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Organization: Visual
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 18:38:16 GMT

Jon Conrad writes:

>I would disagree on that.  There will always be *some* loss in
>translation for performance, and if one is really a devoted student in
>the original language the loss must be major.  But the gains can also be
>considerable. 

I agree.  I remember an English-language performance of Don Giovanni that
charmed the daylights out of two high school students I'd brought to
see it, more or less on a whim.  These guys had no prior exposure to
opera but thought it was terrific -- the music, the story, the humor,
the terror.  

Surtitles are fine with me, too.

Rob
From: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: EMI price increase
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:49:58 GMT
Reply-To: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: bassclar

I don't mind (much) paying the higher prices for CDs from labels
such as Hyperion that produce excellent recordings of repertoire
that isn't likely to have a wide audience.  I'm willing to pay 
the difference because I'm grateful that for a recording exists at all
to benefit myself and the far-too-few others who (for example)
want to hear such things as early 19th century English songs.

I do, however, miss the golden age of budget classical LP labels
(mid-late 1960s through 1970s).  Some of the most unusual repertoire
available--from medieval to Vorisek to Joplin to Boulez--was priced
at $2.00 a disc.  I suppose the commercial formula worked because 
there was an audience ready to risk hearing anything new, as long as
the price wasn't much of a burden.

Elektra's Nonesuch label did it best, but all the other labels
had their gems too.  I wonder what changed economically to make this tier 
of price/adventure for recordings vanish?  The present budget CD
lines (such as Sony's Essential Classics or Naxos) are deep in good 
performances of major repertoire at cheap prices, but music from the fringes 
seems less available at impulse-buying prices than it was twenty years ago.

On the other hand, some of the music that was fringy at the time
(any of Haydn's first 80 symphonies, Josquin chansons, Carter string
quartets) have become part of a more diverse mainstream--a diversity
that can be credited somewhat to the efforts of these budget record
labels.


--James Langdell         jamesc@eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystem        Mountain View, Calif.
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:49:35 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct15.202525.12831@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>In article <1992Oct15.061918.19057@Princeton.EDU>
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> Does anyone care?  What kind of argument is that?  
>> "A composer's greatness is measured by the fact that his operas
>> are higher in quality each time."  Sorry, no.

>A great composer IMRPOVES his craft. 

You making the rules for great composers here?  Or what?  Every composer
has laid a few eggs; especially those who not only try to improve their 
craft but go beyond nice craft to transforming their art.  Schubert's
and Schumann's operas, even a few of Verdi's, and lots of other pieces
by other composers fall into this category.  Is _Esther_ better than
_Teseo_?   

>Whether the opera itself is good
>or not is also due to extranneous circumstances (and in Verdi's day
>massive time constraints, Verdi wrote Aida in a month, Glass had much
>longer for the Voyage. Same level of achievement?) 

Stupid comparison.  Verdi's idiom was well-established.  Wagner took 
28 years to write the Ring, not least because he had to change his 
style several times.  

>No matter how bad
>Stiffelio is (and its pretty bad) Given the narrow time contraints
>Verdi still doesn't repeat the same mistakes (like Glass' vocal writing
>travesties) but makes errors "of commission" trying to achieve
>something new but failing.

Meaning what?  I'm not sure why you insist on trying to pin a 
comparison between Glass and Verdi on me.  It's clear which one is 
the better composer, but comparing the specifics of their situations
is utterly ridiculous.  They work(ed) in different musical worlds, 
with different demands, different expectations.

>If you defend the Verdi basher how come I'm being crucified for
>attacking Glass. 

You're not.  You're getting heat for doing it *badly.*

>(God, again I wrote them in the same sentence) What about my tastes? 

Your tastes?  A bit precious, if you ask me.

>However, I'm not thin-skinned enough have my battles fough for me.

I'm not.  I'm challenging your line of inquiry.  It makes no sense to me.
It doesn't tak into account 125 years of music history, including 
a complete change in the circumstances of production and consumption
of music.  And, of course, a difference of 4000 miles.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical