From: lwl@disco.seas.upenn.edu (Lydia Leong)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pern
Subject: Re: MUSH: Re: WANTED: People to populate New Pern
Date: 12 Dec 92 14:38:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

In article <snip> morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett) writes:
>In article <snip> garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey) writes:
>>katala@glia.biostr.washington.edu () writes:
>>> I am in need of people to begin work on the Weyr , which will be Telgar
>>> first. 
>>	Aiiiiieee! NOT TELGAR!!!!
>>	:has hideous flashbacks to The Meeting between PernMUSH and
>>TinyTIM "There is only one Telgar! How can you claim to come in friendship
>>when you are tearing our Weyr from us and replacing it with a SHAM??"

Ah yes. The Meeting. In the interests of trying to prevent any further
misunderstandings from developing, I am going to quote directly from the
log of The Meeting, so some reasons are provided for WHY Telgar isn't
built on PernMUSH.

Anyone not interested in this issue can skip to the next article now. 
(The short version of my point is, "The TIM-Pern meeting was just that, 
TIM and Pern. The promise not to build Telgar doesn't apply to any MU* 
other than PernMUSH. Also, because the agreement was made so long ago,
many of the reasons for it are no longer valid, and almost certainly not
applicable to the newer Pern-themed MU*s.")


By way of explanation, Chedris and T'pek were the Weyrleaders of Fort Weyr
on PernMUSH, and wizards. Marcia is the senior Weyrwoman of Telgar Weyr
on TinyTIM, and in charge of the Pern area there; she is also a TIM wizard.
At the time, TIM was one of the most powerful MUDs out there; it was in the
interests of the brand-new and struggling PernMUSH to have cordial relations
with TIM.

This log is from my viewpoint. I hope I'm not offending anyone by posting
parts of it. This log is dated 4/3/91. I hope that the passage of a year
and eight months has made at least these sections "safe" for public 
consumption. It's probably time to explain the reasons why PernMUSH agreed
not to build Telgar Weyr.

Chedris says "Marcia, you really seem to be threatened by the idea of a world
  of Pern, etc. Earlier you said we'd have to rethink how we would relate to
  other weyrs..."
Chedris says "Every weyr has *always* been different."
Marcia says "You seem to want to have cordial relations with Telgar, then
  tell me you are going to build Telgar yourself. This is illogical."
T'pek says "That is not what we said if you would botheer to listen?"
Chedris says "TinyPERN is just a different concept altogether, is all. We are
  building an entire pre-mapped world. We can't build like TIM does!"
Marcia says "That IS what Chedris said."
Chedris sighs. "I said I wasn't sure *what* the plan was.
Marcia says "You are either all of Pern, or you are not. Which is it?"
[ ... ]
T'pek says "I have said this a hundered times. WE DO NOT WANT TO REPLACE OR
  DESTROY ANY WEYR THAT EXISTS... BUT WE WANT TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERY
  WEYR COULD COME TOGETHER ON ONE MU*. EACH ONE WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN POLICIES
  AS PER NORMAL!!!!!"
Chedris says "We aren't saying that we would be the ONE TRUE Telgar, MArcia.
  Really, we aren't.."
[ ... ]
Marcia says "I don't think you understand just how your ideas appear to
  someone who has others."
Marcia says "The vision is it's your code, built to your specs, built based
  on an Atlas that I do not entirely agree with."
[ ... ]
Marcia says "I don't know if you ever looked at it from the point of view of
  someone in my positions."
Marcia says "We have been Telgar, an established weyr, with established ways
  of doing things, etc. And, BTW, looking nothing like the Atlas."
Marcia says "Suddenly, another group of people comes along, with different
  code, and says that they are Pern, and that they will build Telgar and Pern
  *right*, which more than implies that you have built it WRONG."
You say "We're not claiming to do it right. We're doing it strictly by the
  books, that's all."
Marcia says "This means that in their view, you really do not even exist. It
  makes no logical sense to have TWO Telgars in your world view. This means
  that one cannot even visit as a Telgar rider, since there is already a Telgar
  there."
You say "This is crazy. We have no plans to build Telgar Weyr for a long
  time, do we? Why are we discussing it now?"
T'pek says "We never said ours was the right way. And yours wrong. NEVER did
  we say that."
T'pek says "Second: We never said you didn't exist and a thousand times
  insisted we wanted good relations."
[ ... ]
Marcia says "If there was only one Pern, it would mean we denied our own
  existence."
Chedris says "If we can acknowledge Tiglath, we can acknowledge you even
  easier."
Marcia says "If united you mean by having cordial relations but separate,
  then yes, that is what I had envisioned."
Marcia says "But by separate I mean completely independent, working together
  only when it is mututally desired."
Marcia says "And if you have a Telgar there, we cannot acknowledge its
  existence."
Marcia says "It all comes down to this: if we are Telgar, you acknowledge us
  as Telgar."
Marcia says "And we acknowledge you as Fort, Benden, etc."
T'pek says "And you would have there be a hole in PernMUSH where Telgar would
  be?"
Marcia says "This means that visitors retain their rank, are treated as
  visiting weyrleaders, etc."
Chedris says "DO we ask where the Tiglath people come from? Noooooo... Do we
  ask 'where's Shadowmere'? Noooooo...Why are we debating *this*?"
[ ... ]
Marcia says "I will acknowledge you as part of Pern, I always have
acknowledged you as Fort."
Marcia says "And when Benden opens, I will acknowledge that."
[ ... ]
Marcia says "Telgar is part of Pern. It recognizes its fellow weyrs."
[ ... R'nice, Weyrleader of Telgar, wizard on TIM, arrives... ]
R'nice says "So are we to hold a meeting? Is that the deal"
Chedris says "We had one....It is now 4 am....."
R'nice says "I beg to differ. We could not be holding one, since I was not
  notified."
R'nice says "If you would like to hold a meeting, we have a meeting room
  for such things."
Chedris says "I have to be up for a full day at school in three hours..."
Chedris says "This was a little informal, beginning with a chat between
  Marcia and I that broadened."
R'nice says "Very well, Chedris. I can understand that. Suppose we call a
  meeting for tomorrow evening? Would that work for everyone?"
T'pek says "This room will serve."
R'nice says "I am the Weyrleader here and I will decide which room of my Weyr
  will serve."
R'nice says "If you cannot grant basic civilities when you come visiting,
  well, then we have a problem."
[ ... ]
R'nice says "Weyrwoman, please schedule a time for a meeting. I go on record
  as hping that we can resolve this amicably. Telgar certainly wishes for good
  relations with Fort."
[ Somehow, it was agreed that the meeting was to be the next night, at 
  TinyCWRU's Tiglath Weyr - "neutral ground", with the Weyrwoman there,
  Kailyn, moderating. Unfortunately, nothing new really got said at that
  meeting, although the two MU*s did manage to come to an agreement to
  more or less leave each other alone. ]


Well, the eventual result was that PernMUSH agreed not to build Telgar Weyr
and Hold. This later was extended to not building *any* area TIM had already
done; the Crom Hold on PernMUSH ("TinyPERN") was renamed to Hold Balan.

I don't think the problem was so much "building Telgar" as "edging Telgar-TIM
out from a place in the 'Pern World'."  Even though the Pern MU*s have always
more or less ignored the question of where exactly non-book Weyrs like Tiglath
or Shadowmere or Silver Circle come from, and how exactly one can visit from
Benden Weyr on PernMUSH to Benden Weyr someplace else, the TIMsters felt
that this issue was one important enough to hammer down an agreement that
PernMUSH would not encroach on TIM territory. That promise has been kept.

Looking at the log bits above, and thinking about the situation at the time
that meeting occurred, I would say that the promise to stay away from doing
Telgar does *not* apply to places besides PernMUSH. The premises behind the
PernMUSH-TIM agreement are no longer valid. We've seen Perns of all sorts
spring up in the last year and a half, and rarely are riders unable to call 
themselves visiting (the exceptions are the MU*s set in a different time 
period - Dragonsdawn, for example). The question of legitimacy is simply
not an issue, normally. The only major no-no: you cannot build a Weyr that
_directly_ encroaches upon an existing Weyr (i.e. one that it set in the
same time period). 

The original prohibition is even more ridiculous when you realize that
Pern MU*ing is currently the big fad. There are more than enough players
to go around, and there is plenty of room for alternate visions of the
world. (I am, however, strongly against the duplication of dragon names;
most of the current Weyrs have agreed to avoid it.)

>Pshaw.  Just because 2 years ago a now-defunct section on a MU* built
>Telgar Weyr, that doesn't justify that it should never ever be built
>by any MU*, anywhere, any time.  Things are much different now from
>the arguments nearly two years ago between Tim and PernMUSH.

My point exactly. While PernMUSH continues to abide by the original
promise, I see absolutely no reason why any other place should feel
obligated to do so. If the TIMsters have a problem with it, they 
can take it up with the builders. I don't see why the existence of
a practically defunct area should prevent other MU*s from building
it if they so choose. I don't believe Telgar-TIM has ever set an exact
time period for their area, so the prohibition against building Weyrs
from the exact same time does not apply. (But no, PernMUSH has no plans 
to do Telgar.)

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