From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: The question of Experience
Keywords: college job entry cs sysadm
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:34:18 GMT
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario

pmueller@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (The Highlander) writes:
>     I'll start off right away by asking my question.  Can someone like me
> get a job without a college degree, but with little corporate experience?

The short answer: Yes, but no.  Yes you can get a job, but no, you probably
won't be able to find the kind you want, at least not without a lot more
corporate experience.  Thus, you'll probably find that you spend as much 
time in "junk" jobs acquiring that experience as you would in college.
In general, college is a much better investment.  

Of course, we're talking probabilities here.  You may be that one-in-a-
million who overcomes difficult obstacles by virtue of your brilliance,
but then there are a lot of other brilliant folks already out there.

>     Here's my situation:  I'm 18, and In the last 8 years have self-taught
> myself computers and programming.  This includeds UNIX, C, C++, Pascal, 
> REXX, Objective-C, as well as many popular applications such as LOTUS
> 1-2-3, dBase, Informix, Word, Mathematica, and others.  

Of course, as a potential employer, I can find many others with the same
qualifications but who also have a solid undergraduate (or graduate) degree.
I'm not saying what you list is not impressive, but "experience" starting
at age 10 counts for little in my book.

> However, when
> it comes to schooling, I'm not that talented.  My talents are limited to 
> computers and writing.  

This, I think, may be an unsurmountable obstacle.  The days when you could
get by on only computer talent are largely gone.  Today, if you don't have
good interpersonal skills, the ability to discuss and write about a variety
of subjects, and the ability to discuss and understand completely non-technical
subjects, you won't be hired for any desirable position.  Again, there are 
just too many others out there who *have* these talents, and the stakes are
too high to risk on a more narrowly defined person.  In addition, while a 
college degree may seem silly in some cases, nearly any degree shows that 
the holder is able to finish what they start, and that they are able to do 
more than just one thing.  

I don't mean to be brutal here, just honest.  It's my hope that if you 
hear some solid advice here, you'll avoid lengthy and costly mistakes.  

> [...] I initially chose to go to college, finguring that here I would learn
> all i need to know about computers and programming.  I chose a respectable 
> school (U of I, Urbana-Champaign) and enrolled.
> 
>     Well, to my shock, most of the computer teachings I already knew, 
> the problem lies in that the subjects I didn't know I wasn't any good at 
> anyway.  (I have no grasp for Optics for example)  Thus, I soon discovered 
> my grades dropping low.

If you're 18, you couldn't have been going to college for too long, true?
Also, if you what you say is true about the computer knowledge, your grades
in those subjects should have been at least adequate, if not stellar.  If
this is not the case, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself and see
if there are other things going on.  Finally, why worry about advanced math
or optics?  Such are not necessary for a degree; that is, you can get a
perfectly fine degree without going through such hoops.  In many ways, I'd
rather hire someone who has a wide base of different classes and an _adequate_
focus in their major, than I would someone who took every class in their
major's department and few others.  If you can master Unix and C++, you 
_can_ get through a few history or art or geography or philosophy classes.
_No one_ is so narrow in their talents that this is untrue for them.  
At least, no one that I'm going to think about hiring is -- if this were
true for someone, then due to this narrowness I wouldn't be able to count 
on their ability to cope with new situations which _will_ come up.  

>     So, here I am stuck with failing grades, and little hope of staying in
> college.  I will admit that part of my problem is a priority conflict.  I
> hold a paying job over my education.  And it is true also that I tend to 
> spend too much time on the computer, teaching myself, when I should be 
> studying Philosophy, or Physics.  Yet, this is me, and I can't change that.

If it's true that you can't change that, then don't whine about not being
able to get the job you want.  You can change nearly anything about yourself
if it is important enough to you, but you have to be willing to take 
responsibility for the choices you make.  As you say, it is a question 
of priorities.  I too worked my way through college, doing a tough 
self-designed major (cognitive science) while working 20 hours per week
and having a wife and two kids at home.  It can be done, and is *ABSOLUTELY*
worth the investment.
--
              Mike Sellers      User Interface Team Leader
           mike@isgtec.com      ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
              "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
                         Furare tantum ab Optimis
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc