HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:55:33 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <106480236@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
[regarding destruction of cairns:]
>Well I think you're both dickheads.  You obviously believe that everyone is
>entitled to *your* opinion.

The cairn builders are the ones imposing their opinion on the rest of us.
They never asked my opinion before building their obnoxious little pile of
rocks.

Do not build cairns.  Take only pictures.  Leave only footprints.
 
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Subject: Re: Animal Friendly Climbing Boots
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 00:16:09 GMT

In article <25634@life.ai.mit.edu> klaus@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Klaus B. Biggers) writes:
>In article <VLADIMIR.92Jul18091827@ronnie.Eng.Sun.COM> vladimir@Eng.Sun.COM (Vladimir Ivanovic) writes:
>>Of course, everyone realizes that all synthetic boots are probably mostly
>>derived from petroleum products...  There is no free lunch.
>
>A valid point. However, both the leather and the petroleum products used
>for plastics are basically by-products from a larger industry... gasoline
>and beef to eat. So if you want to have any impact, cut back on your
>consumption af beef and gasoline. The leather and plastics cutback will
>come about much more easily then.
>
>-klaus                                              klaus@ced.utah.edu

Perhaps we've entirely misinterpreted the original information request.
We assumed "animal friendly climbing boots" to mean climbing shoes constructed
sans animal parts or organic material.  Other interpretations are possible.  

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2563 rec.backcountry:5543
From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:50:06 GMT
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada

In article <1992Jul17.173221.3504@bnlux1.bnl.gov> shyen@bnl.gov writes:
>Hi!  I'm a beginner at this sport.  It did not take me 
>long to realize that there are many specialized terms
>(lingo) used in this sport that a beginner is not expected
>to understand (what is a red point?).  Can someone give me
>some tips on the climb lingo (a book maybe?)  Most of the
>magazines use these terms freely without providing any 
>explaination.  If you are willing to do alot of typing, e-mail
>will be fine.
>
>Thanks
>
>sharon yen (shyen@bnl.gov)
>Brookhaven National Lab
>515, CCD
>Uption, NY, 11973
>
>

I'd be interested, too.  Thanks..
Patrick
-- 
==========================================================
Patrick D. Buick EMT, EET  | Internet: buick%belay@uunet.uu.net
Belay Enterprises Inc.     | Internet: buickp@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...!calgary!pixel!belay!buick
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rme@brown.edu (Richard Everson )
Subject: Climbing in Michigan?
Organization: Center for Fluid Mechanics, Brown University
Distribution: rec.climbing
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:25:01 GMT


Can anybody suggest some crags or rock gyms fairly close to Ann Arbor?
I expect to be visiting Michigan frequently over the coming 
year, but it seemed pretty flat when I was there this weekend.

Many thanks,
Richard Everson.

rme@cfm.brown.edu
From: morrison@cup.hp.com (Bobbie_Morrison)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Webbing
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:28:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

: 
: 
: 	In the mountian tools catalogue they list tubular webbing
: 400 pounds (145kg) stronger than flat webbing.
: 
: 
: Michael (Brodesky)

Yes.  I also remember some time back realizing that if you did everything
right (in setting your pro, good bolts, clipping biners correctly etc...)
that it was the webbing that was the weakest link in the system. (Although
I can't remember the numbers now).  Thats when I switched to sewn spectra
slings.

--Bobbie
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2665 rec.backcountry:5706
From: naru@eng.umd.edu (Naruhisa Takashima)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Public perceptions.  Was: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:46:40 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Originator: naru@hurricane.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Jul29.203007.6201@csi.uottawa.ca>, pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey) writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.172314.116391@zeus.calpoly.edu> jdalbey@zeus.calpoly.edu (John Dalbey) writes:
>>
>> amusing stories of people's ignorance of 'outdoor activities'
>>
>
>Last summer, when hiking up a mountain with my nephew from N.Y.C,
>the 6 year old asked me, "Who planted all of these trees?"
>
>-Pete
>
>-- 

This is nor amusing. This is really sad.  I take it your nephew ggot the
idea from seeing
these ECO commercical saying hoe WE plant trees and save the environment.

Now I think its great that companies are doing this, but at the same time 
something seems to be missing.

Naru Takashima
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: revillot@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Judy Tolliver)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Followup-To: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Organization: Dept. of MSE at Illinois-Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:24:47 GMT


Try finding your way around parts of Canyonlands without cairns. 
Especially in the Maze and Needles Districts where water can be scarce and
routes go over bare rock ...

--Judy Tolliver
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: Computing & Comm. Services, University of Ottawa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 17:15:11 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.170517.22876@src.umd.edu> frankpit@eng.umd.edu (Bernard Adrian Frankpitt) writes:
>
>If a route is sufficiently heavily travelled to sustain damage then it is 
>obvious where the trail goes without the cairns, and yes I do find those 
>"Short cutting causes erosion" signs about as offensive as the ones that 
>say "Scenic Outlook" or "Private Land owned by XYZ developers" when they
>occur in areas that have some claim to being wilderness.
>

I'm not too sure about this.  At least not in the east.  Some of the
high altitude alpine bogs are very sensative to traffic.  I know of several
'untrailed' peaks with cairns placed to route people away from these
sensative areas.

Something else.  In the adirondacks, there is a mountain, Skylight, with
an enormous cairn on its summit.  According to the legend, climbers must
carry a rock up with them and add it to the cairn, otherwise it will
rain.  PLEASE!!!  Don't anybody ever kick that one over.  We're having
enough rain as it is this summer.
-- 
Pete Hickey               | Pete@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "If a vegetarian eats
Communication Services    |   or (if desperate)     |  vegatables, then what
University of Ottawa      | petehic@uottawa.bitnet  |  does a humanitarian
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 564-7646         |  eat?"
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: bungee
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 20:26:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.163117.27250@colorado.edu>
ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:
>Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
>
>>Maybe bungee was invented by an incompetent climber....     :-)
>
>i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
>hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
>anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
>long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
>the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
>(mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?

You want:
alt.sport.bungee.

South sea-islands.
Nothing like the experience of cratering. 8^)

How about Bungie (tm) cord.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: mzp24@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Marshall Pease)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:29:22 GMT
Reply-To: mzp24@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Marshall Pease)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


> Of course some folks feel that the only "ideal ascent" is an on-sight solo
> with no shoes, no clothes, no chalk, no glasses (and no brains).
> 
> Mort (once did a non-on-sight nude solo with shoes and chalk)

What is this fixation everybody has with going *up*, not 
to mention the formalization of *routes*?  Such groupthink.
Such testosterone-poisened competitivity.

Personally, I think an ideal day would be spent wandering
aimlessly around some cliff, wearing Sunday morning clothes
(including shoes) originally picked out for going to buy a paper,  
carrying a camera on a strap, lunch, and recreational quantities
of the drug of choice for the midday meditiation period....

Not what I do....but then I'm not very good.

    -Mars

*
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2700 rec.backcountry:5740
From: unger@mitem.com (Tom Unger)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:58:51 GMT
Organization: MITEM Corp

In article <eric.712022536@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
>While climbers hem and haw about the merits/evils of bolts, I haven't
>heard much fuss over the use of the above three common modifications
>to backcountry routes.  While the oft-touted Principle of First Ascent
>usually determines who decides where the bolts do or do not go on a
>rock face, this principle seems to be ignored wholesale in other climbing
>and hiking situations.


I've puzzled over the appropriateness of route markings off the main
trails too.  Sometimes I take out cairns and sometimes I leave them up,
but I don't have a consistent approach to this yet.

When I am in a place that very few people get to OR am feeling that
the backcountry should not be modified by people at all, I'll remove
cairns.

But when I'm in a place that receives significant traffic OR am
feeling "what do I know about what is appropriate" I'll leave them up.
A spiderweb of foot paths is more offenciveness than a single trail
marked with cairns.

To counter the argument that cairns should be place to help people who
have difficult route finding I would say this.  We have to examine
what we are seeking in the backcountry experience.  I say that it is
the feeling of exploring remote areas, not getting to the top of a
peak.  The presence of cairns takes away remoteness, makes areas fell
less wild.  But the absence of cairns does not prohibit people from
exploring remote areas.  Everyone should approach backcountry travel
at their skill level.  Some will stay on trail.  Others will take easy
cross country routes (there are a few in the Cascades).  And others
will take tortuous climbing traverses of the most remote ranges.

This argument can be applied to all levels of development.  If the
back country experience is getting to the top of a specific place, you
might as well put trams in.  But if it is removing ones self from
every day life and coming in contact with wilderness and a different
pace of life then we should preserve as much wildness as possible.
People can approach it at their level of ability and be rewarded by
the experience.

Tom Unger
Seattle
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:53:58 GMT
Subject: Re: The Rostrum and a lesson in jamming.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing




Great story.  Makes me want to buy Spider Mitts today!!!

The numb hand bit reminds me of falling at the Gunks with my fingers in
a perfect and sharp finger jam.  The jam was so good it stopped me.  I 
never weighted the rope.  I continued to the belay with absolutely no
feeling in my index finger.  It was 2 weeks until it returned to normal.

Mort (does that count as a fall?)
From: vladimir@Eng.Sun.COM (Vladimir Ivanovic)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Third Pillar, Regular Route in Tuolumne Meadows
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:45:12
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: us
NNTP-Posting-Host: ronnie

The third edition of "Rock Climbs of Tuolumne Meadows" (p. 87) has it
listed as 5.10b but the topo shows a parallel 5.7 crack next to the 5.10b
section on the third pitch.  The second edition has the same climb listed
as 5.9, without the 5.10b section (p. 58).

Is this a misprint?  Did a hold fall off?  Was it a sandbag?  In
desperation I can lead 5.10b, but I'd *MUCH* prefer doing the 5.7 variation
instead of the 5.10b.

How about the approach?  Are there any gotchas?

Words of wisdom would be appreciated.

-- Vladimir
--
Vladimir G. Ivanovic                            Sun Microsystems, Inc
(415) 336-2315                                  MTV12-33
vladimir@Eng.Sun.COM                            2550 Garcia Ave.
{decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax}!sun!Eng!vladimir         Mountain View, CA 94043-1100
                         Disclaimer: I speak for myself.
From: gt3930b@prism.gatech.EDU (NICHOLS,STEVEN MALCOLM)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:38:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <TIMSC.92Jul29084043@aspen2.cfsat.Honeywell.COM> timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider) writes:


>Brett> 	I have an awful lot of people ask me if and when I am going to go
>Brett> bungee jumping, in light of the fact that I rock climb.  I found this to
>Brett> be an unusual question and can't see why people relate the two.

I was on a climbing trip to the New River Gorge about 2 or 3 years ago 
(certainly before I heard of bungee jumping).  Every day after climbing we
would go down to the river to swim, by the old RR bridge, about 60' high,
at least at low water.  One day we went down to see a bunch of climbers
lined up on the bridge and apparently jumping off.  These guys had set up a
sort of bungee jump with an old lead rope and some webbing.  The rope was
rigged some # of feet short of the water, with two loops tied in the end.
Clip into the top loop with your harness and jump/swing.  When you get tired
of swinging, stand up in the bottom loop to unweight your harness and unclip
from the top loop.  Let go at the top of the swing and you usually can get
a few somersaults before you hit the water. 

Pay for bungee jumping?  Forget it.  I saw some pictures in one of the local
papers of a setup in Alabama ... as near as I could tell, at one
point in the setup, a single non-locking carabiner was used, and no airbag
safety.  Besides, $80 for a second or two of adrenaline rush is a pretty
poor deal.  I can go lead a 5.8 or 5.9 with bad protection and
easily squeeze an hour or two of adrenaline filled angst out of it for free!

Steve.
gt3930b@hydra.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jcn@rice.edu (Jeff C. Nichols)
Subject: Re: bungee
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:53:47 GMT

ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:

>i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
>hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
>anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
>long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
>the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
>(mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?

Actually, I believe this is correct.  National Geographic did an article 
on way back when.  This is my mind is true bungee jumping as the article 
mentioned that the vines had to be just right because if they were too 
long or too stretchy, then the person would hit the ground (not some mat 
or body of water, either ;-)

On a different note, did anyone see my post about shoes?  I could really 
use some insight since I am ready to buy some.

Thanks.


--
*  Jeff Nichols                 |   I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay. * 
*  DoD#0402         AMA#568571  |   Ride:  GS500E    		   *
*  It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and I'm wearing milkbone    *
*  underwear--  Norm Peterson					   *
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: u6409886@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:18:55 GMT
Organization: The University of Melbourne

Just a little thought from down under. This thread seems to be an attempt
to make black and white a grey area. Sometimes cairns and trail markings
are worthwhile, when they can save both people and the environment from
extra wear and tear. For example, I placed a small cairn myself in a
National Park to mark a turn-off onto an obscure trail leading up to a
small outcrop of rock. I did this on the way out, because on the way in
I picked the wrong "trail" (probably made by Kangaroos who can jump
much better than I), and had to bash through 300m of prickly acacias,
and disturbed a lot of topsoil in the process. One packed down path
and leaving the rest to the Kangaroos sounds good to me.

	Andrew Davies
	Physics, Melb Uni

P.S. If anyone visits the You Yangs soon, please leave the cairn there,
and turn right at it to reach the figleaf boulder.
From: calum@clu.cf.ac.uk (Calum Gordon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Conditions in Swiss Pennines ?
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:43:53 GMT
Distribution: eunet
Organization: Computational Linguistics Unit, U of Wales,Cardiff,UK.
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

I'm one of a group of three going to the Pennine Alps in 10 days
time. Our valley base will be in Saas-Fee and we intend to climb some
of the nearbye 4000'rs.  Anyone out there with info on snow/ice
conditions in the area ?  I believe there's been quite a lot of late
snow around this year.  What is the glacier cover like ?  Also, does
anyone know how crowded the huts will be in this area during early
August ? Any info will be much appreciated.
-- 
/*******************************************************************\
** Calum J. Gordon.................** TEL: +44 (0)222 874000 x5310 **
** Computational Linguistics Unit..** FAX: +44 (0)222 874293       **
** University of Wales.............** JAN: <calum@uk.ac.cf.clu>    **
** College of Cardiff..............** "I have nothing to declare   **
** CARDIFF CF1-3EU  U.K............**  but my genius" (Oscar Wilde)**
\*******************************************************************/
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 20:21:13 GMT
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing



I saved this from the last time this question was asked.  Most of these
terms deal with climbing style.

Solo - alone - either "rope solo" where the soloist uses a rope and gear to
       protect herself or "free solo" meaning no rope.

Free - Rope and gear allowed, but used only to catch a fall.  The climber
       does not hang on gear to make progress.

Aid -  Gear is placed in the rock and the climber hangs from this while
       placing more gear higher, etc.  Gear is used to make progress.

Beta - from Betamax video - move by move description of a routes hard moves.

On-sight or a vue - Climber walks up to a route without prior knowledge and
       climbs from bottom to top with no falls and no hangs.  Without prior
       knowledge means no beta (move by move description), the climber hasn't
       tried it before and without watching someone else on the route.
       Knowledge of route location, name, and rating is OK.  Kind of the ideal
       ascent.

Flash - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs on your FIRST try.
       You may have prior knowledge.  Beta-flash means you flashed a route
       with the help of beta.

Redpoint - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs.  Redpoint implies
       that you have tried it before and fell or had to hang.  Redpoint used
       to imply that you placed any natural gear/quickdraws as you climbed.
       This is usually ignored these days.
       Redpoint has become the "ideal" ascent for people who like to climb
       above their flash ability.  They don't feel like they have "done" a
       route until they have redpointed it.  Involves a little integrity.

Pinkpoint - same as redpoint, but it implies that gear/quickdraws were already
       placed before you started.  Often not distinguished from redpoint.

Dogging or Hangdogging - Climbing until you fall at which point you hang on
       the rope like a DOG and regain your strength.  Then start from where
       you left off.

Of course some folks feel that the only "ideal ascent" is an on-sight solo
with no shoes, no clothes, no chalk, no glasses (and no brains).

Mort (once did a non-on-sight nude solo with shoes and chalk)

From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:15:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Best Places to climb near Denver, CO
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing


> Allright, I know there are going to be ALOT of places to climb
> near Denver, but where are the very best places?  I climb 9-11's.

Depends on how you define "near" and "best".  Do you like sport or
trad routes, long or short, granite, sandstone, or limestone?

My favorites:

Eldorado:  Long sandstone trad routes.

Shelf Road:  Short limestone sport routes.

Flatiron Area:  Especially Fern Canyon and Dinosaur Mtn.  Short sandstone
                sport routes.

Mort
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Why such an extremism ? (Was Re: cairns)
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:42:11 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <Jul30.223154.66348@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.192708.27957@oracle.us.oracle.com> krshah@us.oracle.com (Kalpak Shah  ) writes:
>>
>>****Should society ACTIVELY make backcountry more accessible or should it
>>leave it alone ?****
>
>This is an interesting question.  Given that nobody is willing to admit,
>much less try to solve the real problem -- namely, population growth --
>backcountry enthusiasts are caught in a pinch on this one.

One more thing:  The fact that some of us are ready to resort to physical
violence over the cairns issue is evidence that we are already behaving
like overcrowded caged rats in some biologist's population experiment. 
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU