HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 03:16:59 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Options when disagreeing

Darryl Johnson writes:

When your Truth is different from another's Truth, you have three
choices:
    (1) accept their Truth as being valid
    (2) try to change their Truth, but (to be fair) giving them a
chance to change YOUR Truth, and expecting high resistance from the
non-believer
    (3) kill them, either quickly, or slowly and horribly
 ... (I might be missing one)...

I can think of some others, and I also might be missing one or more.
Incidentally, I think it less confusing to speak of different
beliefs rather than different Truths. With that in mind, I offer the
following revision of Darryl's list:

When your belief differs from that of others, you have several
options:
    (1) accept their belief as being TRUE (and reject your own as
false)
    (2) decide that your belief and theirs are both true, and that
the apparent difference between them is based on a misunderstanding,
a breakdown of communication resulting (for example) from inexact
terminology.
    (3) regard their belief as false, but decide that the difference
between you and them is not important enough to be worth debating
    (4) regard their belief as false, and gravely so, but decide
that an attempt at dialog will probably get nowhere, either because
your opponents are very set in their ways, or because you do not
have the background knowledge or the skills needed to put your point
across
    (5) try to change their belief, but (to be fair) giving them a
chance to change YOUR belief, and expecting high resistance from the
non-believer
    (6) try to protect others from their influence, by taking your
children out of classes they teach, by complaining to the school
board or the TV network (but be sure to have your facts straight),
etc.
    (7) kill them, either quickly, or slowly and horribly
(I might be missing several)

Being of disputatious temperament, I incline toward (5) (which
occasionally leads to (1) or (2)), but realism often compels me to
settle for (3) or (4). I exclude (7) on moral grounds, and am not
energetic enough to exercise (6) very often.  (I am currently
writing to an educational network about a lecturer of theirs whose
factual assertions on a major point are demonstrably wrong, but if I
am rebuffed, I am unlikely to organize a compaign.)

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:59:43 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Lilith (WAS Question of the day)
              9 Apr 1992 13:13:03 EDT from
              <Saundra=E.=Ketner%RESADM%DFCI%netban2-gw.dfci.harvard.edu
              @HARVJMMY>

According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica Lilith was a demon in ancient
Jewish folklore.  The legends vary but many of them say she was a
female demon who strangled babies and who seduced men and bore demonic
children.  Some legends say that some time after the Fall Adam and Eve
separated and the demon Lilith seduced him.  "In Scripture three is only
one reference to Lilith ((Isa. 34:14)), among the beasts of prey and the
spirits that will lay waste the land on the day of vengence."  An
anonymous, satirical, heretical work known as the "Alphabet of Ben
Sira" probably written after the 6th Century of the Christian era
era may be the first place where Lilith was changed from a demon
to a human female who was Adam's first wife.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1992 13:24:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Songrette - It is well...

     IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL (Horatio G. Spafford)

  When peace like a river attendeth my way,
  When sorrows like sea billows roll;
  Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say,
  "It is well, it is well with my soul."

  Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
  Let this blest assurance control,
  That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
  And hath shed His own blood for my soul.

  My sin--O the bliss of this glorious thought,
  My sin--not in part but the whole,
  Is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more,
  Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

  And, Lord, haste the day when the faith shall be sight,
  The clouds be rolled back as a scroll,
  The trump shall resound and the Lord shall descend,
  "Even so"--it is well with my soul.

  It is well...with my soul,...
  It is well, it is well with my soul.
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:15:17 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request update

Update:

Thank you everyone, for praying for my friend's ex-girlfriend.  She has
cancelled her appointment to have an abortion and is talking about the
baby as a baby and talking about her pregnancy in a futuristic tense.
However, she has not yet told her parents, and it will be very difficult
for her to do so.  Please pray for strength for her in broaching this
subject with them. If she cannot tell them, of course, she can still
change her mind.  We know that the baby is not safe until she has told
them and completely made this decision.  However, right now, so far so
good.  Please continue to pray.  Your support is appreciated by both of
us (my friend and myself); though she has no idea how many prayers are
being lifted up for her, I know that if she knew she would also be
thankful to you.
                 Love INC,
                          ---Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:15:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Love

   Following some postings on the list...
   ....there's not a lot of Christ-like love on the list is
   there?

   Mutual edification? or "You fool!  Can't you see that you've
   got your concepts wrong???" or "Gee... you don't know what
   you're talking about, do you?"

   Hmmm...something is really amiss here.


   Being the first to confess that I'm also guilty of it,
   Vicky
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 07:59:00 EST
From:         "Jeff Sinatra" <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Poverty
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

vicky,
You wrote:
>Yes, God created all that was made, but things such as death, sickness,
>and poverty are the (direct and indirect) results of man's sin.

To me, sin is what another list member called "missing the mark."  I agree
that poverty is the "(direct and inderect)" result of sin, however, sin
is derived from mortality--from the belief that life is intelligent and alive,
and that man is mortal and seperate from God.  God would not create a sense
of lack in any of His children, and that is why understanding that God does
not create poverty frees people from pverty--they realize that they have
dominion over this horrid human limitation through God.  God did not create
sin, nor did He create the limitation and bondage that proceeds from sin.
Mortality (sin, sickness, and death) is human invention and idolatry, and
immortality i
s derived from God--derived from infinite Mind, Life, Truth, and
Love.

>No, to demonstrate His (Jesus') victory over sin.

Sin is derived from mortality, and by destroying the belief in mortality
through demonstrating man's immortality, Jesus destroyed the seeming foundation
of sin.  Death is the number one weapon of sin and mortality, and without this
most convincing illusion mortality will eventually vanish, and the kingdom of
heaven will come on earth.

>Death being real has nothing to do with it being Truth.

On the contrary, If death was real, then it would be a part of Truth, and it
would be immortal.  Mary Baker Eddy writes, "If sickness is real, it belongs to
immortality; it true, it is a part of Truth. Would you attempt with drugs, or
without, to destroy a quality of condition of Truth? But if sickness and sin
are illusions, the awakening from this mortal dream, or illusion, will bring us
into health, holiness, and immortality." _Science_and_Health_ P. 230

>How can He destroy death? You mean, He destroyed the illusion of death don't
>you?

I stand corrected--thank you.

>...can I say that since you understand that mortality is also an illusion...

I never claimed that I fully understood my own immortality, and if that is the
immpression I left I am very sorry.  I only know the target, and am still in
the process of aiming. To be perfect and immortal is the ideal that Jesus
demonstrated, and that ideal is what I am aiming for.

Vicky,
I have to go to work now.  I will answer your last two questions in a future
post. I am looking forward to hearing from you, I really enjoy your honest
questions--thanks.

				love,
				  Jeff Sinatra
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:35:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Fruit or Act?

Ian responds to my question:
>Vicky, in my opinion God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden as a test
>for mankind.. He could have removed all possibility to sin, but he wants us
>to love him out of our own free will..

    He knew that they (we) were going to sin anyway.
    He knew it!

>It was our disobeying of God that was the sin..

    If it was just the _act_ that caused Adam and Eve to fall,
    why did God so zealously guard the Tree of Life then?
    It was the implication that the _fruit_ of this tree will
    give eternal life to those who partake of it, isn't it?

    I know that I'm not very clear at what I'm trying to get at,
    but bear with me for a while longer.  :-)

    Vicky
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:06:35 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian rock
              8 Apr 1992 08:58:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

Steven (sorry I lost the top line there; I'm not sure i've got that
spelled right):

Several people seem to have missed John's point on this.  "Amazing Grace"
is a wonderful song.  What has been DONE to it by modern Southern gospel
groups is the problem (substitution of "someone" for "a wretch").  The
point is that many modern Christian rock groups are very up-front in
their gospel message, even though it may be loud (believe me, the kids
can hear it), while softer, Southern gospel often sugar-coats the more
"offensive" aspects of the Bible.  However, as I told him, this is not
limited to Southern gospel.  The new hymnals of most denominations have
made a determined effort to incorporate non-sexist language, excise songs
about the blood, and downplay the wretchedness of the sinner.  You and
John (and I) actually agree.   Does that clear things up?

By the way, here are the other verses to "Amazing Grace" (my all-time
favorite song, by the way):

  Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
  and grace my fears relieved;
  How precious did that grace appear
  the hour I first believed.

  Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
  I have already come;
  Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
  And grace will lead me home.

  The Lord has promised good to me,
  His word my hope secures;
  He will my shield and portion be,
  As long as life endures.
                          Love INC,
                                   ---Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:29:09 EDT
From:         "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Punishment for committing abortion
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
X-cc:         riolo@PICA.ARMY.MIL

        This is an open question for you to think about.  I do not want to
sound that I do not want to discuss on abortion but I have to manage my
time and I am still thinking about issues relating to abortion.

        If abortion is outlawed in a state or country, what kind of
punishment will you want to give to a woman who has abortion, a doctor who
performs abortion, and people who assist abortion?

                                        Joseph P. Riolo
                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 07:54:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Songrette - Friend

   WHAT A FRIEND WE HAVE IN JESUS  (Joseph M Scriven)

   What a Friend we have in Jesus,
   All our sins and griefs to bear!
   What a privilege to carry
   Everything to God in prayer!
   O what peace we often forfeit,
   O what needlesss pain we bear,
   All because we do not carry
   Everything to God in prayer!

   Have we trials and temptations?
   Is there trouble anywhere?
   We should never be discouraged;
   Take it to the Lord in prayer.
   Can we find a friend so faithful,
   Who will all our sorrows share?
   Jesus knows our ev'ry weakness:
   Take it to the Lord in prayer.

   Are we weak and heavy laden,
   Cumbered with a load of care?
   Jesus only is our refuge:
   Take it to the Lord in prayer.
   Do thy friends despise, forsake thee?
   Take it to the Lord in prayer;
   In His arms He'll take and shield thee!
   Thou wilt find a solace there.

   "For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous." -- I Pet 3:12
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 11:42:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      abortion--countries

From: whchen@cs.nthu.edu.tw (dr798302)

>Hi,
>  In Taiwan abortion is legal as there are very few Christians here.  Can
>you give me an account of the coutries that allows abortion and those that
>disallows it.

>Thanks.
>Allen W. Chen

Allen,

Abortion is allowed in the United States, Canada, Holland, England, Italy,
Spain, Portugal, France, the Scandanavian countries, China, Japan, Singapore,
Australia, New Zealand, most Eastern-block countries, Zambia, and Ghana.  The
Swiss countries vary.  Of course their laws vary from abortion-on-demand to
abortion for only the "hard cases."

Germany still technically protects the unborn, but abortionists go unpunished.
Abortion is illegal in Ireland, most of Africa and Latin America, and all
Moslem nations.

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26

*******************************************************
* Michelle R. Bruce                                   *
* Programmer I                                        *
* Southwest Texas State University, San Marcos, Texas *
* about 30 miles South of Austin, Texas               *
* and 40 miles North of San Antonio, Texas            *
*******************************************************
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Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1992 11:27:36 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: More on "truth" and faith

Tom:
Only the Spirit of God can convict someone of Truth.  We, His servants,
can bring the Truth, but only God can convict.  To the foolish, all
things are foolishness.
                       Love INC,
                                ---Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 07:44:00 EST
From:         "Jeff Sinatra" <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

To me, there is no such thing as "spiritual death."  Man is eternal because he
has been created in the "image and likeness" of God.(Gen. 1:27)  Man reflects
God--God is Spirit and man is spiritual.  To say that spiritual death could
actually happen, is to argue that part of God could die.  I do not think that
that is possible, therefore, I believe that "spiritual death" is also an
impossibility.  What dies is the physical sense of things, the false perception
of God's pure spiritual reality.  All physicallity will be swallowed up in the
understanding of immortality, and "thy will be done in earth as it is in
heaven."  There is nothing in Spirit, God, that could die, for death is a human
invention not a divine creation.  So, if there is nothing in Spirit that can
die, how can we argue that a part of Spirit (our spiritual nature) can die?
The only thing that can testify to "spiritual death" is our physical senses,
but the physical senses have no cognisance of anything spiritual--the physical
mentality is destined to death, to nothingness. On the other hand, our
spiritual nature will be harvested and cultivated.  The tares and wheat may
grow side by side, and look to have the same nature and origin, but time
separates these two opposites (Truth and error) and there differences become
clear--one to be harvested the other to be destroyed.

				love
				  Jeff Sinatra
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:35:00 CDT
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Easter Egg Trees

Hello,

I just thought I would share what I know about the Easter Egg Trees that
are being discussed.

I saw one in a card store about 3 years ago, and thought it to be very
pretty.  I asked the clerk about it and she said it was a tradition from
either Germany or Holland (for some reason I think she said Germany,
but I can't remember after 3 years!).  I still think that they are
pretty, but I think that things like this take away from focusing on
the real meaning of Easter.

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you during this blessed season,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:08:41 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Existence of Concepts (was Poverty)
              10 Apr 1992 21:06:08 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Kilroy:

I agree with you, but Jeff Sinatra says evil does _not_ exist; he
says it is an illusion, if I am reading him right.
                                                  Love INC,
                                                           ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:40:41 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Yoga & Medicine

Darryl:
Your examples are historically accurate, but the comparison is not.  As
patients, we are not required to participate in the symbolism of the
medical profession.  We are, however, required to engage in the worship
practices of Hinduism in order to practice Yoga (again, I know this from
personal experience.)  Yoga in the United States is a recruiting tool
for (excuse the expression) bastardized Hinduism and most often transcen-
dental meditation.  These practices are religious in origin and imply
direct contact with demon spirits.  The symbols used in medicine do not.
(If I found that doctors were still searching the internal organs of
deceased animals to discern a sign from the gods as to what to do in my
case, I would stop going to doctors altogether and put all my eggs into
the faith-healing basket.  As long as it is possible to find a Christian
doctor, I am unwilling to go so far as to throw out the entire profession
in this manner--unlike my feelings about psychoanalysts.)  --Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:07:11 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Abortion terminology

Nicole:  I'm just wondering about hyphenation because this is the topic
  of my dissertation, and I have found no agreement on this point in the
   academic literature, and I'm just wondering how I should handle it.
   So I thought I'd take a poll.  That's all.  No big deal.
                                                      Love INC,
                                                           ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 23:09:00 EST
From:         The Nuzz <V063KC44@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Modern Revelation and the Pope

Doug Gould writes to Marty...

[... ...]

dg> This is precisely the strength of the Mormon position, Marty.  We claim the
dg> heavens are not sealed.  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[... ...]

        Except for the few decades in there when the LDS Prophet
taught that God was Adam. So God is not really the same yesterday as
He is today (according, of course, to the LDS Prophet).
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