From: gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: My Problems with GURPS
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:13:12 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

In article <44027@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) writes:
>In article <1993Jan22.190708.16065@Princeton.EDU> mfterman@flower.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>>1. There are only four attributes, and sometimes the distinction
>>between Strength and Health can get extremely confusing.
>
>Not really.  Health determines how you deal with damage, disease,
>how fast you heal, etc.  Strength deals with physical exertion,
>stamina...
>
>>Yes, yes, I know that if you add in a lot of the advantages and
>>disadvantages, you have a larger set of attributes, but a lot
>>of attributes that are directly calculated from these stats should
>>be separated out, like fatigue and hit points. Additionally, this
>
>Are you saying that you're unable to do this yourself?  Not a very
>valid complaint.  There's no specific space because hit points and
>extra fatigue are only introduced in certain very specific genres.

	You've got that backwards.  Hit points and extra fatigue are only
introduced in very specific genres becuase there is no specific space for 
them.  If they were figured separately, they would be distinct much more
frequently.  What you have is a case of the rules shaping the world.

>Generally-speaking, HP=HT and Fatigue=ST in almost all games unless
>you're running with your own house rules or you're playing with
>supers.

	Again, this is because this is how the rules are written, not be-
cause it is most "realistic".

>
>>disconnection between Health and fatigue points is really odd to
>>my mind, and doesn't make a lot of sense.
>
>Very simple.  I don't exercise, I eat a lot of junk food, but I
>haven't been very sick in years.  My health stat might be high, but
>that doesn't mean that I can run 10 miles.
>
>Strength deals with all forms of physical exertion (running is an
>exception for some reason.  I've always accepted it, but I don't
>really see any reason to get "confused") while health tends to deal
>with just that -- how healthy are you?  I've known people who ARE
>strong, but succumb easily to sickness and heal slowly.
>
>I honestly don't find the disconnection odd.  Being healthy is NOT
>equal to having a ton of stamina.  They're very separate and should
>be kept that way.

	But being able to lift trucks isn't necessarily connected to stamina,
either, nor is the ability to take a punch necessarily related to resistance
to illness.  Shouldn't they be separate as well?

	Again, the things that GURPS connects aren't necessarily related, except
in the games rules, so they *become* related in the game world.

>>Additionally, for all its claims to be all things to all people,
>>it has a rather limited magic system. HERO system is more complex,
>>on the other hand you can create any sort of magic system you want,
>>to give the campaign the right sort of feel.
>
>Hero's magic system is damned ugly.  GURPS presents a handful of
>magic systems as a guideline (rune, general GURPS magic, and
>improvisational magic), and there's nothing there that says you
>can't make your own.

	Hero doesn't have rules for magic, it has rules for *creating* rules
for magic.  Those rules are extremely elegant, adn give excellent guidelines
for creating the magic system *you* prefer.  GURPS just gives the rules for
a couple of magic systems, and you must extrapolate from that how to write
the magic system you prefer, with little relative guidance.  I don't know 
about you, but I buy rules so I *don't* have to write rules.

>>3. GURPS has claims of realism through its point value system,
>>though it seems rather arbitrary in point cost values.
>
>Explain.  I find that the illiteracy cost is very realistic.  Many
>things are based on either the difficulty required to gain the
>ability (especially for skills), or the potential worth if such a
>difficulty can't be determined (allies, patrons, etc).

	Having two different philosophies (actually there are three: the two
you mention, and the probability one: if it's unlikely, it's more points)
is a problem.  This hodgepodge of pricing methods tends to bias the game 
strongly in ways that aren't necessarily good.  The problems with creatin
low-stat, high-skill characters, or the relative inequity of utility of the
various stats, or of having advantages/skills that are very expensive but
have no effect on play have all been mentioned here before,  The only 
rebuttal I've seen is that you *can* create those characters, just for more
points.

>
>As always, if you have problems with a system, go ahead and change
>it.  Nothing in GURPS says that you have to stick with the rules
>presented...

	If you have to change too many things about a system, it's not worth
the effort.  That's no defense.

>>    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
>>mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
--
gharris@jade.tufts.edu          
George W. Harris              	"He'd kill us if he had the chance."  
Dept. of Mathematics            
Tufts University              			The Conversation