HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:13:02 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Parents of the Virgin Mary (26 July)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

PARENTS OF THE VIRGIN MARY (26 JULY)

The Scriptures tell us nothing about the parents of the Virgin
Mother, not even their names. An early but unreliable writer calls
them Ann and Joachim, by which names they are customarily known.
Our only real information about them, however, is an inference from
the kind of daughter they reared.

PRAYER
   Almighty God, heavenly Father, who settest the solitary in
   families:  We thankfuly remember before thee this day the
   parents of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and we humbly entrust to
   thy never-failing care the homes in which thy people dwell;
   that we may be made very members of the heavenly family of thy
   Son Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the
   Holy Spirit, one God, now and ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:03:27 EDT
From:         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Party politics

> That simply is not true. I've heard that the Republicans are going to
> have a civil debate over this platform issue, and have scheduled at least
> one pro-choice Republican, Lynn Martin (who's in the Cabinet) to speak.
> This doesn't mean the party will reverse itself - it simply realizes,
> unlike the Democratic party, that it is unhealthy to stifle dissent. The
> opposition to the pro-life plank will have their say, and will be heard,
> and maybe they'll vote on it again - but the pro-life side will win.
> Maybe Governor Casey will be able to make his case to the Democrats there.

We disagree on how the Republican party conducts itself.  I don't find the
way it establishes its party platform much different from the Democrats'
methods.  This year Clinton's camp took great pains to show unity at the
convention and party leaders wised up to the fact that the strife-ridden
affairs of the past three elections have hurt them.  Clinton negotiated
to keep platform fights to a minimum, got party rival Mario Cuomo to
act as nominator, & had Ron Brown keep disagreeable Jerry Brown's speech
to a mere twenty minutes.  With an incumbant in office and the Buchanan
threat over, the Republicans, as has been the case in the last couple
decades, don't have to worry about showing a unified front.  They do
have to worry about the fallout from their anti-abortion stance.  To
allay fears that they're extremists on this issue, they'll allow some
token opposition, but the pro-life plank was decided on long ago.  Bush
has Republican chairman Rich Bond in his back pocket (remember how Bond
treated Buchanan when he was building up steam early on?), and Bush is
running with the pro-life position.


*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block    "Love is not a ballad on the top ten chart            *
* bd32@lafayacs   Love is not a virus from cupid's dart                *
* 215-250-8031    Love is not a promise that you tear apart            *
* Lafayette Col.  Love is a commitment heart to heart" -- Larry Norman *
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Amy Grant and her "Crossover" Music
Date: 28 Jul 1992 21:25:30 GMT
Organization: Rice University

Yvette Traylor writes:
>How many of you were tricked into becoming a Christian by hearing a
>Gospel message that was 'cloaked'?  If your minister of the gospel
>started singing 'Baby, baby' in church to reach the unsaved that were
>there, what would you do?  Weather or not Amy Grant knew it, she was a
>minister of the Gospel, the young kids who listened to her Gospel music
>are the ones we should be concerened about. How will this music effect
>them. Do they know what Amy is singing about has changed?

I have a couple things to say about this entire Amy Grant thread.

Firstly, "singing music that does not edify God" is not wrong, and
if anyone says different I want you to do some hardcore repenting for
the last time you sang "Happy Birthday" to someone.

Secondly, the entire point of her cross-over is that it is NOT like the
example above.  She is actually GOING OUT OF THE CHURCH to reach those
stranded souls who do not go there!  I know that's a novel concept,
but has some precedent (Matt. 22:9). Those of you who don't understand
this also must not see why evangelism doesn't just consist of getting
up on a box and telling all passersby they're sinners.

Thirdly, y'all act like Christians can't get anything out of music that
is not explicitly Christian.  Nah, we don't need to hear about love
and good longlasting relationships and stuff.  Christians don't have
a problem with that.  No, we're all loving and tolerant and never get divorces
and never sin and boy, everything's great.  All I need now is music
that repeats the word "Jesus" over and over until I sink the rest of the
way into my unseeing stupor.

The biggest danger in discussions like these is our blindness towards our own
lives.  If everyone who has posted against Amy is a full time clergyperson,
then you have some room to talk.  If you're not, how DARE you criticize
someone for not doing EVERYTHING for God?  You don't.  You have a job,
where you deal with pagans, sell things to pagans, are led by pagans,
make money for pagans, or provide goods and services to pagans.  How
can you hold someone else to a higher standard than you meet?  If your
life was examined, would it show 1/10 of the devotion of Amy Grant's
to God?

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no
attention to the plank in your own eye?  Read Matthew 7.

Ernest Mueller
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Subject: Re: Remarriage after Divorce?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:24:14 GMT

Well, you say you have read 1 Cor 7, which seems to speak pretty plainly
on the subject.  However, some would say that since your wife remarried,
she has "broken the covenant," and you are therefore free to do as you
wish.  I have seen several posts claiming something of this kind, and I
do not really see where anyone gets this from.  There was one argument 
based on 1 Cor 7:39 and the Law saying that since adultery is a sin
punishable by death, after it is committed the person is "dead," and so
it is like you were a widow/er.  It seems, however, that if this was
true it would be mentioned in the epistles - Paul likes OT analogies, but
never does he make this one.

The real question here is : If one member of a covenant breaks it, is the
other one free of the agreement?

I would argue no, for several reasons.  Firstly and particularly for marriage,
are the two not "one flesh?"  This makes me think of the words of the
marriage ceremony, "for as long as you both shall live" and "What God
has joined together, let no man put asunder."  Does this mean "please
don't put it asunder" or "man has no authority to?"

Also, was not Israel God's "wife" in a similar covenant?  They were unfaithful
many times in the OT, and terms like "adulterous" were used towards them.
God however did not consider his end of the covenant broken.
Maybe (I am not sure) He could have, but the fact that He did not
shows which is the more Godly course.  

I can see no Biblical justification for saying that in a covenant, if one
member violates it the others are free to go.  And even if that is true,
it seems the more Godly thing to do is hold up your end anyway.  Remember
Christianity's difference from the Jews is that we have additional
redemption, and are ourselves not condemned for violating laws, while
we also are to forgive our neighbors in the same way.

I have thought about this question for a while.  My parents are divorced, and
one is remarried.  But I still can see no precedent in the NT for 
giving up, based on the Matthew and 1 Cor passages mentioned.

If anyone is well educated in what "covenant" relationships imply, esp.
to Jews of the time, please post or contact me.  Note that this does
not include "I interpret this to mean"  or "I think a covenant is ..., " 
but actual period knowledge.

Ernest Mueller
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Original_To:  BITNET%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:24:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: US Politics/Family Values/Hillary Clinton

<        "I prefer that [court] intervention into an ongoing
<        family be limited to decisions that could have long-term
<        and possible irreparable effects if they are not resolved.
<        Decisions about motherhood and abortion, schooling, cosmetic
<        surgery, treatment of venereal disease, or employment,
<        and others where the decision or lack of one will significantly
<        affect the child's future should not be made unilaterally
<        by parents.  Children should have a right to be permitted to
<        decide their own future if they are competent."
<
<[stuff deleted]
<Give me a break!...is there a person among us who would have and
<could have made informed and reasoned decisions with such far reaching
<and permanent ramifications, when they were *12* years old?  Or even
<13, or 14!

I believe that Ms. Clinton is arguing that it is for a court to decide whether
a given 12 (or 13 or 14 year old) is competent to make informed and reasoned
decisions.

As one data point, there is my student and new covenmate, Ascha.  When I was
introduced to her by a mutual friend, she was 14.  She is now 16.  Normally, I
would not teach one under the age of 16, but she has her head on straight and
is capable of making informed and reasoned decisions.

(People wondering about legality take note: I have her parents' permission and
blessing to teach her Witchcraft.)

Dan
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: healing
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:47:44 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

David,

One of the best books I have read on healing was by Francis McNutt (I am
not sure about that spelling, maybe some other brother or sister can help
here).  I can't even remember the name of the book, but he was (I heard he
left his order) a Roman C. religious who was active in the R.C. Charismatic
Renewal, and had a healing ministry.

I think you would find his book(s) interesting.

About curses - even modern psychology as messed up as it can be (like anything
else right?) has recognized the power of words.  I thank God that He has spoken
a better Word, a powerful Word, that restores and blesses.

                                               Peace,  Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:33:02 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply to Julie Nott

Dear Julie ;

I, Jesse Carnes, and Tom Brewer, come to you from LSU's Middleton Library, here
in Baton Rouge, LA.



                           In Christ ;


                           Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:25:07 EDT
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Divorce & Remarriage

    I have never been divorced nor has anyone in my family, so I do not
have any first hand experience with failed marriages. However, our
pastor (American Baptist) is married to a woman who had been divorced
before he met her. She had made an impetuous marriage at the age of
eighteen before she knew Jesus Christ as savior, and soon realized that
she had made a very serious mistake. God has blessed her marriage to
our pastor with three beautiful children and a husband who loves her.
    Our church had been through a rough period with our previous pastor
on the issue of divorce and several people who had gone through divorce
were alienated and left the church. Our previous pastor would not allow
a divorced person to hold any church office regardless of the circum-
stances leading to the divorce. I served on the pulpit committe that
selected our current pastor and was amazed that the church voted almost
unanimously to call him. Before we called him to candidate, we brought
our concerns before the board of deacons and they did not have any
problem with his wife's divorce since it happened before she accepted
Christ.
    I believe that the Bible teaches that God's plan for marriage is
one spouse until separated by death except in the case of infidelity
(adultery). I also believe that divorce is not the unforgivable sin
and that God can bless a marriage even if one of the marriage
partners has been divorced. If I recall correctly, Jesus in the
sermon on the mount warns against divorce except in case of adultery.
He was addressing a society where men had been divorcing their wives
for very trivial reasons.
    Jesus did not condemn either the Samaritan woman who had five
husbands, nor did He condemn the woman taken in adultery. Biblical
geneology, which usually deals only with male succession, lists in
the line of Christ two women, Rahab and Tamar. Rahab was a harlot
in Jericho and Tamar was guilty of seducing her father-in-law and
becoming pregnant by him.
    I guess the point of this rambling is that God deals in very
different ways with individuals depending on their spiritual needs
and their spiritual condition which only He knows. We cannot determine
anyone elses guilt or innocence in God's sight. That is strictly
between God and that person. Instead of trying to determine who is or
is not sinning, we should be loving each other as Christ loved us, and
seeking to build each other up in the faith. I thank God for this list
and the way that it has strengthened my faith and for the love that is
evident in so many of the postings.
                                             In Christ,
                                             Claude Garner
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Original_To:  JNET%"christia@asuacad"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 10:54:00 CST
From:         JULIA 204 <JRS1488@TAMVENUS.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

        I just sent a message to a guy in Georgia who I've been writing
to ( the class I'm in has pen-pals and he's mine).  Well, he wrote
me yesterday telling me about his beliefs--to sum it up, he thinks
all the rivers run to the same ocean...
        I prayed about it,  got some verses from my college pastor at
church, took a deep breath, and told him what Jesus is all about.
I ask that ya'll pray for him--Jeff--.  That God is softening his
heart, and, most of all, that Jeff will give his life to Christ!!
        In case any of ya'll remember my message the other day
about my friend Nina--I was confronted with 2 people within two days
who feel this way about God and religion.  It's been a real growing
experience for me.  I have never really 'witnessed' to someone,
at least not in this context.  What I mean is that I haven't been put
in a situation where the other person seems to be really searching!
        Please pray for Jeff and Nina!!
                        In Christ,
                                  Julia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:16:00 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Multiple personalities
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Jul 30, 92 3:00 pm

>
>>From what I have heard today, and from what I have seen the person in
>question do. I am even more confused, than ever.  But, it is time for me
>to depart, so I will just have to stay confused until Monday. Thanks for
>all yalls help Yvette
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."*
>*  Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3    *
>*  Computer Programmer/Analyst                                         *
>************************************************************************
>

Pray that the Holy Spirit will make it clear.. HE knows what the problem is!


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:09:25 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Multiple Personalities..

I believe that there is such a phenomenon as multiple personalities,
however I also believe in demonic influence.. Just as I generally
believe in natural sickness and demonic sickness..

Like the Lord Jesus, we must use the discernment of Spirits to correctly
diagnose the problem, and then either pray for healing, or use the
christian authority to rebuke the devourer..

One cannot simply make blanket statements that it 'sounds' demonic, or
sounds natural. Such things are matters of the Spirit and need to be
treated in a spiritual matter!


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:30:06 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Amy Grant and her "Crossover" Music

On Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:19:59 CDT Yvette Traylor said:
>How many of you were tricked into becoming a Christian by hearing a
>Gospel message that was 'cloaked'?  If your minister of the gospel
>started singing 'Baby, baby' in church to reach the unsaved that were


Probably none of us were knowingly "tricked into becoming Christian".
However, one of the most powerful Christian witnesses a person can
give is to simply *live* the Gospel. How many times I have heard that
a sinner was so moved by a Christian and "wanted what they had".

As a mother I see have seen the effects of subtle non_Christian behavior in
music, television, and movies. I have also seen the effects of behavior,
music, television, and movies that represent a Christian ideal. And
these aren't wrapped up in a "sermon", its simply by the presence of
a Christian *attitude* and the absence or evil, or at least the
glorification of evil.

I would be surprised to see a pastor of a church break into an Amy
Grant song in the pulpit, just as I would be dismayed to go to a
concert and receive a pastoral type sermon. There is a time and place
for every postive approach of the Christian Gospel.

>there, what would you do?  Weather or not Amy Grant knew it, she was a
>minister of the Gospel, the young kids who listened to her Gospel music
>are the ones we should be concerened about. How will this music effect
>them. Do they know what Amy is singing about has changed?

It is difficult for me to imagine that Amy will sing anything that
would harm their Christian walk. And from what I understand she still
includes Christian music in her concerts...therefore the opportunity
to bring non-CHristians in to hear the secular and include the
Christian music as well>
>Which song in particular of BeBe and Cece's does not give specific
>praises to God?

Is it possible that your criteria is that all Christian music specifially
praise God, directly? Perhaps my attitude differs because I believe
that all things reflecting love are a reflection of God's love. To me
music is often prayer, and just as I pray in different manners, I also
sing in different manners. Some prayer praises God, some asks for
direction, in some I tell Him all my problems, and in some I simply
*Love* Him. So in music the same is also true. Some praises, some
tells of life's "woes", some is simply of love.

Just my 1.33 cents worth   ( inflation and pay freezes, you know!)

In His Love,
Elizabeth
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 10:36:51 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Watchman Nee

I've seen his name on the list many times but I have no idea who he is.
Can anyone give me a brief bio of Watchman Nee?

Thanks in advance.

In Christ,

Carol Slingo
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:30:42 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      On Not Living in a Vaccum

Darren,

Your comments on responses to Hillary Clinton's ideas about children
being able to divorce their parents seem to ignore the social context
in which we are living.  There are a log of people, including people
with great influence at various levels of government, who oppose the
traditional family.  They want the government to take on a far great-
er role in the raising of children than it now does, and they want to
diminish parental influence and control.  I quoted a passage from
Thomas Sowell about one aspect of this problem.   I also mentioned
that there have been a number of cases in which bureacrats assumed
that injuries that actually resulted from ordinary childhood acci-
dents resulted from parental abuse, even when there was no evidence
to support that charge.  I said that I had read of such cases but
could not provide specific examples, and Michael Kline provided an
example from his personal knowledge.  If I had the time to look
through unindexed newsletters, etc. I could provide specific exam-
ples, with names and places, of similar encroachments, and I suspect
some other people on the list could do so as well.

This fact, in itself, suggests the possibility that Hillary Clinton's
views are more dangerous than they might seem.

Another fact of contemporary society is that the desire to have the
government usurp the role of the parents is found most often among
elements of the liberal left and more radical leftists.  Everything
I've read or heard about Hillary Clinton suggests that she is a
radical feminist and in general a member of the liberal or radical
left.  Adding that information suggests that her views are even more
dangerous than the first fact would suggest.

Marty Helgesen
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