HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjc5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Cavotta)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: New Walther PPK/S
Date: 24 Jan 93 03:32:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


	My search for a new personal defense gun brought me today to the
Medina Gun Show, where I purchased a new Inter-Arms Walther PPK/S .380.  I
was very impressed by the gun's fit and finish when compared to other in
its class (Astra, Bersa, etc...), not to mention the fact that it is "the
original" so to speak.
	I think I might have paid a price for that positive impression. 
DOn't get me wrong, it was the best price I found at the show by no small
margin, ringing out at $380 including tax.  There were stainless versions
available from other dealers for over $400 EXCLUDING tax, so I guess I
didn't do too bad.  The gun came in a nice little box with an extra
magazine and the factory target certifiably used to test my gun (a nice
touch, I think).

	Anyway, for those of you out there who own and love Walthers, you
can count another among your fold.  If you have any tips for me regarding
ammo and other pistol-peculiarities let me know...

Thanks!  
-- 
Michael J. Cavotta

"You either ride the steam-roller, or you stand there whining and die..."
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ammo
Date: 25 Jan 93 03:09:49 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

#>Is Black Talon the best stopper out


CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon
CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon CorBon

'Nough said?
From: lloydo@nad.3com.com (Lloyd Oliver 764-6931)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is this corrosion?......
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:28 GMT
Organization: 3Com Corp


In article AA04458@rutgers.edu, wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
# In article <23JAN199308595750@zeus.tamu.edu> mjm3170@zeus.tamu.edu (MATTSON, MATTHEW JUL) writes:
# #I have a shooting buddy that recently asked me to post a question to the
# #group to see if anybody out there could help him.
# #He has noticed that his FEDERAL 9mm ammunition has a greenish, stick 
# #residue left on it after a few days on duty (police officer) and was wondering
# #if anyone knew what was causing it.
# #
# It's corrosion.
# 
# #At first I thought it was corrosion, but he tells me that it wipes off with
# #a clean rag and does not pit the casing of the round.
# #
# verdigris wipes off easily but it's still corrosion.
# 
# #Could this be a reaction with the chemicals in his leather holster, etc.?
# 
# Yes, it's common. Leave them unattended long enough and you won't be
# able to separate them from the belt. 
# 

Nickel plated brass will prevent this corrosion.  I wise idea.  Since if the verdigris is left on the cartidge and fired in the chamber, the gummy mess eventually turns into a cement making extraction difficult to impossible.

Lloyd
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:51:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

mac@cis.ksu.edu (Myron A. Calhoun) writes:
#basiji@stein.u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes:
##callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
##>>...  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
##>>around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads...
#For my around-the-house protection .357 Magnum pistols I use
#"POLICE CARTRIDGES .38 SPECIAL" (that's the writing on the box)
#manufactured by 3-D INV., INC., Doniphan, Nebraska.
#(For the curious, they are 158 Gr. Lead Round Nose.)

158gr LRN .38 SPLs?  IMHO a bad choice.  These rounds are awful
stoppers.  There are other options offering better stopping
capability, while still being "politically correct".

Silvertips or any .38 SPL +P JHP come to mind.  Wasn't there an
"FBI load" mentioned somewhere in the Gun Press?  A 147grs SWC
round or something like that...

Going from Homemade Devastator (tm) rounds to more mundane ones
shouldn't take us too far.

For the curious, I'm using .357 magnum 125gr SJHP for home defense.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: home protection concerns
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:

#morlan@afit.af.mil (Bruce W. Morlan) writes:
##I handle my home defense weapon with a slightly oily cloth when I
##preload it in the "readly alert" mode.  This cuts down on the oils and
##salts that the gun has to endure during storage - but probably removes
##fingerprints.  Is the net.opinion really strong on this issue?

#Since you have a factual reason for wiping your gun  the  finger-
#print   viewpoint   is  of  minor importance.  You did it because
#you are a responsible gun owner interested in keeping his guns in
#serviceable  condition.   BTW,  who is interested in fingerprints
#when it is wholly clear from the start who used  the gun?

I agree.  Besides, you'd be getting fingerprints on it if used in a
home/self defense situation.  That is, of course, assuming you don't
go around wearing gloves all the time. ;)

##Also - I use factory loads - partially jacketed hollow points (.357
##Mag), would I be better off if I used a more conventional round (is the
##hollow point a problem?

#If the law doesn't prohibit HPs, I don't think  that  they  would
#pose  a  problem.   HPs  are, for instance, less penetrative than
#round-nosed bullets.

On this subject, I still think there's reason to worry.  Personally, I
use Black Talon (tm) as my defense ammo.  However, if I ever have to
use them I expect that I might have to answer to a lawyer who has
renamed them to "Black Evil Baby-Killing Talons."  The simple answer
is:  I shopped around and picked the ammo that I felt had the highest
likelihood of protecting the lives of myself and my loved ones while
being as safe as possible WRT bystanders.  

If you're using a .357 for home/self defense I'd _definitely_ use some
kind of hollowpoint.  Round-nosed ammo tends to _way_ overpenetrate in
that caliber.  Also, supposedly a shot that fully penetrates the
target is less likely to stop them than one that comes to rest inside
the body.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------

                     Dallas Cowboys -- NFC Champions
                           The 'Boys are Back!
From: maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SPAS-12 trivia question
Date: 25 Jan 93 01:04:59 GMT
Organization: Sweet Oblivion

vtessier@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Vince Tessier) writes:

# There seems to be fairly consistent opinion that the Franchi SPAS-12
# is one of the ugliest/scariest guns around ... 

I agree.

# What's the hook on the SPAS-12 stock for?  It's usually thought of
# as a device to allow using this enormously heavy shotgun one-handed,
# but that's not its principal purpose.

And I quote: "With the stock closed the SPAS can be hung over the seat
of a vehicle by rotating the hook attachement."

# The authority for my answer, which I'll post in a week or so if no one
# gets it, is a conversation my usually-reliable source had with Luigi
# Franchi at the '88 AUSA show.

Well, my source is Kevin Dockery's "Compendium of modern firearms", a
book on firearms for role-playing games.



--------
maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) Voice +358 0 8092681
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) Official SRP Headquarters
SnailMail: Maininkitie 8A8 SF 02320 ESPOO FINLAND
From: steveg@access.digex.com (Stephen Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FFL Dealer Needed in VA
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:00 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Hi. I'm looking for any Virginia FFL holders who may have
access to the net or who read rec.guns. I have some questions
and other things I need addressed which regard VA. If you
are a VA FFL holder, i'd like to hear from you. Please
send me some e-mail. Thanks.

Steve
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sacramento Armory price on 7.62X39 ammo
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:56:19 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <1993Jan26.141903.4759@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz) writes:
#In article <1993Jan22.192001.8203@Csli.Stanford.EDU> cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower) writes:
##
##The Sacramento Armory price ($99 per case) for 7.62X39 (East German, 
##non-corrosive) posted to the net was for dealers. The normal price is
##$139 per case.
#
#is this the 1400 case? if so, beware that this is short range ammo, meant
#for a max of 100 meters. tracer is also available (at least here) at a 
#couple $$$ more. 

I'm not sure what "short range" ammo would be (practice?  plastic
bullet?) but the advertisment reads "1985 Manf. Non-corrosive. Steel
case, steel core, ready for use in all 7.62x39 mm ... especially
accurate in sks rifles".  This ammo is in 1480 round cases, in
"original german issue packing".

As for tracer - for some reason a real premium is placed on tracer in
the USA.  I've seen most tracer sold in units of 10 rounds at
something like $.50 to $1.00/round - up to $10.95/pack of 10 rounds. 
I've never seen it sold in case lots at a small markup over regular
ball ammo.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:52:47 GMT


gus Baird writes:
#For simplicity, clarity, and a little nostalgia, "army rifles"?

Unfortunately, this fits right in with NJ Governor Florio's "weapons of
war" BS. As in "legitimate sportsmen don't need _____________..."

I kinda like defense rifles: The selective fire guns are "assault rifles",
while the semi-only are "defense rifles". Or something like that?


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: danield@unlv.edu (Daniel Z. Davidson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New ParaOrdnance P12-45 Question
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:44 GMT
Organization: The Collective Insanity

In article <1993Jan19.230540.7140@cbfsb.cb.att.com> skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone) writes:
#If I recall correctly the largest ParaOrdnance was the P14-45.
#Was this 14+1 or 13+1 ?

The P14 in .45ACP is 13+1  (at least Mine is, if there is a 14+1 model I've
never seen it.)

Daniel

-- 

(danield@cs.unlv.edu)
From: aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco 1911 vs Springfield
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:54 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

In article <ffEA02P732SV01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes...
# 
##
##Someone recently mentioned a shop that sold new Norincos for $339.
##If the prices for Norinco and Springfield are about the same (for new
##guns), why choose one over the other?
#        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# 
#Well, don't take it personal, but I am amazed that this question is 
#asked. Given equivalent quality, I would HOPE that most Americans 
#would buy an American gun. I know that at least I would. One reason 
#why I am not even considering Browning for my new hunting rifle.
# 

However, you have to face up to the fact that we are living in an
ever-increasing international marketplace.  For example, Springfield imports
the raw forgings for its 1911s from Brazil and then final machines them in 
the U.S.  I would think that the modern Browning designs are engineered here 
in the U.S., but are only manufactured overseas.

******************************************************************************
| Bob Porro                    || (The opinions expressed here are not       |
| aeporro@venus.lerc.nasa.gov  ||  necessarily those of the management ?\*!) |
|                              ||                                            |
******************************************************************************
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 10mm and CHP
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:56:37 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <MAILQUEUE-101.930126081318.288@english.as.ua.edu> DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton) writes:
#I heard a similar story about the Glock trials with the CHP --

I'd be interested in hearing your source for this story.  It sounds
totally incorrect to me..

#When the time for evaluation rolled around they simply assembled the
#Glocks out of the pile of parts at random. This was also done with
#the S&Ws. Apparently, the Glocks were much more "sensitive" to this
#mis-matching of parts than the S&Ws were.

To the contrary, Glock parts are fully interchangeable (among the same
model).  Glock demonstrated this at a 1990 shooting fair where a Glock
pistol was assembled from a random selection of parts from a batch of
20 disassembled pistols, then over 10,000 rounds fired through it.
(About halfway through, the trigger spring broke and another was
substituted from the parts pile in less than a minute.  That was the
only malfunction.  The gun was field-cleaned once every 2,500 rounds.)

#The Glocks typically experienced frame cracks more often than the
#S&Ws did, but it wasn't uncommon for a Smith to fail in some other
#respect, i.e, a broken extractor, firing pin, etc. ... Glock, as I
#understood it, had to scramble to design a pistol capable of firing
#the 40 S&W and as such was handicapped from a R&D perspective.

The CHP evaluation is described in Kasler's nice book on Glock (from
which the above example was borrowed).  It is apparent that only ONE
sample of the model 20, TWO model 22s (CHP destroyed one by lodging a
defective bullet in the barrel), and ONE model 23 were evaluated.
They were all preproduction samples.  CHPs main criticisms were that
(a) the magazines did not drop freely (which happens to have been a
deliberate design feature) and (b) cracks were seen in the frame
rails near the locking blocks (which does not happen in production
models, which have an additional strengthening pin).  An excessively
large number of stoppages also occurred, but from other comments in
the CHP report it appears likely that most or all of these were
shooter induced (a well-known phenomenon with the extremely light
Glock pistols, readily overcome with proper training).

#I also have the feeling the test was slanted in favor for the S&W.

Or at least the specifications, evaluation, and selection criteria
seemed rather strange.  CHP has a long history of using S&Ws and
perversely selected a slide-mounted decocker over a frame-mounted
one on what was otherwise essentially the same pistol.  Apart from
not really being ready in time for the 1990 CHP tests, Glock's
design was probably too radically different to gain CHP acceptance.
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AK Drums, any good ?
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:50:17 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <28463@sybase.sybase.com> by mtxinu!sybase.sybase.com!thorick@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Thorick Chow):

# 
# 
# Hi all,
# 
# I'm considering the purchase of a Drum Type magazine for a CHinese AK
# rifle (MAK-90).  As these tend to cost a bit, I thought I'd ask
# if anyone has anything good or bad to say about how it functions...
# do the 100 rounders work OK ?   do the 75 rounders work OK ?

I used some of them with full auto Romanian AKMs and Chinese AK-47s in Korea.
They're heavy and make a lot of noise from ammo rattling inside.

As far as function goes, you have to be careful how you load them.  I had one
jam up on me while shooting one of the Romanian guns.  I had to take it apart
and clear things up.  I suppose they're ok, but I prefer the 40 round 
magazines used with the RPK.

# 
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"Read my lips, no new Haitians.  Ack!" - Bill the Prez
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org
Newsgroups: rec.guns,rec.hunting
From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Subject: SKB v. Browning v. Weatherby
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:19:56 CST
Followup-To: rec.guns
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


O.K.  I've been here before asking a related question, but I seem to have  
narrowed it down.  Which way would you go?  Replies appreciated!

Applications:	Sporting Clays	60%
		Trap		30%
		Upland Hunting	10%
	All for fun at this point, not serious competition.

Here are the most appealing options:

1) SKB 685 Trap Combo Set
	12 Gauge, single barrel in 34"
	12 Gauge, O/U in 30"
	Cross-bolt locking system
	Forcing Cones Relieved, .735 Bore, Interchangeable Chokes
	Claro Walnut stock, engraved receiver, gold bird on the side
		(good aesthetics)
	$1,795 for the set, $179.50 down and the balance over 12 months,
		no finance charges
	(I'd probably get the barrel pro-ported)
2) Browning Citori Special Sporting Clays
	12 Gauge, O/U in 30", wide raised vent
	Under-bolt locking system
	Forcing Cones Relieved, Back-bored, Ported, Interchangeable Chokes
	Plain wood, plain blued receiver with gold lettering (only fair  
		aesthetics)
	$1,200 for the gun, no payment plan available
3) Weatherby Athena Grade V
	12 Gauge, O/U in 30"
	Made by SKB to Weatherby Specs
	Cross-bolt locking system, Interchangeable Chokes
	Claro Walnut stock, lightly engraved receiver, gold crown on 	 
		release lever (good aesthetics)
	$1,695 for the gun, no payment plan available
	(I'd have the get the forcing cones relieved, probably have the  
		barrel pro-ported and maybe get it back-bored)
4) Browning Citori High Grade (Grade VI)
	12 Gauge, O/U in 30"
	Under-bolt locking system, Interchangeable Chokes
	Select walnut stock, greyed engraved receiver with gold inlays 	 
		(excellent aesthetics)
	$1,800 for the gun, no payment plan available
	(I'd have the forcing cones relieved, probably have the barrel 	 
		pro-ported, and perhaps get it back-bored)

The SKB combo set and payment plan are very attractive -- I
effectively get 2 guns for the price of 1, and the single barrel would
be useful in trap.  I hear good things about the gun, though more
people prefer the Browning.  I like the Browning I handled, but I
honestly thought it relatively plain-jane -- I do place a higher value
on aesthetics than many shooters.  Has anyone heard about the Browning
B-325 Sporter?  It seems to come in several grades and I saw an ad
claiming that it's very successful on the European circuit (I
translate this to mean big $$$).  But it may be the best blend of
features and aesthetics, unless I get the high grade Browning and get
some shooting features added.  The Weatherby is there because I played
with one in the store and it frankly seemed to fit the best off the
rack, as well as being a sharp looking gun.

In all cases, I still wonder how I'm supposed to get it fit properly (LOP,  
drop, cast, etc... are already fixed -- though the Browning has an  
adjustable trigger, which may help just a tad).  Does everyone rely on  
after-market pads and such?

Anyway, as I'm cogitating, any replies are appreciated.

Thanks,

Robert

robert_walton@next.com
From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Marine Sniper
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:26 GMT


Marine Sniper by Charles Henderson (Pub: Berkley) has been getting some
attention on rec.guns.  This biography of Carlos Hathcock is excellent and
a must read.  Unfortunately and until recently I've only seen this book
offered by mail order and in hardcopy.  A friend recently found the $4.99
paperback version in the History section of B. Dalton Booksellers, a mall
bookstore chain.

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self defense hypothetical
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:39:19 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee

In article <lairdb.727989452@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
#
#(As I wrote this, I got more and more curious about what people's
#opinions are on this and similar: imagine any typical example situation
#in which O.P. fires (returns fire?) such as a mugging, carjacking,
#etc.  Is there a point or situation in which O.P. chooses to collect
#his brass and vanish?)
#
I consort refularly with a former police officer.  His advice to me was to 
fade away if possible.  (If you shoot the perp in your home, this is not 
practical.)

Further, if you are likely to be identified, you should stand your ground.  
But anytime you shoot someone for any reason, you are likely to be charged, 
and that is something to be avoided.  It's also illegal, but that's not the 
issue.

To answer your question, If I am not likely to be identified, I will collect 
my brass, and retire.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
E-Mail to PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu, mail to ARCHER at that address will
bounce.    "Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: jagst18+@pitt.edu (Josh A Grossman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sig vs. Glock debate continues
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:09:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


I thought we beat this horse to death about a year ago.  Anyway here is
my two cents.  I own a Glock 21 and a Sig Saur P220, both have night
sights the glock has a wilson spring kit, other than that both gunst
are stock (no trigger work or anything like that)

Both guns are chambered for the .45 acp and I shoot the same ammo in both
guns.

Both guns are extremely reliable, but the Glock is very sensitve to primer
seating depth, which is why the Wilson spring kit was added, I have experienced
1 soft primer hit in my Glock with factory ammo with the factory springs
the Wilson springs seem to have solved the problem for my reloads which
had a history of not going off the first time.

Neither gun has had a failure to feed or eject a factory round or a handloaded
round (we are talking many 1000's)

Both guns are very accurate, capeable of 2" groups from a rest at 50ft (granted
my s&w 625 45 acp revolver can produce a one hole group from a rest at 50ft
with the same ammo)  

The SIg is a traditional double action, single action pistol, makeing good
double taps something that requires a lot of practice, the Glock safe action
is closer to single action (I like to call it action and a half), a very
consistant trigger (not nice, consistant) lends it self better to double taps.

The glock has almost twice the magazine capacity and probably is more corrosion
resistant (I have carried my sig for a year, every day, in an inside the pants
holster, no rust or any signs of corrosion)

The biggest problem I have with the Glock is , as the magazine empties, the
gun becomes noticably lighter, and my point of impact changes.  The Sigs
greater overall weight and smaller mag don't seem to create a similar
problem.

Overall I find that the Sig is a better concealed carry gun, because it is
slimmer, also I have never heard of an AD with a P220 when the decocking
lever was used, I can't say the same for the Glock (probably most of the
Glock AD's were due to user error, but one can never tell)

Over all I would have to say that they are both very good firearms, accurate  
reliable, & easy to fieldstrip and clean, but I carry my Sig...

Later,
Josh A. Grossman