From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Disagreeing with one's church (was Re: Clinton & Gore)
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:45:54 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Sep.5.17.16.45.1992.17669@athos.rutgers.edu> glenn@moeng2.morgan.edu (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) writes:

I agree with some of what was said here.   I may have over reacted, but
I do that sometimes.

I, myself, at age 13 came to Christ (i.e., was saved/born-again) in a 
Southern Baptist Church and I now attend a rather large and well-known 
Southern Baptist Church.  I am grateful for their work in my life and 
others.  For a couple of years I left the Baptist Church and attended/supported 
a couple of non-denominational semi-charismatic churches.  I, as I said 
above, now attend and support a Baptist Church, however, I hesitate to 
call myself a Baptist, but I do agree with a whole lot of what they say 
(more than I do with any other denomination.)  I prefer to say I am a 
Christian and if asked, I'd say I attend a Baptist Church - it happens 
to be rather conservative/fundamental.

>Well, *I'm* a self-described born-again Christian (and since I
>had my salvation experience when I was attending a Baptist church,
>I could call myself Baptist, I suppose, though I generally don't),
>and a lot of what I believe and support would not be palatable to
>the Fundamentalists I hear and read about in the media.
>
>(Actually, I'm not certain how palatable some of my attitudes 
>would be to most readers of this newsgroup, but that is another 
>matter.)

>Similarly, one of my ex-girlfriends is Catholic.  She's also 
>bisexual (and usually just refers to herself as lesbian).  The
>Catholic church isn't too keen on homosexuals.  That does not
>make her non-Catholic.  It does make her someone who's trying to
>change the church.

I'm not sure what exactly was said here, but it doesn't appear to
agree with my views and is not my main point.

>Some of us (many, I hope) feel we have to do what we feel is right,
>even when those higher up in various organizations disagree.  When
>the Lord guides us, we must follow.

We have to have a basis for this - Scripture seems to fit the
bill - We are to do what is right in God's sight and not man's.

>The hard part is to keep honestly asking oneself whether one is
>disagreeing because of _belief_ or because of _convenience_.  It

Many/Most of my beliefs are the same as I was taught - the
essentials still agree, but I didn't know why I believe or should
believe what I had been taught.  In my adult life, I have endeavored
to understand the WHY of what I believe.

>is easy to start rationalizing reasons to deviate from what we
>are taught.  But when you are certain that's not what you're
>doing, and you still disagree with your church leaders, follow
>your heart.  Unless you're Catholic, your church leaders are 
>fallible humans -- wiser than most, we hope, but human.  (I won't
>go into the nature of papal infallibility, as I'm not suffiently
>knowledgable to comment on it.)  _Listen_ to them.  _Respect_ them.
>And after listening to them, ask yourself whether they're maybe
>right after all, but if you still don't think they are, perhaps
>it's _your_ duty to try to educate _them_.

Again, one has to have a basis from which 'to educate' them.
This basis will keep one from deviating.  I disagree with things
in my church and do try to educate them, myself.

>Personally, I describe myself as an eclectic, born-again Christian,
>and I do not list a particular denomination more specific than that.
>One of the principles of _my_ Faith is that no (hu)man stands between
>me and my God.  There are others more _wise_, to whom I should turn

No one stands between, except Jesus, but we do have leaders today.

>for _advice_ and insight, and there are others who are better 
>teachers or just better people, but I talk to God directly, not
>through them.  Good people can help me to figure things out, and

Agreed.

>quite often show me important things I'm overlooking, but I cannot
>simply take their answers as given without questioning them first
>myself, tasting them to see if they feel _right_.  I trust to God
>for guidance, and work hard to be receptive to His word.

Good advice - test all things, as the Scriptures say.

>Of course, since I recognize no _spiritual_authority_ other than 
>the Lord, I have no church of my own to disagree with.  Whether
>this means that I am therefore unqualified to discuss differences
>of conscience between people and their churches I leave as an
>exercise for the reader.  Obviously, _I_ thought I had something
>to say.  :-)

Here is my bigger/biggest concern.  

It is rightly stated that no human man stands between one and God.

   I Tim 2:5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the
      man Christ Jesus.

We do have leaders who have purposes in the church, as the following says:

   Eph 4:11   It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets,
      some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
   Eph 4:12   to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body
      of Christ may be built up
   Eph 4:13   until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of
      the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the
      fullness of Christ.
   Eph 4:14   Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the
      waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the
      cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
   Eph 4:15   Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow
      up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

These leaders are to help build us up.

   Heb 13:7   Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
      Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

It even seems the leaders have to give an account for our actions.

   Heb 13:17   Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep
      watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their
      work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to
      you.

   Heb 13:24   Greet all your leaders and all God's people. Those from Italy
      send you their greetings.

These people lead us - we can't disregard them.

The final point is that we need to attend church to encourage one
another - I almost seemed to see a litle air of thinking that some are
above the need for a church in Mr. Arthurs post, pardon me if I
over reacted, but we do need to attend and support the church.

   Heb 10:24   And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love
      and good deeds.
   Heb 10:25   Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit
      of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see
      the Day approaching.


>As a side note, I have more respect for Jimmy Carter than I do for 
>any other politician I know anything about.

Jimmy Carter lives out his love for mankind, as we see with his involvement
world wide and locally here in Atlanta.  He is a Southern Baptist, I believe.
 
>D. Glenn Arthur Jr., The Human Vibrator, glenn@bessel.umd.edu

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts

-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |