HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hudson@cs.umass.edu (Rick Hudson)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Reply-To: hudson@cs.umass.edu
Organization: Dept of Comp and Info Sci, Univ of Mass (Amherst)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:01:25 GMT

>>>>> On 7 Apr 92 00:10:56 GMT, tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) said:
Bill> NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

Bill> But for whitewater?  Come on.  You have to kneel on a part of the
Bill> body that provides no natural cushioning.  This leaves your center
Bill> of gravity high, thus reducing stability.  You only get to use a
Bill> single-bladed paddle.  The thing is hard to turn, which is a major
Bill> disadvantage.  Why not just cut off one hand?  It's unstable and
Bill> hard to roll, even when redesigned for whitewater.  It's too long
Bill> to use in highly technical rock gardens.  When it wraps around a
Bill> rock, your trip is probably over.

Bill> So could somebody please tell me why people continue using canoes
Bill> in whitewater?  

It's fun.

--

                Richard L. Hudson, Research Associate
                University Computing Services
                Lederle Graduate Research Center
                University of Massachusetts
                Amherst, MA  01003
                (413) 545-1220; Hudson@cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: main Eel query
Date: 14 Apr 92 05:52:12 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

Has anybody done the Dos Rios to Alderpoint run on the Eel?
It was running almost 6000 cfs this morning, so it looks great
for Easter weekend (the weather also looks ideal).

What baffles me is that Cassady/Calhoun rate this river class
II-III, whereas Stanley/Holbek rate it class III-IV above 3000
cfs.  That's odd, because usually Cassady/Calhoun rate everything
higher than Stanley/Holbek.  What is it, really?

We'd like to do this river with our 2.5 year old, who could walk
around the five class III rapids described in Cassady/Calhoun.
All but one are right along the railroad track, making it simple
for mom & baby to walk around while I row the rapid.
From: Mitch.Rosenberg@f764.n153.z1.fido.zeta.org.au (Mitch Rosenberg)
Sender: UUCP@ship.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Advice on Kayak for begin
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1992 19:57:34 -0800

-> From: ka1gt@cbnewsm.att.com (robert.m.atkins)
-> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
->
-> I am thinking of buying a small, cheap kayak, mainly for use as a nat
-> photography platform and for use on small ponds, lakes and gentle riv
-> (no whitewater stuff). It should be stable, small and lightweight. So
-> far the Folbot Otter (rotomolded) looks like a good bet. Are there an
-> better choices around and are there any problems with the Otter (or t
-> type of kayak in general) I should be aware of.
->
-> Thanks in advance,
->
-> Bob Atkins  AT&T Bell Labs   att!clockwise!rma
->
-> ---
->  * Origin: Ship to Shore NET  Vancouver, (604)-540-9596 (1:153/764.0)

I purchaced a roto-mold kayak about two weeks ago and I have been very
happy with it. I have a Kayook by Necky Kayaks. The design came about
last year, and I picked up a year old (like new) toy for $560.00 Can.
The paddle cost a bit as well.
You can see the Kayooks at EchoMarine on Granville Island
From: slzm9@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Cooperation in Westwater (Was Defense of Rafting)
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:22:29 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

   I saw a kayaker go into the Room of Doom Saturday. He got flipped by
Skull Hole which was raging at 5500 cfs. He tried to roll up in the debris
but couldn't pull it off. He had been pummeled pretty good before Skull
let him go so it was understandable. Anyway he had to swim to shore which
isn't easy in The Room but his boat was still awash in the debris. Well
a good intentioned rafter went in there got his boat and pulled it to
shore for him. Then, of course, the raft couldn't get out very easily
so the kayaker paddled out of the Room and across to river left and got
out and pulled the raft out.

   Seems as though sometimes kayakers need rafters and sometimes rafters
need kayakers.

   By the way I was in a raft with my friend from Venezuela who had never
rafted before. But I usually always kayak Westwater. I owe rafters for
saves and beers many times over and thank them wholeheartedly.

   By the way the diagonal reflex wave in Sock-it-to-me was flipping
more boats than Skull because noone got out to scout Sock while
everybody was scared to death by Skull and was being very careful.

   Wow that wave in Sock-it-to-me is strong!!!

				Endo!Roll!Party!
					Mark Bowen
From: bg055@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stewart Rowe)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Artificial whitewater course in South Bend IN
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:14:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr14.211445.23878
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


"...good overnight canoe runs within 150 mi of Chicago?"
  Try Sugar Creek starting in Crawfordsville, Indiana. There is an
outfitter in Crawfordsville, and a canoe campground in Shades State Park.
Nice ride to (and preferable through) Turkey Run State Park (beautiful
gorge). Outfitter might not be able to take you out on west side
of park because of no space for trailer, but good takeout just above
(east of) Turkey Run Park.  This is not for the adrenalin canoeists:
just a nice creek, with an occasional downed tree hazard.
  Then there is all of Wisconsin, but perhaps not within 150 miles.
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:12:38 GMT
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO


>I think Chris overemphasized the cost factor between polyethylene and
>fiberglass-or-kevlar layup.  Right now a new glass boat is usually more
>expensive, but used ones are often cheaper.

The prices I quoted were meant for new boats, not used.  I don't
know what other shops charge, but the price range on a new Jaycox
boat is $1200-1500.

>Gee, Chris, the stuff we used thirty years ago wasn't flammable---are you
>sure you're not getting a cheap imitation?

Quit sure. ;-)

--Chris
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: New Corsica
Date: 8 Apr 92 21:36:42 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Distribution: na
Organization: Columbia University


	Just a review for anyone who is wondering about this boat. 
	
	I ran the Ten Mile and Housatonic in NY/CT this weekend for the first
	time in my new Corsica. The water was about average, with nothing too
	challenging but a few nice surf waves (just below State Line for people
	who know the stretch).

	The boat is great. Short, turns on a dime... you can really carve back
	and forth on surf waves. Really bouyant, dances over everything. I
	gets up on edge really easily for eddy turns, etc., and stays there
	very comfortably... doesn't try to go any further, and doesn't go back
	down flat.

	I think it's pretty easy to roll. Didn't roll on Saturday (that water
	looked a little cool :-)) but in recent pool sessions I have scored
	rolls I never had with my Mirage: pretty solid off-side roll, solid
	hand roll (useless, I know, but fun), and even my off-side hand roll
	(even more useless, but... :-)). So I think it rolls pretty easily, but
	I don't have *that* much to compare it to.
	
	Anyway, I would recommend it to anyone looking for a solid all around
	boat that's very user friendly. The only downside I can see (I'm trying
	to be objective) is that it isn't a very high performance boat... it
	does slice in and out of eddies, etc, but I'm not really into that any-
	way.

	Peace,

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date:  9 Apr 92 16:03:12 GMT

lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:



>What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
>anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.  

	Because they are the ONLY real whitewater boat, not some cheap
plastic toy boat.  When a kayaker approaches any significant drop, he
invariably scurries to shore like some little water flea.  After several
minutes of "soul searching", he either drags his boat along shore like the
worthless piece of luggage it is, or runs the "cheat" route.  On the other
hand, rafts run any type of water up to and including classV-VI.  They
access the situation from the middle of the river, make the appropriate
maneuvers, and conquer all obstacles.  Then they pull over and drink a
beer, several if they happen to be in the company of worthless kayakers.
Rafts are real boats, not some cheap piece of molded plastic you find in
a crackerjack box!  They run any kind of water and are self-sufficient
for indefinite periods of time.  Rafts run right down the middle of all
whitewater, not avoiding it like the toy-boaters.  Personally, I don't
start RAFTING Gore til it gets above 4000cfs, Cross Mountain til it gets
above 10,000 cfs, and Pine Creek and the Poudre Narrows until they get
above 4ft.
-Dennis
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing, Rafting, etc.
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:11:24 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.

(George Flexman) writes:

   From my home in Indiana it is at least an 8 hour drive to
   anything like good whitewater, so after a long drive, very little
   sleep, and a hard days paddling I have little tolerance for the
   drunken yahoos in the campground who keep me awake 'til 2 a.m. with
   their loud music, yelling and assorted foolishness.  For some
   reason these people always seem to be rafters.

Nawwwww.  We drive at least 15 hours to W.Va. or Ktucky from New
England, and when we get there we expect to party all night!  Motels
are even better than campgrounds, 'cause we can knock holes in the
walls and wake the folk in the next rooms.  Indoor fires are fun, too.
Especially those of us who are over 45 need all the beer, dope and
sleep-deprivation we can get to be ready for the Upper Gauley in the
morning.

   They should have their rafts stuffed down their throats and
   inflated.

This is a common technique used by our club members to make room for
one more case of beer.  Sometimes we don't even have to open the
bottles.  Good intravenously, too; cleans the heart right out.  The
rafters do complain about irremovable stains.  Squirt boat swallowing
is strictly passee, but a Mohawk XL-13 is still a mouthful.

   I once went up to the leader of one of these groups after an
   extended heavy metal concert at midnight [...]

"Leader?"  Next you'll be talking about rescue gear.  Look, even the
safety dweebs are getting seriously hurt, and pretty soon we'll have
the same admirable record as the ice climbers.  It's every man for
himself out there.  And women have it worse---they have the smallest
squirt boats and still have to carry all the recreational chemicals.

Lets jump to:

   [...] Among other adventures, I once ran across 4 people in a
   3-man raft, with beer cooler, on section IV of the Chatooga, with
   no helmets or PFDs who had snuck past the ranger at the put-in.

Sheet, nobody wears more than swim trunks and a Burt Reynolds mask on
Section IV, unless they're a wimp.  (You should see Risa Calloway or
Carla Garrison in a Burt Reynolds mask!)  There's even a famous photo
of Jimmy Carter running in a Grumman tandem without helmet, without
bags, and with a guide with no chicken-floater---um---vest.  'Course
Jimmy has one on---nobody's claimin' he's not a wimp.

   And there is also the "One-Lung Bob On the New Gorge at 4'" adventure)

C'mon, George, tell us about this one.

   So there's my 2-cents worth.

See you, and raise you two.  Sure this is silly, but I'm leaving for a
week in W.Va in four days (hide yer shotguns and load yer wimmin), and
it's awfully hard to concentrate on work.

Tastelessly yours,
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
              (Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: djm@ecl.psu.edu (D. J. Medeiros, Penn State Univ.)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Want to learn
Date: 6 Apr 92 10:40:03 EDT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

In article <92093.181434BJM123@psuvm.psu.edu>, BJM123@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
> I would like to learn how to kayak.  Can anyone tell me ways to learn?
> I live in eastern Pa and am very interested in learning how to kayak.
> I read an article in American Forests that talk about Kayak rangers in the
> Forest Service and it sounded like a neat job.  Anyway, any information would
> be a help.  Thanks in advance.
> Cap
> 
> Capt Smokie | Praying we don't destroy all the trees before i get out of
>             | school.  I would like to have a job.
-- 
Your email address indicates you're at Penn State.  Why not contact the 
Penn State Outing Club?  The "canoe" division is mostly decked boaters 
these days, and we teach lessons.  We meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the
month during spring and summer.  You can call me for info - 863-2364 or
237-4331.

Deb Medeiros
IE Dept.
Penn State University
djm@psuecl.bitnet or djm@ecl.psu.edu
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Canal Days Canoe Race (Pennsylvania)
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:20:42 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

Sunday, June 7, 2 PM.  Begins at Conemaugh Dam and ends at
the Saltsburg Bridge (7.3 miles).  Awards: 1st through 5th place.
Classes: OC-1 cruiser, OC-2 cruiser, K-1 slalom, OC-2 short, OC-2 long,
OC-2 mixed, OC-2 over/under, OC-1 solo, OC-2 junior.  Mass start
by class.  Entry fee unknown at the moment.  Sponsored by Keystone
River Runners.

For more information:
		Phil Patz (412) 459-8631
		Don Frew (412) 349-2805
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 06:00:44 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.005650.4420@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> roy@zooks.eng.mcmaster.ca (Roy Underhill) writes:
>In article <ku1q4gINN2mv@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>>Sport is a strange thing.  
>	You are right.  Sport is a very strange thing.
>
>
>>So I'm wondering.  Why do people use canoes for whitewater?
>	Okay.  Thought about it. Here's my answer.
	       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	"Thought about it..."???? Now that's a strange idea for newsgroup
	responses... :-)

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|             o /            ||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ <====<\/====> ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: roy@zooks.eng.mcmaster.ca (Roy Underhill)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Summary: Because we love it
Organization: Mech. Eng., McMaster Univ., Hamilton, ON, Canada
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 00:38:19 GMT

In article <ku1q4gINN2mv@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>Sport is a strange thing.  
	You are right.  Sport is a very strange thing.


>So I'm wondering.  Why do people use canoes for whitewater?
	Okay.  Thought about it. Here's my answer.


	I think that somewhere the point of canoeing in whitewater 
has been missed.  Why go canoeing at all?  Why go kayaking at all?  
Speaking strictly for myself, I canoe in whitewater, and anywhere 
else, because I love it.  I like to paddle them other boats too.  I 
generally have nothing against other peoples decisions about how they 
like to paddle or <fill in favourite sport>.  But, I canoe for the same 
reason that people write plays, or run marathons or admire the scenery.  

	Whitewater is part of canoeing for me and I would not willingly 
give it up.  

	There are a lot of alternatives that are appealing and there
are some drawbacks to canoes.  But I am happy with my canoe and what
it will do with me.  Chacun a son gout (and addictions too).  See you
some time when its not much more than class 3, or else when I'm in my
kayak,


Roy

   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
  Roy Underhill,  (416) 525-9140 x4395   roy@zooks.eng.mcmaster.ca 
  Department of Mechanical Engineering,  McMaster University, 
  Hamilton,  Ontario,  Canada            L8S 4L7
From: ddennis@isis.cs.du.edu (Dave Dennis)
Newsgroups: nyx.misc,rec.boats.paddle
Subject: High Country River Rafters Meeting - Alpenglow - 7:00
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:08:04 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


Hey all you Colorado paddlers (yeah you kayakers too! :-) )

High Country River rafters has a meeting TONITE (yesterday if you read this 
tomorrow) 4/8/92 Wednesday  at Alpenglow Marine, 855 Lupine st, 1 block west
of I-70 off Colfax Avenue.  It's at 7:00PM.  

It's a good club... lots of trips planned, class I to class VI or just beginning
boaters who want to learn about running privately!  

If you miss this one, the next one is April 22.  email or call me at 758-4724
for info.

Dave

--
|Dave Dennis  (ddennis@nyx.cs.du.edu)      |
|"Ilegitimi non carbarundum"               |
|What I say is what *I* say!               |
From: zulauf@orbit.Colorado.EDU (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: what kayak should I get?
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:09:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr13.190933.21133
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Originator: zulauf@orbit

Hello Everybody!

     I'm a beginning kayaker, and thus am a beginner to this group.
I'm interested in buying a used kayak, and need to know what models
would be best for me.  I'm interested in white-water kayaking, with
possibly some extended trips (not too long though.)
     As for my skills, I would say that I am a strong beginner.  I
have a solid C-to-C roll on my good side, and a pretty mediocre roll
to the off side.  I'm fairly proficient at all the basic strokes,
braces, etc.
     I'm interested in getting a boat that won't be too difficult for
me now, but also one that will allow me to progress as a kayaker.
Does anyone have any specific recommendations?  I'd like to keep the
cost low.  I've used Invaders thus far.  How do they rate?  I've also
seen an ad for a Dancer Red for sale (is that a specific model, or is
'Red' just the color?)  How is this boat?  What is a good price for it
assuming it is in good condition?  What can I expect to pay for a
boat such as one I want?  Etc., etc., etc.

                Thanks in advance,
                                    Mike Zulauf
                                    zulauf@orbit.colorado.edu
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: this year's rafts
Date: 11 Apr 92 00:14:49 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <kuc60nINNr3u@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>Now that we've morally justified rafting, and the tupperheads have
>wasted network bandwidth talking about new boats from Perception that
>still don't surpass the Dancer, it's time for the annual Beer Consumer
			 ^^^^^^
	Me and my Corsica will take on your Mirage inspired pig any time :-)

>The Maravias wins all races, downriver and slalom.  That's because
>they are the lightest and have the smoothest hulls.  However, note
>that Sotars have the longest guarantee and are outlasting all other
>brands in rental operations.  At this point the overpriced Avon is
>definitely coasting on its reputation, although it is lighter than

	The problem with the Maravia is that it falls apart. Fast. I mean,
	really fast. Yeah they have warranties to be replaced, but it's a pain
	in the ass, and the warranty doesn't cover as much as it used to. Who
	the hell would use *screws* to hold the thwarts of an inflatable boat
	in?

	The Avons are overpriced, it's true, but they're kind boats (i.e. if
	you're a guide, get your company to buy them.)

	Just my $.00 worth (I'm broke from buying a boat better than
	a Dancer :-))

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
From: djm@ecl.psu.edu (D. J. Medeiros, Penn State Univ.)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Retail fiberglass
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:45:38 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

John Sweet, US 220 South, Mustoe VA  sells boatbuilding supplies (fiberglas,
kevlar, spectra, resin, etc) in single boat quantities.
-- 

Deb Medeiros
IE Dept.
Penn State University
djm@psuecl.bitnet or djm@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: ycheah@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Choosing a SeaKayak: Spectrum S?
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 01:40:37 GMT

I am thinking of buying a sea kayak. My situation is as follows:

	I am presently in Bar Harbor, Maine. and I plan to use this boat I buy
for paddling in lakes and the sea around here. This boat will be a single
seater. I don't plan to do trips longer than 2 days. Since I most probably
won't be paddling in groups, is there a boat that is "safer" than others? I
have had previosu experience in white water kayaking using a Dancer in CLass3-4
comfortably. I have also extensive open water experience in a fiberglass kayak
of unkown make paddling in Malaysian waters (read "Real warm waters"). Given my
planned use, and my previous experience, what would be a good boat for me to
get? I have donw a 4 day trip in a Chinook and liked it. I feel that the
Chinook tracks well to the point that it is a pain to steer. I also feel that
it might be geared more toward a multi day expedition which I won't be doing. I
am now looking at Aquaterra's Spectrum S. Is that a good boat? I didn't, and
won't, get to try it out. Also, I cannot find any other brands around here. Are
there any other boats (I am sure there are) equivalent to the Spectrum? If
there are, how do they compare? What are the critical safety equipment I should
get together with the boat? I am planning on a partial wet suit (just the top).
Is that enough? As you can tell, cold is a big problem for me. I was brought u
in warmer waters. :-)

Any, and all, responses are most welcome.

Yin-chai