From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Value of Womens' Lives (was: _Backlash_)
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:55:32 GMT
	<MUFFY.92Sep28110417@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<6420@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
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In-reply-to: tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu's message of 28 Sep 92 21:03:00 GMT

In article <6420@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.92Sep28110417@remarque.berkeley.edu>, muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>> In article <6403@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood) writes:

>>>If you want examples of men's groups being seen as threatening to women's
>>>groups, get a subscription to Playboy.  (Check out the copies for the blind
>>>at the local library if the pictures offend you).

>> That is very funny, I must say.  I have been looking at the pictures in
>> Playboy since I was about 8-9 years old; my stepfather subscribed and my
>> mother would let us look at the cartoons.  Are you, by any chance,
>> exhibiting some assumptions about feminists here?  I don't find the
>> pictures particularly enthralling or exciting, but I have never been
>> offended by them.

>Funny?  Muffy, it's a riot!  Some feminists are down right rabid about
>nudity and sexuality.

I see it's those logic classes again.  Since "some feminists" are this
way, you think that I must be this way, regardless of what I say or do
in the matter.  Well, it seems pointless to respond to this sort of
distorted vision, so I will stop.  If you're ever inclined to find out
what my views about pornography *actually* are, as opposed to what you
would like to *claim* that they are, feel free to ask.

>So it's not unreasonable to assume that some feminists may not approve of
>Playboy's pictures.  Perhaps you do not feel that these people are true
>feminists.  That's an argument that only "feminists" can debate. 

Surely not?  It has been debated endlessly by anti-feminists, who refuse
to allow those of us who are feminists and anti-censorship and/or
pro-porn to have these views.  Instead you (yes, you personally) *tell*
us that that cannot possibly be what we believe, if we are feminists.

>I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU.  I fight censorship.  People like
>George Bush and you, Muffy, have convinced me that it's important to support
>the ACLU.  I never got involved in this stuff before.

Amazing, because it was people like *you*, who deny that women have any
problems, who made *me* become a feminist.

>(I truly believe that if one's own speech is to be free, one must tolerate
>the free speech of others.

Indeed.   I believe this as well.  Not that you will "tolerate" my
saying so.  You will immediately tell me that this is not what I
believe, no matter how often I say it.

>Since we're asking, Muffy: Who do *you* contribute to and why?

Amnesty International (I believe in human rights), the Rainforest Action
Network (I want to help stop the destruction of the environment), Oxfam
(I think that teaching people skills is more useful than just handing
them money), Planned Parenthood (I think that access to sex and health
information and services is very important), the Haight-Ashbury
Switchboard (they provide services to the homeless, of whom there are
many in San Francisco, and I think that the switchbard is a better place
to put the money than just handing it to people),  the Haight-Ashbury
free clinic (free medical services, similar reasons to the switchboard),
Project Open Hand (they provide meals and other services to people with
AIDS, who could certainly use some bright spots in their day), KQED
(Public Television in my area - it's nice when shows can be shown
without having to find advertisers who think they can therefore control
the content), the  San Francisco Free Shakespeare group (they give free
plays in the park and in schools every year - I like things which
increase education and exposure to the arts).  There are probably a
couple of others, but I can't think of any more that I contribute
regularly to.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn