HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:49:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug18.034918.12202
Organization: University of Washington

In article <901@nazgul.UUCP>, bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
> [ edited ]
> As an aside, there are a lot of idiots who want slaves to work for them. And
> I mean idiots. Slavery used to be common practice worldwide, but it gradually
> died out as the world became more industrialized. It really didn't die out
> because of moral outrage (that was the surface reason). It died out because
> slavery is inefficient compared to work by freemen. With slavery, you extract
> work by coercion and threats of physical punishment. If I was a slave, I would
> work as little as possible, I would sabotage what I could get away with, and
> I would entertain constant thoughts of sticking a knife in my master. If I was
> a master, I would be constantly trying to protect myself from my slaves trying
> to kill me. This situation is certainly not conducive to efficient production.
> Although I have disliked some of the bosses I have worked for, and I have
> employed people, I have never entertained thoughts of abuse of either my
> bosses or employees. I knew if I didn't treat my employees right, they would
> leave, and there was nothing I could do to prevent it. I depended on their
> goodwill and voluntary willingness to work, and I tried to set up attractive
> working conditions for them.

Bzzzzzt.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Firstly, there have been several economic analyses (using traditional
neo-liberal economic statistics) measuring the economic efficiency of
slavery.  These analyses have shown beyond a doubt that slavery was
MORE economically efficient than wage labor.  I refer the curious
reader to the following book for more information:
	_Time on the Cross:  The Economics of American Negro Slavery_
	by Robert William Fogel and Stanley L. Engerman (c) 1974
	Little, Brown, Inc.  ISBN 0316287008

Secondly, there _were_ slave uprisings, but even given these, an
effective system of subversion had been established that had reduced
the number and frequency of such uprisings such that even when such
costs are considered, slavery was still a net win in terms of economic
efficiency.

What to make of this?  Simple.  The economist's traditional definition
of "efficiency" has far less to do with actually quality of life than
the conventional political wisdom assumes it to.

Ironically, Fogel and Engerman's work has attracted a fair share of
criticism from the Left, even though when properly understood, it can
form the basis of an extremely damning criticism of supply-side or
Libertarian economic theories (which tend to attach a great deal of
importance to such "efficiency").

--
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:02:57 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <1992Aug18.034918.12202@u.washington.edu> davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) writes:
/In article <901@nazgul.UUCP>, bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
/> It died out because
/> slavery is inefficient compared to work by freemen.
/Bzzzzzt.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I guess we'll have to disagree. I haven't read your reference, but I'll raise
a couple of examples.
First, in Roman times, the popular notion is that galleys (ocean going ships
powered by oars) were manned by slaves or convicts. The truth is that most
were manned by freemen. The Romans were a practical bunch, having discovered
that you got more work out of freemen working willingly than slaves. Of course,
in cases where productivity was less clear, they still used lots of slaves.
Second, you claim that slavery is more efficient than Libertarian-style
freedom. As a counterexample, I propose that America, from 1776 to now, is
as close to a Libertarian society as has ever been attempted. America has been
the most enormously successful generator of wealth the world has ever seen.
I don't believe the two (freedom and wealth) are mere coincidence.

P.S. The South had slaves, and was poorer than the free North. Hmm. Any book
on the Civil War will tell you that a big reason the North won was they
buried the South with production.

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: gregory@flood.zso.dec.com (Peter Gregory)
Subject: Re: fundamental character of socialism
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:28:29 GMT

In article <MS-C.713586033.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
>Dear Tracy -
>
>     There is a word for the ownership of the means of production by the
>community as opposed to the government.
>
>     That word is `Capitalism'.
>
>     You see, there are these things called `shares' that you can freely buy
>and sell of entities called `corporations'.  If you own as little as one share
>in the corporation, you have a vote in the operation of the company.  What's
>more, the more you buy, the stronger your vote is.

This is a explanation of an American Corporation.  

Webster's New World has the following:
capitalism n. the economic system in which the means of production and
distribution are privately owned and operated for profit

Peter
From: kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:13:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.160901.12964@tc.fluke.COM> witters@tc.fluke.COM (John Witters) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.214051.18646@u.washington.edu> davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) writes:
>>
>>I hate to suddenly cop out of an ongoing discussion, but I'm going
>>to be out of town for about a week so I guess I have to.
>
>Hurray!!!	Hurray!!!	Hurray!!!
>
>Now maybe the rest of us can get back to discussing espresso stands,
>vegetarian restaurants, the weather, the traffic, how lousy the local
>newspapers and TV stations are, and other non-political stuff.  Let's get to
>it folks, we've only got a week before David gets back!

Well...I like reading David's generally well-thought-out posts.
He might be perhaps somewhat less anarchistic/libertarian tham me [ Hey,
David! When you get back, let's start a "I'm more/less anarchistic/libertarian/
uptight/fascist than you" flamewar!  I sense that there's some slack bandwidth
and we can't have that! Also, discourse on pnw.general is getting too sane
and rational!! :) :) ] but I will forgive him :) ...

>(Do I hear a faint cry for a pnw.politics newsgroup?  Naaah.)

Not from me!

[...]
-- 
kurt@grogatch.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
 "People who sign their own .sig are just net.personality wanna-bees." --
 K. Cockrum
From: witters@tc.fluke.COM (John Witters)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:09:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1992Aug19.160901.12964
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <1992Aug18.214051.18646@u.washington.edu> davidb@zeus.ce.washington.edu (David W. Barts) writes:
>
>I hate to suddenly cop out of an ongoing discussion, but I'm going
>to be out of town for about a week so I guess I have to.

Hurray!!!	Hurray!!!	Hurray!!!

Now maybe the rest of us can get back to discussing espresso stands,
vegetarian restaurants, the weather, the traffic, how lousy the local
newspapers and TV stations are, and other non-political stuff.  Let's get to
it folks, we've only got a week before David gets back!

(Do I hear a faint cry for a pnw.politics newsgroup?  Naaah.)

-John (No, I don't drink espresso, but some of my best friends do.) Witters

-- 
    *  *  *		John Witters			voice:	(206) 356-5274
  *  \      *		John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
 *    \      *		P.O.B. 9090 M/S 241F		fax:	(206) 356-5116
*   DRIVING   *		Everett, Washington  98206-9090	     or (206) 356-5174
 *      \    *
  *      \  *		domain:	witters@tc.fluke.COM
    *  *  *		uucp:	{sun,microsoft,uw-beaver}!fluke!witters
Hi! I'm a .signature virus!  Add me to your .signature and join in the fun!
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: billmcc@seanews.akita.com (Bill McCormick)
Subject: Re: fundamental character of socialism 
Organization: SEANEWS - Seattle Public Access News & Mail
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:25:11 GMT

In article <HALL.92Aug12101039@cheetah.cheetah.cs.uidaho.edu> hall@cheetah.cs.uidaho.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.154906.17577@u.washington.edu> monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:
>[deleted]
>>I have no problem with a person reaping the benefits of his efforts, I object
>>to when a minority reap the benefits of a majority.
>
>Me, too.  Let's abolish welfare, medicare and other programs like that
>where people can benefit from my labor!  No-good leeches!
>
>(for the satire impaired, the above two lines were meant in jest)

No satire needed.  We should indeed abolish welfare, medicare, and other
programs like that where people can benefit from my labor -- by
stealing my wealth at gunpoint.

I am more than happy to help the less fortunate.  I am completely
against someone stealing from me, regardless of the justification.

Bill
-- 
SEANEWS  []  Seattle News + Mail  []  Public Access  []  +1 206 937 9529
(hit 'n' to skip uuencoded PGP Public Key)

-------CUT HERE------ PGP Public Key -------CUT HERE------
begin 644 billmcc.pub
MF;  IHJ$*BE-8T-O<FUI8VLL(%=I;&QI86T@0BX@+2!B:6QL;6-C0&%K:71A
M+F-O;>4#+1:_'?W$4B10]AS3R+W6,U"H?15BD"F"OM"1X'F,Y&C1MB+C37$-
MTYQ,;UG9;<$[Z<8V0(]:6/:Z9:)>/D".)1'N -A]:4+Z^K]"5=\2% 5:#;_;
LX0 OX+^P][<42Q8GZ=E]6I =%R*V=W"XHV\GJS&9#05_33*<43FU;14% !';
 
end
-------CUT HERE------ PGP Public Key -------CUT HERE------
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Poor stickum on cash machine postage stamps
Date: 3 Aug 92 18:39:19 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville, Oregon

[]

	"I thought of using scotch tape but someone suggested that that
	is illegal because the post office would not be able to cancel
	the stamp."

In this situation, I frequently use Scotch tape to cover the outermost
millimeter of the stamp -- framing the stamp with tape.  This allows
most of the stamp to be cancelled.  I've never had a problem.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: wix@eskimo.celestial.com (Dennis Wicks)
Subject: Re: Seattle Newspapers
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 14:39:46 GMT

In article <64070@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:
 
>For the real "lost in right field" stuff, tune your AM radio to around
>570.  It's so amusing I've left that as my default station.  So far, the
>only liberal I've heard there is Rush Limbaugh (sp?).  Yes, I know that
      ^^^^^^^                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Huh???
>by most standards, he is conservative, but compared to the people calling
>in other host's programs to talk about the Tri-Lateral Commission and
>the Jewish banking plans to control the world and how AIDS may be part
>of a plot by the Communists and George Bush and the CIA and stuff like
>that, RL is liberal!
>
>--Tim Smith

I'm glad you expanded on that statement, Tim!  The station is KVI and it
is at 570 AM.  Rush is on every day around noon, and either Saturday or
Sunday they rebroadcast selected segments as "The Best of ..."  Even
if you don't agree with him politically, it is pretty entertaining.  
He should go on the road with a night club act!  Some of the things he
says are down right comical!  Also revealing as to what the right wing
conservatives are thinking and proposing from a guy that realy 
believes it!

Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: larryd@milton.u.washington.edu (Larry Desoto)
Subject: Re: fundamental character of socialism 
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:19:16 GMT

monaghan@carson.u.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan) writes:


>Sounds great in theory, unfortunately what is usually the case is that a
>majority of the shares are held by a small clique called the board of
>directors, whose decisions are as often as not intended for their benefit
>and not that of the other minority shareholders. 

Politically correct view but not true.  The board of directors *usually*
holds some stock but it isn't necessarily required.  When I worked for AT&T,
I found I held more stock in the company than most of the directors...

The majority of the shares in most publically traded companies are held by
mutual funds, pension funds, insurance companies, etc.  To my mind, this is
a significant part of the business problem.  The big funds have *no* stake
in most of the companies they hold except profit on the shares.  They trade
shares accordingly and this puts a lot of pressure on the corporate officers
to maximize short term profits to the detriment of long term planning.

The minority stockholders would be in much better shape if the board of
directors and corporate officers *were* required to hold a majority (or
at least significant) interest in the company.  In this case, the board
and the minority stockholders *would* have a common interest in the long
term viability of the company; the 80's corporate raiders being a big
exception to the rule.

>And the workers who produce the product/service aren't paid enough to
>purchase shares, in most cases.

Again, politically correct sentiment but it depends on the company.  A
lot of large companies have savings plans which usually include company
stock options.  AT&T had a number of options and they encouraged employee
participation by paying in an additional 50% of the employee's
contributions up to 6% of pay.  I took the maximum and made out like a
bandit on company stock.  AT&T was reasonably enlightned but certainly
not unique.

>Since the board also decides the compensation of the corporate officers,
>which is rarely tied to the performance of the company, a large disparity
>developes between the workers and the upper management.

Unfortunately this is also true in some companies...

>I have no problem with a person reaping the benefits of his efforts, I object
>to when a minority reap the benefits of a majority.

--
Larry                                   |   Thunder makes all the noise;
                                        |   lightning gets the job done.
larryd@milton.washington.edu
I have my opinion; the university has its own.
From: wardk@ogicse.cse.ogi.edu (Karen Ward)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Undergrad internship in Comp Ling research available
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:29:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.41757
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR


Position:	Full time temporary (10 week) internship in natural language
		processing or computational linguistic research.

Time Frame: 	Fall term 1992.  Exact start date is flexible.

Contact: 	email:   novick@cse.ogi.edu

		US mail: David Novick
  			 Department of Computer Science and Engineering
  			 Oregon Graduate Institute
  			 19600 N.W. von Neumann Drive
  			 Beaverton, OR, 97006-1999

Requirements:    Must be an undergraduate college student.
	
Qualifications:	 Familiarity with the Unix environment, and some background
		 in linguistics, computational linguistics or natural
		 language processing.

Salary:		 $10/hr for 10 weeks



A detailed position description has been posted to misc.jobs.offered.entry.
Please read this before applying.




Karen Ward (wardk@cse.ogi.edu)
Oregon Graduate Institute
From: hall@cheetah.cs.uidaho.edu
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: slavery is not dead yet
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:10:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: cheetah.HALL.92Aug18081049
Organization: University of Idaho, Computer Science Dept.

In article <MS-C.714107162.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

[stuff deleted]

   This is not the case in the remnants of the Communist world or in the Third
   World.  Red China openly admits to practicing slavery under the guise of
   `reforming criminals through labor.'  What Red China does not talk about is
   the regular export of young Chinese girls to the brothels of Southeast Asia.
   Slavery is practiced throughout Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.

Just curious, Mark, but which countries in SEA?  I've been to a few and
I've even been in the brothels, but I don't recall seeing many (if indeed
any) Chinese girls there.  Certainly not in Singapore, and not in Thailand
or the Phillipines (too many domestic models available there - no room for
imports).   While I agree that the Chinese labor reform practices are
*very* reminiscent of slavery, I don't believe the Chinese are exporting
their citizens as prostitutes.

[stuff deleted]

Kelly
--
| Kelly Hall           hall @ leopard.cs.uidaho.edu       |
| "Disclaimer?  We don't need no stinking disclaimer..."  |
Newsgroups: pnw.general,seattle.general,rec.backcountry
From: rdj@adpgate.UUCP (Richard Johnson)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: government still at large (was Re: FDA still at large)
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:11:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: curly.1505
Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR

Walter Bright writes:
::: [People become employed voluntarily, and sign a free-will contract to
::: work under certain conditions.]


And, David W. Barts replies:
:: [But it's an adhesion contract.  People don't really have any strength
:: to negotiate when dealing with big businesses.]


Well, to get this a little more back onto the _government_ thread, I'd
like to share some stuff that recently came to my attention while
"negotiating" for a job.  Basically the old maxim "everything's
negotiable" just aint true.

1.  If the prosepective employee is receiving unemployment insurance
    benefits, (s)he must agree to take ANY offer as a condition of 
	receiving this "insurance" benefit.

	Thus, when looking for work, you are already under a contract -- WITH
	THE GOVERNMENT -- that says you cannot negotiate fairly when dealing
	with a business of any size for a job.


2.  If the prospective employer has a 401-K retirement plan, then it must
	agree to limitations on what it can offer in terms of:

		days and hours each week spent at work
		maximum and minimum number of vacation days
		max and min number of sick days
		max and min number of holiday days
		allowable education benefits
		(and some other stuff I forget)

	Thus, when offering work, the business is already under a contract --
	WITH THE GOVERNMENT -- that says they cannot negotiate fairly when
	dealing with employees of any caliber/requirements for a job.


Granted, in both cases the prospective employee comes out the loser.  I
assert that THAT is largely the fault of theindividual business's legal
department.  Certainly it seems they _could_ offer a good package and
institutionalize it, but that still defeats the idea of freely-entered
contracts.

The point I'm trying to make is that while there is a clear distortion in
the system, part of the blame for the distortion lies inside the D.C.
beltway and not at Boeing's doorstep.  
-- 
Richard Johnson   (rdj%adpgate.uucp@apple.com)   (richard@agora.rain.com)
Illiterate?  Write for free government information.
From: kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Dualistic vs Wholistic...
Summary: the whichness of the why, the similitude of the monotreme
Keywords: parapunctual dysphemic deontic contralogistic polymonistic idempotentates
Date: 22 Aug 92 18:51:22 GMT
	<UNCLE.92Aug18174418@milton.milton.u.washington.edu>
	<1992Aug19.170812.15939@eskimo.celestial.com>
	<1992Aug20.182957.18778@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
	<1992Aug17.162439.27632@eskimo.celestial.com>
Distribution: pnw
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<

Cam Parish, I think you have stated what dualism is rather nicely.
Whether anybody else understood you is another matter!
-- 
kurt@grogatch.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrum)
 "People who sign their own .sig are just net.personality wanna-bees." --
 K. Cockrum
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: re: Shady Seafirst billing practice
Date: 16 Aug 92 02:50:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: Tomobiki.MS-C.713933437.1103527590.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Ray Berry <ray@ole.cdac.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0

I think that if you call and protest the charge, you can get it reversed.  For
future reference, keep in mind that normally Saturdays are not bank `business
days', and it is generally the case that the credit card business of the bank
is separate from the banking done at a branch.  So, while the branch may be
authorized to accept the funds from you, they do so only as your agent to send
the funds to the credit card division, which doesn't get it until Monday.

You may have to write a nastygram as well.  Writing an *effective* nastygram
(as opposed to one which vents steam but accomplishes nothing) is a fine art.
Avoid obscenities or name-calling; assume that the person who will read the
nastygram will be as upset by what happened to you as you are and of course
will reverse the charges out of fairness to you.

In the future, remember that the `due date' on a credit card bill is when it
arrives at the credit card center, and there is almost always a day or more
delay if you pay at a bank branch before the funds reach the credit card
center.  This is particularly true with small banks whose credit card business
is subcontracted to another company, but even happens when the company is the
same.

Consider this.  Suppose I paid my Bank of America VISA card at a Seafirst
branch.  Do you think the payment would be posted immediately, or would it
have to wait until it gets transferred from Seattle to San Francisco?  Well,
Seafirst's credit card division is as separate an organization from Seafirst
consumer banking as Seafirst is from Bank of America, even though they all
have the same owners!

Best bet: pay before the due date.
Newsgroups: pnw.forsale
From: jon@amc.com (Jon Mandrell)
Subject: Garage sale in Duvall
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:21:46 GMT

Saturday and Sunday 8am-5pm.  2 satellite dishes (dish only, no electronics)
lots of clothes, books, electronic "junk" that I have picked up through the
years.  An old motorcycle that I pickd up as a project.

17504 314th Avenue N.E., Duvall

-- 
Jon Mandrell, Applied Microsystems Corp., (jon@amc.com or ..!uunet!amc-gw!jon)
Newsgroups: uw.forsale,pnw.forsale,misc.forsale,misc.forsale.computers
From: bigmouth@milton.u.washington.edu (Shawn Stern)
Subject: Microsoft language products for sale
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 10:30:20 GMT

For sale:

 - Microsoft C/C++ 7.00 with Windows 3.1 SDK and all manuals (including SDK
   manuals, normally $150 alone).  Don't be fooled by upgrades (which do not
   include the SDK manuals), this is the complete package with compiler,
   CodeView, MFC libraries, profiler, SDK tools, etc, etc, etc.  Never
   opened, fully registerable.  Price $225 + shipping

 - Microsoft MASM 6.00  in box with manuals and registration card.  $75.

Newsgroups: pnw.forsale