From: haaser@quince.ssc.gov (Bobby Haaser)
Subject: Re: Time's Arrow Paradox [spoilers]
Organization: SuperConducting Supercollider
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:18:10 GMT


 Hello most excellent Treknophantalists,

In article <BvJt76.7z9@world.std.com>, mdm@world.std.com (Michael D Meachen) writes:
|> In article <BvCA8H.CBI@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> robert@ireq.hydro.qc.ca writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >In article phcr@lynx.unm.edu, kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt "Some Guy" Bose) writes:
|> >>In article <1992Sep27.030335.26463@sol.UVic.CA> jcowling@ophelia.UVic.CA (Scowling Jim Cowling) writes:
|> >>>
|> >>
|> >>I was under the impression that what happened was this.
|> >>
|> >>1. Mark Twain has a pocket watch in the 19th century.
|> >>2. In the cave with our intrepid crew, the watch is cast to the ground.
|> >>3. The watch lies in the cave for 500 years.
|> >>4. In the 24th century, our intrepid crew finds a pocket watch in the cave.
|> >>5. At this point in the chronology of the watch (no pun intended), it is 500
|> >>   years old, on the Enterprise.
|> >>6. On the Enterprise, the crew returns from Devidia II, with Mark Twain in
|> >>   tow.
|> >>7. Twain finds and retrieves his watch (now 500 years old).
|> >>8. Twain returns to the 19th century, with his 500 year old watch with him.
|> >>9. Back in the cave, after Picard has left, Twain notices his watch on the
|> >>   ground (the "new" watch, not the 500 year old one).
|> >>10.Twain picks the watch up, but, either remembering the watch in his pocket
|> >>   or mindful of paradox, replaces the new watch on the cave floor.
|> >
|> >10. Twain picks the watch up to put it in is pocket and found out there is
|> >already one (the one 500 hundred year old) and then replace it back on the 
|> >ground to let it fulfill it destiny :-)
|> >
|> >

   ABOSLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!
  -----------------------



|> 
|> >Robert Meunier                     Institut de Recherche d'Hydro-Quebec
|> >Ingenieur                          1800 Montee Ste-Julie, Varennes
|> >Internet: robert@ireq.hydro.qc.ca  Qc, Canada, J3X 1S1 
|> >maintainer: BASIC mailing list request to basic-request@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
|> 
|>  I think the most interest aspect of TAII, at least structurally, is the
|> comparison between the two machines which survive the "temporal rift":
|> Data's Head vs Twain's Watch.
|> 
|>  Data's Head moves forward in time with one large 500 year detour (loop),
|> while Twain's watch is "lost" to eternity by becoming stuck in that same
|> 500 year loop, constantly being returned to that starting point of the
|> loop in the 19th century. 

 I just whould like to ask one question: whose frame of reference are
  you looking from when you say  "lost to eternity and becoming stuck
  in the five year loop"?  

   >> Perspective of watch:  1) Twain receives watch probably as a gift in
                                  the 19th century.  
                             2) It is dropped on the floor
                                  of the cavern in the 19th century.  
                             3) It is picked up by the Enterprize crew 
                                  in 24th century.
                             4) It is brought back by Twain to the 19th
                                  century.
                             5) And then is Twain's property for the
                                  rest of his natural life.
                             6) Since it is not seen in future times
                                  in places other than the cave, one
                                  can speculate that either it was
                                  destroyed or buried with Twain.
                             7) Forever in the 6) state.

   >> Perspective of Twain:  1) Receives or buys watch
                             2) Looses it on the cavern floor
                                  (not realizing)
                             3) finds his watch on the Enterprze 
                                  500 years later.
                             4) comes back to 19th century, sees the
                                  watch that he dropped right after
                                  he dropped it.
                             5) Since he is going to pick it up in the
                                  24th century anyway, he leaves the 
                                  watch that he saw on the cave floor
                                  there.
                             6) Lives the rest of his life with the watch
                                  he picked up in the 24th centural
  
 I SEE NO ETERNAL LOOP!!!!!
 What other perspectives are there??
   Enterprise crew??

  >> Enterprise crew:  1) Find Twain's watch after it had been left there 500
                            years.
                       2) Go back and witness the event of the dropping
                       3) When Twain takes his watch back >> they see
                            no more watch on the enterprize!
                          Why??? - because the rest of its life expired in the
                            hands of Mark Twain after he returned to the 19th
                            century SOMEWHRE OTHER THAN THE CAVE!
                       4) It is either destroyed of buried with him at his death.
 
  
  THERE ARE NO PARADOXES HERE!!!!!  
 
  All the frames of reference show the same events occuring.

  TIME IS COMPLETELY LINEAR in this case with a single loop
    that describes the placement of the watch at different times
    in the same timeframe.  


 Ah, if you look at a timeline: remember that time for human beings
 and any object in this universe experiences time forward.

 They can jump into the past by redefining the starting point at
  which they measure time.  You may think you see an eternal loop,
  but THERE IS JUST ONE LOOP! created by the time distortion that
  effects the watch.

  Hope this clears things up as far as true temporal loops.

  I realize that in other STTNG episodes there are trans-
  dimensional time loops<ex.> the events with Sela(Tasha Yar's
  half Romulan Daughter).  It is NOT a true timeloop since
  causality does not work precisely here.


Live Long and Prosper!

  -the Bobinater

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also haaser@phys.udallas.edu


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