HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (rini)
Subject: Re: Catharine MacKinnon, Playboy and feminist propaganda
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:57:11 GMT

In article <718485198@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
>#I think Playboy *does* portray women just as sex objects (interview responses
>#notwithstanding), and I'm sure it is offensive, 
>
>%Please spell out for me why _Playboy_ is offensive.
>
>In article <1992Oct7.163050.9941@ils.nwu.edu> lynch@ils.nwu.edu 
>(Richard Lynch) writes:
>
>>Forgive me for not specifying at that particular point "offensive TO SOME
>>PEOPLE INCLUDING MACKINNON".  I belive 
>
>Please explain why is it so offensive for them.

Oh please, is that really necessary?  How 'bout I'll tell you why
I think Ladies' Home Journal is offensive, just to give you an
idea of how this works:  It generally portrays women as inherenly 
interested in cooking, clipping coupons, and darning socks.  I 
think that's dumb.  I'm offended.  It offends my intelligence.

It doesn't take much intuition to guess that maybe they dislike
airbrushed women posing on pink satin with a wanton look in their
eyes.  Then, again, maybe I'm wrong.  Does it *really* matter?
Who cares?  Some people are offended by burping and farting.
BFD.  Why does it matter *why*?  What *is* your point?

>#Aside:  I'd sure go for a no-parole and/or death-penalty for rapists, tho.
>#There's way too high a % of repeat offenders.  I forgot the #, sorry.]
>
>There was a NightLine program yesterday about a man who was convicted of
>rape (it was her word against his).  When DNA testing became available in
>1988 he asked that the evidence would be re-examed, and the prosecutors 
>blocked his way till now.  Now the DNA test showed that it was not him.

Yes, this is the problem with the death penalty.  I can't find the
statistic (where *did* that book go???) but Harper's had something in
their index which gave the number of people killed by the death
penalty who were later found to innocent.  Well, damned if I can't
find the number, but 21 rings a bell.  (??)   And those are just
the ones who were *found* to be innocent, for sure.  I'm sure there
were many who *were* innocent, but it couldn't be proven.

Anyway, mistaken conviction is certainly not unique to rape cases.

>Hillel                                        gazit@cs.duke.edu

rini

(Still looking for that book...)
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Prostitution as a cure for rape
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:21:45 GMT

In article <Bvrqst.9Gv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.094333.5298@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>At the risk of spoiling your innocence, I'll tell you that sex can
>>indeed be purchased in every state.  
>
>Wrong.  It's illegal here in Indiana.
>
   ljf didn't say anything about legality. The point was that thinking
of using prostitution as a cure for anything is confounded by the fact
that it is already ubiquitous.

   Certainly prostitution is present in all areas of the US. I wonder what
the relationship is in places were there is little or no prostitution (if
there is any such place).

   What about areas where prostitution is common and cheap? Like Thialand.
I suspect that when prostitution becomes too common, is takes the form of
exploitation, and starts to overlap with rape. Certainly Thialand is not
being successful at protecting children from sexual exploitation.

DanZ

>>And no, I don't think rape levels would drop because rape has very
>>little to do with sexual deprivation and much to do with power and
>>violence.
>
>Duhhh.  Rape IS violence.  Someone doesn't rape because they want to be
>violent.  A guy doesn't think "Oh boy, I want to have some power, so I'll go
>rape."  Think about it.  The rapist is hornier than all hell, and wants to
>satisfy urges QUICK, so he rapes.  I've talked with victims of rape and a few
>rapists (unfortunately).
>
>-- 
>Sam Hulick          | "The direction of the eye, so misleading.  The defection
>shulick@indiana.edu | of the soul, nauseously quick."  --Pearl Jam
>(NeXTmail welcome)  | 


-- 
    "I think it is a little premature to attribute the failures of American
     foriegn policy to Carl Kadie."
                                                     -Mike Godwin
This article for entertainment purposes only.
From: jwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Jeff Wilson)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: This whole Lot thing ...
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:03:46 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

<1992Oct5.162018.18849@netcom.com> <1992Oct05.202930.16751@brtph560.bnr.ca>

In <1992Oct05.202930.16751@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
writes:

Whole lotta junk deleted dealing with Lot's happy family ...
>KimmyD

>P.S:  Once again I think this entire debate belongs elsewhere.

You're absolutely right. It belongs in
alt.all-powerful.God.sacrifice.children.starve.Africans.yeah.GOOD.GOD
-- 
jwilson@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com (Jeff Wilson)

" ...and a man so mean he once shot himself just for snoring too loud!"- Crow
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Catharine MacKinnon, Playboy and feminist propaganda
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:40:00 GMT
 <718485198@lear.cs.duke.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <718485198@lear.cs.duke.edu>
gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:

> A death penalty will *screw* people like him, while "the good guys" will
> be able to walk around it because the jury will refuse to execute
> them when they are not *sure* about such nice guys.

This is true for crimes other than rape.  Does this mean you are
opposed to the death penalty altogether?  If so, good for you.  I know
I don't trust our courts not to kill innocent people.
From: sg2a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sarah Graham Gibby)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Date Rape and its aftermath
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:34:12 GMT
Organization: Senior, Design, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

True "walking differently" and acting well-composed are characteristics
that should scare off any "weirdos" as you call them, but it doesn't
have much baring on the issue of date rape.


Date rape is something that occurs to one out of every six college women
and more often than not it is by someone she knows. Ninety percent of
the time rapes involve alcohol.


Women can be strong and assertive and confident in nature and still be
raped on a date. They can have a black belt in judo or karate or some
other organization of self-defense.  The point is that a large majority
of rapes, especially on colege campuses, are committed by people women
know and have felt they can trust.

The problem lies in understanding that "no" means  "no" and not "maybe."
Some men don't understand that or have more trouble comprehending that
after a few drinks. And with other men, intoxicated or not, they still
don't get the message.

Clear communication is something we need to better educate our children
with and ourselves.

Also, I believe that people need to realize that rape has dramatic and
long lasting effects on its victims.  While a woman is taken advantage
of physically, thus losing control over her own body to another person,
she also loses her own sense of self- trust, in her own life and
activites she ivolves herself in, as well as losing her trust in others
with whom she comes into contact with from that moment forward.  It may
seem like nothing to those with whom it has never happened to, but
believe me, it is a long and painful journey to recovery.



Sarah G. Gibby
From: stm3f@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Sarah Thomas Mumford)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: How to stop rape ..
Date: 11 Oct 92 17:25:35 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

Trying to completely ban all public expressions of is not going
to do anygood except repress people even more.  It is not the
pornographic aspect of art that causes people to rape and it is
certainly not the clothes women wear! There is a huge gap
between the mentality of rapists and those of stable people.
Many were abused in their childhood and were never taught how
to deal with anger etc. any other way - others have
psychological imbalances.  Killing one rapist will probably
have little effect on the decisions of another.
     And it is extremely sexist of someone to say that women
should not wear certain clothing or that such clothing is the
cause of their being raped.  We are past the time when rape was
thought of as the woman's fault.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: RE: Prostitution as a cure for rape
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:07:17 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <12OCT92.15391139@verbis.waisman.wisc.edu>, kingston@verbis.waisman.wisc.edu writes:
> from what I see on t.v., those prostitutes look "very" consenting.  They
> damn well are consenting to fornication.  Whether they do it for
> drugs, money, they are consenting.  HOWEVER, are pimps still in existance?

I don't believe that I have to tell someone not to believe all they see on tv.

I am interested in your definition of consent and how you differientate between
it and submission

Pimps are alive and well.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: gee@col.hp.com (Ken Gee)
Subject: Women's Empowerment Seminar
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:39:01 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division


Seminar Announcement:

	Womens Empowerment: Coping in the Age of Tailhook
	  Develop Self-Protection as a Lifestyle

sponsored by Colorado NOW

Issues:
	Sexual Harassment
	Physical Self-Protection
	Gender Communications

Location:
	First Baptist Church
	14th & Grant
	Denver,CO

Time:
	9 AM - 1:30 PM
	Saturday, Oct.,17

Cost:
	Advanced registration:  (by Oct.14)
			Single: $40.00
		With a Friend : $70.00 for 2

	At the door: $50.00

Advanced Registration:
	Name, Phone number, and Check to:
					Colorado NOW
					1552 Pennsylvania St.
					Denver, CO
					80203
	Check payable to Colorado NOW

Proceeds go to EPOCOLORADO to defeat Amendment 2
From: u9a36@seq1.keele.ac.uk
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: How to Stop a rape
Date: 15 Oct 1992 12:51:58 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
X-Unparseable-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 18:24:06 WET DST

	
	Firstly I'd like to echo the words of Sean Ormond as conserns
	Karate as defence from rape.  There are good dojos but the number
	of bad ones far out number the good ones.

	Secondly Karate is not an Art i would recomend for self-defence
	from rape.  It is a wonderful art for competition and for keeping fit
	it is not much good in the intimate zone (<2feet from your body)
	as you need room to swing/maneuvere.  Although I've never tied it
	I am told that Aikido is good for self defence where the attaker
	is going to be close and space is likely to ber tight.

	An interesting point about Karate that most sensei (sp?) don't mention
	is that yoyu'll be told that Karate develop[ed in Japan when the 
	peasents were banned from carrying weapons but had to defend themselves.
	This is Partial Bullsh*t.  Karate is a very small part of an art
	called Okinwan (sp?) which did develop, for the above reason but
	is based around weapons which are or can be discuised as farm tools
	eg the rice flail.  Okin wan is use ful in selfdefence (though agian you
	need space but is sadly illegal in many countries since it is lethal
	is used.

	As for guns well over here in ther UK we cannot carry them, agsain you
	need space and also you'll probably find that if you use it you'll spend
	a long time in prision or, more likely given the current political
	situatuion, on death row.


-- 
				Stephen Booth

--

   |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
   | University of Keele, Keele       |            u9a36@uk.ac.keele.seq1 |
   | All normal disclaimers apply     |            u9a36@seq1.keele.ac.uk |
   |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

                        STOP CAPITAL PUNISHMENT NOW


Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Prostitution as a cure for rape
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:24:38 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Bvrqst.9Gv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu 
(Sam Hulick) writes:
> In article <1992Oct7.094333.5298@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>At the risk of spoiling your innocence, I'll tell you that sex can
>>indeed be purchased in every state.  
> 
> Wrong.  It's illegal here in Indiana.

You have confused what can be purchased, and what can be purchased legally. 
Prostitution is illegal in all states except Nevada, but prostitutes can be
found uin all 50 states nontheless.

> Duhhh.  

Are all your arguments this valuable?

> Rape IS violence.  Someone doesn't rape because they want to be
> violent.  A guy doesn't think "Oh boy, I want to have some power, so I'll go
> rape."  Think about it.  The rapist is hornier than all hell, and wants to
> satisfy urges QUICK, so he rapes.  I've talked with victims of rape and a few
> rapists (unfortunately).

And others have talked to rapists as well.  Lots of research on the topic. 
Check it out in Psych Abs. What differentiates a horny rapist from someone who 
is horny and satisfies urges with their hand is the belief that they are 
somehow "entitled" to use an  unwilling person as a vehicle for satisfying 
those urges.

Some additional data:

 - Many rapists don't continue until they orgasm.

 - I know several lesbians who got raped by men who felt that that would
convince them to become heterosexual.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: Re: Holzman doesn't buckle under to Posey's macho shit
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 12:16:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.150832.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
In article <1992Oct06.143106.2767@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey 
P920) writes:
>>... my tax dollars and get busy smashin' atoms or whatever useless activity
>>you get paid to engage in.  Unless I speak to you directly then keep your
>>mouth shut.  Are you readin' me Cosgrove Jr.?  
> 
>You can take this response as me telling you to take your attitude and orders 
>and shove them up your evil part.  If you don't want to talk to me, stop
>responding.

And you can take this as my invitation for you to try expiditing that little
project yourself.  How 'bout it old man?  But then we both know you ain't got
the guts.  Incredible how network anonymity bolsters one courage 'eh Danbo?
I'll bet you ain't got the hair to talk like that to my face.

>>If not then let's take this off-line and stop clutterin' up talk.rape.  This 
>>is the wrong forum for either of us to espouse our religious views.
>
>Feel free to redirect to talk.religion.misc.

After thinking about it, this ain't about religion it's about two people who
don't like each other.  Whaddya say we take it to alt.flame.  Better venue
I think.  

KimmyD
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Subject: Re: Prostitution as a cure for rape
Organization: Vallen Software
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 01:51:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.201910.1903@gacvx2.gac.edu> emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp) writes:
>Legalizing prostitution would only lower rape, then, if rape were "prostitution."
>Selling rape? Would they go for it? And who in the world would want to sell them-
>selves to be raped?!?!? Kinda like eating children during a famine, huh.

Get your terms straight.  Rape is forced sexual activity against an unwilling
person.  Prostitutes are not being raped, they're consenting.

-- 
Sam Hulick          | "The direction of the eye, so misleading.  The defection
shulick@indiana.edu | of the soul, nauseously quick."  --Pearl Jam
(NeXTmail welcome)  | 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: parker@ehsn17.cen.uiuc.edu ()
Subject: Re: This whole Lot thing ...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:16:37 GMT

kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>Jeff, I got a news flash for ya.  God sacrificed His son for you.  He sent Him
>to a hideous, shameful and agonizing death as payment for the crimes that YOU
>have committed.  Even though He was innocent and didn't deserve to be punished,
>He spent 3 days in hell to atone for YOUR sins.  Think about it man.  If I were
>you I'd check myself out just in case this Christianity thing is for real.

>KimmyD

I've got a "news flash" for *you*.  None of us where commiting any "crimes" or
engaging in any immoral behavior or even *born* when that aledgedly happened.
(What happened to the innocence of the unborn that pro-lifers--many of whom I
expect are devout Christians--believe in?)

Seconly, the story of Abraham was long before Christ.  You seem to have a
strange perception of time...  8-)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Subject: Re: What about date rape? (was: Prostitution as a cure...)
Organization: Vallen Software
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:44:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.145323.18214@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>   What about date rape?
>   Let's say that prostitution was not only availible, but safe from
>disease (as legal pros. is), and convenient. Would this then lead to a
>detectable decrease in date rape?
>   In at least some of the date rape cases I hAve heard of, it seems that
>the situation was one where the attacker very much desired sexual activity,
>but consent was not forthcoming. It seems to me that these cases could be
>subject to interference by the proximity of prostitution.

In date rape, the rapist is WITH a certain girl and therefore has sexual
feelings towards her and only her at that moment.  So it's not reallly likely
that he'll just say "Goodbye," leave the place, and go find a prostitute.
He'll want sex there and now.

>   BTW, the cure for sexual deprivation is masturbation. In societies where

Do you think all guys are going to do this?  No, after some time, they're going
to think "I'm sick of this!" and go out for "the real thing."

-- 
Sam Hulick          | "The direction of the eye, so misleading.  The defection
shulick@indiana.edu | of the soul, nauseously quick."  --Pearl Jam
(NeXTmail welcome)  | 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: This whole Lot thing ...
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:00:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct05.133348.10088@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
> Let me just clear this Lot situation up for you people.  Lot did THE ONLY
> THING that could have saved his guests AND his family from the Enemy.  If Lot
> had agreed to allow his guests to be victimized then his whole family would
> have suffered the same fate as the rest of the people of that city.  If he
> had refused their demands completely and barricaded the door then his family
> and friends WOULD HAVE BEEN RAPED AND KILLED.  The point is that Lot was
> WILLING to sacrifice his daughters.  God seeing Lot's willingness to surrender 
> himself and his family counted that obedience as righteousness and SAVED LOT'S
> FAMILY INCLUDING HIS DAUGHTERS.  It was not the act of offering his daughters
> to be raped that was righteous, but his willingness to do so.  This O.T. story
> has nothing to do with 'Family Values'.  It has everything to do with trusting
> God.  Lot knew that God made him and his daughters as well, and that God had
> every right to do whatever with them he pleased.  He also knew that God loved
> (and still does love) his daughters and therefore would not allow them to be
> harmed unless it furthered His purpose.  And further more if they were hurt
> then God would not only heal that hurt but reward them many fold for their
> obedience.  But of course we know that God rewarded Lot and saved his house-
> hold from destruction.  Excluding his wife who DID NOT OBEY GOD'S COMMANDS.
> 
> There are tons of other examples of people doing things in the O.T. that really
> don't seem like moral behavior.  You've got to read the whole story including
> the N.T. (that's for you Holzman) for it to make sense.  Also, you can't just
> read it like a textbook.  You have to open your soul and spirit and let it
> speak to you.  I think alot of folks fail to do that and end up angry and
> confused about the true message God is sending.
> 
> KimmyD
> 
> P.S.: I'm wondering if this discussion shouldn't be continued elsewhere.  I
> was on vacation for one week and found 70 new messages here when I got back.
> Most of that bandwidth seemed to be used in this thread.


Here! Here!
--Ray Cote
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: parker@ehsn17.cen.uiuc.edu ()
Subject: Re: Prostitution as a cure for rape
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:48:59 GMT

shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>If prostitution were legal in every state in USA, do you suppose the rapes
>committed would drop drastically?  Most rapes occur because of sexual
>deprivation, and thus aggression builds up, etc.  So if sex could be purchased
>in every state, wouldn't rape level drop?  And I don't think the abuse of
>prostitutes would be a problem, if the area was posted with guards, or the
>prostitutes had some sort of defense.  What do you think?  I'm just damned sick
>of the rape around here (Bloomington, IN).  It's really getting to people
>around here.  "STOP RAPE" is written all over sidewalks on campus, and "DEAD
>MEN DON'T RAPE."  It's a serious, damaging thing, and I think people would go
>to almost any measure to stop it.

>-- 
>Sam Hulick          | "The direction of the eye, so misleading.  The defection
>shulick@indiana.edu | of the soul, nauseously quick."  --Pearl Jam
>(NeXTmail welcome)  | 

I don't think legalizing (and guarding) prostitution would have much of an
impact on the occurance of rape.  I once attended a discussion on date rape,
and the leader described one difference between "date" rape and other rape as:
"stranger" rape is using sex to be violent..."date" rape is using violence to
have sex.  (I had to think about that for a while before I agreed with it.)

Those who commit rape of any sort, aren't just desperate for sex (they could
always find an illegal prostitute, I would think), they want it in a certain
way.  In one case they want to brutilize the woman (for whatever sick motives);
in the other they want to dominate the woman.  For both of them I don't think
that sex with a willin'-beacause-you're-payin' prostitute would do.


As to whether or not prostitution should be legal...I haven't formed a complete
opinion and I'll spare you my ramblings.  8-)
Newsgroups: talk.rape