HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bday@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Brian Day)
Subject: Re: 4th Step
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:28:05 GMT

heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:

>	What I'd like is to hear from other people about how they did
>it. I'm writing my inventory freestyle, because there don't seem to be
>any definite formulas on how to do it.

Sure there are.  I tried doing it the way the BB says, and just couldn't
come up with anything useful.  So I went the freehand route and came up
with about 15 pages.  When I took it to my sponsor, he said "What the
hell's this ?????!!!!!  You've obviously put a lot of effort into this.
Now go do it like the BB says."  Once I had it all down on paper, it was
much easier for me to translate it into the 'tabular' format in the book.

Remember, the whole point of the inventory is to see where _we_ were at
fault.  The last column (not shown explicitly in the BB) is the basis
for the rest of our recovery.  More about that when you're ready for
Step 5.    8-)

>I'm finding my own way and that
>seems to work. It's also what others have reccomended to me.

Any questions, talk to your SPONSOR.  Yup, it has to be _our own_
inventory, and as such requires a lot of inner searching.  But take
his suggestions, pray for honesty and the ability to be thorough
before starting, and go for it.

>	One peice of advice I'm following is to tell other people (in
>the program) about what I'm doing, going to meetings, talking to my
>sponsor, instead of isolating with my inventory.

Good advice.

>	So let me hear from those of you who have done the 4th step
>and survived. *grin* You'll be doing a lot toward helping me stay
>sober.

And I'll be doing a lot toward helping _me_ stay sober too.
That's the deal.

bd, alcoholic
-- 
Brian Day                                       bday@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov
New Technology, Inc.                            (205) 461-4584
Mission Software Development Division           Opinions are my own -
Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntspatch, AL    May be fatal if swallowed
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support,alt.config
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Codependency Newsgroup...
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:47:45 GMT

Hi...  Due to the advice of _many_ Netters, I am going to skip the
official Call for Votes for the proposed newsgroup alt.recovery.codependency.
(Since it's an alt group, most people think it's overkill to follow
essentially the same process as that for groups in other areas of the
news hierarchy.)

I wanted to let people know so that anyone who has not given me their
opinion on it and still wants to will have the chance before a final
decision is made.  I have received feedback from the following people:

lewis@kpc.com                          MCARTER@BENTLEY.BITNET
shafer@ursa_major.spdcc.com            apurmal@us.oracle.com
hollasch@kpc.com                       GE.KMK@forsythe.stanford.edu
diannes@u.washington.edu               dgs@sfi.santafe.edu
JTULLI@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU              porta@wam.umd.edu
kpscarr@leland.Stanford.Edu            jstc_ss@troi.cc.rochester.edu
joyce@apple.com                        dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu
enigma@netcom.com

Again, please let me know if you would/would not like to see the
group alt.recovery.codependency created.  (If you are not already
on the above list.)

Thank you.

:)
Angela


-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dgs@sfi.santafe.edu (David G. Simmons)
Subject: Re: 4th Step
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 18:33:54 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute

In article <C1F8on.17z@athena.cs.uga.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
> [deletia]
>	What I'd like is to hear from other people about how they did
>it. I'm writing my inventory freestyle, because there don't seem to be
>any definite formulas on how to do it. I'm finding my own way and that
>seems to work. It's also what others have reccomended to me. But I
>still want to hear from other people about it.

There are certainly some very specific guidelines for how to do a 4th
step in the Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous), and the 12 & 12 (Twelve
Steps and Twelve Traditions).  Both of these have some excellent
guidlines on doing a "Searching and Fearless moral inventory."  I
would also suggest the Al-Anon pamphlet "Inventory Blueprint" (I
think it's called).  I know, I know, it's heretical to suggest an
*Al-Anon* pamphlet for AA use ( ;-) ), but it is *really* good, very
thorough, and clear.  Of course, all of this is just suggestion ;-)

>	One peice of advice I'm following is to tell other people (in
>the program) about what I'm doing, going to meetings, talking to my
>sponsor, instead of isolating with my inventory. If I tried it any
>other way I'd go crazy.
Great advice!  I *never* would have survived doing a 4th step wiithout
letting people know what I was doing.  It's the only way!

-David
dgs@sfi.santafe.edu
-- 
David G. Simmons	"New Mexico...Land of the flea,
davids@lanl.gov 	 Home of the Plague..."
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Agnostics in recovery (was Re: advice wanted ...).
Date: 28 Jan 93 05:53:37 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

|hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt) writes:
|>He has gone to some AA meetings, but I think he feels uncomfortable
|>with the importance of a "higher power" in the group's thinking (I
|>suspect I would be too, for that matter).

I too have been walking this walk, and have had a lot of trouble with
the language.

I am closer to being a Zen Buddhist than anything else, and I find the
idea of begging God for help to be counter-intuitive. I know some
old-timers will tell you, "never mind counter-intuitive, just do it
anyway, and see if it works or not."

I do agree with them.

I also found that many phrases in the lingo translate well into Zen.
For instance, "turn it over to my higher power" really means, "Accept
what will be, concentrate on what is" -- a venerated Zen idea.

One excellent set of books is published by the Mountain View Zen
Center (here in Mountain View, California). It includes four great
books:
	THE KEY (and the name of the key is willingness)
	That which you are seeking is causing you to seek
	The Depression Book (Depression as an opportunity for
		spiritual practice)
	THE HOW (you do anything is how you do everything) BOOK
(The books do not have authors listed)

These books do not mention 12-steps or recovery per se, but one can
hardly read through them without seeing how they apply.

Nor do these books ever explicitly mention Zen or any kind of
religion. They concentrate on spirituality as separate from religion,
and help you to realize what you have control over, and what you do
not. In AA lingo, (and in a recent shampoo commercial, of all places!)
"knowing what to sweat and what to let go."

I also found a brand new book called, promisingly enough, "The Zen of
Recovery". The author, Mel Ash, is both a 10-year-sober alcoholic and
an accredited Zen teacher. Although I haven't read very far into the
book, I do know two things: it is very explicitly about 12-step
programs and about Zen, and it is a veyr beautiful and interesting
book.

I hope to write in a few weeks, "this book changed my life".

We'll see.

bill coderre,
recovering co-dependent
3 months and counting....
From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (P. Andrew Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Codependency and CoA topics
Date: 28 Jan 1993 13:22:26 -0600
Organization: Laboratory for Applied Logic
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Just seems to me, and this is just my opinion from my
vantage point here, so it all may be invalid....   but....

Those of you who have bitching about there not being
enough codependency and child of alcoholic topics
being discussed and therefore you need a newgroup of
your own....

Might I suggest that instead of, or in addition to,
bitching about there not being the topics discussed,
that you bring up and discuss one or two topics.

As the Big Book directs us drunks, "God will show you
how to create the fellowship you crave."

That means I stop relying on other people to do the
work and start the discussions.  I start the discussions
myself.

Ignore me if you want.

Phil W. (Moscow, ID)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: My Sobriety
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:49:04 GMT

  I have been reading this group now for about 4 months, but I've
never posted here before. The truth is that I don't remember
whether I ever posted anything here before. Anyway, I've been
sober 16 days now, and I had a desire to let everyone know 
about it. I still don't like to talk about myself too much,
but I will say that this is a drastic improvment over what I
was doing before. Have a good one!
			-Bruce-
From: roise@sumax.seattleu.edu (Linda Roise)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: advice wanted on helping alcoholic relative
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:07:01
Organization: Seattle University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu
In-reply-to: hunt@shy.umd.edu's message of 25 Jan 93 09:25:28 GMT

In article <hunt.727953928@shy.umd.edu> hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt) writes:

   Has anyone had the experience with oneself or someone else
   that alcohol abuse has arisen as a stress-related problem and has
   ceased to be a problem when the source of stress has been resolved?
   Does anyone feel that hoping for this scenario is entirely
   unrealistic?

Yes, I think it is likely entirely unrealistic, if alcoholism is the
problem.  

To get alcoholism, you have to put alcohol together with a person,
usually a person who is "predisposed" to become alcoholic,
genetically, culturally or both.

Stress can provide a platform from which to jump into drinking, to
alleviate the stress.  And it usually works, for a while, which is why
we repeat the process.

But regardless of why I started drinking, if I have developed
alcoholism as a result, then I need to quit drinking--through AA,
treatment, or (preferably) both.  For some reason, once alcoholism has
its hooks in us, it no longer cares how it got there in the first
place.  It takes on a life of its own.

But while I'm recovering from my alcoholism, AA provides alternative
ways of handing stress, in the form of "suggestions."

   I think I'll check out Al-Anon too, though I get the sense that
   some here may be opposed to their philosophy--any input on that
   would be appreciated too.  Thanks for your time,

Al-Anon is a spinoff program from AA, even though it is a separate
organization.  People on this newsgroup who are in AA are _probably_
not opposed to Al-Anon's philosophy, but then we are often mavericks!
:)

One of the things Al-Anon tries to stress is for the Al-Anon to focus
on his/her own life rather than the life of the alcoholic.  That
sometimes sounds like rejecting the alcoholic, but it's called
"detachment with love."  

One of the things that _helps_ the alcoholic, when the Al-Anon is able
to detach with love, is that the Al-Anon is no longer running around
caretaking the alcoholic, which then sometimes has the blessed
side-effect of pulling the rug out from under tha alcoholic so s/he
can hit bottom.

It takes a lot of practice to be able to do this very well, and most
of us talk about not ever quite getting it "right."  That's why I
highly recommend Al-Anon, as a place to practice, and to get support.

Linda
Seattle
--
---------------------  InterNet: roise@sumax.seattleu.edu or @u.washington.edu
 Linda Roise, Seattle  America Online & Delphi: ___________________ LINDAROISE
---------------------  Prodigy: JXCX33A   FREENET: aj023@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Trying to answer hartman....
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:32:15 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

My messages keep bouncing, but this can go out to the Net, it's relevant...

In your letter, you write:
>I would suggest getting your terms straight.  ACA's and codependants
>may have a fair bit of overlap, but they are two separate groups with
>separate issues & problems to be addressed.

>Codependants include spouses, parents, siblins & other family.  Anyone 
>who enables the addicted person to continue in his behaviour.

>ACA's may be purely victims, without ever having contributed
>to the addicted person's ability to continue in his behavior.

>These seem to justify separate groups, parallel to the .recovery
>group that you already mentioned.

>You have my permission to repost this reply in the news groups if 
>you think it will help the discussion.

>		-Richard Hartman
>		hartman@ulogic.COM


My reply:

Thank you for your input.  I'm sorry if it was unclear to you from
my post, but the intention of the proposed group is for
(recovering) codependents, _especially_ those who are also ACoAs.
I recognize that there is a difference, and in fact, I have been to
meetings of both types.  

For the moment, it appears that a single spinoff group would be
sufficient.  If the readership & traffic increases significantly,
there is always the possibility of further spinoffs.  It would
certainly fall within the group charter to discuss ACoAs who do not
have the associated codependency problems.  Also, there are some
books which define "codependent" as, essentially, anyone who is 
dependent on an addict (an addict = someone with destructive, compulsive
behavior).  A person who enables the addict to continue their 
destructive behavior patterns is termed an "enabler."  At any
rate, by some definitions, a child of an addict is a codependent,
although their dependency is physical (financial, etc.), not
necessarily emotional.  An adult child of an addict would be a former
codependent on the addict, and usually still is.

I appreciate your insight.  I will save your message, and post it
if/when it is appropriate.

Regards,
Angela


-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
From: jeffj@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (jeffrey.n.jones)
Subject: Re: Problem with being too rational
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:49:58 GMT

Thanks to all for the nice words and the good advice! They really helped
out alot! 

Jeff
-- 
 Jeff Jones  AB6MB         | Hooker        : I'll do anything for $50! 
 jeffj@seeker.mystic.com   | Henny Youngman: Will you paint my house?
 Infolinc BBS 415-778-5929 |
From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (P. Andrew Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: The Promises
Date: 23 Jan 1993 13:31:30 -0600
Organization: Laboratory for Applied Logic
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Someone asked which book and on which page "the promises" are
to be found.

I'm sure there are to be found promises in many books; we could
always take a look at any politician's platform.

And there are many promises to be found in the Big Book,
"Alcoholics Anonymous."  Some are repeated more than once.

For instance, the first promise is not on page 83, as many people
think, but even earlier, right back to the title page.

"Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How Many Thousands of Men
and Women have Recovered from Alcoholism"

That's a promise.  And then the first sentence of the first
page of the first forward repeats that promise.

"We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men
and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state
of mind and body."

To me, that is the most important promise in the book; more
important even than the list which is found after step 9.
I am promised that I can recover from alcoholism.  And I can
say that promise has been fulfilled in my life.  I am recovered
from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.

The secodn promise I know of follows immediately after the
first.

"To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the
main purpose of this book."

They promise me that they will tell me precisely how they have
recovered.  In other words, they will give detailed instructions.
The implication is that if I follow their instructions, I will
have recovered from alcoholism.

Between the two of those promises, we have a pretty powerful
idea.  One that is a lot more powerful than the list of things
I get after step 9.

Phil W (Moscow, ID)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (David Nelson)
Subject: Re: RFD: Codependency (Third Attempt)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:17:43 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19

dgs@sfi.santafe.edu (David G. Simmons) writes:


>I strongly disagree with the premise that addicts cause co-dependents, even
>partly.  Codependents *find* addicts to be with *because* they are 
>co-dependent,
>and addicts fill a place in their disease process.  Addicts do not
>cause normal
>people to become codependent, except in the case of small children. (most

I must respectfully disagree with this statement.  I have known people
to acquire codependency (codep/Alanonic) in adulthood due to
interaction with an addict.  Additionally, your assertion flies in the
face of 40 years' worth of Al-anon literature (although Al-anon
doesn't use the term 'codependency').

>"normal" people won't have anything to do with addicts *or*
>codependents) Recovering

This is patently false, my friend.  Addiction is rarely blatently
evident, and many people befriend addicts without being aware of the
disease's presence.

>from codependency requires that we learn to exist in the same world with
>addicts without it negatively affecting our lives. If we run away from all
>addicts, even those in recovery, all we are learning is to run away, not
>to change, grow and recover.  

Codependency is an addiction on its own.  Were narcotic addicts
running away from AAs when they established NA?  I think not.  Many
addicts simply feel most comfortable and supported when banding
together with others suffering from the same addiction.

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk (Nik Shaylor)
Subject: The Promises
Reply-To: nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.30 $
Organization: Fabcab Ltd.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:26:56 +0000

Can someone tell me which Book, and what page, the AA promises are to be
found?

Thanks,
--
Nik Shaylor.  The Old School House, School Lane,   nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk
              Salisbury, Wilts. SP1 3YA, UK.       +44 722 326577
From: nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk (Nik Shaylor)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: advice wanted on helping alcoholic relative
Date: 26 Jan 93 11:58:32 GMT
Reply-To: nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk
Organization: Fabcab Ltd.
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.30 $

In article <hunt.727953928@shy.umd.edu> hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt) writes:

> ...       Until recently I had been willing to accept the notion
>that it was more important to deal with the sources of his stress than
>to deal with the alcohol problem head-on, but I am beginning to think
>otherwise. Has anyone had the experience with oneself or someone else
>that alcohol abuse has arisen as a stress-related problem and has
>ceased to be a problem when the source of stress has been resolved?
>Does anyone feel that hoping for this scenario is entirely
>unrealistic?

I think what you say here is spot on, the best route out of this
situation is to tackle the problems in the reverse order i.e. sort out
the Alcohol abuse, then the sources of the stress. Although the one may
be seen as a cause of the other the alcohol abuse does become a problem
in its own right and may not go away automatically. Also it is probably not
possible to sort anything alse whilst he is still drinking.

>He has gone to some AA meetings, but I think he feels uncomfortable
>with the importance of a "higher power" in the group's thinking (I
>suspect I would be too, for that matter).  I know that one is not
>ostracized for being nonreligious, but I can see that he may have
>difficulty identifying with a group of people who are looking to their
>religions for help in recovering.  Does anyone have a success story to
>tell having done things the AA way in spite of being very
>nonreligious?  Does anyone know of any recovery groups which cater to
>the nonreligious?

This is a very unfortunate impression, and all too easy to get. I am not
at all religious, but I do not have any problem with this aspect of the 12
step program. AA prople tend to have a language all of their own, and they talk
a lot about God, but mostly it not used in a religious context. More in a
sense of general spirituality. I think the point is made quite a lot in the
litrature that AA (and all the other 12 step fellowships) are not affiliated
with any religious teachings.

As for the God bit the thing that did it for me was somone who said:

 "The program works if you believe in God, the program works if you do not
  believe in God, but the program does not work if you think you are God!"

The best advice is to take what is useful, what you need for your recovery,
and leave the rest behind. Also it can be helpful to go to different meetings,
he may well find there is often quite a different feel/emphasis in another
group. He should look out for someone who inspires him, someone whos recovery
he admires. Recovery should be an adventure, not all doom and gloom.

I do hope it works out for him,

Regar#s,

--
Nik Shaylor.  The Old School House, School Lane,   nshaylor@fabcab.demon.co.uk
              Salisbury, Wilts. SP1 3YA, UK.       +44 722 326577
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Subject: 4th Step
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:00:23 GMT


	I never knew I could squirm so much, but I'm doing it. I'm
working on my fourth step, as I promised myself I would after reaching
six months of sobriety. The very fact that I'm able to face so many
things about myself is a testament to how well the program works. Six
months ago I wouldn't have dared to try.
	What I'd like is to hear from other people about how they did
it. I'm writing my inventory freestyle, because there don't seem to be
any definite formulas on how to do it. I'm finding my own way and that
seems to work. It's also what others have reccomended to me. But I
still want to hear from other people about it.
	One peice of advice I'm following is to tell other people (in
the program) about what I'm doing, going to meetings, talking to my
sponsor, instead of isolating with my inventory. If I tried it any
other way I'd go crazy.
	So let me hear from those of you who have done the 4th step
and survived. *grin* You'll be doing a lot toward helping me stay
sober.


Terrance Heath
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu (P. Andrew Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 4th Step
Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:07:26 -0600
Organization: Laboratory for Applied Logic
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

> 
>       What I'd like is to hear from other people about how they did
> it. I'm writing my inventory freestyle, because there don't seem to be
> any definite formulas on how to do it. I'm finding my own way and that
> seems to work. It's also what others have reccomended to me. But I
> still want to hear from other people about it.
> 

There are lots of formulas for doing this.  In fact, there are
so many formulas and 4th step questionaires floating around that
many people get confused.

If you are in AA, read the chapter "How It Works" in the book,
"Alcoholics Anonymous."  It has specific instructions on how
to make a searching and fearless moral inventory.

Feel free to ignore what the Big Book says.  In my experience, it
has always been best to follow the directions that the first 100
alcoholics in AA followed.  I can be sure of the results they
promise.  I can't be sure of the results that the other methods
will give me.

Phil W. (Moscow, ID)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support