HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin)
Subject: Re: interesting thought (ammendment 2)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:19:53 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella) writes:
> To pick your brain one more time, I'm a little curious about this wording
> myself.  The word "leaning" is not used, but "orientation" is.  Is it possible
> to interpret this in the negative sense?  That is, the intent was clearly to
> remove the right to claim discrimination from people oriented "toward"
> homosexuality; could this also be applied to strike down laws that protect
> those oriented "away from" homosexuality?  If so, then the argument that this
> amendment gives heterosexuals more rights than homosexuals falls apart

  This is exactly true.  Heterosexuals have no special protection, nor
  have they sought such.  Homosexuals will not be allowed special
  protection, but have sought such.

> I still suspect it could be struck down on the basis that it explicitly denies
> protection to a group that has the potential to deserve it ...

  Criteria originally instituted for special protection under
  Civil Rights Act of 1964:
  1)  Economic disadvantage,
  2)  Educational/
  3)  Cultural deprivation
  4)  Political Powerlessness.
  Wall Street Journal, 18-Jul-91, from a Gay Marketing Research 
  firm claimed:
  1) Homosexual households average more than twice the national 
     average income and more than four times the income of the truly
     dis-advantaged Afro-American household.
  2) The homosexual population boasts 3 times the number of college
     grads the average American population and more than 12 times the
     number of college grads of the dis-advantaged Afro-Americans.
  3) The homosexual population claims to have 4 times as many people
     who got to take overseas vacations than the average population
     and more than *60* times the number of the dis-advantaged Afro-
     Americans
  4) Is there any question that the homosexual community is
     politically powerless?

  Oppressed?  You decide.

> - homosexuals seem no less powerless than Christians, for example, 
> but the latter group gets protection.

  Christianity has protection from particular discrimination based on
  freedom-of-religion under the Constitution.

  Homosexuals have attempted to squeeze protected minority status
  based on behavioral identity into the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
  Being turned away at the Federal Level by the Supreme Court, (Bowers
  v.  Hardwick 1986 - Georgia sodomy laws challenged as prohibiting
  due process/equal protection to the homosexual community, laws
  upheld) the search for special protection continued at state and
  local levels with mixed success.

Van Martin		
vanm@col.hp.com

All ideas expressed here are my own, 
though you ought to consider that I am right

"All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
     But the LORD weighs the spirit"  
Prov. 16:2
Newsgroups: co.general
From: meridiem@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jill Engel)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boyc
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 06:53:58 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

Suzanne Morine writes:

>I think many straight guys are worried that someone bigger and stronger
>than them might give them unwanted attention.  The sort of thing that
>happens to women all the time.  If these StraightGuys(tm) accept gay
>people as equal, questions arise:

You've hit on it right here, Suzanne.  I just don't have much sympathy
for men when they complain how uncomfortable they are when confronted
with unwanted advances.  And, gee, they might have to worry when walking
at night, or going out for a drink, or on a first date.  Yes, I know that
95% of the men in this world are pretty decent, and that goes for straight
and gay.  And, the last thing I would want is for other people to
have to put up with what women see everyday and the restrictions and fears
we live with.  But, I wish they wouldn't act like it is so horrible it is 
happening to them, like it is something new..  Better to teach people how
to be more polite, more respectful to each other, men and women alike.

It seems this issue is coming to a peak now. This exact attitude is what
I keep hearing as a reason to keep homosexuals out of the military.  And 
honestly, I haven't heard many women soldiers say they feel threatened 
by lesbians.  I'm sure they have other things to worry about.


							Jill



*  Jill Engel (Anne Meridiem)  * "If the world were a logical place, *
* meridiem@lamar.colostate.edu *  men would ride side-saddle."       *
*                              *                    --Rita Mae Brown * 
Newsgroups: co.general
From: dixit@spot.Colorado.EDU (DIXIT SANJAY)
Subject: Air Tx: 1-way Den NY
Keywords: airticket,den,ny
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:26:59 GMT

 I have a 1 way ticket on Continental Airlines from Denver to NY
for travel to be completed by Dec 31st, 1992. Currently, it is
for dec 31st but can be changed for only $25. Asking $125 or bo.
Call (303) 499-3924 or email. Thanx.

Sanjay

Newsgroups: co.general
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:02:17 GMT

In article <Nov23.023035.1362@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> freedman@cs.colostate.edu writes:
>>>prior to the ammendment, if he were to fire an employee based upon sexual
>>>orientation, the employee would have had a valid legal claim of descrimination.

>>And, without any specific laws to support the claim, an almost impossible
>>job of willing such a suit.

>regardless of how difficult it would be to win, they would have been able to at
>least have their case heard.  Now, it is illegal to listen!

Actually, the real barrier would be "standing", a legal basis to sue, which
courts require _before_ they hear a case.

                                             Frank Crary
                                             CU Boulder

Newsgroups: co.general
From: freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boyc
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:51:44 GMT
Reply-To: freedman@cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Department

In article 13886@csrd.uiuc.edu, skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) writes:
>   Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
>   prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives, ..., will inherit
>   the kingdom of God.
>
so, female porstitutes are ok in the eyes of God??  I guess discrimination starts
at the begining, huh?!  what does homosexual offenders mean.  All homosexuals
offend or just the offensive ones?  Sexually immoral is defined as what (whips,
chains, anything other than the missionary position, what?)?  Adulterers--that
rules out many of the priests I know of.

---
Keith Freedman
Colorado State University
Department of Computer Science
Systems Administration
From: prusk@rosco.Central.Sun.COM (Paul Rusk [Sun Denver System Engineer])
Newsgroups: co.general
Subject: QT Wiles
Date: 17 Nov 92 07:25:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: prusk@rosco.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosco.central.sun.com
Keywords: Wiles Miniscribe

Anyone out there know the whereabouts of QT Wiles, formerly of Miniscribe.
I'm following up on a case study.  Any information would be greatly 
appreciated.

TIA,
Paul

email: paul.rusk@Central.Sun.COM



Newsgroups: co.general
From: dag@col.hp.com (David Geiser)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:47:37 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin) writes:
>   David, I'm surprised at you.  Is it possible that your circle of
>   friends include only like-thinking individuals?  I sit downstairs
>   from you and you never once asked me my opinion :-).

I have a fairly large circle of friends both from within and
without my place of employment.  One thing most of them have in
common is that they're educated.  The other thing that all of
them have in common is that they're tolerant.  They tend not to
remain a friend of mine if they're not.

Two wrongs don't make a right (except in jazz).  There should be
no reason that the homosexual community or any minority group
gets special protection or affirmative action under the law.  But
in today's world, it's too bad that they need special protection
just to get equal protection.


dag
-- 

 Isn't it funny how Jesus was so peaceful and Christians are so pushy?

--
Newsgroups: co.general
From: freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:10:46 GMT
Reply-To: freedman@cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Department

In article 24047@col.hp.com, kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary) writes:
>> OF COURSE THEY WERENT FIRED.  He couldn't legally fire them UNTIL NOW, could he?
>> 
>
>Colorado Springs, El Paso County and the State of Colorado have no laws
>or ordinances specifically protecting homosexuals.  No law that affects
>Perkins Chrysler Plymouth in Colorado Springs was affected by amendment 2.
>
If there were no laws specifically protection homosexuals in the State of
Colorado, why did you want to pass a law that in your words "removes special
protection."  Apparently, according to you, there wasn't any to begin with.

>If it was illegal for Will Perkins to fire an employee for being homosexual
>before amendment 2 passed why is it now legal?  I just don't see anything
>in the amendment that changes what Perkins (or any employer or landlord, etc.)
>can do.
>
prior to the ammendment, if he were to fire an employee based upon sexual
orientation, the employee would have had a valid legal claim of descrimination.
The ammendment prevents the State of Colorado from recognizing such a claim
in the case of homosexuality.  Perhaps you could re-read the ammendment and
let me know if this is not the case.
---
Keith Freedman
Colorado State University
Department of Computer Science
Systems Administration

Newsgroups: co.general,boulder.general,co.politics,soc.motss
From: woods@claven.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Organization: Scientific Computing Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:56:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.173438.7141@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.164158.22880@craycos.com> jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) writes:
>>If you want to boycott anybody, consider boycotting Perkins Chrysler-Plymouth
>>and Colorado football.  The heads of both operations were prominent in the
>>pro-amendment-2 movement.

McCartney has a lifetime contract.  Boycotting CU football will most
likely hurt the University itself, and the future careers of the 
players (regardless of whether or not they supported #2) more than it will
McCartney. 

>However, urging the TV networks to boycott CU football might have some impact.

Same argument. That will hurt the University and the players, but not
McCartney personally. Exactly the opposite effect from what you want.
There is certainly no evidence that the University itself, or even the
athletic department, contributed to the support of #2, and the consequences
of expecting them to control what one of their employees does with his own 
money and on his own time are, if anything, scarier than the implications of 
#2.

--Greg
From: smorine@nyx.cs.du.edu (Suzanne Morine)
Newsgroups: co.general
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boyc
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:11:44 GMT
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman) writes:

>In article 15422@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu, smorine@nyx.cs.du.edu (Suzanne Morine) writes:
>>freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman) writes:
>>>Realize, Melinda, that "minority" groups including African-Americans and
>>>American-Indians have been fighting for "their" rights (I quote their, because
>>>I feel that PEOPLE deserve rights, not any group of people in particular) for
>>>MANY years while the homosexual situation is fairly recent and has been
>>>clouded by this AIDS mis-information.  If you wish for us to look at the
>>>civil-rights history, one could argue that homosexuals shouldn't expect
>>>anything for 30 or so years.
>>
>>This sounds like "you have to wait X years before we deign to give you
>>equal rights".  Freedom and fairness are more important than popular
>>myths and "jokes" against certain groups.
>>
>No, what I'm saying is that change takes a LONG time--Especially change in peoples
>views (and religous beliefs).  Some people view this as a Biblical issue and it
>is these people especially with whome it is difficult to carry on intellectual
>discussions as their ENTIRE support material comes from ONE book.
>[...]

I keep hearing you say it just takes waiting and you cut out my opinion
that thinking shouldn't be some special event to wait for - that it should
be the default.

Leviticus says slavery is cool (of a different nation than yours)[*]
and I'm sure the slaveholders used the quote as an argument against
abolition.  I'm sure arguing with these people was like conversing with
medieval people from a time warp.  No matter; you may as well argue your
case with them.  They do have brains.  I think enough information about
sexuality exists out there for people to say, look, the Bible was wrong
about the sun revolving around the earth, slavery being acceptable, etc.,
etc., and now it's time to admit that homosexuality is not cause to
shun someone without regard to their actual character.


>> "I am preoccupied with sending signals that I'm straight (chasing skirts,
>> making anti-gay remarks, acting macho).  Isn't it just as valid if a gay
>> guy constantly sends signals that he's gay?  ...
>>
>I don't particularly appreciate having gay men acting towards me the way you
>describe and I don't imagine many women appreciate it from straight guys.
>However, what you are suggesting is a 2 wrongs don't make a right situation.
>If one person is an a$$hole, it doesn't make it right for another person to
>be one.!

I think everyone saw the points I was illustrating perfectly fine!


  [*] Lev 25:44-47

--
--Suzanne Morine          smorine@nyx.cs.du.edu
--"Toleration is the greatest gift of the mind; it requires the same effort
--of the brain that it takes to balance oneself on a bicycle."  Helen Keller
--
Newsgroups: co.general,co.politics
From: woods@claven.ucar.edu (Greg Woods)
Subject: Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado
Organization: Scientific Computing Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:02:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.161144.15138@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.220017.1720@claven.ucar.edu> woods@claven.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov19.155736.4928@craycos.com> sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>>>[Coach McCartney] is also the highest-paid
>>>employee of the State of Colorado. The coach's Neanderthal political views
>>>aside, I think that's a pretty sad commentary on our priorities in this state.
>>
>>This paints a misleading picture that says the state government cares
>>more about football than about other state government functions, 
>
>I don't think it's misleading in the least.
>

Well *I* do.  You point to one of the expenses of state government
relating to CU football but fail to mention that CU football also
brings *in* some money to the state government, thus making it look
like we spend all this money on football, when in fact the CU Athletic
Department (now that we have a winning football team with TV revenues
and sellout crowds) is practically self-supporting.  The only ones with
a legitimate gripe about how much CU football costs are the CU students
that are forced to subsidize it to the tune of $66/semester.

--Greg
Newsgroups: co.general,csu.general,co.ads
From: wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman)
Subject: Washer and Dryer for sale!!
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:24:52 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I'm posting this for a friend of mine.  If you want these, you're
better off trying to respond to her.  If you can't get in touch
with her, email me and I'll contact her.


     For Sale: Kenmore Stacking Washer and Dryer (Almond) Full-Size.  
     Must sell, leaving town Tues. Nov. 24!!
     Asking $525 obo.
     21 months old, great condition.

     Call Janice at 484-8685 
     or email janice_lucero.math@cnsmail.mso.colostate.edu
Newsgroups: co.general
From: freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boyc
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:42:56 GMT
Reply-To: freedman@cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Department

In article 21842@col.hp.com, vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin) writes:
>  "Hate what is evil" and according to my understanding of the Bible
>  (there it is - flame on!!!)  homosexuality is evil (NOTE:  NOT THE
>  HOMOSEXUAL).  "I will not condone what God seeks to redeem."  Dr.
>  Robert Oerter.  It only serves to confuse people to legalize bad
>  ideas.
BAD is in the eye of the beholder.  Some say that it is ok to lie to prevent hurting
someones feelings, but I feel that lieing is bad, so we shouldn't legalize lying?
Also, NOT making something ILLEGAL is different from making something LEGAL.

Only things that are to the detriment of people should be made ILLEGAL not things
that YOU personally just don't like.  It is no detriment to society if someone is
a homosexual.  As long as that person respects the fact that You and I are not, then
they cause me no problems ans so I will choose not to cause them problems.  You,
however, feel that you need to pursecute these people and this is what I don't
understand!
>
Since there is SUPPOSEDLY a separation of Church and State, it is inappropriate for
the government to have legislation that stemmed from a particular religious belief.
Since Not ALL americans or Coloradoans Believe everything they read (i.e. the Bible),
these vues should not be foreced upon them
>  Also, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools
>  despise wisdom and instruction."  Prov.  1:7
>
>  So, in my family, there are areas where fear and hate ARE family
>  values.
the Bible supports FEAR of GOD (not of other people), and NO where do I find the
Bible supporting HATE!!!!!

---
Keith Freedman
Colorado State University
Department of Computer Science
Systems Administration

Newsgroups: co.general,csu.general,co.ads
From: goshorn@CS.ColoState.EDU (michael goshorn)
Subject: Re: Adult Cocker Spaniel available FREE
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:55:22 GMT
Distribution: co
Organization: Colorado State University

Free pet available due to illness in family must move pet out of house.
Eight-year old cocker , great with kids & family.
If interested contact : goshorn@cs.colostate.edu or 221-5685.

Michael Goshorn



Newsgroups: co.general,co.politics
From: mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella)
Subject: Re: Constitution
Reply-To: marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Distribution: co
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:01:10 GMT

Frank Crary (fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU) wrote:

: As far as a removal of existing protections, there is a distinction but
: not one that has been raised before the Supreme Court (to my limited 
: knowledge.) That means it's anybody's guess how they would rule.
: ...
: [ good insight into likely strategies deleted ]

I suspected as much.  Thanks for the clarification.

--
Marc Sabatella
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
--
Amendment 2 Is Legalized Discrimination - Shame On You, Colorado
--
"Neither the State of Colorado ... nor any of its municipalities ... shall ...
 enforce any ... ordinance ... whereby homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual
 orientation ... shall ... be the basis of ... any ... claim of discrimination"
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Newsgroups: co.general
From: wallsj@CS.ColoState.EDU (jeffrey joel walls)
Subject: Re: Colorado Amendment 2: The First Fatalit
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:21:19 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

The following article appeared in the FORT COLLINS COLORADOAN newspaper
11/16/92 and will be partly reproduced without permission:

GAY ACTIVISTS WEIGH COLORADO BOYCOTT

by the Los Angeles Times

LOS ANGELES -- Gay and Lesbian activists from around the country ended
a three-day conference here Sunday unsure of whether to call for a 
national boycott of Colorado to protest the state's recent approval
of an anti-gay referendum.

  "At this point, we are neither condemming nor condoning a boycott of
  Colorado," said Bruce Pfrommer of Colorado, one of more than 1,100
  activists who attended the fifth annual Creating Change conference
  over the weekend.  "We want to be real careful about what we're doing
  here...There's a lot of concern that we don't rush into a call for
  a boycott," Pfrommer said.

  Cheif among those concerns is fear that a boycott would hurt businesses
  and communities that opposed Colorado's Amendment 2, a constitutional
  amendment that rescinds gay-rights ordinances in Denver, Boulder, and
  Aspen and prevents state or local governments from passing any such
  protections in the future.  ...

  "Why do you punish Aspen, which did not vote yes?" wondered Pfrommer.
  "How do you draw the line on this?"

Thought you all would like to read that.

jeff

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|       Colorado State University       | 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Jeff Walls - wallsj@CS.ColoState.Edu  |
| 2520 Baxter Place                     |
| Fort Collins, CO  80526               |
| (303) 226-2411                        |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Newsgroups: co.general
From: losburn@teal.csn.org (Lynn Osburn)
Subject: internet <-> fidonet gateway sought
Keywords: internet fidonet mail address
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Distribution: co
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:59:27 GMT

Can someone enlighten me?  I'm looking for a method to pass mail from 
internet to fidonet and back.  I've heard of gateways out there...but 
I don't know the correct addressing method.

Anyone help?
-L


-- 
Lynn Osburn                        Law of Probable Dispersion: 
*IX Systems Guy                    Whatever hits the fan probably won't
PACE Membership Warehouse          be evenly distributed...
303-843-8000 x8162
Newsgroups: co.general
From: freedman@cs.colostate.edu (keith freedman)
Subject: Re: interesting thought (ammendment 2)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:51:27 GMT
Reply-To: freedman@cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Department

In article 15295@col.hp.com, vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin) writes:
>  Criteria originally instituted for special protection under
>  Civil Rights Act of 1964:
>  1)  Economic disadvantage,
>  2)  Educational/
>  3)  Cultural deprivation
>  4)  Political Powerlessness.

If you continue telling us that homosexuality is a lifestyle, then wouldn't that
lifestyle be considered a culture?  Isn't ammendment 2 Cultural deprivation?

---
Keith Freedman
Colorado State University
Department of Computer Science
Systems Administration

Newsgroups: co.general,co.politics