HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: Communism
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:14:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.174007.794@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>,
moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley) writes:

|> isn't cummunism also a form of capitalism - they both revolve round
money
|> as a means to measure `worth'.

Actually, no.  Communism argues that the value of something is
dependent
upon the work put into it, capital is something that they are strongly
opposed to.  That's why they eliminated banks, stocks, etc, as the
tools
of capitalists.  They did bring back backs because they found they
couldn't
get by without them.

Capitalists believe that the worth of something is determined by how
much
money you can get for it, a much more fluid concept.
|> 
|> > Is there any experience, or a serious of experiences, that can 
|> > convince you the communism can't work?  You see, I'm interested 
|> > in theory only when it can be checked by experiments.
|> 
|> vis: define `success'. Cuba worked for a number of years. Village
|> democracy worked for generations in ancient Greece. Both failed
|> really badly when outside conditions changed. Is village democracy
|> therefore bad? The same thing could be held of the failure of
|> Brazil to survive as a democratic capitalist state.

Cuba was heavily subsidised by the former Soviet Union, when the 
subsidy ended so did the Cuban "success".  Thus, it was always an
illusionary success.

					Paul Wayner
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: fabian@kiwi.cis.ohio-state.edu (anjanette louise fabian)
Subject: a
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 20:56:38 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Sexism: Defined
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 13:24:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.133941.15637@news.nd.edu> s
 larsen@beethoven.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:
>I've been seeing here various incidents involving various 
>characters, said incidents and characters being described 
>as "sexist".
>
>I am curious as to how people define the term "sexist", as 
>it is used both as a noun and adjective.  What I am looking
>for here is not a dictionary definition but what folks 
>believe sexism to be.

Sexism - Prejudicial treatment of or bias against people with respect
to their sex.  More broadly, the social ideas, roles and institutions
which permote this and assign different status to men and women.

In our society this takes the form of an implicit assumption that
men are "normal" and women are inferior and "abnormal".

<Soapbox on>
IMHO, it is possible for men to be the targets of sexism. At the same time,
I would not charge every example of women "turning the tables" on male
sexism with being "sexist".  For example, I would not call the exclusion
of men from the Michigan Wom*n's Music Festival sexist; because: it has
so little social support; it is a response to social sexism/heterosexism,
it is a private volentary association which does not damage those not
participating.

On the other hand I would suggest that not granting men and women
equal access to parental leave for childcare is sexist (and is a 
manifestation of the social ideology of sexism.)

This parallels the debate about racism -- where some parties suggest
that the extent of social power one has is an important variable.

(I think this is important, but it is a manner of degree, not an absolute.)
<Soapbox off>

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Star Trek Opening
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:01:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.134803.21357@panix.com> smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:
>>- >     (Bryan Lepine) writes...
>>- [text deleted]
>>-
>>- >>	I LIKED THE STAR TREK OPENING BETTER BEFORE THEY WERE PRESSURED
>>- >>	INTO CHANGING IT! 
>
>I don't believe "they" were pressured.  Roddenberry was very open to
>ideas and suggestions.  If someone were to bring up a good point, he
>would more than likely agree.  For instance, someone pointed out that
>there should be a Russian on board the Enterprise since they were the
>first in space.  The character Chekov was created.
>
>More relevant to this group, though, was the original pilot which
>featured Majel Barrett as "Number One," the second in command.  NBC
>would not accept the idea of a woman second in command.  In 1966 it
>was unheard of that a woman would be in a position of power on a
>weekly tv program.
>
>(Then again, in ST II, Saavik (Kirstie Alley) was referred to as Mr.
>Saavik)
>

FWIW, I once heard [anecdotal evidence==worthless] that Roddenberry (sp?)
wanted a female Starship captain in an episode back in the original series and
the suits said No.

Considering the current argument re language and such, it is certainly
*possible* that Mr. would be completely appropriate...it's also quite possible
that nothing will be settled by then, either  [most likely IMHO].

-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
From: pilgrim@daimi.aau.dk (Jakob G}rdsted)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Choice for men
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:45:04 GMT
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark

gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:

>What will you do after sending the FBI after dead-beat dads will 
>not yield the results you want?  What will you do if the tax payers
>will be tired of paying for irresponsible women?  How much state

They are not paying for 'irresponsible women', what are you saying?
They are paying for 'irresponsible women & _men_' ! Just because the
father is far away when the child arrives, makes him no less the father.
He has at least 50 % of the responsibility for the childs/pregnancies
existence.

You have several times talked about these 'irresponsible women', drop
it! 

>powers will you use to force your ideals on other people before you
>will have the wisdom to say "enough"?

Your reasoning seems weird to me. Along your lines, people are only
guilty of a crime if they are caught? (In effect, not in principle).
(I'm looking forward to seing people claiming, I call sex a crime...)

--
      Jakob Gaardsted   .    .  | Black Rainbow(TM)     .         .      .
  Computer Science Department . |. Invaporated      .        .        .    .
University of Aarhus, Jylland(!)|   .            .      . Cordless Life  .  .
 .  pilgrim@daimi.aau.dk   .    |          .    .    .     Pointless Mouse .
From: baba@Tymnet.com (Duane Hentrich)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Defining terms
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:44:44 GMT
Organization: BT North America, San Jose CA.

In article <AWERLING.92Sep8155202@dante.nmsu.edu>, awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
|> In article <715952271@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:
|> - Feminism is, more than anything else, a political movement.  The real
|> - "theory" behind most of this political movement demands is "it is good
|> - for women therefore it is good."  
|> 
|> Feminism is an intellectual movement with political implications.

There is no emotional nor personal side? Feminism seems more a Rite of
Passage to me. I'm glad to be beyond it.

-- 
d'baba Duane M. Hentrich	baba@Tymnet.Com

We have yet to learn that the thing uttered in words is not therefore affirmed. It must affirm itself, or no forms of logic or of oath can give it evidence. 
The sentence must also contain its own apology for being spoken. - R.W.Emerson
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: "Sexist" Comedy
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Sep7.114940.16894@coli.uni-sb.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:55:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.114940.16894@coli.uni-sb.de> simon@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Julia Simon) writes:

- mackenzi@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Paul Mackenzie) writes:
- > 
- > Are these jokes really sexist, or are they just poking fun at the
- > stereotypical attitudes involved?
- > 
-
- What's the difference?

Well, what does sexism have to do with poking fun?  I imagine there is
a very thin line between poking fun and being sexist.  But Paul was
referring to poking fun at stereotypes, not poking fun at a particular
gender.  Making fun of stereotypes is definitely *not* sexist.

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Grading papers
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:02:35 GMT

dsvoss@isr.harvard.edu (Steve Voss) writes:

>I recently graded a paper by a young man who consistently used "he"
>and "his" for pronouns.  I spent a decent amount of time trying
>to come up with an appropriate response when grading the paper,
>so I thought I would share the comments I used.  Maybe somebody
>will want to use it too, or maybe someone will have a suggestion
>for next time I confront this situation.  Here goes:

>"The emerging convention is to use gender-neutral or otherwise
>inclusive pronouns (e.g. "she or he" or "his/her") when writing
>for a polite audience, since this reduces sexism inherent in
>traditional language conventions.  Although this factor didn't
>influence your grade, I would have appreciated less frequent use
>of masculine pronouns to describe hypothetical individuals in the
>text."

>I thought this set a good balance, admonition without strong advocacy.
>steve

Oh, so you would say "He or she who laughs last, laughs best"?
This is just butchery of the English language.  Most good writers
nowadays (at least in some papers in journals and such that I have seen)
will use one or the other pronoun, but not both.  I mean, if the
individual is hypothetical, then why can he not be a male, or she a 
female?

Like it or not, "he" is still the gender-neutral pronoun.  There is no
reason, however, not to use "she" in the same context.  It is not
sexism because "he" is the norm.  This is just the way the language is.
Perhaps the laguage had sexist orgins, but do not call me a sexist
because I accurately practice my language.

keith


Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: dholtsin@nyx.cs.du.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Pro-LIFE feminists???
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 23:42:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.030251.12001@panix.com> 
gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:

>> From the Village Voice:
>> 
>> In the article from 9/8/92 entitled "Freedom of Speech Under President
>> Clinton" (p25):
>> 
>> "These pro-life women on the Left believe in a consistent ethic of
>> life.  ... As for abortion, Feminists for Life say that 'truly
>> liberated women reject abortion because they reject the male world
>> view that accepts violence as a legitimate solution to conflict.'"

> The theory itself is vacuous, since the issue is not whether
> abortion is good or bad but whether the state has, or ought
> to have, the power to prevent it and force childbearing.

Some people believe that abortion concerns both issues, not just
the latter issue.  

> )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(


Doug Holtsinger
From: mcline@terapin.com (Matthew Cline)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Date: 5 Sep 92 12:10:40 PST
Organization: BBS

In article <4SEP199215550439@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov>, spzkny@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov
(JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>In article <mcline.1cgs@terapin.com>, mcline@terapin.com
> (Matthew Cline) writes...
>
>[deleted test description]
>>So it seems that language can have an affect on what people think, and
>>it should thus be changed.
>
>Why?  So that everyone will think the way you wish them to?  By the way, 
>agreeing with your conclusion above, do you really want language to be 
>regulated by a specific political/social group?  I don't.
>
>                                                  James S. Zakany

        No, I think that it should be changed because its not doing what its
supposed to.  For instance, the word "man" is supposed to be the generic for
humans.  However, the test I talked about showed that when "man" is used as a
generic, it isn't interpreted as a genric.  Thus, it isn't doing its job, and
should be replaced by a word that will be interpreted the same way as it is
used.

Matthew Cline
mcline@terapin.com
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: The word "sexist" (WAS: Sexist studies...) 
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:39:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <AWERLING.92Sep10230919@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <47sn05h.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>{re: "sexist," the word}
>
>- Right. But I have not said that either is wrong, or right for that matter.
>- I have yet to make any value judgements here, despite several posters
>- assumptions to the contrary.
>
>I assume you are partially (fully?) referring to me.  I've been
>conscious of your evading 

Bogosity alert - I have "evaded" nothing, especially value judgements.
I simply see no need to make them here.

>                         of value judgments, or at least your lack of
>including or inferring them.  What I have tried to point out is that
>the *word* sexist is negative in our language (via our culture).  To
>say that Women's Studies is sexist is to call it negative, without
>providing a disclaimer.  

Since this usage is consistant with the primary dictionary definition,
I do not see the requirement for a disclaimer. If the word sexist
does not refer to the actions of both sexes, than it is sexist as well, 
and I do mean with the negative bias.

Think about it, if language does color though (as claimed in another
thread), then defining sexism as men doing bad things to women (as it
is often used) defines the problem as strictly a male problem. A non-
sexist (and valid) usage is the non-biased version, just 'discrimination
by members of one sex against the other'. 

>                                  Your lack of a disclaimer is either
>neglectful on your part or dishonest.  

Far from it, your use of ad-hominum is distastefull, and completely
unecessary. By what means do you judge "dishonest"y in others?

>If you wanted to merely say that you find Women's Studies to be
>exclusionary, you might have considered using less-loaded words than
>"sexist."

And you might have chosen other words than "dishonest" and "neglectful".
But you did not.
 
>--
>Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
>"Jesus is coming, look busy."
>          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.

Rich

payner@netcom.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:38:42 EDT
From: <DCW112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Women in Engineering

    This topic is one that interests me greatly. I am a male engineer and I
also consider myself a feminist. How's that for a combination.
Anyway, I usually tend to fall toward the nurture side of the argument. I
have read some interesting articles that suggest conditioning plays a
major factor in detering women from the field.
    The first is the conditioning that starts at the very early ages. The
boy recieving the legos for Christmas and so on. Then moving to school were
studies have shown that teachers will ask boys the more difficult analytical
questions. A study of high school guidance counslors showed that they
often suggested that the girls not take the higher level math courses.
    So, by this point, studies show that girls are behind boys in spacial
ability. Which was recently confirmed by a study that indicated men navi-
gate by a spacial sence and women by traversing from landmark to landmark.
These spacial skills are essential to surviving in engineering.
    Still the line is fuzzy and the differntial treatment recieved in high
school is convincing but not exactly proof. One study that give argument to the
nurture argument is one on a technically strong high school. Many of the
instructors had technical backgrounds and expected as much from the girls
as the boys. In this school there was no noticible difference in math ability
between the sexes.
   Another article suggested that the perception of engineering was at fault.
The article's author suggested that engineering still has a dirty mechanic
image and that is the force that is detering women.
   The debate goes on however. I believe that it must be some combination of
the above vactors. Even if nature had something to do with it no test has
suggested that abilities vary by an extent great enough to cause such
a great disparity between the numbers of men and women in engineering.
From: baba@Tymnet.com (Duane Hentrich)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Bathroom symbols
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:20:45 GMT
Organization: BT North America, San Jose CA.

Public Restrooms, as opposed to Bathrooms, could, and IMHO should, be designed
as suites of rooms. At entry or exit would be the wash/grooming/rest area,
provided with large mirrors, washing facilities, and couches/chairs for
those who need them. Off of this would be two doorways, one to the urinals
and one to a room full of private stalls. At least some of the stalls in
this area should be equiped with bidets. Men also can benefit from their
use.

Security issues would wouild be taken into consideration along with our
requirement of privacy in determining the openness of the suite.

-- 
d'baba Duane M. Hentrich	baba@Tymnet.Com

We have yet to learn that the thing uttered in words is not therefore affirmed. It must affirm itself, or no forms of logic or of oath can give it evidence. 
The sentence must also contain its own apology for being spoken. - R.W.Emerson
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: flame naming (ataylor's inconsistency)
Date: 13 Sep 92 21:40:11 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zabriskie.berkeley.edu

Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis) writes:
|In article <18rd46INN5t1@agate.berkeley.edu>
|spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
|
|>          first name          last name         initials
|> 
|> men      13                  15                8
|> women    10                  2                 1
|
|[...]
| 
|> Ours is a small group.  In an organization large enough you
|> need a policy to assign logins, that might tend to make
|> them mostly random.
|
|Am I to take it that the absence of a policy means that the above table
|is a result of personal preference on the part of those obtaining the
|accounts?  

I'll preface my answer by repeating myself: the numbers above are
not much of an indicator of anything; they're just an isolated
example.

"Absence of a policy" means exactly that.  Whichever root
created a new account decided on an account name.  If the new
accountee had a preference, it may or may not have been noted.
So there is _some_ personal preference reflected in the above
table.  Beyond that it's difficult to say much.

Steve
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Medicinal Practices
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:24:33 GMT

sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>Yes, that's why the average lifespan is now 30 years, and it used
>to be 70+ years back in those wonderful days of "pre-professional"
>medicine. (NOT!) Yes, life sure used to be fine back when "women
>healers" took care of your broken bones, appendicitis, etc., but
>health care went into the pits when those nasty men invented
>"academic medicine."
>Paul, there are still many places in Africa and South America where
>medicine is still in its pristine, pre-professional state. Maybe
>you should visit those areas, and give us a first-hand acccount of
>the fantastic health care and lifespan those people enjoy.

Folk medicine did not have access to current technology, but now it is
available. But current technology does not have access, or does not
want access, to folk medicine, and folk medicine is rapidly dying out
in many places in the world. Folk medicine is at least medicine of the
people, and has in fact accumulated a large body of valuable knowledge.
It is more holistic - in relation to the earth and to the spirituality
of the people involved. Drugs are fine, but doctors today quite often
seem to try to decide what pill it should be this time.

People died of diseases we know know how to cure, and they die of starvation
and malnutrition (africa et. al.) What they died of in far fewer numbers
than we do with our vaunted medical system, are such things as heart
disease and cancer. What they lived without were such things as large-scale
mental disorders, artificial food, commercialized care, and eating disorders.
We save more lives but live them much more poorly. Give me a medicine wo/man
who went to medical school, s/he'll treat me out of the best of both worlds.
Western medicine has a way to go before it could accept that it does not
know everything.
My acupuncturist is a chinese woman who studied for 11 years and has been
practicing for 25. She can tell me what I've been eating lately by holding
my arm near the wrist. I dare you to find one graduate from any medical
school in the country who can do that. The closest sorts of skills here
are in 'soft' chiropractic (no 'cracking'), with the skill of inferring
an organ's state through musular resistance. My rolfer did more for me
than all of my shrinks put together.
My current doctor is medical out of western tradition but his bookshelves
are also full of things on native healing, shamanism, stuff out of the
'new age'. Really, I'd be frightened to go to the hospital for a difficult
condition of any kind of biochemical/biophysical, as opposed to bacterio-
logical/virological, condition. Last resort. Broken bones, stitches, fine.
Not where it involves chemical remedy at the first resort.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women