HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: New Pagans and Reading
Date: 4 Sep 92 04:44:32 GMT

*The White Goddess* is poetic metaphor, not a factual account of 
history. 

From *Drawing Down the Moon* by Margot Adler

<<<pp.59-60>>>
Bonewits told me, "Graves is a sloppy scholar. *The White Goddess* has
caused more bad anthropology to occur among Wiccan groups than almost
any other work. It's a lovely metaphor and myth and an inspirational
source of religious ideas to people, but he claimed it was a work of
scholarship and that people were to take what he said as true. There
are still a few groups of Neo-Pagans who use Graves and Murray as a
sacred scripture."

It is likely that certain members of the Craft have interpreted Graves
too literally. Graves himself said that he wrote the first draft of
the *The White Goddess* in a few weeks, in a storm of passion, and
from the beginning it was very clear in his mind that the book was
Poetic Metaphor.

<<<footnote 27>>>
[Quote from Aiden Kelly], "Graves says many times in *The White
Goddess* that it is a poetic work and specifically dismisses it as
scholarship in the usual sense. Certainly many in the Craft who
wouldn't know scholarship from a raven have blithely overlooked this
point---but Graves can't be blamed for that."

<<<Resources p. 548>>>
Graves, Robert. *The White Goddess*. A great work of poetic prose,
often confused for scholarship.

Thorfinn

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The use of fantasy as history means 
the corruption of history.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: something to check out
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:14:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

I was browsing in soc.religion.islam and encountered a fascinating
(and LONG) post which was a point-by-point refutation of Christian
claims of Jesus' divinity. The poster made a very careful examination
of New Testament passages to support his argument that Jesus in
fact *never* claimed godhood or divinity for himself. I found it a
very interesting post and thought others here might also.  The title
of the article was "Jesus did not claim godhood/a rebuttal of missionary 
theology" (sorry, don't have the article number).  If there is much
interest in this I'll repost the article over here.

Richard
(Tuneweaver)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion
From: cmacdonald@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:19:33 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

Hey,

The "crazy" crack was just a minor bit of sarcasm. I am not one of those Masons
who will simply not abide female Masonry. The issue is complicated, but most
Masons just dismiss it out of hand. Janis, you hit me slightly low on that one,
although I admit my composition my have earned it for me. I would love to hear
something more constructive.




Joe
From: popec@fennec.sccsi.com (PopeC)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: fav. bible verses
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 09:46:14 CDT
Organization: Rivendell BBS / Hou, TX. / +1 713 941 2236

>iEdit> i4
Ediel(1
them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
And when he had spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalum.
The misuse of this versUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU










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From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:20:45 GMT

From: burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns)
>Hang on dere, man. You mean there are _pre-Christian_ British crosses?
>WHERE? I presume we're talking about a distinct quartered-circle design,
>here, not a triskele or swastika.
>
>I mean I'd love this to be true ...

The sun-wheel is a very old Indo-European symbol, prominently used
by the Germanic and Celtic peoples.

From Tadhg MacCrossan's *The Sacred Cauldron*:

<<<p.135-138>>>
The best design to wear, that is authentically Celtic, is the triskele or 
tryfot, which is the emblem of Druidiactos. This design is the
three-legged sunwheel, which resembles a spiralling pin-wheel with
three swirling appendages.

The triskele or tryfot is a very ancient Indo-European symbol. It was
also used by the Germanic and Greek peoples. The Celts had another
symbol which closely resembled the tryfot called the fylfot.
Unfortunately, this ancient Indo-European symbol has become associated
with the flag of the National Socialists and thus with the
anti-Semitism or hatred. As such, it was given the Sanskrit name
swastika, "good luck charm", in common English vernacular, but in
German it was called Hakenkreuz, "hooked cross". Before this beautiful
four-legged sunwheel got all its negative publicity, it was known by the
astute as the ancient religious symbol from Ireland and Iceland in the
west to India in the east, an emblem of the religion taught by the
druids and Brahmans.

...

Another symbol sacred to the Celtoi of the elder faith is the rota
Taranous [rota tah-RAH-nuh-ooss], "wheel of Taranus", also called a
labaron, which is a chariot wheel of four, six or nine spokes, which
symbolizes the sun and the thunderer, Taranus (one of the three sons
of Lugus along with Esus and Teutatis), as a God of the sky. This
symbol was incorporated into the Celtic cross. This symbol may be worn
as a pendant or medallion also.

Such symbols as pentatgrams were never Celtic and not associated with
anything Celtic or druidic until the last few decades, when some
people were trying to claim this originally Middle-Eastern or Hellenic
symbol as a Celtic emblem. This is only because the Neopagan revival was
started mainly by people who were actually cabalists or Hermeticists;
that symbol is appropriate only to them but is alien to the Celts.

Thorfinn

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If vegetarians eat vegetables,
what do humanitarians eat?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C. Barwell)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Knights Templar
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 08:48:20 CST
Organization: Fennec Information Systems, The World View Magazine

There is an interesting book, "Born In Blood', by John J. Robinsaon about 
the Knights Templar.  The thesis of the book is that when the K.T. were 
savaged by French king Phillip The Fair, (what a misnomer), that many 
Knights Templar fled and went 'underground'.  They developed a very 
intricate set of coded catchphrases and responses so that they could 
filter out real fellow knights from societies stool pidgeons spies and 
meddlers.  This was the start of the Masonic Temple.  The 'Masonic' 
symbols are one the face of it similar to phraseology one would associate 
with a Mason's Guild, but actually are drawn from Templar ritual and 
history.  Most all of early Masonic imagery has this double meaning.
This is a very interesting book considering that the Southern Babtists 
are even now starting an official anti-masomnic witchhunt.
  There is also,(speaking of withch hunts), a three page article in this 
weeks 'Newsweek Magazine' on the Salem Witches.  Check yer local news 
stand. 

----------------
William C. Barwell [popec@fennec.sccsi.com]  //  Pope Charles
Pope Of the Church Of The SubGenius for the Golden Triangle Area
Laughing at everything in the Universe...including the concept of 
laughing at everything in the Universe!
-----------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: While we're talking about Masons...
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 04:04:52 GMT

elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth) writes:

>and the Templars and the Hospitallers (Knights of Malta) were actually the
>same group.  All the events in my timeline really happened; but most of

Heck, any fan of Bogart films knows THAT.

While we are talking about Freemasons, The Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo,
and so forth...
               Just what the heck is the International Order of Odd Fellows?
I see chapters of this all over, but more often in places like Ithaca, NY
and Boulder, CO it seems.  

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Pagan music
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 19:18:43 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug29.070305.2436@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>Ben: if you're still reading this group -- THANKS!  You did me a really
>big favor by posting this!

	Ben's hanging out with his Dad in Chapel Hill, NC right now but
will be back by mid-September.  I'll pass along your thanks if I run into
him before then :)

>She's also doing something on September 5th (Saturday) in Portland Oregon,
>along with Tempest.  If you can, go see it!  You'll be glad you did.
>I *think* this is in conjunction with Firebird Arts and Music -- a
>company which does filk and a little folk music.  The gig is at
>1615 S.E. Alder in Portland, and you can get more info by calling
>(503) 232-2759.

	People should go to this without a doubt, because Heather is damn
good and Tempest rules the world (or at least a significant portion thereof
:)  I saw Tempest in concert for the first time here in Boston a week or so
ago and they were _awesome_.
	I'm supposed to be starting a email list for Tempest, but really
don't know how.  If anyone wants to start one first, that would be cool.
	If anyone goes to this show, say hi to the band for me.
	Heck!  I'll be in San Francisco then - maybe I could swing up and
see the show ... hmmm ...

>She also has tapes for sale.  Her "Midsummer" tape is wonderful.  She
>was lead singer in the group Phoenyx, and their album _Keepers_Of_The_Flame_
>is pretty good too.

	Where does one get the Midsummer tape?

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:48:11 GMT

eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:

>>>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>>>: Disclaimer, I am not a Mason (yet).
>:             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>:               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>:                                Br'anArthur
>: 
>: Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)<<

>And highly unlikely that you could become one as in masonry homosexuals are
>not openly admitted.

I have never heard that, and I have definitely heard of queer Masons from a
straight Mason.  There may well be Masonic lodges which would have a problem
with queer-folk, but it is not Masonic policy.  (See Shava's post for the
*only* absolute requirements for Masonry.)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: wells@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:41:57 GMT
Organization: Zanzor of the CLOUDS

In alt.pagan, popec@korova.uucp (Mr. Charlie) writes:

> By the way, Prayer in School is back on the political menu.  I suggest 
> for giggles that everyone here with a bible check out Matthew 6:5.
> Jesus Forbids public prayer.
> The Bible proves it.
> That settles it.
> .......................................................................

Well, let's look at the online bible scripture for today:

Mat6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: 
for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of 
the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They 
have their reward.

Mat6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when 
thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and 
thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Mat6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: 
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth 
what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I'd say it is more of a tirade against TV preachers.....  ;-)  Perhaps more
of a warning to be very cautious about folks who make great noise in the 
name of their diety..... 

			As always	Zanz in the Fort
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: New Pagans and Reading
Date: 4 Sep 92 04:05:15 GMT


            General Mythology and Religious History

Benveniste, Emile. *Indo-European Language and Society*. tr. E. Palmer.
   Coral Gables, FL: University of Miami Press, 1973.

Campbell, Joseph. *The Hero with a Thousand Faces*. (Bollingen Series 17)
   Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1949.

Eliade, Mircea. *A History of Religious Ideas*. tr. W. Trask. Chicago:
   University of Chicago Press, 1978-1985, 3 vols.

Eliade, Mircea. *The Myth of the Eternal Return or Cosmos and History*.
   (Bollingen Series 46) tr. W. Trask. Princeton: Princeton University
   Press, 1971-1954.

Eliade, Mircea. *Rites and Symbols of Initiation*. tr. W. Trask. New York:
   Harper & Row, 1958. (Also published as *Birth and Rebirth*).

Eliade, Mircea. * Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy*. (Bollingen
   Series 76) tr. W. Trask. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1964.

Eliade, Mircea. *Yoga: Immortality and Freedom*. (Bollingen Series 56)
   tr. W. Trask. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1958.

Gennep, Arnold van. *The Rites of Passage*. tr. M.B. Vizdom and G.L. Caffee.
   Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1960.

Littleton, C. Scott. *The New Comparative Mythology: An Anthropological
   Assessment of the Theories of Georges Dumezil*. Berkeley: University
   of California Press, 1973, 1973, 2nd ed.

Mallory, J.P. *In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology
   and Myth*. London: Thames & Hudson, 1989.

Otto, Rudolf. *The Idea of the Holy*. tr. J.W. Harvey. Oxford:
   Oxford University Press, 1958.


Warning: Reading these books is hazardous to your preconceptions.

Thorfinn

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The use of history as therapy means 
the corruption of history as history.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Wicca (was Re: Pat Robertson)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 05:10:06 GMT

mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:

>In article <Bu0xyJ.C52@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>>mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
>>
>>> For example, the Celts didn't use four quarters or have tools associated
>>>with them. The Celts were polytheists, not duo-theists.
>>
>>Well, the elements you mention here are part of the Hermetic inheritance.  The
>>folk inheritance is at least as much Celtic as English.  The original four
>>Sabbats are the Celtic ones.  (Gardner added the equinoxes and solstices later.)
>>Also, many Witches are drawing on Celtic myth and folklore to flesh out the
>>Craft.  There are also Witches who draw on other cultures, but they usually
>>draw on many cultures rather than focussing on just one.  The basic cosmology
>>is derived from Celtic culture, though through such filters as Graves.  The
>>duo-theism is not historically accurate, but the various figures used to create
>>the Wiccan Lady and Lord were mostly Celtic.  What English folk elements are
>>you pointing at?  Herne?  The Green Man?  They exist in English folk-lore, but
>>there is clear evidence that they are Celtic in origin.

> Are they Celtic or are they Germanic through the Jutes, Saxons, etc? I
>have never heard anyone say or read it anywhere. I think the main
>difference is the Hermetic inheritance and the use of a duo-theistic
>structure (one Lord and one Lady) instead of the Celtic (or Germanic for
>that matter) Polytheistic structure. That is one of the reasons why groups
>like the ADF don't consider themselves Wiccan at all.

They are Celtic.  There is at least one inscription from Celtic Britain of
Roman times which identifies a horned figure of a god as Cernunnos.  This is the
source of the later name Herne.  Also, the Wild Hunt stories are even more
prevelant in Wales (a Celtic country) than in England.  I am not sure what the
first historical/archaeological incident of the Green Man is but I believe that
I have seen indications that it is more common in Celtic areas.  I am not sure
what the ADF has to do with the issue, since we were discussing Wiccan sources
and ADF is much more recent.  Where have you seen citations for Wicca being 
based on English folk-lore?  I've given evidence for my position twice now, but
you have yet to give even one example of what you mean.  You keep bringing up
elements which come in from Ceremonial Magic, but we started with the statement
that Wicca was created from Ceremonial elements, mixed with Celtic folklore.
What are you actually arguing?  What is your point?


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Jonathan Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:59:04 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <1992Aug31.163305.16331@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>
 jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

> esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) wrote in soc.culture.celtic:
>>  On soc.culture.british someone is asking about the Celtic Cross and if
>>  it is pagan or religious.  I posted an answer that it was religious.

> It's not often you see a Christian with a KICK ME sign quite so prominently
> displayed, is it?

> (Yes, Evelyn, it is religious, and in Europe the religion in question is
> the worship of the Unconquerable Sun; it predates The Thing That Dripped
> Blood by a few thousand years).

Hang on dere, man. You mean there are _pre-Christian_ British crosses?
WHERE? I presume we're talking about a distinct quartered-circle design,
here, not a triskele or swastika.

I mean I'd love this to be true ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jonathan Burns        | 
burns@latcs1.lat.oz.au| They are dangerous, Max, because they have what 
Computer Science Dept | you don't, a philosophy.
La Trobe University   |                           -Videodrome
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 13:10:37 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

> I really doubt the masons are "luciferian" in any religious sense...
Our Odhinnsgodi has a Masonic Bible that his father had before him.  In 
that bible it is clearly stated that they are Luciferians.  If i did not 
have a reason for stating such, I would not have made the statement.
 
Gerda Thunarsson

------------------
gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson)
(Alternate) gerda%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Subject: Re: Pagan music
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 04:19:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.005345.28786@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>
>radzy@icsi.berkeley.edu (me) said:
>> > [Heather Alexander]'s also doing something on September 5th (Saturday)
>> > in Portland Oregon, along with Tempest.
>
>It's a LOOOONG drive from SF to Portland!  What is it -- 14? 16? hours.
>Anyone done it recently and want to comment?
>
The drive is 10 hours if your foot weighs the same as my mother-in-laws
foot...about 400 lbs.  If you drive the speed limit...12...If you drive
like me...2 to 3 days because you stopped to camp on the coast, visit
friends, hold a ritual in the Redwoods and generally wandered around.
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: some more slightlPagan-flavored music
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:38:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <2A97F4DC.6236@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> 
> Okay, so it's not REALLY Pagan; it sure as hell feels like it.
> 
> It's an opera lled "Treemonisha," and it's written by Scott Joplin, the
> greatest American composer who ever drew breath, and one of the greatest
> in the world (I'm a serious ragtime lover, and am convinced that for
> sheer breadth, it remains the most vivid and underappreciated genre of
> music).  It concerns a woman named Treemonisha, daughter of Monisha, who

YES!! (I agree with your characterization of Joplin, though Louis Moreau
Gottschalk was also an incredible genius). I had the good fortune to
see a performance of this entire opera, something like the 4th-ever
performance of it. This was about 10 years ago. 

Dumb vaudeville joke:

Q:  How do you like Joplin?

A:  I don't know, I've never joppled.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Richard
(Tuneweaver)