Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tuesday, 1 Sep 1992 12:41:25 MST
From: Zafer KADI <KGZXK@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: comp.edu,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.misc,comp.arch,sci.math
Subject: Re: Scientists as Programmers (was Re: Small Language Wanted)
Distribution: na
 <1992Aug26.192410.6523@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
 <1992Aug27.154823.583@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
 <1992Aug31.133811.3626@crd.ge.com> <25910@dog.ee.lbl.gov>

I have been on both sides of issue (I have MS's in both Mech.Eng CS)

There is no one wrong or right on the issue of :

1. FORTRAN or anyother language.
   All you Computer Science major that think Fortran is so bad    can
you tell me anyother language that has all the forms of numbers
that the scinetist use such as integers, real numbers and COMPLEX
numbers.  If I am a CFD or any other dicipline that require
complex numbers, which language should I use?  Or should I become
a proficient C programmer to be able to develop my own comlex number
structure?  I am just at the beginning of desiding to leran how to program
should I use C  and make all kind of mistakes that are very difficult to
find or use Pascal and not able to have any tools for developing the
program but furthermore develop slower programs, and in bothe cases
no COMPLEX numbers.  HMMM.. there is a language called FORTRAN and has complex
numbers, it has Scientific Libraries, it has all kind of tools to debug and
develop programs, why not use that?   Yes, my Computer Science friend
told me that FORTRAN is the worst language in the world.  He must be right
and all those people in the industry must have eaten their brains for lunch.

This is a true story and happend last Spring when I had to take  S/W
development class.

The instructor asked how many know FORTRAN :

You heard the same laughs and smurks as we hear all the time on this
netpost, and only  3 people out of (60) raised their hand.

Then he asked how many know COBOL :

4 hands came up.

(This was senior level class, with most people graduating).

He just said welcome to the real world, when you get out
do not expect people to ask you to help, develop or program in
Pascal or even C.  (Ada sometimes), but COBOL and FORTRAN.

Issue # 2:

About having global variables or not and if making calls slows the
program and optimization:  Yes it does.

About the MIPS compiler :
 This compiler is not faultless :
  Example : Has a problem with complex numbers in FORTRAN when the
            -r8  option is used (does not promote them, even though
            it should.  If you have a DEC or an SGI they use the
   MIPS compiler

   To have the optimization of the nature that the previous person
mentioned about the compiler is to compiler everything together.
That will break the consept of modularity and the need to develop
each part of the program as a subrotuine or function, since at
the end you can insert it.   There are switches as I remember for that compiler
 to insert code.

As you see no one will win on this.  Do you want the program to be faster or
clearly written for your own standards.....

Issue # 3

Most of the professors here have conections with the industry and most of the
reseacrh done at ASU in Computer Sciences is closelly industry related.
No one can accuse profs of being in another universe here (in my opinion)


Issue # 4
CS major has no right of accusing other majors of not knowing the computers
well enough, because it mostly comes down to the person.

 Issue # 5
I totally agree that CS majors do not have enough knowledge
in mathematics and physics and if you are taking classes
in Computer Graphics or Computer Aidded Design  all you CS major that
thing that programming is everything in your job or knowing how
the computer works will realize it isn't so.
The above opinion is not only mine but most of the  profs in
the CS dept. at ASU, mostly Comp. Graph. and CAGD.


  Issue # 6

On the other hand as a consulatnt at ASU, I have seen scientists
that do not have the idea what computer is and when the computer
does something "illogical" they say it  is not them but

the computer.
One person said:

     "Your computer is stupid !"

In my opinion, if you want to learn how to program, you should at least know
about how the numbers are stored on the computer .

The amaizing thing is I have seen papers written based on some strange reslt.
Most of the old Fortran 77 books talk about it but the new once skip it
and so many people skip those pages anyway.

My two cents

No one is wrong and no one is right as far as the job gets done.