From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Fetal Brainwaves
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:00:28 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin TX

[ Someone should save this article.  It gives two developmental references
  showing that a child is quite developed at 8 weeks. ]

In article <1992Aug20.170106.29756@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
> That's nice, John, but it's the first time I've seen you do it that I
> recall.  That might explain my 'conspicuously non-existent response',
> wouldn't you say?

No, because the last time you mentioned this "mysterious" friend of
yours who had taken some biology course or another.  It was after I
demanded that you produce said "mystery friend" that you had no
reply.

I am still waiting for your reply.

>                             Sorry if that doesn't meet with your
> schedule, but the rest of us aren't going to order our lives around
> the demands of John Haugh II, no matter how important he might think
> he is.
 
You jump on my case for not providing references, and I go off and find
them.  It seems like anything less is HYPICRISY.  Do you know how to
spell hipicrit?

> Hmmm, I hadn't considered that.  I had assumed that everyone was
> counting from conception, since that seems to me to be the 'natural'
> starting point that would occur to most people when they heard a
> statement which talks about "X days" with regard to a pregnancy.
 
No, Fred, most everyone does like the doctors do.

> >	"Since pregnancy is dated medically from the first day of your
> >	 last period, the record begins with what is termed the third
> >	 week of a 40 week pregnancy, the week of conception."
> >			-- The Complete Book of Pregnancy and Childbirth
 
See.

> Or perhaps the 6 to 8 weeks are also counted as starting after that 3
> weeks you mention, in which case it become 9 to 11 weeks.  Not quite
> to the 4 month point, but closer to what I was told than it was
> before.  
 
But you are absolutely stuck with the 40 days after conception figure.
Add the 14 days after the start of the previous menses and you are quite
limited to 54 days, or less than 8 weeks.  Besides, everyone knows that
13 weeks is 3 months.  Watch -

52 weeks per years / 12 months per year * 3 months = 13 weeks.

11 weeks is about 2 1/2 months, and 9 weeks is just over 2 months.

But nice try.

What?  You have a degree in Mathematics?

> Another possible interpretation comes to mind, though.  Since your
> chart is entitled "Fetal Growth", should we consider that Day 1 of
> that chart is the first day when the embryo is classified as a fetus
> (I've always preferred the spelling foetus, personally, but oh well).
> I believe that that is generally considered to be at the end of the
> first trimester (3 months).  That would put your '40 day' figure from
> the chart at roughly 120 days into the pregnancy (midway through the
> second trimester), which is 4 months (and there is no inconsistency
> between what you posted and what I've said).  That's consistent and is
> the sort of presentation I would expect in a 'pro-life' chart.

Bwhahahahahaha.

Too lazy to even read the reference I PROVIDED to see what it says.  First
some notes.  The numbers in () are numbers the way doctors number
pregnancies.  The most interesting thing is that doctors start from 1, not
0.  The first day is "week 1", so is the sixth day.  The paragraphs which
start with "*" are from "The Complete Book of Pregnancy and Childbirth",
the rest is from "1250 Health-Care Questions Women Ask".

Time from
Fertilization                      Growth

24-35 hours     The egg divides into two cells.  This occurs in the fallopian
(Wk #3)		tube where the egg and the sperm unite.

*		Your baby is a cluster of cells which multiply rapidly as they
		continue the journey along the fallopian tube.

21 days         The heart begins beating and the brain begins to develop.
(Wk #6)

*               The baby has developed a head and a trunk, and a rudimentary
		brain has formed.  Tiny limb buds are beginning to appear.
		By the end of this week its circulation is beginning to
		function.  The jaw and mouth are developing and 10 dental
		buds are growing in each jaw.

26 days         Arm buds develop
(Wk #6)

28 days         Legs begin to develop.  The baby is the size of an apple seed
(Wk #7)         (about 1/6 to 1/4 inch in length) and is 10,000 times larger
		than the fertilized egg from which it started.

*		The limb buds have developed rapidly and now look like tiny
		arms and legs.  At the end of these limbs are small
		indentations which will later become fingers and toes.  The
		spinal cord and brain are now almost complete and the head
		is assuming a human shape.  The baby is now about 1/2 in
		(1.3 cm) long.

35 days         The eyes begin forming and by the end of this (second) month
(Wk #8)         the ears, nose, lips, and tongue can be clearly identified.

*		The baby now has all its main internal organs though they are
		not yet fully developed.  The eyes and ears are growing, and
		the face is beginning to take on a human shape.  The baby is
		just under an inch (2.5 cm) long.

40 days         The baby's brain waves can be detected, recorded, and even
(Wk #8)         read by a doctor.

If you abort a child at 40 days, it will have eyes and ears to see and
hear what is going on.  It will have arms and legs to struggle with.
And the spinal cord will be completely formed and functional.  This child
will have all of the survival instincts that homo sapien evolved over the
last million or so years.  And when the abortionist comes along, that
child is going to be PISSED OFF.

> Anyway, as I've said repeatedly now, you'll get a reference or
> retraction when Jeanie gives one to me.  If that's not good enough for
> you, well, tough rocks.

Right.  I waited once before.  You used the same line once before.  This
time I've given you TWO references for the price of one.

Squirm, Fred, Squirm.
See Fred Squirm.

In case you can't figure it out, I've got OTHER pregnancy books laying
around.  And I've got a wife with a BA in Biology and a mother with a
BS (same subject ;-) and they BOTH still have some of their textbooks.

As I've said before, I limit my references for YOUR benefit.  You should
take advantage of my kindness instead of biting the hand that feeds you.
I'd advise you to do like John Iacoletti does and just accept that a
fetus IS a human being.  At least he bases his arguments on the claimed
right of a woman to eject an unwelcome guest.  Trying to base your
argument on the child not being "alive" (as defined by virtually all
doctors when applied to adults - heartbeat, brainwaves, response to
external stimulii) is dumb.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Life's Little Instruction Book:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            | "#138.  Learn Spanish.  In a few years,
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  more than 35% of all Americans will speak
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  it as their first language."