From: pjn+@cs.cmu.edu (P J Narayanan)
Subject: Re: comments -  Response to comments?
Followup-To: alt.culture.kerala
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:28:22 GMT

In article <1dsov9INN1gh@gap.caltech.edu> milhouse.caltech.edu!sathi (Narayana Sateesh Pillai) writes:
>	Obviously, the advertisement cited did capture everyone's 
>attention. So you must admit that it did achieve it's goal.

Firstly, it is not clear it caught everyone's attention in the right
sense, that of promoting the product. It could merely have satisfied
the voyeuristic tendencies of some. Secondly, it is not clear that
equally effective alternative is not available.

>Why didn't the women who helped
>to make the add make a fuss about it? Didn't they think it was wrong?
>So you have some people who think it's all right to do anything for the
>sake of money (prostitution is a good example). As long as there are 
>people like that, you can't do anything. 

Ha! Blame the victim! You think prositutes do what the do because they
see it as a nice means to quick money? You think they enjoy being
prostitutes? There will always be women who get forced into
prostitution if social conditions remain the same. While not as
obvious, advertising is how it is because of the overwhelming desire
by the (male dominated) society to view women as sexual objects.

>	Ethics has a fussy boundary. In this era of increasing knowledge,
>and increasing yearning for knowledge, one may even forget about ethics!
>Example: Is it wrong for other species of animals to be killed so that
>homo sapiens may survive? On the one hand you have search for knowledge,
>on the other, a selfish fight for survival.

The question may be of ethics. All ethical questions, however, are not
equal merely by being ethical questions. I strongly oppose the
fallacious argument that reduces one ethical question into a more
nebulous one to "prove" nothing can be done. We don't have to find
solutions to all ethical questions simultneously.

>	In regards to the advertisement cited, you have a company trying
>to sell itself, and on the other hand, you have people who may be
>incited to violence. Which is more important? If the company doesn't 
>sell, then people may lose jobs. Unemployemnet increases. This leads to 
>frustration of the masses => violent riots etc. 
>	If the people are incited to violence, the gun companies will
>be happy if they buy guns. This means more jobs for people who work in
>gun related fields. This may also mean more practice for lawyers. And that
>may generate ancillary jobs like that of clerical posts etc. The city
>governments may even hire more police men. The city of LA is going to do 
>just that. So I conclude that more violence will increase employment also!
>	But in one case, you have mob violence, which is uncontrollable,
>resulting from massive unemployment. On the other hand, a few handful of
>individuals (not the entire population) will be incited to violence.
>	Based on this analysis, I conclude that society will profit more
>if such advertisements are allowed.

Your analysis holds water only if:

   1. Exploitative advertising is the only means for that company to
	survive.
   2. There are no other means of livelihood in the society other than
	this company and gun companies (and possibly lawyers, police).
   3. Unemployment -> frustration -> riots is the only path and NOTHING
	can break it.

Granting these leap-of-faith assumptions, your conclusion is valid!

>TATA!
>Sateesh

In my view, the society has to realize that women are viewed
overwhelmingly as mere sexual objects. This realization will have its
effect elsewhere also, and should be the goal of the efforts against
such advertisements. I view the process of opposing the ads and the
ensuing discussion as important as, if not more important than, having
the advertisements removed. It is the process, as is the case with all
social movements, that is educational.

PJN

-- 
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Robotics Institute, CMU			pjn@cs.cmu.edu
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
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Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA