From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Philosophy for Gordon (Was Re: Choice for men)
Date: 26 Sep 92 13:08:32 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

First, let's play a little round of knock-off points just
to get warmed up....

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
| >The draft-registration issue is the surface of a very
| >serious problem, which involves the belief, culturally 
| >conveyed to many males in our society, and accepted by 
| >almost everybody, that violence is neat and you're not 
| >really a man if you can't deal in it.

gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
| The draft issue is, more than anything else, a question of freedom.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but the argument
had assumed this and gone down the road aways.

gf:
| >      ...  Instead of attacking feminism, men could be 
| >using feminist analyses to decode their own problems.  

hg:
| Your feminist analyses reminds me the following paragraph:

[ someone doesn't experience being in the army ]
| 
| The insistence of people with no first hand experience in being drafted
| that they understand the problem much better has no base, IMO.

First of all, I'm a feminist and grew up at a time when 
all young men, just about, were threatened with a real, 
live draft.  I spent three years in the Army.  I hope my
credentials are adequate for you in this area.

Second, I'm obviously talking about using feminist
analyses, not feminist life-experiences.  There is a
difference, although it pains me to think I will have to
explain it.  It's like going back to grade school.

gf:
| >One
| >of the outcomes of such an analysis would be the formation
| >of organizations to oppose the violence system in general
| >and draft registration in particular.  

hg:
| The feminists I agree with tend to be pro-freedom and not so much
| anti-violence.  ...

Freedom and violence are antithetical, millennia of
propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding. 

| >             ....  That's not the way things get done in
| >America politically.  People who effect any change work
| >on their own problems first, however they may feel about
| >other people's.
| 
| 1) In the early 70's your generation tried to do just that, 
|    and your influence was greatly reduced.

Here's "generation" again.  What's "my generation"?  Is it
like the song by The Who?  My gggggggeneration?  What the
hell are you talking about?

| 2) Why don't you take some examples from successful (in getting
|    a *change*) revolutions?  Why the new generation should accept
|    your claim about how things should be done?  Were you such a 
|    great success story?

Well, does my "gggggeneration" get credit for the Civil
Rights movement, the anti-Vietnam-War movement, and the
feminist movement?  You seem to feel that the last-named
was a powerful political thrust that changed everything
and is to be blamed for any defects (like draft 
registration) remaining today.  Which is it?  

gf:
| >                                       ...  Anyone with any
| >consciousness of the Left in America is all too familiar 
| >with this state of affairs.  

hg:
| I wonder how many of you read what Marx had to say about 
| the question of the Jews...

This is really relevant.  Let's skip ahead....

[ Women Strike for Peace ]
| It just proves that in the time that feminism was on the *rise* it
| did not work by "the way things get done in America politically."

Do you want to think that one through again?  Women Strike for
Peace made opposition to the draft a major item on their
agenda.  They don't seem to be around any more.  NOW didn't
seem to exist then, but they have concentrated on women's
issues (although I believe they oppose the draft).  They are
around and thriving.  It seems that the example supports my 
point and disproves yours.

Now we've come down to the bottom, in more than one sense,
I'm going to invite you to read my articles for meaning 
instead of knock-off points.  There's one in soc.feminism
and one here and of course others generally on the subject.
Try, for once, to see something besides material for your
anti-feminist crusade.

When you've done that, maybe we can play a game of put
up or shut up.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )