HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Relationship presumes existence
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:46:21 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <Oct.12.02.21.51.1992.19778@geneva.rutgers.edu> 
baillie@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Stephen Baillie) writes:

>If someone can provide evidence
>or an alternative hypothesis that makes more sense than the existance of
>a God, then I must, to be honest with myself, accept that hypothesis.

This is not a Christian position.  Christianity is about relationship
with God.  You cannot possibly have a relationship, when you are willing
to consider the non-existence of one party to the relationship.
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Oregon hate has come full circle
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:14:58 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Oct.8.01.07.29.1992.12640@geneva.rutgers.edu> entropy@world.std.com
(The Entropic one) writes:
>Currently the OCA (Oregon Citizens Alliance) a group sponsored by CBN is
>trying to pass an anti gay constitutional admendment in Oregon.

>In the past few months there have been hundreds of anti gay attacks
>in Oregon. A number attacking opposition offices and stealing mailing
>lists, others attacks on people and property. Last week two people where
>finally killed in these attacks when a molotov cocktail was thrown into
>a basement apartment.

>At this point the catholic church finally took a stand again #9 (the measure
>being proposed by the OCA). The most recent attacks by the pro OCA terrorists
>have now been turned on churchs.

    I'll try not to step out of bounds, and I don't think I have to.  The
orthodox Christian is not against homosexuals, or at least shouldn't be if they
think it through (most don't think period).  Orthodoxy stands against any life
style that is contrary the principles expressed in the Scriptures, by the
Historical orthodox Church and by the traditions of the fathers, councils and
creeds.  We're against the sin, not the sinner.  
   This has been brought to force even in my little town and now into my
immediate family.  We are a white community.  An individual who had lived here
and had old family ties to the community, went away to college and came back
with a black spouse.  They bought a house.  It was burnt down before they could
move in.  
    Both these examples should bring us to tears and to our knees.  Too often
we Christians live in our protected cloisters.  How are we ever going to turn
this society around if we don't let "this little light of mine, I'm going to
let it shine."  Instead we do exactly what the song says we shouldn't "hide it
under a basket? NO! I'm going to let it shine, let it shine, let it shine." 
How many of us learnt this song as children and yet do we not now see the depth
of it?  Christianity is about people. People helping other people whether they
are accepting Christ or not.  That is what demonstrates the reality of our
faith.  People have worth in and of themselves.  All men  are created in the
image of God.  They don't become men, they are men.  
   I've said it before, and I'm going to say it until people start to think it
and claim it for themselves - we're living in a post-Xian era. Until you come
to grasp with this you will have little success in your Xian call.

GRACE: God's Riches At Christ's Expense

Rex
From: borchert@walt.MsState.Edu (Chris Borchert)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Charity address wanted from Petra's U.P.
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:16:28 GMT
Organization: /home/grad/borchert/.organization

Could someone please email me the address of the charity organization 
found in Petra's "Unseen Power" CD.  Seems like the name was "Save
the Children."

Thanks,
Chris Borchert
borchert@CS.MsState.Edu
--
Chris Borchert
borchert@CS.MsState.Edu
From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Can Scripture define roles and relationships?
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:10:05 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

It is interesting, though not uncommon, that when an issue is raised that is
contrary to the status quo you can (1) compromise in order to preserve a 
perception of unity or (2) defend the position (or abandon it) based on
Scripture.  This is why the presidential "debate" I saw tonight is quite
different than the message I heard in my church this past Sunday.  Of course,
I have the audacity to believe in Scriptural absolutes handed us by God :^)

While the Scriptures may speak clearly about the roles of husbands and 
wives, parents and chiodren, masters and slaves, should we not seek
to delineate it because of the threat of disunity?  Division due to
arrogance or beligerance is one thing, but we must leave some room for
right and wrong.

Can we discuss options based on Scripture, or must we first deflect the 
pretext of unity through the dilution of truth?

John
From: motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Help Needed
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:12:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Greetings.

I am not usually a reader of this newsgroup, but I am a Christian
and I was hoping that you could help me in my efforts to minister
to a group that has called into question whether or not a person
can be a Christian and a rational thinker at the same time.

The question posed is:
Russell Lawrence writes:
rl> It's not my intention to ridicule his religion.  However, I would
rl> like to discover how/why a man whose own beliefs are based on
rl> "faith" can reasonably label another man's comments as "idiotic".
rl> Can you explain it to me?

jh> Many people, quite learned, empirical and rational have religious
jh> faith.  The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. 

rl>Proof?


I have a quote from Albert Einstein, "God does not play dice."

But can anyone provide me with evidence of scientists and other
"empirical" thinkers (mathematicians come to mind) who were
also religious?  Russ Lawrence has been bashing a Christian
and discrediting his opinions because of Christian beliefs.

Please respond via email or post.  Thanks.

Mary Otto
From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Transubstantiation: Why Bother?
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:47:20 GMT

Various and sundry people have gone back and forth on whether anglicans do
or do not believe in transsubstantiation.  Someone even quoted from the 39
articles.

Trying to ferret out official anglican positions on theological issues is
more or less a waste of time unless you understand that in general there are
no iron clad answers.  The last Anglican Theological Review had a scholarly
article about the authority of scripture in the Episcopal Church.  It took
numerous pages simply to explore the various sources (of which there were
four), and at one point the author vetured the opinion that one statement of
the House of Bishops certainly lacked authority insofar as it contradicted
the constitution and canons of the church.  Simply picking up the 39
articles won't do; nobody in the church, as far as I know, -- certainly no
layperson-- is required to subscribe to them.

The only official position I know of is strictly liturgical: episcopal
churches do not bar people from communion on the basis of theology.  With
two exceptions, both involving moral conduct, anyone who is baptized is
welcomed to partake.  As a rule, episcopalians are mostly trans- or cons- or
some more vague version of real presence.  As a rule, memorialist views are
rejected, but again, this is not held to be an impediment.

From my perspective, this is the more important question: why should anyone
care?  I've been reading a lot of amish material recently, and in turning to
this discussion I'm struck by the observation that, following the rubrics of
the prayerbook, Jacob Ammann would very likely be excluded from communion
not because of his theology, but because of his divisive behavior.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Public School Prayer
Date: 10 Oct 92 06:40:11 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:

[...]
>I failed to mention that Bush, Reagan and the fundamentalist Christians
>whom you call "self-righteous" are pushing for VOLUNTARY school prayer.
[...]

The Republican Platform goes well beyond supporting voluntary
student prayer (which, after all, is Constitutionally protected):

From the Republican Party Platform:

"America ... must not remain neutral toward religion itself or the
values religion supports.  Mindful of our country's Judeo-Christian
heritage and rich religious pluralism, we support ... the right of the
community to [pray] at commencements or other occasions. We also
advocate recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools as a
reminder of the principles that sustain us as one Nation under God."

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Revelations...
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:27:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)


	How do you all out there know that they guy who wrote it
was not mental ? I do not mean that as a flame or anything, but it
seems as if the guy who wrote it was mental or on LSD or something...

-- 
"Speak to me in many voices, make them all sound like one.
 Let me see your sacred mysteries. Reveal to me the unknown tounge."--B.O.C.
A. Trent Phillips | bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu | alias: White Rook
aa1439@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu | NWROC Email: usr6418a@tso.uc.edu

[I assume this posting refers to the NT book, the Revelation to John.
While we obviously can't know the mental state of the author, the book
fits into a literary genre that was well established in 1st Cent.
Judaism.  It looks off the wall primarily because the viewpoint and
way of using symbols aren't as familiar to us as they would have been
to the readers.  --clh]
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (10-9)
Date: 10 Oct 92 06:19:28 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Friday, October 9:

     The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, 
kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.  
<Galatians 5: 22, 23>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: sl313028@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jon Marcus Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bible Software Advice
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:28:30 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

Check this out!  There's a version of the bible that's absolutely FREE
and works GREAT! (i've got it, i know) it's called the On-Line Bible,
and it *was* available via anonymous ftp to wuarchive.wustl.edu, but was
taken off.  i've been preparing (and procrastinating) to re-upload it
there.  it has a gizellion supplements, all free except a few versions
(i know that you must purchace the NIV but it's only about 20-30
dollars).  the search is FAST very fast.  i had it running on an 8088
and it's pretty remarkable even there...now on my 386(16) it almost
seems the same...it's also available on most Christian BBS's (if you
want a list, i'll send you one). that's where i had to get my other
verson (someone's still got my original :( ) but i'd recommend it
definitely...it comes with windows pifs (it's a DOS program) and has
Logitech mouse support (via Logimenu command).  it's one of the BEST out
there, and (i think) it pays if you find a bug in it (how's THAT for
free software). you'll at least need to get the INSTALL diskette, and
the AV modules (king james version) or whatever version you want.  it
also has plenty of Greek and Hebrew versons (NT & OT respectively) and a
printer deriver for epsons.  it has Lot's of features that i don't have
time to mention right now.  (read the To-order.doc for details although
most of the stuff you can find there is free) Lexicon keyed to strongs
numbers, color configuration (a personal favorite (: ) and (like i said)
more!!!

[if you want it from me, you can send me some diskettes and sufficient
postage,or i'll charge you 50 cents a diskette [base version= ~7
diskettes]) it takes up about 7M disk space for the base version, but
with topics & scofield notes, & different versions, it can easily take
up 10-15M!! but worth every penny (*grin*).]

mail me for more info...
jon madison
(vi or die, Linux rulez!!! read comp.os.linux for details)
sl313028@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
(Jah Live!)
From: rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Just an overturned curse...?
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:12:54 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre

Greetings.

I have a question that came out of a conversation with a friend a while back, 
and a discussion here has just reminded me of it.

My friend would maintain that at Calvary, the curse(s) which were a result of 
the Fall were not merely * overturned *, but rather, the death and 
resurrection of Christ accomplished something even greater; namely that for 
those of us who believe, we are "better off" than were Adam and Eve pre-Fall.

That is to say, Christ did not merely reverse the effects of the Fall, but 
went one stage better:  We are more "blessed" than Adam and Eve in the Garden 
of Eden.  I think his argument went along the lines that Adam and Eve had no 
need of salvation, (until they sinned, obviously), and being in a state of 
grace is far better than not needing grace.... or something like that.
  Somewhere in the NT we read "angels long to look into these things", 
suggesting that being objects of His grace and mercy, we are truly favoured - 
and thus extremely well off.  (I know we are, but that's not the question).

What are the thoughts of you wise people on this, are we better off as we are, 
or would it have been better never to have gone astray in the first place??  
Did Christ reverse the curse, or did He go further than that?

This is * not * a trick question!

Yours, 
Richard

R. P. Grant                             rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Chemical Pathology Department           Tel. +44 865 275565
Sir William Dunn School of Pathology    Fax. +44 865 275556
OXFORD OX1 3RE
U.K


"I canna break the laws of physics!"
From: laut@alien.gici.com (Bill Laut)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Government Subsidizing Religion?
Date: 16 Oct 92 08:14:28 GMT
Organization: Gull Island Consultants, Inc.

In article <Oct.13.01.23.22.1992.21971@geneva.rutgers.edu>, cnc405@bnr.ca (Charles (C.F.) Board) writes:
> 
> As an atheist this disturbs me. It looks like we DO have government
> subsidies for religious proslytizing.  True, this is not a direct government
> expenditure - but every time this man gives money to to further Christian
> propaganda, money that would have gone to the US treasury doesn't. So someone
> else (all of us, actually) must pay more. I'm curious what the Christian
        ?????????
> viewpoints are on forcing non-believers to support your religion through
> charitable deduction laws, property tax exemptions,etc?
>

"All of us?"  You're up in Canada!  You pay taxes to Uncle Sam?! (smirk) :)
        ^^^

Seriously though:  Jesus said, "As you measure it out to others, so shall 
it be measured back to you."  For me, this means that if I don't want my
access to proslytize taken away, then I *first* must grant that same access
to others.  And yes, that includes gays, lesbians, splinter groups, etc., 
who may be preaching a message that is contrary to what is in the Bible.
While I may hate their message, it's likely they equally hate mine, and
so my recourse is to stand on the Word and discipline myself to accept
what Jesus said, and conduct myself accordingly.  Even if I have to grit
my teeth doing it.

BTW, the reason I'm picking on gays here is thusly:  I have a friend who
turned out gay.  One of the things he used to advocate was the right of
homosexuals to proslytize young boys.  I used to be a very liberal person
up to that point, but that's the time I decided it was time to "draw the
line in the sand," as it were, and told him that if he *ever* approached
any kids of my friends, I cut his friggin' nuts off.

I realize I'm probably waffling all over the place.  I guess I try to be
as accomodating as I can.  However, when a group or individual tries to
ply that generosity as a weakness, it's time to knock 'em in the side of
the head.

Comments?  Do we have the makings of a new thread?


-- 
Bill Laut			Internet:  laut@alien.gici.com
Gull Island Consultants, Inc.	Phone:     (616) 780-3321
Muskegon, MI  49440		>> "Usual disclaimers, apply within" <<
From: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Scott Aaron)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God and sexism
Date: 7 Oct 92 05:17:59 GMT
Reply-To: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

In article <Oct.6.00.39.34.1992.8632@geneva.rutgers.edu>, I2LY@cornella.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>IF we look at the life of Jesus, we see that He
>treated women in a way that was radically different than the cultural
>norm;
>he showed enormous respect  and compassion even for those women who were
>social outcasts, such as prostitutes.   

Also keep in mind that the following events.  1)  The first person to whom
Jesus revealed himself as Messiah was a woman (John 4--woman at the well).
2)  The first people to whom Jesus revealed himself after rising were
women.  3)  The first evangelists were those same women (they were told to
go and tell the apostles that Jesus had risen).  4)  Jesus' supposed father
Joseph only appears for Jesus' birth scenes but Mary shows up throughout
Jesus' ministry.  And so on.  Women played a very important role in Jesus'
life and ministry, just as important as the men.  The role of men and women
may be different in the church and women may be denied certain posititons in
the church because of this difference (only one actually--that of pastor) but
that is not to be taken as a sign of inferiority or subjugation.  Women are just
as important as men.

  -- Scott @Brandeis

                           I asked Jesus,
                     "How much do you love me?"
                     "This much," He answered;
                        and He stretched out
                         His arms and died.
From: hartley@maths.uwa.oz.au (Mike Hartley)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Good News !!!
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:07:33 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia

I heard, recently, on a Christian radio station news report, that
Jimmy Bakker, currently serving a long prison sentence for something
or other, has issued a public statement asking forgiveness for preaching
a false gospel, and has stated that "under no circumstances can material
prosperity be equated with spirituality" (or words to that effect).

"And he will stand, for God is able to make him stand"

Yours, Mike H....

--
Michael Hartley 		    _-_|\  | "All things works for good to
hartley@madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au     /	 \ |  them that love God - them that
University of WA ----------------> *_.-._/ |  are the called according to His
					v  |  purpose" - Romans 8:28
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Was Sign of Jonah / 3 days etc.
Date: 8 Oct 92 04:57:12 GMT
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department

ccjwm@marlin.jcu.edu.au (John Miller) writes:

>I'd like to ask those of you who would know better than I how the 
>times "6th hour" and "9th hour" mentioned in Mark 15:33 relate to 
>time expressed as we would ie. am/pm?  I guess this is probably
>a FAQ, sorry, but I would like to know.

The "first" hour corresponds to 6 AM, so 6th and 9th correspond to
12 noon and 3 PM respectively.

>Secondly, if Jesus was crucified in the evening, what was the 
>significance of the "darkness" since mere heavy cloud cover could 
>have caused just such an effect at night?

>	At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land till the
>	ninth hour.		Mark 15:33

This may have something to do with Joel 2:31. "The sun shall be turned
into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and awful day of
the LORD." At any rate, in "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", Josh McDowell
quotes early Christian Julias Africanus as referring to the Samaritan
historian Thallus: "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains
away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun -- unreasonably it seems to
me." Seeing as how a solar eclipse can not take place at the time of
the full moon that marks Passover. But it proves that the darkness was
a well know event and required a naturalistic explanation.
_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
From: chas@castle.ed.ac.uk (C Spencer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The subject of music within religion
Date: 16 Oct 92 07:51:05 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

There seem to me to be two distinct subject areas - there's listening to
and playing secular music, including music originally written as
religious, now normally played in concert halls and theatres; and
there's using music in a Christian context (Ephesians 5:19, for
example).

The second is obviously good, though I think it's better just to do it,
than to try and talk about the experience. But people who're willing to
play musical intruments for Jesus seem to be welcome; some songs are
more meaningful than others.

Getting involved in music generally is a good question. I love classical
music, and listen a lot, and, very occasionally, play. Often, strong
human emotions and thoughts are expressed in music. But there can be
conflicts.

Chas


-- 
Chas Spencer			email :	Chas@ed.ac.uk
User Support, EUCS
University of Edinburgh
From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Created in his image?
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:46:06 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

>[The volition and intellect seem clear.  I thought that classically God
>was said to be impassible, and that this implied a lack of emotions.
>--clh]
jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie) writes:
>God being impassible is an example of Greek philosophy's influence on
>Christian doctrine.  To maintain that God doesn't have emotions, you
>have to say that the descriptions of God having emotions are metaphors. 
>I think that it is better to ditch the idea
>of God being impassible, since it seems to be in conflict with the
>plain reading of Scripture.

If you jettison God's impassibility, however, you must be prepared also
to jettison God's other three "metaphysical attributes"--timelessness,
immutability, and -- what's the other one? Probably that metaphysical
albatros, infinity. But if these go, much of the substance of the Christian 
philosophical/theological tradition goes with it.  Are you prepared to go
that far?
//////////////////////////////////////
/* Kenny  *   Welcome to Mind Wars! */
//////////////////////////////////////
From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: opinions on the big bang needing a external cause
Date: 8 Oct 92 04:55:52 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

Dear moderator:
  Why this thread on whether or not God exists.  Save that for
talk.religion.  This newsgroup is soc.religion.christian and should be
reserved for those who either consider themselves Christians or those
truly seeking answers about Christ.  Not intellectual dissertations
about proving the existance of God.  It is bad enough that there are
countless articles to sift through each morning, but to have to screen
these is too much. Please moderate.  Thanks.  Mark

[If people generally feel this way, I'd be just as happy to prohibit
it, but it seemed to me that questions about God's existence fit
within the subject matter of the group.  --clh]