From: michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Michael)
Subject: Re: Football: Robert Sheaffer's Central Metaphor?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:45:05 GMT

In <1992Dec20.203514.7086@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <michael.724789235@glia> michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Michael) writes:
>>In <1992Dec18.193705.12869@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec16.232603.3881@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>>>>	Women in football? Always as cheerleaders, who are usually
>>>>scantily clad sex objects. They are not really important to the game,
>>>>it must be said. I personally have nothing against exhibitionism in
>>>>principle, just against exploitation.
>>>Yes, a well-paid female actress (for that is what these are), having
>>>an exciting, fast-paced life and undoubtedly dozens of highly attractive
>>>suitors, is *exploited* something fierce. We've got to make them stop
>>>doing this, for their own good. Frankly, I think they should
>>>all be forced to wear the chador (sp?), like the cheerleaders at
>>>Teheran State U.
>>Personally I don't care whether men or women are dressed scantily
>>or in sexually provocative ways.  I don't care if men or women do
>>strip acts on stage.  I don't care if men or women appear partially
>>clothed or complete nude in magazines.  If those men and women choose
>>to do so for money, that is THEIR decision and not anyone elses to
>>object to.
>>
>>If however our culture leaves men or women with no other choice than
>>to do these things for money AND these acts invade the actors
>>privacy or cause psychological harm, 
>                  ------------------
>By who's determination? If the strippers do not object, but others
>do, what then? 

Well, abused victims don't always object either.  Obviously the
government is going to have to step in and make a determination.
Since they can't do so in EVERY case, we are left with a similar
problem as that of abuse victims.  Its a tricky situation to deal with.
The best I know at this point is to create agencies that can help
victims find their way out of their mess and to make the victims
aware of that possibility.

As for solving the root of the problem...  That's much more difficult.
I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that now.

However banning all erotica because there are bad people who abuse others
in creating erotica is like saying some people say things that are harmful
so lets ban free speech.  Oh its not the SAME thing exactly, but the point
I'm trying to make is clear I think?

>>                                        then I think we need to take
>>a look at our system and fix the problem.  
>Who is "we", and how would such a problem be fixed? If you have spent
>20 years as a stripper, and have no other talents, todays job market 
>will be unlikely to treat you kindly. Anyone with no job skills will
>have the same problem however.

Yes, this problem is not limited to strippers.  Its a broader problem.
In a sense its fallout from not having dealt with the central issue
sooner.  But the answer to this problem is the same with anyone who
has no skills.  We need to find a way to train them without making such
a process a huge burden on society.  There are solutions to that, but
none of them are easy ones.

>>                                         So long as these things are
>>done by free choice, it is not exploitation.
>Not according to some oft-quoted feminists.

So?  What I've said is my opinion.  Any feminists who disagree are
certainly entitled to their opinion as well.  And I'd lay odds that
not all feminists think that.

>>I will however object to kids in pornography.  

>>                                               I also object to the
>>way women are often portrayed in erotica as helpless or mindless.
>>I enjoy seeing strong women every bit as often as helpless women.
>>Frankly I get pretty damn tired of seeing helpless women waiting on
>>men.

>But strong women are not often portrayed as having relationships,
>or choosing to do things for men. In fact, the strong women that I
>recall on TV are full of clever rejoinders and always beat the cheating
>men at their own game. There are some exceptions, but I stress the
>word exception.

Are you suprised?  I would think that beating men at their own game
would appeal to many women.  And if strong women are portrayed as having
relationships, then that is a big mistake by our media.  I'd love to
see that happen more often.

    Michael Stanley (michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu)