HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Eric Topp <topp@roses.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Wheel Wonderings
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7761CD6220100EE@cdr-va-macs2-dynamic.stanford.edu>
X-Xxdate: Sun, 10 Jan 93 02:35:02 GMT
Organization: Rehabilitation R&D Center
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 02:34:37 GMT

In article <1460053@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> Jobst Brandt,
jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM writes:
>That aero spokes work adequately is not surprising when many wheels
>in use are built with substantially lower tension that optimal.
>Optimal trnsion for a wheel is when the spokes are about as tight as
>the rim can withstand because the wheel can support loads only until
>the bottom spokes become slack.  Of course being a little low on
>tension is not so much a cause for catastrophic failure as it is for
>gradual loss of wheel alighment.  A spoke that becomes momentarily
>loose, will allow the nipple to unscrew a little at a time.  This is
>the cause of the classic wheel that won't stay true even after
>several trips to the shop.  It is most often too loose.

In article <1993Jan5.170840.26801@ObjecTime.on.ca> Peter Epstein,
peter@helix.ObjecTime.on.ca writes:
>If you have trouble keeping your spokes from getting loose, you can apply
>locktite to the threads.  There is a special kind of locktite for this
>purpose that you apply afterwords, rather than the more common variety
>that you apply directly to the threads before you screw on the nipple.
>You apply this type of locktite via the end of the spoke (where the
>screwdriver slot is).

This is a paradox of wheel building.  You'd like the nipple to turn freely
when you build the wheel, to minimize spoke wind-up, yet you don't want
the
nipple to unscrew as you ride. Lubricants like oil and grease don't
prevent
spoke loosening.  Thread binding agents like locktite can make truing
difficult.

Old timers used linseed oil on the spoke threads when building which
acted as a
lubricant while while the wheel was tensioned and trued and then hardened
to act
as a thread binder.  Alternatively, one can crimp the nipple slightly so
it
resists turning freely (this can be done after the wheel is built).

There are specially made spoke thread compounds that address both
problems.
Applied to the spoke threads and allowed to dry before building, it
prevents no-load turning of the nipple because of binding due to its
thickness.  Special formulation of the compound reduces friction at high
loads, lessening spoke wind-up. (If you like, you can use lubricants on
top
of the spoke thread compound, without effecting the resistance to no-load
turning).

I can really tell the difference between treated an untreated spokes when
I
true a wheel; wheels with treated spokes true easily and are remarkably
stable when riden.  I wouldn't even consider building a wheel without it.
If you use torque at the spoke key as a measure of spoke tension, you'd
better recalibrate or you'll easily overtension  a wheel with treated
spokes.

Disclaimer:  I learned much of what I know about bicycle wheels while in
the employ of Wheelsmith Inc.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:10:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.181212.5584@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, paynter@bnr.ca (Stuart Paynter) writes:
|> In article <C0p9IJ.11B@cs.uiuc.edu>, tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:

|> |> I would guess that it's much more likely to rust once the paint
|> |> comes off.

|> BTW, I doubt that LX stuff is made of steel (please
|> correct me if I am wrong) so what you get underneath when the paint chips 
|> off is unpolished alloy (ie doesn't rust).

Most of that paint is covering aluminium alloy.  However unanodised aluminium
will corrode (iron rusts, everything else corrodes) especially in the presence
of salt water (i.e. winter road riding).

David.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: johnb@chaos.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (John Brown)
Subject: Re: Advice on Light Parts
Keywords: light Parts
Organization: gordian.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:56:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.184958.5989@odin.corp.sgi.com>, jimt@titan.sanramon.sgi.com (James M Thompson) writes:
|> and if anyone has any comments on  how to better lighten my MTB I'd appreciate
|> it.

Check out your tires.  When I replaced my tires recently, I noticed that there
was a huge weight difference between the Panaracer Dart/Smoke pair and their
equivalent folding tires, something like 240gm (~1/2 lbs).  (The folding tires
being lighter of course!)  For the price difference between the pairs of
about $15 to $20 this is probably about the cheapest 1/2 pound you'll save.
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Which chain tool?
Date: 6 Jan 93 13:44:32 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Get the gold colored Rivoli (Hyperglide) model.  This one will work
with all chains (that I've used, anyway), not just Shimano.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: H.ZIERKE@BI-LINK.owl.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke)
Organization: Private Site in Berlin
Subject: Re: Automatic transmissions for bikes
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 13:00:00 +0100
X-Mailer: CrossPoint v2.1 R/211
X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UI bi-link.owl.de [RFC/Connect IIIb DOS v0.46]


On 02.01.93, karplus@cse.ucsc.edu writes:

 >I've ridden Sturmey-Archer 3-speeds and 5-speeds, and consider them
 >superior to derailleurs for city riding in flat country--they are low
 >maintenance devices, and allow the use of sturdy chains that don't
 >need to be replaced every 5000 miles.  (With a chainguard that keeps
 >out road grit, chains for three-speeds last an extremely long time.)
 >Unfortunately, existing hub gears don't have a wide enough range for
 >the hills I now have to ride in.

Shimano is already selling the 7Speed-hub. Sachs will sell their 7Speed
in spring. The Shimano shifts better, the Sachs will be more efficient
and give a wider range.

I would never use this stuff, but a lot of commuters like it. Coaster
brakes are silly, however - for a commuter bike it should be a drum
brake (I hope Sachs will produce a 7speed-drumbrake-combination, their
drumbrakes are good) or a Magura. I didn't trust the Magura hydraulics
at the beginning, but they are really maintenance-free, if you don't
count the pad-changing.


Ciao
Hajo

--
Hans-Joachim Zierke  ##  Tel.: +49-30 / 394 8445  ##  Fax: +49-30 / 394 8447
                         h.zierke@bi-link.owl.de
From: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Quattro components anyone?
Date: 8 Jan 93 13:44:00 GMT
Reply-To: mackinto@oasys.dt.navy.mil (David Mackintosh)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

I bought my wife a Puch Leader with Quattro a couple of years ago.
A local Sports Authority (K-Mart for jocks) was selling these as a
"special purchase" for $200 in the box.  It has a Columbus Cromor frame
and Ofmega Quattro components, Fir rims, Michelin Select tires, etc.
The retail price was $600US.  Bianchi was selling an identical bike at
the time but with green paint.

The Quattro parts are Suntour for the drivetrain and Modolo brakes.
For some reason the brake levers were very stiff.  Someone gave me another
set of higher quality Modolo brakes which I put on.  This helped quite
a bit but is still not up to Shimano levels.  The Suntour index shifting,
which I think is GPX, works well when adjusted properly.  For a $200
bike, it works great and is quite light.  Even at $400, its probably
pretty good; but at $600, no way.  If I could only get my wife to ride
(only about 150 miles in two years), I'd upgrade the bike some more.
She hates riding singles, but loves tandems.

David Mackintosh
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: arnie@col.hp.com (Arnie Berger)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Which chain tool?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:22:15 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hplsduc.col.hp.com

I have the Park chain tool and I've been happily using it for several 
years. As far as I know, it does not have any special provision for 
a Shimano Hyperglide chain. I've used it several times with my new,
Shimano equipped, mountain bike. Am I damaging the HG chain with the
PARK tool? Should I buy the HG specific tool just for that chain?

                                                           Arnie


-- 
Arnie Berger
arnie@col.hp.com
Telnet 719-590-5642
From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Phil Wood hubs
Date: 4 Jan 93 17:03:31 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <Bzrsy7.L9I@news.water.ca.gov> stevec@water.ca.gov writes:
>Steve Manifold wrote:
>
>>> I recently read somewhere that Phil Wood hubs have a feature in 
>>> which instead of using quick-releases, you can clamp the hubs to 
>>> the dropouts via a allen bolt and washer. ... This seems
>>> like a good way to save some weight (maybe 200 g).
>
>
>Bob Parker responded:
>
>>It is as you describe...threaded on the inside.  Phil's stuff 
>>is built to last so I'm not sure it saves any weight.
>
>I don't know about Phil Wood hubs, but usually hub makers do away with QR
>in order to have a solid axle which means more strength.  It also (usually)
>means more weight.

This is correct.  When I went to Phil's shop a few months back to have a
130mm axle installed in my rear hub the guy who helped me handed me one of
their bolt-on axles with the words "now if you want to see something *really*
bulletproof, feel this."  The thing weighed a ton -- more than the hollow
axle and anything but the crummiest QR you could find.

As someone else noted, Bullseyes allow you to use the same axle with either
bolts or a QR.  I have a pair of Bullseye hubs too, and after trying this
gave up and got QR levers.  Bullseyes are quite different from Phils: bolting
on a Bullseye is enough of a pain that I don't recommend them unless you
only remove your wheels to change an occasional flat.

Bullseye axles are aluminum, BTW, and the threads in this soft metal have
been damaged enough by several thousand miles of contact with a QR shaft
that I can no longer get the bolts in there without a wrench.  I wouldn't be
surprised to find that going back to bolting them on would require a new
axle (not really a problem at $12 plus maybe 2 minutes installation.)
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
RAAM in '93?		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Re: New Phil Wood Hub question
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 01:43:47 GMT

>Seriously, given the fact that I've got access to a machine shop:
>anybody got any tips on a) lubricating and b)changing bearings in
>the old non-user-servicable Phil Wood hubs?    Thanks in advance.
>

When I showed my wheel (with old Phil Wood hub) to a local bike
mechanic he mentioned that there is a tool available that will
allow you to take these hubs apart so that you can replace the
bearings.

The bearings are probably standard size cartridges available at
a local bearing house.

-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: trent@mpr.ca (Robert Trent)
Subject: Re: Flaky halogen/lead acid light
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 01:11:06 GMT



>The light is flaky in the following way:

>Sometimes, when turned on, it does not come on right away.  It springs
>to life an arbitrary number of seconds (or minutes) later, with no
>"help" (no wiggling of wires, thumping of battery, etc).  Sometimes
>it will come on dimly right before lighting up fully.  Once lit, it
>burns brightly until turned off (most of the time).

>Other times (this is happening more frequently over the last few days),
>it will come on (after a few seconds) brightly, then dim dramatically
>and stay dim for a while, then (again arbitrarily, it seems to me)
>go to full brightness after some number of minutes (up to 10 minutes),
>and continue burning bright.


After a couple years of regular use, my bike's light system began to 
demonstrate the same symptoms that you've described.  I was sure that 
it was a broken wire or corroded switch/connector and went crazy trying 
to find the problem.

It turned out, however, that it was the gel cell (gel lead-acid) that 
was damaged.  IMHO, it makes sense to me that the battery's internals 
were gradually vibrated to destruction during my bike rides.  (Just 
picture what jello with metal plates in it would look like after being 
violently shaken.)

A new battery fixed my problem.  By the way, I don't buy batteries
directly from the bike shop, anymore.  You can get better value for 
your money by going directly to an electronics distributer.  I bought
a Yuasa 6 volt, 7.0 Amp*hour cell (model NP7-6), enough to power two 
6-watt bulbs for over 3 hours, for $20 (Canadian).
From: chandler@wc.novell.com (Mark Chandler)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:38:33 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc. - Walnut Creek

In article <1993Jan8.234735.24473@sol.UVic.CA> cfraser@sol.UVic.CA (Golden Girls) writes:

>This is only slightly related to the current thread, well it is actually
>kind of close.....anyhow.
>I am gonna take a big risk and say something nasty about XTR. Forgive
>my ignorance but I don't know if this has been discussed already this
>year. 
>
>XTR works very nicely, no doubt. 8 speed, smooth as silk brakes and
>a whole lot of really small touches that really set the group apart
>from anything else I have seen. BUT it costs almost twice as much
>as an XT group. Now, I ask you, has anybody out there had an XTR
>group last as long as 2 XT groups, a group that works 90% as well
>as XTR and is more than adequate for anybody but a very very very
>serious rider (ie PRO). How can somebody justify $200CDN for a
>headset when it is one of the most "disposable" parts on the bike?
>The rear deraileur is a work of art, but $150CDN for something
>that is so commonly broken?? I used to think that there was a limit
>on what people would spend on "disposable" components. Obviously
>XTR has proved me wrong. But then it is your money and this is just
>my $0.02CDN worth.

Of course, you do know that XTR stands for "eXpensive To Replace."

>Chris Fraser							RAVE ON!
o
--
Mark Chandler              Novell, Inc.         510/975-4522
chandler@wc.novell.com     Walnut Creek, CA     AOL: Crosswords
===============================================================
   The opinions expressed above are mine, not my employer's.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:49:04 GMT

newman@otto.ycc.yale.edu (Andrew Newman) writes:
>I'm wondering the same thing.  Presumably the cost of painting the
>alloy is cheaper than polishing it.  How put off would people be if the
>LX component line were both unpolished AND unpainted?  It seems
>apparent that the new LX line offers awfully good value for the dollar
>(yen?)  I can only presume that for the same price, a polished crank
>would have to be of cheaper alloy of use less careful manufacturing
>techniques.  They saved money where apporpriate.

I don't think so.  I'm buying a Bridgestone MB-3 with Deore DX and Dia-Compe
986 brakes for $800.  The Bianchi Pergerine 93 has Deore LX painted
components and also sells for $800.  I don't see how you can conclude that
the LX compoents are good value for the dollar.  If they were cheaper maybe but they're generally selling for the same price as DX!  What is the signifcant 
improvement to justify this?  
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Re: Frame alignment check
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 16:02:17 GMT

>
>It seems that a rear wheel not perfectly centered in the dropouts will 
>also result in the wheel wandering out of the path of the front wheel, 
>regardless of frame alignment.  Or am I missing something?
>-- 

No.  You can get some of the same ill effects provided by a poorly
aligned frame from a poorly installed rear wheel.  Though proper rear
wheel installation is easier to check.

-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: lloyd@leland.Stanford.EDU (William Koenig Lloyd)
Subject: Re: wide-range gearing
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 02:11:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.230907.24803@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel) writes:
>karplus@cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus) writes:
>>[SunTour microdrive has a wide gearing range, more than 5:1.
>> Who is expected to buy this setup?]
>
>Mountain bike racers.
>
>>[The low gear seems too low.]
>
>About a decade ago, _Bike Tech_ had an article by David Gordon Wilson
>in which he analyzed power curves for humans walking hills and cyclists
>riding up hills.  His conclusion was cycling up a hill was often more
>efficient than walking the bike up the hill, but you needed a low (15")
>gear to be able to do it.
>
>I don't know how this paper analysis works always in practice, but
>mountain bike racers do routinely use very low gears on steep climbs.
>That indicates that the low gears are, in fact, useful.
>

Hmmm... I know that in many of the races I'm in there are often some 
really steep hills that are "rideable" but too steep to avoid going 
anaerobic on (which for me is around 186 bpm).  If I do try to ride the
hill, when I am forced to get off the bike when my heart rate goes past
192 or so (and I wanna just flop into the dirt), I am forced to stop and
rest for 10 seconds or so before I can portage my bike up the hill.

Maybe my gearing isn't low enough (26x28), but it seems that once the 
speeds drop below about 3.5 mph, it's easier and faster to get off and
walk/run up the hill before I blow up.  If the speeds are low, I nearly
always end up passing people who are still riding.  It seems like some
energy is wasted just keeping the bike under control (and both wheels
tracking on the ground) at these low speeds.

Of course I haven't done a study, I'm just going on my racing experiences.

Bill
From: cannon@virus.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Kurt Cannon)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: New Onza Cranks
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:46:45 GMT
Distribution: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: Institute of Research for Virus

Not that I will ever have the money to buy a set of the new Onza cast
titanium cranks anytime in the near future, but I wonder if the Physics
masters would mind comparing the strengths/weaknesses of this girder
design with tubular cranks and comenting on the future of cast titan.
Thanks, Kurt Cannon
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Rohloff chains
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:14:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.tech
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <4tO1k00DhQ0prv4@bi-l003.bi-link.owl.de>,
H.ZIERKE@BI-LINK.owl.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke) wrote:

[I'm summarizing the excellent info Hajo posted]

> ...the Rohloff seems to work well with every bicycle sprocket on this earth.
>
> I'm sure the Rohloff lasts longer than the Sedisport, but I didn't log my
> kilometers in the last years. I'm sure it does not last longer than two
> Sedisports, however...
> 
> ...Without doubt, the Rohloff is the best-shifting-chain...On the bike of a
> friend with 21speed-Campy I changed a Sedisport for a Rohloff, and she named
> it a "wonder chain".
> 
> If you are like me (I learned to shift with cheap Huret or Simplex 
> derailleurs in the seventies, and I am not able to shift under load),
> you don't need it. (I also can't spot a lot of difference with
> Hyperglide, I know from others it's there). On Sachs ARIS sprockets 
> or Shimano UG, a Sedis ATB is good enough for me. This is 22 DM, and a 
> Rohloff is 55.         
> And my commuter bike still shifts with a black Sedisport. 
> 
> There is one exception: Shimano STI... I use 8speed-Uniglide with Shimano 
> Dura-ace STI.  With any other chain, this setup does not work reliably, 
> because there is not enough overshift in the STI levers. With a Rohloff, it 
> works (for me). And in the long run, Rohloff plus Uniglide is cheaper than 
> Shimano plus Hyperglide.
> 
> One warning: Some people use lubricants that are able to take away rust.
> Using this kind of lubricant is a guarantee to enjoy the advantages of
> a _new_ Rohloff chain rather early.  ;-)

This is just the kind of information I was hoping to see.  Well, I'm using
Sedis ATB chains with ARIS sprockets, and they shift beautifully, as long
as I don't allow elongation to become significant.  They last me somewhere
between 2000 and 4000 miles (I am a bad person who sometimes cleans the
chain on the bike, but I'm also a good person who never lubes it until it
is necessary, and then with only the minimum amount of lubricant).

Clearly, I have no actual *need* for the Rohloff chain, but this discussion
has piqued my curiosity enough that maybe my next chain will be a Rohloff
and I'll find out first-hand how well it works for me.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk (Aurelio Barranco)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Reply-To: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 15:46:00 +0000



I've had a rapid fire shifter go on my Altus equiped bike, it was a
real pain and made me wish I had thumb shifters :)
When they go wrong there does not appear to be much you can do,
especially if your out on the road in the middle of nowhere.

Aurelio
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk (Aurelio Barranco)
Subject: Re: MBA LX review.
Reply-To: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 15:46:00 +0000


> My major complaint about LX is not Rapidfire.  It is that a group
> that is on $800+ bikes has painted components.  I think this is
> an unfortuante trend in the industry.  However it does leave an
> opening for Suntour who has the brains to come out with a new cheaper
> group (Expert) that is chromed.

I've seen a bike over here equiped with a set of non-painted LX
componentry .... looked very nice indeed, and hence must be
available.


Aurelio
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:15:18 EST
From: Chad Burkins <CTB103@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Plastic Ring on rear Wheel

OPTIONS: NOACK    LOG    SHORT     NOTEBOOK ALL
XOPTIONS: REPLYING to NETNEWS article


  I believe that plastic ring keeps a misadjusted derailler from
shifting the chain over into the spokes and perhaps ruining a wheel.
Probably doesn't happen to often, but the weight savings by removing
it seems pretty minimal.
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Chad Thomas Burkins            \   "All we are saying, is       |
|   ctb103@psuvm.psu.edu           \     give peace a chance."     |
|    burkins@crayola.cs.psu.edu     \                              |
|     University Park, PA 16802      \          -John Lennon       |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: John  King Smith <jkingsmi@mstr.amc.edu.au>
Subject: Re: measuring chain wear?
X-Xxdate: Tue, 12 Jan 93 15:50:44 GMT
Organization: Australian Maritime College
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 21:51:41 GMT

In article <12477@cayman.COM> Paul Fox, pgf@cayman.com writes:
>okay -- the short answer seems to be that when 12 links grow to
12-1/16 inches, 
>it's time to
>replace.  when they grow to 12-1/8 inches, you're probably wearing
out your 
>cogs, if they're the sort that are susceptible to wear...

What type of cogs/chainwheels are the best wearing?
I am close to replacing chainrings (48/38/28) so would appreciate
any suggestions.

Thanks,    John.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech