From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:15:56 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <D2150025.phghrd@spumco.cts.com>, dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven) writes:
> In article <6104.2acc30e6@hayes.com>, bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
>> In article <D2150025.o5ttag@spumco.cts.com>, dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven) writes:
>> What the heck is OSA? 
> Open Scripting Architecture

Ah, I'd forgotten.

>> > And it's useless as a command-line shell. 
>> 
>> AppleScript was NEVER INTENDED as a command-line shell. If you are so
>> backward to be locked into the tradional computing interface of the 70's,
>> buy MPW. It has command lines. Happy?
> 
> MPW's file management is inadequate.  

(Hold that thought) 

> And as I've stated before, there are just
> some things that a CLI shell is better at.  

You and others have stated it before, but it has never been adequately shown
to be true. There's nothing a CLI can do that can't be done with a different
kind of user interface. For visual interfaces, I believe they can beat a CLI
every time. I've repeated this as well.


> An ideal system has both CLI and GUI shells available as part of the 
> standard OS package. 

Go back to the thought that I just told you to hold.

Now, if Apple shipped an MPW command line with the OS, you'd be happy 
according to this statement. Except that the MPW "file management" is
inadequate from the previous statement.

WHAT THE HECK DO YOU WANT? You say you want a CLI. Give you a CLI, and you're
not happy with it. Build the same CLI into the OS, and suddenly you're happy?
Not? 

Besides, file management is better done with a visual user interface, where 
you can see what you are doing.

> Try stuffing a document in the background and using a term program. 

I do this. Except I use Compact Pro. It works.

> Cooperative mutitasking causes the user to have to learn what tasks he
> can't run concurrently. 

Or for developers to create applications that run cooperatively.

> Apple's paradigm is to insulate the user from the
> rigors of the hardware and OS, so that is in my opinion a violation of
> that paradigm.

Agreed. I could hold up application memory sizes as an even more glaring
example.

> Have YOU ever used an Amiga? 

Yup. I actually played quite a bit with an Amiga 1000. 

> I'm not bringing that machine up to advocate
> it over the Mac, but preemptive multitasking makes a big difference in
> what the user can accomplish in a given period of time.  

Baloney. I have a tiny little OS9 system at home. Runs preemptive tasking.
Big deal. I'd rather use my Mac any day. Indeed, my tiny little homebrew
system is sitting on a shelf.

Preemption isn't a panacea. User's couldn't care less what kind of 
technology is built into the OS. Preemptive or not, if it can run the 
applications I want to run, and I can get stuff done, I don't care. There's
no huge productivity gain because the OS is preemptive. Period.

> The Amiga's multitasking is infinitely better than the mac.  

Infinitely is an awful lot. Having an significantly better minor feature 
isn't helping the Amiga that much.

Note that OS/2 has the same characteristic, yet people aren't flocking to
it. 

Face it. Preemptive tasking doesn't make that much of a difference to the
user. There's little or no perceptable benefit.

> You can pull down menus and background apps continue to process.  
> If you hold the mouse button on a gadget or button, it doesn't freeze 
> the whole system.

While true, you typically don't hold either for very long. It tends to make
your mouse button finger cramp.

> I think before you belabor the point of the Mac's OS not needing preemption
> you sit down and work with an Amiga for a few hours.

Why bother? You might as well suggest I go work on OS/2 as well.
Why don't you sit down and use a Mac for a while?

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
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Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.