From: davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis)
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:14:32 GMT

durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:

>	I'll admit, I'm really having trouble understanding why some people
>feel the Storyteller system is so limited and stereotypical.  The clans were
>meant to be guides, not absolutes.

The stereotyping goes beyond the clans.  It's in clans, "alignment" (I forget
the word they use for it) and humanity.  And, in the overall world outlook.
You can create your own mechanics, I suppose, GURPS helps you with that a lot
more than Storyteller.  Besides, creating more clans is simply creating more
stereotypes.  Not very useful, in itself, is it?

The powers are horribly unbalanced.  Celerity is hand over fist better than
"toughness" (I forget the word again.)  How can you create new powers?  What
do you compare them to?  Storyteller is not fit for creation of new powers,
since the mechanics it has are not meshing well to begin with.

>	Also, the Catiff class isn't that bad.  You don't get the Clan
>disicplines at a cheaper price, but you don't have the clan flaws, either. 
>Also, the higher price for non-clan disciplines isn't there.  Be whatever
>you want, be creative with his/her background, create a chronicle around
>finding the sire who abandoned you, ect. ect.  Use your imagination and
>don't rely on a rulebook or aprinted module to tell you what to do!

A catiff still suffers the silly prejudice from other vampires.  Why not
just remove all the other clans and have everyone run Catiffs (now simply
known as Vampires) and be done with this part of the stereotyping?

>The Storyteller system can be expanded to whatever you want it to be--just use
>your mind and not your calculator to do it.

Christine, you just don't seem to understand.  You can do that in any system.
But, other games also come with a good system behind them.  I find your points
about roleplaying true, yet irrelevant.  I consider the same things you are 
speaking of *every* time I play Hero.  Systems, in themselves, contribute very
little to roleplaying directly.  Looks at what Storyteller contributes: a clan
system that would be best ignored, an 'alignment' system that would be best
ignored, and a humanity system that makes no sense.  GURPS, on the other hand,
comes with a mental disadvantage system that covers most of the roleplaying
aspects that you'd want to handle in the mechanics.  I'd say GURPS contributed
more than Storyteller, since Storyteller is more interested in pigeonholing.

Now, if we allow ourselves to modify Storyteller to alleviate it's flaws, as
you suggest, why can't we modify GURPS in a similar manner?  I feel as though
your arguement against GURPS is a double standard.  So, if we can modify GURPS
too, how about not keeping track of points?  There, now the systems are a bit
more on par.  Only GURPS still has better mechanics underlying the system.
Allowing Storyteller flexibility and not allowing GURPS the same is simply a
double standard.

And, what is the bottom line behind SJG doing Vampire?  Well, you'll see some
new products on the shelf, which you don't have to buy.  Even better, White
Wolf will still support Storyteller.  And, even if it didn't, you still have
your books already.  It wouldn't matter if White Wolf collapsed tomorrow, would
it?  Even if it did, SJG would not come to your door demanding your White Wolf
books.  They are yours, and the ideas held within are yours forever.

Not that you even need any particular gaming supplement in particular, since
roleplaying and gameworld vision comes from within anyway.  For me, all I need
in a RPG is a system of mechanics to help me out with moderation.  What I am
saying is that your own gaming is your own vision.  Rules really don't change
it that much.  They do serve as examples for new gamers, but to the experienced
gamer with his basic ideas in place, it really doesn't matter.  The system is
a *tool*: if it's not helping you as much as you want - pick another tool.  I
prefer Hero over Storyteller, so Hero is the tool I use.

If you like Storyteller, use it.  I won't fault you for that.  But, I find no
basis to say it's a better roleplaying system than GURPS. Since roleplaying
comes from within, very little of a system effects it.  Storyteller does not
seem to encourage roleplaying.  Rather, it inhibits roleplaying with useless
stereotyping.  Therefore, I find your assertation that Storyteller is a
'better RPG' than GURPS unfounded.

-james