From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:00:22 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <db!nat-.friday@netcom.com> <64300@cup.portal.com>
  <=t#nn2g.friday@netcom.com>

9208.20 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Carol writes:

[much material deleted, thank you for your concise response]

old Tagi:

I think that you will find that magick and language are deeply
intertwined and that many of the folk in this newsgroup (and in
others, perhaps) are conversant with some of the 'skills' which
you seem to value highly.  Just because we do not use the same
terms to refer to this skill-set doesn't mean that we are unfamiliar
with it.  If you were to provide examples of these skills, then we
might be able to more completely understand your claims and NLP's
value to human communications.


Carol:

..."you will find" presupposed that I don't already know the link between
magick and language; isn't it evident why I started this thread?  Because
I use the skills I've learned in NLP in my shamanic/magickal work, I
said so.


Response:

I'm sorry I came off this way.  My understanding is that you are somewhat
unfamiliar with this newsgroup and VERY unfamiliar with some aspects of
Magick.  I based this on your words and my evaluation of what you said.

You've said you used NLP and have failed to describe or demonstrate how
you use these skills, in your shamanic/magical work or otherwise, until
your response to me.  Perhaps I missed something.  My intent is not to
do anything but challenge some of your claims.  As you make clear below,
you are not interest in such challenges, and so I will not continue to
engage you in that way.  


Carol:

Secondly, I never suggested that NLP was the only way, or preferred
way to conduct interpersonal communications; I've said I found NLP a
valuable tool and a place to learn what I needed to know.


Response:

Right, and since you say you use it in the context of magick/shamanism,
I'd like to know how.  Can you give some examples?  I'd like to hear
about your shamanic path and I think others would also be interested.
If you could use your description as a context to describe some NLP
skills at the same time, all the better!


Carol:

Thirdly, artful use of language is a two-edged sword.  I find that about
half the stuff in this newsgroup I've learned to skip by without reading
because (all the previous examples by those parties on those topics) have
been artful use of language to play ego games that don't interest me.


Response:

I agree with you.  My challenges are not what I call 'ego games' but
serious challenges to claims which may or may not have substance.  You
have made clear what you are comfortable with and I aim to tone myself
down so that you can come through more clearly.


Carol:

Finally, I make no "claims" regarding "NLP's value" beyond my personal
experience that I found it valuable and other might find it valuable, too.
If you expect me to convince you of the intrinsic value of NLP, you got
the wrong lady here; I'm not interested in convincing you, merely pre-
senting an idea some readers of this newsgroup may (or may not) elect
to follow up on their own.


Response:

No, I don't expect you to do anything.  Nor do I think that your assertions
about NLP necessarily extend beyond your personal experience.  My questions
regarded additional focus, and I would still like to see a more expansive
elaboration on exactly what you're discussing.  You mentioned many items
already (body language/cues, eye movements, etc.), and I thank you for that.

What I'd like to do is get past the adversarial and defensive tones and
come down to some serious exchange of information (OPINIONS ARE FINE).


Carol:

There is a difference between exchanging information for the purposes of
learning, and engaging in challenging debates.  I'm interested (in this
forum) in the former; I have no interest in engaging in a battle of
wits (with or without NLP); that is for others to enjoy.


Response:

I disagree with this to the extent that 'engaging in challenging debates'
can be equated wholly with 'engaging in a battle of wits'.  There are
no rules here.  If you are challenged on the assertions you make (whether
remarking on NLP as an organization/product or as a personal skill-set),
then you can ignore these challenges.  However, without addressing the
serious concerns raised regarding what you are saying, you may give the
impression that you are interested only in a monolithic promotion of
your own views.  Questions are healthy.  They don't always indicate that
the person who asks them is trying to score points in some social ego-
game.  If the question is misplaced, please, simply say so and let's
get on with the discussion.  Of course if you explain WHY the question
is misplaced (which you've done rather well so far, I think), then it
will allow us to follow you more closely. ;>

I guess I'm trying to express my feeling that questions are important,
and that questioning AUTHORITY (whether personal OR organizational) is
important too.  I hope you agree with this, yet I understand that you
are under no obligation to respond to questions which you feel are 
unworthy of your time.  

I have tried to be very respectful of you during this thread and in
other areas (personal and private).  I hope that you see this and
will look past any expressions I may have which do not represent your
views adequately.  Like others, I am capable of overlooking both ideas
and words which might appear differently than I understand in the context
of this bulletin board. 

This is a long-winded way of saying:  Please lighten up, *I'M* not
attacking you.  I want to hear what you have to say, yet I find that
you keep interpreting my words as demands and my questions as attacks.
Sure, I'm under some misconceptions, but I think you may be a wee bit
defensive (perhaps not unreasonably).  Cheers.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Frater (I) Nigris (666) 
 
Newsgroups: alt.magick