From: helie@bach.udel.edu (Ray Helie)
Subject: Re: Credibility...
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:22:28 GMT

Ok, this is getting too interesting to keep out of.  8-)  Seems like a 
lot of misunderstandings are flying all over the place (the biggest of
which could be mine!  Onwards!)  

Obviously, phantasm is happy being single.  That is great, and that
is very possible.  I disagree that it is not possible to be happy 
while being single.  (However, before you argue, make sure you
have read the entire article, /please/!  8-)  

ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
]  :
]  Being honest enough to *admit* you
]  don't enjoy being single, and believing there are obstacles to
]  overcoming it, ...

Ed believes that it is /not/ possible to enjoy being single.

danb@zx.qsp.UUCP (Daniel Benbenisty) writes:
]  All I have to is find one person who is happier doing something else
]  than being in a relationship (evidenced by being forced to choose
]  in favor of the 'something else'), to contract your ...

And Dan believes not just that it is possible to be happy while
being single, but that it is /possible/ to be /happier/ being
single than being in a relationship /of your choice/.  The reason
I say "of your choice" is because I think it is possible for 
just about everyone to imagine a relationship they could have
where they would be happier being single, as opposed to being
in that /particular/ relationship.  (Abusive relationship, etc.)
(For those that don't need to imagine it, I'm sorry .... 8-(

Time for a little net.logic (and possibly some net.humor  8-).  I
think everyone can agree that it is possible for just about
everyone to find an activity to get involved with that can make
them happy.  So, while you are single, if you get into this
activity a great deal (or several activities), you can obviously
find some happiness.  So yes, you /can/ be happy while being single.

So yes, Dan, I agree with you, it is possible to be happy while
being single.  Ed, it would seem that I disagree with you, but
I think you might have meant something else (or at least in
a different way).  Read on! ...

Now, the actual question (I /think/) is: Is it possible to
be even happier (while you are single) than you are by being in /any/ 
relationship?  Refrasing it in Dan's terms:  Is it possible that you 
have now become so happy that you are happier than if you did 
get into any relationship?  Do we agree on the proper question 
that we're trying to answer?  I will have to assume that we do.  
Well, let's try to answer that question.  (Work /with/ me!  I'm 
having some fun here!!  8-)

There is one point that I have to make here: What exactly is it
that you, without a doubt, cannot /experience/ (I didn't say enjoy)
if you are not in a serious relationship?  I think it can be 
generally agreed upon that you cannot experience the level of deep 
love that a relationship offers.  No matter how much you think 
you love a friend, your level of love would be even higher if you 
were in a relationship (where appropriate!) with that person, sharing 
most everything about you with them (and that person sharing with 
you), spending time together, etc.  When you participate in that 
kind of sharing, it touches a part of you that, I believe, cannot be 
touched upon in /any/ other way, and this deep love can then also
be expressed sexually between the two of you.  

So, that /level/ of physical and emotion bonding /cannot/ 
be experienced with anyone else except a person with whom you are in a 
serious relationship with.  (Keep in mind that I am talking about the most 
/ideal/ relationship /you/ could possibly have, if you /chose/ to have 
it, and it came into your life -- you cannot say you are happier being
single simply because you don't think you could find the kind of
relationship you want -- that implies that you are /not/ happy
being single).  So, all of the above implies that:

!If you are single, you cannot /experience/ the level of emotional
!and physical involvement that can only be experienced while in a
!personally ideal relationship with someone else.

So, where are we now?  Well, what this all means is that we now
have a more exact definition of the question we are trying to 
answer:  Is it possible for someone to be happier /not/ experiencing
that high a level of emotional and physical involvement?  That,
it would seem, is the real question.  So, what do you think?  Let's
see ...

If it is not a desire to experience that level of emotional and
physical involvement with someone, than yes, you can be happier 
being single.  Dan's point is proven if you can find someone who
does not desire to experience that level of emotional and physical
involvement with someone.  That could /also/ translate to:  the pain 
experienced by having to "give up" certain freedoms to be in
a relationship /outweighs/ the pleasure gotten experiencing 
that deep emotional and physical bonding.  It's a matter of the
sacrifice being worth it.

Ed, it might be that /that/ is what you meant -- that everyone would
be much, much happier experiencing this level of emotional and
sexual bonding in their life, ... rather than that no one is able 
to enjoy being single.  If that is what you actually meant, I agree 
with you wholeheartedly!  I can be perfectly happy while being single,
but there is no doubt in my mind that I am many times happier when
I am in a relationship that is right for me!  8-)

danb@zx.qsp.UUCP (Daniel Benbenisty) writes:
]  My last SO was intelligent, very attractive, and very sweet.  After
]  a year and a half of going out with her, I realized that I simply
]  could not spend the time with her that she needed in a relationship, 
]  and still have time for my work+commutes (45 hrs/wk), band (15 hrs/wk), 
]  music practice, composition, and recording (15 hrs/wk), partying with my 
]  friends (10 hrs/wk), sleep (56 hrs/wk), meals (10 hrs/wk), various
]  chores and errands (5 hrs/wk), and being alone for a bit and relaxing
]  with a book or TV (10 hrs/wk).  Some weeks, I am even busier.  That 
]  leaves only 2 hours a week for a relationship (including phone time!) 
]  - not enough.

]  :
]  There are probably millions of people 
]  like me who break out of relationships, or choose not to get in them,
]  essentially because they are unwilling to compromise their non-SO 
]  activities.

]  :
]  At this point in my life, I would like to do the above activities
]  instead of giving some of them up for a relationship.  

]  :
]  So you see, there are things that can make me even happier than
]  can a romantic relationship!  What a thought!

Dan, it seems that giving up some of these activities causes enough
pain for you to not make it worth it to get involved in a relationship.
Experiencing that high level of emotional and physical involvement is
enticing to you, I'm sure (?), but the pain of the sacrifice outweighs
it(?)

Can I paint a scenario for you (remember how I mentioned a /personally
ideal/ relationship):  Suppose you met a woman that you felt the 
same way about as your last SO that you mentioned.  Well, suppose 
/also/ that she plays an instrument (and is in a band as well, and 
could even join your band), she composes music (and does it even
better than you do), likes to party, enjoys cooking (and is willing
to show you how so you can cook together),  enjoys doing chores
together (if you wanted to, doesn't matter), has errands of
her own to run when you are running yours, likes to try reading the
books you do, likes it if you wanted to read the books that she
does (so you can talk about these books sometimes), and doesn't
mind cuddling with you when you watch TV (or working on her designs
for a better electronic guitar, if you'd rather be alone).

In this situation, I don't see you having to sacrifice much at
all to be in a relationship with /this/ woman.  /Then/ would you be
even happier single, versus being with /her/?  If not, then you
are not happier being single -- you just haven't found the
right woman yet ... 8-)  It would be easy to confuse the
two.  8-)  Not an attack, just an opinion.  

Man, this post got longer than I expected.  Well, as long as it 
was good for someone else.  It was fun for me! ...


Ray  8-)

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   Ray Helie         8-)                   University Of Delaware   
   [helie@bach.udel.edu]                   Newark, DE               
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