HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: riff@coos.dartmouth.edu (Christopher P. Riff)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cubs Protected 15?????
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:09:48 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

raistlin@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (The Joker) writes:

>Having only been a baseball fan for about 5 years now (just REALLY
>starting to get into the game), and being a Cub fan, could someone
>tell me if they know who the 15 protected players will be?  I can venture
>the following guesses.  Does anyone know more?

>Protected (I think)
>Mark Grace
>Ryne Sandberg 
>Shawon Dunston
>Doug Dacenzo
>Greg Maddux (*IF* he signs and doesn't do that  Free Agent Dance)
>Rey Sanchez  (could be a third baseman)
>Mike Harkey
>Sammy Sosa

I think that anyone with a guaranteed contract must be protected, 
although I couldn't say off-hand who this might include.  I assume
they would protect Mike Morgan as well as those you've listed (except
Dascenzo, and maybe Sanchez since they might have other prospects
they would rather protect - I don't know.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Fair weather fans. (was: Reds are catching up) 
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:36:19 GMT

In <1992Aug31.032002.26278@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu> hutto@SMTC.engr.scarolina.edu (Brent Hutto) writes:

>In article <1992Aug30.233242.8621@seq.uncwil.edu>, cosper@seq.uncwil.edu (Kit Cosper) writes:
>>
>>	As a looong time Braves fan (can you say Biff Poceroba
>>	and Bruce Sutter? ) I get a little ticked at all the
>>	Braves "fans" who have come out of the woodwork in the
>>	last year.  I have been watching them and rooting for
>>	them for the last 12 years.  Then there are people 
>>	(like my brother in law) who don't watch baseball
>>	until the World Series and manage to get ahold of
>>	tickets just so they can say they went.  I have
>>	more respect for a die hard (insert loosing team 
>>	here) fan than I do for these people who like whoever
>>	happens to be winning.

>    I can do even better than that!  I can make up a single sentence which
>    contains the names "Bruce Sutter", "Len Barker" *AND* "Jeff Reardon".

Naturally, when the Braves traded Bedrosian away, he immediately won
the Cy Young as a closer...

On the main point, I don't get ticked off by all the new-found Braves fans.
Sure, they're fickle.  Sure, they'll leave when the Braves start to lose
again.  But the eighties were mighty lonely, and I enjoy having the 
company.  I love to see huge crowds in Atlanta.  I love to say I'm a
Braves fan and not have people laugh in my face.  I love to see other
Braves hats in malls, at school, and at Giants games.  I hope it lasts
forever.

(Fair weather fans booing Tom Glavine -- that irritates me.)
--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Gigabit Study Group 

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dbloom@bnr.ca (David Bloom P025)
Subject: Cone Rationalization
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:01:07 GMT


Saberhagen for Cone

Kent, Pecota, PTBNL for Jeffries, Miller, McReynolds


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Subject: Re: Managing in the AL
Organization: Wayne State University Math Department, Detroit
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:39:25 GMT

In article <BtL38L.J7w@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.224433.2454@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.202005.15065@advtech.uswest.com> steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak) writes:
>  I really was annoyed with a "baseball writer" who said that he
>was BORED by the last few All-Star games since they were so low-
>scoring.  What CRAP!!!  The game of baseball is a grand mix of
>offense and defense!!  A three-hit shutout is as exciting to see as 
>a 14-to-nothing romp!

Agreed.  However, that three-hit shutout is even more exciting when
every batter has a legitimite chance of getting a hit.  It is not boring
to watch a 2-1 ballgame, but it is much less impressive if a pitcher
isn't facing nine real hitters.

Having that automatic out in the lineup makes the game much less
interesting to me.  Even if it did add more strategy, I don't think that I
would be for it, but it _doesn't_ add any more strategy (or at least not
much).

--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: 20-wins by August ??
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:55:22 GMT


In article <menery.714826782@de3a1066a.osd.mil> menery@de3a1066a.osd.mil  
(Ristonofer) writes:
> With Tom Glavine going for his 20th win on 25 August, I was wondering
> if anyone knows who was the last pitcher to have 20 wins before
> September started.  Additionally, what was the earliest in the season
> or calendar, for that matter, that a pitcher posted his 20th win.

I don't know the answer, but I do recall that Charles Radbourn won
59 or 60 games(depending on your source) in 1884.
Jack Chesboro won 41 in 1904, Ed walsh won 39or40(DOYS) in 1908,
and Denny McLain won 31 in 1968. He may have reached 20 in late July.
In 1971 Vida Blue was 24-8, but he was 17-3 at the All-Star break.
There's also the 27 win seasons by Carlton ('72) and Welch ('90).
Welch might have been the last to win his 20th in August.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: 4 Sep 92 19:03:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake mjw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Wolverton):

>But, just to show the rest of the world what we have to put
>up with here in the Bay Area: the Giants radio announcers (especially
>Ron "Dumber than Ray Knight" Fairly) spent the rest of the inning
>praising Leyland's shrewd move.  "A good manager will let his players
>do what they do best", they said.  "And what Jay Bell does best is
>sacrifice."

Hasn't it occurred to anyone that, if what a player does best is sacrifice,
then he has no business batting in the top half of the lineup?  Or even in
major league baseball?

"We prefer that Crusher strike out as often as possible, because that's what
he does best."

Sheesh.



-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: Don Soucy <AB47@UNB.CA>
Subject: RE: Box scores on the net?
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:32:20 GMT

In article <bacarlso.715289236@silver> bacarlso@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brad Carlson) writes:
>Are box scores posted anywhere on the net (or for that matter through
>listservers, ftp sites, commercial services (ie I have access to Dow
>Jones), etc)?  Thanks for any and all help.
>
>- Brad
>
> CLARInews has a moderated group that posts box scores:
  CLARI.SPORTS.BASEBALL.  In addition to the scores, they post
  game descriptions and baseball news.  You will also find other
  stats posted there.  I'm sure it depends how your connected, but
  I usually hear news (or at least rumours) first here on rec.sport.bb
  and only later on C.S.BB.

  Don Soucy
>.
>.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets)
Subject: The tragic fade-away: Reds going down for second time
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:27:05 GMT

I don't know exactly what to say about it, but it's true.  Despite last week's
surge in the standings, Cincinnati has found itself farther behind today than
any other time this year.  Greg Swindell is on the DL, Dibble, Charlton, Bankhead--
the guys that kept the Reds on top for the first half are now stinking up the
bullpen, Paul O'Neill can't break out of his 8-week slump, players in general 
are beginning to worry more about finishing third than finishing first, 
attendance at home games is dropping, Atlanta is getting their second wind,
Roberts is getting tired, Doran stinks, I've gotten to the point where I'm
actually GLAD to see Ruskin on the mound (UGH!), Marty is badmouthing all
the decisions being made, two home-game losses in a row, Quinn couldn't make
any last-minute deals, Piniella is making kindling wood out of lockerroom
chairs, Sabo limps around once every few days at best, Braggs won't swing at
0-2 pitches, Sanders is a menace in center field, Baseball Weekly has written them
off, they're doing that wretched "tomahawk chop" till their faces turn blue down
south, etc., etc., etc.

We'll try again next year...

RStimets
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: A question on free agency
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:11:16 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Sep1.185654.26176@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>1) If the club fails to offer arbitration, does it still receive the
>draft pick compensation?


No, thats why the Cards offered arbitration to Guerrero and ended up
getting stuck with him when nobody signed him as a freeagent. They
had to make the offer to get the draft pick, nobody signed him so
after arbitration they had to sign him.





Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"A bank is a place where they lend you an umbrella in fair weather, and ask
for it back again when it begins to rain."
                                          Robert Frost
********************************************************************************
From: sivaram@plains.NoDak.edu (Sivaram Hariharan )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Deliberate loss?
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:56:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20082
Distribution: usa
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

I do not see any good that will come to the Braves on deliberately
losing to the Pirates if at all they have some games remaining 
with them. Ofcourse, their  position is now comfortable, but
nothing is sure in baseball till u have CLINCHED ur division.

Suppose the Reds get into a hot streak in late Sept. it would
be wise for the Braves to try to play for wins rather than blow
up 5 months of good work.

S.H
Forever Twins.
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies, & Statistics (was Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:05:49 GMT
Organization: ?

In <1992Sep03.105123.10657@brtph560.bnr.ca> psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul Jezioranski) writes:

>In article <1992Sep3.013519.8911@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg
>"Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:

>> And we can keep it simple by eliminating a lot of these.
>> 
>> Leave us with PAs, SLG, OBP and I'll let you eliminate all the rest.
>> 
>> Is that simple enough for you?
>> 

>Sure. Simply idiotic. An example:

>	Rudy Fafoofnik: 680 Plate appearances, 1.000 SLG, 1.000 OBP
>	
>......	but he scored zero runs because he hit 680 two out singles and the guy
>	behind him struck out 680 times.

I'm not sure what the point of this example is.

It's just as ludicrous as the stupid stat defintion you put up before. 

Even so,  the fact that the guy after him struck out every time is not
his fault.  The guy is still Hall of Fame material, regardless of whether
he never scores or drives in a run in his career.                   

>Sure you can draw a "likely" conclusion from just those three stats, but
>you can draw a better conclusion from what the player himself did.
>Singles, doubles, triples, homers, runs scored, walks, at bats, and RBI
>give a better than "likely" conclusion of the player's value to the
>team, and you can calculate your three numbers from these stats.

Well, yes, OBP and SLG come from singles, doubles, triples, homers,
walks.  They're fine, too (I'm ignoring the other parts of OBP for
obvious reasons - apologies to Dave Hollins).

But RBI and Runs don't give you any added information of the player's
value to his team.  They only obfuscate.

 My
>contention is that adding external dependencies (such as who and how
>many were in scoring position, who was pitching, etc) only complicates
>things and leads people to draw errant conclusions like "if Jose was in
>his place, he'd have 5000 RBI". But I guess that's most of the
>attraction of all these stats. 

But that's an argument against RBIs.  The stat's central problem is that it
adds external dependencies, which complicate the stat to the point where
it isn't at all useful.

The weird thing about all your points is that you're actually arguing against
RBIs - when you argue against complexity, and against stats which have too
many external dependencies, you're simply pointing out the flaws in RBIs.

You agree with us, but you just haven't realized it yet. 

Greg 
-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Subject: Tom House (was Re: Jose Canseco to Texas...)
Originator: jimdean@bcrks81
Reply-To: jimdean@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:46:25 GMT


In article <21429@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal) writes:
> In article <55947@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
> >
> >....worse stuff, and I personally believe that House just wasn't the
> >right pitching coach for a guy like Witt.
> >Russ Smith
> 
> Who is House the right pitching coach for?  Himself maybe, but who else?
> --dave

Me.

I had the pleasure of attending a coaching seminar given by Tom House
in Toronto last February.  He gave two very good sessions, plus he
worked me through my own pitching motion.  I used to have an O.K.
slider, and it hurt my elbow when I threw it. With a couple of his
tips, I was able to throw a much better slider and no pain!  I used it
all season with no ill effects.

Tom House is very much into computers, and uses them to study and
refine a given pitcher's motion so as to make it less stressful to the
pitcher.  Of course, a lot of this depends on input from the pitcher.
A guy like Nolan Ryan knows his body inside out and backwards. Bobby
Witt, on the other hand (according to House) is a "proprioceptic (sp?)
remedial", who, if you ask him where his hand was when he threw that
pitch, can't tell you.

I can't speak for the stats. I can't speak for his 'in-game' coaching.
But as a coach of pitching mechanics, I have the utmost respect for
Mr. House, and that is based on personal experience.

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  6-0, 1.99
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-7241 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Twins scratch a win; Tigers/Twins..Game-9 8/26/92
From: <NU138915@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Date: Wednesday, 26 Aug 1992 21:36:42 CDT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

        Tigers ......... 0 ; Twins ..........  1

phew...The Twins after struggling all evening won this 9th game
with the Tigers on a Harper line-drive-homer in the bottom of
the 9th after stranding baserunners for majority of the preceding
8 exasperating innings.

Prior to this John Smiley, who picked up his 14th win(14-6)
escaped an 8th inning jam after Deer had a lead-off double.
With runners on 1st and 3rd and with only 1-out, Smiley
displayed some clutch piching and bailed out aided by some
superb fielding by Knoblauch and Bush, who coverted hits
into cathes and prevented sure runs.

With Oakland losing today to Boston, the Twins have crawled
to within half a dozen games of the "We will not slump" As.

Tomorrow, the Twins open up a 4-game series with the Yankees.
The Twins have won 6 of the 9 games played so far this season
with the Tigers.

S.H
forever Twins
From: jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Trading Deadline
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:17:15 GMT


In article <1992Aug28.132719.16186@epas.toronto.edu> binkley@epas.utoronto.ca (P. Binkley) writes:
>
>Cone cleared waivers at the beginning of August.  I seems every team
>places several players on revocable waivers then, and other teams
>think they'll never be traded so they don't bother to claim them.
>They asked Brewers GM Sal Bando about Cone; he said, "At that time
>Toronto didn't look like they needed any more pitching.  Besides, if
>you make a claim for a player, you risk the possibility that the club
>would tell you that he's yours.  In Cone's case, that would have meant
>inheriting about a third of his 1992 salary [$4.25 million US].  Our
>club already is committed to paying out more dollars than we should be
>and Baltimore just blew their wad for Cal Ripken Jr."

That may explain why the AL East contenders let Cone clear waivers,
but what about the rest of the league?  Do all the other teams in a
division race this year (Braves/Reds/Padres/Pirates/Expos/A's/Twins)
have so much pitching that they can afford to pass on Cone AND risk
him going to another team that they're contending with in their
division?

The Twins claimed Hurst when he was put on waivers (causing Hurst to
be withdrawn).  Twins GM Andy MacPhail said that he didn't try to
claim Cone because he thought the Mets would not want to let him go.

Translation:  MacPhail screwed up.

If the Twins were willing to claim Hurst, why not Cone?  Sure, Cone
will be a free agent, but even renting Cone for two months is not a
bad deal for a team in a division race.  There are only two ways to
deal for talent:  trade prospects or spend money.  And MacPhail has
said that he doesn't want to trade his top prospects, so that leaves
spending money.  Where else were the Twins going to get a quality
pitcher at that point (end of July)?

I suspect that if the Twins (or anyone else) had claimed Cone, then
he _probably_ would have been withdrawn, and he would have played
out the season in New York.  Still, what did the Twins have to lose:
David "Whiplash" West's spot in the starting rotation?  My heart
flutters at the notion of Cone pitching for the Twins since the
beginning of August.

The Twins' chances this year are rapidly spiraling down the tubes
and MacPhail has been unwilling to make any deals to help the team
(primarily the pitching staff).  It's a shame, too, because a team
just doesn't get that many chances at the play-offs.

>Peter Binkley
>binkley@epas.utoronto.ca

-Jeff    jjd@cray.com
--
"Whoever embraces the Tao
will not be traded away."
-Lao "Lefty" Tzu in _The_Tao_of_Baseball_, Chapter 54.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mard@quads.uchicago.edu (Adrian N. Marden)
Subject: Re: Sanders to stay with Braves
Keywords: SANDERS BRAVES FALCONS
Reply-To: mard@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:26:46 GMT

In article <jhopkins.133.715007805@cbacc.cba.uga.edu> jhopkins@cbacc.cba.uga.edu (John Hopkins) writes:
>
>It was announced on the news this morning that Deion Sanders has decided to 
>stay with the Braves for the remainder of the season.  He will miss 6 to 8 
>Falcon games as a result of his decision.
>
>I say to Bobby Cox, take advantage of this.  Bench Gant and platoon Sanders 
>and Smith in left field.

	You MUST be on crack. The last thing that the Braves need going into
the post-season is Ron Gant with splinters in his butt. He may be the most
talented position player the Braves have. Let him play through it.
	Incidentally, Deion (although I think he's great) will not have nearly
as much of an impact on the Braves as one would think from all of the articles,
ESPN stories, etc. about his two-sport dilemma.


-- 
*	Adrian "Nick" Marden  	    *	"The A's have Dennis Eckersley-	      *
*	mard@quads.uchicago.edu     *	he doesn't blow anyone!"	      *
*	home:(312)-684-1913	    *			-Steve Stone	      *
*	work(?):(312)-702-7269	    *					      *
From: jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Gold Glove at short (was Re: simulation games)
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:53:17 GMT


In article <1992Aug25.175229.26930@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> csquared@coos.dartmouth.edu (C Squared) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.152943.7369@trentu.ca> pyacm@trentu.ca (A Colin Morton) writes:
>>Manny Lee, the most underrated shortstop in the game?
>>
>Greg Gagne.

Underrated defensively, perhaps.  But as far as the name of this thread is
concerned, Gagne doesn't hit well enough to qualify.

The Gold Glove is awarded primarily on the player's production at the
plate (pitchers excepted).  Any similarities with a Defensive Award are
purely coincidental.

>C (Kirsched 'Cubed') Squared

-Jeff    jjd@cray.com
--
"He was a diminutive little gnome of a man.  His beady eyes darted to
and fro, and from his hunched stature one expected him to fall over
at any moment.  In short, he was the perfect shortstop."  -Victor "Spanky"
Hugo in _The_Hunchback_of_Notre_Stade_
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Re:Boggs Toronto Bound?
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:10:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.231344.6814@cs.wayne.edu> dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane) writes:
>In article <5935@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug26.193504.9420@brtph560.bnr.ca>, dbloom@bnr.ca (David Bloom P025) writes:
>>> Magadan is a younger underrated version of Wade Boggs.            
>>
>>seriously claiming that on their stats to date, Magadan is as good of a
>>hitter as Boggs?
>
>Look at the stats:
>1992 Magadan .390 OBP, .346 SLG    Boggs .352 OBP, .377 SLG
>1991 Magadan .391 OBP, .393 SLG    Boggs .421 OBP, .460 SLG
>1990 Magadan .417 OBP, .457 SLG    Boggs .386 OBP, .418 OBP
>
>It appears that they are about even this year, that Magadan was much
>better in '90 and Boggs was much better in '91.  
>
>Over the course of his career, certainly, Boggs has been the better
>player.  

Has he?  Let's compare career road stats.

Magadan (divided by 2) (1986-1991)
449 AB, 132 H, 30 DB, 3 TP, 4 HR, 52 RBI, 72 BB, 293/389/399

Boggs (adjusted to 521 PA) (1984-1991)
 [no data available for 1982-83, which, on average were below par for Boggs]
453 AB, 139 H, 22 DB, 3 TP, 5 HR, 45 RBI, 68 BB, 306/395/405

That's only 12 points of OPS -- which gets erased by Boggs's double-counting
of the extra 13 points of BA.  It's when you add Boggs's huge homefield
advantage that he leaps out over a hundred points ahead of Magadan.

>But right now, Magadan is 30, and Boggs is 34.  If I were a GM,
>I would rather sign Magadan than Boggs.

Cheaper, younger, and will probably have a better season.
-- 
             ......................................................
             ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | std disclaimers
             the university of chicago law skool, chicago, illinois
             it's log!  log!  log!  it's big, it's heavy, it's wood