HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 07:47:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.072011.16803@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>In article <B9c=j#+@engin.umich.edu> marky@engin.umich.edu (Mark Anthony Young) writes:
>>cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>>>In article <m2c=rCC@engin.umich.edu> marky@engin.umich.edu (Mark Anthony Young) writes:
>>>>I have no double standard.  Any money anyone takes from me without my
>>>>consent is money stolen from me.  Whether that money be for police to
>>>>protect weaklings, or welfare to protect incompetents is moot.  How
>>>>can you separate the two?
>>>
>>>i can't. and i don't have any problem with your position.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>But "I" don't want to pay for your justice system.  I don't think it's
>>necessary.  You say that you have no problem with my position.  "My"
>>position is that all taxation is theft.
>
>i didn't say i had no problem with your position, if i recall. i said
>i was willing to listen to your ideas. if i implied otherwise i apologize.

my apologies -- i did indeed say in an earlier post that i had
no problem with your position. that was in error.
(why i didn't see my quote in the same post is beyond me -- must be the hour).
i confused not having a problem with not wanting to pay for that which you
did not need, with having a problem with the definition of what is a
fundamental right and what is not.

sorry for the confusion.

--
charles
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: dmccrea6@mach1.wlu.ca (doug mccready F)
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:14:52 GMT

Gerald responds to my earlier post about property rights about extremists on
both ends. Can you tell me what you mean by extremists? What possible reason
can anyone not want property rights built into the Constitution? I have
never understood Bob RAe and his ilk on this.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: 500 New Jobs Per Day
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:13:53 GMT

In article <ll50muINNqs4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> alan@ikkyu.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>   When Canada recovered from the 1981-82 recession, the federal
>   deficit was more than 8% of GDP, making an increase in the
>   debt-to-GDP ratio inevitable, and hence higher taxes inevitable.  In
>   the new recovery, the federal deficit is only 5% of GDP, and all
>   forecasters expect the debt-to-GDP ratio to fall, so higher taxes
>   are not inevitable at the federal level.  The provinces collectively
>   are in a better debt position today than the federal government was
>   at the end of the 1981-82 recession, so the provincial debt-to-GDP
>   ratio should be falling within a few years too.
>
>In the US, the deficit is $290 B (1991), the GDP about $5000 B, and the
>debt about $4000 B.  Thus the deficit-to-GDP is about 6 % and the
>debt-to-GDP is about 80 %.  If US government obligations such as Social
>Security are included the indebtedness is about $7000 B, or about 140 %
>of GDP.
>
>What is the debt to GDP ratio in Canada?
>

I think you've slightly overestimately the US debt to GDP ratio...isn't
the US GDP closer to $6000 billion.  The debt to GDP ratio for Canada I
thought was around 80%, and next to Italy was the largest in the G7.

Unfortunately, I don't have the exact numbers in hand, and the ones
I do have at home are probably a year out of date...probably the 1991
numbers.

I think the correct US number is more like 65%...right now the
Canadian federal government probably has slightly better control
of its overall debt, than the US federal government...the problem
in Canada is that the debt of our provinces is spiralling out
of control.

Gerald
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<BzHG6H.Axr@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
	<1992Dec24.180123.18424@informix.com> <28DEC92.16524640@vax.clarku.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:07:20 GMT


In article <28DEC92.16524640@vax.clarku.edu> hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>In a previous article, proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) wrote:
>>This argument ("I am against abortion because had my parents chosen it,
>>I wouldn't be alive at all") would seem to apply equally well to
>>contraception. 
>
>And abstinence.  After all, if my birth parents had chosen abstinence, I 
>wouldn't be alive at all.


And murder.  After all, if your parents had chosen to murder you, you
wouldn't be alive at all.


Todd
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 03:39:04 GMT

In article <C0I4nB.Ewn@teleride.on.ca> stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb) writes:
>In article <m2c=rCC@engin.umich.edu> marky@engin.umich.edu (Mark Anthony Young) writes:
>>Fire protection is easily provided by the free market system.  You
>>simply enroll in one of the Fire Protection companies that operate
>>in your area.  If your house catches fire, they'll come and put it
>>out.  If you pay for deluxe service, they'll come when your neighbour's
>>place catches fire and keep it from spreading to your place.  For
>>people who don't want to get fire protection, there'll be freelancers
>>around most places -- people who'll bring the trucks to your fire and
>>dicker with you over the price to put it out.
>
>Okay, this is where the free-market society begins to break down.  Who will
>build the roads the fire rotection company uses to reach your location?
>Who lays the high-pressure water mains and hydrants so the firefighters can do
>their job?  Naturally, the street-laying consortium (which you must pay if
>you want to live on a street) and the hydrant corporation (which must have some
>pretty good relationship with the street consortium to be able to tear up the
>streets to install and maintain its water mains).
>

Note: Mark is being a devil's advocate...I take it you've stumbled into
this discussion in the middle, and what you have stumbled upon is 
an argument about the nature of the right to property, which, for the
purposes of this discussion is accepted as a given by both sides.

Since our society, at large, really does not accept the right to
property as legitimate individual right, the argument might seem
slightly unreal, since the typical debate is clouded by statism
or socialism, which reject that the right to property even exists
at all...so you can't use existing society, which is essentially
statist, as a reference...the debate assumes a much more purely
capitalist society as a given or as easily achievable or established.

Gerald
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: dowlatir@cu1.crl.aecl.ca.crl.aecl.ca (Ramin Dowlati)
Subject: people pissed off of the tax system
Organization: AECL Research
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:38:57 GMT

I'd like to suggest that a new group be setup:
	soc.culture.taxation
This will help aleviate all the 'tax wars' going on in this group.

-Arrivederci to you too!
-Ramin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb)
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
Organization: Teleride Sage Ltd.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:24:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.171703.10090@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>
>well, i place the right to freedom above the right to vote, because
>a democratic system which does not guarantee freedom is *nothing*.
>you want to live in a world based on inconsistent rights? fine. i give up.
>you're free to have your opinion.
>how about this: the USSR had regular elections. coerced, of course.
>but then you are willing to tolerate coercion of a different form to
>guarantee *your* version of "democracy".

Freedom (although so far that term remains undefined) is a right.  Voting is
a priviledge.  Rights and priviledge do not go hand-in-hand.  A slave might
have no right but might have the priviledge of serving her master.

>In article <1993Jan6.082402.2194@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>>Which makes that right of EVERY individual to a vote free of physical
>>and mental duress an awfully important right.
>
>nope. they do have that right. as long as they don't shirk their
>basic responsibility to care for themselves, a duty *every*
>creature on this planet owes to itself, and which only socialists
>disagree with.

You would be very, very hard-pressed to find a socialist who disagrees
that it is the responsibility of every capable individual to care for
his or her self.  A socialist would argue that there exist those who
are incapable of taking care of themselves, and therefore it falls to
those who are capable to take care of the incapable.  A socialist would
argue that it is the responsibility of those who are capable to take care
of the incapable because it is the right of everyone to be cared for.

>what would happen if every person in Canada decided tomorrow that they
>no longer would work because it was their right, in a "democratic"
>society, to force the government to provide them with food and shelter
>to guarantee their "right to vote", as you suggest? your idea is a 
>perversion of the concept of individualism. and you have *never* been
>able to show otherwise.

Voting is a priviledge, not a right.  Working is a necessesity under the
current ecocultural conditions.  That makes working a responsibility.

-- 
------- Stephen M. Webb -------

Ack!  I've accidentally broken my leg!  -- Ed the Happy Clown

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross)
Subject: Re: Unique, eh?
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Brock University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:40:08 GMT

godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de (Laurence "I was fired from NRC" Godfrey) writes:
: In article <1993Jan9.020927.5639@philmtl.philips.ca>, ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
: > This newsgroup is really quite unique.  I can think of no other that I read
: > regularly where I could expect to see all 22 new articles on the same
: > thread and by such a small number of people, as I saw today.  Although this
: > is an extreme example, soc.culture.canada always has a remarkably small
: > number of subject lines for the volume of postings.  How boring.
: 
: Does that surprise you for a group which concerns itself with Canadians?
: 
: Laurence

Hey Larry! Tell us about yourself!
Canada is boring; Larry Godfrey is interesting!


-- 
Brian Ross                          
bross@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca            
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: hsims@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 6 JAN 93 13:51:28 GMT

In a previous article, todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law) wrote:
>In article <28DEC92.16524640@vax.clarku.edu> hsims@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>In a previous article, proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) wrote:

>>>This argument ("I am against abortion because had my parents chosen it,
>>>I wouldn't be alive at all") would seem to apply equally well to
>>>contraception. 
>>
>>And abstinence.  After all, if my birth parents had chosen abstinence, I 
>>wouldn't be alive at all.
> 
>And murder.  After all, if your parents had chosen to murder you, you
>wouldn't be alive at all.

Are you suggesting that abstinence and contraceptive use should be treated in 
the same way we treat murder?

				.... Heather.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: ederveen@athena.research.ptt.nl (Ederveen D.)
Subject: Free Esperanto Course (regula posxtajxo / periodic posting)
Summary: introductory Esperanto correspondence course by e-mail
Keywords: esperanto, e-mail course
Reply-To: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research, The Netherlands
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:55:01 GMT

Periodic posting about the                              Regula posxtajxo pri la
                             FREE ESPERANTO COURSE

What ?                                  Kio ?
An online Esperanto course, available   Reta Esperanto-kurso, havebla en ambaux
in both English and French. Based on    la angla kaj la franca lingvoj. Gxi
the popular Free Postal Course of the   bazigxas sur la populara Free Postal
Esperanto League for North America. We  Course de la Esperanto-Ligo de Norda
hope to add courses in other languages  Ameriko. Ni esperas aldoni kursojn en
in the future.                          aliaj lingvoj estonte.

How much ?                              Kiom ?
Free! 10 lessons.                       Senpaga! 10 lecionojn.

How ?                                   Kiel ?
Tutors in netland will help you,        Instruantoj en retlando helpos vin,
correct your exercises, and send you    korektos viajn ekzercojn, kaj sendos al
subsequent lessons.                     vi sekvajn lecionojn.

Why ?                                   Kial ?
To learn Esperanto, of course!          Por lerni Esperanton, kompreneble!

Who ?                                   Kiu ?
For you!                                Por vi!

Where ?                                 Kie ?
Send e-mail to me (address: see below)  Sendu e-posxton al mi (adreso: vd.
and I will send you the first lesson,   sube) kaj mi sendos al vi la unuan
together with the network address of    lecionon, kune kun la retadreso de via
your personal tutor. Please indicate    propra instruanto. Bonvolu indiki la
English or French.                      anglan aux la francan.

When ?                                  Kiam ?
Now, if you like.                       Nun, se vi volas.

How Good ?                              Kia ?
From the very first lesson you will be  Ekde la unua leciono, vi povos skribi
able to write in Esperanto, and upon    en Esperanto, kaj fininte la kurson, vi
completion, you will be able to         povos kompreni preskaux cxiun
understand almost every Esperanto-text  Esperanto-tekston, (helpe de vortaro),
(with the help of a dictionary), and to kaj skribi simplajn tekstojn.
write simple texts.

I await your e-mail!                    Mi atendas vian posxtajxon!

greetings / salutojn,
Derk Ederveen                        internet: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
                                               earn:  ederveen@hlsdnl5.bitnet
(don't use automatic reply on this message)    uucp: ..!hp4nl!dnlunx!ederveen
(ne uzu auxtomatan respondon al cxi-mesagxo)   decnet:        dnlts::ederveen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: drukier@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk (Gordon Drukier)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: canadian subway
Date: 11 Jan 93 12:38:26 GMT
Reply-To: drukier@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Institute of Astronomy, Cambridge

In article 10290@philmtl.philips.ca, ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
>
>It only costs $1.08 to travel from anywhere, to anywhere on the island of
>Montreal, with as many transfers as required (but only one part of the
>journey can be by metro unfortunately, all others by bus).  On boarding a
>bus, a transfer is obtained which can be used for access within 90 minutes
>to any other connecting bus or the metro.  When entering the metro station
>another transfer is obtained which is good for another 90 minutes, to be
>used for busses after leaving the metro.
>
>I know of no other city that you can board a bus, do your business at the
>other end, and _return_ home on the same fare (other than by buying a
>return or two-way ticket of course), and who can imagine a 50 kilometer
>journey in, say, London, for 60 pence?
>-- 
>Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
>ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  ray@cam.org           |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray

In Vancouver, as of about a year or more ago, the fare gets you a 90+ minute
transfer (often up to 2 hours) for unlimited travel.  I think that San Francisco
has a similar system on the buses there.

---
^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
Gordon Drukier                     Institute of Astronomy
drukier@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk         University of Cambridge
Phone (0223)337548/+44 223 337548  Madingley Road
Fax (0223)337528/+44 223 337528    Cambridge, CB3 0HA
                                   England	
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
From: wheelan@cs.mcgill.ca (Bill HEELAN)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: canadian subway
Date: 10 Jan 93 04:53:03 GMT
Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, Canada


  I seem to remember reading that a _lot_ more heat than expected was
  generated by the trains, so the air-conditioning systems in the stations
  had to be upgraded.

  Maybe this explains why the stations are either far too hot, or far
  too cold...

                                                      - Bill
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:49:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.061740.21044@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>You are deadset opposed to giving a meal to a starving person so that
>they have are able to think clearly enough to exercise their vote
>properly...yet you seem perfectly willing to steal from individuals
>to have a publically-funded fire department...what a misplaced set
>of priorities!

spoken like a true socialist.

how typical of a hypocrite to simply repeat for the hundredth time
a stupid, overly-simplistic pile of crud such as this, after his opponent
has already ripped his position into tiny pieces and he has chosen to
ignore those arguments.

beneath contempt.
--
charles
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9820 can.politics:11258
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:01:07 EST
From: John G. Spragge <SPRAGGEJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Taxation as Theft (was Re: Negative Income Tax)
 <1993Jan7.065013.19631@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
 <93007.141438SPRAGGEJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <1993Jan8.042007.20526@csi.uottawa.ca>

In article <1993Jan8.042007.20526@csi.uottawa.ca>, cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
(Christopher Browne) says:
>
>If there's no individual "right", then it's going to be rather
>difficult to determinine a way of having a state's "right," isn't it?

No state has any rights whatsoever. A state represents an intellectual
tool, a paradigm, and those (us) who use it may alter, reduce, change,
or annihilate it at any time, and for any reason (or none).

The debate over property rights boils down to two simple questions: can
we define a set of rights by individuals over the physical world? And
if so, do the current state arrangements (ie. real estate law, joint
stock corporations, bank deposit insurance, et al) approximate this
ideal?

I do not argue in favour of "rights" for the state (an absurdity); nor
do I argue that any rights stem from force. Might does not make right
(and right rarely makes might, alas).

Your culture will adapt to service ours - Columbus to Natives, 1492
Your culture will adapt to service ours - Borg to Captain Picard, 24th C.

standard disclaimers apply ----------------------- John G. Spragge
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: Re: Working permit for Canada?
Organization: Not Philips.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:09:21 GMT

In refd article, zxmsu01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Joost Schuur) writes:
> My question is,
>what requirements are there for a foreigner to get a working permit/visa
>in your country. Do I have to prove I have a certain amount of money
>when I enter the country or present a return ticket? Can anyone tell
>me something about the job market for unskilled labor in Canada at
>the moment? I'm 21, have a drivers' licsense and a (German) high school
>diploma and have worked before, but do not have any degree. What 
>possibilities are there for a young, prosperous globetrotter who wouldn't
>say no to physical labour?

Unfortunately, unemployment in Canada is currently over 11%.  There is no
way you could get a work permit without already having a job offer from an
employer in some profession where it could be shown that there was no
Canadian suitable.

If you are prosperous, come for a holiday.  You'll enjoy it.
-- 
Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  ray@cam.org           |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
From: farid@dso011.sch.ge.com (Farid)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: NAFTA
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:54:05 GMT
Organization: GE Power Generation


	Hi ! Guys ... Will some kind soul provide me information about the
	NAFTA ... What are the benifits we Canadians are getting out of it ?


	Thanx ....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics