HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 17 Nov 1992 18:36:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In <1992Nov15.231107.21506@netcom.com> Tom Maddox writes
|In article <1992Nov11.004618.29074@ncsu.edu> echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT) writes:
|
|>This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.
|
|	Maybe yes, maybe no.  At the time I posted, I felt qualms about
|doing so, but I thought about my own responses to seeing others' similar
|announcements and decided to go ahead with it.
|
|	What motivated me (and I suspect motivates most others) was not a
|wish to bend the net to my need to turn a profit but rather was pride.
  . . .
|	However, if people find such announcements objectionable,
|they should say so; and if not, they should say that. . . .

Definitely not (objectionable, that is).  Even putting aside the fact
that people legitimately post product announcements (as distinct from
advertisements) on technical newsgroups, we* consider this sort of
posting both interesting and relevant.

	/JBL

*Speaking strictly for myself and me, of course.

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Theresa Jarosz Alberti <sapphire@wings.micro.umn.edu>
Subject: Natalie Goldberg
X-Xxdate: Mon, 23 Nov 92 09:08:33 GMT
Organization: Authors with Twins
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:45:38 GMT

My husband recently set me up using a different computer and system, so
I've had a little trouble lately figuring out how to send messages here. 
I noticed my original post  on Natalie Goldberg's workshop was empty, so
let me try again here.  I think I've got it figured out now!

Last weekend I attended a writing workshop given by Natalie Goldberg,
author of "Wild Mind" and "Writing Down the Bones."  This is supposedly
her last workshop for a good many years.  I'm so glad I had the
opportunity to attend.  I've read her books and used her method of
writing practice for several years now.  While I didn't learn anything
new (I didn't expect to, since I'd read the books), it was a really
rewarding opportunity for me to reinforce those self-nurturing beliefs
she teaches concerning writing, rather than the self-critical ones I
struggle with when I sit down to write.

Has anyone else here been to one of her workshops?

Awhile back on this board, the topic came up concerning how-to writing
books and what people thought of them.  I remember someone writing about
Natalie Goldberg's books and saying that he didn't know how much credit
to give to Goldberg's teachings on writing because she'd never published
anything besides writing books and a few poems.  Well, now you'll be able
to judge for yourself because she announced at the workshop her
soon-to-be published books:  "Long Quiet Highway" (nonfiction about her
meditaion/writing teacher and other teachers) and "Banana Rose"
(fiction).  

I personally recommend her books on writing.  They've helped me out a lot
in being able to dismantle the very critical editor in my head and get
writing, and also to get in touch with the strength of my own voice.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: earp@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J.Kevin Earp)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:16:32 GMT

In article <17652@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>This week I learned from my agent that I haven't just sold Redmagic, but also
>the proposed third book of the trilogy, Blackmagic. This is good news, in a
[Stuff deleted]

>decision about yet another novel I've been hoping to complete. Nice to have
>lots of irons in the fire...
>
Congratulations!  I hope someday I'll be in your shoes, though right 
now it sounds kind of frightening to have the pressure of more than
one project in demand at a time.

I just finished my first manuscript (written for publication at any
rate) and given out copies to friends to critique.  I ran into an 
unanticipated anxiety at this point.  I had never let anybody read
anything that was finished before, which left me able to say "It 
still needs work," and thereby negate any negative criticism.  Now
through my manuscript I feel like I'm opening my mind to let other
people peer in.  I hadn't anticipated this to be such a scarey feeling.
We all have a facade that we show others, no matter how honest it is.
That facade hides all the darker thoughts, feelings of inadequacy, 
and the other things we don't want anybody else to know about our-
selves.  Now I feel like I'm offering a part of me on a platter for
close examination, and I'm nervous about what they'll find.

Can anybody relate.


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Theresa Jarosz Alberti <sapphire@wings.micro.umn.edu>
Subject: Attending a Natalie Goldberg Workshop
X-Xxdate: Tue, 17 Nov 92 09:53:26 GMT
Organization: Authors with Twins
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:30:40 GMT


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: randal@pylon.physics.colostate.edu (randal rheinheimer)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:00:41 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Nov23.151632.10133@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  
earp@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J.Kevin Earp) writes:
> I just finished my first manuscript (written for publication at any
> rate) and given out copies to friends to critique.  I ran into an 
> unanticipated anxiety at this point.  I had never let anybody read
> anything that was finished before, which left me able to say "It 
> still needs work," and thereby negate any negative criticism.  Now
> through my manuscript I feel like I'm opening my mind to let other
> people peer in.  I hadn't anticipated this to be such a scarey feeling.
> We all have a facade that we show others, no matter how honest it is.
> That facade hides all the darker thoughts, feelings of inadequacy, 
> and the other things we don't want anybody else to know about our-
> selves.  Now I feel like I'm offering a part of me on a platter for
> close examination, and I'm nervous about what they'll find.
> 
> Can anybody relate.
> 
I'm nearing the same point, but I haven't waited until now to show friends what  
I've written for their input.  It was very difficult at first, but I've grown  
more comfortable with letting people see what I've written as most have reacted  
positively.  I think the feelings of inadequacy are probably pretty universal,  
but maybe it's just you and I who are insecure . . . no; I can't imagine that.
Rand
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (Kyle Cassidy)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Ways to Say Someone's Crazy
Summary: ways to say someone's crazy
Keywords: phrases crazy
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:19:05 GMT

In article <By6Fo3.DGo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> kaman@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Geri Kaman) writes:
>From: kaman@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Geri Kaman)
>Subject: Wanted: Ways to Say Someone's Crazy
>Summary: ways to say someone's crazy
>Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:12:01 GMT
>Keywords: phrases crazy
>Geri Kaman
>kaman@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu

toys in the attic
truely gone fishing
elevator doesn't quite reach the top
a few sandwitches short of a picnic
down a few pawns
missing some buttons
nuts
wacko
"mental health consumer"

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:11:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.004618.29074@ncsu.edu> echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT) writes:

[I write]:

>I am using this group to announce recently published work.

[He writes]:

>I'm disturbed by this new trend of announcing new publications.

>This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.

	Maybe yes, maybe no.  At the time I posted, I felt qualms about
doing so, but I thought about my own responses to seeing others' similar
announcements and decided to go ahead with it.

	What motivated me (and I suspect motivates most others) was not a
wish to bend the net to my need to turn a profit but rather was pride.

>If this kind of thing gets started, the place will become cluttered
>with advertisements.  I'm not the net police or anything, but I
>don't like it....

	Fair enough.  I'm not concerned much, by the way, with the 
sacrosanct "commercial use of the Internet"--which seems to me a *very*
fuzzy notion--but with the wishes of those in the newsgroup.  (To briefly
address the fuzziness of the idea, consider that one of the publications
I mentioned is produced by a professional organization which I believe has
non-profit status; certainly, I received no payment for what I wrote for 
them, nor will I.  Is announcing this publication in any sense 
"commercial"?)

	However, if people find such announcements objectionable,
they should say so; and if not, they should say that.  I remain interested 
to hear about what others are publishing and do not begrudge them the 
opportunity to say so in even reasonably appropriate newsgroups; 
I am also willing to concede that I may be blinded by self-interest and 
so unable to see that such actions should not occur.

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
				Alex Alexander
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Sympathetic Villains and Protagonists.
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:14:05 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <17482@mindlink.bc.ca>, Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes:
|I think that the maxim "the villain must pat the dog" is a bit misleading.  I
|suspect the very act of showing your killer and the internal consistency of
|his motivations generates sympathy.  I believe it is a symplification to say
|one can only generate reader-interest in a character by having him do some
|overt act of kindness--i.e. petting the dog.  Many people who are not
|axe-wielding villains are in real life overtly unsympathetic.  One can begin
|to sympathize with their state, though, when one gets inside their head.
|
|You don't need a Spielberg angel-music "awwwww" reaction to generate
|sympathy, you only need understanding.

This was more-or-less my point.  The agent who told me the killer had
to pat the dog said that that was a COMMERCIAL concern--the odds that
an acquisitions editor would buy the ms without a pat-the-dog scene
or two were prohibitively bad.  I'm passing that advice along for anyone
who cares.

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
From: winston@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Run on sentences
Followup-To: misc.writing
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:03:11 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <1992Nov23.181409.29089@srg.srg.af.mil>, dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
> Or what, really.  This a pretty short sentence for Lovecraft.  I recall one
> that went on for more than one page (in a paperback).  I think that it was
> from "The Strange Case of" someone with an old New England name.  Still, he
> is a good writer...or is he?
> 
> 	David Pipes

"Charles Dexter Ward," if memory serves.  (Obnoxiously enough, this was filmed
with Vincent Price as, approximately, "Edgar Allan Poe's The Haunted Palace.")

I've read a lot of Lovecraft.  He often wrote in a fake-archaic way; he usually
told, rather than showing (when he didn't claim it was too horrible even to
tell); his short stories were often of the annoying kind that end with a
sentence in italics, like "The face was the face of Minky the cat, but the
whiskers were those of Colonel Claude Combpyne;"* his characterization was
usually flat or nonexistent; and he used the word "non-Euclidean" without,
perhaps, a very clear idea of what it meant.  (Try drawing a picture of a
castle in which two points don't define a line.)

Nonetheless, he managed to write some pretty powerful stuff.  "The Outsider,"
"The Shadow Over Innsmouth," "The Call of Cthulhu," "Dagon" and "At the
Mountains of Madness" are intriguing and compelling, and he had some original
and bizarre ideas  (not like Tim Powers, maybe, but pretty striking).

I think Lovecraft has to be classed as a good writer who didn't write well.
(This is different from, say, Stephen King, who is a compelling storyteller who
writes with consistent competence, at least.)

-- Alan

* I don't know where I got this quote.  It's clearly not from a real story
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Critique wanted, also - POEM
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:12:37 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner


PLEASE, people, this is NOT the newsgroup for posting ANYTHING for
critiques.  (Could someone post the relevant section of the FAQ?)

There are already groups for that:  alt.prose(.d) and alt.poetry(.d)
for the obvious division of labor.  This is a group specifically
dedicated to discussion of writing as a craft and business, not to
discuss individual writings.

Thank you and have a nice day.

	Larry "More coffee, please" Hammer
--

                         \   The work is rather too light, and bright,
LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  and sparkling; it wants ... a long chapter
sometimes a Wombat         \ of solemn specious nonsense. -- Jane Austen
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: troly@redwood.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 05:49:11 GMT


   I thought Tom Maddox's posts about his publications were
entirely legitimate.  He is, after all, an active contributor to
this newsgroup, not a faceless corporation.  I think many readers
of this newsgroup are interested in seeing what qualifications
the frequent posters have.  In this newsgroup, that means the
ability to write, which is probably correlated with the ability
to get published.
From: larryw@lclark.edu (Larry Westdahl)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Graduate School
Date: 21 Nov 92 03:52:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Nov21.035217.5731
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1992Nov20.210338.2436@reed.edu> ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon) writes:
>I would suggest that anyone interested in graduate writing programs
>should look into the Iowa writer's program at the big state university
>there.
>
>As far as writing courses in general, Harlan Ellison has an interesting
>account of the way he ran a writer's workshop--participants in his
>week-long segment of a summer program for fantasy and sci fi writers
>were required to write a story a day. (I can't remember the source of
>this anecdote, unfortunately.)
>
>Elizabeth (ehudon@reed.edu)
>
>

Iowa is to writers what Juliard is to musicians.  I imagine the competition
in terms of admission is pretty stiff.  The only criticism I ever heard
of Iowa was that they encourage their students to write "confessional"
stories, which I guess is okay for mainstream fiction.  Since that is what
I write, I guess it's okay with me.


-- 

_____
larryw@lclark.edu | *L.Westdahl is a caring nurturer, a member of several
writer, musician  | twelve step programs, but not a licensed therapist.
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Intersting point?
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:15:30 GMT
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC

In article <22908@venera.isi.edu>, jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) wrote:

> Look at "Henry: Portraint of a Serial Killer" for a (relatively)
> sympathetic portrayal of a serial killer.  (It's a movie.)

Also, Harris' "Red Dragon," (it predates, I think, his "Silence
of the Lambs") gives a look  into a serial killer's childhood.  And, of
course, Tom Tryon's "The Other."

Maureen (aka Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: test
From: cpsstb@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:21:16 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University 

Please ignore - this is a test.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: speech interruption
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 11:31:37 GMT

In article <Nov22.230654.45607@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> randal@pylon.physics.colostate.edu (randal rheinheimer) writes:
>I've come across a problem in my all-too-amateurish writing and am asking those  
>more experienced (or just more imaginative) for help.  There is a certain flow  
>I wish to maintain in putting a thought or a description inside a spoken  
>sentence, but no particular construction seems right to me.  Here is an example  
>of the sort of thing I'm working with:
>
>She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" Her hands became clumsy on the  
>keyboard. "--and I hope you're able to help me."
>
>That's the best construction I had come up with, so I knew that it was past  
>time to get help; it's just not right to put a complete sentence in the middle  
>of the spoken phrase.  Possibly the dashes could be placed outside the  
>quotation marks:

No, the punctuation is ok. I've seen this construction in the work
of excellent writers. But in this case you might want to try
different arrangements to get it to "sound right". On the other hand
sometimes the saying is more important than the sounding.

Nigel
From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Wanted: Ways to Say Someone's Crazy
Date: 24 Nov 1992 03:51:02 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
Keywords: phrases crazy

This is misc.writing.  Show, don't tell:

He grabbed a slice of bread and slashed at her throat.  "If you ever
call me crazy again," he said menacingly, "I'll use a bananna next time."

-- 
		David Palmer		 palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: alex@biostat.washington.edu (Alex MacKenzie)
Subject: Graduate School/Clarion
Organization: Biostatistics, School of Public Health, Univ. of Wash.
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:21:12 GMT

Clarion consists of two separate workshops: Clarion East, and Clarion
West, each held during the summer every year.  I don't have the address
for C.East, but for info on C.West, write:

Clarion West
340 Fifteenth Ave. East
Suite 350
Seattle, WA  98112

Ph: (206) 322-9083.

In summary of my earlier post, it's designed for those who are serious
about being professional SF/fantasy writers (though other genres are also
encouraged--it's just that the instructors are usually pros in the SF field),
and who need a TON of good feedback in a short time.  It's limited to
20 students (selected on the basis of a writing sample).  For six weeks
you spend 4-6 hours every day critiquing your fellow students' stories,
then you get 5-6 new stories to read that afternoon/evening in order to
critique them the next day, plus you're supposed to find time to write
your own stories right there and then, during the workshop.  Most
students stay in a dorm near the classroom, all on the same floor.  So you
basically spend six weeks reading, writing, critiquing, talking and
breathing stories.  Very intense.  Also tough on the ego: your fellow
students will know a LOT about SF, about writing, about the markets;
and they will be brutally honest when it comes to critiquing your work. 
But if you're serious about what you want to do, then this is exactly what
you need.

If your interest lies more in mainstream fiction, then go ahead and check
out the various college/univ. writing programs.  The University of
Washington (ok, I'm biased, I work here) has a highly regarded creative
writing program (MFA).  Charles Johnson, recent winner of the National
Book Award, is an instructor, as is Joanna Russ.  These two, however, do
not teach very often anymore, and this is something to be careful of in
selecting a program.  Don't judge it just by the professors, make sure you
find out how ACTIVELY involved they are in teaching, and find out
what the focus of the program is on--some creative writing programs
include courses on what they nicely refer to as "commercial" fiction; my
feeling is that most do not, and are much more "academic".

The address for info is:

Graduate Program Coordinator
English Dept., GN-30
University of Washington
Seattle, WA  98195

Hope this helps.
From: 01jmbrown@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: speech interruption
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:56:23 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's




>>I've come across a problem in my all-too-amateurish writing and am asking those  
>>more experienced (or just more imaginative) for help.  There is a certain flow  
>>I wish to maintain in putting a thought or a description inside a spoken  
>>sentence, but no particular construction seems right to me.  Here is an example  
>>of the sort of thing I'm working with:
>>
>>She said, "I'm posting you about my problem--" Her hands became clumsy on the  
>>keyboard. "--and I hope you're able to help me."

Spoken sentence?  That might be what's getting to you. I wouldn't worry about
making the quote into a sentence.  People rarely talk in complete sentences.
Maybe just winging it would work. Try imagining yourself as the character and
try saying out loud (not in your head, it doesn't work) what your character
wants to say....

Maybe something as simple as keeping the non-quotes as sentences and the quotes
as whatever sounds good - forget about good grammar.

She said, "I've got a problem... " Her hands became clumsy on the keyboard.
"I hope you can help."

or

"I'm posting you about my problem," she said, her hands moving clumsily on
the keyboard. "I hope you can help."

there the non-quotes aren't really sentences, but the quotes are...

don't worry about grammar so much when you write. worry about grammar when
you edit what you've written. But don't edit _as_ you write... maybe that
will help... too often when I write it's hard not to criticize my writing
_as_ I'm writing it. That distracts me from the purpose -- writing.
Writing and editing are two different skills, writing gets your thoughts OUT
and lets you expand... editing constricts and restricts your words. Using the
two together is difficult.

just opinions....
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: agc@weasel.demon.co.uk (Alan Charlton)
Subject: Re: Question on parenthetical style
Reply-To: agc@weasel.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: nowhere in particular...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:49:26 +0000

In article <1ec221INNi41@GIRAFFE.ZOO.CS.YALE.EDU> schwarz-marc@cs.yale.edu (Marc Schwarz) writes:

> What is the preferred style for parenthetical expressions? 
> 
> I have seen: 
> 
>    1. Mary had a little lamb (and the doctor died of shock).
> 
>    2. Mary had a little lamb (The doctor died of shock.).
> 
>    3. Mary had a little lamb. (The doctor died of shock.)
> 
> This is actually two questions:  Should parentheticals 
> be dependent or independent clauses?  In addition, should
> independent parentheticals be embedded within another
> independent clause? (This presumes paretheticals should,
> in most cases, be independent clauses.) In practice, I tend
> to use the first example, the notion being that an independent
> clause can stand on its own (no matter how tangential it is).

I generally use example [1] where the text in parentheses is directly in context with
or related to the sentence.  Of course, this isn't hard'n'fast rule by any means;  I'd 
tend to use example [3] where the text in parentheses could be treated independently.
Example [2], however, just looks weird :-)

Cheers,

- Alan.

+---------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Alan Charlton, Bristol, England |   I swear at you 'cause I believe that     |
| agc@cix.compulink.co.uk         |   sweet-talk, like candy, rots teeth....   |
| agc@weasel.demon.co.uk          |                                            |
| Tel:  +44 454 202706 (after 6)  |   --- Prefab Sprout - "Hallelujah"         |
+---------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+