From: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Vesselin Bontchev)
Subject: Re: PKP/RSA comments on PGP legality
Reply-To: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Organization: Virus Test Center, University of Hamburg
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:03:11 GMT

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

> Vesselin Bontchev says:

> >But he's a professor of LAW, not of ethics! And that message from Jim
> >Bidzos contained legal threats, it didn't just say "hey guys, you are
> >doing wrong things by unethically using out work, please don't"... I'm
> >glad that somebody with enough professional experience has clearly
> >showed that all legal threats from PKP & Co. are completely bogus and
> >should be ignored.

> Vesselin is concatenating two separate things in order to try to make his
> case. This is fallacious. The legal arguments apply in the U.S. Bidzos'
> message was sent to two specific U.S. people, and was not a general
> post, much less to Europeans.

David is using out-of-context quoting in order to try to make his
case. This is fallacious. Jim Bidzos' message was posted here and you
are using some of his arguments in your postings. Mr. Moglen used that
message to demostrate that the legal threats in it are completely
bogus, even in the USA. You are making noise all over the net, not
just in the USA. In fact, as several people have pointed to you, if
somebody might have problems using PGP, it is the US citizens. And it
is up to them to decide whether it is worth to do something about it
and to actually do something about it, if necessary. We, most of the
world, don't actually care. The only inconvenience might be that we
might have problems to communicate with our friends in the USA using
PGP. I personally think that we don't have even such problems, but it
is just my own oppinion. Everybody should make their own mind whether
they will use PGP or not. The US citizens are encouraged to consult a
laywer. You are free not to use PGP if you don't want to, if you think
that it is illegal/immoral, of if you are scared to. Nobody forces you
to use it. Just quit this newsgroup and leave the others the freedom
to decide whether to use it or not. You've made enough noise like
that...

> The ethical arguments are mine, not his, and in my view apply both
> inside and outside the U.S.

You are always bringing up ethical arguments when your legal arguments
are shown to be wrong and are always bringing up legal arguments, when
your ethical arguments are shown to be questionable.

> Thus Vesselin's conclusion is a nonsense. The professor did not show

Thus you conclusions are a nonsense.

> If Vesselin wishes to ignore the danger that his activities will put
> him in bad odor with the U.S. Government, that's his privilege. He may

Yes, I wish to ignore that, because I believe that there are
absolutely no dangers from part of the U.S. government, if I use PGP
to communicate with the rest of the world.

> have no intention ever to try to visit here, or may think his
> activities won't jeopardize his ability so to do, or to obtain U.S

I do have intention to visit "there" - in March. I have already done
this twice, and both times had no problems, regardless that the
appropriate people are certainly aware of my activities. So I have the
full right to think that there will be no problems the next time
either. In fact, some of my activities in my main field of interest
actually render some services to anybody in the USA...

> Government research funds (or may never want any). That sounds like an
> adult decision to me, and as long as he's willing to live with the
> consequences, I don't have any problem with it as long as he's clear
> that he's speaking for himself and not making an advocacy for anyone
> else's behavior.

I am certainly happy to live with the consequences and am certainly
speaking for myself. My oppinion is that the usage of PGP is both
perfectly legal and ethical. Therefore, I have chosen to use it. I do
not force anybody to use it. It is you who are trying to force the
others -not- to use it. Don't use it yourself, if you don't want to,
but shut up and leave the others to live their own life.

> his use of the word "tantrum" he is not. it seems Vesselin is saying
> that he believes lawyers on his side, but not lawyers on the other.

Of course I do believe the lawyers who are on my side and not to those
who are with the opposite side! What's wrong with that? Doesn't
everybody do the same?

> >I see that he (Jim Bidzos) has "converted" you... :-)

> So Vesselin thinks I don't have a mind of my own, and can't tell valid
> argumentation from bogus.

So David is unable to see a joke when he reads it. Regardless of the
smiley, put there for the humour impaired. OK, so you want to be
serious. Yes, I have observed a remarkable inability from your side to
tell valid argumentation from bogus.

> >They don't have petents outside the USA, so there's nothing wrong in
> >using it...

> Yes, this has been the position of many. To hide behind legalisms to
> ignore an ethical argument speaks for itself. To be consistent, such a

I refuse to discuss ethics with you. Your own ethical positions have
been already questioned by many, but ethical systems cannot be
compared, so I am not going to say whether yours is "good" or "bad".
The existence of laws is something objective, however. Fact is, that
there is no law preventing me from using PGP, regardless whether you
like it or not.

> position would also mean that Vesselin would have to support all those
> nasty U.S. laws he doesn't like.

I don't "like" or "dislike" them. I just don't give a dime about them.
They do not apply to me. I'll bother to comply to them (regardless
whether I "like" or "dislike" them) only while I am on the teritory of
the USA.

> But no; Vesselin and his ilk like to
> pick and choose--accept the laws that get them what they want, and
> attack the ones (or absence of ones) that might prevent them from
> getting what they want.

I am accepting only one set of laws - those of the country I am in.
Additionally, I am polite enough not to require the citizens of the
other countries to accept the same set of laws. If they don't, I do
not say that their position is unethical and that they must change it.
You are doing that. I am on the net since more than a year, and have
met all kinds of people, from all over the world. Very few of them 
take an attitude like yours.  Interestingly enough, all of them reside 
in the USA...

> This isn't a moral or ethical position, it's
> naked self-interest, and Vesselin and others should stop pretending
> it's anything else.

Yeah, yeah. The whole world is wrong, only David's position right,
moral, ethical, legal, and so on. So everybody should do what David
tells you and stop pretending anything else...

Regards,
Vesselin
-- 
Vesselin Vladimirov Bontchev          Virus Test Center, University of Hamburg
Tel.:+49-40-54715-224, Fax: +49-40-54715-226      Fachbereich Informatik - AGN
< PGP 2.1 public key available on request. > Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30, rm. 107 C
e-mail: bontchev@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de    D-2000 Hamburg 54, Germany
Newsgroups: sci.crypt