From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 12/7/92] summary of past topics	Distilled non-wisdom (5/28) XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 12:20:20 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

Panel 5

A summary of topics discussed in this news group since inception.
Most have opinions pro and con, we do not attempt to summarize these here.

Topics: (many topics discussed in other groups instead e.g., r.b.p.)

Guns
	Hunting (rec.hunting [moderated] better)
	Control
	
Domestic animals: dogs, horses (rec.equestrian better), cows, sheep, 
'Ecology' and environment (some talk.environment better)
	Wild animals
		'Lethal' wildlife, bears, etc.  (Also see guns, environment)
		general questions about wildlife, snakes, 
	Plants botany
		Spring flowers
		(forests big in ca|sci|talk.environment)
Equipment, munge, gear, junk, rangoon, stuff
	(largely seekable in books or vendor literature, at stores, mail order)
	Stoves			Water filters
	Tents			Sleeping bags (cleaning)
	Packs			Bivy sacks
	Altimeters		Flares
	Radios/phones/GPS	Special accounts
	REI the company (#s)	repairs
Food
	Recipes			Dehydration
	Memorable meals
Climbing (rec.climbing better)
	Protection		ethics
	style			chalk
	Testing, physics, etc.	Ratings, names of climbs,
	'Lycra and wool'
	alt.lycra
Sport climbing (rec.climbing better)
	climbing walls
Skills
	To build a fire, Quest for fire
	Maps
	General survival, military survival
Locations
	Where?
	Limited trip reports
	Conditions
Environmental issues
	Giardia/Lyme Disease/Poison Oak		Land Ethics
	Man's place in				Mountain bikes
	4WD					Technology
	Weather (day, night, lightning)		Natl. Parks/Forests
	Definitions of wilderness/mountains/etc.History
	Altitude and altitude sickness
	What goes on/ happens/ to do in evenings
No, giardia, mosquitos, poison oak, do not confur immunity in small
doses/exposures.

Music, singing, sound, reading ('off-hour' entertainment), riddles
Rescue
	Equipment of 
	Stories, epics, accidents
	First Aid -- Tourniquets
Employment (life style misc.rural)
	Computer and non-computer related
	Volunteer work (trail building/hut maintenance)
Ski mountaineering and other winter activities (rec.skiing better)
	avalanches
General mountain trivia
Reading
	St. Edward Abbey
	McPhee
	Films
	Others
Boats (rec.boats.paddle better)
Caving (caving mailing list, see panel 26)

Minorities (Black, Asian, Native American)
Women (fewer) and the outdoors
Beginners: at anything (Tenderfeet)
	Children
Learning: NOLS, OB
	Waviers, disclaimers, liability
If topics do not appear it, it may be that they have moved to other
newsgroups.

General "News" from other media
	Sensation, records, happening, events

The different groups reading r.b tend to fall thusly:
Beginners (novices) and infrequents tend to ask obvious material
(hardware) and concrete questions: equipment to buy, fads & fashion, etc.
Most likely to faux pas.  Possibly follows Boehm/Brooks curves about
hardware and softyware.

Intermediates: More experience and concern with where to go,
technique, practice, less concrete ideas, less tangible tastes (developing).
Starting to understand limits.

More advanced: questions ethics, styles, philosophy, least tangible of all.
Opinions change and flucuate.  Shortest description.

=====

      He went away from the basement of Building 14 that day,
      and left this note in his cubicle, on top of his computer
      terminal: "I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal
      with no unit of time shorter than a season."
	--The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder

=====

Understand the procedure, now?'
Just stop a few of their machines and radios and telephones and lawnmowers.
Throw them into darkness for a few hours, and then, sit back and watch 
the pattern.

"And this pattern is always the same?"

With few variations.
They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find, and it's themselves.
All we need do is sit back and watch.

"And I take it this place, Maple Street, is not unique."

By no means, their world is full of Maple streets.
And we will go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves.
One to the other.
One to the other.
One to the other.

Serling:
The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions 
and fallout.  There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, 
prejudices -- to be found in the minds of men.  For the record, prejudices 
can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search 
for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own -- for the children and the
children yet unborn.  And the pity of it is that these things cannot be
confined to the Twilight Zone.

TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

5/ Summary of past topics	<* THIS PANEL *>
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Phone / address lists
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation and advice
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Words from Rachel Carson
11/ Snake bite
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ Morbid backcountry/memorial
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS
22/ Words from Foreman and Hayduke
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
1/ DISCLAIMER
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)

Oh, boy.  This is a religious issue, and I've been flamed before for even
sticking a toe in it.  To be as neutral as possible:

Bringing a dog in the backcountry is illegal in many National Parks,
and is illegal unless the dog is on a leash at all times in many
wilderness areas.  The Colorado Mountain Club doesn't permit dogs on its
trips, and I believe this is true for most such organizations.

Reasons:
- most dogs will harass wildlife to some degree, and even the best-behaved
dog will scare the hell out of most wild critters, a stress they don't need
on top of the problems they already have from too many people and too little
habitat.

- most (non-dog-bringing) people really don't like having other people's dogs
around while they're in the backcountry.  At best, as a friend once said,
"bringing a dog is like bringing a brass band." They disturb the peace of
the backcountry, and reduce the chances of seeing any wildlife to near zero.

- In heavily used areas, the dogshit is a problem because of worries about
spreading giardia and other nasties. Not to mention what it does to the trails.

All that said, _lots_ of people do it, and usually nothing happens to them
aside from a few nasty looks. Your Milage May Vary.

			Chuck Smythe

	Bring the dog.

	Leave the dog at home.

	Dogs have the same right to be in the backcountry as people.

	Dogs scare off wildlife, and cause undue stress to fragile species.

	Dogs protect you against wild animals at night.

	Dogs attract bears like honey, and lead the bears straight to you.

	Dogs don't tear up the environment any more than people/horses.

	Dogs shit in the woods, and carry diseases.

	Dogs can be quiet and well behaved.

	Dogs intrude upon the privacy of other backcountry users.

	etc.  

	etc.

From awesley@vela.acs.oakland.edu  Wed Mar  4 17:54:44 1992
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Date: Wed, 4 Mar 92 20:54:36 -0500
From: awesley@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Tony Wesley)
Message-Id: <9203050154.AA00335@vela.acs.oakland.edu>
To: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Another Dog Bite/Call Cops
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Status: R

Greetings.

In rec.backcountry you write:
[etc...]

>I grabbed two of the dog articles and will edit them into panel 5 (previous
>topics).  (Chuck and Brian's articles)

May I offer another contribution to the panel?  I wrote the following and
uploaded it to CompuServe's OUTDOOR forum about 3-4 years ago.
     ======================================================================
                       Take the Dog?

    Many of us like to get away for one or two weeks in the summer, and
camp in a state or national park.  For those of us with dogs, this can
create a dilemma.  What do we do with Fido?  

    There are three choices.  One, you can have Fido boarded while you
are away.  You can leave your pet with a friend or relative. Or thirdly,
you can take your dog with you.  Which is best for you and your dog?

    Boarding houses are usually well run.  Many of the people in this
business are there because they like animals.  But, to be on the safe
side, you should have dealt with this house before or known someone who
has.  A good animal boarding house will exercise your dog.  Your dog
should get attention.  It should be clean and keep your dog from being
exposed to diseased animals.  If you chose your place carefully, you'll
be relaxed on your vacation knowing that Fido is safe and happy on his
vacation.  

    Family and friends are great -- if they and your dog get along.  If
you have a friend who is also a dog owner, perhaps you can work out an
arrangement to "doggysit" for each other.  But make sure that they know
your dog, that they have the time to take care of your pet.  Remember
that your pet is going to be upset that you are gone.  If your pet's
temporary caretaker is gone too long, your pet may develop poor toilet
habits or start chewing things.

    So, why not take the dog with you?  If you and your dog are ready
for it, this can be the best experience of all.  My dog, Pepper, has
seen more of Michigan than most of its residents.  Pepper has been on
many car camping trips, a couple canoe journeys, as well as backpacking
and several extended day hikes. 

    Before you take the dog, ask yourself some questions.  Does your dog
bark a lot?  Is it high strung?  If you are camping in a fairly crowded
park, as many are on holidays, you may have neighboring campers only 20
or 30 feet away.  It's their vacation too.  If your dog is not
well-mannered, it is best to leave it behind.

    Will you be doing things that require you to leave the dog behind?
Many people have different ideas on how to camp.  Do you plan on going
into town for meals and spending the evening at the local watering hole? 
Perhaps you want to take a boat cruise or a train ride.  You probably
cannot take your dog there.

     Make sure your dog is allowed where you're going.  For instance,
dogs are not allowed in the backpacking country of Pictured Rocks
National Park.  I believe this is true for the National Parks in
general.  Avoid the tragedy of traveling with your pet for hundreds of
miles and finding out you can't stay where you planned. 

    Many dogs can stay in the car for an hour or so without incident. 
If you do, be sure that the car isn't too hot.  Direct sunlight can heat
the interior of car to over 120 degrees.  Don't leave your dog back at
the campsite.  A barking dog tied to a picnic table for hours is sure to
invite a lynching party for its owners and deservedly so.  Pepper stays
in the car if we go into town, normally a rare occurrence when we camp. 
We make sure the windows are partially lowered.  The car is parked in
the shade if possible, a sun shield is placed in the windshield.

    Is there enough room for your pet?  With today's smaller cars,
taking the dog may pose yet another problem.  Pepper is a large dog, a
mixed breed Bouvier/German Shepherd/Labrador/??? weighing in at eighty
pounds.  She requires most of the back seat of our Escort.  Toss a
cooler in the back seat with Pepper, add camping gear in the back and
the car gets pretty crowded.  One of our most unforgettable moments
occurred when Pepper, crowded by my wife who was getting something out
of the cooler, crawled into the front seat.  Two adults and a large dog
in the front seat of an Escort is an interesting packaging problem, to
say the least.  Getting Pepper turned around and back where she belonged
rivaled the best slap-stick comedy I've ever seen.  

    So, before deciding to take your dog on vacation, make sure
everything can fit!  You may be surprised how fast you car or truck
fills up.  A practice load of your vehicle in advance is probably a good
idea if you haven't used it previously for camping.

    Have you ever traveled with your dog?  The beginning of a 10-hour
trip to the desolate netherlands is a bad place to find out that Fido
gets car sick.  

    When sleeping in a tent, you'll be in close confines with your pet.
If Fido is loaded with fleas, they'll be visiting your sleeping bag.  A
good idea is to give your dog a flea bath before you go, and then give
him one when you get back.  Your dog should have its shots, and be
protected against rabies and heartworm.  If you're not sure, check with
your veterinarian before you go.  

     And let's not forget flying insects.  While the dog's fur will
protect it against mosquitoes, black flies are a different story.  You
can spray your dog with insect repellent as long as you keep it out of
Fido's face.  The ears are a particularly vulnerable spot.  To apply it
there, spray it on your hands and rub it on your dog's ears.  Some
people use a bandanna to help keep the flies away. 

    Plan on keeping Fido under control.  Other people may not enjoy your
dog as much as you do.  Depending on how well trained your dog is, this
may or may not mean keeping it tied up all the time.  Courtesy for your
fellow vacationers when mean a more enjoyable trip for all concerned.
And don't forget to pack the dog's food, dog dishes and a leash.  And
toss in a blanket for Fido's bed.  If you and your dog are ready, you'll
have a wonderful trip!

If you have comments or question, please contact me via the OUTDOOR
forum or by electronic mail.  Thanks.  Tony Wesley 72770,2053.
     ======================================================================
>This is the Usenet: do you expect anything other than gross generalizations?

Usually not.  But sometimes there are a few sterling exceptions.
Speaking of contributions, if you e-mail to me a copy of the panel
about backcountry fatalities (where my e-mail is tacked on the back),
I'd like to clean that up a bit and add some other numbers.  Bee
strings.  Lightning strikes.  I'll shoot it back your way and see if the
mods meet with your approval, O wise one.
-- 
 Tony Wesley					 awesley@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Are you thinking of telephones and managers and where you got to be at noon?

The original simpler paragraph reads (Voge):

	"Ducks" made up of two or three stones stacked vertically have been
	place by various person to mark routes on peaks and along
	knapsack routes.  These are sometimes useful, but should be viewed
	with SKEPTICISM.  Many ducks have little significance.  Some may
	led to poorer routes.  The climber who encounters ducks down not
	usually know what the builder of the duck had in mind, and 
	it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself
	than to blindly follow a series of ducks.
	Sometimes a duck is built to mark the right (or the wrong) chute
	for descent from a ridge.  It is the feeling of the editor that
	climbers who know their business will rarely need a duck to find a
	return route. If a duck is built for such a purpose it is usually
	best to destroy it on return.  The building of ducks, except in a
	few exceptional places, should probably be discouraged.
Ref: Climbers Guides to the High Sierra by the late Hervey Voge


Article 23613 of rec.backcountry:
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: wheels in wilderness
Date: 7 Aug 92 10:16:38 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept


To answer the question about using a one wheeled device to "carry" a
pack into wilderness areas I did a bit of reading.

The Wilderness Act:

..., There shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vechicles,
motorized equpiment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other
form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation wihtin
such area.

CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Rev. July 1988

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Wilderness::

(a) Possessing or using a motor vechicle, motorboat or motorized
    equipment ...

(b) Possessing or using a hang glider or bicycle.

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Primitive Area::

(b) Possessing or using a motor or motorized equipment, except small
    battery powered hand held devices, such as cameras, shavers,
    flashlights, and Geiger-counters.


Now from the Forest Service Manual Rev. 4/86

Title 2320.5 Definitions

3. Mechanical Transport.  Any contrivance for moving people or
   material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that
   provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by
   a living or nonliving power source.  This includes, but is not
   limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game
   carriers, carts, and wagons.  It does not include wheelchairs when
   used as necessary medical applicances.


So overall I would bow out and say one wheeled devices are illegal.
And it seems that bikes have always been illegal.  But that is the
price we pay sometimes for wilderness.  Buy a goat and have it carry
your pack, they are much easier to transport, manage, and are easier
on the land than llamas, or horses. 


The final bit reading I did goes back cairns ;-).


From the CRFs pertaining to all National Forest Land (including wilderness).

The following are prohibited:

(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind road, trail,
    structure, fence, enclosure, ... , or other improvement on
    National Forest system land without a special-use authorization,
    contract, or approved operating plan.


Well as I read it constructing/maintianing a cairn (which is part of a
trail) is illegal.  It does say anything about removing them ;-))).

Allen R. Sanderson
Salt Lake City, Oootah

Long standing stove debate and criticism stands on the MSR lines of stoves.
MSR stoves were designed for winter use in the Pacific Northwest to melt
snow of water.  Period.  The joke goes the MSR has two settings: off and high.
This is for melting snow or boiling water.  If you read the directions,
they recommend that if simmering is needed, use a can lid or similar flat
plate for indirect heating.  Sure, weighs more, but it's a survival stove.
Always use the right tool for the right purpose.  

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry