From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: On Indian Civilization being the oldest..
Keywords: Aryan, Dravidian, Tamil
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:09:49 GMT



In article <Bxo02t.9ED@cs.psu.edu>, narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana) writes:

       [ I had replied to the first half of this article by Narayana
          and here I am replying to the second half. i had not deleted
          any parts of Narayana's article to preserve the context. ]
> 
> 
> Do me another favour. You claimed that during prehistoric times, the
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> Dravidonoids (meaning aboriginals; don't assume that other races
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> are subscribing to your claims or notions) festivals having Rathass
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> and so on. Can you show me a simple artifact recording through physical
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> evidence of such a  thing. 
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         First, *please* try to quote me accurately. I don't think I
         claimed that dravidianoids used rathas in festivals in
         PREHISTORIC times. ( can you please indicate in which article
         I claimed this ?). I had said , I think, in one of the
         articles, there are many Sangam Age
         poems which describe a high culture wherein they talk of
         spacious buildings and even multi-storey buildings, forts,
         armies involving thEr (chariots), elephant and horse contigents.
         Some of the Tamil Kings also seem to have had naval forces.
         Roughly the period of these is 200 B.C. - 200 A.D. I am not sure
         what artifacts are available in the Madras Museum or other
         museums. Since chariots were made of wood, they might not
         have survived. However, depictions of these can be found in
         Temples of later years. The 2000 plus year old dam 'KallaNai' 
         said to have been built by Karikaal Chozhan stands 
         testimony to the engineering
         skills at the beginning of current era. There are numerous temples
         belonging to later years belonging to later years as well. 
         There are many 
         coins of ancient period available with 'puli' = tiger marks etc.
         to prove that these kings really existed and NOT some fiction.
         Since I had not visited Poompuhar or similar collection centres
         I'm not aware of recent findings of artifacts, and I believe
         they have found quite a few. There must be
         quite a few if you look for those !
         

> If it was in Tamil literature that has 
> speculated, then can you justify to me why such a speculation should
> not be based on the Aryan Rg vedic aspects of Chariots and so on?
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        There are artifacts ( not chariots since they were perishable being
        made of wood) and yes Tamil literature talks about a lot of these
        things but they are not speculation ! 
        Rig Veda and numerous other works do tell about
        the achievements of dravidianoids. Please read them carefully.
        Rig Veda tells how the Aryans were aware of the accomplishments
        of the dravidianoids. Also remember- what is said in Tamil
        literature is far more reliable than what is said in Sanskrit !
        This is because 
      [1] Tamil literature is NOT produced by a 
          nearly exclusive group as with Sanskrit literature 
          [ The Sangam
          age poetry has some 2,250 plus songs varying in lengths from 
          as small as 3 lines to some with 800 plus lines and most
          importantly some 470 poets belonging to many different
          professions have sung - some brahmins, some gold smiths, some
          iron smelters, some potters, some kings, some professional
          bards..and many were ladies - ]

      [2] The Tamil poems were realistic and strongly appear to be based
          on real events with almost no supernatural or mythical contents.
          [ sangam poets don't claim that they heard from gods etc.]
       
      [3]  Epigraphical evidence of events described in many of the 
           Sangam Age poetries have been found ( I. Mahadevan in 1970s)
           and some well correlated by external sources as well.  

       If you read tamil poems and also read Sanskrit poems you would
       know the difference [ I don't mean any superior-inferior nature but
       significant difference in the type and nature of contents]. 
       In any case I strongly recommend to you Prof.
       George Hart's book on Ancient Tamil Poems ( Univ. of Calif. Berkely 
       Press). If you don't understand
       the originality of Tamil poems and its independent tradition from
       Vedic or Sanskritic tradition you should attempt to learn these
       traditions than merely assuming that everything came from Vedas !
       Won't you like to know what 470 poets coming from diverse professions
       have to say ? In my opinion these ancient poems coming from Tamil
       lands are a rich source of indian heritage similar to Vedas but
       more interesting in more than one way.

> 
> That is when you present argument, you have to show the completeness 
> of the argument.

      I appreciate your desire for completeness. I think I had 
      provided info and evidences as needed and I have tried to answer
      almost all the questions raised. If you look back all my posts
      on this topic and read them togather, you might see that I have
      provided a lot of info ( it is NOT rhetoric as you incorrectly say). 
      It is possible you might not agree or
      may have doubt etc. You have to do a litle work to satisfy yourself.
      Good luck.
 
> 
> Do me one more favour. You confidently give out quantitative figures
> that 90% of indians of prehistoric times were Dravidonoid (what ever
> that is). Get me two facts. Tell me what was the population of India
> in the prehistoric times and show me that the method you used has
> a scientific basis. Tell me the population figures of prehistoric races 
> in India using again scientific methods that we can believe in.

        I had mentioned several times (!!) that the composition of present
        day india is good enough to estimate the PERCENTAGES assuming
        that the fertility of all the races were roughly the same,
        no selective elimination of population were happening,
        etc. It is possible some new races might have come in etc. but
        they were not large enough to distort the percentages out of
        proportion. But if you are interested in absolute numbers you
        can consult poupulation modellers - it should be an exponential
        function of some sort. I believe that in 2000 B.C or so the
        world population was some 100 million ( I can inform you 
        more accurately after I check up some books IF you are interested).
        My opinion was on the PERCENTAGES and HOLDS GOOD QUITE WELL.
        
> 
> It is because of these aspects that we call your posts as gross.
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     I have been reading SCI and other usenets, and I don't believe that
     my postings lowered the standards! I had shared what I knew thats all.
     If you think my posts are gross it might be because you had NOT CONSIDERED
     HONESTLY what I had said [ this does not mean you had to agree with
     what I had said !]. Please go back and see my posts again.

> If you had not been carried by your patriotism, you would have gone
> back studied material, upgraded the arguments, and come back with
> new found enthusiasm  that you have  a testable way of ascertaining 

        I think it applies to you rather than me !! Please go back and see
        how many points I've brought out and how candidly I had argued and
        compare with your input in this discussion and your manner of
        replies ! In fact, when counter views were presented, I did consider
        and did come up with my views honestly. One of many examples is the
        derivation of the word 'himalaya'. I took into consideration
        what Arun Gupta said.. etc.

> truth. You just go about and claim (based on your distortions) that
> we are not honest enough. But not honest enough to admit that
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> you are a dravidian racist who just writes volumes without making
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> a substantive difference in others appreciation of facts.
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      Narayana, I honestly feel you have to learn some basic civility; and
      I am sorry I have to say this. You had accused me of being a dravidian
      racist - roughly about half a dozen times and I had been patiently
     trying to ask you WHAT are the racist doctrines that I had been advancing,
     WHAT are the statements in my posts that are racially slanted, BUT
     you don't come up with any except to repeat your charge without the
     basic civility. I know of some characters and some organizations
     which believed that telling a lie again and again will make it a
     truth and I suspect you subscribe to this and i am saying this based
     on your record on the net.   
> 
> 
> >> that dravidians were indus people or that dravidians inhabited most
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >     I did NOT claim that Indus people are dravidian BUT most
> >     international researchers think that they probably were.
> >     [ this I mentioned in an earlier posting as well !]
> >     It is my belief that these researchers might be quite right.
> >     I hold the view that the vast majority of people and their culture 
> >     in the indian subcontinent is dravidianoid.
> >     I have NOT heard anything to revise this view.
> >
> 
> Again this bothers me. For example , Mortimer Wheeler who is a very
> respected indus valley explorer does say (very conservatively; that is
> very important) that it appears that there were Dravidonoids impact.
> Whether they were the aboriginals of whose stock the Tamils are, he
> does not allude to. What you do is to go enthusiatically and blow it up.
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> Combined with your racist rhetoric, you think that we are a bunch of
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> fools who will buy your arguments. You also think that we are incapable
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> of independently assessing things from a variety of sources. That shows
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> more your ignorance than our inabilities in systematically understanding
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> arguments.  Often you present argument without a proper elucidation; an
^^^^^^^^^^

    I have to admit that I had been wasting my time trying to argue
    with you ! I think you suffer from some complex :-( If you are
    interested in the questions you have raised, please see J.P. Mallory
    "In Search of the Indo-europeans" Thames and Hudson 1989 (?) and
    you will see that I had NOT been 'blowing up' anything. 

> elucidation that stands the test. In other words, it is not so much that
> we are traped by the porpaganda of Brahmins, it is so much we want you
> to display professionalism.

     If you would be good enough to learn some basic civility and 
     take little pains to understand what is said you will begin to
     see. You have to honestly consider the points.  
> 
> 
> >    Nagas as Tamils, and I think there appears to be much truth in it. 
> 
> In terms of races the Nagas are a distinct race different from 
> the aboriginal stock of which Tamils are one. Some of them settled in AP
> spoke Telugu. In terms of features, you can find even today distinct 
> racial differences between the Telugu speaking people and the aboriginal
> stock.  So your opinions you have not shown why we should consider as 
> Tamils. 

      Nagas are spread all over India. I had already posted info
      about the Tamil Nagas- a list of some 30 ancient tamil poets.
      Please CONSIDER what had been said ( you don't have to agree,
      but consider honestly). 

> I don't know if you have travelled in AP. Go and say that to a Telugu,
> you will immediately find the answer "Poda, Vayi mutechuko poda!". I think
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      Would you be kind enough to explain the FULL meaning of this ?
      It appears to mean " Go (impolite)! Shut up ! Go !" In Tamil
      what you had said would be extremely impolite. I do know 
      Telugu culture is great but I can infer anything at all only
      if you would be kind enough to give me an ACCURATE translation
      of the above so that I can understand what a Telugu would say
      as you confidently state. [ Of course not that I will conclude
     about Telugu culture from one man's statement but I'll take your
     input into account!] 

> I have sadi enough. The reason I asked you to leave out Telugu from your
> discourses is because I don't want my language to be dragged down the 
> dirt the same way you have done for Tamil. Please if you are patriots
> keep it to yourself. You have every liberty to whatever  you want to do with
> your language. Please keep our language out of your discussion.

      I had not dragged Telugu down ! You did not understand the
      context; I urge you to read again !
      [ I suggested in an earlier article to replace X language 
       for Tamil to bring home the
        truth that merely because a particular language-speaking people
        are spread out in a large region and read and discuss
        AMONG themselves in that language, the said language can not 
        be considered a lingua franca of that region without considering
        some statistics. I mentioned to replace Tamil with Telugu. What
        was meant is this is applicable to any language. You did NOT
        seem to understand the basic point and you accuse me of dragging
        Telugu !! And you talk of emotionalism and language-patriotism !!]
> 
> >
> >      
> >      Regards
> >      Selva Selvakumar
> >
> 
> 
> ....kt

       Regards
       Selva Selvakumar

       P.S. Narayana, let us discuss the issues if you like, but what do you
            gain by personally attacking me ? Sure, we can spend our time
            and energy better ! I am sorry if some of my replies
            sounded offensive in this reply, I am trying to reply as 
            best as i could.
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