From: werdna@cco.caltech.edu (Andrew Tong)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Reverse FAQ....
Date: 9 Jan 1993 23:23:44 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

To: p00261@psilink.com
Subject: Re: Reverse FAQ....
Newsgroups: alt.atheism

In alt.atheism you write:

>Why do Christians think they have to preach to us in alt.atheism?  And then
>criticize us for ridiculing Christians?  Do atheists go into other news
>groups and "take on" the believers?  I know you are commanded to spread
>the word, but can't we have a little corner of our own for discussion
>among atheists?  It only seems polite.  

So you're saying that if Christians stopped posting to alt.atheism, then
the atheist participants in the group would stop looking down upon (the
majority of) christians?  That the people in alt.atheism ridicule Christians
only because they are here?  That atheists have a common respect for the ideals
and beliefs of Christians?  I'm sorry, but the major impression that I get from
this group is that atheists believe that Christians are the brainless scourges
of the world, the cause of a majority of the world's (or at least America's)
problems.  Since this group IS public, then this sentiment is BOUND to attract
Christians.  

Anybody keep any statistic as to how many alt.atheism posts are _not_ merely
anti-Christian posts?

And my major point lies in the FAQ itself.  It is geared toward answering
attacks on atheism from Christians.  This fact, by itself, shows that much
of this group is not alt.atheism, but rather alt.atheism_is_better_than_
Christianity.  In light of this context, Christian participation in this
group is almost expected.

BTW: I'm not criticizing the ridiculing of Christians.  We all need to be
ridiculed every now and then, when we start to take ourselves (or this group)
too seirously.  I'm criticizing the illogical and _incorrect_ criticisms/
ridiculing of christianty.  And my whole point is to establish that many
fundamental atheist conceptions of Christianity are simply wrong, illogical,
or inconsistent.

>When I read and post to alt.atheism (except when I am trying to get garbage
>removed) I am interested primarily in what atheists think.  I have seen/met
>a few reasonable believers whose opinion I respect for the other side of a
>discussion and that is nice, but generally speaking I want to know what the
>atheists think.

OK.  I'll keep in mind that maybe many people in this group simply don't want
to hear the other side of the story in alt.atheism.  This probably won't
stop me from posting a completed anti-FAQ, though.   Please excuse my little
bit of impoliteness and/or inconsideration.  But this is something I think is
important.

>constructive.  In nearly any forum in which atheists participate, there is
>always some Christian butting in with his two cents worth.  Do atheists go
>into your churches and shout down your ministers?  (If so, give me times,
>dates, places, and contacts -- I may want to join in :) )

Alt.atheism is hardly a church.  It is a forum for the discussion of atheism
by atheists.  The fact that christians are here can be explained simply by
looking at the content of the FAQ, and by considering the general contempt
and condescention that atheists seem to have toward Christians.  Of course,
there are those Christians who are here trying to convert, and I guess that
_that_ type of "butting in" would be inappropriate.  But I don't see any
problems with a person coming into this group and pointing out a few logical
inconsistencies in atheist thinking.  I'm hoping that you guys don't
discriminate against the logic of a person by the person's religious beliefs.
Logic is logic, right?

>As far as ridiculing Christianity goes, it does not bother me or any other
>atheist I know.  Some of us would like to go beyond that, but from time to
>time it is just necessary because we live in a society where CHRISTIANITY 
>IS RAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS.

Is this still the case?  With prayer banned in schools and even the phrase
"merry Christmas" banned on public buildings (in Maryland, for one...  They
require "season's greetings" or something like that) it seems as if
atheism is officially sanctioned by our society.  Or at least anti-Christianity

>I had the pleasure of living and working in Indonesia which is primarily
>Moslem and watching the Christians (expecially the expatriates) squirm when
>they were no longer the dominant culture.  Quite a pleasure.  Seems they
>can dish it out at home, but can't take it abroad.  What!  No Christmas
>tree in the Cafeteria!  We can't preach in public!  Will someone turn off
>that goddamned loudspeaker in the Mosque!  You mean the stores are closed
>every afternoon for prayer!  Quite a laugh riot for me.  I think I understand
>now why there are so many religious wars.  People get quite pissed off about
>this kind of stuff.

Interesting.  You favor the curtailing of human rights as long as it is the
rights of Christians that are being curtailed?  What human being can take
a violation of human rights?  If you wish to criticize Christians limiting
the rights of people in the west, you must also criticize non-christians 
limiting the rights of Christians anywhere else.

>So altogether I think a few flames of Christianity in this newsgroup is quite
>acceptable and a very mild reaction.  There are other newsgroups for Christians
>to read if they are offended.

Yup, I agree that they're fine.  But they should at _least_ be logically
coherent.  (Much like your previous attack wasn't particularly coherent. I'll
be sure to include it in my Anti-FAQ.  I need all the easy arguments I can
get.)

>I guess the above could be considered a "standard attack on Christianity",
>or perhaps it is non-standard, I don't know.

Oh, FAQ questions don't need to be standard.  That was a slip-up on my part.

But it _does_ seem typical.  A bunch of logical, clear, good points with
a few illogical statements thrown in.

>But if you want another question for your FAQ how about:

>Since you have no testable proof for the existence of God, and we require it 
>for further discussion on or about God, why do Christians assume that a god
>exists in their comments and expect us not to complain?  Don't you understand
>that some common ground has to be found?  And you are entering a newsgroup
>filled with atheists?  Don't you read the FAQ's?

Thanks for the question(s)!


Newsgroups: alt.atheism