HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: NL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:30:17 GMT

In <1992Oct02.164512.824424@locus.com> aardvark@locus.com (Warren Usui) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.010932.16366@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>>How much production should we expect out of a player whom the Dodgers can
>>replace Karros with by picking someone off the waiver wire, signing a minor
>>league free agent, make a very minor deal, etc.  You'd get someone like Gary
>>Redus, most likely.  How much would Karros contribute over such a player?

>My guess is that Karros contributes much more than a person you would get off
>the waiver wire, a minor league free agent or a minor deal.  My perverted
>logic follows:

>	Karros is the best offensive player this year for the Dodgers 
>	(admittedly not that big an accomplishment).  That being the

Really?  Can you say, "Butler, Brett?"
Or "Sharperson, Mike?"
Or even (scarily enough) "Webster, Mitch?"

>	case, it makes sense to replace every other player on the team
>	with an easy pickup player before you replace Karros.  Now I
>	realize that one should expect more offense from first base,
>	but when you look at the Dodgers, you should expect more defense
>	from shortstop.

>	Since the Dodgers have not replaced the entire team with a bunch
>	of Gary Redus'es (may not be a bad idea),  I would assume that
>	Karros is much better than then average player that you could pick
>	up easily.  It may be that the Dodger brain-trust doesn't know what
>	they are doing, but this was the same brain-trust that was successful
>	very recently.  

The problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that the
Dodger front-office is competing with OTHER front offices, not with
anyone intelligent.  To be more successful than these others MIGHT imply
that they were smarter than the other teams, but not that they were smart.

In terms of what you can get for almost nothing:
The Orioles over the last two years have picked up Todd Frowirth, Chito 
Martinez, Mark McLemore, and Mark Parent.  For virtually nothing.  Have
*all* these players been great?  No, but when you don't have ANY talent
on your major league roster, what does it cost you to try one of these guys?

Lance Parrish was available in the middle of the year.
Jerry Browne was available before the year.

Why stick with the losers you've got rather than low-risk gambling?

Pick up someone and platoon him with Karros, if necessary.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Orioles 1993 World Series Champions
niepornt@phoenix.    | Mike Mussina 1992 AL Cy Young Winner
   princeton.edu     | Roland Hemond: SIGN BARRY BONDS!!!!!!!!
Vote Clinton/Gore '92.   Four more months!	  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis)
Subject: Blue Jays Mailing List
Originator: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 00:13:59 GMT

For those of you who missed the earlier announcement, I have set up
a Toronto Blue Jay mailing list.  It is a forum for the discussion of
the team.  Send requests to join the list to jays-request@hivnet.ubc.ca.

psl
Date: Sunday, 27 Sep 1992 20:44:24 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: the franklin big league baseball encyclopedia

i just got the f.b.l.b.e. and have been playing all day with it.  you
can find out some really neat things with this.  (it's one huge mother
handheld baseball database).  sorry if all of you know all this and don't
find any of it interesting.

in 1879, the cincinatti reds pitched 726 innings.  will white pitched 680
of them.

the hall of famer who gave up the most walks per strikeout was ty cobb.
he pitched five innings, gave up two walks, and no strikeouts.  he got
a save, too!  (harry hooper is tied with him, actually; 1 bb/0 so).

the appropriately named jumbo brown was the major leaguer with the most
pounds per inch - 5 foot 6, 295 pounds.  and this guy was a PITCHER.

the yanks lead the al by 624 games, over the tigers.  something to be
happy about for all of us miserable yankee fans.

as for the nl, the giants are 253 games on top.  however, they don't have
the best winning percentage.  that belongs to the hartford blues, with
a .619 winning percentage, 624 games behind the pirates.  the pirates are
actually fourth in terms of winning percentage, behind hartford, the
providence grays (.612, 559 games back) and the nl version of the orioles
(.590, 540.5 gb).

for their first few years, the giants were known as the troy trojans.  could
you imagine the snickers had they not changed their name?

herb washington of the a's managed to score 33 times in his career without
an at bat.  no other major leaguer without an at bat has scored more than
four times.

i could go on and on.  i love this thing.  there are problems with it,
though... it doesn't list walks, strikeouts, or caught stealings for
batters, which i think is pretty cheesy (especially walks, since i'd like
to do stuff with obp).  also, while you can sort by a statistic (e.g.
triples) or by a ratio of statistics (e.g. triples per at bat), and you
can do stuff like "most triples per at bat in a single season by a
non-hall of famer who had at least 37 rbi's" or whatever strange thing
your fluffy little heart desires, there is no "+" or "*" key; thus,
slugging average (among other things) is out of the question.

this is very unfortunate, since slg and obp are the two things i pay the
most attention to usually, but the thingy is still really neat, and really
fun to play with.  i'd recommend it to anyone who wants to blow money.

does anyone know of a similar, but better, database (i.e. one on which
you can do things like slg and obp)? i'd be very interested.
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lead off walks....
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:36:20 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Sep30.155207.5089@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
> In article <lcifu4INNh9c@cronkite> andy@misha.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>>Watching the Sox/Twins game last night,  Hawk & Wimpy (the Sox Commentators/homers)
>>made a comment that a leadoff walk tends to score more often than say a leadoff
>>hit. Probably not as often as a leadoff homerun... :-)
>>
>>I assume that their comment was statistically baseless,  except for the 
>>inning where the leadoff walk happend to score in this game, however,
>>does a stat hound out in net.land have any info on this ?  
> 
> Effect of first event in inning, both leagues, 1984-1991
> 
> Leadoff		Prob of >= 1 run	Avg. number of runs
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> single		.428			.855
> walk			.432			.865
> error			.441			.867
> out			.156			.255
> other			.742		       1.215
>                       

	Okay, time for bad-but-possible-explaination-time:

	The avergae pitcher gives up a hit an inning. If a pitcher gives up a
single to lead off the inning, there is a good chance there won't be another 
hit that inning. OTOH, if the pitcher leads off yeilding a walk, the batting 
team still has that hit they are likely to pick up later in the inning. Since
it is slightly easier to score a run with a hit than without, a walked leadoff
man will score slightly more often. A leadoff hitter reaching on an error has
basically just given his team (or rather, the fielder has) an extra out to play
with, so is even more likely to score.

Brandon Cope
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch)
Subject: Re: BRAVES CLINCH
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:29:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.134638.8319@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson) writes...
>Two straight NL West titles!
> 
>Bring the 'rates on!
> 
>But seriously, take yourself back in time to October 1990. The Braves have
>just finished last again.
> 
>Go up to a policeman in Atlanta and tell him you think the Braves will win
>the next TWO NL West titles, and by OCt 1992 will be one of the dominant
>teams in baseball.

Shoot, October 1990?? How about May 1991 (!).  I happened to be in Atlanta for
an American Chemical Society conference, and took in a Braves game while I was
there.  Went up to the ticket booth 20 minutes before the game, got a box seat
fifteen rows behind the Astros dugout...  The Braves won the game by a score
of something like 7-4.  The only thing that stood out about the game is that
Mike Heath (?) grounded into a 5-4-3 triple play.  But, in any case, in the cab
on the way back to my hotel, the driver asked me about the Braves.  I told him
what I thought at the time, that they had a great young pitching staff but were
probably a year or two away.  As I got out of the cab, he asked me where I was
from.  I responded "Baltimore", and got the response "Oh, that's why you know
so much about baseball--Nobody from Atlanta gives a damn about the Braves..."
The attendance for the night was about 7,500.  And it was one of the most
beautiful nights to see a ball game you could imagine...

Here's betting that the above cab driver was in the stands in September, waving
his official Braves Humongous Non-PC Foam Rubber Tomahawk... :-)

>The policeman would have escorted you to a padded cell......
> 

Well, now that the O's are dead, you've got my support... 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce 'Anyone but Billy' Hasch   hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu   Go O's in '93!!
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:42:12 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu:
>
>	Well, I would consider Bonds worth 5/9ths a run a game more than
>Pendleton (basically just subtract the higher RC/27 from the lower, divide by 9
>(unless Bonds can take up 2 batting slots :-)) and that will be the player's 
>*rough* advantage in runs/game).

Does this mean that, over 150 games, Bonds's team will score 250 more runs
than Pendleton's, all other things being equal?  Or, conversely, that the
Pirates would have scored 250 fewer runs with Pendleton batting in place of
Bonds?  I find that hard to believe.

If you mean "per 27 personal outs" instead of "per team game", then you are
saying that replacing Bonds with John Kruk (similar OBP) would cost 200+ 
runs over the season.  Again, this doesn't make sense.

The problem is that Bonds's RC/27 of 12 really is saying "Barry Bonds would
score 12/9 runs per game and drive in 12/9 more runs per game, if he played
in a lineup of Barry Bondses".  This may be true, but it's mostly irrelevant
to how many runs he'll score and drive in for the Pirates, or how many his
teammates will score and drive in that they wouldn't have without him.

>	If you want, you can play around a little further: subtract the
>batter's RC/27 from the league average, divide by nine, and multiply by the
>number of games he has played. This should give, roughly, how many runs the
>player is worth over the course of the year compared to an *average* player.

No, it won't, for the reasons I gave in the original objection.  You can't
subtract RC/27s and get a meaningful number; it's a nonlinear index.

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Incentive for fourth place?
From: mlbruce@husc11.harvard.edu (Matthew Bruce)
Date: 7 Oct 92 00:18:49 GMT

demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:

>In article <IeoPFS200WBNE19lRL@andrew.cmu.edu> bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas) writes:

> 
>>The final AL East standings were:
>                                   Home  Away    Last10  Stk.
>>Cleveland    76  86  .469  20     41-40 35-46    4-6    L-2
>>New York     76  86  .469  20     41-40 35-46    4-6    L-2
> 
>>    Who is officially fourth? Or is it officially a tie? 
>>    Also, is there any incentive for finishing higher than last place,
>>but not first, other than pride (in short, do the players divide up
>>decreasing amounts of cash)? 

>I think they are both 4th but will have a coin flip to determine
>draft order (I'm not positive about this however... and I hate
>it when other people post misinformation... but the point of
>the followup is:)

>The second place NL teams get $10,000/player and 3d get $3,000/player.
>I think it stops there; don't know if the AL is the same - probably.

In 1989, even after clinching the NL East title at Montreal, the Cubs further
dissed St. Louis by taking 2 of 3 meaningless games to allow the Mets to take
2nd place (& the ten thou) by one game.
As if for retribution, my Cubs have taken 4th (and no money) ever since.
Speaking of division rankings, there is a freakish (if trivial) trend
developing in the NL East:
St.Louis Cardinals: 3rd in '89, 6th in '90, 2nd in '91.
Montreal Expos:     3rd in '90, 6th in '91, 2nd in '92.
Philadelpia:        3rd in '91, 6th in '92, 2nd in '93???
Trends are trends. I don't know where the Cardinals finished in '88, but
if it was 4th, we can extend the trend further: Expos 4th in '89, Phillies
4th (albeit tied w/Cubs) in '90.

>-- 
>Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
>Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
>UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
>La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: BAERGA best AL 2d base ever? 
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:27:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.175048.19355@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>BATTERS       BA   SLG   OBP   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
>BAERGA,C    .309  .454  .350 154 628  88 194 285 29  1 20 103  32  73 10  2 18
>WHITAKER,L  .281  .469  .391 126 437  76 123 205 25  0 19  70  80  45  5  4  9
>KNOBLAUCH,C .301  .360  .385 148 572  99 172 206 18  5  2  54  82  59 32 12  5
>ALOMAR,R    .310  .423  .405 148 558 102 173 236 26  8  7  73  85  51 47  9  5

In this bunch, only Alomar truly stands out.  He doesn't have as much
HR power, but he has a lot of 2B+3B, steals bases extremely well,
walks almost three times as much, and uses fewer outs.  Toss in those
extra ~120 AB of a backup player, and Whitaker doesn't look so hot.
Knoblauch is nice, but really a poor man's Alomar.

I suspect Defense is also in Alomar's favor.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rfd2001@andy.bgsu.edu (Ryan Dickey)
Subject: 1992's MLB Award Winners
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball
Organization: BGSU
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 02:57:04 GMT


My thoughts:

AL MVP: Dennis Eckersley
AL CY YOUNG: Dennis Eckersley
AL Rookie :Kenny Lofton
AL Comeback:Mark McGwire

NL MVP:Barry Bonds
NL CY Young:Tom Glavine
NL Rookie:Eric Karros
NL Comeback:Doug Jones

MLB best hitter:Gary Sheffield
MLB best power hitter:Juan Gonzalez
MLB best pitcher:Roger Clemens
MLB best rel. pitcher:Dennis Eckersley
MLB hard luck award:Jim Abbott
MLB overrated player:Eric Davis
MLB underrated player:Edgar Martinez
Who would you hire for a franchise player:Barry Bonds
Next MLB superstar hitter:Dave Hollins
Next MLB superstar pitcher:Brien Taylor
1993 World Series:Cleveland v.s. Atlanta

I hope I see lots of "Re: 1992's MLB Award Winners" on the post.
--Ryan--
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Playoff Tickets
Keywords: $$
Date: 30 Sep 92 20:57:50 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Sep30.201530.16726@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>That's unfortunate, but not that unusual.  For sales to the general public
>(i.e. not season ticket holders) many teams use a ticket agency these days.
>We bought LCS and World Series tickets for the A's through BASS yesterday,
>when the remaining tickets went on public sale, and paid a $5/order service
>charge (we have more than one order because we wanted to buy more than the
>6 ticket/order limit).  That service charge is not refundable. 

Season ticket holders get theirs in the mail in nice obvious envelopes.
Ours left the last digit off our apartment number so it went to apartment
1 instead of ours. Lucky for us she gave us the tickets.

We got through to BASS to get extra tickets over the weekend(they make
tickets available to season ticket holders first) and like you said you
have to pay the BASS charge.


*Had to pay with money order deleted**
>That's pretty unusual.


For BASS yes, for season ticket holders no. Our tickets from being season
ticket holders had to be paid with a cashiers check or money order. the 
extra ones we bought we charged to a credit card because it was through
BASS.

Not only do you have to pay the $5.90 for Fed Ex charges, but BASS will 
only send the tickets to your home address via Fed Ex. I know I will be
at work when they come, nobody will be in the managers office, and we will
end up having to go to a crowded fed ex office after work to get our
tickets. They would not send it to my work address where we get fed ex
every day.

Oh well at least I got tickets.



Russ Smith
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:31:07 EDT
From: mark rieker <MJR127@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Braves lead 4-0 in fifth.

        That about says it all.  Drabek was just taken out in the fifth.
     oops, wait now it's the sixth.  Braves just turned a nifty double play.
     Patterson is now in for the Pirates.  The Pirates only have 2 hits so far.

        Go   Braves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  GGGGOOOOOOO!!!!!
-------
========================================================================
  Mark Rieker        We are Penn State      Go Atlanta Braves!
                                         1991 National League Champions!!

  mjr127@psuvm.psu.edu ---- ricker@pacific.cmpe.psu.edu

 "Who cares about grades? Who cares about life? Who cares about me?....
  Not me that's for sure!!" --  The Young Ones
From: RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: the mother of all statistical analyses.
Date: 3 Oct 92 00:02:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: vma.92276.190200RVESTERM
 <Oct.2.02.03.12.1992.17813@pilot.njin.net>

yeah gaj, you know it, i'm rolling in the big bucks.  anyway, does anyone
else have them for a more modest price?
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Thursday, 1 Oct 1992 13:41:49 PST
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cy Young?

In article <6926@transfer.stratus.com>, gene@ok.sw.stratus.com (Eugene Loparco)
says:
>
>>>Question:  if Clemens wins, won't that give him more Cys than any other
>>>pitcher in history?
>>
>>I believe Seaver also has 4, if Clemens wins.
>
>No, Seaver had 3.  Carlton beat him out in '81 to earn his fourth (both had
>3 before that year and both had incredible years).

  Who won in '82?  I thought Carlton beat out Andujar...

Tom Hyer
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:41:15 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.144116.1656@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>Well, Jim Abbott, with 2.77 ERA (~1.3 Lower than Jack's) went 7 - 15! So, if
>we assume that the PyT is a reasonable predictor, he doesn't look much worse
>for the Angels than Abbott!

Mike, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Random error.  When you are working with a sample set of size ~35,
*no* statistics are going to be very precise.  Maybe if Jim Abbott
gets the same ERA/run support next year, he will achieve a 8-14
record.  Maybe he'll even get lucky and be 9-13.  And a 9-13 record is
*much* better than a 7-19 record.  That's six fewer games that he has
lost for his team!  (And we know that few players are worth even
*close* to this much.)

-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit)
Subject: Re: god, i'm immature
Reply-To: gds@cs.uct.ac.za
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 10:13:08 GMT

snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>In article <30SEP92.17510458@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>While you're looking through the encyclopedia, can you keep an
>>eye out for palindromic names -- not last names, but a combination
>>of first and last, creating a palindrome.

>While I'm on this subject, I may as well post of the list of reversals:
>that is, where the last name of one player reverses to form the last name
>of another player.  

>Deer/Reed
...
>Redus/Suder

Any baseball player out there called Redus Suder? :-)
-- 
Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: NL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:04:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.043122.24216@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>
>You mentioned that Thomas might have an RC/27 of around 80 in a league like
>the one that Gary's in.  While you might have an RC/27 of around 1.  Assuming
>that is correct.  *Then*, over an entire season, how much is the value of
>Thomas over you?  Assuming both of you made 27 outs, then Thomas would have
>created 80 runs according to my method, while you 1, and thus there is a 79
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL Rookie of Year Award?
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Keywords: 

In article <1dzz02B524u601@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> msw10@nepenthe.as writes:
>
>In article 24516@cs.cornell.edu, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>
>>Consider a player's value
>>as follows:
>>
>>(Offense above average at position) + (Defense above average at position)
>>
>
>This doesn't quite seem to capture what you were talking about above.
>I think it would be something more like:
>
><same first operand> + 
>(Defense above average at position)*(importance of position defensively)

No, I meant what I said.  If you play HoJo instead of Elster, you can
count the number of runs it costs/benefits you on defense.  Similarly
we can measure the offensive difference.  I see no reason to attempt
to phrase this second operand as a product of terms.  All you do is
confuse the matter, adding nothing in terms of flexibility or
understanding.

I agree that a SS who makes only 90% of the chances that an average
player makes will cost his team more runs than a RF who makes only 90%
of those chances.  But this is really an aside to the discussion.  Why
not just assign a number to the net result?  Works equally well.  The
point is, assuming we know his capabilities, we can measure both of
these figures in terms of how many runs opposing teams will score.
Just like we can do on offense.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball