HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Need stats
Keywords: liberal media bullshit
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:58:03 EST
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:

> (1) WLS Talk Radio's "Feedback Phone Question" today is (something like)
>     `would you support legalized concealed carry permits for trained,
>      qualified individuals?'  Currently, results are running about

> (2) One of the more liberal hosts made an offhand comment that the
>     stats show that in areas where this has been implemented, there
>     has been in increase in general shootings, like people in barfights
>     shooting each other, etc.  He cited no source, of course of course,
>     and I think he's full of shit.  Does anyone have any stats (with
>     sources) on this that I can phone in and rub his nose in?

I can't give a proof, but in Florida between 89 and 91 the homicide
rate has gone DOWN 15%, while the overall U.S. rate has gone UP 12%.
Also as far as I know there are over 100,000 people with CCW in
Florida and I only know of one case where a CCW holder used a firearm
in a felonious assault. In that case the guy lied about some of the
information he supplied on his application. You might be interested by
an article by Marion Hammer in the Nov. 91 issue of Guns & Ammo
concerning the success of the Florida CCW program. I also want to
point out the absurdity of the point about bar fights since most
places I know of that allow CCW don't allow it in bars.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Usefulness of weapons (was Re: Galen Disarms)
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 11:45:04 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns

As quoted from <1993Jan20.175450.15631@netcom.com> by ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer):

> geff@iastate.edu (Geff Underwood) writes ...
> >It seems that using a gun is, in general, the _safest_ thing to do when
> >somebody tries to rob or assault you.
> 
> I find it ironic that in Somalia US armed forces are removing guns
> from the population so as to promote stability, safety, and order,
> while in the US gun advocates are using the same line to justify
> owning whatever weapons they wish.

The Marines are in Somalia to promote ORDER, not democracy.  Are those your 
priorities for the US?


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"Read my lips, no new Haitians.  Ack!" - Bill the Prez
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jbs@ranger.rti.org
Subject: Re: George Mitchell quote
Organization: Joe's Bar and Grill
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 14:59:33 GMT

In article <1k38llINNj4q@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh) writes:
>
>Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell (d Me) made his speech
>to the National Abortion RIghts Action Leage (NARAL) on
>THURSDAY, JANUARY 21ST, NOT FRIDAY, JANUARY 22 as first reported.
>A check with CSPAN programming department confirmed that. They 
>also have NO plans of broadcasting that speech again. 
>The Mitchell quote was:
>
>	A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT YOU CANNOT PRACTICE IS NO RIGHT
>	AT ALL; IT'S AN ILLUSION.	
>
>Wonder if he belives that about firearms rights? Hmmmm.

It would be quite honest of him if he did: "You rabid NRA gun nuts think
you have a Constitutional right to own firearms, but that's just an
illusion."

Speaking of abortion, it's nice that NARAL actually has the honesty to use
the term "Abortion" instead of coming up with some bullcrap term like
"anti-choice" (Hi, Perry) that has absoultely nothing to do with what's
being argued.

And don't jump to any conclusions about where I stand on the abortion issue
based on that remark.

  -joe
Organization: Doctoral student, Materials Science and Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:04:59 -0500 
From: Seth Adam Eliot <se08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Arlen Specter


Does anybody know the RKBA stand of Arlen Specter, Republican Senator
from PA.  I think he's pro-gun, but don't have any data.

please E-mail all replies.

thanks
-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"Why am I dangerous?...
                    ...because I'm right!"     -Rush Limbaugh

Seth Eliot                    Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                              Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu       |------------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu |
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb   |      
------------------------------|
From: hhtra@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: "Sniper" with TOM Berenger
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:05:27 GMT
Organization: Chevron


 It's TOM BERENGER.  He was also in PLATOON.

In article <1993Jan22.125735.11279@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com writes:
|> I was watching the Military Industrial Complex channel (A&E) last night
|> and saw an advertisement for a new movie called "Sniper" starring John   
|> Berringer.  The movie starts playing, I believe, Feb. 24th.  Look for it
|> at a theatre near you, and all that ...
|> 
|> One of the voiceovers during the ad said, "One shot, one kill"  Hmm,
|> sounds very familiar; I wonder if material from Carlos Hathcocks' book
|> was used, or if he or any of the men in his book was a consultant.

 It's TOM BERENGER. 

 I doubt it's based on Carlos' book.

 The commercials I've seen make it sound like he's some super-deadly
 marksman sent to kill some South-American-Army-Drug type but misses
 and spends the rest of the movie being chased.

 Travis
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cjp@megatek.com (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Subject: Re: "Sniper" with John Berringer
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 23:29:05 GMT

lvc@cbvox1.att.com writes:
> I was watching the Military Industrial Complex channel (A&E) last night
> and saw an advertisement for a new movie called "Sniper" starring John
> Berringer.  The movie starts playing, I believe, Feb. 24th.  Look for it
> at a theatre near you, and all that ...
> 
> One of the voiceovers during the ad said, "One shot, one kill"  Hmm,
> sounds very familiar; I wonder if material from Carlos Hathcocks' book
> was used, or if he or any of the men in his book was a consultant.
> -- 
> Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com

	I doubt it. There are already promos for it in our area. ["Starts
Friday at a theatre near you!!"] From the ads about it, it seems to be
some political intrigue about "Panamanian free elections" being changed
by "one man, one gunshot BANG". Somehow I suspect it will not portray
snipers in a positive sense.

-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Kennesaw, 1986: Burglary Still Down 85%
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 16:37:53 GMT

In article <LAMBERT.93Jan21012528@nankeen.spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au> lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert) writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Jan 1993 16:50:25 GMT, bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) said:
>
>> / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / karl@dixie.com (Karl Klingman) /  9:10 pm  Jan 12, 1993 /
>
>>>straight on this argument.  Tim is right.  It was not the Kennesaw
>>>gun law that caused the burglary rate to drop in Kennesaw. It was
>>>simply that burglars quite going into peoples houses.
>>>They were afraid they'd get shot. ;)
>
>> Very nicely put.  Lets not forget, laws, seldom if ever, actually DO anything.
>> Seems like this a good case of empowering the people with a good result.
>
>You seem utterly conviced that burglaries fell in Kennesaw.  Why?  UCR
>data show no reduction.  Can you tell us what evidence convinced you?
>
>Tim

I'd say the major reason I doubt the UCR is that the Kennesaw police, 
like many small US police departments, tend to send in UCR reports only 
for *solved* cases when they send in reports at all. There's only one
records clerk, and she doubles as dayside dispatcher. The chief knows
what his officers have been doing, but Federal paperwork is very low
on his priority list for manhour assignment. Thus it's quite likely
that there are cases where an officer took a report of a break in, but
never solved the case, and the paperwork got stuck in a folder somewhere
in his desk and never made the UCR summary. It's only when a case goes
to court that the volumes of paperwork are rounded up and filed properly.
At least that's my experience with other small Georgia police departments.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: nlund@kodak.com
Subject: Re: TIME is on the ropes, asks for forgive
Summary: Boycott them.
Originator: lund@viper
Organization: US Militia (That's _me_!)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 10:11:25 GMT

Well, until TIME magazine comes out and officially and publicly states that
they are again interested in accurate journalism when it comes to the gun
control issue, I have decided to participate in the boycott.

If you are like minded, call TIME at: 1-800-541-2000

                    and TIME LIFE at: 1-800-545-2465

(Hours as stated by recordings during the off hours.)

If you call TIME LIFE, tell them what products you are interested in but
will not buy.  Their _Classic Rock_ and _Great Composers_ CD collections
are big ticket items.  There are _many_ products being advertised by them
on TV these days.  Every time you see an ad, pick up the phone and vote
again.  Tell them that you will not be buying their _True Crime_ book
series.  Or their home repair series.  Or their animal survival series.
Jangle that phone, tie it up, and run up their bills.

Tell them "Due to the fact that Time magazine has openly stated that they
are not concerned with accurate journalism when it comes to the gun control
issue, I have decided to participate in the boycott against Time magazine
and Time Life, and will no longer buy [ insert items ]."
Or words to that effect.

Your vote counts.  Vote often.

These phone numbers were very easy to find, BTW.  When I saw an ad on TV,
I simply called the 1-800 number, stated my participation in the boycott,
and received the consumer relations 1-800 for my trouble.  Which I then
promptly called.

This strategy should work for any other company out there with an 800 number.
Post your findings, and amplify your efforts.


Disclaimer:  I speak for myself.

Nate.
nlund@kodak.com

"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the 
peoples' liberty's teeth." --- George Washington

"And I say, that without firearms, the Constitution won't be worth the paper
it's printed on.  Heck, our government hardly pays much attention to it as
it is."  --- me
From: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Washington Post writes 2 neutral stories in a row!
Date: 28 Jan 93 14:31:35 GMT
Reply-To: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Organization: The Next Challenge, Fairfax, Va.


Tuesday and Wednsday's Post had 2 neutral gun-control stories in two
days in the Metro section's first page.  I'll post them as soon as
I've typed them in.

Story I've heard that may explain it:

G Gordon Liddy, in his afternoon radio show here, has been regularly
dumping on the Post ("Washington's Alternative Newspaper") since his
show started.  He's been hammering on them especially recently due to
their pro-gun-control stance.

It's having an effect.  Two distributors have called him, begging
Liddy to lay off, as people have been dropping subscriptions and
street sales.  "It's ruining me!" one of them claimed.

Needless to say, Liddy has no sympathy.  "Start carrying the Times."

Frank Ney N4ZHG EMT-A  LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA "M-O-U-S-E"
Commandant and Acting President, Northern Virginia Free Militia
Send e-mail for an application and more information
----------------------------------------------------------------
"...I am opposed to all attempts to license or restrict the arming of
individuals...I consider such laws a violation of civil liberty, 
subversive of democratic political institutions, and self-defeating
in their purpose."
        - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning "Red Planet"
-- 
The Next Challenge - Public Access Unix in Northern Va. - Washington D.C.
703-803-0391 To log in for trial and account info.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: urbin@interlan.interlan.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: Re: Clinton bans imports of guns&ammo already
Organization: Racal-Datacom
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:37:28 GMT

In article <1k0i70INNnl2@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh) writes:
>At this weekend's gun show, a dealer I talked to who sells AKS's
>claimed that on Friday the US State Department refused to issue
>whatever permits (Form 6?) is required; the dealer claimed that
>all firearm and ammo importing has stopped as of Friday (Jan 22).
>I have no idea if this is true, but I suggest a flood of phone 
>calls to the Capitol switchboard (to call congressmen and senators
>) starting at 0900 EST Monday Jan 25th.
>It looks like the government of the United States is ready to 
>declare war on the citizens of same who insist on exercising 
>certain constitutionally guaranteed rights.
   Maybe putting off buying that SKS wasn't such a bad idea.  The dirt cheap 
ammo for it won't be so cheap before long.  I better start pricing rifles 
that use good `American' rounds.

>
>Also, BTW, someone last week or over the weekend asked for the 
>source of the quote
>   "A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT THAT CANNOT BE PRACTICED IS NO RIGHT
>AT ALL; IT'S AN ILLUSION."
>
>That little gem came to us from Senate Majority LEader George
>Mitchell (D Me), who used the line in a speech to the
>National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) on Friday
>afternoon Jan 22. CSPAN was running the speech and I remembered
>someone wanting it.
    Thanks, I'm the one who asked for it.  Next question:  What is George 
Mitchell's NRA/GOA rating?  

Mark Urbin  Racal-Datacom  Boxborough, MA   urbin@interlan.interlan.com   
These opinions are mine.  No one else will admit to them.	          
Most people agree that the government is largely sluggish and ineffective.
Then why do most people demand that it do everything for them?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:41:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Destructive and Counter-productive Whining
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

>>I've been told on a couple of occasions that CCRKBA is mainly just a
>>fund raising organization for the SAF.
>
>It isn't, but why would that be wrong even if it was true?

Because it is the goal of most 'fund raising organizations' to pad their 
own pockets.  As I said in my earlier post, most fund raising organizations
will take 90% or more of the money they raise leaving very little for 
their 'cause.'  Thus, if you donate 100.00 to what you think is the cause
of preserving our Second Amendment rights, as much as $90.00 of it may go 
the the fund raising organization.  $100.00 donated to the ILA will ALL to 
to your cause.  You figure out which way is best for you.  It's your 
money.

In light of some of the responses, I'm not claiming that CCRKBA is 
in this category.  I've speculated that it MAY be and one of the responses
claimed it isn't, but I still don't know how that organization works or 
how it's budget breaks down. but not much more.  In general however, it is 
wise to be very skeptical of fund raising organizations.

Rick.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Virginia's proposed gun-a-month law
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:59:36 GMT

In article <8110313@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> post@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David
Post) writes:

   When are they going to fix the drivers licensing system such that you need
   to show residency?

I hope everyone realizes that this is a red herring in Virginia.

We have an instant check system here.  Unless I am badly mistaken, it
checks residency as well as for felony convictions.  The driver's
license bunkum is just that.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Organization: Doctoral student, Materials Science and Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 22:13:06 -0500 
From: Seth Adam Eliot <se08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: references needed

Hi, I'm composing a letter and have found much useful info in the RKBA
archives.  Unfortunately, many of the entries there are poorly
referenced. 
I need references for the following:

    National Institute of Justice study of ten state  prisons across the
country  found that 39% of the felons  surveyed had aborted at  least
            one crime because they believed that the intended victim was
            armed., and 57% agreed that "most criminals are more worried
            about meeting an  armed victim than  they are about  running
            into the police."
 -----------referenced to in the 12/92 issue of Handguns magazine, Gun
Rights column.  Need date, report title, publisher, etc

            more  women  are  arming  themselves  with
            defensive handguns, 
--------------I have no data for this, does anybody have any good references

                 Retail sales is not a significant contribution to  the
            number of handguns  used by criminals  (Profs. James  Wright
            and Peter  Rossi of the  University of Massachusetts).   
----------------report title, date, publisher?

           The  Police    Foundation's  "Firearm  Abuse"
            (1977) found that only  2.1 percent of  handguns  traced  to
            all crime were less than a  month old. And a month is  twice
            as long as any state's waiting period.
-------------what exactly is the Police Foundation? what is "Firearm
Abuse," a book, a report?   

            a study  of  waiting
            periods by professors Joseph P.  Magaddino and  Marshall  H.
            Medoff of California  State University at  Long Beach  found
            them to   be totally useless  in curbing crime.   
------------Report title, date, publisher?

If you know of someone who might know these things, but doesn't read
this board, please forward them a copy of this msg.

please E-mail replies to me.

Thanks for the help

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"Why am I dangerous?...
                    ...because I'm right!"     -Rush Limbaugh

Seth Eliot                    Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                              Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu       |------------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu |
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb   |      
------------------------------|
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: "Sniper" with John Berringer
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:03:45 GMT

lvc@cbvox1.att.com writes:

>I was watching the Military Industrial Complex channel (A&E) last night
>and saw an advertisement for a new movie called "Sniper" starring John
>Berringer.  The movie starts playing, I believe, Feb. 24th.  Look for it
>at a theatre near you, and all that ...
>One of the voiceovers during the ad said, "One shot, one kill"  Hmm,
>sounds very familiar; I wonder if material from Carlos Hathcocks' book
>was used, or if he or any of the men in his book was a consultant.
>Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com

  Yup, I saw it too. I especially took note when I saw (what appears to be) a
Remington PSS complete with Leupold 3.5x10 Police scope! You don't get a clear
view of it, but that H&S stock kinda sticks out.
  Then again, I could be wrong.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Subject: Re: Talk Show Poll Results
Organization: Dell Computer Co
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 05:17:56 GMT

pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:

>In article <jrh.2b686ce8-e@mustang.dell.com> jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard) writes:
>>Even so, wouldn't you feel much better if this person pointing a gun at you
>>knew which end of the gun the bullet comes out of

>Why do I care if the person pointing a gun at me knows which end of the
>gun the bullet comes out of? 

It's clear that after your editing job, you forgot what the context was
completely.  The person in this scenario was not a criminal, but simply a
hypothetical college student with a concealed carry permit, little experience,
and a bit of fear at the way this country is turning into a safe haven for
criminals.  

>Is this like training criminals to make sure they hit what they are aiming at?

No, it's like training legally carrying citizens so as to be able to better
defend themselves while posing the least threat of accidental misuse of
firearms.

>-- 
>My opinions are my own.

clearly.

-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, 
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H. L. Mencken
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Zoey is History! :)
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT
Distribution: US
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 07:10:11 GMT


I just heard on the radio that, Zoey Baird has withdrawn her name from
further consideration for attourney general. :) Good news for pro RKBA fans.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: Usefulness of weapons (was Re: Galen Disarms)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 22:32:25 GMT
Organization: N/I

In article <1993Jan20.175450.15631@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
[ ... ]
>I find it ironic that in Somalia US armed forces are removing guns
>from the population so as to promote stability, safety, and order,

U.S. armed forces are removing guns from the populace
in Somalia to prevent sniping at junketing Congressmen.
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Subject: Gun Control: White Man's Law
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:26:17 GMT


Some time ago, some kind soul posted


"Gun Control: White Man's Law
 by William R. Tonso

 Gun Control and American Blacks
 By Raymond G. Kessler"

and other articles on the topic
of gun control's racist history.

I didn't seem to have gotten the whole
series of posts. 

Is there someone outthere with the whole series.

Note:  I don't have ftp access due to security measures.

Thanks


-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (I don't speak for Motorola)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns