HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Date: 22 Aug 92 23:42:29 GMT
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore

In article <1992Aug22.035524.10523@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
(Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Aug22.034239.4920@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
>(Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>
>>Cage was about employing different philosophies. He would be the last
>>person in the world to insist on a value-free aproach. His zen-ism is
>>the essence of his music.
>
>Care to explain that?  I'm not sure that all that much of Cage's music
>was really Zen-influenced.  4'33", perhaps, and some other works from
>the 50's, but remember that we're talking about well over half a century
>of music.
>
4'33" dates from the early 50's.  I would not be surprised if it preceded the
period during which Cage and Cunningham attended Suzuki's lectures at Columbia.
Pritchett is probably the best source for such facts.  However, I believe his
4'33" paper discusses the influence of at least one Indian philosopher.  (My
copy is at the office, and I am at home.)  Nevertheless, I do not think it
would be appropriate to describe 4'33" as "Zen-influenced."

I think I basically agree with your original statement that Cage was interested
in removing philosophy from music.  The impact of philosophy on Cage's life had
to do with the PROCESS of composition, which can never be confused with the
resulting PRODUCT (which seems to be what Diarmuid is doing).  Removing the
decision-making ego from the act of composition is clearly a philosophical
position;  and much of Cage's work may be viewed as different approaches to
how he could take that position.  My personal feeling is that this is a healthy
reaction to a period during which music was becoming more and more heavily
laden with compositions which were ABOUT philosophical positions (Wagner and
Strauss being the most outstanding examples).
>
>Wittgenstein, on the other hand....no, wait. That was his brother.
>
How much of Wittgenstein's work was published when Cage was experimenting with
approaches to composition.  I am not sure any of it was available during his
percussion days.  I think the foundations of Cage's philosophy (and what he
chose to do with it) were laid by the time Wittgenstein started receiving
serious reading.  Ironically, by the time of the Norton Lectures, someone
pointed out a possible connection to him;  so he asked a friend to provide
him with some appropriate passages from Wittgenstein which were incorporated
as part of the composition of those lectures.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:20:24 GMT

In article <Bt3xMp.xL@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.143043.2010@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>>In article <1992Aug12.225314.9339@dgbt.doc.ca>, ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>>Long live John Cage.
>
>>Hear, hear!! And long live the small, brave, [fill in your own superlative]
>>record companies who produce the discs of Cage's music and let us _decide
>>for ourselves_ was to his greatness. (Usual disclaimers).
>
>Small?  Probably.  Brave?  Come on.  
>

Brave?  Obviously.  Since his music is hardly main stream, the companies
who spend the money to record it are indeed brave as they risk losing
rather than recovering their investment.

>I'm all for letting people think whatever they want about Cage, and I happen 
>to think he produced garbage, and I am contempuous of him and of those
					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>pretentious "art lovers" who fawn at his feet (or grave as it were).  

Why?  Do you know him?  [Or anyone (or everyone) who enjoys his 
music for that matter?]   You certainly can dislike his music, but
why does that translate into contempt for the man.  From all indications
he didn't seem contemptible.  (It's easier to show the opposite of the
folly you make here.  Wagner's music is marvellous, but his views
make the man repugnant.)

>As >someone who has done more to destroy good music than 
			      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>almost anyone else this century, 

Cage composed music.  Are you saying that, because John Cage composed, 
other music was destroyed.  Beethoven's music still exists.  
As does Mozart's, Verdi's, Bach's, etc. etc.  I don't know how if
anything Cage did has changed our interpretation of older music.
I sorta doubt it though.  Thus, music has survived John Cage.

I'm unfamiliar with his abilities as a performer?  Did he ever perform
works other than his own?  Did he give a pathetic performance of 
some old masterpiece?  Is this how John Cage destroyed music?

Or is his music parasitically displacing other music.  Does his
music monopolize classical music radio?  (In an effort to compete
with the new All-Elvis format of WMJB, WKXY has instituded the
new All-Cage format.)  But, maybe Cage pieces are supplanting
the old classics in the concert hall.  Is that it?

> I would hope to see most music lovers applaud his passing.

This is sick.  


John D.
From: tomanix@sintra.xip.dec.com (Antonio Rodrigues)
Subject: Kapsberger
Reply-To: tomanix@sintra.xip.dec.com (Antonio Rodrigues)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:09:35 GMT



 I'm looking for any information about Kapsberger recordings.

 The only thing I have is a 'Harmonia Mundi' sampler with a piece for lute 
 'Tocatta Arpeggiata' that I like very much.

  thanks,
 tomanix
From: aim@ocf.berkeley.edu (Ali Mirza)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Recommendations for a beginner
Date: 19 Aug 1992 23:04:30 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

The title says it all. I'm interested in building a classical music collection
of the most memorable pieces. Unfortunately, while I know which composers I
like, I don't have the money to invest in all their works. If any of you 
know of a list of the most famous works, could you please let me know how to
get it? Please feeel free to send me your personnal recommendations.
Thanks
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 05:26:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.041813.8488@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>: In article <1992Aug23.030649.6798@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>: 'cause it made a nicer thud when it hit the floor.

>: Next?

>drumm roll and cymbal crash...

Thankyouthankyouthankyou ladies and germs.  Take my wife.  Please.

>Why are we both at work on a Sunday?

Who's at work?  Besides, it was Sat. here when I posted, the GMT-based
date notwithstanding.

Roger
From: menoche@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Charles Paul Menoche)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: John Cage is dead 8/12/92
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:18:49 GMT
Reply-To: menoche@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Charles Paul Menoche)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: menoche@pooh.cc.utexas.edu

From page A26 of the Austin American Statesman-August 13, compiled
from News Services

Avant-garde writer, composer John Cage dies

John Cage, a prolific and influential American composer, writer and
philosopher who was a driving force in the world of avant-garde music,
art and dance, died Wednesday of a stroke at age 79.  In a career that
began in the 1930s, Cage composed hundreds of works, which often defied
the conventional rules of harmony and were composed using what he called
"chance" processes.  His 1939 _The Imaginary Landscape No. 1_ is considered
by some to be the first electronic composition.  IN 1982, France gave him
its highest honor for contribution to cultural life, Commandeur de l'Ordre
des Arts et des Lettres.
From: ladasky@netcom.com (John J. Ladasky II)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: When is close close enough for just intonation
Keywords: intonation, intervals
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:52:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
[deleted Hz. vs. cents discussion]
>
>Secondly, I believe one has to evaluate this issue from "psychoacoustical
>waters" because there are a number of complicating factors that the
>ear and brain introduce. For example, why is it that one study showed
>that people were able to identify the pitch of low frequency sounds
>of duration *less than 1 wavelength*? Why is it that I can hear the
>change in sonority caused by a beat when the duration of the tones are
>less than a quarter of the wavelength of the beat (i.e. 2 notes beating
>at 1 hertz played for .25 seconds)? Clearly, the brain identifies pitch
>in different ways than a digital tuner. Granted, your "Heisenberg"
>principle of pitch uncertainty says that it can only be "right" within
>a certain time-dependent range, but that could mean a lot of things in
>a musical context.

	In both of these cases, I would want to know the harmonic content of
the signals that were used for the experiments.  If the timbres beating
against each other consisted of only one frequency, then I find this to be
extremely interesting.  However, if the timbres contain any overtones, then 
the beats between the overtones could be responsible for the timbre-shifting
effect.  Likewise, one may not be identifying the pitch of a low-frequency
sound my listening to its fundamental, but rather by listening to its over-
tones and computing the pitch by extrapolation.


-- 
=============================================================================
 John J. Ladasky II ("ii")				(ladasky@netcom.COM)

	"Great composers do not borrow - they steal."  - Igor Stravinsky

	(Actually, Picasso said it first, in reference to painting - but
		   Stravinsky has claimed it as his own! :^)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	      Disclaimer : My employer?  Internet?  Yeah, right!
=============================================================================
From: rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Prokofiev 5th with Ozawa on DG - a review
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:21:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <19AUG199208160673@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025)) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.000945.19280@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle) writes...
>>Deutsche Grammophon, Seiji Ozawa and the Berlin Philharmonic are in
>>the middle of their projected cycle of Prokofiev's complete symphonies. 
>>The first release (435 027), which coupled the Second and Seventh
>>Symphonies, was distinctly successful.  The present CD (435 029),
>>which couples the famous Fifth with the symphonic suite from
>>"Lieutenant Kije," is less clearly a winner, but it still has many
>>attractive points. 
>
>
>How would you compare with this one with Roshdestvensky and Karajan recordings?
>
>
>Ron

I'm not familiar with Rozhdestvensky's, but I would say it's comparable to
Karajan's in terms of polish, and somewhat like his in terms of spirit too,
but Karajan is tougher.  'though I don't care much for Herbie generally,
I think his recording is a great one, and I don't think I can say the same
for Seiji's.

--
****************************************   Raymond S. Tuttle
"Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod,"       University of Rochester
but it's nothing to get depressed about!   (still with his two little 
****************************************   white mice).
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
Date: Saturday, 22 Aug 1992 07:05:49 EST
From: Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
 <qgRsPB3w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> <BtCst1.B7q@quake.sylmar.ca.us>

The irrepressible Bryan Yoder writes:
Are you telling me that sitting in silence for 4'33" is something other
than boring?  I can't imagine anything less exciting.

I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn that I actually _performed_
_4'33'',_ not once, but several times over the last few years (the
most recent one at an AIDS benefit -- with trombone in hand).  Listening
and performing the piece actually can be extremely exciting, provided
the people who are skeptical get it all out of their system in the
first minute or so.  For my part, I can assure you the last thirty
seconds or so gives me the same rush I get in the closing bars of
any music -- Couperin, Franck, or Glass.  It was more exciting than
reading your posts, for instance.

Bob
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: pointers to piano recordings sought
From: Marco Simionato <simion@iveuncc.unive.it>
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:28:22 +0100
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Venezia
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1a2Lines: 29

I would like any pointers to available CD editions of the following
performances:

Rachmaninov, Piano Sonata n.2
       S.Richter (ever made at all?)
	   W.Horowitz: is there any recording before that made in 1980

Rachmaninov, Estudes-Tableaux  (Richter, Horowitz and Lazar Berman)

Rachmaninov, Preludes  (Richter, Horowitz and Berman)

Prokoviev, Piano concerto n.3 (Emil Gilels)

Schumann, Sonata n.3 op.14 ("Concert sans orchestre") Horowitz: recording
          earlier than the 1980 one
		  
Liszt, Sonata  (Lazar Berman)

Liszt, Annee de Pelegrinage, cpte., (Lazar Berman was DG)

Scrjabin, Sonatas, Preludes, Etudes (Richter and Berman)


I would also appreciate pointers to so-called "non-official" available
recordings of live performances by Gilels, Richter and Pollini.

Thanks.

Marco Simionato
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: Wanted: A crash course in composer's styles
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:33:58 GMT

bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:

>Could anyone here suggest a run-down on some of the composers with
>obvious stylistic 'trademarks' that would tend to appear in their work
>more often than in other pieces?  I mean, when you hear a classical
>piece and say 'that sounds like Brahms', what is it about the piece
>that tips you off that Brahms wrote it (if you didn't already know)?

Sadness, greyness, heaviness, turgidity... :-) :-) Actually, Brahms is
one of my favorite composers.  (There have always been classical-music
listeners who haven't cared for Brahms.  Their loss.  In one of the
most incomprehensible musical judgments of all time, some 19th-century
person wrote: "Brahms had everything but talent.")  One can point out
various features of his style (which of course evolved over time),
e.g., a highly contrapuntal texture with flawless counterpoint and
frequent use of crossrhythms (like 3 against 2 or hemiola), but after
you become familiar with his music you recognize his style somewhat in
the way one recognizes a face, without much conscious analysis.

When listeners first become acquainted with a style they often
complain that "it all sounds alike".  (You hear this, for example,
from persons brought up on 19th-century music who discover Haydn and
Mozart late in life.)  The reason is that the common stylistic
features are so prominent in their awareness at this point, and they
do not yet understand the style well enough to understand how it makes
its points and what gives each piece its individuality.  In the same
way, Westerners have thought "All Chinese people look alike", until
they get to know some individual Chinese persons.  The *Chinese* don't
think they all look alike.

>Just curious, and wanting to impress some people by making myself look
>educated.  ;)

One way to do that is to *be* educated, and there are no shortcuts
here.  Listen to a lot of music in the various stylistic periods and
by the various composers, pay attention to what you hear (this is
crucial), and read some good books that discuss the various styles and
the composers' music.  A good one to start with is Charles Rosen's THE
CLASSICAL STYLE, which is primarily about Haydn, Mozart, and
Beethoven.  See in particular the early chapters about the classical
style in general.

Richard Carnes
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "Ms. Johanna Wise" <jmwise@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Stravinsky
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:15:12 GMT


can somebody possibly tell me if there are any books
by Stravinksy? I'm looking for the theoretical sorts...

thanks for any help.
J.
From: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Haus Der Luge)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: John Cage
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 10:24:45 CST
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

 
Would anybody here be able to help me contact John Cage ???
 
As well ... could anybody recommend any CD's of his works in
particular?  I have some of the "JOHN CAGE EDITION" titles, but
that's it.
 
I think that "M" and "Silence" were brilliant (just had to say that).
 
Haus der Luge - Winnipeg Manitoba
 

;--- (Haus Der Luge) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Die Meistersinger
From: Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Saturday, 15 Aug 1992 19:52:59 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

I find it amazing that fifteen years has passed since the last major recording
of Meistersinger. I doubt that the work has lost its appeal. Has it become
uncastable?

It certainly has been noticeably absent from the Met's repertory. The coming
season's new production has bizarre casting -- Jon Conrad's fantasy David is
cast as Walther! (Francisco Araiza) I know that Weikl performs Sachs world-over
but I expect he will be seriously overparted. I assume that James Morris will
learn the part one day. The good news is the casting of Hermann Prey as Kothner
(I wonder what his Beckmesser would be like? Better than Fischer-Dieskaus?)
From: walden@misty.boeing.com (Bill Walden)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Voice questions
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:20:06 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support

Gang,

  The good news - I got into the chorus of a local production of the opera
  Pagliacci (sp? Left my score at home).

  The bad news - I'm usually a bass-baritone (D below staff, F above in bass
   clef), and I'm singing 2nd *tenor* (lots of G's, esp. in the going to 
   vespers sequence).

  My question for the net - how should I approach the high notes? I've been
   able to go into head voice - but we need volume (the reason I'm singing
   this part). Any hints on hitting the top of your range (I crack like an
   egg on an A) at full voice or decent volume without developing nodes?
   Any and all suggestions will be appreciated (I can't quit now - not if
   I want to ever do anything local again :) ). Please respond via e-mail
   as our system flushes notes rapidly... :(

                   Thanks in advance,
                         Bill

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%  Boeing Computer Services     %         wbw@carter.ca.boeing.com  %
%  Seattle, WA                  %     or  walden@misty.ca.boeing.com%
%  I do NOT speak for Boeing!   %     or  uunet!bcstec!misty!walden %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:01:19 GMT

In article <Bt3xMp.xL@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.143043.2010@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>>In article <1992Aug12.225314.9339@dgbt.doc.ca>, ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>>Long live John Cage.
>
>>Hear, hear!! And long live the small, brave, [fill in your own superlative]
>>record companies who produce the discs of Cage's music and let us _decide
>>for ourselves_ was to his greatness. (Usual disclaimers).

>Small?  Probably.  Brave?  Come on.  

Yes, brave.  

>I'm all for letting people think whatever they want about Cage, and I happen 
>to think he produced garbage, and I am contempuous of him and of those
>pretentious "art lovers" who fawn at his feet (or grave as it were).  As 
>someone who has done more to destroy good music than almost anyone else
>this century, I would hope to see most music lovers applaud his passing.

Are you boasting, Brian, or is that just a dangling participle?

Surely you meant to say that *Cage*, and not you, had done more to
destroy...

Of course, you've never demonstrated -- despite repeated requests -- that
Cage ever "destroyed" *any* music, good or bad.  Your claim is as
preposterous now as it was the first time you made it.

Not that you know anything about John Cage; as far as I know, you can
only name two pieces by him, and have made numerous incorrect statements
about both.  Nor do you know anything about his admirers; who, pray
tell, has "fawned at his feet"?  If you mean, studied the man's music
and writings, listened to it, watched Merce Cunningham's dances, then
some of us are guilty.  But I've never heard of anyone calling that
"fawning."  

But now you have gone even further in exposing your nature: you've told
us you're actually happy the man is dead.  For someone who has accused
others of ad hominem argument, you have just made the ultimate one, and
the most disgusting one.  You are a pathetic, sniveling jerk, a coward
who hasn't the guts to respond to queries that would demonstrate his
ignorance, a toad who rejoices in the death of peaceful human beings he
thought he disagreed with, while knowing nothing about the people he so
twistedly hates.

What a miserable existence you must lead.

Roger
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wedding music suggestions?
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:48:11 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Aug16.052309.15315@oct17.dfe.dec.com> chaban@fortsc.enet.dec.com (Ed Chaban) writes:
>
>My new wife bought the "Martha Stewart Wedding Planner" (available at
>K-Mart ;-))  For all the triteness, there are a number of good suggestions
>in there.  We Used "Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring" as a prelude and the infamous
>Lohengrin Wedding March as a processional and Purcell's Trumpet Tune in D as
>a postlude.  All of which were rendered on a tracker organ!

I will never understand the use of the Lohengrin Wedding March.  As far
as I can tell, this is only used in the US (people in Germany used to
get a chuckle when seeing it in an American movie); and it's hopelessly
insappropriate as soon as you know the source.

After all, a) it's a recessional, and b) he leaves her almost
immediately.

Oh, and the Mendelssohn's a recessional, too.  

I guess there's just something about life imitating art imitating life
that people can't resist.  (I've even heard the two pieces performed in a
sort of medley, with harmonic fumfering in between, at a wedding in a
Conservative Jewish synagogue.  On the organ.)


Roger