From: weaver@jetsun.weitek.COM (Michael Gordon Weaver)
Subject: Re: Attention Advice Givers (ie HELP)
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 23:54:19 GMT

In article <10NOV199223490909@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov> casey@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov (Sean Casey GSFC (301)286-4558) writes:
[ context deleted ]
>.... My points were two fold a) relationships are strategy
>(they require action) b) female are not likely to have this view point since 
>they don't do their fair share of asking. (See alt.personals.nice - it's full
>of guys wining about 'how come I always have to do the asking', etc. or
>'why don't women ask me out'. 
>
I think you are mistaken here. Yes, most women have little experience 
asking out men. And yes, this means they lack some perspective on the
process. But I think if anything that women are more likely to set 
goals for a relationship. But it does seem to be true that many women
see the earliest stages of a relationship (say, before it is clear that 
you are going to be seeing each other regularly) as 'just happening', and 
take a passive role until the relationship gets going.  After that, it
seems to me the same women take a more active role than their
partners.

>                               Case in point...I had been trying to work
>my charm on some 'lovely' gal who (as I later found out) had no problem
>finding dates. That is, she had no problem because guys were always asking
>HER out! 
>
If you had no trouble gettng dates because women were always asking you
out, would you even bother to ask out other women?

>         After I realized this relationship  wasn't going anywhere (i.e. 
>she dumped me - get those violins outa here), I just bagged it. After that 
>we were just friends. Anyway, work started piling up, and I ended up spending 
>most of the summer in lab working (in part because I didn't feel like dealing
>with this romance thing). I was working every day of the week for long hours.
>During the summer we talked, I told how busy I was, she told me how
>she was doing (I didn't really want to know). At the end of the summer, we 
>had dinner. It was my birthday. Anyway, in the car on the way back she asked me
>if I was dating! My first response was, 'Is she crazy, when the hell am I
>going to have time to find gal to date', then I thought, 'hmmm...maybe
>she means something else'. I said 'no, but why?' (hoping for some
>encouragement). To which we replied something like, 'oh, just asking'.
>I couldn't believe it! Give me a break!
>
Maybe there is a point to all those jokes about a man/woman dictionary. 
She has no trouble finding dates, so 'are you dating' translates to 
'are you committed to someone else?', rather than 'are you spending
too much time by yourself?'.  You put her on the spot by asking her why
she asked. It sounds like you really weren't interested in dating her,
but if you had bitten your tongue and asked her if she was dating, 
she might have gotten around to suggesting that the two of you 
get together and do something. Of course, she would then expect
you to invite her on the date she had just suggested, but I guess
that gets back to the point. If you are going to be in a relationship
with someone, you are going to have to get used to dealing with what
you see as their shortcomings.

>It was then that I can up with this theory that women don't have a clue what
>it takes to find a date! Not a clue. And, after reading some of the advice
>I've seen on the net, it serves only to reinforce my convictions. Sure it take
>'two to tango', but someone (mostly the men) has to do the asking. And even
>then it takes 'careful planning and strategy' to keep them going. Anyone who
>think it's not a big game to find a SO is sadly mistaken.
>
If you have danced a tango (I have), you might remember that the man
always asks the woman to dance, *and* the man always decides the steps,
*and* the man always decides the direction. Sort of like your typical
first date.  "It takes two to tango" means that even though you may do
everything right, you can't make up for your partner's shortcomings.
Still, if you think traditional roles are bad for men, think of how
they are for women, always waiting, and having to decide between trying
to make the best of whoever is around at the time or waiting for
someone better.

Michael.