From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:33:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.160012.29170@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha) writes:
>In article <Brp97A.Drx@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>
>>It is hard to actually prove Winfield puts 100% effort into the game and Bell
>>didn't but if you watch Winfield he is always having a good time and obviously
>>enjoys what he is doing and Bell didn't always show this.  I think that in
>>any job that you can perform better if you are enjoying what you do.  Bell
>>speaking out too openly is his main problem.  By doing this he got the fans
>>booing him which creates a bad atmosphere on the field for both himself and
>>the team.
>
>It *is* possible to have a good time playing baseball and not put 100% effort
>out.  Is it possible that Winfield is thinking "Geez I'm getting $2.2mil for
>swinging a bat, and getting myself into the Hall of Fame"? Now, don't get
>me wrong, I've always *liked* Dave, but "smiling" and "having a good time" 
>don't translate into 100% effort. 

Getting bunt singles and stealing bases by a 40 year old sounds like a
good effort to me.  Having a good time also creates a good atmosphere in
the clubhouse and this can create better performances on the field than
if he was not having fun.
 
>
>And speaking of George, he smiled a lot at games, and early in his career
>was very good with the fans.  But let me ask you a question.  If the fans
>were booing you, would you be happy playing where you weren't wanted? Would
>you want to sign autographs for the same people who were abusing you
>during the game?  I know I wouldn't.
>
>As for George speaking out openly...what exactly is he supposed to do? In any
>reports I read (unfortunately I have to use the media..), he never criticised
>other teammates, or management, save for Jimy Williams' DH idea.  As for 
>criticising the fans, well, I think he has a right to complain about fans
>who verbally abuse him when he is trying to do his job. 

The first reason the fans were booing him is because he refused to DH which
was obviously good for the team (as explained below).  This gave him the
reputation of not being a player who wants to help out his team win the
division.  Fans booed him for this.  When George started speaking out
against the fans, the fans booed him even more so George made the problem
worse.

>One more thought, you say that George did not give 100%. If that's true, why
>did he always come to play whether injured or not?  He kept trying his hardest
>to play LF, no matter how much pain he was in.  Sounds like 100% effort to me.
>
>Oh, I know, you will use the "well, if he was hurt, he should have DLed himself
>so someone healthy could play". Much like Gruber this year. And I bet you think
>that Gruber is "slacking off", not giving 100% etc. You can't have it both
>ways...

If Bell was hurt (bad knees and/or bad shoulder) he should have realized that
this was even more of a reason to help out the team and agree to DH more often.

>>
>>Bell may not be as much of a problem as some players but he certainly didn't
>>do anything to improve the atmosphere on and off the field.  Speaking his
>>mind is his main problem as stated above.  Actually late in his career as
>>a Jay he started to be a problem with kids.  A few times after a bad game
>>and Bell was booed a lot he refused to sign autographs for kids and even
>>used harsh words to autograph seekers.  
>
>See above. Why *should* he sign autographs for the same people who abuse him?
>Finally...how do you *know* that he did not sign autographs for people? From
>the newspaper columns? The same reporters who did not like George? Sounds like
>a fishy source to me...

If he wants the fans to get back on his side he should not abuse them even
more than he was.

>>His injuries were a problem late in his Toronto years but i think that he
>>could have put more effort and enthusiasm into playing and this is a good
>>reason why he should have been DH.
>
>And, again, I maintain that he put 100% effort into playing LF. He played as 
>hard as he could through his injuries.  Playing hard though injuries generally
>means one is giving 100% effort. Now, as to whether it helps the team or 
>not, but that's not the point.
>>
>>>
>>>(3) George didn't flatly refuse to DH, he said he would DH some of the time. 
>>>    Having the ego/machismo he does and coming from the Dominican, he felt 
>>>    that DHing made you less than a complete ballplayer. The Jays (and Jimy 
>>>    Williams) approached this matter all wrong with Bell. They basically 
>>>    served an ultimatum to him the year after he won the MVP award, telling 
>>>    him he was going to DH. Is it any surprise, with Jorge's pride and ego, 
>>>    that he didn't take too kindly to such a forced action? 
>>
>>I agree that the matter was approached in the wrong matter but if the same
>>happened to Winfield he probably would have agreed to DH because he would 
>>realize that it was best for the team.  Bell is less of a team player
>>than Winfield for this reason.  Also when Bell refused bunt if he was asked
>>to because he thought he was too good to bunt.  Winfield would do anything
>>the manager asks because he respects the manager and his decisions.
>
>Hmm. Whom did the Jays have to play the OF to replace Bell? Syl Campusano? 
>Rob Ducey? Mookie Wilson? Let's face it, Bell was the 3rd best OF the Jays
>had in the organisation that could play at the Major League level. He knew it.
>And the Jays knew it.  Now, I don't know Dave Winfield's situation, but 
>didn't Dave demand to play in the OF 2-3 times during a week? Even though he
>rarely gets to a ball? No, Dave should not play the OF, not with his lack of
>mobility. It is not good for the team for Dave to play the OF. Yet he demanded
>that he play there.  Doesn't seem like he's in it for the best of the team.

If you remember Mookie DH'd quite a bit that season and so by putting Mookie
in left you improve defense and the offense would remain the same.  Also
it would have been nice to see Ducey get a chance to play because I think
that he could be better than average defensively and and OK offensive player.

>Hmm. Let's see, during George's time with the Jays they won 2 AL East titles,
>lost one in the last week of '87 (when he was giving 100%), lost in '86, '88 
>and '90 by less than 5 games. Sounds like he "knew how to win" and "created
>a winning atmosphere". 

I don't credit George solely with those wins.  The Jays have had a good team
for years and maybe should have won more than 3 times so far.

>Do a quick check on Dave Winfield's career. How many times has *his* team won
>a Division title? How many times have they been close?  Take a look at his

Ken Griffey's team hasn't won and won't for a few years so does that mean he
doesn't "know how to win".  No it means he hasn't had the chance to win with
a good team.
 
>career numbers sometime. They show a drop off during the season. I am surprised
>at how strong he is, this late into the season.

I agree.  I will be interested to see if he will drop off and how far.

>I gave you a reasonable argument, with NO STATS involved. I love baseball. Its

Good.  This is what I wanted.  Arguements with no or little stats.  It was
nice to read and it shows that you know more about baseball than just the
numbers you read in the paper.  This post showed how someone can make a good
arguement without stats.

>As for enjoying a game on TV...not likely, especially with Fergie Olver(tm) 
>or Buck "I used to be a ML ball player so I know more about baseball than
>any one else" Martinez covering the Jays.  Both are horribly misinformed, are
>terrible journalists, and rarely have any useful insight.  Try LISTENING to a 
>baseball game. Tom Cheek and Jerry Howarth are great at describing the game,
>the mood, the position of players, etc. It's a *real* experience. 

I Listen to a lot of games.  Tom and Jerry are much better than the TV 
announcers.  I do try and watch as much of the Jays on TV as I can but if I
can't I almost always listen to all or at least part of the game on the Radio.

>Anand Sinha
>Blue Jays #1 -> all the way in '92. 
>Robbie Alomar for MVP
 
Robbie would be a good choice if he plays as good in the second half as he did
in the first.  If he avoids injuries he should be even better.
 
>Juan Guzman for Cy Young (let's start the campaign early :-)

With out Juan the Jays would be in second place.

--David Johnson


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