HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Samsung Sync 4 modes - reply for  <david@maxwell>
From: kraft@gac.edu  (Steven Kraft)
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:20:15 -0600
Reply-To: kraft@gac.edu

Sorry that I have to post this here in comp.os.linux, since it is not really  
relevant.  But I need to answer mail from a fellow Linux enthusiast who doesn't  
know how to get a proper address on his mail. :-)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
421 Host maxwell not found for mailer ether.
550 David Darknell <david@maxwell>... Host unknown

!Are you able to use your SyncMaster 4 at 1280x1024 without problems?
!
!David
	First let me say that the Samsung Syncmaster 4 is only advertised as a  
1024*768 monitor.
	I don't use 1280*1024 for anything right now, but the test program  
supplied with the Orchid Fahrenheit 1280/D uses that mode successfully on my  
Syncmaster 4.  It has flicker since it is 48Hz interlaced.  I have to fiddle  
with the size and position knobs some to center the image.  It is a bit coarse  
since the Syncmaster 4 is .31mm dot pitch. 
	If you are looking for advice on finding a GOOD monitor for something  
serious like CAD at 1280*1024 I would suggest that you look elsewhere or you  
may be disappointed. 

Steven Kraft KRAFT@GAC.EDU
Micro/Minicomputer Consultant, Comp Sci major
Gustavus Adolphus College
From: zlsiial@uts.mcc.ac.uk (A. V. Le Blanc)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: problems with tcsetattr
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:38:16 GMT
Followup-To: LeBlanc@mcc.ac.uk
Organization: Computing Centre, University of Manchester

Has anyone else been having problems with tcsetattr?
This may be a kernel bug or not, but several programs on my system,
bash in particular, seem to have problems occasionally with
tcsetattr failing with an error of 'invalid argument'.

     -- Owen
     LeBlanc@mcc.ac.uk
From: dam1@ra.msstate.edu (Daniel A. Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Where are the sources for xcomm/xc ?
Date: 10 Apr 92 06:36:42 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

I would appreciate very much if whoever put xcomm.tar.Z at tsx would 
also put the sources for it up...or if anyone else knows where I can
get these sources please let me know by mail...I was able to find
the sources for xcomm, but these were from 1989 and the README file
in xcomm.tar.Z at tsx shows that it came from a very recent release...
I would appreciate any help in this matter...

BTW...on a related not...when I tried to execute the new kermit (5A)
I got a segmentation fault...I am using the new kernel that Linus just
released....
-- 
Danny Martin : dam1@Ra.MsState.Edu
From: hlu@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu (Hongjiu Lu -- Graduate Student)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Yet another X question
Keywords: X Windows
Date: 15 Apr 92 05:32:27 GMT
Organization: Washington State University

In article <mper.703312424@uipsuxb> mper@uipsuxb.ps.uiuc.edu (Michael Pereckas) writes:
>I know it is sort of early to be asking this, but does anyone have a 
>guess as to how much disk space X Windows will
>need?  I'm trying to get a handle on how much money I'll have to
>come up with to upgrade my system to run it when it becomes 
>available.  I know better than to ask when that will be.

From my own experience, a real X11R4 can take as little as 10MB to run.
on a 386. I only keep the minimum stufffs I need. Beside MIT stuffs,
I added some other programs, like xgif and xdvi. I can put off X source
from the net and compile it without much problem. I believe, for X11R5,
20MB should be a safe bet.


H.J.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: jpo@informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Joerg Pommnitz)
Subject: compress doesn't work
Summary: problems using compress
Keywords: compress
Organization: tu-chemnitz
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 11:11:42 GMT

I have installed LINUX 0.95a on my harddisk without any problems. In order to
recompile the kernel I got gcc2.1.
Now I have got some trouble. compress "refuses" to uncompress the 2.1misc file.
The file is ok, I checked it on a SUN.
What happens is:
compress starts to work (tar ztvf * shows the contents of the file until it 
dies).
Then compress hangs. The process table indicates, that PC doesn't change.
So I think it's somewhere in the kernel.
If I switch to another VC, I can't do any input. 
So I can wait a loooong time, but nothing happens. If I interrupt the process 
using ^C some messages appear on the screen:

Out of Memory !
Out of Swap Memory!
Memory fault!

But I have 4M RAM and a 6M swapfile !!!!
The same problem occured when I tried to unpack elvis-1.5 (a correct file, too).
My hardware: i386-33, 4M RAM, ST1144A, AMI-BIOS,OAK-VGA.
The LINUX-FS is about 25 M.
There is no special swap device, only a swap file.

I know about at least one other machine with the same problem (using the same
distribution) and another machine where everything is perfect.

It's very frustrating to be unable to do anything, please assist !
From: williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: ALLWAYS IN2000 SCSI Controller
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:11:11 GMT

To make it short, I've got one of these.  Does anyone who's trying to run
Linux have one of these?  I would try to bring linux up if I could
get my scsi controller to work.

Failing that, how big a disk would I need to get a development system
to boot??


--
Kent Williams         | "Do you see your cerebellum as a lightbulb or a cog? I
williams@cs.uiowa.edu | saw mine as gristle so I fed it to the dog. But it 
Quote: Bevis Frond    | taste so bad, that she left it in the bowl ..."
From: drew@romeo.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: floppies Help !
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:18:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr9.001827.14878
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder

In article <19921@castle.ed.ac.uk> pthoms@castle.ed.ac.uk (P Thomson) writes:
>
>
>Hi , can someone help here please. I got hold of the images for boot and
>root and tried to run Linux from a 1.44Mb floppy.
>
>The program starts to load ie Loading..........
>prompts for a svga setting then bombs out. This happens no matter what
>mode I try to set ( pressing space has the same effect) 
>
>System config   386DX 20Mz
>		 91Mb Segate/Imperus Hard drive (SCSI)
>
>
> Thanks in advance Peter.

Several things : 
1. The "normal" distribution kernel does not support SCSI.  
2. The SCSI kernel probably tries to mount root off of the first 
	partition on the first "normal" hard disk, 
	and will panic when root can't be mounted.
3. The scsi kernel ONLY supports seagate and Ultrastor 14F
	hosts adapters.   Adaptec support is finished,
	and will be released RSN.

4. "bombs out"  doesn't mean to much.  What kernel panic is created,
	or does it just stop?
From: drew@kinglear.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Linux and DOS
Keywords: Partitions
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:19:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr6.201945.23999
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder

In article <1992Apr5.051102.2249@Saigon.COM> hienl@Saigon.COM (Hien Luu) writes:
>
>I would like to install Linux on my system, but the installation
>instruction doesn't mention how to set the system up so one can have
>DOS and Linux on the same system.  Also, how do I switch between DOS
>and Linux and vice versa, so would some one please explain and give
>
>some hints...

If you are booting with shoelace, with a /vmunix or whatever, you will
probably have installed winiboot, or a similar primary bootblock. At boot
up, this will prompt you for which partition you want to boot - and 
will timeout to provide a default.

winiboot is similar to the OS/2 bootmanager.

If you are booting the kernel off of floppy (slow), simply insert the 
bootimage floppy when you want Linux, DOS or nothing when you 
want DOS to come up.

>The installation instruction did mention that Linux must be installed
>on a primary partition.  But in DOS, one can only have one primary
>partition, so is there a trick to this?
> 

This is incorrect.  DOS will only support one "DOS primary partition".  
Current versions of FDisk will create "one DOS primary partition, and
one DOS extended partition".  Using an alternate partition editor 
will allow you to create all four partitions.  Mark the partition as 
something other than DOS - 0x81 "Minix" is traditionally used because that
is the file system we are currently using.


>Thanks in advance...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
From: anderson@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rick Anderson)
Subject: Re: What is linux?
Keywords: linux
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:10:20 GMT

I am a new user to Linux. I have gotten 95a images onto 1.2 diskettes, installed
the root image on my harddrive. Works great. But now I want to install GCC,
Mtools and other usr utilities into Linux partition.  I am working from an-
other PC using MS/DOS to ftp archives to my site.  How do I prepare diskettes
that linux will read and mount so I can install all these unix files?
   
With Linux, I was using rawrite to create diskettes from 'image' files.
Now I have unix file archives (tar) and don't know how to move them to Linux.
Can someone point me in the right direction?  The issue is moving unix
archives on an MS/DOS system to the Linux system.  
 
Thanks in advance.
Xref: sparky comp.os.linux:430 alt.os.linux:2496
From: jon@robots.ox.ac.uk (Jon Tombs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Phantom optimisation
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:04:01 GMT
Organization: Robotics Research Group, Engineering Science Dept, Oxford, UK.
Originator: jon@diomedes.robots


Everyone seems to be pushing the optimisation level of gcc higher and higher
the new kernel make file uses -O6.  I've not found any gnu doc that mentions
over -O2, and a quick look at the source shows no obvious use of >2.

To test this I built the entire kernel -O6 and -O2.
cmp on the resultant Image found _no_ differences in the binaries!!

Are we victims of GCC hype!!?
--
 Jon                    <jon@robots.ox.ac.uk>
                        "I got in today just as the sun was crashing"
                                                
                                                


                                            

                        
Xref: sparky comp.os.linux:395 alt.os.linux:2474
From: cheetah@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Bowen Goletz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: all kinds of questions
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:44:02 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.linux
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Apr13.191537.8035@coe.montana.edu> icsu8268@cs.montana.edu (Greenup) writes:
>
>Hello netters!
>   I just booted up for the first time two days ago, and now I'm a happy
>Linux user.  Well, almost.  I do have a few questions...
>
>1. is "agetty" different than "getty", if so,

	No significant difference, if any, just renamed.  getty is the 
more recent of the two.

>2. why doesn't "tar +help | more" work?

	The help output is through stderr insted of stdio (why?)  If you
want to pipe stderr, use the amperstand (&).  For example: tar &> tar.help.
Then more the tar.help file.  For some reason, stderr pipes aren't supported
with bash.  You should be able to do a &| to pipe the output directly to
more in the first place.

>3. does "sync" do a diskpark, or do I have to round up a routine for that?

	Sync flushes the disk cache.  Very important!  Most modern drives
auto-park on powerdown.  

	[abc release and binary incompatibility deleted]

	-bg

-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
Bowen Goletz
Purdue University                  Midi 'n Music
cheetah@sage.cc.purdue.edu         Bowen.Goletz@f120.n201.z1.Fidonet.Org
From: kxb@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Karl R. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: kernel building problems
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:48:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: matt.s4rdiINNros
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

news@solitary.Stanford.EDU (System test) writes:

>I've been going crazy trying to get either 0.95c or 0.95c+ to
>compile with gcc 2.1.  Which of these is the "second patch" to
>which H.J.'s patch is to be applied?  

Yes, I'm having problems too. I recently posted asking specifically
what the "second patch" was and if it was the 0.95c patches that was
the latest (at that time). I received one helpful email message from
some helpful person saying that the "second" patch was included in
this diff. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the latest 0.95c+ sources
also include this "second patch."

>In any event, the makefiles don't seem to work correctly for me and
>I don't know how to fix them.  The include files aren't found
>when the various directories are stepped into.

What exactly are the errors?

Now, I'm (trying) to compile a virgin 0.95c+ kernel with GCC 2.1
without much luck. I had to fix a couple of minor things in the
Makefile and completely (I hope) got rid of the last bits of gcc 1.40. 

>I screwed around until I got most everything to compile but can't
>get build to link. ld complains about an invalid offset for _write.
>Does anyone know what might cause this.

Well, I'm having a similar problem. I get several warnings but finally
get the error:

ld -M boot/head.o init/main.o kernel/kernel.o mm/mm.o fs/fs.o
fs/minix/minix.o kernel/blk_drv/blk_drv.a kernel/chr_drv/chr_drv.a
kernel/math/math.a lib/lib.a -o /tmp/system > /tmp/System.map
ld: malformed input file (not rel or archive) kernel/blk_drv/blk_drv.a(`
.SYMDEF)
make: *** [/tmp/system] Error 1

I thought It would be that I was using the wrong ld or a.out.h, but I
have tried the recommended combination with no luck. I also got this
message when trying to compile the 0.95c sources.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has successfully compiled
the 0.95c+ kernel with 2.1. Thanks!
-- 
Karl Buck, kxb@matt.ksu.edu 	:)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: efk@ddsdx2.jhuapl.edu (Eileen Baust)
Subject: Mach 3.0 mach_msg replacement for msg_rpc
Keywords: mach_msg
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 20:17:23 GMT

 I need help constructing the correct header for the msgh_bits field in order to use mach_msg as
msg_rpc. I am currently getting an (ipc/send) message-header error.
example
mach_msg(&msg.u_il.h,MACH_SEND_MSG BITOR MACH_RCV_MSG BITOR MACH_RCV_TIMEOUT,
         msg.u_il.h.msgh_size,sizeof(msg),my_reply_port,SEND_TIMEOUT_PERIOD,MACH_PORT_NULL);
EILEEN

Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Karl Fogel)
Subject: FAQ fo Mach needed
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Distribution: comp.os.mach
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:04:32 GMT

    If anyone has FAQ answer file or general info file on Mach and a 
minute to spare, would you please send it to kfogel@occs.cs.oberlin.edu?
I'd love to read it and would remember you in my will  :-)  ...
Thanks!

-karl fogel
.
From: bhk@locus.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: Port Rights
Date: 8 Apr 1992 18:21:25 GMT
Organization: Locus Computer Corp.
NNTP-Posting-Host: snips.dfci.harvard.edu

In article <1992Apr7.160034.9868@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> efk@ddsdx2.jhuapl.edu (Eileen Baust) writes:
> I am trying to allocate a port using Mach 3.0 on using mach for a 386.
>If the  following code is used :   
>kret=mach_port_allocate(mach_task_self(),MACH_PORT_RIGHT_RECEIVE,&my_receive_port);
>kret=mach_port_insert_right(mach_task_self(),my_receive_right,MACH_MSG_TYPE_PORT_SEND,MACH_MSG_TYPE_COPY_SEND);
>I am trying to create a port with both send and receive rights.
>Please reply to me at efk@ddsdx2.jhuapl.edu
>Eileen
>

Try
kret=mach_port_insert_right(mach_task_self(),my_receive_port,my_receive_port,
	MACH_MSG_TYPE_COPY_SEND);
or
kret=mach_port_insert_right(mach_task_self(),my_receive_right,my_receive_port,
	MACH_MSG_TYPE_COPY_SEND);


Brad Kemp
bhk@locus.com.
From: jclark@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: MacMach
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:05:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <78@afsg.apple.com> ron@afsg.apple.com (Ron Flax) writes:
+As I understand it, the problem is that CMU wishes to distribute MacMach on
+CD-ROM with full source (which is great!) and since the bsd server is built
+using 4.3bsd source code, an AT&T license is required before it can be
+redistributed.  This is not an Apple problem!

There was mentioned a 'non-redistribution' aggreement with Apple as
well as the 'BSD 4.3 --> ATT' source license requirement. Where are those
gnus when you need them...
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: mrt+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mary Thompson)
Subject: Re: macmach
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 00:04:09 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University

I can clarify the MacMach licensing issue a bit. This distribution is
being done by a person in the Computing Services side of CMU rather than
the School of Computer Science with which I am associated. However, the license
contraints are similiar. CMU has BSD and AT&T Educational Use source licenses. This allows us to share sources and binaries with holders of similiar licenses. 
It does not allow us to give or sell binaries to people who do not have such
licences. That requires a commercial redistribution license. This is not a
business that CMU wants to be in. 

Thus, as unreasonable as it seems  to owners of personal Macs and I386 clones,
we cannot give or sell you a system. This is the reason that i386 binary-only
releases of Mach are only available from mt Xinu. They have a commercial 
redistribution license.
  
The MacMach distribution is encumbered by one additional detail. Apple supported
the development of the system here at CMU and they have retained the commercial
rights to the system for themselves. Thus the MacMach distribution comes with
the additional restriction that it is only for "end use" (or personal use as
Zon had said). You may not incorportate the code into a product and redistribute
it as you may with other versions of Mach.

This is not the system for you, if you own your own Mac and do not have an
AT&T source license. It is useful for people using company- or university-owned
Macs who have a BSD/AT&T site source license.

					Mary Thompson





Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: florian@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Christopher T. Florian)
Subject: My humbal appoligies (Was Mac Problems...)
Summary: I am sorry.  I beg Forgivness.  <groval>  <wimper>  <groval>
Originator: florian@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:15:02 GMT


	My apppoligies, I had a list of mac newsgroups from my newsrc
	file, and grepped out all 'emacs' items, but I missed the 'mach'
	item.

	But I do thank those who did take pity on me and did give me
	some useful advise.

						Have a nice day.

 ==============================================================================
       University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee    Computing Services Division
     Christopher T. Florian   Documentation Specialist   EMS E380 229-6635
        Login: florian@convex.csd.uwm.edu  or  florian@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: mrt+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mary Thompson)
Subject: Anonymous FTP of Mach kernel MK73
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:37:40 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University


The Mach kernel version MK73 is now available for anonymous FTP from
mach.cs.cmu.edu in the directory /usr/mach/public/src. Things have changed
a lot since MK67. Please look at the documents in the INSTRUCTIONS
directory (included in default.tar.Z) The CHANGES.brief file gives
the historical version of what moved where.

				Mary Thompson
				Project Mach Distribution Manager
From: ehrlich@cs.psu.edu (Dan Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Getting 3.0 running without 2.5
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:55:56 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Penn State University

We are considering running Mach 3.0 on a bunch of DECstation 5000s we
will be getting RSN.  Is there a way to get Mach 3.0 up on such a beast
without already having Mach 2.5 installed?  Can I use Ultrix to bootstrap
Mach 3?
--
Dan Ehrlich - Sr. Systems Programmer - Penn State Computer Science
<ehrlich@cs.psu.edu>/Voice: +1 814 863 1142/FAX: +1 814 865 3176
From: ajv@roi.csd.mot.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: macmach
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:02:21 GMT

jclark@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Clark) writes:

>+Thus, as unreasonable as it seems  to owners of personal Macs and I386 clones,
>+we cannot give or sell you a system. This is the reason that i386 binary-only
>+releases of Mach are only available from mt Xinu. They have a commercial 
>+redistribution license.
>Hopefully when one puts one's ear to the ground one can heard the
>thundering hooves of a hurd of gnus.

<grin>

I'm sure the dinosaurs made a lot of thrashing as they sank into
the oblivion of tarpits.

The day of "utterly encumbered" operating systems is fading, and I'm
sorry that so much neat work has been lavished on something which will
probably not see the light of day.

				Just my opinions...
				Andy Valencia
				ajv@roi.ca41.csd.mot.com
From: mlanett@void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Mark Lanett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
Subject: Re: loading the mach kernal
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:19:28 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

me@amiganet.chi.il.us (Corey Sweeney) writes:

>        I have downloaded the mach i386 kernal from the internet and
now wish to load it onto my machine to make my machine bootable.  Does
anyone know how to do this?

There's plenty of docs at cmu. The official address is wb1.cs.cmu.edu, but they
seem to ba having ftp deamon problems. You can get to the same docs via
mach.cs.cmu.edu (they run afs).

W/o a filesystem I don't think you'll get very far, however.
-- 
Mark Lanett, Software Tools Group, NCSA; mlanett@uiuc.edu; NCSA.STG (AppleLink)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: junio@twinsun.com (Jun Hamano)
Subject: Re: MacMach
Organization: Twin Sun, Inc.
	<#+s0'ktn|@twinsun.com> <78@afsg.apple.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:05:47 GMT

In article <78@afsg.apple.com> ron@afsg.apple.com (Ron Flax) writes:

   As I understand it, the problem is that CMU wishes to distribute MacMach on
   CD-ROM with full source (which is great!) and since the bsd server is built
   using 4.3bsd source code, an AT&T license is required before it can be
   redistributed.  This is not an Apple problem!

I guess I was mistaken in my previous post; anyhow, what Ron says
here seems to imply that we can wait for the next version based
on AT&T-free 4.4bsd.  Thanks for the good news.
--
Jun Hamano (junio@twinsun.com)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach
From: jimj@miller.cs.uwm.edu (James Jegers)
Subject: Re: Help in installing man pages on Mach 3.0 running on 486
Organization: University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:24:48 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.124145.20973@relay.nswc.navy.mil> hleung@c40.nswc.navy.mil (Harry Leung) writes:
>Does any one out there know how to get "man" to recognize new man
>pages?  What I am talking about are the new man pages specific to mach.
>They are already formatted( "cat" able ).  The problem is I cannot get
>"man" to recognize them.
>
>I have tried using "setpath" and the environment variable MANPATH
>with out any success.  Having discovered that the man pages in /usr/man
>are compressed, I have compressed these man pages.  I have even moved
>a couple of these man pages into /usr/man, but "man" still do not see
>them.
>
    The manual pages need to be stored in a "cat" directory in your
    man path.  So what you need to do is

    nroff -man /usr/man/man1/manpage.man > /usr/man/cat1/manpage.1

    Some manual programs (ie. the new xman for X11R5) will atomatically
    do the above if it is not already done.  But the regular "man" doesn't.
    So you have to do all the man pages by hand.

-- 
     ______________________________________________________________
    /\               University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee          \
    \_| Computing Services Division     Computer Science Department |
      |   jimj@csd4.csd.uwm.edu	          jimj@miller.cs.uwm.edu    |
Newsgroups: comp.os.mach