From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Modest Dress
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 05:59:28 GMT


Peter, Assalamu alaikum - from your previous posting you are obviously a
Muslim, as am I.  Just because we disagree on a topic does not mean we
cannot discuss it in a civil manner, and attempt to at least try to see 
each other's point of view, in order to understand it.

In <1992Sep11.115707.13123@sei.cmu.edu> psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:

>10-Sep-92 12:24	darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)  repression of women

>>"Prevention is better than cure..."

>Agreed, therefore men should work on their minds and souls, and let women to
>choose what they wear as they please--precisely.

All post-adolescent men (& women) have a biological sex drive.  In my
personal experience, the sight of scantily clad women just seems to
enhance my lust, etc.  I'm sure this is a biological fact for the vast
majority of men, I would be surprised if anyone disagreed. 

Now let's assume that one aim of the Islamic requirement to dress
modestly is to help prevent sexual immorality as Islam defines it.
These are "greater" sins such as pre-marital or extra-marital sex, or
other sins such as just looking lustily upon women other than your wife.
Most men, when seeing a scantily-dressed "sexy" woman, are sexually
attracted - this is (at least partly) a biological thing.  Immodest
dress codes clearly enhance the probability that the man will want to
plunge into one of the sexually immoral acts Islam defines above.

Now, you are undoubtedly thinking, *why* should women have to do
something to prevent men sinning?  The fact is, if pre-marital or
extra-marital sex is engaged in, it is *both* who are sinning, not just
the man (except in the case of rape, of course, the where wrongdoing is 
fully the man's).  So modest dress by *both* men and women helps to
prevent sexual immorality as Islam defines it.  The second factor, is of
course, the Qur'an as well as instructing modest dress also instructs
men and women to avert their gazes from viewing the opposite sex with
lust in the case of someone not their spouse.  Islam attempts to prevent
sexual immorality from both sides - by specifying modest dress both men 
and women, and by instructing both men and women to try to avoid lustful
gazing and sexually improper behaviour.  

>>*If* what you say is true, I disagree with your interpretation.  Men who
>>have been raised in a culture in which modest dress is valued, clearly
>>don't know what kind of behaviour is expected when confronted with a
>>situation in which sexuality is overtly displayed.  On the other hand,

>Irrespective of culture, men should treat all "men" with respect and
>dignity--whether they are clothed or naked.  

>>Men are also required to dress modestly in Islam.  Both men and women
>>are required to cover a region of their body defined as their "`awra".

>Yes, but are men required to wear a cumbersome cloth from head to toe that
>forces them to put it in their teeth if they want to do anything coordinated
>with their hands?!  Give me a break.  I say let Iranian women choose freely
>whether they choose to encloak themselves this way.  

Islam as a religion is _not_ just a personal religion, it is also a
social religion.  Islam tries to build a society of people who help each
other to do the right things Islamically.  With the total freedom you
advocate, the only result you can get is chaos.  No society allows total
freedom, in every country individual freedom is restricted in some ways
for the good of the society.

Islam only requires that a specific area of the body be covered.  It
does not have to be a single piece of cloth, so there is no reason why
"it forces them to put it in their teeth if they want to do anything
coordinated with their hands."  An Islamically dressed women could
simply be wearing loose fitting Western clothing with a cloth to cover
her hair, according to my understanding of Islam.  
 
>Do you think it is the
>will of Allah for women to be harrassed on the streets by powermongering
>boneheads?!  I have heard many a story from Iranians themselves of women being
>taken to jail and forced to wait for a family member to come and pick them up
>to attest that they were not prostitutes just because their hair happened to
>be showing.

I do not specifically know about what happens in Iran, so I cannot say
anything (positive or negative) about anything there until I know more
about the facts of the situation. 

There does seem to be oppression in Iran, but I do not know enough about
present day Iran to intelligently discuss it.  I _do_ know about Islamic
teachings, however, but since I don't know much about Iran I cannot say
whether I think Iran is or isn't following fully Islamic teachings.
(The majority of Iranians are Shi`a Muslims as well, so their
interpretations of some aspects of Islam may differ from my Sunni
understanding.)

>I'm sorry, but this is bullshit, no matter how you cut it buddy.

With this attitude, how can we have an intelligent discussion?  The 
statement above seems to be saying, "It's useless talking to me, I've 
already made up my mind and I'm very closed-minded."  However, I'm sure
you are not really closed-minded, but sometimes we fly off the handle a
bit and say things we wouldn't otherwise. 

Peter, please forgive me if I have offended you in any way.  I do not
think that requiring modest dress in any way is oppressive to women, as
women can still do anything work-wise etc.  Note that I am supporting
the Islamic position here, which may not be the same as the situation in
present-day Iran.  

Islam simply requires of women that the wear opaque,
loose (so it doesn't show the form of the body) clothing covering their
whole body excepting their face, hands, and according to some
authorities, their feet.  The requirement is the same for men except men
must cover from navel to knee, although it is better if they can wear
more.  The colour of the cloth *does not* have to be black (as some
probably wrongly assume).  The clothing does not restrict at all what a
woman can achieve in society. 
 
 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

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