From: s_titz@ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Minors, laws, and "computer
Date: 21 Jan 1993 19:57:49 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft math/inf, Uni Karlsruhe, FRG
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: irau30.ira.uka.de

In article <199301191913.AA00764@eff.org> mc/G=Brad/S=Hicks/OU=0205925@mhs.attmail.com writes:

>  > downloading porn. Question is, should kids be able to download stuff
>  > their parents object to? If not, how do you stop it?
> That first question is more than one question.
>  
> 1) Should they be =physically capable of= it, that is to say should minors
> be allowed unsupervised access to modems?  

You see the implication of your question? Presumed equivalence of
 porn movies - violence movies - sex tools - modems
or
 prostitution - sex shops - video shops - BBSs

Looks not outright desirable... better we should stay away from any
"adult-only" arguments, or shouldn't we?

> 2) Should they be
> =intellectually capable of= it, that is, should minors be taught how to
> use computers and modems?

By answering this with "no", you use a "leave them dumb for the better
of them" medieval-church-style argument. Time has come long to
recognize that the *more* education is always for the better of them.

> 3) Should =society permit= it? 

A question of the exact society involved... it SHOULD, really.

> 4) Should
> =their parents permit= it? 

This can be answered by nobody than the parents themselves.

> 5) Should =sysops permit= it? 

The Akron case has shown which quagmire opens up if this question gets
even only posed.

> 6) If the
> answer to any of 1 through 5 be "no," =who= should bear the expense and
> effort to prevent it?

Redundant, since IMHO 1,2,5 can not be answered "no" without denying
fundamental societal principles. 

> I remember about four or five years ago, law enforcement officials in
> Seattle and some town in California were jointly proposing legislation to
> make it a crime to permit a minor child to own or use a modem, period.
> (Their concern was more about pedophiles cruising BBS's to "recruit" kids
> than about downloaded porn.)  The proposal didn't go anywhere, all Gods be
> praised, but keep in mind that there are people to whom this seems like a
> reasonable solution.

Okay, so make it a crime for parents to permit their children to use
the telephone, and restrict public payphones to red-light districts.
Using Californian legislature arguments, it wouldn't be hard.

>  
> If I have to guess, I would say that "society" thinks that ... well,
> "society" doesn't exist, so "society" doesn't think, but apparently enough
> people in society think that the answers should be 1=maybe 2=yes 3=no 4=no
> 5=no 6=sysops.  I suspect that this is an unworkable set of answers, but
> how do you tell them that? 

This is the path of least resistance for the thoughts of conservative
pinheads and putting the blame on an easily selectable scapegoat.
(After all, without the sysops, the whole computer networks and
therefore All Evil Of The World wouldn't be there, or would it? ;-)

> (My personal answer: 1-3=yes, 4=maybe, 5=yes,
> 6=parents.)

Absolutely agreed.

> Of course they would.  There's no faster way to attract anybody's
> attention to something than to tell them they can't have it.  It works
> just as well on adults as on minors.  (How many people would have bought
> _The Satanic Verses_ if the stores hadn't been planning on dropping it in
> response to the Ayatollah's threats, really?)

Cf. the success of Frankie Goes To Hollywood some years ago, and
numerous other success stories...

> As another friend of mine who's about your age once asked me, "Why do they
> call it adult language when almost nobody over the age of 13 talks that
> way?"  But you're right, whether or not strong language or strong images

Because there are some legal adults at an emotional age of 13 using
that words too...

>  > We currently have no "legal watch" that systematically scans state
>  > legislatures for cyber-related bills.
>  
> I =thought= we did...the EFF, right?

We should, as this is an inherently global issue, have such an
organization spreading around the world.

Olaf
-- 
| Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student  |   o     | uknf@dkauni2.bitnet | old address |
| univ. of karlsruhe - germany |  _>\ _  | s_titz@ira.uka.de   | is still    |
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  "My heart is human - my blood is boiling - my brain IBM" - Mr. Roboto
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk