From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: na 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:41:02 GMT

In <MUFFY.92Dec21154021@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>In article <BzM49A.5yx@world.std.com> aep@world.std.com (Andrew E Page) writes:
>>In article <1gth7bINNcfi@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>>>dgross@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>>>>	"We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision in infancy
>>>So this gives you the right to do violence unto others???
>>100%, completely off of the MARK!!

Not the right, but could it be the reason? See below.

>>The issue is not the right to comit violence at all!>The issue is that
>>men are also the victims of violence.

>No, the issue is that every time someone talks about the violence that
>is practiced against women, some people here start shouting about the
>violence that happens to men.  Not only do they not seem to want us to
>work on the problem *we* are concerned about, but they further want us
>to work on *their* problems.  No one has *denied* that men have
>problems, those are simply not necessarily the problems that many
>feminists are concerned about.  It is apparently more interesting to
>advocates for men to attack anyone working on women's problems than to
>*do* anything about the problems they are supposedly so concerned about.

Point taken. However, according to some studies I've read violence begets
violence. By this I mean that people who are abused as children go on to
abuse their own children. I would imagine that much of the schoolyard
bullying commented on here could lead to the victims being violent
toward others weaker than themselves, e.g. wives, children. I expect
that if this were true it would be in all our interests to eradicate
such behaviour. For example, most of us have probably told our children
not to be squealers. Example: Whistleblowers are usually regarded with
approbation, rather than the congratulations they deserve, especially
when it is public monies that are being stolen.

No one ever tells on the schoolyard bully. I had to get so fed up that
I punched mine in the nose. He had a thick nose, I damn near broke my
hand! But after taking the risk, and letting it be seen that I thought
the Marquis of Queensbury was an idiot, things got better. Collected
a few bloody noses and darkened eyes in the process, but I also handed
out my share and more. But the point: No one ever offered to help, no
one ever told the teacher what was going on, in short - you were
always on your own. Isn't this just a little at odds with the whole idea
of society as a collection of people working for mutual benefit?

In any case, tossing bricks back and forth over the fence isn't going
to solve anything. I don't enjoy violence even in the movies. Oh, I'll
admit that some violent comedies will make me laugh, but only because
I know that it is all unreal. I don't enjoy being physically hurt, nor
do I enjoy hurting others, either physically or emotionally. I don't
really believe that 'normal' folk enjoy it either. I once read that
some people exist without what, for lack of a better word, we call a
conscience. A dear friend of mine went through hell in her childhood
with a mother who was one of these people. She broke the chain and
never abused her son, much to her credit.

So, despite all the flamage here, I don't believe that any of the
posters are much different than I am. So let's get on with finding
solutions and leave blame to the courts - please.

$0.25

Bob

>Muffy
>--

>Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
>muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
>"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
>not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
			^^^^^^^^^^^
Doesn't that make it a little awkward? :-)

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