From: cortese@skid.ps.UCI.EDU (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a possibly Very Weird topic)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:43:51 GMT

In article <C03H0r.5G7.1@cs.cmu.edu> tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price) writes:
>>>Me again, on the subject of reclaiming sexuality.  In the book
>>>"Women Respond to the Men's Movement" p. 4, Ursula LeGuin writes
>>>about a gathering she was at where Robert Bly told her, "The
>>>Men have raised a Great Phallus farther up the river. ... I'd
>>>show you, but it's off limits to the Women...."  When I read
>>
>>The "women aren't allowed" comment seems quite childish, and sadly,
>>quite in character for Bly.  There was no point in telling her about
>>it if she wasn't invited to participate.  But that's so typical of
>>him.
>
>It is quite in keeping with the exclusive nature of the initiation
>rituals of primitive peoples, both for males and females. Do you have
>a well thought out opinion that they are childish too? Or do you just
>not know what you're talking about?

Are you honestly saying that we are equal in every respect to a
culture -- "primitive" or "nontechnological" depending on how
ethnocentric you want to seem -- that sees no constant barrage of
violence every time they turn on the TV, that has no access to violent
pornography, that doesn't talk about "sexual surrender," that has a
frequently polytheistic religion with role-model divinities for each
sex?  Come ON -- there is a huge difference between early agrarians
and food foragers and what we are now, and I can't buy your attempt to
equalize us so facilely.

If someone from the Middle Ages or a nontechie culture today were to
think that Earth is flat, it certainly would not be childish, but
instead a useful and practically applicable belief that works for them.
If someone in our culture were to think so, I'd call them a fool.

What is good for one culture is not good for another.  One of the most
basic tenets of ANY social science is that the beliefs and activities
of a culture must be examined within that culture's framework to see
how it holds up with whatever else they do.  You CANNOT logically
attempt to prove the merits of an activity in modern American culture
by appealing to the tenets of another nontech culture.  They are
valuable role models that expand our ideas of the possible in human
behavior, and we may take from other cultures and attempt to integrate
their values into our system, but to evaluate our activities according
to their values is like attempting to prove a theorem in hyperbolic
geometry using the postulates of Euclidean -- senseless.

People that have initiation rituals in nontechie cultures have any of
a variety of other things -- sexual equality, genital mutilation from
infibulation to subincision, freedom of sexual choice, complete
rigidity in sexual choice, homosexuality phobias to encouragements,
mass media to none of this . . . the list goes on.  Are you honestly
saying that the initiation rituals in ALL of these cultures function
identically and have identical value to the people in each culture?

Classical Spartan warriors also practiced homosexuality -- LOTS.  They
thought that warrior-lovers would protect one another more fiercely in
battle.  Why then do you not become homosexual?  It is this kind of
logic -- "This custom works for `them' so we can lift it in one
swallow, ignoring the interconnections between it and all other
vagaries of their society, and co-opt it ourselves." -- that makes
people think that they are being sociologically urbane when they are
really being cultural strip miners.

There exists also (I think it's in a Margaret Mead book) an account of
an initiation ritual for young boys by which they are required to
drink what they call "fathers' milk" -- they are required to perform
fellatio on all older men of the tribe because by doing this, they
believe that they ingest a mystical substance that will nourish their
budding manhood.  Were this custom to be lifted in toto into American
culture, could you see the terrible potential for abuse that it would
bring?  The people in that culture have very different ideals of
sexual behavior between men and women than we do.  THEY VALUE THE
CUSTOM DIFFERNTLY THAN WOULD WE.

I'm sorry -- you can't just adopt this K-Mart attitude towards other
cultures' practices.  Initiation rituals are not just "stuff people do
together"; they are complex creatures filled with interconnections and
connotations given them by the other activities of another culture.

Regards,
Janis C.


--
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments should be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.