HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 06:26:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.232019.14670@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>Hmmm - I've had some interesting conversations with folks lately about
>what sells in an RPG, and why.  What do you look for when you buy RPG
>material?  Good game mechanics or good world background?
>
I have a set of standard game mechanics which I consider usable in most
games, namely Hero.  These are excellent mechanics, and I'm pretty well
familiar with them.  Therefore, I do not buy anything else for mechanics,
and I do buy Hero products for the mechanics (Ninja Hero, Hero Bestiary)
and to see how to apply Hero mechanics to different settings (Fantasy
Hero, Cyber Hero).

Therefore, whenever I buy a product in another line, it is for the
background only, and I don't consider the mechanics unless it is clear
that Hero is not a good choice (I wouldn't use Hero rules in a Toon game,
for example).  If Hero mechanics will work, one thing I consider is how
much of the product is taken up with mechanics that I have no interest in,
and how easy it is to use the good stuff with other (i.e., Hero) rules.
The exception is the GURPS rules, which I bought as a supplement to their
supplements (if that makes sense).

The Hero publishing schedule being what it is (scanty and mostly Champions,
which I do not run), most of my RPG money goes to non-Hero products, and
therefore I usually buy RPG stuff based on background.

DHT


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: mark@cheers.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Manning)
Subject: Weenie Magic Items - Intro
Organization: NASA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:00:35 GMT

A long time ago (about three months) I said I would post the
Weenie Magic Item list.  Unfortunately, little things like
getting married, moving to a new house, and hard disk crashes
caused me to not be able to post anything for quite a while.
Now however, after many many months of waiting - I have the
listing.  So smile :) here it is!
From: maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki/Suonio)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Palladium/WotC Lawsuit--How You Can Help
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 06:46:58 EEZ
Distribution: world
Organization: Sweet Oblivion

goldm@rpi.edu (Mitchell E. Gold) writes:

> Unless they've moved, the address in the Palladium Role Playing Game is:
>    Palladium Books
>    5926 Lonyo Ave
>    Detroit, MI 48210

Actually, according to their Dec 1992 press release, they HAVE moved!

The new address is: 

Palladium Books Inc.
12455 Universal Drive
Taylor Michigan 48180



--------
maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) Voice +358 0 8092681
Sweet Oblivion (+358 0 8092678, V.32bis 8N1) Official SRP Headquarters
SnailMail: Maininkitie 8A8 SF 02320 ESPOO FINLAND
From: dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Date: 23 Dec 92 13:40:12 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: A.R.M. Ltd, Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs, UK

In article <1992Dec21.232019.14670@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:

>Hmmm - I've had some interesting conversations with folks lately about
>what sells in an RPG, and why.  What do you look for when you buy RPG
>material?  Good game mechanics or good world background?

In order of priority:

(1) Good separation between mechanics and background material.

    I.e. if I want to use the mechanics for a different background, I don't
    want to have to disentangle them from the existing background. I'm happy
    to accept limitations on what sort of background the mechanics will work
    with - i.e. I don't expect to be able to go out of genre in a single
    genre system without major rules work.

    A trivial example of the sort of thing I dislike: the use of old mages'
    names in AD&D spells like "Tenser's Floating Disc". It presupposes that
    a mage with that name did exist at some point - which is likely not to
    be true in my home-designed world. So either I've got to think up some
    other reason for the name, or I've got to tell players that the spell is
    called by a different name in my world, or I've got to put up with a
    small niggling wrongness about my world.

(2) Good mechanics.

    Creating these for myself is just too much hard work! Though some
    flexibility to allow me to customise the way the world works is very
    desirable.

(3) Good background material.

    Basically, this is useful for when I'm feeling too lazy to design
    *everything* about my world myself!

David Seal
dseal@armltd.co.uk

All opinions are mine only...
From: gobeski8618@iscsvax.uni.edu (Steve 'Gobes' Gobeski)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Hero Bestiary and other Hero Stuff
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:28:30 GMT
Organization: United Anarchists of the World Association, Inc.

In article <davis.725738537@cwis>, davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) writes:

> 
> My rationale stems from the fact that 'Stun only' is a -0 limitation.  If
> doing normal BODY is -0, and STUN only is -0, you might ask, why is Reduced
> Penetration worth a limitation at all?  My answer is that it's becuase
> Reduced Penetration has the worst of both worlds.  It does not do enough
> BODY to harm forcewalls and entangles of equal active point value.  But,

... <stuff deleted> ...

> In lieu of the above, I look at it this way.  If the Reduced Penetration
> results in average BODY rolls of 3 or higher, it's worth -1/4 total, since
> you can't hurt forcewalls or entangles, but can hurt normals.  If it results
> in BODY rolls (average) of 2 or less, then it's -0, since it has really
> become STUN only.
> 

STUN only should *not* be a -0 limitation!!  As stated above, it should be
worth something since it lacks the ability to knock down forcewalls and break
entangles.  It could be worth up to -1/4 in a supers campaign iff entangles/fw
are even  somewhat common.  Not to mention that a STUN-only is no good for
blowing holes in the walls of that VIPER base...

In a non-supers campaign, like FH (moreso in CH) STUN-only attacks are quite
obviously worth something, IMO on the scale of BODY-only attacks for Champs (-2)
at the very least!  Experienced hero-level gamers will surely be quick to note
that the average Normal attack (ex. staffs) are not comparable to killing
attacks with the same points because the target gets to apply both PD and rPD
against the body; leading some to consider allowing a lim for normal attacks or
rescaling killing attacks to 20pts/die.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steve "Gobes" Gobeski | GOBESKI8618@iscsvax.uni.edu             |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|  more
| A BORING SIG IS WORSE | I don't believe the preachers           |  useless
| THAN NO SIG AT ALL!!! | They're just sticking out they're hands |  wasted
|-----------------------| I don't believe the government          |  space
| useless, wasted space | Who the hell is this Uncle Sam?         |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:59:31 GMT

gt0040a@prism.gatech.EDU (Tom Sorensen) writes:

>+ A framework of elegant--but basic--rules can be used with many
>+ backgrounds, but they won't allow the same level of detail as a system
>+ optimized for a certain gaming style and background.  I don't believe that
>+ you can have one elegant system that works well for both "realistic"
>+ gaming and "heroic superhero" gaming.  The former style requires detailed
>+ combat rules, and combat can take several minutes. For the latter,
>+ anything beyond a simple, fast combat system would bog down the game.
>
> I disagree- look at the Hero system. Its generic. That's all there is to
> it. Although it originally developed as Champions, a super-hero game, it is
> easily adapted to normal heroic stuff- like spies, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.

As one person pointed out, I shouldn't have used the word "genre" where I
did; it's confusing.  I had in mind the "gaming style and background" part,
which might better be termed "feel".  Hero might be suitable for many genres,
but not for many "feels".  Even you limit it to "heroic stuff".  That does
not make it a generic game system; it might make it a generic heroic style
system.

> Another is that if the GM decides to change a major bit of the genre (such
> as the technology level of a sci-fi campaign) then the rules might
> also turn out to be useless. What if I don't believe in faster than light
> travel? That's going to change EVERYTHING- the tech. base, the characters,
> and, most importantly, the entire society. What if I do believe in FTL, but
> there is no super-FTL message transmission? That means the fastest way to
> get information around is by ship. Another cultural change.

Yes, that is a problem.  One solution is to allow all those backgrounds to
work with the rules.  Those rules will necessarily have to be fairly vague
about such things as technology and society.  You then have to write at least
a part of a complete game system to whatever level you want, for the
background you want.

If you have a particular style of gaming and background--ie. "feel"--,
wouldn't it be nicer to be able to buy a game that supports that "feel", with
detailed rules and background material?  You probably want to change some
parts of it, but it should reduce the amount of work you need to do.  If you
want a significantly different "feel", choose a different game system.

I'd rather play in three different well-developed game rule systems
(optimized for backgrounds or "feels") with depth, even though it means
learning three systems, than in one vague, shallow, generic rules system for
all three backgrounds.  This assumes an average GM, not that rare critter:
"the GM who can run a great game with no rules or background material".  :)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Palladium/Wizards of the Coast Lawsuit
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:45:42 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <BzMtMy.A0o@nic.umass.edu> dunkelza@titan.ucc.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
>    Basically, what I'm driving at (Other than I hate Palladium Games),
>is that Siembda, unlike most other designers is SO overly protective of 
>his stuff that he can't stand ANYONE doing anything for HIS game except HIM.

  Which other old, infamous game designer does this remind us of? :)

>Dunkelzahn

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Palladium: Whiners of the Hobby (was Re: Palladium/Wizards of the Coast Lawsuit)
Date: 28 Dec 92 18:29:53 GMT
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
	<1992Dec22.141940.12696@afterlife.ncsc.mil>
	<Bzrzqr.7Mv@news.chalmers.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se's message of 24 Dec 92 18:08:50 GMT

In article <Bzrzqr.7Mv@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:

   In article <1992Dec22.141940.12696@afterlife.ncsc.mil> acadams@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur C. Adams) writes:
   >Kevin Siembieda regularly writed cutting letters to White Wolf, unjustly
   >accusing them of being a house organ, complaining that they don't have 
   >enough coverage of his company's games.

> Did this happen before or after he asked/ordered/implored Challenge
> not to mention his games?:)

Before.

But those White Wolf letters to the editor stories aren't over yet.
Wanna hear the latest?

Okay, as you remember, about a year and a half ago Siembieda went
round and round with White Wolf (through letters he wrote to them,
which they published along with their rebuttals) about how WW really
was hypocritical in that they never published Palladium articles.  WW
responded that they could only publish articles that were sent into
them and that no one had sent them any decent Palladium articles to
publish.

Well, recently they did receive an articles on RIFTS and they decided
to publish it.  But before publishing it they sent it to Palladium to
see what they thought of it, asking them to check it for accuracy and
so forth.

The response they received was a threatening letter from Palladium's
attorney telling them that if they printed the article they would be
sued!  Siembieda didn't even bother to write back personally, he just
turned the matter over to his attorney.

[Disclaimer: This according to Lisa Stevens who I assume heard it from
 one of her former co-workers at White Wolf.]

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
From: apardon@rc1.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Overlord series
Date: 30 Dec 92 09:56:22 GMT
Organization: Brussels Free Universities (VUB/ULB), Belgium

Can someone give me some information about the

"Citystate of the invincibleinvincible Overlord" Series. 

Or something like that. (I'm not too sure about the title)


Pro's?
Con's?

I have read that they are adaptable to other systems. 
What do they provide to aid you in such an adaption?

Any respons apreciated.

========================================================================
Antoon Pardon                                        <apardon@vub.ac.be>
Brussels Free University Computing Centre                   02/650.37.16
========================================================================
 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: <cpearce@nemesis.acs.unt.edu> (CHris Pearce)
Subject: WFRP: about
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:21:04 GMT

WFRP is among my top three favorite games... unfortunately, Games
Workshop has effectively axed it -- it doesn't even really seem to
appear in their catalogs anymore. It's a pity, since it had a nice
minimalist system that reinforced the heroic yet dark fantasy world.

The rulebook itself really doesn't contain much information about the
game world -- though it does detail the Old World's pantheon nicely,
the world source is all high level... a brief history of the world
that concentrates on the Empire.

The world, however, is quite rich and really fun to play in.... most of the
Old World's flavor is imparted in the excellent fantasy campaign _The
Enemy Within_. Quite simply, this set of about six adventures is the
best fantasy campaign ever produced. (*Puts on flame retardant jumpsuit*)

If you already have some WFRP stuff, then try to track down this series...
if you are the sort of person who likes to take a core world and system
and then develop your own adventures, then tracking down the rulebooks
and as many supplements as you can find is worthwhile... but if you
require quick and copious support for your game system, then Games
Workshop is not the game company for you... (they apparently also
really piss off American distributors).

Here's the supplements you should look for:

   The Enemy Within Campaign
       The Enemy Within
       Shadows Over Bogenhafen
       Death on the Reik
       The Power Behind the Throne
       Something Rotten in Kislev
       Empire in Flames
       (The above *have* been rereleased in two bound volumes.)

  The Restless Dead (is pretty good)

  Warhammer Companion (fills in some rules holes -- note, the system
      itself is not perfect... there are some reality check failures
      and the GM should really curtail abusive career switching... the
      system is simple and straightfoward (though the rules sometimes aren't)
      and the system enhances the feel of the world)

  Realms of Chaos 1 and 2 (nice stuff about demons, warriors of Chaos,
     etc. in there, though each book is *quite* pricey... it is really
     for WFRP diehards who like to see twisted genius :) )

  Lichemaster and Death's Dark Shadow also contain good adventures,
  and Castle Drachenfels provides and extremely high-power adventure
  (haven't played the last though)

  Finally, the Warhammer Fantasy books are often surprisingly good --
_Drachenfels_ is a full-length novel that received an honorable mention
in 1989's _Years Best Fantasy and Horror_ [forgive me if I've muffed
the title]. WFRP short story anthologies are often good, if somewhat
uneven... the best short story I've read is _The Gardener of Parravon_
(also received an honorable mention) which evokes a wonderful
Lovecraftian horror feel.

Oh well, this should have probably been posted to .advocacy, but the
original thread started in .misc, and I was replying to it...

--
Chris Pearce, cpearce@nemesis.acs.unt.edu
From: loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:46:21 GMT
Organization: Wharton Marketing

In article <1992Dec22.172644.18800@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>       What I would like in *rules* is clean, easy-to-understand 
>mechanics which let the players know how things work - which fits with the 
>genre I am using. 

>       What I look for in *background* is lots of material for players 
>to sink their teeth into. Artwork, details, background, and stories all 
>help enormously in making the background real to the players. I can make 

This underlines what I look for in roleplaying games. I look for something 
new and interesting, in the hope that novelty will make the game more fun, 
and I'll look either for rules or background. IMHO a roleplaying game 
provides both rules and background, and it's important that both be as high 
quality as possible.

Even if a roleplaying system tries to be generic and divorced from a 
background, certain decisions about it will not be generic. This is 
especially true with magic systems and other rules that can't be reality 
checked. The GURPS magic system is tied to a specific set of assumptions 
about magic, including frequency of magic items, and to assumptions about 
who may and may not cast spells, and any major change in the magical 
assumptions requires a change of magic rules. The RuneQuest magic systems 
are tied to different assumptions, as is the case with D&D, Rolemaster, 
Shadowrun, Jorune, and so on. Thus I don't think that rules are wholly 
separate from background, so even if you only want perfect rules *for your 
genre* you need to pay attention to the hidden assumptions your game system 
makes about that background.

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Time am I, wreaker of the world's destruction, matured, grimly
resolved here to swallow up the worlds.             -- Krishna
From: ptb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au (sIR pATRICK OF bURKE)
Subject: Help with weenie list posting
Keywords: weenie, items, postings, missing, parts, 3, 4, 5
Organization: University of New South Wales
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 14:36:30 GMT

	Hi,
		Our news system somehow managed to miss parts 3, 4 and 5
out of the nine parts posted  recently in this newsgroup
for the weenie magic items. Could someone
be kind enough to e-mail them to me?

Thanks,

-------------------------+----------------------------+------------------------
sIR pATRICK OF bURKE     | Gnomes are elves who've    | Gone Chopin. Back in
ptb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au| kicked the hobbit.         | 5 minuets. Offenbach
Uni. of New South Wales +------------------------------------+ sooner.   
Australia.              | S.U.D.S.-Sudden Unix Death Syndrome|   
------------------------+------------------------------------+-What a Bohr!----
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Solar System Generator wanted
From: rcbi46@marshall.wvnet.edu
Date: 21 Dec 92 11:38:23 -0500
Organization: Marshall University

I'm looking for an IBM program that will generate planets and solar systems,
for Fringeworthy, a space exploration game from Tri-Tac Games. I have
Worldgen, but it is an old version.  I'm looking for a program that
will generate maps and info about the planet, but I'll take anything. If 
you have any info, please drop me some electrons at:

Jim Atkinson 

RCBI46@Marshall.Wvnet.Edu

"What is Father Moore doing with that flamethrower?" - a Stalking quote.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: bcannard@hppcb36.mentorg.com (The Human Mi-Go)
Subject: Re: META: Game Mechanics vs. Background
Originator: bcannard@hppcb36
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:14:28 GMT
Distribution: rec
Reply-To: bob_cannard@mentorg.com
Organization: Yuggoth Ores and Quality Used Brains
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <11024@armltd.uucp>, dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal) writes:
In article <1992Dec21.232019.14670@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>Hmmm - I've had some interesting conversations with folks lately about
>what sells in an RPG, and why.  What do you look for when you buy RPG
>material?  Good game mechanics or good world background?

I look for completeness, value and good ideas, whether they are in
mechanics, background, or even presentation.

I'll buy a game for its background if that background has some special
interest for me. AMBER, CoC and Jorune for example. The AMBER mechanics
were a bonus.

On the other hand, some games I acquire to check out the mechanics -
e.g. GURPS, Over the Edge, TORG (for the drama deck). The weird
background in OTE turned out to be a major bonus. Mechanics are
of interest for developing my home-brew systems, which are far
from perfect and constantly evolving.

Lost Souls was acquired simply for being different, the goal being
to stay dead. Plus it was excellent value: to hell with flashy
artwork, you want me to buy your game, make it affordable.

That's why I'll never run a TORG game as such: it costs too much to
know enough to use it well. AD&D stung me badly enough that way;
never again.

Presentation? There's a stack of Paranoia modules lying unused in my
bedroom. The laugh factor was enough to justify the purchase, if they
get used that's a bonus.
-- 
bob_cannard@mentorg.com			"More dynamite!" - Theron Marks
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc