HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:16:04 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Books on Teaching Writing
              5 Nov 1992 11:11:00 CST from <UAHRXN01@ASNUAH.ASN.NET>

Rose, I use Dick Graves' _Rhetoric & Composition_, 3rd Ed.
and Don Murray's _A Writer Teaches Writing_, 2nd Ed
and Mike Rose's _Lives on the Boundary_


The Murray book is the best single author book I've seen on the subject
and the Graves anthology the best collection.  I have tossed in Rose
because of the personal narrative, clearly non-academic approach to
basic writers and other 'at risk' types of students.  I also add about
18 to 20 articles not in the Graves anthology.

   __________________________________________
   David H. Roberts
   Director of University Writing Programs
   Samford University
   Birmingham, AL 35229-2207 USA
   Voice: (205) 870-2964; Fax: (205) 870-2384
   Bitnet:  DHROBERT@SAMFORD
   CIS:     72630,3633
   __________________________________________
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:45:20 -1000
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: daedalus and price/end of paper/etc

On Mon, 2 Nov 1992, Gordon Thomas wrote:

> Just a clarification about this $7000 figure we're tossing around for the
> Daedelus package--that's the approximate price for two computer classrooms.
> The software is considerably cheaper if you don't have to outfit 60
> computers.  Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.  (I can say this because
> I have *no* connection with Daedelus.   Hmm.., not quite true, I do
> *know* some of the people in the group.  Hmm. . . maybe I shouldn't post
> this . . . Hmm . . .)

My apologies.  We just rec'd the latest price list, and for a single
IBM/compatible classroom, for the whole package, the price is ca. $4000.

Jim Shimabukuro
Kapiolani CC
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 10:01:02 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yankee Trader Needs Info

Nancy, you wrote:>
> Rhoda, nothing's too tame to look at and consider -- you never
> know when you will need what...and as we in MS face the very
> real possibility of "open admissions" to schools we are going
> to have HUGE remdial programs and will need all the writing ideas
> we can get!
>
> Please -- share!!! Everything!
> Nancy Ellis
> nse2@ra.mstate.edu
> Mississippi State Univ
>
Please don't fear "open admissions" and "remedial" instruction.
Opening admission is a chance to offer serious programs to people
who really need help (we are talking about working class students,
in general) in gaining access to the language (and, therefore, doors)
of the privileged classes.  I am in a basically open admissions
university.  The students here are a delight to teach.  They know
writing is important--they have seen how those who have not gained
literacy have been disenfranchised.  They are very willing and eager
to learn--if we can convince them (kinetically, not verbally) that
what we have to "teach" counts.  The first move is to remove the
word remedial.  You find out where they are and bring them along.
Writing can be a world of magic for students at any level.
okay.  off the soapbox.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:55:37 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

On Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:07:00 CST <SLATIN@UTXVM> said:
>Dave Roberts: It makes no more sense to call hypertexts "nonstructured" by
>definition than it does to call all paper-based essays "structured" by
>definition. As we all know all too well, the mere presence of five visual
>markers indicating "new paragraph" is no guarantee of structure.

I agree with you (I didn't post the quote you ascribe to me).

dave roberts
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:14:48 CST
From:         GSSCRON@ECNUXA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Test 2
              1

Both Test and Test 2 reached me.  Thank you.
I am enjoying learning to use the BITNET/Internet.
        Ronald Farquhar, English Dept., South Suburban College,
                         South Holland, IL
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:59:00 EST
From:         "JEFFREY R. GALIN" <WPWP@PITTVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ncte 93 & cccc 94?

Liz,
        Don't know if I've caused some of the confusion.  Yes CCCC 93 is in
San Diego.  NCTE 93 is in PIttsburgh (I'm pretty sure).  Don't know
about CCCC 94.
jeff galin
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:42:40 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      mla info?

I know I've written a month's worth of messages in the last 24 hrs or so,
but I've got one more question and would appreciate your help...

do you known of a site that provides free access to MLA bibliography?

N. Ellis
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:35:19 -0500
From:         Angela Murphy-Walters <WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Open admissions

     Just one other brief comment on open admissions, remediation, at-risk
students et al.  Here at Western Carolina University our Faculty Senate's
theme for the year is WCUnique! -- trying to define what it is that makes
this university unique.  We know already that one of our strengths is that
we don't try to compete with Duke and Chapel Hill for top students.  We
don't want to emulate them.  There is a real need for a university that
serves the students who aren't academically prepared and/or bright enough
to be admitted to the top schools in the state, much less to succeed there.
A big part of our mission is to educate first-generation college students
from rural, poverty-stricken areas where their preparation for college was
practically nil.  We have a very good writing center and other resources to
help those students succeed.  If every college and university in North
Carolina recruited at-risk students and tried to remediate, where would we
at WCU be?  Of course, every school will have some students who need some
help to make it, but if there is a college or university in your state that
exists primarily to educate students who need a _lot_ of help, should you,
in the current economic climate, even try to devise a comprehensive program
for at-risk students?
                                               Angela Murphy-Walters
                                               WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:57:32 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      remedial education

Jim, I like your positive attitude toward remedial students.  Some days
I can think like that, others I can't--reality or my inadequacies hit
me in the face.

I taught in LA from 83-86, in a high school in St. Bernard parish --
drop out rate= 68% (only 32% of any 9th grade class would be "in tact"
to graduate...).  There were days I stepped out into the hall and cried,
literally, because I could find no way to reach the boys (it was an
all boys' high school still, at that time!).  Of course, only a handful
of even that 32% would even consider college.

I'm just not sure college (or what I think college should be) is for
everyone !  Maybe we'd rather see students on college campuses
(thinking a semester or two in that environment is better than the
street)...  Maybe the role of college is different... maybe education
is turning into a "holding pen" rather than a place to "learn the
wisdom of the ages" (or BEGIN to learn...).

Even on my own campus I'd taught Freshman Seminar courses which were
designed to take "at risk" students and teach them study skills,
introduce them to the campus at large, and assess their strengths and
weaknesses and provide them support services.  Of the last class I taught
there was ONE student out of 40 who evidenced taking any of the efforts
to heart.  Most of these kids act as if they feel they are OWED a semester
or two of unsuperivsed beer-drinking.  Their constantly expressed
attitude is "I'm PAYING for this, so I can do with it what I want!

The trouble is, of course, THEY aren't paying!  Parents or government
loans foot the bill.

I don't WANT classes with 2 out of 3 students like that in them!
Give me a student -- one with or without learning difficulties-- who
CARES and I'll teach/counsel my heart out.  I just don't buy this
mess about the teacher being the one who is responsible for a student's
attitude!

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:58:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>

Rob says:

"Big systems can be set up to work responsively. But Humanists have not been
high on the list of users for long, and our desires often are easy to
ignore. I was able to get access for the courses I started and the writing
class I designed there mainly because the sys-admin guy overheard me
talking about the system and access in one of the computer labs back in
1984. He said he thought he could work with me. The point is someone's got
to speak the language of the community we hope to have work with us and
help us along. The scientists and linguists (which is sort of how I got
into computing) have been speaking the comperterist's language for over two
decades. They know how to ask for what they need and how to determine
whether what they are told can/cannot be done is accurate. Some of us have
to develop that level of expertise and inform the rest of our
community."

Exactly.  We ignore all this at our own peril.  We do not want
the world to beat a path *around* our discipline and eventually
find us beside the point.  If you don't think that can happen,
you haven't studied the history of English and other disciplines.
Fred Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 11:07:58 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: ncte 93 & cccc 94?

Thanks for the clarification Jeff
From: R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Replying to Digest messages (18)
Date: 5 Nov 92 02:01:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"

Entry: 18
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 20:59:10 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Nov04.205910.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: Replying to Digest messages (18)
Reply-to: IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

In a personal message Dennis L Schenkel <dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
says
>I just noticed that you are forwarding C&CD to the Usenet. I think it's a great
>idea.  If I want to respond to any of the postings, should I post to
>comp.edu.composition or to some other place?

>Thanks for the info.
>Dennis Schenkel
>Grad Stu, Ohio State, English

The forwarding pattern is a little complex.  The usenet list
(comp.edu.composition) is usually a week or two behind the postings.  For
the fastest distribution to all recipients of MBU-L, comp.edu.composition,
and C&CD, send the message to C&CD (r0mill01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu).  For
wide, but possibly delayed distribution, send to comp.edu.composition via
your usenet newsreader.  To get in C&CD and very quickly to MBU-L, send to
mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet. Messages sent via this last method will not be gated
to usenet. MBU-L is available for usenet subscribtion via the alternate
news groups under the name `bit.listserv.mbu-l'.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
                                                            - Noam Chomsky

------------------------------
From: GKTEX@TTACS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Snow
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:59:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1"

Dickie,

Snow??!! Shut your mouth.  We haven't had any, though I heard there was a bit
further up the panhandle.  I can just imagine Houghton in white.  When does
the river speedway open up for the season?

We had some cold weather, maybe it even went below freezing one night.  Cold
here equals the 40s. :-D  You know Iowa in May kind of weather (If Bobby Lee
is reading this, Collin would like to let you know that the candy-asses from
Texas have amazingly reaclimated themselves to the weather down here).
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:27:06 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?
              92 10:09 am

> away from Gutenberg consciousness---but that's another issue).  And to be
> more reflexive about what one is up to---hell, that's a good thing, no?
>
> Joe Amato
>
Joe:
A good thing, yes.  But to be reflexive, I need to know more about
the other's language.  What's a stack?
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:35:36 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Test 2

THis is a test 2.
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:17:00 CST
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

Ellen,

Great point!

Michael
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:37:21 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

Dickie:  The kind of interactive problem-reporting is similar to MS
Window's Dr. Watson.  If you have a system crash under Windows 3.1 and
have Dr. Watson loaded, the system parameters and some other data are
saved in a file that the user can send to Microsoft for analysis.  What
I read in Dickie's post is both more sophisticated and immediate and is
intended for a mainframe/vax or similar environment; am I right?

dave roberts
samford unversity
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:33:01 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Remembering

I just took Don Stewart's card out of my Rolodex and I can't just toss
it in the trash.  I kept it in the file this long because I would pause
at his card every few days as I rummaged through the S's, trying to
find another number.

I have many fine memories and write this so that you will remember him
one more time--knowing that as I toss his card, I have forever filed
his memory.

dave roberts
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:54:29 CST
From:         "(McDonald James C)" <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject:      lurker/wallflower

I guess there are too many problems with the word "lurker" for it to continue
for long, but I for one liked that, just by reading MBU, I might be doing
something sinister.  It suggested dangerous possibilities to me that (I'm
sorry) I find a lot more fun than "browsing."  Stolen glances, life in the
shadows, shifty eyes--makes me feel like Snidely Whiplash when I spend the
day lurking.
  Don't like wallflower.  Who's to say I'm not dancing!
  Jim McDonald

    Kilroy was here!
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 12:26:00 EST
From:         "Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier" <RHODA%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Al Gore

Tex, if the new V.P can dance, does that mean he has AlGorithm?
Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:23:36 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Politically grumpy

Lady,
I
'm probably the only person on this list who's voted for Bill Clinton
more than once--three times for Gov, when I lived in Arkansas, and
two more this year in the primaries and gen'l election.  I just feel
that this campaign, to use George Will's word, has been "execrable,"
and when I find myself agreeing with Will, I worry.  I'm just sick
of hearing about politics for a while.  Overdosed.  Eyes glazed.
Feet far off the floor.  Ad Nauseum.
Bill
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Return-Path: <smh@aal.itd.umich.edu>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:24:20 EST
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      lurkers or wallflowers

Wes, Thanks for your note on wallflowers.  I'd been bothered by the
gendered nature of wallflower but in light of all the praise of the term
I'd wondered whether my sense of the word was shared by anyone else.
I think this discussion really does raise issues about silence in
discussion.  Silent people in FTF discussion contribute to the
discussion, often, with body language.  On-line, silence becomes something
decidedly more sinister (I agree w/your notion of lurker as predator),
and I have been wondering how to re-conceptualize that.  I see a student
approaching my office now, though, so I'll end this quickly.

Susanmarie Harrington
English Composition Board
University of Michigan
smh@aal.itd.umich.edu
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:25:54 EST
From:         "Alicia Conklin, CCNY" <ALCCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: MORE ON CLASSROOMS
              10 Nov 1992 22:48:05 -0500 from <KARRFALT@EDINBORO.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:48:05 -0500 <KARRFALT@EDINBORO.EDU> said:

>     In the same category with this behavior, I had always thought, is writing
>an entire essay project (reading notes, prewriting, outline, draft, completed
>essay) with pencil in a notebook and then coming to the computer room, whether
>in class or in an open lab, and "typing in" the essay.
>
>David Karrfalt
>Edinboro University of Pennsylvania
>Karrfalt@Edinboro.EDU

 David, I think you're expecting too much.  First, there is the question of
ACCESS; if your students can't get to all your nice tutorials and macros or
at least the basic wpg software easily (and that means, for all intents and
purposes, at home) they're not likely to use them.  It's analogous to the
help club membership: don't buy it unless it's directly on your way home or
within walking distance of home or work.  After all, they have their notebooks
with them virtually all the time, and pencils are readily available.  When they
have an idea on the subway (I'm in NYC), they can jot it down.  That's real
life writing.
Next, it's a fact that there is a long learning curve in coming to feel safe
and secure and confident in a new technology, and especially in changing old
ingrained habits--such as one's writing process.  Remember, they've spent their
entire academic lives writing papers the notebook and pen/night before way.

Does this mean I think it's impossible to make computer writers out of pen &
pencil writers?  Of course not, but it may be difficult under the conditions
you're working under.  How many hours a week are your students in the computer
lab with you?  One or two?  Then assign shorter papers, or papers in chunks,
that are doable mostly during lab time.  I'm teaching an ESL low basic writing
course right now where, in addition to keeping up with their reading journals
(about a page and a half every day) they have to write a 10,000 word "book"
over the second half of the term.  I have them for 9 hours a week, 6 of which
are in the lab.  Some of them handwrite first drafts and outlines in their
notebooks and then copy and edit when they're in the lab.  Some compose
directly on screen and have computers at home or spend time on the computers in
the library.  But I let them choose their own paper/on-screen process, and I
acknowledge that this is a stage in their development as writers and in their
learning curve.  As they do more writing in their academic career, they will
come to realize that there are more efficient ways of managing their writing
process, and it will alter and grow.  We can only show them the possibilities--
they are the ones who have to adapt what's available and doable to their
circumstances now.        --Alicia Conklin
From: jcm5337@USL.EDU ((McDonald James C))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: cheers for the Sumerians
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:48:08 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

A report on NPR this morning should not go unnoticed by this group.  The
Sumerians, the same people who gave us writing, also gave us beer.
  No graduate student in English, past or present, should be surprised.
      Jim McDonald
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:04:00 CST
From:         "brown, lady" <ykflb@TTACS1.TTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Clinton/Gore

Judith,
	All during the campaign, I kept wanting someone to create
a t-shirt that read:
		Hillary Clinton
		My kind of woman!

Of course, had I worn one to the Texas Tech football games, I
would have been stoned to death.  Amazing how Republican Lubbock
has become.  But I think that Hillary Clinton is a woman that
many of us admire.  Yea for her.
Lady Falls Brown, Texas Tech
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:14:21 CST
From:         WESCHAP@UIUCVMD.BITNET
Subject:      discard this test msg

test message
From: Paul_J_LeBlanc@CUP.PORTAL.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Multimedia
Date: 11 Nov 92 04:31:57 GMT
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Return-Path: <Paul_J_LeBlanc@cup.portal.com>
X-Origin: The Portal System (TM)

I would support Nancy's comments.  I think we need to move beyond
a sense of video, sound, and other media merely augmenting a "central"
essay.  Those other media can be more integral to the document being created.
My first year composition students are creating hypermedia "essays" that
incorporate various media and I can see the ways, in some cases, that
the non-textual elements of their work influence the text and vice versa.
There is a kined of layered richness to some of these works in which text is
not much more important than the other elements present therein.

Paul LeBlanc
Springfield College.

P.S. I'll say this about the IBM Ulysess videotape: it helped the sell the
foundation that paid for our hypermedia classroom and now we can go on to
do the things we think are important.
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