HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Roger_Nordin@atb.bbs.bad.se (Roger Nordin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: A4000 Processor
Date: 11 Oct 92 11:09:44 GMT
Reply-To: Roger_Nordin@atb.bbs.bad.se (Roger Nordin)
Organization: ANet Test Bench, Karlstad, Sweden
OD-Comment-To: Internet_Gateway

> Someone stated recently that the A4000
> had a 68EC040 processor (without MMU or FPU).  Is this true?

Don't worry. The A4000 uses a real high-power turbo-intercooled 68040, no 
crippled stuff like the EC or LC models.

I heard someone mentioning that the documentation for the A4000 states it uses 
a 68EC040 and even describing how to upgrade to a real 68040. :) I guess this 
is the root of all these rumours. It seems C= decided in the last minute to go 
for a real 68040. Thanks C=.

                        _       .    __
    Roger Nordin     _ //      /!Net /est Bench
 2:203/602.0@fidonet \X/  Internet: Roger_Nordin@bad.se

---
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: A4000 Hardware questions
Date: 8 Oct 92 22:12:14 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <AHANSFOR.92Oct8001638@ee.WPI.EDU> ahansfor@ee.WPI.EDU (Andrew L. Hansford) writes:
> 
> I assume the A4000 still uses the 8520's.  Are there any plans to fold
> the functionaliy of these into a CMOS ASIC design?

We've considered this from time to time and may do it in the future,
but the problem is that these are the kind of IC's that Commodore
can make very cheaply in the in-house IC fab and conversion of olde
custom NMOS chips to ASIC's isn't neccessarily as straightforward
as you would expect.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: brianc@iastate.edu (Brian J Cerveny)
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:33:03 GMT

In <BvzsnG.G00@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:

>   Yes, straight from the Commodore Line.  The problem is that the increase
>in resolution is a lie.  From the A3000 to the A4000 (actually, from any Amiga
>with a display enhancer to the A4000) the non-interlaced resolution did not
>increase at all, but actually decreased.

>>/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
>>|      /// Michael Sinz  -  Senior Amiga Systems Engineer              |
>>|     ///                   Operating System Development Group         |
>>|    ///   BIX:  msinz      UUNET:  mks@cbmvax.commodore.com           |
>>|\\\///                                                                |
>>| \XX/     "I think not." said Ren'e Descartes, then he vanished.      |
>>\----------------------------------------------------------------------/

Marc, why didn't you just say, "Mr. Sinz, I realize you were a designer of
the A4000, but you really don't know anything about the machine nor its
capabilities."
-- 
   // Brian J. Cerveny (brianc@iastate.edu)
 \X/  Disclaimer:  The views expressed above are my own.  So there.
From: Thomas_Agatz@pitstop.bbs.bad.se (Thomas Agatz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy a
Date: 11 Oct 92 03:26:59 GMT
Reply-To: Thomas_Agatz@pitstop.bbs.bad.se (Thomas Agatz)
Organization: PitStop Amiga BBS   Copenhagen, Denmark   +45 31197459
OD-Comment-To: Roger_Nordin

Hi Roger !

In a message of 09-Oct-92 you wrote:

 RN> system in my eyes. The A4000 is more focused on graphics, especially
 RN> video work, and seems to sacrifice other areas of the system design.
 RN> One area that particluary annoys at least me is the 2Mb CHIP RAM
 RN> limit. The A4000 introduces screen resolutions which consumes four
 RN> times as much memory, but does not offer any more CHIP RAM to store
 RN> those four times a large screens in. I never run out of CHIP RAM on my
 RN> A3000 during normal operation, but I can easily use 1.5Mb CHIP RAM.
 RN> There's not much left, but it's enough. But what about if I started
 RN> using an A4000? Then I would probably be using more flashier colours
 RN> in most places, thus eating up much much more CHIP RAM. 2Mb would
 RN> suddenly not be enough for normal operation -- at least I would feel
 RN> the limit, and would be annoyed.

I had an interview with Commodore last week, where i got the chance to see
the A4000 from the inside, and they told me that you easily could expand
to 8mb of chip RAM.

 RN> When the A4000 comes with 8Mb CHIP RAM and on-board SCSI host adaptor,
 RN> then I will admit it's an "obvious upgrade" as compared to an A3000.

It it obviously that Commodore want to support all those people that uses
the Amiga for professional graphical use. In my opinion, it's a very wise
to do, especially on the american market.

__  __                                                            __  __
\ \/ /  Thomas Agatz                           Fido: 2:230/311.0  \ \/ /
 \/\/   PitStop Amiga BBS                   AmiNet: 39:141/107.0   \/\/
 /\/\             UseNet/BadNet: Thomas_Agatz@pitstop.bbs.bad.se   /\/\
/_/\_\  HoA   SAN   ADS   APDN   24h   HST   220mb   68030/68882  /_/\_\
---
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:02:52 GMT

In article <Bw49x5.8wq@lysator.liu.se> boberg@lysator.liu.se (Stefan Boberg) writes:
>skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>
>>In article <35767@cbmvax.commodore.com> mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz) writes:
>>>grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
>>BTW, no one has said anything about the new hires and superhires sprites.
>>Can the mouse cursor be in one of these modes?  I hope so, as the lores
>>sprite has driven me crazy for years and is very pitiful looking compared
>>to the rest of the Workbench.
>
>  Of course the cursor can be in hires!

Thank goodness.  I can't stand the lores sprite on my A3000, especially 
when compared to the rather sophisticated look of the Workbench.  The
sprite is the last remnant of the old cartoon-look with huge icons from
1.x that so has haunted us for so long.  

>>Speaking of the palette, the color wheel looks nice, but is it possible to
>>get a slider-type palette selector instead?  I've used the color wheels on
>>the Mac and Winslows and personally think they are a bad idea.
>
>  I'm not sure what you mean by this, but just in case you don't know you
>can choose between having Colorwheel+RGB sliders  or Colorwheel+HSB sliders.

Great!  I've not yet seen 2.1 or 3.0 and was worried that the color wheel
was the only way to change the palette.  Again, some might prefer this method,
but personally I'd rather have the precision of the sliders.

>>Also, you guys seem to be working towards RTG and with that I'd guess you'll
>>have to resort to some sort of color-sharing scheme.  Others may disagree,
>>but I don't want other programs messing with my palette.  Under Windows and
>>the Mac, I've often become quite upset when each new application screws up
>>the color palette.  The "best fit" is definitely not.
>
>  This is already available in ADOS R3! You give the OS a list of the colors
>you want (in RBG32 format) and the OS gives you a pen-array back with the
>best choices. You can also allocate pens on your own if you want to play
>around with the colors (change them with SetRGB32 for instance). Very nice!

If I understand you correctly, then the user has the ultimate control over
the palette instead of the applications programmer.  Under Windows, every
time a picture the palette is changed, totally screwing up anything else
that might be on a screen.  This may seem to be a minor point to some,
but it really drives me nuts when the palette is constantly changing.

Skip Sauls
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: Boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl (Paul Kolenbrander)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:50:06 MET
Reply-To: boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl (Paul Kolenbrander)
Distribution: world
Organization: System Information 2.0 Development
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <Bw57Lz.8D4@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
> >>   The A2024 monitor sucks anymore.  1008x800 is not all that high of a 
> >>resolution, and it is strictly monochrome.  Besides, the A2024 still costs
> >>the Earth.
> >
> >It does 1024x1024 and costs about $200.
> 
>    That's for the 50Hz mode, which would flicker intolerably.  The
> highest resolution you can get on an A2024 60Hz is 1024x800.
> 
>    BTW, where could I get one for $200?

Come to Europe next month and visit the WoC in Frankfurt. They will
almost surely be on sale there. Otherwise I have dealer's addresses
who sell it around that price...

> ---
> | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu

-- 
    O
  //\/
 \/\ boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl
.../ Danger: Happy A4000 owner on these premises!
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R. Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Re: A4000/Alice
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:44:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1beqtjINNncr
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <35810@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>jumpers, it's only going to get you in trouble.  NEVER EVER mess with a PCB
>jumper you don't understand, even if it's labelled "SEX AND FREE BEER".  

Oh, but why not?  :)

You've got this amazing knack for really neat one liners.  You've made
it into my sig for the second time in a row, now.  I've got so many
quotes on my wall that its beginning to look like the bathroom at a
newspaper-printing company.  :)

>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Cool Advanced High-End Systems You Can't See Yet)
> "The Crew That Never Rests"  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh   BIX: hazy
>              "I got a pocket full of kryptonite" -Spin Doctors

Ahh.  Good to see you're back to normal music.  :D

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: 	NEVER EVER mess with a PCB jumper you don't understand,       :)
(:	even if it's labelled "SEX AND FREE BEER". -Dave Haynie	      :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
From: aces@mcode.amdahl.com (Jeffrey D. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy an A3000 now?
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:38:53 GMT
Reply-To: jds30@amail.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale Ca.

In article <1992Oct7.194433.7333@news.iastate.edu>, barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
> In article <1992Oct7.124137.14637@city.cs> lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:
> >The price drop in the A3000 has affected 2nd hand prices and I
> >am being offered one for 1200 pounds. I was thinking of getting
> >this rather than an accelerated A2000.
> >
> >The question is: is it foolish to get an A3000 in terms of
> >future upgrade/compatability?
[lots of incredibly stupid M.Barrett stuff deleted]

I don't know the current exchange rate, so I cannot compare
your A3000 cost to $US.  Consider the A4000 (maybe a tower
version).  The A2000 has its place, but the technology is
showing its age.  I like my loaded A2000, but I certainly
want to buy the A4000 (later).  I am not considering the
A3000 anymore.

I think it comes down to whether you can justify the cost
difference between the A3000 and the A4000. The A4000 offers
the 68040 and AGA chipset, but you can get 68040 cards for
the A3000 (which adds to the final cost).  As for the AGA
in the A3000, this appears to be doubtful.  24-bit color
may be another consideration.

On the practical side, I am waiting a few months for two
reasons: (1) I don't have the money for the A4000, (2) I am
expecting some bugs to shake out of the A4000. (The A4000
appears to be rushed to market.  The IDE foolishness would
have been caught had cooler heads prevailed.  The A4000 is
a professional workstation and it needs SCSI; my $.02 worth.)

Cheers.
From: Aric.Caley@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy a
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Oct  1 1992
Date: 08 Oct 92  10:08:02

>   No.  The A3000 is far more advanced than the A4000 in terms of non-
> interlaced display resolution.

No, it's NOT.

> And the A3000 offers most of the expandability
> of the A4000.  The only thing that the A4000 has that the A3000 does not
> have is the 24-bit video slot.

The A4000 also has:

8 bits in all resolutions.
262144 colour HAM in all resolutions.
AmigaOS 3.0
25Mhz 68040 on a replacable module.
Graphics modes that on the A3000 would be real slow, are faster on the
  A4000; such as 640 x 400 x 16 colours.
Memory upgrades with SIMM modules.
5.25" drive bay.

>   I am actively advising people to ignore the A4000, purchase A3000s
> instead,
> and upgrade them later with third-party video cards as soon as DIG is
> available.

I am actively advising people to ignore you.

> -!-
> | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
> -!------------------------------------------------
>             A4000: JUST SAY NO!!!

I think you need a new signature:

 -!-
 | Marc "I Have No Idea What  | email: barrett@iastate.edu
 | I'm Talking About" Barrett | "Could someone buy me a clue?"
 -!------------------------------------------------


--- Maximus 2.00
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Is it silly to buy an A3000 now?
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:08:07 GMT

In <1992Oct7.194433.7333@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
>   No.  The A3000 is far more advanced than the A4000 in terms of non-
>interlaced display resolution.  And the A3000 offers most of the expandability
>of the A4000.  The only thing that the A4000 has that the A3000 does not have
>is the 24-bit video slot.  

Marc, please stop posting desinformation or leave that in .advocacy.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: kopnicky@owlnet.rice.edu (Lyle Warren Kopnicky)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: A4000 320x200 and 640x200 modes
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:31:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: rice.Bw4xCF.Ixp
Organization: Rice University

I understand there are programs that will software-promote 640x400 into
Productivity mode.  However, what about 320x200, 320x400 and 640x200?
How are these handled?  Assuming all software worked properly (unlike
DPaint IV), would you be able to have all software NOT using the SuperHires
mode promote properly to a 31.5 KHz rate?  (Not including 800x600,
obviously.)
	My point is, could you display all but 1280 modes with a monitor
syncing at 24KHz and 31.5KHz?

+----------------------------Ren & Stimpy--------------------------------+
| "Psst. Hey Guido. It's all so clear to me now. I'm the keeper of the   |
| cheese. And you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it. That's |
| why he's gonna kill us. So we gotta beat it. Yeah. Before he lets      |
| loose the marmosets on us! Don't worry, little missy! I'll save you!"  |
+--------------- Quantum Seep -- kopnicky@owlnet.rice.edu ---------------+
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:01:10 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Oct12.033445.22970@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dmacphee@nyx.cs.du.edu (Don mac phee) writes:
>  The Alice has a 2M-8M jumper, yet every user on the face of the .net
> has been told to keep their mitts off of it. Me, I see that as tossing
> a raw sirloin steak in front of the dog pound. One of those puppys are
> going to EAT that steak. So please tell us, What does that jumper do?

As I've already said, we made provision in the Agnus->Alice pinout change
for addressing 8M-byte of memory as a future possibility, however we didn't
end up implementing the internal changes to make the pins work.  The jumper
on the PCB is useless.

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing:   uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department     domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Subject: Re: Photo-CD on Amiga/CDTV
Keywords: Photo-CD, CDTV
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:52:19 GMT

Craig Ganoe writes:
> [...] and I've seen at least two current magazines, New Media and Popular
> Photography (and I believe there was another) that have said that CDTV
> will support Photo-CD in the near future.
 
Perhaps a newer CDTV model might.  The old one would need a display upgrade,
plus (almost certainly) a CD drive upgrade for multisession capability.

> Commodore also should be working with Philips on whatever MPEG FMV
> CD movie standard they plan to make available for CD-I.  I think both
> companies would benefit from having the standard more widely recognized.

I think Philips' standard is already recognized, whether or not Commodore
is able to add CD-I FMV capability to CDTV.  Matsushita just announced
that they'll be selling a FMV-equipped CD-I player early next year.  Sony
has already shown theirs.  Samsung, Daewoo, Goldstar, Kyocera, Pioneer,
JVC and others have also built or announced players.  (It's been clear
for a while now that most companies have been waiting for FMV
before entering the CD-I market in full force.)

> As one magazine put it, PCD players, CDTV, and CD-I right now aren't
> in a competition against each other, the real competition is to get the
> general population to know that these machines exist before cheap CD
> add-ons appear for existing video games.
 
OTOH, cheap game CD addons could help other players because they'd
increase consumer awareness of other CD uses/applications.

regards - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: jyork@iastate.edu (Justin York)
Subject: Re: Can anyone suggest a solution?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:22:48 GMT

In <jyork.718939157@pv343d.vincent.iastate.edu> jyork@iastate.edu (Justin York) writes:


>One note: the guru error is almost always 00000004.????????
>which (according to the Amiga C Manual) signifies an Illegal
>Instruction. Is there a way to test for (or fix) this?
 
I am now getting 81000009 errors periodically, and avail reports that I
have 1.7 GIGABYTES of memory!!! I don't know if this is a by-product of
adding the memory to the autoconfig area, or some other program is 
munching my vectors. The version of csa-mmr that I have (it configs the
memory) reports that it is version 1.0. Is there a newer version?
The Amiga C Manual says that this error is "Freeing memory already freed".
The second part of the guru address is 00000006 which means something IS
munching my vectors. Is there a quick way to prevent this? (maybe using
the MMU?)
 
					Justin York
					jyork@iastate.edu
From: Roger_Nordin@atb.bbs.bad.se (Roger Nordin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: The A4000
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:50:53 GMT
Reply-To: Roger_Nordin@atb.bbs.bad.se (Roger Nordin)
Organization: ANet Test Bench, Karlstad, Sweden
OD-Comment-To: Internet_Gateway

> Yes, this is an issue, but it is mainly an issue of incompatible needs.
> That is, if you are using a genlock, are you not also doing video?

Probably. :)

> are doing video, are you not using video display modes?

Yes...

> And, since video
> is needed, are you not interested in getting interlaced video

As an output to the video recorder/genlock/mixer/whatever, yes. But not for 
the monitor you use for your computer.

> Right, George.  How many people will need both?

As I said, some. But that's what not the issue, I was merely pointing out a 
difference. If you feel it's of importance to you, or not, is up to you...

> Anyway, the major need for the market of the Amiga was addressed.

Yes, except for perhaps a bit more chip ram. But I hear this will be addressed 
RSN, which is good to hear.

> Notice that the PC market has 97% of the machines shipping with IDE as
> the *only* hard drive interface.  Notice also that this has not prevented
> much in the way of sales or usability.

The PC isn't aimed as a multimedia computer, really. MS-DOS is selling good, 
widespread, the industry standard, and...a piece of junk, IMNSHO. :) This is 
not intended to suggest that IDE/AT is a piece of junk, too, only that the 
fact that a bunch of boring PC machines using a special thing, doesn't mean it'
s a Good Thing.

> Now, for me, I need SCSI.  So do others.  However, it is not a reason to
> call the machine useless.

No, but it makes it a not so obvious upgrade for us with an A3000, as some 
people here insist on claiming it is.

> that the SCSI board will be made and that highend machines will be
> introduced with it on the motherboard in the future)

Sounds promising! Waiting eagerly. :)

                        _       .    __
    Roger Nordin     _ //      /!Net /est Bench
 2:203/602.0@fidonet \X/  Internet: Roger_Nordin@bad.se

---
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE vs. SCSI costs.
Date: 15 Oct 92 07:25:03 EST
Distribution: world
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <OA92-901-306p1_DD3FE486@piraya.bad.se>, Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren) writes:
> 
>  GR> This especially comes across in the flaming about the IDE drive.  Nobody
>  GR> seems to want to really talk about how well it works or doesn't, just
>  GR> that SCSI is what they think it should have and *everyone* should pay for.
> 
	The IDE interface works great.  You did a good enginneering job.

> TELL ME: How many bucks does CBM save on the IDE interface in the A4000 vs.
> the SCSI in A3000? How much of this reflects on the consumer price of the
> A4000? CBM can keep on rambling about how much cheaper IDE is vs. SCSI, but if
> it all matters about a few nickles, why bother at all with IDE?
> 

	The A4000 is a nice machine.  But IMHO the price is just on the edge
	and for people that need SCSI they will have to shell out another
	$300.00.  (CBM will probably have some ridiculous price on their
	SCSI-II card) 

>  GR> Nowhere near as many folks as should have have SCSI attached backup
>  GR> devices.
> 
	A fair amount of them will be loyal Amiga customers that are moving
	from A2000s with SCSI devices they have paid good money for and would
	like to attach same to the A4000.

> Any sane person with a harddisk larger than 150 MB would buy a streamer if
> (s)he could afford it. Backup to disk is a nightmare, EVERYONE knows this.
> 
>  GR> All the A4000 does is say that folks with special needs have to pay some
>  GR> increment over the base model to address those needs.
> 

	See point 2 above.

> Considering the power machine the A4000 really is, it is remarkable that CBM
							^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> has made this decision. IDE backup devices are by no means easy to come by,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	This decision was obviously made in the Bahamas after the marketing
	guys had too many pinna-coladas and started worrying about their year
	end bonuses.

> I've NEVER seen them advertised anywhere, and attaching one effectively halves
> your IDE expandability. Even more funny is that CBM waits until next year to
> announce a SCSI controller for the A4000...
> 

	The SCSI issue and the sloooow HD drive are my main beefs with the
	A4000.  Unacceptable. 

> 
>   InterNET/BadNET: Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (92:901/603.1)
>           FidoNET: Hogen BBS, 2:203/511.7@fidonet
>    /  /
>   /--/
>  /  /B - No Mr. Nice-Guy Anymore...
> 
> --- Point Manager 3.00 Beta Unreg.
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **