From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Shroud exposed at early date (Tim O'Neill)
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<LEET.92Aug25122827@dove.ims.com>
	<1992Aug27.020603.22208@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:53:17 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:06:03 GMT, Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) said:

Tim> THE SHROUD DEBATE CONTINUES

Or, "STURP und Dreng, The Sequel".

Tim> In article <LEET.92Aug25122827@dove.ims.com>, leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:

> What I'm saying is that the dirt appeared only
> on the feet, and was only found by one of the scanners (I'll get the
> correct story from Heller's book).

Reflectance spectroscopy showed a difference only in the heel image -
nowhere else on the shroud.

> This makes Joe Nickell's thesis
> (cloth wrapped around a statue/mannekin/corpse) more likely than one
> that has an artist painting on the shroud/canvas.  But it also means
> that either the faker thought of this detail deliberately for
> authenticity, but got other details "wrong", or else the dirt was
> accidental.  

Tim> I'd go for accidental.

The problem there is that the dirt appears nowhere else - if the
statue was carved on a dirty floor, it should have left dirt elsewhere
on the shroud - at least, there should be traces of soil on the "back"
image which are absent on the "front".  Carving the statue in an
upright position would have been unreasonably difficult.  Also, the
entire foot should have shown an even coating of dirt.

Heller gives the following results to show that the "blood" is
really blood (his primary involvement in the project):
    1. High iron in blood areas by X-ray fluorescence
    2. Indicative reflection spectra
    3. Indicative microspectrophotometric transmission spectra
    4. Chemical generation of characteristic porphyrin fluorescence
    5. Positive hemochromogen tests
    6. Positive cyanomethemoglobin tests
    7. Positive detection of bile pigments
    8. Positive demonstration of protein
    9. Positive indication of albumin
   10. Protease tests, leaving no residue
   11. Positive immunological test for human albumin
   12. Microscopic appearance as compared with appropriate controls
   13. Forensic judgement of the appearance of the various wound and
         blood marks.
All this is to blow away McCrone's contention that the red stuff is paint.
They explain the presence of iron oxide as part of the retting process
used to produce the cloth, and note that the water stains from dousing
the fire caused the oxide to concentrate in the stain areas.

Tim> I think a lot more research has to be done on the artefact to determine
Tim> how the image was produced. I am not totally convinced by any of the 
Tim> current hypotheses as I understand them, though I am inclined toward the
Tim> idea that it is a painting.

Heller notes that any painting must have been done without the help of
an organic substrate, since the fire scorch caused no discoloration of
the image.  Also, the image appears only in the topmost microfibrils
of the cloth, and there is no capillarity or matting (as there is in
the bloodstain areas).  Hence, the paint-or-whatever never soaked into
the actual threads - pretty tricky.  Additionally, no directionality
can be detected in the image, so brushstrokes were not used (maybe a
roller? :-).

Tim> Post your reference by all means, but Heller is in disagreement with Dr
Tim> Gilbert Raes of the Ghent Institute of Textile Technology who examined
Tim> the shroud fabric in 1973. Herringbone twill is impossible to date with
Tim> any precision, since it was so widely used for such a long time, but
Tim> according to Raes *all* surviving 1st century examples of linen, from
Tim> mummy wrappings to the cloth in which some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were
Tim> wrappped, were of tabby weave. If Heller cites an example of herringbone
Tim> twill from the 1st century I would be interested to check his source.

Heller does not discuss the textile issue, but Stevenson and Habermas
do (_Verdict_on_the_Shroud, Servant Books, 1981).  They claim that
Raes's results support their (vociferously pro-authenticity) position.
I suppose we'll just have to find Raes's original work.  An email
correspondent noted that there is a sample of 2nd century silk in
herringbone weave, but that no twill of that weave survived.  (The
correspondent - who did not give permission to reveal their name -
said this confirms your position, Tim, but I find that the weave was
known in 200 A.D. seems to support the idea that herringbone is not
unique to the Middle Ages.)

Heller DOES note that cotton fibers were found wound in with the twill
fibers, indicating that the cloth was woven on a loom which had also
woven cotton cloth.  No cotton is grown in Europe, but it is grown in
the Middle East (sez Heller).

Stevenson and Habermas argue with many references that mummification
was not practiced by 1st century Jews.  They quote from the Mishna and
"Laws of Mourning".

Tim> Chevalier claimed, back in the 19th century, that it is interesting that
Tim> the shroud is exactly the length that a piece of linen was when it was 
Tim> taken from the loom of the kind used in the Troyes area in the late 
Tim> Middle Ages.
  
> One of the early researchers claimed to see genitalia on the image.

Tim> Where? The hand is in the way.

Find the navel and work downward ... :-)  I dunno, I just remember
seeing that remark in print in a book (Wilson's, I think).  I
distinctly remember how that claim got lots of people upset.

Tim> I find the fact that some creationists have got up on the shroud
Tim> bandwagon just as all the catholics were getting off it very
Tim> interesting.

Officially the Catholic Church was never on the bandwagon, but I
suppose you mean the average Catholic layman, which is true.
Actually, I know very few if any Creationists who are pro-shroud - it
is the historical apologeticists like Habermas who are so committed to
authenticity.

Tim> But you can't be a real Creationist as you appear to have both a
Tim> sense of humour and an open mind.

And I'm not a Fundamentalist, either, since I'm NOT happy that you're
going to Hell.  I wish more skeptics would quit trying to shove eagles
into pigeon-holes.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew
Integrated Measurement Systems |  their strength; they shall mount up with
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  wings like eagles, they shall run, and not
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  be weary, they shall walk, and not faint."
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  - Isaiah 40:31