Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: some gods are _not_ creaters of all things, apparently
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:26:44 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:

>In article <adams.713105930@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>><adams.712847954@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>>>><adams.712335175@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>>>>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>...
>>>Omniscient...  Hmmm...  There are scriptures in Genesis (I'm at work right
>>>now so I don't have a bible) where Adam and Eve *hide* from god, and he
>>>asks them why they hid from him.  Doesn't sound omniscient.
>>
>>Ever hear of a rhetorical question?  Compare this verse (Gen 3:9) with the
>>questioning of Cain (Gen 4:9).  God knows what has happened, but challenges
>>man to admit it.

>In the second example I can see the possiblity of a setup, yes I agree.
>But not in the first example.  Also, can you tell me who god was talking
>to when Adam and Eve heard him coming?  
The NIV says that they 'heard the sound of the Lord'...not heard him
talking.  I suspect God would have heavy footsteps...;-)

>And, not to change the subject,
>but if Adam and Eve were truly the mother and father of the entire race,
>then who did Cain marry?  In 4:17, after god banishes him, Cain goes off
>and gets married.  Who did he marry?  His sister?
Oh goody, my favorite question from Genesis.  The answer to which usually
gets me royally flamed by my fundamentalist friends...;-)

Yes, the usual answer to the question is that he married one of his
sisters, and that Adam & Eve had other children prior to this, they just
aren't mentioned.  Ahem.

Anyhow, my own personal opinion differs massively.  It has to do with my
own understanding of Gen 1:1-2:4 and Gen 2:5ff.  Basically, on day 6 of
creation (Gen 1:27ff) God creates man and woman.  THEN He rests on day 7.
Then, in Gen 2:4 He plants a garden and creates Adam.  God brings all of
the animals to Adam in search for a 'helper', and they are all rejected.
After this, God creates Eve, etc.

Basically, when Cain is banished from the area around Eden, he marries one
of the 'Day 6' people...

The situation of Adam & Eve is that they were to parent the chosen people
in Eden, but blew it and were thence kicked out into the world....

My own opinion, but it works for me.  I have other opinions on Gen 1:1-2:4
which are related, and if you're interested, mail me.  Or if demand is
great (yeah, right!) I'll post.

>>>When Jesus is cruxified he supposedly looks up and begs forgiveness for
>>>his executiioners.  Why would god be mad that they executed his "son"?  He
>>>supposedely would know this.  Heck, it was *required* that they execute
>>>him, else there wouldn't be a salvation.
>>That doesn't mean they can't be forgiven?  Christ showed that we are, no
>>matter what the circumstances, and whatever happens, to forgive those who
>>do an injustice against us.
>>

>I wasn't commenting on the forgiveness aspect but the anger aspect.  Your
>god *ordained* that Jesus must die.  He set it up that way, on purpose.
>Why would an omnipotent being do something that he *knows* will just make
>him angry later?

God's goal, in my opinion, (and if I can speak to this, which is quite an
presumption on my part) was freely given love and freely ordained worship.
God, in order to gain this, had to allow for the possibility of evil.  Once
He had decided to start creation, he knew what would happen, but set about
it anyway, in order to gain this freely given love.  I wrote a paper on the
good/evil aspects (ie theodicy) for a class about a year ago....

>>>In another viewpoint of his cruxifiction he supposedly crys out to his
>>>"father", "Why have you forsaken me?".  Is this because Jesus missed the
>>>memo where his earthly death was required?  (I bring this up because many
>>>Christians believe Jesus *WAS* god, as in *the exact same being*)
>>No, not at all.  Jesus knew that the Father (remember the Trinity?) was in
>>control of the situation, and Jesus would obey.  Look at what transpired in
>>Gethsemenee.  Jesus asked that the outcome be changed, but bowed to the
>>Father's will.  No contradiction.  God, the Father, left His son to die an
>>ignoble death.

>This doesn't explain why Jesus is apparently unware of the reasons behind
>his death.

Jesus gave up some of his divine powers so that He could truly suffer as a
man.

>>>Also, your god seems surprised by the amount of evil in the world just
>>>before he floods the entire globe.
>>
>>Not at all.  He was grieved that men were doing the amount of evil that
>>they were.  Even though God knew in advance, that doesn't mean he wasn't
>>saddened and offedned.

>It seems to me that he should get it right the second time, but he didn't.

One of the unavoidable aspects of creation was evil.  Basically, the one
and only thing that God (cannot/will not) do is create another god.  Thus,
whatever He creates is slightly less perfect and slightly less good than
He.  Or, to look at it another way, God being the 'best', the created being
is the 'worst'...God being the most 'good', the created being is the most
'evil' thing in existence.  Not evil per se, but more so than God.

>>>Many Christians seem unwilling to admit that their god perpetrated heinous
>>>acts against innocents which put Hitler to shame.  They shout "God can do
>>>no wrong.  He is just no matter what he does."  But it doesn't make it so.
>>Perhaps in your opinion.  I haven't been unwilling at all.  

>I qualified my statement.  I didn't mean you specifically.

You're right.  Sorry.

>>perspective of men, these acts were despicable.  But, and I know you refuse
>>to accept this reasoning, God can do as He pleases.  He has no requirement
>>to justify Himself to us.  Look at what happened when Job asked God to do
>>exactly this...

>Once again, "might makes right".

Being God makes Him right....I concede that!  It's part of the definition!

>>>>Since He's also your creator, and is sovereign, you belong to Him, and He
>>>>may do with you as He pleases.  You may not like it, but that is the
>>>>Scriptural witness.
>>
>>>In *your* opinion and belief.
>>
>>No, that IS the Scriptural witness.  You can deny the truth of Scripture.
>>You can deny the existence of God.  You cannot deny the witness of the
>>Scripture.  If you want to say it was all made up out of whole cloth, fine.

>I see no evidence to support the contentions of the bible.  With all the
>errors in the bible it hardly qualifies as reliable.

That's perfectly valid opinion.  We disagree on the topic, and it is
unlikely that I will convince you to change, or vice-versa.  I'll respect
your opinion, if you'll respect mine....course that means ya gotta listen
to me...;-)...or ignore me...you chose!  Ya never know, someday you might
just change your opinoin.

>>I don't think so, and the witness is fairly clear.  Isaiah 45 is an
>>excellent chapter to explain this, along with Job 38, 39, 40, 41, 42.
>>Extremely clear witness.  

>Extremely clear second and third hand witness written down in some cases
>*years* after the events in question.  I can find any number of science
>fiction books that will give you clear witness to events that *never
>happened*.

Actually, Isaiah is a contemporary witness...(although it may have been
written in two parts)...if you want to talk about 2nd and 3rd hand, you can
go for some of the modern theories of the composition of the Pentateuch or
the Gospels.

>>Once again, you don't have to believe in the book, or what it stands for.
>>But it *IS* clear that this is what it says.

>I agree that the bible has statements in it that describe a god and state
>that he is all-powerful.  It also contains statements that describe this
>god as being jealous, temperamental, forgetful, homocidal, and the creator
>of evil.  All the fun elements of the human race.

That is true...especially since God made us in His own image...;-)  And
ascribes to Himself some of these attributes...

>>>>Once again, you don't have to believe any of this.  I would like you to,
>>>>but it is not up to me...it's up to you...and in the end, up to God.
>>
>>>Hey, this is one of the best conversations I've had on the net about
>>>religion, Christianity specifically.  Thanks for the replies.
>>
>>You're welcome.  It's been a challenge for me, too.  Thanx yourself.

>It's tough to keep up on this thread though.  This damn work-stuff gets in
>the way. ;-)

That is true...;-)  Gotta do SOMETHING to get paid...hmm, I wonder if I
could get a job that paid for posting to the net? ;-)

>The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
>of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Ditto for me...;-)

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558