From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (28th)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 20:24:36 GMT

mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>  Since when did Israel become a democracy?

Mokhtar shows a near total misconception of the meaning of democracy,
as well as a misunderstanding of the word no.  In democracies, the
governments rule with the consent of the citizens.  It is
theoretically possible for a democracy to exist without the freedoms
customarily associated with democracies.

However, even Mokhtar's complaints about lack of freedoms in Israel
are rather extreme overreations to fairly moderate policies of a
government besieged by enemies bent on its destruction.

>  - There is no freedom of expression, for example, displaying the Palestinian
>    flag is illegal. Israel is no democracy.

Mokhtar has his example backwards.  If the Israeli government
permitted the display of the terrorist PLO flag, against the wishes of
the vast majority of its citizens, that would be undemocratic.  In
this particular case, Israel's small restriction on freedom of
expression (while maintaining far more freedom of expression than any
of its neighbors) is both democratic and reasonable.  The display of
the PLO flag is a call to destroy Israel, and in most nations such
calls are called treason and are illegal.

An interesting comparison may be made with the restrictions many here
in America would like to make regarding the burning of the American
flag.  True democracy here would mandate that the will of the people
be honored, and flag burning banned.  But our Constitution is designed
to place limits on democracy;  indeed, in a true democracy, no
Constitution would be needed.

Most laws that governments pass restrict freedoms in some manner.  To
say that Israel is not a democracy because its government restricts
some treasonous acts is absurd.

>  - There is no freedom of association, it is illegal to associate with PLO
>    members. Israel is no democracy

See above.

>  - It is an apartheid state. The laws are _very_ different for Jews and
>    for non-Jews, especially as far as immigration rights are concerned.
>    A Palestinian born and raised in Jerusalem cannot return while a total
>    stranger from Russia is welcomed, given citizenship and accomodation.
>    Israel is no democracy.

The laws are the same for all citizens,  Jew and non-Jew.  All nations
have laws regulating immigration, and those laws do not apply to
citizens (by their very nature).

Arabs who were born and raised in Jerusalem, and remained there, have
just as much right to be Israeli citizens as any Jew.  Those Arabs who
left in 1948, planning to return over the graves of their Jewish
neighbors, voluntarily gave up their rights and cannot expect to be
treated the same way as Jews whose anscestors were forcibly evicted
from their homeland.
  
>  - There is no respect for human rights. Torture of Palestinians and killing
>    the relatives of suspects is common. Destroying the homes if innocent
>    people is common. Shutting down schools and universities is common. Denying
>    building permits or permits for digging wells is common. Israel is no
>    democracy.

It's easy to make up and repeat such fictions.  They're simply not
true.

>  - Taxation without representation. Ask anyone from the occupied territories.
>    Israel is no democracy.

The territories are not part of Israel.  These comments could just as
well apply to Peurto Rico or the US Virgin Islands.

>  - Elections are not free. Mayors elected in the occupied territories were
>    removed one by one, till the very last one. Israel is no democracy.

See above.

>  - Israel is in violation of numerous UN resolutions. Israel is no democracy.

That's the same UN that passed the infamous "Zionism is Racism"
resolution, thus losing any credibility it might have had in the
Arab-Israeli conflict.  One cannot take any of those automatic
anti-Israel resolutions seriously.

>  - Israel is occupying Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese territories. Israel
>    is no democracy.

Palestinian territory?  There is no such thing, since there has never
been an independent entity called Palestine.  Of course, even that
ignores the reason they captured the territories--self defense when
Jordan, which had been illegally occupying Judea and Samaria,
attacked.  Similarly, Israel went up the Golan Heights to protect its
citizens, who were being bombarded by Syrians on the Heights, and went
into Lebanon (the vast majority of which is now occupied by Syria) for
the same basic reason.  And, until recently, none of the surrounding
Arab states were even willing to consider negotiating a peace that
would enable a territorial compromise.

>  No equality, no freedom, no justice, no representation, what remains ?

No sense of history or democracy in the irrational post that I've just
responded to.

>  Israeli democracy is a myth.

Fact, not myth.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic