HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Technical incompetence of governments
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:45:34 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

martinc@grover.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
>In article <C1B66E.30E@brunel.ac.uk> mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>
>   .... They threw what was, for the time, a 
>   scandalous amount of cash at the Ministry, while keeping the Vickers people
>   starved of resources.  We all know what happened to R101.  R100, which ran 
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   perfectly, was quietly disposed of.
>
>Actually, we don't -- my Dad has been after me to read Slide Rule for
>*years* -- so how about filling us in?

It's a long, sad tale, heartbreakingly similar to the Shuttle story,
leading up to the events of 28/1/86 (I don't need to go to any reference
for that date).  I will just give the final paragraphs of Shute's
account:

          "They told me that the new outer cover for R101 had
     been doped in place upon the ship.  When it was finished,
     it was considered that it ought to be strengthened in
     certain places by a system of tapes stuck on the inside,
     and for the adhesive they had used rubber solution.  The
     rubber solution had reacted chemically with the dope, and
     produced this terrible effect.
          There was nothing that he or I could do about it. 
     I said, 'I hope they've got all this stuff off the ship.
          He smiled cynically.  'They *say* they have.'
          Two points in this incident deserve some notice. 
     Firstly, Cardington was a department of the Air Ministry
     and had immediate access to the whole of government
     research organisation.  There was undoubtedly somebody at
     Farnborough who could have told them at once that rubber
     solution and dope do not agree; undoubtedly the dope
     manufacturers could have told them.  I think that at that
     stage, three weeks before the R101 disaster, they were
     floundering, making hurried and incompetent technical
     decisions, excluding people from their conferences who
     could have helped them.
          The second point is this.  R101 made one short test
     flight on October the 1st in very perfect weather; during
     this flight she made no full speed trials because the oil
     cooler of one engine failed.  She started for India on
     October the 4th, and met some very bad weather over
     France.  She crashed at Beauvais, and the initial cause
     of the disaster was almost certainly a large failure of
     the outer cover on top of the ship near the bow.  It
     seems to me very probable that some of this rotted fabric
     had been left in place, but nobody will ever know that
     for certain."
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','    
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: shihy@fraser.sfu.ca (Shih Yap)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Summary: Galactics Ethics
Keywords: hunter-killer robots
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:56:48 GMT
Expires: Sat, 13 Feb 1993 08:00:00 GMT

In article <1jt3pgINNj04@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bp652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gil W. Lau) writes:
>
>I guess another thing can happen now that you remind me.  The invading
>force can build Terminator-style hunter-killers programmed to destroy
>the defending inhabitants, kinda like how it was done in Brin's
>_Uplift War_.  What's this gun programmed to fire upon?  Hemoglobin.  Ah.
>
>  -- Gil
  The Gubru did not , as I remembered it, have hunter-killer robots out homing in on hemoglobin in the Terran defenders. True - the Gubru has a way to detect the hemoglobin in human and chimp blood but they use it to pinpoint the location of the defenders in the forests around the city. No robots was used to hunt
and kill anyone. They did use robots to sweep down and spray knockout gas so
that they can round up all the humans. (The chimps as a client race of humans 
aren't rated highly as a threat by the Gubru, what with them being a very youngrace and being uplifted by wolflings. Of course, Galactics almost always under-estimate Terran races).

Just a few words.

Steve
 


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: johns@ssd.comm.mot.com (Mike Johns)
Subject: Re: 2001/2010 Rocket Engines - What are They?
Organization: Motorola LMPS
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:05:07 GMT
Keywords: n

I thought that the book stated that discover was powered by a fission
reactor and could use any of a number of liquids propellant.  That
was at least supposedly the reason why the ship was so long, to keep
the crew as far from the engine as possible.  It has been a long time
though.

Mike J -- johns@ssd.comm.mot.com


-- 
Mike Johns test signature
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Industrial feudalism?
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:32:28 GMT

paul@econ.yale.edu (Paul McGuire) writes:

>I think authors use feudal societies either due to laziness or to a desire
>for simplicity.  It cuts down greatly on the number of important or powerful
>characters that need to be dealt with.  Want something?  Go talk to the king.
>That's much tidier than stageing a media blitz and lobbying congress and
>buying representatives and persuading power groups to support you....

	Er...most REALISTIC feudal societies don't have a strong
monarchy. In France, the power resided in the great magnates
(occasionally including the king of England)-the Duke of Burgundy, the
Count of Anjou, et cetera. In Germany and Italy, power was split up
between bishops, dukes and the Pope. Even in England, the Lords
Marcher of Wales and Scotland, the earls, and the Anglo-Irish lords
all had a great deal of autonomy at one time or another. The situation
in Portugal after 1400 is about the first place in Europe where the
king is the real as well as theoretical leader, and even he had to
contend with the nobles.

	If one wanted to get anything done in France, one would have
to see all of the magnates, and probably convince at least a majority
of the church leaders. Same goes for anyplace else. Getting the king's
say on it doesn't go far.
--
If mankind had been meant to run around nude, we would have been born naked! 
                                                   -Taras the Cossack 

Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Fusion Output
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:13:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com (David Wetzel):
>Would the "waste" products of Fusion be radioactive (theoretically)?

Some are and some aren't.  For example, our heavy elements are the
products (directly or via heavier radioactives) of fusion, and some
of those are radioactive.  Radioactive plutonium and non-radioactive
helium are both fusion products.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

"The death of God left the angels in a strange position."
	--Internal documentation, programmer unknown
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Re: Talking Apes
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:13:01 GMT

In article <1k3o79INN1de@feta.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, mapam@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr R A Khwaja) writes:
> 
> I have been reading David Brin's The Uplift War and it reminded me
> of a TV program I saw some years ago in which an orang-utan(?)
> had been taught sign language. It used to ask for food and say it was bored
> and stuff, I think. The program ended with the narrator
> wondering whether the ape(?) would teach the sign language to her
> children.
> Does anybody know what happened to this project and how successful
> it REALLY was?

I did some study on this in college, and have been trying to follow up in the
popular literature as the years have gone by.

The earliest attempts at talking apes tried to get them to use human speech. 
An early attempt with an orangutan yielded about 4-6 words.  They're just not
set up for as fine control of the vocal cords as humans.

The more recent work has focused either on sign language, such as ASL, or on
symbolic languages, usually via a computer.

[Warning: I am less skeptical than many on this subject, but I'm giving the
skeptics the benefit of the doubt in the next few paragraphs.]

The results of these studies are subject to much controversy, because they are
rather subjective, performed on a small group of subjects, etc.  However, it
appears *possible* that the apes that have been taught sign language are using
it for language, as opposed to a 'learned trick'.

The most notable case, a female gorilla named Koko (I think), had a pretty big
vocabulary, appeared to demonstrate the capability of forming new concepts
(such as compound words to represent new objects), and was observed signing to
a baby gorilla (I can't remember if it was her child).

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Date: 24 Jan 93 20:39:51 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:

> Does anyone know of any good invasion books other than _Lucifer's Hammer_? 
> This thread has piqued my interest.

There's _Footfall_ by Niven and Pournelle, which does specifically deal 
with ground offensives.  I personally found the book quite entertaining, 
though there are several people who didn't.

Interesting story:  Niven and Pournelle were invited to try to write an 
alien-invasion novel.  They did work on an asteroid or comet dropped on 
Earth to "soften us up," and did some notes on describing what that would 
be like.  After reading the notes they had compiled on the impact 
scenario, the inviter (was it Anderson?) said, "Wait a minute!  Forget 
the aliens!  Just do a story on an impact!"  Thus _Lucifer's Hammer_ was 
born.  Niven and Pournelle apparently still liked the idea, and so 
continued with _Footfall_.

If anyone's interested in a more concrete retelling of this story, I'll 
check through _N-Space_, which is where it is contained.


Erik Max Francis  -)(-  ..!apple!uuwest!max  -)(-  max@west.darkside.com   __
USMail: 1070 Oakmont Dr. #1; San Jose, CA  95117  ICBM: 37 20 N 121 53 W  /  \
Like strategic games of interstellar conquest? . . . Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
-)(- Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt; all things that are, are lights. -)(-
From: kkobayas@husc8.harvard.edu (Ken Kobayashi)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Interstellar War
Date: 27 Jan 93 06:31:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc.kkobayas.728116302

rwallace@unix1.tcd.ie (russell wallace) writes:

>Surely the most efficient way to wage interstellar war would be to send
>one von Neumann probe to a solar system near your target, have it make
>a quintillion more probes, and have the whole quintillion (heavily
>armed) probes attack your target.

   Sounds good, but after the war's over, or even before that, the probes
are going to mutate, keep reproducing, and spread out, invading other star
systems (the probes has to be capable of interstellar flight correct?). 
How do you prevent that?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: What would a Neutral Zone Look Like?
Keywords: Boundry,Four-Color Problem
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:29:28 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <C1F36K.KDM@world.std.com> rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) writes:
>While we are on the subject, what is the correspondent to the four color
>problem in a three dimensional space?  What is the minimal number of
>colors necessary and sufficient to uniquely mark three dimensional compact
>regions packed together in a 3-space.

This depends on your definition of compact.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: bk@analytikerna.se (Bengt KLEBERG)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Potential Launch Technologies (was Re:
Date: 21 Jan 93 09:58:54 GMT
Reply-To: bk@analytikerna.se
Organization: Analytikerna AB, Stockholm, Sweden

In 'Beyond the Fall of Night' (Gregory Benford?) they used a large
space creature looking like a tree that is travelling in Earth orbit.
Weird.

---

Bengt KLEBERG		bk@analytikerna.se
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Fusion Output
Organization: University of Rochester
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:12:45 GMT

In article <81965@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt1759c@prism.gatech.EDU (Don Morris) writes:
>In <1993Jan26.215619.22290@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> baylor@NEBULA.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:

>>Theoretically, couldn't you get as far as iron? I seem to remember
>>(I'm a chemist, be kind!) from some college class or another that
>>fusing smaller atoms into iron would produce more energy than

>Theoretically (as I remember it...) it takes more energy than is released
>for anything over oxygen. (The binding energy curve peaks about there, then
>slopes back downward. Energy released in a fusion reaction can be thought of
>as the difference between the two points on the curve, with energy produced
>in the positive y direction. Hydrogen is fairly low, helium much higher 
>(the slope in the beginning changes _very_ rapidly). )

The first poster is correct; the binding energy per nucleon peaks
around iron and nickel.  Massive stars do "fusion" up until silicon.
Beyond that point, the temperature needed to get two nuclei to merge
is so high that individual nucleons are instead evaporated off.  These
nucleons are quickly absorbed on other nuclei.  On average, the nuclei
get larger (and less numerous).  In the core of a supergiant star,
this process goes to completion in about 1 day, at which point the
core, mostly iron, collapses.

Type-I SN's also involve nuclear reactions ending at iron and nickel;
in their case, these reactions are thought to completely disrupt
a white dwarf star.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Range of Energy Weapons in space?
Date: 24 Jan 93 20:28:05 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Brian Lane) writes:

> The two limitations on your hitting the other target would be:
> 1) The range of the energy weapon. (let's assume its a 250MW Laser of some
> sort of destructive magnitude)
> How far could it fire and still do effective damage?
> 2) The range of your fire control.
> How far exactly could you pick up another ship through passive or active mean

Passive detection of drive flames, for instance, would allow you to 
pinpoint a ship anywhere in the solar system -- but that would only tell 
you where they _were_ when that light was emitted.  Lightspeed delay 
begins to become important.

The range of a laser beam would be essentially infinite.  A laser beam 
could still do damage (to a vulnerable target, naturally) across the 
solar system -- but the problem if you have to land a hit, which is 
nearly impossible when you've got huge lightspeed delays building up.


Erik Max Francis  -)(-  ..!apple!uuwest!max  -)(-  max@west.darkside.com   __
USMail: 1070 Oakmont Dr. #1; San Jose, CA  95117  ICBM: 37 20 N 121 53 W  /  \
Like strategic games of interstellar conquest? . . . Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
-)(- Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt; all things that are, are lights. -)(-
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:54:14 GMT

In article <C1HAq8.ICF@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk> py1djf@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk (D J Ford) writes:
}	Ah, but you don't necessarily have to take over a planet
}	to remove it or even, control it.

Or even with their knowledge.  Check foreign dependencies.  Are you SURE
of the origin?  Is it REALLY malasia/japan/germany/....  

Holy conspiracy, Batman!

Anyway, why fight 'em?  Just buy them, or get elected.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: mppc3@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Duncan White)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: University of Sussex
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:45:46 GMT

Tex Fish (tfish@world.std.com) wrote:
: 
: 	The reason I was talking about dropping rocks is that they
: eliminate the problem with nukes of "collateral radiation."  It would
: probably leave the agricultural lands bound to surround an urban center
: still usable.  In terms of how I meant, I was thinking in terms of, yes,
: diverting from the asteroid belt, and then accelerating with a megnetic
: linear accelerator.
: 

With only a few thrown rocks, the surrounding areas may be usable, you
were talking of hitting ALL the strategic targets on a planet. This is
going to cause an awful lot more disruption than you are assuming. For a
start there is going to be a LOT of dust and so on blasted into the
atmosphere (about 10^12 tons or so assuming the 1000*1km rocks somebody
mentioned) which is going to take months or years to fully settle out
and stop affecting weather patterns. You have heard the phrase 'nuclear
winter'? After affects of a serious rock slinging bombardment are going
to be much worse, though you'll only have fairly minor amounts of
radioactive fallout to worry about (from all those reactors that got
hit).

Cleanup is going to be one long and expensive process before the planet
reaches anything like the state that made you want to conquer it in the
first place. Maybe even expensive enough to make the whole 'soften up
with rocks before invading' idea worthless except for a very few vital
targets (and anybody planning for an orbital bombardent should
decentralise as much as possible). So it's back to many more troops and
lots of on planet fighting to conquer the planet. Assuming fairly equal
technologies, the on planet stuff will be fairly similar to modern
warfare, just with more flashing lights and silly noises so doesn't
really fall in the scope of this newsgroup.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:55:33 GMT

I'm assuming this is an intra-solar-system affair, and the invaders
have space superiority.  For example, a Solar System Alliance of 
Jupiter, the Belt, Mars, etc. invading Earth in 2150: Earth population
outnumbers the Alliance 15 billion to 1 billion, but the
Alliance utterly controls space.  For some reason, they feel the
need to control Earth politically.  How can the Alliance accomplish
this?

I'm not sure a "rain of terror" would do it.  That's worked in
some cases (eg Japan at the end of WWII) and not in others
(Germany and England in WWII).  Any spacers sent Earthside to
take command might be assasinated by victims of roid strikes
taking revenge, even in the face of further threatened strikes.

So, can these spacers land an invasion force larger enough, and with 
sufficiently superior tech, to pacify 15 billion groundhogs?  If the
difference in tech is as big as that between the U.S. and Somalia,
the spacers could invade with such little resistance that it could
be painted as altruistic.  :-)  One interesting aspect, though, is
that it's far easier to get down to the surface than to pull troops
out of the gravity well.  Planetary invasions look much like
paratrooping behind enemy lines.  No practical retreat; the invaders
must either win big, surrender, or be slaughtered by the natives.


-- 
Nick Szabo					 szabo@techboook.com
From: justinf@cco.caltech.edu (Justin Fang)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.science
Date: 23 Jan 1993 23:48:29 GMT
Organization: chaotic
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: macintosh50.cco.caltech.edu

In article <dpn2.227.727824956@po.CWRU.Edu>, dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P.
Neil) wrote:
> Does anyone know of any good invasion books other than _Lucifer's Hammer_? 
> This thread has piqued my interest.

_Lucifer's Hammer_ isn't an invasion book, it describes what happens when a
large comet hits the Earth. What you want is _Footfall_, by the same
authors (Niven and Pournelle).

> -----
> Damien Neil   dpn2@po.cwru.edu    "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
> Case Western Reserve University    I can do is a quick patch here and there."
> CMPS/EEAP double majoring masochist               - Erik Green

Justin Fang (justinf@cco.caltech.edu)
                               This space intentionally left blank.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: treitel@gracie.IntelliCorp.COM (Richard Treitel)
Subject: Re: Range of Energy Weapons in space?
Date: 26 Jan 93 02:14:57 GMT
Organization: preferably none

In article <iPewXB15w165w@west.darkside.com>, max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis) writes:
|> The range of a laser beam would be essentially infinite.

But not its effective range.  Diffraction, I think, causes it to spread.
Remember when Apollo left a reflector on the Moon for somebody to bounce
a laser beam off? (to measure Earth-Moon distance more accurately, or
something)  Word was that the beam had diverged to the size of a football
field by the time it reached the Moon.  See also "Rocheworld" by Forward,
and other good hard SF, on spreading of laser beams.

		- Richard
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Sailships
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:16:54 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

I would like to hear ideas on the acceleration that could be produced by
a solar sail, say 1km square.  If a solar sailship were build, to sail
out of the system, away from the sun, how large must the sail be?  How
much speed could be gained.

Now, there are many issues in this question.  For instance, the
acceleration will drop with distance from the sun (inverse square, I
believe.)  Also there is photon pressure as well as solar wind.  It is
my assumption that you could use the solar wind at the start of a
flight, then use photon pressure later on larger sails since the solar
wind speed is limited.  Also, if we accelerate to the speed of the
solar wind, will be get drag?

Any ideas?
-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |