HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin)
Subject: Re: Test that proves OBEs DONT occur
Keywords: n
Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 06:06:10 GMT

In article <BrptnH.52C@acsu.buffalo.edu>, ztsindi@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (The Independents - SUNY Buffalo) writes:

>	John Martin claims that the test I posted earilier in NO WAY
>proves that OBEs don't occur. The burden of proof, however, rests on
>those who claim they DO occur. The test is a controled situation that
>precludes any outside help to read the numbers on the card. If 
>successful it would PROVE that OBEs happen. But then thats the problem
>with scientists isn't it? They always want to set up experiments with



Woah, now wait a second.  I did say, and still maintain, that the test
in no way proves OBEs don't occur.  I did NOT say: therefore, it MUST
occur!  I was trying not to argue the existance of OBEs one way or the
other.

If the tests worked, it also would NOT prove that OBEs DO occur. This
is because of a myriad other explanations would still exists, both some
that require paranormal activity, and some that don't.

Now, as to that crack about scientists... watch it! I work in a
research lab, among scientists every day.  I believe that all of those
"pesky controls" are extremely important, regardless of the
insinuation in the tone of your posting.  I was merely pointing out that
you were wrong: the test proves (or disproves) nothing.  This does not
mean that OBEs exist, but only that you must view this, any most other
such inquiries (regardless of the field) with suspicion.  Let me see
reputable researchers do the test, have it replicated, then we'll
talk.


-- 
John Martin                                        johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu
Institute of Neuroscience,   University of Oregon,    Eugene, OR,    97402
From: Roy.Phillips@dustbin.omahug.org (Roy Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:30:00 CST
Reply-To: roy.phillips@dustbin.omahug.org
Organization: Atomic Dustbin, Bellevue, NE
Followup-To: alt.paranormal

GST->"... Tart (1968) conducted a series of experiments with a 'Miss Z'
who GST->claimed to have the ability to induce OBEs in herself during
sleep.  One GST->night, while her brain and other physiological measures
were being GST->recorded by polygraph, she was able during an OBE to
correctly identify GST->a five-digit number placed on a shelf above her
bed.  The possibility of GST->such a correct identification occuring by
chance is one in 100,000, and th GST->polygraph would have revealed it
had she gotten up during the night to GST->take a peek."

GST->        Now whether this proves if something leaves the body, or not, is
GST->questionable.  However, it does show that OBEs should not be lightly
GST->dismissed.

Other paranormal explanations could account for this as well...plain old
telepathy, either knowing what's on the paper, or finding the answer in
the person's mind who decided on the numbers.
 ~ OLX 2.1 TD ~ If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.


Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: tnishi@kansas.Berkeley.EDU (NISHIYAMA Tetsuto)
Subject: Re: how to have an OBE (was: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur)
Reply-To: tnishi@lsa.ncl.omron.co.jp
Organization: Omron Computer Systems R&D Labs 
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:04:32 GMT


In article <19470@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu
(Theron Friedman) writes:
|> 
|> 	After writing this book Monroe started playing around with pacing
|> brain activity using controlled sound frequencies, presenting different
|> frequencies to the right & left ears & thereby presumably inducing
|> different activities in the right & left hemispheres of the brain. He put

	Here in Japan, OOBEs and other related and non-related subjects
which belong in alt.paranormal seem to be quite popular subjects among
the young japanese...In a "NOVA"-type t.v. show, they took up the subject
of OOBEs and they mentioned the stuff about the different frequencies...
If I remember correctly, it had something to do with producing an "Alpha
Brain Wave" (?)...something like that...something like 100 hz in one ear
and 110 hz in the other.  

	teddy
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: close
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:43:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.205210.4372@verifone.com>, ron_s@verifone.com writes in 
part:
|> I am still waiting to see a color photo of an alien
|> and/or an alien spaceship.  
Don't worry, you'll be seeing plenty in the near future.

I'm afraid that it is too easy to doctor photographs now to
make a photo very interesting.  Computers can generate completely
undetectable fake photographs.  Undocumented photos are now just 
the same as unauthenticated documents--not worth the paper they 
are printed on.

I wouldn't accept a photograph as evidence of anything at all unless 
there was a very clear chain of evidence to show where it came from and
how it was handled.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: bbs.techie@tsoft.sf-bay.org (Robert Mc Daniel)
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Keywords: n
Organization: The TSoft BBS and Public Access Unix, +1 415 969 8238
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:46:14 GMT

> Ahem.  This does NOT prove that OBE's don't occur.  It DOES prove that
> the "Amazing Randi" has never been able to demonstrate one.  There is a
> huge difference!  If I have never seen something, this in NO WAY proves
> that the "something" doesn't exist!
 
What you're forgetting is that Randi doesn't claim to have OBEs. This is 
a test he gives to people who claim they have OBEs. So far NO ONE has 
passed his simple test. 
 
There is no way to prove that something doesn't exist, somewhere. What 
he's asking is for ANYONE to prove that they can have OBEs.


--
Robert Mc Daniel (bbs.techie@tsoft.sf-bay.org)
From: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu (Theron Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: out-of-body-experiences
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:16:55 GMT
Reply-To: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu
Organization: U of Arizona, CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Jul23.004202.6952@selway.umt.edu>, cs000rdw@selway.umt.edu (Richard D Warner) writes:

|> ......  Another story has been going around for years that a Faraday
|> cage can keep a person from leaving their body.  This is a simple experiment
|> really, and important because if true it would indirectly prove the 
|> existence of the second body.  (An Astral Body must be "real" if it can
|> be caged).  Does anyone know of documentation supporting this legend?
|> 
	.... sigh. If we can't get any substantial proof that an OBE
actually involves leaving the body in any real sense, how can we prove
that a Faraday Cage inhibits astral travel? A simple experiment, yes,
but based on a very dubious logic.

But this tickles the memory cells. Someone working on psi phenomena in
the '60's or '70's who published a couple of books, among the more
"sciency" in the area, who experimented with Faraday cages as *enhancers*
of psi ability. Sorry I can't remember his name any more. Maybe the
point is moot anyhow: if he'd come up with anything conclusive we'd
all know of it by now.

	terry friedman
Xref: sparky alt.paranormal:1900 sci.skeptic:12999
From: rogue@ccs.northeastern.edu (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Test that proves OBEs DONT occur
Keywords: n
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:23:26 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU

In article <1992Jul21.145521.526@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
>--How do we account for the normal "In the Body Experience"?  How
>is the OBE related to the IBE?  (This point is due to Susan Blackmore.)
>[I have no idea, but it's a really interesting question!]

	Richard Feynman, in his autobiography, 'Surely You're Joking, Mr.
Feynman!', describes some fascinating experiments on IBE/OBE.  Not very
controlled, but it was pretty cool to read about how he moved his 'sense of
self' to different parts of his body, and even outside his body.  This is a
man I'm very sorry I never got to meet.

	RA
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:55:29 GMT

In article <5491@umriscc.isc.umr.edu>, mchalmer@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Matthew Chalmers) writes in part:
|> I don't really
|> care at this point if OBEs are proven, fact, fiction, imagination, or
|> whatnot -- I just want to ask if anyone can post instructions on how to
|> induce one.

This doesn't really make complete sense.  Shall I tell you how to
have an imaginary one?  How about a fake one? :-)

Seriously, I have found no information about how to induce and OBE
on demand.  Since people can't even agree on what OBE's are, it is
pretty difficult to say for sure how to make one.  I was once told
"it is simple, you just have to keep trying."  This struck me as
pretty stupid at the time, but it might be perfectly correct--I don't
think anyone really knows how to do it.  Yet.

(Suppose you posted the request: please tell me how to have a dream.
How would anyone tell you how to have a dream if you couldn't do
so already?)

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu (Theron Friedman)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: how to have an OBE (was: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur)
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:55:49 GMT
Reply-To: tzf@csl.biosci.arizona.edu
Organization: U of Arizona, CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Jul23.171931.27562@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath) writes:

|> |> ......
|> |> |> Seriously, I have found no information about how to induce and OBE
|> |> |> on demand..........
|> |> 
............
|> 
|> The real reason I ignored Monroe and the numerous other people who
|> claim to tell how to have an OBE is because I don't think they know
|> what they are talking about.  Monroe proposes some pretty far-fetched
|> and bogus theories, such as the idea you mention:
|>  |> brain activity using controlled sound frequencies, presenting different
|>  |> frequencies to the right & left ears & thereby presumably inducing
|>  |> different activities in the right & left hemispheres of the brain.
|> which is pretty much total nonsense.
|> 
|> If someone wants to point me to some method that can be shown to
|> induce OBE's on demand (or even increase their frequency) please do.


I suppose it's an issue of temprament here in making the evaluation. Seems to
me the expectation that an having an OBE will necessarily be any easier than,
say, learning to ride a bicycle is a bit unreasonable. Yes,
some people claim to have them spontaneously, but the rest of us may have
to acquire the skill by practice, trial & error.

Also seems to me you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater in your
rejection of the qualifications of Monroe and (apparently) everyone else who
claims to have a method for inducing an OBE. Agreed, their outlooks and statements
may be a bit, um, extraordinary, but do give the techniques a try before
rejecting them out of hand. Or at least share with others who want the
information that the (purported) techniques exist, even though you have
your doubts about the sanity :-) of the people offering them.

Final point: you hold the view that OBE's are interesting subjective
phenomena, though there may not be any objective out of body travel.
Given that interpretation I think that one could say that Monroe's
techniques do in fact increase the frequency of OBE's -- I took one of
the Gateway workshops and while I didn't have an OBE some of the other
participants did. His "hemisync" (couldn't remember that term on the last
posting) may not have any solid basis in current theory, but it did have
some interesting subjective effects. Sometimes method comes first & theory
follows a little later.

	terry friedman
From: cs000rdw@selway.umt.edu (Richard D Warner)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: out-of-body-experiences
Summary: Can you cite references?
Date: 23 Jul 92 00:42:02 GMT
Organization: University of Montana

In article <jarkell.05gw@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca>, jarkell@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca (Jonathan Arkell) writes:
> Actually there is something that does provide evidence about something leaving
> the body during an OBE, some scients put someone on a super hyper precise scale
> bed, that way they could weigh him during the obe, well it turns out that the
> time the obe started, a few grams were taken off the weight of the bed and
> person.  A similar experiment happened with people who were dying, when they
> eventually died, the same results, 3 grams off the weight.

	I'd be interested in seeing the research for this.  Personally, I'm
skeptical that this is more than urban legend because if true it would have
made big news.  Also, a second body seems to better fit an "energy" model,
and even if one does actually leave the body, I wouldn't expect a 3 gram 
weight loss.  Another story has been going around for years that a Faraday
cage can keep a person from leaving their body.  This is a simple experiment
really, and important because if true it would indirectly prove the 
existence of the second body.  (An Astral Body must be "real" if it can
be caged).  Does anyone know of documentation supporting this legend?

Rich
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Magickal arts
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:54:19 GMT

In article <jarkell.05gy@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca>, jarkell@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca (Jonathan Arkell) writes in part:
|> now, how do you KNOW that reading, writing, and playing a musical instrument
|> are mental skills vastly more difficult to learn, and more powerful then a
|> spell? 
Exactly the same way as folks know magick works--I've observed it.  Reading, 
writing, and musical performance have obvious worldly existence and power, 
which magick doesn't for non-believers.

|> to me it seems that you are just trashing thoes who do believe in this,
|> personally, 
Sorry if you take it that way.  I was simply trying to make the point
that there are so many amazing and wonderful NON-magickal things to
study.  Is is a put down to say that I find other things about people
more interesting than magick?

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: urbina@novax.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: UP
Date: 31 Jul 92 03:27:02 GMT

AREA 51




 What is the latest info out of Area 51?  I remember hearing about it last year
 about an electrophysicist who used to work at LANL  then later employed by the 
department of the Navy who said he studied or working on reverse engineering a
supposed ufo.   The saucer rags hype it up and over exaggerate it.  I forget
the persons name.  I also remember NBC news showing infrared video of shining
lights moving in unorthodox patterns over groom lake in Area 51. I also heard
through the grape vine that this place is an extremely high security exclusion
area and also something about an "AURORA" project.  Anybody hear anything about
this or is this old news?





note: these opinions are mine and not those of BFEC, LLNL or U.S.DOE
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE (?)
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:19:21 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Originator: netnews@uts.mcc.ac.uk

In article <1992Jul29.121913.16868@kth.se> tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren) writes:


> last weekend I got a bit much to drink, and when I went to bed it was
>alright, but when I closed my eyes I felt like I was tilting, like I
>was on a ship on the ocean, but when I open my eyes I'm all still.. is
>this an OBE or not??

It's an Out of the Brain Experience

or as we old fashioned Brits like to put it:
an Out of your Bonce Experience

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  I don't take part in any sport that requires me to change clothes  |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: Magickal arts
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 05:10:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul19.193917.26341@rhrk.uni-kl.de> kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>In article <1992Jul18.225632.17060@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:
>>In article <jarkell.04xa@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca>jarkell@nucleus.cuc.ab.ca (Jonathan Arkell) writes:
>>>               Do you think magickal spells work?
>>my quick and dirty answer to that, is that if you believe that they
>>will work, then they will work. [..]
>
>Or rather: If you believe that they will work, then it will look to you
>as if they work.

agreed! :-)
sally

>-- 
>--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
>Do you ask a Napoleon why it has to be Moscow, of all places?  Do you ask a
>Mondrian why one has to paint only in the rectangularly framed primary colours
>Red, Blue, and Yellow?  Ah, how all questions are ruined in view of a persuas-
>ively recited system of madness! And is there a mortar keeping those systems
>together firmer than real or supposed enemies?  -  Robert Gernhardt
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE (number test)
Date: 23 Jul 92 09:52:44 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In article <1992Jul21.163934.1@husky1.stmarys.ca> gen5006@husky1.stmarys.ca writes:


>Taken from "Mind Beyond the Body" (c) 1978:

>"... Tart (1968) conducted a series of experiments with a 'Miss Z' who
>claimed to have the ability to induce OBEs in herself during sleep.  One
>night, while her brain and other physiological measures were being
>recorded by polygraph, she was able during an OBE to correctly identify
>a five-digit number placed on a shelf above her bed.  The possibility of
>such a correct identification occuring by chance is one in 100,000, and the
>polygraph would have revealed it had she gotten up during the night to 
>take a peek."

>       Now whether this proves if something leaves the body, or not, is
>questionable.  However, it does show that OBEs should not be lightly 
>dismissed.

>Bill.
Polygraphs aren't so hard to fool, even the correctly adjusted and reliable 
ones.  Now if that number had been in a different room, or preferably a 
different building, or city.....
And of course the telepathy people could reasonably claim that if anybody 
had ever seen that number, they could transmit it to the purported OBEer...


+--Great Quotes of our Time-------------------------------------------+
|        You should never have a hobby that eats                      |
+--------------------------------------Amarillo Slim Preston----------+          
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England  (44)061-275-6033   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: mchalmer@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Matthew Chalmers)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: how to have an OBE (was: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur)
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:31:03 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

>Matthew: if the purpose of your post was to
>learn the techniques & try to have an OBE for yourself, go find a "new
>age" or "aquarian" bookstore & see if they have anything on the subject. Or
>get a copy of the abovementioned New Age (Journal) & scan the ads.

Thanks for the info. I live in a VERY small town, and have no immediate
means of motor locomotion, (and the nearest "city" is about 100 miles 
away) so I won't be able to just trot on over to the local new age
book store. However, I will use the Internet Library facility to try
to find the books/journals you mentioned. If you could reply again with
more exact titles and authors, I would appreciate it.

Thanks again for the info!
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:44:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



>>Seriously, I have found no information about how to induce and OBE
>>on demand.  

Bob Monroe at the Monroe Institute can teach you how.  He uses tapes
that induce self-hypnosis.

>Darn. I kinda figured that somebody out there in alt.paranormal land
>would either have had experienced an OBE or know someone who has or
>had heard of someone who has, etc., and could tell me either how he/she
>did it or how he/she heard it was done. It would seem pointless for all
>the readers of this group to discuss OBEs in so much detail if NOBODY
>reading/posting believes that they can occur. 

A friend of mine had a spontaneous one during childbirth.  She floated 
above her body and 'saw' her body being wheeled into the delivery room.
She watched it all from the ceiling.

---
Mary Stanley		
		(INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
		(UUCP)		...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
		(INTERNET)	stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com
---
From: mchalmer@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Matthew Chalmers)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:19:36 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

>|> I don't really
>|> care at this point if OBEs are proven, fact, fiction, imagination, or
>|> whatnot -- I just want to ask if anyone can post instructions on how to
>|> induce one.
>
>This doesn't really make complete sense.  Shall I tell you how to
>have an imaginary one?  How about a fake one? :-)

It makes perfect sense. My point is, I have a completely open mind about
the subject, and would very much like to experience one myself. But I
have absolutely no idea of how to start.

>Seriously, I have found no information about how to induce and OBE
>on demand.  Since people can't even agree on what OBE's are, it is
>pretty difficult to say for sure how to make one.  I was once told
>"it is simple, you just have to keep trying."  This struck me as
>pretty stupid at the time, but it might be perfectly correct--I don't
>think anyone really knows how to do it.  Yet.

Darn. I kinda figured that somebody out there in alt.paranormal land
would either have had experienced an OBE or know someone who has or
had heard of someone who has, etc., and could tell me either how he/she
did it or how he/she heard it was done. It would seem pointless for all
the readers of this group to discuss OBEs in so much detail if NOBODY
reading/posting believes that they can occur. 

>(Suppose you posted the request: please tell me how to have a dream.
>How would anyone tell you how to have a dream if you couldn't do
>so already?)

And suppose I posted: How does one eat a bowl of cereal? If I have never
done it before, I'm QUITE SURE that I could follow one's instructions
on how to do it. *smirk*
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren)
Subject: OBE (?)
Reply-To: TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 12:19:13 GMT


 last weekend I got a bit much to drink, and when I went to bed it was
alright, but when I closed my eyes I felt like I was tilting, like I
was on a ship on the ocean, but when I open my eyes I'm all still.. is
this an OBE or not??




---------------+--------------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: TordM@VanD.PhySto.SE | These opinions are my own,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm