From: blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Immigration procedures
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:40:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: bigbird.6238
Reply-To: blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Organization: Horizon Research

In article <1992Apr6.190517.4448@island.COM>, fester@island.COM (Mike
Fester) writes:
> In article <6182@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@sparc1.hri.com (Bill
Lambert) writes:
> >
> >I have to admit that I probably didn't have much of an opinion
> >about this subject until I witnessed my True Love crying while
> >being fingerprinted by the Boston version of the INS. We
> >were treated rudely, as idoits, who were somehow inconveniencing
> 
> I don't believe INS has a monopoly on bureaucratic morons, as a visit to
> most DMVs will show.

Sorry, but it's really neither here nor here. I wasn't talking about
getting a driver's license. I was talking about the much larger issue
of whether I was allowed to live with my wife. And anyway, after many
years of dealing with the Mass Registry of MV (the bureaucracy from
limbo), even I was appalled at the levels of rudeness and unprofession-
alism at the Boston INS. Shame shame shame and more shame.

> >(At our final interview before being 'granted' permanent residency
> >status, the agent made a thinly veiled threat not to 'allow' my
> >Love PR status because she entered the U.S. on a tourist visa before
> >we were officially married in the U.S. He claimed she should have
> >stated her intentions to be married to the immigration agent at
> >O'Hare airport and "He would decide whether to allow her to enter
> >or not." He asked my Love, "What did you tell the agent?" She said,
> >"I didn't tell him anything. I didn't know I had too." He asked me,
> >"What did you say?" I replied, "Nothing. I had to go through a
> >different line, and anyway, please show me on the I-94 the 'Intending
> >to marry a US citizen' check box." This, to me, was just terrorism
> >on his part, or at best, a gratuitous display of bureaucratic pee-pee
> >pulling.)

> Not quite.....

Huh?.... beg your pardon? Listen sport, I was there, not you. I've seen
enough gratuitous pee-pee pulling and bureaucratic terrorism in my
lifetime to last me a lifetime. I can see it when I know it.

Please recognize the situation. You are Joe B. Crat, and there are two
people sitting in front of you who are legally married,
have all the documentation to support it, are trying to be helpful and
polite, are obviously well-off professionals, have committed no crimes,
and, "Well, well... let me show 'em whose in charge here...." And so it
goes, Michael. Some people may be more sensitive to this kind of horse
poop than you are. I think we need those people watching the back ends
of those pooping horses at all times and at all places.

> ...... When we got married in Japan, we went to the emabassy (American)
> to ask what we needed to do to make everything legal. We were asked where
> we intended to get married, etc. We answered all questions and at the end of
> the interview, I had a couple of general questions myself. It turns out that
> there is a special visa for fiances of US citizens who wish to marry their
> intended in the US.....

All this is true.... but....

Well, I didn't get into all the gory details, but since you wish to be
reknowned as an expert on the subject, I'll tell my story. Perhaps this
information might be useful for those who are contemplating the joys of
international marriage.

My wife and I didn't plan to be married in the U.S. We had a church ceremony
at a Catholic Church in Fujisawa City. Now.... a ceremony is not an official
marriage in Japan. Unlike in the US, where the person officiating at the
ceremony makes out some form that is a legal document, a Japanese marriage
is officially made by the couple making a new "Family Register". This can
be done anytime before or after the ceremony by a Japanese couple, but 
there's a catch. For foreigners, the registration must be done AFTER
the ceremony, and the registration of a marriage with a foreigner can only
be made at one place: Minato-Ku City Hall near Shinjuku. As we planned to
leave Japan on the day after our ceremony (which, while maybe not
official to any government, was official enough for us), it was incon-
venient for us to go to Minato-ku and so forth. BUT.... my wife went there
beforehand to check on how we could do the Japanese registration. They told
her that she could register at the Japanese Consulate in Boston. Mondainai.
In addition, I called the US Embassy in Tokyo. The person I got was Nihon-
jin and spoke little english. I asked what I had to consider in the US
about a Japanese marriage. This person - perhaps reading from a card -
said, "The United States of America recognizes marriages in Japan." My
wife tried also, only to get essentially the same results in Nihon-go.
When I asked if I could speak with and english speaking official, I was
told that none was available.... 3 times in 3 tries.

So.... (sorry this is so long, but I hope it might be useful for someone,
if no longer Mike), we were happily married by an Irish Priest whose
brogueish Japanese sounded somewhat comical, and trucked off to Boston
the next day (by way of Chicago). My wife had been to the U.S. before
and ALREADY HAD A VISA, Michael.In the throes of early marital bliss,
we had no idea that we had to announce that we were intending to be
married, because we thought we already were, having completed the first
step of two required by the Japan procedure. The very next day we
illegally parked near South Station and trotted up to the Japanese
consulate only to find out that they only recognize official marriages
IN THE US as registerable by them. Oh oh. Big trouble in Little Japan.
We realized we weren't actually married.... even partially unless we
returned to Japan (no one wants us married.... boo hoo), and I got
another of the millions of parking tickets I recieve annually.

My Love says, "What shall we do?" I said, "No problem. We'll go get a
blood test, and apply for a marriage license. Then we'll get married by
a Justice of the Peace and pay the parking ticket when we come back from
Paris." And so we did, about 10 days later. (actually, I didn't pay the
ticket) After that we could register our marriage at the Japanese
Consulate.

"Mondainai", as they say at Minato-Ku City Hall. So where were we married?

> ......This is quite separate from a tourist visa. Also, in the
> standard tourist visa application, there is a space that reads roughly "Why
> are you going to the US?" Had she answered "To get married" chances are she
> would have been directed to the proper visa department, saving her, and
> yourself, considerable discomfort. She would have been required to
present those
> same documents to the embassy staff that she most likely was eventually 
> required to submit to immigration (birth certificate, police record, etc). As
> it has become a problem in the US (and recently Japan), quite a few
foreigners
> will marry US citizens to gain permanent resident status. While this
obviously
> does NOT apply in your situation, it is a situation the INS deals with on a 
> daily basis. So, to those of you with fiances overseas, my advice is to jump
> through the required hoops over there, as it will make your transition a bit
> smoother.

Did it ever.... in your wildest dreams.... ever occur to you that some
body else's case, or somebody else's circumstances, might be different
than yours? Can't happen, huh?. You just assumed that we didn't  check
something, or that we tried to pull something over on the
INS, but never did you assume that our case might have different
circumstances. We did check, not realizing that our case was so different
because we wanted to be married in Japan and move immediately to the US.

We'll.... now we're married in both, and twice in some places. Now we
know, but we didn't then, and didn't have a snowball's chance in San
Juan of finding out from the people to whom we inquired.

> Now, if you want to say that many of these INS agents attend a special school
> to get their humanity beaten out of them, I won't argue. I have not 
> seen my wife mistreated, but I have witnessed some of them ridicule, bully,
> embarass, etc, other immigrants.

Having had those experiences, there are those that might think that you
might be a little more understanding toward those who might be rightously 
indignant when faced with those who might be rude bullying embarrassments.

{I apologize in advance for the sarcasm, but I'm gonna say it anyway :-)
I've been watching the napalm passing between you and my brother, Al.
You see, we were siamese twins separated at birth, and raised by 
different sets of Post Office employees. Isn't life strange?}

The problem is not that the INS attend a special school, but just the
opposite. I have to think they have no training at all about human
relations, and their management does little or nil to improve the
situation, and probably are too stupid to recognize or care about
their department's insensitivity.

Shame shame shame and more shame. Watch out!

> Mike

Bill
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan