HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: evansg@uproar.enet.dec.com (Gwyn Evans @ IME)
Subject: VNS: Thu  5-Nov-1992
Keywords: VNS,news
Organization: Digital Equipment Service Industries Solutions Company Ltd
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:43:32 GMT


<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2699             Thursday  5-Nov-1992            Circulation :  7671

        VNS MAIN NEWS .....................................   52 Lines

VNS MAIN NEWS:                                    [Tom Povey, VNS UK News Desk]
==============                                    [Reading, England           ]

    Here is the News at 07:00 GMT on Thursday 5-November-1992
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        
	"Remember, remember the 5th of November,
	 Gunpowder, treason and plot.
	 I see no reason, why gunpowder treason,
	 should ever be forgot."  Anon.


    UK News
    -------
    FT-SE = 2691.7
    Exchange Rate for UK pound = $ 1.5505  = Dm 2.4385

    The Government had a majority of just 3 last night in the vote on the
    Maastricht treaty. The voting was 319-316. An earlier Labour motion to
    delay the bill until after the Edinburgh summit in December was defeated
    by 6 votes. The Lib Dems voted for the government. Some 10 Tories
    abstained and a number (6 I think) voted against. 
                            ^--- {26, actually.  Gwyn}

    The Government is expected to publish its Employment Bill today. It is
    expected to recommend that the Wages Councils be abolished. These set
    the wages for some 2.5M low-paid workers such as those in the textile
    and catering industries.

    The Consumers Association says that 1 in 10 customers are not satisfied
    with the service from Banks and Building Societies. The Banks and
    Building Societies say that satisfying 9 out of 10 customers is not that
    bad.

    World News
    ----------

    Following the collapse of the world trade talks over limits on the
    production of oil seed, the US are expected today to announce details of
    trade sanctions against the EC. These sanctions are expected to double
    the price of certain goods such as French wine. The EC have said they
    will match any punitative sanctions.  The sanctions cannot be applied for
    30 days and actions are expected to try and avert a trade war. 

    The US president-elect has said that he will support continuity in US
    foreign policy during the transition between US Presidents.


    {News courtesy of the BBC}


    Local Weather
    -------------

    A mild night and a clear start to the day. Staying dry with highs of up
    to 16C/61F.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2699    Thursday  5-Nov-1992   <><><><><><><><>
--
+======================================================================+
| Gwyn Evans  | evansg@uproar.enet.dec.com |  Uxbridge, Middlesex, UK  |
| DESISCo - Digital Equipment Service Industries Solutions Company Ltd |
|  Views expressed and statements made are mine and not those of DEC   |
+======================================================================+
From: eddie@cstr.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Rooney)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Berwickshire (Was Re: Why Berwick-upon-Tweed?)
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:26:27 GMT
Organization: Centre for Speech Technology Research, Edinburgh University

In article <CC.92Nov11125345@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:

|> Berwick-upon-Tweed is in England (and 4/5ths of its people are happy for it
|> to stay there, according to an opinion poll a year or so ago).  Berwickshire
|> used to be in Scotland, just over the border, until they destroyed all the
|> counties in 1974 (boo!).

Berwickshire still is in Scotland - it's now a district belonging to Borders
Region, rather than a county, with rather different boundaries.

However, many postal addresses, including my own, still include Berwickshire,
even though the places they refer to haven't been in Berwickshire administratively
for 18 years!  This seems to happen in other places - e.g. the postal address
of East Lothian's council offices is "Musselburgh, Midlothian".
=========================================================================

Edmund Rooney					email:eddie@cstr.ed.ac.uk

Centre for Speech Technology Research
University of Edinburgh
80, South Bridge,
Edinburgh EH1 1HN
Scotland

=========================================================================
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15388 alt.folklore.urban:27729
From: riaedwards@halls1.cc.monash.edu.au (AUDREY EDWARDS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Britain doesn't have a Constitution (Re: An astonishing Guy)
Date: 8 Nov 92 09:44:19 GMT
Organization: Halls of Residence, Monash University

In article <lfjeeeINN91q@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Trelford Pinkerton) writes:
>From: linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Trelford Pinkerton)
>Subject: Britain doesn't have a Constitution (Re: An astonishing Guy)
>Date: 6 Nov 1992 00:18:22 GMT

>From: streater@unixjr.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
>> There *is* an English Bill of Rights ...
>> It forms part of the written part of the Constitution.

>A Constitution and a Bill of Rights by definition cannot be 
>mere laws passed by the standard legislative process.

>As has been pointed out at greater length, a Constitution is
>an extraordinary code that sets the framework within which 
>all laws apply.

>Britain therefore does not have a Bill of Rights or a Constitution.
>Of course, it's another question entirely, how effectively the
>US Constitution is applied and enforced in practice.

Then, how come I spent a *whole* year studying English Constitutional Law? 
 
Just because the Americans have one method of creating a constitutional 
framework, does not mean that any other method (by definition) is not 
capable of achieving the same results. We do have a constitution, it's just 
in a different form. 

Audrey.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:38:27 GMT


In article <27421@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, mike@frey.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes...
>No, I don't think this is rite, Scots English or whatever is
>as far away from Anglo-Saxon grammar as standard English(es).
>It too lacks all the complicated inflections & has different
>3rd person pronouns (I think) than Anglo-Saxon dialects had.

Some examples of Scots grammar:
and for all you people living in England, the US, Canada etc who say 
"I've heard that here". Well, Scots have emigrated/been transported all
over the world and many took their language with them.

1) Scots: "The car needs washed"
   English: "The car needs a wash" / "The car needs washing"

2) Scots has different 2nd person pronouns. English just has "you",
   Scots has "you" and "yous"

3) Scots, like Gaelic, has a triple comparative "that, that, yon"
   English doesn't have this

4) There is a loss of distinction between the past tense and the past
   participle: "I done it" , "we havnae went"

5) There is more use of double negatives
   "You never telt me naethin about it"

6) Different use of the definite article to English:
   "the day" (=today), "He's got the cold", "the flu", "he's at the scuil",
   "in the hospital" , "awa tae the kirk"

7) Use of prepositions is different to English
   "get chased fae the polis", "feart for the dog", "waitin on his frein"

8) In verbs, a -s ending is regularly used for forms other then the third
   person singular ie. "when the kye comes hame", "...an she says....an I says"

9) There is a distinction made for habitual verbs
   e.g.  "when I gae hame I'll tell him" against
         "When I gaes hame I aye maks mysell a cup o tea"

10) Auxilliary verb constructions are different:
    "He'll no can manage", "they used tae could dae it","the micht no would
     like tae come wi us"

11) The verb "be" is often omitted after a demonstrative
    "here a sweetie tae ye", "there the bus ower thonder"

- Most examples above from "Why Scots Matters" by J.Derick McClure, 
  lecturer in the Dept of English at Aberdeen University. Published 1988
  by the Saltire society, 9 Fountain Close, High Street, Edinburgh, EH2 1TF

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
From: wisp@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Wisp)
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:10:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.170316.17201@ulysses.att.com> smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) writes:
>In article <8200.9211060924@thor.cf.ac.uk>, spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr S J Morris 92) writes:
>> As for non-Catholics, there was virtually unlimited religious freedom.
>> The period saw an enormous proliferation of religious groups -
>> Presbyterians, Independents, Baptists, Quakers, Levellers, True
>> Levellers, Diggers, Fifth Monarchists... - who so long as they toed the
>> line and didn't start using violence against those who disagreed with
>> them (the Fifth Monarchists fell down here) could say and do what they
>> liked.
>
>Sure -- since as I recall the Jews had been expelled from the country
>some years earlier, even they didn't have to worry...

Some hundreds of years earlier, and by then they were all back anyway: how
else was the crown supposed to raise money for all the wars, royal banquets
etc...

The Wisp. [should have been rewarded for snuffing Jesus, if you ask me...]
From: colin@cs.uq.oz.au (Colin Millerchip)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Dum dee dum (was Re: The Archers: a beginner's guide)
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:24:30 GMT
Reply-To: colin@cs.uq.oz.au

In <BxGBFz.15E@dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:

>In article <1992Nov6.090722.626@aber.ac.uk> dpl@aber.ac.uk (David Philip Langstaff) writes:
>>Since then, Robin has been doing his best to avoid Caroline.

>Yaaay!

>Not any more! :-) :-)

Ooh, you little tease... tell all. I've not had an update in weeks, and
the sedatives are starting to lose their effect.  

C.

--
|Colin Millerchip           | "And all this science I don't understand,|
|University of Queensland,  |  It's just my job five days a week"      |
|Brisbane, Australia.       |   - "Rocketman", Elton John              |
|colin@cs.uq.oz.au          |                                          |
From: nikolay@scws7.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Sado-Methodists
Date: 8 Nov 92 01:48:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: scws7.NIKOLAY.92Nov7174809
Organization: The Kremlin Wall of Harvard

E. P. Thompson cites, in _The Making of the English 
Working Class_, some fine specimens of early Methodist
hymnody. I hope their graphic vividness will please
the readers of this learned newsgroup.

Here, for example, is a little ditty which visualises 
the wound in Christ's side as a desired refuge from sin.

	O precious Side-hole's cavity
	I want to spend my life in thee....
	There in one side-hole's joy divine,
	I'll spend all future Days of mine.
	Yes, yes, I will forever sit
	There, where thy Side is split.

The same 'hole' is also described as the 'dearest little
opening of the sacred, precious and thousand times beautiful
little side', in which the 'worm' (i.e. sinful man) finds
'Lodging, Bed and Board'.

More on the same subject, by John or Charles Wesley:

	Come, O my guilty brethren, come,
	    Groaning beneath your load of sin!
	His bleeding heart shall make you room,
	    His open side shall take you in.

More of the same:

	Still the fountain of Thy blood
	    Stands for sinners open'd wide;
	Now, even now, my Lord and God,
	    I wash me in Thy side.

And more:

	We thirst to drink Thy precious blood,
	    We languish in Thy wounds to rest,
	And hunger for immortal food,
	    And long on all Thy love to feast.

More by Charles Wesley, in a somewhat different vein:

	Ah, lovely Appearance of Death,
	    No Sight upon Earth is so fair.
	Not all the gay Pageants that _breathe_
	    Can with a dead Body compare.

And here's one from Isaac Watts' 'Divine Songs for Children':

	When children in their wanton play,
	    Serv'd old Elisha so;
	And bid the prophet go his way,
	    "Go up, thou bold-head, go:"
	GOD quickly stopt their wicked breath,
	    And sent two raging bears,
	That tore them limb from limb to death,
	    With blood, and groans, and tears.

Well, pretty fab, or what?

Philip Nikolayev
nikolay@husc.harvard.edu
From: anw@maths.nott.ac.uk (Dr A. N. Walker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Energy Policy (or lack of it.)
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:36:13 GMT
Reply-To: anw@maths.nott.ac.uk (Dr A. N. Walker)
Organization: Maths Dept., Nott'm Univ., UK.

In article <27549@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk
(Jeremy Henderson) writes:

[Jeremy's original long, involved, explanation of why subsidising nuclear
makes everyone buy gas instead of coal, my paraphrase of his explanation,
and his re-statement of my paraphrase in CAPITAL LETTERS deleted.]

>Maybe you deleted my explanation before you read it?

	No, I was just trying to make sense of it, and still failing.
That is to say, I can parse your explanations, and can believe their
factual content, but they don't seem to me to imply (a) that subsidising
nuclear tilts the playing field towards gas;  (b) that coal is not
being over-produced in this country [and elsewhere around the world].

>Of course the situation is more complicated than that, [...]

	Of course.  Perhaps we had better leave it there, since
you are no doubt over-occupied at present with your over-production
[on which, my felicitations].

-- 
Andy Walker, Maths Dept., Nott'm Univ., UK.
anw@maths.nott.ac.uk
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15420 alt.folklore.urban:27785
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Anglican vs C of E
Date: 9 Nov 92 10:46:02 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Trelford Pinkerton)
>I would like to hear what the difference is between
>the Anglican church, and the Church of England.  This is in
>the context of the Monarch being the Supreme Head of Britain's
>official state religion.

The Church of England is a subset of the Anglican Church. THe
"Anglican Church" includes all those churches in other
countries which were founded on the lines and beliefs of the
Church of England.

The Church of England being the "state religion" means (i) they
get to keep (and have to maintain) all the really old churches,
(ii) their beliefs are subject to approval by Parliament (not
that anyone much bothers anyway, but Parliament did actually
turn down a motion passed by the C of E synod a while back)
(iii) they get to run the occasional ceremony, though in the
interests of ecumenism the RC Cardinal, Free Church moderator,
and Chief Rabbi are usually invited for a guest spot as well
these days.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: In your school?
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:35:57 GMT

In <4NOV199217135875@sscvx1.ssc.gov> godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes:

>In article <1992Nov4.095754.24511@walter.cray.com>, u8971@cray.com (Ronald Maier)             writes...
>>In article <1992Nov4.142058.25471@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross) writes:
>>>godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes:
>>>: > 
>>>: >In article <3NOV199218244873@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov writes:
>>>: >> 
>>>: >> [of Canada]
>>>: >>
>>>: 
>>>: It's true, I dislike Canada a great deal.
>>>: 
>>>: Laurence
>>>
>>>You cannot find a good psychotherapist in Britain, Laurence?
>>I don't think he can as this is not the only newsgroup he is posting
>>to and putting down the people. I have seen his postings in at least
>>the following newsgroups; soc.culture.canada, soc.culture.thai,
>>soc.culture.pilippines, and the usa groups. I don't know what this
>> guy has a phd in but it sure isn't intelligence. All he does is stir things
>>up and moan and complain about things. I use the kill file and delete all
>>his posting so I don't know how this one got through. If you don't know how to
>>do it and would like to e-mail me. 
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>Brian Ross                         "How do we arrange lures in our tackle box?
>> 
>>Ron Maier

>My OPhD is in High En Physics, Univ College Lodon, 1982.  I have a first class
>hon degree in physics, Univ of London, 1975.  Yeah you're right, I certainly
>don't have a PhD in intelligence.

Well, there's the old chestnut about;
	BS = Bulls**t
	MS = Mores**t
	Phd = Piled higher and deeper

In Laurence's case I could believe it. :-)



>Laurence


Bob.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
From: smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:41:52 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <5829@balrog.ctron.com>, smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith) writes:
> An important semantic difference to point out here: The American Bill of Rights
> is passed by _the_people_ of the United States, as an alteration to the
> document created _by_them_ which empowers the gov't _they_created_.  The
> English Bill, on the other hand, was passed by the gov't, which rules because
> no one has successfully overthrown it, and which graciously _grants_ certain
> rights to its citizens.

No.  The theoretical difference is simpler (and less jingoistic) than
that.  An act of Parliament or a law enacted by Congress can be changed
by a simple procedure -- a new law is passed to repeal it.  Changing a
consitutional provision requires a much more complex procedure -- a
supermajority in Congress, followed by ratification by 3/4 of the
states.  But it could be changed -- Prohibition was repealed, after
all.  But it has nothing to do with ``the people'' creating the
government.

Of course, whether or not either Congress or Parliament could get away
with making a change that fundamental is another matter.  On the other
hand, in the U.S. all that seems to be need to ignore the Bill of
Rights to to declare a holy war on drugs, or ``pornography'', or some
other such cause.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 16:07:19 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Can the Prime Minster be Catholic?

In article <lfqsm6INNa86@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM
(Trelford Pinkerton) says:
>
>Some gentleman posting from Cambridge makes a somewhat petulant snappish
>demand to either dummy up the proof that the Prime Minister of Britain
>can't be Catholic, or withdraw the posting.
>
>I withdraw it -- I guess I was thinking of the law that says the heir
>to the throne may not marry a Catholic.   This has been tested in recent
>times with Princess Michael of Kent.  She wanted to remain a Catholic
>and bring her kids up Catholic, but not so Catholic that they would be
>excluded from the line of succession.  She seems to have pulled it off, too.
>
>A Catholic prime minister would certainly raise major questions of
>protocol however: for example, certain appointments within Britian's
>State Church (Bishoprics, etc) are made on the prime minister's
>recommendation.    A Catholic prime minister would therefore be selecting
>the leaders of a competing franchise.

So would any PM not an adherent to the Church of England and I believe there
have been a few of those.



>
>So has there ever been a Catholic prime minister?
>There are about 5.5M Roman Catholics in Britain today, and about 27M
>Anglicans.
>Therefore we might expect about one PM in five to be Roman Catholic, in
>the absence of factors working against this.
>
>Well, has there ever been a Catholic prime minister of Britain?
>
>
>Trelford "no Gladstone, Disraeli, or Churchill jokes here" Pinkerton.
>--
>   Inventor of the Lambada-Calculus.
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:03:39 GMT

From article <27421@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, by mike@frey.lbl.gov (Michael Helm):
> Graham Walker writes:
>>c) Personally, I am on the fence. My view is that lallans is merely old
>>english with bits from gaelic, fressian, and norse thrown in, and that
>>any grammer differences that do exist are because the grammer that is
>>associated with lallans is old english. Consequently, if the "world
> 
> No, I don't think this is rite, Scots English or whatever is
> as far away from Anglo-Saxon grammar as standard English(es).
> It too lacks all the complicated inflections & has different
> 3rd person pronouns (I think) than Anglo-Saxon dialects had.

What do you mean by "Anglo-saxon" grammer, both present day english and
lallans is present day Anglo-saxon grammer. How far back are you
refering too; if you mean the language in which Beowolf was written then
this is certainly true, but, what about Chaucer.

Also, I am unclear as to which "it" you are refering to in your last
sentence (infact could you retype your last sentence).

														GW

Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15882 alt.folklore.urban:28543 misc.legal:19944
From: tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Hidden Bills of Attainder? (was: The amazing disa
Date: 14 Nov 92 21:25:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95

silvers3@husc8.harvard.edu (Jolyon Silversmith) writes:
>From Black's Law Dictionary (Sixth Edition):
>
<A bill of attainder isthe "extinction of civilrights and capacities which took
>place whenever a person who had committed atreason or felony received sentence
>of death for his crime" by a specioal act of the legislature "without any
>conviction in the ordinary course of judicial proceedings." Similar acts
>imposing lesser penalties are also illegal under Article I, sec. 9 of the
>Constitution.

[Note: I deleted two spaces in the line marked '<' to get the line length
down to something normal.]

That's not what *my* copy of Black's Law Dictionary (Sixth Edition) says
under "bill of attainder."  I think you looked under "attainder" rather
than under "bill of attainder" and got the common law meaning.

--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.celtic
From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Reply-To: gdb15@cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:08:18 GMT

In article <23848.9211121140@thor.cf.ac.uk> spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr S J Morris 92) writes:

>What goes for Welsh goes for English dialects as well
>- by all means let people who understand them be free to use them to
>each other, but there still needs to be a 'standard' or 'correct'
>English which everybody is taught, just so that we can all communicate
>with one another!

I agree totally, except for that word 'correct' (even in quotes!).
Education shouldn't try to 'correct' dialect speech; standard
English should be taught as an alternative dialect, to be used
in appropriate circumstances.  Even monoglot English speakers
can be taught to be 'bilingual' (in a sense).

--
Guy Barry, University of Cambridge | Phone: +44 (0)223 334757 
Computer Laboratory                | Fax: +44 (0)223 334678
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street  | JANET: Guy.Barry@uk.ac.cam.cl 
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England, UK     | Internet: Guy.Barry@cl.cam.ac.uk 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15488 alt.folklore.urban:27864