From: covin@tartarus.uchicago.edu (David Covin)
Subject: Re: RE:wish spell results
Organization: University of Chicago Computer Science
	<1dt8fqINNo6r@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:20:20 GMT

In article <1dt8fqINNo6r@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> trottibw@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu(Barry Trottier) writes:

>In article <Nov.10.14.34.48.1992.9582@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
>ghuber@gandalf.rutgers.edu (George Huber) writes:
>> 1) "wish that that the next attack spell that I throw will do maximum damage
>>    to its targets"
>> 
>> 2) "wish that all the targets of the next attack spell that I throw fail to 
>>    resist it's effects"
>

>I have DMed a few times where the players or opponents used wishes and I never  
>allowed a wish that would have a direct adverse effect on another sentient  
>being.

>Using a wish in manner #2 is basicly saying, ok, I wish all of you dead after I  
>cast my next spell.  (If this dude can cast wish, he/she can probably also cast  
>other L9 spells, and maybe one in particular out of the Tome of Magic:  Wail of  
>the Banshee.)  But, no matter what spells he/she has besides wish, he/she is  
>going to be able to totally decimate the party if they have no chance to save!!

Well, yes.  That's the point.  I'm kind of curious, myself, how the
party got themselves up this particular creek, and I hope they have
a goodly supply of paddles stashed away somewhere... Do they know
that their opponent could have a wish up his sleeve?  Do they care?
Were they screwed into fighting him by circumstances beyond their
control, or are they just foolish?

Notice, Mr. Trottier, that the wishes mentioned do *not* have a 
direct adverse affect on anyone-- he didn't just wish them dead,
or even wish them maimed.  He wished that the power of one of his
own spells would be amplified in certain specific ways.  Or,
conversely, that the PCs' performance would be *hindered* in certain
specific ways.

He might, for example, have wished that the next time he prononced
a certain word, anyone facing him would be teleported 50' directly
away from him.  Then, if he arranged to fight them on the edge of
a cliff, perhaps overlooking molten lava, the PCs would be doomed--
and, by your reasoning, "he's basically saying, ok, I wish all of
you dead after I maneuver you into a certain position."  Their death
*will* be the *effect*; but it's hardly so direct.  And a mass-
dimension-door or up-powered push effect is certainly within the
power of a wish.

Here's how I would analyze the wishes themselves: 1) is fine.  He's
just amplifying a spell within perfectly acceptable bounds.  If he
wanted to be real careful, he should specify the spell he wants 
amplified, in the wording of the wish; but I'd probably still allow
it.
   2) is kinda powerful.  I'd certainly allow it to rob one person
of a saving throw, or to give a minus to the saves of a group of
people (say -4).  I'd only allow it to rob a group of people of their
saves if the wish were from a powerful source, or wishes were
established in the campaign as being very powerful.  Again, he should
specify which spell he wants aided, and/or which targets he wants
hindered, or he may find that "attack spell" is much more broadly
construed than he thought...  ("Well, you summoned an elemental,
didn't you?" "Yeah, but--" "And boy, that elemental sure failed to
resist!  Came right at your beck and call." "But that's what always
happens!" "Oh, well..." "But that's not an attack!" "It is to the
elemental...")

In fact, "resisting its effects" is kinda vague too, especially for
a damage spell.  You could argue that if any damage is done, the
spell was not "resisted," since it had an effect.  This would result
in the wish being essentially wasted.  And any spell that does not
do physical damage, such as Mass Charm or Polymorph Others, you
could argue is *not* an attack.  Then about the only spells that
could be aided by Wish #2 would be Death Spell and Power Word, Kill.
I would still hold those spells to their maximum effect limit (if
the target has more than 60 h.p, Death Spell still doesn't affect it,
for instance), but give the opponents a saving throw penalty.

To be honest, I've always wondered a bit about the ban on Wishing
people dead.  There are several perfectly good Death Spells and
mega-damage spells that are sufficiently lower level to be well within
the power of a Wish.  If you're a feeble 4th level nothing and I
Wish you dead, particularly if I happen to be familiar with the
Death Spell and Wish you to suffer its effects, you should be toast.
But I digress.

You might also take a cue from old curses and just be very verbose
in discribing the misfortune you wish visited upon your targets.
"When next I cast forth the Fireball upon living targets, I seek that
those targets which I intend to harm thereby shall gain no aid from
fortune or skill in ameliorating its Awful effects.  Their Feet shall
stumble if they dodge aside; their Wills shall fail if they seek to
refuse its magic; no fortunate protrusion or hollow of Wall or Floor
shall shield them from its Blast.  To as great a Degree as this
Wish have power to so inflict my future Victims with Misfortune,
I Wish that this shall come to pass as I have said."

For such a wish as that, I would pick some arbitrary degree of
penalty-- say -20-- and divide it among all the targets the spell
was cast against, reducing each one's saving throw by that much.
I might make it a minimum penalty of -4, since there are high-level
group-affecting spells that give that much penalty to all the 
targets (I'm thinking of Mass Charm), and the Wish here doesn't
even have to provide the spell effect, just the save penalty.

Just my own take on the matter.

--
David Covin                           covin@despair.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd