HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:19:54 CDT
From:         "The Truth (some assembly required)" <T9AA@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: homosexuality

>>Sex with children?  "If it doesn't harm the child?"  How can it not?

>What's a child?

>My mother thinks her 30 year-old daughter is still a child.  However,
>most of us would agree that it's upto said daughter to decide whether
>or not a given sexual act/partner would harm her, no matter what said
>mother thinks.

Agreed.

>When does a "child" become competent enough to make that decision that
>society should stay out of it even if things don't work out?  Or, do
>we go with a "if it ends up causing harm, the state should step in"
>standard?

Assuming these questions are not rhetorical, I would say that, in
general, the 'age of consent' (or whatever) has been put higher today
than ever before, which is part of the reason we consider teenage
pregnancy as bad as we (as a society, not as a list) do.

It was not always this way. In the industrial revolution, it was
common to have 7- and 8-year-olds working, while today (excluding
babysitting, lawnmowing and newspaper delivery) anyone younger than
twice that age is considered too young to work. While I am not
calling for an end to child-labor laws, I do think our society
strongly undervalues the intelligence and abilities of young people,
and since, in general, people rise to the expectations given them,
this lack of expectation is the cause of many of the problems that
have been bounced around on this list for the last few days.

As for the answers, I don't think anyone so far has realistically
thought about it. The "labor camp" ideas that came from Robert
are specifically dumb. They not only treat youth as a second-class
citizen, they reinforce the "authorities as fascists" syndrome that
IMHO causes the "joyriding" and other anti-authority behavior. The
kind of jobs allowed for youth are only slightly less of a slap in
the face. After working for a while at Wendy's of Las Vegas, an
equal opportunity exploiter, the only things I learned were 1) the
bosses are there to make your life miserable, 2) I never want to work
in food service as long as I live and 3) how to run a cash register.

Of course, since the "drop-out" rules are there to keep people out
of the work pool, I see no realistic way to fix this.

>-andy

Dave
t9aa@sdsumus.bitnet
If we restrict the reading of certain books until minds
are prepared for them, the minds will never be prepared
for them.
              --Sydney J. Harris.

Disclaimer: The opinions contained in this post are insightful
and brilliant. Obviously, these are not those of the Computer
Department, Administration, Faculty or Student Body of South
Dakota State University.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:52:43 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...
              7 Sep 1992 15:24:37 BST from <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>

Dunstan:

When you speak of "Active Citizenship," it sounds a lot like what we
call "civic responsibility"--another thing that used to be standard
teaching in schools that has fallen by the wayside.

Your examples indicate people who do not care enough to become involved
in governing themselves and therefore require governing.

Here are 2 more:

This past week was "Safety Week" on campus.  On Monday, after much
publicity, the "Take Back the Night march" (which was supposed to
express to the Administration the students' desire for better lighting
on campus) was held.  Less than 100 people showed up, so it was
postponed until there could be "better publicity" for the event.
(Interestingly, 10,000 people had showed up for a free concert
the previous day, which did not recieve the same level of publicity
as the March.)

On Tuesday, the Student Safety Forum was held (again, widely publicized).
This was an opportunity for students to talk to police and security
officers about what *they* felt needed to be done to improve campus
safety.  No students showed up.  The organizers, the police, and a
concerned parent did.

Conclusion?  Students as a whole do not care whether there are more
lights on campus or not, and have *no* interest in telling the police
how to do their jobs.  Therefore, those who are charged with making
those decisions are free to do so without consulting the students.

I am not saying that people have to vote.  But if they refuse to even
inform those who are governing them of their opinion, they have an
obligation to take whatever they get and shut up about it.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:43:03 -0500
From:         ANTHLAL@UMNACVX.BITNET
Subject:      i thought i explained that....

i can't seem to get the books returned on time because it is nigh unto
impossible to determine when they are due, roger.
i thought i covered that.
when someone else wants them (and that is baffling to me...the demand for
german idealist philosophy...in german, no less...strikes me as being
rather low), i happily and promptly return them.  let 'em ruin someone
else's life.
                    * * anneliese
From: gpn0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (GARY PHILIP NEWHART)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Alleged Overpoulation (was Re: let's rephrase the question)
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:51:11 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <POLITICS%92091011494035@OHSTVMA.IRCC.OHIO-STATE.EDU>, KSTE@PURCCVM.B
ITNET (Kerry Stephenson) writes:
>Dunstan is right.
>
>Population is not the problem.  And it is even less of a problem in
>the United States, where the population growth has remained below
>replacement level since 1972.
>
>We aren't having too many children; we are having too few.

You have got to be kidding with this analogy. Since when is the US the only
parcel of land on the planet? I question the figures that the population in
the US is sub-1972 levels. Would you cite the references. Another point:
Rhetorically, can you explain over crowding?>
>--Missy P 2 B
>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:24:49 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Andy,Leader(on&off),

>"Advocacy groups" do, and I'm sure a chunk of Ducks Unlimited's
>funding goes to some guy in DC whose job is to schmooze with
>Legislative Assistants.

Yup, but it isn't most of their money.  Most of DU's money goes to
actually getting the job done, instead of begging/demanding that
someone else do it.  (Nature Conservancy appears to work the same way;
it isn't a hunters group but doesn't appear to be hunter-hostile.  I
"remember" that WWF is similar.)

>And Pam, I think the distinction he's talking about could be said
>like this : Killing Things/Caring about the Environment.
>
>Not that he'd portray it that way . . . .

Sure he would.

>You talk as if the hunter is the best of all environmentalists and
>while I accept Ducks Unlimited and other hunter groups as effective
>in their fields, they are not the heart and soul of the environmental
>movement.

No, I see the hunter as the most effective of all environmentalists.

I agree that hunters aren't considered the heart and soul of the
environmental movement.  That tells you something interesting
about the environmental movement.

-andy
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:43:56 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Barron v Baltimore

Ooooh. Nice cite.

1833, by the way.

Barron said that the Mayor and the City Council of Baltimore had made
his wharf useless, by diverting the flow of streams in the course of
construction work. The trial court awarded Barron damages, but the state
appellate court reversed. Barron claimed that the state's action
violated the Fifth Amendment "taking" clause. The Supreme Court had to
decide whether that clause applied to states as well as to the federal
government.

Chief Justice Marshall wrote the opinion:

The question [is], we think, of great importance, but not of much
difficulty. The constitution was ordained and established by the people
of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not
for the government of the individual states. Each state established a
constitution for itself, and, in that constitution, provided such
limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government
as its judgment dictated....
If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood
as restraining the power of the general government, not as applicable to
the states....

Marshall then mentions the ninth section of Article I, which enumerates the
limitations intended to be imposed on the powers of the general govern-
ment, and the tenth section, which enumerates restrictions on state
legislatures. He reasons that since limitations on state legislatures
are enumerated expressly, the fifth amendment could not be interpreted
as a limitation on states unless it also included such express wording
("No state shall...."), which it does not.

The Court dismissed the case for want of jurisdiction.



Jamie
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:56:45 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is homosexuality immoral?\

>From:         ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET

>Can you say "hubris?"

Hmm. Well, I can try. But it's a tough word to pronounce properly.
Do you have any advice?

Jamie (pro-hubris)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:15:00 EDT
From:         GRACZ1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

>Now this is a good thread to develop. I reckon precious metals will
>always have value but, for instance, we have already seen the market
>in classic cars bubble and burst. My money in the longer term is that
>the treasure will be water - we keep increasing our per capita
>consumption from a limitted supply.
>
>What do other readers think ?

  I think the next big thing will be alternative energy resources, like
 solar power and wind power, for two reasons.  When we finally run out
 of oil, everone's going to need it, and in the meantime, oil companies
 keep buying out companies that deal in alternative energy for
  large sums, to eliminate the competition.

>Dunstan - "Sorry honey I can't water the garden, there's not enough water"

G. Racz
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:45:31 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: what to do in a world that trivializes intelligence

 *** Resending note of 09/14/92 15:14
               14 Sep 1992 14:47:47 EST from <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUP UI.EDU>

 >Private schools can be good, bad, indifferent.  They can very well be a
 >solution for a family.  So can teaching at home.  What I object to is the
 >elite-ism that is promoted by (some) private schools.  One of the most

 "Elitism" is as misused as "racism".  They are both invoked by critics that
 have run out of, or never had, any legitimate objections.

 >educational aspects of public schools is for the child to find out that
 >not everyone is the same (same skin-color, same race, same religion, same
 >value placed on various aspects of our culture).  Diversity is NOT bad!  In

 The headmaster of our *private Christian* school recently claimed that we
 had 90 denominations in attendance.  I had a hard time believing there
 were actually that many different denominations in our city.  Off to the
 "Yellow Pages", I stopped counting at 100.  We also have several races but
 I don't have the numbers.

 >most cases diversity is good--see discussions on biological diversity.  We
 >grow when we have differences to reconcile.  Schools can be a place where
 >the reconciliation can take place.

 When the school atmosphere is Christ centered, the students don't seem to
 have such a great need to reconcile themselves to one another.  Why should
 they?  After all, they're children of the same "G"od.

 >But...
 >the parents who send their children to public or private school can not
 >abdicate their responsibility for raising said child.


 Rather than claim abdication,  wouldn't it be more accurate to acknowledge
 their above average involvement in their child's education?  Private
 education for our daughter has resulted in a much greater demand upon us
 as parents than public school.  Don't cry for us though, we're more than
 happy to make the necessary sacrifices for her.

 >The school is only a tool which can transfer knowledge, (whole knowledge
 >not just the part that is favored), it is not a replacement for the

 No, not just the favored part, but the flip-side is also true.  Education
 without biblical values can hardly be considered *whole knowledge*.

 >whole socialization process.
 >--Janet

 ---Robert
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:24:35 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: read my lips: I have family values

>The minimum wage bill was going to eliminate jobs and cause inflation,

And, it does.

That doesn't mean that it is necessarily bad, but it does mean that we
have to weight the costs against the benefits.  Denying that there are
costs is dishonest.

-andy

--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: 92price@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: re: A light snack
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:20:48 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Robert writes:
 
>  >Oh yeah, and just so you can think the worst of me, I think the age of
>  >consent should be puberty.
 
>  You'll fit right in with the NAMBLA ( North American Man Boy Love Assoc.),
>  give them a call.

Well, I'm now 26, and the absolute youngest that I can imagine being attracted
to would be a mature 18.  And I'm not very attracted to men.  I don't know a
lot about the group personally, but different strokes for different folks.
What matters is _consent_, and I think the group, if it is on the up-and-up, 
has a lot more moral health than your xian ministers who molest young boys
indescriminately and _without_ their consent.  I assume NAMBLA does not find
its younger members through abuse of postions of authority.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I think the real reason these people are against    |
abortion is so that we keep poppin' out kids--             |   Kai Alexis Price 
so they can molest them." -- Roseanne Arnold (paraphrase)  |       
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 17:18:41 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: democratic platform/homosexuality

JB:

Your observation is correct.  Sexual morality is, indeed, going out
the window, in large part because *we* as a nation threw it there.
We said, okay, we know that *no one* could possibly be sexually
moral, since some people are already immoral, so let's just tell
them that.  "Kids," we said, "We know you know sex is fun, and
we know you don't respect any adult enough to listen to us when
we tell you to wait until you are married, so here's how you do
sex, here's better ways to do it, here are some films of people
doing it to give you a better idea of what it's like, and here
are some condoms that *might* keep you from dying *when* you *do*
have sex (no ifs here).  But we wish you wouldn't."
  Then, just to make sure they got the message, we told them, every
single day of their lives, 50,000 times a day, "don't forget, if
you drink the right beer, wear the right clothes, drive the right
car, and use the right toothpaste, wildly attractive people of the
opposite gender (or not) will throw themselves at you in their
eagerness to have sex with you.  And if you don't, you will be a
miserable dweeb with no friends, and no one will ever have sex
with you.  PS:  If you don't have sex before you get married, you
will be socially undesirable, sexually retarded, and alone.  If
you do (just in case you forgot), you will be able to have great
beer, great clothes, great cars, white teeth, and plenty of
practical sexual experience that will enable you to better
please your partener--who will, of course, also have all these
wonderful things, because this is America."
  Then we said to ourselves, "Look.  Children having sex all over the
place.  No values.  No morals.  Can't imagine how this has happened.
Don't they have any sense?  Don't they know they could die?  Don't
they know anything about self-control?  Whose fault is this?  Can't
be ours, we did the right thing.  We just faced up to reality.  Must
be sunspots or something."
   Then we went back into the house to have a beer and watch "Nurses
and Babysitters" on the Playboy channel.
   Stupid kids.  How'd they ever get so immoral?
   Can't imagine.  No idea.  Must be the water.

---Missy P 2 B
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:56:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The War Between the Jasons

hey!

travis said something worthwhile; he compered jerry falwell to
a bathroom wall.

damn, i wish i thought that up first.

brni
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 13:54:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...

From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...

If you force the Nazi to deal with people he doesn't like, you have to
force other people to deal with the Nazi.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu

        the nazi shop owner can't disallow people he doesn't like
        from shopping in his store.  i can't disallow the nazi from
        shopping in my store.  but i don't have to go to his store,
        and he doesn't have to come to mine.

        brni
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:13:11 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bad v. Harmful

Regarding lying is an absolute bad:

A potential hostage taker in Beirut asks Missy if she is
American.  Now, what is Missy gonna do, lie and stay free
or tell the truth and become a hostage?

Now, Missy has acknowledged that people are entitled to kill
if their life is in danger (though she might not do that
herself).  Then why can't you lie in order to save your life?

--KAT
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 12:23:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports available.

From:   BITNET%"RUSSIA@INDYCMS.BITNET"      "Russia & her neighbors" 13-SEP-1992
 11:58:31.03
To:     Multiple recipients of list RUSSIA <RUSSIA@INDYCMS.BITNET>
CC:
Subj:   RFE/RL Daily Reports

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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:41:11 CDT
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From:         SGARDNER@BAYLRHSB.BAYLOR.EDU
Subject:      RFE/RL Daily Reports
Comments: To: RUSSIA@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU
To:           Multiple recipients of list RUSSIA <RUSSIA@INDYCMS.BITNET>

For those of you who are not receiving the RFE/RL Daily Reports,
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:25:00 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is homosexuality immoral?

JB:

You attribution of the Wiccan Rede to Jesus cannot go unchallenged.
When asked what the greatest commandment was, he replied that *first*
we are to love God and *then* love our neighbor.  This is *not*
the same.

--Missy P 2 B
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:19:40 -0400
From:         "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      Bush & education

 I just caught a few minutes of Mr. B live on CNN.  Along with his usual
 tripe about the need for a new global system, he actually offered a very
 interesting bit of info concerning our public education system.

 It seems that 46% of public school teachers in Chicago send their kids
 to ***PRIVATE SCHOOL***!  I wonder what the *other* NEA thinks of this?
 Personally, I find it rather encouraging that the teachers don't actually
 believe or endorse the policies of the National Education Association.

 He brought this up in his call for vouchers for private schools, a plan
 that I still vehemently disagree with.

 ---Robert

 "Abortion has saved us from looking at a lot of childish art"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:27:58 -0400
From:         "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      re: ERA

 Sex by definition covers not only the male/female anatomy, it *ALSO*
 covers sexual acts.  If you believe the ERA was written specifically for
 women, fine.  If you believe homosexuals would not have used it for other
 purposes, you're *EXTREMELY* naive.

 For those still hoping to salvage this garbage amendment, choose another
 word.  Remove any possibility of construing an *activity* and I'll vote
 for it.  Or, do you still deny your hidden agenda?

 ---Robert

 "Abortion has saved us from looking at a lot of childish art"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics