From: arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: Re: East Timor
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:43:06 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

-----start of forwarded msg from Benny

--[1]

Excerpted from:
>Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:50:00 EDT
>From: "Carl A. Trocki" <CTROCKI@GUVAX.BITNET>
>Subject:      Re: East Timor
>
>Nations observers and Red Cross personnel and international
>journalists could enter Dili and go around and talk to the people and
>send their own reports out, then we would be able to learn the true
>facts about what is there.  Ask yourself, why can't they go there? Why

Ask to the right persons who are in IG.

>is ET off-limits to foreign observers?  I think the reason is that
>they are ashamed of what people would see there.

May be, but you don't know and can't jump to the conclusion.

>But, I don't know
>for sure, because people can't go there and find out, so I can only
>speculate and listen to all of the information from all of the sources

There you go. Speculation.... Hmmm, a social justice movement based
on a SPECULATION. Alert!!!

>are accept what seems true and reject what seems false.
>                        Carl

Would you mind telling what your standard parameter looks like
for measuring the true and false things. I might learn from you.
Thanks.

--[2]

Excerpted from:
>Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:50:00 GMT
>From: "(ALVES)" <pires@VXCRNA.CERN.CH>
>Subject:      re: East Timor
>
>I don't have any intention to keep this polemic much longer (I don't
>believe any light comes out of endless discussions), but I want to
>clarify a few points in a reply to my message.
~~~~~~~~
It is not clear to me :-).

>In article <1992Oct13.220656.24347@udel.edu>, indra@earthview.cms.udel.edu
>writes.
>
(deleted)
>
>Again you follow very old Masters:  American settlers had to "punish" the
>Indians because they created "disturbance,"  Hitler had to "punish" the
>Resistants because they created "disturbance,"  and in general all the
>colonialists (including the Portuguese and the Dutch) had to punish the
>people in their colonies (including the Indonesians) because they created
>"disturbance."  You see, your ancestors will not like what you saying.

And.....you and your social justice movement have to "punish" IG because
they created "disturbance." You see, your ancestors will not like what
you saying :-). Just the other side of a coin.

(deleted)
>(NB:  I don't mean Indonesians are murderers and rapists, only a
>few ones which are selected to go to East Timor and other places where
>insurrections exist.)

I don't mean either all Americans resent or hate Indonesians. A lot of
my American friends feel sorry about this social justice movement.

> Ok,  I was not veement enough in describing the miserable conditions
> in which the people live there.  I let you do that:  ask all the East
> Timorese you know, or better yet, go there to see for yourself.  Then
> maybe you will stop laughing at others people suffering.

I begin to wonder. A long writing, but this is the main thing, I guess.
It is just the same if you wanna go to any Native-American village
and ask them why they are still suffered. Still you dont understand.

>(And let me say that most people in Indonesia will not benefit from it,
>only a very reduced circle.  So, why are you so much interested in
>defending those few?)

It is simple, because some ET brothers and sisters wanted to be part
of us. Anyway, can you speak bahasa Indonesia or Timor languages?

>Everybody else (including many Indonesian individuals and
>organizations) is demanding the right of self-determination for
>the territory.

That's why a friend from BrownU joined to protest Columbus Day :-).

>Don't you realize that you are hurting yourself?  Don't you realize
>that most of you do not benefit from the occupation,

Same to you :-).

>Let's do that?
>Rui

Yes let's do the best for our regional ourself.

wassalam,
Benny

-----end of forwarded msg

wassalam,
ar
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l