HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: International Gun Laws - Informational Posting
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:27:27 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

This is a reminder about an FTP archive with articles  describing
the   gun   legislation   of  various countries.  I would like to
thank all the authors for their contributions.

The articles are available via anonymous FTP from out  local  FTP
site  ftp.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  (128.130.39.16)  in  the  directory
/pub/misc/guns/gunlaw.  The README file there contains additional
information.

The gun laws of the following countries have  been  described  so
far:  ('->'  marks  signify  information that is new,  changed or
extended since my last post, that is, usually, since last week):

   Australia
   Austria
   Finland
   Germany
   The Netherlands
-> Switzerland
   United Kingdom

If you are versed in the gun laws of any country but  these  men-
tioned above (or if you find some important points not covered in
the  overviews)  please  send  me  mail  (I  can  be  reached  as
holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at).   Thanks in advance for your coopera-
tion.

Please contact me BY MAIL.  I am not able to monitor Usenet  news
on a regular basis.  Some articles might get purged before I read
them.

Note:  I won't cover US gun laws.  They are too diverse  and  are
covered by someone OTOSOTP anyway.  If anybody has a copy of Mike
Kielsky's CCW survey handy, I'll include it for sake of complete-
ness, though.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Neck sizing
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:55:57 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <27372@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#In article <1992Nov11.035257.22749@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com 
#(Peter Cash) writes:

[ questions about neck-sizing only when reloading 6.5 x 55 ]

#If that's one o' them rear lockup jobs, you may find that it stretches
#cases enough that you can't get away with neck sizing continuously. You
#may well have to full-length resize every time or every other time.  I'm
#no expert on the particular rifle I think you have, so this is just a
#caveat.  Generally, this is a pretty darned accurate cartridge/rifle as is.
#Have you had any accuracy trouble with it?  Just trying to improve it?

The main reason I was interested in neck sizing is that I hoped it might
prolong the life of the cases, and I wouldn't have to lube them. (Uck, I
hate lubing.) Well, some more accuracy wouldn't hurt...

So far, the consensus seems to be against neck-only sizing, anyway. Though
one person suggested that I simply take the full-length die and back it out
a bit.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:58 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <BxH1LF.IAw@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#[MODERATOR:  True... ditto on firing in low light conditions.  If you
#shoot a 9mm and get off one round, placed in low light with your Trijicon 
#sights, then one wonders how to get off the second aimed shot after your
#eyes have lots dark adjustment due to the big fireball in front of your
#muzzle .... Try it, you may switch back to flashlight techniques like I
#did.]

There are low-flash commercial loads available.  Reportedly Cor-Bon is
one such and ditto for Black Talon.  I haven't tried these in near-total
darkness but some other brands have not had visible flash in the reduced
light of a dark shooting station at the local indoor range.  On the
other hand, Remington .40S&W loads have all had extremely bright muzzle
flash.

The obvious problems with a flahslight:
(1) It too reduces your dark adaptation, to the point that you can see
what is happening ONLY within the circle of light.
(2) It provides a target location for the perp to shoot at or near.
From: euabin@eua.ericsson.se (Bjarne Nordberg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:51:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: eua.1992Nov9.145449.14643
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

Reading many elaborate suggestions, with great amusement,
regarding this, I did not see anyone suggest two harmless, but
fun targets: Ice blocks, and clay pigeons. Mold the ice in
used milk/drink canisters. Nice effects - no mess to clean up!
Clay pigeons make some debris, but is normally tolerated
at a shooting range...

Bjarne NORDBERG                                    ..   ..
Ellemtel Telecommunications Laboratories, S-125 25 ALVSJO
(direct tel: int+46 8 727 3902)

-- 
Hdlsningar,
Bjarne Nordberg            x 3902 101:013
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: The HK P7M8 - is it worth the $$$ ??
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:50:12 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <199211091857.AA03462@elf.wang.com> chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet) writes:
:loki@acca.nmsu.edu writes:
:
:#In article <9210310253.AA13629@afterlife.ncsc.mil> you wrote:
:#: 
:#: What both of us were wondering is if the HK is worth the cash? Also, are
:#: there any advantages of one over the other? I would appreciate any thoughts
:#: that anyone might have on this. Thanks in advance!
:#: 
:#: 			- Tim
:
:#also very well made, and, as far as I can tell, very accurate.  Worth
:#the price?  well, at $400 for a glock and $600 or so for a P7... I think
:                                            ^ upside down ?
:Nice pistol, but closer to $1000, like $950 for M8 and $1050 for M13
:and like $800 used.
:
: not a flame,
:  Chris

When you can find them in local stores here (LA), the P7M8 is about
$750, the P7M13 about $950, the P7M10 about $1050.

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: My Beretta and Me
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:48:13 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <199211090436.AA28180@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# I have always been proud of my stainless steel Beretta. However, something
# that happened this afternoon surprised me. Story follows.
# 
# After I shot my Beretta at a local gun club, I ran into my cop rifle teacher 
# and his friend. This cop is a firearm instructor in a local police department. 
# He teaches all kinds of firearms to civilians during the weekends to make 
# some extra $$$. Today he was shooting a Sig 220 in .45 ACP caliber with his 
# friend. He then invited me to shoot this particular handgun. 
# 
# This Sig 220 felt very nice in my hand and I got tighter groups than him
# and his friend. These groups are even tighter than those with my own
# Beretta. That made me wonder about my Beretta and me. 
# 
# I'm not bad with my Beretta. I took an intermediate combat action 
# shooting class when I was a student at UCLA. At the end of the class,
# they give us a contest. I was the champ with this Beretta. Other
# fellow students carried all kinds of fancy modified handguns. My point
# is that I'm not doing terribly with this Beretta. 
# 
# However, after shooting this Sig 220, I feel that I can shoot faster with
# this gun and get better groups. So my question for you ladies and gentlmen
# is if I should part with my Beretta? My hands are of medium size. I can 
# handle my .44 Desert Eagle ok with them. However, with the slim grip design
# of the Sig 220, I can shoot faster and get tighter groups. So, what
# should I do with my shinny Beretta? I'm thinking to trade it in for
# a Sig 226. ( Sorry my fellow Beretta lovers... :(
# ( Or, trade it in for a Sig 220 in 9mm caliber? )
# What do you guys think? Thanks. ( BTW, the purpose of this handgun
# is for self-defense. )

I'd suggest messing around with the Sig and the 92FS some more so as not to
base your decision on just one days shooting.  I'm own a beretta (amoung
others) and think very highly of it, but you must keep in mind that weapon
selection is a very personalized thing so you shouldn't feel any "guilt" over
swtiching over to a weapon that fits you better.
 
As an example, I have a friend who just loves his 92 compact, but when I was in
the market for a compact 9mm, I found that I just didn't like the beretta
product because my hands were too big for it so I ended up with a 6906 (which
worked much better for me).  And I'm a big Beretta fan. 
 
And I'd suggest shooting a 226 before making your decision since the 220 you
used is going to feel a little different.  Sigs a great weapons also. 
Personally, I'd be comfortable with with the 92FS or the 226.
 

# 
# David
# -- 
#  K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
#  Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
#  U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: adam@aj.clubfed.sgi.com (Adam C. Joseph)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Walther TPH .22
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:53:03 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.


-- 

I am looking for a very reliable pocket pistol for personal defense, and
after looking at comparable Beretta's and others I had the TPH recommended
to me.

I am familiar with the PPK (too large for this application), and I am
looking
for feedback on the TPH.  Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance,

adam (adam@aj.clubfed.sgi.com)
From: mauritz_c@spcvxb.spc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:24:36 GMT
Organization: SPC Community Access System

In article <199211120454.AA03616@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# In article <9211111515.aa29400@s.s.ms.uky.edu> eric@ms.uky.edu (Eric H. Herrin II) writes:
# #Well, I just picked up a Colt Sporter Competition HBAR for a great price, but
# #the two mags it came with are 5 round (20 round with a filler).  Anybody
# #have any recommendations about where to pick up some 20rd+ mags?  I'm not
# #looking for junk; I'd prefer a very well-made 3rd party or original colt.
# 
# Please post the response you receive.
# 
# I use a 30rd mag. made by THERMOLD. Even though it is made of plastic,
# it appears to be fairly well made. It is more expensive than other
# mags that I've seen; I paid $16 for it. I was told that the Canadian
# military uses it as their standard M16 mags. I've shot 100 rounds using
# this particular mag. and didn't have any problems with it.
# Anyone has experiences with this THERMOLD mag too?

I use US Army mags (30 rounds) that I bought at a gun show a while 
(4-5 years) ago.  They work just fine for me and you can probably get
them for less than $10 apiece.  The beauty of these is that they are
not too difficult to take apart if they get dirty.

Cheers,

Chris
From: elauren@hubcap.clemson.edu (Addison Laurent)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Firing w/o chambered shell (was: Psychology in Defense)
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:20:07 GMT

Holger Reusch (holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at) writes:
#efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes, among other things:
#BTW, my standard method of storing my shotgun (9 shot pump) is with 
#safety OFF and an EMPTY (already fired) round in the chamber to make 
#cycling the slide possible without hitting that stupid little 
#pump-release on the reciever. I think it is the safest way to go. 

#Is anything wrong with firing the gun w/o a chambered shell?  Ru-
#mor has it that the firing pin crystallizes and might be prone to
#break.  Is there any truth in this?  I found no mention  of  this
#in the user's manual packed with the shotgun.

I have heard (I believe mainly in Guns and Ammo Magazine) that
dry-firing a "modern" gun is OK. I have also heard (and makes sense to
me) that storing a gun "cocked" is very bad - it stretches the spring.

As a result, my father and I routinely dry-fire guns after unloading
them (to de-cock them) and have never had a problem. (With some of the
guns being older than I am)

Then Scot Heath said:
{method of storing shotgun with loaded rounds in the magazine, and
hammer down on empty chamber}

Why on earth do you do this?  If you can rack the slide without pulling
the
trigger, it means the gun is in the "fired" state. If you can't, pull
the
trigger! I see no need to go through steps 3, 4, 5, and 6 which amount
to
nothing more than putting the gun in the same stat it's in now.

I'm not sure exactly what he's saying... Is it, leave it cocked, and
pull the trigger before using it? I don't like that - the point is,
should it be needed, no all you have to do is grab the shotgun, rack the
slide, and there is a live round, ready to go. No fooling for the little
button, no worry for accidental discharge, kids fooling with it, etc.

I suppose you might as well pull the trigger - but see above - that
requies storing it for periods of time with a spring under tension -
which I feel is a detriment to operation.

Addison
From: bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:01:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpfcmgw.9211131653.AA05006

Thank you for your great moderating job on rec.guns.

Don't change anything.

Every discipline has folks who don't like the way it's structured.

Every discipline has a million times more folks who like it as it is.

Remember that every rose bush has a few thorns.
From: mkilpela@mtu.edu (Mark E. Kilpela)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Questions about Boommers
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:44:57 GMT
Organization: Michigan Technological University

In article <viking.721032334@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan
Sorenson) wrote:
# 
# scollins@carson.u.washington.edu (Richard Collins) writes:
# 
# #I've got a couple of questions regarding black powder rifles.
# 
# 	<ahem!> Fire away...  <snicker>
# 
# #1.  Who is a good company to order or purchase one from.  Some
# #   have pointed me in the way of Thompson Center and also Dixie,
# #   are there others?
# 
# 	For starting out, I would highly recommend the Thompson
# Center Renegade model.  It is inexpensive (I got mine for $95 in kit
# form about four years ago.  Look for $120-150 these days), durable,
# and has no fancy brass or other gunk that requires constant cleaning.
# With black powder, you'll clean enough as it is.  It's also accurrate
# as can be for black powder, not too heavy, and simple to build.  Think
# of it as the M14 of black powder rifles.
#
 
 I agree with Dan. I also own a Thompson Center Renegade which I purchased
in finished form. Since I have refinished the stock to my preferences
(linseed oil), and consider it excellent quality for cost. The service from
Thompson Center is excellent!!! I lost the screws from the rear sight and
wrote to find out ordering info & pricing, and lo & behold, in a week I
received in screws at no cost, without me even ordering them. That's a
class company in my book!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark E. Kilpela                          email mkilpela@mtu.edu  
Michigan Technological University        phone   906-487-2264
School of Technology 
Home of the Huskies
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Small revolvers (was autos) for carry
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:10:55 GMT
Organization: "Well, a head on top, an arm on each side, two legs...."

In <9211120137.AA02142@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> syoung@pecanpi.UUCP (Stan Young) writes:
#In article <1992Nov10.062351.13270@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#Well, the good news is that they made a version - the 3913N - that was the
#same frame as the LadySmith 3913, but it doesn't have the LadySmith name.
#The bad news is that according to a report I read a while back, when S&W
#cut back on the number of guns they make, they cut out both the 3913N and
#the LadySmith semi-auto.

Speaking of Smith, I thought they had an SP101 equivalent, but I was at the
store today, and we couldn't find anything even remotely similar in their
lists.  I'd really like an SP101, but I'd really like *not* to give any 
money to Mr. Bill.  (I'd *really* like to find someone who wants to sell
an SP101.... :-)

Any recommendations for similar?

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Small autos for carry (was Re: I picked PPK/S over Mustang and 380 backup....)
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:52 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes:

#Number three is improtant here. I got all excited the other day about
#an ad in the local paper that had these Hungarian PPK clones (made by
#KBI) for $170. When I went to check them out, I found that the trigger
#pull was TERRIBLE. My wife really had to struggle to fire double action.

	I just converted most of my investments into cash to pay off a
few outstanding debts, and decided I had a bit left to play with.  As
Clinton will be taking office, an "assault weapon" is on the list.  But,
for only $170, that KBI looks like a steal.  Does anybody have one that
has been worked over by a gunsmith?  It's hard to find an action that
cannot be improved, and for another $100 to the smith you're still
looking at a fairly inexpensive handgun.

	BTW: we just had a request for what to look for in choosing
a used revolver.  I'm hoping for a summary soon.  Would anybody
care to comment on what to look for in a used semi-auto?  Mail to me
will be summarized and forwarded with names removed (mail it private!)
unless so requested by the sender.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about...
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:25 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <9450@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:
#
#Does anyone know anything about the Tokarev semi-auto pistols in 9mm?
#Are they accurate? 
#Dependable?

I have never shot one, but the reputation (like many Soviet designs) is
utter reliability, OK accuracy.  Don't expect a target gun: triggers and
sights can leave something to be desired.  However, the mechanical accuracy
of the gun itself is rumored to be pretty good.

#I've seen them for just a little over a hundred bucks dealer price and if they
#are in fact a decent gun and you don't care much for looks they might be a
#steal.  

My biggest hangup is that they are single action pistols WITH NO SAFETY.
Thus, they should only have a round chambered just before you are about
to shoot it.  IT would leave a lot to be desired as a carry gun, but might
not be bad if you are just looking for a cheap shooter.

All of this applies to the original in 7.65x25 Tokarev caliber.  I would
doubt much would change by simply changing the caliber to 9mm.
-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Recommended .45ACP and .40S&W Target Loads
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:57:28 GMT
Organization: who knows

I am interested in recommended loads for .45 ACP and .40 S&W.  The loads
will be used in shooting NRA bullseye indoor matches at 50 feet.  The course of
fire consists of 10 rounds of slow fire in 10 mins.; 2 strings of 5 rounds of
timed fire in 20 sec/string; and 2 strings of 5 rounds of rapid fire in 10
sec/string. The loads should be accurate but somewhat mild to allow rapid
acquisition of the target in the rapid fire strings. 

Thanks.
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A "must" for the reloading bench
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:06:46 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Nov9.162509.9223@btree.uucp> btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
#In article <1992Nov5.184250.25800@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#This has reminded me of something that I've been meaning to ask -
#how does one disassemble a damaged .22RF cartridge?  I have accumulated
#a handful of these and I keep forgetting to take them to the range
#so I would like to disassemble them, reclaim the bullet lead, burn
#the powder, and fire the primers.  Thanks.

Well, if you must (there's not a lot of lead in a .22LR) you could
disassemble them the way they do .50 BMG: pile 'em up in a drum and
get it real hot.  The powder burns off, the bullet plops out and 
the primer goes "bang!".  Let the mess cool and pull out the brass
and lead.

I'd use a small coffee can and place a larger one over it before
heating on a camp stove or something.  None of the bullets will be
able to penetrate, but watch out for bits and pieces of the shells -
the .22LR case fragments a bit when you burn them in this way. 
Nothing will penetrate the metal coffee can though - likely couldn't
penetrate cardboard (I'v got the references for those inclined to
disagree).

I wouldn't bother to try to salvage the lead, though.  It's usually
pure lead and quite soft.  If you want a good casting alloy get some
wheelweights, if you want pure lead go to a metals salvager.  A .22LR
averages something like 42 grains of lead - it's going to take 150 of
these to get near 1 pound of lead.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "Cooler Powders", Say what?
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:06 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 6 Nov 92 01:57:23 GMT, dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) said:

Don> If you have seen this month's American Rifleman, there is an article
Don> by Finn Aagaard on "cooler burning" nitrocotton powders from the UK.
Don> The idea is that these powders burn cooler while still pushing the
Don> bullet at the same velocity. This, we are told, will reduce barrel
Don> erosion. Now thermodynamics was never my strong suite, but I am having
Don> trouble understanding how a powder can burn "cooler" and still produce
Don> the same pressure and, hence, the same velocity. Mr. Aagaard's article
Don> did little, to put it mildly, to explain this or prove that it was
Don> true.

Don> It seems, to me, that accelerating a bullet down the bore to some
Don> velocity just requires some given amount of energy and that the
Don> only way get that energy is by burning calories (joules) that show
Don> up as heat.

Well, this is just speculation, but what is pushing the bullet down
the barrel is not combustion or heat or calories, but the expanding
gases.  If the powder can be modified to burn at a lower temperature
and generate more gas per calorie, then you could indeed get the
described behavior.

-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121