From: duncan@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (Duncan McCardle)
Subject: Re: lighten up, people
Keywords: faith 
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:13:47 GMT

tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mr. Mensa ) writes:

(* various deleted *)

>>I would LOVE to lighten up, unfortunately some people *do* take the bible
>>literally, and they wont 'Lighten Up'. So while religious beliefs, in all
>>their myriad forms, threaten my (or anyone else's) freedoms, while believers
>>continue to harass me and insult my opinions and treat me with intolerence
>>and hatred, while all this continues to occur I'm afraid I'm NOT going to
>>lighten up. All I want is to be left alone to live my life as I see fit.
>>I'm only too happy to extend the same courtesy to everyone else, but I'll
>>defend myself against anyone to tries to tell me what to think. 

>	Again, do you have some sort of problem that perhaps some people
>	believe differently than you? I believe there have been some
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have no problem with what others believe or think, it's their actions I
have trouble with. As far I'm concerned everyone should be free to think
what they like. 

>	wonderful thinkers in this century who have also had problems
>	with those who thought differently than themselves.....Hitler and
							       ^^^^^^^^^^
>	Stalin are two that come to mind right now........... And another
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm not sure I agree with the example of Hitler & Stalin as wonderful
thinkers. Anyway their primary concern was less with what people thought,
than with stopping them saying it or acting on it.
PS: I hope you weren't attempting to compare me to Hitler & Stalin.

>	thing....I am not trying to tell you what to think...in fact, I am

But I think you are. If I feel strongly about something I don't see why I
should 'Lighten up' about it. (This is not to say a sense of humour is 
excluded, if it's funny I'll laugh at jokes about [almost] anything.)
Shouldn't YOU lighten up about your religion, perhaps skip mass a few
times, don't confess all your sins, it's not THAT important is it ?

>	not the sort of person who does that, and you shouldn't assume that
>	most who are Christians (or any other faith for that matter) would
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well I beg to differ, if the fundamentalist religions aren't trying to make
everyone believe and behave like they do, then what are they trying to do ?
To use a hoary old chestnut, the Inquistions (on all sides) in the Bad Old
Days were very much a 'thought police'. Do you think there is NO chance of
that happening again ?
To use a less extreme example, if my Significant Other and I were to get
married then we would be subjected to a lot of pressure to have a church
wedding, and all the other stuff. If we were to just live together then 
some people (almost all church-goers included) would judge us to be 
'sinful'. Strangely enuf I don't *like* people judging me. In a less
tolerant society the penalty for 'sinning' could be severe, and many (if
not the majority of) Christians would like to introduce a less tolerant
society.

>	like to tell you what to think, either. All I am trying to do here
>	(as I have said before) is to strike up a NON-EMOTIONAL discussion
>	with someone who believes differently than myself. I think it would
>	be very interesting, and if EITHER ONE OF US should change the way
>	we think, then oh well...that's not my intention at all.

>	In Nomine Patris et filiis et Spiritus Sancti....
>	thomas ehardt
>	tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

I'm sorry if you consider my examples EMOTIONAL, I'd be happy to discuss
this issue on a purely intellectual, logical level. For instance, using 
pure reason, I can't see any physical evidence for the existance of a god
therefore why invent one? I agree that the Laws of Physics etc are not at
odds with your concept of your god, neither however are they at odds with
many other concepts of gods. Therefor all these concepts have equal validity.
There are a lot of other (even stranger) ideas that have no direct 
evidence against them, however they have no evidence FOR them either. I
would be interested to know why anyone should believe in something merely
on the basis of absence of knowledge. 

You said you were Catholic, you also defined your concept of god, now do
you also believe in all the official teachings of the Church ? Such as
the Trinity, Mary (virgin birth)(if it was virgin, where did the Y
chromosome come from ?), all the miracles, Jesus rising from the dead,
no contraception, etc. Is YOUR definition of God at odds with the Pope's,
who's right? 

Duncan McCardle.