HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sbb1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Shay B. Berthelson)
Subject: Re: Novel or Play??
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 04:40:03 GMT

miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes:
>If you decide to go with the play, the novel has give you quite a detailed
>synopsis; and if you decide to go for the novel, then you have certainly
>fleshed out your character's dialogue through the play.:)

>Actually, this is not as silly as it seems.  As dialogue is not my
>one of my strongest points, I often sit down and "talk" to my characters,
>as if I had jsut met them; or as if I was another charcter with whom I
>want them to interact (writing it down as I go).  I find that it really
>helps me not only refine dialogue, but I get to know my characters a
>little better.

>Hey, aren't all writers crazy anyway? :)

>Hope this helps,

Well for those of you who can understand, and maybe give me some insight. 
My problem is not dialogue.  I can write dialogue all day long.  I really
enjoy improvisational acting.  So I find what I want the dialogue about
and act it out in my head as I write.  Being all the characters, individually
and collectively (If that makes sense).  My problem is... I can't become 
comfortable with the actual author explanation or action in a novel format.
I can view what I see the characters doing.  But I can't write it to sound
like a novel.  The best I can do is write very detailed explanations of the
surroundings and the characters.  The reason I don't just go with a play is
the multi-settings and the ability to show the characters thoughts which you
get through a novel.  I also like the idea of a wider spread audience.  I 
am fairly good at asides and monolouges, but no one likes a play chock full
of them.  Well I could be wrong.  Neil Simon is very good with monologues.
The question is How do you get out of the strict dialogue routine in writing
for a novel??  I want so bad to do this correctly.  The present idea is
to lengthy and in depth, I believe, for a play.  

Any more suggestions.
?

Shay B.

>Morgana
--
******************************************************************************
** Shay B. Berthelson ******   Don't call me WHITE ***************************
** sbb1@Ra.MsState.EDU *****   I am Danish American **************************
******************************************************************************
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: King size writer.
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:58:03 GMT
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET's message of 28 Sep 92 14:49:27 GMT

In article <92272.074927KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Jon L. Campbell) writes:

>Hello, everyone in netland.  I'm glad to be here, so to speak.  After
>you read this, you may thank yourselves for staying in there no matter
>how much negative feedback you received from your writing.
>
>I have been reading one of the supposed 'masters' of the horror genre
>lately, and lo and behold, I am tickled pink.  Why, you ask?  Well for
>starters, I am thrilled that Mr. King is such a big hit with his style
>of writing and the depth of his plots.  Because . . . this means that
>he has circumvented a lot of the basic elements of writing and has
>gotten away with it.
>
>I will not go into depth on the specifics of his fictional mechanics,
>but rather broadly examine some of the rudimentary failings of his and
>let the net pick out others.  Why, you ask?  Because, if King can write
>novels that lack the fundamental principles of creative writing, then why
>should their be rules in the first place.  I'm speaking of such things as:
>Point of view, voice, grammer, construction, story development, etc.
                       ^^^^^^^
> [examples of Stephen King's ineptness removed]

The poster has bascially said that King *in this book* is not a very
good writer.  He appears, from this point (which may or may not be
valid -- I haven't read it yet) to have lept to the conclusion that
Stephen King is, in general, not a very good writer.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly.  King has written many novels
that are compelling and rich.  That, of course, is not the point.

The point is this: you must bear in mind that he's now an 800-pound
gorilla, and that he may in fact be getting more lazy and/or
self-indulgent (and his editors are powerless to stop that).

It *doesn't* mean that you could make a million overnight by writing a
better horror novel than him.  You see, he's got that whole
reputation thing going for him.

Also, someone as experienced and skillful as Stephen King may be able
to break many of the "rules" of creative writing and get away with it.
Don't think you'll be able (or allowed) to do the same.

jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
From: v096my2q@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (ZORBA THE GEEK)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Semantics of "to be"
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:29:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <15892@mindlink.bc.ca>, Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes...

>seems to me that instead of eliminating "To Be" we might add new variations
>which give grades of exclusivity.
> 
> 
>"To Be" -- 'to have the attribute of'
>"To Ba" -- 'attributed to the set of'
>"To Bu" -- 'to exist in the state of'
> 
>--
>Alan Barclay
> 

Are you serious or is this some kind of joke? How long do you think it will
take before 'they' add these words to the spell checking dictionaries?


M
From: lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Integrated writer software
Date: 30 Sep 92 03:11:18 GMT
Reply-To: <lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

One of my students from Ghana has graduated and is now writing and producing 
plays.  He called today to ask me to talk with him about computer resources 
and skills he should cultivate now that he has mastered word-processing.  

I plan to take him to a conference in NYC next week, regarding integration 
of video, graphics, audio, text......    Are there online discussions of 
writers using these together?  Does anyone have a bibliography to share with 
him?

Louie


-- 
  ==========================================================================
  Louie Crew, Assoc. Prof., Academic Foundations Dept., Rutgers U./NWK 07102
  lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu                                   201-485-4503
                            Closets are for prayer!
From: lightnin@bernoulli.WPI.EDU (Paraaaaaaaaade of Shoooooooooes)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: ScriptTex
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:44:50 GMT
Organization: DeityCo: Major and Minor Deities Placement Agency
NNTP-Posting-Host: bernoulli.wpi.edu

I believe it was in this group that I saw mention of the program ScriptTex.
I was wondering where you can get a copy of this program, I have a script
(sort of) and I'd like to put it in some kind of LaTeX format to get cleaner
prints of it, and if this program is what it sounds like it might be useful.
Any pointers out there?

-lightnin

    /| Lightning: (n) A Force of Nature consisting of an electric discharge.
   / |_Virtual Enterprises, GmbH: Bureaucracy Inaction! 
  /_  /=======================================================================
   / / |Up the long ladder, and down the short rope,       |Email: 
  / /_ |to Hell with King Billy, and God bless the Pope,   |lightnin
 /_  / |if that doesn't do, we'll tear him in two,         |@wpi.wpi.edu
  / /  |and send him to Hell with his red, white, and blue.|__________________
 / /   |                                    -Traditional Irish Children's Song
/ /===========================================================================
|/ "Dark is not one of my favorite colors." -Ralph, the All Purpose Animal.
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Natalie Goldberg & teaching writing
Date: 28 Sep 1992 10:17:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu




In a previous article, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) says:
>
>	Yeah, well, that may or may not be true, but I'm still more inclined to
>listen to advice about writing from someone whose writing I have read and 
>admire than from someone whose writing about writing is the only thing I have
>to go on. 

This sounds reasonable, but in practice, I have not found that the advice
of those whose fiction writing I enjoy is always, or even usually, more
helpful than that of those whose fiction I haven't read or don't enjoy. 
Sometimes it's a genre thing; I can get good advice from people who write
-kinds- of fiction I don't read much.  Sometimes it's a mind-set thing, a
writer whose mind seems to create in ways that my mind can follow, whether
or not the end result is something I want to read. 

And some people just seem to know how to dissect what they do, or figure
out what works for others, in a way that's enormously helpful.

For someone with that ability, it may be easier to teach than to do, as
it's easier to scratch someone else's back than your own.  That doesn't
make their advice less valuable.

Bonita Kale
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Screenwriter's Product
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:11:20 GMT
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com's message of 24 Sep 92 17:03:15 GMT

In article <57680031@hpscit.sc.hp.com> fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher) writes:

>I have a question for the screenwriters out there.  (We seem to have
>emerged from the shadows lately, huh?)  
>
>From time to time we hear loud complaints from screen writers about how
>the director (usually, although sometimes it's the producer or studio)
>has ruined their movie.  They say the final vision on the screen was not
>what they wrote at all.
>
>My question is: What do you, as a screen writer, think your final
>product is... a movie, or simply a script?  Clearly, your influence on
>the film as seen by audiences will be dependant upon your involvement in
>the production.  But I'm wondering what your mindset is as you write the
>initial script.  Do you feel you are writing a movie that you would
>expect to see on the screen pretty much as you envisioned it, or is the
>movie (the film itself) someone else's project?
>

Okay, well, what I do is I write the movie in my head, and lay that
out on the page.  Of course, I know that it's not going to end up that
way (in fact, I know it a lot more viscerally now that I just finished
a "minor rewrite" for a producer that left maybe 5% of the script the
same).

The reason that writers get upset, I think, is because regardless of
how much we've read and heard, most of us believe that
Producers/Directors can recognize what's good and leave it alone (at
least in OUR writing ;-).  So, when someone comes in and starts making
stupid requests, we're a bit stunned.

By the time things have spun totally out of control, with changes on
the changed changes, there are plot holes, motivational gaps, and just
plain dumb shit moments.

We feel mind-raped and stupid, and a little to a lot depressed about
what might have been.

Of course, there's also the off-chance that you'll get a brilliant
producer or director who will make it better, but even then you've got
your own ego to fight through to see it.

jas

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: 30 Sep 92 05:44:02 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Actually, you can't afford to write two to three times as much as the finished
book will hold...Despite my previous arithmetic embarrassment, let me try to
work something out.

Suppose you're writing a novel of 100,000 words. Suppose it take you two hours
to write a thousand words of finished text. That mean you'll take 200 hours to
complete your ms.

A first novel for the paperback mass market will probably earn an advance of
$5000. That works out to $25 an hour...not a bad return, but not great. The
longer it takes, the more time you spend fussing and revising, the lower your
hourly rate.

In today's market, Flaubert would have found that le mot juste was worth about
2 cents.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:41:17 GMT

Your numbers looked fine to me---I thought everybody wrote two to
three times as much as would fit in the finished book.  Some people
publish it all as a trilogy, that's all.

Pending,


Elizabeth Willey
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach)
Subject: The right place to ask this question?
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 22:39:30 GMT

Hi, folks,
A few weeks ago on news.newusers.questions, I posted:
 
 "What is the best newsgroup that can answer this question?"   
  
  The answer I received was THIS newsgroup.  
  So here goes:
   
   ------------
   It looks like I may be writing, editing AND desktop-publishing
   someone's one-issue 'zine soon.  This person is a "great" in his
   field.  He has seen how professionally I've handled the ongoing
   writing, editing and desktop publishing of my OWN little 'zine. 
   I appreciate his work quite thoroughly and he knows it.  Thus it
   is a MAJOR complement that he would want me (me?!!) to chronicle
   his life and career on paper.  (Wouldn't surprise me a bit if it
   became the precursor to a book someday!)
    
    Unfortunately, all the writing, editing and DTP work I have done
    for my own little 'zine has all been just a labor of love.  I
    have never done this kind of work for another person before.  I
    don't even know how to evaluate my own services in terms of
    money.  
     
     THE QUESTION(s):  I know that The Artist would be quite flexible
     in negotiating the price for my services.  Knowing him by now,
     he'd probably even be rather generous.  But (for example) I don't
     know if $200 would be too much or if $2000 would be too little! 
     How do I set the fee for my services?  What are the professional
     criteria which should I consider in the price that I charge?  
     And what other unknown factors should I be considering here?
     -------------
      
      The MOST IMPORTANT factor I want to know: 
      Have I been directed to the right place to ask this type of
      question?
       
       IF NOT: 
       Could you - the great people of misc.writing - please direct me
       to the right place on the net to ask?  
	
	Thanks in advance!
	-Elana

elana@agora.rain.com

 



Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman)
Subject: Re: ScriptTex
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 22:44:48 GMT

The recent list says it's available via anonymous ftp from ymir.claremont.edu.

-- 
--Mike Coleman (coleman@cs.ucla.edu), Lord High Executioner of Anhedonia-----
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Semantics of "to be"
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:28:41 GMT

In article <16047@mindlink.bc.ca> Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes:
>"There was a cat on the table"
>
>vs.
>
>"The cat sprawled on the table."
>
>Notice that the first sentence is passive and the second, active.  "Was" is
>an element in many passive constructions.  For that reason alone, hunting and
>rewriting is a good idea.  (P.S. could I write this paragraph without using
>"is?" :) )

Could you write this without "is"?  How about:

   Notice that the sentence now uses an active rather than a passive
   voice.  Many passive constructions use "was".  For that reason
   alone, hunting and rewriting yields stronger sentences.

Done as a quick exercise only - there is still room for improvement
(uh, make that, these sentences could still be improved).

Now, the capital question - are my alternate versions really an
improvement as far as the reader is concerned?

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: ScriptTex is *the* best!!!
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:12:49 GMT
	<22472@venera.isi.edu> <92268.211618EAO102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: EAO102@psuvm.psu.edu's message of 25 Sep 92 01:16:18 GMT


In article <92268.211618EAO102@psuvm.psu.edu> EAO102@psuvm.psu.edu (Ernie Oporto) writes:

>In article <22472@venera.isi.edu>, jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) says:
>>
>>Free on any computer that has a free TeX, right?
>>
>>Frankly, I find TeX too computerish for my tastes.  I don't like to
>>look at format codes and commands in my text.
>>
>>I guess that's why I use a Mac. ;-)
>>
>>jas
>
>What exactly do you use on the Mac for scriptwriting?  I'm using
>MSWord 5.0a, but I have to do all the formatting by hand.
>

I use Word 5.  I also use Scriptor for the final formatting, but you
can get away with just Word if you need to.  Just write your styles
intelligently (and don't worry about dialog breaks!).

jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: online poetry 'zines
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:10:57 GMT

wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato) writes:
>Does anyone out there in net.land know of any online poetry magazines?  I have
>quite a bit of work on hand, and would like to get it out into the world.
>I would also like some criticism on it.

From "List of Active Newsgroups" in news.announce.newusers:

   rec.arts.poems          For the posting of poems.

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
From: Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: A Modest Proposal
Date: 2 Oct 92 23:43:53 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

(Jonathan Swift, author of _Gulliver's Travels_, once wrote a satirical piece
called "A Modest Proposal".  At the time, the British Isles was experiencing
population explosion and famine concurrent with the social upheavals of the
industrial revolution.  The richer classes were especially concerned that
the state of affairs would threaten their own wellbeing.  He suggested the
rich might solve the problem by buying excess babies from the poor and eating
them.)



ZORBA THE GEEK quotes me and comments:

[[[
>seems to me that instead of eliminating "To Be" we might add new variations
>which give grades of exclusivity.
>
>
>"To Be" -- 'to have the attribute of'
>"To Ba" -- 'attributed to the set of'
>"To Bu" -- 'to exist in the state of'
>
>--
>Alan Barclay
>

Are you serious or is this some kind of joke? How long do you think it will
take before 'they' add these words to the spell checking dictionaries?
]]]

I guess I didn't grin hard enough; it was just A Modest Proposal.

The English language is a mess of pragmatic solutions to the demands of
communication.  Every decade brings some new habit or fad of speech which
slurs the old rules and leads to a need for new ones.  Every writer has
the challenge of learning the accepted rules of communication, then juggling
these with the current wave of change and using a collage of the two to
get his point across.  This is one of the reasons writing is an art.

I agree that English has gaps of imprecision and fuzziness.  But I
believe that the dynamics of language will provide patches when they become
necessary (q.v. the current androngynization of pronouns, etc).  I feel this
discussion of semantics of "To Be" is a little trivial, and perhaps silly
--though I admit it is an interesting intellectual excersize.

--
Alan Barclay


alan_barclay@mindlink.bc.ca
From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Screenwriter's Product
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:45:27
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
	<1992Sep25.221406.25801@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<22491@venera.isi.edu>
	<1992Sep29.180836.10282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<22519@venera.isi.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sartre.caisr.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: jas@ISI.EDU's message of 30 Sep 92 20:55:47 GMT

In article <22519@venera.isi.edu> jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes:
>In article <1992Sep29.180836.10282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ren@Turing.ORG (Karen Prestemon) writes:
>>In article <22491@venera.isi.edu> jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes:
>>>Ouch!  Heh.  A little bitter, eh?

>>Bitter, no. Realistic, yes.

>>I lament the death of artistic integrity.  If that makes me appear bitter,
>>then I am a bitter woman!  *sob*

>I have to chuckle at the thought of the phrase "artistic integrity"
>mentioned in the context of Hollywood.  It is truly show business, not
>show art.

I'm curious, have you seen _The_Player_?  If so, how accurate did you
think it was?

"I know what you are -- you're a pragmatic anarchist."

				-- The Player

--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: any screenwriters out
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:56:51 GMT
Distribution: misc
Organization: USC-ISI
In-reply-to: glenn.devlin@canrem.com's message of 26 Sep 92 01:24:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.2168.2944@dosgate> glenn.devlin@canrem.com (glenn devlin) writes:

>JS>We wrote one of the segments of the horror anthology feature "Grave
>JS>Images," which (I hope) is languisinh in distribution for home video.
>JS>The director really screwed our script on that one.
>
>JS>We've also had a script optioned by the Exec. Producer of John Hughes'
>JS>"Dennis the Menace," and have been commissioned to write a screenplay
>JS>for a producer of "Glengarry Glenn Ross." (sp?)
>
>JS>We're also pitching ideas around to the various minimajors an
>JS>independents (have a meeting a Neufeld-Rehme tomorrow), and are up for
>JS>some rewrite work (including Dolph Lundgren's next movie -- hooowl!)
>
>Wow, Jeff!  I'm impressed to see that you've gone all the way
>with your talents. 

Thanks, but I'd hate to think that this is "all the way" for me. ;-)
With all due modesty, I feel like I've only just begun (both in my
career, and as a writer).

>I evny you for being able to meet and pitch. 

Don't.  It's a bloody, painful process.  I'd give anything to be able
to avoid it, but it's a necessary part of the biz at this point in my
fledgling career.


jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan             | Research Scientist et al.
jas@isi.edu (Internet)          | Information Sciences Institute
72511,402    (Compuserve)       | University of Southern California
Newsgroups: misc.writing