HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: More approach adventures
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:08:29 GMT
Reply-To: amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum)

Mark Cousins writes
>  Another few minutes goes by.  "You're 2 miles from SEAPO, cleared
>  VOR-6 approach to Napa County."  What?  That plate's on the floor!
>  I question him, mentioning that the ATIS said that the LOC 36
>  approach was in use.  He said that no it isn't.  Great.

This is why I pull ALL the plates for my destination (and alternate)
from my Jepp binder.  Makes this sort of thing nearly trivial.
--
Alan M. Marcum
NeXT Tech Support
amm@NeXT.COM
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: Re: What did you do to the rest of your shirt?
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 20:49:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

From article <1992Sep28.114107.387@rai.juice.or.jp>, by tetsuji@rai.juice.or.jp (Tetsuji Rai):
>>Could somebody clue me in on what's going on here?  Is this some  
>>bizarre flying ritual?  Never heard of it before.
>>
>    Maybe he made his first solo or something.    My instructor at that
> time in Hawaii(who used to be an airforce pilot) said that the ritual 
> in airforce for the first solo was throwing the student pilot into the pool!
> He also said that one student pilot had got his leg or arm broken when thrown
> into the pool and that he couldn't fly for a month!

Shouldn't it be the other way around?  I mean the poor guy finally made
it and he should be allowed to "let go" for the day.  Maybe he should be 
allowed to smack everybody on the head that day (or rob a bank), how 
about that...

Of course with that logic, then everyone on the base has to find out
who has gotten his solo *everyday*, and stay away from him.... 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Medication
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 18:03:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.233937.14817@den.mmc.com> zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin) writes:

>  Since then, bad head colds can
>cause a painful pressure build-up even when I stay on the ground unless
>I hit 'em hard with decongestants and antibiotics right away.

Just a small medical note here.  Head colds are caused by viruses.
Antibiotics are effective against bacterial infections, not viruses.
Taking antibiotics for routine head colds is not only expensive and
ineffectual, but risks selecting for resistant strains of bacteria
which could really do a job on one's sinuses.

Decongestants and fluids are a good idea, and the mainstays of head
cold therapy.  

Dan Masys, MD
masys@nlm.nih.gov

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: richieb@bony1.bony.com (Richard Bielak)
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Organization: multi-cellular
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 13:47:00 GMT

In article <23758@alice.att.com> ark@alice.UUCP () writes:
>In article <92266.215322VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>
>> I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
>> Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
>> IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.
>
>Hm... How about this one?
>
>If you get into strong turbulence, IFR, stay off the elevator
>and you won't get into a spin.  You can't spin if you don't stall.
>You can't stall if you don't haul back on the elevator.
>
>In the kind of turbulence we're talking about here, the throttle
>should do a fine job of altitude control.
>-- 

Most airplanes, will eventually go into a spiral when the pilot lets
go of the controls. This may take few minutes in calm air, but may
happen a bit faster in turbulence. Try it.

For a detailed explanation take a look in "Stick & Rudder".

Also remember, that in a graveyard spiral the airplane is not spinning
and it is not stalled.

...richie PP-ASEL




-- 
* Richie Bielak   (212)-815-3072   |                                          *
* Internet:       richieb@bony.com | Rule #1: Don't sweat the small stuff.    *
* Bang {uupsi,uunet}!bony1!richieb | Rule #2: It's all small stuff.           *
*    - Strictly my opinions -      |                                          *
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
From: mikec@tabasco.lcs.mit.edu (Mike Ciholas)
Subject: Re: What Constitutes "Cross Country"
Keywords: Cross Country,X-country,Legal
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:55:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.034158.24270@peck.com> geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck) writes:
>In article <BvM1KB.33J@access.digex.com> stephens@access.digex.com
>(John Stephens) asks about cross-country flight requirements:
[edited]
>> 1.  VFR/IFR flight to an airport 35 miles away, touch-and-go, return to
>>     home base.  Is this time loggable as X-country?
>You can log it as cross-country if you wish, but you can't count that
>cross-country time towards any advanced rating (possibly except the ATP).
>So I'd say don't log it as cross-country.  Simply, 35 < 50.

I disagree.  If the flight involved planning, weather, and navigation
then it is a cross country whether or not the airport of intended
landing is 49nm or 51nm from home base.  The FARs say you need to have
cross country experience of a particular distance, that is more than
50nm, not that all x-countries are greater than 50nm.

>> 2.  IFR flight to an airport 65 miles away, instrument approach, missed 
>>     approach, return to home base.  Is this time loggable as X-country?
>No.  You didn't land.

Again, I disagree.  You cannot count it as cross country experience
for a rating, but it is cross country experience if you did the
planning, briefing, and navigating suitable for a cross country.  I
have only one such experience, I flew from BED to nearly POU before
the weather became unfavorable.  I turned around and returned to BED.
This was a 250nm round trip.  Certainly you would believe me when I
say that this was every bit a cross country in the skills required for
navigation, weather judgement, and planning.  I logged it as such.  As
long as I don't claim this time as satisfying a rating, then I haven't
broken any FARs.  I would even claim that the experience of such a
flight is why the FARs require cross country time.

>You have to make physical contact with the runway.  Landing is a fairly
>explicit maneuver, and the word "landing" is what is used in the FARs.
>That's when the rubber meets the road, er, runway.
>						Geoff

Where does the FARs define cross country?  I agree that a flight with
a landing at an airport more than 50nm from point of departure is a
cross country in anyones book.  But my definition would be:

Cross Country: Any flight in which the point of intended landing is
not the point of departure and planning for the flight included
weather and navigation.

The "landing" part is not the crucial phase of the cross country.  The
planning is.

I guess my advice would be to use a consistent definition and to get
so much cross country time that it never is an issue.

Mike Ciholas
mikec@lcs.mit.edu

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: BRIAN.M.CARR@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Brian Carr    (HARPS)")
Subject: Hanscom Accident Last Week
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 05 Oct 92 08:57:12 EST

   I just heard who the pilot was,  one of my original CFI's!
He remembers getting up to about 50 feet and the rudder
cable broke. Stiches only. Lots on his face. His eye could of
been lost very easy. Everyone is amazed he got off so easy.
So is the crosswind factor still relevant? Only in so much as
after the cable broke it may have been controllable in a low
or no wind situation. What say you now? It's strange that
pilots assume "pilot error" first also.

Brian Carr
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Fall foliage, Mt Snow, condo rental
Keywords: faliage, condo rental
Date: 7 Oct 92 01:31:41 GMT
Distribution: usa

G'day,
 
If you are into looking at fall foliage, then you might want to
take a trip to Vermont this next weekend or two. We just returned
from Mt Snow. The foliage is quite beautiful but still not at it's
peak. I estimate that it will peak next weekend or the following
weekend.
 
If you'd like to make an overnighter of it, then we have a
condo at Mt. Snow that you can rent. The particulars are:
 
For Rent
 
Mt Snow condo located within the Mt Snow complex.
 
2 bedrooms 2 baths
(1 queen size, 2 twin size, 1 hide-a-bed)
Linens included
Living room/kitchen/dining area combined
 (tv, phone, stove, dishwasher, frig)
Fireplace (wood included)
Deck
Nice view of Mt Snow ski trails including the foliage
Indoor pool/hot tub/whirlpool bath in adjacent building
 (I haven't used these so you're on you own but they look fine)
 
FLY-IN
 
Mt Snow airport is 4-8 miles away
rental cars are available (call ahead 802-464 8481)
taxi's are also available
tie downs available
 
Airport designator -- 4V8 (Lat/Lon 42 55.6  72 51.9)
Runway 2650 x 75  01--19
elevation -- 1953 feet
een 109.4 302 degrees 26.6 nm
unicom -- 122.8 (but don't expect an answer)
windsock -- mid-field east side in front of the FBO building
            and a second one at the end of runway 01
fuel -- 100LL $2.16+-
landing fee -- $5 + $3/passenger
NDB -- permanently OTS (at least I've never seen it work)
 
NOTE: this is a VFR only airport, it lies at the base of Mt Snow.
      Don't attempt a landing unless you can see the airport.
      Expect gusty conditions on downwind and final for 01.
 
If you are interested, email/call me for rental procedures and 
a discount for rec.aviation `members'.
 
It's also available during ski season, there's a nice golf course/golf
school run by Mt Snow and they are also into mountain biking, etc.
 
Dave Rogers
817 Holly Dr. E. Rt. 10
Annapolis, Md 21401
410-757-5724
dfr@usna.navy.mil
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Insurance
Keywords: Insurance, Companies, Experience with
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:20:34 GMT
Distribution: usa

G'day
 
My insurance is up for renewal.
 
I currently have my insurance on the Bonanza with CIGNA.
 
I have a quote from SafeCo (thru Rollins Burdick Hunter)
that is about $100 less than renewing with CIGNA.
 
Anybody have any comments/erperience plus or minus on either
company?
 
Dave Rogers
dfr@usna.navy.mil
From: ron@topaz.bds.com (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: AOPA Town Meeting in DFW report (long)
Date: 26 Sep 1992 16:57:02 GMT
Organization: BDS Systems
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.bds.com

> Also, the TCA ceiling is way too high.  Boyer asks, "If Denver, the
> third busiest airport in the country, can make do with a TCA ceiling of
> 7500 msl, why does the TCA for San Diego, the 30th busiest, go to
> 10,500 msl?" 

We're in the same shape here in Washington.  It's simple to understand.
TCA's are flat topped.  If you look at the San Diego charts, you will
find that even though Lindbergh field may be down at sea level, there's
3000' elevation within the TCA boundry, and close to 7000' within the
30 mile radius.  Theres a similar problem here in DC with mountains
west of Dulles.  However, this doesn't expain why the TriArea TCA
(which is HUGE) the tops aren't down at 7000 east of IAD (the other
East Coast TCA's are at 7000).

-Ron
From: dunn@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Steve Dunn)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 17:46:15 GMT
Subject: PAO Airport Day
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

Geoff Peck's note on the Reid-Hillview Airport day (9/26) reminded me -
Palo Alto's 4th annual Airport Day is that Sunday (9/27).  It doesn't
sound as well organized in terms of seminars and discussions;  but the flyer
says things like: 
    Live entertainment with the Good Time Band
    Control Tower visits
    Antique, experimental, home built and special interest aircraft
    Free admission.

If you don't fly-in, take the Embarcadero-East exit from Hwy 101.



Just - F Y I


Steve
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Remote purchase?
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 12:02:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.022412.640@netcom.com> steve@icarus.net.netcom.com writes:
>I'm thinking of buying an airplane from an individual in
>Phoenix, Arizona which is about 650 miles from where I
>live (Oakland, CA). This means that a trip to see and
>touch it would cost a lot of time and money if I rent
>a plane to fly there.
>
>Is is common for one to buy a craft remotely, making the
>trip only to pick it up? I would get a Pre-purchase done
>by a shop near the plane, and use their third-party eye
>as a judge. I have tried out an equivilent plane based
>closer to where I live and am pleased.
Yeah, in the 3 that I have bought, all 3 were done remotely (i.e.
pre-purchase, etc.)-2 turned out ok, the third...well....after
a new top and radio stack (and lots of wax on the paint...)-
I just sold it for what I paid at the original purchase...:-|

Caveat emptor is operative here.  If you go through the larger
brokers (Van Bortel for Cessna or AMR Combs in Pontiac, MI, as
an example, I am not recommending them, just know of their policies and
practices...), many offer somewhat of a guarantee, will fly
the thing to your ramp for check-out, etc.  The point here is that
(and this is my experience - flamethrower safeties on, please...)
there seem to be lots of storefront brokers-I would deal with only 
the direct owner of a machine, or a well-known outfit before the 
fly-by-night people got my business.  

You're going to spend a lot (LOT!) of money purchasing, insuring,
maintaining, tieing down an airplane.  Investigate it closely-
and don't rule out the local fields for some great buys...

Bryan Boyle      |Opinions mine, not Exxon's
Senior Engineer  |Former owner Cherokee N7068W
ER&E Co.         |bdboyle@erenj.com

Xref: sparky rec.aviation:16391 rec.aviation.misc:25
From: spenny@sw.stratus.com (Steve Pennypacker)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Beginner needs advice...badly!
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:59:39 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <122140255@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, jle@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jer/ Eberhard) writes:
> >  I've never heard of anyone doing it in 40 hours.
> 
> Now you have!  Private Pilot, ASEL, Part 141, 37.2 hours.
> 
> Jer/ Eberhard, (SLASH), HAM = N0FZD     | Hewlett-Packard - MS99, 1UP10,15'East

What aviation experience did you have before starting on your private, if
any?  Any other unique circumstances, such as simpler regulations at the 
time?  I'm very curious, as this sounds pretty incredible.
-- 
     Steve Pennypacker		     PP-ASEL

     spenny@wiley.ts.stratus.com     Stephen_Pennypacker@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: "Steven Klos" <p00031@psilink.com>
Subject: Air Shows...
Organization: Open Software Associates
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:59:29 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:50:14 GMT
>FROM:   Mark T. Evert <Cessna@kn5f.jsc.nasa.gov>
>
>In article <1992Sep29.232521.4504@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
>stankus@d31mf2.Stanford.EDU (John J. Stankus) writes:
>> Does anyone know the dates for the Confederate Air Force show in Houston?
>
>Better get here quick.  It's this weekend!

For those who are interested, I called the Salinas Airport (on the left 
coast) and asked about their airshow this weekend.  Sounds like it 
should be pretty good...  Here are the details (at least what I can read 
of my chicken scratch):

Gates open at 8 AM and the show starts at 12PM.  Expected to go till 
4:30 or 5PM.

For those of you unfamiliar with the location of Salinas, it's on hwy 
101 about 90 miles south of San Fran (as the Grumman Flies).

The exhibits are as follows:

	Snowbirds         (canadian jet formation flying team)
	Some parachutists (didn't catch the name)
	A Stealth Flyby   (Hope I can see it :-)
	F14 showing off
	Eagles (didn't catch what they do, just caught the name)
	Shock wave jet track (your guess as good as mine)
	F18 showing off
	Wing walkers
	A U2 flyby
	Brent Willis
	Shawn Tucker

If you want to get more detailed information, you can call the Salinas 
air show office at (408) 754-1983.

Cheers,

SK
From: ritter@claude.ma30.bull.com (Roger Ritter)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: The things controllers know...
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:42:55 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.

gregk@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (gregory.p.kochanski) writes:

>They may know what we're doing, but not always where we're doing it.
>Back in July, I was flying up from NJ to Plymouth, New Hampshire (NH12),
>with a stop at Manchester, NH to avoid the thunderstorms.
>On departure from Manchester, the ground controller and one of the
>approach controllers asked me where NH12 was, despite the fact it was
>less than 50 miles away.  Of course, it *is* a 2000' grass runway
>in a mountain valley that supports 6 airplanes...

Not just the controllers, but the FSS people, too.  I called a few 
months back for a weather brief for a flight from Manchester to Plymouth.
The briefer started talking about fog on Cape Cod that should burn off
by the afternoon, even though I'd said Plymouth, New Hampshire.  It
turned out he'd just briefed someone for a flight to Plymouth, Mass.,
and just didn't hear me say NH.  Once we cleared that up, he couldn't
help much with specifics, since the nearest weather reporter is in 
Laconia, about 20 miles away and on a lake, to boot.  Fortunately,
weather overall was clear, and stayed that way for the flight.
-- 
Roger Ritter N1FZZ (R.Ritter@ma30.bull.com) PP-ASEL, AGI
1946 Luscombe 8A N71983 "Rocky"
Sheep do not so much fly as plummet!        NH CAP: Profile 49
From: venable@faculty.coe.wvu.wvnet.edu (Wallace Venable)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:55:21 GMT
Organization: WVU College of Engineering

In article <92266.215322VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
>Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
>IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.

	Jim Patton, the retired NASA general aviation spin test expert, said 
that the Cessna 150/152 can roll into an inverted spin if stalled without 
proper rudder control.  With rudder control, 150/152 stalls are a joke, 
compared with that REAL trainer, the Piper Tomahawk.
	SOME aircraft require rudder input to spin.  Some do not.  I'd pass 
on this advice.
From: ark@alice.att.com (Andrew Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 30 Sep 92 04:10:09 GMT
Reply-To: ark@alice.UUCP ()
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

In article <92266.215322VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

> I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
> Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
> IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.

Hm... How about this one?

If you get into strong turbulence, IFR, stay off the elevator
and you won't get into a spin.  You can't spin if you don't stall.
You can't stall if you don't haul back on the elevator.

In the kind of turbulence we're talking about here, the throttle
should do a fine job of altitude control.
-- 
				--Andrew Koenig
				  ark@europa.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Subject: Re: Trivia question - additional clarification
Reply-To: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Distribution: na
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:56:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.053630.17389@cbfsb.cb.att.com> fuhr@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (james.d.fuhr) writes:
>
>The pilot, being the rich person he/she is, decided to take his/her
>primary training in the Beech Bonanza A-36, an aircraft which
>she/he would likely own (probably without the benefit of insurance). 
>FAR 61.31.e requires that instruction in the type be received from 
>an authorized instructor and that the instructor certify that the
>pilot is competent to pilot such an aircraft. This would certainly
>be the case in completing the requirements for the ASEL in such
>an aircraft. There would really be no need for a high performance
>checkout in such a case (a very unusual case, indeed).
>
>*******************************************************************
>Dennis Fuhr, AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel, NJ. PP-ASEL  N6419M-C152
>*******************************************************************

Excellent, exactly the situation I had in mind.  Student pilots must
have an endorsement for solo in each make and model.  I will admit
that I have not submitted this question to the FAA, but I argue that
the solo endorsement meets the requirements of 61.31 if it is done
in a high-performance aircraft.  Thus, once rated, the high-performance
endorsement is implicitly derived from the solo endorsement.

My [free] advice to anyone in this situation, is to get the
high-performance endorsement in your logbook anyway.  The few lines
may help cover your assets when the time comes.

Kerry

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Reply-To: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:24:19 GMT

>>In article <92266.215322VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>
>I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
>Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
>IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.

[and Greg's disclaimer]

Careful, I believe the above is a false assertion.  Consider the
case of high power settings and high angles of attack.  You will have
considerable P-factor to contend with and omitting right rudder is
the same as adding left rudder.  A turn in the wrong direction can
certainly be a skidding turn and a possible spin entry.

I stick to my original assertion.  Proper use of rudder is the way
to go.

Kerry
From: VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 23 Sep 92 01:53:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: psuvm.92266.215322VPN1
Organization: Penn State University

I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.
I had never heard that, but it makes some prima facie sense.
     We wer taught to fly ATTITUDE-- forget the altitude,
forget the heading (if necessary); keep the wings level
and the nose on the horizon.  The altitude and ASI will
roam all over the place (both to some extent rendered
inaccurate by micro-changes in  atmospheric pressure found
in CB clouds.  Believe only your attitude gyro.  The more
outrageous your IAS, the less it is to be believed.
(Provided your gyro hasn't tumbled.  If it has, well, there's
always the needle-ball.)
      We weren't told to keep our feet off the rudder pedals,
but that sounds like good advice, and I thank Greg for posting
it.  It's a bit analogous to the rule, the airplane won't stall
at zero Gs:  the airplane won't spin at zero rudder.
From: greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:56:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: saltydog.greg.717872208
Organization: Data Parallel Systems, Inc

>In article <92266.215322VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu> VPN1@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>>I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
>>Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
>>IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.

Let's be a little more careful here.  I never "passed on" this advice
as my own personal gospel.  In the original article in which this
"technique" was mentioned, I was simply relating something that
a crusty old ATP had espoused to me.  The story, as I wrote it,
contained no warranty of applicability nor performance nor an endorsement
by yours truly.

It's all so absurd anyway.  Sheesh, I fly a 172 for chrissakes!  I'm not
even sure I know where the rudder is!

greg

--
Gregory Reed Travis				D  P  S  I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated   greg@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN			     greg@indiana.edu (For the others)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc