From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Is Jesus a prophet?
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:09:05 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Dec16.143546.250@bnr.ca> ingrcfb@bnr.ca (Charles Board) writes:
>In article <78397@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>|> In article <rana.724406667@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana) writes:
>|> |rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>|> |>In article <rana.723431431@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana) writes:
>
>|> Could it be equally said that Jesus never said he was not God and so
>|> he is?  One can't argue very well from silence.
>|> 
>|> However, when Jesus said in response to the Jewish leaders questions
>|> that "before Abraham was I AM", the Jews recognized that he was claiming
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Is this an exact quote, Richard? Wasn't "I AM" the name of God in the OT? 
>Sounds like
>Jusus was saying "before Abraham was God"...and again making no claim either 
>way
>about himself. The tense would seem to confirm this reading - if he were 
>talking about
>himself "before Abraham was, I was" would be more what would be expected.

Here are is the passage in the NIV and KJV - see verse 58:

    John 8:53-59 (NIV)   Are you greater than our father Abraham? He 
    died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?" 
    {54} Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means 
    nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who 
    glorifies me. {55} Though you do not know him, I know him. If I 
    said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him 
    and keep his word. {56} Your father Abraham rejoiced at the 
    thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." {57} "You are 
    not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him,  "and you have 
    seen Abraham!" {58} "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, 
    "before Abraham was born, I am!" {59} At this, they picked up 
    stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from 
    the temple grounds. 

    John 8:53-59 (KJV)   Art thou greater than our father Abraham, 
    which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou 
    thyself? {54} Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is 
    nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that 
    he is your God: {55} Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: 
    and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto 
    you: but I know him, and keep his saying. {56} Your father 
    Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 
    {57} Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years 
    old, and hast thou seen Abraham? {58} Jesus said unto them, 
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 
    {59} Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid 
    himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of 
    them, and so passed by. 

>|> to be older than Abraham.
>|>  Also, Jesus also said that He was the 
>|> Son of God and the Jews were going to stone him for blasphemy, for they
>   ^^^^^^^^^^  
>  a common phrase at the time that did *not* indicate diety.

The verse describing this incident seems to say differently:

    John 5:18 (NIV)   For this reason the Jews tried all the harder 
    to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was 
    even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 

>|> recognized that he was claiming to be equal to God with his statment.
>Any evidence for the statement in the line above?

Yes, the Jews recognized this - see previous John 5:18 above.

>|> Jesus said he was the King of the Jesus.  Jesus our our Savior and God
>|> is our Savior.  God created the world and yet it says Jesus created it,
>|> too, for without Jesus nothing was created and it was created for him.
>|> 
>|> Doesn't it seem odd to you that the attributes give to Jesus are SO
>|> much like those associated with God? 
>
>Yes, but much less odd than the idea of God killing himself as a sacrifice
>to himself to atone for sins that he himself guaranteed would occur. 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could you elaborate on this?  What is this referring to?

>A Christian, who by definition believes in some extremely odd and improbable 
>things, 
>can not reasonably argue based on oddity or probability.

The statement "Doesn't it seem odd" refers to point that if Jesus was
not God, then these statements would be odd, but if He is God, then 
these attributes would be proper.  It was a rethorical question - I
presented common attributes of Jesus, which are those of God, and not
oddities.

>|> If we are to worship God alone, why do you think Jesus was worshipped 
>|> without rebuke?
>Maybe it served his purposes...then again he did rebuke them once for
>worshipping him, claiming that only "God is good"

He questioned the man - I think the possibility of rebuke in the referenced 
passages is up for discussion.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
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