From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:45:18 GMT

In <9207272031.AA23539@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com
(User - Don Gertler) writes:

>dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
>>I believe that the so-called "O-C-R" debate is ridiculous.  It is
>>completely impossible for Conservative or Reform Jews to win such a
>>debate, because those Orthodox who choose to flame are convinced that
>>they are right and that there's no room for argument.  Any arguing
>>must be done on their principles or it is rejected.

>Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?

Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.  That's
the difference.  Conservative and Reform allow for the possibility of
several "right" ways withing Judaism.

>And, of course, the Orthodox always win the argument?  Then why aren't
>you Orthodox?

I didn't say they always win.  I said that they are convinced that they
are right, and will only argue on their terms.  I am not Orthodox because
I refuse to accept some of the Orthodox axioms.  Therefore, I refuse to
accept any argument based on those axioms.

>I think this is a cop-out.  I will always try to put forth "my side"
>in this discussion.  Not to win, but because I do truly believe it to
>be correct.  I much prefer having someone else on the court, though.
>The fact that you spend the time to argue your case means that Judaism
>means a lot to you.

But listen - surely, from an Orthodox point of view, Reform has no
case to argue?  Surely anyone who says that the Torah is not the
direct word of G-d simply cannot be accomodated within Orthodox
belief.

>Implicit in Orthodoxy is a belief that non-observance of the halakha
>is wrong.  We can beat around the bush all we like in order to be
>Politically Correct, but it doesn't change the fundamental belief.
>Likewise, the Reform belief is that halakha is not binding, and is
>therefore unnecessary.  Yes, it's fine if you want to do it, but
>there is no requirement to observe.  That is saying that the Orthodox
>are wrong in their fundamental belief.

However, Reform does not reject Orthodoxy as a valid expression of Judaism.
Orthodoxy must by its very definition reject Reform as a valid expression
of Judaism.  There's a fundamental asymmetry here.

>>So.  The best thing (IMO) is to ignore flames against Reform or
>>Conservative movements, because you cannot argue with someone
>>convinced he know's G-d's viewpoint.  Instead, just keep doing what
>>you believe is just and right.  Don't let it get to you!  Most of the
>>Orthodox Jews I know are a lot more tolerant than the few
>>flame-throwers who stir up scj.

>Look.  I've been flamed many times on scj.  Sometimes rightly, sometimes
>wrongly (IMO).  I just keep coming back for more.  Partly because I enjoy
>it, partly because I'm just plain stupid.  I much prefer engaging in
>heated argument with someone I feel honestly believes what he/she is
>saying than constantly trying to second-guess my opponent's true feelings.
>You know mine.  Hit me with yours.

Read my paragraph :-)  I recommended ignoring the flames and sticking
with scj.  I would *never* advocate someone dropping scj because of hurt
feelings.  That just shows a certain amount of wimpishness and unwillingness
to stand up for your beliefs.  I doubt anyone could accuse me of dodging
flames.

When it comes down to it, I value the unity of Jews much more than any
particular branch of belief.  I'm here to stay.  But don't expect me
to defend either Orthodox's view of Halacha or Reform's discarding of
tradition.  That argument, I am still firmly convinced, will get us
nowhere on a forum like scj.  Those sorts of discussion are better
left for face-to-face meetings when a certain amount of decorum
(noticeably absent from UseNet - an interesting psychological study
could be made :-) ) prevails.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish