From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Qualifying Sources (was: Celtic)
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:26:37 GMT

[I cross-posted this message yesterday, but it didn't make it 
to alt.pagan. I'm trying again. I hope there won't be a double-posting.
Thorfinn]

>From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
>The basic cosmology
>is derived from Celtic culture, though through such filters as Graves.
>The duo-theism is not historically accurate, but the various figures used 
>to create the Wiccan Lady and Lord were mostly Celtic.  
>What English folk elements are you pointing at? 

I'm glad you agree that Graves' *White Goddess* is not historically
accurate. It should be interpreted as a fantasy novel and nothing more.
If a pagan religion wants to claim historical accuracy, then 
*The White Goddess* should not be part of its foundation.

In Germanic religion, there is a Lady (ON Freyja) and Lord (ON Freyr)
among the Vanic cults. They represent prosperity, well-being, fertility,
love, sex, and more. I'll let one more knowledgeable in Anglo-Saxon lore
discuss their representations in England. Do the Celts have 
a "Lady" and "Lord"? If so, then it shows a greater similarity between
the Celtic and Germanic peoples than some people are willing to concede.
In what sources does one find Cernunnos referred to as "Lord" and where,
in the sources, does it say that Cernunnos dies and is reborn every year?
Which Celtic goddess is the "Lady"? Again, what is the source?

Does one believe everything one reads? I hope not. How does one discern
the authenticity of a source? Edred Thorsson has come up with an 
objective analysis for source texts which gives a factual order of 
precedence. In any objective analysis, add the grain of salt factor.

1) Internal Contemporary Texts
      Perhaps the Old Irish Sagas and Myths recorded by the Irish
      Christian monks soon after the conversion. The X-ian factor
      may be a problem, but these are the closest writings to the
      people and the culture.

2) External Contemporary Texts
      What did the Greek and Roman historians along with Caesar have
      to say about the Celts? Were there political alterations or
      biases which would affect the texts?

3) Archaeological Evidence
      What "images" are left on which one might speculate? 
      To quote Thorsson, 
         "If a statue of an otherwise unknown god or goddess is dug up
         somewhere, and it can not be identified with some figure from
         the local mythology as recorded in texts, what are we left with?
         All that remains to us is some pretty wild speculation based on
         nothing but an "image". "

4) Internal Surviving "Texts" (e.g. Folklore)

5) Secondary Texts (Scholarly Works)
      a) Autochthonous
            Treats a given tradition from within itself.
      b) Comparative
            Tries to compare one system to another thereby illuminating
            further the more obscure of the two.

I would have to add that the quality of scholarship should determine
how much weight should be given to the text. The reader should ask
whether the author has a political agenda. If so, how much does this
invalidate the work? What value does one ascribe to the author's 
references? And so forth...

The very use of the word "witch" or "wicca" shows an English connection.

witch - n [ME "wicche", fr. OE "wicca", masc., wizard & "wicce", fem., witch;
akin to MHG "wicken" to bewitch, OE "wigle" divination, 
OHG "w(long i)h" holy - more at VICTIM]

There is another word which is Germanic in origin:

weird - n [ME "wird", "werd", fr. OE "wyrd": akin to ON "urthr" fate. 
OE "weorthan" to become---more at WORTH]

>Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

Wyrd Dreams Be With You!
Thorfinn
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The use of history as therapy means
the corruption of history as history.
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