From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Morality and Xtian bashing
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:21:30 GMT
Reply-To: wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 00bd5619b733c1bf906f5ab138fb8af7

In article <brp3eq.c8g@wang.com> smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:
>
>There is a foolish and tiresome theme in alt.pagan, which states that
>Christianity always propogates at sword point. It hasn't been true for some
>centuries, and during the times it did occur, I am unconvinced that what was
>propogated was Christianity. In the main, most people become Christians because
>they choose to, either passivly (they get raised that way and never question
>it) or because they wish to (which is very much true in many parts of the
>world, in this decade and the last few - there is a lot of Christian growth in
>South America and, despite persecution, in Asia.) *You* might
>never consider adopting this religion, but that should not make you blind
>to the fact that millions willingly and joyfully have, and continue to.

	Well, my first impression of this particular analysis of the
christian bashing that occurs here from time to time is that you've
decided to redefine Christianity in a way that implies that the
Christians that force their religion on other folks isn't "true
christianity,"  which is the favorite way for the fundamentalist
conservakooks to exclude the groups and denominations that they don't
want to deal with either.

	As one of the folks around here who feels comfortable in dealing
with the labels of both "pagan" and "christian" (depending on the
context) I feel that it is important for both groups to squarely deal
with the existence of extremist views within the groups.

	The UUS-L (UU Mailing List) has been talking about
"fundamentalist UUism" and dealing quite nicely with the topic.  Both
with the historical evolution of the "fundamentalist" movement, and what
it has come to mean today.  [Briefly, the "back to the fundamentals" was
an ecumenical movement in the early 20th century, looking at the "basic"
elements that would allow folks to recognize that other denominations
were acceptable on the basis of holding these basic elements in common.
The current implications of "fundamentalist" do not, I think, need
re-hashing here.]

	The modern pagan/neo-pagan revival movement is also in a phase
of examining the fundamentals of the pagan religions, searching for a
set of core beliefs or principles that can be used to draw folks
together, rather than to differentiate and divide.

	I will certainly agree that the Christian folk aren't using guns
or swords to "bring salvation to the heathens" anymore.  However,
certain Christian groups are using legal and other means of pressure to
enforce their views of "morality" on others who don't care for the
baggage that they see in the traditional Christian theologies.

	As much as I would like to disavow any association with these
folks, (and I'll LOUDLY disavow any sympathy with their efforts!) by
accepting the label "Christian" (in any context) I also have to accept
that they are claiming to do these (distasteful and IMO immoral) actions
in behalf of the religion that I admit to sharing.

[Of course, by the time a "real" Christian gets through talking with me
to find out what I mean by using the label "Christian" for my personal
religion, they tell me I'm *not* Christian.  I usually agree with the
proviso that they insert the phrase "by their definition." :-)   ]

	In a similar way, accepting and using the label "pagan" for my
religion, is a radical statement.  I have to deal with the cultural
implications that the Christians have attached to the word.  In some
ways it is like the lesbians and gays taking back the word "queer" and
attempting to strip it of its cultural connotations and destructive
power by re-defining it in their own lives.

	As for the ongoing proselytizing that the Christians are still
carrying out, there is little indication that they are making much
inroads in terms of adding new Christians to the fold.  Many of the
claims are by groups that are considered "not quite reliable" and are in
fact reporting as "new Christians" folk that are simply moving from one
denomination to another. (E.g. many of the "new Christians" in one
particular missionary effort were folks who were Roman Catholic coming
to the Baptist mission because the catholic church had no constant
presence in the area, the RC priest came through about every three weeks
on his regular circuit.)

	Very little of this, of course, has much to do with alt.pagan,
and those who don't want to follow this are advised that I have yet left
it in alt.pagan in case someone wants to develop the pagan points.

				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
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