From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women-Only / Men-Only Groups
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:20:16 GMT

In article <93Jan24.223605edt.18524@zooid.guild.org> goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves) writes:

[deleted]

>Needless to say, my opinion is thus - If men-only organisations should
>be required to admit women (and I believe that they should), then
>women-only organisations should also be required to admit men.

Why do so many people persist in doing this tit-for-tat thing, as if men
are women ARE NOW completely equal, as if there are no differences that
exist between them that must be worked out?

WOMEN ARE MEN ARE NOT EQUAL, THAT IS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THIS
NEWSGROUP.  Men's clubs are also things like the Senate and the House of
Representatives, as well as every physics lab I've ever worked in.
Women's clubs are things like my coven, and the group I wanted to go on
a trip with (but ran out of the money for), and NOW, which used and
still uses it's lobbying power to get me things that I need and am tired
of pretty-please asking for.  

I've heard so many men in my classes scream bloody murder over the
Society for Women Engineers.  "Well, *I* couldn't make a Society for
MALE Engineers."  No, you already have them.  They are called IBM,
Rockwell, Northrup, Aerospace, Edison, et. al.  Women's groups are used
for a specific purpose, trying to find our feet in a world not designed
for us.  If there are men's only events that help men to find out what
they are despite all the negative junk they have to carry, why not?
But, just saying, "WELL THE WOMEN CAN HAVE ONE WHY CAN'T WE?" is the
kind of logic I'd expect a balked 4 year old to use.  We have some
problems quite specific to us to deal with, like sexual harassment aimed
perversely and ubiquitously at women, like *R*A*P*E* which no one wants
to consider that way, like having kids and then being expected to be the
perfect mom and the killer businesswoman, like getting rooked out of
salary because we are women, like hitting our heads on that ol' glass
ceiling.  We use our groups to confront problems like this and try to
overcome them.  If men wish to help, go ahead.  If you also have your own
problems, work on them.  But, I see no reason to admit men to a woman's
group solely for the purpose of admitting men when this will not advance
in any way the purpose to which the group was designed -- CONFRONTING THE
PROBLEMS WOMEN FACE AS A GROUP.  For a very long time, I persisted in
thinking that when my ideas were ignored in grad school until they were
reintroduced by a man that it was because there was something wrong with
ME.  The men were quite helpful: "What?  Oh, come ON.  You're dreaming.
That NEVER happens."  It was only when I began talking to other women
exclusively about this and reading books written by women that address
this that I found that I was NOT crazy and the probem existed.  These
women's groups have helped me to realize that there is a problem, much
less WHAT it is.  When women talk to men about this -- as has happened
bezillions of times on this newsgroup -- we have to act like petitioners
trying to convince them that a problem even EXISTS!  Please allow us to
get together and compare notes without having to have this enthroned
group of people telling us that we're imagining things and demanding
that we "prove" to them that we are pissed-off before we can get
anything done! 

It never fails me how many people - yes, mostly men, I'm sorry -- who
purport to be "for" women's rights also try so hard to undermine the
very mechanics by which those rights will be achieved.  NOW exists as a
women's group because we need the lobbying strength and past history has
proven to us that we just can't sit back and wait for the guys in charge
to give us what we need.  My coven exists as a women's only group
because as women, we have been told we are sinful and evil religiously
for generations and need to find a safe space by ourselves where we can
confront this and try to find out what we REALLY are.  Are you so
terrified of what we might be DOING ALONE that you aren't even going to
begrudge us one damned safe space for ourselves?  I'm not trying to
trivialize your position, but it sounds like this is the old "Just what
do women DO when they all go to the bathroom together?" question taken
to extremes.  When men get together and try to find out what they ARE,
just as women are trying to do, I have no problem with it.  When they
get together and run the world and exclude us from THAT -- I have a
problem.  
 
I'm sorry.  The women's groups ARE different, just as the NAACP is VERY
different from the KKK.  I can tell the difference between the lynchers
and the lynchees.  Black people HAVE been treated differently from white
people, and may need to get together to straighten out what they need
to; I will not begrudge them their safe space.  In the same vein, women
HAVE been treated differently from men, and pretending that these
differences don't exist will not help us to overcome them.  You don't
get past an obstacle in your path by pretending it doesn't exist.  And,
so often, when women get together with men, our concerns are overridden
into, "But, that's only one issue!"  "Let's not focus on specifics."
"We have to address the general issue of HUMAN liberation (as if you can
address something general like that without ultimately ending up talking
about particulars)."  "Let's talk about that later."  "Why are you
always bringing that up?"  Too often, ur concerns are put on the back
burner and left to rot there.  Too often "Why can't we work together?"
turns into "Why can't you just do it our way?"  

Now awaiting all the email about how I'm a man-hater . . .  
 
Regards,
Janis C.
 


-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments should be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.