HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  BITNET%"SLART-L@PSUVM.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 15:22:00 EDT
From:         RBSCOTT@CUTCV2.BITNET
Subject:      RE: fl

I think that one reason Kansas University does such a good job
of training students from many different departments in the use
of foreign languages is that there are lots of opportunities to
participate in overseas exchanges for a semester, a summer, or
an academic year.  This motivates students to gain some proficiency
in the language they are studying prior to their study abroad, so
they can keep on track with their major area studies while overseas.
Also, there is a fairly large international student population at
K.U., which provides further opportunities and challenges to
utilize new language skills.

Slightly related to this issue is another phenomenon I am familiar
with.  For several years I taught in a small American ESL research
and design group at a private Japanese university.  When the head
of the language center at this school decided to have an international
convention on the campus, it sure stimulated a lot of interest in
English language learning as part of the build up to what turned out
to be a great event.  I suggest that instead of just trying to convince
science departments that their students need a foreign language, you
try to discover the connections which already exist in these various
"hard" disciplines among scientists from different cultures.  There
are bound to be, among the most active researchers and publishers
in the sciences at your institution, professors who have personal
experiences with travel abroad and the exchange of ideas with persons
from differenc
t cultures.  They might turn out to be your main
pieces of evidence in support of your assertion that foreign language
study is a valuable learning process for anyone in any discipline.
I suggest contacting the administration office or accounting office
of your institution Monday morning, and obtaining names and departments
of anyone who has gone overseas to deliver a paper or attend a conference.
Then contact these individuals, and try to get them involved in your
movement to save the language requirements.  Good luck.

Robb Scott/ rbscott@cutcv2/ teachers college columbia university
From: fbrooks@GARNET.ACNS.FSU.EDU (Frank B. Brooks)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Subject: Re: Teresa Pica
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:18:05 GMT
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              VanNaerssen" at Jan 26, 93 06:32:49 am

To all those who sent mailing information for Teri Pica, many thanks.
----------
Frank B. "Pete" Brooks
The Florida State University
e-mail: fbrooks@garnet.acns.fsu.edu
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:19:21 EST
From:         SELIGER@QCVAXA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: your mail

I think the Pavesi study was misrepresented. It basically showed that one
learns the language that he/she is exposed to. The classroom  learners in her
study developed forms that were closer to the standard norm and had fewer
fossilizations in areas such as repetition of the pronoun in the relative
clause.  There may be other problems with such studies as well since the
populations which they compare are not of the same socio-economic class
and educational background.  There was a study done back in the mid-60s
and which appeared , I believe, in Language Learning (Upshur or Briere?), was
done at the University of Hawaii. In that study, students who were found
to be at the same level of proficiency in ESL were randomly assigned
either to an intensive ESL program or "turned loose" on campus to attend
regular courses. They reconvened at the end of the semester and were tested
and guess what?...
Herb Seliger
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:35:33 EDT
From:         "Dr. Frank Moore" <CMS300@LWCVM1.LWC.EDU>
Subject:      BYU F-CAPE/G-CAPE/S-CAPE Placement Tests

I need some input from colleagues using the slart-l list. Is anyone
currently using the BYU F-CAPE/G-CAPE/S-CAPE computerized placement
tests? I have been askedto test all incoming Freshman next summer (about
700) and while perhaps not the best measure of language ability (there
is no aural/oral component) I have been asked to use the BYU tests (it
is self-correcting and tests reading, grammar, and vocabulary). The BYU
test comes with no ability coefficients. We are testing all first,
second third and fourth semester language students so that we can arrive
at these numbers. We are also talking to William and Mary as they are
doing the same thing. If anyone on this list has some information that
they could give us, I would be very grateful. While programs do differ,
it would be at the very least interesting to see what is going on out
there. Thanks in advance.
Frank Moore       CMS300 at LWCVM1.LWC.EDU
Modern Languages
Longwood
College
Farmville, VA 23909
(804) 395-2180
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:18:28 CST
From:         Andrew D Cohen-1 <adcohen@STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: fl
              93 9:43 am

>
>  Being the author of the chapter that Andrew Cohen referred to (in the volume
>Foreign Language Acquisition Research and the Classroom, edited by Barbara
>Freed), I feel that I have to respond to some of the messages that have
>come through SLART lately.
>  There is no doubt that a great many people have sat through years of "foreign
>  I agree that a lot of what goes on in some language departments in high
>schools or colleges in this country is somewhere between ludicrous and
>useless, but that absolutely does not imply that language teaching is useless
>and should be replaced by a semester abroad.
>In my opinion, it certainly is not a matter of classroom vs. overseas.
>
>Robert DeKeyser
>University of Pittsburgh
>rdk1@pittvms
>rdk1@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>
The reference is as follows (I just got the book back): Robert M. DeKeyser,
"Foreign language development during a semester abroad." In B.F. Freed
(ed.), Foreign Language Acquisition Research and the Classroom. Lexington,
MA: DC Heath, 1991, 104-119.

--
DR. ANDREW D. COHEN
ESL, 126 Klaeber Ct, U of Minnesota, 320 16th Ave SE, Mpls, MN 55455
Tel: 612-624-3806/Fax: 612-625-2312/NEW e-mail: adcohen@staff.tc.umn.edu
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:04:23 CST
From:         Andrew D Cohen-1 <adcohen@STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: fl
              93 1:01 pm

>
>On the issue of the value of trips/stays abroad, learners seem to vary a great
>deal in the value they get from it. Provided their stay is enjoyable, the
>motivational benefits speak for themselves. Also, communicative ability gets
>a boost. However, at higher levels of proficiency, a great many come back
>basically unchanged since they have merely become even better at operating with
>the current linguistic resources they had when they left. excepting some new
>vocabulary perhaps. This would argue for visits that were carefully
>supervised with preparation,post-tests and perhaps some interim contact with
>appropriate teachers. All of this suggests that, for the intermediate/advanced
>students, guaranteed benefits from foreign travel depend on a lot of
>planning and financial backing!
>M.Sh-Smith
>
I really like Mike's comments about overseas trips.  They actually
constitute a bit of a challenge to researchers.  The issue is: under what
circumstances to such trips really have the benefits we intuitively think they
might?  That's why I like studies which as questions like, "How much Spanish
did undergraduates really get from their junior year abroad in Spain?"
I believe there is such a study in the Freed vol. on SLA and FL research.
(My copy is loaned out at present so I couldn't check it.)

--
DR. ANDREW D. COHEN
ESL, 126 Klaeber Ct, U of Minnesota, 320 16th Ave SE, Mpls, MN 55455
Tel: 612-624-3806/Fax: 612-625-2312/NEW e-mail: adcohen@staff.tc.umn.edu
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Original_To:  BITNET%"SLART-L@PSUVM.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:17:00 EDT
From:         RBSCOTT@CUTCV2.BITNET
Subject:      Re: fl

IN THIS "CONTROVERSY" I COME DOWN ON THE SIDE OF THOSE
WHO ARGUE A TRIP OVERSEAS IS MORE WORTHWHILE THAN FOREIGN
LANGUAGE CLASSES.  I KNOW THIS IS HERETICAL ON THE SLART
NETWORK, BUT THEN AGAIN A LANGUAGE IS A LOT MORE THAN JUST
A LANGUAGE, AND IF A CHOICE NEEDS TO BE MADE I THINK YOU ARE
WISE TO OPT FOR TRAVEL OVER CLASSROOM EXPOSURE.  NOTHING LIKE
NATURAL MOTIVATION.  PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LEARNING EACH OTHERS
LANGUAGES FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.  THERE PROBABLY IS NOT MUCH
EVIDENCE THAT THE EXISTENCE OF FORMAL INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER
LEARNING WHICH TEACH LANGUAGES HAS HAD THAT MUCH IMPACT ON
THE ESSENTIAL PROCESS.  ALTHOUGH NOW I REALIZE I AM REALLY
WAY OUT ON A LIMB ON THIS ONE-- BUT AS I AM NOT SO FAR OFF
THE GROUND I'M NOT TOO WORRIED.

ROBB SCOTT/ RBSCOTT@CUTCV2/ TEACHERS COLLEGE
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:05:10 CST
From:         "Fred Davidson, DEIL, UIUC" <DAVIDSON@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      More thoughts: Net News and language teaching

[From Fred Davidson, davidson@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu]

Further to the recent discussion of Net News and teaching languages.

As an RPCV (Returned Peace Corps Volunteer) from Liberia, I am keen
to keep up with the tragic situation of its ongoing civil war.
Liberia just does not 'make it' into many U.S. papers or onto
U.S. broadcast news.  It *does* get into clari.news.fighting -- an
online NEWS group where feeds from many international news agencies
(AP, Reuters etc) are collected and displayed.  The best way I have
to keep up with the situation there is the NEWS.

Another aspect of NEWS reading online is to track topics that
are hard to find elsewhere -- as in this example above -- and
that would be of great interest to students.

BTW, if your local institution does not get the 'clari' newsgroups
(not all groups are available everyplace), please ask.  Clari is a
corporation that sells this service, and they have many other
very interesting groups, including one I refer to now and again:
a synopsis of the latest mail order prices on computer hardware,
including the used computer listings from the Boston Computer Exchange.

FD
From: mvnaerss@SAS.UPENN.EDU (Margaret VanNaerssen)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Subject: deitic reference
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:57:28 GMT
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Return-Path: <mvnaerss@sas.upenn.edu>
Posted-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 11:57:28 EST
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Elinor Ochs (UCLA) has done naturalist data collection on children and has
examined deitics.  Also Anne Dunlea (USC) has done research on the
acquisition of L1 by blind children, including, I believe, deitics. I
can't think of specific references right now, but I think the Journal of
Child Language would be one source, tho' you've  probably already checked
that out.
Margaret van Naerssen
University of Pennsylvania
mvnaerss@mail.sas.upenn.edu
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:57:26 EST
From:         Helene Neu <USERGEMR@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      language learning during overseas stays

I believe that the article that Andrew Cohen referred to is
Robert M. DeKeyser's "Foreign Language Development during a Semester Abroad"
in FOREIGN LANGUAGE ACQUISITION RESEARCH AND THE CLASSROOM (Barbara Freed,
ed.)  published by D.C. Heath (1991).

Helene Neu
Dept. of Romance Languages
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
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From: mvnaerss@SAS.UPENN.EDU (Margaret VanNaerssen)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Subject: Re: Teresa Pica
Date: 26 Jan 93 11:32:49 GMT
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Return-Path: <mvnaerss@sas.upenn.edu>
Posted-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 6:32:49 EST
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              Brooks" at Jan 25, 93 3:18 pm

The email address that Andrew gave you is correct. However, Tere does not
have her own account...it's an account into the Language in Education
Division. Faculty members do not automatically get their own accounts
there, but must pay personally for them.  The office administratro checks
the email periodically. Tere does not use the email very much personally.
So snail mail may be more direct. Or if you wish you could send an email
message then send me an alert that you've sent one thru and I'll give
Keith a call to let him know Tere has a message.
Margaret van Naerssen
U. of Pennsylvania
mvnaerss@mail.sas.upenn.edu
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Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 12:02:08 -0200
Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 12:02:08 -0200
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:02:08 -0200
From:         Leland McCleary <mccleary@CAT.CCE.USP.BR>
Subject:      Travel for L2

When I read the suggestion that travel abroad might be a viable alternative
to unmotivating, unproductive language classes, my first reaction was:
Wow, if only my university had sponsored me a semester in Germany instead of
the three years of failing German (no fault of my teachers), or a year in
Rome in exchange for the four years of mathematical Latin!  I think it
would have put me ten years ahead.  I know all the arguments about how
difficult it is to pick up a language in situ without prior training.  I
know how much I suffered the first six months in Brazil having arrived
(on my own, no school backing) without a word of Portuguese.  But I
suddenly understood what a foreign language was all about.  I could see
people living out their lives  in wonderful ways speaking this strange and
beautiful tongue as if it was all that existed.

I'm with you, Robb.

Leland.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:08:16 CST
Reply-To:     rhg1737@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Comments:     Resent-From: "Fred Davidson, DEIL,
              UIUC" <DAVIDSON@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>
Comments:     Originally-From: rhg1737@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was
              TESL-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU
From:         "Fred Davidson, DEIL, UIUC" <DAVIDSON@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      TOEFL SW

Forwarded to SLART-L from TESL-L.  Please reply to SLART-L or to
me (davidson@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu).  Thanks.

Fred Davidson
SLART-L mgr.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi, does anyone out there know of any software related to TOEFL
preparation? any help is highly appreciated.  Thank You.

Rosli Hassan
Div. of English as an International Language
U. of Illinois
(217-244-7257)
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:20:36 EST
From:         Helene Neu <USERGEMR@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      Content-based FL classes

Thanks to the many people who responded to my earlier request for information
about large lecture classes in 4th semester FL courses.  I'm working on the
report that I need to submit this week and will be able to incorporate the
gist of your advice and experiences.  What I still haven't found is a
reference in the published lit about the maximum number of students per
class; i.e. reports of success or failure that are largely conditional on
the number of students allowed to enroll in sheltered content courses.
For my own agenda, I'm particularly interested in knowing about efforts to
teach large numbers (25-100 students) that didn't work.  I'm also interested
in published references to the minimum level of proficiency needed for
sheltered courses ("intermediate" was what I found in articles by Swain
(in Freed 1991) and Brinton, Snow, and Wesche (1989) - but what level of
intermediate -- There's a big difference between intermediate low and
intermediate high).  Is intermediate low or intermediate mid really adequate
when the person conducting the content lecture is not a language teacher?
My concern, as I said before, is that we may be railroaded into teaching
large lecture classes at the 4th semester level (students have had 150 hrs.
of in-class instruction in French/Spanish and many are taking the course
pass-fail with their only motivation being to finish their language
requirement with the least possible effort) or at the 5th semester level
(usually only elected by motivated students, many of whom are planning
to major in the language).
    I'm under a bit of pressure to get this info and won't have much
time to do a lot of reading (also, my leg is in a cast, so getting to the
library is out of the question, especially with several inches of snow
on the ground and more to come!).  I'm presenting the first draft of the
report to the task force committee tomorrow afternoon and the final
report is due to the executive committee by Wednesday of next week.
Any help or info would be, again, much appreciated.

Helene Neu
Department of Romance Languages
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
(313) 747-2323 / 763-0403
FAX:  (313) 764-8163

P.S.:  Bill VanPatten-- Did you ever teach the content course you mentioned
to me (geography through Spanish) or any other to a large group (i.e. more
than 25 students)?

       Carol Klee-- Thanks very much for what you sent me.  It was very
helpful and similar to what is being discussed here at the College level.
I'll keep in contact with you about this whole thing.
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:07:00 CST
From:         Jeri.Dies@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject:      Re: your mail

Lydie, I certainly agree with your remarks...but I think it is really more
than those variables.  In my research I am looking at what I call the self-
regulatory aspect of language learning.  Success seems to depend on many
factors, but I believe the variables that learners themselves control are
quite predictive of achievement.  We, as language educators, many times do
not consider our students' needs...they are simply there to acquire language.
If we start with learners who are strategic in other kinds of learning, they
will probably be more successful as language learners.  If they do not develop
strategies and metacognitive knowledge, they will probably not persist and
perservere at language learning tasks that lead to proficiency.  We have to
help them in leveling the playing field to their advantage.
Jeri
jeri.dies@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu
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Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 12:03:31 -0200
Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 12:03:31 -0200
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:03:31 -0200
From:         Leland McCleary <mccleary@CAT.CCE.USP.BR>
Subject:      Equity of access...

On the other hand, Lloyd, I've met a lot of Brazilians in the most outrageous
of places who have never left Brazil and speak fluent, idiomatic English.
Sure they had their courses, some of them classic audiolingual mim-mem, but
what really did it for them was the contact they had with American students
abroad doing their semesters overseas.  The magic works both ways.  It's not
just a question of numbers of surrounding speakers.

I should mention that the reason I got on the bus and headed for Brazil was
that I had known some Brazilians in college, fell in love with them and fell
in love with their language.  I think the Brazilian government was paying
the bill.  I hope my teaching in a State University in some small way helps
to repay the personal debt I have to that investment.

Leland
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:02:40 CST
From:         Dan <S1.DXD@ISUMVS.BITNET>

Re. classroom vs. street language learning, Bob DeKeyser is, of
course, right: "...to suggest that fundamentally different learning
processes take place because of the mere difference in environment
is...completely misguided."  There's no longer much doubt that
context, or more accurately, the learner's interpretation of the
context, influences profoundly what one learns.  This is the essence
of the discourse domains hypothesis that Selinker and I have been
developing over the last few years.  We know so little yet about how
second langauges are learned that to suggest unequivocally that one
environment is "better" than others is indeed misguided.

Andrew Cohen's mention of the Buzz Palmer study reminds me of one by
Maria Pavesi (SSLA 8:38-55) where she compared English relative
clause use by Italian high school learners and Italian waiters who
learned their English at work in Edinburgh.  The range of structures
used was comparable in the two groups; the only advantage the
classroom learners had was that they used the structures at the
bottom of the NP accessibility hierarchy (i.e., the "rarer" ones)
more frequently, I think.

We need many many more studies of this nature.  Read the relevant
pages in Larsen-Freeman and Long's book on SLA research, and then go
do some...

Dan Douglas
Iowa State University
From: fbrooks@GARNET.ACNS.FSU.EDU (Frank B. Brooks)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slart-l
Subject: Re: Teresa Pica
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:22:09 GMT
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              93 12:40:31 pm

Does anyone out there in SLART-L land have an e-mail address for Teresa
Pica at the University of Pennsylvania?  If that is not available, does
anyone have a mailing address for her at Penn?  I thank you in advance.
----------
Frank B. "Pete" Brooks
The Florida State University
e-mail: fbrooks@garnet.acns.fsu.edu
----------
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:30:33 PST
From:         Phillip Thomason <THOMASON@PEPVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: fl

I am with you Robert DeKeyser!

Phil Thomason, Pepperdine University
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 13:34:46 -0700
From:         LCINKO@ARIZVMS.BITNET
Subject:      International French networks

This is a follow-up to a conversation that Jeri (UT, TX) and I are having.
Sorry, I did not keep your e-mail address and have to bother everyone.  Jeri,
there is another French Canadian network open to every Francophile.  It's
called COMMUNIK, it's open to everyone interested in communicating in French,
i.e. (they say on their brochure) professors, researchers, students, general
users.  I guess, the way to access this network is by contacting the U of
Quebec again at the following adress: LISTSERV@UQUEBEC  in your text write
SUB COMMUNIK [first name] [last name];  if it does not work try SUBSCRIBE
instead of SUB;  if again it does not work send the following text: INDEX RQSS
... or you may try GET INTRO PACKAGE RQSS.  Personally, I subscribed through
our main frame here in ARizona, but I'm sure you could do it by contacting the
U of Quebec directly.  --Lydie!...

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
     Lydie Meunier-Cinko
   lcinko@ccit.arizona.edu
    lcinko@arizvms.bitnet
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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