From: leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis)
Newsgroups: ba.general,misc.kids,misc.legal
Subject: Re: East Bay Regional Parks/dog restrictions
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:15:52 GMT
Followup-To: ba.general
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <1992Oct6.005207.23916@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
>In article <6998@transfer.stratus.com> leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct5.053355.26183@adobe.com>, pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>> ...
>>That is the point I was making earlier, it is your view and only a view
>>not the end all truth.  Fencing children is unacceptable ... WHY!  It's
>>done all the time.   ...
>
>  It isn't done "all the time", it is only done on occasion.  There
>is a dangerous time of 10 - 15 years in a child's life (perhaps
>age 2 to about age 15) in which one worries particularly about an
>attractive nuisance.  I don't consider it acceptable to keep children
>fenced in all that time.

I didn't say you had to fence them up everywhere.  Just keep them in
places that welcome children and are willing to take on the risk.

Not everyone wants to rearrange their lives to suit someone else's
children.  I'm not talking about your sister's child or something
of that nature.  I'm talking about the whole neighborhood's children
using your yard to play tag, cowboys and indians, or check out the
pool.  You have no means to control them, that is dependable, unlike
a relative's child.  It isn't worth the risk.

If one of them falls while running around at their normal full tilt
speed and breaks their arm, who are the parents going to look to for
medical costs.  Not everyone out there has medical insurance these
days.  Even if they don't want to involve you they may have to sue you
to pay the child's med bill.  I don't need that.

If you think children getting hurt while playing is so rare you must
have forgotten what goes on as a child.  I broke my arm riding a bike.
We were building little jumps out of scrap plywood and stones.  I hit
the jump off center and the board didn't stay put.  I landed on my arm
and crack!.  Two other neighbors broke arms and one lost an eye playing
with a bottle of Coke.  His parents sued Coke and won.  Another lost
two teeth playing hockey in a parking lot, lucky for the store and the
other parents the shooter at the time was his older brother.

We used a bump in front of a neighbor's house at first because it made
the jump easier to build.  The neighbor complained so I had to stop
using it.  Other's continued, their parents told the neighbor that he
couldn't control the space between the road and the sidewalk because it
was considered public right of way.  I remember this because my friends
had fun jumping and a couple of us had to sit and watch.

I thought my parents were mean, forcing me to stop playing with my
friends like that.  Looking back they were just teaching me to stay off
someone's property if they didn't want me there.  Some lessons take
time to fully set in.  At least my parents cared and taught me
something.  The other children learned to ignore their neighbor's
wishes.  What a great thing to teach them.  They may have made more
points with their children at the time, but later they pay for it.

When I got hurt it was in front of my house, I wasn't allowed to build
or jump in front of anyone's house who complained.  Several did, and at
the time I thought they were mean nasty old people.  Now I know why
they didn't want us jumping our bikes.

If the liability isn't bad enough you still have to listen to all the
noise.  As a child it all seems normal to scream all day long, but if
you're trying to relax, sleep, or listen to a few CDs children
screaming 25 ft away will drive a person nuts.

>>I view your children as a nuisance!  They aren't all that attractive
>>either, but I'm not talking about looks.  They run around carelessly,
>>break, trash, and trespass with no concern for what they're told. ...
>
>  This shows a seriously high level of hostility towards children.
>A 5 year old who wanders across a property line - is that what this
>hostility is all about?

No it is the 5 year old that walks into the garage and pulls a power
tool off the shelf by the cord and gets hurt.  The 7 year old that
hides under the car while playing hide and seek.  The 15 year old that
climbs my tall tree to settle a dare.  Or the 10 year old who is so
worried about being tagged as "it" that he fails to see a rain gutter
drain or rainbird and trips.  I have personally seen or done all of
these things.  In each case the property owner could have been sued for
the medical costs.  Again not everyone has medical coverage, and it
isn't cheap to visit the hospital.  Falling out of a tree can be a
long stay.

If you're a parent and your children play in another parent's yard
fine, you share the risk and the benefit.  Neighbors without children
just get risk and noise.  Some people don't mind the noise and will
change their lifestyle/yard/insurance to allow for the children.  I'm
not one of them.  What your children do in your yard is one thing, but
what they do to/in mine is another.  I my case I don't want them doing
anything in/to my yard, but I'm not going to use your yard either.

>> ...  If their children are so
>>damned important then why don't they care before something happens?
>
>  Right - if parents aren't perfect, then they *deserve* to have
>their children killed!

No, but I don't deserve to get screwed either. Not for someone and
something I didn't want, invite, or authorize to be there.  I don't get
any thrill out of a child getting hurt, but I can tell you one of the
first things I think of afterward is I'm glad they weren't in my yard.

>>Face it Phil, I'm not a public service to protect everyone else's child.
>
>  You appear to go further than that, and maintain that you may
>set up situations which would harm everyone else's child.  But society
>(by such wise policies as the attractive nuisance doctrine) holds
>you to a higher standard of behavior than you would like.

It isn't a dangerous situation if the child understands to stay out!
That isn't that hard to understand as a child IF your parents make it
clear.  I'll bet there were places in your parent's home you just
weren't allowed into.  My parent's bedroom was off-limits.  We didn't
like it, but it was just accepted.  If their parents don't have enough
spine to enforce a few rules their children will run wild and find a
way to get hurt.  You don't have to rule with the an iron fist, just
teach them a few golden rules.  One of them is repect.

The problem is that many parents these days have the same attitude
that my old neighbor's parents did, screw what the neighbor tells you
to do.  This teachs the children to do what ever they want.  They
make no effort to back you up until something bad happens.  Then they
try to back you into a corner to save their own skin.  If they had
just shown a little respect in the first place it wouldn't have
happened.

>>I don't want them around, I told them to stay out, I told their parents
>>that they weren't welcome, and that is as far as it goes.  Beyond that
>>it is their parents who are their legal responsibility.  I didn't build
>>a pool on public property, I didn't plant a tree in public property,
>>and I don't want my yard to become their playground.  
>
>  Fine, and there are legitimate ways for you to enforce this.  Hurting
>or killing the trespassing children just isn't allowable.

Who said anything about trying to hurt them?  I don't sit in a dark
corner with some kind of death ray gun waiting for them.  If I see them
I run them off, but the problem is that they view this as someone to
say yes to to escape, but after that ignore.  They will just say
whatever it takes and turn around when they think you aren't looking
and do it again.  To make it worse many parents will expect you to let
the neighborhood children play in your yard because it is safer than
many other places like the street.  Not many people have much of a yard
around here.  They, being parents, don't want to understand that other
people don't want any part of it.

While they may say, while you standing there, to stay out of the
neighbor's yard the tone they use shows something else.  They are
annoyed that you don't want their wonderful angels in your yard.
Children pick up on this and soon start ignoring or talking back to
you, in your own yard!

At this point the home owner is screwed.  They have no control over the
children at all.  Everytime you say something to their parents they just
get more annoyed with you.  I can only guess they are still thinking
about it like they were a child wanting to play somewhere.  I remember
that too, but I learned what my parents taught me about that.  I also
learned why you may not want someone else's children on your property.
YOU GET SCREWED ... I MEAN SUED.  It may never happen, but chances
are fairly high something will happen.

>>As usual my view is irrelevant because it involves his children.
>>His children are more important than anything else in the world. ...
>>Now he wants warm fuzzies at no cost just because he has children, ...
>
>  No, it is society's view that it is important to protect children
>and to avoid hurting/killing them.

The problem I have is that they volunteer me to do the protecting.
Either by ignoring your requests or by playing lip service to them
which isn't much different.  Now if I had children that were playing
in their yard it would be different, but that isn't the case.

The other problem is that this attitude of not being responsible
leads to court settlements that get way out of context.  People
who break into your home and get hurt, then sue and win!  Total BS.

Where do you draw the line?  It may all seem clear enough in your mind
now talking about your little angel, but it quickly gets messy.  What
if Johnny is 17 and he decides that while I'm on vacation to help
himself to my tools in the garage.  He and a friend are fixing up a car
and need those tools.  The problem is he gets hurt while sneaking
around in the garage in the dark.  Maybe he finds some ammo, gasoline,
matches, or hurts himself useing my table saw.  Then what?

Now everyone knows Johnny knew better than to be in there, but when
poor little Johnny and crying mom show up in court they just don't have
the heart to nail them.  No they know Johnny can't pay the bill and mom
is broke, so make the neighbor pay.  Don't laugh it happens.

Maybe 14 year old Johnny gets dared to climb the highest tree to prove
his manhood or get into some club.  I remember this kind of stuff.  The
problem is my house has the highest tree.  Johnny and friends all come
over, sneak over really, and Johnny falls.  Now Johnny knows he
shouldn't be there, but hell his parents always ignored what I wanted
so why shouldn't he?  He doesn't think he is going to fall, if he did
he wouldn't climb the tree, but he falls.  Guess who they come after?

>>If you really care you will keep them in places they belong.  The best
>>way to do this is teaching them right/wrong, to do what they are told,
>>and to respect another property.  If you don't you aren't being a
>>reasonable and responsible parent.  It may not be the child's fault,
>>but it sure isn't mine.  If you screw off raising your child the child
>>will pay the price.  Either it will get hurt, hurt someone else, or
>
>  Why do I get this picture of you enjoying your role as the Enforcer -
>anytime you find a small child who was wandered off, gotten lost,
>strayed over a property line when following a dog/cat/bird or just
>looking at a flower - that it is time for the Enforcer to hurt/kill
>this child?

Oh get real!  That's not what I'm talking about and you know it.

>>get caught doing something "fun" and spend a little time making license
>>plates.  You failed, not me and whether you like it or not they will
>>pay too.  So don't let them down.
>
>  Right!  If parents can't be perfect for every minute of the 10-15
>years, then it's time for the Enforcer!

No it's time for them to look for someone to pick up the tab.  They
just don't want to face the fact that they screwed up.  No one can be
perfect, but then nothing in life is guaranteed.  There are risks in
being a child or a parent.  The problem I have is you want your
neighbors to underwrite your attempt at perfect parenting.  That way
you can feel better about the risk.  You want to force it on them and
expect them to change their lifestyle and/or property for your
benefit.  If the neighbor feels the need fine, but it should be their
choice not yours.  It's their property and money paying for the whole
thing.  Then to add insult many will not even keep their children out
of your yard when asked.

>
>>THEY ARE ANIMALS!
>
>  Well, at least this is consistent.

Well they aren't plant, insect, or mineral.  You may have attached
magical properties to them in your mind, but I don't.  Children aren't
some kind of magical being, they learn and grow using the same basic
methods that all animals do.  If they are taught poorly by their
parents then they have a much higher chance of something negative
happening to them.  Even if their parents are perfect things can and do
happen.

Risk is part of living, children aren't exempt from this law of
nature.  When you have a child you assume some of its risks.  As the
child gets older it assumes more and more of them.  The better you
prepare your child for the real world, which isn't always fair or kind,
the better chance they have.

Taking this modern low confrontational approach to parenting doen't
always teach them a clear set of real world values.  It maybe easier to
just let your child do whatever it wants at first, but later this lack
of will power/spine will come back to haunt you and your child.