From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Greek Macedonian writes about "Macedonia".
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:41:18 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Sep4.100225.24841@cs.ruu.nl> naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:
>
>In <6001@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>>In article <9224720.5429@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>> 
>>>   Firstly, Macedonians are not: Greek, Bulgarian, Serbia or
>>>Albanian. No, we are none of these things, we are simply Macedonians.
>>
>>True. Macedonians are Macedonians because they feel so. This is a matter of
>>national consciousness. However, there was no such ethnic group before WWI
>>and nobody from these years had a "Macedonian" national consciousness. You
>>and anybody else can find this for himself by opening ANY book (or
>>encyclopaedia) published before 1920. Quite an easy task. In case your

[deleted]

>>consciousness and they have the right to do so. However, NO SUCH
>>NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS (i.e. Macedonian) EXISTED 70 years ago.
>
>You are right, there was NO SUCH NATIONAL CONSIOUSNESS 70 years ago,

Goce, this is very important point. And because NO SUCH NATIONAL
CONSCIOUSNESS existed, it's clear that Miladinovi Brothers, Gligor
Purlichev, and many, many others, didn't feel to belong to a Macedonian
nation. The same is valid for Goce Delchev, Yane Sandanski, Dame Gruev, etc,
etc. 

>                                                                     but
>let me tell you something about what my grand father and grand grand parents
>have told me about the peoples (nations) in Macedonia before the WWI.
>When I've asked my grand father who have lived in Macedonia before the
>WWI he's said: "Risyani i Turci" ie. "Christians and Turks". They (here
>I mean all of the people not just my relatives) have made no strong
>differentiation at the first place.

Let me tell you that this was common for the Ottoman Empire until the 19th
century. If you read books from/for that time, you will find that there
were no nations - people were "classified" according to religious groups only.

>                                          When I've further asked what he's
>meant by this two words he's said: "Turci ne se samo Turcite, tuku
>i Torbeshite i Arnautite" ie. "Turks are not just the Turks but also
>Torbeshs (ie. Macedonian Muslims today) and Arnauts (ie. Albanians
>today)". As you could see, they have called all of the muslims simply
>Turks. And when I've asked who were the Christians, he's said:
>"Bugarite, Grcite i nie Makjedoncite, a gore na sever i Srbite a ima i
>drugi" ie. "Bulgars, Greeks and we MACEDONIANS, and to the North the
>Serbs and there are also others".

Look, you can open many Bulgarians books and documents from these years and you
will find lot of "Macedonians" !!! (that all they were Greek is pure
fantasy). But when the subject comes to their national consciousness,
they described themselves as Bulgarians. And let us be clear - this was the
way people thought at that time. "Macedonian" is still amazingly popular in
Bulgaria and one often says "Macedonian" and not "Bulgarian", or one may
say "Oh, yes - he is Macedonian"  despite that no one doubts the national
consciousness. I've seen many times "differences" between "Macedonians" and
"Bulgarians", but it has been used to describe matters other than national
consciousness !!! And don't forget that those who felt Macedonian
Bulgarians were fighting for INDEPENDENT Macedonia !!! They were not (at
least - the majority) fighting for a union with Bulgaria !!! If there are
opinions that some of the Macedonian Slavs didn't feel Bulgarians (or just
didn't feel belonging to ANY nation) before the end of the 19th century, so
far I've found no doubt (and questioning) that the 1903 uprising is
anything else but Bulgarian in it's character. Why this was so and details
on it is a matter of a longer posting.

>I doubt you could find this in any book (however it is possible) and

You will be amazed from the descriptions of travelers who LIVED for months
in those lands and spoke with thousands of peasants from all over
Macedonia. Just read it for yourself. And let me remind you - still many
Bulgarians call themselves TRUE Macedonians, and they love (deeply and
passionately) Macedonia. However, from a national point of view - they are
still Bulgarians.

>I can tell you something else: in some villages even 20 years ago
>you could here what I wrote above ie. people have made just 
>difference between christians and muslims, at the first place,
>and then yet the Jews.

I think that the most important institutions were the schools and the churches.
They used to bring the feeling of national consciousness in the people and they
still do. If you were not educated in a Macedonian school, but in a
Bulgarian one, there is almost no doubt that you would have felt Bulgarian.
The general and genuine acceptance of Bulgarian schools and churches in
Macedonia at the end of last century (and after 1870), made people's minds
Bulgarian. Later, the Serbs reversed that policy and CHNAGED the national
consciousness of the people. The Bulgarian state committed many grave
mistakes for allowing this to happen - the list starts with Stamboliisky
and goes to Dimitrov. So - it became irreversible. But this is irrelevant
at present. You feel Macedonian, hence - you are Macedonian. But just speak
to Macedonians in Bulgaria and you will find for yourself what they think.

>One difference is in the name of the Macedonians, 70 years ago they
>have called themselves (I'll try to write the pronounciation in the
>style of the English) "Mackjedontsi" and we say "Mackedontsi",
>and nothing more is changed.

See above. You can think for a point in your favour if you consider the
movement for independent Macedonia. And of course, the popular "Macedonia
for the Macedonians". But unlike the Albanians, Armenians, Jews, etc,
Macedonians did not have their own national consciousness !!! Such didn't
existed for Americans, Australians, Brazilians, etc, etc ... And nowadays
these people feel such.

>  The old people in Macedonia today say
>also "Makjedonci" and the others (younger, eg. usually we who are
>born after 1945) say "Makedonci".

In Bulgaria "Makedonski" and "Makedonest" is still in common use and is
just like I've described it above.

> If can remember me good, I think
>I've told you that when my grany has served in the ex-ex-Yu army
>they haven't called him Serbian, or something like that, but
>MACEDONIAN (actually they have usually said him: "Where are you
>a little Macedonian"). And if you read some books from that period
>you could find "south Serbs", right?

Partly. Failing to persuade the Macedonian Bulgarians that they are Serbs,
the YU officials (i.e. Serbian) started calling them "Macedonians" in the
attempt to make them not feel Bulgarians. This is well documented. And
whether somebody likes it or not - it worked. Alas, there are still
Bulgarians and Bulgarian Macedonians who can't "digest" and realize that.

>>It may be you who never made an attempt to find what Macedonians in
>>other countries feel for themselves. Even more - there is a very interesting
>>question to be asked: 'What happened with all Bulgarians (according
>>to the International treaties, from Macedonia, after 1913? It's the place
>>to mention that in no treaty one can find an ethnic "Macedonian" neither
>>can one find such entry in any census before WWI. Are they all killed?
>>Vanished? Why they disappeared? What happened to the Bulgarian churches
>>and schools, which existed from the time of the Ottoman Empire in the land
>>of Macedonia? Have you ever read a declaration from a Macedonian
>>organization about the human rights violations abroad during the years
>>before WWII? The obvious answer to this question is NO, but it's unclear WHY.
>
>What happened to all Bulgarians after 1913? The Bulgarians (most of them)
>have left Macedonia. 

Wrong. Many remained (at that time there were still no people with
Macedonian national consciousness). Don't forget that we talk
about Bulgarian Macedonians. You can see for yourself in books, describing
population exchanges after 1913.

> Maybe, but I do not claim this, because
>I cannot give you a "proof" (ie. a book, or something else), but
>instead I'll tell you this ...

Goce, personal stories are of no use in such dialogues. I've mentioned once
and I'll tell you again - I can write and write personal stories I've heard
from Macedonians in Bulgaria. It's useless. I've tried to determine what
people wrote on the matter as travelers in the region, i.e. as "outsiders". I
know so many personal stories, songs and other emotional "proofs" that I
need no more. I'm interested to hear what you say, but if I tell you the
oposite, is this going to lead to some sort of understanding?

>Being based on stories from outsiders who have never been at a place
>you are talking about, 

You must be joking. All eldery Bulgarian Macedonians I've spoken to, come from
Vardar and Aegean Macedonia. They were as much "insiders" as your grandfather
was. As for personal experience - it's likely that you've never spoke to
Macedonian from Pirin Macedonia ... :-( 

>or on stories written by somebody with
>some political ideas with certain purposses, you couldn't know the truth.

How can you possibly know (and dare to say) who knows the truth and who
doesn't? See - Greek netters also claim the "truth" that Macedonia was
always Greek ... I've also read the Serbian "truth". And all those "truths"
differ :-(. If you try to find the truth - go to the library and read as
much as you can. And very f`carefully !!!

>But we should know that the truth is very, very painfull.

It is, indeed. It may be better, to think for the future and not for the
pains.

>And now, I'm asking myself, what happened to all Macedonians after 1912?

Easy answers, provided you can check the books. In general, after 1912
untill WWI, nothing important, apart from a lot of massacres (i.e. of
Bulgarian Macedonians). Do remember that at that time there were no
Macedonian Macedonians (i.e. such with separate national consciousness).

>>There was no such ethnic group in 1925. Check it for yourself and then
>>think what and how to write articles.
>
>And read above what have my grands told me who they were. What do you think,
>if they have told me that I was something else, would I accept this what
>I today am?

It's not a unique case to change the national identity of people. And do
remember that I've never argued that you are not a Macedonian. I never told
you that you are Bulgarian, or Greek, or Serb !!!

> And I'm not the one, there are hundreds of thousands like me.

I know. As far as I remember the numbers were in millions.

>Regards,
>Goce.

Likewise

Luben


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"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
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