From: liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Territory of Ancient China : Tang Dynasty
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:10:12 GMT
Organization: New York University

liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:

>In article <liqiang.716060575@kramden> liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li) writes:
>>lix@yangtze.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
>>
>>>In article <92Sep9.100531edt.128@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Sep9.022715.24826@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>><>In article <95545@bu.edu> lix@xanadu.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
>>><(deleted)
>>><>
>>><>Unfortunately (he did have good intentions, but...) the abolishment of Rou
>>><>Xin caused more deaths, according to what I read, since the punishment was
>>><>then changed to whipping, which often resulted in deaths.
>>
>>>Mr. Lu is right, but what I said is his awareness of human rights presented
>>>in his order. 
>>><>
>>><Liu Hen was a good emperor, but Han Dynasty's military was in a sad
>>><shape, china was still exhausted, Xiong Nu plunders the north at will,
>>><it was similar to the situation Li Shi Ming faced, but the Tang Dynasty
>>><managed to change from fending off the Tu Jue from 20 miles of its
>>><capital to wipe them out a couple of years later, with an exhausted
>>><country also.  You have to say that militarily Liu Hen or his son(Jin Di)
>>><was no comparison to Li Shi Ming, only until Liu Che(Wu Di) Han started
>>><to acquire the capibility of defending itself.  
>>
>>>Nah, Liu Che did too much more than defending. He even started war at his
>>>free will, and finally spent over all national reserves accumulated since
>>>Liu Hen. This is also exactly the pattern of QianLong to KangXi.
>>
>>><>>Similarly, KangXi is another surprise in Chinese history. No other
>>><>>emperors ever understood and taught his offsprings:
>>><>>
>>><>>Emperor is to manage the country,
>>><>>not the country to serve the emperor.
>>><
>>><Li Shi Ming was the first to speak the truth about the relation
>>><between the Emperor and his subjects:  Water can carry the ship,
>>><but it also can overturn the ship.  
>>
>>>This is exactly why KangXi is superior to TaiZong: In TaiZong's mind,
>>>people can be used, but may also present as a danger, if the emperor
>>>did not take care of them well enough. This is good, better than other
>>>emperors. However, the master-servant relation was reversed only in
>>>KangXi's couplets.
>>><>
>>><>Hmmm.  I am not sure the Liu Hen had any understanding of democracy, and
>>><>although he was an excellent emperior (IMO), he once almost executed the
>>><>entire family (the 3 Zu's) of a man accused of cutting a tree on the tomb of
>>><>his father, Liu Bon (Han Gou Zu).  Of course, everyone had their blemishes.
>>
>>>In any dynasty, cutting tree on emperors's tomb would be similarly punished:-(
>>>This was very severe crime at that time.
>>
>>><>Another emperor who ranks high on my list is Liu Shiu (Han Guang Wu Di).  His
>>><>personality showed a lot of kindness and non-forgetfulness of the good things
>>
>>>Yeah, I think GuangWu should be ranked about the same level of TaiZong, the
>>>first rate emperors, while Han Wen and KangXi are super-rate.
>>
>>>-- 
>>
>>All the emperors mentioned are emperors with achievements. Discussions
>>on comparisons among them are absurd and unproductive and also biased.
>>
>>- Li, Qiang

>Why not?  Why can we make comparsions about good emperors?  would you
>like to point out what other topics currently under heated debate
>are productive?  ST, TI, Tibet, Japan, which one is a productive topic?
>I thought this is supposed to be soc.culture.china.   

OK, do what you want.

- Li, Qiang
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan