HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansionism
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:46:53 GMT
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia

In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|> 
|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
|> 
|> 
|>    [In a speech to Mapai activists in Oct 1937:]  He divided the
|>    realization of "the historic aim of the Jewish state" into two stages.
|>    The first stage, which would last ten or fifteen years, he called
|>    "the period of building and laying foundations."  This would prepare
|>    the state for the second stage, "the period of expansion."  The goal
|>    of both stages was the "gathering in of the exiles in all of Palestine."
|>    And so "from the moment the state is established, it must calculate
|>    its actions with an eye towards this distant goal."  The concept of
|>    peace through strength thus added two new principles to Ben-Gurion's
|>    doctrine.  Unlike in the past, when he spoke of the division of the
|>    country along national lines, Ben-Gurion now aspired to achieve a
|>    "_Jewish_ Palestine."  And whereas in the past, he had spoken of
|>    "conquering" the land through cultivation of barren wasteland and
|>    feverish work, Ben-Gurion now assigned a role to armed force.
|>    The state in the making would be Jewish and expansionist.
|> 
|>    [S. Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs, Oxford University
|>                Press, 1985; pages 187-190.   Teveth gives references
|>                for all the quotations.]
|> 

Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:04:10 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <BxI3x4.86.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <Nov.9.18.41.32.1992.925@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>>gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>>
>>>My God!  Look what the cat dragged in!  MARWAN!  Glad to see you're still
>>>alive and posting absurdities. 
>>
>>Manu ... Long time no read... It is really funny that you even mention
>>the word "absurd" when all your postings (including this one) usually
>>smell stincky.
>>
>>>	Where do you go, Rutgers?  I think that says it all.
>>>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>>
>>Just where/what on earth is claremont ??!!!
>
>It figures...given your recent post on oil pricing.  Claremont is one of the
>premier schools in the country at which to study economics, policy, etc.
>
>If you're an engineer, you should have heard of Harvey Mudd, one of the Claremont
>Colleges (along w/ Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Scripps,....feel free to jump
>in, Geoff).
>

BTW, Pomona [Pitzer?] is an excellent liberal arts school, as has been pointed
out.

>>______________________________________________________________________________
>>                                                                             _
>>Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
>>                                          ||               | |               |
>>Better Known as ...                       ||    ()         | |               |
>>                                          ||           _   | |      .-     | |
>>Hadi el-gossah gossat hamdah ...          ||      \___/ \__/ |      (_|____/ |
>>Hamdah, el-rimsh elly yitehaddah ...      ||       |  \_/    |        |      |
>>galat mareedak ...                        ||  \___/      /   |   \___/    *  |
>>mareedak, lo tethbahnee be`eedak mareedak.||            /
>>===============================================================================
>
>
>-- 
>Anwar Mohammed <anwar+@cs.cmu.edu> Vox:(412) 268-3043 Fax:(412) 421-8661
>ASAP PhD SCS CMU. "You'll note that politicians no longer spend money,
>they invest it.  Don't worry about paying more to the [IRS].  You aren't
>being taxed; you're taking a plunge on a fly-by-night stock issue." - P.J.


-- 
Anwar Mohammed <anwar+@cs.cmu.edu> Vox:(412) 268-3043 Fax:(412) 421-8661
ASAP PhD SCS CMU. "You'll note that politicians no longer spend money,
they invest it.  Don't worry about paying more to the [IRS].  You aren't
being taxed; you're taking a plunge on a fly-by-night stock issue." - P.J.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: BACK TO IRAN? PROFESSIONALS FEEL WELCOME
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:43:36 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Nov4.194632.10610@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>reposted from soc.culture.iranian:
>> From New York Times Wednesday, November 4 page A13
>> Teheran, Iran Nov.3

>> announced recently.  "all Iranians enjoy equal status under the law as
>> long as they do not act against the Government and believe in the sanctity
>> of Islamic values."
[...]
>>   "Most expatriates have accepted the status of Iran as an Islamic state,"
>> said Ali Zahedi, 34 who sold his suburban home in San Francisco,
[...]

And those who don't like the idea of living under "Islamic values?"
Are they free to return? Do they get equal status?

Adam





Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gadi@cs.uiuc.edu (Gadi Friedman)
Subject: Re: Litani River
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 04:47:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.192501.15958@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:


   Now, after reviewing the report, I can confidently say that
   we soon will have proof of the Israeli water diversion.
   According to that report and a comprehensive book, which
   has extensive data on the Litani river flows, the waters of the Hasbani, 
   which is a tributary stream to the Litani in the Israeli controlled
   region, are currently being diverted to Israel.
   The data were taken by an Israeli commissioned  study done by
   Aaron Wolfe, an Israeli researcher, and his data will be available 
   in a book soon to be released called _The Litani_ written by
   John Collors.  I am not sure when the book will be
   released, it is still in draft status.

When I spoke with Aaron Wolfe, about 1 1/2 years go, he said he
had no evidence that Israel was taking water from the Litani.  He
mentioned something about there being a Dam on the river above the
point where the Israeli control began.  He may have uncovered new
information since than.


   Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Gadi
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 10 Nov 1992 00:42:45 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 18155@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
[...]

>Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.

I don't have a clear idea of this.  I think it varied during his life,
but I don't know of any instance where he called for an empire from the
Nile to the Euphrates as a few Zionists did.  Certainly he wanted all
of what was called Palestine in 1937 (now Israel+WB+Gaza) but probably
also Lebanon up to the Litani, the Golan, and parts of Jordan.

>A.Faris

Brendan.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Another Missed Opportunity
Date: 12 Nov 1992 01:50:37 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1832@spam.ua.oz, jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.215138.18327@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>>In article <1d9tttINNr8n@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>># >    Going to another David Palmer rally?

>># Have you ever considered that maybe I _am_ David Palmer?

>>       Would not surprise me one bit.

>So Brendan killed Laura Palmer!! I always suspected there was something
>strange about him. So why the plastic Brendan?

The startling answer to this question is now available for the very
first time.  Just send a self-addressed envelope, plus $100 to cover
postage and handling.

>Joseph

Brendan.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Ohm Jihad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Assad dead?
Date: 8 Nov 92 04:19:59 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <5405@daily-planet.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>
>I heard a strange piece of "news" this morning from unreliable
>sources; That Assad is dead two to four days ago?
>Anybody heard this rumor..

These rumors seem to occur often ... unfortunately, they are
usually false.

>I hope it is not just some wishful thinking by the syrians (from
>where I got this information) This kind of thing happened to Brejniev
>many times before the real thing eventually happened.

Wishful thinking by a lot more than just the Syrians.  Insha'Allah
very, very soon.

>I heard The next in line is even worse than Assad anyway.

You mean like Rafik and Co.?

Yeah, in the case of Assad's family, it was just more than one
bad apple that spoiled the whole barrel.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dpryce@llewella.uchicago.edu (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Another Missed Opportunity
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:11:02 GMT

Brendan McKay writes
> In article 18327@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David  
Makowsky) writes:
>>># You are only correct up to 1944.  The Irgun "Revolt" against the  
>>>#British
>># began considerably before the war ended.
> 
>>	But not while the end of the war was in doubt.
> 
> The "Revolt" was declared on 1 Feb 1944.  That was about four months 
> before D-day, and before the outcome of the war on the eastern front
> was clear.  I doubt if anyone will buy your argument.
> 

Actually, the war's outcome was not really in doubt by that point.  The  
U.S. had been pushing the Japanese back in the East, and the last German  
offensives in Russia had stalled.  They had been driven out of Africa,  
were being forced back in Italy, and were just waiting for the next hammer  
blow to fall.

> Brendan.

D. Pryce
"A battle is often over in the first five minutes.  All after that is  
blood."
			- von Moltke

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul)
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:17:21 GMT

naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:

>Thanks God they failed. 

   I thought only Arabs were illiterate and incompetent. How wrong!


** mish i.hna bi'Olo ^Na duwal mit.kaLfeh?
   iza a.da ^ala shwaYit iTa.kaLof iLi ^aNa, shO bidhon y'Olo ^aNa?
                                                       D. Lahham
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:43:29 GMT
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711

In article <1992Nov10.000421.17936@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <Nov.9.18.41.32.1992.925@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>>gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>>
>>>My God!  Look what the cat dragged in!  MARWAN!  Glad to see you're still
>>>alive and posting absurdities. 
>>
>>Manu ... Long time no read... It is really funny that you even mention
>>the word "absurd" when all your postings (including this one) usually
>>smell stincky.
>>
>>>	Where do you go, Rutgers?  I think that says it all.
>>>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>>
>>Just where/what on earth is claremont ??!!!
>
>Not to prolong this argument, because I think it's silly, but Claremont-
>McKenna college - which I assume is where Manu's posting from - is in
>Claremont, California, a suburb of Los Angeles.  The college is quite
>good - if you check USNWR's rankings it's consistently in the top 25 for
>small liberal arts colleges nationally.  I should know - I went to
>Occidental College, also in the LA area, and one of CMC's main
>competitors.  I was recruited by both CMC and Pomona - CMC's sister
>school - but decided on Oxy because of the financial situation.


	Actually, I don't go to either Claremont-McKenna or Pomona but
	to Harvey Mudd, the science school of the 5 colleges.  If anyone
	cares to look, you'll see that this school has been ranked the
	#1 engineering school in the US by US News and World Report.  
	However I made the orginal post to defend CMU which is a fine
	university.

	Geoff

>
>Eric
>
>
>-- 
>"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
>A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Subject: Bait al-Maqdis
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:49:17 GMT


I saw the following comment in a posting by Sandra Rayes.

   From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
   Subject: Re: Fair Swap

   In article <1992Sep17.213008.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu writes:
   >In article <1992Sep14.065554.16137@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

   Perhaps *I* made the mistake in saying the Palestinians referred to
   *themselves* as such so many years ago.  My mistake.  But no one
   can dispute that OTHERS didn't refer to them as such and they adopted
   the name.  Whatever.  Throughout much of documented Arabic history,
   the Arabs  of 1500 years ago called (and still do) Bait
   al-Maqdis (Palestine), spoke Arabic, and became Christians and
   Muslims.

I assume this term is etymologically derivative from Beit ha-Miqdash,
a Hebrew term for the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

   >	I can tell you that either. Question is how can we prove 
   >	it.

   Ask an Arab for his lineage and how far back he can go.  Then ask
   a Westerner.  Chances are the Arab can go much further.  

Unlikely and of no consequence anyway.

   >> Perhaps some of our Arab posters can elaborate on this. And comparing
   >> Palestinians to Jews is weak, since Jews are for the most part recent
   >> arrivees who are bringing a non-indigenous culture with them.

While it would have been preferable in many ways from an Arab
viewpoint for the Jews not to immigrate to Palestine, the comment that
Jews brought non-indigenous culture is mindless.  Arabic Islamic
culture is at least as much an imported invader culture which needs to
be supplanted.  

   Sandra.

   >+>Noamn

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 06:53:46 GMT

In article <Nov.10.20.49.02.1992.19520@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>>It figures...
>
>good you can "figure"...
>
>>If you're an engineer, you should have heard of Harvey Mudd, one of
>>the Claremont Colleges (along w/ Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Scripps,....
>>feel free to jump in, Geoff).
>
>Ok ... Ok ... I just did not know how prestegeous it is to be in the mud.


	How funny!  This is the first time that anyone has ever poked fun
	of Mudd in Harvey Mudd.  Hahaha, hohoho. But hey, anywhere is 
	better than Jersey,


	Geoff
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>                                                                             _
>Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
>                                          ||               | |               |
>Better Known as ...                       ||    ()         | |               |
>                                          ||           _   | |      .-     | |
>Hadi el-gossah gossat hamdah ...          ||      \___/ \__/ |      (_|____/ |
>Hamdah, el-rimsh elly yitehaddah ...      ||       |  \_/    |        |      |
>galat mareedak ...                        ||  \___/      /   |   \___/    *  |
>mareedak, lo tethbahnee be`eedak mareedak.||            /
>===============================================================================


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:59:06 GMT

eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

##Can someone supply more information about the case of Ramya (the
##size of the village - I remember 17 families), their current
##living conditions (rather poor as I recall) and the options
##offered to them?

#So, I think you mean as long as these people are few poor paesants, it is
#fine to take over their land. Danny... take a class in the Psychology of
#prejudice, I am sure it will help you.

No, I didn't say it was ok. I just wanted more information. And I
pointed out that such evictions were done to Jewish citizens also,
in the recent past. 

As to the rest of your poster: no, I don't think Israel has achieved
the level of maintaince of human rights currently held in the US,
and very few countries have. Clearly, though, it *is* an "oasis
of democracy" if you compare it to its neighbours. It is simply
non-realistic to expect such a young country, which has to exist
in such a hostile environment, to achieve this standard of human
rights, and there are flaws, and I hope these flaws will be fixed.
But the world is not perfect. After all, what standards of human
rights existed in the US a mere 30 years ago? It takes time, and
it is not independent of external factors.

-Danny Keren.




#I am eager to hear how other readers are going to respond to this nonsense.
#
##-Danny Keren.
##
#
#salam,
#
#eyad
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:19:07 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov5.182442.11654@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
~In article <27669@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~
~>I think the term for this is "making the desert bloom"?
~
~Except that the Galilee is not a desert.

Precisely.


~Cheap shots often hit the firer in the foot. :)
~
~Good thing I'm wearing bullet-proof boots. :)

Indeed !!!   ;-)





-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

~"I hope you realise that it's probably against the Computing Regulations
~ to do that." - M. Holmesatollah
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 11 Nov 92 02:37:51 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:

>In article <1992Oct26.180255.28508@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly writes:

>When an Israeli soldier (or any occupation soldier) is in an occupied land
>(West Bank, Gaza, South Lebanon), and he/she dies in any type of resistence
>action, then he/she died in duty for the ideas of the state they represent.
>They  are "soldiers" and this is their "paid job", so that is expected to
>some extent from him/her, from the family, and from the Israeli government.

The answer is simple and could be extracted from recent history ... In the
late 1930's/early 1940's a country called germany was run by a group of
NAZI's ... the Nazis used this very same procedure that you have just
outlined namely; when a nazi soldier is killed in a country that they
brutally occupied (France as an example) by the resistance hero's they
used to get a group of the resisdents of the nearby village (women/children
included) and execute them with there blood-thirsty/black-hatred rifles.

Israel is using this same procedure again ... Now.

______________________________________________________________________________
                                                                             _
Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
                                          ||               | |               |
Better Known as ...                       ||    ()         | |               |
                                          ||           _   | |      .-     | |
Hadi el-gossah gossat hamdah ...          ||      \___/ \__/ |      (_|____/ |
Hamdah, el-rimsh elly yitehaddah ...      ||       |  \_/    |        |      |
galat mareedak ...                        ||  \___/      /   |   \___/    *  |
mareedak, lo tethbahnee be`eedak mareedak.||            /
===============================================================================
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:49:40 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>One can speculate that 
>permanent annexation of part of south Lebanon was one of the long-term 
>aims of the 1982 war, but (a) there's no solid direct evidence of that, 
>and (b) Israel now knows that nothing short of the most draconian measures 
>could "pacify" the south to the extent where settlement was possible.
>My bet is that annexation is not currently considered to be a realistic
>option.  I just wish Israel would hurry up and realise that there is
>only one option, and that is withdrawal from Lebanon.

They clearly realize it, and have stated clearly they want to
withdraw.

But they also want their citizens to be safe from Katyusha rocket
attacks.  Their negotiating stance is essentially:  Let's work out
security arrangements so our children in the Galilee don't have to
sleep in bomb shelters, so we can withdraw;  let's sign a peace treaty
and live together in harmony.

I have little doubt that the Lebanese would like the same thing.
Unfortunately, since Lebanon is now a province of Syria (de facto),
the Lebanese can't come to an agreement on their own.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast