From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Subject: Re: JDs (was Re: Clinton in _Rolling Stone_ ...)
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 11:15:51 GMT

rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:

>n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

>>So a bunch of pistol shells are lying around.  All that proves is that
>>pistols were fired.   Do you have any evidence that any of them were
>>automatic?  To my knowledge, there are no .22 automatics, and there is
>>only one type of automatic pistol that uses .32 caliber ammo: a Checho-
>>slav made collector/curiosity item that would certainly suprise me to
>>see as the choice of a serious criminal

>There are .22 automatics, yes. Converting a semi to full is not impossible.

I have never seen a .22 cal machine pistol or submachine gun, but one netter
wrote me that Ruger 10-22s .22 LR rifles have been made (or remade?) in
full auto and can be had in those states like Colorado which allow it.
There has still been no link presented tying .22, .32 or 9mm cases
lying around in Oakland to any full autos, though.

>.32 caliber ammo is directly exchangeable with 7.65mm ammo, and 7.65 is
>a NATO standard, so, yes, many, many weapons take .32 caliber ammo. Ruger
>automatics come to mind ...

	Ruger does not make any pistols in .32 ACP, nor have they ever.  
Ruger does not make any automatic weapoons in any pistol caliber at all, nor
have they ever.  If you can correct me on this, please do so.  The only
.32 ACP machine pistol that I have ever seen or read any reference to is 
the Czech Scorpion.   If there are .32 ACP cal machine pistols other than 
this particular model, I would be very interested in discovering it.

	What NATO armies still use .32 ACP, that very outdated and 
feeble round?

>>	If you are saying pistols, revolvers, shotguns, or even rifles 
>>are common among gang members, I believe you.  However if you are saying
>>that submachine guns are common among gangmembers, or even claiming that
>>that the use of submachine guns by gangmembers is not extrordinarly rare,
>>then I cannot believe you.  Were you to provide some evidence for your 
>>claim, perhaps I could.

>CAR-15s, the semi-automatic version of the M-16, are widely available.
>The difference is in the firing pin, I believe.

	The difference is much more than that.  It is nothing you 
could convert in your basement tool shop, I wager.  Why would anyone 
take a nice $800 gun and chop it up in attempt to make it full auto 
when he can buy a cheapster (MAC clones, etc) for the same purpose? 

	How many gang members (many convicted felons, I assume)
walk around with rifles, rather than something they can hide?

>>I have yet to see any evidence that automatic weapons are commonly
>>used by gang-bangers.

>Go cruise Oakland some weekend evening, I suggest the projects near the
>Oakland West BART station ...

> richard

	Given the ease of manufacture of full-auto MAC clones and the like, 
I'm sure someone's making them and someone's buying them, but 1) they do
not seem like the weapon most ideal to a criminal compared to either the 
much more concealable and handy pistol, or the much more devestating 
12 ga shotgun.  2) If they are out there being used in crimes,
why is it such an incredible rarity that the firearm traced to use in
a crime actualy turns out to be a full auto?  Are the full auto users so
much smarter than normal criminals that they simply never get caught?

Not flames, just points to ponder.

Jim Del Vecchio
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