From: valerie@ucsd.edu (Valerie Polichar)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Nagi's comment on dream control
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:20:36 GMT
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I had written:
> What about lucid dreaming?
> ...Control of all aspects of self can be a 
> /very/ useful *tool*, as it allows precise concentration of all one s energies.

Tagi replies, first:
> Lucid dreaming is what I was talking about when I mentioned 'infusing the
> conscious mind into dreamstate' during waking consciousness.  My
> understanding is that this style of 'visualization' has nothing to do
> with controlling the dreams one has while asleep...

My sister's definition of lucid dreaming is precisely that of controlling the dreams
one has while asleep, or, more properly, semiconscious /intervention/ in these
dreams.

>Perhaps you could start another thread and tell us more about this technique?

I'm not really qualified, as I have had only minimal success at this technique yet,
but I will try to bring in some sensible references and their definitions to post!

> 'Control of all aspects of the self' is a tricky phrase.  What I argue is
> dangerous is conscious control over all aspects of the self.  It amounts
> to the expansion of the conscious mind into areas of the mind/body complex
> which have heretofore been the jurisdiction of the subconscious mind.  This
> type of 'control' leads to undue stress, anxiety and pain.  It involves
> an unhealthy repression of subconscious energies and a denial of their value.

Hmm.  Perhaps we're differing on the definition of the word 'control', more
than anything else?

I certainly do not recommend limiting, leashing or consciously driving
all aspects of self --- if anything, the opposite!!  The concept is frightening to me.
I meant, simply, that it is useful to be able to access the various areas of
self with some elements of direction, in case it proves useful; a case in point
would be the practice of asanas for the purpose of focusing the mind on a single
point, or, alternatively, Kabalistic work for the purpose of accelerating mental
activity.

> What I'm arguing is unhealthy is the 'conquering of the subconscious' by
> the conscious mind.  This has a direct correlative in modern government,
> where, as Big Brother...

Ugh!  No no no!  That's not at all what I meant!  I agree entirely that limiting,
taming and enslaving the subconscious is vastly unhealthy, as you noted:

> In an individual this would take the form of the revolt by the subconscious
> mind: sickness, hallucination, nightmares, delusion.  Too much yang, and
> yin will come roaring back like a monsoon.

>In our society this happens
> most frequently to those individuals who fear 'losing control', and by
> monitoring, restricting and eventually destroying themselves they fight
> to maintain such a mindstate.

I am convinced we are talking about two different things, as  I heartily
agree with what you are saying here.  :-)
  
>To experience a certain
> mindstate it is often very effective to strive toward its opposite.  If
> I want to be at peace, for example, a strong dose of exercise will clear
> out any built-up stress in my system and I'll move toward that peace
> without having to 'will myself there'.

This is an example of "control", under my definition.
However, I believe that willing ones' self into that place is equally valid.
I subscribe to many Taoist views, but not to the entirety.  I see those
tools as useful, but not as the only effective ones available.

You are pleasant to discourse with, Nagi!

Valerie Polichar
----------------
                and it could come to be that way,
                your hand, here, the heat of
                no sun and none of my hearts entwined,
                just that deep river
                pouring from my fingers into your open eyes
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