From: mss2@quads.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Yet another sleepless night
Reply-To: mss2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:10:28 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.195025.24102@news.iastate.edu> SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin) writes:
>I never said men weren't hurt by the views of a male-dominated
>society.  I'm only saying that I think it's a different problem.
>Afterall, if men are in control, aren't they in a better position
>to make changes?

	"Well, are they?  Let's see... I'm a white male (though not
Anglo-Saxon or Protestant :-) ).  Now, what should I do in order to
make changes which cannot be done by someone who isn't?  What
capabilities do I have?  There may well be _advantages_ allocated to
me by virtue of this status, but what, if any, _control_ do I have
over this?"

>Obviously not.  However, in times of trouble, blacks will stand by
>blacks, whites by whites, etc.. (Generally, not specifically.)  Not
>necessarily a good thing, but you have to admit that this is how
>it works, more often than not.  This is also what has taken place
>in the work-force.  The men do the promoting, so they promote men.
>This is changing, slowly, but it's a painful struggle.

	"Fine.  So it's my moral responsibility, when and if I'm in
any position of authority, to bend over backwards to avoid acting in a
discriminatory manner.  I do attempt this, insofar as I can manage
it-- not that I've ever had much in the way of authority."


>>I don't think oppression is the fault of being male.  I think it's the fault of
>>being human.
>
>True.  But oppression occurs when one group discriminates against
>another.  In this case, we are talking about the oppression of
>women by men.  It doesn't sound right to say that men oppress
>men in the same context.  I think the oppression of men by men,
>(or of men by a male-dominated society) could be called
>peer pressure.  This is sort of a different thing, isn't it?

	"Is it?  I can only control my own actions.  Am I more
responsible for the oppressive actions of men whose opinions I don't
share than I am for oppressive actions by women?  How so?  They don't
ask me my opinion of date rape or sexual harassment before engaging in
it, and when the subject comes up in conversation I think I make my
own opinions fairly clear."

>>>>Men lose over 90% of custody fights.
>>>
>>>>If in the course of such a fight, a woman accuses a man of child abuse, she
>>>>      is automatically believed, and he is put in jail (and loses all chance
>>>>      of getting the children unless the woman is obviously mentally ill).
>>>
>>>Aren't these a penalty of a male dominated system?

	"Are they?  If males were rationally plotting a course of
domination, would they deliberately create any disadvantages for
themselves?  Isn't it more likely that it's the result of a flawed
system, the fault for which cannot easily be traced to a group of
villains, but simply developed as a result of a myriad decisions by
widely seperated people?  Yes, part of that system resulted in the
people with authority being mostly men for a long time-- but note the
distinction between "all rulers are men" and "all men are rulers"--
the two are not at all the same, nor are the implications."

>>You're saying that if women dominated the courts and the legal system, men
>>would win about half of the custody fights?  Can you give me the reasoning
>>behind this, or did you mean something else?

>Ah, no.  I'm not saying this.  I'm saying that if men don't
>like this outcome, then why did they arrange for it, and why don't
>they change it?  After all, this is a male dominated society,
>isn't it?

	"Then someone failed to send me my union card.  :-)  Honestly,
no one asks _me_ how to run society any more than they do you-- by
asking political support, votes, money, etc., none of which I have a
disproportionate line to.  There are things about this male dominated
society I don't like-- now, how can I, as a member of the alleged
ruling class, alter things?"

 It strikes me that the women's equality movement
>prompted the change that it is occuring in the court system, where
>men are now starting to have better luck in custody battles.

	"Very likely.  The idea of sexual equality is a good thing for
many reasons-- after all, if it _only_ benefitted women and _only_
harmed men, then a society with absolute power vested in
self-interested males would hardly have allowed it to succeed, now
would it?  :-)  This is an important thing to consider, actually-- if
things were simply a matter of a ruling class imposing its monolithic
interests, then a male-dominated electorate would never have voted in
the 19th amendment, giving women the vote.  Not that it was an easy
struggle, but the suffragettes did convince a majority of men that
justice could only be served by giving women the right to equal
electoral representation, which in turn has led to a significant
increase in women's political power.  (And if women were agreed
upon goals, it would be greater-- remember, women are a majority in
the US, which translates to electoral victory on any issue on which
women can develop a consensus.)"

>I'm not saying that *you* are responsible.  I'm just saying that
>there is a difference between peer pressure and oppression.  As a
>male in a male dominated society, aren't you (generically speaking)
>in a better position to do something about these problems?  Aren't
>you in a better position to defend yourself?

	"How?"

Michael
-- 
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Workers of the world, forgive me.
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 You had more to lose than I thought."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Karl Marx (1990) as imagined by
mss2@usite-next.uchicago.edu     Jim Koncz (konc@midway.uchicago.edu)
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