HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ehr@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Ernest H. Robl)
Subject: Re: writing insecurities
Summary: reasons for revisions
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:25:32 GMT

> In article <92225.154641U52892@uicvm.uic.edu>, U52892@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
> |>
> |> Yesterday, I submitted an article to my boss. She told me the
> |> article was good but needed revisions. At that point, I started
> |> to have self-doubts on whether I am just not a good writer. I know
> |> I'm a good reporter but not a good writer. My articles are often
> |> well-researched and substantial but structure is weak and awkward.
> |> How will I become a good writer?
> |>
> |> I realized journalism is different from fiction and technical writing.
> |> But any comments, suggestion or personal stories on doubting one's
> |> calling --- in this case, journalism --- and ability are welcome.
> |>


One thing that no one in this thread has mentioned yet:

Did your editor point out why she wanted the revisions?  Did she 
explain why a different approach might work better?  If not, did you
ask?

When I started out in journalism, I was fortunate to work for and 
with a number of people who provided good insights in these areas.  I
learned a lot more from them than from all the journalism classes,
many of which were taught by people with limited experience.  

Journalism covers a broad spectrum.  What may be right for one
audience in one situation may not be right for another audience in
another.  It may be a case not of something not being written well
but of something not being appropriate for a particualr situation.

A good editor has a clear concept of what works for a particular
publication's audience and should be able to explain that.

-- Ernest

-- 

"My other computer is a Nikon N8008." -- Ernest H. Robl
Ernest H. Robl (ehr@ecsvax)  Durham, NC, USA   +1  919   286-3845
                                         FAX:  +1  919   286-1696
Newsgroups: misc.writing,rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: goolsby@harpo.rtp.dg.com (Chris Goolsby)
Subject: Harlan Ellison's writer's credo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:50:56 GMT
Organization: Addled Writers in Need

Greetings all.  When I was much younger, one of my aunts gave me a
copy of Harlan Ellison's writer's credo.  It fills a single sheet of
typewritten paper and is divided into paragraphs, each stating a
different aspect of his writer's personality.

For example, one started with something like, "Do you need a haiku?  I
can write a haiku.  I can write. . . ."  And so on, detailing all the
sorts of things he could write.  I'm pretty sure the credo ended with
"This I attest, though I know I will die for it and from it."

This meant a lot to me back when I was a struggling, young writer, and
I would like to share it with my writing group.  However, my wife and
I have moved three times in the past two years and the credo got lost
somewhere in the shuffle. . . .

I searched through all of Ellison's works at my local library and
can't find the thing.  My aunt is in very poor health and can't find
it amoungst her things--she's published several volumes of poetry and
has mounds and boxes of papers lying about her house.

So. . .does anyone out there know where this credo was published?  If
you could send me a reference (or the credo itself, if you're feeling
kind and are a quick typist), then I'd greatly appreciate it.

I prefer email, but will post the credo when and if I can find it,
assuming there is some interest.

Thanks,
Chris
goolsby@dg-rtp.dg.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing

mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan) writes:

>Would anyone else find it fascinating to watch Crawford in a
>"fly-on-the-wall" style as he works through the early stages of his
>novel????

>Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)

I'm certainly interested.  There just may be a non-fiction book come out
of it for you, as well, Crawford.  You are indeed courageous, and thanks
for the opportunity.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Suicide is the most sincere form 
fish@hpscit.hp.com             |  of self-criticism.
From: danr@ais.org (Daniel Romanchik)
Subject: Re: desktop publishing?
Organization: UMCC
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:42:01 GMT

In article <cass8806.230@elan.glassboro.edu> cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
>	is there a desktop publishing discussion on the internet anywhere?
>i've looked, but haven't found one, though i figure there MUST be one around.
>i've just started using aldus pagemaker and -- of course -- am having 
>problems....blugh.
>

   Try comp.text.*
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: "Wow! You're a writer?"
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:06:55 GMT

In a recent misc.writing article, miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au wrote:
>
>However what I find interesting among a few writer friends, is the 
>reluctance to reveal what it is that they actually write.  While I
>write crime/horror/thriller, I started out writing murdery & mystery
>drama games.  [Which considering the publication of a book on the subject, 
>has been quite successful).  But all too often I'm told that while what I 
>do is all very good, when am I going to do some "serious writing"? 
>[Grrrrrrrrrrr...]  

You think *you* get a bad reaction about how serious you are, try telling
them your most recent project is a romance novel!! Not only do people
think you aren't taking your writing seriously, they often stop taking
you seriously as well. 

Sheesh!

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sq.com
From: yoshi@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil (D M Yoshikami)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Charactor Titles
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:45:32 GMT
Organization: National Naval Medical Center

In article <1992Aug12.181748.25485@bcrka451.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>I find that, in general, people just don't know how to look things up.
>This is bad enough in the general populations, but we writers (or
>would-be writers) should be more literate than that.  

Yes.  Many writers write books and articles -- and guess where these things
often wind up!  You guessed it -- Libraries!!!  It is well worth the time
learning how to research and find things out.  But if you are not sure, there
is a shortcut.  It's called the Reference Librarian.  That's the person who
knows where just about anything is, can quote L of C call numbers like there's
no tomorrow, and knows the in's and out's of getting stuff on Inter-library
Loan if you need it.  They'll also know of other libraries which may have
more material, or another librarian or even a professor (or whonot) who knows
where to find more stuff.  And if you're really nice, they might even show you 
some sneaky ways to find things out, and some really unusual books that you 
never knew existed.  

By all means, go stack stomping, and make friends with the librarian.  I 
learned that I had to do the latter in graduate school.  If you irritate the
librarian, that can only make your thesis research that much harder.  :-)
Fortunately, I did not have to learn THAT the hard way.

DY :-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
D M Yoshikami  :-) ;-) :-) | Internet: yoshikami@usuhsb.ucc.usuhs.nnmc.navy.mil
May the Forth be with you! | Bitnet  : yoshikami@usuhsb.bitnet
***  !!xob X*NU V METSYS T&TA eht ni renosirp dleh gnieb m`I  !pleH  !pleH  ***
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: pww@bnr.ca (Peter Whittaker)
Subject: Re: Charactor Titles
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:04:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.172549.4344@thinkage.on.ca> jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner) writes:
>And by the way, I know a number of people with joint Canadian-
>American citizenship.  Since Canadians are still nominally
>British subjects

Nope, 'fraid not, next contestant....  :->

The British monarch is also "{King | Queen} of Canada", but that does
not make us British subjects, no way no how;  try applying for British
citizenship if you're a native Canadian (esp. if you have no immediate
British ancestry).

Canada is also a member of the British commonwealth, but that has no
effect on citizenship.

pww
From: eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Why do you write?
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:46:51 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug12.102916.29537@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>References: <24751@castle.ed.ac.uk> <1992Aug8.131453.8476@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
>In a previous article, eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving) says:

>>	Wow, can you really read your own stories and enjoy them? I hate
>>re-reading mine. All the 'mistakes' stand out a mile. Things I thought
>>were quite subtle when I put them in positively leap out the page at me.
>>I find reading my writing about the most harrowing experience I can
>>think of.

>That seems a shame--like not being able to enjoy your own cooking.  When I
>reread and mistakes leap out (and they do, they do) I revise again.  Every
>place I get that squiggly feeling, I change.  When I find myself changing
>-back- to what I had before, I figure I'm about done, and send the thing
>out.  But I may easily reread it a year later, find more bad places, and
>revise again.  I'm lazy about starting something new, but a bear on
>revision. 

	I only actually dislike rereading my work when it is finished,
not when I am still redrafting. I tend smply to change the story in my
mind when I am redrafting, and obviously I neveer add anything which I
think is bad at the time. It's reading the final draft that gets to me.

>Is this an individual quirk, that even when you've got it revised and
>re-revised, you can't enjoy it because it's yours (sort of like not being
>able to eat something after you've smelled it cooking all day)?  Or is it
>that the story isn't finished, because you haven't seasoned it to your
>taste yet? 

	Hmmm. I'm not sure really. I dislike reading stories of my own
which I have been told by (usually pretty reliable) friends are 'good'
(I HATE that word). I suspect I am seeing things which someone else
reading the story wouldn't.
	I think the stories are finished. I always do at least two
redrafts, even if it is only changing a few words here and there. The
problem is that if I used your system I would never get anything
finished. The first short story I completed was ten pages long, and
took me six months to write because I redrafted it so many times. It
had a bad effect on the story structure too, everything became very
unnatural. Since then I have aimed to redraft between two and four times
for each story.
	I also have a script for a video which I will almost certainly
nevr shoot, because I don't think I could stand listening to actors
saying the lines I have written. That is despite the fact I am really
pleased with the script it's self.

-- 
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|		     OPINIONS ARE THERE TO BE LAUGHED AT.                      |
|  all text or parts thereof withinin this box are TM of Eoghann Irving 1992   |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: wales@valeria.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales)
Subject: Re: Dual US/other citizenship (was Re: Charactor Titles)
Reply-To: wales@CS.UCLA.EDU (Rich Wales)
Organization: UCLA CS Department, Los Angeles
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:28:22 GMT

James Alan Gardner wrote:

	And by the way, I know a number of people with joint
	Canadian-American citizenship.

Charles Perez replied:

	Hmmm... I didn't know that the USA permitted dual
	citizenship.  I'll have to check up on that.

James is correct.  Current US law =does= permit dual citizenship in cer-
tain situations.  The details are far too complicated to get into here,
but you can get a discussion of the issue via Internet anonymous FTP
from valeria.cs.ucla.edu (131.179.64.36) in /pub/faq.dualcit -- or, if
you don't have anonymous FTP access, send me e-mail (wales@cs.ucla.edu)
and I'll mail you the stuff.

--
Rich Wales <wales@CS.UCLA.EDU> // UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596 // +1 (310) 825-5683
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: National Writers Union
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:55:47 GMT

I just received another solicitation from the National Writers
Union. From their literature, they seem a bit militant--are horror
stories the way *all* unions encourage membership?-- and
dues seem steep.

Has anyone heard of this group?  Is anyone a member?  If so, is
it worth it?  What are the alternatives--besides not joining
anything that is?

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett)
Subject: Re: National Writers Union
Organization: Lockheed Santa Cruz, CA.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 14:12:47 GMT

In article <mtan-180892140046@maureen.cen.uiuc.edu> mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan) writes:

>I just received another solicitation from the National Writers
>Union. From their literature, they seem a bit militant--are horror
>stories the way *all* unions encourage membership?-- and
>dues seem steep.

>Has anyone heard of this group?  Is anyone a member?  If so, is
>it worth it?  What are the alternatives--besides not joining
>anything that is?

>Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)

Maureen,
  I also received a packet from NWU at the suggestion of a friend.  Since 
it is a union, affiliated with the UAW, I question if this might not be 
waving a red flag at prospective editors/publishers.  I as much as anyone 
would like to see advances and royalties fall within equitable boundaries (
i.e. provide the writer with an above-poverty-level lifestyle), and I'd 
also like the benefit of insurance coverage when I quit my "real" job <VBG>,
 but this scares me.
  I enjoy my membership in RWA and find the benefits more than 
offset the annual dues ($45.)  Their magazine is quite good, and 
improving with each issue.
  Suzanne. 
-----
suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: desktop publishing?
Organization: Glassboro State College, Glassboro, NJ
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:31:24 GMT

	is there a desktop publishing discussion on the internet anywhere?
i've looked, but haven't found one, though i figure there MUST be one around.
i've just started using aldus pagemaker and -- of course -- am having 
problems....blugh.

kc
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:15:48 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Maureen Tan has suggested (seconded by Suzanne) I keep posting stuff about the
new novel...OK. As I said yesterday, I'll be glad to answer questions along the
way--privately if you prefer, but publicly if possible (what a horribly
alliterative phrase!).

The editorial letter to oneself is the usual first step for me; eventually it
turns into a journal of running commentary that I use to keep myself honest and
clarify my ideas about the story. I also remind myself of chores that need
doing...one of the first, for me, is learning the meanings of some basic Irish
words and perhaps some Nahuatl or Maya. That's because the heroine's people are
remotely descended from ancient Irish, and the red magicians are Aztec or other
Mesoamerican. I could make up languages, but it's more fun to give a character
a name that actually means something. (In Greenmagic, the Cantareans do have a
made-up language, but the Badakhar speak a mildly evolved proto-Indo-European
(Snegh=Snake, Albohar=White Hair, etc.).) And if this project isn't fun, why do
it?

Next comes the project bible: a looseleaf binder, as portable as I can make it,
in which to put notes to myself, vocabularies, plot outlines, and passages that
I can write when trapped in boring faculty meetings or otherwise in danger in
wasting time. The Redmagic bible will contain some of the vocabulary and
grammar material from Greenmagic, plus possible names for new characters, ideas
for cultural problems, and so on.

Tomorrow I'll start working on themes and how to strike them in the opening
scenes of the novel.
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: writing insecurities
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:02:19 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com


In article <92225.154641U52892@uicvm.uic.edu>, U52892@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
|>
|> Yesterday, I submitted an article to my boss. She told me the
|> article was good but needed revisions. At that point, I started
|> to have self-doubts on whether I am just not a good writer. I know
|> I'm a good reporter but not a good writer. My articles are often
|> well-researched and substantial but structure is weak and awkward.
|> How will I become a good writer?
|>
|> I realized journalism is different from fiction and technical writing.
|> But any comments, suggestion or personal stories on doubting one's
|> calling --- in this case, journalism --- and ability are welcome.
|>

Everybody feels this way. Nobody gets it right the first time. After a 
review cycle, I read the comments my reviewers give me and I PLAN on 
being mad for that afternoon. Then, I come back the next day and 
professionally and dispassionately make the changes necessary. My first 
drafts are always weak in structure, too wordy, etc., but they contain 
all of the necessary elements, and reflect sound research - more or less
like yours. After rewriting, I always feel there is an improvement. Very 
little of what I write can't stand improvement, believe me.

My second drafts are much better. My third drafts are excellent. (Well, 
at least they're better than my second drafts, ok?) They don't contain 
any MORE substance than the first draft, but the pieces fit together 
better.

And remember, "If you think they'll love it, they'll hate it. And if you 
think they'll hate it, you're right."

Hang in there.

<-------------------------------^------------------------------------->
|  Len Olszewski                |  "The best way to have a good idea  |
|  Technical Writer             |   is to have a LOT of ideas."       |
|  saslpo@unx.sas.com           |                                     |
| "Have cursor, will curse."    |    - Linus Pauling                  |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions this ludicrous are mine. Reasonable opinions will cost you.|
<-------------------------------v------------------------------------->
From: ebupaf@ebu.ericsson.se (Pat Fargo 6266)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Publishing
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:39:50 GMT
Reply-To: ebupaf@ebu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Business Communications, Inc.

I have finished my autobiography, and am seeking
information or advice on how to proceed. I know
my chances are slim and none, but would still like
to send it to a few publishers for their review.
Is there a FAQ, or something in this group to help 
me? Thanks in advance.
---
Patrick A. Fargo		Ericsson Business Communication
				Anaheim, California
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jimj@cleanplate.EBay.Sun.COM (James D. Jones)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: National Writers Union
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:29:52 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cleanplate.ebay.sun.com

In article <suzanne.68@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com> suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett) writes:

>Maureen,
>  I also received a packet from NWU at the suggestion of a friend.  Since 
>it is a union, affiliated with the UAW, I question if this might not be 
>waving a red flag at prospective editors/publishers.  I as much as anyone 
>would like to see advances and royalties fall within equitable boundaries (
>i.e. provide the writer with an above-poverty-level lifestyle), and I'd 
>also like the benefit of insurance coverage when I quit my "real" job <VBG>,
> but this scares me.


Okay, I don't know all _that_ much about NWU, but I think your fears
are unjustified.  They are officially a union, but they're more
an advocacy group than a chest-thumping look-for-the-union-label closed-
shop-or-die trade union.  You don't have to tell every editor that you're
a member of the NWU.  The only way you'd ever tell them is if you
were bringing pressure to bear on them because they'd already ripped you
off.  And in that case, you're probably not going to try to work for
them again anyway.  

NMU's education role -- teaching writers their legal rights and how to
do business and not get burned -- is just as important as its 
advocacy role.  I've attended meeting of the Silicon Valley local, and
it's a source of information for the freelancer (which I'm not, yet).
NWU also put on educational workshops on how to get into various types
of writing; the Silicon Valley local was busy organizing a tech writing
program for one of these when I attended.

Not to mention -- a good source of contacts and work.  The Silicon Valley
chapter, which is largely by and for technical writers, operates its own
phone-in employment service for full-time and contract work.												 
Some NWU person correct any errors I've made, please.  At any rate, it
seems like a fine organization to me, I doubt that there'll be any 
career fallout, and I plan to join in a few months.  They seem a lot more
to the point than, say, the STC. 
From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:28:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Calling Oneself a Writer (Was: Why do you write?)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: misc.writing


I've been slow to respond to this question because I've been giving it a
great deal of thought.  My immediate response was a flip, "For the money
and fame, of course!"  But I decided that wasn't any more funny than it
was true. :-]

I've decided that my *personal* reason for writing is a quest for
knowledge and understanding.  (My, doesn't that sound lofty?)  But
seriously, I feel my ability to articulate feelings, incidents,
thoughts, etc., enables me to understand them; or at least leads me in
that direction.   

This train of thought eventually led me to pose the question, "Is
rational thought possible without language?"  I've done some research
into it, but decided it was more appropriate to post it in
alt.usage.english.  It's an intriguing, if unresolved, question for me.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Insanity is just a state of mind.
fish@hpscit.hp.com             | 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: casey@well.sf.ca.us (Kathleen Creighton)
Subject: Re: "Wow! You're a writer?"
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:37:47 GMT


Jeff, you read *far far* too much into my posting.  I lead a pretty low-
key life.  The amount of work I'd have to put into pitching and querying
in order to make a living writing full time seems like a "hustle" to *me*.
That is to say, it's much more work than I am willing to do in order to
support myself (read:  keep those checks coming in regularly).

It has *nothing* to do with "evil money".  In fact, I'd like more of it, but
am not willing to put myself out with my writing in order to get it.
-- 
Kathleen Creighton                     {pacbell,hplabs,apple,ucbvax}!well!casey
San Francisco                          casey@well.sf.ca.us
       Just another annoyingly devoted Akita owner