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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:28:43 MET
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@LOGIN.DKUUG.DK>
Subject:      Re: Time of Jesus' death

Great! The problem seems to have been solved thanks to the help
i received from CHRISTIA.

I did some further investigation and what I found is quite interesting.

First, to refresh your memory. My problem was: Why does Mark 15:25 state
that Jesus was crucified at the third hour, whereas John 19:14 states
that Jesus was crucified shortly after the sixth hour.

I went through the Bible (there is nothing like a computer-based Bible
for this kind of work) and found all occurrences of time specifications
of the form: "The N'th hour." I found the following:

 The 3rd hour:  Matt 20:3, Mark 15:25, Acts 2:15, Acts 23:23.
 The 6th hour:  Matt 20:5, Matt 27:45, [Mark 15:33], [Luke 23:44], John 4:6,
                John 19:14, Acts 10:9.
 The 7th hour:  John 4:52.
 The 9th hour:  Matt 20:5, Matt 27:45, Matt 27:46, [Mark 15:33], [Mark 15:34],
                [Luke 23:44], Acts 3:1, Acts 10:3, [Acts 10:30].
 The 10th hour: John 1:39.
 The 11th hour: Matt 20:6, [Matt 20:9].

The verses in square brackets are parallel passages to other verses quoted.

Look at these numbers! Not counting parallel passages we get:
        14 references to the 3rd, 6th, or 9th hour.
         3 references to anything else.

And of these 3 references, Matt 20:6 is in a parable and is thus not a
"genuine" time.

It seems clear to me that in everyday speech the 3rd, 6th, and 9th hour
were used in a very broad sense. The 3rd hour probably just meant "some time
during morning". The 6th hour just meant "in the hours around noon". The
9th hour just meant "some time during the afternoon".

Now, if Jesus was crucified at, for example, 10:30 a.m., Mark might consider
this as part of the morning, and therefore refer to it as "the third hour",
whereas John would consider it "around noon", and refer to it as "the
sixth hour".

Praise God that once again an "error" in the Bible was not an error at all!

Yours in Christ,
Claus Tondering, Denmark
E-mail: ct@login.dkuug.dk
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:26:22 -0600
From:         Tom Shelton 314 694-3831 <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Being a faithful witness

Scott,

I would like to respond to your question.

Here is a question:  Should we always wait for someone to ask us a
question, or should we be bold enough to go to someone and begin a
dialogue about Christ, or church, or Bible study, or something like
that?  Sometimes I feel that if I had REAL boldness, I would go talk
to some of these people about Christ.  But "on the job" may not be
the right place to witness like this, what do you think?

I have found that I need to listen very carefully to the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes He leads me to talk to some of my co-workers and other time I feel
that my actions are the only thing that can witness to them.  Perhaps some
people feel threatened by witnessing at work.  At times I have felt, does
anyone know that I am a christian.  Just about that time the Lord sends
someone my way to remind me that my lifestyle has been noticed.  I have also
found that not saying something (especially when prodded) can produce a
climate ripe for witnessing.

With His love,
Tom Shelton
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:51:32 CST
From:         Russ Neumeier <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Babies & stuff (was: Re: Operation Pest)
              at Jan 7, 93 2:38 pm

> > Thanks everyone for your encouragement-- I'm looking forward to March (when
> > the baby is due) more and more! (I thought a subject title change might be
> > good since there seems to be two threads under the same heading...)
>
> Yeah! I missed this thread completely until shortly before my Christmas
> break - when it was too late to jump in. So, Russ, lets see who'll win
> the race in March... :-)

Well, the race is on!  Shellie went to the doctor last week, and he was
surprised to find that the baby is bigger than he expected -- in fact s/he is
one week ahead of schedule in the growth rate department so instead of March
28th as a due date it might be closer to March 21st.  This means that it's
possible for the baby to be born as early as March 7th.
>
> > As for finding out the sex of the baby, we want to be surprised, but it's
> > gonna be tough to watch the sonogram and not want to find out...
>
> Well, we didn't try to keep innocent and now we are fairly sure about
> our little one. This was really helpful for my wife, Ute. But we would
> also have no difficulties if the prediction would prove wrong - except
> for the name... we are having big troubles on finding even one! :-)

Well, you'd better get on the ball!  Shellie and I had the names picked out
for our first child well over TWO YEARS ago! (and in that two years we've
never decided to change the names -- except when the doctor suspected that
Shellie was carrying twins).  The name will be either Geoffrey Joshua or
Rachael Amy...

>
> Wolfgang <><
>
Russ Neumeier
russn@ssec.wisc.edu
SSEC, UW-Madison
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:35:13 CST
From:         Len Rugen <C4322LR@UMVMA.UMSYSTEM.EDU>
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant
              7 Jan 1993 13:22:00 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

Must every Amy Grant album be "gospel"?  Her own statements were that
todays youth need good, clean, fun music.  I think that is "Unguarded"
started and (the one with "Baby Baby" whose title I can't remember)
continued.  Listen closely to "That's What Love Is For", it's not
the "love" (i.e. SEX) message of pop rock.

Her "last" album was a new Christmas Album.  I haven't heard it, but I
think some (all) of this album is probably your traditional gospel.

What about those who hear Amy on secular radio for the first time
then go to her concerts?  If her concerts include a gospel message (I
think so) they will be exposed to something they might not otherwise
have ever heard. Gospel bait and switch?  It may work!

I heard that when Amy came here, the arena people asked how many cops
they should have for the concert, as they would for other pop concerts.
Amy's promoters said something like "Cops? Well they are welcome but we
usually don't need any!"

She might have lunch with rePublicans too!  :-)

Paul Overstreet, Glen Campbell and somebody else from country music have
gospel out now as well.  In the late 70's I thought I would NEVER like
a Glen Campbell song!

Len Rugen, Sr. Systems Programmer      E-Mail-C4322LR@UMVMA
Information Technology                  Alias-C4322LR@UMVMA.UMSYSTEM.EDU
University of Missouri
401 Clark Hall
Columbia, MO 65211

314-882-9237           cc:Mail Gateway-UMCCFGW.RUGENL@UMMVSB.UMSYSTEM.EDU
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:41:32 CST
From:         jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Unanswered prayer.
              7 Jan 1993 11:49:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:49:00 EST DRCV06::GRAHAM said:
>In romans 8:26, Paul says that we do not know "the what" to pray for, so
>the Spirit intercedes for us with, what I would call, the language of
>heaven.
>
>Paul is speaking to saved, elect individuals here, so this is in that
>context only.  I would say that God answers the prayers that the Spirit
>presents to Him, and He answers them as the Spirit has translated them, not
>as we have spoken / thought them.  Realize that what ends up being
>presented to God may be vastly different from what left our lips, or
>thoughts.
>Dan ... interesting thought -- especially in light of God's omnicience.
I wonder how your idea works in conjunction with the idea that God already
knows our thoughts, so translation of same thoughts seems a bit sticky ...
would you not say?  Again, if the Lord is Omnicient, even of His own thoughts
among the three Divine persons, then how does all of this work.?

Jesse Carnes


>We simply do not know what to pray for, nor how to pray for it, so the Holy
>Spirit must assist us.  I am absolutely sure God hears every prayer of a
>saint.  How He responds to that prayer is His business, not ours.  We may
>ask for money to pay the rent, the Spirit may translate that to say we need
>to lose our home so we are free to move to a place where God can use us,
>anything can happen.
>
>Prayer is neat stuff because we don't know what is happening on the other
>end, sort of a mystery, and no matter what happens, we know that "all
>things work together for them who love God and are called according to His
>purpose."
>
>Dan Graham
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:23:52 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer for Mark's Aunt/Uncle....

Mark,
Thanks, really .... sometimes it helps me to know that my prayers are
actually getting to the throne.  How does this come about??? Well, if
someone I've been praying for gets better after being sick, cool.  I know
He heard my prayer.  So, here's one for your Aunt and Uncle....I think if
we all prayed more, lots of stuff that goes on in today's world would
cease to happen....crime rates would go down, etc...
-------------
Dear Lord Jesus,
I ask first that you remove any sins I've committed today, forgive them,
and toss 'em behind your back, so I can humbly intercede for Mark's
relatives.  Please God, heal his Aunt of the broken bones, and give her
rest from the fight with emphysema.  Be with Mark's Uncle so that he can
find rest in you, and comfort in the shelter of your arms.
                                 We Love you,        Theresa
-------------
Also, gang...please pray for my Grandpa.  My Dad's dad went for his
annual physical exam and everything went WELL...my Grandpa is around
65-66 years old, and from what the doc said, is in perfect health.
(They tested for prostate cancer during the exam, and the tests came
back NEGATIVE!!!!!! PRAISE GOD, MY GRANDPA CAN STILL TAKE ME FISHIN'!
Just keep prayin' that the Lord will bless him.  His name?
Aubrey W. Blackwell  (Everyone calls him A.W....)
Thanks!
Theresa

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:54:57 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      'Harley Davidson" Tee...

 One of my musician friends came from a Phil Driscoll concert with that
teeshirt, Tom...I saw it and asked where I could find one.  Talk about
PUNCH.  That shirt was TOO AWESOME.

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:51:24 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: C.S. Lewis

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
>Subject: Re: C.S. Lewis
>Organization: Indiana University
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:56:58 GMT

In article (zane of dhahran) writes:

>Speaking of Christmas, how about the circumcision on the 8th day.  Did you
>celebrate that?  This was the first blood that the Lord shed for us.

   In the United States, January 1 is a holy day of obligation for
Catholics.  This is the Feast of Mary, Mother of God.  It is also
known as the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ.  So, yes, we did
celebrate it.

Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:07:30 -0500
From:         "Ann M. Hathcock" <ALI00AMH@UNCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New CARMEN Video

Yvette,
The "Revival In The Land" video has 8 songs on it.  4 of the 8 songs are
concept videos.  I have seen this video but do not own it.  It is also very
good and well done production.  The address for Carman Ministries is:
                       Carman Ministries
                       P.O. Box 701050
                       Tulsa, OK 74170-1050
The phone number is 918-258-4732.  I hope this helps.  If you call today
maybe they can ship the videos by Friday express mail.  Let me know if you
need anything else.

In Christ,
Ann Hathcock
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:54:43 +0000
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 1/7

MAN: "All people are like the grass.  And all their strength is like the
flowers of the field" (Isaiah 40:6).

GOD: "Our Lord God rules.  He is the All-Powerful" (Revelation 19:6).

"The Lord is king.  He is clothed with majesty.  The Lord is clothed in
majesty and armed with strength" (Psalm 93:1).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used
by permission.
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:16:03 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New CARMEN Video

> I                                                                     would
> recommend anything that Carman has recorded because he is true warrior for the
> Lord.  His concerts are especially great since he chooses to
> not charge for admission.
>
Thank you Ann,
Now I have another request. Could you please tell me what is on the
"Revival in the Land" video. And if you have either, could you give me
the address and phone number that I maybe could order it from. I hate
to be burden. But, the stores I have called in Dallas are out of the
Revival video, and I need it by Friday night. Thanks. Yvette

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:54:25 CST
From:         JRALLS@TRINITY.EDU
Subject:      Re: Living Epistles Tees...
              11 Jan 1993 21:35:55 -0600 from <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>

Another great shirt was one that I saw in the supermarket. In huge
letters on the front it said
                        DON'T
                        FIGHT
                        NAKED
That really got my attention but from the front I couldn't tell that
there was anything more to the message. Then I saw the back, with the
scripture from Ephesians 6:10 that said (I forgoet how it was arranged)
               PUT ON THE WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD

My daughter's favorite is the one that says GOD DOESN'T BELIEVE IN
ATHEISTS (probably because her father is one). She has a couple of
shirts she got at church camp and she wears them to school. I asked
her if there was any problem with that and she said no, no one makes
fun of her. When I was in middle school I know I never would have worn
anything like that (I don't think they had shirts like that back then)
They are a great witnessing tool but some are quite bold and these
days people are easily offended by the truth.

Just my 2 cents.
JoEllen

JoEllen Ralls                       Jralls@trinity (Bitnet)
Elizabeth Coates Maddux Library     Jralls@trinity.edu (Internet)
Trinity University                  so many books,
San Antonio, Texas                          so little time...
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:05:24 -0500
From:         Braden Glen <d246@UNI05.LARC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      from C S Lewis...

  'My grandfather, I'm told, used to say that he 'looked forward to having some
interesting conversations with St Paul when he got to heaven'. Two clerical
gentlemen talking at ease in a club! It never seemed to cross his mind that an
encounter with St Paul might be an overwhelming experience even for a Evange-
lical clergyman of good family. But when Dante saw the great apostles in
heaven they affected him like MOUNTAINS. There's lots to be said against
devotions to saints; but at least they keep on reminding us that we are very
small people compared with them. How much smaller before their Master?'
                                    _Letters to Malcolm_   ch 2

  'The doctrine of the Second Coming teaches us that we do not and cannot know
when the world drama will end. The curtain may be rung down at any moment...
This seems to some people intolerably frustrating.... We do not know the
play.... The Author knows. The audience, if there is an audience (if angels and
archangels and all the company of heaven fill the pit and the stalls) may have
an inking.... When it is over, we may be told. We are led to expect that the
Author will have something to say to each of us on the part that each of us
has played. The playing it well is what matters infinitely.'
                                           _Ibid._

  'The idea which...shuts out the Second Coming from our minds, the idea of the
world slowly ripening to perfection, is a myth, not a generalization from
experience. And it is a myth which distracts us from our real duties and our
real interest. It is our attempt to guess the plot of a drama in which we are
the characters. But how can the characters in a play guess the plot? We are
not the playwright, we are not the producer, we are not even the audience. We
are on the stage. To play well the scenes in which we are 'on' concerns us
much more than to guess about the scenes that follow it.'
                                   _The World's Last Night_ ch 7



 Glen A Braden                           D246@uni05.larc.nasa.gov
 System Analyst                          wk 804 865-9387
 UNISYS                                  hm 804 851-6530

 'By and by when I look at His face, beautiful face, thorn scarred face,
    By and by when I look at His face, I'll wish I've given him more...'
                                              -Hymn,
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Original_cc:  RITER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:38:00 EDT
From:         RITER@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant

Hi!  I'm Debbie and I joined this discussion group a couple of days
ago.  I am not very "sophisticated" in the intricacies of this system
so, please be patient with me as I learn.  I am very happy to hear of
this discussion group and I am sure it will be a blessing for me.  I
too feel that with Amy Grant's music being played on secular stations,
that more people have been introduced to something they may not been
familiar with before.  Also, as Pastor Chip of my church is always
telling us, you can't see what's in a person's heart -- only the Lord
knows that.  If she can draw people closer, that's great.
Debbie
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Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1993 12:34:25 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Unanswered Prayer

>
>If Amy waters down the gospel to others on MTV, etc, then this is wrong.
>

WHAT is this watering down the Gospel stuff???
WHO says she waters down the gospel? WHO says that her job is to sing
the Gospel anyway?? If we are to criticise her, then howabout having a go
at every so called christian in the music business who does not include
the word JESUS or JOHN 3:16 in EVERYONE of their songs..

>I can't imagine CHARLES FINNEY, JOHN WESLEY, GEORGE WHITFIELD, OR JOHN LAKE
>being like Amy Grant, in re to how she acts on mtv.
>

What does she do that is so sinful in comparison to those people you mentioned
above???
I also cant imagine Jesus Christ our Lord preaching empty self righteous
rhetoric when dining with prostitutes and tax collectors etc...
We need to be REAL to the lost out there.. If Amy is singing stuff that
the Lost will listen to, and then maybe enjoy so much that they get into
some of her other more worshipful songs, then surely that is a great
witness??


>I am not judging her, I have enough in my own walk to judge.
>I am just pointing out that she is lukewarm in a few areas.
>
Your pointing out that she is lukewarm IS infact judging her... be careful!

>Ian Wylie
>University of Dundee
>Scotland
>E-mail iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
>



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:41:43 +0000
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 1/11

MAN: "If you cannot do even the little things ..." (Luke 12:26).

GOD: "God can do all things" (Matthew 19:26).

"In my mind, I am happy with God's law.  But I see another law working in my
body.  That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts.  That other
law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner.
What a miserable man I am!  Who will save me from this body that brings me
death?  God will.  I thank him for saving me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (
Romans 7:22-25).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used
by permission.
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