From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: On the nature of armor and too light blows
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 16:08:38 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <921223154916_71431.167_EHJ38-1@CompuServe.COM> 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG) writes:
>Carolus wrote: "I took some old worn-out boiled leather armour, set it
>   up on a post, and had one of the strongest heavy fighters I know
>   swing at it with a real sword.  Of 5 blows, all of which would have
>   been termed 'excessive' in force, only one completely cut the
>   leather."
>
>I take it that this means you feel we swing too light across the board
>and even our heaviest blows would not have done 'real' damage.  IF you
>are intersted in a *real* test, put your self in that armour and let
>the same guy swing the same blows at you.  My guess, because I'm not
>stupid enough to try this, is that even when the leather is not cut, 
>your body underneth the armour will suffer crippling damage.

It could mean a number of things. My first impulse is that the
sword was not properly sharpened. My second impulse is that
as, you point out, the armour need not be pierced for
damege to result. 

I am extremely interested in a *real* test, and am planning
serious investigation of what constitutes a real "good"
blow, and comparing that to an SCA "good" blow.

My hypothesis is that we probably *average* hard enough,
but that many people hit far to lightly to damage, and many
hit heavier than they need to.

It is obvious that you do not feel this research to be of
use. Why not?

>Carolus also wrote: "The problem is that *very* light blows...can be
>   delivered using techniques which could simply *not* be "pumped up" 
>   enough to damage through armour.  ...Because all of the body
>   language the attacker shows in blow development is absent, the
>   little wrist flick blow can often be landed with ridiculous
>   ease...Thus is we start taking such blows as "good", we have gone
>   (even farther) from practicing medieval combat to practicing "tag" 
>   with sticks."
>
>First I would like to take except with the concept that the body
>language of the attacker is NOT an indication of blow force. 

No, but the body language of the attacker is one of the many
indicators that form the gestalt of 'blow delivery'. No spectator
can accurately judge blow force, but *any* knowledgable spectator
can tell when a blow is begun.

>I rarely show any body language when I start my attacks.  This is
>deliberate, and has taken years of practice. Only my opponents can tell
>you if my blows are good enough.  

All good fighters try to mask (or decieve with) their body
language. Nevertheless, if you simply saber at me, you will have
an awfully hard time getting any force into your blows.


When we start evaluating blows by any
>method other than how hard they land, we open a can of worms that IMHO
>will cause more problems that it solves.

Agreed absolutely...Which is why, in my opinion, we need a
standard and quantifiable system for determining how hard
we need to hit. I'd like to see that system related, if possible,
to the objective reality of combat.


>There are such things as light blows.  But I believe that they are the
>exception rather than the rule.  Calling a blow light does little to
>increase your skill as a fighter.  If a fighter finds themself calling
>more blows light than good, it might be an indication that the problem
>is with the fighter, not the guy throwing the shots.

Frequently such a consideration is in order. Frequently, however,
a blow which is light is simply that, too light to count. The
armour was worn for a reason: to shed blows, and require an
opponent to hit you aharder to damage, giving you an advantage
(until he got equal armour, of course)

>BTW if you are really interested in kicking, shield bashing, 
>grappling, striking from behind and all those other *real* combat
>tactics, there is a group out this direction call the Tuchux.  Maybe
>you should look them up.

You know, this sounds like a request to go away. Perhaps it's
not.

Milord, I didn't ask *you* to participate in such a
specialization of combat. I certainly am not going to
force you to. Accordingly, maybe you should live and let
live?

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca