HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: opinion elites
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:31:04 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1993Jan9.1777.22303@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>Re: Western opinion elites and Israel: perhaps I should have used
>the word "privately" rather than "secretly." What Western opinion
>elites are saying about Israel publicly can be easily discerned
>by consulting the appropriate books and journals. What they are
>saying publicly is none too positive or friendly these days. What
>they are saying about Israel privately is much harsher. 

Please tell us Wayne, which members of the Western opinion elites you
are privledged to report on?

>With regard to the rosy economic forecasts for Israel: it's all
>bullshit until Israel gets off the American dole and stands on
>its own two feet like any other normal Western democratic nation:
>England, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, you name it. 

Are we referring to the same England, France and Denmark who the US
spent hundereds of billions of dollars yearly to protect through the
cold war?  Somehow that massive millitary budget seems not to be a
"dole" in your eyes, despite the fact that without the US army to
protect them, each of those countries would be in much worse shape.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:57:24 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1igmjjINN660@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
~
~In a previous article, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) says:
~
~>In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
~>~
~>~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
~>~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
~>~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
~>~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
~>~ 
~>
~>You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
~>are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
~>have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
~>exposes your prejudices.
~
~As they were refugees in occupied territory still considered at war

Considered by whom? Does this mean that the Israelis treat Palestinians as
prisoners of war, allowing access by the Red Cross etc.? I think not.



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 04:10:35 GMT

In article <4882@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>We cannot speculate on the surrounding circumstances, and it is a feeble
>excuse to suggest that she somehow deserved to be shot to death because
>of the environment that she was in.  The point is that Israeli soldiers
>have no mercy even when it comes to focusing their rath on little girls.

Just "no mercy" is prasing them.  Ruthless criminals is more like it.

Thank GOd we have memories to use when push comes to shuv.

jle


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: talk
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:37:40 GMT


In article <1993Jan6.1777.22118@channel1>, wayne.mcguire@channel1.com (wayne mcguire) writes...
>To: Shai Guday
> 
> SG> Quite simply, the Jewish people do not constitute a race.
> 
>I'm afraid there is nothing simple about it.
> 
>Two of the greatest figures in Zionism, Moses Hess and Ze'ev
>Jabotinsky were quite emphatic--strident, in fact--on the point
>that Jews constituted a race. You may have seen the clip I posted
>here in which Jabotinsky--the ideological godfather of Begin and
>Shamir--expounded on the purity of Jewish blood.
> 
>Moses Hess was the intellectual godfather of both Zionism and
>Communism. See his book Rome and Jerusalem, or Isaiah Berlin's
>fine essay on Hess, for the theory that Jews constitute a race.
> 
>Many leading Jews throughout history, including Maimonides, in
>Epistle to Yemen, have promoted the philosophy that Jews
>constitute a race founded on a sacred "seed" which sounds
>remarkably like genes. What is that seed imagery in the Bible all
>about, anyways? Contemporary sociobiologists would have a field
>day in interpreting it.
> 
>If Jews themselves are so confused and divided on these issues,
>it is not surprising that non-Jews are also.
> 
>I imagine it would be quite easy for Palestinians who have been
>victimized by Zionism to see it as a racist movement,
>particularly when they have demagogues like Meir Kahane striding
>through their neighborhoods and calling them Arab dogs.
>---
> ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ Here comes the hypercomputing tidal wave!
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

	How do you explain the fact that all of the above mentioned
	people would have agreed that anybody  of any race can convert to
	Judaism and will be considered a full-fledged Jew?  What an
	interesting way to change one's race!
	
	No educated Jew thinks that the Jews are a race in the accepted
	scientific terminology.  That is a theory originated by
	anti-Semites.  HOWEVER - there is another meaning for the term
	race -
	
	race n. ... 2. A group of people united by a common history,
	nationality, or tradition. ...
	(The American Heritage Dictionary - second college edition)
	
	By that definition, the Jews are a race. So are the Americans,
	French and Arabs.
	
-Itzhak
From: drori@gumby.Altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:01:46 GMT
Reply-To: drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

#In article <1993Jan4.143752.11720@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il fedimit@wisipc.weizman
#n.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
#   And how do you call yourself? "Palestinians", which means
#"occupants" on Hebrew?
# XXXXXXXXX

Dan

You probably meant occupiers.


Plishtim in Hebrew means "the invaders". The names Palestine and
Palestinians are derived from Plishtim the people, or Pleshet the area
in which they lived. (approximatly where the Gaza strip is today.)

And to close another on going argument: The idea of throwing the
Jews into the sea belongs to the Prime minister of Iraq from 1948.
I posted the quote a couple of years ago..

Gigi
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25119 soc.culture.turkish:14067 soc.culture.soviet:12008
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "Zeleny"s Armenian friend.
Date: 11 Jan 93 05:05:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan11.000550.19180
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <9301101921@zuma.UUCP> 
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>In article <1993Jan10.170800.19167@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>>>B.C.E.  To cite an Armenian friend of mine, at the time our ancestors
>>>>built their temples, the ancestors of the Slavs were sitting in the
>>>>trees, and spitting at each other.  Of course, he said it in Russian.

SA:
>>>It boggles the mind, doesn't it? 

MZ:
>>Not really.  I believe that the only reason he did not say the same
>>thing about the ancestors of the Turks, is because they had descended
>>from the trees, if only to cornhole each other.  I refer the literate
>>members (ho hum) of my audience to T.E.Lawrence's account of the
>>preponderance of anal venereal infections among the captured Turkish
>>soldiers.

SA:
>And one quick glance confirmed my worst expectations. The small creature
>is alive and looks for adventure. Your anti-Turkish propaganda is nothing 
>but the typical misleading and unending Armenian cry bent upon the immense 
>of little boys trying to wear boots too large for their size.

Aww, you're just jealous 'cause they won't have anything to do with
your long-suffering syphilitic butt.

>[...]

>Poor "Zeleny".
>
>Serdar Argic

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes."
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 16:57:43 GMT

In article <1483500318@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>It is claimed that Judaism is not racist, because non-Jews (Gentiles)
>can convert to Judaism. This is only partly true, because the Jewish
>rabbinical authorities are not very fond of converting Gentiles to Jews.
>In fact conversion is a quite complicated process which requires
>the person who converts to study the Jewish religion and accept
>wholeheartedly its principles. A person born to a Jewish mother
>however is not required to prove his faith. He may eat pork, and
>violate all 613 Halakha precepts. But the rabbis consider him a Jew
>nevertheless because of biological descent.

This is true for nearly all religions.  Most Muslims and Christians I
know do not follow all or even most of the rules and laws or their
religion.  Most Muslims I know drink, sleep around, rarely go to the
mosque or pray, don't fast during Ramadan, and some even eat pork.
All these people, however, call themselves Muslims.
 
Same goes for nearly every single Christian I've met .  The people I know
who do follow their religion strictly are converts or just recently had
some kind of religious enlightenment.  And even these people only follow
the religion strictly when it suits them.
 
 
>Thanks,
>Elias

Keren

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Correction (Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:20:18 GMT

jle@locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
## 
### I had a chance to get a first hand view at rock throwing techniques
### developed in the Daharia camp. 
##                   ^^^^^^^
##Ooops sorry, that should be Dhaeisha.
#
#FUNNY. YOU THINK YOU ARE REALLY FUNNY?  YOU WISH SYMPATHY ON
#THE HOLLOCOAST (sp?) CRIMES, BUT YOU MAKE FUN OF CRIMES DONE TO
#THOSE MUJAHIDS.

Ach, John, John. I just posted congratulations to you on the net,
and you give me this cold shower.

Anyway, I have no idea what you are talking about. "Daharia" and
"Dhaeisha" are two distinct refugee camps (the first is more
to the south, the second closer to Jerusalem). I just mixed the
names, no harm or insult was intended.

#TAKBIR.

Ma she'ata omer, habibi.

-Danny Keren.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24952 soc.culture.arabic:6339 soc.culture.lebanon:5506 soc.culture.afghanistan:1557 soc.culture.pakistan:19282 soc.culture.jewish:24728
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Leaving
Date: 7 Jan 1993 18:42:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


>
>From: John Elghani <nkjle@devnet.la.locus.com>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:42:25 -0800 (PST)
>-----------------------
>
>Well,
>
>This is my last email on the net due to connection loss.  For everyone 
>that I've allied or battled with, have a good life.  I'll miss
>all of you, I'll miss reminding all of you of the fact that 
>Palestine is a stolen land, and Israel is illegally established 
>on that land, and justice shall prevail Insha`ALLAH.  
>
>REMINDER TO ALL MUSLIMS:  "WA EDDO LAHOM MASTATATOM MIN QUWWATIN WA MIN RIBAT
>ALKHAIL TORHIBOONA BIHI ADOWWA ALLAHI WA ADOWWAKOM"  SADAQA ALLAH AL AZEEM.

I just can't resist to admit that I like this verse very much.
Excellent reminder...
                   
>
>Special GOOD bye to my confrontors:  Eric Perlman, Jake, Nevo, Tseil,
>Danny Keren, Nora, Elie Wardini, Elie Mourad, ...etc.
>
>Special Good fighting luck to:  Hamza, Mazen, Anisa, Rached, Sandra,
>Khaled, Iliyas Bidra (sp?), Mariam, Rita Houmsy, (Nabeel) ...etc.

We are all going to miss you brother. :(
                                   
>
>I'll be married soon, and I'll be moving back to Lebanon soon too.  WISH ME
>GOOD LUCK.

That is the way to do it.  Go back to where you belong to!
I hope all muslims will do the same, including me. One of
the 4 Kaliphs (don't know the excat one) had once said,
" Humilation is that of leaving homelands and living abroads."

As far as marriage brother:
"Baraka Allho Laka WaBaraka Alika Wa Jama' Binakoma Ala Khir"
Mobarak inshallah!!

I have two recommendations for you:
1- Get kids right a way so we can liberate
   Alaqsa soon.
2- Say Salamo Alikom to all muslims there
   and tell them Aqsa is waiting for you.
                                     
>
>ASSALAMO ALAIKUM and Good Bye.

Walikom Asalam Wr. Wb.
See you in Aqsa mosque, if God wills!
>
>jle

May Allah Be with you....
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bosna_hergoz
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: The UN shows its ugly face to Bosnians
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:23:28 GMT

In a most recent development, Vance asked Bush, Eagleberger and Clinton
not to meet with the Bosnian leader who came to the U.S!

Yesterday on CBC primenews, the UN official was the least symapathetic
with Bosnian women who were raped by the thousands (some of them raped
repeatedly to the point of death).. All she cared about was the fact that
some Bosnian women refused to keep the babies after they were born, I guess
she wanted them to do what the Serb thugs wanted.. Among the participants
she was the most pathetic..

NacKinzy(sp) the Canadian (Sigh!) commander of the UN units was reported
to have participated in the rape of Bosnian women, (It was reported that
Serb thugs brought some girls to him, and that he took them with him somewhere
and they never came back, a lot of talk also was spread about McKinzy's sexual
perversion)...

Bosnians have captured many Russian officials who were helping the Serbs in
their onslaught on Muslims.. The UN had nothing to say about it, they only
wanted to keep the embargo on Bosnians to "prevent the conflict from spreading"
as if it did not already.

In a story about Marcedonia and its conflict with the Greek, there was a side
information (in UPI) about trucks that Marcedonia blocked because of some
conflict about Labels.. Well the trucks were going to SERBIA, the only problem
was the labels. The embargo on Serbia exists only in the minds of the naive.

ENOUGH SAID!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:42:59 CST

In article <1ik4esINN4jt@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
> In article <29974@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> |> 
> |> You're forgetting, Makowsky knows *everything*. There are lots more where he
> |> comes from, that's why they don't need to bother with trials in Israel.
> 
> Sorry to tell you but Makowsky lives in the United States.  As a pro-
> kahanist his views are considered to be no more than fringe views by
> the majority of the Israeli population.  Therefore, your statement
> in regard to Israel is needlessly inflammatory.


	You should not be surprised. It's Jeremy's way of 
	reminding us his obvious ignorance in almost any matter 
	related to mideast affairs. His tendency to sarcastically
	point at others' "knowledge" is a simple manifestation of
	hypocrisy.


 
> -- 
> Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when


Noam

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: "George William Herbert" goes to Washington D.C.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:34:35 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <8569@charon.cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

> > Which bit's wrong 'Mutlu'? Cosar's postmaster@anatolia? Mutlu's his friend?

>No, I think the part that is wrong is that 'Serdar Argic' is a pen name.

Well spoken.

> > Serious case of schizophrenia here folks! You're missing yourself Mutlu??!!

>No, the style of the postings should have convinced you that Hasan B. is no
>longer involved (except perhaps at the programming end).

I think I should give you two dollars.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24689 talk.politics.soviet:10226 soc.history:10541 soc.culture.jewish:24559 soc.culture.turkish:13797
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Rabin (was Re: Deportation of Palestinians)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 14:55:08 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <4847@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
|> 
|> What do we have do go on, Jake, by believing that Rabin actually
|> IS a peacemaker?
|> 
|> Let's see:
|> 
|> 	Did he recognize Palestinian rights and sovereignty?
|> 
|> 	Is he willing to withdraw from the Occupied Territories?
|> 
|> 	Does he wish to improve the living conditions of Palestinians in
|> 	the Territories?
|> 
|> 	Does he call for a reduction of brutality [murder, torture, etc.]
|> 	by Israeli soldiers in the Territories?
|> 
|> 	Does he call for a freeze in settlement building?
|> 
|> 	What exactly is he willing to GIVE to promote peace, security,
|> 	and stability to Palestinians?

Actually, I thought it might be best to clarify some things about Rabin.
His political stand has always been conservative, as some of you may recall
during the Likud/Labor coalition.  He also posesses a "black or white"
mentality, which does not accept grey areas.

Some of you might remember that one of his first actions when he took office
was to release over 100 detainees, with no conditions being made, as an act
of goodwill.  That was his version of the "carrot".  Once that didn't lead
anywhere, he brought out the mass deportation "stick".

On another note, an unconnected thought that struck me was that things
would be so much easier for all if both groups had an understanding of the
limitations and constraints of the other.  Just as the Israeli gov't can
not expect the Palestinian representatives to agree to all of Israel's
demands because of their own constraints, so should the Palestinian
representatives understand the constraints of the Israeli coalition gov't.
If each side were actually committed to peace instead of the posturing
that they perform, things would go along more smoothly.



-- 
Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer    | confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA           | proceed to dismember them easily.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25186 talk.politics.soviet:10385 soc.culture.greek:12172 soc.culture.europe:11147 soc.history:10667
From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Reply-To: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 06:41:12 GMT


In article <1ifungINNouq@life.ai.mit.edu>, 
gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) writes:

|>
|>In article <1993Jan6.190629.19897@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
|>
|>>A word's meaning is defined by how it is coined and used, not how its
|>>roots define it.  "Inflammable" does not mean "not flammable", nor
|>>does "sycophant" imply a fruit seller (sukon - fig, phantes - to
|>>show).  "Anti-Semite" was coined and has always been understood to
|>>mean "Anti-Jew".
|>
|>Not by the majority of the Semite.  Interesting this fact, no?
|>

	Actually it's not interesting at all. "Anti-Semite" is not a 
	Semitic word so why should "the majority of the Semite" understand 
	it better than Americans and Europeans.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25271 talk.politics.soviet:10413 soc.culture.greek:12191 soc.culture.europe:11165 soc.history:10692 soc.culture.turkish:14189
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:48:04 GMT

(Jeremy Henderson) writes:
#(Danny Keren) writes:

#How is one supposed to tell the difference between, say, Makowsky, who
#supports the deportation, and you, who support the deportation. You may
#give different labels to your views, but the end result is the same for
#the deportees. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . .

Now isn't this an amazing display of both accuracy and logical powers...
First, I have never wrote that I support the deportations. Second, this
labeling of people as belonging to some group just because they
share some opinion. I guess next you will say I am a Kahanist because
both Kahanists and I brush our teeth in the morning.

#~Not only is this a complete lie,
#
#I will happily acknowledge that this is a ``complete lie'' when you show
#me evidence of the regret shown by posters at the death of the little girl.

I remember at least two - mine and someone elses. But this is ridiculus,
you assume that anyone who hasn't written he is sorry is happy this
happened. When was the last time some Israel basher expressed regret
when Israeli children were slashed to death by a terrorist?

#Their motives may be different, but the end result is that they support the
#hard-line policy that has prevailed without interuption in Israel, and shows
#no sign of ending with the election of ``Break their bones'' Rabin. This
#policy has brough the peace process to a halt, and has given new heart to
#the people on both sides who see armed struggle as the only way forward. The
#only thing that has been satisfied is the Israeli thirst for vengeance.

True, to an extent. Both sides could do much better to push the peace
process forward.

-Danny Keren.

PS - please, do something about these "~". vi can't replace them. Very
     annoying.