HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Holier Than Thow (was: Rich & Michael)
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:44:41 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com:
:Of all the groups I routinely thumb through from time to time, this has
:got to be worst when it comes to putting people down and being totally
:intolarant of any point of view other than their own. 
:
:I personally think the vast majority of vegans that contribute to this
:group are probably a decent group of people. But there's several 
:individuals in this group that have been very successfull in spending their
:days loading up the bandwidth with their own personal opinions and attacks
:and turning this entire subject into a total joke for the rest of us.

A lot of people try to cut down on flesh in their diets to some extent or
another.  Sometimes they call themselves vegetarians but "only have a
little fish (or poultry or whatever) now and then"; at other times they
themselves are unwillingly labeled vegetarians by those around them.

And every time this comes out, they are subjected to rude diatribes.  The
net argues not with their sensitivity to other living beings, their desire
to have less environmental inpact on this earth, or their wish to live a
healthier life, but rather with the fact that they are not 100.00% squeaky
clean in their eyes.

Which really sucks.  

Like religious bigots, overrighteous vegetarians have no sympathy and
appreciation for people who are trying in their own way to accomplish
similar goals.

MacDougal, whose only flesh intake is the occasional Thanksgiving turkey
and that not even annually, explicitly states that he is NOT a vegetarian.  
He wants to distance himself from the zealots who will be berating someone
who is anything less than their pet idea of perfect, and I understand.
People are always confused when I consistently order only vegetarian meals
but deny being a vegetarian.

On the other hand, it might keep them from trying to server me fatburgers.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

I would not have married Dan Quayle had I not thought he was an equal to me.
                --Marilyn Quayle
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Rainforests and McDonalds
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 05:40:30 GMT

young@serum.kodak.com writes:

>[...]

>The following was printed in the latest issue of the TUFTS UNIVERSITY DIET AND
>NUTRITION LETTER, Vol. 10, No. 4, June 1992:

>	BEEF EATING'S INFLUENCE ON THE ENVIRONMENT

> . . .
>	But contrary to the impression
>	Rifkin creates, some experts believe that the worst of the plunder
>	is over and that the American taste for beef has little impact
>	today on what happens in the tropical rain forests.  Less than one
>	percent of the beef Americans eat is imported from Central and
>	South America, according to the United States Department of
>	Agriculture, and even that small amount is steadily declining.
> . . .

We are going in circles here.  How does this argue against my
point that seemingly small impacts from one perspective
(i.e., "less than 1% of American consumption of beef) still
can have large and devasting effects over time and from the
more relevant perspective of what is actually occuring with
the rain forests in Latin America?

Yes, I believe you posted this before, but so what?  Who are these
"experts" and how about some primary sources?  At least Rifkin
documents his statements with primary sources and therefore I
am more inclined to believe his well-argued case than this 
glib review. 

                                           ted
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Nutritional information
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:58:10 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

dsouza@hplred.HP.COM (Roy D'Souza) wrote:
> cansoori@athena.mit.edu (Christina Ansoorian) / 12:38 am  Aug 12, /
>> don't you know that avocados are absolutely loaded with fat?
> Avocados, like other vegan sources of nutrition contain fatty acids - not
> fat.  An avocado is a fruit - it does not have fat (or muscles or bones..
> etc..)

Here we have two competing senses for the word "fat":

- fat as a kind of tissue: obviously avocados don't have that;

- fat as a chemical designation, meaning fatty acids/glycerides/lipids
  (this one is often refined to call "fat" only those compounds that
  are solid at room temperature, the others being called "oils");

with the link between them being that fat-1 is mostly made of fat-2s.

Your ethical system is likely to be more concerned with fat-1, your
digestive system with fat-2 - your body makes no distinction between
stearic acid derived from plant or animal sources.  In most writing on
nutrition, fat-2 is the relevant sense.


> Furthermore, since avocados are good sources of other nutrients, it may not
> be good advice to tell people to avoid avocados.

A lot of people need to lower their fat intake, and for them eating lots of
avocados isn't a good idea.  Not many vegans will be in this category, but
some will.

A further issue is saturated fat intake: the most highly saturated fat
found in any human diet is a vegetable one, palm oil.  (It's still an
extremely valuable food in large parts of Africa because of its calorific
value and vitamin A content; this far outweighs any circulatory problems it
may cause).  Does anyone know what proportion of avocado fats is saturated/
unsaturated/monounsaturated?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: red_trek@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: nonfat vegan hotdogs
Date: 22 Aug 92 12:00:01 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

I found a hotdog product recently that is vegan, and also
fat free!  It's fairly good.  Only 40 calories per dog.

they're called "Smart dog"s, from Lightlife Foods, Inc.
I found it at the local branch of Fresh Fields.  For more
info (or coupons) on Lightlife foods, contact:

Lightlife Foods, Inc.
PO Box 870
Greenfield, MA 01302
(800) 274-6001
(United States of America)


I also found some really good low-fat soymilk ice cream, called
(I think) "Living lightly".  A little less than 10% of the calories
 come from fat.

Speaking of fat content, I never saw any replies posted to that
query about where in the world we can find some decent nonfat
soymilk??  Like the person who posted, the best I've been able
to find is 2% fat soymilk from Edensoy and 1% from vitasoy
(both about 13-20%  calories from fat, though, depending on
flavor etc, so it's roughly like drinking 2% cow milk).  Does
ANY one have a magic source of nonfat soymilk??

--Andrea
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:42:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.043831.8442@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug22.002632.494@btcs.bt.co.uk> traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>I may have mentioned this before but anyway; my father is a highly
>>regarded specialist physician. He specialises in gastroenterology.
>>He also has had 18 inches of his intestine cut out due to
>>diverticulitis which he failed to diagnose. So much for western
>>medicine. So much for gastroenterology.
>>
>Well, YOU should have more respect for your father.

I am the healthy one, he is the ill one. Why should I respect his
narrow (western) medical biased perspective?

>On the other hand,
>I would say he had a fool for a patient.  It certainly doesn't say anything
>about western medicine or gastroenterology.

You should have more respect for my father.

>Diverticulitis may be minimised by a high-fiber diet (epidemiological
>studies tell us this) and regular exercise.  However, there is also the
>matter of genetic predisposition.  Some people are going to get diverticulitis
>no matter what.  Needless to say, there is no reason to think that one of
>these "colon cleansing" regimens is going to help such a person.  It's as
>likely that they could aggravate the syndrome.

Don't cheat Steve. A high-fiber diet can also exacerbate diverticulitis.

I have not said that colon-cleansing would help anyone with diverticulitis.
It would help if you read what was said rather than making up replies to
non existent statements.

Colon cleansing may be effective in preventing the formation of
diverticulosis.


-- 
Michael Traub
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: matt@centerline.com (Matt Landau)
Subject: Re: Rec.food.veg's health warning.
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 06:28:02 GMT

In <altar.714547739@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:
>What you called a "sarcasm" is still a rude remark.  Michael Traub
>presented a reasonable proposal to the real problem of flaming
>and rude interjections by some defensive ominvores who are not able
>to make a postive contribution.  

Let us remember that "flaming and rude interjections" are not the
exclusive province of omnivores on rec.food.veg, and let us remember
that a little tolerance on both sides goes a long way.  I personally
respect the intensity with which Michael Traub holds his beliefs, 
even if I don't share all of those beliefs.  

But any objective reader of rec.food.veg would have to conclude that
Michael can be just as rude and abusive as any omnivore in his writings,
both publicly and in private email.  

Admiting that doesn't make me a "Rich-lover" (I've found plenty to disagree
with in both the style and the substance of some of Rich Young's postings,
and some of Steve Dyer's postings, and I'm sure they'd say the same of me)
and it doesn't mean that I'm attacking Michael or think his brand of
veganism is in any way wrong, however much I may disagree with his wish to
silence other voices in this newsgroup -- it just makes me someone who
recognizes that there are no real angels and no real devils, just a
continuum of opinions expressed by varying people with varying degrees of
tact.  

If everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, were to exercise just a little patience
and tolerance, even with opposing viewpoints of viewpoints they consider
just plain silly, things would probably be a lot more pleasant.  It IS,
after all, possible to disagree with (even argue or debate with) someone
without descending into the kind of thing that's littered this newsgroup
for the past two or three months.

Unfortunately, the flaming, unsubstantiated allegations, and name-calling
from omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans alike has over the past couple of
months reduced rec.food.veg to little more than a series of adolescent
shouting matches.  That's sad -- I used to look forward to reading this
group for interesting recipes and factual information ... now it's just
become a source of cynical amusement to see who's flaming who today.

What a waste.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Stephen C. Miller)
Subject: Eggplants, mushrooms, Chinese style
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:06:48 GMT

Hum-te-dum.

Sitting around at work, bored.  Wondering, what will I make for dinner
tonight?  Then I remmeber:  I bought an eggplant yesterday and have some
dried shitakes and some hot peppers and green peppers.  Wonder what
they'll looks like Chinese style.

Hmm..

Anybody have some ideas about saucing this one, and perhaps suggestions
for a few more ingredients?


-- 
--------------------
=
(former rock star turned grad student)
Steve Miller	 		    stcmille@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: uad1214@dircon.co.uk (Peter Cox)
Subject: Re: Hamburger disease kills girl
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 13:27:54 GMT

anne@cs.UAlberta.CA (Anne J.R. Nield) writes:

>jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>
>
>>Please.  It is easier to get revolting kinds of food poisoning from meat than
>>vegetable products, but where vegetable products are handled in similar ways
>>to meat similar results can follow.  I'll spare you the details of my bout of
>>gastric spasms from an impeccably vegan wholefood item produced by the local
>>veggie bakery.
>
>Yes -- I was interested to find out that cooked beans (ie, chickpeas in
>hummus) can produce horrendous stuff too.  Don't know exactly what, not
>being an expert on all this -- but I was told it is VERY important to
>keep them refrigerated.  Interesting....  I've never had any such problems.
>Definitely due to LUCK rather than being well informed, in this case!!
> 
>
>Anne
>
I haven't heard this about chickpeas (garbanzos), but
I'd never cook them and not use them immediately, 
simply because they harden up and the taste disappears.

I've been eating chickpeas several times a week for many years,
with absolutely no problems.  But I'd advise that they should
always be well cooked (i.e. pressure cooked).  A good
test is the "tongue test" - if you can squish them easily
inside your mouth, just using "normal" tongue pressure,
then they're OK.  Many restaurants don't seem to cook them
to this exten - the result:  GAS!
-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Peter Cox
uad1214@dircon.co.uk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: Re: Rec.food.veg's health warning.
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 00:24:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.184904.2311@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>Well, if you stopped posting all together the problem would be
>solved rather neatly.

Ok Mr. Dyer I shall stop posting. I'm sure rec.food.veg readers would
prefer to listen to Mr. Steve 'nonsense' Dyer than me. You provide
such useful input to this forum.

Goodbye for now,



-- 
Michael Traub
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: young@serum.kodak.com
Subject: Re: Nutritional information
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 20:03:41 GMT

In article <8660020@hplred.HP.COM> dsouza@hplred.HP.COM (Roy D'Souza) writes:

>>/ hplred:rec.food.veg / young@serum.kodak.com /  5:44 am  Aug 15, 1992 /
>>>Does anyone know what proportion of avocado fats is saturated/
>>>unsaturated/monounsaturated?
>>
>>   According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture:
>>
>>	1 California avocado (173 grams without skin and seed) contains:
>>
>>	   4.5 grams of saturated fat
>>	   19.4 grams of mono-unsaturated fat
>>	   3.5 grams of poly-unsaturated fat
>>
>>	1 Florida avocado (304 grams without skin and seed) contains:
>>
>>	   5.3 grams of saturated fat
>>	   14.8 grams of mono-unsaturated fat
>>	   4.5 grams of poly-unsaturated fat
>>
>
>Based on Rich's numbers:
>
>A california avocado contains 27.4 grams in fat (27.4 * 9 = 246.6 calories)
>out of a total of 173 grams ((27.4 * 9) + ((173 - 27.4) *4)) = 829 calories.)
>Hence, in a California avocado, the percentage of fat by weight is 16%, and
>the percentage of fat calories is 30%.
>In a Florida avocado, using these same calculations, the percentage of fat
>by weight is 8% (or by calories is 17%.)

	Had I known what you were planning to do with the numbers, I'd have
	supplied the rest:

	According to the same USDA source of information, the two types of
	avocado analyze as follows:

	California:

		30 grams of fat (It doesn't add up, I know...there must be
				   other components not accounted for by the
				   three fatty acid categories above.)

		4 grams of protein
		12 grams of carbohydrate

	Florida:

		27 grams of fat
		5 grams of protein
		27 grams of carbohydrate


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegan dilemma concerning pancreatic enzymes.
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:56:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug20.185641.27886
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <matt.714333448@centerline.com> matt@centerline.com (Matt Landau) writes:
>Actually, there is a medical condition (whose name I forget, but which I 
>distinctly recall reading about in the last couple of months) in which
>small "pockets" can form in the lining of the colon, trapping partially
>digested foods.  I don't recall offhand exactly how these pockets form,
>but if they persist for long enough they can trap enough foreign matter
>to lead to some pretty unpleasant bacterial infections.  In severe cases,
>they may abcess and bleed into the colon.

Diverticulosis (the condition), which can progress to diverticulitis
(imflammation of same).

>I believe the usual treatment is minor surgery to either untangle or tie
>off and remove the pockets.  I don't recall ever hearing anything one 
>way or the other about the effect of diet on this condition, or whether
>anyone has suggested a dietary or drug-based treatment program.

The only preventative and maintenance therapy is a fiber rich diet,
which over time increases colonic tone and reduces pressure on
the colon wall.  Treatment is conservative except in the case of
active bleeding and infection, which may require surgery.  I don't
think there's any hope of touching the pockets themselves--there are
usually too many of them, and they reflect an underlying problem (the
colonic equivalent of a tire with a bubble in it.)

I am aware that psyllium fiber is used in some of these colon cleansing
regimens.  Nothing the matter with psyllium (it's called a laxative, but it's
simply a laxative via its bulk-forming actions.)  Active, symptomatic
diverticulitis shouldn't be given anything like that; that needs to
wait until the problem has remitted somewhat.

>Does anyone recall the name of this condition?  I'd like to hit the
>books and see if I can't dig up the current thinking on its cause and
>treatment.

Should be roughly what I said here.

>By the way, this may or may not have been what M. Traub was talking 
>about in his original article.  I wouldn't know, since I didn't read it.

Traub didn't write the original article.  In any case, many advocates
of colon cleansing tend to use imagery which leads you to think of
dried feces as a kind of spackling compound pressed against the colon
walls, which needs to be removed of course.  It's an arresting image,
but it doesn't exist.

>Welcome to the ranks of the "Rich-lovers", Steve.  (I believe that's
>what Michael called me the last time I presumed to disagree with him
>on the role of tolerance in rec.food.veg :-)  Gee, and I'm not even
>a meat-eater :-)

It seems to be a badge of honor.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: traub@btcs.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Subject: RECIPE: (VEGAN) Soya Burgers
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:54:51 GMT
Keywords: burger, vegetarian

SOYA BURGERS
============

1/4 pound	soya beans, soaked overnight and boiled for one hour
1		vegetable stock cube
1 tablespoon	tomato puree
1		onion (minced)
1 tablespoon	soya flour
2 tablespoons	vegetable oil
a pinch		mixed herbs
1		chilli (optional)
to taste	salt and pepper
some		water
2 teaspoons	EnerG egg replacer

Mash the soya beans throughly, mix all the ingredients in except the
soya flour and the stock cube. Make a thick gravy with soya flour and
the stock cube. Blend the gravy with the other ingredients. Form into
burgers (preferably using a burger press), and fry till golden.

I haven't made this recipe for many years as I have succumbed to using
a packet mix. I hope I have remembered the ingredients correctly!


-- 
Michael Traub
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: BST
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 05:34:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.000754.17845@silma.com> sj@silma.com (Suzanne) writes:
>I just heard a news story that said BST has been legal since
>'85, and that the FDA is now being asked to withdraw certification.

BTW, BST == "bovine somatotropin", or "bovine growth hormone".
In dairy cows, the effect of administering this is not to
increase lean body mass, but to increase milk production.

>Is this true?  If so, I'm surprised that I haven't seen BST-free
>dairy products marketed in health food stores.

The stuff hasn't been used widely at all.  First, there's a milk glut;
there's no economic incentive to use a substance which would drive down
prices even more.  Second, there are state regulators which have a role in
approving its use.  Both economic and safety issues have held up its
use in many states.

I believe the GAO (General Accounting Office) or some other peculiar
federal bureaucratic organization stepped in with health concerns.
What the GAO has to do with this, I don't know, but they often play
a gadfly role.  I believe one of their points was that since BST can
increase the incidence of mastitis (an infection of the teats), thus
increasing antibiotic use, there haven't been any tests as to whether
milk from BST-treated herds have higher antibiotic residues in their milk.
(I can't comment on the veracity of that assertion one way or another.)

The concern around BST being present as a residue in milk seems
pretty far-fetched.  BST is a natural hormone, and is expected to
appear in some pico-molar quantities in milk anyway, at levels far
far beneath any chance of biological activity.  Plus, such a hormone
needs to be injected to have any effect--these peptide hormones are
digested in the gut.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: krissie@locus.com (Krissie Griffiths)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Yves Burger Burgers
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:29:13 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California

In article <1992Aug17.103243.2422@newstand.syr.edu> jfrawley@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Judy Frawley) writes:
>
>Question about the Wieners and Deli Slices.  I am on a very low-fat
>diet (recently).  I wonder if you might have info on these.  What
>I am looking for is serving size, calories, grams of fat per serving	
>and if there is any breakdown of saturated fat, monounsaturated, and
>polyunsaturated.
>
the hot dogs have i believe 5 grams per dog, the deli slices are i think
4 grams per serving.  i am not sure if that is 4 grams per slice, and if so,
i vote it to be a VERY high fat food considering it is only one slice.

the burger burgers are also 5 grams per burger.  as for breakdown, maybe,
but not sure.  i just read the package this weekend, and there is info on
both sides, so quite possibly.

kg
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: cpr4k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Christian P. Roberts)
Subject:  Yves Burger Burgers
Reply-To: cpr4k@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Christian P. Roberts)
Organization: Academic Computing Center - U.Va.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:57:03 GMT


Several folks have raved about Yves Burger Burgers, and I 
recall a posting that gave the company that makes them, its 
address, and telephone number ... Anyone have a copy of that, 
or have the information handy?  I'd like to make a request 
for them at our local store, and it would help to be able 
to give them that info.

Thanks.
--

Chris Roberts                     Academic Computing Center
cpr4k@virginia.edu                University of Virginia           
(804) 982-4693                    Charlottesville, Virginia 22903
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg