HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NYC PD Transit shooting
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:29 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <9211220323.aa29553@dec4ie.ieunet.ie>, jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:
# 
# 	 17 shots and only 3 Hits!!!!  In the middle of NYC?  Where did those
# 	 other 14 rounds go?  Their lucky they didn't have 14 dead civilians
# 	 laying out on the street afterwards!  Send these guys back to the
# 	 Academy.  Better yet, make them take a NRA basic handgun class.
# 
# Umm, or better yet, off the force altogether.  This kind of gunplay is
# simply ridiculous and the phrase "unacceptable conduct" doesn't go far
# enough..

These officers are going to get armchaired to death and this is a good example
of what they will get to deal with for a while.  The only information I have
seen on it has been the initial article by AP.  From what it sounds, it was
just a tragic mistake, not some sort of wild gunplay.  Like I have said before
in this group, this thing happens unfortunately and goes to show how important
pre-raid briefings and inter-unit/inter-agency co-ordination.  I suspect this
incident was preventable, but I'm not going to sit back and pass judgement on
some people in a very stressfull situation who only had a couple seconds to
make a life and death decision.   I would encourage others to follow suit.


# 
# 				Jordan

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: hhtra@usho21.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:46 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <199211171713.AA28975@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
|> In article <7624CA0F00001A29@UALR.EDU> hudson@ualr.edu writes:
|> |> #BTW  They also have a choice in rifles of a Ruger Mini-14 or the Colt  AR15
|> 
|> This is an interesting choice. I always wonder when would one pick his
|> rifle for defense purpose, assuming he is a regular citizen and he has
|> other choices like handguns and shotguns. ( Noting the plural nouns ;)
|> 
|> I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
|> use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

 They'd might choose a rifle if they couldn't handle the recoil of a
 shotgun or develop good handgun skills.  I had a friend while in the
 Marines who could barely qualify with the .45 but could shoot lights
 out with the M-14 and M-16.

 Any scenario with the requirement for high power, accuracy, and/or 
 high capacity.  30 rd mags of 9mm or .45 are damn heavy.

 TRAVIS
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:32:15 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <13197@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
[ description of modifying Colt magazines deleted ]
#Not any more.  Colt changed them to be riveted in place.  It's a shame,
#but at least this way, they don't sell a high capacity assault weapon.

The riveted Colt magazine that I dissected simply required the drilling of
the rivet (a .120 diameter drill fits well).  With the rivet gone, the
magazine can be disassembled and cleaned and if you so desire the
U-shaped block can be omitted.  If you save the block then you could
restore the magazine to a 5-round capacity if the need arises.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:32:36 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <7624CA0F00001A29@UALR.EDU> hudson@ualr.edu writes:
#...
#BTW  They also have a choice in rifles of a Ruger Mini-14 or the Colt  AR15
#(which would you choose?).

This is an interesting choice. I always wonder when would one pick his
rifle for defense purpose, assuming he is a regular citizen and he has
other choices like handguns and shotguns. ( Noting the plural nouns ;)

When I took an AR15 shooting class from a cop, he told me the regular
stuff: I wish you would never have to use it for self-defense purpose.....
I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:53 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <01GR8CF9OIQC000CUC@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU> KEVIN@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte) writes:
#In the military they used menomic of S.A.L.U.T.E.
#Size, Activity, Location, Unit, T???, Equipment

T = Time, this is a good thing to remember as well.

[Three years out myself and amazed I still remember!]

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Smith & Wesson Model 3913
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:14 GMT


[posting for Gerry Attilio]


     I was looking for any comments, concerns or recommendations regarding
the Smith & Wesson Model 3913.  I am considering it for concealed carry,
it's double action, comes in stainless, it is relatively lightweight (approx
26 oz.) and is about as compact as any 9mm I have seen so far.

TIA,
  Gerry

--

Gerry Attilio                   205-730-3756            Intergraph Corporation
gja@gja.b30.ingr.com                                 Huntsville, Al 35894-0001
                                                            Mail Stop:  GD3002
From: wixer!wixer.cactus.org!will@cs.utexas.edu (Bill Staniewicz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Single-action police sidearm
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:46 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications

I dont recall where I read this, but
I understand there is currently a police
department in a small community that issues
single-action sidearms to their officers. I
am not sure if this is "standard" issue for
that department or whether it is just an option.

Has anyone else heard about this?

-- 
Bill
will@wixer.cactus.org
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: firearms business
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:27 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation


Does anyone know what kind hassles/paperwork/licenses/restrictions
are involved to set up a business in Canada to sell ammunition and/or
firearms & related stuff??

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What to buy....
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:26 GMT


I plan to acquire a Steyr 9mm SPP as soon as they become available,
probably in mid-December. I don't count on them being available
for long after the new Administration takes over. I really can't
afford it, but the bitter lesson I learned with the FA MAS and the
Bush import ban is that if you don't buy it NOW you may NEVER get
the chance again, especially if it's uncommon.

Others have posted that the SKS may be banned. I can see removal of
the bayonet, but with the full wood stock and 10 round magazine it
looks like a nice, tame "sporting rifle", and not really "ban-able".

As to ammunition, is an import ban really likely? I mean, who's to
say what firearms the ammunition is intended for. China Sports' .223
works just as well in a Model 70 as in an AR-15, and Egyptian surplus
9mm is for 8 shot P-38s as well as 32 shot semiUzis. .30 Carbine is
used almost exclusively in that firearm, but it's an "all American"
gun, even allowed in NJ. The best case could be made for 7.62x39,
but that's used in the Mini-30 and a growing number of bolt actions.
I'd rather not spend money on ammo now, but if the alternative is
new factory ammo....


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 7.62 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokarev & the CZ-52
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:22 GMT



Donald R. Newcomb writes:
#I'm thinking of adding a CZ-52 pistol to my collection. This piece, as I
#understand, fires a high-power version of the 7.62 Tokarev round. I am
#not exactly clear on what is required to reload for this gun. "Cartridges
#of the World" seems to indicate that the Tokarev is just a different
#loading of the 7.62 Mauser. Would I just use 7.62 Mauser dies and brass
#to load for the CZ-52?


While there are allegedly some dimensional differences, you can indeed
use the 7.63mm Mauser dies to load Tokarev ammo. The difference is in
the power level, with the Mauser load being weakest, the Tokarev hotter,
and the Czech M48 hotter still. The Czech load gets about 100 ft/s more
than the Tokarev with the same bullet.

My Vz 52 will feed and fire all three ammo types. I can't tell which
it likes best, because it has a disconnector problem (hammer is cocked
but trigger pull is as if it's not - no bang!) that's intermittent and
exceedingly annoying. When I get some money I'm having the excellent
local smith work on it, and I plan to have him set it up for good
function with my Sov surplus Tokarev ammo.

As an aside, the Vz 52 feels really good in my rather large hands, and
my piece is quite accurate. One quirk which I and my fellow Vz 52
owner friends have noticed is that while cycling the motion of the
trigger returning to "ready-to-fire" is very violent, and begins to
hurt the index finger after only a few rounds. Gloves are recommended,
and the trigger guard is large enough for them.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Deer hunting accident with shotgun?
Date: 15 Nov 92 14:28:18 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL


# Are deer typically hunted with a shotgun? A story in
# the NY Times on Thursday reported that a deer hunter
# accidentally killed a jogger with "a single blast"
# from a shotgun. How close would you typically have to
# be from a person to shoot them dead with a shotgun?

Some states actually require shotguns with slugs or buckshot loads to
limit the effective range and make it less likely that someone a mile or
two away is killed. The range for effective hunting is 75 yards for
slugs and 25 yards for buckshot. The NRA firearms Fact Handbook
considers taking shots at greater range unethical hunting. I assume
because it would pose an unacceptable risk of injuring an animal without
killing it. As for an accidental shooting, I would suspect that they
might kill somebody a few hundred yards away.

If somebody was really stupid and fired into the air then the range
would be a lot further. Considering the discussion earlier about a .22
bullet killing a child a mile away under rather freakish conditions,
I doubt that buckshot or slugs would be much less hazardous. I wouldn't
be surprised if a one ounce lead slug could cause a serious head injury
with nothing more than it's terminal velocity.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:13 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <BxuBG5.C8G@world.std.com> lucifer@world.std.com (Kevin S Green) writes:
#In article <1992Nov16.162600.12840@hou.amoco.com> zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
#|I'm going to travel from Houston Texas to St. Louis Missouri and back again.
#|I was wondering what the laws were concerning carrying handguns in/thru the
#|states of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri.  I know that I can carry in Texas while
#|traveling. Any help would be appreciated.
#
#I am moving back to OK in a very short bit so I've been researching
#this very sort of thing. Basically:
#- _NO_ concealed carry at any time
#- You can carry an unloaded firearm in a motor vehicle at any time.
#- I spoke with a State Trooper not long ago that said that I could
#  probably get away with carrying my unloaded pistol(s) in the glove
#  compartment so long as there weren't any loaded magazines nearby.
#  (I wouldn't rely on that though...best to just lock everything up).

I believe that, while the Oklahoma laws don't prohibit this (I oughtta
just go down stairs and check), the Federal regs do. The same section
which allows you to transport firearms unloaded also prohibits you
from transporting it in the glove compartment (Title 18 USCA, Chapter 44,
Section 926A, Interstate Transportation of firearms)

#There are other considerations, but that gives you the jist of it. I
#would recommend getting a copy of the NRA/ILA state law brochures
#for each state you go through.

The state regs are irrelevant; Federal law clearly states that you
can transport your firearms, as long as they are unloaded and either
in a locked case or in a compartment not accessible from the
passenger compartment, and as long as you can legally possess them
at your points of origination and destination. (See the aforementioned
reference for the actual text of the law.)

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	I feel lucky, I feel lucky yeah
	Hey Dwight, Hey Lyle, boys, you don't have to fight,
	Hot dog, I feel lucky tonight
			--Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "I Feel Lucky"
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR parts - which ones to have on hand?
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:33:08 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <Bxtuz7.C0w@SSD.intel.com> cower@SSD.intel.com (Rich Cower) writes:
#
#What parts would you AR experts keep on hand, assuming you couldn't buy
#them in the future? I'd like to keep my HBAR operational, and if I can't
#buy parts...which ones should I purchase now? Which parts have you had
#break? wear out? or just lost in cleaning?

That's a good question--and I'd like to ask a similar one. What parts
should I have spares of for my Mini 14? 



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:45:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: vincent2.viking.721890691
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA


	Jeff Maass mentioned an important point, where if the
intruder just walked away you should say goodbye.  Count yourself
lucky -- it's very unlikely he'll ever come to _your_ house again,
nor will most of his buddies, I suspect.  However, this got me to
thinking (why do people cringe when I say that?)...

	In Omaha, Nebraska a 7-11 store was robbed.  The clerk gave
them the money and then walked outside to get a better view of the
license plate.  He was beaten with a hammer and, get this, fired by
7-11 for attempting to get a plate number!  Sheesh!  Reports from
the police were very sketchy as to what the subjects were wearing,
distinguishing features, and the like, and this from a guy who has
stood face-to-face with the punks.

	I happened to be walking to the Kwik Shop for something the
other night, and witnessed a drive-off.  The police were called, and I
gave them a description of the car, driver, plate number, and the
like.  I mentioned she was 5'7", blonde hair just past the shoulders,
parted in the middle and lying flat, black dress, black heels, red
lipstick, driving a post-85 Toyota Tercel with one running light
out that was a light blue, etc...  The officer was amazed!

	Now, why is that?  I submit it's because we don't pay enough
attention to our surroundings.  Granted, she was worth more than
the cursory glance, but whether we're hunting or walking about, are
there any exercises of a mental nature that we could do in order to
notice the details more than normal?

	I'm sure police and security types go through some sort of
training in this identification and recall procedure.  Any of you
care to clue us in?  I'd like to think it would not only help the
police to locate the former robber, but also clue us in to what's
wrong with the picture while we're in the woods during deer season.

	Please, this is very borderline for the charter.  Let's keep
it down to the relevant visual stuff.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:22 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

# 	That's the real question, isn't it.  I had the same training, and
# yet I don't see how shooting to stop necessarially means shooting for center
# mass given some very important considerations.  Let's take my grandfather,
# for example.  He's just over 75 years old, rather frail, and can still
# shoot the gnards off a gnat at 1000 meters.  Even with a 4" pistol he
# consistently hits birds on wires at 60 feet.  I, certainly, will shoot
# for center mass.  He can possibly afford to shoot to immobilize and stop,

The rule to remember is that nobody shoots as well under stress as
they do when they're calm. He could be shooting asprin tablets at 100
yards and not be able to hit the broad side of a barn when somebody
is trying to kill him. In a situation like that you're lucky if you've
got control of your sphincters much less your fine muscle coordination.

Remember in real life policemen miss the people they're shooting at
eighty percent of the time. They had to shoot a lot better than that
to qualify.

#       Same here.  However, the object is to shoot to stop.  Certainly
# a shot to the thigh or knee is a shot that stops mobility.  My thought
# is that, if you're afraid of his buddies jumping you, stopping him with
# a shot to the thigh or knee is a stop but not a kill; the specific
# circumstances here could throw the case either way depending on the
# actions of the perp, the shooter, and the DA and jury opinions.

There seem to me to be a few erroneous assumpations here.

1. Shooting somebody in the thigh will immobilize them.
        It isn't obvious to be that a bullet wound in the thigh will
        disable someone, unless you actually hit the thigh bone and
        break it.
2. Shooting somebody in the thigh won't kill them.
        Keep in mind that if you hit a major artery they are going
        to bleed to death in a few minutes.
3. Somebody on the ground poses no threat.
        Unless you've already searched him, the first time your
        attention wanders he pulls out a gun and shoots him.

I hate to think about the civil suit when the perp takes your
grandfather to court for permenently disabling him with a kneecap
shot.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:39:16 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#If the femoral artery is hit, unless there is a trauma surgeon there
#(in tha case of a pelvic hit) on the spot, ready, the person who is

Not always.

One of the local IPSC shooters severed his femoral artery with a .45
(the same gun the previous owner shot himself with a few years earlier!!!).

He was hospitalized for some time, but is doing well now.  (He had to
be rehospitalized some time later because of a post surgical infection).
his leg still isn't "up to what it was before", but he has been told to
expect improvement over time.

No, I won't mention who he is or which Front Site ad is his.

                                        rob b.
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:04:32 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <62013@mimsy.umd.edu> magnum@cs.umd.edu writes:
#			How am I doing?

You're doing fine and I for one much appreciate it.

As a long-time Usenet reader/contributor, I've found that
unmoderated discussion groups too often get out of hand,
with some posters being abusive of others and with lots
of irrelevant junk mail.  Consequently I dropped out of
most of the news groups I had been active in and now
limit my participation to moderated groups only.

I cringe when I hear the word "democracy".  The proper
meaning for that is essentially, strict majority rule.
Thus democracies do not protect the rights of minorities
and especially rights of individuals.  The USA's founding
fathers were well aware of that and attempted to establish
our government as a representative republic, thinking that
the "buffer" of thoughtful, educated men between the
public masses and those potentially affected by government
laws and policies would, in conjunction with a constitution
clearly limiting the sanctioned powers of the various
levels of government, help to protect the rights of all
citizens.  However, decades of control of education by
socialist thinkers has managed to override this worthwhile
original goal, and I do not know if it can be recovered.

Anyway, unmoderated Usenet is not democracy, it's anarchy.