From: SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin)
Subject: Re: Yet another sleepless night
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:41:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.210904.18239@reed.edu>,
turner@reed.edu (Reality sucks) writes:
>"After the last debate I got myself into, I can't believe I'm doing this
>again. *sigh* Somebody stop me quick...no, don't do that." Caithelin turns
>to face Marie and Abner, before she starts she buys them each a drink, just
>to show this isn't personal.

Marie chuckles, "I can relate.  Trust me, no hard feelings.  I
don't always express myself clearly and am sometimes misunderstood.
This time, I'm getting nailed from both sides :-).  But I'll
give it a whirl.  Oh, thanks for the drink -- make mine lemonade."

>In article <1992Jul21.195025.24102@news.iastate.edu> SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul21.051225.11036@cco.caltech.edu>,
>>ajm@wag.caltech.edu (Abner J. Mintz) writes:
>>>Marie writes ...
[stuff deleted, this is getting long, already]
>>>traditional society.  And, as a side-note, I don't think that being male in a
>>I never said men weren't hurt by the views of a male-dominated
>>society.  I'm only saying that I think it's a different problem.
>>Afterall, if men are in control, aren't they in a better position
>>to make changes?
>
>She looks at Marie for a long minute....and shakes her head
>disbelievingly..."Are you honestly of the opinion that women in society have
>no part in shaping that society?  And the standards it adheres to????  That
>they really are mindless and powerless drones (or at least have been until
>recent times?"

Of course not, at least not any more.  But, women really were rather
supressed until relatively recently.  Their husbands were
considered within their rights to beat their wives if they
showed too much independence.  They were under pressure from
both genders to toe the line.  Some of them had understanding
husbands, but were met with immediate social punishment if
they spoke too freely.  Women today have much greater freedom.
Legally, they have nearly all the rights that men have.  But
they still don't have much political power, and are under a
severe handicap in the business world.  Societal prejudices
take more than a decade to change, even if equality exists in
the law books.

Also, women are a product of a male-dominated society, too.
They have been trained, by both genders, to take the meeker role.
In the sense that they didn't throw off such training earlier, women
are also at fault for the present-day inequalities.  But before
women's suffrage (and after), there was a *mountain* of laws and
prejudices to overcome before women could have even a hint
of equality.  Our male dominated society has been around for
hundreds, if not thousands, of years -- it's rather firmly
entrenched.

So I *don't* think women are helpless, mindless drones.  I think
they have more power than they even realize.  It's a bit like
David battling Goliath, where David is growing bigger all the
time, and Goliath is getting less inclined to fight.

Meanwhile, no one seems to disagree that  we live in a
male-dominated society.  My point in replying to Abner's complaints
was that the abuses of men that he mentions are a result of
a male dominated society and that, by definition, a man is
in a better position to make the changes he would like.

>She stops and thinks some more..."I give my gender a little more credit than
>that.  Not that women have always done things that I agree with.  Nor have
>men. Yes right now, men have the overt power.  And that is an unbalanced
>thing and should be changed.  But women have power in other ways, and that
>also is an unbalanced thing and should be changed.... maybe women have less
>power... I'm not sure..."  She stops and grins for a second.  "I can hear
>you about to say: but then why would they put themselves in an oppresive
>situation?  According to the same logic, looking at your earlier line of
>reasoning... why would men?"

Wow, it's really hard for me to read this because my screen only
goes to 78 columns.  So forgive me if I misunderstand something.

What are these "other ways" that women have power?  Sure, they
have been able to influence the men in their lives.  This seems a
bit indirect to me.

Most of Abner's complaints were social in nature -- amounting
to peer pressure.  The legal complaints came about because of
the point of view that the purpose of women is primarily to
make and care for babies.  They should not work outside the
home.  Therefore, they were almost automatically awarded child
custody, and were therefore given alimony and child support.
The first attitude resulted in the unfair treatment of men
in these court decisions.  Of course, until recently, this is
the way it *had* to be, because women were not trained in the
workplace, and men had no idea what to do with babies.  Now,
this situation has become more equal, and therefore the courts
should function on a case by case basis, taking facts into
account and discounting prejudice.  (This is how it should've
been all along, but traditions are hard to overcome.
Abner had a legitimate complaint.)

>"I don't feel like I've said half I mean to... but I think I'll stop now."

That's okay, I've probably said more than I meant to.

>*deep breath* "Not sure how to put it all into words...or even if I have a
>defensible position.  Hmmm... different track slightly... many men today are
>trying to change child custody arrangements so they can get custody and be
>the main parent.  There are definitely a group of women who refuse to give
>this to them, even though they don't want custody.  The reason:  partly a
>power struggle, and partly because other women (and men) would then think
>they were "bad people" since they didn't get custody.  And as far as custody
>goes... it's become a matter of way way overcompensation."

Again, it would be nice if child custody and monetary awards were
decided case by case, based on what is best for the
children, without gender prejudice.  Unfortunately, this is
an emotional issue and, like you said, a power struggle.

--Marie

P.S.  I hope I haven't come off as a bra-burning, man-hating,
knee-jerk feminist.  I *am* a feminist in the sense that I have
learned not to let  chauvinistic actions and comments slide
(not that there has been much of that in this discussion -- I'm
speaking generally).  Many people don't even realize that they
have said something chauvinistic, and some people (men in
particular) have thanked me for pointing this kind of thing
out.  They sincerely want equality, but have their own
socialization to overcome.  (Heck, I find that I have my own
socialization to overcome still, too.)

Don't worry, I don't run around "pointing out chauvinism" during
every waking moment -- I try not to be a pain in the butt about it.
But I just can't let some things slide. :-)

Newsgroups: alt.callahans