HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Peshewegunzh <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>
Subject: Re: Canadian support of Native Americans in US
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 04:16:04 GMT

Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

The same Indian nations exist on both sides of the
European-drawn border between the United States and
Canada (the former remainder of British North America
after the colonial revolt) and thus in principle and
in practice we must find our own unity of greater
importance than how the Europeans have separated
themselves.

The United States has recognized this through the
continuing precedence of the Jay Treaty over U.S.
immigration law with regards to American Indians born
and living on either side of that European political
border.

Therefore, what affects Indians in the United States by
definition affects them in Canada, and vice versa, and is
a proper scope for activity on either side by anyone
interested in helping.

That border is by no means eternal, nor the political entities
sustaining it. As Indian nations we definitely intend to outlive it.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peshewegunzh

peshe%mamia.UUCP@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia.UUCP!peshe
peshe@mamia.UUCP
mthvax!mamia!peshe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: xxbc10@ucrmath.ucr.edu (joannie humphreys)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: okay, mabey this time I can get an article posted
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:50:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Riverside

Hi each and every body out there :-)!
   I've been having troubles posting but I might jjust make it this 
time. I was having a good and nice time in liffe until I began to
think, and an article in here started my thinking...it was about 
the art and such.
   The story...I am 15, I'm sitting in on a CS class so I got ann
acount that way, and news with it, I have now at home a lengthy file
of articles from this newsgroup...I am a frequent reader. But I post
now with a question of deep cconcern to me...What is "indian" ?
   Don't take the question litteraly, I use the word as the common
term for native american. Read it more philisophicly...not so much 
though :-) 
   The reason I ask, is that I've considered myself indian for a good
while now...I'm a wide mix actually, but I hold much pride in my 
native part (Hopi) and am proud to say I am Hopi. But blood wise I 
have't much left in me ffrom that line. (My great-great-grandmother was
the last full blooded native of our ffamily) 
   I did not learn this till my pre-teen years. Somehow my father got on
the subject and it came up, this surprised me, as I was sure I knew all
off my roots and had them in order (family & background are very  
important }ito me) I immediatly bbegan to research this (my father knew
very little) and went full into "Hopi-mode" (as my father ccalled it) I
learned the la}inguage, gathered up and took in the religgons, philosiphies,
~rcustoms and arts. I would vanish into the library for hours, then 
meander off to a bookstore, hear some tapes...anything! (As you have most
likly discovered, I do not lead a normal life :-) my father says I'm a
knowledge sponge (-: ) I took this into the ways of my life in every way
as long as it didn't disturb those around me.
   Now the problem...though I know all this sttuff I can't...how should I
say...apply it. I can speak the Hopi tounge with no one. I cannot do to
he mesas or witness the kachina dances or anything (we definattly don'}i}i{_xD~
have that type of money) I have no record of my specific clan, if I have no
clan I could not even think of any sort of intiation, nothing...nada, in close
relation to my people aside from my head of knowledge (which despit my worries
is still growing :-) ) And that broughtt me to the question...do I have the
right to call myself native american? What does it take to be "indian" ?
I look for answers....
    I hope, then , that someone can help me see other sides in this issue.
I hope for responces.....Joannie (Iisawhoya (-: )

     "Why is it a penny for your thoughts but you have to put your two cents
in? Somebodys making a penny!" 
 
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.native,talk.environment
Subject: Re: ACTIVISM: Mt. Graham Action Alert!!
Date: 27 Jul 92 10:50:13 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Jul25.215541.10751@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (allen lutins) writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.085445.11603@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>In article <Environet.23Jul1992.5pm1@naughty-peahen.org> jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Environet via Jym Dyer) writes:
>>>
>>>Friends of Mt. Graham and the San Carlos Tribal Council have
>>>been active in Washington, DC asking members of Congress to help
>>>halt the telescope project and to protect our mountain.  The
>>
>>Or, if you consider the enormous scientific value of this unique
>>international observatory project, that has minimal environmental
>>impact on a 23 acre portion of Mt. Graham, is worth fighting for,
>
>...how enormous an impact can *another* obervatory have ion a world
>with many of them?

There are damn few good observatories. EVERY one of them has made at
least one major discovery. Currently astronomers can wait for years
for observing time with a major astronomical instrument.

>>Otherwise the hysterical quasi-religious ravings of a few fanatics
>>will destroy this valuable bit of scientific progress.
>
>...your utter disrespect and disregard for those with dissimilar views
>from your own makes me want to puke...how `few' people are involved?
>Probably a whole nation of people who find it difficult to keep from
>being ground under by our culture...

Well that shows how much research you've done into the issue before
spewing off. The so called San Carlos Tribal Council didn't exist
two years ago. And as far as anyone can tell, it consists of eight
people who *claim* to be Apache Indians. The U of A had the permission
of the established Indian tribal councils before it started this
project. First there was a protest by Anglos about the Mt. Graham
Red Squirrel. When it was shown that the observatory would have
no significant impact on the squirrels, which are a slight varient
of the common red squirrel, since it used only 23 acres of the several
square miles of mountain, and when it was discovered that the Mt Graham
squirrel varient also existed on another mountain, this "Tribal Council"
convienently appeared to claim religious status for the 23 acres needed
by the observatory. People with eyes open realize this is just an
eco-terrorist stunt on the order of Earth First! terrorist tactics.

Gary
From: pshinogee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: who is an India?
Date: 31 Jul 92 08:57:24 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Joannie:
I'm 28 years old and I've been dealing with my identity also.
I have lived mostly in urban areas but close to the Pottawatomi
reservation in Kansas.  I look and feel Native American but
there's a part of me that feels like I don't belong in either
world because I don't go to many ceremonies on the rez, nor
am I a Christian.  About two years ago I started looking into
Native American history, trying to find a link. But of course
reading about a people compares nothing to living with a people.
I have a lot to learn and a lot of soul searching to do, but
I am constantly caught. I love being Native American but I
feel that the reservation people may think of me as an apple.
It is tough but I hope that when I die, I have a Pottawatomi
funeral.
Patti Shinogee
-- 
			         /\
			     ____\/____		     
			     |__<<>>__|
			     /=' V '=\
			     \___-___/

The only thing Columbus discovered,
was that he was lost.
			an Osage

Newsgroups: alt.native,talk.environment
From: vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (allen lutins)
Subject: Re: ACTIVISM: Mt. Graham Action Alert!!
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:55:41 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.085445.11603@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>In article <Environet.23Jul1992.5pm1@naughty-peahen.org> jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Environet via Jym Dyer) writes:
>>
>>Friends of Mt. Graham and the San Carlos Tribal Council have
>>been active in Washington, DC asking members of Congress to help
>>halt the telescope project and to protect our mountain.  The
>
>Or, if you consider the enormous scientific value of this unique
>international observatory project, that has minimal environmental
>impact on a 23 acre portion of Mt. Graham, is worth fighting for,

...how enormous an impact can *another* obervatory have ion a world
with many of them?

>Otherwise the hysterical quasi-religious ravings of a few fanatics
>will destroy this valuable bit of scientific progress.

...your utter disrespect and disregard for those with dissimilar views
from your own makes me want to puke...how `few' people are involved?
Probably a whole nation of people who find it difficult to keep from
being ground under by our culture...

...and by the way, the "we can afford to disregard ethics because this
is SCIENCE" attitude is eerily reminiscent of some Nazi death camp
practices... 
-- 
******************************************************************************
"There is nothing either good or bad, |  allen h. lutins
but thinking makes it so."	      |  VU0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu
	    Shakespeare (Hamlet II:2) |  "Individualists of the world, Unite!"
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Christopher Bail <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!igc.apc.org!cbail>
Subject: Re: ACTIVISM: Mt. Graham Action Alert!!
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 06:31:30 GMT

Original-Sender: Christopher Bail <igc.apc.org!cbail>

This is my first experience with this mailing list,
and it has been, well, exhilirating.

I would like to add one observation.  I hope it is
not irrelevant.

>	.......................People with eyes open realize this is just an
>eco-terrorist stunt on the order of Earth First! terrorist tactics.

>From my perspective, this, also, is an uninformed
position to take.  The corporate media chooses to
portray EarthFirst! as a bunch of wide-eyed radical
terrorists.  The subtext:  most environmentalists
are close behind on a slippery slope.  The EarthFirst!ers
that I have met fit quite a different mold.

I should add that my experience might be different
from people in the rest of the country, since the
Northern California chapter of EF! has broken with
the rest of the organization by actively espousing
principles of nonviolence.  Yet, I think this probably
makes little difference.

True, the EF! emphasis is not necessarily on activities like
public hearings, legal actions, and conferences.  There is,
however, a tendency toward being informed about
issues and technicalities.  And, judging from the
EF!ers that I have met, the first requisite for membership
seems to be the ability to "talk a good game"--
then MAYBE act upon those words.  What is most
threatening about EarthFirst! is not their actions
but their ethic.  "Deep ecology", even with all the
associated tautologies, is directly counter to
whatever the power elite might be mulling over.

It may be easy for some to sit in their armchairs
and criticize people willing to chain themselves
to bulldozers or blockade roads with their bodies,
but I am not one of them, whether they are protecting
a burial ground or a threatened bit of biodiversity.

Which is more lasting, Mr. Coffman, words or deeds?
Words alone cannot kill.

Open eyes are good tools for open minds.


Chris

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!icarus.ssd.loral.com!lakota!brunner (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: hiya
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:56:01 GMT

Original-Sender: icarus.ssd.loral.com!lakota!brunner (Brian Brunner)

As an american... I read with envy that the Canadian Natives are able to resist
and obstruct the Canadian Government without being  manupulated into a frame-up
murder/conspiracy rap and spend 20 years in a slammer from purgered testimony and
fabricated evidence and completly ignored treaty law provisions...
Is it just that the grass seems greener when viewed through long-distance
news reporting? Impression is that the (US) BIA exersizes what amounts to complete
ownership of the reservations, and grudgingly allows the natives to live there
as though they were tresspassers with emminent domain and imminent displacement.
Writing to OUR congresscritters? I write to mine without any real expectation
that they will hear and respond since I'm not offering jobs, money, political
favor, or public acclaim to help the politicians' personal agenda.

--

Columbus didn't even `discover' that he got lost by 8,000 miles!
brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Judith Dick <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!cs.toronto.edu!dick>
Subject: Re: hiya
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:07:31 GMT

Original-Sender: Judith Dick <cs.toronto.edu!dick>

	
icarus.ssd.loral.com!lakota!brunner (Brian Brunner) writes:

> As an american... I read with envy that the Canadian Natives are able to
> resist and obstruct the Canadian Government without being  manupulated into
> a frame-up murder/conspiracy rap and spend 20 years in a slammer from
> purgered testimony and fabricated evidence and completly ignored treaty law
> provisions...
>
> Glad to see someone is appreciative of the value of this victory.
>
> Is it just that the grass seems greener when viewed through long-distance
> news reporting?


I think there are 2 big contributing factors in this dispute.
The first is, in my opinion at least, the Mohawks fought exceptionally well,
despite the antagonistic version of the confrontation you see in the press.
The second is that the reps of both the governments of Canada
and of Que'bec were guilty of very bad judgement.

In spite of its rep of being kinder and gentler, I'm afraid Canada
can be just as brutal in its racism as other countries.  Where I grew
up it was the understood thing that if a member of the First Nations
killed a white, then 2 natives must be killed in retaliation.
This was understood among local officials and federal law enforcement
reps as I recall when a child.

In the case of murder or manslaughter charges, public refutation of the
idea that revenge killing is appropriate is put under closer scrutiny
than in other situations.  It is unlikely that the racist sentiment
that spawns revenge murders will die out in a single generation.
Even if it does, we are still a long way from more harmonious living
or with the apparent lack of goverment obstruction you envy.

I have been very surprised at the lack of comment on these decisions.
My own feeling is that they were a great triumph.  Hope now
they will be followed by more in the political arena.  I for one
like the prospect of future achievements with Ovide Mercredi as
Chief of the First Nations.  Looks as if he's doing just a fine
job from where I sit.

Judy Dick
dick@cs.toronto.edu


Newsgroups: alt.native
From: jerrett@iastate.edu (Gregory A Jerrett)
Subject: Re: ACTIVISM: Mt. Graham Action Alert!!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:47:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.085445.11603@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>In article <Environet.23Jul1992.5pm1@naughty-peahen.org> jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Environet via Jym Dyer) writes:
>>[From Environet]
>>
>>=> From: DENISE JOINES
>>=> Subj: MT GRAHAM ACTION ALERT!!
>>
>>         **************    ACTION ALERT!!  *************
>>
>>               LEGISLATION ON THE HORIZON TO PROTECT
>>                   MT. GRAHAM  -- IF YOU ACT NOW!
>>
>>Friends of Mt. Graham and the San Carlos Tribal Council have
>>been active in Washington, DC asking members of Congress to help
>>halt the telescope project and to protect our mountain.  The
>>Reasons for doing so are myriad.  As a biological sky-island Mt.
>>Graham is unparalleled.  As the birthplace of San Carlos Apache
>>heritage, culture and religion, Dzil nchaa si an (Mt. Graham)
>>is most important.  As a chance to reverse important breeches
>>in our environmental and cultural protection laws, the fight
>>to protect Mt. Graham is crucial.  What was undone in the
>>University of Arizona's attempt to erect a Tower Of Babel on
>>Mt. Graham, must be corrected.             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Or, if you consider the enormous scientific value of this unique
>international observatory project, that has minimal environmental
>impact on a 23 acre portion of Mt. Graham, is worth fighting for,
>then call your representative and voice your support for the project.
>Otherwise the hysterical quasi-religious ravings of a few fanatics
>will destroy this valuable bit of scientific progress.
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Gary

While an observatory may cause only minimal damage in the long run, its 
construction can cause considerable damage.  And why should even minimal
damage be tolerated by people with a legitimate aboriginal claim?
Voice your opinion, otherwise the hysterical quasi-religious ravings of a few
fanatics/scientists will destroy this valuable bit of creation.
Let's put an observatory on top of a cathedral and see who bitches!
You can rebuild those, you can't rebuild a mountain.

Greg Jerett
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"A wise man may change his mind a thousand times, but a damn fool never does."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)
Subject: Re:  hiya
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:10:32 GMT

Original-Sender: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)

I was going to answer viveka's memo privately, but in view of the one
I just answered because of Gary Coffman's hysterical response to the
"observatory controversy" I thought I'd do it "net-wide".  If Gary gave
(that is OUR Gary ...trujillo) gave this advice, he would be accused of
being pedantic .... I can afford to have people think I'm a busy-body
extremeist or whatever.

If you are genuinely concerned about our hardships, the way Native American
communities are being poisonsed, etc., get as much informed information
as possible from "objective  sources (if possible), and then carefully think
about your response.  Sincere, informed, responses from all over the world
DO make a difference.  Sometimes the concerns from outside our reservations,
our states, our race, etc make MORE difference .... and sometimes they are
brushed aside... who can predict.  Stop, Read, Think is a good prelude
to any letter writing.  Here on the Net, we don't always have that luxury,
as I'm sure you can tell from some of the heated, emotional responses
you read.

On behalf of those needing "public outcry" everywhere, I give you my
albeit insignificant, vote.

Thank You

Lyn Dearborn
From: v187ef4y@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick J Crowe)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: cultural appropriation
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:03:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Jul29.211001.24452@midway.uchicago.edu>,
 crawford@cs.uchicago.edu writes...
>In article <01GMRQHT1JM88ZG75V@UBVMS.BITNET>
>beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y writes:
>>Original-Sender: ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y (Patrick Crowe)
>>	What does your teacher say constitutes harm?  S/He ought to have told
>>you so that you would understand why your claim doesn't make the grade.  For
>>myself, I'd have to say that cultural harm is to be measured by the rules of
>>the culture in question.
> 
>I think many of you are missing something here... Someone asked a related
>question: "Whose story is it anyway?"  One might as well ask "Whose culture is
>it anyway?"  With respect to the appropriation of art-forms, you say: "The
>difference of opinion, I would guess, involves what constitutes harm to the
>native community."  Of course, we are all aware that the political, financial
>and, yes, genocidal harm has already been done!  So, what becomes of whatever
>fragments of cultural forms remain?  The question now is not so much one of
>"authenticity," rather it is about life and self-determination.
> 
>Just my 2 cents,
> 
>Paul

My point was to suggest that she approach the teacher with the argument as the
native culture would make it.  If a particular native culture views a practice
as harmful to their culture, than that practice is harmful.  Looking at the 
last sentence in each of our quotes above, I'd say we pretty much agree.

Pat Crowe
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y
Subject: Re: cultural appropriation
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:42:00 GMT

Original-Sender: ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y (Patrick Crowe)

Viveka-
I know you asked for direct replies, but this deserves to be brought to
everyone's attention.  The professor probably thinks that bringing native
art forms into the public eye is not detrimental to the native culture, even
if it is not _authentic_.   The difference of opinion, I would guess, involves
what constitutes harm to the native community.  Consider the appeal of rap in
the US.  If the use of 'Western' styles by others is a result of cultural
imperialism, why is the use of 'non-Western' styles by 'Westerners' also
cultural imperialism by 'Westerners'?
	What does your teacher say constitutes harm?  S/He ought to have told
you so that you would understand why your claim doesn't make the grade.  For
myself, I'd have to say that cultural harm is to be measured by the rules of
the culture in question.
	Hope that helps!
-Pat
From: Fellowship of Reconciliation <fornatl@igc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.native
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:30 PDT
Subject: December delegation to Ecuador
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1308200052:000:820
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!fornatl    Jul 30 18:30:00 1992


The Fellowship of Reconciliation Task Force on Latin America and 
the Caribbean and South and Mesoamerican Indian Information Center 
announce

A National Delegation To

Ecuador
December 5-20, 1992

Develop relationships with the powerful indigenous peoples' 
movement and communities of Ecuador.  The program will include 
both time in the Amazon area and in the highlands.  It will also 
examine the impact of U.S. oil companies' activities, Ecuador's 
foreign debt and U.S. military aid.  

$1300 covers airfare from Miami, room, board and in-country 
transportation, translation services and orientation materials.  
Limited scholarships available.

For more information or an application, contact:  F.O.R. Task Force on 
Latin America and the Caribbean, 515 Broadway, Santa Cruz, CA  
95060. Tel: (408) 423-1626.



Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Peshewegunzh <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>
Subject: Re: cultural appropriation
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 04:33:05 GMT

Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

"Cultural appropriation" is harmful when the item or ideas are
trivialized or conveniently misunderstood, then, in the manner of
a subsuming culture, held up as a mirror to the originating culture
to trivialize, propagandize or otherwise subvert it into
submission. It thus becomes disinformation, which supplants
real information but leaves the person thus disoriented believing
he or she is seeing a true picture of themselves or their society,
and thus deceived and robbed of their true identity.

I've thought about this since you posted it, but am long distance on the
road and thus do not just now have time to flesh out the details, which
do have considerable ramifications.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peshewegunzh

peshe%mamia.UUCP@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia.UUCP!peshe
peshe@mamia.UUCP
mthvax!mamia!peshe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: alt.native