HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Where have all the Scientologists gone....long time passing.
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:19:58 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt) writes:

>In article <schaf.726426846@cgl.ucsf.edu> schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes:

>> [ text deleted ]
> [text deleted ]

>It leaves me with deep questions about the nature of interactions that these
>people have within Scientology. Are they merely emulating the style of their
>instructors and high-ups with the CoS: make an arrogant claim, but don't back
>up what you say?

>Are they suprised that such techniques fail miserably on this newsgroup?

>Do they view this as an Evil Conspiracy against them? Or do they take
>responsibility for dropping the ball here (re: John Holifield's contest and
>David Bonnell's Dec. 18 suprise). In any case, I don't think that they're
>demonstrating Scientology in a favorable fasion.

>>So if a scientologist failing to deliver can be thought of as a surprise...

>My question: could Scientologists consider what they're doing as a "win" here?

I guess they can't, otherwise they would hang around longer.
The ones we have had around lately haven't had alot of saying power.

I think it says something about scientology; it is all style (of a sort) 
and no substance.  They bluff and bluster, but then can't follow up
because they really have nothing to say.  Scientology seems to teach people
how to appear like they understand everything and then change (or drop)
the subject before anyone asks real questions.

Scientology seems to be about: 
'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...
 baffle them with bullsh*t.'

>>.Chris.

>--phil

.Chris.

-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: wakeman@crchh7ce.BNR.CA (John Wakeman)
Subject: Past Civilizations
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:23:52 GMT
Reply-To: wakeman@crchh7ce.BNR.CA (John Wakeman)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Keywords: Spinning, Marcab, space opera

Well, this was one area that I found to be of interest myself.
In using Dianetics to audit individuals, you do come up with 
some of the most interesting stories which have occurred for
people before this lifetime that spans planets, ages and life-forms.
Whether or not it is true is up to any individual to determine
for themselves.

There is some detail of this type of information in the book
"HAVE YOU LIVED BEFORE THIS LIFE" by LRH of course.  Also the 
following can be found in the Tech Dictionary with some reference to
where they can be found in books or tapes:

	Spinning, Marcab, space opera

I will check for references later.

Actually I find it disappointing that the Scientologists may have
abandoned the group, because in spite of a lack of real ansers to
most of your( any non-scientologists ) questions, they do provide
some insight into what is occurring in Scientology today.  

If the active Scientologists or any in the know wants to address any
of the following, I would be interested.

How could David Mayo (former CS International) get to be the second
highest Tech Person in Scientology yet be a Suppressive Person?

Similarly, how could guys like Bill Franks and other former Executive
Director Internationals get to be the second admin level and likewise
be SPs?

Does this not seem contradictory to the actual tech involved in cleaning
folks up.   Actually, I have heard reference to Mayo and the Marcab in
present time, any one else?

Whatever happened to Kingsley Wimbush, I sat on his initial Committee of 
Evidence( a Scientology trial of sorts), but due to my and anothers low
ethics conditions, our findings were canned.

that's all for now,
john
============================================================================
I don't know what's going on, I just work here.
BNR doesn't endorse anything I say....    ANYTHING!

wakeman@bnr.ca
============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Where have all the Scientologists gone....long time passing.
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:14:06 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) writes:

>In article <C0GDGz.FMu@csn.org> pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt) writes:
>> In article <schaf.726305947@cgl.ucsf.edu> schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes:
>>> Do you think I scared Chip away with my 'religious-testosterone' comment?
>> To me, it looks as if things got a bit too hot for Chip and he decided
>> to bow out of the discussion.

>> What about John Holifield? Has he "disconnected" from this group again?

>> What about Jonathon?

>And what about David Bonnell -- surely the best of the bunch?

>Here is a repost of his latest contribution to this group:

>>>> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
>>>> From: davidb@engin.umich.edu (David Bonnell)
>>>> Subject: DECEMBER 18,1992
>>>> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 92 10:05:29 EST
>>>>
>>>> A suprise is coming on Dec 18, 1992.

>Any of you out there who knows what that was all about?
>--


Many of the scientologists in this group have a habit of
not following up their own comments.

So if a scientologist failing to deliver 
can be thought of as a surprise...

>Meta-disclaimer: A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
> 
>- gisle hannemyr  (Norsk Regnesentral)
>  OSI:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
>         gisle.hannemyr@nr.no                      (RFC-822  format)
>  Inet:  gisle@ifi.uio.no
>  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
>------------------------------------------------

.Chris.

-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Scientology: It's just "a joke".
Date: 9 Jan 93 07:22:07 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

sol@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (chris s de voir) writes:

>>schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes:

>>Is any of this written down anywhere accessible?
>>I'd LOVE to learn more about this Marcab confederacy.

>chris de voir writes back:

>The description of the Marcab confederacy and its reference are in the 
>"Technical Dictionary".  I also heard it on a tape.  Not all of the tapes
>have been transcripted, maybe they have by now.  I don't remember the name
>of the tape but you couldn't get it anyway.  You would have to register
>for their Levels classes to obtain the tape.  This is not an endorsement
>to do so, just a how to.

>>What do scientologists think of material like
>>'Marcab confederacy', 'machines that crunch tetans', 'implants'.
>>Is it treated with any seriousness at all?
>>Scientology doesn't dwell on this stuff does it?

>In Scn this is "serious" stuff.  The word crunch is my own, the idea is
>that a thetan is greatly reduced in capability by this machine.  The
>illogic of it is that like the E-Meter, how can a machine measure or
>have an effect on anything like a spirit?  My understanding is that
>this material is audited on the OT Levels.  The lower levels of Scn
>at least seem a little more real, don't they, dealing with things
>like communication, problems, confession, upsets and blame.
>This is the gradient way of getting more money out of you.  Space opera
>is slowly introduced along with something that relates to reality at least
>By the time you are auditing the OT levels, if you can tolerate what
>you've heard so far you should be ready to part with more money
>for more outrageous stuff.

That fits with everything else I've heard.
Is the same reason why the Church keeps releasing
new OT levels?  The church isn't going to let go
of those few rare people who have the money 
to make it to OT VIII and haven't yet choked on the material.

>>I find this stuff most interesting of all I've heard about
>>scientology.  Most of scientology is just re-hashed 1950's
>>popular psychology with a few twists to make it appear
>>technical and 'scientific'.  But ancient civilizations
>>that developed technology to operate on souls!
>>Thats original!

>I don't know, is it original?  Should we put a test question out on
>some sci.fi group?  Was anything that LRH wrote original?

Well, maybe not original, but selling it as truth, and
getting people to believe it, thats original.

The whole space opera thing sounds very cheezy.
I wonder if it would be possible to compile all of the
information that is taught in the upper levels
of scientology and publish it as a book?
I guess scientology lawyers would be all over you.

.Chris.

-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
From: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Where have all the Scientologists gone....long time passing.
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:09:21 GMT
Organization: gisle@ifi.uio.no
Originator: gisle@gyda.ifi.uio.no

In article <C0GDGz.FMu@csn.org> pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt) writes:
> In article <schaf.726305947@cgl.ucsf.edu> schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes:
>> Do you think I scared Chip away with my 'religious-testosterone' comment?
> To me, it looks as if things got a bit too hot for Chip and he decided
> to bow out of the discussion.

> What about John Holifield? Has he "disconnected" from this group again?

> What about Jonathon?

And what about David Bonnell -- surely the best of the bunch?

Here is a repost of his latest contribution to this group:

>>> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
>>> From: davidb@engin.umich.edu (David Bonnell)
>>> Subject: DECEMBER 18,1992
>>> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 92 10:05:29 EST
>>>
>>> A suprise is coming on Dec 18, 1992.

Any of you out there who knows what that was all about?
--
Meta-disclaimer: A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
 
- gisle hannemyr  (Norsk Regnesentral)
  OSI:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         gisle.hannemyr@nr.no                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  gisle@ifi.uio.no
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: And the guilty shall lead them
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:16:11 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab



From "The Georgia Straight" Dec 25 1992
a local paper in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
================================================
And the Guilty shall lead them

"Outrageous. Our innocent parishioners will have to pay for this."
- Toronto Church of Scientology official Earl Smith after the
church and three of its members were fined more than $250,000(Canadian)
for infiltrating the RCMP, the Ontario Provincial Police, Revenue Canada,
two law firms, medical associations, the Toronto police, and the
attorney general's office during the mid-1970s in order
to monitor their activities vis-a-vis the church.
================================================

That is the profit from only 84 E-meters!


.Chris.


--- So



-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: HELLO Hello hello hell...
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:39:07 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab


Do you think I scared Chip away with my
'religious-testosterone' comment?

.Chris.
-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: nar@math.wayne.edu (Mark Narduzzi)
Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbards newest book.
Keywords: dead 
Organization: Wayne State University Math Department, Detroit
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:08:31 GMT

In article <schaf.726645939@cgl.ucsf.edu> schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes:
>A while ago I saw a commercial on TV announcing
>L. Ron Hubbard's latest book.
>I think the book was called 'Fear'.
>Did I see this correctly?  
>Can anyone verify this?
>
>If this is the case then L. Ron Hubbard is a truly unique man.
>
>I've heard of people working with disabilities, 
>but being 10 years dead, that is amazing!
>
>Actually, 'dead' is not politically correct.
>I prefer the term: 'metabolically challenged'.

or how about 'terminally inconvenienced' ?

>
>.Chris.
>
>-- 
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
>University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
>"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu

Mark
-----------
  .sig out of order
-----------
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: rogue@ccs.northeastern.edu (Free Radical)
Subject: Re: Scientology: It's just "a joke".
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:22:46 GMT

In article <schaf.726391886@cgl.ucsf.edu> schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu
(Chris Schafmeister) writes: 
>What do scientologists think of material like
>'Marcab confederacy', 'machines that crunch tetans', 'implants'.
>Is it treated with any seriousness at all?
>Scientology doesn't dwell on this stuff does it?

From what I understand, as you go 'up the bridge', you get more & more
into this sort of thing, at least as an explanation for all the weird
shit you have to do.

>I find this stuff most interesting of all I've heard about
>scientology.  Most of scientology is just re-hashed 1950's
>popular psychology with a few twists to make it appear
>technical and 'scientific'.  But ancient civilizations
>that developed technology to operate on souls!
>Thats original!

The 're-hashed 1950's popular psychology' part is Dianetics, which Ron
put together first.  Then he started getting into all the past-life
stuff, and Scientology was born.  They don't like to dwell too heavily
on the sci-fi stuff too much until you're well & hooked.

On another note, I'm amazed that the Scientologists on here scream so
loudly about Xemu and how Ron could never have written anything like
that, because it's too weird - and then turn around and swallow the
Marcab stuff whole.  Go figure.

	RA

rogue@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (The Rogue Agent)
--------------------------------------------------
The NSA is now funding research not only in cryptography, but in all areas
of advanced mathematics. If you'd like a circular describing these new
research opportunities, just pick up your phone, call your mother, and
ask for one.
From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Scientology: It's just "a joke".
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:31:26 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

sol@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (chris s de voir) writes:

>tsang@cs.washington.edu (Donald Tsang) writes:
>> [Text deleted]


>An implant is a false picture or concept that is forced onto the thetan by the
>use of electronics.  LRH described in detail on tape what the chamber looks likewhen the thetan is tricked into this machine.  The "light" that some people 
>describe seeing in near death experiences is part of this bait for the thetan.
>This is part of the Marcab confederacy, which according to LRH no longer exists.The Marcab confederacy looks pretty much like our world, but it was a class
>society and the class in power got tired of too many trouble makers so they
>put them in these machines and crunch a thetan down to a less troublesome size.
>This is not the creation myth of Scientology; that's something else.  This is
>just "track".  My point here, however, is that nobody really talks about it
>much, but "God" gets audited out in the higher levels.  And the appearance
>that Scientology honors diversity of religion is pretend.

Is any of this written down anywhere accessible?
I'd LOVE to learn more about this Marcab confederacy.

What do scientologists think of material like
'Marcab confederacy', 'machines that crunch tetans', 'implants'.
Is it treated with any seriousness at all?
Scientology doesn't dwell on this stuff does it?

I find this stuff most interesting of all I've heard about
scientology.  Most of scientology is just re-hashed 1950's
popular psychology with a few twists to make it appear
technical and 'scientific'.  But ancient civilizations
that developed technology to operate on souls!
Thats original!

.Chris.

-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: decot@cup.hp.com (Dave Decot)
Subject: Re: Past Civilizations 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:48:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

John Wakeman (wakeman@crchh7ce.BNR.CA) wrote:
: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister) writes
: 
: >Were you a scientologist?  What caused you to leave?
: 
: Yes.  I was on staff from Jan. 1991 to Jan. 1993.   2/3 of the

I presume you mean "Jan. 1981 to Jan. 1983".  Right?

: or whatever.   I do have some criticisms of the church and I also
: think there is alot of good in the counseling and that it is
: very interesting.   

This basically describes my feelings about Scientology counseling.

: I have not completely disassociated myself from  Scientology.  I
: just have not been an active member for about 10 years now.

Same with me, except that I stopped communicating with my local org
in 1990.

Dave
From: pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: David Bonnell, Suppressor of Scientologists
Summary: ...and suppressor of free speech in our group.
Keywords: High Crimes, Open Threat
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:16:53 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

In article <6685@pdxgate.UUCP> sol@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (chris s de voir) writes:
>[Chris quotes e-mail from David Bonnell]:
>>Do you realize that you are committing serious High Crimes against
>>Scientology by your public disavowals of Scientology on the newsgroup
>>alt.religion.scientology?  You have major misunderstood words and you are
>>posing yourself as an authority in an area in which you are not.  I'm
>>writing full reports to the Religious Technology Center about your postings.
>>
>>Dave Bonnell

Generally, it's discouraged to insert e-mail into postings. In this case, it
appears to be justified. I'd say that Mr. Bonnell has also offered some FAQ
fodder in his petty threats. This shows far more about the nature of
Scientology than any of his Infomercial postings.

Now we have a theory as to Where all the Scientologists Have Gone. David has
threatened them out of existence. Unfortunately, he wasn't swift enough to
realize when he was threatening someone who couldn't be bamboozled by his
words. So much for the raised intelligence of Scientologists...

Thanks, Chris, for bringing this to our attention.

David, if you're not going to participate in our discussion, please cease and
desist from posting your Infomercials to this group. This is a Usenet
*discussion* group; your postings border on a violation of the agreed-upon
rules for posting. If you were willing to discuss the things you post, that
would be a different matter. However, posting and totally ignoring any
follow-up messages (and making *treats* to other Scientologists who aren't too
suppressed do discuss things) is not the way of Usenet.

Note: I am *not* turning you in to anyone. But you can count on appropriate
follow-up messages to each and every Infomercial that you post to this group.

My name is legion.

--phil

I'm also sending this to Mr. Bonnell as e-mail.
From: sol@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (chris s de voir)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Pushing Misinformation
Summary: The Scientologist is probably saying what he was coached to say.
Keywords: Scientologists Psychologists
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:02:19 GMT


>In article <TdV=KwA@engin.umich.edu> davidb@engin.umich.edu (David Bonnell) writes:

>>Psychologists are the largest
>>drug pushers on the planet.  I might even post some stuff about that
>>too.

I respond: "Psychologists" are not legally allowed to perscribe medication.
Psychologists have a masters or PhD and are licensed by each state to
provide counseling only not medical treatment.  "Psychiatrists" are
Medical Doctors and they are legally allowed to perscribe psychotropic
medications, such as, Prozac.  These doctors receive a license from the
Drug Enforcement Administration.  The name and amounts of controlled
substances they perscribe is monitored.  When violations of rather strict
laws concerning the use of controlled substances are detected the doctor
can face reprimand to suspension to incarceration.  Such actions are noted
regularly in professional publications.

Most Scientologists don't know the difference between a "Psychologist"
and a "Psychiatrist".  The brainwashing against any word with the
prefix "psycho-" is so intense most are too intimidated to delve any
further to verify for themselves the truth or falsity of what they
are told about the above two professions.  In fact, they are lumped
together in a "generality" and you know what a bad thing a generality
is to a Scientologist.  The wierd thing is that while LRH labelled
"generalities" the hallmark of a sick mind (borrowing heavily from
Korzybski), he turns around and makes quite a few himself.

This pattern inundates Scientology.  On the Levels Tapes concerning
Confessional counseling, LRH explains how the Nazis would find out
some very embarrassing dirt on someone and then blackmail them into
more naughty things.  Once a person confesses in auditing, even though
confidentiality is assured, it is common practice to blab that person's
wrongdoings if he goes AWOL and gets labelled SP or something.  So
really nobody in Scientology is assured of absolute confidentiality
and is really intimidated by this once they realize it.
From: aabst5@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: The latestREAD/NEXT
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:16:14 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <C0r05x.EC6.2@cs.cmu.edu>, lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:

> What the list doesn't include, is a single scientist or chess
> champion. Scientology claims to increase IQ and mental skill.
> Why no brainpower in the list?

Good question.  Also, how many of these "Scientologists" live like and/or get
treated to the average Scientologist lifestyle.  How many times has John
Travolta done an audit?  The TIME article suggests that celebrity
Scientologists get a far different treatment than the average man.

Scientology is a business -- just like Amway.