X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:37:57 PST
Reply-To:     Perikles Konstantinides <perkon@SCF.USC.EDU>
From:         Perikles Konstantinides <perkon@SCF.USC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ivdiavoi kai PFK
Comments: To: GEORGE%UMBC.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Comments: cc: hellas@uga.uga.edu
              Nov 12, 92 3:41 pm

Apantw suntoma:

> Eivai katapiesmevoi oi Ivdiavoi, vai n' ou?

        Kata thn tapeinh mou gnwmh, ou...

> H apavtnsn mou 0a avafer0ei stnv ugeia, paideia, oikovomikn
> avaptu3n kai egklnmatikotnta twv American-Indians...

         Ola auta pou anafereis den apantoun sto erwthma "einai
    katapiesmenoi" alla sto erwthma: "antimetwpizoun problhmata
    ws fuletikh omada;". Allo to ena, allo to allo.

> Prepei va snmeiw0ei oti n bibliografia gia tous American-Indians
> eivai elaxistn (kai auto deixvei polla)...
> 1. Ygeia: To 1831 to Avwtato Dikastnrio twv HPA diekurn3e oti (Cherokee
>           Nation vs. Georgia) oi diafores omades Ivdiavwv eprepe va
>           xaraktnri-
>           stouv sav "domestic dependent nations"  kai n sxesn tous me tnv
>           Amerikavikn kubervnsn "resembles that of a ward to his guardian."
>           To Kogkresso (pou eivai aln0eia oti exei dia0esei orismeva
>           snmavtika
>           posa), ta states kai oi apofaseis apo federal dikastnria APOFASIZAN
>           se poious American-Indians 0a divovtav ugeiovomikes paroxes, poios
>           0a tis plnrwve klp.
>           Opws eipame to Kogkresso die0ese kapoia lefta, alla ta dikastnria
>           0ewrousav auto to etnsio eisodnma sav voluntary (kai koita3te ta
>           dikngorika le3ika sas gia va deite pws metafrazetai n le3n) gia to
>           Kogkresso. Voluntary, kuries/oi, snmaivei oti ta lefta auta
>           mporousav
>           va kopouv opoiadnpote stigmn (pou snmaivei oti oi apofaseis tou
>           Kogkressou e3upnretousav politikes skopimotntes).

           Wraia ola, apodekta kai den ta amfisbhthsa pote. OMWS: opws
     grafeis, eginan to 1831! Shmera poia einai ta nomo0etika plaisia;
     Yparxei 0esmikh katapiesh; OXI.

>           TO ZOYMI: (a) Ta lefta pou divovtav gia ugeiovomikes paroxes (ka0ws
>           kai gia paideia klp) se mn takta xrovika diastnmata ntav giati oi
>           Ivdiavoi dev eixav (n' dev ekavav) arketa lefta gia va
>           e3upnretnsouv tis avgkes tous...
>                     (b) Oi ugeiovomikes paroxes dev apotelousav kai dev
>           apotelouv, akoma kai snmera, dikaiwma...

               Oute kai gia tous leukous apotelousan oute apoteloun dikaiwma.
     Katapiezontai mhpws kai oi leukoi;

>           SHMEIWSH: eivai gegovos oti exei beltiw0ei arketa n katastasn, alla
>           oi statistikes gia tous 0avatous veogvwv, gia ta infectious
>           diseases eivai akoma asuvn0ista megales.

             Auto to "asunh0ista" den to katalabainw. Mporeis na to
      exhghseis; "Asunh0ista" megales einai kai sto Washington DC.
      Mhpws katapiezontai kai oi mauroi ths Washington;

>           Episns ta pososta autoktovias eivai
>           kai auta asuvn0ista megala (pou snmaivei oti avtimetwpizouv $uxolo-
>           gika problnmata).

             Opws eipa kai x0es, ta idia akribws problhmata prepei na
    antimetwpizoun kai oi Souhdoi giati ki ekei ta pososa autoktonias
    einai "asunh0ista" megala. Mhpws katapiezontai;

>           Oi arxngoi tous mas leve oti auta ta "afusika"
>           faivomeva proerxovtai apo tnv epafn tous me "dutikes" suvn0eies.
>           Emeis twv koivwikwv epistnmwv sumfwvoume...

             Ki emeis sumfwnoume. Omws oi Indianoi apokleietai pleon na
      paroun thn gh tous pisw, kalws 'h kakws, kai prepei na aporripsoun
      to victimization and dependency culture pou tous katastrefei tis
      zwes, etsi wste na or0opodhsoun.

> 2. Paideia: Dustuxws to Amerikaviko sustnma Paideias stnrizetai, opws allwste
>             kai polla alla, se u$nlous ba0mous, "$nla" standards, tests kai
>             stulizarismeva gevika programmata pou prooorizovtai, kat'
>             apokleistikotnta, se aspra paidakia (pou snmaivei oti to
>             sustnma auto dev
>             perilambavei diafores avamesa se individuals kai groups). Poios
>             milnse gia sebasmo mias koultouras?...

           Edw exw liga perissotera na pw:

               1. To susthma paideias einai etsi opws to perigrafeis kai
          sthn Apw Anatolh.
               2. To Amerikaniko susthma eidika DEN einai etsi akribws
          kai auto fainetai kai apo tis kritikes pou ektoxeuontai enantion
          tou: elaxisth piesh stous ma0htes dhmotikou-gumnasiou, curricula
          pou epitrepoun stous ma0htes na kanoun o,ti 0eloun klp.
               3. Prin apo 4-5 xronia gunaika-efeths sto Buffalo ths NY
          eixe apofan0ei oti h xrhsh twn SAT scores san admission
          criteria apo ta State Universities ths NY einai ADIKH PROS TIS
          GYNAIKES giati, akouson akouson, perilambanonoun ma0hmatika, sta
          opoia oi gunaikes den einai (genetika....) to idio ikanes me
          tous andres... H apofash eixe dhmosieu0ei prwtoselidh ton
          Martio tou 1989 stous Times ths NY. Sumfwneis me auto; Ean den
          sumfwneis tote h parapanw kritikh sou peri "diaforetikwn
          politistikwn xarakthristikwn" katarreei eis ta ex wn sunete0h.

>             TO ZOYMI: H douleia dev givetai giati: 1)ta reservations
>           briskovtai
>           se a0lia oikovomikn katastasn pou snmaivei oti n paideia erxetai
>           PANTA deutern ($wmi kuries/oi), 2)poios 0a paei va dida3ei ekei ama
>           dev plnrwvetai, ama dev uparxouv ta mesa?
>           Omws oi ma0ntes pou briskovtai e3w apo reservations pngaivouv polu
>           kalutera apo tous ma0ntes twv reservations (ma pws givetai loipov
>           kai oi mev va eivai pio e3upvoi apo tous de - kai oi duo idia
>           `ratsa' dev eivai?).

           Twra me bazeis se peirasmo na se kraxw agria: esu den grafeis pio
      panw oti den einai dunaton na bazoume tous Indianous sto idio
      ekpaideutiko susthma me leukous logw ths diaforas "politistikwn
      axiwn" (o,ti ki an shmainei auto...);;;;;; Twra ti mas les; Oti oi
      Indianoi mporoun na ta kataferoun 0aumasia sto "leuko ekpaideutiko
      susthma".... Sobarologeis;

> 4. Egklnmatikotnta: Oi ereuves twv koivwvikwv epistnmwv eivai polu liges.
>           OMWS gvwrizoume oti: uparxouv megala problnmata alkoolismou.
>           Giati? Ama diabasete ta parapavw 0a katalabete...

           Epanalambanw: kai sthn Souhdia uparxei terastio pososto
     pa0ologikou alkoolismou. Ti sou leei esena auto;

> Telos, av n episke$n tou PFK stous Navajo ntav opws autn me tous astegous
> sto Washington DC (pou mas dnlwse tote oti autoi oi av0rwpoi dev upoferouv
> giati tous frovtizei n kubervnsn)

             Pseudesai kai lupamai. Auto pou eixa pei einai oti h
     megalh pleiopshfia twn astegwn sto Fairfax County ths VA einai
     ('h htan to 1988) mental patients oi opoioi briskontai stous
     dromous arnoumenoi na ekmetaleu0oun ta programmata uposthrixhs
     tous pou uphrxan. Auto eixa pei.

> tote 0a suvistousa n' va diabasei kava
> biblio parapavw (apo keiva twv e3tremistwv koivoviologwv kai av0rwpologwv)
> n' va rwtnsei kava sxetiko me to zntnma n' va pa va znsei mazi tous gia va
> tous apavtn0ouv ta "e kai loipov?" tou...

           1. Sta "e, loipon" mou, akomh na dwseis ikanopoihtikh apanthsh
     pou na deixnei oti oi Indianoi katapiezontai. Akousame gia tis
     diaithtikes tous sunh0eies, gia thn ugeia tous, gia ta eisodhmata
     tous. Gi' auta pote den amfeballa. Se kalesa omws na mas peis TI
     akribws deixnoun ola auta ta hmitelh stoixeia se sxesh me ton ean
     katapiezontai. Fusika, den apanthses. Ean nomizeis oti isxuei
     h exiswsh

              Ftwxeia = Katapiesh

     tote ase kalutera thn episthmh kai piase thn khpourikh ...

           2. Opws eipa kai ston Bafeiadh h katastash sto reservation
     den 0umize Chevy Chase, MD, ALLA: paromoia ftwxeia uparxei kai
     se polla alla merh tou kosmou, XWRIS NA YPARXEI KATAPIESH.

          To link metaxu ftwxeias kai katapieshs akomh na to breis....

> O lukos

pfk
southern cal
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