HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: uunet!mailrus!gatech!mit-eddie!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Medieval WitchCraze
Date: 29 Jul 1992 21:30:34 GMT
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

DanZ writes:

>    I think this would be misguided.  I haven't made a study of it, but
> from what I have read, I would be surprised if the majority of 'witch'
> prosecutions were female.
>    It seems to me that almost all prosecutions for witchcraft were
> started for paranoid religious orthodoxy or political reasons. Witness
> for example the mass charges of witchcraft against the Knights
> Templars in the 1300's.  In the patriarchal society of the middle
> ages, it was largly men that had political enemies to be attacked by.
>
>    It seems to me that the modern concept of 'witch' as a female (and
> an ugly on, at that) is more derived from Hollywood than historical
> myth and belief.

I am no scholar on witchcraft either, but I have read Mary Daly's
*Gyn/Ecology*, which contains a whole chapter on European
Witchburnings.  Daly makes a strong argument that the persecution of
witches was strongly linked to anti-woman sentiments.  

In a footnote, Daly writes:

"There are no complete records of the numbers of women killed as
witches.  See Matilda Joslyn Gage, *Woman, Church and State* (2nd ed.:
New York: Arno Press, 1972), p. 247; edition first published 1893.
Gage writes: "It is computed from historical records that nine
millions of persons were put to death for witchcraft after 1484, or
during a period of three hundred years, and this estimate does not
include the vast number who were sacrificed in the preceding centuries
upon the same accusation.  The greater number of this incredible
multitude were women."" [there are other estimates of the number of
executions that range from 30,000 to into the millions]

Daly also notes that the American witch trials were hardly comparable
to the European ones; in Salem, Mass., for example, twenty people were
executed -- 13 women and 7 men.

I highly recommend Daly's book, especially to those interested in
learning about the persecution of witches.

--Cindy Blank-Edelman


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From: danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR])
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Most teachers white, female, survey shows
Date: 22 Jul 1992 00:40:52 GMT
Organization: Dread Zepplin Fan Club
Distribution: world
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Gerard Pinzone writes:

>>Perhaps it is because the dominant culture (i.e., our society)
>>does not value primary education all that much in the first
>>place. Males (most of whom still remain "breadwinners") find
>>that out by examining how much teachers get paid, then decide
>>that maybe "computers" isn't as bad as they originally thought.
>
>Well, if that was the case, most males would become RN's since they
>pay 38k a year and can end up only working two days a week (if they
>pull an all-nighter) while your average comp sci/engineer grad makes
>less than 30k in this job market.

Well, I don't know about Cleveland, but here in Silicon Valley, 
an engineer can easily make double what a nurse does, especially
with say, 5-10 years experience.

>The roles of women and men in the workplace is governed by
>inertia....it takes time to make changes.

I don't think it is just inertia. Traditionally in our society
sexism (like other -ism's) is deeply ingrained. Even the US
Supreme Court believes it impossible for a woman to commit
statutory rape. . .Certainly a male nurse is a much more likely
candidate for Oprah/Geraldo/Phil/Sally than a male engineer,
just as a female firefighter is a more likely candidate than
a female nurse. 

D


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From: rawdon@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: rawdon@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:06:20 GMT

In <14k41nINNb37@agate.berkeley.edu> slarsen@verdi.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:
>I've been reading all these wonderfully phrased pleas
>for women to take up the gauntlet of men's issues
>or for all people to join together and fight the single
>good fight of "gender issues."  Very eloquent.

>I think of life as a hike in the woods.  Here the
>man has hiked over stones, down ravines, up mountains,
>stealthily past sleeping critters.  Now he stands at the
>raging river and he looks over to his companion for
>assistance.  Well, the companion is not by his side
>because she is still about a quarter mile back struggling
>to get out of the last ravine.

A nice analogy, but... what if the man figures out a way to get across
the river by himself?

The analogy also breaks down since it is certainly conceivable that
men could tackle their own problems while at the same time helping
women with theirs (a concept which makes little sense in the analogy).

I also keep getting the feeling that women don't really *want* my help
in dealing with "women's issues".  Well, more energy for my own
problems.

(I don't really understand what "men's issues" are, anyway.  I'm more
interested in *my* "issues".  Whatever they are. :-)

--
Michael Rawdon
rawdon@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department, Madison, WI

The government - it's not just your Big Brother, it's that kid down the block
who likes to beat you up and take your lunch money.

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From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.EDU (Rick Russell)
Subject: Re: Segregation by sex, cont'd
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: 25 Jul 92 04:57:07 GMT

My first post on soc.feminism!

In article <14ib4aINN387@agate.berkeley.edu> bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis) writes:
... much interesting material on single-sex schooling deleted for brevity...

>P.S. (I spent two years in an all boys high school.  Somehow I can't see
>that this has had any appreciable effect about my attitudes towards
>myself or towards women.)

Interesting that you should mention this. I spent all four years of
high school (and 2 years of middle school) in a private single-sex
institution, and I can only presume that my opinion of females has
been affected for the better (!)

Let me make it clearer. After spending my entire adolescent life
separated from girls at school, I formed *no* opinion about women.
None whatsoever. I entered college life not knowing what to expect
from women.

Overall, I'd say the experience was positive. Since there were no
girls, I was not prejudiced against them in any way. I didn't see or
hear any male high school teachers denigrating women in class (or at
all, really); I didn't ever see a teacher talk down to a "girl's
level", I didn't ever see a teacher intentionally reduce the
difficultly of the work (e.g. in science & mathematics) to supposedly
make it easier for the girls; I never saw girls 'play dumb' to get a
boy's attentions. Several female friends, including my wife, have
informed me that these were frequent practices in their own coed high
schools. I really found *that* hard to believe.

--
# Rick Russell    | TAMU Meteorology   | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Internet) #
# "If you can't have fun with a dozen inflated rubber hands,                #
# then you're not trying."  - Carla LeBec                                   #

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From: nigel.allen@canrem.COM (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Apartment Owner Charged With Sexual Harassment
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Echo Beach
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:16:42 GMT

[Moderator's note: Government presss releases are public domain;
indeed wide dispersal is encouraged.  Feel free to print this
out/forward to any one you like.   --CTM]

Press release from U.S. Department of Justice

 Belleville, Ill., Apartment Owner/Manager Charged With Sexual and
Racial Harassment of Tenants
 To: National Desk
 Contact: U.S. Department of Justice, Public Affairs, 202-514-2007

   WASHINGTON, July 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Department of Justice
filed a civil rights lawsuit against the owner and manager of two
apartment buildings in Belleville, Ill., today, charging him with
sexual and racial discrimination in the rental of housing units.
   The lawsuit charging violations of the federal Fair Housing Act
was filed in U.S. District Court in East St. Louis, against Joe
Brawley, the owner and manager of two apartment buildings containing
20 rental units in Belleville.
   According to the suit, Brawley subjected female tenants to
extensive sexual harassment, including pervasive and persistent
verbal harassment, sexual advances and propositions, invasion of
privacy and sexual assault.  The complaint also alleged that Brawley
subjected African-American tenants to pervasive racial harassment,
including persistent verbal and written harassment.
   John R. Dunne, assistant attorney general in charge of the Civil
Rights Division, said, "No American should have to endure sexual or
racial harassment or unwanted sexual advances for any reason.  To be
subjected to sexual or racial harassment by your landlord violates
the principles of equal treatment required by the Fair Housing Act."
   According to Dunne, numerous individuals may have been aggrieved
by the defendants' alleged discriminatory housing practices.  He said
the department will seek compensatory and punitive damages on their
behalf.  The government's complaint also asks the court to assess a
civil penalty to vindicate the public interest.
   A private lawsuit also has been filed in federal court by four
former tenants of Brawley, alleging that he sexually harassed them
while they lived in his apartments.
   "Discrimination in housing on the basis of sex has been unlawful
under the Fair Housing Act for over 15 years and will not be
tolerated.  In this instance we believe we have uncovered unlawful
conduct that has affected the rights of many persons to live in an
environment free of sexual and racial harassment.  The federal
government will employ its resources aggressively to end such
discrimination and to obtain remedies for those tenants who have been
victimized," said Dunne.
 -30-
--
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World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044

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From: michael@psych.toronto.edu (Michael Gemar)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: A feminist style socio-economic reform!
Date: 23 Jul 1992 17:53:41 GMT
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul22.203846.74884@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> mk0i@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (MONICA KELLNER) writes:
>[Moderator's note: excessive included text trimmed.]
>
>In article <14iefnINN3pd@agate.berkeley.edu>, maxtal@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (John MA
>X Skaller) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul20.010819.29064@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> AGRSS@lure.latrobe.edu.
>au ("SUBBAIAH,Santharam") writes:
>>>REFORM 1.
>>>      "All women who deliver normal children should be compensated
>>>in monetory terms for their child bearing services".
>>       "Counter proposal: all people who create new children
>>should be severely fined for bringing even more people into
>>an overcrowded world."
>>       You're assuming it's a service. [...]
>> [...] I tend to think those who
>>bring children into the world who cannot afford to keep them
>>have something to answer for.
>
>Though having a child is a personal matter, that new person will be part of
>society.
>If we keep making the life of a new person a personal matter of his/her
>parent/s, we will continue producing a society where lots of people feel
>outsiders and keep one of the highest unjustified delinquency levels of the
>world. 

What?  This makes absolutely no sense to me.  Of course the each new person
born into society is a part of it.  The question is whether we should be
encouraging the production of new persons.  I see absolutely no reason to
do so, and many reasons to actively encourage lower birthrates.  No one is
saying that an infant will be ignored by society -- merely that their production
shouldn't be encouraged.

>Why scrue a child because of some deficiency in the parent/s strength?

What does this mean?  What deficiency?  I own a dog, and I consider this a
personal choice, not a "deficiency" in my strength, yet I do not expect
society to pay for the maintenance of my pet.  I am not saying that having
children is wrong, merely that it is a personal choice, and the State should
not be providing incentives for one choice over the other.

>A child is a private matter but also a societies matter, as all other
>societies consider it.

As ours does as well (with Family Allowance in Ontario, and similar programs
in the States, as well as public schools, daycare, etc.).  The question is
far more specific -- should women be paid to produce children?  The answer
that is obvious to me is "no".

- michael





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From: tracy@cubmol.bio.columbia.EDU (Tracy Shevell)
Subject: WAC
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:05:55 GMT

     Can anyone help?  I am extremely interested in joining WAC
(Women's Action Coalition) but have been unable to find anyone who can
provide me with assistance or information.  I want to become involved
in the Manhattan chapter.  Please send any helpful info directly to
me...

tracy@cubmol.columbia.bio.edu

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From: aeckert@darwin.cc.nd.edu (Amy Eckert)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: What's a female "Uncle Tom"?
Followup-To: soc.feminism
Date: 29 Jul 1992 18:16:09 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Distribution: world
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In article <oneil.712207898@cwis>, oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
wrote:

> 
> My next read for the summer will probably be "The Closing of the
> American Mind" since Faludi spends a good time talking about him.
> (Now here's a guy who sounds like he has some deep-rooted personal
> problems.)
> 

Yes, he does!  Allan Bloom was a teacher at Columbia during the 60's where
he was locked in a closet during a riot.  His hostility toward college
students REALLY shows through.  He also has a number of things to say about
feminism which are rather interesting.  Bloom makes the claim that feminism
has destroyed the family by destroying the view that women and children are
the property of men.  Bloom seems to think that the only way a man will
meet his responsibilities to his wife and children are if he thinks they
are his property.  Very depressing.

Amy
aeckert@darwin.cc.nd.edu


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From: goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: FEMINIST CANDIDATES F
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:42:45 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes...
MB> So, can anyone tell me if these women are actually feminists, or who the
MB> male feminist candidates might be?

Better yet, Muffy, why don't we turn our sights towards looking for, and
throwing our support behind EQUALIST candidates, both female *and* male?

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---
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From: dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Olympics and Exclusion of Women
Date: 30 Jul 1992 14:38:10 GMT
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX
Distribution: world
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In article <157s5kINN2p1@agate.berkeley.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>judith@super.super.org (Judith D. Schlesinger) writes:
>
>>The equestrian events are mixed sex--both for the horses and the riders :-).
>>I can't think of any others, though.
>
>Now suppose (for the sake of argument) that
>in some particular event, the man winning the bronze usually outperformed the
>woman winning the gold.

That's a lot more than mere supposition.  I'm hard pressed to think of any
event where this is NOT true, except for gymnastics perhaps.  Of course, in
gymnastics, women and men don't do the same things, so that is a moot point.

The most obvious example I can think of is running, for any distance.  The
world's record in the 100-meter dash for men is -- from memory -- about
4 seconds faster than the women's, which is about a 40% difference.
Any man who didn't routinely beat the women's record wouldn't even *make*
it to the Olympics.  As for distance running, the numbers for marathons
are almost as wide spread (percentage-wise, of course).

I won't even mention basketball -- oops, I just did.  Oh, well.

>Would mixed competition be a "good" thing under those
>conditions?

No, IMHO.  I like women's events just as much as men's events, and to have
mixed competition would be to eliminate women from the Olympics altogether --
which is something that, it seems, the people in the this thread are afraid
is happening already.

Daniel Welch
----
I stand outside this women's work,
This women's world;				Kate Bush,
It's hard for the man --			"This Women's Work"
His part is over,
Now comes the craft of the father.


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From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.EDU (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Medieval WitchCraze
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:01:10 GMT

In article <Bs0JL2.G1z@watdragon.waterloo.edu> ljcummings@poppy.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>
>	I was curious, in the light of some medieval research I've
>	been doing whether or why the medieval (and early modern)
>	'witchcraze' has or has not become a rallying point, or common
>	cause for modern feminists?

   I think this would be misguided.  I haven't made a study of it, but
from what I have read, I would be surprised if the majority of 'witch'
prosecutions were female.
   It seems to me that almost all prosecutions for witchcraft were
started for paranoid religious orthodoxy or political reasons. Witness
for example the mass charges of witchcraft against the Knights
Templars in the 1300's.  In the patriarchal society of the middle
ages, it was largly men that had political enemies to be attacked by.

    It seems to me that the modern concept of 'witch' as a female (and
an ugly on, at that) is more derived from Hollywood than historical
myth and belief.

DanZ

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From: ljcummings@poppy.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Medieval WitchCraze
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:52:44 GMT

	Hi!  I don't normally read soc.feminism, but have a couple of
	questions which I thought this would be the proper place to
	ask.

	I was curious, in the light of some medieval research I've
	been doing whether or why the medieval (and early modern)
	'witchcraze' has or has not become a rallying point, or common
	cause for modern feminists?

	The idea I think I want to express in the short thing I'm
	writting is that it is because it is one of the few examples
	where over a couple centuries perhaps a million or more women
	were persucuted, for 'no good reason'.

	I was wondering whether anyone here agreed/disagreed with
	that?

	I believe it is possible to tie this into the concept that
	Patriarchy is really caused by a submerged fear of women's
	sexuality, but would be curious to know how several of you
	would define patriarchy, and whether this could be realated to
	the concept of free-will.

	Sorry if that's a bit confused and philosophical... anyways as
	I said I don't normally read this newsgroup so would
	apprieciate any disagreements, correections, suggestions
	(ie.e. books ot read) and attempts to educate me sent through
	e-mail.

Many thanks,

ljcummings@poppy.uwaterloo.ca



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