From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Subject: Re: The After-life
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:32:29 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.074354.631@menudo.uh.edu> kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.202524.26862@tc.fluke.COM> emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr7.012115.7172@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> erisande@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Erin Anderson) writes:
>>>	Question...  If there is such a Being as God, or whatever they
>>>call him now, IF he exists, Then how can Hell be posible?  My eartly
>>>father would not want to punish me for the rest of my life, why would
>>>the Heavenly Father (who MUST love me more than the earthly father)
>>>put me in punishment forever? 
>>
>>He doesn't, Eric.   He wills completely the opposite.  In fact He has
>>gone to radical extremes to prevent this from happening, even to the
>>point of sending His own eternal Son to pay the penalty due us.
>
>This is so incredibly bogus that it's hard for me to believe that *anyone*
>buys this junk.

But many, many people do.  There is something very powerful working in this
message of grace.  And it's really very easy to understand.

>
>This "God" SET UP THE RULES.  And here you are claiming that "He has gone
>to radical extremes to prevent this [people going to Hell] from happening".

God set up the plan to remove forever the effects and evil of sin.  And
this plan is to redeem every single human being from the evil results of
this sin.  And He gave up His own Son to accomplish it.  That's how much
He loves you.

>What a load of baloney.

Before you call it baloney, Kevin, let me say that it is you also that
He loves and whom He died for also.

>"Radical extremes" indeed.  It looks like a fireworks show to me,
>designed to impress the masses, but having no real substance.

Kevin, it's not a game.  The Son of God became man and died on a cross
to save us.  It's a very serious matter.  It is not a firework show or
He wouldn't have gone through all the pain, agony, and rejection for
you.  

>>2 Peter 3:9 says that "he
>>is patient with you, not wanting *anyone* to perish, but *everyone* to
>>come to repentance."
>
>*Snicker*.  Gee, if that were the case, there would *be* no ETERNAL
>punishment, would there?  

Kevin, putting aside the issue of ETERNAL or temporary, do you believe
God has a right to punish you, even if it is a temporary punishment?
If ETERNAL is too harsh, what about temporary?

>                           Rather, he would arrange for everyone to have
>eternal life automatically, and allow people to come to him or leave
>him as they please.

He has arranged it: for *everyone*.  It is yours to receive or reject.
Kevin, its free: do you want it?

>Now *there's* a solution in which *everyone* wins.  "God" wins because
>he maximizes the likelihood that any given person will eventually come
>to him (given an infinite amount of time and a nonzero probability
>that any given individual will come to him, everyone eventually will).

So you acknowledge there is a need for people to come to Him?  Are you
acknowledging, then, that you need to eventually come to Him?

>Instead, he makes demands: "Love Me Or Else You Will Be Dead".
>"Believe In Me Or You Will Roast For Eternity".  Etc., ad nauseum.

He never said this, these are your words.  He has said,

"Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest."
					-Matthew 11:28

"Come!  Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him
 take the free gift of the water of life."	-Revelation 22:17

Of Him it is written,

"You are forgiving and good, O LORD, abounding in love to all who call
 to you."		-Psalm 86:5


"He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food       
 to the hungry.  The Lord sets prisoners free, the Lord     
 gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who      
 are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous.  The Lord    
 watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and     
 the widow, but he frustrates the way of the wicked."
                                -Psalm 146                        

>So: would you have us believe that your "God" is too *stupid* to come
>up with the idea I outlined above?  Because if not, then it means that
>your "God" *deliberately* set things up otherwise (having thought of my
>idea and *discarded* it), and that makes him either a big asshole (for
>deliberately setting things up such that people suffer eternally for
>FINITE acts and decisions) or a wimpy incompetent (for not being *able*
>to set things up a better way).

Kevin, your idea about God is wrong.  You have totally misjudged His
motives and have become hostile and bitter toward Him.   You have
justified yourself and condemned the God of the universe as guilty.  
Would you being willing to at least possibly consider that you could
be wrong and He be right?

>So, which is it?  Is your "God" malicious or a wimpy incompetent?  Given
>your beliefs about how things supposedly work, you really haven't got any
>other choices.

I would suggest that you talk to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
Are you too proud to do that or could you possibly question yourself as
not having a full understanding of Him?   Possibly He could give you 
understanding.

In His love,

John
emery@tc.fluke.COM