HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Videotaping rapes
Date: 4 Oct 92 21:32:13 GMT
Followup-To: talk.rape
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1992Sep28.231056.23081@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

#    Some years ago, the anti-porn movement began to talk about
# snuff-porn. [..] Screw Magazine (that hotbed of liberalism :-) has
# offered a $20,000 reward for anyone who can produced one. There
# have been no takers.

Hmmm.  I hope the same ambiguity wasn't in the original offer.

ObUL: A store in a large shopping mall, somewhere in North America,
had to be condemned after a balloon-o-gram outfit moved in and cracks
began to appear in the walls.  It seems the architects hadn't
anticipated stock with negative weight.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Importance of claims about snuff porn (was:Videotaping rapes)
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:05:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.192013.20864@engage.pko.dec.com> nancyb@os2lan.enet.dec.com (nancy b.) writes:
>
>
>>   I'll repeat my challenge: Prove that the films exist or retract your
>>   claim.
>
[quote of original deleted]
>
>	What claim did I make?  (I can forward you the rest of the 
>	post if you think it was somewhere else.)
>
    Since you say you didn't make any claim, I'll retract my challenge. I
don't want to seem to be coming down on any particular person. These
arguments tend degenerate fast to somthing like this:

>>Prove they exist.
>prove they don't.
no, you prove they exist.

   The importance to the argument (as it relates to t.r) is that if
something distracts from the problem (rape), then it interferes with all
attempts to solve the problem.

   As far as I can find, the snuff pornography question was invented some
years ago by a group of people who were desperate to find a link between
rape and pornography.
   Even though no examples of snuff porn (rape and/or murder) have be
brought to light, the issue periodically reappears. Not just in t.r,
soc.feminism, or alt.sex.movies, but also in campus newsletters (there was
a paphlet published at Columbia a few years ago that claimed that snuff porn
was on of a few general _types_ of pornography.

    My opinion is that the snuff porn issue does two bad things. First
it is ammunition for those who slam pornography. Second, it distracts from
the real causes and effects of rape (whatever they are). I wish we could
lay these rumors to rest for once and until an examples comes to light.
   Someone says they are going to try to find more info about the cases
mentioned in the original article. I'm very happy about that, and I wait
for the result.
DanZ


-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Holzman doesn't buckle under to Posey's macho shit
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:08:32 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Oct06.143106.2767@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey 
P920) writes:
> ... my tax dollars and get busy smashin' atoms or whatever useless activity
> you get paid to engage in.  Unless I speak to you directly then keep your
> mouth shut.  Are you readin' me Cosgrove Jr.?  

You can take this response as me telling you to take your attitude and orders 
and shove them up your evil part.  If you don't want to talk to me, stop
responding.

> If not then let's take this off-line and stop clutterin' up talk.rape.  This 
> is the wrong forum for either of us to espouse our religious views.

Feel free to redirect to talk.religion.misc.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Xref: sparky talk.rape:2499 alt.folklore.urban:24478
From: nancyb@os2lan.enet.dec.com (nancy b.)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Videotaping rapes
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:21:03 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


re:  dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)

>   I'll repeat my challenge: Prove that the films exist or retract your
>   claim.

	Did you read my orginal post at all?

	Please read the following, and note what statement I 
	surrounded with asterisks:

	  -----------------------------------------------------------------
          Dr. Dines said that a group of men doing this in New York (City?)
          were convicted of rape, and that in Keene, New Hampshire, the
          police were able to infiltrate a group before they actually began
          raping women for video porn.  *I would be interested in more
          specific info on either of these cases*.   After the lecture I
          was talking with a woman about her experience and how to deal
          with the local District Attorney, and Dr. Dines had left by the
          time we finished.
	  -----------------------------------------------------------------

	What claim did I make?  (I can forward you the rest of the 
	post if you think it was somewhere else.)

	What claim do you want me to retract?  

						nancy b.

	===================================================================
	   Damn my soul  that remembers  and clutches to  this pain.
		-- Melissa Etheridge
		   "The Late September Dogs"
	===================================================================
Xref: sparky talk.rape:2480 alt.folklore.urban:24374
From: snopes%club33@stlth.enet.dec.com (snopes)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Videotaping rapes
Date: 28 Sep 92 12:10:41 GMT
Organization: Just put everything on the floor; I can find it.


In article <+b_py!c.barry@netcom.com>, 
  barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes...

>Bingo. Now ask the next question: why would anyone market a
>recording of themselves committing a felony which, in combination with
>the woman's testimony, makes an open-and-shut case?

Maybe he's running for office.

 - snopes

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|"[Disney's machine] has placed a Mickey Mouse hat on every little developing |
| personality in America.  As capitalism, it is a work of genius; as culture, |
| it is mostly a horror."   --   Richard Schickel, "The Disney Version"       |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  David P. Mikkelson   Digital Equipment Corporation   Culver City, CA  USA  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hawes@ds15.scri.fsu.edu (Fred Hawes)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Family Values
Date: 4 Oct 92 07:59:10 GMT
Reply-To: hawes@ds15.scri.fsu.edu (Fred Hawes)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <1992Sep28.235517.24437@cs.ucla.edu> coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman) writes:
>cotera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>|The Spanish Inquisition was very un-Christian.  That's not surprising since
>|the Catholic Church at the time was very un-Christian.
>
>I disagree.  The Inquisition was condoned (at least) by the Catholic church.
>And at that time, the Catholic church *was* Christianity.

Interesting thing I was told by my Ancient & Medieval History teacher
some years ago (and she had no particular love for the Catholic Church):
At the time Spain went officially Christian, there were a HUGE number of
Muslims there.  A lot of them underwent 'conversions of convenience' to
Catholicism, and then went to work for the Inquisition.  Apparently
before that the Inquisition just wanted to inquire as to the orthodoxy
of peoples' beliefs, without any real violence; the real ugly stuff
happened after the influx of closet Muslims.

And Coleman's right, the Catholic church *was* Christianity at the time.
They certainly believed in Jesus Christ.  Further, they have a better
pedigree than any Protestant churches, Jesus Christ *himself* started
the Catholic church...

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Lot's daughters
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:18:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.235826.24541@cs.ucla.edu>, coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman) writes: 
> He could have done what was right.  Lot was a scumbag.  The status of the
> deity who put him up to all of this is left as an exercise for the reader.
> 
> Mike

So what you you have him do?
--Ray Cote
     "The origin of life appears to be almost a miracle, so many are the
conditions which would have had to be satisfied to get it going."
                                                   --Francis H.C. Crick
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Family Values
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:55:24 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Oct1.092309.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cotera@woods.ulowell.edu 
writes:
> Well half-way it is.  Under the Judaic Law witches were to be put to death. 
> This was necessary for the time.  When Jesus died for us he removed us from
> being under the curse of the law.  So as Christians we should not put witches
> to death.  But neither should we condone their pagan practices.  No one said
> that Protestants were perfect, but being an ex-Catholic I know that
> Catholiscism is plagued with false doctrines.
> --Ray Cote

As a Witch, I can only point to your condoning of my execution as yet another
reason that your "moral" system is none that we should be teaching our
children.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: jmercier@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: RE: Lot's daughters
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:40:20 GMT
Organization: Clark University


In a previous article, holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) wrote:
>In article <1992Sep28.092615.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cotera@woods.ulowell.edu 
>writes:
>> and calm the people down.  When talking didn't work he offered his daughters. 
>> He didn't want his daughters to be gang raped, but his guests were more
>> important than him or his family.  Before this could happen the angels grabbed
>> Lot and brought him back inside.  They then blinded everybody outside.  The
>> next morning they destroyed the city.  I hope everyone now understands why Lot
>> would give his daughters to the crowd to be raped.
>> --Ray Cote
> 
>So much for family values and Judeo Christian values.
> 
>The question wasn't why Lot offered his daughters, I understood that.  My
>question is how you can expect me to take seriously a value system that rules
>this to be moral behavior.
> 
>-- 
>Daniel B. Holzman                    

you can't.  plain and simple.
                                                                -jen




*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* 
* Whatever it may bring         * But wait! Some cynic from the edge of the   *
* I will live by my own policies* crowd insists that human beings still can't *
* I will sleep with a clear     * _really_ fly.  Not like birds anymay.  True.*
*   conscience                  * But somewhere in some little garage, some   * 
* I will sleep in peace         * maniac with a gleam in his eye is scarfing  *
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * vitamins and mineral supplements, and       *
* Jmercier@vax.clarku.edu  or   * practicing flapping his arms faster         * 
* jmercier@black.clarku.edu     * and faster. - Robert Fulghum                *
*                               *                                             *
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Videotaping rapes
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:32:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.050136.7254@engage.pko.dec.com> nancyb@os2lan.enet.dec.com (nancy b.) writes:
>          re:  dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
>
>          > The article by Kutchinsky titled "pornography and rape: theory
>          > and practice?" talked briefly about snuff films.
>                                                ^^^^^
>
>          But this topic is not about snuff films. Your reference is
>          irrelevant.
>
   Nope, sorry. I think my article was very clear that the author was
talkin about a film where a woman is raped and/or murdered. Whether yo
want to call a mere rape movie a snuff film or not, there is no evidince
that they exist.

   I'll repeat my challenge: Prove that the films exist or retract your
claim.

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Family Values
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:58:07 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.125524.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes: 
> As a Witch, I can only point to your condoning of my execution as yet another
> reason that your "moral" system is none that we should be teaching our
> children.

When did I condon your execution? When Judaism first came about it was
necessary to execute witches.  Otherwise the true religion would have become
polluted.  It happened to the Catholic Church (become polluted that is). 
Rather than your execution, I'd like to see your conversion to Christianity.
--Ray Cote
Xref: sparky talk.rape:2527 alt.folklore.urban:24683
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Videotaping rapes
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:45:51 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Oct1.030420.27735@hubcap.clemson.edu> epohl@hubcap.clemson.edu (Erik Alan Pohl) writes:
>I believe there was a case here in S.C. of marital rape- recently
>(covered on the local news and (oh boy) A Current Affair- not that
>that show helps substantiate my argument) where the husband videotaped
>his sexual congress between he and his wife and that congress supposedly
>did not involve consent from the wife.  The wife, after the trial
>where the husband was aquitted, spoke out against marital rape and
>is considered (by some) to be a martyr for the cause.  She was brave
>enough to go to court.  This was videotaped- does it count?

Dunno -- did the husband sell it to underground distributors as a porn video?
-- 
           .. . . .  .  .   .    .     .     .    .   .  .  . . . ..
          ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu | standard disclaimers
         the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: hughes@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Susan Hughes)
Subject: Re: Lot's daughters
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:58:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct05.174649.28154@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.201147.26553@spdc.ti.com>, hughes@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Susan Hughes) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep30.111833.1@woods.ulowell.edu> cotera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>|> >In article <1992Sep28.235826.24541@cs.ucla.edu>, coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman) writes: 
>|> >> He could have done what was right.  Lot was a scumbag.  The status of the
>|> >> deity who put him up to all of this is left as an exercise for the reader.
>|> >> 
>|> >> Mike
>|> >
>|> >So what you you have him do?
>|> >--Ray Cote
>|> 
>|> In Texas, we'd have Lot and the male angels fight to the death to defend
>|> his daughters; death being better than sacrificing two innocent girls.
>|> Decency/Chivalry and other archaic concepts.
>
>As I recall the story, the assailants wanted to rape Lot's male guests,
>not his daughters.  So presumably your Texas chivalry would have
>Lot and his daughters fighting to the death to defend his guests;
>death being better than sacrificing two innocent men.  Is that what you meant?
>
>-- 
>Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
>IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

No, but what else did I expect from NY? * NOTE-MAJOR :) *
My original comment was a semi-jest; I am not Politically Correct, am
liberated enough for equal work but not so much that I don't enjoy the
benefits of the male over-protective/slightly domineering family I married
into. If they'd been around when I was younger I probably wouldn't be
reading talk.rape. Whether there's merit to the arguement that the same
system that promotes "protecting the women" also contributes to the 
problem of rape via sexism/discrimination; I don't know. 

Regards,
Sue Hughes
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Lot's daughters
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:05:30 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Sep28.092615.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cotera@woods.ulowell.edu 
writes:
> and calm the people down.  When talking didn't work he offered his daughters. 
> He didn't want his daughters to be gang raped, but his guests were more
> important than him or his family.  Before this could happen the angels grabbed
> Lot and brought him back inside.  They then blinded everybody outside.  The
> next morning they destroyed the city.  I hope everyone now understands why Lot
> would give his daughters to the crowd to be raped.
> --Ray Cote

So much for family values and Judeo Christian values.

The question wasn't why Lot offered his daughters, I understood that.  My
question is how you can expect me to take seriously a value system that rules
this to be moral behavior.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Lot's daughters
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 02:05:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.092615.1@woods.ulowell.edu> cotera@woods.ulowell.edu writes:
>Someone asked me a couple of weeks ago about Lot offering his daughters to be
>gang raped.  For those of you not familiar with what I'm talking about, this
>has to do with the Bible.
>     As the story goes, Lot and his family were in the city of Sodom.  He was
>visited by two angels.  They were going to spend the night on the street (the
>next morning they were going to destroy the city), but Lot insisted they stay
>in his house.  This mob of people showed up at the house later and demanded
>that Lot hand over his visitors.  What could he do? He had insisted they stay
>the night, so he was responsible for them.  He went outside, knowing that he
>could be killed or gang raped (the city was filled with homosexuals), to try
>and calm the people down.  When talking didn't work he offered his daughters. 
>He didn't want his daughters to be gang raped, but his guests were more
>important than him or his family.  Before this could happen the angels grabbed
>Lot and brought him back inside.  They then blinded everybody outside.  The
>next morning they destroyed the city.  I hope everyone now understands why Lot
>would give his daughters to the crowd to be raped.

Sure, it's worse to rape male angels than to rape women.

Newsgroups: talk.rape,alt.folklore.urban
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: Importance of claims about snuff porn (was: Videotaping rapes)
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 04:23:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.033333.6122@engage.pko.dec.com> nancyb@os2lan.enet.dec.com (nancy b.) writes:
> > re:  dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
>	If the only proof is that I 'said' I didn't make any claim,
>	it could just be another urban legend!!
Clearly you misunderstand what an "urban legend" is.
Firsthand accounts may be false, but do not fit the FOAF pattern of
an UL.

>	It's intriguing to see the energy with which some people were 
>	vociferously denying their existence, to the point of not
>	even reading my post where _I_ asked for more specific
>	info.  
I read your post.

I don't DENY the existence of "rape films" it merely strikes me
that it looks like the "snuff film" UL.
-Ekr





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
   "Base 8 is just like base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: nancyb@os2lan.enet.dec.com (nancy b.)
Subject: Re: Importance of claims about snuff porn (was:Videotaping rapes)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 04:34:10 GMT

 > re:  dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)

>   Since you say you didn't make any claim, I'll retract my challenge. I
	  ^^^^^^^
	
	I'm surprised at you!  You're relying on something I _said_?

	If the only proof is that I 'said' I didn't make any claim,
	it could just be another urban legend!!  We could get lots
	more posts to a.f.u. (or whatever ;) about this new issue! 

	( OK, I know I should be more gracious about accepting your 
	  retracting your challenge, but on rereading the above
	  the phrase 'you say' kind of caught my eye for _some_
	  reason ;;)

	So that you don't have to rely on what I said, this is the
	original post:

++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: talk.rape