HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:40:45 GMT


In article 17442@discus.technion.ac.il, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.064902.6028@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>
>>In article 18tah5INN88h@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>>
>>>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>>>>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>>>>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and
>>>>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>>>>followers from Europe landed there.
>>>
>>>Always???
>>>
>>>Those Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians are actually either (1)
>>>relatively recent immigrants from nearby Arab countries, generally
>>>attracted to Palestine by the economic opportunities that resulted from the
>>>influx of Jews returning to their homeland, or (2) descendents
>>>of earlier conquerors who kicked the Jews out of their homeland.
>>
>>That's the first time I remember hearing a claim that Palestinians
>>are descended from Romans.  I suppose the occasional centurion might
>>have dropped his jeans, er, genes.
>
>Well, there's no doubt that during the Muslim occupation in the 9th
>century many former inhabitants converted to Islam (they were mostly
>Christian during the Byzantine rule). 

You are quite correct.  That is why it is incorrect to say that the
forebears of the Arab population cannot predate the Arab invasion.
Many of the local people stayed around and gradually assimilated 
into the Arab culture.

> David.

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:37:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.171858.1216@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.064030.2503040@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>>
>>>>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
>>>>targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
>>>>to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY. 
>>>
>>>Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?
>>
>>You are off.  Yes *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.  I am a US CITIZEN FYI.  I pay
>>tax probably a lot more than you do, and contribute to AMERICA'S unity
>>a lot more than you do.
>
>Elghani, we don't need this.  Same to you, Adam.  Our system of
>government does not entitle one to a share of government commensurate
>with how much tax one pays, but rather commensurate with one thing and
>one thing only - the status of an american citizen, with one citizen
>having one vote.

Agreed. This is the first time I tend to agree with Eric Perlman probably.


>>  My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with
>>the saftey of israel like some. 
>
>Of course, Elghani and the rest of the net - with the exception perhaps
>of scum like Jack Schmidling - know that this charge is both insulting
>and totally false.  
>
>I'd take offense, except that I know that Elghani is beyond convincing.
>He doesn't have an open mind.  He won't be convinced when confronted by
>overwhelming evidence.  We on this net know this from experience.

I sure do know you well Eric, and that's why I was surprises that
I agreed with you on one thing.  You are rather known on the NET.
A smilly what's the heck  :)

>Rest deleted.  To answer your question, John, I am American, and Jewish.
>I do not have Israeli citizenship.  Just American.  But I'm very
>insulted by the question, as well as the idiotic connotation you give


No, the initial question is the insulting , and its originator
apologized because he knew it was insulting.  The question I asked
is on the same line; read it again.  Or you only have a one way eye?

>it.  Shades of the classic "dual loyalty" charges levelled by
>anti-Semites in this country and others.

I am neither anti-jewish, anti-arabic, nor  <==> anti-semite.

jle


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Brendan is a racist anti-semitic bigot
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 17:22:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.090801.4842@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:


>I am wondering what is so offensive about accusing someone of dual loyalty,
[...]
>I don't think it is fair to accuse someone of Anti-Semitism simply because
>they question someone's loyalty...especially if that loyalty is well-based
>in ethno-religious similarities.  In fact, I believe 99% of American Jews
>feel a sense of loyalty to Israel and defend Israel out of that loyalty
[...]
>242, it is a fair to suggest that perhaps Goldberg's background and 
>loyalty to his "ancestral home" may certainly play a part in his
>interpretation of 242.

One of the ideals that has made America great is the concept of
fairness.  If you, a German-American convert to Islam, accuse others
of something, it may yet bite back.  

Should Sununu have been kicked out of the White House because his
Arabic background (he has waffled on whether he is Lebanese or
Palestinean) makes him "suspect"?  No.  He was kicked out, and rightly
so, for being arrogant and abusive of power.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:55:27 GMT

In article <22373@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.183800.26495@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>That really isn't saying much, since the definition of "crime" and
>"criminal" is entirely up to the whims of the Israeli occupation forces.

Of course, the definition is also up to the Palestinian death squads
who roam the territories, killing accused collaborators.

>For example, the mere verbal expression of support for the PLO is a
>"crime".  In Israel too, by the way.

You should mention, Yigal, that the PLO supports armed struggle to
wipe Israel off the map.  Says so in their (still unamended) covenant.




Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:00:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.165015.23880@rs.com>, horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
writes:

|>In article 708@dscomsf.desy.de, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
|>writes:
|>>In article <1992Sep6.165554.26010@discus.technion.ac.il>,
|>>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
|>>
|>>|>The Arabs that sat here before the Jews came will be welcome as Israeli
|>>|>citizens (and are welcomed) - they have no national rights here.
|>>
|>>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law
|>is
|>>completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since
|>Soccrates
|>>was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no
|>nations
|>>and there are no states, only individuals.
|>
|>Sorry, but European-style (or any other, for that matter) anarchy has proved 
|>itself in each of the last three centuries to be (a) unworkable, and 
|>(b) unacceptable.

If you had any historical knowlege you would know that three hundred years is
about the time since the invention of the nation state. It is the idea of the
nation state that caused the bloodiest wars of Europe.


|>Don't even *think* that we Israelis are going to repeat you European's
|>mistakes and/or failures, however "noble" they might sound.

You are trying to copy the greatest mistake of British policy ever, the
occupation of Ireland. Machiavellis settlements strategy only works if the
settlers become part of the community in the way that the Romans he cites did.
It does not work when the settlements are merely fortified outposts of the
occupying power. 


|>As for "There are no nations and there are no states, only individuals",
|>well,
|>facile statements like this one only serve to illustrate the naivety,
|>shallowness,
|>and immaturity of your world view.

Why do I repeat vulgar abuse? Because it shows more about the mind of the person
who said it than the person who they are aimed at. Horen is a knee jerk
nationalist, in fact a knee jerk nationalist who lives in the wrong country.
Like all such people their brand of patriotism goes down well at home and badly
in the rest of the world.

If he knew your politics he would know that I was echoing a statement by Margret
Thatcher, "There is no such thing as society, only individuals in society". I
don't suppose he is capable of understanding the ideas behind that statement
either. 

Who was it that was asking for more of the ideas like Ghandis?

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Elgahni spews more hate and bile (Re: JUSTICE/EQUALITY)
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:18:33 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Sep13.032018.2564606@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <18tcn0INNa8d@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:

>>In a previous article, jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) says:

>>Well, at least Israel is a democracy and doesn't prevent demonstrations.

>Democracy?  What in the hell race discrimination is all about.  A European
>Jew treated by the govenment better than Black Jews implies democracy to you?
>How insane!  How sick!

Its not the government, its the religious establishment.  And
Europeams are treated better in the US than are Africans.  Does that
mean the US is not a democracy?

>>Obviously, Israeli hasn't done a perfect job resettling the enormous
>>numbers of immigrants who have come recently.  And the orthodox religious
>
>Allowing none-white immigrants into Occupied Palestine immigrants targets 
>two things:  1- Absorb *OUR AMERICAN MONEY* pretending poverty.

You've become quite the American patriot, for a Lebanese.

>	     2- More people enlarge the potential of Greatest Israel 
>	     to expand into Iraq, Saudi, and hopefuly Mecca and Kuwait (
>	     A land they claim to own).

Who is the "they" in the above sentence?  Analyzing your English, the
"they" appears to reference people.  Not very helpful, so I can't
rebut it.

I can say that no Israeli government has ever implied that Israel had
any hope, whatsoever of controlling Mecca or Kuwait.  The farthest
I've ever heard anyone try to claim was a few tens of kilometers into
Jordan, on the basis of the land 2500 years ago.  But no one seriously
suggested doing anything about that claim; if they had, Jordan would
be a lot smaller than it is today.

Anyway, would you like to back up your claim (2) above, or are you
going to ignore this post, and spew more bile onto the net?


>a few years ago.  Why they don't wish to go to Occupied Palestine (Israel) ,
>you tell me why?

Probably because you, and your ideological buddies open fire with
machine guns, pistols, knives, molotov cocktails, and anything else
you can get your hands on on Israelis, Jews, or anything vaugely
relating to either, like Japanese tourists, Jewish American cripples,
Turkish synagogues, etc.  That scares people.




Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Confederation of the Mountain Peoples
Date: 7 Sep 92 03:13:55 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>      Make up your mind!  I repeat my assertion that Mingrely
>      are Georgians. Period.


What do you mean, Eduard, by your "Period."??
That after your period Georgian (Kartlian) nationalists
will be in rush to congratulate you with your assertion?

I'm in no doubt with it. Still, Mingrelian language, for
instance, is more different from literature Georgian (Kartlian),
than, say, Russian from Polish. What other criteria would you use?
Ethnic self-consciousness? Sorry, couldn't resist: those who are
shy (and understand Russian) may skip next sentence. In public
toilet in Tbilisi I saw the graffiti: "Ya vchera ebal v zhopu
mingrela". Definitely it was intended as an expression of national
superiority (those who want to argue with it, are welcome). Or your
only criteria is soviet/georgian count of people (perepis' naselenia?).

Another common lively picture. Counter (georgian/kartli, of course),
comes in the home of Mingrel (Adzharian, Svan, whatever). The question
from questionnary: ethnicity? Answer: Mingrel (Adzharian, Svan...).
Counter: "Ahhh!" (Untranslatable georgian expression meaning disregard
mixed with disgust), "Kartli!" (The presumably correct answer). Written:
"Kartli". End of scene. The explanation of that is even more simple than
most of readers thought: in Soviet count lists, there were only 128 possible
values for variable "ethicity", while actual number of ethnicities in USSR
was about 200. So, many of ethinicities were not permitted at all to we
written in! Of course, Georgian (Kartli) authorities were doing their best
to make sure that no Mingrelians or, don't even think of, Svans, were
mentioned. (Adzharians were mentioned, though, since they had their own
ASSR, but last (1979) count showed NO Adzharians!!!). Perfect example
of genocide: ask Mutlu; I'm almost sure Armenians and Greeks did it,
especially since there are a lot of Greeks in Adzharia, and many Armenians,
too!

Actually, that was the same algorithm working, that I have described above.
I also remember vividly, as in 1988, at the best times of perstroika, the
whole very respectful bunch of Georgian academicians and professors, with
lots of titles, honours, etc., wrote a furious letter to "Literaturnaya
gazeta", where some person dared to suggest that Svans are different nation,
than Georgians. Letter (almost half of newspaper's page) was respectfully
printed with apologies. For reference: Svans in fact have _four_ different
"dialects", which are in fact different languages, differing from one another
as much as Slavic languages between themselves, and all those "dialects"
differ from Georgian (doesn't even matter, Kartli, Mingrelian or Lazic
("Adzharian")) almost as much as Russian from Latvian or Lithuanian!!

D.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: democratic Estonia
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 22:29:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.084619.23028@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
>"talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>
>>  So now, at long last, Jarmo understood that Estonia & Latvia
>>have taken a honorable place not among the more or less
>>civilized european nations but rather among such thriving "democracies"
>>as Uzbekistan and Azerbajdzhan. That was also my point, Jarmo.
>
>We hear a lot of complaints about 'human rights violations' in Estonia
>and Latvia when there is little evidence of any 'ethnic cleansing'.
>At the same time nobody is paying attention to what is happening
>to human rights in other ex-Soviet republics.
>
>There has been a lot of 'sympathy' for the 'poor suffering Russians'
>in the Baltics, but the same people who criticize Balts seldom have
>anything to say about Tadjiks or Kazakhs.

  It's good enough already, that Balts have such wonderful
opportunity to take as an example the Tadjiks and Kazakhs.
Why didn't the convert to Islam for full similarity ?
But ! Both Tadjiks and Kazakh goverments have granted
citizenship to ALL residents of their republics automatically !
Unlike supposely more "democratic" Estonia.

  Serega & Co
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Abkhazians in Abkhazia
Date: 5 Sep 92 16:46:18 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu) writes:
))	Moreover, Abkhaz constitute
))      no more than 15% (or thereabouts) of the population of
))      Abkhazia.
)
)And this is also bullshit. (I'll write the exact number next time
)I get near the library :)

The number which usually is mentioned in Swedish papers is 11% (or
is it 17?).
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad
Date: 7 Sep 92 18:32:43 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:38:59 GMT
>From: Jarmo Ryyti <ryyti@JYU.FI>

>Just of curiosity I took from my files a russian visa blank-sheet, I have many
>of them and SUPRISE SUPRISE  on the first line is asked the nationality
>and on the second line citizenship. So the russian authorities are very
>much distinguishing people by the nationality?

I don't know what visa sheet you are talking about, but if, for instance,
it is one written in English, so "nationality" means 'country of residence',
and then "citizenship" is something different. When you are saying it being
the first line, it's probably the case. "Ethnicity" ("natsional'nost'") was
always fifth line in Soviet blank-sheets:-). Actually, I doubt that Russian
authorities are so much interested in ethnicity of forein citizens. (Every-
thing is posssible with x-soviet bureaucracy, though.)

> Regards,
>Jarmo Ryyti

Dmitry
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 22:34:46 GMT

In article <2500@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
>in article <Bu0FsM.7A7@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) says:
>> 
>>     Should then Dr.Mengele become an Honorary Member of NAS
>>     because of the unique medical experiments he conducted
>>     in the Nazi concentration camps?
>
>If X is already a member of NAS, and then he turns out to be a 
>killer/rapist/scam/racist/idiot,  he still should NOT be expelled from
>NAS because of that.

Wait a second. Let me ask you. Can a convicted killer/rapist/scam/racist
become an HONORARY member of the NAS? If so, then you are right: both
mengele and Shafarevich should be Honorary Memebrs of the NAS.

But if NAS does not accept  killer/rapist/scam/racist (s) into their
Honorary ranks, then it is only logical that an Honorary member of NAS who
later becomes a  killer/rapist/scam/racist, should be expelled from the
Academy. 

As far as "idiots" are concerned, who are we to judge?

>Otherwise NAS will turn itself into a court.

Oh, really? Try the folowing trick: go to any company and apply for a job
there. get the job offer from them, and tehn tell tehm that you are a
 killer/rapist/scam/racist. Do you think they will withdraw their job
offer? If they do, do they act as "a court"? How about many politicians who
got fired from their jobs for little misdemeaners? Do you think a
public official, who turns out to be a  killer/rapist/scam/racist, can be
fired?

>Za nedostojnoje povedenije, iskljuchit' tovarishcha Shafarevicha iz
>rjadov nashej slavnoj NASticheskoj partii!
>
>BTW, NAS is not EXPELLING him.
>They only ASK him to leave NAS "po sobstvennomu zhelaniju".

Ili, kak by skazal Shafarevich, "Za knigi Vasilia Grossmana, kotorye mne ne
nraviatsa, iznasilovat' vsekh zhidovok goroda Moskvy!" :-)

Vlad

Employer disagrees
From: vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (Vadim S. Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:33:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.071638.14660@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne  
Kivel{) writes:
> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
> 
> >The situation is dangerous ALREADY.
> >Don't Baltic goverments realize that by discriminating minorities
> >they go in direction of the Yugoslavian variant?
> 
> But who is the Milosevic of Russia? Rutshkoi?
> 
Bylo by koryto, a svin'i naidutsya!  (Find a trough, and pigs will find
themselves).

Seriously, when you have am explosive ethnic situation like in Bosnia,
you do not need a fascist like a Milosevic to start a war, it may blow
up all by itself, and unless there is an anti-war party with real power
to stop the fighting, it will continue to get worse and worse.

I think Yeltzin does not want a war in/with Estonia or Latvia, but if
it starts anyway, would he be able to stop it?  I doubt it.

Most likely, Estonia will drive its Russian population to a Transdnistrian
solution -- an armed revolt against Estonian government.  Local Russians
will make a government of their own and proclaim a "Narva respublic"
(or whatever strikes their fancy) and incorporating all areas without a
clear Estonian majority.  The Russian armed forces in Estonia would not
intervene at this stage, but they would prevent the Estonians from forcefully
supressing the rebels -- by intimidation, or if necessary, by open force.
The end result -- Estonia with a mostly Estonian population, but also
with a much-truncated territory.

Of course, things can get much WORSE than the above scenario.  For example,
Estonia's Russians may get some really nutty leaders who would try to take
over the whole of Estonia and start a full-scale Civil War.  If the Russian
army then gives them full support, Estonia is as good as dead-(.  If they
don't, we will have another Bosnia-(-(.

And if you think it does not come any worse than this, think what would
happen if in the midst of a Civil War somebody steals a nuke......

---
Vadim S. Kaplunovsky               | vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (internet)
Assistant Professor of Physics,    | VADIM AT UTAPHY (bitnet)
University of Texas at Austin.     | UTSPAN::UTAPHY::VADIM (SPAN/HEPnet Decnet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Confederation of the Mountain Peoples
From: verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Sep 92 05:55:55 EDT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <715542639@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
>
>Mikhail Verbitsky writes:
>
>>There are four kinds of different ethnic peoples in Abkhazia:
>>Georgian-Mingrels (~20-30%) - supporters of Gamsahurdia,
>>"real" Georgians - (~10-20%) - supporters of Tbilisi goverment
>>Russians (~10-20%) - well, they are trying to move away now,
>>       and support nobody in particular
>>Abkhazians (~30-40%) - support Sukhumi goverment.

>      Mingrelians are one of many subgroups which make up
>      the Georgian nation.  They should not be distinguished
>      from "real" (!!) Georgians.  

I bet you never was in Georgia :) Georgians hate Mingrels
almost as much as Russians - Jews. They say that Mingrels are,
actually, Georgian Jews. They also blame Beria's atrocities on his
Mingrelian ancestry and say that he hate Georgians because of that.

Of course, Gamsakhurdia enemies blame his sins on Mingrels,
since he and his supporters are all Mingrels. Note that they could
be easily distyinguished from Georgians by their appearence,
and you'll get the whole picture.

>	Moreover, Abkhaz constitute
>      no more than 15% (or thereabouts) of the population of
>      Abkhazia.

And this is also bullshit. (I'll write the exact number next time
I get near the library :)

Misha.