HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W J Frames
Date: 30 Aug 92 23:12:59 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug23.004913.10857@megatek.uucp> zymurgy.megatek!avf@uunet.UU.NET (Andy Funk) writes:
#
#I've recently aquired a Smith & Wesson Model 60 J Frame .38 Special
#revolver. 
#
#My problem is that I'm unhappy with the snag factor of the hammer. What I'd
#like is another hammer similar to the Colt rounded commander style. I
#originally thought of welding one up, but am unsure of how critical the
#weight factor is.
#
#I chose the M60 (stainless version of the M36) because I wanted to be able
#to take advantage of the nice S&W single action trigger.

I've seen these bobbed by gunsmiths. You do have to careful not to remove
too much weight of the hammer will be too light to consistently
detonate primers.

#The M640, I think, is double action only because of it's hidden hammer, so I
#passed this one up.

It is DA only with a concealed striker.

#While perusing the S&W catalogs, I ran across an optional bobbed hammer
#called the NYPD*SP. Has anyone seen this hammer? How bobbed is it? can this
#be replaced by a RKI, or should I contact the factory? It's about 33 bucks.

You know, this really galls me. In 1988, Smith and Wesson sent out
surveys to their best customers <6 in that year, I suppose qualified me>.
My dealer in Philadelphia was a Smith distributor and been sent 15
M60 with bobbed hammers with frames marked NY-1. After selling 9 <including
1 to me> Smith called frantically and said part of a shipment bound for
New York City Detectives had been mistakenly sent and demanded the guns 
back. Too late for the 9. When I got my survey, I suggested that they
make these guns for general sale. I also recommended that that they
make the old M40 on a M60 frame in stainless without the grip safety.
A year or so later, guess what 2 guns are added to the line. Now,
maybe I wasn't the only one who suggested the M40/M60 marriage but
how many people could have the NY-1 guns? They could, at least, have
said "thanks". BTW, I think the gun with the bobbed hammer already
installed <like my NY-1> was withdrawn fron production because the 
M640 eclipsed it in sales.

#Also, I'm revisiting the M649. It's kind of ugly, but if it can be cocked
#for single action, then maybe that's what I wanted in the first place. Does
#anyone have one of these?

It can be cocked for single action. Only the hammer serations are exposed.
I had one, but hated how that shround collected dust and lint. Go with
the 640, after all, Smith did after I suggested it.



-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm vs .38
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:09:00 GMT



# 	A friend of mine keeps insisting that in terms of knockdown
# power, the .38 will outclass a 9mm.  Does anybody have any data or
# comparisons between the two that they could send me?  I'd really
# appreciate it.

Your friend is definitely wrong. From Evans Marshall's statistics, the
.38 Spal, even the +P+ ones are on the same performance level than the
.380. In other words, they have a probability of at most 0.70 of
single shot stops, while a 9mm Para silvertip has 0.79 and some +P+ ammo
have up to 0.88 chances.


Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  |     or: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
MA-Ecublens                               | Standard Disclaimer
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: infmx!jupiter.noname!bobd@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Dodge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What's the best pocket-sized gun?
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:32 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc. Lenexa, Ks. Division


	One question I have along these lines involves the most effective caliber for this 
type of weapon.  .22 doesn't seem like much.  From what I have seen, the .25 Auto round looks
like it would just irritate someone.  How effective are the .380 and .32 rounds I saw mentioned.
If (God forbid) I should ever need one of these,  I am going to be fearing for my life,  and I
wouldn't want to have the to worry about someone getting up and putting the barrel of the weapon
up my butt after it was empty.
	I really would like to hear some opinions on this.  I have considered a pocket gun
for a while, but always assumed I would have more knock down power with a good rock.  
	Thanks in advance for your time.
---
Bob Dodge, Informix Software, Inc., Lenexa, Ks. Division USA 
           [pyramid|uucp]!infmx!bobd  bobd@informix.com
	  - any opinions are my own -
From: clb@mistxt.oc.com (Chris Boyd)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Which P-7 to use at Gunsite?
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:38:14 GMT
Organization: OpenConnect Systems, Dallas, TX

burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
#I would always prefer the thumb release.  Most of the drills that you will
#at the class will probably lean toward it.  I would also consider using
#one with a Teflon coating, or maybe Stainless or hardchrome...
#Cause when you show up at Gunsite with a "European Wonder Nine" (much as
#I like 'em, mine's a Glock) he's gonna want to shove it up your... nevermind.
#The Teflon will make it less painful but the Stainless or chrome will save
#the gun finish.

So what does Col. Cooper think of the Glock 21 .45 ACP?

(* Chris Boyd          OpenConnect Systems, Inc.          clb@oc.com *)
(*  2033 Chennault, Carrollton TX 75006, USA. Real close to Dallas   *)
(*       I have no right to speak for others, only for myself.       *)
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CA gun laws -- in cars (waS Re: Travelling help)
Date: 29 Aug 92 13:50:24 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
#I live in California, and I have a question about transporting a
#gun while riding a motorcycle.  Is there any way to legally do this?
#With a car, you can lock it in the trunk.  What if you don't have
#a trunk?  And what about rifles?  Would a locked case be good enough
#for transporting them?

Put it in a locked case.  Simple.  Long guns will attract a bit more
attention than a handgun though, so be forewarned.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : crash!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@crash.cts.com  |
 ** UUCP    : crash!jca          |           SIG-Sauer P228
 */
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: In Quest of Quiet ... what makes a quiet gun?
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:19:50 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Aug24.193528.7961@btree.uucp>, by btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale):
# In article <1992Aug22.000644.18959@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# #I'm hoping to find out what makes for a quiet 'report' from a gun.
# 
# [ much deleted ]
# 
# If you live in a state that allows, get a suppressor.  Unfortunately,
# from your address, it looks like you are in California so this probably
# isn't an option.
# 
# Use the longest barrel that you can reasonably handle, avoid all
# the magnum rounds, and go for a bullet/powder combination that
# peaks its pressure quickly and falls to a low level by the time
# that the bullet reaches the muzzle.
#

I have noticed in Silhouette shooting that long barreled Browning
Buckmarks (are they all Buckmarks?) and Anshutz (they only come
long barreled) pistols are very quiet.  .22 rifles are also, in
general, very quiet.  Bolt actions and self-loaders seem quieter
than revolvers in pistols.  
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Opinions sought on Ruger Mini 14/30
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:59 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <Btx8Dz.BsK@hsi.com> bobwest%code3@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Westover) writes:
#In article <1992Aug31.043406.8591@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
...
##me...irrational, I know. If I can't have an AR-15, I'll stick to my
##Mini-14. 
#	As long as it functions, it's better than throwing rocks.

Well, I have put up to 200 rounds through it in less than an hour, and it
still functions flawlessly--it's just the point of impact that changes. In
fact, the only time I've experienced a failure to function with this rifle
was when I diddled with the extractor spring to try to eliminate brass
damage--and that went away as soon as I put in an original spring.

Somebody else commented on the accuracy of his Mini-14 (I think he
complained of four inch groups at fifty yards). My rifle seems to do
considerably better than this--I consistently shoot under 2" at that range
from a sandbag rest. My smaller groups are right around an inch. I'm still
fooling around with different loads, so I can't claim to have reached the
accuracy limit of my rifle. Still, I can say it's definitely not a sniper
rifle, but accurate enough for a defense weapon. (But if you want a sniper
rifle, an AR-15 isn't the thing to get either.)


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky rec.guns:12550 talk.politics.guns:20439
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: In Quest of Quiet ... what makes a quiet gun?
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:39 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <9208252346.AA03767@nuc.Utah.univel.COM> Thi_Huynh@univel.COM 
(Thi Huynh) writes:

#The use of longer barrel does not necessarily allows the gun to be more
#quiet.  A longer barrel allows more complete powder burning, which in
#turn MAY produce higher pressure at the muzzle.  In automatic weapons 
#(especially ones which use a straight blow-back design) longer barrel 
#may allow the action to open quicker, thus high pressure gas can escape.
#In these blow-back guns, bullets can reach supersonic velocity in a
#longer barrel.  All of these contribute to a louder gun.

Certainly a longer barrel contributes to more complete burning but I
think the fact that it also makes for a greater expansion ratio 
overides this effect with the net result that muzzle pressure falls as 
barrel length is increased.  So there will be more gas to make noise
but it will be at a lesser and hence quieter pressure.  

A longer barrel can cause gas escape in a blowback and similar guns
merely because the barrel time of the bullet is greater.  We're talking 
a _very_ much longer barrel here, of course.

#All these factors need to be considered when putting a silencer onto a
#gun.  If you want to silence submachine guns or machine pistols, it is
#better to do it with a short barrel.

I would guess that you'd want a shorter barrel primarily because this
is one way to get a subsonic bullet.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm information needed
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:20:20 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <13400027@iftccu.boeing.com>, bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
#Secondly, if you look at the characteristics  of successful semi auto rounds, 
#you will find that they all have some things in common.  Most important 
#is that they are all relatively 'stubby' rounds.  

	counter example: the 9mm has a larger length/case-diameter ration than
	the 10mm 
	9mm : 3.026
	10mm: 2.976

#The design of the 10, (relatively long, straight sided  etc.)  make it 
#inherently less reliable in an auto.  

	Yes, the lack of body taper may have a larger effect on reliability,
	but the 45acp similarly has very little body taper.
-c
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $690 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: pnr0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PAUL N. RITTER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Should my first handgun be a .22? (Too wimpy for defense?)
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:37:45 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


  In article <1992Aug20.192826.16790@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, andy@sail.stanfor
d.edu (Andy Freeman) writes:
#In article <1992Aug19.141118.21990@news.yale.edu> swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Al
an Watt) writes:
##The original post lists requirements which are mutually exclusive.
#
#Yup.
#
##Let's stick to the requirement for "learning to shoot a handgun".
#
#In particular, let's stick to the version that implies ".22";
#there are other versions which don't.
#
##For this purpose, the .22 rimfire excells and nothing else really comes close.
##Basically, a decent .22 is inexpensive to purchase and maintain, downright
##cheap to feed, and the low recoil and blast noise (a) reduce flinch, and (b)
##make any flinch obvious to see.
#
#If that's the criteria, there's an even better choice, a good air gun.
#Air guns have lots of "not a gun" advantages.  (Air gun restrictions
#are never stricter than those for guns.)  For target work, the lack of
#range can be taken care of by going with smaller targets.
#
   I don't know about your area, but in mine, you CANNOT shoot an airgun in
   the city. The charge is "discharging a firearm within the city limits". I
   am an officer here, and the crime rate isn't too bad. Don't get me
   wrong....it isn't exactly Heaven here, but not too bad. As for the above
   statement about the severity of restrictions, he's wrong. At least in our
   case. The BEST thing to do is to contact your city police station and talk
   to a SUPERVISOR (Sergent, Captain, Lt., Chief) about the regulations in
   your city, burough, township, etc. Only THEY can give you the most
   up-to-date/accurate info on the matter. Claiming that "you didn't know..",
   won't help you. A teenager was arrested for target practicing with a
   paintball airgun. Nothing to it... just painting his dad's garage door(on
   HIS OWN property), and was charged as I indicated. NEVER go by what
   "friends" say....It can get you [both] into deep doo-doo.





#Don't get me wrong, I like .22s.  However, if you believe in the
#criteria that suggest that .22s are the best choice for learning
#shooting, you've just talked yourself into an air gun.  (I think that
#there are other factors, factors which EXCLUDE .22s.)
#
#-andy
#--
#UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
#ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
#
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:20:38 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <23032@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa) writes:
#Just going into a gun range is not a crime and if they can not see
#any guns then they can not assume that you have one. It would be
#interesting to see what would happen if you went in with a large
#bag/case that did not have any guns and refused to let them take
#a look at it. When it was found out that there were no guns involved
#what would their excuse be?

The local police tell me that carrying a gun in a gun case (either a
rug or a hard case) is not carrying concealed because the case
clearly indicates what the contents are.  Warning! Not every officer,
department, or jurisdiction will see things this way.

Since the case creates the presumption of a firearm they would have
sufficient reason to demand to inspect it, at least in this area.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm information needed
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:37 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
...
#I have no doubt that the 10 will continue to have a loyal following for
#some time.  I happen to like .44spl, but that does not change the fact
#that advancing technology has pretty much obsoleted it for defense
#purposes.  
...
	Obsoleted by lack of consumer interest, more accurately.  There 
is _nothing_ a .45 ACP or .40 S&W can do that the .44 Special can't be
loaded to do.   The fact that better commercial loads aren't developed 
is due merely to less consumer pressure to do so.

#I stand by my opinion that a newcomer choosing between the .40 and 10mm
#would be better served by choosing the .40S&W.

I don't see that there is much difference, aside from a wider choice
of guns in .40.

	>Rick.
Jim Del Vecchio
From: breslau@watson.ibm.com (Art Breslau)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 13mm Mauser T-gewer
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:56:48 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Thanks for all the online/offline mail. Decided to put on a .50 cal bbl and save
the original bbl.
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:12:01 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <5871@transfer.stratus.com>, tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
# 
# In article <1992Aug24.224445.20992@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, tas@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tom Sprott) writes:
# # His original federal weapons law
# # violation was the possession of a sawed-off shotgun.  What is the purpose of 
# # such a gun, and why is it illegal where a normal shotgun isn't?
# 
# The actual definition is
#    a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and
#    any weapon mode from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or
#    otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than
#    26 inches.
# 
# As to why it's illegal - the shorter something is, the easier it is to
# conceal. I believe the dispersal pattern of the shot is also a lot wider
# with a short barrel. The original law on the subject was implemented in
# the '30s, when short-barrelled shotguns were in vogue with organized
# crime - so the reasons may have more to do with who was using them than
# what the weapons actually did.

My guess is that a 28" barrell with a rifle stock can be mighty difficult
to manuver inside a vehicle: a very short shotgun is much easier to swing
up to aim from a concealed postion (even an 18" with pistol grips can
be somewhat awkward to manuever within very close quarters.)

# Interestingly enough, this is the only provision of the GCA or NFA that I
# know to have made it to the supreme court; The supreme court upheld the NFA
# in ruling that short-barelled shotguns were not normal militia equipment.

Negativmo!  The SC ruled that no evidence of a short-barrelled shotgun having
a militia use had been presented: No big surprise considering that Miller
was either deceased/locked up/didn't care to be there.  

I've also read that the SC gave Miller the opportunity to show in lower 
courts that there was a militia use for short barrelled shotguns, but
since charges were never re-filed, Miller never got the chance.
-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New M1A report and questions
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:08:08 GMT
Organization: who knows

In article <1684F14468.HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, you write...
#   It's been awhile, but I've finally got my M1A and thought I'd let
#you all know how I made out.

Is the M1A, restricted under the new the laws of Canada?

# 
#  Also, what would people suggest as useful/essential aids for prone
#shooting?   A good sling comes to mind and a spotting scope will
#save me some running around, but what else would I require?
#I'm at a loss for finding coaching locally, so it's just me, my patience
#and what tips I can pick up from books and here.
#  Any and all advice on service rifle shooting would be greatly
#apreciated.

Send a request to the USAMU for their Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide which
is a great intro to match shooting:

Commander
USAMU
Fort Benning, GA 31905

Other good books are by James Sweet (Australian) and John Jackson (Canadian).
I don't have Sweet's book title now but Jackson's book is "Success in Prone
Target Shooting -Skill and Coaching Aids". Both books are paperback and should
be less than $15.  These books should be a good start on conventional target
shooting.  The NRA has a good book called "Competitive Shooting", I think,
which is great treatise on International style shooting.
From: storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu (Mutant Wierdness)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: F.I.E. model E22 .22 cal Manual WANTED
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University

I have recently been given ( no way I BOUGHT this thing) a MOD. E22 F.I.E.
.22 cal. auto pistol. I am not sure but I think that F.I.E. went out of
business. I Would like to get a manual for it. If anyone has an old manual
or knows anyway of getting one, please email me ; storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu  .

It was given to me because it was having trouble loading the shells into the 
proper position from the clip. I have improved it a little, but would like
a manual. It really needs a new clip too. I know F.I.E. never made superb
guns anyways, but anything would be helpful.
thanks....

      storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
# storm@atlantis.cs.orst.edu                                                  #
# storm@jacobs.cs.orst.edu               Disclaimer: I will deny everything   #
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defens
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:43 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In <5354.78.uupcb@cutting.hou.tx.us> jim.wray@cutting.hou.tx.us (Jim Wray) writes:

#Am I over-reacting to a "non-problem"?

	No, unfortunately, you are not over-reacting and it is clearly
not a non-problem. Even more unfortunately, Mr. Kepler's story is not
at all unusual;. I deal with such things virtually all the time.Tales
of police abuse horrors and/or law-abiding citizens becoming ensnarled
in the legal system to near financial and emotional ruination or worse
are well-known to many of us with personal knowledge of case after
case after case, ad naseum.

	My best advice is to learn what to do and what to avoid doing
prior to, during, and following a deadly confrontation, and
incorporate those things into you lifestyle with extreme diligence. Do
not make statements, generally and specifically never to the police in
connection with such an incident until you have first consulted a
lawyer knowledgeable in both criminal and weapons law.
-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713