HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:02:44 GMT

sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu writes:
>Also, has no one noticed that (when she gives up fighting and marries) she
>marries a man who wasn't all that enamoured with fighting to begin with?

Tolkien states that she did not inherently like battle, but was simply
living out her desire for the glory of the House of Eorl and because she
felt trapped and useless.  She was surrounded by people who were honoured,
and basically felt "well, I wanna be useful, so I'll go out in combat.  If
I lose, what does it matter, as long as I die well".

When she had a change of heart, she realized that she was "barren and cold",
basically frigid in more ways than one.  She was just acting out of
depression and perceived uselessness.  When she gave this up, she gained
back herself.  She was still courageous and forward, but she gained kindness,
love, and an understanding of herself.

Personally I get the impression that if Theoden had not been persuaded into
cowardice by Wormtongue, Eowyn would not have considered going into battle.
As it was, she had no respect for the House of Eorl and wanted to not be the
serving-girl of a coward king.  Any escape, be it marriage to someone who
could do a noble deed, or even doing a noble deed herself, was welcomed.
She considerd her position "ignoble" and thus wanted out any way possible.
When Aragorn did not return her affections, she just wanted to die, because
she could not tolerate being the "ignoble niece of the king" any longer.
She wanted to be useful, in any way she could, and in wartime, that meant
going into battle.

She discovered her mistake.  You don't have to go to war to be useful.
There are other things that you can do in life and still have honour.

Rambling:  Are you rambling?  Yes.  Am I rambling?  Yes.  Are we making
sense?  I hope so...

>| Steven A. McCluney >| sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: crosby@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Matthew Crosby)
Subject: Re: Rivendell
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:51:03 GMT

In article <h_m2+pj@rpi.edu> woodam@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew G. Woodard) writes:
>What ever happened to Rivendell, and Lorien, after the passing of the
>ringbearers to the west?  Before the war, these places were havens for
>those fighting Sauron.  What did they become after the war?  Throughout
>the books, Rivendell is referred to as a place where great healing can
>take place....both in body and mind.  Is this due to Elrond's ring, or
>simply because the person is surrounded by the elvish kind?
>

In The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, after king Elessar (A.K.A Aragorn) died, it
is said that Arwen went and dwelt in Lorien, where the leaves where now falling,
and none dwelt, and finally died.  Thus, I would say that this indicates 
that the power of the the elves slowly faded away from these places, and that
they where in fact abandoned.

While I'm here, I found it interesting that Tolkien described Galadriel as
having "Passed away"...ie, gone over the sea.  I considered it rather
interesting terminology.


-- 
-Matt
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the net!!!!
mcrosby@nyx.cs.du.edu     or     crosby@cs.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu ()
Subject: Re: Witch-King stabbed in the back! :) 
Reply-To: jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu ()
Organization: Chemistry Department, SUNY at Stony Brook, NY
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:44:06 GMT


	Good answer ! You got him !!   ;-)  

			
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:50:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.093243.17296@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
|> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
|> >	And she also cops out at the end and decides that she would be
|> >content just to marry a nobleman.  She starts off as a "battling woman," but
|> >she renounces that status and ends up simply being a noble female for Faramir

|> Yes, Eowyn marries. So does Faramir. So does Aragorn. So did Beren, and
|> Hurin, and Tour. Even Tulkas is married. Why is it a cop-out for Eowyn
|> to marry?

And even more to the point, both Eowyn and Faramir are depicted as warriors
by circumstance whose true inner desires are for a more pastoral existence.
Their love and marriage was not a case of of forcing Eowyn into the passive
role, but rather both of them together renouncing their former warlike pasts.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:03:41 GMT

>>>1) In Tolkein's world, women (adult females of any sentient race) are not 
         ^^^^^^^
>Why do people keep doing this? If you don't know how to spell the name, you


>Hurin, and Tour. Even Tulkas is married. Why is it a cop-out for Eowyn
            ~~~~


OOPS !

I guess anyone can make a slip of the figner.  ;-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: NCR Corp., Columbia SC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 12:55:42 GMT

In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
>structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
>#2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?  How is all that determined?
>I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>Fire"?
>
>Jeff

I am guessing that the color of a wizard's clothing has little to do with his 
or her status on the White Council. After all, it is not clear how Galadriel or
Elrond ranked. More than likely, status was higher for those who were more 
ambitious, smooth talking, and to some degree stronger- but not necessarily 
wiser (thus Galadriel's preference for Gandalf over Saruman). Also, the White
of Gandalf is something much more than the white of Saruman in his beginning.

As far as Gandalf's declaration as a "servant of the Secret Fire", I think
it refers to the Secret Fire that burns in the heart of Arda and thus to Eru.
Gandalf is proclaiming his dedication to his cause and his unflagging opposition
to the Balrog.
From: rkao@sgi2 (Rowland Kao)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Date: 16 Dec 1992 20:04:54 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics & Statistics, Univ. of Guelph
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgi2.mathstat.uoguelph.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Julian C. Lander (jclander@texas.mitre.org) wrote:

: In article <Bz7K13.DDu@umassd.edu>, s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
: |>   Arogorn lived for 210 years. he ruled for six-score years. This
: |> makes you wonder how old he was physically rather than chronologically
: |> when compared to the average man not of the Dunedain. What do you 
: |> think?

: There is some discussion of the aging process of the Dunedain in one
: of the early Christopher Tolkein edited JRRT books.  It's either 
: _Unfinished Tales_ (most likely) or one of the _Book of Lost Tales_
: volumes.

. (various text deleted) ...  From then to about 190, he aged
: the equivalent of about 40 years (20 to 60), so roughly 1/5 the rate of
: "normal" people.  Then from 190 to 210 he aged from 60 to 80 (or so) and died.
: These numbers of conjecture; I made the breaks (at 20 and 60) up myself.

: Julian C. Lander
: jclander@mitre.org

Remember that one of the gifts to the Numenorean kings (Numenoreans in
general?) was the ability to chose to pass on before the inevitable onset
of old age.  Thus when Aragorn died he was probably in complete command
of his mental faculties, and was in better physical shape than an average
human of age 80.  One of the signs of corruption in the Royal House of 
Numenor was when the kings clung to life 'til the end.
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:32:43 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:


>In article <1992Dec11.155406.7750@ra.msstate.edu> paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
>>Julian C. Lander writes:
>>>1) In Tolkein's world, women (adult females of any sentient race) are not 
         ^^^^^^^
Why do people keep doing this? If you don't know how to spell the name, you
only need to look at the name of the group.
>>>heroic in the sense of fighting battles and returning trophies.  Men are.
>>>The only "battling woman" in any sense at all is Luthien, 
>>> 
>>
>>Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
>>army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
>>*male* hobbit though :)
>>

>	And she also cops out at the end and decides that she would be
>content just to marry a nobleman.  She starts off as a "battling woman," but
>she renounces that status and ends up simply being a noble female for Faramir
>to marry--  ultimately occupying the same functional role that Arwen does
>for Aragorn.  The message imparted by Eowyn really seems to be that women
>may want to go out in the world and be active like men are, but that ultimately
>they'd really be more content just to get married and concern themselves with
>domestic affairs.

Yes, Eowyn marries. So does Faramir. So does Aragorn. So did Beren, and
Hurin, and Tour. Even Tulkas is married. Why is it a cop-out for Eowyn
to marry?

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Witch-King and various other undead
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:55:25 GMT

paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
>Yeah, all the REAL MEN either died on the spot or ran away. :)
>Thorongil

True enough.

Ever notice that in Lord of the Rings, none of the undead ever identifiably
killed anyone?  The Barrow-Wight and the Ringwraiths presumably wanted
to either force hopelessness on people or turn them into undead.  The
Ringwraths never harmed anyone, and neither did the Dead of Erech.  The
Unseen Watchers of Minas Morgul also didn't seem to be able to do anything.
Only Theoden's horse was killed by the RingWrath Lord.  Strange that such
weapons of terror never killed anyone directly.  As Tolkien says, through
a recount by Gimli, the Dead didn't need weapons because none could
withstand them (their fear aura).

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Witch-King stabbed in the back! :) 
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:25:51 GMT

Andrew Jackson writes:
>>Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
>>army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
>>*male* hobbit though :)
>>Thorongil
>
>Yeah, she got help all right. That slimy little worm couldn't face
>him like a REAL MAN and had to stab him in the back! Good guys
>indeed! ;-)

Yeah, all the REAL MEN either died on the spot or ran away. :)

Thorongil
From: jjas@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu (Jason Stephenson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:31:03 GMT
Organization: Boston University Information Technology Boston, MA USA
In-reply-to: genetic+@pitt.edu's message of 14 Dec 92 22:28:29 GMT

Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
>And what
>about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
>Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?

Thus spoke genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave):
Not a linguist, but...

"Oldest and fatherless" is how it is rendered in the text.  "Oldest, son of
none" might be more literal.  (Corrections?)

Thus speak I:
No corrections, just wanted to state my agreement with Dr. Dave.
"Oldest son of none (or no one)" would not only be more literal, but
more poetic.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 20:45:39 GMT

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>>series (I have MANY times) you should notice that _every_ character settles
>>down after their role is finished. 
>	I'm sure we've all read LOTR many times, Kendall, and are very aware
>of the workings of the narrative.  And I don't think it's accurate to say that
>_every_ character settles down to a peaceful domestic existence. Frodo sure
>doesn't--  nor does Bilbo, Gandalf, or the great majority of the Elves.  

I'd have to disagree here.
Gandalf does "settle down" VERY much.  He takes the position of "welcome
guest" and his main activity later on is to have a long talk with Bombadil
and laugh every time he gets the chance.
Frodo does settle down to a domestic existence as much as any bachelor can.
He takes in Sam and Rosie, and cares for them as his extended family (sort
of like an uncle).  
Bilbo "retires" early on and his existence is usually peaceful -- what do you 
expect from a 130-year-old hobbit?
The Elves go to the Havens and sail away.  In other words, they move their
home to another land, across the Sea, because their home in Middle-Earth
is doomed to fail.

>Merry and Pippin don't settle down in the actual course of the narrative--  
>they remain vassals of Rohan and Gondor respectively and, unlike Sam, Faramir,
>and Aragorn, remain arms-carrying bachelors through the last chapter...

although their arms are used only for display after the War of the Ring.
Their main occupation is throwing parties and singing songs as they wander
through the Shire, and visiting their friends.

>Legolas and
>Gimli certainly never "settle down" in either the story or the appendices. 	

Legolas is filled with the wanderlust of the Elves and sails away after
a time.  Gimli establishes the Glittering Caves colony, becoming in effect
the lord-founder of a dwarf colony, which is about as domestic as Dwarves get.
Later he sails away with Legolas.

>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Remember that LoTR is primarily about the War of the Ring, and not about
Frodo, Samwise, Gandalf, or anyone else.  As the War concludes, characters
fade into the background one by one.  It is not unexpected that most characters
will only be mentioned with functions centering around the War of the Ring.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:52:54 GMT

Ha. Almost forgot. The DG MV/8000 was code-named "Eagle", so one of
the first ones delivered to OS QA was named "Gwaihir". It's been 
retired a long time. There was a "gollum" also, and probably others.

There's a machine on the Intergraph net named "frodo". OK, just a 
minute, dig dig ... also bilbo, gondor, hobbits, ranger (ambiguous).
There's also a "sam" but I doubt it refers to Gamgee.

-- Craig Presson
  "This tale grew in the telling ..."

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:33:31 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:


>Another good series: The Prydain Chronicles.  The books are (if memory
>serves correctly) "The Book of Three", "The Black Cauldron", "The
>Castle of Lyr", "Taran Wanderer", and another one which has a name that
>escapes me.  They would fall under the "young adult" category, but they
>are excellent.  The books are basically a coming-of-age saga about the
>pretty good.
I second this. They are worth reading.
Cheers, Henrik
From: mapmef@gdr.bath.ac.uk (M E Fletcher)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:25:31 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In the referenced article, mmay@mizar.usc.edu (Marlin May) writes:
>Rene Boe Wrote (with some deleted):
>>I think you have mistaken the Nazgul's for the Ringwraith's.  The
>>Nazgul's were the flying beast's the Ringwraith's rode upon when Frodo
>>and his company came nearer to Mordor (at least if my memory serves me
>>correct at this late hour.)
>Greetings:
>
>I believe that a closer reading of the LOTR reveals that the Nazgul were the 
>Ring wraiths.  It was an innovation (??) of Sauron to corrupt some poor flying beasts to act as their steeds when they had to cover the vastness of Middle 
>Earth in search of the One Ring.
>

Yes this is correct, as several others have pointed out. I have always
imagined the flying beats as pterodactyls(sp?), simply from the description
in the text about not having any feathers just skin and belonging to
some long-dead age etc. Every time they are mentioned the descriptions
seem to fit perfectly with a pterodactyl so I like to imagine that is
how Tolkien imagined them. Of course I could be totally wrong......

Matt
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Subject: Geography:  (was: Tolkien a Racist?)
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:46:10 GMT

In article <EHEIMONE.92Dec12235108@hydroman.hut.fi>, eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen) writes:

|> These (facts?) stimulated me into wondering, what M-e site _could_ 
|> be England? Tol Eressea, Shire ...? 

Oh, definitely the Shire.

|>  it's funny how Mordor becomes I**q 

I'd always thought of Turkey as being nearest to Mordor. Both in location and
topography, and also as fiercest opponents to the "centre of civilization" of
the modelled time, mediaeval or later antiquity.

I would have said *Khand* was the home of the fighting Iraq-hai.

|> and provided that England is somewhere near the Grey Havens, Angmar
|> could have moved to Scandinavia/Finland during the cataclysms...

Yes. I'd put Lindon as Ireland, and the Fornost region as Scotland.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Since we got a video player,  I hardly ever read any more.

         I used to be quite a bookworm.   Now I'm more of a tapeworm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:54:51 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1992Dec10.165121.10988@stiatl.salestech.com>, rwt@stiatl.salestech.com (Roger Terrell) writes:
|> 
|> 2) The Robert Jordan series.  I can't remember what the series is called.
|>   I think the first book is "The eye of the world" or something like that.
|>   Good Stuff!

Great Stuff actually!

It is the Wheel of Time Series and there are now 4 books in it.  The first
3 are out in paperback.  It doesn't have quite the flavor of LotR but that's
OK as I am tired of cheap imitations.  The world doesn't have quite the
depth (could there ever be another Middle Earth?) but the characters are all
interesting, well fleshed out, and believable.  And the plot is fascinating.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Dec10.132341.5688@odin.diku.dk>
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:51:08

In article <1992Dec10.132341.5688@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:

>  Try reading the letter Tolkien wrote to the German
>  publisher who asked him if he was an aryan.
>
>  Klaus O K

Interesting. Could you quote it?

BTW, in the Illustrated Encyclopedia David Day quotes an interview with Tolkien
who clearly admits that history of Middle-earth is meant to be our pre-history
and even compares some locations of Middle-earth with the modern world map.

So, even though the Third Age map changes a lot during (a few?) cataclysms
there's no doubt that Tolkien had some thoughts about what M-e country is going
to be English soil, etc. After all, that's what he wanted to create: an English
mytholgy. These (facts?) stimulated me into wondering, what M-e site _could_ 
be England? Tol Eressea, Shire ...? Also, about this racist thing... if we see
the Bay of Belfalas as the-Mediterranean-to-be, it's funny how Mordor becomes 
I**q (which probably was not a very troublesome country in Tolkien's time, 
though...)!!

Yes, and provided that England is somewhere near the Grey Havens, Angmar
could have moved to Scandinavia/Finland during the cataclysms...

Esko Heimonen
eheimone@hydroman.hut.fi
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:52:11 GMT

In <lewchuk.724799095@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:

>steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 
>>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the 
Ring's
>>own pride that caused its destruction.

>In what way did the Ring show "pride" and in what way did this cause
>its destruction?
>I fail to see how the Ring could have tried to get back to Sauron in a more
>effective way.  Its powers were limited to psychological manipulation of
>the ring-bearer and probably one or two people within very close proximity.

Remember the scene where the promise was given to Gollum that if ever he
touched the ring again, he would be cast himself into the crack of doom?
The voice came out of the ring of fire on Frodo's chest -- i.e. the Ring.
And sure enough, when Gollum did touch the Ring, he was cast.  Do you think
Gollum just slipped?

For myself, the destruction of the Ring is far more profound when seen as
evil destroying itself, rather than good triumphing against all odds through
serendipity.  I'd love to get in this subject more.  Please bring it up
again in about a month, when I return from Christmas vacation.
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball