From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: UFO - area 51...
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:25:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.020531.6187@omrongw.wg.omron.co.jp>, tnishi@kansas.Berkeley.EDU (NISHIYAMA Tetsuto) writes in part:
|> 
|> 	  The "total fantasy" part, I don't know...could you explain what
|> 	you mean about "total fantasy"?  I have never seen a UFO myself.
|> 	Only on t.v. so I don't know if they exist or not, but IF they
|> 	did exist and WERE working with the military, it wouldn't be hard
|> 	to imagine the military trying to keep it a secret.
Your sentence is exactly what I mean by "fantasy".  A long string of
speculations, tied together by weak logic.  For starters, the noone
ever kept such a secret so secret for so long.   Second, the entire
premise that the US military would want to do this is not terribly
plausible.  Third, the supposed evidence of such a conspiracy is
contradictory, false, and fabricated.  Cite me a source for these
claims, and I examine it.

|> 	  Another interesting thing they showed was film/video clips
|> 	taken from the space shuttle.  There were several film clips
|> 	that showed different objects.  One object was shown to be twisting,
|> 	bending, and turning irregularly as it floated over the earth.
|> 	Another object was shown flying across the screen and make a sudden
|> 	145 degree turn as another object flew past it, as if it were trying
|> 	to avoid it.  (Apparently, the shuttle crew and other officials
|> 	claim that the object is ice that formed when the shuttle dropped
|> 	their used water, but it's clear through radio transmission between
|> 	the shuttle and mission control that the water was dropped several
|> 	minutes AFTER the incident.  Another NASA employee asked to analyze
|> 	the tape said that it's hard to imagine that it is ice considering
|> 	that other fragments flying in the same direction continue.  He 
|> 	stopped the video to show a flash seen immediately before the object
|> 	makes its 145 degree turn and the other object is seen flying past
|> 	it.  He said that this suggests that it COULD have something to do
|> 	with the "star wars project".)
|> 	Another film clip was apparently used for some show (?) but it showed
|> 	a portion of the earth with logos flying in and out of the picture.
|> 	suddenly, a roundish object is seen flying into the picture and
|> 	stopping in the middle as if it were watching.  Showing every 1/30
|> 	second video frame at a time, it can be seen that the object is
|> 	continuously changing its velocity as it zig zags through space.
Old hat.  Wonder-mongers are having a field day with the funny behavior of
all the junk that hangs around the shuttle.  The supposed SDI tests make
no sense, the behavior of the objects is entirely consistent with the way
debris moves in space.

|> 		I'm not trying to prove that they exist or don't exist...
|> 	just telling you what I saw on t.v.  
|> 		Personally, I don't see why they wouldn't exist.  Many
|> 	people (not me) claim to see them...yes I'm sure many of those are
|> 	just planes or clouds or whatever else, but how about the others?
|> 		I don't really follow this group much, but I think I've
|> 	seen your (Robert McGrath's) comments before and I'm presuming
|> 	(correct me if I'm wrong because I'm just presuming) that you are 
|> 	one who does NOT believe in them...me?  I question their 
|> 	existance...I don't really believe in them, but I don't 
|> 	refute claims of their existance either.  What I would like to do,
|> 	(highly unlikely though) is to actually go to these places (Puerto
|> 	Rico or "area-51" or any other place that people claim to see these
|> 	things) and see for myself...make my own decision...
|> 		Robert, out of curiosity, I was wondering whether you did
|> 	this?  Actually go to these places and see for yourself?  I'm just
|> 	supposing that you did and were not convinced.
Its not really a question of whether UFO's COULD exist, its just that the
wild claims made by enthusiasts simply do not hold up.  What good would
going to PR do?  The stories could not be confirmed by going there.
As far as I know, "area 51" doesn't even EXIST, so how could I go there?

What I do do is read the reports and check them against other, less
spectacualr, accounts.  Stripped of the "gee whiz" aspects, most UFO
reports amount to a little bit of "lights in the sky" and a lot of
imagination.  And most of the most spetacular are in fact simply
fiction, often copied time and time again from one book to another.

|> 		There are things that DO bother me, like the reports of
|> 	being told by the aliens that there will be global disaster if
|> 	humans continue destroying the environment...
Hmm.  I must be an alien.  I've been warning that for years.  This is
not exactly a big secret.  This phenomenon is a classic case of people 
projecting their own fears into the mouths of "superior beings", perhaps
to giv ethem more weight.

|> why do they keep
|> 	kidnapping the "little people"...
They don't.  The abduction tales are fabrications and fantasies.
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone has ever been abducted
by aliens.

|> |> It's hard to give ditailed commetnary on these points, as there was not
|> |> enough info in the post to refute.
|> 
|> 	refute? I don't really want you to JUST refute, but a comment with
|> 	WHY would be nice.  Just saying it's a hoax or it's fantasy isn't
|> 	going to tell us ( people who may believe or people who are not
|> 	sure) WHY they may or may not exist.
WHY what?  Why do people tell such tales if they are not true?  Because
they really believe it (perhaps incorrectly)?  To make money, maybe?  To
get attention, maybe?  Because they are fun, maybe?  Who knows?

And please note:  I said the nonsense in the TV show was fantasy.  I
did not actually comment on whether ET's might or might not exist.  The
point is, tabloid trash on TV and elsewhere is basically just "made up".
It means very little other than that you can put almost anything on
TV and some people with believe it.

Do you have any evidence at all that the things described on TV are
true?  Other than going to PR, etc., what methods might you apply to
checking them out?  For instance, lets find out exactly where and
when and by whom the footage supposedly of "area 51" actually were
made.  Also, find out exactly what the show was claiming, e.g.,
who, what, where, when, why, how.  Then we can see if there is
anything here to consider.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.mindcontrol,alt.flame,soc.women