HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: What is essential ?
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:13:18 GMT


 * Moved from SOC.RELIGION.CHRISTIAN (Usenet Xtian) by Steve Hayes

On <21 Aug 1992 21:03> Roger Perrin (5:7104/2) said to All :

 RP>These are some pretty clear points about your belief in God. Anything
 RP>to add about the salvation part ?

To which the moderator responded:

 RP>Incarnation.  I think some people accept as Christian a person who
 RP>acknowledges Christ as the only Lord, even if that person rejects
 RP>theological ideas such as the Incarnation.  Traditionally groups like
 RP>the Arians were considered heretics, but Christian heretics.  A fairly
 RP>common standard for essential Christian beliefs is the Apostle's Creed
 RP>or possibly the Nicene Creed.  (The Nicene Creed tends to involve
 RP>slightly more "technical" theological definitions.)  --clh]

It might be worth noting, however, that the Apostles Creed is purely Western. 
The Nicene Creed is more widely accepted, though the Eastern Churches do not 
accept the Western additions, especially the double procession of the Holy 
Spirit.

--  
INTERNET: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
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       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
From: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Prayer Requests?  Send them here!
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:15:02 GMT
Reply-To: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


	Just a reminder...

	As I've mentioned in previous posts, if you have
some urgent prayer request, send them to me and I'll
forward them to all the people who volunteered to join
our prayer warriors network.

	If YOU want to join, send me a message.

	That's it.  Wish I had time for a more detailed
message.  Perhaps in a few more weeks.

-- 
Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr., grad student & roboticist-in-training, CWRU

"If God does not judge the United States, then He owes |    My boss is a 
 an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah."   - Billy Graham   |  Jewish carpenter.
From: nkraft@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Matthew Fox
Date: 26 Aug 92 06:20:02 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <Aug.20.02.21.04.1992.21132@athos.rutgers.edu> conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) writes:
>According to an article appearing in Monday's San Francisco
>Chronicle, the controversial theologian Matthew Fox has been
>expelled from the Dominicans on the order of the Minister General
>at the request of Fox's Provincial in Chicago.  While Fox
>remains a priest he has been suspended from all exercise of
>his priestly faculties.  

Actually, the news wire services had this almost right. Matthew Fox is,
at this time, still a Dominican, but per the former Minister General
of the Dominican Order, a request to have him expelled has been sent
to Rome. There, it must be voted on and this will not be done until
sometime after early September. Not that there's much doubt about the
outcome, but for the time being it is not correct to say that Fr. Fox
has been expelled from the Order.

An interesting aside: The current Minister General of the Dominicans
is a supporter of Matthew Fox, and wishes to find a way to allow him
to remain a Dominican. The course began by the former Minister General,
however, may prove unstoppable, but there are many within the Dominicans
who are trying. Most of the trouble that Matthew Fox ran into arose 
from his refusal to leave California, and his involvement with ICCS,
when he was ordered back to Chicago by the Dominicans. As the Dominicans
in Chicago were the ones that started disciplinary actions against
Fox some time ago, and since ICCS at Holy Names College in California
is the very heart of Fox's Creation Spirituality movement, his refusal
to relocate is understandable. Still, it is a violation of his vows
to obedience.

(This information obtained from the Friends of Creation Spirituality
office at ICCS, where Matthew Fox teaches and works.)

Norm.
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 26 Aug 92 05:43:23 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <Aug.25.02.11.19.1992.18957@athos.rutgers.edu>, mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul) writes:
> ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) writes:
> 
>>If we say suffering is random, then where does God have a place? If we say
>>it is all God's permission, then what is His purpose and how fair can it
>>be? If we say it is Satan, then can Satan defy God in something God does
>>not want to happen? Not according to scripture.
>>Not all suffering (as far my limited mind can understand) is man-caused,
>>intentional, deserved.
> 
> I don't know that we're going to come close to satisfactory answers on 
> this one.  I know that reading a recent emailing with specifics of
> the genocidal madness inflicted on innocents in Yugoslavia has left
> me very, very shaken.  I find, too, that while most of us can find
> Bible verses discussing how the righteous are established and the
> wicked perish, I find in my reading of both Job and Ecclesiastes persons
> saying, "Hey!  It _isn't_ true that the righteous always flourish and the 
> wicked always perish - just as often the wicked are fat and sassy and the 
> righteous are without help!"  The answers aren't given in either place.  
> There's obviously truth in stating that things will turn out very different 
> in the hereafter, but that isn't going to satisfy very many people's 
> questions since we know so little about it.

Here we get close to the spirit of my original question at the
beginning of this thread.

I have long entertained the following as a possible interpretation of
the *ending* of the Book of Job, supported by other biblical passages
regarding removal of an individual's sins:

He who created space-time has the power to alter it.  Specifically, if
God stands outside of time (He must, if He created the continuum), He
is able to remove "events" that to us seem to have "occurred" and
literally cause them "never to have happened."  This is of course
incomprehensible to us, but so is the creation of space-time in the
first place.

This sounds perhaps like a Neoplatonic conception of God (standing
"outside time"), and might not meet with the approval of some
theologians, for example Terry Miethe.  But consider: at the end of
the Book of Job, all was restored.  Did Job get his children back?  We
are not told...  
-- 
********************************** +.............................+
*- Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>* :All opinions expressed herein:
*There is no privileged position.* :are my own and are not to be :
*	-God, Derrida, others    * : attributed to my employer   :
********************************** +.............................+
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Re: More Bullshit About Death
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:19:05 GMT

9208.29 e.v.

Death is change.
We always die.
Fear arises from a desire to maintain a 'self' which isn't real, does
not change.

'Souls' and 'future lives' are images which serve our security well, yet
which are no more truths than 'void' and 'ends'.


I've found that sitting in cemetaries and contemplating my own dissolution
are very effective means of dealing with death.  Another may be writing a
will and funeral rite for oneself.  Another may be writing a 'last letter'
to each friend and relative.

Thyagi
------------------------------------------------------

"Don't look back, something may be gaining on you." - Satchel Paige
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddha's "No Soul" theory.
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:42:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.083451.21896
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Labs

In article <1992Sep1.220656.19000@qiclab.scn.rain.com> eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall) writes:
>I am wondering a lot about the "No Soul" theory in Buddhism. I can accept
>almost all other Buddhist tenets except that one. Maybe I just don't

on a related note, Buddhism claims "No God".
In actuality, i think it can only be claimed that Buddha claimed
no "Sky God", ie a Brahma or Jehova type Creator God.
Also Buddhists, as you say, claim "No Soul", but also
(some?) posit a Mind of "clear light" and a Subtle Body.
go figure. Let's just say that nature of the universe,
the mind/body of infinite bliss/wisdom are not easy things
to realize. you gotta work at it. but the Buddha dharma is
incredibly wise, as all the modifications to the God/Soul
theories of the Absolutist Religions attest to.
hope this helps, but dont get discouraged because
you think you need to accept some difficult piece of doctrine.
that's never stopped Buddhists in the past :-)

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: kish@titania.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: More BS about Death
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:20:57 GMT
Organization: ----
Originator: toshi@sandman


| It seems that all of the religiously oriented netgroups have a
| penchant for high falutin' postings on what death is -- consisting
| of rehashes of Rev. so-and-so says thus and such, or Father
| or Roshi or Swami or Rabbi or Guru X says this and that.
| [...]
| Yet we willingly quoth this master and that swami instead
| of hunkering down with death itself.  Why do we skip so easily to
| the airy-fairy talk of next lives, swapping bodies, etc. - which
| never seem to be our first-hand experiences - and ignore the reality
| of death?  Death is everywhere and yet we run from it in order to
| find time to read the speculations of strangers.  Or is it possible
| [...]
| While I am not a Zen Buddhist I am struck by how little attention is
| paid in any of the religion groups to what Zen terms the great work
| of life and death.  One of their early masters, Ying-an, said:
| "If people want to learn Zen, let them learn the Zen of a lone lamp
| shining in a death ward."  I feel he probably was not referring to
| "Zen" as religious school.
| 

How can you cop such an attitude about quoting others and then quote
from Ying-an for support ?!?  As a friend of mine was fond of saying in
very tongue in cheek fashion, "I quote others to better express myself !".
I think he was quoting this from someone else, but I can't remember who :)

| Why the feverish concern at the "grad course level" about what sex
| the dead are reborn as, or what color your bardo is when we seem to
| have no interest in the nitty-gritty of getting dead?  The B.A. level,
| so to speak.

Speculating about death and its consequences may or may not be born from a 
desire to avoid the issue. I find that in a lot of what might count as
lofty speculation there is often an undercurrent of fear and trepidation 
which is, of course, very accurate, very close to "the nitty-gritty". Even
where this is not true, I think lofty speculation is still better than 
avoiding the issue altogether, something many people are more than happy
to do. 

| Perhaps at the bottom of my puzzlement is the fact that none of
| those who speak so loftily about post-death seems to have ever
| seen that the stork is attracted to the worms and comes back to get us.

Since you have so generously offered us the stork-and-worms model, I don't 
feel embarrassed to say that mindfulness practice is the most gentle and sane 
way I've found to look death in the eye.

-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 21:03:00 GMT

In <1992Aug30.174039.3748@cco.caltech.edu>, bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM
(Kristian Skrinak) writes:

>Do you know of a master who does not teach?

If a master did not teach, who would know of him?

What is the sound of a tree, falling in the forest when no-one is there to
hear?

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Why meditate?
Summary: I just do it 'cause it's fun
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:04:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.084012.22419
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Sep1.220202.18789@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi) writes:
> 	Why meditate?
[...lots of interesting things deleted...]

> Toshi
> tt@wag.caltech.edu

I found that ultimately, I meditate because that is the most joy I can
experience.  To be perfectly still, without a thought, without a
breath, without a sensation of this world--that is the happiest
experience I have.  I came to meditation many years ago, with many of
the benefits that Toshi has already described, and I won't repeat, in
mind. But that wasn't really enough to get me to meditate regularly.

More recently, I came to realize, with the help of a few choice
authors, that our perception is heavily conditioned by our
preconceived ideas and beliefs of what should be, what we should be.
I keep telling myself how the world is and how I am, and that's how I
keep this game going.  This telling myself conditions my perceptions
and reactions.  I want to stop telling myself, and just experience,
but old, comfortable habits are hard to let go of.  So I meditate.  I
pull my attention away from the world, I stop my thoughts (momentarily
;)).  And the experience doesn't lend itself to words.  And sometimes
I can bring that same sort of awareness to everyday life. (for
nanomoments ;)).  

For the past year I have been casting out old mental maps of reality
that are obviously defective, trying to experience the world directly,
make some more accurate maps of my own, so I can function in society,
and I meditate a lot.  These two activities reinforce each other
tremendously. And as a result (I think :)  I have been happier this
year than I ever could have imagined possible before.  And that is the
only test I can put to what I do.  Am I happier, and more effective,
today than yesterday, last week, last year?  

And to answer the
inevitable questioning of my happiness (how do you know you're really
happy and not just fooling yourself?)--Ultimately, I guess I don't
know, but I would rather be a happy fool than a miserable sage.  I
don't think I would trust a miserable person to give me advice on how
to live, though :).  And I am constantly testing and calibrating my
perceptions and reactions with heavy self-analysis, and conversations
with a wide variety of people.  I try to be as brutally rational with
myself as a physicist can be.  

That's a very personal description of why one might want to meditate.
For anyone that wants to meditate, I think that if it's not fun, you
just won't keep with it.  It's that simple.  And if it's not fun,
whatever you are doing is not right.  Either you're doing it wrong, or
this just isn't the way for you.  There is no more accurate indicator
for correct spiritual practise than happiness.  

Yours in verbose reflection,
	Lorenzo
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Subject: Bright Light of Death
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:20:04 GMT


Jack writes about ignoring the reality of death.  Seems to take a
grim view of it...

I observe that people who are closest to the earth fear death the
most.  I have not been that much of the earth myself.  So I read
with more sympathy than Jack the respected scriptures of East and
West.  The attitude toward death is very important.

When I was 12 years old, I asked a giant oak tree outside my
window about death and the tree was very explicit.

When I was older, my father died; I lost my best friend in
Vietnam.  I slept in the same room with many there who went out
in the copters and did not come back.  Thought I was gone myself
on occasion.  Any one who has lived for a while knows death. 
Such experience makes us question, and that is as it should be. 
I think Jack's view of death is unrealistic because it fails to
credit the obvious experience of humanity.  Or perhaps Jack just
lived in a different more antiseptic world than I.

Emily Dickinson said "Dying is a wild night and a new road."  I
agree.  I do not think it because she said so.  I appreciate that
she said it because I know it to be true.

"We all have been for all time...and we shall be for all
time...As the Spirit of our mortal body wanders on in
childhood, and youth and old age, the Spirit wanders on to
a new body:  of this the sage has no doubts."
(Bhagavad Gita)

Well, for those who have no intimations of immortality, I am glad
such words are circulated.  But what counts for the individual is
to go deep, like a Byron:

"I feel my immortality oversweep all pains, all tears, all
time, all fears, - and peal, like the eternal thunders of
the deep, into my ears, this truth, - thou livest forever!"

Some will pin a hope upon a word, but hope is weak and yields
easily to our skeptic narrowed by bodily identification.  Some
will recognize a lost chord, a memory of truth forgotten; but not
yet sure.  Some will know with a fullness of knowledge, and for
them the worms hold no terrors.


   Jim

--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: toshi@cco.caltech.edu (Toshihiko Takeuchi)
Subject: test2
Originator: tt@sgi1
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:12:25 GMT

Test #2.
From: burman@sol.cs.wmich.edu (SURENDRA BURMAN)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Tai Chi: Dynamic Meditation
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:16:01 GMT
Organization: Western Michigan Univ. Comp. Sci. Dept.
Originator: toshi@sandman

Hello Ian Thomson:

I am posting this article from my friend's account.
I have some experience with Tai Chi in the past. 
I learned the 118-steps, the 24-steps , 88-steps, etc.
However, I have forgotton everything now and feel 
like brushing up this again. I am wondering if you 
have any material such as video tape or books of Tai 
Chi lessons,  I would appreciate hearing from you.

Note: If you have any email address, you can reply 
me through email, that way I will not be posting
something which others may not like!!

Kim Tran
2706 Heatherdown
Kalamazoo, MI  49001
Phone: 616-388-3485

Note: Please reply to my friend's account.
Email: burman@cs.wmich.edu
From: tucker@mitre.org (William Tucker)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Keywords: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:45:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: cco.1992Aug29.214511.29778
Organization: ----
Originator: toshi@sandman

I count only two posts by people speaking of enlightened beings.
Aren't there any more? Please no messages about what enlightenment 
means.............feel free to use YOUR OWN opinion, I will respect
that as valid. Does this mean that there are no elightened beings 
with computers?  ;-)


Wm T.

.standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:41:23 GMT

Kristian Skrinak <bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM> wrote:
: Do you know of a master who does not teach?

Do you really know a master?

Does a master teach?

Does sunshine teach, or does it not?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Subject: On death
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:36:11 GMT

Hi,
	Since the topic of death was brought up, I want to throw in my 
$0.02 shot and "contribute" my favourite prose/meditation verse on the 
subject. Before you bash me for coercing my views on you, please 
consider the "n" key ;-)

	Enjoy !

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.

----------------------------------------------------------------

		Recollection on Death - Maranassati

	I sit now before the Buddha and contemplate that He and all 
who knew Him are now dead. Since His great demise, countless beings 
have come, bided their time and gone. The names and deeds of but a 
few are remembered. Their many pains, their joys, their victories and 
defeats, like themselves are now but shadows. And so it will be with 
all who I know. Passing time will turn the calamities I worry about, the 
possibilities I fear and the pleasures I chase after into mere shadows. 
Therefore, I will contemplate the reality of my own death that I may 
understand what is of true value in life.

	Because death may soon come, I will repay all debts,
	forgive all transgressions and be at odds with none.

	Because death may soon come, I will squander no time
	brooding on past mistakes but use each day as if it were
	my last.

	Because death may soon come, I will purify my mind
	rather than pamper the body.

	Because death may soon come, and separation from those
	I love, I will develop detached compassion rather than
	possessiveness and clinging.

	Because death may soon come, I will use each day fully,
	not wasting it on fruitless pursuits and vain longings.

	May I be prepared when death finally comes.

	May I be fearless as life ebbs away.

	May my detachment help in the freeing of the heart.

---------------------- END ------------------

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern