HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Music Theory Question
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:32:23 GMT

In article <Oct16.190508.13847@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
>Perhaps someone out there could help me with this...maybe send me some email
>or recommend a book that would answer my question...
>  I only know a little about key and tonality (I am not a musician, but a
>physicist.)  While I have no difficulty understanding the difference between
>major and minor keys, I don't really understand how the various major keys
>are related, and how they differ.  Technically, I understand...I mean it just
>comes down to the sharps and flats in the key sig.  But very often while
>reading about some piece, I come across comments like "...now the music
>changes to the sunny key of C major..." or something like that.  Is it true
>that C major is "brighter" than, say, E-flat major?  

Do _you_ find it brighter?  Then it is true for you.  If you don't, it's
not true for you, but may be true for somebody else.  And then, some
people don't even associate colors or hues with keys.

>Is there a mathematical reason?   

Absolutely not.

Besides, tuning to one standard pitch wasn't introduced until 1930s or
so.  Previously, it varied among ensembles, countries, etc.  What was in
C major in one place, could be D major or something else in another.

>I run across these kind of comments all the time, and

The amount of nonsense written about of music is staggering.  (To be
specific, what I'm flaming here is presenting subjective impressions as
absolute, objective truths.)

>I am wondering just how objective/subjective they are.  

Entirely subjective.

>I don't understand how
>one major key can be so different from any other, because the mathematical
>relationships between the notes is the same...all you do is just shift the
>tonic.  

The nice thing about having different keys is that you can perform
modulations from one key to another.  This is often one of the more
interesting aspects of tonal compositions.

>Is it possible to arrange the keys in the order of "darkest" to
>"brightest"? 

Only subjectively, and only if the person in questions associates 
keys with colors, brightness, darkness, etc.

> If so, what is the order?

See above.

>		  "Zwangvolle Plage!  Mu[e]h' ohne Zweck!" Siegfried, Act I

That's a very good description of such attempts.


-Margaret
mikulska@astro.princeton.edu

Dept. of Astrophysical Sciences
Princeton University
From: as432@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott Dettra)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tallis Scholars...
Date: 14 Oct 1992 23:56:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: as432@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott Dettra)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois) says:

>
>I love the Tallis scholars, and tend to buy their (not cheap) CDs
>blindly. So I picked up said recording of Brumel, which I found
>incredibly boring.  Is it just me? If I like Jannequin, why don't
>I like Brumel?
>
>

It's not just you.  The 12 parts really got on my nerves when I first
listened to it.  It was annoying at times.  Ironically, I really enjoy
Tallis' 40-part motet _Spem in alium_ and Tomkins 10-part (i think) Great
Service.  So it's not the number of lines I have a problem with, but
Brumel's use of them.  However, the work has grown on me a little bit after
a few listenings.  Still, I would never recommend this disc highly to
anyone.
-Scott
as432@cleveland.freenet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: Bach Cello Suites on Period Instrument: Rec. Wanted
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<Bvr63D.Cpz@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
	<1992Oct7.141309.20853@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 8 Oct 92 02:31:00

In article <1992Oct7.141309.20853@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank) writes:

>Does anyone out there know if Harnoncourt has recorded these (and, if
>so, any opinions on them)?  If his reading of the 'Gamba Sonatas can
>be taken as any indication, these would definitely be worth at least
>a listen.

  I think I listened Harnoncourt on cassettes I borrowed from the 
  library. That was a while ago so I don't remember them very well,
  but I think I liked them.
  My favourite player for these suites is Casals. The sound in his
  recordings is not too good, the first ones were recorded in late
  30s on 78 rpm discs, but how he plays... (And nowadays one can be
  even a bit romantic?!)
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:04:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: slc.1992Oct15.020427.15266
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Joseph J. Marcheso Jr. (Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu) writes:

> there is a decidedly anti-Verdi bias in your reporting of the worlds
> most overused songs. What about "La donne e mobile" "Va
> pensiero"(briefly mentioned) "Anvil chorus" Any march in Aida. 

Verdi. Opera. Feh.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank)
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:10:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.033525.14825@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>Well we certainly have put our foot in our mouth tonight haven't we? No
>well recognized hits well then you probably haven't heard "La Donne e
>mobile" "Va pensiero" the entire soundtrack to Pretty Woman The
>overture to La Traviata The triumphal March in Aida? Haven't heard
>these???? Now let me think of ONE Glass "Tune" that matches his "rival"
>in this category. Please tell me how much a gazillion is? THis is an
>insult to compare one of the worlds greats to Glass.

And by this "reasoning", Andrew Lloyd-Weber's music is far superior to
that of Stephen Sondheim since only ALW beats a tune to death, so that
you end up humming them when you leave the theatre.  I don't know of
ANYONE who would call ALW a better musician than Sondheim (though I often
hear the converse)--therefore, consider this argument officially shot!
--j.e.f.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: debrown@athena.mit.edu (Master)
Subject: BMG Classical Music Catalogue
Keywords: BMG, Catalog
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:10:40 GMT


Hi...a while back someone mentioned the BMG Classical Music Catalogue. However,
this person did not post a phone # / addreess where it could be obtained.
 
Can someone please post this info?
 
Thanks,
 
Dave.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: Re: Tallis Scholars...
Organization: Visual
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 17:33:04 GMT

Alan S. Florjancic writes:

>Would anyone know if the Vocal Group, the Tallis Scholars has 
>released any new music within the past few months.  

I just got their recording of Brumel's "Earthquake Mass."  It features
12-part counterpoint, and their do their usual outstanding job.

Rob


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: AMS in Pittsburgh
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:39:11 GMT

Just a general question to readers of rec.music.classical:  Will any of
you be attending the American Musicological Society meeting in
Pittsburgh in early November?  I already know of one other r.m.c devotee
who'll be there, as I will.  Anybody else?  Just so I have my eyes open
for familiar names and the unfamiliar faces they're attached to....

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,soc.culture.german
From: seldner@hdi3sun.kfk.de (David Seldner)
Subject: Re: Deutsche Staatsoper Berlin
Organization: Kernforschungszentrum Karlsruhe (Germany)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 10:06:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.183548.26652@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, aluffi@cauchy.math.fsu.edu (Paolo Aluffi) writes:
|> Speaking of opera houses in Europe: the myth is that attending any performance
|> at the Wagner's festival in Bayreuth is basically impossible, that they are
|> booked out for the rest of this millenium and a good part of the next.
|> Is this true? How does one go about actually getting a ticket? --Paolo Aluffi
|>  
Well, as I lived in Bayreuth for several years I can tell you that it's really
difficult to get a ticket. They are (probably) not booked out for the rest
of this millenium, you might be lucky and get a ticket for, say, 1996. You
have to apply for a ticket and, if you're a lucky guy, you get one immediately.
I'm not really sure about the selection method, I think they somehow perform
a lottery (unless you are a VIP). If  I were you, I'd just write them
and ask for information. Knowing someone from Bayreuth doesn't help at all -
their chance is even smaller. I don't know the exact address (but could
find it out, if you want), but this should be good enough:

Richard-Wagner-Festspiele
W-8580 Bayreuth

Germany

The post office should know the exact address.

Good luck!

-----
dave
seldner@hdi3sun.kfk.de
From: ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: mussorgsky songs
Date: 16 Oct 92 03:09:04 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Originator: schung@casbah.acns.nwu.edu


Are there any recordings of Mussorgsky's 'The Nursery' in existence?  Any
good ones?  It's probably less effective on disc, but any help would be
appreciated.

-- 
ssc@nwu.edu | Nam castum esse decet pium poetam (Catullus 16)
From: 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:00:08 GMT

In article <Bw487F.Kuo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, rpeck@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (robert william peck) writes:
> In article <1992Oct14.081947.10567@bsu-ucs.uucp> 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp writes:
>>
>>What works come to mind as untranslatable and why?
>>
> One work that comes immediately to mind is Steve Reich's _Tehillim_.
> The text is in Hebrew, and its setting is primarily syllabic.  The
> differences between Hebrew and English, particularly in the placement of
> accents, being quite notable, I seriously doubt that this work could be
> performed in English--or any other language, for that matter.
> 
> --Bob Peck  

This is the sort of problem I had in mind.  Granted, a very talented translator
could produce a libretto that corresponds in intent to the original, but to
make the rhythm of the language fit music written for another rather different
language would require considerable restructuring of discourse.  

It gets hard enough sometimes in English.  I've seen conductors struggle with
the line "Who is this king of glory" from the chorus "Lift up your heads" in
Handel's Messiah.  They think that the "this" must be stressed and substitute
"the" for it, changing the meaning considerably.  This results from failing to
realize that English also has an unstressed "this" whose use differs slightly
from the use of the stressed "this."  A similar problem arises in Burt's carol
"Some Children See Him," where the word "some" is on an off-beat, I believe the
fourth eighth-note of the measure.  However, to get the right, indefinite
specifric meaning, "Some" must be stressed.  These are problems that arise in
texts that are originally English.  Much worse problems arise when the text is
translated.

Herb Stahkle  
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Rakozy March question
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:48:44 GMT

In article <16OCT199207460642@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

   In article <3955@phred.UUCP>, jimn@phred.UUCP writes...
   the Rakozy (sp?) march in Berlioz "Faust"? And for that matter, what 



   ..and didn't Liszt write a Rakozy march too?

Yup, it's the Hungarian Rhapsody No. 14(?).

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Dr. Faustus
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:18:46 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct16.103204.21661@ousrvr.oulu.fi> leiwo@phoenix (Jussi Leiwo) writes:
>Roger Lustig (roger@crux.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <1992Oct14.070743.11478@ousrvr.oulu.fi> leiwo@phoenix (Jussi Leiwo) writes:

>: Huh?  Schoenberg, for one, would disagree!  Lots of people consider
>: Mahler, even today, to be a revolutionary musical figure.  As for
>: "not interested in what was behind his music," could you elaborate?
>: I don't know what you mean.

>	< cutted > 

>	Well, what I thought was that Mahler tried to compose somehow
>	absolute music, that means the music gets all its ideas from
>	musical perfecteness. All kind of things coming from the surrounding
>	world (that means real world) are not worth putting into form of
>	music. I thought that he as a composer tried to fill his music
>	with things that can only be understood via the music.

Yes and no.  There's an obvious fascination with death in Mahler's
music--from the slow movement ofthe First through the first movement
ofthe 2nd, the whole 6th, the last movement of the 9th; it's not
hard to connect these movements with ideas about death, fate, etc.  
Although Mahler later rejected most of his "programs," he was clearly
trying to refer to things in this music--the imitations of popular
genres alone would have to argue for this.  All kinds of things *do*
come from the surrounding world, incl. musical instruments that are
also real-world items, e.g., sleigh bells, cowbells, etc.  The hammer-blows
of the Sixth are pretty explicit; bird-song is imitated in the Seventh
and elsewhere, hunters' horns in the distance in the First, and then
the songs and dances: "Frere Jacques" in the First, waltzes, Laendler,
all kinds of sentimental stuff.  The Posthorn solo in the 3rd sounds
more than a bit like "Freut euch des Lebens."  (The third also has bell-
singing.)

"Absolute music" is hard to make a case for via Mahler, certainly not 
in Hanslick's sense.  (See Dahlhaus, ch. 8.)

>	So, I don't know how things really are, but that was what I thought.
>	I'll go home and listen to Mahler some more and return if I find
>	something new (from the booklet coming with the record :-))

Well, I've only written one booklet regarding MAhler, and that was some
arrangements he did.  So you're safe for now.


>	P.S. (one more) That is quite good a question to think about: Can
>	     music (or any other form of art) be understood without the
>	     knowledge about what is behind the piece analysed.

Depends on what kind of understanding you want to achieve.  Only Brian
would argue that there is only one "correct" understanding of a piece,
that all other takes, no matter how gratifying, are "wrong."  If you
want to understandthe coherence of a movement, you may not need to know     
what kind of dance is being alluded to.

Roger
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: DEBATE for those who are interested
Date: 15 Oct 92 06:02:42 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct15.030912.25746@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>What the hell do you know? 

Joseph, was this directed at someone?  If so, include an attribution
or at least a name.  If not, do you really mean to ask *all* of us
about this?

>I laugh at your "its so stupid, a child
>could write it" comments on music. Do you know anything? I never said I
>loved ALW just that he's on the right track. 

The road to hell, you mean?  ALW is a musical thief, who makes Glass's
derivativeness look positively Beethovenian in its originality.  If this
is the right track, I'm glad I'm on the wrong track; ALW's music is attracted
to cheapness, and cheapens everything it touches.

>Why don't you respond with
>something substantive. Or are you too busy think up more amateurish
>one-liners?

Yes, all of us are too busy.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Why switch to CD?
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:18:39 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.130919.16850@edscom.demon.co.uk> rpt@edscom.demon.co.uk (Richard Tomlinson) writes:
[....]
>My experience is that analogue recordings are generally far inferior to almost
>all digital recordings. Even the most recent AAD CDs in my collection give
>their analogue origins away by containing enormous amounts of hiss. The whole
>sound is often very muddy and unclear. Yet digital recordings sound so
>incredibly good. If I close my eyes while listening to classical DDD CDs, I
>really feel as if the orchestra is in the same room.

Well your experience is obviously too limited. I have several AAD
recordings from the 80s with no appreciable tape hiss at all and quite
splendid sound. Contrariwise there were some real horrors among
earlier digital recordings - Karajan's Planets, Nielsen 4th and much of
his final Beethoven cycle, for example, are less than splendid, indeed
the Holst is quite horrible.

Much more depends on the engineering than the technology.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Tallis Scholars
Date: 12 Oct 1992 11:57 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

>From: c60a-lf@danube.Berkeley.EDU (                )
>Subject: re: Tallis Scholars

>     After hearing the discussions on Tallis Scholars' new album, Brumel's 
>"earthquake mass," I still have one quetion in mind.  Should I buy the CD or 
>not???  I think Rob said that the 12-part counterpoint sounded really good.
>But then someone else also suggested that this piece is quite boring.  
>Well, whom should I listen to???  

 I have only heard the Tallis version of the `Et ecce terrae' mass once,
but I have the Huelgas Ensemble version - an earthier, less ethereal
performance. I could never describe the piece as boring - in the Sanctus 
in particular the 12-parts set up standing waves of sound as phrases are 
passed back and forth. It is one of the most amazing pieces of Renaissance
music that I've heard, and starts to explain why Brumel was held in such
high regard (by Lassus amongst others) - matched only by Josquin, which
brings us to...

>I only have one CD from Tallis Scholars' 
>collections, L'homme arme Masses by Josquin, And I too think that 
>The Tallis Scholars is one of the best vocal groups that I have heard so far.
>Although their sound quality was great on that album, I thought that the music
>they sang was quite boring.  (They were "L'homme arme super voces musicales," 
>and "L'homme arme sexti toni.")  

 DISAGREE COMPLETELY - the L'homme arme sexti toni is far and away my favourite
Josquin mass. One example - how can you possibly say that the exquisite Agnus
Dei from the sexti toni mass is boring - especially the third Agnus Dei, 
where the two lower voices maintain the cantus firmus against ever more
complex ornamentation by the other voices. 

>So, should I risk about $18.00 on 
>Brumel's "Earthquake mass"???  And also, which CD from their collection do 
>people like the best, and recommand?

 Probably not, based on your reaction to the Josquin. Of the other Tallis
Scholar's issues you might try the recent Tallis issue, or the English
anthems (Tallis) or the Victoria requiem. If you don't like those, then
you don't like the Tallis scholars style. Since you don't like my own
favourite, there's no point in recommending the Pange Lingua.

>     The other vocal groups that I listen to are The King's Singers, (they 
>are the best vocal group there is on earth. :), 

 How does one write a computerised raspberry? 

>and the Chanticleers.  The
>Chanticleers also have an album out on some of Brumel's works.  (Can't 
>remember the name since I give the CD to my sister.)  And it's one of my
>favorite cds.  Anyone out there that also listen to these groups?

 I match (and beat - my opinion) your Chanticleres with the Hilliard ensemble, 
Pro Cantione Antiqua, Taverner Consort, Huelgas Ensemble, .....


>Paul.

>hsu@nes.nersc.gov
From: tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: EMI price increase
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:35:11 GMT
Reply-To: tony@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University

In article 926@news.udel.edu, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:

> Think it through, please: the costs of pressing the silver disk itself
> are the tiniest part of the expense that the recording needs to earn
> back.  What about
> 
> Hiring the hall or studio
> Hiring the orchestra
> Renting the music (if not public domain, owned by the orch)
> Paying the conductor and soloists
> Paying the engineer, producer, editors
> Paying someone to write notes or do a translation
> Paying support staff for all of the above
> Doing publicity
> Etc.?
> 
> If a company has sunk $500,000 or so into a recording, the only way they
> can earn it back is by their X% of each copy sold.  Given the way such
> expenses keep going up, one could make a case that CDs cost too LITTLE
> in this country (they cost significantly more in Europe).  I'm not going
> to push that case myself -- like anyone else, I don't want to pay more.
> But compare the increase in all the above expenses in the last 2 decades
> to the rise in record prices.  A CD seems like a bargain.
> 
> Jon Alan Conrad

I'm reluctant to take Jon on on *anything*, because he's usually right, but
I have to disagree here. EMI, like other companies recording the classical
repertoire, certainly has to deal with all the expenses listed. But the fact
is that although major classical projects can be expensive, the sales life
of the record is typically much longer than it is for other kinds of music.
Witness the fact that many recordings made 20 and 30 years ago are still in
the catalog at full price (my impression is that EMI keeps their old stuff
at full price more than most companies, too). Now, even though they may have
to pay a few hundred grand for that new recording of Trovatore, their catalogs
are *full* of stuff that is for all practical purposes fully paid off, and
the dollars they earn for that can help support the new stuff. EMI may have
the best catalog of old recordings around, so they have the least excuse for
stiffing you in this way.

In addition, Jon's comments miss the point that the CD version of a record
is typically much more expensive than, say, the cassette. Now when CDs cost
a lot to produce, that made some sense. It doesn't any more. It just means
that they are soaking the consumer who wants the best possible reproduction
(and please don't start flaming me about vinyl, ok? That's another topic!).


------------------------------------------------------------------------
					Tony Movshon

Internet:  movshon@nyu.edu		Howard Hughes Medical Institute
					Center for Neural Science
					New York University
Phone:	   (212) 998-7880		4 Washington Place, room 809
Fax:	   (212) 995-4183		New York, NY 10003
------------------------------------------------------------------------