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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:11:00 EDT
From:         "Michael J. McCarthy" <YEA003@MARSHALL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Questions, questions

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 10:25:21 -0500
From: Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Questions, questions
>
>Since no one can absolutely prove when life begins, shouldn't
>we err on the side of saving a life?
>....
>I was not counting rape in the argument since most people
>agree that abortion should be legal in the case of rape.

        You see no contradiction here?  If you make exceptions in the case of
rape or when the mother's life is in danger, you cannot accept the notion that
life begins at conception, because you cannot then justify taking a "life" in
response to the situation.  Since, however, you seem to accept abortion in the
case of rape, you cannot also believe that life begins at conception.

        Let me make this recommendation:  read the _Roe v. Wade_ decision --
all of it.  I realize that it's a bit thick and intimidating, but you might
find the answers to many of your questions.  Perhaps you have read it; I
would then recommend that you re-read it, since I found that helpful myself
recently.  Find a copy of Barrett and Cohen's _Constitutional Law_,
because it assembles several related cases as well.

>
>This argument in particular seems to be one of women's rights.
>This is understandable.  Why don't women take more of an
>assertive role in society.

        Let me recommend John Gaventa's _Power and Powerlessness:
Acquiescense and Rebellion in an Appalachian Valley_.  While not a work
concerned with women's rights specifically, I think it provides some
assistance in understanding this issue.  Gaventa's thesis is that the
assertiveness or quiescense of a group stems from its power or powerlessness,
not vice-versa.  Hence, if a group is historically powerless, it will adopt
a quiescent attitude.  That quiescent stance is not the CAUSE of the
powerlessness, but rather its result.

-------------
Mike McCarthy
Marshall Univ. History Dept.
Huntington, WV 25755, USA
YEA003@Marshall.WVNET.Edu
YEA003@MARSHALL.BITNET
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:43:00 EDT
From:         "push the button, frank!" <SWEDE@DRYCAS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: the upcoming war

Kerry K. reports:

>According to the CNN/Times poll I saw this morning, a pretty hefty
>majority of voters (like 70%) would favor the use of military force in
>getting Iraq to comply with all the cease-fire resolutions.  Another hefty
>majority (in the upper 60%, as I recall) favor military attempts to remove
>Saddam Hussein from power.  I guess the electorate doesn't much care about
>the differences between "then" and "now" -- at least that's my take.

Looks like you're right.  So much for bucking the conventional political
wisdom.  Has this been having any effect on the poll numbers for Bush and
Clinton?

>Kerry

Gary W. Olson                 "Tiny people, with little guns,
SWEDE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU   little armies march, to little drums..."
                               - Oingo Boingo, "Little Guns"
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:57:17 EST
From:         "Greg `TwoTone' Spiegelberg" <GSPIEGEL@BSA1.KENT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: How to defeat AIDS
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.EDU

From:          MacPhil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>

}On Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:25:37 CST Sean Mills said:
}>FROM: Sean Mills
}>
}>I have a suggestion as how to reduce the number of AIDS cases that exist at
}>this time.
}>
}>(1) Avoid premarital sex
}>(2) Avoid adultery

}>Now I realize that AIDS can be transmitted by other means than by sex, such as
}>giving blood in which an infected needle was used. But to the best of my

}It appears you are preparing a list to separate the guilty from the innocent
}(as in "didn't do anything 'wrong' to receive or transmit the virus") so
}you should include (3) Avoid intravenous drug use.

I think if a list of "sins" evolves from this it will be one that
will A) suck the fun out of life by making everyone a paranoid manic
depressant (*Ooh! Scary!*) or B) turn everyone into holy rolling,
faithful Roman Catholics.

-Greg
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Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:45:49 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: More on olympics

Yeah, from the POST OFFICE. The U.S. Postal Service, you know,
They Deliver For You.

Proud Sponsor of the U.S. Olympic Team. Good publicity, they thought.

Maybe they can buy an endorsement from Michael Jordan, for Air Mail.

Jamie
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:37:04 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: How to defeat AIDS

>FROM: Sean Mills

>I have a suggestion as how to reduce the number of AIDS cases that exist at
>this time.

>(1) Avoid premarital sex
>(2) Avoid adultery

>Now I realize that AIDS can be transmitted by other means than by sex, such as
>giving blood in which an infected needle was used. But to the best of my
>knowledge, sex is the number one way it is transmitted. However, it is
>unfortunate that not everyone will all of a sudden abide by my to points. I
>really think that, while it probably won't eliminate AIDS completely, it will
>reduce it dramatically. Does anyone have any other suggestions?


Doesn't this come down to education?, which hasn't been successfully
managed at home?, which should therefore be increased in all schools?

-j.b.
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:49:00 CST
From:         AHOFFMAN@UMKCVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      N-Tickets, eh?

I heard deep in the regions of the nether world both the malignings of Missy
Justice, and the call to arms for candidates/tickets to run in the POLITICS
presidential race. My friend Valentine said that he had seen me paired with
the person I liked the most of the *N candidates, and I gracefully, and
with great respect, yield to Evelyn to be at our ticket's head. My only
position so far is that choice in life far outweighs minority factions
imposing narrow moralities on the majority. Yay from the land of the dead!
"Abbie"
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:07:00 EDT
From:         "push the button, frank!" <SWEDE@DRYCAS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: What's the probability that I can get odds correct.

From: "Chris A. Sloffer" <SLOFFER_CHRIS_A@LILLY.COM>
>       I'm afraid that I must admit (speaking sheapishly with hat in hand)
>that Jamie's definition of losses to wins is the proper ratio, not the other
>way 'round, as I had said.  If a horse is a 70:1 shot, he will win one in
>every 71, not 70 out of 71.  Jamie was kind enough to point this out to me.

Ok.  Here, now, is the final edition of my tenative predictions on who will win
the Presidential election in November.  Now that we've finally established
how odds work, I feel fully confident in offering the following:

    Clinton/Gore                    -2.5                  Bush/Quayle

What can I say - it's getting close to that season again. :)

Gary W. Olson                 "Turn the tables with our unity,    -L7,
SWEDE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU   they're not a moral nor majority.  "Pretend
And it's Bush back to pass...  Wake up and smell the coffee,       We're
he's sacked by the economy!    or just say no to individualty."    Dead"
Looks like he'll have to punt...
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Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:21:14 EDT
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A New Conservative Movement?

I would vote for a Kemp/Dole ticket instead of Bush.

Evelyn Duncan
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:48:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: AIDS Wars

>One of the things that makes these discussions so frustrating is that
>the "victim" folks fall back on "oh, you just want to round them up
>and put them in camps" when nothing of the sort is proposed.

you're right. nothing like that was proposed, and that was not what my
"rant" was about. maybe bringing out jason's argument to its absurd
conclusion was a rhetorical club, but i don't believe i was being dis-
honest. just trying to show where such reasoning *could* lead.
in countries where the illiteracy rate is higher than the that of the
literate population (ie: India), there is a conserted effort on the part of the
gov't. to keep it that way, the notion being that an ignorant population is
a manageable one. Forget the problems of riots and such, that's not the
point...ignorant people don't vote. why bother? can't read the name of
the person you're voting for anyway...

anyway, i agree with you that "more of the same" won't help. allowing the
sub-standard school systems to stay the same is definitely not the way to
go. strengthening those failing systems to at least bring them to par with
schools in the more desirable (trans.wealthier) locations would be a step
in the right direction.

>"I can try to teach him not to do that to the dog, but I know that the
>dog can".  Cruel?  Maybe, but that's not the only important criteria.

no, i don't think your mom was cruel. but she did try to teach you. at some
point people need to learn from experience. thats the true teacher in life.
she gave you the start, the reasons why, the knowledge to choose to respect
the dog or keep teasing it til it snapped at you. but what kind of educational
experience are the kids in the inner cities getting? the kids in back-water
bayous and appalachia? the rate of illiteracy proves only that they weren't
given the basic tools to work with, not that they are worthless.

keeping decent education out of the hands of a segment of the population by
insisting that they don't want it and probably couldn't use it anyway does not
justify a position to cut programs. what it does is insure "more of the same".
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:25:00 EST
From:         MING the Destroyer <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Course for T. Kidd: History 530: Research & Methodology

From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Course for T. Kidd:  History 530:  Research & Methodology

>The only point I wanted to make out was that never have the vast major-
>ity of Southerners ever been adamantly in favor of subjugating another
>race.  Granted they may not have been against it, but they were not
>in favor of it.
>-Travis

  What??

  The only point I wanted to make was ... well, I made it in
the last post.

  BTW, careful what you say:  "I wanted to make out" may get
you in trouble with your sex cops.  Keep your hands on the
table and the chaperone in the room.

                                    -Tim

        yeah.  keep your hands on the chaperone on the table
        in the room (and remember, at least one foot must be
        touching the floor at all times--keep the door open so
        others can watch, i mean, make sure that you are not
        doing anything wrong)

        brni
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:26:01 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Pro-Choice and the GOP Convention

All:

My apologies to whoever mentioned the anti-abortion ads in Georgia.
I assumed you meant Michael Bailey, because his was the first prolife
campaign to be called attention to this election season.  I have since
read in (gasp!) USA Today that there are several states in which this
took place, Georgia among them.

BTW, I also read that prolife demonstrators are an increasing presence
on the Clinton campaign trail, occasionally rivaling the pro-clinton
crowd in number.  Interesting development going in to the GOP convention
season, no?
              --Missy Justice
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:52:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: The Romantic Tragedy of the Electorate

missy,
the thing that really gets me - and i know i'm being really naive - is that
someone could think out a scenerio such as this, use literally thousands of
volunteers, sway millions of people to your side, bamboozle the media, and
everyone else (except for georgie, who i'm sure knew what was going on), all
for the sake of personal revenge. what a damn waste of time, money, and
energy!
if that same energy, etc. went into truly worthwhile endeavors, think of what
could be done to really help people.
i have never ever understood emotions of revenge, envy, grudges, etc. but
carried out on this level (if that's what happened), i think borders on the
criminal.
and to think....he even fooled Cher! :D

-linda
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jbm@panix.com (John Mignault)
Subject: Re: Sex and marriage, sex and marriage, go to . . .
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:17:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <POLITICS%92072922470756@OHSTVMA.IRCC.OHIO-STATE.EDU> Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET> writes:

>Guy's car at girl's house at night with lights off=prima facie evidence.
>(And vice versa.)
>
The only thing this establishes is that his car is parked in front of her
house. And what time of night? 10 pm? 2 am? What if "girl" (or guy) is sick
and asked guy (or "girl") to come over and tend to her? 

BTW, what are you planning to do if a guy's car is parked in front of a *guy's*
house at night with the lights off? Or a "girl's" in front of a "girl's"?

It just gets more and more burdensome and unenforceable. Unless, that is,
you're willing to have one hellacious mess of a police state....

>-Travis
--John Mignault
	jbm@panix.com
Groucho Marx for World Humor God(tm)
Vote Discordian In November
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 12:01:00 -0400
From:         Song Weaver <JULIE%DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Questions, questions

>I suppose my main question is why should I accept
>abortion as a legitimate woman's right?  No one can
>say when life begins or stops.  The result is that
>I am not qualified to determine when a child is a child
>and when it is a piece of tissue.  Accordingly, I
>can't help but think that abortion is wrong because
>we can't be sure.

Okay-- let me ask you: Am I obligated to sustain another individual's
life?  I mean _legally_ obligated?  If were the _only_ person whoose
kindey tissue type matched that of another individual would you favor
strapping me down against my will in order to sustain that
individual's life if that individual required a working kidney?  Is it
my _legal obligation_ to give up my own body in order to keep another
person alive?

Is it my legal obligation once I say I _will_ keep the person alive to
_continue_ doing it?  Once I say "yes, I will help this person" have I
rejected all rights to stop helping the person in the future.

REGARDLESS of whether that individual is a "life" or not and
regardless as to whether or not s/he is a "human being" I
wholeheartedly _reject_ the notion that I could be in some way held
legally culpable to having my own body invaded in order that I might
be forced to do a good deed for someone else.

--Julie
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:41:01 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: button your fly
              29 Jul 1992 12:34:00 -0400 from
              <JULIE%DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE>

Julie:

I'm just wondering this from a strategic viewpoint.  Does the national
gay rights organization (could you refresh my memory on the name?  I
think it used to be NGRA--but I thought it changed?) have a strategy
for dealing with the fact that local United Way organizations make
their own individual decisions as to what to fund?  The national
can do one thing and the local another--is that a problem?
                                                  --Missy Prez 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:56:28 EST
From:         MacPhil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: ratings for tv
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:31:40 -0500 Jason Briggs Cormier said:

>>>  Perhaps so, but now we've got Tipper wanna-bes censoring Bugs Bunny,
>>>  Wile E. Coyote vs. Road Runner, etc. claiming the cartoons are
>>>  showing violence isn't really harmful...

>I was hardly referring to the cartoons, though the level of
>violence and the graphicness of such in today's cartoons is
>quite different from the cartoons of "my day".  I was

I'm talking about even seeing Daffy Duck getting shot and surviving,
Wile E. Coyote falling off a high cliff & surviving, etc.  Those are
the very thing the fringe extremists want to get rid of...funny, they
never think about changing the channel or turning off the tv.

>addressing the level of violence on television and at the
>cinema.  Just think of some of the largest grossing movies
>of the past two years.

Like Batman, T2, the "Raiders" trilogy?  Who allows the kids to go
to the movie?  Who even drives them there or accompanies them, knowing
what will be shown by way of hearsay, reviews, advertising trailers, etc.?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
When ambidextrous people can't do it right, we do it left.

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:55:35 -0400
From:         "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      IRAQ

 I do not support IRAQ or its illustrious leader.  However, I find no
 fault with its resistance of the UN inspectors.  What if the UN had a team
 wanting inside one of our weapons development centers?  Who is the UN to
 demand anything?  I think Saddam should tell them all to go pound sand in
 their rears!

 That said, I also have no problem with the U.S.A. going in and removing
 his highness from power.  He is, by all accounts I'm aware of, a brutal
 tyrant.  If the UN is participating, I vote we keep our troops and our
 toys at home.

 ---Robert

 "Before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee; amd before
  thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee."
                                 --- Jer. 1:5
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:49:58 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      Re: Moves to Help Bush

Hi, Sue.  Sorry it took so long to get this in :)

>6) Invite pro-life Democrats to speak as the Demos invited pro-abortion Reps.

Good idea, but make sure the pro-life Democrats are going to actually vote
Republican (this, to me, was the real kicker of the demo strategy).

>7) Invite parents who have adopted unplanned pregnancy children to speak.

An interesting possibility.  Would probably go over well; would work *
really* well if they could toss out some information indicating that all
women facing unplanned pregnancies could find "good" adoptive parents who
might even be willing to pay for medical care during the pregnancy.

>10) Feature companies that promotegrowth along with environmental growth
>along with enviornmental responsibility instead of eliminating jobs because
>responsibility instead of eliminating of EPA policies.  (NASA in Houston
>and Florida as featured on 'Nature' is a good example)

Um, I don't think I understand this.  Demonstrating that economic growth
and environmental soundness can go hand-in-hand seems more the Democratic
line than the Republican one (environmental standards = job loss).  Maybe
you could clarify?

>11) Invite scientist(S) & other enviornmental experts who disagree with Gore
>and give their assumptions and conclusions.

Depends on who's supposed to be listening.  My experience is that real
science doesn't go over very well with the voting masses.  Dixie Lee Ray
would be a good speaker -- she can obscure and misinterpret the data with
the best of them in ways that would appeal to the opinions folks have
already formed.

>15) Attack MTV and Clinton's use, Ice-T lyrics, and invite police to speak
>about 'Cop Killer, 'KKKB___h' and others.

Would probably appeal to many.  Careful, though -- Crossfire the other
night featured a spokesperson from the national black policeman's
organization (don't remember the name) who defended Ice-T's right to do the
song and Time/Warner's right to distribute it.

The main thing is that all these suggestions will work with folks who've
already made up their minds on the issues at hand (just as the demo show
did).  I don't know that any of them would actually *attract* currently
uncommitted voters.

Kerry
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