From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Feminist Perspective of Batman Returns
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:54:06 GMT


Where did this thread come from, anyway?  It just sort of *appeared* here...

In article <1992Jul28.180930.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:

)In article <poznikof.711851264@sfu.ca>, poznikof@fraser.sfu.ca (Kenneth Shane 
)Poznikoff) writes:
)> For example, the cat woman:
)> Yeah sure she is sexy but she also stands for women's liberation.  
)> There is a conflict of ideologies.  This is not to say that liberated 
)> women have to be bull dykes.  I think she represented some sort
)> of males view of the liberation movement.  She is somehow sexy, psychotic,
)> crazy and after revenge against men.  (Please read on before you
)> cast judgement on these statements.)

)Catwoman was not after revenge against "men" in general, just the one who
)shoved her out of a window.

I dunno about that.  She didn't really have that much of a reason for picking
a fight with Batman in the first place, except generalized anger.

I'm not so sure Catwoman was a 'feminist' though.  I do agree a lot of
people talk about her as being a 'feminst', and she might serve as somewhat
of a symbol of 'women's liberation' to some.

)> Then when Cat Woman and Batman are fighting he ends up knocking her
)> down and she says "How could you,  I'm a woman".  That is so pathetic.
)> This sends out a very negative message about the women's movement.  If, 
)> for a moment, we take the view that she represents a positive image of 
)> woman (ie strong and powerful, knowing what she wants) this scene 
)> completely negates all of her strong attributes.  She has reverted to 
)> a meek stereotypical woman.  It trivializes the feminist movement.

I don't agree with this interpretation at all.  I don't see her in this scene
as 'reverting' to a meek woman.  I see her as pulling an *obvious* trick.
Really obvious.  Really really *really* obvious.  And Batman fell for it,
hook line & sinker.  You might argue about the ethics of being willing to
pull this sort of stunt, I suppose.  Ethics really wasn't Catwoman's strong
suit.  A rather strange & rigid code of ethics was Batman's strong suit -
sort of.  [The film wasn't totally consistent about Batman's ethics - he
talks about bringing criminals in to the law with Schrenk, but doesn't
seem hesitant to hand out vigilantee violence in other scenes.] 

)> Taking a quick first look at this scene you may think that it was
)> just put in to grab a few laughs.  When I saw it though, I heard
)> only a few groans.  The groans could have come because the audience
)> recognized the horribly cliched line or, as in my case, because the
)> audience recognized the trivializing effect it had.
)
)Maybe they groaned because they saw the trap that Batman was falling into.

Yep.

)>> Like the security guard said, "I don't know whether to open fire or fall in
)>> love!"  (As Catwoman was destroying a display case.)
)> 
)> There are theories that argue that men's greatest fear is of castration.
)> When she removes the guns, she is symbolically castrating the men.  This
)> is effective (but none the less, cliched) method of raising feelings
)> of resent in the male viewer.  There are other scenes that do this also.

This seems to be 'reaching' a bit for an interpretation.  I'd say there
was a sort of love/hate duality with the Catwoman character, rather than
a unified 'fearful' or negative image.

)> And when the Penguin says that line about "pussy".  (I think it was
)> something like "Just the pussy I've been waiting for").  I, nor any of my 
)> companions, could beleive that they used such an obvious dumb line.
)> The writer's attempt at sexual innuendo is overdone as if no one would
)> get the association of woman and cat/pussy.  It is so overdone and
)> poorly done that it becomes painful to watch.

)It was *meant* to be an obvious sexual innuendo, and the writer was *counting*
)on the audience's cathcing it!  The goal there was to portray Penguin as a
)sleaze.

Yep.  A lot of Penguin's sleaziness was really just his direct approach
combined with his repulsive appearance though (IMO).  If he wasn't
physically repulsive, but was instead attractive, I'm not so sure he would
be seen as such a sleaze.

)> On the other hand, Catwoman can be seen as a negative image of a 
)> strong female.  It boils down to "she uses sex to get what she wants."
)> She has no morals.  (Somewhat equivalent to a woman sleeping her
)> way to the top.)  Taking this interpretation, Catwoman certainly is
)> not a positive image of woman.  It reflects the common patriarchal 
)> view that women are morally inferior (to men, of course).
)> 
)> Which one of these interpretations is correct?

)Neither.  Catwoman's a villain.  Villains are not generally known for their
)high moral standards.

Catwoman's portrayl wasn't totally negative, IMO.  I definitely don't see
her as a Symbol Of The Vileness Of Women.  I don't see Batman as a Symbol
Of The Virtue of Men, either.

Actually, I viewed most of the film as having a message of 'messed up
childhoods lead to messed up adults'.  There wasn't really a single totally
sane character in the film.  In fact, the entirety of Gotham city wasn't
really 'real' in this film, IMO - it was purely a backdrop for the
narcassistic self-preocupation of the three differently distrubed
personalities - all of whom were suffering from trauma of one sort or
other.  [Catwoman's trauma wasn't a childhood one - both Batman's and
Penguin's were.]  I don't see any of the characters as being a positive
role model - rather, they are all crazy, but in different ways.

Stay tuned next week - where I analyze 'Batman Returns' entirely in terms
of the TORG(tm) game system :-)
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