From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:22:10 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

> [ WARNING:  This post contains some descriptions that may be of a
> sensitive nature to some of the readership.  Please hit 'n' now. ]

>>> To them it's just an image of sex they're thinking of; of taking the
>>> girl, ripping off all her clothes, and getting their rocks off inside
>>> her. 
>>
>> How do you *know* that? 
>
> How do you think?  This is what they themselves described.  You think I
> would just conjure this out of nowhere?  From where do you derive such
> assumptions? 

The fact that the image of sex is all they described doesn't mean that
it's, as you claim, "just an image of sex they're thinking of".  You
don't know whether or not their fantasy includes consent unless they
specifically say so.  From where do you derive the assumption that it
doesn't?

> ...up above is your first example.  Here's another:  "God would I love
> to shove my DICK in her mouth --" -- this in regard to someone they
> barely know.  Now tell me:  do you honestly think there is nothing in
> the above that suggests dominance or force? 

It's suggested, but to blow up that suggestion into a full-blown rape
fantasy requires a leap of logic that you're a lot more eager to make than
I am.  "I'd love to shove my dick in her mouth", as a vulgar but
straightforward description of a sexual act, would safely apply to plenty
of sexual fantasies *I've* had, but the vast majority of those same
fantasies weren't rape fantasies . . . so it's hard for me to take you
seriously when you assume that most of the times *you've* heard such a
decription, they *were* describing rape fantasies. 

And by the way -- since when do dominance or force automatically imply
rape?  I've played out sexual scenes both in my head and in real life that
had plenty of both, but have somehow managed to avoid being raped or
raping anybody myself.  Fancy that.

>> So which of these two possible situations are you using as the primary
>> foundation for your opinion?  The times when you were presented with
>> someone else's outright rape fantasy, or the times when you heard a
>> fantasy but didn't hear anything about consent and therefore decided to
>> *interpret* it as a rape fantasy? 
>
> Are you saying that if you drug someone's drink, render them
> unconscious, and have sex with them, thus sidestepping consent, it's not
> rape?  And similarly, if you have a desire to fuck someone, and you have
> an image of a limp, lifeless receptacle for sex -- not an image of a
> mutual sexual *encounter* -- then that's not also an image of rape? 

If these fantasies ("Gee, Synth . . . I'd really love to slip her a mickey
and then pound my dick into her while she's unconscious" . . . "Man, sex
with her would be really great if she'd just lie there like a corpse while
I fucked her" . . . ) are really typical of the fantasies of the males you
were socialized with, then the fact that you still associated with them
says almost as much about you as it does about them.  (It sure as hell
doesn't sound like the people *I* remember hanging out with.  Did you have
a little circle of gutter-trash you were socialized with part-time on the
side?) 

> I agree that simply hearing of someone expressing a desire to have sex
> with someone, without explicitly describing whether or not that person
> consents, cannot be construed to be a rape fantasy. 

From where I sit, it obviously looks like you're construing exactly that.

>> Based on personal experience and observation ... I've seen that most men
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                    ^^^^^^^^
> If this is the source of the confusion, I apologize:  I never meant to
> suggest that these are the facts for describing a majority sample of the
> male race. 

That's what the words "most men" mean.  If you don't want your words to be
misunderstood, pick better words. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.rape