HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: fencing or fighting?
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:52:46 GMT
Organization: FAA / Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center

Funny, I thought this was rec.sport.fencing, not rec.sport.fighting.
After all, does anyone *really* consider SCA fighting fencing?

I am very disappointed by what I've seen in this newsgroup so far.  I
was looking forward to discussions on competitive fencing, but a
mental guesstimate says the discussions are 50/50 fencing vs.
broadsword fighting.

Now, before the flames begin, I have nothing against the SCA.  Well,
maybe I do.  Just kidding ... some of my best friends belong to
SCA.  Really...  ;-)

I missed the first few days of the newsgroup, I think, so I'm not sure
of what the charter is here.  So as not to go on and on about my
personal preferences, perhaps I can spark some discussion on what this
newsgroup is all about.

How 'bout (pun intended) a straw poll:  
    a) How many competitive fencers don't want to see SCA related
       discussions, 

    b) How many SCA'ists don't want to see competitive fencing related
       discussion, 

    c) how many want both to continue in the same group.

    d) how many don't give a flip...

... or has all this already been hashed out before I got here?  As for
my opinion, I would prefer to see two separate groups, such as
r.s.f.competitive and r.s.f.sca, or some other similar naming scheme.

Less I be misunderstood, I don't want to banish either group.  I'm
just curious if everyone out there likes the mix.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell)
Subject: Re: A few questions and observations
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Distribution: usa
Date: 16 Dec 92 05:03:44 GMT

>In article <2B24AEA3.4919@deneva.sdd.trw.com> rosen@pooh.sdd.trw.com (Daniel Rosen) writes:
>
>>The second question involves sabre fencing; for quite a while I have
>>developed an attack which I initiate "en pointe" (set up for a point
>>with my arm extended). As my opponent attempts to parry, I disengage
>>and ...

In article <1992Dec15.232909.4703@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> I write:

>There is a simple explanation:  The directors are full of it.
>
>Your attack (feint with the point, disengage the parry, head cut)
>is a compound attack.  ...

Perhaps I misunderstood.  If (as Dave thought) you meant by "en pointe"
that you are presenting a line (as opposed to attacking with the point)
and by your opponents "attempt to parry" you meant his attempt to
attack your blade, then you are still in the right.  Your disengage is
a "derobement" and passes the "right of attack" to you (see 418c).  This
attack need not be with the point, cutting is fine.

By the way, something I learned recently:  The derobement gives you the
"right of attack", but it is up to you to exercise that right.  If
you do a derobement from a line, don't just reestablish the line, lunge,
even if you don't have to.

Theo
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: sabaker@icaen.uiowa.edu (Sarah Anne Baker)
Subject: Re: A fencing life (was Re: Drop Outs)
Keywords: fencers
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:09:19 GMT

svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:


>And has anyone ever found themselves:

>   . Playing badminton, and *lunging* at the shuttlecock?

>   . Dancing, and looking down to find their feet in a nice en-guard stance?

>   . Their date's feet?

>   . Buying a dress jacket a bit loose, becuause the right forearm arm is tight
>	otherwise?

>   . Sitting on a bus, with people staring because their right hand is
>	unconsciously practicing bladework combinations?

>(Any more? :)

While falling asleep or while asleep, waking up because you just
parried and your hand hit the wall, bed or sleeping partner?
From: morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Epee/Foil Flamewar
Date: 11 Dec 1992 21:38:52 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Vancouver BC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sitka.triumf.ca

In article <aZR=9D-@engin.umich.edu>, ferret@metaphor.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka) writes:
|> 	Actually, the epee is for people who believe that is is impolite to
|> point. :)  I mean, how practicle is it to fight someone with an over-grown
|> knitting needle?  All you can do is stick them like a pin-cushion; and 
|> unless you know your anatomy, you won't get a killing/crippling blow 
|> very often.  Now, the epee, with an edge (as well as a point) allows for
|> those crippling blows (hamstringing, head cut for the blood in the eyes,
|> etc).

Yikes!  Ken Lipka, eh? ... make a note of that.  If you ever show up in 
one of my pools, I'm running the other way.  8-(

|> You won't find those moves effective with a foil.

No kidding!  You seem to be implying that you *have* found them 
effective with epee.  I can only hope that you're talking about
some historical version of the weapon, and not the sport of epee 
fencing.

Serious diversion:  by definition, the (modern) epee is a pointed weapon 
with a covered tip.  The foil is a practice weapon with a blunt tip.
It is therefore impossible to perform any crippling blows of any kind
with a foil---it's not a real weapon.

.............................................. Morgan Burke
                                               morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: wma6617@zeus.tamu.edu (ASHE, WILLIAM MONROE)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: New Groups was Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:13 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.tamu.edu
Keywords: KEYWORDS
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <BzGtM7.5xs@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, ga@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Greg Anderson) writes...
<<stuff deleted>>
I agree whole heartedly with the keyword idea.  
It is my opinion that breaking up this group 
into a bunch of specialized groups would be bad.  It the interchange of ideas 
from different styles that makes this group fun to read.  Boil it down to the
bare essentials, the reason you're reading this group at all is for fun.  To sum
up, this group ain't broke, so don't fix it
Just my 2 cents worth... now with inflation about a penny and some pocket lint
Bill
flame away, I've plenty of barbecue sauce
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Duelling vs. "Swordfighting" (was: french grips)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:13:44 GMT

In article <1golnoINNshv@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
(Morgan Burke) writes:
>If memory serves, however, the English banned the
>rapier (in favour of their own longswords) because it was too deadly.
>This implies that the thrusting weapons are the more fatal, despite 
>being less gory.

I thought the English banned the rapier because (1) it was foreign,
and (2) because it was a bully's weapon (too long to be used for
defense and hence purely an offensive weapon; in other words, it
encouraged you to strike the first blow).

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:30:36 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
>Funny, I thought this was rec.sport.fencing, not rec.sport.fighting.
>After all, does anyone *really* consider SCA fighting fencing?

	It's a sport.  A different one, but kendo is different too.

>I missed the first few days of the newsgroup, I think, so I'm not sure
>of what the charter is here.

	The name was kind of forced by the internet quasi-cabal.  The
original name was to be rec.fencing.  The charter is to include all forms
of swordplay (fencing, iaido, kenjutsu, kendo, SCA heavy, SCA fencing,
others?) and also discussions of swords in general (collecting, making,
etc).

	The group is new, and there will undoubtably be flurries of messages
on different topics.  Already we've had right vs left, FIE rules, Olympics
dropping fencing, shoes, scoring boxes and the silly rules for them, stage-
fighting, is SCA heavy an art, cut vs. thrust vs. cut vs..., etc.  As with all
new groups with a lot of interest, there will be heavy flurries until it
settles down a bit (with occasional flurries).

	We should try to avoid beating topics to death, though...

	Perhaps a repost of the charter is in order.  Also, people should
remember to edit the subject lines when the subject changes, so kill files
will be effective.  I'm sure there are USFA/FIE fencers who could care less
about SCA fighting/fencing, and vice versa.  Personally, having studied
all of the forms of fencing I listed above to one degree or another (you
might exclude SCA fencing, I haven't been very active since around the time
it started, and only did it 3 or so times), I very much like the diverse set
of opinions and wide range of topics.  (I also collect Japanese swords, and am
a member of the Japanese Sword Society of the US.)

-- 
To be or not to be = 0xff
-
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kreinddm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (David M Kreindler)
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Summary: Rust?  Aaauuuugh!
Keywords: kevlar laundry rust
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:22:35 GMT

While we're on the subject of cleaning, does anyone out there know what
can be done to a kevlar jacket, specifically with the goal of getting
some rust stains off?  I know kevlar shouldn't be hung out in the sun to
dry (-UV rays destroy the kevlar matrix, don't'cha know,...-) but is
there anything else that should be avoided when laundering kevlar?

(Would someone off in the land of Janet do the rest of the world a
favour, ring up Leon Paul, and ask them?  Their number is 01-405-3832.
Much appreciated....)
-- 
kreinddm@ucunix.san.uc.edu -------------------------------------------------

"Sometimes you're the windshield / Sometimes you're the bug...." - Dire Straits
From: schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Famous Fencers
Date: 20 Dec 92 00:16:37 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA


Hello

I know Bruce Dickinson (of Iron Maiden) is an avid fencer, and Neil Diamond
won a fencing scholarship to NYU. Anybody else out there who is both famous
and a fencer (at least at one point in their lives)?

Regards
NEil Schier


Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re:The hardest hits/thrusts/cuts/SCA
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 00:07:17 GMT


In a Dec. 15 posting Ledlie Klosky posted:

(stuff removed to save space)

> However, upon reflection, I believe that the strongest blows
> that I have given or received have all come from 2-handed
> spear thrusts.  Perhaps a thrust delivers _more_ of your body mass
> than a cut, but I am unwilling to believe that NO body mass
> goes into the momentum of a cut.
> 
> Any other SCA types out there with an opinion on what weapon hits
> hardest?


A properly executed cut with a two handed weapon  that involves good power
generation is also very powerful, but much of the energy is absorbed in the
flex of the weapon shaft. With the thrust less energy is lost to flexing
in the shaft.

The most powerful shot that I have seen have involved sword and shield work.
I have seen knight class fighters dent 12 gage helms useing aproximately 36" by 
2" by 1.25" single handed swords made of ratan. The shot is usally either
a snap or a off side shot. 

                 Mackenzie
From: dyoung@ecst.csuchico.edu (Douglas Young)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Computer games?
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:28:13 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: bummer.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1992Dec9.222815.27934@rock.concert.net> penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS) writes:
>
>Are there any video/computer fencing games?  
>
>-Patricia
> penfold@rock.concert.net

My favorite computer game recently, PRINCE OF PERSIA, is a nice 
chase through a dungeon full of guards with swords.  You can attack,
advance, retreat, parry... timing is important, as are feints.  
(but no changes in line, sorry to say).   

Neat graphics, too.  (Although, when was the last time you saw a blonde
persian prince?)

-- 
---)----------                                                ----------(---
        Douglas Young             Internet: dyoung@ecst.csuchico.edu
        Computer Science          California State University, Chico
---)----------                                                ----------(---
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie)
Subject: Re: apologies (was thrust vs. cut)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:57:28 GMT

In <1992Dec8.235136.7986@tfs.com> paigen@tfs.com (David Paigen) writes:
>As many poeple have pointed out, in email and posts, unless you are
>fencing sport sabre, more than you wrist is used to make a cut.
>There are a lot of muscles involved in your arm and shoulder.
    [stuff deleted]
>Even if you use your whole are to make a cut,

>a cut is STILL LESS POWERFUL than a thrust, and
>a cut is STILL SLOWER than a thrust.

>Which was, of course, the original topic.

I disagree and hope this logic isn't flawed.  Suppose that the velocity
that you can push at your hands (Vlin) is the same as the velocity you can
swing (Vradial*Larm) your arms at the hands.  Let's use the same sword (ie.
same mass) for both cases of cutting and stabbing.  Therefore the velocity at
the tip of the sword during a thrust is the same as your push:
	Vtip|lin = Vlin
The tip velocity for slashing is given by: 
	Vtip|rad = Vrad * (Larm + Lsword)
So with proper substitution:
	Vtip|rad = Vlin + Vrad*Lsword
Which means that Vtip|rad > Vtip|lin.  Also translating into more power,
energy and momentum.

I think what needs to be clarified is that thrusting requires less energy
(no moments needed, only pushing) and will concentrate pressure (what is
needed for cutting) at the point rather than along an edge (which is
also why in Kendo points are awarded only for hits with the top third or
fourth of the weapon).  It is probably faster to execute a stabing
manuever as opposed to a slash (since the sword needs to move out of
rest, to strike position, to target; a thrust is already in strike position
for most rest postures).

>So, with all due respect, BE GONE!  :-)

No!  If _you_ do not go I will taunt you a second time!  :-)


Will "no thanks, we already got one" Christie
-- 
==========================================================================
  Any opinions expressed above are usually made with some thought which   
  is my own and is not intended to represent the University in any way.
==========================================================================
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Drop Outs
Keywords: fencers
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:13:55 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

>>The "combat culture" is not something that women are
>>much interested in.  
>
>Have to disagree with you here; I think they're interested in this
>stuff; it's just that the instruction in those arts is not geared
>to accommodate to women's needs.
>
For the women who stay, yes.  But I've seen far more women
than men drop out of my bok fu dojo, and I've always liked
having them *not* "take it easy" on me because I'm female. And
I've encountered an awful lot of women who like the aggression
of combat sports, except when the aggression is aimed at them,
i.e. they get thrown, kicked, blade-whipped, etc.
 
>Personally, I think lack of arm strength (and hence arm speed)
>is the reason a lot of women get frustrated with fencing, even
>though it's a lot more equal (and less painful) than Taekwondo
>(the other art I do).

I think you might have something, there.  I know that arm
strength has always been my problem.  (Not shoulder strength,
but arm, especially forearm, strength.)  This makes a
difference when you are holding up anything from a foil to a
boxing glove to just a set of zills (yes, I've done belly
dancing) for a prolonged period of time.  It takes time to
build up the strength, and a lot of people leave before they
get to that point.  And you've GOT to keep working with
weights, doing pushups, etc, or it falls off really fast.  

--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: rosen@pooh.sdd.trw.com (Daniel Rosen)
Subject: Fencing in Ventura County California
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 20:28:27 GMT

I suppose I could wait for an FAQ or some such to post this, but what
the heck. I figure that a lot of people are beginners/relocating/travel
a lot for business and might be interested in where the various fencing
salles are located around the country. Given that the USFA's list is
notoriously inaccurate I figured that I would let everyone know about
my local club and perhaps inspire others to post info on their club.

Anyway, I fence for   Conejo Fencers  in Thousand Oaks, California which
is just into Ventura County (~15 miles from the San Fernando Valley down
the Ventura Freeway. We meet at Conejo Park every Tuesday and Thursday
from about 5:30 to 6:30 then Saturday from 10:30 till we all decide
to stop. Beginners are most welcome. There is no fee for occasional
drop ins with a modest ($40 for 10 weeks) fee for steady fencers. We are
an "old school" salle and encourage good technique and sportsmanship.
Anyone wishing additional info, can call or email me.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Rosen(foil & sabre)	email: rosen@pooh.sdd.trw.com
Senior Researcher		       rosen@aurora.sdd.trw.com
TRW Defense and Space		       rosen@eyor.sdd.trw.com
One Space Park  R2/1104		voice: (310)812-0803
Redondo Beach, CA  90278	FAX  : (310)812-7147
================================================================
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:10:29 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

>The Italian hilt: a thicker, straight hilt with two horizontal finger
>                  rings and a crossbar just behind the bell.  I have
>                  also heard this called a Spanish hilt.
I learned this as Spanish, and recall Italian as a different
style, but it's been a long time...
>
>To me, by the way, a "real sword" means something like my claymore...
Actually, Grendle isn't a claymore, dear, the blade isn't
shaped right...  The right size, though.

>or my 1725-pattern Scots basket-hilted broadsword...  
WHOSE Scots broadsword?  (Sorry, I'm the wife mentioned below.
I can see we're going to have a dispute over weapons
custody...) ;-)
>or my wife's 1845 British artillery sword...  
Oh good, at least he hasn't claimed that one yet...

--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
From: nyden@wdl30.wdl.loral.com (William Nyden)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Weapons preferences flame war :-)
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:39:14 GMT
Organization: Space Systems/Loral

In article <13918@ecs.soton.ac.uk> ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Lewis AJ) writes:
>In <1992Dec3.103439.24287@dutrun2.tudelft.nl> edwin@dutlru2.tudelft.nl
>(Edwin Wisse) writes:
>
>>(When *will* the "epee/foil/sabre is better/nicer than epee/foil/sabre"
>>flamewar start? :-)
>
>OK you're on - epee is a weapon for failed foilists.
>
>I've always said that, and now that epee is my favourite weapon, I

but:

  Epeeists have stiffer weapons... and use them all over your body!

-- 
 Bill Nyden                          |    I do not officially represent anyone
  ( nyden@wdl1.wdl.loral.com )       |    other than myself on this network...
   SSI DiveCon 0006DC                |    ...and sometimes not even me.
   Nullum prandium gratuitum         |
From: timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Keywords: KEYWORDS
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:50:34 GMT
Organization: The David Taylor Model Basin

Sounds good!  I'd suggest that the proposed SCA keyword be broken up
into:

RATTAN   for the SCA heavy/armored/"swordjock" contingent
RAPIER   for SCA and related historical fencing style discussion

And, in a vain attempt to defeat Godel's theorem,

KEYWORDS  for the discussion of proper keyword selection.
-- 
--- Tim Smith ---  timsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil ---- (301)227-1611 ---
----- Code 1522, David Taylor Model Basin, Bethesda, MD  20084 -----
----- The Secretary will disavow all knowledge of my opinions. -----
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS)
Subject: Re: A fencing life (was Re: Drop Outs)
Keywords: fencers
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:59:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.005312.21145@rtsg.mot.com> svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
>
>And has anyone ever found themselves:
>...
>   . Standing up while riding a moving bus or train, starting to stumble, and
>	automatically saving with a nice advance-retreat move?
>


Ahhh, subway surfing.  One of the best ways to attune yourself to
balance.  Raise the toe of the front foot here.  Raise the heel of the
back foot there.  Works almost all the time.

:-)

-Patricia
 penfold@rock.concert.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Fencing IS a sport (was: Re: French grips suck!)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:59:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.215912.27547@news.uiowa.edu> rcnelson@icaen.uiowa.edu (Ryan Christian Nelson) writes:
>>>>          I always add a draw cut after a hit, because that is
>>>>          the way to do damage to an opponent.
>
>I've ALWAYS hated people who do stuff like this.  Unless I'm playing your
>game WITH you, then I don't want you playing attilla the hun while I'm 
>trying to advance to the next pool.

Why not?  Does it affect YOUR game in any way?

>I suppose that, in order to keep historical perspective, when playing chess,
>when you capture your opponant's queen you always behead the piece?

Nope.  Obviously, I practice fencing for different reasons than you
do.  Am I not allowed to play if I don't do things the way you want
me to?  If I was really to practice finishing techniques on you
(the way I would want to), then I would:

draw cut
back spin kick to ankle
axe or side kick to ribs OR
follow you down as you fall (doing a correct breakfall of course) and
either do a knifehand to the neck (finisher) or a control move
rolling you onto your stomach and putting a jointlock on (add
a choke here for Judo afficianadoes).

BUT even if I want to do this, I don't because I'm not practicing
that stuff right now; I'm doing Fencing.  I don't see that the draw
cut is not a part of fencing.

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

PS:  For those appalled at my apparent love of violence, please
remember that all those techniques would be faked or pulled, and
would not be done with someone who didn't know how to fall.



Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing