HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey)
Subject: Re: The paths of the dead
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:29:51 GMT

In article <D40374W.92Nov23223328@kaira.hut.fi>, d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen) writes:
|> 
|> This is something that has bothered me for ages:
|> 
|> In the paths of the dead, Aragorn & co encounter a skeleton that is
|> still clutching the seams of a door he had desperately tried to open.
|> Who was this man and what was behind that door? Has it been explained
|> anywhere? 

Yes, though you may not have caught it in all the cross-references.  Aragorn
clear _knew_ who the person was, from the comments he made.  I deduce that he
knew this because of the time he spent among the Rohirrim in his youth (recall
that he knew Eomer's father Eomund).

In one of the Appendices to LoR, Tolkien discusses the royal lines of the
Rohirrim.  In the First Line (I think), the son of one of the kings swore an
oath to walk the Paths of the Dead.  He was never heard from again.  No one
else, before or since (until Aragorn) attempted that feat.  It follows that the
skeleton Aragorn found was that of this rash young Prince of Rohan (my term
only!).

|> The atmosphere of the paths of the dead was so eerie and interesting
|> that this incident still haunts (an appropriate word, eh? <grin>) my
|> mind every now and then. 
|> 
|> And second, has the fate of the entwives been told about anywhere? I
|> have only read LotR, Silmarillion, The unfinished tales and The hobbit.
|> But I have read LotR over ten times so you could count me as a fan, ;-)

It is not mentioned in Unifinished Tales, or in the first three volumes of the
History of Middle Earth (volumes 5-9 cover the Third Age).  I'm hoping to get
the rest for Christmas, even if I have to get them myself :-)
						-- Michael Kelsey
-- 
[  My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government  ]
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.  Attack ships on fire off
the shoulder  of Orion.   I've watched  C-beams glitter in  the darkness
near the Tannhauser Gate.  All these memories will be lost in time, like
tears in the rain."  -- Roy Batty
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tsglass@eos.ncsu.edu (TRAVIS SHAY GLASS)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Originator: tsglass@c00547-106ps.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tsglass@eos.ncsu.edu (TRAVIS SHAY GLASS)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:05:16 GMT


It is obvious that Tolkien's great epic was revolving around a great theme,
a theme which may have been somewhat unintentional, of power.  Boromir was
motivated by this lusting for power when he tried to gain the ring, an item
that had a central force dealing with it's power and control not only over the
races of Middle Earth but also the other rings of POWER.

It's also obvious that Boromir rose above his lust for power when he valiently
defended the hobbits.  Not only did he defend them but also admitted to Aragorn
his mistake in trying to take the ring away from Frodo.

Boromir died not only to save the hobbits, but also to redeem himself.  I think
that Tolkien pushed Boromir back into position of hero when Boromir's last stand
occured.  Tolkien made a point that power, however strong it might feel, is not 
great as man's knowing of wrong and right.  Boromir knew what was right and 
came back to his principle's when rediscovering this ideal and casting away the
power that drove him.
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: question about bombadil quote on the barrow downs
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:30:37
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu


After Bombadil frees the hobbits from the barrow, Tom looks though the
barrow-wight's treasure trove and gives the hobbits their Numenorean
dagger/swords, Tom picks a broach out of the pile and says `beautiful was
she who once wore this on her shoulder' or something like that.  I've
always wondered ifanyone else has any idea who Bombadil is talking about in
this sentence.  Does anyone have a clue?

	Thanks,

	Mike.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gandalf@chopin.udel.edu (Louis E. Keiner)
Subject: Re: The paths of the dead
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:07:56 GMT

The skeleton that Aragorn and Company found in the paths of the dead
belonged to the son of one of the early kings of Rohan. ( I'm at school
and don't have the book handy for the exact name.....) He rashly swore
to enter the paths of the dead, did, and never came back. I believe that
the reference is in the appendix of LOR dealing with the history of Rohan.

Lou

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: 861033h@dragon.acadiau.ca (Michael S. Hogan)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:30:50 GMT

890554h@dragon.acadiau.ca (Andrew Hoogerwerf) writes:

>It was great, I mean the animation was fantastic, Gollum was perfect, The
>battles were a masterpiece . The only problem was that the version I saw
>ended halfway through The Two Towers, if anyone knows if there is a part two to
>this movie could you please inform me.

I think the name of the second part is "Return of the King".

I saw it last summer and found it to be marginally better than the original.

-- 
******************************************************************************* 
      Michael S. Hogan             *    *    Jodrey School of Computer Science 
Michael.Hogan@dragon.AcadiaU.CA    *    *    Acadia University, Wolfville, N.S.
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:13:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.075845.11680@williams.edu> 93rmm@williams.edu (Lord Jagged) writes:
>   Is Boromir basically laudable and good, or not?
>
>That is: does he completely blow it in trying to take the Ring from
>Frodo, or can we accept this as an expected effect of the power of the
>Ring and forgive him?

I would say that his character has a "tragic flaw" -- it is not so much
that he is good or evil -- but that he has a weakness he does not
recognize and guard against.

(I am also reminded of someone's comment that Tolkin wrote characters
who were architypes of different sides of the personality.)

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko)
Subject: Re: FAQ, a suggestion
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:52:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.200820.639@dxcern.cern.ch> xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:
>I AM not candidate to building this FAQ, since I already maintain
>too much lists, but here are my suggestions:
>          
>  .......................................................................
>        
>
>20. How can I write in Elvish using TeX?
>    There are some fonts around
Anyone knows where ? (for LaTeX)

>
>       Uf....
>
>
>             Jerry
>-- 
>Geraldo Xexeo  | xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch        | In Virtual Reality: MindWeb 
>CERN-PPE Div   | xexeo@rio.cos.ufrj.br (*)   | (*) New Brazilian e-address
>1211 Geneva 23 | bt268@cleveland.freenet.edu | after December 22.
>Switzerland    | gxexeo@cernvm.bitnet        | 


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:43:14 GMT

In <By5ux5.6Jy@lut.fi> reinikka@kraiti.cc.lut.fi (Timo Reinikka) writes:

>What I would like to know is that how common is it that computers in
>networks (ie. internet) are named by the characters found in Tolkien's
>books ?

  I don't recall seeing any Tolkein-ish names on the top 50 machine
names list that gets posted monthly by the folks at nisc.sri.com, but
I don't have the list handy just now.

  My machine wouldn't qualify exactly but should fit in spirit.  Folks
locally couldn't figure out the name, but then I'm the only linguist
in the house and folks here are more into the future that never will
be (i.e. Sci-Fi) than in the past that never was (i.e. Middle Earth).

Ran
atkinson@tengwar.itd.nrl.navy.mil
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gandalf@chopin.udel.edu (Louis E. Keiner)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Followup-To: gandalf@chopin.udel.edu 
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:37:58 GMT

Here in the College of Marine Studies, I've been trying to get a computer
named after Ulmo, but no luck so far....not enough Tolkien fans around....

Lou
From: markg@typhoon.rice.edu (mark gordon )
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Boromir's Dream
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:57:01 GMT
Organization: Rice University

Jerry Xexeo suggested that the dream of Boromir was a call from the Ring.

I do not agree.  Although there is no proof, I say that Tolkien's writings
suggest another scenario for the dream.  Originally, it was not Boromir's
dream, but Faramir.  I think that the key clue comes from the Silmarillion
when discussing Olorin (Gandalf).  There is says that Olorin was capable of
putting wise thoughts into the minds of elves.   I suggest that the dream was
a call from Gandalf to Faramir to go to Elrond's house where he knew that an
alliance would be soon formed to contest Sauron.  Gandalf knew both brothers
well and probably preferred Faramir to take the journey.  Boromir only 
started having the dream after it occurred repeatedly to Faramir.

Alternatively, it could have been Elrond calling to Faramir because Elrond
knew that Gondor's aid would be essential.  That the high elves had ability
for such communication is told in LORD OF THE RINGS when the company is
returning to Rivendell, and Tolkien says that at night Gandalf, Elrond and
Galadriel stayed up late but communicated without talking.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo)
Subject: ANIMATED LotR
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:52:55 GMT

From the FAQ of rec.arts.sf.movie

THERE IS an animated LORD OF THE RINGS, by Ralph Bakshi, which covers
only the first half of the trilogy. The second half was never made.

Rankin and Bass did a completely independent animation of 
THE RETURN OF THE KING and THE HOBBIT.

If I remember another discussion, you CAN'T find the videos, due
to the fact they don't exist. But I saw a pirate copy of LofR once... Can
someone explain this more?

-- 
Geraldo Xexeo  | xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch        | In Virtual Reality: MindWeb 
CERN-PPE Div   | xexeo@rio.cos.ufrj.br (*)   | (*) New Brazilian e-address
1211 Geneva 23 | bt268@cleveland.freenet.edu | after December 22.
Switzerland    | gxexeo@cernvm.bitnet        | 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:15:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.131058.16651@lgc.com> mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak) writes:

>What's the deal with Tom Bombadil?  I never quite figured out his place
>in the story, or even his place in the mythology, and every time I read
>the books the section where the hobbits are with Bombadil seems out of 
>place, as if Tolkien didn't know where he wanted to go with the narrative.

Tom Bombadil (ignoring for a minute the name's origins in a doll) was,
like a few other characters in "LotR" (Farmer Cotton comes to mind),
a refugee from other Tolkien stories and sketches.  The incompleteness
of his character (and I even noticed it the first time I read "LotR")
was due to his being magically transplanted into the narrative from an
entirely different conception.  Kinda similar to the way the ideas from
Tolkien's "Lost Tales" were twisted and mutated and selectively discarded
in the creation of what was to become "The Silmarillion."

I think the common perception that Tom was either a maia or a "lesser
spirit" is accurate, though my first suspicion after my initial reading
of "The Silmarillion" was that he was supposed to be Aule.  I no longer
think so, but it's an intriguing thought...

*******************************************************************************
* "They that can sacrifice essential liberty for the sake of a little         *
*  temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety."--Ben Franklin         *
*******************************************************************************
* "I know how a grown man likes to organize his ham."--David Letterman        *
*******************************************************************************
* "You can't have something for nothing. * Thor Iverson                       *
*  You can't have freedom for free."     * tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu * 
*                           --Neil Peart *				      *
*******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen)
Subject: The paths of the dead
Organization: The rational midnight star
Distribution: alt
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:33:28


This is something that has bothered me for ages:

In the paths of the dead, Aragorn & co encounter a skeleton that is
still clutching the seams of a door he had desperately tried to open.
Who was this man and what was behind that door? Has it been explained
anywhere? 
The atmosphere of the paths of the dead was so eerie and interesting
that this incident still haunts (an appropriate word, eh? <grin>) my
mind every now and then. 

And second, has the fate of the entwives been told about anywhere? I
have only read LotR, Silmarillion, The unfinished tales and The hobbit.
But I have read LotR over ten times so you could count me as a fan, ;-)
--
Tero Valkonen		"Vaikken m{ aina jaksa uskoa ja rakastaa
d40374w@kaira.hut.fi     niin on t{{ll{ viel{ helvetisti kaunista katseltavaa"
			 		-Sielun Veljet
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Bored Of The Rings (Re: Looking for deluxe...)
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:58:55 GMT
 <1992Nov23.164759.7387@cc.tut.fi>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Nov23.164759.7387@cc.tut.fi>
m116180@cc.tut.fi (M{{tt{ Arto) writes:

> >BTW, somebody in this group mentioned "Bored Of The Rings", a parody of what you know.
> >Is it a joke or does this parody exist ? If yes, where ?

Ah, yes, the folks from the Harvard Lampoon...what I remember best were
some of the names substituted for the original LoR characters:
Gandalf : Goodgulf (at the time the book was out, Gulf Oil had a
gasoline       called Goodgulf)
Gollum : Goddam
Frodo : Frito
Sam : Spam
Legolas : Legolamb
Saruman : Serutan (remember, Serutan spelled backwards is "natures")

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ewill@hppcb27.mentorg.com (Eric Williams @ PCB x5577)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Originator: ewill@hppcb27
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:47:17 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In <1992Nov23.075845.11680@williams.edu> 93rmm@williams.edu writes:

> It pains me, even now.  A new alt base for the greatest fantasy author
> to ever live and 7 of the first 8 posts are completely brain dead.
> 
> Oh well, here's a question for you all.
> 
>    Is Boromir basically laudable and good, or not?
> 
> That is: does he completely blow it in trying to take the Ring from
> Frodo, or can we accept this as an expected effect of the power of the
> Ring and forgive him?
> 
> I have my opinion on this, but lets see what you all think.
> 
> 					Lord Jagged

Yes, I forgive him.  He's dead. :-)

It _was_ his desire for the Ring that led him to try to take it (foolish,
to be sure; didn't he think that Frodo would just put it on and run off?)
Certainly Boromir thought that the Ring would be good for Gondor (again,
a bit foolish); possibly a rationalization, but I find it is very hard to say
that Boromor is intrinsically evil (most men have some evil).
I believe he was a good man in hard times; certainly, he was not a saint, but
then who is?  Especially when tempted with evil (masquerading as good) of such
proportions.

And even if he were considered evil by attempting to take the ring, the good he
did in trying to defend the rest of the party from Orcs makes up for it.  (Although,
could that be a death wish? :-)

-----------------

Eric_Williams@mentorg.com

#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <sys/special_disclaimer.h>
polyglut n A person who eats as many languages as possible.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: garrett@Ingres.COM (WE'RE ONLY HERE BECAUSE WE'RE NOT ALL HERE)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Summary: Another sequel  
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:53:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.200947.24810@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu>, tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson)           writes...
>Wasn't the first movie done by...I apoligize in advance for the spelling...
>Ralph Bakshi?  Or is that just a Saruman-induced hallucination?
>There does exist a second part to the movie, done in an animation style
>similar to _The Hobbit_ and one of the worst bastardizations of one of
>my favorite books since _Dune_...

That's saying something. The man who did DUNE the movie should have been
made to read the book first.
> 
>Thor Iverson
> 
>
From: schoi@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Samuel Choi)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Re:Tom Bombadil
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:51:48 GMT
Organization: School of Arts and Sciences, UPENN

>xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:
>Tom is Valar, as far as I am informed.I will try to check the
>information at home.

There's no way Tom is a Valar . . . or is that that plural? . . . in which case
there's no way he's a Vala.  There're only, what, 9, Valar?  Manwe being the
head honcho, then Melkor, and Umlo . . . and then I don't remember.

I've heard someone say that that he's one of the maiar . . . don't know where
that info's from . . .

sam

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Keywords: Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts
Organization: Rocking Pig Enterprises
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:53:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.173611.17514@ncsu.edu> dwharper@eos.ncsu.edu
(DANTE "HATS OFF" HARPER) writes:
>
>Wether or not Borimir was "lawful good"?  Who are we kidding?  One of the 
>most powerful aspects of the tolkien mythos is it's unchristian centering;
>while Tolkien was a devout christian himself, CS Lewis' and his
>friendship (the closest in his life) destroyed itself over Lewis' constant
>wish to fetishize basically pagan mythos into christian morality plays; if you
>want to get moral, read any CS Lewis; please don't asses characters in
>LOR and other tolkien work in terms of their relative "sin" value -- it is
>not in the spirit of the books at all.  And also don't asses them in terms
>of gary gygax' little christian diagrams (fine for early AD&D, terrible for
>a generalized "Fantasy" setting; wait -- Elric was Lawful Bad too...j'scuse).
>	
>Besides; Borimir was a overblown, egotistical sot.  So of course we have to 
>forgive him; he just couldn't help himself (particlarly with the ring helping
>him along).  But he was a sot before, and a repenant sot after. 
>-- 

But let's not forget too, that really he was a basically cardboard
character that Tolkien drew on for a literary effect... everybody
seems to say that they hate him-- well, fine, you're supposed to hate
him (or at the very least not like him).  But at least his death gave
him meaning-- that he was not an inherently EVIL character.
(O, and I have to heartily agree: PLEASE don't even bring up anything
at all relating to D&D-- that will only hinder any real discussions
about Tolkien's work!)

/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
                       /               
/'''   Kyle Wohlmut    -  'Heute back ich, morgen brau ich, und       
c-OO                   /   uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr      
   \   Rocking Pig     -   Kind.  Ach, wie gut dass niemand weiss,
  -     Enterprises    /   dass ich kyle@csli.stanford.EDU heiss.'    
                       -                                              
-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: wyble@ptolemy.noname (Dave Wyble)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Reply-To: wyble@ptolemy.noname.
Organization: Xerox
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:59:50 GMT

> What's the deal with Tom Bombadil?  I never quite figured out his place
> in the story, or even his place in the mythology

The Elves call Tom Bombadil "Oldest, Fatherless" (forgive me, but I don't
remember the Quendi without LOTR in front of me, something like Iain Iarwith)

I don't think anyone really knows who he is or where he came from.  Correct me
if I missed it, but I don't think he is mentioned in The Silmarillion.

> Bombadil seems out of 
> place, as if Tolkien didn't know where he wanted to go with the narrative.

This is not too surprising since the story of Tom Bombadil has been around
for some time (at least in JRRT's head), perhaps he wanted to work Tom in
somehow, and this was the result.  Some fanatics may consider this a direct
afront the JRRT the Master, but he was, after all (dare I say it) only human. 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: The paths of the dead
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:54:32 GMT
Distribution: alt
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <D40374W.92Nov23223328@kaira.hut.fi>, d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen) writes:
|> And second, has the fate of the entwives been told about anywhere? I
|> have only read LotR, Silmarillion, The unfinished tales and The hobbit.
|> But I have read LotR over ten times so you could count me as a fan, ;-)

Just the other day a friend of mine and I were discussing this.  He wondered
if the entwives weren't twisted into trolls.  Now orcs were
twisted elves (reading the Silmarillean confirms that) and I
vaguely remember something like "Trolls were bred in mockery of Ents".
But since Morgoth couldn't create life the trolls had to have been something
else originally, right?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien