From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Abraham
Date: 17 Apr 1992 02:46:13 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu
Summary: Genesis...
Keywords: Ishmael

>In article <1992Apr15.000123.3738@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>In article <45387@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr13.150052.19481@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:

-HR-
>>>The Israelites, to whom the term "Jew" was later applied (actually from
>>>Judah), were the descendents of Jacob, later called Israel.  The Torah
>>>specifically states that Ishmael would found a great nation, but that
>>>the territory now called Palestine, or Judea and Samaria, would go to
>>>the descendents of Isaac and not Ishmael.

I find no such passage in my copy of Genesis.  Please see below.

-NI-
>>So Arabs are descendent of who? Ishmael? I really don't know, can you explain?
>>I will look it up in the Quran. Where would Ishmael find the great nation?

-LG-
>Found in English also means to "establish" or "begin to build", or "start"
>(Foundation)

While Ishmael's (and Abraham's, and Isaac's) [PBUT] covenant with 
G-d is detailed in the Qur'an, I don't recall any detailed 
mention of Muhammed (PBUH)'s descent from him.

-LG-
>It says in the Bible that Ishamel will be the father of a great nation. 
>It is in the chapter in Genesis (the first book) where Abraham sends
>Hagar and her son out into the wilderness.  Hagar asks for help,
>and G-d says that he will make a great nation out of Ishmael.

From the RSV, 1952:

Genesis 12:2-3 [The L-rd promises Abram his blessing]

"And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and
make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.  I will
bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse;
and by you all the families of the earth will bless themselves."

Genesis 13:14-18 [The L-rd makes a promise to Abram in Canaan]

The L-rd said to Abram after Lot had seperated from him, "Lift up
your eyes, and look from the place where you are, northward and
southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you
see I will give to you and to your descendants forever.  I will
make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if one
can count the dust of the earth, your descendants also can be
counted.  Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the
land, for I will give it to you."

Genesis 15:18  [The L-rd defines the lands of Abram and his seed]

On that day, the L-rd made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To
your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the
great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the 
Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the
Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the
Jebusites."

Genesis 16:3-4 [Ishmael conceived]

Genesis 16:10-12 [The L-rd's angel brings promise for Ishmael]

The angel of the L-rd also said to her, "I will so greatly
multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered for
multitude."  And the angel of the L-rd said to her, "Behold, you
are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name
Ishmael ['G-d hears']; because the L-rd has given heed to your
affliction.  He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against
every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell
over against all his kinsmen."

[Interpretations of 'dwell over against all his kinsmen' anyone?]

Genesis 17:4-8

"Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a
multitude of nations.  No longer shall your name be Abram
['Exalted father'], but your name shall be Abraham ['Father of a
multitude']; for I have made you the father of a multitude of
nations.  I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make
nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you.  And I will
establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants
after you throughout their generations for an everlasting
covenant, to be G-d to you and your descendants after you.  And I
will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of
your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting
posession; and I will be their G-d."

Genesis 17:10-14 [The L-rd defines his covenant with Abraham]

"This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you
and your descendents after you:  Every male amoung you shall be
circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born
in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who
is not of your offspring, both he that is born in your house and
he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised.  So
shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.  Any
uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his
foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my
covenant."

Genesis 17:19-21

G-d said, "No, but Sarah ['Princess'] your wife shall bear you a 
son, and you shall call his name Isaac ['He laughs'].  I will
establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his
descendants after him.  As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold,
I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him
exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will
make him a great nation.  But I will establish my covenant with
Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year."

All the men were circumcised, including Abraham and Ishmael
(PBUT), then, later, Isaac was born, and the L-rd established 
his covenant with Isaac (he was circumcised on the eighth day).

SUMMARY:  

Looks like the covenant was with all of Abraham's descendents
except those who did not keep it (were not circumcised).  The
covenant was established between the L-rd and Abraham and 
Ishmael (PBUT) immediately, but it was established with Isaac 
(PBUH) after his birth.

It is quite clear that the lands mentioned were given to those 
who were of Abraham's descendents, with those not keeping the
covenant being cut off from their people.

The muslims believe that the Promised Land belongs to all people
of G-d.  This is what is in the Bible, and what is in the
Qur'an.  This opinion is not shared by a large number of Jews.



-Nick

Missing letters within this article are missing out of respect to
some readers.

If I have made any errors, I beg Allah (SWT) to point them out to
me that they may be corrected.  If I have made none, it is only
through the Grace of Allah (SWT), and all praise be to 'Him.'