From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: Baidins vs Viznyuk
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 00:07:16 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.160118.29554@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> bohdan@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (bohdan.l.bodnar) writes:
>
>President Hrushevsky of the Ukrainian Republic was elected
>in a free election. Thus his government had a reasonable
>claim to legitimacy. His was the only elected government
>of the three pretenders. Skoropadsky and Lenin were not 
>elected. The miscellaneous gangsters, thugs, and freebooters
>that floated around (Ukrainian, Russian, and others) were 
>not governments and generally didn't pretend that they were. 
>In particular, Makhno never claimed to lead a government 
>(he was an anarchist after all). "Nativeness" has nothing 
>to do with the issue.

  The question was not about goverment but about a state.
You can democratically elect (I doubt though that in Nov.1917 there
was possible democratic elections) a dozen "goverments"
without country. Indeed, despite a plentiful of "goverments" in
Ukraine 1917-1920 there was no such state as Ukraine. Were there
any countries who recognied "independent" Ukraine and Petlura's
"goverment" ? So Bolshevicks have had NOTHING to occupy. The only
thing they did - they just pushed aside those "goverments".
Even now Ukrainian goverment desperately tries to show up
at least some evidence of "independent Ukrainian state" - from
here come all their complexes (the persisent attempts to create
their "own" army, fleet, etc). One could hardly expect
anything reasonable (al least at first) from goverment of a
country which has NEVER been independent. What is more probable
is that there would be Ukrainian Hussein - Saddam Kravchuk.

>S.V.:
>>ask the "ukrainians" on this list, whether they will recognize
>>the Petlura's "goverment" which conducted virtual genocide
>>against minorities and directly responsible for killing
>>of about 100,000 Jews (as was reported here), as "true"
>>and "native" Ukrainian goverment ?

>B.Bodnar:
>This question is very misleading. At the time of the crash of
>the Tsarist Empire, and particularly during 1919, there were 
>roving military units nominally loyal to all imaginable factions 
>which were conducting attacks and reprisals on civilians.
>Pogroms against Jews were conducted by units and individuals
>nominally loyal to the Ukrainian Republic, Russian Reds, Russian
>Whites, and others too. There is no doubt that at least some
>pogroms were committed by each. During raids they often pretended 
>to be somebody they were not, and since everybody was using mixed
>uniforms and equipment seized from the Russian Imperial Army, 
>Austria-Hungary, or whoever else, it was difficult to distinguish
>them.
>
>   [ some staff deleted ]
>
>Can one be as confident about the good intentions of the R-R and R-W 
>leadership in Ukraine as of the UNR's? No. In fact there is evidence 
>to suggest that neither the Ukrainian decolonialist nor the Russian
>communist factions were most responsible for pogroms, but rather the 
>Whites whom Jews were least likely to support. See for example Subtelny's 

This last paragraph is in typical manner of Ukrainian nationalists:
since they are reluctant to acknoledge the genocide of "native"
Ukrainian goverment against minorities, and Reds were not likely to do it
- then who else ? - Of course, Russian White Army !
But the only problem is that those pogroms happened exclusively
in areas, controled by Ukrainian "goverment", and NO ONE where there was
White Army.
  As for your references to Subtelny: with the same success you can
refer to Bendera or Petlura.

>B.Bodnar:
>
>Outsiders may now wonder why historically Ukraine and Ukrainians 
>have been handed exclusive blame for the anti-Jewish pogroms of 1919. 
>The answer is simple. The Ukrainians lost their war of independence, 
>and the new Soviet overlords found it convenient to blame their
>vanquished foes for all the evils that were committed by everyone. 
>The lies over the last 70 years have been so persistent and so thorough 
>that a lot of otherwise intelligent people have come to believe them.

  Even Sovok's propaganda machine didn't broadcast such outspoken
lies as Ukrainian nationalists do. The White Army, which was the worst
enemy of Reds (note - not Ukrainian nationalists, who were considered
as simply bandits, not even worth to be called as "enemy") and whom
the communists accused of all sins somehow avoided the accusations in
pogroms - just because it was too evident and known who did those pogroms.
S.V. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet