HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kaw4t@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Kent A. Watsen)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: what to pack for cyber-travel
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:52:01 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

>> 
>>I'm trying to explore this idea in the sense of ACTUALLY being inside the
>>machine.  You could bring a pack (packet-data?) of stuff.  Like "Neuromancer"
>>your bible, food, or whatever.
>>I figured that a virus construction kit could be a good start..sort of like
>>protection incase something happens while you are on your journey.  A map
>>of cyberspace would also be important. (I'm going to create a map for my
>>thesis)  It's sorta like "I want to go across the country, what should I bring"
>>but is "I want to go across the country in cyberspace, what should I bring"
>> 
	Try Zen and the Art of the Internet

_____________________________________________________________________________
Kent Watsen               "If this were a virus, you would be dead right now,
Kent@Virginia.edu                 fortunately it's not" -- Snow Crash
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: furiop@jec309.its.rpi.edu (Paul Joseph Furio)
Subject: Re: cyberpunk at the arcades
Reply-To: furiop@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:53:12 GMT

Games:  Whats the biggest appeal of VR?  Hey, I can go into a virtual city and kill all those drug pushers I hate so much and never get hurt by them!  I can create a virtual Harem and have sex with beautiful women and not get diseases!  I can visit virtual Iraq and kick Sadams butt!
	The appeal is that we can experience these exhilerating "violent" experiences without any downside.  They will always grow in popularity until people wake up and realize that violence is real, and real violence hurts.  As long as we feed off mind numbing mass media, this won't happen.  But then, VR does have it's good side...
	Nothing will ever be too violent.  As was said in "Hellraiser" (and I am not a Horror Movie fan), the line between pleasure and pain is thin and blurry indeed.
	-Me
 
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:5964 alt.sex:36882 alt.industrial:804 alt.sex.stories.d:451
From: morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (morpheus)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,alt.industrial,alt.sex.stories.d
Subject: Re: ROBO-COPULATION
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:09:21 EST
Organization: the pickle factory at Langley, Virginia

hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Michael P Hartley) writes:

> >>      Those who believe they are the righteous are the ones going to hell.
> >> sinner who knows his soul is black who turns to God in humility and mercy 
> >> ascend to Jesus' throne.

> >And Elvis lives in my basement.

>    The King is dead.   Let him go.   

So is Jesus... Let him go too.

> At least, that's what my buddies Jimmy Hoffa and Bruce Lee say...

Hey.. aren't you that guy Jim Morrison introduced to me a few months ago at
that 'con?


--
morpheus@entropy.mcds.com --
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?   -qr
From: mjb1@drutx.ATT.COM (BurrJ)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Perhaps we have forgotten the teachings of Jesus
Summary: flaming
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:13:34 GMT
Organization: AT&T, Denver, CO

In article <1992Nov19.041140.3878@serveme.chi.il.us>, joeg@gagme.chi.il.us (joe grosch) writes:
> David Pratt (david@shakala.com) wrote:
> : Praise the Lord and pass the Ammunition!
> Pass the Lord and praise the Ammunition!
> 
> --
> Josef Grosch         | It's been a quiet week in Lake Wobegon, my home town...
> joeg@gagme.chi.il.us |       New Yorker by birth, Minnesotan by choice 

This bible pushing is really outta line... I was forced to go to church for
fourteen years by my mum, and I left there for the same reason you should find
a group centered around thes SOME OF US DONT WANT TO HEAR IT. how bout i come
over and yell at your window at two oclock the bonuses of fertalizing with 
manure over chemicals... you wouldnt like it or be interested in it... so 
TAKE A HINT if anything in cyberpunk at least preach scientology- that is
in the rough direction even if it has the same problem- centering the answer
to all unexplainables under the old guy upstairs in a nightshirt wants it that 
way and there by not answering any questions


THE PUDDLEJUMPER
From: system@korova.freeside.com (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Fwd: the sexism thang
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 17:29:47 CST
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

dmatiske@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (david matiskella) writes:
> |> *just by virtue of being male* are likely to earn a dollar to every sixty
> |> cents a woman is likely to earn. 
> 	Can anyone quote the orginal source of this statistic. I constantly hear it 

i dunno. i even heard it off laurie anderson's "Strange angels" song 
Beautiful Red Dress. "that means by the  year 2888 well finally make a 
buck.."

squid

**************************************************************************
        the official "i CANT BELIEVE its not a REAL POLITICIAN!!"
                                headquarters
me@korova.rivdell.com   *this human form/where i was born/i now repent*
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: dmatiske@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (david matiskella)
Subject: Re: Fwd: the sexism thang
Reply-To: dmatiske@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (david matiskella)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:02:40 GMT

In article <Qf1LPMy00iV3Q2xYta@andrew.cmu.edu>, wg2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Scott Gregory) writes:
 Economically, you and I
|> *just by virtue of being male* are likely to earn a dollar to every sixty
|> cents a woman is likely to earn. 
	Can anyone quote the orginal source of this statistic. I constantly hear it being batted arund but no one can ever refer me to the orginal paper. I find it hard to believe that a woman lawyer with 10 years of experience would be making 60,000 dollars when the man with the same amount of experience would be making 100,000. If this were true a woman would have no trouble finding employment since even an idiot would realize that he could be saving his company 40,000 dollars a year. I have a feeling that they


 are just comparing the average salary that a man makes with the average salary that a woman  makes, in which case the subject is total different than workplace discrimination.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: mfreund@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark W Freund)
Subject: Re: cyberpunk at the arcades
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:01:32 GMT

In article <If2FGVK00WCZMiA11_@andrew.cmu.edu> Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>  the reason i posted this here in alt.cyberpunk was because i
>> think this type of super-violent videogame is exactly the
>> type to dominate our future (that and VR games).
>
>Just outta curiosity, WHY do you think these ultra-violent games will
>(should?) dominate our future?  (Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Mortal
>Combat, and have wasted waaayyy to much money on it...)
>Chris

Well, lets turn that into a question, You mentioned that you spend a lot
of money on it (This is not a criticism). Would you also spend as much time
and money on a similar game with comparable graphics in which a car races
around a track? or a giant pac-man eating dots?

Well, I dont think I would either.  Mankinds violent nature surfaces rather
easily and I sincerely believe that the arcade game companies, movies, and
TV will cater to our ever darkening interests. This is why I for one believe
that our future will darken into a more violent civilization.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= mfreund@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu			OZY+@osu.edu      -
- "I only kill to know I'm alive, so what?"	-Ministry                 =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: cstadba@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr C D Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Neuromancer the Music and Movie
Date: 17 Nov 1992 22:48:15 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: clover.csv.warwick.ac.uk


In article <gf2GJbS00aw3IC_G1n@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Curtis E. Bower" <cb4m+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> I agree that Industrial is the way to go.  
|> >FLA, definatly.  But NIN?... nah.  Too.. soft.  Gotta have that
|> >nails-on-blackboard bangbangbangbang sound.
|> NIN to soft?  have you heard broken?  
|> >Maybe just have some guy bang some electronic equiptment together violently.
|> >Smash a keyboard into an empty chassis for that echo effect... yeah.
|> Hey, that would be pretty neat.  Real industrial, or maybe just do dome
|> sampling at a steel plant and throw in some screaming or sumpthin.  

This may be going against the feel of the film, but how about some of Queens
older stuff.  "Machines' World (Back to humans)" seem particulary appropriate, and
there is another one called something like "Hammer to fall" which has a really
good beat to it.  Maybe the first for the part where Case is with the Turing
people and the second for the arcade?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Ward                + Tries hard, fails to achieve the low standards he
cstadba@csv.warwick.ac.uk + sets himself, works well with a broom.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: tjk5@po.cwru.edu (Timothy Kordas)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Neuromancer dream-cast and soundtrack
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:40:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b62144.student.cwru.edu

In article <wilder.721963915@mik.uky.edu> wilder@nx03.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder) writes:
>From: wilder@nx03.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
>Subject: Re: Neuromancer dream-cast and soundtrack
>Date: 17 Nov 92 01:31:55 GMT
>In <tjk5.33.721954145@po.cwru.edu> tjk5@po.cwru.edu (Timothy Kordas) writes:
>
>|I believe that _Le Femme Nikita_ was produced in 1991, or at least that's
>|what the flyer I got when I saw it says (pinned above my desk). She doesn't
>|really fit my image of Molly very well....I second Jennifer Jason Leigh
>|(short haired one :-) ).......
>
>That's odd.  I wouldn't swear to it, but I was very certain that _La_
>Femme_Nikita_ was listed in TVGuide as early '80s when I watched it last
>Tuesday night.  Typo, maybe?

Your source or mine? :-) Well I've heard it said several times that 
just after _La Femme Nikita_ came out, that one of the big mainstream
producers picked up the story and was going to hollywoodize it (BAD IDEA!)
--that was only about a year ago...It also LOOKED pretty modern to me,
ie not '82 clothes....

Where/when was it playing on TV?? did they play the dubbed version (corny
bad actors who completely destroyed all of the tension in the movie, and 
actually made scenes--like the opening drug-store sequence--funny when it
shouldn't have been)


>|Why is everybody suggesting such young actors for Case? Case is not old
>|but he is not NEARLY as young as Bobby Newmark (Count Zero)...
>
>Case is 24, but looks older, according to his description and Gibson's
>description of the kind of life he led in Ninsei.  I agree with you about
>the younger actors, but you wouldn't want to get too old, either.  I'd
>say look for a dark haired Anglo actor (sorry, Andy Garcia...), who can  
>pull off the wasted, permanent 5 o'clock shadowed look that Gibson de-
>scribes.  He should preobably be in his early thirties.

PERFECT

>I also think the BIG NAMES (tm) should be avoided for *all* of the char- 
>acters.  Most of the BIG NAMES (tm) are action film stars, and would drag
>all the expectations of certain cliched characters to the roles with them.

It would be a VERY VERY VERY bad thing for anybody who's been in a mainstream
Hollywood picture in the last few years to show up--it would also be nice to
get actors from many countries to add to the international feeling of places
like Chiba City and the Sprawl (sort of a dark side to the Wim Wenders
_Until the end of the World_ environment)


-Tim Kordas
kordas@snowhite.eeap.cwru.edu
From: raa@guild.socal.com (Raa Lopez)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Ono-Sendai
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:06:36 PST
Organization: TheGuild[FTS]

YES! Ono-Sendai! Send Mee they're adress! I wanna get some stuff there. Do they have a Net Adress? Coud someone post it if they do ...

    __ ___ ________/\_____  ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
    \//___\\__  ___/\____/\/__//__//__//__//__/\
 ____//__//\\/ /\__\/\___\/\__\\__\\__\\__\\__\/ r@guild.socal.com
/________/ //_/ / DigiT.W.I.T. Ink. UnLtd. '92! Wheeze Bee JPL!!!
\________\/ \_\/  Pffffttt!!!...Pop!!!...Bang!!!.....Etc.!!!?

--- Via UCI v1.16 (C-Net Amiga)


: The opinions of this user are his/her own and do not necessarily reflect :
: the opinions of The Guild BBS [FTS]. (Especially if he's a DigiTWIT!)    :
From: aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Steven J.)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Realtime unreality
Date: 23 Nov 1992 21:51:14 GMT
Organization: Jobs With Peace at UWM
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.30

bliss32@terapin.com (Geoff Schmidt) writes:
: In article <1eeemmINNjrd@uwm.edu>, aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Steven J.)
: writes:
: >Just a quick sign-o-the-times note.  I recently traded a Timex/Sinclair
: >computer for a 'Internet World Tour' t-shirt from a fellow netter.  Just
: >think about it ... a t-shirt for a functional (sort of) computer ... amazing
: >when you think about it.
: >
: >
: >______________________________________________________
: >Steve J. White
: >my virtual spheres of consciousness can be reached at:
: >aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu
: >aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
: 
: Got a LoD World Hacking Tour shirt huh?  You can buy em for $15 (about the same
: as the sentimental value of a TI/Sinclair
: 
:  bliss

Uh huh ... but I paid only $3 for the Timex at a rummage sale about 3 years
ago.  Considering the limitations of the thing, I'd rather build my own
Little Blue Boxes {tm} to do the things I've wanted to do with the Timex
since I bought it.


______________________________________________________
Steve J. White
my virtual spheres of consciousness can be reached at:
aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu
aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:6078 rec.arts.sf.written:15198
From: earl@cco.caltech.edu (Earl A. Hubbell)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Technology in the Background (was Re: Diamond-hard SF)
Date: 24 Nov 1992 00:53:28 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:

>In article <1992Nov18.205145.14273@julian.uwo.ca>, 
>jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: 
>> In article <of2RgxW00WB=FlcGtC@andrew.cmu.edu> Patrick C Leger 
>><pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes: 
>> 
>>>On the other hand, if you are like me and find SF more interesting if it
>>>centers on the characters and their stories, and delegates the
>>>technology to the background (the way we treat it in day to day life),
>>> [...]
>> 
>> 	Has anyone else attempted to watch a contemporary film from 
>> the POV of a hypothetical viewer from the past? It is difficult to
>> notice technological changes between, say, the 1950s to 1990s, even
>> though they are many, either because they are concealed serving  in
>> 
>> 	Personal computers stand  out. Very little else does.

>   Neat observation!  Yeah... unless technology is somehow the focus of 
>the movie (as in *Wargames* or *The Hunt for Red October*), the 
>differences that would come across are *cultural*.  This isn't to say that 

	The primary technologies that stand out are the assorted links
in the communications infrastructure surrounding us today - portable
phones, cheap, small videocameras, satellite technologies, Post-It notes,
Walkmen, personal faxes, videotape, cassettes, compact disks, answering
machines...
	Most other items fade into the background, because they seldom
seem important to the characters ("Why yes, Sue 194K4, that is a halogen
light source") >except< when they fail - most medical technology only
appears when the characters are irritated by it ("Gotta change my contacts."
"I'm sorry, we don't have a compatible organ to transplant.").  
	On the other hand, it is rather fun to count all the background
items...microwave ovens, Lycra biking & exercise wear, crash helmets,
modern bicycles, printing all over T-shirts, remote controls, liquid
crystal displays, the rise of plastics, Kevlar body armor...

>   --Jesse.
-- 
'You can tell I'm educated/I studied at the Sorbonne *earl@tybalt.caltech.edu
Doctorate in Mathematics/I could have been a Don     *Earl Hubbell
I can program computers/Choose the perfect Time      *Opinions solely mine.
If you've got the inclination/I've got the Crime" -Opportunities, Pet Shop Boys
From: rglass@PCS.CNU.EDU (Randall Glass)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: cyberpunk at the arcades
Date: 16 Nov 1992 14:48:28 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


 has anyone seen this arcade game?  "Mortal Kombat".
 i'm surprised they've actually allowed this game in the
arcades.

 for those of you who don't know this game... 
  Mortal Kombat is a two player fighting game.
  (ever seen Street Fighter II?)
  each figure was digitized from a real person.
  there are a number of fighters: 2 assassins, a cyborg, etc.

  when you hit your opponent, blood (and lots of it) goes
flying to the ground.  after you've successfully knocked off
all of your opponents health, you can perform a 'finishing move'.
 with the right combination of joystick moves and button presses,
your character could: rip out your opponents heart, spine, punch
off your head, or burn you to a crisp.

  the reason i posted this here in alt.cyberpunk was because i
think this type of super-violent videogame is exactly the
type to dominate our future (that and VR games).

Other 'violent" arcade games:
	Smash TV    (Williams)
	NARC        (Williams)
	PIT Fighter (ATARI)
	Terminator ][ 
	Lethal Enforcers (shoot digitized crooks with gun) GREAT!

-- 
	Randall Glass
	rglass@pcs.cnu.edu
EOF
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: FRICHARD@biomed.med.yale.edu (Frank Richardson)
Subject: Re: what to pack for cyber-travel
Organization: very little
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:50:05 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Nov18.194414.1@tesla.njit.edu> kpm8447@tesla.njit.edu writes:

>
> I'm doing a thesis on the idea of actually TRAVELLING INSIDE the machines
> in cyberspace.  Any info would be appreciated.
>
Far out. What department are you in that supports thesis choices like the
above? Or is this for an undergrad senior thesis project?

What to bring: Your wits. What else is required? You can't bring physical
objects if you are just a representation of data. Or are you assuming that you
will have sensory perception as in the reality? In that case, are the "physical
objects" you bring just there as interface tools, i.e. like icons which you
would use to execute commands? 
A camera would be nice - gottat have something for that scapbook!
C-ya
FcR

####################################################################
Usual home of my sphere of consciousness:           "I drank what?"
frichard@biomed.med.yale.edu                      -Attributed to
frichard@yalmed.bitnet                              Socrates,399B.C.
#####################################################################
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:10:28 -0500 
From: Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Neuromancer: Movie
Distribution: world

Excerpts from netnews.alt.cyberpunk: 21-Nov-92 Neuromancer: Movie by Mr
C D Ward@csv.warwick. 
> Who is going to do the cyberspace scenes, will it be left to one of the
> giants, such as industrial light and magic, or should some of the smaller
> production companies be let loose. the smaller company may not have the
> manpower, but they might produce a better result, perhaps being closer
> to the ideas that the book is about??
>  
I'd say give it to ILM, or maybe some company into simulations.  Pretty
much anyone with a lot of time, money, and a few nice Silicon Graphics
:).
From: bw388@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joseph Robert Blaylock)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: WhatIs all This?
Date: 15 Nov 1992 20:54:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I've	I've been on alt.cyberpunk for a few days now, reading through
some posts, skipping others, and I have a question:

	What do The Golden Rule, Robot Sex, Femminism, and Penis Envy have to 
		do with CyberPunk?

	Sorry, but I just can't see the connection. Now granted, I just probobly
pissed off a bunckh of people in those conversations, and I'll probably get
flamed for it, but really and Seriously see no connection...
#

	--Joe Blaylock
-- 
			---JRBL---
Organization: Masters student, Urban and Public Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 11:52:25 -0500 
From: Scott Gregory <wg2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Diamond-hard SF

Excerpts from netnews.alt.cyberpunk: 20-Nov-92 Re: Diamond-hard SF by
Nick Szabo@techbook.com 
> Gibson is perhaps the exemplar.  He has a good understanding of how
> tech and society interact.  He has skilled style, the ability
> to vividly describe a wide variety of new situations.  Normal 
> characters & plot?  Not much and not dwelt on.  Dilliard and

    Actually, one of the things Gibson has earned highest praise for is
his mastery of character development, a thing you claim to dislike. 
Granted, he doesn't do a lot of "He looked sad.  He was always this or
that" kind of bad character development, yet he molds his prose around
the characters in a way that gives one a great idea as to what they are
all about.  Witness the shifts in his writing style when writing from
the point of view of Mona as opposed to Molly.
    You seem to be shifting your argument to being against *normal*
characters at this point.  That's quite a departure from your attack on
characters in general, but you still err in claiming Gibson exemplary in
this regard.  One of Gibson's great skills lies in taking characters
that our society would consider fringers, and portraying them in a way
where their basic human qualities shine forth.

-Scott

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: bladex@wixer.cactus.org (David Smith)
Subject: Re: WhatIs all This?
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 05:18:38 GMT

In article <1e6de7INNqm9@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bw388@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jose
ph Robert Blaylock) writes:
>
>I've	I've been on alt.cyberpunk for a few days now, reading through
>some posts, skipping others, and I have a question:
>
>	What do The Golden Rule, Robot Sex, Femminism, and Penis Envy have to
>		do with CyberPunk?
>
>	Sorry, but I just can't see the connection. Now granted, I just probobly
>pissed off a bunckh of people in those conversations, and I'll probably get
>flamed for it, but really and Seriously see no connection...
>#
>
>	--Joe Blaylock
>--
>			---JRBL---


If you stick around for six months or longer, Joe, then you'll end up bored
with the "standard" cyberpunk topics and will be willing to latch onto and
follow any interesting slip streams.

The benefit of electronic media is that you are able to create your own
conversations, simply by posting an article.  If there is something that you
wish to discuss, that isn't currently being discussed, please go ahead.
Don't hold back; let it out.

I only ask you read the FAQ first before doing so.

-- 
  bladex@wixer.cactus.org           |              Cyberlicious Software
 "I think cyberpunk is the latest attempt by American hipsters to escape
the squalid intellectual environment that surrounds them.  This is not a
bad goal."  Karl Myers, Talking Raven 
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:5892 alt.industrial:780 alt.sex:36596 alt.sex.bondage:22299