HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes)
Subject: Re: rec.motorcycles.harley vote acknowledgment
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:09:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.202649.19552@ncsu.edu> steve@bucolix.ece.ncsu.edu (Steve Garnier) writes:
>If you want to know who they are, just peruse the list below, where I've
>delineated *SUSPECTED* cheats.  You might be surprised.  Some people don't
>even cheat *well*.  At least it's *FINALLY* over.  :-)
>
>   ---A List Of Suspected Ballot-Box Stuffers---
> CAD8025@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca "Problem Reporting, A" 
> ACAD8059@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca Mike Mychalkiw 
> ADVI8721@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca advisor's utility disk 
> 
     ^^ consider the possibility he simply got the nearest couple
     of co-workers to vote too.

> FURRJK@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Joel Furr 
> Furr@cup.portal.com 
     ^^ i know for a fact these to be different persons, Furr@cup.portal
    was visiting me last week...
    Furr is a nickname, not a realname.

> 
> sb3t+@andrew.cmu.edu "Shirl G. Grant" 
> sggrant+@pitt.edu Shirley G Grant 
> 
> sybase!leighann@Sun.COM Leigh Ann Hussey 
> sybase!leighann@Sun.COM Leigh Ann Hussey Oster 

also consider the possibility of people
   a) absent minded and forgot they already voted
   b) confused about the whole process and voted "to be sure" knowing
      that "hey, no problem, they will remove any duplicates"


get off your moral indignation steve...

-- 
   - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada    [43.47N 80.52W]
         kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca   postmaster@thinkage.com   thinkage!kgdykes
         harley-request@thinkage.on.ca             kgdykes@math.uwaterloo.ca
From: dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Impropriety in soc.culture.tamil vote (Re: soc.culture.tamil
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:13:21 GMT
Distribution: news
Organization: A.R.M. Ltd, Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs, UK

In article <2868@ucl-cs.uucp> B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk writes:

>In article  of "17 Aug 92 17:25:15 GMT." <5413@armltd.uucp> 
>David Seal dseal@armltd.co.uk writes
> 
>>In article <1992Aug14.221326.15445@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
>>alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>>
>>>Assume for a moment that he [the vote-taker] is innocent and nothing wrong ha
>ppened.
>>>Why is he then refusing to provide the data requested from him for last
>>>25 days ?.
>>
>>One simple suggestion: the cost of email. Do you realise how many kilobytes
>>the text of all the votes in even a small poll would add up to, and how much
>>it would cost to send them to everyone who took it into their heads to check
>>the results? ...
>
>This argument does not hold. There are 645 yes messages. If we assume that
>each message was 100 byte, it will only make it around 64 Kbyte. Use any
>compression and you would have a nearly 50 to sixty percent reduction.
>Do you think 30 Kbyte is big file?? Just around 30 Packets of 1Kbyte
>each. 

Yes, *if* you assume that each message is 100 bytes long. Unfortunately,
this is practically never true, except possibly for messages that remain
completely on one site (which only applies to a minute proportion of Usenet
votes).

The reason is that email messages arrive with a whole lot of header fields,
giving the name of the sender, who the message is for, the subject, the
route it took through the email system and other miscellaneous information.
The routing information in particular can become quite voluminous.

I've done a quick scan through email messages I have received from other
sites: they range from about 700 bytes of header information up to 2k. The
average is probably about 900 bytes to 1k. Add on the hundred or so bytes of
actual message, and you can probably count on an average vote length of 1k
or more.

So the uncompressed votes are likely to total 640k or more, not the 64k you
estimate. Compression is likely to work quite well, since there's quite a
lot of repetition in the headers that the compressor can take advantage of.
Even so, I'd guess you're likely to end up with 200-250k of compressed file.
Then this has to be uuencoded (or something similar) for transmission across
the net: this expands the message by about 20%, to something in the range
250-300k.

I agree it's not an impossible amount to ask someone to send *once*. But
sending it to anyone who asks for it goes well beyond what a vote-taker
should be expected to do. If scrutineering at this level is worthwhile (and
I doubt it is - surveying the voters by email is a lot more likely to pick
up real evidence of abuse IMHO), there needs to be some proper mechanism,
not a free-for-all.

David Seal
dseal@armltd.co.uk

All opinions are mine only...
Xref: sparky news.groups:16985 rec.motorcycles:28005 rec.motorcycles.racing:988 rec.motorcycles.dirt:1359 alt.motorcycles.harley:695
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.motorcycles,rec.motorcycles.racing,rec.motorcycles.dirt,alt.motorcycles.harley
Subject: Re: rec.motorcycles.harley vote acknowledgment
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:02:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: i88.1992Aug19.200237.27650
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL

In article <Bt8Lww.2vx@rice.edu> cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>p.s.  I have never ridden a motorcycle and didn't participate in this

You should try it some time.  You'd like it.

>vote and don't care whether the group's created or not, I'm just
>hoping this flame war will go away soon, but after three years on the
>net you'd think I'd turn pessimist and give up hoping stuff like that
>wouldn't you?

What, give up after only 3 years?  Flame wars have been around since
USENET was just a collection of PDP-11's with modems.  Not likely
they'll ever go away.
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
	So just where did George Bush get the idea that he gets to
			decide policy for the U.N.?
From: grego@bit.UUCP (Greg Sanguinetti)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: several instrument-specific rec.music groups
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:17:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: bit.408
Reply-To: grego@bit.UUCP (Grego Sanguinetti)
Organization: BIT  Portland, OR

In article <Bt7pr0.3G7@uunet.uu.net> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>
>Proposal B: Create rec.music.bass, and remove alt.guitar.bass.
>
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES,

I know there are a lot of folks out there that, like myself, cannot
get alt.guitar.bass. It's always a mystery which alt.* groups our
newsfeed carries. I guess they figure alt.sex.beastiality is more
mainstream than alt.guitar* !!!??? But hey, at least I get a newsfeed!
-grego
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grego Sanguinetti, Bipolar Integrated Technology | Water, water everywhere,
grego@bit.uucp or grego%bit%ogi.cse.edu          | but I'd rather drink
or bit!grego@ogi.cse.edu or ...!ogicse!bit!grego | beer.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: steve@bucolix.ncsu.edu (Steve Garnier)
Subject: Re: rec.motorcycles.harley vote acknowledgment
Reply-To: steve@bucolix.ece.ncsu.edu (Steve Garnier)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:35:43 GMT

In article <7w!ngya@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>steve@bucolix.ece.ncsu.edu (Steve Garnier) writes:
>>>> CAD8025@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca "Problem Reporting, A" 
>>>> ACAD8059@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca Mike Mychalkiw 
>>>> ADVI8721@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca advisor's utility disk 
>> I would like to see names attached to these "users", in a manner that
>> would uniquely and adequately identify them as someone other than "Mike
>> Mychalkiw".  I'd like the net to be able to scrutinize this to the
>> "usual" level of *proof*, whatever that is. 
>If the ambiguity of these votes bothers you, Steve, you should take the
>time to investigate the problem yourself.  I agree that it's an interesting
>situation -- I've had to deal with similarly questionable votes when I've
>run CFVs -- but since changing or eliminating these votes wouldn't have any
>effect on the outcome, I don't think it's a problem that demands the attention
>of the entire net.

I have attempted to contact the three above-listed accounts, but have had
no reply.  It's possible that the votes have sailed off into the aether.

I have not attempted to contact root@alaska, yet.  And what do you do if
the email is returned?  The bottom line is that there is simply no way
to verify that the email was transmitted by someone other than the "suspect".

>> Like I've said in many posts, honest mistakes are understandable, and
>> are certainly not shameful.  If these were honest mistakes, then it's
>> OK.  Is it too much to ask for the "Boo-Boo-Maker" to give an
>> explanation? 
>
>If all you wanted was an explanation, you could have just emailed the
>addresses in question and asked for one.  Did you?

Read the previously written statements a few lines above.  I have no need
to contact sybase!leighann@Sun.COM Leigh Ann Hussey, a.k.a.
sybase!leighann@Sun.COM Leigh Ann Hussey Oster anymore, since I can 
understand how something as minor as a CFV compares to the tumult of
affairs of the heart; I've forgotten to do things when my life was upset.
Let me repeat that I never intended my use of "suspicion" to be interpreted
by others as "accusation".  If Leigh Ann has taken offense, then she has
my most sincere public apology.

I have emailed sb3t+@andrew.cmu.edu "Shirl G. Grant" and
sggrant+@pitt.edu Shirley G Grant, but have not yet received a response.
That might take some additional time to obtain.

Steve Garnier - DoD #00000005 - '79 XS1100SF w/ 157K+ miles and *climbing*
KotF (Flame),  KotAM (Anecdotal Motorcycle),  The Daemon's Byte
       Contrary to popular belief, I am not the Devil's advocate...
                  ...but I am his speech writer.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Re: Bogus moderated groups (was Re: changing the moderator...)
Followup-To: news.groups
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:53:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.082619.848@galaxy.gov.bc.ca> EWILTS@GALAXY.GOV.BC.CA writes:
:As pointed out above, read news.announce.newgroups.  There are monthly
:checkgroups posting that contains all the valid newsgroups.  You'll most likely
:want to process the one with the inet groups.  When the checkgroups is
:processed, you will have all the groups you are supposed to have, have deleted
:the bogus ones, and have valid descriptions for all the valid groups.
:

I just checked the last 2 weeks of n.a.n and found lots of call for votes,
request for discussions, results of votes, new group summarys and status
of votes.  I have seen the Spafford list of 'usenet' groups, alternative
groups but I know that we at least have quite a number of additional groups
from various regions, etc.  I am curious if anyone has written any scripts
that would take the various postings and generate one list which could be
fed to checkgroups .  Thanks!
-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
America Online: lvirden@aol.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfritz@ptolemy1.rdrc.rpi.edu (Joe Fritz)
Subject: Re: Impropriety in soc.culture.tamil vote (Re: soc.culture.tamil
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: news
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:16:10 GMT

What probably happed on this vote was that the usually apathetic
net.citizens were involved in a vote that they probablly no clue as to
what they were voting on.  I'm sure that that many people who never
posted a thing before in their lives, or even knew that USENET is cast
their ballots for s.c.t.  Probablly friends told friends to send an
e-main message to the vote-taker, and the message was sent, quite
probablly without the person knowing what he or she was doing besides
a favor for a friend.

While it may be inappropiate for people who are not involved in the
net to vote or a newsgroup creation, there is nothing specificly
against the letter of the rules.  Maybe there should be.  




-- 
May God keep and bless you always   | jochen (joe) fritz
And may all your dreams come true   | jfritz@rdrc.rpi.edu   <><
May you always do for others        -----------------------------
And let others do for you.  -- "forever young"  --Dylan
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson)
Subject: Re: changing a newsgroup's moderator (was: RFM: rec.arts.erotica)
Organization: WORLDESIGN, Seattle
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 07:19:30 GMT


What about a third party stepping in?

A newsgroup with which I was affiliated was nominally sponsored by
the university lab for which I was working.  Eventually I left the
lab but continued running the newsgroup, which proved to be quite
successful and even integral to the growth of our scientific field.

However, the lab director determined that since I no longer worked
for the lab, the newsgroup was passing out "of control" of the lab.
A new moderator, without experience and with only limited time to
manage the newsgroup, was installed.  The future of the newsgroup
remains uncertain.

It might have been possible to challenge the lab director on this
point except for the fact that the lab was paying the very modest
cost of running the newsgroup, which I gladly would have paid just
to keep things intact.  But it's unlikely the university would 
have taken my side against that of a tenured professor.

So what happens in that case, when there is a de facto coup d'etat
that affects a large community of readers but which in fact takes
place within a very small circle of players, outside of public view?

In my case, my co-moderator and I were given space on another
institution's computer, but this will entail a lot of moving stuff
around and may eventually fracture the audience of readers, just
when our field is gaining coherence.  Personally, I think this is
something that should be taken into account by administrators and
all readers.

It's one of the sad byproducts of USENET's nondirected form of
activity that local politics, like the Bosnia-Serbia war, take
their toll and there is no one in a position to do anything about it.

Bob Jacobson
From: langer@aero.org (John V. Langer)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.graphics.gnuplot
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:47:59 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

In article <23387@oasys.dt.navy.mil> hendrix@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Dane Hendrix) writes:
>While I use gnuplot and would enjoy more contact with other developers
>and users, I haven't seen much traffic on the mailing list that this 
>group would augment/replace. 

I suggest you talk to your administrator, as there might be something 
wrong with your mail software.  I get 5 to 10 articles per day.

> Is there a newsgroup where gnuplot is currently being discussed?

Every once in a while there's something in comp.graphics, but this is
very rare.  Before I finally figured out how to get on the list, I was
a regular comp.graphics reader, wading through tons of notes on bitmaps
and ray-tracing, looking for the occaisional reference to Gnuplot.  The
problem was (1) because there was no USENET visibility for this software,
it took me an unusually long time to find it and (2) once I found it, it
was hard to find other users since they were off on this mailing list
and not in any news group.  

I think the Gnuplot is 90% of the tool that many folks in the scientific
and educational communities are looking for, and that if it were given
the visibility of it's own news group it's usage would increase dramatically.

                         -- John Langer


-- 
===============================================================================
| langer@aerospace.aero.org  |  jvl@mickey.aero.org  |  langer@130.221.192.10 |
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Subject: Re: Rec.arts.erotica Moderation -- Answer (sort of)
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Aug10.123529.5404@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	<1992Aug12.232331.24643@amhux2.amherst.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:15:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.232331.24643@amhux2.amherst.edu> twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

   Evan asked me if I would like to take over a few weeks ago, and I said
   I'd be happy to if I could get a few things straightened out.

   I've gotten them straightened out, and wrote to him saying that I will
   be able to take over if he wants to step down.

Thanks, Tim.  But since we've had a lot of discussion about changing
the Guidelines, I think we ought to proceed with the process, so we
don't waste more bandwidth next time the issue comes up.  So...

Whoever said they'd formalize Jonathan's suggestions and present them
for discussion, please continue to do so.

Meanwhile, since this is the way moderator changes have happened in
the past (under no rules), we have precedent for this change to occur
with no voting or anything.  However, if Gene Spafford (keeper of
moderator list?) has problems with it, I'm sure he'll let you know.

   So shut up already.  When a change takes place, you'll hear about it.

I don't think we ought to shut up.  This problem will come up again
(hopefully not soon or with r.a.e), and needs to be dealt with in a
manner to satisfy the net, as supported by newsadmins, as implemented
by the keepers of the `official' lists (Dave and Gene).  Perhaps there
needs to be a mention of this mechanism for changing moderators, that
it does not need a vote, but that the process can be initiated if
someone wants to protest the change.

   -- 
   ____ Tim Pierce                / "Bisexual just means you pay for it."
   \  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  
    \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Rock Hudson
--
J Lee Jaap <jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov> +1 804/864-2148
employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681
From: rsnyder@atl.ge.com (Bob Snyder)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: changing a newsgroup's moderator
Date: 11 Aug 92 16:24:26 GMT
Organization: GE Aerospace, Advanced Technology Labs

In article <1992Aug9.173955.22791@athena.mit.edu> jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) writes:

>I won't even accept as valid the assertion that the current guidelines are
>applicable in the case of rec.arts.erotica, because it is not at all obvious
>to me that there is enough dissatisfaction to require a replacement of the
>rec.arts.erotica moderator, and your opinion (and even the opinion of four or
>five people in addition to yourself) that there is enough dissatisfaction is
>not enough to prove it.

This has come up several times before, and I believe this is why
alt.sex.stories got started, since rec.arts.erotica had no articles for months
at a time.

>2) MODERATORS MUST NOT BE BOTHERED EVERY TIME SOME BOZO GETS IT INTO HIS SMALL
>MIND TO REPLACE THEM.  It is not adequate to say, "Well, we can use the
>current guidelines to replace moderators, since we can just mail them a copy
>of the RFD and call upon them to defend themselves."  That is not adequate
>because that would allow any individual to easily harass a moderator and make
>his life difficult, simply by posting an RFD.

I agree that since moderators are volunteer, they do deserve respect and
courtesy.  But I really think the RFD process might work.  Someone submitting
a RFD to remove a moderator would have to present valid reasons, or be
flamed off the net.  

Bob
-- 
Bob Snyder, Computing Services, GE Aerospace, Advanced Technology Labs
rsnyder@atl.ge.com, (609) 866-6672, FAX: (609) 866-6397, DialComm 8*777-6672
From: junio@bi.twinsun.com (Jun Hamano)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.aviation?
Date: 21 Aug 1992 00:11:24 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Does anybody know what happened to the proposed rec.aviation
splitting?

Jun Hamano
From: zaphod@bluemoon.rn.com (Peter Bierman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: This might be an FAQ, but....
Date: 12 Aug 92 04:54:46 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

Can anyone suggest the creation of a new newsgroup? How hard is it? I'm 
interested in a possible "comp.sys.mac.bbs.sysop", for Mac BBS SysOps.


---
The opinions I express are rarely my own, because my own are far too
outragous to post here.

IntNet:zaphod@bluemoon.rn.com    FutureNet: #33@#10
The Metropolis (614)-846-1911
---
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.config,alt.folklore.computers
From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: comp.society.folklore - another problematic moderated group
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:19:07 GMT


Since the newsgroup comp.society.folklore was created in the spring of
1991, exactly *one* article in it has reached my site.  That was when
it was brand new, and I believe the article was the (cross-posted)
creation announcement.  I do not believe this can indicate a local problem;
among other reasons, our inward news feed path was rearranged a couple
of months ago.

The group's moderator is Eric Raymond, and I'm emailing him a copy of
this posting.  We are on friendly terms (which I would like to remain
so), and have exchanged email from time to time on other topics over the
past few months, so I know he's still connected.  However, friendly nudges
about comp.society.folklore have not produced any action that I've seen.

Eric told me that he did post other articles to the newsgroup when it was
new, so there must have been a propagation problem back then.  If articles
are still going into the group and not reaching here, then there is still
a propagation problem -- in that case, please email me and we'll move this
thread to news.config to pin it down.

If no articles are going into the group, then either Eric isn't approving
any, or else nobody (including Eric) is submitting any.  If Eric isn't
approving them, then we have a moderator problem -- and that would
really surprise me.

The remaining case is that nobody is posting anything to the newsgroup.
Frankly, this is what I believe is happening.  In fact, I predicted it;
during the creation debate I asserted that having a moderated group in
parallel with an unmoderated one just doesn't work.  In this case the
unmoderated group is ALT.folklore.computers rather than a true Usenet,
but the effect is the same.

I have felt for a long time that alt.folklore.computers should be moved
into Usenet as is.  The name comp.society.folklore would have been a
reasonable choice for it, but it was preempted by the moderated group.

If it is in fact the case that nobody is submitting articles to comp.-
society.folklore, then I would like to propose that it be demoderated
and become a replacement for alt.folklore.computers; or as a second
choice, that it be removed outright.  As I have not yet posted to news.-
announce.newsgroups, these proposals should be considered preliminary.

These topics should be discussed in news.groups, and followups to this
article are directed there by default.
-- 
Mark Brader		On our campus the UNIX system has proved to be not
SoftQuad Inc.		only an effective software tool, but an agent of
Toronto			technical and social change within the University.
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com					John Lions

This article is in the public domain.
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Thursday, 13 Aug 1992 00:12:51 MST
From: <AZSEG@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.maghreb

The volume of postings in soc.culture.arabic is pretty low so
I think the proposal for Maghreb is premature.

Selim Guncer