HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:38:00 EST
From:         MLB14@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Standard English

Russ, I am intrigued about your notions of having the authors know something
about their topics that their audience doesn't know--and you creating those
opportunities by avoiding common texts and assignments.

My first thought is, "That'd never fly here." I am currently embroiled in an
effort to create a "common" syllabus for all sections of freshman
writing--the administration at my school is concerned that all sections of
our writing classes have roughly equivalent experiences and assignments.
While I am resisting the push to make the sections identical, I can see the
administration's point: there needs to be some assurance that an "A" in one
section means the same thing as an "A" in the next.

Of course, such a statement is riddled with assumptions that I don't really
buy--that grades are a meaningful measure of ability, for one--but that I
must live with.  How is it possible to maintain a situation where students
write for real audiences and purposes and still maintain a fairly homogenous
writing curriculum?  Any ideas?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:58:55 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      What is Hypertext?

The mention of Rebecca Gold's Hypercard at this season suggested to me that
what I need is a Gold Hypercard--many layers of credit connected in non-linear
ways, especially non-phone linear to the credit bureau. What I actually have
is a hyper gold card.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:23:38 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: But what can we isolated YouEssers do?
              (3)

RonRon
Yes, I was technically inaccurate in using the country's name when referring to
the people.  My ref to Germany was related to whomever cited Germany and Japan
as 2 other world economic powers and said that they were successfully monolingua
   l (sorry--I never watch who I'm etalking to!).  I've taught courses to German
EFL students and found them astonishingly proficient in English; this is true
of some other N European cuntries, who are not world economic powers.  Can you
say more about why "any discussion about the viability of regional dialects woul
   d be laughed to scorn"?
Liz Hamp_Lyons
English/Applied Language
University of Colorado, Denver
LHAMPLYONS@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:54:00 CDT
From:         Amanda Corcoran <YKFAC@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Dyslexia and Writing

Irvin
My partner Tom Benson put in the grant, but I'll get a copy for
you. Can I have your snail mail address?

Amanda Inskip Corcoran--Texas Tech
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: <mbm@pacscl.uarc.upenn.edu>
Posted-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:06:26 EST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:06:26 EST
From:         "(MM)" <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      software

	This may have been covered more than once, but I need some information
concerning software that might be availabe for Gateway (IBM clone) com-
puters. Gateway 2000? Part of the problem is that I am new to this and might
need to learn it quickly. If a learning lab wanted to install software for
computer-assisted reading and writing instruction, what kinds of programs are
available? What do they teach? How difficult are they to learn? To teach?
If anyone has the information, time, and willingness to respond, please vax
me personally at mbm@pacscl.uarc.upenn.edu
unless for some reason you feel that someone else might benefit. I would prefer
not to fill people's mailboxes with messages they don't need.
	Finally, attn. Jim Porter, I have lost your email address.

Thank-you,
Michael McColl
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:07:48 CST
From:         RE811EN <RE811EN@TCUAMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Rhetoric and/of Technical Writing

Dear MBUsers:

A collegue of mine has asked me to inquire if any of you
are familiar with Technical Writing and the applications of
Rhetoric to the field.  Her definition of Technical Writing
include professional writing, or writing in non academic
settings.  She is trying to figure out how Rhetoric is
connected and was hoping for some hints on directions she could
take.

She is also interested in books that point to some connection
between Tech Writing and Rhetoric.  Any help, comments and
suggestions will be valuable.

Please mail direct to:

Sue Hum
Texas Christian University
RE811EN@TCUAMUS.Bitnet
line
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: University at Buffalo
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: ENGMYLES
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 18:47:13 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: pourquoi

credo.
Myles
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:11:00 EST
From:         MLB14@PSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) So much CS, so little time (*COMP. COMP*) (5)

Joe,

Rather than suggesting that tech writers know more programming, it sounds
like the programmers of the software you were using need to know more
grammar.  If the sentence in question read, "Experiments to test the
feasibility of . . .are being considered", then the subject of the sentence
is "experiments", which means that "are" was the correct form of the
auxiliary verb.  Why on earth did the program think the subject was
"feasibility"?  If that's what the program thought, then what algorith is it
using?  Is it looking for the closest noun?  THAT is a scary thought--think
of how formulaic language would be if nouns and verbs had to be so close.  .
.


Marcy Bauman Penn State-Erie
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:01:11 AST
Comments:     <17DEC92.09747270.0065.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: Second Language Labs

     I should have waited to post my last message about participating
in communities until I'd read what David Schwalm has to say:
> The trouble is, Raul, that having the opportunity to use a second language is
> not the same as having the need to do so. Our students have the opportunity to
> write every day, but seldom the need to write.
     I agree with this fervently, but I want to be very careful about
"need."  I live in an officially bilingual province, and there is
plenty of EXTERNAL need to learn French (government jobs is the main
motivator), but in fact it's not very effective.  There's a profound
difference, it seems to me, between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation,
especially in language learning.  I learn a language to participate in
community, to define my identity in social context, to conduct
transactions with others.  It's very different to learn it because I've
been convinced I can't get a job, or graduate, without it.  David says:
>                Language learning is hard and frustrating, and most people will
> not do it unless they have to, unless their lives or livelihoods depend on it.
     I'd say "lives"; I'm not so convinced about livelihoods.
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3_uno PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:33:34 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: standard english

I expect that quite a few of us found many portions of Hirsh's
writing to be reasonable (as Bob C. found with Philosophy).  He
seems to be making essentailly the same grapholect point in
Cutural literacy, only facts, phrases, and texts have become
his graphemes.  In Cultural literacy, his assumptions seem
sound; the reasoning and application that follows are, however,
wildly problematic--there is a cannon of knowledge that all
students should learn; kids enjoy rote learning, etc.  Does he
make the same kind of argument in Philosophy when he makes
the oralect/grapholect distinction?
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU"
X-VMS-Cc: LHAMPLYONS
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:13:28 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: Second Language Labs

Yes, Raul!  As I said--one has to WANT to!!
Liz Hamp-Lyons
English/Applied Language
University of Colorado, Denver
LHAMPLYONS@cudnvr.denver.colorado.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:43:37 AST
Comments:     <15DEC92.08368839.0038.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

Raul Huerta said:
> >                                            I think that it is very
> > important that these "new" students be given the tools -- that is
> > to say thinking, speaking and writing skills.
     and Irv Peckham responded:
>                                                         I suspect
> that it might be as useful to learn other dialects as other
> languages.
      In important ways, it seems to me other dialects ARE other
languages; but we can't "give" people other languages, or other
dialects -- like "standard English."  We have to arrange circumstances
in which they can invent them for themselves.  But it seems to me
what we really want for our students is that they learn how to
learn new dialects.  As with languages, one consequence of learning
a second is that it becomes easier to learn a third . . .
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3_uno PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:05:28 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

> a half-day's drive away . . . but we've got communities of people
> speaking cognitive psychology or biophysics or metallurgical
> engineering or literary theory right there in the library, and
> maybe right down the hall.
>                                     -- Russ
And farmtalk, huntin' talk, and jive right down the street.
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: <smh@aal.itd.umich.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:47:41 EST
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      standard english/grapholects/stability

Gordon,
I especially appreciated the closing portion of your recent posting which
spoke eloquently about the value of community.  I have learned much from
this thread on standard English, and while I'm not sure I agree with
Bob's reply  on Standard English essentially having stabilized itself in
books around 1700, I don't want to engage in what could seem like a
nitpicky exchange over it; besides, I'm still thinking about the language
features which have changed and the implications of those changes.

Perhaps my last posting wasn't clear, as I did not meant to make value
judgements about Bob C.'s views of dialects (and Gordon is right, my
parenthetical remark attempted to show that).  My posting was a direct
reply to Bob's post, but it was also a reply to many essays I've
read about language, many conversations I've had with people about
language, many news reports I've seen about literacy.  So when I said
that there are insidious ideas beneath the discussion, I did not mean
to accuse Bob of harboring these ideas.  Rather, I meant to highlight
the urgency of this issue.  Especially because we teach rhetoric as
well as language, I *am* wary of the assumption that standard English
as it needs to be written in school is a stable grapholect that one
can be taught in, say, high school, and then one can use it wherever
one travels in further study.  Bob is right, no one would say that
someone writing in RTE is writing a different language than someone
writing in College English, but writers need to learn the rhetorical
differences there too.Especially given the hostility toward immigrants in
the U.S., the rise of the English-only movement, and the continued
pressure to get "back to the basics" in school, I am worried (although
not so eloquently as Bill C.).

I may have moved too quickly from the particular discussion of Bob's
posting to more general concerns about broader issues.  He never said
that the grapholect is better than other dialects.  I want to raise
the question, though, of whether the presentation of the standard might
have the gatekeeping effects which I don't want to be part of.  And
that question is something I face every time I grade a paper or have
a conference with a student.  Language standards exist because they're
supported and promulgated by discourse communities, and I assume that
most of us (all, maybe?) would agree that we ought carefully examine
how we talk to our students about language.

Thanks for a careful reading of my message, Gordon.

Susanmarie Harrington
University of Michigan
English Composition Board
1025 Angell Hall
Ann Arbor MI 48019-1003
smh@aal.itd.umich.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:39:40 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      LD the same as nonstandard usage?

Nancy,
I don't want to oversimplify the situation, and equating learning
disabled students with those who use dialects other than SWE would
do that.  I AM suggesting that the motive (intolerance for difference),
the means (labeling them as "outsiders"), and the measure (SWE)
are the same.  And I'm suggesting that much of the evil we and our
forebears do/have done stems from the same set of motives and means,
at least, and maybe the same measure.

I don't have a solution, since I can't separate the dancer from the
dance any better than anyone else can.  But when we test, grade papers,
etc, we are not testing solely for knowledge or ability; we are also
testing for a rather narrowly prescribed performance.  What matters,
we say, is not what the student knows or what the student can do, but
what gets put onto paper in SWE.

Over the past decade and a half, I've met literally hundreds of students
who will NEVER measure up in SWE, whether because of dyslexia or
because of some other learning disorder that wouldn't necessarily show
up in their written work (at least not obviously) or because of their
cultural/linguistic backgrounds.  These students have had more dedication
to learning that you or I will ever have--they had to, to get as far as
they have.  But they'll never SHOW what you and I can show.

I don't want to be a gatekeeper, a functionary of an elitist society whose
job is to say who belongs and who doesn't.  I'd like to find ways to
make our measures of learning more inclusive, and I think that we as
a profession (and I mean all college teachers now) must find such ways,
or in our increasingly diverse society, we'll become irrelevant.

Bill Condon
English Composition Board
1025 Angell Hall
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
userlcbk@umichum.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3_uno PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:37:34 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English

>
> Irv says:
> > And farmtalk, huntin' talk, and jive right down the street.

From Russ:
>      The people in my classes are already fluent in the first
> two, and they ain't no jive down OUR street.
>      What bothers me is that they COULD be immersed in other
> dialects they don't know, but aren't.  You'd think, living in
> residence and going to university, they'd be immersed in
> academic written English, but they aren't -- even when they're
--
Russ:  I was of course suggesting that we learn to speak their
language (languages some of us have forgotten in our border
crossing); but your concern leads to the question of why
"they don't."  I would not locate the fault in them; nor would
I locate it in us.  So where to we go?  I (as I am sure you do)
have some ideas.
Irv

Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: <detke@cattell.psych.upenn.edu>
Posted-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:09:40 EST
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL10]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:09:40 EST
From:         Michael Detke <detke@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      add to MD-PhD list, please

        Please add the following person to the list:  baker@a1.mscf.upenn.edu

        Thanks.
--
                                                -Mike
                                                (detke@cattell.psych.upenn.edu)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"mdphd-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu"
X-VMS-Cc: HO
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:04:41 -0400
From:         HO@BIOMED.MED.YALE.EDU
Subject:      Re: specialties

        Hi, I finished at SUNY Buffalo last year and am now in the Yale
Primary Care Internal Medicine Program.  After finishing three years here,
I'm planning on heading into Rheumatology for eventual research and
clinical work as has been described in a couple of the recent posts to the
list.  Another grad of the SUNY Buffalo program the year before me headed
into Neurosurgery at Northwestern, also intending to do research (at least
when he started).
        I had considered a "fast-track" type of program here (2 years
clinical + 2 years research then 2 more years of fellowship thus getting
more research time into the normal 6 year track), but felt more and more as
I got in to the internship year that this really was my best opportunity to
see all the clinical training. So at present I am opting to finish out 3
years  in medicine then to go on for fellowship.
        My PhD research was related to immunology but not directly to
rheumatology so that may weaken any desires I may have had to
continue on with pursuing my research.  I feel I will need to start almost
anew when I get to that point.

        Richard Ho
        PGY I/Yale Primary Care Program
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mdphd-l
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:30:35 -0600
From:         nollet%gauss.dnet@FERMAT.MAYO.EDU
Subject:      RE: What medical specialty are you considering?

I am 8/8, biochemistry, graduating in May, 1993.
My specialty of choice is pathology.  Some of my reasons are:
(1) A substantial part of pathology is laboratory oriented.  My PhD training
    was instrument intensive (NMR, CD, and fluorescence spectroscopies),
    and I believe this background will serve me well in the clinical
    pathology portion of the combined anatomic path/clinical path (AP/CP)
    residency.  One of my interests is perhaps better referred to as
    technological rather than purely scientific: I am intrigued by the
    possibilities of (A) making existing diagnostic tests more cost-
    efficient, and (B) "pushing the envelope" with respect to detection
    limits (e.g. lowering sample size requirements, quantifying lower
    concentrations...).
(2) Studying the whole spectrum of human disease provides impetus and
    direction for scientific investigations.
(3) Although I was not involved in imaging spectroscopies per se, there
    are a great many possibilites in anatomic pathology to pursue
    image analysis techniques for screening or diagnostic purposes.
(4) Pathology is already a medical specialty which actively involves
    both MDs and PhDs.
(5) For people interested in patient contact, some programs involve the
    pathologist in biopsy acquisition (e.g. fine needle aspiration),
    and I think by showing a little initiative a pathology resident
    could find her/his way into other patient contact opportunities,
    sans 30 hour call marathons.

Note that Anatomic Path (AP) and Clinical Path (CP) can be pursued
separately.  Either program is three years plus a year of fellowship
or clinical work.  The combined AP/CP is a four year residency, plus
the extra year of fellowship or clinical work.  THE GOOD NEWS FOR
MD/PHD graduates is that we can petition the boarding agency for
our PHD research to be credited toward the extra year.  I am also
told that people with relevant MS degrees can get partial credit for
that year also.

I hope this is of interest and/or encouragement to some of you.  Looking
forward to more discussion on specialty choices....

Ken Nollet, K0EN
Mayo Medical School/Mayo Graduate School
NOLLET@MAYO.EDU
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU