HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mideur-l
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:17:03 EST
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Czech Republic wants a successful and

 After only a week of being away from this list, I now read with great interest
 the various post-mortems on the Czech-Slovak split. Why is it so diffiuclt to
understand that this development was indeed unavoidable after the 1992
elections? Consider: Merciar's party had the proclamations of Slovak
sovereignty (somewhat mysteriously claimed to be different from "independence")
and of a separate Slovak constitution as part of its election program. When
 Meciar won, he delivered with speed what he had promised (no Clinton he!).

So what else could have followed? Perhaps a VERY loose confederation (difficult
to define in detail) with two equal and "sovereign" partners: in practice, that
 would have meant that each Slovak's vote would count for two Czech votes,
 given the population ratio. Why in heavens would the Czechs want to have an
arrangement like that? It was certainly  not in their national interest.
What was the democratic principle "One man, one vote" to be sacrificed for?

   And so the separation had to happened. As Ronald Reagan, among others, used
to say, "It takes two to tango." Since the tangoes were so very different,
further dancing proved impossible.

As to the referendum: The Federal parliament, way back, passed a referendum law
but could NEVER agree (or even come close to agreement) on the wording of the
question. The reasons are clear: the concepts of Czechs and Slovaks of what a
common state should look like were vastly different. In that Mr. Frajkor is
for once correct.

  Finally, I don't think that we should insult those Slovaks who voted for
Meciar's party by claiming that they did not know what they were voting for.
If they could read, or just listen to TV and radio, they surely did know.

Sincerely, Henry Kucera, Brown University
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:04:42 EST
From:         George Frajkor <gfrajkor@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject:      Re: The Czech Republic wants a successful and independent
              BAUER" at Jan 21, 93 5:17 pm

GEORGE BAUER writes:
>
> If the people of both the Czech Republic and Slovakia want a common state,
> who or why is it determined that a common state is not viable?  What
> makes it not viable?  Why is it not viable?  Who says it is not viable?
>
> I have the feeling that there is a hidden message:
> it is the POLITICIANS who decide, in spite of the wishes of the people.

      did my posting on reconciliablty not make the lists at all? Do I
have to repeat it??   It showed quite clearly that the PEOPLE (not the
politicians) of the Czech Republic want ONLY a unitary state and/or a
single federal state, which is what THEY think is a common state.  It
showed quite clearly that the PEOPLE of Slovakia want ONLY a
Confederation of two equal states, a federation of two equal
republics or a federal government formed by a state treaty signed
between two equal republics.  PLEASE read the posting and the figures.
    If this still baffles you, consider the following:
   Man says: I love you, I want to marry you.
And we will live happily
ever after  by following the God-given order of man deciding all the
important affairs while woman changes the diapers.
    Woman says: I love you, I want to marry you.
And  we will live
happily ever after in a partnership where each of us shares the
burdens and the responsibilities.
         Czechs are still quoting the first lines of these dialogues.
And wondering how come there was a divorce.

   As for politicians ignoring the wishes of the peoplem, you will
have to explain why the people elected them when both party platforms
were abundantly clear and abundantly discussed.
      If you really believe that Meciar sneaked in without revealing
he was for independence, you haven't been reading the Czech newspapers
where both Carnogursky and Meciar have been exposed as separatists
since 1990  -- and the Czech papers must of course be relied on.

    Jan George Frajkor       _!_
 School of Journalism       __!__
 Carleton University,         |
 Ottawa, Ontario             /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6           /^\   /^\
   -- gfrajkor@ccs.carleton.ca --
  613 788-7404     fax:613 788-5604
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:45:11 EDT
From:         Hugh <AGNEWHL@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jorg Haide and universities
              25 Jan 1993 21:36:44 -0600 from <THEMIL@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>

THe most recent edition (I think it was most recent, it's the one currently
on the bedside table) of _The Economist_ has a lengthy article on Joerg
Haider and his right wing Freedom Party.  (I just found it, it's not MOST
recent, it's Jan. 16 1993.  They also mention another side, an organization
called SOS-Mitmensch, which is working against it.  Basically, they say if
he doesn't get more support than the 750,000 who voted for his party last
election, the whole thing will seem a fiasco.

Sorry I don't know more details.

Hugh Agnew
AGNEWHL@GWUVM.BITNET
From: mh@cwi.nl (M. Haindl)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mideur-l
Subject: Czechoslovakia
Summary: Arguments needed !!
Keywords: suffering
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:45:09 GMT

Reading George Frajkor's mails about Slovak suffering I was expecting to
see finally some arguments. Suggestions ?

1. Comparison of 1918 and 1992 statistics in:
    education (no. of universities, secondary and basic schools, percentage 
       of illiteracy, percentage of people with university education) , 
    culture (no. of theatres, orchestras, museums, exhibition halls, printed books...)
    living standard ( Czech-Slovak difference, life expectancy, health care,
       accommodation, cars, vacation houses ...)
    legislative suppression, science, industrial and agricultural output, export, number 
    of inhabitants with Slovak nationality etc.
    If your arithmetic calculus finds any positive changes the natural question
    remains - what were the resources (Saint Claus ? Slovaks? Czechs?).

2.  How to explain bad federal Slovak experiences (..."Czechs acting in their own 
    interests"...), when the whole Czechoslovak federal era (1968-1989) was
    in the following Slovak hands (not everybody 21 years exactly):
    first secretary of Czechoslovak communist party and president of country Husak
    secretary for ideology of CCP Bilak
    defence minister Dzur, foreign affairs minister Chnoupek, foreign trade
    minister Barcak, vice-premier ... ?
    An example ? Famous problem with Gabcikovo Nagymaros dam, first proposed
    by Slovak politicians in 1964 - rejected by the CCP leader A.Novotny (Czech)
    later in federal era the second proposal approved by G.Husak (Slovak).

3.  "looking at those figures posted"
    Why democratic states bother with expensive elections and referendum, when all 
    important questions can be solved by random poll of 300-500 people.
  
4.  Second world war suffering of both nations, communist era suffering
    (no of political prisoners, executed, kicked out of employment, forced
     to emigrate ...).

Or just anything else but preferably data and facts !

           M.Haindl - The Netherlands
    


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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 14:13:02 EST
From:         henry krisch <HENRYK@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Sovereignty & independence

Many of the one-time Soviet republics claimed "sovereignty" rather than
"independence." What did it mean? It was, first, an announcement of local
control over natural resources, secondly, a negotiating ploy, and finally,
a holding action until local leaders could see what was going on in rest of
USSR, and what local popular pressure might be. Result: the CIS, which
presumably is what CS-FR would have looked like if Meciar's program would
have been adopted by Czechs.
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From: benes@itk.unit.no (Mila Benes)
Subject: Re:      The Czechs wish an independent and successful Slovak Republic
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology / SINTEF, Trondheim, Norway
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 08:21:01 GMT

In article <199301201555.AA10450@noc.BelWue.DE>,         s565havra@IKEVAX.ENERGIETECHNIK.UNI-STUTTGART.DE writes
 
|> Now I think it's a good opportunity to ask the question once again: What is
|> the difference between the "independence" (a positive word ! ) and
|> the "separation" ( a negative word)? Recalling what recently happened the
|> "independence" meant to the majority of the Slovaks two idependent
|> monetary systems, armies and foreign policies. If this is a positive
|> "independence", what is the negative "separation" then?
|> 
|> Regards,
|> 
|> M. Havranek, Stuttgart, FRG

I can imagine, that it is much easier to get people to vote for "independence" than for "separation", "destruction", or "break-up".
And besides, not many politicians call a spade for a spade.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:36:24 EST
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Havel elected, Kovac not

  From the news wires about 5 pm EST: Vaclav Havel got 109 votes in the Czech
parlimant (200 members) and was elected Czech President for a term of 5 years.
 He will be inaugurated next Tuesday, Feb. 2. Roman Kovac got only 59 votes in
the Slovak parliament (150 members) which was short of the required 3/5
majority (90 votes required). A run-off between two leading candidates will be
held next week.

   Regards, H.K.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:25:54 -0600
From:         THEMIL@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Jorg Haide and universities

I wish to thank all that replied to my message on Jorg Haide.  I have had
a nominal interest in following his career. I am reading "Austria - Fin de
Siecle" now and it is interesting to view contemporary events with the past.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:18:52 EST
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Czechoslovakia

>Posted on 25 Jan 1993 at 14:42:33 by George Frajkor

(Some stuff deleted)

>  But the period in which Slovakia made the greatest economic
>gains on an annual basis was 1939-1944.  During this period more
>industries were established,. more power generated and more roads
>and railways built than in the 21 previous years.

>    Jan George Frajkor       _!_

  What a real big war can do for you (even if you are on the wrong side)!

Regards, H.K.

P.S. During the same period, the Czechs couldn't even go to universities.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:26:20 EST
From:         George Frajkor <gfrajkor@CCS.CARLETON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Nice, nice,
              very nice - to be in the same device! Kurt Vonnegut
              "s565havra@IKEVAX.ENERGIETECHNIK.UNI-STUTTGART.DE" at Jan 21,
              93 12:24 pm

s565havra@IKEVAX.ENERGIETECHNIK.UNI-STUTTGART.DE writes:
>
> What is the 'Slovak conception of a common state'? I have never heared about
> a detailed sytematical formulation of a programme available to anybody and
> backed by a reasonable part of the Slovaks. The Czech people would
have appreciated to understand in detail what the Slovaks were going for rather
> than what the Czechs didn't want. Can you really refuse something you don't
> know anything about? Now it doesn't matter anymore, of course.

       Do I have to repost those poll results again, for the umpteenth
time?  It would seeem clear from them that the Slovak conception
supported by the majority of Slovaks is either a Confederation of two
equal states, or a federation in which Slovaks are equal partners, or
a federation arrived at by treaty between two equal republics.  What
exactly do you find unclear about it?  It is obvious this is clear to
the Czechs, since according to the polls they refused to accept it.

>Instead, I remember just isolated ideas like: Chinese model, the
capital city
>should periodically move from Prague to Bratislava and back,separate
 currency> systems, armies, foreign policy and other ideas.

       Both the VPN government under Meciar and Carnogursky, and then
the HZDS government under Meciar, spent a great deal of time
negotiating the so-called "competency" laws (jurisdiction is what we
would call it ) during which they went into great detail about what
each state wanted.  It is there that it became clear neither state
could accept what the other wanted. The discussion on the jurisdiction
laws was neither unclear nor secret, as one of the reasons
Carnogursky's government fell is that he was considered to have given
away too much.  I can only refer you to the newspapers of the time if
you want to know the details.

    Jan George Frajkor       _!_
 School of Journalism       __!__
 Carleton University,         |
 Ottawa, Ontario             /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6           /^\   /^\
   -- gfrajkor@ccs.carleton.ca --
  613 788-7404     fax:613 788-5604
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:26:28 +0100
From:         Michael_Mnuk@RISC.UNI-LINZ.AC.AT
Subject:      Re: Jorg Haide and universities
              25 Jan 93 21:36:44 -0600.
              <199301260440.AA03200@admin.risc.uni-linz.ac.at>

>>>>> THEMIL@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

CM> Does anyone subscribing in Austria, Germany, or elsewhere know anything
CM> more about what I heard on Deutsche Welle? At 0300GMT 26Jan, they reported
CM> that Jorg Haide was seeking public signatures in favor of a referendum
CM> on restricting immigration. They also said that he would like to see the
CM> percentage of foreigners in Austrian universities lowered to 30%.

CM> -Clay Miller at the University of Kansas.

The most important requirements of Haider are:

- constitutional amendment saying: Austria is NOT an immigration country
- stopping immigration until basic problems are solved (housing,
unemployment, etc.)
- establishing special border troops
- restricting the percentage of pupils whose first language is not German
to 30%; this should not apply to universities
- introducing special ID cards for foreign employees
- enlarging the executive to cease (foreigners') criminal activities

Michal Mnuk
Research Institute for Symbolic Computation
A-4040 Linz, Austria
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:33:12 CDT
From:         "Richard J. Pugh, SUNY Albany" <RP0358@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Other Internet Bibliographies

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
TO: Pacs-L
FR: Richard Pugh
RE: Bibliographies

Hi folks.  Does anyone out there know if there is a comprehensive bibliography
on Internet and/or NREN resources?  I'm referring to works on or about the net
as opposed to what is available through it.  I have seen small bibliographies
posted here, and I have pulled some in through FTP, but some of you may know
of ones that I have missed.  If any of you know of a comprehensive bibliography,
or as comprehensive as is currently availble, please send me a personal message.

Thanks.

Richard J. Pugh
State University of New York at Albany
School of Information Science and Policy
rp0358@albnyvms.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:04:34 CDT
From:         Laine Farley 510/987-0552 <lxf@stubbs.ucop.edu>
Subject:      Human Machine Interface IG at ALA

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>         DESIGNING USER INTERFACES FOR SPECIAL POPULATIONS
>
>         A discussion at ALA Midwinter, Denver sponsored by
>            LITA Human Machine Interface Interest Group
>
>                   Saturday, January 23, 2-4 p.m.
>                  Warwick Hotel, room Thornton IV
>
>The Human Machine Interface Interest Group plans to continue its
>tradition of holding a guided discussion at the Midwinter meeting.
>The topic will be on designing user interfaces for special
>populations.  Terry Noreault from OCLC who was involved in the
>design of the graphical user interface for The Online Journal of
>Current Clinical Trials, will lead a discussion of the issues
>encountered in this project.
>
>Tom Doerr, Paula Busey, and Pam Sandlian from the Denver Public
>Library and John Duane from CARL Systems are collaborating on
>the design of an interface to CARL for children called the Kid's
>Catalog.  These experts will lead the group in exploring analysis
>and design approaches that accommodate the needs of their respective
>audiences and diverse databases.  The comparisons and contrasts
>of these two very different projects should be enlightening.
>
>The business meeting will include the election of a new vice-chair/
>chair elect for the remainder of '93 (to become chair during
>'93-'94).  If you are interested in this position, please notify
>the chair in advance, or come to the meeting prepared to make
>a brief statement of interest.
>
>We would also like to identify a group of volunteers who might like
>to serve as "spark plugs" for the Interest Group.  These people
>would keep in touch, exchange ideas, and help the chair plan future
>activities.  If you know of interesting user interface projects or
>have questions you want to explore, please attend and give us your
>ideas, or contact the chair in advance.
>
>Laine Farley
>Chair, Human Machine Interface Interest Group
>University of California MELVYL System
>300 Lakeside Dr., 8th floor
>Oakland, CA 94612
>lxfol@uccmvsa.bitnet
>lxf@dla.ucop.edu
>(510) 987-0552
>at conference, contact at Radisson Hotel or LITA office
>
>
>
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:42:23 CDT
From:         Linda Piele <pielel@cs.uwp.edu>
Subject:      Re: Library Automation Questions

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
At the University of Wisconsin-Parkside we've had a self-service system
for CD-ROM use for several years. We also have about 20 databases -- but
many fewer students (5,000). The system has worked well for us; we've had
almost no problems. The fact that the reference desk is only a few feet
from the CD-ROM workstations might be a factor, however.

Linda Piele
University of Wisconsin-Parkside
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:08:26 CDT
From:         Rick Gates <lb05gate@UCSBUXA.BITNET>
Subject:      Internet Room

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Just taking a break in the middle of reading my voluminous mail to say


                        THANKS !!!

...to Colorado Supernet and Carl Systems for their sponsorship of the
Internet Room at the midwinter meeting of the American Library
Association in Denver.  Well, back to it.

From Denver,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Gates                              (805) 893-7225
Dir. of Library Automation
Univ. of California Library
Santa Barbara, CA  93106                lb05gate@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:33:31 CDT
From:         Janusz Swieczkowski <SWIECZKO@PLKTUS11.BITNET>
Subject:      directory of european catalogs.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I'm looking for directory of european network reachable library catalogs
( internet, X.25 and other ). I think that it may be interesting to other
pacs-l subscribers too. Where can I get it from ?


 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 # Janusz Swieczkowski                                                     #
 # Silesian University Computer Center, Katowice, Poland #### user support #
 # Bitnet: SWIECZKO@PLKTUS11  #### Internet: janusz@usctoux1.cto.us.edu.pl #
 ===========================================================================
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 11:44:24 CDT
From:         Mel Farrell <AXPBMEF@UICVMC.BITNET>
Subject:      gopher

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

 Hi,
   I was connected to the gopher at BYU this morning, and attempted to connect
 to the University of Illinois library catalog (telnet) from there. The domain
 address posted for U of I's catalog is incorrect and resulted in a 'host
 unknown' message. If anyone out there is interested or if any of you reading
 this has anything to do with the administration of gopherspace at BYU. The
 correct domain address should be:
                    UICMVSA.AISS.UIUC.EDU

 This is a recent change...Thanks

 ***************************************************************
 Mary Ellen Farrell  axpbmef@uicvmc.aiss.uiuc.edu
 Illinois Library Computer Systems Office  PH: (217)244-7593
 502 E. John, Champaign IL 61820          FAX: (217)244-7596
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