From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Sorry about that... ;<
Keywords: sponsor followup
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:32:59 GMT

Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:

>joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) remarks:

>>In article <crystal.703126214@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal) writes:

>>>I can't stand the 12-step religions.
>>
>>A 12 step program is not a religion and if you had any experience in one
>>you would know that. SO don't condem anything that you don't know about!!

>Perhaps crystal does feel as if 12 step programs are "religions". You
>(and I) don't consider them to be religions but that does not make her
>opinion invalid.

religion (ri-lij-en) 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
recognized as the creator and governor of the universe. b. A particular
integrated system of this expression: *the Hindu religion*. 2. The spiritual
or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the existence of a superhuman
power or powers. 3. An objective pursued with zeal or concientious devotion:
*a collector might make a religion out of his hobby*.

Of these, number 3 might apply to the Twelve Steps - but the same would 
apply to golf, or watching Andy Griffth reruns - this is the slang part.

Else, none of these definitions applies. 

- 'does not make her opinion invalid' - we are not talking about opinions,
we are talking about definitions. And thus her definition is invalid. Or
at least, not English (notice distinct lack of smiley face)

If she wishes to speak her own language, that is her buisness. I assume that
she is posting to correspond with those of us who so speak English (notice
return of smiley face 8-) so we all need to use the same words.

to _attempt_ to forstall the things that I would have said when I was an
agnostic - no. Those other definitions don't apply. See:

religion (ri-lij-en) 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power
recognized as the creator and governor of the universe. 
Nope. The Big Book states that belief is not at all required. Merely that
we be 'willing to believe' - that's all we need. To resign from the debating
society.

b. A particular integrated system of this expression: *the Hindu 
religion*. 

Anybody who has read the book at all knows this one doesn't apply.


2. The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the 
existence of a superhuman power or powers.

Hmm - now _this_ one looks like it might fit - wait a minute. The phrase
was 'twelve step religions'. The 12 steps quite often (but not always!)
produce this result in those who follow them, but the steps are the program
(all_ of the program - 'Here are the steps we took which are suggested 
as a program of recovery') and the steps are not an 'attitude', they are,
well, a program!B^)


RETRACTION 8-)
Now, if in someone's opinion the Twelve Steps fit one of these definitions,
then that is an opinion about a definition - but first, read the book! |-(
(8-)


(everybody needs to do a little thumpin' now and then. 8-)

love and service,

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)544-8457

*****!Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!*****