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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:57:04 -0500
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: contraception - a crosspost

Dear Scott and Scott,

  This posting is not a criticizism of your ideas, so please don't take offense
.  I agree that we all want our children to grow up in a comfortable manner; we
 want the best for them.  However, this idea of only having children if they ca
n be comfortably kept comes dangerously close to the "the only good baby is a p
lanned baby" slogan of Planned Parenthood and others.

   Let's face it, no matter what manner of contraception you use, having only p
lanned children is biologically impossible.  My parents were Catholics that tri
ed the rhythm method and artifical ways; it failed on all six of us.   Yes, it
was hard raising six children.  My parents have had to file bankruptcy before,
my father was laid off of a few jobs, but we always had what we needed.  If we
couldn't provide it for ourselves, our family and the community stepped in.

   The new Surgeon General, Dr. Elders, was quoted as saying, "Christians only
love babies when they're in somebody else's uterus."  The number of latchkey ki
ds(kids left unsupervised at home) in America runs in the millions.  How many c
hurches offer after-school programs for these children?  How many churches offe
r nurseries for children of non-church members?  I'm as guilty as anyone of put
ting in my monetary donation and then saying, "Okay, I've done enough. Now leav
e me out of it."

   But that is not what we are called to do.  If people are in need, if single
and divorced mothers and fathers are having a hard time taking care of their ch
ildren, we should be helping.  The army is in Somalia saving "the widows and th
e orphans."  Why do we Christians hesitate to do the same, with similar convict
ion, here in the United States?

   I'm sorry I went on a tirade, but sometimes I feel like there is so little I
 can do and I'm being encouraged by the church to not worry about it.


Marissa Ratcliff             Document Delivery
University of GA             Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:04:23 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      QUESTION ON PRAYER

Dear members,

   I saw a sermon title on a church billboard that has got me wondering.  The t
itle of the sermon is "How to Deal with Unanswered Prayer."  Now, what I'm wond
ering about is this:  Would God deliberately NOT answer a prayer?  I'm not talk
ing about God giving us an answer we didn't expect or didn't want; nor am I tal
king about that nasty habit we have of not listening to God if He doesn't say o
r do exactly what we want Him to.
   I'm talking about God just not answering you.
   I'm talking about God just not answering you.

   Does anyone have any ideas? Any scriptures?   Personally, I believe God answ
ers all prayer, but I could be wrong.  Perhaps a better title for the sermon wo
uld have been , "When God Answers Prayer, But Not the Way YOU Expected?"


Marissa Ratcliff           Document Delivery
University of GA           Science Library
Athens, GA

P.S.  Happy New Year, Everyone!
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:07:24 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Amy Grant

On Jan 7,  7:30pm, "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2" wrote:
} Subject: Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant
} Although Amy Grant thinks and sells herself as being Christian, we know
} according to her fruit, (music, statements made, lifestyle, etc), that she is
} not like Jesus, and that is the test.
}-- End of excerpt from "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2"

Okay, this is the latest straw.  I've really had it with people putting
down Amy Grant.

        A number of points --

        1) Amy is Amy.  She is a Christian.  She is NOT perfect, and
she readily admits this.

        2) 'Heart In Motion' and 'Unguarded' (especially the former)
were basically intended to be pop albums, not gospel albums.  Neverthe-
less, it's quite clear from listening to them where her loyalty is.

        3) A lot of people have come to know more about God due to a
spark set there by Amy's music.

        I'd be really interested in seeing Ian back up the above statement
with some FACTS.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:07:49 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A Hindu View of Amy Grant
              7 Jan 1993 19:30:08 GMT from <iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK>

  I'm afraid I have to disagree with many people's image of Amy Grant as a sell
out and non-Christian.

  I saw an one hour program on a secular music series called something like "Vi
deos."  She talked a great deal about Christ and many of the stage crew that we
re hired to produce her show were interviewed.  When asked how they viewed Amy,
 all of them stated that they were shocked at how kind and friendly she was.  O
ne guy said that on one occasion she was late for a rehearsal.  She blew all of
 them away by apologizing to the entire crew for keeping them late.  (obviously
, this doesn't happen too often)

  They asked the crew how Amy compared to Madonna as an employee.  The answer:
"No comparison.  I'd work for Amy Grant any day."  I think that's pretty good f
ruit.


   Marissa Ratcliff             Document Delivery
   Univeristy of GA             Science Library
   Athens, GA
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:32:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      ROMANS 8:26 AND PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT.

My use of Romans 8:26 in reference to the Holy Spirit interceding for us in
our prayers because we do not know how to pray nor what to pray for was not
at all a misinterpretation.  The issue of speaking in tongues is completely
different.

Praying or speaking in tongues is, specifically, a gift of the Spirit,
given and used for special purposes, not for general, personal praying.
You cannot find in Paul's writings that private prayer should be in a
tongue, in fact, his advice on there always being an interpreter of a
tongue would preclude personal prayer in tongues.

About the Koreans, these are the same folks who were telling us the end of
the world was going to come on October 28th of last year, we're still here
so I wouldn't hold all Korean Christians up as paragons.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 04:26:36 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Sabbath and Lord's Day

In response to Lon Mendelsohn's posting on the Sabbath, I recommend
my Essay on the origins of the Christian observance of Sunday. To
obtain a copy, send the message GET LORDS DAY to
LISTSERV@ASUACAD.BITNET or to LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:00:37 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: CARMAN

We have four Carman videos, including "Addicted to Jesus". They are very well
done, and are quite exciting.
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:48:40 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: C.S. Lewis
              93 8:05 pm

>
>Speaking of Christmas, how about the circumcision on the 8th day.  Did you
>celebrate that?  This was the first blood that the Lord shed for us.
>
>                                           Peace in Christ, zane.
>
That is really a strange way of looking at it (not being nasty here)..

Shed his blood for us in circumcism?? Hardly the shedding of blood for
the remission of sins is it.. Rather the joining of the old and new
covennants perhaps...




---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:45:40 CST
From:         JRALLS@TRINITY.BITNET
Subject:      prayer request

Dear Christia friends,

I'm asking for prayer for my sister-in-law Marie Ralls. I've just
learned that she is having an MRI of her neck this afternoon. I don't
know all the details, but this is the 2nd time she has had an MRI and
because she is extremely claustrophobic they are putting her
completely to sleep this time. She has a different doctor now and
apparently he wants to do surgery on her neck for whatever is
bothering her. Please pray for her--she has other family problems
on her mind at this time too. Thank you all.
Love in Christ,
JoEllen

JoEllen Ralls                       Jralls@trinity (Bitnet)
Elizabeth Coates Maddux Library     Jralls@trinity.edu (Internet)
Trinity University                  so many books,
San Antonio, Texas                          so little time...
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 12:52:53 -0500
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Responsibility

> Date: 23 Dec 1992 12:45:10 -0700
> From: "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Responsibility
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@asu.edu>
>
> On Dec 22,  9:58am, Dan Harling wrote:
> } Subject: Re: Responsibility and final action
> } Our approach to abortion clinics should be the same: work to eliminate
> } the demand for their services.  Organizations such as Birthright try to
> } arrange room and board for expectant mothers, so they can keep their
> } children and get back to supporting themselves as quickly as possible.
> } By providing a working alternative, keeping the child rather than
> } having an abortion becomes a viable alternative that many women take,
> } thus reducing the demand for abortions...
>
> While I would agree that we must work to eliminate the demand for
> abortion, and that organizations such as Birthright are worthwhile
> and worthy of our support, I nevertheless feel that this is not
> enough.
>
>         To draw an analogy that I'm sure some will find distasteful --
> say there is a concentration camp outside town where homeless
> people are being held and killed.  Would you claim that all we should
> do is work to eliminate the causes of homelessness?  I think this is
> similar.  While we must work to eliminate the root causes, we cannot
> ignore the slaughter that is taking place.

If the bathtub is overflowing, and you have a mop, a sponge, a bucket,
and a roll of paper towels, what is the *first* thing you should do?

Turn off the water.

I contend that Christians as a whole are expending far more effort to
mop up the floor than to shut off the flow of water.  If anything, it
should be vice-versa.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:21:35 -0500
From:         "The Truly Wise Man learns from the mistakes of others."
              <GILLEYZ@WABASH.BITNET>
Subject:      Concerning inquiries about new book.

All with inquiries concerning new book on revelation:

I hate to send another posting to these lists, because I know that many of
them have a large volume.

  I just found out today that my account is going to be deleted within the
week.  If you would like to still send an inquiry, you may send your
response to XIANGJ@WABASH.BITNET.  Your snail mail address would be much
apreciated, so that I can get ahold of you.  For convience sake, could you
also specify the subject line so that it contains the string "REVELA" ?

Take care,  and I hope to hear from some of you soon,

                Buy the truth, and sell it not,

                        Zane
Zane Gilley
GILLEYZ@WABASH (inquiries to XIANGJ@WABASH.BITNET)
317-2 E. College
Crawfordsville, IN 47933
317-362-8325
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:22:33 -0600
From:         Tom Shelton 314 694-3831 <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject:      RE: QUESTION ON PRAYER

    I feel that God does not always answer prayer.  Prayers that are not in
line with His word/will I feel will not be answered.  As an extreme example,
if I pray for God to give me my neighbors wife and I do not get her is that
an unanswered prayer.  I think so but, my prayer would have violated several
spiritual laws (even if you do not take into account that I am already
married).

I also agree that God may answer a prayer in a way that we are not expecting
and we may consider that an unanswered prayer if we are not in tune with
listening to Him.  Some answers can be very subtle.

Tom Shelton
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:27:10 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Venturing into full-time motherhood

Julie Nott,
    Your calling as a full-time mother is the greatest of all callings.
Go for it! Trust the Lord to provide for your financial needs. We did it
two years ago, and are prospering now as never before.
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:53:44 -0500
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

Dear Gang,

I told my father about all my faithful friends from around the globe
who are praying for him and he was extremely touched. Thank you! I
have printed the prayers and words of encourgagement and will take them
to him so he can see them.

He was so pleased and touched by you all that he has been sharing it with
some of his friends and family. He has a sister who along with her husband
have gotten along in years and are facing some very serious sickness.
My aunt, Madge Mashburn is taking care of her husband, James Mashburn who
is fighting cancer. It started in the prostate and has spread all over his
body now. Please pray for his complete healing and grace in his hour
of need. I choose to believe the report of the Lord!
Aunt Madge took a fall and broke a rib, she suffers from congestive
heart failure and enphysema. She loves Jesus and has been a very positive
spiritual influence in my life. They are in their early seventies.

When Dad shared about my Christia friends with them, Madge and James
asked if my friends would lift them up in prayer. You guys are touching
so many people with your testimony! Thank you my friends. God Bless you all...
Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:26:40 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer alert

A concerned citizen named John expressed an objection that at a state
funded college called Cleveland State University there were pornographic
depictions. One painting portrayed Jesus Christ with his nose replaced
by a male sex organ. The exhibit director insisted the first amendment
protected this type of artistic expression.

Keith, that's garbage. Not only is it an insult to us, it's garbage.

Keith Fournier: It's blasphemy, it's sick and it shows the complicity that
we're dealing with. All year we've tried to help students through out this
country who have been prevented from... Christian students, from sharing
the gospel on campus, and having Christian organizations.

The argument was somehow the first amendment prevented religion on campus.
And now these same people are saying the first amendment allows blasphemy
on campus?

We're dealing with something that has become so insane, and we've got to
keep fighting. We've got to keep the communications open....

They go on to talk about how these stories rarely hit the paper, and that
many people are totally unaware of what's going on. They talked about how
the "enemy" is rewriting history, "liberty" is now the ability to kill that
in the womb when ever it becomes inconvenient, etc. They hope to be able to
take much of that ground back.

It seems this nation needs our prayers, at least some areas.

Maks.
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: contraception
Date: 12 Jan 93 13:28:07 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Scott,  I would like to see you relate the Gospel to your idea of >living  a
comfortable life.<  Somehow I think that if we are bringing kids into this
world to have a comfortable life we are missing the mark somehow.  Peace, zane.
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:53:04 -0500
From:         "The Truly Wise Man learns from the mistakes of others."
              <GILLEYZ@WABASH.BITNET>
Subject:      New book on revelation...must read for seekers of truth.

Greetings all,

    I have a friend who is getting very near to finishing a book on
Revelation.  I am estimating that it will be about 700 pages in length.
I can guarantee that this book will contain things that make more sense
that ANYTHING else that I have heard regarding this book.  I have prompted
him to type me up a quick intro about this book so that I could distrubute
it and compile a list of people who might be interested in obtaining a
copy.
    This book will contain many thought provoking ideas, and even now, I am
sure that he will be persecuted in some manner after this book is put out
in print.
    If any of you would like to be sent more info. later, please send me a
quick email so that I can write your name down.  If you like you can send
your regular mailing address as well.
     Please reply privately as I am not currently subscribed to this list.

                        In search of nothing but the truth,

                                     Zane Gilley
GILLEYZ@WABASH
317-2 E. College
Crawfordsville, IN
47933
317-362-8325
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: C.S. Lewis
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:01:45 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Speaking of brother Lewis, I am now reading Perelandra to my kids after read-
ing them Out of the Silent Planet.  I am really enjoying it.  My kids are too,
but I am not sure how much of it they understand.  I am just at the part where
Ransom beats up Weston's body.  That is kind of a strange twist to me.

Speaking of Christmas, how about the circumcision on the 8th day.  Did you
celebrate that?  This was the first blood that the Lord shed for us.

                                           Peace in Christ, zane.
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:31:31 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: CS Lewis - Abolition of Man 2

> Date: 11 Jan 1993 14:06:55 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Scott D. Weberg" <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject: Re: CS Lewis - Abolition of Man 2
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
> I think Lewis perceived science as evil, or at least very dangerous.
> So he tried to speak out against it as a philosophy.  This was his
> mistake, in my opinion, for science is much more than another
> philosophical view of the world; science is a *process* of discovery.
> It is the way in which human beings explore the Universe that God
> created for us.  It can be used for both good and evil.
>
> So I think that Lewis just had a very close-minded view of science;
> he saw it only as a means of control and destruction.  We can
> understand WHY he held this view, but we can surely also see that it
> was a flawed, or at least an incomplete view of science.
> Any comments?

What other books by Lewis have you read?  If you have read _Miracles_,
note that Lewis' main point about science is that it must by definition
neglect to consider the metaphysical in order to accomplish its goals
as an empirical pursuit.  It is not this fact that he would criticize,
but the way in which it is (or at least *was*) used as an implicit step
in concluding on a scientific basis that the metaphysical (including
God) does not exist.

The "philosophy" that science can prove scientifically that only the
physical world exists, and therefore science is Mankind's ultimate
source of truth, amounted to the deification of science (and it is
still a popular belief).  It was against this philosophy, and not
science itself, which Lewis argued.

In none of the books that I have read by Lewis, have I found any reason
to conclude that he was essentially paranoid of science, and found
several reasons to believe otherwise.  Taken in isolation, I can see
how the terminology could be misleading, much like Biblical references
to "the flesh" or "the world".  When considered with the rest of his
writings, however, this interpretation of _The Abolition of Man_
becomes rather less plausible.

Respectfully submitted,
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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