HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: The War Between Us
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:15:48 GMT


Ciaran McHale writes:
	Bisexuals need to build their own community rather than try to
	integrate with the existing lesbian and gay communities.

Berry writes:
   Actually, I'd phrase it rather differently:

       Bisexuals need to build their own community and try to
       work with existing communities, including lesbian and
       gay communities.

I think what I said is fully compatible with what Dave said, but pehaps
I was overly concise and that lead to ambiguity. I would have let it
pass since it I consider it to be a minor misuderstanding but the number
of followups indicates that the misunderstanding is wider/deeper than I
had thought.


Bisexual seperatist? Moi? Nah...

Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
From: hopkins@turing.ac.uk (Don Hopkins)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Edinbugger Muffins
Date: 17 Jul 92 00:50:50 GMT
	<1992Jul9.090932.49301@ccvax.ucd.ie> <23668@castle.ed.ac.uk>
	<1992Jul14.091120.49327@ccvax.ucd.ie> <5348@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
Organization: The Turing Institute, Ltd.

dente@els.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente) writes:

   |> Thanks to everyone for coming, er, attending, even those who disappeared
   |> earlier on than expected (hehehe, stop blushing, you know who you are :-)
   Hmm... a certain Californian has some explaining to do... :-)

Who me??! I took *way* *long* to disappear! Well, we did disappear
temporarily, but when we returned soon after, we were chanting, 

We're here,
we're queer,
we just went out for chips!

	-Don
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9675 soc.motss:32802
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:21:29 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Jul28.111120.23888@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:

>
>I have heard it said that "biphobia" and "heterophobia" (I use quotes
>since I am not too sure what the terms mean) within the GL community are
>a result of homophobia. If we can get rid of the latter then the other
>two might also disapper.

I tend to agree.



-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjohnson@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Coe Salzgeber)
Subject: Re: Let's go Bonding (Was: 'women's' vs 'lesbian')
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 01:46:52 GMT
Organization: Cow Poly, San Luis Obispo, CA

cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) said...
>The following quote (page 27 of "Equality Now for Lesbians and Gay
>Men") seems to deal with romantic relationships rather than emotional
>bonding between best friends, but perhaps the refs it gives might be a
>good place to start looking for more information.
>
>----cut here----
>	... both heterosexual and lesbian women express similar levels
>	of satisfaction and commitment from their relationships, as do
>	heterosexual and gay men from theirs[11]. In fact, the
>	differences in satisfaction and commitment which may exist
>	between heterosexual and homosexual relationships arise not
>	from the sexual orientation of the couple, but from the gender
>	of the individuals[12].
>
>Notes:
>[11]	See Duffy and Rusbult, "Satisfaction and Commitment in
>	Homosexual and Heterosexual Relationships," 12 J. Homosex. 1,
>	18--19 (1985--86)
>[12]	Ibid., at 20--21. The point is that people tend to learn
>	socially inculcated gender attitudes and behaviour at a much
>	earlier age than they become aware of sexual orientation.
>----cut here----

Hulp!  i'm lost.  Let me try to rephrase this, and you can (gently, please)
tell me if i've got it or i'm way off.

Women showed similar levels of satisfaction, regardless of orientation.
Men showed similar levels of satisfaction, regardless of orientation.
There are differences in satisfaction between heterosexual and homosexual
 relationships.
Those differences arise from gender?
huh?

maybe i'm tired...
maybe i've been working too hard...

-Coe
-- 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Theta waves are brain waves
Coe L. Salzgeber - San Luis Obispo, CA !  (4-7hz) that are dominant in children
Internet: cjohnson@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU !  ages 2 - 5 and in psychopaths.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: rhialto@cs.kun.nl (Olaf Seibert)
Subject: Re: Touching and the party
Organization: Intravenous News Addicts
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:17:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.064428.18334@ddsw1.mcs.com> zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh) writes:
>In article <2a6aeb42@ThreeL.co.uk> jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher) writes:
>>
>>I don't even see it as people have "touching problems". 
>>Some people like to be touched; others don't.  I don't like
>>shellfish.  They turn my stomach just to think of them. 
>>But I don't regard this as a "problem" I need help with.
>>It's just the way I am.
>>
>	I have a touching problem. I don't think it's the type you are
>discussing though, but it applies... I like to be touched.  Some people
>around me I love (philia) like to be touched. I would like to hug them, etc.
>But I *can't*.  It's a problem.
>	(X anyone? :-)

I know the feeling. It was better a bit at The Party, because many times
the persons around me would take the initiative, which made it easier to
join in. But in other cases I /think/ people may not dislike a hug or
a feel, but I'm not sure enough of that to actually do anything. And it
seems that I have to be /very very/ sure of that.

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert      B4f+-t-w--g+k+(+)svmrp+  rhialto@cs.kun.nl
\X/  I survived Dave's party for 7 days and all I got was this lousy .sig!
From: julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Song Weaver)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: More on marraige
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:34:36 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Brad once again responds to me:
>>...If you truly love your
>>spouse and s/he truly loves you than that document is irrelevant to
>>you.
> 
> Well, I'm willing to have you despise me, but not presume on me.
> You're being a bit arrogant in thinking that you can dictate the terms
> under which Suzanne and I can be entitled to 'true love'.  If we want
> to have that paper, that's none of your business.  Get your nose out of
> our relationship.

This is a fair response, given the manner in which I phrased my
comments.  I meant to suggest a more generic "you" but I wasn't clear
in expressing it.  However, your point is taken.  

But... I brought this stuff up because you were attempting to justify
an action which to me is exclusionary and I felt a need to address it. 
I don't care about your relationship-- I've said that before.  I care
about the legal avenues you use to validate it.  If you had a child
and were sending her to a school which would not allow blacks to
attend and I were to complain about segregationist schools, would you
tell me to mind my own business because I'm trying to interfere with
the manner in which you choose to raise your child?  I'm complaining
about a situation and the injustice involved in it and the manner in
which some people have willingly engaged in that injustice.  Whether
or not you are among the people engaged in it is irrelevant.

Furthermore, I feel that the argument that it's none of my business
how you and your wife love one another is not pertinent to this topic. 
You, of course, are welcome to disagree with me, but once again, I
would appreciate it if you would not mistake my vigor in pursuing this
subject as akin to direct attacks on your person.  I have not once
classified you, categorized you, referred to you by any nasty name,
flamed you or done anything of that nature.  I'd prefer it if we all
were to keep it that way.

Also, there is a new issue, which is the stuff you brought up about
Canadian law.  In the U.S., at least in the part of the U.S. I live in
(Rhode Island), there is no such thing as a "common law marraige" and
the only way in which you can get married is by performing the action
itself.  So this is kinda irrelevant to you, anyway, since you are
given little choice in the matter.

--Julie                            
                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------
            
"Naturally the common people don't want war... but after all it is the  
leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along...  All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger." 

                          -- Hermann Goering, 1936                              
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Well, here goes...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:57:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.203505.180832@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> sr09@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SIMON NICHOLAS RUSSELL) writes:
>Since I've been reading soc.bi for several months now, I feel it's about
>time I posted something and got involved.  Having denied my bisexual identity
>for somewhere in the region of thirteen years, and having only claimed it
>during March/April of this year, this isn't exactly the easiest e-mail I've
>ever composed.  I've e-mailed individual posters to soc.bi as steps towards
>coming out more extensively, and I would like to thank them for their help and
>support (they know who they are!).
>That said, I suppose some sort of confession/biography is necessary at this
>point--I'm 26, English (currently living in exile in Pennsylvania until the
>glorious return of a Socialist Parliament--or Doomsday.  Whichever comes
>soonest.)

Hopefully you haven't gone and wasted money on a return ticket ;-).

>, have long red hair (enroll me on appropriate lists as necessary),
>and I am a doctoral student (english lit.).  Favourite comment on informing
>old friend of my bisexuality:  "Well, you've always been a sort of dichotomous
>person.  There's probably a place for you in folklore."  Perhaps I should let
>my hair trail from an open window and invite passing prince/princesses to
>climb up and rescue me.  Anyone?

Well, some of us do know how to use stairs.  Just leave the door open or hide
a key under the mat.

>Looking forward to talking with you at last, and (dare I hope?) an encounter
>with the welcome wagon,
>
>Simon.

*Hugs*


Brad
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: Clive's Pictures of the Party...
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:41:12 GMT

In article <AAG.92Jul22210208@gabriel.aber.ac.uk> aag@aber.ac.uk (Angela Gilham) writes:
|And then, of course, some of us didn't do anything that could be used
|for blackmail  . . . <fails dismally in attempt to look innocent>

   Um.  I really hate to say this(*) but Don wasn't fibbing when he was
telling about getting the infrared film pictures developed.  I'm waiting
for the colour-corrected gifs...

                __
  david parsons \/ "so many men, so little time.."
From: pclary@carrot.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:04:13 GMT
Organization: Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, CA - aka Barnum & Bailey

dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott) wrote...
>[I wrote]
>>The bi's and marriage thread appeared in soc.bi and not soc.motss.  
>
>I was sure the bi's and marriage thread ended up crossposted at times, too.
>But again I went from memory.

I just double-checked.  No, it was never crossposted.

>Well, at the time I admitted to going from memory, and as I later revealed
>had mistaken you for a soc.motss'er.  Apologies on both accounts.

Apology accepted. :-)

>Give me a moment, while I pull this foot out of my mouth.
>
>The nice thing is, that although I'm stupid, I'm not set in my ways yet.  Lead
>me.

Now I never called you stupid - not even away from the net. <grin>

Though I've been cast in leadership roles before, I'd be much more 
comfortable if you stood beside me rather than followed.

You're getting good input from several wise souls on this thread
(albeit some noise too).  I'll chime in if I feel something isn't 
being said, but I think you've got plenty to mentally chew on
at the moment.

Ellen
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: Hetero/bi/homophobia (Was: Lesbian denial)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:56:05 GMT

In <1992Jul28.214715.4145@dsg.cs.tcd.ie>
cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>mhk@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mark Kaepplein x1517) writes:
>>Its usually feelings incongruent with one's identity that provoke such
>                                 ^^^^^^^
>>violent actions.
>
>I hate it when people pull broad, sweeping statements out of thin air [...]

Damn! Damn! And tripple damn! (Dental dams, the lot of them.) Trust me
to underline an important word in a sentence and _then_ do some cut and
pasting to screw things up. The underline should be under the word
"usually."


Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
From: jclark@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (John Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Ireland Party (was Re: Muffin Alert!)
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:24:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <24290@castle.ed.ac.uk> sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing) writes:
+My apologies.  But I wouldn't be very happy if someone suggested that
+someone visiting me didn't bother stopping in Edinburgh but instead went
+to Glasgow as quickly as possible because that was where it was

Isn't there an arts festival coming up in Glasgow in August...

Actually, given the entire western half of the US, to find Escondido
as a terminal point surprised me. Not that there aren't 'wonderful'
things to see and places to go and people to see in the area, but I
presumed that you knew some one in the town to go visit.

Of course lately I've been hearing about a certain Puerto Escondido
in the southern costal Pacific area of Mexico...
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: YOUNG AND QUEER REPOSTED
From: dsolis@koko.csustan.edu (Djelrik Solis)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 08:05:08 GMT
Organization: CSU Stanislaus



	Thanks for posting this. 
	I went to high school across the bay in San Francisco, some
years ago, and things were much the same as they are reported in this
article :(  Although, it might have been easier to have had a boyfriend than
a girlfriend, considering the way she was.  Too bad Craig was straight.

Djelrik
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Drummers (was Re: OK - I give in...)
Date: 21 Jul 92 09:49:08 GMT
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
Organization: Metalogic, S.a r.l.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <1992Jul14.161920.1884@cfa.harvard.edu> (soc.bi), sml@cfa.harvard.edu (Susan Lauber) writes:
> 
> Quick fingers and strong wrists would make sense.
> Too bad you are on the other coast - ;-)

That's what I keep saying to myself. ;-)
> 
> hugs (watch those hands)

Always.  After all I want to see what it is they are touching. (evil
leer)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: Marraige and Apartheid
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 11:21:58 GMT

To summarise:

Julie (julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu) believes that because marriage is
only available to some members of society, it is discriminatory,
especially against those in motss relationships. She suggests that by
participating in this institution, one is helping to perpetuate it.
So, if you are in a motos relationship and care enough about queer
liberation, you should not get married.
[I hope that's an accurate summary; please correct me if it is not.]


mhk@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mark Kaepplein x1517) follows up sarcasticly, saying:
>	"Until stricter clean-air laws are passed, I'm not going to breathe.
>	Any *real* environmentalist would do the same."
> 
>If that strikes you as silly, then why is everyone's knickers in a knot
>over bi's getting married?  If you want to marry a motos, go ahead.
>Refusing to do so isn't going to gain much attention.


In <1992Jul30.094541.1650@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
Julie takes exception to this and says:

>Your "analogy" to clean-air acts is silly and seems intended to
>belittle and make fun of a viewpoint which I take very seriously. I
>object to this simply because it's typical tactic of someone who is
>more interested in poking fun and amusing themselves at the expense of
>others' than someone who has any concern for genuine change.

While I can understand Mark's comments being read in that light, I think
a different interpretation is more accurate. I'll try to explain. There
are two things to do: (i) recognise that the current laws about
marriage are indeed discrinimatory, and (ii) suggest a _feasible_ way to
combat this discrimination.

While I think Julie read Mark's comments as disagreeing with (i), I read
them as agreeing with (i) but sarcasticly dismissing Julie's suggestion
for (ii) as unfeasible.

I am inclined to agree with Mark. If somebody presents me with a viable
way to combat discrimination then I might take note of it. But if they
suggest something which I think is futile then I will not inconvenience
myself.


<> Q.  What do I say when introduced to a homosexual "couple"?
<> A.  "How do you do?  How do you do?"
<> --- Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior

Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9747 alt.sex:25374
From: psymp@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.bi,alt.sex
Subject: Re: search for sexy/not-trashy fiction
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:15:09 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi,alt.sex,alt.sex.motss
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In article <1992Jul23.144803.20789@philabs.philips.com>, kts@philabs.philips.com (Kimberley T. Smith) writes:
> i'm looking for fiction with sex and love or maybe just sex.  
> 
> preferably, it would not place any female characters in inane or
> subordinate roles.  Lots of plot and relationship development would be
> great too!  heterosexual and homosexual sex is wonderful.
> 
> any suggestions??
> 
> --kim
> 
> e-mail c/o:philabs!nrh@uunet.uu.net
> school e-mail: KSMITH@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:29:18 GMT

In article <Bs25Gr.M4o@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott) writes:
> I guess what I'm saying is that one group is easy to identify as an enemy and
> their simple-minded motivations of hate and fear easy to identify.

And it's worth pointing out that alliances formed solely by "the enemy
of my enemy is my friend" approach frequently turn the allies into
bitter enemies when the common enemy is eliminated.  (Thirty years ago,
Jews and Blacks marched side by side for civil rights and against the
Klan.  They are not what one might call the best of friends these
days.  And though the Germans and Japanese were allies in WWII, I doubt
their "friendship" would have lasted much past any victory they might
have achieved.  When Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church he was
very friendly to the Jews until he discovered they were not going to
convert to his new church; then he became as rabid an anti-Semite as the
Catholics had been before.  The list is endless.)

Of course, it could be claimed that getting rid of the 'phobes and
bigots and achieving equal rights and protection would be worth the
risk.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
					 -- Isaac Asimov (1920-1992)
From: n8946410@animal.cc.wwu.edu (Cameron Parish)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Klein Grids (Was Re: The War Between Us (Long))
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:12:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Jul31.181222.8993
Organization: Western Washington University

In article <hghnb9yl@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>
>Fished?  :)  Anyway, HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG - it's always good to see another
>bi biologist (even if I am defrocked, and spend my days worrying about
>user interfaces, I was once a micro & virol student).
	and HUGS back at you!  Let's see, how many bi-ologists do we have
around here?  You, me, Thom, Theresa...   a few more and we'll be able to
start a list for hunters of Biology-people.  

>I'd have said that 2-5 inclusive was bisexual enough, if you go by the
>Kinsey scale.  But mebbe it's time to stop defining us in terms of Kinsey
>ratings: have any of you seen the Klein grid?  It seems much more reasonable
>and more about people than sex... perhaps Dave Berry will repost it - I
>think that it was he who did, some months back.

	I think I ran into the Klein grid in a mouse-chewed textbook that
I found in a free-book box a couple of months ago, and discarded.  (How 
I can remember things like this, and still forget my own telephone number,
is beyond me.) Does the main grid thingie look something like this?
	      
	        -----------------
	       	|	|       |	in which heterosexual attraction
	      	|  gay	|   bi	|  	increases from right to left, and
	      	|	|	|	homosexual attraction increases from
		-----------------	down to up
		|	|	|
		|asexual|   het	|
		|	|	|
	      	-----------------
		
	If this isn't the Klein grid, would somebody correct me, and tell
me what it is?
	In any case, it sort of annoyed me, because superficially it seemed
to imply (heh, how's that for hedging?), especially in the accompaning text
that we bisexuals are necessarily Crazed Sex Demons of the first order.
And, y'know, I'm not really a grade-A Crazed Sex Demon (*sob* does this
mean I'm not a good bisexual?).   At the time, it seemed to support the
clueless-het-male-seeks-hot-bi-babe-action phenomenon.... and since I'd 
had a bit of a problem with a cluelessmale, I grumbled a bit.
	
	I'd like to see a different interpretation, though...

-- Cam Parish, Kinsey e (heck, I like that.)
From: cjohnson@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Coe Salzgeber)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: _Prelude to a Kiss_
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:28:46 GMT
Organization: Cow Poly, San Luis Obispo, CA

sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing) said...
>cjohnson@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Coe Salzgeber) writes:
>
>>Hullo, it's me (long-time muffin Coe, according to Ellen)
>>I'm only a muffin because I usually don't have time to keep
>>up.  But i am making a concerted effort now...
>
>Coe!  Hello!  Good to have you around; Ellen has talked to me about you.
>Can't wait to see you both next month ...

Great... so you are showing up next month, Colin is coming some
time around Christmas... When do i get to meet the other cuties
in Ellen's pictures?

-Coe
-- 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Theta waves are brain waves
Coe L. Salzgeber - San Luis Obispo, CA !  (4-7hz) that are dominant in children
Internet: cjohnson@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU !  ages 2 - 5 and in psychopaths.