From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: race based fetishes
Date: 8 Jan 93 09:40:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan8.094016.1811
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

I'm glad this topic is getting careful treatment here. It's very
difficult for me to understand, something I'm prepared to spend a lot
of time thinking about and not come to any conclusions.

In article <1993Jan7.222331.16387@oracle.us.oracle.com> dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly) writes:
>I've been noticing a common experience in recent weeks here:
>1) Nelson objects when older men admire him for being young.

(it's odd to see it written that succinctly, because it sounds like I
want people to ignore my youth. But Daniel's statement isn't that bad
of a summary, in some ways. More later.)

>I've been intrigued to learn about the ways people feel
>objectified.  I'm not invalidating the experiences that have been
>presented, but for me personally, I'm flattered whenever someone
>finds me desirable because of, for example, my body type or
>complexion or height or age, etc., or any combination of these.

I'm flattered when people find me attractive, for any reason. I don't
mind it if someone finds my age attractive, and I don't have a problem
with older men who have an expressed preference for men my age. Suits
me fine! But when all they care about is that I'm young:

>So I can see how I, too, would soon be annoyed if someone's initial
>attraction to me did not lead to an appreciation of my thoughts,
>feelings, interests, etc.

And this is the complication. When someone has a fantasy about
acquiring a young man, or a black person, or a young Asian wife, or a
guy with a big dick, then it can happen that this person will never go
beyond the aspects that create the fantasy. This is offensive, and
does not appear to be all that uncommon.

On the other hand, not all cases are this extreme.  As you say,
secondary characteristics (age, race, etc.) can play an enormously
useful role in setting the hook for initial attraction. I don't see
any reason to think this is bad.

On the third hand, I imagine it must be unpleasant to have men hit on
you solely because of your race. I don't know what to think.

>>Because I am Asian, I have run into lots and lots of white men with
>>Asian fetishes, especially before I came out as a lesbian.
>This situation probably involves a power imbalance between men and women 
>in addition to the cross-cultural stereotypes.

there's also a parallel in the gay-male community. For example,
there's the magazine "Oriental Guys" - it specializes in pictures of
young Asian men ostensibly looking for companions. It gives me the
willies - it just screams to me "objectification."

But is it that different from Chiron Rising (a magazine featuring
older men), Bear, or even a generic gay-male-porn magazine?  Maybe
there's a difference in that there's an entire history to the
dominance of Asian people. If I'm not careful, I'm going to start
making claims about why porn-of-women is bad but porn-of-men is ok.

>The question is, who is carrying the baggage:  (1) the white male 
>who's fond of black males because of a stereotypical expectation/myth -- 
>e.g., presuming they'll have bigger penises? or (2) the black male
>who's assuming an objectification where there might be none?

all depends on the weight of the baggage, I guess. I've never laid
awake at night wondering if some other person is only interested in me
because I'm young. It's always seemed pretty clear to me what the
other person's interest in me is once I've talked to him for more than
five minutes. Beyond any personal feelings I might have about being
objectified (and truthfully, I don't worry about it much), I don't
think I'd care much for anyone who didn't treat other people as equal
human beings.

Jojo once said:
"Remember, you're not just a man, you're also a piece of meat."
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/       This is the time, and this is the record of the time
Newsgroups: soc.motss