From: chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie)
Subject: Re: Don't tell the Anti-Hunters
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:44:05 GMT

In <BvxvCo.AoL@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

[some previous material deleted]
>In this country, you'd be judged by a jury of folks who may have 
>"gods" that are quite different from your own.  Some of them may 
>have no religious beliefs at all, and conclude that anyone who 
>kills in the name of a fictitious "god" is either an insincere 
>criminal or a dangerous lunatic.    

If I did kill a person without sufficient reason then I would have to
suffer the consequences as dictated by human's law and ultimately God's law. 
This is my belief however and does not mean that you must subscribe to it.

>Several years ago a geologist working for a major oil company here 
>in New Orleans was ordered by "god" to kill a woman and two kids.
>He succeeded in killing the kids with a knife.  He critically 
>injured the woman, but she survived and testified at his murder
>trial.  He's now locked up in Angola prison, I believe, where he's
>no doubt had quite a bit of time to rethink his belief that
>all humans belong to "god".

Just because someone claims that they commited an act in so and so's name
does not mean that that so and so ordered it or even condoned it.  I
should note that you are ascribing the belief that all humans belong to God.

>wc> Again however I fail to see what this has to do with the discussion 
>wc> at hand.  

>It's clear that you won't be able to understand the concept of animal
>rights if your religious notions prevent you from accepting the concept
>of human rights.  

What exactly are my religious notions that prevent me from seeing the
concept of rights for humans or animals as you perceive them?  What
human rights do I not accept that you may have incorrectly assumed or 
interpreted from my previous posts?

>Does your "god" truly own my body, to (mis)treat as he and his  
>followers see fit?  Or does my body belong to my mind, to deal 
>with as I see fit?  

>Does your "god" truly own the body of a cow to (mis)treat as
>he and his followers see fit?  Or does the cow's body belong to
>the mind of the cow?

I believe that God as creator of the Universe (I am quite happy with the
Big Bang theory) does have a right to say that God made us.  He also gave
us (allowed us to elvolve to) free thought to do as we choose.  Yes you do
own your body.  What you do with it is your own business.  I also believe
that God has asked us to do/not do things on earth that we will be judged
for when we die.  As a person that believes Jesus of Nazareth was the
Messiah I have accepted certain responsibilities that I will be judged for
when I pass on.  As I think you are not one who follows the same faith as
I (faith being defined as seperate from organized religion) I think you
would have to be judged with different criteria, some of which may be the
same as mine while other criteria will be different.  I think you're
attempting to bait me with the '(mis)treat as he and his followers see
fit'.  God has given us directions as how to deal with one another (one of
Christ's commandments was to love thy neighbour as thyself).  If you have
been persecuted by people who are followers of Christ then they are going
against his wishes and will be judged as such.  Christians do not have any
set guidelines on how to deal with animals though.  For the cow's dilemma
the cow is following one of nature's laws.  Namely that superior beings
can (and will in this instance) do what they want with it.  I consider
humans superior animals generally and therefore can override what the cow
wants.  I wish to eat the cow because I'm hungry.  I will arrange some way
to kill it and feast upon it.  Alternatively if I'm caught between a
mother bear and her cubs and the mother mauls me then the superior beast
again has their way (although I probably would have wished to have a large
gun to change the superiority balance--self preservation and all that). 
To perhaps clarify the situation I consider animal rights and human rights
seperate.  Humans have different rights set-up by whatever society they
live in, some of those rights even have been influenced by what God has
asked us to honor.  Other animals (aside from humans) I will deal with as
the law of nature allows.  If I don't want to eat a moose then I won't
kill one.  If I would prefer to eat a mallard then I will kill one
(subject to the game laws humans have set and also finding one) and eat
it.  The rights I give animals are that should I need to kill one I
attempt to give it as quick and painless a death as possible.  Until game
laws are modified (which are the only human implemented 'rights') those
are the only rights I feel I am obliged to give other animals. 

Will Christie
-- 
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