From: maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (John MAX Skaller)
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: MAXTAL P/L C/- University Computing Centre, Sydney
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:06:25 GMT

In article <24JUL199207433737@erich.triumf.ca> histlib@erich.triumf.ca (Mary Olin) writes:
>
>It looks as though your basic point is that if one group in
>a society is oppressed, all are oppressed, and I agree. It is
>important for us to be aware of the effects of inequality on those who
>are seen as the dominant group.

	I see no unique dominant group.

	If you think men are uniquely the dominant group, then
you might consider yourself biased --- perhaps even sexist.

	Assuming men and women have equal capacities, then
for every area that men dominate, the time and energy put into
that area creates a vacuum that is filled by women---and in those
areas women dominate.

	Just as men, perhaps, have dominated the "workplace",
so have women dominated the "home", and especially child rearing.

	Just as physically strong men have dominated women,
strong willed women have dominated men.
>
>What I haven't seen you addressing, though, is the fact that the degree
>of oppression is not necessarily the same.

	The *nature* of the oppression is different to the extent
that it is gender-based. The degree varies according to the measuring
standard (including which sex the observer is :-) and the
area under consideration.


>Let's take your ideas to more
>obvious cases. Would you expect the blacks of South Africa or the women
>of Saudi Arabia to be as sympathetic to the problems of the dominant
>groups in their countries as to their own?

	No. I dont expect much from human beings, such expectations
prove to be unfounded too often.

>
>There's also the ugly fact that there still exist in our culture men
>who do actively try to exclude women from their traditional power
>base.

	There's also the ugly fact that there still exist in our culture
women who actively exclude men from their traditional power base. Sex.

>Women, on the other hand, do not (at least not in any sort of
>systematic manner) try to exclude men from child-rearing and other
>traditionally female roles.

	Most women seem to DEMAND an exclusive relationship
in return for sexual favours. That is their traditional power
base in modern society.

	If you (female reader) dont believe this:
how many times have you had sexual offers from men? Perhaps
even "more than enough"?? Harassment?

	Now ask male friends the same question.

	Men go to parties to meet prospective sexual partners,
as do women. (Amoung other reasons, of course :-)

	Invariably (well, almost), it is the woman who has the choice.

[Note: I'm not talking about forming a relationship here:
finding suitable partners is probably just as hard for both sexes]

>
>How about a compromise. When we women are talking with men like you,
>we call ourselves humanists and work together on our mutual problems.
>When, on the other hand, we're talking to those in our culture who are
>the source of the problems we both have, we women and men like you all
>call ourselves feminists. One name for dealing with areas where the
>oppression is equal, another for areas where it's not.

	IMHO if it is a gender based problem, it is in the scope
of feminism. Indeed, I think the attraction of feminism is that
it has transcended gender issues. Perhaps it was first applied
to race issues (after gender issues), and now we
have feminist environmentalism, feminist economics, and it has
become a much more general political issue.

	The strength of this extended feminism is perhaps its
great success in dealing with oppression of women and the hope
that it can also be applied to other areas of life.

	As such I do not see "Humanism" as really that similar
to feminism. Feminism *already* transcends gender issues
(and not just womens issues), and its point of view is
quite different from humanism.

	In particular I think humanism suffers from the flaw
of elevating humanity to highest importance. Such a
"humano-centric" view of the universe may have trouble
coping with the confict between survival of life on Earth
and human comfort, for example.

--
;----------------------------------------------------------------------
        JOHN (MAX) SKALLER,         maxtal@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
	Maxtal Pty Ltd, 6 MacKay St ASHFIELD, NSW 2131, AUSTRALIA
;--------------- SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING SOFTWARE ------------------

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