HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcgregoa@cognos.uucp (Alayne McGregor)
Subject: Re: read any good books lately?
Organization: Cognos Incorporated, Ottawa CANADA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:02:10 GMT

In article <MATT.92Apr7233115@physics.berkeley.edu> matt@physics.berkeley.edu writes:
>Well, I just finished reading one of Susan Dunlap's mystery novels:
>_Karma_.  It was reasonably good: both the crime, and the solution to
>it, were very believable.  (Besides, I think it's a good idea to
>support your local murders instead of always importing them from New
>York or London.)
>
>I've heard Dunlap compared to Sara Paretsky; unless _Karma_ is very
>atypical, I don't understand that comparison at all.  Just about the
>only similarity I can think of, in fact, is that both of them write
>about female detectives.

V.I. Warshawski is certainly more angry and politically aware than Jill
Smith, who treats it more as a job. I think Paretsky's books are better
because they transcend the genre more. Nevertheless, I enjoy Dunlap's
books; you might try _As a Favor_ or any of the Veejay Haskell books
(my favourites).

Alayne McGregor
From: msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Q about _Gravity's_Rainbow_
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:26:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: watserv1.1992Apr14.202616.14990
Organization: University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario


                                    Tuesday, the 14th of April, 1992

       [I wrote about a reservation I had with Joyce:]
                                                        I consider
       it a fair question to ask whether a certain sincerity about this
       last endeavour does not or should not motivate the very highest
       art.

       [Vance Maverick responded:]
   And I consider it a *strange* question (but then my metier is really
   music).  I could formulate a counterargument, to the effect that we
   are beings whose transactions with the world are carried out in and
   through language, and thus that the book which calls most subtly and
   thoroughly on our faculty of language is the richest and most sincere;
   but I'm not into arguments on the merits of genres or media.  However,
   I consider it a fair observation that Joyce felt _Ulysses_ made
   contact with things that actually were the case with the world in
   which he lived.

This last is also fair enough.

But saying what I meant by this sincerity is difficult for me. You noted
that a work may not buy into my categorization in terms of form and content.
I guess my problem with that is that I think the categorization transcends
the individual works it is meant to help analyze. It is just one categorization,
however. Perhaps form and content don't quite give me the dichotomy
I want. How about Apollonian and Dionysian (I am waxing too Paglia-tive here,
but it all really comes from Nietzsche and Frazer, so...)?
There's some sort of tension in art between rational creative control
and the chthonian soup. Even in music I would think there'd be
musical works which you would think are so much raw energy, others
which are too clever (or pretty) by half. The question I'm asking about
Joyce is whether any spiritous liquour from out of this primal soup
bubbles up in him. Joe says yes. I think Joyce is heavily Apollonian,
perhaps so much so as to be out of the balance that *I* might prefer.

                Mike Morris
        (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: pbr3u@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Philip Rose)
Subject: C.S. Lewis (was Re: ENGLISH AS SHE IS SPOKE
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 12:52:04 GMT

I am curious as to just what Francis Muir really knows about C.S. Lewis.

He served his country in two world wars (fighting in the first, in other
capacities in the second).

He was a man who gave away most of the money he earned from his books to 
individuals in need and to charities.

He was a man who silently helped others in need as ALL the biographies of him
attest.

He was a great scholar whose purely academic works (e.g. Oxford History of
the English  Language in the 16th Century) are considered classics and still
considered to be unsurpassed by many scholars.

He was a teacher to whom students flocked to hear speak at both Oxford and
Cambridge.

He carried on a voluminous correspondance with everyone from friends to 
crackpots as he believed it would be a sin not to try to help others in 
whatever way he could.

And of course he was a Chritian apologist and writer whose books continue
to sell and be read throughout the world.

And this is the man referred to as an asshole?  Such a comment says far more
about the person who made it than it does about its intended victim.

Philip Rose 
University of Virginia
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Q about _Gravity's_Rainbow_
Date: 15 Apr 1992 19:33:02 GMT
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu's message of Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:18:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.141802.3851@watserv1.waterloo.edu> msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris) writes:

				   Wednesday, the 15th of April, 1992

   Vance Maverick asks:
       Just out of curiosity, who is Dionysian, for you?

   OK, I guess in reading epics, which was the thing after Tolkien
   that first turned me on to reading good stuff, I'd call Homer
   perfectly balanced, Vergil, and indeed most later consciously artistic
   attempts at epic, Apollonian or even too Apollonian. I'd call the
   medieval infusion of blood from the folk epics---The Nibelungenlied,
   Roland, Beowulf---on the Dionysian side. Or, say, between
   Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides I'd call Aeschylus more Dionysian,
   Sophocles balanced, and Euripides more rationally controlled. I prefer
   Sophocles.

You consider Euripides' _Bacchae_ an Apollonian work?

-30-
Bob
From: sph0301@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu (Kate Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: read any good books lately?
Date: 8 Apr 1992 15:04:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Univ. of Texas School of Public Health

In article <1992Apr8.125817.11707@cs.cornell.edu> turney@cs.cornell.edu (Jenn Turney) writes:

>Recent reading: _Stones for Ibarra_, by Harriet Doerr, a lovely book,
>very poignant; 

There was a version of Stones for Ibarra on TV a few years ago (a
Hallmark Production, I believe) starring Glenn Close and Keith Caradine.
Worth watching if it's repeated someday...

kate
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Q about _Gravity's_Rainbow_
Organization: University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:18:02 GMT

                                Wednesday, the 15th of April, 1992

Vance Maverick asks:
    Just out of curiosity, who is Dionysian, for you?

OK, I guess in reading epics, which was the thing after Tolkien
that first turned me on to reading good stuff, I'd call Homer
perfectly balanced, Vergil, and indeed most later consciously artistic
attempts at epic, Apollonian or even too Apollonian. I'd call the
medieval infusion of blood from the folk epics---The Nibelungenlied,
Roland, Beowulf---on the Dionysian side. Or, say, between
Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides I'd call Aeschylus more Dionysian,
Sophocles balanced, and Euripides more rationally controlled. I prefer
Sophocles.

Dostoevsky overflows his banks.

In music it'd have to be Le Sacre for raw energy.

                   Mike Morris
            (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: jhitch@crash.cts.com (Jeffrey Hitchin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Martha Grimes
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:04:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: crash.1992Apr08.030443.24342
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

In a previous article, mfriley@wpi.wpi.edu said:
Another American member of the circle is Elizabeth George who now has out
4 or 5 books featuring Inspector Thomas Lynely and Sergeant Barbara Havers of
the Yard.   If you think Grimes was gory, try George!
--------

	Yes, but at least George can write!  Lately, Grimes has been
absolutely AWFUL:

	"The acetylene torches of his blue eyes were turned down a bit
by boredom." The Old Silent

	"A slow smile spread through his body." The Old Contemptibles 

	"She was suddenly grabbed from behind. Oh, shit, she thought,
to come all the way to England just to get raped." The Dirty Duck
(This character deserved to die, BTW. I felt like applauding her death.)

	"'Oh, my,' she bubbled lightly." The Old Contemptibles.

	You get the idea.  Ms. Grimes needs to find the difference
between wild metaphors and good writing.  Also her characters are
sometimes so unlikeable that I want to scream!  Of course, she
doesn't need to write well, she sells enough that people will buy
her crap no matter how bad it is.
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: REC.ARTS.BOOKS.TSR (was 'RFD: rec.arts.dragonlance')
Date: 9 Apr 92 12:16:48 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Apr8.191812.27775@umbc3.umbc.edu> cs201139@umbc5.umbc.edu  
(cs201139) writes:
> This is a better idea. That way it will deal with all books published  
by TSR
> so as to free up the rec.arts.books main sub which is always packed.  
This
> will also free up any stray posts over to rec.games.frp or  
rec.games.rpg.
> TSR makes other stuff than just dragonlance. They have a Forgotten  
Realms
> series and a new Dark Sun series and many other generic fantasy type  
novels.
> Don't want to leave anyone out!

As to whether it is a good idea--perhaps.  But why place in under
rec.arts.books rather than under rec.arts.sf, which is the 
hierarchy designed for fantasy and SF.  I think it would fit 
better there.  (Actually, I think rec.arts.books.sf would have
been better than rec.arts.sf.written, but since we have the
sf hierarchy it should be used for what it was intended for.)

--
Jim Mann                                       
jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com 
Stratus Computer
From: skitchen@pica.army.mil (D. Scott Kitchen (CCAC) <skitchen>)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: reading in bed
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:35:15 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: U.S. Army ARDEC, Dover NJ

In article <JMC.92Apr14183753@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>What is the most convenient arrangement people have found?
>What equipment is best?

Well, speaking from personal experience, I have my bedroom arranged to help
me read easily in bed.  At the foot of my bed is a lamp.  I like to lie on
my stomach with my feet toward the headboard with a couple of pillows
propped under my arms so my upper body is up a little bit.  I get plenty of
light from the lamp, and if I feel sleepy (or fall asleep, as sometimes
happens), my pillows are right there.

-- 
Scott Kitchen           | GM, Kitchen Sinkers       | ICBM: 40.88 N|
skitchen@pilot.njin.net | GM, Picatinny Mad Bombers |       74.56 W|
--------------------------------------------------------------------     
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: ???Behaviorist Brainwashing????
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:48:17 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <10389@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>Does the presence of NAMBLA in gay parades suggest anything to you?

It means about as much to me as the presence of gay groups in the New York
St. Patrick's Day parade does. If I'd followed your rule of inference, I'd
have been forced to conclude that all Irish are gay.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Anyone who has obeyed nature by transmitting a piece
mnemonic@eff.org | of gossip experiences the explosive relief that
(617) 864-0665   | accompanies the satisfying of a primary need."
EFF, Cambridge   |          --Primo Levi
From: n2412@cray.com (Joe Green)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Irrelevant _GR_ question
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:58:43 GMT
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article <73994@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <13APR199223495251@zeus.tamu.edu>, spb0457@zeus (SubGenius) writes:
>>seen any reference to it in anything about Soviet ethnic folklore.  [...]
>
>Before the 30s, there were two people in the area known as the Kirghiz
>and the Kara Kirghiz.  They were then renamed the Kazakh and the Kirghiz
>respectively.  Now what's interesting is that Kara XXX--I don't know
>which language it is--often gets translated as "Black XXX" for various
>Central Asian (sub)nationalities.
>
>So I conjecture the following paranoid, and hence plausible, fiction:
>there used to be three groups known as Kirghiz: the Kirghiz, the Black
>Kirghiz, and the White Kirghiz (aka the Kirghiz Light).  In the 30s, the
>Kirghiz became the Kazakhs and the Black Kirghiz became the Kirghiz, and
>the White Kirghiz disappeared.
>-- 
>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu)

Actually Kirghiz Light was the name of the beer Tom and I drank
when we went to baseball games with Salinger and Solzhenitzin.
Solly named it and its ingestion effected much raucous laughter
(tho Jerry told me he never got the jokes).



-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (roger.s.tait..jr)
Subject: Re: hist/disp on hol/Laura
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:01:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr02.180732.40731@cs.cmu.edu>, kji+@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU (Kathi Iannamico) writes:
> Sorry to destroy your little bboard world where all the rules are written
> in blood...but if the worst thing that ever happens to you is that you have 
> to read a 'misdirected' post, consider yourself lucky.  If you don't like it,
> don't finish reading it.  
> 
> And one other thing: you do not set the parameters for my posts, and you
> do not tell me what to do or what not to do.  

When I see an article in rec.arts.books, I expect it to have something,
even remotely, to do with books. Laura was not referring to _a_ misdirected
post. She was referring to a plethora of misdirected posts. Go 
learn some netiquette. 

Cheers,
Roger
-- 
-----------------
Roger Tait
att!homxc!roger
AT&T Bell Labs Publications Center      Holmdel, NJ
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gretzky@wam.umd.edu (Keith Robert Gretzky)
Subject: test
Originator: gretzky@rac2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Distribution: um
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:53:37 GMT

To win the Stanely Cup.

To keep Alissa from screwing up my account.

To become the "Renegade English Teacher".

"I have a meaningfully marked up _Moby-dick_.  What else does a suicde need?"
			--Christian Slater:  Heathers--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gere@umunhum.stanford.edu (Susan Gere)
Subject: Re: King Arthur, many versions
Summary: a new FAQ subject?
Organization: Stanford University, CSL
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 20:43:58 GMT


<bab2@rigel.uucp> and <gardiner@lib.uwo.ca> add to the list:
>
>>      Child of the Northern Spring - Persia Woolley (about Guinevere).
>There are two more books in this series:
>        Queen of the Summer Stars
>        Guinevere
>
>They follow Guinevere through her life (childhood, adulthood, old age)
>and are from her perspective.  I really liked them a lot.
>>

I found this series particularly ludicrous (the best parts being lifted
from Marion Zimmer Bradley). "I, Guinevere, Queen of Britain, came running
around the corner of the chicken coop..." - sheesh.

However, the aficionado should read them for completeness.

It seems to me this should be a FAQ, like the Holmes list.
--Is there a FAQ for this group (seriously, now) ?

I would be willing to compile the Arthurian list, though I have not
saved previous offerings and would need email reconstitutions.

 Munro <gere@umunhum.stanford.edu>       go ahead, deluge me...

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Subject: Re: Unbearable Lightness of Being (was Re: Q about _Gravity's_Rainbow_)
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:59:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.105720.774@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) writes:
>wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
>>Whatever else is in the book, I'm still unable to characterize the
>>book as "aloof".
>
>Read Chekhov's play, "The Cherry Orchard", or Dostoevsky's "The
>Idiot", and compare them with ULoB.

I've read and watched "The Cherry Orchard" (and works by other Russian
authors, though I'm not sure which you would give preference), but I'm
afraid that doesn't help much, as I understood and sympathized with
Chekhov's characters much less well than Kundera's.

>There is no contradiction between your identification and the
>aloofness of the character. However, the way you recognised some of
>the exolicitly expressed objects is a function of the way you are at
>the time. So your acceptance of the characters as presented, your
>readiness to believe the illusion, is indicative of something about
>you which may put you in one of the categories Kundera was using to
>classify character types. Did you find yourself in the novel?  If so,
>then well and good - you think like many a Westerner.

Yes, though not completely and not in any single character.  More
importantly, I sympathized with them, and knew them aside from the
novel.

It seems that this discussion is moving away from the aloofness of the
novel as a whole, though.

>The novel, for me, was an intellectual husk which could have been
>filled in by a writer with a particular sensibility.

It's also a good read.

>>It does indeed, in that it draws me in.  The structure did not,
>>however, become an object of interest to me until after my first
>>reading.  My first enjoyment of the book came from the characters
>>and situations.
>
>I propose that your enjoyment and your perception of structure are
>not as distinguishable as you believe they are.
>
>One perceives structure before one knows about it.

My enjoyment and my conscious perception of the structure were
distinct, though.  I don't pretend that I'm capable of reading the
novel in spite of its structure; but the structure did not become an
independent object of interest, capable of distracting or distancing
me from the novel, until after I had read the book, at which point it
was too late to push me away.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni)
Subject: Re: _Gravity's_Rainbow_
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:00:26 GMT

Tom Maddox writes:

         Leroy. writes:
                 It's important to have something to say when you write, 
                or so I say.

         Good principle.  Next time, put it into practice.
    

    He did, he said (in the self-same post you've quoted) "Pynchon is 
    pretentious, badly written and boring". This, to me, smacks very 
    much of having said something. 

    Nonetheless, Tom, I applaud your having managed an entire post without 
    the word "fuck" in it. 
    

--
                                                        vince@gda.cadence.com
    At first New Englanders may appear a bit stand-offish, but once you
    get to know them you'll realize that many of them are actually dead.
        - Dave Barry
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Moorcock's reference to Harlequin
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:30:47 GMT
Organization: New York University

mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:

>rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:

>> Commedia dell'arte was a form of theatre ...

  I never did.  That was M.H. Nadel.

BTW, thanks all of you for your help.  I have found a book on theater
history, and it has opened up a new world to my eyes.  I'm enjoying
finding new things out about old things.


--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mfriley@wpi.WPI.EDU (Margaret F Riley)
Subject: Re: Martha Grimes
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:41:12 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.042205.12837@qualcomm.com> rskirsky@athena.qualcomm.com (Ray Skirsky) writes:

>
>>>I have read two of Martha Grimes' books: the name of the first escapes me,
>>>and the second was "The Old Silent".  I agree wholeheartedly with your
>>>assessment.  I just finished my first P.D. James novel, "The Skull beneath
>>>Her Skin", and found it much the same way.  Is this obsession with the
>>>macabre, and gore an "English" thing?
>>
>>Oh, I think so, but only among the newer members of the British Women
>>Mystery Writers circle.   I believe Dame Agatha was never quite so vivid,
>>and my limited exposure to Ngaio Marsh hasn't shown me too much of this 
>>stuff.
>>
>
>In spite of her subject matter, isn't Martha Grimes from Maryland?
>

Yes, she is, but her subject matter causes me to identify her with this group.
Another American member of the circle is Elizabeth George who now has out
4 or 5 books featuring Inspector Thomas Lynely and Sergeant Barbara Havers of
the Yard.   If you think Grimes was gory, try George!

Margaret
mfriley@wpi.wpi.edu


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jordan@cs.tulane.edu (Misti Jordan)
Subject: Re: read any good books lately?
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-12784]: sparta
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:14:03 GMT


> > Read any good books lately?

Well, actually, I just finished reading the Stand by Stephen King...
I thought it was an awesome book, but I don't think I am supposed
to write the name "King" in either this newsgroup or in rec.horror...
he's too well known, so if the name is mentioned, it starts up too
many articles and people get upset and start flaming because 14 out
of 50 articles are about the same subject. If anyone wants my opinion,
I'll be happy to give it, but I don't want to offend anyone by expressing
an opinion they don't agree with or don't care about...

(Sorry, folks, I am just really ticked at the people who start screaming
"get your own newsgroup" every time more than 10 articles show up
about the same topic!)

Misti
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Q about _Gravity's_Rainbow_
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:31:15 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.174800.19856@infonode.ingr.com> palmerc@palmerc@abulafia.b21.ingr.com (Christopher M. Palmer) writes:

>All of this finally brings me back to Pynchon.  I have read Vineland
>and have attemped to read Gravity's Rainbow.  Evaluated in isolation,
>Vineland is an entertaining, but not very well written book.

Recently I participated in a project on the WELL to make a recording of
VINELAND for some blind WELL members. I discovered, while reading my
section out loud, how finely crafted the prose was, and how good Pynchon's
ear is. I would call this a well-written book.


--Mike


-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Anyone who has obeyed nature by transmitting a piece
mnemonic@eff.org | of gossip experiences the explosive relief that
(617) 864-0665   | accompanies the satisfying of a primary need."
EFF, Cambridge   |          --Primo Levi
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books