HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: astrolog@byron.u.washington.edu (Astrolog)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: * Astrolog birthchart program version 2.30 [Part 10/12] astrolog.dat
Summary: (Capricorn) Standard file of defaults - extract to "astrolog.dat"
Keywords: Astrolog 2.30
Date: 12 Sep 92 03:16:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

Astrolog 2.30 default parameter file.

DEFAULT TIME AND PLACE:
Time zone = 8
Longitude = 122.20
Latitude  = 47.36

DEFAULT VALUES:
No. Aspects  = 5
House system = 0

DEFAULT RESTRICTIONS:
Row 1: Planets; Row 2: Minor planets. =
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

DEFAULT ASPECT ORBS:
Row 1: Majors; Row 2: Minors; Row 3; Obscure. =
7 7 7 7 6
3 3 3 3 2 2
1 1 1 1 1 1 1

DEFAULT MAX PLANET ASPECT ORBS:
Row 1: Planets; Row 2: Minor planets. =
360 360 360 360 360 360 360 360 360 360
360 360 360 360 360 2   2   360 360 2

DEFAULT PLANET ASPECT ORB ADDITIONS:
Row 1: Planets; Row 2: Minor planets. =
1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

DEFAULT INFLUENCES:
In ruling sign   = 20
Exalted in sign  = 10
In ruling house  = 15
Exalted in house = 5
Row 1: Planets; Row 2: Minor planets; Row 3: Houses;
Row 4: Major aspects; Row 5: Minor aspects; Row 6; Obscure aspects. =
30 25 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
  5 5 5 5 5 5 5 15 20 5
20 0 0 10 0 0 5 0 0 15 0 0
1.0 0.8 0.8 0.6 0.6
  0.4 0.4 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.2
  0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1

EOF
From: dmm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (David Meleedy)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: daylight savings confusion  part 2
Date: 5 Sep 92 22:12:57 GMT
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA


I was told that I had not given complete enough information.. so here it goes...

I am a bit confused about how to figure out whether or not to add an hour
to my birth time due to daylight savings time.  So my question is two-fold.

1) How in general do you find this out?

2) Should I add 1 hour to my birth time?  My birth date is 21 Oct 1966?
I was born in Boston, MA. at 8:09 pm? So do I enter 20:09 or 21:09?

Thanx to all who respond!



-- 
=======
David Meleedy                           Smithonian Astrophysical Observatory
meleedy@cfa.harvard.edu                 60 Garden Street, MS 70
Phone: 617 495 7252                     Cambridge, MA  02138  USA
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Re: skeptics (yawn...)
Originator: usenet@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:55:50 GMT
Organization: AUS

In article <1992Sep15.2501.1857@dosgate>, "jim kane" <jim.kane@canrem.com> writes:
> 
>    BTW, would any astrologers here be interested in a discussion on.....
>    anything, lets say, the effect of Uranus & Neptune in Capricorn (
>    conjuncting my Sun/Midheaven) on society, or Pluto in Scorpio (hey!
>    some juicy material here) sextiling Uranus/Neptune.
> 
>    Please, some intelligent conversation!
> ---
>   SLMR 2.0  ..I couda had religion, but may baby woudnt let me pray..
> --
> Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario, Canadas
> World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
> 
> 

YES,YES,YES!

Did I get this straight? You have Uranus/Nep conj your MC, which your sun also conjuncts?

What's bringing all these Saturn people out of the woodwork? :-)

Sounds to me like you could be a nervous wreck walking around in a fog. (I'm sorry -
I'm delirious today). Actually, I'd like to know what you're feeling and doing.
Eventually I'm gonna have those little suckers opposed to my sun. Can't wait.

Stacey

Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: aloks@angelo.amd.com (Alok Singh)
Subject: Bus Error in astrolog2.3
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Santa Clara, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:36:34 GMT


I compiled and ran astrolog2.3 it gave me bus error
Can someone tell me what may be the problem.

Thanks.

Sequence follows:

% make
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  data.c
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  formulas.c
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  options.c
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  xcharts.c
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  graphics.c
cc -O  -target sun4 -c  driver.c
cc -o astrolog data.o formulas.o charts.o options.o xcharts.o graphics.o driver.o -lm -lX11
strip astrolog
% astrolog
Bus error (core dumped)

--
******************************************
ALOK SINGH
Sr. Desing Engineer
Advanced Micro Devices
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: kappa@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Glenn Capuano)
Subject: Re: Zodiac Constellations
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:54:59 GMT

: > 1) How do you claim to account for the fact that the sun spends 3 weeks in
: > the constellation of Ophiuchus each year, which is not considered by
: > astrologers, compared to just 8 days in Scorpius, which is? Does a person
: > born in the first 3 weeks of december not have a personality?
: 
: Because it is based on the seasons, not on arbitrary stellar assignments.

	Well why do the characteristics associated with a particular sign
come from the mythology associated with the constellation of the same
name? If astrology has nothing to do with arbitrary stellar configurations
why bother with constellations and signs at all? Why not just say a child
born in December has such and such a characteristic? Might make it sound
more credible...
: > 
: 
: Dunno why it works, but it does 
: 
	Well, I say "Prove it!"

: > 	As I'm sure you know, many skeptics groups have rewards offered
: > for correct predictions by astrologers. In particular, Australian Skeptics
: > offers $10,000 to any astrologer who can, given someone's date and time of
: > birth, and the dates and times of ten events in their life, state what
: > those events were. Until such time as this challenge is taken up, I remain
: > unconvinced.
: 
: First of all, nothing will convince a sceptic. Secondly an ethereal 'offer'
: of $10K is meaningless in this (or any) forum.

	Firstly, this is a common myth. if any astrologer could correctly
state, even in general terms, what those ten events were, it would go a
long way to convincing me. If he/she could do it consistently, I would be
convinced. Unfortunately no astrologer has even taken up the challenge as
yet!
	Secondly, it's not an "etheral offer". I can give you people to
call if you want to take up the offer, and it is in writing.

Regards,
	Glenn
From: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: SATURN
Date: 12 Sep 1992 15:56:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe) says:

>BTW, does anyone have Woody Allen's birthdata?  I wonder
>what's transiting his chart now.
>-- 

Best I can do for you is the date:   December 1, 1935
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From:  Walther@cancer.msk.su (Andrey D. Mikhailow)
Subject: To whom it may concern...
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:26:56 GMT
Reply-To: Walther@cancer.msk.su
Organization: Doctor Home
Keywords: Astrological Issue

Hi,
My friend Vladimir Gorbatow asked  me to deliver this message to
alt.astrology netters and personaly  to  astrologers addresses I
know. Original message bellow:

----------------------original message----------------------------

Dear sirs/madams.

Astrological  department  of  our  firm  "Flexis"  has pleasure in
offering You the mutual cooperation with your colleges in Russia.

We  are  going  to  publish  the  Special  Issue - "Modern Russian
Astrology" for foreign readers, in  English.  This project can  be
realized as a periodical edition further.

We gathered all the materials for the 1st and 2nd numbers -  there
are about  20 articles.  Researches and  practical experiences  of
our native astrologers. We have some pages of advertisements;  You
are welcome  with advertisements  - we  are planning  this edition
approximately for the end of 1992.

Our suggestions are:
1. To purchase the printing dummy of our Issue by your firm
(sale-and-purchase contract).
2. Collaboration in edition in common, or in complimentary parts
(joint venture).
3. To arrange the subscription among the members of your
organization (promotion and disposition).
4. Other forms of collaborations with mutual settlements
according to agreements.

Have You get any proposes or comments to make?

We would be glad to have any replays from You. If You consider our
contact going  to be  interesting, or  You have  any questions for
more detailed information,  don't hesitate to  contact us any  way
You like: by surface mail, FAX or E-mail...

Also  please  never  hesitate  to  contact  us to avoid delay in a
realization our, perhaps mutual, project.

        Sincerely yours:
        Vladimir Gorbatow, editor;
        Helen Gorbatova, secretary;
        Igor Kirillow, technical director.

        Phone: +7 (095) 976-62-49
        FAX  : +7 (095) 324-55-85
        Address: Timiryazevskaja 10/12-140,
                 Moscow, 125422, Russia

P.S.: Please if you can inform your collages in astrological
society about our suggestion.

-------------------end of original message------------------------
-- 
*  In Real Life: Andrey D. Mikhailow        *InterNET: Walther@doctor.msk.su *
*    Solar sign: Scorpio                    *          Walther@cancer.msk.su *
* Post:  Cancer Research Center of RAMS,    *   Voice:  +7 095 3241509       *
* Kashirskoe sh. 24, Moscow, 115478, Russia *     Fax:  +7 095 3235333       *

Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: lips@bernina.ethz.ch (Emil Lips)
Subject: >Transpluto info
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:55:07 GMT

 In article <12265.2a083f8e@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
 cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-st
 ate.edu writes:
 >
 >
 >I find all the names given to transplutonian planets to be very
 >interesting. This article uses Bacchus, and Maggie Mcpherson's
 >"Lessons" use Pan (are these used by other astrologers?).

 Hello Steve

 Yes, there is anotherone:

 Emil Lips (that's me :-) uses the same name Faunus (Pan) for
 transpluto. Faunus is the ruler of Taurus. There is another
 planet, Iustitia, which is supposed to be the ruler of Virgo.
 For closer reference order my book:

                "Neue Schule der Astrologie"
                    -Grundkurs    224 pages, paperback

 It's in german, so if this is not a problem for you, send
 me $10 (in an envelope) with your adress and I'll send you
 your copy.

 My adress:    Emil Lips
               Remensberg
            CH-9415  Wuppenau
               Switzerland
From: abadmota@paul.rutgers.edu (Soraya Abad Mota)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Famous writers birth data
Keywords: Anais Nin, Henry Miller
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:45:55 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Hi!
  I am looking for the complete birth data of Anais Nin and Henry
Miller. If you know it or know where I could find it please let
me know.

Thanks,
Soraya Abad-Mota (abadmota@paul.rutgers.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: kgroves@cix.compulink.co.uk (Kevin Groves)
Subject: No subject 
Reply-To: kgroves@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:44:00 +0000

Empty houses.

When doing a Natal chart, if the houses are empty does this mean that
the house/sign takes a background to what is given by the rest of the
chart?

Kev,
--
Kevin The Gerbil strikes again... :-)

*****************************
Date: Friday, 11 Sep 1992 20:56:28 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: psuedo-scientists, and censorers too! what great people.

i can't believe i actually got censored.  burn any good books lately?
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs birthdata?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:04:07 GMT

Thomas David Kehoe (kehoe@netcom.com) wrote:

: Can someone give me Steve Jobs' birthdata?  I'm reading his
: biography, and it says February 24, 1955, San Francisco,
: triple Pisces.  Astrolog says that the Moon left Pisces
: about 5:15 and Pisces rose about 6:45, so a triple Pisces
: looks impossible.
: 
: If I have time, I'll try to post an astro-biography of Jobs,
: his transits matched with important events.  I started doing
: this last winter with a biography of Hermann Goring.

Is there a connection between the two??? :) :) :)
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From:  sashazh@face.msk.su
Subject: DISSEMINATED SCLEROSIS
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 10:47:44 GMT
Reply-To: sashazh@face.msk.su
Organization: unknown

     This work is interesting for specialists  in  traditional
and untraditional  medicine  and so astrologists are occupated
on field of medical astrology.

==============================================================

THE METHODICAL DISCOVER GROUPS OF RISK  AND  SO  TREATMENT  OF
             PATIENTS WITH DISSEMINATED SCLEROSIS

                 Bobrov I.A., Mchitarian K.N.
                 sashazh@face.msk.su

     This work   contain   an   experiences  of  studying  ways
diagnostics and treatment of disseminated sclerosis.
     We'd had a group consist of four patients by disseminated
sclerosis where we used following methods:
     1). The astrological method. This method permit to separate
from natal  card  (horoscope)  of   patients   characteristic
astrology's signs of diseases.
     2). The method of informational  influence.  This  method
directed to  receive improvement for long time.  This one base
on special calculated combination,  consist  of  radiation  of
blood by   helium   neon   laser,   limited  plasmopheres  and
acupuncture influences on meridional system of  patients.  The
acupuncture influences  realized:  "extermination  a pathology
energy "fire" and "wind" from meridian of  liver  (F-meridian)
with consideration   of   secondary   energy   effects,  where
appearing in meridional system.  We  take  into  consideration,
that each kind of influences were form of energy. Accordingly,
we have considerated cycles combination of energy  and  cycles
movement of  Jupiter  Moon,  and  Moon's  knots.  We  have got
following results:
     1. We  have  discovered stable combinations in natal card
(horoscope), in  accordingly  with  X(2)-Pirson's   criterion,
which correlated with course of disease.  The defeat of Venus,
Neptun, and so Jupiter combining with strong position of Venus
to made   influence  on  IV,  VIII,  VI,  and  XII  fields  of
horoscope. These signs accompany on disease enough often.
     We have got:
     a) One patient have got complete clinic remission (period
of disease about 2 years).
     b) One  patient  have  got  stable   clinic   remission.
Paresis, hyperkinesis,   pathology   reflexes,   atacsia,   and
nystagmus were  disappeared.  (Period  of  disease  about   17
years.)
     c) Two patients have got a part of remission  (period  of
disease about  3  and  8 years).  Intention (dynamic) tremor,
paresis of eye's muscles were  decreased.  The  functions  of
pelvis organs were recovered.
     Detailed description of  methods  will  be  published  in
"Russian Astrological  Magazine",  or  may  be  send according
to individual inquiry.
-- 

Sincerely yours,      Alexander ZHUIKOV
                      sashazh@face.msk.su
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Zodiac Constellations
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:54:32 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <11SEP199216131511@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:

>Of course, why it is that the mythological meanings of the constellations
>seem to have been mysteriously projected on the signs' positions a few
>thousand years ago is still not clear...

Nothing mysterious about it. Astrology started out being concerned
with kings and nations. It later became popularised, with astrologers
offering horoscopes to individuals, marriages etc. The time at which
that happened is the time at which the constellations got named by the
zodiacal signs which happpened to co-incide with them at the time.
Since even today's well-educated :-) sceptics don't understand how the
seasons relate to the constellations, it was quite an understandable
error.

>>2) I noticed in the FAQ a lot of "science does not know everything, there
>>are more things in heaven and earth" sort of talk. This is true, but how
>>can you claim to know this privileged knowledge that even science can't
>>find? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to claim this.

So it would be if it was true. Fortunately there are plenty of
well-known things which science can't _yet_ explain, like
joint-popping, homosexuality, how languages are learnt, and how to
make good whisky, yet there is plenty of good old human expertise
doing well in these areas.
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Subject: Steve Jobs birthdata?
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 04:55:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Can someone give me Steve Jobs' birthdata?  I'm reading his
biography, and it says February 24, 1955, San Francisco,
triple Pisces.  Astrolog says that the Moon left Pisces
about 5:15 and Pisces rose about 6:45, so a triple Pisces
looks impossible.

If I have time, I'll try to post an astro-biography of Jobs,
his transits matched with important events.  I started doing
this last winter with a biography of Hermann Goring.
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: psuedo-scientists, and censorers too! what great people.
Organization: Not usually
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 20:37:23 GMT

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>i can't believe i actually got censored.  burn any good books lately?

Well, for a heckler, you're certainly succinct.
I got both twit notes, so I don't think you were censored.

A curious thing this newsgroup is, we sure get 'em here.
I wonder why people think astrology needs attacking.
If I were you, I'd go buy a piece of Weiser Press - been in the
Astrology section in your local well-stocked occult bookstore?

If it's good enough for Nancy Reagan, you're sure to like it.
Her problem was she was too much of a wimp to say anything in
public - denial wins again.

If she had 'come out', all the venom we get here - - maybe she was right.
Interesting, how social disapproval can prevent anything, like open minds.

As it turns out, it took about 1800 years, but now there are more of US
here than YOU, and if need be, I'll post a reminder on kill files.

Well, that's all for now. Better luck next lifetime. (tm)

-ecsd
From: rcleon@svbs01.bs.win.tue.nl (Leon Oninckx)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Chart Interpretation
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:49:07 GMT
Reply-To: rcleon@bs.win.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands

I know there's only a small chance when I ask this, but if I don't try
I will never know. Would someone be willing to do a chart interpretation
for me? I've just started reading and learning a bit about astrology
and I would like to learn and look how my own chart looks like and
how it's interpreted. If someone is willing please mail me at the
address below.
Thanks,
-Leon
email : rcleon@win.tue.nl
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Jon@newsbase.cs.yale.edu (Jon Rifkin)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Astrology Experiment
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:12:35 GMT
Organization: University of Connecticut Computing Center

Does anyone know if this experiment has ever been done?  Gather 20 
subjects (for example) and their birth charts.  Phase I: Let an 
astrologer pair them into 10 easily distinguishable pairs.  Say an 
outgoing Gemini with whatever in his/her chart with a staid Taurus.  
Let him choose the 10 best pairs he/she can.  Phase II: Then he sits down 
with each pair and tries to distinguish each pair on the basis of 
their charts.  When the astrologer meets the Gemini and Taurus 
above, he will not be told which person goes with which chart.  Its 
the astrologer's job to tell them apart.  

The chances of getting them all right for 10 pairs is 1 out of 
1024, 9 right is about 1/100, and I believe the astrolger must get 
at least 8 right to get 1/20 right, the "standard" significance 
level.

Jon   	
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: rdb@ktibv.uucp (The Graphical Gnome)
Subject: Re: I-CHING (Chinese Astrology)
Organization: KTI BV
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:11:09 GMT

stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin) writes:

>In article <1992Sep14.084525.20141@cs.uow.edu.au>, u8902989@cs.uow.edu.au (Chung Ming Liu) writes:
>> 
>> I'm doing this posting for my father, his has been researching in the chinese
>> astrology method of I-CHING for quite some time, and would like to know does
>> anyone out there share the same interest in I-CHING.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Chung Ming Liu (Samuel)
>> University of Wolllongong, Australia.
>> u8902989@cs.uow.edu.au
>> 
>> 
>>

I use the I-Ching if I have to do something i'm not sure how, when or
wether I should do it. So far it has been very helpfull.

I use it as an oracle and not as a astrology methode. I do not believe in
astrology. I do "believe" in the power of an oracle however.


Happy Hacking "PABRAS"
(aka The Graphical Gnome)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|                    |  sleep, I want to hear the    | Fax   :-31-79-513561 |
|                    |  scream of the butterfly."    | Mail  :              |
| "PABRAS"           |  J. Morrison          | ..!sun4nl.nluug.nl!ktibv!rdb |
| KTI bv             |-------------------------------| ---------------------|
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| 2700 AB Zoetermeer |   my life the way I want to."                        |
| The Netherlands    |   Jimi Hendrix                                       |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Re: I-CHING (Chinese Astrology)
Originator: usenet@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:12:17 GMT
Organization: AUS

In article <1992Sep14.084525.20141@cs.uow.edu.au>, u8902989@cs.uow.edu.au (Chung Ming Liu) writes:
> 
> I'm doing this posting for my father, his has been researching in the chinese
> astrology method of I-CHING for quite some time, and would like to know does
> anyone out there share the same interest in I-CHING.
> 
> 
> 
> Chung Ming Liu (Samuel)
> University of Wolllongong, Australia.
> u8902989@cs.uow.edu.au
> 
> 
>

I've never heard the I CHing referred to as astrology. I don't understand
how one could use it as astrology. As an oracle, yes.

I began using it at about 16 (long ago) and found it to be incredibly
responsive and helpful.

Stacey
 
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: I-CHING (Chinese Astrology)
Organization: TFS
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:26:28 GMT

 u8902989@cs.uow.edu.au (Chung Ming Liu) writes:
>I'm doing this posting for my father, his has been researching in the chinese
>astrology method of I-CHING for quite some time, and would like to know does
>anyone out there share the same interest in I-CHING.

I hang out with a rather extensive group of occultists, many of whom do.
I don't, personally.