>From: daveelsuc.WCP (David Sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.misc,rec.music.classical,misc.wanted
Subject: Re: What do I look for in a piano (summary)
Summary: LONG summary of responses to earlier posting
Keywords: piano
Date: 7 Jan 87 17:57:03 GMT
Organization: Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto
Posted: Wed Jan  7 12:57:03 1987

A while back I posted this:

> From: daveQlsuc.WCP (David Sherman)
> Newsgroups: net.wanted,net.music,net.music.classical
> Subject: What do I look for in a piano?
> Message-ID: <1344Qlsuc.W CP>
> Date: 3 Oct 86 16:59:47 GMT

> We've decided to buy a piano. I used to play a bit when I was a
> kld, and I'd like to play occasionally and give our kids a chance
> to learn piano.

Since this will be for relatively casual use, I don't think we want
to buy one new - they start at about $2,500 (Cdn) for the cheapest
ones. If we ever get more serious about piano, we can always buy a
decent new one then. Our local classified ads have lots of used piano.
in the $500-$900 range. (Uprights, of course.)

What do I look for?
1. Provided it sounds reasonably in tune to my (untrained) ear,
is it likely that any piano can be tuned once we get it home?
2. Pianos seem to last forever. Is "older" normally equated with
"worse" (worn out, out of tune, screwed up inside) or "better"
(worn in, better materials and workmanship in those days)?
Does brand name mean a lot on an older piano? Is an older
Heintzmann or Mason & Risch (I've seen these advertised -
I don't even know if they're particularly good names) likely
better than a newer Japanese piano?
Height adds depth to the tone. Is one typically better off with
an older 50" piano than a newer "apartment-size" one? (We have
a fairly large house, if that make any difference.)
What do I examine?  I know enough to look for broken keys and, 1
suppose, to open the top and check that all the strings are there
and not broken. And I'd play each key to make sure they all work
and sound approximately right. Beyond that, what?

I got a lot of helpful replies, and a number of people asked me
to post a summary. Here it is. What we ended up doing is at the
end of this article. (If you're in rn and get bored reading,
type   /What we did:     to skip to that point.)
This article is over 700 lines. I apologize for the size, but I've
edited out everything I can without losing content. I think what's
left provides a lot of useful knowledge. Thanks to all who contributed.



>From: utcs!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!daniel (Daniel Zlatin)

You ask what to look for in a (used) piano.  Especially in older pianos,
the thing to look for is the state of the sounding board and pin board
(I think that's what they're called).  The sounding board is the big,
heavy, wooden slab on the back of the piano -- it is very important
to the tone of the piano.  The pin board (or whatever it's called) is
sometimes part of the sounding board and sometimes separate.  It is the
piece of wood that all the pins for the strings go around.  In many
older pianos, these pieces of wood dry out, resulting in either a
split sounding board, and hence not as good tone, or variations in
tone depending on the volume, or loose tuning pins (VERY serious, as you'll
never be able to keep the piano in tune for any length of time
with loose pins).   Loose, by the way, is relative -- a grand, or even
presumably a large upright grand, has a total tension on the strings that
is somewhat amazing -- on the order of tons, being transmitted through the
pins and into the sounding board.  So small cracks around the tuning
pins can be really serious.

Other than that, check the feel of the notes individually.  If you haven't
played for a while, hunt down someone who plays regularly and ask them
to try out the prospective piano; ask them about the regulation of the
keyboard.  I only found out about regulation a while ago.  It is the
"feel" of the keys, as determined by the springs and various adjustments
It determines whether or not you can play the same note rapidly many
times in succession, and whether or not you can play a note with just
a very light touch as well as with a fairly heavy touch.

The basic difference between structural problems (pin board, etc.) and
movement problems (regulation, condition of the felts, condition of the
strings, etc.) is that you can do something about movement problems,
but you're stuck with structural ones.  Back in 1975 I bought a piano
for $200.  It was a mess -- broken ivories on the keys, missing strings,
rotten action.  I had a piano technician come in and give it a working
over -- for another $300, I had a reasonable piano.  After two years
of use, I sold it for what I had paid for it: $500.



>From: Steve Hayman <watmath!sahayman>

I'm in sort of a lucky position.  My grandparents had to move out
of their house into a nursing home, and they needed a place
to store their baby grand.  I just happened to have this
big empty space in my living room...

Anyway.  I would suggest looking at back issues of "Keyboard"
magazine, if you can find them in a library.  They have a column
which I think is called "The Piano Technician", written by
a professional piano technician, and he has written many
columns in the past year on what to look for when buying new or
used pianos.  Very interesting stuff, including how not to
get hosed by a piano salesman, differences between
upright/spinet/console pianos, etc.



Well, I looked through my back issues of Keyboard to see which
were the most appropriate - basically all occurrences of
"The Piano Technician" that I could find are worth reading!
Hope you can find it in your local library.



>From: harvard!husc4!stock (Marty Stock - former professional piano technician)

Although you say you are going to use the piano "casually", see if the
kids take to it, etc., I still would advise you to buy as good a piano
as you possibly can afford -- and that means at least $1300 (Cdn) I think.
It is discouraging to play on a poor instrument, so it defeats your
purpose if you try to start children on a bad piano.  Pianos don't
depreciate much, qo even if you bought a new Yamaha or Kawai, you could
recover most if not all of what you paid for it, in a year or so, if
you decide to sell it.

In brief, find a piano you like, then call a professional piano tuner/
technician to check it out for you.  This is analogous to bringing a
used car to your mechanic for his approval.  The technician can be
expected to charge his regular tuning fee for this service; it will
well be worth it, as he will look for many things that would be
arcane even for a pianist -- crown on the soundboard, downbearing,
tightness of the tuning pins, keybushing wear ... and can advice
whether cracks in the soundboard are acceptable (they usually are,
it's the loss of crown in the soundboard that indicates loss of
tone)  ... whether the hammers can stand being shaped and voiced...
things like that.  If the tuner is talkative, he will give you his
experieced advice while he inspects the piano. He (or She!) may
be able to recommend a modern guide for prospective piano owners.

If you don't know a pianist who could recommend a tuner/technician,
your best bet is to look in phone book for someone who is a
member of the Piano Technicians Guild.

Piano players, if they know how to REPAIR their own pianos, can
be helpful -- but really they often don't know enough about piano
technology to approve a purchase, beyond telling you their aesthetic
preference, or demonstrating an instrument's sound.



>From: pyramid!trwrb!desint!geoff (Geoff Kuenning)

A word of warning:  I take music and my (grand) piano *very* seriously.  So
you may want to tone down some of my opinions.



If you haven't already, wander down to your local library and look for
books on how to buy a piano.  You can also find them in music stores.
The first one I read was *ancient*, yet entirely applicable except for
the prices and the currency of brand names.

     Provided it sounds reasonably in tune to my (untrained) ear,
is it likely that any piano can be tuned once we get it home?


      It may have dropped in pitch, and your untrained ear won't
be able to detect it. It can be expensive or impossible to raise the
pitch of an old piano (and a clumsy tuner can literally break the piano
with the added tension of raising pitch).  In the second place, if the
piano has various sorts of minor problems (e.g., loose tuning pin), it
will require repairs (hopefully also minor) to make it tunable.  In the
third place, if the soundboard is cracked, the piano is essentially
hopeless (more on that later).

> 2. Pianos seem to last forever. Is "older" normally equated with
>    "worse" (worn out, out of tune, screwed up inside or "better"
>    (worn in, better materials and workmanship in those days)?

It depends on the maintenance a piano has received.  A really good
piano, properly maintained, neither improves nor disimproves with age.
The tone may change with age, but that could change things in either
direction.  But proper maintenance is *extremely* rare.  It includes regular
tuning, inspection and repair of the various parts, and periodic major
overhauls to deal with problems like the grooves you will see in old
hammers.  Some of that is pretty expensive compared to the price of a
used piano.

What is "regular" tuning?  It depends on the stability of the
environment, but I doubt that you can get away with less than twice a
year.  I currently have mine tuned every other month, and could do it
every month if I could afford it, but I live in a house that is a
disaster as a piano environment, and I'm also extremely sensitive to
tuning.

What you will often see is a piano that used to be kept tuned
regularly, until Susie went off to college.  But it seems like almost
nobody does things like "voice" or shape the hammers.  This might be
just as well, because it's a tricky job and an inexperienced technician
can ruin a piano.  But I've only had my instrument for three years, and
I'm going to have my hammers re-shaped (to take out the grooves) on the
guy's next visit.

How much does this cost?  One of the top tuners in LA charged me $75
per ordinary tuning.  I had to give up on him because he was unreliable;
my current guy isn't as good and only charges $55.  He's going to charge
a couple of hundred or so next time, when he does my hammers.

(A side note on tuning:  if the kids take lessons, be sure to keep it
in tune, so that they can develop a good pitch sense.  This is
especially important if the piano is used as an adjunct to learning
some other instruments.

As to materials and workmanship, pianos are still pretty much a
crafstman's field, except in the real cheapos.  About the only
difference is that older pianos may have ivory keys (probably chipped);
I have plastic now and think it's fine.

> 3. Does brand name mean a lot on an older piano?

Brand names mean a lot;  there were good and bad manufacturers.
unfortunately, I don't know of a way to get a useful list of
good and bad brands;  there were thousands.  One not-very-practical
hint is that a heavier (weight) piano is usually better, because the
cast-iron frame is both stronger and less resonant.  As to Japanese
pianos, my beloved instrument is a Kawai;  I chose it after careful
comparison to a Baldwin that cost 33% more.

> 4. Height adds depth to the tone. Is one typically better off with
>    an older 50" piano than a newer "apartment-size" one?

Unfortunately, tonal depth is not the only thing height adds.  
Putting it simply, the
bigger the instrument, the less you have to compromise to make things
fit.  If at all possible, you should avoid the "spinet" (apartment-size)
pianos with "drop" actions.  Not only are they sluggish and difficult
to play, but they are also much harder to repair (larger actlons come
out as a unit;  in a drop action you have to unhook each of the 88 keys
individually--and it's crowded in there).

A "console" piano (39 to 51 inches, 99-130 cm) has basically a shrunken
upright action, and is a much better deal for the pianist.  Even so, if
you have room for an upright, it has a better action still, as well as
the better tone you mentioned.  And uprights are actually cheaper
(at least around here), possibly because people find them ugly and
don't have the space for them.

> 5. What do I examine? I know enough to look for broken keys and, I
>    suppose, to open the top and check that all the strings are there
>    and not broken. And I'd play each key to make sure they all work
>    and sound approximately right. Beyond that, what?
I'd start by going to a piano store, even if you intend to buy from a
private party.  Make the salesman leave you alone.   (This is a really
neat trick, especially if you don't play very well anymore, because
piano salespeople are as high-pressure as you can get.)  Go to a bunch
of different pianos and play them a bit.  I frequently play nothing but
chords, mostly major and minor triads.  What you are trying to do is
learn to hear tonal differences among instruments.  You will be
surprised by the variety and by the magnitude of the difference.  You
may also personally discover some of the interesting defects that a
piano can have.

Once you can hear piano tones, you are ready to buy a piano that has a
tone you like.   (This is not as unreasonable as it sounds, as good tone
is tied to good quality for price/performance reasons).  As well as
checking for obviously broken keys, play every one and listen to the
sound.  If it's different from its neighbors, something is wrong.  The
tone should be a musical note, not tending toward a "thunk".  It
shouldn't waver in pitch, or rattle.  It should stop when you let go of
the key, not before or after (except in the high register).  Every key
should be tested for proper behahior both with and without each pedal.
The keys shouldn't be sticky, and should all return to the same level.

Play the keys again, rapidly, and see how they "feel".  If you aren't
too rusty, bring some music with you and play it, too.  Some pianos
have a noticeably lighter or easier action than others.  Others are
more precise (this is harder to tell, especially for a non-player).  I
think a light action is a good idea for children as well as adults.

When you look at the strings, also check for rust.  This can be hard in
an old piano that's dirty, but you may be able to see red marks on the
hammers.  Operate the damper pedal (right-hand one), and make sure that
all the dampers lift off the strings at once.  Look at the hammers and
the dampers:  they'll probably be grooved, but how much?  If too much,
it's a bad sign.

One disastrous problem that is nearly impossible to spot is a cracked
soundboard.  Sometimes it will make a key rattle, but others it won't
show up until a piano technician checks it out and tells you he can't
tune it.  If you are buying used from a store, get a guarantee that
will handle this by letting you return the piano.  If you can't exact a
similar agreement from a private party, it's probably worthwhile to pay
a technician to check it out before you commit.  He'll be able to spot
a lot more than a cracked sound board.  (Use somebody who's a
technician, not just a tuner--there's a difference similar to
optometrist/opthamologist.)

If possible, check the pitch against a tuning fork or even a pitch pipe.

If you buy from a store, watch out for the salesman.  You may find
their playing useful in evaluating piano tone, but remember that
they're hired partly because they can make any piano sound good.  They
usually work on commission, and they don't sell a piano every day, so
closing a deal is real important to them.  Don't let anybody rush you
into things.  It won't hurt the kids to wait a few more months to start
lessons.  You may be justifiably more eager;  in that case you might
consider starting out with a rental/option-to-buy arrangement.   (Those
have a lot of advantages anyway, though obviously you pay more total
dollars in the end).



>From: Richard Nishimura <utcsri!nish>

I also used to play the piano but haven't played for years.  I'm not an expert,
but thought I'd contribute by sharing from my parent's experience buying the
n'th hand piano I used to play.

>1. Provided it sounds reasonably in tune to my (untrained) ear,
>   is it likely that any piano can be tuned once we get it home?

    It is likely.  However, some piano's stay in tune longer than others, and
there may be other things wrong with it.  Ask when the piano was last tuned and
try judge whether you think its current tuning is good or awful.  The frequency
at which a piano needs tuning depends on many factors (mostly environmental) and
on the piano construction.  I'd worry if the piano was tuned only a few monthe.
ago but now sounds awful.  On the other hand, if the poor piano is in a room
subject to many temperature and humidity variations that may be understandable.
I say worry for two reasons.  First you don't want to call the tuner every few
monthes.  For casual playing, once a year should suffice.  Second, rapid
detuning may indicate other problems.

>2. Pianos seem to last forever. Is "older" normally equated with
>   "worse" (worn out, out of tune, screwed up inside) or "better"
>   (worn in, better materials and workmanship in those days)?

    While it would not be fair to say that older is better, older is often
better value.  You aren't looking at expensive pianos, so I would consider an
older one.  Many of the old pianos are n'th hand and the current owner bought
it for his kids to learn piano.  He has no real idea of its value, so he sells
it for what he thinks is fair considering how much he paid for it.  A new
piano, on the other hand has a more concrete value.  The owner knows what it
cost new.  In casual use, pianos do not wear out unless abused.  Old pianos
often have better materials and workmanship because a person made them, and
looked at what he made.  Machines in modern factories may be more precise but
they don't often don't notice their mistakes.
>3. Does brand name mean a lot on an older piano?

Piano makers earn their name from critical artists.  A piano that is bad,
gets bad comments.  I think that while many good pianos are produced by
unknown manufacturers, you are safer sticking with a big name.  Pianos
aren't like MacDonalds.  In the old days, before saturation advertising, a
piano earned its reputation.  I'm sure you can get a new Yamaha piano that
is technically better (and sounds better) than an old Heintzmann but you'll
pay.  For $800, you can't expect to get a very good (even third hand) modern
Japanese piano, but you can expect a great old Heintzmann.

>4. Height adds depth to the tone. Is one typically better off with
>   an older 50" piano than a newer "apartment-size" one?

If you have the space, I vote for the bigger one.  I've played a variety of
uprights, and I can say without any hesitation that I never heard an apartment
sized piano that sounded as good as a full sized upright.  Maybe things have
changed.  That was 15 years ago (when I played a lot), yet piano technology
changes slowly so I doubt it.

>5. What do I examine? ...

In addition, I'd make sure the pedals work.  For casual playing you'll probably
only use one of them (the one that sustains the notes), but the others should
work.  In case you are not aware, some pianos have 2 pedals and some 3.  You
always get the one you need for casual playing, and though I took lessons up to
Grade 8 Royal Conservatory (Grade 2 theory), I never did learn what the middle
pedal (the one that is missing from 2 pedal pianos) was for.

[note by DS - we found out, now that we have a piano. It sustains
 the lower 28 notes only.]

    Also look for signs of abuse.  If the piano was ever dropped its likely
junk.  A well maintained, well kept piano is more likely to be in good
condition, and will bring a better re-sale value.
    Inside, make sure the wood is solid (no cracks), and look for signs of
poor repairs.
    Finally, play it.  Thats the real test.  It'll point out things like
sticky keys (ones that don't pop back up or are slow coming up), clunky keys
(ones that go clunk when struck), creaky pedals (pedals often creak in
old piano's but you've gotta tolerate it so it better not be too bad).
Many of these things aren't obvious if you just plink a few keys.  Often
a few scales, and a couple of short peices will disclose them.  If you aren't
prepared to play (I'd be embarassed after all these years), maybe bring a friend
(or neighbors kid who plays piano) who'd play a few somethings and comment.

I'd stay clear of any piano used in a public place like a University
residence etc.  These are often abused.  I don't mean pianos used only for
practice by music students, just ones that any hack can go pound on.



>From: decvax!decwrl!sun!calma!summers (Summers)

We just went through the same process.  First, I'll answer your specific
queries, using the "notes" I collected (pun intended :-) on used pianos,
then I'll include our somewhat unconventional solution.

>    is it likely that any piano can be tuned once we get it home?

This is the annual ritual of owning a piano.  Certainly, any piano can
be tuned by a professional piano tuner (check the yellow pages).  This
can cost anywhere from $30 to $50 (US).  A piano usually has to be
retuned after it is moved, or if there are radical changes in temperature
or humidity.

> 2. Pianos seem to last forever. Is "older" normally equated with

Unlike stringed instruments (violin, viola, cello, etc), pianos do
NOT improve with age.  They deteriorate.  Mechanical parts wear out,
strings develop "flat spots" (imagine the work involved in restringing
an entire piano, all 88 keys, including double and triple strings!), tone
worsens.

Now this doesn't mean that a piano wears out in a few years.  I would be
a little suspicious of one over 40 years old, though.

> 3. Does brand name mean a lot on an older piano?

I'm not familiar with older makes, but the newer Japanese pianos are GOOD.
Several years ago, Yamaha was THE name.  They're still good, but they've
been upstaged by Kawai... You are correct though,
in that you can't touch a new one for under $3000 (US).





Our solution:

My wife and I decided that we'd like to learn to play.  She's had very little
exposure to classical music, I've had many years of violin lessons, and
am reasonably adept, musically.  We looked at various makes of new pianos,
and also at the new generation of ELECTRONIC pianos.  Our decision was
to purchase a Yamaha Clavinova electronic piano.  This was our reasoning:

It is smaller and MUCH lighter than a conventional piano (134 pounds),
but it has a full 88 key keyboard.  Space was a consideration, since
we live in a small house.
It would be a simple matter to carry it up any number of flights of stairs
It NEVER needs to be tuned, it never goes out of tune.   (This alone can
save a lot of money over a few years).
It has some magic electronic features: 3 piano voices (mellow, normal
and bright), tweak up/down tuning, and a really clever transposer
(if you can't sing that high, drop it a 3rd but play the same keys).
Most important:  It sounds and feels convincing.  It uses digital technology
to reproduce the the digitized waveforms of a 9 foot concert grand
piano.  It sounds better than any of the upright pianos we listened to.
Yamaha also did their homework on the keyboard.  It feels like a piano.
It has a MIDI port on the back, so you can hook it up to any other MIDI
compatible instrument, or computer (i.e. you can get a synthesizer box
to hook to it, and play harpsichord or pipe organ, or hook it to your
PC/MacIntosh/whatever, and let the computer serenade you). MIDI = Musical
Instrument Digital Interface, the de-facto industry standard.
Very important for practicing:  It has a headphone jack.

Well, as you can see, I was impressed.  I'm probably ranting a bit too much,
but we feel it is a formidable entry in the piano market.  Cost:  about $2000
(US).



>From: <mnetor!seismo!cmcl2!GIZ@PSUVM.BITNET> (Jeff Ganaposki)

If you are transient and expect to move in three to five years, look into
the new digital sampling pianos. No strain, no pain and sound great.

I have moved (Ugh!) my piano four times and swore
again. It's a full size upright with outrageous tone and scuzzy exterior.

If you aren't a Piano player already -  do not blow a wad on a piano that
will become a nuisance. Buy a 'toy'...learn to play, then get a baby grand
or whatever.



>From: Matt Fichtenbaum <mnetor!seismo'harvard!wjhl2!panda!genrad!mlf>

Find someone who plays piano and has some experience with several
different instruments.  Then take him along when you look.  That way,
you'll have someone knowledgeable to (a) identify good/bad qualities
of the instrument,  (b) ask the questions to show up possible "gotchas"
(c) play so you can hear the instrument from a listener's perspective.

Much better than going with only a checklist.  After all, if someone
told you to look for "balanced, even tone" or "clarity and brightness,"
would that mean enough to be helpful?  I think musical instruments need
a lot of subjective judgement.



>From: Mark LaCasse <ihnp4!randvax!lacasse>

My wife and I bought a used piano, and we like it very much.
It is a "studio" (about 48") by a Korean manufacturer.

We did a lot of research before hand.  There are two main goals:
    1 sounds good
    even action (each key responds equally, velocity -> volume,
    and with the same resistance to acceleration)

Old pianos often sound good, but it is a rare (and often rebuilt) one
that has an even action.  Most any new piano will have a pretty qood
action, but Korean, Japanease, US, and W.European ones tend to have better
actions than the cheaper imports from E.Europe and Communist China.
(FYI, the current new market in US is about 50% Korea, 35% Japan,
and 15% split between everyone else).

The big name in Korean is Len Chan (or ?something?-Chan anyway).
Most US chains remarket an unnamed Korean manufactured product
(e.g. Colten Pianos, USA).
I think the Korean models sound better (more base, richer sound) than
the Japanese.  The other countries of origin have a lot less unity
(some are "full", while some are "tinny").

The longer the strings, the more full the sound.  I personally would
avoid anything smaller than a "studio" (48"+), which is the largest
commonly sold upright.

BTW, electronic imitations aren't there yet, but they are a lot better
than only two years ago, and a lot smaller.



>From: ihnp4!sdcrdcf!psivax!csun!afcscjoe (Joe Givens)

I had a professor in my undergrad years who claimed that her
"perfect pitch" was actually 1/4 tone sharp because the family piano
she grew up with was out of tune in that way ...

Seriously, i don't think your kids will be marred or scarred for
life if your piano isn't ready to cut recordings for Deutsche
Grammaphone, but consider that any purchase can be regarded as an
investment AND in fact if you are into that type of thing
(investing/deducting on your tax return, etc.) you might consider
buying a really nice instrument--I knew a piano teacher who owned
and rented several instruments, and made some money off of them,
somehow...

[note by DS: since we're purchasing for our personal use, there's
no basis for any tax deduction for our piano.]

My best advice to you would be to flnd someone among your
acquaintances who does know something about pianos; even if you
don't want to burden them with the favor of going with you to check
out a user instrument, you could get them to recommend a reputable
piano technician to look at an instrument you are considering.  I
suggest this because there are *a lot* of less-than-reputable piano
"tuners" and "technicians" around, and unfortunately only a few
really fine craftsmen.  If you can't find out from your friends,
check your local university, or find out who cares for the pianos in
your local Memorial Hall, Convention Center, etc.



>From: seismo!uwvax!crys.wisc.edu!brewster (Greg Brewster)

Around 4 years ago I
was looking for a good INEXPENSIVE used piano and found an old full-size
upright made by Newby & Evans in the 1920's for $250.  Thls piano has
been terrific!!!  It holds a tune better, has better tone and action, and
is less sensitive to humidity changes than the new spinet which I played
during my childhood.  The guy who tunes it claims it is a much better piano
than most of the new pianos he tunes.  He says
1) Pianos were made better in the 1920s than any uprights or
        spinets today.
2) Full-size uprights are easier to tune, stay in tune better,
        and have better tone than spinets ("apartment-size--).

For your other questions, I don't know about brand names, 
but I had never heard of Newby & Evans before, and this is a FINE piano.  
I would assume that most pianos which are well in tune can 
be re-tuned as well after moving.

        What to examine?  As you said, play each key.  
Listen carefully for clicks.  Open it up and look inside just to see that 
everything looks OK (even without training you can check for wear & tear).  
Play some resounding chords and play all the notes fairly loud to 
listen for buzzing which could indicate soundboard cracks.

>From: watmath!ihnp4!amd!amdcad!1inda (Linda Seltzer)

If you find an old Everett, it's a Steinway.

Have a technician look at it.  But it may be above the $1000
range in price.  I wouldn't buy a new $2500 piano.  You could
look around in places like Ohio and Michigan and find an old
grand for the same price.



>From: ihnp4!houxf!vtv


>3. Does brand name mean a lot on an older piano?

A *well maintained* older piano of a reputable brand (e.g.
Steinway) does have its charm; also better material and workmanship.

Since you have a large house (vs. an apartment), I would recommend
a studio.  I don't like consoles and am absolutely turned off by
the tinny sound of most spinets.

>5. What do I examine?
    - it should be in tune when you test it.  To me, this means they
    at least went to the trouble of tuning it before trying to sell,
    even if it does not guarantee that the piano has been tuned
    regularly.
    - a cracked soundboard (stay away from these).
    - the felt on the hammers is evenly worn.



>From: Jean LaCasse <ihnp4!randvax!jean~rondo>

I wanted to add to my husband, Mark LaCasse's earlier message by saying
that before we bought our piano, I went to the local library and found a
book about how to buy a piano.  It had all sorts of interesting things
look for when buying a used piano (like peeking inside the case to see if
the  hammer felts had been eaten up by moths, etc.



>From: watmath!ihnp4!houxm!whuxl!lcuxlm!car (Chris Rath)

One thing to watch for is the quality of the wood case and
sound board.  Many old pianos have been left in rooms without
adequate humidity control.  Be sure to ask about the storage
of the wood and visually inspect the sound board.



>From: decvax!sun!jennifer!lyang (Larry Yang)

Tuning:  I don't remember if this was done when we got ours, but I piano MUST
be retuned after it is moved.  I *think* that the piano store that you buy it
from will offer delivery and tuning service to you.
Sound:  The main thing I'd advise here is just to listen to it and judge for
yourself.  It might be helpful to bring someone along who plays (I mean, really
plays) and play various types of music.  He/she would also help by having a
trained ear listening.
Listen for things like:  Do the low notes sound non-muffled?  By low notes
I mean the second fifth or so of keys, not the really low ones that no one
every really writes music for.  I've plaved on pianos where the low notes
are really muddy and too bassy.
Are the upper notes crisp and clear, or do they sound like your hitting a
xylophone?

Action:  Check out the action of the keys.  They should be relatively easy to
push, but not so that resting your hand on it well depress the key.  Try hitting
one key in rapid succession and seeing how fast you can get clear notes out.
Sometimes the key will feel like it's getting stuck; try to avoid pianos
that do this.  Also try trilling: alternating between two adjacent keys
in rapid succession.  This is an important feature if you plan on ever
playing fast music.

Overall:  And check for the obvious things; do ALL the keys play?  If you look
inside, you'll notice that some notes have three strings associated with them,
some have two, and the lowest ones have one.  Make sure that the pads are
striking ALL of the strings.  Also, make sure that ALL the keys play the same;
there's nothing worse than having to adjust your playing style depending on
where you're playing.
   Check the pedals.  They shouldn't make any weird noises,
such as squeaking.  I had a piano with squeaky pedals and it was REALLY
annoying.  Make sure that the pedals work; there are two important pedals.
The one on the right is the "sustenuto" (meaning 'sustained' in Italian, I
think) pedal, commonly (and incorrectly)
referred to as the "loud" pedal. Pushing this pedal down should make all the
'dampers', the black padded things that sit on a string until the key for that
string is pushed, are raised.  The effect of this pedal is to make the note
continue on after the key is released.  The other pedal is the left most one,
called the "una corda" (which means 'one note' , I think).  The effect of this
pedal is to shift the hammers (the things that strike the strings) so that fewer
strinqs are struck.  The effect of this pedal is to make the piano sound softer.
Sometimes when you push this pedal, the entire keyboard shifts a little.  This
is normal in the lower-cost pianos; this is how the engineers made the hammers
shift.  Check that this pedal really works.  Sometimes there is a third, middle
pedal.  Don't worry about this one too much; it is seldom used (thus it is
only found on some pianos!)

Other obvious things include checking the appearance, both inside and out.  My
father said that buying a piano is also buying a piece of furniture; thus,
make sure that it looks nice in you house.

Basically, I'd take someone along who has played for a while and has
an ear for what a piano should sound like.  It is important that you get a
piano that sounds good and plays well,especially if your children learn on
it; it wlll effect their playing in the future.



What we did: after visiting some piano stores and thinking about
it, we decided it was likely we'd want a good piano over the long
term. The way to find out was to rent one. we've rented a new
Baldwin (42.5-inch) on a 6-month plan that allows us full credit
for the rental and delivery costs against the purchase price if
we decide to keep the piano (or any other Baldwin).  We've had it
for two months now and are very happy; it's almost certain we'll keep it.
Renting allowed us to get a good piano into the house without having
to make the permanent decision.  And I'm satisfied from everything I've
seen and heard that Baldwin is a pretty good piano.

David Sherman