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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 03:03:47 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@MOT.COM>
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Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 22:13:11 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      "New Age" movements
X-cc:         78witherspoo@CUAVAX.DNET.CUA.EDU

Kerry writes:

 > New Age environmentalism proceeds...from the ideas that:
 > 1) the Earth is itself an organism, and our mother.

Tom Witherspoon replies:

 > Greenpeace, the major radical "new age" environmental group, does
 > not espouse this belief.
 > They are a scientific group, not a religious one.

Tom, I gather that you use "new age" to mean "recently organized" or
"nineties-style" or something of the sort. Most persons who use the
term, whether as friends or as foes, use it to mean a collection of
allied religious movements involving persons like Shirley MacLaine,
Edgar Cayce, ELizabeth Clare Prophet, Carlos Castenada, Werner
Erhardt, etc., and ideas like pantheism, reincarnation, channeling,
astrology, crystals, cosmic vibrations, secret wisdom of the East,
etc.

They would therefore say that if Greenpeace is not a religious group
(broadly defined) then it is not a New Age group as they use the
term.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Did JESUS respect beliefs?
Date: 13 Aug 92 03:04:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <CHRISTIA%92081207064451@ASUACAD.BITNET>, NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes) writes...
>Dear All ;
> 
>Some questions ... hopefully somewhat penetrating.
> 
>First, "Did Jesus respect other's beliefs in general?"

	I like the way that He approached the woman at the well in 
John 4. He acknowledged her beliefs, but led her gently to truth, and 
she, in turn, reached her whole village.

>Second, "Did Jesus respect Nicodaemus' beliefs when He told him '...and
>you are a teacher of Israel'?"

	There are at least two instances when Jesus respected 
what Nicodemus said. In John 3:3 and 5 Jesus says, "verily, verily,"
to something that Nicodemus said. Actually, Jesus said, "amen, amen."
It was always used as a sign of agreement with what had just been 
said.




 en agape,
 Bob
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (rl)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Jesus
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:55 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Lord Jesus,

    Thanks for being so patient with me, for so long, especially considering
all the pain I caused you.  May my I now be Thy.  Let me drink you like
water, quench my thirst.
    Remind me Lord, to see you at work everywhere at all times.  Not just for
my benefit, even though I know that is there too because of your grace, but so
I can participate in your work as you participated in Your Father's - our
Father's work... You know what I mean...so that others can come to you O Jewel.
    Keep my heart, keep my thoughts constantly turning towards you and transfor
m me.  I want to be thinking your thoughts.  Let me keep my face to the Wind,
and may He be my very breath.
    Thank you so much for Judea.  Let me serve her as you serve another
beautiful woman.  Unfold yourself in her even more... expand the boundries
of both of our heart (let it beat as one)... let us be your true reflections.
    Jesus... open our eyes to see you as you are.  And transform us with that
vision.
    Master...master us.  Let us be the white horse you ride.  Let us be the
boat you rest in.
    Bless, continue to bless, my brothers and sisters out there... We love
you so much... enable us to follow you....
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:28:51 EDT
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Homosexuality ad nauseam

    This debate is getting rather tedious and I would like to see it
discontinued. However, I feel that I must take issue with the statement
that every heterosexual is an ex-homosexual. Homosexuals have an
exclusive proclivity toward the same sex whereas children are pretty
much ambivalent until the onset of adolescence.
    Also, when I see a statement like "Most femininsts are heterosexual",
I'd like to see some hard statistics. Since to my knowledge there has
been no comprehensive polling of feminists on their sexual orientation,
I suspect that statements such as this are just smoke in an attempt
to bolster a shaky opinion. Perhaps there are reliable statistics
supporting such a statement but I won't believe it until I see them.
I aplogize for the tone of this posting but it appears that this topic
has gotten more than its fair share of air time. I doubt that anyone
will be swayed one way or the other by continuing this thread.
                                             In Christ,
                                             Claude Garner
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:01:52 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: RE:Judging others

Does anyone know why I have been receiving multiple copies
of everything posted today?  Sometimes as many as four?

Jason
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:59:35 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Raising a child for Christ

On 08/18/92 at 12:35:45 Matthias Will said:
>Dear Claus,

>I don't have any experience with raising kids, but my suggestion for you would
>be not to force your daughter to do things she doesn't want, unless it is
>harmful to her or others. In particular, I think she has to find out for
>herself
> what to think about christians, going to church etc., and I fear she might
>get
>a negative view of Christianity if she is forced to participate in Christian
>activities. I think the best thing you can do is pray for her and hope (and
>believe) that God may change her heart. I wouldn't go to church if I didn't
>feel
>a need to. OK, she's less than half my age, and I'm not an expert so in case
>this sounds like nonsense, forget it...

>Yours in Christ,
>Matt Will
God bless you Matt.( and welcome back!)  I was worried to obsession about
the safety of my son when he was little.  Then my sister told me that she
gave her children to God in prayer.  What better way to take care of them
than to give them to God.  Right now, there are 2 of her children that I
worry about and pray for but God will take care of them.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 78witherspoo@cua.edu
Subject: Re:      instructing teens and condems
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:54:45 GMT

In article <20AUG92.14557849.0013.MUSIC@FERRIS>,         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET> writes:
> I did this...counciled, etc.  My grandchild is due Nov. 4.
> My son is 20, I guess he was comfortable with what he was doing. :-)

-->  I am sorry to hear that.  I hope that your son will live up to the
	consequences of his actions.  He has made his choice. 

> Okay, enough from an old windbag.  Just how come things that used
> to be taboo are now okay?  

-->  Don't be silly!  As a young windbag, I find that the occasional release of
	opinions on an unsuspecting public is a good thing.  I guess that times
	change, what was taboo one day are commonplace the next.  I don't think
	this is a good or bad thing, but a part of life.
 
> Carol Nemec

Love and good walking,

Tom Witherspoon

78witherspoo@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu
From: willm@igd.fhg.de (Matt Will)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: correct email address
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:42:46 GMT
Organization: Zentrum fuer Graphische Datenverarbeitung, 6100 Darmstadt, Germany

Sorry to flood the net, but in my last posting, I forgot to change my header.
My correct email-address is:

willm@igd.fhg.de

(just in case anyone wants to mail anything to me personally!)

Yours sincerely,
Matt Will

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:01:45 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Southern US
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

Here's a story about Christianity in the Southern US that was related to me
recently:

A woman's brother-in-law [I think that was the connection] related this.
They moved to Atlanta recently.  Everywhere they go (supermarket, social
funtions, etc.), when they meet people, the people always ask them, "So where
do you go to church?"

It seems that they had a plumbing problem.  They called a plumber to come out
and work on it.  During the course of his work he asked them, "So where do you
go to church?"  They told him they didn't go to church.  For some reason the
job required him to leave, and come back at a later time to finish the job.
Apparently, when he found out that they didn't go to church, he never came back
to finish the job.

As my brother said, It's not a relationship, it's a social club.

You might be able to tell that my brother and I are somewhat cynical.  Growing
up in southern California, where going to church is NOT the thing to do,
we are kinda sensitive about this social christianity that exists in the South.

Mark Drake
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 06:07:13 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Is Aquinas or Bible absolute?

Dear All ;

Some have discussed Aquinas vs. the Scriptures, and etc.
The salient question is "What is Absolutely Authoritative ... Aquinas or the
Bible?"

The Word of God.
Only it is infallible.  Commentaries are not evil nor useless, however, they
must bow to the Authoritative criterion of Truth ... the Word of God.






Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 01:01:44 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:55:14 EST Kerry Stephenson said:
>Marty:
>
>When I asked about the local bishop, I guess what I'm asking is what
>the Church concludes generally about an apparition if it does not
>recognize it as genuine.  Does it assume that such things are demonic,
>delusional, or what?  Or is it a case-by-case thing?  Is there
>an official teaching on this?
>
>Just wondering.  Thanks.
>
>Love INC,
>         --Kerry

Kerry, So far as I know it's on a case by case basis.  As I said, over the
years there have been a lot of alleged private revelations that have been
rejected and forgotten, but that's over the years.  I suspect the question
comes up so infrequently that that there's been no need to formulate
anything more specific.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:41:50 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: History of Marian devotion (Re: Mary & colour blue)

>     In a discussion of Revelation 12, Brad Kaiser mentioned the identification
>of the woman with Mary as one interpretation of the passage.  I wondered
>whether Marian devotion is of sufficiently ancient origin that the author
>and audience of Revelation would have had Mary in mind.

I doubt that Mary is the person the author of Rev. had in mind, mostly
because they come together too close in history(Mary's life and the
writing of Rev.)

The symoblism of Rev. has a long history and tradition in the Jewish
community at the time of the writing of Rev.  I believe that in this
instance, the best case is for the Woman to represent Israel.  I believe
that this is also what most scholars with whom I am familiar support.

Jason
>Nancy Tinkham
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Wednesday, 12 Aug 1992 20:13:53 EDT
From: Peter Gogolek <GOGOLEKP@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Is Aquinas or Bible absolute?

In article <CHRISTIA%92081206343466@ASUACAD.BITNET>, NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse
Carnes) says:
>
>Dear All ;
>
>Some have discussed Aquinas vs. the Scriptures, and etc.
>The salient question is "What is Absolutely Authoritative ... Aquinas or the
>Bible?"
>
>The Word of God.
>Only it is infallible.  Commentaries are not evil nor useless, however, they
>must bow to the Authoritative criterion of Truth ... the Word of God.

   I think you are misunderstanding the various posts about Aquinas.
Some statements were made about St. Thomas that seemed contrary to
standard beliefs and written history.  They amounted to calling
Aquinas an intellectual craven and a lackey.  Up to this time I have
not seen any evidence to support those statements, though I have
received a note which included a reference to the controversies in which
St. Thomas was involved (for which I am very grateful).  The posts have
been defending the reputation of a great man, not trying to place his
word above Scripture.

   But there is evidently more to this thread.  The above posting seems
to imply that there are significant contradictions between the writings
of St. Thomas and Scripture and that a choice has to be made.  I would
like to know the nature of such contradictions, if such is the implication.
Furthermore, I would suggest that the commentaries of others on Scripture
are well worth reading and considering.  We do not approach Scripture with
a clear mind, we are conditioned by our times.  The writings of others can
help us better approach the timeless Truth, by showing us our conditioning
and their conditioning.  I also realize that many others have a better
understanding of Scripture and that I can benefit greatly from humble
study of their commentaries.  Study does not mean blind acceptance, but
neither does it mean blind rejection.  Humility is only the realization
of the FACT that there are many who are closer to the Lord from whom I
can and should learn.

Peter Gogolek
Kingston, Ontario, Canada
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:49:08 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request

Please pray for my mother.  They are taking her to the emergency room.  It
looks like it is a medication (potassium) problem but she is in quite a bit of
pain.

                                      Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:59:53 EDT
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From:         David White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it

Just a quick question, Marty.  You said that "anethema" means excommunicated.
Was there not a period of time in which if the RCC excommunicated someone they
could no longer receive Communion or receive absolution and thus since they
could not have their sins absolved they could not enter heaven?  I believe I
remember one pope doing this to the king of France thus placing all of his
subjects under the same penalty.  I believe this was the time of the Great
Schism.  Thanks for listening.

                              David
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:22:07 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Handling beggars

Chris Reed:

While, in terms of cash flow, I am hard put to think of people less
fortunate than myself (I spent all day today trying to talk utility
companies out of taking away my stuff and waiting until September
15 when I get paid,) I have to admit that, when approached, if I
have something, I give it.  Here's an example:

One day I went to the grocery store, which is next to the bus station.
While waiting for a cab, I was approached by a woman with a little girl,
who asked if I had any change so that she could get some dinner for them
tonight.  I looked in my wallet, knowing what I had *should* be used to
get me through another week.  I gave her a $20 bill.  And I said, "I am
handing this to you, but I want you to know that I am not giving it to
you.  Jesus is giving it to you, because he has been generous enough
to me to allow me to bring it to you."  Tears came into her eyes,
and she said, very softly, "The Lord is truly good to us, isn't he?"
I said, "Yes, He is.  Don't forget to thank Him.  Have a nice dinner."
Then my cab came.

I don't know what she used the money for, but when I came home, I discovered
that my tax check had come:  $25.12

As you have freely recieved, freely give.  He is faithful always to provide
for us, as we are faithful to provide for others.

Love INC,
         ---Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:40:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Reply to Brad's open letter.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Sorry about the uppercase post.  Blindness has its drawbacks once in
awhile.

Brad asked a public reply from me, so here it is.  I guess this is where the
rubber meets the road.

Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Moselms do not claim to be followers of Jesus
Christ.  The Roman Catholic church, however, does.  This is why I spoke so
firmly against the visions of Cynthia Cain.  Her visions contradict the
gospel, yet are either explicitly or tacitly endorsed by the Catholic
church.

I would be the first to agree that there is much good in the Roman Catholic
Church, and many wonderful, saintly, saved individual Catholics.  This does
not at all interfere with the plain fact that a good deal of Catholic
theology and the Gospel are at diametrical odds.  There is not room here
for two opinions, either Mary is to be worshipped, or she is not.  Either
the Pope is God's representative here on earth, or he is not.  Either men
are to con fess to earthly priests, or they are not.  It cannot be both
ways.

I said it was sacrilege to call the Pope Jesus' representative on earth.  I
must stand by that.  Jesus did not leave representatives save for the
Comforter.  His apostles were not His representatives, just His messengers.
 Peter was not the first Pope, the "upon this rock" statement was not in
any way refering to Peter.  As I said, this issue is either one way or the
other, not both.  My salvation is all sufficient in Christ.  I cannot
look to, a pope, priest or virgin Mary.  as a spiritual intermediary
between me and Jesus.

If Cindy Cain's supposed message from Jesus is genuinely from Him, then I
am headed for a very hot portion of hell, for I reject it categorically and
completely.  I reject her as receiving true messages from God in any way.
She may well be receiving false messages from God intended to deceive those
who will not read and believe the scripture for themselves.

I do not want this to devolve into carping between Catholics and non
Catholics, so I'll probably make no more public comments on this right
away.

Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:50:36 EDT
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      We Need to Pray

    There is a heart-rending story on the front page of the New York
Times today about a young Somalian boy (age 14) who is just barely
clinging to life. The story tells of relief efforts that are hampered
by bureaucratic red tape and looting of food supplies. It is an account
of a tragedy that makes all of my problems pale by comparison. It tells
of children dying in rags and tatters and being buried in biscuit boxes.
     The relief effort is also being hampered by unseasonably cool
weather in the 50 degree fahrenheit range. We need to pray that the
relief effort will be able to proceed unhampered by weather or
government. The suffering that these people are experiencing is almost
beyond imagination.
                                               In Christ,
                                               Claude Garner
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:33:00 CST
From:         "Truth is creative,
              transforming & alive...CP..." <MUELLERPA@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      Friend needs advice/prayer
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU

  Hello all,

       This is a request for advice from anyone who may be able to
   help.  A female friend of mine has a husband who is deeply involved
   in pornography.  He has a  chest full of movies,magazines, & books.
   He leaves magazines in her drawers and the like, all the while she
   is trying to stay patient over the whole issue.  She is praying for
   the Lord to open his eyes to see that what he is doing is wrong.  She
   tries not to be critical but sometimes it gets very hard for her. They
   have been married for about a year and she knew nothing about this total
   addiction to pornography, except for a little about some magazines.
   I have given her a tape recording of a series that Dr. Dobson of Focus
   on the Family did with a panel of experts & ex-pornography people.  I
   have run out of things to try besides prayer which needs to keep flowing
   from me and her & you, if you feel moved to pray. I know that prayer works
   & I believe that it would also help in this situation.  This is
   about all that needs to be said for now on the subject except that
   she has said she is about at her breaking point, which means she is
   ready to walk.  Any comments/advice would be very much appreciated.  I
   will try to get her to answer some of the responses personally & post
   them here.

          In Christ's Love,

             Paul              +  Rom. 8:28

Bitnet:   muellerpa@sluvca
Internet: muellerpa@sluvca.slu.edu
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