From: detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu (David De Trolio)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Followup "Intimidation, looting and arson"
Date: 13 Aug 92 03:38:38 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Re: Gavin Tredoux's "Intimidation, looting & arson"

henk@fudd.frcs.alt.za (Henk Coetzee) writes:

>In article <Aug.7.01.02.07.1992.12223@andromeda.rutgers.edu> detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu writes:

>>>Three days of "mass action", a campaign sponsored by the ANC
>>>and allies, have just passed. 
>>
>>There was some mention of this on American television.  So much
>>for bringing down the govt.

>That wasn't the idea of the Mass Action Campaign. It was rather aimed
>at: 1. pressurising the government back into negotiation, after the
>negotiations reached a deadlock over the government's insistence
>that CODESA, a body which cannot be said to represent the
>South African people, but only the major and some minor political
>players, draft an interim constitution.

As usual, the coverage of South African events is flawed here in
the USA.  Not unusual, but I am sure the ANC would not have minded a
bit if the country suffered some severe political damage as a result of
the mass action.  Drafting a fair constitution the needs of the minority
as well as the majority is no small task, and cannot be rushed into
existence by any party involved in CODESA.

>>>This campaign included a work stayaway
>>>and various marches and building occupations.
>>
>>Who did it hurt?  Who lost wages and may even lose their positions?

>Most employers adopted a no work, no pay, no penalty policy, so workers
>are not losing their positions en masse. Most of those who lost pay
>did so knowingly, and out of support for the campaign. (This was
>reported by a black reporter from the Pretoria News to be the case
>in Soshanguve at least)

Are SA companies going to be so understanding if there are anymore
mass actions?  Is this what investors can expect of the workforce in
the future SA?  It would not work in the states here.

>>>Widespread violence accompanied the campaign. Scores of
>>>deaths, looting, arson, erection of burning barricades,
>>>and vandalism of public property. Large scale intimidation
>>>was reported. Unrest figures reflect dramatic increases,
>>>and most major newspapers carried dramatic pictures
>>>of barricades, burning tyres and other obstacles.
>>
>>This is EXACTLY what is being shown around the world.  No speeches
>>proclaiming a New South Africa, no plans for a new round of talks,
>>nothing.  Dead township citizens killed by other township citizens is
>>the image we see.

>Whoa. The dead township citizens seen all over the world's media were
>killed by police, in what sounded like a criminally motivated
>ambush on the police, not an ANC organised stayaway. The largest
>single violent incident of the week was an organised massacre
>in Natal, which has all the marks of another part of the ANC-
>Inkatha war which has been raging there for years, again not
>a part of the Mass Action.

Who is responsible for township violence?  The SAP are not
responsible for every death in the townships, and if nobody
cooperates with the police, can they find and arrest whomever
is promoting the violence.  I do not think anyone is going to be
able to answer this problem for some time.  The hatred between the
various black factions in SA remind me often of Northern Ireland.
Black on black violence has to be addressed and dealt with by both
the SA govt. and the leaders in the communities NOW.

>>Can somebody explain to me who appointed the ANC and Nelson Mandela
>>to be the future for South Africa.  A violent organization which is
>>still advocating communist and socialist ideologies cannot and should
>>not be taken seriously.

>Nobody appointed them. It just seems that they have the support of
>the majority of South Africans. This shouldn't be too difficult
>to understand out there in the "Land of the Free" where you live.

The majority of United States citizens do not even vote.  The same
circle/ideological group of individuals and families have been the
leaders in American politics since the 1900's.  As far as the land
of the free, I am glad we are known for something positive.  If it
will be the same if we are dumb enought to elect Bill Clinton the
next President is another story.

As for the support of the majority for the ANC, I would like to see
a head count.  How many support the ANC out of fear, or without
understanding the nature of the flawed ANC policies and ideology.

>Unfortunately, the majority of South Africans don't have the vote 
>(you know, like you people do every four years), so the only
>way they can express their political feelings is by standing
>up and being counted.

I think there will be a few more minority votes before the
majority jumps in.  The right is been too quiet, too quiet.
BTW, if you think just by possessing the power of the vote you
can change your country overnight, than I think you should be
re-reading your political science manuals.  If it was all that
simple, we Americans would not still be stumbling all over
ourselves.

>The ANC is not dogmatically advocating Eastern European Stalinism,
>as you and so many seem to think that they are. They are however
>looking for an economic system which will help redress the wrongs
>of the past, a pat which denied access to land and the economy to 
>the majority.

It is not socialism, nationalism, or communism.  Try our free
market economy, it works despite what you may have heard.  I think
we here in the USA receive more bad press than anyone else.  Often
we are entitled to it. Outside of a free market economy, what else
would you (or could you) choose?
>>
>>Everytime I see someone carrying a sign, stating something to the
>>effect, "Jobs for all, forward to socialism", I think how badly
>>misguided so many in such a beautiful land are.
>>Look at Angola, Zimbabwie, and other African countries.  There is so
>>much potential in Southern Africa, but it is being destroyed by men
>>and women following concepts and ideals long declared dead and buried
>>throughout the world.
>>
>Oh. I see all around me the signs of imperialism and the damage done
>by neo-colonialism. If these have been declared dead and buried 
>throughout the world, why are they still hitting us here.

What I am trying to indicate is do not take the easy road which
the above mentioned countries have tried.  SA is the most
successful country in all of Africa.  Find a system that works for
all of SA. Ten years later, does Zimbabwie present you a model you
would like to follow?

>>Enough of useless mass action. The world is not focused on South Africa
>>now, there are to many other places where the citizens are killing each
>>other off in large numbers.  Point the ANC and every party involved back
>>to the table and TALK.

>Which is exactly why there was mass action, and what it appears to have
>achieved. A week of action by the ANC and its allies have changed the
>political tone back to one of reconciliation and negotiation.

Let us see them at the table talking first.  Reconciliation comes from
all sides and all parties.  Let us be honest also, memories of past
actions fade fast.

>>You are not going to have a new government today, tomorrow, or the next
>>day.  

>No, try November.

Very optimistic, but I cannot agree.  We have our own election in
November.  We are crossing every body part we can here.  Again, you
still have forgotten the too quiet right-wing.

>>It takes time, and you have to much to lose by doing it wrong.

>Oh yes, I almost forgot. We will lose our present government of
>corrupt ministers who, according to this week's press, were
>involved in the murder of activists in the mid 80s.

I have only heard a little about this, so no comment is the
best for now.

>>How many reading recall Rhodesia in the 1970's?  Is this the future for
>>SA?

>I don't think so. For one thing, we are getting rid of white minority rule.

Can it be accomplished without a civil war?  Can you avoid internal
fighting similar to what is occuring in the former Eastern Bloc?
Can you convince the skilled to stay in SA and share their knowledge?
There is a great deal to consider, I for one am curious how it is all
going to end.


-- 
David De Trolio - (detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu)
__________________________________________________

"We're sailing on the wind of better days"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african