HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CP6uH@plains.NoDak.edu (CP6uH)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: USA - Croatia  103: 70
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:58:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.19395
Organization: University of North Dakota at Grand Forks

In article <Bs2q1B.6u8@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>Does anyone know how many Croatian Serbs on are the Croatian basketball
>team?
>
>Joe Blazic

Hm. I think that Drazen&Aleksandar Petrovic and Tony Kukoc have some Serbian
blood though I am not sure. Anyway, does anyone have a complete list of the
players for Croatia?

Nik
P.S. actually there are no Croats on the Croatian team - they are either
Serbs or Dalmatians ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
--
From: s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Petar Kozul)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Pivaj (pjevaj) GANGE..............
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:00:17 GMT

Dobar Dan,
	I was curious to know more about the famous "Hercegovinian Gange". 
If there is anyone out there who knows about the origins or other information
about this "Tarzan-like" call of the wild, could they please reply. I've 
noticed that in many new songs emerging from Croatia and BiH include Gange,
my favourite being Djuka Caic's "Majko Hercegovino" whose chorus includes
Gange, in Djuka's words he calls it "Ganga-Rock".

Bog.	Petar.
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Slepati
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:16:22 GMT

In article <22JUL92.25218361.0050@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA> writes:
>                               v
>We (in Sarajevo) use the verb "slepati" to describe the action of
>attempting to "score" with a person of the opposite sex:
> v
>"Slepao sam joj se cijelu noc, pa opet nista!"  :-) :-) :-) :-)
>
><sigh!> those were the days...

And what do you use to describe the action of attempting to
"score" with a person of the same sex?  :-)
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: USA - Croatia  103: 70
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:20:52 GMT

The US has won the basketball game against Croatia by
103:70     ( not bad, all things considered :-)

-- G.B.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Serbian language
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:50:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.040950.15849@athena.mit.edu> dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:
>
>>I don't think you can draw a line in the sand and say: "OK, people
>>on this side speak this and people on the other speak that!" ;-)
>>You might think I'm oversimplyfing, but that is how I understood
>>your sentence.
>
>A language should have a single literary form to avoid confusion.
>When you create a language with two alphabets, two spellings, etc.
>there is something wrong with it.

The two alphabets were not "created" just like that. Originally,
all south Slavs used the Cyrillic alphabet (including Croats), but
over the centuries, Western influence introduced the Roman alplhabet
which has spread from west to east. Now, Croats use only the Roman
alphabet, whereas Serbs use both. I don't see anything wrong with
that. I suppose it does create some confusion for people who are
generally ignorant of the culture of the whole region, but that's
their problem.
The Sarajevo daily "Oslobodjenje" has (had?) one page written in the
Roman alphabet, the next page in Cyrillic, and so on...
When I would read it, I would automatically "switch" between the two
not even knowing it... A friend of mine from London (he's English)
was amazed at seeing that. He thought it was Russian! :-)

>>
>>> As far as Monte Negro goes, it is
>>>a whole new dispute how much Serbian Monte-Negrians really are :-)
>>>
>>
>>Yes, it is a whole new dispute, but I wasn't talking about their
>>nationality, but the fact that they speak the Serbian language,
>>which is in the "ije" form.
>>
>Well, if they are not Serbian, why do you call the language they
>speak Serbian when it even doesn't sound like it?  Curious question :-)

Why not? The Irish speak English, but they are not English because of
it! Try telling an Irishman that he is English and watch the
response :-)
And if it's not Serbian, what is it? Croatian? Montenegrian(!?)

>
>I am not trying to tell you that you speak either Serbian or Croatian.
>You can speak the mixture of the two.  But Croats speak Croatian, so
>why should they call it Serbian?  I respect your right to talk whichever
>language you want, and call it whatever you fit, and I expect you too
>to respect my right to speak the language that is by no means Serbian,
>and call it by a name that desn't have to assocate it with Serbian.
>

Of course! Bien sur! Naravno! HAPABHO!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: Serbian language
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:44:24 GMT

In article <21JUL92.21335755.0053@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> K2GT@UNB.CA (George Bogavac) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.201424.12272@talon.ucs.orst.edu> neven@orca.ECE.ORST.EDU (Neven Orhanovic;737-3448;;757-1803;halibut) writes:
>>In article <21JUL92.12161453.0212@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> K2GT@UNB.CA (George Bogavac) writes:
>>>
>>>The language spoken in the majority of ex-YU republics (Croatia,
>>>Bosnia-Herzegovina,Montenegro & Serbia ) is essentially the same
>>>language, meaning that people from these republics can communicate
>>>without any problems. There are different dialects, and some
>>>differences in vocabulary, but again, these differences are minor.
>>>The grammar (including spelling) is the same.
>>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>This is not true. Please have a look at the Croatian orthography
>>(Babic, Finka, et al.) originally published in 1971 but banned
>>during communist rule. (It was carefully written (watered down)
>>not to offend Serbian "friends", but was still banned.)
>>It will dispute your claims.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, I don't have the book in question, but I would
>appreciate if you could post some examples on gramatical differences
>and spelling differences. By spelling differences I mean an example
>where the Croatian language doesn't follow the rule: "Pisi kao sto
>govoris..." (something like that :-).

Here you just mentioned one of the differences between Serbian and
Croatian.  The Serbian rule, write as you read, does not apply to
Croatian in general.  For words with Croatian origin, they are spelled
phonetically, but foreign words are not changed as in Serbian.  So
shema si spelled just like that, and Bush is Bush, and friend is
friend.  In serbian, even foreign words are spelled phonetically, so
Woshington becomes Vasington, etc.  This is because of the
incompatible alphabets I guess.

If you want some generic words that are spelled differently, I'm
sure you can make a huge list yurself.

	mleko - mlijeko
	belo - bijelo
	etc, etc.

I assumed that you are not trying to claim that all phonetic languages
are actually the same language, so I won't go into further detail :-)

>I must admit that I have never come across any gramatical differences
>even though I read a lot of Croatian books/magazines, including
>the newly published ones...

Gramaticall difference is something like the use gerund here in English.
In Serbian one says:

		Hocu da idem kuci.

While in Croatian one says:

		Hocu ici kuci.

Croatian usually uses infinitive where Serbian uses gerund.  I'm not
sure if this really is called gerund or what, but you must see the
difference.

>Note that I'm not talking about differences in vocabulary.

Vocabulary is notably different.  Even without all the Croatian words
banned durig the communist rule.

>
>>Regards,
>>Neven
>
>Regards,
>George Bogavac.
>
>P.S.
>
>*** I CAN'T BELEIVE THAT THERE IS FINALLY A DISCUSSION ABOUT  ***
>*** CULTURE ON S.C.Y. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ***

It's quite refreshing, isn't it.

				Regards,
				--- Davor
From: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Subject: RE: Ethnic loyalty and politics
Reply-To: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 11:57:31 GMT

In article <30JUL92.22934847.0039@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA> writes:
> In article <Bs801D.L54@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
> >In article <30JUL92.12919745.0098@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA> writes:

> >>A similar case exists in Croatia, where the head of the commitee
> >>for relations between nations (something like that) is a Serb
> >>who is also the head of the "Serbian Peoples Party of Croatia"
> >>( whose name, again I don't remember, probbably because he is
> >>so insignificant ). This man was neither elected by Serbs
> >>nor does he have their support. He is merely a pawn used by
> >>Tudjman's government to parade in front of foreigners.
> >
> >If he was a pawn, then he would likely shut up about abuses against
> >Serbs in Croatia; but he has not.  I think we're talking about the same
> >person.
> >
> 
> I'm talking about Milan Djukic. He is the president of a party
> called "Srpska Narodna Stranka Hrvatske" or something like that.
> According to the articles I've read over the months (Croatian
> and Serbian) that party has about 10 members :-) I also understand
> that he was paid dearly for his "services". I think you are
> reffering to Milorad Pupovac. He is being hunted down by Vladimir
> Seks, Croatia's attorney general. See the Globe & Mail article
> that I've posted earlier today.

No, George I think you're wrong. Milan Djukic has criticized the 
current Croatian government often and sharply the last weeks. I think
it is Milan Djukic Joe is thinking about. I of course don't know if he
is payed or not by FT but according to what he states in public and
sending letters to HW and AI he is a lousy investment. He is NOT elected
by the Serbs, but he runs a party (SNS) and for that you don't have to
be elected !! That is what he's trying to become. 

Just to fresh your memory up, you have surely seen the statement that
"if Croatia keeps its anti-Serb politics it will chase away all Serbs to
Krajina" (something like that). I will not include articles here but I 
refer to Slobodna Dalmacija and Vecernji list (this weeks editions).

This is not a contribution to the main subject of the discussion
but right has to be right.

Pozdrav
-- 
/Predrag      email: predrag@isy.liu.se
From: condic@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: SERBIAN LANGUAGE
Date: 21 Jul 92 21:38:16 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

I am pleased to see the almost completely civil discussion
about the identity of the Serbian and Croatian languages.
I am, however, saddened by presentation of mostly pure
opinion on the topic, rather than well-grounded opinion
[based on sound evidence and arguments]. Unfortunately,
the issue is exceedingly complex and so well-grounded
opinions are difficult to arrive at, even for "experts"
in the field. It is significant that almost all professors
of linguistics in Croatia insist that Croatian and Serbian
are distinct languages, while almost all professors of
linguistics in Serbia insist there are only dialectical
variants of the same language.
I've read some of the literature, and have formed an 'opinion'
on the topic, but since i am not prepared to write an
extended article presenting the evidence and arguments, I
will refrain from expressing it [except by personal communications].
I urge those seriously interested to start reading the literature
on this topic.

Thanks, lets all strive to remain civil.
-- 
************************************************************
ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
*************************************************************
From: joel@wam.umd.edu (Joel M. Hoffman)
Subject: Article from Sunday's _Vreme_ wanted
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:54:46 GMT


There was an article in Sunday's _Vreme_ discussing the deportation of
of ethnic Muslims in Bosnia, comparing the situation to Jews crammed
into cattle cars during World War II.  If anyone has access to that
article, I would greatly appreciate receiving a copy.

I would also greatly appreciate if someone would take the time to
translate it into English.

Thanks very much in advance.

-Joel
(joel@wam.umd.edu)
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: MAKEDONIJA
Date: 26 Jul 92 14:07:51 GMT
Reply-To: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester UK

In article <1992Jul23.172437.7926@pixel.kodak.com> bucukov@bisco.kodak.com (Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998)) writes:
>
>				MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE!!!
>				(MACEDONIJA FOR THE MACEDONIANS)!!
>
>As a new participant in this BB, I am impressed with some of the findings about
> my old country Macedonija. At same time I am very disturbed by the ignorance
> that some people exhibit, writing propaganda information about Macedonija. The
> fact is that there is Macedonija and there will be Macedonija. There is no
> such thing  as the country of Skopje. This name represents only one of the
> many cities in Macedonija.

I may disagree with some points you make later but this is very much true.
Let us hope that Macedonia will be independent and world wide recognized
quite soon.

>Here I am referring to the REAL Macedonija, that is the former Yugoslav
> republic Macedonija.

In such case - the best thing to say is maybe Vardarska Mavedonia ?


>The name MAKEDONIJA is OURS. It is not Greek.

Hm, don't you feel taking a very much similar position to the one the Greek
hold? Why do you take a copyright?


>Now the Macedonian language topic.

I think there are 4 topics: The name "Macedonia", The independance of
Macedonia, the Macedonian language, and the Macedonian nationality. And
it's better to discuss every topic on it's own. 

> Just to illustrate my point: The same language spoken today was spoken
> even during the Turkish Empire which lasted 500 years in Macedonija. It is not
> that all of sudden after W.W.II all of this was created as some of you
> suggest.

Not quite correct. The language is very much similar - there were some/many
changes after WWII. But one thing is for sure - the idea for independant
Macedonia is about 80 - 100 years old !!! The language is another topic.


Pozdravi

Luben
From: bs670@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lee P. Karlowitz)
Subject: A town named Karlowitz...
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:27:36 GMT


	I was wondering if anyone out there knows of a town named
Karlowitz in Yugoslavia.  I recently discovered that there was
once such a town.  I know for instance that there was a Treaty of
Karlowitz.
	I am trying to get information on the origins of my 
family.  My great-grandfather was a German immigrant to the U.S.
and was named von Karlowitz.  I have never met any other Karlowitz's in my 
entire life outside my four remaining immediate relatives.
	Any help that you could give me would be greatly
appreciated.

						Thank you,
						L. Karlowitz

P.S.  Please e-mail me at 921karlowitz@merlin.nlu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: opposition
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:08:12 GMT

In article <1475300283@igc.org>, pnmideast@igc.org writes:
|>         So we beg the world to help us.Don't be mistaken,it is not
|> the overwhelming majority that supports the position,there are a
|> lot of us striving for truth and justice.Please,help us,we are
|> desperate.You will not help us by bombing us,the sanctions are
|> enough.         
|> 
|> Bojana Cvejic,Belgrade. 

I don't think that anyone wants to bomb civilians.  If any bombing does occur, it
will be military targets only.  And in my opinion, this actually WOULD help you. 
Taking the toys away from the steam-heads that think they can have their way if
they have the pover, will be a positive move.  Once Serbian generals start being
affraid of Croats or Bosnians, because their military superiority has been
destroyed by an outside factor, maybe there will finally be a ripe athmosphere
for negotiations.  As one Slovene military expert said, this war is the SIXTH
(yes, 6th) time in the last two centuries that serbs stared a war for Great
Serbia.  It's about time to end this nonsence and put a damper on Serbian
military power.  Just like with Germany after WWII.
From: CP6uH@plains.NoDak.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: o plavim slemovima...
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:32:58 GMT
Organization: University of North Dakota at Grand Forks

...par aforizama :

Nasi bratski narodi nece dozvoliti da ih ista razdvaja, a najmanje plavi
slemovi.

Srbi vekovima zive u Hrvatskoj kao ubacena cetnicko-teroristicka grupa.
--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Subject:  Undemocratic democracy
Reply-To: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:03:15 GMT

Just some thoughts. Suppose you have a country which has 
one or several minorities. Also suppose that the majority
in the country is not very friendly to the minority/minorities.
My question, how construct a parliamentary system that is 
really democratic?? Suppose we have total power over the
country and can write its constitution but after that
we loose the power but we know that the country will not 
go against its own constitution.

It is not enough to guarantee that if the minority is x %
of the population it has to be represented with x % in the
parliament. It is easy for the majority to change the
constitution because it has say over 67 % of the parliament
members, and strike the x % - guarantee.

Even if that doesn't happen it is possible that the parliament
can vote for a law prohibiting the minority of getting payed
(to exaggurate) for their work.

What is needed is a kind of veto-right for the minority that
can be used in questions concerning them. Now, who will decide
which questions concern them?? What if a tax law is discussed,
say a new tax on yellow houses. It seems OK, no discrimination
here, but what if the religion of x %-minority forces them
to paint their houses yellow. An indirect discrimination,
so to speak. It is obvious that a control organ is needed
to decide when the veto right can be used, or it will surely
be misused by the minority. Even though I'm a control engineer
I haven't got a good idea about how to construct the obviously
needed control organ. Anyone else???

Maybe there are good examples in the reality already that I
haven't thought about.

Pozdrav
-- 
/Predrag      email: predrag@isy.liu.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Zivjela Hrvatska
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:13:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.011523.21583@wuecl.wustl.edu> victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>
>PS.  Would you say "Zivijela Hrvatska" or "Zivela Hrvatska"?
>

I would say "Zivjela Hrvatska."  I would cheer with "Zivjeli."
I hope this is the correct spelling.  I'm pretty bad with
distinguishing "ije" form "je" and "\'c" from "\vc".  I guess
it is quite typical for my generation to merge "\'c" and "\vc".
I remember my teacher of "Croatian of Serbian" from my primary
school being terrified how the Croatian kids couldn't tell
"\'c" from "\vc"  She was Serbian.  Then in high-school we all
used the trick of merging 
 /     v      -
 C and C into C
when writing essays in class.  This way you could swing either way
and claim you ment the right thing in the first place.  :-)
From: brianm@kobito.ism.isc.com (Brian Makens)
Subject: Questions about the state of the War in Bosnia
Organization: Interactive Systems Corporation, Calabasas, CA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:19:20 GMT


The less than extensive coverage of the war in Bosnia in the US shows
little of the picture other than events in Sarejevo. Looking at a 
Michelan Road Atlas I have, I was wondering if somebody who has better
coverage of the news could tell me the probable status of some towns, so that I
could look at a map with a better feel for the status of the war, its spread
and whose controls what territory. I understand that this is a war of
irregular infantry and that there really is no fronts and that there is confusing and little news, but it would help to show what the factions are 
holding. 

This not an attempt to generate a score card, rather to supplement
the rather shoddy news reportage that we receive so as to get a 
better understanding of what is going on. Since the motivation of this 
war seems to be territorial conquest by some factions, an important
part of understanding what is happening is trying to figure out what
people have seized and what they want to seize.
			Thank You for your efforts in advance.
				Brian Makens
				brianm@ivy.isc.com
P.S  A good illustration of American news priorities is a commercial
being run by I believe CNN where two network morning talk show hosts say:
"Important events overseas, but first is your pet psychic?

				Controlled by
City			City			countryside around town 
e.g. Sarejevo		Bosnian Moslems		Serbs
Tuzla
Banja Luka
Zenica 
Prijedor
Bihac
Jajce
Bugojno
Bosanski Petrovac
Livno
Mostar


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia