From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Tyre
Date: 10 Oct 92 06:18:12 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Oct.9.04.36.40.1992.14903@geneva.rutgers.edu> max@cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
|>Tyre on the other hand was at its height at the time of the 
|>prophecy.  It was to be destroyed, made like a rock, have 
|>its building stones thrown into the sea, and be built no 
|>more.
| 
|Even the New Testament mentions Tyre.  Is the N.T. right or wrong?

The attack by Nebuchadnezzar on the mainland site and the taking of
the island by Alexander the Great fulfill that part of the prophesy.
The question is about whether or not Tyre was rebuilt.
 
This is repeated from before:
Let me suggest the following.  Suppose I had a house and so was attacked.
I and my whole family fled down the road and over the hill and across the
river and built a new house.  My old house is left.  Someone comes in
later and clears this house down to the ground.  Even if someone else
later came and built on my old lot, it can be safely said that the house of 
Pitts was not rebuilt.  

Let's take another example.  Suppose I die and someone else takes my name.
Have I returned from the dead?

|First you say:
|>  Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon fought against the city for 
|>thirteen years and took it.
| 
|Then you say [rpitts in later posting]
|>The prophecy did not say Nebuchadnezzar would take the city, but that
|>he would go against it.  They (the nations) would take the plunder.
| 
|Which is it?

Either I over stated what Dr. Kennedy said or he said it wrong.  I don't
have the book handy.  However, I do have the Bible handy and the prophecy
talked about Nebuchadnezzar attacking the mainland.  The nations the
other part of the prophecy (i.e., Alexander the Great) took the island.

Again, note the distinction of who will do what in the scripture.
He is Nebuchadnezzar and THEY NATIONS were Alexander the Great.

   Ezek 26:1   In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word
      of the LORD came to me:
   Ezek 26:2   "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate
      to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that
      she lies in ruins I will prosper,'
   Ezek 26:3   therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against
      you, O Tyre, and I WILL BRING MANY NATIONS AGAINST YOU, like the sea
      casting up its waves.
   Ezek 26:4   THEY WILL DESTROY the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I
      will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
   Ezek 26:5   Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for
      I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for
      the nations,
   Ezek 26:6   and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the
      sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
   Ezek 26:7   "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am
      going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of
      kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.
   Ezek 26:8   He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword;
      he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls
      and raise his shields against you.
   Ezek 26:9   He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your
      walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.
   Ezek 26:10   His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust.
      Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and
      chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have
      been broken through.
   Ezek 26:11   The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will
      kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to
      the ground.
   Ezek 26:12   They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they
      will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your
      stones, timber and rubble into the sea.
   Ezek 26:13   I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your
      harps will be heard no more.
   Ezek 26:14   I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to
      spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,
      declares the Sovereign LORD.

|>  Many former inhabitants fled 
|>for an island and made a new city of Tyre.
| 
|Well, you have quoted me the bible sentences that show that Tyre
|was already on an island, with minor settlements on the mainland:

Here, I think I summarized Dr. Kennedy correctly.  However, the Bible
gives rise to the fact that both the mainland and island existed.  
Again, I don't have the book - maybe because of my ingnorance I assumed
they fled to the island and started a new city, for I didn't know that
the island was there, when I read the book.

At the fall of Tyre at the hands of Alexander there were 40,000 inhabitants
and 10,000 of them were kill and 30,000 were sold into slavery.  Today
in the town with the name of Tyre there are about 23,000 inhabitants (1980.)

|>   Ezek 26:5   Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for
|>      I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for
|>      the nations,
|>   Ezek 26:6   and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the
|>      sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
| 
|Here, Ezekial indicates ALL of tyre will fall to *HIM* - the pronoun
|you attribute to Nebuchadnezzar.

SETTLEMENTS ON THE MAINLAND.  SHE WILL BECOME PLUNDER FOR "THE NATIONS".

Prophecies are often two fold - check out what Jesus quoted from Isaiah
when he declare the blind will see and that the year of the Lord's favor.
If you read on in Isaiah 61, you will see that the continuation proclaims
the day of God's wrath, too.  The day of wrath is future.

| ...
|>   Ezek 26:11   The hoofs of *his* horses will trample *all* your streets;
|>      he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will
|>      fall to the ground.
| 
| What does the phrase "ALL your streets" means?

If you see that he would attack the mainland, then it refers to those streets.
The passage does not say Nebuchadnezzar would get the plunder of the city,
but that the nations would.  God gave him plunder from Eygpt, as I believe
it says in chapter 27.

|[max in previous posting]
|
|>... D. Kennedy is the guy that denied ever having believed
|>in the Paluxy man-tracks (that supposedly coexist with dinosaur
|>tracks) until confronted with video tape. He is no more honest
|>here; this claim was trashed when it was quoted from McDowell.
|
|[to which rpitts objected]

If I objected, leave my comments for others to see or delete both
your statements and mine.

|>I think this argument tactic is called an ad homien(?) - against the
|>man and not the point presented.  What do you think?
| 
|It's called "Ad hominem."

Thanks.

|I think not. If a witness lies in court about a fact not directly
|related to the charges, that still has implications about the quality of
|his testimony, and you can bet the opposing council will call him on it.
|If I said "D. Kennedy bites the heads off chickens, so you shouldn't believe
|him" THAT would be ad-hominem. His taste or lack of same for live cuisine has
|no bearing on the quality of his testimony.

Ad hominem attacks the man's credibility and not the argument.

|Not so here. In this case, D. Kennedy has demonstrated his
|willingness to lie to advance his viewpoint, and his testimony should be
|viewed in that light.

Willingness to lie, hmmm.  I guess you know his heart pretty well.
 
|>I think Dr. Kennedy says he or one of his friends has stood at the site
|>of the old Tyre and has seen the bald ground and I think, even 
|>seen the fisherman drying their nets there.
| 
|For reasons already cited, I do not trust the personal testimony
|of D. James Kennedy. I have already mentioned his mendacity in the
|Paluxy affair, and I have tapes of his creationism rhetoric chock
|full of standard creationist distortions of scientific remarks.
|[supplied on request].

Ad hominem.
 
|Regards,
| 	Max G. Webb

Sincerely,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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