From: LASAGA@corral.uwyo.edu (LASAGA)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.latin-america
Subject: Re: Homophobia: US vs. CUBA
Date: 9 Jan 1993 19:47:46 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu





In his posting from <9 Jan 93 06:38:04 GMT>, Edelmiro 
<ez000281@hamlet.ucdavis.edu> writes:

>Greg Parkinson writes:                    
>                                                    
>>No study (and there have been several) has found            
>>that being raised by a same-sex couple had adverse            
>>effects on children - in fact, they are usually              
>>happier and better adjusted.                                
                                                                              
>Greg, I think you're missing the point.  The problem here is the double 
>standard and hypocrisy we have in our society.  

No, Edelmiro, the problem here is your double-standard and hypocrisy.
Your comments in spanish (to follow--translated) reveal a lot of ignorance
on your part.  Being hispanic yourself, I would imagine that you have been 
subjected to discrimination at _some_ point in your life, as well as to the 
various stereotypes about hispanics:  that they are stupid, emotional, 
not as capable as their superior north-american neighbors, etc., etc., etc.
I certainly have.  I am Cuban-american.  And I find it very disturbing to 
see that any member of a minority that has been frequently subjected to 
discrimination can turn around and promote stereotypes and prejudice 
against any other minority.  In your case, Edelmiro, you are promoting 
very biased misunderstandings about Jews (in a prior posting) and about 
gays and lesbians (see below).  I suggest you become more familiar with 
both of these _other_ minorities, and their histories, before you express 
any more bigotted opinions about them.

> we should apply the same principle to all (you know, equal protection 
>under the law) and say that gays can't adopt an infant cause they won't be  
>able to teach them "what it is to be straight". 

Children born and/or raised by lesbian and gay parents grow up to be
straight in the same percentage as children born and raised by straight
parents.  Homosexuality is not something you can "catch," and it is not
something that is learned by modelling.  Did the straight parents of
homosexuals teach their children to be gay?  Please, Edelmiro, wake up
to your bigotry.

Edelmiro ends his post with some comments in spanish (to be translated):

>[Nota al margen para nuestros amgios latinoamericanos:  Se fijan la mucha 
>libertad que tienen los homosexuales en los EEUU cuando los temas en la 
>agenda que se debaten abiertamente son la aprobacion de leyes que les 
>garantizan derechos especificos que protegen la homosexualidad.  ?Donde 
>se ha visto semejante cosa en latinoamerica?  

TRANSLATION OF EDELMIRO'S COMMENTS (ABOVE) FOLLOWED BY A REPLY:
T>[Note to our latin american friends:  You can see how much freedom
T>homosexuals have in the United States when the topics on the agenda
T>that are debated openly are the approval of laws that guarantee rights
T>specifically to protect homosexuality.  Where has the same thing been
T>seen in latin america?

Edelmiro, you seem to believe that people who disagree with you about
a topic (e.g., homosexuality) or want to lead their lives in a way
different from you (e.g., as homosexuals) should not be given the same
freedoms _you_ have because you don't approve of them or their lifestyle.
I guess that you have no idea how many laws are in place in this country
that at least _try_ to guarantee your right to housing, education, work,
etc., despite widespread prejudice against hispanics.  

What if you were fired tomorrow from your job for being hispanic?  What 
would you do?  You might want to sue.  You can do so under the law.  And 
much of the legal system would be sympathetic to your plight.  Well, if
a gay person in this country dares to sue for similar reasons, they face 
a hostile legal system.  And in Colorado, there is now an amendment in 
the state constitution that disallows gay people from suing when they 
have been fired or evicted _simply_ for being gay (forget that otherwise 
they were ideal workers or tenants, etc.).  Gay people can no longer
sue in that state if they are fired, evicted, etc.,  simply for being gay. 
This would probably be fine with you because gays don't deserve the 
freedoms you have, apparently. 

>Cuando era vecino de Madison, Wisconsin, la 
>comunidad homosexual dono una estatua de dos hombres abrazandose que 
>se puso en un parque publico.  Un dia unos mozalbetes vinieron y 
>vandalizaron la estatua con graffitti y la comunidad homosexual 
>protesto y consiguio que le pusieran un policia 24 horas frente 
>a la estatua para vigilarla.  ??Donde se ha visto esto 
>en America Latina?? ??Donde se han visto los desfiles anuales 
>de homosexuales en latinoamerica??  ??Donde se han visto 
>departamentos de "Estudios Homosexuales" en las universidades 
>latinoamericanas?? ??Donde.... bueno me canse, pero podria estar 
>comparando toda la noche la tremenda libertad que 
>tienen los homosexuales en los Estados Unidos, pais que le 
>brinda democracia a todos los grupos de todas las preferencias 
>sexuales.]

TRANSLATION OF EDELMIRO'S COMMENTS (ABOVE) FOLLOWED BY A REPLY:
T>When I was a neighbor in Madison, Wisconsin, the homosexual
T>community donated a statue of two men embracing which was placed
T>in a public park.  One day, some people vandalized the statue with
T>graffiti and the homosexual community protested and managed to
T>work it out so there was a policeman guarding the statue 24 hours a day.
T>Where has this been seen in latin america??  Where have we seen
T>annual parades of homosexuals in latin america?? Where have we seen
T>departments of "Homosexual Study" in latin-american universities?
T>Where??...well, I am getting tired, but I could continue comparing
T>all night the tremendous liberty that homosexuals have in the 
T>united states, a country that offers democracy to all groups of all
T>sexual preferences.

Whew.  Edelmiro, do you read your own postings?  Let's see.  In many latin-
american countries, you can be persecuted (i.e., killed) for simply 
disagreeing with the government.  Are you of the opinion that 
homosexuals should be treated likewise in this country (or perhaps,
simply incarcerated) because _you_ or even the majority don't agree 
with their lifestyle?  Should we model the United States
government after the many bloody dictatorships of latin america?  What
exactly are you implying here, Eldemiro, because you are assuming that
you are speaking to many like-minded individuals, and I clearly am not one.

You say that homosexuals enjoy "tremendous liberty."  Which liberties
do homosexuals enjoy that you don't?  Or do you enjoy tremendous
liberties, too?  Hello?
  
You are right about the fact that the United States is a democracy 
(as imperfect as it is), and I am glad that in this country, we value 
basic civil rights for_all_ people, regardless of their prejudices 
regarding others.  Unfortunately, sometimes people are completely blind
to their own prejudices, and they pass amendments or laws like the one
in Colorado.  Fortunately, people can sometimes be enlightened about
their own blind spots... only time will tell in Colorado.

I saw a cartoon recently that I thought was great.  It had a middle-aged
woman swinging a large sign, and the sign read, "500,000 bigots can't
be wrong".  Think about it, Edelmiro.  Anyway, the good thing is that
even bigots can be educated, though some may be beyond hope of 
enlightenment.  I hope that Edelmiro can at least _listen_ to dissenting
opinion (truly listen).

-maria lasaga