From: scriv@angmar.llnl.gov (Mark Scrivener)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: RE: Straw Poll of Supra and ZyXEL
Keywords: Straw Poll, Supra, ZyXEL
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:30:18 GMT
Organization: UC LLNL


Well the results are in! I'd like to thank everyone who took time to
respond. In my initial post, I asked people to rate the Supra and the
ZyXEL modems on a scale of -10 (worst) to +10 (best). Here are the results:

	Total responses: 40
	Total Supra:	 27
	Total ZyXEL:	 13	(Note: some people scored both modems,
				       for purposes of the total I counted
				       this as 2 responses.)

	Supra average:	 +5.8
	Supra SDev	  4.1

	ZyXEL average:	 +8.2
	ZyXEL SDev	  1.2

A histogram of responses follows:

	Score		Supra (#)	ZyXEL (#)
	-----		--------	--------
	-10		0		0
	-9		0		0
	-8		0		0
	-7		0		0
	-6		1		0
	-5		0		0
	-4		1		0
	-3		0		0
	-2		1		0
	-1		0		0
	 0		0		0
	 1		1		0
	 2		0		0
	 3		0		0
	 4		1		0
	 5		3		1
	 6		3		0
	 7		5		1
	 8		5		4
	 9		3		7
	10		3		0

Those persons who scored both modems ALWAYS scored the Supra LOWER than
the ZyXEL (the lowest ZyXEL score was a +5, and this person gave the
Supra a +1).

It seems that the Supra is a good modem for the money, but it has some
flaws (gets hot, latches up, sometimes has problems with connections,etc).
If you have good phone lines, don't plan on unattended operation, need
special protocalls, and are willing to tollerate the ocasional glitch,
then the Supra might be a good deal for you.

The ZyXEL, however, appears almost bullet proof. If you want the next
best thing to perfection and don't want to pay out the nose for it,
buy a ZyXEL (or so say our survey respondants). Other benifits of the
ZyXEL included better customer support, instant free ROM upgrades via
down-loadable ROM images (provided you can burn your own ROMs), and a
68000 with 2 DSP chips (providing a much more flexable engine than the
Rockwell ASICs in the Supra).

I've included a response I got that gave a nice comparision of several
modems, including the Supra and the ZyXEL. The respondant (sorry, don't
know his name) tested each modem and then ranked it on the -10 to +10
scale. His results agree with the survey.

					-Mark
P.S. I've decided to buy a ZyXEL (E+ model).



From pep@cypress.com Tue Nov  3 23:34:54 1992
To: Scrivener%llnl.gov@meson.cypress.com
~Subject: modems
Cc: pep@cypress.com


I did a one on one comparison of Gateway, Zoom, Supra, and ZyXEL. Here is
rough cut at data. I called several hard to connect to systems both local 
and long distance. Modems were rotated and the calling sequence cycled 
through approximately 5 times.  As an example of the variance, Gateway 
never connected to ZyXEL BBS. Rarely to R&E. Rarely (once? - don't have  
my notes with me) to work. ZyXEL connected to Supra, ZyXEL, USR Dual, PPI
reliably. Gateway never got 14400 connect to PPI. Only ZyXEL, and PPI 
(seperate test on PPI - not one on one) connected all of the time.
PPI droped carrier or had UUCP problem depending on PROMs used. PPI wasn't
tested under as adverse conditions as the others were.

>  Anyone interested in a comparison test against other
>  modem brands? I have the ZyXEL, can borrow a Zoom.
>  The Supra MAY be able to be borrowed again.
>

RESULTS OF THE FIRST Paul E. Platt MODEM SHOOTOUT


Gateway Telepath - Model tested had the latest PROMs as of September 1992. 
	This modem is cheap ($199) and comes with the best 
	software bundle. END OF GOOD NEWS. This was the worst performing
	modem BY FAR. It does not like to renegotiate and when it does
	renegotiate it sometimes screws up. This modem works well if you
	live in an area with perfect phone lines and only call others 
	with perfect lines. Documentation was the worst of the bunch;
	it consisted of a brief command listing and not much else. Call up 
	Zoom and get their manual. The commands are the same. The command 
	set for the FAX and modem are pretty comprehensive.This modem
	will sometimes lock in a state where it is outputting a tone and 
	where it refuses to accept ANY commands. The only way to exit this
	condition is with a hard reset of the computer. <CTL><ALT><DEL>
	doesn't help. Neither does diconnecting the modem from the phone line.
	The plug for a regular phone is unswitched. Hence that phone stays 
	connected during modem usage. This is both good and bad. On the plus 
	side, I sometimews used it for monitoring call progress up to the 
	time a tone was received. This was very useful with the Telepath 
	since it would return a BUSY response when it got a voice message 
	saying "We're sorry but your call did not go through as dialed.
	 Please check the number and dial again". At one point I thought 
	a BBS was very busy only to later find out I was dialing the wrong 
	number! On the downside, all phones connected to a line degrade the 
	connection. For that reason, most modems disconnect the regular phone. 
	In fact, the Gateway Telepath was very sensitive to other phones on 
	the line. Disconnecting all phones made a big improvement in the
 	reliability of connections. No other modem showed such extreem 
	sensitivity to associated equipment. PROMs are soldered in so 
	upgrades mean returning the modem. Tech support is helpful and 
	they have an excellent BBS. 
	However, they do tend to say "It's a problem with the phone line"
	to cover up the problem the Gateway has with noisy lines. The
	engineer who answers most of the hard questions (a nice and 
	knowledgeable person) just bought a ZyXEL.

Zoom - Works better than the Telepath by a good bit even though based
	on the same Rockwell chipset. Nice lights and a reasonably attractive
	case. Relatively cheap. A very rich modem and FAX command set.
	The problem is in performance. This modem tries to connect at 14.4K 
	even when it shouldn't. It then locks in the negotiation phase. 
	The result is CARRIER 14400 and then nothing. This is similar to the
	Gateway but requires more marginal lines for it to happen. Users
	with excellent phone lines will probably think this is a great
	modem. I don't. I like the manual. The AT, FAX, PROTOCOL and S register
	chapters have a command summary at the start and each command
	is then listed in more detail. Word on the street is that upgrades 
	to the firmware are few and far between. Tech support is near 
	impossible to reach.


			Zoom
			ati3
			V1.200 TR14-Jxxx-001 049


Supra - A very attractive package. This modem is TINY. It reminds me of a 
	small radar detector. The display is very informative and better than
	all but the PPI and the ZyXEL with the LCD. The speaker is the worst 
	sounding modem speaker I have ever heard. There have been reliability
	problems with the speaker but they are supposedly fixed. This modem
	worked well. It tends to try for a fast connection. However, it does
	a much better job than the Zoom or Gateway of getting through the 
	negotiation phase. Still, it can be made to exhibit the same
	CARRIER 14400 and then nothing response as the other Rockwell
	based modems. All in all, not a bad modem for the price ($265 here, 
	$199 at the BBS Con One convention). This modem runs hot so reliability
	is a question. Keep it well ventilated. Case has an expensive look. 
	Much nicer than the ZyXEL (especially E model) or Zoom. There is a
	front panel power switch (YEAH!). As with the other Rockwell based
	modems, a very good modem and FAX command set. Several stored factory
	setups designed for Mac, Mac with DTR, PC - a nice touch. I couldn't
	get the F2 default to be recognized however (user error??). The
	F0 and F1 defaults worked. Caller ID is being added and voice is 
	promised. The Supra BBS looks fairly good. Supra has a reasonable
	update policy with fixes being free and new features (caller ID etc.)
	being about $30. All in all, this is a reasonable modem if bottom
	line dollars are a first priority. The quick reference card is
	the best I have seen. The manual is ok for beginners but lacking in
	depth of coverage. The modem is available with various software 
	packages. The PROM revision number was V1.200H. I believe this is the 
	latest rev. without caller ID. Since these are the original PROMs,
	 it is interesting that caller ID hasn't been added to the shipping 
	product.

Practical Peripherals - Based on the AT&T chip set this one is hard to 
	call since I didn't have it available for direct comparison. However, 
	I was able to spend some time with it and have a preliminary opinion.
	The size and shape make placement a bit awkward. This modem really 
	wants to sit beside your PC and not on top of it. The display is 
	GREAT. Only the LCD model ZyXEL is better.Once you have used a 
	modem with this kind of display you won't want to go back. In some 
	areas it is better than the ZyXEL. The ZyXEL will just say 
	DIALING..... The PPI will say DIALING then FAR RING to show that 
	it is getting a ring at
	the other end of the line. There are several other messages not 
	displayed by the ZyXEL. The modem is easy to update and the past 
	policies of PPI have been very nice. PROM changes are sent free of 
	charge. All they ask is that the old PROMs be sent back in the 
	supplied mailer. The quick reference card is very good. Slightly
	below that of the Supra and the ZyXEL. It doesn't show the FAX 
	commands. The manual is good for beginners but lacks the depth of the
	Zoom manual. Connections are, in most cases, easy to make. I was 
	never able to connect to the ZyXEL BBS however. The PPI likes to 
	make high speed connections and seems to stay at 14400 more than 
	the ZyXEL. However, when it does renegotiate, there is a problem 
	and the connection is more often than not lost. This is fixed in 
	the latest PROM release (1.15m). However, the fix resulted in the 
	modem not working on uucp connections. PPI is serious about fixing this
	problem and they were asking to work closely with my friend who owns
	the PPI. It seems that at first they didn't know what uucp was.
	This looks to be an excellent modem once this problem is fixed. 
	For the moment I would stay away if uucp is a concern. Also, make
	sure you have the latest PROMs (1.15m?) since otherwise you will 
	get lots of dropped connections. I had trouble getting through my 
	mail before being dropped. The street price for this modem is 
	about $400. This is expensive for a modem with 9600 FAX (not 14.4K)
	and no caller ID or voice mail capability.

Courier HST Dual - I didn't have one to evaluate but almost all BBSs use 
	these. Some of this is due to their long standing discount program for
	sysops but I have heard only good things about these modems.
	Unfortunately, you pay a lot for the security. Probably a safe bet 
	but costly. No voice or caller ID. No security features. The 16.8K
	mode is proprietary and is 16.8K in only one direction. The ZyXEL
	is 16.8K both ways. However, the HST mode is more widely supported.
	In many ways these are the "cheap" reference modems. 

AT&T and Motorola - Great reputations. Didn't have any to test. I wanted
	to mention them since they are the safe bets for a business. 
	VERY EXPENSIVE. Generally no side features (FAX, caller ID etc.).
	The AT&T is able to download the update to its PROMs by dialing a 
	special number. THE best way of doing updates I have ever seen. Most 
	of these can be remotely configured (so can the ZyXEL) which aids 
	the system administrator. There are now pre-v.fast modems available 
	that transmit around 24K baud. If you really need high speed point to
	 point over regular phone lines and you have $1800 to spend ($900 
	each end) then that is the way to go. Everything else is bush league.

	<BACK TO REAL WORLD - HE WAKES UP FROM THE DREAM OF v.FAST>

ZyXEL U-1496 (S & E) - The S model is usually listed without the S designator
	i.e. as U-1496. This is the LCD model. It has far and away the best 
	display I have ever seen. Scope outputs are an option. If you can 
	afford this modem then get it. I learned more about my phone lines 
	in 5 minutes with this modem than from 2 visits by the local phone
	company technician. If nothing else, at least borrow one for a day.
	The feature set is too long to list here. Read the review in 
	Boardwatch Magazine. The S model is physically very large and at the
	opposite end of the size range from the Supra. The E model is smaller
	than the S. It is slightly larger than the Zoom
	i.e. close to typical but slightly bigger. The E has the more 
	traditional front panel lights and is similar to the Zoom in capability
	of the display. There are some extra display features over the Zoom
	with bliking lights telling you line quality etc. but I found that a 
	little awkward. Both ZyXEL models have caller ID, voice mail, FAX 
	and on and on. Performance was the best of the group actually tested 
	(Zoom, PPI, Gateway, Supra). The ZyXEL is conservative. I got a lot 
	of 12K connections where other modems connected at 14.4K. HOWEVER, under
	the line conditions that generated the 12K ZyXEL connections, the ZyXEL 
	always connected while the others sometimes hung either during
	initial negotiation or renegotiation. All in all, this is my favorite 
	modem and I wound up sending back my Gateway and buying a ZyXEL 1496S.
	Speed shifts are fast. Speaker sound quality is good. It has many
	rare features - DTMF recognition, distinctive ring recognition,
	security callback, leased line dial backup, front pannel 
	programmability (S model). Negatives include a manual that's out of date
	and doesn't document many features (a new one has just been introduced),
	lack of support for some common AT command extensions, poor software
	documentation, & no Windows software. ZyXEL is excellent about issuing
	revised firmware. ZyXEL and Supra seem to have the most active update 
	programs. ZyXEL's update policy is reasonable but not as good as PPI's.
	They sell the updated PROMs for about $20. The code is freely available
	for download if you want to save money and burn your own. ZyXEL 
	dealers are few and far between. This is a shame for such an excellent 
	product. Their BBS is reasonable and I have gotten fair responses.
	With the design staff in Taiwan, I doubt that techie questions will
	be as easily answered as on the Gateway BBS. Modem has a 16.8K mode.
	This is an extension of v.32bis and is not compatible with HST 16.8K.
	ZyXEL is placing the protocol in the public domain (thank you). Also,
	there are new + models coming out which extend this mode to 19.2K
	(not right now - a future PROM update). There may be some issues with
	16.8K since there has been a problem with 16.8K connections not being
	clean or properly downshifting on noisy lines. I have not experienced 
	this myself. Mine has worked fine. The 16.8K problem gets solved when 
	one of the ZyXELs is restricted to 14.4K or slower. This brings up a 
	connand set feature missing on many modems. It is possible to set 
	v.22bis/no negotiation and connect easily to older 2400/1200 baud modems. 
	Many modems (Gateway, Zoom) require that you lock to a specific speed 
	i.e. S37=5 for 1200 baud. The ZyXEL method is much more flexible.
	Figuring out how to connect to America Online was minutes rather than 
	the days that I spent with the Gateway and the string was simple: 

		AT&N15&K0

	Be sure to ask about availability of the plus models when ordering.
	These modems are not cheap. Call around for good pricing. ZyXEL will
	supply names of dealers. Get them to give you the full list and not
	just the guy in your area. Then call around. The E model can be had for 
	$329 from Mike Bernstein at the Kandy Shack (800-638-1170). The E+ is 
	about $500. Tradeup policy is currently undefined. I hope they will use
	PPI as an example. PPI had a tradeup policy (about $250) from their 
	9600 to 14400 modems. It was supposed to be an upgrade but became a
	tradeup when the decision was made to add the LCD display to the PPI.
	PROMs are rev. 5.02 m. There is a problem with 16.8K when the modem 
	retrains (or is it shifts speed?) in the middle of negotiation.
	This only happens on the initial connect (as far as we have seen). 
	You get 16.8K no error correction rather than downshifting. ZyXEL
	is aware of this and has a fix in beta test. Same with the problem
	connecting to Microsoft BBS. 

In summary, for the price and if you have fairly good phone lines, get the 
Supra. If you want the best of the ones I tested then that is the ZyXEL. If
you want it all as far as fearures go get the ZyXEL. If you want a modem that 
is also a piece of phone line test equipment then get the ZyXEL 1496S. 
I bought the S model I tested. I am now sending it back but only because
I want the S+ model. 

UPDATE: Tech response from ZyXEL has been very good. Better than I expected.
They say PROMs are free when they are only a bug fix. Upgrade path from
S to S+ is to sell the S ( or in my case get a refund ) and buy the S+.
I think they should do better here. UDS will upgrade to full v.fast for free 
but ythe modem costs $900 street price. I am still in love with the ZyXEL. 
The display on the S is just to good to give up. It has proven more useful 
than I would have imagined. By watching the instantaneous data rate (RX & TX) 
numbers you can tell a lot about what is going on. S/N says a lot about how variable line quality is. Last night kept bouncing from 26dB to 12bD. 12 is awful
and resulted in a speed shift to 4800. 26 will support 14400 - I live in the 
boonies!

The Rockwell based modems have problems in negotiation. All three above 
showed the same problem signature (CARRIER 14400 then nothing). The ZyXEL 
and PPI do not. The fact that I am returing my S for an S plus and shipping
the Gateway back says it all. BTW, Supra is $265 locally so I must REALLY
like the ZyXEL to spend so much more on it.


Gateway --- 	-10 garbage
Zoom    ---	 -7 poor
PPI     ---	 -7 poor IF you need UUCP. Not -10 since I have faith PPI
			will fix it. Friend is taking his SPARCstation
			over to PPI to show them the problem. They called
			him.
Supra   ---	 +4 adequate. Great feature set. Lots of upgrades.
PPI     ---	 +7 if no UUCP usage. Great display. PROM changes fixes
			dropped connection probelm (but breaks UUCP)
			Who uses 14400 FAX anyway. I don't get caller ID.
ZyXEL   ---      +9 Not perfect but close enough for sport. Best feature set.
			Works well on poor lines.

MOST WANTED FEATURE: Upgrade of PROMs via modem like AT&T. Expect to
			go through several upgrades no matter what you choose.

Hope this long winded report helps. Let me know if you get this.

[end of article]


Bye,
David

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| David Tse      E-mail: tpang@sfu.ca (Internet)                           |
| Snail Mail: P.O. Box 26052, Richmond, BC, V6Y 1Z3, Canada                |
| Home: Amiga A3000/25 + AMaxII (Macintosh emulation) + PCTask (MS-DOS)    |
| Modem: ZyXEL U-1496E (16.8k/V.32bis/14.4kFax/Voice-digitizing/DTMF)      |
| Portable: HP48SX  ; Next to TV: Amiga A1000 (Nintendo killer)            |
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Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems