From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 23:16:50 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Originator: clin@analog.eng.umd.edu


In article <36Li02382cT001@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, kls30@cd.amdahl.com (Kent L. Shephard) writes:
>
>I don't agree with lowering admission standards but the fact remains that inner
>city schools where most AfAm attend are not adequate for college prep and the 
>schools in suburbia are.  How do you solve the problem of a bright AfAm
>student 
>that has a lot of potential not being able to get into college because
>his high
>school was crap?

   There are some schools that may have large number of whites, and are
also crap.   The main problem is that some schools are crap, and some aren't.
The uneven quality presents quite a problem.   One way out of this might
be to install more "magnet" schools like they do in New York (Bronx Science,
Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech) or San. Fran. (Lowell, I think), and essentially
make admission contingent on passing a test to get in.   It would stil be
public, but then bright students could get better education.

   Also, one has to look for what is causing inner city schools to produce
inferior education to suburban schools, and what are the causes.   Once that
is done, a remedy can be sought for.   For example, having completely different
schools for students of differing ability, rather than just attending the
closest school.   The problems, I think, are deeper that just where the
schools are located, but may also extend to the neighborhood people live
in, the families's beliefs on the value of education, the home environment,
the quality of teaching, and so on.   Personally, I don't think it's entirely
fair to put all the blame on the schools itself.   Treating the problem of
getting people educated is, I believe, a deep problem, whose solution may
not be entirely favorable to those involved.

>Also what is preferential about tutoring.  At SFSU and SJSU I was a tutor for
>the AfAm organizations.  So.  Does it make me a racist because I volunteered
>my time to the AfAm organizations and not the white?  I don't think so.
>Since when have white engineering or any other students had a problem getting
>a white tutor?  One reason for having AfAm tutors is the problems we experience
>are a lot different from white students.  If a white student asked for help i
>wouldn't refuse but I didn't look in the halls for white students to tutor like
>I did AfAm either.

    Personally, it doesn't bother me who you want to tutor, but then
I wasn't the original poster.   The question is whether whites really
can get a (presumably white) tutor.   Most people, I've seen, don't
get tutors even if they could really use one.   There are some
professional engineering societies here that are supposed to tutor
students, but I'm not really sure who takes advantage of it.
The question is whether all whites get all these advantages that
AfAms claim they do.  (i.e.,  "whites can easily get this or easily
get that").   There are foregin students that I know of who claim
"Just because you're an American, you can get a job easily".   I don't
think it would be that easy.   Of course, it may be harder for a
foreign student, but I can't say for sure.   Mind you, I'm not saying
that whites may not have more advantages, it's just that some folks
are quick to assume that "Of course, they do", without necessarily
having checked it out for themselves.

    Finally, not everyone is black or white, so, for example, would you
have helped an Asian American, or a Hispanic (Latino), or a Native
American, etc., some of who may be not be able to get a "tutor"
just like that?

>As far as mentors go.  When was the last time a white student had a problem
>finding a white professional with the same type of career goals as he/she?
>Now ask how many AfAm engineers most high schools students see.

    How many engineers does anyone see?   I don't recall seeing any
engineers as a high school student, and probably had no idea of what
an engineer did (OK, maybe I did, but...).   Even so, if I knew
of some Asian American engineers, how would that motivate me
to go into engineering?   Engineering is a lot of hard work.  I
may decide that something else is preferable.   It would be better
if you could convince AfAm parents that engineering is important
and to tell their kids to work hard in math and science.   I think
that will do a lot more than seeing more people in the work place.
I would say most engineers decide to be engineers because they
are good at science, not because they see white engineers, and say,
boy, I'd really like to be one of them.

    For example, I can't think of a single Asian American teacher
I've had when I was in high school.   There were more women, more
AfAms, and white males teaching than Asian Americans (of which I
know of no one).   Given this premise, I should be non-motivated
in education.   Or, even in college, I had no courses that were
taught to me by non-whites.   Now, the dept. had teachers of Asian
origin, but they weren't Asian American.   The question is whether
this would provide more motivation or not.   There isn't such
an equivalent situation among AfAms.   That is, we don't know what
would happen if engineering schools hired a large number of Africans.
For example, if Africa suddenly became the hotbed of engineering
study, and produced a large number of high-reputed professors, I'm
sure the US would hire them.   Now, it may be possible that these
Africans would find Americans (AfAms or whites) to be generally
lazy and therefore prefer, say, other foreign students (perhaps
other Africans, for example).   Under this condition, do these
Africans provide adequate role models or not?   

   I raise this to bring up a situation where one can see Asian
profs., and yet they may not serve, necessarily as role models,
i.e. attracting more students.    Frankly speaking, I might even
prefer a white (or AfAm) professor who's command of English was
better.    Actually, there are starting to be many engineering
schools where the faculty is increasingly foreign-born.   Does
this provide motivation for white students to take courses when
many faculties are beginning to be non-white?   Surely, this would
motivate non-whites to achieve more.   I don't know if I've ever
seen a white student who said "You know I'm going to study harder
because I see so many white profs."  It's more likely to be the
case that they study hard because they have always studied hard,
or that they have a motivation to get good grades.   

    My belief is the monetary and educational background of
your parents have a lot to do with how you will fare.   If
your parents are not highly educated, then the likelihood
is that you won't be either.   This might even apply to whites
as well, as one might look at whites that are poor or not well-
educated, and see the likelihood of their children, who ought
to have all the advantages in the world (in the US, anyway) and
see if they do well or not.   If a large number do not, then
this idea of role models, may not stand to much scrutiny.  One
would then have to argue that money and education are more
relevant, than say race (of course, this would require research
to various minority groups as well).

>White student have never had problems as a whole with all the things you list.
>AfAm students have had serious problems in those areas.  
>whites have had the biggest quota system in ameriKKKa.  When you deny AfAm and
>other people of color admission to an institution you are gcreating a 100%
>white quota.

    I'm not sure how this follows.   In any case, there are countries,
like India, who do, in fact, use a quota system.   However, the result
is that some (even many) of these students who are admitted by the
quota system, do not fare as well as those who were admitted based on
their test scores (many colleges use a test, rather than evaluation
for admission, though I'm sure some strings can be pulled, it is
probably fairly rare).   Now, one can try to guess why this should be.
One reason could be that there is discrimination against the minorities
who came in via the quota.   The other reason is that students these
students were not as capable as those who were not admitted via
a quota system.   Now, if one was a member of the minority, which
explanation would be chosen?  And if one were not a minority, which
would be chosen?   Still, the Indian education system sees the
inequality, and therefore the quota system is used.   The problem,
however, may be much deeper, and the quota system a kind of inexpensive,
and perhaps not necessarily effective, fix to the problem.   The kind
of solution may require a lot more money and a lot of convincing 
parents of the value of education.

    Finally,  this idea of role models may serve to add pressure to AfAms
to perform to the best of their ability because they believe in the
usefulness of role models.   I had a discussion last year over the reasons
why more AfAms are not in graduate school.   Some explained that the
main reason is that they were tired of school (which is an explanation
many white students give as well) and that they wanted to earn money
and get a job, rather than go further in debt, and go through maybe
five more years of the grind.   They believed that people should
go to graduate school because they want to do it, not because it's
better for AfAm's that they do so.   Some did not want to have to
bear this burden of being the representative role model.

   Whites don't seem to feel this need.   They aren't under the pressure
of having to keep a white majority in the area of graduate research.
They go to grad school because they want to, or possibly because their
parents want them to.   And, a great deal more would also prefer to
work.   That's why grad schools are populated with a lot of foreign
students.   These foreign students believe that higher education
pays off, and want to do the work it takes to get ahead in the
US system.   In fact, whites ought to be somewhat discouraged to
be in grad school (esp. in engineering) because there are so many
foreign students.   Maybe I ought to be discouraged.   Perhaps I'm
being lumped in with foreign Asian students, and hence fewer
Asian *Americans* are going to grad school.   In any case,
I don't feel discouraged, at least, not because there are
so many foreign students.   A lot of the are quite friendly, actually.

    So, anyway, I personally think that a lot of the explanations
I see for the cause of inequities may not (but could be) the
where the problem really lies.   It's often easier to just use
the same arguments on both (or three or four) sides and hold them
to be truths because they *sound* right, even if they may not be
right.   One needs to think through whether the explanations
that people provide make sense or not, and think for onesself.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
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