From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 05:58:02 GMT

cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>
>>have been published to show a stabilization of prices and even some
>>lowering in the past two years.
>
>yes, that will tend to happen during a recession. don't give the
>GST credit for that.

No, I never meant to imply that ... I assume you're aware of the free
price hike that the private sector took with the introduction of the
GST (i.e., keep prices the same, add GST) ... in that time, prices
have come down due to a cross-border shopping rebellion, more and freer
international trade, internal efficiencies on the private sector (are
you aware of the Canadian Business survey that revealed all the middle
men in the supply chain?  It was okay for opening up the West to the
fur trade and stuff, but I was amazed that it stayed around in one
form or another).  Industry is getting on its toes ...

>>Also, that the GST funds have been earmarked to write down our
>>deficit helps to reinforce the idea of fiscal responsibility,
>>something that our population needs to be reminded of repeatedly ...

>so, has the deficit gone down since the GST was introduced?

I don't think that it has gone up as quickly; and remember that they GST
funds that are to be used for writing off the deficit cannot be used for
anything else, so the government is enforcing some kind of diet ...

>>>not even close. i live in taxachusetts, and there's still no 
>>>comparison.  and there are many states which have no income tax.
>>
>>New York and California are not among them.  Others make up for it by
>>having higher property taxes.  Or, you can live in a desert state ...
>>not much to have to pay state taxes for. (-;
>
>well, they could say the same thing about manitoba or newfoundland,
>couldn't they?

Economies of scale affect those places in ways that New Mexico (having
California and Texas next door) does not suffer.  I know, I was from
Manitoba (legally, I still am ...).  Nobody around for thousands of
miles ... Toronto and Vancouver?  Sure ... (-;

>look, i have filed both canadian and US income tax returns in the last
>year. there is *no* comparison. i did a rough calculation before
>i moved here that showed that a gross salary of $250,000 in canada
>is equivalent to a salary of $140,000 in the states in terms of
>purchasing power. and that doesn't even take into account the difference
>in the value of the dollar. (no, my wife and i don't make anywhere near
>that amount -- but i hope that we will be able to some day).

You lost tons of deductions because you're not in Ontario any more.
You lost a few more 'cos you're outside of Canada.  I know, I've done
that route before (with Quebec, 'cos one of my last private sector
stops was in Montreal).  Get this ... I qualified to vote provincially
but didn't gain enough yearly residency to write off my rent! )-;

>>>>On the other hand, a wealthy nation ought to be able to compete in
>>>>terms of infrastructure ... educated populace, facilities, lack of
>>>>public liabilities (with universal health insurance, not even our
>>>>welfare bums get so sick as to ring up multi-million dollar tabs at
>>>>our hospitals -- they get fixed up early, so they can either work or
>>>>get cut off).
>>>
>>>classic socialist gobbledy-gook.
>>
>>You can do better than McCarthyism ... everyone else is Red, right?
>
>more classic socialist gobbledy-gook: call a mccarthyist everyone
>who recognizes your words as socialist.

From what I've gathered, as a Liberal and (recently) Conservative
voter, I'm still a Red ... (-; (-; (-; (I'm waiting on Paul Martin,
Jr. and then I'll decide on going back to the Liberals -- he's a 
free trader and fiscally responsible, made his own money, etc.)

>>Not all Canadians are communists on welfare.  The majority of people
>>up north work for a living.
>
>of course they do. but they get health care even if they don't.
>why should they? isn't having someone take care of your body a 
>valuable service that one should earn, like any other?

It'd be fine if one's ill health didn't incur damage upon other people,
such as illness upon them, or utilizing services and not being able to
pay or medical bankruptcy.  We used to have them in Canada, one of our
renters in the '60s did it to us (and the bank, utilities, etc.) before
universal insurance came in.

>>If you refuse a certain number of assignments, you lose your welfare
>>up north.
>
>oh yeah, this system works real well. i was working for a computer
>systems firm in '87 in toronto (when things were going well). a
>man in his 50's walked in the front door, unshaven, in dirty clothes,
>and asked if we had a job for him. the person responsible said no,
>so he asked if we could sign a form for the government saying
>that he had tried to obtain employment.

Shoulda called the Toronto Sun.  They would have eaten it up.  Write
a letter to your MP.  Have your company president write to his/her MP
esp. if the MP is in Cabinet -- on letterhead -- we don't make enough
of a stink on this.  I don't think that the Americans nor Europeans
do any better in this area ... I hope that you refused to sign.  Too
many Canadians would shrug it off and sign ... that complacency bugs
me, too, so I think that we're on the same wavelength here ...

>how have they moved toward fiscal sensibility? mulroney (conservative)
>promised to reduce the deficit and instead raised it; peterson
>(liberal, former premier of ontario) raised the deficit and then
>covered it up; rae (NDP, current premier of ontario) has been so 
>fiscally sensible he got the province's credit rating downgraded...

Mulroney had to fight momentum from the 20 years of Trudeau, which
were all right until the bill came due ... every budget issued has
been a further clampdown on the treasury ... did you catch last
week's?  Lots of cuts and the interest groups are screaming ... not
even George Bush dared to be so bold.  I don't know if it's all that
well thought out, I'm still catching up with real news ... (-;

David Peterson had a lot of spending commitments momentum going back
to the Bill Davis/John Robarts Conservative dynasty and couldn't do
much; Rae will be a one-term deal and can't inflict that much damage.
Being from Ontario, you realize that his mandate is a protest vote.

>>don't forget that some of that "socialism" (if you use the broad,
>>all-encompassing American definition) was instigated by the
>>business establishment itself
>
>how so?

Health insurance.  In Quebec, private insurers have warned against 
any thought of reprivatizing portions of their provincial plan last
spring.  I've not heard a peep out of London, ON about reprivatizing
the basic health portion ... and the U.S. parent companies of the
subsidiaries (who knew the score all along) are starting to sound like
our people used to ... meanwhile, our people pat themselves on the
back for cooperating.  As a control, look at the public auto insurance
in Manitoba ... I'm against it, and the private sector is lobbying to
get it back.  The health insurance has been around a lot longer.  Not
a single corporation, Canadian or forieign subsidiary, has come out 
against it.  Lee Iacocca is a big fan, though ...

>>But there is a trend ... GM closed a plant in Van Nuys, CA and then
>>consolidated its production in Bromont.  IBM's exploitation of our
>>Canadian brains comes at the same time that other firms are doing so
>>in other areas, like Ericsson in Montreal (I'm jobhunting all over 
>>the continent, it's not just what I'm reading in the papers, and 
>>I'm amazed at the changes that I've seen up north since the past
>>five years that I've been out of the market).
>
>that's the most optimistic extrapolation i've heard in a long time.

Did you ever look for an R&D job in the mid-80's?  The difference is
now astounding.  I was a bright Bachelor's graduate and got nowhere.
I was lucky to hitch onto the BNR/NorTel track through grad school,
and I owe them a lot.  I look at younger siblings of friends getting
out of school now (Bachelors, Masters) and where they can get entry
level R&D jobs, they have a lot more places to send resumes to than
I did.  Not just me, ask people from 10-15-20 years ago.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
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