From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Taiji and Tai Chi.....
Date: 12 Jan 1993 01:49:14 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

Stepping into a well-worn thread, renault@CAM.ORG (Pierre Renault) writes:

  +[...] Taijiquan does not have anything to do with taoism.
  +
  +Th"tai" has as a radical (root) the word ta"  "Ta" is associated with
  +bigness, excess, largeness.  A point is added to make "tai" which, as an 
  +adverb, means "too, excessively, very".
  +
  +"Ji" (chi) means "clever, powerful" as an adjective.
  +
  +"Quan" (chuan, ch'uan) means boxing-style as everyone knows.
  +
  +So, you get, "very powerful boxing-style"

And so you do.  Except that generally, languages are not like
addition.  The character "T'ai" or "Tai" means "very big or
large."  Also rendered as "supreme" or "grand."  The character
"Chi" or "ji" is more commonly translated as "to exhaust" or
"extreme; highest; topmost; farthest."  "Quan" is more literally
translated as "fist" but does frequently mean "boxing" or
"boxing style" depending on the context.

So you get the common literal translation "supreme ultimate" or 
"grand ultimate" boxing.  But your effort to show that the 
literal translation of the two characters "supreme ultimate"
therefore means that Taijiquan has no connection with Taoism
implies that you are not familiar with Chinese language and 
culture.  I believe that the original statement that you refer 
to was by Michael Robinson, but I think his original explanation 
was not included.

The two characters more or less mean what you translated them
to be.  But together, Taiji is the basic Taoist philosophical
principle of the "Supreme Ultimate" in the universe which 
gives rise to the two primordial powers (Liangyi, which, 
BTW is also the name of another martial art), Yin and Yang.  
Ideas and principles which permeate most teaching of Taijiquan.

These Taoist philosophical principles are mentioned in 
Appendix III of the Yijing, a work that dates back to Early
Chou dynasty times (Chou dynasty ran from something like 
1000 BC to about 480 BC).

As many know, the Yijing, Lao Zi's Dao, and the Zhuangzi are
the 3 principal texts of Taoism.  The idea that the art is
named after this Taoist philosophical principle is pretty 
much mentioned by most masters (see, for instance, Ch'eng
Man-Ch'ing's _Thirteen Treatises_, 1 & 2).
  +
  +It is quite likely that Chen taijiquan developped quite independently of
  +taoism, and probably predates it.  Though one can analyse taiji with tao, 
  +the two are seperate.  One can analyse many things with tao, but that 
  +doesn't make that "art" in harmony with the principles of tao.

I seriously doubt your points.   Gu Liuxing notes in his 
history of Taijiquan in _Chen Style Taijiquan_ that one 
of the key innovations of Chen Wangting was the integration 
of daoyin and tuna (the breath exercise, not the fish) 
with martial arts.  Daoyin and tuna were practices that 
were most highly developed and practiced by Taoists.

Taoism probably dates back to the Chou dynasty as noted
above (though I guess some think perhaps back to the 
state of Ch'u).  It later underwent significant changes
with the introduction of Buddhism, particularly in the
Han dynasty.  Chen style Taijiquan really only dates
itself back to Chen Wangting who lived from something
like 1580 to 1660.  Taiji and Taijiquan are certainly
two separate concepts.  But I don't think that the
Tao is just for use as a form of analysis.  Whether or
not an art is in harmony with the principles of Tao is
a question I think more appropriately directed to its
practitioners.

Even the old time Yang style people trace their art to
Ch'ang San-Feng, a Taoist monk whose life, depending on
who you consult, runs somewhere through the Yuan and
Ming dynasties (something like 1300 to 1600).

[If you want some references:  
  - On the history of Taijiquan and esp. the Chen style,
    try _Chen Style Taijiquan_ by Feng Zhiquiang and
    Chen Xiaowang, though the specific writing I refer to
    is by Gu Liuxing.

  - Taiji and other aspects of Taoism, something like
    Feng Yu-Lan's _History of Chinese Philosophy_ (which
    I consulted along with the introduction to Cleary's 
    _The Book of Balance and Harmony_).

  - The statement of Ch'eng Man-Ch'ing is in Ch'eng Man-
    Ch'ings _Thirteen Treatises_, (the Ben Lo version).

  - The dictionary I used was my brain (which was abridged)
    and _A New Practical Chinese-English Dictionary_ by
    The Far East Book Company.

If you've got some documentation or sources on your points,
I would be interested in hearing about them.

Terry Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division   | Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory      | 
Berkeley, California  USA  94720  | Yeah, right.