From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:30:49 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <TOMSTER.92Oct9210910@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble) writes:
> In article <6170.2ad5a35b@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
> 
>    While it may be obvious to a PROGRAMMER when the keyboard focus changes,
>    it certainly isn't ovious to the USER. When I bring up a dialog box within
>    the same application, it may TECHNICALLY be a different window, but to me,
>    the user, it is the same application.
> 
> If you are openning a file, you mean, you also want to be able to type into
> the spreadsheet simultaneously?  That seems rather silly.  

Of course it seems silly. Because that wasn't what I was talking about.

What I want to do is simple. When I open the file, I want to give it the name
that I already have in the clipboard. (Maybe my spreadsheet has a list of
files) While that dialog is up, if I try to do a ALT-EP in order to invoke
Edit / Paste from the menu -- it won't work. Instead, I have to do Shift-Ins.
(Or perhaps Ctrl-P, depending on the progressiveness fo the application)

Inconsistant. Damned confusing.

> Of course it is the same application.  It is quite apparent, however, no 
> matter how dense the user is, that it is a different action.

The user is ME. I don't believe I'm dense. (You may have other opinions ,grin>)

>    > This is just what I would expect in a system with more than a 
>    > single window. 
> 
>    But not what you would expect in a system with a single APPLICATION. That's
>    my beef.
> 
> But, by your definition of the Mac, all programs are to be seen by the user
> as the *same* application.  

Not at all. That is not what I said. That is not what I'm talking about.
You don't seem to be clear as to what I'm talking about here.

>    > But as long as the window which has the menu bar we are talking
>    > about *has* the keyboard focus, you can use all available menu navigation
>    > methods given by the standard menu keyboard interface. 
> 
>    You can. It is quite modal, and requires a bit more cognitive effort than
>    using a mouse, but you can.
> 
> I tend to disagree here.

But you don't state why. It is modal, that's a fact. As for requiring more
cognitive effort -- that's the difference between recognition and semantic
encoding. There's more effort involved with the latter.

>    Funny. As a long-time Mac user, I can recite all the standard shortcuts 
>    from memory. And my fingers know them quite well. 
> 
> That is because of the way you learned them.  You memorized the key actions
> as 'Command' and 'Insert'.  I have not, and I don't suppose many others have,
> either.  I have learned the *actions*, and the *associations*.  Different
> things than what you seem to have memorized.

I'm not clear what you are saying here.

In order to effectively use the keyboard to invoke menu operations, you have to
be lightning fast, because the mouse is tons faster. To do that efficiently, 
you have to be able to recall the keystrokes in a blink, without thinking.

I've memorized them to this level because all my applications use the same
set of shortcuts. You and Peter and Wolfgang haven't, and you claim this is
a benefit? I must be missing something here.

>    Which is exactly the point. If you have to think about the shortcuts, then
>    you might as well use the mouse -- its faster. If you can't remember them
>    instantly, game over.
> 
> Which was exactly *his* point.  He doesn't think 'Alt-<EP>'.  He doesn't
> think at all, any more than you think 'Pull down Edit, click on Paste'.
> It is much more natural than that.

Except that it isn't. He can't even remember that it is ALT-EP. How can he
possibly think ALT-EP if he doesn't remember?

I've already, repeatedly, covered the aspect of using the mouse. OF COURSE,
you don't THINK about 'Pull down Edit, click on Paste.' You don't have to.
Using the mouse, you interact with the screen on a much lower, much more
fundamental level. You reach out and grab the Paste item, through the Edit
item. This is something you learned to do since you were about 10 months 
old. You may not even see the words "edit" or "paste", but merely recognise
them from their positions on the screen.

>    And what's the use of training your fingers to type something, if it can't
>    be used in all cases. I started working with Windows, and I got used to
>    ALT-EP for paste. I didn't like it, but I got used to it. Then I brought up
>    a dialog box. WHAMMO. ALT-EP didn't work. So much for saving time with
>    shortcuts.
> 
> I don't understand this fixation with the dialog box.  Well, Bill, since *you*
> don't seem to know why it is so important to be able to access *all* the
> menu items from within a dialog box, maybe someone else can help you out.

I NEVER SAID YOU HAD TO ACCESS ALL THE MENU ITEMS IN THE DIALOG BOX.

SHEESH! CAN'T YOU WINDOWS USERS READ????

I want to access Paste from the dialog box. It is as simple as that. And I 
can. Except that Windows is horribly inconsitant. If I learn ALT-EP for
paste, I can't use that learning for a dialog box. I have to use Shift-Ins 
(or perhaps Ctrl-V). INCONSISTANT! THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE!
GET IT STRAIGHT!

>    And if Write has a shortcut of ALT-DF to open a file, then it proves my 
>    point completely. There is no consistancy between Windows applications. The
>    correct shortcut would be ALT-FO.
> 
> I somehow doubt that Write, a MS product, violates such a fundamental aspect
> of Windows design.  Does it really, anyone?

Wolfgang gave that as an example. I did not make it up.

>    >>> They're learned automatically as you use the system... 
>    > 
>    >>NOT!
>    > 
>    > Why not? I've learned them automatically, while I used the system, and
>    > I know a lot of people who learned them while they used the system.
> 
>    Except they don't work. So you learn them one way, then you have to go
>    back and learn the REAL shortcuts.
> 
> Huh?  The 'real' shortcuts?

For Paste, it is Shift-Ins. Perhaps Ctrl-V. That's another inconsistancy,
since MS changed the application design guidelines.

>    There's actually a large difference between a two and three key sequence. 
>    That's why I find Windows menu navigation to be cumbersome.
> 
> But they are almost all just two-keys.  You mean the Alt key too?  Hmm.

Last time I looked, the ALT key is indeed, a key.

> Well, with only Alt and one other key, you have a severely limited list
> of shortcuts, each of which must nemonically (sp?) match the action.  

Not at all. There's nothing mnemonic (spelled correctly) about Command-W,
Command-X, Command-V, Command-Z -- but every Mac users knows these operations
are Close, Cut, Paste and Undo.

Second, there's no reason not to have a limited list of shortcuts, since 
people can't reliably remember anything larger than a short (consistant) list
of operations anyway. If your menus have more than 26 items, you've got
too many items. 

The key is CONSISTANCY. 

> You get things like 'Control-V' with this.  Two action keys are actually 
> easier for me to remeber than one non-intuitive key.

Either you aren't human, or you should apply to the local college psycology
department as a permanent test subject. The truth is, it doesn't matter what
the key is, because if you have to think of mnemonics to remember the right
key, you are ALREADY behind the mouse user. You have to train yourself to
hit the shortcuts immediately.

>    On the Mac, I don't care where the Open menu is. I just hit Command-O and
>    I've got it. Under Windows, I can't be sure exactly where this menu is.
>    Is it under the File menu, where it should be? Or perhaps I'm using 
>    Write, where it falls under a different menu.
> 
> HOWEVER!  Windows also has those one-key shortcuts you so admire.  At least,
> it did the last time *I* checked.  

And that's exactly the problem. The problem is that the one-key (actually two)
shortcuts are horribly non-mnemonic (Shift-Ins for Paste? Ctrl-F4 to close a
document?) and difficult to learn. Second problem is that Windows hangs out 
those lucritive ALT-shortcuts that appear so much eaiser to learn. Last 
problem is that there's no CONSISTANCY between applications, so learning the 
shortcuts in one application doesn't help you in learning for the next
application. So you end up not learning them at all.

>    >>And as soon as you try to use one of those ALT- shortcuts in a dialog,
>    >>WHAMMO -- all that learning goes out the window.
>    > 
>    > Wrong, plain and simply. Dialog boxes have a very nice and standard
>    > keyboard interface, which includes the Alt+ letter shortcuts, of
>    > course.
> 
>    Nope. You can't do a Paste using the ALT+ shortcuts. You have to do 
>    <taking deep breath> Ctrl-Ins. 
> 
> IF the dialog box has a reason for using paste (that the programmer foresaw,
> which is a bad exception, IMO), and IF the programmer decided that you would
> use it, the Alt-keys work.

Funny. Shift-Ins (not control, my bad) works in those cases where the ALT-
key doesn't.

The problem is programmatic. With the dialog window on top, it obscures
the processing of ALT-key menu invocations, because the dialog has a control
menu of its own.

However, the real shortcuts work, because they get passed on down. 

>    Or if the application is more progressive, Ctrl-V.
> 
> Like all Mac programs ...

I didn't write the standard, Microsoft did. They stole the Mac shortcuts in
their most recent version of the Application Design Guide. So, if your 
application conforms to the latest standards, then it is more progressive.
(not because it emulates the Mac)

>    > Where do you get your information about Windows?
> 
>    From using it. ARGH!
> 
> You just told me a few posts back that you haven't used a DOS based machine
> in years.  I have the actual post still here if you would like a copy so you
> can refresh your memory...

I haven't PROGRAMMED a DOS machine in years. Right now I'm doing some test
work for Hayes Smartcom for Windows software. Despite the lousy nature of
Windows, it is still tons better than using DOS, and Smartcom for Windows
is going to be an excellent communications product.

I ran into this couldn't paste from a dialog problem within 30 minutes of
using windows. I'd almost learned how to use ALT-EP, too. Too bad I had
to unlearn it.

>    I disagree. The pointing device is a natural extension of real-world learning.
>    Keyboarding is not. I do not agree that being able to use a visual interface
>    from the keyboard is a benefit when the mechanisms to do this get in the way 
>    of other interface elements through inconsistant usage.
> 
> How does the ability to use the ALT-<> key sequences 'get in the way' of
> mousing, 

I didn't say that ALT- sequences got in the way of mousing. It gets in the
way of learning the interface, because the ALT shortcuts are not applied
consistantly.

>    If ALT-EP worked even from a dialog box, I'd feel better. I'd still think of
>    the three key shortcuts as cumbersome, but they wouldn't be so awful. They 
>    don't.
> 
> This fixation, and still no explanation of what you mean ...

I've explained again and again. Do you understand now?

>    This assertion is exactly contrary to my experience as a Macintosh user.
>    I remember all the standard shortcuts BECAUSE I use them. Either the
>    longer Windows shortcuts aren't used (and hence aren't learned), or the
>    complexity of the cumbersome nature of the interfaces bars learning.
> 
> Huh?  You've been listenning in on too many discussions of fuzzy logic, my
> friend.  How can you go from that (faulty) assertation to that obviously
> false conclusion?

Explain: 
Which assertion is faulty?
Which conclusion is false?

And I'll be glad to explain how I arrived that those conclusions.

>    > Do you actually *read* the menu bars of your applications, each
>    > time you select a menu entry? Probably not. 
> 
>    The beauty of a visual user interface is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO. You
>    don't have to READ just RECOGNIZE.
> 
> That was his point.

And mine. TO use the ALT- shortcuts, you do have to READ the menu items while
you are learning those shortcuts. 

>    In a CONSISTANT visual user interface, it is even better, because recognition
>    is faster since you already know what to expect!
> 
> Agreed.   don't see anyone here arguing the benifits of inconsistency.

Peter, Wolfgang and YOU apparently are.

>    > You read it once, or twice and remember it by its various attributes 
>    > (mostly: position) and use it blindly, later.
> 
>    Yup. And this is exactly why mousing is faster than keyboard shortcuts.
> 
>    If you and Peter are actually trying to tell me that you use Windows by
>    pressing Alt, then thumbing through the menus by pressing the arrow keys,
>    or by looking at the menu items and typing the appropriate shortcut, then you
>    are TONS slower than users using the mouse. The comparative cognitive load
>    is immense.
> 
> Yes, if they were 'thumbing through the menus' with the arrow keys, reading
> every line, they *would* be slower.  Nothing they have said has indicated
> this to be true, however.  Why do you imagine that they do this?  Do you?

Note the 'If'. I don't know what they are doing. I was hoping that my 
post would extract from them exactly what they are doing. But from the wording
of Wolfgang's post, it appeared that is exactly what he is doing.

>    Actually, I usually can. But that's just me. 
> 
> Because you are memorizing names rather than actions.

First, I don't understand that distinction you are making between names and
actions.

Second, I responded to Wolfgang in that way because I feel that my 
ability to recall subitems in a discussion is extrodinary, and not typical
of a user.

>    > Of course not, and, more important, it doesn't
>    > prove anything whether you do it or not. 
> 
>    It is important. The issue at hand was the CONSISTANCY of the user 
>    interface. I put for the example of Windows shortcuts as an INCONSISTANCY.
>    If you can't remember the shortcuts, it proves the inconsistancy.
> 
> ???

QED.

>    > Menu and dialog navigation, as implemented by Windows, works in a 
>    > very similar way. When you start, you actually read whats written
>    > in the menus or on the buttons. But if you have selected an entry
>    > for a few times by typing the underscored letters you are looking
>    > at, it becomes a mechanical action, which doesn't require you
>    > to read the menu or the dialog box, anymore. 
> 
>    Until you try that action in a dialog box. Or switch to another application
>    that uses different menu structure. Then -- WHAMMO. All your learning goes
>    down the drain.
> 
> Honestly, Bill.  You are pushing this dialog box thing way too far.  If you
> can't explain *exactly* what you mean by it, I suggest you drop it.  

DAMMIT! I've explained this thing at least six times now. Go back and read
my previous posts. I've explained it EXACTLY, and REPEATEDLY. SHEESH!

> I would rather you explain yourself, because it sounds like it'll be a 
> good one ...

It is a good one. It shows the inconsistancy of Windows UI. 

>    > You recognize the menu or the dialog box as a whole, and react with the 
>    > one or two letter sequence you have assoziated with the one or two
>    > word (i.e. command) sequence which describes what you intend to do.
> 
>    It is faster to do this with the mouse. With the mouse, you just reach out
>    and grab the item you see. With the keyboard, you have to recall, then
>    synthesize the appropriate key, then you have to type it. By the time you've
>    done all this, the mouse user has already grabbed his mouse, grabbed the
>    item on the screen and returned to the keyboard for the next thing. Faster.
> 
> Now Bill.  You just assertained that low-level brain activity is faster than
> high-level.  Now you're saying that the mouse is faster, but reason it out
> by using higher brain functions (grabbing, image recognition).  This is
> necessary with a mouse because not everything is in exactly the same place
> all the time.  The 'E' key never moves from its spot above the 'd' on
> my keyboard.  I don't have to do any of this recognition of grabbing.  The
> Alt-key shortcuts, by your own definitions, should be faster.

You are correct that you don't have any RECOGNITION to do. You do have to
perform a RECALL in order to KNOW to press the E key, however. And that
is the problem. People are TONS better at RECOGNITION than they are at
RECALL. You can recognize faces before your eyes can properly focus. But
how long until you master language, much less have sufficient dexterity to
type or have enough skills to recall words, much less command keys from
those words. These skills come much later.

You have to measure the entire cycle. You can't just measure the time needed
to type "E" and compare it with the time needed to mouse to "Edit". You are
comparing the wrong things. You have to include all the COGNITIVE time as 
well. 

Low-level functions, such as mousing, require very low cognitive load. So,
they happen faster. High-level functions, such as recalling the correct
command key, require more time. Once the recall is complete, then you can
strike the right key (or keys) faster, for sure -- but you have to perform
the recall.

>    >>This is also the problem with OS/2 PM and Windows. There's no consistancy
>    >>in the UI design. (Gee, we've come full circle)
>    > 
>    > Well, indeed. The Macintosh UI is different from PM and Windows, and
>    > more consistent, often by omission. This doesn't always make it 
>    > better, imho.
> 
>    IMHO, Consistancy is lots more important than feature count.
> 
> I don't know if I would quite go that far, but the two both definitely rank up
> there at the top of the usability charts.

The Macintosh UI moreso than Windows, that's for sure.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy