From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Only God Can Help Us!
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:09:40 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

ck10322@china.medtronic.com (Cameron Kaszas) writes:


Pardon the juxtaposition of your text, but I wanted to make it easy to
ignore the Biblical quotes if people desire...


>But that is just my feeling, I don't think I
>have the right to force others to agree and act accordingly.  I would 
>not want someone of another religion telling me what I can and can't 
>do! 
This is a perfectly defendable Christian stance.  We're supposed to use our
powers of persuasion (the word) not laws (the sword) to bring people into
Christianity.  If people do not wish to follow the rules, that is between
them and God.

In addition, as Christians, we are required to follow the laws of man
(Romans 13), and to only violate them when we would be personally forced 
by them to violate God's laws (Acts 4:13-20, 5:27-39).

>Now, my problem.  My closest friends, and even my wife, don't like
>my "new" views on this matter.   
Neither do mine.

>Since I deeply respect these people,
>and we stand side by side on most other matters, I am worried that
>I have somehow been led astray since stumbling onto this network,
>and being exposed to more secular/liberal/radical thought?  
Hardly.  One cannot be 'led astray' simply by being exposed to views which
do not agree with ones own.  Wisdom is not something to be discouraged.
What is to be done is to compare your views with the view of the Bible, and
see how it stands.

It is perfectly acceptable, and in my opinion proper, for a Christian to be
personally against abortion, yet be pro-choice.  I certainly have been
infulenced by the libery aspects of our country.  But I am also influenced
by my religion.  I try my best to keep my religion out of my politics.
That's why I'm generally libertarian : I'll leave everybody alone if they
leave me alone.  Non-interference with my lifestyle.  No imposition of some
state-ordained religion.  And in return, I won't try to impose mine.
Evangelize, yes.  Impose?  No.

>I believe God does want
>us out there doing everything we can to let people know that he created
>the z/e/f for a reason, and he will take care of everyone involved,
>and that his will is that every z/e/f to be carried to term. 
This is correct, but again, it is not up to us to make such moral decisions
for other people.  They must make their decisions, and, in the opinion of
the Bible, stand in judgement for them.

>I guess my main question is how does he want us to do this?  Should
>it be in our political agenda? 
Christians should not have a political agenda!  Not at least because of
being Christian.  Everyone has some kind of agenda, just don't get bogged
down in trying to force some particular set of views on the entire country.
That's my problem with most of my evangelical friends.

And yes, I am closer to evangelical than anything, although I can't fit
that mold exactly.  I just don't think it's my place to put anyone into a
mold I've created (or at least adopted).

Now, on to your point about God & abortion...

[This is the juxtaposition]
>However,
>it is inconceivable TO ME that it is God's will for any abortion 
>to ever take place. 

Here is some information from the Bible you might want to think about.  It
appears that in at least one circumstance, God not only allows, but insists
on it.

=================
Here are the abbreviations used for Biblical citations:

   NIV  - New International Version, (International Bible Scoiet), Zondervan
   KJV  - King James Version, Oxford Press
   NRSV - New Revised Standard Version, Oxford University Press
   NASB - New American Standard Bible, (Ryrie Study Bible), Moody Press

If citations are presented from other versions, I will happily include
them.  Please provide the name of the publisher and the version.
=================
Here's some more information on Bible Citations...

Text Notes are commentary on alternate translations, differing authorities
or unclear verses.  They represent scholarly opinion of alternate readings.

Study Notes are the opinion of the author as to the meaning, message,
symbolism and apllication of the verses.  They are certainly colored by
the authors own biases.

Numbers 5:

    "(27)And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come
     to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done tresspass against her
     husband, the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and
     become bitter, and her belly shall swell and her thigh shall rot: and
     the woman shall be a curse among her people.  (28)And if the woman
     be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall
     conceive seed." [KJV]

   "(27)If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband,
    then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it 
    will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell
    and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her
    people.  (28)If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is
    free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to
    have children." [NIV]

    NIV Text Notes: (27)OR...suffering; she will have barrenness and a 
                    miscarrying womb

    NIV Study Notes: 5:21 The figurative language here (and in vv. 22,27) 
                     speaks of the loss of the capacity for childbearing 
                     (AND, IF PREGNANT, THE MISCARRIAGE OF THE CHILD).  This 
                     is demonstrated by the determination of the fate of a 
                     woman wrongly charged (v 28).  For a woman in the Near 
                     East to be denied the ability to bear children was a 
                     personal loss of inestimable proportions.  Since it was 
                     in the bearing of children that the woman's worth was 
                     realized in the ancient world, this was a grievous 
                     punishment indeed.  [Emphesis mine]

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled
     herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings
     the curse shall enter into her and shall cause bitter pain, and HER
     WOMB SHALL DISCHARGE, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become
     an excretion among her people.  (28)But if the woman has not defiled
     herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive
     children." [NRSV] [Emphesis mine]

     NRSV Study Notes: 5:23-28 The oath is folloed by the drinking of the 
                       'water that brings the curse (v18).  It was believed 
                       that if a person were guilty this potion would have 
                       effects which would signify the Lord's verdict of
                       judgement (Ex32:20,35).

    "(27)When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if
     she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that
     the water which brings a curse shall go into her and cause bitterness,
     and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the
     woman will become a curse among her people.  (28)But if the woman
     has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and
     conceive children." [NASB]

     NASB Study Notes: 5:11-31  These verses describe the "law of jealousy," 
                       whereby a woman suspected of marital unfaithfulness 
                       had to be brought to the priest for trial before the 
                       Lord (v16), who alone could reveal the truth of the 
                       matter.  The ritual of verse 23 symbolically 
                       transferred the written words of the curse to the 
                       water.  Verse 27 MAY INDICATE A MISCARRIAGE ('waste 
                       away' literall means 'fall'; see Job 3:16, where
                       a similar Hebrew word refers to untimely birth).  The 
                       practice here prescribed, apparantly used only in the 
                       wilderness, prevented jealousy and suspicion from 
                       corrupting family and community life.  God must have 
                       miraculously controlled the results whenever this test
                       was used.  [Emphesis mine]

So, we have various translations that use generally the same language.
It appears that ALL of the translations agree generally, and that the 
three modern translations all agree as to the meaning of the text.  The 
NRSV actually puts the direct meaning into the main text, the NIV puts 
it as a Text Note (as an alternate translation), and the NASB notes this 
in the Study Notes.

Although some may claim that the NRSV is a 'liberal' translation, the
NIV is most certainly not, nor is the NASB, especially since the notes 
are from Dr. Charles Caldwell Ryrie, and is published by Moody Press.  
For those who don't know, Moody Bible Institute is VERY conservative, 
some would say extremely so.

In addition, I have chcked numerous commentaries, including Wycliff, which
all seem to agree.

It seems clear that at least in this situation, God not only permits, 
but directly causes a miscarriage.  These verses descrive an induced 
miscarraige.  There is not escaping this.

Note well that in addition to a miscarriage, the woman will no longer
be able to conceive...

 -Steve Adams
-- 
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558

--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558