From: t60bss9@mp.cs.niu.edu (Bijoy Sagar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: India-D digest Wed, 30 Dec, 1992
Date: 30 Dec 1992 21:38:58 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


From: uma@orion.stjude.org (Uma Ramamurthy)
Subject: India-D Digest - Dec 30
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:15:51 GMT
Reply-To: The India Interest Group at UKCC <INDIA-D@UKCC.BITNET>
Distribution: niu
Organization: Mailing list <INDIA-D@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU>

India Interest Group Digest Wed, 30 Dec 92       Volume 2: Issue  61

Today's Topics:

      Discussion Topics
      Dividing India ...
      How about a new topic?
      India Today subscription info
      Language debate
      Major Doubts...! Please Help
      Meaning of "hindu"
      NRI Accounts : Part-3
      Please stop language war
      Regarding "Let's project her beautiful parts !"
      Religion
      Root cause: Frustration or Fanaticism ?
      Star - A Poem
      Stocks and Bonds : Part-3
      Swastika (2 msgs)
      Truth beckons us all....(part 2 of 2)
      What is an Indian ???

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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 18:49:45 -0500 (EST)
From: REDDY@ECSUC.CTSTATEU.EDU (Madhu Reddy, Data Center)
Subject: Discussion Topics

Dear Netters,

Let us not waste our time in discussing/contributing on silly topics
and let's start a thought provoking contributions/discussions. Remember,
ignorance is self-inflicted weakness. Let us educate ourselves. To
begin this process, I am recommending to have a discussion on the
following topis:

1). What is a Indian ? (Views on being an Indian)
2). What is a Nation ( Views on India as a nation)
3). Whats is a secularism ??
4). Indian Educational System
5). New Economic thought
6). Islamazation of India
7). Foreign Policy
8). Hindu Rashtra
9). Indian Communism
10). Congress idealogy  vs  BJP idealogy

After finishing these topics, we can add more to this list. Suggestions
are always welcom.

Madhu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:01:25 EST
From: Narayanan <BALASUB@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Dividing India ...

Dear friends:
  Some time ago I raised the issue of dividing India into North and
South (remember!). The objective was to debate the pros and cons of
such an issue. I really came to know how people feel about it. I am
happy to know that almost everyone wanted India as a single country.
Being Tamil Brahmins, we were 'hated' by non-brahmins (atleast
politically) so I would be the last to ask for India to be divided.
  Now a new issue has arisen!!! THE HINDI/NON HINDI ISSUE.
  Let me attack this issue from a totally different angle as I see it.
The world is 'shrinking' everyday. A smaller place to live in.
How can people  coexist and  live happily if we still are divided
by the language we speak, by the different race we belong to, etc.
There has to be a beginning. It has to start somewhere ...  The feeling
of ONENESS that we belong to a common planet Earth.
  I am very sure even the Japanese would be better off in the long run
by adopting English as a medium of communication.
This should start by adopting one language for communication,
having one common culture, and MOST IMPORTANT supporting inter-racial,
inter-caste marriages. All these would breed ONE healthy common
united people of the world.
  I perfectly understand that this is going to take a long time and sounds
utopian too!!!  It has to come one day. I certainly  can't imagine
a world after another 2000 years still divided by language, race, etc.
Then the very purpose of our existence is waste. Are we created to fight
against one another? A nature devoid of beauty ?
  So let us start this in India. Let us have Hindi as our national
language. We have to sacrifice a little bit to make the world a
better place for our sons and grandsons.
  A word to my north Indians. The best way you can make a person
learn Hindi is by accepting him as one among you and making him realize
what unity can do for him. Ultimately English is important, but I am
ready to learn Hindi to begin a unity effort at home.(India)
When I first came here I was very biased against blacks. This
biasness has been planted in us by the British who view themselves as
beautiful. Friends, we should redefine beauty. I have changed a lot
and become a lot mature in these two years in the U.S.A. Have you?

Thanks
Narayanan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 10:15:24 PST
From: groucho!kanchi!bala@uu.psi.com (Bala Parthasarathy)
Subject: How about a new topic?

  I have been a reader of this newsgroup and soc.culture.indian
for a long time now. Except on rare occasions, I find that we are all
full of opinions and ideas from Hindu Fundamentalism to Bindis but
very little suggestions on ANY CONCRETE action!
  I think we exhibit a trait, which the famous Tamil poet
Bharathiyar once described as "Vai chollil veeraradi"
(heroes in idle conversation). We are experts in having strong
views on things and translating them into long verbose mail messages.
  Before you start typing your flame mail, let me clarify what I
am saying - discussions, debates and freedom of speech are all
absolute pre-requisites but they are NOT enough. I would like
to see them SUPPLIMENTED by some action.
  Having used the word "action" 2 times, let me qualify what I mean
by it. This is what I could come up with for myself:
- Allot a certain portion of your income every month to the charity
  of your choice in/for India. Even $10 or $20 a month is a lot of
  of money.
- Spend a certain amount of time every week/month with organizations
  which do what you consider as useful work
- Participate in pro-India lobbying in the US political system
- AVOID/MINIMIZE taking electronic goods, gold, hard currency
  (and exchange in black) to India - no matter what your
  rationalization is, it is illegal and if you feel so strongly
  against the law, do something about changing the law!
  What each person does and how much is obviously subjective and best
decided individually. I know that there are many netters who are doing
some serious work and can come up with better ideas and I suggest we
start more discussions on those things.
  I am not trying to be supercilious - I really feel that whatever
little I do is not enough and I should do more. It is just
that it is very easy to carry intellectual discussions which are more
interesting and forget about implementation details!
  If you are thinking of flaming me, pause for a minute and think
what you have done in the last 1 year has improved anything for anyone
in India even infinitesimally (sorry - that check to your kid brother
for his birthday does not count :-) ). If your list is empty and
your reaction towards my mail is not out of guilt resulting from
that, go ahead and flame me! And of course, if your list is substantive
and you feel I have written something wrong or have other concrete
suggestions, I welcome your criticism!

Bala (bala@dl.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 10:15:49 PST
From: "sshukla.US1" <sshukla@us.oracle.com>
Subject: India Today subscription info

Hi,

Recently Murthi Vemuganti was enquiring about subscribing India
Today Magazine.

For one year subscription of India Today (24 issues) a US bank
cheque for $49, favouring LIVING MEDIA INDIA LIMITED, should
be mailed to Living Media India Limited, 404, Park Avenue South,
New York, NY-10016 along with your name and address.

This information is as per latest issue of India Today magazine.
It may take 4-6 week to start subscription.

Shiv K. Shukla

------------------------------

Date: 28 Dec 92 10:01:00 +1000
From: RAWAT_VIPIN@tandem.com
Subject: Language debate

Hello,

One statistics in the context of language debate -
Nearly 70% of indians can speak/understand Hindi. Not even 10%
can do this in any other language.

vipin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 20:51:06 GMT
From: pkumar@blaca1.SINet.SLB.COM
Subject: Major Doubts...! Please Help

Hi,
    Sharing some thought about language issue.
    The place  where I am staying , I can find 'Biharies',
'Gujjus','Mallus', 'Tamilians','Kannadigas' and 'Gulties'
along with 'Chinguus'.   I heard Chinguus are from China,
Biharies  from  Bihar, Gujjus  from Gujarath, Mallus from
Kerala, Tamilians from Tamil Nadu,Gulties from Andhra and
Kannadigas from Karnataka.
   I don't know if there is any Indian around !
   Sometime back I was invited to a party which is suppose
to be for Indians. Since I was eager to find some  Indians
around this place,I attended the party. But friends, I was
cheated :
   I found one group of people speaking Telugu, another
group speaking Kannada and so on. Knowing only English
and one more language called Malayalam( which I don't
want to speak here)  I had to just sit at one corner and
watch TV with low-volume.
   Is it that India cease to exist already ???!
   Major doubts !

P.V.PRASANNAKUMAR

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 08:56:38 -0500
From: vijay varadarajan <vvara00@mik.uky.edu>
Subject: Meaning of "hindu"

The actual derivation of the word "Hindu" is from ,the mother
of all languages-Sanskrit. It is "Himsayaat dhooyathe yasmaath, Hindoo
ithe abhidhiyathe" i.e one who shudders at the thought  of violence
is called a Hindu. Hence any peaceful, maturedly thinking denizen of
the earth may be called a Hindu.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 00:12 GMT
From: dsah <NBTORRANCE/NBPOST/dsah%Netbase_Computing@mcimail.com>
Subject: NRI Accounts : Part-3

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DIFFERENT TYPES OF ACCOUNTS THAT CAN BE OPENED:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-Resident (External) Account (NRE)

You can open NRE Account in Indian Rupees by sending remittance from
abroad. You can open any one or more types of deposit accounts such as (i)
Current, (ii) Savings, and (iii) Term Deposit in the form of:-
   (a) Fixed Deposit, (b) Reinvestment Plan Deposit (Fixed Deposit with
compound interest for fixed period not exceeding ten years, with interest
together with Principal payable on maturity), (c) Recurring Deposit, (d)
Cash Certificates (Fixed Deposit with compound interest for period exceeding
ten years, with interest together with Principal payable on maturity).
   You can avail of nomination facility freely. The banks can keep your
Term Deposit receipts in safe custody free of charge. You can also avail of
safe deposit locker facility at a number of their branches. There is no
restriction on withdrawals from these accounts for local disbursements.
   You can grant power of attorney to any Resident to operate account for
local disbursement if you so wish. Should you require any regular payment to
be effected to any of your relatives or parents or to pay premium to LIC of
India or any other instalments, they will be pleased to accept your standing
instruction and effect the payment as you may desire.
   Special facilities are also granted in case of investment in (i) Sick
Industries, (ii) Export Activities in Free Trade Zones and Export-Oriented
Units (EOUs).

Foreign Currency Non-Resident Account (FCNR)

   You can open your FCNR Account in US Dollar, Pound Sterling, D. Mark
and Jap. Yen. Under this scheme, you avoid exchange risks. This account can
be (i) Fixed Deposit Account, (ii) Reinvestment Plan Account, or (iii) Cash
Certificate Account. If you wish to receive interest at half yearly
intervals on your Fixed Deposits, you can do so without any problem. The
interest you earn can be sent to you or to your banker in any country of
your choice. You can get back the principal with interest accrued thereon in
the currency in which deposits are made or in any other permitted
currencies.

...To be continued...
Dinesh Sah.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:56:05 -0500
From: sangames@ecl1.uri.edu (Subbu)
Subject: Please stop language war

Hello,
The war over language issue has been going on for a very long time. Its a
pity that people like us are fighting over which language is better!!
Does this serve any purpose? Its merely a waste of time and space in a
forum like INDIA-D. I doubt as to how many people really read through all
this stuff.At least I use page-down key if I see such trivial discussion.
Language is a means of communication. Every language has its own charm
and also it looks crap for a person not knowing the language. So why
fight over it.
I request fellow netters to send articles in English only so that everybody
can read and enjoy(!) it. Where other languages are concerned people could
send a translation in English and help everybody read it. This way this
could be resolved ,isnt'it?
Bye,
subbu

ps: Hope to see saner discussion on the digest.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 07:21:44 PST
From: Avinash Patil <patil@cfsctc.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Regarding "Let's project her beautiful parts !"

  Mr. kannan@engr.LaTech.edu (Venkatesh Kannan) writes in his posting:
>is much much great!. It has very strong cultural background! Life in India is
>very peaceful for an individual. One need not be afraid when he will be mugged
>at gunpoint in the night. In India a girl can walk peacefully at 9.00 pm.
  I very much wanted to believe statements like this but sadly my friend who
returned from India few weeks back was telling me the story of his "mugging"
at a gunpoint which happened in Bombay at 11AM. He and his wife were travelling
in a private car when a passing van stopped them and men from the van broke
windshield and window glasses of their car and stole my friend's briefcase. One
of the people attacked them had a gun and fired it few times. Fortunately no
one was injured. This happened near Bandra at 11AM in morning about 8 weeks
ago. Times of India published the story.
  I won't go in details of how later the Police investigation did (not) took
place and the way my friend was treated by the investigating police staff.
Unfortunately their (Indian) passports were in the bag which was stolen and the
Bombay passport office gave my friend very hard time to replace those documents
within short period of time. Contrast this with experience another of my friend
had with American consulate in Paris where she was stranded without passport
for her US born daughter. The American consulate issued passport to the child
in one day upon my friend's husband faxing them the child's birth certficate
from here.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 14:23:09 EST
From: sray@betty.Prime.COM ( Subharanjan Ray )
Subject: Religion

Hi netters !

How about putting forth a proposal to ISO/ANSI etc ..
Lets have an International Standard religion. Lets
then banish all the other self righteous and intolerant
religions from the face of the earth along with their
place of worship. Preserve the temples only as historical
monuments. No more worshipping of non standard gods ;-)

Ray.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 13:46:16 EST
From: "Sanjay K. Gupta" <gupta@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com>
Subject: Root cause: Frustration or Fanaticism ?

   There has been lot of sentimental outpouring on this net about the
imminent demise of moribund secularism in India. But, also, there has
been wise efforts to get to the root of the problem. A wide section of
net-writers seem to share that the root cause is political exploitation.
Political exploitation, as a netter said yesterday, POLITICIANS MAY
EXPLOIT THIS FEELING, BUT THAT CANNOT DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THE FEELING
ITSELF.
   What has come to generate that feeling? I quote an interview published
recently in the leading french newspaper 'Le Figaro':"This shows to what
extent that which I had felt in advance was true: Islam is a taboo which
you can not defy unpunishedly. Today there is something very disturbing
for the foundations of our Republic, viz. for secularism... It is possible
for a top civil servant to doubt Ram's divinity without creating a ripple,
but it is impossible to speak of Prophet Mohammed...  [I have been hit by]
not a law, but a collective and almost unanimous observed taboo. This taboo
is not typical for the Left... I have found out that there is of course a
Leftist pro-Islamism linked with the post colonial complex, but also a
rightist pro-Islam... There has been strong pressure from Islamic embassies.
That this pressure exists, show to what extent. Islamic circles are
incapable of listening to criticism".
   To the question whether democracy is lacking in aggressiveness, he
replied: "Rather,it lacks courage..  My book, it is nothing but the right
of intellectual intervention. But because it concerns Islam, it is deemed
insupportable. There are double standards at work." He compares with similar
topics:"This book is not more scandalous than those I have published about
Hinduism, about Israel, or about the art of government. I realised I was
touching on a taboo, but I didn't know it was that strong." Who do you think
was this person? Must be a RSS/VHP/BJP variety writer? Just replace the word
Christianism for Hinduism, Christ for Ram, and this is exactly what
Jean-Claude Barreo, a french civil servant, who was sacked in Nov '91 after
violent protest for using the word "archaic" for Islam, said in his interview.
   Those who are interested in reaching the root of the problem should also
explore this sentiment. Isn't it the same frustration Mr. Chatterjee, an
upright IAS officer and 1966 batch topper expressed when he resigned last
year in disgust against the accusation of being Hindu fanatic.

Sanjay K. Gupta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 15:39:20 EST
From: srsurapa@mtu.edu (SRINIVAS SURAPANANI)
Subject: Star - A Poem

"Twinkle Twinkle little star        | One such Sun,glowed in red
 how I wonder what you are"         |  showering its light and heat
 ran the jingle                     |  on nine little sons
 from the ages of BC and AD         |  going round and round
 to the present times               |  trying to shun the fiery glow
                                    |  with their moons, so cool,
So the cowboy looked at the sky     |  that they sometimes call them half
 and wondered out aloud             |  and sometimes full
 of what it could be                |
 as the cows grazed by              | But my brethren,
 unmindful and uncaring             |  all is not rock, fire and ether
 in peace with nature and mind      |  as there is more to it than it meets
                                    |  the eye, as in Astronomy and Astrology
There was a bigbang                 |  for they can chart the course of your
 and out popped a big mass,         |  destiny, of what you were and what you
 a whole new universe of            |  will be, from the past to the future
 galaxies and constellations        |
 with tiny asterisks and            | So now you know friends
 big black holes                    |  what the stars are made of
                                    |  not carbon or hydrogen
The mass appeared so black and blue |  helium or nitrogen
 that the tiny tidbits sprinkled in |  but little burning souls
 the mass, sparkled like little     |  away from your reach
 diamonds, while the holes          |  only within the grasp of your dreams
 disappeared, shunning and shying   |  shining in the dark
 away from the shining stars        |  with sparkle and glitter
 sucking up any light               |  pure and unsoiled
 which is showered upon             |  loved by one and all
                                    |  from BC and AD to time eternity
While some stars formed into packs  |
 and groups from big bear to        |         Srini Surapanani
 southern cross the others moved on |
 comets and asteroids alike         | (The Cowboy from the land of holy cows
 with occasional shooting stars     |        cows and magic fakirs)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 00:14 GMT
From: dsah <NBTORRANCE/NBPOST/dsah%Netbase_Computing@mcimail.com>
Subject: Stocks and Bonds : Part-3

COMMON STOCK
   When thinking about "investing", most people think of common stock
(CS). A share of CS represents a PROPORTIONAL OWNERSHIP INTEREST in a
corporation. If a company has 1000 shares of stock outstanding, and you own
10 of those shares, you own 10/1000th (1/100th) of the company. A company
can change the number of shares outstanding, either by selling additional
shares or by buying back and canceling some of the shares previously issued.
In either case, your proportional interest in the company also changes.
   The characteristics of CS are:
   - LIMITED LIABILITY : Investors cannot lose more than 100% of their
investment; the worst that can happen is that the value of the stock can go
to zero. No matter how much the company loses or how many of the company's
bills go unpaid, the common stockholders, despite being the company's
owners, cannot be held personally liable, as, a corporation is a separate
legal entity under the law.
   - VOTING PRIVILEGES : Common stockholders (CSHs) usually have the right
to vote on important corporate matters. Most corporations are run as
democracies with a "one-share/one-vote rule". For the sake of efficiency and
expediency, the share owners do not vote directly on every issue; instead,
they elect a BOARD OF DIRECTORS (BOD) to represent them. The board, acting
on behalf of the CSHs, hires managers to operate the company. Most corporate
actions require only the approval of a majority of the board of directors.
   - CLAIMS IN BANKRUPTCY : CS is the security having the "least
priority". If the company falls on hard times, the first expense that is cut
back is the dividend payments to the CSHs. If the company goes bankrupt, all
of the company's creditors, bondholders, and managers are paid off before
the common SHs receive a penny/schilling/paise/yen...! As an owner, a SH is
the last to get paid.
   - DIVIDEND POLICY : Corporations make dividend payments (profit
distributions) to their CSHs at the pleasure of the BOD. They decide whether
the company can afford to make a profit distribution, and how large a
distribution to make. Companies, in different countries, make their dividend
payments in different number of periods. In India it is half-yearly, while
it is quarterly in States.

...To be continued...
Dinesh Sah.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 14:08:14 MST
From: skunjibe@NMSU.Edu
Subject: Swastika

Swastika symbol used by Nazis may be the symbol of their
secret service SS, superimposed over one another at an
angle ????

Only guessing

Sudeesh Kunjibettu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 15:03 EDT
From: SHARMA@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
Subject: Swastika

What is the truth about the Swastik? -- asked the Netter, but the
questioner places the claims upside down ( no pun intended ), i.e.,the
so called mirror image is the real Swastik used in India -- at least
in the northern part.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 11:17 CST
From: SXVEF@basin.crc.uno.edu
Subject: Truth beckons us all....(part 2 of 2)

     In an earlier edition I had reproduced an abstract of a speech by
Mr. Nani Palkhivala which I thought was very relevant for us indians today.
The first part of my annexure to it was published thereafter...Here is the
second and concluding part...
THE TRUTH BECKONS US ALL- A CLARION CALL TO THE YOUNG AND EDUCATED
     The party or forum we enter into is not as important as our very entry.
We need to try and gain entry at whatever level - the parliament, the
legislature, the municipalities and local governing bodies. The exact place,
level and timing of entry may vary from person to person depending on their age
experience, and sphere of influence. Each person or group may adopt a different
strategy to do it. The important point is to enter, at some early stage in life
and in hordes, so as to make our presence felt.
     It is then necessary for us young and educated, to use all the skills and
dexterity - if necessary, be of a conniving nature - at our disposal to try and
reach the higher echelons of political power..with one single minded goal:
to provide integrity and dedicated service at the top. Also it is important for
each of us, to make this a full scale marketing effort in schools and colleges
across India - wherever our domain of influence lies - to motivate as many edu-
cated youngsters as possible, into entering public life,in order to cleanse it.
     The metamorphism will admittedly be slow and painful. But we need to do it.
With one single minded determination: We can do it. Without these steps being
taken, politics in India will always remain a dirty word and our discussions
on important issues will mean nothing but uninfluential gibberish. What we need
is action: affirmative action, and public life is where it all begins.
     The Mahatma had two dreams in his life. His first dream - the liberation
from British Rule - was fulfilled but his second dream; to liberate all Indians
from oppression, injustice, inequity, inequality, discord and disharmony,
remains unfulfilled.
     The least we as young Indians can do to repay the debts we owe to him and
to all the freedom fighters who got us that independence is to try our best to
make his second dream come true. Perhaps we may never live to see the light at
the end of the tunnel but the important point is to try our best and give it
our best shot. So the clarion call for all youngsters keen on changing things
in India, is to enter public life.
     After all, how long can we derive our satisfaction from just good fun,
good food, clothing and shelter..lets stop the escapism...lets stem the rot...
lets set the ball rolling...the truth beckons us all!!

Thanks for the patient reading,  Sincerely,   Shankar V. Nathan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:12:53 -0500 (EST)
From: REDDY@ECSUC.CTSTATEU.EDU (Madhu Reddy)
Subject: What is an Indian ???

For me Indian or India represents Hindu culture. Indian, Hindu, Bharat or
Aryavartha words are synonyms. Indians or Bharateeyas or Hindus are one and
same. The word "Hindu" does not mean only a religious faith just like Islam or
Christianity. "Hindu" denotes the national way of life here. It is a national
connotation. Before the advent of the British, this country was known as
Hindusthan and all the nationals as Hindus. Only the British gave the new name
"INDIA" to this country and the word "Indian" came to be used in place of
"HINDU". Even today the word Hindusthan and Hindu are often used with a
national connotation. For example, the first nationalist daily from Madras
started in the last century was named "The Hindu". Many public sector
industrial units are named Hindusthan Aeronautics(HAL), Hindusthan Photo Films,
Hindusthan Machine Tools(HMT), etc., The seas to the south of our country is
called Hindu Maha Sagar.

Many travellers from our country who went abroad have the experience of being
addressed as "Hindus" irrespective of religion they belong to. Late Mohammed
Carim Chagla, the former Chief Justice of Bombay High Court and Education
minister in the Central cabinet wrote that he is a muslim only by religion but
by culture he is a Hindu and all muslims of this country are Hindus.

The word "Hindu" or "Indian" thus connotes, not a particular sect, a religion
or a faith but the culture, the tradition, the way of life of the people
inhabitating this part of the world from times immemorial.

Madhu

------------------------------

End of India Interest Group Digest
**********************************