HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:08:44 GMT



>In article <1992Nov17.205756.27098@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
>>In article <1992Nov13.235034.28376@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>>|> 
>>|> Fist, Israel didn't annex the West Bank. Second, the Golan and the West Bank were
>>|> lost by the Arabs in a war they started in 1967. 
>>|> 
>>
>>Thanks for the response I was wondering what had really taking place 25 years
>>ago. 

Always happy to help someone in need.

>>If Israel had not annexed the West Bank, why did Jerusalem become its
>>Capital?. You also forgot to state that it was a war Israel was praying to
>>happen.

I didn't know that praying is a crime. I didn't see anyone dead because of
praying. If it was only for the Israeli praying the West Bank and the Golan would have benn
under Arab control today.


Naftaly

----
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:25:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.211814.15938@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:
>In article <113@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>|> 
>|> Do you have proof that Israel wanted that war badly? If Israel went to war in
>|> 67 it did not need to wait for the Arabs to make a mistake. It would therefore
>|> be at war every day!
>
>Yes, the first shot was fired by Israel. Israel had ordered a pre-emptive
>strike against Syria and Egypt strictly on the basis that their was troop
>movement on those countries borders. Therefore, Israel fired the first shot
>and invaded the Golan Heights and Sinai.

	The first act of agression was committed by Egypt.  By definition 
	under international law, a blockade is both an act of aggression
	and of war.  Therefore while Israel "fired the first shot" she did
	not instigate the war.
	Also, Israel didn't open up a front against Syria until Syria
	attacked.  Israel probably planned on fighting against Syria
	since it was almost a given that Syria would join in, but she
	didn't attack Syria first.  I find your version of history 
	amusing.

	

[Theory of Israeli designs on expansion deleted since I don't know enough
to make an effective reply]

	

	Geoff

>A.Faris


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 23:32:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.200354.19516@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:

>I think it is far more difficult for Israel to annex south Lebanon due to
>western awareness that was initiated by the peace process. I personally feel
>that the Israelis' have made the biggest mistakes in the early 80s for not
>annexing south Lebanon under the Reagan administration who supported them

Don't be stupid.  Israel's greatest mistake in it's plans for
expansionism is giving the Sinai Peninsula, a land mass twice the size
of all the rest of Israel, to Egypt in return for ... peace.  Boy,
what stupid expansionist Imperialists these Israelis are....

:-)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Normand Arthur Beeline)
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:25:56 GMT

In <43773@imag.imag.fr> oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:

"   Nabeel, for G-D's sake, don't quote this poem again. 

   OK, I never quote the same thing twice, so keep your cool.
   [It is nabeel not Nabeel.]

" Anisa, you, and i,
" belong to this "sha^ab", whatever we do and whereever we go our hearts 
" are still there. People suffering in the Arab countries are not 
" strangers or alien to us, those are our families, our neighbours, and 
" our friends. We (and not "They", because we all have our roots THERE) 
" are far from being  "created to be mounted" as you suggest. Now, if you

   Ibaa, if I am similar to them, then I am included. You assume that if
some people are wrong and I am wrong in the same sense, I will say they
are wrong and I am not. Not true. _We_ are wrong!

" are interested in S&M, i suggest you suscribe to alt.sex.bondage. It's
" the best group for a "Jealous Muslim" (as you describe yourself) who 

   I am not interested in S&M, B&D, etc. And anyway, that group is no
longer carried into CU because it is "degrading to women."

" reads penthouse.

   I don't read penthouse, I don't know where you got this, but if I
see _any_ magazine/paper that carries something appealing to my passions
then I have to have it.

*norm*
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:42:15 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Nov17.205756.27098@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.235034.28376@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>|>
>|> Fist, Israel didn't annex the West Bank. Second, the Golan and the West Bank were
>|> lost by the Arabs in a war they started in 1967.
>|>
>
>Thanks for the response I was wondering what had really taking place 25 years
>ago. If Israel had not annexed the West Bank, why did Jerusalem become its
>Capital?. You also forgot to state that it was a war Israel was praying to
>happen.
>
>A.Faris

Jerusalem became Israel's capital almost immediately
following the establishment of the State.  (Her first capital was Tel
Aviv as Jerusalem was meant to be an international city under the
UNSCOP 1947 partition plan and the state was originally declared
within those borders.  When it became clear that Isreal was going to
have control over the western sector of Jerusalem, she moved her
capital up there.)  Following the Six-Day War she annexed the rest of
the city, the only part of the newly-conquered territory to be annexed.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg             |     ^
Bitnet:                      |  \-/-\-/  "He's not the messaiah.  He's a
rothberg@bimacs              |   X   X    very naughty boy."
Internet:                    |  /-\-/-\                        - Brian's Mum
rothberg@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il |     V
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:07:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.160231.12468@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
|> 
|> How can Israel divert even one drop from the East Bank?  The East Bank
|> (of the Jordan River) is on the other side of the river from the West
|> Bank  --  by definition!
|> 
|> What a dope!

The water is diverted from away from the east bank ASS HOLE.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Kahan Commission
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:30:11 CST

In article <1e4jovINN2f3@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> In article 1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>>In article <1dvk2dINN1t9@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>> Somebody asked about the recommendations of the Kahan Commission
>>> into the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla and how they compare to
>>> what actually happenned.  Here is a partial summary.
> [...summary deleted...]
>  
>>>  "An investigation which results in such 'punishments' is not 
>>>   an investigation which can be taken seriously.  It was my
>>>   introduction to a popular form of hypocrisy ...[that] a 
>>>   Lebanese friend of mine liked to call 'moral double bookkeeping'.
>>>   All the players in the Middle East do it.  They keep one set of
>>>   moral books, to show how righteous they are, to show the outside
>>>   world, and one set of moral books, which proclaim how ruthless
>>>   they are, to show each other."
>>>   [T. Freidman, From Beirut to Jerusalem, p165]
> 
>>> Sources: Freidman's book and the Kahan Commission report.
> 
>>	This quote reflects shallowness and ignorance which I 
>>	hope do not occupy the entire book.
> 
> It's a bit silly to accuse a book of shallowness on the basis of 
> one paragraph.  


	Very silly, indeed. I took pains not to do that.


As for ignorance, you can dispel that idea by 
> reading the book.  


	I tried...


Personally I think it is one of the best books
> written about the modern Middle East.


	Good for you, and perhaps you are right. Depends on the
	competition.


  It is not a history, but 
> an account of the author's experiences and impressions.


	And I maintain that the impression provided above reflects
	ignorance and shallowness.

	It is also possible that the impression was taken out of
	context (I don't know) which might explain why I didn't 
	find it to be very insightful.

	
> 
>>Noam
> 
> Brendan.



Noam 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Azeri Nuclear Weapons
Summary: CBS News Report 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:55:36 GMT

It seems last night on CBS News w/Dan Rather an Azeri nuclear threat was
reported regarding their war with the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh. 

Has anybody heard of any confirming reports from other sources? BBC has 
reported nothing of the kind for at least the past 12 hours.

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains."
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Date: 23 Nov 1992 18:43:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov22.111426.7241@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>John.Slatter@durham.ac.uk writes:
>>As to the language tests, I was told when in Tallinn this August that 
>>they are composed in such a way that many Estonians could not pass them.

I think I posted this some time ago, but it worth reposting. Several
monthes ago, Sovokinform reported :) that problem of language test was
solved in simple, genious and geniuinly Soviet way: the test certificates
were sold on every single corner for R25 (about 10 or 20 cents at that time).
I wonder if somebody can confirm or reject this.

Yury M.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.turkish
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: Helsinki Watch Report
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 19:20:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.160140.20410@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
>The following is a Helsinki Watch report on the Russian Interior Ministry
>forces and the Azeri OMON Military Forces during the late spring and summer of
>1991.

  Just a lii-i-ttle remark. First, it was not _Russian_ Interior
Ministry Forces which were engaged (on whatever side) in Karabakh mess,
but _Soviet_. Second, the "Helsinki Watch" has discredited itself
as more or less reliable source of information, by claiming some
stupid stuff about violation of minorities rights in Russia, in
particular concerning Chechens (!!!), and Meskhetian Turks (!!!),
while managing not to notice the flagrant human rights violations
in neigboring Latvia and Estonia. Third, if the "Helsinki Watch"
at least tried to make some air of objectivity, they would have
asked the witnesses from Azeri side as well.

Serega & Co
From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Date: 16 Nov 92 12:59:34 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <emu-ct08.cg.1992.1113.111726.dml0jds@vega.dur.ac.uk> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>Of course the Estonians bear a part of the blame, Jarmo. Their parliament
>votes on citizenship laws which aim to punish ex-USSR by putting extra
>obstacles in the way of ethnically Slavonic residents of the country which
>are not experienced by ethnically Estonian residents who wish to acquire
>citizenship of the new republic.

This is true in the following sense: ethnic Estonians who do not have
the Estonian citizenship and wish to obtain one are not obliged to
pass the language test, which is required for all non-Estonians wishing
to obtain the Estonian citizenship.

The obvious reason being that ethnic Estonians practically always have
the required language capabilites.

Such a liberalization is disputable, of course, but it cannot really
be considered as a "racist law enforced racially", IMHO.

>As to the language tests, I was told when in
>Tallinn this August that they are composed in such a way that many Estonians
>could not pass them.

I`m sorry, but what other incredible things were you being told :-) ?
The fact is: the language test consists of requiring the knowledge of
1500 (one thousand and five hundred) Estonian words. IMHO  
there are not many Estonians who know less than 1.500 words (provided
they are at least few years old and claim any competence in Estonian
at all).

As to the subject-name of this thread: I'd ask anyone carrying on
under "Ethnic violence in ESTONIA" to either provide examples of
ETHNIC VIOLENCE or change the subject line of their messages.

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: daniels@ih-nxt07.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel Ray Sawyer)
Subject: Re: Well, apparently we have another "revisionist" to expose: 
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:39:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.192825.7663@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
> In article <9211192205@zuma.UUCP>
> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
> 
> > In article <1992Nov18.170407.9843@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
> > 
> > >Serdar--
> > >You conveniently ignore the fact that one million (or so, I don't  
have
> > >the exact number handy) Armenians were killed by the Ottomans toward
> > >the end of World War I.  Trying to deny this is a lot like trying to
> > 
> > Oboy, oboy, oboy. Well, apparently we have another historical  
revisionist 
> > to contend with.
> 
> Serdar-- 
> 
> You still ignore this fact.  As others have pointed out on the net,
> there is incontrovertible evidence that approximately one million
> Armenians were killed by the Ottoman Empire starting around 1917.  As
> for the rest of your ad hominem attack against me -- at least I finally
> had a good laugh for once!!
> 
Well, so a million Armenians were killed by the Ottoman Empire - SO WHAT?!
It's fact - and time to get over all of this genocide crap from everyone.
If it isn't the Armenians, it's Nazi victims, or Stalin's victims, or the
Khmer Rouge, or Mao's victims or the slaughter of Native American's or
Gengis Khan's victims or whatnot.  Time to stop blabbering about all that
and LIVE for crying out loud!  And don't come back with that talk of "Well
(insert whining voice here) if we don't remember and ram it down everyones
throats everyday it'll happen again."  I have half the mind to think that
constantly making a big deal out of past wrongs actually ENCOURAGES this
stuff to happen again.

This wasn't a flame, just an opinioned wake-up call.

> --Ted Schuerzinger
> email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
> 
> "Denial is not just a river in Africa."
> (Stuart Smalley)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: alanman@sandman.cs.hut.fi (Janne Markus Kivel{)
Subject: Re: ALKSNIS threats the BALTIC states
Reply-To: alanman@niksula.hut.fi (Janne Markus Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:12:28 GMT

 verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>>> In a separate report in the BI, bylined Lisa Trei, the so-called Black
>>> Colonel gave some blood-curdling predictions. Colonel Alksnis
>>> predicted that baltics independence would last five or ten
>>> years, but would fail step by step. "That is the mild scenario.
>>> The tough scenario is similar to what happened in the
>>> Trans-Dniestr. As soon as the first shot is fired in Estonia Russia
>>> will respond.... the nationalist radicals in Estonia are doing
>>> everything possible to ensure that the shooting will begin. We
>>> are waiting for the minute when the situation will explode. It
>>> doesn't need any stirring up. Its already hot.
>
>>> We are optimistic that the future independence of Estonia will fail
>>> because it is 90 percent tied to the centre. The existing
>>> powers hope that they can still save the economy with bilateral
>>> relations with other countries but that is an illusion.. the
>>> level of integration will just force the existing powers
>>> to leave and others to take their place..."
>
>And it would be very interesting to hear someone's from Estonian side
>comments: for me Alksnis, as ever, speaks sheer truth.
>Does someone disagree?

I would like to ask what is it in Alksnis that is so appealing to you
Mr. Verbitsky? To me he's a Russian imperialist of the worst kind, mind filled
with cynicism and power-hungry schemes.

The only ones to fulfill Alksnis's prophecies are Alksnis himself and men
like him if they gain more power in Russia.

>Misha.

Janne Kivela"

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: On the subject of gays in the Army
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 04:53:36 GMT



	On the subject of the current debate on gays in Army I remembered
the following Russian story: (English version follows)


	Soldat: Tovaristch serjant, nemtsi priblizhayutsa.
	Serjant: Day im podoyti poblizhe.

	Soldat: Tovaristch serjant, nemtsi podkhodiat.
	Serjant: Podozhti estche.

	Soldat: Tovaristch serjant, nemtsi uzhe sovsem blizko.
	Serjant: A oni krasiviye?
	Soldat: Net.
	Serjant: Nu togda ogon'.
---------------------------------

	WW II. Soviet Army is in the trenches expecting the German attack.
A soldier looks through the binocular and reports to the sergeant:

Soldier: Serge, the Germans are advacning.
Sergeant: Let them come closer.

Soldier (in a minute): Serge, the Germans are advancing. 
Sergeant: Let them come closer.

Soldier: Serge, the Germans are coming real close.
Sergeant: Well ... Are they cute?
Soldier: No.
Sergeant: Well, fire then.

----------
Disclaimer: the present is just a story, no personal perceptions reflected.
From: GCTHORNE@idbsu.idbsu.edu ("Broward " The Moron " Horne")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: How Long to the Coup DeVille?
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:16:24 GMT
X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA19001; Mon, 16 Nov 92 15:16:31 -0800
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 2485; Mon, 16 Nov 92 16:19:12 MST
X-To: talk.politics.soviet.usenet

From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: How long...?
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:42:55 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

>Thanks in part to the infinite wisdom of Western heads of state, who
>for years promised to deliver aid to the faltering Soviet
>and now Russian Governments, and who finally pledged $24 billion
>in economic assistance, but have not delivered _a single penny_,
>this day may come sooner than expected.

        Yeah, so?  Are you surprised?  Come on, let's hear an
        in-depth analysis of how long Boris has left.  I'm making
        plans for Uruguay, and I kind of would like to be gone
        before the fireworks start.

>But hey, you write like a moron anyway.
>Back to talking to the wall...

           No.  Just a cynic.  Unfortunately, I'm rarely surprised
           since I became one.  Whatever works.
From: ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Signal/noise ratio in t.p.s.
Date: 20 Nov 92 08:47:22 GMT
Organization: Computer Resources International A/S

Articles in t.p.s. received at cri.dk between Nov 18, 5pm and Nov 19, 5pm:

Total articles:      29
Mutlu/Argic garbage: 16
Mutlu-related:        6

So that only 7 articles out of 29 (less than 25%) have anything to do with
the purpose of the talk.politics.soviet group...

Long Haired Nick
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 16 Nov 1992 14:50:11 CST
From: Myself!!! <U57567@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic and His Posts

In article <vzhivov.721689700@cunews>, vzhivov@alfred.carleton.ca (Vladimir
Zhivov) says:
>
>Mr. Argic, kindly keep your propaganda to other groups (better if you
>kept it to yourself); I'm interested in current Soviet (CIS) politics,
>and don't want to see this group flooded by blitherings about "the
>evil Armenian fascists".
>                                                  Vladimir
Count me in on this, too!  I am WADING through literaly *30 or 40* of his
posts,  **IN A ROW** to get to ANYTHING else.  This SUCK!  Please, Mr. Argic,
cut it down, or move it somewhere else.  Maybe there should be a new net
group, Talk.politics.flame.Argic?
                                        Al