HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: Who is Keith Idema?  (The answer!)
From: tyger@vax2.winona.msus.edu
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:00:09 CST
Organization: Winona State University

In article <1993Jan21.182426.5157@wkuvx1.bitnet>, hargijk@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
> 
> Pardon my ignorance but who is Keith Idema? 

   Well, to avoid boring people to death, I'll give a Q&D version.
Keith Idema runs a company called 'ICS', or Idema Combat Systems.  This
company makes non-gun gear such as vests, holsters, and the like.  There
is a history to this, but I con't remember it all offhand.

Anyway, you may have heard of the 'Sargie Awards' given to players or teams
at major tournaments.  Sargie is Keith's pet dog (as much as Sargie
won't admit to the dog part...)  The Sargie awards are given to teams for 
being the 'Best Dressed' or "Coolest Team" at the tournamnent.  It's meant
to be the award given to the teams who go into a tourney knowing that they
don't have a chance in hell of winning, but carry the spirit of competition.

> Does it really matter who he is?

Well, it might.  (Mind you, this might sound like a cheap propeganda trick,
but I see where they have a point)  The basic story goes like this.

USI makes a 'featherlight' vest, that is strikingly similar to the ICS 'Wolven'
vest.  After a scuffle and a bit of annoyance, Keith decided to make a new
publication called the 'Paintball Planet' to act as a sort of whistleblower
for the industry of paintball.  (I hate calling it an industry...)

After this step was taken, several other publications had taken up the cause.
(OK, sure this is sounding like a flagwaver, but they gave me my own collumn
to play with!)

All in all, it may make a diffrence.  Then again, it might not.  Time will tell
all, I guess.  But if you have ICS gear, hold onto it with both hands.  If you
don't, you might want to try and get a vest soon.

Oh well, I'll quit wasting CPU space and let someone els do something important
like posting a way to win against semi-autos with a Splatmaster(tm)...


TTFN   					-Tyger


   
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: 585110914@vill.edu (Lonely Wolf)
Subject: guns...paintguns...laws..and physics
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Villanova University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:09:00 GMT

ok.... let us start at the end....
as far as the physics of paintballs and projectiles goes... it is not very
important to a discussion of legality/illegality of the sport or the hardware
the issue is not the functioning of the equipment, what speeds can do what
damage and how many people die from falling bullets.... THE ISSUE is one of to
what degree do we as responsible citizen choose to legally or privately
REGULATE our pastimes....

any item can become a weapon... any activity can be dangerous... UNDERSTANDING
the origins of deviant or dangerous behavior is necessary to decide if
regulation of a potentially dangerous situation should be regulated....

to begin a discussion of how this behavior comes about or comes into play in the
sport of paintball... i offer my own experience...

having a long history of participation in paintball, i have found that people
who engage in the sport are interested in the recrational aspects of the sport
and even those who are interested in only a demonstration ot their own 
"abilities" at the disadvantage of others (newbie bashing) have a few 
commonalities:    they are able to support themselves/family (students are
		 					      supported)
			they have stable job situations
			they enjoy healthy amounts of stress relief

	these aspects are extremely atypical of most classes of deviants who
might engage in dangerous behavior...which whould put the focus group of 
"paintballers" in a very low risk catagory then many sports and pastimes...
as such, i would suggest that the type of regulation needed for paintball is
SAFETY regulation and not legal restriction...
presently, safety is widely debated and is becoming uniform... five years ago...
paintball was much less safe than now, with barrel pugs, generally agreed upon 
max FPS, IPPA approved googles and a more widespread use of pads and protectors
not to mention INSURANCE...

READ THIS:  this is by no means a formal agrument or development of my position
just my gut reaction before I go to work...  If you WANT more, tell me... if 
people desire to know about the DEVIANCE aspects... i would rather post them on
something like alt.sociology... but I will Email something personally (unless
lots of people want it)
people:  FEEL FREE TO FLAME ME!  even if you agree... and we can decide for
ourselves what WE should do as a collective sport... and not what a 
disinterested Government thinks we should do....
all behavior is social, and should be treated and understood as such...
paintball or any other sport is not intrinsicly wrong... it is only what our
society choses to do with it when we find it's intrinsic value...
Coyote
Michael D. Scoble
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:01:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan24.210135.2005
Organization: Western Washington University

john@kennel.FIDONET.ORG (John Hamilton) writes:

>Friday January 22 1993 15:02, Robert Osborne wrote to All:

> RO> Anything that can fire a .68 calibre projectile at 450+ fps *IS* a
> RO> firearm.  If you put an aluminum alloy ball, marble or ball bearing in

>before you could pick yours up. By the way, a ball bearing at 450 fps will
>not kill unless it strikes the skull just so, and even then, its unlikely.
>A .22 short has far more inertial mass when it strikes than this theoretical
>ball bearing.

	.22 short bullet, 29 grains at 1100 fps = 78 ft-lbs of energy.
and 32 units* of momentum.
.36" lead ball = 70 grains, so a .68" lead ball = 472 grains.
At 450 fps this = 212 ft-lbs of energy, and 212 units* of momentum.
I don't recall the weight of steel vs lead but assuming it is 1/3,
the bearing has 71 ft-lbs of energy and 71 units* of momentum.
* some nameless unit of momentum where one unit = 
1 grain at 1000 fps.
	If this holds, then it has far _more_ momentum than a .22 
short, and only slightly less energy.  I wouldn't volunteer to 
be hit with either the .22 or the .68 bearing, as either one could 
kill a person.

	Incidentally, paintball games to me look like marathon
sessions in violating every basic gun safety rule, or perhaps 
the lab part of a class in advanced unsafe gun handling techniques.
I wouldn't want to ban it, however, and I have had fun doing it
in the past.
	Just like people understand the difference between TV and
reality, the paintballers I know understand the difference between
practicing very unsafe "gun" handling on the paintball field, and 
the very serious matter of unsafe gun handling in real life.

JD

	OB scary fantasy:   I'm sure everyone who has played has thought
of this one:  what if you were at a game and some maniac decided to
really kill people?

"but whatarya sore about?  It was a just .22 short, with barely more 
energy than a paintball"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Re: Indoor place in Lawrence Ma.
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:40:35 GMT

In article <1jvvegINNgcs@bigboote.WPI.EDU> macquivr@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (John Todd) writes:
>Has anybody been to the indoor arena in Lawrence Ma.  
>A few of my friends were thinking of checking it out but we would
>like to hear from somebody who has been there.
>- Q


  I thought it was in Lowell, but I could be wrong. You mean Canobie Park's
indoor place, I think? I've played there a lot. The people who run it
are friendly and knowledgeable. The equipment is in good shape. The
prices for paint are a bit steep (10 cents). The field itself is a
very large chunk of a warehouse with a number of obstacles in it.
I've really enjoyed playing there, all in all. Outdoor is better,
but this isn't bad at all.

  If you're planning on going up sometime and need a few more people,
let me know and I'll round up a few as well.

-David
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:54:25 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

John Hamilton (john@kennel.FIDONET.ORG) wrote:
# Friday January 22 1993 15:02, Robert Osborne wrote to All:

#  RO> Anything that can fire a .68 calibre projectile at 450+ fps *IS* a
#  RO> firearm.  If you put an aluminum alloy ball, marble or ball bearing in
#  RO> a paintball gun, cranked your gun up as high as it would go, and fired
#  RO> at a sheet of plywood, you would quickly demonstrate this to yourself.
#  RO> (Warning: don't try this at home, kids!)

# Thank goodness you are wrong. Otherwise, I'd need an FFL to buy them for
# the store, and you'd need to wait 7 days and have your background checked
# before you could pick yours up.

You don't need a FFL for a crossbow but a crossbow is classed as a
firearm under many legal definitions of the word firearm and is
a deadly weapon under any definition of the term.   What BATF
requires or doesn't require of you is meaningless.

# By the way, a ball bearing at 450 fps will
# not kill unless it strikes the skull just so, and even then, its unlikely.

I'd be interested to know you source,  or did you just make this up?

Did you know that the terminal velocity of most bullets is ~300fps.
Did you know that many people are killed each year by bullets falling
to the earth.  A bullet traveling the same speed as a paintball in a
sanctioned tournament would be deadly.

# A .22 short has far more inertial mass when it strikes than this theoretical
# ball bearing.

I'm not sure what meaning of inertial mass you are using ...

A .22 short has a 50 grain bullet and muzzle velocity of ~900fps.
My .68 ball bearing would be >400 grains and a muzzle velocity of ~450fps.
This means that my ball bearing has ~2 times the kinetic energy of
a .22 short.

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: Brad_Murray@mindlink.bc.ca (Brad Murray)
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:06:18 GMT

James Del-Vecc says
> If this holds, then it has far _more_ momentum than a .22 short, and only
> slightly less energy.  I wouldn't volunteer to be hit with either the .22
> or the .68 bearing, as either one could kill a person.
The damage is more strongly related to energy per unit of cross-sectional
area. In this case the .22 does dramatically more damage because the energy
is distributed over a small area thus causing penetration and internal
damage. The larger ball bearing is less likely to penetrate and thus less
likely to cause fatal damage.

A skull hit will still be pretty damaging, but a hit in an area that
distributes energy efficiently (like the thigh or the chest) will show a
large difference in the danger presented by each projectile.

I don't recommend standing in front of either, but the .68 ball is definitely
less dangerous.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Murray                                        Brad_Murray@mindlink.bc.ca
"Can't fix the car without a whole lotta milka.  Whole lotta shakin goin on."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky rec.sport.paintball:1961 talk.politics.guns:27068
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:02:52 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

NOTE:  I've cross-posted to talk.politics.guns ...

Ambone Gilles (ambone@imag.fr) wrote:
: Please, don't confuse paintball guns and real firearms.
: [...] Then people can easily think that
: there is a large similarity between having a PB gun and a firearm.

Anything that can fire a .68 calibre projectile at 450+ fps *IS* a
firearm.  If you put an aluminum alloy ball, marble or ball bearing in
a paintball gun, cranked your gun up as high as it would go, and fired
at a sheet of plywood, you would quickly demonstrate this to yourself.
(Warning: don't try this at home, kids!)

Hell, the Swiss effectively used a pump air rifle in war.
Imagine what they could have done with liquid CO2.

: I hate firearm but I enjoy paintball, because the spirit of the sport
: is very accentuate on fun and not on any symbolic representation of
: war, defense, or whatever like that.

'Real' firearms are mostly used for target shooting,  which is a lot of
fun.  You are comparing what you do with your paintball gun to what you
see firearms being used for on TV.

: Anti-paintballers are certainly people who misunderstood this spirit,
: and this is why it's so important for all paintball players to exclude
: confusing terminology.

No,  anti-paintballers are, for the most part,  just control freaks.
They just don't want you to have firearm or to play paintball,
no amount of talk about 'spirit of the game' will dissuade them.

You see,  their logic goes like this:

    Paintball is dangerous.  Paintball guns could be used to hurt
    someone.  You have no *need* to play paintball.  Hence is no reason
    for you to play paintball, hence laws should be passed outlawing
    paintball and paintball guns.

It is interesting to note that note that most gun-control and
anti-paintball advocates desire laws with stricter penalties
for simple possession of a 'firearm' than the penalties associated
with actual physical assault.  It says a lot about their motives.

: For example, in France 'guns' is not use, we
: prefers the term of 'lanceur' (launcher), new terms appear : 'splatche'
: is equivalent to 'hit'. Even like that, Paintball sport isn't easy
: to explain.
:
: So please, be carefull about your vocabulary.

A lanceur by any other name is still a firearm.

Make sure you know who you friends are and that you are on the
right side of the gun control fence or you won't be playing paintball
much longer.

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com
From: D.G.Legros@bradford.ac.uk (DG LEGROS)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: HEAT STALKER
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:24:45 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92356597@ccw313
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Does anyone know what this wonderous device is called and can we get hold
of it at Toys'r'Us in the UK

Please EMail

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
        _____   | Dommy the Mouse (INTERNET D.G.Legros@bradford.ac.uk)
   ____/____^>. |                 (JANET    D.G.Legros@uk.ac.bradford)
                | Rodents rule ok!  :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:08:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.201902.1@vax2.winona.msus.edu> tyger@vax2.winona.msus.edu writes:
>Has anyone heard any information about the possibility of paintball
>in the olympic games?

I have not heard anything like this.

I would think that 'outdoors' paintball would be hard to watch as a spectator,
and perhaps a little too easy to cheat.

Something like speedball might be workable, but I personally rate speedball
lower than woodsy paintball.


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: elauren@hubcap.clemson.edu (Addison Laurent)
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:34:02 GMT

laser@vpnet.chi.il.us (Paul Lamb) writes:

>In article <1993Jan24.210135.2005@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>>john@kennel.FIDONET.ORG (John Hamilton) writes:
>>
>>>Friday January 22 1993 15:02, Robert Osborne wrote to All:
>>
>>>before you could pick yours up. By the way, a ball bearing at 450 fps will
>>>not kill unless it strikes the skull just so, and even then, its unlikely.
>>>A .22 short has far more inertial mass when it strikes than this theoretical
>>>ball bearing.
>>
>>	.22 short bullet, 29 grains at 1100 fps = 78 ft-lbs of energy.
>>and 32 units* of momentum.
>>.36" lead ball = 70 grains, so a .68" lead ball = 472 grains.
>>At 450 fps this = 212 ft-lbs of energy, and 212 units* of momentum.

>I don't know about the physics course here, sounds like something for 
>alt.boring.egghead.  What I do knoe is that paintball is a very safe sport
>compared to many.  Ask the experts, the people that insure paintball fields-

The discussion was how unsafe it could get if some idiot put a SOLID
lead ball, and crank the gun up. Pay attention before you start running
your mouth and calling people stupid and inexperienced.

>According to them less people per 1000 players are injured playing paintball
>than volleyball.  Sounds to me like the players know about safe gun practices.

B***S***! They just aren't using REAL bullets... The amount of gun
safety that I have seen (with _*extremely*_ limited experience could fit
in the bellybutton of a flea.

>Further, I gather from you position on this issue that you've never played
>paintball.  That makes it impossible for you to comment on any aspect of the game.  Try playing before trying to pass yourself off as an expert!  P.S. Be

As you noticed, he was commenting on the *physics* of the game. None of
the professors who teach me physics have been into orbit to try any of
this out - but they know how it works, to explain it to me.. Read before
you mouth off. Saves a LOT of embarressment.

>careful playing volleyball-You never know when some maniac with a gun will

Be careful reading USENET. Never know when some fool is going to not
read the thread and start shooting his mouth off.

>show and start shooting.  The world is a dangerous place sometimes.  Although
>experts like you make me feel so much safer.  I bet you're the kind of person
>that would try to bring a real gun onto a paintball field.

Read the fripping post.... He didn't say ANYTHING remotely resembling
that....

Addison

-- 
ELAUREN@HUBCAP.CLEMSON.EDU
I hate .sigs. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
From: bjs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu (Brian J. Smith)
Subject: Re: Phantom!!
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department, CMT Group
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 11:58:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.233624.22756@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz) writes:
>In article <1993Jan22.221806.23234@news.cs.brandeis.edu> st923265@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>have you actually played with a Sterling.  I'm thinking about either a 
>>Sterling or a Grey Ghost and I really need more input from people who
>
>well, since i don't like the idea of taking up semis with a pump, i pplay with
>modified vm68s or f1s, and let the newbies handle the sterling :-) darn solid
>gun, works great, seemsas indestructible as the vm68.
>

Well I am starting to play in a tournments down here in Florida, and a buddy
of mine on our 5 man team still uses a Pihrana Short Barrel, for these
tournments.  He has a PMI-3, but his is soo good with that pump that we let
him use that gun.  He gets more kills than anybody else on the time.  And the
thing that really pissed us off is we shoot off a case or more of paint and
he gets by with 1/4 case at max.

Bjs



-- 

Brian J. Smith           Systems Manager CMT Group   Email: bjs@phys.ufl.edu
Department of Physics	    260 Williamson Hall      Fax:     (904) 392-0524 
University of Florida 	   Gainesville, FL 32611     Voice:   (904) 392-5339
From: memo1993@terapin.com (Guillermo Talamantes)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Phantom again...
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:42:59 PST
Organization: BBS


Well, I finally bought the Phantom! I decided to get the 11" version since half
of the people who responded recomended the 14" and the other half recomended
the 8". Thanks to all who responded.
     However I do have one other question regarding this classic,  What mod's
are available and which ones are worth it? I heard about people tricking out
their Phantoms, but I can't think of much other than an Ultra-Dot and Smart
Parts Barrel. Is there anything else? Thanks in advance...



        KEEP
              THOSE
                     BALLS
                            FLYING!!!



LONG LIVE THE PRO/AM!!!!!
From: sl3nf@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: ANTI PAINTBALLERS???y
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:46:45 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

> # By the way, a ball bearing at 450 fps will
> # not kill unless it strikes the skull just so, and even then, its unlikely.
> 
> I'd be interested to know you source,  or did you just make this up?
> 
> Did you know that the terminal velocity of most bullets is ~300fps.
> Did you know that many people are killed each year by bullets falling
> to the earth.  A bullet traveling the same speed as a paintball in a
> sanctioned tournament would be deadly.
> 
> # A .22 short has far more inertial mass when it strikes than this theoretical
> # ball bearing.
> 
> I'm not sure what meaning of inertial mass you are using ...
> 
> A .22 short has a 50 grain bullet and muzzle velocity of ~900fps.
> My .68 ball bearing would be >400 grains and a muzzle velocity of ~450fps.
> This means that my ball bearing has ~2 times the kinetic energy of
> a .22 short.
> 

	Ok, I'm the one who stirred up this can of worms in the first place,
and personally, I'm sick of hearing about it, so I'm going to try to settle
this once and for all.
	***Physics major alert***

	I don't care how fast something hits you, it doesn't really matter as
far as safety goes.  You are literally arguing as though there's no difference
between getting hit by a pound of brick at 290 fps and a pound of feathers at
290 fps.  THERE IS AN OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE, AND NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO NOTICE
IT!!!
	A .22 bullet is made out of lead.  Maleable, yes.  Soft?  No.  When a
.22 slug impacts, say... brick, it is flattened by about a quarter of an inch (I
have one here, now.)  That means that all of the infamous 'energy' in the slug
is trasfered in the time it takes for it to travel that quarter of an inch... if
you do all the math involved, it turns out that a .22 slug has about the same
kinetic energy as a paintball, but transfers all of it in something like a two
thousanth the time to an area a tenth as large.  Overall, a _rigid_ object
struck by a paintball and a .22 bullet suffers OVE TWENTY THOUSAND TIMES MORE
from the .22 bullet per unit of area.
	I could do the calculation for the impact against skin but I think I'll
spae myself the gruesome details.  However, I think that you can get the pictue
if you imagine what that's going to do to a good set of goggles.

	If anyone cares to refute this, please cross-post it to
alt.physics.new_theories.  I'm sure they'd be more interested than I would. 
Ii'm just trying to put this whole thing to rest. 

	Ron Barry...   sl3nf@cc.usu.edu