HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: English Only Movement
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:42:55 GMT
Organization: Dept of Mathematics, Texas A&M University

In article <sacleINNskp@agate.berkeley.edu>, stewartk@garnet.berkeley.edu (Stewart J. Kong) writes:

|> I'm interested in what Asians think of the English Only Movement.  My
|> feeling is that the real reason for this movement is economic.  The founding
|> fathers of America intentionally chose NOT to have a national language so    
|> that 200 years later, this movement becomes a dispute.  What I'm saying is 
|> that I think it's motivated by the legislature , not for nationalistic reasons,
|> but to eliminate non-English or limited English speaking people from entering
|> the work force.  In this sense, because this mostly affects immigrants of 
|> color, it is a racist policy.  Do you disagree or what?

I don't believe in "Movements."  There isn't a "PC Movement" and there
certainly isn't an "English Only Movement."  There may be "English only"
legislation proposed from time to time.  To determine whether the
legislation is racist, I would have to observe the legislative debate
to determine intent.

For example, it is reasonable and not necessarily racist to argue that
there should be some limits to public funding of bilingual education.
It is reasonable and not necessarily racist for the government not
to interfere if a newspaper includes English proficiency as a standard 
for employment.
-- 
Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843
achin@math.tamu.edu   Probably not TAMU's exact opinions.   (409) 845-1924
                * Fighting racism is not a special interest *
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians ? How true ?
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:06:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973

>shay@osiris (George Shay) writes:
>>Be honest, I will not let my sister date an Indian unless I know this guy
>>very well, sure he has nice personality and good education. Before that I
>>will not let her do it. 
   
 "Let" her?  How do you not "let" her?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
Subject: Re: East Asian Ethics (was Re: Chinatown unsafe?)
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:53:35 GMT

In article <MDAY.92Apr10105757@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu> mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:
>   hyx1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Harry Y Xu) writes:
>
>   For this reason, East Asians are more considerate than American and
>   Europeans.  That's base on my observation of domitory living and other
>   East-West inter-cultural encounters.
>
>Generalizing from your personal experience seems unwise.

Of course it is unwise.  Unfortunately, most of us don't have everyone
else's personal experiences, but only their own.  At least he did say it
was *based on his personal experience.*

>But even if
>we ignore that, remember that in other contexts this apparent virtue
>is a vice.  For example, some people say "East Asians are unassertive
>and unquestioning in class."  Same cultural trait, different
>interpretation.  A friend of mine who spent a year in Japan described
>how at lunch, the most senior person would order first, and everyone
>else would order the same thing.  Is that being considerate or just
>mindless conformism and deference to authority? 

A middle ground might be nice here, but in practice this tends to be,
"if you are <trait> to the same degree I am, you're okay, otherwise you
have too much or too little of this trait."

On the other hand, without a middle ground, you have situations like the
following.  Let's say you're driving a car that is holding three other
people, and you make a wrong turn and they know it.  There are two extreme
cases:
(1) Your passengers may think, "Oh, it's not considerate to embarrass the
driver by telling him that he's made a wrong turn," so they never tell you.
(Don't think it never happens!)
(2) Each passenger has a different way he thinks you should go, so you
spend an hour arguing why your way is "right," and never go anywhere.
From: hiebeler@think.com (Dave Hiebeler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Reclaiming our heritage (was: Oriental bias against Indians...)
Date: 11 Apr 92 14:18:11
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation
Distribution: usa
	<MDAY.92Apr9225325@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu>
	<s3d50INN8pq@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: passion.think.com
In-reply-to: chrchan@ocf.berkeley.edu's message of 10 Apr 92 06:38:24 GMT


In article <s3d50INN8pq@agate.berkeley.edu> chrchan@ocf.berkeley.edu (Christopher S. Chan) writes:

>    I guess I wasn't advocating racial purity as much as I was trying
>    to encourage people to recognize and reclaim their heritages, even
>    whites, who I think should try to embrace their European
>    backgrounds.  I think it would add a great deal to this country.

  Just as with Nth-generation Asian Americans, I think it is kind of
pointless to encourage Nth-generation European Americans to reclaim
"their" heritage.  My name is German; I believe my ancestors came from
Austria/Hungary, quite a long time ago.  I know practically nothing
about those cultures.  For me to suddenly "reclaim" those cultures
seems kind of meaningless -- I might as well "reclaim" French culture
or Irish culture, or any other one that I pick at random.  I wasn't
born knowing German and wasn't raised with anything I would identify
as "European culture" at home (in fact I even had to ask a German guy
what my last name means, since no one in my family knows).

  In fact, over the past few years, I have decided that I will
"reclaim" Chinese culture.  It's my decision, right?  So I am learning
Chinese language and culture, and greatly enjoying it so far.

>    Still, I believe that when people of different cultures marry,
>    there'll certainly be conflicts.  Someone's culture has got to
>    give, and I think this is a bad thing.

  I don't agree that someone's culture has to give.  People of two
different cultures can actually get along well, even if neither one
"sacrifices" their own culture.  I knew one American guy / Chinese
American woman couple, where the woman was very "Chinese" (culturally
speaking, in my opinion), and to my surprise, the guy didn't really
seem interested in learning a lot about Chinese culture.  But they
seem to get along really well and are very happy.  I think it's
impossible to predict; when two people get married, tiny differences
can cause big problems, and huge differences (e.g. very different
cultural backgrounds) can cause no trouble at all!

--
Dave Hiebeler                  | Internet: hiebeler@think.com
Thinking Machines Corporation  | UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!think!hiebeler
245 First Street               | Bitnet: hiebeler%think.com@mitvma.bitnet
Cambridge, MA 02142  USA       | Phone:  (617) 234-4070 (work)
From: janew@woobaby.EBay.Sun.COM (Jane Woo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Why is stereotyping bad? (Re: 'Asian N
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:27:07 GMT
Reply-To: janew@woobaby.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: woobaby.ebay.sun.com

>>Without commenting on the validity (or lack thereof) of Mr. Pak's
>>exposition, it should be noted that "Asian" does not refer to a race.
>>It connotes a geographical reference.  Both Russians and Indians are
>>in Asia, but neither is a member of the Mongoloid race.

Sounds good to me... "Asian" refers to a geographical reference to the
continent of Asia.

>>Mr. Pak's statement of "... black people or Asian people ..." should
>>be converted to "... black people or Oriental people ...".  "Oriental"
>>is sufficiently descriptive to connote the Mongoloid race.

I disagree with this statement.  "Oriental" does NOT connote the
Mongoloid race.  "Oriental" was derived by the English during British
colonization era- orient meaing "EAST" with the reference of England
being the center of earth. (Occidental for "WEST".)  At that time,
the Indians were considered "orientals" as well.  This is all based
on a class I had a quite a few years ago.  Did the definitions change
since??  Let me know....

>>In any event, Mr. Pak should be applauded for being able to distinguish
>>between "race" and "ethnicity", which is a subset of the former.  Many
>>people who identify with Chinese culture seem unable to do so.  Examples
>>can be found in soc.culture.china.  (I suspect that Mr. Pak is not
>>Chinese.)

Sigh... yet another Dwight-ism... the email he was replying to had no
reference of any particular "ethnicity" just basic "race".  Yet, he had
to "stab" the Chinese again.  Gads, even my rottweiler gives up the rag
once in awhile!!

-jane
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.japan
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Subject: Re: Asian Cultures inability to develop democracy
Keywords: interpretation, twits
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:02:38 GMT

luke@koala.ee.byu.edu (David Luke) writes:
>Or more specifically, the thing I can't understand is the _motivation_
>for underreporting.  Ask the average Japanese person why they do it,
>and they'll say, "because we don't want to look lazy.  If we say it took
>10 hours to do 10 hours of work, our bosses would think we were inefficient,
>so we only report 9 hours of work."  But the bosses all know what is going
>on!  Last year the kacho was working in the ka with everybody else, 
>underreporting his own hours.  He knows everyone is doing it, and they
>all know that he knows it.  So why do they do it, and why do they say
>they do it so as not to look inefficient?

	The boss has to show his superiors that he can get a lot of
	work from his people for little money (he has a budget) so one
	curries favor from him by underreporting hours.  Not currying favor
	leads to poorer reviews, and smaller wage increases, and so
	is counter-productive for the worker.  I have read of some anger
	directed at the first engineers in a group to undrereport hours
	because it pressures the others to do the same - "Watanabe can
	get his work done in only 50 hours - why do you need 60?"

	I beleive that one columnist noted that the coffee shops and
	pachinko parlors have lots of white collar workers in them during
	the day implying that they take breaks and go back to work.

	- Michael

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists
in adapting the world to himself.  Therefore, all progress depends upon the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
From: rtang@sunee.waterloo.edu (He who must not be Named.)
Subject: Re: re China never as prosperous as Europe?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 06:47:48 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.194330.3094@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>Wrong again.
>
>Infanticide is still occurring today and is condoned by the Chinese.
 OK, I WANT NAMES?!?!  Show ME ONE One Chinse person
who will state in writting, that he or she condones infanticide.

You really are in a dream world aren't you!?

For your in formation, in the Criminal code of Canada, 'infanticide'
is listed under a separate charge from 'murder' and carries a lesser
sentence.  Does THIS MEAN Canadians condone infanticide??
To contrast, I think infantide is a capital offense in China, a rather
cruel punishment, but hardly what I would consider 'condoning' it.

As a scientific point, I believe the Canadian ruling on infanticide
was due to the realization of 'unusually' number of Infanticide, or
that it was even happening at all.  It was contended that some
mothers sufferred from 'post-natal depression syndrome', hence the
change in the criminal code from man-slaughter to infanticide.

DJ MODE ON:
speaking of idiotic laws,  I would contend that American and Swiss
culture is barbaric.  America makes it a constitutional right to
bare arms and own a weapon, while swiss law its manditory to own
a gun!  If thats isnt barbaric I dont know what is?!  
American and Swiss culture are the most, hell add Canadian culture
is the most BARBARIC VILEST CESSPOOL ON EARTH!! 
NOT TO MENTION, Americans CONDONE GANG VIOLENCE!! HELL ITS HAPPENING
EVERYDAY, HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS ARE KILLED OR A VICTIM OF THIS
EVERY YEAR!!!  Even the movies glorify this!! 
DJ you must identify with American/Suiss/Canadian culture!
DJ MODE OFF:

Thats was meant to parady, DJ and his veiws for those who 
dont know.  But those laws I mentioned are true.   I may or
maynot hold any of the above view in hold or in part.
As a point of interest, if you ever seen any anti-american
propaganda put out by the former USSR, then you can see how
even accurate yet biased information can be used to portray ANY
culture/country/people/entity in an EXTREMELY negative light.
ie) this propaganda piece featured a story about the huge homeless 
population in many large american cities.  It made america look
like everyone was in that state.  But you all know there is some
truth to that, just go downtown in any major U.S. city and 
you'll know there's a problem.


Can we really judge a culture by those examples?      
If your openess to ideas are as great as DJ's, I guess THATS ALL
the proof you need!


 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Will America fall?   teeter, teeter 
Followup-To: soc.culture.asian.american
Summary: What is failure in the Chinese sense?
Keywords: predestination
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 00:52:12 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.230533.10990@bnlux1.bnl.gov> kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov
(kenton yee) writes:
>In article <1992Apr2.202555.28543@rice.edu> kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
writes:
> 
>  Depends what you mean by "country."  Political entities come and
> go, but certain cultural/geographical groups such as the europeans
> and the japanese have "prospered" for a long time, give or take 
> a plague and upheaval or two.   The middle east is an example of
>  an area which has regressed.   I don't know enough about chinese
>  history to know if china was ever as prosperous as europe or not,
>  in the sense of well-fed peasants....
>  In any case, I suspect China 
>  is also an example of a country which has regressed.  

You can lay your suspensions to rest.

At no point in Chinese history has China ever been as prosperous
and well off as the USA or Western Europe.  Even if you reach back
3000 years like the way many China-philes like to do, you will find
that China was far worse than modern Western society.  There was
no penicillin, no antibiotics, no Bill of Rights, no human decency
(but that's always been true, hasn't it?), etc. in China.

Leninism is an inferior economic (& political) concept as far as
generating wealth is concerned.  But interestingly, China before
Leninism was far worse than China after Leninism.  Today, the Chinese
are better educated and live longer than at any time in their entire
history before the exposure to Western society (and Leninism).

That, I suppose, is the strange part.  Leninism comes from an
inferior realm of Western society, yet compared to what the Chinese
had before Leninism, Leninism is quite good.  In other words,
the best that the Chinese could muster without Western (or Japanese)
influence was worse than the worst in Western (or Japanese) society.

I wonder if the barbaric inferiority of Chinese culture has anything
to do with this dismal record of Chinese accomplishments (or
lack thereof).

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Seikatsu no imi ha nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
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From: sedayao@sousa.intel.com (Jeff Sedayao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asians in Movies (was Re: info on Tia Carrare?)
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:10:42 GMT
Reply-To: sedayao@chopin.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <11783@tamsun.tamu.edu>, achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin) writes:

[stuff deleted]

> It looks like it's time to put out the film/book survey again.  I'm adding
> "The King and I" and "Sixteen Candles" (Long Duck Dong has earned tenure
> in this newsgroup).  Any others?

How about South Pacific?  It even has racism as a theme.

> -- 
> Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843
> achin@math.tamu.edu   Probably not TAMU's exact opinions.   (409) 845-1924
>                 * Fighting racism is not a special interest *

-- 
Jeff Sedayao
Intel Corporation
sedayao@chopin.intel.com
..!uunet!intelhf!chopin!sedayao
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians ? How true ?
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:03:04 GMT

[lots of good ideas deleted]

In article <upsi1.702787529@mcl> upsi1@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (Mathew Waywe Yee) writes:
>My personal thought is thus:  if she's attractive, go for it!  The worst
>she can do is insult you in which case she's not worth getting involved
>with.  (I don't believe that "NO" is the worst since insults hurt more)

Well...it *could* be worse.  She could tell a friend, "this person's been
bothering me," and send someone to rough him up a bit, for example.
<can't decide whether to put a smiley here or not; though this is a low
probability event for most people, it would be sad if it did happen to him>

>"This life is a test - it is only a test.  If this had been an actual life,
> you would have been told where to go and what to do!"

Don't you tell me where to go! :-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: sbog6936@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Bin Ong)
Subject: Re: Asian vs Western education (was: Re: asian-american achievement)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:18:13 GMT

hyx1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Harry Y Xu) writes:

>>> {previous para deleted}

>	I remember reading _Psychology_ by Wade & Tavris and see an 
>interesting passage.  According to which, phychologist administered a test
>to a group of Americans and a group of Asias (I think it was Chinese) when
>they were students and again 30 years later.  While they were in school,
>the Asians did significantly better.  But 30 years later, the Americans
>did significantly better.  The conclusion was that Asian/(Chinese?) 
>education emphasize more on memorization while the American education 
>emphasize more on thinking and analytic skills comparing to the other.

>====================================>.sig <====================================
>  Harry Xu  (KB2LHA)	   Internet:  hyx1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu

Without more details, it is difficult to determine if the results
can be generalized or restricted to the sample: eg are the Asians from the
US, or country of origin? What is the criteria to measure success? If 
the sample was American Asians, what about discriminationon the job?
That discrmination had been documented, irregardless of what other
sociologists may say .  There are advantages, and disadvantages of
learning methods (rote vs analytical).... which is another subject for
education majors altogether.

Bin Ong
Univ of Illinois
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day)
Subject: Re: Engineers (was Re: Asian Immigrants on SAT English)
Organization: /u/mday/.organization
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 20:15:33 GMT

   tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov writes:
   -> mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:

   ->   Well, I don't think it's up to you to define "real" engineers.  
   ->
   ->This is a peculiar criticism coming from someone who felt free to
   ->generalize about "good" engineers and their verbal skills.  What
   ->credentials do you think I need to have before I say something about
   ->the difference between engineering school and engineering practice?

   Why did not cut out the rest of my response?  I said whether an
   engineer is "good" or not is for his employer to decide.

OK, so now I know what you mean by "good".  You mean "capable of
getting and holding a job."

I'd call that "adequate", not "good"; but at least now I know why you
claim that one can have poor communication skills and still be a
"good" engineer.

--Mark Day

mday@lcs.mit.edu
From: upsi1@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu (Mathew Waywe Yee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians ? How true ?
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:45:29 GMT
Distribution: usa

In <69988@ut-emx.uucp> vishram@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Vishram P.Dalvi) writes:
>[stuff deleted]

>	This friend just asked me to FORGET THE GIRL. He told me that
>no Oriental girl will go for an Indian. They might go for Caucasians
>(no racial thoughts on MY part here) probably, but most of them are
>told by their parents (or atleast given the idea) that Indians are poor,
>ignorant, good-for-nothin peasants. Also the families are very conservative
>(aren't most of us Asians !) and so the parents approve of their daughters 
>dating only other Orientals (This didn't surprise me much because a lot
>of Indian families here have the same mentality) and a lot of girls,
>respecting their parents, will abide by their wishes !

Whoa!!!  This is a new one on me.  My first question is this:  where
were your Asian friends brought up?  If they were brought up in Asia
or were brought up with parents from Asia (ie. second generation), then
I have no answer for you.  Personally, I don't know of any of my Asian
American friends (I just can't use the term AA since it reminds me of
Anti-Aircraft) that have been given this line.

My personal thought is thus:  if she's attractive, go for it!  The worst
she can do is insult you in which case she's not worth getting involved
with.  (I don't believe that "NO" is the worst since insults hurt more)
Yeah, my parents wanted me and my sister to go out with and marry Chinese
but, my sister is engaged to a Caucasian male.  So what!  If people can
get the idea out of there blood stream, and minds, that color/race makes
a difference, then the world would be a better place.


--
Mathew Yee
upsi1@mcl.ucsb.edu              or                    psi1@engrhub.ucsb.edu
"This life is a test - it is only a test.  If this had been an actual life,
 you would have been told where to go and what to do!"