HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:24:22 GMT

In article <#-7mta.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>In article <l8ohfjINN595@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>>Utter bullshit, but if you feel like continuing with the arm chair
>>psychoanalysis, I think you might want to look at your motivations 
>>here.  
>
>Mysogyny is a good candidate.  The use of "feminine" is even worse than
>"effeminate", I think. 

Now that's an interesting statement, one that I kept thinking while
reading this latest Post From Hell.  Is it indeed worse?  I thought so
because while "effeminate" suggests something affected, exaggerated,
or not quite real, "feminine" claims that these traits referred to are
somehow "real."  Either one of them, however, suggests to me that
there are a set of traits which are truly, quintessentially _female_
in nature, or otherwise pertaining to women, which seems a pernicious
idea in itself.

>>Fuck off.
>
>Getting fucked can be a lot of fun, but do you think it would be masculine
>enough for him?  

As long as he can be on top.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Bisexual just means you pay for it."
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Rock Hudson
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Republican Nat'l Convention Speakers
Date: 13 Aug 92 03:27:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug13.032715.28893
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <jv-y17b@rpi.edu> buckmr@aix.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>>Does that mean that California will have a budget before the convention,
>>or will Willie Brown (soc.motss relevance) hold out to see if Pete will
>>stay in town?
>Oooh! Are you OUTING Speaker Brown? I didn't realise he was gay.

Well, he always set my gaydar off.  Am I calibrated correctly?

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: St. Cole Porter (was Re: Homoerotic bible quotes?)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:18:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug9.153146.17301@spdcc.com> rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

>	The other neat thing I've seen happen from using emacs is when someone
>has put in shortcut commands all other the place, then goes to help
>someone on their workspace, forgets they are in a different environment,
>and starts using their shortcuts with someone else's mappings!  (Oops!)
>I've seen some HORRIBLY nasty things occur, wiping out some long
>editing sessions.
>
>	Whereas we happy vi users, can be virtually 100% certain
>that hjkl will still get us back to where we started (literally,
>try it!  :-)

Whereas those of us who use Emacs as a text editor (perish the thought
-- don't tell the FSF folks, either), rather than a combination
washing-machine-and-apple-corer, end up pretty happy no matter whose
environment we're in.  :-)

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Bisexual just means you pay for it."
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Rock Hudson
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Introduction
Date: 16 Aug 1992 02:00:12 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug16.040630.8682@wam.umd.edu> 
lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Lovegod) writes:
> Hi everybody!  It's been a delightful summer!

How nice for you.

[...]
> I'm proposing that everyone here introduce themselves as though noone else  
> knows them.  I know it may end up being very repetitive and monotonous, but 
> new motss don't know who any of us are.  

Shouldn't they just be forced to catch up?

> I still don't know too much about anyone  
> here.  Most of the preliminary posts that new people read provide little or 
> no insight of the authors.  

Honey, if you don't know what I'm about after reading two or three
of my posts, no amount of biographical information will help.

> I really would like to get to know everyone here at  
> soc.motss ... 

How nice.

Here's my entry ...

[...]
> "Mr. Harris, plutocrat,
>  Wants to give my cheek a pat.
>  If the Harris pat means a Paris hat, okay!"
>	 		"Always True To You In My Fashion"
>	 		 as sung by Blossom Dearie

                         and by everyone else who sings the song

As long as we're on this Cole Porter kick, I'll close with 
his French lyrics to "Find Me a Primitive Man" (I don't mean
the kind that belongs to a club / But the kind that has a club
that belongs to him):

   Trouve moi un homme primitif.
   Trouve moi un garcon naif.
   Quelqu'un tout plein de vigeur,
   Ces petits maquereaux qu'on appelle gigolos ne
   Pourraient jamais me donner le vrai bonheur.
   J'ai besoin d'un bel animal
   Pour regeler mon chauffage centrale.
   Et l'homme qui me veut pour capitane
   Devrait reveiller mon sang tzigane.
   Trouve moi un homme primitif, vif.
   Trouve moi un homme primitif.


Arne
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Date: 15 Aug 1992 11:36:20 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu
Keywords: drag, commedia dell'arte

In article <1992Aug15.150250.17218@cis.ohio-state.edu> 
amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
> ever one to disagree with my friends, i respond to article
> <4576@news.duke.edu>, in which dblakele@acpub.duke.edu (the m.dean)
> writes:
>
> >I marched as a leatherman when I should have been there in my lab coat
> >and stethoscope.  We have to show ourselves to the world as ourselves.
> >Marching in drag, leather or G-strings doesn't help us out a bit.

At first I was offended by that.  Now I'm charmed by Dean's naivete.
What are our real selves that we can show ourselves as ourselves?
I'd much rather show myself as the silent movie queen manque (a Pola
Negri-Gloria Swanson type) I sometimes am, or as the retiring, bookish
type I more often am, than as what I do for a living.  How would
I show myself to the world as a low-level university administrator?
And why would I want to?  That's less the real me than are any number
of other personae.

> and
>
> >...Drag, in my opinion, is a means to cover up perceived deficiencies in
> >one's own character by portrying a fantasy.  I want to emphasize 
> >perceived here because with a little help there is probably a good
> >person down there that has been taught to act the way he does by
> >forces he can't understand at times.

I'm still offended by the homophobia in that paragraph.

[...]
> now, about drag, dean.  i see two problems with what you say.  the

Heavens, there are more than two problems with what he had to say.
But I'd start with his definition of "drag".

> first is that you're looking to reduce some complex bit of behavior to
> a single explanatory factor - drag IS a cover-up for perceived
> deficiencies, period, every time, for everybody - which, moreover, you
> judge to be "bad".  the second is that you're projecting your own
> experiences and feelings onto everybody else [...]

> [this is where harry ugol breaks in and says, "honey, it's *all*
> drag!"]

Add my voice to Harry's.  As I've told any number of people over the
years, I experience the world through the lens of commedia dell'arte.
Life is an improvised comedy and who we *really* are at any point in 
the comedy depends on how the plot has unfolded up to that point and
the directions in which it may develop.  And, as in any good comedy,
life contains any number of subplots in which we play different roles.
Sometimes some of us really are drag queens, or butch hairy people
in totally revealing leather, or angry faggots, or any number of
other things that Dean seems to dismiss as poses. 

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jefu@akbar.nmt.edu (Jeff Putnam)
Subject: Re: queer brains?
Organization: New Mexico Institute of Mining & Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:32:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.193427.17245@morrow.stanford.edu>  
AS.ALH@forsythe.stanford.edu (andrew harker) writes:
> In article <l8mgv7INNe0q@nunki.usc.edu>,
> silverma@nunki.usc.edu (David Silverman) writes:
> >The way I see it, there is no proof that homosexuality is  
biological. There
> >is way to prove which came first, the sexual orientation or the  
brain
> >structure, from only one examination of each body. I don't think  
we know
> >enough about the brain to say that it can't be changed by a  
persons actions.

> Not to pick nits or anything, but for the edification of our
> reading audience, could you let us know what education or training
> has helped you make this observation?  I'm always interested in
> the credentials someone has when making an "expert opinion."

Me too.  I saw someone on one of those afternoon talk shows
the other day (not Geraldo, not Donahue, not Oprah, but some
other guy whose name just wasnt essential enough to remember)
who had guests who were gay parents or who wanted to adopt,
and there was this woman there that he kept addressing as
"doctor".  She kept saying things like "the data show that
homosexuals cant be good parents", and I kept yelling at
the toob "What data?" and "Who made _you_ a doctor?"  
(Yelling at the tv is such a good way to relieve anger
at the people on it. :-) 

--
jefu <=> Jeff Putnam - New Mexico Tech <=> jefu@nmt.edu 
"Overturn the dominant paradigm"
From: harris@bodie.cs.unc.edu (Trey Harris)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Sarcasm
Date: 16 Aug 92 02:55:02 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Aug14.165718.17628@tcsi.com> chuckm@dakota.tcs.com
(Chuck Meares) writes:
>
>I did not see smileys or any such things and assumed what I assumed.  Shoot
>me for not having a proper net.humor quota, but my thoughts still stand.

This is always the way, isn't it?  Every lesbigay I know is at one
extreme or the other on sarcasm.  I, like many of my friends, view
sarcasm as a high art form.  Yet, some (less I believe than the other
group) never get sarcasm, period.

Has anyone else out there noticed this?  
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:33:03 GMT

In article <ROBERTL.92Aug17201444@luciano.Stanford.EDU>, robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:
> Neither do I, not having lived it.  Fiction and history give some
> insight, as does the oral tradition.

Let's hear it for the oral tradition! I hereby offer to educate any of
you young folks in the finer points of the oral tradition.

Robert [once again violating his rule against posting until he's
        caught up, and suspecting he's late to the party]
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Speaking for others (was Re: Introduction)
Date: 20 Aug 1992 12:14:22 -0700
Organization: Ghetto Gayboys
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug20.181848.29442@watson.ibm.com>
jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin) writes
in response to Jack Hamilton:

> ... it dismisses lovegod completely, erasing him and his
> experiences, and it ignores any kind of diversity.  i'm happy that i'm
> not John Dorrance and Elf Sternberg, and i'm quite certain they feel
> the same.

Ignoring diversity?  No, too easy a target.

I'm sure John and Elf are happy you are not they, too.  But 
perhaps you have special insights into their psyches which
we comfortably and securely out of the closet ghetto gayboys 
(and why is it that we get under your -- plural, and you know 
who you are -- skin like this?) don't share.

Arne, puzzled at the vitriol

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Subject: Re: TheVoice, Mutual Admiration Societies, what have you (was Re: redefining masculinity)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:59:01 GMT

In article <l8upvdINNmek@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>.....obscure lines from movies.  I guess it
>still does sound idiotic, but it forced me to pay very close 
>attention to movie dialogue.  In fact, I'm still constantly on 
>the lookout for inane lines, and not just run-of-the-mill
>inane, but whoppers.)  
>

"Does the word 'duh' mean anything to you?"  Buffy, in Buffy the V.S.
(Recommended--longest and funniest death scene ever filmed...)

El
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Two Obituaries
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 05:31:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

[Derived from today's San Francisco Chronicle]

LINDA J. LAUBENSTEIN 

Age 45, at her summer home in Chatham, Massachusetts.  An autopsy is
pending.  She had severe asthma, and childhood polio had left her a
paraplegic at the age of 5. 

Dr. Laubenstein was described by Larry Kramer as "incredibly important in
the history of AIDS, a genuine pioneer and a real fighter for what she
believed."   She inspired the character of Dr. Emma Brookner in Kramer's
play "The Normal Heart". 

Jeffrey Greene, a colleague, called her "the ultimate AIDS physician".  She
met patients in the emergency room in the middle of the night and even made
house calls, not an easy thing to do if your transportation is a wheelchair
and public buses in New York City. 

Dr. Laubenstein and Dr. Alvin Friedman-Klein wrote the first paper to be
published in a medical journal on the appearance of Kaposi's Sarcoma in
young gay men.  By May 1982 she had seen 62 patients with AIDS - a quarter
of all the cases in the whole country. 

She and Dr. Friedman-Klein arranged the first full-scale AIDS conference,
in 1983, and helped found the Kaposi's Sarcoma Research Fund.  In 1989, she
and Jeffrey Greene started Multitasking, a non-profit which contracted
office services to businesses, using PWA's as workers.  She was concerned
that PWA's often lost their jobs, and felt that work was essential to
physical and emotional health, as well as for financial support. 

She was critical of the government's neglect in failing to fight AIDS.  She
also argued for the closure of bathhouses.



TOMMY NUTTER

Age 49, in London, England. 

He was a tailor whose clients included the Rolling Stones and Michael
Jackson.  He pioneered flared trousers and wide lapels in the 1960's. 

His best known costumes were those worn by the Beatles on the cover of
"Abbey Road". 
-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: batie@agora.uucp (Alan Batie)
Subject: Absolve all your sins for only $50!
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:51:13 GMT

(I realize this posting pushes the limits, however I think it's
 just within them due to its political, as opposed to commercial,
 nature. --Alan)

The Special Righteousness Committee needs your help!  The want to
help the Oregon Citizen's Alliance put *all* of Leviticus into the
State Constitution, not just a limiting few items.  One of the steps
toward this goal is to put such an argument into the Voter's Pamphlet
for the General Election in November, but to do so, they need to raise
$300 by the end of the week (the deadline for *accepted* arguments is
August 25, but it needs to be submitted earlier so they have time to
respond and/or modify and resubmit if it is rejected for some reason).

So, for a limited time only, you can be absolved of sins such as:

  o Eating oysters
  o Wearing clothing of mixed fiber
  o Shaving a beard
  o Cursing one's parents
  o Adultery

For only $50, you can receive Total Absolution!
For only $35, you will only get the stench and singe of Hellfire!
For only $25, you will spend only a mere year in the Lake of Fire!
For only $10, you will spend only a mere four additional years in
		the Lake of Fire!

Upon receipt of your penance, you will receive an 11x17 Certificate of
Indulgence in your choice of Brimstone Yellow, Hellfire Red or Hot Pink.

To order your absolution, send check or money order to:

Special Righteousnous Committee
Attn: M. Dennis Moore
P.O. Box 1851
Portland, OR  97207

For more information, call 503-287-9684.

Also, join the Family Alliance of God and be a card carrying F.A.G.!
-- 
Alan Batie                               \
batie@agora.rain.com                      \       Vote NO on Discrimination
+1 503 452-0960                          / \      Vote NO on 9!
45 28 59 N / 122 43 20 W / 440' MSL     /   \
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sexual attraction
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:07:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug13.230747.9467
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug13.222414.3220@osf.org> coren@osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
>One of Arnold Zwicky's fascinating digressions -- in this case on the
>subject of someone being "his type" -- got me thinking about "types" and
>sexual attraction generally. Some ideas along these lines had been
>kicking around at the back of my brain for the last couple of weeks
>anyway, I can't imagine why.

<Choke>  mpppttthhhhhhh.

Sorry, let me put down my Diet Pepsi.
I hate it when it gets in your nose...

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: carlton@husc10.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: AIDS speech Wed @9PM EST Republican Convention
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:59:45 GMT
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: mdrayton@sr.hp.com's message of 20 Aug 92 00:02:40 GMT

In article <Bt99GH.L9u@scd.hp.com>, mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:

> Both Bush and Quayle would (paraphrasing) "...hug that child and
> love that child..." but they'd still want her to be in jeopardy of
> going to jail for her illegal abortion, and to be in danger of
> losing his/her job, dwelling, (you know the long, long list) for
> being lesbian or gay.

Indeed.  And tonight we got to see people say over and over again
about how wonderful it was that we got to see the human side of Bush,
as if humanity had much to do with the way he were running the
country...

Speaking of convention stuff, was everybody as thrilled as I was to
see Clinton gleefully point out that he had never said that he
supported the right of same-sex couples to marry or adopt?

david carlton,
so happy he could puke.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: This wonderful connection (was a thread in memory of Rob)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:40:56 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) writes:
 >    After reading all the eulogies to Rob, I can only say I wish I'd
 >    been as fortunate as those who knew him personally.  I read his
 >    posts, even sent him mail a time or two, but that's all.

Sometimes that's all it takes to make the connection.  

I'm not trying to "correct" what Gerry is saying here; I'm taking
his remark as a point of departure for something that's been on
my mind.


The other night I mentioned to my father that one of my network
friends had died.  Dad's immediate question was whether he was
someone I'd met, or "just" someone I'd sent mail to.  The fact that
I'd managed to meet Rob validated the friendship in my father's
eyes.

Now, I happen to like getting together with the people whose
articles and mail pique my interest, but there are some (too many,
of course) people I've never had a chance of meeting face to face
whose loss would cause me more grief than some of the people I
_have_ met.  

And that's not to diminish a single one of the meetings, either. 
We all mean different things to each other and ranking the nature
of our various connections would be a very tricky business.  
I can't even do a meaningful partial ordering on the basis of how
much time I've spent actually conversing with some of the people
I've met, and there's no correlation that I can tell between the
amount of correspondence I have with someone and the way the
conversation flows in person.

There are even a couple of people I've never reached in email, and
probably never followed up to on motss, who are nonetheless very
much part of my sense of who's here, and whose absence I would
feel in some "disproportionate" degree.

Maybe this sort of thing doesn't happen to everyone.  (This is a
question, masquerading as a statement.  I invite comments.)

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 09:58:54 GMT


In article <ROBERTL.92Aug17193813@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

>- Bob (enjoying the thought that as a defecting Republican I will be
>doing double damage to Georgie this November)

Honey, that's not a defect, that's a Good Idea.  I hope
millions of Republicans will join you.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What *IS* "Heaven", anyway?
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:46:16 GMT

balistik@big-brother.nevada.edu (Shawn Hicks) writes:

>Nope, sorry... Heaven is a very large Disco in London.  It has
>12 stations (places to order alcohol) in three separate bars. It has
>a sandwich shop, a gift shop, and the coat check from hell.  Did I
>mention that it's underground?  Quite fun, really.  When I was there
>I saw leather, latex, spandex, thongs, preppy, etc.... The laser show
>is incredible, and the male dancers are very edible. Good music, too.

Heaven was my first-ever club experience:  check my coat, get a deli sandwich,
wander through the place in amazement and watch the people arriving.  (I went
with a mottser who was over from the States.)  Unfortunately I was tired and
convinced my friend to leave just before midnight, in time to catch the last
tube; so we missed male dancers or any really interesting dress fashions.

I went to my second club tonight (Rockworld, in Manchester), with a couple of
friends.  (It was amusing to see their temporary embarrassment, quickly
covered over, about having me come along with them in my Pop Against
Homophobia t-shirt:  it has a really lovely photo of two men kissing. ``We're
not going to get you to change that, no....'' words dying away.  It's further
amusing since I'm pretty certain neither is entirely straight.)

We sat in the cellar disco for a while, which was filled with androgynous
people dancing in a style that was kind of new to me:  mainly it involved
flexing the knees and repeatedly jerking the head backwards and forwards.  It
seemed a dance style suited to having particularly long hair.  A number of
lonely-looking boys sat around tables in dark corners, quite noticeably on
their own.  If only I had my cruising license....

I sat there, thinking that these people reminded me (in a nicely positive way)
of Nelson's ``queer'' stereotype.  I had a passing thought that we'd
unwittingly wandered into a gay (erm, or queer club) instead....

Midnight.  The dance number finished.  I took Dave's hand, kissed it.  He
bowed in return.  I came back to the department with the hope of finally
catching up with my motss-reading.

>Shawn, who loves England, adored Heaven, and thought Steve May was
>a hugable sweetie.

Joel, who also is fond of England, and who, having visited Heaven and spent
      time in Hell, is currently passing through Limbo....

+++++++++++++++++
Touched by her fingers, the two surviving chocolate people copulate
desperately, losing themselves in a melting frenzy of lust, spending
the last of their brief borrowed lives in a spasm of raspberry cream
and fear.  -- Neil Gaiman, THE SANDMAN
+++++++++++++++++