HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat)
Subject: Re: Scudbusters
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:58:40 GMT
Followup-To: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast


In <1992Aug14.150800.5879@cs.brown.edu> Danny Keren states:

|#Remind me, is this the same Israeli AF that executed the infamous
|#attack against the slow-moving, non-stealthy, and ill-defended USS
|#Liberty?  A ship the Israelis couldn't identify after hours of recon,
|#and didn't after three attack waves?  Or so goes the official story...
|#
|#Seems to me that either the Israelis aren't so hot at identifying and
|#killing targets after all, or that the Liberty story as told in public
|#is wrong.  Take your choice.

|Mistakes happen in war, even to the best and most expereinced air-forces.

Hmm, interestingly enough, I happened across a letter written by a 
member of the USS Liberty Veterans Association several years ago [NOT
James Ennes] to a magazine. He makes it clear that ECM pods carried 
onboard Mirage IIIs (I believe that's the designation of the Israeli 
Mirages.) were set for U.S. Navy communications frequencies, AND WERE 
NOT WIDEBAND JAMMING.

This clearly indicates Israeli knowledge of the USS Liberty as an
American vessel and not of any combatant.
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
From: slansky_doug@macn15.rtsg.mot.com
Subject: Re: Sam Donaldson, Media Celebrity, Hides in T
Organization: CSG Group
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:18:17 GMT


>This is really just too choice!  Do this post have a purpose?  The only thing
>I see in it is that the originator seems to think that Sam Donaldson should
>have died instead of his producer (his name was David Kaplin BTW).  I would
>like to see your source for this post especially the part about the tank.  The
>only thing I've seen mentioned about the vehicle that Donaldson was riding
>in was that it was "different car".  This was from an AP story in The Argus
>14 Aug 1992.
I don't want to get into an argument here, but the report I saw (I think it was
on CNN) showed an Armoured Car than Donaldson was riding around in.  It looked
exactly like a Brinks or other bank service-type armoured car.  

>It should be further noted that Mr. Kaplin was not wearing a bullet-proof
>vest like most of the rest of the press does.  I suppose that you think
>that Sam took that too.

>A man has died.  Please don't trivialize it taking a cheap shot a someone
>who had *nothing* to do with his death.
>
>
Maybe ABC should have taken steps to provide more armoured transport for the
entire crew?

Doug



Xref: sparky misc.headlines:5656 alt.politics.clinton:2057
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast 
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:34:36 GMT

eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
#
#According to Steven, the attack on the Liberty was by no means a
#mistake.  

The CIA, Navy inquiry committee, defense secretary McNamara and 
others disagree.

#(I know that has been hashed out on the net already, but go
#on.)  The Israelis had been intercepting radio transmissions from
#Cairo and rebroadcasting them to Jordan in a modified form, making the
#war news sound like Egypt was winning.  

An insane fairy tale which was never proved, and lies beyond the
realm of the possible. Are you really suggesting that the famous
phone conversation between Nasser and Hussein was altered by the
Israelis? And all this while Egyptian radio was broadcasting day and
night that "Tel-Aviv is burning"? Where's the logic? If any, Egypt
would want Jordan to join in the war, to keep the pressure of it
by opening a second front.

#This was an obvious attempt to
#lure Jordan into the war, which succeeded.  

No. Jordan declared, again and again, that it will join any war
between Egypt and Israel. What makes the above even more absurd is
that Israel warned Jordan *twice* (via UN General Bull) to stay
out of the war, but Jordan continued shelling Jerusalem and the
coastal region, leaving Israel no choice but to go to war with it.

#The Liberty was listening
#in on this, and the Americans found out what the Israelis were up to,
#and told the Israelis as much.  With the Israeli deception unmasked,
#the Israelis didn't want any other secrets snooped on, and felt forced
#to bomb the USS Liberty (after asking that it be removed, and seeing
#that it wasn't moving).

What makes this story even more illogical is the fact that the Liberty
was attacked near the end of the war, when a cease-fire has already
been signed with Jordan, and the war with Egypt was all but over
(a cease-fire was signed the same evening). There was simply no
reason for Israel to attack the ship. I have never seen any of the
"delibarate attack" advocates come up with any motive strong enough
to justify his theory. 


-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: rdavis@convex.com (Ray Davis)
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:32:39 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

>Still not much has been published in the way of pictures
>of the alleged destruction of Sarajevo.

Huh?!?  I don't know what they've been showing on NBC, ABC
and CBS, but on this side of the pond (Germany) there has
been a LOT of coverage with plenty of pictures on ITN, BBC,
ARD, ZDF and others.

Yes - there is plenty of destruction.  It is dangerous just
to cross the street.  Given that the UN backed troops during
the crisis weren't about to bomb the hotels where journalists
were staying in Baghdad, I'd say the journalists in Sarajevo
are in much more danger.
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:5753 alt.activism:15106 talk.politics.misc:40663
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Intellectuals and totalitarianism
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:47:02 GMT
 <1992Aug18.170319.26789@bmerh85.bnr.ca> <1992Aug19.033102.28965@ncar.ucar.edu> <1992Aug19.134718.25883@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.134718.25883@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca>, bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes:
> In article <1992Aug19.033102.28965@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>>f > "Frank" (Robin Collins)
>>
>>f > Some extremely intelligent people have been fundamentalists, or dogmatists.
>>f > Such is fuel for fascism.  I think some of the libertarians are right in
>>f > this area of thought (and which is why people like Chomsky call themselves
>>f > libertarian socialists, I suspect.) Any thoughts?
>>
>>  On what? That we agree that being an intellectual is no safeguard against
>>  falling for totalitarian's propaganda? Or that being an intellectual is
>>  no guarantee against being wrong, or just ignorant and stupid? Makes one
>>  wonder why so many intellectuals are of leftist persuasion, doesn't it?
>>
>>  Sometimes I think your average blue-collar Joe Steelworker has more sense
>>  and wisdom than all the lefty intellectuals infesting academia and the
>>  "elite".

> Your average Joe Bluecollar steelworker is a very sensible fellow
> and knows who's side he is on.

	Which is why (s)he voted for Ronald Reagan in overwhelming numbers.

Brett                                                      
_______________________________________________________________________________
Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster					       (Pick any two :)
Disclaimer:								   NOT!
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:5639 soc.culture.yugoslavia:7990
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
Date: 16 Aug 92 02:20:00 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Independence
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Aug13.141339.3437@desire.wright.edu>, demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes...
>	I see pics of Sarajevo every night on the news.  They've been in the
> ...
>	He meant that he cannot insert troops until a zone of safety appears. 
>Inserting troops into a hostile environment gets them killed very quickly.

There =are= pictures identified as being from Sarajevo, yes, but
with  only a couple of exceptions since April, they don't show
destroyed buildings. They show people running, soldiers with
rifles standing, old ladies in shawls and scarves. 

Anybody who knows when to "insert" troops should have been a 
general himself!
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:5772 alt.activism:15143 talk.politics.misc:40802
From: bkottmann@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil (Brett Kottmann)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Former captive tells of Serb atrocities
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:18:22 EST
Organization: Logicon Technical Services, Inc.

In article <9208131311.AA24151@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil>, paperboy@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil writes:
...
> From: The paperboy
> Subject: CAMP SURVIVOR DESCRIBES ALLEGED ATROCITIES TO LAWMAKERS.
> 
>         A 53-year-old Muslim from Bosnia-Herzegovina claims
> Serbian guards at a detention camp systematically slaughtered
> 1,350 captives during seven weeks of terror in May and June.
> 
>         Alija Lujinovic, who is from the town of Brcko in
> northeast Bosnia, told his tale of horror to a closed-door
> session of the Senate Armed Services Committee on Wednesday, then
> again to reporters at a news conference.
> 
>         Committee Chairman Sam Nunn, D-Ga., said he did not
> present Lujinovic at a public hearing because his staff had not
> had adequate time to corroborate his story. But he said "a lot of
> the things he's saying are consistent with other reports ...
> including intelligence." Full transcripts of the session are
> being turned over to the Central Intelligence Agency and other
> administration officials, Nunn said.
> 
>         Lujinovic, a traffic engineer who denied any involvement
> in politics or violence, said he was captured May 3 while hiding
> in a cellar after Serbian irregulars and troops of the former
> Yugoslav army attacked his town. He was held for two days at a
> mosque, where Serbian captors mocked the Muslim prisoners and
> desecrated the building. The prisoners were then transferred to a
> transportation center, where he said atrocities worsened.
> 
>         "They raped one woman whose children and parents were
> present, along with everyone else," Lujinovic said through an
> interpreter. "They took 15 people out and slit their throats on
> the grass. ... Three people who were watching at the window and
> were noticed by the guards, their throats were slit as well. With
> my own eyes I have seen this."
> 
>         The captives then were transported in buses to warehouses
> near Brcko, alongside the Sava River, he said, where they sat
> confined on concrete floors. Men were selected daily, taken
> outside, and their throats slit near a drain that carried off the
> blood into the river, he said.
> -------------------------

Brett--------------------------------------------------------------------------
	"Why the courts don't tell a husband who has been living off his wife
to go out and get a job is beyond my comprehension."--Joan Lunden
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,soc.rights.huma
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Scudbusters
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Rganization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:08:00 GMT

I eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
#jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
##
#
##   Which is why low-flying, precision bombing as perfected by the Israeli
##   AF would have been effective here.
#
#Remind me, is this the same Israeli AF that executed the infamous
#attack against the slow-moving, non-stealthy, and ill-defended USS
#Liberty?  A ship the Israelis couldn't identify after hours of recon,
#and didn't after three attack waves?  Or so goes the official story...
#
#Seems to me that either the Israelis aren't so hot at identifying and
#killing targets after all, or that the Liberty story as told in public
#is wrong.  Take your choice.

Mistakes happen in war, even to the best and most expereinced air-forces.
On the six-day war, Israeli jets starfed an Israeli armored column. In
the 1982 war in Lebanon, 25 Israeli soldiers were killed within a few
minutes when Israeli Phantom jets mistakengly took them to be Syrian
troops.

I don't know what to make of your post. I guess we are allowed to assume
now that the botched attempt at releasing the US hostages at Teheran
reflects on the average capability of the US army, and that the Mai-Lai
massacare reflects on the average moral of US soldiers. I think neither
of the above is true, but following your theory that a function can be
fully reconstructed from its minimas, well... take your choice.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Subject: Re: WORLD GOVERNMENT
Organization: Northeastern Law, Class of '93
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 15:56:04 GMT


In article <1992Aug15.174436.5181@news.unomaha.edu>, 
trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu (Stephen McIntyre) said:

> While it is true that inhumane laws have and still exist throughout
> the world, even being passed through by dictatorships and
> democracies alike, the majority of Western democracies have done
> away with such laws.  You [Gary Strand] mentioned, for example, the
> U.S. and its treatment of slaves (sorry I erased it).  What you
> failed to say was why the slaves were treated the way they were:
> human ignorance (this, BTW, is no excuse for the nation's behavior.)
> You also neglected the fact that 1) the U.S.  did away with slavery
> (human enlightenment) and that 2) legalized slavery will never be a
> part of this nation again (The Constitution has this covered.)

Tell that to anyone who's ever been conscripted into military service.
Or, for that matter, anyone who's been sucked into jury duty against
their wishes.  Or to the high school students in Maryland who soon
will be required to perform 75 hours of "voluntary" community service
as a prerequisite for getting their diploma...

The important point, though, is this: although Western civilizations
have, mostly, progressed to the point where governments no longer
advocate or condone slavery or genocide, there are still a _lot_ of
laws out there in the United States and elsewhere which are repugnant
to the concept of human independence, rights and dignity, and yet
which appear to have the support of the majority of the populace.

How will your World Government deal with the fact that a lot of
people, perhaps a majority, just plain don't want homosexual or
bisexual behavior to be legalized or condoned by the government?  Or
don't want to see the expression of disturbing ideas or beliefs
protected by the state?  Or don't want people to be free to do what
they want with their own lives and bodies?  Et cetera, et cetera...

> Our government is controlled by using a system of checks and
> balances, making the each of the three branches of our federal
> system watch and counter- balance one another (how else could we
> stop the government from taking away our rights?).  This same form
> of checks and balances could also be applied when creating a world
> government; see earlier postings of mine on this subject.

You think the United States model prevents the government from taking
away our rights?  When was the last time you tried to grow marijuana
in your front yard?  Or negotiate and consummate a sex-for-money deal
with a consenting adult?  Checks and balances don't mean diddley-squat
when a government's evil actions have popular support.

-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: WORLD GOVERNMENT
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:08:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.204231.27166@news.unomaha.edu> trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu (Stephen McIntyre) writes:
>gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu  writes:
>
>> sm> Stephen McIntyre
>> 
>>sm> [E]ducation is the best way to help society protect itself from the
>>sm> blatherings and blubberings of political and/or religious propaganda.  It
>>sm> would be a good tool in creating a more unified, and informed, world.
>> 
>
>[Gary Strand]
>
>gs]   Under a WG, who will run the education system? The WG? If so, you should 
>gs]   examine what's been happening with education in the US. If anything, too
>gs]   many citizens are becoming *more* susceptible to government propaganda.
>gs]   Read Chmosky or Chomsky-lite (ie, Harel) to see what I mean. 
>
>Let the individual countries run their own school systems (as the
>     states do here.)  Better yet, allow private enterprise to run 
>     the schools.  
>     
>Citizens become more susceptable to propaganda precisely because they
>     lack a good education.  With T.V. and commercial magazines doing 
>     the thinking for them, people are killing off their minds, 
>     strangling the very thing that could protect them from irrational
>     pinheads with a presuasive voice and power on the mind.  So, what
>     can we do then?  Keep T.V. from the people?  Regulate the hours
>     a station can run programming?  I don't know.  Any suggestions?
>     
>Stephen @Trajan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
>> strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF

simple restrict television advertising. This is ALL the restriction
neccessary for television then. Television will become more educational
and less commercially-consumeradvocating pander to the lowest common
denomenator. Look the best television is on the channels without
commercials PBS TVO BBC etc... 
I REST MY CASE
.

Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Scudbusters
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: DESY ZEUS Central Data Acquisition
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:13:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.224611.19196@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

|>In article <1992Aug14.155840.8387@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>
|>rats@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Morris the Cat) writes:
|> 
|># In <1992Aug14.150800.5879@cs.brown.edu> Danny Keren states:
|> 
|># |#Remind me, is this the same Israeli AF that executed the infamous
|># |#attack against the slow-moving, non-stealthy, and ill-defended
|>USS
|># |#Liberty?  A ship the Israelis couldn't identify after hours of
|>recon,
|># |#and didn't after three attack waves?  Or so goes the official
|>story...
|>
|># |#Seems to me that either the Israelis aren't so hot at identifying
|>and
|># |#killing targets after all, or that the Liberty story as told in
|>public
|># |#is wrong.  Take your choice.
|> 
|># |Mistakes happen in war, even to the best and most expereinced
|>air-forces.
|> 
|># Hmm, interestingly enough, I happened across a letter written by a 
|># member of the USS Liberty Veterans Association several years ago
|>[NOT
|># James Ennes] to a magazine. He makes it clear that ECM pods carried
|>|># onboard Mirage IIIs (I believe that's the designation of the
|>Israeli 
|># Mirages.) were set for U.S. Navy communications frequencies, AND
|>WERE 
|># NOT WIDEBAND JAMMING.
|> 
|>	Do you (or perhaps the author of that letter) know anything about
|>the laws of physics, radio frequencies, military intelligence,
|>counter
|>intelligence?

Perhaps someone could publish a list of these "US Navy frequencies"? It
sounds awfuly decent of them to stick to the same ones all the time. I
read in Spycatcher that we Brits are dastardly enough to keep changing
ours so as to avoid jamming! Perhaps the US should consider buying some
of our British Communications gear with these modern features?

BTW what particular logic was there in setting a post about Israeli
jamming to US distribution only?

For what it's worth I don't think that Jakes comparison of the Osirak
incident with the Gulf war is appropriate. Comparing single missions
with battles or entire wars is futile.


Phill Hallam-Baker
From: Jake.Livni@iphase.UUCP (Jake Livni)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.UUCP
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
Date: 11 Aug 92  01:06:17 EST

Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department

In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug5135554@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <BsIq2I.vx@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:
>>    For better or worse, spying is a fact of life on friend and foe. Don't
>>    accuse Israel of doing what everybody ( including the U.S) does. 

>First, do you have any evidence that other major US allies (Britain,
>France, Germany) spy on the US?

The latest Information Week, August 10, 1992, states in a story on 
computer security and espionage:

******************

Corporate spies take many shapes, including your competitors, foes of 
the US government, even supposed allies.  Last year, Pierre Marion, 
the former head of French Intelligence, admitted his country had been
spying on IBM, Corning and TI for a decade.  "In economics", he said,
"we are competitors, not allies."

******************

If you think that the French Intelligence were only stealing unauthorized
copies of OS/2 from these kinds of companies, and not militarily sensitive
information (and materiel?), then you are naive.

At the time of the Pollard case, one American official (I don't recall 
who) admitted that everyone spies against everyone else and that the
US routinely spies on Israel.  "You don't think that all those antennae 
on top of our Embassy in Tel-Aviv are there just to get the Sunday 
football, do you?"  Remember what Reagan used to say?  "Trust but verify."

Spies among friendly countries get caught every once in a while and 
are quietly handled.  In the Pollard case, Weinberger and the White 
House decided to make a very noisy case of it.  Spying isn't unusual
at all.  Putting people away for life for spying among friends is.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
 * Origin: Gated from uucp to Fidonet by FredGate (1:112/28.0)

Xref: sparky misc.headlines:5535 alt.activism:14677 talk.politics.misc:39082