HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 16:10:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!
>
>
>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
 While many have contended that Scouting is a religious organization, it is
a non-denominational one if it can be considered religious.  Other beliefs 
do not necessarily discredit Jesus, and even if they do, they are tolerant
of Christianity in this setting, as you must be tolerant of them.  If you do 
not feel you can tolerate other religions, you really only have two options:
1). resign as a leader, or 2) have another leader who is comfortable work with 
the boys on these issues.  I would hope that the first is not really an option,
but if you find it such a difficult obsticle that you impede a boy of another
faith, then that is what you should do in keeping with the scouting traditions
of non-interferring with one's religion, although it is different from yours.
But if you do not have a problem with allowing others to work with these boys
then do so.  The BSA is not a prosletyzing organization, and should not be 
used as one, and if it is then a gross miscarriage of Scouting has been 
accomplished.  it is not immoral for a Christian to foster spirituality even 
in one of another religion, but it would be immoral for you to try to 
convert the boys in your care.

Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88
From: ewn@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: OA
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:14:15 EDT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

In article <1992Oct2.212408.24461@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu
> 
> This weekend really bothers me, because I expected the best if the best
> kids to be in OA, but I learned differently.  As a 14 year old scout, I
> know that OA elections are much more a popularity contest, than meaningful
> elections.  What are your feelings on this event?
> 
>    WWW,
>    Jeremy Goldman
>    Troop 18 --> Owings Mills, JCC i
You have every righ tto complain, and I hope they did more than just write a
grudging apology for their behavior.  The OA is a brotherhood, and members
should treat other members as such.  Even the candidates.
It's also very true that the elections are popularity contests.  I waited
several years while the popular crowd dwindled, then when I was elected, it was
because I was in the new crowd more than anything else.  I wish there was
something that could be done to stress the importance of leadership and service
of the potential candidates, but I sure can't think of anything that hasnt
already been done.

						Michael Baswell
						Eagle Scout despite all that
 



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Resica memories
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 18:40:22 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <_v=p1gn@lynx.unm.edu> anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>in a water fight, it's great fun, and this is similar, but instead of water,
>we had solid ammunition, and the weenies didn't hurt, because they're so
>soft, they'd splatter the minute they'd hit someone, which made it all very
>messy, adn even more fun.
>  Anyway, That's all for now, you may not find this funny, but it's 
>a lot of fun remembering.
 I knew I'd forget something,   part of the really nice thing about this 
was that up until then, getting assigned to work the food crew was considered
a punishment, but when the Weenie Wars began, everyone wanted to do food.  
Where before I had to literally beg people ato help, now they were asking me 
if I'd get them assigned to be on food crew.  It changed a hated job into a 
fun and friendly job and that was a real good benefit!  
WWW
Dominick
(AKA the Bird Nerd)
From: wepps@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (William R. Epps)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:29:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA

In article <1992Oct5.134601.15826@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.131105.4629@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>>
>>This is apparently quite a hot button for this group!  The last thing I
>>want is for you rec.scouters to think I am at all anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic,
>>or any other anti's you label me with...
>
>But you go on with your anti-anything-but-Christian stuff.
>
>>...  I guess as long as it is clear to everyone 
>>involved that the Scout award given to the boy who has achieved an Islamic/
>>Jewish/Hindu/Buddist emblem is to not be interpreted IN ANY WAY as PROMOTING 
>>or ENCOURAGING his faith, then I would be comfortable supporting it.  But how 
>>can it not promote or encourage?  Isn't that the purpose of an award??
>
>Yes. That is the purpose of the award, and the stated purpose of having
>"Reverent" in the Scout Law. I believe that "respects the beliefs of
>others" means more than refraining from actively interfering or
>persecuting them. Your attitude may be appropriate for a leader of
>a Christian youth group, but not for scouting. How would it look for
>the leader of a scout group to actively promote and encourage the faith
>of Christians (only the right kind of Christians, too, I bet) while
>grudgingly tolerating others, considering following the scout law on
>this point to be a moral dilemma (your words)?
>
>In this respect Christians like you are much worse than homosexuals, since
>only an idiot would think that homosexual scout leaders would try to
>discourage boys from being hetersexuals or actively promote homosexuality.
>Most believe that sexual orientation cannot be promoted in that way anyway.
>But for you trying to make converts and being clear that your actions are
>not to be interpreted IN ANY WAY as PROMOTING or ENCOURAGING others to
>practice their faith is an admitted religious duty. Thank goddess not
>all Christians in scouting are like that.
>
>Bill Mayne

	If I could make an observation, it would appear as if ALL of us are
getting away from the 12th point of the Scout Law.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@phi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:45:46 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.170749.9478@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>
>...  I explained that scouting is
>made up of volunteers and if you don't volunteer, then there is no
>room for your kid.

I can understand the plight of packs and troops which can't get enough
adult participation and the burden this puts on those who do participate,
but I am somewhat disturbed by a policy of not allowing kids whose parents
can't or won't get involved. They need scouting the most.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: ad538@yfn.ysu.edu (Robert Warburton)
Subject: Re: Names of Troop Leaders
Reply-To: ad538@yfn.ysu.edu (Robert Warburton)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:07:26 GMT


In a previous article, kathy@oracorp.com (Kathy S. Knight) says:

>                                     I do believe, however, that
>whatever mode of address is used,  should be used by everyone
>in the community or it could cause a lot of unnecessary problems.
>
This has generally been best for us when with other groups.

As far as names, when the whole troop is together, we usually
use Mr. and Mrs. Some of the older scouts use our first names,when on outings with just the older scouts.

This fits well with other situations, as well. This past summer,
our troop went to our council cabin in Canada with another troop.
The other troop had some rules that did not sit well with our kids.
(Nothing major, just rules of how they run things.) When the troops
were together, our kids pretty well followed their rules, and when
by themselves, we used our rules. I felt it was good for them, it's
never too early to learn sometimes you have to do things you don't want to
do, in all aspects of life.



-- 
                                   ,,,
                                  (o o)
------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo-------------------------------
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 4 Oct 92 22:48:24 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
> I was wondering
> how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma. 
> 
> Todd Stevens
> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

Fortunately for you and for everyone else, this is a false dilema.  Religious
awards are given by the religious organization in question, not by the BSA.
A Religious Emblem is not a Scouting Award, it is an award conferred on a
scout by his religious leader.  (SEE: Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 624)

If you continue your involvement with Scouting and join a Boy Scout troop,
you will learn about the Scout Law, the 12th point is:

"A Scout is Reverent.  A Scout is reverent towards God.  He is faithful in
his religious duties.  He respects the beliefs of others." (Handbook, pg. 8)
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> As a Christian,
> I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
> further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.

People whose religious beliefs are not Christian are not Anti-Christians.
This is particularly for those religions that predate Christianity.  The fact
that most of the people in the world are not Christian is not a discredit to
Jesus or Christianity.  

Dan Kary
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 00:05:30 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct5.213710.23991@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:
>
>[...]
>>The BSA's "any religion is good" philosophy is a laudable attempt to
>>remove the far nastier "my religion is the one true religion, so I'm
>>better than you and don't have to respect you" attitude fostered by
>>many churches.
>[...]
>
>This may be what the BSA is attempting, but I don't think the ends
>justify the means.
 That's because you're in the "my religion id the one true...." and 
do not wish to believe that there are other possibilities.  
>
>The reason to tolerate other religions is not because they are right,
>good, or better than nothing, but because by tolerating the religious
>(and even irreligious) belief of others we increase the chances that
>our beliefs will be tolerated. Tolerance of others' beliefs is also
>important for those of us who believe freedom of conscience.
 wrong.  The reason to tolerate other religions is because they are equal 
to yours in validity.  when you understand that, then maybe you won't be 
showing yourself to be quite so ignorant afterall. 
(my apologies to everyone else for this jab, it was too good an opening
to pass-over, pun intended.)
>In other words, I don't respect everyone's religion, God/gods,
>prophet(s), and philosophy, but I do respect everyone's right to
>believe and disbelieve what they wish. The BSA in contrast, seems to
>respect everyone's religion (even though many are contradictory), but
>not everyone's right to believe and disbelieve what they wish.
 Ahh, and here is the crux of the matter.  YOU DO NOT RESPECT OTHER
PEOPLE"S RELIGIONS.  Then you do not follow the principles of the BSA>
Then get out.  Simple.  Just as you say to others who can not be in the 
BSA becuse they are being HONEST and TRUSTWORTHY by being open 
about themselves being lesbigay, at least lesbigays don't try to 
lie about accepting others with the idea to convert them.  
 And respecting a religion does not mean believing in it.  It means 
accepting that they are equally valid and neither is better or worse
than another.  Surely you can understand that?  
>
>- Carl
>--
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@eta.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 20:41:10 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!

Those supporting the BSA's policies requiring troops to discriminate
against atheists and homosexuals have justified the policy on the
grounds that it amounts to nothing more than denying membership to
those who are not in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law*. How many
of them (Stan Krieger, who is not a Christian excepted) will now apply
their alleged principles consistently and say that a Christian who is
disturbed to read about religious awards for other BSA-approved faiths
is displaying intolerance which is inconsistent with the Scout Law and
should therefore be excluded? Should this apply to all sincere born
again Christians? Note that such an attitude will make it difficult or
impossible to perform duties required of scout leaders. What will it do
to the self esteem of a boy if his assistant cubmaster is so hostile to
his faith that he finds it "extremely difficult" to present an award,
and hopes never to have to do so, i.e. never to have a boy of another
faith in his pack, or that any who are don't qualify for certain
awards?

I would be disturbed even if special arrangements were made to have
someone who does not find it so difficult, i.e. someone less
prejudiced, stand in for the leader who would normally present it.  The
change in procedure is bound to be noticed. Can you imagine a
Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist scout coming home and asking his parents "Why
wouldn't Mr. Stevens present my award?" If you were of another faith
would you want such a man as your children's scout leader?

While on the subject of negative, prejudiced attitudes which are not
only against the ideals of scouting, but may even violate the standards
of the BSA: Is a racist qualified for a leadership position? If not,
how is the case of a religious bigot any different?

Bill Mayne

(* Whether or not atheism and homosexuality actually violate the ideals
of scouting is another question which has been beaten to death here.)
From: hilding@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Hilding Holroyd)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Help-Troop Software-DOS
Summary: Look in Scouting Magazine
Date: 25 Sep 92 19:41:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Concurrent Computer ,Oceanport NJ

In reply to the request for Scouting Software (in the US):

Check out your latest copy of SCOUTING magazine. There is an
ad for TROOPMASTER/PACKMASTER software. I just purchased
TROOPMASTER and it provides me with most of what I want. Somethings
I would want different but all that is part of buying packaged software.

The company also has financial s/w. So check it out.

(outside the US, email to me & I will send you the phone # & address.)
H. Holroyd
Eagle Class 1968
SM T-82/Jersey Shore Council, NJ
-- 

US MAIL: Hilding W. Holroyd - CONCURRENT COMPUTER CORP.(Ex MASSCOMP,Interdata)
FAX: 908-870-5952    2 Crescent Place, Oceanport NJ 07757   PH 908-870-4558 
UUCP:  rutgers.edu!ocpt!holroyd    or   Internet:  holroyd@ocpt.ccur.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Subject: Re: OA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 05:49:00 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon) writes:
>    In the case of my election, my ASM hinted strongly that the scouts should
> vote for his friend.
> 
>    In the case of the election, I ran, the SM of the troop came right out
> and said that people should vote for him.
> 
>  I agree that these elections are totally against the concepts of Scouting and
> the OA, but I must ask what is an election team member supposed to do ?
> 

Leave immediately.  Do not distribute ballots, do not conduct the election.
Report the events to the Elections Chairman and the Executive Committee.

> But, it is impossible to prevent a Scoutmaster
> from saying what he wants, and if you try, there is a chance that the SM
> could simply ask you to leave.
> 
> Greg
> 

I don't know how your lodge conducts elections.  In our lodge elections are
conducted by a team of Arrowmen who are not members of the Troop holding the
elections.  Results are turned in by the election team on forms signed by
each of the election team members.  If the SM asks you to leave, he has just
cancelled his own troops election and no one is elected.  He may schedule
one at a later date if the lodge will permit it.

The Scoutmasters part in the election process is to approve candidates.  Once
the SM has approved the candidates he is out of the picture, he has no more
say or participation in the process (other than scheduling the time of the
election).  Most particularly he cannot withdraw his approval of a candidate
after the election, which is another ploy some Scoutmasters have used to try
to influence elections.

OA election team members need to be trained.  These issues need to be addressed
so that the election team members can know what to do in these situations
and can act decisively and confidently.

WWW
Dan Kary
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Can the Knot be carried forward to Boy
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:31:42 GMT
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando

In article 19090@col.hp.com, kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary) writes:
>Incidentally, the Scouters Key (adult award) can be earned by Cubmasters,
>Scoutmasters and Commissioners.  It is appropriate to wear a Cub, Scout,
>or Commissioner emblem pin on this knot to indicate the position where it
>was earned.

Not true anymore. Cubmasters may complete the requirements for the Cubmaster's
Training Award. You may see a Scouter's Key with the Cub fixture. That was
the appropriate award prior to 1988 plus a one year grandfather period. 
The Scouters Key and the Scouters Training Award was replaced by a series of
awards tailored to specific Cub Leader positions. The new Cub Leader training
awards are for Cub Scouter, Den Leader, Webelos Den Leader, Den Leader Coach
and Cubmaster.

The Scoutmastership Fundamentals version of the Scouter's Key includes the
requirement to serve as a Scoutmaster for three out of five consecutive years.
That would seem to exclude commissioners unless there is a different set of
requirements for them. I though the equivalent for commissioners was the 
Arrowhead award.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson                              Martin Marietta E,I & M Group
mwilson@orl.mmc.com                      Mail Point 170
Phone: (407)356-6386                     P.O. Box 555837
Fax:   (407)436-5482                     Orlando, FL, 32855-5837
My opinions are my opinions, Martin Marietta can speak for itself.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Can the Knot be carried forward to Boy Scouts(was Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?)
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:47:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: umassd.Bvnnvz.C0u
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.

In article <1992Oct5.134012.15590@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, mpb@troy.uucp (22161-bunz) writes:
>If a boy earns his God and Me emblem (Protastant) and knot, can he continue
>to wear the knot when he goes into boy scouts?
>
>I'd assume so, since it is NOT a Cub Scout award, and thus would not
>violate the fact that the only patch that can be carried forward is the
>Arrow of Light.
>
>But I'd like to find out for sure.
>
>Marc
>

Yup. As a matter of fact, they also at one point made pins to add-on to the knot, 
to show which of the religious emblems was earned (some, but not all religions, 
sponsor awards for both Boy & Cubbing - Roman Catholics have *three* of them).

Also, if I remember correctly, the religious knot is the only knot that a youth
can wear (mainly because, in all other cases, they are still eligible to wear the
original patch-version of the award, e.g. Eagle or Arrow of Light)
***************************************************************************
* Dennis J. Wilkinson, II                * BITNET:    PNSF01DW@UMASSD     *
* Senior Macintosh Programmer            * Internet:  pnsf01dw@umassd.edu *
* Design/CS Project                      *                                *
* University of Mass. - Dartmouth        * (508)999-8896                  *
***************************************************************************
*    Insert disclaimer whereever -  they *are* MY opinions, after all!!   *
***************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
From: hunt@ee.ualberta.ca (Darren Vincent Hunt)
Subject: Re: Valiant: Shooter's second son
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 07:57:59 GMT

Thank you for making my day.  I was beginning to think that I was the
only one who thought the NEW Universe and Valiant's Universe was
similar.  I brought the topic up at my comic store, but the guys there
brushed it off, thinking nothing of it.  I am glad I am not alone.
X-O RULES!
From: dhenry@plains.NoDak.edu (David Henry)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Viz comics
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:12:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20752
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <J22RRB9w165w@flex.com> dcha@flex.com (Doug Cha) writes:
>Does anyone read any Viz comics?
>
>Try the Ranma 1/2 series..  it's expensive, but well worth it.

I read Viz, and Ramna's cute, but not awesome.

You may want to try posting to manga to find more vocal fans of Viz-type,
and real import, comics.
-- 
David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club - CTHULHU in '92! Why vote for LESSER evils?
For Kate is a jealous God, and requires sacrifice./What was your question?--K
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS // Thanks... for the memories.--Rogue
dhenry@plains.nodak.edu * ud137927@ndsuvm1.bitnet * ud137927@vm1.nodak.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.comics:23702 rec.arts.comics.misc:3089