From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:06:17 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:

> Remember, the Constitution LIMITS the power of government and reserves most
> rights (and decisions) to people.  There is a clear idea of privacy
> contained in the Bill of Rights...

Not when it comes to matters illegal, immoral, or unethical.  The feds can
tap your private phone conversations if they have a enough reason to
suspect illegal activity, and can get a judge to concur.

> And the Bible is IRRELEVANT to our system of government.  It is valid ONLY
> for those who accept it as the guiding principle of their lives.  I do.
> Many others don't.  And I won't impose it on them.

Interesting theory, but that's not what God says, or our founding
fathers(tm) for that matter.  Consider the following article.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       "Underground, into the shadows"

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done
what is detestable," says Leviticus 20:13.  "they must be put to death;
their blood will be on their own heads."

For a Christian, the basic rationale for suppressing homosexual behavior --
along with adultery, incest, rape, theft, kidnapping, murder, bribery,
slander, fraud, oppression of the poor, and so on -- is simple; the Bible
says so.

A Christian who objects, in principle, to the illegalization of
homosexuality has the responsibility to confront biblical law honestly.  If
the Torah is truly God's word, and not just the megalomaniacal ravings of a
desert cult leader, then it is the objective standard of truth, in terms of
which all men, institutions, and ideas must be judged.  It really comes
down to the one question that has troubled humanity since the days of Adam
and Eve: Is God's word our standard or not?  Ultimately, there is only one
other alternative, the word of the serpent.

To those who object that the biblical laws against homosexuality come from
the Old Testament, I reply; so what?  Isn't the God of the Old Testament
the same as the God of the New Testament?  Is there any biblical indication
that his ideas of morality have changed?  The Marcionite heresy -- that the
evil, vengeful god of the Old Testament has been replaced by the New
Testament god of love -- is alien to the Bible itself, and was rightly
condemned by the early church.

It is true that the New Testament does not specifically command that we
have laws against homosexuality -- but then the New Testament doesn't
specifically command laws against murder, extortion, or anything else.
There is merely St. Paul's general statement in Romans 13:4 that the civil
ruler "is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the
wrongdoer."

The obvious question at this point is: What is a "wrongdoer"?  Who decides?
It is only reasonable to assume that St. Paul expects the ruler to consult
God's law, rather than his own imagination or the latest poll results, to
discover what "wrong" is and what the appropriate punishment should be for
any offense.  Any fair reading of biblical law to discern its wisdom for
the nations inevitably leads to the conclusion that homosexuality should be
suppressed.

This doesn't mean rounding up all suspected homosexuals for prosecution.  A
biblically-ordered legal system requires proof of wrongdoing; multiple
lines of evidence and independent witnesses to specific acts in order to
convict.  The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.  Moreover, even
in the most favorable circumstances, it is difficult to find credible
witnesses, and in the nature of the case this would be especially true of
homosexual acts.  Note that it is not "effeminate" tendencies, appearances,
or mannerisms that fall under the Bible's legal ban, but specifically-
defined sexual behavior.

The fact is, rampant homosexuality poses both moral and physical dangers to
society.  The sanitized, Holloywood prime-time version of homosexuality --
sweet, gentle, "gay" men of heightened artistic sensibilities strolling
along a beach at sunset -- masks the real truth: homosexuality is a
degrading, sadomasochistic perversion that inextricably entwines sex with
blood and excrement.  Even before AIDS came along, homosexuals were
crawling with all kinds of revolting diseases, direct consequences of their
acts -- "receiving in themselves," Romans 1:27 says, "the due penalty for
their perversion."

None of this should be read as condoning "hate crimes" against homosexuals.
Anyone who murders a homosexual should be put to death. Anyone who beats up
a homosexual or destroys his property should be punished as severely as if
he had assaulted anyone else.  We should not, however, create special
categories of hate crimes.  Such attacks are always wrong, no matter who
the victim is.

This should not be perceived as a utopian program to eradicate all sin.  In
a fallen world, there will always be homosexuality.  But it can be driven
underground, into the shadows where it belongs.

                                        David Chilton
                                        _World_ Magazine
                                        Vol. 7 #20, 10/10/92



--
Tom Albrecht