From: lee@coredump.npac.syr.edu (Lee C Brink)
Subject: Re: The "his", "he" Issue
In-reply-to: brokow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu's message of Tue, 18 Aug 1992 01:29:30 GMT
Organization: Northeast Parallel Architectures Center (NPAC)
	<LEE.92Aug17100933@coredump.npac.syr.edu>
	<1992Aug17.171418.16237@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1992Aug18.012930.23612@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 09:16:28 EDT

In article <1992Aug18.012930.23612@news.acns.nwu.edu> brokow@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Mike Brokowski) writes:
   In article <1992Aug17.171418.16237@midway.uchicago.edu> 
   hasn@midway.uchicago.edu (Sheheryar Hasnain) goes
   >In article <LEE.92Aug17100933@coredump.npac.syr.edu>,  
   >lee@coredump.npac.syr.edu says
   >
   >Lee:  Technically pronouns never have to
   > be used at all, as they're a replacement for previously used nouns.  Why
   > would I want to increase the amount of words I have to type just to 
   > placate
   > nitpickers who take offense to slights such as this?
   >
   >Sheheryar: So change it to "she." By opposing this (which I am sure you do,
   >with respect that is)
   >who is the nitpicker now?  Strange things happen when tables are turned!
   >Hey, maybe the widespread dissatisfation with writing the extra words will
   >help this wonderful language "evolve" a little further, and find that
   >precious word that stands for "he"/"she"/"his"/"her".

   Do Sheheryar and Lee know one another? If not, Sheheryar seems to 
   be setting up a straw man ( or straw person :-) ). Regardless, 
   whether or not Lee would oppose this is not really the issue here. 
   The fact is that if we started saying "she" to mean "she or he" no 
   one would know that we meant to include the male gender.


  No, we do not know each other. I've noticed while reading this group for some
time (Posting from these machine until recnetly has been tenuous at best, so I
waited until it was proven to work reliably). Sheheryar has a tendency to 
"read" into the words more than what was put there.
  As a side note, replacing "he" with "she" changes the word, but not the
original problem (As stated by Mr. Brokowski). 


   Linguistic traditions evolve largely due to conveinience. If we 
   could implement a totally new word that meant "he or she" 
   unambiguously (the definition of "he" relies upon context) and do 
   so without causing an undo amount of confusion, then I would agree 
   to it in a second. Unfortunately, I do not see a mechanism which 
   allows for this kind of instantaneous consensus on language.


  Language, from what I've seen (Like I said before, I'm a computer geek &
not a linguist expert :-), takes centuries for definitions of words to change 
and be universally accepted.  I would be very surprised if tomorrow, we all 
agreed to use "op" (For example) to mean "he or she."


   >Lee:  If minor things such
   >> as the use of a pronoun is enough for someone to scream "sexist," then
   >> IMO nothing will satisfy that person.
   >>
   >Sheheryar:  The contrary.  If it is so minor a thing, then why argue about
   >it?  Change the word to "she."  I don't think that any changes will have
   >to be made in any dictionary,just usage. I am assuming that you agree since
   >you're against nitpicking and other minor things!  :-)
   >Language is an integral part of social communication
   >and, therefore, relationships.  Dissatisfaction about communication
   >warrants serious consideration.

   I agree, but language *necessarily* involves some reference to 
   context to be meaningfully interpreted.  Whether the speaker or the 
   listener provides the interpretation is a matter of convienience.  
   If I think my listener is too dim to get my meaning or I have 
   somehow confused the context, I will say 'he or she', otherwise I 
   assume that an unspecified 'he' denotes both genders.  Why do
   anything else?  IMO, People who automatically assume the worst 
   intention of any speech (especially in the face of established
   conventions) serve principally to frustrate themselves, 
   inconveinience others, and detract from communication in general.


  At least someone has a better grasp of the English language than I :-).
I agree with the above wholeheartedly.  If some people look for "he" in
a document and assumes that it's sexist, than there is no way to please them
(Eg: Mr. Hasnain).

    Lee


--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Lee C Brink	            | Office Support Co-ordinator at NPAC	   |
| lee@nova.npac.syr.edu     | Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY 13244-4100 |
|			    | 315-443-1722				   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+