From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 04:50:38 GMT

In article <thos.712197489@suite.sw.oz.au> thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:

: >: but there is no country on the globe whose borders are proof against 
: >: people who want to get in or out.
: 
: >If that were the case, the Australian government must prosecute the father.
: >Have you ever tried to cross borders illegally? There is always a finite
: >chance that you get caught either now or later.
: 
: I'm sorry, but that is the case. Even the East Germans couldn't stop
Didn't they? How many actually escaped compared to what they have now?
5 out of 10 millions. If you think that is a lot, then, anything can be true.
You can even die tomorrow. Is that the basis of your argument. Slim chances 
treated as facts.

: people escaping to West Germany, and their front line immigration officials
: were armed with automatic weapons.
Have you ever considered why these people risk lives and break LAWS?
How do you expect a father to react when he feels that his children's future
is threatened. If people are willing to risk lives, why not this one.

READ THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH AGAIN CAREFULLY!
: 
: >	Just because borders are not foolproff, then why bother with immigration
: >laws and customs. Surely your judgement is faulty. You are applying the 
: >perfect case to be valid to through another view. Why can't I apply the same
: >back at you. Can you prove conclusively that the father had kidnapped the
: >children? If not then it should be otherwise. Use your common sense. Your
: >biased views towards ISLAM has cluttered your brain.

: 
: And yes, I can prove that the father kidnapped the children - he did
: not have permission to take them out of Australia, and they are now
: in Malaysia. As they are not of an age to make such decisions themselves
: (ie. their mother is their legal guardian) he must have kidnapped them.
Is that your standard of Justice? Do you know what kidnap means? If you take
your minor son to a movie without the knowledge of your wife, do you call it
kidnap.
	Obviously the Australian Family courst and Australian Police though
otherwise. Unless you think you know more than the law men.


: 
: >: The base point I'm trying to make here is that how the children are
: >: being raised is no affair of anyone outside Australia except perhaps
: >Even if they are Malaysian citizens. Come one what sort of common sense are
: >you applying?
: 
: Ah, but what if they're Australian citizens, dwelling in Australia?
: What sort of common sense or justice are _you_ applying, that the
: children can then be taken from the mother?

What if the citizens are Malaysian and the children are kidnapped by the 
mother? By kidnap, I mean the real KIDNAP? Detained without permission of a
person. Unless you do not consider a minor as a Person, WHICH you are again
implying.

: 
: 
: Yes, he has broken the law. And your argument about arguable duration is
Even if he has broken the law, only the courts can decide that. Not you.

But that was not what I was emphasising. I was talking about your double
standards. Reread the paragraphs.

: specious and wrong. Parents in cases like these have visitation rights
: for a set period of time, normally a weekend. Learn something about
How long?
: what you're talking before you put your foot in it.
You should read carefully before you make any comment.

: 
: >	The father may now proceed with court case to contest the custodian
: >right if he wants to. He may not want to. He just want to bring the children
: >to Malaysia to observe our ISLAMIC custom in the true sense instead of being
: >brain-washed by Australian society.
: 
: Well, now you're letting your Islamic bias clutter your brain.
Read the phrase "may not". 
: You haven't managed to prove anything except your own bias. Listen to
: yourself. Everything that disagrees with what you say is because the
: person is biased against Islam? Get real, and accept arguments on their
Aren't you? Have you ever read the koran? I have read the testaments and also
other religious teachings. I also lived in UK for 5 years to gauge the knowledge
of the people and press about ISLAM.

: 
: >	View yourself in their positions. Would you listen to your mother to
: >hate your own father? Not for us. Maybe you are full of hate even to your own
: >father.
You are absolutely right. The children come at their own free will. Not
kidnapped. They do not care about Australian Law. What they care for is their
father.
	No matter how hard the mother try to separate them from their fathers,
they would not listen. RESPECT their RIGHTS as a HUMAN BEING.
 Maybe You are the one who hates their fathers? Western people are not
well taught to respect elders, am I right?.

: 
: Huh? Are you getting personal here? Maybe you're an ignorant jackass with
: the manners of a baboon, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the
You said it, but did you do it.
: doubt. Which apparently, you're not willing to extend to others (unless,
: perhaps, they're Islamic).

read my words like "may".

: and not Australian. Mine is based on the reverse. Unless one of us is 
I did not bring it up. You did. I just apply the same argument back to you.
My argument is "LISTEN to the children". Forget about bureucracy.

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean