HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Subject: Re: Psychology and Interrogation
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:52:47 GMT

elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:

>From article <DLB.92Dec14152938@fanny.wash.inmet.com>, by dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton):
>> In article <00724175210@elgamy.jpunix.com> elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric
>> Lee Green) writes:
>>    You first train compliance for simple tasks. Then you gradually
>>    train compliance for more and more complex tasks. Eventually -- and
>>
>> Have you any support for this rather remarkable statement?  Are you
>> really stating that ANY individual can be "trained" to comply with ANY
>> order in six months?  Is there any data to support this?

[Erik's description of being a 'tough' teacher']
>I've seen it at work in my own classroom, by the way. Two of my students
>are labeled as "Emotionally disturbed-- oppositional." In the beginning,
>the children would comply to a few requests, but would not comply with the
>majority of requests. I lavishly rewarded compliance for those few things
>that they would comply with, and enforced consequences for non-compliance
>(timeout, loss of priviliges, "logical consequences", etc.). I was
>extremely consistent with the behavioral system. The children slowly
>generalized from the specific requests that they were rewarded for, to
>all requests in general. As a result, I have very few instances of
>non-compliance in my classroom, and most of them are resolved by me saying
>"Follow directions", repeating the directive, and removing my attention (at
>which point the child grumbles and mumbles and then gets back to work doing
>what I told him to do). For those of you who complain that this is
>authoritarian -- yes, it is.

I remember in my elem. school, one of the 5th grade teachers was the
'tough' authoritarian, on the outside you would think no body liked him,
I can't remeber one kid that DID NOT want to be in his class. He was very
strict but very fair. I cried when I found out I was not going to be in
his class. I was also labeled "Emotionally disturbed--oppositional" and
a few other 'uncorrectable' things. Looking back he was kind of a
boot-camp for 5th graders.

-pete
Pete Lancashire
petel@sequent.com
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: cravener@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Patty Cravener)
Subject: Re: Psychology and Interrogation
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:24:14 GMT

There are reams data, Dave.
The annoying thing about this newsgroup is that so many people seem
to believe that if they don't know anything about a subject, nothing
is known. All sophomores, I wonder? Any introductory textbook in
learning (a subspseciality of psychology) will equip you with the
baseline information you need.

Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 13:03:39 EST

In article <1992Dec14.190632.4466@samba.oit.unc.edu> wilkman@med.unc.edu (Alice Wilkman) writes:
>Mark is an academic psychiatrist, I would be interested in
>knowing what kind of clinical trial of the NLP Phobia Cure
>he would consider to be worthwhile or if he considers it so
>completely without merit that it should not even be
>considered as one limb of a clinical trial.

I know that some people on the net are very enthusiastic about this
phobia cure, but otherwise I have no way of knowing whether it has
merit as a clinical method or not.  I don't even know what the phobia
cure is.  I would be pleased to see the results of a controlled trial
of the NLP phobia cure.   I tend to think many simple phobias are mild
& self limiting kinds of problems, so would be eager to see a well
defined patient sample.  Part of the point of my previous posting is
that the people who should carry out such a trial are the people who
are making claims about this form of treatment.  It could make for a
good master's thesis or doctoral dissertation, even.


Newsgroups: sci.psychology,alt.hypnosis
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<1992Dec10.015242.20409@news.Hawaii.Edu>
	<1992Dec10.053512.18233@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:13:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.053512.18233@samba.oit.unc.edu>
wilkman@med.unc.edu (Alice Wilkman) writes:

   In article <1992Dec10.015242.20409@news.Hawaii.Edu>
   lady@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Lee Lady) writes:
   
   >It should be very easy to discredit a procedure as simple and fast
   >as the Fast Phobia/Trauma Cure or some of the other techniques
   >I've described on usenet.  These techniques are not secret, after
   >all.  They're described in print and can be watched on videotape.
   >They take less than half an hour to do and the claim is that the
   >results are apparent immediately.

   I as I recall, Lee did supply Dr. Gordon Banks with the Fast Phobia
   Cure this fall.

   Have the results been "published" on usenet and did I miss the
   posting?  If that is the case, I apologize and if someone has saved
   the article I would most appreciate a copy.

I feel constrained to repeat here what I posted at the time; that I do
not believe that presenting an otherwise untrained (in NLP) person
with a single procedure and inviting them to perform it is a
legitimate test.  It is a good personal experiment, but not a "make or
break" demonstration.

There are a lot of things that can interefere with a specific
procedure, which you are trained to look for in NLP classes.  Ecology
concerns are a primary one, which can easily interfere with the
efficacy of a fast phobia cure.  This is an area where Mr. Lady (I
think I may have called him "Mr. Lee" in a previous post; it was a
slip, and I apologize) disagree strongly.

   Additionally, last spring, Charles Faulkner, NLP Trainer, offered a
   day of his services to demonstrate the cure if someone else would
   supply the clients and write the paper.  (This fall, when I posted
   a query about that offer, I did receive a response from a
   statistician who volunteered his services in the case that I heard
   anything.  I heard nothing else from that query.)

This is a MUCH better experiment, and I would be glad to hear its
results.  (Note: without more information, I don't know if it is a
really good one).

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
From: bouche2@server.uwindsor.ca (BOUCHER DAVID            )
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: news
Date: 15 Dec 1992 21:35:34 GMT
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada

In article <1992Dec10.193426.2411@dct.ac.uk> mcsdc1al@dct.ac.uk writes:

>If you took a strong-willed man and wished to extract information from him,
>how, psychologically speaking, would you go about taking this information from
>him.  
>The basic premise is...

>a) A spy is kidnapped and taken away from civilisation and placed in a
>completely fabricated society.
 
[remainder of scenario deleted]

Try watching some reruns of the late 1960's TV show called "The Prisoner".  The
scenario you describe is the premise of the show, and the various schemes that 
they come up with to "break" the prisoner are far more entertaining than 
anything you are likely to encounter here...

- db

qwe rty uio p[] asd fgh hjk l;' \zx cvb nm, ./
QWE RTY UIO P[] ASD FGH JKL ;'\ ZXC VBN NM. ./
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21:15:38 EST

In article <DLB.92Dec11131331@fanny.wash.inmet.com> dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) writes:
>   Additionally, last spring, Charles Faulkner, NLP Trainer, offered a
>   day of his services to demonstrate the cure if someone else would
>   supply the clients and write the paper.  (This fall, when I posted
>   a query about that offer, I did receive a response from a
>   statistician who volunteered his services in the case that I heard
>   anything.  I heard nothing else from that query.)
>
>This is a MUCH better experiment, and I would be glad to hear its
>results.  (Note: without more information, I don't know if it is a
>really good one).

If NLP advocates really want NLP to be taken seriously, they are going
to have to do considerably better than this.  So Faulkner is a
charismatic therapist, does a mind-blowing demonstration, so what?  Its
like Uri Geller at SRI bending spoons.  Why can't (or why don't) NLP
advocates take some pieces of the theory and subject them to reasonable
experiment, and verify its claims with some basic outcome research?
They say, in effect: "it works, you prove it."  If you wanna be in the
mainstream, you gotta know how to swim. 


Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 21:05:13 EST

In article <DLB.92Dec11130253@fanny.wash.inmet.com> dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) writes:
>In article <MAS.92Dec9193200@porgy.jpl.nasa.gov>
>mas@porgy.jpl.nasa.gov (Marc A. Sarrel) writes:
>
>   But, I would argue that a responsible therapist should not
>   incorporate NLP without the aformentioned scientific process having
>   been applied.
>
>This is a standard which very few psychological clinical procedures
>have passed (like none).  Clinical practice in the psychological
>fields tends not to be supported by research.

I suspect that many psychologists would disagree with you.

>
>There is some support (not a lot) for some of the cognitive therapies
>over a "placebo" (an interesting term applied to psychological
>therapies).  There is also, buried among the "crappy research" that
>Mr. Lee refers to, some indication of an equivalent level of NLP
>effectiveness (not greater).  This is about as good as anyone gets.

I don't think so.  The cognitive therapists do not consider the results
of their pubhlished research "some support."  Some psychoanalytic
psychotherapists point to a body of published literature and say that
their form of therapy is of established efficacy across a wide range of
conditions (I wouldn't agree with them).  What's different is that NLP
doesn't have peer reviewed research results which support or don't
support NLP's theories and claims.   


Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ingres Division, ASK Computer Systems.
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:52:56 GMT

David Barton writes:
>> incorporate NLP without the aformentioned scientific process
> a standard which very few psychological clinical procedures
> have passed (like none).

Counterexample: systematic desensitization.
Counterexample: behavior mod.

> Clinical practice in the psychological
> fields tends not to be supported by research.

Probably true, in the main.

But certainly true of medical practice until about the war.
Testing treatments for safety and efficacy started earlier.
It took a while for the number of proven treatments given
in a year to outnumber unproven ones.  Part of that is the
time it takes to test existing treatments for safety and
efficacy.  And part is just the time it takes for a generation
of doctors to retire who don't believe what they "know" needs
to be tested.  "I've seen it work in my practice!" and so on.

> your best indication is the practice of professionals in the field

As the above indicates, this is a sorry "best".  Had we settled
for this with medical practice, your chances of survival would be
enhanced by not going to a doctor.  This was the case before we
insisted on objective tests of treatments, and it would still be
the case now.  The history of medicine is a treasure chest of
examples why you're better off not depending on the opinions
of "experts" when objective tests are available.

-- Jon
From: jacobson5821@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Advice for a new parent
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:19:19 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

My wife and I have a one month old daughter.  I would like any advice on how my
wife and I can help our daughter grow up as a psychologically healthy women.  I
would especially be interested in advice that could help us act as parents that
can nurture our little girl in positive ways.  Thanks in advance, Paul
Jacobson.
                        
email me at JACOBSON5821@iscsvax.uni.edu

                                Thanks again,
                                                Paul

Newsgroups: sci.psychology,alt.hypnosis
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<DLB.92Dec11130253@fanny.wash.inmet.com>
	<1992Dec13.210514.15495@newstand.syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:39:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.210514.15495@newstand.syr.edu>
mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline) writes:

   I suspect that many psychologists would disagree with you.

Some would, some would not.  You and I have had this debate before,
and simply come to disagreement.  Given that you are in the field and
I am not, I suspect that many on the net will agree with you.

   I don't think so.  The cognitive therapists do not consider the
   results of their pubhlished research "some support."  Some
   psychoanalytic psychotherapists point to a body of published
   literature and say that their form of therapy is of established
   efficacy across a wide range of conditions (I wouldn't agree with
   them).  What's different is that NLP doesn't have peer reviewed
   research results which support or don't support NLP's theories and
   claims.

My "not a lot" comment is probably due to my rather selective reading
of the literature, which is out of interest and not out of
professional necessity.  I am aware of a couple of PhD theses that
compare NLP techniques and cognitive therapy procedures, and found
them equivalently effective; I am aware of no peer-reviewed journal
articles that state the same.

Apologies if this is late; I have been following this on one of the
cross-posted groups, and have only recently gotten as far as
sci.psychology.  I am cross-posting back to alt.hypnosis, as the
discussion began there, and I think people there would be interested
in Dr. Kline's response.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
From: stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Layout and scanning for overview?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 14:59:16 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

   I am wondering if anyone can point me to some studies on the effect of
document layout on the reader's perception of the information therein.
I am referring to what Whaller calls the "access structure", I guess how
whitespace etc contributes to an understanding of what type of information
is contained in different portions of the document.

 If you can suggest where I might look even, that would be helpful.

Thanks,

Steve Portigal
-- 
/-------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Steve Portigal  University of Guelph  Guelph, Ontario      |
|  stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (519) 824-4120 x 3580      |
\-------------------------------------------------------------/
From: elg@elgamy.jpunix.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 10 Dec 92 19:58:35 CDT
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: Histamine levels and Schizophrenia
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <1992Dec9.152537.5610@netcom.com>, by noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring):
> This is a fairly broad and sweeping brush-off of Pfeifers work.  Many
> of the case histories given by Pfeifer in his book are very compelling.
         ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

"Case histories" is the keyword. Just talk to the average American fad diet
company. They can trot out dozens of people who will tell you, "I lost 100
pounds on the XYZ diet and I feel great!".

Unfortunately, they don't tell you about the 100,000 people who GAINED
weight on the XYZ diet....

The point, the point: it ain't scientific until it has been double-blinded
and replicated. Until then, it's merely interesting speculation and wishful
thinking with probably a huge case of selection bias (like the 12 people
in the entire world who lost weight on the XYZ diet :-). Maybe Pfeifer can
haul out some "compelling case histories". But until he hauls out
correlational studies and double-blind experimental data, as a researcher
I'd react just as the original responder did -- with a "Harumph! Bunkum!"
and a brush-off.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.jpunix.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Psychology and Interrogation
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<00724175210@elgamy.jpunix.com>
	<DLB.92Dec14152938@fanny.wash.inmet.com>
	<1992Dec15.182414.16687@news.Hawaii.Edu>
	<DLB.92Dec15141727@fanny.wash.inmet.com>
	<1992Dec16.221218.3927@news.Hawaii.Edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:22:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.221218.3927@news.Hawaii.Edu>
cravener@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Patty Cravener) writes:

   Poor Dave... none so sad (nor so invincible) as those who WILL not learn...

   Let's let him have his little tantrum, don't you think?
							  (probably there
   is some area of human endeavor wherein he does feel safe and competant, 
   after all... though clearly that subject is not human behavior)

Uhhh, yeah.  Right.

Question answered, I think, to both our satisfactions.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<1992Dec13.211538.15550@newstand.syr.edu>
	<DLB.92Dec14154825@fanny.wash.inmet.com>
	<1992Dec16.132257.16669@newstand.syr.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:32:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.132257.16669@newstand.syr.edu>
mdkline@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Mark D. Kline) writes:

   The problem is that truth be told, clinicians regularly use a lot
   of techniques which are unproven and may be harmful if not just
   wasteful.  Psychoanalysis was the regnant model for years.  People
   really believed that free association helped; some still do!
   Nowadays there are therapists "helping" people recover their
   repressed memories of sexual abuse which never happened (not to say
   that there is no such thing as sexual abuse, of course there is).
   The fact that licensied clinicians use a technique doesn't prove
   anything.  Part of what this means, of course, is that the
   techniques used MAY really have value...

All true.

A personal request, of the net: is there a survey article somewhat
intermediate between the general philosophy of scientific
investigation, and specific instances of investigations of
psychological techniques for efficacy?  Dr. Kline has suggested a
couple of the latter as a model (which, for lack of time, are still on
my "to do" list); however, something general enough to address
questions of the construction of scientific experiments for efficacy
with respect to clinical techniques, yet more specific than the
construction of efficacy tests in general (particularly pharmacology)?
A recent example brought up (for example) the use of a placebo in the
case of complex medical instrumentation (as opposed to a simply
administered medication).  I can visualize a placebo for such a
procedure fairly easily, and even a corresponding placebo for a diet
program (to an extent).

What I have a problem visualizing is a convincing placebo, or even the
determination of a true independent variable, for a lot of clinical
practices; free association does nicely as an example.  Can this be
separated reliably from the simple direction of attention to a
particular problem area?  Can an independent variable be separated in
the case of a complex of treatments, based to an extent upon the
intuition of the clinician?

This might help focus my thinking a bit, at least.  A (fairly cursory)
survey of a local library has not revealed anything that seems to fit
this bill.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,alt.hypnosis
From: strohm@mksol.dseg.ti.com (john r strohm)
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (FAQ)
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:56:31 GMT

On the subject of James Randi and fraud:  Some years back, there was a piece
by Martin Caidin about some work he was doing.  He allegedly invited Randi
out to take a look at the work.  Caidin's description of the following
exchanges makes interesting reading.

The piece was in one of the Baen "Destinies" or "New Beginnings" or "New
Destinies" bookazines.  I don't remember which one; it has been too long.
From: albrecht@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Chad Edward Albrecht)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: Re: urgent help needed
Date: 17 Dec 1992 23:58:19 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4


By the way...If I sounded harsh it was only my crude opinion!  But
I usually try to get some information on my own!

--



-----------------------------------------   "The chess board is the world,
|	albrecht@csd4.csd.uwm.edu	|    the pieces are the phenomena 
|      albrecht@convex.csd.uwm.edu      |    of the universe, the rules of
|        acct146@carroll1.cc.edu        |    the game are what we call the
|       COMPUTING SERVICES DIVISION     |    laws of nature."
|	   UNIX  CONSULTING             |
|	   MICRO CONSULTING	        |           --T.H. Huxley
|     EMS 229-5370 Bolton 229-5317      |
-----------------------------------------
From: koehler@secs.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.biomed
Subject: cerebal palsy ->speech
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:21:59 GMT
Reply-To: koehler@secs.ucsc.edu
Organization: UCSC Molecular Engineering Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: moleng.ucsc.edu

Hi -my cousin has cerebal palsy.  I visited him and the thought that he 
could use a speech synthesizeer to speak occured to me.  He totally imobile,
but can very much move his eyes.  He communicates via eye movements.  
I thought that the military has eye tracking goodies (for example pilot
eye-tracking) that may have been extended to the civilian market?
My plan was to have his eye's be tracked (laser sytle ?) and he could be
looking at a keyboard (with common words also so he wouldn't have to spell 
them) then the words he types be put through a speech synthesizer.
Does anyone know of anything that may work?
Any help would be great (certainly for Matthew),
	-Ryan
Newsgroups: sci.engr.biomed
From: kilman2y@fiu.edu (Yevgeny Kilman)
Subject: BM MS programs..
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:12:03 GMT
Followup-To: sender
Keywords: BMS MS

Hi!

In Spring '93, I will graduate with BS degree in computer science.
I am interested in getting MS in BME. If you know any good program
anywhere in the USA, please tell me about it.

Thank You,
Y.Kilman.
e-mail: kilman2y@max.fiu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.biomed
From: jmains@engr.latech.edu (John P. Mains)
Subject: Bending Detection?
Reply-To: jmains@engr.latech.edu
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:20:07 GMT


I am looking for a material or sensor that will change either current, voltage, or resistivity as it is 
bent.  It needs to be able to withstand ALOT of bending without much damage.

If you know of anything even similar, please email me.

----------
Thanx
jmains@engr.latech.edu
John P. Mains