HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pnr0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PAUL N. RITTER)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Bad cops - a perfect example
Date: 20 Dec 92 04:19:10 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Dec17.190934.11772@dvorak.amd.com>, markl@dvorak.amd.com (Mark L
uedtke) writes:
>In article <cm=rr9f@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>>rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) writes:
>>
>>>My brother is a cop in Phoenix.
>>
>>...
>>
>>>My brother once followed a guy for 5 blocks, waiting for him to
>>>screw up.  The guy apparently saw him following so he didn't do
>>>anything wrong.  When my brother got tired of waiting, he pulled
>>>him over anyway.  Why?  The guy yelled obcenities at a fellow
>>>officer who was directing traffic (a thoroughly thankless job
>>>if you ask me).  The result?  The guy recieved a citation for
>>>"unnecessary noise from a motorized vehicle." :-)  He was extremely
>>>belligerent during the whole process, which simply made my
>>>brother feel that much better about writing the ticket.
>>
>>This came from rec.guns but the proper followup belongs here.
>>Here is a perfect example of the kind of pigs that give them all a bad
>>name.  And this guy thinks it's funny.  Maybe one of his belligerant
>>victims will put one right between his eyes one day.
>>
>>John
>
>That whole discussion on rec.guns turns my stomach.  I should not have to
>worry about being shot by a supposed law enforcement officer for openning
>my glove box or getting out of my car after being pulled over.  IMHO, it
>just supports my contention that on a daily basis, I am in more danger from
>cops than any other group, and that situation is only getting worse.
>

    What you may or may not realize is that cops are being blown away on
    "normal" T-stops. I define "normal" as---a break light out, headlight out,
    driving with lights out, expired reg stickers/inspection, etc.,etc.
    Naturally a cop is going to be a little abrasive when coming up to a
    vehicle...they are wondering if it is a businessman/woman or a 1st rate
    drug lord with the intent to make way for HIS enterprise. It's a shame
    that cops get such a bad rap. Think of this before you make your next
    judgement....Imagine life WITHOUT cops. Good and bad ones. I can picture
    an Al Capone movie right now. You think the crime is bad now, picture it
    WITHOUT law enforcement. Fort Nox would be no more and the Brink's holdup
    would look like a candy store....
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    Disagree if you must, but you'll NEVER take my guns...Not while I'm alive.
                           --Paul
_______________________________________________________________________________


>--
>
>Mark Luedtke    markl@dvorak.amd.com
>
>This was typed by an infinite number of monkeys.
>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: For gun control? No not really.
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:33:00 GMT

In article <105170@bu.edu> merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) writes:
>If we do not limit availabilty than I must assume it
>remains as easy for any person as it was for Wayne
>to get his gun. Being only 18 he would have had more
>trouble getting a six pack.

Not close.  Then again, I note that coke is rather easy to get despite
the legal restrictions, so ....

>My position then is I shall arm myself.

Go for it.

Merritt apparently believes that disarming him can provide benefits.
He's wrong.  (Disarming him at best is a no-op and won't disarm anyone
who is worth disarming.)  He thinks we should be shocked by the
possibility that he might have several guns.  If he's like the rest of
us, there's no risk.  Should we jail him so that we won't be
"shocked"?

-andy
--
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Subject: Re: 20/20 to crucify FFL holders
Keywords: FFL, criminals getting FFLs, HCI agenda
Organization: Dell Computer Co
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:37:35 GMT

>The ABC show 20/20 this Friday at 10 PM will target the "Evil FFL
>holder" and how easy it is to get a license to traffic in arms to
>the criminal community.

I just watched the show, and it wasn't as offensive as I thought it would be.
The main thrust was about how easy it was to obtain an FFL, with an alias, or
even as a Felon, because the qualification process is so easy.  Also, they
used a few cases of FFL's being used to purchase illegal firearms for gang
warfare, etc.  Of course, they use that 'Saturday Night Special' magic word,
how could they resist?

Also shown was a clip of a gun show where they had an undercover camera 
watching dealers make illegal sales and asking things like "You're not a cop
are you?".  

I suppose the BATF should be required to make sure that FFL's aren't issued to 
known criminals, or at least to REAL people, rather than made up names.  I also
guess they could require some sort of training course, like for CCWs, just to
make it slightly more legit.  The problem is, the more you legislate it, the
easier it is to just take it all away.  I have a hard time deciding on these
issues, because it is clear that people abuse the existing laws, and I can't
see how to correct that without burdening all the honest folks out there
unnecessarily.

They also discussed in the show the problem of dealers not verifying FFL's
at all, claiming that it is easy to forge one, and send it in, and they don't
bother to check it, but just send you what you order.  I imagine that most 
dealers are probably pretty responsible, but I have no way of knowing for sure.


-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: Lloyd Bentsen and ATF
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 05:34:32 GMT

In article <1h2f6lINNjsk@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>A friend of mine recently pointed out that as Secretary of the Treasury
>Lloyd Bentsen will be over the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and
>therefore have some influence on the Clinton Administration's gun control
>policies.  I have understood that Bentsen is pro-gun.  So is his presence
>in this position likely to have any moderating impact of importance on

According to Neal Knox, Bentsen will probably not go out of his way to
hurt us, but party loyalties are more important than just about anything
else in Washington D.C.  If Clinton says "Jump!" Bentsen will say, "How
high?"
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Bad cops - a perfect example
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 19:16:44 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) writes:

>My brother is a cop in Phoenix. 

...

>My brother once followed a guy for 5 blocks, waiting for him to 
>screw up.  The guy apparently saw him following so he didn't do
>anything wrong.  When my brother got tired of waiting, he pulled
>him over anyway.  Why?  The guy yelled obcenities at a fellow
>officer who was directing traffic (a thoroughly thankless job
>if you ask me).  The result?  The guy recieved a citation for
>"unnecessary noise from a motorized vehicle." :-)  He was extremely
>belligerent during the whole process, which simply made my
>brother feel that much better about writing the ticket.

This came from rec.guns but the proper followup belongs here.
Here is a perfect example of the kind of pigs that give them all a bad
name.  And this guy thinks it's funny.  Maybe one of his belligerant
victims will put one right between his eyes one day.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: jlw3@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Joseph L. Wood, III)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: For gun control? No not really.
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:56:36 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Middletown, NJ

In article <1992Dec17.222701.13246@guinness.idbsu.edu> betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) writes:
> In article <105170@bu.edu> merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) writes:
> 
> >The ammo he obtained via mail.
> 
> this is not a big deal.  he could have purchased the ammo at
> k-mart.  
> 
> >Killing two wounding four. He put the gun down and surrendered.
> >
> 2 dead out of 6 total casualties = 33% fatality rate.  good thing
> he wasn't using a 12-gauge.  it would have been 4 or 5 dead and
> 1 wounded instead.
> 

Actually it's probably a good thing that he did not buy the ammunition
at K-mart.  I doubt that K-mart would carry surplus military 7.62x39
ammunition and what the perp would have been firing would have been
the much more deadly expanding bullets intended for hunting and not
FMJ as prescribed by the Geneva (Hague?) Convention.


Joe Wood
jlw@mtuxo.att.com
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Juvenile Gun Ordinance Seems Ill-Informed Legislation
Date: 16 Dec 1992 01:11:56 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <92350.125746GUNDEVIL@ASUACAD.BITNET>, GUNDEVIL@ASUACAD.BITNET (Shooting Club@ASU) writes:

>   The current Phoenix juvenile gun ordinance accomplishes what all well-
>   intended but ill-informed gun legislation does - it places an uncon-
>   stitutional burden upon law-abiding citizens while impacting criminals
>   not at all.

A summary of the law, please, for those of us who don't live in Phoenix?
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Merry Christmas
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:44:17 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department


It's Christmas time and you've been thinking about getting that
semi-automatic rifle and going down to the local mall and
spreading some Christmas Cheer. 

Wayne Lo, an 18 year old American of chinese decent did almost
that on Monday night. Mr. Lo who was arrained yesterday, killed
two people and injured four others on the campus of Simon's 
Rock College in western Massachusetts. At his arraignment Wayne
showed a little emotion as he stood sullenly with his shaved head
and T-shirt that had the words "Sick of it all." printed
on it. Wayne was an `A' student and a basketball standout. He
hails from Montana where his parents operate a restaraunt. 
Mr. Lo a talented violinist is a bigot by his own admission
and advocated the killing of Jews and gays. He had argued in the
school newspaper that the United States should annex Canada and
send AIDS victims there to be quarantined. Last Sunday alledgedly 
called a student couple and threatened them, the couple
a white woman and a black man were told to "Watch out.". 
The assistant principal of Central Catholic High School in
Billings, Montana , said of Lo "He was a good student,
a normal kid.". Mr Lo immigrated to America from his native
Taiwan six years ago. 

Mr Lo puchased a semi-automatic rifle Monady, he was apparently
able to obtain the weapon without a firearms identification
card. The ammunition was puchased through the mail.
The rifle was a Soviet made SKS type, $300.00 retail.
There is a an exemption for out of state residents buying 
firearms, under Massachusetts law Lo had only to show his
Montana driver's license and fill out the correct forms.

The murder victims where a student and a professor. The injured
were a security gaurd(unarmed), and three students. 

It's been a bad week in the Bay State, what with the holidays
and all:

In an unrelated incident a man shot a woman whom she had a restraining order
out against and then killed himself, in Brighton(Boston).

Monday afternoon a 18 hispanic year old youth was killed by a shotgun blast
in what is described as a "gang killing".(Jamaica Plain, Boston)

On Friday two 16 year olds and a 20 year old were "ambushed" on
on a crowed street in Dorchester(Boston). They 20 year old 
was DOA and the two teenagers are in critical condition.

A .25 caliber semi-automatic pistol was taken form a 14 year old
female student at a Boston High School yesterday by school
security guards. She said she didn't feel safe in school without
her "piece". 

--sjm



-- 
Sean J. Merritt		         | "Every revolt is a cry of innocence    
Dept of Physics Boston University|  and an appeal to the essence of being."
merritt@macro.bu.edu             | Albert Camus, The Rebel
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: Bad cops - a perfect example
    <1gt8oaINN53r@transfer.stratus.com> <75818@apple.apple.COM>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:07:43 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace) writes:

>Could this happen?
>  A rash of cop-killing is occuring when the cop stops a car for speeding.
>  The driver rolls down the window and starts firing at the officer as he
>  approaches. The officer dies.  There was no reason for the officer to think
>  the speeder would be a threat, so his gun wasn't drawn.  This event happens
>  a lot, over 10 cops a day are killed in the US every day this way. So the
>  Weclome to the police state.

     Lets see, that would be over 3,560 police killed each year in this way  
     alone. Do you have a source for this claim?
     We all are aware of the dangers of the police business. This thread was
     discussing the abuse of power in law-enforcement though, different topic.
From: strait@cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey C. Strait)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Price Hike
Date: 17 Dec 1992 16:25:01 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cheetah.csl.uiuc.edu

In article <1992Dec16.090205.9497@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>, romigr@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes:
> The anti gun climate is driving the price up on the semi-auto's
> AR-15 was $650 now $875 and up. Mini 14 up $150.

The most recent Gun List has an ad from CDNN with
     Colt Sptr 7.62 @ $499
     Colt HBAR .223 @ $599
I don't know where you are getting your prices !


 			NRA/ILA

-- 
Jeff Strait                        | strait@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois             | or jstrait@uiuc.edu 
Coordinated Science Lab, C&SRL     | PHONE:    (217) 333-6444
1308 W. Main,Urbana IL 61801       | ...all the usual disclaimers.
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: The pro-RKBA political spectrum (was Pro-choice/pro-gun stuff )
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:56:22 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Dec11.191941.9685@mcs.anl.gov> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov
(Michael A. Shaffer) writes:
>Don;
>
>I want to address this one statement without blowing up the abortion
>thing again. I think that I know you well enough to be sure that
>I can do this but I want the others out there to know what I am doing so
>we don't get tied up in the issue itself.

Dear t.p.g readers,

My apologies to anyone I might have offended by continuing to participate
in the discussion of that issue.  I was not doing so simply to be a jerk
or out of a twisted desire to draw attention to myself; rather, there was
an underlying question I have had in my mind but not in a clearly defined
form.

I guess the best way I can present it is to ask people what they see in
the future, for people from various locations on the political spectrum
who are pro-RKBA.  Will organizations such as the NRA continue to focus
solely on the Republican and Democratic (right!) parties or will they
start to endorse (or at least rate) third party candidates?

My position, personally, is that for several reasons i find myself unable
to vote for a Conservative of the Bush mold.  While I find the idea of
abortion repugnant, I maintain that it's not something the Government
should be meddling in; while I despise people who become dependent on
illegal drugs, I also think the War on Drugs ought to be called off. I am
also in favor of legislation that tries to give everyone equal opportunities
based on their abilities, though I'm completely against guaranteeing equal
outcome; I'm no Socialist.

Unfortunately, here in California the Republican politicians who are
more moderate in their political beliefs are also soft when it comes to
supporting RKBA.

Is this an interesting and appropriate topic to discuss here?

>I _know_ that this is an oversimplification. I might accept in
>less danger but not totally free of danger. BTW y'all second ammendment
>rights are GONE in the peoples republic of Illinois.

Does this second paragraph refer to something the news hasn't covered?  Are
you talking about the new Congressional "representatives" from Illinois?  Or
the sweeps through housing projects in Chicago?

I know that's ONE state I'll never move to...

    don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control
 a man's appetite by legislation and makes crimes out of things that are not
 crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which
 our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Baldwin  -  Software Engineer  - e-mail to:  donb@tamri.com
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Friday, 11 Dec 1992 16:49:49 EST
From: Nicholas C. Hester <IA80024@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: An annoying defense question
 <1992Dec11.202506.21954@raid.dell.com>

In article <1992Dec11.202506.21954@raid.dell.com>, mikepb@lupus.dell.com
(Michael P. Brininstool) says:
>
>> 2. No life-threatening acts occur, so you can't threaten him/her (legally)
>> with lethal force.
>
>another shootable offense here in Texas, I believe.  Couldn't the cutting
>of the phone line be a threatening act?  God, I love it here!

In Maine, the cutting of the lines would be regarded as a threatening
act and if you feel in fear of your life you can justifiably shoot them.

___

  Nicholas  Hester
ia80024@Maine.bitnet
ia80024@Maine.maine.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: The Ninth Not Dead Yet
Date: 16 Dec 1992 19:37:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

Last week, there was a discussion about whether it was reasonable
for the Supreme Court to establish new civil rights out of whole
cloth.  I argued that the process was underwritten by the Ninth, but
someone else argued that the Court considered the Ninth dead, and
went through some convoluted "emanation of a penumbra" argument to
get to the same place.

On alt.politics.usa.constitution someone posted a small excerpt
from Roe v. Wade that restores some of my faith in the Court.  It
seems that the Ninth WAS used, at least partially, as justification
for the "right of privacy."  From Blackmun's majority opinion:

"The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of 
 privacy.  In a line of decisions, however, the Court has recognized 
 that a right of personal privacy, or of a guarantee of certain areas 
 or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution.  In varying 
 contexts the Court or individual justices have indeed found at 
 least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, in the 
 Fourth and Fifth Amendments, in the penumbras of the Bill of 
 Rights, in the Ninth Amendment, or in the concept of liberty 
 guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment."
(Shapiro, Martin and Hobbs, Douglas S. : The Politics of 
 Constitutional Law, Winthrop Publishers, Cambridge, 1974, p.491)
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: kevin@msus1.msus.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: A&E "Killing Culture" - surprise
Date: 19 Dec 92 12:25:57 -0600
Organization: Metro State U, Minneapolis MN

In article <1992Dec19.161711.7788@netcom.com>, damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
[ Comments about program deleted ]

I thought the program did show both sides of the issue more fairly than a some
of the other News media has.  However I believe the editing and especially the
"reporters" closing comments were extremely biased.  As was their profile of
Washington DC as the shoot-em up capitol of the world without any mention of
the stringent gun-control laws within the city.  

-- 
============================================================================
Kevin Whyte						kevin@msus1.msus.edu
	**Representing and speaking for no one but myself.**
"Still, the best augurs are those who divine from the portents of the past. 
They compile phenomenal records." Croaker "The Black Company" by Glen Cook

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Subject: Re: Crime and punishment (was Re: 20/20 to crucify FFL holders)
Keywords: FFL, criminals getting FFLs, HCI agenda
Organization: Dell Computer Co
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:19:20 GMT

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>There's always going to be someone who disagrees with the moral lesson
>that someone else would be teaching in a school.  That's all the more
>reason _not_ to teach morals in a school.  _MY_ children wouldn't
>attend such a school, even if I approved of the moral lessons.

Are you *sure* that this is not happening in the school they are attending?
Some of it is very subtle.  I would think if every parent were to make 
random visits to their childrens classes from time to time, they might be
totally amazed at the things being tought in public schools today.

>-- 
>-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
>  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
>  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
>  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
>  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________