HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hafting@Lise.Unit.NO (Helge Hafting)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia.....
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 22:41:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.161009.15360@eua.ericsson.se>, osstlm@eua.ericsson.se (Tomas Lundstrom) writes:
[Deleted included articles]
 > 
 > However, 
 > there is one thing I'm missing in this debate, the *costs* involved. The costs
 > directly or indirectly caused by alcohol consumption are *huge* in Sweden, and
 > still they are among the lowest in Europe ! (I think I remember a book last
 > year called "Supen kostar 200 miljarder"  "the Booze costs $40 000 000 000". A year !
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you sure about this number?  
 > I think that the costs (health care etc.) are a good measure of the consumption
 > of alcohol, better than the amount of bottles sold (and the supposed amount of
 > "moonshining"). (So, consumption in Sweden is probably relatively low)
 > 
 > So, if a majority in society wants restrictions, simply because that they don't
 > want to pay the price, I don't see the absolute evil in that.
 > Maybe it's everybody's "right" to manufacture and consume as much drugs as
 > he wants, but im not sure it's his "right" to have society pay his own hospital
 > bills, his drunk driving victims' hospital bills and funeral costs, as well as
 > his and others' companies costs because somebody didn't turn up on work a
 > monday morning, for three weeks, or never ...

Dinking do cost the society a lot of money, but don't forget that the society
earns a lot from it too.  I saw a TV-program a year or so ago where they stated
that alcohol taxes were among the 5 largest taxes here in Norway...

[deleted...]
 > Tomas
 > 

-- 
 |  |      ^         |  |      /   ^   o
 |__| _   /|  _  _   |__| _   /|  /|   |    _   _
 |  |/_) / | / \/_)  |  |/ | /-+-/-+- /| /|/ | / \
 |  |\__/  |/\_/\_   |  |\_|/  |   \_/ |/ |  |/\_/
            __/                /              __/





 
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa 
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:11:29 GMT

In article <TORKEL.92Nov16174217@bast.sics.se>, torkel@sics (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>   >A translation for you slobs who haven't bothered to learn Finnish:
>
>  Perhaps it will now be possible for everybody to agree, on the basis of
>this illuminating translation, that it's not a good idea to respond to
>Jarmo Ryyti's stuff.

Yeah yeah .. you damn swedes all are always generalizing things.
Don't you know that generalizations are always false?

(just to note that Jarmo had some points in the article also.  it
would be more fruitful to ignore the noise and concentrate on the signal)

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Rumpelstilchen (was Finnish: A world language?)
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:02:37 GMT

tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE writes:

>On the subject of useless language instruction in high school, I
>actually heard that tale during my high-school German. Wasn't the
>little feller called "Rumpelstilchen"? And when the queen told him
>"Heisst du vielleicht Rumpelstilchen?" on her third and final try to get
>her child back from this not-so-pleasant creature of the woods, he
>replied "Der Teufel hat dir das gesagt!" and tore himself apart from
>head to toe, or?
>
>The sens morale of the story is, that if Finnish had been an offical
>language of Sweden (for one reason or another), I would probably never
>have studied German, and then I would not have known about
>Rumpelstilchen, and frankly, that would have been an unbearable loss of
>cultural enlightment! :-)

Tomas's posting simply contains too many ifs to make any point at all. 

If I were allowed to study German instead of Swedish in high school, I would 
probably have heard of "Rumpelstilchen" too. But in that case I wouldn't
be able to watch Cafe Norrk|ping on TV4. What an unbearable loss!

Seriously though, now that I know Swedish enough to understand most of
what is said and written in that language, I don't really mind at all.
Our friends at the other side of Gulf of Bothnia don't have the privilege
of understanding Finnish and therefore their knowledge of Finnish people
and culture tends to be more superficial.

Janne Kivel{

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Svenska spraket
Date: 15 Nov 92 19:23:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: polisci.hberg.205
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1992Nov15.044246.19441@news.acns.nwu.edu> hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin N9ITP) writes:

>In article <Bx6LB8.CFG@news.chalmers.se> of soc.culture.nordic,
>  d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct28.080739.14191@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>> >Varf|r Tyskland och tyskar men Finland och finlandare?
>> >Kunde nagon froklara denna skilaktigheten?
>> 
>>   D{rf|r att ordet 'finne' har en dubbelbetydelse som du kan fr}ga
>> J|rn Donner om.
>> 

>V{nta nu h{r, {r det inte s} att finne = finsk etnisk backgrund (normalt
>finsktalande) medan finnl{ndare = finsk medborgare (antingen svensk eller
>finsk etnicitet och modersm}l)?

>       /hpa

OK, gang: Once more, from the top.....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakko
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:52:40 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov22.232650.14208@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki
Kuoppala) wrote:
> Nytten tietekki joku sitte sannoo t{h{n ett{ ei t{{l{ saa me{nkielt{
> ees yritt{{ kirjottaa ko sit{ ei kuitenkhaan ihmiset siel{ amerikoissa
> ja muuala k{sit{, mutta sanokhoot vain, ei veikkosen sit{ kaikenlaisia
> sanojia aina tarvi tosissansa ottaa.  Voipihan net aina painaa jotaki
> nappia jolla net p{{sev{ t{st{ki siutti, sunkhaan sit{ tarvi jokhaista
> sannaa lukea mit{ joku kone nokan etheen tuopii.

Not only that, I'm from 'Pohojanmaa' and it was quite hard to follow
this Finnish dialect, is it 'Savon murretta'? :-). We might start
a Finnish language war between 'Kautta Pohojanmaan' 1) and 
'kalaluut suun sivusta' 2) !!!

Cheers,
Kent

1) The motto for Finns on the West Coast when they drink
2) Known trick of the East Coast Finns, when they eat fish
the bones drop out from the side of the mouth

-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa 
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:42:17 GMT

In article <hberg.207@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
 writes:

   >A translation for you slobs who haven't bothered to learn Finnish:

  Perhaps it will now be possible for everybody to agree, on the basis of
this illuminating translation, that it's not a good idea to respond to
Jarmo Ryyti's stuff.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: Anti-foreign Attitudes in Scandinavia.....
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 06:20:18 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <By3qv9.F8w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, bhamis@mace.cc.purdue.edu
(Satya Bhamidipati) wrote:
>  I am curious to hear about anti-foreign attitudes in Scandinavia, 
>  especially in Finland. Does it exist ? If it does, under what 
>  circumstances and how ? I know there is a lot of resentment against 
>  foreigners in central Europe (especially Germany). The reason I am 
>  asking is, I plan to move there there for sometime (few years). 

If I remember correctly about 3000 foreigners live in Finland (mostly
Swedes),
a population of nearly five million people. If you get into
Finland, you are lucky, because it's harder to get a 'green card'
for Finland than USA.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: rpeter@nmsu.edu (Peter Herman x5495)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia..(with driving added)
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:56:42 GMT

In article <1e0n5gINNq3h@corax.udac.uu.se> dan@astro.uu.se (Dan Kiselman)
writes:

[lots of stuff deleted]

>So, I wouldn't mind a change in Swedish drinking "culture" so that those
>who drink shout less "Heeeeaaaaghhhh Hu Hu Hu". Such a change is not 
>impossible,
>since they way you behave while drunk is mostly something you have learnt.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
>I am fairly confident, however, that this won't happen by liberalising
>alcohol sales and thus increasing consumption (I can't understand how anyone
>could argue for a decrease in such a case.). 

I am sure that some of this sort of learning has taken place with
the help of some strict drunken driving laws.  While some groups of
Swedish young adults we know think drinking is "cool" or at least ok and
others are not much into drinking NONE of them that we know think that 
drinking and driving is an acceptable behavior.  When you contrast
this with US attitudes, you can see a big difference! Here the
extreme is the idea that being able to get your car home while staggering
drunk makes you cool and manly.  More commonly, people feel that
they have driven drunk once ot twice themselves, so it is hard to
condemn a drunk driver who gets caught.  Groups like MADD are trying
to change these atitudes, at least in part by changing the laws.

The attitude among young Swedes that drunk driving is uncool may have 
had its origins in the Swedish (and european in general) concept that 
driving is not a right but a privledge and that you must obey the laws 
associated with it or loose it.  In talking with 18-21 yr old Swedes, 
I get the feeling that the inhibition is no longer primarily legal 
but rather social.  Driving home drunk seems to be viewed not as
manly but as dumb, with legal consequences not really the main issue.
New Mexico has the dubious destinction for having the highest
traffic fatality rate in the US with about half the fatalities
involving alcohol.  I surely hope we can learn and change our
attitudes as you have done in Norden!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: The Finns of Sweden
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:57:26 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov23.070019.256@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) wrote:
> :  1. Do you still claim it was a complete genocide (=folkmord) of the
> :     Finns in northern V{rmland? Did the Swedish government kill every
> :     single Finn that lived in Finnskogen?
> 
> If we consider the treatment of red-indians in USA or in Amazonas
> as genocide the answer is yes, the genocide does not mean only concrete
> killing but destroying one's culture and language. Some may think
> the red-indians of America were not genocided or how you call it
> but they just did not manage to survive. For me genocide
> means destrying one's  culture &language. So my answer is YES.
> It was a genocide.

So why look at Amazonas and Sweden, there's a cultural genocide
happening in the Swedish speaking parts of Finland, every day?
The only difference is that we don't call it genocide, instead
'that's the way it is'.

If you insist that a cultural genocide is something scary,
talk with any of us Finnish-Swedes that know what it feels like.
And we don't exactly complain about it. So before you save 
the poor Finns in Sweden, could you try to save people living
in the same country as you? To start with you could stop
complaining about learning the second Finnish language in school.
That would already do us a favour concerning the local genocide
in Finland.


Kent
PS: I'm not rambling about possible genocide in Finland, but
if Mr. Ryti wants to continue talking about cultural genocide,
he should start by fixing problems in his home country, and not
Sweden. Same with other minorities in Finland that is subject
to his dreadful genocide case, like the Saami people.
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: ovr@lk-hp-4.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:32:49 GMT
Reply-To: ovr@snakemail.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Organization: L{nsi-Uudenmaan Keisarillinen Polyteknillinen Koulu

In article <1992Nov16.080233.22456@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>Liisa Nikki, Jyv{skyl{st{ v{itteli aiheesta tohtoriksi ja totesi, ett{
>Suomen koululaitos ei kuuntele kielipolitiikassaa koulun asiakkaita eli
>koululaisia ja heid{n vanhempiaan, jotka kiistatta haluavat p{{st{ eroon
>pakkoruotsista ja toivovat kielenopetuksessa "vapautusliikett{".

I wonder what the elementary school would be like if the authorities
only listened to the "customers", ie. children ages 6-16.

>Ps. Lopuksi olen sit{ mielt{, ett{ minulla ja kenell{ tahansa suomalaisella
>on oltava oikeus k{ytt{{ soc. culture. nordic uutisryhm{ss{ suomen kielt{
>halutessaan. Suomi on Pohjolan toiseksi suurin kieli. Ei voi olla minun
>syyt{ni jos ihmiset kielitaidottomuuttaan eiv{t sit{ ymm{rr{. Siit{ on
>minua turha syyllist{{. Kiitos.

Jarmo p}st}r her, at finsk er Nordens n{stst|rste sprog. Statistik, nogen?

Og jeg mener at jeg og alle andre finl{ndere skal ogs} have ret til at
skrive i s.c.n p} dansk, hvis denne viser sig at v{re Nordens n{st-
st|rste sprog. PV: Hbl har trykket flere debatartikler af Seppo Heikin-
heimo p} dansk.
--
Ott-Vill R______________________
ovr@snakemail.hut.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa 
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 08:42:21 GMT


Mielenkiintoista on todeta, kun kopioin arvostetun ruotsalaisen tiedemiehen
kirjoittaman artikkelin Ruotsin valtion harjoittamasta kielisyrjinn{st{
suomalaisia  kohtaan Ruotsissa, en saanut yht{{n kommenttia ruotsalaisilta 
tai edes suomalaisilta itse asian sis{ll|st{.

Kopioin artikkelin suoraan ruotsalaisesta alan aikakauskirjasta Minoriteter
och Invandrare tarkoituksella ruotsin kielell{, jotta se tulee selv{ksi.
Reaktiot olivat omituiset. Itse asiasta ei mit{{n. Onko niin, ett{ kanavalla
on hyvin, hyvin kapeasti maailmaa katselevia tietokonefriikkej{, joille kaikki
atk-alan ulkopuolella on vierasta. Olen itse yhteiskuntatieteilij{ alunperin.

Kun lainasin Aland Tidningenin kirjoituksia niin siit{ jo tuli
itse asian sis{ll|st{ jotakin, koska suomenruotsalaiset aktivoituivat.
(Olen itse asiassa henkil|kohtaisesti pyyt{nyt kirjastolautakuntaa aikoinaan
sen lehden kirjastoomme tilaamaan.) Ahvenmaalla vallitsee ilmi|, jota voi hy-
v{ll{ syyll{ kutusa ja kutsun sit{ fennofobiaksi.
Samanlainen fennofobia vallitsee Ruotsissa ja sen juuret ovat syv{ll{
historiassa.

Eilen kuuntelin autoradiosta, norjansuomalaisten  tilanteesta ohjelmaa ja
he totesivat, ett{ Pohjoismainen yhteisty| on l{hinn{ vain puhetta. He ovat
vuosikymmeni{ vaatineet Norjalta apua, jotta suomenkieliset radio-ohjelmat
saataisiin kuulumaan Pohjois-Norjassa, mutta viranomaiset vastustavat.
Puhuja totesi huvittuneena, ett{ kysymys on pelosta, norjalaiset pelk{{v{t,
ett{ suomalaiset
uhkaavat "puhdasta norjalaista Norjaa" ja omakielisen kultturin vahvistuminen
esim. suomenkielisen radio- ja tv-ohjelmien kautta vahvistaisi vain t{t{
uhkakuvaa.

Olen aivan varma, ett{ sill{, ett{ kiellet{{n ongelma: ruotsinsuomalaisten
olemassaolo ja asema ei p{{st{ pitk{lle Ruotsissa.
Se tulee olemaan aina kivi keng{ss{. Jos hiljaisuus asiasta on edellytys
"hyville naapuruussuhteille" niin olemme kyll{ aika brehnevil{isess{
kierteess{.


Mielest{ni, tosin vain omasta mielest{ni,Ruotsin vertaus Nazi-Saksaan ei ole 
kaukaa haettu. Ruotsissa on vain yksi kieli nostettu {idinkielen asemaan
muiden yl{puolelle -ik{{nkuin kaikkien muiden yl{puolella olevaksi
"arjalaiseksi" hienoksi kieleksi. Kaikki muut kielet ovat alempia, niit{
kutsutaan kotikieliksi. Saksassa harjoitettiin samantyyppist{ politiikka
30-luvulla. Suomella on asiassa puhtaat paperit, Ruotsilla ei. 
Siksik| ruotsalaiset reagoivat henkil|kohtaisilla loukkauksilla.
Ehk{ syyn{ on se, ett{ he haluavat n{hd{ ongelmat vain muualla, ei
liian l{hell{, omassa pes{ss{.

V{it{n, ett{ Suomen kielipolitiikka kest{{ hyvin vertailun Ruotsin kanssa.
Toivomus vastavuoroisuudesta vain koetaan loukkauksena, kuten on havaittu.
En arvosta sellaisia ihmisi{ kovin korkealle, niit{ tuntuu t{ll{ kanvalla
olevan yllin kyllin.

Terveisin,

Jarmo

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:14:38 GMT

In article <SUOPANKI.92Nov19191619@stekt7.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt7.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:

>Btw2, the term "{idinkieli" can be as offending (or more) as you claim
>the term "home language" is. I mean the cases when it really
>isn't the language your mother speaks.

Shouldn't you make a distinction between "{idin kieli" (or "{itini kieli")
as opposed to "{idinkieli".  Cf. "min moders m}l" vs. "mitt modersm}l"; my 
mother's tongue vs my mother-tongue.

There are some terrible misconceptions about language floating around out 
there, and much of Jarmo's jeremiads derive from these.  Recall, this whole 
thing started when Jarmo started worrying about Tyskland - tysk (rather than 
tyskl{ndare): Finland - finsk/finl{ndare.  The analogy is completely false; 
languages are not "logical" in this way.  You can't take words apart and 
expect their meaning to be the sum of their parts; it just doesn't work that 
way.

We've had a lot of this bullshit in US academia lately, especially among 
feminists.  Absolute howlers such as 'history' meaning 'his story'.  (Chalk 
this one up to the miserable state of classical and linguistic  education in 
the US).  Behind it all is the superstition that language creates reality, 
and that language exists as some kind of Platonic entity, independent of the 
individual.  I could write a dissertation about this.  Come to think of it, 
I should....

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Swedofobia in Jarmo Ryyti
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:27:21 GMT

Torkel Franzen (torkel@sics.se) wrote:
: In article <nkjrm.20@taxus.uib.no> nkjrm@taxus.uib.no (Rolf Manne) writes:
: 
:    >It is a vegetable called "kaalrot" in the Scandinavian languages.
: 
:   Swede = rutabaga ("rotabagge") = "the Swedish or yellow
: turnip, Brassica Napobrassica".

Is that all you can produce to this network, I am writing quite historical
facts and I am getting peronal insultants where people even who do not know
me pretend knowing me, quite interesting shamanism. No one cannot write
anything about the history of the Finns in Northern Sweden and about the
legislation over there. When I wrote about it I just got personal insults.
Is this level where we are?
Regards,
jarmo
From: d0chris@dtek.chalmers.se (Christer Borang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Gothenburg Revisionist Mathematics (was Re: Alcoholism...)
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:39:51 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg Sweden

tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
[zap]
>What kind of mathematics do they teach at the carpenting school of 
>Gothenburg, also known as Chalmers University of Technology? :-)
[zap]

>            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
>               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

		Tekniska H|gskolan, Stockholm you mean?
		(Technical University of Stockholm :)

//Christer
--
Det finns inget som g|r kvinnor s} vackra som alkohol och st{ngningsdags...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: vegard@bih.no
 (Vegard Engen)
Subject: Re: A question to Norway about Shetland Is.
Organization: Bergen College of Engineering, Bergen, Norway
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 17:47:45 GMT

Kjell Siimon (kjell@emke.chalmers.se) wrote:
> 
> Hello Norwegian brotherhod!
> 
> Here's a subject about the Shetland Islands in the North Sea.
> Those islands have for the last 500 years been ruled by the Union Jack.
> But before that they have been owned by Norway for more than 700 years.
> There are people living on the islands today claiming that they either want
> to be free, or ruled by Norway again.

Shetland Islands was given by the danish king as "medgift" because a princess
was to be married to a british prince. It was the deal that it should be
be possible to buy it back later too. It's part of the story that the princess
died on her way across the sea, so Shetland shouldn't really have been british
at all. Also, the sum to buy it back is ridiculously low, I think, something
Norway could definitely afford if it GOT that far. I guess that Norway doesn't
need Shetland so much that they want to try get it back....

> What do you think?

If the inhabitants there WANT to be free, they should perhaps have some sort
of voting over it, and then perhaps we'd see....I don't really know the
consequenses if Shetland was given back to Norway, on Norwegian economy etc.

> Is there any opinion about this in Norway?

Not really, I think. Though, I think most ppl would welcome Shetland if they
came back :)

> Kjell the Brave

--
Vegard Engen, Bergen Ingeniorhogskole, Bergen, Norway
Internet mail vegard@bih.no
From: kjell@emke.chalmers.se (Kjell Siimon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: A question to Norway about Shetland Is.
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:59:14 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


Hello Norwegian brotherhod!

Here's a subject about the Shetland Islands in the North Sea.
Those islands have for the last 500 years been ruled by the Union Jack.
But before that they have been owned by Norway for more than 700 years.
There are people living on the islands today claiming that they either want
to be free, or ruled by Norway again.
What do you think?
Is there any opinion about this in Norway?

Happy for any reply.


Kjell the Brave
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 09:56:46 GMT

ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:

>It's the issue of immigration and people that have lived in the
>same country since Medieval ages and before. I don't mind that Finns in
>Sweden will start pushing for a bi-langual country, some time in
>year 2800 A.D. You can't just move to another country and take it
>over, you have to earn the rights for your culture. If this wasn't 
>the case most borders would be closed, including the Swedish-Finnish
>one. There's a reason behind immigration, in the case of Finns
>that moved to Sweden it had to do with jobs and a higher living
>of standard. If you immigrated, you made a choice, and you should
>be *thankful* that the country accepted you -- instead of demanding
>everything between heaven and earth.

Don't you think Sweden should be thankful to Finnish immigrants for the work
they did for Swedish industry? I don't mean that Sweden has treated Finnish
immigrants badly, but Kent Sandvik only seems to tell one side of the story
in his postings. Kent also neglects the fact that there has always been
Finnish-speakers within Swedish borders unlike serbocroat-speakers. 

Janne Kivela"

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
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