HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:13:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: pixel.1992Nov5.141319.18078
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Trelford Pinkerton (linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
> November 5th is known as "Guy Fawkes Night", and all over Britain
> people fire off fireworks, light bonfires, and burn effigies of
> Guy Fawkes.
> 
And also the Pope, in a few places.

> Guy Fawkes was an Englishman who (in popular legend) tried to
> blow up the Houses of Parliament with barrels of gunpowder.
> He was caught, tortured, imprisoned, and finally executed.
>
Some believe it was a put-up job, that the Conspirators, while genuine,
were being manipulated by the members of the King's own circle of advisors,
so that the 'plot', when exposed, would allow an anti-Catholic campaign
to start.
 
>  
> The Gunpowder Plot occured on November 5 1605, two years after
> King James 1 (of the "King James Bible" fame) ascended to the throne.
> A group of English Catholics, of which Guido Fawkes was a member,
> decided to kill the King because he had reneged on his promises
> to stop the persecution of Catholics.  Catholics were routinely
> tormented for practising their faith, ever since Henry VIII (of the
> 6 wives) 70 years earlier in a stunning burst of arrogance had
> set the monarchy up as head of the church in England, and
> excommunicated the Pope!
>  
Well, Henry did his thing, but after that each side got a chance to
take on the other.  The rule of Mary (married to Philip of Spain and
pro-Catholic) was every bit as bad for Protestants as Henry, Edward,
and (to a lesser extent) Elizabeth were for Catholics.

> James I was always a despotic ruler, and his son Charles I was even 
> worse.  In fact Charles I forced a civil war in England, lost, and 
> was executed.  For 12 brief glorious years England was a republic, 

How serious was this history book?  The conflict with Parliament - actually
a set of increasingly powerful landowners and merchants - was something that
transcended the rule of a single King.  Charles was in the wrong place at
the wrong time.  He believed in all the old rules, but times had changed and 
he no longer had the means to back up his views.  He had lost most of the
necessary military means to rule, and wanted to import Catholic
mercenaries from Europe, which endeared him to the Protestants no end.

After his fall, the conflict continued and Cromwell, as Lord Protector,
wound up having all the same battles as Charles.  But he had an army, and
Parliament lost that one.  It was reduced, and eventually suspended for the
duration of his rule.

Someone else will have to fill in on the reasoning behind the Restoration
of Charles II.  Suffice it to say that the battles with Parliament went on
and on....

--
||Halloween Candy: the office snack    |
||from Nov. 1st onwards............... |Puff the Magic Dragon
||-------------------------------------|Lived by the sea
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Who knows what's in the autumn mists
||Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY      |In the mind of Yadallee?
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:52:35 GMT
	<1992Nov5.130526.29965@gssec.bt.co.uk>
	<1992Nov6.100915.2585@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Nov6.100915.2585@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

   I could say exactly the same about Cockney.

And lots of Welsh people could say exactly the same about Welsh.  So?  What's
your point?
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

		
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15749 alt.folklore.urban:28300 misc.legal:19844
From: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban,misc.legal
Subject: Re: The amazing disappearing British Constitution
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:51:21 GMT
Reply-To: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation

In article <1dpgohINN633@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon 
Livesey) quoted:
> In article <1992Nov10.144958.11600@maths.nott.ac.uk>, anw@maths.nott.ac.uk 
> writes:
> > 						An example of such
> > a meta-law is the one banning hybrid Bills (of which, according to Urban
> > Legend, the most famous was one in which some obscure new measure to do
> > with sewage disposal had tacked on to it by some disgruntled clerk that
> > "J Arthur Boggis of 123 Acacia Avenue, Sometown was hereby divorced from
> > his wife Mildred").  Accusations of hybridicity have occasionally been
> > made, and invariably result in much behind-the-scenes scurrying by party
> > functionaries attempting to patch things up.

If we're talking US (hard to tell from context) I highly doubt this.  The US 
COnstitution has a prohibition gainst Bills of Attainder, of which this is 
probably an example.

Terry Carroll - tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com - 408/992-2152
The opinions presented above are not necessarily those of a sound mind.
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:40:11 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com


In article <1992Nov9.103702.14176@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk writes:
> 
> Yes, it's obviously used to depict people actually living in
> London. Eastenders or crime dramas would seem a little strange
> if all the characters spoke in upper middle class accents. But
> you would not expect to hear a newsreader (even reading London
> local news), commentator, documentary presenter etc, speaking
> anything remotely resembling Cockney.

I'd be careful with that "remotely".   There's certainly one
chap on BBC shortwave who uses the Londoner's 'th' -> 'f'.
He tells us what he 'finks'.

Now, that isn't Cockney, exactly, but it's not RP either.

jon.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
From: sp@osf.org (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: Anglican vs C of E
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:56:11 GMT

In article <A.Grant.26.721487754@ucs.cam.ac.uk>, A.Grant@ucs.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
> In article <1992Nov11.095728.14409@osf.org> sp@osf.org (Simon Patience) writes:
> >That might be a good argument if there was a scrap of evidence that it
> >were true.
> 
> Well, it wasn't _my_ argument - mine would be that it is nice to have people
> in parliament who have other things on their minds than the non-executive 
> directorships they will get when they leave. I can't imagine Lord Runcie 
> advising tobacco companies on how to break into East European markets, as 
> Lady Thatcher is now doing.

While it might be 'nice' to do this, I certainly don't approve of letting
Runcie in just because he wears a purple skirt. Find some other way of
having a second chamber with non-career politicians. Endorsing any
religion with power over the legislature is offensive in my book. If they
want to influence the laws of the land then they shouldn't be given a leg
up at the expense of others but should do what everyone else has to do,
lobby.

Actually, Although I don't like Maggies current business, I don't much 
approve of what Runcie is doing either.

Simon.

-- 
  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban,misc.legal
From: nolan@lurch.twg.com (Nolan Hinshaw)
Subject: Re: Britain doesn't have a Constitution (Re: An astonishing Guy)
Reply-To: nolan@twg.com
Organization: Somewhere West of Nowhere
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:18:40 GMT


In article <82Bd02nJ2a7101@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll) writes:
[legal stuff miraculously disappeared]
|>In the interest of higher quality answers, I'm adding misc.legal to the 
|>newsgroups line (but why is a.f.u there?).
		   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Because Pinkie posted the original article there. He's engaged in flushing out
lurkers.

ObUL: Trelford Pinkerton is really a closet Brit
--
Nolan "Man enough to do woman's work" Hinshaw
Internet: nolan@twg.com			Dingalingnet: (415)962-7197	
"Never fight with your wife. Just dicker" Harry Maulsby

Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15383 alt.folklore.urban:27723
From: th2_oate@csd.uwe.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:03:15 GMT
Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol

'Guido' was a nickname that Mr Fawkes picked up during his time as a mercenary
in the 'Low Countries' (ie. Netherlands/Belgium). In fact he was English,
born in the city of York. Whilst he was the 'trigger-man' for a Catholic plot,
in fact Mr Fawkes was originally a protestant who had only recently converted 
to the RC faith.


-- 
****************************************************************************** 
* Tom Oates (Univ. of West of England) * DISCLAIMER:I speak only for myself. * 
* Email to: th2_oate@uk.ac.uwe.csd     * PGP 2.0 Key available upon request. *
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:33:29 GMT

From article <23848.9211121140@thor.cf.ac.uk>, by spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr S J Morris 92):
> In this longish discussion about "Scots is a separate language" vs.
> "Scots is not a separate language", I don't yet recall seeing an example
> of Scots which would let us come to some informed conclusion on the
> topic. Could somebody who speaks Scots please translate a bit of prose
> (this article, for example) into Scots, so we can see what it looks
> like. If it's incomprehensible to a non-Scots speaker, then Scots is a
> language - otherwise, it's not.
> 
> Steve Morris,
> Department of Physics, University of Wales College of Cardiff.

Scots or Lallan (or the Doric) is probable only spoken to any great
extent to-day in the Grampian region. Unfortunately, I would say that no
one to-day speaks "pure" lallans, but, rather regular english with
lallans words substituted for english words. However, when I was small
(up to about the 70's) when there were still many people of my
grandparents generation about lallan, I feel, was still spoken in its
"original" form (i.e people spoke as Burns wrote) to such an extent that
I often did not understand what they were saying. Example of what you
will come across to-day is as follows

where - far
when - fan
who - fa
what - fit
then - syne

know - ken
girl - quine
boy - loon
trousers - briks(sp?)
spoiled - bladit
silly - glaakit
mud - dubs
put up with - thole
village - clachan
youths - callans
turnips - neeps
cattle - kye
dormitory for farm workers - chammers
a room for a farm worker - bothy
geens - wild cherries
unusual - droll
fright - fleg
flat plain - hough
thigh - hough

etc.

															GW
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Britain doesn't have a Constitution (Re: An astonishing Guy)
Date: 11 Nov 92 10:51:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
>I'd also say that one virtue of the British system is that when
>we need dictatorship, for example that all-party goverment of
>the Second World War, we just go ahead and do it, up front,
>without pretence.   I hope that we all also recognize the dangers
>of doing so, and don't hide behind the figleaf of some supposed
>system.

A vice is that we still get a dictatorship when we don't need
it, and we do hide behind a figleaf. A party in Britain can get
a majority in the Commons on less than 40% of the vote. It is
usual for MPs to vote as the party leaders tell them, all the
House of Lords can do is delay a bill by a year, and the Head
of State hasn't vetoed one since 1707. There's no Supreme
Court to strike down bills that go against human rights. The only
safeguard is the possibility of a backbench revolt in the government
party, and this is put down by the usual methods (governments don't
give jobs to MPs who don't toe the line - there's been rumours
of nastier threats used too, such as sexual blackmail). So
most British governments are in effect elected dictatorships.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
From: streater@unixjr.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: Re: JANET/Internet
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:04:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.005305.26549@infodev.cam.ac.uk> ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>
>Since both protocols are simply patched-up Heath-Robinson attempts to get
>something that more-or-less works for people who can't wait for OSI, and
>can't afford SNA or DECNET, I don't see what the fuss is about. Both TCP/IP
>and Coloured Books are fatally flawed, but at least CB has the integrity to
>describe itself as an 'interim' protocol suite, despite working a darn sight
>better than TCP/IP, IMHO.

This is all interesting and true, but, sadly, irrelavent. TCP/IP growth exceeds
100% per annum, at present, mostly in Europe and the Pacific rim. Most of these
people want connectivity now and are not prepared to wait. The only thing
which will impede IP in its growth is running out of its 32-bit address space,
which is predicted to happen in only a few years. We don't even hear much about
DECNET Phase V these days, which at this site we have been waiting for with
bated breath for some years now.  "Never mind the quality, feel the width!"
applies in this field as in so many others, as any DOS/Windows bigot will say
when confronting a MacHead (such as myself).

$5800/ton.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15699 alt.folklore.urban:28214
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Anglican vs C of E
Date: 12 Nov 1992 00:34:31 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com


In article <1992Nov10.182308.10035@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
> In article <1dkml4INN582@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> > 
> >> This is in
> >> the context of the Monarch being the Supreme Head of Britain's 
> >> official state religion.
> > 
> > There is not, so far as I know, any "official state
> > religion".
> Not unless you call a religioNot unless you call areligion" if the head of
> state is the head of the religion, if the law of the religion is the law of the
> land, if the officials of the religion are appointed by the head of government,
> if the installation of a new head of state is performed by an official of the
> religion. 

And how many legs does a donkey have, if you call the tail
a leg?

jon.
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The dog in the House of Commons
Date: 5 Nov 92 12:52:26 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <Bx8K6E.Lws@sci.kun.nl> caspar@sci.kun.nl (Caspar Terheggen) writes:

   Watching the debates about the Maastricht treaty, I saw a dog
   lying on the floor on "Labour's side" of the House of Commons
   (sp?).  This was quite a surprise, because I don't think they
   would allow a dog in the "tweede kamer" of the Dutch Parliament.
   I had noticed it before, but it's not always there.  Whose dog
   is it?

Sorry can't remember the name of the dog or its owner, but it's a guide dog
for a blind MP.  (A guide dog is trained to act as its owner's eyes to a
certain extent, helping them to cross roads, avoid obstacles, etc.)
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

		
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15407 alt.folklore.urban:27763
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Date: 9 Nov 92 03:28:30 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com


In article <1992Nov9.011417.26343@ulysses.att.com>, smb@ulysses.att.com writes:
> In article <1dejk6INN7jo@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> >     [That's the same habeas corpus mentioned in the US
> >     Constitution, the one suspended by Lincoln and again in
> >     1941, so it ain't entirely clear how full this cup of
> >     liberty has been.  njl]"
> 
> Actually, here's all the Constitution says about habeas corpus
> (Article I, Section 9):
> 
> 	The privilege of the writ of \fIhabeas corpus\fP shall not be
> 	suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the
> 	public safety may require it.
> 
> Lincoln, at least, was quite justified legally -- there was a rebellion
> coupled with invasions on non-rebellious territory.

Oh, it was a rebellion, was it?   I've heard people describe
it as an attempt as secession.       Would you care to list
a couple of recetn recessions and tell us whether they were
rebellions or not?

jon.
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The dog in the House of Commons
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:11:52 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Nov5.110011.13742@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> dc@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Douglas Chester) writes:
>It belongs to David Blunkett, Labour's shadow health spokesman, who is
>blind (ergo it is a GUIDE dog).
>
>It is probably the best behaved creature in the Commons!


It's called "Offa"

M


--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Private Uni's
Date: 6 Nov 1992 20:21:18 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com


In article <27812@castle.ed.ac.uk>, matt@castle.ed.ac.uk writes:
> Err excuse me but bollox...
> 

Well, quasi-bollox.

> Oxford and Cambridge are NOT the *only* ones founded centuries ago.
> 
> Durham, Bath, Bristol to name but 3 English ones. As for other British
> then how about St Andrews, Glasgow and Edinburgh?

I don't know about the rest, but I think Durham is a Henry VIII
foundation.   Trouble is, it was founded as a theological college
and then re-founded in the nineteenth century as a regular
University.

Hey, that almost is centuries ago, isn't it.

jon.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15412 soc.culture.celtic:7238
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Goldsmith's Coll, students
Date: 9 Nov 92 09:52:34 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry)
In article <1992Nov6.154713.6676@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>>Many London place names have two meanings due to the way the
>>London boroughs were formed in 1964. In many cases a borough
>>was named after one of the places in it. Thus "Lewisham" can
>>mean both the area immediately around Lewisham High Street, and
>>the whole of the London Borough of Lewisham, which encompasses
>>Lewisham, New Cross, Deptford, Lee, Ladywell etc.
>
>Most Londoners I know wouldn't use "Lewisham" alone to mean
>the Borough.  When I lived in Plumstead I certainly wouldn't
>have said I lived in Greenwich.

Yes, but the person who posted the original query was not a
Londoner, and probably just read in a prospectus or something
that Goldsmith's College was in the London Borough of Lewisham,
and was therefore unaware that he was making a mistake in
asking about life in Lewisham as opposed to life in New Cross.

Matthew Huntbach
Xref: sparky soc.culture.british:15222 alt.folklore.urban:27529
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: An astonishing Guy
Date: 6 Nov 92 07:46:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: rdg.1992Nov6.085402.11862
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England


In article <PLUMMER.92Nov4225351@nutmeg.cs.swarthmore.edu>, plummer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David Barker-Plummer) writes...
>>>>>> On 4 Nov 1992 20:47:52 GMT, linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM
>TP> (Trelford Pinkerton) said: 
> 
>TP> Well, it's early November again, time for a holiday celebrated in
>TP> Britain, the way Halloween is celebrated in the USA.  November 5th
>TP> is known as "Guy Fawkes Night", and all over Britain people fire
>TP> off fireworks, light bonfires, and burn effigies of Guy Fawkes.
> 
>TP> Guy Fawkes was an Englishman who (in popular legend) tried to blow
>TP> up the Houses of Parliament with barrels of gunpowder.  He was
>TP> caught, tortured, imprisoned, and finally executed.
> 
Usually a treatment given out to Scots in those days.

It's a bit funny to think that the English and others are now 
celebrating Guy Fawkes day which was the day a Scot (James VII and II )
_didn't_ get blown up. Maybe they liked us after all? :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk (Colin Wilson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:08:12 GMT
Organization: BT

In article <1992Nov9.215407.3766@infodev.cam.ac.uk>, gdb15@grebe.cl.cam.ac.uk (Guy Barry) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov9.174526.17794@gssec.bt.co.uk> cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk (Colin Wilson) writes:
|> >
|> >When I lived in London, some years ago, I can remember serious matters being
|> >discussed on the TV, in a Cockney accent, by Janet Street-Porter, Danny Baker
|> >and so on.
|> 
|> Yes, and no one took them seriously.
|> 

As I recall, that isn't totally true: but to the extent that it is true, I
can well understand why some people would find it galling. In the context
of a debate on the status of Scots, though, it's really neither here nor
there.

********************************************************************************
*  Colin Wilson,                           E-mail:  cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk     *
*  Glasgow Engineering Centre,             POTS:    (041) 220 5340             *
*  British Telecommunications plc.                  (+ 44 41) 220 5340         *
*  7 Caledon Street,                                                           *
*  Glesca / Glaschu G12 9BY,             Scotland a Twa-Leidit Fowkrick        *
*  Scotland / Alba.                      Biodh Alba 'na Poblachd Dha-Chananach *  ********************************************************************************
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