HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: timpson@acetek.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: alt.athiesm
Reply-To: timpson@acetek.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:27:11 GMT




Being somewhat new to alt.atheism I have made sme observations:

1.  The same old arguments seem to keep coming up nothing is ever solved.
	a. athiest bashing religion
	b. religionist bashing athiesm

2.  There are a tremendous number of insults being thrown
    around causing:
	a. hurt feelings
	b. anger
	c. arigance (sp)

3.  This news group is moot. why?
	a. atheists aren't going to listen to religionists.
	b. religionists are not going to listen athiests.
	c. it serves no purpose.


now for the only reason I am writing this note: (see the following quote)

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        

This quote will appear at the base of all my postings.  It pretty well
expresses my view/belief.  

see there it is |    8^)
		V

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: The face o' god
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:34:25 GMT

In article <l7e62fINN3ir@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
}
}      Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
}       Nice going, particularly as no-one knows what Jesus looked like.
}
}(mathew) writes:
}
} He was blond, with blue eyes and pale white skin.  Must be true, I've seen
} pictures.
}
}
}Actually, Malcom X in his autobiography made (what I thought was) a
}strong case for the claim that Jesus was black, since all the original
}hebrews from his tribe were black. . .

Let's check the biblical descriptions:

...........................................................................
white hair
DAN 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down,  and  the  An-
cient  of  days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the
hair of his head like the pure wool:  his  throne  was  like  the
fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

PSA 17:4  Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips  I
have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.

PSA 11:4  The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in
heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

PSA 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out
of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

ISA 30:27  Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far,  burning
with  his  anger,  and  the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are
full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

ISA 1:20  But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be  devoured  with
the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

PSA 8:3  When I consider thy heavens, the work  of  thy  fingers,
the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

PSA 18:10  And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly:  yea,  he  did
fly upon the wings of the wind.
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Sowing the seeds on Xian BBSs
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:53:22 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism.moderated
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1992Jul28.163920.13575@news.media.mit.edu> mailrus!gatech!mit-eddie!media.mit.edu!minsky@uunet.uu.net (Marvin Minsky) writes:

>Most XIANS do not consider doing such things to be sociable, at least
>in this particular era, and I have not met any who refuse to denounce
>such behavior.  However, I have not observed any Muslimss on the net
>to firmly denounce the murder of unbelievers.  Did I miss some of these?

Of course you have. Killing _anyone_ is against the tenets of Islam
unless that person has killed someone else (death penalty) or is
forcibly preventing a community of muslims from practicing their
religion (praying, meeting at Friday prayers).


Gregg



-- 
Gregg Jaeger    (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu)     | Tristero?   ______/|/|  Treestero?
Dept(s). of Physics (and Philosophy)      ------------    (_) \|\|  Trystero?
Boston University, 590 Commonwealth Ave.,Boston MA 02215 --------------------- 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: Jesus Jokes
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:15:03 GMT

m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:

Jesus goes into a hotel and puts a few nails on the counter.

"Could you put me up for the night?"

                               **********

Or Jesus is on the cross and calls to Peter:

"Peter, Peter, I have to tell you something".

Peter tries to run to his master, and only succeeds in having a Roman
legionary cut his arm off.

"Peter, Peter, I must tell you something".

Peter tries again to run to the cross and is forced back, minus yet another
appendage of the walking variety.

"Peter, Peter, do not forsake me".

With a final burst of non-stop crawling, Peter gets to the cross.

"Peter, come closer..."

"Yes, my Lord"

"Peter..."

"Yes...?"

"Peter ... I can see my house from here!"

     or that last line could be alternatively:

"Keep me an Easter egg; I'll be back on Sunday!"

                               **********

Or Jesus is on the cross and calls to Judas:

"Judas, come to me"

Judas, weeping, approaches the cross.

"Judas, stand on that orange box."

Judas puts the box in front of the cross and stands on it, level with Jesus.

"Judas, I can barely speak. Put your head closer to mine."

Judas leans it.

*Whump* Jesus loafs him.

"If you _ever_ rat on me again, I'll kill you!"
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive P a u l  M o l o n e y "Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the  rem
james Trinity College,Dublin PMOLONEY%MATHS.TCD.IE@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU mind." vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: contradictions ( was Re: Alt.Atheism Frequently Asked Questions
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 92 10:24:00 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) writes:
> Free will is best defined (IMO) by what it is not.  Free will is the
> opposite of will that is forced, coerced, or compelled.  For instance,
> if I tell my son that he'd better clean his room, OR ELSE _______
> (fill in the blank), he does not have free will w.r.t. cleaning his
> room.

So I do not have free will.  For example, I don't have free will with respect
to breathing underwater.  God chose to deny me that choice.

So... the next question is, why is the freedom to misrepresent God's word so
important when millions of other freedoms aren't?


mathew
-- 
Down, boy!  There's a good dogma.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: God violates physical laws?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 12:03:13 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

ss@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Scott Stuart) writes:
> In article <1RNuNB13w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> >The fact that God is omniscient DOES NOT preclude my having free will.  God
> >is like the psychic in Australia; so long as he doesn't tell *me* what I am
> >going to do, my choice is free.
> 
> No, an omniscient god does not preclude free will. However, if you assume tha
> god created you, and everything about you, having perfect knowledge of 
> everything that you will ever do, and having the unbounded power to make 
> alterations to your mind/soul/whatever in order to affect your future
> actions, then free will is precluded.

Only if he *uses* that power.

>                                          If Tony had filled the fridge with
> Irn Bru before writing in his envelope, or used a new device of his invention
> which allows him to rearrange the atoms in your brain to make you choose Irn
> Bru then he has removed your free will to choose between Irn Bru and Lilt.

Right.  But the mere existence of a Tony able to do those things does not
preclude free will.

Similarly, I think God could preclude free will if he wanted to (if he
existed), but his existence would not itself be enough to preclude my having
free will.


mathew
-- 
Ceci | n'est pas une pipe.
From: che755v@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:14:01 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <6489@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk>,
 martin@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Martin Gorman) writes:
>
>>In article <graham.711939190@galois>
>> graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews) writes:
>>
>>     "I went to the park with the dog"
>>
>>Now there are two possible interpretations of this sentence.
>
>  Four, Infidel!
>
> Don't forget "dog" = "dog and bone" = "'phone".

Ah yes, but what about the CORRECT meaning of "park"??  I have this theory
that "park" is actually a code word for the Dead Sea and that this
sentence is a reference to an obscure initiation custom practiced by
the Essene community at Qumran!!!

Peter D. Thomas
Centre for High Resolution Spectroscopy and Opto-Electronic Technology
Monash University, Clayton, Victoria, Australia.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Jesus Jokes
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:09:05 GMT

Situation: Jesus at a disco

"I've risen, and I can't get down!"



Newsgroups: alt.atheism,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.arabic
From: bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi)
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:02:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.160237.5820@fmg.bt.co.uk> ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani) writes:

>How do _you_ know?  And why these millions of sexually assaulted women are not
>applying en masse for immigration to Iran (or other "Islamic" countries) in
>order to live in "safe" environments over there, I wonder.

What in the world is the relevance of the fact that American women aren't 
applying for  immigration to Iran?  Do people immigrate to other countries only
because they are raped?  Couldn't immigration have economic, political, or 
dozens of other reasons?  More importantly, why would an American woman have 
to immigrate to another country to avoid being raped; couldn't she stay in
her home country and take other measures to minimize the chances of being
sexually assaulted?  (e.g. hiring a body guard or being extra careful in
her life style so far as leaving her home and her relationships with other
people are concerned).

>-hossein

Behnam Sadeghi

P.S.  Note on the statistics:  The figure of 1/3 of women being 
sexually assaulted is an estimate by the FBI.  Recently, a 
comprehensive survey published in the LA Times indicated that
this is probably an under-estimate.  As for 1/4 of girls being
sexually molested, this figure has been arrived at independently
by different studies.

For the 1/4 of girls who are sexually abused, neither immigration
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: A Contradiction in Terms? [was: Reasons for enlightenment]
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 02:07:43 GMT

<mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>The problem with God is that he's given me the wrong freedoms.
>He's happy to curtail the freedoms I would really like to have.  For 
>example, I'd like to have the free will to be able to choose to breathe 
>underwater. I'd like to have the freedom to fly without the aid of 
>machinery. 

Yes I would love this too. I was at some cliffs the other day and was
thinking to myself how I would love to be able to fly so that I could
just dive off these cliffs and have fun.

Why did God deprive us of this ability?

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 00:01:47 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Women atheists, having a problem finding a non believer?  I am about 
to launch a free electronic matching service on Usenet.  
Unfortunately, more guys than gals have expressed an interest so far.  
If you would like to see the fourth draft of my questionnaire so we 
can alter it to also fit women's needs as well as men's, either send 
me mail or look at the copy I posted in alt.personals.  
 
This service is serious and I already have 139 men and 98 women signed 
up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected and 
programmers are being lined up for the construction of the 
listserver.  
 
                                                            Eric Klien
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: Sneezing
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:23:00 GMT

Graham:
>A bird has higher complexity than an airplane?

(Ridha Souissi) writes:
>No doubt about it.  Wanna bet? even an insect is much more complex
>than a jumbo jet.  Man is able to construct an airplane, bute
>he cannot create a bird. He would fail miserably to do so.

You are mis-representing things here Ridha.
When man "studies a bird" to learn how to fly he does not study the 
whole bird - he only studies its mechanism of flight. So while the
bird may indeed be fantastically complex, to say that "studying a
bird to learn how to fly is to appeal to higher complexity" is a 
bad mis-representation of what happens.

Try again.

graham

--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi)
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:37:09 GMT

In article <10049@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Bob Beauchaine) writes:

>>>Ok then tell me, say we have two interpretations, I1 and I2, of the
>>>"more correct" than the other?
>>
>>I answered this before.  You take the interpretation that best satisfies
>>the definition of Islam.  You will say but other people will disagree
>>with you on the choice on interpretation.  Fine, I have no problem with
>>that.
>>
>
>  Are you being obtuse on purpose?????  How can you have two
>  (assumed conflicting on at least one point) interpretations that
>  both satisfy the definition of Islam?  One of them is wrong.
>  Period.  How do you tell the difference?  You can't.  Re-read the
>  last two sentences.  You're just not getting the point!

Who in the world said or implied that you can have two conflicting
interpretations that both satisfy the definition of Islam?  

I wrote: "You will say: but other people will disagree with you on the
choice of interpretation.  Fine, I have no problem with that."

In other words, I'd have no problem if somebody said that other people
would have interpretations different from mine.  To concede this point
is not to imply that the other interpretations are actually correct.

Please read what people write before insulting them.  And please don't
read any more into a writing than is actually there.

>Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

Behnam Sadeghi

Xref: sparky alt.atheism:14212 sci.skeptic:13114
From: lhp@daimi.aau.dk (Lasse Hiller|e Petersen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Nietzche (sp?)
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:49:47 GMT
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark

srl@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu (Steve Levengood) writes:
>	Can anyone tell me the book by Fredrick Nietzche where he
>proclaims "God is dead?"  Also how to spell his name.,

Friedrich Nietzsche. Also sprach Zarathustra (Thus spoke Zarathustra).
IMHO, he was a poetical genius comparable to William Blake.
Of course, this is only appreciated when read in German. ;-)
--
Lasse Hiller|e Petersen - lhp@daimi.aau.dk ! "Lust -- tiefer noch als
Dept. of Inf.&Media Sc., Aarhus University ! Herzeleid" --Nietzsche
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: dabrowsk@parc.xerox.com (Jarek Dabrowski)
Subject: Re: Atheism and spiritual feelings (was Re: Atheism and culture)
Organization: Xerox PARC
Date: 26 Jul 92 06:02:41 GMT

In <graham.711861571@galois> Graham Matthews repeats:

-Graham:
>There is no way that you practice agnostic theism Jarek.
>
Let's not begin it from the scratch. You didn't reply to my last post on
agnostic theism. If you want to go on saying that this position is not
possible, please dig out your notebook, make a summary of argumentation
and add your new comment. If you don't have it, I can find the files for
you, but it may take a while because I am quite busy by now.


Best wishes,
             Jarek
------------------------------------------------------
 .-----.      Jarek_Dabrowski@Parc.xerox.com         
 `-> <-'    Jarek(u)Dabrowski@Parc.xerox.com         
I WANT DAN BREDY BACK TO THE NET
From: karlth@rhi.hi.is (Karl Thoroddsen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Ivan Panin
Summary: Prove of the divinity of the bible.
Keywords: Prove, Bible
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:27:12 GMT


I was reading through some pamphlets a few days ago and came across a 
piece of paper by Ivan Panin.  The paper tried to prove the Bible's 100%
correctness by maintaining that no mortal could have written it. 
According to Panin every chapter of the greek version of the bible contains
a 7*x large vocabulary, 7*x letters in the vocabulary, etc.  Panin then 
states that it would have taken mortal men 1000s of years to create a
book so crammed with "7 features" and thus it was god's work.

Any info?



--

\Internet:     karlth@rhi.hi.is         \ Karl Thoroddsen University Of Iceland
  \  UUCP:     ..!mcvax!hafro!rhi!karlth  \      Department Of Computer Science
From: jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Existence of a god.
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:10:41 GMT
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd) writes:
: In article <exukjb.17.712264926@exu.ericsson.se> exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
: 
: >I would like to suggest that there is an argument, one very interesting 
: >argument in particular, which might be called the The Argument From the 
: >World's Intelligibility, that may be able to prove God's existence to any 
: 
: Is this the same as the Argument From Design?  Coz I don't accept that 
: card in my store.  My response is: if it wasn't like this I wouldn't 
: be here to worry about it; so it MUST be like this if there is NO god, and 
: it probably wouldn't be like this is there was one.

False dilemma alert!  You aren't considering the probability of a
malicious god. ;)  This also is a perfect response to anyone making
theistic claims via Occam's Razor since a malicious god explains the
state of the world better than a loving and just one.
-- 
Jeff Young

Opinions expressed are mine alone.
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Mr Mensa
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:00:09 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Originator: netnews@uts.mcc.ac.uk

You know of course that Mensa officially holds no opinions on anything, its 
just a way for people with a high score on one of a set of entirely spurious 
tests to meet one another.  I feel your use of the word may infringe this '
we have no views' position, and I ask you to find another nickname for 
yourself.

Yours sincerely, British Mensa member 0014356

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  I don't take part in any sport that requires me to change clothes  |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: locklin@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Scott Locklin)
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:57:00 GMT


Gee I love your argument that we can't understand islam because
we don't speak arabic;what a great demonstration of the ethno-centrism
and jingoism that makes islam so repulsive to so many. 

re:feminists/islam; your definitions of what constitues mistreatment of
women (by YOUR I mean that of the quran & islam) are certainly much
different than that of the rest of the world. Is it mistreatment of women to
allow them to clother themselves as they please, hold jobs,DRIVE CARS (that
means you saudi-arabia...) e Perhaps in the days of the origins of islam
women were indeed considered as equals, this is certainly not the case
in modern day islamic cultures as their lawn and customs give evidence..


While the islam of countries like america,canada and europe may indeed 
espouse the high ideals that Sandra speaks of (probobly because of the 
laws in these countries...), Fundamentalist islamic countries such as
Saudi-Arabia and Iran are far from these ideals (in practice anyway)