From: buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick)
Subject: Chiropractic and Flame Bait (long)
Summary: Check sources before Blasting Hot Air
Keywords: Chiropractors,Prejudice,Flame
Organization: Belay Enterprises Inc. Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 05:04:09 GMT

In article <10688@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:
>Gee, what does this have to do with any of the listed newsgroups?  Note
>followup line.

Well, since it has been a thread, and you *are* following up.. I guess hmm..
you aren't in a postion to complain.. unless.... oh gad.. you are another
problem child.

>In article <BuDKHE.4rn@belay> buick@belay (Patrick D. Buick) writes:
>>For the training they receive, I'd place a chiropractor up there with
>>physiotherapists, recreation therapists, massage therapists etc.  These
>>are generally considered by the medical community to be "specialists"
>>to whom referrals are regularly given.  Compare the training.
>
>And, guess what!  Sometimes, physicians DO refer patients to chiropractors,
>but only when they are sure that the chiropractor is just going to do 
>manipulation and not claim to do anything more.

Yes, but the original comment to which I replied is conveniently removed.
Taken out of context and used to paint a person in a bad light hmm.. could 
this be... are you perhaps a journalist or just looking for a flame war.
The original comment suggested that physicians should *never* refer to
a chiropractor, just to "specialists".  Aren't they specialized?  Aren't
they a health-care-professional?  Did you *read* the whole post to which
you reply, or just the "juicy parts"?

>The problem is that chiropractors frequently (i.e., a lot of them do this)
>get the idea that they have the Power to go beyond merely limbering up your
>joints and diagnose and cure everthing from cancer to asthma with everything
>from coffee up your ass to balloons up your snout.

This may happen in the US.. I don't claim to know what the practices are
down there, but it doesn't happen much up here, I know many chiro's and 
they certainly don't practice quackery like this...  ahh the wonders of
a free-market eh?  Caveat Emptor.  Perhaps there is more regulation here,
I'm not sure.  

>There's also this mythical
>malady of spinal misalignment (or subluxations or whatever) which is purely 
>invented.  Your back is SUPPOSED to slosh around a bit.  That's why you don't
>snap in two every time you bend down to tie your shoes, get it?  

Yes, I get it... and if you check my .sig, you'll see I have *some* medical
training myself.  I also have not mentioned pre-med... perhaps you would
like to mention some of your not-so-obvious training on which you base these
wonderfully INFLAMMATORY statements.  Don't be so pompous or obvious when
trolling flame bait.  

As for the spine, yes there is a *limited* amount of
normal motion in between the vertebrae, however there is also misalignments
as in *any other joint*.  A misalignment of a joint shouldn't be ignored
or should we just tell Mr. Smith that the dislocated shoulder can stay that 
way, it really isn't impeding function?  Do you think that with the vertebral 
facets misaligned and possibly the disk pinched that the function and 
ROM of the vertebral joint is normal!!??  Do you think it will suffice?
Will it return itself to position?  How about a dislocated shoulder?
(It's mostly cartilage, ligaments and tendon.. not an actual bone on bone
 joint... if any, it should be able to realign spontaneously)

Off the subject.. proper form is to bend at the knees for lifting *AND*
things like tying the shoes, not bending like a willow.. the gravitational
pull on the body puts excessive strain on the Lumbar region of the spine.
Not such recent medical knowledge...  just FYI.  Wouldn't want to see you
responsible for recommending poor body mechanics and posture.

>And if 
>your trapezius or your latissimus dorsi get overworked or pulled, OF COURSE 
>your spine is not going to be ramrod straight for a few days, and it shouldn't
>take an extraordnary amount of cogitation to figure out why.

Oh.. now the big words come out.. (oops.. trapped by the flame bait...
how many dictionaries did *this* take..) :-)

As I understand, or at least the the chiropractors that I have
dealt with don't manipulate for a period after injury for this
specific reason.  You have to let the musculature equilibrate
before any of this does any good.  However, just because the
muscles find an equilibrated position does not mean that all
is well vis a vis someone with a dislocated ankle.  The resting
position becomes more comfortable than right after injury, but
it isn't fully comfortable (if ever possible) and certainly most
would agree that it should be repositioned.

I have heard that their association has been trying to get rid of the
quacks and clean up the profession.  (yes, it meets the technical
requirements of a profession: Training, Certification, Self-Governing
body)

>If chiropractors only claimed to be able to do what manipulation can 
>really do, they'd be called physical therapists, and nobody would mind.

Credentials, please?  Granted, physical therapists are doing wonders,
but again, there is a reason for specialization.. should the therapists
be responsible for it all?  In addition to this, if doctors only claimed
to be able to do what current medical training or more accurately current
medical practice consists of they would not be able to call themselves
doctors by the Oxford definition.  It includes *preventative* actions
toward diseases and disorders of the body.  How many do you know that
practice proactive *preventative* medicine?  Not that I think we should
burn all doctors at the stake.. they do serve a useful purpose.

>If chiropractors took the time to get sufficient medical training to justify
>their diagnoses, they'd be called osteopaths, and nobody would mind.
>However, what chiropractors typically do is take a knowledge of anatomy less
>than an average registered nurse, call themselves Doctor, advertise themselves
>on the teevee as primary care practicioners, and try to get people to come in
>for regular spinal examinations at twenty-five bucks a pop.  

Research and Credentials please?  Do you also have bigotry and prejudice
against racial groups or just chiropractors and other health-care
personnel... perhaps EMT's.. I don't think you are even vaguely aware of 
the training involved.

You'd better check out the programmes before you get in trouble.... 
If'n I remember correctly:
They need 1-2 years at a normal, regular university in biology, chem,
physics etc. then 2 years at a chiropractic college.  I have seen some
of the course content sheets.  They bloody well do take a lot more A&P than
most nursing faculties I have looked at, and I *HAVE* looked.  What the
_bleep_ have you done besides create yourself a bloody big attitude.

>Some people do mind this.
>
>-EMP

(* These comments apply locally.. they may not extrapolate elsewhere *)
More comments on this.. there are other people who call themselves 
Doctors.... take for instance Dental Surgeons..  and.. hmm.. interesting
point.. what category do dentists fit in?  The system *demands* that
anyone performing procedures deemed "practice of medicine" must be a
doctor or under the supervision of a doctor.  All nursing staff, technical
staff, therapy staff etc. are bound to act only on a doctor's orders. We
have relaxed the definition of "supervision" somewhat to allow the current
system.  Even Paramedics are on standing orders provided by medical control
(read doctor) such that he/she (medical control) is responsible for the
actions of the field personnel. (supervision).. etc.  It is *ILLEGAL* for
anyone else to "practice medicine."  One of the definitions is invasive
procedures, not just subcutaneously, but including intubation etc.

Talk about your basic monopoly etc... but it forces others to declare
themselves "Doctors" (and I might add get legal approval to do so...
you elected the Gov't... if they don't represent you... too bad.. again
Caveat Emptor..) to get the almighty approval.

In closing... it wasn't all that long ago that doctors *were* practicing
questionable procedures like trephining to "let the demons go".  (Only
a couple of hundred years... if that)  We see this as quackery today....
Are there other things that went the other way?  Sure.. nobody thought
there would be a use for a telephone.. etc..

Hmm.. perhaps we are being a bit ethnocentric along with a good measure
of egocentricity thrown in.  Calm down and grab a bit more mature grasp
of yourself.. please.


'Nuff... I have been sucked in by the flame bait enough for one night...
 I need to do some deep breathing exercises.. (Oh.. no.. I shouldn't do
 that, it wasn't prescribed by a doctor...)

PPS: In case you think I'm totally against doctors.. note the paragraph
 with the pre-med in it...  I'm not.. but I'm also not going to hold them
 up as gods or perfect examples.  I have met poor examples and good examples
 in all kinds of professions and medicine is no exception.  Unfortunately
 with our current system, the focus is strongly taken away from the patient
 in lieu of monetary and legal requirements throughout the system and this
 has led to a perceived decline in "health care" per se.

 Just my $0.02... reduced to $0.0186 purchasing power by the GST.

 Patrick
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