From: bell@cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.miniatures
Keywords: miniatures figures ancients napoleonics renaissance naval
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:31:06 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
NNTP-Posting-Host: beethoven.cs.unc.edu

In article <C1GqI4.J1A@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> charbonn@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary charbonneau) writes:
>In article <1k379mINNkv5@beethoven.cs.unc.edu> bell@cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
>>Campaign rules, morale, (much) equipment, hidden movement, "fog
>>of war," tactics, and much more are common to both [fantasy and historical
>>[miniatures wargaming.]

>But only to the extent that the fantasy people are trying to make their
>games more like reality and less like a fantasy.

Don't be stupid.  Do both types of gamers have an interest in the above
or not?  If yes, then that's commonality, despite your condescending
attitude (and thus mine.)  What will Napoleonics enthusiasts discuss
with Moderns fans that wouldn't be of interest to fantasy wargamers?

>>[...] while fantasy miniatures includes discussion of magic and
>>magical effects.

>Discussions which always strike me as rather strange.  You can argue
>about whether a particular form of magic destroys the play balance
>in a game.  How can you argue about whether it is realistic?

I said nothing about realism.  Such questions would be generally rules
system specific, with "how large an area of effect does a fireball
have" or "Can you use spell X to do Y?"  Since miniatures wargaming
usually requires a significant outlay of resources, the devotees to
both historical and fantasy wargaming will probably be fairly small
in number and enthusiastic -- thus subject line abbreviations will
probably be the norm.  If rec.games.frp.misc is any indication, I've
found the subject line stuff works quite well.  I'll suggest a few
to start:

WH:	Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy Battle System
HL:	Steve Jackson Games' upcoming(?) "HotLead!" miniatures rules
CW:	Ral Partha's "Chaos Wars" rules

I'll start collecting a set if people will e-mail me suggestions.

>Even if that is the "only real difference" between the two groups of games,
>I would argue that it is a fundamental difference.

The real question is, is there enough of a core of shared interest?
Would the majority of postings be of interest to the majority of readers?
And if not, what alternative would you propose?  Unless you moderate
rec.games.miniatures, the charter doesn't mean squat -- people will
post to a group what they think the name means.

>>You can make whatever distinctions you like, but it doesn't change the
>>fact that to an outsider, we're all a bunch of people pushing a large
>>number of models around a tabletop.

>Well, then, Andrew, we probably ought to combine with rec.models.railroad.

Who run motorized vehicles around semi-permanent, highly detailed boards,
in simulation of non-combat situations?  No, it's not anywhere near as
close.  There's commonality of discussion regarding occasional scenic
items, but even then the static nature of railroad scenery versus
the non-static makes for little overlap.  And with the exception of
armored trains, there's no real overlap in the historical discussion.  What
else could you possibly discuss together that is relevant to both fields?
How to keep the kids from breaking your stuff?  How to explain to your
spouse that you spent $1000 on {the Imperial Guard/a brass K-4 Pacific}?

>Nevertheless, I feel that model railroading
>and historical miniature gaming should be in separate forums --
>precisely my position on historical and fantasy miniatures.

Well, counter-propose then.  Don't just say "great group, now you guys
stay out!"  If rec.games.miniatures is made, the net.fantasy.wargamers
are going to be there whether you like it or not.

>To me, it makes a very big difference indeed what kind of models
>I push around the table.  I'll push Napoleonics, and I'll push
>ships, but I won't push elves.

I've pushed all of the above.  You don't get cooties, you know.

Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu


  
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