HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Questions sparked by Portal
Organization: ----
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:34:51 GMT

9207.29 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


old Tagi:

>While I'm all in favor of breadth of discussion, I don't think
>that I'll follow any posts that have 'New Age' overtones.

>'Theosophy' did much to muddy the waters and stir up the
>imagination-stew.  Valuable activities, yet not very applicable
>to the study of eastern religion per se.


James:

What are New Age overtones?


Response:

They take the forms of traditional religion (terms, gestures, etc.) and
interpret another meaning to them.  Nothing wrong with this.  A valuable
undertaking, but not directly associated with the traditions themselves,
which is what I'm calling 'Old Age'.  I rather doubt that much of it is
new.  Many of the Asian terms have been given a Judeo-Christian 'twist'.


James:

What are Old Age overtones?


Response:

See above.


James:

What is Theosophy, and what waters did it muddy?


Response:

Theosophy is an organization which was begun by a 'Madame Blavatsky'.
It muddied the waters of scholarly studies of Hinduism.  It also 
helped keep the waters extant to some degree.


James:

What is Eastern religion per se?


Response:

Eastern interpretations of Asian terms and phrases within a general study
of anything considered part of Asian religious traditions.


James:

Since no one wrote down anything Buddha was suppose to have said
until two to four-hundred years after his death, how shall we
remove the dust from any supposed per se?


Response:

I do not speak for an eastern tradition when I respond to this 
and the following questions.

We shall remove the dust by approaching Buddha directly.


James:

If Buddha had written it down, would any shreds of the originals
have survived?


Response:

'Would's are largely futile, in my opinion.  Buddha could not write
down Hir wisdom.  It had to be seeded directly, like flowers.


James:

Smiles and benign retributions upon all our ignorant heads!


Response:

The sword for the mighty!  Suffering for all of our enlightened bodies!


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: dorothy@cvedc.prime.com (Dorothy Robinson)
Subject: Re: Rebirth / Reincarnation
Organization: Computervision R&D, Beaverton OR
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:30:29 GMT

>> It has been said that a yogi meditating quietly in a Himalayan cave
>> does more good for the world than even the most strenuous humanitarian
>> efforts of hundreds of men.
> 
> Can someone explain the mechanism here?  I don't doubt the statement,
> necessarily, but I need a bit more of an explanation to understand what
> is being claimed, and on what basis.

I have a visual way of thinking of this.  Imagine a tightly-stretched,
horizontal sheet of cloth.  That's the spiritual level of the world.  When
the yogi, being part of the sheet, retires to the cave and raises his spiritual
level, it's like pinching the sheet and pulling upward on it - the whole
thing tents up.  It works because all the nodes are interconnected.

===========================================================================
Dorothy Mokuren Robinson                           dorothy@cvedc.prime.com
     whose opinions are not those of...
Computervision
14952 NW Greenbrier Parkway, Beaverton, Oregon 97006   Phone (503)690-7861
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Subject: Re: Metaphors and Reality
Organization: ----
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:21:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.175326.27182@cco.caltech.edu> mw@frodo.ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:
>"xXx"
>
>We are seeing the letters "xXx" above.
>Well, that's not true. There's a pattern looking: "xXx"

the 3 gates to deliverance are emptiness, signless, and wishless.
i have found that emptiness and wishlessness have helped me settle
into a greater peace and creativity.
but i haven't really understood signlessness.
i imagine that signlessness is related to the basic yoga practices
of controlling the mind's tendency to continually perceive "things"
from the sense streams, text and other visual perceptions, sounds, etc.
When one is practicing Lazen, signlessness automatically is achieved
somewhat since it takes much effort to read, study, play, etc.
I would imagine that all sense data is unperceived in some
advanced states of samadhi.

Since this is about "Metaphor and Reality". I would like to continue
on a related topic.  I was watching a group of Vietnamese eating lunch
and was thinking about the sacredness of food. The metaphor of Brahma
and the Primal Sacrifice came to mind. I was thinking about the
nature of compassion represented by the act of the Sacrifice to
feed and nourish people. From this i progressed to the notion of
how Buddhahood is related to the notion of reaching a transcendent
state that could be used to help "feed" people by being a
source of comfort and wisdom to them.

Don't ask how the above two paragraphs are related.

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: More than a flash of memory (more reincarnation)
Organization: ----
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 21:13:12 GMT

9207.20 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Gary Trujillo and Tom McFarlane have written some wonderful text about
rebirth and spirituality.  My brief comment follows:
 
For me the response to the question of 'rebirth' comes back, again
and again, to that question which both previous posts mention.
"Who and what are we" that we may be reborn?  Put still differently,
What, exactly, is it that we think IS reborn?  I have watched for
this 'thing' called a 'soul' for years now.  No sign.  I'm unconvinced
that there is a 'me' to watch or a 'soul' to see.

Tom put it best when he said that this could only be realized through
personal experience.  No amount of 'speculation' will reveal the truth
(and falsity) of it.  While I'm all in favor of breadth of discussion,
I don't think that I'll follow any posts that have 'New Age' overtones.
I used to subscribe to such newsgroups and found that their metaphors
were not something in which I found consistent value.

I don't see that they relate to eastern religions except through graft
or 'trickle-down'.  Too many of the terms will be seen to be used in
unorthodox ways.  'Theosophy' did much to muddy the waters and stir up
the imagination-stew.  Valuble activities, yet not very applicable
to the study of eastern religion per se.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


Yours in contribution,


Fr. Nigris
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Subject: Metaphor?  A response to Thomas
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 01:09:17 GMT


mcfarlan@corona.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane)
SAYS:
>My view is that any religious cosmology (like a scientific or other kind of
>cosmology) is ultimately of a metaphorical nature.  It is not a map
>of reality but a map of imagination.  If we forget this and start taking
>notions like rebirth as "real" then we will tend to get stuck in the
>cosmology.

Thoughts about the fundamental nature of the universe may be expressed in
metaphorical or non-metaphorical language.  But the type of language used is
independent of the reality or truth of the things spoken of.  The fact that
great questions are phrased in metaphor has no essential bearing on whether
they are real in the factual scientific sense.   

When we lack (today) the necessary perceptual equipment to assertain the
truth of a fundmental question, we may lean on traditional metaphors.  But
this does not mean the things suggested by the metaphors are necessarily
outside of what can be known, and therefore somehow unreal.  Moreover, the
stars bear witness to the fact that the same reality may appeal to the
metaphorical imagination or the scientific interests.

I believe the thought Thomas is moving toward is a good one, namely that we
should not confuse symbol with reality.  However, things are not "factual" or
"imaginative" because they are commonly refered to in metaphorical terms.  
Language does indeed function as a map and we should not confuse our maps
with the territory they symbolize.  But this does not mean that some maps do
not correspond to real territory.  Language about great questions may
sometimes be, as Thomas suggests, a "map of imagination," but somtimes
language (whether metaphorical or not) may be a map of real territory.

I offer two quotes concordant with the seed of truth in Thomas' thought:

"Men suppose their reason has command over their words; still it happens that
words in return exercise authority on reason."  (Bacon)  
  
"He made a brilliant and very useful analogy when he compared language to a
map...language can be manipulated, and maps altered so much as not to
correspond to territory."   (S. Hayakawa)   


--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

[minor spelling corrections for clarity -aaron]
From: KLEINSCHMIDT@MCCLB0.MED.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Books on Ramana Maharshi
Date: 26 Jul 92 01:24:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Jul26.034256.11666
Organization: NYU Medical Center, 550 First Ave., New York, 10016

Re: Books on Ramana Maharshi
 
There used to be a storefront in NYC on 6th Street between 2nd and 3rd Ave. 
(342 East 6th St., the address given by Roger Adams) which served as a small 
ashram dedicated to Sri Ramana Maharshi.  I was completely floored the first 
time I came across it, almost 10 years ago: an ashram for Ramana Maharshi, 
here on this quiet side street in the East Village, in the midst of a dozen 
inexpensive Indian restaurants!  Alas, what was a small outpost for the 
veneration of one of India's greatest saints isn't there anymore; another 
Indian restaurant has sprung up in its place.  Rather sad.  I believe the 
Indian fellow who opened this storefront at certain times to the public for 
quiet meditation, was displaced to Brooklyn.
 
Anyway, books and information about Ramana Maharshi can be obtained from:
 
        Ramana Maharshi Foundation of America
        P.O.Box 231486
        Encinitas, CA 92023
 
This is an organization which consists of Joan and Matthew Greenblatt who must 
have moved to California from Sarasota, Fla., just a few months ago.
 
The best books about Ramana Maharshi are those written by Arthur Osborne:
 
        Ramana Arunachala ($3.25)
        
        The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi ($9.95)
 
        Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge ($9.95)
 
The latter two are distributed by Samuel Weiser and are widely available.  
Then there is also Paul Brunton's well-known book "A Search in Secret India" 
(publ. by Samuel Weiser) which devotes two or three chapters to Ramana 
Maharshi.
 
Jochen
From: jeffjc@cs.mcgill.ca (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: IYMPC: International Yoga, Meditation, and Prayer Competition
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:57:47 GMT
Organization: ----

Donald A. Smith (dsmith@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:

>                      Announcing
>
>                        IYMPC
>
>   International Yoga, Meditation, and Prayer Competition
>
>                          _ 
>                         | |
>                          |
>                         /|\  
>                        / @ \  
>                       \-- --/
>
>
>     Where:  Brandeis University, Waltham, MA (USA)
>             Hassenfeld Convocation Center
>
>     When:   Friday October 29 (7:00 pm) through 
>             Sunday October 31, 1992 (4:00 pm)
>
>     What:   Competition in 9 categories, with rankings by an
>             international panel of spiritually advanced judges.
> 
>             Category 1:  Yoga Asanas         (Yogi Amrit Desai)
>             Category 2:  Pranayama           (Yogi Bhajan)
>             Category 3:  Chanting            (The Dalai Lama)
>             Category 4:  Sitting             (Joshu Sasaki Roshi)
>             Category 5:  Aura Projection     (Ram Dass)
>             Category 6:  Smiles              (Ramana Maharshi (ascended))
>             Category 7:  Fervent Prayer      (Mother Teresa)
>             Category 8:  Depth of Meditation (Sri Chinmoy)
>             Category 9:  Faith               (Pir Vilayat)
>
>             
>             The pranayama competition will include contests on
>             lung capacity and duration of holding of breath.
>
>             The chanting competition includes a contest on OM volume,
>             duration, and resonance.
[etc]

Ha! 
I'm particularly interested in the mock deprogramming session.
Please tell us more about it.


Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------
|    Jeff Chance                       | That to which you   |
|    Dept. of Chemistry                | give your attention |
|    McGill University, Montreal       | becomes stronger in |
|    MAIL: jeffjc@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca | your life.          |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: portal!cup.portal.com!Tagi@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: A Yogi meditating quietly...
Organization: ----
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 21:34:20 GMT

9207.20 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.



The question was asked how a yogi sitting quietly in a cave may be
considered to be 'contributing' as much as political activists.


Response:

1) Self and Other are one.  There is no real difference between ourselves
and all else.  The cave is the desert, the desert, city.  The city
is the mountain.  All are One in these realms.


2) Activism is more anxiety-producing and often non-spontaneous than
any other activity.  It is the thorn which removes the thorn.  The
yogi simply tosses both thorns away and sets an example.


3) 'Doing' something is harm.  The yogi takes the path of ahimsa.


4) The connections between things are more complicated than 'cause-effect'
surface models.  Conscious activities dive down deeply into the World
Mind and resurface in strange places.  The yogi brings about the energy
which makes activism itself possible.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


Yours in citified isolation,


Fr. Nigris
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: The War Between Us
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:30:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.010541.851@midway.uchicago.edu> h431@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <40015@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> db@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
>>Ciaran McHale writes:
>>>	Bisexuals need to build their own community rather than try to
>>>	integrate with the existing lesbian and gay communities.
>>
>>Uh, Ciaran, what do you think we've been doing?  You, know, with the
>>bisexual groups and conferences and newletters and books and videos and
>>newspaper articles and phonelines and pen-pal schemes and parties and
>>e-mail lists and newsgroups and summer camps and retreats and leaflets
>>and magazine articles and stuff?
>>
>>Actually, I'd phrase it rather differently:
>>
>>       Bisexuals need to build their own community and try to
>>       work with existing communities, including lesbian and
>>       gay communities.
>>
>>What do other folk think?
>>
>>Dave.
>I totally agree.  And it seems to be working at U of C.  When the
>Bisexual Union has a party, we invite the les-gay groups, the main one,
>law school, divinity school, etc.  People do show up!  There seems to
>be co-operation and friendliness.  
>
>For me personally, there are times I need to talk to other bi people 
>about what's going on in my life since they'll understand better than
>anybody else.  Sometimes I need to be in women-only space, sometimes
>mixed-gender space.  It just depends.
>- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu

I agree with Dave and Heather.  Dave's restatement gets away from treating
community as an "either/or" -- I want a mixed strategy.

I also agree that UCBU seems like a great model of les/gay-bisexual
cooperation and breaking down boundaries (even going so far as sometimes 
having a "token straight" ;).  It is also one of the best organized and
effective bi organizations I've run into, and a very friendly place (not
unlike a non-virtual version of soc.bi minus the cross-posts).  I don't 
know if I should attribute this to: 1) the stirling qualities of key
people like heather or mary anne or peg or cliff and ellen (etc.) 2) the
open-minded, tolerant qualities of many people at the U. of C. (though 
I know there are also some notorious 'phobes.) 3) the geographic isolation
of Hyde Park that throws people back on their own resources and encourages
initiative 4) incredible luck ;).

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cmclark@dri.com (Chip Clark)
Subject: Re: Drummers (was Re: OK - I give in...)
Organization: Desktop Systems Group/Novell, Monterey CA/USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 21:00:57 GMT

As a musician . . .


By the way I'm a muffin, too . . .


I find the brass players have better lips (I'm a brass player) and
find the trombone and excellent tool to teach the proper slide techniques!

Then again, the oboe can really teach how to grash something by the lips
and give it a real buzz!!!!


- Not yet officially bi - but heavy contemplation of heavy petting!
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there?
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:00:13 GMT
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Followup-To: soc.bi
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

In article <1992Jul29.182429.5854@iscsvax.uni.edu> vaughan4955@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>As I am totally new to this newsgroup, I haven't read all that much
>from here so I have to be ignorant and ask:  is there anyone out there
>from the Midwest area?  I am from Iowa (not Idaho, Iowa) where being
>bi is unheard of (even though *I* am bi).  I had relationships with
>women throughout high school and a few years into college before I
>realized that my feelings for men weren't just fantasies to be straight.
>
Well, there is a clump of us in Chicago, if you consider this to be the
"Midwest".  I seem to recall someone else asking a similar question, too.

If your parents are supportive of homosexuals but not bis, it may be time
to work on common bi "myths" and see where their misconceptions are
centered.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9807 soc.motss:32995
From: sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Screaming Yellow (Re: The War Between Us (Long))
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:12:51 GMT
Organization: News Addicts

henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:

>ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) wrote: 
>->This iz anothar isue thet seperates our comminuties.  The spelling priveledged
>->from the spellinng diverse.  

>"differently-spelt."

Speling-chalenjed, purhapps?

Sera
-- 
 >{8-)     Sara Hopkins     (-8}<              _____^__
 Geography Dept.  Edinburgh Uni.  Drummond St. \ OOO/ / The Thing
 Edinburgh,  EH8  9XP,  UK. +44 (0/31) 650 2662 \++/ /   From
 >{8-) sara@geovax.ed.ac.uk (-8}<                \/\/ The Swamp
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Subject: Re: Marraige and Apartheid
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:17:48 GMT


I've been reading this debate on marrying or not marrying to oppose the fact that
motss cannot be married.  I thought I would insert some options of my own on this
issue (and you can flame me if you don't like them).

There are some who say that if you belief that motss should be legally permitted
to marry then by opposing marriage (which currently is only for motos) and not
getting married, then the people in power (those that can change the law) are 
going to notice and change it.  I have to disagree with this.  One legal motss
marriage would have more impact than 10,000 couples agreeing not to marry.

Why is this?  Because marriage is legalized by the government.  The government
doesn't care whether or not people get married (even if during election campaigns
they say that they do); all they are truly concerned about is the fact that you
pay your taxes and that you don't revolt.  It makes no difference to the govern-
ment whether you're a married couple paying taxes, or two people living together
and paying taxes.

By not getting married, the only people that might notice is the church... all 
they will most likely never go for motss marriages and think that those who
want it are immoral.

How do you affect changed?  By taking the government to court on its laws.  There
are documents like the US Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and
Freedoms that guarantee people cannot be discriminated against by their government
on issues based solely a person's sex, religion or sexual orientation.

If someone really wants to take this issue on, they should go and try to get
legally married at a local court house.  If they succeed, then precedence has
been set.  If they fail, they can go to their Humans Right Commission (or similar
organization) and fight it based on discrimination.  Even if the case fails, the
government will now be aware that people want motss marriages.  If enough cases
flood the courts, then they are definitely going to pay attention and may be
wise enough to do something about it.

Those that agree that motss should be permitted to marry (whether or not they
are married to motos) should phone their local politicians and find out their
views.  Put some pressure on the politicians, and they are bound to react...
especially if they can get more votes.

Ciao,

Brad Booth               | -> BNR doesn't stand for Baskin 'N' Robbins,
Bell-Northern Research   |    but during the summer we wish it did.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada  | -> Me speak for BNR?  I've enough problems
bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca   |    trying to speak for myself.
From: IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Life does funny things sometimes
Date: 29 Jul 92 06:25:01 GMT
 <1992Jul25.102736.21446@news.acns.nwu.edu> <40104@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>
 <1992Jul28.190620.7260@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: University of Maine System

well, NOW is pretty much RUN by lesbians these days.  at least at
the local levels.  i went to the state NOW convention and there wasn't
a straight woman in the place!  lesbian rights is definitely one of
their planks these days...
                                       -ailsa
--