Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 17:59:08 PST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         John Setel O'Donnell <jod@EQUATOR.COM>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl and symptoms
              Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:12:57 -0500

    Re your theory about using penicillin and antifungals together....
   ...using antibiotics promotes the growth of yeast, so in a
    short period of time you'd be back in the same situation.  It is a very
    circular situation, because an overgrowth, or systemic infection of yeast
    has a negative effect on your immune system.

Antifungals are what are used to fight yeast infections.  And I believe
that the "systemic yeast infection theory of CFS" has now long been
debunked.

    Another point that has bothered me about massive doses/extended use of
    antibiotics - everything that I've read  from a naturopathic point of view
    emphasizes that antibiotics can ultimately have a negative effect on the
    immune system.  It seems that in the long run, they may create just as many
    problems as they solve, since all of the conditions we've been discussing
    (Lyme, CFS, etc.) are characterized by deficient immune systems.  Any other
    thoughts on this?

As I've been on long-term antibiotic therapy and have heard the above
comment from many sources in the past, I've asked a number of
physicians about this point -- effect of antibiotics on the immune
system.  The unanimous response has been that there's no effect,
proven in many studies.  The risks, I've been told, consist of:
- developing strains of bacteria resistant to the antibiotics you're
  taking;
- upset stomach/other GI effects of the antibiotic
- overgrowth of yeast and/or Clostridium difficile, the latter resulting in
  diarrhea which could need medical attention.
All of the above risks are why you see a physician to take antibiotics.

Regarding Lyme and the immune system, some researchers believe that
the Lyme spirochete gets the immune system into a state of chronic
activation, which results in many of the symptoms, as others have pointed
out.  Even the early US research papers commented on what a big immune
response even small spirochete populations can trigger.  Recently a
mechanism has been identified which might be responsible.  Horror of
horrors, the spirochete constantly manufactures and sheds small
"blebs", or bubbles, of spirochetal DNA. (The folks at Rocky Mountain
Labs discovered this in the process of working on new staining
techniques for the spirochete.)  It's not clear why it does this, or
whether these are involved in the dissemination of the infection;
however, some speculate that the blebs cause a lot of the chronic immune
response.

While we're on this topic, let me once again state clearly what I
may have already said too many times.  Based on everything I've read, and
the limited contact I've had with others in the Lyme community, I
DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANY OF THE IMMUNE SYSTEM DISORDER PERSISTS IN THE
ABSENCE OF THE SPIROCHETE. That is, the continuing symptoms of Lyme (or
CFS or fibromyalgia or MS or ME or ACA or whatever you want to call
it) result from continuing spirochetal infection.

(One piece of indirect evidence comes from the experience of Fort
Dodge Labs and their vaccine for Lyme, approved and marketed for dogs.
It's made from busted-up (sonicated) spirochetes.  If the "chronic
immune response from one-time spirochetal infection" theory were
correct, one would expect to see a large number of dogs disabled as a
result of having received the vaccine; dogs get Lyme and have many of
the same kinds of chronic symptoms that humans do.  Now that several
million doses of the vaccine have been sold (and, presumably,
administered), there are _no_ reports of dogs disabled by the
vaccine.)


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