From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 00:08:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.013656.22623@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>
># No I understand you very well, Danny.  With all due respect, either
># we're having a serious communication problem ...

I think I see the problem now.

>...
>However, I am
>seriously deadlocked with you about the issue of Islam being transfered by
>the father. I asked two Muslem guys here - one from India and one from
>Turkey (both graduate students) - and they disagree with you; in their
>opinion, the son of a Moslem father is considered a Moslem, and that
>is that.

Again, not by definition.  I think I see the source of confusion now.
It seems that both you and them fail to see the distinction between the
verbs "presume" and "consider".  

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, ``to presume something is
to guess it as being reasonable or possible beforehand or without full 
knowledge, but it may imply an unwarranted conclusion.''  The accused 
is *presumed* innocent until proven guilty.  

The verb `consider' means ``to believe after deliberation; judge.''
It is used to refer ``to holding opinions or views that reflect 
evaluation of a person or thing...''  It ``suggests objective evaluation 
based on reflection and reasoning.''

The son of a Muslim father is presumed to be a Muslim, until proven
otherwise.   He is, however, by definition, *considered* a Muslim on 
the basis of his religious *beliefs and practice*, not because his father
happens to be a Muslim.  If he openly rejects the Islamic faith or can be
shown to have done so, then he cannot be regarded as a Muslim.

>They mentioned Rushdie, who is considered a Moslem, although
>he most definitly can not be described as one "practicing Islam". 

If Rushdie came out and openly declared that he is an atheist or an
agnostic, if he said that he doesn't consider praying five times a day
a duty on every Muslim, he would be considered a non-Muslim.   On the
other hand, if Danny Keren came out and openly declared he is an atheist 
or an agnostic, he would still be considered a Jew, because his mother 
is Jewish.  So, to suggest that Rushdie is "considered" Muslim just 
because his father happens to be a Muslim, is totally false.  He is 
presumed to be a Muslim, because no one has shown that he has rejected 
the Islamic faith.  Capich?

>I find
>your definition strange. For instance, there are many estimates to the
>numbers of Moslems in the world. Do these estimates bring into account
>who "practices Islam" and who doesn't?

Probably not.  There are many estimates for the number of Christians in
the world.  Do these estimates take into account who practices Christianity
and who doesn't?  Probably not.  A child of a Christian is presumed to
be Christian, until this is shown not to be true.

But, that's irrelevant to the issue at hand.  The point is that unlike
Judaism, were a Jew is *defined* by his matrilineal bloodline, in Islam,
a Muslim is *defined* by his religious beliefs and practices.  See the
example above.

>...
>And now, for my mention of the persecution of Jews by Moslem societies
>in the past.

It had nothing to do with the issue at hand.  It was not called for.
It seemed like an attempt to shift the discussion to a different
area.

>The reason I bring this (as well as persecution of Jews
>by the Christian Church) is that it is *strongly related* to the
>attitude of Jews (especially in the past) to these religions. 

Past injustices cannot excuse present ones.  Today, Zionism, in the name 
of world Jewry and Judaism, is denying the Palestinians people (both Muslims 
and Christians) their inalienable rights in their own homeland.  Why not
condemn that too?

>...
>As to your question:

Let's recall it here:
 The Palestinians are being denied their political and human rights, killed, 
 deported, and terrorized (the occupation is the highest form of terrorism, 
 IMHO) today.  The question now is this: are you willing to acknowledge the 
 crimes and work to stop the injustices against the Palestinian people which 
 are being perpetrated, today, in Israel, by zionism (which is a settler 
 colonialist movement) all in the name of world Jewry and Judaism?  Do you,
 Danny, support, and are you prepared to work for, total and genuine equality 
 between Jews and non-Jews who live in Palestine/Israel today?


>yes, I have a certain political agenda which I
>pursue, and I think you are, to some extent, familiar with it. I am
>not, though, a political activist, so I do the little I can do within
>my limitations.

It seems to me that you're trying to duck the question.  That's your choice.
But, judging from you past postings, it seems to me that you don't deny that
those injustices exist.  It would therefore be nice if you'd be more clear 
and forthcoming in answering my question. 

Are you prepared to acknowledge and condemn present injustices that are done 
in the name of world Jewry and Judaism with same vigor that you use when the 
victims happen to be Jews?  I certainly hope you'd be.

This doesn't necessarily relate to you, Danny, but I'm reminded here with
an observation made by I. F. Stone, the award-winning American Jewish 
journalist in an article in August 1967 in _The New York Review of Books_.
He wrote:

   .... Israel is creating a kind of moral schizophrenia in world
   Jewry.  In the outside world the welfare of Jewry depends on the
   maintenance of  secular,  non-racial,  pluralistic societies.
   In Israel, Jewry finds itself defending a society in which mixed
   marriages cannot be legalized, in which the ideal is racial and
   exclusivist.  Jews might fight elsewhere for their very security
   and existence -- against principles and practices they find
   themselves defending in Israel.

>-Danny Keren.

Waleed Muhanna
-=-
"the man dies in all who keep silent in the face of tyranny"
			Wole Soyinka, Nobel Laureate.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26034 soc.culture.greek:12382