HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: University standards (esp. Purdue)
Date: 27 Dec 92 16:52:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Florida State University Geology Dept.

In article <168C91397D.DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU> DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter) writes:
>In article <Bztt8t.9L8@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
>hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
> 
>>The
>>universities are giving in to the almost illiterate (at least in
>>mathematics and the sciences) high school preparation of the students,
>>and contributing to the demise of our academic and research capabilities.

	I find that I have time to only grade on a curve adjusted to
make 75% the average. I do tweak some final grades on the basis of some
qualitative absolute criteria (A=excellent, B=good, etc) based not on
multiple choice answers but fill ins and the rare essay question I
have had time to grade.

	Part of the problem here (and I assume elsewhere) is that if
you put a course on a higher level students will migrate elsewhere
which will automatically delete the professor and that course from
future offerings. The fact that there are ways to wiggle through
the system of education both K-12 and "higher" to find easy paths
means that there has been and will be continual degradation.  

	Essentially there are too many students per faculty (including
helpers) to be able to do a better job at any level. 
Joseph Cain		cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu   
cain@fsu.bitnet		scri::cain
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space,alt.rush-limbaugh
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.92Dec28192905@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Dec29.164827.13239@cs.rochester.edu> <C01Eq7.JLp@zoo.toronto.edu>
Date: 29 Dec 92 13:25:06

In article <C01Eq7.JLp@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
   References: <1992Dec23.110509.22141@ke4zv.uucp> <1hobsgINN3b1@agate.berkeley.edu> <JMC.92Dec28192905@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <1992Dec29.164827.13239@cs.rochester.edu>
   Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
   Lines: 16

   In article <1992Dec29.164827.13239@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
   >World-wide, nodules are estimated to contain billions of tons of
   >copper and nickel, and enough manganese to supply current mine demand
   >for that element for roughly 10,000 years.  Additional sources of
   >metals (such as copper and cobalt) are available as crusts on the sea
   >floor, and in massive sulfides deposited at mid-ocean ridges...

   We'll be mining in space long before we exploit any of the sea-bottom
   resources.  The socialists rule the oceans and don't want any dirty
   capitalist mining venture making money off the "common property of
   mankind".  The US State Department was on the brink of giving them the
   rest of the universe too, but the L5 Society (may it rest in peace)
   managed to block Senate ratification of the infamous Moon Treaty.
   -- 
   "God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
	  -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

According to Paul Dietz, the U.S. never even signed the Law of the Sea
treaty.  The problem at present is merely that there are much cheaper
sources of metals.  Prices are still declining.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: Government-run programs  Was: Re: Justification for the Sp
X-Sender: newtout 0.05 Dec 30 1992
Date: 02 Jan 93  15:51:44

The amount of media coverage of space is entirely irrelevant to the
development of space.
 
You don't see people worrying that media coverage of airliner operation is too 
limited or biased. If we are going to get into space in a big way, we need to 
realize that the days of massive media coverage of space are gone. Lindberg's 
flight over the Atlantic received a huge media blitz, but mine was totally
ignored.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Government-run programs  Was: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:07:51 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <C01DCJ.FGK@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>There are other government interventions than the obvious ones...

Indeed, one slightly non-obvious one is the Outer Space Treaty, which
essentially says that there is no such thing as a purely private
spaceflight.  It does this by the back door:  if your spaceship falls on
somebody in another country and hurts him, your government is liable.
Not *you*, not your *company*, but your *government*.  This makes your
government a silent partner in all space activities you conduct... except
that "silent" is definitely not the right word. :-(
-- 
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 22 Dec 92  09:50:54

The reason that it would take longer to go to the Moon now than in 1961 is
that all of the Germans are dead.
 
More likely, NASA has become a fossilized bureaucracy, unable to even
construct a small space station on time; going to the Moon is a much
larger proposition, with less chance that NASA, in its present form, can do it 
at all.
 
Fortunately, its current Administrator is aware of this situation, and looks
like he is planning to reform the agency so that it can perform the tasks that 
it was designed to do.

--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
From: DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter)
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 19:16:22 EST

The space program is a symbol of national pride - something that seems to have
been lacking in recent years (with all the hype about how awful US business and
technology is compared with that of the Japaneese, etc.)  Not only is the money
 givien to the space program justified in its technological gains, but also its
emotional gains.  Few events throughout history have created as much national
pride with so small a cost than the lunar expeditions.
  In another message someone said that it would take 10 years to get back to th
e moon.  WHY!?!  President Kennedy made his speach that motivated man toward th
e moon in 1961, resulting in a man on the moon in 1969.  Why would it take lon
ger now than it did then?  Why is NASA and the governement dragging there feet
so much.  If the country was willing to take the risks, it seems the technology
exists to put a man on Mars by early 1995.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wron
g.
                                 -Brad Porter
DRPORTER@SUVM
Xref: sparky talk.politics.space:1636 sci.space:18382 alt.rush-limbaugh:12409
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space,alt.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Date: 29 Dec 92 23:24:13 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester

In article <C01Eq7.JLp@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

> We'll be mining in space long before we exploit any of the sea-bottom
> resources.  The socialists rule the oceans and don't want any dirty
> capitalist mining venture making money off the "common property of
> mankind".  The US State Department was on the brink of giving them the
> rest of the universe too, but the L5 Society (may it rest in peace)
> managed to block Senate ratification of the infamous Moon Treaty.

But...

(1) The US never ratified the Law of the Sea Treaty either, and

(2) Estimates of the metal content of the Gorda Ridge polymetallic
  sulfides -- which are in the US economic exclusion zone -- range
  up to 10^9 tons (although noone knows for sure, as they are not
  economical at this time.)  These deposits are somewhat different
  from nodules, containing significant silver and gold.

Also, some of the Pacific nodules are within 200 miles of various
island nations, so only those nations, not the UN/etc., must be
dealt with the exploit those resources.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space,alt.rush-limbaugh
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:46:40 GMT

In article <JMD.92Dec30110158@lion.bear.com> jmd@bear.com (Josh Diamond) writes:
>
>Did it ever occur to anyone out there to consider the environmental
>impact of large scale disruption of the sea floor?  I could result in 
>severe problems with algal blooms and plankton die-offs, with effects
>all the way up the food chain...

The deep sea bottom is one of the most barren deserts on Earth, except
around certain volcanic vents. If the materials can be mined without
pumping large amounts of muck to the surface and discharging it in
near surface waters, there should be minimal environmental impact.
That means semi-autonomous submersible harvesters, a tough but not
impossible task.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.space:1639 sci.space:18413 alt.rush-limbaugh:12457
From: jmd@bear.com (Josh Diamond)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space,alt.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:01:58 GMT
	<C01Eq7.JLp@zoo.toronto.edu> <1992Dec29.232413.25117@cs.rochester.edu>
Organization: Bear, Stearns & Co. - FAST
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 29 Dec 92 23:24:13 GMT


In article <1992Dec29.232413.25117@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

   (2) Estimates of the metal content of the Gorda Ridge polymetallic
     sulfides -- which are in the US economic exclusion zone -- range
     up to 10^9 tons (although noone knows for sure, as they are not
     economical at this time.)  These deposits are somewhat different
     from nodules, containing significant silver and gold.

   Also, some of the Pacific nodules are within 200 miles of various
   island nations, so only those nations, not the UN/etc., must be
   dealt with the exploit those resources.

Did it ever occur to anyone out there to consider the environmental
impact of large scale disruption of the sea floor?  I could result in 
severe problems with algal blooms and plankton die-offs, with effects
all the way up the food chain...

Spidey!!!


--
You don't hunt ducks with a turnip! 

 /\ \  / /\  Josh Diamond                                          jmd@bear.com
//\\ .. //\\ AKA Spidey!!!                        ...!ctr.columbia.edu!ursa!jmd
//\((  ))/\\
/  < `' >  \                                              Do whatever it takes.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Followup-To: talk.politics.space,sci.space
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: usa, world
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 18:35:31 GMT

Joe Trott (joet@dcatlas.dot.gov) wrote:
> dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones) writes:
> 
> >John McCarthy (jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> >> Let me add to the previous post the estimate that the total amount of
> >> matter humanity has processed in its history is less than 10^12 tons.
> >> --
> >> John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
> >> *
> >> He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
> >>
> >So let's do arithmetic: assume 5e10 people have lived to date.  That's
> >20 tons per person across all of human history.  Divide by a human life:
> >0.5 to 0.3 tons per year.  Say a few pounds a day.  Well, I think we know
> >what kind of processing this number figures to represent.  Alimentary, my
> >dear Watson.
> 
> That sounds like a lot of crap to me!
> 
> (Sorry, I couldn't resist...:))
> 
That's OK.  You probably had a case of the trots.....

--
||------------------------------------------------------------------------
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: <None>
Followup-To: talk.politics.space
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 02:51:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.214118.6461@cs.rochester.edu>, dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
> In article <neff.13.725750112@iaiowa.physics.uiowa.edu> neff@iaiowa.physics.uiowa.edu (John S. Neff) writes:
> 
>> Most polls show that the public wants a manned space program, and they
>> are willing to pay for it.
> 
> You have to be careful with polls.  A poll in which people are asked
> "do you want a manned space program?" will ellicit a generally
> positive response.  However, similar questions on other issues, like
> education, health care, and so on, ellicit much more positive
> responses.  The *relative* support of the space program is not very
> high.
> 
> Followup to talk.politics.space.
> 
> 	Paul F. Dietz
> 	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

Maybe what is needed is a poll to ask people if they would rather have a manned
or unmanned space program. Also wether they want a cheaper which gets things
done more, or a more expensive and less done. OR any combo of the questions..
More for less or more for expensive, or Less for expense..

==
==
Michael Adams alias Ghost Wheel/Morgoth NSMCA@acad3.alaska.edu


Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Subject: Re: Justification for the Space Program
Followup-To: talk.politics.space,sci.space
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: usa, world
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 15:23:28 GMT

John McCarthy (jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> Let me add to the previous post the estimate that the total amount of
> matter humanity has processed in its history is less than 10^12 tons.
> --
> John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
> *
> He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
>
So let's do arithmetic: assume 5e10 people have lived to date.  That's
20 tons per person across all of human history.  Divide by a human life:
0.5 to 0.3 tons per year.  Say a few pounds a day.  Well, I think we know
what kind of processing this number figures to represent.  Alimentary, my
dear Watson.

--
||------------------------------------------------------------------------
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space,alt.rush-limbaugh
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Breeder reactors (was Re: Justification for the Space Program
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 20:19:39 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1992Dec24.065426.29288@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>>Speaking of breeder reactors, why doesn't the U.S. have more of
>>>them?
>>Because they're too damn dangerous.
>
>Hardly. The Candu thermal breeder is about the closest thing we 
>have to a passively safe system. Hell they let unsupervised
>college students run them...

I really hate to disagree with a compliment, but alas, this confuses three
different flavors of reactor. :-)

The one they let students run is the Slowpoke, an inherently-safe reactor
(you could wreck the controls with a sledgehammer and nothing would happen)
widely used for research work.  Unfortunately, it doesn't scale up very well
and wouldn't be practical for power production.

The Candu is the heavy-water reactor widely used in Canada, and with a few
overseas sales too, for power production.  They don't let students run one
of those. :-)  It is a very efficient reactor, capable of running on natural
uranium in a pinch, and with a consistently better record of time spent
on-line and operational than most of the US designs.  It's one of the more
prominent examples to point to when arguing that the US should have explored
the reactor design space a bit more thoroughly before picking specific types
for commercial power production.

The Candu is not a breeder, alas.  If you pushed the design hard in that
direction, you could get a small net gain -- fuel out exceeding fuel in --
but it's not the reactor you'd pick for the job.  (If I wanted a thermal
breeder, I'd pick the molten-salt reactor, but I'm not an expert and may
have missed a better alternative.)
-- 
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 26 Dec 92 19:45:25 GMT
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>That may be true Jake.  Pride does have a lot to do with it.  However,
>the point is that Palestinians are not happy living under oppression -
>subjected to horrible living conditions and rotting away waiting for
>recognition and freedom.  How joyful is it to be robbed of your identity
>and stripped completely of social rights and legal justice and discourse?
> 
>Perhaps you can understand, then, when you see the children in the intifada,
>who are standing up for their dignity and self-worth as human beings, that
>it is about a message to the world that they are alive and will not accept
>the fate that the Israeli government has destined for them.

In that case, perhaps they should be trying to persuade the
Jordanian-Palestinian Arab negotiating team to get off the mark and
start responding positively to some of the enormous concessions Israel
is making.

Just think.  If they had taken part in the negotiations called for
under the Camp David accords, the five year interim period would have
ended about half a decade ago!

But I guess the Arabs prefer to suffer, and murder Israelis, than to
negotiate in good faith and come up with a settlement both sides can
live with.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: LC
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:42:05 GMT

In article <212@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>In article <4718@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>
>[ANISA] There is no justification for oppression, there is no justification
>[ANISA] for tyranny, there is no justification for occupation, there is no
>[ANISA] justification for murdering little children, there is no justification
>[ANISA] for destroying homes, there is no justification for making settlements
>[ANISA] on the territories, there is no justification for expelling thousands
>[ANISA] of people, there is no justification for human rights violations, there
>[ANISA] is no justification for breaking international law, and, there is no
>[ANISA] justification for the kind of excuses that you are proposing.
>
>The same applies to any arab country in the middle east. Syria, Iraq, Jordan,
>Egypt, the Palestinians in Gaza and Lebanon, etc ... have done the above to 
>their own people. No ARAB should tell Israel how to behave. He/She should 
>first look into his/her backyard.

If the arabic dicators  kill palestinians, they're mainly being
obedient to the israeli orders: Kill the palestinin militants,
or we'll bomb your water dam, power source, .etc..

Besides, Israel's existence is what caused the arabic countries to
kill palestinians.  If israel did not come from Germany to rob
and land on Palestine (land of Jews/muslims/xians), then the 
palestinians would not have gone to live under dictatorships such
as in Kuwait.  Prior to the theft-existence of israel, Palestine
had the most prolofic economy in the region,  Beirut sea port
for example found prospersity only after that of Haifa, Palestine
was stolen to a bunch of thieves that arrived from Europe,
Yemen and what have you.  I am not attacking Jews, on the contrary,
Palestine is the land of Jews, Muslims,  and Christians.  I am
attacking thieves that use religion to rob the land.  Judaism
is much nicer than their behaviour, those theives don't represent
Judaism, the religion of God.


>[ANISA] Anisa (the lovely and talented)
>
>	Why don't you put a .gif file on the net so that we can really see 
>if this is the truth or just another piece of propaganda. :-)

I am afraid, you may die with a heart attack if you saw her
shiny gorgious beauty, or even if you heard her crystal voice. 
I don't advice her, she could get accused of second degree murder.  :)

jle



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Solutions to the problem? (was Re: Sgt
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 13:31:38 GMT

[ most of article deleted because I only wanted to address one point - dlm ]

In article <1hrhfvINNpa1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
 
	[ referring to collaberation with Nazis ]

# As for the 1948 time period, Husseini's part in it has been rather
# overblown.  The fact is, most of the Arabs of Palestine ignored
# his call to arms (except in the direct defence of their own
# villages).  Most of the "irregular" Arab forces in Palestine
# during the 1947-8 war were volunteers from other countries.

	I am not sure about all areas, nor about the exact time frame, but
in Bagdad for just one example swastikas were all over the place and
pogroms were not uncommon.

	Also, many Nazis were given safe haven in Arab countries.  Allois
Brunner is still living comfortably in Syria.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23924 talk.politics.soviet:9912 soc.culture.greek:11779 soc.culture.europe:10713 soc.history:10319 soc.culture.soviet:11436 soc.culture.croatia:204 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:937