HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Bible Defense
Organization: Glassboro State College (Au Revoir)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:37:31 GMT


Joe Moore writes an assortment of sensible things, but I think he
misunderstands what my earlier article was getting at:

> This point is often not stated correctly, but accepting the Bible as truth
> is a logical supposition, not a conclusion.

As a Christian, I see no reason to presuppose that the Bible is Inerrant.  I
have no complaint with people who say "I believe the Bible is Inerrant for no
reason other than I believe it."  My only complaint is with those who think
that I should ADOPT this belief.

Since I do not grant Inerrancy as a presupposition, someone who wants me to
adopt it has to have some reasons.


> Don't expect everyone who defends the Bible as authoratative to be a
> student of logic.  We don't expect that of people on the other side of
> the discussion.

If all that was being discussed is "I believe XXX" or "Believing XXX gives
me peace", that would be fine.  But that is not what is happening.

People are suggesting that Christians MUST believe Inerrancy, which amounts to
saying that I should begin believing the doctrine myself.

If someone wants me to believe what he does, he should have evidence and
arguments on hand to convince me.  For some things, merely stating a fact as
an eyewitness is sufficient (eg, "It's raining outside.").  For other things,
more substantial evidence is necessary (eg, "Fermat's Last Theorem is false.")


Inerrancy is on the "substantial" side of the spectrum; people who want me
to adopt such belief -- or who claim that such belief is a requirement of
Christianity -- had better have thoroughly researched, carefully reasoned,
ironclad, airtight, logically-valid arguments ready for presentation.

Numerous Inerrantists have made claims that, in my view, require irrefutable
proof.  Given that, I do not think it unreasonable to expect them to have some
understanding of what consititutes a proof, what the standard fallacies are,
and how to construct a sensible argument.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Recession: your friend loses his job.  Depression: you lose your job.
 Recovery: Bush loses his job" -- Bill Davidsen
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:09:26 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      NETNEWS/DAN GRAHAM/MY VOTE

First, Dan, I think people are going to steal your good stuff whether or
not we are attached to Netnews. My advice is to copyright anything that you
really want to quote own unquote. The person who connected my modem warned
me that anything I post to anyone, I'd better be prepared to have the world
read. Hope you can protect your own work.

If we are voting, I vote to stay with Netnews. Some of the most interesting
posts I read have come that route and I am glad we have attracted some
readers/members that way.

I'm just thankful that the feds haven't stepped in to regulate our
mail--yet.

In Christ,

Carol
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 00:34:47 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      practical family values
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	I've found Darren's question, and the responses, about traditional
family values interesting.  I was wondering though, can we base our
minitries on traditonal families?

	I grew up in the traditional home.  Mom the homemaker, Dad the
breadwinner, brother and I provided for comfortably.  However, the last 6 years
at college have shown me that my family is RARE.  What seems to make it even
rarer is that it was a reasonably functionable family.  I have one friend
who was sexually molested by her brother from the age of 10 to 16.  Her parents
refused to acknowlegde that anything happened for a long time.  Another friends
mom will go for weeks refuseing to talk to her.  Others have two or three
dads.  My roommate's mom has had three husbands when he grew up.  He wants
nothing to do with any of them, yet he wants a real dad.
	I'm sure that most everyone can continue this list.  My question is,
since traditional families are not what is out there in real life, should we
really orient our ministies toward them?  Or should we orient our ministries
to the life situations that people actually find themself in?

	I live in a house of single christian men.  They are my family.
Another household I know of consists of my (grown) friend dan, his mom, his
brother, his brothers son, and two friends.  They have all been living
separately, but decided to get a place together.  Across the street live
Ben and Sarah Sanders from my church, their daughter, and Don, a single
masters student who boards with them.  They form a family.  A block away, Our
26 year old church pianist lives with a recently widowed woman of our church.
They are a family.  Our friend Christi is having a baby in about 6 weeks.
When she comes back to school (maybe next spring), she and her baby will be a
family.
	Families now-a-days don't fit the traditional mold.  I am worried
that our ministies are leaving these people out.  Especially the ones that
concentrate on "family values", whatever they are.

Mark Drake
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:12:02 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Something more on Revelation

>It  was written by both !  The Holy Spirit and John.

>Shalom,
>Memo.

How do you now this?

The Holy Spirit hasn't rapped my knuckles yet for my position.

Jason
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Andrew J. Wollert
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:46 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Sorry, you're not really the subject!

I just wanted to thank you for the scoop on Groeschel's book.  Thanks.
                                                                     Zane.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:25:00 CDT
From:         Brenda/Bren <BJGAGE@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer request

Hello again...I am asking that you please be remembering my nephew who
who is enrolled in college and will be starting his freshman year Mon-
day, August 24th.  You may think...well big deal but for me it is be-
cause he has a learning disability and I have witnessed him struggle
through what most of us would not even take notice of when it comes to
academics.  I'm not saddened by this in any way..I thank God for his
determination and I really believe by the grace of God he will make it
through and when he does you can be certain this will be one aunt who
will praise God for His goodness.  Seca, that's his nickname, holds a
special place in my heart along with those who struggle in one way or
another in things we take as commonplace.  I have faith that God will
see him through and for some reason I sincerely believe that this
young man will make it!!!
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:44:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      RE: Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@udelvm.udel.edu

>
> And if you're really interested in understanding homosexuality instead of
> trying to "cure" it, go talk to a homosexual.
>
> -Alison

  Alison --  Don't need to.  I used to talk to myself all the time.
                                                           Rich
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:58:28 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dittoheads
              20 Aug 1992 08:26:00 CDT from <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>

If you have access to usenet, look for alt.fan.rush-limbaugh or
alt.rush-limbaugh

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:14:05 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Something more on Revelation

I just know it, Jason.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:09:02 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Family values

On Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:28:42 EDT Fritz Block, LCF Summer President said:
<Stuff omitted>
>> > banning the distribution of condoms in public schools
>>
>> I agree that distributing condoms "feels" wrong, but are there any statistics
>> about how is has affected incidence and frequency of sex?  Without them,
>there
>> is no way to know whether this will do anything or not.
>
>This isn't in one of my fields of expertise (as if I have any!) -- do
>you know of any stats, Michael Kline or anybody else?  But distributing
>condoms does send the message of condoning promiscuity, and if there
>aren't any stats saying that it has _cut down_ the indicidence and
>frequency of sex, then it's legitimate to call for an end to this
>practice.

There was a story in the papers a month or so ago about a school
district in Colorado that was one of the first to distribute condoms
and to have special programs for pregnant students.  There was a large
increase in the pregnancy rate.  (Note: special programs for pregnant
students can be good, but apparently these programs treated their
girls' pregnancies as just a lifestyle change.  (Now where have we
heard that phrase before?))

Marty Helgesen
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Steven Hoell
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:55 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Hi Steven,

    You asked if there were (are) any Nestorian Churches in this area.
Officially there aren't ANY churches in Saudi Arabia.  The Nestorians at
one time were certainly here... I like to think they are still around praying
for the people here now, that they will be given the opportunity to come to
the Truth.  I haven't met any Nestorians here yet.  There are many Coptic
Orthodox believers (expatriot workers from Egypt) here, many R.C. expatriot
workers from the Philipines and the U.S., and many nominal Christians of
various persuasions.  Surprisingly many Charismatics from India and the
Philipines are here too.  Please pray for them in particular because they
often take the brunt of the oppression against Christians.
    You asked what group I belong too.  That is a trick question right?
Of course like yourself I belong to the Church of the Firstborn, the Church
built on the foundation of the Rock, the Church which is the Temple made
not with human hands.  That is the only Church that really is, right?    P
                                                                         e
"To You our Head, glory, O Lord Messiah!  Alleluia!" (Odes of Solomon) peace
                                                                         c
                                                                         e
                                                        Zane.
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From: billc@housing.msstate.edu (Bill Chapman)
Subject: Re: Southern US
Organization: Housing Department, Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:39:56 GMT

In article <920812100146.3d9e@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> writes:
>Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:01:45 -0700
>From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

>Apparently, when he found out that they didn't go to church, he never came back
>to finish the job.

This conclusion is not warranted by the information given.  It is a form of
"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" (After this, therefore because of this) logical 
fallacy.  Just because he didn't return after hearing she was not a church-
goer doesn't mean that that was the reason for his actions.  There are 
thousands of circumstances that could have hindered his return, that have 
nothing to do with her church affilitation or lack thereof.

I would appreciate a follow-up if you hear more about what happened.

Bill (American by birth, Southern by the Grace of God!) Chapman

--
Bill Chapman <BillC@Housing.MSState.edu>   (601) 325-2042
Computing Consultant <wcc1@Msstate.bitnet> P.O. Box 1262
Dept. of Housing & Residence Life          Mississippi State, MS  39762
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:26:59 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

With regards to this:

For the word of God is living and active.  Sharper than any double-edged sword,
 it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;  it judges
 the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  -- Heb 4:12

I still ask how can this argument count since over half the Bible as we
know it wasn't written or accepted as Scripture at the time
Hebrews was written?

Jason
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:33:38 EDT
From:         DDAVIDSON@CBACC.CBA.UGA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Benny Hinn
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD@uga.cc.uga.edu

Mark or Ron,
  Could either one of you show me in the Bible where before Adam
sinned that he could not fly, because remember God created him after
himself? Food for through, will we not be able to fly when the
rapture takes place if we go in the rapture.

a servant of Christ,
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Dennis Davidson             |                                   |
 | ddavidson@cbacc.cba.uga.edu |                                   |
 | University of Georgia       |                                   |
 | 706-542-3821                |                                   |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:59:43 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?
              psyrobtw@UBVMSB.CC.BUFFALO.EDU

On 08/13/92 at 03:14:00 Robert Weiss said:
>In article <CHRISTIA%92081210210431@ASUACAD.BITNET>, ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET
>(Madge McBurney) writes...

>>Earnest, please do not do this.  I am trying very hard to keep the
>>cross-posting from NetNews to Christia to a minimum.  Please respond
>>privately if anyone wishes more information.


>Madge,

>    Have you considered taking Christia off of Netnews?

Wouldn't there be alot less chance for young people to come in. When
I can't take the volume or topic, I resort to setting "nomail" and then
come in through netnews when I have time.
> en agape,
> Bob
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:12:23 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mary & Colour Blue
              13 Aug 1992 16:58:00 GMT from
              <Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK>

On Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:58:00 GMT <Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK> said:
< text deleted>
>
>It is interesting to note that one of the most common colours these
>days is blue and so people forget this angle.  I wonder what we'd used
>today to show rarity and value when illustrating BVM

To me, seeing Mary depicted with purity and modesty makes her
quite rare and unique in our society.

Elizabeth
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:55:13 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Something more on Revelation

>Also (a general comment), remember that Rev was written under the
>inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Therefore, I'm not sure whether it
>really matters when it was written, or what John was thinking when he
>wrote it, or what Christians of that time would have understood
>concerning it, etc.  God put into it that truth which He wanted to
>teach.

There is still a problem since not everyone believes that the
Revelation of John was 1) written by John the Beloved or 2)
inspired by the Holy Spirit.

This doesn't mean that the Revelation isn't meaningful or is
worthless, but it does mean that interpretation and application
to daily life takes a different approach.

Jason
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:23:11 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      The Blessed Virgin Mary (15 August)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

MARY, THE VIRGIN MOTHER OF OUR LORD (15 AUGUST)

The New Testament records several incidents from the life of the
Virgin:  her betrothal to Joseph, the Annunciation by the angel
Gabriel that she was to bear the Messiah, her Visitation to
Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, the Nativity of our Lord,
the visits of the shepherds and the magi, the Presentation of the
infant Jesus in the Temple at the age of forty days, the flight into
Egypt, the Passover visit to the Temple when Jesus was twelve, the
wedding at Cana in Galilee and the performance of her Son's first
miracle at her intercession, her presence at the foot of the Cross,
and her presence with the apostles in the upper room after the
Ascension, waiting for the promised Spirit. She is thus seen to be
present at most of the chief events of her Son's life.

Little is known of her life except insofar as it intersects with the
life of her Son, and there is an appropriateness in this. The
Scriptures record her words to the angel Gabriel, to her kinswoman
Elizabeth, to her Son on two occasions. But the only recorded saying
of hers to what may be called ordinary, run-of-the-mill hearers is
her instruction to the servants at the wedding feast, to whom she
says simply, indicating her Son, "Whatever he says to you, do it."
     This we may take to be the summation of her message to the
world. If we listen to her, she will tell us, "Listen to Him. Listen
to my Son. Do what He tells you." When we see her, we see her
pointing to her Son. If our regard for the Blessed Virgin does not
have the immediate effect of turning our attention from her to the
One whom she carried in her womb for nine months and suckled at her
breast, to the Incarnate God, the Word made flesh, then we may be
sure that it is not the kind of regard that she seeks. A right
regard for her will always direct us to Him Who found in her His
first earthly dwelling-place.

READING: Isaiah 61:10-11
 ("I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, who has clothed me with
righteousness, as a bride is decked with rich jewels.")

PSALM 34:1-9
 ("O taste and see how gracious the LORD is; blessed are all they
that put their trust in Him.")

EPISTLE: Galatians 4:4-7
 ("But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son, born of
an earthly mother...that we might by adoption become the offspring
of a Heavenly Father.")

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 1:46-55
 (And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the LORD...for the Mighty One
has done great things for me...as he promised to Abraham and his
seed forever.")
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:13:24 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Netnews Statistics
              13 Aug 1992 17:17:02 GMT from <kilroy@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Darren, are you *SURE*?

I didn't realize I was that unusual.  I think I'll shut up for a while.
Thing is, though, if you notice, a *lot* of the postings I send out are
requested responses from people asking me what I think (especially
on the politics list--over there I seem to be the resident fundamentalist
nutcase.)  Some of them I'd just as soon not answer, but when I don't,
somebody generally starts sending out postings demanding that I do.

So, sorry.

You know the saying:  there's no zealot like a convert.  Being a recent
convert to Christianity, conservative politics, and computer mail,
I may be going overboard.

Later, all.  BTW, the Bible Study *should* (this is a qualified should,
by the way) be ready to start by the end of September.  Unless I can't
pay my phone bill this month.  (My sister lives in Oregon, and Mark is
in Pennsylvania, and neither of them has net access.  So....things get
expensive.  But MCI *assures* me that this is about to change.  Right.)

Love INC,
         --Kerry
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Living Revelation Today
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:42:51 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <920819.102929.SAT.FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET> FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran) writes:
>asking?  The Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Churches believed then
>and I assume they believe now that Christ still speaks directly through the
>Church.  If they believe(d) this to be the case, who finally figured out thru
>the Scriptures the Church had canonized, and logic, that they were wrong and
>direct revelation was out?  Who and when?

   Zane, the Catholic Church teaches that that public revelation ended
with the Apostles.  However, the Holy Spirit still guides the Church.
Although this is not in the form of new revelation, the Holy Spirit does
prevent the Church as a whole from teaching any error on faith or morals.
Private revelation has not necessarily ended, but no Catholic is obligated
to accept someone else's private revelation.  For example, the appearances
of the Virgin Mary at Fatima are approved by the Catholic Church, but no
one is obligated to believe them.  Such revelations are approved only if
they do not contradict what is already part of the Faith.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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