HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rymon@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Ron Rymon)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: what DOES get one a job? (was Bleak news from the academic job market)
Date: 8 Nov 92 03:07:11 GMT


 It seems that several people participating in this thread have been (or
are) on search committees. I would like to solicit your opinion about what
gets one a RESEARCH position in a TOP institution (academia or otherwise):

 1. How important was it for them/their work being PREVIOUSLY known to
    current members?

 2. What was the role of their ADVISOR?

 3. What was the role of their REFERENCE letters/calls? 

 4. What was the role of the number and quality of their PUBLICATIONS?

 5. What was the role of the extent and importance of their RESEARCH?
    (independent of whether it was published; another words was it read
     by anyone?)

 Also, what of the above would be enough to get an INTERVIEW?

 Thanks a lot,

-Ron
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer and Information Science               Tel. (215) 898-0326 (office)
University of Pennsylvania                          (215) 626-0794 (home)
Suite C, Rm 419, 3401 Walnut St, Phila, PA 19104    (215) 898-0587 (fax)
From: clements@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:46:02 GMT
Followup-To: sci.research.careers
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

[much depressing discussion about the academic job market in the USA]

I must say that things do sound bleak over there, but I have a point to make
which may suggest that the statistics are misleading.

When you apply for a position in the USA do you make sure that that position is
well suited to your own skills and experience or are you so desperate that an
application is fired off for every post you see?

My own (limited) experience at job hunting in the UK (I'm on my first postdoc
at the moment, currently applying for a second one) is that one should target
your applications. I seem to have done this woth some degree of success. In my
first round of applications I applied for 4 posts, all selected to be relevant
to my experience and research interests, got interviews for all 4, and was
hired on the third (the fourth was at ESA and it took them 6 months to
process the application and decide to interview me. That position (2 years on)
is still being advertised and with their hiring practices no surprise!).

This seems to be the application pattern in Europe... You apply to do stuff you
know at places you know (or have had some contact with) with people you know
(at least vaguely). This may smack of some network, but it does work. An
employer who gets 500 applications from people who don't seem to have read the
advert, so they get particle physicists applying for condensed matter reserach
is not going to be impressed and will fall back on other ways of selecting
applicants.

So, my questio again... Are you trying to target your applications, and if not,
why not?

Best of luck with the jobs,

		Dave



-- 
================================================================================
Dave Clements, Oxford University Astrophysics Department
================================================================================
clements @ uk.ac.ox.vax			|  Umberto Eco is the *real* Comte de
dlc      @ uk.ac.ox.astro		|           Saint Germain...
================================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: yjj@neptune.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang)
Subject: Electronic Information from NSF?
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 03:41:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: neptune.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Does anyone know how to access NSF information site via
Internet?  I know it provides information service through
email, ftp and telnet.

Thanks.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: vere@netcom.com (Steven Vere)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Summary: OK, 15
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 18:55:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.074516.11474@linus.mitre.org>, crawford@boole.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:
> In article <1992Nov7.030205.7095@netcom.com> vere@netcom.com (Steven Vere) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov6.103301.3045@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:

> >>I don't know why anyone would want to be in academia anyway... can't you
> >>get research positions in industry . . .?
> >
> >   No!  There aren't any!  Computer science research openings in
> >industry have dried up.  Research has gone out of fashion with Wall
> >Street and corporate America, because it does not pay off quickly
> >enough. 
> [...]
> >   So, Dr. Tolman, let's see a posting of all those industrial
> >research labs you know about that have openings for computer science
> >PhDs.  A list of the 20 or 30 labs with the largest number of current
> >openings would be sufficient.  We would like to check the data on
> >which your beliefs are based.
> 
> I see.  So to refute his claim, he has to provide gobs of counterexamples?

> | Randy Crawford        crawford@mitre.org        The MITRE Corporation
> |                                                 7525 Colshire Dr., MS Z421
> | N=1 -> P=NP           703 883-7940              McLean, VA  22102

   OK, Tolman is probably a busy man.  He has a job.  I'll settle for
15 labs.  All he has to do is post the names and locations, e.g. ADS,
Mountain View, CA.  I'll phone the HR departments or lab managers,
verify the openings, try to quantify the number of positions currently
open in each lab, and then post a summary of the results.  Fair
enough?  We're all scientists here.  Let's verify Tolman's hypothesis
that there are lots of industrial research positions out there for
computer science PhDs, and put an end to all this whining about lack
of jobs.  After all, horror stories can scare off the students, and
the last thing the CS faculty needs is a decline in department enrollments.
-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __  
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  | 
                                                                     
  Steven Vere                   Cold War Surplus Computer Scientist
  Boulder Creek, California                         vere@netcom.com  
     * Artificial Intelligence Research and Seasoned Firewood *
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __  
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  | 
_____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:09:36 GMT

In article <BxL56L.36r@news.cso.uiuc.edu> frenkel@stcst1.mrl.uiuc.edu (David Frenkel) writes:
>
>   People used to go for PhD's in what they liked even during
>   Great Depression, and not all were rich.
>   People still go into arts, acting, music, anthropology,
>   writing, and the like, because they love it -- despite
>   high chances of failure.
>   Some of them are financially independent, many are not.
>
>-- 
>David Frenkel                        | e-mail:   frenkel@stcst1.mrl.uiuc.edu 
>Department of Physics,               | 
>University of Illinois at            |
>Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL, USA    |

Science is different.  The government puts a lot of money into research
and that money goes to pay for graduate students at a much higher ratio
than it goes to permanent positions.  The government has no business 
paying to produce PHDs that it chooses not to employ later.  There is
in effect inducements to become a graduate student and there is much
active recruitment in science.  I make 14k a year.  How many in music
get that?  In science, people are in effect bribed to get into a field
where, after they graduate and aren't cheap anymore, are uneeded.  
In the fields you mention students are on their own and there is no 
active efforts to recruit "cheap labor".  What is happening in science
education in this country is exploitation pure and simple.  And most
students are too ethusiastic in the early phases to realize it and even
deny it vehemently.  But, just because you CAN exploit someone doesn't
make it right. 

Mike
From: watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Keywords: Momma, don't let your babies grow up to be scientists...
Date: 13 Nov 92 20:51:00 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:

>Let me suggest that when Clinton spends $500 million of his $7.6 billion
>additional hi-tech money on "information technologies" and "artificial
>intelligence" that this situation may change somewhat. Besides, what you
>said is only true if you take the really strict defininition of Computer
>Science and don't include things like architectures and VLSI.

>Jason W. Solinsky

I also think that part of the problem is our fault. 

Why don't 50% of us start our own high-tech companies and make
a few million?

Suppose 10% of us actually succeed. They are millionaires and
have nothing to worry about.
The other 40% that tried and failed -- so what. A good experience,
and better than sending off 100 resumes and getting no replies.

That successful 10% can probably hire another 30% for 
future development.

And the last 60% would at least have a lot better chance of
finding an academic position, since they wouldn't have to
compete against the ones that went into industry. They would
have better chances for funding, either directly from the 
companies, or from the government, which would now be 
convinced of the importance of these technologies to
the economy.

-Larry Watanabe watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hannegan@hyperion.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bryan Hannegan)
Subject: NSF Info Access via STIS
Organization: Code 916, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:52:13 GMT

My apologies to all those who attempted access on stis.nsf.gov via my last
posting. The login name used is "public". This will get you to the access
menu of TOPIC that I described. Sorry for all the confusion.

Further questions may be directed at me.

Bryan Hannegan
Department of Geosciences, University of CA, Irvine
hannegan@halo.ps.uci.edu

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: sbanerj@eos.ncsu.edu (SANJEEV  BANERJIA)
Subject: Re: Bleak news from the academic job market
Originator: sbanerj@c00750-400wi.eos.ncsu.edu
Keywords: Momma, don't let your babies grow up to be scientists...
Reply-To: Sanjeev Banerjia
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:38:25 GMT


In article <Nov.6.11.09.52.1992.17578@cadenza.rutgers.edu>, masticol@cadenza.
rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:
>
>I got a piece of mail from the computer science department of an Ivy
>League school the other day. The writer dropped a hint that there were
>400 applications for one Assistant Professor position. (Name of the
>school withheld to protect the sender.)
>
>At last count there are, perhaps, twenty or thirty open positions in
>the US and Canada at that level. Ergo, at least a 1000% oversupply.
>
>At this point, I would NOT advise anyone to get a Ph.D. in computer
>science, if they were doing it to work in academia. If you're planning
>to do it, I'd say make other plans. Unless you're a superstar, you
>probably don't have a chance.

From what I've heard about other schools, this isn't unusual at all.  Here at
NCSU, we stopped taking applications after we received 300+ for a CS asst./
assoc. prof position.  I heard that UNC received well over 700 for a position
advertised about a year ago.  (BTW, my dept's cut from the first 300 resumes
was 6 i.e only 6 out of the 300+ applicants were invited to campus).

There's a very interesting article in the latest CACM on the glut of people
earning Phd's in CS these days.  It's worth taking a look at if you're finishing
your BS and are considering continuing on for a Phd.

Sanjeev
From: etaylor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Euan R. Taylor)
Subject: resource management questions
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:39:53 GMT

Dear all,
I am expecting to start a masters course in Resource Management next
autumn. I would like to hear from anyone who has done this type of degree,
what kind of jobs did you go into after you finished the programme? 
how much did you feel you learned from it?
how interested were prospective employers in the type of research project
you did ?
finally, what course areas do you think you actually used when you were out
in the real world?
Ideas, advice, comments all welcome
ta
Euan
From: vicki@mathcs.emory.edu (Vicki Powers)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Academic jobs
Date: 10 Nov 1992 14:42:47 -0500
Organization: Emory University, Dept of Math and CS
NNTP-Posting-Host: emory.mathcs.emory.edu

In article <1992Nov10.155058.16190@galois.mit.edu>, lenivch@levinson.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki) writes:
> In article <1992Nov9.155531.24371@mp.cs.niu.edu> rusin@mp.cs.niu.edu (David Rusin) writes:
> >Read the Notices of the American Mathematical Society annual report on
> >the state of the job market. Nov '92 issue, just out, has the latest data.
> >Quote from p 1029: "... among those [1991-2 new PhD's] whose employment status
> >is known [about 80%] 12.7% are unemployed."
> 
> Having graduated with a math Ph.D. one year ago, I suspect things are actually 
> worse than that. For one thing, those who can't find jobs try to postpone 
> graduation for as long as possible (with universities running budget deficits,
> this is becoming harder to do). Secondly, this report provides no data on
> how many Ph.D.'s found employment outside of the United States in the past
> and I strongly suspect this number is up, because for most foreigners  finding
> a job in their home country is a contingency plan, which they implement after
> having failed in US job search. It's kind of fishy to count as employed those 
> who had to go abroad because they couldn't find jobs in the USA. Thirdly, this
> report says nothing about people who are one or two years past their Ph.D.,
> and this is where things get really tough, because the competition for 
> tenure-track positions is cutthroat.
> 
> Things now border on insanity. Every four year college you haven't even
> heard of gets at least 600 applications. Very many people find one year 
> postions and have to begin a new job search almost on the day they begin
> employment (well, in November...).


Another problem is that many people who got jobs only got one year jobs and
will be looking again this year.  Plus all those people who got two year jobs
two years ago, etc.  But I question the comment about people going back to
their home countries, isn't it true that the job market outside of the U.S. is
even worse?  For example in Europe it is almost impossible to get an academic
job, except  in France (last I heard there are lots of teaching jobs
outside of Paris) and perhaps Spain. 

This year we are advertising two tenure-track positions (in mathematics) and
we expect and are preparing ourselves for 800-1000 applications.  I'm sure
glad I finished in 1985 and not recently!!!!


   
  Vicki




-- 
Vicki  Powers       |  When a student reads in a math book that there are no
Emory University    |  absolutes, suddenly every value he's been taught is
Dept of Math and CS |  destroyed.  And the next thing you know, the student
Atlanta, GA 30322   |  turns to crime and drugs. - Mel Gabler
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: edgar@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Gerald Edgar)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Academic jobs
Date: 9 Nov 1992 10:54:06 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.
NNTP-Posting-Host: function.mps.ohio-state.edu


Mathematics: employment of new PhDs in the US.

The current (November) issue of the Notices of the American Mathematical
Society contains the "First Report" of this year's employment survey.
Read the whole thing if you are interested.  Here are a few
figures:  U.S. institutions awarded 1,050 doctorates in the mathematical
sciences during 91-92.  [430 of these were U.S. citizens]  As of
September, 1992, 12.7 percent were still unemployed.  Of the new PhDs employed,
approximately:

175 were employed at PhD-granting institutions,
300 at other U.S. academic institutions
150 at foreign academic institutions
150 at non-academic institutions [government, business, etc]

Median starting salary of new doctorates reporting teaching: $34,000 for men
and $34,900 for women.
To: burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu
Subject: Re: Academic jobs
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.
Cc: 
Bcc: 

To: burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu
Subject: Re: Academic jobs
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.
Cc: 
Bcc: 


Mathematics: employment of new PhDs in the US.

The current (November) issue of the Notices of the American Mathematical
Society contains the "First Report" of this year's employment survey.
Read the whole thing if you are interested.  Here are a few
figures:  U.S. institutions awarded 1,050 doctorates in the mathematical
sciences during 91-92.  [430 of these were U.S. citizens]  As of
September, 1992, 12.7 percent were still unemployed.  Of the new PhDs employed,
approximately:

175 were employed at PhD-granting institutions,
300 at other U.S. academic institutions
150 at foreign academic institutions
150 at non-academic institutions [government, business, etc]

Median starting salary of new doctorates reporting teaching: $34,000 for men
and $34,900 for women.

-- 
  Gerald A. Edgar                Internet:  edgar@mps.ohio-state.edu
  Department of Mathematics      Bitnet:    EDGAR@OHSTPY
  The Ohio State University      telephone: 614-292-0395 (Office)
  Columbus, OH 43210             -292-4975 (Math. Dept.) -292-1479 (Dept. Fax)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: etaylor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Euan R. Taylor)
Subject: Natural Res. Mngmnt info
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:52:32 GMT


Dear all,
I am expecting to start a masters course in (Natural) Resource Management next
autumn, (in British Columbia). I would like to hear from anyone who has done
this type of degree,
what kind of jobs did you go into after you finished the programme? 
hhow much did you feel you learned from it?
how interested were prospective employers in the type of research project
you did, or in your pre-masters background ?
finally, what course areas do you think you actually used when you were out
in the real world?
Ideas, advice, comments all welcome
ta
Euan


etaylor@ccu.umanitoba.ca



Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hannegan@hyperion.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bryan Hannegan)
Subject: Re: Electronic Information from NSF?
Organization: Code 916, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:53:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.034115.7135@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> yjj@neptune.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang) writes:
>Does anyone know how to access NSF information site via
>Internet?  I know it provides information service through
>email, ftp and telnet.
>
>Thanks.

It's very simple. Telnet to stis.nsf.gov and use the TOPIC server they have
there. All you'll need to do first time through is to fill out a little form
with your name and affiliation.

Bryan Hannegan
hannegan@halo.ps.uci.edu
Dept. of Geosciences, University of California, Irvine
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mkh@pacific.uucp (michael hamilton)
Subject: sorry about that.
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 20:53:11 GMT

    Sorry about posting the second copy of the list (although it did have
a couple of extra days of jobs in there).  Our news server has been
very flaky of late, and I didn't think the first one had gone out.
My apologies to anyone that was forced to sit through 2000 lines
of oceanography job posts twice.

	mike

----
michael hamilton
mkh@pacific.jpl.nasa.gov / Oceanography from Space

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: deutsch@euclid.math.colostate.edu (jesse deutsch)
Subject: Re: Concordia
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:43:22 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins

The recent Maclean's had an article about the Fabrikant case
that might be of interest to some netters out there.  It is
in the November 9th issue starting on page 52.  Hopefully it
sheds some light on the situation.

Sincerely,
Jesse Deutsch

#include standard disclaimer

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: burtt@comet.nscl.msu.edu (BRIAN BURTT)
Subject: Academic jobs
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NSCL Michigan State University
Date:  6 Nov 1992 23:50 EDT  


	I've followed the posting on academic job prospects for CS
Ph.D.s.  Can I have some experts comment on same for physics (which
I hear is _really_ bad) and mathematics?  Interested in all levels:
university, liberal arts college, etc.

--Brian Burtt
Undergraduate major in physics and mathematics
Michigan State University
burtt@lynch.nscl.msu.edu
From: masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Spiros, let's end this flame war now.
Keywords: cease fire
Date: 10 Nov 92 02:19:05 GMT
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Listen Spiros, you've made your choices and I've made mine. You walked
out on academia after ten years; I walked out on industry after nine.
We both have to justify our decisions somehow.

And now we're both trying to justify walking out by slamming each
others' chosen profession. Do the words "cognitive dissonance" strike
a familiar note?

But, like all gross generalizations, it's wrong and unfair. Whether
they're about academia or industry. There are some lazy slobs and some
stuffed shirts in both places. There are some fine, creative,
hard-working people in both places. And neither place is for
everybody.

And the truth is that industry needs some blue-sky research and
academia needs some real-world motivation. So both sides need each
other.

But academia is better because you get to have longer .sigs!

      _/_/_/    _/_/_/_/    _/        _/  Stephen P. Masticola          .^.
    _/         _/     _/   _/_/    _/_/  ProLangs  Research  Group     /   7
   _/         _/     _/   _/ _/  _/ _/  Dept. of Computer Science     (   C 
    _/_/     _/_/_/_/    _/  _/_/  _/  Rutgers University              \   `J
       _/   _/          _/   _/   _/  Hill Center, Busch Campus        ,>   /
      _/   _/          _/        _/  New Brunswick,  NJ  08904        (    //
_/_/_/    _/          _/        _/  masticol @ cs.rutgers.edu 	       \  //
                                   Voice:   (908) 932 - 4070 		`U   
                                  Fax:     (908) 932 - 0537              '
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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