From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: To all who read a.s.a.r. 
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Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 01:43:03 GMT

bu850@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Karla M. Alwan) writes:

: In a previous article, erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) says:
: 
: >bu850@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Karla M. Alwan) writes:
: >: this.  Furthermore, I think when most people tease, it usually
: >: is an emotional need that somehow needs to be fullfilled.  Sex
: >
: >Yes, but how many people realize this, especially men?
: 
: Maybe it's about time they did.  Maybe that would cut down on date
: rape and child abuse and violent rape --- if people learnt
: what it means when a person is flirtatios.  Anyone
: from birth to death has a right to say no, even if they flirt,
: even if they lead anyone on.  I don't care how old you are.
: And this is something EVERYONE needs to learn.

Oh, AGREED!  To be sure!  The only problem is trying to change what has
become "societal norms".  Sick thinking, IMHO, but a norm, nonetheless... :(

: >: I think it is very appropriate to blame someone that has
: >: abused you.  It is irrelevant whether or not they were abused.
: >: Putting the blame on them, instead of yourself, is a very big,
: >: and important step.
: >
: >But that's only the first step.  Eventually, forgiveness of the perp is
: >going to be necessary for you to complete your healing.  Imagine how
: >skewed your life would be (or perhaps already is) if you carry around
: >all this emotional baggage.  To put it another way, you are trading one
: >set of emotional baggage (guilt, etc.) for another (hate for the perp).
: >Hate may keep you warm at night, but it will eventually consume you. :(
: 
: I don't see why this is necessarily true.  I can't
: quote exact reasons (until I go home and look some up) but according
: to a lot of intelligent people (including courage to heal) 
: forgiveness is not necessary...

I think I backed myself into a corner here with a bit of bad wording.
Allow me to rephrase: I believe that you will eventually forgive your
perp - either here, in this life, or after you pass over into spirit and are
better able to see the "big picture".  This is *not* to imply that you are
"wrong" in holding your view that you will never forgive - just my belief that
you will.

: >: IMHO, forgiveness is not necessary.  Anger can be a very empowering 
: >: thing.  I have no intention of forgiving the man that raped me.
: >: If it happens, it happens, but I don't intend to try for it.
: >: The anger I feel for him does not eat me up inside, it empowers
: >: me.  It makes me feel like I am worth it.  I deserve to get angry.
: >
: >You base your self-esteem on anger?  Not a good idea, IMHO.  You "deserve"
: >to get angry?  Hmmm...certainly you have that right -- we all do, but the
: >use of the word "deserve" rings alarm bells in my head.  Are you saying that
: >you "deserve" to get angry because that outlet had been denied you earlier?
: 
: No, I don't base my self-esteem on anger.  I base my anger
: on self-esteem.  The fact that I feel good about myself, and the fact
: that I feel I am a worthwhile person gives me the ability to get angry
: when need be.

Ah!  I see.  Thanks for clarifying that point.

: >For most of my childhood, if I got angry, I was not allowed to express that.
: >I was told, "you'd better scratch your mad spot and get glad!"  It took me
: >a long time to figure out the idea of "appropriate anger".
: 
: Ohhh...  be too.  I was basically told (not in so many words, but...)
: that I was a horrible, terrible person if I got angry.  Doesn't
: matter if someone beat me upside the head, I was not allowed to
: be angry.  My mother didn't think I was worth enough to get angry 
: about.  That is why I DESERVE to be angry.  It WAS denied me.
: I DESERVE to be cared about enough for someone (including
: me) to get angry over someone hurting me.

And you *should* be angry if someone hurts you!  I still don't understand the
word "deserve" here, but maybe it's because it's late, and I'm tired, and
I have a headache, and I've had an incredibly bad day :(

: >: Someone did something terrible to me, and I deserve to be 
: >: angry.  Anger is a very healing thing.  Even if one possess
: >: anger for all of their life, it is healing...  IMHO, when
: >
: >I doubt it.  Anger can be a tool for transformation, giving you the will
: >(and the courage) to make needed change, but when it's task is done, why
: >not let it go?  I think you will see the wisdom of this after a while.
: 
: All I am saying is that you shouldn't have to let it go.  If you
: are ready and willing to let it go, and it has done you all
: the good it can, then fine, let it go.  There is no point in keeping
: it inside you to the point that it becomes destructive.  But for
: some people, I think they can have their anger and use it in an
: enpowering way.  For some people they need to let it go.  But why
: ask someone to let go of their anger before they are ready?  Even
: if they will never be ready...  I agree with you that it can become
: destructive...  but I do not thnk that is always the case.  And I
: don't think people should be ashamed of their anger, and asked to
: diminish it as soon as possible.  For some people, it can last a 
: lifetime, and still be healthy, IMHO.

Sorry.  You will let it go when you are ready to let it go.  Use that anger
to motivate positive change - then it may be time for you to let go of
that anger.  But it's your decision.  Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not
trying to imply that you *have* to do *anything*.  I'm just trying to give you
a different perspective - something to chew on.  I'm not insisting that I'm
right.

: >For a first step, certainly.  But as you go through your healing, you may
: >come to find that there is no one to blame for anything.
: 
: Ummmm...  Yes it is an important first step.  And maybe it
: becomes useless after a certain point.  But you could never convince
: me that the man that raped me is not to blame for what he did.

Nor would I try.  That is something that you will decide for yourself.
No one died and made me God, Karla.  I have enough trouble convincing myself
that the things I do are right - let alone try and convince anyone *else* :)

: I could care a less about what may or may not have happend to him.
: Granted I may not need to think about who is to blame...  I may be
: secure enough with myself to not need that validation.  But it
: won't change the fact that he was to blame...

I'm not debating that with you -- I'm just saying that perhaps, given time
and space, you may have a less angry outlook on the whole thing.  Then
again, perhaps not.  Like I said before, I'm just trying to play "devil's
advocate" here - to show you things in a different light than you may have
seen them before.

Health, love and healing to you!
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG		erc@apple.com	<-- preferred email address!

801/      "This is the final task I will ever give you, and  it  goes
269-      on  forever.   Act  happy,  feel happy, be happy, without a
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery