From: alper@sushi.psych.nwu.edu (Theodore M. Alper)
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:16:28 GMT

In article <140037.2AB2BFAE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>
> [argument about the acceptability of medical circumcision and the 
>  Zipporah/bridegroom of blood story>:

And yet, note that the generation in the desert were uncircumcised
(until Joshua circumcised them as adults) -- so would you conclude
that circumcision may be postponed until well after the eighth day?
I mean if you only accept the letter (in english translation) of the
commandment and then supplement that by the behavior of characters
in the Bible and their treatment as evidence for acceptable behavior,
how does that story fit in?

In any case, many of the stories in Tanach concern characters behaving in
ways one wouldn't seek to emulate. Because Jacob lies to receive his father's
blessing and yet becomes a patriarch doesn't necessarily mean that this
is acceptable behavior. Again, the question (for me) is just how matters of 
law are settled by MJs. Using analogy to Biblical events is an awfully 
subjective process.

 TMA> What justification do you have for
 TMA> saying no more than a medical circumcision is required?
 BC> What justification do you have for saying that more than a medical
 BC> circumcision is needed?

*I* never said more is required -- I merely wanted to know how
you came to your decision. Since the big question generally is "what
does the Lord want us to do?" and Torah by itself often leads to 
ambiguous answers AND I would imagine that MJs are unable to accept
the authority of the standard Jewish sources [though I did read your next
paragraph] which might otherwise serve as clues to interpretation, I wonder 
how they make their judgements.

Do they use tefillim? Exodus 13:9 says (in reference to Passover, but
never mind -- and I know there are three other similar passages): "this 
shall serve you as a sign on your hand and a reminder between your eyes, 
and the words of the Torah may be in your mouth"... thus, tefillim, though 
some might think the phrase is figurative. But then, if it isn't, why not 
also have a third box of written words in your mouth? (this is a bit 
facetious, but the question of how one knows what to do is a serious one)

 TMA> 2) In any case, I'm more interested in the methods by which MJs
 TMA> come to decisions on these matters. From your response, I gather
 TMA> you read and interpret Torah freehand, each man his own Rabbi...
 BC> A variety of ways.  We don't just limit ourselves to the opinions
 BC> of the sages - thought that is one means.  Formost is what the
 BC> Ruach of HaShem has revealed from His Word.  That has to agree
 BC> with the established doctrines of the Written Word; and that is a
 BC> given amongst the majority opinion of the Messianic leadership;
 BC> etc..  So, there are many checks and balances from that way.
 BC> There are also ancient Messianic Writings; and of course, the
 BC> Rabbinic writings which we do not totally throw out...

What do you do when conflicts occur, most glaringly between Tanach
and New Testament? How do you decide which "Rabbinic writings" to
keep and which to toss out? Do you keep the divinity of Jesus first and
make everything else conform to that or do you keep the necessity of
keeping the terms of the covenant first? 

 TMA> there seem to be plenty of other commandments throughout Torah.
 BC> Of course there is [sic], 613.  I was refering to the one Mitzvah of
 BC> Brit Millah - Circumcise on the 8th day.  The rest is halachah.

So you got 613, too, eh?  How did you come by that number? Did you
count them yourself? Here you dismiss halacha, but you seem to be relying
on it for much of your claim to be authentically Jewish. Again, I'm
not certain this is indefensible, but I'm curious to hear the defense.

Ted Alper