HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: FAA WAVERS?
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:28:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr15.144411.22899@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, rbs@cyclops.micr.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Sisk) writes:
> Recently I heard that the FAA has stopped granting wavers until some
> education process is in place (ie. the individual appling for the waver
> has attended an FAA course (Safety?)).  I was told that the current process
> was halted as a result of a violation by some Tripoli prefecture out west
> (ie. they flew without a waver).  Does anyone have any information about
> this RUMOR? 

I heard the following rumors:

FAA shut down a Hartsel launch because they set up the range on the
wrong side of the field.  When they got there, the side of the field
that they said they would be flying from was snowed in, so they said
"what the hell" and set up the rangehead somewhere else.  The FAA
showed up and they were pissed -- the range was right under a critical
flight corridor.  They got shut down.

Second, the FAA is up somebody's butt because of "waiver irregularities"
at some past Lucerne launches.  This may or may not be related to the
claim that old copies of waivers taken out for those launches by Jerry
Irvine show altitude limits much stricter than the limits Jerry tols
everybody they had been granted.

I have only heard this from one person, so don't consider it verified.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: I may change from fuse
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:45:12 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr13.005309.8628@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> Also for all of you insightful lawyers out there who have given me hell
> through email about wanting to join the NAR wen I stated openly that I used
> fuse I pose this question...

They're not thinking straight.  We'd rather have you in the association
to get you educated and help you have more fun.  Some of our safest modelers 
today are "ex-bombers" who "saw the light."
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billw@regal.cisco.com (William )
Subject: Re: Igniters
Organization: cisco Systems, Inc.
	<2154@transfer.stratus.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 09:23:55 GMT

    > I'll try it out,as for the picture wire,is it all nichrome?

    All if it that I've ever seen.

Actually, I think picture wire is made from iron or steel.  It still works
fine for ignitors - the main advantages of real nichrome is in its mechanical
properties, which maybe important if you are making things like foam cutters
or wire-wound resistors that you want to last longer than a few seconds.

BillW
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Prices
Date: 15 Apr 92 02:47:46 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Distribution: na
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <2152@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>> Heck, I see the cost for some of the rockets that are still around costing 5
>> or 6 times what they used to cost. Isn't that much higher than inflation
>> would indicate?
>
>Heck, most of the NOSE CONES cost more than what entire kits used to cost.
>
>About 10 years ago, Dan Winings needed a bunch of NC5 nose cones for
>international models.  They cost $1.50 each!  Instead, he bought 30
>Mosquito kits, for which he only had to pay 99c each, and threw the 
>rest of the kit away...

Well, I don't have the CPI figures in front of me, just now, but
rocket kit prices don't seem *that* far out of line with the rest
of stuff. Inflation took a big jump in the mid '70s, but it seems 
me that 4x is about right since the late '60s (e.g. gasoline from
$0.30/gal to $1.20).

Still, there are areas (such as components) where absolute *gouging*
is going on. As C.D's story illustrates, the companies are making a
killing on component prices. I know that inventorying/picking/mailing
items on a onesy-twosy basis is expensive, but get real! When ordering
the parts for my Titan model, I paid over $30 for some paper tubes,
paper disks and metal hooks! I'm sure the manufacturing costs of
a BT-50 tube is around 2 to 3 cents, but they sell it for $2.40 plus
P&H. That's one HELL of a markup (1,000%)! And don't try to tell me
that there are that many layers of distribution between the manufacturer
and the big E for the volume they use.

I think Quest will take a big bite out of this market with their
pricing strategy (more on this after I finish my first Q-kit)

- Jack


=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||             Dr. Suess, Jim Irwin, Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov        ||
||                      All in one year, [sigh] :-(                        ||
=============================================================================
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Rocket into science class
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:16:45 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr17.014953.12298@uva386.schools.virginia.edu>, wayne@uva386.schools.virginia.edu (Tony Wayne) writes:
>            In the summer I teach a rocket into science class
> for gifted 7th and 8th graders...

> Earlier this spring I asked this group about making recovery
> wadding.  If I can think of a safe way of doing this, I might
> devise a small unit on recovery wadding manufacture.  

Wadding manufacture is very safe, it's just messy.  All the salts
involved are very benign.  The soggy toilet paper can get disgusting!

> Do any of you have any
> other ideas?  Be as specific as you can -It helps me :)

If you tell me where you are in Virginia, I may be able to get you in
touch with a local NAR Section whose brains you can pick further.
There's one in Richmond and one in Springfield, plus an independent
guru out in Bedford.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Scratch-built Rockets
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:01:17 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

I've been toying with the idea of scratch-building some models, and I was
intrigued by a reference to an article about making your own body tubes.
If anyone would like to sell the magazine with that article, or if they
wouldn't mind posting a few pointers from it.  I presume it simply uses
paper and a wooden dowel as a form, but were there any tricks to it?  Did
it spiral-wind, and if so, how?

In a similar vane ;) has anyone else built a rocket entirely from scratch?
That is, everything but engine.

What sort?  And what nifty tricks did you use?

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: Jim Cook <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Subject: Re: Suitable motor for model
Reply-To: Ray Balister <ray@nmsb.larc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 14:49:21 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.150303.27680@news.larc.nasa.gov> ray@nmsb.larc.nasa.gov
writes:
>I have a rocket that I would like to launch, but, it is quite old.
>The model is the "Photon Disruptor" that Estes put out quite a few years
>ago.  Unfortunately, I no longer have a list of the recommended motors
>for it.  Is there anyone out there that could look in an old catalog
>or may know what the recommended motors are for this model?
>
>E-mail would probably be more suitable since this has limited appeal.
>
>Thanks!
>Ray Balister
>

I happened to think of this before I left the house this morning.  From
a 1976 Estes catalog, a Photon Disruptor takes: 1/2 A6-2, A8-3 (first flight),
A8-5, B4-4, B6-4, or C6-5.  About what you'd expect.

Jim
<J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Fuse
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:48:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: transfer.2068
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr9.174440.8385@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> Why is it that rocket companies like Estes don't promote fuse as a way to
> ignite rocket engines?

Because it's against the law in 50 states.  But that's begging the question,
so read on.

> I've been using it exclusively for over a year now and have had 1 misfire.
> I read in a book that they are dangerous and unreliable.WHat is dangerous about
> them?I see using a stupid electric
> thing 15 feet from the pad as much more dangerous.With a fuse,I can put 6
> inches or so on,have 30 to 40 seconds to
> run and get a good view of the rocket in flight.

And while you're 50 feet away, some kid toddles up to your rocket saying, 
"What's this, mommy?"  And you can't stop it from taking off in his face.

Or nothing happens, and after waiting five minutes, you approach the pad
only to have it take off in YOUR face.

Or the wind blows over your launch pad, and now it's pointed straight at
YOU.  Or at the haymow inside the barn door.  Or at the road.

The point of electrical ignition is that you can STOP the rocket from
taking off whenever you don't want it to take off.

> With an igniter,I have to 
> stand on top of the pad and can't see sh*t.

So add some wire.  Or invite a friend to push the button.

> Igniters also don't work half of the time

Maybe you abuse your igniters.  I don't have that problem.

> and the batteries also die.

Yeah, if you use drugstore batteries.  A motorcycle gel cell, however,
will last a long, long time.  Our club uses a gel-cell the size of three
VHS tapes to launch 120 rockets over six hours, and it comes home at
about 80% charge.

> For 2 bucks,I can get 10 feet of fuse.That's enough for 30 to 40 launches.

And $200-$500 if the wrong person sees you use it.

> For the same amount I can get 6 igniters,1/3 of which will not work.I guess
> I see now why they don't promote fuse,they make a killing selling igniters.

Make your own igniters if you must.  All you need is a cheap roll of
picture-hanging wire, some clear dope, and a ballpoint pen.  A 12V
battery will fire these like nobody's business.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jack@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Jack Kobzeff)
Subject: Re: Vashon and Cold Power
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:06:42 GMT

In article <3436@balrog.ctron.com>, smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith) writes:
> 
>  I recall that
> RP-100 was diflourodichloromethane, and probably not good for the ozone
> layer, among other things, but I'm curious to know what experiences people
> had with these rockets from the dawn of the model rocket industry. 

The times that I tried to fly Vashon rockets, I had mixed success. The main
problem was that the node was held on while the rocket was pressurised, but
when the pressure was released, the nose was free. There was no 'ejection'.
The nose just 'fell' off!!! The break was acually a couple of inches behind
the cone, and the action of separation was supposed to pull the chute out.
Needless to say, this didn't always work perfectly.

> 
> I've been paging through my old Estes and Centuri catalogs.  Remember when you
> could buy a complete kit for $1.50?  The Saturn V model was $16.95.  Estes
> prices nowadays are unnerving...

$1.50?  You used to be able to get a Astron Streak for $.50 !!!

Heck, I see the cost for some of the rockets that are still around costing 5
or 6 times what they used to cost. Isn't that much higher than inflation
would indicate?


Jack Kobzeff     (jack@jato.jpl.nasa.gov)
From: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: energy required to ignite engines
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:26:01 GMT
Reply-To: paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell)
Organization: Taniwha Systems Design, Oakland

In article <1992Apr8.161622.7965@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>: In article <7707@travis.csd.harris.com>, taco@flipper.csd.harris.com (Pablo Fumero) writes:
>: > I remember seeing an article about a person's measurements
>: > on the amount of current needed to set-off several types
>: 
>: According to G. Harry Stine, Chairman of the NFPA Committee on
>: Pyrotechnics, NFPA 1126 (Pyrotechnics in the Performing Arts) sets
>: a safe level of no more than 45 milliamps for testing continuity of
>: ignition devices.  Harry claims that he knows of no ignition device
>: that will go off at that current level (and of course he's very
>: conversant in modern rocketry practice).
>
>Yeah. I wonder if he is still making his own igniters. I wonder if he
>has ever seen an electric match?

Actually I'm tempted to believe him ... I've been doing some experimentation
setting up my flight computer to drive various types of 'low current'
igniters over the past weeks - I've sunk 100mA through both flashbulbs and
electric matches for minutes without any effect (much to my suprise!) in
the end I drive them with:


			 +6V
			  |
			  \
			  /	39 Ohm resistor
			  \
			  /
			  |
			  |----------------------------
			  |			      |
			  |			      |
			  |-----|		      |
				II  Igniter	      |
				II		      |
			  |-----|		      |
			  |			      |
		   -------|			   ------- 1000uF Cap
		 |/	  |			   -------
 lo current    --|	  |			      |
 drive		 |\	  |			      |
	2N2222	   V     |/			      |
		   ------|			      |
			 |\			      |
		2N3055	   V			      |
			   |			      |
			  Gnd			     Gnd

The 39 Ohm resistor limits the current to ~100mA (I share a lightweight
6v camera battery with the CPU and don't want to pull the main power
supply down when starting a motor or firing an ejection charge), the
1000uF cap provides a the extra oomph needed to fire either a flashbulb
or an electric match .... the tacky homebuilt darlington pair isn't really
necessary if what ever you have driving the switch can provide enough current
to switch on the 2N3055 (just pop a resistor in there instead of the 2N2222)


	Paul Campbell
	TRA #1618

-- 
Paul Campbell    UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul     AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P
It's not as well known that 3 days before George Bush puked in the Japanese
Prime Minister's lap our great statesman and diplomat accidently gave the
finger to a whole nation ....
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: More info
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:07:11 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr10.194636.25563@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> What are NAR dues?  Where do I sign up

$25/year if you're 21 and over, $15 if not.  $15 more if you want the
$1-million rocketry liability insurance.  NAR is at POB 177, Altoona
WI 54720, or call 800-262-4872.

> Where do you get hp engines around cleveland or di i have to mail order?

You can't buy HP engines (G's and over) without NAR or Tripoli
certification.  I don't know about local stores in Cleveland, sorry.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Old Estes Catalogs
Date: 15 Apr 92 02:18:43 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <1992Apr13.040335.3998@news.Hawaii.Edu> helen@pulua.hcc.hawaii.edu (Helen Rapozo) writes:
>In article <451@rml.UUCP> jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty) writes:
>>My 1967 version shows the loss 
>>leader "Streak" kit at $0.50 and the newly introduced Saturn 1B at $9.50! 
>>Even at that it was more than twice as expensive than the next most expensive
>>kit, the Gemini-Titan at $4.00. The S1B, BTW, was bigger and more complex 
>>a kit that the later SV.
>>
>************
>Somehow I don't feel as old anymore 8-).  I remember starting to fly model
>rockets in 1970.

Thanks a lot! B-)

Actually my catalogs go back to 1966, but that doesn't have the Saturn in it.

>What's really amazing is that I kept those Model Rocket Flight Data
>Sheets that Estes and Centuri sold to log your flights on.  I think
>one of these days I should enter certain data into a computer and find out
>what was the average number of flights my models had 

What's so amazing? I saved my FDS's, the model instructions and even
the mail order tubes that the engines came in, way back when. Figuring
out the average number of flights shouldn't take much more than a 
hand calculator.
 
>Oh, while writing this note I opened up a box that's been sitting in
>my apartment for years which held the above mention flight data
>sheets (covering a period from 1970 to 1976) plus an Estes 1975
>and 1979 catalog and a Centuri 1972 catalog).  Also the I had
>an acordain file where I kept the plans to the models I built (with
>luck maybe the fins templates are there too).

Good. Maybe you can build some of them now! I had a whole binder full
of stuff that I'd designed, some of which I may actually pick up for 
building.

- Jack


=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||             Dr. Suess, Jim Irwin, Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov        ||
||                      All in one year, [sigh] :-(                        ||
=============================================================================
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Club Meets
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:05:24 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

Does anyone know of any clubs or contacts for clubs in S. New Hampshire or
Northern Mass?  Does anyone know of any meets for clubs in the same area?
Any high-power types in that area?  I had a contact for someone at DEC,
but he don't answer email...

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: More info
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:44:39 GMT

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
: > 
: > According to my North Coast Rocketry catalog, you don't need any permit for
: > a 'G' engine.  Only H and higher.  They resell Aerotech.
: 
: Yeah, well, new news.  Read the posting about the recent NFPA meeting.  The
: Consumer Product Safety Commission says that G's are a BANNED HAZARDOUS
: SUBSTANCE.  AeroTech has asked for an exemption from this, but doesn't have
: it yet.  So as of last week, G's require Tripoli or NAR membership to buy,
: and are effectively Class B.

Yep - I believe that has been the case for some time, but that people were
just not aware of it. Any engine with at total impulse over 80 newton-seconds
is banned. 

People, this is just one more reason to join the NAR and Tripoli. The more
members we have, the more weight we will carry with the various government
agencies that limit what the NFPA committee approve. Join now, if you are
not a member - every person counts.

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Scratch-built Rockets
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:30:06 GMT
Reply-To: jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty)
Organization: Robotic Midwives, Ltd.

In article <3435@balrog.ctron.com> smith@ctron.com writes:
>I've been toying with the idea of scratch-building some models, and I was
>intrigued by a reference to an article about making your own body tubes.
>If anyone would like to sell the magazine with that article, or if they
>wouldn't mind posting a few pointers from it.  

Well, this probably isn't quite what you're looking for, but it
does cover the subject.

Bob Sisk recently forwarded to me a copy of an article from "T-5", the
newsletter of the Huron Valley Rocket Society (I hope I got that right)
describing two research projects into ultra-light rocket construction.

The construction material was drafting vellum, yes the same stuff you
normally use to draw the plans on! With a few stiffeners made from
1/32" rolled balsa and manila folder fins they had an airframe weight
(minus engine and the silvered mylar streamer) of 3.5 grams! This
sort of design philosophy with its highly stressed, highly optomized
components is much closer to the way "real" rockets are built.

The article is in Volume 7, Number 4, but I don't have the address
of HUVARS here (anyone?).

- Jack

=============================================================================
||Jack Hagerty, Robotic Midwives, Ltd.                 jack@rml.com        ||
||Livermore, CA		           NOTE! New, improved address! ^^^        ||
||(510) 455-1143	            (old ones will still work)             ||
||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
||"While your brains may not be so large to look at as those of the Scare- ||
||crow, you are really brighter than he is -- when you are well polished." ||
||    -- Glinda to the Tin Woodman, original edition                       ||
=============================================================================
From: coryc@sequent.com
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: r.m.r FAQ list
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:56:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1992Apr13.165631.4049
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.

In article <454@rml.UUCP> jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty) writes:
>I sent the following to Buzz but it bounced. While editing it to
>try again I realized that this might be a good starting point for
>a group discussion on what should go into the FAQ.
	:
>III) Other sources:
>
>	1) A pointer to Joe Pfeiffer's Calvin archives
>	2) Other sources of scale model data
>	3) A list of computer software available both on Calvin
>	   and from the original authors (e.g. Larry Curcio)

OK, since the FAQ isn't quite in existence yet, can anyone give me a
pointer to someplace besides Calvin that might have rocketry-related
software?  (Calvin is currently down as an FTP site, for an unknown
period.)  

I'm mostly interested in whether there are any design programs available
that can make predictions of flight characterstics based on data such as
frontal area, weight, and thrust.

-coryc


-- 

|    >> Disclaimer: I speak for Sequent only in our hardware manuals <<       |
|Cory R. Carpenter, Tech Writer |"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate    |
|Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. | things."       -- Vice President Dan Quayle |
|    coryc@sequent.com          |                                             |