From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Animal have no rights
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:02:50 GMT

unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:

`>`Scott Wood writes:
`>`>I am not afraid to say it, that I do not believe animals have rights.

`>unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:
`>`You are an animal.  Do you have rights?

`Scott Wood writes:
`>I am a reasoning being.  I can honor rights as well as understand them.
`>Thus I have rights.  Without such a reasoning being walking the face of
`>the earth, this discussion would not even exist.  Thus the concept of
`>rights would not even exist.  I say it again, animals have no rights.

`Do you know that animals are incapable of reasoning?  As was said by the
`French philosopher Montaigne:

`  The defect that hinders communication betwixt them and us, 
`  why may it not be on our part as well as theirs?

`Could your dog be looking at you know and be thinking,"Too bad that human
`can't reason....I have him trained pretty well...."?

Give me a break.  If you have been alive on this earth long enough to learn
right from wronge, long enough to learn how to read and write symbols and
manipulate as well as understand mechanical and electrical devices such as
a computer.  If you have learned to ponder theory and argue about moral,
ethical, and philosophical concepts.  If you have spent all this time
doing all these things in this world and still have not discovered that
there is a difference between you and a dog.  That you are more advanced,
more intellegent, and just plain better than any animal out there, you have
to have been walking around with your head in a cloud.

Sure a lion can kick my ass.  But I bet with a few minutes and a stick, I
would wip something up that would make it a hell of a lot harder.

There is more than just ability however that seperates man from animal.
There is feeling.  I don't care what you can show me, I will not believe
that an animal shows love.  I believe that animals become familiar with
people and other animals, and that they become used to and dependant on
some, but not emotion.  And how could you prove it even if they did?  Well
I suppose they could tell you if they are so damned smart.  If they are so
much equivalent to us, or so much like us, why haven't they fought back?
They don't understand THAT'S WHY!

I have never ever ever seen an animal kill and another animal and feel
sorry for it afterwards.  Watch film of a fox on the hunt some time.
Watch how after he wounds his prey, he plays with it while it is still
alive.  Watch how he looks like he is having fun doing so.  Watch me kill
and animal and hit my knees and thank god and mother earth for the chance
to take a life to feed my family.  Tell me who is better!
I don't blame the fox, he acts on instinct.  Don't blame me either - for
though I don't kill by instinct (at least not when hunting ;-) I do so
out of need and desire for food.  Every animal I kill in the feild is one
less I buy at the store - and anyway, its healthier.

`And I have spent many non-stimulating animals with very intelligent people....
`I have spent many "stimulating" hours with animals.  From playing or running
`with the dogs to just walking around with the horses, I find many things about
`the way they think fascinating.  Several times I have been mystified while
`teaching a trick to one, that another will try to do it too.  It doesn't
`have to, it wants to.  I do not use food rewards......

You have just proved my point.  Observing behavior and conditioning is the
only form of learning that can be sought from an animal (or in your words,
"stimulation")

`>Even if you argue that some chimps in labs have been taught basic speach,
`>there are still valid arguements to support the fact that it is just
`>advanced conditioning.  

`As part of the Gardners research with chimps, Boyce Rensberger, a reporter
`remarked after meeting with the chimps:
`  
`    Suddenly I realized I was conversing with a member of another
`    species in my native tongue.

I would question whether it was something she observed or just wanted to
believe.  I am sure that I could even train a parakeet to seem like it was
conversing if I worked at "conditioning" it long enough.  These animals
do not _strive_ to learn.  They are forced by conditioning.  Though not
physically, it is definately not voluntary.

`>And usually they are not willing to learn what
`>they are taught, however, they are more interested in getting a treat.
`>swood

`One chimp in particular, thought it her duty to teach a cat sign language.
`She reasoned that the cat was stupid.

I suppose that it told you that?

`There was no motivation for Washoe
`to speak to the cat, except to converse with another animal.  And, what
`motivation does a chimp have to say "Cry me.  Me cry." when its foster mother
`is removed?

Well enroll the sucker in Community College!  Sure shows signs of definite
higher thinking to me.  Hell, last time I was down at the Community College,
some of those students kinda reminded me of simeans (sp?).  Wouldn't doubt
that old Washoe could probably even score higher than most of them on
tests.

swood
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