HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 17:07:55 GMT

Unto Ciaran does (Balde)Rick send his greetings.

I too hope that this whole thing can be written off
as a big misunderstanding.

Really, this *should* be a non-issue.

Angharad touched on a very valid point that I would
like to expand upon.  Perhaps noone has explained how
people in the SCA adopt 'personae'.  For example,
my persona is Balderik, a 10th century *viking* who
works the trade routes through Russia.  He is a pagan.
Were I a Wiccan (in *real life* I hold to no particular
religion), the pentacle would hold deep significance.
Were you to show Balderik a pentacle, you would get the
'big blank look'.  Worldly and well travelled as he is,
such a symbol would be meaningless to him.  As Angharad
pointed out, if anything, he might recognize it as a
Christian or Jewish symbol.  If I were a Christian in
real life, it would not make sense for Balderik to
have a cross on his shield either
(unless he was in the employ
of a nominally Christian army, in which case the cross
would be livery as opposed to personal heraldry).

In any case, heraldry in the form used within the
SCA is would be alien to Balderik.  Balderik might
have a symbol that he regards as 'his', and he might
paint it on his shield/banner/etc., but it would
be unlikely to obey the rules of SCA heraldry.
So even if you could document that a particular
pagan people used the pentacle between 500-1600AD,
devising a heraldric coat of arms containing it
still wouldn't really make sense unless this people
also used heraldry. At least that's the way I see it.

From a practical point of view, lifting the ban might not
make much of a difference to most people because when
you try to register a device, the college of heralds
checks to see that it does not resemble someone else's
device too closely.  If pentacles were allowed and
people were registering arms containing it, it might
soon become difficult to devise a device that did not
conflict with someone else's.

The only SCA device I can think of that actually contains
a religious 'symbol' is one that contains a Thor's hammer.
I don't know if it is registered, and if it is, it is 
probably registered as simply containing a 'hammer'. 

For better or worse, one would never know that Christianity
was the dominant religion of the Middle Ages by looking
at the SCA.  When I joined, Celts and Vikings were the
most prevalent personae in my area, and Japanese personae
were the new craze. Unless things are very different in
your area, you might be disappointed by how little a reaction
being openly pagan in the SCA gets you.

Being a novice blacksmith myself, I hope we can wipe away
this bad first impression.

Cheers,
Balderik
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: 5 Sep 92 12:26:42 GMT
Organization: The Rialto


I wrote:
 
>>>I suspect the State of Pennsylvania would be happy to permit us to
>>>engage in a roadside beautification project.... 
[Specifics of my suggestion for planting trees along I-79 to block 
the view from the road, thus giving the gawkers nothing to gawk at &
the truckers nothing to honk at, omitted for bandwidth.]
 
Corun MacAnndra replied:
 
>> I know from personal experience that the Cooper's would welcome and help
>> for improving the campground, and they do own a backhoe. Whether you can
>> get the permission of the state to plant is another thing....
 
and Duncan Forbes added:
 
>I would be happy to help also. I also think that if the trees are on the
>Cooper's land there is little that will concern the state. 
 
True.  There are several reasons why I suggested planting the trees on
the State's right of way:  Planting just inside the fence would put 
the trees in the middle of what is currently a path, and moving 
the path would cut into the available camping space.  Also, I-79
is atop a fairly steep embankment along most of it's frontage with 
Cooper's Lake; the higher up that embankment we can plant the trees, 
the sooner they will be tall enough to block the view.  So, asking the 
Coopers' permission to plant on their land would be a fallback if the
State were uncooperative.
 
At this point, I'd like to gather some information & then, if it looks 
viable, touch base with the Pennsic planning people.  Are there any 
Pennsylvania residents out there who are interested in this project 
who'd be willing to act as the contact-point with the State beauracracy?
I'm willing to draft the correspondence (carefully vague & not mentioning 
the SCA); I just think there'd be fewer irrelevant questions if the  
State's contact were a Pa. resident.  ('So, why is somebody from 
Massachusetts so interested in beautifying a Pennsylvania road?')
 
Also (& far less likely), is there anyone out there with good contacts 
in the timber industry?  Someone who might be able to swing a discount, 
or maybe even a donation, with to regard some saplings for a good cause?
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 1992 14:36:47 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
	<Bu8Bnz.LoM@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 7-Sep-92 Re: Prince of Thieves
Wrongos A.J.S. Nusbacher@gpu.utc (1990)

> What's the point?  It's fiction!

> While I do appreciate the game of finding wrongos in "historical" flicks,
> there also has to be a line drawn between fact and fiction.  

There was a discussion of this issue on medtext-l (I believe) a few
weeks ago, involving the use of historical fiction (such as the Flashman
novels, or in this case Robin Hood:Prince of Thieves) in the history
classroom.  The basic concensus was that using historical fiction as a
teaching tool is not a good idea because  beginning students don't have
a good means to separate the history part from the fiction part, and
because it subtly colors how more knowlegeable students look at the
history.  Heck, I'm sure everyone on the Rialto has a modern work of
fiction or movie that has confused the way they look at a period of
history; I know I would have sworn that the Emperess Livia poisoned all
here relations after reading "I Cladius", even though there's really no
evidence of it.

As such, I think that the game of finding wrongos in "historical" flicks
is not only fun, it's a good learning and teaching tool.  It helps those
who DO have the means to separate fact from fiction to keep the two
straight, and it helps those who don't to look at the work with a more
knowledgable eye, and helps everyone to remember that such things should
be a STARTING point for research not an end point.  This last is
something that I think all of us forget all too often: that when present
day culture presents stories of the past, they are 1. always colored by
the culture that presents them, 2.  our view of the past is affected by
that presentation.

Besides, in the "Behind the Scenes" interviews, the stars (well Kevin
Costner anyhow) made a BIG deal of how well researched and historical
RH:PoT was.  So it's only fair to point out just how poorly researched
and historical it was.

toodles, margaret
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: New address
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:28:47 GMT


Greetings all, from Vajk!

As of 4:30 p.m. on Wednesday, September 9, 1992, I will be unable
to read any mail sent to me at my old address (00030929@ysub.ysu.edu)

Please use ae766@yfn.ysu.edu.

Thank you.

Note:  The old address may say that I have recieved your message.
       It lies.
##
#
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Time period
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:26:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  In response to questions from
Michael Carson, Donal writes,

>The time period that the SCA works within is (with some arguments, 
>depending on who you talk to!) 800 AD to 1650 AD. Some push it as far 
>back as 600 AD and forward to about 1670, but 800-1650 is generally 
>accepted. You can see that depending on WHERE you are in the world, 

The Organizational Handbook provides the following definition (Preface,
page d):

"Period - Noun: The era used by the Society as a base for its activities,
that is, Western culture prior to the beginning of the 17th Century -
mainly the European Middle Ages and Renaissance.  Adjective: Of, from,
or reflecting that era."

CORPORA IID specifies:

"Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
pre-17th century dress, conforms to the provisions of the By-Laws and
Corpora, complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers)
which may be imposed by the Society, and behaves as a lady or gentleman."

Article III of the By-Laws reads:

"The Society shall be dedicated primarily to the promotion of research
and re-creation in the field of pre-17th-century Western culture, as
stated in greater detail in Article II of the Society's Articles of
Incorporation."

In short:

There is an official upper bound, and it is 1600.  There are many people
within the SCA who would like to see it extended, and some places where
these people occur in reasonably large numbers, but it has not been
extended.  So it would not be wise to expect acceptance of recreations
dating past 1600 in the Society at large.

The lower edge is much trickier.  This is the first time I have heard
800 cited; but this particular issue tends to be very sensitive to location
within the SCA, because there is no official published lower bound.
I have heard many, many references to a Board-of-Directors decision back 
when the world was young that the bottom end is 600; but unless you have 
received the BoD minutes from the dawn of time, there is no way whatsoever 
to verify this.  

It is, however, clear, in governing documents of the Society if not in all
our minds ;^}, that insofar as there is a meaningful distinction
between Classical Antiquity and the Middle Ages, Classical Antiquity is
out and the Middle Ages are in.

I hope this helps clarify matters for Michael.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: All-male royalty (no gurls aloud!)
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:58:11 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

Arval wrote,


> same injustice by exaggerating his position that others have done by
> labelling the SCA as "homophobic".  In designing our social structures, the
> Society has necessarily compromised at every step.  Thom's question is
> simply whether the romantic image of a man and woman as the royal couple is
> so important as to override the obvious discomfort it causes some of our
> members.

     I always assumed the rule was to assure that both male and female halves
of the populace will have a representative on the throne in any given reign. 
There are issues that come up in every reign that are primarily of interest
to women and I would be surprised if the female members of the populace would
feel just as well understood and well represented by a male consort selected
by a male king as they would in bringing their issues before a female queen.

     Compared to what *looks*, on the surface at least, like a disenfranchise-
ment of half the populace I don't think the private desires of a particular gay
Crown Tourney winner to reign with his same-sex SO carry much weight.  The
king is expected to place the needs of his subjects well ahead of his own
wishes, and I'd roundly opine that any stick jock who can't wrap his mind
around that fact is not qualified to be king.

                                           -- Geoffrey
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Inflammatory rhetoric (Period songs etc.)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:27:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.180909.25377@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes:
>When putting forth an idea I was called a liar (which was
>immediately retracted) and derided.  

I'm partial to "I believe you are mistaken."  It has the advantage of
being easy to back down from--one can, after all, change ones beliefs.

>BTW: If the Auth. Police have cited me for several instances of "Improper
>Use of the Term: Period" where do I pay the fines?  Is there an Auth. Judge
>that I can appeal to?   :) :)

I suggest Mistress Eilis O'Boirne, West Kingdom Senschale, talented
Autocrat, Fund Raiser Extraordinaire.  You won't get out of the
fine--but she'll probably have you pay it the Land Fund.    :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:23:12 GMT

Angharad ver' Rhuawn wrote:
  Well, actually, no.  I believe the ban originates with the Laurel
  Sovereign of Arms (i.e. the highest ranking herald in the Society),
  not with the BoD. I don't think the issue has been _taken_ to the
  BoD.  (Arval, am I wrong?)

I'm not Arval.  But, yes, Arval was the herald who forced the appeal
to the Board. And, yes, he argued it should be allowed, and yes, he lost.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 6 Sep 92 01:27:04 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu recently posted:

>As for the same-sex consort question:
>I've avoided putting my $4 in so far. I've seen some truly homophobic
>answers, some merely stupid answers, and some vaguely acceptable answers
>(though one of the best of the latter, "It's not period," is, as far as 
>I'm concerned, balderdash. These are the CURRENT Middle Ages, and thank
>whatever deities you like we've progressed since the last ones. We don't
>tax serfs into the ground these days either (well, WE don't :-) nor do
>we lop the heads off of people we don't like for a living. 

And posted on behalf of Etain macDhomhnuill:

>Homosexual couples may not be period but neither is women's rights or
>tolerance towards Jews or many other things we could name. We don't
>not do those things just because they're not period, so not being period
>isn't really that good a criterion.

These remarks identify the problem quite well.  We have a choice.  We can
use one of two decision-rules in admitting or excluding practices from
our recreation:
	1.  Historical documentation of medieval practice;
	2.  The modern preferences, prejudices, and ideologies of modern
		people.

The first has, at least, the virtue of some degree of objectivity.  The
latter is entirely arbitrary, if enforced, or no decision rule at all.

By and large we tend to accept the second decision rule by default.  That is
why the SCA by and large has as much to do with the Middle Ages as quantum
mechanics.  Other people have every right to live their fantasies as they
choose.  I'm a little tired of having their fantasies imposed on my
historical recreation and even more tired of being told that their
fantasies have anything whatsoever to do with medieval history, as the
grotesque formula, "the current middle ages," implies.

We hear a great deal of lip-service paid to tolerance of people's "dreams,"
because any other course would drive people out of the Society.  The net
effect of the current decision rule is to drive out the medievalists.

In Service to the Society,

Hossein Ali Qomi/Gregory F. Rose
From: ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Baby Announcement!
Date: 6 Sep 92 04:29:45 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Good gentles --

We are VERY pleased to share the joyful news that:

   Elizabeth Kori Guildroy Schroeder

was born at 7:23 p.m. on Saturday, September 5th, 1992.         

Weight:  8 lbs. 1 oz.    Length: 21 inches

Our new daughter was born after 12 hours of labor.
Mother, child, and father are doing well.

Our thanks to all of you for your help and support thus far!

Much love --

  Dave Schroeder         Bertram of Bearington
  Amy Guildroy           Eromene Aspasia of Constantinople

  117 Gordon Street * Pittsburgh, PA 15218 * (412) 731-3230

  Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands * AEthelmearc * East
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: kingdom finances
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:06:46 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

In recent postings, we saw discussion of how to fund a kingdom.  One person
suggested a head-tax at events; some people noted that their kingdom's take
money from kingdom events.  Note the difference: The kingdom takes money
from its own events, not from events of local branches.  

Sir Alan wrote: 

> This is all part of a more general problem - the SCA, Inc., and the Kingdoms
> are seriously underfunded.  It is a rule of thumb that a non-profit needs
> to have 2 1/2 years operating funds in the bank, and I don't think that
> the SCA Inc. has nearly this amount.

I wonder if you aren't overlooking a very important question: Who should be
making the decisions?  Or, to put it another way: Underfunded for what?
Whoever has the money gets to decide how it gets used.  You seem to be
suggesting that these decisions would be made better by the kingdoms and/or
the corporation than by the local branches.  Why do you believe that?

The question of how to fund the corporation & the kingdoms is a difficult
one.  It is made more difficult whenever either body uses its authority to
require money from members and local branches.  Before deciding from where
the money will come, we need to decide for what the money is needed.  When
higher authority requires funding from below, it pre-empts that discussion
and imposes its own choices on the rest of the organization.  Balance is
best achieved when the people spending the money and the people holding the
purse strings are carefully separated.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Iron chicken
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 00:56:44 -0500

aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writeth:

 AN> I first heard the term in the Debatable Lands.

Which reminds me, when I lived there, the common term (or at least the term I
heard at fighter practice) was "high guard".  Is the "iron chicken" term an
invention of the past nine years or so?
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about membership
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:08:06 GMT
Organization: Progress Software Corp.

Bartholomew Landover asks:
                                                        I am a national
  member but I was wondering if there is a rule that I have to be a
  "member" of one local group (that I am in geographically) or can I
  be a member of another local group (where I like the people more).

I am of the belief (meaning, I cannot cite the actual rules themselves)
that the Administrative Handbook states that one is a member in the
group where one physically resides, based upon zip-code.  It is not
uncommon, however, for people to receive their newsletters and
membership cards in the mail at a friend's house in the area they
want to join, or to rent a post office box in the appropriate zip-code.

It is not possible to simply write to the Registry, and ask to be
counted in an area you don't reside in.  I tried this when I lived
in Trimaris, but was about to move back to Boston 4 months after my
renewal.  I was a member of Trimaris, until such time as I made a
requested address change.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: pentacles on arms
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:03:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.205934.21922@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
)Creating armory for legendary characters was a common game in medieval
)literature (Arthur & his knights, biblical figures, God, the Devil, Prester
)John, the angels, the early saints, etc).  These devices appeared in rolls
)of arms, mixed in with the armory of real people.  In effect, this invented
)armory became a much a part of heraldry as the real thing.  Since they
)sprang from the same culture which produced the real heraldry, and were
)treated as if they were real heraldry, why shouldn't we treat them the same
)way?  

	Did the arms attributed to Gawain by the author of the story
ever appear in a period roll of arms?

Kwellend-Njal 
-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
                       "Nice girls don't explode."
From: Theron.Bretz@f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Theron Bretz)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Using period words to refer to mundanities
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:50:00 -0500

From the pen(?) of Etienne de Montagu, good greetings:
    Amen to your comments re: referring to mundanities in "pseudo-periodese". 
My personal pet peeve is the continuing trend of referring to automobiles as
dragons.  I find that steed work quite adequately.  In a similar vein I've
always thought it a better idea to refer to journeys in terms of time, not
distance.  Instead of referring to the Barony of the Stargate being 200 miles
from Bjornsborg, I prefer to say that its a four hour ride, three and a half if
I break my horse.
                                        Deo Te Cum,
                                        Etienne
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts, homophobia, fun mavins, etc.
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:38:10 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Sep9.233710.21829@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.214605.7505@umr.edu> asparrow@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow) writes:
>>I think the ruling couple does need to be motos,
>>for one of the reasons stated: identification.
>>I'd have a real problem feeling valuable during
>>the reign of a pair of men.  My husband likewise with women.

>Gently, milady, gently.

>Think, for a moment how those not of your persuasion feel when they
>look at thrones under the current system.

If they're men, they have a man (or woman) to identify with. If
they're women, they have a woman (or man) to identify with. What about
gay men in a reign of two women? 

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca