From: mikem@ll.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Order of play
Summary: Resolution of challenge
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:11:20 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory


These questions pertain primarily to the EON version, but I suspect there
are similar timing-resolution problems in the Mayfair edition.

Sorry this is so long.  If you just want to minimize your reading, you can
skip over my opinions by ignoring the text that's indented two spaces
  like this.

Did any *official* CE entity ever publish a detailed breakdown of the steps
that occur in the resolution of a challenge?  We've run into various timing
questions more than once, and they've been the cause of no small amount of
debate.

Other opinions on these topics are welcome and encouraged.  How do *you*
deal with these situations?



(1)
In a normal challenge, when offense wins and defense played a compromise,
at what point is there a lien on the offensive player's hand?  Also, at
what point does the defensive player actually collect consolation?

  Seems to me that once the compromise card is revealed, the lien should
  go into effect immediately, and offense can only play cards which would
  have the effect of lifting the lien.  Thus, it is too late for offense
  to try to eliminate cards from his hand, just to prevent defense from
  collecting them in consolation.



(2)
Similarly, when defense wins and offense played a compromise, does the
offensive player get consolation before or after allies get their rewards,
or should this happen simultaneously?

  Seems to me that the handing out of cards at the end of the challenge
  should all be considered to happen simultaneously.  If either action
  were considered to come before the other, then the first one might be
  able to interfere with the second.  (huh?)  OK, let's say allies get
  defensive rewards first, and *then* offense gets consolation.  So if a
  defensive ally picks up a Stellar Gas, he could use it to deprive the
  offensive player of his consolation.  Now, reverse it, and say that the
  consolation gets handed out first, then defensive rewards.  What if the
  consolation contains a card, like wild grudge, that could be used to
  stop defensive allies from receiving rewards?

  By simply declaring that both actions happen simultaneously, we avoid
  the whole timing conflict.  There's no way for Consolation to interfere
  with defensive rewards, or vice versa.  (And, logically, why should it
  be otherwise?  Why should either option have precedence?)



(2a)
Assuming offense played a compromise, so there's a lien on defense's hand,
should defense still be able to play a Victory Boon?  Or would defense have
to wait until cards were taken as consolation, and only then be allowed to
play Victory Boon (if he still had it)?

  I think Victory Boon is one of those cards that should still be playable
  in spite of a hand-lien-due-to-compromise, but *only* because it is very
  specific as to when it can be played.  (i.e. after challenge outcome is
  determined)  In that case, Victory boon may be played before consolation
  is drawn from the remaining cards.  The new cards gained by playing the
  Victory Boon are not subject to loss through consolation, since they are
  not in the defender's hand yet.  All cards - consolation, allies rewards,
  and Victory Boon rewards - enter their recipient's hands simultaneously.



(3)
Finally, when does a game-win become final?  Once totals are determined,
so the winner is apparently decided, is it still OK to play something like
the wild Filth (Declare one planet "filthy", tokens there are returned to
other bases) knocking the winner's total number of bases back down to 4,
or is it too late?

  I'd say there's still an opportunity between calculation of totals and
  occupation of the base, so that a player can use any power or card that
  is applicable, prior to offense's occupation of the base.  So, yes, the
  wild filth can be used after totals are determined to deprive offense
  of a base needed to achieve a win.



(3a)
If the winning player occupies his fifth external base, but loses the wild
Filth as consolation to the defensive player, can defense immediately use
it to wipe out one of offense's bases, preventing his win?

  This bothers me.  If we say 'yes, Filth can be used to stop the win.',
  then we must also consider the following:

  Challenge using inverse cone.  Offense has lots of allies, defense plays
  a compromise.  If we consider rewards and consolation to be simultaneous,
  and we allow cards taken in consolation to be used against the winning
  offensive player to prevent him from winning the game, then we must also
  allow the offensive allies to use cards received as rewards as possible
  win-stoppers.

  I think this is just allowing things to drag on too long.  If totals are
  determined, and no one does anything, and offense then occupies the base,
  then offense wins.  Consolation and rewards are not given/taken.

  Exception (that's not really an exception):

  If offense wins only because he holds a particular card (i.e. wild miser),
  it seems reasonable that he must give consolation and still retain the card
  before his win is considered final.  This is entirely consistent with
  previous arguments.  Note that, prior to using the Miser flare, the player
  has only 4 bases, and therefore has not won the game.  Since flares are
  'optional', they must be explicitly exercised (they don't take effect
  automatically).  But offense can't use the flare yet, because there's a
  lien on his hand (because of the compromise).  So, defense gets consolation
  first, *then* offense has a chance to try to use the flare to claim the win.
  (if it's still in his hand!)

OK, plenty of my own opinions up there.  Anyone else want to comment?

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