HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: government and the arts
Date: 8 Apr 1992 19:55:14 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

To once again bring up an argument I used in another newsgroup: If Mozart
were alive today and able to collect retroactive royalties, he would
likely be richer than Paul McCartney. As it is, thank goodness he had
government support when he did or we might not have much of his music
today.

The point is, I would be willing to concede letting "the market" being
the final arbiter of what art is worthy of support IF the market included
not just the current market, but the market for the future also. Letting
the free market of consumers as it is dictate the market tends to support
only what is of huge immediate interest, no matter how fleeting. Thus
knee-jerk short-term exploitive commercialism is tremendously rewarded,
even though no one will remember it next year.

Meanwhile, works which will potentially provide more enjoyment to more
people are not supported because its audience may accumulate over years
or decades. Worse yet, many of those works are never written at all
because potential Mozarts are out there driving cabs.

Of course no one really knows what works will last into the future, but
for all their faults, including cliqueishness and ivory-tower attitudes,
the government supported grant-giving committees and institutions are
a critical addition to free-market arts. Without government support at
all levels, most symphony orchestras, dance companies, and museums would
not survive. If an orchestra did survive, they would be probably be
forced to choose between doubling their ticket price or becoming all-
pops or some other compromise.

Bill Alves
From: vance@speech.sri.com (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Low trombones [Re: Oboe family]
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:20:47 GMT
	<CB.92Apr7110212@tamarack12.timbuk> <1992Apr13.153115.24234@osf.org>
	<1992Apr13.175020.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Organization: Speech recognition group, SRI
In-reply-to: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu's message of 13 Apr 92 21:50:20 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.175020.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

   I seem to recall reference to a contrabass tbn in b-flat which
   would probably be playable down to below that A (my speculation).
   However, the slide would have to be VERY long, or crooked.

Cecil Forsyth (happens to be on my desk) gives a quotation from _Das
Rheingold_ where Wagner drives the contrabass down to the pedal E,
more than an octave below the staff.  "With regard to the
Double-Bass-Trombone, it may be questioned whether in its manufacture
the limits of human lungs and lips have not been overstepped."

	Vance
From: slhqf@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: music from "Breaking Away"?
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:47:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: cc.1992Apr7.134740.54271
Organization: Utah State University

In article <72750001@hpujsda.yhp.hp.com>, yoshi@hpujsda.yhp.hp.com (Kazuo Yoshizaki) writes:
> In rec.music.classical, twc@Saigon.COM (Ted Chan) writes:
> 
>     From article <khaw.701314803@parcplace.com>, by khaw@parcplace.com (Mike Khaw):
>>    > If anyone knows, what are the titles and who are the composers of the
>>    > various pieces of music used in the movie "Breaking Away"?  For pieces
>>    > excerpted from operas, please identify the opera as well, thanks.
>>
>>    Music from the "Barber of Seville" was featured prominently...
>>    If you require further detail, please email.  Don't have my CD's
>>    handy here at the shop.
> 
> "Marta" by Floto was also featured in the movie. This was mainly sung in it.
> Rmemeber the scene the guy singing sereanade for the lady?

Mendelssohn's symphony #4, the Italian symphony, was also featured in the movie
"Breaking Away."
> 
>
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: government and the arts
Date: 14 Apr 92 05:06:58 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <CB.92Apr13170015@tamarack12.timbuk> 
cb@tamarack12.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Karl Henning writes:

>   Think how many photographs of crucifixes in apple juice
>   coulda been paid for by /one/ of those stealth bombers ... :-)

>Gary Merrill writes:

>   As a genuine work of art, I'll take the stealth bomber.

>The point isn't the *amount* of money.  The point is the simple irreducible
>fact that we are paying someone to insult us, and not even insult us
>interestingly.  

I take it you've actually SEEN the Serrano photo.  Most people who
complain about it have not.  Most people who have seen it find it
anything but insulting.  Most people who are insulted by it only know it
by Jesse Helms' description.

>Serrano is just another Andrew Dice Clay, but with a knack
>for playing the game of the art world.  

How many of his works do you know?  How does "Piss Christ" fit into the
rest of his work?  Is your description and accurate representation of
what he does?

>Naturally I don't want Jesse Helms
>making arts funding decisions, but whoever made the Serrano decision needs
>to be replaced.

Replaced, eh?  One grant that offends Jesse and Chris and some other
people, most of whom haven't even seen the work in question, but rely on
descriptions of it, and you're out of a job?  Do you even know how NEA
grant applications are handled?

This way to commissarism.

Roger (who is disgusted that things like this led to the ouster of John
Frohnmayer as an election-year sop to Pat Buchanan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smoliar@hilbert.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Subject: Re: "Street Scene", American Opera, Menotti, Weisgall
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:03:39 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.140425.23584@linus.mitre.org> rwilmer@gateway (R. Wilmer)
writes:
>
>I am interested in getting to know American 
>opera better.  Right now I am working on Hugo
>Weisgall's Purgatory:  difficult music set to
>a difficult text by Yeats.

Several years ago during a visit to San Francisco, I saw a one-act opera
setting of "Purgatory" by a composer who I believe was named Catherine Stone.
The setting was translated to the deep South after the Civil War, with the
orchestra in battered uniforms.  It all worked very well.  I would certainly
be interested in any word of subsequent progress in Ms. Stone's career.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hsmoliar+@cs.cmu.edu (Harold Smoliar)
Subject: Re: viola da gamba
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 20:12:41 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: rec

In article <1992Apr10.815.13882@dosgate> "greg trice" <greg.trice@canrem.com> writes:
>  I'm interested in finding out whether there is any MODERN (i.e. 20th
>century) music for the viola da gamba, particularly in an ensemble
>context. Particularly interesting would be small chamber groupings, or a
>concerto for gamba and orchestra. I'm not interested in arrangements.
>
>                        -Greg Trice-
  


David Loeb, a music theory and composition teacher at The Curtis Institute of
Music has written several chamber works that involve viola da gamba.
Harold
hsmoliar@db1.speech.cs.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST MYTHS
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 12 Apr 92 00:40:38 EDT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <31353@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
> In article <DF4NiB1w164w@b-cpu.UUCP> pfaust@b-cpu.UUCP (Pete Faust) writes:
>  
>      Germans and we of German descent are sons and daughters
> of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, Haydn,
> Handel, Humperdinck, Johann and Richard Strauss, Berg,
> Webern, Hindemith, Schnittke, Goethe, Schiller, Kant, Hegel,
> 
> 
> 	Is there any particular reason Schoenberg is left out
> 	above, but not his students Webern and Berg?
> 
> 
> Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, ad infinitum.  We have not gassed (a
> new dimension in inhumanity) and do not gas people...any
> people.
> 
> 	The Germans introduced mustard gas in warfare against
> 	the British at Ypres, Belgium, in July 1917.  As for
> 	Nazi gassings, the documentation is overwhelming,
> 	as the net has seen.
> -- 
> Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Mr. Evans, the point is that Germans did not gas anyone -- Nazis did.  Your
ancestors were likely slave owners.  Maybe not in the Southern USA, but
somewhere sometime back there...
	The European culture as a whole has elevated the technology of warfare
more than any other.  Our German ancestors may have introduced gas warfare, but
our AMERICAN ancestors introduced atomic warfare -- mainly because of FALSE
intelligence that the germans were ahead of us in the effort to build a nuclear
bomb.  If you condemn Americans of German descent for the introduction of
mustard gas or the murder of millions of innocent people, then you must condemn
yourself for the introduction of A-bombs, the opression of several groups, and
the destruction of numerous cultures around the world.

Peter Hoogenboom
phoogenb@ucs.indiana.edu
From: kishen@askincask.COM ( RkishenD)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Request for Music Appreciation Tapes/Books.
Keywords: music,appreciation,tapes,books
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:43:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Inc. Mountain View, CA

Hi,

I am an avid listener of classical (Indian and Western). I would like
a list of books that will guide in my appreciation of Western music. I
would also like to know if there are tapes/discs available explaining to
the novice the how-to of appreciating Western classical music.

Thanks.  kishen@ask.com
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Theme in Handel and Mozart
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:55:26 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster

In article <1992Apr14.183725.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca>, dbarker@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:
> In article <1992Apr14.200619.26812@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu>, rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:
 
> BTW, am I the only person in the world who finds Messiah a monumental
> bore? (To listen to, that is, I've always enjoyed singing it.)
I agree. I think there are two reasons. Firstly the appalling tradition of
massacring Handels pretty delicate writing with huge Symphony Orchestras and
500 piece choruses with 30 tenors who can't sing. Thank goodness this is going
out. But more importantly, and less avoidably, Handel was an appallingly
unimaginative orchestrator. His oboes do no more than double the fiddles, and
the trumpets are just used for the obvious effects (The trumpet shall sound).
Does anyone know if Mozart's arrangement did much for this, and whether it's
available in a recording inspired by the authentic crowd, or even by them. I
make this plea because I've got to suffer singing in two performances of the
Mozart requiem under James Judd this week, and he seems to think it's by
Brahms. Two examples. the "Lachrymosa" is going at dotted crotchet = c.30
(Novello edition suggests 69) and the "Confutatis" at about quaver=72 (Novello
edition: crotchet=72). To make it worse he is slowing down even more for the
soprano and alto "Voca me".

(Note for US audiences: quaver=eighth-note, crotchet=quarter-note)
Stephen Wilcox
wilcox@uk.ac.ox.maths
> -- 
> Deryk Barker
> Computer Science Dept.
> Camosun College,
> Victoria, BC
> Canada
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smoliar@hilbert.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Subject: Re: Memorable (?) cover art.
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:29:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.125100.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca>
dbarker@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.002021.13347@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>,
>ray@gawain.cif.rochester.edu (Raymond Sunessen Tuttle) writes:
>> 
>> And what about those wacky Westminster Gold issues from the 70's? Does
>> anyone
>> remember covers for their Ring Cycle? I think "Die Walkure" had a photograph
>> on the cover showing a pigtailed blonde woman shielding her breasts with the
>> hubcaps from a Volkswagon.
>> 
Wasn't this the series for which GOETTERDAEMMERUNG was a crumbled cookie (as in
"That's the way the . . .")?

> Or my favourite, an Italian (Movimento Musica) release of
>Furtwaengler conducting Beethoven's 7th. On the cover is a male ballet 
>dancer, with bulging tights; over his head is superimposed a picture
>of Beethoven's. (Hey, "apotheosis of the dance" right?)
>
Actually, this may be a bit of historic record.  Leonid Massine actually
undertook a setting of this symphony in choreography.  It is one of those
works which seems to be entirely forgotten today;  and, if one is to believe
most critical reports, that is probably just as well.  However, there is at
least one famous photograph of Frederick Franklin performing this work which
can be found in many dance history books.  For all I know, that is the
photograph which made it to the album cover.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
From: wy09+@andrew.cmu.edu (Walter Allen Young, III)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Good Perf Major Schools?????
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:48:21 GMT
	<CB.92Apr7104710@tamarack12.timbuk>
	<1992Apr12.152832.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
	<CB.92Apr13124041@tamarack12.timbuk>
Organization: Junior, Music, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

chris brewster writes:
>I didn't mean IU is "the best" school, because Juilliard probably has a
lock on >that title;
actually from what i hear its harder to get into eastman or curtis
nowadays than it is to get into juilliard, especially for wind players.
-lenny
From: jcm@cfm.brown.edu (Javier Cruz-Mena)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Sibelius Violin Concerto
Date: 10 Apr 1992 21:13:44 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sparce.cfm.brown.edu

In article <996@xlnt.COM>, david@xlnt.com (David Johnson) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr7.020718.15812%mr804321@cs.nthu.edu.tw>, mr804321@cs.nthu.edu.tw (mr80) writes:
|> |> 
|> |>   I like Sibelius violin concerto and I wonder why
|> |> Tchaikovsky violin is one of the 4 greatest violin concertos.
|> |> I use Sibelus violin concerto to replace it.
|> |>                                         Wen.
|> 
|> Pardon my ignorance, what are the other three greatest violin concerti?
|> I can think of what would be considered the four most *popular* violin
|> concerti but I think it is difficult to say which are the four greatest.
|> 
|> -- 
|> David Johnson
|> XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
|> david@xlnt.com
|> the hapa haole
|> (or more precisely the hakka haole)
|> (or even more precisely, the hapa hakka hapa haole, or h^4)

	In general, Beethoven's, Tschaikovsky's, Sibelius' and Brahms' are the four
concerti which ought to be on the top of any violinist's standard list. Some people 
argue for sneaking Bruch's concerto in as well.
	All this is, of course, quite arbitrary... as many other things in life.

	javier cruz mena.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky)
Subject: Re: _The Love for Three Oranges_
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:04:43 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.162609.5565@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.151242.6003@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu>
> dkmenser@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Kirk Menser) writes:
>>I have read that the march from Prokofiev's TLFTO was used as the
>>theme for a popular television series.  Does anyone know which
>>series?
>
>The FBI, of course!  (On radio, too, I believe.)
>
>TRIVIA: what other connection with "classical" music does that show
>have?  (Easy for some of us...)

Efrem Zimbalist [JS]r.

And what about "Hogan's Heroes"?

-David Pesetsky
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Kurt Weill's "Street Scene" on London
Summary: the trouble with _Street Scene_
Date: 13 Apr 92 01:01:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr13.002454.20704@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, ray@gawain.cif.rochester.edu (Raymond Sunessen Tuttle) writes:

> I would cast my vote for Kurt Weill's "Street Scene."

Well, I would *like* to do so, but find I cannot.  I went last year in 
high hopes to a City Opera presentation of it -- and found it mostly flat. 
There is nothing in it of the sharp wit of Weill's music for the Brecht
collaborations, and less still of wit in the book.  The older generation
Jewish socialist appeals to me (an ideological button of mine, no doubt),
but there is so little FLAVOR to most of the characters.  It works well
enough on stage to tolerate it, but without being very incisive.  There
is not the depth of the Brecht dramas, nor the surface wit of a Porter
musical (nevermind the lack of substance :-))

I heard little or nothing worth *musical* remembrance in the piece.

> Anna is both a moving and believable character, and a symbol for the plight

rather schematic, I thought.  That Weill and the others had their hearts
in the right place I will grant -- but there was NOTHING that seemed to me
to crystalize the juxtaposition of different ethnic backrounds in the same
close quarters that the story WANTS.  There were gestures towards the black,
Jewish and Italian components without ANTHING being done with them.

> The opera's view of lower-middle-class American city life in the 40's is
> unsentimental but never cruel, picturesque but never stereotypical.

On the contrary, I saw little EXCEPT stereotypes.  The one thing that I
found a nice playing with standard images was that the "male lead" was
throughout seen as too young to handle reality -- and the denoument is
in some sense his realization that he has to grow up. This much was good
and unusual.

> and Anna's murder in the second act happens very suddenly and a full 25
> minutes before he final curtain comes down. 

Yes -- it poses rather a problem in production.  One has a half-hour of
anti-climax.

> Barbara Bonney (in the tiny role of Jenny Hildebrand), and Arleen Auger and
> Della Jones as two amusingly blood-thirsty nurses (London even credits their
> infant charges in the cast list).

This bit is one of the few memorable (and excerptable) things in the piece.
It almost rises to the acid/sardonic tone of the Brecht/Weill collaborations.

> This fine recording makes a good case for considering "Street Scene" to
> be a work which represents both the best of Kurt Weill and the best of
> American opera.

Far better to get Bernstein's recording of _Candide_, which has almost
everything that a Weill musical might seem to promise.  It is almost un-
bearable how delicious the musical/dramatic ironies are in the second act.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@usl.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
standard disclaimer			With your crooked heart."
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pjm@access.digex.com (Paul Masline)
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT PDQ BACH!
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:31:07 GMT

In article <1925@transfer.stratus.com> boylan@sw.stratus.com (Richard Boylan) writes:
>I have a lot of respect for his decision to give up writing PDQ Bach
>pieces.  It's all but eclipsed his serious composing, which I happen to
>like.  His Elegies for Clarinet and Piano are lovely (and that recording
>is no longer available either, I'm sure.)  He also did some very creative
>arranging work for Joan Baez, including "Joan", "Baptism" and "Noel". Only
>the last is still in print, which is too bad because "Baptism" was a very
>unusual and original album.  I wonder if they sold more than a thousand
>copies.
>
>Richard Boylan
>Stratus Computer
>Marlboro, Mass
>boylan@sw.stratus.com

I must also agree that I really enjoy some of his serious works.  One of my
favorites (and not mentioned above) is called Pentangle: Five Songs for
French Horn and Orchestra.  It was recorded by the Louisville Orchestra
back some time ago.  Wonderful piece of music.

-- 
Paul Masline
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                       pjm@digex.com
                                       pjm@po.cwru.edu
From: sim@ecst.csuchico.edu (Seung Bae Im)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Classical Video list?
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:08:02 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Hello

I am looking for suggestions for Laser Discs of classical
musci performances.
If any one have a list or know any ftp site that has the
list, please e-mail me.
Thank you in advance.
From: vance@speech.sri.com (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: FCC Deregulation? Re: Sorry State of Classical Radio
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:52:04 GMT
	<1992Mar29.132219.479@cgh.cgh.com>
	<salem.701935471@pangea.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Apr6.050909.3446@cgh.cgh.com>
Organization: Speech recognition group, SRI
In-reply-to: paul@cgh.cgh.com's message of 6 Apr 92 05:09:09 GMT


In article <1992Apr6.050909.3446@cgh.cgh.com> paul@cgh.cgh.com (Paul Homchick) writes:

   [sensible stuff about economics of classical radio]

   So why should the government have anything to do with this?  It isn't
   equitable for me to lobby for government action to FORCE these
   stations to provide classical programming.  Why should my preferences
   cause a financial hardship for station owners?  And if the government
   can force classical programming, what's to stop it from forcing Spike
   Jones programming, or 24-hour Doors programming?

But then....

   Finally, there is the matter of the popular culture steamroller.  If
   the classical audience can't support commercial classical stations, it
   must mean that there aren't enough of us.  Not enough people are
   being exposed to serious culture.  I went to a symphony orchestra
   concert in Charlotte, N.C. a few weeks ago, and I was very unhappily
   surprised by the age distribution of the audience.  It had a great
   skew towards senior citizens.  The long-term solution is for all of
   you young music students to take up teaching and make it your life's
   goal to spread your love of classical music to as many other people as
   you can.

Wait, the government can't force people to pay for classical music on
the radio, but it *should* force them to hear classical music in the
schools?  I'm not sure I see how you draw the line.  Does the
government get to decide what is "serious culture", or not?

Basically, I agree with you about government support for art.  I may
envy the level of support for elite music activity in Canada and
Europe, but that doesn't mean I think my own government should
undertake anything similar.  Remember the Mapplethorpe exhibit
obscenity trial in Cincinnati?  The jury decided there was no
obscenity, but in an interview after the trial, jurors said in effect
"The experts told us it was Art, and they must know".  This is exactly
how the arts should not be supported -- by beating the masses into
intellectual submission.  (Sorry, getting off the subject here.)

   For the last thirty years or so, academic music departments
   have been preoccupied with serialism.  This can't have helped the
   long-term popularity of classical music in our culture.  I hope that
   emphasis is shifting, because in the long run, the battle lies with
   the young, and in the schools.

This is really orthogonal to the issue you're worrying about.  The
teachers who have the chance to instill a love of classical music in
schoolchildren aren't coming from Ivy-league graduate programs in
composition.

	Vance