From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: 2nd Ammendment
Summary: Avoiding the real issues
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:42:32 GMT

In article <DLB.92Nov5112146@fanny.wash.inmet.com>, dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) writes:
> This really is kind of silly.  Most of this is covered under present
> law, and is not controversial.  In general, illegal actions with guns
> are not constitutionally protected (nor are illegal actions with
> printing presses, or anything else).
> 

This is circular logic - "illegal actions ... are not .. protected" -
but what we are talking about are things that are illegal or legal
depending on interpretation.  Can certain things be made illegal or
not?  Sure shooting someone with a gun is illegal, what about carrying
in a threatening manner?  That's the point I was trying to make -
where can the government make rules and where can't it.

> In article <1992Nov5.133648.1557@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
> colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:
> 
>    1)  A 12 year old boy takes his father's pistol to school with him.
>        Can school officials take it away?
> 
> Minors are not guaranteed constitutional rights in general; witness
> searches of school lockers.  Some have been granted in limited
> circumstances.  This is not a violation of the constitution.
> 

You mean the inviolable RKBA can be abridged for minors?  What about
18 year olds?  What about 12 year olds on the street?

>    2)  A violent criminal is released on bail.  His first stop is
>        a gun store - can he be forbidden to buy the gun?
> 
> Felons may be denied many constitutional rights, including the right
> to vote.  They often have to petition the governor of the state for
> the right to vote.  This varies from state to state.
> 

I thought the RKBA was an absolute right - how do you lose an absolute
right just by commiting a crime?

>    3)  I rent an apartment overlooking a schoolyard.  Early one morning
>        I screw down the tripod of an automatic weapon to the window sill,
>        attach the gun so it points down towards the schoolyard,
>        and sit there by the gun, smiling, waiting for recess.  Can
>        anyone make me not do this?
> 
> Directing a weapon toward anyone in a manner that a reasonable person
> would consider threatening is assault.  It is illegal, and such laws
> are not unconstitutional.  This is not "keeping a bearing" an arm; it
> is threatening someone with one.
> 

More gray areas - what is a "threatening manner".  What about a guy
in a klan robe with a rifle?  Is that a legitimate RKBA or a
threatening manner?  I'm Jewish and I'd feel threatened - but another
White Supremicist wouldn't.

>    4)  You like to ride on public transportation, holding your Magnum
>        in your hand.  Is this against any law?  Occasionally you playfully
>        point it at an old lady and "Pow!  Pow!".  Is this legal?
> 
> Similarly, this is assault (the pointing, not the holding).  Holding
> in non-threatening manner would be protected.
> 

What about just sitting on the bus, holding the gun and laughing 
uncontrollably?  Who is the "reasonable" person who gets to forbid
this.  I've seen plenty of people on the net who might think that
this is not as threatening as I do.  Do they get to make that decision?

> I have set follow-ups to talk.politics.guns; it really is not an 
> issue for sci.skeptic.  Trying to keep discussions in relevant
> newsgroups is a futile process, but I sometimes try anyway.
> 

Well, this is where it started and now I gotta scan another newgroup,
great.

marc colten