From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:03:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <1992Sep12.211622.8055@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.193139.4493@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep12.035348.29757@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>I don't think you shouldn't. I wouldn't object if you did.
>>If I thought they were actually going to try to kill me,
>>I would probably take some action to prevent them from doing
>>that, but not to prevent you teaching them that.
>
>I might believe that you wouldn't get too worried if it was only I who
>was preaching this, but I think it would be awfully shortsighted of
>you to sit idly by while I started a movement of Rescorla haters.
I'd get VERY worried if you started a movement of Rescorla haters.
If I thought they were really going to kill me, I'd probably either
try to stop it by "whatever means necessary" or run like a son
of a bitch. You are perhaps familiar with the phrase "clear and present
danger."

> By
>the time that I had acquired 30 million members and we finally got around
>to looking for you, it might be tad late for you to be taking any action.
Probably true.

>Did the Jews have any right to criticize the Nazis before they started
>getting stuffed into gas chambers?  How much before?  IMO, this planet
>will never see peace until we learn to fight bigotry and hatred at its
>source, rather than waiting for it to escalate into warfare.
You misunderstand, sir. You're permitted to criticize as much as
you want. What I am disagreeing with is your characterization of
this teaching as "morally wrong" just as I disagree with the characterization
of Rescorlas as "people who should be killed" and the characterization
of gays as "sick, immoral, etc." 

The remedy for speech we find hateful is more speech, not suppression.
If you do not disagree with this, then I suspect we do not disagree at
all.

>>>  That it is wrong to teach kids things that destroy their self
>>>  esteem and lead them to suicide?
>>This part.
>>After all, it would seem to me that if one indeed believed
>>that homosexuality was sinful and imperilled another's soul,
>>he would have a duty to inform him of that, at the very least.
>It seems that you have a double standard here.
Not at all. I probably have explained myself badly, however.

>  You think that because
>the bigots think their bigotry is moral, it's perfectly ok for them to
>preach it to their kids (and everybody else), even if this means the
>suicide of the kids.  Yet you are not willing to allow gays to invoke
>morality, or anything else, to defend themselves.  Do gays need a holy
>book that they can thump before they're allowed to fight back?
The problem here is that you are getting confused with what
"ok" means.

1) I think that whatever you choose to do is morally acceptable, because
I don't believe in morality, so I couldn't possibly judge it
as unacceptable.
By this standard, I do not believe that either bigotry or homosexuality
is "wrong"

2) I don't believe in morality myself, so I think that gays
are wrong in invoking morality to fight bigotry. I also think that
the bigots are wrong in invoking their morality to justify their
bigotry.
Therefore, in this instance, I think that both groups are "incorrect".

I have criticized both assertions in this forum, however right now
the predominant voices are those who are claiming that bigotry is
"immoral" so my skepticism is directed at them. Do I really need
to preface every criticism I make of someone supporting gay rights with
"I support gay rights but ..."

-Ekr





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.