HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: sex with gay and bi men (part 3)
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:45:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul31.004527.8591
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

(I'm afraid that people won't read this, because it's lengthy and boring.
Please read the end - that's where the good stuff is.)

In article <1992Jul31.000400.6392@cis.ohio-state.edu> amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (the well girded Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
>>But I still do not understand why the Gabe/Biff stereotypes are made at all.
>everybody wants to simplify the mind-boggling complexity of things.

right. stereotypes serve a useful function.

>gabe is hypermasculine in one sense but feminine because he
>ferociously desires men; the fictional biff is ordinarily
>guy-next-door masculine, because he loves women, but he's still
>feminine, because he's queer, maybe even hyperfeminine, because he
>likes women so much.

These descriptions make sense in a very limited way, according to
society's restricted definitions of the terms "feminine" and
"masculine". They tell me how you see sexual roles, as evaluated by
the labels of heterosexual society.

But you extrapolated from these banal sexual descriptions to other
phenomena: communication of what one sexually desires, being
hyper-active, interested in figuring out motivations, etc. 

I think this extrapolation from sexual roles to social roles is
completely meaningless. And, my own experience directly contradicts
the trends drawn out in Gabe/Biff (or Jojo's posting).

>real people are dotted all over the [gender description] map.  which
>is not to say that this is the right map.  i'm saying it's the
>*wrong* map.

Any map like this is going to fail without very careful consideration.
Most of my notions about gender roles ("real man", "nurturing woman",
"thoughtful", "caring") are based on years of heterosexual
brainwashing. And I know that much of straight training about gender
and sexuality is not useful - in fact, some of it is downright evil.

Isn't it better to completely ignore terms like "masculine" and
"feminine" for purposes of useful description? The only meanings they
have are those that heterosexual society has created, and those
meanings are oppressive. Why continue to use them?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                                            Love under will
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc,men,soc.women,soc.bi,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ccwinter@iastate.edu (Cowboy)
Subject: TV mail list
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:13:45 GMT


I would like to start a mail list for crossdessers.  Just fill out the 
form below and I will then mail the names and results of the questions to
everyone.

User Name________________________State___________City________________________

Name used wile crossdressed__________________Sex________

Are you Bi, gay, or neither____________________

Clothes worn__________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

Married ______________________Children________________

Other (pierces, tattoos, ect)_________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________

Rachel



Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,talk.politics.misc,rec.arts.tv.uk,alt.individualism,rec.arts.tv.soaps,alt.activism
From: jql@cypress.com (Julie Lewis--Applications)
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Reply-To: jql@cypress.com.UUCP (Julie Lewis--Applications)
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor, San Jose, CA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:51:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.023738.469@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes:
>In article <l76kmjINN2gt@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>#In article <2A733D51.5586@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
>#cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) blathers about
>#something that I decided to delete.
>#Drop dead, asshole.
>
>And exactly how, pray tell, was Mr. Edman supposed to know that you
>later decided to delete the article?


Excuse me.......
Can you folks please take this to email?

Or at least cut some of the groups out of these posts.  
Those of us in rec.arts.tv.soaps have plenty of posts to get through
without a bunch of gay bashing/pride arguments.

This is not a flame, merely a calm request.



-- 
Julie Lewis                                    jql@cypress.com
Boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no
choreography, and the dancers hit each other.
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Xaviera
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:08:53 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

tovah@panix.com (Tovah Hollander) writes:

>>
>>	xaviera hollender calls your house?
>>

>Ahem!  That's "hollAnder"!

>-- Tovah Hollander
>   (a real person and not a figment of Cindy Tittle Moore's .sig)


	sorry!

	first i chronically misspell ailsa's name, & now this.

	annemarie
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the b-word
Date: 30 Jul 92 03:27:56 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <28JUL92.18364204@enh.nist.gov> aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>>Sim looks like Jesus would if he were a '90's queer,

I never thought of Jesus as being particularly attractive..

>when my hair loses shape and falls over my face I'm told I look more
>like Cousin It.

But why would your hair lose shape and fall over your face, unless you
were looking down or something?

>Many said I looked least like everyone expected, whatever that means.

I assumed that Sim was 45, conventional, an established meterologist.
He's not 45 or conventional - he's a different sort of interesting.

>>There's a dearth of chicks, though...
>Three eventually showed.  Wish there were more...

I wish there were more women, too, although this wishing is sort of
useless - just white male guilt. Is it a problem? Are there women who
did not come to the con, knowing they'd be outnumbered 20 to 1?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/  Look, over there, it's a real dog and it's really talking
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: sbgreene@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Steven Greene)
Subject: Re: Gay Eagle Scout files suit against Boy Scouts
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:33:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.144717.25063@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>I don't think this suit is going to work since the scouts are a religious
>institution. Of course having the suit dismissed on this grounds will
>give a precident for removing any state support of the scouts on the
>basis of seperation of church and state. The scouts can't have it
>both ways.

Except you forgot that:

1) The BSA has never claimed exemption as a religious institution
   in any of the suits against them.

2) The Law Against Discrimination section that applies to public
   accommodations does not exempt religious institutions.  That's
   one of the main points of the Rutherford Institute's challenge
   to the law.  (Although New Jersey's position, shared by the
   ACLU, is that religious institutions are not public accommodations
   and are therefore not subject to the provisions of this section
   in the first place.  The law does not define "public accommodation";
   it only lists some examples, none of which are religious.)
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: British Pronounciation
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:14:44 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Jul21.155529.19484@gordian.com>
mike@gordian.com (Michael A.  Thomas) writes:

>  I knew a teacher who had a kid by the name of Adam Baum. 
>Poor kid, mean parents.

Shoulda mentioned this before: Bill Lear, of Lear Jet fame,
had a son named King and a daughter named Crystal Shanda (no
kidding!).

Then there's the famous Dallasites, sisters named Hogg: Ima
and Yura (truth, I swear; I was even introduced to Ima
once).

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Chaos and disruption
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:18:51 GMT
Organization: 3L Ltd, Peel House, Ladywell, Livingston EH54 6AG, UK


My USEnet connection seems to be messed up again.  What's
more, my posting mechanism hasn't been working too well
these last couple of weeks and fell over completely the
other day, with the loss of several days' news.  And
finally, 3L is on the move.  We lose net and e-mail
connections sometime on Friday, to reappear at our new
office in Edinburgh sometime next week, possibly as late as
Thursday.  All this applies to other 3L people as well.
Apologies to people who are expecting to hear from me.

--John
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Modern Family Values
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 02:11:52 GMT

In article <m0mCIiu-0000DsC@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com writes:

>Membership could/should include:
>...
>any others who support the idea of the modern family view...

I think I side with Jake on this one.  The concept of "the modern
family view" fills me with dread -- are we tossing out an outdated,
rigid concept of "family" only to replace it with an equally rigid
definition that will soon become equally outdated and exclusive?

I would sooner support "Modern Families' Values" than "Modern Family
Values."  If anything.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You mean there are TWO of you, Pierce?
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  God help us all."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: golds_ss@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Stuart S Goldstone)
Subject: Re: alt.wanted.moslem.gay
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 06:59:43 GMT

In article <5dpm=!l.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>
>Many of you may already know this, but a new newsgroup has been created
>called 'alt.wanted.moslem.gay'.  Already the more 'fundamentalist' of Moslems
>are asking for this group to be pulled or canceled.  It's a very blatant
>form of net.censorship which should be stopped.


	I noticed this newsgroup, and I think the discussion going on there
is pretty funny...  The Moslems there who are against the newsgroup say that
since homosexuality is incompatible with their teachings, one can't be both
Moslem and gay.  They seem to be unable to understand "If you don't like it,
don't read it".
-- 
         Stuart S. Goldstone	      |      "Christianity is like a shoe;
Internet: golds_ss@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu |	       if you don't fit into it,
       BITNET: golds_ss@jhuvms	      |	        we cut your toes off!"
         GEnie: S.GOLDSTONE1          |
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the b-word
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:45:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Jul21.174537.25142
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Jul21.155006.27282@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>To wit, there are too many people in the world.  There are too many people
>in the world because so many people think having their own babies is
>really neato.  This "breeder" mentality is driving overpopulation of our
>planet.  Everyone who thinks that having their own kids is just too
>cool for words and they can't imagine not having kids of their own are 
>part of the problem.  That makes you part of the problem.  You bred and
>made more people, deal with the fact that some of us don't appreciate that.

I dunno, I can't get too enthusiatic over this argument.
It's hard to talk about "overpopulation" as if it were a
single monolithic entity with a single solution (not breeding).
It also seems terribly callous (and irrelevant) to someone
in Ailsa's situation.  She deserves no less to be proud of her
efforts in bringing up her child than you do for disparaging it.
I knwo if someone tried that argument on me, were I a parent,
I'd dismiss it out of hand.

(I know some people are going to think that this is a turn-around
from my comments on the use of the word "breeder", but actually
it's nothing of the sort.  I suggest that if someone does think
this, then I still haven't made myself understood.)

>While I would definitely prefer to see more lesbian mothers than bigot
>mothers, I'd rather see less mothers all around.

"Fewer" mothers and fathers.  "Less" mothering and fathering. :-)

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Subject: Re: Lost Language of Cranes question
Originator: jns@rac2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyle, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:44:50 GMT


Nelson Minar (nelson@reed.edu) wrote:

> I've watched the Lost Language of Cranes twice now, and I really liked
> it. I experienced a feeling of gayspace, a thing I'm only now getting
> used, and never before on television! ....
 
I finally saw it last week, with much the same feeling.

Melodramatic?  Oh, mercy, yes.  But I enjoy a bit of
emotional manipulation now and again.  Besides, it was
a cut above most of those tragicomedy commercials for
long-distance telephoning or decaffeinated coffee.

Whether the film has enduring qualities is one thing;
but I can't deny that, on American television, it was
an *event*.  Never in my memory have so many men, men
together, been seen before.  Maybe some of the best
scenes were cut, but suggestively naked men in bed
together is just not the done thing.  And they kissed,
actually kissed, more than one couple, more than once!
In most ways, too, the father and his lover simply did
not fit the stereotype of gay men that most of the
straight viewers [if any were still watching] would
be expecting.

But enough.  What surprised me most was what came 
*before* the program on the station I was watching 
[WETA, Washington, DC].  Usually, *any* program
that might use the word 'homosexual', or even suggest
that it might, gets the "Viewer Discretion Advised"
sign flashed at the beginning, with words to the
effect that this program might be really offensive
so turn it off now.  This annoys me [of course],
but....

At the beginning of "Lost Language of Cranes", we
did *not* get the advisory sign.  Instead, a still
shot from the opening credits was shown, with a
voiceover I found so remarkable [for WETA at least]
that I have transcribed it in full:

		"This drama explores a range of issues:
	self-discovery and betrayal, familial commitment and 
	love, and homosexuality, through the story of two men, 
	a father and son.
		"Although contemporary and frank in its approach
	and content, the themes are nonetheless universal."

My eyebrows are still raised.  [No further comment.]

--jns
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: spaz@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Trebor Strunderthuck)
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:45:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.130203.18802@uwm.edu> spaz@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Trebor Strunderthuck) writes:
>----------------spaz.csd4.csd.uwm.edu------------------
>{ I am one husky bear cub in love!!!!!!!              }
>{ YAHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!              }
>-------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I am new here....(and I'm thinking I should have posted this
mind boggling question on a rec.music.video) But considering I'm into
music and I'm gay...this place seemed appropriate. I'd give out my bear
codes....but I lost mine and I can't remember them anyway...(I also heard
there are new ones).....And by the way.....BOB DONAHUE? ARE YOU LISTENING??


THANK YOU!!!!! I OWE YOU!!!! 

Laterz,

The Husky Cub


-- 
----------------spaz.csd4.csd.uwm.edu------------------
{ I am one husky bear cub in love!!!!!!!              }
{ YAHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!              }
-------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32722 talk.politics.misc:36250
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Private Discrimination
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:41:49 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <2532@nlsun1.oracle.nl>, jdurbin@nl.oracle.com (Jason Durbin) writes:
> I need some clarification of T. Archer's position and of the Libertarian
> position on anti-discrimination laws.
> 
> Aren't such laws society's way of saying that this type of behavior
> is something up with which it will not put? The so-called
> representatives of society decide that, to the best of their 
> knowledge, most members of the society do not condone this
> behavior and therefore provide sanctions to discourage it?

Yes.  Now substitute the word "sodomy" for "antidiscrimination."
Does still sound so attractive?  If you aren't prepared to leave
other people alone, you are in no position to insist on your
right to be left alone.

> Jason Durbin


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Engineer bashing
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:33:00 GMT

dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) wrote: 
->eric.hunt@matrix.sbs.com (Eric Hunt) writes:
->: It's called "Go to a Liberal Arts College" - I know, I'm at one. I'm CIS, 
->: but the mind reels at the humanities and arts classes I'm required to 
->: take.
->
->Colleges which teach humanities on a level higher than "basketweaving"
->are generally thought to be _good_ places.  What's your problem with it?

probably can't weave; uses a ronco weav-o-matic.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elee74l@Rosie.UH.EDU
Subject: Re: the new innocent
Reply-To: elee74l@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:15:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.210432.15332@news.Hawaii.Edu>, johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan) writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.055526.4911@menudo.uh.edu> elee74l@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>>
>>By the way, the article says "heterosexual anal intercourse", doesn't it
>>mean male's penis inserts into female's anal?  So where did you get this
>>"heterosexual *GAY* Sex" idea???
>
>He said "Gay Sex (TM)", not "Gay Sex."

Hmmm.... Why don't you tell me what (TM) means.
	OH!  While you are at it, tell me what BTW is.  (-8
>
>>Well.... I guess it can mean female brings over a fake penis and insert into
>>male's anal, but that's HIGHLY unusual.
>
>Speak for yourself, girl. :-)

Tsk, tsk...  I don't think I would ever request a girl to do me this favor. 
She might think I am freaking wierd.  Beside, I don't want to scare her off
during an orgasm, do I? (-8

While reading this, I keep imagining a phone conversation that goes:

       	" Hey, Cindy.  Before you come over, bring with you a fake penis.  Mine
can't reach my ass.  c(-8 "

(No offense to any Cindy in this group)  (:

Ken
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: crossposting is bad (was Re: Gay martial artists)
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:35:40 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Jul31.023347.9421@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.010820.26801@cs.mun.ca> some clueless het writes:
>>[who cares, go read it?]

Ob*Snap*: he doesn't know how to spell, edit his text, or construct
pseudo-grammatical sentences, either.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/     In a totally sane society, madness is the only freedom
From: sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: crossposting is bad (was Re: Gay martial artists)
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:44:07 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul31.023347.9421@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
[wrt a ramble by a straight reader of rec.martial-arts who saw the "Gay
martial artists" thread, which I skipped except todiscover the context
of the above article:]

> See, now if someone hadn't decided that a crosspost between a martial
> arts newsgroup and soc.motss might have been fun, I wouldn't have read
> this message from some person in need of education, and my life would
> be much happier.
> 
> I've got nothing against people who just haven't thought through
> issues like coming out, but I really wish they weren't babbling about
> in soc.motss. Maybe what we need is a soc.motss.novices.

Am I the only person who has a wee bit of trouble with the notion of banning
all crossposting?

On the one hand, I've spent a good deal of time wading through pointless
"So's your mom"-type exchanges from people who picked up a soc.motss thread
through cross-posting.  For those people (and we know who they are), I have
no use.

On the other hand:

1) If, indeed, We Are Everywhere(tm), why shouldn't a motss'er who has an
interest in, for example, navel lint collecting, and sees a post on soc.motss
from a person who's collected navel lint for 20 years, feel free to ask -- on
rec.navel-lint -- whether others exist like him.  I don't think we can assume
every GLBO Usenetter reads soc.motss.

2) I do think some of these clueless types (I would consider the poster
mentioned in Nelson's article an example of such) are not necessarily hostile,
and while it is not necessarily the purpose of this newsgroup to provide 
enlightenment for the benighted, if they understand what we're about and are
genuinely interested in learning more, I think such people should be treated
graciously and civilly.  The Neil Postlethwaites of this world, on the other
hand, should be told to go fuck themselves via e-mail (or if that doesn't
work, via a posting to the offending newsgroup only.)

I did find some of the material in those mutant threads interesting, and I
wouldn't have found out about it if I had not seen it here, as I do not 
often peruse some of these other groups.  If one purpose of the Usenet is to
increase knowledge through cross-fertilization, I would not be so quick to
shut down one such avenue.

___________________
Sandy F. Smith, Jr.
Graduate Division, School of Arts and Sciences, University of Pennsylvania
16 College Hall, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6378.  (Opinions mine, not Penn's)
Internet: sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu
 
"The God I serve don't make no trash!" -- Rev. Emanuel Cleaver, Mayor, City
of Kansas City, Mo.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies)
Subject: Re: Olympics
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:42:06 GMT

rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>> shore@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Melinda Shore) writes:
>>
>>Another gay U.S. rider is dressage star Robert Dover.  The
>>dressage competition is next week.

>Anyone notice does he dressage on the left or the right?

Well, I dunno, but *I'll* be watching his counter-canters.  He can strike
off into trot at point H with *me* anytime.

--Brent