HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Plots and soforth on TrekMUSE
From: jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:43:41 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.mud.tiny
Organization: /u/student/jamie/.organization

In article <1ggo9sINN3pr@chervil.csv.warwick.ac.uk>
phuag@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr C J Tilbury) writes:

[Explanation deleted.]

   The ranking system on muses is primarily another way of distributing
   the powers available to a character. So, whereas in a MUSH you have your 
   ROYALTY and WIZARD flags, in a vanilla muse you have your Visitor, Citizen, 
   Administrator, and probably a few others I've forgotten about, right up to 
   Director. 

   On TrekMUSE, this system has been expanded, to incorporate all the
   "standard" naval ranks. Having so many ranks results in powers
   being distributed more evenly, as opposed to the 'all-or-almost
   nothing' system that can tend to exist on some other mu*'s.

   Dave was not talking about IC power when he refered to the ranking
   system, he was refering to Muse powers, such as being able to
   examine/alter others object, etc. This is something that needs to
   be regulated via code.

Ah, well I can say something here. For me, the MU* world quite nicely
divides into two groups: those who do effectively anything, but won't
because they are responsible, and those who have limited powers, which
are all the same. I think that, in my system this would work.

However, having lots of ranks is a very convenient idea, I agree (now
that I know what it is! :). Also, I'm sure it works very well. My only
argument with it is that it is almost too convenient - it might not
quite be able to model as many situations as I might like. The use of
@force I don't like, as I said earlier, and what is the basis behind
giving higher ranks more power? In the end it must surely come down to
whatever things the lowest rank can do. That is why I'm happy with two
divisions - those who are in effect gods, and those who are mere
mortals. Any divisions the mortals dream up are strictly artificial
and in their own minds only.

Otherwise it sounds like a wonderful system, and is perhaps a more
cooperative one than most.

   >knew that the other 497 members of the crew would agree with the
			^^^
   If only. Try about 8, including Captain.

Details! :-)

[Example room deleted.]

Cute and convenient, yes. But I wouldn't mind looking at each one in
turn to see what badges/insignia she is wearing and deduce their rank
from that (it allows people to steal uniforms and masquerade, for a
start - or can this be done under the system?). Then again, I also
don't believe you should know people's names automatically, so it
might just be me.

Thank you for the post, it certainly clarified things for me.

Jamie
From: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: MOO works out of the box (was Re: More Thoughts on the social MU* status quo)
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:03:53
Organization: Department Of Computing, Imperial College, London.
	<1992Dec8.024136.17384@athena.mit.edu>
	<MJB.92Dec8171837@oak45.doc.ic.ac.uk>
	<1992Dec11.000223.20282@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: finch.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: yduj@Gnu.ai.mit.edu's message of Fri, 11 Dec 1992 00:02:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.000223.20282@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> yduj@Gnu.ai.mit.edu (Judy Anderson) writes:
> In article <MJB.92Dec8171837@oak45.doc.ic.ac.uk> mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:
>>[servers like MOO are rather bare-bones]
> Actually, LambdaMOO comes with the LambdaCore, a rather complex set of
> existing objects and verbs from which it is reasonable to build a
> world without an enormous amount of substrate coding.  Sure, you'll
> have to write code to support your world, but by no means are you
> starting "from scratch".  And if what you want to do is really
> different from the LambdaCore, then indeed you might be better off
> starting from scratch.  But if you want to do something really
> different, probably you didn't want *any* of the existing servers such
> as MUSE, so you can't really complain that LambdaCore isn't serving
> your needs.

Well ... what I meant was that a *server* after the LambdaMOO fashion
is very low-level, and that writing a db *from scratch* was therefore
quite hard. I am, of course, aware that if there is a pre-written
skeleton database like LambdaCore available, things aren't much harder
if you don't mind a world that works in the same underlying manner.

The problem occurs with a new server, for which *nobody* has written a
worthwhile core db. This is why servers like CoolMUD are strictly for
those who have quite a bit of talent, a lot of time and a lot of
patience, until someone writes a LambdaCore for it ...

This, of course, reminds me that my own custom server which I'm
writing will need to come with something of a database, if it's to be
useful to many people ...

> Pavel Curtis has done quite a lot of work making sure that the MOO
> server *will* work out-of-the-box on a variety of systems.

Well, I *was* one of the beta-testers, yduJ. Let me add here that MOO
is probably the easiest M** server to compile that I've seen.

-Morven @ LambdaMOO

--
| Matthew J. Brown  | Dept. of Computing | If God intended for us to go to   |
| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  | Imperial College,  | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| mjb02@cc.ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate   | double-sided photocopiers.        |
| Morven on Lambda  | LONDON SW7 2AZ     |          -IC RagMag 1991/92       |
From: mjr@TIS.COM (Marcus J. Ranum)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: MOO works out of the box (was Re: More Thoughts on the social MU* status quo)
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:01:18 GMT
Reply-To: mjr@TIS.COM
Organization: Trusted Informations Systems, Inc.

mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:

>[...] This is why servers like CoolMUD are strictly for
>those who have quite a bit of talent, a lot of time and a lot of
>patience, until someone writes a LambdaCore for it ...

	This is a generic. Anyone who is planning to run a successful
MUD needs patience, and needs to be willing to pour a little time and
creative energy into it, or they're going to wind up with another
characterless set of rooms in some database someplace.
	MUDs aren't successes because of the particular server code
that is being used - they're successes if their wizards work on them and
make them interesting. Folks who complain that CoolMUD or MOO or whatnot
"aren't interesting" are probably the part of the equation that is "not
interesting" themselves.

mjr.
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.tiny:1118 rec.games.mud.misc:1626
From: dunemush@cogsci.berkeley.edu (DuneMUSH)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: NEW MUSH: DUNE! First call
Followup-To: poster
Date: 14 Dec 1992 06:33:27 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu
Originator: dunemush@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU


Ya! Ya! Yawm!
It is with great pleasure that I announce the first casting call for:

DDDDDDDD    UU      UU   NN      NN   EEEEEEEEEE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NNNN    NN   EE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN NN   NN   EE
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN  NN  NN   EEEEEEEEEE    PennMush 1.5
DD     DD   UU      UU   NN   NN NN   EE
DD     DD    UU    UU    NN    NNNN   EE
DDDDDDDD .....UUUUUU.... NN      NN   EEEEEEEEEE..............
      ..........................          .........................
   ...................................................................
 ............cogsci.berkeley.edu 4201....................................
...........................................................................


	DuneMUSH is role-playing MUSH set in the universe of
Frank Herbert's _Dune_ in the year 10,196, just after the first book, but
before _Dune Messiah_. The first event in the game will likely be
the coronation of Paul Atreides as Emperor of the Galaxy.

	The Dune RPG will be similar to the Belgariad and Mua'kaar
RPG's, but will focus more on group strategies and goals. Factions
(Atreides, the Imperium, the deposed Padishah Emperor, the Bene Gesserit,
Fremen, the Guild, the Bene Tleilax, and other friends) will struggle
for control over the galaxy and the spice.

	Dune will open to the public some time in January, but we'd like
to recruit some major characters now. If you think you could do one of
these characters justice, send email to dunemush@cogsci.berkeley.edu.
You'll be asked to answer a short quiz about the book in order to receive
your character.

Characters available:

Fremen:
	Chani, Sayyadina and Consort of Paul-Muad'Dib
	Harah, wife of Stilgar.
	Shishakli, Water Master of Sietch Tabr
	Otheym and Korba, Fedaykin Captains
Corrino:
	Princess Irulan, Bene Gesserit, wife of Paul-Muad'Dib
	Chalice, Wensicia, Josifa, Rugi (daughters of Shaddam IV)
Others:
	Gaius Helen Mohiam, Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit
	Staban Tuek, smuggler chief at Arrakis
	Count Hasimir Fenring, friend of Shaddam IV, B.G. trained killer
	Lady Margot Fenring, Bene Gesserit, wife of Count Fenring
	Iakin Nefud, Captain of Harkonnen forces (in hiding)
	Feyd-Ruatha Harkonnen's bastard daughter (undercover)
  

	"Ya hya chouhada!"

	- Paul@DuneMUSH


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Paul@DuneMUSH                 |          Alan Schwartz         
Belkira@Belgariad II             | alansz@cogsci.berkeley.edu
 Indena@Mua'kaar                 | UC Berkeley                        
Javelin@Belgariad, and elsewhere | Cognitive Psychology        
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying and Puzzlesolving
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:35:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.203404.6606@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:
>As long as you assume a different persona on a social MU*, that IS roleplaying.
>Roleplaying is just what the name implies...playing a role.
>     However, what I think you mean when you say it "isn't roleplaying, it's a 
>social MU*" is that it isn't a *scenario driven* game.  It doesn't require 
>solving puzzles or overcoming opposition, it is just the roleplaying part of 
>RPGs.  Roleplaying doesn't require a scenario, but the two have become linked 
>in the minds of some.
>     However, good roleplaying will usually tell a story and generate its own 
>scenarios.  Believe it or not, you don't have to set up a puzzle to get a 
>storyline out of players.  Give them the toys, the players will do the rest.
>     As an example, I point to the last few weeks on TrekMUSE 
>(nebula.lib.vt.edu 1701).  The directors didn't set up any tinyplots for 
>players to run through, yet some rather dramatic moments have occurred.  We 
>have had plots to steal starships broken up, rash captains violating treaties 
>and being branded traitors after seeking revenge, several near-misses with all 
>out war, suspicion of an external force manipulating events (turned out to be 
>just sloppy debriefing, but it was a scary prospect for a while), and several 
>plots-within-plots running, all without any direct intervention from the people
>running the MUSE.  By staying in character and reacting that way to events, we 
>got a whole lot of roleplaying done.  And this should work for other MU*s as 
>well.  Just get people to develop characters, then toss out stimuli and let 
>them react.
>     Dave Van Domelen, oh the roleplay we got out of the simple placement of a 
>new trading outpost in the wrong place....

I'm curious.  What exactly *did* happen?

I tend to shy away from things Star Trek-oriented, so I've never visited
TrekMUSE.  For that matter, being a TinyMUCK wizard, I've not done much on
any MUSH or MUSE besides chatter... so I don't really know how the
roleplaying you describe in your post works.  If the directors aren't
controlling things, how do you avoid having everyone try to start their
own tinyplot?  Not knowing any better, I'd assume that everyone wants to
play the main character in whatever tinyplot they're in and wants to have
"creative control."  I'd also guess that people try to start tinyplots and
see them peter out as other tinyplots gain adherents.  This is all
speculation... how *does* it work for you?  Perhaps you could use the
trading outpost as an example.

Joel "pork shoulder? nitrates? give me a chicken pot pie anytime" Furr
furrjk@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: gohn@ecf.toronto.edu (GOHN IVAN LLOYD)
Subject: Kludge World - Doc.2
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:55:11 GMT

My intention was not to misinform the readers here.  I was
simply posting what I was told and nothing more.  I mentioned
that the information may not have been accurate, and it seemed that
many could not read.

My intention was, however, to give access to those who are truely
interesting and mudding to try the site and above ALL to enjoy and
have fun.

I have NO need of people entering the mud and critisizing my postins
since I ALWAYS point out that I may be in error.

Sorry for the Inconvience

Midnight
From: tps@jptcs.COM (Tim Sailer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: MOO works out of the box (was Re: More Thoughts on the social MU* status quo)
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:14:45 GMT
Organization: JPT Computer Solutions
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Marcus J. Ranum (mjr@TIS.COM) wrote:
: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:
: 
: >[...] This is why servers like CoolMUD are strictly for
: >those who have quite a bit of talent, a lot of time and a lot of
: >patience, until someone writes a LambdaCore for it ...
: 
: 	This is a generic. Anyone who is planning to run a successful
: MUD needs patience, and needs to be willing to pour a little time and
: creative energy into it, or they're going to wind up with another
: characterless set of rooms in some database someplace.
: 	MUDs aren't successes because of the particular server code
: that is being used - they're successes if their wizards work on them and
: make them interesting. Folks who complain that CoolMUD or MOO or whatnot
: "aren't interesting" are probably the part of the equation that is "not
: interesting" themselves.

OK.. everyone got me interested in LambdaMOO, so I got a copy, hacked
it to compile, and it gives me a memory allocation error when I
connect with the client. Has anyone gotten this to compile and run on
SCO Unix?

-- 
Tim Sailer
JPT Computer Solutions - SCO Sales/Consulting/Administration and Mangling
Port Jefferson Station, NY
(516) 331-9001
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Saturday, 12 Dec 1992 16:20:46 EST
From: <IO10966@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Roleplaying and Puzzlesolving

 trekmuse is down now tho :)
 silly silly place it is to :) its supposed to be up on monday I think
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.tiny:1131 rec.games.mud.misc:1651
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: MUGs are *not* irrelevant! [SURVEY]
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:24:03 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines

In article <MJB.92Dec10165048@oak41.doc.ic.ac.uk>, mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:
> In article <1g582jINNb8t@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey) writes:

>> He must have forgotten his Brit-to-English dictionary that day. ;-)
> <chuckles again> I think 'english' is a confusing name to give the
> language spoken by the majority of Americans ... ;-)

How very true.

----------------
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get,
Oh why can't the the English learn...to...

Set a good example to people whose English is painful to your ears
(The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.)
There even are places where English completely disappears.
(In America, they haven't used it for years.)

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak,
Norwegians learn Norwegian, the Greeks are taught their Greek,
In France, every Frenchman knows his language from A-to-Z,

(The French don't care what they do, actually,
				 as long as they pronounce it properly.)

Arabians learn Arabian[sic] with the speed of summer lightning,
And Hebrews learn it backwards, which is absolutely frightening,
But use proper English -- you're regarded as a freak,

Oh why can't the English,

Why can't the English,

	Learn

		To

			Speak!

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: mcvos@cs.vu.nl (Vos MC)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying and Puzzlesolving
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:41:54 GMT

tpgemma@eos.ncsu.edu (TIMOTHY PETER GEMMA) writes:
: 
: As Dave said, role-playing is quite possible on MU*s.  Also on TrekMUSE, I find
: people are quite capable of playing roles different than their true personalities.
: I myself play 2 characters (somewhat frowned upon considering the state of the
: database, but hey) and each has a distinct personality.  Of course, I haven't 
: tried to steal any ships yet, but my Independent character is sure getting
: restless.

I've got several characters on the same MU*. They are all completely
different, and can even have arguements with each other. On of my
characters almost killed another of my chars.
I think my characters are quite independent of myself. I mean, I have
to play them, but they can do things I never thought they would do,
they can fall in love without me feeling anything, while their love
is real (as far as love can be real in a MU*).


Great Greetings,
mcv


(mcvos@cs.vu.nl)
From: mkim@dcdlaa (Michael Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Roleplaying and Puzzlesolving
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:11:07 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Batavia IL
NNTP-Posting-Host: dcdlaa.fnal.gov
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4


Yes, that's the point I was trying to make... By me, role-playing is exactly
what it sounds like.  Playing a role.

Mike

+-------------------------------------------mkim@imsa.edu::IMSAMUG----------+
|Michael Kim, 1505 W. Sullivan Rd, Aurora, IL, 60506-1039  Ph:(708) 801-6529|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
     "This footnote has the sole purpose to confuse the reader." --E. Teller
From: chad@quality.ta.ford.com (Chad Childers)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Roleplaying and Puzzlesolving
Date: 14 Dec 1992 14:37:35 GMT
Organization: Technical Affairs, Ford Motor Company
Reply-To: Chad Childers <chad@quality.ta.ford.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms035.pms.ford.com
X-Disclaimer: Not an official spokesman for Ford Tech Affairs
Originator: chad@pms035

>I myself play 2 characters (somewhat frowned upon considering the state of the
>database, but hey) and each has a distinct personality.  Of course, I haven't 

Please, please, get rid of one of your characters.  We are really going to
lose TrekMUSE if the DB doesn't get under control.  The directors are
considering registration for any character when it comes back up, and one of
them even suggested nuking ALL the characters of anyone who has multiples.
Nebula has to start running Oracle for the library in January, and Trek
takes up 25 Meg of RAM - guess which will go if we don't behave?

>tried to steal any ships yet, but my Independent character is sure getting
>restless.

Stealing ships isn't as easy as it used to be... almost everyone has good
security systems now.  We Ferengi stole three Fed ships in the good old days,
because humans didn't have enough sense to put any security on their bridges.
I particularly liked the time a Fed ship started attacking a Ferengi, and we
stole the USS Lexington, got it in really close, and destroyed the Fed.

-Chadnibal
-- 
Chad Childers                            Work: chad@quality.ta.ford.com
FMEAplus Project Leader                  Home: chad@deep.mi.org
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: amolitor@nmsu.edu (Andrew Molitor)
Subject: Re: Server Question. (was: Re: More Thoughts etc.. )
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:39:42 GMT

In article <1g1ohsINNb83@coral.bucknell.edu>
	lesher@capella.cs.bucknell.edu (T. Lesher) writes:
> [referring to the MUSH 'scripting' language]
>It's a good language, even if it _does_
>look, as one has suggested, like "line noise". :)

	Actually, it's a terrible language. It is nearly impossible,
I think, to understand it fully. Concurrency is a bitch.


>I think, in these cases, that the opposite question is relevant:  is
>there anything that a clever MUSH programmer can't do that you could
>do in hardcoding?

	This is easy ;) 'Yes.' My fav example is digital signatures,
with the obvious uses in authentication. The only good ways I am aware
of for doing this require arbitrary precision interger arithmetic,
which is really really really hard in MUSH, and pretty easy in C.

	Andrew

>Tim Lesher <lesher@bucknell.edu>
>
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Plots and soforth on TrekMUSE
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:17:27 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

Okay, on TrekMUSE we have a 17 step rank system, all the way from Visitor to 
Director.  Each rank has progressively more powers, and certain levels of 
authority over those under it.  There are also @organizations, which limit the 
power of people to the org they are in and those subordinate to it.  Thus a 
Captain attached to the Fleet org can @fo and otherwise order around anyone on 
any ship in the fleet, but cannot @fo ship captains (unless they aren't 
actually Captains in rank).  But a Fleet Admiral attached to a single ship 
can't affect anyone not on that ship's crew.  Of course, Fleet Admirals usually
get attached to central Empire orgs.  Thus, to start a plot, it has to be one 
within your MUSE power to pull off.  A bunch of Crew can plot to steal a ship, 
but if they want to be safe from mangling after that, they have to get a 
foreign Director to give them haven by @detaching them and putting them in a 
new org.  If they fail to do that, or ask the wrong empire for sanctuary, their
plan is doomed.  The higher your rank and better-positioned your org, the more 
complex the plot you can pull off.  But since only the Directors have powers 
over all empires (rightly so, the Emperor of the Ferengi can't do squat to 
anyone not in the Ferengi Empire), you need to do some IC negotiating and 
cultivating of spies.
     What the directors mainly do is provide contexts for events, such as 
placing the Trading Planet Capstan halfway between (and very near to) the 
Romulan and Klingon empires.  Ship captains have just enough autonomy to hang
themselves with, and border skirmishes break out.
     Meanwhile, there is an economy that is based on trading and gives empires 
money to run their fleets.  If you want safe trade, you have to make treaties 
with other powers.  I'm the head of the Romulan diplomatic corps, and I've 
arranged a trade pact with the Ferengi and an alliance with the Gorn.  Thus, 
the Romulans are very rich, since we have two safe partners.  On the other 
hand, the Klingons were antagonising everyone, so the three of us declared an 
Embargo against the Klingons, which hurt them quite a bit.
     Overall, involvement in plots is greater with greater rank, but even 
newbies can get in on the 'fun' of a full scale alert.
     Dave Van Domelen, J'Mgandr tr'Voltak of the Kiith Mrevhoqq'ghi
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny