From: brinkman@edseq4.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Does theory of evolution affect belief in God?
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:24:52 GMT


   In article <1992Apr6.062118.16530@morrow.stanford.edu> 
salem@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Bruce Salem) responds...

>brinkman@edseq4.llnl.gov writes:

>   In article <salem.702101753@pangea.Stanford.EDU> salem@pangea.Stanford.EDU 
>(Bruce Salem) writes...

>>   Now, this is a claim you have made repeatedly (i.e., Christians, Jews,
>>and Moslems tend to be bigotted), Bruce.  Would you care to provide any
>>evidence for this claim?

>	Where have you been? I have given my argument before. Since I
>have made the claim before, had you not followed it?

   I've been right here.  Since you seem to have missed the point, let me
reiterate.  I would be especially grateful if you would provide EVIDENCE for
your assertion.  I have followed your argument, but I fail to see that it
provides any evidence that what you are claiming is correct (although it
does provide evidence that what you are claiming may be plausible).

>	I have said in the past that I agreed with Joeseph Campbell's
>criticism of Christianity and the other religions of the Near East
>that they have developed too concrete and autoritariann view of their
>sacred books. This leads directly to Creationism as a literal taking of
>Biblical symbols as historical facts.

   Fine.  Now would you care to provide any evidence that Joseph Cambell's
criticisms in this regard are correct?  I agree they are nice "this could be
the case for these reasons" stories, but I would like evidence that this is
indeed the case (i.e., that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are primary
causes of bogotry).

>>  Since you agree that there are many moderate
>>people in all three faiths, pointing to immoderate people will not suffice
>>(after all, who are we to believe really represents the true tradition of
>>Christianity, Judaism, and Islam?).

>	I am saying that the tendency to the immoderate behavior is
>integral to the operation of ideas in these faiths, not that all
>of the faithful were immoderate. But there are no checks against such
>extremeism. 

   Once again, could you provide evidence of this assertion?  Without evidence
couldn't one just as easily argue, "I am saying that the tendency to the
moderate behavior is integral to the operation of ideas in these faiths, not
that all of the faithful were moderate.  There are no checks, of course, 
against extremism."?  Once again, you seem to be confusing plausibility with
evidence.

   Bruce, I guess the upshot of this is that I see no difference between your
claim that Christianity, Judaism, and/or Islam causes bigotry, and the common
Creationist cant that evolution causes atheism.  In both case:

1) One can point to individuals that refute the argument.

2) The basis is a plausibility argument on motivating factors.

3) The claimed results are nothing more than fear mongering (don't trust 
   evolution it leads to the breakdown of the family/don't trust Christianity 
   it leads to bigotry).

In fact, for fun you can take your following statement...

>	What nonsense! It seems that the Creationism attitude, intolerance
>of conflict with sacred texts and all, is peculiar to Christians and to
>certian American sects, in particular. All I need to find are some Christians
>who use their faith in the manner that I put forward, which reaches to the
>core of defining characteristics of Christianity, the first one I give is
>the authority of the Law contained in the Word of God, i.e. the Bible, to
>put forth a staunch authoritarian use of Scripture, and I make my point,
>which is that SOME Christians are intolerant in a way that leads directly 
>to the Creationist error. 

   And through the magic of simple textual substitution come up with the
kind of argument Creationists are noted for (Mr. Tun being merely the latest
of that sorry lot)...

   What nonsense! It seems that the materialist attitude, intolerance of the 
religious rights of others and all, is peculiar to Scientists and to certain 
biological branches, in particular.  All I need to find are some evolutionists
who use evolution in the manner that I put forward, which reaches to the core 
of the defining characteristics of evolution, the first one I give is the 
authority of Science contained in the theory of evolution, to put forth a 
staunch materialistic use of Science, and I make my point, which is that SOME 
scientists are atheistic in a way that leads directly to the evolutionist error.

   So, by your own argument, pointing out that Carl Sagan (in _Cosmos_ among 
other examples) seems to be fond of this metaphysic worldview, clearly shows 
that evolution is driven by atheism.

>> I have put forward the request, let me demonstrate one form that
>>evidence may take [1]...

>>[1] "Gallup says he has evidence that faith is good for you", George W.
>>     Cornell, Associated Press.  Quotes taken from the _TRI VALLEY HERALD_
>>     Saturday, March 14, 1992, p. A-13.

>	Poll results do not constitute good evidence unless we know in
>detail the methods used. 

   I understand this, which is why I disclaimed knowing the trustworthiness of
this study.  As to the question of whether Christianity, Judaism, and/or 
Islam led to bigotry, however, this is the only piece of anything even 
remotely resembling evidence that has been presented by either side.  As I 
stated above, it's an example of a possible useful form of evidence.  Can you
provide any evidence whatsoever for your contention beyond Campbell's "just
so" stories?

>Newspapers do a poor job of revealing how polls are taken
>and generally such reporting should be taken with a grain of salt.

   Of course, it did have a direct quote from George Gallup Jr. which stated
exactly the opposite of your contention.  Granting the usually abyssmal quality
of news paper accounts of polling procedures, at least one of the principals
(who should have some knowledge of the procedure) confirms in rough outline 
the tenor of the article.

>Bruce Salem

Matt Brinkman		brinkman@edseq1.llnl.gov