HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Lobster food for peasants ( Was: potatoes introduced in europe)
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:29:04 GMT
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Jul30.124413.16074@dragon.acadiau.ca> alan@dragon.acadiau.ca (Alan McKay) writes:
>tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:
>
>
>>julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>  
>>>I know in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
>>>it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  
>
>This reminds me of a story I heard that at the turn of the century
>lobster was regarded as food for peasants.  Can anyone verify this?
>
I've heard that too.

In Sweden up to the 19th century, a standard contract for maids or
servants promised that they would not be served salmon more than once
a day.

Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: pre-1600 Polish food (was Re: Ha!)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:49:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.185457.22781@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith) writes:
>
>Since this is the second post, I'll ask a question:
>Does anyone have any knowledge of Polish food, pre 1600? 
>I have several recipies of folk food, but they either involve
>pork (allergy) or potato (showed up after the time period I'm 
>looking for). 
>
>Anyone.......Anyone........Anyone?
>
>Andrew
>amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
>".Sig? I don't need no steenkin' .SIG!"
>

I think pork was very common in most of old Europe.  Pigs can be
be kept very happy by eating kitchen scraps.  It may be difficult
to find many non-pork meat dishes.  As for potatoes, you might
try substituting turnips.  But that brings up a question.  Was
the potato substituted willy-nilly for turnips in Europe?  I know
in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  
But why the push to grow them then?  Do they give better yields than turnips?
Do they grow places that turnips don't?  (Note:  I know absolutely
nothing about turnips).

Could you post a few of the recipes you have?  The newsgroup is kinda
lonely right now :)

Julie
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: smaxwell@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Sara Maxwell)
Subject: Re: Garam
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:59:44 GMT

In article <157semINNi3i@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> lafolle@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (90262000) writes:
>Indian spice concoctions.
>
>	The Romans (we're talking the Republic and the Empire here,
>not modern-day) were known to use a particular sauce called "garam",
>which was made from fermented fish and a few other ingredients.  Since
>learning about this sauce, I've experemented a bit with Thai cooking,
>which uses a fermented fish sauce in much the same way the Japanese
>use soy sauce.  It occurred to me that there probably wouldn't be
>a huge difference.
>
>
>	Has anyone out there experemented with Garam?  Or perhaps
>know of any Historical Roman recipies that call for it?  I'd *love*
>to try to make this work.
>

I agree that Thai fish sauce is garum, or near enough.  There are no
detailed ancient recipes for making it, but sketchy ones involve, fish
(anchovies are mentioned), salt, and time.  Num num num.  For
comparison,
there was an article in Connoisseur in the last few years on the making
of Asian (it's not just Thai) fish sauces, how there are fine family
concerns that have been making it for generations, and comparing it to
scotch.

For ancient recipes USING it, you can look in any of several modern
translations of the ancient Roman (3d c AD) coobook of Apicius.  Really
this appears to be a collection of recipes of varying ages, with the
name Apicius slapped on because he was the King Arthur of ancient
cooking--may have existed in some significant relation to his legend,
but the legend is the point.  I find that many of these recipes are
yummy--I made a whole meal, playing it safe except for a leek and lentil
porridge with wine syrup and honey and things like pennyroyal that I
assumed would be gross, but even it was good.               

In ingredient lists, the fish sauce is mentioned with other
salad-dressing type ingredients.

Have fun,

Sara
From: ccaaaxd@ucl.ac.uk (Alan Deacon)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Honey cakes
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:41:28 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller) writes:

>Anyhow, I've recently started looking into historic sweets using honey. 
>I've found several mentions of such things, and one modern recipe for
>what amounts to baclava cookies (honey and walnut filling in a rolled
>bisquit dough), but was wondering if anyone could point me to any
>pre-1600 recipes for such things. 

>(grm@andrew.cmu.edu)

Yeah I've tried some neat Middle-eastern honey-date-cakes but here's
the historic recipe's I've got. By the way what's wrong with rose-water 
I love it.

Pokerounce:
   225g stiff honey; ground ginger, cinnamon, black pepper a pinch of each;
   4 large square slices white bread, sans crusts; 15g pine nuts

   Put honey & spices in pan and heat v. gently for 2 mins. Don't let
   honey boil it will toffee. Toast bread, cutting each slice into
   four small squares. Pour honey over toast and stick pine kernals
   upright in each piece. Eat while hot. (Medieval)

Poor Knights:
   `Cut two penny loaves in round slices dip them in half a pint of
    cream or fair water, then lay them abroad in a dish and beat three
    Egs and grated Nutmegs and sugar, beat them with the Cream, then
    melt some butter in a frying pan, and wet the side of the toasts
    and lay them in on the wet side, then pour in the rest upon them,
    serve them in with rosewater, sugar and butter.' (1655 but much older)

Gyngerbrede:
    `Take quart of hony and sethe it and skem it clene; take slatroun,
     pouder pepir, and throw there-on; take gratyd brede, and make it
     so chargeaune that it wol be y-leached; then take pouder canelle
     and straw there-on y-now; then make it square, lyke as thou wort
     leche yt; take when thou lechyse hyt, an caste box leves aboun
     y-stykyd ther-on, on clovys. And if thou wolt have it red, coloure
     it with saunderys y-now.' (Medieval)

     1.5 lb honey		
     pinch saffron	
     pinch ground black pepper 
     2.5 oz breadcrumbs
     large pinch cinnamon
     18 small bay leaves
     6 cloves

     Warm the honey gently with the saffron and peppar until at boiling
     point. Remove from the heat, stir in the breadcrumbs to make a 
     thick paste. Simmer *very gently* over a *very low heat* for 15-20
     minutes until the paste has dried out. Place in a tin. Smooth the
     top. Sprinkle with cinnamon and decorate with the cloves and bay 
     leaves. Chill for several days in a fridge and serve very thin slices.

You want recipes. You got recipes.

-- 
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
From: evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Historic Food
Date: 29 Jul 1992 17:06:36 -0400
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <92211.150749U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
>fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
>an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?
>
Hey that works for me!!     
What kind of cereal would that be?  Wheaties last forever!



Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Folklore (was Re: WELCOME + CHARTER)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:54:47 GMT

In article <0095E5A5.6236A280@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul30.152044.4627@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams) writes:
>>        Historic use of herbs both for food and for medicine.
>>                Was there any basis for aunt Em's remedies?
>>                etc.
>> 
>How about the folklore, too?  I'm curious what people have heard about the
>emotional effects of spices.  For example, I heard somewhere that cinnamon is
>supposed to be a 'mood elevator,' making one 'chipper.'  So, between the herbs
>and spices, we should all be able to have a better day, right?


Here's one:

Cardamon:  chew a cardamon seed (never buy ground cardamon!) to
freshen your breath.  This is Scandanavian folklore and it does work
well in addition to tasting good!

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
From: blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Lobster food for peasants ( Was: potatoes introduced in europe)
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:42:44 GMT
Reply-To: blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Organization: Horizon Research

In article <1992Jul30.124413.16074@dragon.acadiau.ca>,
alan@dragon.acadiau.ca (Alan McKay) writes:

> This reminds me of a story I heard that at the turn of the century
> lobster was regarded as food for peasants.  Can anyone verify this?

I can't verify the use of lobsters at the turn of this century, but
Pilgrim history relates that the Indians taught the Pilrims how to
trap lobsters, but the Pilgrims refused to eat them and found them
disgusting fare.

- Bill Lambert
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: croberts@infon.jhu.edu (Chris Roberts)
Subject: Re: Coffee
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 01:48:34 GMT

Would you beleive that a debate raged for
several years on whether coffee was a pagan drink
fit only for muslims, or if Christians could lawfully drink it?
The pope ( I forget which pope)  finally accepted an appeal, tasted it, and
pronounced it "truly a Christian drink" (!!)
Will try to dig up reference.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Answers to various queries
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 06:17:41 GMT


rec.food.historic
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: jad@beta.lanl.gov (John De Vries)
Subject: Re: Coffee
Organization: Lost Almost Feed'n'Seed
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:02:16 GMT

In article <APPEL.92Jul29170430@soda.xcf.Berkeley.EDU> appel@xcf.Berkeley.EDU (Shannon D. Appel) writes:
.We've had constant arguments around my place concerning when Coffee
.became available in Europe [I'm especially interested in France and
.Italy].  Can anyone give dates backed by solid historical references?
.I'm particularly interested in knowing if it was available at the start
.of the 13th century.
.Shannon

Somehow I can't believe that coffee had been introduced by that time.
I do, however, know for a fact that it had become an intensely popular
fad during the time of Johann S. Bach -- viz. his "Coffee Cantata"
where a young woman and her father are arguing over her drinking the
stuff...  it is kind of cute.



John deVries

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: Historic Food
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:53:18 GMT

In article <15718sINNdr6@rodan.UU.NET>, evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen) writes:
>In article <92211.150749U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
>>fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
>>an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?
>>
>Hey that works for me!!     
>What kind of cereal would that be?  Wheaties last forever!
>

I read somewhere that people checking landfills have found
still-viable 25-yr-old twinkies--but I suppose its a little
early in the discussion to bring in material culture sources--
maybe I should have posted this to rec.food.archaeology;]

What a great idea for a group--I hope the answers are as good as the questions.

--Rich
>
>
From: ccaaaxd@ucl.ac.uk (Alan Deacon)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:48:00 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:

>Anyone good a good formula for the above?
> 
>Greg

The following isn't very precise but should be more or less right.

  1 lb stoneground wholemeal flour
  0.25 oz salt

  add enough water to make a stiff dough. Leave 1/2 hour. roll out
  into a thinnish sheet. (prob. 1/4"-1/3" thick). cut into rounds
  (or squares if you like, though trad. was rounds). Bake in a fairly
  hot oven (200C?) on a baking sheet for about 1/2 hour. Or till
  lightly browned.

  Cool a short while on a rack. Then place back in oven as it cools
  down. When fully cold place in some suitable airy place to dry.
  If possible spread the biscuits out, and place on racks to maximise
  the air flow. This air drying is important as it is this that makes the
  biscuits hard. Leave them to dry for as long as possible, we left
  ours for several weeks. They were hard but not inedible, so they
  could probably do with longer. You'll have to experiment here. I
  know fish are air-dried outside houses in places like Norway, but
  don't know how long they are left. Probably several months.

  Should the biscuits become wet (from sea water in the hold) they
  can be rebaked to dry them out. Any weavils that have hatched out
  in the meantime will then be cooked in for posterity.
-- 
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
From: 108116@adpdp2.lanl.gov (108116)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Garam
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:27:00 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory, EMVAX
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


>	The Romans (we're talking the Republic and the Empire here,
>not modern-day) were known to use a particular sauce called "garam",
>which was made from fermented fish and a few other ingredients.  Since
>learning about this sauce, I've experemented a bit with Thai cooking,
>which uses a fermented fish sauce in much the same way the Japanese
>use soy sauce.  It occurred to me that there probably wouldn't be
>a huge difference.

Take a look at the ingredients of (pardon spelling) Worchestershire Sauce.

My roman civ lecturer at UCSB said w.s. is a direct derivitive of a 
fish based sauce favoured by the roman soldiers, and that perhaps 
it was the only known remaining trace of such.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: 2 recipes + a plea
Keywords:  Honey cakes, sbiten'
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:50:34 GMT


Here are a couple of recipes from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by
Anne Volokh that are old.  She says the honey cake was the first
russian cake.  Of course, the recipe calls for baking soda so
I don't know how authentically old it really is  (I also don't know
how old vegetable oil is).  The other one is sbiten', a spiced drink 
that is over 500 years old.  This one doesn't seem to have any glaring 
(at least to me) modern ingredients.

Russian Honey Cake				serves 8-12
1/3 cup sugar				1 1/2 cups eggs (about 8)
1/8 tsp salt				3/4 cup + 2 tbsp honey
2 1/2 tsp baking soda			1 1/2 cups warm water
1/2 tsp cloves				3 1/2 cups (1 lb) rye flour
1/2 tsp cinnamon			1/4 cup plum, Morello cherry (sour),
1/4 tsp cardamon				or other jam
1 1/2 cups vegetable oil


Grease and flour 2 8in or 1 12in baking pan.  Preheat overn to 275deg.
Combine ingredients.  Beat with mixer on low speed for 1 minute and
gradually increase to medium speed.  Beat a total of 15min stopping
after 5 and 10 min to rest machine.  If bubbles approx 1/2in in diameter
appears and more are coming, let batter rest 10min.  If there are no
bubbles, beat 5 more minutes or until bubbles appear.  Let rest 10 min.
Pour batter into pans and bake 1 hour or until deep golden brown.  Remove
from oven and let it sit for 10min in the pan.  Turn onto cake rack and
turn once in 10-15minutes.  Spread jam on one layer and cover with 
the other.  If covered with plastic wrap, this will keep 2 days at
room temperature or 4 days in the 'fridge.


Sbiten'							serves 6
12 whole cloves
1 1/2 tsp coarsely chopped ginger root
1/8 tsp fresh nutmeg
1 in stick cinnamon
rind of 1/2 lemon
1/2 cup vodka
6 tsp honey
5 1/2 cups water

Put spices and rind in bowl and pour vodka over them.  Cover with plastic
wrap and let infuse overnight.  Strain through 4 layers of cheesecloth.  
In a 2 quart pan, boil water with honey until the honey is blended.  Remove
from heat and add the spiced vodka.  Pour into mugs.

Note:  I'm not vouching for the pre-1600s authenticity of these
recipes.  I don't want flames but would appreciate discussion about
what would have been done differently back then.

And now for the plea:

I've noticed discussion about emailing recipes or keeping this a
pure discussion group.  Please, post your recipes!  I doubt that
people would be too upset if lots of recipes showed up here! I think
we can have a recipe and a discussion group all in one.


Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
From: md_norma@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (MD Norman)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: recipes
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:01:34 GMT
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England

The organisation English Heritage produces a set of booklets
( about 6 in total ) detailing English food through the ages.
The booklets as I recall go from prehistoric times, through
Roman up to Victorian. yje are quite an interesting read with
good recipes updated for modern ingredients. I will post a few
recipes from these on return from holidays.
                                Regards
                                      Mike
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Ha!
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:54:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
>Sorry for being a pain, but here it goes....
>
>HA!  HA!   I GOT THE FIRST POST!    I GOT THE FIRST POST!  HA!  HAAA!!!
>
>BD (I'm too embarassed to print my full name...)
>
>-- 
>===========================================================================
>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>===========================================================================

Aren't .sig's just great little additions onto a message, Brian Dixon?

<insert ear to ear grin here>

Since this is the second post, I'll ask a question:
Does anyone have any knowledge of Polish food, pre 1600? 
I have several recipies of folk food, but they either involve
pork (allergy) or potato (showed up after the time period I'm 
looking for). 

Anyone.......Anyone........Anyone?

Andrew
amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
".Sig? I don't need no steenkin' .SIG!"
From: evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: <none>
Date: 30 Jul 1992 12:56:03 -0400
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <1992Jul30.123724.14316@husc3.harvard.edu> feland@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Andrew Feland) writes:
>
>RECIPES!  RECIPES!  I'M DYING FOR RECIPES!!

Yea!...me too!  

Evie
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Cinnamon (was: WELCOME + CHARTER)
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:16:30 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article 6236A280@Msu.oscs.montana.edu, oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu () writes:
|In article <1992Jul30.152044.4627@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams) writes:
|>        Historic use of herbs both for food and for medicine.
|>                Was there any basis for aunt Em's remedies?
|>                etc.
|> 
|How about the folklore, too?  I'm curious what people have heard about the
|emotional effects of spices.  For example, I heard somewhere that cinnamon is
|supposed to be a 'mood elevator,' making one 'chipper.'  So, between the herbs
|and spices, we should all be able to have a better day, right?

So how much cinnamon must be fed to a grouch to make a noticible improvement? ;^)

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Historic Food
From: Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:51:25 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

In article <15718sINNdr6@rodan.UU.NET> evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen) writes:
> In article <92211.150749U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> John Schulien <U21187@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> >As recently as 1991 my old roommate's fridge had a vintage 1987 bowl of
> >fettucini. My parents have a box of breakfast cereal in the pantry with
> >an expiration date of 1972. Does this qualify as historic food?
> >
> Hey that works for me!!     
> What kind of cereal would that be?  Wheaties last forever!
> 
> 
> 

My kids eat cereal most days and from time to time I make a huge lot
of muesli full of rolled oats, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, coconut,
wheatgerm, etc etc baked with some oil and honey and a little salt
till it's golden then I add chopped dried apricots, raisins, and other
dried fruit.  The scoff it with glee.  But why is it, just when I make
a fresh lot, they suddenly decide it's time to switch to Cocopops, or
fruit loops, or bran flakes.  The muesli goes untouched and then loses
its appeal ("Gee, Mum.  That stuff's OLD!!")  I am left with another
container of historic food...

Someone mentioned potatoes.  The Maori people of New Zealand had
kumera, like US yams or sweet potato.  Archaeologists have uncovered
kumera plots around the country.  Some Maori folk visited Japan a
yeqar or two back to bring back some Japanese sweet potatoes which
they reckoned were like the kumera of old.  It was an expedition with
a lot or ceremony.
We have both golden-skinned yellow kumera and deep red skinned yellow
kumera.  The Maori used to cook them in pits (dig a hole, fill with
big stones and set a fire going on top.  When the stones are hot the
ambers would be raked away and 
food would be set in protected from the heat with - I think _ damp
flax.  Slow cooking stuff like meat at the bottom, vegetables, birds,
fish and shellfish higher up.  These days the Maori still prepare a
traditional *hangi* as it is called, but use wire baskets, aluminium
foil, etc.  This type of cooking pit seems to be widespread in various
cultures.  Great way of cooking for a crowd.).  We like to cook our
kumera alongside a roast leg of lamb, or baked and glazed with orange sauce.
-- 
| The floggings will continue until morale improves
| Pat.Churchill@bbs.actrix.gen.nz (Pat Churchill, Wellington, New Zealand)
| NZ is running low on electricity - Email some today
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic