HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Sola Scriptura & Tradition
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:56:40 GMT


I think this discussion is plagued by a failure for everybody to agree on just
what is meant by `Sola Scriptura' -- including the people who espouse the
doctrine.

The best sense I can make of Sola Scriptura is this: Everything that is
necessary for salvation and properly living out the Gospels, and which can
only be discovered by Divine Revelation, is contained in the Bible.  There are
true statements which are not in the Bible because we can find them out
ourselves ("If you stab somebody he'll die"), because they aren't important to
establishing doctrine ("The earth is an oblate spheroid"), or because they
aren't necessary for living out the Gospel ("Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart had
perfect pitch").

Nabil Ayoub writes:

> The verse I quoted earlier and a bunch of other ones that were posted
> earlier, *prove beyond doubt* that there were teachings that were orally
> passed. What was written is a subset of what was passed on by the Apostles.
> So in no way "Sola Scriptura" can be justified. 

Not quite.  Of course it is true that there are things Jesus said & did which
are not recorded in the Bible -- we have no quote in the Gospels where he says
"my sandals are untied", though they probably were untied at least a few times
and he probably commented on it at least once.

Additionally, note that verses which speak about things not written down may
predate the writing of later books -- unless you can show the chronology, you
cannot really argue that those verses prove the absence of teaching from the
New Testament.

So far as I can make them out, the people who argue for Sola Scriptura are
saying that the IMPORTANT parts of what was told the Apostles eventually got
written down somewhere and incorporated into the New Testament.  In theory,
God led the church by the Holy Spirit into arranging this.

Now, this idea may have a few problems, but the existence of unwritten
Apostolic teachings is not such a problem.  One problem is that there's no
obvious way to demonstrate that it is true.  Another problem is that the line
of thinking above ("God arranged it so it would work out right") applies
equally well to other things which are false ("God protected the transmission
of the Bible so that it has no textual errors").


It's not clear to me that the discussion on this topic has been worthwhile,
because the participants don't seem to be understanding each other.  If anyone
wishes to continue the discussion, I recommend including a short definition of
exactly what you mean by `Sola Scriptura' and a short summary of the argument
you are replying to.

If someone who believes SS tells you that you've misunderstood what he means
by the doctrine, then you'll probably have to re-evaluate your arguments
against it.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge." -- Henry Spencer
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From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Newsweek: Gays Under Fire
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:54:41 GMT


I wrote that many homosexuals feel oppressed by Christians -- if they are not
members of our religion, they see no reason why they should be forced to obey
all of our rules.  I said that this feeling of oppression seemed justified to
me -- after all, I wouldn't like it if a group of Muslims tried to make me
fast during Ramadan.

Some gays are abrasive about expressing their frustration (a failing that,
believe it or not, I am familiar with 8-).  But so far as I can make out, all
homosexuals want is to be left alone when in private, and treated like anyone
else when in public.

Todd Howard wrote an article which seems to agree with me at some points and
disagree at others (but I am not entirely certain).  One thing he writes is
this:

> I see too many "Gay rights" activists shouting "tolerate us!", but what they
> are really saying is "condone us!".  Soon they will start to shout "you MUST
> tolerate us!", but what they will be saying (and indeed, some already say
> this) is "Shut up, my way is right (therefore you are wrong)!"

This looks somewhat like a slippery-slope argument: right now they just want
to be tolerated, but next they'll want control.  I do not believe that you can
really say what will happen after homosexuals achieve `gay rights', and I am
not willing to oppose people because of what they _might_ do next.

And while I've met a few homosexuals who adopted a "how dare you be openly
straight" attitude, or who referred derisively to heterosexuals, they seem to
be extremists.  Nobody has ever suggested, even for a second, that I should
stop being straight and become gay.  Nobody has ever said that, because being
gay was okay, being straight was wrong.

Has anyone here ever actually been told by a homosexual that he/she should
`convert'?


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"In starting any thesis, it seems to me, one should put forward as one's
 point of departure something incontrovertible; the expression should be
 simple and dignified."  -- Diogenes
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:11:05 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual rape.
              10 Sep 1992 10:27:00 EST from
              <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dan & Ian:

Just browsing thru. You might also consider that Rev 3:20, the text in
question, is in context addressed to already born-again Christians in a
church that needs restoration. Jesus is not addressing unbelievers.

Concerning God's sovereignty, well, trying not to mention the "P" word, let
me at least say look at John 6 in context. Jesus seems to make it clear that
no man can come to Him UNLESS/EXCEPT/UNTIL the Father first draws that man.

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 11:41:35 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Apology to Phil Donahue

Hi all:

I saw it, but I'm still not sure I believe it.  Phil Donahue did a show
yesterday on the (get ready) PROBLEMS associated with LEGAL abortion.
There was a woman who had been aborted in a Planned Parenthood clinic &
later gave birth to a perfectly healthy child.  There was a woman who
had been aborted and later gave birth to a child with one arm missing
from the trauma of the botched abortion.  There was a lawyer.  And there
were beautiful, healthy, happy babies.

The first woman was told, during her abortion (by the compassionate
Planned Parenthood doctor), "If you don't relax, I'll miss my lunch."

Seeing those babies may well help some to make the decision not to
abort.  Hearing those stories may change some minds and hearts.  Thank
you, Phil Donahue.

And thank you, Jesus, for a wonderful end to a less-than-perfect day.

May God bless the children, and may God bless all of those working to
ensure their survival.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:33:37 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Antibaptist??

Dear Antibaptist on Christia,
What do Antibaptist believe in and how did this denomination get
started?
Thanks

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:20:27 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      SPIRITUAL GIFTS

Well, G, you made my day!!  Thanks for the support.  What
would I do without friends!

I participated in a Bible Study on spiritual gifts and I've
been intending to consult my notes, but have been too busy!

A couple things I remember is that we usually enjoy doing something
that uses our gifts and that others will tell us that we're
good at it.  It also divided up gifts and talents.  There was
a questionnaire we took to identify our gifts.  One of those
things where you answer 'always' 'sometimes' 'never', etc.  My
gifts changed from when I first took the class and then later
retook the test.  I think it was a growth process.

Some of the gifts I remember are giving, faith, intercessory
prayer, serving, leading, teaching, prophecy, tongues, evangelism,..
I can't remember more without the book.  They were taken from a couple
places in the Bible.

We all have at least one gift from the Lord.  Most people will
have 2 or 3 that they excel in.  It's up to us to use what
the Lord has given us.

Carol Nemec
YA67@FERRIS
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:57:35 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tradition & Sola Scriptura
              11 Sep 1992 18:49:51 EDT from <timk@WORLD.STD.COM>

Tim King:

I agree with you 100%.  And then some.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re>Absolution
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:45:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.235810.905@infodev.cam.ac.uk> gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan) writes:
>But suppose someone considers that there is *no* church on earth which
>is "the true Church"; no church on earth that has no false dogmas.
>Suppose that person decides that the church whose teachings are "best"
>is the RCC; should they be a Roman Catholic, or are they obliged to leave
>the RCC because they do not consider it the one true church in your sense?

   Such a person cannot be be a Catholic, because one of the basic
Catholic dogmas is that there _is_ such a Church, the Catholic Church.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Subject: Re: Ministers and messengers of God
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 02:51:52 GMT

In article <01GOE296ZKDE0004Z6@drunivac.drew.edu>, DMOREAU@DRUNIVAC.BITNET (David J. Moreau) writes:

>    So why is this all important?  Because it is imperative to hear
> the Gospel from one who is _sent_, otherwise we can not believe, nor
> can we have faith.  So who was duly commissioned?  You can argue with
> each other, but I will say neither the Catholics nor the Protestants.
> The Catholics claim of apostolic succession is false, and the
> Protestants have no where to claim authority.  If anyone disagrees
> with me, please, as much as possible, send personal E-mail so as not
> to clutter up the list.  And if anyone wishes for me to explain
> myself, please send personal E-mail, so that those who are not
> interested and keep their disk quotas reasonable.

It doesn't seem very right to post something controversial and then demand that
people should reply only in private...

What do you mean by "The Protestants have nowhere to claim authority"? Are you
suggesting that no one can bring the Good News to anyone else unless they have
been specially commissioned by someone who was specially commissioned by [etc]
who was specially commissioned by God? Or what?

If that is what you mean, it seems to be based on your interpretation of
Romans 10:14-15; I think you're reading too much into it. I would naturally
interpret Paul as meaning "... And how can they preach, if they aren't
provided for and made able to go off to wherever-it-might-be", roughly.

I also don't understand your idea of authority coming through prophecy: the
prophecy doesn't give authority to the prophesied person; rather, that person
fulfils the prophecy. John the Baptist was prophesied, but so was Antiochus
Epiphanes, and I don't think it makes sense to say that the latter was given
authority by the prophecies in Daniel. (If you believe that Daniel was written
after Antiochus Epiphanes, substitute some other such instance; the predictions
of Jesus that the "Last Days" would be attended by the coming of false prophets,
for example.)

It is perfectly possible to hear the Gospel from any source at all, "sent" or
not, and to have faith in it. Paul rejoiced because the Gospel was preached,
even when it was preached from the basest of motives (Philippians 1). [Indeed
Paul believed without any human being much involved at all, but of course his
was a very special case.]

But if you really want to insist on messengers being "sent": Many (most?)
Christians consider that the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28 is
directed not only at the disciples to whom it was addressed at the time, but
to all Christians at all times, or to the Christian church at all times. If
this is so, then we are all "sent", by the greatest authority possible.


Anyway, I'm interested to know what your alternative to Catholicism and
Protestantism is; if you aren't prepared to put it here, then please e-mail
me.
From: acs_belscamp@rivers.acc.uwrf.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Hi everyone
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:50:10 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin - River Falls

Hi Everyone...
	I don't know how many of you remember me.  I haven't been here in 
quite a while...probably about 2 1/2 years.  Anyhow we're getting newsgroups
here now so I don't have to worry about filling my account with mail messages.

	Just thought I'd say Hi and I'm glad to be back.  Also, I'm still not
sure if posting messages here works so could someone please send me some mail
if you get this message.  We've been having some trouble getting our newsreader
set up.

Sorry for the boring, pointless message.

Love,
	Jill
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:36:18 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      roommate prayer update

Thanks all for your prayers for my daughter, Sarah.
Her roommate has moved out to share a room with a
friend, Sarah did not have to trade.  But now she is
in a private room, hasn't really met anyone, and is
not an outgoing person to make the first move.

She came home last weekend, we took her back on Monday, she
called home Tuesday and Thursday.  I think she's lonesome.
She also needs a job.  Something that would force her around
people.  There's 40,00 students at this university, she's
gotta meet someone.  Maybe this will force her to church
on Sunday!  Just to have something to do!

Thanks again.  I believe strongly in the power of prayer, and
I think it's important to pray in everything we do, not just
the life-threatening situations.  Our Lord expects us to come to
him without ceasing!

Carol Nemec
ya67@ferris
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:45:23 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Me and sin - some thoughts

Madge,

      I really enjoyed Steven's post also.  I just read it again.  THanks for
sending it.  I hope you have been feeling better.


                                     Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:44:14 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.
              11 Sep 1992 14:27:00 GMT from
              <Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK>

Carol L

I'm not sure about what you mean "God-given right"; I'm not even sure there
is such a thing. But about your reference to Rev 3:20, Christ is standing
not at a supposed door to an unbeliever's heart, but rather at the door of
a church of already born-again Christians who are in need of some spiritual
restoration.

Rev 3:20 is so often misquoted that is rarely examined by the rest of us in
its context. I would suggest you examine John 6 for starters, and note that
our Lord teaches no man can come to Christ UNLESS/EXCEPT/UNTIL the Father
first draws the man to Christ.

Tom Brewer
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Math and `absolute' answers
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey (nee Glassboro State College)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:59:16 GMT


[ Note: the name `Godel' in what follows is supposed to have an umlaut over
  the `o'.  Since ASCII doesn't include such a character, you'll have to use
  your imagination. ]

Kerry Stephenson quoted a passage from Saturday Night Live (not, of course,
that she watches such trash 8^):

>  Instead of having "answers" on a math test, they should just call them
> "impressions."  And if you got a different "impression," so what?  Can't we
> all be brothers?

and later explains the relevance of the joke:

> It was supposed to imply that some things are true (answers to math tests)
> and can't just be tossed off as "impressions."  The "can't we all be
> brothers?" comment was meant to show just how ridiculous it is to assume
> that abosolutes are somehow made less so by the desire to get along, and to
> imply that the real motivation behind those who so dismiss such absolutes is
> that they just can't deal with reality (i.e., they are flunking the math
> tests.)

It is true that most math tests have specifically detailed domains and well-
crafted questions which lead to `absolute' answers, but I get the impression
that you think mathematics *in general* comes with certainty -- that there are
always absolute answers to be found to math questions.

Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work out as neatly as we might like.  The
short version is that there are some mathematical statements -- about numbers,
properties of sets, that sort of thing -- which cannot be proven true or
false.  There are questions for which there are no answers, and problems which
cannot be solved, and which will ALWAYS have no answers/solutions.  (In some
cases, not even omniscience would help.)

I know most Christia readers probably aren't interested, but in case anybody
is, here are some book references:

  _Mathematics, The Loss of Certainty_, by Morris Kline
  _Godel, Escher, Bach_ by Douglas R Hofstadter


So if a guy named Euclid has the impression that parallel lines never meet,
and a guy named Ellipse has the impression that "there's no such thing", we
should hope they can be brothers -- because neither man is wrong.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Everything worth knowing is undecideable."
                                 -- Deb Wilson (summarising Rice's Theorem)
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X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:15:28 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      TOUGH CALL,ZANE...

 I dunno, ... geez.
 IT seems like Christians everywhere are beginning to feel the e
 brunt of the Devil's attacks more than ever before.
 This may be because he knows he can't survive like he's doin'
 for too much longer.
 God will take care of that problem later...
 For now, keep your chin up, keep praising HIM,
 and God Bless
 "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:59:47 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ????? on the Second Coming
              9 Sep 1992 16:59:04 CST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

Dear Ian ;

Paul has already stated that the Gospel had been preached in the whole
world in His day.




Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:37:59 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Parousia and 2 Peter 3

Jesse,

I can see how you have come to the conclusions stated in your posting,
but in order for them to be valid, you must assume that almost the
entirety of the NT was written before 70 AD.  From my reading of
evangelical/conservative NT scholarship, most scholars seem to be of
opinion that the NT was not complete until the 90s or so.  What historical
evidence can you provide to show that the NT was completed prior to
70 AD?

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:48:37 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual Gifts
              Hutter" at Sep 8, 92 9:24 am

Wolfgang,
If people perminately had the I cor 14 gifts then pray tell why are not
all our hospitals empty/demons cast out/ seas parted etc etc etc..

No one PERMINATELY has the gift of Miracles, not even Jesus. Jesus acted
under the annointing of the Holy Spirit as a man, no one PERMINATELY has
any of the 1 Cor Gifts (oh I wish we did)..

Public Tounges for the edification of the Body are not something we have all
the time either (IMHO). Tounges for ediification of the body is really
just a prophesy in a non native language to the hearing audience.

Personal tounges for self edification/prayer/intercession is another matter.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:35:15 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Near Death Experiences

Dear Christia,
Has anyone ever had or know of a friend who had a NDE? And has this
subject ever been discussed on Christia before? If so, how can I look at
the logs on it?

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:19:25 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Al Gore's religious beliefs
              11 Sep 1992 21:16:21 GMT from <anachem@BRONZE.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Mark G:

Texe Marrs is, I admit, a bit of an hysteric, particularly in his
work on the milennium.  However, I have to admit that he is right
about Gore.  Everything you quoted from him about Gore is, in
fact, true.

Also, the thing in Florida is for real, as well.  Being a recently
converted occultist, I recieve mail from (as they say) "both sides
of the aisle" and information (with a positive slant) on the Florida
groups was one of them.  You should see some of the weirdness going
on within New Age groups.  (I even have a map of the 5 sites in the
US where the new consciousness will re-emerge shortly before the end
of this century to do away with fundamentalist negative thinking and
enable Americans to elevate their consciousness to the point where they
will be able to travel psychically to or from any of these sites.
I am not kidding.  They are serious about this.  And, oh yeah--
I almost forgot--before consciousness is raised, 1/4 of the US
population will be "cleansed" by the positive vibrations emanating
from the Pacific Northwest site.)

Love INC,

--Kerry
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