From: saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Marla Belzowski (K-9's))
Subject: Re: behavior modification or dog training
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:10:37 GMT

In article <24212@alice.att.com> rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin) writes:
>
>
>Jon Krueger writes:
>>> The significant part is that you correct him for the down
>
>>Incorrect.  The significant (causal) part is his previous history.
>>It adds an incompatible behavior to his repertoire.
>
>>If down is not in his repertoire or it's not incompatible with
>>barking, "correct" all you want; at best you'll punish barking.
>

Humm, I'm lost in this discussion.  I take it that you
are trying to modify the unwanted behavior of barking, to
an acceptable behavior like lying down.  It can be done.
I am currently working with a dog in our classes that is
very untrustable around other dogs.  He used to lunge
and snap at any dog within a foot of him.  We have modified     
this behavior to have him lay down when he feels the urge to
snap.  If this were my dog, I would not allow the snapping, but
his owners do not agree with harsh corrections, so the only other
thing I can do is modify the behavior.  This consisted of
taking several dogs past the agressive dog.  Each time he 
growled, barked, snaped or stared at the other dog, I had the
owners put him on a quick and immediate down.  As long as he
went down and then proply stoped his display, he was praised.
Now, each time a dog comes by, he will ignor them, or lay down.
This dog is not over his agression towards other dogs, but he is controlling
it in an acceptable manner.  

I would assume the same can be done for barking.


>The significant part is the syntax of the down;  the dog does not
>give himself commands, even when he lies down  on his own (actually there's
>an ancient Barnaby cartoon by Crockett Johnson, where the dog discovers
>discovers he can talk, and starts giving himself commands in the background of
>several frames.  An acknowledgement that speech is required for a command.
>Ie., a syntax of command.)  It's different from behavior.
>
>Response to a command isn't behavior.  L respondere, to answer, to
>promise in return.  ``I asked him to join me.'' ``What was his response?''
>vs.  ``What was his behavior?''  I keep saying that it is impoverishing
>to refuse the distinction here.  I train for response in this sense.
>
I don't know what you are getting to here.    
As long as the dog understands down, then you are modifying
the unwanted behavior for an acceptable behavior.  If the dog
doesn't already understand down, then you are probably just confusing
it. 


>If the dog knows the down and the correction, then you're correcting
>the down when you give the down correction, even though he hasn't
>mastered everything about the down yet.  Ie., it isn't behavior yet,
>in your terms, which I want to refute anyway.
>

? I don't follow this.

>Another distinction you don't make, between correction and punishment.
>
>Let me give you a data point:
>
>Training heel, as Koehler does it, consists of trying to trip the dog
>up in various ways if he's out of position or not paying attention.
>Ie., very fast about-faces when he forges ahead, so he's caught up
>short when his slack runs out; slowing down and turning left and
>kneeing him in the neck; turning right if he's too far to the left
>and tightening the leash too quickly for him as you depart.
>
>You'll see of course all sorts of negative consequences for the foolish
>dog.  You'll see punishments.
>
>Well, here's the data point.  I haven't had my dog on a leash in years
>for just walking around town, because it hasn't been necessary.  But,
>sometimes she asks to go out and work - not play frisbee, not pee, but
>just do some work, be it a jump or whatever.  Sometimes we go out and
>practice heeling.  In particular, I hold out the choke collar with leash
>attached, and she eagerly pokes her nose into it!
>

If I taught my dog to heel this way, she'd balk everytime I
picked up a lead.  By jerking, bumping, triping, and otherwise
manhandling your dog, you are not "teaching" the dog where heel is.
You are just teaching it to dispise the heeling process 
This is way I now favor "binding" as explained by Bernie Brown and
/or Diane Bauman.  This way you are "teachingg" the dog where heel is
without letting them make a mistake.  This way the dog learns with
positive renforcement instead of the negative reenforcement you
have discribed (ei "You'll see all sorts of negative consequences.." as
you stated")

Sure after your dog knows where heel is, you can go to a further
phase of making abrupt turns, stops, weaves, etc.. to keep the
dog's mind on heeling correctly.  It is now that the "correction:
phase" is being used for it's intended purpose.  Corrections are
often missused by many trainers.

>Now, the only thing the choke collar has ever been used for is corrections,
>be it for heeling, sit, down, etc.  Yet she welcomes it!  We're going
>to do some work!  Great!
>
>Then I spend a few minutes with her trying my best to knee her in the
>neck, trying to about face and catch her short, etc. etc, and I can't
>do it - she's too good.
>
>There's no way she ever understood corrections as punishment, WHY IS THAT???
>
Corrections are not supposed to be punshments.  Corrections are
just that, corrections for an unacceptable response.
A corrction can be a good sharp jerk, or just a reminding
pat on the chest or nose.  A correction is want ever YOU need
to do to get your dog to understand the correct response to a command.
But you have to remember that all dogs do not react the
same way to jerks on the collar.  If I were to just continually
jerk my two dogs to teach them someething, they would resent the command
"heel" as 'Oh, no I'm going to get jerked'.  In fact Mauii did react
exactly this way.  I started training Mauii with Koelher about 5 years
ago when I was ingonrant of the other methods out there.  I can now
say that it has taken the last 4.5 years to correct her fear of
heeling and recalls after using that method.  I can also now say that
Koehler does NOT work on all dogs.  Mauii is living proof that
there is no ONE way to train a dog. 

>I'm curious about what your answer would be. Why would she welcome such
>a thing?
>

Why, because she has a different learning style and different
temperment.  Some dogs thrive on a very dominant and commanding
trainer and some dogs deteriorate given the same atmosphere.
It is also directly connected with how often you are with her.
If you work 8 hours a day, or are at classes a lot of the time, then
your dog will happily do and accept many things just to be with you.
Given a choice between no attention and bad attention a dog will
choose bad attention over being alone.  (Not that I'm saying
you do anything that is considered bad attention when your with
your dog, If Koelher works for you great, but do not assume
it will work for everyone..)  

For example:  A dog is left in
the house all alone for eight hours while master is away.  Dog
does nothing but wait until master comes home.  Master comes in
gives dog a pat and goes over to read the newspaaer, eat dinner,
takes dog out for a walk, goes to bed.  The dog got some attention,
but not undivided attention.  Next day, dog rips up couch when
master is away.  Master comes back and yells at dog, shakes dog
stuffs a big rawhide in dog's mouth.  The dog got some undivided
attention, even though it was bad attentio, it was attention.
Now, the question is will the dog rip up something else next time.
My answer, yes, probably.  Unless the dog gets good attention for
being good, it will seek any attention it can get.

>``I am Susie who heels perfectly in spite of about-faces and left turns.''
>
>She knows and loves a syntax.

That may be for your dog, but my dogs heel happily along also, but
they have been trained in a totally different manner.  They still have
a lot of spit and vinager in them.  I prefer my dogs to think instead
of just stimulas and respone replys.  I have often been amazed that
my dogs do understand whole stings of commands put into sentence form.
That takes the ability to reason and put the commands together to
form a response.  I have often said to Mauii " Mauii, get the
ball and go lay down on the rug."  She will do exactly that.
May dogs that have been trained by stimulas and response only, will just
Lay down because they hear the word lay down as a "forced" command word.

I can say the only method that I use to train is what works.  
I don't care what method it may come from origionally, as long as
it produced the result I want, it works.  
So far, two of my dogs agree that it works well and the third
will help prove my "method" in the next year.

-------------
Marla Belzowski   saavik@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Mauii Nikki Belzowski CD CGC TDI CERF
Brittish Legend of Beowulf CD CGC TDI CERF  tri-color collies
Legend's Year of Jubilee  sable & white collie

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