From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 05:39:54 GMT

	OK - you mentioned that you were still interested in the CP 
discussion, even though we agreed to disagree on the SR universe. 

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>[cc. Johnny Mnemonic]
>>I think you are interpreting 'shadowrunner' to be 'shadowrunner in a 
>>munchkin game.' In the books and modules, SRers are constantly used as 
>>tools - their definition is just that they do freelance, often illegal, 
>>jobs for hire. Molly, Johnny, and many others fall into this category. 
>
>Johnny has no marketable skills; all he has is a chip in his head and a 
>willingness to be used as walking storage media. That's not a 'shadowrunner'
>in any sense of the (loosely defined) term.

	True, but Molly and Case were. 

>
>>	Uh - the original rules were not especially deadly, but I have been 
>>told SRII is quite so. As far as being 'larger-than-life', I'm not sure I 
>>know what you mean. Gibson's universe is filled with ultra-powerful people.
>
>Case was not ultra-powerful; he was just a good decker, who (obviously) can
>fuck up just as good as the rest of us. Molly may have been hell on wheels, 
>but she was hardly superhuman; look what the Tessier-Ashpools did to her. 
>"Ultra-powerful" is a relative term; compared to the world's heavy hitters, 
>the main characters in _Neuromancer_ and company were small fry.

	OK - so by 'ultra-powerful' you mean 'best in the world'. I would 
say that Molly and Case are quite powerful, but there are beings out there 
who definitely go into levels of power which go far beyond human. 

> 
>>The assassin in "JM" was able to dodge bullet and slice people into 
>>jullienne fries, and Molly defeated him in melee. 
>
>The assassin dodged a shotgun blast from an untrained gunman who had the gun
>in a duffel bag full of socks. Hell, you or I might be able to do that. And
>Molly, for the most part, got lucky, and had choice of playing field; it was
>stated pretty explicetly that the assassin wouldn't have lost if they hadn't
>been on the Killing Ground. "Killed by culture shock", or some such reference,
>remember?

	Yes, I remember - but it at least meant she was in his class. 

>
>>	Oh, come one. You are judging CP literature by the best that is 
>>out there, and you are judging Shadowrun by the worst munchkin campaigns. 
>>There are plenty of lousy, shallow cyberpunk books out there - and plenty 
>>of good SR campaigns.
>
>Yes, there is lousy CP and good SR. But, IMHO, the standard SR background is
>typical of the worst kinds of copycat cyberpunk literature. 
> 
>>If you think that any system can - by virtue of its rules or its universe - 
>>give soul or depth to a campaign, then I must strongly disagree. 
>
>It can't give soul or depth to a campaign; but it -can- have it's own sense
>of depth and soul. Tell me the Amber background doesn't have an impressive 
>depth and a soul all it's own?

	Uh, no. If you include the characters of the amberites and the story, 
then I would agree with you. But just the whole Pattern-Chaos-Shadow setup 
strikes me as being confused and ill-defined, not particularly resonant. I 
think that the Amber universe, were it to be presented without the books, 
would strike me as stupid and shallow. 
	There are universes out there which do have depth, though, I'd 
agree. I think that Gibson's universe is that way. I think the Madlands 
and Glorantha are that way. They encompass a certain worldview which is 
interesting in-and-of itself. 

	However, I think a universe with depth is not neccessary or even 
always desirable for a campaign with depth. A complete and sensible 
universe is generally a good thing - but not always (Toon, Paranoia, 
etc.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')