From: etxjpll@eua.ericsson.se (Peter Lund)
Subject: Re: War and democracies
Reply-To: etxjpll@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 07:33:38 GMT


In article 22111@tc.cornell.edu, rohan@nmc.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi) writes:
> In article <1992Nov4.183909.22600@eua.ericsson.se> , etxjpll@eua.ericsson.se (Peter Lund) writes:
> 
> >  Panama under Noriega wasn't any state. It was a hide out for criminals.
> 
> In whose eyes, Mr. Lund?  Yours?  

Yes, of course, whose else?

> Panama is a sovereign state, and has (or should have) the same rights as any other.  

Why? The only thing that gives a country's regime international rights, is if 
it has either moral or military strength. Panama had neither. Moral strength, a 
regime only has if it provides a "good" system for its people. Military strength 
if it has nuclear arms. There is no system on earth that is both undemocratic 
and "good".

> The fact is that the nations of the 
> world have granted neither the US nor the UN the right to militarily intervene 
> in the affairs of any nation, unless specifically authorised by the General
> Assembly in cases of serious breaches of the UN charter.

Have you ever heard the sentence "All power originates from the people". It 
doesn't say that all power originates from the nations, or the regimes of the 
nations, which is the same. 

You see, democracy is something between humans not nations!

> >  The same goes for Libya. The former Soviet Union was the only country,
> >  that complained seriously about the bombing of Kadaffi and his gang 
> >  members. The Soviet Union under the communist system was practically a 
> >  state ruled by a maffia.
> 
> Much as it may come as a surprise to you, the world is not a large globe filled
> with tidy little Scandinavian countries.  The world is sometimes chaotic, and 
> usually imperfect; this does not give anyone the right to impose their vision of 
> "order" on anyone else.  

Yes, the world is not perfect, but do you have to love it also?
I don't, and I will also try to do something about it. Will you?

[deleted stuff about how bad the world is]

> This cannot be solved by trying
> to impose order where none exists; the current situation in the USSR, where 
> the artificially imposed Stalinist order has been shown to have no lasting effect,
> illustrates this admirably.  Moreover, if your attempts to solve these problems
> by force impinge upon the rights of other peoples to decide their own destinies, 
> you have no right to try.

Do you really think the Soviet people had any rights at all during the _Stalin_ 
era? Don't forget your history classes next year!

During Stalin, the Soviet people had no rights at all, and if we would have been 
capable of giving them some rights by interfering, it would have been our moral 
duty to do so.

> >  I would like to see, the democratic states forming an global alliance. 
> >  Then that alliance could play the role of the world's policeman and not 
> >  just the US, which some times fails to fill that role. 

> When the world is one society, you will be justified in setting up a police
> force for it.  Until then, you have no mandate to do so; if you try, all you
> will set up is an empire.  And those who see imperialism as an injustice and 
> a crime, as I do, will not cease to oppose it with all the strength at our
> command.

An empire can't be built within a democratic system, so it is not an empire I 
want. Countries that are impossible to help become democratic with non-military 
means, are not subjects to this alliance of mine.

> The crux of the matter, Mr Lund (you might be interested to know that "lund"
> means "penis" in Punjabi) is this:

A symbol of strength then I guess.

> If you have a coherent argument to present to this, Mr. Lund, kindly send it
> to me at rohan@nmc.cit.cornell.edu.  

Don't you think I have the right to express my views, the same way as you have, 
Mr Oberoi?

> If you merely wish to restate the 
> gibberish you put in your last article, do us both a favour and shut up.

This was a true democratic statement!

Peter Lund,     mail: Peter.Lund@eua.ericsson.se
Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden


Newsgroups: alt.politics.ec