HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: Executor: Running Mac Programs on a NeXT
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 01:37:45 GMT

David Manning writes
>> Detractors will be happy to know that currently Executor
>> has many limitations including: No Color, No Sound, No
>> AppleTalk, No Desk Accessories and no Script Manager Support. 
>> In addition, some programs run very well (Word4/5 and
>> Excel3/4), some have quirks and some don't run at all.
> 
> This may sound like a terribly callous thing to say, but citing
> the fact you've gotten Microsoft products to "run very well"
> while others "have quirks" puts Executor 180 degrees away from
> how most products run on the Macintosh: Microsoft programs
> usually are the ones with quirks.

I believe the reason MS apps run well under Executor is that Executor  
was specifically tailored to make them run well, since the emulator  
market was composed primarily of people who needed to retain  
compatibility with others still running Excel and Word on macs.  As  
efforts turn to other apps, I'm sure they'll get them running equally  
well.
In any case, it certainly is refreshing to see a vendor tell people  
'here are the current problems with our product; we're working on  
them, but right now they're there.'  Other vendors should take note.

>> However, we're real and we're doing a lot of cool work
>> and people are using our software to wean themselves from
>> Macintoshes.  The NeXT has many features that people want
>> and that Apple is planning on putting into Pink.  However,
>> I'm not here to sell you on NeXT, Executor or Pink.
> 
> This *does* sound cool -- and I'm glad you're not trying to
> sell me a NeXT. However, if people (by implication) need to
> be weaned from the Mac, why bother to offer them an option
> that involves using a new platform to use the same applications?
> 

Its hard to go cold turkey.  (1) Others will (at least for a time)  
continue to have the old platforms, and you want to communicate with  
them.  Usually, people moving on almost by definition go on to more  
powerful better machines; it is usually easier for more powerful  
machines to deal with less powerful ones than vice versa. (2) people  
have large installed bases of data files that they want to maintain  
access to.
You buy a new platform for its new applications.  But you don't want  
to totally abandon your old ones.  Being able to continue using some  
of the old ones makes the switch easier because it lets you spread it  
over time.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't)
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:15:07 GMT

In <ftjz3=k@rpi.edu> johnsd2@rs6219.ecs.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:

>In article <strobl.717719219@gmd.de>, strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:
>|> In <kmhzd9n@rpi.edu> johnsd2@vccnw01.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>[deletia- About Cut+Paste]
>|> 
>|> >Really? What are they under MS-Windows? I udnerstood they were
>|> >the the same thing, from the users point of view.
>|> 
>|> It depends on the user, of course. The main difference is that on the
>|> Macintosh, the exact interpretation of *what* is cut is done during
>|> cutting time, while on WIndows it can (not must, *can*) be delayed
>|> until pasting time. 

>I know about that. That's implementation stuff; the user should
>not see it. Its supposed to ACT like you were copying something
>to a clipboard, then pasting it back somewhere. Unlike Excel,
>where "copy" means "select until I do something else"...

Its NOT supposed to act like you were copying something to
a clipboard, then pasting it somewhere. The Human Inferface Guidlines
may say so, but why should Windows try to stick to that simple
model? In my opinion, the users decision whether to paste something
as text, picture, or as some object that has an internal construction that
depends on an agreement of the two cooperating applications,  belongs to 
the user, and it is better to give him the ability to delay
that decision until he actually *uses* (i.e. pastes) the object.

Often, this decision is an implied consequence of into what
application the paste goes. I.e. if I'm going to paste my
just cut out formula into my text processor, it's probably a
picture. But if I paste it into my spreadsheet, I'll probably
want it as a macro or a function definition. 

[...]


>|> Adding functionality to clicks to the background are a much better
>|> way to get "the systems" attention. Windows itself uses a double click
>|> to the background window to activate the task manager. I've used
>|> a utility which uses the *right* mouse button click to the 
>|> background to launch some kind of launch/switch popup menu, on
>|> occasion and found it moderately usefull.

>Ah, yes thats better. Of course, being able to have icons there
>which you could darg&drop to would be even better. (I know from
>personal experience; I keep much of my junk on the desktop juts
>for this reason)

Well, I prefer icons on my desktop denoting running applications
and icons inside windows denoting startable applications. On
my home machine, I have a notepad, the calendar loaded with my
generic calendar file, a alarm clock and a few other things in
my autostart group, all running as icons (some static, others
displaying usefull info) on the bottom of my screen. Everything
I need is not more than a single click away. 

Wolfgang Strobl
#include <std.disclaimer.hpp>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't)
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:33:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.011904.4981@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
|> In article <qdkzdx#@rpi.edu> johnsd2@rpi.edu writes:
|> > This conversion, incidentally, is only done when the app is switched
|> > into the background.
|> 
|> Why is there such a thing as the "background"?

Because it would be very inconvinient not to be able to stop
using whatever app you happen to be in. Putting it in the background
really just means (to the user) bringing something else to the front.
Perhaps you are refering to the fact that it would be nicer not to
have all of the apps windows in one layer. If so, please remember
that Windows stick them all in one window... [a la MDI]

That there should be something special about the "background" is
not something users must deal with, but I was talking about
how you code this stuff. One of the reasons to have such a thing
as a "background" is so that you can be told "ok, youre coming
to the foregroudn now, read the clipboard!" :) or "ok,
youre going into the background now, write the clipboard if you
want!"

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Vs. NeXT
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:55:41 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

In article <basiji.717089019@milton>  writes:
>Edu prices for a NeXTstation Turbo 8/250/greyscale 17" is circa $3300
>for our school and we don't even have the best edu deal from NeXT.
>To do development, you need to add $1000 for more HD/memory but all the
>development software tools will be included for free.


I might add that if you have friends at the school, or a NeXT Campus  
Consultant, you can add the development system on for free.  It's about 40  
megs of stuff, so you'll need to make room, but you don't need any more  
memory to run it.  What takes up the room beyond the 40 megs is on-line  
docs.

NeXT gives its customers full rights to all NeXTSTEP software, including  
the development tools.  What actually comes with your machine is entirely  
dependent on the size of your hard drive (i.e., how much stuff NeXT could  
put onto it).

--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Executor: Running Mac Programs on a NeXT
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:01:48 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Sep27.210127.18683@unmvax.cs.unm.edu>, ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews) writes:
> NOTE: those numbers 26 and 10 are the number of times
> faster Speedometer 3.01 under Executor on a 25MHz NeXTstation is than a
> Macintosh Classic.  If you want to normalize them to a IIci, they come out
> to about four and two respectively.
> 
> Detractors will be happy to know that currently Executor has many limitations
> including: No Color, No Sound, No AppleTalk, No Desk Accessories and no
> Script Manager Support.  In addition, some programs run very well 
> some have quirks and some don't run at all.

No Mac.

Seriously. You don't have color, appletalk, sound, script manager support.
Those are all important elements that make up a Mac. Ok, you don't have
color in all macs, but you have everything else.

I bet there are other missing things as well. AppleEvents, perhaps?

As it stands, your emulator, while a rich technological acheivement, isn't
even a Mac Plus yet. And those were discontinued, what, two years ago?

Good luck. 

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Subject: Re: When is a CLI faster than a GUI?
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:23:34 GMT

In <ewright.717703372@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

>In <strobl.717622336@gmd.de> strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:

>>That is, a dialog box saying

>>    Now deleting file 723 of 1324,
>>    Now deleting file 817 of 1324,
>>    Now deleting ... 
>>and so on, with a big ABORT button is a solution to that 
>>and similar problems?

>>I doubt it.

>A dialog that tells you what is about to happen, contains
>an icon signifying a dangerous operation, and contains a button
>you must choose *before* the operation can commence is a pretty
>good solution.

You mean, a dialog box which says: you're going to do the
equivalent of 'global except (memo*.* *.cpp) do cprint *.c*',
in the folder you are pointing to! Do you really want to
do that?", with an icon signifying that huge amounts of
c code coming out of your printer may be dangerous? :-)

>Furthermore, Macintosh programs do not have "abort" buttons
>because the Macintosh interface guidelines prohibit using
>this word in software.  The button says "cancel" instead.

>If you believe this is a minor interface issue, I will gladly
>find you a couple of pro-choice and pro-life activists who 
>you can "calmly" discuss it with.

Well, I'll never use the number 13 (and a few others 
I refrain from mentioning them here), in order not to 
offend anybody. If the above numbers have offended
somebody, please excuse - I'll try to use other,
nonoffensive numbers in the future. :-{

Excuse the sarcasm, please, but I think this is going a lot to 
to far.

Wolfgang Strobl
#include <std.disclaimer.hpp>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: When is a CLI faster than a GUI?
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:01:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: rpi.ydkz3z#
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.


In article <1992Sep29.122839.2626@news.cs.indiana.edu>, "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@apricot.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
|> Thus said ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright):
|> >In <1992Sep29.004928.26815@news.cs.indiana.edu> "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@mango.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
[deletia- various fun insults, but not at me so there! :) ]
|> >>\begin{not-to-be-taken-seriously}
|> >>Suppose you are addressing a subordinate in how to do something you want
|> >>done.  You are in a hurry, and want to express the idea quickly.  Which
|> >>of the following two subordinates is more valuable to you in this
|> >>situation:
|> >
|> >>- The one who takes a pithy textual description of the task and performs
|> >>  it immediately.  "Get coffee from 332-G."
|> >>- The one who requests you express the task to be done by playing
|> >>  charades, making particular movements to represent "go to room",
|> >>  selecting the room 332-G from a lengthy list, making gestures indicating
|> >>  that "coffee" is the thing you want him to get (or perhaps pointing to
|> >>  a little picture of coffee on a poster of lots of different items.)
|> >
|> >No, subordinate number three, who is bright enough to draw a map
|> >so that you can actually find Room 332-G.
|> 
|> I already know where Room 332-G is.  I'm trying to tell him to go
|> there and get coffee.  Preferably in two seconds or less, and without
|> disturbing the phone call I'm in the middle of or the six other tasks
|> floating around in my head.

Well, if people are going to go that that example seriously,
I'll drop in my 2 cents.

IMHO, your subordinate doesn't speak English. He speaks a limited
pidgeon of swahili, with occasionaly English words thrown in. The
gramar is minimal, and primitive where it does exist, the vocabular
is near zilch. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to point the dude
in the right direction? [ie, gesture?] Perhaps if you happened,
just be chance, to have picture of a cup o' coffee lying around
(now how'd that get there?)....

If computers could speak English, GUIs would be a minor
nicety, if they were used at all. But they don't, not yet anyway.

[we are trying to have him get the coffee, right?]

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't) (long)
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:18:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.163559.988@yvax.byu.edu> sean@digaudio.byu.edu writes:
>>On the other hand, DPS is a PIG! It's amazing that a Mac IIci visably
>>outperforms a 25MHz '040 NeXT.
>
>True enough.

Not true.

>  Then again, a PC writing directly to the screen kills a Mac  
>IIci.  So what?  It's a question of power versus speed.  IMHO, DPS is a  
>wonderful advancement over QuickDraw.  I just want to see how fast Apple's  
>new QuickDraw will be.

DPS on NeXTSTEP is an extremely efficient and highly optimized piece
of code.  It is certainly not a pig!  It _does_ look like it's slower
than QuickDraw, but it's doing far more.  Where QD blits bits, draws
ovals, arcs, rectangles, and bitmapped patterns, PostScript is a real
honest-to-goodness programming language that blits bits, draws ovals,
rectangles, and beziers along with clipping, halftoning, and on an on
--- all in a device and resolution independant way.

DPS benefits the developer more than the user.  There really isn't
anything you can't do on NeXTSTEP with DPS that you can't really do on
Macintosh with QD (they are, afterall, just computers <and fairly
similar ones at that...>.  How much effort and code it takes to do the
same things on each platform is where things start to really differ,
and when you have to write the printing code; that's where it gets
really hairy.


DPS really only directly benefits the user when it comes to dealing
with EPS graphics and printing.  NeXTSTEP actually draws the PS code
in an EPS file whereas Macintosh just shows you a "preview."  The
preview, if the file has one, starts to get really vague when you
scale or distort the image (one of the reasons you have to print
constantly when doing layout on Macintosh).  In printing, DPS RIPs
like a bat out of hell and can beat most printers and imagesetters
with much faster processors when RIPing to the same format.  That's
mainly because of Mach's VM system and a little bit of how optimized
DPS is, though.



andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "We shall not cease from exploration
Andrew Loewenstern      |  And the end of our exploring
Cube Technologies, Inc. |  Will be to arrive where we started
                        |  And know the place for the first time." -T.S. Eliot
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland)
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: IfI, UNIT-AVH
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 07:46:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.011703.4998@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da
Silva) wrote:
> 
> In article <6057.2ac6dd05@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
> > In article <1992Sep27.122135.22721@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> > > The Windows GUI is significantly better designed than Apple's, 
> 
> > <GACK!>
> 
> > You must be using some unusual, non-standard definition of the word "better".
> 
> Um, easier to learn and use. More powerful. More convenient. Less surprising.
> More easily generalizable. Better feedback.

Bull! 
Lets say that you are an "ordinary" user. You are in the program manager
and you insert a diskette with a program and some data on it. The datafile
is on the root level, but the application is three layers down in the
filetree.
How do you (an ordinary user without much computer experience) even know
that there is a diskette in the drive? How long does it take before you
have the
data displayed on the screen (remember - you are not a power-user?

> 
> > QUICK! What's the keyboard shortcut for copy and past?
> 
> I don't have it in front of me (haven't used it in years), but that's in the
> Edit menu. Paste will be ALT<EP>, and either cut or copy will be ALT<EC>. The
> other will be ALT<EU> or ALT<EO> respectively. The keyboard shortcuts are
> uniformally mnemonic for the menu selections. *and* they're displayed on the
> screen.
> 
> Quick, on the Mac, what's the keyboard shortcut for "Print Draft"?

That is not a standard choice, so it has no standard shortcut.

> 
> On the Mac, how do you tell just looking at the screen what programs you have
> running?

I use Applicon!

> 
> On the Mac, how do you get proportional scrollbars?

I'm not sure what the extension is called.

> 
> On the Mac, can you move the menu bar down to where you're working on a large
> screen?

I use PopIT!

> 
> Sure, the implementation of much of this sucks. PIF files, blech. But the GUI
> itself is VERY nice.

NOT. (Looks nice though.) 


Dept. of Informatics, UNIT, Trondheim, Norway
Internet : terjer@ifi.unit.no
AppleLink: NOR0103
Tlf : +47-7-591845
Fax : +47-7-591733
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: flui@fraser.sfu.ca (Francis Wai Gee Lui)
Subject: Re: Anyone ever wonder why no one emulates an Amiga??
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:10:33 GMT

In article <25SEP199213263287@lheavx.gsfc.nasa.gov> wilson@lheavx.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
>Ok you Amiga lovers, if your system is so damn good, then why isn't anyone
>emulating it???

a) It's impossible without the custom chipset, and by the time you interface
   that to a Mac NuBus or a PC ISA bus, the result would be something that
   is both too slow and as expensive as the real thing.

b) There IS a craving for it in the PC world.  When an "Amiga emulator" cropped
   up several months ago, PC users kept asking how they could get it to work.
   The truth was that it was a hoax.  If the Amiga is such a bad machine, why
   would people want to emulate it?

c) There's no need to, since you'd be getting one in the form of a Video
   Toaster workstation.  8^)

>I can see emulating DOS for those unfortunates who might need to run DOS 
>programs, or even Windows.  But no one really cares about the Amgia enough to 
>make it available to DOS users or Mac users.

I guess that also means that DOS/Windows/OS/2 users don't care enough about
the Mac to want to emulate it.

>Instead of commenting or replying why don't you Amgia lovers just create such a
>program and prove me wrong.

So YOU want an Amiga emulator too?  Ahhh...how we show our true colours.  :)

  __   __
 / /\ /_/\__   Francis Lui
/_/ /\\ \ \/\  e-mail: flui@sfu.ca
\ \  / \ \  /
 \ \ \  \_\/   You know you're a techno-dweeb when
  \_\/         floppy drive applies more to your love life,
               and hard drive to your machines.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: kchang@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Kenneth Chang)
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Originator: kchang@pluto.ncsa.uiuc.edu
Organization: Nat'l Ctr for Supercomp App (NCSA) @ University of Illinois
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:50:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.120625.11908@NeoSoft.com> peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>In article <kc-290992234801@chang.slip.uiuc.edu> kc@complex.ccsr.uiuc.edu (Kenneth Chang) writes:
>> >Preemptive
>> >multitasking?
>> For personal computers, this is by and large a non-issue. You can't word
>> process in the background.
>
>Ever printed a large, complicated document in a page layout program or
>structured graphics program? 

Um, yes.

>I can work while I'm doing Postscript rendering
>(a very CPU-intensive task) without hassles. I couldn't do that on a Mac,

Um, why not?
PrintMonitor spools the document in background, while I do other work.
(PrintMonitor *is* somewhat buggy. There are documents that for some
reason die with Postscript errors when PrintMonitor is in the background,
but print fine when PrintMonitor is the foreground app. Yes, that utterly
defeats the purpose of a print spooler, but that's bugs with PrintMonitor,
not an inherent limitation of cooperative multi-tasking.)

--ken chang
-- 
  Kenneth Chang           | National Center for Supercomputing Applications
  kchang@ncsa.uiuc.edu    |                 Consulting Office/(217)244-1144
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "Everything's entertainment in America eventually" -- Tracy Ullman
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy