HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Warning signs
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 03:46:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.221211.1128@comp.lancs.ac.uk> arb@comp.lancs.ac.uk
(Andrew Brooks) writes:
>...
>  1. Signs of depression (sleeplessness; gradual or sudden loss of
>appetite; persistent boredom or lack of interest; concentration
>difficulties; lack of energy of initiative)
>
>  2. Sudden personality changes (withdrawal from family or friends;
>apathy; moodiness; unexplained or unusually violent behaviour; unusual
>neglect of personal appearance)

I disagree with "unusually violent behavior".  I think that there
is something to be said for suicide by an intelligent person,
one who has been trained to achieve the faculties of higher intellect.
An example is Socrates.

It is entirely reasonable for an intelligent person to realize that
life isn't worth living because there's nothing left to live for.
Hence, he/she would quietly and unnoticeably exit this world.

Isn't it possible that an intelligent person could just sit down
one day, look at his life closely, and then come to the conclusion
that there isn't anything worth living for?  Then, he/she would
then do the logical thing of exiting this world--quietly and peacefully?

>
>  3. Suicide threats, even if made jokingly
>
>  4. Previous suicide attempts
>
>  5. Statements indicative of a preoccupation with death
>
>  6. Drug and/or alcohol abuse
>
>  7. Unexplained decline in the quality of schoolwork
>
>  8. Psychosomatic complaints
>
>  9. `Final arrangements' (such as giving away personal possessions).
>
>Loochtan, R.M. & Cole, R.M. (1991). Adolescent suicide in orthodontics:
>result of a survey.  American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial
>Orthopaedics, 100, 180-187
>
>
>It looks as though I'm near the end, folks!  There's only two on the
>list that don't apply to me, but I'm working on them...

Does anyone believe in re-incarnation, God, etc.?
Basically, does anyone believe in anything that suggests that there
is life after death and hence that there is the possibility of getting
a better "lot" in the next life?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: sprooney@unix1.tcd.ie (George McNoudal)
Subject: Re: Male-Female relationships explained
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:01:29 GMT


>> >Yes, but look at what newsgroups this point of view leads you to.
>> For even more fun, "finger" this guy for his .plan.
>> Real cheery fellow.

>I did finger 'ol Lucifuges account.  Neat stuff.  Why would anyone think
>of him as anything but cheery.  I thought the piano wire stuff was
>hilarious.

Yeah... he leaves his logout around a lot too.

mSion
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: drw@euclid.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley)
Subject: The recent Harper's magazine
Organization: MIT Dept. of Tetrapilotomy, Cambridge, MA, USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:13:29 GMT

The recent Harper's magazine has an article on a book on selling your
body parts, either before or after death.  The author claims that it
is the ultimate in the human potential movement.  Loompanics Unltd.
will be selling it soon.

Dale

Dale Worley		Dept. of Math., MIT		drw@math.mit.edu
--
Dwarves constantly maintain a facsimile of reality at a discrete
radius from my current location. One day I'll rise early, jump in my
car, and drive about a mile down the road only to find that it drops
off into an abyss--bored dwarves lounging behind construction
barricades.	-- "Set the Destroyer"
From: llama@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: METHODS
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:37:10 GMT


z_maraiajj@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:

> DON'T USE SLEEPING PILLS.  MY AUNT TRIED DOING IT THAT WAY.  IT DIDN'T WORK. 
> SHE WOUND UP BEING LOCKED UP IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL.

first of all, choice of method has little to do with whether you get
locked up or not... if you don't succeed in a suicide attempt, the
method doesn't have a lot to do with anything (except maybe how much
damage you managed to do to yourself).

second, sleeping pills do work, as lots of people have verified using
the experimental method.

finally, the most serious attempt i ever made involved large amounts
of benadryl and an hour puking into a bowl in a hospital er (syrup of
ipecac is your friend, really. bleah. yuck). after i was finished, i
got to talk to a social worker and a mental health deputy, who also
interviewed my therapist and the person who brought me to the er. i
told the official-seeming people that i really didn't wanna go to 
the local locked ward, and since i seemed calm (stoned out of my mind 
was more like it), promised not to do it again, and had a responsible-
seeming friend who agreed to take me home with him for the night, i 
was released without further comment or follow-up. and in case you're 
wondering, yeah, i had ingested a fatal dose.

so really, how attempters are treated depends a lot on how well they
can deal with the official-type people who interview them and what
kinds of resources they have.

sine nomine
debbie martinson
"consciousness is far more terrifying than any unconscious complexes."
					-- mikhail bakhtin
From: jjcox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Joshua Cox)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Lurking (was RE: Winter Depression?)
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:45:42 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon

If yall don't mind, I'm just going to follow your conversations here for a while.  Suicide is something I've always figured I would eventually do but never *wanted* to, and apparently it is something none of you *want* to do either, so I like what you've been saying.

And I especially appreciate Brady's suggestion to use lights to help ease winter depression.  I had never really thought of my suicidal "cycles" as being season-related, but you folks may be on to something, there.  Many thanks.

Sounds like you get pretty nasty come winter.  Hope none of you are paranoid, 'cause I plan to lurk about for a while.

-Josh
From: U56503@uicvm.uic.edu (Brady Woodward)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: Socrates (was Re: Warning signs)
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:17:19 GMT
 <1992Jul23.034645.19771@leland.Stanford.EDU>
 <1992Jul23.172144.29326@midway.uchicago.edu>
 <1992Jul23.193102.17134@leland.Stanford.EDU>
 <DRW.92Jul27110910@kronecker.mit.edu> <92210.023300U56503@uicvm.uic.edu>
 <
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago


In article <DRW.92Jul30141205@euclid.mit.edu>, drw@euclid.mit.edu (Dale R.
Worley) says:
>
>In article <92210.023300U56503@uicvm.uic.edu> U56503@uicvm.uic.edu (Brady
>Woodward) writes:
>   > /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
>   ><--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X-->
>   > \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
>   >   Official Argyle Mail Trailer
>
>   Dale Worley wins the creative signature of the week award hereby bestowed
>   on him.  The award: a free "lifetime" subscription to a.s.h.  ;))
>   (Of course, it is difficult to tell exactly how long this subscription
>   will run, but it will always be entirely free for the duration.  Congrats!)
>
>Sadly, I just decline the offer, because I cribbed it from somewhere.
>The philosophical source, however, is my girlfriend, who introduced me
>to the esthetic pleasures of Argyle socks...

Ah!  Yes!  They are coming back in.  I still have some of my fathers.

In a complete non-sequitor, thanks for that post on another group about
the airline litigation.  I got my form in the mail today and hope to
make enough on it some day for a winter vacation to relieve winter
depression!  Thanks again.

>Dale Worley             Dept. of Math., MIT             drw@math.mit.edu
>--
>The kids these days!  It used to be, "I didn't know Paul McCartney was
>in a band before Wings."  Now, it's, "Who's Paul McCartney?"
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=Brady Woodward +=+ U56503@UICVM=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
  SATAN to NEW-COMER: The trouble with you Chicago people is that you
  think that you are the best people down here, whereas you are merely
  the most mumerous. --Mark Twain  (All other thoughts are mine alone.)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy)
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Reply-To: ahawks@nyx.UUCP (andy)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 21:29:13 GMT

In article <mordea.0u0e@terapin.com> mordea@terapin.com (Annie Benson) writes:
|
|  Man, this is a depressing newsgroup.  You people should either lighten up or
|off yourselfs.  If you choose to do the later, wait till November, vote for
|Clinton so the rest of us have something to live for, then do it.

What kind of idiotic dumbasss shit is this??  You know where it says "Are you
really sure you want to do this? [ny]" when posting?  There's a reason that
the default is on [N]o!  You really ought to think twice before parading so
loudly in this group with your useless bullshit - and, gee, your political
comment made the post *so* worthwhile.  

Very ignorant post, all around.  A political comment that has no place in this
group.  A "command" from the lord almighty "lighten up our off yourselves" -
your insight truly astounds.  And of course the obvious astute observation
"man, how depressing".  Wow.  I'm in awe.

Please do us all a favor and don't make stupid generalizations like this, and
if the extent of your thoughtfulness is "lighten up or kill yourself" then
please keep your useless opinions to yourself, or take your ass back to
alt.st00pid where you normally reside.

aaahhh, I feel better than James Brown.  I feel much better now.
Flame all you want, we'll make more....as the saying goes...

Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Suicide Pacts
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 18:40:47 GMT

In article <14lnmdINNkto@agate.berkeley.edu> morishig@jell-o.berkeley.edu
(Nina Morishige) writes:
>...
>On a quite serious note, I've been wondering a lot about a number of
>ethics issues related to suicide for the past year. One big problem
>I have is the following topic. I know this group seems to condone suicide,
>but what do you think of suicide + murder? Or maybe that should
>more correctly be something like suicide + euthanasia.

Murder is wrong.
Suicide is acceptable.
Euthansia is acceptable if both parties are consenting and over the
socially accepted age of being considered responsible for one's
actions.  (~ 18 years of age)

>... I'm thinking of cases where you don't feel able to keep
>living, but you have someone whose existence is very dependent on your own.
>E.g. mother kills toddler before killing herself; or perhaps along similar
>lines of reasoning,

This is murder, and it is wrong.

However, it is acceptable for the mother to commit suicide as long
as she does nothing to the toddler.

>... Or, suppose it involves a relationship
>where both parties are on a more equal footing, and one party
>feels suicidal. Should he/she try to talk the other into a suicide pact? 

If the parties are consenting, then it's okay.

>Or, if you know your SO wanted to die (but was in perfect physical health),
>would you help him/her to do so?

If the parties are consenting, then it's okay.

>Then would you be able to live with
>yourself afterwards, or would you feel compelled to kill yourself as well?

If I had something to live for, then "no".

>This is an issue which I can't seem to discuss rationally with anyone, 
>except maybe as a joke.

Death isn't funny.

>  I didn't even realise that suicide alone 
>was illegal here for a long time, but I imagine suicide pacts are also 
>a definite no-no.
>
>Any comments would be welcome. I'd prefer e-mail as I find it kinda
>difficult to discuss a lot of painful (for me) issues in a public forum.
>Sorry if this topic has already been debated in the past.  
>
>
>Thanks,
>Nina

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: mcb@wam.umd.edu (Merrick Charles Berg)
Subject: hope for pegasus
Originator: mcb@rac1.wam.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
 Hey Pegasus!
  If you happen to be browsing thru here, drop me a line.  
 I,d like to chat with you. I can't seem to get a letter out to Honolulu.
                                    mcb@wam.umd.edu 
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:29:58 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: RE: METHODS
From: z_maraiajj@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:03:17 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

DON'T USE SLEEPING PILLS.  MY AUNT TRIED DOING IT THAT WAY.  IT DIDN'T WORK. 
SHE WOUND UP BEING LOCKED UP IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL.
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: flatline@eskimo.celestial.com (Flatline)
Subject: Untitled.. (any ideas?)
Organization: I tattooed my brain all the way...
Distribution: alt.suicide.holiday
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:38:23 GMT

I sit here in the darkness
Coldness washes over me
As I feel the emptiness
inside my helpless body
I do not feel anymore
Nor do I care what happens
I am comfortably numb
 
the blade glints in the pale light
the pounding drums are heard
my tears are dry as i wonder why
i am so alone in this madness
i feel the pain tearing my flesh
no pain or emotion inside
i draw the razor across my skin
calming the demons within.

-- 
I've always been mad, I know I've    | get out of my face and watch me die
been mad, like the most of us...     | 
very hard to explain why you're mad, |    flatline@eskimo.celestial.com
even if you're not mad...            | 
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: lewis@aera8700.mitre.org (Keith Lewis)
Subject: Re: Suicide Pacts
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:34:33 GMT

In article <14lnmdINNkto@agate.berkeley.edu>, morishig@jell-o.berkeley.edu 
(Nina Morishige) writes:
>Any comments would be welcome. I'd prefer e-mail as I find it kinda
>difficult to discuss a lot of painful (for me) issues in a public forum.

I don't find it difficult and I think this discussion should be open, so
I'll post.  I read all my email, though.

>himself. I'm thinking of cases where you don't feel able to keep
>living, but you have someone whose existence is very dependent on your own.
>E.g. mother kills toddler before killing herself; or perhaps along similar
>lines of reasoning, old woman specifies in will that favourite pet will be put
>down upon the event of her death.  Or, suppose it involves a relationship
>where both parties are on a more equal footing, and one party
>feels suicidal. Should he/she try to talk the other into a suicide pact? 

Suicide is a very personal decision.  If you make that decision for someone
else, you are treating that person as something inferior to yourself.  Once
you are gone, you will not care who died with you.  

Suicide is also a very permanant.  Nobody who isn't sure about it should do
it.  Therefore, I think nobody should even pressure somebody else to do it. 
"OK, let's jump.  One, two, three,..."  I guess there could be circumstances
that would justify group suicide, such as limited munitions:  "I only have 
one bullet, so if you want to die, put your head right next to mine."

As for one person being dependant on the other, I am skeptical.  An
abandoned infant or lover certainly has a fighting chance at a decent life. 
If your lover later decides to off himself, that's his private decision. 
You won't even find out; why should you care?

>Or, if you know your SO wanted to die (but was in perfect physical health),
>would you help him/her to do so? Then would you be able to live with
>yourself afterwards, or would you feel compelled to kill yourself as well?

Help her commit suicide?  That would be like setting her up with other guys. 
I would certainly acknowledge her right to do it, but I would not help.  I
would feel very hurt by the fact that she even wanted to do it.

>This is an issue which I can't seem to discuss rationally with anyone, 
>except maybe as a joke.  I didn't even realise that suicide alone 
>was illegal here for a long time, but I imagine suicide pacts are also 
>a definite no-no.

Suicide may be illegal, but they can't punish you for it.  :^)

Keith Lewis             klewis@mitre.org          "Mr. Cheap"
I don't dance to music; music dances to me.  Email me for my corrected PGP key.
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Ten Commonalities of Suicide
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:25:31 GMT
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

Since when did sexist jokes come under "suicide" ?  However it does seem that
there are some pretty depressed people out there,  so maybe this will help ease
any feelings of lonesomeness.  YOU ARE NOT ALONE, yet that does not excuse one
for dwelling on suicide ideation.  Instead it increases the importance of
understanding and fighting what is essentially an 'abnormal' feeling (in that
99.9% of human endeavour is aimed at survival).

In his book "Definition of Suicide",  Schneidman puts together all the findings
generally agreed upon in the medical/therapuetic world,  developing "The Ten
Commonalities of Suicide":
1.The common STIMULUS in suicide is unendurable psychological pain.
2.The common STRESSOR in suicide is frustrated psychological needs.
3.The common PURPOSE of suicide is to seek a solution.
4.The common GOAL of suicide is cessation of consciousness.
5.The common EMOTION in suicide is hopelessness/helplessness.
6.The common INTERNAL ATTITUDE toward suicide is ambivilence.
7.The common COGNITIVE STATE in suicide is constriction.
8.The common INTERPERSONAL ACT of suicide is communication of intention.
9.The common ACTION is suicide is eggression (escape).
10.The common CONSISTENCY in suicide is with life-long coping patterns.

Whad'ya'say?
Jonathan.
From: U56503@uicvm.uic.edu (Brady Woodward)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Winter Depression?
Date: 28 Jul 92 07:40:40 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I have been on this group for almost a year now, and I have been
noticing a distinctively changed tone on the group during the late
spring and summer months as opposed to late fall and winter and
early spring.  The group now seems to discuss abstract issues of
suicide more and the tone seems to be lighter with more humor.
There do not seem to be as many posts regarding
actual personal suicidal situations pending and imminent.

Perhaps some of this is due to posters not being on the nets
during the summer so the group composition may have changed.  I don't
think this is the entire explanation however.  I suspect that
the effects of winter depression (Seasonal Affective Dirorder)
are much more prevalent than anyone yet recognizes.

It appears to me that the tone of the posters has improved
markedly over that of winter and early spring.  I expect the tone
to start sinking again about the second week in October if my
theory is correct, hitting the lows in late January.

I wonder if others have ideas on this possibility.  I know that
lack of sunlight here in Chicago in the winter has a distinctive
effect on the mood of most residents.  Using special full-spectrum lights
indoors here in the winter improves mood markedly for many people.

Brady

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=Brady Woodward +=+ U56503@UICVM=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
  SATAN to NEW-COMER: The trouble with you Chicago people is that you
  think that you are the best people down here, whereas you are merely
  the most mumerous. --Mark Twain  (All other thoughts are mine alone.)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
From: sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (Stephen J. Okay)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: Winter Depression?
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:55:03 GMT
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA

In article <92212.013515U56503@uicvm.uic.edu> Brady Woodward <U56503@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.161227.15697@linus.mitre.org>, sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
>(Stephen J. Okay) says:
>>
>>
>>Horribly cruel and sadistic ASH-like thought:
>>Lets run a net.pool on how many times we think he's going to try it this
>>year and whether or not he'll succeed. I say more than 10 and no he won't.
>
>This is pretty low ;)) at that but I can understand the idea.

Low!?!?...nahhh...Just being creatively dark as usual. "Deal with it
pink boy!" 
The one thing thats damn depressing about it is that its the most 
creative I've been in the past couple months.....Maybe its just a
lack of material(read:ASHers). 

>friends.  We'll check back on your bet in the fall.  Funny that even a
>continuous suicidal state bores people after a while.  Still, the
>fretting about it is better than if he actually did it I feel.

This is true....going over my wrists with the X-acto or staring at
Mr. Sominex contemplating the pit does get kind of boring after a while.
Especially after 3 or 4 hours.
You can only toy with the blade for so long before saying "Oh f*** it,
lets go get some drink!".

On the other hand, depression is one of the more interesting emotions.
After about a year or so of intense research, I'm convinced you can feel
a lot more and there is a much greater range of things to feel from 
being really really depressed than any other emotion. You'd be surprised
how much you can really FEEL when you're in the pit.

>Well, I think the entire group is more agreeable.  This substantiates
>my winter depression theory.  We will be at each other's throats again
>perhaps between Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day.

Don't push it!!! }:)

---Steve
-- 
Stephen Okay  sokay@mitre.org
"Welcome to the Politically Correct States of America. Please turn your mind
in to the nearest oppressed minority pressure group. It will be returned to
you once we've decided what you can think"
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: sokay@cyclone.mitre.org (Stephen J. Okay)
Subject: Re: Winter Depression?
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:00:54 GMT

In article <92210.024040U56503@uicvm.uic.edu> Brady Woodward <U56503@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>
>Perhaps some of this is due to posters not being on the nets
>during the summer so the group composition may have changed.  I don't
>think this is the entire explanation however.  I suspect that
>the effects of winter depression (Seasonal Affective Dirorder)
>are much more prevalent than anyone yet recognizes.

Well, for one thing, the Bradford crew isn't here...they're either 
dead  or home until the fall....

As for SAD, I'm almost convinced that I am affected given the fact that
I happen to get horribly depressed during the fall and winter, esp. here in
Va. where its always so cold and dark and rainy during the winter. About the
only good thing about winter is the snow that lets me ski. November and
February are particularily angstful and depressing months...


---Steve
-- 
Stephen Okay  sokay@mitre.org
"Welcome to the Politically Correct States of America. Please turn your mind
in to the nearest oppressed minority pressure group. It will be returned to
you once we've decided what you can think"