From: kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
Subject: Re: Asian Immigrants on SAT English
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 01:55:14 GMT

In article <121970@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov writes:
>In article <92098.085800U49146@uicvm.uic.edu> U49146@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>->In article <121835@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>, tcheung@ramius.ocf.llnl.gov says:
>->>
>->>In article <92095.184430U49146@uicvm.uic.edu> U49146@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>->>->In article <56838@cup.portal.com>, Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com says:
>Yes.  And they also say that even if you qualify to get in, they are many 
>qualified candidates.   They can only take a few.  I was in a summer program
>sponsor by university for high school students and they suggest that if
>yoiu really want to get into a competitive program you should not take
>TOEFL.

I hope you're not the one poking fun at Yumei's English, or I would have to
pick this paragraph apart for you...  <No smiley if you were the one who
made fun of her; insert smiley if you were not.>

Doesn't it make sense not to take the TOEFL if you want to get into a very
competitive program?  I would compare taking the TOEFL to playing basketball
in a league for people 5'6" and under.  If you want to be compared to that
limited population, fine.  If you strive to be the best, you must compete
with the best.

>->And yeah I know of people who took the SAT in less than 7 months
>->since they were in this country and others who took it before even setting a fo
>->ot here.  Now how long you stayed here before you took the SAT, and whether or
>->not it was fair is a relative question.  Since English is an international lang
>->uage, I assume you had some kind of exposure to it in your school in Asia.
>
>Yeah, since English is such a popular language, we can very safely assume that
>everyone got some exposure to it before high schol.  Give me a break, in
>some Asian countries students don't learn anything beyond the 26 letter.
>Why do they need to learn English if they stay in their countries?

That is true.  But don't use that as an excuse for not learning English if
you wish to attend school in an English-speaking country.

>You must be so smart that you can master a language in 4 years.  I wish
>I can be as smart as you...

Me, too :-)  However, I do have friends who have had very good English
skills when they were in the country for that time.  (Though, I must admit,
I doubt I could learn a foreign language that quickly--my foreign language
ability is almost nil.)

>->Anyway my whole po
>->int is that compared to native speakers, I don't see how these smart kids lose
>->ut because of English skills.  If theyare applying to prestigious schools, they
>->certainly have a lot of essays etc where they can make their situations perfect
>->ly clear.
>
>And I believe those admission committee members really sit down and analyze
>every essay carefully.

I'd have to agree with Terry on this one.  If I were looking for a job or
school candidate, and an applicant writes an essay/cover letter with poor
English, I would not be sympathetic to him.  My resume has been put in the
reject pile simply because I have a Chinese last name and the reviewer
thought I would not be able to speak English enough for the job.  (When she
met me, she said, "I'm surprised your English is so good!")  So I doubt
each case can seriously be evaluated that closely, unless the applicant
passes the first few cuts.

>->Anyway my und
>->erstanding is that Asians (as some people like to hammer it) usually enroll in
>->technical fields, so I don't see where it really matter unless of course the co
>->lleges want to use it as a criterion b/n otherwise equally qualified candidates
>->

Is this true for undergraduates?  Even in technical fields, the importance
of communication and presentation skills cannot be overemphasized.  If good
writing skills are not necessary for admission now, they should be.

>I believe there is a general minimum overall SAT score requirement for some
>school and some majors.

You're right.  Because of this quirk, I have an acquaintance who was rejected
by the University of Texas and was accepted by Yale.