From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime
Subject: Re: This has gotta stop (was Re: AnimeWhateverCon '93)
Date: 23 Jul 1992 18:34:06 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <gX2BoB5w165w@clubzen.fidonet.org> fafhrd@clubzen.fidonet.org (Fafhrd) writes:
>jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>
[...]
>> 
>> And frankly, (and this is because I don't know you), I have no reason to
>> believe that your main motivation is for anime fans best interest.  Clues
>> to back this up include the July 4th weekend decision, among other stuff
>> previous posters have mentioned.  This is after all your "I have nothing
>> against [insert name]" phrases you've been stating, which is all fine
>> and dandy, but as for me, actions usually are a more clear sign of one's
>> intentions.  Calling Mike someone who "works behind the scenes" with subtle
>> implication that he deals in an unglamorous fashion, is not a harmless 
>> statement about someone whom one has "nothing against".  Again, I feel like
>> certain people think that by just saying phrases like "I have nothing
>> against you"  they can say anything and that it'll be ok.  I'm going
>> to say this again:  stop treating us like fools.  If you have nothing
>> against these people, you and I both know you can act very differently.
>> 
>> If you are unwilling to consider the option of no AnimeCon for the sake
>> of AnimeExpo, I do not see why anyone in their right mind should have
>> to consider no AnimeExpo for the sake of AnimeCon.
>
>Jun - 
>
>First of all, that you are willing to ascribe base motives to me simply 
>because you don't know me makes me less than inclined to beleive that you 
>will listen to anything I have to say, but i will attempt to do so 
>anyway.
>

Well, David, I guess I wasn't precise enough with what I wrote.  My point
was that I don't know you so the best I can do is to remain neutral toward
you and see what else there is that needs to be known about you.  I did not
attribute "base motives" to you on the mere fact that I don't know you.
That would be a little close-minded if you asked me, and I try not to be as
long as logic is prevailing.

What I have been picking up, however, from your posts and learning bits
and pieces here and there, is not a clean a slate as you'd probably like.
Hence my reservations.  Keep in mind, that's just the way _I_ feel, but
I like to see actions back up the words people say, and I just haven't
seen any actions.  (Or at least not actions I feel truly has the fans
interest in mind...)  What I've seen is a lot of prodding, innuendo, 
and enough ego to make me sick.  I don't think those kinds of things
are in the flowchart of preparing for a convention. 

>As for the subject of Mike Tatsugawa: when I report the actions he has 
>taken, or commented on his own statements on-line, I cannot help the 
>implications. When HE states that he will ignore my messages, what the 
>HELL do you expect me to say about it in a positive manner? When he and I 
>make an agreement IN FRONT OF WITNESSES to remain silent about the cons 
>until we've had a chance to come to a modus vivendi, and he breaks it, 
>WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DO? Ignore it, and hope it'll go away? 
>

Do we really need these up to the moment reports on Mike's actions?  Why
do you feel the need?  Is he doing the same thing to you?  You'll have
to tell me the newsgroup, cuz it doesn't seem to be this one.  You don't
need to talk to Mike over the net.  If he's not talking to you over the
phone, I'm sure you're not calling everyone and complaining (or rather
reporting) on the subject.  If you want to write progress reports, that
might be more helpful.  But since there is no progress, there shouldn't
be any posts.  Now, I'm not implying that I don't want you to post, since
there is still a lot to be learned about you and AC93 and so on.  But 
info posts and complaint posts are two different things. (So are 
slamming posts, but that's a different matter.)  From the contents of your
posts, I arrive at the feeling that there was a lot of ego-politics,
and ego-bashing in the preface sequences to this whole affair.   And I
can see why someone might not want to talk to people who refuse to budge.
It's a waste of time.

And another thing:  what do you want us to do about it?  Do you want us to
scold Mike for being bad and not talking to you?  I for one, have certain
people I do not enjoy talking to.  Mike has his right to have people like
that also.  Why you ended up on his list has yet to be addressed, but
I'm not going to tell people whom they should want to talk to and whom
they shouldn't.  My only clue to the as to why you are on the list is
what I gleaned from your posts, and that is the feeling that, "godammit!
there will be an AC93 on the July 4th weekend!"  I can see why dealing
with attitudes of that caliber can lead to ulcers.  Just maybe, (and this
is totally a supposition) Mike thought that talks were getting nowhere
(since no one seems willing to budge) and that there is nothing more to
talk about.  I can see his point.
 
As to what I'd like to see you do:  If you really feel this is important,
don't do it over the net.  I don't think anything replaces talking to
someone in person.  If he doesn't want to talk, then see if loosening
some of your stipulations might help ease the tension.  If that doesn't
work, try a complete clean slate, and work from there.  If you really
want a single con, you have to be willing to sacrifice for it.

>I hardly think that the assembled on-line anime fandom are idiots. 
>However, what YOU read into things are not necessarily what I mean. You 
>can over-analyze things, y'know.

Well, over-analyzed or not, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
There are ways to avoid that sensation.

>
>There are a lot of things which are bot TRUE and INFLAMMITORY which I 
>have refrained from commenting on (and which I'm not about to start on 
>here....). I do NOT wish to start slamming Mike, and I do not have any 
>personal animosity towards him, but, IMO, he is making a huge mistake, 
>and has several major mis-conceptions about situation. As I have stated 
>before on-line, I want very much to talk with Mike about reconciliation 
>on-line, and in public, with people checking our statements and 
>motivations along the way. I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE (of course, the cynics 
>in the audience are about to say "ah hah! Implying that MT DOES have 
>something to hide, and Dave is SLAMMING Mike by implying such". Which 
>illustrates my point about people reading too much into things)!
>
Obviously, there is a new cynic in our midst... :)

About the "TRUE and INFLAMMATORY" stuff on Mike, well, if you do end up
running a con, I'm sure we can all make another list.  This is not to
say that you'll do a bad job, but it's inevitable to step on some toes
and make compromises when in that kind of postion.  So don't pick
on Mike just cuz he's vulnerable.

Secondly, the net, as I'm sure you know, is a very funny place.  People
type away with mistakes and typos in their articles, then turn around
and make fun of typos in another's article.  They can get quite unfair
and hypocritical.  That is why these posts should be more thought out 
than they are.  That's why you shouldn't write things which can be 
misinterpreted unless you are willing to deal with the consequences.  
That is why so many of your "reports" sound a little derogatory.

If you feel that you are just "writing the truth" then do it in a tone
which is as objective as possible.  If you feel that you need to be
subjective, again, be ready to deal with the consequences.  

If all this sounds messy to you, you're right.  That's why all this needs to
be taken off-line.  _Off-line_.  And do what it takes to get that done.
Not by pressuring Mike, but by enticing him.  By making the solution
equitable enough to allow him to feel that progress can be made and a
compromise reached.  If you can do that, I don't care if it's in a
public forum or your bathroom.

>Obviously, I think that my nascent orginazation can run a better anime 
>convention that Mike's can. I have the majority of senior staff from 
>Animecon '91 and Anime Expo '92 in my court,and after the September staff 
>meeting, I will post the staff list here. If I thought that MT's org 
>could run a better con, I would fold my tent and join him. It's that 
>simple.
>

I think Conty commented about this paragraph, so I won't.


--
Jun Kim                                    jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems           "It's amazing that that tiny little brain of his 
Mountain View, CA           can generate enough energy to keep his legs moving" 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime