HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Anthony Berno)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Ugliness (was Bears and Lookism)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:23:51 GMT
Reply-To: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca

In article <Bxz8Fy.Fwu@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the  
Crisco Kid) writes:
> In article <1992Nov18.233802.6861@psych.toronto.edu>  
paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings) writes:
> >In article <BxxFB0.91H@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk  
(the Crisco Kid) writes:
> >>In article <1992Nov17.213558.4677@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca>  
aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca writes:
> >>>Interesting discussion. How about the perspective of someone who is  
ugly?  
> >>But first you'll have to find someone who'll come out as ugly...
> >NEVER!
> 
> I don't know.  I guess there are people out there who think I'm ugly.
> Fine.  So I'm ugly to them?  Whoop-de-doo.  The most wonderful guy
> in the world thinks I'm beautiful...

Now that I think about it, I've met a fellow in Seattle that wears a pin  
reading "Ugly and PROUD". *I* wouldn't kick him out of my bed, however.
:-)

You see, when people ask me what I like in a man, my short response is  
"Big, Dumb and Ugly". (Using the terms with great affection, of course.)  
This is to a great extent true, although I don't like all ugly men, and  
some of my lust objects are rather classically handsome...

It's a problem, you see, because I feel a strong cognitive dissonance when  
faced with certain men. My simultaneous reactions are "Wow, he's ugly" and  
"Wow, he's BEAUTIFUL!". One side is the judgement of society; the other is  
my own. The latter has never successfully drowned out the former, although  
for the past five years it has definitely had the upper hand.

There was a time, however, when I would feel a certain inexplicable  
attraction to men, to which I reacted by saying to myself "You can't be  
attracted to HIM..." My feeling is that there are a very large number of  
people for whom this is true, which is tragic, since that implies a very  
large number of lonely men going home to an empty bed when in fact there  
are any number of people that are attracted to them. The pressure to not  
express an attraction for the "wrong" person is very strong, and is at  
least half the reason that some people have a hard time finding dates.

So there are two sides to "ugly-liberation". One is from ugly people  
rejecting what society tells them. The other half is people letting  
themselves acknowledge that what society finds ugly is what they find  
beautiful. After all, the person that finds ugliness where others find  
beauty is a boor; the person that finds beauty where others find ugliness  
is an artist.

-Anthony

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jchovan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John D Chovan)
Subject: Re: Effeminacy/Butchitude (was Re: discrimination at CMU)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 12:12:41 GMT

>> First, I don't beleive that there are a core group of behaviors which
>> all gay men have.
>
>Do you even know the play?  Are you aware that Arnold is an
>effeminate, swishy *drag* *queen*?  That's the character.
>Playing him too butch is WRONG, and pointing that out is
>not homophobic.
...
>Effeminate, swishy drag queens exist.  And if you don't believe me,
>just drop by my neighborhood any night of the week and you'll see
>several dozen of them hanging around in front of our friendly
>neighborhood drag bar.  Is there something wrong with drag queens?
>Or do you subscribe to GLAAD's reactionary agenda, which tries to
>paper over the non-1950s-Doris-Day-movie subcommunities within
>the gay/lesbian community?
>
But, not all drag queens are swishy men.  Some of the butchest guys
make the best female impersonators!...Drag should not be confused
with feminine men, it's an ILLUSION!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Ins and Outs
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:59:15 GMT


In article <1992Nov16.185553.16402@PacBell.COM>
rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

>[George Stephanopoulos is ] also 31-years-old and single.

My gaydar hasn't been calibrated recently, but the level
reads pretty high on Mr. Stephanopouplos.  On the other
hand, it didn't go blip on Pete Williams, so go figure.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: drb@kepler.unh.edu (InigoMontoya)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Date: 15 Nov 1992 03:57:59 GMT
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

AUGH!
First of all, I would like to know how many of the people who have been
posting on this thread are actors.  I must admit that I don't really know
what goes on at 'professional' acting schools, but I do know what sort of
training I recieved.  I know what I was taught being an actor means.  Acting
is not done in isolation.  Acting, like all other sincere artistic expression,
comes from experience, from life, from the individual.  It seems to me then,
that these so-called mannerisms aren't all that much of a drawback.  Granted,
someone who can only play one role may not earn much respect as an actor, but
even this hardly means that she won't be succesful.

Now, here's a little logic.
(I don't mean to seem condescending here, I just thought that I would do
what is so rarely done in an argument and put the hypothesis into a clear,
logical form for all to see.


Fallacy:
If a student is not succesfully accomplishing the goals of her program, she
will be asked to leave by the faculty in a letter stating the reason.
A student was asked to leave in a letter stating the reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The student was not succesfully accomplishing the goals of her program.


It is subtle, but this is the fallacy of confirming the consequent, and it
is what you people are doing.  You do not know if this young man was a
capable actor.  All you do know, from what was posted is that he was kicked
out.  You are concluding from this fact that the faculty must have been
correct.  I don't know why, but somehow it seems much more likely to me that
an influential faculty member was allowing his personal prejudices (in this case
against homosexual men and overweight women apparently) to cloud his judgement.
This is hardly professional.  Again, I don't have any overwhelming evidence to
support this conclusion, but I think that the fact that 16 (or 18?) students
were kicked out for these reasons, combined with the fact that CMU has itself
concluded that these activities constituted wrong doing, point in that
direction.

-- 
Dean R Biron			drb@escher.unh.edu            -><-
University of New Hampshire Research Computing Center         -><-
Prefector of the order of St Gulik, Legion of Dynamic Discord -><-
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: junikka@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jari Junikka)
Subject: Re: German chaos continues
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 06:24:01 GMT


From reading European papers and watching Italian tv news,
it seems that the German government has been more worried
about its image abroad than actually effectively countering
the violence. That neo-nazis enjoy special sympathy in 
ex-Eastern Germany is commonly reported. On the other hand,
most of the organizers actually are from Western parts of
the Germany.

By the way, someone high in the German military said he'd
make sure that the military's reputation is not tarnished
by neo-nazis and everyone with any connection with neo-nazi
groups would be fired.

The anti-not-us (us = anything different from us) sentiments
are unfortunately in rise in Europe in general. The refugees/
immigrants from Baltic States to Finland surfaced anti-foreigner
sentiments in Finland. The headlines talked about "mafia run by
russians/Estonians".

In Italy, in the local election in some Northern province
neo-nazi party gained majority.

I think for things to stay under control, the European countries
MUST address the hatred with a united and strong voice.


jari
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:54:57 GMT

richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:

>Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:

>>Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's black and
>>does rap music to prove it.....  *UGH*.

>I find your statement above to be fairly racist and worthy of calling to
>your attention.  Surely you did not mean it to sound as it reads?  

>On the other hand, considering how anti-anything-but-bears you've 
>established yourself to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a
>most offensive way.  I'll hope not and look for a clarification.

Hear hear. I've been wondering to myself if George's hystronics
could be interpreted as sexist and racist; discussion?

--
John Dorrance        * Sexyfunky Motherfuckerdiva *   thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu

		I bet if you threw that ass into the air
			It'd turn into sunshine!
From: junikka@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jari Junikka)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Amnesty International
Date: 17 Nov 92 07:24:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: schaefer.1992Nov17.072413.17733
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics

mjh4@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mark Jonathan Handel) writes:

>Does anyone know if Amnesty International recognizes sexual
>preference as one of their "protected" rights - I remember
>hearing something that the global organization, based in 
>London does not, while the US organization does.

>There are some posters around here that claim Amnesty does
>recognize people who are arrested on the basis of their
>sexual preference as prisoners of consciounce (sp?), and
>I wanted to check up on that.

Yep. The International Council Meeting in Tokyo (if my memory
serves right) last year changed the mandate of the Amnesty International
to include sexual orientation. The mandate currently is something like
(from my memory..)

Amnesty International advocates the unconditional release 
of prisoners of conscience. A prisoner of conscience is 
a person who has been arrested due to their political opinions, religious beliefs,
nationality, ethic origin, language, sexual orientation, and who has not USED OR
ADVOCATED the use of violence.

Amnesty International works for a fair and prompt trial for all political
prisoners.

Amnesty International opposes torture and death penalty in all cases
without exception.


jari
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rich@netcom.com (Richard Poppen)
Subject: Re: Clinton Should Issue Pardons
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:30:19 GMT

In article <19921116165906ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
>There are hundreds of men languishing in Arkansas prisons today,
>having been convicted of [homosexual sodomy].

This amazes me, if true.  Even in states in which the laws are still on
the books, they are very rarely enforced.  Do you have a reference, or
are you inferring that this must be the case from the fact that the law
still exists?

--Rich
From: jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: ARchtypes and visibility
Date: 23 Nov 92 12:30:11 GMT
Organization: 3L Ltd, 86/92 Causewayside, Edinburgh EH9 1PY, UK

In article <1992Nov18.171650.18589@spdcc.com>,
rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

> 	It'snot that I have anything against smooth/muscle
> guys like Marky or those who have walked the path before
> him...  it's the unspoken assumption that the one archetype
> speaks for all.  Fudge ripple is a great flavor of ice
> cream, but sometimes the tutti frutti tastes good too. 

Not entirely relevant to BBC's posting, but never mind... 

I'm a person who's mostly attracted to the hairless types,
though there are notable exceptions. 

But I really like to see a classic bear, big, tall, broad,
bearded and hairy.  There's something, I don't know, heroic
about him.  I may not be attracted to him sexually, but
somehow he lights up my day.  And they're so good for a
cuddle, too. 

Must be my inate cubbishness coming out, I suppose...

--John
From: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Anthony Berno)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Bears and Lookism (was: Marky Mark)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:35:58 GMT
Reply-To: aberno@godel.questor.wimsey.bc.ca


Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>  Well, not quite. He's an ugly white boy who thinks he's
>  black and does rap music to prove it.....  *UGH*.

richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>  I find your statement above to be fairly racist and worthy
>  of calling to your attention.  Surely you did not mean
>  it to sound as it reads? On the other hand, considering
>  how anti-anything-but-bears you've established yourself
>  to be, perhaps you mean what you wrote in a most offensive
>  way.  I'll hope not and look for a clarification.

John Dorrance writes:
>  Hear hear. I've been wondering to myself if George's
>  hystronics could be interpreted as sexist and racist;
>  discussion?

Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>  Try looking at it from the perspective of a Bear who's
>  sick and tired of being "invisible" in the mainstream
>  gay media -- much as many gay people are tired of being
>  nonexistent in the mainstream media of this country.



Interesting discussion. How about the perspective of someone who is ugly?  
You yourself insulted Marky Mark as being "ugly", following it up by  
"UGH". The fate of bears is not *nearly* so difficult as those who simply  
do not have marketable looks at all. Bears have at least some exposure in  
mainstream gay media, and also have their own cultural institutions. How  
many porn magazines, advertisements, or TV shows do you see featuring  
amputees? People with port-wine birthmarks on their faces? Ones that  
simply are ugly? Your discussions of the marginalization of bears will  
carry no weight until you stop making such expressions of lookism. 

As a person who is very often attracted to those that are *quite* far from  
what any media source considers marketable, it absolutely kills me to see  
how absolutely devastating media (and interpersonal) lookism can be to an  
individual. Personal tastes are fine; like you, I have no sexual taste for  
the hairless set. But saying "ugh" is just plain cruel. 

So if you are going to complain about the invisibility of bears, think  
twice about the way you speak of others.

-Anthony

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: colorado springs
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:17:42 GMT

> bartlett@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Terry Bartlett) writes:

>This, unfortunately is true.  A friend of mine who teaches high school
>here has decided to give up, move to Denver, and look for a job there.

I do hope your friend tells his administration, students and
school board precisely why he's making this move.  They need
to be made aware of the human cost -- to them as well as the
teachers -- of this amendement.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Colorado: My 2 cents
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<mattm-171192161603@mcmelmon.apple.com>
	<1992Nov18.170826.13842@PacBell.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:19:40 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Nov18.170826.13842@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:

   I haven't seen anything about this here, but I'm informed
   that Colorado was much discussed at last weekend's Creating
   Change conference in LA.  The consensus from that gathering
   of ~1500 activists from across the country was that, instead
   of boycotting Colorado, queers should kill the place with
   *niceness*.

[some stuff deleted]

   Sounds pretty clever to me, and this strategy would completely
   disarm the opposition, while a boycott would play right into
   their hands...

We should do both.  Do good deeds -- work with those who need to be
helped.  But that's what we've always done, and it won't suffice by
itself.

Pocketbook issues are noticed MUCH faster than good deeds.

As for the whole morality of a boycott thing:  I've seen good
arguments on both sides.  But I can't overlook history.  In Louisiana,
David Duke was voted down in large part because the rest of the
country threatened to turn the state into the backwater it was acting
like.

Like it or not, boycotts often work.  And they work faster than other
measures.  Which means the pain is over quickly, instead of dragging
on for years.

--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: New column adds a gay perspective
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:22:50 GMT

In article <98434@netnews.upenn.edu> sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.) writes:
>Where will this trend pop up next?  _The Miami Herald_?  _The Wichita Eagle_?

The Ithaca Journal has been running Deb Price's column for
several months.  As many of you probably know, Ithaca is a
very progressive small city set in the middle of a very
conservative agricultural area.  There was some outcry at
first, and several local "Christians" cancelled their
subscriptions, but there's been very little local comment
since.

While I tend not to agree with Price about a lot (she tends
to be pretty mainstream as lesbians go), I enjoy the
column.  She tends to intersperse politics and culture, and
even did a column on the gay rodeo.
--
           Hate is not a family value.  Boycott Colorado

       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: zennaro@iesd.auc.dk (Christina Zennaro)
Subject: Re: Queers in military in other countries???
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:34:19

There are open gays and lesbians inn all the Scandinavian countries
(Denmark, Sweden and Norway). In Denmark they lifted the ban several
years ago. Previously you would not be drafted if you had 2 othe men
sign a paper that stated that they had had sex with you. A friend of
mine was going to be drafted a couple of years ago. He got off against
the rules by acting very feminine. In fact he claimed that he would
not be able to shower together with other men. In the end they asked
him if he would be very sorry if he did not get drafted.

Christina Zennaro


--
 ________     
 \      /   Christina Zennaro               |zennaro@iesd.auc.dk
  \    /    Dept of Math and Comp Science   |
   \  /     University of Aalborg           |Frederik Bajersvej 7
    \/      Denmark                         |DK-9220 Aalborg S0

"Call me straight and i'll sue."


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@vccsouth14.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Larry Kramer Interview in Advocate
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:21:55 GMT

jmckee@world.std.com (Jim McKee) writes:

>Just letting folks know that part 1 (of 2) of a great interview
>with Larry Kramer appears in the current issue of The Advocate.
>Larry, who could never be accused of being tactful, takes on
>almost everyone in this one. Worth the read.

Most definitely! But I can still understand the sentiment of Tom Stoddard who
said that ``Our movement needs more than just anger. Larry has never gotten 
beyond that point.'' and from what is quoted in The Advocate one would really
have to agree. He says some possibly valid things, but in SUCH a disagreeable
way that it just rubs people the wrong way and they no longer listen to him.

It's great to make suggestions and helpful hints but if you do it in such a
way that no-one will ever listen to you, what's the point?

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. `D.C. in 93!''
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
"I think every straight guy should have another man's tongue in his mouth 
atleast once." -Madonna, quoted in NEWSWEEK, quoting from The ADVOCATE.
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Food for thought, was : Bear Crap
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:32:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Nov23.193223.8017
Organization: insert anything here

richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>Dave Kerlick writes:

>>>GDM:
>>>I realize we're probably not going to do away with the prejudice
>>>against "overweight" any time soon; but there is no reason

>>To put it in another light, how would tall people fell if they were
>>referred to in the media and by others as "overheight?"

>Are you suggesting that tall people be felled like trees?  ;^)
>Your analogy does not wash, m'dear.  The common perception, right or
>wrong, is that people can control their weight through exercise and
>diet.  With vertical stature, one gets what one's genes dictate.  No
>amount of "Richard Simmons' Deal-A-Meal" would shorten (or lengthen)
>people.  Only a bandsaw could do that.
o
	Hogwash.  Don't cut the tall people, stretch out
the short people!  Just get a rack, some of your nearest
objectifiable friends and have a GRAND time!

	IF you choose your tallest objectifiable friends to
"help" then everyone gets to join in on the fun...

BBC
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: ok, let me try this again
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:09:46 GMT


|> spencer@shine.Princeton.EDU (S. Spencer Sun) writes:
|> 
|> >Yes, I am trying to change things.  Yes, I am trying to exclude certain
|> >types of conversation from soc.motss.
|> 
|> >... what started this off was a message from John Dorrance. [...] 
|> >>What's the stupidest/lamest/strangest song lyric you know of?
|> >>('I feel drunk', 'let's look for the purple banana 'til they put
|> >>us in the truck')
|> 
|> >IMHO, soc.motss should be for gay-related conversations.  I interpret
|> >that to mean conversations which, in substance, are gay-related.  This
|> >article by Mr. Dorrance does not strike me as falling into this
|> >category.  

A discussion of how Keanu Reeves being tied up and
assaulted by vampire maidens (or whatever) appeals
to you *is* gay-related, but gay people talking about
song lyrics is *not* gay-related.

I see - whatever interests *you* is appropriate.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Newsgroups: soc.motss