HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: msmiller@Rational.COM (Mark Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:12:59 GMT
Organization: Rational

In article <1992Aug27.124220.21758@brtph560.bnr.ca>, markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
|> In article <5600@igor.Rational.COM> msmiller@Rational.COM (Mark Miller) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> IMHO, we won't EVER see another Michael, Larry, or Magic (just like we
|> >|> haven't seen another Wilt, Kareem, Oscar R., Jerry W., etc...).
|> >
|> >Nope.
|> >
|> >But Bird/Magic and Jordan are two very different breeds of cat. For
|> >all the great skills Jordan has, he does not have the playmaking
|> >ability of Bird or Magic. Neither does Sir Charles, or Malone, or
|> >a whole pile of other great players.
|> 
|> Different breeds of cats they are, but your sentence doesn't make much sense.

I had intended to drop this, but if you reallllly wanna flame me, so be it ...

|> Individual skills are just as important as team skills.  If Bird couldn't 
|> drain the 3ptr and Magic couldn't get into the lane during a fastbreak,
|> their team skills wouldn't do *dick*.  It just so happens that Jordan has 
|> *much* better individual skills and Magic/Bird have *somewhat* better 
|> team skills.

"Somewhat better?" That's like saying Dan Quayle is "somewhat stoopid."

Fact is the Lakers and Celtics won many a game where Bird or Magic
scored under 10 points. They didn't have to rely on their scoring, 
although they could score pretty freakin' well. I seem to recall some
amazing Bird shootouts - 50+ points. In his prime, they weren't all
that rare either. So, how is Jordan's 50+ point game "much better" than
Bird's or Magic's? Do tell. Points is points.

|> Got another quote for you guys.  I was watching my Bulls '92 Championship
|> video last night and heard this...
|> 
|> 'Michael Jordan, you are the standard by which basketball 
|>  excellence is measured.' 
|>              -- David Stern (and NO it's not the D.Stern that goes to UIUC!)

Yeah, go quote a marketting dweeb. Brilliant. What do you EXPECT him to
say? "Mike's OK, but I prefer people who pass the ball." Yeah, right.

Look, Bird is gone, Magic's status over the long haul is questionable
at best. So you have a few more good years to idolize Jordan before
age starts taking its toll. Enjoy it.

	-MSM

________________________________________________________________________
Mark S. Miller                                     msmiller@Rational.COM
"Life is a 4-letter word."                        msmiller@world.std.com
[ insert tedious disclaimer drivel here ]                           IV-Q
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: hariharn@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ramesh Hariharan)
Subject: Re: Shaquille O'Neal interview
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: Shaquille O'Neal
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:31:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.053957.28254@leland.Stanford.EDU> terry@garfield.Stanford.EDU (Terry Wong) writes:
>
>About the Olympics, he said that he was very disappointed that he was not
>selected for the Dream Team.  He said he was disappointed for himself, for
>his family, and LSU.   He said that he definitely wants to be on the team
>in 96, or the year 2000 if he does not make the 96 team.
>
>					terry@garfield.Stanford.EDU

Just a qn. concerning the Olympic selection process.. How come Shaq not
get the nod over the over-rated Laettner ? Did the people incharge (USA
BASKETBALL) offer an explanation ? 


Just curious !!

Harry@Princeton.
From: edrury@3cpu.rain.com (Ed Drury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Predictions
Date: 29 Aug 92 22:16:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: 3cpu.4230
Reply-To: edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury)
Organization: Garden Lane Software

In article <1992Aug28.125958.1122@NeoSoft.com> claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
>In article <4217@3cpu.rain.com> edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury) writes:
>>Duckworth has reportedly been working with a very intense weight program
>>at Gold's gym and is supposedly now "addicted" to training. Will that
>>have a positive effect on him? Will Cliff Robinson stop taking wild
>Surely.  OK, so maybe I'm a bit credulous on
>the game value of conditioning programs--I
>believe in them in a BIG way--but I predict
>a big Duck turnaround, if this be true.  It
>could mean a Kevin Willis-magnitude comeback,
>All-Star caliber play, a Blazer championship,
>all that.

 Your really an optimist. I don't know what to make of this story about
Duck coming out of Gold's Gym. But, I'll repeat what I heard from the
person who is supposed to be handling his training. It is interesting,
at least I think, and I don't know how it will translate to game play.

 First thing which I found interesting was that he said Duck was not
eating enough. They changed his diet and increased his caloric intake.
The rationale, according to them , is that in Duck's efforts to loose
weight he was starving himself. He lost some weight, but the weight
he was loosing was muscle and the fat was still there. They put together
a high carbo diet of foods that he actually likes and get on his case
to eat often, no skipping lunch for example.

 They put him on a rigorous leg program. It is reported that he can now
jump higher off one leg than he could previously using two (standing
vertical). They limited him on the length of his weight workout. He
does 45 minutes of weights (a mixture of free weights - mostly squats,
and machines) and follows with stairmaster (which was his preference
over life cycle or treadmill). His program is supposedly built through
increasing reps and decreasing time between sets rather than increasing
weight (from what I understand of weight training this is a low risk
method and advised for maximum flexibility vs strength). 

 The other story is that Duck put in a weight room in his home. But
the interesting thing about that is the fellow from Gold's said that
they were absolutely firm that working out on his own was not good
training. They feel he needs constant supervision to maximize his
training. In other words, he's a project and needs to have fitness
experts constantly advising him because of his special problems with
weight and confidence - appear to be inversely proportional (my
observation). I do hope for the best in Kevin's case because he is
truely a likable guy. There is a lot to this guy, a lot more than
just a basketball player or another soul battling a weight problem.
He's an easy target, but he's a real person. Very real and very
easy to hurt.

-- 
   __
 /--   __/
(___, (_/rury@3cpu.rain.com
From: halpin@sw.stratus.com (Jim Halpin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:18:11 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep1.164040.1448@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, kbowers@esrc1.uucp (Ken Bowers) writes:
> 
> Anyone else think that steal says a lot more about Isiah at that time
> than Bird?  There are lots of NBA players who look great on defense
> when opponents make really dumb passes.

	Yup and the same for Laimbeer too. Thomas tossed in a lazy pass and
Laimbeer didn`t come to the ball as the pass was being made, allowing Bird to
step in front of him to make the steal. 
> 
> To me, what made that a classic Bird play was not the steal, which 
> virtually anyone could have made--it was the super-efficient,
> on-the-money pass to DJ. 

	And DJ basket was hardly a gimme either...

-- 
!	Jim  Halpin
!	halpin@turkey.sw.stratus.com
!	Marlboro, MA
!
From: wgr@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:08:56 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

In article <1992Aug26.213743.16703@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>and 3rd in 4 categories.  And, Bird is the best in Shooting and Rebounding
>(as well as hustle), while Jordan is the best at scoring and defense
>(as well as indiv. playmaking, which leads to scoring).  Bird is the better
>at teamplaymaking & passing.  This is why if someone were to ask who was the
>better individual player, I would say Bird.  Not only was he damn good on his
>own right, he made others so much better.  Jordan was very good in his own
>right, and made others better, but not to the degree Bird did.

One thing people always seem to overlook is that Bird's teammates also made
*him* better.  Dennis Johnson was a great player before he ever teamed up
with Bird.  For several years Kevin McHale was easily the best low post
player, and one of the top five players overall, in the league.  He and Bird
made *each other* more effective.  Larry could sit out there 22 feet from the
hoop with Kevin posted up and Bird's man would be in a quandry over whether
to double down.  If he (or someone else) didn't, McHale would surely score
(hell, he'd even score against the double team); if he did double down, Larry
would drain the set shot.

On the other hand, Horace Grant is a good player, but I don't see how he
makes Jordan much better.  I guess he's good at going to the hoop without the
ball when Jordan drives and the opposing power forward comes over to help out.
Michael's unlikely forays to the hoop might get embarrassing if he couldn't
bail out with a pass to Horace for the slam, but Grant doesn't have much of
a post game.  Jordan's penetration makes Horace a *much* more effective
offensive player.  Pippen helps out by making sure the other team can't just
concentrate on Michael, but compare Jordan's teammates with Bird's teammates
of the '80s and I think it's clear that Boston had a lot more talent.

It's the same with the Lakers, where Magic had Kareem and Worthy to work
with.  Sure, Bird and Magic made their teammates better, but their teammates
were also capable of carrying a bigger share of the load than Jordan's have
been.

So I'm not arguing that Jordan is a better than Bird was, but I think it's
hard to determine who was superior at making his teammates better.  In my
opinion, Bird's teammates would have been better than Jordan's even if they
hadn't played with Bird.
From: edrury@3cpu.rain.com (Ed Drury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Lloyd Danielsd (was Re: Spurs Update)
Keywords: Spurs
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:58:01 GMT
Reply-To: edrury@.UUCP (Ed Drury)
Organization: Garden Lane Software

In article <1992Aug28.144320.10272@dsd.es.com> jjehlers@flapjack.dsd.es.com (Jennifer Ehlers) writes:
>
>One closing remark, I don't know how anyone can say the Jazz choked last
>year.  I feel they have gotten that behind them.

 I hope you never hear that from a Portland fan. Portland was lucky in the
extreme to get by Utah in the conference finals last year. I always try to
get a ticket when Utah comes to town because it's a type of gold standard
or acid test. Only problem is that Utah has been a different team on the
road that they are at home. And there is the incredible luck I was mentioning
in the second sentence. As a Trailblazer fan I view Phoenix and Utah in
this way. Both those teams have a better chance of beating Portland in 
Portland than Portland has of winning in their building. For lack of a
better term, that is how I define a respected rival. 

 It will be very interesting this year for Utah. If they are the team they
are at home on the road...maybe fans outside the Western Conference will
have some of that respect. Meantime, we know better ;-).
>
>-- 
>  Jennifer Ehlers                   
>  jjehlers@dsd.es.com  		    
>  Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp. 
>  Salt Lake City, Utah               


-- 
   __
 /--   __/
(___, (_/rury@3cpu.rain.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: gregt@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Greg Tollefson)
Subject: Re: Trevor Wilson Update
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro, OR
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 18:58:33 GMT

In article <matthew.714933239@base.cs.ucla.edu> matthew@base.cs.ucla.edu (Matthew Merzbacher) writes:
>Scott "Dave, John, Davidson, Fred, not-TCB" Davis and I were down at Venice
>Beach a couple of weeks ago, and Trevor Wilson was playing in the pickup
>game.  For those of you who aren't familiar with them, Venice is the scene
>at the outset of "White Men Can't Jump", and Trevor is an ex-UCLA
>Mega-super-star (well, maybe not quite, but in his own mind at least).
>
>Trevor looked pretty good against the strong pick-up game.  He even ripped
>a rebound, did his patented end-to-end drive, and put the ball in.  Didn't
>even charge.
>
>He still can't shoot from further than about 6 feet.
>--
>
>Matthew Merzbacher	ARPA:	matthew@CS.UCLA.EDU
>Moo - Moo Moo  		UUCP:	...!{uunet|rutgers|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!matthew
>               		This time, *with* the oys

My favorite memory of Trevor was in a game against Stanford
a few years back.  UCLA had a nice lead going into the second half.
Stanford started a little run.  Trevor gets called for a charge then
a T for arguing with the ref.  I can clearly remember the knuckle-
dragging-chin-extended-who-me-look on Trevor's face when the ref 
blew the whistle.  Stanford ended up rallying to win and send the Bruins
into their patented slide.  

Greg T.




-- 
********************************************************

But Otto, what about our relationship????
From: u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: 30 Aug 92 01:27:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: jhunix.1992Aug30.012759.6142
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <CPM.92Aug28131346@clyde.clearpoint.com> cpm@clyde.clearpoint.com writes:
>>1992 and Charles won 1991, I don't have stats for All Star games so I'm
>>actually asking. You guys follow MJ, know his stats and all. I'm just
>>looking for the answer. Remember, there is a seeker born every minute. :-)
>
>
>I don't remember the exact year, but I know it was when the allstar game
>was in Chicago. Must have been 88 or 89. 

It was 1988.  Karl Malone won in '90.  Jordan scored 40 points, had like
4 assists, 4 blocks, 4 steals and 8 rebounds, the point total being 2 points
short of the record I think.  Spectacular game too...only the one in '87
was better out of all the ones I've seen.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: th12@ellis.uchicago.edu (Paul T.H. Ho)
Subject: Re: Bird, Jordan, Magic...
Reply-To: th12@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:52:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.140055.24879@das.harvard.edu> vreddy@das.harvard.edu (Venkatesh Reddy) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.071535.29475@cco.caltech.edu>, chiu@sampson.ccsf.caltech.edu (John Chiu) writes:
>|> In article <5598@igor.Rational.COM> msmiller@Rational.COM (Mark Miller) writes:
>|> >
>|> >It's an insult to a great player that people keep this "Bird would have
>|> >been a nobody if he wasn't white" crap going on.
>|> >
>|> >I look at it this way: if you had to show a 5 second clip to capture the
>|> >essence of Bird, Magic, and Jordan the Jordan clip would be a slam,
>|> >the Bird and Magic clips would be amazing no-look passes to teammates.
>|> >And I think THAT says it all.
>|> >
>|> >	-MSM
>|> >
>|> >________________________________________________________________________
>|> >Mark S. Miller                                     msmiller@Rational.COM
>|> >"Life is a 4-letter word."                        msmiller@world.std.com
>|> >[ insert tedious disclaimer drivel here ]                           IV-Q
>|> 
>|> Don't forget "the shot" of Micheal Jordan during the last 3.3s of
>|> the Bulls-Cleveland game!
>|> 
>|> 
>|> John Chiu
>|>   
>
>But if you have to pick ONE clip of Michael at his best, I would say THAT 
>wouldn't be it... I personally would pick the same clip all the Gatorade
>commercials picked, from the 91 Championships... with the switch-of-the-hands
>lay-up.
>
>-- Venk --


How does that compare to Bird's incredible steal from Laimbeer in the dying
seconds of the final game of the Celtics-Pistons series?	:)



-- 
Paul
---------------
Internet: th12@midway.uchicago.edu
From: IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Thomas Hyer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Compiling List of Jordan Awards
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:07:53 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <1992Sep01.125914.7775@brtph560.bnr.ca>, markham@brtph600.bnr.ca
(Andrew Markham P205) woofs:
>
> [much cheerleading deleted]
>
> [of Jordan:]
>
>o Only 2nd player to win NBA Championship and lead league in scoring
>  the same season (Kareem 1971) -- he has done it twice

Doesn't this seem odd?  That means that, prior to 1991, only
one NBA champion in some godawful number of years (I don't
know how far back Andrew looked) had a scoring leader on
the team.  That's less than you'd expect if the champion
were chosen randomly!

Clearly this is telling us something.  Probably scoring
leaders tend to have Mitch Richmond Syndrome, and their
teams lose when the going gets tough.

Tom Hyer
From: fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Predictions
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:53:44 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis

Hmmm.  I'm still not convinced that Phoenix is as good as 
everyone thinks they are.  They lose the effect of having
3 gunners in the lineup, which was why they were so effective
in the first place.  They are still weak in the middle, and
KJ still has to prove that he's big time.  Portland may be
old, but I watched Terry Porter eat him up defensively and
offensively throughout the playoffs.  

Similarly, I don't think Portland is all that old.  Old is 33-34
in the NBA.  I can remember when Portland was up and coming that
everybody used to say the same about the Fakers.  I don't 
think Portland will be significantly troubled by losing Ainge.  Yes
he could shoot, but getting his shot off with the bench was a
consistent problem.  So he helped win one game against Chicago.  
With Tim Hardaway, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson darting around
the court, and young guys like Payton in the West, it will be
more important for Portland to have a backup PG that can run the
offense with a second unit. I think Strickland will be more useful
than some people think.  Having TP play some minutes at 2-guard with 
the bench will make Portland more effective.  Cliff Robinson
is getting better each year and I wouldn't be surprised if 
Kersey ends up coming off the bench by the end of the year.

Phoenix is going to have to fight to win the Pacific, and both
Phoenix and Utah will have to prove they can beat Portland in the 
playoffs.  

-MeatHead
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: med50005@nusunix2.nus.sg (TAN CHOON KIAT)
Subject: Suns
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 06:20:22 GMT

All I know is that Barkley is now with the Suns (we don't get much NBA
info here in Singapore).  Being a moderate fan of the Suns (esp. the
bundle of energy known as Dan Majerle), what I really want to know is
their line-up for the 92-93 season.

Thanks in advance!

Nigel Tan
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 23:01:44 GMT
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug31.145910.5582@inmet.camb.inmet.com> west@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Brian West) writes:
>> On defense, Bird was very good at the little things, defensive
>>rebounding, blocking out, etc.., as well as being very good at "help", or
>>team defense.  He was on 3 NBA defensive teams.  
>
>As far as the big things on defensive like blocking/changing shots,
>denying the pass, hounding the dribble, and denying the drive, Bird
>just didn't cut it.  He had slow feet and couldn't jump.  He would
>usually "guard" the oponent's 3 or 4, whomever had the weakest O.
>This would allow him to play off his man, closer to the lane for help
>D on drives and closer to the hoop for D rebounds.  He certainly
>played hard on D but that didn't make him a good defender.

Funny, for someone who didn't do the big things like "blocking/changing 
shots, denying the pass,..." he seemed to do alright at it.  For someone
who couldn't jump, he managed to average a very decent number of blocked 
shots.  And, denying the pass, especially at playing the passing lanes,
Bird was very good at.    
>
>Maybe if "Bird is great/good defender" is said often here, 
>then it will be so.

No, Bird was never a great defender.  He was someone who realized his 
limitations and was a very intelligent defender.  He did the little things
as well as anyone.  He was one of the best defensive rebounders in the league.
He averaged about 1.8 steals a game  for his career.  He was able to get 
a decent number of blocked shots.  And, he was able to somehow make it onto
3 AllNBA defensive teams.  So, No.. he will never be considered a great
defender.  ANd, in many ways, he wasn't even a good defender. However, he
did a lot of things on the defensive end that made him very valuable.  
Look at the play that, probably more than any, lives in peoples mind about
Bird...  Stealing the inbound pass against Detroit.  Ironic that it was a
great defensive play will be remembered.  
>
>Brian West
>-- 
>west@inmet.inmet.com (or west%inmet@uunet.uu.net)
>============================================================================
>STANDARD DISCLAIMER: No one is responsible. 
>My Astral-Projection did this, if you get my drift.


-- 
David T. Meeks                    ||" We are jigsaw pieces, aligned on the 
VMark Software, Inc.              ||  perimeter edge, 
uvmark!davem@merk.com             ||  interlocked through a missing piece"
davem%uvmark@merk.com             ||" ...This world is totally Fugazi"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor)
Subject: Re: Compiling List of Jordan Awards
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:01:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep02.130520.46085@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>So, the question is, which of the various "awards" in college basketball are
>considered the Heismann equivalent??  
I don't know, but it shouldn't be an award given by a commerical
publication. How did TSN come up with the winner? with the editor throwing
darts?

At least the other organizations derive the winners from polls.

>I have never heard Sampson mentioned 
>as a 3 time POY winner, in any reference, though it seems he won the award 
>3 times in 4 different polling organizations.  
That's NOT the justification of Sampson being a 1-time POY winner and
Jordan being a 2-time winner, just because you never heard of it.
And Jordan as a two-time POY is only deceptive media hype. It's a total
whitewash of Sampson's dominance in his senior season.

If we have to chose ONE POY in 1983, who would be the logical choice?
Jordan who won the TSN? or Sampson who won the AP/UPI/USBWA/NABC/Wooden/
Naismith?

>I hear about the Sporting News
>awards (for baseball and basketball mainly) pretty often.
I hear about the Wooden Award pretty often too.

>Exactly. In football, the Heisman is THE award everyone wants.  What is 
>considered THE award in College Basketball???
I think the Wooden is gaining ground as far as media hype is concerned.
At least CBS spends a half-time to announce the Wooden award winner during
the NCAA tournament. We can't say that about the TSN POY award. 

-- 
                                          Edward Lor
                                          lor@cbnewsk.att.com
                                          
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro