From: cuddihy@cshl.org (Elisabeth Cuddihy)
Subject: Re: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:48:39 GMT


In article <IJD.92Sep10105604@idickins.hpl.hp.com> ijd@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Ian J Dickinson) writes:
(and quite timely at that; I'm just about to leave for a wedding 500 miles
away from here -- and a pagan one at that!  That makes two in three weeks;
I'll have to post the details later :-)
>>>>>> On Sept, 9, Elisabeth Cuddihy wrote:
>
>> If my memory serves me correctly, the sword belongs to Nuada, the spear
>> to Lugh, the Cauldron is the Dagda's and the Lia Fail is not listed as
>> belonging to anyone.  
>[...]In some traditional tales - eg the one about the Dagda, Angus Og 
>and the Pooka in _Celtic Wonder Tales_,
>(collected by Ella Bright?) the Dagda posessed a magic harp, which could
>send any enemy to sleep with one chord.

Somewhere I read of a harp that changed the seasons (winter to spring, etc)
when played.  Is this the same as the Dagda's?  

>There are several claimed instantations of the Lia Fail. The most
>convincing claim, apparently, is the upright standing stone at Tara. It
>remained silent when I stood my (6 month old) son on it, in May this year.
>Bummer. I'll have to keep my day job.

Maybe your next child? :-)

>> [...stuff refering to the four treasures deleted...]
>> and were brought to Ireland from four unearthly cities when the Tuatha
>> came to settle the isle.  As for the names of the cities and some other
>> related info on these treasures, you'll have to wait 'til I get home
>> because my memory is not that of a bard's.
>I have never equated the multiple names of the Celtic otherworld with
>cities, more realms in general. I assume you are referring to Tir n'an Og,
>Tir na Mor, etc?  Does anyone have a complete list of these names?

I was thinking of four specific cities from which the sword, spear, cauldron
and stone are said to originate from: 

"...the Tuatha De Danann, gods of the Gaels, were the next to arrive.  What
is probably the earliest account tells us that they came from the sky.  Later
versions, however, give them a habitation upon the earth -- some say in the
north, others in the "southern isles of the world".  They had dwelt in four
mythical cities called Findias, Gorias, Murias, and Falias, where they
learned poetry and magic [...] and whence they had brought to Ireland their
four cheif treasures.  From Findias came Nuada's sword, from whose stroke no
one ever escaped or recovered; from Gorias, Lugh's terrible lance; from
Murias, the Dagda's cauldron; and from Falias, the Stone of Fa/l, better 
known as the 'Stone of Destiny'..." (Celtic Myth & Legend, Charles Squire, p71)

In T.W. Rolleston's book by the same name (pp105-106), he lists the Lia Fal
as coming from Falias and the Dagda's cauldon from murias, much like Squire,
but then he lists the sword as belonging to Lugh, rather than Nuada but repeats
that it originated in Gorias.  He does not list an owner for the spear but
spells the city of it's origin in an alternative manner: Finias.

Caitlin Matthews gives a neo-pagan reinterpretation (or at least that is
what I *think* it is :-) of the origin of these treasures as follows:

Direction Region     OtherWorldly City	Gift    Master       Evangelist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
North     Ulster     Falias             Stone    Morfessa       John
East      Leinster   Gorias             Spear    Esras          Luke
South     Munster    Finias		Sword    Uscias         Mark
West      Connacht   Murias             Cauldron Semias         Matthew
(Elements of the Celtic Tradition, p9) 	

Of course, this interpretation fits nicely with at least one of the many 
permutations of the wiccan and pagan correspondences of tools with the four 
winds, etc.  

If anyone has any more information on these mythical cities, etc, I'd 
be curious to know.

>> Questions: 
>> 1) Has anyone ever seen a name listed with the Lia Fail or does it
>> have no "owner"?   
>Again, some old tales speak of Brigid's stone, which rises out of the earth
>at appropriate times to perform assorted acts of healing (restoring sight
>to tge blind, etc).  I think I have heard Brigid's stone equated with the
>Lia Fail, but my subconscious could be making that up.  In any case, this 
>particular aspect of Brigid lore seems to be mostly in the Christian part, 
>rather than the Pagan part.

Well, even if your subconscious is having a little fun, I really like that
association -- after all, as a woman, I'd like to think that at least one
of the Irish treasures belonged to a woman and of the four, a king-making
stone is quite fine by me! :-)  (anyway, I've always like Brigid a good deal)
This goes nicely with the celtic concept of the king being married to 
the land.  I'll have to keep my eye out for any stories about the Lia Fal
and Brigid.

>Blessings,
>Ian.

Peace and Good Harvest,

Liz


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