HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:13:05 GMT



muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: In article <1992Sep10.052858.14427@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: >: 
: >test and it is very difficult. In Finland you have to pass a language
: >test in a spoken Finnish, the certificate can be obtained from the legalized
: >Finnish
: 
: Listen Jarmo. When Finland became independend, what did you do with your
: Swedes? Did you ask those long-time occupants of your land to learn Finnish,
: before they can become citizens. No, they became citizens automatically.
: ( you even where not satisfied with amount you have and got a hefty 
: extra at Allans :) ). Their language became second official language.
: And there are much less Swedes in Finland (at least now) than Russians
: in Estonia.

Poor Yuri,
You are happily unawere of the fact that the swedish population on the
costs of Finland has existed since centuries. Sweden swedes did not
get automatically citizenship in Finland, they had to apply it!!!!
Capito? When Finland became independent Swedish/Russian influence
 also was halted in
Finland and first then real development started for instance
for the Finnish speaking education at the universities.

The same way Estonians give automatically estonians citizenship for
thr russian speaking people who were citizens of Estonia 1920-40
and for their children. The immigrants of what ever natianal group
 who have come to Estonia in
a wawe the communist rule was introduced to Estonia HAVE TO APPLY
citizenship. The Finns in Estonia have to apply estonian citizenship
and it quite right. So it is in Finland for the russians, swedes alike.
Understood?

I recommend some travelling and studies and
to differ immigrants, ethnic minorities, refugees which each others.
By us depending on your status you get working licenses, permits
of staying, social security...etc. Quite normal in Europe.
If Estonia now tryinf to europenize herself the russians are angry!!!!
Astonished,
Jarmo Ryyti

: 


: Yury


Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov)
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Organization: GTECH Corporation, West Greenwich RI
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:24:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.165911.18515@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>>One can - and you may see how looking at Ms. Schwarz :-)
>
>Why are you being so nasty to me? I haven't insulted you.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This makes me feel really bad. Please do put me in your kill file,
>if I'm making such an unpleasant reaction in you.
>
>-patricia

My personal opinion: I see you (people with similar views) as  very good soil 
for communism revival.




-- 
Aleksey Y. Romanov

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed are entirely my own and do not
necessary reflect those of my employer or anyone else
From: verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian Culture through California sunshades
Keywords: all of the above
Date: 5 Sep 92 09:16:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep5.051603.15388
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep4.213431.5982@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
><1992Sep4.153328.9463@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> replies to me:

>>Dear Ms. Schwartz, I am impatiently waiting to read your revelations.
>>IMHO, Pasternak -> Russian rock line could be matched in the English
>>speaking world by T.S. Elliot -> Ice-T connection. Good luck in your research
>>and God bless you!

>Dear sir, we are just describing events, not making analyses or comparisons
>between the two. It is a fact that both became part of underground culture
>in their separate times, and for separate generations.

>>P.S. BTW, Boris Pasternak belongs to the MAINSTREAM Russian  culture.
>>It was outlawed but never went "underground". On this subject read
>>O. Mandelshtam ("mnogogrannaya zhizn' vnie zakona").

>Yes, thank you, we know this. We already have a few good stories of how
>"Doctor Zhivago" was smuggled back into Russia from the West. Pasternak begins
>our book because as Solzhenitsyn wrote, he was not a dissident but still
>paved the way for others, because of the underground circulation of
>his novel.

Just my dve kopeiki: the major difference between mainstream literature
and underground one is *language*. The language on which Doctor
Zhivago is written is exactly the same which used most of (now forgotten)
popular writers of 1900-10 years. From this point of view, this
is clearly mainstream, while, say, Kharitonov's novel is 
underground. Rock is underground the same: if they don't use
profane language (which is rare), they still use street language
etc. From point of view of circulation, well, in 1820-ies Russia
the whole Pushkin circulated handwritten (as Gumiliov in Soviet
epoch). This don't make Pushkin underground. 

Best wishes, Patricia, with your book, though it, most
surely, will be yet one more Western book about Russian
underground (as one I've seen about jazz where instead
of jazz was discussed popular music written by official 
composers). Like if I wrote about Western underground
and instead of writing about Aleister Crowley and
Monte Cazzazza wrote about U2 and The Silence of the Lambs.
Somehow, Western writers miss most interesting things
(like one girl I knew, who wrote PhD on Russian literature
and did not know who is Saltykov-Shchedrin).

Misha.
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:11:59 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:58:39 GMT
> From: mns6569@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU
>
> Let me put it this way. You live in this country for a reason. Be it
> economic or political one or some other. You feel way-way superior to
> a regular beer-guzzling, sitcom watching middle class parent of 2.4 children.
> You have the only correct way of looking at the world. You're OK, the
> Americans are mesed up, life's good and there's also a weekly discussion
> on how russia falling apart to be had on Saturday night over Lipton tea
> and cookies. Boy, the best of both worlds, ain't it. Russian mentality on
> $40000 a year. We are the smartest!

Great!!! Thank you so much, you have really relieved my suffering soul...

> You might learn something, or at
> least be less compelled to flema off, sparing us poor bastards from your
> clueless remarks.
> Have a good day. If you see any clues on sale during next few weeks, please
> buy some. (sorry, sovok in me just have to dump and insult or two out :-(
>

Now, that's good! You are doing not at all bad today.


Dimulya
Sexist abuser
From: zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:10:22 GMT
Organization: Conspiracy International
Originator: verbits1@husc9.harvard.edu

In article <1992Sep7.040836.2097@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>Is anyone out there interested in a discussion of Master and Margaret?
>

I have some news for you. M&M (just like any other _good_ piece of literature)
is much better off when it's not discussed, but simply read and enjoyed.

AAAAaaaaAAAAAaaAAAzzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzz
From: alex@took.enet.dec.com ("Alex Allister Shvartsman, EMF,              LKG2-2/T2 15-Sep-1992 1459")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: A song
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:10:52 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

A couple of questions for the respectable s.c.s. community:

 1. Does anybody have the words of Wysocki's song "Krivaja da nelegkaja"
    (here's a word whose pronunciation does not resemble its orthography :-)
    -- "Crooked and heavy" [or "uneasy" or "difficult" or ...]?

 2. This is a question primarily for the esteemed (x)COBOK masses:
    What is Wysocki trying to tell you in the song, if anything?
    Or do you view it as a silly drunk's hallucination?

The non-COBOK background masses are also welcome to answer question #2,
but please identify yourself as such.

Regards,
Alex
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:36:32 GMT

>  Again the same thing. You put the word "drunken" among "poor
>ignorant unstable" as having bad meaning. I would never do that.
>So I guess that "Moskva Petushki" will be impossible to read
>for you if you sometime want to try it.  
>-V.

This is hilarious! You are so PC! I put "drunken" in the exact context
in which American mass culture see it.

Drunkeness in itself has no good or bad meaning. My parents were both
violent alcoholics. It gives a bad meaning to "drunkeness" for a six year
old child to see her mother drunk and screaming and calling her a whore
with her wig falling off of her head and her false teeth on the table.

But the same child can grow up and love to share a bottle of champagne
with her husband and maybe a few shots of vodka too, without the
world ending or even perhaps it improves! And maybe she can also
drink a few Russian guys under the table (very few actually but nonzero ;) )
And maybe she can even show them the proper way to drink tequila, which
is not in a Margarita but straight from the bottle and hopefully one
with a worm in the bottom.

And then there were the gallons of cheap wine on the beach, with a
bonfire, and maybe a few hallucinations on top of it, a beach in
Northen California where it is cold and empty except for the waves
and the friends and the bottle. Sand on the lips, salt water in the mouth,
tumbling into a jet black bright neon cube of light that stops and
asks if you found more firewood but no it was burnt already because
you were already there and couldn't stop laughing, no one could stop
laughing after that until someone had to bring up Death

and the fact that the jug was empty

and someone had to climb back up the sandy cliff in the moonless night
to stand outside the liquor store, dirty and wet with no credentials but
youth and insulting ones those were

but still some sad old man who remembered when could be persuaded to
go into the store and come out with one gallon of Red Mountain
Burgundy not the cheapest stuuff but the second cheapest stuff
$2.00 for a gallon not $1.50
we have our standards, you know

the saddest part is when reality drains you before you have drained the
bottle and it's time to sneak back home and hope

hope you get out of there alive

However in the official version of the Western stereotype of the
Russian man, he is a drunk in maybe not the worst context but still
not the best one. 

-patricia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:26:19 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <SCS-L%92090916353269@INDYCMS.BITNET> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>shouldn't keep trying, however.)  Great literature is rich enough to provide
>for all human experience, and that is why, for example, those interested in the
>possibility of Gogol's homosexuality have found another prism through which to
>read his works; 

Exactly - they are interested "in the possibilty of Gogol homosexuality",
- not in his works. BTW, they read very the same as Hlestakov's Stepan,
only the look for homo-... symbols instead of letters. But where is Gogol?

They found another mirror through which to love dear themselves.

>or those, like Ms. Schwarz, who is  conjoining tales of child
>abuse and abuse at the hands of the Nazis, have identified common human threads
>where others have failed to notice them.

Not failed - simply tried to read, not to find mirror.

"Kto, moi zerkal'ce, milee,
vseh prekrasnei, vseh sil'nee"

Maybe, this is real explanation, why there so much "damochek s diplomami 
i aspiraciyami" (spasibo, Sasha) around art. Eternal women's wish
to look at mirror. :-)

>  So, with respect to your example, I myself can't identify with Venichka be-
>cause I've never been drunk, not to mention desperate to get booze before the
>stores open, but there are many people out there who *can identify*, and they
>are not all in the xSU!  For me, personally, therefore, Erofeev is not a favo-
>rite, but I'm willing to agree with those who think he's a great writer because
>he captures this feeling so completely.

 I don't drink at all and I don't identify myself with writers (or heroes,
if that matter) from early childhood (chego i vam zhelayu), but I know that
Venichka is great for completely different reasons. You missed him. Pity.
Though maybe to feel why "Sleza komsomolki" is great, you should grow up
with Zoya Kosmodemyanskay stories in kindergarten.


>  It's insulting and narrow-minded to claim that only insiders can take part in
>the riches which world cultures offer us.  Try a little tolerance instead, - an
>approach which is, unfortunately, in very short supply on this list.

But culture, especially culture of mature nation, *is* for insiders. Extreme 
example - you should became insider of half a dozen cultures to be able to
read Joyce Ulysses. To be able to read Finnegan's wake you should became
insider of one man - Joyce himself. Unless you agree to trade new culture for
a misty mirror.

>Linda Scatton
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: 12 Sep 92 23:01:57 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

> Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:43:49 GMT
> From: mns6569@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU
>
> No matter what you think about Ptricia's
> literary pursuits, naivity or lifestyle, please do not accuse her personally
> of being inccapable to understand russian soleor some such bull.

To understand Russian sailor, you mean? Not an easy task for any women, indeed.

> You might want to discuss her views with her or on the net, but stop the
> stupid potshots.

Stop hot pots'?? That's exactly what she's keep talking about!

> the last time I checked
> (admittedly before Hilary Clinton's "kids can sue their parents" ideas) this
> was a semi-free conutry

Hmmm... Something to do with uterus?

> And Ivan, once again I commend you on your calm behaviour among the flaming
> assholes.

Ooouphh... Such a graphic picture... Can't wait... Bye, I'm running.


Dimulya
Sexist abuser
From: yamrom@crd.ge.com (boris yamrom)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Appeal for bard Katya Yarovaya
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:45:36 GMT
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center


 The following is a translation of the appeal appeared in Novoe Russkoye Slovo
on Friday, September 11, 1992. The translation was made by Jane Taubman, 
Professor of Slavic Literature at Amherst College, from the original letter 
sent to her from Russia.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and Gentlemen!

We would like to bring to your attention the desperate situation of the
well-known Russian poet and bard Ekaterina (Katya) Yarovaya. During the 
"stagnation" period in Russia, Katya showed a great deal of courage and 
independence by performing songs full of irony, striking in their 
boldness and civic honesty: "On the Death of the Leaders," "Afganistan,"
"About the Central Committee," "The Tower of Babel," (about the "friendship"
of Soviet nationalities) and many others. But this is only one aspect of
her work. Katya is a subtle lyricist and a shrewd observer of everyday life.
She has written more than 300 songs. She performed with great success at a 
number of American universities in 1990.

Two years ago, Katya, then 33, was operated on for breast cancer. Now extensive
metastases have been discovered, and she is undergoing treatment (radiation
and chemotherapy) at Riverside Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. When her American
husband, a Russian emigre, learned about her illness, he left her. Now she and
her eleven-year-old daughter are living in Columbus, where Katya had come to
perform concerts. Her treatment is covered by medical insurance, but she has 
no money at all to support herself or her daughter. She is not able to work. 
They are living with friends and their condition is catastrophic.

We hope you could help Katya Yarovaya in any way possible. Her address:

Katya Yarovaya
2825 Neil Ave. apt. 703
Columbus, Ohio 43202 USA
tel. 614-263-8186

account no: 044000024
	      04893466022

The following Russian writers consented by telephone to add their signatures
to this appeal:

Bella Akhmadulina, poet
Yuri Arabov, writer
Tatiana Bek, poet
Andrei Bitov, writer
Zoya Boguslavskaya, writer
Andrey Voznesensky, poet
Galina Volchek, director of "Sovremennik" theater
Pavel Gusev, minister of information, city of Moscow, editor 
			"Moskovskii komsomolets" newspaper
Lev Guschin, editor "Ogonek" magazine
Mark Daitch, director, Radio Liberty Moscow bureau
Evgeny Evtushenko, poet
Fazil Iskander, writer
Yuri Lubashevsky, president Diagilev Center
Andrey Mal'gin, chief editor, "Stolitsa" magazine
Boris Messerer, artist
Alexandr Minkin, journalist
Junna Morits, poet
Nina Odinokova, chief editor, "Midday in Moscow" newspaper
Bulat Okudzhava, poet, writer
Evgenii Sidorov, Russian minister of culture and tourism
Leonid Trushkin, artistic director, Anton Chekhov Theater


-- 
Boris Yamrom
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Plody prosvescheniya (Was: Re: Master and Margaret and other
Date: 13 Sep 1992 21:12:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <9209120115.AA14968@feds66.Prime.COM> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <MUH%PHYSICS1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
>
>Prixadi zavtra, daragoi, bukva `BE' uchit' budim!

To-to ja ne mog ponjat', otkuda u leschinera takaja erudicia, a on okazyvaetsja
v nachl'noj shkole prepodaet.

Yury

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: gmfich@cs.washington.edu (Greg Fichtenholtz)
Subject: Re: Who Is Afraid Of Patricia Schwarz?
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 22:38:03 GMT


Gospoda! 
After reading soc.culture.soviet for a number of days I put all the 
pieces of a puzzle together and I have come to a conclusion that
PATRICIA SCHWARZ   and  HASAN  MUTLU  is THE SAME PERSON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean if you think about that for a while , I am sure you will say the same 
thing.
Now the big question remains : Who is who ?
Is Patricia Schwarrz Hasan Mutlu of is it the other way around ?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
In either case it is really scary...

-- 
=============================++===================================
Gregory Fichtenholtz         ||          |~~~ |~\ |  | | | |   /| 
gmfich@cs.washington.edu     ||          |    |_/ | /| | | |  /_| 
                             ||          |    |   |/ | |_|_| /  | .
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: petrov@tfs.com (George Petrov)
Subject: Re: What's Rakhov like?
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:11:04 GMT

In article <LEONID.92Sep8100910@thyme.uchicago.edu> leonid@thyme.uchicago.edu (Leonid Andreev) writes:
>In article <9209072001.AA02321@feds66.Prime.COM> dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner) writes:
>
>>   >From: Leonid Andreev <leonid@THYME.UCHICAGO.EDU>
>>
>>   >One of the places of
>>   >interest they will definitely show you is the medieval
>>   >castle in the town of Mukachevo, not so far from Rakhov
>>
>>   Yea, very nice place, not so close to Rakhov either, though.
>>
>>   D.
>
>What the hell do you mean by `not so close'? In a scale of such
>a huge empire, like USSR was, these two towns are as close to 
>each other as the two corners of your bedroom! :)
>
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Leonid S Andreev,    Center for Information and Language Studies,  |
>|  (312) 955 5012        University of Chicago, Chicago IL, 60637.   |
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

	Is it time to consider returning Mukachevo to Slovakia or
	Hungary?
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Hands off Shafarevich!
Date: 7 Sep 1992 00:52:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep6.211624.22061@math.ucla.edu> aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin) writes:
>
>It is also noticeable, that Shafarevich was not elected a member of
>the USSR Academy of Sciences after his scientific achievements (which are
>undisputable; Golod-Shafarevich theorem is just one example). However,
>as soon as he published the book in question and started to write for
>``chernosotennykh'' editions, he got the membership in the Academy.
>Wasn't the decision of the honored Soviet academicians also motivated,
>in some extent, by non-scientific reason, and if so, do you blame the 
>decision?

Well, there is at least one simple reason why this happened at same moment:
it start being possible to publish anti-semitic literature and to
elect dissident to Academy at the same moment. I think this is the main 
reason.

Yury
From: covdy@cronos.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:23:49 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA  USA


in article <1992Sep08.141151.24896@watson.ibm.com>,
bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.
com (Igor Belchinskiy) says:
>
[izdevatel'skie repliki v adres Shvarz opushcheny]

Igorek, zatrahal svojej sovkovoj agressivnost'ju!
Che tak zol-to na amerikanok, a?
Baba kakaja-to ne dala, chto li?


-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:30:19 GMT


>My personal opinion: I see you (people with similar views) as  very good soil 
>for communism revival.

>Aleksey Y. Romanov

I don't understand what you mean here.

Let me take a guess. Perhaps you are trying to say that because I have
concerns that seem like what used to be expressed by the American left
wing, that I am somehow mildly pro-Communist or like those disgusting
"liberal" intellectuals who went around telling Americans that Russia
wasn't so bad, those dissidents were just "malcontents."

I may even be more anti-communist than you are, because I was raised
by a man who worshiped Stalin from California. He ruled our family with
terror. He threatened his children with an axe regularly. He was a brutal
nasty man and from what I have read about Stalin, they should have been
twins. Too bad my father only had only small family to terrify and rape
and threaten with murder evey day. He would have really loved to do
this with an entire country, just like his great hero, Iosef Issarionovich.

Sometimes I think it might be better to die than to have to remember that.

To me, the goal of Communism is to destroy the individual. This is the
same goal in child abuse. 

Maybe you can't underatnd the parallel unles you've lived my life.
But don't ever put me in the same sentence with communism. I believe
in freedom and in respecting peoples' feelings. These beliefs help
keep me alive from one day to the next.

-patricia