From: gt6737b@prism.gatech.EDU (E.A. JAAFAR)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: MYA: Mahatir proposes National Service for Malaysians
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:15:13 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <shahrol.713634400@harper.Stanford.EDU>, shahrol@harper.Stanford.EDU (Shahrol) writes:
> gt6737b@prism.gatech.EDU (E.A. JAAFAR) writes:
> 
> >In article <qkRaPB1w164w@temasek.uucp>, harish@temasek.uucp (Harish Pillay) writes:
>  
> [ dr. m. proposing national service]
> 
> i think that you did not get involved enough in semi-military outfits
> to make judgements about their value.   the scouts, IMHO, although
> very useful, cannot be equated with military service.  army cadets,
> though they are more military to some degree, also cannot be construed
> as being in the military.  
>
  Maybe you're right, I didnt be in the organizations long enough to judge
  their values.  I can only say and I was referring to what I'd endured.
 
> there is more to being in an organization that marching around in
> boots and such.  your point was that you re an individual, therefore
> being uniform is an anathema to you.  yes, the military does not
> tolerate individuality to the extent of disrupting order.  order is
> important to such an organization.  (defined, i guess :-))  but there
> is so much more (he's repeating himself..) than just the exercises
> that you mentioned.  
>
  ...well of course...you are one of those people whom I acknowledge in
  my original posting...those who believe that the organization is good.
  I certainly have no problem with that.  It's not an eye sore to me
  at all.  If it makes you happy...then there shouldnt be a problem.
 
> no man is an island, therefore he must work together with his peers,
> and try to achieve common objectives together.  only together, setting
> aside our differences, can we hope to get malaysia going.  my point is
> that military service can and do implement such a mind set.  
>
  In general, I do agree that we have to get together(...I wish we could
  only convince some racists and power crazy people...) to work things out
  but I dont believe that only in the military we can acomplish such
  thing.

  I believe(from what I've read thru s.c.a), racial harmony isn't the main
  objective.  The main objective however is to increase the number of
  M'sians to join the services.  And I also believe that a national 
  mandatory draft isnt the only way to go.  One of the reasons being that
  not all people have the desired qualities as the services demand out of 
  them.
  
> my 5 years in rmc (which is longer than the 2 year cadet courses, as
> well as the 6 month boot camp for enlisted men) has been an extremely
> positive experience.  the students from my year ranges from the son of
> the current malaysian king to the son of a chinese vegetable vendor to
> a boy from a family of 13.  such a wide expanse of social and economic
> background.  all the pt (physical training), classes and drilling
> (that's what we call marching)  conspire to make us work _together_,
> even if the goal was just to get through the next few hours. (pt from
> 1000 to 1300 during ramadhan is _not_ fun).  it made us put aside our
> differences, and concentrate on what we had in common, mainly the
> activities that we go through.  we helped each other, shouted
> encouragements to each other through the obstacle courses and
> generally got to know each other pretty well, or at least to get
> along and work with people that you don't really like.  (an important
> real-world lesson).  you make _real_ friends this way.
>
  Although I must say that I do see your point but here is another
  distinct differences in character or values or whatever you wanna
  call it.  The difference being that I believe that a good friend 
  will respect you and accept you for what you are.  When I was growing
  up, I was lucky to have friends that accept me the way I am and for
  the principles that I believe in.  We respect each other and we let
  nothing get in the way of our relationship.  The main thing we want 
  was to have fun.  We developed our sense of togetherness and to
  always play it tough even before we joined any organizations.  We learn
  ed that there's always a different path that we can pick.  I was also
  fortunate to develop my character based on what I believe thru my 
  high school education.  Before it was highly politicalized, MRSM was
  an institution that is different from our british-based education
  system.  Not that I'm saying one is better than the other but certainly
  you can see the differences and how much one system could influence 
  their products.  As a person, we expect to see differences in opinions
  and I'm sure as a human being, you would agree that we should respect
  the opinions of those who "different" than us  right.
  So again, real friends dont discriminate against each other and that
  real friend learn accept the diversity.  Military training isnt the
  only way to make real friends(noticed that I said it isnt the only way).
 
> of course, there were wimps who could not stand the amount of training
> that we had to go through, and dropped out, but note that all of them
> dropped out during the first year.  these are probably the people who
> whine about being told to do "stupid" things by arrogant and
> overbearing leaders. _no_one_ dropped out (voluntarily) after that.
> the camaraderie that you've established will pull you through
> anything. 
> 
> i am sorry if you've had a bad experience with uniformed service, what
> you should have done is turn to your friends for support, and don't
> bow to the pressure.  change things when you get to be the leader.
> maybe your troop leader (whatever you call a scout leader) was playing
> favorites.  you should strive to be so good in what you do that he
> could not afford to ignore you. here there is a measure of individual
> performance involved.  do not turn away from the challenge.
>
  I'm sure you've heard the saying,"mengundur bukan bermakna mengalah".
  Maybe from your experience you've seen some wimps chickened-out.  I
  know I certainly have.  I've seen people cried while 'drilling'.
  But what my friends and I did was based on the differences in
  principles as I've describe before.  What good is a man with no
  principles.  Drifting in the wind like old leaves falling from a tree.  
  A matured  person needs no one to tell what's good for them and
  their families and their friends.  It comes naturally.
 
>
 i think dr. m. is correct in implementing the national service.
> spending 6 months in close proximity will make the men understand each
> other better.  and the key to racial harmony _is_ understanding.
> professional soldiers (the ones that i have met, at least) are almost
> uniformly non-racist in their outlook in life.  they judge a man by
> what he can do, not what the color of his skin is.
> 
 So that's what you think.  I respect you for that.  I'm in no
  position to influence you or anything.  Unlike some people, I respect
  the differences in opinions and also accept the fact that e/body needs
  to be heard.
  
  So I take it as you're in support of a mandatory draft then or is it
  voluntary? You know where I stand on this one. 
             
  Hmmm...did I hinted anything abt racial injustice or imbalance in the
  M'sian military services?  Anyways, I agree...skin shouldnt be a factor.
 
> -shahrol
> lt. commander guest (hah!)  
  
  enjoy your summer!

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