From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: 9mm for hunting
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:39:19 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Jul30.101900.25608@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
>I have a Marlin camp 9 rifle, and was wondering how good it would be as
>a hunting rifle.  Would the 9mm be large enough to take a deer?  I loaded
>some 124gr soft point ammo to about 1200fps.  Would this bullet be able
>to stop a deer with 1 shot?


	_*NO*_

	You might be able to get 1 shot kills on small whitetail, but
	it's not a sporting proposition to hunt deer with such a marginal
	caliber. In addition, the load you mention is not even a very
	powerfull one. I understand that the camp carbine can't handle
	hot loads, but you should be able to do better than that.

>
>The 9mm pistol is supposed to have around 450 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
>The Marlin Camp 9 is supposed to have 22% more muzzle energy than that,
>so it would be around 550 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.  I know for wild boar,
>you need at least 800ft/lbs of muzzle energy, so it would be too small
>for boar.  


	Energy has _nothing_ to do with it! A 9mm is going to make a
	small hole at best, and if the bullet does expand, it may not
	penetate the required distance. Yes deer can be killed with
	9mm even out of a pistol, but don't do it unless you are
	_very_ good and very experienced, and unless you can place the
	bullets between ribs (ie keep the distance down to the point
	you can hit within .5" of where you aim) 

	The 'energy' guidlines published in hunting magazines are derived
	from experience in the field, but they only look at traditional
	calibers that have hunting loads developed for them. Ie you will
	_never_ see 100 grain 357 loads recommended for deer hunting (
	well, at least I hope not!) 9mm bullets are for the most part
	designed to work best on humans, and/or for punching paper, not
	for deer hunting. 

	BTW the 'energy' minimum for deer is supposed to be 1000 foot 
	pounds. . . 

>
>I know that the range will be limited to less than 100yds, but with a

	100 yards?!? Do you know what your remaining velocity is at 
	100 yards is? I've done the calculations for a 'typical'
	bullet below:
FOR: 9MM 125 GRAIN SOFT POINT
ALTITUDE:         0. TEMP (F): 70. % HUMID: 0.
BULLET WEIGHT:   125. HEIGHT ABOVE BORE:0.75 MUZZLE VEL:   1200.00
BALLISTIC COEFF:  0.140000
     RANGE           VEL         ENERGY      DROP
 0.0000000E+00   1200.000       367.6732      0.77
  25.00000       1125.679       323.5407      1.33      
  50.00000       1066.093       290.1950      0.00
  75.00000       1044.208       278.4025     -3.41
  100.0000       978.9949       244.7149     -9.07 
  125.0000       944.3960       227.7234    -17.60  

The difference in drop from 75 to 100 yards 'only' 6 inches, but if you
decide to take a long shot and are off in your range estimate by 25 yards
the difference between 100 and 125 yards is 8+ inches. A soft point
will not expand reliably even at 1200fps, but is really will not expand
at 1100fps, and it drops below that velocity somewhere inside 50 yards.

'Experts' say that a 357 with 158 grain JHP/JSP at 1400 fps is the
minimum 50-yard or less deer gun. It has a ballistic coefficient
up around .25, and 200fps velocity advantage to start out with, as
well as 25% more mass. Even that is marginal on medium size whitetail
and grossly underpowered for mule deer. 

>scope I can get pretty good groups.  Let me know what your opinions on
>the Camp 9 are.  If anyone out there has experience hunting with one,
>let me know how it worked for you.  Thanks, syspb@smartstar.com



	Please don't take the above as a flame, it's not intended as such.
	I've just seen too many peopl go out for deer with what ever gun
	they happen to have around, with horrible results. At least you've
	got your gun sighted in, that's better than at least some of the
	bambi-blasters around here have done. (no, I will not call them hunters
	the don't deserve the compliment)
-Chris L
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* Remember, only mere mortals need sleep!