From: mcvos@cs.vu.nl (Vos MC)
Subject: Re: Free will or Can Life After Death be Proven
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Distribution: sci.philosophy.meta
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:10:02 GMT

gpivar@maestro.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) writes:
: In article <TORSTEIN.92Sep29123959@itekiris.pvv.unit.no>, torstein@itekiris.pvv.unit.no (torstein hansen) writes:
: |> I'm not sure if this is the right group, but my question seems
: |> like philosophy to me. (and quite meta too ;-))
: |> 
: |> Before I ask my question I'd like to put forward a few statements:
: |> 
: |> 1) Human brain activity (human thinking) is a result of
: |>   (electro-)chemical reactions in the brain. As far as I know, that is
: |>    where science is today.
: |>
: 
: Be careful not to use the words "Human Thinking" in relation to the 
: definition you have provided above. Your definition or sumation
: is the mechanics of the process but not the process.
: 
: 
: |> 2) Every chemical reaction is predictable.
: |>    By this I don't mean that we at present are able to predict the
: |>    outcome of every chemical reaction, but that it is *theoretically* 
: |>    possible. Of course we have to know every detail of information
: |>    about every atom involved, but that isn't important. The point is
: |>    that the result of a reaction is determined given the starting 
: |>    position.
: |> 
: |> Putting these two statements together I find that all human activity
: |> is determined beforehand. That is, if I burn my morning newspaper
: |> instead of reading it, it isn't just plain madness, but it is a
: |> consequence of how the atoms in my brain is located, their energy,
: |> etc.
: |> 
: |> If we don't accept that our life is already determined, there has to
: |> be an element of our brain activity that isn't bounded by physical
: |> laws. If our thoughts (soul) are not bounded by physical laws, there
: |> are no reason for it to be bounded by our physical body. Which in turn
: |> means that when we stop living, and our body decomposes, our soul should
: |> keep going strong.
: |> 
: 
: BINGO!
: 
: |> OK, I know there might be some big holes in my logic, but could anyone
: |> point them out? And PLEASE, don't use any special terminology, as I am
: |> just a humble guy without any special knowledge in philosophy.
: |> 
: 
: As far as the "holes" in your logic...well some would argue that they are
: more like canyons.  In any case, I think there are some short comings in 
: your initial premise. You don't account for personality/conditioning/upbringing.
: This on a purely physical level makes us all extremely individual without even 
: bringing into play the consciousness/soul/whatever.
: On the other hand, I think, if given very specific control specimens, you could 
: predict the outcome or reaction to a series of stimuli.

I don't think personality/conditioning/upbringing are forgotten
in this logic. If the brains are only subject to the phisical laws,
p/c/u are also subject to those laws. They are results of the state
of the atoms in your or someone elses brains. Thus the state of our
brains would be determined in the beginning of time. If someone
kills somebody, that was determined. If my reasoning is illogical,
it was determined. Therefore, there would be no difference between
a right or a wrong conclusion, because they are both determined by
the same forces of nature. I could continue this way for a while,
the conclusion of which would be that most words just lose their
meaning. There would be absolutely no meaning of life or whatever,
and we can't even do something with our lives, because we simply
don't exist.
This sounds pretty depressing. Besides, how would we explain
consciousness? Therefore I think we do have a soul, in which things
like consciousness, will, mind, spirit or whatever you can think of
are.
This soul is very closely connected to our body, because our will
affects our brain, and therefore the rest of the body, while our
perception affects the consciousness. During life, body & soul are
one. After death, our physical body dies, however, our soul is not
material, it doesn't have to die if it can live without a body.
(And why not? It doesn't need physical stuff like oxygen or food)
If our soul lives on, the only question is: does it look for a new
body to inhabit (reincarnation), does it keep flying around here,
or is it going to some spiritual place (heaven).
IMHO, the first two are a bit to material for a soul (the second
even more than the first), so I prefer the last possibility.
This heaven would not be far away in the universe, but something
absolutely un-physical, being everywhere around us, without being
here (or the other way around), if you know what I mean.

Somehow this conclusion is quite compatible with my religious belief.


: |> torstein
: |> torstein@itekiris.kjemi.unit.no
: |> 
: |> ---------
: |> I think, therefore I am  - I think. 
: 
: -- 
: Greg 
: 
: --  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --

Great Greetings,
MCV


mcvos@cs.vu.nl