From: regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: WHO OWNS WHO?...or is it whom?...or what?
Date: 14 Aug 1992 13:08:47 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <1992Aug13.211626.15421@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <16e9bfINNijc@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@sdd.hp.com writes:
>
>> In article <1992Aug13.155229.7513@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>> >My real issue was with the words "ruin
>> >a person's life".  This implies that pregnancy will almost certainly "ruin" 
>> >your life physically, emotionally and financially.  
>>[deletion]
>> >  I was merely bringing Gordon's statement to heel.  Unwanted (or even wanted,
>> >for that matter) pregnancies CAN do all these things--with the effect of "ruin."
>> >But it is NOT a certainty.  Or highly likley.
>> 
>> How can you tell?
>
>  How can you?  Got any hard data?  I've been looking (obviously in the wrong
>places) to no avail.  And you've deleted a lot--including my questions.

Hmmm.  Do I have to tell?  I don't think there's a problem with someones
interpretation of their likelihood of ruin, so I'm not trying to talk them
out of anything.  Do I need to justify minding my own business?

I've been through it.  I meet the consequences of the economic, psycho-
logical and physical demands, daily.  But that's merely anecdotal, too.

But I've also participated on the net for some time and I've seen information
posted in the past.  I've also read any number of books on the subject, mostly
during the period of time prior to the birth of my second child.  So, I've
read on the subject, Jim, but I don't have recent references for you because
it isn't a currently important topic in my life today.

>> How can you, Jimmy, who have never sat through an unwanted pregnancy, tell
>> what is 'highly likely' with any certainty?  If I had to figure who would have
>> a better picture about this, you or a pregnant woman, I'd vote for the
>> pregnant woman.
>
>  Gordon Storga is not a pregnant woman.  I note you had no trouble with his
>assertion, which, by the above logic, is just as flawed as mine.  Shall we
>trot out the standard double-standard arguments for both sides at this point?

Gordon Storga is also a long-time poster to talk.abortion, and was around
during the period that statistics and information about the costs of pregnancy
were posted.  Just because *you* haven't seen them doesn't mean that others
haven't.

I don't consider it a 'double standard' to point out where one person's lack
of information is not necessarily binding upon another person.

However, let me also point out that we are talking about "likely" "ruin",
weren't we?  Let me also point out that Gordon spoke of 'ruin' (which is
a subjective judgement) while you brought up 'likelihood' (which is a
statistical measure).  These two things are not the same.

The question of likeliness may be answered by some review of
pregnancy experiences, BUT the question of 'ruin' is a value judgement and
is relative to the individual.  Gordon is willing to let individual women
determine the likelihood of 'ruin', and so am I.  You would talk them out
of it, based on your notion of likelihood.  Who is it who needs to do research
here?

From what I've read on the subject, I believe:
It is quite likely that women will suffer physical, emotional, psychological
and economic changes as the result of a pregnancy.

Whether an individual woman sees these changes as 'ruin' will depend upon
the woman.  The number of incidences is hardly as important as the individual
interpretation.   Since your interpretation of 'ruin' isn't being tested in
an abortion, why is your interpretation of 'likelihood of ruin' important?

Continued Pregnancy is not a free ride.  It has a high 'cost' to the woman.
Women who want the child may see the trade off between her 'cost' and her
'benefit' to be vastly rewarding.  But that doesn't alter the fact that
pregnancy requires physical, emotional, psychological and economic changes
from the non-pregnant state. 

I'm surprised you are having such a hard time finding this data.  Try a
phone call to your doctor.  Ask how much he charges for pre-natal care.
Ask what physical changes a pregnant woman goes through when bearing a
child to term.  Ask what other affects pregnancy and birth may have on the
emotional and psychological well being of a woman.  

When I was pregnant, I went to the library and carried home about 9 books
on the subject, most of which had some mention of the costs to the woman.
Do you live near a library?

Adrienne Regard