From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 08:35:43 GMT

In article <22707@oasys.dt.navy.mil> lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung) writes:
>lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) in Message-ID: 
><1992Jul23.220100.13716@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> writes to me:
>>
>>...I would have to conclude that all sins...are sins...
>
>Brilliant!  You thought that some sins weren't really sins?
>Which sins aren't sins?  the ones you don't want to give up?

This can be answered with a single question.

Do you shave your beard?

If so why is it ok to sin in this way? (yes shaving your beard off is
against the teachings in leviticus)

>>>>How do you know that homosexuality is a sin? 
>>>...the same way we would know that anything else is a sin.  If sin is 
>>>a separation from god and homosexuality departs from this god's design 
>>>specifications on us humans, if we reflect his image, then this behavior 
>>>departs from him.  By the transitive property, it is sin.  
>>
>>How do you know that homosexuality wasn't part of Gods plan?
>What plan is it a part of?  What biology course tells you that a penis 
>doubles as a rectal thermometer?

What does this have to do with homosexuality? Lesbians do not have
penis's, many homosexual men do not have anal sex, many heterosexual
couples do have anal sex (if you don't believe me ask on alt.sex).

Do you conclude that homosexuality that doesn't involve anal sex is ok?

>>My personal criteria is that which doesn't injure others is ok, and
>>that that does is only ok if it prevents much greater harm.
>Where did you get this?

Its basically utilitarian ethics.

BTW-The same idea is apparent throughout the Gospels, there is the great
    commandment as well as several passages stating that helping others
    takes precidence over the law.

>Star Trek?  

I guess you skipped a few humanities courses :)

>Regardless, why then, if there is 
>no question of god's existence, do you still consistently break your 
>own criteria?  You fail by your own standards.  Why don't you make your 
>own criteria more obviously selfish to make the words fit the actions?  

Loving someone of the same sex hurts no one. Love (including sex) makes for
the greater happiness of those involved, so not only is it not hurting
others loving someone of either sex benefits that person. 

>>>>Don't tell other people that a passage applies to them when you conviently
>>>>ignore the commandments only paragraphs away.
>>>Why not?
>>It's hypocrisy.
>Since everyone's a hypocrite, we shouldn't tell each other anything?

What kind of reaction do you think I would get if I launched into a
major argument against shaving based on leviticus but yet ate pork
and blood pie?

>You haven't answered this following question yet:
>>>...[paraphrased for brevity:]  Why are commandments issued?

The biblical commandments where the law for the ancient state of 
Israel. We can find numerous other examples of ancient law throughout
history, yet no one suggests that we should worry about our obiedience
to roman or greek law.

>>I hope judges arn't supposed to enforce old testement commandments, not
>>to[o] many people [correction--NO ONE] would be left alive...
>You think only the mass murderers should be put to death?

I don't think anyone has the right to take a life except in self
defense (or in direct defense of others).

>>Surely you have read leviticus...
>Actually no, I haven't.  Have you?  I just know what's supposed to
>be in there.

Yes, and I know what is there...

>>Homosexuality cannot be changed, even psychologists in the 1950's
>>realized this. 
>What kind of psychologists would say that?  They were obviously not logists.

Pick up a few assorted psychology texts.

>Because exceptions exist, no serious logist would make such a blanket 
>statement like that.

What is a logist? 

>>Your demands that someone change what cannot be changed
>>and what should not be changed results in suicide.
>I believe that one's persistence of straying from god results in suicide.

This is a non answer, a homosexual person has three choices,
1) Live the way they where born to live and love someone of the same sex.
2) For themselves into chastity (a burden which most heterosexuals are
   unwilling to take).
3) Pretend to be heterosexual and pretend to love a woman while pretending
   that a sexual act that is found utterly disgusting pleases them.

Clearly 3 is unethical since it involves living a lie as well as 
lying to and hurting someone who loves them.
2 is unreasonable to ask if you yourself are unwilling to follow
Pauls instructions that chastity is best. 

>Please learn the message of the cross.

Its the same as the lessons of the bullets that killed Martin Luther King,
Ghandi,and Harvey Milk.
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