From: ramsay@math.ubc.ca (Keith Ramsay)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Saturnalia I: "She shoulda kept her legs crossed"
Date: 10 Jan 1993 04:25:34 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: galois.math.ubc.ca


ramsay@math.ubc.ca (I) wrote:
|I suspect that some of us (perhaps Jay Stein among them) are hearing
|"she should have kept her legs crossed" and "she made her choice when
|she had sex" in a way which makes them mean roughly the same thing,
|and some of us (perhaps including Peter Nyikos) are hearing them in a
|way which makes them rather different. To me, at least, the former
|idea is loaded with extra implications which the latter doesn't have
|(and somewhat vice-versa).

In article <1993Jan8.092902.26203@wam.umd.edu> judi@wam.umd.edu 
(Judith Naomi Grossman) writes:
|Really?  I can't think of any pair of interpretations which would make
|the two phrases different enough to warrant Peter's "not even remotely
|resembling" claim.  True there are subtle differences - but the sentiment
|is the same.  Can you provide me with some interpretation that shows me
|wrong?

Okay, since you ask, I'll try to explain more. 

I often see "not even remotely resembling" said, when it is clearly an
exaggeration, as it is here. To me, the statements of the staunchest
pro-choicers and the most rabid anti-abortionists cannot really
accurately be said "not even remotely to resemble" one another!

Consider things literally for a moment. What does "crossing your legs"
have to do with "having sex"? It is clearly rather metaphorical
language.

Of all the things which one might associate metaphorically with sex,
whether or not one has one's legs crossed seems reasonably remote
ones. The implication, as I read such a thing, is that the advice is
against not just the sex but all of the sex-like things ranging from
sex all the way down to the level of "failing" to keep your legs
crossed. Which is quite a big assortment. Don't wear short skirts.
Have a chaperone at all times. That kind of thing. Now since it is
only metaphorical, there's no "canonical" interpretation assigned; it
is all like innuendo. Perhaps it is a regional cultural thing; I can
well imagine that people from slightly different backgrounds would
read it differently. It sounds meant to wave red flags to me.

I tried to think of a good analogy to illustrate what I mean here, but
couldn't come up with much of one: suppose that someone X has stated
that they believe that the number of people allowed to immigrate from
eastern Asia should be less than it is. Suppose that this is cited as
"X has said how he wants to keep the yellow tide at bay". Now I admit
this is a fairly grotesque example, but here too, "keep the yellow
tide at bay" might be taken in some bare-bones way as meaning simply
"allow fewer Asian immigrants", and the sentiment behind "allow fewer
Asian immigrants" *may* be as in the other phrase, but to go from one
to the other is to add a lot of racist "color" to it which is not
necessarily there to begin with.

To me, "keep your legs crossed" in this context suggests a kind of
moralistic quasi-Victorian "sex is something to be defended against"
sentiment. Even a bit of sexism, no? Of a kind which is not clearly
present in the anti-abortion postings I have thus-far seen. Oh, surely
there are plenty of people out there who think that way, but I really
don't care to go on the hunt to chase them down on this kind of
evidence.

In short, if you can't find enough noxious rot in someone's talk and
writing without "rephrasing" it, I suggest that some barrel-scraping
is going on. Try finding fresh barrels-- I am sure they are not far
away. :-)

|My point stands that Peter Nyikos is selectively self-censoring what he
|reads, just as I claimed in my original followup.

I don't have anything to say about that-- I haven't been keeping track
of that whole discussion.

Keith Ramsay            "Being a computer means not having 
ramsay@math.ubc.ca       to say you're sorry."
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,can.politics