HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Subject: Re: Vegetarian Cats2: Final Word
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 15:26:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <1992Dec31.225624.4647@zooid.guild.org> rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.133625.17519@eng.umd.edu> georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark) writes:
>>
>>No cat with any self respect would accept a vegetarian diet. Without
>>meat, a cat would soon become an impotent, gay, wimp, unable to
>>stand tall among his neighborhood peers who hunt birds, mice, and
>>squirrels for their meals. 
>>
>>
>Not to start a flamefest, but are you suggesting that gay people are impotent
>wimps? :-(
>

Are you suggesting that cats are people?

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: zkym02@hou.amoco.com (Keerthi Y. McIntosh)
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Reply-To: zkym02@hou.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:51:27 GMT



I have read your posts about Indian vegetarianism being a matter of habit and
compulsion..... WHAT ABOUT RELIGION?   If you are a brahmin you are not supposed to
partake in the eating of dead animals.  I have always attributed this distinction due
to a scarcity of meat at some point and the religious leaders making the following
bracketing.

Typically religious people do not have really gruelling work... they don't need
 meat, vegetables and beans and cereals can provide them with enough energy.

Warriors need lots of meat in order to have the strength to protect the country.. they
eat meat to make the strong and powerful.

Merchants and farmers have physically demanding jobs but not so much as the waririor so
they eat fish and poultry to help them sustain jobs.


That it how I  always how I justified my vegetarianism.  Since I am of the religious
class and have a relatively non-physical labor job,  I think it is appropriate.  


I don't not remember learning that the reason to be vegetarian was to save the animals.
It is a matter of your lifestyle needs.  We need not take more than we need.


Any comments... please no flames... this could be an interesting discussion.

Did I miss something in my upbringing

Keerthi
From: ruman@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (ruman)
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Organization: Master Time Killers INc.
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:44:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.food.veg

In article with message-id<1992Dec22.135534.7626@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>,  swami1@troy.cc.bellcore.com (swaminathan,kashi r) posts:
=>
=>  Have you visited the museum where they have saved the room where
=>Mahatma Gandhi spent his last days? The most important relic of his
=>that I vividly remember is the leather sandals he used regularly. 
=>


yeah and i bought a leather wallet at the khadi bhandar. they are
supposed to be made from the leather of naturally dead animals.

                                      considering the fact that
he was able to postulate a  whole line of viable economic theory,
with ethical treatment of animals and fellow humans as its basis,
i think it is unlikely that he would have been so careless or
inconsiderate as to use leather acquired off animals slaughtered
in some abattoir.

of course i could be wrong....

ruman

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Boiling miso (was Re: Vegetarianism or fanaticism)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 04:23:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.221917.22279@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM> loc@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Leigh Clayton) writes:
> I don't know that there is any scientific merit to the notion. The idea that
>yogurt micro-organisms would promote a beneficial intestinal flora has been
>quite convincingly debunked by actual studies showing that these organisms do
>not survive their trip through the stomach (although the idea persists, in
>large part due to the inertia it gained around the turn of the last century
>when it was promoted as a cure for aging, the idea being that aging was the
>result of 'bad' intestinal microfauna).

Regular intake of yogurt does in fact cause a change in intestinal
microflora, with an increase in lactobacillus and other yogurt species.
That's not to say that they overwhelm other species, and when you stop
eating yogurt, the intestinal flora reverts to pre-yogurt populations.
I don't think there's any evidence that miso bacteria behave the same way.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Kosher slaughter (was Re: Medicine & the Mall)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:27:56 GMT

Tim Miller writes:


>	Ever have a paper cut, cut yourself by running your fingers
>lengthwise across a razor, or open your fingers with a *very* sharp
>knife?  I have (particularly the last one) and can attest that, given a
>sharp enough blade, you *don't feel a thing* for quite awhile or until
>you disturb the wound.

Maybe so, but what about the profound distress of the poor
creature as it is shipped and herded into the abattoir?  The
smells of distress and death are something non-hman animals
are more sensitive to and reactive of, than humans.  The
intelligence and sentience of these beings has all too often
been self-servingly dismissed.  Russel, who kepts a "pet" herd
of cows can give ample witness concerning their remarkable capacities
and intelligence.  Russel, are you still there?  Help us out.

Just because an creature is so distressed and terrified that
no pain is felt, that doesn't preclude profound suffering
to have occurred.



>	Done correctly, the animals are unconcious withinone or two
>seconds.  They feel no pain.

Are you sure about this?  What is the range?  Is this 1-2 seconds
the lower limit?  I've heard testimony from responsible sources
that some animal remain conscious for must longer periods of time.
Granted that this may not be many, but that it does occur to
even a few is unconscionable.

					ted
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Vegetarian Cats2: Preamble
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:13:08 GMT


Dear reader, I could easily post each of the following topics
in one posting, but in the interests of seeing if people really
prefer shorter postings, I shall post separately each on the net.
The 7 topics to be posted included: 

Topics covered:
   A. The Morality Of Vegetarian Cats
   B.  Is it "Proper" to Feed a Vegetarian Diet to Cats
   C. The Environmental Impact Of Cats (Are Our Pets Also Pests?)
   D. Are Vegetarian Diets For Cats Are Too Expensive?
   E. Is It "Proper" To Feed A Vegetarian Diet To Cats?
   F.  What Do Vegetarian Cats Need?
   G.  Some Practical Advice and Compromises
   H.  Final Word
  
					Happy Vegetarian New Year,
						ted
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca (Jack Webb)
Subject: Food vs. Lifestyle...
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:17:29 GMT

I just joined this group, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut... but I just
have never been all that good at it ... ;)

There was a lot of discussion about whether anything but thoughts on food
should be posted here.  Well, I don't know about everyone else, but
vegetarianism is a very large lifestyle choice, that encompasses a lot more
issues than just what we eat!!  I don't see the problem in sharing other
issues that arise out of our choices to be vegetarian... makes as much sense
as discussing religion and vegetarianism ;)...

Let's just yak, and see where it takes us!!  (IMHO)

*j*

--
WE SAIL TONIGHT FOR SINGAPORE - WE'RE ALL AS MAD AS HATTERS HERE!!

*******************Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca***********************
****VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA...HOME OF THE NEUROTIC****
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: The Christian Argument for Vegetarianism
Date: 26 Dec 92 08:13:43 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University

In article <0NRcwB1w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> mbevan@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Mark Bevan) writes:
>Wow, now that was comedy at its best, My friends and I laugh for a hour
>on that, please do a follow-up!! 

Here it is.

>Well, I'm taking my friend hunting tommorrow (I don't hunt.. I enjoy 
>the outdoors, He hunts... he also enjoys the outdoors), I also like 
>moose meat and deer meat (My friend so far this year has got 6 deer
>and 2 moose).
>BTW We are Christians (Not the bleeding heart liberal type):)

Yes, the proud murderer type.

>Mark Bevan              mbevan@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 

A. Bulsari
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Organically grown foods (was Re: What's the Best Juicer)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:16:20 GMT

Steven L. Hopper writes:


>I just heard earlier this week, on a morning talk show, that most of the
>fruits and veggies that this country consumes in the winter come from 
>countries that use pesticides that are banned in this country!  

Interesting!


[...]
>What the hell good is banning DDT, for instance, if the FDA permits food
>to be imported grown with these very same products!

Good question!

Not only does this kind of incomplete banning seem self-defeating, but 
it is also unfair to those growers who have to make do with smart
farming practices and learn how to employ, say, "integrated pest management".
(IPM).  That is, keep pests and diseases at an acceptable level via
a more judicious and selective use of "safe" pesticides (when
REALLY necessary) and more frequently rely on the use of biological
methods, genetic resistance and appropriate eco-management practices.
Unfortunately, the implementation of IPM has been slow, especially
in relation to food crops.  Apparently, only some 15% of US total
area of cultivated land employs some form of IPM!

Here is one example of a success via the use of an environmental
sound form of pest control:
	
	A lethal pest -- the New World screw worm fly -- recently
	killed more than 12,000 animals in Libya.  Unchecked, the larvae
	of the fly could have eaten their way through 70 million head
	of livestock in five North Afican countries.  The outbreak
	began in Libya in in 1988 and the flies infected about 40,000
	sq. km in Libya.  Female screw worm flies lay their eggs in
	open animal wounds.  The magggots that develop eat living
	tisue and can eventually kill the host animal.  FOA and
	IFAD started an eradication programme that relied on swamping
	the female screw worm flies with male flies that were 
	irradiated to make them sterile.  The males mate with females
	whose eggs than fail to hatch, and the population eventually
	dies out.  MOre than a billion sterilized Mexican flies
	were flown into the area and used in the control operation.
	No infected animals have been found since April 1991.
	(from M. Tolba, SAVING OUR PLANET, 1992).

We should also note that this particular pest was not indigenous
but was brought over by heedless humans via contaminated livestock
from South America.  Of course, a vegetarian economy might
be better where such a problem would not have arisen in the first
place, but nevertheless this eradication of the untold suffering of t
these farm animals, as well as the indigenous wildlife, being eaten
alive is indeed an important and noteworthy success story.

						Holiday Cheers,
							ted




>Steve
From: avi@eagle.imagen.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Date: 22 Dec 92 01:32:24 GMT
Reply-To: avi@eagle.imagen.com
Organization: none

I always thought that Indian vegetarianism was due to "Ahimsa" (or
Non-harming, Non-Violence in Sanskrit) which is both a spiritual and a 
religious concept.

The reason why Indian vegetarians are usually Lacto-Vegetarians is because
meat and fish/seafood consumption involves KILLING the animal/fish/etc to 
eat it (or at least buying it from the farmer/hunter/merchant who killed it, 
thus supporting him and partaking in the Bad Karma generated) - while Milk, Ghee 
and Cheese consumption does not involve KILLING anything. 

(In modern times, one might argue wheather the animal is EXPLOITED or not.
This might be true in the U.S. and the West in general, but I doubt if this is
true in India. Certainly, the cow is not KILLED in order for its milk to be
acquired. If anything, the Modern Dairy farmer would be inclined to prolong the
cow's life as much as possible, as the cow is his source of income).

Egg consumption which is NOT common among Indian vegetarians is usually because
an egg is seen as a living thing, if at least in potential (I believe
the distinction between fertelized and un-fertilized eggs is a modern one).

While its true that certain Temples would require the incoming crowd to take
off their leather shoes, etc. there are on the other hand, RESPECTED spiritual
leaders (such as the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math and others) who were sitting 
on dead animals skin on their seat. Of course, it could be the skin of a
naturally killed animal (accident, old age, etc.)

All above remarks, refer to the PRINCIPLES of vegetarianism of India in 
Times Past. The situation today might be different...
From: bbeck@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Date: 22 Dec 92 02:00 PST
Subject: Re: Immune system
Nf-ID: #R:lee.seas.ucla.edu:8933:cdp:1451200013:000:109
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!bbeck    Dec 22 02:00:00 1992


when I eat meat, I notice my lymph glands swell up ... listen to the 
body!   

Bernie B.    

bbeck@igc.org
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism or fanaticism
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:45:37 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Dec30.184930.12998@sarah.albany.edu> la1002@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>Take miso, for example.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard 
>"Don't boil it, it destroys the enzymes" I'd be rich.
>WHAT enzymes? What do they do? How can I COOK with the damn stuff
>(like lots of cookbooks that SHOULD know better say to do) without
>bringing it to boiling temperature!!!

Well, if you were busy fermenting miso, you wouldn't want to boil it
because it wouldn't become miso.  But once it's ready for use, it doesn't
matter if the enzymes are destroyed or not.  They get destroyed by
digestion anyway.  Some people will tell you otherwise (generally people
who do not understand scientific nutrition), but the enzymes in food are
usually irrelevant to human nutrition.

There are reasons to minimize cooking vegetables if you want to get all
their vitamins, and boiling some foods ruins their taste or appearance;
these are different matters.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: zkym02@hou.amoco.com (Keerthi Y. McIntosh)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegetarian New Years Party Snack Ideas
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:11:09 GMT
Reply-To: zkym02@orl.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco


Bart,

I too am having a New Years Party and this is on my list of snacks... this one is not
necessarily fast but it is a good make ahead.

Eggplant Caviar  from the _River_Road_Recipes_II a collection of recipes from the
Junior League of Baton Rouge

1 Large Eggplant, bake 1 hr at 400 (whole) skin and chop
1 Green Bell Pepper chopped
2 peeled fresh tomatoes  peeled and chopped
1 medium onion chopped	
2 cloves garlic minced finely
1/4 cup olive oil (I use less)
2 tablespoons white wine ( optional )
salt and pepper to taste



Saute onions, garlic and green pepper in the olive oil until softened but not brown.
Mix eggplant with tomatoes and add to the onion saute.  Add white wine and a salt and 
pepper.  Allow to cook until mixture becomes thick.   Serve well chilled on toasted 
pumpernickel bread.


I am planning to serve the caviar cold this year... but I really like it warm.  Hope 
your party is a success!


Keerthi McIntosh
From: sbhattac@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Shankar Bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:54:29 GMT
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business

In article <1992Dec21.205127.1242@hou.amoco.com> zkym02@hou.amoco.com writes:

>       .............  If you are a brahmin you are not supposed to
>partake in the eating of dead animals.

While I am not particularly interested in arguing about the unanswerable
questions that Keerthi raises, I do wish people would stop waving wild
generalizations about Hindu dietary practice around.

Brahmins are not necessarily "not supposed to partake in the eating of dead
animals". I do hope that double negative is clear. Their dietary practice
is quite regional, and I have no idea why many vegetarian Hindus have
difficulty seeing that. There is an appreciable dichotomy between the North
and the South in this regard.

The brahmins of Kashmir, Bengal, and probably Orissa and Assam are quite
omnivorous. In Bengal the Vaishnavs (a very small minority; Bengal is
heavily Saivite) do not eat meat, but even the Vaishnavs eat fish. They
don't eat chicken eggs, but they eat duck eggs.

Almost any generalization you make about Hindu practice is likely to be
wild. Some caution is indicated. Hinduism does not have an established
monolithic dogma.

As to the generalization about the warrior classes: the Rajputs, as clearly
a warrior class as any in India, are vegetarian. I don't know if they eat
eggs, but they don't eat meat or fish.

I'm not interested in the general direction of this thread, and I will shut
up and go away now, but if we are going to argue about the reasons behind
the facts, let's at least keep the facts straight.

- Shankar
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca (Jack Webb)
Subject: Re: The Christian Argument for Vegetarianism
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 20:09:44 GMT

ted...

thanks for providing backup for my own response to Mark... I knew I had read
the article somewhere... :)

bye for now!
*j*
--
WE SAIL TONIGHT FOR SINGAPORE - WE'RE ALL AS MAD AS HATTERS HERE!!

*******************Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca***********************
****VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA...HOME OF THE NEUROTIC****
From: drew@cs.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegetarians or not vegetarians?
Date: 24 Dec 1992 23:56:55 +1100
Organization: Computer Science Department, ANU, Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.anu.edu.au

georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark) writes:
>Many people, like Lee, dislike r.f.v. being used as a forum by those
>who grandstand their political and moral views in front of an unwilling
>audience, especially since there exists several separate newsgroups for
>these specific topics:  animal rights, ethics, religion, etc.

Use the delete key :-).

>Also, your argument that Lee fails to counter specific assertions in
>your own posts is without merit. When you post articles in excess of
>100 lines of text on a daily basis, nobody but yourself and Abhay is
>going to take the time to read them. Besides, much of what you post
>is read in by an optical scanner, so I'm unconvinced you've even
>read it yourself.

Fair go George! The fact that Ted gets followups shows somebody is reading.
And for the record, I enjoy Ted's postings - along with all the rest. And
I've learned some things which have personally benefitted me (such as the
preferred percentage of fat in one's diet, that cooking with unsaturated
fats at high temperatures is a no, no, etc.)

Plus, I'm pretty sure Ted doesn't have a scanner.

Drew.
--
The way most people get their exercise is by jumping to conclusions.
From: abulsari@aton.abo.fi
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Vegetarian Congress to be held in India
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:24:32 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University

Stolen from misc.news.southasia :

>VEGETARIAN CONGRESS

>NEW DELHI - Over 500 scientists including many from abroad will take
>part in the world vegetarian congress to be held here from January 2-3
>at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences. Dr. Umesh Kapail,
>organising secretary of the congress, said.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca (Jack Webb)
Subject: ok, I'll quit with the apologies...
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 16:55:22 GMT

Abhay,

thanks :) :) :)

*j*
--
WE SAIL TONIGHT FOR SINGAPORE - WE'RE ALL AS MAD AS HATTERS HERE!!

*******************Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca***********************
****VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA...HOME OF THE NEUROTIC****
From: 11jsutton@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: "Better Than Milk?" question.
Date: 27 Dec 92 17:29:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: gallua.1992Dec27.122944.1
Organization: Gallaudet University

I recently bought a wonderful soy-based beverage called "Better Than Milk?".
It is available both in litre cartons as a ready-to-drink beverage and in
1lb, 5oz canisters as a dehydrated powder.  "Better Than Milk?" tastes VERY
good - very rich and creamy.

What I'd like to know is:  Is this product vegan?  Does anyone know?  (The
ingredient list says "maltodextrin, soy oil, calcium carbonate, dehydrated
tofu, sodium caseinate, sea salt, natural flavor, cyanocobalamin (vitamin
B12)", but this list doesn't say much about if it's vegan or not!)

--Jennifer Sutton
  11jsutton@gallua.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (james.w.lacey)
Subject: Re: Pets and animal rights
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:19:47 GMT

In article <1451200014@igc.apc.org> bbeck@igc.apc.org writes:
>
>did y'all know that some brands of pet food include recycled doggies
>and kitties as the meat source?  I've read that dogs can get by quite
>well on a veggie diet ("Laurel's Kitchen") ... but I dunno if carnivorous 
>kitties can do the same ..
>...

Cats require taurine, which is found in meat, but
not veggies.  (The human body manufactures its own taurine.)
There is some vegetarian cat food made with synthetic taurine
on the market (try a health food store), but if you cant
get it, dont put your cat on a vegetarian diet.


-- 
     Jim Lacey  --  my own opinions    
     email:  att!cbnewsl!jlacey  or  jlacey@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
     D'ou venons-nous? Que sommes-nous? Ou allons-nous?
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Kosher Slaughter
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:49:00 GMT


Russel writes:
>I don't normally get involved in debates about how painfull or
>distressing slaughter is, since the thing which is really wrong
>is the destruction of a conscious individual. A subject-of-a-life
>as Regan would put it. From my perspective, what seems to be
>lacking in such arguments as this one is an  understanding of and
>empathy for cattle as complex, thinking, feeling individuals.
>Cattle are social creatures, who empathise with and learn from
>observing their peers. They form strong bonds of attachment, not
>only with their young, but with other members of their herd.

Sorry to have called you into this unsavory debate about which
is the lest cruel method of animal slaughter, when, as you
correctly point out, slaughtering in the first place is what 
should be at issue.

Russel, I just wanted to thank you for taking time out from 
your busy correspondence and from dear Sara, to here provide a
very moving and informed account of your direct experience with
cows.  For most of us, cows remain a mere abstraction and so
to hear from somebody who has a direct acquaintanceship and
loving interspecies relationship with these lovely animals is
indeed a rare privilege.

		Give Sara a hug for me,
				ted



Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Subject: Re: Refrigeration Question
Reply-To: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 14:27:14 GMT

If you don't use a refridgerator, why not turn it off and use
it as a large closet?  My father has no closets in his kitchen
but plenty of space, so he got a broken refridgerator/freezor
for the extra shelf space.  It's always wierd to get room temp.
stuff out of it, but it makes sense...

Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet