HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher)
Subject: Pentagrams
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:13:05 GMT
Distribution: alt.magick
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

A question came up on alt.satanism about the inverted pentagram vs. the
upright pentagram. I gave the questioner the standard lines about the pentagram
being a sttylized human figure & the upright has hir head exalted toward the 
sky where the inverse has hir head buried in earthly matters.

I also gave the explanation about the pythagorean attributions of the various 
points of the pentagram with the aristotlean elements. The upright puts
"spirit" or invoked force above the 4 earthly elements where the "satanic"
inverse puts the earthly elements above the "Spiritual".

Now, these are standard textbook explanations. I happen to think that they
are a crock of shit ( a moments reflection on the various philosophies of
"satanic" groups would probobly convince you as well; seems to me the inverse
pentagram would be a better symbol for scientists than "satanists" ).

What is the history of the "goat of mendes" symbol of the Church of Satan?
Can someone tell me where and by whom the "inverse satanic" pentagram was 
first used? Any other theorizings on the symbolic meanings of inverse vs. 
upright pentagrammes?
Please, no repeats of my previous explanations unless you can back it up with
some solid history...

-Scott
Newsgroups: alt.magick,talk.religion.misc
From: mccalld@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: 17 Dec 92 14:39:14 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University

> 
> how about sci.hermetic? how about making it moderated (by several people
> of disparate views, and with a pretty open policy about letting posts
> through, say)?
Whom did you have in mind?!
david
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Daath & Tzaddi ??
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:38:23 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

Hello,

mccalld@vax.sonoma.edu writes:

> Why is Daath, knowledge, considered the false spheroth?

For an in-depth, and easy-to-find net answer, ftp Colin Low's voluminous
_Notes_on_Kaballah_ (in /pub/magick/qabalah/NoK*, I believe) from the
slopoke ftp site.  One statement keeps resonating in my mind, that 
Daath is the 'hole' from which Malkuth fell during the 'Fall.'

> Why is Tzaddi not the star?

Well, I haven't seen anyone directly say this, so I thought I'd at least
mention it.  For those who do not know, Crowley is (most probably) referring
to the Golden Dawn attributions of the Tarot major arcana to the letters
of the Hebrew alphabet.  It seems Aiwass told him that Tzaddi isn't
properly attributed to the trump 'The Star.'

Maybe Aiwass just took a look at Oswald Wirth's Tarot/letter attributions,
which I believe were around in the 1890's.  These attributions are only
offset from the G.D. by one, with aleph=magus, beth=priestess, ..., resh=
last judgement, but the last two are switched: tau=world, shin=fool.

Personally, these resonate with me much better than the GD's or Crowley's
ret-conned version, although I like to switch back to shin=world, tau=fool.
Makes that first hesitant path from Malkuth to Yesod make more sense, hm?
Oh, and Tzaddi is the Moon.

Again, your mileage may vary.

Steve Cranmer
From: craig@cattnts.canada.ncr.com (Craig Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:41:33 GMT
Organization: AT&T / NCR Canada Ltd., Toronto, Canada

In article <1992Dec15.062017.9630@sobeco.com> ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.) writes:

>This civilization is gangrenous.  Like the Phoenix, it must immolate itself
>to be reborn from its ashes.

Have you no eyes to see the good in our world as well?  Has life been so hard
on you that you have given up entirley on our world (for should our
civilization collapse, our world as we know it would surely be ended)?

Yes, there is plenty wrong with the world, but things are getting better.
If we can survive, then I hope that we can grow and evolve into something
better and better.  To destroy civilization and start over is drastic.
To believe that things would then be better, naive (although optomistic in
its own way) and simplistic.

I would suggest that our best hope lies in suffering through the trials and
tribulations of our civilization's adolescense and allowing it / us to
reach maturity.

>The collapse of the roman civilization didn't
>wipe out all existing knowledge as some fear would happen should ours collapse.
>I'd say the collapse of the roman civ. paved the way for our civilization.
>I heard somewhere that when something dies, it favors the birth of something
>new.

>In our century, we have become obsessed with keeping death away at all cost.

As well as calling death for no reason (suicides).  Different sides of the
same coin?  How about the obsession with having it MY WAY, getting it NOW?
We are barely learning to compromise.  Good things take time, the better
the longer (Rome wasn't built in a day, and all that).

Build on what is available now.  Don't wait for someone else to build a better
world from our ashes, they (probably) won't.  If you want a better world,
then build one.

>Ladislas.

Merry Christmas,
craig
-- 
Craig Campbell		|	These opinions are entirely the result of a 
Systems Engineer	|	small butterfly crashing into the far side
NCR Canada,		|	of the planet.  Chaos Rules.
an AT&T Company		|	I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: talk.magick
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:07:03 GMT

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:

>I still want to know:
>Why?  For what purpose?  
>Who will be going there?
>Why can't we make this Alt.Magick into subgroups or leave it the
>way it is and broaden its perspective slightly?
>What is the problem with this group?
>How would you change it if you could?

Unless I'm mistaken, a few folks out there in the readership of a.m 
would like to make this group accessible to more folks on the net.
Many news sites only carry selected alt.* groups, or don't even bother
picking up any of the altnet.

However, the "real Usenet" heirarchies (rec., soc., news., comp., talk.,
misc., and at least one more that I'm forgetting) are carried at almost
every site that picks up news.  Creating a misc.magick would make the
group availible to a few more people.

Having survived more than a couple of group creations and group re-orgs
on news.groups, I think I can safely say that the "struggle" to move
alt.magick into the mainstream would be...interesting at least.  ;)



--
Michael D. Adams       (aka StarOwl)	| Of all sexual aberrations, chastity
StarOwl@uiuc.edu       (NeXT mail OK)	| is the strangest. -- Anatole France
anon.46@pax.tpa.com.au (anonymously)	|------------------------------------
an692@anon.penet.fi    (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv
From: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Hello
Date: 19 Dec 92 04:45:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) 

Hello all.

It has been a long time since I have participated in this conferance.
For reasons that I care not to discus, I had to abandon any discusion 
in this area.  First off, let me whole heartidly apoligize to those 
people whom I did not get a chance to keep up my part of the 
conversation with; I did not intend to be rude.

Personal Info:
I am four months shy of being legal(21 for those without a clue).
I am a student at NYU (Business major). Did I spell that right?
I am now and have been for as long as I can remember interested in   
Magick.
I am a SKEPTIC.

Following some advice, I read( skimmed ) some books from the Magickal 
childe in N.Y. City.
For the most part, I understood very little, especially the Crowley 
stuff.

I would love to learn more about 'Magick', partly for the power trip 
and, well, I think that it calls to me. I say think because it just 
might be an extension of a desire for power ect.
Anyway, I think that learning about the 'Astral Plane' is as good a 
place as any to start.  If anyone can give me some advice on this 
subject, I would apreciate it.

Thank You
---
 . 1st 1.00 #970 . Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
                                                                                                      
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:14:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.224711.14248@u.washington.edu> grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
>
>Fortunately, it's possible to make decent guns using low-tech tools. (The
>weaponry used in the Civil War gives some idea of the possibilities.)  One
>of the volumes of the _Foxfire_ series -- #5? -- has a big section on
>gunsmithing, and your local black-powder club ought to be able to put you
>onto other resources.  But someone, or better yet several someones, should
>learn and practice the appropriate skills, before they're needed.

 Cannons are actually fairly easy to tool if you have the materials. I've
worked with small black powder cannons made from old WWII battleship
anti-aircraft armanent. They took the barrels (which are rather good
quality steel) and retolled the outside and inside. Can't tell it by
looking where they came from. You can get a good cannon with a barrel
about four or five feet long that is rifled and fires either a six or so
inch conical shell (big holes in things!) or can be loaded with many .30
or so calibar lead balls (big shotgun effect). These things are rather
easy to transport and the only upkeep is keeping rust off and making sure
you don't pack powder in when there is a spark in there. IF you do that,
they blow up. Good for being mounted in a settlement, that's for sure.

>Join an almost-dead lodge of some dilapidated fraternal order, revive
>it, and then have some of the members buy and donate to the lodge a chunk
of wilderness property to serve as a lodge campsite.

 Gosh, who do I know doing things like that?

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:17:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec16.191607.29092@primerd.prime.com>, jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci) writes...
>In article <1gnu5cINNrbt@agate.berkeley.edu>, key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key) writes:
>|> i suggest talk.magick
>|> moderated (with lenient post rulesjust keep the bible thumpers out)
> 
>Erg. I suppose, if this becomes a consensus, but I don't have to like it. :)

Not a favorite with me either.

>If we do make it moderated, we really should have a little
>more stringent guildlines than others. I'd like to see
>rejected posts circulated to the N moderators, just to assure
>that they are really not useful. Also, some kind of editorial
>policy, which should be used in rarity, for seperating
>the dreck from the gold. 
> 
>However, overall, I'd still like to see if we can't make a go
>of it unmoderated...Yes there will be problems, but I don't
>like the moderation policy on some groups, and my
>Thelemic instincts (if any) tell me it's not the way to go. 
>I suggest we all just learn to use kill files, and put on ice 
>the people who get obnoxious.
> 
>--
>Jason R. Pascucci
>jasonp@primerd.prime.com

I strongly dislike the idea of having it moderated too.  The 
current ongoing chaos is much more to my liking.  Kill 
files and the "next" key are good solutions to silly posts.

I've noticed that a lot of time the most idiotic posts have 
a grain of truth, and are so annoying that people react and often 
end up having good discussions.  I wouldn't want to lose this.

Also, I've noticed that my reactions to posts I consider idiotic 
have evolved over the past 2 years. (Has it really been that 
long?).  I think I've learned to deal more kindly and patiently 
with these posters (though I sometimes feel like indulging my 
more hostile side).  I've seen other people show signs of the 
same.  I'm not claiming that dumb posts have helped me evolve 
though - I've just developed some immunity.:)

One thing I would like to see is a more proactive approach to 
getting newbies started on the right track, rather than flaming 
them into oblivion the first time they open their mouths and say 
something stupid.  Those who wish could write up a one paragraph
(note one paragraph, Tagi):) description of their magickal 
interests/philosophy/approach, including their email address.  
This could be posted along with the FAQ  - encouraging newbies to 
email the person who appeals to them.  It could also be 
mailed to someone who makes a totally clueless post.  This would 
also serve to represent participants (and there are many) who do 
not feel that the FAQ and/or Thelemaness of the group adequately 
represents them.

- Peggy -
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:16:36 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Dec13.015138.12797@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher) writes...
>In article <JOSHUA.92Dec12054747@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>>
>I would REALLY be interested in a reason why the russians would be "up for"
>a large scale move into space....
> 
>-Scott

We're magickians, Scott.  Let's *give* them a reason.  What would motivate
them?
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: books on childbirth customs
Date: 15 Dec 1992 21:17:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

If anyone is still interested in this subject, I checked out a few of 
the books on the list that I posted a while back.  One that looks
wonderful is _History of Childbirth, Fertility, Pregnancy and Birth in Early
Modern Europe_ by Jacques Gelis.  It contains sections on beliefs about
menstruation, souls of ancestral children, sexual symbolism, how to 
cook placenta (a personal favorite), protecting the child from harmful
spells, and many other very practical wonderful things.

If you're currently in the process of *doing* any of this, then you
might want to skip the section on aberrations.  I would have certainly
tossed lunch if I read that when I was pregnant, and I have a pretty
strong stomach.  If you've never done it and don't know anything about
it, then you probably want to read some modern book on the topic or
you'll come away with some really strange ideas.

A tidbit (quoting from a parchment from the Nantes region, dated 
between 1643 and 1715):

"To start a woman's period: take a handful of hempseed which has been
thoroughly crushed, infuse it for twenty-four hours with an ounce of
fine white sugar in a pint of white wine.  Drink a large glass of it
first thing in the morning; if nothing happens, continue for three
days in succession.

"To stop the flux in women: take the powdered rind of a pomegranate,
one dram, with two fingers of plantain water, have ready a skein of
new thread, dip it in strong vinegar and place it on the part."

I also looked at _Childbirth in the World's Oldest Cultures_ and was
disappointed that it was only about childbirth positions and the like.
Only of interest to someone who was about to do it.

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
From: X67107@BARILVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Merkabah Mysteries
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:02:05 GMT
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel

In article <mcnair.48.723765823@slab.unt.edu>, mcnair@slab.unt.edu (SEAN MCNAIR)
says:
>
>        I read a book last summer about the Merakbah Mysteries. Some people
>believe that biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus achieved their
>supernatural powers through the study of the Merkabah. Does anybody know
>more about this?
>
>
>                        Sean Jeffers Mc Nair

We were discussing the Merakbah mysteries (Should merkavah; chariot in
hebrew) I skipped half the lesson to read NEWS But I recall the lecturer said
that in this experiance the Rider in the chariot was brought into the higher
heavens. Details of the visions was discused and a phycological explantion
refered to. (about Seeing large red eyes .....) There is much theological
discussion on the  the topic since the rider in the chariot sees strange animals
(with what can best be described as fractral, self similar faces) lovingly
carresing the body of the CREATOR. one thery postulates a duality, there is go d
and there is another being that does the dirty work of actual creation. The
creator is described in litrally asrtonomical proportions.
    Anyhow due to the above mentioned description the tarditional Jewish
explations dismiss the Merkavah text as heresy and say that they were
introduced by a pervereted Mouslem sect.

 The lecture conssited of lots of other discussionds of the topics related to
this. The reason for the person partaking in this type of mystical experiance
is clearly that he gets to meet god himself, and that way be guranteed some
form of immortality.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H
                       Oren THE Laughing Magican
        LAUGHING DOES TICKLE THE SOUL, THERE IS NO BETTER REASON
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:14:48 GMT


I think the whole idea of changing the newsgroup or changing its name sucks.
Just my .0000002 cents worth. ..
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: talk.magick
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
	<1992Dec16.214645.2410@primerd.prime.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:24:26 GMT


In article <1992Dec16.214645.2410@primerd.prime.com> 
jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci) writes:
	      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-would you cut it out, please?

>   In article <71826@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth 
>   NagaSiva) writes:

>   |> I still want to know:

>   |> Why?  For what purpose?  

>   To expand our offering. Not everybody (in fact, I believe
>   less than 1/2) gets the alt groups.

there is a point of view which says that people who don't get alt groups
are obviously not cool enough to bother with. or should set up a newsfeed
on another machine that does get alt groups. I see some merit in this
viewpoint.

the reason I think a 'mainstream' group should definitely be moderated
(and the idea of each post needing to circulate between the whole group
of moderators is a good one) is precisely that the volume of readers,
and hence the volume of posters, and hence the volume of idiots, is 
likely to go way up. I would even accept a rule that the first post 
from *anyone*, regardless of their fatuity quotient, be allowed to
pass.

>   |> Who will be going there?

>   Everybody. Alt.magick will most likely be disassembled. 

I object to this strenuously.

>   |> Why can't we make this Alt.Magick into subgroups 

this is an idea. 

>							 or leave it the
>   |> way it is and broaden its perspective slightly?

no! no! no!

>   And, anyway...aren't you people :) charged with
>   Spreading the Word among the profane?

no. fuck the profane.

josh
From: ahaigh@unixg.ubc.ca (Andrew B Haigh)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: >Grimoir
Date: 13 Dec 92 20:14:08 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

	Certainly reads like Sex Magick to me. I've never run across that specific ritual before but it reminds me a lot of others in the same genre.

				ahaigh@unixg.ubc.ca
				ahaigh@illuminati.org

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: moderation (was: Re: misc.magick...)
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 12:18:38 GMT


a moderated newsgroup works thus:

the moderator(s) receive posts as mail. they then approve them, and
send them out to the net. moderation can be loose or tight. This is
how I would propose to moderate a 'mainstream' magickal newsgroup
(and the perceptive reader may have noticed that I am have somewhat
ambiguous feelings about the necessity for such):

the moderator group would consist of at least three moderators, say
BA, amanda and myself (as you can see disparate views would be represented
here). any first post from anyone whatsoever would be approved. disapproval
would have to be unanimous for a post to be rejected. rejected posts would
be returned to the sender with editorial comments and suggestions.

josh
From: malcolmc@spider.co.uk (Malcolm Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: misc.magick...
Date: 19 Dec 92 11:15:30 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Dec17.122303.2554@dct.ac.uk> ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig) writes:
>
>Possibly the propagation % is a little on the low side for an average
>alt group but it still reaches 60% of *all* usenet sites. It might
>be worth sending a newgroup for alt.magick and prompt a few more sysadmins
>to create it but that's about all.

No. It reaches 60% of all usenet sites who send in arbitron listings. Since
sites socially minded enough to do this usually take alt groups too, its not
a meaningful figure IN THIS CONTEXT. Its a useful comparison between groups,
not a useful indication of percentage coverage of the _whole_ USENET

--- Malcolm

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Malcolm Campbell, Senior Engineer     |   Spider Park, Stanwell Street
  Spider Software,                      |   Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland
  Division of Spider Systems Ltd        |   Tel: +44 31 555 5166
From: cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: PostScript Thelema
Date: 11 Dec 92 11:54:13 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

In article <1992Dec10.030748.21787@cs.su.oz.au>, jimu@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (James Uther) writes:
> In article <1992Dec02.235222.12834@microsoft.com>, tonypo@microsoft.com (Anthony Popek) writes:
> |> Since I work in a Windows/DOS environment, how do I read/print
> |> these files?
> |> 
> |> 				Loki
> 
> 	get a Mac.

Not the most useful of answers!

There is as version of a program called 'GhostScript' that runs of the IBM-PC.
Get a hold of that from an ftp site somewhere. Then you can view the PostScript
files. Either that, or you need a laser printer with a PostScript cartridge
fitted.....

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     *            	V.
                        cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
 *	 *              acarty@cs.strath.ac.uk

   *   *		"Convictions cause convicts"

What is real??                           - Principia Discordia
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
	<71824@cup.portal.com> <1992Dec16.210900.1740@primerd.prime.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:15:38 GMT


In article <1992Dec16.210900.1740@primerd.prime.com> 
jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci) writes:
	      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^--cute, jason.

>   In article <71824@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth 
>   NagaSiva) writes:

>   |> Toward what, precisely, is the point directed?

>   The genetalia?

this is all really gravity oriented and boring.

josh