HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pkust@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Paul R Kust)
Subject: Re: Good Teachers in Public Schools (Was Re: Clinton ... (was Re: Thef
Followup-To: alt.politics.clinton
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:49:23 GMT

In article <21674@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
 writes:
>In article <1992Oct05.182911.11770@NeoSoft.com> hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Anderse
n) writes:
>>> The facts are simple.  The amount of money you pay a teacher is NOT
>>> related to the quality of the teacher.  Teacher pay is already very
>>
>>I'm surprised that you, of all people, would make such a statement that is
>>so ignorant of marketplace forces.
>
>Teaching is a commodity skill.  =I= could be a teacher, =you= could be a
>teacher.  For this reason, pay will always be low.  Even if the most
>highly qualified person in the world were to come along, pay would remain
>low.
>
Actually, there are generally certain requirements that must be met before one 
can become a teacher; these requirements are well within the grasp of most 
people. However, while most people can become teachers, only a few of them can 
actually _teach_.  Teaching is a skill which requires a certain mixture of 
knowledge, communication skills, temperament, and caring that is by no means 
found in all of us.  We should definitely pay more for those in whom this 
mixture is found.

>Whenever a profession becomes a "commodity" profession, pay rates fall.
>The pay rate will fall until is above the lowest paid professional that
>has the skills required.  Since accountants, who are some of the lowest
>paid 4 year degree workers, are qualified to teach math well into the
>high school level, math teachers will remain low paid - even though
>someone with a PhD in Applied Mathematics is more "qualified."
>
This, again, is a common misconception.  It is becoming painfully obvious that 
a person is _not_ qualified to teach simply because he/she has the letters PhD 
appended to his/her name.  It is possible to graduate from major universities 
in this country with a PhD without ever standing in front of a classroom to 
give a lecture.  At most universities, teaching ability is _not_ a 
consideration for tenure, or it receives minor consideration at best.  Parents 
sending their children to college routinely ask if professors teach the 
courses, beleiving that they are better served than by having a graduate 
student teaching a course.  I am not in favor of turning over courses to be run
by graduate students, but many such students have more time, more ability, and 
more intrest in teaching than the professors they work for.

>You cannot produce a better product simply by throwing money at the
>person selling it.

No, but if you hold it out in front of that person, you might be able to cut a
better deal.
-- 
*** Paul R. Kust "Banjoman" *** Kust.1@osu.edu / kust@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                   | "Read my lips ... I'll do anything to
Jes' a-pickin' and a-grinnin'.     |  get reelected ... I knew nothing about
Yes I play, I just don't play well.|  Iran-Contra."  What credibility problem?
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:16:37 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1992Oct11.083428.16835@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>
>	Well, you both are right in this case...  You shouldn't teach the
>kids mumbo-jumbo, but homeopathic medicine isn't quite "medicine" yet.  It
>does some good, but I think it could use a little more research to get a 
>better understanding about what really does what.  There is a lot of good
>potential there (some of those "Old Wives Tales" and folk remedies do work!).
>
So what is homeopathic medicine? I've not heard of it.
--
Griff Miller - miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com - My opinions are mine, not Western's.
  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom 
   and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7 
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:14:27 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <21687@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> In article <1992Oct07.234507.23650@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>>|> The lost Federal tax revenue on that
>>|> $400K is likewise dwarfed by the benefits provided by the church.
>>
>>Benefits to the FEDERAL government?  Name one.
> 
> The Federal government subsidises food programs.  Our church contributes
> literally tons of food to local food banks.  It also provides the labor
> to deliver and prepare that food.  It also provides the labor to staff
> free health clinics.  Etc.  These are just a few examples of federal
> programs that we provide either the materials or labor to implement.

	This assumes that the Federal Government should be in the charity
business.  Don't get me wrong, I think the church support, United Way, etc
are great things!  It is a benefit to the local communities, but not to the
Federal Government.

> -- 
> John F. Haugh II           [  TSAKC  ]       UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
> Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151    [ DoF #17 ]            Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: EXXON EDUCATION FOUNDATION:  INTEGRATING MATH INTO REAL LIFE
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:10:22 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin


        =====  GOAL FOUR:  FIRST IN MATH & SCIENCE  =====

*2   EXXON EDUCATION FOUNDATION:  INTEGRATING MATH INTO REAL LIFE
     A revolution in mathematics is sweeping school districts
across the country.  Due to a steady decline in student math
performance in the past several decades, and consistent
outperformance by students in foreign countries, the Exxon
Education Foundation has funded and founded the K-3 Math Project
to develop "primary math specialists" (Ohanian, TEACHER).
     The revolution grew out of a 1986 National Council of
Teachers of Mathematics report, "Curriculum and Evaluation
Standards for School Mathematics."  The report revealed new goals
for math students:  "[That students] learn to value mathematics,
that they become confident in their ability to do mathematics,
that they become mathematical problem solvers, that they learn to
communicate mathematically, and that they learn to reason
mathematically."  It emphasized problem solving, comprehension
rather than memorization, the frequent use of calculators and
computers and the use of "manipulatives."
     The key to success in mathematics, according to the NCTM, is
the use of patterns.  "Patterns are everywhere.  Children who are
encouraged to look for patterns and to express them
mathematically begin to understand how mathematics applies to the
world in which they live," states standard 13 of the NCTM.
Math pundits say that math is a constructed, not acquired,
knowledge.  They state that patterns are a "powerful, unifying
force in mathematical understanding."  The secret is inductive
reasoning -- the use of math must precede theory.  Susan Ohanian,
a former teacher who is recording the work of K-3 teachers, is
optimistic about the success of this new revolution and is
"betting on teachers to do the right thing." (October 1992)


-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 -If you vote against Bush, be fair and throw out Congressional incumbents too-
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: How about reaction to Perot's first TV show?
Date: 10 Oct 92 08:33:00 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <B6iDsB3w165w@unkaphaed.UUCP>, dsterner@unkaphaed.UUCP (Don Sterner) writes:
> wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell) writes:
> 
>> Well, I watched H. Ross on his first 'paid' TV show last night, and I
> 
> Perot has complained for months that the other candidates won't talk 
> issues. That show is what he perceives to the the RIGHT way to approach 
> the public in asking for their vote - He thinks that he has isolated the 
> important issues, created proposed solutions for the problems, and is 
> ready to recommend to the public that they support him based upon those 
> facts and his background in business. And THAT has been outstanding. 

	I was reasonably impressed.  The program was low-tech, with a lot
of interesting information.  He didn't make mudslinging attacks against the
candidates, and (at least in this one) any overt declaration that he is the
only candidate that can do the job, so vote for him.

	One of the charts I like is the number government employees vs. number
of manufacturing workers.  In some strange way (to me, anyway) it is an
interesting path to socialism: the government ends up hiring everyone.
Once you're in, its almost impossible to get fired, and they always seem to
be hiring more people...

> There was no attmept in the first show to discuss all of the issues - he 
> tried to cover the high points to demonstrate the problems our country 
> faces, the extent of those problems, and the importance of facing the 
> issues NOW. Later shows will cover more specifics about how, etc. He did 
> not avoid any issues, in my opinion.

	I'll be interested in seeing his plan.  I know that someones going to
get hurt, but whose it going to hurt first:  The Fed or the taxpayers?  If
it hurts that taxpayers first, forget it.  The Fed has been taking our money
all along, and we are going to punish ourselves more for allowing it?  

> Regardless of your political leanings, the information Perot presents 
> should be VERY important to Americans. These are REAL issues that MUST be 
> dealt with.
>  
> Now, to show my bias, I'd like to remind you that the constitution 
> requires both the president and congress to cooperate in matters 
> affecting spending and legislation (except in the rare case of a 
> veto)..... It took cooperation from both Democrats and Republicans to get 
> us into this situation. Claims from either one that the other is to blame 
> are pure, unadulterated bs!

	Agreed...

> dsterner@unkaphaed.UUCP (Don Sterner)
> Unka Phaed's UUCP Thingy, (713) 943-2728 in Houston, Texas
> 1200/2400/9600/14400 v.32bis/v.42bis
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:09:20 GMT

In <21688@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>In article <1992Oct07.235351.42551@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>>
>>Number of private schools grades K-12, 1987-88
>>[source: National Center for Education Statistics, U.S. Department of
>>         Education]
>>
>>Number of schools (total): 26,836
>>Catholic:                   9,527
>>Other religious:           12,132
>>Non-sectarian:              5,177 

>Religious and associated with a church are NOT the same thing.  A school
>does not get a tax deduction simply because it has "Episcopal" or "St.
>Andrew" in the name.

True, but the data does not purport to be an enumeration of "schools
which include a religion in their name".  That makes your 'rebuttal'
somewhat disengenuous, to say the least.

>Not in the collection plate she hasn't.  That was your remark - that being
>a church funded school was a great way to indoctrinate future collection
>plate givers.

As long as the religious instruction is a required part of the
curriculum, it *IS* "a great way to indoctrinate future collection
plate givers".  That is not to say it is going to be 100% effective.
After all, guns are a great way to kill people, but not everyone who
is shot dies.  This is the problem with your kind of annecdotal
'data', what with, "Well, my wife's second-cousin's sister's boyfriend
did <X> and your general statement didn't apply," and all.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 16:51:00 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX

In article <1992Oct12.221506.12652@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>, curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806) writes:
|> Perhaps if this measly $1M had gotten through Congress for these
|> (certainly non-religious) experimental New American Schools, so we
|> could try something new for once, more private non-religious schools
|> would get some encouragement that the government is behind them.

George Bush vetoes anything that doesn't give PAROCHIAL schools a
windfall. 

|> Bush does not strike me as a zealot Christian.  I think you have zero
|> evidence for this statement.  

He is most definitely a zealot Christian.  He has made no secret of
his goal of putting prayer back into public schools.  He issues
presidential proclamations every week or so thanking God for
everything from American Independence to the fact that he wasn't
constipated that morning.  He thinks that atheists shouldn't be
considered American citizens.  He chastised the Democrats for not
putting G-O-D in their party platform.  As a private citizen, he's
entitled to his own religious views, but I resent his using his
position to impose Christianity on the government and to
officially discredit other points of view.  This is bigotry, plain and
simple.

|> School choice worked in Harlem, it can
|> work in Austin.  Our schools are a mess, we need to try it.

Don't blame Congress for that--talk to the AISD.  In fact, from what
I've heard, the Leander school district DOES allow elementary school 
choice within the district.  Since I will soon be moving into that
district, I will try to find out more about this.

|> Your comments fall right in the lap of the NEA like a gift from the
|> sky.  Don't give those assholes any more ammo.  They are against any
|> significant reform in the educational system, (except increased teacher
|> pay of course, and more administrators.)

Like any other union, they are going to protect the status quo.  You
have to convince them that this would be to their benefit if you want
to change their minds.  Good luck.

|> I don't want to see our school system 'christianized' either.  I just
|> want it fixed.  

I want it fixed too.  I'm just afraid that the "cure" will end up
being worse than the problem.  This is *education* we're talking
about.  Don't let it be controlled by the good people who brought you
the Dark Ages.

-- 
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
                "Fight the real enemy" -- Sinead O'Connor
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: How about reaction to Perot's first TV show?
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:39:48 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <B6iDsB3w165w@unkaphaed.UUCP> dsterner@unkaphaed.UUCP (Don Sterner) writes:
>Now, to show my bias, I'd like to remind you that the constitution 
>requires both the president and congress to cooperate in matters 
>affecting spending and legislation (except in the rare case of a 
>veto)

I don't seem to recall having read that section.  Could you please
tell me article and section number?
-- 
John F. Haugh II        [  TSAKC  ] | When Bill Clinton toured L.A. after the
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151 [ DoF #17 ] | riots, instead of praising law abiding
!'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh   | citizens who defended home and family, he
@'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org          | called for a ban on the tools they used.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Chinascam
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:42:51 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <XiTgsB4w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
>Like I said, Once he tried to follow up on the original story, he was 
>visited by U.S. Gov. officials.

This is a flawed assumption.  Incorrect information can be just as
dangerous to this country as the real information.  This is the same
reason that much of Tom Clancey's "Hunt for Red October" made the
spook community go nutso.  There were several serious flaws in the
novel, though it was amazingly accurate at some points.

>                                         And like i said, enough found 
>this good enough to ask for Special Prosecutor to follow up.

Many of those senators are like the Republican who dared the Democrats
to continue their investigation of the "October Surprise."  This is the
same "October Surprise" that people "found ... good enough to ask for
[ a ] Special Prosecure to follow up." and which had Bush flying to
Paris in an SR-71 ...
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 22:23:31 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX

In article <21688@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
|> Religious and associated with a church are NOT the same thing.  A school
|> does not get a tax deduction simply because it has "Episcopal" or "St.
|> Andrew" in the name.

I don't think that the Department of Education's criteria for
"religious school" is merely the name of the school, but if you have
evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to hear it.

|> >Free tuition?
|> 
|> Not in the collection plate she hasn't.  That was your remark - that being
|> a church funded school was a great way to indoctrinate future collection
|> plate givers.

That's one objective.  Obviously they're not educating children out of
the goodness of their hearts.  They're running a business like anyone
else, and should be treated like any other business.

-- 
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
                "Fight the real enemy" -- Sinead O'Connor
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Libertarian Party Houston contact?
Summary: Like to put up Marrou sign
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:01:06 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article <1992Sep30.223339.29729@cpqhou.compaq.com> thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com (Thomas Rush) writes:
>I live in Magnolia (North of Tomball) across from a polling place.
>Is there a Libertarian organization (or individual!) in the
>Houston/Tomball/Conroe area that could get me a big sign (8'x12'?
>or even bigger -- we've got lots of room to put it up!) to put
>out on the street -- something along the lines of:

>        There is a choice

>                Vote Libertarian

>           Marrou-Lord in 1992

How come they're not in the debates?

Surely they have more to say than Dan-O and Al-Baby?

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                       - Douglas Adams
  - Patrick Taylor                                       (Arthur Dent)
    Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                       "Don't let the .se fool you"
    or exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org, exu.exuptr@memo.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: BullShit
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:51:19 GMT

In <1992Oct12.201959.40174@watson.ibm.com> johniac@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:

>In article <1992Oct12.140734.16084@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
> 
>|> Oh, just by the way, John.  Jeannie (remember Jeannie, the woman you
>|> insisted that I must have made up and who you demanded a way to
>|> contact -- except that now that I gave you one, you just don't seem to
>|> quite have the stomach for it anymore?) looked around a bit and came
>|> up with the following things, which seem to pretty well refute your
>|> presentation of the foetus as a human, pain-feeling person.  This is
>|> all from _Pregnancy and Birth_ by Tracy Hotchner (and she reports that
>|> books such as _What To Expect When You're Expecting_ and _Guide To
>|> Pregnancy and Birth_ are in substantial agreement.

>I already checked _What To Expect When You're Expecting_, just because
>we happen to have that book, and it is very vague on anything having
>to do with fetal development.  It instead focuses on what happens to
>the pregnant woman at various stages of pregnancy, which is, after all,
>its stated objective.  

But she only lists that as a 'supporting source' (which to me means
there is nothing in it that contradicts the primary source).  Anyone
care to check the primary source she lists and differ with what she
said? 

[Wondering if John is scurrying for his library even as we, uh, type.
Not you, John.  The other John.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.