HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: boldtp@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (ACE-CADET)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Real Farms
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:51:46 EST

In article <1992Sep4.021727.13086@news.iastate.edu>, mpleis@iastate.edu (Cowboy) writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.184415.1@cc.uvcc.edu> coleve@cc.uvcc.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Sep3.205924.27072@news.iastate.edu>, mpleis@iastate.edu 
>>(Cowboy) writes:
>>> 
>>> Our farm this year is as follows:
>>> 2500 acres crops
>>     2500 acres * $1000/acre = $2.5 Million
> 
> 	A change is needed here land is $1500/acre
> 
>>> 90 head dairy soon to be 300+ (Reg. Jerseys)
>>     300 * $1000/head = $300,000
> 
> 	We are talking Registered cattle $1300/head
> 
>>> 4 families live and work the farm
>>     4 homes * $50,000 = $200,000
> 	4homes 2 at $20,000, 1 at $100,000 and 1 at $10,000
> 
>>     annual payroll about $200,000 including benefits?
> 	Pay? try about $20,000 per family including benefits
> 
>>> N.E. Iowa location
>>     don't forget a 1/4M$ dairy barn, tractors, implements, umm $750,000
> 	The barn new with free stalls is $800,000
> 	Implements I can't even give a price on I can gues 2.4mil but it's low
> 
>>My calculator says $3,850,000 in capitol with a $300,000 annual payroll.
>>What you have there is a factory located in a rural area -- hardly even
>>qualifies as a farm.   (Four Million Bucks!)
>>

 Ok, my calculator says $6,240.000 in capitol with an $80,000 annual payroll.

 Thats a 1.28 percent ROI over inflation.  So, why don't you sell the place
 and invest?  Why struggle along with $20K/year annual income, when your
 sitting on ($6.24M/4 = ) $1.56 Million?


Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: donb@crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen)
Subject: Re: Driveway paving questions
Distribution: or
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:11:42 GMT

	The major enemy of a road or driveway is water.  Whatever you build
will not last if you ignore water.  Design the road so the water will not
stand on or under the road.  Design so that any water over the road moves slowly
and moves completly away.  The road under pinnings should allow all water to
drain.

	We had a road into the farm that forced us to keep a car at one end
and another to get from the house whenever we had any heavy rain.  The problem
was that the road could not drain.  No matter how many roocks were dumped,
it  would turn into a bog.  It was fixed by bulding the road over a 4 ft dia
culvert.  The culvert drained the road and we had no more problems.

	DonB
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: jld@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (J. L. David)
Subject: Re: How big is an acre, Really?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:54:10 GMT
Summary: Let's go even further...


> First, linear measures:
> 
> 7.92 inches = 1 link
> 100 links = 66 feet = 1 chain
> 10 chains = 1 furlong
> 8 furlongs = 1 mile (land, aka statute, mile, not nautical)
> 3 miles = 1 league (land, not nautical)
> 
Then, there are the time measures:

60 seconds = 1 minute
60 minutes = 1 hour
24 hours = 1 day
14 days = 1 fortnight

Therefore, we can put all sorts of useful constants in the context
of these everyday terms.

For example, the speed of light is approximately 1.8*10^12 furlongs
per fortnight.  :-)

Just adding to the complete waste of bandwidth.
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: 4H vs. FFA (was Re: misc.rual.misc)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 01:12:25 GMT

In <1992Sep4.132631.1957@news.iastate.edu> mpleis@iastate.edu (Cowboy) writes:

>In article <1992Sep4.123551.9711@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep4.020439.12624@news.iastate.edu>, mpleis@iastate.edu (Cowboy) writes:
>>>In article <bill.715567658@chaos.cs.umn.edu> bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu () writes:
>>>>... do you support the 4h kids when they are trying to buy milk cows to raise?
>>>>are your kids in 4h? ffa? 
>>>
>>>I hate 4H I am a State FFA officr this year (V.P.)
>>
>>Why do you hate 4H?  Why do you think FFA is superior?  What do you think, Bill? 
>>Anyone else?

>Well this is the what's going on in my home area with it .  The 4H people are
>pissed at the FFA people because they say that the 4H kids should not have to
>show against FFA students.  

well this is a local thing, and sounds like it should be fixed.

                           >Why? Because the 4H kids usaualy have to show what
>their parents buy them, and the FFA students can purchase "show cattle" since
>general their programs are much bigger.

???? so because the ffa'er get better breeding stock and have more $$ they 
are good??? and 4h is bad? you will need to do much better than that. this
is a knock against ffa not 4h as you were after.

>                                        And the final reson is that 4H stresses
>more urban life than rural life.

no quite 4h tries to bring the small town kids into sync with the more rural kids.
you want maybe for the urbanites to all think that food comes from the grocery??
i have accually heard people say they could care less about farmers 'cause
they buy all their stuff from the store. HUH???? 
WARNING prohunting comment:
these are also the people who are really against my hunting yet have no concern
about paying someone to assasinate their food for them.
END prohunting warning.

>>
>>I'd like to hear more about both organizations since I'm only slightly aware of
>>what they're about.  I have a 10 year-old boy who might be interested in joining
>>one or both of these groups.

>Well the FFA is a leadership organization for High School students.  It is the
>largest youth oganization in the world.  If would like more info on FFA
>contact your local High Scholl Agrictural Education Depatment.

bill pociengel
--
bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu
From: bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: well's - pumps/pressure tanks
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:06:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Minnesota

In <1992Sep4.070638.23859@mr.med.ge.com> hinz@picard.med.ge.com (David Hinz Mfg 4-6987) writes:

> (bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu) wrote:
>: bill pociengel

>Bill (or is that bill),

i prefer to use the lower case letters normally, as i think it reads quieter
(yea bill nuthin to do with you bein to lazy to hit the shift key, huh?)

>Never gets cold, huh?  Maybe I should move 200 miles west and get over to
>the MN side of the border.  It gets damn nippy over here (south-central WI).

yea you should see all the hot air, uuuuh , i mean warm air masses from the 
twin cities, you know all that waste heat just warms up a big air bubble.


>Dave Hinz  -  Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.  Obviously.
>hinzd@picard.med.ge.com
       ^^^^^^
one would have thought you'd use beverlys name after examining your domain.

bill pociengel
--
bill@chaos.cs.umn.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: cole@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole)
Subject: Re: Capital Suicide (was Real Farms)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 12:41:25 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

Fletcher Kittredge replies to David W Archer:
|> 
|> >   As another poster has pointed out, many other countries do protect their
|> >   own agricultural industry, and in most cases this leads to inefficient
|> >   production.  It is quite likely that eliminating all farm programs and
|> >   agricultural trade barriers worldwide would result in higher U.S. 
|> >   production because of the relative efficiency of U.S. agriculture.
|> 
|> That would be my point wouldn't it?  So I take it you are in favor of
|> abolishing all subsidies paid to farmers.
|> 

Hmmmmmm.  Let's consider all subsidies, not just direct payment.  SBA disaster
loans are a form of subsidy.  Government-back insurance of all types is a
subsidy, pure and simple.  For that matter, the Dept. of Defense is little
more than welfare now that the Cold War is over.  Airports are generally
subsidized.  Not to mention roads and highways.  Air mail kept many airlines
in business when they were getting started.  The artificially low prices we
pay for gasoline is subsidy for suburban builders (if gas were $2.50/gallon
would any of us choose to commute 25+ miles roundtrip?).  We could go on and
point out how every program helps some segment of the economy at the cost to
some other segment, but that wouldn't be very productive.

The point to be made here is that the family farmer isn't looking for the 
government to do much more than put rational plans in place.  Let me earn a
living in peace.  Let me plan more than a season away.  Believe me, most of
us don't want our uncle looking over our shoulder.

/Bill
Who's land is it?
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr))
Subject: Re: Capital Suicide (a resolution?)
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:03:03 GMT

cole@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole) writes:
: Perry Morrison (Dr) replies to Cowboy's description of his family's farm:

: |> If I had $1 million to spend/invest, I know it wouldn't be in a few
: |> thousand acres of head-ache. (I have a 7 acre headache and that's
: |> enough).
: 
: I think you miss the point of farming, Perry.  There may, in deed, be more
: 'astute' places to invest some large amount of money and certainly easier
: ways to make a living.  Many small business are in business just to stay in
: business and the ROI doesn't mean a thing, nor does the growth of capital.
: 
: As for me, and my family, we'd rather walk through land of our own than
: push buttons for somebody else.

Well, as the source of this thread, I'd like to "reserve" the opportunity to 
resolve it if possible. I entirely agree with these and other sentiments 
expressed in this thread---but i think I poorly expressed some of my original
points.

I'm not against farming per se (who could be?). I'm against large scale
multi-million dollar or capital intensive farms. Not only is it often
environmentally damaging (where I lived the farmers regarded the soil as
something that happened to hold the superphosphate) but it doesn't even
make economic sense in terms of return on investment. 

In my own case, I would dearly love to farm for all the moral and
personal reasons raised by many posters. I believe it's healthy, gives
kids a balanced approach to life (as long as it's not slave labour and
there is stimulation from other aspects of your life) and spiritually
developing. 

The kind of farming i plan to do (as soon as I have made some dough
here) is raising trout and growing fruit on an organic basis. That
doesn't require a huge amount of money and whatever else I have left
over will be invested in more financially lucrative (but less personally
satisfying) investments.

However, IF i had $1 million there is no way i would put it into a
farming proposition. With that kind of money i would be forced into the
same destructive practices used by many of the farmers in my area
simply to make some kind of living and preserve the huge capital base. I 
think large numbers of small, efficient farms can be just as lucrative as 
equivalent sized behemoth farms if their produce is valued in the marketplace 
for being clean, free of residues and FRESH. I'm hoping that there will be a 
strong market in my area for large, fresh trout that HAVEN'T been raised on 
chicken pellets and dogfood.

I earnestly believe that in the next 10 or 20 years, pollution problems
in most of the developed world will become so bad that people will pay
almost anything to have food they know is free of contaminants.
Unfortunately, that means that the poor (as always) will lose out. 

Happy farming.

perry morrison

Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.kids
From: kaufman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman)
Subject: Re: How big is an acre, Really?
Reply-To: kaufman@CS.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:04:18 GMT

xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory) writes:

>In article <HOLLEN.92Sep9152210@peg.megatek.UUCP> hollen@megatek.UUCP (Dion Hollenbeck) writes:
>>1) What is the exterior dimension of an acre?
>Roughly 200 ft by 200 ft. It's 4200 sq ft I think.

Ok to there, but 200x200 = 40,000, not 4200.
An Acre is 160 square rods, 4,800 square yards, or 43,560 square feet.
A square area enclosing an acre is about 208' 8 1/2" on a side.
A circle enclosing an acre has a diameter of about 235' 6".
There are 640 acres in a square mile.

>>2) How many square feet in an acre?
>Oh. See above.

>>3) How many acres in a plot 1/4 mile x 1/4 mile?
>Well, a mile is 5280 sq ft, so 1/4 mi is 1320 ft, or about 6 200 fts.
>So I'd say 6x6=36. Since one of your exact answers was 40, I'd say
>the answer is 40.

1/4 mile square is 1320x1320 = 1,742,400 square feet, or 40 acres.

>>I know I could work this out on a calculator but I have done it MANY
>>different times and gotten a different answer nearly every time, that
>>I no longer trust myself to be logical about it.

>This is why I've crossposted to misc.kids, where we're discussing
>whether estimating should be taught before 5 digit arithmetic.
>This was all done in my head.

Dear Kate:  Next time use a calculator.

>Kate
-- 
Marc Kaufman (kaufman@CS.Stanford.EDU)
From: jheath@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Capital Suicide (was Real Farms)
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:08:20 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

From article <FKITTRED.92Sep11084526@spchp11.BBN.COM>, by fkittred@spchp11.BBN.COM (Fletcher Kittredge):
> In article <1992Sep10.132611@IASTATE.EDU> darcher@IASTATE.EDU (David W Archer) writes:
> 
>    Path: news.bbn.com!seismo!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!darcher
>    From: darcher@IASTATE.EDU (David W Archer)
>    Newsgroups: misc.rural
>    Date: 10 Sep 92 18:26:11 GMT
>    References: <1992Sep4.175146.8815@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> <FKITTRED.92Sep10134034@spchp11.BBN.COM>
>    Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
>    Reply-To: darcher@IASTATE.EDU (David W Archer)
>    Organization: Iowa State University
>    Lines: 35
> 
> 
>>   As another poster has pointed out, many other countries do protect their
>>   own agricultural industry, and in most cases this leads to inefficient
>>   production.  It is quite likely that eliminating all farm programs and
>>   agricultural trade barriers worldwide would result in higher U.S. 
>>   production because of the relative efficiency of U.S. agriculture.
> 
> That would be my point wouldn't it?  So I take it you are in favor of
> abolishing all subsidies paid to farmers.
>

Does anyone have any figures about how much food would cost if
there were no subsidies?  How about how much the subsidies cost
the "average" family vs. how much food would go up without the
subsidies? 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: cole@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole)
Subject: Re: Capital Suicide (was Real Farms)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 12:36:59 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

Perry Morrison (Dr) replies to Cowboy's description of his family's farm:

|> :  Ok, my calculator says $6,240.000 in capitol with an $80,000 annual payroll.
|> : 
|> :  Thats a 1.28 percent ROI over inflation.  So, why don't you sell the place
|> :  and invest?  Why struggle along with $20K/year annual income, when your
|> :  sitting on ($6.24M/4 = ) $1.56 Million?
|> 
|> A very astute comment. I have been to many farm clearance sales and
|> watched machinery sold for almost nothing. I've seen 50 or 60 years of
|> work and history go down the toilet. Jeez I remember going to one that
|> had the world's oldest chain saws for sale (like 6 feet long with a
|> truck engine on one end (almost)). The dogs were sold and then the kennels
|> right after.
|> 
|> What I'm trying to say is that a lot of BIG farming IMHO is capital
|> suicide--you'd be better off investing in real estate, shares or whatever
|> and growing your vegetables, chickens etc on a small patch that is
|> manageable and FUN (instead of a failing business proposition). The
|> other point is that a lot of truly competitive, commercial farming
|> demands non-sustainable and down right environmentally reckless
|> farming practices. I say this because large acreage and reasonable
|> profitability (for a lot of people) mean farming without regard for the 
|> next 30 years. If you flog your land to death in the short term you will 
|> out-compete those who don't.
|> 
|> If I had $1 million to spend/invest, I know it wouldn't be in a few
|> thousand acres of head-ache. (I have a 7 acre headache and that's
|> enough).

I think you miss the point of farming, Perry.  There may, in deed, be more
'astute' places to invest some large amount of money and certainly easier
ways to make a living.  Many small business are in business just to stay in
business and the ROI doesn't mean a thing, nor does the growth of capital.

As for me, and my family, we'd rather walk through land of our own than
push buttons for somebody else.

/Bill
To do right, love kindness & walk humbly
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: bobw@csg.uwaterloo.ca (Bob Wildfong)
Subject: Re: Capital Suicide (was Real Farms)
Organization: Computer Systems Group, University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:58:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.123659.23270@dg-rtp.dg.com> cole@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole) writes:
>
>I think you miss the point of farming, Perry.  There may, in deed, be more
>'astute' places to invest some large amount of money and certainly easier
>ways to make a living.  Many small business are in business just to stay in
>business and the ROI doesn't mean a thing, nor does the growth of capital.
>
>As for me, and my family, we'd rather walk through land of our own than
>push buttons for somebody else.
>
>/Bill
>To do right, love kindness & walk humbly

I agree, and would like to add to this by dropping into historical mode:

100 years ago, most people had much more appreciation and respect for
agriculture than they do now.  About 80% (at least in my area) of the
population (and therefore 80% of the politicians and economists) came
from a rural background.

I believe that it is very dangerous for our society to look at farming as
merely another business enterprise and food as merely another commodity.
If the computer software biz went belly up, I'd be out of a job but life
would go on.  Without a stable agricultural base, and good decisions made 
at the governmental and corporate level, our whole civilization would
be in danger of expiring.

Sadly, it seems all too possible.

Bob Wildfong                                       bobw@csg.uwaterloo.ca
Waterloo, Ontario                                  bobw@csg.waterloo.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>

Newsgroups: misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural

> 
> In <122980015@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
> 
> >> While oil is cheap....we should be making Ethanol production more feasable 
> 
> >I've posted this before, so this will be quick...
> >Environmental experts (quoted in Time, etc) have concluded that burning
> >Ethanol instead of Oil is *worse* for the environment by a large factor.
> >The amount of fresh water used, pesticides, fermentation gases, etc.
> >cause more damage overall.
> 
> hmmmm. ok riddle me this. what does not use pesticides, contains fermintation
> gases, and does not waste water??
> 
> ok?
> 
> organic farming. so what if i loose some crop to bugs or...[lots deleted]

HUH?  WHAT?  I was making a comment on the overall benefits/drawbacks of
burning petroleum products verses ethanol in engines.  Are you trying to say
that organic farming will produce ethanol without these drawbacks?


> last but not least, i prefer to get most of my real scientific information
> from those who do it. not those who write about someone who wrote about
> someone, who knew someone, who thought they'd heard about it from their
> brothers wife's cousin :-) it is amazing how much information is available
> that you and i have already paid for. 

Absolutely.  You don't have to believe me.  Go to your local library and 
look it up.  When you subscribe to a news-group, you have to sort out the 
garbage from the jewels.  If you don't like this, don't read it.  Don't 
bother whining about it.

> ps no i'm not an Environmental experts (tm) just a joat (ok gene, here it is:
> Jack
> Of
> All
> Trades
> ^

Oh my God!  Capital letters!  He does have a "Shift" key!

John

Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney)
Subject: Re: How big is an acre, Really?
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:51:55 GMT

(Dion Hollenbeck) writes:
>I have looked up the acre to square mile conversion factor (1 acre is
>.0015625 acre)

Usually, we use the historic "1 acre is .0015625 Sq Mi" in Indiana. 
The acre to acre conversions just don't work well.

>and am trying to figure out how many acres in a square
>1/4 mile on a side, but every time I do, the figure does not seem
>right.  One way of figuring it out gives me 40 acres, while another
>says that there are 640 acres in a square mile, which means that the
>1/4 x 1/4 mile would be 160 acres.  So, could someone please answer
>the following questions:
>
>1) What is the exterior dimension of an acre?

A square about 209 feet on a side.  Here are the calculations:

1 mile = 5280 feet
1 square mile = 5280 x 5280 = 27878400 square feet
1 square mile = 640 acres
27878400 sq ft / 640 acres = 43560 sq ft / acre

To find out the size of an acre of ground that is square, just take the
square root of 43560.  The answer is 208.7 feet.

>2) How many square feet in an acre?

See above.

>3) How many acres in a plot 1/4 mile x 1/4 mile?

In the first paragraph, you point out that you think a plot 1/4 mile x
1/4 mile is 1/4 of a square mile.  Get out a piece of paper and a ruler
and draw this.  You'll find that 1/4 mile x 1/4 mile is 1/16 sq mile.
Simply do the multiplication.  Therefore, your plot of land is 40 acres, or
a square 1320 feet on a side.  You can check this by multiplying the
square root of 40 by the length of a square acre (6.32 x 208.7).

>I know I could work this out on a calculator but I have done it MANY
>different times and gotten a different answer nearly every time, that
>I no longer trust myself to be logical about it.

Obviously, we'd all be better off using Metric stuff.  NOT!

	Darrin
-- 

mdchaney@iubacs mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu mdchaney@rose.ucs.indiana.edu

"It's a marvel of vegetable containment..."
Xref: sparky misc.rural:2061 misc.kids:23030
From: mnb@voodoo.boeing.com (Mike Burr)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.kids
Subject: Re: How big is an acre, Really?
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:12:19 GMT
Followup-To: misc.rural
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA

In article <5bhx024m21XB01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> lmn00@thundercd.amdahl.com (Linda Newell) writes:
>I'm not sure if this is funny or not, but if a mile is 5280 feet, a
>square mile is 5280*5280 square feet or 27878400 square feet.  1/4
>square mile is 6969600 square feet.  If one acre is .0015625 square 
>miles, than 1/4 square mile is .25/.0015625 acres or 160 acres, which
>makes sense since 640 acres is a square mile.
>Linda

Linda,

Your calculations are correct, but I think you misunderstood the question.
The original question was "How many acres in a square plot of land 1/4 mile
on each side.  THIS IS NOT 1/4 SQUARE MILE.  Rather it is 1/16th square
miles.  Ie. .25 mi X .25 mi = .0625 mi^2.  The correct answer is 40 acres.


-- 
Michael Burr   mnb@voodoo.boeing.com  | Boeing Computer Services, Bellevue WA
Newsgroups: misc.rural