From: nyu
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:08:32 GMT

In article 8eWCTpi00WB2M1B0g2@andrew.cmu.edu, re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
> Seth writes:
> Third, the issue isn't Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, it is the
> mechanized persecution and massacre of civilian populations.
> No matter which side is doing it, it must be stopped.  Sure
> we should have sympathy for the Serbs, they behaved better
> than most Slavs in the Second War, but does that mean we should
> turn our backs on their current behavior?  Just because Croats
> and Muslims are targetted?  I'd hate to see what you would say
> if Germans were on the receiving end.
> 
> 
> I say:
> Of course, Seth, attrocities against civilians, regardless of
> their origin, is what the issue is and what should stir the
> indignation and mobilize for action.
> Nevertheless, even your posting seems to suggest that civilians
> targeted are only (or mostly) Croats and Muslims.  This is,
> unfortunately, the image the media portrays.

It is not a situation of the media creating this impression.
The UN notes that civilians of all ethnic backgrounds are
being targeted. They also note that the largest and most systematic
program of targeting (and in my opinion, most vicious) is by the
Serbian "irregulars" in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who are being supplied
with their heavy artillery by the Serbian government.
There are Serbs, Croats and Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina who
desired to set up their own government, separate from the rabid
nationalism of that "former" communist Sloban. Serbian fascists
stirred up fears of a Muslim state. They're still fighting the
Ottoman Empire!!!! They can't forget they lost in the 12th(?) century
to the Turks. That more than any thing drives Serbians in their
actions in Bosnia-Herzegovina.


> Facts that are significant for our understanding of the complex
> situation there are mentioned only in passing and do not allow
> an unqualified listener to draw helpful conclusion.  They're
> merely hints for those who know the history of the region and
> even for them they do not clarify more.
> I will mention two such facts, that appeared as less than a minute
> clips on CNN, some time during the last few months.
> First, it was mentioned that former Yugoslavia had much better
> legislation rgarding minorities than do any of the new states.
> The new states are nationalistic in character and neither of them
> has the outlook of a country with the democratic principles we
> cherish here, in the US.  The clip mentioned that in Bosnia and
> in Croatia sale of real estate and other major items (including
> some consumer goods) is prohibited by the new legislation if the
> buyer is a "foreigner" (ie not Muslem or not Croat, respectively).

No. Not (ie not Muslem(sic)), not Bosnian-Herzegovinian.


> This new type of legislation is not new at all and when it comes
> to "ethnical cleansing" history shows it is one of the first steps
> - look at our own history, Seth).  If this was a reason enough for
> Serbs in those areas to oppose militarily we can't decide about.

The Serbs are not opposing. That implies a defensive posture. The Serbs
are the aggressors, attempting to take all the best land to create
their "Greater Serbia", a notion that Sloban has been selling since
Tito died.


> Nevertheless, Serbs also had the history of what happened to them
> in WWII to come and haunt them.
> The second clip was that of tens of thousands of Serbs, in Belgrade,
> protesting the Serbian government's military intervention.  While
> for some this might not tell much, it is a striking contrast to the
> exclusively nationalistic mitings in Croatia.
> Again, I'm not justifying the crimes committed by Bosnian or Croatian
> Serbs against civilians, but a one-sided attitude is the last thing
> we need in the current situation.  *All sides* must be taught how to
> compromise and to control their nationalistic feelings and if we use
> the Serbs in Bosnia as a scapegoat we're only teaching the other
> parties that what they are doing is all right (and it's not).

The Serbs in Bosnia are not being scapegoated. They are the primary
aggressors and the most violent element in this conflict. It is
they who are driving it forward, and they who must be stopped.

> As a Jew, I am firm in my conviction that no support should we
> give Croatia.  While I agree that we should help in rescuing
> Croatian civilians from potential Serbian attrocities, I do so
> relctantly.
> The ultranationalism of Croatians resembles that during WWII and I
> can only be happy when hearing news that there is a very small
> Jewish community there.  I know that you'll always find people to
> get along with, in any group, and the Jews in Croatia most probably
> did.  My opinion though is that a larger Jewish population would
> have to suffer terribly.  The desire of the Croatians to reconciliate
> with a tainted past is much outshadowed by their revisionist attitude.
> There is no sign that they are doing anything to prevent the
> revival of antisemitism in Croatia.
> The last time Croatia was an independent state (kind of), was when
> its fascist were supporting the German military and genocidal efforts.
> As I mentioned, it is an irony that the one European state that
> mobilized the other after itself being the first to recognize Croatia,
> was the new, united Germany.  At least for the eyes of the world it
> should have been somebody else.
> 
> Rad

I understand your feelings towards Croatia. As I have said before,
I harbor very strong doubts about the Croatian government and their
revisionist attempts at dealing with their history. I'm not supporting
them. I am thinking about the civilians, in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
Croatia who the Serbian government have targeted.


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