From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:	100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Distribution: world
Date: 17 Dec 92 08:41:31 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

In article <1992Dec16.225920.23111@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:
>Matthew Dillon writes
>
>>     Furthermore, The EISA bus specification has no problem with
>>     all elements required for a workstation... DMA, vectored
>>     interrupts, etc...  Since I'm not familar with how much of the
>>     specification has been implemented, I can't remark on existing
>>     EISA machines, but I don't see the problem with EISA.  (ISA,
>>     on the otherhand, has huge problems with DMA).
>
>Current EISA cards tend not to be able to run at the speeds required.
>Also, the 16bit wide bus limitation is pretty severe.	(Are there
>32 bit versions available yet?)

    Main memory is not on the EISA (or ISA) bus and hasn't been for years.
    Video is not even on the bus anymore.

    The only thing that's happenning on the bus, in fact, is I/O, and
    considering the fact that the NeXT is generally memory-bound I/O is not
    really a problem.  Our (admittedly high end) PCs get 3MB/sec through
    the filesystem, about 3 times what a NeXTStation get.

    That is no slow, and shows that the bus design is not a limiting
    factor.

>
>>     Dell Dimension 486DX2/50    $2700
>>	...
>>     SVGA Total price:    ----------> $3200 <----
>
>Good price, slow display.  How much more for the Dell with DGX?
>Ethernet is a requirement for most of the sites where NS486 will
>go.

    I am not debating how slow the display is, that isn't the point... the
    point is, it is "fast enough" for most consumers and most business.

    Most consumers will not care about networking, therefore ethernet is
    optional.  Besides, ethernet cards are about $100 for the PC (presuming
    NeXT had drivers for them).

>>     Hyundai 433S	price:	    $2000
>>	486SX/33
>
>486SX won't do.  Things will choke without the full DX floating
>point support.

    Probably right, I concede the point.

>
>>     Accel local-bus winstation      $1800 (486SX/25)  $2100 for
>>     486DX/33)
>>	15" SVGA non-interlaced color monitor
>>	 32 bit VESA Standard local-bus video
>>	 211MB HD, IDE 256K cache 8MB main memory
>>	1.2/1.4MB floppy
>
>>	  ----------------> $2350 (486DX2/66) <------ (damn fast)
>
>With another 8Meg memory, and ethernet card, and a bigger monitor,
>this machine would actually be useable.  (a 33MHz/486 isn't even
>as fast as an old ColorStation's 040.)
>..


>Though still not comprable to a NeXT ColorStation.  How much do
>these prices go up when I get a decent keyboard (another $140
>about?) a good mouse (about $100) and a good Sony tube monitor
>(haven't priced 'em recently).

    That system is plenty usable as is... perhaps you or I would expand the
    system, but it's fine for joe average consumer and joe average business
    and that, as I have said about half a dozen times, is what will drive
    the market, not your nitpicking about keyboards and monitors and making
    it *exactly* as capable as a NeXTStation.  15" monitors are common in
    the PC marketplace, even 17" is common, and cheap (on the order of
    $350-$550 and included in most PC packages these days).  Compare that
    to what a NeXT monitor costs.

>Since the price comparison was for something as capable as the NeXT
>ColorStation, you'd need a Dell DGX with a 50MHz 486, ethernet,
>1028x768x16 local video, and a 32 bit 25MHz bus of some kind, SCSI,
>and a good 19" monitor.

    If you insist on getting the most expensive PC you can find and decking
    it out with the most expensive hardware you can find, huge monitors,
    etc, etc, etc, then of course the price will compare favorably with the
    NeXT.

    But most people aren't you.  Most consumers and small business will be
    perfectly happy with somewhat slower machines, somewhat smaller
    monitors, somewhat less memory, and the result will be that they will
    be able to buy 3 whole systems for the price of one of your
    monstrosities.

>Restricting the configurations is necessary to get the thing out
>the door in 93.  It's already dangerously late.  Every month delayed
>is another month deeper in the shadows of MicroSoft's NT marketing
>juggernaut.  It doesn't make much sense to make NS486 run on
>everything if by the time you do your potential number of sales
>has dropped to near zero.

    This is definitely debatable... it's time verses compatibility.
    Over-restricting the configuration will take NeXT right out of the
    marketplace.  For example, if NeXT decides to not support IDE (the
    majority of PC's use IDE) or if NeXT decides to require an ethernet
    board or if NeXT decides to require a custom NeXT board or decides to
    support only XVGA (they *must* support SVGA at a minimum). BIG
    mistakes, those would be.  If NeXT restricts the configuration so much
    that a NS486 capable system will cost too much money (and I am deathly
    afraid they will do just that so they can 'justify' their own hardware
    line'), all the marketting in the world will not save them and Windows
    NT will win by default.

				    -Matt

>...
>build their bases, but NT will "fall" onto machines under threat
>of death (or blackballing by MicroSoft, whichever is worse).
>
>Yeah, I want NS486 out on as many 486s as possible.  But I take
>possible to mean sales, not availability.
>
>--
>Scott Byer				NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
>Adobe Systems Incorporated		  These are *my* opinions, and
>1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900	    do not necessarily reflect
>Mountain View, CA 94039-7900		  the opinions of my employer.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------

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