HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bkgray@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Brian Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on Eagle Court of Honor
Date: 4 Oct 92 16:16:03 GMT
Organization: Kent State University

In article <1992Oct4.034859.6533@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Brian.K.Sward@dartmouth.edu (Brian K. Sward) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.122544.9529@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
>ldg@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (lawrence.d.goldsmith) writes:
>
>> We have always held an Eagle Court in conjunction with a standard Troop
>> Court of Honor that we hold 3 times per year and on our normal meeting
>> night. 

>I personally feel that this is very wrong.  To have a boy spend his
>entire scouting career working towrds his Eagle, and then have it
>presented during a "special part" of a regular court of honor is
>absurd.  

I tend to agree that an Eagle Court of Honor ought to be an event separate
from a troop Court of Honor, but that's just my own opinion.  As a
District Advancement Committee Chairman, I attend most of the Courts of
Honor in my District.  Some are part or a troop C of H, while others are
a separate event.  It has as much to do with troop tradition than
anything else.

>  Try and rethink your policy from the boy's point of view. 
>The youth should not have to share "His Day" with anyone else unless he
>wants to.

What a Scout wants to do will be influenced by what he has seen happen
in his troop before.  If every Eagle Scout in the past five years has
had a C of H on Sunday afternoon, the Scout may be very disappointed if
his award is not presented in the same way.  On the other hand, a C of H
last year to present two Eagle awards was held as part of the troop's
regular February family C of H.  The Scouts were given several options
(including (1) holding a separate event and (2) conducting the troop C
of H in the church's Fellowship Hall (the "normal" place), and then
moving to the sanctuary for the Eagle C of H).  They were adamant in
their decision to hold it as part of the regular C of H, beacuse that's
the way it had always been done.

The Scout's wishes should be honored if at all possible.




-- 
*************************************************************************
* 				Brian Gray				*
* 			924 Allen Drive, Kent, Ohio 44240		*
*	Seneca District, Great Trail Council BSA, Marnoc Lodge #151	*
From: bschroeder@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: OA
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:46:03 GMT
 <1992Oct4.001049.9156@wuecl.wustl.edu> <1992Oct5.204813.8960@wam.umd.edu> <1992Oct6.023035.20477@wuecl.wustl.edu>
Organization: Wright State University

In article <1992Oct6.023035.20477@wuecl.wustl.edu>, gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon) writes:
>    The way that Shawn Scoles mentioned elections being held was the exact same
> way in which the two somewhat "rigged" elections were held.  In both cases, the
> elections were run by non-troop members.
> 
>    In the case of my election, my ASM hinted strongly that the scouts should
> vote for his friend.
> 
>    In the case of the election, I ran, the SM of the troop came right out
> and said that people should vote for him.
> 
>    I agree that these elections are totally against the concepts of Scouting and
> the OA, but I must ask what is an election team member supposed to do ?
> 
>    In both cases, the team stressed that it was up to the scouts to choose and 
> that the vote would be secret.  But, it is impossible to prevent a Scoutmaster
> from saying what he wants, and if you try, there is a chance that the SM
> could simply ask you to leave.

	If I held an election where the scoutmaster tried to rig it, he
wouldn't have to ASK me to leave.

						Brian
						bschroeder@desire.wright.edu
 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: peteg@std.mentorg.com (Peter Galambos SST-C2139)
Subject: Seeking advice on Eagle Court of Honor
Originator: peteg@sun_archiel
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 22:37:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corporation; Beaverton, Oregon
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

(Sorry if this is a repeat.  It didn't seem to go out the first time.)

My son has passed his Eagle Board and we're starting to think about
the Court of Honor and have a lot of questions.  I'm hoping some
of you who have been through this can offer some advice:

1) I've seen references to 'Woods Wisdom: Troop Program Features' in
   regard to planning Courts of Honor.  Is this worth looking at?
2) Is it advisable to send out RSVP type invitations or are informal
   invitations OK?
3) How long of a ceremony should be planned?  What seems to be the best
   time (Saturday, Sunday, afternoon, evening)?
4) What type of food/refreshments should be provided?
5) Any advice on advance publicity?
6) Any advice on format of the ceremony (what to include, what to
   avoid, sequencing)?
7) Any other interesting experiences/comments/ideas?

Pete Galambos  peteg@std.mentorg.com
Committee Chairman, Troop 670  Columbia Pacific Council

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum)
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Reply-To: rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Boeing Computer Support Services
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:45:20 GMT

Recruiting adults has always been a problem.

I have been at Cub Scouting (USA) for about 8 years.  On thing I found was
that it is necessary to recruit adults first.  Sell the program on what it brings
to the adult and family, emphasize the joy of parental involvement, and run a
program that brings in the entire family.

Our Cub meetings had something for all the family, even if it was watching the
Cubmaster try to convince a 2-year old toddler to draw JUST ONE ticket from the
hat--that was a tough one.  Or, try turning Momma upside down to pin on a 
tenderfoot badge 'cause the kid had just had surgery--we did that too.

Recruitment pitches and plans should be set toward the adults--the kids
follow wether they want to or not.  

If the parents view BSA as baby-sitters of America, then you don't need them,
and their kid suffers.  

Recruit every parent to do something--even if it is just help set up chairs in
advance of the meeting.  Be Darn sure you praise them when they help--a 25 cent
cardboard certificate is worth hours of help and a lot of pride.

Drag 'em in, get them involved, and you may even have trouble getting them
to leave when their kid graduates---

It ain't easy, but I was able to find good leaders for a 75-100 kid pack for
onto 8 years.  As far as I know they are still going strong--I had to move out
of the area.

Recruit, train, equip, and KEEP recruiting--otherwise you get a 3 - 4 year up
and down cycle as parents arrive, graduate, and leave.  Every chance you get,
hold the School night for Scouting--EVERY year.

--rich (Still active-1 Eagle son, 2 to go)
---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinions are my own, and my employer (Boeing Computer Support Services)
 denies any responsibility for me, all opinions in general, and anything 
 I may say, do, or be otherwise associated with outside of work for them.
 -- Use at your own risk, your mileage may vary, no news is good news."

 E-MAIL REPLY TO:  rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov     PLEASE KEEP IT "G" RATED
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Subject: Re: OA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 23:02:29 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

jsgoldma@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeremy Goldman) writes:
> Greetings:
> I am a current Life Scout from Troop 18 in Baltimore, MD.  We are a unique
> Jewish Troop that are relatively new, and I am one of the first joining
> members.  I would like to explain my expiriences on my OA ordeal.

I can't express how sorry I am to hear how badly your ordeal went.  The
word "Alangamat" means "friend".  Clearly your Alangamat did not know what
it means to be a friend.

> This weekend really bothers me, because I expected the best if the best
> kids to be in OA, but I learned differently.  As a 14 year old scout, I

I was also a 14 year old scout at my ordeal over 20 years ago in North Dakota.
My experience with the OA at that time, while not as bad as yours, was not
good.  I dropped out after one year.  I joined the OA lodge in Colorado Springs
(387 Ha-Kin-Skay-A-Ki) as an adult upon the recommendation of other adult
members.  I think this lodge comes very close to the high ideals of the Order
of the Arrow.  When my own son went through his ordeal a year ago, he found
it to be an uplifting experience.  Don't give up on Scouting or the OA because
of the bad example of some members.

> know that OA elections are much more a popularity contest, than meaningful
> elections.  What are your feelings on this event?
> 

Elections are supposed to be conducted at the troop by members of the OA.
They are supposed to explain what the OA is and what the election criteria
are.  I have been a Scouter in Troop 62 for 6 years and have always felt
that the boys did a good job of selecting candidates based on the election
criteria and not on popularity.  I should add that since the main criteria is
"showing a commitment to unselfish service to others", these boys are usually
at least somewhat popular because of the helpful and friendly attitude they
generally have.  In our troop it is typical to have 12 boys elegible of which
3 are elected.

Now that you have completed your ordeal you are eligible to purchase the
OA Handbook (our lodge gives them to the new Arrowmen at the end of the
ordeal weekend).  Read what it has to say about what the OA should be and
don't accept anything less from anyone.  You have already taken the positive
step of pointing out problems to the OA leaders.  Don't stop there, be active,
be an outstanding example in your troop and your lodge and expect the same
of every Arrowman.

>    WWW,
>    Jeremy Goldman
>    Troop 18 --> Owings Mills, JCC i
> 

Yours in Brotherhood,

Dan Kary
kary@col.hp.com
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:37:10 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis) writes:

[...]
>The BSA's "any religion is good" philosophy is a laudable attempt to
>remove the far nastier "my religion is the one true religion, so I'm
>better than you and don't have to respect you" attitude fostered by
>many churches.
[...]

This may be what the BSA is attempting, but I don't think the ends
justify the means.

The reason to tolerate other religions is not because they are right,
good, or better than nothing, but because by tolerating the religious
(and even irreligious) belief of others we increase the chances that
our beliefs will be tolerated. Tolerance of others' beliefs is also
important for those of us who believe freedom of conscience.

In other words, I don't respect everyone's religion, God/gods,
prophet(s), and philosophy, but I do respect everyone's right to
believe and disbelieve what they wish. The BSA in contrast, seems to
respect everyone's religion (even though many are contradictory), but
not everyone's right to believe and disbelieve what they wish.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3286 alt.discrimination:4503 chi.general:1190 alt.atheism:18200 alt.politics.homosexuality:6284
From: sbrack@jupiter (Steven S. Brack)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:34:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: uoft02.1992Sep29.193443.10240
Reply-To: sbrack@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
: In article <1992Sep25.053134.8487@CS.ORST.EDU> johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:
: 
: - This is the type of strength I have been talking about.  To be able
: - to talk the abuse of other people and still decide that tour own
: - life is more important.  I commend your friend for his strength.
:  
: While I agree with your commendation of his friend, I have a big
: problem with your stance.  You say that each individual makes that
: decision in the end.  But with kids (and teen-agers ARE kids...I've
: read books by psychologists that say adolescence goes to age 26!),
: things are different.  You are not mature at the teen-age level.  You
: should not be expected to be as responsible for your actions as an
: adult.  You have a different and worse set of expectations and changes
: being imposed upon you than you have later in life.  

	Such sweeping generalizations!  When I was 16, I was more mature &
	more capable of making "adult" decisions than some of the clods 
	society has decided to call adults. 
: 
: The important adults (parents, teachers, minister/priests) have a
: responsibility NOT to take actions that will cause kids to hate
: themselves.  Nurturing is the job of a parent, not instilling
: self-hate.

	I couldn't agree with you more.  I would, however, like to expand
	that to include nurturing young peoples' confidence in themselves
	as seperate individuals, and respecting the fundamental human rights
	of all people, regardless of any other factor, such as age, ethnicity,
	gender, or sexual orientation. 

--
Steven S. Brack        | B0 w+f s+k+c+v a!v |   sbrack@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu
2021 Roanwood Drive    \____________________/  STU0061@uoft01.utoledo.edu
Toledo, OH  43613-1605 /                    \    brack@uoftcse.cse.utoledo.edu 
+1 419 GR4 1010        |  MY OWN  OPINIONS  |   sbrack@maine.cse.utoledo.edu
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU (Dennis J. Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:45:11 GMT


I've got to give some credit to the particpants in this thread;
with only an occasional exception, it hasn't degenerated into
futile flaming (as a few others which I'm sure I have no need
to mention). Time for my $0.02.

I decided to check out my good ol' (but not as good as the last
edition good ol') Scoutmaster's Handbook to see what it had to
say regarding the Religious Medals program. Some highlights -

"... Scouting is, of course, a nonsectarian movement. It is 
identified with no particular faith, encourages no particular
affiliation, nor assumes functions of religious bodies. Hence
it is important that you understand that the religious 
emblems program ... IS A PROGRAM OF RELIGIOUS BODIES AND NOT
OF SCOUTING..." (my emphasis)

"It is appropriate for you to encourage Scouts who are
interested to work for and earn the religious emblem for
their particular faith. There is no connection between 
religious emblems and the advancement program..."

(fr. Scoutmaster's Handbook, 1991 printing, p 222-223)

The first statement is quite self-explanatory, I would think.
I myself might ask the question as to whether these awards
can be presented to a non-Scout in any respective religion...

As for the second statement: that reads to me that it is
APPROPRIATE, not MANDATORY. It would seem to me that if 
Scouting is really tolerant of any set of religious beliefs
(the null set not being taken into consideration, but let's 
not get into that again,please), then it has to respect the
Scout leader whose "valid" religious beliefs would preclude
him/her from promoting another faith. Of course, it
also seems to me that it would be rather silly not  to 
at least recognize that the boy has gone out and accomplished
something on his own...





----------------------------------------------------
Dennis J. Wilkinson, II  (pnsf01dw@umassd.edu)
University of Massachusetts Dartmouth - Design/CS Project

The opinions reflected in this post are MINE!!!! ALL MINE!!!!!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jgcombs@uceng.UC.EDU (Joseph Combs)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Seeking advice on Eagle Court of Honor
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:03:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Cincinnati, Engineering College

In article <1992Oct01.223720.19526@news.mentorg.com> peteg@std.mentorg.com (Peter Galambos SST-C2139) writes:

>1) I've seen references to 'Woods Wisdom: Troop Program Features' in
>   regard to planning Courts of Honor.  Is this worth looking at?
>2) Is it advisable to send out RSVP type invitations or are informal
>   invitations OK?
>3) How long of a ceremony should be planned?  What seems to be the best
>   time (Saturday, Sunday, afternoon, evening)?
>4) What type of food/refreshments should be provided?
>5) Any advice on advance publicity?
>6) Any advice on format of the ceremony (what to include, what to
>   avoid, sequencing)?
>7) Any other interesting experiences/comments/ideas?

I haven't been an assistant scoutmaster for too long so I really can't help
with 'Woods Wisdom' or any other publication regarding Eagle Courts of Honor.

For my Court of Honor we sent out RSVP style invitations we purchased through 
the local Scout center. Printing of both the invitation and the program was 
taken care of by one of our scout's fathers, who owns his own printsetting 
company so the entire thing looked very impressive.

My ceremony lasted approx. 1 hour.  We held it on a Friday evening following 
our troop's regular Court of Honor.  We sent out two invitations.  One to
our Troop's parents, leaders, etc. inviting them to our annual Court of Honor
to be immediately followed by the presentation of my Eagle award and another 
to my friends, co-workers, etc. who had no interest in the advancements of the 
other boys in our troop.  We set the beginning of my COH at 2.5 hrs after the 
start of the regular COH to allow time for dinner and our awards presentation/
year-in review slide show.  The tough part was keeping the troop COH on 
schedule since we had to be finished before the other guests began to arrive 
for my COH.

Since we had 150+ people at my ceremony we had pop/coffee/tea and ordered two
sheet cakes from a bakery decorated with my name the date and the Eagle badge.

As far as publicity we waited till after the ceremony to put an announcement 
in the parish newsletter .  Our council took care of the newspapers by having
me fill out a questionaire and paying for a photographer to get a portrait of
me in uniform so they could send out a press release.

We began my ceremony with a slide show of my progress over the past eight 
years.  If you have the pictures its a perfect way to set the mood.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Combs  jgcombs@uceng.uc.edu    |                                       |
| ASM Troop 24, Dan Beard Council    |    "Verbosity leads to unclear,       |
| Cincinnati, Ohio                   |      inarticulate things."            |
| Eagle Class of 1990                |            -Vice President Dan Quayle |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 06:45:29 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

[...]
>If Mr. Stevens cannot accept the reality that Christianity is but one
>OPINION of God's relationship with mankind, and not THE opinion or
>THE Word, it can seriously affect his ability to work with boys who
>do not share his religious beliefs, and thus his ability to serve as
>a Cub Scout leader.

To many, those who follow other religions are no better than atheists
and may be as bad as Satanists.

[...]
>In closing: Mr. Stevens, now that you are a youth group leader,
>I strongly suggest you learn to show a little tolerance toward
>those who do not share your religious beliefs.

.... unless they have no religious belief.

>  If you want to
>believe that the freelance preacher Joshua (commonly known
>by the Greek translation "Jesus") is the Messiah, that is your
>right and privilege, but it does NOT give you the right to
>downgrade or treat with contempt other religious beliefs that
>boys in your Den or Pack might have.

... but you may and should exclude from your Den or Pack those boys
that have no religious belief.

>The religious beliefs of those boys are just as legitimate, and just
>as real, as yours, and as a Scout leader, you have the OBLIGATION to
>respect their beliefs and to encourage them, as circumstances arise,
>to continue their religious and spiritual growth.  I also hope that
>you never, at Scout camp, encourage or force a Jewish boy to attend a
>Christian service.  Besides the emotional harm it could do to the
>boy, it could also open you, your unit, your council, and BSA to
>legal action for mental child abuse.  -- Stan Krieger All opinions,
>advice, or suggestions, even UNIX System Laboratories if related to
>my employment, are my own.  Summit, NJ smk@usl.com

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:57:33 GMT

anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:

[...]
> But Todd, while you may be uncomfortable with these beliefs, they are just
>as valid as yours, [...]
[...]

If by "valid" you mean "true", then very few people would agree with
you. Most of us believe that our beliefs about religion are truer than
the beliefs of others.

>Just because your religion says Jesus Christ is mankinds Lord and
>Savior does not mean that it is true.
[...]

I'd bet that Todd thinks it does.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: cupak@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (John J Cupak Jr CCP)
Subject: Re: Knots on boys uniforms   
Reply-To: cupak@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (John J Cupak Jr CCP)
Organization: Lockheed Sanders, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 13:04:16 GMT



The October, 1989 issue of Scouting carries an excellent article on page 50+ entitled "The BSA's Know Awards" by Ernest Doclar, and illustrates the 29 knots in color.

            W B                  John Cupak 
           (O O)                 Troop 410 
          /{ v }\                ASM for New Scouts
         //{   }\\          
      \/____H_V_____\/
      /\    S R     /\
\ \ \/  \ NE-I-155 /  \/ / /     I used to be an Owl....

--
John J. Cupak, Jr., CCP       Lockheed DECNet: MERVAX::CUPAK
Lockheed Sanders, Inc.        Internet       : cupak@rapnet.sanders.LOCKHEED.COM
144 DW Highway / MER24-1K23   CompuServe     : 72411,3176 
Nashua, NH 03061-0868         Telephone      : (603) 885-5816     FAX: 885-9512
Newsgroups: rec.scouting