HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Bantustans (was Re: Campus Fascists)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:42:29 GMT

In <ccdw.716121026@kudu> ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson) writes:

>This also applies to all the criticism that
>has been heaped on the ANC since the events of the last few days in
>Ciskei - the fact is Ciskei was set up and is ruled by a minority
>government inspired dictator.  Let's put our energies into righting that
>wrong.

The fact is that Transkei and Venda were set up and are ruled by minority
government inspired dictators as well.  The difference is that their
dictators are big chums with the ANC so there isn't this overwhelming
desire to use mass action to topple their particular "governments". 

Is anybody going to right those wrongs?  Doubt it.  And until somebody in
the ANC starts making noises about Transkei and Venda, I'll have to take
their abhorrence of Bantustans with a pinch of salt and a huge dose of
cynicism.

-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 05 Sep 92 17:00 PDT
Subject: Re: From Africa-L
Nf-ID: #R:1992Aug31.185329.21853@newshost.:10058787:cdp:1471700101:000:212
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep  5 17:00:00 1992


I'm beginning to think John Sneed is right about this.  Encourage the
African "Willie Hortons" and then go running around breathless denouncing
them and makng Africa look like a continent full of Willie Hortons.
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:13:37 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

heidi@ucthpx.uct.ac.za (Heidi de Wet) writes:
: poam@giraffe.ru.ac.za (AK MARQUARD) writes:
: >This seems to be a tendency at UCT, or is it just 
: >confined to the maths and philosophy departments? Does "Gavan" think 
: 
: I'll make a bargain with you.  You don't characterise the whole of
: UCT by Gavan Tredoux and Hardy Hulley, and we won't characterise
: the whole of Rhodes by Wayne Humphreys.  Deal?

Ooh. I have a more attractive offer. If you don't characterize
UCT by Heidi and other alpine engineering friends 
(with silly signatures) then I won't characterize Rhodes by YOU. 
 
Not that any body gives a ****, anyway - just thought you should know.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT
From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
Subject: Re: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:34:31 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:

> mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> [ .... ]
> and whose argument is open to scrutiny. But then neither Scott nor Mark
> have even bothered to read the stuff -or if they have they've chosen
> to ignore its content and concentrate on the character of the authors instead.

WARNING: Gavan is now starting to echo.  
  
> : If you read the following interview with John Kane-Berman you will see 
> : that he is as slippery, but more sophisticated that GAVAN:
> 
> The technique reveals itself again. Kane-Berman is "slippery" and
> "sophisticated", ie. not to be trusted because of defective character.
> No attempt to provide any argument. 
> 
> The Nats did this all the time. Whenever faced with a telling argument
> they'd simply claim the arguer was a communist, and not to be trusted.

Oh please!  I listed an interview with Kane-Berman which I think speaks
for itself.  I personally think he's slippery because when asked about
state responsibility for violence he moves on to the "but its also
coming from the other side" tack.  I did not give a detailed analysis
of his interview because I also thought others could assess it FOR
THEMSELVES.  I was NOT trying to warn the succeptable that they
could be corrupted by the impure Kane-Berman!  Perhaps GAVAN thinks
along those lines.  Perhaps that's why GAVAN responds to EVERY person 
who lodges an opinion that is different to his.

When I said he is sophisticated, I meant it as a kind of compliment.
I meant that (IMO) he is more sophisticated than GAVAN, (is that a
compliment? :-))  and I do respect his analysis quite a bit more
than GAVAN'S, because it appears more "balanced" (in this interview).
I use the term balanced with reservation because there is still the 
problem of applying equal portions of blame in the name of a "balanced"
approach.  This is apposed to identifying primary, secondary, etc causes
and responsibilities for violence.  The first is an attempt to dilute
the blame of those primarily responsible, the second identifies clear
responsibilities of each (and every) party in ending the causes of 
violence.

Mark Ramsden
From: gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit)
Subject: Re: white south african culture
Reply-To: gds@cs.uct.ac.za
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 07:26:44 GMT

yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:

>g91h7029@alpha.ru.ac.za (Wayne Humphries) writes:
>>Only a small
>>percentage [of blacks] have fully assimmilated the culture of the white.

>which is fortunate, because so much of white south african culture 
>is repugnant to every civilized human being.

I know victor was responding to Wayne (whose name is best kept in a kill 
file), and it is therefore probably a reflex kind of reply. However, since 
I am a white south african, and I am being told that so much of "my" (??)
culture is repugnant to every civilized human being, I just want to make
sure what we are talking about here.

So, what exactly did you include in your "so much of", victor?  And how 
much (say as a percentage) of "white south african culture"  do think 
that is?

Please do not see this as a flame or an implied statement that there are
no repugnant aspects of white south african culture.  I am just curious
about your perception of white south african culture.
-- 
Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mbanane)
Subject: UPI: UN team arrives in South Africa
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:59:09 GMT



	JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (UPI) -- An advanced group of 18 U.N.
monitors arrived in South Africa Sunday to help end politically
motivated violence which has claimed more than 6,000 lives since
February 1990.
	Group leader Ismat Steiner told the South African Press Association
his delegation's main purpose was to observe developments in the country
and assist existing structures in ending the cycle of violence.
	He said the group's first task would be to establish contact with all
involved parties and make arrangements for the arrival of a further 32
U.N. monitors, including Jamaican Angela King who will head the complete
U.N. team.
	The U.N. Security Council August 17 authorized U.N. Secretary-General
Boutros Ghali to deploy the U.N. monitoring team in South Africa after
listening to recommendations by former U.S. Secretary of State Cyrus
Vance, who visited South Africa in July on a fact-finding mission.
	The U.N. team is expected to be joined by 15 European Community
observers following a meeting in England Sunday by EC foreign ministers
to discuss recommendations by British Foreign Minister Douglas Hurd that
the EC send observers to South Africa.
	Hurd, accompanied by Portugal's secretary of state for cooperation
Jose Barroso and Denmark's Foreign Minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen,
visited South Africa on a two-day fact-finding mission at the beginning
of September.
	The EC is also expected to send five representatives with police
backgrounds to join the task force of the Goldstone Commission.
	The Goldstone Commission, which has the respect of all major
political parties, was appointed last year by President Frederik de
Klerk to investigate violence and intimidation after South African
political parties and trade unions signed a peace accord in September.
	Steiner said the U.N. monitors would also be working with the
Commission, lead by Judge Richard Goldstone, but did not elaborate.
	Goldstone announced Saturday his commission would investigate
Monday's massacre of African National Congress supporters in the
nominally independent black homeland of Ciskei.
	Ciskei soldiers fired into a crowd of 20,000 ANC supporters, killing
28 and wounding another 196 as they marched on the Ciskei's capital
Bisho to demand the resignation of the homeland's military leader Brig.
Oupa Gqozo.
	Following the massacre, the ANC agreed to meet de Klerk in talks on
ways to curb violence in the country, provided the talks were designed
to produce concrete results and were preceded by practical steps by the
government to end the violence.
	The ANC withdrew June 23 from multi-party pro-democracy talks,
accusing the government of complicity in politically motivated violence.
Pretoria has denied the charges.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,apc.reg.safrica,sanet.talk.politics
From: zozo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Fundi Mbangi)
Subject: Re: Bantustans (was Re: Campus Fascists)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 17:44:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.154229.2872@hippo.ru.ac.za> ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes:
>
>The fact is that Transkei and Venda were set up and are ruled by minority
>government inspired dictators as well.  The difference is that their
>dictators are big chums with the ANC so there isn't this overwhelming
>desire to use mass action to topple their particular "governments". 

I think we all agree that Bantustan dictators were/are supported by the
minority govt. But you must realize the big difference between Bantu Holomisa
in Transkei, and his Ciskei counter-part, Oupa Gqozo. Holomisa has stated his
intention to have T/kei re-incorporated into S.A. And unlike Mangophe and other
Gqozos (or Bozos, if you will), he allowed free political activity in T/kei
even before de Klerk's unbanning of all political organizations. An act which
put him at odds with Pik Botha & Co. Who in S.A. hasn't heard of numerous 
attempts by the Pretoria govt. to remove Holomisa?
>
>-- 
>  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
>  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
>  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E

---
Fundisile Mbangi
From: wnljam01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,apc.reg.safrica,sanet.talk.politics
Subject: Re: Campus Fascists
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:17:33 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Sep2.183359.27797@cs.ubc.ca>, shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
> gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
>>Freedom of speech at South African universities has long been
>>under fire. In most cases, it's all but disappeared, except
>>on the net. 
> [followed by gory description in which Gavan really enjoys the
> recounting. Aha -- take that -- this puts me in the moral 
> highground]
> 
> 
>>This throws interesting light on the controversy surrounding the
>>violence between the ANC and Inkatha. Here is a clearcut case of the
>>ANC and its motley following initiating violence. And it *is* violence,
>>similar to rape.
> 
> Such behaviour is clearly unacceptable and should be condemned
> unequivocally.
> 
> Your analogy though is bizarre (to say the least). "...similar
> to rape..." : perhaps you could explain this to the slow thinkers
> on the net. 
> 
> 
I don't believe there has ever been freedom of speech at certain university's
in S.A. - certainly not at U.C.T or Wits!  Last week SASCO made a mega-noise
because of an INKATHA speaker being invited onto the campus - they suggested
the trashing of the meeting!  Interesting parley for "freedom of speech"
advocates.  I wonder if the ANC and their puppets know what those words mean?!
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Email for Zimbabwe?
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:53:09 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

Can any one give me an email address for Zimbabwe? Please write to my
address not the net. 

Thanks in advance

Andy

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: SOMALIA: As if hunger is not bad enough...
Keywords: Toxic-Waste
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Distribution: soc.culture.african
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 02:41:26 GMT

Excerpts from the AP:

   U.N. Warns Of Toxic-Waste Dumping   
     In Somalia As U.S. Sends Aid      
                 ---
    NAIROBI, Kenya - The U.N.
environment chief said Italian
companies plan to profit from Somalia's
chaos by shipping toxic waste there,
according to a report Sunday.
    The move further threatens health
in the devastated nation.
 [..............]
    The claims involving toxic waste by
Mostafa Tolba, head of the
Nairobi-based U.N. Environmental
Program, were reported in the
English-language Sunday Nation
newspaper and confirmed by an aide.
    Tolba said Italian companies are
building two incinerators to be
installed in Somalia that would handle
at least two 550,000-ton shipments of
toxic waste next year for an estimated
profit of $4 million to $6 million.
    Tolba said that to protect his
sources he wouldn't identify the
Italian companies or say where they
planned to ship the waste.
    The Italian companies are taking
advantage of Somalia's lack of
government and general instability,
said Tolba.
    Tolba reportedly made his remarks
during an address Friday at the
International Center for Research in
Agroforestry.
    Tolba said the dumping could
aggravate the destruction of Somalia's
ecosystem and threaten further loss of
life in the ravaged nation, where tens
if not hundreds of thousands already
have died from the combined effects of
drought and warfare.
    It wasn't possible to get comment
from Tolba, whose office wouldn't
release his home telephone number.
    Italian government officials in
Rome also weren't immediately available
for comment.
[............]

-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet         
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp           
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4604 soc.culture.filipino:3238 soc.culture.taiwan:12966 soc.culture.hongkong:10537 soc.culture.indian:30549 soc.culture.vietnamese:13189
From: barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us (Mr Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: Re: Racism in soc.culture.african
Originator: barnhart@gagme
Organization: Evanston, Illinois
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:37:44 GMT

This is in reply to sl0n5@cc.usu.edu, who wrote:
:Why is there this racial hatred?  Men and women were created as just
:that--men and women; not black, white, yellow, or brown.  There needs
:to be one way of looking at people--on the inside.  What we have 
:outside was a circumstance beyond our control; what we have inside
:can be something very beautiful.
:
:I don't understand the reasons behind the person (people) who are
:posting the terrible words and ideas.  I won't place a value
:judgement on them because that would take me to their level, but
:it hurts me to see what is happening.
:
:Denice Wroe
:Utah State University

Boy, *there's* the question of the year, right?  It seems part of
the trouble arises from this group being a convenient discussion
zone for South Africans, rather than the more appropriate channel,
which would be something local like za.politics.

That's not to generally say SAs and their views must be quarantined
(they've sort of been doing that in recent years), but that s.c.african
*does* seem to attract a disproportionate share of repulsive and
ignorant views compared with wider Usenet.

On the other hand, maybe the globalization that Usenet is providing
for SAs signals an end to the peculiar social and intellectual 
isolation of some in the white minority.  Maybe we should look on
s.c.african as providing a vehicle for the exposure and dying out
of those primitive and isolated views.

Maybe there should be a FAQ that simply reads, "Have a strong
stomach."


-- 
Mr. Aaron Barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us -- posting from Evanston, Illinois
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:01 PDT
Subject: POINTER:
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1471700117:000:374
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep 12 20:01:00 1992


jnr has posted several messages in hunger.general which have a good deal
of information about Somalia--recent difficulties in delivering food--
how the peacekeeping Pakistanis are still not there because of "unspecified
logistic difficulties" and so on.  

Most striking is that all the stories agree that the required 60,000 tons
of food a month is *not* reaching Somalia.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: philip@ziggy.stanford.edu (Philip Machanick)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Expression
Reply-To: philip@ziggy.stanford.edu (Philip Machanick)
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:10:43 GMT

In article <20213@plains.NoDak.edu> varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)  
writes:
> Who knows?  You may be superstitious, and not know it. 8^)

I for one am a capricorn and capricorns are not superstitious.
--
Philip Machanick
philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: "Ed Robertson" <edrbtsn@bigeye.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Somalia waste scandal - Greenpeace
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 11:30:36 -0500

+-Concerning Somalia watse scandal - Greenpeace, Dorothy Morse said:
| Rome,  9  September  1992 ----  Greenpeace  today  revealed  that 
| the Italian company PROGRESSO s.r.l.

Does anyone know whether they are related to the prepared foods company
of the same name?  I like their soups, but if they're involved in this
Somalia thing I'ld gag if I tried to eat any.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za (Dave Wilson)
Subject: Re: A question for ANC supporters (re: Bisho)
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:28:59 GMT

In <1992Sep14.115604.17596@hippo.ru.ac.za> ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes:

>In <nicolson.35@odie.ee.wits.ac.za> nicolson@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (James Nicolson) writes:

>>Without the help of hindsight, it would have required a great deal of 
>>cynacism on the part of the local activists to believe that what they were 
>>doing did not have a strong chance of succeeding. Hindsight, however, shows 
>>that they were desperately wrong.

>Hindsight has nothing to do with it.  Well before the event, just about
>everyone in sight was telling them they were playing with fire - if you
>have an unstable, threatened dictator on the receiving end of mass
>action, the consequences are easy enough to predict.  Not to excuse, but
>to predict.

So, are you saying that the marchers should have backed down and
cancelled the march (assuming that would have been possible, given the
tempers of the preceding weeks)?  As someone said in another message,
the march would probably have gone ahead anyway, with or without ANC
support.  Far better to have at least some control over the proceedings
by crowd marshalls, etc.       

I do not believe anyone who now claims that they "knew" the kind of
situation that took place would occur before it happened, ie. that
soldiers would, without warning, deliberately murder some marchers.
Many other ways could have been used to deal with the situation:
tear-gas, warning shots, rubber bullets, etc.  None of these was used.
Sure, ANC leaders took a calculated risk which didn't pay off - some now
say that the possible costs of taking that risk were too high and that
it shouldn't have been taken.  In my opinion, the (pre-massacre)
perceived risk was outweighed by the cost of being forced to back down
by Gqozo.

Instead of the sustained ANC bashing now taking place, there should be
even more reason for this petty dictator to be removed from office
forthwith.

>>I think of all the people involved the ANC is the most shocked. It seems 
>>that ANC activists are the only large group which feels the true shock and 
>>despair at what happened.

>That's unfair.  Large numbers of people were and are shocked.  Unless
>what you're trying to say is that ANC supporters are especially shocked
>for two reasons (1) because mass action didn't work, and (2) their
>supporters got killed.  Many other people are shocked because people
>got killed in a predictable and possibly avoidable confrontation.

Mass action often doesn't work - take the recent stayaways, which
haven't really had much effect on anything.  Furthermore, ANC supporters
are being killed every day - the difference in this case was so many
people saw it as an opportunity to apportion blame.

--
Dave Wilson                               Computing Centre  
ccdw@kudu.ru.ac.za                        Rhodes University
27-461-22023                              Grahamstown, South Africa
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: Of De Klerk and Ciskei
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:17:02 GMT

So the South African government wants to assume control of the Ciskei
security forces? And what will they do with them, considering the fact
that there is extreme suspicion that the de Klerk government fails to
control elements of its own security forces? Are they just trying to 
assume control so they will have more geeks at their disposal to let 
loose on the "povo"?

--

lk(with the man with the yellow hat)
              Hamba Ine, Adada cha!
From: dmorse@igc.apc.org (Dorothy Morse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: SOMALIA: As if hunger is not bad en
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:24:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:Bu6st2.7D8@usenet.ucs.indiana.ed:882961268:cdp:1471700111:000:690
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Sep 11 17:24:00 1992


The fax number for the Swiss Mission to the UN is 212-751-2104.

Those faxing to protest the dumping of toxic wastes can also request
that Switzerland contribute aid to Somalia, in the form of money
to finance World Food Progam food purchases, or aircraft to fly food,
or any other constructive aid.

When faxing, you can also note on the bottom of your fax that you
are sending a carbon copy to some important media outlet.  Fax numbers
for these are posted in Media Contacts, which I believe is posted in this
conference.

In this way, not only do the Swiss know you've protested, but they know
the New York Times, or the Washington Post, or the Los Angeles Times knows
you've protested.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 22:03:17 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
: I listed an interview with Kane-Berman which I think speaks
: for itself.  I personally think he's slippery because when asked about
: state responsibility for violence he moves on to the "but its also
: coming from the other side" tack. 
.. 
: When I said he is sophisticated, I meant it as a kind of compliment.
: I meant that (IMO) he is more sophisticated than GAVAN, (is that a
: compliment? :-))  and I do respect his analysis quite a bit more
: than GAVAN'S, because it appears more "balanced" (in this interview).

Still waiting for some attempt to even grasp the gist of the SAIRR
argument. As for MARK'S (yes, capitals!) taste, well there's no 
accounting for it is there?

Gavan Tredoux
UCT