HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geer@world.std.com (Dan Geer)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Lotus as a public charity
Keywords: zoning,public.policy,taxes,subsidy
Date: 8 Sep 92 02:40:14 GMT
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die



My name is Dan Geer, and I am the Co-Chair of the coalition of all
neighborhood associations in Cambridge, Mass.  I am soliciting your
thoughtful commentary on Lotus Development Corp.

The occasion is that Lotus is engaged in the the modern kind of
corporate blackmail - "Give us a huge whopping tax break or we'll move
out of town".  In addition, Lotus seeks abrogation of Cambridge's
zoning ordinance with respect to bulk, density and open space
requirements, so as to build a new, fortress-like headquarters building
on land otherwise reserved for affordable housing.  Lotus also seeks
nullification of the ordinance limiting the size and kind of signage on
buildings.  Lotus makes none of these claims itself, preferring to
speak through its developer (Boston Properties).

I need to cast some doubt on the desirability of Lotus as the object of
such governmental largess.  One line of reasoning I am pursuing is that
Lotus' idea of how substantial its competitive disadvantages are must
be reviewed in light of its intellectual property stance.  Another is
to question whether this subsidy ($800,000 per year for 15 years, plus
the regulatory and housing costs) is, in fact, a sufficient and fair
exchange to ensure that Lotus will remain a taxpayer and important
employer in Cambridge.  That Lotus is, for all its financial success,
still largely a one-trick pony is another angle possibly worth pursuing
as we evaluate the long term viability of this company.

As you may guess, the City Council is singly and collectively eager to
be thought of as "pro-business" and views this as a purely political
equation relating purely to their own reelection 16 months hence.  We
of the neighborhood associations view the control of developmental
pressures and the precendent setting nature of this proposed deal with
mortal dread.

I hope and imagine that there are other computing professionals who
might wish to provide statements to the Council indicating, say, that
Lotus may not be a viable company in its present configuration for long
or that its posture on innovation and intellectual property are
distinctly at odds with community standards.

We very much need your assistance.  Hardcopy letters addressed to the
Cambridge City Council but sent to me at the address below are the
potentially best, but they must be sent immediately.  Next best are
email messages that you would permit me to render on paper.  Telephone
calls and private email are also very welcome.  Confidences will be
observed when requested.

I must have this in hand by Monday the 14th of September at noon.  I
shall reply to all who ask with what the outcome of this episode is.

Thanks in advance.  If you want more details, ask.

--dan

formalities:
		Dan Geer, Co-Chair
		Cambridge Citizens for Liveable Neighborhoods
		P.O. Box 19
		Cambridge, Massachusetts 02238

		Email:     geer@world.std.com
		Telephone: +1 617 367 2010
		FAX:       +1 617 367 6131
		Residence: +1 617 492 2129
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: What is a bank?
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:17:00 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

In article <2678@mitech.com> gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
>What is a Bank?
>
>Getting your MasterCard from AT&T, to double as a phone card.
>
>Getting your MasterCard from General Motors?

After the Great Depression, Congress passed a number of laws aimed at
boosting confidence in the banking industry and isolating it from all
other enterprises.  Despite the depression-like economic conditions of
the past couple of years, there has been an accelerating trend toward
unifying banking with commerce.

Are we doomed to relearn the lessons of the Depression, the hard way?

-rich
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Privacy and POS (Re: Speaking of ATMs)
Date: 13 Sep 92 21:21:56 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:
>Now, for strange reasons, it has become acceptable to let any information
>become public and available, and place the burden on the consumer or
>general public to take action to prevent the possible unapproved use...
> who knows how far and wide that information has spread, and in what other
>forms it has evolved that we have no control over.  And, as shown above,
>sometimes it can be used without our even knowing it, so the avenues
>provided would potentially be avenues of no recourse. 

You said it better than I can.  Technology has leapfrogged past these
companies' abilities to put it to current use.  But the technology is in
place today, and future applications will make themselves obvious once
enough data has been logged.  Generally, those applications will be used
to _screen out_ undesirable customers rather than to _target_ desirable
ones.

>There must be legislation and common convention to change this point of
>view, and place the burden on those desiring to use that information to
>get the permission of the consumer for both the content and usage of that
>information.

The _Globe_ ran a bizarre editorial on a related topic a few months ago.
Owing to this proliferation of databases, usually indexed on Social
Security Numbers, the paper called for the creation of a national ID card
along with regulations on the use of information tied to this ID number.
Odd, I thought.  (Reprehensible, too.)

>Privacy is freedom. It's basic to our way of life, and our assurance to
>keep it that way.

Amen.  This is something on which liberals and conservatives can agree.
Unfortunately, it's awfully hard to maintain vigilance against the totali-
tarian element which pushes these abuses of technology.

-rich
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 15:58:04 GMT
Organization: Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

In article <1992Sep11.045739.6224@random.ccs.northeastern.edu>, alansar@ccs.northeastern.edu (Mohammad Al-Ansari) writes:

|> Yes, there are machines baring signs saying BAYBANK everywhere, but you get
|> charged (or at least I do) $0.75 for using many of them! Since I knew that
|> last month, I've been considering switching banks since this was the main
|> reason I chose BayBank.

The only machines that should charge you $0.75 are the ones labelled
"XPress-24 CASH".   Usually you'll see these only in retail establishments
like supermarkets and convenience stores.

The regular BayBank X-Press 24 machines found in bank branches,
T stations, storefronts, by-the-road booths, shopping malls, etc.
don't charge this fee.

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: 5 Sep 1992 07:06:24 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gandalf.think.com

In article <6173@transfer.stratus.com> savoia@sw.stratus.com (Rick Savoia) writes:
>If it wasn't for the fact
>that they are everywhere (including an ATM in my building)
>I'd probably go with someone else.   

I've been with BayBank for 13 years.  I've got a BayPlus account, Xpress
Checking (which forced me to get Reserve Credit), several CD's and IRA's,
and a safe deposit box.  With all these combinations I don't get hit with
any fees as long as I used BayBank-owned ATMs.  I've always known that they
were sleazebags, but I've always kept enough money in the bank so that the
loopholes applied.  But now I'm switching.  Not because of anything they
did (I made the decision before they announced this latest fee, and it
wouldn't affect me anyway), but because my company joined a credit union.

DIRECT Federal Credit Union is on Cirrus, NYCE, Yankee 24, and Xpress 24 --
all the same networks as BayBank.  So long as I have my paycheck deposited
directly into my credit union account, they waive all ATM fees.  So the one
advantage of BayBank no longer exists.

So my suggestion to you is to try to find another financial institution
that doesn't charge excessively for network ATM access (someone else posted
about a bank that allows three free foreign ATM accesses a month --
depending on your usage pattern, that may be reasonable).
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
Newsgroups: ne.general
From: jclander@texas.mitre.org (Julian C. Lander)
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Reply-To: jclander@mitre.org (Julian C. Lander)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:55:14 GMT

I still haven't closed my BayBank account (I lived in Somerville until
June), and I got the letter about the $10 fee for reserve credit, too. I think
that you need to call before midnight tomorrow (9/15) to cancel; remember to
do that.

When I lived in the Boston area, I used ATMs all the time.  Availability was
one of the reasons I went to BayBank.  I had been at Bank of Boston, but they
closed the nearest office, and it became a nuisance.

I have check-cashing privileges here at work, so I can get money just by going
down the hall (and remembering to take a check from home).  Consequently, I 
almost never use my ATM card.  (My bank here is CRESTAR, which is BayBank-like
in that it has lots of ATMs.  I also get three free transactions each month
at foreign ATMs, so I could use ATMs on vacation last week, too.)

Julian C. Lander
jclander@mitre.org
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:41:19 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

mguyott@eriador.prime.com (M. Guyott) writes:
> But until someone else can give me universal access to my money
>(at least in MA) then I feel like I have to stay with BayBanks.

The banking industry sure did sell us a bill of goods, didn't they?

For centuries, people managed to get by without the "universal access
to money" represented by worldwide ATM networks.  Fifteen years ago, the
industry began an earnest campaign to convince people they *need* this
network, and the campaign seems to have worked extremely well.  People
are willing to shell out $1 every time they go get $20 out of a magic
money machine (MMM).  Indeed, I read somewhere that the average ATM
withdrawal amount is _thirty dollars_!  (My own amount is $300, never
less, so as to keep the number of transactions low.  My average balance
is not a whole lot higher than that, it just takes a bit of discipline.)

Somehow, people think the MMM will act as their conscience and get them
to _spend less_ by doling out money in smaller amounts.  This is hard for
me to fathom, but it's the argument made by most of those folks who take
out tiny amounts several times per week.

Cash in the wallet seems to me all the access to money I need, aside from
the ability to pay bills and cash my paycheck.  Who needs all this
"service" the banking industry offers?

-rich
Newsgroups: osf.junk,ne.general
From: oaf@serverx.osf.org (Oded Feingold)
Subject: Texts for "Madness of Crowds"
Summary: for those who want light reading...
Keywords: aggression anthropology panic plague scapegoats witchcraft...
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Distribution: ne
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:32:38 GMT

In response to a posted request, here is a list of the texts:

Cannetti, Elias:		CROWDS AND POWER
Kindleberger, Charles P:	MANIAS, PANICS, AND FINANCIAL CRASHES
Mackay, Charles:		EXTRAORDINARY POPULAR DELUSIONS and the
					MADNESS OF CROWDS
Milgram, Stanley:		OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY
Sowell, Robert:			CONFLICT OF VISIONS

Also, newspaper, magazine and journal items are handed out in class.

The instructor is sending me a syllabus.  I should be able to mail
(not post, this is getting excessive) copies in a couple of days.

Oded Feingold  oaf@osf.org     Contractor at  Open Software Foundation
OSF:   11 Cambridge Center     Cambridge,  Ma. 02142    (617) 621-7265
Home:  408 Broadway            Somerville, Ma. 02145    (617) 776-1225
From: schin@acs.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Need a good laptop repair person in Boston
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:10:48 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Hello

My Bondwell 386sx is fucked up. The hard drive is screwy and the adaptor
blew a fuse. Does anyone know of a good laptop repair person in the 
Boston area?

thanks in advance 
Neil Schier
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Usenet Network..
Date: 16 Sep 92 02:46:09 GMT
Organization: The World


>There are about 1500 worldwide newsgroups.

World.std.com has 3558 as of this moment.

--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: 13 Sep 92 21:02:12 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

Here's one of my old stories from Baybank, dating back to a time not long
after I left the employment of DEC.  The scenario:  I had a stock certifi-
cate for 24 shares of DEC, and wanted to cash them out.  I had done this
a year earlier at Baybank without any grief.

	Me:  Hi, I'd like to sell these shares of DEC.
	They:  Please see our brokerage person in the back.
	  <shuffle shuffle>
	Me:  Hi, can you handle this stock transaction for me?
	They:  OK, fill out these forms.
	  <fill fill>
	They:  Could I have your brokerage account number?
	Me:  No, I don't have one; I only want to do this once.
	They:  You have to have a brokerage account.  Please fill
	  out this other form.
	  <fill fill>
	They:  Could I have your _checking_ account number?
	Me:  I only have a _savings_ account here.
	They:  You have to have a _checking_ account to open a _brokerage_
	  account.  Please fill out this form.
	Me:  You mean to tell me I have to have _three_ accounts for you
	  to sell this one silly stock certificate?
	They:  Yes...
	Me:  That's ridiculous!  I'll take my business where it's wanted!
	  <drive impatiently to the Schwab office in Burlington, where
	  they're fast and polite>

-rich
Newsgroups: ne.general
From: rita@eff.org (Rita Marie Rouvalis)
Subject: BayBucks
Originator: rita@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Distribution: ne
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:37:26 GMT


	Well, I've taken the concerns expressed here about BayBanks
and passed them on to a Vice President of BayBanks Middlesex.  Not
names or anything, just a summary of the complaints.  He is going to
take them up at an upcoming meeting with his higher-ups.  I'll let the
group know what I hear back.

	Don't you just love the net?  Never know *who* is out there.

	

-- 
Rita Marie Rouvalis              rita@eff.org 
Electronic Frontier Foundation   | Brown eggs are local eggs,
155 Second Street                | and local eggs are fresh!
Cambridge, MA 02141 617-864-0665 |
From: navsaria@bass.bu.edu (Dipesh Navsaria)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:24:17 GMT
Reply-To: navsaria@bass.bu.edu (Dipesh Navsaria)
Followup-To: ne.general
Organization: Boston University


   Does anyone know of a good bank in the Boston University area?  I use
direct deposit right now, and I want to avoid many of these dume BayBank fees.
A few "foreign" ATM withdrawals for free would be nice...

   Thanks!

						Dipesh
						(navsaria@pub.bu.edu)

Newsgroups: ne.general
From: GeraldR@sunfish.ratsys.com (Gerald Ruderman)
Subject: Re: Madness of Crowds (is your crowd mad?)
Summary: A Moby Course at Harvard Extension School
Keywords: aggression anthropology panic plague scapegoats witchcraft
Organization: Rational Systems, Inc.
Distribution: ne
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:05:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.201248.24366@osf.org> oaf@serverx.osf.org (Oded Feingold) writes:

>Harvard Extension School starts Monday, September 21.  There's a
>course I'll recommend to anyone interested in how the world works...
>                                 ----
>                  PSYC E-1556  THE MADNESS OF CROWDS
>              Mondays, 7:30-9:30 P.M., Emerson Hall 108
> William Henry Anderson, MD, Lecturer on Psychiatry, Harvard Medical
>    School.  4 units.  Noncredit $200, undergraduate credit $305,
>                        graduate credit $815.
>                                 ----

Sounds great, but no way I can take it. What were the texts?

Gerald Ruderman                                   geraldr@ratsys.com
From: kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: BayBank
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:41:51 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

I called BayBank to get the scoop on ExpressCheck.  After being on
hold for about 15 minutes, I got someone that sounded somewhat 'slow'
but was able to answer most of questions.

My biggest consern was what happens if you lose your card.  (If you
get ExpressCheck, your regular BayBank card is replaces with a BayBank
card with MasterCard logo on it).  My worry was that unlike a credit
card where you are billed charges (and thus can dispute them before
you pay them), a lost ExpressCheck card would allow someone to charge
stuff on your account and the money would be withdrawn from your
account before you could do anything about it.  Some of the info
I got is:

	The most you can charge on ExpressCheck a day is $500.

	You don't need to know the PIN (password) to use the
	ExpressCheck card.

	Using ExpressCheck does not instantly electronicly 
	debit your checking account.  The slip gets sent into
	the MasterCard company that processes it manual just
	like all other charges.  It takes a least a few days
	for the debit to appear.  (I didn't ask but I would
	guess that they do freeze the amount charge in your
	account so you can charge something and then take
	the money to cover it out.  Again, just my guess
	but that kind of happeds when they autherize a
	credit card in that the freeze a portion of your 
	credit limit when they get autherization)

	You are liable for at most $50 of charges if
	your card is stolen.

My biggest concern of having ExpressCheck is the scenerio where a card
is lost.  Someone uses the card to charge a few hundred dollars of
stuff.  Some money gets debited from your account a few days later.
Up to this point you don't realize that you lost the card.  Then a
couple of your checks bounce.  Now you have to get BayBank on the
phone, and MasterCard on the phone and tell them what's up.  You have
to twist their arms to get the money back in your account.  Your
landlords phones asking about the rent check bouncing.  Your only out
$50 after the mess is all straighten out but your on the phone three
hours a day for a week in order to fix the mess.  You might also be
out other charges if checks bounced to poeple who charge fees for
that.  

The one thing about the process that is 'not is bad as it could be' is
that the charges are process manually.  That gives you a few days to
notice your card is lost and call it in, hopefully avoiding the above
scenerio.

-- 
An amazing insight may have paid you a fleeting visit and then retreated.
Resist the temptation to chase it; it is faster than you are.  Value your
glimpse of it, and invite it to return some other time.      -John Bitmap
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: BayBank
Date: 10 Sep 1992 00:04:52 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: ne
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

In article <lasdcpINN78e@news.bbn.com> dfoley@testament.bbn.com. (Dennis Foley ) writes:
>I do not like my bank coercing me to do something.

Why does everyone have to look at things so cynically?  Companies are
always making deals like this.  Sometimes it's a sale, where returns aren't
allowed; do you consider them to be "coercing" you to waive your right to
return merchandise?  Are airlines "coercing" people to stay over Saturday
nights?  Are restaurants that offer 2-for-1 coupons "coercing" you to
socialize?

It's just a marketing strategy.  They're trying to make the debit card more
attractive, by bundling in a fee waiver with it.  Stores are trying to
clear up their inventory, and returns make things less predictable.
Airlines are just trying to fill the seats on the weekend flights.  And
restaurants offer deals in the hope that you'll come back again and pay
full price.

Here's another way to look at it: BayBank requires you to get Reserve
Credit when you get the Xpress Check card.  So, since they require you to
get the credit line, they're not going to force you to pay the extra fee.
From this point of view, the waiver seems extremely reasonable -- only
people who choose to get Reserve Credit have to pay for it.
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
Newsgroups: ne.general
From: nina@panix.com (Nina Yuan)
Subject: Re: Anyone else get this from BayBank?
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 03:34:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <6173@transfer.stratus.com> savoia@sw.stratus.com (Rick Savoia) writes:
>BayBank and their little fee practices?  It seems every
>time I turn around, they are adding another fee or
>changing their fee structure.  If it wasn't for the fact
>that they are everywhere (including an ATM in my building)
>I'd probably go with someone else.   

>I don't know if there was a point to all this, aside from 
>maybe, venting to others who may have the same problems.
>What do you do when your Bank pulls stuff like this?

Go with someone else?  I know it doesn't help you any, but in my case I
went with Cambridge Savings; since I used to use the Harvard Square BayBank
ATMs, the difference with CSB has been negligible.  Luckily.

-nhy

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nina H. Yuan
Harvard College             Panix -- Public Access Unix & Internet of NYC
yuan1@husc.harvard.edu      nina@panix.com
Newsgroups: osf.junk,ne.general
From: pshuang@athena.mit.edu (Ping-Shun Huang)
Newsgroups: ne.general
Subject: Re: What is a bank?
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:41:25 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep12.141700.6396@kronos.com> richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:

 > After the Great Depression, Congress passed a number of laws aimed at
 > boosting confidence in the banking industry and isolating it from all
 > other enterprises.  Despite the depression-like economic conditions of
 > the past couple of years, there has been an accelerating trend toward
 > unifying banking with commerce.
 > 
 > Are we doomed to relearn the lessons of the Depression, the hard way?

I don't understand the logic here, unless you're arguing that the fact
that Congress passed said laws to isolate the banking industry had
non-negligible effect in pulling the country out of the "Great
Depression". Maybe I just don't know enough about financial principles
and American history, but this seems to me like a case of "Well, these
two things developed at the same time, obviously they must have caused
each other." Follow-ups only to suggest better places to discuss, please.

--
Ping Huang (INTERNET: pshuang@athena.mit.edu), probably speaking for himself