HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:45:17 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New nature vs. two natures.
              9 Oct 1992 09:57:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dan:

Sounds like Jesse is referring to II Corinthians 5:17.

Romans 5 through 8 seem to indicate the old nature has been crucified
with Christ. The new man, nature, Christian, etc. has been raised up to
walk in newness of life.

Paul also seems to touch on this a little bit in Galatians 2:20.

If the old "I" has been crucified with Christ, I sure don't want to
resurrect it.

Just some quick thoughts, firing from the hip.

Tom Brewer
From: bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM ((Brad Kaiser))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: re: Security of Salvation?
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:51:11 GMT
Reply-To: bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
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              13 Oct 1992 09:28:15 CDT <9210131438.AA21707@motgate.mot.com>

Jesse writes:

>> Replying to Gareth 's post, all that I assert is that the Bible is
>> SUFFICIENT inherently for us to draw correct conclusions in nebulous
>> areas.
>> Either it is or it is NOT.  So, which will it be Gareth.

It obviously isn't.  I submit, as proof, the Baton Rouge Yellow Pages.
How many Christian denominations are listed therein, each of whom
claim to be true to Biblical Christianity?

>> This is the REAL question here  :  "Is the Bible sufficient within itself
>> for Christians of the true calabre to arrive at correctly
>> interpreted Truth?"

Aren't you jumping to some conclusions here?  Who has infallibly
determined that you, Jesse, or any of the rest of us (for that matter)
are "Christians of the true calabre [sic]".  Where is the evidence of
that infallible determination?

Keep in mind that you can't just point to the Bible and say, "Here: my
correct interpretation of the Bible proves that I am a True
Christian [TM]" and then turn around and say, "Because I am a True
Christian [TM], my interpretation of the Bible is obviously correct."

That is the ultimate in circular reasoning.

>> Either it is or it is not and I assert the former.
                                   ^^^^^^

Precisely.

>> Now, I can understand disagreements on this if a person assumes that the
>> Word of God is insufficient in and of itself.
>> But, that either means God cannot clearly communicate with us or He has
>> no intention of doing so, and what true believer would espouse this?

This is a false dichotomy.  Perhaps it means only that God can and
does clearly communicate with us, but has chosen a different mechanism
than the Bible alone, interpreted only by an individual Christian
believer.

After all, the Bible says quite clearly that the Church is the pillar
and foundation of truth [1 Tm 3:15], built upon the foundation of the
apostles and prophets, with Christ Himself as the capstone [Eph 2:20],
and that we are to imitate the faith of the leaders who spoke the Word
of God to us [Heb 13:7] as we remain faithful to the tradition of
faith handed on [Latin, 'traditio'] to us from the apostles. [1 Cor
11:2, 2 Thess 2:15].

In Christ's Love,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
From: nabil@cae.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Earthquake in Egypt
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:37:58 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering

Hello everyone

If you have not heard about, a tragic earthquake occurred in Cairo on
Monday at 3:10 pm local time. It measured 5.9 on the Richter scale and
lasted for 20 seconds (which is very long by all means). The casualties
are increasing till this moment. So far 400+ bodies were found but they
expect the total death toll to reach 1000+, one third of which are children
that were killed in schools. The injured are 3500+. Tens of thousands
are homeless. The situation is pretty bad and people are still panicked
by the aftershocks that followed the quake. The last earthquake that hit
Cairo was in 1303!

The people there need your support either by prayer or by relief donations,
or by both. There are several organizations that are collecting relief
funds. The International Red Cross is collecting funds thru all its
regional offices. For people in the US, you can send checks clearly 
marked on the lower left hand corner 'To: Cairo Earthquake' to :

                American Red Cross
                P.O. Box 37243
                Washington, D.C., 20013

All funds will go directly to the Egyptian Red Crescent (the equivalent
of the Red Cross). 

Irene pasi,

Nabil

       	    Isaiah 19:25    "Blessed is Egypt My people"
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?
Date: 8 Oct 92 10:37:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (jesse carnes) wrote:
> Dear All ;
> 
> Someone said to Gareth that you could 'throw away' your Salvation, albeit
> you could not 'LOSE' the same.
> Without accusing of equivocation, let's say again concerning Jesus' words in
> John 6:38-40 that if His words contain  any veracity -- and they do -- then
> HOW in the world do we believe the aforementioned opinion in light of " ...
> it is my Father's will that I should lose NONE of all whom He has given me"
> AND from John 10 " ... I give them ETERNAL life and they shall NEVER die"?
> Whose opinion counts? Jesus' or ours? Hmmm???

First, let me assure you that I agree with you. I do not believe we 
can ever "unsave" ourselves, nor throw away our salvation.

However, I see an inconsistency in your arguments. Earlier this 
week you said to me:

> The "all" and "everyone" language is never exclusively used for universal
> purposes.
>
> ...
>
> So, we let context rule these things.

And yet you are now arguing that John 10 and John 6 are unequivocally 
universal in their scope. 

Let us remember though, that when attempting to read the Bible in 
context, different people will arrive at different conclusions. 
Irritation at this tendency is unwarranted. People will genuinely 
believe, through careful study, that the context of this passage 
dictates a non universal interpretation, exempting those who by an 
act of will choose to give up their salvation.

Perhaps a more constructive discussion would begin with the acceptance
that most people on this list have laboured to understand these 
passages within the Bible in their context, and with the knowledge
of God's love for them. 

> Jesse Irwin Carnes

Stephen.
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 11:47:03 -0400
From:         Robert Weiss <PSYROBTW@UBVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

Dear Remnant,

        Please pray for my uncle Ed. He needs to know the Lord.
        He is very sick with cancer.

        Thank you for your intercessions.


 en agape,
 Bob
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:42:48 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: legitimacy of certain preachers
              "U59919@UICVM.UIC.EDU" at Oct 15, 92 11:13 am

I would be very suprised if you hear something bad about Chuck Swindol.
I have read a book of his and found it very very well written and
certainly not unscriptural..


be very careful about reading quotes from people taken out of context.
As christians we must be careful not to bare false witness against a
fellow brother and sister

---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
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                     |         v   |
From: SCICIRC@UGA.BITNET (MRATCLIFF)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: SIGN OFF
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:13:18 GMT
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Dear Friends,
   I have to completely sign off for a few days.  I got a promotion(Praise God!
) and I am moving to a new department.  So, I am going to have to find a new te
rminal before I can start getting mail at my new location.  Hope I don't miss a
nything exciting!

Marissa Ratcliff            Science Library
University of GA            Circulation Dept.,
Athens, GA                  soon to be, Document Delivery
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:44:59 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: More on secular ethics
              Zimmerman" at Oct 8, 92 11:02 pm

>
>>The laws of the land say that you can be cruel and unking to everyone passing
>>by on the street. You never have to say a kind word to anyone, you can
>>to some extent abuse and make a pain of yourself...
>>
>>What else besides the law of the country do you base your morals on?
>
>I suppose to some extent I base my morals on how I want to be treated by
>others.  I try not to do anything to anyone that I wouldn't mind being
>done right back to me.
>

Something like 'do unto others what you would have them do to you'??
Sounds familiar! :)






---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
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From: tford@NEPTUNE.CONVEX.COM ((Tom Ford))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: A REQUEST FOR HELP FROM A BROTHER THAT NEEDS YOUR ADVICE!
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:19:49 GMT
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> bumpers1460@iscsvax.uni.edu wrote:
>  JUST FOR CURIOUSITY SAKE,I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO ORGANIZE
>DIFFERENT CHURCHES ( THAT PREVIOUSLY HAVE NOT WORKED VERY MUCH WITH EACH OTHER)
>INTO A SINGLE UNITED FRONT CAPABLE FOR WORKING TOGETHER TO CONQUER THE FORCES
>OF DARKNESS IN A CERTAIN AREA.

I was involved in the March for Jesus in Dallas that was held on May 23, 1992.
This involved about 50 churches working together in Dallas.  There were also
marches in over 100 North American cities and 26 European cities.  About
400,000 people were involved worldwide.

In Dallas there were about 10,000 people that marched through downtown.  The
route passed by the court houses (where Roe v. Wade was first heard), banks,
and city hall.  There are lots of testimonies from around the country, but
in Dallas the crime rate has been down every month since June.  The police
chief is taking credit, but we know better.

The next international march is June 12, 1993.

For more information write to: March for Jesus U.S.A. at P.O. Box 3216,
Austin, TX 78764.  Their phone number is (512) 416-0066.

Praise the Lord!

Tom Ford
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: CC19@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU (Joe Moore)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Cell Group Churches -- Intro
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:35:29 GMT
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> My church (Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Champaign) is in the process of a
> _fundamental_ change from being a church _with_ small groups to being a _small
> group church_.  It's a total change to a new paradigm, a new understanding of
> what "church" is.  Our goal is to establish 2000 small groups of roughly 10
> people each by the year 2000.
>
I'm interested in hearing what other people have experienced in this
area.  Our church is just starting to replace our evening service
with cell groups every other week.  What's happening out there?

Joe Moore

PS--Our church is a Baptist General Conference church--let's not get
into denominational divisions but I'd be interested in what other
churches are doing with cell groups.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:40:00 EDT
From:         "Joseph_I.Scully" <21010JIS@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      IMHO?

I've seen IMHO used several times since I signed on. Can someone tell me
what it means?

In Christ,

Joe Scully
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Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:20:58 EDT
From: Peter Gogolek <GOGOLEKP@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia,bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: christian paganism

In article <92284.2327122893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, andy
<2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> says:
>
>In a previous post, someone decried the WWCOG as a fringe religion that
>gets everything wrong. Actually, they get ONE thing. WWTOG observes Jewish
>holy days using the argument that Christ never relased one's obligation
>to observe them (including the Saturday sabbath) As well WWTOG rightly
>points out that "Christian" festivals such as Easter and Christmas have
>no basis in the bible and are actually adapted from previous Pagan festivals.
   Not quite true.
>The name of Easter is derived from Ishter (sp?) a pagan god. they also point
   Having a look at the Oxford Dictionary, Easter was "derived by Bede
   from the name of a goddess whose feast was celebrated at the vernal
   equinox."  Now recall that Easter is not celebrated at the vernal
   equinox but close to the Jewish passover, for which there is
   a fair amount of biblical support, "whence its name in most
   European languages" (Oxford again).  The accusation of pagan origin
   is based on ignorance of Christian Scripture.  But does it matter
   what day of the year is chosen for a commemoration?  I don't think so.
   In the case of Easter, the link to Passover is quite explicit, and
   it is good to preserve this link to the Jewish roots.  You, Andy,
   should agree that this is a good thing.  You might want to check
   the attitude of the WWCOG towards Jews.
>out that JC was not born in December and that in fact, there are references
>in the NT to plants that are only around in springtime being in evidence at
>
>JC's birth.
   How important is it to have the actual date of Christ's birth compared
   to the importance of the event being celebrated?  Christians no more
   believe that Jesus was born on December 25 than Stephen was martyred
   on December 26 (see Acts 6:55-60).  Is it possible to assign a date
   for Christmas without some prior pagan festival being nearby?  I don't
   think so.  Placing Christmas in the springtime would conflict with
   Easter and the preparatory season of Lent, so it makes sense to place
   the festival, and its own preparatory season of Advent, at a different
   place in the calendar.  Whatever prior pagan festival may have been
   celebrated around that time would perforce be Christianised.  Of
   course we are seeing the reverse taking place in North America, that
   the Christian festivals are being paganised.

   Pax vobiscum.

   Peter Gogolek
   Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:10:27 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?

In <CHRISTIA%92100805245660@ASUACAD.BITNET> Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
 writes:

>Would you indeed LIKE to lose your Salvation?
>Is that want you desire??

<Expression of exasperation> The question is not whether anyone WANTS to
lose Salvation, it is whether it is possible to lose it.

The New Testament provides plenty of proof-texts for both sides of the
argument.  My religious tradition is one that believes it is possible for
one to fall away, but I feel that salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus
is immensely more important than whether one can accept that salvation and
later discard it.  From the viewpoint of eternity one might say that those
who in the end are not saved were in a sense never saved --- but we're
stuck in time.

My only request of the advocates of assured salvation is that they not make
that assurance the source of complacency or of spiritual pride.  (Somehow
someone's story of the Pharisee and the Publican comes to mind . . .)
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
From: VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET (Vicky Chai)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Songrette - Delight In Him
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:10:10 GMT
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  DELIGHT IN HIM


When the level of every fear is rising,
Let your praise rise up higher till
You delight in Him,
Delight in Him.
When discouragement has you at the bottom,
Let your love go down deeper still
And delight in Him.
It doesn't matter what appears to be,
His overriding power is all you need to see

When the dreams of your heart become elusive,
Make Him your goal and tell Him how
you delight in Him,
Delight in Him.
When the measure of hope adds up to nothing,
Count it all joy and tell Him now,
you delight in Him,
Delight in Him.
It doesn't matter what appears to be,
He'll show you all that matters for eternity,
If you will delight in Him.

Lift up your voice to heaven,
Like a trumpet's sound,
And delight in Him.

It doesn't matter if you're running dry,
There's a source of living water that will never die,
If you will delight in Him.

Lift up your voice to heaven,
Like a trumpet's sound,
And delight in Him,
Let's delight in Him,
Delight in Him.

(By: Stormie Omartian, Michael Omartian; copyright: See This House Music
'85)


"Delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart."
                                           -- Ps 37:4

Delight in the Lord, and _He_ will be your desire.


In Christ,
  Vicky
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 09:12:53 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Comments on the Apostles and Jesus' Teachings
              Million" at Oct 9, 92 9:26 am

Michael, one of the gospels, I think it is John, tells us that the
Holy Spirit would make us remember things that he had told us.

I have no trouble believing that an omnipotent God would have the ability
to keep the life and times of Jesus very clear in the minds of the Apostles,
even a number of decades after the event happened.. The purpose WAS after
all to write down the Logos!


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Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: dweinste@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Hills Weinstein)
Subject: Re: New Age in Schools #9
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Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 21:10:29 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92100804232247@ASUACAD.BITNET> MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU writes:
#    Another scary thing about this example is that it uses the word
#"rock", that by the use of a "rock" you can feel anyway you want to feel.
#Well "rock" is the street name for crack, and when you start using this
#as a hypnotic suggestion, you're planting the seeds in that child that if
#I can't do this with this mind technique, my mind, it's like it's been
#charged with the word of "rock". That I can feel however I want to feel,
#with using "rock". So basically you're encouraging a child to use "rock",
#to feel good, and that's scary also.

So when Protestants talk about Jesus being the Rock of the Church, and how
Jesus can solve your problems and ease your pain, they are really telling
people that they should use crack cocaine? 

No matter which way you phrase it, it's an idiotic argument.

--Dave


--
Dave Weinstein                               Internet: dweinste@nyx.cs.du.edu
Disclaimer: You must be kidding.             GEnie: OLORIN
In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, "Let there be light."
And there was still nothing. But you could see it.
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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 08:37:29 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Churches in Pittsburgh

Excerpts from christia: 13-Oct-92 Churches in Pittsburgh Lon Mendelsohn
<lmendels@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU> (328)

> Folks.

> I will be attending a work-related conference in Pittsburgh over the last
> weekend in October.  Would anyone be able to recommend a relatively accessible
> evengelical church?  I will be staying fairly close to the downtown area,
> so walking or reliable bus distance would be preferred.  Thanks...

> Shalom,

> Lon Mendelsohn

Let's see, I hear that Pittsburgh East Full Gospel is really good; that
would probably be an optimal choice for you.  Unfortunately it's in
Monroeville, over a half hour away from where you are.  It's also very
hard to get to and I don't remember the directions (thought I could
procure them).

Many evangelicals go to Ascension Episcopal church, but as you might
expect it's highly liturgical and probably not what you want.  If you go
down Forbes from downtown, turn left on Bellefield where Forbes turns
two-way, then right on Fifth, you can either turn left at the second
light on a street whose name I cannot remember or turn left on
Devonshire right before the Byzatine Catholic church, and you will see
Ascension {on your right, straight ahead} one block down.

I hear reasonable things about Bellefield Presbyterian, lots of
evangelicals go there, they even run an outreach from there.  Following
above instructions except turn left on Fifth instead of right, and it
will be oh two or three blocks down in the right.  (Hint: It's not on
Bellefield Ave.)

There is another Presbyterian church, I think it's Shadyside
Presbyterian, which also runs an outreach.  No idea where it is except
somewhere in the area further down Fifth away from downtown.

There's also a "Christian Church" left at the first light in the
preceding directions, but last I heard they began getting a little
cultish and I know many who left from there.

I'll send a copy of this message to one of my friends in Pittsburgh; he
can fill you in. He goes to Pittsburgh East, maybe he could even arrange
a ride for you.

Eric
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