HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raan@techunix.technion.ac.il (Ran Ever-Hadani)
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:16:14 GMT

In <1992Oct1.203928.11220@ncsu.edu> hernlem@che13.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>In article <1992Oct1.173357.28297@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp
>(Adam Shostack) writes:
>> From Israel Line, Sept 30:

>> Hundreds of Hizbullah Terrorists Attack SLA Posts in South Lebanon

>> Today's HA'ARETZ reports on the Hizbullah attacks Monday on South
>> Lebanese Army posts in the Security Zone.  ...

>Interesting how HA'ARETZ refers to Hezbollah fighters as "terrorists"
>when they attack occupation forces

Actually, Ha'Aretz used the Hebrew word "Mehablim", which usually
means "irregulars fighting against Israel".  This word is commonly
translated into English as "terrorists", for lack of a better word.
The members of the Jewish settler underground who carried terrorist 
attacks against Arabs, were termed "terrorists" (teroristim), and not
Mehablim.

>but ignores the Israeli shelling of
>Lebanese villages and loss of civilian life.

Ha'Aretz did no such thing.  The Israeli shelling and its consequences
was definitely covered by Ha'Aretz.  Care to apologize?

-- Ran
-- 
Withdrawal from the territories is in Israel's vital interest.  I will not 
feel any less at home in Shiloh or Bethlehem if I need a visa to go there.

                                   Moshe Dayan  (quoted from memory)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: News on YEMEN
From: nasser@nutmeg.ntu.edu.au (Nasser H. Bajhau)
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:37:45 +0900
Distribution: world
Organization: Information Technology, Northern Territory University

Keywords: 

     Has anyone got any news on Yemen.
     If so then please send to my address or post them here.

  With many thanks.
  Nasser ******** sha'bi.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:10:53 GMT

jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:

>In article <BvM5nD.GBM@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>=>kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>=>
>=>>     Also, there are certain areas in Israel where non-Jews are not allowed,
>=>>BY LAW, to live there.  Such as the village of CARMIEL, where non-Jews are not
>=>>allowed to live there nor are they allowed TO OWN A BUSINESS (this is the so
>=>>called Israeli DEMOCRACY !!!!).  Not only that, now that village have
>=>>incorporated the land of three neighboring ARAB villages (in an effort to make
>=>>the entire area PURE JEWISH) and are forcing the Arab inhabitants out of their
>=>>villages.

>=>Can you provide a source for this?

>Glad to help, Ed:

>"Report on Visit to Karmiel as Scholar in Residence", Prof. Raphael Jospe,
>report to the American Zionist Federation, April 1, 1982.

I don't have time to look this up right now.  I would be greatful if you
quoted me the relevant section.


>-- 
>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
>                                             Bladmagen
>                                   Loepmagen
>                        Naetmagen

Ed.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler)
Subject: Re: MEQ #6: 'Arabs are Jews'
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:31:26 GMT

In article <bdm.718295126@cs.anu.edu.au>,
bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>
>The myth of massive Arab immigration after Zionist settlement began
>is just that, a myth.  If you think otherwise, I suggest you post
>some evidence.

Good joke--"some evidence." The matter has been well documented for
decades.  The most recent example:  Joan Peters, "From Time
Immemorial." This study has never been in any way refuted.  Some of
the more aberrant Israel-hating revisionist loonies fantasize that
their off-the-wall asseverations have annihilated Peters.  Are you
one of those?

>
>Before the Zionist "threat" (describing it from their viewpoint)
>they had no reason for overt nationalism.  That doesn't detract
>the slightest from their rights as a group.

Another hot one.  Say, while you're sitting on high parceling out
rights to groups, mind telling us what WOULD detract from some
group's rights.  Does Boy Scout Troop 78 in Ohio have a right to
raise an army and take a seat at the UN, in your opinion?  Do
historical facts matter at all to you?

Vic
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 09:39:13 GMT

bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>In a previous article, kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J
>Shammout) says:

>>Well, well, well. Lets us go back to the early 1900's for a second. 
>>In 1939 the Jews owned about 5% (134,775 hectares) of the land in 
>>Palestine.  By 1948, The Jews owned no more than 7% of the land 
>>in Palestine. Of course, this means that the Palestinians owned 93%.

>This conveniently ignores the fact that, assuming those figures are true
>(which they're not), the Palestinians owned 7% and the Arabs owned 93%,
>since at that time the term Palestinian was used to refer to the Jewish
>residents of Palestine.  The practice of using Palestinian to refer to
>Arabs is far more recent.

Palestinian Jews used the word "Palestinians" to refer to themselves.
Earlier than that, around the turn of this century, Palestinian Arabs 
were sometimes known as "Philistines"---an Anglicisation of the Arabic 
word by which they called themselves, not necessarily anything to do
with the ancient Philistines.  

>I don't recall anything in the UN plan forcing anyone to give up any of
>their private land.  My understanding was that Jews could live in the Arab
>part, and Arabs in the Jewish part, if they so desired.  

If they were already living there, yes.  They even had the right to
citizenship of the other state within some time limit.  There were
also strict rules about the expropriation of land---rules that
were broken by both sides but most massively by Israel.

>                                                         Certainly, after
>the reestablishment of Israel, hundreds of thousands of Arabs chose to
>remain in their homes in Israel and kept their land.  (Unfortunately, every
>last Jew was kicked out of eastern Palestine, Judea, Samaria, the Gaza
>Strip and the portion of Jerusalem taken by Jordan.)

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: MEQ #6: "Arabs are Jews"
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:25:26 GMT

davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.044057.18581@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>
>>      MEQ #6.  Brothers!
>>
>>   ... Israel Belkind, who ... belonged to the first batch of Zionist
>>   immigrants, [while] travelling on both sides of the Jordan in 1894,
>>   ... came to the conclusion that 'the overwhelming majority' of the
>>   inhabitants were descended from Jews 'who had not left the land but
>>   had endured their political and spiritual exile in it'.  This
>>   discovery impelled him to ask: 'Are we to go on distinguishing them
>>   as Arabs ... only because they speak Arabic?'  Evidently not.  'We
>>   are brothers, brothers in stock, brothers, sons of one people.

>   Very nice and dandy opinion. Well, I guess that our brothers denied
>   this "fact" and tried to expell us into the sea!

>   Belkind was SPECULATING 

Yes of course.

>                            - his speculation may apply to some of the
>   Arabs that lived in Plaesine at the time (less then 300K). But it 

Actually about 426K by Ottoman figures (1893 census).

>   sure does not apply to the immigrants from many other Arab countries
>   during the generations and especially after the beggining of Zionist
>   settlement.

The myth of massive Arab immigration after Zionist settlement began
is just that, a myth.  If you think otherwise, I suggest you post
some evidence.

>   I think that this 'gut feeling' of Belkind must be supported by
>   customs, langauge and other signs. Unfortunately there is precious
>   little differences in the Arab Population of Palestine/Syria. 

I suspect that few modern anthropologists would think much of
Belkind's speculations; I posted them because they were, well,
different.

>   They show no signs of being with Jewish/Philistine/Cannanite origins
>   they assimilated completely into the Arab nation. Their rights in the 
>   country is not national but as individuals. They never claimed it
>   it before the Jews came.

Before the Zionist "threat" (describing it from their viewpoint)
they had no reason for overt nationalism.  That doesn't detract
the slightest from their rights as a group.

>  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"

Brendan.
From: friedenb@topaz.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Date: 2 Oct 92 02:38:13 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@topaz.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University


In article <1992Oct1.203928.11220@ncsu.edu> hernlem@che13.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Interesting how HA'ARETZ refers to Hezbollah fighters as "terrorists"
>when they attack occupation forces but ignores the Israeli shelling of
>Lebanese villages and loss of civilian life. 


Do you consider UNIFIL an occupation force?

From the original post (article <1992Oct1.173357.28297@das.harvard.edu>):
>> While retreating, a Hizbullah terrorist fired an Rocket Propelled Grenade
>> at a UNIFIL post, trying to open a UNIFIL blockade. A UN observer
>> from the Irish battalion was killed and another one injured.

I would like to hear ANY good explanation for why Hizbullah would attack 
the UN!!!

UNIFIL is there to help Arabs (including Hizbullah).  This sounds like
"biting the hand that feeds you..." 

In Bosnia-Hecogevnia the UN retaliates when they are attacked.

If the UN defended itself in Lebanon, it would be caled self-defense.
BUT, when Israel retaliates under similar circumstances, it is called
aggressive acts of violence causing a "loss of civilian life."

Now that is what *I* call interesting!  ;^)    [sarcasm intended]

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University

                   
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:55:08 GMT

bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:


> 
>The unfortunate fact of life is that the Hezbollah terrorists, like other
>Arab terrorists such as the PLO, make it a policy to try to protect
>themselves from retaliation by basing themselves in the midst of civilian
>areas.

I suppose the Israeli army isolates itself from civilans and is isolated
in no mans land.
Of course this "fact of life" is the reason why more civilians and
children are killed by the Israelis then Hizbollah soldiers while they
were able to bomb and kill the former Hizbollah leader that accurately.
Sarcasm off..

One permanent feature of the terrorist government of Israel (which evolved
from the terrorist groups that existed in the thirties and fourties), is their
willingness to harm or even kill your relative (even your child) or your 
neighbor to deter you from attacking them.. This is what is happening in 
Lebanon and this is what explains the destruction of houses of all neighbors 
of any alleged activist in the Intifadah.
The other permanent feature is its hunger for territory which makes it use
any opportunity to grab some more of it and cling to it until (or unless) it
is no longer feasible to hold it.

I do not deny that there are Palestinian terrorists who do not care about
their cause, but terrorists existed on both sides since and before the 
creation of the zionist state.. While blame could go both ways equally
in this department, there should be no doubt that the party that is 
suffering the most injustice is the Palestinian side, while the party that
is inflicting the most injustice and the one who benefits even more from
the situation is the Israeli one.
>-- 
>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:00:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.224907.22798@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>In Article: 52226 of talk.politics.mideast, (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>>(Khaled Shammout) writes:
>
>>>     And finally, what about all those special rights and priviliges that are
>>>offered ONLY to the new comers to Israel.  And guess who the new comers
>>>are??? Jews, of course.
>
>>Maybe you forget that Israel is a Jewish State.  It is here for the benefit
>>and security of Jews.  Perhaps if Jews had been treated better in other parts
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of the world including the Arab countries then such a thing would not have
>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>been necessary.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>     AH HAAAA!  So the Jews did not want to settle in Palestine because of
>religious reasons!!!!!!
>
>     Just another proof in the defense of the Palestinian TRUTH.

Strawman.  And from the postings of the previous 3 weeks, Khaled knows
it, too.  I strongly suggest, Khaled, that you start taking people at
their word, Khaled; strawman tactics are not legitimate debating
tactics, and in my book they're just plain despicable.  The fact is that
Herzl, Weizmann et al. - the fathers of the Zionist movement - were not
religious men *at all*.  This has been repeated to you over and over
again.  You are obviously ignoring anything that doesn't agree with your
viewpoint, even when repeatedly proved wrong.  


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Concessions
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:51:42 GMT

bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep24.080215.2891@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>> 
>> In article 16776@das.harvard.edu, adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>		[...]

>+>However, you are in a way, right.  The Palestinians have very little
>+>to give in a concrete fashion (if you'll excuse the pun.)  However,
>+>there is a list of "ideological" and moral concessions that could be
>+>made, and could be made quickly and easily if they are in fact
>+>interested in a permanent and just peace.
>+>
>+>1.  Amend the Covenant.  Article 19, and others.
>> 
>> Yes, subject to 2--
>> 
>+>2.  Clearly, plainly, and without retractions recognize Israel's right
>+>to exist. 
>> 
>> Does Israel recognize that the Palestinian people exist?  (Not talking
>> about a state.)  I don't remember any such recognition, but rather
>> signs of a deliberate failure to recognise them (such as the insistence
>> of joint Palestinian-Jordanian delegations).  

>	From The Camp David Accords, Sept. 17, 1978:
>	"Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the _Palestinian
>	people_ should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the 
>	Palestinian problem in all its aspects...." (Framework, A.1., 
>	emphsis added).

Ok, good example, but Palestinians also have made statements which
implicitly note the existence of Israel.  You would not regard those
statements as formal recognition of Israel (and I may well agree 
with you), and in the same way I would not expect Palestinians to
accept the above as a formal recognition of their rights as a people.

>	Besides, the Israeli equivalent of the Palestinian covenant does 
>	not negate the Palestinian existance or their right to exist. 

Neither does the Palestinian covenant negate the Jewish existence 
or their right to exist.  That's my point.

>	Analogy seems to be improper.

>If not, why should these
>> nonexistent people recognise a Jewish state?  Do the Palestinians deny
>> the existence of the Jewish people?  Not to my knowledge.  It seems that
>> Israel has some catching up to do in the matter of recognition.

>	Catching up, yes. But not with the Palestinians' recognition
>	of Israel.

I didn't say that Palestinians recognise Israel.  What I would suggest 
is a swap:  Israel makes a formal declaration that it accepts the 
Palestinians as a people with the same rights to self-determination 
as any other people, and the Palestinians repeal all articles in the 
Covenant and elsewhere that call for the destruction of Israel and
formally denounce that call.  (Anyone who thinks that such declaration
by Israel is not necessary should read t.p.m for a while.)   Formal 
recognition of a Jewish state by the Palestinians can wait until Israel 
is ready to recognise a Palestinian state.

>Noam

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:44:33 GMT

kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
#
#   First of all, the Arabs have never used religion as a mean to classify
#people as Arabs or non-Arabs.  There are thousands upon thousands of Arab Jews
#who are still living in Arab countries.  

But are they considered citizens and have equal rights?

#Also, there are many Jews who work for the
#PLO (that is the Palestine Liberation Organization).  

Care to elaborate and give numbers? I have never heard of this.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: Jack S Defends Kosher Food Boycott (Was: ARF DEFENDS HIS HONOR)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:51:49 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL

In article <1aim1cINN20j@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>One irony of a boycott of kosher products is that it is my understanding
>that, with Muslim dietary laws somewhat similar to kashruth, a boycott of
>kosher products, and a decreasing of their availability, would also impact
>negatively on Arab Muslims here.

That's why I opted to persue a boycott of Coors.  Muslims don't drink beer.


But ARF probably doesn't care, as long as it hurts the Jews.

There you go again ......  HATEMONGER!  Chutzpanazi-howling-savage!

js
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: "SALEM" (Peace)!!! means "MURDER"!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:51:38 GMT

ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

>In article <1992Oct4.165724.3417@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>>
>>In article (52134, talk.politics.mideast) Gideon Ehrlich writes:
>>
>>>But this is the main point , haled J Shammout many other Arabs in the
>>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>middle east and in other places do consider killing Jews as a good
>>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>action.
>> ^^^^^^
>>
>>     This is outrageous Gideon.  How dare you accuse me and other Arabs of
>>such a thing????   HOW DARE YOU!!!!!  Or is it that you can not find any valid
>>argument to use???
>>     Such accusations are arrogant, unproffessional, racist, and
>>anti-semetic.  I DEMAND AN IMMEDIATE APOLOGY over the same newsgroup/s
>>in which this accusation appeared.  And I mean immediate apology.
>>
>>____________________
>>Khaled Shammout

>Dear Khaled , if you dont like the face you see in the mirror don't
>blame the mirror.

>the fact is that neither  haled J Shammout nor any of the other Arabs
>on the net has say any word as to the attemot to murder Avraham Cohen
>the Arabian father and his 2 sons of Salem has done, He and his friend
>just tried mocking me for my English !
> During the gulf war ALL Arabs used to dance on top of their houses while
>Iraqies scads were on their way to Israel and there was a sirene
>warning about that. Their song was :
>  Sadam sadam        -    Sadam  Sadam
>          ya habib   -      Beloved
>  udrub udrub        -    hit  hiy
>          Tel Abib   -     Tel Aviv


>The slogan Arabs use to shout is :
>ITBACH EL YAHUD   - slaoughter  the Jews . ( a mild version of that
>is the slogan Juden Rause )
>Such slogan shouting and a similar songs are a common part of Arabian
>weddings at the Galilee and other places.
>Many Arabs were cought before and after attempt to murder Jews and
>they explain their deeds simply  " I came to kill Jews" they are
>enjoying a wide support from their society. It was checked and found
>that killing Jews is a high aspiration of most of the Arabs here, Even
>professor Samocha ( a Jew) an extremely leftist declared that Arabian
>willing to kill us can be expressed only when we are week , but if
>there will be a peace and we will be considered as strong then Arabs
>will not try killing Jews.
> I do not want to say that Druz, Curds and other minorities do enjoy
>toleration among Arabs.

An interesting addition:

"In the capital (Jerusalem) last Wednesday, two people were stabbed within
30 minutes in different parts of the city.  Both were lightly wounded.  
Sima Kiviti, 47, was attacked from behind as she left work at a home for the
elderly at about 8 pm.  The assailant put a hand over her mouth and, in Hebrew
with a strong Arabic accent told her, "I must kill as many Jews as I can," 
police reported."  (JP Intl. Edition, 10/3/92, p.24)

Ed.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Don't jump through windows' panes
Date: 1 Oct 92 11:32:11 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.jewish,world
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

Binyamin Ilan ( "a tree") is a farmer at moshav  Tekuma ( south , was
a part of the Negev desert - Eretz Yisrael) . On Friday morning last
week shortly after midnight he awaked either because of Naman Al-Aidi
Hollywood("Holliday") a 24 years old Arab  who was seating on him or because
the knife that Arab pushed in to Ilan's hand.
Ilan objected Al-Aidi behavioure, but the Arab stubbed him several
more times before Ilan through him away. Ilan took his pistol , put
the magazine into it but too much time was spent and the Arab was
several meters away. There was no light in the house and Ilan was
afraid he may shoot his twins that may be out of their room.
The Aram jumped out through the window's pane.
He run to a nearby other Jewish farm moshav-Sharsheret, where the
police easily identified him because of the many cuts he got while
jumping through the winddow's pane.

Conclusion: never jump through window's panes. It works perfect at
Hollywood , but they use a special plastic windows-panes not the
regular ones made of glass.

Shalom              Gideon         ERETZ YISRAEL