From: ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller)
Subject: Re: Perfect Prophets?
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:50:38 GMT

wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes:
> The picture I am getting from Barry is that a Prophet is suppose to be
> rather quiet and gloomy.  He states that "A prophet of the Living God
> should speak far and inbetween, not idle words, and in fear of their
> responsibility." Doesn't participate in idle chatter. Hardly says
> a word unless spoken to (by God). Doesn't speak presumptously on any
> matter. Exhibits a "maturity manifested in the self-awareness of such an
> awesome gift."

I believe Barry was describing a prophet who does not lie -- A prophet
who would not make the following statement:

  'Every man has a right to be a false prophet as well as a
   true prophet.'
_Joseph Smith, Apr, 6, 1844, Journal_

This entry in Joseph's journal preceeds the King Follet Discourse,
in which he presented us with the idea of God being once a man.  I
wonder which right he was excercising.

> May I point out Ezekiel 26:1-26
>
> The context AND the parallelistic format make it very clear that
> Nebuchadnezzar is suppose to destroy the island city of Tyre. Even more,
> because the prophecy distinguishes between the mainland and the city, there
> is no question about what part of Tyre is suppose to be destroyed. While
> Nebuchadnezzar did ravage the settlements on the mainland, he failed to
> capture the island city of Tyre. Alexander the Great, several centuries
> later, did that. Therefore based on your "test" Ezekiel fails. He spoke
> in God's name, put forward a general time frame, even described who would
> accomplish the task, and it did not occur!

You have very nicely hidden who Ezekiel described as accomplishing the task
'the nations'.  The very first description of the judgement of Tyre (v.3)
states 'nations' will come against Tyre, as the sea.  The nations are stated
as 'scraping the dust, like the top of a rock'.  This speaks of the finality
of the judgment, brought about by the 'nations'.

With another 'thus saith', king Nebechadrezzar is introduced, and his
involvement in the above described judgement is given: he shall slay,
he shall make a fort, he shall cast a mount, he shall lift a buckler,
he shall set engines of war, he shall break down, his horses shall
cover tyre with dust, he shall enter the gates.

The prophecy ceases with what 'he' (Nebuchadnezzar) will do and
reverts to what 'I' (Jehovah) will do -- 'I will make thee like the
top of a rock.' (v.14) Compare this to what the 'nations' are to do
in v.4, 'I will scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top
of a rock.' If Nebuchadrezzar was to 'scrape' her dust, why does the
abundance of his horses 'cover' Tyre with dust?

I would like to quote Gleason Archer:

       A careful examination of 26:3-14 indicates a two-stage level of
punishment for Tyre. Verses 3-4 predicted that "many nations would come up
agianst" it and would break down its towers and walls. This fits in well with
the Chaldean campaign and its thorough destruction of the mainland city.
Verses 5-6 go on to speak of the removal of all the bricks and rocks and
everything from the site of that ruined city --- a most unusual procedure in
dealing with a city taken by storm. Generally such locations would be left a
chaos of rubble rather than being swept clean.
       Verses 7-11 specify that Nebuchadnezzar will capture, plunder, and
thoroughly destroy the parent city on the shore.  But v.12 seems to usher in
the later phase, using an unspecified "they" as the subject of "shall make a
spoil of thy riches." Continuing through vv13-14, the specifics point very
strikingly toward a later attcak on the island city of Tyre that was
successfully carried through by Alexander the Great (ca. 332bc).  History
tells us that after Alexander's naval forces proved incapable of storming the
island (due to the determined resistance of the superior Tyrian fleet), he
resorted to an ambitious engineering effort, consisting of a mile long mole
built out from the shore to the east wall of the island. In order to get
material for this causeway, the Greel invaders used every moveable piece of
rock or stone to cast into the sea, until after several months of strenuous
endeavor the wall was reached, broken through, and the city was sacked.
Exasperated by the long delay in his invasion schedule, Alexander resolved to
make a fearsome example of Tyre; so that he had the island city of TYre
totally destroyed so that it should never be rebuilt (v14).
         In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre was later and assumed
some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the
island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the Mediterranean, in
the same subsidence that submerged the port of Caesara that Herod had built
up with such expense and care. All that remains of it is a series of black
reefs...
_Gleason Archer, Encylopedia of Bible Difficulties_

I fail to see any correlation between God's judgement as described by
Ezekiel, and the false prophecies Joseph Smith gave.

  'I prophesy in the name of the Lord God that in a few years
  this government will be utterly overthrown and wasted so that there
  will not be a potsherd left for their wickedness in coniving at the
  Missouri mobocracy.'
_William Clayton's Diary_, May 18, 1843.

A related prophecy,

  'While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by
  virtue of the holy priesthood vested in me, and in the name of
  the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our
  petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a
  government, AND GOD SHALL DAMN THEM, AND THERE SHALL BE NOTHING
  LEFT OF THEM -- NOT EVEN A GREASE SPOT.'
_Millenial Star_, v.22, p.455. (all caps words deleted from the
reprint of History of the Church v.6, p.116.)

Congress did not grant protection, and the government is still around.

>             Willard C. Smith
> Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
>  Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com

Mark
<standard disclaimer>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc