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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:10:44 -0600
From:         U59919@UICVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Do other people see this....?
              26 Jan 1993 07:37:27 CST from <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1993 07:37:27 CST Russ Neumeier said:
>Everyone,
>
>I got in this morning and started to read my mail, but on the CHRISTIA list
>there are posts to a physics group, a woman's studies group, and a group about
>vampires....?  Am I the only one getting these messages?  The headers say
>that they are being sent to CHRISTIA.....Hmmmmmm.
>
>
>Russ
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Russ Neumeier       | I'm not ashamed to let you know, I want this light in
>russn@ssec.wisc.edu | me to show.  I'm not ashamed to speak the name....
>SSEC, UW-Madison    | of Jesus Christ ---- The Newsboys
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a matter of fact, I got stuff from these groups also.
I'm going NOMAIL today because it overloaded my account storage max. and the
people who run the computer systems here aren't very happy with me.
I hope this situation is remedied soon.

1. Because I don't understand college level physics.
2. I am not a woman nor am I interested in a women's study group.
3. I am not a vampire.

See Yah!!
--------------------------------+------------+---------------------------------
Theodore Penn                   |  <><   <>< | University of Illinois at
U59919@uicvm.uic.edu  Internet  |    ><>     | Chicago - Computer Science Dept.
U59919@uicvm          Bitnet    | <><  <><   | Go Against the Flow.
(312)237-0096         Phone     |  <><  <><  | I am a Stranger to this World.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:16:21 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Last night's Rush Limbaugh Show

I concur with Scott Weberg. Rush does not represent mainstream evangelical
Christianity, but he seems to stand for many of the same values. I do not
particularly *like* his arrogance. But, putting that aside, I like the fact
that he represents the conservative view with intelligence, logic and vigor.

I seldom disagree with him.

Jim Coen
coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:49:50 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: KJV

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: "P.Debenham" <ppxpmd@mips.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: KJV
>Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 11:59:25 GMT

Sorry to correct Theodore but the New World Translation was done by the
Jehovah Witnesses not by the Mormon's (who use the KJV + the book of Mormon).
I still agree about avoiding the NWT due to extremely badly biased
translation.

Peter D
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:02:45 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Jesse on tongues vs. canon

> Date: 28 Jan 1993 12:24:56 -0600
> From: jesse carnes <NOTJIC%LSUVM.BITNET@asu.edu>
> Subject: Jesse on tongues vs. canon
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
> When we bring in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 into the picture, what we see is that the
> Word of God alone is SUFFICIENT for all of our spiritual needs.
> If tongues and prophecy were still validly operating today, the Sufficiency
> of the Word would be in question.  So is there a NEED for more direct Divine
> revelation in light of 2 Tim. 3:16-17?  If there is not, the issue of tongues
> becomes rather academic, and if so, then the varacity of 2 Timothy 3 is
> equally academic.

There is always the possibility that a message may be intended only for
the group who receives it; it is not necessarily a general revelation
at the same level as Scripture.  This would entail matters of local
interest such as an exhortation toward increased evangelism in a
particular church, or encouragement in light of recent problems, etc.

As one who has never spoken in tongues, and has only rarely encountered
it in church, I stand to gain nothing personally by defending the
practice.  Although I am wary of the whole thing because of how it can
be counterfeited to manipulate people, and how in some places I see it
emphasized at the expense of other equally valid gifts, I am not
prepared to reject it wholesale in light of the number of Christian
brethren who say they have seen so much good come of it (e.g., the
story of the visiting Chinese folks who heard their own language).

In short, there is no reason that *all* divine revelation must cease
after the closing of the Canon.  Scripture alone is *sufficient*, but
that should in no way prevent God from guiding and encouraging us
further on a more personal level.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Original_cc:  HUTTER
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:10:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Israel (was: Partial answers to a couple of Kerry's questions.)

In a message of Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:52:00 EST
Received on Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:04 N
DRCV06::GRAHAM <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL> wrote:

> This is, admitedly, a point with which many will disagree.  That's okay,
> I'm used to it, but I believe that an honest look at Romans will show that
> the Jews have no relevance now, at least, not as a nation.

Dan,

Could you please explain how you then interpret the passages that talk
of Israel's restoration and Romans 9-11. Ever open to learn. Smile.

Wolfgang
--
 Wolfgang Hutter <><, Abt. Chem. Phys., Uni Ulm
 BITNET:   hutter@dulruu51.bitnet or hutter@dulruu52.bitnet
 Internet: hutter@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de
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Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:52:59 -0500
From:         Dr Nancy's Sweetie <kilroy@GBORO.ROWAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Evolution and other things

Nicholas Hawthorn writes:

> Communism and Humanism are two philosophies built on evolution.  Neither
> of them could be built on the Bible's account of creation.

This is not correct; neither Communism nor Humanism requires a belief in
evolution.

You have set up a false dichotomy, that a philosophy must be built either on
a literal reading of the Genesis account, or that it be built on evolution.
But one might build a philosophy on the creation stories from some other
religion (there are quite a few of them) -- or one might build a philosophy
with no regard whatsoever for the source of human origins.

A Deist, for example, might believe that the earth is 500 years old and that
God performed an act of special creation to make rational humans -- but that
it is irrelevant to our morality.  Or an agnostic may decide that whatever
the source of human origins, it cannot be known with certainty; therefore, he
will construct a system of morality which does not depend at all on ideas
about the source of humanity.

I agree that Communism and Humanism are not compatible with a literal reading
of the Genesis account, but that does not mean they must be built on the
theory of evolution.


> I think that belief in evolution has very harmful effects, on individuals
> (especially on unbelievers, perhaps on Christians as well) and on whole
> societies.

This, unfortunately, is "argument from results".  That is, you are saying
that belief in evolution is bad because it has some bad results.  But if the
theory of evolution is true, then those bad results are irrelevant.

No argument should ever say "This idea is bad because it has XXX results".
Arguments should consist solely of examinations of the relevant evidence and
reasoning -- and nothing else.

For example, one could argue from reading this list that believing in Christ's
Resurrection makes people truculent and divisive.  But that result does not
mean that Christ's Resurrection is false.


[ I am making the (until-now) unstated assumption that one should believe
  things because they are true, or because the available evidence justifies
  a belief in them.  Someone who disagrees -- for example, a person who
  thinks we should believe what makes us happiest -- might well decide that
  beliefs should be based on something besides evidence, and therefore would
  not agree with the section immediately above. ]


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:37:02 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Defending Ourselves

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>From: scott@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Scott Shalkowski)
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>Subject: Re: Defending Ourselves
>Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:52:01 +0800
>Organization: The University of Western Australia

Sandy Sartorelli (sandy.cit@MHSGATE.CIT.AC.NZ) wrote:

: Unless we have clear guidance from God that this is what He wants
: from us in any situation we find ourselves in, I do not feel we need
: to choose the matyr's path, if there are other options.


Perhaps Darren's point is that it looks as though we already have clear
guidance from God - turn the other cheek; don't return evil for evil,
but good for evil, etc.  Given these general guidelines, why do we need
further information to know that in some circumstances we may be called
to take the martyr's path?

Cheers,

Scott                                     scott@arts.uwa.edu.au
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 10:07:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      THE LIST OWNERS' REQUEST TO STOP DISCUSSING ROBERTSON.

Of course, they do own the list and have the perfect right to request, or
demand, as they see fit, that we either discuss or stop discussing any
particular topic.

That being said, I take exception to the request to stop talking about Pat
Robertson.  I would like to point out that he has set himself up as a
public figure, not only in Christian circles, but in political ones and
journalistic ones as well.  To speak well or ill of him is completely
appropriate and I see no reason why we should not discuss him and his
organization here.  If some, as I, feel he is an abomination, we should be
permitted to express this.  No word of rebuke is raised when several posts
are made endorsing or applauding him, only when decrying him and I think
this is unequal.

I would be the first to say we have no business attacking anyone.  To
observe negative things about the public figure of Robertson is not an
attack, it is as much an observation of facts as the "facts" he,
(Robertson) is touting.  I would not ever think it correct to drcry a
member of Christia, we are not public figures, but, Mr. Robertson is.

Thems my thoughts,

Dan Graham
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:11:42 -0500
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      John Chrysostom (27 Jan)

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE (27 JAN 407)

John was called "Chrysostom" ("Golden Mouth") because of his
eloquence. He was Bishop of Antioch, and an outstanding preacher.
(Audiences were warned not to carry large sums of money when they
went to hear him speak, since pickpockets found it very easy to rob
his hearers -- they were too intent on his words to notice what was
happening.) His sermons are mostly straightforward expositions of
Holy Scripture (he has extensive commentaries on both Testaments,
with special attention to the Epistles of Paul), and he emphasizes
the literal meaning, whereas the style popular at Alexandria tended
to read allegorical meanings into the text. He loved the city and
people of Antioch, and they loved him. However, he became so famous
that the Empress at Constantinople decided that she must have him
for her court preacher, and she had him kidnapped and brought to
Constaninople and there made bishop. This was a failure all around.
His sermons against corruption in high places earned him powerful
enemies (including the Empress), and he was sent into exile, where
he died. Along with Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil the Great, and
Gregory of Nazianzus, he is counted as one of the Four Great Eastern
(or Greek) Doctors of the Ancient Church. (The Four Great Western
(or Latin) Doctors are Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and Gregory the
Great.)

PRAYER (traditional wording)
   O God, who didst give to thy servant John Chrysostom grace
   eloquently to proclaim thy righteousness in the great
   congregation, and fearlessly to bear reproach for the honor of
   thy Name: Mercifully grant to all bishops and pastors such
   excellency in preaching, and fidelity in ministering thy Word,
   that thy people shall be partakers with them of the glory that
   shall be revealed; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth
   and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever
   and ever.

PRAYER (contemporary wording)
   O God, who gave to your servant John Chrysostom grace
   eloquently to proclaim your righteousness in the great
   congregation, and fearlessly to bear reproach for the honor of
   your Name: Mercifully grant to all bishops and pastors such
   excellency in preaching, and fidelity in ministering your Word,
   that your people shall be partakers with them of the glory that
   shall be revealed; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives
   and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever
   and ever.
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:45:01 WST
From:         David Straface <xavier@PF.ADIED.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Christian Communities

I would like to hear from anyone belonging to a IBOC (International Brotherhood
of Communities) or Catholic Fraternity community.

Please mail direct

Thank You

David Straface
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 17:47:47 -0500
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      quick prayer request

Help!

Sorry to need assistance so early in the tenure of my second appearance,
but....

The church I am in is in severe crisis, and 5 people have left in the
past week and a half.  I am meeting tonight with two other converts
to find out what is going on.

We are in need of a miracle of illumination, and the wisdom of God
to lead us in the right direction.  I know not where I go from here...

Please pray.  thanks.  I'll let you know what happens.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:24:33 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A poll on praying.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: John R Laplante <jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>Subject: Re: A poll on praying.
>Message-id: <9301220109.AA29435@bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>Organization: The Ohio State University
>Date: 21 Jan 1993 20:09:13 -0500


I guess option b.
Don't have time to think of a biblical reference.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
john r la plante                             Department of Political Science
jrl+@osu.edu               THE Ohio State University (is there another one?)
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:43:00 PST
Reply-To:     nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was NATCHAT@TAMVM1
From:         NativeNet@GNOSYS.SVLE.MA.US
Subject:      I don't know

Original Sender: tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (TONYA PUONCEY)
Mailing List:    NATCHAT (nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us)

[ This article is being relayed from the Usenet "alt.native" newsgroup. ]

Uh, hi...
        I don't want to attract any flames whatsoever with this posting,
but it may happen.  I was reading the supposed 'UN definition' of 'indigenous
peoples' and it really struck me that although I really yearn to be connected
with my culture (irish/british/scotch/italian) I am just from New Jersey, and
'native' to that chemically wasted land only by birth and a couple generations
of people from Europe.
        I can identify with the 'alien' culture, i.e. being arrested, paying
1/4 - 1/3 of my wages to the government, having employers that don't give a
shit if my teeth fall out on the keyboard or have a registered car, etc. So
I really am anti-government in that the pompous assholes that run the show
do so for the sake of their own careers and what ever coke money they can
skim.  Of that I am convinced.  (By the Way, don't let my temp internet node
address fool you, I am just working as a temp. secretary for the next week
at Laurence Berkeley Labs!!!)
        So I make no claims to be a native American.  I feel that the treatment
of (in the US) minorities (by statistics, but who can believe them in CA?)
is horrible, but I have had guns pointed at me by cops and criminals alike
and I hate it!  I have never been shot thank the Goddess yet but I am afraid
that my lifestyle, which is really pro-family, pro-work, etc. is not bad but
the government 'above' and the  bums 'below' want to take it away from me!!!
        So I feel like or envision the police, etc. as an 'invading force' in
my life, although without them the laws they have enforced on me have
suppressed me enough so that in anarchy my house would be gutted, girlfriend
..  well you get the picture!  So I am just really at a loss, had a .22
pointed at me last night... I don't know why I am saying this here but I
want to help and heal the green eath
earth
oops!
93
peace.
-tom conlon
TEMP.ADDRESS: TONYA@CSA2.LBL.GOV
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:51:44 -0500
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Praying in tongues (was Re: centering prayer...)
              25 Jan 1993 16:41:00 GMT from
              <Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK>

Greetings,

   I have been at services where one person spoke in tongues and another interp
reted.  Everyone was praying, when suddenly, one voice started to rise above th
e others.  In one accord, the church fell silent and listened as this woman spo
ke in a voice so powerful, I felt she might bust open.  When she finished, ever
yone remained quiet, and my brother sitting next to me prayed that someone woul
d have the interpretation.  Another woman started to speak, again, in a very po
werful voice.  The cadence of her speech matched that of the other message almo
st exactly!   In other words, it was like listening to a beautiful poem in a fa
miliar measure spoken first in a foreign language, then repeated in English.

   IMHO, though, I believe we should practice disernment(sp?) when we pray in t
ongues.  If we are not careful, we may open ourselves to something or someone n
ot of God.  I have heard the story of a Korean minister visiting a sister churc
h in the States, having a bad experience.  During the prayer part of the servic
e, he walked around, praying with people, when he heard someone cursing him in
his own language.  A woman next to him was praying in what she believed was a s
piritual tongue, only to find out that she had been saying some rather nasty th
ings in Korean.

    Just some opinions....


Marissa Ratcliff                Document Delivery
University of GA                Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:52:26 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Countries Turning to God

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
>Subject: Re: Countries Turning to God
>Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:37:27 GMT

jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU> writes:

>Here is something that doesn't make sense. Of the very highest grossing
films
>of all time, none are "R" rated. In a market-driven industry such as the
>entertainment industry, this just doesn't make sense. If the money is made
>with films like the "Star Wars" trilogy, "ET", the Indiana Jones trilogy,
>etc., WHY does Hollywood continue to pump out one "R" rated film after
another?
>My guess is that there is a *power* behind this industry with an agenda to
>"kill, steal and destroy".

Or maybe it's becuase, once in a while, someone wants to make movies for
adults.
Sure, I love 'ET' and 'Star Wars', but I also like 'Good Fellas' and 'The
Godfather'. Try making them PG.

Or are you suggesting that films like that shouldn't be made?

P.
--

oorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive  P a u l   M o l o n e y    "I'm pretty witty and you're itty bitty
pe
james  Trinity College, Dublin     And isn't it a pity the city can't see?
vr

rownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
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Via: uk.ac.dundee.mcs; Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:22:01 +0000
Via: cardhu.mcs.dund.ac.uk; Fri, 22 Jan 93 15:22:39 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:22:39 GMT
From:         "Ian (Travolta) Wylie C2/Q2" <iwylie@MCS.DUNDEE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Ten Commandments.

Hi to all on Christia,

After reading a few comments by  others on the relevence of law to the new
testament Christian, I am compelled to write.

Jesus said "I am come NOT to destroy the law but to FULFILL it".

and another scripture that I can't quote exactly says, that Christ said that
we are not to take one letter away from the law.

There are only some laws which have passed away, i.e. the temple law because
Christ has taken our sins upon him.

But most of the law stands including the ten commandments.

If anyone on the list thinks otherwise, please do not say so unless you have
2 or 3 scriptures to back up you're argument, as the Bible commands.

It would do well if everyone would read "The Divine Law" by Rand, he is a top
lawyer in the states and very much on the ball scripturally.

Other references to the law are given by that man of God,
the Rev. Charles G. Finney.

If you think the old testament doesn't apply to you as a Christian, then
you are throwing away most of the Bible.

No flames intended.  ;~)



________________________________________________________________

"To live is to change. To be perfect is to have changed often."
                               -John Henry Newman

Name: Ian R. Wylie                 Email:  iwylie@uk.ac.dund.mcs
The University of Dundee
Great Britain
________________________________________________________________
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