HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: RPG's That Belong on Every Gamer's Shelf
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:29:32 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Lekskola, G|teborg, G|taland

In article <By32xw.Gu8@rice.edu> pound@ruf.rice.edu (Christopher Brian Pound) writes:
>3. Photocopies from Megatraveller World Builder's Handbook (SF)

  I think the combination of the WBH and photocopies of what DGP cut out
of Grand Survey and Grand Census to make the WBH is better:)

>Christopher Pound	+	I am human by my hands and my feet, my guts,

-bertil-
--
"Ack! Phht!" - Bill the Prez
From: tratclif@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Tracy Ratcliff)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Vampire vs. Hero vs. Gurps etc...(Long!)
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:23:26 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

In article <1992Nov19.020829.11782@nevada.edu> wildcard@nevada.edu ( WildCard !!) writes:
> [long and interesting comparison of the three deleted]

The presence or absence of atmosphere may not be a result of mechanics.  For
example Call of Cthulhu is hardly a mechanic-less system, but it still has
atmosphere.  I once had to spend an afternoon convincing a friend that it 
was just a game (Of course, WE know better! CTHULHU FTAGHN!!!).

Many frp'ers forget or ignore that frp is a literary endeavor, and such 
subjective things as style are just as important to a 'good' game as charts
and tables.  Chaosium is very good at style.

I do agree that GURPS is frequently lacking.  I was very disappointed in 
_Conan_ and _Witch World_.  They both seemed ... lifeless is the best word
I can think of.  On the other hand I was quite satisfied with _Uplift_
and (much to my surprise) _Psionics_.  _Uplift_ took several pages to 
explain the motivation of characters in that universe.  I bought _Psionics_
simply as a sourcebook, and the campaign setting is something I'd _never_
GM, the situation simply took hold of my imagination.  If after reading the 
rules of a game/supplement I spend the rest of the day daydreaming how 
characters would work, I consider it a good buy, and _Psionics_ did that.
The faults of _Conan_ and _Witch World_ are hardly in the mechanics since
well over half of them are simply descriptions of the worlds.
From: ingrid@helios.anu.edu.au (Ingrid Jakobsen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Names
Date: 20 Nov 1992 00:23:32 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.7.83

In article <1992Nov18.134023.1403@news.uit.no>, dago@stud.cs.uit.no (Dag-Frode Olsen) writes:
|> I got a nice Namelist posted from Per Beremark yesterday.
|> Thanx, most of my problems are history.... :-)

Lots of names deleted...

|> Alexia Falk, Queen of the Shadows (15)

I thought of 'Alexia' as a name myself once. Then I discovered that 
'alexia' = 'condition of being unable to read' (like dyslexia). The name 
can still be used, but it's a piece of trivia worth knowing if you do...

I've always liked  'Katisha' and 'Nanki-Poo' from Gilbert & Sullivan's 
'The Mikado'. 'Yum-Yum' as the name of the pretty young heroine is a 
little too much, but in the right campaign...

Ingrid Jakobsen 		ingrid@helios.anu.edu.au

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:53:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.194646.4806@news.tufts.edu> gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris) writes:
>
>	Well, it would be, but I don't thin anyone has implied that yet 
>(at least not in the current thread).  The criticism of the GURPS character
>creation rules is not that interesting characters cannot be made with them,
>but rather that the points system gives bizarre and counterintuitive results,
>like a character being cheaper with a higher DX, or with Eidetic Memory, or
>that it is not even close to being balanced, as trying to make the World's
>Greatest Musician and the World's Greatest Martial Artist on the same number
>of points would demonstrate.
>

Is it possible to have a PA system in which there are distinctive skill
levels and meaningful stats and in which it is not possible to come up
with a non-optimized character that is less effective in every way
then a similar but optimized character?  The PA systems that I know 
(mostly GURPs and HERO, in this context) of generally have better ways of 
designing most anything.  The only PA system I know of that does not
have this flaw is The Fantasy Trip, but that was fairly primitive and
did not have skill levels independent of stats.

Come to think of it, this objection applies to random systems also.  It
is just that, in random systems, the most effective character will be
the one where the player rolled the dice well, while in PA systems the
most effective character will be the one where the player did a good
job of designing him to be more effective.

Come to think of it, this objection applies to life as well.  People with
natural talent for an endeavor will tend to be better in that endeavor
than people without, given the same amount of study, practice, etc.

So, can anyone point me to a system where, given characters A and B
that have equal points, levels, experience, etc, A cannot be more
effective then B in everything?
From: gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:54:27 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

In article <1992Nov17.234504.9476@sarah.albany.edu> gm1116@albnyvms.bitnet writes:
>"As it is, you can create the World's Best Linguist for far fewer points
>than you could create the World's Best Martial Artist" - paraphrased
>
>umm, if your arguing for HERO better than GURPS(which I agree with)
>you just used an extremely BAD example since the same holds true for
>both HERO and GURPS.

	You have to remember, however, that many GURPS advocates on the net
claim that point costs are set with regard to difficulty or rarity rather
than balance.  Now, the WBLinguist is going to be exactly as rare as teh
WBMartial Artist, and it will probably be equally difficult to achieve
that status (or at least of comparable difficulty).  Thus, if what these
advocates claim is true, it *should* cost a comparable number of points 
to create these two characters.  That it doesn't indicates that their
claim is false.

	However, HERO doesn't claim that point costs are assigned with any-
thing else in mind but balance.  Thus, since being the WBLinguist is far
from unbalancing in most campaigns, it can be much cheaper without contra-
dicting the avowed philosophy.

	This would be acceptable for GURPS, as well, if the pricing scheme
were consistant with *some* philosophy, be it balance, difficulty, or 
rarity.  Since it is not consistant with any of these, it is difficult
to generalize the point costs to new advantages or whatever, and can easily
lead to undesired results.

>  <no doubt correct cost analysis deleted>

>Badger
--
gharris@jade.tufts.edu          
George W. Harris              	"He'd kill us if he had the chance."  
Dept. of Mathematics            
Tufts University              			The Conversation
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: RPG's That Belong on Every Gamer's Shelf
Date: 22 Nov 1992 04:20:51 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu


	Hmmm.  Well.... <in no particular order>

	1> Storyteller (aka Vampire, Werewolf, Mummy, etc).  Even if you
don't like the rules (I'm opposed to any game that names you roll a handfull 
of dice, so I'm working on converting it to a straight d10 roll), the 
supplements (Chicago By Night esp.) are rich in source material.

	2> Torg - A great system, allowing any mix and match of genres.
The interactive Infiniverse concept is great.

	3> AD&D - I still play it, after all these years.  I don't run it
(too expen$ive), but it's still fun to play.

	Paranoia's fun for a one-shot or two.  I hear TFOS is good too,
but never had the chance to play.  I'm not a big fan of Hero and GURPS,
as I don't like "spreadsheet" character generation.  I like point based
systems, but Hero and GURPS let a good thing get out of control.
	
	"That's a 50 pt EB in a VPP with an IIF, plus the AID." - sigh
-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Superman's not just dead, he's wrapped in plastic.-Houston Chronicle (11/19/92)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Subject: Re: RPG's That Belong on Every Gamer's Shelf
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:46:03 GMT


Top five RPG systems for your gaming shelf (in not particular order):

1. AD&D.  Because it is the most popular I recommend knowing how to
play it.  Knowing AD&D increases the number of people you'll be able
to game with at clubs and conventions, and this game has more support
than any other game (follow-on products, gaming worlds, organized
clubs (like RPGA), etc.).

2. GURPS or Hero.  A multi-genre system is a good idea, particularly
for comparing things of different genres with an apples and apples
approach.  Of these two I'd recommend GURPS; a classic ground-breaking
system that has stood the test of time.

3. Star Wars.  I think this is the best sci-fi game ever produced.
It's simple, it has a rich environment, and there's plenty of action
if that's what you want.

4. A setting game, like RuneQuest, Jorune, Empire of the Petal Throne, 
or Talislanta.  There's an advantage to having a game system that's
tailored toward the philosophy and approach of a world.  Pick the
world you like best; I'd not recommend EPT as strongly as the other
three simply because it's not currently in print, which means that it
will be difficult to find support material and other gamers.

5. A storytelling game.  Ars Magica or Over The Edge are good
(although OTE is by a small company so its support may not be as
reliable as Ars Magica's).  Might as well see what all the talk's
about.

Top 5 supplements for RPGer shelves (in no particular order):

1. The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.  While not directly an RPG
product, this is good for GMs who want to "know" instead of just
"guess."

2. "Standard" reference books, like encyclopedias, a dictionary, a
thesaurus, and a couple books on names.

3. Arduin Grimoire, Vol 1-3.  This is old, probably out of print, and
definately datesd, but it's just crammed full of little jewels like
different types of fantasy diseases, special ability tables, crit &
fumble tables, lots-o-spells, NPCs, really bad jokes, and, oh, I could
go on and on.  It's probably cheap too, considering how poorly
produced they are.

4. The Citibook series.  A good system independent series of
supplements for a fantasy city.

5. The "Orders."  The Primal Order is the only one out--we're working
on the rest.  Yes I know this is a shameless plug, but the funny thing
is that these books are intended to be exactly this--books that are
general reference books gamemasters, books that will become classics
and stand the test of time.  Yes I know that's ambitious, but why
should we aim low?  Anyways, the Orders are designed to take a given
topic and address it in depth.  The first was on mythology, the next
one will be on warfare: after that, economics then governmental
systems.  Topics that haven't been addressed very well yet in the RPG
comunity.

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
From: news@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Medieval Pain-in-the-Arse
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:26:08 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1e970oINN3tq@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:

Yet again, regarding my post....

>Then again, I do not run games that snare the player first, then change
>in their feel.  I inform the players of what I am trying to do, and
>expect them to help me, not hinder me or blindly insist on thier sacred
>character conceptions.  Sir, were you to be in one of my games, I fear
>you will find it to your liking, and such 'constraints' nearly imperc-
>eptible.

I suspect you might find one of *my* games quite amusing, too!
I make no great claims for my GM-ing abilities, but dozens of
happy players can't be wrong, now, can they? Anecdote: I have,
in fact, been guilty in the past of stealing players away from
other GMs by virtue of the fact that I allowed more scope in
choosing characters, relied less on artificial plot devices to
control the campaign, and still managed to construct absorbing
and meaningful plots. I, too, announce my intentions up front.
I have little respect for GMs who do not, and none for GMs who
mislead. Moreover, as a player, I have never robbed a GM or
another player of his/her fun...nor do I allow my players to
do so. If any one thinks that the style I espouse comes hand-
in-hand with abusive characters and meaningless plots, we
can go to email and slug it out: I think my point is well-made.
It is close-mindedness, and perhaps the fear of one day being
upstaged by a more creative and liberal GM, which is motivating
most of the shots fired across my bow, here, I feel.

>Pascal, n.:
> A programming language named after a man who would turn over in
>his grave if he knew about it.

_______________________________________________________________________
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|              Mary?"              |  *** Roach Powder, 50% off! ***  |
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|        -from Eraserhead.         |        -->Who are you?<--        |
|__________________________________|__________________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Subject: Re: new rec.games.frp.* groups
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481 
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:43:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.001109.1@wharton.upenn.edu> millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>
>Don't worry. You're doing fine. Your posts make sense. Keep on posting.
	 
Hmm, gee it's very difficult to think of something to say when we agree on
so much <grin>...but I thank you very much for the encouragement :).  I
think I'd hate to be on the other side of you in any discussion :).
>
> If they pay
>attention they'll eventually notice us in advocacy and misc, and by that
>time they might be versed enough in net manners to make a positive
>contribution to advocacy, misc and especially to archives, which is my
>favorite among the new groups. (subliminal message: Please post more
>stuff to archives) We might even get some defenders of xdnd in advocacy!
>Wouldn't that be a change?!

I was real tempted to leave your entire post, as I think it was worth reading
again, but I deleted some for the net.gods who have to pay the expense of
all this stuff.  However, I'm leaving this part as it does seem really 
important to me.

I'll try and get some stuff together for .advocacy and maybe all those who
are interested in a .campaign group could do that for awhile as well, before
they consider starting another group with some similarities to the present
very low-volume one.  I think there are many people who don't post finished
campaign material as they hope to publish it one day (like me).  Yet I can't
see that putting a small part of my work on the net is really gonna make it
unpublishable, and I'm sure to get some reasonable feedback.  Maybe all those
aspiring game/scenario writers will give it a try as well?
>
>Assuming you're using rn, just put the following lines in any extremely
>active killfile.
>
>/RFD/:M
>/CFV/:M
>
>Now if a RFD or CFV comes up you will still catch it.
>
Good!  Mebbe someone should post this on news.groups into the discussion of
what information should come to users, and in what form so they can 
participate in formal discussions and votes?  I don't know how to forward the
article to another group, or I would do it myself...(I'm kinda computer
illiterate :).  In any case, thanks for the info!

[Much other interesting stuff deleted for the net.gods]
				Laura Mollett

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mhickey@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (No One Of Importance)
Subject: Re: Vampire vs. Hero vs. Gurps etc...(Long!)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 04:49:40 GMT

Wildcard, you'll get no flame from me!!!

I think it is great that someone else likes Vampire for what it is.
Vampire is a ROLE-playing game in the truest since.

I have played both GURPS and Champions, and I like their systems a
lot.  Their game mechanics are well thought out.  With both, if a
player or GM has a question about how something should be done, it
can most likely be found in the rules.  I do like that.
However, neither system can hope to match Vampire as a ROLE-playing
game.  They were not written to be like that.  Their rules are
what can make them very entertaining, just as Vampire's 'lack' of
rules can make it fun to play.

Vampire stresses that it is a game of stories, not die rolls.  In
order to stop arguements of who shot who first, it does have some 
rules.  These rules are not the heart of the game.  Instead, the
role-playing of characters, the setting, and the plot are what
make the game interesting.  A good Vampire game is a lot like a
good book.  Both generally have well-developed characters, a vivid
setting, and a fascinating plot.

That isn't to say that GURPS and Champions can't have these elements.
But, I think players are attracted to these two for different
reasons.  I, for one, like GURPS _becuase_ of its rules.  I like
having a good rule for nearly anything I can think of.  But, I
have to admit that the rules do take a little something away from the
role-playing.  It can be hard to stay in character when you are
looking something up in a book or answering a question about the
rules.  

I think Vampire does what it was written to do very well.  The game
may not appeal to some people, and it may be great fun to others.
It isn't and was never intended to be a combat simulator.  Other 
games like GURPS and Champions have _far_ better rules, and if it
is rules that one wants, then I don't suggest Vampire.  However,
if one wants the opportunity to play a role-playing instead of a
roll-playing game, Vampire is a great choice!


No One Of Importance


.............................................................
:     "Who are you?"      :     "No one of importance."     :   
:  "I really must know."  :  "Get used to disappointment."  :  
:.........................:.................................:
:    -Princess Bride      :    mhickey@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu     :
:.........................:.................................:
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: RPG's That Belong on Every Gamer's Shelf
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 06:12:05 GMT


Hmmmm .... My shelf (currently):

1)  RoleMaster.  I realize this is, sadly, a minority opinion, but I frankly
consider this to be just about the best system on the market.  Incredibly
flexible for both the GM and player, and heavily weighted toward roleplay
over hack'n'slash.

2)  Shadowrun.  Great idea but unfortunately muddled mechanics.

3)  Ringworld.  An ancient leftover.  ;)

4)  Car Wars.  Not roleplay, but it's on the same shelf.  ;)

5)  SpaceMaster.  Not that great by itself, but a nice "tech" supplement to
RoleMaster.

6)  Cyberspace.  Basically crap by itself, but nice "cyber" rules additions
fo RoleMaster/Spacemaster.

7)  AD&D.  Supplemental material for other "real" games.  Also useful if I'm
playing in someone else's game and they insist on bottom of the barrel
mechanics.

8)  DragonQuest.  Bought it years ago.  It has a few nice ideas.

9)  ElfQuest.  It looked interesting.  I really don't remember at all what the
mechanics are like.

10)  RuneQuest.  Nice system.  I played it until I discovered RoleMaster.

11)  Champions.  (OK, technically I don't own this one; but it's the only
system I've been extensively involved with that I DON'T actually own a copy
of myself.)  Character creation is overly complex and far too easily abused.
The mechanics aren't bad if you don't mind spending an entire evening fighting
one relatively small battle.


Games I don't own but would like to:

1)  Cyberpunk.  The REAL genre game!

2)  Torg.  What little I know of it sounds very interesting, both in terms of 
gameworld and game mechanics.

3)  Toon.  I've been a cartoon freak for almost thirty years.  What more need
be said?

4)  Amber.  I find the idea of "diceless" roleplaying incomprehensible, but
fascinating.

5)  Storyteller.  I've heard people who love it, and people who hate it.  I
wanna know what the arguments are about.  ;)


I'm sure there are a few others that I'd like to at least see, but I can't 
think of what they are at the moment.

	Darryl


 /------------------------------------------------\
 | dburgdor @unmcvm.unmc.edu or @cwis.unomaha.edu |
 \------------------------------------------------/
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 17:34:58 GMT

bell@beethoven.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
>sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>>Certainly not every character
>>will be as "powerful" as the next character - fortunately, that's not
>>an issue in my group.  We *are* balanced in that we all play
>>interesting characters that we want to play - and GURPS *does* allow
>>you to do that very well.

>GURPS doesn't -- ignoring the rules allows you to do that.  

Strange, I could have sworn I'd made some interesting characters that
I've enjoyed playing.  However Mr. Bell informs me this is not
possible, so I guess I've been mistaken all these years ... sorry.  I
wonder how he knows?  Has he been snooping on my gaming sessions all
these years?

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy