From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Silver Spring monkeys
Organization: WP Group
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:19:43 GMT


James M Hoskins writes:
jh> b) In allowing the monkeys to suffer, in awaiting opportunities 
jh> to photograph them suffering, was not Alex in effect allowing 
jh> these individuals to suffer (unlawfully) so that other monkeys 
jh> and lab animals in the future would not have to be subjected to 
jh> similar conditions.  Contrast and compare this manner of thinking 
jh> to that of a medical researcher like Greg Popken who says, "I 
jh> need to (lawfully) sacrifice these mice now, until we get to a 
jh> point that we will not have to sacrifice any mice." 

In article <C03yJ5.KqJ@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
rl> Does Greg Popken view the misuse of animals as the lesser of the evils?
rl> Or, does he simply dismiss the misuse of animals altogether?   What
rl> exactly are the "needs" that motivate his use of mice?

From article <1992Dec31.174728.12414@samba.oit.unc.edu>, by itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken):
gp> You have the most incredible ability to answer (or not answer) 
gp> questions with questions. Have you ever read Guildenstern and 
gp> Rosencranzs Are Dead?

In order to analyze a problem critically, I need to understand the
underlying assumptions.   In a previous posting, you stated that
it's wrong to torture a human, not because torture is thoroughly
unpleasant, but because humans have rights.  Such statements have
led me to wonder whether you see anything wrong with the way that
animals are often treated in our society.  If my suspicions are correct
the misuse of animals isn't the lesser of the evils in your view;
rather it's simply not an evil at all... provided, of course, that the
perpetrators have an excuse that fits within your norms. 

gp> What do you mean by misuse of animals?  You can't be refering to 
gp> "lawful" research.  Which is what I am involved in.
gp>
gp> In the case of valid, accredited research I view the *use* of 
gp> animals as a necessity.  I make every attempt to minimize the 
gp> number of animals used and the amount of "suffering" they 
gp> experience.  In this sense you can can say that I believe the use 
gp> animals is the lesser of the "evils".  I don't enjoy the use of 
gp> animals.  I derive no perverse pleasure from it.  (I don't like to 
gp> go to the denist either.  But I do.) 
gp>
gp> The *misuse* of animals I do not condone or tolerate.

You say that your research is a "necessity", but how do you 
define the term?  As an example, would you say that affluent 
women "need" to wear fur coats?  Or that human beings "need" to 
consume cows and chickens?  Or that hunters "need" to shoot ducks 
and deer for sport?  

gp> RE: "needs" that motivate my use of mice.  Since the begining of 
gp> time (no I don't have a ref.) health problems have plaqued (no 
gp> pun intented) man.  I feel that preventing the suffering of 
gp> Humans is one of the highest ethical responsibilities of all 
gp> persons.  In addition, I have an ability, a knack, a disposition 
gp> (whatever you wish to call it) for scientific investigation of 
gp> biological phenomena.  My motivation for doing scientific 
gp> research is a combination of those two ideas.  My motivation for 
gp> using mice is simply that it is the most reliable model, I can 
gp> find, that will alow me to complete the task at hand.  

Vis-a-vis the history of human suffering, how do you think health
problems would be ranked versus the problems caused by human 
selfishness and greed?

Incidently, one of the "Putting People First" folks posted an article
that cited health problems as a reasonable excuse for animal research,
but when I asked him if he was in favor of political reforms that
would improve the quality and availability of health care for his fellow 
citizens, he sent me an email reply in which he ranted on and on
about his unwillingness to support "freeloaders".  Is there a connection
between his callous views about humans and his views about non-humans?

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals