From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 08 Jan 93 12:58 PST
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Nf-ID: #R:1hs8brEINNfle@uni-erlangen.de:-1634168734:cdp:1678600070:000:6808
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  8 12:58:00 1993


>   Are you one of those who grieves for the poor? Can you give a
>single example of their plight being caused by other accumulating
>wealth? Are you now giving your substance to help the homeless, the
>poor, the disadvantaged? Do you live in a cardboard box so you can
>give the equivalent of a house payment to the poor. Do you eat garbage
>so you can spend your earnings to feed the hungry? What have you done
>to help these miserable wretches?
>
>   Or are you part of the legions of hypocites that like to attend
>marches when the weather's nice, spend hundreds of dollars each year
>on books and magazines that tell what you want to hear? What kind of
>car to drive, how many cars do you own, how many TVs, VCRs, tell us
>about your stereo, your computers, your furniture, the artwork you've
>collected. Show us the receipts for the clothes you've bought for you
>and yours this last year. Your protests degrade you and your cause.
>
>Bill

Is this supposed to generate flames or are you serious?  In either
case I take serious offense to this.  Let me simply say that for
me, I have chosen to live a simple life style for these and other
reasons.  While the actual amount I give to the poor is an issue
between me and God, I can assure you it is substantial.  I have
a single economy car which is 6 years old and has 80,000 miles.
My stereo is about 20 years old.  I have two TVs -- one is a used
13" color TV which I traded for some old furniture 7 years ago.
The other is a 12" B&W and I have no idea how old it is.  All
of my furniture is second or third hand and probably more than
30 years old, or it was bought a discount stores like K-Mart.
I do not remember buying any clothes this last year except 
underwear, a work shirt and a sports jacket at a discount store.
I only got the sports jacket because I was invited to speak at
a public forum with our Congressman and I didn't currently have
one.  I did get a new VCR three years ago as a gift and I don't
subscribe to cable.  I have no artwork other than the crafts which
I get from family and friends as gifts.  I did buy a nice computer
a little more than a year ago, but I use it almost exclusively
for Green organizing.

As I answer your questions, it occurs to me that I am perhaps
a little proud of this simple life style.  But, when I look
around and see the poverty, I still feel as though I am not
doing enough.  You know, the funny thing is, is that when I
look around and see the life styles and incomes of many of my
other fellow Greens, I realize that I am living extravagantly
compared to them.

Bill, I think your criticisms of Greens being hypocrits are very,
very far off the mark.  We either are the "poor" whom you suggest
we that we grieve for, or we take our commitment to "Personal
Responsibility" (one of our 10 Key Values) very seriously.  (I am not
suggesting the poor don't take personal responsibility seriously.)
Many of us are "downwardly mobile" and many more would like to be.

We are not a group of wealthy liberal intellectuals.  We are regularly
involved in the life and death struggles of ordinary people and their
environment.  Your ignorance of The Greens "degrade you and your cause."

> ... surely you must know that no one is going to voluntarily choose to
> return to that benighted world [of Benedictine communities].

Speak for yourself, I know many.

> ... the reference to unions always wanting more. I assume American Labor
> Unions are the target here. If you can spare the time I'd suggest you study
> the matter somewhat ...

No actually, the reference was to European Unions, but in any case, the
point was that one of the criticisms that The Greens in Germany had with
the traditional left was their materialism.  As I further clarified the
point, I indicated that many on the left currently do not consider
that they are materialists.  And, yes I have studied the
matter somewhat....

> Their protest wasn't to gain a higher standard of living but to
> simply make a living, to get their kids out of the sweatshops, to get
> some kind of compensation for injury and death on the job. Can you
> really believe the anti-labor propaganda, that's become so
> fashsionable among Corporate America?

If you would have read what I have written on this topic before writing
you would have been clear that understood the validity and struggles of
the Labor Movement.

>  Would you have us return to the 19th century, living in hovels owned by
> the company that employs us, indebted to the Company Store, putting our
> kids to work at 9 or 10 years old just to earn enough to feed your family?

PLEASE!!! Read what I have written before composing a response.  My entire
point is this is not what I want, but that I am fearful that at the rate
we are going, this is what we might get.

> Can you explain why material prosperity is evil, why I should [feel]
> guilty for wanting it?

I am not suggesting that material prosperity is evil.  Only that the
prosperity is being very poorly distributed, and that this planet
cannot continue to support continuous material growth.  Also, I am
not suggesting that you feel guilty (your actions are much more
important than your feelings anyway), but rather that we need to
reduce our consumption.

> According to some enviromentalists even one human is too many.

If you would have read the discussions, it would have been clear
that The Green Party is not among those.  In fact, even the
misanthropy (human-hating) of those who support "deep ecology"
has been seriously overstated.  You may want to read the book
"Discussions with Murray Bookchin and Dave Forman" (I am not sure
of the title) on this subject.  It turns out that Murray Bookchin
(social ecology) and Dave Foreman (deep ecology) agree on many
things, including repudiating misanthropy.

Dale

P.S. Bill, I found many of your comments flippant and disrespectful.
I have tried to respond respectfully assuming that you were just
trying to find a way to get involved in the discussion.  I have
also tried to maintain as high a level of discourse on this newsgroup
as possible.  Each of us are deeply sensitive and compassionate human
beings who are trying in our own ways to understand the problems
of the world.  We may have different approaches or different opinions
or different levels of education, but we are struggling together and
need to learn to understand and respect each other.  In fact, in the
long run it won't really matter who was right or who was wrong, who
won or who lost, or who could write the most clever "flames".  The
important thing will be whether we worked to make the world a better
place, whether we walk lightly on our environment, and most of all,
whether we treat each other with the deep respect which we would
would want for ourselves.

(Sermon over)

Peace.
u.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens