HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: acs.ucalgary.ca!bishop (Lionel Richard Clark)
Subject: Conclusions...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:36:15 GMT

Original-Sender: acs.ucalgary.ca!bishop (Lionel Richard Clark)

  I have noticed a few things as well...  just as an aside..

  There are two general classes of readers for oobe...

1) the people who believe in OOBE and related phenomena (Telepathy, et al)
2) those who do not, the skeptics.

  There are also two general classes of people.

1)  those who have experienced OOBE and related phenomena
2)  those who have not.

  What I wouls like to know is, why is it that the people who are in group one
above, are almost sure to be in group one, below?  It seems that the only way
to make someone believe in something like that is for them to be the one who
is actually experiencing it.  It seems that the most powerful evidence is the
ONLY evidence here.  Those that have not experienced anything of the sort seem
to be constantly searching their minds for the scam-angle of these events or
tales that must surely exist.  Those who have experienced what, to them, appear to be an OOBE or similar type of experience, believe with everything they are
worth.

  Why is there no middle ground?

  p.s. Tarzan - Tnx.

 - bishop..

  "Me and my damning blue shirt"
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: OOBE or just vivid imagination
From: dkarma@netlink.cts.com (Druta Karma)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 16:38:58 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

peterf@ariel.yorku.ca (Peter Forth) writes:

> Basically I percieve two sides to the argument:
> 
> 1) OOBE's are imaginary.  That is to say an OOBE consists of reordering and
> replaying old memories in a creative, vivid, coeherant fashion.  The entire
> experience consists of either old sensory "input" (memories), variations on t
> 
> 2) OOBE's provide a method outside the usual 5 senses to obtain new, current
> input from ones surroundings.  Whether anything actually leaves the body is
> debatable but really beside the point.
> 
> I currently support the first of the two options but would very much like to
> be persuaded into supporting the second.  This is not however necessarily

I would check out Michael Sabom's book titled Recollections of Death: A 
Medical Investigation. Sabom, who was a cardiologist at the Emory 
University Medical Center at the time he did his study, investigated 
cardiac arrest patients who reported  OOBEs. He did a very careful study, 
using a control group of patients who did not report OOBEs. He found that 
the control group subjects were not able to describe their resusitation 
procedures, while a statistically significant number of the OOBE patients 
were able to describe details of the specific procedures they underwent, 
even though they should have been totally unconscious at the time. In his 
book, Sabom goes through a great deal of trouble to deal with all the 
usual kinds of objections and counterarguments. If Sabom is correct, then 
your option number 2 is a distinct possibility. 

Druta Karma

--                    
INTERNET:  dkarma@netlink.cts.com (Druta Karma)
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NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: chad@CHEMISTRY.UTAH.EDU (Chad Smith)
Subject: Try This!
Organization: University of Utah
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:23:36 GMT

	Here's a neat experience for any OOBE'ers out there.  Try visiting
Stonehenge.  I know of three people who saw the same things there as I
did.  It is a very powerful place to visit in an astral form.  If anyone
has done this, or attempts this, email me.

Chad Smith

Hint:look on top of the stones.

___________________________________________________________________________
Standard disclaimer, etc.
return email:Chad@hydrogen.chem.utah.edu
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley)
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:17:12 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer
Followup-To: alt.out-of-body

In article <1992Nov15.024008.22902@gnosys.svle.ma.us>,
gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) wrote:

(deletions)

> 
> Really, folks - why can't those of us who are interested just go out and
> spend some time actually reading what these people have to say, so we can
> have an informed discussion, rather than just exchanging personal opinion,
> laced with slurs on one another and our gullibility or enslavement to some
> outmoded scientific paradigm? 

Yes! That is partly what I was getting at when I mentioned the effects that
listening to many personal accounts of NDE's had on people like Moody,
Morse, Ring, and Kubler-Ross. For those of us who have not heard many
personal narratives of NDE's, simply reading excerpts of accounts in books
by the above authors is quite impressive. The NDE-ers were almost without
exception profoundly moved and changed by the experience, and their
descriptions of the experience have made a deep impact on the interviewers.
There are a number of accounts of the attending physicians being shaken by
the accounts given by patients they rescue from near-death.

Lorin Hawley
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley)
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:12:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer
Followup-To: alt.out-of-body

In article <1992Nov18.102731.14342@gnosys.svle.ma.us>,
gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) wrote:
> 
> In <1992Nov17.184737.15907@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
> 	(Robert McGrath) writes:
> 
> > In article <1992Nov17.141041.2162@spdcc.com>, gst@spdcc.com
> 	(Gary S. Trujillo) writes in part:
> >> My point is that I'd prefer to talk at a greater level of specificity.

(deletions)

> All well and good.  I'd just personally prefer to start with something
> written by someone who is more "in tune" with the experience itself, and
> who has, in Lorin's words, "been swayed to a belief."  We may want to
> ourselves evaluate the belief, and Blackmore's writings might be helpful,
> but I'd just like to start with something by someone who is more "sympa-
> thetic" to the notion that there may be something other than mental events
> going on in OBEs.
> 
> Gary
> --

Glad to see this discussion evolve to the point where we can all look at
the same evidence and talk about it! 

I have as much respect for the scientific method (my training is in
science) as I do for the intellectual integrity which refuses to dismiss or
explain away an event like an NDE (and the effect it has on the experiencer
and those who talk to the experiencer). Something is going on here which
changes people's lives, and we don't really know what it is. Yet.

Unfortunately I likely have little to contribute as regards reading
recommendations. Besides Ring's two books, I've read Moody's popular books
Life After Life, Reflections on Life After Life, and The Light Beyond;
Moody can take risks in this format which he couldn't get away with in a
scientific peer-reviewed journal, such as saying he (and other NDE
researchers) do in fact believe in "something" which survives physical
death. Melvin Morse recently published a book on children's near death
experiences (I don't have the title handy, I loaned my copy out) which
makes fascinating reading - the children's accounts are virtually parallel
to adults', except the life review is, of course, shorter. Of Susan
Blackmore I've only read some journal articles and her review article -
recommended reading - in the Skeptical Inquirer several issues back. 

There are a number of other "classic" books and papers referenced in the
above books, and anyone who can especially recommend any should do so!

- Lorin Hawley
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
Date: 18 Nov 92 10:27:31 GMT

In <1992Nov17.184737.15907@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
	(Robert McGrath) writes:

> In article <1992Nov17.141041.2162@spdcc.com>, gst@spdcc.com
	(Gary S. Trujillo) writes in part:
>> My point is that I'd prefer to talk at a greater level of specificity.

> My comments are at exactly the same level of specificity as everyone
> else's.

My remark was not directed personally at Robert.  My suggestion is to every-
one involved in the discussion.  I'm suggesting that we "get down to cases,"
and that whoever is interested in really talking about this subject analyti-
cally agree to read some certain books, or certain agreed-on sections thereof,
so that we can fairly evaluate what is said.

>> But how about a reading project?  Does anyone know what Ken Ring or Raymond
>> Moody has written recently...

> Fine.  I should point out that Blackmore'e "Beyond the Body" was based
> on her study of the archives of the SPR in London, which contain one
> of the largest collections of anecdotal accounts.  The book also has
> over 100 references, including the classic collections of anecdotes.

All well and good.  I'd just personally prefer to start with something
written by someone who is more "in tune" with the experience itself, and
who has, in Lorin's words, "been swayed to a belief."  We may want to
ourselves evaluate the belief, and Blackmore's writings might be helpful,
but I'd just like to start with something by someone who is more "sympa-
thetic" to the notion that there may be something other than mental events
going on in OBEs.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: ACADLAB2@LMUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: OOBE?
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:40:31 GMT
Organization: LOYOLA MARYMOUNT UNIV - CENTER FOR ACADEMIC COMPUTING

This happened to me a few years ago.

I was at my aunt's house babysitting my cousin when I decided to take a short
nap.  Shortly after I began to dream, atleast I think so.  In my dream I was
looking down at myself sleeping.  Then I heard a noise coming from the kitchen
and I decided that I had better go see what my cousin was up to.  Then I woke
up.  Later when I was thinking about my dream, I realized that in it I was
wearing exactly the same thing as I wore in waking life.  This struck me as
weird because in my dreams I NEVER have on the same clothes that I an actually
wearing.Also, whenever I dream of a place that I know, except my house, it is
ALWAYS distorted, but in this dream the room looked exactly the same.  Was this
an OOBE?  Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kris
From: Tarzan
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Tarzan, a lack of clues?
Date: 17 Nov 92 20:03:48 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research

.....TEAR DOWN THE WALL!!   TEAR DOWN THE WALL!!   TEAR DOWN THE WALL!!
>
> - Bishop P Juris, Magistrate
>

O.K  O.K  You guys are right.  I have no clue as to my e mail address becauwe I
am at work and am too hard of a worker (scared) to see if I have one.  You
know, the work ethic and all.  And I agree that personal mail can really
clutter up the group so I will do my part as best I can.  I am really glad this
group exists though because it is very hard to find people who are interested
in Meta physical life. Thanks for the comments Leonard and Gary and all the
rest who obvuiously are sincerely interested in OOBE's.
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: morale@jec303.its.rpi.edu (Enrique Morales)
Subject: Re: Conclusions...
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:04:04 GMT

acs.ucalgary.ca!bishop (Lionel Richard Clark) writes:

>Original-Sender: acs.ucalgary.ca!bishop (Lionel Richard Clark)

>  I have noticed a few things as well...  just as an aside..

>  There are two general classes of readers for oobe...

>1) the people who believe in OOBE and related phenomena (Telepathy, et al)
>2) those who do not, the skeptics.

>  There are also two general classes of people.

>1)  those who have experienced OOBE and related phenomena
>2)  those who have not.

>  What I wouls like to know is, why is it that the people who are in group one
>above, are almost sure to be in group one, below?
This is not necessarily true, just more frequent.

  It seems that the only way
>to make someone believe in something like that is for them to be the one who
>is actually experiencing it. 
This is only logical. Is that the way science works? Even against itself
(If I may be allowed to use the fallacy of pesonalization of science).


 It seems that the most powerful evidence is the
>ONLY evidence here.  Those that have not experienced anything of the sort seem
>to be constantly searching their minds for the scam-angle of these events or
>tales that must surely exist.  Those who have experienced what, to them, appear to be an OOBE or similar type of experience, believe with everything they are
>worth.
Again this not necessarily true.


>  Why is there no middle ground?
What would that be?

If you mean 1 in the top and 2 in bottom, there may be.
If you mean 2 in the top and 1 in bottom, there are.

If you mean people who have experienced, but are unsure, there are.
If you mean anything else, please explain yourself.


>  p.s. Tarzan - Tnx.

> - bishop..

>  "Me and my damning blue shirt"


Enrique
"What's this button for?..." <click>  KABOOM!!!!!
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silv
From: Robert_Sutton@kcbbs.gen.nz (Robert Sutton)
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:48:26 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand

gst@spdcc.com(Gary S.Trujillo) 17 Nov 1992 14:10:41 GMT   types--
>But how about a reading project?Does anyone know what Ken Ring or Raymond 
>Moody has written recently.

Well I've heard Ring has written The Omega Project.Haven't alas been 
able to get my hands on a copy but I think it (in part at least) is  
about NDEs & their relation if any to other experiances.

What about a few pertinent & appropriate book/journal article reviews?

And my old plea for trying to get some experiments on the cards?

********************************************************************** 
 If it's alt.oobe doesnt that mean it aint?
******************************************************************************
**********************************************************          ***88 
********************************************************

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: pbray@gluttony.reed.edu (Peter Bray)
Subject: re: How to get out o' my body?
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:54:24 GMT



This is my first time looking at this group since I didn't expect much  
serious talk about this.  I am somewhat knowledgable in traditional  
techniquest to elicit astral projection.  If I remember, Monroe's  
technique was something like this:

lie down and relax.  relaxation is best induced by progressive relaxation  
or some form of imagery mediatation.  progressive relaxation, essentially,  
is you clench each muscle group and then relax it completely. going from  
your feet to your head.  then you imagine a thing blue line shooting out  
of your forehead and up into the cosmos (?)... you then imagine yourself  
slowly starting to rise up along this line... in other words, imagine the  
line as a magnet lifting your feet up... you should try to harbour  
"vibrations" which should occur natrually at this stage... these are  
rather easy to acheive and something that you should be able to do  
successfully before any attempt at ap... vibratoins feel very strange.. it  
is, supposedly, your astral body (or kundalini) shaking itself free from  
your physical body... concentrate on the vibrations and try to make them  
increase... focus them on particular areas... do not force anything...  
each night try to relax more deeply... it will take a few months, or in my  
case years, before you ap.

this is a really really bad summary.. i have to go meet my gf so i will  
post, possibly, a continuation later... i know several other techniques  
that i will post later... if you have any specific questions email me  
directly...

peter
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Pple With Experience: Please Post !!!
From: jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 07:18:58 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

> Hi all: this is just a request to all pple having oobes, that they post
> their expereinces.  I feel this will allow all of us oobe-ers/non-oobe-ers
> to gain a certain perspective of the oobe world, in somone elses eyes.
> Plus, I feel, we could maybe really add some stuff that we might stumble
> upon into out FAQ.
> 
> Kumar

Yeah!  (And Robert ... just stifle yourself this time ... ;-)

--                    
INTERNET:  jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jim
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:13:37 EST
From: Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Pple With Experience: Please Post !!!

Hi all: this is just a request to all pple having oobes, that they post
their expereinces.  I feel this will allow all of us oobe-ers/non-oobe-ers
to gain a certain perspective of the oobe world, in somone elses eyes.
Plus, I feel, we could maybe really add some stuff that we might stumble
upon into out FAQ.

Kumar
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: physical/non-physical/science/religion (was Re: message...)
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:34:17 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <9211131328.AA09748@animus.Corp.Sun.COM>,  writes:
[lot's of assorted stuff deleted for brevity]
:
:I find it unsatisfying to leave it at that, and not try for some sort
:of resolution with science or reality.  What goes on in my own head is
:much less interesting to me than what is "real", and I'll define "real"
:here to mean experiences that can be shared by people, either physical
:or non-physical, and that they can agree about afterwards.  If people
:can't agree on common experiences, then science cannot be applied to
:it, and it falls under the catagory of religion.  The problem with
:religion is that it means whatever it means to each individual, so I'd
:rather stick to a scientific approach.  Normal reality meets this
:"consensus" test, and anecdotes say that OOBE might also.

Let me make a little more clear what I meant by the question perhaps
being moot. I think what may be happening is that, when someone has an
experience that doesn't fit within hir ability to conceptualize it,
the tendency is to interpret it in terms they understand. 

I think the anthropomorphizing of natural forces fits into this
category. I think similarly that various sightings of the Madonna in
various Catholic countries also may fit into this. 

The raw experience is processed into the closest equivalent imaginable
to the experiencer. So what one experiences as being out-of-body
another experiences as clairvoyance, etc. 

Perhaps the more imaginative and open you are, the more 'para-normal'
the experience you remember.

Since science depends on reliable data gathering, if your instruments
(people) are not amenable to calibration, it may be impossible to
apply conventional science to obe's and related phenomena.

		-Lorenzo
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
From: chad@CHEMISTRY.UTAH.EDU (Chad Smith)
Subject: Here's an experience!
Organization: University of Utah
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 04:16:26 GMT

	This is an oobe I had a while ago.  It kind of involves joint oobe,
which has come up recently.

	BTW, this happened on Halloween of '91, but not that it matters.
Anyway, I decided to have an astral travelling experience while my friend
watched over my body.  I am able to remain in contact with my physical body
while I'm "out", and so I wanted to narrate my experience as best I could
for my friend.  A lot of my oobe's have involved seeing a symbolically 
colored path.  This time, the path was green, and led through a serene
forest.  I wandered along the path for awhile, then felt a pulling sensation
that accelerated my motion until the trees were a blur.  I slowed down, then
stopped outside a small clearing.  There was a man in a (you guessed it)
green robe.  He was old, bent over, but exuded an inner strength that belied
his age.  He raised his head, made eye contact, and motioned me into the
clearing with his gnarled staff.  I moved into the clearing, drawn by his
gaze.  He set his hands on my shoulders, and pulled me close enough to
whisper, "There is something important I must tell you, but I will wait until
you come alone". I saw his eyes watching the side of the clearing I had
entered on, and when I started to turn to look, he motioned for me not to.
I came back to my body, woke up, and asked my friend what all he had heard.
Apparently I hadn't said anything after entering the clearing, but he then
said that he had decided to follow me astrally after I had entered the
forest.  He had been standing at the edge of the clearing, watching me and
the man in the green robes, but had darted off when the man saw him.

	I never went back to the green path, and probably never will, but
this is one experience I will never forget.

	I would accept comments gratefully, but please don't try to analyze
my experience.  I know what happened.

Chad

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Std. disclaimer:  my opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, but
I'm working on it.

"Everyone is born with the magic, but most have had it educated right out of
them."  or something like that

--Robert R. McCammon--
From: hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: reading / FAQ projects (was Re: Silver cord)
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:37:24 GMT
Followup-To: alt.out-of-body
Organization: Apple Computer

In article <1992Nov20.031247.28260@gnosys.svle.ma.us>,
gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) wrote:

(deletions)

 I fear that some of the analytical discussion
> may have so turned off these people that they have given up on the news-
> group as a forum that doesn't feel friendly enough for them to talk about
> their very personal experiences.  I hope at least some of them will return.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Gary

While I don't know much about how oobe's in general affect people, people
who have had NDE's frequently are quite hesitant to talk about the
experience. Making this forum as friendly and non-judgemental as possible
will (hopefully) encourage people to talk about their experiences more
openly.

- Lorin Hawley
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: morale@jec303.its.rpi.edu (Enrique Morales)
Subject: Re: Joint oobe experiment anyone ??
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:56:50 GMT

SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu (Senthil Ramas Kumar) writes:

>Hey folkx: after going thru what has been happening in alt.dreams I thought
>maybe we shud also setup some kind of an oobe experiment.  Kinda parellel to
>what John Winston does in a.a.v.  Maybe we could all get together
>out-of-body and go and visit a coupla places ? Niagara falls ? anyplace for
>that matter.

>I beleive that we need atleast one person who is atleast a little adept at
>going out-of-body at will.  And I am sure pple can come up with some more
>suggestions etc.

All the OOBEs I have had have been spontaneous so I'm not at all adept
at it, but every book I have read states that an entity in the astral
can actually help a person attempting to go astral by "pulling" him/her
out of his/her body. I'd like to participate and added this bit of 
info in case anyone that is adept at OOBEs can join the group and
"pull" those of us that have trouble. 

>Lets c, what we can do here.  and lets have some fun together.

I agree.  :)

>Kumar

Enrique
morale@rpi.edu