From: cassidy@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Champions
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:08:12 GMT
Reply-To: cassidy@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: cassidy@indian.cps.msu.edu

In article <COVIN.92Jul30144831@despair.cs.uchicago.edu> covin@tartarus.uchicago.edu (David Covin) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.203315.11937@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> apearlma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Pearlman) writes:
>
>   In article <COVIN.92Jul28124227@despair.cs.uchicago.edu> covin@tartarus.uchicago.edu (David Covin) writes:
>
>   >however, since as noted there are many INT-based skills which should
>   >be based on how smart you are, and buying up your INT flat-out makes
>   >you better at them, INT must represent how smart you are.
>
>   No, no, no.  Correlation does *not* imply causality.  If you don't have many
>   INT-based skills and a high INT, does this mean you are exceptionally smart?
>   Maybe, or perhaps you figure out simple to moderately complex things rapidly.
>   There are some physicists I know who wouldn't notice a bomb going off in the
>   next room...
>
>Well, in modelling correlation can imply representation.  I claim that
>the INT stat in Hero gives the effect of character intelligence, and
>that no other stat does, and that INT does not give solely the effect
>of "quick-thinking"; therefore INT represents intelligence.
>
>Your character with a 53 INT may be a natural genius with no training.
>Notice that for the same effort (character points) required for a 13 INT
>character to learn an INT-based skill at 12-, your character could
>learn the same skill at a roll of 20-.  Seems to me, that means your
>character is incredibly smart.

	Interesting but so is the fact that any 13 INT character could
have the same level 20- roll by taking longer on his skills and using
appropriate equipment.  Thus the 53 INT character can only do things
quicker with less help from equipment, like books and computers and
memory aids.  Yes, 53 is an ungodly amount on INT, but so is the
difference between a turn and a couple of years to do the same thing.  
Also if the 53 INT character has spent all his points on his
INT ( 76 points ), and the one INT-based skill that he has, in
comparison a 13 INT character could have myriad applicable Complementary
Skills.  He can be no less able than the genius in different
circumstances.  The 53-INT could have a Medical skill.  The 13-INT could
have Micro-biology, Chemistry, Bio-Chemistr y, Cardiology, Musclular
Anatomy, Pharmacology, Biology, Medical, Physiology, etc... ( and we
come no where near 76 points!)  The one that you would obviously like to
have on hand in case of a heart attack is the 13-INT doctor who has
enought skills at a high enough level to cover all possible
complications of the heart attack.  He does not have more innate
intellegence, he doesn't learn or remember things as fast as the
Super-Genius, but he can fix you up if that's what you need.

NOTE:  In a case where all the skills mentioned above came into play, we
would have 9 complementary skills.  If for the sake of ease, we assume
an even distribution of rolls, the following will occur:  
	One in nine is a 11% chance, which
puts on average one roll in the 6- less category.  When we assume that
he has these skills at base 12- ( from his INT ), he gets a bonus of +3
to his primary skill.  2 out of nine falls into the 22% range, so a roll
of 6-8, for a bonus of +2, the next roll brings us to 33%, which is a
9-, and another bonus of +2, the next is 44%, a 10- for +1, 55% is an
11- for a bonus of +1, the next 66% which is 12-, and is +1 as well, at
77% we fail the roll, there are 3 rolls failed-- damn!
My calculations give a 23- roll to succeed without taking anymore time
than the 53-INT.  And if I remember correctly, I think I'm wrong about
the above, I think that with a 12-, a roll of 12/11 is +1, a roll of
10/9 is +2, 8/7=+3, 6/5=+4, 4/3= +5 ( and possible a critical success,
if ruled so by the GM.)  This would be a roll of 26-  Our little doctor
who could, really could.

>
>Now, you could get the effect of an "absent-minded genius" by either
>buying down your 20- perception roll, or buying 5-pt levels with INT
>skills instead of INT.  If your GM won't let you buy the PER roll
>down, then you are effectively being penalized in point costs for a
>character conception that's a staple of many genres.
>
>In sum, Hero should probably have a separate mental stat for
>Perception, since many literary/comic/cinematic genres dictate that
>perceptiveness and intelligence do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.  I
>would argue that the ability to think quickly under pressure is the
>one that should *not* be represented by a game mechanic, since it
>really cannot be implemented in game rules-- the player has to be the
>inspired one.
>
>--
>David Covin                           covin@despair.uchicago.edu

	Funny . . . you don't think INT should determine perception
rolls, because it's not intelligence per se.  And the two do not
necessarily go hand-in-hand.  That is what Mr. Kim was saying.  Is that
the perception and cunning stat of INT is not the creativity/genius that
D&D-transfer-students think it should be.  Is it any surprise when Hero
did not mean for this to be an actual measure of intelligence, that it
measures perception skills?  Actually, real intelligence of the
characters is measured in two forms: skill levels, as before mentioned,
and the players portrayal of his character.  The absolute conceptual
level of the character is not meant to be governed by a stat.  There for
even the dumbest character is allowed to be as crafty as he pleases, in
his portrayal, but he must use the INT-roll that he himself bought, and
he must use the skills that he did or did not buy.  Hero does not have
to come up with a new stat for perception; because perception is its own
skill, receiving a base from the character's cunning and alertness.
More perception is more levels in perception, less is perception bought
down. ( I allow it as well as Phys. Lims to represent this effect.)  
The reason you think that Hero needs to separate the two ideas is
because you have joined them inappropriately, IMO.	

	John J Cassidy		Cassidy@indian.cps.msu.edu
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Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc