HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tong-Kang Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: old Her[4] and Christine
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:48:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <laahjmINN5q5@pollux.usc.edu>, mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn) writes...
> 
>Christine,
> 
>	My name is Mitch Yang and I am a Taiwan Independence advocator.
> 
>	Many friends of mine who are also TI advocators have exactly the
>	same background with you.  Both of their parents are from China and
>	themselves born in Taiwan.   Mr. Her[4] Duan-Fen is one of them.
>	When people ask old Her[4], "Ni[3] Shi[4] Nar[3] Li[3] Ren[2] ?
>	(Or 'Where are you from ?') ",  he always responds with. "Wuo[3]
>	Shi[4] Hua[1] Lien[2] Ren[2] (or 'I am from Hua-Lien.')"  As you
>	might have known, Hua-Lien is a county in Taiwan's east coast. It
>	was where old Her[4] was born and raised.  Old Her[4] not just 
>	considers himself Taiwanese. He also assumes that other people 
>	should identify him as Taiwanese.  Yes, you are Taiwanese as 
>	long as you consider yourself one and recognize Taiwan as your
>	homeland.
> 
>	As for the idea of "kicking out WSR after TI succeeds",  I haven't
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	met any TI advocator who ever have any idea remotely close to that.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	After all, if that is part of TI, why do you think old Her[4] and
>	many 1st generation Taiwanese like you keep joining the movement ?
>	It is just another lie from our great government's propaganda tools.
> 
>	Come. Come join us !   Be part of the solution, not the problem.

I am new to this newsgroup (two weeks only). Within two weeks, I have 
already read some hatred messages towards WSR in this newsgroup. Unless 
they are not TI advocators (maybe CCP's spies? :-) )

BTW, I have nothing against the idea of TI. Freedom of speech is my position.

Tom
From: chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: F16 to Taiwan
Keywords: F16
Date: 3 Sep 92 05:00:40 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

In article <1992Sep02.215310.8526@jho.com> john@jho.com (John Ho) writes:
>
>It is now official.  President Bush was in my backyard Ft. Worth this
>afternoon to announce he authorized to sell Taiwan 150 F-16 which
>worth more than $4 billion dollars and it saved 3000 jobs in
>Texas. 

This is simply the greatest news I have seen/heard for years.

Now ROC government must be very careful not to anger the French
government. We may still need their Mirage.

-Chunshi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Can we not all get along?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 00:04:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.222708.23570@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang) writes:

>First, some Taiwanese Hakka escaped from China to Taiwan more than one
>millinium ago and historials are arguing wether Hakka were originated
>from China proper or entered China from North Asia long time ago.  For
>Taiwanese Holo, genetic analysis points out that they are more likely to
>be a sinicized Yue people but the analysis is blurred by the
>intermarriage of Holo and Taiwanese Pinpu (Austronesian or
>Proto-Malayo-Polinesian).  There is no reason to choose China
>particularly as homeland while there were intermarriages and migrations.
>Also, there is no such thing as big China.  There is China Proper, the
>region that has been consistantly populated by Han population ruled
>effectively by the Chinese Dynasties.  These is the China ruled
>effectively by the PRC.

I don't think this is quite it.  First, the Chinese living in northern China
now are definitely not pure Chinese (or perhaps I should say Han) stock.
First, there were the mixture with the "Five Hu's" during the Wu4 Hu2 Lwan4
Hua2 period and the North/South Dynasties period (304-609 for the two periods).
Second, there was the mixture with the Turkish, Manchurian, and Mongolian
races starting from the collapse of Tang Dynasty down to the early parts of
Chin Dynasty.

The reason why, then, the Holo should be considered Chinese is that *they*
(like the Hakka and other southern Chinese people) are the "purer" Chinese.
From: chu@church.cs.unc.edu (Heng Chu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:02:09 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Aug27.225137.24538@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang) writes:
>Few
>states in the world would recognize Estonia if she claims Russia as part
>of her territory.

*** It's likely true. But, when Russia existed, it didn't matter what
    Estonia claimed, did it? It's the power who made decisions.
    
    Absurd claims exist in international society. Examples include 
    PRC's claim that Taiwan is part of their territory. That certainly 
    didn't prevent other countries to rush to have diplomatic relationship 
    with it.

Heng
From: cul8er@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (* JOHNNY CHIU * KB5SJN *)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: CQ CQ CQ
Date: 30 Aug 92 02:17:18 GMT
Reply-To: cul8er@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (* JOHNNY CHIU * KB5SJN *)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: cul8er@mickey.cc.utexas.edu

73,
KB5SJN



Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cyc@z.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang)
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:29:01 GMT

>>Also the fact is U.S. government has expressed many times for opposition of 
>>Taiwan Independence. And China is not Iraqi, Lybia, or Panama. Military 
>>confrontation with China can be very costly to the U.S. 
>>

But U.S. has also expressed countless times that Taiwan's problem should be
resolved peacefully. One comment to those stubborn Chinese, westerners
believe people are granted the right to live, to decide their own future,
to make decisions on their own business. Taiwanese are granted to decide
and choose whatever they want to do. It's none of China's business, period.

Not as costly as what American have lost in WWI, WWII, Korea war, Vietnan
war, or even the recent Gulf war. BTW, what is the cost of freedom and
democracy ?

>>Since tension in the East Asia region has been greatly reduced these several 
>>years, U.S. has no reason to recognize Taiwan Independence at the risk of 
>>her own interest.

Freedom and democracy is the central of American's interest.
If you think American will trade business opportunity with freedom and
democracy, give me a break.

Yi-Chieh
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 23:59:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.215438.21877@Princeton.EDU> muyu@tan.Princeton.EDU (Muyu Guo) writes:

>Is the United States a God? Why should it intervene and mess with 
>other people's matter?  If there is no US in the earth, can you
>still live?

This is irrelevant.  Whether the U. S. *should* intervene or not is irrelevant
to whether if it *will* intervene or not.  Please follow the article a little
closer if you wish to flame it.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ghe@nyx.cs.du.edu (George He)
Subject: Re: F16 to Taiwan
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: F16
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 13:30:46 GMT

In article <Bu10rL.D1o@news.cso.uiuc.edu> scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve C. Chen) writes:
>I am pretty sure it'll be the F-16 C/Ds.  Why would Taiwan buy 150 planes with
>worse avionics with their own IDF fighter??  What do other people think?
>
>Steve Chen
>scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

It is rumored that the IDF is a product of rush under the high pressure 
of premier Hao, Bo-Tsuen. After some testing, Taiwan Air Force only
wants to buy 50 IDF (you know, give Premier Hao some *faces*),
just for training pilots, not really serving in the Air Force,
which means IDF is not as reliable/good as the government propaganda said.

If the rumor is true, the reason for buying worse F-16 is obvious.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: chang@tkl.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Yau-Dong Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Let go the embassy; let Taiwan be Taiwan.
Date: 24 Aug 92 02:20:52 GMT
	<1992Aug23.171535.7223@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
	<1992Aug23.193945.21911@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Organization: Institute of industrial science, University of Tokyo
In-reply-to: shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU's message of 23 Aug 92 19:39:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.193945.21911@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SHAO CHUNG-SHANG) writes:

[deleted all]..

I just wonder what our "COUNTRY"'s name is and where our "COUNTRY" is.

Republic of China ? that will disappear in the international
society sooner or later. or Republic of Taiwan ? that does not exist
yet. or People's Republic of China ? or Formosa(spell?)? that has been a
beautiful island before.

================================================================
chang@tkl.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp	 |  Yau-dong Chang
2nd. grade of Doctoral Course    |  3 Dept. Takagi Lab.
Dept. of Electronic Engineering  |  Institute of Industrial Science
				 |  Univ. of Tokyo.
 7-22-1, Roppongi, Minato-Ku     |  Tel:+81 3-3402-6231 ex.2643
 TOKYO 106, JAPAN		 |  Fax:+81 3-3423-2834

				 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Korean Bashing (Re: All you d*ckhead friend-betraying Koreans!!!)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 17:10:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.122543.3661@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.163112.18553@terminator.cc.umich.edu>, ywh@asterix.merit.edu (Woody Huang) writes:
>
>> 	b. UNLIKE taiwan, south korean government is an ELECTED goverment.
>> 	   themselves in order to get re-elected.  As for what groups' 
>
>	** I challenge you with anything: ROC government is also an
>	   ELECTED one.

President Lee, unlike the president of South Korea, was elected not by a
popular mandate but rather by the "Veteran" legislators.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: New diplomatic relationship
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:08:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.155833.22305@csd.brispoly.ac.uk> c_tsai@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (C Tsai) writes:

>     Why I don't like this idea about "North Korea case"???????????
>In the world, everybody know that Taiwan is anti-Communist country, so
>some anti-Communist countries like have a diplomatic relationship with
>Taiwan....(Certainly only a few countries for money and want a diplomatic
>relationship )...
>
>     For example, South Africa is quite anti-Communist country, if we have
>a diplomatic relationship with North Korea...... I think it will let many
>anti-communist countries angry..... Maybe they will cut all of relationship
>with Taiwan.......  So I don't agree that Taiwan can have a diplomatic with
>N.Korea.....

Not necessarily.  Taiwan, even while the Sandinistas (communists) were in
power, had diplomatic relationship with Nicaragua.  I don't think it had much
effect on relationships with other countries.
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Independence of Taiwan: a Suggestion
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:23:18 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Sep3.025629.674@netnews.alf.dec.com>, klai@jman.dco.dec.com (Kwo-Long Lai) writes:
> 
> Having been US for such a long time, I've learned an old saying: 
> 
>                 Never say never! :-)

	** For certain thing such as "TI would never materialize"
	   I think you can say NEVER just within our life time.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SHAO CHUNG-SHANG)
Subject: Re: Korean Bashing (Re: All you d*ckhead friend-betraying Koreans!!!)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 06:13:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.163754.11978@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>
>>	   US "government" is not entirely "people-elected". There
>>	   are more "appointed" officers than elected officers.
>>
>>	   Who is running the government? I think most government
>>	   offices are run by those "non-elected" officers.
>
>And those officials were appointed by one who was elected (the President) and
>confirmed by a group that was elected (the Senate).
>
>And please stop arguing on semantics.  Substance is more important than
>semantics.

what do you mean 'substance'?
by the way, not most of them will be confirmed by the house.  only the heads
of the important departments.

cs shao.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: anw1@cec1.wustl.edu (Aaron Wong)
Subject: Re: Language
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 19:30:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.182500.23926@engage.pko.dec.com> li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tong-Kang Li) writes:
>...
>Taiwanese should not feel Holo inferior to Mandarin at all. I heard Holo is
>authentic Han/Chinese dialect (ancestor of Mandarin??). Holo and Mandrain
>is the same language but different dialect.

Holo and Mandarin (and all the other Chinese languages) are derived from some
ancient Chinese. No one speaks ancient Chinese now. Efforts have been made to 
re-construct the old language but we can never be exactly sure of how it used
to sound like. This is because the written language is not phonetic. No big
loss, since we retained the meaning of the literatures.

In other words, Mandarin, Holo, Cantonese, Hakka.... are all siblings of the
same deviation tree. Language development is too gradual for us to say exactly
which one is older and one is younger.

Holo and Mandarin are different languages because they are mutually 
unintelligible. Dialects should not be so.

>
>In the early 30s, Beijing dialect was chosen among many different ones as
>our common language (and still is in the Mainland China, Canton and FuJin
>people did not complain)..... 

Are you sure?

New York Times has an article about how people in Guangzhou (Canton City)
refuse to speak Mandarin and thus annoy the hell out of the northern 
bureaucrats. I read it last month and found it very funny...

NGOK 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ghe@nyx.cs.du.edu (George He)
Subject: Re: F16 to Taiwan
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: F16
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 13:15:32 GMT

In article <BtzKL5.JKE@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
>In article <1992Sep02.215310.8526@jho.com> john@jho.com (John Ho) writes:
>>
>>It is now official.  President Bush was in my backyard Ft. Worth this
>>afternoon to announce he authorized to sell Taiwan 150 F-16 which
>>worth more than $4 billion dollars and it saved 3000 jobs in
>>Texas. 
>
>This is simply the greatest news I have seen/heard for years.
>
>Now ROC government must be very careful not to anger the French
>government. We may still need their Mirage.
>
>-Chunshi

Why not buy both?


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: The Foreign Minister of PRC said ...
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:12:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.215438.21877@Princeton.EDU> muyu@tan.Princeton.EDU (Muyu Guo) writes:
>From article <1992Aug27.170622.8009@leland.Stanford.EDU>, by claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu):
>> In article <92240.095103U38250@uicvm.uic.edu> U38250@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>other people's matter?  If there is no US in the earth, can you
>still live?
Some spineless Chinese(TIers,etc) have very mythical view on U.S., aserting
that U.S. will save their skin, is not only indicating lack of basic knowledge
on international politics, also showing their willing to assist Foreigners to
kill their comptriots.
>
>-- 
>--
>Muyu Guo
From: chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Language
Date: 31 Aug 92 05:50:18 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

chou@cs.washington.edu (Pai Hsiang Chou) writes:
>he spoke with a very heavy H"ol"o accent, obviously trying to
>use all the negative stereotypes to their extreme.
>This is outrageous, humiliating to a large group of the Taiwanese
>citizens.

This is, indeed, a very unfortunate incident. But don't you agree that
it is equally humorous if the character depicted was a 38 female who 
spoke H"oL"o with heavy WSR accent. 

It is simply natural for a person to speak non-mothertone with accent.
It maybe funny but there is nothing humiliating about it.  

Please don't get too serious with comedy like Lian2Huan2Pao4. It
doesn't worth it.  Remember how Shang1Dong1 (mountain east) mandarin
was (is?) ridiculed on TV? As long as people find it laughable, 
TV stations would do anything to put it on the tube.

When I was in the services, a highlight in one of the
happy-together-night-parties (Tung2Ler4Wan3Huei4) was when a man with
heavy old Chiang3 accent appeared on the stage.  He was so
old-Chiang-like and so funny that everyone went crazy.  This happened
before the martial law was lifted. People were matured enough 
back then to appreciate such humorous accent-related drama.

Finally, forgive me if I sound like questioning your authority.  But
could you tell us how did you find out about the evolution history of
H"oL"o? I ask because intuition tells me such history would be very
difficult (if not impossible because of the absence of audio recorders)
to recreate. I'd like to know your methodology please?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: Jesse
Subject: a joke,just a joke
Originator: cyen@ponder.csci.unt.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept .of UNT
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 10:29:52 GMT

If you are a Korean, please replace Hyundai with Feeling 101.
One of my American friends told me this joke:

     One day a police arrested a driver and accused him of intending 
     to murder because of overspeeding to 160 mph. The murderous tool
     is a Hyundai Excel.
     In adjudgement,a Hyundai technician was called to test the car.
     At last the driver was announced innocent, because that technician
     said, "It's impossible for a Hyundai to run that fast."

Just a joke, don't take it serious.

Jesse
From: minter@mercury.ncat.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Graduate school wanted
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:35:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: North Carolina A&T State University


Hi, everybody  


   I am a senior of music major, and I will graduate in next May.
Now I am looking for a graduate school to go. 
If any one out there can provide me some information about schools 
in the states of Washington, Oregon, Indiana, Texas, and Georgia,
will be appreciated. 

Gan3 Gi1 Bu2 Gin4 
Thanx 

PS. E-mail to me if you could.

-- 
Minter

e-mail address:minter@garfield.ncat.edu
               minter@mercury.ncat.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: dskim@eng.umd.edu (Daeshik Kim)
Subject: Democracy(?) (WAS Re: Two Chinas and Two Koreas)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 17:01:07 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Maryland, College Park

Jung S. Lee wrote:
>  Personally, I never like whatever those dickheads in S. Korea gov't
>  do.

	But I hate that ass-hole more who called Koreans (was it
	race or nation?) dickheads not the gov't.
	And I hate that super jerks who laughed (or enjoyed)
	at the BS logic of "Koreans are dickheads".

B. Sean Kim wrote:
>     So what should happen in Korea?

	There shouldn't be any classism.
	No more students only events (hmm.. maybe by age shuould be O.K.).
	More paricipation of Korean citizen of any class.
	I want a leader who studied Politics/Law/... (+ Computer Science).
	I want a leader who take the job as a job.

>     As Plato said, I ONCE believed minor elites could lead their
                                                  ^^^^^
>     country to the better direction than ignorant majority (see
>     Singapore, gee.. I am not even sure whether it's the right
>     example).  However, most elites tend to be very greedy.
                          ^^^^        ^^^^
	Well, those 'could/most/tend' (may/might/can...) MAY(?)
	fool lots of people; tomorrow, it may/can be mostly cloudy.

>     In my opinion, S. Korea's political chaos started from the two
>     previous presidents; one, a Ph.D. from Princeton and the other,
>     a graduate from Imperial Japanese military academy.

	I think it started from the beginning of Chosun.
	Personally, I think it sould not have existed (Chosun).

>     only by the students' blood.......but by the students

	Nope, I would say by citizen.
	I don't want to classify the students as a special group
	of interest.

>     Without socialistic modifications by some dictatorial forces,
>     and capitalistic incentives together, economic development in S.Korea
>     would be well behind campared to present state.

	I don't know about that; and who knows that we would have been
	better off.

>     Daeshik, stop nintendo for a while, and spit yours.

	I never had nintendo (but Genesis, Super nintendo, TG16).

	And here I spit:
	The word 'Student' as those who are in school
	is fine; but I can't take that as certain class.
	Matter of fact those who got kicked out of school
	due to demonstration or what so ever are not students any more.
	(which applies to most demo. leaders).
-- 
	Daeshik Kim	H: (703)273-1517 O: (703) 689-5878
	/PN=Daeshik.Kim/O=SprintIntl/ADMD=Telemail/C=US/@Sprint.com
	dskim@eng.umd.edu	I don't speak for Sprint.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:12528 soc.culture.korean:4035