HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sblair@upurbmw.dell.com
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
Reply-To: sblair@dell.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Dell Computer Corp. Network Services
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 02:57:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.232358.8419@tic.com>, petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu (Chris Petrilli) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep21.144853.22787@tic.com> max@underg.uucp (Max Cray)  
|> writes: 
|> > I think corporate involvment would be a good way to reach the goal.
|> > Dell might also be interested in helping. I understand that they
|> > were going to set up CACTUS, but that CACTUS was not interested in
|> > providing Internet accounts for various reasons.

Nothing is further from the whole story. Ask Jim Knutson, or Tom Painter
before speaking of a decision CACTUS was considering. I would, and did,
and still didn't understand all issues involved in their decision.

|> 
|> Well, Dell is on Internet at 56K and from what I understand they use most of  
|> it, so UT is the only MAJOR internet link here in Austin (multiple T1 lines  
|> as I recall).  I think the more we avoid corporate involvement the better. I  
|> don't mind donation of machines, so long as there are NO strings attached. I  
|> don't want IBM or someone else deciding they need a "fair use" policy and  
|> trying to turn this into a censored advertisement medium.  Basically we would  
|> need a contract taht states that the equipment is donated and there are no  
|> further ties to the company beyound support.

wellllll,

While in no way speaking for DELL(as a whole), I am surprised to see my link
with SESQUInet slowed down to 56KB. It's a T-1. Check the maps
from nisc.sesqui.net. But that's not the point. DELL has been quite
sympathetic to the local(read AUSTIN) computer industry for some time
now, long before I even joined DELL, and setup our Internet connection.

Many of the founders here were(and still are) in CACTUS long before
most folks discussing this topic were in school. While I'm not proposing
DELL be a sponsor, it's possible we could be. I and some others would
have to enlist enough support to make this a reality. I think that would
take probably as much time as getting the Comp. Ctr. to do same.

Take UT, and DELL out of it. The issue of the perceived(and wanted
access) still exists. I think it would be far mroe constructive, and
proably quicker to approach SESQUInet for access, should all agree.

The NSS's to the internet run through there, even if you attach to UT/DELL/
whoever. Only other option would be to get a Alternet connection, or
wait for the MCI-Internet to come up in Austin(not very far off).

How about this:

Several of us are considering incorporating a commercial Internet host/
gateway for Austin. What would the reception to an EFF "available"
host be? Would that fit everyone's bill-of-good better?

|> 
|> >    However I think that donations from individuals could also be
|> > significant. The most important thing I think is for some way to
|> > assure people that the project will really happen.
|> 

Right, but remember that thoise indviduals get paid by companies... ;>




Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: shiva@pro-smof.cts.com (System Smof)
Subject: Re: Preliminary agenda for October meeting
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: The SMOF-BBS: Science Fiction Online Since 1985 [512-467-7317]
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 05:59:58 GMT

A minor correction: ArmadilloCon 14 is October 9-11 (a Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday).
 ____________________________________________________________________
/                                |                            |      \
|SMOF-BBS 512-467-7317 PCP=TXAUS |"The World's First Online   | __|__ |
|    Proline:  shiva@pro-smof    | Science Fiction Convention"| \_|_/ |
|    Internet: wixer!pro-lep!pro-smof!shiva@cs.utexas.edu     |   |   |
\________________________________|____________________________|______/
Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: riddle@tic.com (Prentiss Riddle)
Subject: EFF-Austin mailing lists and newsgroup (periodic posting)
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 22:07:48 GMT

EFF-Austin (The Electronic Frontier Foundation -- Austin Chapter)
has several online mailing lists and a USENET newsgroup.

The main list and newsgroup are linked together:

	The list:	eff-austin@tic.com
	The newsgroup:	austin.eff

Both are moderated.  Anything you post to either of them actually is
sent automatically to the moderator, eff-austin-moderator@tic.com,
who is Prentiss Riddle.  The moderator's job is to screen out redundant
messages, ad hominem attacks, opinions passing as fact, and other
"noise".  Most messages are approved but occasionally one is rejected.
Approved messages go to both the mailing list and the newsgroup.

This list and newsgroup form a public forum.  Anyone can join,
and items from it are already being redistributed in other lists.
Anything posted on eff-austin@tic.com is public, and can be reposted elsewhere.

To be added to or deleted from eff-austin@tic.com, please send mail to:
	eff-austin-request@tic.com

To subscribe to the newsgroup, use your usual USENET news reader.

For comments about moderation of the eff-austin list or the austin.eff
newsgroup, please send mail to the moderator as riddle@tic.com.


There is another list for important information that needs to reach
the Board of Directors of EFF-Austin:

	eff-austin-directors@tic.com	Board of directors and a few others.

Most EFF-Austin directors read the main list or newsgroup.
If you send mail to eff-austin@tic.com or post to austin.eff,
there is usually no need to also send mail to eff-austin-directors.

EFF-Austin is a Texas nonprofit corporation based in Austin that
concentrates on issues local to Austin and Texas.
General questions about EFF-Austin are best sent to eff-austin@tic.com.

EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, is a 501(c)3 nonprofit
based in Cambridge, MA that concentrates on national issues.
EFF has its own newsgroups:
	comp.org.eff.talk
	comp.org.eff.news
For further information about EFF national, send mail to eff@eff.org.


-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@tic.com
-- Moderator of austin.eff / Another happy guest at Three Initial Corp.
Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: jim@tadusa.uucp (Jim Thompson)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:47:19 GMT

OK, it seems clear at this point that we have orthogonal goals.  I
could respond to your response, and I'm sure you would respond to
mine.  (Part of my really does want to continue this debate, though I'm
sure it would go much faster face-to-face over caffine-laden drink.

There is one way to show who is right (or even that we both are/were),
build the proposed system, see if one or both succeede.  10 years from
now, see which exists.

I'll now retire from the discussion.

Jim


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: bladex@wixer.cactus.org (David Smith)
Subject: Re: Austin American-Statesman
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1992 19:11:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep17.160108.21378@tic.com> jim@tadusa.uucp writes:
>"Hackers dialing up wave of voice-mail fraud."
>
>Have you read this yet?
>
>According to the article's sources, some of these calls are placed
>so that drug dealers can make 'untraceable' phone calls, some are
>placed on behalf of poor immigrants, and others are used to extort
>money out of the system's owners.
>
>This is page one, headline-making news?   Not!

Yes it is page one, headline-making news.  I bought a copy of the Statesman,
simply to read that article, so it worked, in that headlines are designed to
grab your attention and make ya want to buy the paper.

As far as the article goes, I didn't see anything objectionable in the
content.  Voice mail hacking happens, for all the reasons mentioned.  [Though
I can't remember if bored-kids-messing-around was cited as well]

Specifically, no sweeping generalizations about "hackers" were made, though
the Statesman still used the definition of hacker-as-computer-criminal.

How would you have covered the story differently?

One, this can be viewed as an impediment of the work of EFF-National and CPSR
in blocking the passage of the FBI Digital Telephony Bill.

Two, the bill is never mentioned in the article.

Three, do you have any information or evidence about this being a plant?

>
>To me, this looks more like a plant to soften-up the constituency so
>the FBI bill has a better chance of passing both the House and Senate.
>
>Jim

-- 
I was using Cyberspace as a metaphor for the experience of living in the
media environment which we all do anyways, and what [techies &
cyberpunks] got out of it was that they came back to me and said "Hi!,
you're giving us the blueprint for a new world."  <laughs> -- William Gibson



Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: george@wixer.cactus.org (George Wenzel)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1992 02:28:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep21.144853.22787@tic.com> max@underg.uucp (Max Cray) writes:
>
>Another option would be to not use the Freenet software. Just give
>everybody shell acces, and perhaps hack together a beginners shell
>or some other custom software. The important thing is the TCP/IP
>access.
>
It is possible that there may exist someone who would be willing to
provide the facility, most of the hardware, and the administration of the
system (me).  That is IF there is additional support for what hardware I
don't have available, and financial support needed to wire us into
Internet.  

I have some of the needed software running now, and I have the experience
in maintaining a reliable site.  

If we had the funds to buy a cisco router, and pay for the wires, I think
it would be a done deal.

George
-- 
George Wenzel                    |  Real/Time Communications
george@wixer.cactus.org          |  "faster, smarter and costs less..."
cactus.org!wixer!george          |  "Hardware solutions for the real world."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: shiva@pro-smof.cts.com (System Smof)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: The SMOF-BBS: Science Fiction Online Since 1985 [512-467-7317]
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:08:29 GMT

The substantial difference is the fact that corporate sponsorship for
hardware and other vital things seems a tad more likely now.

By the way, I happened to have an old issue of LINK-UP which was a debut
article about the Cleveland Free-Net; it said that they would license their
software to other city's free-nets for a dollar a year. I wonder if that
offer is still in force?
 ____________________________________________________________________
/                                |                            |      \
|SMOF-BBS 512-467-7317 PCP=TXAUS |"The World's First Online   | __|__ |
|    Proline:  shiva@pro-smof    | Science Fiction Convention"| \_|_/ |
|    Internet: wixer!pro-lep!pro-smof!shiva@cs.utexas.edu     |   |   |
\________________________________|____________________________|______/
Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu (Chris Petrilli)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 16:36:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep21.143047.22526@tic.com> max@underg.uucp (Max Cray)  
writes:
> This sounds great. I have seen ALOT of local interest in the Internet as
> long as it is not too expensive (ie, affordable for the average person),
> and free would be even better. I, and many others I am sure, would be
> interested in contributing, time, energy, and money to this project,
> but to date there has not been anyone to coordinate it. I hope that
> will change now, and you will post how to contribute to this project.
> Perhaps a corporate sponser(s) could be found.

Well, there is one thing wo have to do when the machine is on Internet, and  
that is conthe access to it.  Using Internet for services is fine, don't  
think it's in the best intereste of UT or the FreeNet to givd Internet ac is  
available the more likely it is to be abused.  I think the way that Cleveland  
and Youngstown handle it (through menus) is going to be the best way to go.

I think getting UT to give the space and Internet link is the best and only  
REAL way to go, it's the only way you're going to make sure the machine stays  
on Internet and doesn't get resources pulled. You do have to think  
realistically as well as politically when dealing with large organizations.

> Also I beleive this should be important to EFF-A. If the goal of the
> EFF is to civilize cybersapce, then making cyberspace accessible is
> certainly a step in the right direction.

I think this is a good point, which means maybe we can get some big names  
(founders of EFF) to come and speak in support. Getting Gibson to help  
wouldn't hurt either.

Chris
--
| Chris Petrilli
| petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu, petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu
| All opinions are my own, if they even belong to anyone.


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: bazooka@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Bob Anderson)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:25:00 GMT

There sure is alot of techie-talk going on in regards to this topic and
I hope I am not being too dumb by joining in.  I enjoy having a shell
account and enjoy having the following available to me:  telnet, ftp and
irc.  Other services like mail and reading newsgroups can be obtained
alot of other places.

Someone brought up the subject of a front end and I thought we might
want to rememeber that EFF is at this moment engaged in developing
just such a thing.  The following is from a FAQ from Cambridge:

* To advance ease of use and maximum connectivity, we have launched the
  Intersuite Project. Working with Software Tool and Die, operators of The
  World, a public access Unix system in Brookline, Massachusetts, we will
  develop an easy series of applications for connecting to the Internet
  from personal computers. Once completed in 1993, these applications will
  be released into the public domain.

That my one and a half cents worth, now back to the jargon laden talk  :-)
-- 
   Robert Anderson    \   
bazooka@well.sf.ca.us  \                 Be your own jesus    
+1 512-451-4610 & 7117  \   


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: george@wixer.cactus.org (George Wenzel)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:11:11 GMT

A signifigant effort is underway to get the Austin Freenet project
organized and operational.  

If you have something to contribute to the effort, please let me know.  We
are looking for people that can help get this going.  

There is currently a mailing list of the people involved, and I am looking
for more people to put on it.

George
-- 
George Wenzel                    |  Real/Time Communications
george@wixer.cactus.org          |  "faster, smarter and costs less..."
cactus.org!wixer!george          |  "Hardware solutions for the real world."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu (Chris Petrilli)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:27:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.233022.8687@tic.com> hagbard@pro-smof.cts.com (Jon  
Wiley) writes:
> I think that the Free-Net would be a great asset to the educational
> community. It is one of the goals of my high schools computer club to  
hook
> my high school LAN to the Internet. Having a node on the Free-Net (if  
that
> would be possible) would be an appealing notion.

Gads... remind me to use something besides NewsGrazer to respond, it quotes  
horribly.

Anyway, I think people have the wrong idea as to what the Free-Net is.  The  
Free-Net is a single machine, that happens to be on Internet (primarily for  
it's NNTP/SMTP links and also for remote logins). It is not a "network"  
per-say, and I have a problem with the name because of that.  It is simply  
a piece of software (although a rather large and complete piece) that  
provides a Compu$erve like interface to a Unix box.  

As for connecting a HighSchool to Internet, it has been done, however,  
there are a lot of responsibilities that whoever does the work is going to  
have to take on.  Being on Internet is not a "simple" thing, and there is  
more to it than jsut connecting your network to the nearest midlevel  
network.  First there are (or soon will be) minimum host requirements, and  
most PC boxes don't meet them, as they haven't the multitasking capability  
to handle the multiple daemons (in Unix parlance) that are needed.

Secondly, there MUST be a technically competent administrator to support  
the machines, as there are routing and communications problems that must be  
dealt with.  It has been my experience that most HS don't have the  
knowledge to manage what computer resources they have, much less handle the  
load of a FULL Internet link.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm saying it needs to be considered  
carefully.  Internet is in it's pure form a research network, and when it  
comes down to it, NSF WILL protect the network from abuse.  I would hate to  
see the quality of the network degraded by dumping a thousand ill-prepared  
students on it.  I know that many colleges are no better, but the odds are  
a little better.  In the end you have to weight the costs, including those  
that aren't "material" againt the benefits (which are almost never  
material).  A link costs a good bit more than the phone line and a router.

Chris
--
| Chris Petrilli
| petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu, petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu
| All opinions are my own, if they even belong to anyone.


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: cheselka@cactus.org (Michael R. M. Cheselka)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:08:27 GMT

[Note from the moderator: I'm letting this one go through, but please
remember that I've been asked to screen out flames and ad hominem
attacks.  If this discussion gets any hotter I'll have to break out the
fire hose.  Thanks. -- Prentiss Riddle, riddle@tic.com]

In article <1992Sep28.232615.8501@tic.com> george@wixer.cactus.org (George Wenzel) writes:
>It is possible that there may exist someone who would be willing to
>provide the facility, most of the hardware, and the administration of the
>system (me).  That is IF there is additional support for what hardware I
>don't have available, and financial support needed to wire us into
>Internet.  
>
>I have some of the needed software running now, and I have the experience
>in maintaining a reliable site.  
>
>If we had the funds to buy a cisco router, and pay for the wires, I think
>it would be a done deal.
>

I am not pleased with your taking up the FREEnet cause to put your home
machine on the Internet, even if it might lead to free net access for
others and myself.  I am also furious about your efforts to spirit the public
FREEnet discussions into your closed mailing list.  Are you negotiating for
whats best for George Wenzel or for the Austin community?  How can I know?
I would prefer the FREEnet site to be:

1) Dell
2) THEnet

...and not out of someones house, especially if that someone seeks to
control(ie: deny access) to the flow of information.

P.S. Lots of people would like to have a major Internet site in their home,
esp. if it was funded from donations of money and equipment.
Please NOTE:  I am not refering to myself.

Is anyone other than myself skeptical about this?
-- 
cheselka@cactus.org               N5UVV              Michael R. M. Cheselka
os9@gnu.ai.mit.edu        Hangs out on 145.21mhz       400 W. 34th st. #103
membership@cactus.org                                 Austin, TX 78705-1331
{...}!cs.utexas!cactus.org!cheselka (512)452-9412v ( 24hours answer. mach.)


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: howard@rocksld.com
Subject: more resources...
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: none
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:15:30 GMT

In regards to the recent discussions about improving Austin
net-style connections -- here are a couple of possible resources
for technology or other needs.

-- Project Bluebonnet
	This is a State of Texas project with a decent amount of
hi-tech cooperation by large Texas-based technology companies that
is creating and planning for high bandwidth connections throughout
the state to support remote teaching and remote medical care. I
think it is only in the prototype stage, but they may have some
spare bandwidth or perhaps they have some long range plans that
a "FreeNet" group should be aware of.

-- The Austin Software Council
	This is a group that is trying to suggest ways to support
the growth of the "infrastructure" necessary to give Austin a shot
at becoming one of the world's premiere software development centers.
Improving networking and communications amongst software companies
and software specialists has been identified as an important
requirement for success.
	It's not entirely clear that a "FreeNet" approach can be sold
to them unless some software companies come forward and explain why
it makes sense. From an entrepreneurial standpoint, open connections
beat a closed BBS hands-down. And strong support for entreprenuerial
activities is the key to success for almost any modern industry.
It might be as simple as that.

	I have a business partner in the Austin Software Council
and a phone number for more info about Bluebonnet. Hope this helps.

Rock Howard
Rock Solid Software
howard@rocksld.com


Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: bladex@wixer.cactus.org (David Smith)
Subject: Re: Austin Free-Net?
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1992 03:04:52 GMT

Haven't the members of CTSA been working on an I-Net for close to a decade
now?  Is this "Free-Net" the same concept or are there substantial
differences?


-- 
I was using Cyberspace as a metaphor for the experience of living in the
media environment which we all do anyways, and what [techies &
cyberpunks] got out of it was that they came back to me and said "Hi!,
you're giving us the blueprint for a new world."  <laughs> -- William Gibson



Newsgroups: austin.eff
From: shiva@pro-smof.cts.com (System Smof)
Subject: ArmadilloCon
Originator: riddle@aahsa.tic.com
X-Submissions: eff-austin@tic.com
Organization: The SMOF-BBS: Science Fiction Online Since 1985 [512-467-7317]
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:04:23 GMT


A table has been secured for use by EFF-Austin for this Oct 9-11 SF
convention. All that is needed now is a computer and some volunteers to sit
at the table (and some literature to distribute). I guess the rest is up to
the Volunteer Coordinator, right?
 ____________________________________________________________________
/                                |                            |      \
|SMOF-BBS 512-467-7317 PCP=TXAUS |"The World's First Online   | __|__ |
|    Proline:  shiva@pro-smof    | Science Fiction Convention"| \_|_/ |
|    Internet: wixer!pro-lep!pro-smof!shiva@cs.utexas.edu     |   |   |
\________________________________|____________________________|______/
Newsgroups: austin.eff