HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco M14/Mini14/SKS
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:02 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Dec29.125236.2423@engage.pko.dec.com> towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith) writes:

# The M16/AR15 is generally a one holer at 50 feet.. Even my GI issue skinny 
#barrel M16 was easily capable of shooting rings around the best Ruger 
#accuracy-wise. At 25 yards using the sighting in target with a 1" aiming 
#paster all shots can be kept well within the paster. Try that with a Mini14..
#:-)

I'm not sure what the smiley means here--perhaps it means that you're
exagerrating a bit? I can't imagine having any trouble keeping shots in a
1" circle at 25 yards using my Mini 14. (It's a Ranch Rifle, and I'm
talking about shooting from a nice steady sandbag rest, and using a scope.)
Maybe you've only shot really bad ones?

As I've said elsewhere, the Mini 14 does not come close to the accuracy I'd
expect from a _real_ rifle, but it ain't _that_ bad! Could it be that an
image of Bill Ruger comes into your mind every time you squeeze the
trigger? That would throw your aim off... 8^)

# The least accurate M16/AR15 is still more accurate than the most accurate 
#Mini14.. :-)

Well, I'll go so far as to agree that the AR15 is significantly more
accurate than the Mini-14--but it ain't a bench rest rifle either. If I
ever get a decent sight for my Swedish Mauser... 8^)


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: icsif216@trex.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LAWS Rocket sub-cal kits
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:17:19 GMT
Organization: Montana State University

In article <Bznuno.7Cn@apollo.hp.com>, rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly) writes:
#I have been quoted a price of $300 for a LAW Rocket 
#sub-caliber kit. It consists of the launcher and one 
#37mm rocket to fire out of it. I saw them last year
#at gun shows for $50 for the launcher and $40 for 
#the sub-caliber rockets. Does anyone have any
#experience with these things? Do they work?
#Is it worth it? Thanks for any info.
#
#-Steve
#
If you are refering to the M190 subcaliber launcher and M73 rockets they       
work although occasional misfires occur. Caution should be used when           
firing since the backblast can cause severe injury. These make a nice loud bang 
and leave a puff of smoke when they hit their target. Is it worth it? That
depends on how much you like spending $40 every time you squese the triger.

GREG
From: fox@shab08.larc.nasa.gov (Mike Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Information requested for WW II shotgun
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:57:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA



  I need information on a shotgun that my father brought back from
 Germany after World War II.  He is interested in selling the gun,
 but does not know its value.  Any help that you provide will be 
 greatly appreciated.  I have listed some of the features and 
 markings found on the gun below:


   o German 16-gauge side-by-side double barrell shotgun

   o Two triggers

   o Left barrell is modified choke ? , right is definitely full choke

   o 43 inches overall length, 26.75-inch barrell length

   o Some designs near breech

   o Other markings:

     - on barrell underneath forestock:

      left barrell:                             5757
      (design of crossed swords with + signs)   STETIENNE 17.0

      right barrell:                            B * P
       G (same design as other barrell)         STETIENNE 17.0

    - under breech:

      (different design)   VERNEY-CARRON
            PT                     AJIER DIAMANI

    - side:

        STETIENNE (more ornate)

    -  under safety switch:

        SUR



  The gun is in pretty good shape.  Thanks for any information that you
  can provide.


  Mike Fox
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 8 x 57 Mauser's
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:26:02 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Dec29.165541.4440@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson) writes:

|> I also acquired for xmas the Hornady twin die set,
|> these are the first Hornady tools I have yet used, all
|> my other stuff is RCBS and I like the way the Hornady die
|> locking ring locks by tightening the collar instead of
|> dinging up the threads the way the RCBS dies do.

handy hint:

drop in a #9 lead shot before tightening down the ring locking screw - works like
a charm, never a buggered die thread (or a slip) in 30+ years of using RCBS dies.

In fact, I think the lead might just hold _better_ than the steel-on-steel.

Oh, yes, don't use those new-fangled steel shot, they'll bugger up the threads,
too. :-)

|> Is, in
|> the nets opinion, Hornady "Good Stuff" or not :-) in com-
|> parison with RCBS.

They are equivalent, IMHO.  Haven't used any of the new TiN dies from Hornady,
however.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: FYI: "Guns that won the West" on A&E
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:00:01 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1992Dec21.002518.2272@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:
<   #In article <1992Dec9.162555.7831@ke4zv.uucp> emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
<   ##
<   ##Well their idea of accuracy differed from that of the paper puncher.
,   ##They fired from a prone rest atop a hill with thousands of buffalo
<   ##too dumb to run milling about below them. A buff is a large target,
<   ##and they weren't concerned about humane kills. All they wanted were
<   ##the hides and they could get that just as easily from a buffalo that
<   ##took two weeks to die as one that dropped dead on the spot. It often
<   ##took weeks to skin a day's slaughter.

<   #From my recollection of books about the period (i.e. I read a lot of
<   westerns whan I was younger:-) what the buffalo hunters most wanted
<   to avoid was spooking the herd.  If they could drop an animal cleanly
<   the rest of the herd would carry on grazing, apparently not associating
<   the noise of the shot with any danger.  Although the herds were large,
<   the conclusion that the hunters just fired into the mass is wrong.
<   Accuracy was of paramount importance.

	Exactly. The buffalo rifles were heavy caliber (.40 or
	greater) rifles with heavy barrels; sort of 19th century
	varmint rifles.

	Those who saw "Quigley Down Under" (which, oddly, seems
	to exclude anyone from Australia) will recall the shooting
	done with a falling-block rifle. A recent article in 
	"Handloader" discussed firing such rifles at 1,000
	yard (approx. 913 meters) targets. The accuracy of
	these low-pressure rifles at such ranges is astonishing;
	momentum of the very heavy bullets appears to be a key
	factor.

	Suffice to say, accurate shooting with large (50 caliber
	and greater) black powder cartridge rifles at long ranges
	is possible and was done.
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357mag vs .44mag
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:05:13 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC

#From article <9212181706.AA19060@gtephx.com>, by forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona):
# In article <199212152104.AA19190@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>, kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
# # In article <1992Dec15.070103.15131@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
# # #...
# # #	hence the question does .44 offer some advantage over
# # #	.357 when used for defense purposes? And under what
# # #	set of conceivable circumstances?
# # 
# # Maybe shoothing someone in his/her car? Perhaps shooting someone behind
# # a thick wall? Or you can play "Dirty Harry"? :)
# # 
# 
# Definitely when defending yourself against a charging bear!
# 
# Definitely NOT in your hallway at 2am (the .357 will exceed the 
# threshold of pain for your ears, inside a building, louder is 
# not better).

IMHO, the .357 mag is MUCH worse on a person's ears than the .44 mag.
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (James Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: T.C. carbine
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:45:55 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC

#From article <01GSL3M3F8DE002J2A@AC.DAL.CA>, by mball@ac.dal.ca:
# I would like to gather the net wisdom on the subject of 
# Thompson-Contender carbines.  I understand that the pistols
# are nicely accurate and that the carbine is basically the 
# pistol with a stock.

True, the carbine IS the pistol with a stock (Bbl must be > 16").
Both are accurate given that it is a break action.

Bullberry Barrel Works makes a forend hanger system that will make both
more accurate.  They guarantee one inch or better at 100 yds. (not great
accuracy by bolt action standards, but not bad, and the price is fair).

#                       Despite the fact that I have 
# heard/read many good things about the pistol the lack
# of carbine (and TCR87 rifle for that matter) info makes
# me wonder.  I am thinking hard about getting one as a 
# learning gun for my daughters (.22 youth stock) and as a single shot 
# (30-30 rynite adult stock) deer rifle for myself.  Any info
# would be appreciated.

The .22 carbine is used by many hunter education groups.  I think that
you would be happy with both.  (If it turns out that you don't like them,
I am always looking for another.  8^)
Xref: sparky rec.guns:18773 talk.politics.guns:25775
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: NRA Instructor Program
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:49 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

This was posted to the Internet firearms-politics mailing list by:
	nracop@cup.portal.com (Leroy Pyle):

Copied with permission from NRAction, Volume 6, Issue 11:

               ATTENTION:  Women Pistol Shooters

     The NRA is looking for experienced women pistol shooters to
become Personal Protection Instructors and share their knowledge
with other women.  To become an instructor, you must attend an
instructor training course taught by an NRA Training Counselor.
To qualify for instructor training, you must meet the following 
two criteria:

     1.  You must be experienced in the shooting and
         handling of a handgun.

     2.  You must be willing to host a personal pro-
         tection course in your area one week after 
         the completion of your training and host six
         similar courses during the year.

     The first NRA instructor training seminar will be held in the
Los Angeles, California, area January 22-24.  Similar sessions will
be held across the nation over the next few months.
 
     The personal protection course consists of a basic pistol
shooting course with information on firearms and the law, as well
as how to respond to criminal attack.

     If you are a woman willing to pass on your experience and
knowledge to other women, contact organizer Leroy Pyle, 666 N. 2nd
Street, San Jose, CA, 95112, 408-947-7678.

               *   *   *   *   *   *

I will appreciate any help in recruiting women instructors for the
following locations:

     San Francisco Bay Area   mid-February (date not confirmed)
     Kansas City, MO          February 26-28, 1993
     Phoenix, AZ              March 12-14, 1993
     Long Island, NY          March 26-28, 1993
     Nashville, TN            April 16-18, 1993

If you, or someone you know would like to attend, or have any 
questions, please call and forward a short resume on shooting 
and teaching experience to the phone and address listed above.

     Thanx,
     Leroy 

-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: NRA-ILA bbs
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:17:26 GMT
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting

ATT just reduced the night/weekend rate for ReachOut America to a flat
$6.00/hour after the first hour which costs ~$10.
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
 
                        Happy Holidays to ALL!!!
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Pet loads for 223 Rem.
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:52:07 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

I picked up a good load for 1/7 barrel twist Sporters a year or so ago.
It works well for me!
I don't remember who originally reccomended the Sierra 63 gr soft point
bullets, but I have found them to work best with 1 in 7" twist barrels.
Even better than the Sierra 69 gr HPBT Match Kings.
I use between 26 and 28.x grains of Win 748, along with the 63 gr Sierra
bullets.
- Standard Reloading disclaimer -
From: emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Lead in brass confirmed, news at 11
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:18:00 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Dec18.001637.13022@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#In article <_6=rmy=@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
##ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#
###I feel vindicated now about my earlier discovery that the lead test
###kit found lead in new clean brass ...
#
##No, you're not off the hook yet.  
#
#I didn't know I was on a hook ...  Though there were some noises
#about the kit being suspect since it detected lead where one should
#only find brass... and this does show that brass isn't as lilly pure
#as was speculated.

Oh John has a meathook with your name on it. Don't feel picked on
though, he has a meathook with *all* our names on it. :-)

As to cartridge brass, it's not supposed to have *any* lead in it.
Any that's there is an impurity, not a part of the alloy.

Gary
From: chuckh@apex.com (Chuck Huffington)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:31:59 GMT
Organization: Apex Computer Company

In article <1992Dec21.234414.15865@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#~sigh~ I _really_ should know better by now.  My thanks to all who
#explained and/or chastised (and rightly so).
#
#Nothing in the SIG manual says I shouldn't dry fire, but nothing says it's
#ok, either.  Would chambering a snap-cap and dropping the hammer on that
#satisfy the requirement?  I prefer to play safe with anything that
#expensive.

No it won't.  You are going to hear STOP a lot when you go to load
on the next stage and a round (even a dummy) jumps out.
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Saved by the gun
Date: 3 Jan 93 22:59:52 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.

In article <rktr+sm@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
# jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
# 
# ## backs on the owner, he pulled what looked like a 9 mm automatic and 
# #  ^^^^^
# ## killed all 4.  He appeared to know what he was doing, discharging 6
# ## shots in a little over 3 seconds.  
# 
# #I have a problem with this, at least as presented here.  If they were  
leaving, 
# #I do not personally feel deadly force was needed at the point they turned 
# #thier  backs.  Unless the fact that they were mexican made them fair game.
# 
# That fact that they were robbers made them fair game, of course.  They were
# not turning to leave, not that it matters.  The store owner saved
# society the expense of trying and incarcerating the punks and probably
# put an early end to a crime spree.  Good shootin' in my book.
# 

As I mentioned, further evidence showed this to not be the vigilante style  
scenario you present it as, and continue to defend it as.  Your apaprent  
attitude towards law and order worry me.  Yes, the system needs work, but if we  
all ignore it, we don't have a society to save.  Robbers are NOT necessarily  
fair game.

# ## He fell asleep after raping the woman.  She got loose from her chains,
# ## got his gun and killed him.  Police say there will be no charges filed.
# ## 
# 
# #I guess stress and shock were in play, here, but again, on the surface, she  
# #should not have shot and killed him if she apparently had the chance to  
leave.   
# 
# Of course she should have killed him.  If it takes claiming stress and 
# shock to slip past the system (not necessary here but in some places,
# apparently), so be it.  The fact remains that she killed a rapist in the
# act and again saved us the expence of jailing him and then letting 
# him out to do it again.  
# 
Ditto to my above comments.  If you don't like the system, change it.  Yes,  
Rapists, robbers, etc. get too short a term, if they get any at all.  Fix it  
with the ballot box, not a gun.  Sure, if you are in  immediate danger, blow  
the punk away, but if you do it with anger and hatred instead of adrenaline,  
you are probably wrong.

Jim De Arras WA4ONG

--
Jim De Arras            | The opinions expressed herein are
Hand Held Products, Inc.| not necessarily those of Hand 
804.784.3090 voice      | Held Products, Inc., and may not 
804.784.3147 FAX        | even be mine. Use at your own risk

[MODERATOR: Seems like we once again start towards discussion which 
should go to either talk.politics.guns, or perhaps misc.legal.  How
about it, folks? ]
From: drj@dev-null.phys.psu.edu (Dan Jeuch)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loading data accuracy?
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:36:38 GMT

In article <480v02oQ303l01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jdg00@ccc.amdahl.com (Josh Grosse) writes:
#I've recently started handloading .40 S&W.  I have three sources of loading
#data:
#    Lyman 47th
#    Accurate Arms Loading Guide
#    Lee data that came with my die set.
#The Lyman data consitantly presents lower starting and maximum loads than the
#Accurate Arms No. 5 data: to the point where the maximum load in the Lyman book
#is close to (or even below) the starting load in the Accurate Arms guide.

Interesting you should point this out, because I've actually had problems
with the Lyman data.  When I went to a local indoor range here, I asked
them what they load to (.380 ACP) and I found some startling results.

I was loading 90gr FMJ .380ACP, which, unfortunately, isn't listed in Lyman's
for Winchester 231 powder.  The minimum I can load using my disc powder
measure is .3 cc, which amounts to around 3.2 gr.  The maximum load listed
in Lyman's (yes, MAX) is 3.1 gr., so I was figuring on very HOT loads.

The results, in my SIG P230, they jammed every 10th round or so.  In a
Walther PPK (known for extremely stiff recoil springs), every or every
other round jammed.  The local club then told me their 'average' load
using the exact same powder was 3.6gr.  Ugh!

Is Lyman's guide that wrong?  I've also loaded .45 ACP using the same
guide, and those numbers 'feel' (recoil vs. factory rounds) reasonable,
and I'm just about to start loading 9mm.  I can easily vary the powder
charge until I get something which seems the same as factory rounds, but
I'd still like to have an accurate guide as to maximum loads, etc.

It almost seems necessary to send Lyman a nice complaint letter... anyone
else having problems?

-Dan
From: nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: trivia
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:44:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


Some random questions:

How does a stripper clip work?  Is it necessary?
What type of action/feed system needs/uses one?

How do drop-in magazines for the SKS work?  Are they as good as SKSes
modified to take AK magazines? 

What type of 7.62 cartridge did the WWII M1 Carbine take?  Is it still
produced?  Can any current 7.62 brass be cut down if need be and loaded
for it?  (Am I even assuming correctly that it IS 7.62?)

Is the Grendel 12 .380 as good as the recent Handgun magazine article made
it out to be?  Or is it just a more expensive Bryco or Davis?

What agencies currently use/issue the Glock 22/23?

Where can a person find CorBon ammo?
(+P, +P+ variety)

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? (oops...
sorry....:>

Nathan


A
A

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       G  O       H  O  U  S  T  O  N 
<<      Nathan A. Horstman      >>  OOOO  IIIIII LL     EEEEEE RRRRR   SSSS  ||
<<   University of Pittsburgh   >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR  RR SS     ||
<< in%"nahst6@vms.cis.pitt.edu" >> OO  OO   II   LL     EEEE   RRRRR   SSSS  ||
<<      nahst6+@pitt.edu        >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR RR      SS ||
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OOOO  IIIIII LLLLLL EEEEEE RR  RR  SSSS  oo
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Saved by the gun
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:01:59 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.


I happened to have "Hardcopy" playing on the TV tonite (12/29/92) and
saw some incredible video.  They are doing a series called "Caught on
Tape".  They showed two amazing sequences taken from surveillance cameras.
The first was an attempted holdup of an armored car at a mall.  The 
surveillance camera caught this guy with money bags in his hands turning
a corner and just as he did, he dropped with two bullets in the back.
A moment later, the armored car guard, himself shot in the gut by the 
punk, came around the corner.  The guard went to the hospital; the 
punk went to the morgue.

Even more amazing was the next segment taken from a convenience store
camera.  Four mexican armed robbers stormed in and hopped the counter.
They robbed the cash register.  In the instant the punks turned their
backs on the owner, he pulled what looked like a 9 mm automatic and 
killed all 4.  He appeared to know what he was doing, discharging 6
shots in a little over 3 seconds.  None had a chance to react.  All
dropped like rags.  This addresses the concept that a gunshot victim
is "blown down" by the shot.  Of course, it was only a 9mm :-)

Another video, unrelated to guns showed a fellow arrested on drunk driving
punching himself in the face after telling the cops he was going to 
get them for brutality.  The funny part was he bragged about how much
embarrasment there was going to be.

In other news tonite, the local news reported a woman kidnapped and raped
after the rapist took her to his house and chained her to the bed.  
He fell asleep after raping the woman.  She got loose from her chains,
got his gun and killed him.  Police say there will be no charges filed.

BTW, if anyone got a tape of "Hardcopy", I'd LOVE to have a copy.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: withrow@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Jim Withrow)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Info on Case and Neck Turning with Forster Trimmer Requested
Date: 29 Dec 92 01:50:16 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center, Power Systems Facility

I am considering purchase of a Forster Trimmer and was wondering if any of 
the rec.guns netters had any experience with it.

I specifically wanted to know if in one operation, I can trim the case 
length and perform neck turning, or do I need to change the setup between 
these two steps?

I would primarly be working with .223 Remmington and 30-06 cases.