HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 09:14:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.194736.13895@acsu.buffalo.edu> chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
>I understand some of you are trying very hard to dis-credit KMT (which
>is none of my business). What I don't understand is why you are so
>eager to give credits to another "foreign regime" who used to colonize
>Taiwan and who used to treat Taiwanese as second-class citizens? Where
>is your "identity" here?
>
>-Chunshi
>
Taiwan has always been a tool for external purposes.  Whatever good have
been done to Taiwan by external authorities are just side effects.
Therefore, no credits have been given to Japanese for their intention.
Under which administration did the best side effects occur is quite
beside the point.  The point is what have been the policies that yields
good side effects.  It is just the same thing to compare the Qing and UK
administration of Hong Kong.  It has nothing to do with identity.

>ps. Hey, are you the guy who claimed that "Romanized Bible" is part of
>the Taiwanese Culture? Did He (Jesus Christ, oops, another "foreigner")
>give you any hints on how to preserve Taiwanese Culture? :-) 

I am an atheist, but I see the Romanized Taiwanese Bible as a part of
the Taiwanese Culture.  I accept Christianity as a part of Taiwanese
Culture.  I accept Susi as a part of Taiwanese Culture.  I accept
MacDonnald as a part of Taiwanese Culture.  I accept Mandarin as a part
of Taiwanese Culture.  Culture is what people live, not what elites
want.

It is time to stop the cycle of culture cleaning by the sequence of
various external administrators.  The new one worked hard to flatten the
creation of the old one.  Then Taiwanese Culture can only stay at the
fundation level.  Love your enermy.  This is the way to strength.

The way to preserve Taiwanese Culture is to reveal that Taiwan has a
cultural history prior to 1949 and embrass Taiwan as it has been until
now.

Tze-yau Huang
From: mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Yeun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Date: 16 Apr 1992 09:45:07 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr16.152420.17845@sbcs.sunysb.edu> 
hsiang@sbhsiang.cs.sunysb.edu (J. Hsiang) writes:
>Unfortunately you have chosen not to discuss the part of my message about
>presidential versus parliamentary, which is really the core of the problem.
>Yes, DPP has been consistent.  

Please stop the accusation first.  It's YOU who switch the topic from the 
discussion of ideology to the topic of presidential versus parliamentary.
I merely moved the discussion back to the original point.  

In article <1992Apr16.152420.17845@sbcs.sunysb.edu> 
hsiang@sbhsiang.cs.sunysb.edu (J. Hsiang) writes:
- But the consistency is more in their goal
- of gaining political power (nothing wrong with that) and less in what
- should really be their concern:  the welfare of the people. 

The long term welfare of the people of Taiwan is the only concern
that I support TI.   For all the TI supporters I personally know, 
including Yao Chia-Wen, Kuo Bei-Hong, Lee Yin-Yuen, Chen Wan-Cheng,
and many others, they all have the same belief.  And they live up with 
their belief.

In article <1992Apr16.152420.17845@sbcs.sunysb.edu> 
hsiang@sbhsiang.cs.sunysb.edu (J. Hsiang) writes:
- In the same vein, KMT has been consistent too, as you described.  

Same as Nazi and George Washington !   But , which one do you choose
to be with ?  :-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: kzumy@watnow.uwaterloo.ca (Kazuo Uezumi)
Subject: Hi, everyone!!!
Originator: kzumy@watnow.waterloo.edu
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:37:54 GMT



Hi, everyone.

This is my first time to post this news group.
I'm Japanese exchange student and stay in Canada for 8 monthes.
So I'll be back to Japan soon.

Since I came over here, I could have a chances to know a lot of Taiwanese 
people and could make friends in Canada ad U.S..
I think Taiwanese people whoever I met before are so nice and kind.

Guess what, I have Taiwanese brother and sister.
And I'll go to Taiwan soon before I goo back to Japan.

I'll try to see everything and have lots of fun things to do in Taiwan where
you, such nice guys came from.

I wish I could get in touch you after going back to Japan...


Kazuo Uezumi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: NP:martial law (state) history
From: kychin@oread.cc.ukans.edu
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:05:16 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Serces

absolutely non-political material.... request for facts, please

Does anybody know when the martial law got into effect? how?
I heard that during the second Japanese-Chinese War (1930's) the 
ROC government declared the "martial state" once.   I am not sure
whether they lifted it after the victory.
What's the difference between   "Chieh4 Yen2" and "Tung4 Yuan2 Kan1 Juan4"
<One of my friends is writing a thesis about history, and he got me.>
Thanks.

Chin/k.u.
From: lynn@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (John Lynn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Macintosh Software
Keywords: Macintosh Software
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:22:18 GMT
Organization: Cornell Theory Center


   Hi,

   I'm looking for a piece of Macintosh software called Hanyin.  It's
   a pinyin input system for ChineseTalk, developed in Taiwan.  Anyone
   know of any software distributers in the US that might have such a 
   thing?

   Thanks!

   John Lynn
   lynn@nr-tech.cit.cornell.edu
From: thuang@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: National Identity (Re: Joe)
Date: 9 Apr 92 00:30:23 GMT

In article <69100@ut-emx.uucp> joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
writes:

>In article <qmk1dINNhn1@agate.berkeley.edu> tyhuang@ocf.berkeley.edu (Tze-yau Huang) writes:
>
>>3. There is land-based nationalsim advocated by independence supporters.
>>4. The fact that both nation and state are defined separately but
>>   simultaneously cannot be viewed as the confusion of the two.
>
>If you wish to argue that separate states must be composed of separate
>nations, then do it.  The problem is that the above TI "argument" is
>not an argument but simply an assertion.
>
1. I never argue that separate states MUST be composed of separate
   nations.
2. Only for those who think the statement is obviously true will say
   that statement is an assertion because the statement has been an
   argument supported by valid premises.
>
>Two completely different things are being promoted.  I have no problem
>with the first thing.  It's the second that I reject.  TIers tend to
>assume that the second follows naturally from the first, but it
>doesn't.
>
Again, I have to direct Joe's attention to the item 4 he quoted from me.
Please understand the phrase "separately but simultaneously."

>What I'm promoting is:
>	Normalization of Taiwan's Sovereign Statehood
>	Amplification of Chinese Consciousness
>	Reduction of land/state-based nationalism
>
>It's different.
>
See, Chinese Consciousness is the land/state-based nationalism of its
worst case.  Some how the Yellow river is worshiped with much more
respect than Tamsui river.  KMT state worship Yellow river so much
through media and educational system etc. but encourages the type of
development that pollutes Taiwan's rivers.  State is constitution of
decision-makers of the land.  With democracy, the state will reflect
the composition of the residents of the land.  Therefore, it is
desirable for the population on the land to love the land.

Also

From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Subject: Re: advice to Mr. Joe Wang
Date: 26 Mar 92 10:46:25 GMT

Joe writes:
>
>In article <qmgt9INNgpr@agate.berkeley.edu> tyhuang@ocf.berkeley.edu 
>(Tze-yau Huang) writes:
>>Joe, I know you for almost a year; how can you say this on the net?
>>Hua-ren is not a national identity?  Tell me it is just a word game.
>
>The problem is that I haven't ever heard of anyone talking about
>"hua-ren" consciousness.
>
Have you ever heard of the sound of my key strokes?  Do you believe that
I have hit my keyboard with my figure numerous times?

Ok, if Hua-ren is not a national identity, what does Hua-yi means?
Yi simbolize kinship!  What can be more nationalistic than that?

Tze-yau Huang
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear))
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 22:37:53 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.170113.18403@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (TAIWAN!!! 5/18/92 ) writes:
>Does the ROC government have the control of Taiwan today?  I think so...
>Does the PRC government have the control of Taiwan today?  I don't think so...
>So what in the world is the debate of which government is legitimate or not?
>Everyone in Taiwan knows that Taiwan was taken over by the KMT after their
>defeat in '49 (now that the 228 incident is included in school text books).
>But everyone also knows that the government is working toward democracy.
>Just look at the number of Taiwanese defending their own land (including me)
>when Scott Horne started posting...that ought to tell lots of people about how
>the people of Taiwan feel about their "own" country.  Also, China better not
>do any stupid moves...'cuz without Taiwan (China's largest trading partner, 
>ironic isn't it?), China's economic growth won't be as fast as it is today.
>*some of the facts above might be out dated...not that much off though*
>
>Steve Chen, dude raised in Kaohsiung...:)
>University of Illinois

	Well said! I dunno why there are so many people out there
	blinding their eyes with their hands, deafing their ears
	with their finger. Most of the people in Taiwan proudly
	regard themselves as citizens of R.O.C.. It's ok if you
	stand in downtown Taipei and say "I don't like KMT at all"
	, nobody will care, maybe someone will even join you. But
	if anyone in the same place say "I hate R.O.C.", ha, you 
	might be beaten by people to death unless policemen come 
	and rescue you. I have lots foreigner friends here who
	are from Russia, Norway, Japan, Korea...and they all know
	that I am from Taiwan, a citizen of Republic of China.

	Paul
From: vorchez@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu (Cameron Campbell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Rents in Taipei
Summary: What can I expect to pay these days?
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:14:32 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Hi,

It looks like I will be in Taipei for a year starting this September,
studying Chinese at either Shida or Taida.  I was just wondering if
anyone could let me know what rent is like in the areas around those
two Universities?  For example, how much to rent a single room with
a shared bathroom?  Two years ago I paid 5000 NT a month for a room
in the apartment of a family living near Shida - does anyone know
whether I should expect to pay more now?

I would really appreciate any information along these lines because
I am putting together a preliminary budget for my year in Taiwan - I
am trying to figure out whether or not my stipend will be sufficient.

Please just mail answers instead of posting them.  If anyone expresses
interest, I can summarize the replies and post them.

Thank you very much
Cameron Campbell (Kang Wenlin)




Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: thuang@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: ++++The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, R.O.C.
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:06:55 GMT

DRAM is one of the few product developed under joint venture with US firms.
How much technology is transfered is questionable.  Actually, the success
in DRAM is not a news, it goes back at least two years ago.  Electronic
industry, in general, aside from its technology, is quite labor intensive.
Most cost in a IC device lies in the labor of assembly.  Once the design is
out, copier can easily reverse engineer the product.  Nevertheless, Taiwan
depents on foreign parts and machines.  In short, being the third shows the
lack of original engineering capability, and if Taiwan can only do most thing
the third with a lot of foreign elements, that means Taiwan has heavy
dependency on foreign technology.

Improvement comes from the understanding of one's own weakness.

Look beyond superficial news reports.

Tze-yau Huang
?
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: ++++The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, R.O.C.
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:25:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: pasteur.1992Apr9.182557.14721
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley

In article <12059@tamsun.tamu.edu> hung@ee.tamu.edu (Tzu-Chien Hung) writes:
>One suggestion for you, next time you'd better say 5-day PC, 3-week 
>scanner about Taiwan. It is more convincing.

It's kind of improvement, but fundamentally, these industries are all
low-tech labor intensive ones.  The capital is expensive in for most
enterprises in Taiwan due to the conservative bank policies.  Therefore,
R&D is really low.  Taiwan is still essentially an assembly island
importing parts, license, and export under OEM contracts.  Taiwan's
economy is still a dependent economy with technology dependency, market
dependency, parts dependency, low-wage dependency, etc.  This is one
topic of Taiwan independence that we usually do not see.


Tze-yau Huang
From: lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Date: 17 Apr 92 20:03:00 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Apr16.151540.10201@acsu.buffalo.edu>, chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
> mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Yeun) writes:
> 
> ------- 1 -------------------------------------------------------------
> >We don't want to credit or discredit any one.   All we have done and 
> >want to do is to unveil the facts. 
> 
> Isn't it a "fact" that Taiwan _now_ is one of the most prosperous
> countries in the world? Isn't it a "fact" all these happen when KMT
> (oops) is the ruling party of ROC? 

    No, Taiwan is not one of the most prosperous countries in the 
world.

    Before ROC, catching up with Japan was a realistic goal; now
nobody imagine it is possible in our lifetime.

    With 15% of the population without health insurance in the U.S.,
the issue has become prominant. And U.S. ranked pretty low among
industrialized nations in this respect. Only 1/3 of the population
in Taiwan are covered with health insurance. And which 1/3?

    Not only catching up with Japan is no longer in sight, the much
boasted role of being among the "4 little dragons" has a dark side
seldom mentioned. For example, I didn't see the other 3 "dragons" 
among the "world garbage dumps". Yes, only this "dragon" had the 
prestidge of being in the rank of Mexico and China. What about mass 
transport system? Does this "dragon" measures up to the other 3?

    

lehhun
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:22:45 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Apr16.165235.13552@SSD.intel.com>, wang@ssd.intel.com (Wen-Lin Wang) writes:
> 
> Definition of 'good' high school in Taiwan in general public's perception is
> how many students they can CRAM into college.  But as a surviving student if
> you cherish your high school life and think your school is good, then it's
> good.  However, to say 'my school is better than yours' is pointless.

	** Well, more than ten years later, you say it is pointless.
	
	   Would you say that when you were freshman in University?
	   If not, there must be some differences, doesn't it? 

	   Imagine you were from Chiang2 Su4 High School and you survived.
	   What would say about Chinag2 Su4 and yourself? 

	   Assume there is no College Entrance Test, do you think all
	   high schools would become the same or similar (like those
	   in US)? At Ohio, may concerned parents (Chinese) are still
	   eagerly try to find out: which high school is better? I bet
	   people in your area are doing the same.
From: yu@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (meng-lin.mark.yu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Junior High
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:45:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <CMM.0.90.2.703359596.jamesou@zygote.hsc.usc.edu> jamesou@ZYGOTE.HSC.USC.EDU (James Ou) writes:
>
>I remember those days in "Hong2 Lou2" (Red Chamber) where we had
>our "Hong2 Lou2 Meng4" (The dream of red chamber). I also
>remember the "Ming2 Dao4 Lou2" (Mingdao building) (Zheng4 Qi2
>Xin1 Bu2 Ji4 Qi2 Li4 [?] and Ming2 Qi2 Dao4 Bu2 Ji4 Qi2 Gong1),
>and the Wooden building (Mu4 Lou2) which was so dangerous and
>eventually had to be torn down.
>
>
>-James Ou
>A boy who was born and brought up in M'ang Ga in Taipei and who
>went to Wan4 Hua2 Chu1 Zhong1 and Jian4 Zhong1 and married a
>graduate of Bei3 Yi1 Nyu3. :-)

Gee, James, are you trying to tell us your age or what?  Sorry, can't resist.

I grew up a few blocks away from Jian4 Zhong1, and actually walked thru the
Wooden building (Mu4 Lo2) as a short cut to my elementary school
(Jian4 Zhong1's neighobr) everyday for a few years. 
The classrooms in Mu4 Lo2 were used at the time.  By the time I went to Jian4
Zhong1 to study, it had gone.    By the time I left Jian4 Zhong1, they had
torn most part of Hong2 Lo2 down.  Anyway, it is nice to hear people sharing
similar good-old-day memory.  In addition, since we went to the same junior
(without entrance exam, thou.  It was a bad school at the time) and senior
high, I think I am obliged to say "hi" to my senior.

Salut,
Meng-Lin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee)
Subject: Re: NON-POLITICAL Gin1 Young's novels
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 10:38:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr07.025924.23241@medsys.rn.com> bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System) writes:

>Do Zhang San Feng and Wu Dang Pai appear in Xiao Au Jiang Hu? Perhaps you
>are thinking about Yi3 Tian1 Tu2 Long2 Ji4?
>
>Chou1

	No. It is in the Yi Tien Tu Long Ji, which setting was at the late Yuan
/Early Ming Dynasty, that The Wu Dang Pai was founded. All I was saying was 
that one of the Jang3 Men2's of Wu Dang Pai was a pretty important character in
Xiao Au Jiang Hu (I think his name was "Chung1 Xu1"... Don't quite remember...)
and I reasonably suppose that guy comes after Jang San Feng, so I suppose the 
whole story of Xiao Au Jiang Hu was set after Yi Tien Tu Long Ji.
From: chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:47:36 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Yeun) writes:

>Please do not overreact.  I didn't see Lehhun was trying to accuse any one.
>
>What Lehhun and other people were trying to convey is that the
>infrastructure and many public systems such as health, transportation,
>education and agriculture were actually built during the Japanese
>occupation era.    However, throughout the entire education system and
>mass media, all these facts were consealed. people were told that all 
>the success Taiwan has ever achieved were due to the leadership of our 
>"Ing-Ming"(talent and bright)"Dah-Yu-Wei"(very capable) government.
>
>Another interesting fact is in the year 1945, one year after the WW II
>ended, Taiwanese team won the first place in the National Game in Shanghai.
>The number of medals won by Taiwan exceeded the total won by all the other 
>teams.   After one year's "robbery" under KMT's corrupted bureaucracy, 
>the only reason that I can come out with to explain the excellent performance
>of Taiwanese is Taiwan had a much higher living standard than anywhere in 
>China at that time.

Sorry if you feel that I am overreacting. It just looks bizarre to me
using epidemic diseases to show that life under Japanese is better
than life in ROC.

I understand some of you are trying very hard to dis-credit KMT (which
is none of my business). What I don't understand is why you are so
eager to give credits to another "foreign regime" who used to colonize
Taiwan and who used to treat Taiwanese as second-class citizens? Where
is your "identity" here?

Besides, if you really think Taiwanese are stupid enough to accept
whatever KMT are telling us, then I feel sorry for you.

Let me repeat again, KMT =/= ROC.

-Chunshi

ps. Hey, are you the guy who claimed that "Romanized Bible" is part of
the Taiwanese Culture? Did He (Jesus Christ, oops, another "foreigner")
give you any hints on how to preserve Taiwanese Culture? :-) 
Please ignore this if you are not the person I thought you are.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 08:10:25 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.131959.18649@descartes.waterloo.edu> cyeh@descartes.waterloo.edu (Woody) writes:
>
>	Is NAZI a party or government or a country?
>
The NAZI party was a party.
The NAZI state was a government.
The NAZI represented the country.
>
>        Ye4, Zhong1 Yi4 (Woody)     Another Kaohsiung Dude.

Tze-yau Huang 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:7367 soc.culture.china:12811
From: mvdvalk@cs.vu.nl (Valk v/d M)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Date: 13 Apr 92 09:47:07 GMT

bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens) writes:

> 
>So, you are saying that you don't believe in self-determination,
>but in military fait accompli as the basis for legitimacy
>of a government?  By that token, perhaps the old thug was
>really the legitimate owner, then? :-)


>(BTW, I think that there is a good case to be made
>that the present prosperity of Taiwan occurred not
>because of the KMT, but that at least initially, 
>the KMT was an obstacle to development...
		-----------------------

Please explain!

>Don't you know as well as I do that these days their is
>no ideological difference left between the fossiles in
>Beijing and the crooks in Taipei?

I think there is. As I have said before, the KMT has never attempted
to destroy the people's (Taoist) religion practices. The PRC has.
Nowadays, the situation in PRC has become slightly better, but much
has been lost (forever?).

Destroying a people's customs and habits, in my opinion, is equal to
actually killing them.

>Now, if you want a real good, polemic subject, what
>about this?  Wouldn't dismemberment be the best thing that 
>could happen in China?  Is there any change for democracy
>without a split in smaller pieces?)

????? I don't understand. What is so different between the Eastern provinces of
PRC anyway?! Of course, one could say the South is becoming rich very rapidly
and the North stays behind. These are however economical differences. What
about ideologies?

The present situation in the former Soviet Union goes to show that a split
doesn't solve anything: most of the time the leaders are quarreling about where
to destroy the nukes and who gets the Black Sea fleet.

About the West: according to 'European and American experts'  the Taklamakan
desert contains as much oil as Quwait. I don't suppose the Chinese will ever
give up this di4 da4 wu4 bo2! What's more, a substantial percentage of the
inhabitants of either Xinjiang and Tibet is Han4 Chinese. What would happen to
them?

The Chinese have had many wars with the Tibetans in the past. The Chinese do
not view the Tibetans as Buddhist freedom fighters as we do in the West, but as
poor and ignorant former-enemies and residents of the PRC. IMHO, the Chinese
are more or less right. Of course, the Tibetans should have the right to
practice their religion. That, btw, is all the Dalai Lama wants as well. He has
never proclaimed an independent Tibet, as far as I know.


Martijn van der Valk
Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
The Netherlands