HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Virginia's proposed gun-a-month law
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:13:40 GMT

In article <8110320@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> post@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (David
Post) writes:

   Dave and everyone else... I did not mean for it to be a red herring.  I
   thought that anyone could get a drivers licence in VA and that false
   drivers licenses were being used to:

   1. establish a false residency

   2. establish a false identity

   3. purchase firearms and remove them from the state

I am re-checking my facts.  I have had some mail, none of which
contains a contradiction, but a lot of which expresses doubt.  I'll
see what I can find out to confirm; this is from a conversation in a
gun store, and may not be totally accurate.

   By the way, how is the instant background check working?

I am not sure anyone knows.  The rate of firearm violence in Virginia
is not high anyway, and has not declined.  Wilder has a certain number
of people refused; I forget what it is, and consider it irrelevant
since a lot are overturned on appeal (I have no idea what the
percentage is).  We have no way of measuring how many people who tried
to purchase a gun for criminal activity were unable too because of a
negative instant check.  Given the black market for guns everywhere,
anyone who allowed a negative instant check to stop them is simply not
trying very hard.

No data on reductions in "passion" crimes.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
From: bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: George Mitchell quote
Date: 26 Jan 1993 11:52:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell (d Me) made his speech
to the National Abortion RIghts Action Leage (NARAL) on
THURSDAY, JANUARY 21ST, NOT FRIDAY, JANUARY 22 as first reported.
A check with CSPAN programming department confirmed that. They 
also have NO plans of broadcasting that speech again. 
The Mitchell quote was:

	A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT YOU CANNOT PRACTICE IS NO RIGHT
	AT ALL; IT'S AN ILLUSION.	

Wonder if he belives that about firearms rights? Hmmmm.
-- 
bb063@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Chris Crobaugh - (216) 327-6655 (V)
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little 
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Subject: Re: the spirit of rec.guns
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: who knows
Date: 26 Jan 1993 09:13 EST  

jhultman@vitalink.com (Jeff Hultman) writes...
>I was watching a PBS special a year ago on Fidel Castro.  During this special
>on Cuba/Fidel there was a short clip of an interview with Fidel in his apartment shot 
>in black and white during the early sixties.  The camera scanned the apartment
>displaying the modest living conditions of the small sized apartment.  Up against
>the wall leaned an FN/FAL.  As the camera panned past the propped up rifle the
>BBS news reporter commented on the "INTRUDER "RIFLE".  I feel this term 
>counters the connotations surrounding the term "assault rifle".  I do agree
>that it is time to start referring to semi-autos with a "different look"
>as assault rifles.


What a joke: if you are of the communist or left-wing persuasion and you own
an assault rifle, then you own an 'intruder rifle' but if you are of a 
different persuasion then you own an evilbabyandbambikiller-andtherefore-
mustbebanned assault weapon.  How quaint!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Dressed for Rape
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:36:16 GMT

In article <zan3=zd@rpi.edu> vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes:
>Newtonian fizzicks, which they taught to old timers like me).  
>You've implied quite strongly in this thread that bullets only go where the
>gun is pointed.  Could you give me the full version of how this works?

For money, sure.  Most people can figure it out.  (Hint: stop being
pedantic and think about a useful definition of "point".  Guess what -
the NRA courses teach about this sort of thing.  But then, Van Etten
doesn't care to know anything about that.  He's got his safety and
he's happy.)

-andy
--
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Subject: Re: Bazooka for sale!
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: who knows
Date: 25 Jan 1993 11:44 EST  

>by skronkvi@aton.abo.fi (Stefan Kronkvist INF):
>...
>> Should rape and murder be legal? It is impossible to stop so why keep fighting
>> it?You could get a license to kill or rape for example 8 persons/year.

Another illiterate idiot to add to my kill file :-(
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Guns and  Boston Crack Dealers (Was: Dressed for Rape)
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:08:44 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <9301232357.56@rmkhome.UUCP>, rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:

> A quick check system would probably also make the gun store owners liable
> for civil suits.

This is simply supposition.  Laws can be written any way you choose.  Under
the Brady Bill, the police chief is NOT liable either for allowing a known
criminal to buy a gun or for denying a gun to a law-abiding citizen.  Why?
Because the text of the law explicitly says so.  Now, we may both understand
that legislators are less likely to automatically cover the asses of private
gun dealers than those of their fellow public servants, but that doesn't 
mean they CAN'T do it.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Dressed for Rape
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:54:45 GMT
Organization: Sun
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: concertina

In article <hdg37#q@rpi.edu> vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes:
>C. D. Tavares writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>>Have you seen the modern NRA safety course curriculum?  The entire
>>discussion of safeties runs something like, "Some guns have safeties.
>>Here's one that has a safety.  Don't depend on them for anything.
>>They have nothing to do with real gun safety."  And then they are
>>never referred to, identified, or used for the rest of the course.  
>
>Wow.  Hey, thanks for making me aware of this.  I'll make a point of
>*never* recommending an NRA-sponsored safety course to anyone again,
>if this is true. :-(

John!  Hang on a minute; I think I've figured out your problem:

You feel that safety is an important issue.  That's good.

Unfortunately, at the same time, you can't see that an important issue
can also be simple.

Relax.

This obsession with mechanical safety devices is just a sname to complicate
things and actually reduce overall safety.

Awareness of what you're doing while handling firearms, and *concentration*
on what you're doing is the key here.  Problem is, it is simple.  Maybe
too simple?


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Talk Show Poll Results
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:05:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AC Nielsen Co., Bannockburn IL


Just a quick followup on the results of yesterday's WLS Talk Radio
poll.  The question was (something like) "would you be in favor of
allowing concealed carry of handguns for qualified (i.e. trained,
background check, etc.) individuals?"  Listener response was very
heavy and the results:

    89% were FOR concealed carry permits
    11% were AGAINST concealed carry permits

For part of an unrelated segment, the head of the Chicago Fraternal
Order of Police was present and he voiced the opinion that [PARAPHRASING]
"only retired police officers should have that option" stating that
"only cops would have the skill and judgement to carry responsibly"

Interestingly enough, _every_ other police officer (at least those people
who identified themselves as such) who phoned in was FOR allowing the
average citizen to carry handguns.  The people who got through (alas, not
me) were well-armed with facts AND sources and quickly shot down all of
the standard propaganda put forth by the pro-control host.

+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|      John Kapson      |                                                     |
| NRA               ILA |      "...to disarm the people (is) the best         |
| jkapson@nis.naitc.com |      and most effective way to enslave them..."     |
|                       |      George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380         |
|                       |                                                     |
+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|                  PGP Public Key available via email                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: wjg@bluemoon.use.com (william grimm)
Subject: Re: Bazooka for sale!
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 02:47:43 EST

> While not wishing to be pedantic, I cannot see how these people's
> trust/faith in their government caused their demise at the hands of an
> aggressor. In the case of Hitler, if the jews had more personal guns
> this may have given him a better excuse to kill them.
>  
Seems you haven't read your history books very well- when the Jews did 
manage to get guns and defend themselves - as they did in the Warsaw 
ghetto- they made a pretyy good show of it.  Held off some of Hitler's 
crack SS troops for- what was it?- 88 days?
The VC had alot of "personal guns" also- and they managed to give our army 
fits.  How do you support this notion that an armed populace is 
defenseless against a government?

 This is from
     wjg@bluemoon.use.com
who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet
From: bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Clinton bans imports of guns&ammo already
Date: 25 Jan 1993 11:16:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


At this weekend's gun show, a dealer I talked to who sells AKS's
claimed that on Friday the US State Department refused to issue
whatever permits (Form 6?) is required; the dealer claimed that
all firearm and ammo importing has stopped as of Friday (Jan 22).
I have no idea if this is true, but I suggest a flood of phone 
calls to the Capitol switchboard (to call congressmen and senators
) starting at 0900 EST Monday Jan 25th.
It looks like the government of the United States is ready to 
declare war on the citizens of same who insist on exercising 
certain constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Also, BTW, someone last week or over the weekend asked for the 
source of the quote
   "A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT THAT CANNOT BE PRACTICED IS NO RIGHT
AT ALL; IT'S AN ILLUSION."

That little gem came to us from Senate Majority LEader George
Mitchell (D Me), who used the line in a speech to the
National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) on Friday
afternoon Jan 22. CSPAN was running the speech and I remembered
someone wanting it.
-- 
bb063@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Chris Crobaugh - (216) 327-6655 (V)
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little 
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
From: jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Need stats
Keywords: liberal media bullshit
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:09:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AC Nielsen Co., Bannockburn IL


Greetings, Everyone!

Two quick items:

(1) WLS Talk Radio's "Feedback Phone Question" today is (something like)
    `would you support legalized concealed carry permits for trained,
     qualified individuals?'  Currently, results are running about
     80% FOR and 20% AGAINST (I haven't even been able to get through,
     yet, damned busy signals).  If you're in the Chicago area and
     have a dime to waste, phone (312)578-0101 to vote FOR or
     (312)578-0808 to vote AGAINST.

(2) One of the more liberal hosts made an offhand comment that the
    stats show that in areas where this has been implemented, there
    has been in increase in general shootings, like people in barfights
    shooting each other, etc.  He cited no source, of course of course,
    and I think he's full of shit.  Does anyone have any stats (with
    sources) on this that I can phone in and rub his nose in?

+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|      John Kapson      |                                                     |
| NRA               ILA |      "...to disarm the people (is) the best         |
| jkapson@nis.naitc.com |      and most effective way to enslave them..."     |
|                       |      George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380         |
|                       |                                                     |
+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|                  PGP Public Key available via email                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Subject: Re: Dressed for Rape
Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:15:33 GMT

Jerry Hollombe writes:

[lots of stuff deleted]
[JSVE writes:]
>}it's there).  They're saying to not bother learning to use safeties at
>}all, in the literal interpetation of their words (as paraphrased by
>}C.D. Tavares).  ...
>
>C.D. Tavares is wrong.  Nowhere, in any of the NRA lesson plans, does it
>say to ignore safeties.  If some NRA instructor said anything like that in
>a class he was expressing his own opinion, not NRA policy.  IMHO, it's a
>damn stupid opinion.  If anyone of his students gets hurt because of it
>and sues him the NRA will probably throw him to the wolves, and rightly
>so.
>
>The NRA classes stress safe gun handling and warn not to _rely_ on
>safeties.  Nowhere do they say not to _use_ them.  That's the important
>distinction that seems to have been missed in this discussion.  One should
>_always_ use whatever safety options are available, but _never_ rely on
>mechanical safeties as a substitute for proper gun handling procedure.
>
>Note that every firearm user's manual I've ever read has taken the same
>attitude.  They all stress safe gun handling and warn against reliance on
>mechanical safeties.

Jerry, thanks a million for clearing this up.  It saves me a lot of
grief, since I'm not too into heated conversations with fellow RKBAers
(all of whom I consider "friendlies" -- even Andy ;-).  I'll have to
ask that you all forgive me for the misunderstanding.  I guess I was a
little too quick in my acceptance of the paraphrase about the modern
NRA courses dismissing safeties as unimportant.  However, bear in mind
that I haven't taken the modern version (it's been the better part of
30 years since I learned about gun safety), and knew that C.D. was
familiar with it.  Since I was misinformed (no doubt unintentionally),
I'll have to retract my statement about my disappoinment in the NRA
safety courses and continue to send folks their way.

Thanks again, Jerry, for clarifying this.  See, I told you we agree
about firearms safety. :-)


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Subject: Re: Clinton bans imports of guns&ammo already
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: who knows
Date: 27 Jan 1993 12:09 EST  

bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh) writes...
> 
>At this weekend's gun show, a dealer I talked to who sells AKS's
>claimed that on Friday the US State Department refused to issue
>whatever permits (Form 6?) is required; the dealer claimed that
>all firearm and ammo importing has stopped as of Friday (Jan 22).

Has there been any additional info on this?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: mjp@austin.ibm.com  (Michael J. Phelps)
Subject: Re: Need stats
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 11:49:02 GMT
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Organization: IBM Kingston NY
Keywords: liberal media bullshit


In article <gF6ZXB2w164w@upchrch.UUCP>, joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
|> jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson) writes:
|> 
|> > (1) WLS Talk Radio's "Feedback Phone Question" today is (something like)
|> >     `would you support legalized concealed carry permits for trained,
|> >      qualified individuals?'  Currently, results are running about
|> 
|> > (2) One of the more liberal hosts made an offhand comment that the
|> >     stats show that in areas where this has been implemented, there
|> >     has been in increase in general shootings, like people in barfights
|> >     shooting each other, etc.  He cited no source, of course of course,
|> >     and I think he's full of shit.  Does anyone have any stats (with
|> >     sources) on this that I can phone in and rub his nose in?
|> 
|> I can't give a proof, but in Florida between 89 and 91 the homicide
|> rate has gone DOWN 15%, while the overall U.S. rate has gone UP 12%.
|> Also as far as I know there are over 100,000 people with CCW in
|> Florida and I only know of one case where a CCW holder used a firearm
|> in a felonious assault. In that case the guy lied about some of the
|> information he supplied on his application. You might be interested by
|> an article by Marion Hammer in the Nov. 91 issue of Guns & Ammo
|> concerning the success of the Florida CCW program. I also want to
|> point out the absurdity of the point about bar fights since most
|> places I know of that allow CCW don't allow it in bars.
|> 

A while ago i called the NY state police records department to try and get
statistics about the CCW permit program (eg how many get revoked, and why - dwi,
violent crime ..).  The officer i spoke to said that the state didn't keep those
stats.  That would strongly imply that (as i'd expect) the CCW holders aren't the
problem.  Certainly if there were any significant number of CCW holders
committing crimes Gov. Cuomo would waste no time exploiting it.
-- 
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
                (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy         
 (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..       
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: "Sniper" with John Berringer
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:50:25 GMT
Organization: Acadia University

In article <1993Jan22.125735.11279@cbnews.cb.att.com> lvc@cbvox1.att.com writes:
#From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com
#Subject: "Sniper" with John Berringer
#Date: 22 Jan 93 14:08:39 GMT

#I was watching the Military Industrial Complex channel (A&E) last night
#and saw an advertisement for a new movie called "Sniper" starring John
 								   ^^^^
#Berringer.  The movie starts playing, I believe, Feb. 24th.  Look for it
#at a theatre near you, and all that ...

#One of the voiceovers during the ad said, "One shot, one kill"  Hmm,
#sounds very familiar; I wonder if material from Carlos Hathcocks' book
#was used, or if he or any of the men in his book was a consultant.
#-- 
#Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com

     Uhhh, that's *Tom* Berringer, not John.  There was a short article on 
the movie in *International Military Review* last fall, and although it's 
been a while since I read it, I think they had a retired Marine sniper 
working as "technical" advisor on the movie.  From the commercials I've seen 
for it, it looks as if they listened to him. . . .
     It's one of my "must sees".

						Jason
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: TV and Movies are Promoting Gun Violence
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 04:15:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.223737.3635@dg-rtp.dg.com> meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers) writes:
>Hmmm, sounds like time to mention Centerwall again:
>>If Dr. Brandon Centerwall's conclusion is correct, TV also has more
>...
>than doubled homicide rates in South Africa, adding to its other
>problems.

Did Centerwall do a study of violence on Japanese television and if
that had an impact on violence in Japan ?

The reason I ask is Japanese television, from what I understand,
is pretty gory, yet violence in Japan is very low.  So, there's much
more to the "cause" of violence than tv.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Subject: Re: Bazooka for sale!
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:48:49 GMT

In <1k7800INNr6q@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:

>in my state it is illegal to leave a handgun unattended in a cat.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                     I should hope so! :-)
 
Of course, you meant

it is illegal to leave a handgun unattended in a can.


Sorry, 44 hours until the weekend...


-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (I don't speak for Motorola)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: Radio: Gov. Wilder vs. LaPierre
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:37:16 GMT


Gee, a transcript would be awesome! Anyone?
Either or both would be appreciated.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:27190 talk.politics.misc:70188
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: On the eve of Bill's (not so) Excellent Adventure
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:27:48 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <ATAYLOR.93Jan22093135@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
writes:
> <  Yeah, good thing we got that evil John Kennedy out of the way.
>
><   What?  He was an NRA member?  Ooops...
>
>	So was George Bush.
>
>	What was Baldwin's point, again?

Oh, John was taking about JFK's assasination as if it was a good thing.
Personally, if I had to name a corrupt politician, it WOULDN'T be JFK.
Yet, the murder of that one NRA member did much to get the gun control
loonies going.

They let Bush in the NRA?  Wow, I guess they will take anyone!

   don
Organization: Doctoral student, Materials Science and Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA