HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 08:52:31 GMT

thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: In article <1aue65INNlm5@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au 
: (INFIDEL) writes:
: 
: - Narva might declare itself as a free city (with violence).
: - There might be some border skirmishes between Estonia and Russia
: - The Russians could start trade embargo against Estonia (which is
:   almost warfare, since the country is still occupied by Russian forces)
: - The occupation of Estonia might continue.
: 
Estonia and for instance Karelia is an ethnic heaven
 for the russians/ukrainians/belarussians
compared with Tadzikistan,Uzbekistan,Azerbeidzhan,Georgia, Chechen-
Inguschia,Abhazia etc. you name them. The Russian Army will have
the hands full of work and busy to save the lives of Russians
in those areas during coming years.

I just wonder if the Russian Army will have an all front war along
its boundaries which are tens of thousands of kilometres long.
I also wonder if the young russian men really want spent their 
younghood by fighthing in a war everywhere like their fathers and
grand-fathers did. The Russian Army in order to hold his position of
course will see it very important to protect the russians but at the
same time the army will protect his own postion in the society.
The wisest thing what Yeltsin and the Moscowites would do is to
keep hands off Estonia,Latvia and Lithuania and not to provoce problems
over there, because I think they have already enough of them.
And of those problems you rally cannot blame the Balts and Estonians.
Jarmo  
SUOMI
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Human rights in ESTONIA
Date: 11 Oct 92 09:35:39 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

I found this in my email and post it forward:

> 10/09 1504  ESTONIA REJECTS RUSSIAN CRITICISM ON HUMAN RIGHTS
> 
>     By Fredrik Dahl HELSINKI, Oct 9, Reuter - Estonian President
>     Lennart Meri, responding to criticism by Russian President
>     Boris Yeltsin, said on Friday that human rights were better
>     guaranteed in Estonia than they ever had been in Russia.
>     Meri, sworn in as the Baltic republic's president on Tuesday,
>     said Estonia had invited a team from the Conference on
>     Security and Cooperation in Europe (CSCE) to inspect human
>     rights there. "But we expect also that the Russian foreign
>     ministry will invite another team to inspect the possible
>     violations of human rights in Russia," he told Reuters during
>     a visit to Helsinki. Yeltsin said on Thursday that Moscow
>     would not sign accords on withdrawing former Soviet troops
>     from Estonia and Latvia until they agreed to guarantee
>     minority rights for ethnic Russians. Russian speakers in the
>     two Baltic states were being humiliated and denied basic
>     human rights in violation of international agreements, he
>     said. Questioned about Yeltsin's remarks, Meri said they were
>     part of a difficult process of negotiations. "I think that
>     Russia has difficult times and to a certain extent is forced
>     to use a tough language, a language contradicting the final
>     act of the Helsinki CSCE meeting..." He was referring to the
>     CSCE act signed in Helsinki in July calling for the "early,
>     orderly and complete" withdrawal of foreign troops from the
>     Baltic republics. Meri, whose Fatherland party advocates
>     sweeping away all vestiges of 1940-1991 Soviet rule, was
>     elected president by parliament on Monday, despite coming
>     only second in national elections on September 20. Both
>     Estonia and Latvia have introduced citizenship laws which
>     effectively reduced much of their big Russian-speaking
>     populations to second-class status. But Meri, rejecting
>     criticism from Russia, said Estonia's laws were much more
>     liberal than most similar legislation in other countries,
>     both in Europe and elsewhere. "We are convinced that in
>     Estonia human rights are far better guaranteed than they ever
>     have been in Russia..." he said. "And we hope that the
>     process of democratisation in Russia will prevail and that
>     one day we will have a friendly democratic neighbour using a
>     more European language in dealing with small neighbours." He
>     added: "Estonia is doing everything it can to convince Russia
>     that all we have said is said honestly, all we feel towards
>     Russia is real feeling of friendship towards the Russian
>     people..."

the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnicity in Estonia and Lithuania
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:15:14 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <10SRB5YK@cc.swarthmore.edu>, abayer1@cc.swarthmore.edu (A. Penikis)
> Does anyone have, or know where I might find, 1989 Soviet census data on
> Estonia and Lithuania by cities and raioni?  I have not had any luck in
> tracking down such detailed
> data.

Have you already checked:

The Baltic States. A Reference Book.
Estonian encyclopeadia publishers - Latvian Encyclopedia publishers -
Lithuanian encyclopedia publishers

Tallin - Riga - Vilnius 1991

ISBN 5 - 89900 - 017 - 1
ISBN 5 - 89960 - 026 - 8
ISBN 5 - 89950 - 015 - 8

But perhaps you need even more detailed data.

with the best regards,
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA Against Jews
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 09:30:22 GMT

oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>Is it not this sickening that no one on the net from the Baltic
>region said anything to the effect that he/she is ashamed of these
>Estonian actions ? Prove you are not fascists - say 'down with
>fascism, down with Estonian neo-Nazis'.

Do you want people to officially deny that they are not Nazis? Should we
all repeat in choir that 'Nazism is bad'? Why don't all the Russians
in the net say 'down with Pamyat, down with Russian ultra-nationalism'?

If you think it's possible to blame entire Estonian nation because there
was an Estonian Waffen-SS Legion, you might as well blame all Russians
and Ukrainians for Vlasov's Army.

Russian people cannot be blamed for occupation and annexation of Baltic
states in 1940. In the same way, why should Baltic nations be accused for 
collaborating with the Nazis or being 'anti-semitic'. Same people
who claim that Estonians are Nazis and that Baltic governments conspired
with illegal Bolshevik governments, are boldly denying all responsibility
that Russian people have of communist terror. 

>Oleg Vishnepolsky

Janne Kivela"
      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA Against Jews
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:28:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: ohstpy.14268.2aded1a9

In article <1992Oct15.093503.9141@cs.hut.fi>, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
> viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
> 
>>to be more precise - most Jews in Estonia were killed
>>not by Germans, but Estonian volunteers from SS
> 
> Just because Sergey Vizhnyuk says so doesn't mean that this sentence
> has any base in reality. And even if this claim were true, would it
> have any relevance today?

Unless it didn't have relevance to todays situation
in Estonia, nobody would have been interested in feasts
of Estonian volunteers from SS fifty years ago.

> Serega, what do you think was the fate
> of the Estonian SS men after the war in the hands of the Soviets?
> Do you believe they led their lives happily everafter?

No less happily than Soviet POWs in the hands of Germans and their
Estonian lakeys.

Serega & Co
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: CAU$E$ OF WAR$
Date: 11 Oct 1992 02:27:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

You forgot important fact, which should be added to your valuable list.
in 30-is CIA mind-controllers made Russian insurgents to dig the tunnel
from Bombay to London, under middle Asia, with apparent aim of:

1. Draining oil field.
2. Drawning Btitain and it's main former colony in oil.

Only poor state of technology, available to insurgents and good job,
made by NKVD prevented disaster.
You may get further information in the Russian newspapers "Den'" and
"Nash sovremennik"

S kommunisticheskim privetom:
Yury
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Military coup in Russia ?
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:29:41 GMT

In article <14261.2adebdf1@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> vadim@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct16.132642.17210@watson.ibm.com>, oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>> Yesterday I listened to Prof. Sachs on CNN who is an American that
>> helped Mr. Gaidar to devise the economic reforms in Russia.
>> Dr. Sachs stated that economic situation in Russia has been going
>> downhill very steeply for the last 3 months mainly because the
>> reform plan was abandoned in favor of financing military-industrial
>> complex by sharply increasing money supply (printing more money
>> to pay for its production). The inflation is about 30% a MONTH,
>> and should increase even higher. Dr. Sachs described current
>> political situation as highly unstable because of economic one
>> and said that a putsch is possible within a few weeks to a few months.
>> Even if putsch does not happen, in December the newly reconvened parliament
>> will probably give reformists and democrats an ax. In April
>> when they met last, they gave a green light to reformers on the
>> premise of huge foreign aid. There have been no aid at all - mostly
>> due to economic turmoil in G7 countries.
>> 
>> Oleg V
>  
>   I guess that the steep turn in the internal politics of Russia is
>going to happen in the beginning of December because I connect it
>with the next congress of the people deputies scheduled on December 1st.
>But it's difficult to say whether it's going to be turn from good
>to bad or vice versa as Mr.Gaidar's reforms simply did not work.
>Sorry, there was one credit to Mr.Gaidar (the ruble became temporary
>stable) but the rest ...  
>   The is no such a foreign aid which could be able to really help
>Russia. 24 billion dollars is almost nothing for Russia. Therefore
>not G7 are guilty but the current government is totally responsible
>for that. And they are guilty even more if they hoped that $24 b.
>"smogut spasti otsa russkoy demokratii"
>   Lets see what happens.
>Vadim.
I read an article on Times magazine around Jan. 1992, when the "reform" in
russia started. It praised a professor from Harward for his "talent" in 
in engineering Russia's "shock threpy". But one month later, I read from U.S.
media, it turned from the professor's "shock threpy" to "Yeltsin' shock
threpy".
I do not remember the name of the professor, was it Prof. Sachs?
When things go soar, fingers always point at others.
From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA?
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:23:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: ohstpy.14267.2aded048

In article <1992Oct15.095157.23023@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
> viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> : 
> :   Your feeble attempts to embelish Estonian regime look
> : like those of mentally disaranged. While confronting with
> : facts you blabber away with "I will check, I will call..".
> : Call you doctor - I bet he/she will tell you the devastating truth...
> : 
> : Serega & Co
> 
> Well Hietaniemi at least tries to find facts and he does it quite well.

If you read carefully what Hietaniemi writes, you would
note, that Mr. Hietaniemi raiterates not to his knowledge
of facts, but rather to his ignorance of them.

> I think in the prpagada against Estonia only the facts count and counter-
> facts. Why you are not satisfied  with the
> facts?  You should bring some facts as well to this discussion.

When a country denies 42% of its population the electorial
rights, poses the territorial claims to neighbors, threats
its minorities as second-class humans, deprives them almost
of any rights on the basis of their ethnicity - what other
facts do you need, dear Jarmo ? Can you disprove any of these
facts ? You cannot, because they are as they are, and it doesn't
matter how Estonian regime is justifying its policies. Until now
the only "justification" the Estonian goverment is providing
for its fascist practices against non-Estonians, is that
they are "non-citizens" (well, they declared them as "non-citizens").

> Hietaniemi is bringing facts to this newsgroup from those sources
> which are available.

OK, which "facts" did he bring ?

> If someone claims that the estonians press writes
> that and that he has it quite easy to check whether it is propaganda
> or not. Some russians seem not to like it. Should we cut the telephone
> lines between Finland and Estonia and return to the "old good times"
> when you had to phone to Estonia via Moscow. Are you one of those
> nostalgics which dream back to old good times?

Bla, bla, bla... 

> 
> Regards,
> Jarmo Ryyti
> :  

Serega & Co
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA Against Jews
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:30:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.093058.12192@cs.hut.fi> linnan@sandman.cs.hut.fi (Matti Linnanvuori) writes:
>In <Bw0MzE.B3y@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>>    Must be an industrious man, as he managed to desecrate 80 graves.
>>    Is this the same guy who kept publishing anti-Semitic articles
>>    in the mainstream Estonian press and came up with the idea of
>>    celebrating the 50th anniversary of the 20th division of the SS?

>  In 1944 the Germans were leaving Estonia, and the Waffen-SS troops
>consisting of Estonians were the only way the Estonians could defend
>their country from the Soviet invaders. It is very easy to use the
>decision of those desperate Estonians to promote your anti-Estonian
>rage. 

Excuse me, but who's desperate *now*?  Why must one celebrate this
fifty years later?  Was there anything particularly *good* about 
the SS?  They were, after all, a criminal organization, according to
the Nuremberg Tribunals...what Estonians did *then* wasn't even under
discussion; but some of us would like to know why Nazis are considered
anything but tyrants *NOW*.

>These SS troops did not kill any Jews, partly because the
>Germans had already killed most of Jews living in Estonia.

These particular ones, no.  Not in Estonia, anyway.  Of course, had
they succeeded in keeping the Soviet troops out, they would have 
enslaved Estonia even worse, to the point of famines, forced
population control, slave labor, etc.  Andthey would have killed 
many millions more elsewhere.  These folks need a party?

Roger


Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Kuwaiti Estonia ?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:16:09 GMT

In article <1avp9cINN4cg@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>>Recheck your math.  If 40% of the whole population cannot vote, and this 40%
>>includes children, it means that the 40% number is misleadingly high.  If
>>the children are equally distributed among ethnic groups, that 40% number
>>will _still_ go down after you leave out the children.
>a-number of Russian non-citizens
>b-number of citizens
>x-percentage of children below 21 years
>Given:
>Ratio of populations is:
>a/b=.4/.6
>Question:
>What is the ratio of adult population (voters)?
>Solution:
>(a-xa)/(b-xb)=a/b (1-x)/(1-x)=a/b=.4/.6
>Answer:
>40%

You've just proven that if the ratio of Russians to Estonians is one number,
the ration of Russian adults to Estonian adults is the same number.

a=number of Russian non-citizens
b=number of citizens
x=percentage of children of non-voting age
a-ax=number of Russian adults
b-bx=number of Estonian adults
ax=number of Russian children
bx=number of Estonian children

Assume that Estonian adults can vote, and the other three categories cannot:

If 40% of the whole population cannot vote, then
([a-ax]+ax+bx) / ([a-ax]+[b-bx]+ax+bx) = .4  or (a+bx)/(a+b) = .4
The ratio for adults only is
(a-ax)/([a-ax]+[b-bx]).  This is always less than (a+bx)/(a+b), assuming that
x is less than one (which it is, being a percentage).
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: JL7899@albnyvms.bitnet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: subscribe
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:29:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

My name is Jason Lenkowitz and would like to subscribe to the service.  Thank yo
   u.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA?
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 09:51:57 GMT

viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu wrote:
: In article <1992Oct12.003251.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: > In article <Bvt9yr.2IC@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com 
: > (Alex Goykhman) writes:
: >> In article <1992Oct8.131103.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
: > writes:
: > expressed?
: 
: In Zulu..
: 
: > 
: >> "The Jews of Estonia are frightened, and they are leaving" said Buzzy
: >> Gordon, a B'nai Brith spokesman.
: >> ....
: > 
: > No new information. Just empty accusations.
: 
: Better check with your doctor.
: 
: > this kind of celebration has taken place, I must emphasize.
: 
:   Your feeble attempts to embelish Estonian regime look
: like those of mentally disaranged. While confronting with
: facts you blabber away with "I will check, I will call..".
: Call you doctor - I bet he/she will tell you the devastating truth...
: 
: Serega & Co

Well Hietaniemi at least tries to find facts and he does it quite well.
I think in the prpagada against Estonia only the facts count and counter-
facts. Why you are not satisfied  with the
facts?  You should bring some facts as well to this discussion.
Hietaniemi is bringing facts to this newsgroup from those sources
which are available. If someone claims that the estonians press writes
that and that he has it quite easy to check whether it is propaganda
or not. Some russians seem not to like it. Should we cut the telephone
lines between Finland and Estonia and return to the "old good times"
when you had to phone to Estonia via Moscow. Are you one of those
nostalgics which dream back to old good times?


Regards,
Jarmo Ryyti
:
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Furstenberg and other things
Date: 8 Oct 1992 07:03:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au


The Oct 3 issue of the Melbourne "Age" newspaper carries an article
written by Mark Aarons. "His book, `Sanctuary: Nazi Fugitives in
Australia' documents the history of the war crimes issue [in
Australia?]. His ABC [Australian Broadcasting Commission] documentary
series on the same topic led to the setting up of the Menzies inquiry in
1986."

The article includes excerpts from signed and sworn testimony of four
former members of the Latvian Arajs Kommando ("One of the most efficient
killing machines in the Baltic area"), each of whom spent many
years in prison for their "relatively minor parts in the Nazi
extermination program in and around Minsk in 1942 and 1943".

"The squad was commanded by Victors Arajs, whose name later became
synonymous with the SD-controlled auxiliary police units that conducted
mass executions in and around Riga from 1941 onwards. Arajs was a former
student of Riga University, and he recruited the heirarchy of officers
who supervised the executions from among his former classmates. [text
deleted]"

"Thirty five years later, Viktors Arajs was tried in Hamburg, West
Germany, charged with war crimes associated with the Kommando. The West
German court convened in Melbourne in October 1979 to take evidence
from Arajs's old friend and colleague Janis A [currently living in
melbourne], who said he knew nothing about the atrocities against Jews
and Gypsies.

"However, when Arajs was found guilty, the court made a point of
dismissing Janis A's evidence, on the ground that the Soviets had
claimed he was a suspected member of the Arajs Kommando from as early as
1941.

"[text deleted] 'I know that when I was on [guard] duty, a total of 10 000
people were shot' [testifies the former private Janis Prieditis] on four
or five occassions alone". 

"[Text deleted] In early September [this year], the former director of
the [Australian] Federal Government's war crimes unit, Bob Greenwood,
QC, strongly attacked the Government's decision to abandon the proposed
prosecution of Janis A....[The Director of Public Prosecutions had said
that it was] 'a good case, subject to a little more investigative
work'".


The Latvian Nationalists would be pleased to know the Australian
government's initiative.  It means, after all, they now have to face up to
one less dark episode of their history.



John W.
Perth, Western Australia
From: vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (Vadim S. Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Komi (was: nemnogo o Stepane )
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:18:57 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.103856.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi  
writes, among other things:
> 
> In the XUSSR, anything that slightly resembles of a state, has already
> declared itself "sovereign", whatever it means. This applies even to Komi 
> republic. And, I suppose even to the other republic (which was unknown to
> me).

An old joke about the Komi ASSR is that the Komi people are not the
largest "national" (ethnic) group there, or even the second-biggest,
but only a distant third.  The majority of KomiASSR's population are
Z/K (prisoners), and the largest minority are VOKhRA (guards).

The trouble with that joke is that it was uncomfortably close to the
truth.  So when I hear KomiASSR has recently declared sovereignty,
I cannot help wandering, sovereignty for whom?

--
**********************************************************************
Vadim S. Kaplunovsky,              | #include <std_disclaimer.h>
Assistant Professor of Physics,    |
University of Texas at Austin.     | My English isn't THAT bad,
vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu         | but my typing stinks:-(.