From: nsv@heifetz.msen.com (Naomi S. Valentine)
Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
Subject: (Fat) girls just wanna have...what?
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:29:09 GMT
Organization: MSEN, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI
NNTP-Posting-Host: heifetz.msen.com
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Avery Ray Colter writes:

>Newsgroups: alt.support.big-folks
>Path: med.umich.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!avery
>From: avery@netcom.com (Avery Ray Colter)
>Subject: Re: Fat women in the movies!
>Message-ID: <7+xmc3f.avery@netcom.com>
>Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 02:40:57 GMT
>Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 
guest) 
>References: <1992Aug4.015340.411@msen.com>
>Lines: 31

>nsv@msen.com (Naomi S. Valentine) writes:

>>(0(0(0(0(0(0(0(0  n a o m i    v a l e n t i n e  (0(0(0(0(0(0(0(0

>>     On that day                    Fat women
>>     Ripples will spread,           Are not few.
>>     Fat will undulate,             When we rise
>>     Swell, sprawl,                 The earth will shake.
>>     Rampant,                             - Christine Donald
>>     Surging, insurgent.                    from "Dies Irae"
>> 

>And on that day,
>The few fierce/angry/joyous/sensuous males
>Whose minds and bodies and spirits were made for the purpose
>Will revel in that rampant surge,
>Will take up the spread in their arms,
>Will dive headlong into the swell,
>Will purr to the undulations.

>When you rise,
>You carry their heartfelt dreams
>Betwixt every rolling wave.

>- Avery Ray Colter
>  on the spur of the moment.

Avery's post set me to thinking about several issues, which I'd like to 
explore with the clear understanding that this is absolutely not a 
personal attack on him.  In fact, I enjoyed his post/poem very much. 
 
I've sometimes been distressed that when I describe to thin men (and 
some thin women, and some fat men and women) the problems that fat women 
face, they very often respond by telling me how attractive they've found 
(certain) fat women.  Part of this is probably part of our culture's 
Hollywood obsession with romantic love, as if that were the only thing 
in life with the capacity to make people happy or unhappy.  But to the 
fat woman who faces job discrimination, familial persecution in one form 
or another, hunger, self-hatred, and general hostility from random 
people on the street, the fact that her conversation partner has found 
fat women attractive does not always comfort her.  In fact, sometimes it 
sounds suspiciously similar to a white person saying, "Some of my best 
friends are black" - a rather defensive way of attempting to exempt 
oneself from any oppressor group.  

And, in fact, to the fat woman, such a statement may be completely 
irrelevant - after all, some fat women form romantic attractions to men 
- but just like thin women, some don't--and may not care whether men 
find them attractive.  Like thin women, some fat women form romantic 
attractions to other women, or are bi-sexual - or remain celibate.

Romantic love is often used both as the incentive for fat women to lose 
weight and as a means of pacifying or controlling them both during and 
after weight loss.  And while I think it's commendable that some men 
(and women) refuse to let cultural biases deter them from their romantic 
or sexual attractions to fat women, I am highly suspicious of the idea 
of romantic love as the solution to all of a fat woman's problems - 
especially when we live in a culture where male/female power relations 
are what they are.  I have to say that I did find this problematic in 
the movie _Zuckerbaby/Sugarbaby_ (which I described in the post that 
started this discussion).  I'm glad that Saegebrecht gets her man and 
improves her self-image along the way, but I got very uneasy at certain 
highly symbolic scenes - for example, when she buys her first pair of 
high heels.  I suspect this uneasiness is about the questionable 
validity of abandoning size stereotypes only to happily assume sex 
stereotypes.
 
Well, that's certainly enough for an initial post on the subject.  I'm 
interested in what folks think about this.  By the way, I left out the 
middle stanza of Christine Donald's poem in my sig. file originally - 
here it is:

	No recanting then,
	No mealy-mouthed forgiveness.
	Our vengeance is curved,
	Compact and keen.

 
- Naomi (nsv@msen.com)