From: nyarko@ee.ualberta.ca (David Nyarko)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia,alt.athiesm,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Faith in the Word (was: Drinking & christian living)
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:52:05 GMT
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada

timk@world.std.com (Tim King) writes:

>spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston) writes:

>>nyarko@ee.ualberta.ca (David Nyarko) wrote:
>>> 
>>> For example if I do not know that the Word says by the stripes of Jesus I
>>> was healed ? i would always pray that if it be the will of God, I should
>>> be healed. Instead of being able to stand on the Word of God and say 
>>> "Father your Word says by the stripes of your Son Jesus Christ I have been
>>> healed and as you watch over your Word to perform it, by faith I beleive
>>> and have my healing" or words to that effect.

My responses below would I hope shed more light on the words I wrote above.

>>I was once taught that if we believe in faith that we are healed then we 
>>know by faith that the healing has taken place. I remember putting this 
>>into practice now, and I prayed something similar to what you wrote above
>>over a severe injury to my hand. I firmly believed that God had healed 
>>me, but my hand hurt as much as ever it had.

>[ . . . ]

>>Others might say that I did not have enough faith for the healing, but 
>>even if they are right I would point out that to have more faith then 
>>I had it would have to be supernaturally given.


>I intend to show that Stephen's experience did not show a lack of
>faith.  Nor did it show failure of God to follow through on His promise.

>First of all, "by His stripes we are healed," a quote from Isaiah 53,
>refers to spiritual healing, not physical healing.  Read the phrase
>in the context of Isaiah 53, and this will become clear.  This does not

I have read Isaiah 53 and do not see how it refers to spiritual healing
and not physical. What exactly is the spiritual healing you are referring
to. From verse 1 I read about physical events, ....But in our eyes there
was no attractiveness at all, nothing to make us want him (v2). v5...he
was wounded and bruised (both physical events) .... I might be wrong
it would be good to offer a bit more explanation.


>discount the validity of miraculous physical healings, mind you.  For
>example, physical healings were a large part of Jesus's ministry on earth
>and the apostles' afterward.  However, this is not the emphasis of
>the quote from Isaiah 53.

>In this discussion, it's important to keep in mind what faith is.
>For a dissertation on faith, read Hebrews 11... the *** whole *** chapter!
>If one only reads the first verse, he'll be easily mislead.  In the
>examples given, you will see that faith is based upon the belief that
>God is.  I don't have my bible with me (I'm at work) so I can't check right
>now for myself, but don't some of these examples include suffering?
>In other words, aren't there some who by faith underwent great distress
>for the Lord.

Regarding the distress mentiond in the chapter on faith (Heb 11), I see
it as a result of the persecution which results from trusting in Jesus..
The persecutions will come (1 Thess 1:4, Mark 10: 29,30). I believe
that the message some preach of a rosy life does not support what the 
bible says. In the same vein, I don't call sickness the persecution.
Verses 37-38 of Heb. 11 we see the sickness mentioned being a result
of the conditions they had to endure. If we don't or are not in a
position to take care of ourselves well, we do get sick even though
it is not as a result of any persecution for the sake of the gospel.


>This is how Job's faith is reconciled with his suffering.  His faith was
>toward God.  He knew that God was real and that God was omnipotent.  That
>is why he could undergo the treatment he did at the hand of Satan without
>faltering.  This is _ real _ faith!

Real faith should be always toward God as you have said, otherwise we
cannot please him.

>>Some are healed and some are not, and if I believe there is a promise
>>of God which is not being fulfilled then it is my opinion that we should 
>>spend less time * claiming * the promises and more time * pleading * 
>>the promises.

>One which was not was Paul himself.  He said he had an affliction, which
>he asked the Lord to remove three times.  Are we to say then that Paul
>didn't have faith?  In my opinion, at least, such a statement shows
>incredible ignorance and presumption.  If Paul had no faith, how could
>He believe a God who said, "My grace is sufficient for you."?

Regarding Paul's thorn in the flesh which some say it was a sickness and
others not). However we know that he prayed 3 times which tells me that 
whatever it was, he would not have prayed if he knew it was not God's
provision for him. We note that God DID ANSWER as to why this thorn
would be with him (2 Corinth 12: 7-10). In James 5:14-16, we see
physical sickness being talked about a unique thing here is that
this physical healing mentioned here also mentions the forgiveness
of sins too.
Sorry that sometimes my thoughts don't seem to run coherently. I
have to get this off fast that's why. The story of Achan's sin
is one that explains why something could prevent God's desire
from being manifest because God is just. Achan's sin (Joshua 7)
by taking that accursed thing prevented Israel from defeating
their enemies (Josh. 7: 13). Could you please explain the
difference between "claiming" and "pleading" the promises ?
I have heard a number of people say a lot of things regarding
faith especially regarding healing. I believe that if I have
a sickness and someone askes me, I will say for example I
have this swelling but I'm believing God for my healing, according
to his word, or join me in praying for it (James 5: 14-16). Or
God'd word says I have been healed so I believe it will be 
manifest now or soon or whenever or words to that effect.
I stand corrected, but I believe not all the healings of
Jesus Christ were instantaneous for example the case of the
10 lepers in Luke 17:12-19. The lepers were healed as they
were going. 
But healing right now or not, we still have to fight the good fight
the new testament mentions.
That's the fight of Faith (1 Tim 6: 12) and always rely on the
Holy Spirit's guidance. I have a bit on this in another post on
this issue.

		All the best,
		David

>All the best,
>  Stephen.



>-- 
>Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
>(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
>who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
>spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston

>References and cross-references are available upon request.

>-Tim
>-- 
>Tim King                  |-_      |
>Dedham, MA                |  -|    |    Make mine music!
>timk@world.std.com       <>   |   <>
>(617) 890-2929 x137          <>
-- 
-------- David Nyarko   |  Internet: nyarko@bode.ee.ualberta.ca -----
"A result of GOD's love for mankind was the giving of his only Son
Jesus Christ so that anyone who believes in his Son would instead of
perishing as GOD's justice demands, rather have eternal life."
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