HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Political Correctness in the Dark Ages
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:14:34 GMT

jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

(Lots of interesting stuff deleted.)
>One thing I do find baffling is the utter absence of blacks and Chinese
>from English fiction in the 18th and 19th centuries.

>--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,

Unfortunately, Thackeray wrote a novel (I forget which one), in which
he wishes to show the staff of a girl's school as kissing ass
to rich students. He does this by having a Black,
Jewish young woman enrolled at this school (whose father made his
money in the Caribbean); and says that teachers tell her she's
beautiful and treat her like the social equal of the other girls!
In other words (he's saying) (sarcasm on) the administration is
so blinded by cold cash they'll even treat a Black, Jewish woman
like she's a full-scale human (sarcasm off). 

(Now, if a novelist as imperceptive to social issues as Thackeray
were writing that scene today, don't you think he'd have the
girl be fat instead...Imagine -- telling a size 20 she's lovely!)

(insert sarcasm as indicated)

Lenore Levine
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: Which Shakespeare works to buy?
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date:  5 Jan 93 16:24:16 GMT

ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung) writes:


>How about Wells+Taylor (Oxford)?  Is this controversial?


   Apparently not.  Several weeks ago I asked in this newsgroup for
opinions on this edition and got not a single followup.  I guess my
query must have been drowned out by such intensive literary
controversies as homosexual genetics, snobbish computerized cliques, and
politically correct methods of chiding automata. 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:22:44 GMT

RABWorm writes:

>At the present time child molestation is a major taboo. I imagine that this
>was not always so. It is likely that child molestation by priests is 
>encouraged by the Roman Catholic prescription of celibacy and masculinity 
 ^^^^^^^^^^
		>for their clergy.


A consequence of? or, required?

Keith
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 02:44:48 GMT

Mike Godwin writes

[I had written:]

>>But it
>>does seem rational to pay more attention to what people say about
>>activities at which they excel than about activities they habitually
>>bungle.
>
>True, but this doesn't say much about Paul Johnson's INTELLECTUALS.

I'm in the awkward position of having entered a discussion of a book I
haven't read and am not likely to read, because I was interested in the
issues being discussed.

I was under the impression Johnson's thesis was something like "these
guys had a big effect on what people think is right and wrong, but as
demonstrated by the way they lived themselves they didn't know the
first thing about how to live".  My point was that even though such an
argument is not logically demonstrative it's worth taking into account.
If you say that's irrelevant to the book I'll take your word for it.
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we
disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."  (Montaigne)
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Date: 11 Jan 93 00:32:38 GMT
Organization: UT Art History
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1

In article <8JAN93.19452376@vax.clarku.edu> , hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
writes:
>Well, we did not have a roaring fire on the evening of our First Annual
>McGonagall Night, but we did have haggis, roast beast, clapshot and
                                                                         
             ^^^^^^^^
>sprouts, accompanied by a robust Cabernet Sauvignon; followed by oatcakes
>and a rather assertive Stilton.  There were two desserts [...]

Wot the blithering hell is "clapshot"? Sounds thoroughly unhealthy. And
it doesn't appear in my OED.
--

"They like sitting around reading all the books there are. And then they 
love arguing about them. Some of those arguments go on for millenium 
after millenium. It just seems to keep them young, for some reason, 
arguing about books." -- Julian Barnes          

Joann Zimmerman (jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
From: ah@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: ah, sweet serendipity of life
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:45:40 GMT
Organization: Dunathad

Ron Hogan wrote:

	ah, sweet serindipity of life

after I'd asked him not to call me sweet serendipity in public.

then went on to say

	The flight was a drag, except for reading Martin Amis'
	_The_Rachel_Papers_ in its entirety-- fabulous book from one of the
	best writers of his generation, not to be too generalizing ;)

There's nowt like a Martin Amis when you need cheering up.


ah

-- 
Alan Hunter
Johnson Hunter Ltd
Isle of Islay, Scotland
A.Hunter@dunaad.co.uk          fax: +44-496-2336         voice: +44-496-2286
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Forever War and Starship Troopers
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:36:47 GMT

 How did this subject cross over to here from rec.arts.sf.written?
 
 And how soon can we send it back there? 
 
 One group of Heinlein flames is quite enough, thank you.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: davidf@golem.waterloo.on.ca (David J. Fiander)
Subject: Re: Meaning shifts (was Re: academic settings)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:00:16 GMT
Distribution: rec

>Any idea when the usage of the word "fag" (in the Tom Brown/Harry Flashman
>sense) and the practice of fagging in public schools finally died out? During
>Dr Arnold's time or later?

Well, fagging never occurred at the University of Waterloo (at
least not to my knowlege), but residents of the Co-operative
Residences are still required to perform 3 hours of fags
(chores) a week.  They even have a Fag Master.

What's really frightening is the fact that, since Fag Master is
an important position of responsibility, it is something that
most Fag Masters put on their resumes (under a different title,
one would assume).

- David
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 8 Jan 93 04:25:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan8.042508.1361
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1993Jan7.224717.27194@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes crap:
>Your position is certainly consistent, but it betrays a
>streak of smug Social Darwinism, or perhaps merely a
>foolish misunderstanding of human nature.

No, it just means he's a clueless "I've got mine" white Protestant het boy
for whom all forms of marginalization are incomprehensible abstractions;
something to argue idly about while wasting time on the net.  It's nauseating.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 9 Jan 1993 22:59:15 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu


 Mike Morris answers a question posed by Mike Godwin
    
    >> Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's 
    >> Jewish?  What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming 
    >> fundie image"?
      
    > I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to
    > do this, yes.

Morris indeed believes that it should be "allowed" that
employees be firable for Jewishness, since Morris believes that
employees should be firable for *any* reason.  Thus, allowing the
firing of Jews moves us a little bit closer to his ideal.

Now for why this bugs me so much:

My *preferred* policy would be that employees not be firable
for any reason unrelated to their job performance. That,
clearly, is nondiscriminatory, and barring CO2 type measures
corresponds to reality most places.

Another clearly nondiscriminatory policy, preferred by Morris, is that
the employee be firable for any reason, or no reason.

What bugs me is that while Morris is not in favor of discrimination,
he very readily *accepts* it if it shaves things in favor of his
philosophy.  Morris will permit massive discrimnation if it
allows just a little more conformance with a purely theoretical
advantage.  

The problem, Morris, is that discrimnation is *real*, whereas
the advantages of having total employer discretion in firing
(which CO2 doesn't come close to giving them, anyway) are
somewhere between "unclear" and "nonexistent".

Mike M., explain why you see this as an intelligent
trade-off.

Steve









Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lkahn@mitre.org (Larry Kahn)
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:31:52 GMT

Keith Morgan writes, regarding the mishearing of song lyrics:

>The second one is prison, babe, and the sheriff's on my tail 
>And if he catches up with me I'll spend my life in jail 
> Or? 
>The first one's named sweet Ann Marie and she's my heart's delight 
>The second one is prison bait and the sheriff's on my tail 

Back in high school we had a guy convinced that

I'm Your Venus           (Shocking Blue, I think)

was I'm Your Penis and he couldn't figure out how they were playing that 
on the radio.

                

   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   | Larry Kahn                       |                                  |
   | The MITRE Corporation            |   BE REASONABLE. DO IT MY WAY.   |
   | lkahn@mitre.org                  |                                  |
   |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
   |  These opinions may not coincide with my employer's (not that they  |
   |  pay any attention to an insignificant lackey like me, anyhow).     |
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bab2@nestor.cc.bellcore.com (barter,elizabeth)
Subject: Question - what's the word for ...
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 18:47:05 GMT
Followup-To: poster

I'm posting this to these three newsgroups because they seem
the most logical places  - to me :-)   I sure hope someone out
out there knows the answer to this.

I'm looking for the word that means/describes kids substituting
some words for others.  Not because they have hearing or speech 
problems, but because the word is too big for them to get their 
mouths around it.  The Pledge of Allegiance is often used as an
example.   Another one is when a relative said said his name was 
"William IwishIwas Kelly" instead of William Aloysius Kelly.

Anyway, my sister is a reference librarian and she got asked this
question.  There's definitely a word for it, but because nobody could
remember it, they couldn't look it up.  It's been driving her, the 
entire library staff - and the rest of us - crazy ever since.

Thanks

Beth


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Subject: Re: Child molestation & celibacy (was: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:57:36 GMT
Organization: Austerlitz, Gershovitz, and Carmichael

lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:

>Jeff Davis writes

>>Francis Muir writes:

>>>I thought I had worded this with some care. I am saying that enforced  
>>>celibacy and and all-male clergy encourages child molestation. I am not 
>>>saying that the Church directly encourages the practise.

>>However you word it, it's still boloney.
>
>Care to explain why it's boloney (sic)?

Does an ideal of Chastity encourage licentiousness? Then the Church should
wake up, I guess. [Incidentally, "boloney" is a correct spelling]

>Would you care to speculate as to why so many child abusers, 
>particularly of boys, wind up being Catholic priests?  
>True, you find child sexual abusers in all professions
>and in all classes, but the most notorious cases recently have been
>by priests or ex-priests.
>
I'm sorry for the practice and the cover-up by the Church. It's dismaying.
But, for the life of me, I can't fathom how a vow of Chastity promotes
such a practice. One can believe in a pneumatic idea of sex, that if you
squish sexuality down here, it will defy you and bulge out there, so to 
speak. I don't, and I don't think that the recent out cropping of
child abuse cases among the clergy is proof of such a proposition. I suspect
that the demands of chastity in an age where belief is ridiculed may
produce more stress than the clergy can normally bear up under. Should the
Church bow to the Age? No, although I think the practice [of celibacy] should 
never have been begun and should be abandoned, although not for the reasons
that are normally cited.

This is one of "those issues", non-book, that can be better taken up via
e-mail. Sorry that I made my original dismissal in the open forum.
-- 
Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu> 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:30:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.210450.4366@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>Anyway, my point was: why should we be subject to celebrating mediocrities
>when there are so many first-rate writers and poets who are more deserving
>of wider readership if only they were decently translated?

McGonagall, mediocre?  How *dare* you? There wasn't a mediocre bone in the 
man's body!  He was *bad.*  AMAZINGLY bad.  WONDROUSLY bad.  See Wyndham
Lewis' _The Stuffed Owl_ to learn the difference between merely bad verse
and BAAAAD verse.

And again, check out the Hoffnung version of the Tay Whale.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Angela Carter, _Wise Children_, also "Jeeves and Wooster"
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:38:05 GMT

	One of the small but, it turns out, interesting gifts I got my s.o.
for Christmas is Angela Carter's last book, _Wise Children_, which came with
a card saying I would read it aloud to her--my s.o., that is, not A.C., who
probably doesn't enjoy my reading all that much anyway as (a) I have an 
American accent and (b) she is dead.

	At any rate--

	Though I am only thirty pages or so into it, I'd like to recommend
the book as equal to any I've read this year, including _All the Pretty
Horses_, which until now was pretty much all by itself.

	Extremely funny, vulgar, Shakespearean, English, etc.; the kind of
book that makes reviewers break out in inappropriate vocabulary, due to
a kind of semantic contact high.

	Also, on an almost unrelated note:  the Guthrie/Fry "Jeeves and
Wooster" series on PBS is half done (2 out of 4), and I for one love it--
also, would be interested to hear how other r.a.b.ble Wodehouse fanciers
respond.

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 13:52:37 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

>  However, there has been LOTS of bashing on the basis of religion,
>  on the basis of sex, on the basis of race, on the basis of ethnic origin, on  
>  the basis of age, and, yes, on the basis of sexual orientation.  Since these  
>  abuses still happen, I guess we need to state in our laws that we really DO  
>  MEAN that you shouldn't discriminate and get away with it legally.
>
>Umm, again, precision is lacking. For one thing, I don't see the slightest
>thing wrong with discrimination on the basis of religion. I dislike
>religious fundamentalists particularly. I also claim that this is a very
>reasoned and reasonable dislike. And of course it all depends
>on what one means (precisely) by ``discrimination''. I don't advocate
>that religious fundamentalists should be deprived of, say, their
>right to life. But I also don't think the laws ought to require me
>to hire one (to associate with one against my better judgment). And
>I'll be damned if the laws are ever going to require me not speak ill
>of them.

Perhaps that's the crux of the problem.  I think I ought to hire the best  
people for the job.  As much as I dislike the beliefs of religious  
fundamentalists, I don't think I should be permitted to refuse to hire them  
because of their religious beliefs.  Or fire them if I learn they are
fundies after I hire them.  That's ridiculous.  It leads towards a society  
which refuses to protect co-existence and differing opinions.   The point of  
the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of the minorities against the  
tyranny of the majority.

*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak *
*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I *
*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade *
* unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist... *
*Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
*  Rev. Martin Niemoeller     [Why to March on Washington in April]  *
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 07:10:35 GMT

In article <1ik3qbINNe4n@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
}In article <C0J5yp.Du@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu  
}(michael bruce mcdonald) writes:
}> In article <1ijesiINNiav@phakt.usc.edu>, rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron  
}Hogan) writes:
}> >Tim Starr writes:
}> >in response to Ron H>
}> >>}It's like the Albert Goldman school of intellectual history--  
}not so much
}> >>}sunlight being the best disnfectant as dragging historical  
}figures through
}> >>}the mud.
}> >
}> >>They dragged themselves through the mud.  Johnson just exposed  
}it.
}> >
}> >That, of course, hinges on whether or not we agree on the nature  
}of 'mud'.
}> 
}> 
}> "The progress toward totalitarianism arose, and continues to arise,  
}because of
}> society's refusal to be shit!"   --Kathy Acker, "left" postmodern  
}writer of
}>                                                 unusual fiction
}> 
}> 
}> "The intellectuals Johnson degrades are great precisely because  
}they were
}> willing to explore the mud."     --mbm
}
}But Johnson wasn't criticizing them for "exploring the mud."  He
}condemned many of them for treating the people around them
}like crap (the section on Brecht made my skin crawl).  
}
}Were Brecht, Hellman et al exploring the mud when the said
}things like "If Stalin held purges, then he must have had
}a good reason for it."  (Sounds a lot like the right wing
}fanatics of today, who refuse to condemn right wing dictatorships,
}no matter how awful they act.)

Like those Castro-lovers who say, in response to the point that Cuba puts
PWAs in quarantine, "At least Cuba's doing something about AIDS!"

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Abulafia
Date: 5 Jan 1993 00:30:18 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mary Loveless writes:

	I no longer have _Lucia in London_, or _The Worshipful Lucia_.  
	I am convinced that in one of these, someone has a spirit guide 
	named Abulafia.  Perhaps a more concentrated effort to replace 
	the missing volumes?

Close, but no cigar. You're thinking of Daisy Quantock's control, ABFOU.
You know, the one who is almost always unintelligible (Arabic?) but who
occasionally blurts out

	"Lucia is a snob."

*LUCIA IN LONDON*.

							RABworm					

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mitchell@cs.uchicago.edu (Mitchell Marks)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Reply-To: mitchell@cs.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:15:39 GMT

>>>>> "MG" == Mike Godwin <mnemonic@eff.org> writes:

  MG> In article <1993Jan9.1479.24625@channel1> "john lovett"
  MG> <john.lovett@channel1.com> writes:

  JL> Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? [Besides SMALL
  JL> WORLD] Any genre will do.  I'll post the list.

  MG> This seems as good a time as any to post the obligatory monthly
  MG> recommendation of A.S. Byatt's POSSESSION.

Her earlier novels THE GAME and STILL LIFE both have academic settings
in part (resp. Oxford and Cambridge).  And THE VIRGIN IN THE GARDEN is
almost entirely set in and around a boarding school, if you feel like
counting that.
--
Mitch Marks    mitchell@cs.uchicago.edu
"Oh God comma I abhor self-consciousness" --John Barth
From: au500@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Zinn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Time and Again trivia question
Date: 11 Jan 1993 14:34:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: au500@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Zinn)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


To what 19th-century novelist does the main character of _Time and
Again_ by Jack Finney refer? (Hint: She was called by Hawthorne
[one of those] "damn scribbling women" and was a friend of H.B. Stowe.)

BTW, the decade Si traveled back to was the 1880s, not the 1890s.

Linda
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 9 JAN 93 20:03:31 GMT

I wrote:

>>You seem to think the term "lesbian" is an insult.  It's not. 

Steve Dyer wrote:

>Well, right.  What do you think MY point was in that thread?  Sheesh. 

In that thread, you were arguing that the word shouldn't be used as if it
were an insult.  Now you're claiming that it *has* to be an insult, since
lesbians are "marginalized".  Which is it?

>You seem to think the term "het boy" is an insult.  It's not. 
>And it can't be, because of what it means to be a white het boy 
>in our society.  Its only power comes from irony. 

No, its power comes from hate and scorn, just like any other insult.

>>Are you, *in principle*, against attacking people based on their race, 
>>religion, and sexuality, or only against attacking *marginalized* people 
>>in that manner? 

>You can save your "take the pledge of allegiance" argument. 

Which argument is that?

>Institutionalized, pervasive oppression is one-way: from the powerful to the
>marginalized, and that's what I'm concerned with.  

I figured as much.  

Don't be surprised if your attitude turns off a lot of members of the
"oppressor class" who might otherwise agree with you.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu