From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:25:18 GMT

Knowing full well that I am In Melindas kill file, and that past
interactions between us have been rather heated, I need to write this
anyway.

In article <1992Dec22.172912.2724@tc.cornell.edu>, shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
> In article <1h7hkdINNeuu@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >In article <1992Dec22.144024.28676@tc.cornell.edu> 
> >shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
> >> While I certainly disagree with Dworkin, that won't stop me
> >> from disagreeing with you about her.  Her suggestion that
> >> true consensuality can't exist between two people where
> >> there is a gross power imbalance is a valid one. 
> 
> >If I thought that were her point, I would of course agree 
> >with her.
 
> And how do you think she arrived at her conclusions?  Andrea
> Dworkin writes that all heterosexual sex is rape because ...
> Because what?  What are the arguments she presents (without
> an ad hominem attack, if you please)?

I haven't read the material so cannot answer this part, but I'm leaving it
here for continuity.

> A thing I like about Andrea Dworkin is that she pisses off
> men so thoroughly.  Men (notably straight white men) are so
> rarely the object of complete dehumanization.  I don't think
> that turnabout is fair play, but I do feel that reading
> Dworkin could lead more men to the "Aha!" experience.  Mind
> you, all too many who do read Dworkin don't think about
> it beyond being simply outraged, but maybe some encouragement
> to consider why they're so angry at Andrea Dworkin could
> result in a better understanding of what it is to be a
> woman or minority in this culture, and how it might feel
> to live as the object of this kind of hate, day in and day
> out.  

this kind of bitterness upsets me.
Not because it affects me personally in any way, but because the empathic 
part of me, the part my ascii pals don't get to know until they become
real world pals, feels the pungent sting of these words on the pallette.

In the paragraph of yours above you say that it pleases you that Andrea
Dworkin pisses men off, and objectifys them in a dehumanising way.
You go on to rationalise that by saying that you think it will help
them get their heads straight about the way they treat women and make
changes accordingly.

There is something about this that doesn't ring true to me.
The way you end the paragraph is revealing I think.
It sure sounds like spite to me.

This way of being, bitter and spitefull, is a loosers game Melinda.
Regret isn't worth the time spent on it, but besides being worthless
bitterness is really the punishment one would like to inflict on the
trangressor, kept chained to ones side and applied to ones-self.

You may think that I am being mean in saying this, but despite our
political differences I wouldn't wish this state upon you.

Do you think that men who rape, and I mean the men who just don't 
give a fuck about the recipient of their violence, are affected one 
iota by the writing of Andrea Dworkin? If such a man was made aware of
her positions it would  not dehumanize him at all. Such a man might feel
empowered that he was the kind of person who had so thoroughly broken
this women down to such a vengefull bitter  reaction. For reaction it must
be, I cannot imagine a human being coming into this existence with 
such bitterness inate.

Andrea Dworkin is not getting even, she is validating the power-over 
relationship  that passes for *love* in our society.

I suppose that men who are socialy responsible enough to understand the
concept that *no means no*  might be moved to sadness by the display of
her rage, but such negative methodology does not lend itself well to
positive results.

It seems to perpetuate the cycle, it seems to 
give energy and strength to the negativity of the issue.

It seems to me that some clear thought about goals and how best to achieve
them is a lot better use of time than hanging onto the roll of hate-object
and squeezing bitter tears from the memory of past injustice.

I truly hope that this posting was just a flare set off by some triggering
mechanism, I truly hope that this is not indicative of a deeper more
persistent pain. 

LUX ./. owen

--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
	Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "
Newsgroups: soc.motss