From: eliot@lanmola.engr.washington.edu (eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: The Acura Vigor and Unfulfilled Expectations (was Re: Luxury Performance Cars)
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:54:19 GMT
Organization: clearer than blir

In article <37137@unix.SRI.COM> Mitch_Halpern@qm.sri.com (Mitch Halpern) writes:

I would like to answer to this post not with the intention of further bashing
the Vigor but rather to explain why I have criticised it the way I did.  As
always it is not my intent to offend owners, but simply to speak my mind...

>While most of the reviews in the trade mags and 
>consumer publications have praised the Vigor's handling, engineering, and 
>acceleration

A couple of nitpicks..  First of all, Honda's biggest fan, Consumer
Reports could not even bring themselves to say nice things about the
Vigor.  That in itself is somewhat shocking, considering the fact that
they frequently downplay Honda weaknesses.

Those publications that praise the Vigor's acceleration tested a 5
speed model.  I've visited Acura dealerships many many times and have
never seen a 5 speed Vigor.  I think that dilutes the praise somewhat.
I think that the Vigor w/ slush has perfectly adequate acceleration,
but it is nothing special compared to all the cheap rockets out there.

> there has also been a trend to ultimately overlook the 
>positive aspects of the automobile while dwelling on the fact that Honda 
>didn't break any new automotive ground with its new Acura.

I think that that is a diplomatic way of giving it a thumbs down.

>  Why shouldn't 
>any product be be judged on its own merits instead of what "it might have 
>been" (eg given a priori poor marks because it has an odd 5 cylinder 
>arrangement instead of the more usual 6). 

If you ask me, I'd tell you that that's because it's got almost
nothing going for it, except for the usual Honda quality control.  I
will elaborate on this point a little further down..

I think that the criticism for the 5 is justified, because Honda's own
balance shafted 4 and V6 are better engines than the 5.  The 5 is not
as sweet as their 4 let alone the V6, and by being mounted lengthways,
it carries a hefty penalty in interior room.  The 110 inch wheelbase
and the 2 inches of rear legroom is strong indication that there's a
serious lack of integrity in its design.  i.e. its body, being derived
from the Accord, was never intended to house a longitudinal engine,
let alone a 5 cylinder one.  Its awkward, clumsy styling (at least to
my eyes anyway) is further testament to it.  These are not serious
problems per se.. They are simply manifestations of trying to build a
car given an impossible set of constraints from the marketing dept.

That is the trouble with these mid range models.. The company is not
willing to do a brand new body from scratch like they do with the
Legend.  At least at Toyota they maintain the same engine layout and
avoid creating a mutated mess like the Vigor.

> In addition, just as Acura 
>apparently benefitted from the "new kid on the block syndrome" during its 
>early years of operation when it consistently topped various customer 
>satisfaction surveys, Lexus and Infiniti are apparently the new darlings 
>of the automotive world that cannot do anything wrong.  

I'd like to assure you that my comments have absolutely nothing to do
with JD Power & co.  JD Power is by no means the final word on cars.
Neither are my comments.  It is up to the intelligent reader to decide
which criteria is important for him or her, given all the different
angles of view.

>I'm certainly not 
>knocking these products, but it is interesting to note that in a 
>comparison road test in Car and Driver severalmonths ago that looked at 
>the Vigor and Lexus ES300 (amongst other vehicles) the ES300 was deemed 
>the "winner" even though the Vigor was the "points" winner (barely) in the 
>scoring.

I have not driven the ES300, but have reason to believe that Toyota is
trying very hard to make it the junior LS400.  Which is respectable.
Toyota, with its Lexus line of cars are making uncompromising luxury
cars.  Soft suspension, tons of gadgets, super stereo, powerful air
conditioning, fanatical levels of driver isolation from noise and the
outside world.  These are cars that are single mindedly built for the
city with the 24 hour traffic jam.  They are very clear in their
design that they are not trying to build a sports sedan, though their
ad agency might get a little out of line.  But one drive or one ride
in a Lexus and you know instantly what the car's all about.  The
harshest thing I can say about them is that they are soulless, but
that is simply because I like cars that excite me.  The Lexii are
simply not for me.

As for C&D comparison tests, I think that most of it is full of
nonsense anyway because they don't know or care about a car's design
priorities.  Just because both car A and car B have 4 doors and are
priced the same does not mean that they are both apples.  There is so
much subtlety beneath the numerical specifications.   Lumping
everything into numerical scores is sheer stupidity IMO.

As for Infiniti, the Q45 and the G20 are designed from the start to be
sporty.  (Building a sporty car is easier than building a luxury car,
thus I think Nissan saw that it could not do a Lexus and decided to go
the sporty route).  The G20 is a japanese Peugeot 405.  One spirited
drive in it will bring a big grin to your face, even if you got dusted
by a RX7.  Never mind, it was fun trying anyway..  The G20 has not doubt
about what it is all about.

We come now to Honda.  Given their long reign at the top of
motorsports there is an inevitable need to capitalize on it for their
road cars.  Thus we see the Acura line of cars being marketed with
sportiness painted all over them.  I therefore feel that it is fair
game to judge them as sports sedans, which is where the trouble
starts.  Honda engines seldom disappoint.  Objectively I'd even go as
far as saying that Honda's first try at a 5 cylinder is more
successful than most of the Audi 5s, despite being around for 20 odd
years.  The Vigor's automatic transmission is excellent in its responses.
Allied to the 5's willingness to spin, we have a responsive package in
the powertrain department.. "Sporty" if you will, even with a slush.

Where the whole building comes tumbling down is in the steering and
chassis department.  This is the area where Honda has no competition
experience in, and where the marketing committees take over.  Like
I've said, the Vigor's suspension is designed to impress on a 15
minute test drive, where you presumably rip around the odd freeway
ramp and the street corner.  You'll find that the Vigor has very good
structural rigidity ("solidness", if you will) and that it indeed has
stiff springs that offer good initial resistance to roll.  However,
this initial good impression can be quite easily shattered if you
attempt fast transient manouvers.. the "S" bends.  It is quite uncanny
how quickly it falls apart given the right moves.  The fault, as I've
said too many times already, is in its lack of rebound damping.
Highway undulations taken at high speed will soon have the car
pitching up and down uncomfortably until the driver decides to slow
down.  I consider its damping weakness to be a serious flaw; not just
as a sports sedan, but simply as a car.  You can find cars costing a
third of the Vigor that has better damping.  Fortunately, there are
many independent outfits selling dampers that are ready to capitalize
on Honda's biggest boo-boo, so there's solace for the serious Honda
freak.

As for the steering, it is somewhat good news that Honda is no longer
offering numb, one finger operated units.  Those in the Legend and
Integra GSR have nice weight to them.  Nervousness at high speed has
been reduced greatly.  Unfortunately the Vigor has been deprived of
this latest advance in Honda's steering technology.  The Vigor still
has awful steering, at least as far as when I last drove it.  That it
is completely uncommunicative I can start to grudgingly accept, since
road cars are seldom driven to their limits.  That it is accurate is a
nice bonus.  But I cannot get over how it is featherlight at speed.
Given its precision, an involuntary muscle spasm in your hand will
have you in the ditch in a split second.  Most of us with driving
instincts will simply drive slower given the above situation and
increase our "margin of error".  Thus one is forced by bad steering to
drive at a lower speed than one would in a more competant car.  To the
argument that would probably arise of the form "but driving slower
would be safer", my reply would be that the decision to drive slower
should be made by the driver, not by the car.

So anyway, with the Vigor, you have a sporty marketing theme, a sporty
powertrain combination and abysmal steering and suspension.  What is
one to make of it?  The Vigor seems to have a pretty confused set of
priorities.  Like the first generation Legend (which I called
schizophrenic) the Vigor smacks of design by committee without a clear
leader or direction.  The car tries to be all things to all people and
ends up being nothing to nobody.  I can see the young Formula 1 Honda
stars doing their part and coming up with a good engine that they pass
along to their less celebrated colleagues in the chassis department
who are neither respected nor inspired.  There is nothing in the
Vigor's design that tells me that whatever group of people that
designed it had any other vision or purpose other than to bridge the
market gap between the Integra and the Legend.  It is purely a product
of marketing.  There is no dignity in its engineering.. which is why I
am so critical of it.


eliot
Newsgroups: rec.autos