From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: dive flags & boaters
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:51:25 GMT


In article <1992Apr14.201359.10760@meaddata.com>, davidm@meaddata.com (David Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.133646.6252@cattnts>, craig@cattnts (Craig Campbell) writes:
>|> In article <1992Apr3.112914.23343@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>|> >In article <2APR199213090362@zeus.tamu.edu> bdd0066@zeus.tamu.edu (Bryan, kick the tire and light the fire, Duke) writes:
>|> 
>|> Story of powerboat cruising by dive flag omitted...
>|> 
>|> >>  For me, that was just a little
>|> >>too close for comfort, but he should have never been there.  my flag
>|> >>was very plain to see.  so why didn't he stay away??
>|> 
>|> >Most likely he didn't have any idea what a dive flag meant. Quite a few
>|> >boaters don't. That doesn't make them idiots.
>|> 
>|> Not idiots, no....but if a automobile driver ran over a pedestrian at a
>|> cross walk, how much strength would you give the argument that the driver
>|> probably didn't know what the X meant.  Think about it.
>
>The dive flag is not a standard nautical flag.  Rules vary by state.  The
>most important issue is to make boaters aware of flag.....
In Texas (where my Aggie buddy Bryan had his fun), the diver down flag IS the
legal flag on inland waters.  I fly both, simply because I have both.  But how
many boaters out there know on which side they should leave a red bouy?  (Ans:
Red right returning, simple!)
>
>|> 
>|> >I can understand being frightened and angry after an experience like
>|> >that, but I must disagree with the "all boaters are idiots" attitude
>|> >shown in some articles in rec.scuba. The most flagrant was someone
>|> >else's, not yours. Since I don't want to attack any individual perhaps
>|> >it is best that I put my comments in a response without a specific
>|> >reference.
>|> 
>|> All boaters are not idiots.  (I am a boater and a scuba diver, so I can see
>|> both sides.)  However, operating a boat does require a certain specialized
>|> skill set, including how to read common (not all) nautical markers.  I would
>|> define a dive flag as a common nautical marker.  Is ignorance a valid excuse?
>|> 
>|> >Most boaters don't know about diving and divers, and this can produce
>|> >dangerous situations. As divers there really isn't much we can do to
>|> >change boaters. We have to learn to protect ourselves. It shouldn't
>|> >be that way, but it is.
>|> 
>|> How about some sort of information campagne (around cottage country) to
>|> inform boaters (at least the ones who can read) of the meaning of a dive
>|> flag?  (I know, who would pay for it.... :-( )
>
>Good idea!  Divers have to pay for it (IMHO) - I'm a diver and a boater.
>
>|> 
>|> >Attacking boaters is not the solution. It isn't courteous, it isn't
>|> >reasonable, and it won't help.
>|> 
>|> A public prosecution of a boater who ignored a dive flag and hit a diver
>|> probably would help (everyone except the hit diver...).  The publicity
>|> of a trial might do the trick.
>
>Hitting a swimmer is an issue.  A diver surfacing under a boat or in the
>path of a boat may be the diver's fault and not the boater's fault.  The
>dive flag is a flag of the diving industry and is not universally accepted.
The Alpha is an international flag, and is required in coastal US waters.  If
you were in, say Canada, and saw a road sign you didn't understand, would you
drive in that direction, only to learn how to spell "BLASTING" in French :-)
>
>|> 
>|> >Boaters are much more numerous than divers and the boating industry has
>|> >much more clout. If it comes to confrontation we'll lose. If we try to
>|> >push for really tough regulation of boats by yelling too loudly about
>|> >hazards to divers the result is more likely to be tough regulations on
>|> >diving.
Yes, but the auto industry was pretty strong, until people figured out that
cars could be safer.
>|> 
>|> The boating industry (comercial) know all about divers and dive flags 
>|> (along with a zillion other flag combinations).  The recreational industry
                  ^^^^^^^  closer to two zillion  :-)
>|> does not have the same clout.  Regulations don't mean anything.  The problem
>|> as I see it is ignorance, not malice.  Nobody, boater or otherwise WANTS
>|> to hit a diver!!
>
>The commercial flag for diving in coastal waters is the ALPHA flag and not the
>red divers flag (at least this is true for CA).
Agreed.
>
>|> 
>|> Net question:  "How can we (diving industry) inform the recreational boating
>|> 		industry about diving in a friendly and useful manner?"
>|> 		(How do we pay for it?)
>
>Signs at boat ramps.  Lobby states for laws or at least a mention in the safe
>boating books.  Give one page leaflets to boat dealers to include with new
>boats.  Mayber a nice little sticker for the dash that shows common 
>navigational markers along with the dive flag......

Unfortunately, this only works with people who want to.  And, as has been my
good fortune, most people do care (regardless of what I and others have
ranted).  On the other hand, the sign that was put up explaining the dive flags
and the law had been painted over with:

RULES ARE 4 WORK
FUCK RULES
FUCK WORK
FUCK YOU

Get the picture?
>
>Seems like PADI/NAUI/DAN and other diving organizations could sponser an
>effort to do this (and solicit funds from the diving community - and possibly
>even from boating manufacturers).
OK, what next.  All PADI/NAUI/SSI/NASDS/YMCA/etc write your organization and
start this lobby.  Let's do it from the net.  Tell them:

"I favor a joint dive industry/boating industry campaign to educate divers and
boaters on their safety responsibilities.  This should include lobbying state
legislatures for uniform dive flag protection laws."

In fact, as I sat here writing this, I created a new ID.  If you are a PADI
certified diver and not a PADI member, send me you name, certification level
(OW, AOW, RD or MSD) and certification date and I will forward that to PADI as
a petition.  Send it to diveflag@skndiv.dseg.ti.com.

Would someone from NAUI, YMCA, SSI and others handle those?
>
>|> 
>|> >Bill Mayne
>|> 
>|> 
>|> -- 
>|> Craig Campbell		|	These opinions are entirely the result of a 
>|> Systems Engineer	|	small butterfly crashing into the far side
>|> NCR Canada,		|	of the planet.  Chaos Rules.
>|> an AT&T Company		|	I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.
>
>-- 
>David James Miller                             Architecture&Systems Evolution
>Mead Data Central, B6F3                        (513) 865-7441
>PO Box 933                                     davidm@meaddata.com
>Dayton Ohio 45401
>
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     | I'd exercise my 2nd Ammendment to protect
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          | your First.  Would you do the same for me?