HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barrey@Novell.com (Barrey Jewall)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies? 
Organization: Novell, Inc.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:34:57 GMT


From barrey@Novell.com (Barrey Jewall)

In <Bt4op3.26q@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov 
(Mary Shafer) writes:


>Jane Fonda didn't do anything except talk.  She didn't reveal
>classified information, she didn't give away any secrets.  Treason is
>more than just talk.  Treason is a constructive act.  So is espionage.
>Even Nixon's Attorney General said so.

Didn't the gov't of N. Vietnam release some film footage showing 
her shooting at an F-4 or similar??

I recall seeing the still shot of her sitting in the gunner's chair 
on an anti-aircraft gun taken during her trip to Hanoi.

Of course, we didn't declare war on N. Vietnam, so treason might not
be the proper charge. Maybe espionage though...

>Not only wasn't she sentenced, she wasn't even tried (a highly
>necessary first step to sentencing, although it must be followed by a
>guilty verdict).  She wasn't even indicted.

This is true. Political pressure and climate can have a lot to do with
this sort of thing, however.

>Public disagreement with government policy is NOT treason.  Even loud
>repeated disagreement isn't.  Anyone who thinks it is is guilty of
>something much worse than disagreeing.

Quite true.


--
+ Barrey Jewall - Network  Admin.++  and yea, though I walk through the shadow 
+ barrey@novell.com	         ++ of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am
+ Novell, Inc.- San Jose, Calif. ++ the meanest sonofabitch in the valley...
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: Use of snipers
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:39:37 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Tony Buckland writes:
#Regarding the use of snipers in the current conflicts in the former
#Yugoslavia: is this the first time that sniping has formed such an
#important part of ongoing assaults and sieges?  I think of sniping
#as an auxiliary method, employing scarce experts, for keeping the
#opposition harassed and heads-down, but in this case it seems to vie
#with mortar fire as a primary method of inflicting casualties.
#Please, oh please, no political comments.


Your question probably arises as a result of conflicting definitions.

A military sniper is in fact a scarce, specially trained individual
employing specialized equipment for long-range precision shooting
(or something like that :)

To the media, a "sniper" is any individual with a rifle employing aimed
fire on his own, usually from a hidden location. It is likely that
most of the "snipers" in the fighting are just ordinary soldiers/
guardsmen/partisans fighting in this manner.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Subject: Re: Wow! SAS use magic ammo!
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:39:46 GMT


From th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)

I think that it's important to remember that the SAS, in common with
other special forces such as the Germans' GSG9 anti-terrorist squad
don't just use hand guns like those of you out there who don't
have a firearms licence which permits a fully automatic weapon. They
have access to *anything* they want - typically an MP5 (or derivative)
for 'house-clearing'. One shot stops aren't as crucial because they
are using machine guns with a large magazine capacity. This means
multi-hits that will be very disabling - even with a 'puny' +P+ FMJ. 
NB. in counter terrorism operations the SAS can use expanding
bullets if they need. Just as often they will want to hit someone who 
is hiding behind a car. That means using a standard
NATO round eg. British 9mm Radway 2Z (Yanks would call it a +P+ load).
Alternatively they would use a light machine gun (outdoors!) as
in recent counter-terror operations in Northern Ireland. The weapons of
choice there are either a belt-fed GPMG, the lighter magazine fed
revamped Bren gun, or SLR (FN-FAL clone). All are in 7.62 NATO. The opposing 
team of Irish terrorists are armed with Semtex, 12.7mm belt fed Russian 
machine guns and AK47s (equipment and training courtesy of Colonel Gadaffi 
of Libya) plus Armalites and M60s courtesy of NORAID.

Furthermore, the SAS operate in teams. All these 'How do I kill the
burglar if he enters my house?' posts in the guns newsgroups invariably 
assume that you're on your own, you weren't expecting trouble, and you're 
using a hand-gun of one sort or another.

As you're doubtless aware, SAS policy is to fire until the target drops.
It's called CQQ (Close Quarter Combat). Doubtless someone will protest that
they'll run out of ammo if they do this. Just remember:-

* They use machine guns, CS/stun grenades, night vision equipment etc.

* No spray and pray. 

* They work in teams - not alone.

* They practice more often than all us 'experts'. 

Everyone seems to be concentrating on the merits of the ammo used to the 
exclusion of everything else. I hope this post puts things into 
perspective.

-- 
*************************************************************************
*  Tom Oates  (Bristol Poly, England)    *   DISCLAIMER:-               *
*  JANET: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk    *   I speak only for myself.   *
*************************************************************************

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: black@akebono.math.ncsu.edu (Kelly Black)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium -- Hydrogen Bombs
Organization: College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:43:47 GMT


From black@akebono.math.ncsu.edu (Kelly Black)

In article <BtHxD2.C9K@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
|> 
|> Much of the energy of a thermonuclear explosive is generated by the 
|> fissioning of U238 under the intense bombardment of fast neutrons from 
|> the fusion core. However, your bomb design description is incorrect. 
|> Fusion ignition requires an implosion of the fusible material. A 
|> jacket of lithium deuteride surrounding a fission device will simply 
|> blow itself apart without igniting a fusion reaction. Usually the 
|> fission trigger is itself a plutonium implosion device, often with a 
|> tritium booster, and the method of shock compression of the fusion core 
|> is considerably more sophisticated than is commonly suspected. 
|> [details omitted] 


This brings up a question that I have had for a while.  
Once the jacket and core are compressed to critical
levels how do you make sure that the fission process
is initiated.  Surely they don't just squeeze the thing
and hope that the good Lord smiles on the whole endevor! (sp?)
What do they do to start the reaction (or did I already 
ask that :-)

kel





-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly Black / Center for Research in Scientific Computing /
Box 8205 / NC State Univ. / Raleigh NC 27695-8205
e-mail: black@crsc1.math.ncsu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The secluded mermaids hate European goods, which have increased male 
power. The tabooed 'male' animal, the dog (used in the chase), is an 
added danger because it can see the spirit world. Dogs walk purpose-
fully on their own, although they have nowhere to go, and they freq-
uently stare attentively into space.  - Unknown

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium -- Hydrogen Bombs
Organization: INEL EG&G Idaho
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:18:36 GMT


From dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)

In article <BtLCp0.5o6@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, black@akebono.math.ncsu.edu (Kelly Black) writes:
>  
> 
> This brings up a question that I have had for a while.  
> Once the jacket and core are compressed to critical
> levels how do you make sure that the fission process
> is initiated.  Surely they don't just squeeze the thing
> and hope that the good Lord smiles on the whole endevor! (sp?)
> What do they do to start the reaction (or did I already 
> ask that :-)
> 
> kel
>  -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kelly Black / Center for Research in Scientific Computing /
> Box 8205 / NC State Univ. / Raleigh NC 27695-8205
> e-mail: black@crsc1.math.ncsu.edu
> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 

For fusion, once the material has been compressed enough, it is so hot that
all of the electrons are gone and the nuclii start smashing into another. 
This occurs with enough force to cause them to fuse, releasing a portion of
the nuclii's binding energy, photons, neutrons, and neutrinos.  There are
some criteria used to determine when this will happen (pressure, density,
temperature, and time all come into play).

For fission, once you have enough material into a criticial shape, there are
enough neutrons from spontaneous fission of U-235/238 that they will start the
chain reaction.

Hope this helps.

Don Palmrose
"I'd rather not serve on a ship designed to sink...."





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and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams)
Subject: Re: A-12 tail numbers
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:40:58 GMT


From dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams)

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu writes:
 >A book I have states that the precursor to the SR-71 was actually desig-
 >nated A-11, not A-12. Does anyone have any info on this or should or I
 >assume it was just a typo in the book I have. 

No, that is not a typo.  There has been some contention over the years
about the origins of the "A-11" designation.  The best explanation I have
seen is found in the Lockheed "OXCART history" document, which describes
in detail quite a few things about about the A-12 program.

The explanation given is a very simple one...  The original version of the
Blackbird design WAS the A-11, but after a variety of scale model and wind 
tunnel tests enough changes were introduced to merit a new designation.
Hence it became the A-12.  

-{ DA }-
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: P90 Penetration
Date: 23 Aug 92 22:04:04 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <BtC4y8.64G@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

>The standard military armor will not reliably stop rifle projectiles
>such as 5.56mm and 7.62mm (NATO or M43). Supposedly during the invasion
>of the Falklands by the Argentinians, the latters' Marines wore armor
>with hard inserts capable of stopping 7.62mm NATO AP. This is heavy
>stuff though.

I saw this video tape that demonstrated a bulletproof vest capable of 
stopping a 7.62 mm NATO projectile. The salesman had someone shoot him
point blank with a M1A... braver man than I am. He debunked this common-
ly held idea that a bullet would knock someone down even if they were 
using a bulletproof vest... if this were true then the person firing 
the rifle would also be knocked over backwards.

He also demo'ed another jacket that could stop a .44 Magnum slug.. he 
fired it at himself! Interesting way gripped the revolver too..a little
awkward.  Wonder if there is a correct, Massad Ayoob-esque stance/grip 
when wanting to shoot yourself.. Whew.. what a line of work.. Blew the 
T-shirt he was wearing to shreds, but as he said "Thats OK .. I get lots 
of these free at work.."...

Incidentally.. wasn't there someone who was catching bullets in his 
teeth at circuses?



-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Re: Nuclear War in the Middle East - Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Followup-To: sci.military,talk.politics.mideast
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:44:49 GMT


From ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

In article <BtGIuz.IA@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
> 
> From stricher@masig.fsu.edu
> In article <r8#ncrn.noring@netcom.com>, noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) 
>> I've been hearing rumors (the lowest form of information) that during the
>> breakup of the Soviet Union, some of the Soviet tactical nuclear weapons were
>> acquired surreptitiously by one or more Islamic countries, such as Iran, as
>> well as some trained personnel to maintain and deploy these weapons.  In
>> addition, I also heard (again just a rumor) that Israel believes that nuclear
>> war between them and the Islamic country which acquired the weapons could
>> occur in the near future.  Supposedly, Israel has about 100 nuclear weapons
>> in their arsenal.
>>  
> As I understand the former Soviet mindset, all nukes where manned by
> *Russian* troops. This was to prevent the local republics from using
> them to bargin with...err, blackmail, Moscow. Further it was standard
> policy to include intelligence officers (GRU/KGB) in most (all?) 
> military units. I would imagine that this would be doubly true of
> nuclear-armed units.
> 
>From what I've read KGB personnell manned the strategic communications
elements of *every* Soviet armed forces unit.

> I know the KGB maintained their own military units - where these the 
> ones in charge of tactical nukes?
> 
I also read that the KGB provided security at *all* nuclear weapons
sites. However, I also saw an article form one of the wire services
concerning the statement of a KGB officer stationed in Azerbaijan.
He complained that over 1/2 the Azeris assigned to his command, which
was guarding a nuclear munitions depot, could not speak Russian!

> Anyway, my point is: the Soviets where always very careful keeping their
> nukes in reliable, dependable hands. I doubt very much any have gotten
> away from them. And if one did, I'm sure that they would go after it.
> 
Well, they could easily have been getting sloppy. It seems that the KGB
& other state security organs didn't really perform too well recently.
Taking into consideration that many conventionally armed depots have
been seized by the republics, I don't think it's too far-fetched to
entertain the idea that soem nuclear weapons may have been "liberated".

PHIL
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Sabots and Soboteurs
Date: 23 Aug 92 22:07:51 GMT
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department


From ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


>>"Sabot" is French for "shoe" -
>>supposedly "saboteurs" got their name from carrying instructions around
>>in their shoes.
> 
> While it's true 'sabot' is the French for shoe, saboteurs got their name
> from a famous Strike by railway workers in (I think) Belgium. Because the
> managment was holding out and using scab labour, the workers lifted the
> rails out of their mountings - also 'sabot' in French. Hence the term.
> Thus it was originally a civilian term which only came to be applied to
> military uses later.

The story I heard was that during WWII the workers would throw a shoe into
the machinery at industrial plants occupied by the Germans. Thus the words
'sabotage' & 'saboteurs'.

PHIL
p.s. Alternatively it could've been WWI, I suppose.
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: janm@Prag.docs.uu.se (Jan Mattsson)
Subject: Re: SAAB J35 story
Keywords: SAAB J35 draken, operators, history
Organization: UDAC, Uppsala, Sweden
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:06:26 GMT


From janm@Prag.docs.uu.se (Jan Mattsson)

moose@guppy.tds.kth.se ((]ke Nordin)) writes:


>Anyway, SAAB Draken (swedish for dragon) is the last dedicated fighter SAAB
>has built. It has got a story all it's own. 


>Hovewer, the legend tells that the concept was developed by a little group
>in their spare time. When more people at SAAB got used to the ideas, the
>project got recognized and SAAB decided to build a reduced size test plane.
>I believe that this plane made it's virgin flight in 1957, but i might
>as well be confused here, it may have flown earlier.

1956, I think.


>I don't remeber when the full-scale J35A Draken made it's virgin flight,
>But i think the first J35 Wing got their machines in the spring of 1961.

I believe it first flew in 1958.


>SAAB 37 Viggen has been operated together with SAAB J35 Draken in two 
>decades.
>The fighter version has got a weird jet engine, it must be the largest 
>single-engine fighter ever produced with it's 120 kN (12 000 kg) thrust.

I think the F-105 comes close.
--
Jan Mattsson, CS student, Uppsala University, Sweden
janm@bern.docs.uu.se or janm@minsk.docs.uu.se

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: boyd@prl.dec.com (Boyd Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Kevlar Body Armour vs. Kevlar Rounds
Date: 23 Aug 92 22:08:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - Paris Research Laboratory


From boyd@prl.dec.com (Boyd Roberts)

[I'm not sure that there'll be any reply to this.  I've noticed that
any talk about body armour does not last for long, nor does it
produce any useful info]

So my (possibly naive) question is how does Kevlar body armour stand up
to rounds that are either Kevlar or Kevlar tipped.  Well, I guess my
real question is that if I wanted to punch holes in Kevlar body armour
what's my best shot?  I guess an M-79 round wouldn't be a bad choice.


Boyd Roberts			boyd@prl.dec.com

``When the going gets wierd, the weird turn pro...''
Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: SAS use tungsten coated 9mm
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:40:22 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Robert Allen writes:
#wound ballistics people such as Dr. Martin Fackler are advising
#using low velocity, heavy, hollowpoints, such as the 147 grain
#JHP in 9mm.

And yet the best performance in 9mm is achieved with the 115 gr JHP 
at 1300+ ft/s, while the 147 gr has been a mediocre performer at best.
This is of course empirical data derived from actual shootings, rather
than Facklerite theories, which often fly in the face of what happens
in the real world.


#I don't believe in one shot stops.

Neither would I if I believed in Fackler :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Subject: Re: Osmium????? (Re: depleted uranium)
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:30:52 GMT


From th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)

I don't think that people would use Osmium in shells because (apart from
the high cost) it is rather poisonous in much the same way that Beryllium is.
A relative of mine was once accidentally poisoned by a small amount of Osmium
tetroxide. It made him very ill. But that's another story.
Mind you, a beryllium copper projectile is very hard indeed.

For those of you who aren't in the know, certain people have been 
taking an interest in a metal called Tantalum. Details are scarce but
I *think* it's being used experimentally for HEAT liners. Perhaps someone
else can confirm. 

-- 
*************************************************************************
*  Tom Oates  (Bristol Poly, England)    *   DISCLAIMER:-               *
*  JANET: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk    *   I speak only for myself.   *
*************************************************************************

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: cvetp034@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Mike Cancellier)
Subject: Re: vision for helicopter pilots
Organization: Cal Poly Pomona Geography Dept.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:48:41 GMT


From cvetp034@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Mike Cancellier)

In article <Bt4oJC.212@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, Dan <BXP5@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> 
> From Dan <BXP5@psuvm.psu.edu>
  Dan, 
    I'm not sure about any of the other services, but the Air Force allows
helicopter pilots to fly without 20-20.  My uncle flies MH-53Js at Hurlburt
Field and has worn glasses since high school.  More important are depth
perception and color vision.  However, you will probably need a waiver for less
than 20-20.  Also, it used to be you could volunteer for helos without having a
pilot slot.  Now you need to get a pilot slot and go to UPT (fixed wing) and in
this day and age, pilot slots are almost impossible to get, as I can attest to. 
About to the only way to get a slot is go to the Academy because to get one in
AFROTC or OTS you must god-like. 
-- 
Daemon Hobbs, cadet, AFROTC
CVETP034@CSUPomona.edu



Xref: sparky sci.military:8852 soc.history:7893
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Newsgroups: sci.military,soc.history
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Sunday, 30 August, 1942
Date: 30 Aug 92 12:03:45 GMT
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Sunday, 30 August, 1942

Rommel launches a new attack against the Allied positions at El Alamein.
The main weight of his attack falls on the southern portion of the line,
near Alam el Halfa.  The attack is slowed by the thick and well-protected
belts of mines laid by the Allies, and is further complicated by the loss
of two of Rommel's most important commanders.  General Nehring, commander
of the Afrika Corps, is wounded in an air raid, and General von Bismarck,
commanding the 21st Panzer Division, is killed by a mortar shell.

German announces the annexation of the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg into the
Reich.

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker   Moderator, sci.military  military-request@att.att.com
(614) 860-5294      Send submissions to military@att.att.com

"Suggestions have even been made that new battleships should embody the
characteristics of both the battleship and the [carrier] by having some of
the heavy turrets countersunk and a flight deck added.  But there are some
objections to such a plan.  As long as Japan has a fleet of battleships
which we will have to encounter some day, superiority in continuous
gunfire must be assured." - Admiral William V. Pratt, USN, Retired.
Newsgroups: sci.military