HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Cycling and Environmentalism
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:03:22 GMT

John Forester seems to think that the Sierra Club is an organization
of environmentalists and uses the absurd positions taken by the
management of that organization to tar the environmental movement.
In fact, the Sierra Club is to environmentalism as the U.S. Department
of Transportation is to cycling advocacy -- totally wedged.

I suggest that the term "pseudo-environmentalist" would be more
descriptive of the official positions taken by the Sierra Club.
--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: elr@trintex.uucp (Ed Ravin)
Subject: NYC bicycle confiscation bill
Organization: Just another environmental cyclist
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:40:06 GMT

In article <75740@apple.apple.COM> ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House) writes:

>>Meanwhile, a bill has been introduced in City Council that would allow
>>the cops to confiscate a bicycle for any traffic offense.  It has 30
>>co-sponsers.

>This is really scary -- though to be honest I'd welcome such a law if they
>substituted "vehicle" for "bicycle" and enforced it fairly.

So would I, so would I.  That's one of the suggestions I'm going to submit
to the Council.  The bill has been introduced, and will get a public hearing
in the Transportation committee shortly.

>Ed: it's a lot to ask, but could you keep us posted on this one, or at least
>provide pointers to ways we can keep ourselves informed?  Such a law stinks
>in so many ways, but it's amazing what a majority can get away with.

It's not even a majority -- the NYC Council is a governmental body that used
to spend most of their time renaming streets.  Their transportation
committee has made lots of well-publicized moves over the safety of horses
in midtown traffic, but they have yet to address the safety of human beings
anywhere in the city.  We're hoping to use these hearings as an opportunity
to point out some of the problems.

For those of you who want an update or the text of the bill, I'd suggest
writing to Charles Millard, NY City Council, City Hall, NY 10007 and ask
for a copy.  I'll post stuff here as I get the chance.
-- 
Ed Ravin- elr@trintex.uucp| I like to think (and the sooner the better!)
  elr%trintex@uunet.uu.net| Of a cybernetic meadow where mammals and computers
           +1-914-993-4737| Live together in mutually programming harmony
my opinions, nobody else's| Like pure water touching clear sky.  -R. Brautigan
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:22:58 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

>DATE:   Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:18:56 PST
>FROM:   John - Forester <JForester@cup.portal.com>
>
>   In the discussion of fear by cyclists of traffic, Michael
>Smith talks up the religously environmentalist view that, when
>cycling, we should fear being hit by cars because that would
>"den[y] the existence of a significant social problem, namely our
>grotesque overreliance on cars[....]
>Smith's statement demonstrates the
>congruence that I have described between fear of traffic and
>environmentalism; environmentalists feel an exaggerated fear of
>car-bike collisions because they hate traffic to start with.

>   The words of both Smith and Cherry show an exaggerated fear of
>traffic; in Smith's case it is for a purpose as well as inadver-
>tently. 

One begins to detect here a touch of the old odium politicum behind all the 
measured talk about competence and technique. It is disappointing to 
conclude that one will now have to sift Forester's apparently factual 
posts to compensate for an ulterior agenda of anti-"environmentalist"  
axe-grinding.  

Transportation arrangements that kill 40 some odd thousand people in the 
US per year just manifestly don't make sense. I regard this as a policy 
judgement, not a "religious" one. If Forester wishes to argue this 
point, he should do so avowedly, as I have done. I dare say that most 
cyclists who ride in traffic regard it as the single riskiest thing they 
do, unless they also happen to be hang-gliders or snake-handlers. Since 
I am neither of these, I'm sure it's the riskiest single thing I do. (Do 
voluntarily, I mean; one doesn't have any choice about breathing the 
air.) To tell people, in effect, that their judgments, derived from 
their experience, are illusions caused by neurosis or incompetence, 
or result from brainwashing by sinister, molelike environmentalists 
masquerading as cyclists, is an uncandid form of car advocacy. Not to 
use a stronger word.  


--Michael Smith



Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: madine@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.)
Subject: Re: T junction quandrary
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:16:56 GMT
Summary: danger vs. harrasment.

elr@trintex.uucp (Ed Ravin) writes:
> For our correspondent at the T-intersection that started this thread, just
> do like a car -- drive in the middle of the lane, signal your intentions,
> move to whatever lane you need to complete your manuever, and shrug off
> the inevitable verbal harrasment that will be hurled your way by drivers
> unused to seeing cyclists assert themselves in traffic.

Rest assured that that is all that will happen.  You will receive
a great deal of audible and visible harrasment for this manuever.
Some motorists will even try to frighten you by unnecessarily locking 
their brakes in a mock attempt to make it look like there has been
a "close call".  But you won't be accidentally or intentionally
struck.  (At least not by the motor vehicle.  I have experience of
having physical objects hurled my way by "offended" motorists.
This has happened about 5 times over 20 years though.)

But be sure you are visible.  And note: "do like a car" means
making lane changes when clear--so you have to be checking
behind you before executing, signaling to move into the lane
and signaling to turn left.  So in New Jersey "do like a car"
means do what a motor vehicle operator should be doing, not what
NJ motorists actually do in practice. 

Offer a big smile. Offer "thumbs up" to motorists who make
a noisy point of how "danerous" your position is but then successfully
and safely get around you or come to a stop.  In my experience, if you
are cycle commuting and have to repeat the course every day at about
the same time, the motor commuters will quickly get used to you being
out there and frequency of harrasment incidents will decline quickly too. 

Gary E. Madine, Allentown, PA
gem@aloft.att.com

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Subject: Anti-cyclist police in Houston
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Summary: Contact Texas Bicycle Coaltion and L.A.W.!
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:54:02 GMT

In article <723964796.AA00000@urchin.fidonet.org> Howard.Gerber@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Howard Gerber) writes:

> in ...Houston, vehicular riding singles you out for victimization 
> by anti-cycling motorists and law enforcement officers.
>
> I was stopped and threatened by a Harris Country Constable Deputy.
> I have already gone through the whole chain of command from the mayor
> down to the head of the Police Training Academy in dealing with such 
> actions and now I have to do the same with the [mostly anti-cycling] 
> county government.

1) Contact the Texas Bicycle Coalition (tbc@igc.apc.org) and get some help.
I hear the guy who founded TBC served in the state legislature.

2) Contact the League of American Wheelmen's area representative for Texas.
LAW is at 410-539-3399 (Baltimore, MD) -- they can refer you.  LAW has
an email address but I'm not sure if it's law@igc.apc.org or law@aol.com.

3) Ask LAW if any Texas city has a "Police On Bicycles" program (i.e. 
bicycle mounted police in urban areas), like many US cities including 
Seattle and Las Vegas.  If so, contact the program's coordinator, tell 
them you're a law-abiding cyclist with a police problem, and get them 
involved.

You don't have to fight this kind of harassment alone.
-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:47:16 GMT


I think we must be aware of possible semantic differences in our
use of the word fear.  Personally, I wouldn't use the word "fear"
for what I feel when I ride in traffic (well, mostly - I do fear
certain traffic conditions, but that's something to admit and work
on, not something to defend...).  Apprehension, maybe.  Caution.
But to me, the word fear nearly always implies at least a small
amount of the traffic phobia that John is describing.

With "fear" defined in this way, any amount of fear is at least a
small impediment on cycling ability.  If it means that you do a
"pedestrian" left turn one time out of a hundred possible left
turns, then that fear has increased your danger that one time.  It
may be that you *feel* safer.  But that's the danger of feeling
fearful of traffic - it can warp what seems safe and what doesn't
seem safe in a way that doesn't reflect reality.

Besides the immediate danger of causing us to do unsafe things,
fear also has a long-term detrimental effect in that the longer we
maintain the bad habits out of fear, the more fear we will feel
for cycling correctly.  Unless we each constantly battle these
fears, recognize when it prevents us from doing what we should have
done to be safe - at an physical level, not neccesarily to feel
safe - we can become comfortable and possibly even righteous in
our fears.

In addition, cycling fearfully can cause the automobile drivers we
share the road with to lose respect for us.  Yet it is only with
the respect of these drivers that we can properly share the road.

Human beings have a very distorted and often incorrect view of
probabilities at an emotional level.  Fear while cycling is part
of this distortion, and serves only a self-perpetuating cycle.
The key is to learn to recognize the distortion and to compensate
for it.  One admitted and recognized, these distorted perceptions
can be slowly worked on in order to remove any fear one may have
from cycling.

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: T junction quandrary
From: mctkew@dct.ac.uk
Date: 14 Dec 92 17:40:47 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

Maybe some netters can shed some light on a situation which could be very
dangerous ....

  I live in Dundee, Scotland, a city very much car oriented, with a large
number of four lane roads, roundabouts and traffic lights. Turning right (UK is
left side drive remember :) !) usually does not present a problem - except in
the rush hour, and I have no hang ups about cycling on the four lane roads - 
but one junction presents me with a problem...

The junction is a T between a 3 lane one way street and a four lane road. I
usually want to turn right, and so position myself in the left hand side of the
middle lane, so that I can be at the side of the four lane road after turning
right. The problem is that traffic can turn both left AND right in this middle
lane - sensible if you are a car driver and want to turn right at the nearby
roundabout, but this duality can be unnerving if there is a large queue of
traffic in the middle lane with cars indicating for both directions (where do
the non-indicating cars go - into the building opposite !!!)

Ken Whelan
MCTKEW@UK.AC.DCT
"Death to unaware car drivers - especially those who park at the side of the
road"
Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:1214 rec.bicycles.tech:2669 rec.bicycles.marketplace:1625
From: mclement@access.digex.com (Matt Clement)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.marketplace
Subject: For Sale-Basso Graftek
Date: 15 Dec 1992 06:11:16 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

 
For Sale
--------
 
   Bike - Basso Graftek, 55cm, Mint condition.  Can't ride now, due to knee 
   injury.  55cm, lugless carbon fiber frame, Shimano 600 Ultegra,
   Campy headset, post; Cinelli bar/stem, Suede Turbo saddle.  
   2 Wheelsets, both Mavic.  Clipless pedals.  Silver/black custom
   paintjob, Imron.  This bike is in brand new condition.  Recently
   appraised at $3,200. 
 
   MUST SELL.  Asking $1000/Best Offer.
   THIS BIKE GOES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER ON FRIDAY, DEC 18, 1992
 
If interested, please respond via e-mail, or call voice (afternoon/evenings)
at 301-652-9246.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Subject: Re: Front Brake Usage
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 05:14:58 GMT

jsr@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Joe Riel 3752) writes:
>[How do riders determine when they have reached maximum braking?
> Probably not lever force, using our builtin decelerometers, maybe
> by detecting a skidding rear wheel.]

Here are some of my own experiences.  Perhaps they will be
thought-provoking.

I have often found empty parking lots and practiced braking very hard
with the front brake.  (Warning: check the lot for grit, first...)
In real-life panic stops I have often braked with *only* the front
brake and slowed fast enough that the rear wheel comes off the ground.
I have never gone over the handlebars when riding on pavement.  I have
gone over the handlebars riding off-road, but usually because the
front wheel has hit something; generally I don't have the brake on
when I go over the bars.

I did the most practicing a decade ago and I'm riding with different
brakes and bikes these days.  With my old brakes I believe that it was
easy for me to brake hard enough to get the rear wheel off of the
ground but if I slid as far back as possible I could pull the levers
to the handelbars without getting the rear wheel off the ground.
These were typically long-reach center-pull and inexpensive
cantilevers on aluminum rims.  I think I also found the same behavior
with the drum brakes that I used.

These days I am often riding bikes with frames that are too small for
me, and the handlebars set too low.  On these bikes I am normally
sitting further forward than on a properly-sized bike.  I find that
braking is much more likely to lift the rear wheel from the ground.  I
also feel quite hesitant about using the brakes hard when going down
moderately steep (5-10%) grades at speed as I already feel that I am
pitched forward and hard braking will throw me over the handlebars.
This is in sharp contrast to braking on a proper-size bike, where hard
braking on steeper downhills (20%) has never been a problem for me.

On my tandem I have braked hard enough in straight-line braking to
skid the front wheel on damp pavement.  Scooting back on the seat
doesn't help :-)

		;-D oN  ( Fool for thought )  Pardo
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Politics of Cycling Speed
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:33:40 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)

>JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester) writes:
>
>>   Michael Sullivan objects to my statement that slow and
>>incompetent cyclists fear motor traffic, saying the he and his
>
>>   My words have obviously hit Sullivan's nerves, because my
>>words don't say that all fast cyclists are competent, or that no
>>fast and competent cyclists fear motor traffic. 

Fear may be reasonable but it shouldn't debilitate: this is the 
constructive part of Forester's doctrine. Reasonable people fear 
sharks, but only neurotics are so scared they stay out of the water.

On the other hand, to imply that the fear itself is unreasonable or the 
result of incompetence is not only insulting, but also effectively 
denies the existence of a significant social problem, namely our 
grotesque overreliance on cars, with all the evils that cars bring in 
their train -- waste, pollution, sprawl, and a scandalous rate of 
deaths and injuries.  It's important to keep the real villain clearly in 
the crosshairs, and not blame the victim.

As Forester notes above, he doesn't actually say that only the 
incompetent feel fear, and I don't claim that he intends to imply that. 

Nevertheless there is a legitimate question of emphasis. Little David 
may very well need to work on improving his slingshot technique, 
but he shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Goliath really is 
a monster.

--Michael Smith
Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:1257 rec.bicycles.misc:1667
From: zaphod@src4src.linet.org (Steve Wechsler)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.misc
Subject: recumbent bikes
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:37:16 GMT
Organization: The Source for Source


Hey folks...

I currently ride a Panasonic racing bike (dx3000), but lately I've
been considering a recumbent (not to purchase immediately,
unfortunately, since money's a problem).  I'd be curious if anyone
could tell me the pros and cons of recumbents, and also good brands,
models, etc, what I can expect to pay for one...I haven't seen one in
any local bike shops (I'm on Long Island), but I'd like to be able to
try before I buy.

Also, is there any problem with riding them on regular bike paths?

Please e-mail, my site purges news faster than I can keep up with it
(I'll post a summary if there's a demand for it).

Thanks.
-- 
Steve Wechsler | zaphod@src4src.linet.org    |    Call Lady Hawke's Castle BBS:
"We've kept the good old vices and labored to invent a few,  |  (516) 226-4630
 With cake in vulgar surplus we can have it, and eat it too" -- Toy Matinee
"Watch??  I'm gonna pray, man!  Know any good religions?" -- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: sstrand@u.washington.edu (Stuart E. Strand)
Subject: Re: Bicycle accident statistics & recumbents
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:01:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.020315.3968@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>,
LOGIN@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.) wrote:
> 
> If the bike path doesn't help make traversing intersections safer,
> what does it do?  

The use of the bike path allows me to minimize my exposure to large, high
speed vehicles.  I accept the frequently stated arguments that bike paths
may have a higher incidence of falls.  (I would like to see this risk
quantified.  I doubt that the difference is large) That's the safety
justification for riding a recumbent.  If I take proper precautions at
intersections with roadways I can minimize the likelihood of accidents
during the residual exposure to motor vehicles.  

To summarize my argument: riding a recumbent on the bike path I can a)
avoid high energy vehicles, b) minimize risk in a fall.  

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/ Stuart Strand, Univ.Washington              sstrand@u.washington.edu /
/ AR-10, Seattle WA 98195 206-543-5350   uunet:  beaver!milton!sstrand /
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Cycling and Environmentalism
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 05:16:00 GMT

In article <1gu6pqINN79d@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> karplus@cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus) writes:
>
>I can think of a few instances when bike paths are appropriate---all
>of them where the points being connected are not connected directly by
>roads.  I agree that these bike paths are more dangerous (per mile)
>than roads are, but if the distance is significantly shorter, I (and
>many others) will be willing to take the extra risk in return for the
>greater convenience and pleasure of the bike path.  

I would really prefer to see people start thinking of bike roads.

The difference between a path and a road is respect.  Roads are taken
seriously, by planners and users; paths are "for fun", so it doesn't
seem as important if things are less than perfect.  It is this attitude
that makes our bike paths unsafe.

Don't lobby for bike paths - lobby for bike roads!

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: LOGIN@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.)
Subject: Re: Bicycle accident statistics & recumbents
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:03:15 GMT
Summary: So then, how does it help?

sstrand@u.washington.edu (Stuart E. Strand) writes:
> madine@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.) wrote:

That's me.

> > 
> > sstrand@u.washington.edu (Stuart E. Strand) writes:

Original post: cyclist moves to Seattle's Burke-Gillman(sp?)
trail for "safety" and finds among other fixed and mobile hazards:

> > > ...,  uncontrolled, or perversely controlled intersections;
> >                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So he:

> > > ... dealt with this by buying a recumbent bicycle.  ...

I don't argue about whether a recumbent is a safer machine to be using
in case of a fall but I ask:

> > How does this help you get through uncontrolled or perversely controlled
> > intersections safer?

Stuart responds sincerely:

> Well, it doesn't, I suppose.  The point I was trying to make was that
> hazards on bike trails make falls more likely and that a fall on a
> recumbent bicycle is less likely to result in serious injury especially to
> the head.

Please let me say that I am not picking on Stuart Strand with this argument.
I am using his timely post and his good observations to illustrate a point.
If the bike path doesn't help make traversing intersections safer,
what does it do?  Stuart's descriptions of bike path intersections
indicate that the presence of the bike path might be making the intersections
*more* dangerous for cyclists.

If the motivation is safety, re-consider the roads.  Use the recumbent.
Falls are still pretty likely.

Gary E. Madine, Allentown, PA
gem@aloft.att.com