From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars
Subject: Re: Luke's lightsaber
Date: 17 Nov 1992 02:07:22 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

flowerpt@coos.dartmouth.edu (Bill McGonigle) writes:

>In article <1e77flINNolf@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>>Also, there is no way to deflect large physical objects.
>>
>>>Maybe not with a lightsaber, but any Jedi should be able to Force 
>>>something large away from himself.
>>
>>I don't think so.  Just looking at the energy should tell you this.  There is
>>just no way that a Jedi could deflect an artillery shell or even a mere
>>speeding bullet with the force.  I mean, you don't think the Force could be
>>used to propell a bullet at those speeds, do you?  So why should the reverse
>>hold?  I mean, if you threw a bowling ball at Darth Vader, he'd be hosed.
>>He would just step out of the way, of course...

>We were talking about deflecting here, not stopping dead in its tracks.
>One newton of force applied to a bullet is more than enough to move it
>a couple feet.  I think Luke is force-pumped-up enough to do this.
>About the bowling ball : How much do you think those large pieces of 
>machinery that Vader was hurling at Luke in TESB weigh?  More than 15lbs,
>I'd say.  And he was doing a bunch of them at the same time.  Yoda didn't
>have any problem moving a X-wing, which I'd put at about ten tons or so.
>Of course, he is the master.  But, even with all this proof, there is
>one clinching arguement, which my friend Yoda so nicely presented.
>"Size matters not."  Be it a pebble or an asteroid. 

Yes, but we're talking about acceleration here.  Notice that Yoda didn't move
the X-Wing particularly rapidly.  It didn't just hop right out of the bog.
Yes, Vader could accelerate those pieces of whatever, but it would take just
as long to slow them down...  Are you really trying to say that Yoda could
catch a cannonball (fired from a cannon) in midair?  If size matters not,
then why didn't Vader just cause Luke's X-Wing to crash in the first
Death Star Battle?  Why didn't the Emperor just personally cause the entire
Rebel fleet to crash into the energy field?  The Force apparently DOES have
some limitations.  And you didn't answer my question...  could the Force
be used to accelerate a bullet to muzzle velocity?  I think not.

>>>Pseudo Jedi Luke easily became distracted, but this was a few days into his
>>>training.  I think that you could have a WWF match, a mariachi band, and 
>>>a fireworks display, and Yoda wouldn't get distracted.  Remember that Luke
>>>in Jedi has only had less than a year of real training and he is able to 
>>>pick 3PO up and move him about in all three dimentions.  
>>
>>I disagree.  I think that if you blew a trumpet in Yoda's ear, he'd lose his
>>concentration as well.

>He can see you without his eyes being open.  He knows what you're doing.
>Jedi's trust this vision even more than their eyes.  Ask Ben.

Okay, how about if you held his head in the swamp?  I bet he'd lose
concentration THEN!

>>Yes, Luke did levitate C-3PO, but he certainly didn't rotate him in the air
>>or do any sort of fancy maneuvers. 

>Well, he did spin him around.  Besides, 3PO would have falled out of his
>throne if he did much more. 

But the point is that there weren't any intricate actions.  You couldn't pinch
my nose closed with the Force...

>>And it isn't all that clear how much training Luke actually had.

>Allow me to clarify:

>Up to TESB, Luke has basically just figured some stuff out on his own.
>His real training begins on Dagobah.  He leaves the same time Han & Leia
>do from Hoth.  They go to Bespin.  How long did that take?  A couple
>weeks at most?  I doubt that much, even.  Okay, so they get to Bespin,

This is the most disturbing inconsistency in the entire Trilogy.  It hasn't
been explained fully...

>and spend, what, a day there, or two?  Then Luke arrives.  TESB is over
>in a couple days more or less, and then Jedi begins six months later, 
>according to Mr. Lucas.  A few days pass, and we're at the Ewok village.
>Even if you want to go out on a limb and say that Han and Leia were
>traveling to Bespin for half a year (so many arguements against this)
>Luke would have had only one year of training.  So the answer to 
>the question is "less than a year."  A Jedi keeps learning, too.  So
>Ben at 100 was way better than Luke in ROTJ, and Yoda was simply
>awesome.  Figure, these guys are so good, they can extend their lives.

>>>Obi-Wan could do mind tricks effortlessly, and his fight with Vader didn't 
>>>seem to require much exertion.  This is how a real Jedi works.  
>>
>>The mind tricks are simple against the Stormtroopers.  Ben would be ineffective
>>against Jabba, for example, or just anyone who knew what he was trying to do.

>How about his fight with Vader?  Luke looked exhausted.  Ben looked like
>he was waltzing. 

>>>In ROTJ, Vader maneuvers his saber to slice the catwalk.  The lightsaber
>>>isn't a boomerang, so he had to guide it through its entire path. 
>>
>>Huh?  It is just a little handle thing.  Surely any good baseball pitcher
>>could have done the same.

>And make it come back?

Well, Vader didn't make it come back right away (it didn't turn around in 
mid-air).  It flew into the rubble, and then he summoned it back a while
later.

>>>What's to say he couldn't have made it go x number of more places before
>>>coming back to him?  And Vader isn't as good a Jedi as Ben is.  "If you
>>>strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
>>>Vader didn't know everything about the Force.  A lot less than Ben.
>>
>>Well, Ben was much older and more experienced.  Remember, Ben TAUGHT Vader.

>EXACTLY!  Ben was a fully trained Jedi.  Vader wasn't!  Luke isn't in
>ROTJ.  I'll concede many of the arguements if we're just talking about
>Luke.  But, if we're talking about fully trained Jedi (Ben and before),
>then it's a different story.

I still don't think that a Jedi could stop a cannonball.

>>>In TESB, the snow speeder's blasters are ineffective against the AT-AT's 
>>>because the armor's too tough.  Now, if they were talking about the 
>>>physical armor, the metal coating, we'd expect to see some dents or 
>>>pox marks where the blasters hit, even though they couldn't penetrate
>>>all the way through.  This isn't the case, however, so the 'armor' must
>>>be a deflector shield, or magnetic field.  Now, we see Luke hop up and
>>>slice apart a hatch control with his lightsaber.  Therefore, we must
>>>assume that the lightsaber can cut through a magnetic field. 
>>
>>No, you aren't looking closely.  All Luke did was knock off a hinge of a bolt
>>or something.  He didn't slice through anything.  There is a big difference
>>here.

>You can't knock something with a lightsaber.  I'm not saying he gashed the
>AT-AT open.  He might have even cut through just a half inch of alloy around a 
>hinge or something.  But the point is that it was part of the AT-AT.  So, it
>was under the AT-AT's field.  And the lightsaber cut through it.  Therefore,
>a lightsaber can cut through a field. 

Surely the armor has weak points.  A blaster might even be able to get through
if used at close enough range (or with accurate enough range).  Remeber,
it is the ARMOR that is tough.  I don't remember anything about a field.
However, the Snowspeeders are able to penetrate the armor when they are
able to get a good enough shot off (remember when the AT-AT was toppled, and
they shot at the neck?  Of course, the neck was probably a weak spot and
that is why it was protected by the AT-AT's own weapons, or perhaps when it
fell down, it cracked open the armor).

>I know some books from the games say you can't but that's just so you don't
>have an invincible character.  I get all my stuff from the silver screen.

I have the games, but I haven't really read through them (they are at home).
However, it is clear from the movies that Jedis AREN'T invincible.  Remeber
that the Jedi were all but exterminated before Star Wars too place.

keith