From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Universal ethic and meat eating
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:09:18 GMT

black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) writes:

> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>>>Secondly, assuming that there will be objections, then I would further
>>>suggest that we request these objectors to demonstrate their good faith
>>>by voluntarily submitting to lots of unwanted pain.  In this way we can
>>>weed out frivolous objections and test the seriousness of the objector. 
>>
>>	I have.  In reverse chronological order: planned hernia surgery
>>this Christmas break, hernia surgery September 1991, surgery on left
>>ankle fall 1987, same leg set w/o anaesthetic one month previous, not
>>to mention various other assorted nasties like having teeth filled,
>>giving blood, rehabilitation for various injuries, etc...  And I take
>>this pain voluntarially because I hate pain-killers when I can get
>>by without them, but none of this pain is wanted.

>Sorry, this doesn't cut it.  I believe that, given these situations, the
>pain is not truly unwanted, since you can choose not to experience it or
>at the very least to alleviate it significantly.

	No, the pain is unwanted.  I can only choose to not experience
the pain of the surgery, for example, but pain from a gangrenous
intestine, an improperly-set leg, or rotting teeth just strikes me as
being unwarranted when a similar amount of pain can be endured for a
shorrter period and result in a marked decrease in pain later on.  Note
that death will accomplish the same goal, and that there is not an
anaesthetic available that will alleviate all of the pain.  Furthermore,
those anaesthetics that will alleviate this pain are highly addictive
and the withdrawl symptoms are often more painful in an anguish sense
than the physical pain itself is.  Thus, the pain is unwanted but is
not unwarranted.  If you can't see this difference, then you have never
been in enough constant pain to justify the increased pain levels for
the promise of a pain-free future.

>In order to satisfy the criterion, you must agree to submit in advance
>to pain selected by someone else.  You will have no idea what the
>nature, intensity and duration of the pain will be, but assume it will
>be intense and longlasting.  Only in this way, can we maximize the
>probability that the pain is truly unwanted and that the criterion is
>satisfied. 

	I hadn't had hernia surgery before, nor have I had a grangrenous
intestine, cancer, a rotting tooth, or even an unset broken bone.  I
based my decision to have these situations prevented by the acceptance
of unwanted pain in the hope of avoiding greater unwanted pain in the
future.  I've met your criterion; the level of pain was not selected by
me, only the duration.  For your information, inguinial hernia surgery
hurts worse than the hernia itself.  The nature of the pain is the
same -- physical pain associated with tissue damage.  Furthermore,
in surgery there is generally a chance, given as 1 in 25 for certain
age groups, that you will simply not wake up.  The chances are greater
that the operation will not be successful and you will be in constant
pain thereafter.  I put up with a large screw in one ankle and the
pain an Iowa winter causes because I like walking and the pain of an
untreated ankle would probably be more annoying than the screw.
Unwanted?  Certainly -- I sure don't *want* my leg waking me up at
night because it hurts!  Unwarranted?  Not at all -- I can walk and
even run a bit now, and that's worth a little pain.

>You're free to choose against having the surgery.  Therefore, given
>your situation, the pain is wanted.

	Should, God forbid, you ever find a cancerous tumor in your
body, remind me to ask you if the pain of surgery, chemotherapy,
and related treatments is wanted and not warranted?  Better yet, ask
a burn victim if the pain from scrubbing the dead flesh away is
wanted or warranted.  Finally, note that your statement above is
tantamount to declaring suicide by non-painful means as the only
method of curing a fatal problem that would otherwise cause pain
in order to cure?  I choose the pain because it is warranted, not
because I want it.  I have no desire for pain -- my desire for
a lack of pain and for my life have *warranted* the enduring of
pain for the few weeks recovery may take.  Note that the simple
infliction of a wound by yourself can easily cause the same
amount of pain, and yet I have failed to do so.  In short, your
justification is as fundamentally flawed as your definition.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"I see angels on Ariels in leather and>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | chrome, Swooping down from heaven to >
<viking@iastate.edu      | carry me home."   ---    R. Thompson >
<ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee.>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals