From: chr04ha@vmsa.technion.ac.il
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:02:39 GMT

In article <1ji5s6INNen8@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu>, khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu 
(dmitry khaikin) writes:
> In article <1993Jan18.232511.1255@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com 
(Maddi Hausmann) writes:

>>I never claimed to be a Torah expert, by the way.  My original
>>contention was that I found most religion, including Judaism,
>>to be sexist, and chose not to participate because of this.
>>
> 
> I never said you should be a Torah expert, but to claim something about
> a religion you should at least investigate the issue very closely. I
> cannot see how you could be brought up as an observant Orthodox Jew and
> have thses views. You claimed that Judaism is sexist, so, I asked you
> how many times a week do you learn Torah, because only a person that
> studies Torah on a regular bases can make this kind of statement. Of
> course, you can too, but that is just emotions without any knowledge. If
> you do study Torah like a man should then it would be another issue,
> since we could argue based on Torah, not on personal experience or
> emotions. Since you did say that you choose not to observe anything at
> all, I assume that you don't observe the mitzvah of studing Torah
> either. 

First, let us agree that one can learn without observing, just as one
can observe without learning (viz. "hassid am-haaretz"). 

Now to the question: "Is Orthodox Judaism "sexist", however the term is 
defined?
One possible probe into how women are regarded in traditional Judaism 
would be to scour the sources for random expressions of rabbinical
opinion on women.  I do not refer to halachic rules, but to random
sayings that  describe qualities attributed to the sex as such.

I made a cursory check of a couple of concordances that I have at home, for
sayings beginning with the word "nashim" in Hebrew or "nashei" in Aramaic 
(women). The relatively few entries that do not describe "mitzvoth" required -
or not required - of women or  refer to specific groups of women (e.g. wise
women, witches,  etc...) are listed below:

One is clearly complimentary:
"Women are merciful." (Megillah 14b)
				 
Another implies that men and women are worlds apart:
"Women are a nation unto themselves." (Shabbat 62a)

A third pronounces on female sexuality:
"Women are not sensitive [to genital manipulation]". (Niddah 13a)

As for the remainder:
"Women are light-minded." (Kiddushin 80b)
"Women are talkative." (Berachot 48b)
"Women are lazy." (Jerushalmi Pesachim Ch.1, Halacha 1)
"Women are gluttonous." (Tohorot Ch.7, Mishnah 9)
"Women who quarrel, quarrel about [each other's] adultery. (Kiddushin 76a)
"Women tell each other everything in the toilet. (Gittin 45a)

There are, of course, many relevant comments that do not begin with
the words "nashim" or "nashei", and the limited selection above hardly
constitutes a statistical sample.  Still, it does cast some light on the
prevailing attitude of the sages towards women at the time the Halacha 
was being codified.

 Amitai
 *---------------------------------------------------------------*
 | E.A. Halevi, Department of Chemistry, Technion - I.I.T.       |     
 | "Mipnei seiva takum, vehadarta pnei zaken" - Leviticus 19, 32 |
 *---------------------------------------------------------------*
> 
>>--
>>Maddi Hausmann                       |  The Truth is still The Truth, forsooth
> Thanks,
> Dima
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
>   "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
>   khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
> --

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