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Posted-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:36:47 EDT
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:36:47 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      random shuffling
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I have noticed that some bulletin boards include instructions for setting
things up for interactive messages.  I have no idea what sort of thing is
possible or how, but conceivably, people could send lines taken from any-
where, including their own heads, send them (with a command to conceal),
and you would receive this concealed message, add your own line, then mail
this combined message to the next address; at some predetermined time the
contgents would be opened and published to the group. An e-mail version
of the game many of you have probably played, maybe in a classroom, in which
you write you line, then fold down the paper so that the next person can't
read what you have written, and it goes around the room until you are out of
paper. Seems like it should be feasible to do a version of that on a board.
Michael B.
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:46:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Legacy of England (Forster again)

MBM, i don't see why you say that "most people on the left" would have a hard
time understanding Britain's failure to "extend the West."  Any good leftist
knows that the French did precisely what you say the British did not:  the
French tried to make good little Frenchmen of their colonial subjects, a
project which certainly yielded ambiguous results even as it "extended" the
West.  Perhaps the most brilliant result of French policy is the "Negritude"
movement of the mid-20th century, where writers who had studied together in
Paris forged a truly international literary movement, a movement most
particularly strong in French West Africa and the Carribbean.  Leftists tend
to be fond of the analysis of the difference between French and British
colonial practices offered up in Jan-Muhammed's book on the Manicheanism
of Colonialism (i can get the precise title if anyone wishes it).

Michael Bruce McDonald (not to be confused with MBM!)
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:11:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hitler as a Brain-Dead Fish - a digression

> You might better have used Pound; he's the standard for such
> statements...

"who's on first?"
"i don't know."
"thiiiird base!"
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:40:33 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Year's End
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Hmmm... "bitten" by a bit of "Frost", perhaps? ...
                                                    --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:45:54 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Russian writers

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: york@mcmaster.bitnet

> Several years ago I was having a coffee with this girl who
> mentioned that I reminded her of the hero of the book she was
> reading at the time. What was the book I asked (thinking Wow...
> Rambo?  Odysseus? . . ) _The Idiot_, she replied, sending me
> off home with smoke trailing from the port wing.



Relax, it may have been a compliment.  The Idiot was presumed
by Dostoevski as the Perfect Man, beyond jealousy and anger
and self-interest and even lust.  Through frightful emotional
abuse, he just lurked, though he was quite animated in his
verbal thrashing of the young infidels at the summer retreat.

Except as an accessory to the Dostoevski obligatory murder,
the Idiot fulfilled expectations quite well, I think.  Of
course, the same might be said for all of us...
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:23:59 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: ubject: Dostoyevsky

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: mcdonald@oregon.bitnet

Feel I really cannot sign on with:


MT> Hitler was both brilliant and anti-Semitic -


Once there was a study of schools of fish.  They swarmed, they
followed first one, then the other, of the eliptical options
offered by members of their troop, then they coalesced back
and waited for another break from another maverick running in
another direction.  But what was it made them follow?  And so
the behaviorists performed a lobotomy on a minnow so that what
remained was a swimming reflex and not much else.  That little
fishy brought the whole herd with him, for he was decisive and
seemed sure of himself, I guess.


When Hitler advanced against an enemy with the resources of
a Czechoslovakia or a Chamberlain, he was accorded brilliance,
even though his instinct was that of the leader of our school
of minnows.  His mental processes were as a bowling ball,
when the pins fell, he was brilliant.  His tanks against
the horses of the Polish cavalry were his best opportunity
for displaying his tactical abilities.


But then when the resistance came, he presented a different
picture.  Rather than brightness his mind gave off many dark
hints of schizophrenia.

He also was a lousy painter.  I wonder today, outside of a few
enclaves I've seen on the news, who would call Hitler brilliant...
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Posted-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:47:45 EDT
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:47:45 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
Comments: cc: .@pacscl.uarc.upenn.edu

mail literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:03:44 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Prose/Poetry
Comments: To: helfrich@SIAM.ORG, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Laura,

          I would also love to discuss any poetry, preferably 20th
          century British, Irish,and American--Auden, Larkin, Yeats,
          Eliot, Roethke, Lowell, Heaney, Montague, Stevens, Williams,
          Hecht, Wilbur, etc.  Would you like to start the discussion?
          The good thing is that lots of people can join in about a
          small poem because we can all go read it rather quickly--as
          opposed to a novel.

          --Dave
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:09:04 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Forwarded mail for LISTS.LITERARY

enough voting!  start discussing!

                                 -Tim
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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:31:14 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:31:14 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Tolstoy's morals
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	There is a Tolstoy before, and a Tolstoy after, his religious con-
version. There is not much moralizing in War and Peace that I can recall,
and the presentation of life is rich and varied. No one writer can have
all the virtues. If you like the constant introspection of Dostoyevsky,
pitched at fever pitch (which drew me to Raskolnikov like a magic spell),
you don't necessarily have to dislike Tolstoy. I wish I could recall more
exactly, but I am not convinced that Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky_ suggested
that one had to make a choice between the two writers. _The Death of
Ivan Illych_ can hardly be faulted for a lack of insight into character,
and this is a work done after his conversion. However, I can understand
someone not getting through Resurrection.  I read it when I was enamored
of Tolstoy's work, had finished War and Peace, and Ann Karenina, and simply
wanted more. They are as different as night and day, but as a reader I
enjoy both universes--if I had to choose, I suppose the nod would have to
go to Dostoyevsky, partly because I found him first, and partly because
of his affinity for, and compassion for, tortured characters--the under-
dog. Tolstoy was a much healthier man, and this shows in his work, both
in his strengths and limitations. Anyway, Tim, very well-written and
persuasive argument.  What do I think I am, your teacher?  Michael B.
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:06:00 CDT
From:         BLAB06WY@UIAMVS.BITNET
Subject:      Gray's Lanark

Hi--
    Recently, I've been reading Alasdair Gray's novel Lanark, which was
given to me by a friend. I think that it's a wonderful book, complex
and playful, and unlike most anything I've read before. Has anyone else
read Gray? Are his other books like Lanark? Does anyone know of any other
books that I might enjoy that are similar to this?

                                      Thanks beforehand,
                                          Steve
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Posted-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 02:01:12 EDT
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 02:01:12 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      The carrier of vision with his last ten years of empty buckets
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

climbs the hill to my house again today,
and I ask him what for, what for do you keep coming,
keep walking, keep carrying your empty buckets,
reminding us of how we could drink
before all of the troubles,
now dammit all we heard are the hollow pails
against your old dry knees.
And he says, he says, the dry old man says
your troubles? your troubles?
What makes you think I got a choice?
Who else is going to make these rounds?
Who else will catch that first rain when it comes
full of seed for clouds
and our world back again.
All right, old man, then
straighten your back.

mbm.
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:22:41 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      contemporary opinions
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          I'm not sure who, but someone noted that  a couple of novels
          (namely, _Ulysses_ and _The Sun Also Rises_) are considered
          great by today's consensus, but rebuked, overlooked, or
          considered tasteless at the time of their publication.  The
          reverse can also hold regarding evaluation of well-known
          authors' works.  For instance, Washington Irving was revered
          during his lifetime
          as a paragon of The Prose Writer:  his style was used in the
          schools as examples of what aspiring writers should strive
          for.  Today, most scholars regard Irving as an entertaining
          and talented story-teller, but not much else.  In poetry,
          Longfellow was held in much higher esteem by his
          contemporary critics than those of the present day.
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 10:51:40 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kipling

A silly joke, which has been dated to about 1906:
Young man: Do you like Kipling?
Young woman: I don't know. I've never kippled.
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:45:14 CDT
From:         steve <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: No Subject Given

The J. Gardner book about fiction writing.  Perhaps: ON MORAL FICTION.

--S. Harris
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Posted-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:16:47 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:16:47 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      another poem
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Though we could handle two at once.  Here's one a little different in tone
and style.



               51

When my hand refuses to hold the pen

as my strength ebbs into space,

my mind will record it all,

itself receding vaguely into the dark.


It will be my last act

unless I perceive you weeping

or with blanched face.  I'll manage

glancing to assure you

I am dying into what is yet unknown

and, like a first journey,

something to look forward to with dread,

of course, but also with the curiosity

of the living.

                  David Ignatow
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:24:48 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Of Levin and Ivan

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: ph408014@brownvm.bitnet

PT> p.s.: digression on the theological:  I see no reason why
PT> good cannot exist without evil.

I think it was Allan Watts told us why it cannot.  The light
cannot exist without the day, and the good without the evil.
The sop "God loves all of you" is meaningless;  if he loves
everybody, he loves nobody.

The simple fact that you choose to hold the door for the
woman with her load, rather than entertaining us all with
a pratfall, resonates with its duality.  We, all of us,
are playing dualities constantly.  I am behaving thusly,
to invite you to contrast with thatly;  I hold the door,
which will cast my deed to dance like first light on an
emerald bay wherever there be oafs who barge in doors
and scatter packaged ladies.


You cannot choose to do anything, say anything, without
suggesting the unsaid, or you be undone.  Plato says
even rapture is a hope against tomorrow, the next moment;
"I want this to continue!"  Into what?  Into the sad time
when I must sit long minutes under a leaky awning with
the fat guy leering and burnt rubber wafting over the
transom.  Rapture has no meaning unless there be the
Houston bus station at 3:00 AM in August.
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Return-path: subrat@itsictp.bitnet
Full-Name: Kar Subrat
Tel: +39 (40) 2240205 [Off]  Fax  : 39(40)224559
Tlx:  460392 ICTP I          Cable: CENTRATOM TRIESTE
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:22:42 -0500
From:         "Kar Subrat" <SUBRAT@ITSICTP.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Legacy of England (Forster again)

(Please do not use my older email address : subrat@itsictp.bitnet)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Re: your email (from MM)
|
| Subrat, one of the short articles that I read (for an overdue bibliography)
| by Nirad C. Chaudhuri, also brings this up about the Indian's attitude to
| the English.  Since his essay was written in 1954, I simply assumed that it
| expressed an attitude long vanished.  Anyway, he went even further than the
| remarks you gave, asserting that England had an opportunity to extend the
| West which they did not understand, and ruined, because they did not want to
| share their language or their culture. Most people on the left today would
| have a hard time coming to grips with the attitude he expresses, because at
| first glance it might seem to go against the conventional anti-colonialist
| sentiments, or perhaps not go against but be more complex than.  Anyway,
| the attitude you describe is important for people to understand--most o
| us end up thinking in simplicities, and when we believe them to be the
| correct, progressive simplicities, we don't question ourselves.  So, how
| are these, or rather, were these incompatible attitudes held by the Indians
| toward the British, and why?
|

To understand Prof.Chaudhuri's viewpoints, one must perhaps know
Prof.Chaudhuri. While respected and liked by the intelligentsia,
his views on India are often a little aseptic, a little divorced
from the humdrum and the earthy. One comes away from all his prose
with the distinct feeling that he is holding his nose (though that
could be dismissed as an opinion). Prof.Chaudhuri, if he could have
exercised that choice, `ra-thuh' be British. I have found his writing
impeccable, scholarly but would hesitate to call him an Indian writer
- or even to acknowledge him as an authentic spokesman for India. He
has the advantage of having lived through the era of India's colonial
past - which I, having entered this world in 1966, cannot claim.

His view that the English lost their chance to extend the West can be
explained if you look at India's history. The successful conquerors
of India were the ones who stayed and became part of India. The Persians
who came into India from the West, stayed on for centuries, founding
the Mughal Empire. The Greeks led by Alexander stayed on in Kashmir,
the Portugese in Goa, the French in Mysore.
All of them sought to conquer the country but were conquered ultimately
by the Indian influence. The British tried to remain British. In that
adamancy, they gave India, in succession, a railway, a democratic way
of thought, a stratum of civil servants and freedom. And then, 'twas time
to go.

Subrat
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:29:51 EST
From:         LBH <helfrich@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Year's End
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

     Now winter downs the dying of the year,
     And night is all a settlement of snow;
     From the soft street the rooms of houses show
     A gathered light, a shapen atmosphere,
     Like frozen-over lakes whose ice is thin
     And still allows some stirring down within.

     I've known the wind by water banks to shake
     The late leaves down, which frozen where they fell
     And held in ice as dancers in a spell
     Fluttered all winter long into a lake;
     Graved on the dark in gestures of descent,
     They seem their own most perfect monument.

     There was perfection in the death of ferns
     Which laid their fragile cheeks against the stone
     A million years.  Great mammoths overthrown
     Composedly have made made their long soujourns,
     Like palaces of patience, in the gray
     And changeless lands of ice.  And at Pompeii

     The little dog lay curled and did not rise
     But slept the deeper as the ashes rose
     And found the people incomplete, and froze
     The random hands, the loose unready eyes
     Of men expecting yet another sun
     To do the shapely thing they had not done.

     These sudden ends of time must give use pause.
     We fray into the future, rarely wrought
     Save in the tapestries of afterthought.
     More time, more time.  Barrages of applause
     Come muffled from a buried radio.
     The New-year bells are wrangling with the snow.

                         --Richard Wilbur--

     Hope there are no typos in that.

     I used that last stanza as a quote in a yearbook once.  Where did you
     hear him read, Dave?
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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 00:56:12 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:56:12 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      What she deserved.
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	Concerning whether Anna Karenina got what she deserved..... It's
been too long since I've read the novel for me to cite instances, but
was her husband not lacking in some ways? Is "honor" a sufficient virtue
in a marriage? Someone with better recall--how is the husband portrayed.
The other thing I wanted to mention was that it was made extra difficult
by society for Anna to have a successful relationship with her lover,
wasn't it? Yours, pleased that all these fine works are under review.
Anyone hear of Book of Seeing With One's Own Eyes by Sharon Doubiago?
Michael (Sorry I did not note down the name of the person I am respond-
ing to).
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 03:02:00 EST
From:         George Mosley <MOSLEY@UNC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: books for freshman writing

Mike,
I have colleagues who say that the composition list out of Perdue is
quite good, full of practical advice on all subjects and lively
discussion.
For my part, I greatly prefer teaching models without formal modality,
as you seem to, but I have few reservations about students seeing
composition as a school subject.  The reason is rather long, but
the short of it is that I make a personal distinction between the
study of literature and pleasure reading and a similar one between
everyday writing and formal speech.  This may seem like a fussbudget
thing to do, but I do it because of a resistance students have to
learning composition at all.
I have heard the "you know what I MEANT" defense one too many times;
it seems to carry with it the "why learn composition when I can already
write good" line of thinking with it.  I try to tell students that,
just as they can add & still need calculus to be engineers, so they
may be able to write refrigerator notes to mother but still need
composition to be effective writers in a variety of circumstances.
.
Also, I'm beset with a private war against mid-70s composition
reform best not gotten into here.
George Mosley (Mosley@unc.bitnet)
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