HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brao@pollux.usc.edu (Bapa Rao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: EVR - Part II (Atheism)
Date: 17 Aug 1992 13:06:00 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

The following outpourings started out as  correspondence with Meenan
Vishnu initiated by me. I thought there would be general interest, so
I decided to share it with s.c.t.

Background:

I pointed out to M. Vishnu that that the verses he quotes from the
Bhagavad Gita are actually Arjuna's words in the early part where he
is confused, (Chapter 1 from which the verses are taken is Arjuna
Vishada-Yoga) thus they do not constitute good evidence for M.
Vishnu's claim about the Gita endorsing a birth-based caste system.
M. Vishnu responded (my paraphrase) that though the words are indeed
from Arjuna in a "confused" state, the confusion in question does not
refer to his understanding about the relationship of caste to birth,
as Arjuna was basically an intelligent and educated man.

Here is a copy of my response to this:

My point was not really about the intelligence of Arjuna. The way I
read my Gita (only a couple of times I must admit, not 200, that too
in Telugu translation :-)), Arjuna was expressing his reservations
about fratricide based on contemporary social and tribal concerns
regarding endogamy and miscagenation. I don't think any reasonable
person will dispute the conclusion from your quoted verses that these
notions (endogamy, miscagenation etc.) were prevalent in the society
of that time. On the other hand, it is invalid to quote these verses
in support of an argument that the Bhagavad-gita endorsed these
notions or even treated them as important.

I feel that your article is misleading in this regard, and I suggest
that you post a clarification.

About your other observations about Yagnas and animal/human sacrifices
etc. there is no doubt that Vedic culture was quite savage in many
aspects. In fact, I have a pet theory that all the Puranic stories
about Rakshasas disrupting Yagnas are actually allusions to militant
vegetarian cults protesting the cruelty to animals, and eventually
these cults won the Brahmins over, and they all became vegetarians.
On the other hand, most of my Jaffna Tamil friends (Hindus and
temple-goers all) routinely indulged (albeit indirectly) in gruesome
animal sacrifice, ardent consumers of meat (especially beef) that they
are. I guess (if some interpretations are to believed) their ancestors
were considered to be the Rakshasas of the Puranas. Sort of an
interesting mutual exchange of ideas there, don't you think?  :-)

If I may preach at you a little bit, let me say that I admire your
obviously impressive degree of learning and your concern for the Hindu
way of life. However, I feel that you are giving exaggegerated
importance to Brahmins in your discourses. Today's Hindus are free to
interpret and develop their faith in any creative manner, and no
Brahmin, however maliciously intentioned, has the power or authority
to prevent it. Life is too short to fight yesterday's wars, especially
if they are mostly imaginary.

K.V. Bapa Rao
From: nraju@usc.edu (Narayanan Raju)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: temple priesthood
Date: 18 Aug 1992 19:37:31 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nunki.usc.edu

 Mr, Sundar writes,
 >      Let me tell case of another 'inherited profession' in which the
        court ruling was exactly the opposite.

        MGR goverment abolished the posts of Village Munsif (maNiyakkaarar)
        and Karnam (kaNakkup piLLai). In fact these posts were more like
        honorary posts held by the upper caste people than a job fetching
        income (the honororium was just about Rs.150).

        Those people went to court, but the government decision was upheld
        by the court. Justice in this case is exactly opposite if you compare
        the one in Priest issue. (Prbabaly, the concept of justice are 
        different in Supreme and High courts).

        This is also forced by the goverment by a midnight ordinance on 
        those people. Now the revenue collection is done by the Village
        Administrative Officers recruited through Tamil Nadu Public 
        Service Commision and are full fledged government employees.

        In essense both the acts of making priesthood and revenue collection
  >      open to all, should be looked as abolishing the feudal practices.



There is a difference between revenue collector and a priest. Religion
is a private matter while administration is not.

I am also for making priesthood(from all religions) open to all.
I am also  for abolishing inheritance of anykind.
But, such a thing should happen in demacratic way.

Raju
raju@spock.usc.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: great guys
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 19:03:36 GMT


      anparkalae:

               Buddhar, VaLLuvar,SiddharkaL, Bhaarathi, 
               Periyaar yenRa varisai gnanaoLi parapiya
               varisai.

               matham yennum pOthayil irunthu veLiyE vanthu 
               saathi yendra mega iruLai kizhithu yeRintha
               kathirkaL.

               paguthaRivE sivam yendRu solli, madamai yennum pEyai
               makkaL manathil irunthu Oti, antha aRivai thantha
               sudarviLakukaL..

              matha saakadaiyil kuLithuvittu mithavaatham seithu koNdu
              naatkaLai kazhippavarkaLukku  avarkaL yethirikaL, maRRiavarkaLukku
              nallavarkal.

       kathiravan.
 
              Buddha, Valluvar, Siddhas, Bharathi and Periyaar
              spread the rays of wisdom.

              These rays removed the dark cloud of religion
              and caste intoxication.

              They said,"God is knowledge obtained by reasoning"
              and drove the demon of stupidity from the minds
              of the people.

              For people who dip in the sea of irrationalism and
              then defend that by fake passivism they became enemies.
              But for the rest they are good.

       kathiravan

                  vAzhga tamizh!

 

        .

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.tamil
From: rammohan@sal-sun118.usc.edu (Karthikeyan Rammohan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Please be Accurate to avoid flame wars.
Date: 21 Aug 1992 09:40:04 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: sal-sun118.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug18.144027.11684@coe.montana.edu> prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar) writes:

>>The way it works is,
>>1) First Meenan Vishnu and kathiravan krishnamurti will post articles
>>that glorify brahmin bashing(justified by using what some idiot said
>>50 years ago or what happened 50 years ago.)
>
>Ok two people post such things[I strongly object your reference to Periyar as an
>idiot].

	Mr.M.P. Premkumar, Could you please clarify as to where in the
above article did i refer to Periyar as an idiot.
>
rammohan




Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: tamilnadu pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagangal
Reply-To: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:35:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.214755.10868@menudo.uh.edu>, Venkatachalam Aruna (Affable) writes:
>
>Chidamabaram - thanthai periyar pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Chennai      - pallavan pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Karaikudi    - maruthu pandiar pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Madurai      - pAndian pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Tiruchi      - dheeran chinnamalai pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Kovai        - cheran pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Kumbakonam   - chozhan pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Vellore      - pattukkotai azhagiri pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Krishnagiri  - rAni mangammAl pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Nellai       - kattabomman pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Nagercoil    - nEsamani pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>Erode        - jeeva pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
>  
>(1) Have I left something?

Yes,Salem     - anna pOkkuvaraththuk kazhzgam

>(2) What is the connection between Chidambaram and Periyar?
>(3) What is the connection between Vellore and pattukkOttai Azhagiri?
>(4) Can anybody brief the importance of dheeran chinnamalai,
>    rani mangammAl, nEsamani?
>  (This may look silly. Really I don't know anything about them)

Nobody knows except for some voters in the region.
 
>(5) Eventhough I've heard of maruthu pandiar and jeeva, I'd like
>    to know more about them.
>(6) Are kamarAj, rAjaji names used for any transport corporations?
>    If not, why? And how they are inferior compared to pattukOttai
>    azhagiri?

Are you kidding? Who do you think is in power?

>
>Cheers,
>Venkat
>--
>venkat@jetson.uh.edu                  | If you love something,set it free.
>venkat@menudo.uh.edu                  | If it comes back, it is yours.
>aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu(NeXT mails okay)| If it does not, it never was.
>(713)-923-7773(h) & (713)-743-4250(w) |
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Kanchi Aacharya
Reply-To: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:53:14 GMT

In article <Aug.18.11.30.05.1992.1513@endeavour.rutgers.edu>, surendra@endeavour.rutgers.edu (Arun Surendran) writes:
>
>Dear friends,
>	This is in response to the news accusing the Kanchi Aacharya of 
>	favouritism in seeing Indira Gandhi .... please see this issue
>	in the light of the following facts :
>
>	yes, the Aacharya does not see widows, generally ( it is a practice
>	even I don't support ). But it is impossible for him to practice 
>	this when he goes on tours. So, if he dows happen to meet them, 
>	he fasts for the day !!
>
>	Coming to Indira Gandhi's case, she was REFUSED audience twice before
>	Still, she persisted. She was allowed the third time, but the
>	Knchi Aacharya fasted for 3 DAYS after this.......
>				^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>	This posting is not in support of the practice but it only
>	refutes the accusation of favouritism ......
>
>	The Aacharya himself has said that there are some practices which
>	 he opposes, but as the head of the mutt, he has to follow the
>	rules set down by the mutt... and not set an example of rebellion.
>

   My God! and he is considered a Godly man..

- Arun

>	AC
>	(AC Surendran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: thai@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Sankaran Thayumanavan)
Subject: Theme of "vAname ellai"
Summary: vAname ellai
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:32:53 GMT
Keywords: Theme vAname ellai


While i fully agree with the theme highlighted by aruna, the theme which 
caught me first in that well-taken movie by balachander is:

Suicide is not the solution for one's frustrations about life and/or society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

i really don't remember if he says that in words in the movie, although i 
vaguely remember rajesh saying that to his son's friends in the movie.

anban,
thayumanavan
From: ganapath@plains.NoDak.edu (Prabhukumar Ganapathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: PONAAL POGATTUM PODA  - A CRICKET VERSION
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:27:17 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


	Eppodho vikatanil paditha oru padal. Padhikku mael
	marandhu vittadhu erundhallum ...


		PONAAL POGATTUM PODA
		--------------------


	Ponaal pogattum poda - endha
	cricketil nilayai adiyavar yarada
	Ponaal pogattum poda


	Vandhadhu pandhu sendradhu stumpu
	eppadi endrae theriyadhu
	vandhavarellam aadi vittaal endha
	innings mudivadhu eppodhu

				(Ponaal pogattum poda)

	sixerum fourum randjiel eduthaen 
	engae oru run adithaena
	erundhaal thanan thaniyae
	paviliyan nokki nadapena

				(Ponaal pogattum poda)

	namakkum malae oruvanada - avan
	rules therindha umpireada 
	out illai endral avan viduvana
	appelalae jaikkadhu andha
	boarduku ponal nilaikaadhu


				(Ponaal pogattum poda)




Sorry could not recollect anymore.


PK
From: ganapath@plains.NoDak.edu (Prabhukumar Ganapathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: 1000KAL MANDAPAM
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:10:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.19762
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


Hi 


	As far as I know there are 1000KAL MANDAPAM's at
	following temples.

		(1)  Srirengam Renganathar Temple

		(2)  ThiruvanaiKoil Jambulingaeswarar Temple


	May be the following temples also have one
		(1) Rameswaram Temple
		(2) Vaitheeswaran Koil
	But I am not sure.	



	BTW The first two temple 1000KAL MANDAPAMS are used
	as WAREHOUSE for storing PADDY etc. Thanks to the
	KAZHAGHA KANMANIGAL these mandapams are getting
	spoiled day by day because of RAT etc.


	When these were rented for the first time TN Government
	assured that they will be vacated completely during
	temple functions (VAIKUNDA EEKADESI in Srirengam
	PANCHA PRAHARAM in T.V.Koil etc) but after doing it
	for a year or two, now they are vacating only a small
	portion of the MANDAPAM for the temple functions. The
	pity is even after all these extra revenue temples
	are still poor.


	In fact I want to start some discussion on the NET
	what NETTORS feel about TN GOVERNMENT's involvement
	in HINDU TEMPLES while they don't dare to enter
	other RELIGION WORSHIP PLACES.


	Of course if time permits I will post some articles
	about the latest PURATCHI of our BELOVED JAYA with
	respect to temple management as reported in THUGLUK.
	In that artilce it is stated that JAYA has blamed
	Shri. H .H Kachi Acharya of preaching violence etc
	etc. 

	OK I have deviated a lot. Let me stop here.


	Why not some one summarize all 1000KAL MANDAPAM's in TN.


	PK
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1285 soc.culture.indian:28796
From: rkrithiv@pima.intel.com (Ramamurthy Krithivas)
Subject: Re: tamilnadu pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagangal
Keywords: TPTC,MPTC,CTC,NTC,PTC etc
Organization: ------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:46:24 GMT


>From: Venkatachalam Aruna (Affable)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
>Vellore      - pattukkotai azhagiri pOkkuvaraththuk kazhagam
> Are kamarAj, rAjaji names used for any transport corporations?
> If not, why? And how they are inferior compared to pattukOttai
> azhagiri?

 What "tamizh thondu" did Rajaji and Kamaraj do ?

   ----> Did they cut off the poonol/kudumi of Brahmins ?
   ----> Did they harass brahmins/brahminism"-)" ? 
         
 Dammit, with no proper "credentials" how can a transport organization 
 be named after them ??? 

 [Janakaraj Mode]
  -->> Venkat!  Innabaa neee ....  kurumbu thaane ???? <<--
  .......... 

Krithi.
From: babu@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Natarajan Sureshbabu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Aaaaa....Rambam :- It's kadi time
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:13:16 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore


That reminds of a day in school, when my tamil teacher, having
teaught the grammer for veNpa, asked the guys to come to
school the next day, with a veNpa of their own. One guy
wrote the following,

	ella viLakkum viLakkalla; sAntoRku
	maNNeNNai viLakke viLakku.

Of course, he got a few canings for not complying with
the grammer rules, is a different story.

Bye,
Babu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:853 alt.culture.tamil:1170
From: somasun@server.uwindsor.ca (SUNDHAR SOMA             )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Planning of Madras city
Summary: Madras , planning
Date: 12 Aug 1992 19:48:44 GMT
Followup-To: poster

In article <l8hhcrINNnb1@aludra.usc.edu>, nagabhus@aludra.usc.edu (Vasuki N) writes:
> 
> 	It is surprising that Madras being one of the biggest cities in India
> does not have planned growth of the city. Just adjacent to the "municipal
     <stuff deleted> 

  VERY TRUE. But , this is almost the same for any other big city in India
   ( in particular). 
 
  But , in mid 1980 's the TN govt. was trying some " City Beautification
  Scheme " and had some interesting plans.
  But seeing today , it is clear that nothing came out of it.
  BTW, any idea regarding the process of the underground transit system
  from Adyar (/ Mylapore ) ?

> Anybody from Madras ?, what do you feel ?

  I am from MAdras , and I feel VERY SOAR of the maintainance of the city.

 -Somasundhar.V.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: Re: Kanchi Aacharya
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:36:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.125705.17542@ms.uky.edu> aras@ms.uky.edu (P. I. Arasu) writes:
>I recollect reading an advice the Kanchi Acharya (the 2nd) gave the
>public (read in the Hindu religious column):
>	"Write Sri RamaJayam 1000 times everyday. You will 
>	 get Motcham!"

You think that is bad!  Read "Theyvaththin Kural" (Vol 1,2...) by "kaancip
periyavaaL" and you are sure to get sick.  It is amazing that some brain dead
fellow writes this type of crap and there are people to accept these kinds 
of advice even in this twentieth century !

>-arasu
>

Meenan Vishnu
From: vidynath@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyarath K Rao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Why are TAMILS hated ? (SOME ANSWERS !!)
Date: 16 Aug 1992 18:05:57 -0400
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: function.mps.ohio-state.edu

In article <1992Aug16.202016.9447@wam.umd.edu> ravik@wam.umd.edu (Ravi Kuchimanchi) writes:
>I am posting this for a friend. Please dont email this account.
>			-Ravi
>___________________________________________________________________

>Sanskrit is the oldest Indo-European language and the Vedas
>are at least 3700 years old. 

Oldest known written material in Indo-European languages are in Hittite.
The Vedas are, barring sensational new discoveries, basically undatable.

We can talk only of dating known material. There must have been people
speaking in some Indo-european dialect in 4000 B.C. Of course it is
likely to have been different from all known languages.

[Can't resist: people living in glass houses should not throw stones]


>(Example 2: I had a good laugh when someone refered to TOlkappiyam as 
>the most ancient grammar. Especially as it is believed the person who 
>wrote it belonged to one of the ancient Sanskrit grammar schools. 

There is one thing about Tolkappiyam that I would like to know: What is
the exact analog there to Panini's Siva Sutras? (Siva Sutras are the sutras
that list the phonemes of Sanskrit) Is there any reason given in Tolkappiam
as to why the alphabet of Tamil is different from that of Sanskrit, and has
a single letter "ka" that some times gets pronounced as "g"? This could be
one thing  that Tamilians can boast of: discovery of the modern definition
of phonemes of a language.

Let me explain the last paragraph better: In Sanskrit, confusing "k" and "g"
can change a word. In Tamil, it does not. So in Sanskrit, "k" and "g" are
distinct phonemes. In Tamil, they are different sounds that belong to the
same phoneme. A truly phonetic script should have one symbol for each
phoneme, while the different sounds belonging to the same phoneme can be
given by context. Thus the Tamil alphabet represents a grasp of things
better than everyone else till 1800s, and better than most people (especially
workers in computerized voice production) today.



-- 
Vidhyanth Rao			It is the man, not the method, that solves
nathrao+@osu.edu		the problem. - Henri Poincare
(614)-366-9341			[as paraphrased by E. T. Bell]
From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Hate- tamils
Date: 14 Aug 1992 15:43:46 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


> Thiyagarajan(thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT) )  writes :

>>Mr.Kathiravan Krishnamurthi quotes in his previous article
>> 
>>"  They had Periyaar who valiantly stood against 
>>all the machinations of the varNa based
>>brahmanism and veda based irrational stupidity 
>>in the country."
>> 

>Boy when will you stop blaming everything on Brahmins?
    
   As I see, this posting by Kathiravan Krishnamurthy
does not blame everything on Brahmins as you are claiming.
Could you throw some light on how you arrived at that
conclusion ?

>Anyway few quotes from your "Periyar"
                       ^^^^^^
   What do you mean by `your Periyaar' ? If you don't like
 Periyaar's views, you may say it directly.
   Now, I will come to your quotes of Periyaar.

>	" Tamizh oru KattuMirandi bashai"
 In ADAMI
          "thamizh oru kaattumiraandi baashai"

   Periyaar indeed said the above quote. When asked why he
 said this, Periyaar countered with a popular Tamil quote
 used by many Tamil speakers,
    "kal thOnRi maN thOnRaak kaalaththu mun thOnRi
     mooththa mozhi - thamizh" 
 and asked the questioner what could he conclude from this
 popular quote and he also agreed with Periyaar in saying 
   " thamizh oru kaattumiraandi baashai".
	
>"I do not have any patriotism, I do not have any love for one language"

     Periyaar said the above also, but it could be easily
 misunderstood if it is taken out of context. I don't remember
 the exact words of Periyaar, but he said something like,
   " I do not have any patriotism or any love for one
     language. I am only concerned about poor people."  

> RT                
                                                   S.Pandian
                                          sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: nraju@usc.edu (Narayanan Raju)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Anti-Hindi or Anti-Hindi IMPOSITION
Date: 15 Aug 1992 21:07:52 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nunki.usc.edu


sramacha@talitha.usc.edu (Sudarshan Ramachandran) writes,

>1. TAMILS ARE EXTREMELY JINGOISTIC ABOUT THEIR REGION:

>"Everything these Tamils do or talk about centers around their region alone.
>Logical or not, anything that begins with a "Ta" and ends with an "il" and 
>an "M" (yes, Yum ;-) )in between gets them crazed. These are people
>responsible for spearheading lingua-based seperatist intentions in our
>country. By an outright rejection of Hindi, they destroy a convenient channel
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of communication running through the nation. And they support an international
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>terrorist organization, i guess,  because "TAMIL" is a part of its name.
^^^^^^^^^
>Take the Telugus for instance.  Their language happens to be widest spoken 
>in the South. But this doesn't stop them from accepting Hindi so sportingly, 
>and more important, without violence.



Nothing can be farther from truth as are the above statements.

1) Let me remind him that we are not anti-Hindi. We are only anti-imposition.
In fact, we are against any imposition, not just language imposition.
We say let free-market policies decide which language a person wants to learn.
As far as the Union Govt. is concerned it NEEDS TO DO JUSTICE. Justice here
means an equal treatment of all languages; let the money spent on languages
be proportional to the population that speaks it; let there be no monopoly
of language in the National Channel -- allot time for each language as per
the population percentage.

Remember only in TN a school kid is not forced to learn the state language;
all other states makes it compulsory for a school student to study the 
language of the state.

Remember we are not suppressing the legitimate and democratic rights of the
language HIndi. On the other hand the HINDIANS are suppressing legitimate
and democratic rights of all the minority languages not just Tamil.


2) As to the  "support of an international terrorist organisation," learn
to recall that Mrs. Gandhi was the person responsible for arming the
LTTE, while educated Tamils like Cho. Ramaswamy opposed it.



Raju
raju@spock.usc.edu



Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil