HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: glad@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Clayton Glad)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:00:39 GMT

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>Think of it this way, if no sounds are any more musical than any others,
>then why bother having musicians?  CDs?  Composers?  Why not just listen
>to the dryer spin?

Well, why *not* listen to the dryer spin?  

In fact, I once had a very pleasant impromptu percussion jam with some
friends initiated by the music we heard in a dryer spinning inside an
otherwise quiet laundromat.

I can only feel pity for someone whose "definition" of music precludes
that sort of experience while allowing for sitting in front of a workstation
and listening to Rachmaninoff on the Discman.

-- Clay
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Rageian Cageians (Re: John Cage is Dead)
Keywords: gumbo
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:29:40 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Sep3.052052.16301@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
=mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham) writes:
=: As a Cageian?  (Now we can have only two types of
=: musicians/listeners: Cageian and non-Cageian.  It's like there are
=: only two kinds of automobiles: Chevrolets and non-Chevrolets.)
=: :-)
=: 
=Not to mention Cajuns

Couldn't let the opportunity for that one pass bayou, eh? :-)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: knight@cray.com (Steve Knight)
Subject: Re: William Bolcom's  _McTeague_
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Aug 92 06:42:23 CDT

In article <1992Aug27.110405.9006@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp (Herb Stahlke) writes:
> In article <BtLKF9.H9D@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin) writes:
>
> > Anyone have any info on Willam Bolcom's opera _McTeague_ which will be  
> > premiered in Chicago in October? (Lyric opera, I think)
> > 
> > Anyone know the story, or the source of the text?  Is this his first opera?
> 
> _McTeague_ is a fair-to-middlin' novel by Frank Norris, published by Rinehart
> in 1950.  As a fair-to-middlin' novel, it's also the best thing Norris ever
> wrote.  I suspect the movie _Witness_ borrowed the "drowning in corn" scene
> from McTeague, who ends up drowning gloriously in wheat at the bottom of a
> silo.  I'm curious how they'll stage that.  I hope the libretto and music are
> better than the book.

Uh...  They shouldn't have to stage anyone drowning.  McTeague is very
much alive, albeit doomed, at the end of the novel.  A quick
thumb-through of the Penguin American Library edition (to make sure my
memory isn't playing tricks), in fact, turns up nary a grain silo in
the entire book.  The story is, after all, set almost entirely in
turn-of-the-century San Francisco, with the exceptions of McTeague's
origin in a mining town and the ending in Death Valley (an area not
noted for its granaries :-).

Note that although an edition of "McTeague" did appear in 1950, the
novel was originally published in 1899.

As another reference point, "McTeague" was filmed in 1923 by Erich von
Stroheim and released as "Greed."  The entire ten-hour, 42-reel version
that von Stroheim filmed has been lost and is something of a holy grail
for film historians.  (The much-condensed released version was a studio
edit.)

Note that I do not, myself, know for a fact that this novel is what the
forthcoming Bolcom opera is based on, although it seems a safe bet.

	Steve Knight
	uunet!cray!knight
	knight@baldmt.cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: michaet@hubcap.clemson.edu (michael dale townsend)
Subject: Re: Timpani in Church
Keywords: timpani, church
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:39:33 GMT

mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham) writes:
>How many are in churches which occasionally use timpani in special
>services, but borrow or rent them OR have/hire a timpanist with
>their own set?  (Again, how many usually used?)
>--Mark Gresham

My church's choir director is also a high school band director.  He
borrows the school's timpani and a percussionist.  They only have 3.

Michael Townsend		michaet@hubcap.clemson.edu
From: haack@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:40:50 GMT
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Tulsa Opera has been using supertitling for some years now.  I found that it
greatly enhanced my enjoyment of the opera, especially those that were slow on
action.

Joel
From: U58402@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Tosca recordings
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:03:25 GMT
 <1992Aug25.230758.15109@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <1992Aug25.230758.15109@husc3.harvard.edu>,
vnguyen@husc-news.harvard.edu.UUCP (Vinh Nguyen) says:
>
>Well, perhaps we are talking of a more competitive standard here.
>There are simply too many Traviatas, Carmens, Aidas, and what not
>and although many of them would be quite accomplished on their own,
>the field is rather too competitive for a clear winner.  The sole
>exception I would grant is for Tosca when the 1953 Callas version
>still beats out a most competitive field imaginable.
>
Well, guess what I found? An original pressing of the 1953 Callas
Tosca....and it was autographed by Callas, too!

I love used record stores.

The records are in great shape, too.

Wilbur Pan
(aka u58402@uicvm.uic.edu
 at the ever so friendly and personal univ. of ill. at chicago)
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: rec.music.compose
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:40:14 GMT
Organization: Digital Systems Co., Atlanta GA

In <1992Aug27.075147.24779@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
>
>What happened to rec.music.compose?

It probably decomposed.


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Subject: Disliked music (was Re: Bottom ten operas)
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 01:40:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.183017.1928@Princeton.EDU> mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska) writes:

>For me, a more interesting psychological question is: Why would anybody
>start a thread about music s/he *dis*likes most?  Why even bother 
>thinking about works one doesn't like (and some other people do)?

This is a wonderful question, and one that recurs to me as I read this
newsgroup.

While nowdays I only do this when I feel like being curmudgeonly, it
used to be that I was happy to comment about music I didn't like. People
who have been around this group long enough to remember net.music might
remember snideness directed at various kinds of pop music, minimalism,
probably even Cage, by yours truly. Invective is fun to hurl, and far
greater (and lesser) minds than mine have hurled it - what's the
Slonimsky book, _A Lexicon of Musical Invective_? - although many of
those hurlers were being paid for the privilege. Which answers the
first question for them quite well, but I presume it was really directed
at those, like me, who aren't paid for their slams.

So what changed? Let's see. Minimalism - heard some pieces of this type
I liked. Cage - two things, I guess; I still have not heard much of his
music. People who I respect here in the newsgroup said interesting things
about his work, and I realized Cage was not trying to supplant or replace
the musical developments I was interested in. Pop musics and their various
associates - I'm not sure; all I know is, while I still am not interested
in most of this stuff, it just doesn't offend me any more. Most Baroque -
sorry, still sounds like sewing machines to me. :-) (Why, oh, why, of all
the centuries there has been music in western culture, does the 17th still
leave me cold? Oh well...) Music from Soviet Russia - um, well, moving 
right along...

Anyway, the point is, I seem to be past that stage. Music I don't like,
I just don't care about, don't comment on, avoid listening to. (And really,
this seems like a far more powerful antipathy than any amount of verbal
assault, if less perceptible to others.) So, I can no longer answer
Margaret's question, even assuming I were self-aware enough to do so.

Life is short. Why waste time listening to music you don't like? Why dwell
on the times you had no choice? Why complain if you've only heard a few
items of the sort you disliked?


The best answer to Margaret's second question has to be, "to try to figure
out what I'm missing". 

						Jeff Winslow
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hamish@netcom.com (Just Another Deckchair on the Titanic)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 04:17:23 GMT
Organization: Pandemonia PLC

In article <BtIpL8.Mqp@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
	[...]
>That's the question I answered with the following analogy...
	[...]
>I have explained it again and again.  Please refer to my "doctor analogy".
	[...]
>I am *more* glad that Stalin is dead, but my analogy was not meant to equate 
>the two, but to validate the principle involved.
	[...]
>Until you can learn how to interpret analogies, maybe you should just 
>stop commenting on my posts.  Perhaps your utter inability to understand 
>analogies explains you inability to understand art...an interesting theory.

I don't get it... way back when, The Inimitable Yoder was called on his
use of (often, errm, *stretched*) analogies. In defence, he says he
doesn't use analogies, he presents arguments. When challenged to
produce these arguments, he produces more analogies - and then berates
Roger (and, by extension, a large number of us out here) for not
understanding the analogies he's using as arguments. (It's not as
though we don't understand analogies, even yours - it's just that
they're often so obviously inapplicable it's hard to take them
seriously).

Brian - where's the beef? Some of us are *still* waiting for a logical,
well-argued, analogy-free argument in support of the contention that
Cage even came close to killing (or crippling) music; several explicit,
and, above all, *informed* references to Cage's music and its
influences, etc. etc. would be required here, of course.

	Hamish (an UnAcademic still in awe of just how much like my
		academic music teachers Brian sounds...).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamish Reid   +1 510 596-3917   hamish@netcom.com   hamish@sybase.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman)
Subject: O Fortuna Rides Again!!!
Organization: City of Saint Paul Public Works
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:46:14 GMT

In rec.sport.triathlon, tjensen@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (todd.r.jensen) writes:

> My brother was telling me he saw the Nice Triathlon on TV over the
> weekend (on ESPN, I think).  Did anyone else see it?  Mark Allen kicked
> some butt on the 30K run!  And two months before the race he broke his
> collarbone.

The coverage was pretty good, except that the only two women mentioned were
Wendy Ingraham (first out of the water) and Paula Newby-Fraser (the winner).
The part that really made my skin crawl was the inclusion of the oft-used/
abused "O Fortuna" song from Carl Orff's Carmina Burana.  Gack.  What's
next, "O Fortuna" in the soundtrack for golf videos?

-- 
Chris Lyman                    /  Due to circumstances beyond your
email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov  /  control, you are master of your
#include <std.disclaimers.h>   /  fate and captain of your soul.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Recordings of S. Richter
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 22:55:47 GMT

I think Richter's Rachmaninov Concerto #2 is terrific.  Some have
argued about his tempi, but I have not heard a more satisfying
second.  It's on DGG.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: schissel@mace.Princeton.EDU (Eric Schissel)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Shostakovich's musical joke
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:09:20 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

Within particular Shostakovich works, there's a fine joke
in the 4th symphony op. 43, when the flute ends a fairly carefree
tune in G over a sudden clouding C# pedal (i don't know if i'm
remembering this correctly, but it's in the finale).

schissel@math.cornell.edu
schissel@mace.princeton.edu (machine used for post)
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Timpani in Church
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:45:59 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <46920@dscatl.UUCP> mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham) writes:
>How many of you out there participate in or direct church music
>programs where the church OWNS a set of timpani, and how many
>drums is in that set (2, 3, 4 or 5)?

>How many are in churches which occasionally use timpani in special
>services, but borrow or rent them OR have/hire a timpanist with
>their own set?  (Again, how many usually used?)

You could call First Baptist in Ft. Worth; friends of mine who have
gigged there report that services start with a dramatic timp roll.

Somewhat related story: H. C. Robbins Landon, as a young soldier in
occupied Austria after WWII, got a job playing timpani at St. Augustine's,
where they generally do a Mozart mass on Sunday.  He tried to explain
this to his CO (to get leave for rehearsals) and was met with the
incredulous question:

  "They play *drums* in Austrian churches?"

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Sergiu Celibidache
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:51:39 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug31115103@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>I've been interested in Celibidache mainly because of his reputation.
>(His uncompromising image always makes his name look to me like a
>cognate of "celibate", though I doubt his asceticism goes in that
>direction.)  So what recordings *do* exist, to give us a sense of why
>he's so revered?
>

You might try the ASDisk recording of his and Michelangeli's Emperor.
Schubert Symphonies 8 and 9 on Hunt, and an extraordinary Strauss 
_Four Last Songs_ with Janowitz, also on Hunt.  Other recordings 
of interest:  Bruckner 9, Tchaikovsky 5 & 6, and a (molto strange) 
_Symphonie Fantastique_, all on Hunt.  But if I had to pick one, 
it would be the Emperor.

C. is reputed to hold "advanced degrees" in logic and philosophy.
Does anyone have accurate details on this?

>Chris Brewster
From: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Last Night of the Proms / words
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:57:01 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

>tom@fokus.gmd.de (Tom Pfeifer) wrote:
>> So I ask here if there is any proud Briton or other fan of the
>> Proms to send me the words of:

>> William Blake / Parry : Jerusalem

>This is part (either the beginning or the end, I forget which) of Blake's
>long poem "Milton", which you can find in the standard collected edition of
>Blake (Geoffrey Keynes's, from Oxford University Press), or in most poetry
>anthologies that include anything by Blake.  Mostly sung by petty English
>bigots (like the morons who go to the Last night, or the delegates to Tory
>Party conferences) who Blake would have detested.

>> A.C. Benson: Land of Hope and Glory
>> Arne: Rule Brittania

>Swap you.  You tell me the words to the Horst-Wessel-Lied and I'll find
>these.  They have identical connotations: mindless, lethal, psychopathic
>nationalism.  Unlike Blake, those evil little shits have been understood
>perfectly by posterity.

Hey, steady on Jocko! He only asked for the words - I daresay he can make
up his own mind about the connotations. Mindless they maybe - but lethal,
psychopathic? Surely that's going a bit too far. I don't think the last
night of the Proms has much to do with the more disturbing side of British
nationalism, and it's a pity that people take the opportunity every year
to associate the two. After all, Scotland feels entitled to revel in all that
is Scottish, presumably because it doesn't have any separate colonial
embarrassments. Why shouldn't Britain as a whole be permitted a bit of
nationalistic nonsense occasionally? The Last Night is a pretty harmless
event, even if the audience does have a substantial moronic contingent.

Martin Watts.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: Enough about Cage, what about Partch?
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:54:57 GMT

Vance Maverick (maverick@mahogany.CS.Berkeley.EDU) writes:

> Did Danlee Mitchell or any of the other Partchians ever do any new
> music on Partch's instruments?

While I was in San Diego I attended one Danlee/Partch concert which 
included a piece by one of the ensemble - I can't be sure who wrote it. Its 
style was somewhat reminiscent of Partch's.

Unfortunately, none of that bunch ever seems to have taken up composing in 
a big way, and at the time anyway, they were pretty possessive about the 
instruments.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: lana@magenta.corp.sgi.com (Lana Mountford)
Subject: Re: 
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:21:32 GMT

[I would include the entire beautifully written article, but I kinda
want to preserve bandwidth]

I'm another pianist with a penchant for Brahms.  The first Brahms I
ever played (I think I was 12 or 13) was the Opus 79 no. 2, followed 
shortly by the Op. 79 no. 1.  After that, I was hooked.  I did the 
"Variations on a Theme by Handel" for my college auditions (some 25
years ago).  I've also done the 1st Concerto.

Brahms is what I reach for when I'm *really* angry or disgusted with
my boss.  :-)
-- 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|    /)                      | Lana Mountford    
|   / /  __    ___    __     | Silicon Graphics  
|__(_/__(__)\__/  )__(__)\__ | Mountain View, CA 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: _New Yorker_ story by Gopnik
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:48:13 GMT

Is the Adam Gopnik story in the recent _New Yorker_, "Musical Fathers"
about the sort of people (or the sort of fatherly ones, anyway) who
read this newsgroup?  Should we/they react hostilely?
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: rec.music.compose
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:44:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: Princeto.1992Aug27.154443.7793
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Aug27.075147.24779@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:

>What happened to rec.music.compose?

Brian proved it didn't exist.

(By analogy, of course.)

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Nigel Kennedy
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:39:34 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug31140831@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Stephe Lewis Foskett writes:
>   ...
>   I hear he has a jazz CD, too...
>
>Ah, cross-over artists.  Has anyone "crossing over" done anything really
>worthwhile?  

Yes, but probably not in the direction you're thinking of:  Keith Jarrett.

Other than that, perhaps James -> Jan Morris?  (Just a joke, just a joke.)

-----

Steve


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: benjamin@force.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Reply-To: benjamin@force.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale, California
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 18:08:38 GMT

In article <Btp9nG.MuI@news.udel.edu>, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.215817.13690@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>
>>One of the reasons I enjoy NY City Opera is their use of supertitles.
>>Sorry, my Italian** is just not good enough to follow the story line
>>of an unfamiliar opera.  Any opinions on the use of this technology?
>
>I have an opinion, an unpopular one.  I hate them.  I think they wreck
>the live experience of an opera, and turn it into television (I don't
>despise television, but a live theatrical experience is something else).

>As an alternative:  Why has everybody given up on performing opera in
>translation?  THAT is a live, compelling experience.  When I was a music
>student at Indiana U, I saw 6-8 operas a year in English.

I couldn't agree more!  I had the best opera experience of my life this 
summer when the San Francisco Opera put on (Free! Outdoors in the park!)
a performance of Domenico Cimarosa's "The Secret Marraige" in a fantastic
English translation by Donald Pippin.  Holy Smokes!  Actually being able 
to understand the words and feel their relation to the musical phrase in
"real time"!  I was *completely* blown away.  So THIS is what opera is
all about!  Much better than glancing up and down from the stage to the 
supertitles, knowing that your reading and your listening may be 5 seconds
out of phase with each other.  Aach.  Alas, the women singers still needed 
help with their diction.  Some things will never change, even in translation!
;-)

Brian
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Samindranath Mitra)
Subject: Re: La Traviata
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:54:58 GMT

Alak writes:
>P.S. A related question. Are there other operas that you would put on a short
>list of operas and yet not on a short list of recordings because of the lack
>of an adequate one? And your reasons for the lack of such a recording?

An opera, one of my favourites, that immediately comes to mind
as having the same problem is "Boris Godunov". There are several
recordings, what with the myriad versions and all, but none that
can be considered as the ONE that brings out the essence of the
opera. I wonder why?

Maybe, as has been recently discussed at length in the newsgroup,
the "Meistersinger" is another such dilemma?

					Sami Mitra

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: rec.music.compose
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:51:47 GMT


What happened to rec.music.compose?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pdelafos@djulien.dsd.es.com (Peter Delafosse)
Subject: Tawaststjerna's "Sibelius"
Reply-To: pdelafos@djulien.dsd.es.com (Peter Delafosse)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 18:46:55 GMT

-- 
Does anyone know if the third volume of the English translation of 
Erik Tawaststjerna's "Sibelius" is in the works? Volume 2 was issued
in 1987, and volume 3 is long overdue.

--Peter DeLafosse