From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Hamas
Date: 24 Dec 1992 17:19:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem) writes:

> Hamza writes:

>>Even the one who was kidnapped from Lud was a soldier who had his weapons
>>with him, and used to kill not only Palestinian men, but also women and
>>kids.

>Somehow I can't swallow it.  Do you have evidence that Nissim Toledano
>did kill "not only Palestinian men, but also women and kids"?

Friends in Palestinian refugee camps told me that these border
gurards throw gas bombs on their homes which results in suffication of
all kind of people specially kids.  It also results in whole alot of
misscarrages.
Don't play smart by asking individual evidences!  Be general in your
perspective.  As said in Arabic,"The one who lives with a group of people 40
days, become part of them."  What applies to the border guard who kills
kids, apply to any other border guard.

I wonder what you would do if you were in their position and have one
of your kids die in front of your eyes.  If you can "swallow" this, others
don't!

>In fact, I think we should thank Ron
>for his good intentions.  And to this extent, yes, some Jews know about Islam
>more than Hamas!

Sure.. Ron wants to tell so many good things about Islam.  One of them
is that parents whose kids are getting shot in cold blood are child-
abusers.   Very good intention, isn't it?

>As you know, scholars have expanded on the "be careful" (ittaKoo Allah!).
>And as you know, this verse can not be understood out of context.  It has
>to be balanced, for example, with the following verse:
>
>"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even
>as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be
>(against) rich or poor; for God can best protect both.  Follow not the
>lusts (of your hearts) lest ye swerve, and if ye destort (justice) or
>decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye
>do" (4:135).

Fine.. But, what times do muslims apply this verse?  Even if they get
killed by injust doings.  Islam does apply this verse, and much better
verses than this, which are throught Quran and Hadith, in times different
than what the Palestinian people are going through.
As I told you "Lukil Maqaamin Maqaal".

The above verse was applicable in times where Islam was the major
power and muslims were in peace and not oprressed.  However, Al-BaQarah
verses which you completely ignored, which talk about "Qisas" retaliations,
came in a time where muslims were opressed, beaten, deported, etc which are
the same of the Palestinians today.

>>Al-Maaidah
>>{
>>45. And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and
>>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by
>>what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
>>}
>>
>>If tooth and wounds count, what do we say about other things, ie kids,
>>women, old people, etc...?

>For God's sake, the Maaidah verse is depicting what things were PRIOR to
>Islam.  Would you please do yourself a service and read a couple of verses
>before and after the one you quote?

* Yes.. This verse was put to the people of the book (jews) in their Torah.
  And there are so many other verses that Islam takes from Torah and
  Bible, except for very few ones that Islam overrode.  One famous example
  that Islam takes from Torah is the punishment for committing adultary.
  Torah says adulterer is to be stoned to death, which is the same in Quran.
  Other things include fasting, charity, etc... which are things that were
  P R I O R  to Islam but muslims still do it.
  Read Al-Baqarah verse quoted in the previous post to see what Qisas mean!
  And if this verse is not applicable to muslims these days, Hamas, Malcom X,
  and many others are all wrong and you are the new Sheikh of Islam.

* Here is the verse that is before it:

  44. "Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and
  light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah)
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of
  Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required
  to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses
  thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  unbelievers."
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
  The prophets who submitted themselves to Allah are among them
  the prophet of Islam(pbuh).  So  he is part of these people
  "Alatheena Aslamoo" who judge for jews and muslims. And the
  rest of the verse is directed to muslims otherwise it would've
  been said instead of "therefore fear not the people and fear Me,
  and do not take...", "therefore let them fear....".
  So when the next verse comes, both jews and muslims are included.

* A final word to you that is don't be like these people of the
  book "who beleive in part of the book and disbeleive in the
  other."
-- 
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic