From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:38:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.235635.708@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Sep6.165554.26010@discus.technion.ac.il>,
>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
>|>In article <1992Sep4.204226.1451@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
>|>writes:
>
>|>>Your mythology might have more credibility if the bible explained just when
>|>and
>|>>how the Jews managed to lose the ark of the covenant. That must have been
>|>quite
>|>>a difficult one to explain to the chief priest eh? It is obvious that the
>|>bible
>|>>does not tell the whole story there and it is equally obvious that it is not
>|>an
>|>>impartial account (to put it mildly!)
>|>>
>|>>The greek myths contain passages which were deliberatly inserted to give a
>|>cause
>|>>for invasion later. Ever wondered why Hercules went about winning trials of
>|>>strength with local chiefs then leaving the administration of the city "in
>|>>trust" for his descendants?
>|>>
>|>
>|>Mythology or not mythology the fact is that Jews were related to this
>|>specific piece of land for 3000+ years , the last 2000 mainly spiritualy
>|>although throughout the ages Jews maintained small communities in cities
>|>like Safed,Tiberias,Hebron and Jerusalem and billages in teh Gallilee.
>|>
>|>You may argue that Israel should return the lands to the Cannanites if
>|>you want to fight ownership. Palestinian Arabs are VERY LATE invaders
>|>occiupiers who have ENORMOUS NERVE to claim anything in this country.
>
>What you are saying is that Jews have occupied that area for approximately 1/3
>of the past three millenia which is as far back as anyone can judge the issue.
>Perhaps you will on this basis support Englands claim for the return of our
>French possessions which have been held for an equal proportion of the time
>since the Romans left?

I think that the case of the Jewish people is so unique so that Comparisons 
fail --> You see Jews have no other land that they have got anything that
resembles rights and freedom from cruel oppression, at best they relied
on the relative kindness and mercy of their hosts. This became more and
more dangerous practice in modern times (Pogroms and the holocaust proves).

I think that the Jews need a state - if there was a better suggestion
than Palestine it would have been great (Uganda was suggested).
Since Plaestine was void of a nation (though not of inhabitants) and
Jews had/have deep feelings and documented rights it seemed (and seem
now) the best option.

I think that the slogan "Land without People for a People without a
Land" was the main engine behind the Choice of the country. However 
the Arabs have "invented" and pampered a new nation out of the blue
to stagger the new initiative of the "foreigners" in the region.

>|>The Arabs that sat here before the Jews came will be welcome as Israeli
>|>citizens (and are welcomed) - they have no national rights here.
>
>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law is
>completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since Soccrates
>was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no nations
>and there are no states, only individuals.
>

I guess you are not aware of the last 200+ years of history (since the
French revolution) - you may think that reality does not exist (nations
/states) - so did the Marxists. Their Utopistic house of cards fell very
noisily recently. Nationalism is a growing trend and unless there will
be a new world oredr soon, they are very relevant.
 
>Phill Hallam-Baker

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
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