Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.bush
From: steeg@cs.toronto.edu ("Evan W. Steeg")
Subject: Re: Anti-religious fanatics (Was Re: School Choice )
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:23:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.143255.25678@anasazi.com> john@anasazi.com writes:
>....
>I also do believe that the founders wanted a Christian America, but
>were reasonable enough to make that the choice of each individual
>rather than to allow laws to enforce it. The Constitution was, after
>all, crafted by a highly christian group of people, and yet they
>were able to keep their religion out of it.

  You might be interested in some quotations (appended).  Also, if you get a 
chance to read some of Ben Franklin's memoirs, you'll be quite shocked at 
some of his ideas, stances, and activities regarding the Judeo-Christian
heritage.

  Basically, the US was founded by *thinkers*, not people who mindlessly
accept whatever prevailing beliefs (about kings and nations *or* about
God and Man) were handed down by their parents or drilled into them
by their preachers or communities.

>
>You arguments are good ones for distrusting extremists of all stripes
>(after all, lots of liberals want to tell ME how to live), but not
>for being "anti-christian."
>

  Exactly.  Though, I might add, the intellectually lazy and almost
sub-primate phenomenon wherein people in every part of the world just
absorb, recite, and spread their own historico-geographically local
version of The Truth is a pernicious form of "extremism" even when not
taken to the "extremes" per se of executions, forced conversions, etc.,
etc.  Few belief systems outside of religion have ever managed to reach
the same level of mind-crushing intellectual and emotional enslavement.
(Though, of course, widespread and deep belief is not necessary for
tyranny when you have enough force to muster and enough excuses, scapegoats,
real or perceived external and internal threats to point to, etc.  Cf.
USSR and Nazi Germany).


  -- Evan

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(Sorry, I lost the name of the person who originally posted these 
elsewhere).


    I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
				Thomas Jefferson 

    The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are
    those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted 
    them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, 
    and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come 
    when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, 
    in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation 
    of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
				Jefferson
				Letter to Adams, Apr 11, 1823.

    [Of Jesus] Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his
    biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct 
    morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and others, 
    again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, 
    charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such 
    contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, 
    therefore, the dross; restore to him the former and leave the latter 
    to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of 
    this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and 
    first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus.
				Jefferson
				Letter to W. Short, 1820.

    I cannot say that I am descended from the bastards of Oliver Cromwell,
    or his courtiers, or from the Puritans who punish their horses for 
    breaking the Sabbath, or from those who persecuted Quakers and burned 
    the witches.
				Mathew Lyon (1746-1822)
				American Patriot and Congressman

    Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
    cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with 
    which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent 
    that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God.  It is a 
    history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. 
				Thomas Paine
				The Age of Reason

    There is not any thing, which has contributed so much to delude mankind
    in religious matters, as mistaken apprehensions concerning supernatural
    inspiration or revelation; not considering that all true religion 
    originates from reason, and can not otherwise be understood, but by the 
    exercise and improvement of it.
				Ethan Allen, American Revolutionary Hero
				Reason, The Only Oracle of Man

    The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion.
				 George Washington and John Adams
				 Diplomatic message to Malta

    He who shall introduce into public affairs the principle of primitive 
    Christianity will change the face of the world.
	                     Benjamin Franklin
        	             Letter to the French Ministry March 1778

     "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments
     had on society? In some instances they have been seen to
     erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil
     authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding
     the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they
     been the guardians of the liberties of the people."
				James Madison
				A Memorial and Remonstrance, 
				addressed to the General Assembly
				of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785.

    This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion
    in it.
				John Adams 
				Letter to Jefferson

    The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized
    learning... And since the Reformation, when or where has existed a 
    Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? [sic]
    The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most 
    yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and 
    applauded.  But touch a solemn truth in collusion with dogma of a sect, 
    though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have 
    disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, 
    and fly into your face and eyes.
				John Adams
				Letter to John Taylor

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or
    no god.  It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
				Thomas Jefferson
				quoted by by Gerard Straub
				"Salvation for Sale"



-- 

Evan W. Steeg (416) 978-5182      steeg@ai.toronto.edu (CSnet,UUCP,Bitnet)
Dept of Computer Science          steeg@ai.utoronto    (other Bitnet)
University of Toronto,            steeg@ai.toronto.cdn (EAN X.400)
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4           {seismo,watmath}!ai.toronto.edu!steeg
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