From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Christening & colonization of the north-east Europe.
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:37:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.121620.21433@nntp.nta.no> stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT) writes:
>In <1992Sep2.135516.22665@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
>writes:
>
>(... about the Teutonic Order ...)
>
>> Finally, Poland and Lithuania grew fed up with the Germans and
>> crushd the armies of the Order in the battle of Tannenberg (the one and only

>The Teutonic Order cannot be called "the Germans", as in the first sentence.
>-- Although the leaders (Grossmeister?) belonged to German nobility,
>   the members came from all sorts of countries.

Hochmeister. According to my one of my source books (The Armies of the Middle
Ages, vol. 2, by Ian Heath, WRG 1984), the brethren knights of the Order had 
to be of German noble ancestry and the brethren sergeants of the had to be
German natives. The brethren knights were knight-monks with the monastic wows
like the brethren sergeants: the confrere knights were members of the Order
but they retained their own coat of arms in battle and did not make the monast-
ic wow. Apart from these the Order hired a great number of adventurers and
crusaders, of which the members came from all sorts of countries, a famous
example being Henry Bolingbroke, the future English king Henry IV. But the
brethren anc confrere knights and sergeants were always German.

>-- At that time the concept of nationality did not yet exist.
>   The Teutonic Order and its opponents were at that time
>   not "German" and "Lithuanian", but "Christian" and "heathen", 
>   or "Grossmeister xxx" and the neighboring dukes.

Die Deutsche Orden des Hospitals der heilige Maria Jerusalems ?
I would say the German-speaking brethren considered themselves as Germans and
as "citizens" of the Ordenstaat.

Also I would say the Lithuanians considered themselves as Lithuanians after 
the unification by Grand Duke Gediminas 1310, and at least after Jagiello 
(Wladyslaw II) 1386.

>-- To interpret the Teutonic Order and its activities
>   as "German superiority" or "German imperialism"
>   has been a favourite play of German and Polish historians some time ago
>   (I wouldn't wonder if Nazi propaganda called the Teutonic Order
>   "the Waffen-SS of the middle ages", as Tuomas ironically wrote),
>   but this is not followed by serious historians any more.

Certainly Sienkiewitz and other quite chauvinistic writers considered the Order
as the first symptom of the German imperialism as well as the Germans before 
the WWI considered the order as the vanguard of the Western civilization.
I do not know whether the Nazis considerd the Order as "the Waffen-SS of the
Middle Ages"; if they did not, it was then my own invention. Anyway, the
comparison is still quite good, since

- the both were the best and most disciplined fighting troops of the era
- the both were quite similar fanatics
- the both employed similar methods of treating the inhabitants of the 
  conquered provinces
- the both showed no mercy for the enemy, fighting or capitulated
- the both consisted of pure-blooded Germans ;)
- the both were the tools of the German Drang nach Osten (yes, they were :)

>Ok, maybe Tuomas Viljanen's remark about "the Germans"
>was also meant ironically.
>In this case take it as an interesting piece of information.

Yes, it was intended to be ironical

>Another issue: I heard that the Teutonic Order still exists,
>maybe under a different name,
>with headquarters in Vienna, or do I mix them up with another order?

Yes, it does. Its military activity is restricted to 20 Bundeswehr high
ranking officers, who must be of noble origin (12 of the conspirators
of the attempted assassination of Hitler 1944 were brethren of the order)
but more important is the non-military (medical) activity of the Order; the 
non-military brethren and sisters work as doctors, nurses and other medical 
personnel under the name of Marians. The purpose of the Order has made a full 
circle: it was originally founded to care the sick crusaders in the Outremer, 
like the Knights of St. John.

>Mechthild.Stoer@nta.no    or   stoer@sc.zib-berlin.de


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
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  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
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