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From: v187ef4y@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick J Crowe)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: FIRST FISHNETS AND SINKERS IN EASTERN N. AMERICA
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:55:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep3.215349.7316@ac.dal.ca>, medusa@ac.dal.ca writes...
>I have recently come across an account by a late fourteenth century
>fisherman from the Shetland or Orkney Islands about his travels in
>the "new world".  He claims that he and some other fishermen were
>washed ashore in an as yet undiscovered land (N. America?) and
>held hostage for many, many years by natives.
[stuff deleted]
>. . .The record of this fisherman's
>story was recorded around the 1390's by an Venetian Captain Zeno
>who was in the service of Sinclair.  Now can anyone tell me what
>the approximate date for the apperarnace of large fishing nets,
>sinkers and floaters in the North American eastern seaboard is?
>Does it confirm what the fisherman said, about introducing these
>devices into this area around the late 1300's.  Can can someone
>suggest some references where I can look up the subject of 
Not always an easy thing to do, but it is the first necessary step.  As for
sinkers, I'm pretty sure they were used in the Lower Great Lakes region 
during the first millenium CE.

Pat Crowe, SUNY at Buffalo
_Spreading Evil, Pat Crowe's Autobiography_  New York (1927)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: The Indus Tradition and the Indo-Aryans
Organization: LLNL
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:10:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.155127.14052@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.222416.24103@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
@ 
@ 	But since the Aryans were very horse-dependent, it would be
@ interesting to see how many horses have been found at Harappan sites.

>Interesting. If horse is the central clue to where the Aryans came from.
>It would put their homeland in central Asia. After all, central asia has
>been the breeding ground for horse riding invaders moving south and
>west several thousands years later. But then there should be evidence of
>the invaders coming south into China as the later invaders. I think the
>Aryan home land are further west than southern Russia. Does anyone
>know where the horses are breed 7000 years? (or whenever the great Aryan
>dispersion took place)

	There is an article on the origin of horseback riding that
appeared in last December's _Scientific American_. The article
described the microscopic examination of the teeth of a horse that had
been buried in a 6000-year-old settlement at Dereivka, in south
Russia. The result: there was wear on some of the horse's teeth that
is typical of wear caused by chomping on a bit. This, along with
antler cheek pieces found at several sites, suggests that the horse
had worn a bit while it was alive, and the only good reason to put a
bit in a horse's mouth is so that the horse can be controlled by a
rider or a vehicle driver. The authors of the article also speculate
about how horseback riding can increase travel distance and military
efficiency, and what that did for the Kurgans; they bring to mind what
happened with the Native Americans who utilized horses that strayed
from European colonists' settlements.

	This result suggests an interesting field of investigation:
archeological equine dentistry.
From: lungtt@gus26.ecn.purdue.edu (Terence T. Lung)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: The Early Church: Female Priests & Same-Sex Unions?
Date: 7 Sep 92 02:30:33 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <JGJ.92Sep1102940@rcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com> jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson) responds to somebody (lost reference sorry):
>
>> I seem to recall reading a newspaper article a year or so ago about
>> team of archaeologists researching the early Christian church...
>> ...But one of their conclusions was
>> that women had served as priests in the early (presumably,
>> pre-Augustine) church, though perhaps "only until enough men were
>> available".
You'll find in McBernie's "The Search for the Twelve Apostles" mention
of the sisters Mary and Martha having gone as far as present day 
Marseilles, France in missionary-roles.  I think that to this day, their
tombs are supposedly there.  The Christian church doesn't get much
earlier than that.  Women were certainly active.  In the Christian church,
how one defines "priest" goes messy with semantics...all who follow Christ
are disciples and called to ministry."Follow me and I will make you fishers
of men."  ..kind of scary if a woman responds to this call ;-)

IMHO, the anti-woman priest bit stems from some respect of whatever
cultures were local to the Biblical writings.  Later, it was probably
propagated by that infamous wave of church wealth and elitism.

>>     Perhaps in the same article, or perhaps elsewhere, was a mention
>> of the discovery (in the Greek colonies in Asia Minor, I think) of a
>> blessing or other ceremony relating to a same-sex union, which might
>> even have predated heterosexual marriage rites.
Now, that's interesting.  Jeff Jackson had some interesting remarks.

Terence
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: The Indus Tradition and the Indo-Aryans
Organization: LLNL
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:24:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.143714.39772@watson.ibm.com> ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.225810.8404@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

@  	There are some interesting cultural differences between the
@  Harappans and the Aryans of the Rig Veda (presumably the oldest of the
@  Vedas):
@  
@  	Harappans		Aryans
@  
@  	Lived in big cities	Were mostly rural
@  	Agricultural		Pastoral
@  	Had a script		Were illiterate
@  	Lots of female deities	Female deities insignificant
@  	Little evidence of war	War a major preoccupation
@  	No clear monarchy	Main rulers: local kings

>If I am not mistaken, these are also characteristics of the Old 
>European agriculturists who fanned out from Turkey, who you 
>think spoke Indo-European. 

	I didn't claim that, although Colin Renfrew has :-)

	The Old Europeans were almost certainly non-IE, just like the
Harappans.

	I guess I should add something about the horse:

	Harappans, Old Europeans: Rare or absent, judging from what
horse bones have been found amongst the numerous other animal bones.

	Aryans: a major cult animal. Consider the royal ritual of the
stallion that was to wander untouched for a year, after which it was
to be sacrificed and the queen was supposed to (seeminly, at least)
have sex with it. There is other evidence of horses as cult animals
elsewhere in the Indo-European world.

>Note that even if we assume that the Harappans were not Indo-Europeans,
>that still does not prove that the Aryans were not in India before Vedic
>times.  The Harappans were ethnically mixed, so perhaps the dominant
>strain was non-Aryan, but there could have been Aryan elements.

	In principle, that is difficult to argue with.

	But since the Aryans were very horse-dependent, it would be
interesting to see how many horses have been found at Harappan sites.

	It is an interesting circumstance that the Vedic villains were
dark-skinned people who were described as being nose-less, a rather
insulting reference to the nose shape of many people of India even
today.

@  	Furthermore, I have a proposed decipherment of part of the
@  Harappan script that claims that Harappan was an early Dravidian
@  language.

>There are so many claimed decipherments of the Harappan script (including
>ones into Sanskrit) that I am not sure this is very convincing.

	That's certainly a good point.

	The article I was referring to appeared in _Scientific
American_ about a decade ago, and I guess I should discuss it in more
detail when I dig it up (nothing like some office archeology :-)
From: v187ef4y@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick J Crowe)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: FIRST FISHNETS AND SINKERS IN EASTERN N. AMERICA
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:54:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bu41H3.3v0@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v187ef4y@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick J Crowe) writes...
>In article <1992Sep3.215349.7316@ac.dal.ca>, medusa@ac.dal.ca writes...
>>I have recently come across an account by a late fourteenth century
>>fisherman from the Shetland or Orkney Islands about his travels in
>>the "new world".  He claims that he and some other fishermen were
>>washed ashore in an as yet undiscovered land (N. America?) and
>>held hostage for many, many years by natives.
>[stuff deleted]
>>. . .The record of this fisherman's
>>story was recorded around the 1390's by an Venetian Captain Zeno
>>who was in the service of Sinclair.  Now can anyone tell me what
>>the approximate date for the apperarnace of large fishing nets,
>>sinkers and floaters in the North American eastern seaboard is?
>>Does it confirm what the fisherman said, about introducing these
>>devices into this area around the late 1300's.  Can can someone
>>suggest some references where I can look up the subject of 

Sorry about this: my screen messed up while I was typing, and appeared to have
had everything still there.  My first line should read:

The first thing to do is check the authenticity of the report.  

or something along that line.
[Pat Crowe]

>Not always an easy thing to do, but it is the first necessary step.  As for
>sinkers, I'm pretty sure they were used in the Lower Great Lakes region 
>during the first millenium CE.
> 
>Pat Crowe, SUNY at Buffalo
>_Spreading Evil, Pat Crowe's Autobiography_  New York (1927)
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: The Indus Tradition and the Indo-Aryans
Date: 7 Sep 1992 22:42:47 -0500
Organization: Pro-nbs.acme.fred.org -- San Diego, Ca (619) 571-0152
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I am very interested in how this topic will develop and have also been
doing some research into it. Just a note: the Uttara Pradesha state in
India has a Bharatiya Janata Party government, and I have read in the
Indian newspapers that high school textbooks in the UP schools are now
giving students information that the Aryan invasion idea propagated for so
long by European Indologists (and their Indian followers) is not very well
supported by evidence and that the best hypothesis is that the Aryan Vedic
culture is indigenous to India. In the latest issue of Science News (whicvh
I loaned to a friend and therefore cannot give the exact citation) there is
a report on a genetic study of European racial-linguistic groups that the
author says supports neither of the 2 currently popular views on the
origins of the Indo-Europeans (Turkey, about 7500 BC or southern Russia,
about 4,500 BC). The author suggests no alternative hypothesis, but it is
interesting that the Vedic histories say that renegade kshatriyas
(warriors) were driven from Bharata-varsha (India) in ancient times and
then migrated to the European countries, where they interbred with native
populations.

Drutakarma Dasa

ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: The Indus Tradition and the Indo-Aryans
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:58:10 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <MURPHYG.92Sep9114933@peplinsk.Software.Mitel.COM> murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy) writes:
>In article <i762402@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org> dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:
: 
:    giving students information that the Aryan invasion idea propagated for so
:    long by European Indologists (and their Indian followers) is not very well
:    supported by evidence and that the best hypothesis is that the Aryan Vedic
:    culture is indigenous to India.
: 
: There is also an article relating to the Aryan invasion myth in the fall
: issue of the Theosophical Society's "The Quest" magazine.  In part of
: the argument, the discovery of the dry river bed by LandSat and the
: dating of the river is compared to Vedic comments from the early period
: where the river is mentioned, and those from later days where it is
: never mentioned.  They ask why invaders would bother to write so much
: about a river that was dry centuries before their arrival, and then
: suddenly stop including the same river in 'sequel' writings.

	I find this argument a non sequitur. Rivers just don't come
with name tags on them. And that includes ones that are now dry.

	For all we know, the Sarasvati River, as some of this theory's
advocates say it's called in the Vedas, could be the Indus River,
which still exists.

	There are some interesting cultural differences between the
Harappans and the Aryans of the Rig Veda (presumably the oldest of the
Vedas):

	Harappans		Aryans

	Lived in big cities	Were mostly rural
	Agricultural		Pastoral
	Had a script		Were illiterate
	Lots of female deities	Female deities insignificant
	Little evidence of war	War a major preoccupation
	No clear monarchy	Main rulers: local kings

	Furthermore, I have a proposed decipherment of part of the
Harappan script that claims that Harappan was an early Dravidian
language. That would fit with the Harappans being pre-Indo-European.
The Indo-Aryan languages, starting with Sanskrit, contain more and
more Dravidian borrowings as times go on, especially for items like
vegetation found in India but not in Central Asia or South Russia (the
Aryans' ultimate homeland according to the Kurgan hypothesis). The
same thing appears to have happened in other Indo-Europeanized areas,
such as Greece, where much of the Mediterranean flora has non-IE
names: hyacinth, narcissus, terebinth, etc.

/Loren
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: kirkm@hotcity.COM (Kirk Marcroft)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Dead Sea Scrolls
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:50:36 PST
Organization: BBS

About a year ago I heard that photo's of the Dead Sea Scrolls were going to be
published. Does any one know any thing about this, is there a book out ?



Any info would be helpful......
Thanks
Kirk Marcroft
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: lwloen@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Larry Loen)
Subject: Beginner Query about Linear A
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:14:27 GMT
Reply-To: lwloen@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester
Keywords: Linear A Decoding

I recall reading somewhere that Linear A remains undeciphered.

Is that true?

If it is, where would I go to gather information about it?  "Go to a
library" is obvious enough, but what books are worthwhile?  My local
library is quite limited; before I trek out of town, it would be nice
to have some idea of what to look for, what to avoid.

Are there copies of manuscripts in machine readable form?


-- 
   Larry W. Loen        |  My Opinions are decidedly my own, so please
                        |  do not attribute them to my employer
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Subject: Re: The Indus Tradition and the Indo-Aryans
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:37:14 GMT
Reply-To: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Organization: IBM TJ Watson Research

In article <1992Sep9.225810.8404@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
|> In article <MURPHYG.92Sep9114933@peplinsk.Software.Mitel.COM>
murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy) writes:
|> : 
|> :                                                         In part of
|> : the argument, the discovery of the dry river bed by LandSat and the
|> : dating of the river is compared to Vedic comments from the early period
|> : where the river is mentioned, and those from later days where it is
|> : never mentioned.
|> 
|> 	I find this argument a non sequitur. Rivers just don't come
|> with name tags on them. And that includes ones that are now dry.
|> 	For all we know, the Sarasvati River, as some of this theory's
|> advocates say it's called in the Vedas, could be the Indus River,
|> which still exists.
I believe (not sure, will check) that there is a discrepancy between the
number of rivers mentioned in the Vedas and the number that actually exist
today.  This is why many people have postulated that there was a river in
Vedic times that no longer exists.

|> 
|> 	There are some interesting cultural differences between the
|> Harappans and the Aryans of the Rig Veda (presumably the oldest of the
|> Vedas):
|> 
|> 	Harappans		Aryans
|> 
|> 	Lived in big cities	Were mostly rural
|> 	Agricultural		Pastoral
|> 	Had a script		Were illiterate
|> 	Lots of female deities	Female deities insignificant
|> 	Little evidence of war	War a major preoccupation
|> 	No clear monarchy	Main rulers: local kings
If I am not mistaken, these are also characteristics of the Old 
European agriculturists who fanned out from Turkey, who you 
think spoke Indo-European. 

Note that even if we assume that the Harappans were not Indo-Europeans,
that still does not prove that the Aryans were not in India before Vedic
times.  The Harappans were ethnically mixed, so perhaps the dominant
strain was non-Aryan, but there could have been Aryan elements.

|> 
|> 	Furthermore, I have a proposed decipherment of part of the
|> Harappan script that claims that Harappan was an early Dravidian
|> language.
There are so many claimed decipherments of the Harappan script (including
ones into Sanskrit) that I am not sure this is very convincing.

|> The Indo-Aryan languages, starting with Sanskrit, contain more and
|> more Dravidian borrowings as times go on, especially for items like
|> vegetation found in India but not in Central Asia or South Russia (the
|> Aryans' ultimate homeland according to the Kurgan hypothesis).
An explanation of this could be that before Ashokan times (and the discovery
of iron) the center of India was very thickly forested and unknown to the
Aryans.  It is commonly accepted that most of India today was relatively
unpopulated before the discovery of iron made it possible to clear the forests
(just like for example the Amazon basin).  

Dinkar Sitaram
From: rcbi27@muvms3.bitnet (DBRUM)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Archaeology dispute, news item
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:32:10 GMT
Organization: Marshall University

In article <1992Sep2.151037.5690@nas.nasa.gov>, wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
> DBRUM writes:
 
> 	In addition, all artifacts will be reburied instead of being kept
> 	for study or museum display, he said.
 
> Does this really mean ALL ARTIFACTS or all human remains.  Reburying 
> human remains is become the common practice in the U.S. these days.

I really don't know. Does sound kind of strange, though. I entered the
whole article verbatum. I can't believe they'd rebury pottery or bracelets
and such. They probably just meant the bones and human remains. ...But then
why would the archaeology guy make such a fuss, if it's a "common practice?"
..But then again he does specify "bones."

It is confusing. I hadn't really noticed that when entering the article;
otherwise I might have done some checking first. If I figure out who to
ask about it--maybe I'll call the local paper--Charleston is long distance
for me--I'll post a clarification.

--danny
-- 
	"Were his solid black square paintings really,
	as the artist claimed, simply neutral, abstract
	compositions devoid of external references and
	meanings?" ***********************************
From: medusa@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: FIRST N.AMERICAN FISHNETS AND SINKERS
Date: 13 Sep 92 22:20:56 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Someone asked for the source for the story of the Orkney fishermen
who shipwrecked on the shores of N. America and were forced to show
the natives how to make and use fishnets and sinker.  The information
came for FRederick J. Pohl's  PRINCE HENRY SINCLAIR.  You can also
check Pohl's THE SINCLAIR EXPEDITION TO NOVA SCOTIA IN 1398 for further
information.  Also, there is a book coming out this October called 
THE SWORD AND THE GRAIL, which examines the validity for the story that
after hearing the Orkadian fisherman's story, Prince Sinclair set off
to find this "new world".  One of the pieces of physical evidence that
is always used as evidence for Sinclair's visit is the carving of a 
medieval Scottish/Orkadian knight carved into a rock outside of Boston,
Mass.  Has anyone out there ever seen this so-called carving or heard of
a date being attributed to it and if so what dating technique was used? 

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: brekshyn@shearson.com (Bohdan Rekshynskyj)
Subject: Re: Roman Swords
Reply-To: brekshyn@shearson.com
Organization: Ordinatio
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:39:41 GMT

In article 1@scivax.stsci.edu, gelwasser@scivax.stsci.edu () writes:
>Can anyone tell me if there are any well preserved examples of Roman
>short swords (the Gladus) on display any where.

Friendly correction:  GLADIUS

>Thanks,
>Perry 
>





=====================================================================
 
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
 
Consultant                     
 
Compuserve:  72576,1754


                              
All promulgations are my own.  No corporate entity has authorization
to represent me.
 
Imprimatur.						Nihil obstat.
 
=====================================================================


Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: gelwasser@scivax.stsci.edu
Subject: Roman Swords
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:47:01 GMT

Can anyone tell me if there are any well preserved examples of Roman
short swords (the Gladus) on display any where.
Thanks,
Perry