HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Gay attitudes...
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:21:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

In article <1992Oct12.231748.17882@newsgate.sps.mot.com> weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver) writes:

>This letter appeared in the Oct 12 column of Ann Landers...

>Dear Ann Landers:
>   I'm a 34 year-old gay male professional, in the closet and 
>tired of it.
>   I watched the press coverage of the parade for Gay Pride Week,
>and as usual, the men representing the gay community were sashaying
>around in wigs, dresses, chaps and harnesses.
>   Like most gays, I'm thoroughly disgusted with the way we are
>portrayed by Hollywood and the media. To be fair, however, a large
>part of the blame must be placed the shoulders of a small minority
>of the homosexual community. I refer to the effeminate, limp-wristed,
>nasal-voiced queens who jump in fromt of the cameras and make a 
>spectacle of themselves.
>   Those wierdos do not represent me or any of my gay friends. 
>Moreover, they are the reason homosexuals are considered freaks and
>"queens" and must hide their sexuality. Small wonder average people
>are reluctant to give gays equal rights. They don't want men who 
>wear wigs, dresses and high heels teaching their kids and fighting
>in their countries armies. And who can blame them?
>   Stable people, gay and straight, do not flaunt their sexuality 
>and private lives. So please, "girls," keep it in the bedroom and
>let the rest of us be judged for who we are and not by the distorted
>image you portray. You deny all of us the opportunity to be accepted
>as decent, constructive members of the community, which we are.
>       --Sabotaged in Calgary

>Is this a common attitude in the gay community?

I have a number of gay friends, and one of my coveners is gay. All
of these men are IMHO very mainstream in their attitudes and appearances.

Eric
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus was a man, was Is it Christian values or chavinism?
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:19:14 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-141092193710@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|In article <71232@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
|Pitts) wrote:
|> |What I've read from the Bible Jesus was a man until Paul made him
|> |a God :-).
|> 
|> In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God,
|> ... the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.  (John 1:1-14)
|> 
|> Let us look at the prophecy of Jesus coming and who (John the Baptist) 
|> would come before him and who it is actually that was to come (the Lord.)
|
|Richard, as usually I'm quite curious to see how you are trying to
|map that in the beginning there was the Word, to the statement that
|Jesus is God. It clearly demonstrates the facts that humans have 
|a very good creative mind, indeed!

No, it doesn't - read John chapter 1 and see who you thing the Word is,
please.  Let us know what you think.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:29:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.142839.20827@csrd.uiuc.edu> g-skinner@uiuc.edu writes:
>>> It's not necessary to guess.  I stated that the post relates to the
>>> criticism that most "evidence" for "Jesus" comes from believers.
>>And the criticism is actually valid.
>In the spirit of the parody, then, we can levy a like criticism
>against those who tell us that Idaho is a state.  Most (if not all)
>the "evidence" we have seen for "Idaho" comes from believers.

In some trivial sense, it's true that all the evidence for Idaho comes from
believers--but then, all the evidence for a round Earth comes from believers,
too, in that sense.  What "all the evidence comes from believers" really
must mean, unless the phrase is to be totally trivial, is that the evidence
is something I would not consider evidence unless I believe first.

You don't have to believe in Idaho to buy a plane ticket there.  You do have
to believe the Bible before you can use the Bible as evidence.  The Idaho
evidence "comes from believers" in the sense that someone who doesn't believe
in Idaho probably isn't going to sell plane tickets to go there, but not in
the sense that you already have to believe in Idaho before plane flights are
any good to you as evidence.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: non-witness witnesses
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:53:01 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <ksand-061092184318@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
}In article <70217@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
}Pitts) wrote:
}> |Any number of the numerous bystanders that were around when "Jesus"
}> |presumably performed his feats.
}> 
}> How many bystanders do you know rush home and write about what they
}> just saw?  Not many - people close to a movment write about it, along
}> with those who are opposed to it, in general.
}
}I would do it! Immediately, it would be the biggest thing I would have
}ever witnessed in my whole life. For the rest of my life I would tell
}it and re-tell it. I don't think miracles such as rising people from the
}dead are taken for granted, exactly. 

I find it interesting that we get simultaneously:
1. Witnesses to some event are presented as proof of the event.
2. That none of the witnesses seem to have recorded that they saw any such
thing is discarded.

Such doublethink is astounding.

Example:  That a multitude saw Jesus after the resurrection is suppose to be
proof of the resurrection, yet none of them seemed to think that it was
important enough to write home about.  Non-witness witnesses.
From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Mormons, a different Jesus
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:02:17 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.


Mormon Archeology:

    Iron:   Book of Mormon, Nephi 5:15
                            Jaron 1:8

    Brass:  Book of Mormon, Ether 10:23
                            Mosiah 8:7-10


"American Archeology and Anthropology":

   by Franklin S. Harris, Jr, from a revised
   abstract of a paper read at the 5th Annual 
   Symposium on the Archeology of the Scriptures,  
   held Nov-Dec 1961:

" . . . But the apparent absence of iron metallurgy
in the New World before the coming of the Europeans
has been a point frequently made by Book of Mormon
critics, since the Book of Mormon speaks of iron-
working amongs its peoples in ancient America (working
in iron as well as gold, silver, and "brass" (or
bronze, by true metallurgical processes) . . .
Yet virtually no evidence of iron-working has appeared
in the important Mesoamerican area (and in fact no
evidence of metallurgy at all in this area in the
"Preclassic" or Book of Mormon period."


"Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon", 1980
National Museum of Natural History
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION:


   "Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the
New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of
unsmelted meteoric iron).  Native copper was worked
used in various locations in pre-Columbian times,
but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico
and the Andean region, where its occurrence in 
late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper,
and their alloys, but not iron."


----

Mormons, I have about 100-200 pages of stuff of hard
documentation from secular as well as Mormon sources
that will upset you.  I want it to upset you.  I want
the real Holy Spirit to talk to you and convince you
that you are on the wrong track.  Do not cling to
false doctrine.  Stick to what is true.  Test everything.
Seek and cling to the real Jesus Christ.  He will
open the door if you knock on it.


Sincerely,



Brian Ceccarelli
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: "Mr. Gomes, I've Re-Read My Bible"
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 01:49:47 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <VNXLsB1w165w@topcat>, topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom 
Albrecht) writes:
> relations with them" (v. 5).  The word translated "relations" is the Hebrew
> word yadha ("to know").  The word yadha appears nearly fifty times in the
> book of Genesis and in at least seven instances it means sexual relations
> (Gen. 4:1, 17, 25; 19:5, 8; 24:16; 38:26; cp. Num. 31:17, 18, 35; Judges
> 11:39; 19:22, 25; 1 Sam. 1:19).

The writer Mr. Albrecht quotes is only telling you part of the truth here.  In
the other places where _yadha_ is used to mean sexual relations, the phrase
"know carnally" is used.  This would be the only occurrence of the use of
_yadha_ alone to refer to intercourse.

But wait, there's more.  This would also be the only place where the word
_yadha_ was used to describe homosexual intercourse.  Elsewhere, the word use
is _shakab_.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Joseph a true latter-day prophet
Date: 15 Oct 92 06:23:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1584@esl.ESL.COM>, markwc@barney.esl.com (Mark Christiansen) writes...

[...]

>I still am searching for a quote from Mr. Smith that says that
>his sister Lucy moved to Manchester.  Since the consistency
>argument hinges on some sister named Lucy, I'd like to see
>where Mr. Smith mentioned her.

Mark,

	In the section, _Joseph Smith --- History_, in the _Pearl of 
Great Price_ (part of the LDS canon) we find:

JSH 1:3 I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and
five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor
county, State of Vermont . . . My father, Joseph Smith, Sen., left the
State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in
the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In
about four years after my father's arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his
family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario--

JSH 1:4 His family consisting of eleven souls, namely, my father, Joseph
Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was
Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (who died November
19th, 1823, in the 26th year of his age), Hyrum, myself, Samuel Harrison,
William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy.

JSH 1:5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester,
there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the
subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became 
general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole 
district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united 
themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small 
stir and division amongst the people, some crying "Lo, here!" and others, 
"Lo, there!" Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the 
Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.


	Lucy was born July 18, 1821. She was one of the eleven souls
that moved to Manchester. Two years later, there was a revival. This 
would place the revival in 1823. Yet the date given for the First 
Vision is in 1820.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: "Evidence" for "Jesus" comes from believers
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:13:59 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <1992Oct16.214452.2565@csrd.uiuc.edu>,
skinner@sp94.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) wrote:
> 
> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
> 
> >By making that claim, you are also making the _implicit_ claim that searching
> >for God makes a _difference_ in whether or not you get food and clothes.
> >This implicit clam is _false_, and all the counterexamples proposed, such as
> >a billion Chinese, certainly _do_ serve to disprove it.
> 
> Hardly.  A claim, even a conversational one, does not implicitly
> include its inverse.  I will offer a simple proof to counter this
> mistaken notion.

You know, you could define all kinds of claims, and state that the
inverse does not imply. However your earlier claim that searching
for God implies food and shelter is already seriously flawed. So I do
agree that the inverse is possibly flawed as well, or is it? The
inverse is:
Not searching God implies food and shelter?

As it looks it's still garbage, so the original statement is just 
a pile of logical trash.

> The latter is obviously not true.  Therefore our supposition is false.
> It follows that a claim does not include its inverse.

Unfortunately we are more interested in your claim than issues
dealing with inverse statements. Could we please stick to this original
claim, thanks? I'm especially interested to know why it does not 
make sense for one billion Chineese.

Kent
It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that
virginity could be a virtue.  -- Voltaire
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:26:59 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller) writes:

>>If what you've quoted is essentially the OCA initiative, I'd vote for it.
>>Sounds reasonably moral.  The right to sexual perversion is not quaranteed
>>by the Constitution ... or the Bible.
>>
>
>That's true...but the right to freedom from hatred is guaranteed by the
>constitution...

No doubt this is what our government schools are teaching our young people
these days, but, problem is, I can't seem to find that "right" anywhere in
my copy of the Constitution.  Our founding fathers (tm) had better sense
than to suggest that government could outlaw hatred, or guarantee the
"right" to be free from it.  More sense than some modern liberal
do-gooders, at least.

Besides, what does hatred have to do with the OCA initiative?  The fact
that some fringe folks in Oregon may be perpetrating violence and hatred
against homosexuals is no reason to suggest that homosexuals should be
accorded special political treatment as a protected minority.  They should
not.  Homosexuality is not a condition, it's a sin.

"Skin color is a benign, non-behavioral characteristic.  Sexual
 orientation is perhaps the most profound of human behavioral
 characteristics. Comparison of the two is a convenient but invalid
 argument."

                                        Colin Powell,
                                        chairman of the JCS

--
Tom Albrecht
From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Mormons, a different Jesus
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:04:44 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.


Mormon Archeology:

    Wheat:    Book of Mormon, Mosiah 9:9


The Maya and their Neighbors:

    by Ralph Linton, Ph.D.  Professor of Anthropology
    Columbia University.

    " . . . the introduction of wheat and of
European methods of cultivation have opened to
agricultural settlements thousands of square
miles in North America which were not available
to Indian groups raising maize by aboriginal methods."

-----

Mormons, I have about 100-200 pages of stuff of hard
documentation from secular as well as Mormon sources
that will upset you.  I want it to upset you.  I want
the real Holy Spirit to talk to you and convince you
that you are on the wrong track.  We all make mistakes.
Please reevaluate and test the Mormon doctines to see
if their true.  At least test the ones I am showing
you on this net.  Do not cling to false doctrine. 
Stick to what is true.  Test everything.  Seek and cling
to the real Jesus Christ.  He will open the door when 
you knock on it.


Sincerely,



Brian Ceccarelli
 





     
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:17989 alt.atheism:18738
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Saturday, 10 Oct 1992 02:27:10 CDT
From: David James Alexander Hanley <U55870@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: All you need is SLACK! was Stop thinking? was Why I am an atheist
 <1992Oct9.143110.12414@news.yale.edu> <fTIGXoK@quack.sac.ca.us>


  See, the point is to come up with your own interesting jargon and
rhetoric.  NOT to copy stuff word-for-word from the book.  Remember
reading something about every member being different?  Well, if we all
recite passages from the book non-stop we'd just be a bunch of pathetic
losers instead of the future world rulers we are.  You need to do
lots more 'frop.

Reverand Cockroach
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Any Protestant Religions similar to LDS?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:03:25 GMT

In article <92288.150741IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, IK20050@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes:
> I was wondering if there were any Protestant religions that
> run their services like an LDS church, i.e., a meeting where the
> gospel is preached for an hour, then a bible study/sunday school
> afterword.  What I am looking for is:
> 
> 1.  The Bread and Water/Juice/whatever are blessed and distributed.
> 2.  No real organized clergy who gives a sermon...just different
>     people in the congregation give a talk each week...a very informal
>     atmosphere.
> 3.  Tithing.
> 4.  Various church activities to get involved with during the week,
>     such as Bible studies, community outreach projects, picnics,
>     helping the homeless, etc.
> 5.  Nobody cares if you show up in a t-shirt and jeans.
> 6.  Everyone is warm friendly and loving.
> 
I think the charasmatic movement offers all of those. Just be
careful that you find one which doesn't emphasize legalisms,
they are out there.
Charasmatic churches are identified best from the newpaper section
under "churches", with sub-heading of non-denominational. some say
charasmatic.

Most protestant churches offer all except #2. Most have a Pastor
who gives sermons.

Also, you might want to check out the Quakers or Friends as they
are sometimes called. I'm not sure if they have communion(#1).
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians? (Was: WANTED Former LDS,...)
Date: 13 Oct 92 02:02:07 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <Oct.10.16.08.38.1992.17649@geneva.rutgers.edu> hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:
>tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>
>> Don't worry about it, Mark Fuller has never claimed that he was a Christian
>> except by inuendo. He claims to to be a full fledge JW. and since every
>> execept the JW's wont except them as christians
>
>May I ask that we PLEASE not have a replay of Are Mormons Christians
>with Mormon changed to JW?


Mark:

Are you in fact a JW?  Or have we caught Kermit in yet another bold faced
lie?

I am curious to know, one of the two has to be true!
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Gay attitudes...
Date: 17 Oct 92 03:42:57 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Do they make a washing powder called Caliban Automatic?

In article <ldtt96INNppl@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>Based on my experience, I think that the "flaunters" are a minority
>who make everybody look bad.

Quite the opposite, darling, they make us look *fabulous*.
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul"   \/
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:50:17 GMT

In article <b8ov025z25kM01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
> In article <ldj573INN8qb@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
> 
[ME]
> >>Do you recall my posting what your prophets taught? It matters little
> >>to me what you believe. The important part is what the prophets(LDS)
> >>taught. The importance bearing on their displacement of christianity
> >>by revelation. When the revelation is shown to be in error, the 
> >>standard LDS response is they were speaking as men, and not prophets:-)
> >
[Frank Farkas]
> >Thank you for your second honest response, that is that you don't care at
> >all what I or any other LDS thinks. Barry cares only about his interpretations
> >and what he thinks. I wonder where I got the idea that anti-mormons are
> >closed minded.
> 
[Tony Rose]
> That is not what Barry said!  HE didn't say that what mattered was his
> interpretation of what was said.  He said,  what matters is what THEY
> meant by what they said!  It doesn't matter how anyone interprets it,
> what matters is what was meant when the person said it or wrote it! ANy
> other interpretation is wrong!

Thank you. Some of the LDS posters do little to bolster my confidence
they can interpret anything correctly.
Frank or Jason can offer their beliefs which sound more protestant than
mormon, but that's not what I'm concerned with. I am concerned with what
their prophets teach and taught in the past in which they attempt to
interpret For christians(by revelation)what christians should believe,
and how they(christians)lost something(the secret teachings).

barry--