From: andyw@meaddata.COM (Andy Welter)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: andyw@meaddata.COM
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:19:44 GMT

[Excessive included text trimmed.  --CTM]

Please read my statements more carefully before assuming I'm an insensetive
pig...

>>>>When you look at things like skydiving, whitewater rafting, bungee
>>>>jumping, sports you can get hurt playing, etc, men seem to be more
>>>>tolerant of a given level of risk than women would be. ___WHEN YOU
>>>>COUPLE THAT ATTITUDE WITH A SITUATION WHERE THERE REALLY IS A
>>>>DIFFERENCE IN SAFETY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN___(walking in bad
>>>>neighborhoods) you end up with a really big diffence in your
>>>>perceived level of safety.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure that making a comparison between the fear of injury
>>>from sporting activities, and the fear of injury which results from
>>>acts of violence is legitimate.
>>
>>The comparison was meant to illustrate that given the same level of
>>danger, most men are less fearful of a situation than most women
>>are.
>
>If that is what the comparision was meant to illustrate, the wrong
>analogy was picked, then.
...
>If ones wishes to draw the conclusion that given the
>same level of danger that one group is less fearful than another, you
>should have both of them go bungee jumping.

If you read the first statement, I do have both sexes going bungee
jumping...

"When you look at things like skydiving, whitewater rafting, bungee
jumping, sports you can get hurt playing, etc, men seem to be more
tolerant of a given level of risk than women would be."

>>But don't alot of studies show that most violence against women is
>>by someone they already know?  I don't think _all_ the difference in
>>fear of being out at night is based on real differences in personal
>>safety.
>
>You "don't think"?  In other words, you don't trust the reports of
>women who go through it.  Where are your "most reports?"  How do you
>define "most violence?"

By most violence I mean greater than 50% of murders and rapes...  And
by most studies I mean every study that I have heard that addresses
the topic says that most victims of murder and rape know their
assailent.

>>Society as a whole has to work on making the streets safer.  But
>>women who are mad because men can go out at night and not be afraid
>>have to realize that some of that difference is simply a difference
>>in attitude.
>
>How?

I dunno, If I knew that I might be running for mayor or police chief.

>>But if you are more afraid on the streets at night because you don't
>>think you can defend yourself, it is fair to say "take a self
>>defense class".  The difference in attitudes and feelings is your
>>responsibility.  The
>
>This doesn't wash; it sounds like you are trying to deny any
>responsibility that you have for the consequences of your actions on
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you saying that I have raped, assalted or threatened someone on
the street?  Are you saying that I have made leering comments at women
without regard for how that may have made them feel?  I have done none
of the above, and no where in this posting did I say that I have or
have the right to do so.

Are you assuming that because I am a man I have to assume guilt for
what every other man has done?

>other people.  Human beings are mental and physical creatures.  Why
>do you admit the validity of physical damage but not mental damage?
>Are you suggesting that there is a gene on the part of the X
>chromosome that we have that you don't that causes women to
>spontaneously get scared at night of parking lots? ...

I don't know, is it nature or nurture that seems to give women a
different attitude towards personal risk.  Or am I wrong completely,
and there is not a real difference in attitudes towards personal risk.

That is one thing I was trying to find out... what are other people's
experiences about attitudes towards risk.  I used the thrill sport
examples as a control group in my example...

Bungee jumping and skydiving are just as risky for women as they are
for men.  _If_ women in general have a different perception of that
risk _then_ men do, it is reasonable to assume that _some_ of the fear
of walking alone at night is due to that difference.

>What to you is real and measurable?  Why do you not trust the statements
>of women as indicators of what is "real" and "measurable"?  I don't

Because I know that perceived level of danger absolutly does vary by
person.  I don't mind the risk of skydiving and whitewater rafting...
My wife does.  (I probably should be more concerned about personal
safety, and maybe my wife worries more than she should, but that is
besides the point.)

_IF_ that difference is true for most men and women, _THEN_ there is a
difference between real and perceived danger for most men and women.

>know if this is in your unconscious mind, but this attitude can
>indicate that fact that you think that something that a woman thinks
>or perceives is not real and measurable simply because it isn't
>perceived also by a man.  I'm sorry, but there are things in this
>society that treats the two so dofferently that a woman will see that
>a man might be blind to and vice versa.
>
>I repeat, why do you not consider the statements and perceptions of
>women to be "real" or "measurable"?

I repeat, there is a difference between what what is real and what is
perceived for both men and women.

|Andrew Welter	     |  All views are mine and not |      (513) 865-6822
|Mead Data Central   |    that of my employer      |      pd&o-ps-ts-dsp
|P.O. Box 933        |                             |     andyw@meaddata.com
|Dayton, Ohio  45401 |          	           | ...!uunet!meaddata!andyw


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