HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pc@linus.mitre.org (Melissa P. Chase)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: This wonderful connection (was a thread in memory of Rob)
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:46:03 GMT
	<1992Aug19.224514.11217@vpnet.chi.il.us>
	<1992Aug20.174056.7181@panix.com>
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA

In article <1992Aug20.174056.7181@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:

   lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) writes:
    >    After reading all the eulogies to Rob, I can only say I wish I'd
    >    been as fortunate as those who knew him personally.  I read his
    >    posts, even sent him mail a time or two, but that's all.

   Sometimes that's all it takes to make the connection.  

	. . .

   I can't even do a meaningful partial ordering on the basis of how
   much time I've spent actually conversing with some of the people
   I've met, and there's no correlation that I can tell between the
   amount of correspondence I have with someone and the way the
   conversation flows in person.

   There are even a couple of people I've never reached in email, and
   probably never followed up to on motss, who are nonetheless very
   much part of my sense of who's here, and whose absence I would
   feel in some "disproportionate" degree.


Interaction with others, whether electronic, in person, or a
combination and the way it affects us, is difficult to fathom.  There
are people I see every day with whom I feel less connected than with
people I've only interacted with electronically.  I never met Rob.  I
never posted in response to any of his postings, nor sent him email.
Yet, I've read *.motss on and off over the years (whenever I can find
the time to wade through it) and Rob was always a presence for me.
And his death affected me deeply.  And I feel his absence in
soc.motss.

I've wondered about the way we touch and are touched by each other,
and how it doesn't really correlate with the amount of or kind of
interaction since last year when a good friend (a woman in her early
thirties) died suddenly of a heart attack.  After Carol moved to New
York, I used to see her once or twice a year at her sister's parties
up in the Boston area.  But her death has affected me more profoundly
than the death of any other friend or relative (fortunately my nearest
and dearest are all still here).  Not surprising, perhaps, because at
one time we were very close.  What surprised me is that Kathy (my
SO), who met Carol only twice (at some of the afore-mentioned
parties), was affected almost as much as I was.  I guess that during
those encounters Carol revealed something of herself that Kathy
responded to very deeply.

So even when we consider only face to face encounters it's difficult
to understand what it takes to connect with someone.  Electronic
encounters just add to the complexity.

	Penny

--
UUCP:  { ... }!linus!pc 
INTERNET:  pc@mitre.org
From: kenj@kambo.wpd.sgi.com (Ken ``Blackfur'' Jones)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Question about non-rights laws (OR:9 CO:2)
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:00:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA

John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu writes:

>The actual amendment has no comma after the word assemble.  This seems to imply
>that there is no right to assemble outside of assembling to petition the
>government.  

>One would hope that the right to assembly in other cases would be one of those
>powers reserved to the people in Article X of the Constitution.   

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court these days seems more inclined
towards a "strict interpretation" of the Constitution.  Meaning any
right not explicitly stated in the Constitution wasn't intended by
the "Founding Fathers," and, therefore, does not exist.

- Ken
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:52:24 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

Wait a minute... is he describing *ME*?!

>To me, "Gay" means an apolitical white man in his middle thirties with
>a clone moustache. He wears nice jeans (with the crotch worn by
>sandpaper), goes to the bars to hang out with his friends and has
>exquisite taste in furniture.

white man.......yes
thirties........yes
moustache.......yes
jeans...........when I'm in the mood, but sandpaper is sooo uncomfortable
bars/friends....you bet! when I'm in a communal mood
furniture.......of course
politics........I don't scream on street corners (nothing wrong with that)
                 but I do vote and try to educate straight friends on the
                 necessity of change.

So... I guess he *could* be describing me.  Except...

>To me, "Queer" means a young androgynous person of any race in his or
>her early 20s. He wears slightly beaten jeans, bright white t-shirts
>that say "I'm a faggot", and a black leather jacket with black on
>orange stickers in Antique Olive Bold. She wears black denim pants, a
>dark loose shirt, and a black leather jacket with black on orange
>stickers in Antique Olive Bold. He or she goes to protests to hang out
>with his or her friends, doesn't own furniture but has great taste in
>music.

This describes some of my best friends... But *they* don't draw such
divisive lines between the two "groups" you define here.

>That's the extreme personal stereotypes. 

You said it.

> On to the real reasons why
>"queer" is different from "gay".

>[stupid comparisons deleted]

>gay is a lifestyle
>queer is a philosophy - we have our own literature, our own literary
>  analysis, our own political understanding.

In other words, queer describes only you and your circle of friends?
I don't think so...

You see, I'm queer.

>I agree that "queer" is a fashion, but it's a fashion that reflects a
>new time.

If that's true, it will pass quickly and fade from memory; which is not
what this movement is about.

>Is "queer" postmodern?

Who cares?

>-- 
>                __
>nelson@reed.edu \/       This is the time, and this is the record of the time

Nelson, I normally enjoy your posts; but this time, you've shown the tendency 
to stereotype, and you've written off the life experiences and struggles of
everyone here over 30.  Now, what's wrong with this picture?


-jeff  (queer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: need good bible arguments AGAINST the anti-gay passages
From: carlton@husc10.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:26:12
 <CARLTON.92Aug21215129@scws1.harvard.edu> <1992Aug22.030829.6946@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu's message of 22 Aug 92 03:08:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.030829.6946@cis.ohio-state.edu>, amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
>in article <CARLTON.92Aug21215129@scws1.harvard.edu>
>carlton@scws1.harvard.edu (david carlton) writes, about peter gomes,
>undoing homophobic wielders of the bible, in the new york times:

>> And, one might add, he is gay.

> pleased as i am to hear that excellent people are queer, i am
> always a bit saddened to hear "and (s)he is gay" appended right
> after someone's defense of our rights, as if only queers would stand
> up for them.  

As Steve has already kindly pointed out, there's a lot more behind his
being gay for us Harvard types than those who aren't connected with
the University could be expected to know.  (Yet another reason not to
have a trigger finger on the followup key - if you wait a bit,
somebody may well say what you wanted to say, only better.)

I think that I would probably take issue with the above anyways,
though.  Whether or not somebody points out that Peter Gomes is gay,
the fact is that he is.  It is the current sad state of affairs that
queers are a lot more likely to stand up for our rights than others;
but while not mentioning that Peter Gomes is gay might give the
illusion that we have a another straight supporter, or rather it won't
destroy that illusion, it is in this case only an illusion.  It really
annoys me to, say, read in the introduction to a scholarly work on
Greek homosexuality that the author is straight but is fortunate in
feeling no disgust at any act between consenting adults (or words to
that effect) and to realize that that work probably wouldn't have had
the affect that it did without that sentence; but it's still true.

At any rate, I didn't say what I did because of the above.  I just
wanted to point out to members of our family who weren't aware of it
already that Gomes was also a member of our family.  That's all.

david carlton
carlton@husc.harvard.edu

       My mind is making ashtrays in Dayton....
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: mandatory service (was Re: Metzenbaum introduces Senate bill to end military ban)
Date: 12 Aug 92 06:17:10 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <ROBERTL.92Aug11210033@luciano.Stanford.EDU> robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.033954.28682@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>
>   In article <1358@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:
>   >jojo writes:
>   >>I think everyone should serve in the army for a year unless they are
>   >>a concientious objector in which case they are forced to fill
>   >>potholes in Boston roads for a few months.
>   >Sounds OK to me.
>
>   there's a word for this system. It's called slavery.
>
>I think that instead of requiring public service, it could be
>rewarded.  That is, those who help out by doing some public service
>are thereby entitled to significantly larger transfer payments from
>the state if and when needed.  Transfer payments to people able to do
>public service who have choosen not to would be reduced or eliminated.

I think it should be more immediate than that, like the "G.I. bill"
that pays for four years of college and $330 per month (or something
like that). Of course, this is all predicated on some changes; I
wouldn't wish a year of servitude to George Bush on anyone....

On the other hand, we could let the people in who want to join the
military, pay for college for those who want that, and have a jobs 
program for the rest.

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:37:01 GMT

shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

>[]
>This morning on the "Today" show, Katy Couric got a young
>gay Republican delegate, Ginny Appuzzo, and the chair of
>the Republican Conservative Coalition (Bob Buzzell?)
>together for a little chat about gay men and lesbians in
>the Republican Party (sorry, all you bisexuals, you really
>don't exist).  The gay Republican said that Bush is actually
>a moderate who has been swayed by the radical Christian
>right minority and that the platform doesn't really reflect
>the views of most Republicans.  He also said, however, that
>the gay delegates got together and decided not to endorse
>Bush.  Ginny Appuzzo made the point that the Republican
>Party is the party of death death death.
Ginny Appuzzo is most DEFINITELY *not* a Republican delegate for anything.
She is Mario Cuomo's connection to the lesbian and gay political population
of New York State and ex-head of the National Gay Task Force.

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735.  ``D.C. in 93!''
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
"Dick--my bottom hurts just thinking about it!" - MADONNA, _Dick Tracy_ sndtrck
From: msimpson@spdcc.com (Michael L. R. Simpson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What's libertarianism?
Date: 13 Aug 92 05:10:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug13.051022.2925
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Custom Training Institute, Los Angeles CA


	The discussion of libertarianism is certainly an interesting
topic.  I don't see any conflict between my homosexuality and my
libertarianism.  However, in following this thread, I haven't seen any
a part of the discussion that is peculiar to homosexuality.  Most
[Ll]ibertarians I know range from agnostic to enthusiastic on the
subject of homosexuality, but they're all united in a belief that the
State (substitute other levels of elected government as needed) doesn't
have any business condoning, sanctioning or opposing homosexuality. [Or
heterosexuality, for that matter -- but that wasn't on the list.]
	Previous discussion of libertarianism in soc.motss have gone
nowhere fast, but I'm always willing to entertain a private e-mail
discussion on "Libertarianism and Homosexuality:  Do We Have To Choose?"
(or other humorously pedantic topic of one's choice).

Mike Simpson
msimpson@spdcc.com
--
From: ted9e@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Thomas Edward Doyle)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the gay male voice
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:38:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: murdoch.1992Aug13.193832.3623
Organization: University of Virginia

Since my voice sounds a lot different on tape than it does to my ears
coming from inside my head, I am really curious to hear someone
describe in, not excrutiating, but at least passible good detail, said
voice.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: swc@fig.citib.com (Steve Carpenter)
Subject: Olympic Sponsorship
Originator: swc@swcdev
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:13:32 GMT


Watching the Olympics this year was quite difficult for me.  Everytime a 
comercial would come on by an 'Official Olympic Sponsor' my blood pressure
would rise to astronomical values.  When considering how much money is spent
by these companies for a 30 second comercial during the Olympics, plus the
cost of the team support to become an official sponsor, multiplied by the
number of comercials over the entire 2 weeks, multiplied by the number of
official sponsors ... etc etc.; All the while, some of us are running to the
hospital to visit friends, or taking experimental medications, or going to
memorial services or going to a therapist to help us deal with all this.

... and the money continues to flow. However, not towards AIDS research
or to PWA assistance.  Is it really more important to have a swimmer come
home with a gold medal?

My point is,  these companies HAVE money, and have no problem spending it on
events that will give them tremendous recognition. Hence, up the sales of their
products.  Perhaps we could come up with an idea that would promote these
companies products, etc, for their funding AMFAR or PWA support services.

It's a stretch, but it is feasable.

Idea's anyone??

 
-- 

Steve Carpenter                                 B0 f- t+ c+ k+(+) g++ s h  
5 Jane St.  New York, NY  10014-1934
(212) 691-8547                                  CIS: 70313,122
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:46:21 GMT

In article <m=!n=+m.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>I'd prefer to think that people like John Dorrance and Elf Sternberg are
>the wave of the future. 

Elf?  He's *26*, for fuck's sake!  EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!  Antediluvian, as
far as the instigator of this thread's concerned.

				Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 07:21:30 GMT



In article <1992Aug20.012058.5470@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

>Mlle dyer, mlle hughes, & mlle twpierce:

	what is it about calling someone a woman that is
	inherently an insult again?

	mlle succop
	asuccop@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Gay names
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 10:00:43 GMT


In article <1992Aug22.035132.22858@quantime.co.uk>
roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:

>In article <1992Aug21.140916.3978@macc.wisc.edu>,
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>> Having had major love affairs with (in order) Louis, David,
>> Alan, Arvid, Allyn, Don, Dean, Tom, Ron, Steve, Steve,
>> Steve, and Roger,

>Oh!  Have we started already?

His initials are RP, as a matter of fact.

>> ... I spot no gay names in there.

>The only Rogers I've known in the last ten years have been gay.
>But in films and on television,
>the name Roger seems to be reserved for villains,
>slimy heterosexual philanderers, and nerds.

This Roger could be characterized as villain, philanderer,
and nerd.  He is, however, the most gorgeous creature I've
ever known (saw him just yesterday) and he's the heir to a
$4 billion fortune.  I'd marry him again, not for love (I've
done that enough for an entire lifetime) but for the money.

>> ...  Besides the name Jess, though hardly the present writer,
>> is pretty butch, I think.

>Not in Scotland, it's not. :-)

Really (because we are the Scottish variety of Andersons,
not the Scandinavian sort)?  Lordie, I felt so at home in
Scotland during my visit last year!  And the men, oh honey,
the men!

>ObNonSequitur: Where *are* all these wasps coming from?
>I've closed the window, trapping three in the room,
>and there are eight more trying to batter their way in.
>And why do they only plague me between 2 and 4am?

Are you drinking soft drinks?  They make for sugar over
quite a distance, I think.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Homosexual Privilege
Keywords: naughty more naughty really naughty
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:39:14 GMT

grendel@uhuru.uchicago.edu (Cliff Winnig) wrote: 
->ryerson.schwark writes
->> Boy, bend over and I will give so many inches of happy homo privelege
->> that you'll grunt like a pig.  :-)
->
->Grandmama, I'm shocked!  You didn't make that offer to the rest of us when  
->we were at the .con! ;-)

there's probably a good reason for that.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: Re: gay liberation
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: *you* had bad sources of information?
Organization: out in linguistics
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:42:35 GMT

well, for some years *my* only sources of information about what it
was like to be gay were the works of john rechy and _last exit to
brooklyn_.  the combination of intense homoerotic desire (which
aroused me) and loathing of the homosexual condition (which dismayed
and disturbed me) depicted in these books delayed my coming-out
process by several years and fueled my thoughts of suicide.

amazingly, the first part of the route out for me was getting to know,
and in a few cases become friends with, some of the guys i tricked
with in t-rooms.  enough of them were decent, thoughtful, and
affectionate men (one of them appears as "roseate tom" in a
chapter of my novel-in-progress) that i began to see the world
of gay men as peopled largely by my brothers-and-lovers, not
by sick freaks.

then came larry, and we learned a lot from one another.  

which reminds me - connecting this to the thread on generational
differences and age - that i went to my first gay activists' alliance
[formerly the gay liberation front] meeting, with larry, one year
before nelson minar was born.  i came out late, but i did it at a time
when a lot of people believed that being gay was a political act.  it
was a relatively new idea at the time.  not everyone got it then, and
i see that not everyone gets it now.  (nelson certainly does, i hasten
to add.)  this is one of the ways the generations are alike.

another way is that there are still plenty of young people who get
suicidal over their homosexuality.

another is that there are still plenty of young people who think that
most gay people - except for themselves and a few others they know -
are in fact sick freaks.

another is that coming out still isn't real easy for most of us, even
with better books available and a larger number of visible role models.

the different generations experience different events (can i explain
how the vietnam war was such a central part of the experience of my
generation?  or why i cried for a day when john f. kennedy died?) and
different popular culture (i went through my teenage years when
rock-and-roll was brand new, i heard joan baez sing at club 54 in
cambridge, i really did once wear bell-bottomed trousers and tie-dyed
shirts and sandals and beautiful silver necklaces), and the words
we use to describe our lives change, but there is much that changes
very very slowly.

meanwhile i like being in middle age.  i can, and do, have friends a
generation younger than me and a generation older, which means i have
access to experiences and sensibilities spanning the better part of
a century.  (and my sex drive hasn't changed since i was 16, when
it moderated some, so i have nothing to complain about on that
front.)

arnold (shamelessly wandering though several threads at once)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: The lost language of cranes
From: Rick Jansen <SSCPRICK@HASARA11.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 14 Aug 1992 19:28:21 CET
Organization: SARA - Stichting Academisch Rekencentrum Amsterdam

>Yesterday I watched "The lost language of cranes" on our national TV
>network. I liked the movie, but I am left with the following question:
>What was the meaning of the story of the boy who `spoke the language
>of cranes' in relation to the coming out story of the father and his
>son? Am I missing something obvious here?
 
Missing a few years of his life?
Not being able to communicate?
 
VERY good movie. There is a censored USA version though, which
shows no nudity. (I just added that to generate interest ;-)
(Is true though.) One of the rare films not dealing with
parody types of people, but simply a very sensitive story.
 
-Rick
--------------- cut here ----- here ------- or here -----------
Rick Jansen                  | e-mail: Rick@SARA.NL
SARA System Support Dept.    |         SSCPRICK@HASARA11.Bitnet
 
  Space is a) something containing nothing
           b) nothing containing everything
  from A Scientific Encyclopaedia For The Enquiring Young Nome
  by Angalo de Haberdasheri
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:50:04 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.


(me)
>If you would just take responsibility for your own actions, that would
>be more than enough.

(elf)
/   *Gak*  What do you think we're doing?  


What are you doing?

Defending bizarre practices by calling them freedom of expression,
and then mysteriously wondering why gays are still oppressed.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this shit out, Elf.



(elf)
/I take all responsibility for my actions.

Then you have decoupled the linkage between cause and effect.  You
say you take responsibility for your actions, and then fail to acknowledge
how your actions can impact others.



/(elf)
/   C. O. W. A. R. D.

Elf, I have posted several responses to all the charges, complaints,
whines, and half-truths you have flung.  Until you get off your ass and 
either put up or shut up about what I wrote, you'd better hang onto the
"coward" logo.  As someone who can't look truth in the eye, it somehow
fits you better.
Newsgroups: soc.motss