HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: potter@csusac.ecs.csus.edu (Carl Kolchak)
Subject:  phoney bookpeddling;  was: Unwillingly To Earth (Pauline Ashwell??
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Summary: con job
Keywords: three-decade-old story collection masquerading as new novel
Organization: INS, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 06:16:47 GMT

D. Jay Newman (quite rightly!) complains:

> From: dn5@apix.psu.edu (D. Jay Newman)
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
> Subject: Unwillingly To Earth (Pauline Ashwell)???
> Date: 28 Jul 92 17:11:48 GMT
> Organization: Penn State
> 
> Hi:
> 
> I just read the book _Unwillingly to Earth_, and I *know* that I
> have read this before.
> 
> I have the feeling that it was in an early 1960's issue of Analog.
> The version I read before was shorter, but with the same ending.
> The characterization was also what I remember.
> 
> If anybody knows when this was first published, please respond!
> 
> ** Flame On **
> I really hate it when publishers do not mention in the publishing
> information that a book has been previously published (or was
> expanded from a shorter work which was)!
> ** Flame Off **
>
> I'm really much better now, thank you.


You are entirely correct.   The primary "Pauline Ashwell" stories
from which this "novel" is derived (with *very* little editing;
the reason you remember it as shorter is probably that you only 
read the first section!) are:
 
"UNWILLINGLY TO SCHOOL"    and
"THE LOST KAFOOZALUM." 
 
Both were published in ANALOG about 30 years ago.   
"UNWILLINGLY TO SCHOOL" was the lead story in its issue, and had one 
of the better Kelly Freas B&W illos on the title page.   (Actually,
*everything* Freas does is among his better work, because he's never
done anything that's merely average.) 
 
If you're looking for references on "Pauline Ashwell," look also 
under "Paul Ash"   (typical is a late-sixties cover story in ANALOG,
"THE WINGS OF A BAT," with cover painting and interior illos by 
Schoenherr.)   and "P.J. Ashman,"  and "Paula Ashell."
 
 
For some reason, TOR and Tom Doherty (the editor) simply didn't bother
to list original credits in the paperback edition. 
 
This is discourteous at best, and insulting and demeaning to those of 
us who have memories, and it's also hypocritical, in that Doherty's
selling a thirty-year-old pulp story set as a "new" novel.  The field
has progressed a bit since then, and it's unfair to the customers to
provide a product without a clue as to its actual provenance.
I won't say "dishonest," since you pay for a book and get a book, 
but it's, at the very least, misleading.

Fie.



-- 
=======================================================================
||  "C" gains much of its vaunted efficiency by employing a very     ||
||  powerful pre-processor, normally referred to as a "programmer."  ||
||  rem: "Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."       ||
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: 10 Best Space Operas (Written / Film)
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:27:55 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Jul27.093252.19980@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, qvortrup@inf (Michael Qvortrup) writes:

>>[list of the 10 best Space-opera stories]
>>particular ranking:
>>
>>   Written                        Film
>>
>>The Mote in God's Eye          Star Wars
>>Skylark of Space               The Return of the Jedi
>>Footfall                       ST:TNG, the Borg episodes
>
>Footfall isn't Space Opera as I understand it.

It's not very good, either.  My reaction after I read it was "this is
_Lucifer's Hammer_, only not done as well".  I was only slightly surprised
to learn that _Footfall_ actually sprang from the leavings of LH.

-- 
What signature?
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:32:13 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Jul21.173253.22701@walter.bellcore.com>  
tedk@jpl.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ted Ko) writes:
> To start, let me say that I can't go into an involved dissertation  
'cause I don't have the time and it's been several years since I read the  
Belgariad.
> 
> Also, one has to understand the context of the series.  It was written  
quite a
> while back when so many ideas, styles, plots hadn't been exhausted.   
Most
> importantly, I believe an ideal time to read it is in high school maybe  
as 
> an introduction or starter into the realm of fantasy.

Quite a while back?  It was written in the last 10 or so years. Are you
implying that somehow there were "ideas, styles, plots" that hadn't 
been exhausted but we somehow ran out of them in the last decade.

In any case, this is just not so. There are a number of good fantasies
being written every year. They just have a tendency to be lost in 
the crowd of dreck.  However, just look at works being produced by
Gene Wolfe or Ellen Kushner, or at any of the books in the Fairy Tale
series, and you'll see that we haven't somehow exhausted
ideas, styles, and plots (whatever that may mean).

To return to Eddings, his first series isn't as bad as some of his
detractors make it out to be. It wasn't very original, but it 
was pleasant (especially the first few books).  Not great, but
a step up from Terry Brooks. But he never developed and continues to  
write the same old stuff.

--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Beyond the Fall of Night
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:19:24 GMT
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: The Big Wedge

In article <1992Jul27.202946.11089@MorningStar.Com>, chris@MorningStar.Com (Chris Miller) writes:
|> 
|> I just finished reading _Beyond the Fall of Night_  and would like to hear
|> the net.consensus on this one.

 To steal a quote from a well-known presidential candidate: "ACK! THPTHT!"

|>  The book is by Arthur C. Clarke and Gregory Berenford (sp?) ,
                                                Benford
|> but is based on and earlier Clarke work called _Against the Fall of Night_.
|> 
|> In order to keep this spoiler-free,  I will only say that I found the 
|> First part of BtFoN to be more-or-less straightforward "hard" sf.  The 
|> Second part, however, was really off the deep end.

 There's a thin line between sense-of-wonder and showing off. Clarke usually
does a good sense-of-wonder: he gives you the message "look what a huge, 
fascianting and mysterious place the Universe is". Benford, in this story
(I haven't read anything else by him) seems more like he's trying to impress
you with how smart he is than anything else. I rapidly lost interest in
_Beyond the Fall of Night_, so much so that while I read it all the way 
through, I can't remember any of what happened in it.

|> Does anyone know of authors other than Clarke who do this kind of writing?
 
 You might like Olaf Stapledon's works. Try _The Star Maker_ and _Last and 
First Men_.

------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Pro-Environment. Pro-Education. Pro-Family. Pro-Choice. 
     \_| Pro-Change. Pro-America. Pro-Clinton.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: The Ophidian Conspiracy
Keywords: Tad Williams
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:31:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu



	A couple of years ago, I picked up for free a couple of quite old,
rather battered paperbacks. Both were labeled as SF but had such cheesy
titles that I was pretty sure they'd be abysmal.

	However, I couldn't have been more wrong. Both of them turned out
to be (at least from MY point of view) masterpieces. One was James Schmidz'
_The Demon Breed_ (Aka _The Tuvela_, aka _Tuvela Trouble_).

	The other one was by John Carr: _The Ophidian Conspiracy_.

	The universe that Carr painted in that book seemed very detailed and
fascinated me. I know that Schmidz did indeed write other books in the Hub
universe of _The Demon Breed_; what I'd like to know is, did Carr write any
other books that took place in the same universe as _The Ophidian Conspiracy_?


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: A few questions about Mike Resnick's Kyrinyaga stories
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:39:45 GMT

I have found the Kirinyaga stories enjoyable writing as well, but one
thing has always bothered me, SF wise.

In several of the stories, our hero decides to play Ngai.  He orders
a drought for their space habitat, and in another story wants
infanticide.   He is opposed by the people who maintain the habitat,
but the opposition is meek, and he wins.

I don't believe it would be like that.  I could see a government granting
them some autonomy in their habitat in order to recreate their old
culture.  But in that old culture, the mundumugu did not really have
the power to order their god to bring about a drought, and to have it
last a specific time.

So in doing this, he's breaking the rules under which the culture was
recreated.   And it's this that our society (and its successor
would be unlikely to let him do.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
From: ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Tolkien's characters
Date: 28 Jul 92 08:36:02 GMT


 CY> I'm puzzled most by your defense of Tolkien; he has his merits, but few
 CY> would place characterization among them.  Tolkien's characters have few
 CY> human drives; where he actually tries to humanize them (the hobbits,
 CY> Boromir), the result is plastic and unreal, or simply unconvincing.  For
 CY> the most part they're thin and melodramatic, so cardboard as to inflate
 CY> the term.  Would you really call Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Saruman, even
 CY> Legolas and Gimli, credible and well-filled characters?

Seems to me that this, like everything else of interest, is a matter
of opinion.  Credible?  Definitely.  Well-filled?  Completely
adequate for the job.  All of them are at least three-dimensional,
generally much more.  None of them are plastic or unreal to me.

I've noticed many times that the "good characterization" debate
always comes down to what characters the individuals involved believe
in and find interesting.  

 * Origin: Disregard previous origin line (1:282/341.0)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Brain size (was Re: the "cause" of homosexuality)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:07:36 GMT

burt@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Burt Voorhees) writes:

>>From article <BruMts.JwE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (L
>enore Levine):

>>>
>>> There may very well be some statistical differences between the
>>> sexes, but I don't think you've chosen a very strong example...
>>[math]

>  The differences in math are in the area of mathematical reasoning and
>in the best studies I know of they are hugh.  E.g., with a sample
>population of something like 60,000 mathematically gifted 13 year olds
>given the math part of the SAT's boys outnumberded girls in the over
>700 score group by 13 to 1.  There is the question of how much of this
>is cultural bias, but one doubts that it all is.

Has anyone done such studies in other cultures? If mathematical
giftedness is so allocated in *every* culture (and *every* gene pool) why
are there cultures where mathematics is considered a *female* activity?

Lenore Levine
levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jason@jazz.cnd.hp.com (Jason Zions)
Subject: Re: Sharon McCrumb:  Zombies of the Gene Pool
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 20:59:43 GMT
Organization: HP-Colorado Networks Division

In article <d_kmh_h.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

   Thank goodness for libraries!  I'd hate to have actually spent money
   for this book.  "Zombies of the Gene Pool" continues the fannish adventures
   of Jay "Bimboes of the Death Sun" Omega, now at a reunion of once-young
   science fiction authors -- some of whom have gone on to success and some
   of whom have not.

[...]

   Give this one a miss!

One hundred percent agreement, including the part about being thankful for
libraries. This book fails as SF, as mystery, as _Romen_a_Clef_, as mindless
entertainment; it just fails.

Jazz

--
This is not an official statement of The Hewlett-Packard Company. No war-
ranty is expressed or implied. The information included herein is not to be
construed as a committment on HP's part. Save a tree - disband an ISO working
group today.

Jason Zions			The Hewlett-Packard Company
Colorado Networks Division	3404 E. Harmony Road
Mail Stop 102			Ft. Collins, CO  80525  USA
jason@cnd.hp.com		(303) 229-3800
From: kleinj@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (Klein Jeffrey A)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Cyberspace (was Re: Gibson's _agrippa_: Not A Hoax)
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:29:57 GMT
Reply-To: kleinj@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (Klein Jeffrey A)
Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering
Originator: kleinj@indian.cps.msu.edu

In article <1992Jul22.205102.861@u.washington.edu> merritt@u.washington.edu writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul22.165925.3683@tronsbox.xei.com>,
>dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) writes:
>|> In article <1992Jul21.184809.24166@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com
>(Brad Templeton) writes:
>|> |The concept of cyberspace was first developed, as far as I know, in
>|> |the Doctor Who episode, "The Deadly Assassin" in 1976, and as a written
>|> |SF treatment by Vernor Vinge in his superb novella "True Names."
>|> 
>|> 	I think John M. Ford beat Dr. Who to it, with WEB OF ANGELS.
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>_WEB OF ANGELS_ is one of my all-time favorites.  I've never thought of the
>analogy to _The Deadly Assasin_, but I agree that it is a similar conception
>of what we have come to call "cyberspace".  
>
>However, I think that one element which was central to WEB OF ANGELS 
>seems to have dropped out of more recent treatments: In WOA the concept
>of a cybernetic mileu which one "programs" by thinking works in both
>directions;  machine entities on the cybernetic side can similarly
>"program" the human wetware/mind while the connection is active.  Am I
>just forgetful and overlooking more recent developments of this idea?
>Can anyone point me to cyberpunk (or other) stories in which even a 
>passive observer of the virtual reality risks having his mind re-programmed?

SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson!  Read it!  Enjoy it!  Live it!
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: space opera:  definition
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:48:35 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Jul22.192142.12644@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
|Two definitions. [Definitions deleted]...
|
|"Star Wars" is the classic example of the first category; E.E. Smith's

Actually a *great* example of the first definition is "Outland"
starring Sean Connery as the Marshal.  Not only a space opera, but a
horse opera at the *same* *time*!  (In case you don't get it, try
transplanting the story to a mining town in the Old West - it changes
not at all).

|"Skylark" series is the classic example of the second.

Does it though?  All you get out of the SF element is fast travel.
In a Western that comes from trains and stage coaches.  What major
plot elements *rely* on technology in these stories?
Admittedly its been a long time since I read them, so my memory may not
be entirely clear, but they read rather like outer space Tarzan, in terms
of plot outline (villain kidnaps hero's girlfriend/wife, big, strong hero
goes roaring off after him to rescue her, ...).
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: ddb@tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-Bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Errors In Covers (was Re: Hyperion Covers)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:27:03 -0600

 BT> I wonder if science fiction/fantasy novels went through the skin-color
 BT> test. I'd like to think that the readers of those books are open-minded
 BT> enough that the skin color question has no impact on sales.

You're missing the point; marketing of books is aimed at getting them
into the stores, not at selling them to readers.  If they don't get
into the stores, no reader will get a chance to consider buying them.
The group of people who puts books into stores is a very different
group of people from those who actually purchase books for their own
reading. 

 * Origin: Peace through superior rhetoric (1:282/341.0)
From: deb@loni.ucla.edu (Debjoti Sensharma)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Science Fiction book club
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:51:40 GMT
Organization: UCLA Laboratory of Neuroimaging

In article <1992Jul15.215019.11373@rtsg.mot.com> bukovins@rtsg.mot.com (Dave Bukovinsky) writes:
>From: bukovins@rtsg.mot.com (Dave Bukovinsky)
>Subject: Re: Science Fiction book club
>Date: 15 Jul 92 21:50:19 GMT

>I was in this book club for about 2 years. I eventually dropped out, mainly
>because of what you already noticed - their selections started leaning
>more and more towards fantasy (I'm more a SF reader...).

>(no flames on fantasy vs. SF please ;-)

>Also, in followup offers to "re-join" I have noticed that their
>prices have gone up - when I was a member you could get a decent quality
>hardback (special club editions) for about 4 bucks; now they are anywhere
>from $ 9 - 14. Well, our local discount book store can get very close to
>these figures, and they carry what I want, so I can't see ever re-joining....
>(BTW - does anyone know why their prices increased this quickly?)

One thing I thought was disadvantageous, was that you have to pay SHIPPING 
too. So it costed even more.




Debjoti Sensharma
UCLA Laboratory of Neuroimaging
[************YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED****************]
[*************RESISTANCE IS FUTILE******************]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: Brain size (was Re: the "cause" of homosexuality)
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 11:25:46 GMT

In article <92204.123033AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET>, <AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
|> In article <1992Jul20.153829.139057@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, tes0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu
|> (THOMAS EDWIN SCHMIDLIN) says:
|> >
|> >>(a bunch of previous messages that I am leaving out)
|> >
|> >No, CARTER, Reagan and Bush would not qualify for that, because Carter was an
|> >absolute moron.
|> 
|> Fully recognizing the irony in the original post, it should be noted that
|> while Carter was not a very good President, he was by no means a moron.  The
|> Navy is not in the habit of handing nuclear submarines over to morons.
|> 
|> David Hungerford  AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET  Opinions?  Mine, all mine!!!



Yeah, but if he HAD been a moron, what would the Navy have done?  Tell him
he couldn't have them?   Our system is entirely capable of allowing a
moron to sit in the Oval Office.  In fact, it could be argued that it's
already happened several times, and is about to again.

I wonder how many jelly beans would fit in some skulls.


Mike Lynch
USAF 1964-1972
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Kelly Freas (was: Re: phoney bookpeddling)
Keywords: three-decade-old story collection masquerading as new novel
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:52:09 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.061647.17381@csusac.csus.edu> potter@csusac.ecs.csus.edu (Carl Kolchak) writes:
>"UNWILLINGLY TO SCHOOL" was the lead story in its issue, and had
>one of the better Kelly Freas B&W illos on the title page.   (Actually,
>*everything* Freas does is among his better work, because he's never
>done anything that's merely average.)

True.

Did anyone else catch the Kelly Freas interview on the Doctor Demento
show last week?  Dr. D. was mostly interested in Kelly's work on Mad
Magazine, but he did get a chance to talk about SF illustration,
Analog/Astounding, and the Illustrators of the Future contest.

-- 
Mike Van Pelt                                When guns are outlawed,
Headland Technology/Video 7                  only Carl Rowan will have guns.
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: List of voters in ESF award so far
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:05:26 GMT

As a side note, I am now entering the results of the ESF Ballot to this
date as a real Hugo ballot entry being sent in (because tomorrow is the
deadline for Hugo ballots)

So, unless the voting trends change, the ESF winner gets one direct Hugo
vote.

ESF voting has NOT closed, and ballots will be accepted until Aug 10.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Karl Leikam)
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:08:12 GMT

In article <TOMW.92Jul24225916@orac.esd.sgi.com> tomw@esd.sgi.com writes:
>> Actually, this idea of hiding out in the Oort cloud ....
>> Any suggestions as to why it hasn't happened?
>
>I see two problems:
>
>1) All the other masters blow him away when they figure out what he's up
>   to.  The want to protect their own genetic heritage, no?
>
>2) The mediators call 'Crazy Eddie' on him, and turn him in before he
>   even gets off the planet.
>

  Aww, nobody's seen the obvious, yet??
 
  3) It takes a cooperative effort, and no other master will help one of
their number to do so; or
 
  4)One master can do it on his own. So can another. And another, and...