From: rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Reply-To: rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Robert  Johnston)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:40:10 GMT

[Note - The author had originally set the followup to only
soc.culture.jewish in a rather lame attempt to avoid the flame-throwers.]

In article <1992Dec14.134324.19541@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.212300.6618@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi
>Hausmann) writes:
>
>First of all, Maddi should stick to her excellent efforts moderating
>rec.humor.funny; at least there foot in the mouth ignorance doesn't mean
>much.
>

I don't see any feet in any mouths here, except for your own, Mr. Saal.
On the other hand, If you meant to say what you say below, I believe
psychiatric care is in order.

>>My religious upbringing was in Judaism.  I had a somewhat schizoid
>>upbringing in the faith, in that our family attended an Orthodox
>>synogogue, but acted more like the "Reform" faith at home.  We didn't
>>keep kosher.  We could have bacon in restaurants but not at home.  We
>>*did* keep kosher for Passover, however.  We went to synogogue every
>>Saturday, but we *drove*, which is not allowed; one should walk.
>
>>Needless to say, this "pick-and-choose Jewish Lite" faith led to my
>>asking an awful lot of questions.  When I asked my parents why we
>>didn't keep kosher (as I was learning how to do so in Hebrew School),
>>I was told it was "too much trouble."  The crystallizing events that
>>led me to atheism were:
>
>This exemplifies the poor education-experience mix Maddi seems to have
>received.  Children are not so stupid as to miss the inconsistency
>inherent in "do as I say, not as I do."  Few, if any, of my childhood
>friends who "kept Kosher in the home, but not out" are particularly
>concerned about the kashruth of the homes they now run.
>

I am sure that Maddi apreciates your supporting her arguement.
Did you actually bother to read what she wrote, Mr. Saal?

>>   2.  I attended a Jewish Summer Camp.  It wasn't terribly
>>       religious, but we had Saturday services (mercifully brief)
>>       and one day a group of Lubavichers (ultra-orthodax Hassidic
>>       Jews) came to talk to us about their ways.  The boys and
>>       girls were separated, and one girl asked why this was (we
>>       spoke to the women).  One replied that if there were no
>>       boys to distract us, we could study the Torah more effectively.
>>       However, I knew from my lessons, and from how our synogogue
>>       was built, that no care was put into whether the women could
>>       see the men.  The intent and design was so the men would not
>>       be distracted by the women; after all, the women were on the
>>       6' high raised platform with the walls.  I remember deciding
>>       right then and there that this religion was really stupid.
>>       Age: 12.
>
>From one lecture and the construction techniques of one synagogue this 12
>year old has the wisdom to categorize?
>

Believe it or not, children have the abilities to think, learn, and
extrapolate. ( Sorry if the big word offends you, Mr. Saal. )
I am sure this dissapoints you no end.

>>Later readings from other atheist scholars helped confirm my beliefs,
>>but these experiences got me there.  I should also add that since my
>>father's religious indoctrination (of me) seemed more motivated by
>
>I find it interesting that there are athiest "scholars" but no religious
>ones.  Religion is summed up in her post as no more intellectual than
>"indoctrination."
>

Ahem. You must be reading a different post than I, Mr. Saal. Nowhere
does Maddi say any such thing. Arguement-by-putting-words-in-other-
people's-mouths is not a valid debating technique. Try again Mr. Saal.

>>duty than his own belief, that this didn't help matters.  My dad is
>>a Holocaust escapee, and has a strong need to carry on his religion.
>>Unfortunately (for him), I saw no comfort, love or beauty in it; just 
>>a lot of "Thou Shalt Nots" and "How can you question this religion your
>>ancestors died for?"  I understand what he wants, but it didn't make
>>me want it for me.  He's pretty much failed with my brother, too.  I
>>still don't think he's figured out why.  I hope any theist 
>>parents reading this learn from his example.
>
>If all you can do is view religion, espceially Judaism, as a series of
>"don't do's" you have missed out on more than just education.
>

Now we get to the heart of the matter. Judaism is the one true way.
Please dont post this crap to alt.atheism. We don't like people 
making baseless arguements in support of religion. This is very 
offending.

>>Someone asked earlier why so many Jews became atheists.  I
>>have a few theories on that.  We're a minority religion, so
>>there's less of a chance of succumbing to the "group neurosis"
>>that Christians must deal with.  We meet people from other
>>religious groups every day.  No wonder only the Hassids, with
>>their strict isolationism, are the only group of American
>>Jews still growing.
>
>This is bad sociology.  Look deeper and you'll find every interpretation
>within Judasim, at least from traditional Conservative and on to the
>"right" is growing,  Most are anything but isolationist.
>

I didn't know that the Hassids were traditional, conservative Jews.
Thank you for informing me, Mr. Saal.

By the way, use of generic, meaningless terms like growing does not
help to vaidate your arguements, Mr. Saal. Only the abilities to use
Logic and Reason can do that. Isn't it unfortunate how many people
have lost use of these abilities?

>>Maddi Hausmann                madhaus@netcom.com
>>Humorist, Satirist, Tech Writer.  Take your pick.
>
>Ooops.  My mistake.  I didn't realize this was all a satire.  I'm relieved
>to know that her Jewish education is not as abysmal as this writeng, were
>it not satire, tends to portray.

I know lots of Jews, MR. Saal. I was born Jewish. You, sir, are no Jew,
only a close minded bigot. Unless you care to argue that all Jews are such. 
This I will also argue against.

>-- 
>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
>	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton

To those of you reading this on soc.culture.jewish; I suggest that
you teach Mr.Saal that It is not a good thing for him to give 
anti-semites ammunition.

To Maddi I would like to say that I appreciate your posts and
your work as moderator of rec.humor.moderated.

To Mr. Saal: I  Feel very, very sorry for you. Please don't have 
children; If you are the one teaching them, I fear for their 
well being. Please lock yourself up somewhere, and throw away the key.
You are a very scary, pathetic person.

Robert Johnston