From: scythe@byron.u.washington.edu (The Grim Reaper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: house-rules
Date: 13 Oct 92 00:33:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct13.003357.10122
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <MeqSes600VooM8Bo86@andrew.cmu.edu> "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
>>Well, gee, you might as well just say "A cleric can spank a mage.  Let's
>>switch the mage and cleric attacks and hit dice."
>Please tell me this is a joke.  A cleric can't spank a mage.  Win?
>Perhaps.  But certainly not a sure thing (sleep, color spray,
>fireball, etc. come to mind).
>
Command-sleep, cause blindness, cause light wounds.....
>>You find a scroll with a spell that the mage already has in his
>>book.  What do you do?  Give it to the thief!  Besides, the mage
>>can *write* scrolls for the thief to use.
>We don't usually have parties of 10th level plus people running
>around.  And your mage must be really bored penning scrolls for the
>thief (unless your GM is really lenient about writing scrolls).
How many scrolls do you find?
>
>>  Now, when you run into that 20th level drow cleric/mage, that's
>>when the thief comes in and backstabs.
>You overestimate the backstab (and underestimate the opposition).  At
>5th level (again, we don't run around fighting 20th level people) you
>get really mondo and do triple damage.  Let's say you're fighting a
>7th level cleric/mage who has some henchman (or do you fight really
>stupid opponents who wander around alone?).  Ok, how do you get behind
>the cleric/mage?  Or do your opponents close their eyes and ignore
>you?  Ok, somehow you've gotten behind the the cleric/mage and
>backstab him.  Big shock:  he probably won't die.  Longsword = d8 * 3
>+ X (where X is your bonus to damage).  Probably totalling around 17
>points (and remember 5th level is the first level you can do this,
>your multiplier won't increase until 9th level).  Probably not a fatal
>blow, and now your in the midst of several angry opponents and will be
>shredded.  
Backstab is not really as nasty as it should be.  Mostly because
the most "appropriate" weapons for backstab do (at most) d6 or so.
Maybe a second, normal attack should be given right after the backstab?
That would simulate a rather distracted victim =)
>
>
>>Well, I've never played a thief before, but I'm hoping to play one in a
>>campaign that a friend of mine will be starting soon (hint, hint, Matt ;-)
>>and I'm really looking forward to it.  I think the thief offers the
>>best role-playing possibilities.
>Agreed, the thief is the most fun (you may reevaluate the thief's
>power  after you've reached 6 or 7th level though).  
Oh definitely.  I love thieves.
>
>
>>You may as well argue that the thief isn't as effective in combat as
>>a fighter.  No kidding!  That's not his job.
>True, but the fighter isn't as useful as the cleric out of combat is
>he? (so I'd hope t
>
>>Now that depends, doesn't it?  A 4th level thief is much more effective
>>than a 4th level mage in combat, and possibly even out of combat.
>No.  A 4th level mage rocks in combat.  Consider:  4 1st level
>fighters happen upon a first level (probably specialist) mage.  Who
>will win?  (assuming no surprise, my money is on the mage).  
>
Assuming no surprise, the fighters definitely.  Assuming they aren't
completely stupid  (I hate people who play dumb fighters), the fighters
will have at least one with a ready missile-type weapon.  It's pretty
easy to hit the mage's AC 10, and one he's hit, he's toast.  Next round
he gets bashed by four long swords.... bet he wouldn't survive even one good
hit.
>
>>Mage: Oh, I'll have my unseen servant set off the trap.
>>
>>GM:  OK, he does.  A block drops from the ceiling, and everyone takes 10d6
>>     points of damage.
>Thieves aren't that good at traps.  Why?  If a thief puts all his
>points in 2 abilities he can get them to reasonable levels by 4th
>level (imo).  So now what else can he do?  Not much.  Finding traps
>counts as one of these, which is the other (open locks is the obvious
>choice, but now you're useless at sneaking, backstabbing, etc.).  And
>if you can't pick locks you get some amusing scenarios "Well, I've
>disarmed the NUKE O DOOM but can't open the damn door!"
Just as kind of a side point, isn't 10d6 a bit much for an adventure with
a level 4 thief? :).  Maybe you could just give higher base values to thieves?
Or let them sacrifice one ability totally (as in, always have 0% in that skill)
and give them 20%-30% extra to spend?
>
>>A mage who spends all of his spell slots learning Unseen Servant, Knock,
>>and other thief-imitating spells is pretty damn useless for anything else.
>Unseen Servant is much more than a thief imitating spell.  Of course,
>you have to have a reasonable idea of what you're going to be doing
>ahead of time.
>
>> But when you keep in mind that thieves aren't supposed
>>to run into combat, they don't seem so weak.  I don't understand why
>>you feel this need to turn thieves into fighters.
>Think about it.  You're turning clerics into fighters.  Are clerics
>powerful in combat without their fighting abilities?  Yes.  Are
>clerics powerful outside of combat?  Yes, they tend to be influential
>among peasants or can gain at least minimal aid from a temple.  And
>they get spells that can gain information, aid in stealth, and help
>cure a party, and spells that have combat uses.  Seems like a well
>rounded class *and* they have fighting ability.
They shouldn't.  I'm sure I said this somewhere.  As long as you
are using specialty priests, the standard cleric is not th fighting type.

>
>>Most of your points seem to be centered around combat. 
>Well, half of my point was that thieves aren't that great outside of
>combat because their thief abilities are dominated by magic (look at
>the number of spells that impose *severe* penalties on thieving
>abilities), and there chances of success are so low.  Clerics have a
>*very* wide spell selection, are very useful out of combat, and are
>almost as good as fighters.  
>
>	joe

I'm talking about second edition here.  So sue me.

                                                  
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                               THE GRIM REAPER	
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