HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:30:41 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software


>>>I understand that for some people, the 12 steps in general and AA, in
>>>particular, have saved their lives, and any hint that it is not the
>>>optimum solution for someone else threatens your recovery.

I believe that those of us who regard this newsgroup as an extended
meeting would do well to abide by the rules of any meeting.  That is,
_no_crosstalk._  When a newcomer shows up in a meeting and proceeds to
question, challenge, or object to the program or any aspect of it, what
do we do?  Do we immediately rise to the defense of the program as we
see it?  Or do we let them talk and then go on to the next person.  I
suggest that we do the same in this newsgroup.

If this newsgroup isn't a meeting, then we have no right to expect that
people will share our 12-step affiliation.  As such, we violate the
tradition of having no opinion on outside issues when we take exception
to a non-member's critique of the program.  That non-member's opinion
is an outside issue.  Thus, it is not our place to comment on it, or to
rebut it.

In either case, defending one's own view of the program is out of
line.  Anyone who cares to comment on his or her own experience is no
doubt welcome to do so.  Anyone who comments on the opinions or
experience of another does so in violation of one or more program
traditions.

I have been brought up short on several occasions for acting as if this
were a 12-step meeting.  Under the original charter of the newsgroup,
it isn't.  Thus, non-members ought to be welcome here, and we need to
respect their perspective on things.  This works both ways.
Non-members would do well to respect the sensibilities of members.
However, while non-members are under no obligation to do so, the
program has some specific things to say to members about this.

For those who need a hard-ass program, fine.  There are plenty of
hard-ass meetings and sponsors.  For those who think that a hard-ass
program is the only sort of program that can work, may I respectfully
suggest that you work your own program, not mine.

Thank you,

-r

Live and Let Live
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: moiram@sacajawea.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Moira Mallison)
Subject: Re: Hello, I am a newbie
Reply-To: moiram@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:15:31 GMT

In article <drice.711692988@ponder>, drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:

>> I've been in OA for just over a year and my group has degenerated
>>to the same type of atmosphere.  I decided to quit going to meetings
>>because others were only talking about how bad things were going for
>>them.  Even those who have been in recovery for some time had the
>>same down-in-the-dumps attitude and where I used to return from
>>meetings feeling much better, I returned home feeling depressed
>>because of this.  Too few were the times when someone would share
>>how well things were going.  I did a couple of times and only got
>>blank stares whenever I was finished.  Not very encouraging to say
>>the least.  

I had this same experience in ISA.  I sort of "happened" (thank you
God) onto another meeting at the same time in the same building where
there is more of a balance.  It's a tricky thing, I think, to allow
space for incest survivors to take about the emerging memories, and
the pain in dealing with them, and to also ensure the balance.  We
manage it in my current group by having a growing core group that
provides balance for each other, and models the balance for newcomers.

There are a couple of challenges in recovering from incestuous child
abuse that I don't see in recovering from substance abuse.  The first
is there is no "abstinence" for many of us (some of us have compulsive
self-harm behaviors to abstain from, such as cutting; many of us have
eating disorders which we are also dealing with).  But in terms of
recovery from the abuse, itself, there isn't any black/white behavior
that I can define as abstienence that I do (or not) one day at a time,
to mark my progress.  

The other is that all of us deal with emerging memories in cycles.
Because of this, any one of us can have enjoyed weeks, even months, of
serenity only to be pulled back down into the dark chasm of new
memories to be healed.  And when I'm there again, it's as frightening
and painful as it was the first time, and I am experiencing the same
kinds of emotions as any newcomer.  This process teaches us all
humility.  

Moira
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson)
Subject: Re: Splitting alt.recovery
Organization: Research and Evaluation Dept. Portland Public Schools, Portland Oregon.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:56:21 GMT

esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) writes:

>The more I practice identifying with what others say and feel, the closer  
>I get to doing what I'm supposed to be doing.  If everyone I interact with  
>already agrees with me, how can I learn and grow?

I agree entirely.  Although I lost the compulsion to engage in one 
compulsive behavior fairly easily, I am finding that it is the business
of living life on life's terms and dealing with all of my other 
compulsive behaviors that causes me trouble.  Reading what others who 
are actively dealing with those other behaviors have to say has been
enlightening.  I would hate to have to sort through several sub-groups
to find the wisdom that I now find by regularly this one.

	-Diana

-- 
***********************************************************************
Diana Thompson				     dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com
Portland Public Schools				(usual disclaimer here)
*                  -----------------------------------                *
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Time for a FAQ?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 22:10:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

Hear here.  Excellent suggestion.  Some things to include: 12 steps, 
12 traditions, slogans, who is Bill W?  who is Lois W?  what do you
mean by "powerless", what is a sponsor?, how do you know when you've
crossed the line between heavy use and addiction?  what's the 
"big book", what's the "12 'n 12", how can I locate my local *A
group?, I have a friend/relative who use of a substance/activity
disturbs me - do I belong here?, My parents used * when I was 
growing up - do I belong here?, what's it cost to join *A?, 
what's this "higher power" stuff anyway?, is everyone on 
alt.recovery in a 12 step program?  what is *A's view on therapy?
what are "The Promises"?,  I've seen a number of books and articles
on 12 step programs lately - how come *A never seems to give a
rubuttal/its side of the story?  what's a slip?  if you slip can you
come back?  how does one choose/find a sponsor?  how is a spiritual
focus different from a religious focus?  I'm so angry at my * for what
they did - what should I do?  I'm so full of shame about *ing * when
I was * - what should I do?  I'm afraid to say what I really think or
feel when I'm around * - what should I do?  

That's a start!  

-Mike
From: jwest@zeus.calpoly.edu (Jason Steven West)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Time to Split alt.recovery ???
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:55:47 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <1992Jul28.192240.21887@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> cah@tyr.JPL.NASA.gov (Allen Halsell) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.150245.12337@Cadence.COM>, jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>> Perhaps it is time for this newsgroup to split into groups which would more
>> specifically deal with the problem at hand like:
>> 
>> alt.recovery.aa 
>> alt.recovery.oa 
>> alt.recovery.alanon
>> alt.recovery.rr

Please, don't forget alt.recovery.na.  Just my two cents.

I like to "listen" to all of the "talk" on this net, whatever the message.
"If it won't fit, don't wear it."  For me, the primary purpose is the
chance that someone will get the recovery that they need, however they
get recovery.

For me the bottom line behavior in my recovery is very clear and set in
concrete.  If I want to recover from active addiction from drugs/alcohol
then what has worked, works.  The 12 steps aren't easy to work and there
is a level of motivation with those in a 12-step program that comes
from experence.  I only speak for myself.
From: TMH1@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: ACOA meetings in Boulder?
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:39:46 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

I'll be visiting friends in Boulder, Colo.  for a week in early September
and I think I'd feel better knowing where and when the ACOA meetings are.
Does the local newspaper carry a list and, if so, on what day is it printed?
Or does anyone in this group know when and where the meetings are?

Thanks in advance....
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Time to Split alt.recovery ???
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:37:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) writes:

>>alt.recovery.rr
>              ^^
>SO what does the rr stand for?

I'd guess it's for Rational Recovery - one of those God-less recovery
programs, like SOS.   ;-)

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
"It's not the world that's got so much worse but the news coverage
that's got so much better." -- G. K. Chesterton
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom)
Subject: Re: RECOVERY!@???
Organization: Pacific * Bell
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:11:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.005345.2966@csc.ti.com> moiram@csc.ti.com writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.144405.28598@intelhf.hf.intel.com>, mikec@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Mike Coleman) writes:
>>> chris.mathis@madness.network23.com (Chris Mathis)  writes:
>>> 
>>> > Recovery?! So where is all the helpfull advice???!!!!!
>>> 
>
>>> one day at a time
>>> go to meetings, and don't drink between meetings
>>> live and let live
>>> work the steps
>>> expect a miracle
>>> Keep coming back, it works . . . . .
>
>
>I've read five or six answers to this question, and they all point out the 
>obvious bias in this newsgroup.  The assumption that when someone is
>talking about recovery, they are talking about AA.   
>
>Now it may be that Chris is an alcoholic, but there is no more in the
>request to indicate that than there is to indicate whether Chris is a
>man or a woman.
>
>Moira


Good Point. My original post refered to my experience with AA and
drinking, however, the steps have application in all facets of my
life. Today there is a twelve step program for just about any
adiction or life problem that I can think of. So, now that I think
of it, my answer is still the same. Do what it says in your basic
text (mine was a Big Book)

Bill H
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: Terry.Murphy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Terry Murphy)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:29:49 GMT

>I understand that for some people, the 12 steps in general and AA, in
>particular, have saved their lives, and any hint that it is not the
>optimum solution for someone else threatens your recovery.  But what
>happens when you attack anyone who honestly questions the program,
>even in an effort to gain more understanding of it, is that you make
>this an unsafe place for those people to post.   I notice we haven't
>heard a word from Christina since Jim P. blasted her a couple weeks
>ago.
>
>So maybe this is part of your plan.  Attack the dissenters and
>alt.recovery will become alt.aa.  
>
>Moira  

Moira, let me break this to you gently. I did have my life saved by AA, in
particular. When I post, I speak for no one or no group, only for myself.
My solution was the 12 steps of AA. My Big Book says that is suggestive, not
The answer, but a answer. To those who can find recovery through self help
groups, psychotherapy, church or any other way, Great for them. And if that
way can help others who are still suffering, fantastic!

NO ONE CAN THREATEN MY RECOVERY BUT ME

Words can't even begin
to shake my beliefs.

I do not attack for the purpose of attacking. If my words were harsh, what
about what life is to the people who still suffer from alcohol. A few well
choosen words may save their life.

I do agree that alt.recovery is too large. I would love to see alt.aa, because
my primary purpose is to carry the message to the Alcoholic not the
Overeater, ACoA, Smoker, Drug abuser, incest survivor....et al.

Anybody else?

^terry murphy

I didn't care who know when I was a drunk, do you think I care who knows
that I'm recovering

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson)
Subject: I need a hug
Organization: Portland Public Schools, Portland Or.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:35:36 GMT

Hi guys -

I'm looking for some words of wisdom or reassurance or something.  

Last summer a major relationship that I was in started to come crashing
down.  It was an awful summer.  His deceptivness got worse, my drinking
got worse.  Finally he said that he was leaving.  I stopped drinking.  
He only sort of left.  Finally I told him that he couldn't have it both
ways and that he really had to leave.  I was devastated.  He immediately
got involved with someone else, but has maintained contact with me and 
has repeatedly told me that the other woman was somewhat of a flake.

That's the details.  What I know is that my H.P. does take very good care
of me.  I probably would not have stopped drinking when I did if the man
who would make me the craziest the fastest had not come into my life.  I
feel like I am getting healthier and that not being with him is the best
for me.  HOWEVER, when we were together, I was wildly in love with him.
It was the kind of relationship where I often knew where he was just 
because I sensed it.  I guess it was the kind of situation where there
were magnificent highs and devastating lows -- sort of alcoholic, huh.

Right now I am feeling crazy and sad and ready to cry.  I just heard that
he is talking marriage with the woman he is currently with -- the one he
has told me is a flake.  I know all of the reasons why I am better off now,
but knowing that doesn't make my heart stop hurting and it doesn't make the
lump in my throat go away.  It would be easier I know if I had someone in
my life right now, but I don't so I end up feeling especially lonely.

I guess that what I want is for someone to tell me that it will be OK.  I
keep saying that to myself, but right now that just isn't enough.  Damn, I
need a hug.  And probably what the little kid in me wants is a promise that
I won't be alone for the rest of my life.

Thanks for listening. 

	

 
a
-- 
***********************************************************************
Diana Thompson				     dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com
Portland Public Schools				(usual disclaimer here)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: 0 days (Was : 13 days)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:15:32 GMT

In article <8270012@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> gcr@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (George Rieck) writes:
>Hello Mark,
>
>I find your message disturbing. Hopefully, the body of the message was
>lost and not intentionally omitted.
>
>If you have started to drink again, I am sorry. Your previous message indicated
>a great deal of dispair and hopelessness. 
>
>I wish I understood how you feel, but I don't. I cannot. I am not an
>alcoholic - so I will never know what it feels like. I only can tell you
>what I see happen to peole who drink. The only truly hopeless state
>is a drunken one. If you do not drink you can be whatever you want.
>
>I would recommend that you may have other issues to deal with beyond
>the addiction to ETOH. Depression may be a serious problem, this can
>be treated by anti-depressant drugs and therapy.
>
>Here is coarse of action that I have seen work for several people. These
>people now have >3 years of sobrity each and are tenacious defenders of
>their recovery. They are making it, they are also making good lives for
>themselves and for their families. I cannot say that this would work for
>you, but you might just consider it....
>
>
>Get sober - detox - use a treatment program if you can 21-30 days of intense
>learning. Go on Antibuse. This may help you over the next couple of months.
>Then get into therapy and on antidepressants if they are warranted.
>
>Go to AA 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 meetings a week. Go to as many as you need
>to make it. Also, get involved, get a sponsor, focus you hope on not
>what's wrong with things from before, but what's right with what you
>are doing. You cannot change the past, but you will make the future.
>
>If you need a friend, I'm here, but mostly, I would say AA is here too. They
>know more about what you feel than I can.
>
>But the bottom line is you can do what you want. Nobody, not me, not
>anyone can decide to do it for you, or make you , or .... we can only
>offer a story, an ear, a shoulder, ....
>
>I hope you decide to stop, it is worth it, life will be as good as you
>decide it can be ...
>
>George Rieck

Sounds like pretty good advice to me George. That's comming from the fingers
of an alcoholic. Hey Mark, think about taking George's advice your worth it!!!!
						              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Joni :)

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jcohen@sco.COM (Jon Cohen)
Subject: Stepson in Big Trouble
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:48:01 GMT
Followup-To: e-mail
Keywords: stepson trouble



My wife and I recently decided to kick my 18-year-old
stepson out of the house, as he has continued to break our
basic rule that he cannot live with us while abusing alcohol
and other drugs. He seemed to pull himself together and
graduate from high school. but as soon as school was over he
headed straight into heavy drugs and drinking. It's clear
that he is not only drinking heavily, but using intravenous
drugs, probably heroine, and G-d knows what else. So loaded
that he has left fired-up spoons with bloddy wads of cotton
in them around the house.

My wife and I both come from families with a lot of
alcoholism and drug abuse. We have both put a lot of energy
into our own therapy and recovery and are clean and sober..
We have struggled to make it work as a "blended" family and
come a long way toward establishing boundaries, civility,
order, and dignity in our house.

We have offered my stepson total support for any therapy,
detox, or rehab program, or any educational program he
enters. But he denies that he has any problem, tells all
kinds of lies about his activities, says he loves his
lifestyle, etc. Meanwhile, this beautiful smart kid looks
like warmed-over death with a hole in his arm, wearing rags
and reeking of alcohol and patchouli.

Needless to say, this is sad. I worry about his survival, as
he has only a part-time minimum wage job and a barely
running, unregistered van. Right now, we don't know where he
is or what will happen to him, although we have let him know
that the door is open if he wants to get into rehab.

I feel guilty about the shitty childhood he has had, as his
mom and I took years on our therapy and recovery to achieve
the boundaries and functional relationship we have today.
It didn't help that his biologivcal dad has totally
abandoned him, but I wish now that I had done more to be
a dad and authority figure for jhim--a role for which I
was completely unprepared when I married his mom (he was 8
at the time).

At the same time, I am furiously angry with him and relieved
that he is out of our home. I dread confronting him,
especially when he is loaded, as my impulse is to knock his
teeth dowen his throat and tell him to get his hippie BS and
his poisonous drugs away from me, my house, my son, etc.

Quite a mix of feelings.

In the past, when I was involved in a relationship with an
alcoholic, I was helped by going to Al-Anon and working the
steps. I think this may be time to go to meetings again for
me, as I find myself obsessing on my stepson's situation,
wanting so much to take responsibility for his problems,
etc.

I would be grateful to hear from anyone who has been
involved in a similar situation. I will be coping with this
one ODAT.

JC
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: moiram@sacajawea.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Moira Mallison)
Subject: Re: RECOVERY!@???
Reply-To: moiram@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 00:53:45 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.144405.28598@intelhf.hf.intel.com>, mikec@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Mike Coleman) writes:
>> chris.mathis@madness.network23.com (Chris Mathis)  writes:
>> 
>> > Recovery?! So where is all the helpfull advice???!!!!!
>> 

>> one day at a time
>> go to meetings, and don't drink between meetings
>> live and let live
>> work the steps
>> expect a miracle
>> Keep coming back, it works . . . . .


I've read five or six answers to this question, and they all point out the 
obvious bias in this newsgroup.  The assumption that when someone is
talking about recovery, they are talking about AA.   

Now it may be that Chris is an alcoholic, but there is no more in the
request to indicate that than there is to indicate whether Chris is a
man or a woman.

Moira
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:17:52 GMT

rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:

<stuff deleted>
>I believe that those of us who regard this newsgroup as an extended
>meeting would do well to abide by the rules of any meeting.  That is,
>_no_crosstalk._  When a newcomer shows up in a meeting and proceeds to


uh - Robert, the _only_ place that I have heard that 'no crosstalk'
rule is in OA - and I have been to AA, OA, Al-Anon, ACA across the
country.

It is not, in _any_ case, standard. Go to central Texas ( Delta House,
in Killeen, might be a good start) and explain how screwed up your
platoon sergeant is ( I tried that - once, in 1985 ! ) Severe 'crosstalk'!

love and service

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....