From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Any Screenwriters out there?
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:52:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA

johna@intacc.uucp (John Allen) writes:
bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, johna@intacc.uucp (John Allen) says:
>>
>>>Time and time again I have
>>>seen three act structure screenplays filled with plot points and inciting
>>>incidents but no moment to reality.
>>
>>Could you explain this further?  I don't understand what it means.
>>
>>Bonita Kale
>
>Sure. There's a guy floating around who teaches screenwriting by the name of
>McGee. He charges a fortune never written a screenplay and basically what he
>teaches is what you see from Hollywood every day. Most scripts are written off
>a treatment that is pitched so the story and characters have to be broken down
>into a fairly short easy to understand form. Mcgee and others have spawned a
>cottage industry out of selling: How to write a Screenplay. The reason I know
>this is because I was seeing the same stuff over and again from students. i
>finally asked what was going on and after a lot of discussion it turned out
>either someone had the read this book or gone to that workshop. 
>
>      >>deleted incomplete description of plot-point formula<<
>
>Sorry I'm to bored to do this. the problem with this thing is that because the
>story and characters are created before any dialogue is actually written its
>all arbitrary. None of it happens for an internal reason. Moment to moment
>reality comes from a writer asking questions of his characters. How does the
>guy feel? What does it mean to Frank to be a policemen? What's it like to have
>thios happen or this said? If questions like this are asked if the moment is
>true then the story and character take twists and turns that do not follow a
>formula. What most "hacks" have failed to learn is that action is
>character.People are what they do in drama not what you the writer say they
>are. 
>
>If you write the outline of the story before you've written anything you're
>going to be hanging one arbitrary scene on the line after another. Its the
>internal mechanics of each moment,scene, acvt which dictate what comes
>after...
>
>Yes its a good idea to know where you're going but a) sometimes that's not
>possible and B) the thrill is the trip there....
>
>Plot points is writing from the fill in the dots school.There is a reason that
>its called the film industry. The idea is to knock off as much product as you
>can. have a lot of things in development and hope that one catches.
>
>However the great scripts ChinaTown. The Godfather. Mean Streets etc do not
>follow this formula school. What is the inciting incident at the beginning of
>the Godfather? Michaels return? the wedding? the undertakers request? the
>setup for the meeting with the turK? Answer all of the above and none of them.
>You see you can look at Shakespeare's plays like a lot of this people have and
>say: AAha this is what he's doing and break it down but it still won't help. 
>
>The craft of writing is like all crafts based on work. A lot of it.There are
>no shortcuts. Once you have a draft of something and have a rough idea of what
>it is that you want to write about then one can worry about whether all the
>subway stops( inportant story moments: a lot of writers have all the most
>important moments happen off stage or screen and wonder why everybody says
>their script is a yawner) are clearly delineated but those m,ajour story
>moments will only happen if they have naturally grown from the characters
>relationship. Basically in a film that's what you got people relating to
>something;one another their environment. ....
>
>Ooops going on a bit long here... Sorry. John
>,

John, I appreciate your disdain for the formula approach to
screenwriting, but...perhaps I don't understand your position
completely.

You seem to be making several points.  Your post seems to assert that
great scripts don't have inciting incidents, and that all bad ones do.
That, on the face of it, doesn't sound like a reasonable position to
take.  Did I misinterpret?  

You also seem to eschew using an outline.  I agree that its a good idea
to know where you're going, and that sometimes it's not possible.  But,
"the thrill is the trip there" doesn't seem to support your point.  The
Formula Folks (TM) may suggest using an outline, but their main tenent
is the structure of the finished script, not the process.  It's also
been my experience that outlines can change while a work is in progress.

I'm not familiar with Mr. McGee, but I've never heard any of the Formula
Folks say it's easy or a shortcut.  Anyone who says _any_ kind of
writing is easy should be avoided, IMHO.  

Your argument sounds like it's more about good movies vs. bad movies
than formula writing.  IMHO it depends on the writers measure of
success.  If her goal is to have a script produced, and all they are
buying is formula scripts...well.  Please correct me if I've
misunderstood.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Indecision is the key to flexibility.
fish@hpscit.hp.com             |