From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:44:53 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1926

From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Subject:Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:09:30 GMT

>> >[In] Judaism, the concept of sin is a private one, and does not lend itself 
>(if
>> >you'll pardon the pun) to analogies with bank accounts where Jesus can
>> >transfer others' sins to his account.
>>
>> [...]
>> ?  It also says in Psalm 49:7-9:  "No man can by any means redeem his
>> brother, or give to God a ransom for him -- for the redemption of his soul
>> is costly, and he should cease trying forever -- that he should live on
>> eternally; that he should not see the pit."
>>
>If you interpret the psalm this way, then it proves my point.  Since "No man
>can ... redeem his brother, or give his ransom," only an individual can
>atone for his own sins.  No one else can do this.

When I wrote the above, I expected you to reply exactly as you did.  But you
didn't read it carefully.  The reason no man can redeem his brother's soul
is given: it is because it is TOO COSTLY, so that even if he tried forever,
he could never pay for it.  That's how deeply in debt each of us is to God.

You may not realize it, but elsewhere the Tanakh does say that each man will
die for his own sin.  But the overall theme is that everyone is in sin,
everyone deserves to die for it, and God won't make you pay for someone
else's sin.  Your death is for your own sin.  Not only is your brother's sin
too costly to redeem, but you can't even redeem your own soul (otherwise
you could pay off your debt and not be deserving of death).  Only a sinless
One can pay for the sins of others.

>> deeds are like a filthy garment ..." (Isaiah 64:6).  Again, Isaiah 59:2
>> says: "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
>> and your sins have hid His face from you, so that He does not hear."  What
>> is the result?  According to Ezekiel 18:4, THE SOUL WHO SINS WILL DIE.
>>
>> Now, just when did Adonai change His mind, and say sin isn't so bad any more,
>> it's just a private matter betwen men, and doesn't affect one's relationship
>> with God?
> 
>I didn't say that sin is seen only as a private matter between men.  I said
>(see above) that sin is a private matter, and no other man can become
>involved in it.  as part of the process of Teshuvah, man (and woman) must
>come to terms with God as well, but the important part that is stressed is
>the social aspect of unresolved conflicts between members of the community.
>Judaism sees a sin against a fellow man as a sin against God as well.
>Until the sin is resolved between the people, then it is not resolved with
>god, either.

It is good to stress the lateral relationships.  Don't think I'm discounting
that.  In the B'rit Chadashah, Yeshua said that if you're praying or making
and offering to the Lord, and remember that your brother has something
against you, first go and be reconciled to your brother, then come and make
your offering to God.  (Hey, Yeshua is JEWISH, after all!)

>So where is the basis for the claim that it is a Jewish concept that sin can
>be transferred?

What do you think was happening when the priest slew the bull and sprinkled
the blood on the people and the altar?  What did it mean when he confessed
the sins of the people on the scapegoat and sent it off into the wilderness
to die?  How can you miss the very central theme of Judaism?  I'm talking
about real Judaism, the Judaism with the blood and the sacrifices for sin,
not the cheap substitute the Rabbis have tried to sell you, which has its
heart and soul cut out.

>Isaiah is referring to the people who bring false sacrifices to the Temple,
>who think that the sacrifice alone, without the process of Teshuvah, can
>atone for the sins.  Isaiah says that such sacrifices are worthless.  He is
>not saying that this is a permanent state of being for humans.  In the
>preceding chapter (Isaiah 58) the prophet rails against the practice of
>fasting with no accompanying repentance (Vs 8):
> 
>"Is this the fast day that I
>would choose?. . .Is this what you would call a fast, and a day acceptable
>to God?  This is the fast that I choose: loose the bonds of evil adnd loosen
>the yoke, let the oppressed go free and to break every yoke.  to share your
>bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; if you
>see a naked man, you shall clothe him, and not to ignore your own flesh."
>[Then what happens?]
>Then your light will spring forth as the dawn, and your healing will sprout
>quickly; your righteousness will go before you, and the honor of God will
>follow you. __And You Will Call And God Will Answer; You Will Pleaad and He
>Will Say 'I Am Here'; if you will remove from yourself opression and the
>pointing of the finger and the speaking of evil"

Amen!  How I love God's Word!

>And later on, the true repenter will have his bones strengthened and he will
>become as a garden full of water, the ultimate blessing in arid Israel.

Amen!

>So what is the measure of repentance from sin for Isaiah?  Not sacrifices,
>not transfer of sin, but committing good deeds for the people who are more
>unfortunate than you.

It's similar to the concept Ya'akov (James) emphasizes in the B'rit Chadashah,
when he says: "... A person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one
point, has become guilty of breaking them all.  For the One who said, 'Don't
commit adultery,' also said, 'Don't murder.'  Now if you don't commit adultery
but do murder, you have become a transgressor of Torah. ... What good is it,
my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it?
Is such 'faith' able to save him?  ... Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied
by actions is dead. ... You believe 'God is one'?  Good for you!
The demons believe it too -- the thought makes them shudder with fear!  But,
foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such 'faith' apart from actions
is barren?"  (James chapter 2.)

Psalm 51:16-17 says: "You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would
give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.  The sacrifices of God are
a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

Notice it's not the heart that says, "I am acceptable to God by my works
of tzedekah" which God accepts.  Those are the hearts He's talking about in
the verses you quoted.  In vain do they sacrifice, when their hearts are far
from Him!  Sacrifice -- and acts of tzedekah -- apart from teshuvah and
true sorrow over sin are worthless.

Yeshua and His talmidim once observed a Parush praying publicly, exalting
himself to God, and saying, "God, I thank you that I am not like him!"  The
"him" was a degraded sinner nearby, who went into a private place, fell
before God and beat his chest, and said: "God, have mercy on me, a sinner!"
Yeshua said the sinner, not the Parush, went away justified before God.

The requirement of teshuvah does not nullify the requirement for kapparah,
for blood atonement.  But sacrifice without teshuvah is worthless.  When
men truly repent in sorrow, and turn from their wicked ways, and let Him
be Lord of their personal lives, the sacrifice is acceptable.

And yet the blood of bulls and goats could never take away a man's sin,
since bulls and goats are not men.  One of us -- but without sin -- had
to be the substitute, and the animal sacrifices were a sort of promise to
pay.  But since we could not pay, as Isaiah points out (chapter 53), God
paid our debt for us, by becoming one of us, yet without sin, to take our
place, when we deserved death.  Now if a man repents and turns from sin,
and accepts that sacrifice, and allows Adonai to be Lord of his life, then
that sacrifice is accepted on his behalf.  Yet, as Ya'akov points out, we
cannot invoke Yeshua's sacrifice without true repentance and sincere faith
with is evidenced by resulting action.  The actions are not what saves us.
We cannot pay our debt, or earn forgiveness.  But forgiveness is extended
on the basis of the debt having been paid in full on our behalf when we
repent and accept it.

>>  He said in Leviticus 17:11 that it is the blood that makes
>> atonement.  When did God change that?  Since when does saying "I'm sorry"
>> satisfy the Lord's justice?
>>
>Here (in Isaiah) we just saw that blood and fasting cannot atone for sins;
>it must be accompanied by social acts of kindness and repentance.

It *is* the blood that atones -- in the case of Yeshua, it is the blood that
*removes* sin (the animals' blood could merely atone, not remove) -- but there
is no atonement without accompanying repentance.  Otherwise God would be
contradicting Himself.

>> >> Don't forget that the first three commandments (Deut. 5:6-15) deal with
>> >> direct responcibility to God, not to other people. You can't get your
>> >> sins against God forgiven without a sacrifice. What you say above, is
>> >> not based on Tanach.
>> >
>> >That's true; it's not based _entirely_ upon the Tanach.  But Judasim is not
>> >based entirely on the Tanach.  there are many layers of interpretations
>> >(Mishnah, Gemarah, Shulchan 'Aruch, commentaries, Shu"t =questions and
>> >answers, and so on and so forth. . .) that have aquired the weight of law,
>> >and sometimes supersede or reinterpret the Tanach.  So you cannot say that
>> >if something is not based on Tanach, then it is not Jewish.
>>
>> Thus, the word of the rabbis supersedes the Word of God.  Rightly did Yeshua
>> say to the P'rushim (Mark 7:13), "With your tradition which you had handed
>> down to you, you nullify the Word of God!"  And again, in Matthew 15:6-9
>> He quotes Isaiah 29:13, saying
>>
>> 	By your tradition you make null and void the word of God!  You
>> 	hyprocrites!  Yesha'yahu was right when he prophesied about you,
>> 	"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
>> 	away from me.  Their worship of me is useless, because they teach
>> 	man-made rules as if they were doctrines."
> 
>Yes.  But Isaiah is talking about those who say one thing and think another,
>who perform false sacrifices and fasts, while ignoring the more important
>social laws protecting the weak.

There is that, too.  And Yeshua constantly pointed out their hypocrisy.  But
that's not exactly what He's getting at here.  Nor is it what Isaiah means.
Notice it says their worship is useless *because* they teach man-made
rules (such as the Oral Tradition) as if they were doctrines, i.e., as if
they were God's Word.  They seek to be justified by their actions, by their
adherence to a strict Rabbinic code, rather than through sincere repentance
(which begins with recognizing that one is a sinner and deserving of death)
and acceptance of God's payment for that sin.  Now, when Yeshua said this,
He had not yet died, so He is not even accusing them of rejecting what He
was about to do for the world -- how could they be guilty of that?  He was
accusing them of perverting Judaism, of offering empty worship and vain
sacrifices out of tradition, when their hearts were not right before God.
They had already begun developing an attitude of self-righteousness, rather
than reliance on God for justification.

>The interpretation of the Tanach is in order to adapt the word of God, given
>however many thousands of years ago, to modern day life, be it in the 20th
>century or in 2nd Temple Israel.

Yes, and this is where Rabbinic Judaism is missing it.  Man cannot change God
or His Word and adapt it for his own convenience.  "Modern day life" doesn't
change the heart of man.  The humanists and atheists are saying the same thing
as the RJ's!  You can dress man up in a business suit and a red Corvette,
surround him with computers and LANs, zoom him around in SST's and let him
talk to other men across the globe via satellite, and it doesn't make him
any better.  Sin is sin, and men are sinners today as always.  The heart of
man is desperately wicked, who can know it?  (So says the Tanakh.)  Man is
the same, God is the same, and man's dilemma is the same.  Man cannot pay
for his sin.  God had to do it for us.

We don't need to adapt the Word of God to us.  We need to adapt ourselves to
the Word of God.  "I AM THE LORD, I CHANGE NOT."  Guess who has to change? :-)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany