From: bavafa@netcom.com (Hooshyar Naraghi)
Subject: Re: Physics-1A Question
Organization: This is a _real_ topic
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 06:55:46 GMT

In article <BvosD1.3u4@news.udel.edu> keivan@brahms.udel.edu (Keivan Esfarjani) writes:
>In article <1992Oct4.223616.19578@netcom.com> bavafa@netcom.com (Hooshyar Naraghi) writes:
>>In article <BvL5KH.Irr@news.udel.edu> keivan@brahms.udel.edu (Keivan Esfarjani) writes:
>Howdi HooshyAr AghA,

Hi again Keivan.

>>>>Let me conclude by asking 'how do we KNOW for sure that matter exists?'
>>>
>>Fine, then first tell me how do you DEFINE matter? (and no, I don't
>>>know what you mean! :-)
>>
>>I lost you!  Do we need to define it before we can know it?  I myself
>
>Well you are the one who talks about it, so you should have
>a definition for matter in your mind!

Well, I talk about it because I am told so from the time I remember
studying Physics.  My definition was what I had earlier noted, that is by
being able to measure properties of matter we humans learn or conclude that
matter exists.  Is this a definition or a statement, to your opinion?

I guess I should (very serious, OK?) clarify that I am not hiding anything
in that I really don't know what to make out of matter.  That was the _real_
reason I posted the question at the first place.  The business of KNOW was
a by-product of the discussion.  So let us not loose the appropriateness of
the discussion in lue of a momentary 'mezAh.' 

Let me ask this question to understand you:  Are you suggesting that one has
to be able to _define_ matter before s/he can question or even conclude that
s/he _knows_ it exists?  So does ability to define is a requirement or pre-
requisite to the ability to know?  These are simply questions.  I do not
have any answer to them, of course because I don't have a solid Physics
background.

>>don't know how to define matter.  I just want to know now that - with your
>>blessing above - the properties of matter are not the reason why we humans
>>believe matter exists, then how do we know it exists.
>
>See, the definition is important here: if you say matter is what our
>senses can detect, then it exists by definition since we can sense it.
>Now if you don't like that and have another definition for it, please
>tell us.

Actually, I could like what you said, that is 'matter is what our senses
can detect.'  I can assure you I have no definition in my 'Astin.'  The
whole exercise was to gain a 'ghatreh' more knowledge.  So if I take the
above quotation, do you think that I have established that 'I KNOW that
matter exists?'  I am trying to establish the precedence here, i.e., 
which one is first: definition or knowledge?

==========================  For all other readers =======================
I begin to sense that the subject could 'meyl' to a philosophical 
discussion, but I was really interested to hear how science in general 
appoaches it.  So I hope it does not bore our 'ahAli.' [(c) amoo, 92 - an
institutionalized copyright]
==========================================================================

>>To me the properties of matter were like pointers.
>>
>>You see I lost my pointers to matter when we concluded that these properties
>>are not the reason.  I am trying to look for _something_ else to show me
>
>well you could say the very reason why pointers exist is the existence 
>of the variables to which they point, obviously!!

'ghorbooneh Adam chiz fahm!'  So are suggesting that pointers exist because
variables exists? 

>>>One possible proof along the line of Descartes' would go as follows:
>>>"I think, therefore matter exists" 

>>But, you just said it all.  Descartes statement seems to agree with what I
>>said just one line earlier.  "I think, therefore, God exists."
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I must have included [(c) bavafa, 1355] at the end of above quote.  This is
from me [:-)] not 'dekArt khAn.'

>You know that he says "I think therefore I am"!

Yes.  I meant to adapt his way of logic.  The intension was not to make a 
point simply by siding with what he had said.  I hope I did not mislead
you by misquoting the man.  I should have included the usual (c) notice for
clarity.  My apologies.

>>It seems to me if I did not think, matter wouldn't exist.  The existence of
>>matter is _within_ me.  So if humans did not exist, there wouldn't be a
>>matter.  As a matter of fact there wouldn't be a discussion of matter.
>
>True, matter exists only for those who can "detect" or "observe" it; 
>otherwise the existence or non-existence of it would be meaningless.

Interesting.  So even the KNOWLEDGE could be relative.  For example, cows
don't know that matter exists, so for them matter does not exist.  But for
us humans it exists.  This is another topic by itself, because one could
argue that even cows could "detect" and "observe" the matter.

[Hey, I am serious, OK?  If you are going to accuse me simply replace the
word cow with towsan [(c) Shahrokh] or joojeh [(c) Mahin] ]

Can I record your above statement?  Well, save it for future use?  I can
live with it.  Of course this is one possible way of looking at it.

>>Could matter be just an 'image in us' as much as was suggested here at one
>>time that God was an image we had drawn in our minds?
>
>I think so; I think what we are perceiving in this universe could be 
>only a "representation" of our real being.
>
>>PS.  I hope it is understood that this is still a sci-general-purpose line
>>of discussion, and that it is not between me and K1.
>
>And finally, I am glad that Mahin finally spoke out and you won your
>chelowkabAb at Meykadeh. Ey siAsatmadAr! All this time mA ro film
>kardeh boodi hA?! All thesee physics 1-A titles were for that too?!
>Weren't you educated by ingilis-hA? :-)

No, I am educated by 'akhoonds' in the post-revolutionary era. :-) :-)
C'mon, you met me.  Do you think I am that intelligent?  WOW [(c) Naghmeh]
perhaps I better run for November 4th before it gets to late.  :-)

Really, there was no 'film.'  As I said the KNOW business came up as a
by-product.  There has been a _ligitimate_ question here at sci as how
do we KNOW God exists. I felt that the question did not receive any kind
of worthy attention, specially in the light of those who tried to offer
their _hearsays_ points.

So I thought by asking a question about matter, we could conduct a
similar discussion without being worried about having difference of
opinions for once the subject was revolving around science it would have
become immune (we hope!) from other personal attacks, just at the time
when my friend picked on the KNOW phrase and linked it to Mahin/Seyyed
episode.  After all it's just a chelowkabab after a good Sunday football!

[BTW, I am Iranian becuase the above paragraph included one LOOOOOOOOOONG
sentence.  It counted for 41/48 or 87% of the paragraph.  This ain't an
art no more.]

I still enjoy the actual topic.  BTW, I would like to thank those who have
so far shed some light on this tread.  It has helped me to re-evaluate my
pointers (No, I ain't do C.  This I really KNOW).

Regards,
Hooshyar F. Naraghi
bavafa@netcom.com
(415) 322-8056

Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian