From: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: RE:WOMEN EQUALITY
Date: 24 Dec 92 17:51:58 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Dec21.175450.8265@newstand.syr.edu>, tkoprulu@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Tacettin Koprulu) writes:
|> 
|> >woman as a rule, is not so experienced in practical life as man.
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------
|> 
|> Who says that? Why as a rule? What kind of society we're talking about? 

It has to be seen in the *context of the whole* article. The society it
were talking about was the kind of society an Islamic one would have.

|> 
|> >This lack of experience may cause a  loss to any party in a given
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> 
|> >contract. So the Law requires that  at least two women should bear
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> 
|> Why at least two? DO WE HAVE PREJUDICE AGAINST WOMEN'S INTELLECTUAL 
|> 
|> ABILITY?  I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THIS POINT.  
|> 

:-)..... Please........

It has *nothing* to do with prejudice against women`s intellectual 
ability but is rather a way to not let people who think male are 
smarter than woman to disqulify the contract with childish arguments 
like that.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(2:282)"O you who believe! when you deal with each other in
contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a
scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe
should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should
write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be
careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything 
from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, 
or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his
guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among
your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then *one
man and two women* from among those whom you choose to be
witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two
may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when
they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is)
small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more
equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in
testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may *not entertain
doubts* (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which
you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then
there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have
witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be
done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely
it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to
Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things."

The way I understand it is that it is mainly to prevent "doubts" among
people. You see there are people who after signing a contract may later
clame it has been changed and thus isn't correct anymore. So what should 
you do about it?? Well you bring one of the witnesses. And if then the 
person is claiming the witness is lying you bring the other one. But if 
the other witness is a woman this person may claim that she is "only" a 
woman and has propably made it up by herself, not enough experience e.t.c.
This should naturally not be accepted as an answer but to prevent this 
kind of slimy move you have two women as witnesses so that you then will 
be able to say:" Ok let us accept that she made it up but what about the 
other one?? She also?? Give me a break..". 

Do you see the logic in it?? There shouldn't really be a need for a sec-
ond woman but there are some men who despite what they are learnt think 
men are smarter than woman and that kind of stuff. So how do you handle a
situation like that?? Well, you get another woman to prove the other ones
statements.... And then this is a minimum of witnesses, you can have much
more if you want too. 

Secondly it is desirable that the men (women) who are chosen as witnesses
shold be from the circle to which the parties belong, as they would best 
be able to understand the transaction, and be most easily available if 
their evidence is required in the future.

So it has nothing to do with "one man equals two women" but is instead a
way to stop people from trying to find ways to break the contracts they 
have signed by claiming the opponent has been lying or changed the written 
document or something like that.

Let us say that one of the two persons who agreed on the contract together
with one of the witnesses claim something to be in the contract which 
wasn't really there. Then the other one brings the female witness which 
says that the other witness is not telling the truth. Then in a court or 
something like that the question concerning experience in public afffairs
e.t.c. may be a point on which the desicion on who is telling the truth 
may be based on. So in this kind of situation the lying male witness may 
win the case based on his experience and that "everyone knows him" and 
thus a lie may be accepted to be truth. To stop situations like this one 
more woman is appointed as a witness so that it would be easier to see 
who is right. If you look at it in this way you may understand it easier.
So suddenly there are three witnesses instead of only two.

Think about it for a while and you will see the wisdom in it.

|> 
|> >witness with one man. if a woman of the witness forgets something,
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------
|> >the other one would remind her. Or if she makes an error, due to
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------
|> >lack of experience, the other would help to correct her. This is a
|> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >precautionary measure to guarantee honest transactions and proper
|> >dealings between people. In fact, it gives woman a role to play in
|> >civil life and helps to establish  justice. At any rate, lack of
|>                                                           ------- 
|> >experience in civil life does not necessarily mean that women is
|>  -------------------------- 
|>  WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT I UNDERSTAND IS THAT IN A MALE 
|>  DOMINATED SOCIETY WOMEN HAVE LESS CHANCE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
|>  THAN THE MEN HAVE. BUT ISN'T IT AN ASSUMPTION ABOUT A MALE 
|>  DOMINATED SOCIETY? IF I AM NOT WRONG WHY ALL WOMEN? MY MOTHER
|>  IS A LAWYER AND SHE HELPS PEOPLE TO MAKE CONTRACTS INSTEAD OF 
|>  GETTING HELP FROM MALE WHILE SHE DOES HER JOB.

See the comments above........

The reason why it is ok for your mother is because nowadays we have
an institution (Lawyers e.t.c.) who take care of theses kind of things.
But there shouldn't be any need for lawyers who do these kind of things.
I and you should be able to sign a contract without any lawyers and even
without any witnesses, if we were truly Muslims we wouldn't even need the
contract. A handshake would be sufficent.

But as there will always be people who don't keep their part of the contract
something has to be done about it.

Why pay a lawyer when you can do it simplier as written in (2:282) in the
holy Quran???? Do you understand what I mean??? I hope you don't look at it 
as if I`m trying to make your mother without a job.. :-).... 
 
Muhammed (peace be upon him) was given the solutions to all the problems 
exactly as Jesus (peace be upon him) says in (John 16:13) that the Comforter/
Spirit of Truth will have.

(John 16:13)"But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, *HE WILL GUIDE
YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH*. For He will not speak His own message; but
He will tell whatever He hears (* from God *), and He will announce
and declare to you the things that are to come."

|> 
|> >12.  The Muslim woman is always associated with an old tradition
|> 
|> >known as the "veil". It is Islamic that the woman should beautify
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------   
|> >herself with the veil of honor, dignity, chastity, purity and
|> --------------------------------------------------------------
|> >integrity. She should refrain from all deeds and gestures that
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------
|> >might stir the passions of people other than her legitimate husband
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >or cause evil suspicion  of  her morality. She is warned not  to
|> -------------------------------------------
|> >display her charms or expose her physical attractions before
|> >strangers. The veil which she must put on is one that can save her
|>               ------------------------------------------------------
|> >soul from weakness, her mind from indulgence, her eyes from lustful
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------
|> >looks, and her personality from demoralization. Islam is most
|> ------------------------------------------------
|> >concerned with the integrity of woman, with the safeguarding of her
|> >morals and morale and with the protection of her character and
|> >personality (cf. Qur'an, 24:30-31).
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> BY HIDING HER BEHIND A VEIL, I  DO NOT THINK WOMEN CAN PREVENT 
|> EVIL SUSPICION OF THEIR MORALITY, IT EVEN AROUSES MORE CURIOSITY
|> FOR A MAN. THE MORE A WOMAN IS HIDDEN, THE MORE SHE IS DESIRED,
|> AND TALKED ABOUT. 

So you mean they should go naked instead to not arise too much curiosity???
8-O.....

There are a lot of sexmaniacs and rapists running around in every big city 
here in the West. Why??? Has it maybe something to do with getting all this 
sexual things into your head so that some people who want more get a strange
idea to get more.

The same kind of things happen in the so called Muslim countries too (not 
to the same extent but it happens sometimes) but which are the reasons for 
it???
Just take a look at MTV and you will understand that a sexually instabel 
person may get some weird ideas.
 
But lets get back to the veil. You see it has different functions. 

Over here in the West we have for example very big problems with anorexia 
and sicknesses like that. Woman is constantly programmed that she should 
look in a special way and this way is actually something which males like 
us has been feeding them with. You should look like this. If you want a 
man look like this!!!!! Show that!!!!!! (actually more showing than hide-
ing nowadays... ;-) ).

You don't have to be a feminist to understand that the world we live in to-
day is a mans world. If a woman want people to take her for who she really 
is and not for how she looks she has to think about what she wears. The veil 
is a very good thing when it comes to things like that...... 

But instead we have alot of preoccupied women who waste hours after hours 
too look nice and try to at least *seem* to look like Cindy Crawford & Co. 

The next time you go to a party or something like that then look at the
men who come with their women who are dressed up sexy. And then try to 
imagen that you are on a market and someone comes with his camels or with 
his Lambourgini... Any similitudes??? It is like a hunter who is showing his 
friends this is what I got, this is what I fuck every night, what about you??? 
And his wife walk around next to him like, yeah he fucks me... It is actually 
very ridicolous and childish behaviour which even the animals are above. If 
another male even looks or tries to approach one of his females he gets attack-
ed at once. So the next time you go to a party or something else try to imagen 
yourself being on the marketplace and you will understand what I mean.... There 
are alot of similitudes....

The things I don't understand is how the females accept it. Either they are to 
programmed by the pictures we males have been pushing into their heads through 
media e.t.c or else they compare themselves with the rest of the women (or more 
correct both things). Here am I and I have this beautiful dress and new makeup 
which it took me around three hours to put on. And it feels so great when other 
males look at me. That really builds up my selfconsciousness and I feel that I'm 
still young and have not lost my sexual appeal. And then when the years go they 
can't accept that they are 60 but instead bath topless (well at least over here 
in Sweden) and walk around with clothes which a fifteen year old girl wears, 
just to look young. They buy and use things which will make them look younger 
and seem to think they wont grow old. 

I agree looks are important but not *that* important.....

It is actually the ways of Rulers to make their citizent occupied with looks
and stuff like that so that they don't use their time with things that are of 
greater importance. Get knowledge and change the system into a better one......

And then the question concerning clothes in Islam isn't only something connected 
to women but there are also rules concerning what we male should hide so to say... 
(Guess what???)...

|> ABOVE ARE TOO STRONG FOR TODAY'S PUBLIC LIFE. AND THEY DO
|> CONSTITUTE NO MEANING FOR THOSE  WHO BELONG TO A FAMILY OF WHICH 
|> FEMALE MEMBERS DO NOT COVER THEIR FACES WITH VEIL IN PUBLIC.
|> 

I agree it is harder over here in the West to have the veil specially 
when it isn`t even worn in our own countries were the majority claim to
be Muslims. But our aim as Muslims (i.e Submitting to the Will of Allah)
should be to with the help of knowledge implement the Laws of Allah and 
create a state based on true Islam.

|> 
|>  I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING TOLD ABOVE. BUT WHATEVER IS TOLD ABOVE
|>  ASSUMES A MAN DOMINATED SOCIETY WHERE FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY BELONGS 
|>  MOSTLY TO MEN. THIS IS A VERY CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT DUTY WHICH 
|>  DETERMINES MAN'S DOMINANCE OVER WOMAN SINCE WOMAN IS AUTOMATICALLY 
|>  TIED TO MAN'S INCOME AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT. WHAT ABOUT SOME EXCEPTIONAL
|>  SITUATIONS WHERE WOMAN HAS TO EARN MONEY BECAUSE OF HER HUSBAND'S 
|>  INCAPABILITY? I DO NOT SEE ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH A SITUATION ABOVE,
|>  THEN I MUST SAY THIS TIME WOMAN DOMINATES MAN BECAUSE SHE IS THE 
|>  PROVIDER OF THE HOUSE NOW. THEN THE STABILITY OF THE FAMILY IS MORE
|>  SUSCEPTIBLE AND UNSTABLE IN A MAN DOMINATED SOCIETY WHICH IS DESCRIBED
|>  ABOVE.  
|> 


As a relationship is (normally) built on giving and taking it is up to the 
husband and his wife if they agree on something else. If a woman want to 
work and be free economically then it is up to them to disscus about it and 
reach an agreement. They are both responsible infront of Allah for their child-
ren but the difference is that the man also is economically responsible which 
the woman isn't. The man will be questioned for this on the Judgment Day while 
the woman wont.

But if they can agree on something else then they will both be judged 
according to that by God on the Day of Judgment.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(42:38)" Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular prayer; 
who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; ...."

One of the qualities that those who wish to serve God should have is to 
*CONDUCT THEIR AFFAIRS BY MUTUAL CONSULTATION*. This means that their 
conduct in life should be open and determined by mutual consultation be-
tween those who are entitled to a voice; e.g, in private domestic affairs, 
as between husband and wife; in State affairs, as between rulers and 
ruled, etc.

The first wife of Muhammed (peace be upon him), Khadija (may she rest in peace) 
was a bussineswoman so if that should have taught us Muslims something then it 
is that Islam hasn't anything against women working, i.e. under certain circum-
stances (i.e. no "massageinstitutes").....

|> 
|> Not: Sorry for using CAPS'ed characters, I just wanted to attract attention
|> in the text where my words pass. 

:-)...I got the feeling you were shouting at me....

Btw if you find something in this article to not be in acordance with the type
of words a normal Muslim would use (specially referring to the "market-lambour-
gini" stuff) then it is because I'm born and have lived to long here in the West 
so it has had a negative influence on me.......

Wassalam
Gani Skepi
d89-gsk@nada.kth.se


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(SAHIH MUSLIMIN)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: 
He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it
with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do 
it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength 
enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, 
and that is the least of faith."
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