From: smoon@strfleet.gsfc.nasa.gov (Sang J. Moon)
Subject: Re: Macs cost too much (NOT!)
Organization: NASA GSFC Code 534.3
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:12:36 GMT

In article <ewright.711925511@convex.convex.com>, ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
> 
> In <1992Jul23.143042.14243@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> smoon@strfleet.gsfc.nasa.gov (Sang J. Moon) writes:
> 
> >I've been using System 7 with tuneup 1.1.1 for about 6 months now, and I've
> >had to reinstall system 7 and/or rebuild the desktop file an average of
> >twice a month.  With 75MB of stuff on my hard drive, this has been the
> >biggest waste of my time.  
> 
> Oh, rubbish.  Your PC-bigot friends might be willing (happy!) to
> belive this, but keep in mind that this is comp.sys.mac and most
> of the people here have actually used Macs.
> 
> I've had System 7.0 on my since the day it was released.  I have 140M
> on my hard drives, over 100M of which is used, not to mention gigabytes
> of CD-ROM.  I have never once had to reinstall System 7 in that time.  
> (Never even had to rebuild the desktop, for that matter.)  If you have
> to reinstall the system twice a month, you must be doing something
> exceptionally stupid, like dragging system components into the trash
> can and ignoring the warning messages.  

I'm happy that you never encountered a need to reinstall System 7, but that
does not mean someone else did not have to.  I am pretty sure that I am
not the only one who has had to reinstall system 7 several times if the
many problem articles I see in the comp.sys.mac hierarchy are legit.  It
may be that my mac is more subject to problems because I do far more than
just plug and run software.

> You also snuck a lie in sideways.  You talk about reinstalling the
> system and rebuilding the desktop together, as if these are both 
> jobs of equivalent complexity.  In fact, all you have to do to
> rebuild the desktop is to hold down a modifier key during startup.
> Pretty hard, isn't it?

You have never rebuilt your desktop in system 7 so you don't know
what you are talking about.  As far as I know, there is no modifier
key you can hold down in System 7 to rebuild the desktop.  I received
an extension from someone which allows me to automatically delete
the desktop FILE on startup.  Since you have never rebuilt a desktop
file, you do not know how long it takes.  I have 75MB of stuff, and
it definitely takes a very long time for it to finish.  If you really
want it, I'll even time it for you.

> Finally, you can't "rebuild the desktop file" in System 7 because
> there *is* no desktop file.  The desktop is now a database, not a
> file.  I only mention this because I thought, since you claim to
> be a programmer working on a Master's degree, that you might have
> some idea what you're talking about.   

All your articles have consistently been directed at degrading someone
who disagrees with what you believe to be true rather than expanding on
subject on hand.  If you want to flame me personally, do it in alt.flame
or through email; otherwise keep this a civil discussion.  Database
information is stored in files, and anyone playing with resedit can see
the desktop file(s?).

> >Installing software takes just about the same time.  
> 
> Double rubbish.
> 
> Macintosh: Drag an application icon into a folder or (worst case)
> double-click to run the installer.  
> 
> PC: Read the documentation to figure out the command line to run
> the installer.  (By the time you've finished this step, the Mac
> user is already finished.)  Type the command line and run the
> installer.  Now you have to install the icons in the Program
> Manager and perhaps create a new program group.  Then check the
> CONFIG.SYS, WIN.INI, and AUTOEXEC.BAT files to see what modifications
> the installer made there.  Then check every other piece of software
> to make sure it still works with the modifications.  If it doesn't,
> call technical support and try to work out some reasonable compromise
> in the CONFIG.SYS, WIN.INI, and AUTOEXEC.BAT that will allow both
> programs to run.
> 
> Bestcase time for the Mac -- a few seconds.  
> Bestcase time for the PC -- a few minutes.
> Worstcase time for the Mac -- a few minutes.  
> Worstcase time for the PC -- several weeks.

So far you've given opinions without substance.  Installing software on
a mac can be as much a chore as on a PC.

Example: Symantic Antivirus for the Macintosh

You have to read the instructions to install this properly because you
have to:
1. Run a disk repair program to insure the hard drive is okay.
2. Run SAM from the diskette on the hard drive first.
3. Install the control panel by dragging it to the extension folder
   and making an alias which you put into the control panel folder.
4. Install the virus definition in the system folder.
5. Drag copy SAM somewhere.
6. Reboot
7. Personalise both SAM an the control panel separately the first
   time you run them.

Installing software on a mac can take definitely much more than a few
minutes, and just clicking on the installer is not enough.

Example: Microsoft Word 5.0, Microsoft Excel 4.0, etc.

Installing software on a PC can be just as easy as on a mac.

Example: Microsoft Word for Windows, WordPerfect, MacLinkPC, etc.

1. Install diskette in to drive a and type "a:install".

> >Anyone can see that macs have their share of problems by browsing 
> >through the comp.sys.mac hierarchy.  
> 
> Anyone who understands what he's reading will also understand
> that most of those problems arise from INITs that do sophisticated
> things, like replacing the standard window definitions, that you
> can't even do in Windows on the PC.
> 
> 
> >If you respond to this post, please list the system you bought and
> >how much you paid for it.  It shows what you actually have to back your
> >views.  
> 
> Very well.  This is what I've spent over the last two years:
> 
> Mac IIsi/40M HD/Apple RGB Monitor	$3000	
> FPU adapter card			   75
> Upgrade to 17M RAM			  400
> External 100M HD			  400
> 32-bit color board			  300
> CD-ROM drive			          300
> Developer's CD (500M+ of documentation,
>   tools, sample code, etc., updated 
>   quarterly)                              $36/yr.
> 12 Voyager CD ROMs 			  $90
> Hypercard, Quicktime, System Software	 Free
> MacRayshade, NIH Image			 Free
> 
> Plus a few hundred dollars for commercial software packages.  
> All prices are rounded off since I'm doing them from memory.
> 
> 
> >It may also show that you had much more money than I had to spend.
> >In which case, there should be no need for everybody yelling their heads
> >off because I too would buy a mac if I had that much money to spare.
> 
> Except that your claim was not that you can't afford a Mac because
> you don't have enough money.  It was that if you had enough money
> to afford a Mac, you could get a better PC for the same price.

No.  My claim has always been that Macintosh cost too much, and I can get
(and have gotten) an equivalent PC based system to do the same work I do
on a mac at a significantly lower price.  You have been pushing extras
that the mac gives like ADB, stereo sound, etc. which I admit are nice to
have but are meaningless at the price Apple charges.  The macintosh is a
nicer machine than the PC, but is it worth 2 to 3 times the price of a
corresponding PC?  In my opinion, no.  But you've got yours, and having
a larger wallet helps support your opinions.
Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.misc:13821 comp.sys.mac.system:10404