HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gwr@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: It fills us. We arrange it. It decays.
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:35:54 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

Fiona Webster writes:
[...]
|> 
|> Say...what do you suppose Wilde is getting at, when he says action is
|> "ignorant of its direction, being always at variance with its aim"?
|> I can't quite puzzle that out.
|> 

This made me think of Martin Buber's _I and Thou_.  Often one acts upon
a person when one really would like to "meet" him, that is, to treat him
as a subject, not an object (which is of course, really not "treating" 
him as any thing).  Perhaps another way to confuse the issue is to say
that in one's seeking to connect with the world, one is doomed at most
to experience it.

Yours in mysterious connexion,


-- 
Graham Redgrave    |    --  I don't speak for the government, 
gwr@life.lanl.gov  |        but I wish the government would speak for me ...  --
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: davidf@golem.waterloo.on.ca (David J. Fiander)
Subject: Re: Backhanded compliments and other things I get
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:50:41 GMT

According to spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius):
>Ah!  Obviously a reference to my handsome whiskers, although I'm sure if my
>contemporaries and collegues weren't such cultural illiterates, they'd recall
>Admiral Burnsides' admirable adornments, or opine that they were `Asimovian' 
>at very least.

Unfortunately, I've never seen a representation of the Admiral,
but I can assure you that Young makes Asimov look like he just
stepped out of boot camp.

- David
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Call For Discussion: rec.arts.books.reviewed
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:41:08 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>
>If you want to write reviews -- put then in r.a.b -- where they belong.
> 

	Agree.  Formal reviews are time-consuming and not that 
	easy to write, if you want to go beyond the plot-summary/
	quote/one-liner level.  I can think of only three posters
	(the Leepers and the gentleman who just passed the 200
	mark -- congrats!) who make a regular effort.  The volume 
	of the proposed group would be extremely low.  Nor is the
	volume on r.a.b. so high as to justify a split.  People
	committing zelonies can be eliminated quite easily with
	30 seconds of kill-file work, and what remains is quite
	reasonable. :)

	Perhaps more self-discipline could be asked of posters.
	My own new years resolution is to spend less
	time chatting on the net, and more time thinking about
	and composing thoughts about books, as I did a couple
	of days ago (except with perhaps a little more substance).

>I'll vote "no" to the new group.
> 

	Yo tambien.

>Mark

rms
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Git (was re: Et in Arcadia ego)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:00:57 GMT

	 vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni) writes:
>    Actually, if "Mr. Z" were to return, it would, I believe, be to the
>    _second_ world (a useful, but oddly unused, phrase). 
>
>    Besides, the only significant difference between Cambridge and the 
>    third world is that the third world is slightly better because there
>    are fewer mimes there.

	Whoa, hold on! I've lived in Cambridge for two years now and
*never* seen a mime - jugglers, yes, mimes, no. And surely the only
significant difference between Cambridge and the third world is that
Cambridge is slightly better because there are more bookstores here.

Keith
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morgan		 	|A nice man is a man of nasty ideas.
kamorgan@athena.mit.edu  	|		Jonathan Swift
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: psm1@quads.uchicago.edu (patricia sayre mccoy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Christmas books suggestions
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:27:39 GMT
Reply-To: psm1@midway.uchicago.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Here are my five recommendations for non-fiction books.  No
time to do the fiction ones now.  Maybe later.  All opin-
ions biased.  Flame away.

NON-FICTION

_Scramble for Africa_ by Thomas Pakenham. Random House, 1991. 
$32.00 Hardcover (soon to be released in paperback)
     Wonderful account of the political and social manuvering by
the European powers in order to colonize Africa.  Compares favo-
rably to _A Peace to End All Peace_ by David Fromkin (Avon Books
1989. $14.95 trade paperback)

History of Women in the West. Vol I, From Ancient Goddesses to
Christian Saints_ Georges Duby and Michelle Perrot, eds. Belk-
nap Press of Harvard University, 1992. #29.95, hardcover.
     Although "history of women" seems to be a topic that has
been done to death, this new vol offers new perspectives and topics
not covered by previous publications.  I especially enjoyed the
discussion of what a goddess was in ancient Greece, and the
discussion of the position of women in Roman law.

_History of Private Life. Vol IV, From the Fires of the Revolu-
tion to the Great War_ Michelle Perrot, ed.  Belknap Press of
Harvard University, 1990. $39.95, hardcover.
     I love surveys like this.  This volume covers the develop-
ment of middle class society in Europe, with particular emphi-
sis on France.  Topics covered include the development of the
idea of "home", the father figure, and the idea of vacations.
Very well illustrated, too.

_Ancestors, 900 Years in the Life of a Chinese Family_ by
Frank Ching. Fawcett Columbine, 1988. $12.95.
     The title says it all.  I find it incredible that one man
can trace his family back 900 years and still be able to locate
graves, monuments and memorials.  This is really fun to read
as well as enlightening.

_Dinosaurs, a global view_ by Sylvia J. and Stephen A. Czer-
kas. Mallard Press, 1990. No price on book but this is a 
huge book and probably in the $50.00 range.
     Actually, I haven't read this yet (does it still count?)
but I have looked at all the illustrations, many of them two
page spreads.  Great action pictures!  A must for any dinosaur 
fan.




-- 
Bitnet:                   uclpsm1@uchimvs1
Internet:         psm1@midway.uchicago.edu
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: excellent reading!
Date: 12 Dec 92 05:44:17 GMT
Organization: Moi?

In article <1992Dec11.222220.19978@netcom.com> tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>In article <11DEC92.12080999@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>Why Tom, you're so cute when you're mad!
>
>>Sorry to get you in such an agitated state, but really, if you're not prepared
>>to have people react to your statements, kindly keep them to yourself.  
>
>	Fuck off and die, Heather.
>
Ah, yes.  One of my favorite things about r.a.books is the reasoned discussion
of books that occurs here.  Someone can recommend (yeah, yeah, my typo with two
"c"s was just that, and thanks for not pointing it out) a book and in under 48
hours the conversation has transcended itself into this type of discourse.
It's impressive, though no one has mentioned Nazis yet (and this doesn't count.)

--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | Peace on Earth
                              | to people of goodwill.

CSUS depends on my every word.
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Lit Lunch
Date: 11 Dec 1992 21:23:21 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

The pleasure of your bookish company is requested at Charlie Brown's
at 11:30 am Tuesday, the 15th of December, 1992. Charlie B's in in the
Port of Redwood City on Seaport Blnd, which is the continuation of
the Woodside Road East of Hwy 101. CB's is about three-quarters of a
mile along Seaport Blvd. The Port entrance is controlled by lights,
and as you turn left across the track, the yacht harbor is to your
left. FELIX is immediately down to the left. Blue sail cover and some
green on the topsides and a black unstayed carbon-fiber mast set FELIX
off from the rest. CB's is about 150yds further on. Across the water
from CB -- perhaps another 100 yds -- is the largest salt pile in the
United States.

RSVP to francis@sep.stanford.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:22740 misc.books.technical:1786 alt.internet.services:2041 comp.org.eff.talk:7789
From: betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.books.technical,alt.internet.services,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: The Online BookStore Announcement: The Internet Companion
Date: 18 Dec 92 07:49:36 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

I've seen both books and I think they are complimentary. Krol's book
is a more thorough examination of resources, and the better book for
the moderately experienced computer user. LaQuey's book is lighter and
more readable, and has better explanations for the novice. I think
Krol's book is a little too "computer-bookish" for the total
net-newcomer. LaQuey's book is  a bit light for anyone who has spent a
fair amount of time on the Internet, but I want to READ it, because it
has a lot of interesting quotes.
  I'm getting Krol's book for myself, and LaQuey's book for my father.
Gonna read it before I mail it though! :-)

--
System Administrator                  Internet: betsys@cs.umb.edu
MACS Dept, UMass/Boston               BITNET:ESCHWARTZ%UMBSKY.DNET@NS.UMB.EDU
100 Morrissey Blvd                    Staccato signals
Boston, MA 02125-3393                      of constant information....
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: It fills us. We arrange it. It decays.
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Dec14.004047.1341@grebyn.com>
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:24:55

1. Did Conrad have a policy of never expressing opinions about his
contemporaries, even in letters or conversation?  I would be
interested in his opinion of Wilde, partly because his own writing
stemmed from such different premises about what is important in
human life.  How do you know Conrad's impressions of Wilde would
be entirely second hand?  Perhaps they were invited to the same
parties.  Perhaps they read each others stuff.

2. While I do like the Borgesian playfulness and often imagine
people of the past commenting on current situations, the Wilde-Conrad
question is not one of these.  Burroughs's influence on Wilde
is too exotic for me to find meaningful.

3. If I were your student, it seems to me that I would also get
exasperated.  Especially as I believe in real events, and I think
robots should be programmed to believe in them also.

4. I might or might not get around to reading Churchland and
Sejnowski.  However, I doubt it is something I have to read
in order to do my work.  Should I be mistaken about that someone
will tell me.  

The basic reason why I think I don't have to read it is that
my approach to AI involves studying the world and the problems
it presents rather than the human brain and how it solves problems.
Sooner or later the brain researchers are likely to discover
enough about the brain to give some clues about how the
problems the world presents *must* be solved, but they don't
seem close for now.  The secondary reason is that in the past
I have found Churchland vague and Sejnowski inclined to build
kludges and exaggerate their significance.  I'm referring
to Net-Talk.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: Call For Discussion: rec.arts.books.reviewed
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:15:06 GMT

All these comments about how rec.arts.books has too many "contro-
versial" (which I take to mean mostly not book-related) threads, and
not enough book reviews, started making me feel obscurely guilty 
(what? have I been slacking off here?), and so just for the sake
of getting some data, I looked through my own postings over the
past 15 weeks.  I used the entirely arbitrary criterion that
a "review" would be any discussion of one book, or related books
by one author, that was at least 1.5 to 2 full screens in length.
(I excluded all discussions of multiple books by different authors,
no matter how long or elaborate.)  What I came up with, was fifteen
reviews in all, or roughly one per week.  Now I know I haven't posted
nearly as frequently or as thoughtfully over the past few months as
have some other rabbers, so I'm sure we've had a great *many* reviews
here during that time period.  Not to mention all the ones on
alt.horror that don't get cross-posted: remember that alt.books.
reviews is not the only newsgroup other than r.a.b. that features
book reviews!

So it seems to me the problem must not be the frequency of reviews,
but rather their identifiability--that is, too many of the subject
headings don't shout out: "This is a review."  I admit that several
of my reviews were buried under such illuminating subject headings
as "have you read this book?"  :-) 

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about this
proposed newsgroup, but better labeling of review postings might
be a possible solution to this "problem."

					--yours in promoting
					   more and more bookiness,

							Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: boon@cc.uow.edu.au (Boon Chye Lee)
Subject: Biography of Dorothy L. Sayers?
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 01:23:44 GMT

I'd be grateful if anyone could direct me to a biography of Dorothy
Sayers.  I'm aware of James Brabazon's 1981 one, but any others
(earlier or later) and, if possible, publisher's details, would be 
appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Boon Lee
Economics Dept
University of Wollongong
Wollongong, New South Wales
Australia

E-mail: boon@uow.edu.au

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Whoops.
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:52:33 GMT


I think I just posted my .alias file, accidentally.

I apologize.

Mark

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Books with a sense of humor (was: A modest proposal)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 17 DEC 92 13:14:28 GMT



I wrote:

>>How about books by witty women?  THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ALICE B. TOKLAS 
>>by Gertrude Stein, for example.  Especially fun if you dislike Hemingway, 
>>as I do. 

Michael Wise wrote:

>A fat old lesbian living it up in Paris on her parent's 
>money and her brother's good taste, who can't write a line of prose beyond 
>a third grade reading level, meets a diligent young man decorated 
>for fighting in a foreign army, a journalist by day to keep food 
>on the table and a writer by night whose creations revolutionized the 
>way we think about prose, and explains to him how superior she is. 
>Hemingway-bashing at its finest; a dike might even call it literature. 

Apparently you have a chip on your shoulder about Stein.  Perhaps it's
difficult for you to admit the effect that a fat lesbian had on Hemingway's
development as a writer.  But Hemingway is not the center of the universe: 
Stein's influence on the rest of literature, and on art, is widely (if
sometimes grudgingly) acknowledged. 

Anyway, getting back to the book:  I have no particular interest in lesbians,
but even so, I consider the AUTOBIOGRAPHY to be one of the most entertaining
books I've ever read.  It's filled with great anecdotes about all sorts of
people, famous and obscure, from Picasso and Rousseau to cooks and soldiers. 
Here are just two:

     My [Alice's] father was a quiet man who took things quietly, although he
     felt them deeply.  The first terrible morning of the San Francisco fire
     I woke him and told him, the city has been rocked by an earthquake and
     is now on fire.  That will give us a black eye in the East, he replied
     turning and going to sleep again.  I remember that once when my brother
     and a comrade had gone horseback riding, one of the horses returned
     riderless to the hotel, the mother of the other boy began to make a
     terrible scene.  Be calm madam, said my father, perhaps it is my son who
     has been killed.

                                     *  *  *

     Then we went on and saw a Matisse.  Ah there we were beginning to feel
     at home.  We knew a Matisse when we saw it, knew it at once and enjoyed
     it and knew that it was great art and beautiful.  It was a big figure of
     a woman lying in among some cactuses.  A picture which was after the
     show to be at the rue de Fleurus.  There one day the five year old
     little boy of the janitor who often used to visit Gertrude Stein who was
     fond of him, jumped into her arms as she was standing at the open door
     of the atelier and looking over her shoulder and seeing the picture
     cried out in rapture, oh la la what a beautiful body of a woman.  Miss
     Stein used always to tell this story when the casual stranger in the
     aggressive way of the casual stranger said, looking at this picture, and
     what is that supposed to represent.


Great book.  Very funny.  Read it.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Wandering through a bookstore at lunchtime.
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:01:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Dec12.190147.25400
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <1992Dec10.042116.4063@csusac.csus.edu> yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot) writes:
>Maddox, "teddybearlike?"  I'm going to look again at Butchie, my teddy....

	Don't bother.  I don't look like a butch teddybear--no chrome stars or
spikes, etc.  (And isn't it difficult sleeping with all that?  Oh well, 
whatever turns you and your teddybear on.)


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
				Alex Alexander
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: The Devil's Dream
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 18:18:20 GMT

	Ted B Samsel writes

>I know, I know. All you literarios will scoff but this novel by
>Lee Smith is quite an accomplishment. It takes off from the 
>roots of what is now country music by following several families
>who parallel the actual development of this genre of music.

	I'm happy you posted this. I had read a review of this and
wanted to read it but forgot to write the title down. It really did
sound ingenious and charmingly off the beaten path.

Keith - who has Ernest Tubb singing "Walkin' the floor this Christmas"
on right this minute.




--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morgan		 	|A nice man is a man of nasty ideas.
kamorgan@athena.mit.edu  	|		Jonathan Swift
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: It fills us. We arrange it. It decays.
Organization: Clark University
Date: 15 DEC 92 02:28:19 GMT

Fiona writes:

>Action is not merely Wilde's "last resource": it's a tonic.  What a relief
>it is, to escape, even for a few hours, the ever-beating pulse of the
>observing mind, the trap of selfhood in which 
> 
>          ...wir: Zuschauer, immer, uberall 
>          dem allen zugewandt und nie hinaus! 
> 
>          Uns uberfullts.  Wir ordnens.  Es zerfallt. 
>          Wir ordnens wieder und zerfallen selbst. 
> 
>          ...we, spectators always, everywhere, 
>          looking at, never out of, everything! 
>          It fills us.  We arrange it.  It decays. 
>          We re-arrange it, and decay ourselves. 
> 
>And yet for all the existential _douleur_ it entails, that "dream" state 
>Wilde describes is where I have to make my dwelling-place.  I'm but a 
>visitor in the realm of action.  (Is this true for many of us booky 
>people?)  I only wish I could feel so confident as dear Oscar, about the 
>completion one finds in the realm of imagination. 

Have you ever seen the film "Barton Fink"?

Every writer should see it.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: Is a bimbo the modern name for hussy?
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:47:34 GMT

> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

>I'm beginning to get it.  Is a bimbo what a Valley girl become when
>she drops out of high school?

I thought all Vals, by *definition*, dropped out of high
school to pursue their bimbonic aspirations... :-)

>It seems that the use of bimbo to refer to males is not in popular
>use.

I *knew* I should have posted the complete entry in American
Heritage...

    2. Slang.  A vacuous person: "a male bimbo...who even has
    to be tutored...in the cliche's that comprise the basic
    interview" (George F. Will). [perhaps from Italian 'bimbo,'
    baby.]

...though GeorgeWillspeak is not a very reliable indicator of
"popular use"
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bobdev@hprpcd.rose.hp.com (Bob Devereaux)
Subject: Re: Comments on "A Prayer for Owen Meany"?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:29:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: HP - Systems Technology Division
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

In brief, I gave up on Owen Meany after maybe a hundred pages.  Chacun a
son gout, of course, but IMHO, Owen didn't hold a candle to the marvelous
GARP and CIDERHOUSE RULES.

Robert Devereaux
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Books for Christmas (was Call For Discussion: rec.arts.books.reviewed))
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:17:18 GMT

        Keith Morgan has attempted to start a list of books we would
recommend as Christmas gifts.  I will join in.
 
        Cormac McCarthy, _All the Pretty Horses_. I'll second this strongly.
                _Blood Meridian_ and _Suttree_.  Instead of a hardback,
                two paperbacks might do as well.
 
        Ed Krol, _The Whole Internet User's Guide & Catalog_.  By far the
                best thing I've seen on exploring the Internet and 
		understanding its resources.

	ed. Jonathan Crary and Sanford Kwinter, _Incorporations_ (A Zone Book,
		distributed by MIT Press).  For the black-clad postmodernist
		in your life.  Big ($34.95, ~640 pages), containing numerous
		essays, photo collages, and what have you--includes, e.g.,
		Guattari, DeLanda, Haraway, Ballard, Poster, a host of
		others.

	DeLanda, Manuel, War in the Age of Intelligent Machines.  Likewise 
		for the pomo beloved, likewise from Zone.  The history of
		warfare as seen by a robot historian exploring the development
		of the "machinic phylum."  *Not* fiction.

	Joe Keenan, _Blue Heaven_ and _Putting on the Ritz_.  Both discussed
		recently on r.a.b.  Elegant and funny in the manner of
		Wodehouse, set in NYC, gay narrator.

	Bruce Sterling, _The Hacker Crackdown_.  (Disclaimer:  Bruce is a 
		friend, just so you know.)  The story of the Feds against
		the Hackers--Operation Sun Devil, etc.--told with flair.
		Funny, good on both the cops and the hackers.

	William Gibson & Dennis Ashbaugh, "Agrippa."  Only $450 and much
		more than a book--it's a sculpture, a disappearing act, a
		public event.  For the cyberpunk aficionado who has, like,
		*everything*.

	Joe Bob Briggs, _Iron Joe Bob_.  I haven't read it, but I will and
		wouldn't mind finding it in my own stretch stocking.

	(And of course T*m M****x, H**o--that fabulously post-this-
and-that, don't mistake it for a doorstop, cheap at half the price, 
log-rolling, snotty, cliquish work of don't call it sci-fi unless you
smile, darling.)

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
				Alex Alexander