From: djb@dberleant.uark.edu (BERLEANT DANIEL J)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Interrelationship excerpts
Date: 12 Apr 92 06:40:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: engr.m0la7b4-00017gC
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Interrelationship Excerpts (anonmized) 
================================

Shalom Everyone,
  Here is issue #42. Sorry for the delay. It was partly my fault and
partly a lack of contributions, but in any event here is the latest! I
plan to be sending more anonymized excerpts to s.c.j. which should
also liven things up a bit, if not immediately then not too far off.
   - the editor, Dan B., djb@engr.uark.edu

Contents:
                - Wedding Question 
================
WEDDING QUESTION
---

E. writes:
  Topic: Finding a Rabbi and otherwise arranging for an Intermarriage
  My non-Jewish fiancee and I are making plans for our wedding.  As
difficult as any wedding is to plan, this is more so, because of the
different religions, and customs, and even cultures and home cities;
as difficult anything we do is this is more so, because now we not
only have us two to satisfy, but also four parents, two calendars
(there's only about one month this year between Simchas Torah and
Thanksgiving/Advent, with the leap year there may be similar conflict
in the spring [if we wanted to wait that long] between the prohibited
days between Passover and Shavuoth and the prohibited days around
Easter) and also the suppliers of halls (by now all the summer
Saturday nights and Sundays are taken, through Rosh Hashonah), food,
and music, and clergy.  (We're working on the evening of November 8,
even though it's after Daylight Savings Time [dark by 5PM, so no one
gets to see the beautiful country club] and it's a Sunday night, so
difficult for the out-of-towners.  Maybe they can stretch their time
off to Wednesday, which is Veteran's Day.)

 Eventually my fiancee intends to convert to Judaism.  She has always
felt any kids we have should know one religion, and we've agreed it
would be Judaism.  She doesn't want to convert before the marriage,
because while she is still living with her parents she doesn't want to
"rub their noses in it", so to speak -- they will be hurt by this, but
she feels it will be easier when she's not under their roof.  I
disagree but defer to her.

 Since the wedding will be strictly an intermarriage, there are many
questions.  According to Lamm, according to the Orthodox the marriage
is void except that it will be recognized by the civil law.  Therefore
we intend to reconsecrate the marriage after my fiancee converts.

 I'm a strict legalist, and would thus like to have this first wedding
performed by a J.P., but that would offend the other five parties.  I
also would have little objection to a Priest administering
non-sectarian, or at least non-Trinitarian vows other than in the
sanctuary of a Church, but my family would be offended and wouldn't
attend the ceremony.  This might give the wrong atmosphere for
starting a Jewish family.

 The choice seems to be a Reform Rabbi, which is acceptable to
everyone (and the first choice of no one.)  My fiancee and I met with
a local Reform Rabbi who herself will not perform intermarriages, but
referred us to two others who will.

 My father (who is more Jewishly educated than I, but still not a
scholar, and not always able to distinguish halacha, minhag, and
secular scholarship) is of the belief that a woman reading from the
Law is a desecration, so to preserve family peace we nixed the woman
on the list.

 I'm still coming to an arrangement with one male Reform Rabbi, a
Rabbi Axelrod who is with Brandeis University Hillel.  Even in this
case, while there will be a chuppah, there won't be a traditional
ketuba, because this will not be a marriage "according to the laws of
Moses and Israel".  I'm a little surprised at the cost of the whole
thing.  The total cost will be $800, which starts with a $150 donation
to Brandeis Hillel, and also includes $150 for a scribe for the
in-lieu-of-a-ketuba.  They are up front that these fees help provide
the Rabbi's salary as advisor to Hillel, and I understand that Hillels
are worse and worse funded.  I also understand that as neither of us
is a member of any congregation we haven't been supporting any Rabbi.

 Still, this seems four to eight times more than what we expected
would be the cost of clergy for the wedding, and is lending an air of
money-grubbing, or of being ripped off, to this aspect of the affair.

 My questions to the group are: Is this a normal fee for clergy for this
situation (intermarriage, not affiliated with a congregation)?
 Can anyone recommend a good male Rabbi who could perform an
intermarriage northwest of Boston on November 8?

  Hoping everyone had (or will have, if Dan gets this out quick
[ahhh...-db]) a good Purim,   E.
                ---
 Topic: Wedding question - Open Bar
 This is in follow-up to my earlier message.  I did some calling and
found another Rabbi (R. Levinson) who seemed acceptable to me.  His
fee is $400: more than I might expect but he said that includes
several meetings for counseling.  I suppose considering I don't
support a Rabbi through a synagogue that's understandable, and it's
half what the other one wanted.

 He seems a bit more easy-going about things in general.  (He uses an
English ketubah, leaving the Aramaic side there, but not filled in,
and substituting "the laws of G-d" for "the laws of Moses and
Israel".)

 His requirements to marry us are that the family-to-be knows no
religion other than Judaism, that the couple take an Intro. to Judaism
course, that no pork or shellfish be served at the reception, and that
there not be a cash bar at the reception.

 This last point is proving surprisingly troublesome.  Although part
of the problem is not within the scope of this list (namely that my
fiancee doesn't want outsiders, like my parents or the Rabbi dictating
the conditions of her wedding [like the gender of the clergy]), part
is plain practical.

 Apparently around here, cash bars are acceptable at weddings.  When
my fiancee first told me we would have a cash bar, it rubbed me the
wrong way, striking me as very tacky to charge our guests for
hospitality.  The Rabbi said that most of the Jewish guests would feel
similarly offended.  This is not a matter of strict principle, even
letting people run a tab is acceptable, but I gather he doesn't want
to officiate in a saloon.  He didn't mention it, but I think
Maimonides said there can be no celebration without wine.

 It was already decided that there would be wine on the tables, and we
can work along those lines.  (Eg: plenty of wine and champagne, with a
small quiet cocktail hour, after that the heavy drinkers can ask a
waitress for drinks.)

 My question is: What do people think about cash bars at weddings?
Please consider people who are Jewish and not-Jewish; of an older
(pre-M.A.D.D.)  generation and younger. E.

================
More next time!
- the editor