HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Subject: Re: Have Niven&Pournelle described Alderson drive anywhere?
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:03:10 GMT

There is a lot of vague details in "The bear went over the mountian" a short
story set in the early CoDominium found in the Pournelle edited anthology
"Black Holes".  In the story a Black Hole perodically ocults a Alderson
tram line between two stars geting ships lost.


--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Question on next (if any) Alvin Maker book by O.S. Card
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:55:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


According to an interview in Jan 1992 _Locus_, OSC has not 
started work on the 4th Alvin Maker novel. He will first complete
the remaining novels in _The Memory of Earth_ series and a final
Ender book beforehand. This pushes the projected publication
date for Alvin 4 to mid-1995 at the eariest.
If you want a preview/fix, check out the poem "Prentice Alvin &
the Now-Good Plow" in the collection _Maps in a Mirror_. Get a
copy from your public library, because it will not be reprinted
in paperback. 
BTW I think that #4's title is _Journeyman Alvin_
Mark Stackpole  pacnet@rocky.claremont.edu
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Date: 26 Jul 92 04:01:13 GMT
Organization: I is a writur

branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) writes:

>You mean...you can't judge a book by its cover?

Yes, you can, actually. But not through literalistic interpretation, but by
learning to understand the inconagraphy. But that's a different discussion.

-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms
	A real SF writur with stories in ALTERNATE KENNEDYS and THE 
	  FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN, in better bookstores now!

          Painted emblems of a race, all accurst in days of yore,
       Each from his accustomed place steps into the world once more.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: fikreyeD@moravian.edu (Daniel Fikreyesus)
Subject: Re: space opera:  definition
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 00:02:06 EDT

In article <1992Jul24.135837.8625@wri.com>, novak@wri.com (John M. Novak) writes:
re: space opera:
> I love the Lensman series.

	"Super-powerful flying vortices of atomic disintegration!"  Wow!  I s
slung that one at several non-SF friends, and they all went around repeating
it for days.  He's a literary Ramones -- high praise indeed, _I_ think.  "Now
I wanna sniff some thionite . . ."  "Get me to the spaceport, and put me on the
super-powerful invincible gigantic coruscating mammoth allotropic-iron (?!?!?!)
powered super-space-dreadnaught piloted and crewed by great-thewed many-limbed
clean-jawed blonde spacemen of mickle might."  Yeah.  Just as long as ya don't
start to take him too seriously . . .

> Of the 'thoughtful' sort, Brin's "Startide Rising"

	Oof.  Hated it.  Then again, I just plain hate Brin in general.  Then
yet _again_, I only ever sampled him when I was reading a lot of OSC and 
Heinlein, so he may be better than he seemed in comparison @ the time . . .

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tmyoung@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Thomas M. Young)
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 00:20:22 EDT

In article <1992Jul26.175406.19035@sctc.com> beede@sctc.com (Mike Beede) writes:
>tmyoung@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Thomas M. Young) writes:
>
>>In any case, the thing that I found more far-fetched was the culture that
>>the Moties developed.  They could have ended their cycles by just adopting 
>>the same strategy as a lot of early human cultures: kill the unwanted 
>>children.  The first Motie society to do that would swiftly control the 
>>planet, as they would be able to devote less energy to supporting their huge 
>>population.  
>
>Urk.  That sounds supremely reasonable.  However, what happens when
>the more-efficient less-numerous Tribe O' Moties meets their
>unfriendly neighbors?  Don't they get stomped and the logical social
>organization get lost?   I'd really like to buy this one, since it
>has parallels in human history.
>

Well, the usual problem with unrestricted breeding is that you swiftly over-
run your food supply (and other vital resources).  The meeting between the 
unrestricted breeder and the controlled breeder can go either way of course,
but since the controlled breeder can field a force of better fed/equipped 
warriors than the unrestricted breeder, it works more often than not. 

There is a 'maintenance cost' for bulk population that tends to increase 
as a function of the population, meaning that at a given tech level, there
is an optimal population in terms of ability to generate an effective
fighting force.  At one time in history, we have record that it required
5 families working as farmers and herdsmen to provide enough surplus for
a single warrior.  If all the available arable land is in production,
then you want a 5:1 ratio of peasants to warriors to field the most.
If you have 10 peasants working the same land, they can survive, but they
won't be able to supply a knight.  The same pattern holds in higher tech
settings as well, because the support structures needed to maintain your
civilian population divert resources that might go towards a war effort.
You have the option of euthanizing the elderly, 'giving babies to the sea',
sacrificing the politically incorrect to the gods, or whatever.  

In the cultures where it was practiced, I understand it was considered
quite normal, if not well liked.  Perhaps like abortion or birth control now. 
The cultures who would chose starvation over atrocity starved, while the
cultures choosing atrocity were atrocious.

It's a point that N&P need to address in the sequel: why won't this work for
Moties?  I have no doubt they will think of something.

--
Tom Young                                         tmyoung@rodan.acs.syr.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: merritt@provolone.bchem.washington.edu (Ethan A Merritt)
Subject: Re: Redwall by Brian Jacques
Reply-To: merritt@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:51:21 GMT


In article <"23-Jul-92.14:46:16.PDT".*.Mark_E._Palandri.sd@Xerox.com>,
MPalandri.SD@XEROX.COM writes:
|> 
|> I just came across the book "Redwall" by Brian Jacques, and the back
|> cover makes it sound vaguely interesting. Has anyone out there read
|> the book, and if so could they let me know what they thought about
|> it without too many spoilers.

Let's see - 
	Has anyone out there read it?  Well, probably every literate
4th or 5th grader who can manage the transcribed British accents.
Brian Jacques came through to talk to kids at the local public schools
and was mobbed by as many autograph-seeking pre-teens as I've ever seen
outside of a rock concert.  

non-spoilers -
	Wind in the Willows meets Robin Hood, no I mean Watership Down as
written by Robert Louis Stevenson, nonono I mean Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats
of Sherwood Forest.

should you read it -
	Sure! Why not. 

Books -
	"Mossflower", "Redwall", "Mattimeo", "Mariel of Redwall"
(I think I've got them in chronological order of plot line, but I'm not
sure.  The kids tell me it doesn't really matter what order you read them in.)

					Ethan A Merritt
					merritt@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kellmer@milton.u.washington.edu (Brent Kellmer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: space opera:  definition
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:35:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul22.163554.21575
Reply-To: kellmer@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I know this may sound like a silly question, but here goes:

I've seen references to the term "SPACE OPERA"  as opposed to such things
as hard sf, and even other types of sf.  What exactly defines something as
"Space Opera?"  Obviously there isn't a hard and fast rule, but I'd like
to see what other people consider space opera.  Examples would help as
well.  Thanks a lot.

Brent Kellemr
kellmer@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: wcstom@alfred.carleton.ca (Tom Hamill)
Subject: Re: Beyond the Fall of Night
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:02:21 GMT

In article <_ryx_7p@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>In article chris@MorningStar.Com (Chris Miller) writes:
>|> 
>|> I just finished reading _Beyond the Fall of Night_  and would like to hear
>|> the net.consensus on this one.
>
> To steal a quote from a well-known presidential candidate: "ACK! THPTHT!"
>
>|>  The book is by Arthur C. Clarke and Gregory Berenford (sp?) ,
>                                                Benford
>|> but is based on and earlier Clarke work called _Against the Fall of Night_.
>|> 
>|> In order to keep this spoiler-free,  I will only say that I found the 
>|> First part of BtFoN to be more-or-less straightforward "hard" sf.  The 
>|> Second part, however, was really off the deep end.
>
Part 1 of BtFoN is, in fact, the original Clarke story, word for word,
that was first published in 1953.  In effect, Benford wrote Part 2 as 
a sequal to the original.  While I was disappointed with Benford's 
style(it felt as though he was trying to retain the flavour of the 
original '50's writing style while using '90's concepts, and didn't
quite pull it off), I didn't think the overall effort was quite as bad 
as your reaction seems to indicate.

> There's a thin line between sense-of-wonder and showing off. Clarke usually
>does a good sense-of-wonder: he gives you the message "look what a huge, 
>fascianting and mysterious place the Universe is". Benford, in this story
>(I haven't read anything else by him) seems more like he's trying to impress
>you with how smart he is than anything else.
>
In this context the last sentence is true for the most part, but don't
let that keep you from reading Benford's own novels.  He presents his
own ideas in a different, better prose style that is a much more
enjoyable read, and with a sense of wonder, in different new directions, 
that is, at the very least, equal to Clarke's.  Beneford writes excellent
'hard', technological SF.

> I rapidly lost interest in
>_Beyond the Fall of Night_, so much so that while I read it all the way 
>through, I can't remember any of what happened in it.
>
Actually, that about describes how I reacted when I read it.  

---tom

l~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l
l      CRUSH---CompassionRespectUnderstandingSelfHonesty---CRUSH      l
l         How could you have ever lived your life without it?         l
l               Join Now, Apply Within.  Spread the word.             l
l____________________________      ---me, trying to save the world,   l
l wcstom@alfred.carleton.ca l                      from itself.       l
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@watney.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 08:07:41 GMT

In article <691@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
writes: 
>The point is that it is the *crashes* that *make* it a bad individual
>strategy.  K-strategy species do quite well ate establishing stable
>population sizes.

This is all very well, but what does it demonstrate?  Evolution is basically a
hill-climbing optimizer with randomly chosen steps.  You can't even _hope_ to
show anything better than convergence to local optima for such a thing, and
considering that the `hill' you're climbing is changing as fast as you're
climbing it (the other species evolve too) even local optimality seems a
rather strong assumption.

As a simple example, a good look at the human body shows that the plumbing
system leaves room for improvement, to put it mildly.  Yet this design is
locked into a rather large number of species.  There simply isn't an
evolutionary way out of the mess, so once some ancestor species evolved onto
this particular `hill,' a lousy design was frozen in.

Similarly, while their high fecundity is clearly not good for the Moties,
there is no evolutionary path out of it, as changing the fecundity would
effectively require a complete overhaul.  So they're stuck.

SR
---
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven dials
Date: 31 Jul 1992 20:47:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey) writes:

|In a number of his short stories, Larry Niven has his characters "dial" for
|things--in teleport booths; I seem to remember them dialing for food more than
|once, etc.  I always read this picturing an actual dial--you know, like on the
|older(pre-touch-tone)model of telephone.

|Suddenly last night it occurred to me--dialing could also be considered to
|include using a telephone-type keypad.  Which makes a >lot< more sense to me.
|But I don't think that "dial" is the right word here.  What would be?  "Punch?"
|Something like that, I guess.

You might ask yourself what kind of dials were ubiquitous when Niven
wrote the early stories.  Slow they may have been, but rotary dials
were the obvious mechanism to think of when envisaging how one might
communicate numbers to automatic entities.  More specifically, think
of how closely analagous the teleport booths were to old style phone
booths.

Perhaps you could fault Niven for not being forward-seeing enough to
recognize that a push-button mechanism (or voice recognition) would
eventually replace clumsy old dials.  But I expect that's a quibble.
I'll bet he didn't think much about the dials one way or another, and
rightly so.

	/JBL
=
Nets: levin@bbn.com  | 
pots: (617)873-3463  |                                      "I gotta go."
              N1MNF  |                                            -- I. Shoales
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: "Understand" by Ted Chiang
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:08:54 GMT


The ending is worse than that.  It's... missing.

Like a dork, after Ted mailed me the story, which I had already read in
Asimov's, I made sure that it started out OK and that it was novelette
length.  But I didn't read it all and the end is missing.  Sorry about
that foks.   I am trying to track it down.

But no, the ending is not depressing in the sense of Flowers for Algernon
at all.   I would not call it a happy ending, either, thugh.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
From: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: ISBN for paperback of Jack the Bodiless?
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:21:22 GMT
Reply-To: alird@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <1340@sparc8.salf.ac.uk>, rsa@arrc.salf.ac.uk (Ruth Aylett) writes:
>Has the paperback version of 'Jack the Bodiless' by Julian May come out
>in the US yet? My bookshop here in Manchester, UK, says IF it has, and
>IF I can supply the ISBN, they will get it for me. Could somebody help
>me here? If anyone has the ISBN of a paperback version, assuming it is
>now available, please email it to me. Email is essential as my access to
>this group has just been cut off for space reasons (Boo!).

I have searched in the usual places that a librarian would look and I have NOT
found the existance of a paperback edition of this work. Sorry.
 
rick
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tm@jyu.fi (Timo Mannikko)
Subject: Niven's Playgrounds of the Mind
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:00:07 GMT

Could someone post here (or E-mail to me) the complete contents of Larry
Niven's _Playgrounds_of_the_Mind_? (I mean, to copy the contents page(s),
not the whole book :-) )

Being a Niven fan, I'd just like to know how much new stuff I get when
I byu it. (BTW, is it already available as a paperback?)

- Timo     tm@tukki.jyu.fi   or   mannikko@jylk.jyu.fi
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: fikreyeD@moravian.edu (Daniel Fikreyesus)
Subject: Re: SF Demographics
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 00:04:56 EDT

In article <1992Jul24.173407.18092@math.waterloo.edu>, jglarson@watmsg.waterloo.edu (Johan Larson) writes:
> What are the demographics of the SF readership?

	I think that most of them read the stuff, but not all.
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: The Man in the High Castle / I-Ching
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:18:45 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

Hello Netters,

    I just finished reading PK Dick's "The Man in the High Castle".
  it was a fascinating and strange book. I still don't understand
  exactly what does the end mean. Maybe because this was my first
  encounter with the I-Ching. 

  Can anybody enlighten me with their interpretation of the end 
  and on the question: "Is the I-Ching remotely as influential on
  Oriental Culture as is implied in the book?".

  Please do so by email, since it might contain spoilers.
  
  email: davidba@moav.technion.ac.il

Thanks in advance,

  David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Errors in Covers (was Re: Hyperion covers)
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:17:58 GMT
Organization: I is a writur

bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Bill Thomas) writes:
>Chuq Von Rospach writes:

>I'm sure I'm not the only person who's a bit troubled by this apparent
>trend.

>As Billy Crystal would say, "This is not '90s behavior!" I
>understand that marketing is crucial to selling a book, and that a
>cover's purpose is to sell it. But it seems to me we've crossed over a
>line here.

Trend? anti-trend, since appropriate melanin content is happening more and
more often in the world. The editors hate it. The salesmen hate it. The
marketing types hate it. The authors hate it (especially the authors with
appropriate melanin content).

On the other hand, if it means the difference between not having the book
available in ten or twelve states, everyone involved has to sit down and
think really hard about whether they're here to change the world or here to
pay the rent.

It's not an easy decision. A few years ago, it wasn't a decision at all --
you paid the rent. More and more, though, where the ethical issues are being
balanced off (see, for instance, the re-issue of STREET-LETHAL by Tor, as
opposed to the original 'sunburnt' cover it had). 

>Publishers came to the conclusion that
>there is a significant group of people -- in fact, if Chuq is to be
>believed, entire REGIONS of the country -- where people won't buy books
>if they think they include dark-skinned people. I suppose this is
>possible, but it's really a bunch of shit.

Wrong. What you have are DISTRIBUTORS and BUYERS in regions of the country
that won't buy the books. A few, well=placed bigots that make sure the
general populace never gets a chance to see it.


-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms
	A real SF writur with stories in ALTERNATE KENNEDYS and THE 
	  FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN, in better bookstores now!

          Painted emblems of a race, all accurst in days of yore,
       Each from his accustomed place steps into the world once more.
From: rclark@lpl.arizona.edu (Richard Clark x4971)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dealing with Jump shock (Re: The Moat around God's Eye)
Date: 23 Jul 92 09:40:34 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.

In article <!qsx!bj@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>In article <104770002@otter.hpl.hp.com>, tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner) writes:
>|> 
>|> i.e. would you force the photons to go through a forest of "wires" to
>|> reach the photoreceptors, or would you bring the wires out the back of
>|> the eye. 
>|> 
>|> Right. Obvious isn't it. At least to any competent engineer. But God got it
>|> wrong in the human eye. This is a superb way of demonstrating either the
>|> non-existence of God or that God is fundamentally incompetant. Take your
>|> choice.
> 
>   -Jim, who's not fond of religion but even less fond of bad logic.


Turns out not to matter that much which side of the stuff the photoreceptors
are on. The stuff (blood vessels, neural net) is a thin layor and nearly
transparent. The only place with enough resolution for there to be any
noticeable optical degradation is the central fovea. In this region the
layor of stuff is in fact thinner (less vascularized than the rest of the
retina). The major penalty for this 'wrong decision' is that you can't
look at the Sun cause there is not enough cooling capacity. Don't think
the other way would have fixed that anyway.

Humans are primarily diuranal, plenty of signal strength when we're meant
to be out and about. Consider nocturnal animals... one adaptation is a
reflective layor at the very back of the retina (cats etc). This sends
light through the stuff to the photorecptors, reflection, photoreceptors,
stuff, higher order reflections attenuated cause only a portion of the retina
is reflective. Having the photorecptors in front would have the reflected
signal making two trips through it so it may actualy is better this way for
night critters (assuming it makes a difference at all.)

In pushing the design (biological version of eye from $6e6 man) this might
be a problem... but so would the neural net packing that is also part of
the retina. How do Eagle's eyes work? (the class a couple of years ago
that I'm recalling this from didn't cover that:-).

The sophistication of the eye (variable shape surfaces, variable index of
refraction...) is achived at the expense of some quite hideous aberations
even in critters with 'superior vision'. But when your rug is a neural net
you can sweep a multitude of sins under it.

Richard Clark
the signal back through the photoreceptors and stuff. But a single trip
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Buffalo" is SF?  /Hugo nominated/ SF?!
Date: 27 Jul 92 12:16:23 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Jul26.193023.20522@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>  
dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
> I just finished reading "Buffalo", by John Kessel.  (Thanks to
> Brad Templeton, btw).
> 
> I am left with two questions:
> 
> 1. What exactly about this story makes it SF?  Except for the use of
>    H. G. Wells as a character, I saw no SFnal elements at all.

I understand your point here, though one definition of SF (I think
Damon Knight first came up with it) is "SF is what I'm pointing a
at when I say SF."  A story appearing in one of the 3 major SF
magazines is certainly "being pointed at and called SF."  

> 
> 2. I found this story disappointing.  Kessel does a reasonable job
>    of portraying believable characters, but... what's the point?
> 

One answer is that this story, like any story, is its own point.
However, I think there are several things that make this a good 
story. One is the portrait of the characters. Another is the 
view of Wells himself, the old, bitter socialist who doesn't really
understand the world at all anymore.  Note, for example, how
Wells is constantly viewing "the workers" in ways that have
no relationship to the way the workers in the story actually
behave.

All in all, a good story.


--
Jim Mann       jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  Stratus Computer