HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jrobie@netmbx.netmbx.de (Jonathan Robie)
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
Organization: netmbx, Berlin, Germany
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:24:18 GMT

T027420%UHCCMVS.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:

>From time to time, one hears grumbles that waltzes at
>contra dance evenings are too slow.  Im
>sure this topic has aired before, but just how fast
>is "danceable"?  I think the range probably runs from
>(quarter note=100) to (quarter note = 180), that is,
>real slow to Viennese brilliance.  Whaddaya say?

Seems to be culturally relative.  The first time we played a slow
contra waltz in Germany the whole dance floor glared at us.  They
prefer Viennese brilliance here...
-- 
Jonathan

===========================================================================

From: isaacs@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Stan Isaacs)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:13:13 GMT
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing

There is no "correct" tempo for a waltz; you need to specify what
kind/place/era waltz, and even then, I think there is a lot of
lattitude.  The late 19th century and Ragtime era waltzes were fairly
fast (though not, I think, as fast as some orchestras tend to play
them.)  On the other hand, modern ballroom waltzes seem to be
unbearably slow.  My personal taste tends towards medium fast, if I'm
just doing a generic Waltz, but a lot of specific countries/eras have
dances that require different speeds.

When the waltz first came to ballroom dancing, early in the 19th
century, it was moderately slow (though not as slow as todays
ballroom), but it got very fast during the last third of the century
or so, which seems to have lasted at least into the twenties.  There
were some very nice variations at the end of the century, some
involving polka-mazurka steps, and some with simple rhythmic changes.

> The truly horrid "American" waltz that I've seen (at the Policemen's
> Ball and at weddings) consists of the couple slowly rocking sideways,
> in place, to the (man's) left on "1-2-3" and to the right on "4-5-6".
> It can be done to a tune of any speed, even if it's not in 3/4, and be
> considered a "nice, slow waltz."

 This sounds like what I call "The No-Step", (usually seen to Fox Trot
music), which I think has been popular all this century (and maybe
before) by all the people who'd rather hold someone close than dance.
On the other hand, there was a dance called the Boston, that started
somewhere in the 1880's or so, which was basically one step to each
waltz measure.  But it usually traveled, rather than swayed in place.
By the end of the first decade of this century, it had acquired quite
a few nice variations, and is fun to do sometimes, when the music is
too fast and I am too tired.

 By the way, as someone mentioned (I think) the term Waltz was not only
used for the dance we think of.  The dance was probably the first
social dance where you more-or-less faced your partner, and rotated
around.  As such, it was very suspect, and certainly frowned upon.
But also, the term was used for rotation as much as for the dance; for
instance, after doing some Polka figure or other, instructions might
call for waltzing around with your partner.  That didn't mean the
music changed, just that you changed to closed position and did the
polka rotating.  In fact, there was a "Waltz in 5/4 time", which
didn't seem contradictory to those dancers.

  -- Stan Isaacs
From: Jeff_Folkins.wbst147@xerox.com
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Re:  cassette sound system sources
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:05:48 GMT

It appears that amongst the northeast contra musician crowd that the "in" tape
recorder is the "Marantz PMD221".  This wonderful tape recorder has the two
features:  1) Variable Pitch Control and 2) Half Speed Control.  (The variable
pitch is used to allow tapes to be tuned with actual instruments and the half
speed control allows the slowing of recorded tunes on playback to make them
easier to learn by ear - at half speed they are played back exactly one octave
low).  I bought mine after the endorsement from George Marshall of Wild
Asparagus: "This tape recorder literally changed my life".   The PMD221 has a
good mike input and many features but no music search.  Also, it is mono.
Marantz sells a similar version which is stereo but it does NOT have the half
speed control (I don`t remember about the pitch control).  This is a serious
tape recorder and prices in at about $300-400.
			Jeff Folkins,  Rochester, N.Y.
			Folkins.wbst147@xerox.com
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
From: takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman)
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:19:00 GMT

In article <16092@pitt.UUCP>, T027420%UHCCMVS.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes...
>From time to time, one hears grumbles that waltzes at
>contra dance evenings are too slow.  Im
>sure this topic has aired before, but just how fast
>is "danceable"?  I think the range probably runs from
>(quarter note=100) to (quarter note = 180), that is,
>real slow to Viennese brilliance.  Whaddaya say?
The trouble with waltzes is that what sounds right musically is usually too
slow for dancing.  100 bpm is a dirge.  120 is more like it.  It might help to
have the guitar or piano player start the rhythm before you get distracted by 
the melody.  Failing that, just play faster than feels right--resist the
temptation to linger over those luscious passages.  

When I learn waltzes from records I'm often surprised how fast they
are; the slowness that you associate with a waltz may be an illusion.

Toby Koosman
University of Tennessee   Knoxville, Tennessee  USA
Internet: koosman@utkvx.utk.edu     Bitnet: koosman@utkvx
From: tjw+@pitt.edu (TJ Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Dancing in Washington DC?
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:52:27 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

A friend of mine is going to be in Washington DC in the near future and is
looking for some folk-dance (Contra, Square, International, etc) groups to
visit.

If you know of any, please drop me a line.

Many thanks,

Terry J. Wood
-- 
        INTERNET: tjw+@pitt.edu         BITNET: TJW@PITTVMS
"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!"                        - Lord "John" Warfin
"There can be only one!"                                  - The Highlander
"There should have been only one. I want my money back!"  - Terry
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
From: trb@ima.isc.com (Andrew Tannenbaum)
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
Date: 23 Aug 92 16:24:27 GMT
Organization: Interactive Systems, Cambridge, MA 02138-5302

In article <23AUG199202170652@utkvx2.utk.edu> you write:
> If I'm not mistaken the query concerned waltzes at contra dances.  I think we
> all recognize the variation in waltz styles but isn't it safe to say that 
> there is a dominant form at contra dances, even if certain couples who are
> knowledgeable about other waltzes are doing their thing?  We're quite over-
> complicating the issue, I believe.  

You're right, pretty much.  In New England, the contra dance waltz of
choice is a so-called Scandinavian waltz, couples whirling
clockwise and traveling counterclockwise around the room.  Someone
mentioned that box-stepping was most common in his area (the
southwest?).  I find the box-step most heinous, but I realize that it's
very subjective.  There are other of Scandinavian waltz variations,
stegvaltz comes to mind, but they aren't common at most contra dances.

For waltzes at contra dances, slow to medium speed is best.  If you
look around at most contra dances, you'll find that most dancers
aren't much good at keeping with the beat, and they will be most
fortunate if the band is playing at the speed that they happen to be
dancing.  "Too slow" will be hard for them to dance to, because they'll
feel awkward.  "Too fast" is bad because, especially in a crowded hall,
it makes for recklessness and randomness.

There has been a recent regrettable fad around here to dim the lights
during waltzes, which is sad since it makes it hard to see anything,
your partner's face or the other dancers.  While certain transcendent
souls can steer with their eyes closed, most need all the help they can
get with their eyes open, which makes the darkness inconvenient.  If
you can't drum up the appropriate emotion without shutting the lights,
you're doing something wrong.

By the way, I mentioned above that the waltz at contra dances is done
traveling counterclockwise around the room.  If you are going to box
step, or swing dance in 3/4, or something, move to the center of the
hall and do your fellow dancers a favor.

	Andrew Tannenbaum   Interactive   Cambridge, MA   +1 617 661 7474
From: dbristow@novell.com (David Bristow)
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Looking for some places to dance!
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:38:26 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.


This message is posted for a friend from Washington
that is visiting us here in San Jose, please email
responces to dbristow@novell.com or post back to this
group.  Thanx for your help! :

Two out of town international folk dancers are looking for a place to do
some international folk dancing tonight, Monday, 17 AUG 92, in the South
Bay Area. If anyone out there knows where it is happening or who (incl.
phone numbers) to contact, please advise. Thanks!
			Skip
From: susan@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Susan Frontczak)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:52:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Contra Dancing in Switzerland???
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing

In rec.folk-dancing, pearl@sw.stratus.com (Dan Pearl) writes:

>Subject line says it all.  Any leads folks?  A friend is spending some time
>there and she doesn't want to suffer contra withdrawal.

Hi Dan!  When Jim and I went to Poland last summer I got two responses
to a posted query.  I have one dance lead in Switzerland, although I'm
not sure whether he contra dances:

Norman H. Azadian <naz@hasler.ascom.ch>
PAPER:  Norman Azadian; Ascom AG; Belpstrasse 23; 3000 Berne 14; Switzerland
INTERNET:  naz%hslrswi.uucp@uunet.uu.net
UUCP:   ...{uunet,ukc,mcvax,...}!chx400!hslrswi!naz
VOICE:  +41 31 63 2178            BITNET: naz%hslrswi.UUCP@cernvax.BITNET


Also, if she might make it Germany, Jonathan Robie runs a small
contradance group in Berlin.

Jonathan Robie          jrobie@netmbx.UUCP
Boothstr. 23a           jrobie@in-berlin.de
D-1000 Berlin 45        +49 (30) 772 82 35
Deutschland

Good Luck!

Susan Frontczak
____________________________________________________________________________

                _              Software Engineering Systems Division
     __ ,_ _  _/_'                                            /\  /\
  ,__\'_/ ) )_/                Hewlett-Packard Company       /  \/  \/\
                               3404 E. Harmony Road, MS 7   /   /    \ \
                               Ft. Collins, CO 80525
                                                               __o
  Susan M. Frontczak   susan@fc.sde.hp.com   (303)-229-2569    \<,
_____________________________________________________________()/ ()_________
From: billmers@merlyn.enet.dec.com (Meyer Billmers)
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
Reply-To: billmers@merlyn.enet.dec.com (Meyer Billmers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:42:41 GMT

I like the categorizations I've read here, especially the observation
that the word "waltz" means 
something ranging from swaying in place to the music, all the way to a
fast Viennese waltz. 
Indeed, to Chopin, it didn't even imply a dance :-)

I had the pleasure this past June at Pinewoods camp of learning some
delightful French waltzes from
a delightful California lady, Marilyn Wathen. She stressed that the
French don't go to the dance to
socialize, they go to dance. Their waltzes were incredibly fast. As
Marilyn said, they want to SPIN.
I'd say the average tempo was in excess of 180 for these waltzes. They
were definitely not Viennese; 
at no time did your feet leave the floor. No pivots, just a flat, even
CW turn, but you spun fast
enough to pull strongly against your partner by centrifugal force. It
was very nice.

I also had the misfortune of attending a wedding with a DJ instead of a
band. When I asked for a waltz,
the DJ couldn't find one in his collection! He eventually dredged up an
abomination by Englebert
Humperdinck (the 20th century one) which had the world waltz in its
name, was sappy and had a tempo
of about 8. The rest of the floor did the sway-in-place stuff. My wife
and I did something triple time
and forced it to fit. 

Just goes to show, there's a world of waltzes.
From: sandell@chowning.CNMAT.Berkeley.EDU (Gregory J. Sandell)
Newsgroups: rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Re: waltz:  how fast is danceable?
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:09:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: chowning.cnmat.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug18.183235.13217@pony.Ingres.COM> jonb@Ingres.COM (Jon  
Berger) writes:
> In article <16092@pitt.UUCP>, T027420%UHCCMVS.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu  
writes...
> >waltzes...
> >just how fast
> >is "danceable"?

> I'd be interested in hearing from other dance musicians about this, but
> my possibly over-cynical impression is that if there are ten waltzers
> on the floor there will be at least eleven opinions about how fast the
> tune should be played, and none of them will coincide with the speed
> it's actually being played at.  

Let me add this:  if there are ten waltzers on the floor, there will be at  
least two who can't waltz in the right time to the music no matter how  
slow or fast the tempo is.

I don't mean to sound prejudiced against the "differently-rhythmed" :-)
but it really is true that a sizeable number of people on the dance floor  
don't know how to coordinate the waltz step to the music.  

Not that anybody in this forum has said such a thing, but it is a fallacy  
to say something like "look, they're having trouble dancing in time to the  
music, the tempo must be wrong".

However, to undermine my own position, there DO seem to be some dancers  
who have otherwise excellent rhythm who will respond to painfully-slow  
waltzes by simply waltzing to the tempo that they think is most  
comfortable, ie, ignoring the music.  I don't think they do this  
consciously...but it's a great act of protest!  How a musician with any  
dance experience can allow themselves to play waltzes as slowly as I've  
heard them in the past is beyond my comprehension!
--
Greg Sandell
Research Fellow, Center for New Music and Audio Technologies (CNMAT)
sandell@cnmat.cnmat.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: chris@carnival.lbl.gov (Chris Moll)
Subject: Re: Re: All that fat
Keywords: n
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:34:18 GMT

"Somerville" writes:
> High fat diets are linked to a number of serious
> diseases (such as various cancers), not just heart disease.

Keith Erskine replies:
>There must be *SOME* fat in the diet.  The body cannot survive
>on just carbos and protein.

Remember, your audience lives in industrialized countries, where the average
diet is absurdly high in fat.  In this environment it requires a substantial
effort to keep one's fat intake low (for me anyway).

My body fat has always been low (~4%) but I've never had any particular
problems with endurance.  I'll bonk if I don't eat, of course, and it's
true that I seem to eat more than most, but it doesn't constitute a problem.
Perhaps I'm just accustomed to it.

Keith continues:
>I rigorously followed a low fat diet...
>I got my body weight down by 5 pounds and climbed faster than I ever did.

I've heard others say this - that they climbed better on a low-fat diet.

I have heard that body fat <6% is correlated with a higher incidence of 
infections, but I suspect this was based on people who were malnourished,
rather than extremely active.

Consider how pros look towards the end of a hard stage race ("partially 
reconstituted freeze-dried Ethiopians" is one description I've heard).
There's not much fat on them.  Certainly they have to eat as much as they
can choke down, but at that activity level that's not surprising.

Most importantly, low body fat does not necessarily mean you can eat what you
want: my cholesterol and blood pressure are both somewhat high.  It might be
that my endurance would not particularly suffer from a higher-fat diet, but
my cholesterol concerns me more.
--
Chris Moll                       (510)486-7891
---
"Blessed are they who Go Around in Circles, for they Shall
be Known as Wheels."
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: pauls@mudskipper.css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth)
Subject: Re: Alan steering tube
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:08:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.204439.19772@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>  
cartera@tramp.Colorado.EDU (CARTER ARTHUR L) writes:
> Does anyone know where to obtain a replacement steering tube for an Alan
> road frame.  The steering tube is simply a piece of threaded tubing that
> attaches to the top of the fork.
> 

If you are referring to the Alan aluminum steerer, I would strongly  
recommend you either replace it with a steel one, or get a new fork.   
Those things are very weak.  If you call a tubing supplier, like Nova  
Cycle Supply (probably would have to be a dealer to order) they could  
probably send or fabricate one for you, but more likely out of steel than  
aluminum.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Subject: Re: MYTH or FACT: Do bicycle helmets wear out from age?
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 16:51:12 GMT

Anyone know if a brand new circa-1980 Bell Biker helmet could meet the
current Snell tests?  While I'm sure the old Bell helmets offered quite a bit
of protection, the newer ones are probably quite a bit safer, as well as
being lighter and better ventilated.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: My Bicycle Helmet Experience
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 05:15:02 GMT

In article <BsyHD7.Ar@well.sf.ca.us> marquis@well.sf.ca.us (Roger Marquis) writes:
>I'm for one enjoy riding without a helmet (unless in a large, dangerous
>group) and take pride in my 20 years of _safe_ riding.  I wonder about 
>those who seem to revel in detailing their accidents.  Do you like to
>talk about the results of poor riding or do you believe it 'wasn't
>your fault'?  

fault?  poor riding?  i hope you are not going so far as to suggest
that every cyclist who is in an accident is responsible for the accident.
i don't believe that jim's accident is necessarily due to poor cycling.
unless, of course, you define poor cycling as riding near another cyclist.
earlier this year, i was struck by a motorist while crossing an
intersection.  i had the green light, and i was already in the middle
of the intersection when an oncoming car turned left and nailed my
rear wheel.
the point is this: anybody can get taken out, no matter how safely he or
she is riding.  i wear a helmet, not because i doubt my riding skills,
but because i acknowledge that there are many circumstances beyond my
control.  excuse me for bursting your balloon, but it is my opinion
that your 20 years/200,000 miles of accident-free cycling are due to
plain luck, unless you are telekinetic and can halt onrushing cars
with a baleful glance.  or perhaps you have invented some force field
that surrounds you.

for people who think it's tres chic to go helmetless: it's their
choice.  natural selection will get them eventually.

-teddy
p.s. i wonder... in a personal injury action, might failure to wear a
helmet be treated the same way as failure to wear a seat belt?  that is,
might they reduce your award on the ground that your failure to wear a
helmet resulted in injury which would otherwise have been avoided or
reduced?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: parksd@source.asset.com (Don Parks)
Subject: Re: Bruce's History Lesson and Thoughts on the Reorganization
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:26:57 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Asset Source for Software Engineering Technology

In article <l8msl1INN2t9@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
...
>
>In my discussions with Les, it became apparent that there were
>a number of issues in the "rec.bicycles" domain that covered both
>road and mountain biking.  We felt it would be better to have
>a "rec.bicycles.racing" (rather than "rec.bicycles.mtb.racing"
>and "rec.bicycles.road.racing") that would include racing information
>for all types of bicycles.  If you had a group for each, where would
>you put the results of the Durango Iron Horse Classic for example,
>which has both on-road and off-road segments.  More than likely the
>results would be cross posted.
>
>We wanted to avoid cross posting at all costs, I feel if you thought
>Creating a generic "rec.bicycles.mtb" would have been the worst of
>all possibilities, it would have created "cross-post heaven".  I
...

First, I am not taking the mtb thing personally.  It just seems so
logical to me (I guess that really doesn't mean squat).  I enjoy
reading all the bike stuff.  I have raced mtb's, toured, and imagine
that soon I will give road racing a go.

I would just like to ask one more time (and I promise to shut up after
this) why do the motorized bikers have the following split?:

        rec.motorcycles.dirt
        rec.motorcycles.racing

I don't know the history of these groups, nor do I follow the
traffic on either.  But what gives.

If some one would pass on to me, or let me know where it can be
found, information on how to start a RFD or CFV or whatever, I would
be willing to take the time to see what folks think of a new group
like:

     rec.mtbikes
or
     alt.bikes.mountain

I can see it now:  Rec.mtbikes fails:  403 no 120 yes
i.e.  the inverse vote of the rec.bicycles split.
However, I'd still like to give it a shot to see if there are some
mountain bikers out there who aren't comfortable with rec.bicycles
and hence don't currently subscribed to the group(s).


Don (really not trying to be a bad apple) Juan


(To the guy that suggested a long bike ride... I do all the time to
escape the pressures of work, women, and life in general...  works
wonders, no drug like it !!!!)
-- 

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
From: hwk@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (henry.w.krautter)
Subject: saddle problem
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:31:03 GMT
Keywords: pelvic bone saddle

I've been riding about three months now and it appears that I have a small
high spot on my pelvic bone. I went from a racing to a touring seat with
no help. There is a sore spot or bruise on the skin above the bone. I can
adjust my position on the seat as I'm riding which helps a little, but I
could end up just making the sore area larger. It seems the more I ride the
worse it gets. I'm hoping the skin will eventually toughen up instead of
getting worse. The only doctor it would make sense to see would be my 
orthopedic surgeon, but I think it would envolve an operation and he may
not be willing to do it unless it's a necessity. Has anybody had a similar
problem or any suggestions? 

Thanks in advance
     
Henry
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: Re: My Bicycle Helmet Experience
Date: 19 Aug 1992 23:00:30 GMT
Organization: Rice University

In article <1992Aug13.201412.27198@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM> jdm@rmtc.Central.Sun.COM (Jim Moore) writes:

>where he hit a dog and was launched airborne. He was going a bit slower

Not to diminish the seriousness of the injury to the human, but I
can't help wondering:  what happened to the dog?

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Actually I'm not clueless.  I'm conceptually challenged.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles