HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:26:04 EST
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio

He said he's coming here to set up shop.

Now, I know what I'm saying is unpopular, but I know what it's like to
have a family member attempt suicide twice, and by the grace of God, he
survived.  I, also, have attempted suicide because of this depression
that settles on me as a black cloak and is held at bay by Prozac.
I realize what I was giving up and am glad to have had a second chance
to live.

Evelyn Duncan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 12:31:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: school daze

oh dear, i forgot who i'm quoting here (sorry sorry)

>>2) If you answer "yes" to 1), can such reform be done internally?
>>I don't think so. I believe only the pressure
>>generated from losing students and resources (money), caused by a real

well, i don't think we can improve it through pressure of losing students.
when the school's lose students and resources, you will see a decline in
the willingness of the community to raise standards and funds. students go,
the better teachers go, the money goes.....

>>3) Is education a proper function of govt.?

definitely. we must have national standards in education, now more than ever
to compete globally. we should *raise* existing standards and back it up by
the necessary funding.

(kerry's interesting article deleted)

>I get the impression sometimes that "competitive marketplace" is supposed
>to be some kind of miracle cure for education -- but that we have

it seems that people confuse things .... we need an educated population to
compete internationally, but education should not be a competitive process.

>And the reasons range from unwillingness to make the necessary financial
>investment to unwillingness to make the necessary investment of time, to
>problems with union contracts, bloated bureaucracies, etc.

an example:  one of the local school districts with a high percentage of poor,
black students found that student scores were dropping below the standard for
which they needed to graduate high school. (the area is not inner city, but it
is depressed with a higher crime rate than most suburban communities around
these parts).  anyway, instead of doing the things needed to bring the district
up to par, they *lowered* the standards the students needed to meet.

-linda

>Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:20:13 PST
From:         Jonathan Fisher <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: New Congress, New Hopes
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>    Hopefully the new members in Congress from both sides of the fence are
> not so partisan as to put the good of their respective party ahead of the
> good of the people.  Maybe, just maybe things will be different.  If I am
> wrong then instead of children going to bed fearing a nuclear war they will
> instead fear the bills they will pay as adults.
>
> Carl---+
>
> PS  It seemed staged that Clinton was "astonsihed" that the deficit is larger
>     than he anticipated.
>

Carl,
The deficit estimates have increased by $100 Billion since July. This is
out of Clinton's control. This is why anyone should be astonished that the
deficit is larger than anticipated.  It is now approaching $400 Billion
when in July, it was generally assummed to be $290 Billion.

Jonathan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:21:28 GMT
From:         Dunstan_Vavasour <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: can oil do that?
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.acs.ohio-state.edu

T:
>Actually, I watched North Tonight last night, the Scottish News broadcast;
>they said that since their primary objective was to spray chemical
>dispersal (from planes flying 20-30 feet above the slick), the storm was
>not good news.

There's a lot of debate over whether the effect of the dispersants is
worse than the oil. They've moved quite a few people who live in the
area while this all goes on.

>
>They were reporting that the inclement weather would hinder this work, thereby
>increasing the scope of the problem.

The main result of the bad weather was that the barge onto which they
were going to offload the oil which hadn't already spilt couldn't get
near enough. Now the tanker has broken up and all that oil is in the
sea, the problem is worse. But the weather is dispersing the oil
pretty well.

>
>
>-T.

As for the question of liablility, it is likely that some sort of a
prosecution will be mounted, but the channel through which the tanker
was passing was a recognised international route. I doubt anything
will stick on the line themselves - though they might get the captain
for recklessness. Dunno. Don't expect anything in the league of Exxon Valdez.


Dunstan
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:43:37 -0600
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio
Comments: To: POLITICS%OHSTVMA.bitnet@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu

I would reiterate the statement made yesterday that Kevorkian's "clients"
appear to be the terminally ill, not the mentally ill and definitely not
troubled teenagers. All of the suicides I'm aware of that have been helped
by Kevorkian have been middle-aged to elderly women. Why no men I'm not
cognizant of. VMS
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 13:31:00 ET
From:         "Ellen.Edgerton" <EBEDGERT@SUADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: why gold - money qualit

Caius, I know this is an ad hominem attack, but please don't take it
personally:

YOU ARE SO BORING!!!!!

Have a nice day.     :)
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:16:00 EST
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Intent and thoughts: a puzzlement
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@UCF1VM.CC.UCF.EDU>

>         Let's take it to private email, Jamie.  I don't think the rest of the
> list want's to see N hundred lines of us saying DID NOT  DID TOO

Sure we do!  It's a helluva lot better than some of what's appeared on
this list :-).

Today has turned into one of those "interesting" (old Chinese curse
meaning of the word) days.  More comments on Monday, assuming no major
disasters before then.

Personal to Rufus: my comments were _not_ intended to be patronizing or
insulting, and I'm sorry they seemed that way to you.  My apologies.

Best,
Peter

> Brett'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:18:28 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Organization: Institute of Computer Science, Jagellonian University Cracow
Subject:      Re: Privatizations and standard of living
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              10, 93 11:16 pm

Ramon pisze:
>>
>> >>         By God, Tim! You are right! Maybe it's time to stop all that
>> >> nonsense and let a mixed economy work. Who knows? It might actually do
 some
>> >> good!
>>
>> >Most of the African countries are already mixed economies and they do not
>> >seem to work.
>> >Caius.
>>
>>         As has been my "theme song" here in the past, their economies do
>> not operate on a vacuum. They have internal problems, but they also have to
>> deal with a very unfair world market system and are saddled by centuries of
>> colonialism and destructive influences imported by "foreign investors" who
>> make a quick buck exploiting them.
>>
>>  - Ramon
>>
It is interesting to note, that the economies were developing in the past,
under destructive influence of colonialism, and now they are stopped to do so.

Maybe they spend too much on military. Maybe they spend too much on central
developments programs.

Caius
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 12:25:31 PST
From:         Jonathan Fisher <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: Visit Colorado - #2
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>    Admendment 2 in Colorado does not deny any homosexuals of any
> constitutional rights.
> [...]
>    There are laws on the books that do prevent people being discriminated
> against in housing and employment.  There are laws that prohibit violent
> actions against all people.  These laws have not been changed.  If people
> feel that they can engage in this behavior because of #2 then they are
> wrong.  Admendment 2 does not condone violent behavior against homosexuals,
> or puting them in camps.  All admendment 2 was passed for was to deny
> homosexuals a minority status.
>
>
> Carl---+
>
Carl,
It's obvious that you have either never read Amendment 2 or you have biased
your interpretation of it.  Below is the full text of the amendment.  Below
that is one thread through it.  As you can see, it directly contradicts
your above statements.


AMENDMENT 2  (AMENDING THE COLORADO CONSTITUTION)
   "Neither the State of Colorado, through any of its branches or
departments, nor any of its agencies, political subdivisions,
municipalities or school districts, shall enact, adopt or enforce
any statute, regulation, ordinance or policy whereby homosexual,
lesbian, or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or
relationships shall constitute or otherwise be the basis of or
entitle any person or class of persons to have or claim any
minority status, quota preferences, protected status, or claim of
discrimination."

or in other words,...

"The State of Colorado shall not enforce any statute whereby homosexual
relationships shall be the basis of any person to have a claim of
discrimination."

Jonathan
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:20:00 EST
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quota laws, allegedly; and evidence
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@UCF1VM.CC.UCF.EDU>

Breaking my own resolution:

>         Nope.  Some discrimination laws are clearly meant to rectify
> "problems" for which there is no proof:
>
>         Laws that decree you have to rent to anyone who hands you a check.
> Clearly this is a pro-active law designed to prevent discrimination.  Yet what
> it does is assume that all landlords will discriminate if given the chance.

Oh, come on now!  Then the laws against fraud assume that all vendors
will defraud the public if given the chance, too.  And what about laws
against assault?

>         Let's look at a similar law (hypothetical, at this point) for guns:
> everyone who purchases a gun must submit to yearly polygraphs to "prove" they
> committed no crimes with them.  Clearly proactive in that it assumes all gun
> buyers will committ crimes, if given the chance.

Let's look at actual practice: no investigation takes place until there
is some kind of complaint.  That's the way other laws work, too.

NOW I'm leaving!  More Monday, I hope.

Best,
Peter

> Brett'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:57:18 CST
From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA%SDSUMUS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU>
Subject:      freedom from discrimination
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> > From Robert
> > Freedom from discrimination is not a right.
>
> That is one of the most pernicious, and plain _wrong_ statements one
> can make.  The entire history of the United States says (though
> often ironically) that this view is wrong.
>
    if freedom from discrimination is a right, how then do we make
sure that people can exercise that right? let's look at what happens
if we act on this statement.

   it appears that discrimination can come from two sources; the law,
and people. if you are speaking of discrimination based on inequality
before the law, i would agree with you that this should be eliminated.
but are would going to dig into people's minds to make sure that they
don't discriminate? do we need thought police to stop racist/sexist/etc
attitudes?

> But I will give you this: at least you're up front about it.  Most of
> the people who hold this view try to cover it up with a bunch of
> outrageous lies about "special rights" and similar balderdash.  So
> my hat's off to you for being honest enough to acknowledge that the
> debate really _is_ about discrimination.
>

   "outrageous lies"? peter, if i and a black person apply for a job,
and both of us are equally qualified, affirmative action dictates that
the black person gets the job. even if the black person is somewhat
less qualified, the black person still gets the job. would you please
tell me how this is not a special right, denied to whites?

> Best,
> Peter

rtf
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re:      Packwood & Clinton - Compare
Date: 7 Jan 1993 13:43 PST
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <POLITICS%93010713572112@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,       
  "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET> writes...
>   Some on this list are advocating that Packwood stalled the discussion
>about his misconduct until the elections were over and that this was
>dishonest, bad and so on.  What about Clinton?  It seems as if every night
>on the news the past two weeks the stories have been "Clinton said this
>before, now after he is saying this" on issue after issue.  Is Clinton a
>bad boy too?  I'm waiting to hear the justifications.

Clinton was not being investigated for sexual harassment by the press. 

							Dan, ad nauseum
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:31:00 AST
From:         Ramon <R_ALEMAN@UPR1.UPR.CLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Privatizations and standard of living
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

>  You are a fine one to be talking about dictatorships, Ramon.
>(Or absentee landlords, for that matter.  ;-)

        Aaah, but virtual dictatorships are quite another thing entirely!
Remember I banished Dan Evens, put Jimbo to work overtime (and made him
lose the election), and brought prosperity and order to this list. Don't
you long for the Old Order ? :-)

>  But, to the point; "communism" has not had much success in Africa,
>either.  Been to Ethiopia recently?  I'm not sure that the blame for
>the problems in the third world is properly levelled at the economic
>system that the relevant strongmen pay lip-service to.  I think you
>would do better to blame it on cold war politics (and proxy wars)
>over the last 50 years, and perhaps the "peace dividend" of a huge
>military industrial complex (on both sides) trying to prop itself
>up by arming anyone who'll pay.
>
>                      -el Presidente

        By God, Tim! You are right! Maybe it's time to stop all that
nonsense and let a mixed economy work. Who knows? It might actually do some
good!

 - Ramon
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:00:56 -0400
From:         The Integral Differential <DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: it's a wonderful life
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

>as a smoker's as a house.  This may be another attempt at belittling
>a segment of society in the same way racial discrimination belittled
>people of color in the past.  Smokers are the Negroes of the nineties.
>   toddddddddd

        Being black harms no one around you.  Smokers can't say the same thing.

Brett'
(I used to smoke.)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:24:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Uncl: Re: Uncl: ActUp/RI joins Colorado Boycott

You know, it took me a few months...I kept wondering who it was that Robert
reminded me of...then, he said the following and it hit me:


>I happen to be in the group that does not like my drinking water
>fluoridated, that makes me a minority.


"That's right, Mandrake.  Flouridation.  They're trying to deprive me of
my precious bodily fluids, Mandrake...they take them out and replace them
with flouride.  How?  Drinking water.  Don't let them use flouridation...
it'll take away our precious bodily fluids."

Yep, that's Robert.  Same thing would probably happen with equivalent power,
too.


Easy to guess the reference; anyone (without looking at all your video guides)
know the actor?



-T.
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Organization: York University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:57:54 EST
From:         MMORSE@YORKVM1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality and nature/nurture

Dear Anjani,
  The only thing which may be "inappropriate" in your posting on
homosexuality & nature/nurture is its atypical rationality. As I'm
afraid you'll discover for yourself soon enough, this list is infested
with gay-bashing rightists who will bend any principle in order to
"justify" the legal and extra-legal harassment of fellow human beings
whose values they do not understand. Please do not interpret the wide-
spread silences which routinely greet amoral outrages of this type
as consent by the list. The fact is that most of the list-members who
have the good fortune to fall into the category of higher primate have
stopped responding to the more lewd and ludicrous gaybashers. And why
not? They're evidently deaf as well as dull-witted & cruel. But hope
springs eternal. If you think you can make a dent in leaden skulls of
people who have to look up their moral principles in the one book they
actually own, good luck to you. In any case, please stick around for
more convivial discussion with the more congenial listers.
Cheers,
Michael
Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:55:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio

>Helping someone to kill him/herself bothers me; don't those people know what
>their suicides mean to their family and friends?

>Evelyn

Don't those family & friends know what living with pain, sickness and
a virtual death sentence means to the terminally ill?

-T.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 07:28:02 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Uncl: Re: Uncl: re: Colorado boycott

From:         Robert Moss <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>

> Needless to say, I am at odds with your point.  All 3 activities are
> *chosen*.  .........................................................

Implied in  claiming homosexuality is "chosen" is that *IF* it
was NOT chosen then Robert's attitude toward it would change.
I don't believe this for a moment, for, it appears that the basis
for Robert's objection is not that homosexuality is chosen but that
it is declared immoral by his faith.

Usually anti-homosexual people bring up the voluntary nature of
being homosexual when pro-homosexual people bring up the analogy
with blacks.  The (anti-homosexual) argument (if you can call it
that) is that being black is not voulntary but being homosexual
is.

As if being black is equally "immoral" but is forgiven JUST because
it is involuntary.  What a pathetic argument!

--KAT
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From: CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Uncl: RE: Uncl: Re: Uncl: re: Colorado boy
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:20:00 GMT
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"

>I agree both that homosexuality is not unnatural, and with T that
>it is RARELY relevant to mention the sexual practices of animals
>when making claims about the sexual practices of humans.
>But I think T goes to far. Humans ARE animals. Our biology is
>continuous with that of the rest of the animal kingdom. We do,
>occasionally, learn things about ourselves from studies of other
>critters, especially primates.
>
>Where's Kerry?
>
>Jamie

While our biology may be continuous with the animal kingdom, things such as
human sexual practices are far too dependent upon environmental factors to
closely equate them with those of animals.

While I accept the premise that sexual orientation probably comes from a
genetic predisposition, that does not predestine the outcome.  There are too
many "filters", ie experiences, tastes, likes & dislikes, etc, to believe that
biology settles the sexual preference matter.

The key difference, I would argue, is choice.  Animals have little to no
ability to make such choices;  humans obviously do.

If you want to use animal examples to discuss purely biological and certain
basic sociological points about humans, agreed.  The higher order of complex
thought and the nature of individual choice, IMO, rules out an area like sexual
orientation.

I do believe that we have much to learn from animals, even regarding sex; I
simply bristle when I hear "animals don't do X, so it's unnatural for humans
to do X."


-T.
From: CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Addiction as Disease
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:30:00 GMT
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"I'll take Blatant Ignorance for $500, Alex."

"and the answer is:"

>       there's probably a twelve-step program for it, too, if you can
>be bothered to look it up. it's probably in minnesota, the world
>capital of the nauseating things. "i admit that i have no control
>over my life, and therefore i'm handing over myself to people who
>give me free coffee in exchange for public self-abasement."
>
>rtf


"Ummm...."

"Five seconds..."

"Uhhh, what is The Most Blatantly Ignorant Statement on Record?"

"That's right!"



-T.
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