HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: can
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 19:55:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.141614.19714@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
>My goodness.
>
>What type of car, and what license plates, does Mr. Christopher Browne has?
>
>Should we elevate this to my bringing out my modest driving skills and
>do a classic harassing maneuver on Mr. Browne after he's impolitely
>passed someone on the road? 

Did I say that those "tailgating harassers" were in the right?
No, I was answering someone that said that they refuse to change lanes
for someone who wishes to pass.

You've got a choice:  You can let the "jerks" go past, or you can be a
jerk yourself.

And you're assuming that my "attack" on those that refuse to relinquish
the left lane means that I'm one of the tailgaters/brutal speeders.

>The absurd attitude Mr. Browne has should be reason enough for a
>traffic offence, and in the social domain, he deserves be shunned.

>My position: yes, stay to the right, but for those who don't, and they
>are going at or above the speed limit, I try my best to make my way
>past them quietly, safely, and without harassing them, over on the right
>side -- politely.

Good strategy.  Politeness on the road is almost always the best idea.
And it should be shown by both passers, and passees.

-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
From: pacolley@ember.UUCP (Paul Colley)
Newsgroups: ont.general
Subject: Re: sidebar re 401
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:40:39 GMT
Reply-To: pacolley@ember.UUCP (Paul Colley)
Distribution: can
Organization: Ember---private system

In article <3149@isgtec.isgtec.com> robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne) writes:
>pacolley@ember.UUCP (Paul Colley) writes:
>> For the life of me, what motivates Toronto drivers?  Some deep,
>> pathological fear of another driver getting where they want to go?
>
>No,  they actually believe that if you get ahead of them you are
>beating them;  you are winning and they are losing.

No, it must go deeper than that.  These are people who were behind
us, and seemed content to stay behind us, until we revealed our
desire to change lanes by signalling.

(Well, as content as Toronto drivers can ever be, I guess...)

- Paul Colley
University:  colley@qucis.queensu.ca
Home:        pacolley@ember.uucp   watmath!ember!pacolley  +1 613 545 3807
"Quantum Mechanics:  The dreams stuff is made of"    - Ken Burnside

Newsgroups: ont.general,ott.general
From: mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel)
Subject: Re: sidebar re 401
Organization: Department of Chemistry, University of Toronto
Distribution: can
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:25:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.131933.24200@bnr.ca> alanw@bnr.ca writes:
>I also learned to drive in the Toronto area, and now live with Ottawa's
>awful drivers.  [...]
>Some other rules from the unofficial driver's guide to Ottawa :-)
>-- OC Transpo (local transit) drivers run red lights, and do 80 km/hr in
>   40 km/hr zones.

     I've never noticed TTC vehicles speeding, but few of them pay much
heed to traffic lights.  Streetcars are particularly notorious
offenders.

>-- Pedestrians will step out in front of you, ignoring any traffic light.

     Are you from the same Toronto as I'm currently living in?  How is
this different from the manner in which Toronto pedestrians cross
streets, especially downtown?
     Let's face it:  At least some of the misbehaviour of Ottawa drivers
is attributable to the pitiful excuse they have for a cross-city
expressway.  Toronto has far better roads than Ottawa, thus minimizing
the temptation to make idiotic maneuvers.  There are plenty of poor
drivers in both cities, not to mention suicidal pedestrians and
cyclists.

				Marc R. Roussel
                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Note:  I have removed all but ont.general and ott.general from the
       Newsgroups line.  I don't see that this thread particularly
       belongs in can.general, nor what it has to do with Canadian
       culture.
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: zeke@meadow.uucp (Samuel Lee)
Subject: Re: sidebar re 401
Reply-To: zeke@meadow.UUCP (Samuel Lee)
Organization: Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 19:54:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.215158.3814@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>> I've never noticed TTC vehicles speeding, but few of them pay much
>> heed to traffic lights.

>Given the TTC's safety record, though, it seems rather unlikely that
>that red-light running could really be rampant.  My personal experience
>certainly says that it isn't.

I'd have to agree with the original poster.  TTC drivers can get away with bloody murder.  I've seen bus drivers START to cross an intersection AFTER the light
has turned red.  And the safety record thing doesn't really have anything to do
with it...they probably base their statistics on convictions of drivers on 
moving violations, and everyone knows that the cops NEVER cite TTC drivers,
and if a motorist and a TTC vehicle get in an accident, it's ALWAYS the motoristwho is at fault.  As far as I know, I've never heard of a civilian winning a
traffic case against the TTC.  They're NEVER at fault.  

-- Zeke.

Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada
From: pky@meadow.uucp (Peter Yeung)
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Reply-To: pky@meadow.UUCP (Peter Yeung)
Organization: Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 14:44:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.030436.16402@unixg.ubc.ca> buckland@ucs.ubc.ca (Tony Buckland) writes:
>In article <3101@isgtec.isgtec.com> robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne) writes:
>>>  When I'm driving at the limit, I'll be buggered if
>>>  I'll inconvenience myself to accomodate somebody else's demand
>>>  that he be allowed to drive at whatever speed suits him.
>>Nice attitude.  Self-rightous jerk.
>>It's ok for you to break the 'slower traffic keep right' and
>>'stay right accept to pass' laws in order to keep me from breaking
>>the speeding laws.  Is this a theory of crime control that you
>>subscribe to or does it only apply to traffic control.
>
>  I'm not that interested in controlling other people's crimes.
>  That's the province of professionals (police) I pay to keep the
>  peace.  What I am interested in is enjoying the exercise of my
>  own rights and privileges under the law.  Nobody among the
>  several private and public responders to my remarks has yet
>  explained, except in terms such as that I am a jerk, why I should
>  put myself out so that someone else can have instant gratification
>  for their demands that I get out of their way SO THAT THEY CAN
>  BREAK THE LAW.

Exactly, everyone have to exercise their constitutional rights
to drive on the PASSING LANE!!! Hell with those speeders, they are breaking the
law and they deserve it if they have to make dangerous manuvers like passing
on the right! I just don't understand why I should pull to the right when
those speeders are in a hurry, they should get up earlier! BTW, 100Km/Hr
speed limit sounds too fast for me anyway, I just don't understand why it is
not lower such that more people can execerise their constitutional rights. You
know, I feel really bad for those beat up eco-boxes which can only travel safely
at 90Km/hr and get tailgated by all those flashy sports cars!

;-) ;-) ;-) for those humour impaired!

-- 
Peter Yeung     Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center
                2000 Argentia Road, Plaza 2, Suite 300
                Mississauga, Ont.   L5N 1V8
                Phone: (416) 542-6300    Fax: (416) 858-2233
Xref: sparky ont.general:1525 can.general:3942 soc.culture.canada:5686
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:20:51 GMT
Distribution: can

rph@sq.sq.com (Pontus Hedman (VE3RPH)) writes:
> I've never quite understood the ongoing Toronto fuss about
> 
> 1. tailgating, and
> 2. passing on the right.
> 
> I've been driving highways regularly for about 6 years now in Toronto and I
> almost *never* get tailgated or passed on the right. Honest. My secret?
> It's no secret. It's well known in other parts of the world.
> 
> 	Gravitate to the right.

It's also the law.  But any speeder is *far* more dangerous than any
other kind of driver, except anybody with a blood alcohol level greater
than .08, so the police leave "left lane bandits" and every other type
of traffic offender alone.

> If somebody can come up with a good argument for why any highway driver
> *shouldn't* "Gravitate To The Right", I'd be interested in hearing it.

Well the arguments you will hear are:

    "I'm driving the speed limit so nobody should be passing me"

    "I was taught to stay to the left:  it's the safest lane"
     (It seems there are idiotic driving instructers teaching this!!)
 
    "School buses, airport limos, taxis, shuttle buses, and cops all
     do it so it must be okay."
 
    "Hmmm, I never really thought about it.  Then again I don't
     give a shit about anybody but myself anyways."
 
Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada,ott.general
From: bdb@becker.GTS.ORG (Bruce Becker)
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Organization: G. T. S., Toronto, Ontario
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:20:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.031451.16659@unixg.ubc.ca> buckland@ucs.ubc.ca (Tony Buckland) writes:
|
| If I'm moving at the speed limit, there is only one class of vehicles
| that have a valid reason for wanting to go faster, and that consists
| exclusively of emergency vehicles with their flashing lights,
| sirens or whatever in operation.  Anyone else wanting to go faster
| is someone who wants to break the law.  I feel no more compulsion
| to satisfy their wants than I do regarding someone who is trying to
| pick my front door lock.  The moment I drop measurably below the
| speed limit, an entirely different set of rules comes into operation,
| and I should (and in fact must) move right to accomodate anyone
| who wants to proceed at the posted limit.  If that seems like a
| quite arbitrary line, so be it; the law is full of such lines -
| remember the original "dead line" in Dodge City?


	I'm fairly certain that the law in Ontario requires
	one to give way to *anyone* who wishes to pass, no
	matter what speed you or they are traveling at.


	Of course both you and the person passing would
	be charged by the OPP if they happened along at
	that time 8^)


-- 
  ,u,	 Bruce Becker			Toronto, Ontario
a /i/	 Internet: bdb@becker.gts.org	Uucp: ...!web!becker!bdb
 `\o\-e	 "We want the worm, and we want a cow!"
 _< /_	 	- More Jimison, ordering drinks for his table
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: marc@tanda.isis.org (Marc Thibault)
Reply-To: marc@tanda.isis.org
Newsgroups: ont.general
Subject: Re: Ontario government releases revised bicycle policy
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 09:21:37 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: Thibault & Friends


        OK - so, for the average cyclist, wearing a helmet reduces the
        probability of severe cranial damage from .0000054 to
        .0000014. - by weird twists of logic, a 75% improvement.

        This has just about the same effect on your health as buying
        four Lottario tickets instead of one has on your annual
        income.

        On the other hand - mandatory helmets would create an instant
        $100,000,000 business in Ontario alone, delivering a
        $40,000,000 tax windfall, a thousand private sector jobs,
        several hundred administrative and enforcement (government)
        jobs, not counting the standards testing and certifying jobs
        created by new products entering the market. Note the prime
        beneficiaries: civil service, law enforcement, CSA, helmet
        manufacturers, sporting goods dealers and their cycle club
        shills. Not by accident (or altruism) are these the people
        (in addition to compulsive safety nazis) pushing for helmet
        laws.

        (some of the numbers above are WAGs, so if anybody has
        authoritative sources to quote, I'm sure we'd all love to see
        them)

---
 Marc Thibault        |                              |  Any Warming,
 marc@tanda.isis.org  |  Oxford Mills, Ontario       |  Global or otherwise,
 CIS:71441,2226       |     Canada                   |   appreciated.

Xref: sparky ont.general:1634 can.general:4058 soc.culture.canada:5859
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada,ott.followup
Subject: Re: Refusing to yield right of away out of moral indignation
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:32:17 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 2478

In article <1992Aug16.031451.16659@unixg.ubc.ca> buckland@ucs.ubc.ca
 Tony Buckland writes:

>In article <Bt1E2s.4x4@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
>>In article <riskit-140892143559@47.201.0.36>, riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes) writes:
>>>    BTW, what makes you so sure that the guy tailgating is a jerk. 
>>> Maybe he has a valid reason for wanting to go faster. You don't know and
>>> is not up to you to judge. (If you follow the letter of the law, it is 
> If I'm moving at the speed limit, there is only one class of vehicles
> that have a valid reason for wanting to go faster, and that consists
> exclusively of emergency vehicles with their flashing lights,
> sirens or whatever in operation.  Anyone else wanting to go faster
> is someone who wants to break the law.

  Sometimes it is necessary to break the law - it happened to me once and
  I would do it again without question:-

  I received a phone call from my, panic-stricken, wife while I was at
  my office one day.

  She had stepped out of the house to deposit the garbage at the sidewalk
  for collection. (We had no front garden then)

  Our son, who was about 18 months old at the time, had pushed the front 
  door closed and locked my wife out of the house.

  What was the panic?

  My wife believed that the door to the basement (stairs) was open.

  Rather than risk having my son fall down those stairs I yelled "OK,
  I'M ON MY WAY!" over the phone; grabbed my keys; did not stop to explain
  my sudden anxious departure to my colleagues, superiors or reception;
  jumped into the car and flew home; foot to the floor, main beam on,
  hazard lights flashing, honking any one suffering from self-righteous
  moral indignation out of the way!

  If a police cruiser had decided to give chase he would have had to have
  followed me home!

  It should be pretty obvious, even to an idiot like you, that someone
  on your tail with main beam, hazard lights and horn at full power must
  be in some kind of legitimate hurry!

  I hope you don't get in my way if something like that ever happens to
  me again!

  Your type cause accidents!

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada,ott.general
From: buckland@ucs.ubc.ca (Tony Buckland)
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Organization: University of B.C. Computing Services
Distribution: can
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 17:04:12 GMT

 I started out including previous postings, but junked them all
 when I realized I was creating one of those four-levels-deep,
 multi-screened monsters with a few lines of fresh material at
 the end for anyone with the patience not to junk the article
 before reaching them.
 
 It's about time I got back to the original scenario I posited
 for being passed on the right, which was traffic heavy enough
 to offer only minimal opportunities for moving right and heavy
 enough to ensure that I wouldn't likely be able to get back
 out of the slow lane if I got into it (then I raved about lead
 feet and so on, which is the part that got all the attention).
 Maybe it bears some emphasis, that I yield courteously - and
 with an eye to survival - when I reasonably can, and that I figure
 my judgement of what is "reasonable" leads to conformance with
 the law about moving right.
 
 I get steamed - a dangerous behavior behind the wheel, I have to
 admit while sitting calmly at a keyboard, but a behavior I think
 an awful lot of indulge in - not at all people who expect me to
 move over, but at people who demand (with - illegal - tailgating,
 or with lights or horn) that I get out of their way, at my own
 inconvenience and possibly, due to the inadequacy of the space
 available, at my own danger, so that - and this can't be
 emphasized enough - they
                     can
                     break
                     the
                     law.
 
 People have been suggesting appropriate behaviors on my part.
 Let me make one countersuggestion: if you come up behind me,
 and I'm going slower than you, and you look down and see you're
 speeding, say to yourself, "Oh gosh, I'm speeding; and oh my,
 if I keep this up I'll also be following too close," and then
                     slow
                     down.
 If you reach the limit, and I'm still in your way, _then_ you
 have the right to expect me to get out of your way, and to convey
 your expectations to me in one of the conventional ways.  But
 while you're breaking the law, you have zero right to demand that
 other people make it easy for you to do so; you have only the
 power of your engine, and the threat - which I admit often
 intimidates me into doing what you want, principles and annoyance
 notwithstanding - of the venting of your instant anger at being
 thwarted.
 
 Note to newcomers to the group, who may be surprised at the length
 and vehemence of this thread: we do this every year or so, and we
 always say more or less the same things, in varying order.
 Eventually we will all sputter out again.
Xref: sparky ont.general:1570 can.general:3988 soc.culture.canada:5742
From: mcneil@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: done
Date: 14 Aug 92 01:16:58 -0700
Distribution: can
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <1992Aug10.123154.3261@eci386.uucp>, rstory@eci386.uucp (Robert Story) writes:
> In article <1992Aug7.204028.4262@bnr.ca> dwjz@bnr.ca writes:
> |In article <1992Aug7.164304.21478@eci386.uucp>, rstory@eci386.uucp (Robert Story) writes:
> ||> [...]           This bunches up traffic and *forces* one to go
> ||> around on their right side.  This is, of course, illegal BUT they
> ||> don't respond to flashing lights and *other* hints. [...]
> |
> |In Ontario, passing on the right on a multi-lane highway or freeway _is_
> |legal.  However, one of the rules in the HTA (Highway Traffic Act) is 
> |that slower traffic keep right.  If everybody did this, nobody would 
> |_need_ to pass on the right.
> 
> Amen to that, brother!
> 
> BTW, in the US multi-lane, limited access highways are called
> freeways, in Britain motorways, in France Autoroutes, in Germany
> Autobahns ... what do Canadians call 'em?

Ecological Disasters, Neighbourhood destroyers

> 
> -Robert.
> -- 
>  _________________________________________________________________________
>  Robert.Story@Elegant.COM                      Elegant Communications Inc.
>  Tel: +1 416 595 5425                         481 University Av. Suite 602
>  Fax: +1 416 595 5439                     Toronto, Ontario; CANADA M5G 2E9
Newsgroups: ont.general
From: riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes)
Subject: Re: sdebar re passing or right (was sidebar re 401 (: -))
Followup-To: ont.general,can.general,soc.culture.canada,ott.general
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:55:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.031451.16659@unixg.ubc.ca>, buckland@ucs.ubc.ca (Tony
Buckland) wrote:
> 
> In article <Bt1E2s.4x4@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
> >In article <riskit-140892143559@47.201.0.36>, riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes) writes:
> >>    BTW, what makes you so sure that the guy tailgating is a jerk. 
> >> Maybe he has a valid reason for wanting to go faster. You don't know and
> >> is not up to you to judge. (If you follow the letter of the law, it is 
> >> up to you to move to the right to allow traffic to progress. It's also 
> >> common sense.) 
> 
>  If I'm moving at the speed limit, there is only one class of vehicles
>  that have a valid reason for wanting to go faster, and that consists
>  exclusively of emergency vehicles with their flashing lights,
>  sirens or whatever in operation. 

   Emergency vehicles may not have flashing lights. You don't know 
who is driving behind you and why. 4 years ago a farm boy cut his 
foot off in a farming accident. The 3 persons who found him carried 
him to a local house which was locked. They broke in, stole the keys 
to a car in the drive way and 2 of them rushed the boy to the hospital. 
On the way some idiot wound not let them pass. However the police had 
been notified of the emergency and the route they were taking by the 
one person who remain at the house. Two police cars where in the 
area, one pull the idot over and wrote him/her a ticket the other 
police car then open the route to the hospital. The boy still 
lost his foot. 

    I'll say it again. No driver has the right to impede another. If 
there is a person who is behind you is tailgating get out of the 
way. You don't know why he is tailgating. He may have a valid reason, 
he may not. Do you what to risk your life to find out if he/she is 
psychotic who is willing to risk your life or or families? 


> Anyone else wanting to go faster
>  is someone who wants to break the law. 

   Again, you just don't know. Maybe it's a doctor rushing to the 
hospital for an emergency. Slowing him down would be to 
endanger someone else. 

>  I feel no more compulsion
>  to satisfy their wants than I do regarding someone who is trying to
>  pick my front door lock. 
    
   Three people broke into a house and stole a car. Was it wrong or 
did the situation require that action? Laws are put in place as 
guides not as absolutes and should be viewed as such. 


***********************************
riskit@x400gate.bnr.ca (Reg Foulkes)

No passion on earth, no love or hate
Is equal to the passion 
to change someone else's code
Newsgroups: ont.general