HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gc2n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Greg K Chung)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: F4->ALL  Who's that idiot cloaked in KLISPACE!
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:40:17 GMT
	<1992Oct11.200116.24266@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 12-Oct-92 Re:
Dogfighting....again :( Chris Siebenmann@hawkwin (845)


> kb32+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Michael Bernatz) writes (about ogging):
> | I say "bronco" netrek because it *is* different than bezier/berkeley
> | netrek and I'm sure everyone would agree with me.

>  Personal observation: bronco netrek is only different from bezier
> netrek if you are fighting people who care about rank. Ogging works
> fine on *both* style of servers, and will help you win games (possibly
> a lot); one merely could not gain rank while doing it a lot on bezier.

>  Clearly a lot of people care about rank, since people say that this
> does make a difference.

> --
>     ported program:	  a program which takes constant or increasing
> 			  effort to port to each new machine.
>     portable program: a program which takes less effort to port to
> 		      each new machine.
> cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu	           


The difference is the bronco is a sane server.  No 3 race scumming.  No
obscene det radius.  And with the old bezier, obscene 8 against 4 games
with free bombing of third race etc.
From: spot@CS.CMU.EDU (Scott Draves)
Subject: Re: Ok you scum
Originator: spot@HOPELESS.MESS.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<seqt1f200VB1Q3yFVJ@andrew.cmu.edu> <1bgfi6INNq33@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 08:02:05 GMT

>>>>> On 14 Oct 1992 06:43:18 GMT, tom@soda.berkeley.edu (Tom Holub) said:

mojo> Not only is it really cheap, it keeps new players from learning
mojo> the real meat of the game (coordinating on taking the core
mojo> worlds, and

if you're taking core worlds, you've already won.  it's the front line
planets that are actually the important battles.


mojo> phaserlocking cloakers).

why single out this skill?


mojo> And what pisses people off is that not only do good players *do*
mojo> it, they recommend it as a valid strategy on rec.games.netrek.

of course they do.  LPSs can be unwinnable without player turnover,
and many people don't enjoy them.


-- 
			organize
Scott Draves		enumerate
spot@cs.cmu.edu		file
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 02:28:28 -0400 
From: "Timothy C. Worsley" <tw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: ZZnew Guy's objections
	<Bw6JDA.JJ6.2@cs.cmu.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 15-Oct-92 ZZnew Guy's objections
Robert Hill@norman.VI.RI (3186)

> Of course the NBR is an attempt to replace the old client with a better  
> one.  That's what program releases are for..to release a program/product  
> better than the past ones.  Why object to making the client interface  
> better?  I for one was REALLY (REALLY) sick of the message window.  The  
> newer clients allow you to "warp" to the message window or even type  
> directly on the screen...thank god for this advancement.

	I am not complaing about client interface.  All I'm bitching about is
the creaping mondo-ism.  This time it's visible tractors and locks. 
What will the next "improvement" be?  As you start making the client do
more for the player, NATURALLY players who have it don't want to give it
up.  
	As I understood it, NBR was coming out as a new server and new client. 
From what I've seen, what's been released is a client with all of the
info-borg options added, and that's all.  Let me ask this, if someone
had been using this client 2 months ago would you have not spoken out,
Rob?  Does this new client NOT change the game?  Is *that* the goal of
NBR, to change the rules of netrek?

ZZnew guy

"I don't like server changes intended change the game...no matter what they  
are." -- Spaceace
From: sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Subject: Re: Dogfighting....again :(
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 04:04:18 GMT

In article <92562@netnews.upenn.edu> botelle@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Justin Botelle) writes:
>In article <92552@netnews.upenn.edu) paulsen@stipple.seas.upenn.edu (FreeKill) writes:
>)In article <seq=g3a00VpFI2Nkll@andrew.cmu.edu) kb32+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Michael Bernatz) writes:
>))Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.netrek: 11-Oct-92 Re: Hell Peacock Scott
>))Drellishak@soda.be (4075)
>))
>))) Out of curiosity, is there anyone out there who thinks I have a point?
>))) So far, all I've seen is disagreement, and I find this discouraging.
>))
>)
>)The big problem Scott makes with his argument is that ogging is easy.
>)Ogging is easy against only clueless players.  Otherwise, it is very,
>)very difficult.  Justin will probably get flamed for how well he presents
>)himself as oggless, but its generally true.  Oggers can prevent people
>
>Well, I am waiting.  I don't expect any responses from Rob, Ceri, or Greg.
>We'll see.  I'm drooling in anticipation (flame-thrower on high, phasers
>set to kill, itchy 'F' finger engaged)
>
>)Brian
>
>Justin
>
 Probably there is a lot going on here that I am unaware of but I can
make a fool of myself anyway.

I suspect that there is a pretty big difference between ogging in an
INL game and ogging in a pick-up game.  I have never played INL but
would think that ogging there is easier due to much better communication
between players.  In pick-up games I find the most effective ogging
technique is to watch for when the oggie is most likely devoting a lot
of concentration to the tactical as opposed to the galactic.  In a 
solo open field ogg it is almost impossible to kill the opponent,
however the technique is useful for keeping her away from the intended
planet.

One useful trick that a friend and I have practiced is for one person
to go in uncloaked as if to deny the carrier the planet.  While this person
plays with the escort or carrier the other person comes in fast cloaked.

Mad DDogg
From: botelle@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Justin Botelle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: grow some balls!
Date: 8 Oct 92 02:16:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <0eomYw200UzxA3DWoh@andrew.cmu.edu) sk58+@andrew.cmu.edu (Shigehiro Kanaya) writes:
)Studies show that four out of five netrekkers have no testicles.  The
)ratio here is 3.5 to 1.  Even though most of you are from places with
)even ratios the only females you've ever come into contact with are
)klingons.

What's wrong with Klingons?

)Warp 9 out of the closet Scottie!!!!!
)
)You need testicles Number One.  Make it so.

Huh?  Mixing ST and ST-TNG.  Scottie == ST, #1 (& MIS)==ST-TNG
)
)In case any of you have the 'balls' to write back, my address is
)sk58+@andrew.cmu.edu.  Too bad none of you seem to.

But we've got the biggest.....

(and I'm just itching to tell you about them :)
From: sjsmith@cs.umd.edu (Stephen Joseph Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Blessed Borgs
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:41:38 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Maryland at College Park

This is getting ridiculous - is reserved.c available for ftp somewhere or
something?

This morning on rwd4 I had the dubious pleasure of playing with *two* blessed
borgs, both identifiable by distress calls:


mlee@avalanche.berkeley.edu

 O6->ORI  Distress Call from O6: 0% dmg, 100% shld, 2 armies!, 100% fuel
 O6->ORI  Distress Call from O6: 0% dmg, 100% shld, 2 armies!, 100% fuel


Next@coke.eng.umd.edu

 Od->ORI  Distress Call from Od: 0% damage, 17% shields, 19% fuel, 0 armies!


Can we get the new blessing scheme soon?  Pleeeeeeeeeeease?
From: leonard@mimsy.umd.edu (Leonard Dickens)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: INL: TWNN at Deep Hurting
Summary: TWNN genocides in about 60 minutes
Date: 8 Oct 92 01:44:07 GMT
Organization: Deep Thirteen, Gizmonics Institute

The Team with No Name brought the flamethrowers to Maryland tonight
for a no holds barred attack... they asked for pain, and they got it.
Little did they know we have Sandstorm projectors...

TWNN chose Rom, because both Kli and Fed had their agris a bit further
flung from the home planet.  We had geno in mind from the start.  DH
chose Fed, the superior choice of the two.  The game got underway only
15 minutes late, a new record for TWNN game and scrimmages.  (Kudos to
DH for this.)

DH was hurt by the absence of their normal base player, Centurion, and
their base was quickly ogged.  TWNN bombing also went well, leaving us
up slightly over 50 armies shortly into the game.  Our scumming was
not the most rapid, but steady.  DH put up spirited defenses of their
two agris, making our progress slow.  But they only had one scout
bombing, and never managed to bomb Dra until Wreck left it to move up.
So TWNN was never limited in armies.  In contrast, DH was flat most of
the game, and our oggers choked off what few armies they could pick
up.

We managed to get earth as our third to last planet, and quickly got
to LPS on Vega, a fuel/repair planet.  After one heartbreakingly
beatiful clear for MUCUS PIG where the planet popped as he dropped, we
scrounged up a few more ruined attempts, but finally rammed down the
last army through a hail of detted torpedos.

Genocide at about 60 minutes.

-Wreck
 Minister of Information, TWNN
From: sfd@soda.berkeley.edu (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Hell Peacock
Date: 11 Oct 1992 07:24:12 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <AepWOFC00Vp303dXIl@andrew.cmu.edu> nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nanci Ann Miller) writes:
)mdm@stegosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Moore) writes:
)>         The only mods I recall were that when you died with armies on 
)> bezier it did not print it out to the all board.  This, it seems to
)> me, would only discourage those oggers who were interested in gloating.
) [ SOME STUFF DELETED ]
)>         There were other, more exotic mods proposed (ship explosions
)> proportionate to fuel, etc...) which would discourage ogging, but I
)> don't recall them being instituted as a regular part of the server (though
)> I could be wrong).
)
)I think that the "mod" that is being referred to here is the defense
)criterion for rank.  For a long time on bezier you needed to have a minimum
)defense of .8 to gain rank.  Ogging is not only an effective tactic, but
)also a good way to increase stats (5*armies helps a lot).  However, with a
)defense criterion, people are less willing to ogg, especially if they are
)worried about rank at all.  Granted, rank isn't supposed to mean anything,
)but then, that's only in theory.
)
)Nanci

In both cases (no reporting of armies killed, and the 0.8 minimum
defense) were parts of netrek long before bronco.  For a while, bezier
reported army kills, because it seemed like a cool idea -- until I
realized that it gave the other team too much information.  For
instance, in a LPS, it's sometimes nice to build up armies by carrying
them, so the other team doesn't know where they are -- with no army
kills reported, they'd have to kill everyone with kills to be sure
they got the armies, while, with army kills reported, they can stop
when they "find" the armies.  I thought this was too much of an
advantage.  The only real point of the army kills being reported is
for gloating, and I thought that the extra information they gave
detracted from the game.

In any case, bezier ran something very much like vanilla netrek.  I
would argue instead that the *lack* of the 0.8 defense rating, which
was originally installed because it was *too* *easy* to get rank by
suiciding (this was before the term "ogg") enemy players.  The sequent
server gods decided (rightly, I think) that a good player should have
to survive confrontations to gain rank.

More CMU arrogance.  bronco netrek was a sub-variety of netrek, but
some people seem to think of it as "correct".
-- 
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   sfd@neuromancer.metaphor.com                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Ogging/bombing/dogfighting
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:11:56 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

> >Benjamin T Dehner writes
> >Then you are clueless.  Not a flame, but a fact.
> 
> 	Oh, darn  And for a minute I thought your opinions were going to
> be worth something.
> 
> Cthulhu

It is simple strategy to know that armies win games.  The team that uses  
more armies than their enemy will almost always win.  You stated that  
dogfighting is as important as ogging and bombing.  That is a cluelss  
view....dogfighting rarely kills armies.  Bombing destroys alot of armies,  
ogging destroys some armies.

When I first started playing tournaments, I couldn't dogfight.  It was a  
huge concern of mine that I would be able to get kills so I could planet  
scum (my original calling).  I found getting kills is simple...even  
against good dogfighting teams.

Learning that armies is the only thing that matters is a huge step in  
overcoming cluelessness.  Until you realize this, you are indeed clueless  
in my book.

IAState is improving, but you have a lot to learn, still.

Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: sjsmith@cs.umd.edu (Stephen Joseph Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Tmode scumming
Summary: Sheesh
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:50:56 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Maryland at College Park

In article <Oct07.190047.9310@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> myself writes:
>Actually, Rudy, it wasnt the bad scumming where the person logged in and let all the
>fake players sit there......
>
>....ya see he was testing a new robot......and was checking out how it worked and fought.....
>
>...I should know, I was just on the same server a few minutes before you logged on...and was
>fighting the robots.....
>
>......Dont be in such a hurry to judge someone until ya know the facts.......

As I understand it (ever hear of 72 or 80 columns, "myself"?), the
facts are:

1) There were four humans playing in the game.
2) There were > 8 ships in the game, causing T-mode.

This leads us to a conclusion:
3) T-mode SCUMMING.

I don't care if you're testing a new robot or new borg or new keymap
or how to play while picking your nose.  Don't T-mode scum.

- Gamera
From: botelle@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Justin Botelle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: The neverending thread
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:14:56 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <124i03QRabRX00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com) fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden) writes:
)
)Give it a rest.  It doesn't matter whether you've been ogged or not.  How
)important can all of this be?

Not very.
)
)Don't look for signs of Netrek addiction in how many hours you play, look for
)them in how seriously you react to these postings.  Is it an escape from
)reality, or is it your life?

Hmmm.  There was nothing personal about this thread (not even with Scott :).
I merely wanted to make the point that ogging a clueful person was 
difficult.  Since I don't poll people on their oggee profile, I only felt
qualified to speak for myself.

Now for the personal part:  Fuck you, Andy.  

)Netrek Anonymous meetings will resume again, in alt.games.netrek.addict.

I write it, but you read and reply.

)-- 
)fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
)[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]

Justin
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: This weeks xtrek history lesson
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:31:00 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Beorn Johnson writes
> My main argument against ogging is that it reduces the advantage of
> skill (which is obviously one of it's strategic advantages).  I am not
> terribly convinced that good ogging requires that much skill.

Huh?  Try ogging a good player...just try it.  You're too used to ogging  
berkeley twinks...:-) <-READ :-)

> Now, if the game were changed, perhaps dogfighting would be the most
> important tactic.  Or, with other changes, bombing would be the
> most important tactic.  Or even refitting (ala Sturgeon -- ick!) . . .

Yes...but we aren't about changing the game.  As a side note, bombing is  
the most important tactic.  Do you play in the INL?  If you do, you  
should've seen this.
 
> But perhaps balancing the game such that the ideal tactic depends on
> the conditions of the game would make the game more interesting.  I've
> had many ideas, but never enough desire to start a server.  Certainly
> if I did I would try to make ogging less desirable and dogfighting more
> desirable.  (But then the good dogfighters would discourage the oggers,
> and then the oggers would start flaming me on r.g.n . . .)
> 
Good, phaser locking dogfighters are bitches from hell to ogg anyway.  By  
learning dogfighting skills, it helps you in all facets of the game.   
Sitting around and dogfighting is purely useless...which is mostly what  
scott does.

> It seems that many vocal CMU players are keen to keep the game what
> they learned it to be, just as Scott D. and I (and I hope others) want 
> to keep the game more like what we learned it to be.  It is unfortunate 
> but perhaps inevitable that the debate has all been lost in irrelevant 
> flames.

Yes...but note, most of the flames came from hector, and he's not from  
CMU. The same applies to him, however, since he learned to play as SS  
botany bay on bronco.
 
> Change will occur regardless.  Does anyone who likes ogging want to
> encourage it further?  Return to instant uncloaking.  Or for more fun,
> read the recent thread on jousting.
> 	Beorn

Yes...change always occurrs.  Netrek tactics very much depend on what  
everyone else does.  Ogging is useful because people can be ogged.   
Eventually, ogging will likely become harder, thus less useful.  This has  
allready occurred in the past year.  Scout bombing was the invention of  
last year.  This year, anti-scout bombing has evolved to take its  
place....the game changes.

I don't like server changes intended change the game...no matter what they  
are.  

Rob
aka Spaceace!
From: paulsen@stipple.seas.upenn.edu (FreeKill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Nifty INL message stats program
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:19:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <weqAa7600iV2442VRB@andrew.cmu.edu> sward+@CMU.EDU (David Reeve Sward) writes:
>Where can I get that nifty INL message stats program that digests the
>message logs and spits out lots of useless stats about the players?

If you want truly useless stats, just keeping reading r.g.n.

Brian
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: jive@spanky.ssc.gov (Jim Ivey)
Subject: Re: Iron Man Netrekkers
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:56:30 GMT


In article <1992Oct9.180231.16247@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> thalerj@cps.msu.edu
(Jay C Thaler) goes on an ego hunt with:

>  to be able to do anything and to do it very well.  So, what I was
>  wondering is, who should I idolize?  Who out there is the best at

     Idolize Mucus.  Everyone else does.

>  everything?  SC bombing + ogging + planet scumming + basing + escorting

     Please... no one say Streaker:)

>  + defending, etc?  And if you say you are, I'll ogg you into oblivion. 

     Ogg me into oblivion anyway.. I need the kills.

>  No need for you to show off your egos.  So nominate someone else.

     Um.. Hm..  In all honesty, one of the first names that pops into my
mind is Mojo.  He doesn't get much recognition as a player (because he's
not from CMU:):) but he excels in all the above categories.  There are very
few others I've come to respect as excellent in every category (besides
myself, of course :):):):):):).  Red Shirt, Yea Boy!!!, and Spaceace! from
CMU.  Hector and Freekill from that funny school I don't remember the name
of :), but both have been off their game for a couple months now.  Any
other suggestions?

>  Just curious.
>  Crowbar, Iron Man Netrekker [?]

     Jim / Fill
From: exodus@IASTATE.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: Re: Who is the best?
Date: 15 Oct 92 00:09:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: IASTATE.1992Oct14.190922
Reply-To: exodus@IASTATE.EDU
Organization: Iowa State University




  Depends, with or without a blessed borg? Hehehe
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:41:28 -0400 
From: Jeff Rosenfeld <jdr+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Who is the best?

	Who is it?  Mojo?  ZZNewGuy? SpaceAce? Duck Dodgers? yeah boy!!!!!!!!?
EEK? Bav? Balton? Streaker?

	I hear a lot about really good players.  I just want people's
OPPINIONS.  Who is the best player out there, and why?   
	No flames please.

1010011010

PS

I bet Spaceace cracks up when he reads this.
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
From: von@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Von Worley)
Subject: Damn!  Aborted TP Scrimmage
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 08:01:59 GMT

To all of the people who were going to be involved in the Target 
Practice scrimmage last night, I want to apologize.  Due to 
technical difficulties, the server had to be killed and it did
not restart correctly.  Thus, people could not reconnect and
the scrimmage did not happen.

I am going to work on the server problem so I don't need to kill the
server next time.  It doesn't run quite correctly on these HP 
workstations.

Subsequently, we could not acquire enough players when we tried to
have the scrimmage on a different server.

Once again, thanks to everyone who quit out of their usual games to
play.  I will announce the next one here, most definitely.

Sandia
-- 
Steve Von Worley
von@cory.berkeley.edu
Computer Science Gradual Student
University of California at Berzerkly