HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:30:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      The Doctrines of Grace.

Ian, I think there is a slight misunderstanding.  When the words Doctrines
of Grace are used and so capitalized, they refer to the reform doctrines of
predestination and what is often called Calvinism.  That particular term
does not refer to the doctrine of grace, as such.

Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:39:09 EST
From:         BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security

cartnaj <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL> says:
 >You are avoiding the questions.  Are not "those" whosoever
 >believes?  So the ones who believe (whoever they may be) are
 >those predestined.  Or is there a limit stated on those
 >predestined?  If there is none, then cannot all be predestined,
 >based on their faith?

I think what Jesse was saying is that God commands us to spread
the Gospel.  I think I remember someone else on this list saying
that while the outcome has been determined, the means have not.
God wants to use us to carry out His perfect plan.  I believe
there is a limit.  Read Rom. 9.

Mike Benson
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:34:54 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Touching the Ark

Forwarded note from bit.listserv.christia.   --Madge
----------------------------------------------------
******   START OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******

>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (D. Keith Rice)
>Subject: Re: Touching the Ark
>Sender: usenet@mercury.unt.edu (UNT USENet Adminstrator)
>Organization: University of North Texas
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:08:42 GMT

In <CHRISTIA%92121623184496@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU> JEK@NIHCU.BITNET writes:

>Darren (kilroy, Dr N's S) writes about touching the Ark of the
>Covenant, saying that, according to the accounts, stealing the Ark,
>as the Philistines did, will not be punished severely, but touching
>it or looking into it with good motives will.
>The impression I get is that the Philistines were treated leniently
>because, as pagans, they couldn't be expected to know any better. Of
>the chosen people, more is expected (a point for us to keep in
>mind). Incidentally, although it looks as though Uzzah had reverent
>motives in touching the Ark, I see no indication that the men of
>Beth-Shemesh did.

Of course, you need to keep in mind that the ark was being transported
in a way that was not authorized by God.  The proper procedure is listed
in Exodus 25:14-15.  Also, it was to be carried by the sons of Kohath
(Numbers 3:30-31; 4:15; 7:9).

--
_____________________________
__-----____--___--__-----____   D. Keith Rice
__--__--___--__--___--__--___   University of North Texas
__--___--__--_--____--___--__   Department of Computer Science
__--___--__----_____--__--___   Denton, Texas, USA
__--___--__--_--____--_--____
__--__--___--__--___--__--___   drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu
__-----____--___--__--___--__            - or -
_____________________________   drice@cs.unt.edu


******   END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******
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Organization: Virginia Department of Health
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:46:55 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      test

Just a test. Having problems with Mailer 2.10....
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From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: christianity
Date: 12 Dec 92 14:59:30 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Long live gnosis of the Logos! :)
From: CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET (Chris Reed)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Pregnant
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:32:05 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Please forgive me, Christia, for sending a personal message over the net, but
thus far I've had troubles trying to post notes directly to Bernice...
Bernice, will you post me a note so I can reply to it?  I'd sure love to hear
from you.  THANKS!!

Christine Reed
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:13:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Christians presenting a front to the world.

Alison,  Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your message to
Christia, but I was sick last Thu and Fri.

I wasn't really serious about churches breaking up every 15 years, just
seemed to be a way to keep cultism from happening.  I do have a problem
with the concept that Christians need to present a united front to the
world.  We don't need to present any front at all.  Our "front" if you
will, should be nothing more than our following the great commission to
make disciples of Jesus.  How the world views us is, to me, highly
irrelevant.  I admit that United States right wing politics often makes me
wish there were another name for a follower of Jesus than Christian, but I
am too sensitive, I admit.

Our existance as Christians needs no justification to the world.  Their
opinion of us won't make or break any Christians.  Since God selects and
opens hearts to the gospel we preach and teach, we needn't be concerned how
worldlings view us, only how we relate to our Father.

Dan Graham
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:55:14 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: OPEN HEART SURGERY-CARL

Dear Carl,

We are going to touch and agree with you that eveything will turn out
alright for your Father-in-law.  I know that the prayers of a right-
eous man availeth much and we on Christia know and believe that all
is well for your Father-in-law and your friend also.

Dear Heavenly Father,
You know this situation Father and we are asking You to heal this loved
one and friend in Jesus Name from the top of their heads to the soles
of their feet.  Give the surgeons wisdom and let their recovery be a
speedy one and let them have a complete healing.  We thank You Father
for hearing our prayers and we have the confidence in You and in Your
Word that by the stripes that Jesus bore on the cross, that they are
healed.  We thank You and Praise You in advance for their healing.  In
Jesus mighty Name.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ

Shelby--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:52:11 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: INTEREST GROUP

> Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:47:03 -0600
> From: jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
> Subject:      INTEREST GROUP
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
>
> Does anyone out there know how many of us are currently subscribing to
> CHRISTIA?

Okay everyone, count off!

One,...    :-)
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:31:49 EST
From:         Servant of the Lord <randolph@BIGBOY.EPRI.COM>
Subject: re: civil rights? why?

I must admit, when I went through the public schools, I wasn't aware too much
of my teachers' personal lives.  In general, if a teacher is gay, he/she
probably would not make a point of trying to validate his lifestyle to classes
as a whole.  However, any teacher, no matter what subject he teaches, is in
a position of authority and influence over students.  All teachers probably
face situations, at one time or another, where they must act as a counselor
to individual students.  If, in such a situation, a gay teacher has to make
a decision about how to counsel a student, he is probably going to defend and
try to validate and justify his lifestyle.  I do not find this acceptable.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 12:55:00 EST
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Gay Civil Rights? Why?

   The homosexual community does not need "special rights" because they are
not discriminated against.  First, homosexuals are not a "minority", a
group is a "minority" based on race.  Second, civil rights are to ensure that
minorities have equal employment and housing opportunities as the rest of the
society.  Third, the homosexuals far exceed the nation as a whole in
categories such as: income, education, and employment.
    The average income for homosexuals is $50-55K, the national average is
far less at about $30-35K.  A higher percentage of homosexuals have a college
education as opposed to the rest of the nation, and homosexuals have a higher
percentage of professional/managerial jobs than the national average.
Currently, in Colorado and many other states, homosexuals cannot be
discriminated against in housing.  Clearly, the homosexuals fare far better
than the average citizen and much better than traditional minorities.  The
only thing that civil rights would do for homosexuals is to increase their
advantage over other citizens, citizens that are not doing as well as the
homosexuals.
   In Colorado the public voted to not grant homosexuals special protection
because of sexual orientation.  No constitutional rights are being taken
away from the homosexuals.  A group that is not suffering economically, or
in employment, or education does not need special protection.

Carl---+
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:49:33 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Civil rights

>   What I cannot accept is the militant insistence that homo-
>sexual lifestyles be given the same respect and legitimacy as normal
>heterosexual marriages and familial relationships.

All I can say is a resounding "Amen"!!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 07:03:34 -0700
From:         cartnaj <cartnaj@EAGLE.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject:      RE: Eternal Security

> >
> >Then why have missionaries?  If we are predestined to eternal life,  then
the
> >witnessing has no effect on our salvation.  And when are we cleansed of our
> >sins? (Notice that WE are cleansed and not a tallysheet of God's and the
sins
> >are removed from US).  Also where does it save salvation is eternal.  It
does
> >say eternal life is the gift.
> >Joe ; God predestined the means as well as the ends.  Besides, we are
> instructed to SPREAD the Gospel.  God gives the orders ... we are to obey
> them.  God rules.   --Jesse--
>
Jesse,

You are avoiding the questions.  Are not "those" whosoever believes?  So the
ones who believe (whoever they may be) are those predestined.  Or is there a
limit stated on those predestined?  If there is none, then cannot all be
predestined, based on their faith?

In Christ,

                                                Joe C.
                                                cartnaj@eagle.safb.af.mil
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:56:05 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 12/17

MAN: "He puts even more blame on people who live in clay houses.  The
foundations of these houses are made of dust.  They can be crushed more easily
than a moth.  Between dawn and sunset they are broken to pieces.  They are not
noticed.  They die and are gone forever" (Job 4:20).

GOD: "But, God, can you really live here on the earth?  Even the sky and the
highest place in heaven cannot contain you.  Certainly this house which I have
built cannot contain you either" (1 Kings 8:27).

"God gave us new life with Christ.  You have been saved by God's grace.  And he
raised us up with Christ and gave us a seat with him in the heavens" (Ephesians
2:5,6).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:30:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Children and Parents

Hi all

      The subject is perhaps not as explicit as it might be, but I'd like to
relate a potnetially SFL (scarred-for-life) experience yesterday. Number 1
son is currentlyu on anti-biotics for an ear infection. We'd run out Sunday
morning and had decided to pick up his next course after church. Real good
except in the normal helter-skelter of the "Get me to the church on time"
bedlam that equates to Sunday mornings at our place, we forgot to grab the
prescription.

      So after church, dad offers to take the kids to their choice of takeaway
while mum does the 50 minute round trip home to pick up the prescription and
then get it made at the day-night chemist in town (yes we live a bit out of
town...)

       The kids vote for Hungry Jack's (spelt Burger King for you people in
North America), and after eating the lunch the kids went out (under dad's
somewhat bored & impatient scrutiny) to play on the swings. There is a girl
there (her sex is immaterial to the discussion) who is doing all sorts of
things there that would give me a heart attack if my kids did them - climbing
through the caged bits to crawl on the small roof area about 25 feet up.

       Kyle plays happily and noisily on the swings with Adam, usually going
around the other child who was making a pest of herself by trying to stop them
going down the slide/up the ladder etc. Kyle (for those new to the group) has a
number of developmental delays which have been the catalyst for much prayer
and heartache on his parents and others behalf. Kyle is role-playing (I guess)
as if he was in Scooby-Doo, and talking half in his babble and half in lines
from the show.

       All of a sudden, the girl asks Adam "Is your brother weird?". Adam seems
to ignore that, or maybe his mild deafness at the moment helped. Then "Does it
run in your family?". Bits of me want to shout "Hey you rotten little kid! I'm
in the top percentile and his mum's in the top 6 percentile and we don't give a
darn (perhaps) about that anyway! He's a great little kid and obviously
possessed of more charm and sensitivity than you'll ever have!".

       Reality strikes. The girl is no more than 8 years old. Adam, Kyle, Lyn
and I are going to have to deal with this sort of thing for a long time yet. I
coped reasonably well with it (I think) knowing that God has a plan for Kyle,
regardless of what progress he makes ofver the coming years. My mistake was
relating this incident to Lyn who really got upset late last night and this
morning about it.

       Please help me support and uplift my wife in prayer. We cope most days
with the situation and we love Kyle dearly. However, yesterday was a bit much
for Lyn.

Thank you for your prayers and support

Ken Diefenbach
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:29:19 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: I'M BACK ON CHRISTIA-SHELBY

Dear Shelby;
WELCOME BACK!
Things just aren't the same without you around! You have been sorely
missed! We're still praying for Gene. You provide some very mature and
and wise leadership for this list...Thanks.....In Christ.....Mark
P.S. Beautiful poem!
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:14:12 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: St. Luke

On Dec 17,  2:39pm, noao!TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET wrote:
} Subject: St Luke
}    I just saw a request on our department list asking if anyone knew
} the cause for which St. Luke is the patron saint. Does anyone out
} there have the answer?
}                                             Claude
}-- End of excerpt from noao!TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET

I would assume it's doctors though I don't have my references handy.



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:04:00 EST
From:         BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      Re: INTEREST GROUP

>Does anyone out there know how many of us are currently
>subscribing to CHRISTIA?

Just send a REVIEW CHRISTIA to the listserv to get a list of
current members who are not "concealed" by choice.

Mike Benson
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:13:12 +0000
From:         spk@ABERYSTWYTH.AC.UK
Subject:      New Job

I have just heard that I have been succesful in an application for
a new post starting in the new year. This is going to mean that
I will very likely have to leave CHRISTIA temporarily at least as
I will have no e-mail access at least until I set up the mail system
there.

I'll save my "so long and thanks" message for when I unsubscribe, but
I thought I'd let you all know my good (and bad) news.

All the best,
  Stephen.
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:50:45 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Colorado Vote-4

Maks,

   Thanks for the time and effort you put into these informative notes.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:47:57 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Christmas sharing

Every Christmas season (actually starting around Thanksgiving), I go around
my neighborhood and department at work asking for blankets & warm clothing
for the homeless.  This year has been very good!!  I've already made eight
trips downtown with carloads full of coats and blankets, and it's not even
Christmas yet!  My own department is adopting 15 families at a shelter here
in Phoenix (not counting the extra help that we do for those on the street).

I'm usually allow to take off work whenever I have enough donations to make
a trip, and I always try to ask people at work who haven't made the trip to
accompany me.  We either buy or bake cookies and bring gallons of milk along
to pass out among the street people while the clothing is being distributed.
The neat thing about this is that many people who wouldn't think about going
down to the "bad" section of Phoenix find out how easy and helpful it is to
actually do something like this.  Many times I've noticed a real change in
attitude in those who make these trips, and then when the next year rolls
around they end up being the first ones to bring in donations.  Some of my
co-workers even have brought their children to work so they can experience
the joy of giving to those in need.

I have more to say on this topic but I'm out of time right now.

Madge McBurney
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:00:22 CST
From:         "jesse i. carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: jesse replies on Gospel

Dear all on Christia ;

Pardon my mistaken spelling regarding the Hebrews 5 quotation.
Christ was obviously MADE perfect through suffering ... NOT 'mad' perfect,
as I erroneously typed.

Regrets.


Jesse Carnes
From: Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK (CAROL L)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Carol L - going Quiet over Christmas
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:19:00 GMT
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I shall get off this list over Christmas - we shut the machines
down and test our recovery procedures
So rather than bounce mail, I shall not be about.

Have a blessed Christmas.

Carol L

PS
What are the chances that we will have finished the 6 weekly round
of Homosexuality-is-not-to-be-tolerated by the time I get back.  We
do seem to be going around in circles again.

See you in the new year

Carol A Long Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:43:39 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT IF THEY LEAVE?
              GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL

God bless you Dan Graham.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:50:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Re: side thought on forgiveness = salvation.

Lonnie, why do you think that Heb. 4:12 is referring to the Bible?  The
Bible never declares itself to be the Word of God, only Jesus is the Word
of God.  I would fully agree that the Scruptures are alive and powerful,
but I would deduce that from other places, not Heb 4:12.

Now, on this forgiveness = salvation thing, did I miss something?  Has
somebody said they are exact synonyms?  Paul makes it very clear, as I
pointed out in a previous message, that they are functional equivelants,
that is enough, isn't it?

Dan Graham
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