HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Liverpool Oratorio - McCartney & Davis
Date: 21 Jul 92 11:14:23 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle) writes:

>In article <1992Jul18.192101.18770@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>, ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts) writes:

>> Maybe the problem is that you're insisting on an ostensive definition of
>> 'oratorio', whereas they've innocently used a purely verbal one, maybe just
>> as a working title at first. 

>Huh?  What can you mean by "a purely verbal" definition?

A verbal definition is a definition in terms of other words such as you might
find in a dictionary. A purely verbal definition is one which is defined
purely in terms of other words (such as one might find in a dictionary) and
not acquired ostensively. The Liverpool Oratorio comes within most verbal
definitions of Oratorio, whilst being very different from what people expect.

>> What would you call it?

>Objection, your honor:  Asked and answered.  He has
>already said that he would call it "garbage".

Ha, ha - yes, very good.

>> Well what would you expect them to do if they considered it unworthy of
>> performance (which they obviously didn't)? Enroll Paul McCartney on a
>> course of lessons in musical notation?

>Given the financial situation that many orchestras find
>themselves in lately, I would expect them to grit their
>collective teeth and play it anyway.  

I meant McCartney and Davis.

Martin Watts.
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Minimalists/Andriessen
Date: 22 Jul 1992 14:03:14 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

In article <music.711809223@batman> music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:

>>Frederic Rzewski

>Hmmm... I know several of his works and never considered any of them
>to be minimal. His most famous work, The People United, is about as
>far from 'minimal' as you can get, exploring a vast arrays of styles
>from baroque to serial. Even "Winnsboro Cotton Mill Blues", with it's
>incessant pounding full forearm tone clusters is more impressionistic
>than minimal. Anyone know a minimal or pseudo-minimal work by Rzewski???

Yes, mainly his works from the 60's - notably Coming Together and Attica.
Though he has departed from this style, I think that his use of tonality,
repetition, and, yes, even the incessantness of "Winnsboro" owes a lot to
his minimalist influences.

Bill Alves
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Complete Set of LvB Piano Sonatas
From: hanly@brandonu.ca
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:41:08 CST
Distribution: rec
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1992Jul21.234854.22956@cco.caltech.edu>, jcc@cco.caltech.edu (Julian C. Chen) writes:
> Hello,
> 
> For perhaps the classic set of Beethoven piano sonatas, complete, get the
> mid-price release of Artur Schnabel. He's the person who made the first
> recording of the complete sonatas, and it is still one of the best, if not
> the best one. Be prepared for some weirdness, however, as you will notice
> some unusual tempos, wrong notes, as well as rather dated sound. However,
> for musical purposes, he is unexcelled.
> Also, I believe that the Kempff recordings are pretty good, as are Gilel's
> recordings of about 2/3 of the complete sonatas.
> I'm wondering whether anybody has any opinions on the Yves Nat set or the
> Ashkenazy, Barenboim, and Pollini interpretations?
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> Julian Chen
> Caltech

There is also a complete set of the sonatas recorded by Claudio Arrau on
lp's but I don't know whether they have been released on CD. I found
them quite enjoyable but have not really compared them with other versions.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jpw@polard.zso.dec.com (joe white)
Subject: Re: Barber symphony #2
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:02:54 GMT


barber only wrote 2 symphonies, but the second- to which you refer-
was withdrawn by the composer (in the early '60s?). the first is a
symphony 'in one movement' and is marvellous.

	j
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: minimalism
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:33:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <BruKr7.9Mq@quake.sylmar.ca.us> 
brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
            ^^^^^^
What happened to Norton?  Enquiring minds want to know.

>In article <1992Jul23.003230.16202@slc.com> 
marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:
>>Brian K. Yoder (brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us) writes:

>>> I'm glad to hear that "minimalism" is not your "favorite" genre, but how 
>>> can you justify having any desire to listen to it?

>>Same way some folk can justify having a desire to listen to Mozart.

>Ah, then you see no important difference between a Mozart symphony and
>some rattling pots and pans?  

Where do the pots and pans come in suddenly? We were talking about
Minimalist composers, weren't we? 

Now, let me congratulate you.  This must be your biggest non-sequitur
yet.  Just because one may justify the desire to listen to piece A, and
likewise can justify the desire to listen to piece B, and use the same
process of justification, does this mean that there is no important
difference between the two pieces?  

The mind reels.

>Would you also apply the same reasoning to
>Other kinds of sounds like those produced by 
>the DJ on the radio? Does it matter
>whether he's speaking english?  Whether he's just babbling in no particular
>language?  Or just sitting quietly by the microphone?  What do you think is
>the difference?

Depends on what *I* wish to *do* with these sounds.  If I want the DJ to
tell me what time it is, I would like it to be in a language I
understand.  If I wish to hear a classical symphony, then talk in
English is just as obtrusive as talk in Spanish, and so is rock and
roll, or even a Renaissance motet.

Besides, what do you mean by "the same reasoning"?  I don't recall ANY
path of reasoning having been chosen for discussion, only the fact that
one CAN justify one's tastes in music, but doesn't need to.


You know, for someone who complains that others refuse to make important
distinctions, you give no evidence of being able to reason carefully
enough to MAKE distinctions.  

Or to keep your line length down in the low 70's.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: 20th c. "teaching pieces" for piano
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:25:10 GMT

Do you have access to a music library that has the US (defunct)
periodical "Musical Newsletter"?  This was a quarterly that lasted for 7
years in the 1970s, and had some excellent articles.  The one I am
thinking of was "Towards a 20th-Century Musical Literacy" or some such
title, and I believe the author was Robert P. Morgan.  It was in one of
the first issues -- perhaps the very first.  He examined the very
question you are asking about:  piano works by "good" twentieth-century
composers that are suitable for beginning or moderate piano students.  I
hope you can find it.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mheim@beach.csulb.edu (Michael Heim)
Subject: Re: Wagner's Ring: audio/video recordings
Keywords: Ring
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:46:59 GMT

In article <35961@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> mu299af@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (G. Y.) writes:
>I have read many very interesting postings about ring on the net.  I
>wonder beside Solti, Bohm, Furtwangler's audio recordings which I
>have collected, any other recommandations?  I also have Boulez video
>recording of Ring and seen some part of Levine's, any comments and
>suggestions between these two?  How about any other Video recordings
>of Ring?
>
>Gary
>

I very much like Haitink's Ring after having listened to those you
mentioned.  What I like most about his version is the clarity with
which you can hear the notes.  You can always hear new things because
the lush sound never overwhelms or gets muddy.  

Mike Heim

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,news.answers
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Sylvia McNair (was Re: IDOMENEO and CLEMENZA DI TITO...)
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:50:58 GMT

In article <CB.92Jul16115342@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>....McNair.  I've had a crush on her since I
>saw her sing in the Mozart Requiem.  Perhaps I'm easily swayed, but I
>thought it was the best singing I'd ever heard.  I haven't seen much
>other comment about her, nor many recordings.  Has anyone else taken
>note of her?

She was just coming into her own at Indiana U as I was leaving in 1980.
I had seen her do Massenet's Manon (nothing special) and soprano I in
the Mozart C Minor Mass for someone's conducting recital (pretty
arresting).  The year after I left she had a big success there as
Constanze in Abduction from the Seraglio, directed by Andrew Porter.
Porter became quite a promoter of her career after that.

She sang several times at the Opera Theater of St. Louis, a famous first
stop for young talent on the rise, and did Handel's Morgana (in Alcina)
and Berlioz's Hero (in B & B) there.  She's recorded Beethoven's Missa
Solemnis with Shaw (Telarc), and that Mozart mass with Gardiner.
Gardiner seems to have taken quite a liking to her (as has Shaw), and
she turns up on a number of their recordings.  I believe she's also
recorded Hero in a Beatrice et Benedict conducted by John Nelson, out in
Europe but not as far as I know the US.  She will also sing the soprano
lead in a Gilbert and Sullivan recording!  Neville Marriner and the
Academy are recording The Yeomen of the Guard for Philips, and she is
Elsie, to Thomas Allen's Jack Point.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank)
Subject: Re: Male choral music
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:11:25 GMT

While we're on the subject, there's a real interesting disc on the 
Finlandia label of Sibelius' "Mieskuorolaulut" ("Songs for Male Choir")--
nice listening (though not very cheerful), and worlds different from his
orchestral writing.
--jason

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: Beethoven's violin concerto
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:35:28 GMT

In article <33826@cbmvax.commodore.com> givler@bermuda (Greg Givler) writes:
>>
>>>Presently I do not own a copy of this concerto, but it is 
>>>on my list of things to buy.
>>Bummer.  I've got one.  What are you waiting for?
>
>Well, the disc that I saw had just the concerto. CD's hold over 
>60 minutes of music and I don't like paying $17.00 for 40.  
>

Who pays $17 per disc?? You're getting ripped off.
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Need name of guitar composer/performer
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:17:31 GMT
Organization: pubs


I heard something good by (I think) two guitarists.  One of them was
also the composer of the pieces I heard.  First name is Sergio.  Second
and third names, in phonetic form, are something like o-dair ah-sah.
Any information on him would be appreciated.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Recommendation for Requiem music is needed.
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:27:48 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU

In article <1992Jul20.165311.8816@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>
>... Cardoso, Dvorak, Kokkonen, Artiomov, Lassus ...

... and Donizetti.

-Margaret
From: s892024@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. Muirden [GA])
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Good version of 'The planets' by Holst?
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:24:13 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

thurlow@convex.com (Robert Thurlow) writes:

>I have the Deutsche Grammophon Von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic recording
>from 1981, and the sound and performance are magnificent.  (DG 400 028-2).

Yes!! this is the one I have on LP - it's fantastic!! I play it over the
awful CD version I have... (I know,I should have hunted that down on CD
I guess... but the price tag got me!)

>The latest Penguin guide recommends others above it: Dutoit/Montreal (Decca)
>and Hilary Davan Wetton/LPO (Collins) are well thought-of.

>Rob T
>--
>Rob Thurlow, thurlow@convex.com
>Heaven knows / No frontiers
>And I've seen heaven in your eyes			- Jimmy McCarthy

-richard

-- 
Richard Muirden,                       | Also final year Computer Science
Systems Administrator (unpaid - gasp!) | Student, RMIT. Shostakovich Freak!!
mail: s892024@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU     - ram@lionet.wesley.OZ.AU
     My opinions are my own, not even Spock could work them out!!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hclase@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Howard Clase)
Subject: Re: Borodin (was: Dvorak)
Keywords: Dvorak
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:26:36 GMT

	Borodin could never have been Dvorak, he must have been born much
earlier :-)

	Howard Clase


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: djd33237@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Denny d'Alelio )
Subject: Re: Music from Kubrick's "Barry Lyndon"
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:35:15 GMT

This isn't a response to your question. However your post did remind me of 
something.

In Kubrick's "Clockwork Orange", there is a scene that takes place in a
record store.  One of the records on the shelf is the soundtrack to 
"2001 a Space Odessy".  I don't think many people notice this.  It kind
of reminds me of Hitchcock cameos.


-Denny




Denny d'Alelio
U. of Illinois
Sinfonian!
d-d'alelio
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: Beethoven Opus & Woo
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:09:16 GMT

carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>
>The opus numbers go up to op. 138 (the first Leonore overture).

Clarification: by "first Leonore overture", I mean the so-called
Leonore Overture No. 1.  The order of composition was No. 2, No. 3,
No. 1, Fidelio overture.  No. 1 was apparently written in 1807 for a
projected performance of LEONORE in Prague which never came off, and
the overture only became known in an auction of Beethoven's effects
after his death, hence the late opus number.  It was first performed
in 1828.  The Fidelio overture was composed in 1814 for the revival.
From: rodean@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bruce Rodean)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:15:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Recommendation for Requiem music is needed.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Ft. Collins, CO.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

One Requiem I haven't seen mentioned yet is by Eduard Tubin.  It is
called "Requiem for Fallen Soldiers."  I am not particularly enthralled
with it, but the CD (on BIS with Neeme Jarvi conducting) was being sold
cheap at a place going out of business.  It also has his 10th Symphony,
which is much more likable.

Bruce Rodean
rodean@fc.hp.com
From: vanloon@cwi.nl (M. van Loon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Is it Ludwig van, Van, von or Von Beethoven?
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:22:57 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Jul31.130917.1643@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>Ludwig van Beethoven.  I think the name is of Dutch origin and means
>"of the beet field"; Beethoven's ancestors were from an area in what
                      ^^^^^^^^^
After just pointing out that his name is Van Beethoven, you omit "Van".
As I am Dutch, I should now what 'beet' means. I have however no idea.
I think it's archaic. However, 'hoven' doesn't mean field exactly. It's
better to translate it with gardens (yes, it's the plural of 'hof').

Another remark: if the name Van Beethoven is used - without Ludwig, you
should write 'Van' with a capital. This is a spelling rule in Dutch as
well as in German.

Maarten van Loon
        ^^^
	You see no capital here!


-- 
 Maarten van Loon               The easiest answers are the most        
 CWI, P.O.Box 4079              difficult to find                       
 1009 AB Amsterdam              ------------------------------------                                 
 email: vanloon@cwi.nl          Not knowing Bach = not really living    
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: minimalism
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:53:20 GMT

Brian K. Yoder (brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us) writes:

> Marc San Soucie writes:

> > I see no difference between the desire to listen to a Mozart symphony and 
> > the desire to listen to the rattling of pots and pans.

> Well, that's pretty direct isn't it?  Tell me, do you have a CD collection?
> Does it contain more than one disc?  If so, would you mind if I replaced it with
> one full of rattling pots and pans?  Why or why not?

> This is simply absurd, and I don't even believe that you believe it.

Are you being deliberately dense for the purposes of debate? I have not
stated anywhere that there is no difference between a Mozart symphony and
the rattling of pots and pans. There is a substantial difference. 

There is also a qualitative difference between the desire to listen to one 
and the desire to listen to the other. But the quality of the difference 
lies in the realm of preference, which is personal and subjective, and 
which is based on my physical, intellectual, emotional, and cultural 
interaction with the world around me.

However, there is no quantitive or scalable difference between the desire
to listen to one and the desire to listen to the other. Desire, preference,
choice are personal things. If I enjoying listening to one piece of music,
and you enjoy listening to another, there is no basis in any known frame of
moral, legal, or cultural reference by which one can decide that I am right
and you are wrong, or vice versa. You like what you like, I like what I
like. It really is very very simple.

I may enjoy one or another piece of music more than others, and so I would
probably be upset if all my tunes were replaced with tunes of a single
style, but there are tunes that I love to listen to that owe nothing to the
grand old European Classical music tradition. Some of them don't even have 
melodies! Eek!

I'm sorry if my preferences violate your sense of cultural reference. 
You'll just have to learn to live with it.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com


P.S. Don't knock pot and pan rattling overmuch - it just depends on who's
     doing the rattling and how they're being rattled!
From: dmnhieu@euclid (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: P.D.Q. Bach inquiry
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:52:40 GMT
Reply-To: dmnhieu@euclid (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Organization: Purdue University

Hi:  

If anyone of you who has the lyric to the following pieces (of PDQ Bach)
or if you know where to find a printed copy, can you send me information?
I know that you can figure it out by listening, the diction is quite clear.
However, since my mother tongue is not English, I have difficulties of
figuring out certain words.

I am looking the following:
   Portrait of PDQ Bach
      Missa Hilarious
         Yriekay
         Gloria
         Credo
         Sanctus
         Angus Dei

   Oedepus Tex & Other Choral calamities
       Oedipus Tex (all pieces)
       Classical Rap
       Knock Knock
       Birthday Ode to big daddy Bach.

Thanks
From: fernande@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (Jose Roberto Fernandez)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Good version of 'The planets' by Holst?
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:37:51 GMT
Reply-To: fernande@cps.msu.edu.cps.msu.edu (Jose Roberto Fernandez)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: fernande@atlantic.cps.msu.edu

In article <thurlow.711815143@convex.convex.com> thurlow@convex.com (Robert Thurlow) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>The latest Penguin guide recommends others above it: Dutoit/Montreal (Decca)
>and Hilary Davan Wetton/LPO (Collins) are well thought-of.

I've heard the two above and would recommend Dutoit's above Wetton's 
because the latter lacks the organ.
-- 
Jose Roberto Fernandez
fernande@cps.msu.edu
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Liverpool Oratorio - McCartney & Davis
Date: 22 Jul 92 07:16:07 GMT
	<1992Jul18.192101.18770@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
	<SLAGLE.92Jul20141420@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>
	<1992Jul21.111423.5246@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Sunnyvale, Ca.
In-reply-to: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk's message of 21 Jul 92 11:14:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.111423.5246@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>, ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts) writes:

> A verbal definition is a definition in terms of other words such as you might
> find in a dictionary. A purely verbal definition is one which is defined
> purely in terms of other words (such as one might find in a dictionary) and
> not acquired ostensively. The Liverpool Oratorio comes within most verbal
> definitions of Oratorio, whilst being very different from what people expect.

Ah, do you mean then that they might have called it an 
oratorio without reference to the historical examples
of that genre?  I was perhaps thrown by your unfamiliar 
usage of "ostensive".  Given Davis's background, doesn't 
that seem unlikely though?  It seems to me that at least
one of the two of them would have known quite well what
sort of expectations would be raised by such a name.  And
in what sense, from a purely verbal point of view, is the
Liverpool lad's story to be considered sacred?

>>> Well what would you expect them to do if they considered it unworthy of
>>> performance (which they obviously didn't)? Enroll Paul McCartney on a
>>> course of lessons in musical notation?

>>Given the financial situation that many orchestras find
>>themselves in lately, I would expect them to grit their
>>collective teeth and play it anyway.  

> I meant McCartney and Davis.

Ah, again.  I misunderstood.  But given his background, we might
not expect McCartney to be able to make an informed judgement on
the worthiness of the piece in the "classical" arena to which he
has come only lately.  And we can make at least a plausible case
that Davis might have other motives, unrelated to the quality,
for seeing the work produced.  His is a no-lose situation.  If
the piece is bad, then he was just the arranger.  But if it's
good, then he can share in the glory.  But either way, he
becomes an instant international celebrity.  So, even if it is
utter dreck, what path of reasoning leads them to NOT produce it?
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA