HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Target materials for armor piercing ammunition?
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:54 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods) writes:

#One idea - Richard Davis (founder of Second Chance) offers a service
#to the propane distributors in Michigan.  The bottles have a finite
#(D.O.T. regs et al) life and must be disposed of after having had holes
#drilled in them to prevent them from being used for compressed gas
#storage thereafter.  Davis hauls them out to his back range where
#the bottles become targets for all kinds of armor piercing ammo.

Speaking as an ex propane dealer, I can tell you that shooting these
old tanks is vastly much more fun if you first fill 'em one last time 
for old time's sake before shooting.  Just set 'em downrange, build a 
LARGE fire nearby, one that can't be blown out by massive blasts of
gas, get back a couple hundred yards and fire away.  Tangental hits with
soft bullets (so only one hole is made) are best 'cuz the cylinder 
spirals up in the air like a big firework trailing a huge stream of
fire.  

Minor caution:  If you don't have an ignition source very close to
the cylinder, you have the makings of an FAE on your hands.  20 lbs of
propane detonating will make you wish you had a couple hundred more yards
between you and it.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.


[MODERATOR:  Don't try this at home, kids....]
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:38 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <9209081533.AA07957@bigguy.eng.ufl.edu> glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto) writes:
#So, is it possible to order just the bullets from Winchester, so that 
#one could hand load these to respectable velocities?

?  The .40S&W Black Talon factory load is just about ideal against a
normally clothed human, and I assume the other calibers are similarly
selected, since after all optimum suitability for the purpose is the
whole marketing point.  In street shootings with standard .40S&W JHP,
in general they've been reported as penetrating slightly (but not much)
more than optimum, and with greater expansion Black Talon should
penetrate a bit less than that, i.e. just about right.  Cranking up the
velocity would probably be counterproductive.  (I doubt you can buy the
SXT bullets separately anyway.)
From: mvjh3@mvgpk.att.com (James M Hajjar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Info. on Ithica SKB500 O/U Shotgun
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I would like to get some info. on my Ithica SKB-500 over/under shotgun.  I 
purchased it used in 1985 for $375.  What is this gun currently worth??  I 
checked in Gun Digest, but could not find it anywhere.  I did find SKB 
O/U guns, but are these made by Ithica (if not, who?).  The new SKBs are 
extremely expensive ($900 - $1100).  I use the gun for waterfowl hunting, 
so I am forced to shoot steel shot (YUK!).  I have heard that shooting steel
will "blow" the choke on the gun eventually, so I am faced with two choices.

1) Have screw-in chokes fitted to the gun (I got a quote for $170 w/4 chokes)

2) Trade-in the SKB for a new automatic "duck gun" (probably a REM 1187)

Any ideas or help will be greatly appreciated - please post or email.
From: alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:36 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:
#
#That is a good question; where do you put a 
#warning shot if you want to fire one?  Figure 
#that you have to keep your eye on the perp all
#of the time, and you want to have the gun in 
#some position where you can get it back on the 
#perp quickly...  Yeah, I know, put the warning 
#shot into the perp!  Somehow this doesnt seem 
#like the right answer, at least not in a court
#of law.

I have been advised by two people who ought to know (including the
owner & chief instructor of an excellent local firearms training
school) that civilians should NEVER fire warning shots.

The logic is simple.  Civilians are only justified in firing a weapon
if they (or another person in their presense) are in IMMEDIATE risk of
serious bodily harm, such that the only way to prevent such harm is to
shoot the assailant.  If these conditions do not exist, YOU ARE NOT
JUSTIFIED IN FIRING AT ALL.  Even a warning shot.

What's the harm of firing a warning shot?  Well...

 1. It's illegal.  An overzealous prosecutor will nail you for anything
    from reckless endangerment to discharging a firearm within city
    limits.

 2. If you hit the perpetrator (or a bystander) while firing a warning
    shot, you will go to prison.  Why?  Because the situation did not
    justify a lethal response on your part.

 3. The perpetrator (or his estate) will be able to claim in court that
    YOU escalated the conflict to the level of lethal force.  This gives
    them a lot of advantages, because they can now claim that their
    subsequent actions (returning fire, for example) were attempts at
    justifiable self-defense against YOUR ATTACK.

 4. Witnesses may report that you fired first, before the other person
    attacked or harmed you.  You will appear to be the aggressor.

In short: if you have enough time to fire a warning shot, you are not
legally justified in shooting at all.

DISCLAIMER: This info is based on the laws of Washington State, and
            is presented second-hand for informational purposes only.
            I am not qualified to give legal advice; consult a lawyer
            in your state.

                               -- Alane --
   /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
  /   NOBODY shares my opinions,    |    "I am a jelly doughnut"      \
 /    especially not my employer    |    -- President John F Kennedy   \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifled Shotgun Chokes
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:22:37 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9209111459.AA22290@beta.lanl.gov> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
#
#First is that I don't believe it is possible to get patterns much
#bigger than your fist at ranges one would normally encounter within
#one's house.  So I personally don't see any advantage to going to
#bigger shot because even the smaller shot is so concentrated as to
#produce penetration (no, I haven't tried it but that's my belief--but
#see below).

I haven't found this to be true. Even at short range where the pattern
is fist sized or smaller, the small shot just don't penetrate well.
Firing into a clay bank, not the ideal ballistic gelatin, I find that
1 oz number 8 loads penetrate less than an inch. The actual effect is
to blow an about six inch chunk of dirt loose from the bank less than
an inch thick, a surface wound. 00 buck penetrates the same bank more 
than 6 inches. You have to dig them out. These tests were conducted at 
6 feet from the muzzle. Effects on flesh may vary.

A shot column, even one still in the wad, disperses quickly on impact.
Each pellet goes it's own way. It doesn't act like a larger projectile.

Gary
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 6 Sep 92 01:58:41 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  Winchester describes this in an Ammunition 1992 New Products
brochure.  They say:

"The performance of Winchester's new Black Talon Bullet is as
revolutionary as its appearance.  The new Supremem Expansion Talon
(SXTtm) bullet design has resulted in expansion and penetration
characteristics that have never before been achieved.
"The lead core of the bullet is locked into place with a reverse tapered
jacket.  This design allows the bullet to penetrate and expand achieving
virtually 100% weight retention wile producing a unique larger-diameter
upset.  All loads in this line meet rigorous law enforcements
requirements for expansion and optimum penetration.
"The black-jacketed Winchester patented SXT bullet loaded into a
nickel-plated shell case is packaged in the distinctive Supreme black
box.  The Deep Penetrator logo (DP) on each box designates that these
loads have been designed by Winchester engineers for optimum penetration
performance."

  Then they give specs for 4 cartridges - I assume that these are the
only ones the have (so far.)  Here are some of them:

Cal.  bull wt  MV  50 yds  ME  50 yds  Barrel Lgth
9mm     147   990   945   320   292       4"
40S&W   180   990   938   392   352       4"
10mm    200   990   941   435   394       5"
45ACP   230   850   814   369   338       5"

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bowling Pin Loads
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:28:00 GMT
Organization: AT&T

The following Bowling Pin load recommendations are made
with the noted assumptions:
(1)  The pins are positioned 3 feet from the back of the table
     and you must drive them off the table to count them.
(2)  To minimize "bounceback" you want to load to 850 f/s or more.
     (less than 800 f/s creates a real bounceback hazard.)

Weight in grains  Velocity range  Power factor  Muzzle energy

      200          1100 - 1200      220 - 240     537 - 639
      210          1020 - 1120      214 - 235     484 - 584
      220           950 - 1060      209 - 233     440 - 548
      230           900 - 1010      207 - 232     413 - 520
      240           870 -  980      209 - 235     403 - 511
      250           850 -  960      213 - 240     400 - 511
      260           850 -  940      221 - 244     417 - 509
      270           850 -  930      230 - 251     433 - 518
      280           850 -  920      238 - 258     449 - 525
      290           850 -  910      247 - 264     465 - 532
      300           850 -  900      255 - 270     481 - 539
      310           850 -  890      264 - 276     497 - 544
      320           850 -  880      272 - 282     513 - 549

If you are shooting on steel tables deduct 5% from the velocity &
power factor requirements.  (smoother, easier for pins to roll off)

Bullets less than 200 grains regardless of velocity tend to leave
too much "dead wood" on the table.  Bullets in the 230 - 260 range
tend to be about the optimum weight at the proper speed.  Most
"main event" pin shooters will use bullets in this range with a power
factor of 205 or more (excluding events like 9mm etc.)

As usual, your mileage may vary.

BDW
From: NJessup@amc.edu.au (Nigel Jessup)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Which multi-stage to buy?
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:25 GMT
Organization: Australian Maritime College

Greetings & salutations

      I'm considering the purchase of a multi-stage loader for metalic
cartriges. The primary function will be to load various pistol calibers
for myself & some club members. (mainly 357Mag)  You may have noticed
from my email address I'm sending from Australia & this means freight is
a bit of a problem. 
      I have written to Dillon Precision and they quoted a minimum of
$100US for freight. Add to this the fact that I have to pay 42.6% import
duty on the purchase price and you can understand some of my reluctance
import myself. The Dillon agent in Australia is totaly unhelpfull so if I
want a Dillon thats pretty much the only way to go.
     Any advice and recomendations would be greatly appreciated. Please
Email answers.

Regards to brothers in shooting.
#########################
Nigel Jessup
NJessup@compserv.amc.edu.au
Australian Maritime College
Launceston Tasmania 7248
#########################
From: pertinax@raley.gwinnett.COM (Pertinax)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bags for concealed carry
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:11:52 GMT

Is anyone aware of companies that manufacture "bags" with an easy-access
compartment for a gun?  I don't mean the readily available fanny packs, but
something more like a soft attache case- big enough for paperwork or books.
I know Guardian Leather makes a shoulder bag like this, but it's awfully
expensive.

Are there any other sources out there?

						Pertinax@raley.gwinnett.com
From: chris@MorningStar.Com (Chris Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: pressure stamp
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:11 GMT
Organization: Morning Star Technologies

In article <1992Sep9.215727.25015@cbnewse.cb.att.com> sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Steven R Faber) writes:
#I saw a black powder rifle that had the barrel stamped
#
#700 Kp/cm^2
#
#Can anyone translate this to psi or offer some idea
#of what unit Kp is?
#
#
Chamber pressure in KiloPascals per square centimeter.  

Chris
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: opinions on particular models
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.gedumV200WBOM5GGFo

Much thanks to everyone who responded to my first post regarding
handguns for myself and my girlfriend.

#From all the info available, it seems that .38 special or .357 magnum is
the way to go.  We looked at various models at the gun shop, and have
tentatively choosen the following:

ME:  Taurus 60 with 4" barrel (.357 magnum)
I like the idea of being able to shoot .357 as well as .38 special.  I
was tempted by heftier .357's (S&W 660 I believe, and the similar Ruger)
but decided that if I really like shooting, I'll probably be buying
other guns in the future, and this seemed good enough for now.  I choose
the Taurus over the S&W 60 (again, my model number may be wrong) based
on price, and the info from people that Taurus is a decent brand.

Her:  S&W 42 with 2" barrel (.38 special)
This seemed like a good choice as bigger models were too heavy or big
for her hands.  The short barrel is so that she can carry it easily,
although I realize the trade-off in recoil and accuracy.  The model has
an enclosed hammer, preventing single-action use.  I personally saw this
as a minus (restriction of choice), but the salesman seemed quite sure
that it was an advantage, and I think she bought it to some extent
(won't catch on anything, you won't get used to single-action and the
have to use double-action in a self defense situtation, etc.).

So again, opinions are requested from those that have experience with,
or knowledge of, these handguns, or have better alternatives. (in their
humble opinions of course :-) )

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR-15 clones
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:23:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <9209131756.AA19154@unix.cie.rpi.edu>, vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes...
#In specific, he was leafing through an old issue of SGN and found an
#ad for a company called Nesard out in Illinois that lists kits for $285
#including all parts but a lower receiver (which I can get him for about
#$75).  Has anyone ever dealt with Nesard?  Who makes their parts (are they
#made in the USA)?  Has anyone out there ever assembled one of these kits?
#How do you like it?


 I've reworked several Nesard kits that people have assembled. 

 Each instance revealed that Nesard sells junk. Parts that are obviously 
scrap, out of tolerance, and/or just plain worn out. Their parts appear to be 
U.S. Military scrap.

 Keep in mind that you get what you pay for.
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: pressure stamp
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:08 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <199209102213.AA07986@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#In article <1992Sep9.215727.25015@cbnewse.cb.att.com> sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Steven R Faber) writes:
##I saw a black powder rifle that had the barrel stamped
##700 Kp/cm^2
##Can anyone translate this to psi or offer some idea
##of what unit Kp is?
#
#There is something very odd here: "kp" would probably mean a kilopacsal,
#or 1000 Newtons/m^2. What exactly a "Kp/cm^2" means, I'm not sure. It
#_might_ mean 700,000 Newtons/cm^2 (or 70,000 kilopascals = 700 atm. =

A Pascal is a small unit of pressure; most people end up using
kilopascals because the size of a kilopascal is better suited to the
real world.

1 kilopascal = .145 PSI
1 PSI = 6.89 kilopascals

700 Kp would only be about 100 PSI so it's obviously not a maximum
pressure rating for the chamber or barrel.

Frank is correct; there is something fishy about the kP/cm^2 business.
Is this rifle of recent manufacture?  More details on it might help
to explain the real meaning of the text.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: loia@leland.Stanford.EDU (David Loia)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What about the Ruger Ranch Rifle .223 vs Mini-
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:19 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <97e1027Q206a01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger) writes:
#
#In article <9209030032.AA02060@slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com>,
#rliles@heimdall.mlb.semi.harris.com (Ray Liles) writes:
##I'd appreciate comments on the Ruger Ranch Rifle .223 vs the Mini-14 
##or
##how the Ranch Rifle fares against the AR-15.
##
##Ray
#
#
#Ranch Rifle == Mini-14 with different iron sites (wimpy) and scope rings.
#
#Same accuracy, same action, same bbl.
#
#Eddie
#

The mini-14, at least the one I have, has a spring-loaded plunger ejector like 
the AR-15.  The Ranch rifle has fixed ejector so the brass ejects sideways to
clear a scope.  Ejected brass from a Ranch Rifle is dangerous since
it will throw it 30ft or more.
Don't be on the wrong side of a Ranch Rifle.
ALso the ranch rifle has the scope monting base intregrated into the
upper receiver.

-----------------NO TRAILER________.......
From: pprun@augustit.uswc.uswest.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Dark rust-resistant finishes
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:16:28 GMT
Organization: US WEST Information Technologies


A while ago I asked about dark rust-resistant gun finishes.  Someone
suggested the Robar Company in Phoenix.  Well, I mailed away for their
brochure and the finish that was recommended, NP3, was listed in one
color only, satin grey.  I just called them and asked what colors NP3
is available in, and was told just satin grey.  I was really looking
for a charcoal grey to black color of finish.  Does anyone know of a
reputable black chrome plater?


Pete Prun
pprun@lookout.mnet.uswest.com

(not speaking for USWEST)
From: kjf9619@rigel.tamu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: :Re: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:56 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Sep1.152727.4993@btree.uucp>, btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes...
#In article <1992Sep1.010335.23568@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
##In article <1992Aug31.155724.15759@ncsu.edu> edhresko@hresko.EOS.NCSU.EDU (ERIC DAVID HRESKO) writes:
###
###
###	As a matter of fact, I was reading an article on ammunition in ho
###      some misc stuff deleted
I have been a firefighting paramedic in texas now for over six years.  
when I first got started, I was often concerned that bullets could injure
a firefighter making an interior attack.  From the work we did at texas
a&m fireman's training school, and my experience, I have found that bullets
present virtually no danger in the box.  By theory, when the bullet reaches
ignition temparature, the lighter shell will be projected at a higher velocity
than the bullet.  The shell does not have any characteristics that make it
deadly in flight.  I have been around burning ammunition, and at best all
I could feel was slight pressure on my turnout gear where the shells would
hit.  My only concern is the fellow that keeps a loaded gun under his pillow
or in his matress.  The chambered bullet now has the potential to cause 
violent damage, but it will almost always discharge before the fire department
arrives.  As for a civilian in a burning building...  the least of my worries
would be exploding ammunition.  The average person in a house fire will die
from carbon monoxide poisining at around 120 to 200 degrees F.  Ammunition
is not going to discharge until it gets to 500 to 1000 degrees F.  The
only danger I can see is someone throwing a box of shotgun shells in a 
burning barrel (probably unique to texas) and watching over it.  The
explosions that would result could blow burning trash into the oblivious
fellow watching.
                                 kent
*************************************************************************
k.fuselier@ieee.org  "give me an army of west point graduates,
                      and I will win a battle.
                      give me a handfull of texas aggies,
                      and I will win a war."   General Patton
From: scot@hpfiseh.fc.hp.com (Scot E. Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Winchester Powder Data Available
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:12 GMT


 
In article <1992Sep8.145320.9344@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> Jim Heath writes:
: 
: I have been using WW452AA for quite a while, but the stuff has
: been canceled and I am beginning to use Super Target instead.  I
: am also curious about Target Lite and the other WW powder in this
: group (cannot recall the name).  Has anyone seen any data for
: these powders other than the WW booklet?  I am interested in
: using them in .32 H&R mag, .357 mag, .38 spl, .40 S&W, 10mm, 9mm,
: .45 acp, .45 LC and .44 mag with emphasis on the first 4 for
: right now. 
: 

The powders in this "new group" are:

WST (Winchester Super Target) 
WSL (Winchester Super Lite) 
WSF (Winchester Super Field) 

Your post prompted me to call Olin to find out if this info is available.
I just got off the phone and am happy to report that they do indeed have
centerfire pistol data for WST for 10mm, 9mm, .45acp and possibly .38 spl.
I didn't ask specifically about all the calibers you listed, the marketing
rep. I talked with volunteered from memory the ones I listed above.

If you give these folks a call (618)-258-2000, they will be happy to send
you any information they have.

Good luck.

-Scot
From: schow@sol.UVic.CA (Stirling Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Charter Arms address
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:58:06 GMT
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA

Hello, I was wondering if someone could please post the current address 
and/or phone number of Charter Arms.  Thanks very much.

						Stirling
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mossberg 500 vs Rem 8
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:08:59 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <m0mS0H2-0001TPC@rose.com> mike.federchuk@rose.com writes:
#Date Entered: 09-08-92 03:34
#Gary writes:
#K(|Don't overlook the Ithaca Riot Gun. Light, tough, and fires every
#K(|time the slide goes back in battery. (unless you let go of the
#K(|trigger) This is one fast firing 8 shot pump. It's parkerized,
#K(|oiled wood furniture, and with a sling makes an excellent combat
#K(|package. Compared one on one with a Streetsweeper, it has a much
#K(|higher rate of fire, is much more controllable, and is much
#K(|lighter.
#
#I though that trigger "disconnecters" were the law?  Doesn't your BAFT get upset
#about more than one shot per trigger pull?

The BATF requires a *manual* action to initiate each shot. In the case
of the Mod 37, that's satisfied by the requirement to work the slide
between shots.

Gary