HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Anti-Greenpeace Scenario From Thin Air
Organization: I can't see any in the immediate vicinity...
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:43:24 GMT

In article <Jym.9Dec1992.1306@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>> In the case at hand, it does not seem unreasonable to me that
>> they challenged the Japanese escort; something along the lines
>> of, 'we're going to harass this ship containing dangerous
>> fuel, in a way that could make an accident, which we abhor,
>> more likely, and we dare you to stop us'.
>
>=-= Why does that not seem unreasonable to you?  What shred
>of evidence do you have that Greenpeace has ever done anything
>even remotely like that?  That they've ever harrassed a ship
>(or anything) in a way that would endanger anyone but
>themselves?  That they would be so hypocritical as to "make
>an accident, which [they] abhor?"

Surely it is obvious to you and everyone else that if they harass a
ship in such a way that they endanger themselves, then (with the
exception of the members of the other ship taking offensive action)
they automatically put the members of the ship they're harassing at
risk as well (a collision between ships puts the lives of both ships
at risk, and if increasing the risk of a collision is not how the
Greenpeacers are endangering themselves, then I fail to see how they
would be endangering themselves, save for offensive action on the part
of the members of the other ship).

I should note here that, in my opinion, if the Greenpeacers place others
in danger, those others have the right to take steps to secure their own
safety, and that those steps may include offensive action against the
Greenpeacers.

It is hypocritical to knowingly and willingly place yourself in danger
without simultaneously being willing to accept the full consequences of
doing so.  Since the Greenpeacers are known for taking such risks, I can
only assume that they are willing to accept the consequences of those
risks, i.e. they are willing to die for their cause.

While some may view that willingness as noble, I view it as stupidity.
In general, people can do a lot more good when they're alive than when
they're dead.

Greenpeace would probably do better in the long run by concentrating on
the educational approach to environmentalism and by setting an example
of how to live in an environmentally sound way than by trying to appeal
to the sensationalistic media.  That they choose the latter approach
instead of the former approach (as evidenced by the fact that their
press releases carry with them a sense of urgency that often seems
unnecessary and shrill) indicates to me their lack of overall balance,
and to me that makes them just another group on the lunatic fringe.

Of course, these are just my opinions, so take them as such.


-- 
Kevin Brown					kevin@nuchat.sccsi.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
	    This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
			Any questions?
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: The Return of Nasty, Brut
Date: 12 Dec 92 06:53:00 GMT
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085

TO: alanm@hpindda.cup.hp.com

AM>The *factual* evidence is that hunter-gatherer societies often have *lower*
  >infant mortality and birth rates
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
Right - actually, the women have a lower conception rate, because
starvation and over-work decrease their ovulation interval - they can
only conceive when they have enough body resources to sustain a
pregnancy. This certainly isn't a conscious decision of birth control or
anything - it's basic mammalian biology.

---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-8688 . ...from San Jose, CA
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: E-Link: Mt. Graham: UPitt Protest (Press Release)
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:07:25 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1992Dec10.160507.132468@watson.ibm.com> andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor) writes:

|In article <12085@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
|>|The Mt. Graham Red Squirrel is a species that is protected by the
|>|Federal Government under the Endangered Species Act.
|>
|>This is a legal, not a scientific definition.


|The application of the Endangered Species Act is necessarily a legal process
|but the important decisions, that the taxon is valid and that it endangered,
|are based on scientific evidence.  Are you claiming these decisions were
|incorrect in the case of the Mt Graham Red Squirrel?  The first poster
|was wrong, of course, the Mt Graham Red Squirrel is a protected subspecies.

I am claiming, that like all government agencies, these decisions are based
first and foremost on political considerations.  Scientific fact places a
poor second or third in the decision making process.

-- 
Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Population growth and cultural destruction (Re: Nasty ...)
Date: 13 Dec 92 16:59:52
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
	<JMC.92Dec11180555@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Dec13.202328.21968@vexcel.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dean@vexcel.com's message of Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:23:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.202328.21968@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:


   conditions should be taken into consideration.  Stein suggested that
   local people should be given a lot of control.  This is not the case now.

Actually, I suggest local people _take_ control.
- of course I haven't defined local ;-)


*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			 Lick Observatory     	  *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		       "standard disclaimer"  	  *
* But, oh, love is strange 					  *
* and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth,      *
* I suppose 				              - B.B. 1983 *

Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Development policies
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:42:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.155957.12052@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>After some discussions here with Gary, John and Stein, I wanted to tie a
>few ideas together.  Readers might ponder why World Bank economists
>did not realize that the huge export boom they promoted would not
>lead to the commodity price plunge that occurred.  Did they forget
>about supply and demand.  Also, just who was expected to absorb the
>huge trade surpluses that would result?  Export strategies appear to
>be working for a few countries in Asia, but can they work for a large
>number of countries or is this a zero-sum game?  Is a strategy that
>works for a few countries and fails for dozens to be recommended?
>
>What follows is an extended excerpt of the history of this policy in
>Morocco.
[deleted]
>
>In the early days of the export-oriented model, in the mid-1960's,
>Morocco was able to finance most of its own modernization, but soon
>external financing was called upon to pay for greater and greater chunks
>of this policy.  On the early 1970's the country depended on external
>credit sources for 23% of the cost of its _politique des barrages_ (all
>projects, not just the dams themselves).  By the mid-1970's, as dependency
>on outsiders for food and farm inputs grew and the prices of both
>skyrocketed, the proportion of outside funds needed amounted to _half_
>of the modernization bill.  A huge gap between 1980 and 1984 brought the
>external financial share to 76% - which meant an equally huge increase in
>the national debt.  Debt, which in 1970 was a bearable 18% of the GNP,
>hit 110% of the GNP in 1984.  Part of the debt explosion was also due to
>the drastic drop in world market prices for phosphate, one of Morocco's
>major exports.

This type of increasing deficit financing would be seen as a red flag
by any rational private investor. This kind of government borrowing and 
international (government financed) lending is a recipe for disaster as 
the above quote shows. The World Bank and the IMF have few success stories 
they can claim for their policies which are founded on collectivist and 
statist thinking by academic financiers playing with money for whose steward-
ship they are not held responsible.

The alternative, of course, is for countries to make themselves attractive
for private foreign investment and development. This brings new jobs and
income to workers, tax revenue to the government, and a climate of prosperity
that fosters other investors, domestic and foreign, to start more businesses
catering to the new found flows of wealth.

Gary
From: dyurman@igc.apc.org (Dan Yurman)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: toxic spill remediation
Date: 19 Dec 92 03:50:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Dec15.195341.4090@head-cfa.h:231151157:cdp:1466602011:000:673
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dyurman    Dec 18 19:50:00 1992


One of the factors which graphically showed up in the Minamata
episode in Japan is that cats came down with the effects of
Mercury poisoning before people did because the cats ate the remains
of fish which had concentrations of Mercury in their flesh as a
result of bioaccumulation, or biomagnification.  Thus, the cats
became inadvertant, and unwilling, indicator species.  A macabre
case of a "miners' canary."

----------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Yurman            | dyurman@igc.apc.org | Chance favors only
PO Box 1569           | MCI Mail: 364-1277  | the prepared mind.
Idaho Falls, ID 83403 | 43N28 112W02 -7 GMT | -- Louis Pasteur
Xref: sparky sci.environment:13562 talk.environment:5039
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Bad science
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:36:39 GMT
Followup-To: sci.environment
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <1992Dec15.195331.16086@vexcel.com? dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

*stuff deleted

?	Three thousand years before Christ, the saplings of
?	bristlecone pines poked through the earth and began 
?	recording what would become 5,000 years of climatic
?	changes.  In studying these trees, University of
?	Arizona scientists have detected no fatter outer
?	rings that would inevitable announce the so-called
?	greenhouse effect.
?
?	The findings of UA`s Laboratory of Tree Rings Research
?	will hardly shake up most climatologists: Only one in six
?	accepts the apolcalyptic version of global warming.  But
?	pity true-believing environmentalists, the oft-mocked
?	"tree-huggers."  One of their major tenets is weaker than
?	before, thanks to the perfidy of the pine.
?

*stuff deleted

Okay. Now that we've reduced the greenhouse-effect theory to shambles, well work on
our spelling and grammer next.

By the way, who's sponsoring this study, the chemical industry?


Mike
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Enviro-industry on ABC
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:32:28 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1992Dec16.164127.25051@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker) writes:
>
>	Just wanted to note that last night's ABC News had a piece
>on Japan's push for environmental industries.  One talking head
>predicted that enviro-industry will be the biggest industry going
>by the end of the decade.  Japan is sponsoring a national push
>in all areas, selling technology to developing countries as part of
>a $9 billion gift announced at the Rio conference, and already
>making inroads in the Chinese market.
>
>	The Vice-President elect brought up this point in his book
>and in his debates.  The ironic point noted in the report is that the
>technologies being developed in Japan were originally developed in the
>U.S., such as scrubber stacks for power plants and factories.  But now
>Japan makes the best.

I think that in recent years government policy has been beholden to
existing industries, at the expense of new ones.  Maybe this will change.
I am excited that Tim Wirth is expected to be the new Sec of Energy as
I think this is the best vehicle for changing these policies.
>
>	The most amazing idea was GENESIS, a worldwide system of linked
>solar farms for electrical generation.  While China was in the dark,
>Saharan solar farms would provide electricity.  Feasible?  I don't
>know.  Being considered?  You betcha.

Did they describe how they are to be linked?  I don't know of any
available transmission technology that can link such widely
separated sources.  This limitation is the biggest technological
hurdle for utility-scale renewables though I have heard of advances in
transmission technologies.
>
>	Anybody else see this?   I'm surprised I'm the first one to
>note it.
>
>	Jim Acker
>	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov
>


-- 
==============================================================================

	"A calculator is no better than the equation it solves" - me
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: davidbri@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (David Brierley)
Subject: Zinc
Organization: Northeastern University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:42:27 GMT

    On the topic of environmental regulations, someone mentioned that a
limit on zinc was lower than the dietary requirement for humans.  It is
important to note that the chemical state of the substance is at least
as important as its concentration.  I don't know anything about zinc
toxicity but I'd guess that the zinc in supplements is in a more stable
form (i.e. less reactive), like an oxide.  In waste zinc is often
dissolved in an acidic medium and is therefore more reactive and
possibly more toxic.  If this is true it is possible that a lower
concentration of zinc in one form is more toxic than the same
concentration of zinc in another form.

     Another example is chromium.  Many vitamin/mineral supplements
(like Centrum and the CVS equivalent Spectravite) contain chromium,
which is a necessary trace nutrient that plays a role in glucose
metabolism.  The chromium is in its trivalent state, that is, it the
chromium ion has a +3 charge.  On the other hand, hexavalent chromium
(Cr+6) is extremely toxic; I believe it can also damage genetic
material.  "Hexachrome" is the form of chromium found in electroplating
wastes and is more reactive than trivalent chromium.  In fact the EPA
has developed two methods for separating and analyzing the hexachrome,
in addition to establishing methods to analyze total chromium content.
From: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: E-Link: Ticket Americ
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:45:00 GMT
Reply-To: paul.burnett@pcs.sj.ca.us (Paul Burnett)
Organization: PCS-BBS - San Jose, CA - 408-270-4085

TO: env-link+@andrew.cmu.edu

SE>I know that I am REALLY worried about this one, I'm sure that getting a
  >ticket for leafleting a car would worry most other environmentalists...

I'm just pointing out that having an arrest or conviction for tampering
with an automobile (tantamount to attempted car theft in some circles)
might not look too good on your resume after you get out of college.

  >As for the Smith and Wesson, I've already faced that and many other
  >threats from industrialists and their Wise Use cronies that hang out on
  >these usenet groups.

I'm not talking about the text-based mind games you find on computers -
I'm talking about the down-and-dirty real world of messin' with some
red-neck's pet truck.

---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-8688 . ...from San Jose, CA
                                                                                                                       
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Outer Limits
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:22:48

The chickens story is a counterexample to what Ehrlich actually said
in the book.  Alan McGowen has amended it to something that seems
correct, but even so, the second law of thermodynamics has nothing to
do with it and is added as an incantation to science.  Mere
conservation of mass is all that is actually required.

By the way, on "Why do they hate us", it seems to me that I get more
hate mail than Alan.

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:29:40 EST
From: <VIC@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: E-Link: Ticket America Ca
 <JMC.92Dec14220002@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>

Auto-addicted netlanders show a real uneasiness about the TICKET AMERICA
campaign.  I think they fear the truth about the real environmental
destructiveness of the car will force them to alter their selfish
life style.  They have been brain washed too long by the auto-makers
who spend billions each year in advertizing.  According to one auto-maker
the average person sees over 25 car commercial per day (10,000 ads per year).

The car-addicts must discourage and intimdate any one or any idea that
might make the truth known about the automobile's unhealth, destructive
and enslaving nature.  They will conjure up all kinds of excuses and
reason to justify their addictive destructive life-style and will
encourage others follow their folly.

"Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction
and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow is the
road that leads to life and only a few find it."

   Victor Lee
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: What's Necessary?
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 18 Dec 92 10:25:27

In article <1466602010@igc.apc.org> alanm@igc.apc.org (Alan McGowen) writes:
  References: <149180179@hpindda.cup.hp.com>
   Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <notes@igc.apc.org>
   Lines: 9
   Nf-ID: #R:hpindda.cup.hp.com:149180179:cdp:1466602010:000:275
   Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!alanm    Dec 17 22:50:00 1992


   Climatic fluctuations can perturb an ecosystem away from a 
   coevolutionary equilibrium. Nevertheless, the tendency to 
   approach such an equilibrium is unavoidable, and is the most 
   probable explanation for the diversity and coadaptedness 
   of life.

   ------------
   Alan McGowen

This is dubious unless chaotic fluctuations are put under the heading
of equilibrium.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Ideal Transportation Planning for Cities
Followup-To: sci.environment
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:37:24

I think it would be informative for the rest of us if the Berkeley
City Council would pass laws extreme enough so that people would
actually start to move out.  Probably, before anyone moved out
the City Council would be replaced, so we wouldn't get a real look
at the social consequences of Vandeman's proposals.

Too bad.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor)
Subject: Re: The Outer Limits
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:36:34 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <JMC.92Dec16193832@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>May I cite a biochemist, Bruce Ames, who says that humans ingest more than
>4,000 times as much carcinogens (by the standard rodent test) from natural
>sources as from all artificial sources.

Which is irrelevant to your claim that a "society, not much more advanced
technologically and not at all more advanced scientifically than ours" will
be able to remove pollutants from the environment.  How, for example, do you
propose to remove DDT and its breakdown products from the food web.

Andrew Taylor
From: rrees@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: SEAC
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:23:36 GMT
Reply-To: rrees@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: oavax.csuchico.edu

A group of students I work with here at CSU, Chico are interested in linking
up with other campus groups interested in environmental issues particularly
as they pertain to University campuses.  Representatives of our Environmental
Affairs Commission recently attended a SEAC conference in Berkeley and
really got a lot out of it.  We have tried to communicate with the e-mail
address for SEAC at Chapel Hill to no avail.  We really would like to share
information with other campus on recycling, transportation, parking, 
food service, recycled products, paper usage, Earth Day Programs, etc., etc.
Any information or the establishment of an e-mail distribution system or ?
would be appreciated.  Thanks.
From: dyurman@igc.apc.org (Dan Yurman)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: toxic spill remediation
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:01:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Dec15.195341.4090@head-cfa.h:231151157:cdp:1466602006:000:419
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dyurman    Dec 16 07:01:00 1992


Given your email address of Harvard, I suggest you cross the Charles
River and talk to the US EPA Regional Office in Boston.  They are
located int he Federal Bldg downtown by the City Hall.

--------------------------------------------------------
Dan Yurman dyurman@igc.apc.org  dyurman%igc.org@stanford
PO Box 1569 Idaho Falls ID 83403 USA 112W01 43N28 -7 GMT
Chance favors only the prepared mind   --  Louis Pasteur
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker)
Subject: Re: Enviro-industry on ABC
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:43:13 GMT

Carl J Lydick (carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec16.192912.473@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>, jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker) writes:
: =: Did they describe how they are to be linked?  I don't know of any
: =: available transmission technology that can link such widely
: =: separated sources.  This limitation is the biggest technological
: =: hurdle for utility-scale renewables though I have heard of advances in
: =: transmission technologies.
: =
: =	Long cables.
: 
: That much was obvious.
: 
: =With anticipation of improved transmission technology.
: 
: What improvements are they assuming?  Transmission of DC electricity is a
: pretty well-understood field.  You've got a pair of conductors separated by an
: insulator.  The effectiveness of the insulator limits the voltages you can use.
: Go to too high a voltage, and the insulator breaks down.  The conductors, on
: the other hand, have some resistance.  So the more current you run through
: them, the more losses you have.  In order to improve on what we currently have,
: you've got to either increase the effectiveness of the insulator or decrease
: the resistance of the cables.
: 
: So what are they assuming will provide the improvement in transmission
: technology?  Room-temperature superconductors?  40-foot thick cables?  What?


	The entire discussion of GENESIS amounted to about 20 seconds
in the piece.  GENESIS was clearly the most outlandish and extravagant
idea discussed, but Japan supposedly has a 100-year enviro-industry
plan.  I even implied "long cables" from the map of the system.  So I
don't know how they will surmount the technological hurdles.  Knowing
some of Japan's other fronts, I think I can conjecture that
superconductivity figures in.  That's all I know!

	Jim Acker
	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: sci.environment