HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:19:18 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dangerous Place!!!

Ian,

I asked this question one time but nobody responded or I missed it somehow.

Isn't there a phrophesy about children disappearing in the last days?
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:32:17 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Sponged [was Re: Re: homosexuality]
 <BtwL5z.4FB@news.larc.nasa.gov> <BtxJnA.7vH@acsu.buffalo.edu>

In article <BtxJnA.7vH@acsu.buffalo.edu>, psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert
Weiss) says:
>
>[various quotes from Bishop Spong deleted]
>     Like other tolerant intolerants of our day, the bishop loads his
>language, focusing on such positive notions as "celebration,"
>"life-giving," and commitment" in the face of dark "prejudice" and
>"obsessive concern" of the church. By implication, anyone who disagrees
>with his ideas is "out of touch with reality."

I think one needs to look at actual words in the Bible.  Someone else
posted the various citations relevant to this discussion.  I went back
to my online Bible (KJV based) to re-read those references, and after
that, it re-affirms my original feeling - the statements made are at
best vague when they talk about homosexuality (as we consider it today -
that is, a same sex committment - any other definition doesn't apply)

I recall (forgive me, I didn't note verse) a statement to the effect
that "man left the natural use of woman...." etc.  This is the strongest
potential reference to homoesxuality (the rest are even weaker).
However, if you accept this statement (fully written out) as inerrant
fact, then it says NOTHING about homosexuality.

Think about it - as a gay man, my "use of women" would be quite unnatural,
but my relations with other men would be quite natural to me.  I assert that
this passage is vague at best, and refers to prostitution rather than
what we now see as comitted loving same sex relationships.

As for discounting Spong (among others), I find it disheartening that
you (general you) find that their analysis of bibical writings are
wrong, and brush them off without looking deeper into what they have
to say.

As a side thought - I've given a lot of thought to a "second coming" - a
re-visit of a savior to our world.  How would he/she be recognized?
Wouldn't a 20th/21st century "Jesus" be seen as a wacko - much like the
Romans did nearly 2000 years ago?  I don't ask that question lightly -
I'd seriously like impressions on such a re-visit (and the possibility
that this whole same sex relationship issue might be a reason "he" would
want to make a presense - to fix things)

Just a thought...  comments?

-Tim
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:41:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Absolution

In a message of Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:48:20 EDT
Received on Mon, 31 Aug 92 08:53 N
Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> wrote:

>No, you have not understood the Catholic teaching on confession
>correctly.

I try to understand, but it seems to be not as simple as it seems...
Your message didn't clear things up, so I'll ask some simple questions
in response:

>I said that someone's whose
>sins are forgiven because he confesses them directly to God (with
>perfect contrition)

So if someone is confessing his sins with perfect contrition to God, are
they forgiven?

>must still confess to a priest out of obedience
>to God's plan.
[...]
>It would have
>been better if I had said in fulfillment of God's plan.

I don't see the difference.

>The Council of Trent defined
>that perfect contrition brings forgiveness only when it is associated
>with a desire for the Sacrament of Confession.  (For Protestants that
>would be an implicit desire, in that the repentant sinner desires to
>do whatever God wants him to do and would go to confession if he knew
>that that was what God wanted.

But what is the difference between a Protestant (me, e.g.) that knows
that the RCC holds this position, but doesn't agree and a RC that knows
it and doesn't agree either? Am I forgiven because I'm not a member of
the RCC and the one who is closer to the truth (in being a member of the
RCC) is not?

>Therefore, the priest's words
>of absolution, said with the authority given by Jesus to His Apostles
>and their successors, effect the forgiveness of sins.  They do not
>merely declare the fact of God's forgiveness.

Very confusing! So here again I understand that you think that
(a) the priest's words of absolution remove my sins (maybe too short,
      but I wanted to use other words) and
(b) don't just recognize that God already forgave me.
This would mean that if I confess to God I am not forgiven, because no
priest gave the absolution. How then can Protestants be forgiven? - If
on the other hand God forgives non-Catholics that confess to Him without
a priest giving the absolution, then the essential act would indeed be
confession to God - and the priest would indeed just declare the fact
that God has already forgiven the sins. I don't get these two statements
together.

Sorry to bother you. I'm just trying to understand.

Wolfgang <><
From: CORJB@RHODES.BITNET (Jason Briggs Cormier)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Christian Youth
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:43:08 GMT
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Yvette:

How old are your youth?

One of the best things is to make the Word relate to
their day-to-day lives.  This can be done by finding
answers to current questions in the Bible.

There are a zillion fund-raising things that can be done.
I know that this one is probably overdone, but I loved
doing carwashes, when we were raising money for camp
and convention.

Tell me how old the kids are and I'll try to come up with some
more ideas.

Jason
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:51:21 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      B.C. Cartoonist
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>

Carol,

Johnny Hart is the cartoonist for B.C., and he helps with The Wizard of
Id.  As an undergraduate, I went to college in Binghamton, New York,
Johnny Hart's home town.  Every year they have golf tournament there
called the B.C. (Broome County) Open, and Johnny Hart does the logo for it.

Just a little more info on the man...

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:14:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Avoiding church name traps

From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@MIL.AF.DRCVAX>

>Daniel, you are very correct in your admonition.  The real church, not the
>one most Christians imagine, is composed of God's elect from the four
>corners.  Some of those elect are Christians, some are Moslems and some are
>atheists.  They will be saved because they are the Elect, not because they
>might eventually join a recognized, or unrecognized, church.

Dan,

Beware ... this is in direct conflict with the Gospel passage about Jesus
being the only way... await the hail of mail !!!

True though, God's elect probably won't conform to what people expect.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol A Long,  					DISCLAIMER - unless otherwise
IT Service,					stated this message contains
Southampton Institute of Higher Education	my opinion...probably only mine
East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
						acknowlegements to author.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 09:16:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Update on Kyle
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

Well we've been to the orthopaedic surgeon. _Yet again_ nothing conclusive. He
can't put his finger on anything that matches Kyle's walking problem. His
walk is better, but still different to his what it was prior to last Wednesday.

We have had a blood test since (I got to play Judas Iscariot, giving him a
cuddle before and during the needle) and will be back at the orthopaedic
surgeon again next Monday to see if there is anything different.

Lyn is thrilled to know that there are fellow Christians praying for Kyle
around the world. (Me too, but I'm not new to the idea :) ...). In the
meantime we are trusting God for His grace. In some ways it's been easier
to cope with because it's a problem that has "God-size" written all over it.
Sometimes it's very easy to throw the big things to God for Him to carry
but not so easy to hand over the little ones.

Thanks for all your prayer and support. We are strengthened by them, and by
the knowledge that the source of all things good knows all that is coming.

Your humbled brother
Ken Diefenbach
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:43:16 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Their Lady of Cold Springs

Dear Frank ;
I have personally known Tom for 13 years and I can tell that he is not
ridiculing and person.What he wants people is to THINK a little bit.
It is called employing "argumentum absurdum."
His intent is not to ridiclue.
However, I have personally worked with Catholic students when I was here
at LSU getting my last degree, and I did not ridicule them as I shared what
the Bible says on different things.
I found them defensive, malevolent, and closed to outside information, with
an exception to 2 or 3 persons. When the priest caught wind that I was being
conversational with "his" students, he essentially told me that it was either
their way or the highway.
I do have a concern for Catholics, but my experience with them has been less
than encouraging.  Even my dealings with jehovah's witnesses has been more
fruitful, overall ... they were less defensive and not openly belligerant
toward me, a theological interloper.

Tom's concern for the final welfare of the Catholics is genuine and so is mine.



Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:26:16 GMT

In article <BtKKB3.rJ@acsu.buffalo.edu> psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss) writes:
>>   Furthermore, when one takes the time to read other histories of the
>>early Church, i.e. the early Fathers, one certainly finds very strong
>>evidence that today the Catholic Church is more like the early Church
>>than any of the other denominations of Christianity today.  One must
>>twist Scripture to "prove" otherwise.
>
>	The early church was denomination-less. True christianity has 
>remained denomination-less. It has remained an organism as it has 
>always been. It has not been changed into an organization.

   Bob, I thought about the word "denomination" as I was writing.  My
use of the phrase "other denominations" was not meant to imply that
the Catholic Church is also a denomination.  I believe the Catholic
Church is the same Church founded by Christ, and that denominations
are those that have split off from the Catholic Church.  The Catholic
Church did not split off from another church, so it is not a
denomination.

   As far as being "an organization," the Church has always been a
hierarchy.  To say otherwise is to ignore the Bible.  Even Saul, who
was converted by the Lord Himself, was told to go to join the Church
authorities.  If the "organized" Church is not mandated by Christ,
then Ananias would not have been sent to lay hands on Saul/Paul to
give him the Holy Spirit. 

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:29:43 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Labor Day (Mon 07 Sept 1992)

LABOR DAY (In the United States, the first Monday in September)

READING: Ecclesiastus (Sirach) 38:27-32 (see NOTE below)
 (praise for the productive worker)

ALTERNATE READING: Proverbs
 (praise for a skilled and intelligent craftsman)

PSALM 107:1-9
 (praise to the LORD, who delivers from distress)

EPISTLE: 1 CORINTHIANS 3:10-14
 (we are accountable to God for the quality of our work)

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Matthew 6:9-24
 (we cannot have our hearts set both on God and on wealth)

PRAYER
   Almighty God, who hast so linked our lives one with another
   that all we do affects, for good or ill, all other lives:
   So guide us in the work we do, that we may do in not for
   self alone, but for the common good; and as we seek a
   fit return for our own labor, make us mindful of the
   rightful aspirations of others, and arouse our concern for
   those who have no employment; through Jesus Christ our
   Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
   one God, for ever and ever.

NOTE: The first reading is from an apocryphal book. For those
wishing to avoid non-canonical readings, an alternate reading is
provided. For those who wish to see the reading, but who do not have
at hand a Bible with the apocrypha, the text is provided below.

     Every carpenter and workmaster that laboreth night and
day, and they that give themselves to fashioning imagery, and
watch to finish a work;
     The smith also sitting by the anvil, and considering the
iron work, he setteth his mind to finish his work, and watcheth
to polish it perfectly.
     So doth the potter sitting at his work, and turning the
wheel about with his feet, who is always carefully set at his
work, and maketh all his work by number.
     All these trust to their hands, and every one is wise in
his work.
     Without these cannot a city be inhabited, and they shall
not dwell where they will nor go up and down.
     They shall not be sought for in public council, nor sit
high in the congregation;
     But they will maintain the state of the world, and all
their desire is in the work of their craft.
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:37:08 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Concerned Women for America

I would like this information also.

Bernice
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:11:13 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: visions
              psyrobtw@UBVMSB.CC.BUFFALO.EDU

  I would like to make sure that everyone understands me.  I personally was not
making a claim that there have not been any true visions of Mary the mother of
Jesus.   I was only trying to state that I did not believe in the visions of
Cindi Cain.  THis is not to say that I am correct.  Only that "I" personally
did not believe them.  I do believe that God gives us visions.  I feel that I
have experienced at least one myself.  My father claims to have had a vision of
prophesy himself and I am still waiting to see if it is fulfilled.  If I
misled anyone into thinking that I did not feel any vision was true, then I am
sorry.  I was not denouncing all Catholic visions.

 I would also like to request prayer at this time.  A co-worker is spreading
lies to my supervisor and I have caught him in these lies.  THis is very pain-
ful for me.  I just cannot understand it.  There is a possibility of promotion
maybe in the future and this is the only possible reason I can come up with
for his accusations.  I would rather not be promoted than to have this pain
because I have a lot of pride in the work I do.  Maybe too much.  Please pray
for me.  I can never understand a person who simply tells lies for his own
personal reasons especially when it hurts someone else.  He can't know God.
And for this reason, I know I should pray for him.  Please pray for him too.
:)  You knew that was coming didn't you?



                                   Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:52:43 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      NOMAIL/prayer request

I am setting myself nomail because I am about to leave on vacation
and I have a lot of last minute things to do before I leave. I will
be attending the World Science Fiction convention in Orlando, where I
will conduct a Christian Fandom meeting.  I ask prayers for my safe
return and for the success of the meeting that it may strengthen
Christian fans and make Christianity a more visible presence in
fandom so that more fans will come to know Christ.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:21:57 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      We survived Andrew!

Dear All on Christia ;
Tom Brewer and I, Jesse Carnes, survived Hurricane Andrew by God's
grace and are well.
Tom will be back in action shortly after he debugs some things due to the
mail pileup during the tempest.



Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: The Bible and Homophobia
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:11:54 GMT

jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell) writes:

>My point was not that THE Bible was incorrect but that there are MANY
>Bibles. Just look in any large bookstore -- the Bible is available in
>many different versions. And where did these versions originate? Is
>the King James version accurate? Gutenberg's? Do we have to go back to
>Latin sources? Greek? Hebrew? How many times has the Bible been
>translated and changed by men (and maybe a few women) along the way?

Suggestions:
    Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason L. Archer, Zondervan
      Publishing House, 1982.

    The Origin of The Bible, Philip Wesley Comfort, ed., Tyndale House
      Publishers, 1992.

Basically, we know that the original manuscripts were authoritative as
scripture, knowing the sources and knowing that it was considered by
other authoritative sources as such.  Although we do not have the original
manuscripts, the reconstruction and verification of the manuscripts we do
have is not a haphazard, unreliable process.  Furthermore, the ascribing
of authorship to the books of the bible is not as unreliable as the quiz
writer would have us believe.  Both of the above books are valuable in
understanding this issue, and additionally Gleason Archer provides a
detailed overview of textual critism.  The Origin of The Bible contains
lists and descriptions of biblical manuscripts as well as descriptions of
translation techniques, verification techniques, problems, and general
appreciation of the bible.

Hope this Helps,
-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:44:38 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Stray thoughts on Sodom
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Dan wrote: "Sodom was given no warning.  If it had, it would have repented.
For proof, see Matt. 11:23,24.  Jesus clearly says that if the miracles
which had been performed in Capernium had been done in Sodom, the city
would remain to that time.  The obvious question is them, why on earth
weren't they performed, didn't God want them saved?"

While I agree with what would have happened IF, I cannot let "the obvious
question" pass without comment.

The point of our Lord's words was aimed at those in Israel who, while enjoying
all of their dispensational advantages according to election (the Holy
Scriptures, Christ's coming and ministry among them), were not repenting.  The
obvious question is then, why weren't they repenting, since they had a
dispensation of God like no other nation on earth?  The obvious point is then,
those famous wicked folks of Sodom and Gomorrah would stand better in the day
of judgment than the Christ-rejecting holier-than-thou folks in Israel (Matt.
11:24).

There is a word here for all believers of all dispensations, whether included
in the particular election of Israel or not, whether having witnessed
evidential miracles or not.  We are each held responsible for what we have
received from God, no more and no less.

"Jesus said, "I came into this world so that the world could be judged.  I came
so that the blind could see and so that those who see will become blind."  Some
of the Pharisees were near Jesus.  When they heard him say this, they asked,
"What?  Are you saying that we are blind, too?"  Jesus said, "If you were
really blind, you would not be guilty of sin.  But now that you say you can
see, your guilt remains"" (John 9:39-41).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:21:06 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Pledging allegiance

Kerry,

Regarding your quote from Ps.33:12 --

There is only one nation or people whose God is the LORD, whom He has
chosen for His inheritance, and that nation is the biblical nation of
Israel.  One could possibly extrapolate this verse to apply it to the
Church, but never to any of the temporal kingdoms of this world.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:20:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Matthew 24

The abomination of desolation cannot be an Internal event.

In Daniel 9:26-27 (NIV)
25. "After the sixty-two 'sevens', the annointed one will be cut off and have
nothing.  The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and
the sanctuary.  The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the
end and desolations have been decreed.

27. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'.  In the middle
of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.  And on a wing
of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until
the end that the decree is poured out on him.

This says about as clearly as it can be said that the abomination is caused
by the ruler whose people come to destroy the city.

Brian