From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:51:25 GMT

Isaac Balbin writes:
>Stan Krieger writes:
>
>>This all goes back to a point I raised a few days ago.  The
>>Orthodox Jewish community does not define our religion.  
>
>It does, always has, and always will, and you acknowledge that yourself.
			       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Huh?

>Stan Krieger doesn't accept the definition though.
>That's fine, Stan.

Actually, 90% of your coreligionists don't; I'm just one of millions.

>>It still amazes me how, after the lesson of Tisha B'Av and the civil
>>war that led to the Roman conquest, how after the Holocaust, when
>>the Nazis didn't care who was Orthodox, Conservative, Reform,
>>non-observant, or even halachically not Jewish, and how even as we
>>see the emergence of anti-Semitism in Europe today,  we see
>>Jews on this net, under the guise of being the only ones who
>>"know" how to observe our religion, fragmenting what's left
>>of our people.
>
>It amazes me even more that you can with one rather sweeping brush of pixels
>attempt to cast the sadness of Tisha B'Av and the tragedy of the Holocaust
>over the quite legitimate theological distinction between Orthodox and
>the rest.

Yes, there is a theological distinction; that's why there are O, C,
and R.  The only problem is that O doesn't acknowledge the
legitimacy of C and R, and to the extent that it tries to
discredit C and R, which is what Tisha B'Av is probably all about.

In case you forgot, we are one people, and the infighting over
whether the child of a woman converted by a Bet Din of Conservative
Rabbis is Jewish is just as harmful to our people as are our
real enemies.
>
>What are you saying?
>
>That it is based on Sinas Chinam (your pointer to Tisha B'Av)
>		We know that's just plain rubbish.

Huh?

>That Hitler defined who is a Jew? (your pointer to the Holocaust)
>		I find that thought repulsive in the extreme

Let's face it; people were murdered for being Jewish who you, in
your infinite wisdom, would exclude from our community.  That's
why I think is repulsive in the extreme.

>That Anti-semitism in Eurpoe should somehow weaken one's resolve to attach
>oneself to (in the Orthodox view) The theologically correct interpretation 
>of Judaism?
>		I can't even begin to see the connection
>That maintaining ones theological conviction is tantamount to fragmenting
>our people?
>		This is preposterous.

Maintain your theological conviction all you want, but don't forget
the REALITY that what you observe as Judaism is one of several
LEGITIMATE interpretations of what God expects of US, the Jewish
people.   You seem to, very conveniently, forget that reality, and
are willing to exclude 90% of your co-religionists from "your"
religion.  Look it's OUR religion, and don't you for one second
ever forget that we're in it together.

>Get of your soap box Krieger, look at yourself and then go out and
>set a good example. That's all you have to do. If you do it, then 
>you will have achieved a hell of a lot more than the nonsense you
>posted above.

The only nonsense is your head in the sand attitude.  It's time you
recognize the real world.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com