From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:10:04 GMT

miha@proteus1.UUCP (Sinisa Mihailovic) writes:

>In <BxIAvn.Dp2@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>>Because Yugoslavia (country of ALL South Slavs) cannot be called so
>>if it does not include ALL South Slav nations wilingly joined
>>in: Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians

>		       ^^^^^^^^^

>	Excuse me, just to make things clear. Who, exactly  are "the Bosnians".
>If  I am informed correctly and I should be since I lived in  Sarajevo for some
>ammount  of  time,  there  are three main ethnic groups in  Bosnia-Herzegovina:
>Bosnian  Croats,  Bosnian  Serbs  and  muslim  Slavs.  Naming either of them as 
>"Bosnians" represents the injustice  to others because it is a clear attempt to 
>steal  the  history,  cultural  heritage and many other things from either two.

The Bosnians are people living in Bosnia, and Hercegovians are the people
living in Hercegovina of orthodox, catholic, islamic, jewish confessions,
atheists and all others who feel BH is their country by sharing the same
historical and cultural heritige. So, Bosnian Croats are the Bosnians,
Bosnian Serbs are the Bosnians.
Of course, those who claim they are Serbs but not Bosnians of orthodox
confession or atheists, can live in BH since the BH constitution respects
the rights of minorites. In this regard, the situation is similar to those
in neighboring countries: Croatia is the country of the Croatian people
and others, Serbia is the country of Serbian people and others, etc.

As for stealing history and cultural heritage, let me remind you
that Chetniks renamed occupied cities Bosanski Novi,
Bosanska Kostajnica, Bosanski Brod into, respectively, Novi, Kostajnica
and Brod. Do you want me to tell you how many catholic churches, mosques
and sinagogues the Chetniks have leveled off? If you claim to have lived
in Sarajevo, it was definetely for a very short period, because if you
lived longer in this city of tolerance you wouldn't talk rubishes.

>According  do  your name I  am assuming that you are a muslim, so I am assuming 
>that  you are  speaking of muslim Slavs.

Wrong assumption, see above.
> Of all the three people they should be 
>the  most silent one when speaking of historical, etc. heritage.

Look into history books. You were taught history when attending the school
in Serbia which neglects Bosnian history.

>>and others. Therefore, what is nowdays so-called FR Yugoslavia
>>should be termed Serboslavia, and the Bosnians clearily do not
>>want to live there and be treated as a second-class citizens
>>(if allowed to live there), see treatment of Albanians in Kosovo.

>	In the light of which I said above: Bosnian Serbs are also "Bosnians",
>they  didn't want to  seceede. According to the 1991 census data there are 31% 
>of Bosnian Serbs + 6% of those who declared themselves as Yugoslavs (which are 
>also  mainly  Bosnian  Serbs

not true. Most Yugoslavs are either Slavic Muslims, the remnants of older
times when Muslims were not allowed to be called so by UDBA (the security
police). Others are from mixed marriages of all confessions.

> who didn't want secession and warned that they will 
>seceede    from   such   artificially  made  state   as  today's  "independent 
>Bosnia-Herzegovina" was supposed to be.

Again, you skip the history class on BH in high school in Belgrade
(to say most politely).
Bosnia-Hercegovina is the state as old as Serbia. The Bosnian ban
Boric came to power in 1158, followed by Kulin 1180-1204 whose
herald is now official herald of Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina.
The first king of Bosnia become Tvrtko 1353-1391 who even conquered
most of Serbia after the death of Serbian czar Dusan.
The last king Stjepan Tomasevic 1461-1463 surrended to Turks.
Notice Bosnian kingdom lasted longer than Serbian which fell to
Ottoman empire 1389.

> According to all statistical data, those
>same Bosnian  Serbs own more than 60% of the land, so who can decide in their 
>name?

For three centuries Bosnians of islamic confession were landords,
with Christians having had very few acres of land.
Those lands were unlawfully taken away from the Bosnians in 1918 by 
Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia thru the agrar reform. I am prepared to provide
a reference for my claim. So 60% of land is data after land-grabbing
took place. If you use statistic data taken out of context,
what is the reason for Serbs to claim Kosovo when population
and land is 90% Albanian there. 

> do  If muslim Slavs want to seceede why don't give that right to the others, 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
All non-Serbs in BH voted out. Why did Serbs choose not to vote at all?
Why did not they vote NO? So, you don't know how many Bosnians
of orthodox confession would vote for YES? I would say a reasonable
number, as well a resonable numbers of the same group fight now
in Bosnian army, including the son of Serbian warlord Mr. Karadzic.
>too?  Or  are  we speaking double standards, again? 

>>the order quite well, despite the accommodations made by Muslim
>>and Croatian parties to please the Serbs by speaking
>>about "sovereignity" (not the same as "independence")
>>The vote on "sovereignity" were carried out in BH parliament, attended

>	 I  am  amazed  with that kind of logic. Or are you denying the Bosnian 
>Serbs even the right  for existance and their own choices and moves?  Or do you
>think that they can't think for themselves?

Well, they chose Montenegro-born pshychiatrist to be their leader.
While his professional background (worked in mentally retarded institutions
in Sarajevo) could serve him well to design and order
unimaginable atrocities committed by Chetniks (say, make a 6-year child
watch his mother being raped and throat-cutted), I believe Serbs could
choose as their leader somebody with Bosnian heritage.
He was installed by Mr. Milosevic, anyway.

However, I think Mr. Izetbegovic, in his role as the president
of the Slavic Mulsim party, does not represent all Bosnians of
islamic confession and atheists. I do recognise  him as the President
of Rep. of BH, representing all Bosnians.

>all the territories they own, and little bit more, and don't give a damn what 
>Serbia and Yugoslavia think about it? 

You think so? Just cut the economic, military and personnel help
pouring in from Serbia and Karadzic is gone in days.

>If it was for Serbia to object  Bosnia's independence, why did it 
>completely pull Serbian contigent of YPA soldgiers to Serbia and transformed 
>the army so that it better suits the defense purposes?

What about the HUGE stockpile of weapons left by YPA. Keep in mind
that Bosnians, thru their taxes, contributed to purchase/manufacture
of the arms and should have received the proportional share.

> Or are you going to tell 
>me about the "attacks from Serbia" what was denied each time when the so_called  
>BH government tried to draw the world's attention with false claims, by various 
>UN   organizations,  observers,  etc...  I  should  count  there  non-existant 
>death-camps or even detention camps for muslim Slavs in Serbia.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The whole world saw clips made by western reporters. If you don't
want to admit, that your problem. It reminds me of some nazi
guys who claim holocaust of Jews did not exist.

>If you are American-born muslim Slav, then it's about the time to take

I am in Toronto, Canada. Canada is not USA. I am a proud Bosnian
having lived in Sarajevo for 25 years. But my Sarajevo, where people
lived, worked, loved each other without regard whose ethnic group
one belongs to, is still alive despite the shelling by Chetniks
who share the same biggotry as you do. So please do not mention
that you lived in Sarajevo, you do not belong to Sarajevo,
your heart is not there.

> that map in your hands and study a little where is Serbia.

It is east of the Drina river. BH was never Serbia, never will it be.

> And strongest argument about all this is:if it really wanted to
> make greater Serbia, Serbia could have 
>chewed  Bosnia-Herzegovina  for  breakfast, will all the arms and humanpower it 
>has,  lot before the Bosnia was recognized (so it was under the jurisdiction of 
>YPA,  was  it. As  for  the  world  recognition,  many  of the countries which 
>represent something in todays world, already stated that the recognition of 
>Bosnia-Herzegovina was premature and pushed by Germany, as I recall.

Yeah, like Zimbabwe or PR China. How many states did recognise Serboslavia?

>-- miha
Senad Arnautovic

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna