HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bacchus@mcl.ucsb.edu (Graham Linn)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Making up patrols
Keywords: patrol
Date: 2 Oct 92 21:14:17 GMT
Distribution: usa


One way that I haev seen work in my troop was to try to mix the ages of the
scouts evenly, ie. the oldest and youngest scout in the same patrol.  This
lets the more experienced scouts teach the younger ones, and this also takes
some of the burden off the patrol leader.  As far as worrying about the 
strength of the patrol, I was more concerned with how the troop wroked together
By separating friends into different patrols, you seem to tie the troop into
one BIG patrol.  Let me know what else you hear!
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:26:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: m.1992Oct5.192622.17152
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar) writes:

[...]
>Scouting, as it exists in the BSA, is a religious movement in the sense
>that it holds that spirtual development is an integral part of the
>maturation process, and that you cannot have good moral development
>without a commensurate religious growth.
[...]
>I have no problem working with boys who are Jewish, Moslem or Hindu.
[...]
>Instead of encouraging the cubs in your den to get the religious awards,
>how about encouraging them to explore the differences and similarities
>bewteen the major religions of the world.
[...]

So, the BSA expects it's boys and adult leaders to accept that
spiritual development within any religion (Baha'i, Buddhist, Christian
Scientists, Islamic, Zoroastrian all give scouting awards) is an
integral part of the maturation process?

There are many who believe that only spiritual development within the
true (their) religion is important. They believe that spiritual
development in other religions is at best an illusion and at worst a
violation of God's will.

Those who don't accept the BSA's philosophy have two choices. They can
join a more religious scouting program (e.g. AWANA) or they can join a
secular program (e.g. 4-H).

I would be interested in seeing someone defend the BSA's "any religion
is good" philosophy. It seems untenable to me except for Unitarians
and Baha'is.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:17:32 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.131650.6380@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>I have appreciated all comments in this thread and feel that I can now
>reconcile with my Lord on this one.

Todd,
  As a Christian, I too have had to reconcile my faith with some of the
"usages" in the BSA. Among these usages are some very "generic" and
ecumenical prayers and benedictions such as, "May the Great Master of
all Scouts be with us 'till we meet again." or "O Great Spirit help and
guide us.....". I have come to  look upon these as just another way I
address my Lord. I mention this because I feel that you may want to
consider your decision fully and prayerfully, with the guidance of your
pastor.

>I feel since Scouting has so much to
>offer my son and his fellow cub scouts in every other aspect that I must 
>maintain a tolerance in the area of religious awards.  I can see that the 
>BSA in a very real sense does not promote any particular faith in any of its
>activities.  I appreciate its emphasis on spiritual growth and to really
>study and learn about one's religion.  I must allow my Lord to work
>through this effort and trust that all such religious undertakings will 
>eventually lead to a better understanding of Lord Jesus.  As a Christian, I
>must actively defend my Lord against any and all attacks upon his 
>sovereignty, and to teach those who are ready to hear his message.  But 
>these activities must be conducted entirely outside of any "scout" setting
>so as not to be construed as any teaching or indoctrination of the BSA.

This, to some degree, depends on the nature of the Pack/Troop. Many
Packs/Troops are chartered to churches as a youth activity of that 
church. These Packs/Troops often have a definite religious character
reflecting the character of the Chartering Organization. In these
Packs/Troops ministry may be a activity within the group. It would
not be acceptable, however, to show disrespect for other faiths or
to attempt to "mission" the other Troops. The Scouts are encouraged
to learn about the beliefs of other scouts and share their beliefs
with others as long as there is no, "My {God|Church|Faith} is better
than yours." involved.

>How does that sound, guys?
>
I'm with you in The Spirit, Todd. It is my hope that you will find
Scouting to be a positive force for your young person's social
moral, physical and religious development.
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet
From: wizzard@wam.umd.edu (The Wizzard)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: OA
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:48:13 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

>   Regarding OA elections being a popularity contest, I'd have to disagree
>somewhat.  I will admit that there are some troops where the elections are
>a popularity contest, but most of the time the troops do a good job in choosing
>scouts for the OA.
>
>   My election serves as a case.  My troop had not really been very OA oriented
>for several years (we had been in upheaval for a while after our longtime
>Scoutmaster passed away), until another OA eligible scout and I asked to make
>sure that an election be held.
>
>   There were three people eligible for election... the troop SPL, myself (
>the ASPL) and a scout in the leadership corps, who was not a very active 
>scout (who was probably more popular than I was), but was a good friend of 
>the ASM who was basically running the troop.
>
>   Despite some not very hidden attempts to rig the election in the favor of
>the not very active scout, it turned out that he lost and received very
>few votes, while I and the SPL were elected.  
>
>   So, although elections are sometimes popularity contests (or almosted 
>rigged by the adult leaders (I saw an even more blatant case while running
>an election a year or two later)), the scouts usually do pick the best 
>scouts in an election.
>

This election rigging is DEFINITELY against what scouting stands for.  Scouts
AND scouters alike should be TRUSTWORTHY.

In our OA chapter, the elections are nearly impossible to rig.  The way our
OA works is that in order to have an OA election, the troop must contact
the chapter and request that a couple of the members from the election
committee come to the troop meeting and hold the elections.  These OA 
representatives are from other troops in the chapter so that they are
not biased to a single person or group of people.  They explain what the OA
is, what it means to be a member of the OA, and what the troop should look
for in a candidate.  Then they pass out the ballots, the scouts select who 
they want, and the ballots are returned to the OA representatives for 
counting.  This procedure seems to work great with an extremely small chance
of rigging the election.

As for being a popularity contest, my experiances show me that usually this
does not occur.  In my case, there were 10 possible candidates (including
me) and I was the only one selected.  I would not consider myself a popular
person, mainly because I was only in the troop for a year after I transferred
from a different troop when I was elected.  4 or 5 of the other candidates
I felt were more popular than me.

Signed,
  Shawn Scoles
  Eagle Class of 1988
  ASM of troop 299, Hyattsville, MD
From: montgojw@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (II Jerry Montgomery)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: test
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:57:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Sep29.165723.21601
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology


This is a test
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Can the Knot be carried forward to Boy
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:21:58 GMT
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando

In article 21647@cbnewsl.cb.att.com, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>There is a "knot" patch that's sewn above one of the pockets (and unless
>I see my son's uniform, I won't know which one) that signifies that a
>religious award was earned.  I believe the knot signifies one award, and
>if a boy has two (like the Cub Scout and Boy Scout award), he' supposed
>to wear two of the pin-on stars on either side of the patch.

It is a silver square knot on a purple background. The Cub fixture is
a miniature Cub emblem (gotta microscope?). The Boy Scout fixture is
a miniature Boy Scout emblem (like the tenderfoot badge.

I don't recall seeing any provision for multiple awards in the same program
(ie God and Me, God and Family (protestant) while in Cubs). If I can remember
I'll check when I get home.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson                              Martin Marietta E,I & M Group
mwilson@orl.mmc.com                      Mail Point 170
Phone: (407)356-6386                     P.O. Box 555837
Fax:   (407)436-5482                     Orlando, FL, 32855-5837
My opinions are my opinions, Martin Marietta can speak for itself.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Summary: You don't award it. His faith does.
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:34:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.193917.8306@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!

Todd,
  I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it you
don't have anything to do with awarding religious awards. These are
awarded by someone appointed by his faith to do this. The Cub simply
informs you that  he  is working on or has received the award. I feel
that as a Scout Leader you must respect his right to practice his faith
as he sees it. If you can not do this you should have another talk
with the Chartering Organization about being a Scout Leader.

-- 

Donald R. Newcomb
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet
From: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Cub Scout Leaders
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:28:10 GMT
Reply-To: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com
Organization: G.M. Research and Environmental Staff

In article 63770002@hpcc01.corp.hp.com, petruno@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Pat Petruno) writes:
|>I'm looking for help.  Does anyone else have problems recruiting leaders
|>for dens.  We have plenty of kids.
|>


This is a perrenial problem, according to everyone I talk
to around here.  Things are a bit better at the boys scout level
since boys (and hence their parents) are in the program longer.
But in many cub packs, the leaders turn over completely every year 
or two. This means that there is little continuity and that you are 
always looking for new leaders.

When it comes to  finding den leaders, my personal experience is
that it always comes down to saying "if we don't get a volunteer,
there won't be a Wolf/Bear/Webelos Den." 

For some reason, many people look at cub scouts as a babysitting 
service that they get for free. That is one reason why the
Y's Indian Guides/Princesses program is (IMHO) a more effective
program for the younger kids - it is based on a covenant that
the parents will take part and many of the activities are
parent/child.


		Bob Haar
		Chartered Organization Representative,  Troop and Pack 188
		    BSA, Clinton Valley Council, Pontiac, Michigan, USA. 
		Ordeal member, Chippewa Lodge #29, WWW



---
	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research and Environmental Staff
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: eam@phx.mcd.mot.com (Ed Mohrman)
Subject: Re: Clipart
Organization: Motorola Computer Group, Tempe, Az.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:14:57 GMT

>From: wizzard@wam.umd.edu (The Wizzard)
>Subject: Scouting Clipart   1/16
>Message-ID: <1992Sep22.035807.22638@wam.umd.edu>
>Sender: usenet@wam.umd.edu (USENET News system)
>Nntp-Posting-Host: rac3.wam.umd.edu
>Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
>References: <1992Sep22.035723.22546@wam.umd.edu>
>Distribution: na
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1992 03:58:07 GMT
>Lines: 1025
>
>In article <1992Sep22.035723.22546@wam.umd.edu> wizzard@wam.umd.edu (The Wizzard
>) writes:
>>Subject: Scouting ClipArt  0/16: Description
>>Distribution: usa
>>
>>This ted clip art including over 100 merit badges, all 7 ranks, palms,
>>and several special awards.  UnZIPped the files are around 6MB totals.
>> is a .ZIP file over 650K containing 140+ .TIF images of BSA
>

I successfully pulled these files off the net. They look good. Thanks

I use alot of art scanned in from Scout publications. But I wanted more
that was eye catching and concerning various event and outing subjects.
I looked in a number of stores for clipart books to use in Scouting
newsletters, etc. The best I found was "Cartoon Clipart for Youth Leaders"
by Ron Wheeler. It is published by Baker Book House of Grand Rapids Mi, 49516.
It is ISBN 0-8010-9682-0. I got it at a Christian book store. It is aimed
at church youth group leaders, but alot of it can be easily applied to
Scouting activities.

I have scanned some of it into TIF format. I am willing to email what
I have to anyone who wants it. I am reluctant to post it to the net because
of copyright issues. The copyright in the book says:

"Local Churches may clip and publish cartoons in pulications circulated
among members of their church without securing permission. Publication in 
denominational and general religious periodicals is prohibited."

If you are satisfied that you are meeting the above copyright, then I will
email the files to you. I think the spirit of the copyright is that each
group that uses the art buys a book.


Ed
From: petruno@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Pat Petruno)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:34:25 GMT
Subject: Cub Scout Leaders
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.scouting

I'm looking for help.  Does anyone else have problems recruiting leaders
for dens.  We have plenty of kids.

Pat Petruno



Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mayne@phi.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 21:05:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.190422.5044@linus.mitre.org> edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) writes:
>
>I would much prefer to see that the troops character is in the broadest
>possible terms regardless of how many troops are nearby. 

I agree. The respect and tolerance which is supposed to go along with
"A scout is reverent" is more than a non-discrimination policy by a
non-sectarian organization. It is a positive value which is at the
heart of scouting and should not be omitted by troops on a local
option basis. I concede that it goes against some people's religious
beliefs, whether right or wrong.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Subject: this is a test
Reply-To: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 27 Sep 92 15:24:16 EST

Hello Scouters

Just a short note to let you all know that I'm hooked up usenet gateway
through CRS in Toronto...I'm a Cub Leader from 21st Burlington Pack as
well as a Scouter in training for the Troop next year....

I hope to here from you all and see how things are done on the other
side of the world....

Don

don.poaps@canrem.com

YIS

Baloo
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 15:27:24 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: na
Keywords: Cub usa policy faith religion bsa

In article <1992Oct6.014742.27216@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>>I am very tolerant until others try to take away my rights.  When
>>that occurs, you have broken the law, literally, as in the US
>>Constitution,
>[...]
>
>The Constitution doesn't have much to do with it. As interpreted by
>the Supreme Court, it says that public schools can not exclude
>atheists or Zoroastrians. It does not say that the BSA can't exclude
>atheists (and they do) or Zoroastrians (which they don't). In fact the
>Constitutions guarantee of freedom of association means that the
>government must leave the BSA's membership policy alone.
 I was talking more general here when I wrote that, but in context it fit.  
pat of the BSA's policy for Reverent has been and hopefully will remain 
one of learning about other religions and being respectful of them.  
It does not mean accepting them as your own, or adopting one, but when 
a leader then turns and promotes one religion over another, he/she
is overstepping their bounds and is infringing upon my freedom of 
religion, as based in both BSA policy and traditions as well as the US 
Constitution, which gives me the right of having my own religion.  In the 
context above I was talking about an individual infringing upon that 
right.  I think we are in agreement on that issue.  Please inform me
if I am incorrect in that assumption.  As far as the membership goes, 
that's a whole 'nother issue, and not one I really feel like 
rehashing at the moment.  

Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88
B4/5 f+ w (c+d)v g++ k+(+)v s(-/+)v m e r(+) p
>
>- Carl
>--
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:44:15 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.052605.6685@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>>As a Christian,
>>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.
>Before I answer the question itself, I feel I need to address the tone of
>Mr. Stevens' posting.  I consider it blatantly anti-Semitic, anti-Islam,
>anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, and anti-any and every other religion that
>Scouts worldwide observe and are encouraged to observe.

Why is it bigoted to be anti-all-of-those, but fine if it's anti-atheist?
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Subject: jamboree on the air
Reply-To: "don poaps" <don.poaps@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:33:46 EST

Hi there
I'll have to get info from my Leader Magazine.. The problem is that I
lend it to a friend but I do have another scource but I have to wait
until I can get into the BBS....

Baloo
21st Burlington Cub Pack
Burlington Ont.
 don.poaps@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: OA
From: bschroeder@desire.wright.edu
Date: 4 Oct 92 18:01:00 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

> I am a current Life Scout from Troop 18 in Baltimore, MD.  We are a unique
> Jewish Troop that are relatively new, and I am one of the first joining
> members.  I would like to explain my expiriences on my OA ordeal.
> 
> I went to Broadcreek Scout reservation with 2 of my good friends who were
> also going for ordeal.  When they split us up into clans, is when trouble
> started.  As you probabvly know, food is limited on the weekend, so they
> ask if there's any reason we can't eat the food they provide us with.  I
> told my Alangamat (spelling?) that I couldn't eat the ham because I keep
> kosher.  From then on, he would not stop insulting, making fun, and
> mouthing off to me the whole time.  Of course, we weren't supposed to be
> speaking, but it seemed that our alangamat really didn't care about that. 
> When my friends and I met up, we all said the same thing; that their is
> way to much anti-semetism going on.  This created a big problem.  First of
> all, their is no room for ANY antisemetism in the world of scouting, even
> more so in Order of the Arrow.  After the weekend, we ended up having a
> meeting with the chapter chief, my scoutmaster, the camp director, and few
> other VIP's.  It turned out ok, and I ended up getting apology notes from
> all the alangamats, and other scouts who caused trouble.
> 
> This weekend really bothers me, because I expected the best if the best
> kids to be in OA, but I learned differently.  As a 14 year old scout, I
> know that OA elections are much more a popularity contest, than meaningful
> elections.  What are your feelings on this event?

	Just out of curiosity, how old was your elongomat?  In my lodge, they
get some kids who have not even been OA members for a year as elongomats, and
these kids are not ready for the responsibility of being an elongomat.  Last
fall, I was an elongomat and had an "co-elongomat", and I would have been much
better off without him.  He spent the whole weekend talking to some of the
other people in the clan.  If the lodges would have better trained elongomats,
and ones who have been in the OA for a while, things like that would not happen
nearly as much as they do.

						Brian
						bschroeder@desire.wright.edu
 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting