HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dhardin@BBN.COM (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: bad luck?
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:41:53 GMT
Reply-To: dhardin@BBN.COM (Dawn Hardin)
Distribution: na
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

williams@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Tim Williams) writes:

>	 I have spent most of my life having things "falling in my lap"
>and have just recently been pondering the possibility of magick or 
>excellent subconcious  processing. Not having communication with a HGA
>I have had to rely on "hunchs". What has me puzzled is an uncharacteristic
>string of bad luck that has recently occured. Long waiting periods for
>my NeXT toy, cancelled contracts, defective equipment, erupting sewer
>pipes, .... I think you get the drift. Has anyone else had periods of
>bad luck surrounded by years of good choices? Why? 

God, yes.  Everything that could have gone wrong this past year has, 
some things in life threatening ways.  I've heard people say that this 
can happen when someone starts magick working, for the following reasons:

1)  Things in your life that are inconsistent with your real goals start
to fall apart, like you lose that job that isn't what you really wanted
to do anyway.

2)  Bad feelings that you're hiding reach out and bite you in the ass,
like deep down you don't believe you really deserve anything nice and so
when you start flexing your will, not-nice things start happening to 
you.

3)  You don't properly ground energies that you bring up, so you walk
around exhausted and half sick, encountering all the disasters that
happen to people with only half of a working brain.

(I can think of some others:  the fundies really did curse you, Cthulhu
took a hankering for your pretty face, that nice incense you're burning
causes brain damage, etc.  but those are the ones that seemed least paranoid
and most worth considering.)

Seems to me if the bad luck is really housecleaning (I think mine was)
then you're stuck living through it.  But then, I'm just repeating things
that I heard here, so maybe someone who's more knowledgeable has something 
to say?

Dawn
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: 4747710@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Mini book review: Kaplan's "Bahir" & "Meditations on the Tarot"
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 23:38:05 GMT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------

>Meditations on the Tarot is remarkable.  Not only is it written from a
>mystical Christian point of view (which is my "home framework"), it brings in
>quite a lot of material from other sources, including the Kabbalah, Sufism,
>and so on.  I strongly recommend it to anyone who is working with the Tarot
>or Hermeticism in general, including people who think that "Christian Magick"
>is a contradiction in terms.  This book may surprise you...
>Peace,
>Amanda Walker

Every so often I 'find' a book that has a permanent place in my library.
"Meditations" is one of them. It isn't the kind of book you can easily skim
through.  It is heavy duty reading that takes time to absorb. Took me
about one week per chapter (each chapter devoted to one of the 22 Keys).
Then went back and re-read it again with a new perspective. Second reading
had just as strong impact as the first.

Amanda's use of understatement is superb. "This book may surprise you..." :-)

I've been lurking here in the background for about 6 months.

Peace, joy and love.

IONA   (Iowan Johnston)
____________________________________________
(Some day I'll get a standardized signature)


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: john@physiol.su.OZ.AU (John Mackin)
Subject: Liber 888
Organization: Department of Physiology, University of Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:59:41 GMT

Not too long ago, someone posted a short article asking about Liber 888
(they laboriously wrote it out in roman numerals).  The article expired
before I got around to this, so I don't know who it was or else I'd
send them this by mail.  Anyway, according to the list in _The Holy
Books of Thelema_, 888 was an essay on Christianity which was incorporated
into `The Gospel According to Saint Bernard Shaw'.  The list in
_Magick_ says that that's unpublished, and I don't know of any
`proper' publication of it (as in, typeset and printed as a `real
book'), but it has been put out by Stellar Visions.

For those who may not know, Stellar Visions is a company that
puts out stuff by Crowley that is otherwise hard to get.  Their
`books' are photocopies (reasonable quality) bound in simple
plastic bindings -- not attractive, but practical and reasonably
priced.  I know they did `The Gospel According to Saint Bernard Shaw'
because I have a copy of their edition of it.  It is a copy of
typescript, and is not particularly easy to read, but is OK.

In 1987, their address was:

	Stellar Visions
	808 Post Street
	San Francisco CA 94109

I have no idea if they are still in business, or if that address is
still correct.

-- 
John Mackin <john@physiol.su.oz.au>
`If you've got no chin, it's a real mistake to grow a moustache.' -SPP
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:47:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <JOSHUA.92Aug18205813@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:


>In article <a_!n##+.friday@netcom.com> friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin) 
>writes:

>    how much moola did you spend to become a master practitioner and
>    trainer (moola == lucre, coin, the long green etc)?

>josh

Well, lets see:  About $2,500 in 1981 for a 23-day Practitioner training
course over 7 month period (I got back much more than that on a consulting
gig I did for IBM in which I used my newfound skills to solve a problem
that had stymied everybody else for several months; I couldn't have done
it without those skills...wouldn't have even tried).

Then, in 1983, I took another intensive course of two weeks duration for,
as I remember, about $2,500.  Between those two programs, and during the
mid 80s I attended several conferences, meetings, short seminars, met with
colleagues.  The outcome of that was Master Practitioner status.

Richard Bandler appointed me a Trainer, based on demonstrated skills and
accomplishments (no further fees) in 1988.

Sufficient answer, josh?
P.S.:  Did you attend college/university?  How much did YOU pay?

-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                   "If a miracle happens in your vicinity--
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                            take credit for it!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Unity
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:24:45 GMT


Has anyone put together a synthesis of the things that work?  NOT what beliefs,
rituals,... the various magicks have in common but what parts that do something
are held in common?


--
James W. Meritt:  m23364@mwunix.mitre.org - or - jmeritt@rod.mitre.org
The opinions above are mine.  If anyone else wants to share them, fine.
They may say so if they wish. The facts "belong" to noone and simply are.
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:43:21 GMT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Thu 20 Aug 92  5:11, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) wrote:

>This post has Thelemic overtones, and I mean that in the most respectful
>manner.  I wonder if you could define "Thelemite" for us so that we can
>better understand one another?  :)

>Love is the Law.
>Gerald

 BD> I would never be willing to define Thelemite, since I would never,
ever,
 BD> wish to be called such.  I don't like any work of Crowley's that I
have
 BD> ever read, including the various holy books.  I don't see what in this
 BD> post could possibly be interpreted as Thelemic.  What did you see as
 BD> Thelemic?

That you chose your own path, and question all things; and have a tendency
(from what I have read of your posts) to research things out before making
your mind up one way or another.

 BD> I may then be able to relate where I learned that attitude, which will
be
 BD> someplace other than Crowley.  There is nothing truely original in
 BD> Crowley's attitudes, after all.

What I was trying to emphasize is that Thelema has very little to do with
Crowley, and that calling yourself a Thelemite is not declaring to the
universe that you are a Crowley groupie.  There is this false belief among
that occult communities that Thelemites are Crowley wanna-be's.

Crowley was not the first to coin the term.

 BD> (Of course, there is nothing truely original in anyones
attitudes--"there
 BD> is nothing new under the sun".)

True.

Love is the Law.
Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@cunix4.Prime.COM (Jason R. Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Tree of Life (English) and Unicursal Hexagram
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:13:39 GMT

Interesting. 

I note perhaps another, admittedly perhaps less thought-out tree.
One in which Daath is taken into account, and connected
to Kether, Binah, Chokmah, and Tiphereth. In my mind, I had to 
project this on a 3d plane, to allow the paths from, for example, 
Kether to Tiphereth to remain intacta, etc. However, the path 
denotions are significantly different, and have never been able 
to find a pattern which allows the same interperations as
the lightning bolt/serpent which takes this into account. 
Admittedly, I haven't been motivated to think about this
in depth, but one who has the time or motivation
might wish to walks down this avenue. Or, feel free
to ignore it, as you will. I'm interested in hearing
any positive outcomes of this thought process.

Actually, thinking on it as I was writing this note,
perhaps changing the paths from Daath to Binah and Chokmah
to Geburah and Chesed has equal merit. Or lack thereof. 

Have fun. 

-- 
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Unity
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:22:20 GMT

m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:


>Has anyone put together a synthesis of the things that work?  NOT what beliefs,
>rituals,... the various magicks have in common but what parts that do something
>are held in common?

Well, this presumes that what we call magic is one entity.  I don't accept that
premise.  I believe that there are many different magics, and that they have
different "things that work".  See my draft of the first part of my essay on
taxonomy for some of my basic thinking on this.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: god@cats.ucsc.edu (Daniel Andrew Osher)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Necronomicon <-- Legit?
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:37:05 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu


>Would it be too much to ask if other readers here would share at least the
>names of their favorite grimoires?  


For me, that's easy. I don't have any. I tend to take my working methods from 
several available sources. 
Thought the one I am currently reading is Liber Null with it's companion
Psychonaut.
Interesting stuff. Thought I must say, it is hardly what I was expecting from
a book purporting to be chaos magick. There is just a bit too much left over
from the IOT's supposed roots in the A.A. and other Crowleyean derivatives.
In short, it ends up sounding to me like all of the other magickal texts I have
read. It merely takes a more general view towards attaining the requisite mind-
set. (A distinct bonus in my book.)

In the words of the mage of marvel,  "'Nuff said!"


The opinions expressed herein are those of Paul Ludwig, rather than those of
Daniel Osher.
From: williams@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Tim Williams)
Subject: Re: more mundanities...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:05:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.180405.9391@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>[As the driver climbs out of the cockpit and leaves the pit crew to worry
>
>This is an odd example. I have a history of things falling in my lap.  I
>made no effort to 'invoke' a sewing machine specifically by traditional
>magickal methods.  Again, I made plans to get something by one set of 
>means, and it appeared by another.  It is personally unimportant to me
>if anyone else considers this to be magick.  I'm bemused by the involvement
>of my HGA.  That's much more magick than the end result, in a way, to
>me.
>

	I have spent most of my life having things "falling in my lap"
and have just recently been pondering the possibility of magick or 
excellent subconcious  processing. Not having communication with a HGA
I have had to rely on "hunchs". What has me puzzled is an uncharacteristic
string of bad luck that has recently occured. Long waiting periods for
my NeXT toy, cancelled contracts, defective equipment, erupting sewer
pipes, .... I think you get the drift. Has anyone else had periods of
bad luck surrounded by years of good choices? Why? 

Tim
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Is Magick worth the effort??
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:48:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <QeZImm_00WCS0B7oJ3@andrew.cmu.edu>, kc2z+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin W. Cooney) writes...
>I'm back from vacation, and I finally caught-up on alt.magic.  :)
> 
>oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>> You can refer to my experiences as interesting, and I do not consider 
>> them to be out of the ordinary either.
>> 
>> If I were to post these experiences and call them magick, it 
>> would not surprise me if someone else responded that they were 
>> not.
> 
>Would you call your expericances magic?  I'm just curious.

I haven't decided yet.

- Peggy -
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Crowley's Significance?
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:22:25 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <16r2h5INNc3u@early-bird.think.com>, cward@Think.COM (Christopher Ward) writes...
>In article <cstollen.6107@meltdown.chi.il.us>, cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen) writes:
>|>   I definitely include "the grateful dead as a mystical experience
>What you appear to be looking for is alt.rebelion and/or alt.drugs

Ok Christopher... lets see how much magick you know.  

As a chaos magickian of the Grateful Dead tradition, I hereby challenge you 
to a test... a magickial duel.  Let's see just how good you are... lets 
have a demonstration of what you can do besides talk, ok?
From: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: IS THIS REAL?
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) 

Is this for real?  What I mean is, Is magic for real? DOes it really
exist? Can a person control the elements, or anything, anything not
explained by science.  I have always wanted to believe in magic, but
everything and everyone around me laughs at the idea of the
supernatural.  I really must know if magic is for real.  I say this
because in all probability none of you will ever know me, but I dream of
it(magic).
From: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: IS THIS REAL?
Keywords: n
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:07:45 GMT
Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon

In article <1992Aug14.172122.9589@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (My name is...) writes:

>
>In article <1267.726.uupcb@factory.com>, harish.reddy@factory.com (Harish Reddy) writes...
>>Is this for real?  What I mean is, Is magic for real? DOes it really
>>exist? Can a person control the elements, or anything, anything not
>>explained by science.  I have always wanted to believe in magic, but
>>everything and everyone around me laughs at the idea of the
>>supernatural.  I really must know if magic is for real.  I say this
>>because in all probability none of you will ever know me, but I dream of
>>it(magic).
>
>Yes.. it's for real.                                                                                                

And the laughing is easy to deal with compared to some reactions :-)


-- 
John Martin                                        johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu
Institute of Neuroscience,   University of Oregon,    Eugene, OR,    97402
From: cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Enochian fonts
Date: 18 Aug 92 10:43:50 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster


I have just uploaded the Enochian fonts produced by someone else for the IBM.
However, these fonts are now in a form usable in LaTeX as shown in the example
file included. They are reasonably portable, as far as I've been able to check,
so there shouldn't be any problems there.

The IBM format fonts are in ZIP format, the LaTeX ones are in compressed tar
format. 

Enjoy.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     *            	V.
                        cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
 *	 *              acarty@cs.strath.ac.uk

   *   *		"Convictions cause convicts"

What is real??                           - Principia Discordia
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: I Ching and Magick Squares
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 09:24:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9208.18 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Steve Cranmer writes:

Not that I am really *recommending* this source, but Jose Arguelles' book
_Earth_Ascending_ contains a similar 'exploration' of the I Ching and
magic squares.  He also includes ancient Mayan calendrics/mathematics.


Response:

I'll have to check it out, even though I have skirted his tomes with a
10' pole, in general.


Steve:

Here's something you can try - based on stuff in that book.  Try to trace
'lineal' figures through the magic squares, starting at 1 and weaving your
way through to 64, or whatever.  You come out with some neat-looking
shapes suggestive of mandalas.  Hmmm, I'm curious to see what would happen
if you trace out the original King Wen sequence, but with the square's
correspondences in the 'Leibnitz' order (i.e. trace: 2,10,13,46,24,...).
Hmmm... I think I'm going to try it!


Response:

This makes a LOT of sense.  I'll try it too.  I'm not familiar enough
with Hermetic magick to have known about the lineal figures.  Thanks for
informing me about them.  More to play with.


Steve:

Why 'Leibnitz,' by the way?  I'm not familiar with any work he did with
binary number systems.  Hmmm, 'Boolean' sounds more like it to me.


Response:

Hellmut Wilhelm, in _Change_ (see Appendix III) references Leibnitz as
one of the first of the Western philosophers who recognized the binary
and mathematical character of the I Ching.  Wilhelm seems to think that
Leibnitz originated Base-2.  Perhaps someone else could verify this.
I have no background in the history of mathematics and don't feel like
researching it.

I have found very little  
information about the history of arrangments.  If you know of some
references that would be of help in this regard, I'd like to see them.
They may have some information which would inspire a solution to the
first problem of deciphering King Wen's logic.


Steve:

(By the way, the reason I am hesitant to 'heartily' recommend Arguelles is
 his penchance to be kind of a publicity hound - remember the 'Harmonic
 Convergence'? :-) Also his predictions of exact dates for worldwide
 phenomena smacks of tabloid psychic predictions.  He writes some neat
 stuff, if you take it with a grain of salt....)


Response:

I understand completely.  My attitude is similar.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Frater I Nigris (666)
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:36:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <83950122@otter.hpl.hp.com>, cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes...
>Some questions open up a can of worms; sometimes the discussion
>winds down into a nit-picking and opinionated stalemate, and sometimes

That's a waste.  Though concurrence, however pleasant, is vastly 
overrated and more often than not restricts inquiry.

>the worms just keep on coming - it's worms all the way, to paraphrase
>a famous comment about Indian cosmology. The discussion about `magic'
>and `doing stuff' has opened a large can of worms, and I thought life
>might be simpler if I talked about causality, because I thought I understood
>what the word meant, but Le Grand was right to point out.....

If you say its a large can of worms then why do you have such a 
firm opinion about whether or not unknown causal events are 
involved in "everyday" magic(k)?

Its not at all clear on what your opinions are based.  No need to be 
rational, logical or consistent here; I'm not a stickler for 
these.  If its intuition that's OK too. 

[stuff deleted]
>	The point I am trying to make is that far from physics throwing
>light on causality, we find some really hard problems. At a microscopic
>level, with one very esoteric exception, we find complete time symmetry
>(or more technically, PCT symmetry). This isn't "new physics", something
>really weird and wonderful. We are going back at least one hundred years
>or more. It is hard to talk about causality because all you have to do
>is run the film backwards and all the little flags have to be swapped over.
>There is a macroscopic "arrow of time", and a great deal has been written
>on trying to tie together macroscopic irreversability and microscopic
>time symmetry, but as far as I know this is still one of those open-ended
>areas where physics looks more than a little untidy.

I think Leo's definition of magick is fitting "Magick is all the 
things that _work_ that aren't science."  Yet.  I added the 
"yet". :)

>Colin 

- Peggy -