From: farrell@mercury.cis.ohio-state.edu (christopher k farrell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Classic Games
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:58:40 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <1992Nov13.161315.7962@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> brian@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Brian Youse) writes:
>Gene writes...
>
>In article <1e0dffINN64f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cg533@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James Eugene Alloway) writes:
>>
>>
>>1)I think Diplomacy is good, but for sheer diplomacy, I prefer:
>> REPUBLIC of ROME.  Greed, nobility, religion, and world dominance.  What more
>
>	Well, i've heard a LOT of people praise this game, so I thought i'd
>offer a differing position 8).

	Sorry to hear you didn't like it, Brian.  Usually I find ASL junkies
really like RoR.

>	First, it took 30 min to an hour to explain the game mechanics to 
>us novices, and then I had *NO* idea of what to do, only how it was done. Not
>a simple game to pick up the strategy/nuances.  The guy who explained did a
>good job (as he always does explaining new games) so I doubt that was the 
>problem. 

	That is typical.  You've just got to follow a long for a game and
see how it plays.  Reading the rules helps a *lot*; usually the guy who's
explaining it has either missed or misread somthing.

	There's just too much there, both in terms of raw quantity and in
terms of different things you can do, to absorb in a single explanation 
session.  So many different events and intruige cards, if nothing else!
Never mind just dealing with all the procedural stuff (no, influence does *NOT*
affect votes, knights get you a talent of income, etc).  Great stuff, but
difficult to absorb in one 30-minute lecture.  You need to be a little
patient.

>	I quickly jumped out to the lead gaining a "personality" card. Some
>guy who was a good military leader (name escapes me).  Then, both punic wars
>and some other wars (macedonian?) appear.  They need my military ability,
>so I get elected dictator so I can fight the wars.  Quickly, I gained HUGE
>influance points, (something like 28 or 29) and was very close to winning.
>THEN, I sat there.  Who would help me, vote on my side, accept my ideas.  Even
>if/when I offered GREAT deals to people, they couldn't help me or i'd win.

	P. Cornelies Scipio Africanus was probably his name, and it sounds
like you made a HUGE mistake ... you played the early republic first.  I know,
I know, they reccomend the early republic, but I'll be blunt: for novices, it
sucks.  Until you *really* know what you're doing, you just get dragged along
with the events and hope to god that Rome doesn't die (unless you're badly 
behind.  There are never any real options, never any real opportunities to get
some real backstabbing going on since the Republic is in perpetual and very 
serious danger.  This and PC Scipio is far too powerful, since he opposes the 
two major wars, and is the temporary RC in any case (10 free influence in 
reward for being alive).

	Play either the middle or late republic.  The Middle is much calmer,
with plenty of chances for diplomacy and no real threat to the Republic 
(although it can and has fallen if the players are *too* casual about wars).
It's got all of the elements of the game in reasonable quantities (a few
provinces, a few reasonable statesmen, etc...).  Nothing too powerful, either
foreign or domestic.  So, I think it yeilds probably the best game (although
the Late is probably more fun.  Just gotta have Julius Caesar someday!).
The Late Republic has a lot of names that any educated person will recognise,
and therefore can be a lot easier to play.  Plus, it's really "wild and crazy",
and the Republic should *never* fall except due to gross negligence (or a
sucessful Civil War).

	So... AH did themselves a real dis-service by pushing the Early 
Republic, because it (justifiably) deters a lot of players who might be
facinated by the later decks.  Don't get me wrong, after playing 10 or so
games, the Early is now a good time as well, and a chunk shorter; but the
Middle and Late are more enjoyable and better balanced.

>	To sum up, THE BIGGEST WASTE OF TIME I'VE EVER SPENT GAMING!  I was
>bored, the voting systems seemed rather stupid, and IT WAS NOT FUN!  I was
>winning (if that makes a game fun for you) and it still wasn't fun.

	Sorry to hear that, but that's a pretty harsh judgement based on one
playing!  Screaming all-caps even.  Come on Brian, before you condemn it that
strongly in public, try it again; maybe read the rules, and try a later 
republic.  Now I won't complain if you say 'no, thanks', but you might want to
reserve the "it's not fun" judgement.

>	Overall, I wish that the six of us had played Civ, Adv. Civ, 
>Diplomacy, or A Mighty Fortress.  Hell, we could have played poker and it
>would have been a better use of time.

	Gack.  Not ACiv.  Civ maybe.  I'm not real sure how I feel about those
games anymore.  RoR is more interactive, players have more options, and the
winner tends to be based on who plays best (which is certainly more than I
can say for ACiv).  Again, with the proviso that if you play the Early 
Republic you should know what you're doing.

	The best way for me to explain RoR to novices is:  It's a six-player,
diplomatic game, with more player-interaction than any other game; you
never have to wait too long to do somthing; you have more options for "stuff"
to do than any other game; and it has far more historical flavour than any
game iof it's ilk I've seen.  The downside: it's also the most complex game
of it's type, in terms of both rules (even at only 9(12)? pages), and game
complexity.  However, if you take the time to learn the system (I'd say 
two games and two hours with the rules), it's very rewarding and a whole lot
of fun; it's also not too long (the Middle Republic checking in at about 6 
hours, early about 4-5, the late more Civ-length at 7 or so).

							Chris

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