HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 17:50:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.041143.0156866@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>Apparently Alan Stein ignores reality, or wishes to.  Hamas kidnapped
>the soldier, asked for the release of Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen, israel
>did a sweeping operation in Gaza ignoring the deadline set by Hamas,
>then Hamas acted because IDF narrowed down on them.  WHY DID ISRAEL
>IGNORE THE DEADLINE?  THEY COULD'VE RELEASED the sheikh and got
>back their soldier.

The old line: We killed because the Israelis made us do it.
Have you no shame at all?

I heard that an autopsy indicated that Toledano was murdered well
before the deadline.  Hamas never had any real intention of trading
hostages for prisoners.

>Not all.  Just like there are israelis that say the borders of
>israel spans 1/2 of the arab world 

The only Israelis you might have met who hold of this view, 
you met in your regular visits to the Loony Bin.

Israelis want to control ISRAEL, about 2% (TWO %) of the Middle East,
not 50%.

>in Lebanon, Syria, ..etc; those people got replaced by European invadors,
>right?   Those countries don't want foreigners either.

"Foreigners"?  Talk about Arab brotherhood!  

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: israel & hamas
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 29 Dec 92 00:45:47 CST

In article <1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> In article 19859@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
		

		[...]

> 
> That's funny: Stein vs CPR. The clash of the intellectual giants!
> 

		[...]


> It proves nothing, but here's a little quote for you:

		[...]

 
>    -- Limor Linyat, member of the Likud Central Committee,
>       Tikkun, Sep/Oct 1991, p14.


	It takes a real intelectual giant to end the clash of
	two others, doesn't it?

	It's Livnat, BTW. I'm afraid you can add the MP title
	in front of her name by now.

 
> Brendan.


Noam
 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24533 talk.politics.soviet:10150 soc.culture.greek:11988 soc.culture.europe:10949 soc.rights.human:4714 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10362
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:33:46 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec21.193445.29576@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
~	The fact of the matter is they are all supporters of HAMAS.

This statement simply has not been proved. In fact one of the expulsees
was simply a butcher serving meat to one of the other expulsees - he
was just rounded up with the rest by the soldiers.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23938 talk.politics.soviet:9922 soc.culture.greek:11793 soc.culture.europe:10727 soc.history:10332 soc.culture.soviet:11447 soc.culture.bulgaria:1996
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bulgaria
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Nazi Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 21:41:19 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <199212210416.AA23437@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>(shivering at the thought of an Arxid-less Christmas)

I certainly hope not, at any rate. Germany had shown interest in 
nationalities, as a tool to dismember the Russian empire, back in 
World War I. In the time between the two World Wars, expelled leaders 
of Soviet nationalities were lobbying the capitals of European powers 
to gain support for their respective causes. Already in 1936, the SS 
Headquarters (Reichssicherheitshauptamt) had created bureaus (Vertrauensstellen)
to contact emigrants and oversee their activities. The Vertrauensstellen
for the Caucasus was led by the Armenian Deirajr Froundjian and the
Georgian Lado Achmeteli.[1] 

Shortly after the occupation of Warsaw and Paris, the German Abwehr
(Secret Service) assumed ties with exiled leaders of diverse Soviet
nationalities, among them Armenian Dashnags.[2] One of the leaders
of the Dashnaktzoutun, the aforementioned General Dro 'the butcher'
(Drastamat Kanajan) began working relationship with the Nazis around 
that time.

[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), 'Zwischen Hakenkreuz und
    Sowjetstern,' (Droste Verlag Duesseldorf 1971), p.37
[2] Ibid., p. 84.
 
Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:07:09 IST
From: Hank Nussbacher <HANK@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Messiah on the way

The day Shulamit Aloni votes for the transfer of 418 Arabs - is the day
that the Messiah will arrive.

:-)
Hank Nussbacher
Karnei Shomron
Israel
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24133 soc.culture.arabic:5940
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 27 Dec 92 03:55:01 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

<1992Dec26.162146.968@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Killing, however, merely
>to avenge injustices of the past is not reasonable and is
>counterproductive. 

	Hamas begs to differ.


-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24479 soc.culture.arabic:6140 soc.culture.jewish:24377
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Date: 1 Jan 1993 15:12:33 +1100
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1huqvaINN3hq@tyl.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

># I claim the first posting for 1993!

>	Still 1992 where I live.

I am not posting from where you live.

># makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
># >In article <1hrfo6INNpa1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
> 
># >#   Birth places of residents of Jerusalem and Hebron districts in 1905.
>#                     ^ Moslem
 
># >#                        Cities              Villages
># >#   district       Jerusalem  Hebron     Jerusalem  Hebron

># >#   same place        78.0     96.7        93.9     94.8
># >#   other Palestine   10.3      2.5         5.7      4.4 
># >#   not Palestine     11.7      0.8         0.4      0.8

># >#   [U. O. Schmelz, Population characteristics of Jerusalem and Hebron
># >#      districts according to the Ottoman census of 1905, in Ottoman
># >#      Palestine 1800-1914 (G. Gilbar, ed.), (Brill Leiden, 1990).]

># >As we now know due to the deabte over where Yassir Arafat was
># >born, what used to be registered as birth places was not where they
># >were born, but where the births were registered.  Someone born in say
># >Amman who had his birth registered in Jerusalem would be listed as
># >having been born in Jerusalem.  This is the center of the controversy
># >over where Arafat was born since it is how things were done.
 
># How could I have missed this explanation?  Tens of thousands of people 
># in 1905 (twelve years before the Balfour Declaration) conspired to 
># register their births in the wrong place.  As proof of this there is 
># a controversy over the birth place of someone born twelve years 
># AFTER the Balfour Declaration.  The Ottoman registration system had 
># been replaced by the British system in the meantime, but, hell, Arabs
># will be Arabs.  I wish I was as clever as you, David.

>	A nice, typical. ad hominem attack which shows nothing.  Births
>were registered similarly.  

How would you know?  Your comments clearly indicate that you have
no knowledge of the subject.  

>                            As it  births were registered when
>convennient, and not every place had somewhere to register births all
>the time.  In some cases, they were not registered at all so
>assumptions (or whatever you want to call it) were made.

You are just making this up, as will be immediately apparent to
every reader here.  Shall I suggest some references on the Ottoman
registration system?  Oh, I forgot: you must have seen several
such references when you consulted the Schmeltz paper (in order
to avoid making a fool of yourself).  You did consult it, didn't
you, David?

>makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu

Brendan.
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hamas
Date: 1 Jan 93 09:11:57 GMT

<C0518p.AAx@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira):

>In all above examples (most recently Iraq) the answer would be "War is Hell".
>but Israel is not willing to admit it is facing a war of liberation.

	The U.S. killed Panamanian
	soldiers and civilians without giving them due process,
	and this is dismissed with a simple "War is Hell".
	And the Panamanians weren't even trying to destroy
	the U.S.  Go figure.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Palestinian Deportees
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:40:53 GMT


According to the BBC (31-12-92, 0400 UTC) the French foreign minister
has proposed that the UN peacekeeping forces in Lebanon take charge of
the welfare of the 415 Palestinians forced out of the country by Israel.
Yasser Arafat has expressed interest in this proposal.

Such an action would seem, in my opinion, to underscore the illegality
of Israel's action by international law as well as by "moral" law.
Israel does not allow UN peacekeeping troops within its zone of
occupation in Lebanon (and generally flaunts UN actions, in any case).
Furthermore, such an action by the UN would highlight the historical
problem of refugees, exiles, and deportees which has been created by the
formation of Israel, a monolithic, nationalistic regime in a land with a
historically multi-cultural background.

Brad "Ali" Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: POLITICS: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Date: 30 Dec 92 09:35:17 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <bill.725666236@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>
>>Seriously, if you can be provoked to this extreme by an action which really
>>has little effect on your day-to-day life, can't you see the extreme
>>provocation which Israel has had to endure from Hamas?  Kidnappings,
>>murder, a philosophy of war against all Jews - those seem unbearable
>>to me.  How would Britain handle the IRA in such circumstances.
>
> How did Britain handle the zionist terrorists circa WWII?
> (it just seemed to be a closer analogy, or at least a little ironic).



You mean those Jewish bastard Christ killers ?   :-)

Let's see. They hung a few, deported a few hundred (thousand ??) to Eritrea
(sp) in Africa for a couple of years. Nothing special :-)

Better than Britain handles the IRA *freedom fighters* :-)

Better than democratic Amerika handled the Weathermen in the late 1960's.
                            ^

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

>
> --
> {{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
> {{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
> {{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
> {{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Palestinian Deportees
Date: 30 Dec 1992 06:20:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



I have a couple of questions about the recent deportation of the 400+
Palestian refugees.

1. Were these persons convicted of, or confess to, any crimes or actions
   that resulted in the deportation.

2. What is Israeli law on this issue?

Please post any info for me.

Thank you.

-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:24:07 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec17.214707.26971@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.060357.2435100@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>>Do you think those people are throwing rocks out of joy?  Especially,
>>since they know they could get shot and killed right before the
>>rock lands.  IT IS FREEDOM FROM AN OPRESSOR- GOT IT?

>How many times have we seen Arab mothers say that they are proud to
>have borne children who will die in the name of the greater flory of
>Allah?  Perhaps joy has something to do with it, after all.  

That may be true Jake.  Pride does have a lot to do with it.  However,
the point is that Palestinians are not happy living under oppression -
subjected to horrible living conditions and rotting away waiting for
recognition and freedom.  How joyful is it to be robbed of your identity
and stripped completely of social rights and legal justice and discourse?
 
Perhaps you can understand, then, when you see the children in the intifada,
who are standing up for their dignity and self-worth as human beings, that
it is about a message to the world that they are alive and will not accept
the fate that the Israeli government has destined for them.

Anisa

	"Find your sisters and brothers who can hear all the
	truth in what you say.  They can support you when you're
	on your way."	[Shaking The Tree]
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 3 Jan 93 02:59:46 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

[BAR] Alleged role.  It was not proved that they had anything to do with
[BAR] promoting murder, violence or terrorism.  They were not given a fair
[BAR] trial.  As you well know.

What is interresting to note is that since the deportation, there has not
been any attacks like the ones that led to the expulsions. There might be
a few reasons to that.

	I  - Hamas was decapitated by the expulsions.
	II - Hamas fears that there will be more deportations if the killings
	     go on, therefore it is afraid to conduct such activities.
	III- Hamas is preparing some big terrorist attack in retaliation of
	     the deportation.
	IV - All the above are correct.

[BAR] Basalat Ali Raja.

By expelling these people, Jewish and Arab lives have probably been saved even
if 11 Palestinians have been killed in street clashes with IDF soldiers. The
number of "collaborators" killed is usually about that number in 10 days.

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel & hamas
Date: 26 Dec 92 15:35:34 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

 CM> [Was that substantive enough Wayne?  :-)  ]

We'll, let's see.

 CM> As HAMAS murdered Israelis one after another in the three
 CM> weeks leading up to the expulsion of the HAMAS terrorist
 CM> cells, Israel did not once issue an ultimatum threatening
 CM> the peace process.

I think what we've got here is a failure of symmetry. If HAMAS
had been Israel's negotiating partner, and not Husseini's
delegation, then Israel would have done a good deal more than
issue an ultimatum threatening the peace process. And justifiably
so, I might add.

The world expects official national governments like Israel to
behave more responsibly than a fundamentalist cult like HAMAS.

 CM> Does Feisal Husseini's recognition of HAMAS/Jihad as
 CM> "organizations" mean that the PLO is no longer the "sole
 CM> legitimate representative" of Palestinian Arabs?  Perhaps
 CM> these "organizations" are only out for hire to the PLO,
 CM> producing political capital through murder, but not destined
 CM> for power-sharing?

That's certainly reading a good deal into a report on Husseini's
statement without seeing the direct quote. Of course HAMAS is in
some general objective sense an "organization."

It's fair and reasonable for Israel to be suspicious about
whether the PLO might in some way be using Islamic
fundamentalists to advance its objectives. But you need hard
proof, not suspicions, before you can throw the charge around as
fact.

I think it's a big mistake for Israel to get bogged down in any
kind of sophistic verbal games about who is the more virtuous
actor, itself or the Palestinians. What is most in Israel's
interest is to rid itself of the necessity to keep nearly 2
million Palestinians under the gun while at the same protecting
its physical security. The Palestinians need to be given some
sort of autonomy or demilitarized statehood under terms and
conditions that will prevent them from threatening Israel in the
future. Israel should keep its eye on the ball, and not get
distracted, or allow the maximalists in its own camp to disrupt
the peace process by focusing solely on the maximalists in the
other camp.

This could be Israel's last chance to achieve any kind of
normality as a nation. If the current peace process fails, as the
hardliners on both sides so ardently wish, the entire region is
probably going to end up as a nuclear waste dump before the year
2000. That would be a spectacular failure of Zionism, but one
consistent with the messianic histrionics of more than a few
extremists in Israel.

Wayne
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  an exabyte here & there, soon you're talking real memory
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24005 talk.politics.soviet:9955 soc.culture.greek:11835 soc.culture.europe:10763 soc.history:10359 soc.culture.soviet:11507
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:53:51 CST

In article <1992Dec30.155906.10156@colorado.edu>, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
> I found Jeremy Henderson's article truly hilarious, not to mention
> utterly specious.  It's funny how he uses his perceptions of one
> incident to try to prove things completely unconnected with it, and to
> draw connections about the nature of Israeli democracy which are
> patently false.
> 
> In article <29851@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> 
>> Secondly, we can also dispose of the myth that
>>the Israeli parliament contains a wide spectrum of viewpoints with regard
>>to the (surely central) issue of the Palestinian question, since the
>>so-called leftist Meretz party steped neatly into line and goose-stepped
>>into ignominy behind Rabin. 
> 
> Talk about shaky evidence.  I would suggest that Mr. Henderson try
> reading the broadsheet in the Jerusalem Post International Edition
> concerning the party platforms for all the parties now in the Knesset.
> The most recent one was printed the week of the most recent editions,
> and he should easily be able to find it in Edinburgh.  


	Nuh, Eric. You suggest Jeremy _actually_ read something
	_relevant_ to the subject of his posts? Won't _that_ be
	a cruel and unusuall punishment?


What he's saying
> essentially is that since his point of view isn't represented then by
> definition there is not a wide spectrum of viewpoints!  Talk about
> specious!

	Funny how people (not just Jeremy) opted to learn something
	about Meretz rather than about the Hamas.

 
>>Thirdly, we can also consign to oblivion the
>>notion that the majority of the Israeli public really want a just peace
>>based on honest dealing with the Palestinians, since according to opinion
>>polls 91% of them are in accored with the deportations. 
> 
> Maybe there's a reason for that?  What you're trying to say is that
> unless they agree with you on this point they cannot be called serious.
> Utter Hogwash.  Jeremy Henderson, czar of political opinions.


	This is the same Jeremy, who, based on 2 (two!) Serbian Jews 
	who supported Serbia against Bosnia, claimed that all those 
	prominent British Jews who condemned Serbia do not represent
	what most Jews feel in that case. When he thinks the majority
	view suits his case, it can be sweepingly generalized, when it
	doesn't it can be as easily dismissed. A hypocrite, that 
	Jeremy.

		[....]


Noam

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23867 talk.politics.soviet:9897 soc.culture.greek:11734 soc.culture.europe:10686 soc.history:10306 soc.culture.soviet:11375 news.admin.policy:830