HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Eli.Mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Eli Mantel)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Annoying aspect of MLMs
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:42:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

ram@tellabs.com (Bob Martin) writes:
 >[the distributor] went on for about an hour ... before
 >saying what organization he was with.

The somewhat peculiar defense of this approach, that seems to be primarily
associated with Amway, is that if you knew it was Amway, you wouldn't give
them a chance to explain their opportunity... it seems they already have a
"reputation".  The explanation is actually not that their reputation is bad,
but that their reputation is of selling soap out of the back of a station
wagon, which is not what Amway is really about.

And it's true... Amway is only tangentially involved in selling soap.
The main thing they sell is dreams.  Some people make good money at it.
							Eli
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: wpalmer@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Palmer)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: MLM and pyramid schemes
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:33:23 GMT
Reply-To: wpalmer@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Palmer)
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center, Annapolis, MD

In alt.business.multi-level, Eli.Mantel@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Eli Mantel) writes:

>                                                                ...in the
>end, MLM marketing plans which emphasize the recruiting aspect leave many
>many people stuck holding the bag...

I'd take the bag out of their hands and give them their money back.


|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bill "Dream Chief" Palmer, Code 2744    voice: 410-267-2964/4817
Applications and Special Projects branch  fax: 410-267-2561
Naval Surface Warfare Center          autovon: 281-4817
Annapolis, MD, USA, 21402-5067       InterNet: wpalmer@oasys.dt.navy.mil

"...death and life are in the power of the tongue."  - Proverbs 18:21
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Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Subject: Re: Info on Amway....
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 18:00:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article zaval@athena.mit.edu (Antonis) writes:
>
>I was told that some time ago there was a heated discussion in 
>misc.jobs.misc about Amway.  At that time there was an accusation 
>floating around that Amway is connected with Christian Science or 
>something like this.  Any info?

This is not true.  The business is open to all, and there is no "agenda",
despite the efforts of critics to find a conspiracy.  Check out
'alt.conspiracy' for what I'm talking about.

Rich and Jay (the owners) are Dutch Reformed Protestants, and they run the
business as only a Dutchman would run it, with integrity and fiscal
conservatism.

Jon Noring

-- 
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If your annual income today is $50,000, you have the same buying power as
the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Subject: Re: Jilted/Cheating in an MLM
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 20:52:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article reb@punch.EBay.Sun.COM (Bob Brown) writes:

>Distributors can and have been removed from MLMs for not following
>the rules--- that is reasonable. Distributors at very high levels can
>be removed too--- and have been for KNOWINGLY, after being warned, 
>to stop some certain activity, and then blatently continuing. Never
>believe your own press clippings!

This is very true.  Amway has pulled the distributorships of many people for
violations of its Code of Ethics, including those of distributors at the
Diamond level and above.  They usually end up in other MLM's, and hopefully
toe the line in their new business.

Jon Noring

-- 
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If your annual income today is $50,000, you have the same buying power as
the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Amway, Just the Facts please
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:25:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.vdsj#n#.noring
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Hello everybody,

Just saw this over in misc.consumers.  I post it here for those who don't read
that newsgroup.  It's one of the better written expositions I've seen of some
of the misconceptions about MLM that we face.  (It talks about Amway, but you
can easily substitute MLM for Amway without losing any meaning). 

Enjoy.

Jon Noring


In article mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen) writes:
>If you can become rich with Amway, then you could probably do it with many
>other businesses.  It requires a lot of work, a good relationship with your
>neighbors and extended family, self discipline, and desire. 
>
>Most people who sign up as Amway distributors, don't even distribute.  Just
>do the arithmetic.  If each distributor signs up 6 sub-distributors, etc.,
>then in just 11 levels, you would have over 300 million distributors.  That's
>everyone in the US, including new-borns and convalecent hospital residents.
>
>Many, including me, have a problem with AMWAY because they sell the dream, not
>the products.  If you like the product at those inflated prices, sign up.
>It's a cheaper way to get them (still not competitive).  If you want to get
>rich evaluate other options as well.  Just don't focus on the few who did
>well.  Look at the average income of the business you are getting into.
>
>Be sure to talk to people that have failed, as well as those that have
>succeeded.  Find out why.  How many of those 300 million distributors are
>getting wealthy?
>
>The problem with working for yourself is that you may find out you don't
>make a great boss.





-- 
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If your annual income today is $50,000, you have the same buying power as
the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: Annoying aspect of MLMs
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:37:11 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> Craig;
> 
> This is the best response to this question that I've seen yet!
> Mind if I borrow it for my presentations?
> 
> Have a great day,
> Paul

Well, high praise indeed.

I cannot claim all of the credit for this though, as it is simply the answer
I recieved from my uplines when I asked exactly the same question.

If you want to use it, go ahead.

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Date: 12 Apr 92 17:04:57 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk


 briansp@css.itd.umich.edu (Brian Spolarich)

        In article <u9eNiB1w164w@bluemoon.rn.com
        garys@bluemoon.rn.com (Gary Stollman) writes: WELL, it has
        been a strange three months here in LA...God is continuing to
        wipe out the demons that have tried to destroy my family,
        and I have great hope for my future now...It looks like we
        just might win!! But the impact on my psyche is
        irreversible, I'm afraid...I just don't know what these
        aliens will come up with next...They have the phones tapped
        to the gills, and the CIA has most of the nodes (bbses) I
        call bugged and also the people on GEnie that are on the
        boards I frequent, but me thinks they might be getting tired
        somewhat...They know now that I didn't pull that toy gun on
        David Horowitz for nothing...But I don't think they know
        exactly WHY I did it...They will find out soon enough, I
        think...

        Gary This is from garys@bluemoon.rn.com who doesn't have
        their own obnoxious signature yet


 >Are we a little paranoid?  Time for some Prozac, I think.

Umm, I think Gary has his tongue a bout a mile sideways out of his
cheek on this one actually.

If Gary was a Zen Master, I would say that this is a sort of Koan
directed at those who post to alt.parnormal claiming conspiracy
theory...but since he probably isn't I guess he is trying out some
early attempts at creative fiction.

Gary: your spelling checker didn't pick up 'missle' which is a sort
od thrush (member of genus turdidae I think). The thought of aliens
attackinmg us with Thrush(es) is truly disturbing...now wheres that
chlorpromazine....
From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Dr. Puthoff: Information Wanted About His Past Work in PSI
Date: 12 Apr 92 20:14:37 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

dir2@gte.com (Dean Radin) writes:
> Flame on...
> 
> It is fascinating to watch revisionist history in the making.  
> Normally I don't comment on things that appear in sci.skeptics or 
> alt.paranormal because email is the worst possible medium in which
> to discuss controversial topics.  However, as I am well acquainted 
> with Hal Puthoff and his psi research (I worked with Hal at SRI), it
> pains me to read such distortions.  I will not repeat what I know
> about this research because no one is likely to believe me anyway.  
 
        Gee, that's too bad; perhaps we can all benefit from the balance of 
different accounts. Of course, if you're _not_ going to challenge my points 
beyond the blather you've offered, I can safely ignore your claim that 
Puthoff's been maligned.

> 
> Instead I will simply assert that Marks and Kammann's style of
> "investigation," which nicely reflects the standard CSICOP mentality, is an 
> **extreme position** and should be recognized as acknowledged as such.  The 
> extremist view of the world is about as far as one can get from a neutral 
> or balanced position, and re-interpretations of history and science 
> methodology are as susceptible to extremist revisions as anything else.
> 
> Some day I may be enticed into setting the record straight, but I have
> better things to do.
> 
> Flame off.

        The charge that one is an 'extremist' is one of the funnier, more 
pathetic smears used by demagogues; I just finished with someone on 
sci.skeptic who tossed that particular accusation at anyone who disagreed 
with him. One could easily say that Dean Radin is an 'extremist' on the other 
end of the issue-- and best of all, one doesn't have to justify or detail the 
charge. It's a pseudosophisticated way of saying, "Well, that person's 
opinions don't count," without having to justify it.

        The fact is, Marks and Kammann's investigation of Targ and Puthoff's 
'remote viewing' experiments was thorough, detailed, and well grounded in 
documented evidence. I leave it to the readers to acquire "The Psychology of 
the Psychic" to read alongside of Targ's "Mind Race" and make up their own 
minds.


Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  revpk@cellar.org
...Saure really turns out to be an adept at the difficult art of papryomancy,
the ability to prophesy through contemplating the way people roll reefers -
the shape, the licking pattern, the wrinkles and folds or absence thereof
in the paper.  "You will soon be in love," sez Saure, "see, this line here."
"It's long, isn't it?  Does that mean --" "Length is usually intensity.
Not time."                       -- Thomas Pynchon, _Gravity's Rainbow_
From: pcky@thyme.lcs.mit.edu (Patrick Yip)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Ouija and the Orient?
Date: 7 Apr 92 09:30:14 GMT
Organization: MIT

Firstly, I don't know the origin of Ouija. However, do readers here know
that there's a widely known practice in China (well, at least Southern 
China) that is almost exactly the same as Ouija??

The name is Di'e Shi'e (Mandarin) or Dip Shin (Cantonese), meaning
Saucer Spirit. It uses a soy sauce saucer (for its small size) instead
of the Ouija triangle, and a cloth or paper written with special arrangement
of Chinese characters, which serves as the same purpose as the Ouija board.
The Chinese characters are written in red ink on a usually yellow paper,
the same way the charm or mantra is written in China.

Ask any of your friends who came from China, Taiwan or Hongkong, they
probably know it.

It has surprised me that Ouija is given as kid's gift or is played as a
"hilarious" leisure game. I said this because Dip Shin has a more occult
nature, and many would never try to associate themselves with it, not to
say laugh the thing off easily. 

It works just like Ouija, with the saucer inverted and placed on the paper or
cloth. The room should be dark and candles should be lit. A dip-shin (saucer
spirit) is summoned by some ritual and will then dwell on the saucer.
The saucer will then move to cover one Chinese character at one time. The
characters that the saucer covers give the verdict of the spirit.

The horrible tale that usually abounds with the use of Dip-Shin is that it's
easy to summon the spirit, but it's difficult to send it away, especially if
you show contempt or disrespect (by breaking some taboos or having an improper
attitude). What would happen if the spirit refuses to go away has varied
accounts, although one can be sure that it's nothing good.

Perhaps one can take it as Oriental Mysticism or Folklore Superstition, but
many people there prefer not to touch it even if they think this way.

Patrick
From: dangaio@cats.ucsc.edu (Jin Min Kim)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: previous message
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:49:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: darkstar.33171
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz



the previous message i posted asking for info on OBE's.......

	please direct any responses to me here:

		lestat@geysir.lib.uwm.edu


thanks, tom fox
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner)
Subject: LOST LIST
Reply-To: stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:25:07 GMT

About 3 to 4 (maybe even 5) months ago, I asked for a list of  
parapsychological research centers (their addresses, that is).  A list of  
around 6 were posted which I copied.  Well, since then, my account has  
been scrogged and I have lost the list and the name of the person who  
posted it.  Does anyone have THE list or a list of their own making?  If  
you do PLEASE post it or send it to me!
                          I really appreciate your time,
                            KEVIN T. STINER
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
From: dangaio@cats.ucsc.edu (Jin Min Kim)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: hmmm
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:47:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: darkstar.33170
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz



Hi,

	I have recently become interested in astral projection or out of body
experiences (OBE)s. I read some stuff by Monroe and have reached the point now
through painstaking repetition and failure that I can almost break free of me
body. Does anyone have the ability to do this now that can give me some        
suggestions and/or pointers?

Any help is much appreciated.

Tom Fox
From: windsphire@wizard.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: RE: Which book to choose on astral projection
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:21:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: wizard.7APR92.17211455
Organization: UMS

In a previous article, jlavi@cs.joensuu.fi (Jarkko Lavinen) wrote:

One's I would recommend:

The Psychic Explorer by Van Dam
	One of the most comprehensive books written on techniques for
	projecting, also some fascinating accounts of the astral and
	why we are usually restricted to the physical.

Have an OOBE in 30 days or less
	Corny title, but covers a cross-section of technique and a
	systematic program for projecting. The author was interviewed
	in an issue of OMNI and claims employment based on his skills
	for discovering objects at sea (rather, under the sea).


	-Windsphire
Xref: sparky alt.paranormal:1228 alt.magick:1938
From: phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 04:56:37 CDT
Organization: Bogus.COM -- Public Access Network Services

dug@athena.cs.uga.edu (Douglas Brown) writes:

> My experience with Ouija that makes me believe that there is something 
> other than my personal subconscious involved:  One useless twit of a 
> "spirit" that ALWAYS shows up on my board.  It does not matter if I am
> using the board or if I am even present.  Whenever anyone uses my
> board, this same twit pops in and won't go away.  The problem is that 
> it's an illiterate spirit.  We recognize him from the fact that he always
> alternates between 2 letters...the T and the C, if I remember correctly.
> He also has a fairly distinctive manner of manipulating the planchette.
> 
> It may be something from our subconscious, but even if it is, it manages
> to cross over to whomever is using the board.
> 
> dug.

I've had that happen too!!  Wierd, but I don't think that it was TC though.

Was VERY annoying!!!



===
* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe
My opinions are my own.  They may or may not be shared by the management.
From: Rick.Moen@f207.n914.z8.rbbs-net.ORG (Rick Moen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Programming And metapr
Date: 11 Apr 92 04:47:45 GMT

In article <R2HuiB2w164w@jwt.UUCP>, bbs-anarchy@jwt.UUCP (Wayne

WN>  On the same topic, does anyone have a snail mail address for the Esalen
  >  Institute in Big Sur?

If you just write "Esalen Institute, Big Sur, California", it'll get
there.  Believe me, it's not exactly big city down there, and the
postmen certainly know Esalen.

I used to go down there at night and soak in the baths they have there
in a rocky alcove looking out over the Pacific -- a very California
experience, I suppose.  Anyhow, Esalen is a pretty big outfit, for the
central coast.

Best Regards,              "In the struggle between you and the world,
Rick Moen                   back the world."
Vice-Chair, Bay Area Skeptics                   -- Frank Zappa

 * Origin: The Skeptic's Board in San Francisco - Bay Area Skeptics (8:914/207)
From: defonso@astro.as.utexas.edu (Eric Defonso)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Normal Experiences being Paranormal
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:11:37 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <32894@darkstar.ucsc.edu> wjames@cse.ucsc.edu (John Amenta) writes:
>
[deletia]
> Of course your scientists will explain there is a reason for the
> sun, or there is a chemical reaction for your emotion.  They speak
> of causality, and accidental evolution.  But tell me, what caused
> the Big Bang, and what do you think are the chances that something
> as incredible complex as our brain just happened to evolve accidently?
> If you believe that a tornado could go through a junk-yard and create
> a jumbo-jet, then maybe you might believe we ourselves are the products
> of pure accidental conglamerations of chemicals and molecules.

Why do people think that the occurrence of life on our planet was
so improbable? Whoever said the human brain was an accident of evolution?

The laws of physics and chemistry as we know them in no way issue 
prohibitions against the "conglomerations of chemicals and molecules"
that we are made of. The resiliency of life in its many forms (i.e.,
insects, plants) is certainly astounding, but I've never heard that
a miracle was required to explain it. So why again do some people
consider human existence as unlikely as that tornado-manufactured
jumbo-jet? That is hardly an analog to consider.

None of this means that I consider humanity (or any form of life)
irrelevant or uninteresting. All this means is that I don't require
that something be inexplicable for me to appreciate it. It reminds
me of a quote, whose authorship escapes me...

"Science not only begins in wonder, it ends in wonder."


>
> Nah.  Occult blood runs through are veins.  Unless you really do
> believe
> all of this is accidental.  But maybe it is.  I hope with all hope
> it is not.

I neither have occult blood in my veins nor do I believe this is
accidental. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "occult".
Please be more specific.

-- 
Eric DeFonso (astro.as.utexas.edu)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++