From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Nordic ESTONIA? (Was: Cut the crap
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:09:41 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <716498632@locust.cs.duke.edu>, wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
> 
> : 
> :   We have different understanding about "double standards",
> : dear Jarmo. Western politicans were tearing apart their throats
> : when shouting about human rights violations in East European
> : communist countries, while now when much worse human rights
> : violations are going on in "independent" and supposely
> : "democratic" Baltic countries, they shut up their mouths.
> : Meanwhile in Estonia the situation with civil rights could
> : be compared only with Germany'33-45. I can list several
> : "actions" of Estonian regime, unprecendental in its nature:
> : 1. Estonian parlament by majority of votes deprived
> : Russian-speaking deputies their mandates exclusively because
> : of their non-Estonian ethnicity. And it was done by Estonian
> : deputies who were elected on the very same elections with those
> : non-Estonian deputies. THIS IS FASCISM.
> 
>>Bullshit, you have no idea what is going on in Estonia.
>>Read their constitution and estonian history&sovietizatization
>>history of Estonia so you may undestand.
> 
> 
>       You're completely avoiding the question of present-day
>       violations of fundamental human rights by the Estonian
>       Government and hiding behind the veil of Estonian history
>       & Sovietization.  You apparently have nothing to say on
>       the subject, so why not blabber away about family values?
> 
> 3. Estonian goverment has deprived de-facto non-Estonians
> : the electorial rights. THIS IS FASCISM.
> : 4. Estonian goverment has sent additional police troops
> : to Narva region to suppress Russians there and prevent the
> : population of Narva region to hold the referendum on independence.
> : Even Soviet regime didn't prevent Balts from holding their
> : referendum on independence. THIS IS FASCISM.
> : 5. Estonian regime is posing the territorial claims to
> : Russia's Pskov region and even was engaged in direct 
> : agression in May-June. THIS IS FASCISM.
> : 
> 
>>Bullshit. You have no idea what is going on in Estonia.
>>I would like to mention that last statue of Lenin on the estonian
>>ground is in NARVA. So about russo-estonians and their innocent
>>immigration to Estonia.. 
> 
> 
>       Big f***ing deal, Jarmo.  So they've left a statue
>       of Lenin untouched?  And what of it?  At least Lenin's
>       government recognized the independence of Estonia, despite
>       the fact the Yudenich used it as a base of operations against
>       Petrograd during the Russian Civil War.  And think about
>       what you're implying anyway!  Even if every single Russian
>       in Estonia is a Communist, which is highly improbable, you
>       seem to insinuate that they should be deported to Russia
>       on the basis of their political beliefs!?  With supporters
>       like you, Democracy needs no detractors.
> 
> :   Even "not-so-democratic" Uzbekistan and Azerbajdzhan
> : didn't do such things.
> :   Estonia IS a FASCIST STATE. And please, please, don't
> : bother youself by posting articles from  Estonian "constitution".
> : It is well-known fact that Stalin's constitution in xUSSR was
> : also quite democratic from the first glance.
> :   Serega & Co
> 
>>You Serega is still a long way to go to understand what is nordic
>>democracy.
> 
> 
> 
>       No, he's assimilated your notions of democracy
>       quite well.  BTW, do YOU really believe your own words
>       when you refer to Estonia as a "nordic democracy?"
> 
> 

> -- Eduard Wiener