From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
Subject: Re: misrepresentation of islam (reply to hossein)
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:18:03 GMT

In article <C139r3.CE8@ucunix.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes:
>hossein says:
>
>stuff about mutu'ah, seeghah, temporary marriag. something that sunni islam 
>doesn't allow  and i don't know much about, so i can't comment on it.
>however i do know two things. according to most iranians that i have talked
>to, seeghah is looked down upon in iran. and it seems like the iranian 
>mullahs are better at being hypocrites than pakistani ones. all they do is
>eat halva, faloodah, and get fat.
>
>PART I
>------
>
>In article <1991Jul24.184520.4276@cs.ubc.ca> X  writes:
>>
> >   In article <1991Jul24.135507.9225@fmg.bt.co.uk> hr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Rafsanjani) writes:
> >   >
> >   >prostitution in Iran than the U.S."  In the absence of open
> >   >discussion and "freedom of information" in Iran, one may
> >   >only look at auxiliary evidence to compare the two
> >   >phenomena: causes and effects.  Poverty, lack of social
> >   >security, sexual oppression, degredation of women (both
> >   >culturally and in the law) are much stronger in Iran than in US
> >   >(and other western countries).  
> >
> >
> >   You suggest that poverty encourages prostitution in Iran.
> >   I don't believe this. I think the role of cultural and
> >   religious values is far more important. Many women in
> >   the west are prostitutes not because they really have 
> >   to but because they want to make more money. 
> >
>
> Cultural and religious values are important, but nobody can
> deny the effect of poverty on prostitution and other social
> evils.  Moreover, I regard poverty as far more obscene than
> prostitution.  And the sight of well-off people moralising
> for the poor and punishing them if they get involved in
> prostitution, really abhorrent.
>
>	i got no problem with hossein here. prostitution is of course
>	forbidden in islam. and i advocate that islam does not allow
>	mutuah, temporary marriage, however, there are many shiah, who
>	would disagree. however, once again, i have to say that all of
>	the people who i have talked to about this issue say that mutuah
>	is looked down upon in iran. also i have read some of the books
>	of fiqh on the practice of mutuah. it is not as simple as someone
>	making themselves available for a temporary marriage. once again
>	i am not talking about what the society in iran does, i am talking
>	here about shiah fiqh. also there has been a move, in recent years
>	spearheaded by a women's rights leader in iran, azam taleqani, i 
>	think she is the daughter of a religious shiekh in iran, to 
>	have all temporary marriages registered first before being official.
>	once again i am against temporary marriage, however if shiah were
>	to truly practice this idea, then it would not be so easy for them
>	to just pick up a woman, IMO.
>
> Indeed, it is arguable if prostitution, meaning exchanging
> sexual favours for material/financial gain, is inherently
> immoral.  After all, the institution of marriage in
> traditional patriarchial societies is a prime example of
> "monopolised prostitution".  This is very specific in the
> text exchanged between the two partners in an Islamic
> marriage where the woman offers herself in marriage to the
> man in exchange for a fixed amount*.  It is a prime example
> of the sheer hypocracy prevalent in such societies against
> women that when they get involved in non-monopolised
> prostitution (ususally, but not always, forced by poverty or
> exploitation) they are most severely punished.
>
>	oh well once again you are talking about marriage in iran.
>	i have never heard the mantra being said in any of the 
>	marriages i have attended. the only thing i heard was the
>	sheikh ask the husband or the wife if they considered the
>	wedding munasib and then the papers were signed. so if it
>	happens in iran, that again is an iranian thing, not an 
>	islamic thing. you do have one point about marriages though.
>	many people do marry in order to get out of poverty or to
>	enhance their social status. i think in the quran, people
>	are encouraged to marry the poor in order to make their 
>	lives easier for them. i am not sure about the verse though.
>	if you want to call that as prostitution, you can go ahead 
>	and do so. i wouldn't be surprised.
>
> -hossein
>
> * The Arabic text, initiated by the woman('s side) and
> accepted by the man('s side)  (with its variation) is as follows:
>
> Ankahtok-a/zavvajtok-a nafsi ala al-sedaq/al-mahr al-ma'alum
> = I marry myself to you on the mahr/sedaq known (fixed).
>
> Sorry man, i never heard this mantra before. Once again, must be something
> Iranian. It isn't in the Quran, nor have any of the Prophet's wives said
> anything like this. It sounds nice thogh.
>
>Mahr or sedaq does not means just money but anything of material/financial
>value. 
>
>BUZZZ! Wrong. It doesn't even have to be of any material value. The Prophet
>of God allowed a man to give his bride the gift of surat-e-ikhlas as mahr.
>The man was poor and was able to marry her. Once again talk about ISLAM,
>that is Quran-e-Sharif or Hadis, and of that, words, deeds, or sayings of
>Muhammad (S) that are considered Sahih. This is a good article about what
>goes on in Iran. But little or none is reflective of the religion of Islam.
>
>	start
>
>PART II
>-------
>
>In article <1991Aug1.145352.3677@cs.ubc.ca> X  writes:
>
>>   You still have not said what you think about banning marriage?
>>   Didn't you say that marriage was "monopolized prostitution"?!
>
>>       X
>
>Ok, ok, X, I heard you.  It is just I got a bit busy
>doing some work.  And of course, I should come back and
>answer your questions.  They are all motivated by the desire
>to learn and find the truth, aren't they?  So how could I
>evade it?
>
>Now, I understand your feelings about this sacred subject.
>And that you want a definite 'yes' or 'no' answer to these
>fundamental questions.  You see, X, you believe in
>'authority'. You think things are either 'allowed' or
>
>But first, a health warning for some other innocents:
>
>HEALTH WARNING: 
>============== 
>
>THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL CONTAINS SUBSTANCES WHICH MAY BE
>HARMFUL TO THOSE WHO BELIVE THAT "THEIR" BELIEF, CULTURE,
>RELIGION, MORALS, SELF, FAMILY, CLAN, SOCIETY, NATION OR
>GOVERNMENT ARE THE BEST OR SACRED AND BEYOND CRITICISM.  NO
>CLAIMS FOR DAMAGES ETC WILL BE ACCEPTED.
>
>Now, X, we can talk more privately.  (I assume you are
>still there.  After all, you asked the question, and I
>expect at least you have stayed on for the answer.  So here
>we go.)
>
>(In the following, smileys deleted all the way)
>
>YES! IF it means that the woman is selling herself to the
>man for life in exchange for a fixed amount (as the text of
>khotbeh used for religious marriage in Iran implies) (Yes,
>X, that's what it implies);
>
>YES! IF the woman is used as means of extracting money by the
>woman's parents and/or male relatives from the man in the
>form of mahr or shir-behaa (as is common in many parts of
>Iran) (NO X, this is not the same as the previous one);
>
>YES! IF a virgin woman cannot marry without her father's
>consent;
>
>YES! IF a Moslem woman can marry only a Moslem man and/but a
>Moslem man can marry only a woman of 'ahl-e ketaab' i.e.,
>Christian, Jews and (some say) Zoroastrian (as is the case
>in Shi'a feqh with variations about permanent and temporary
>marriage);
>
>YES! IF it is used as means of consolidating the class/cast
>structure of the society (You know, X, that in India
>you cannot marry someone of a lower cast, and in Iran, you

What is a lower caste Zafar?  And who stops you from marrying anyone 
you want to in India?  A girl over 18 and a boy over 18 can marry anyone they
want to, that is the Indian law.

>zafar

Manoj
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian