From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: An Old Male Fantasy that needs to pass
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 20:18:20 GMT

I appreciate Michael Rivero's efforts at maintaining
one of the older Male Myths about warfare...

but it is Time to grow up and face reality.

I will direct the reader to this quarter's issue of MHQ
as a technical reference. But the Grand Fantasy about
the 'end game' of Cold Steel Bayonets - is Romantic -
but both impractical and not supported by the data.

Less than 2% of the casualties of WWI were from bayonets.
{ I use these stats as this was a war that was impassionately
infatuated with the massed charge of bayoneted infantry...}

Now Moving on to the Other NonSequitor of his proposition -
That some how we can allow males into the 'cooks and bakers corp'
who are not quite the Ideal of the Grande Armee's Imperial Guard,
but that we can still call upon these less than fit 'cooks and bakers'
during the inevitable breakthrough attack....[1]

Hum....

Yup. Sure enough works as a proof that those 'weak little girls'
should NOT be allowed into combat arms.

Also worth noting: when the special forces camp down the road
from Khe Sahn was over run by NVA units backed up with PT-76
tanks... the Special Forces boys learned that bayonets were not decent
anti_tank weapons....
{hum, wonder if this proves that those Green Beenies were wimps?}

So Michael, if you wish to use historical data points as a
part of your Sexist Fantasies.... At least try to make them
work a little more effectively.

rivero@mdcbbs.com (Michael Rivero) writes:
] In article <1992Oct6.183511.9059@wetware.com>, drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
] |> exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
] |> ] In article <achmadsn.4.717752897@dhhalden.no> achmadsn@dhhalden.no (ACHMAD SUBHAN NASIR) writes:
] |> ] 
] |> ] Personally I find it rather ludicrous that one would judge one's equality
] |> ] with others on the basis of their ability or inability to wield an M 16.
] |> 
] |> 
] |> In a Word: Yes.
] |> 
] |> But given as it is Richard Lee's contention that this
] |> is the DivineArbitorOfEquality, then I thought it 
] |> useful to point out the viability of "Women on FullAuto"[1]
] |> 
] |> Personally I have always felt that the true arbitor was
] |> who could hold the peremiter with M-60's on tripods,
] |> and claymore's selectively positioned to provide enhanced
] |> killing fields... 
] |> 
] 
]   That's a nice ideal, and one which is promoted during the conscription of
] troops, i.e. you just push a button and the bad guys fall down. However, 
] the history of WW2 and Korea is replete with decisive battles which ended
] as hand-to-hand combat with knives after the ammunition ran out. Patton
] almost lost third army during his drive across Europe when his fuel ran out
] just as he met a Panzer column. That battle was saved only because the 
] Germans had more knives sticking out of them than the Americans did 
] when it was all over.
] 
]   As was the unfortnate case during the recent Los Angeles insurrection,
] when women go up against men in a non-munitioned fight, they get
] very dead, very quickly. The women who fought for the Soviets
] during WW2 suffered excessive losses in situations where the machinery
] was no longer running.
] 
]   No military commander (certainly not one I want defending my country)
] will put weaker soldiers into any situation which has any possability of
] degrading into a hand-to-hand fight. 
] 
]   Women can make fine pilots and tank crews, but they are at a natural
] disadvantage in a ground fight when the ammo runs out, the plane is shot down,
] or the tank disabled.

Minor Trivia question...

Given that all support personnel will be in the 'front lines'
after a break through... what are your recommendations?

That the USMC is the Model to follow? All personnel are 
RiflePersons First????


It is an old male fantasy, and it is time to carry on.

the Days of the Myth of 'L' Arme Blanche' have come and gone.

I understand that there will always be operational situations,
as with the Battle of Khe Sahn, where the rules of war degenerate
into what, as the Marine Corp Historian Noted, 'it was more like
a water front brawl....'

So... 

Not all Males are Big Hulky BeastMasters either...


ciao
drieux

[1] cf: battle of bastogne.

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