HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: julie england <england@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Isaac Asimov:  1920-1992
Keywords: Sob!
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 07:49:15 -0500

In article <1992Apr6.195721.6716@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
>
> some stuff deleted ...
>
>Isaac is dead, and most of the world really doesn't care.
>

I care . . . and a lot of people I know care.  I will miss him
a lot.  Like a lot of people, he inspired me and sparked my
interest in science and science fiction.

I didn't know what else to do besides posting this note.  I wanted
to say something.  I guess I can say:  thanks.

Julie
-- 
*--------------------------------**---------------------------------------*
| Julie England                  ||  Workshop in Political Theory and     |
| england@silver.ucs.indiana.edu ||   Policy Analysis, Indiana University |
*--------------------------------**---------------------------------------*
From: mcirvin@husc10.harvard.edu (Mcirvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF about doing science ?
Summary: A recommendation
Keywords: Bruce Sterling
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:12:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Apr8.221213.10870
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <doom.702690387@elaine5.Stanford.EDU> doom@elaine5.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner) writes:
>
>I want to ask here for recommendations for "science" fiction
>stories that are actually about the social process of doing
>science, as opposed to engineering (or psuedo-scientific
>magic or mysticism, for that matter).   
>
The short story "The Beautiful and the Sublime" by Bruce Sterling
is about how this social process eventually comes to an end.  It
is one of my favorite pieces of short sf.  It can be found in the
collection _Crystal Express_ and in one of the Dozois anthologies.


-- 
       ______________________Matt McIrVIn______________________
                             Wgff WcILAIu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.movies
From: derek@netcom.com (Derek LeLash)
Subject: Re: _Postman_ Movie!
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 07:06:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Apr13.092637.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>
>What I want to know is why haven't we seen ANYTHING from him since Postman
>except for the short story "Dr. Pak's Preschool"?
>
You mean besides the huge novel "EARTH"?  And does "Heart of the Comet" fit
into that space chronologically?

Derek

-- 
Derek LeLash (derek@netcom.com)   "I pulled into a fast food place, parked, and
Technical Writer/Mac Savant        went in.  I could have yelled my order into
BASYS Automation Systems, Inc.     a clown's mouth and eaten in the car, but I
Sunnyvale, CA  408-720-1236 x201   wanted to show I had class." -- Sue Grafton
From: 910252m@ace.acadiau.ca (DWAYNE ALLAN MAC KINNON)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Celtic fantasy
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:19:55 GMT
Organization: Acadia University

One good serious is The Green Luion Trilogy, by Teresa Edgerton. I enjoyed 
it thoroughly.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jjxxjj@mixcom.com (Tom Damm)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Jurassic Park
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:37:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: mixcom.1992Apr08.003745.12762
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.

In article <1992Apr7.140218.13595@eff.org> peterco@eff.org (Peter A. Cohen) writes:
>
>>Chaos theory is real, and quite interesting.  You should have no trouble
>>finding books abou it for the layman in your local library.
>
>Indeed.  Most bookstores have softcover editions of books like "Chaos" (I can't
>remember who wrote it...anyone is welcome to help me here).  Chaos theory,
>fractal mathematics, etc.  Fascinating stuff, and fairly popular.  Go patronize
>your local B. Dalton today!
>
>- Peter

James Gleick is the author.  ISBN is 0-14-009250-1.

- Tom
 
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  'No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely
   necessary.'   -- William Occam
From: jevans@ius.indiana.EDU (JEVANS)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: RiverCon XVII Info correction......
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:27:33 GMT


          As you may have guessed by this point, weapons are NOT
          allowed, not "NOW" allowed. Thank you, Kirk.

          Scottish King

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin)
Subject: Re: New Releases
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:01:18 GMT

Thanks for the list!  But I noticed the title
_Ring Around the Sun_, by Clifford Simak.  I didn't recognize
this one.  Is it another new book by a dead author, a reprint,
a biography, or what?

   Thanks
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 15:36:21 EDT
From: <MAC139@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Chris Claremont's _First_Flight_

I was quite disappointed with First Flight when I read it a couple years ago. I
got it since I read X-men and was curious to see if Claremont could cross over
into the literary world. My thoughts on the book: it's just a rip off of old
X-men-isms. (a few spoilers follow) For example:
--there's a part  where one of the characters gets their hair cut in some punk
 fashion...and that   was almost taken exactly from when Storm (in X-men) got
  get hair all punky years ago and Kitty Pryde took exception to the change
--Ben Ciari (sp?) is just wolverine in space. He's rough  and gruff, he smokes
  a stogey, he puts Nicole through mock fights (a la the Danger Room). Augh!
--the cats in space reminded me of some other thing Claremont had done before,
  although I can't remember it now. I don't like cats.

For some reason I read the sequel, Grounded. This one has a lot more of the
cats and is almost entirely set on terra firma, which I didn't like. It's more
of a detective mystery than anything. Again he borrows from the X-men. The most
action are the mock/practice action scenes, action stolen from the danger room.
And then there's the morality thrown in: "If I kill this bad guy, I'm no better
than he is."

Claremont's a good writer overall, although sometimes his lines of dialogue can
leave you confused. He just needs an original story. Don't we all.

--Brian
From: lindsey@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (daniel lindsey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Help
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:18:11 GMT
Reply-To: lindsey@cs.nps.navy.mil (daniel lindsey)
Organization: Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey CA

I've been having the same problems.  But your (this) post got through.
Let's see if this one does.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: tyg@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Thomas Galloway)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Reply-To: tyg@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Thomas Galloway)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 18:43:08 GMT

In article <89iU028=0fU801@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) writes:
> In article <1992Apr08.080558.29391@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
> >I WANT MORE BRUST!  Wish he could clone himself
> I thought Brust *had* cloned himself. Why else would Jerry Boyajian look
> exactly like Brust?

Because Brust is a clone of Boyajian rather than the other way around?

tyg  tyg@hq.ileaf.com

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: menees@utkvx2.utk.edu (Menees, Bill)
Subject: Tad Williams next book?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:29:00 GMT

	Does anyone know when the last book from Tad's trilogy is due out?
If so, please e-mail me the date and any other misc info you have about it.
		
						Thanks,

						Bill Menees
						menees@utkvx.utk.edu
From: lfd@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (Lee Derbenwick)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: SF about doing science ?
Summary: Bogus science more realistic than the real thing.
Keywords: Don't read _Twistor_
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:39:02 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr13.192036.6462@cs.brown.edu>, cgy@cs.brown.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
> In article <4160@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu> jhh@cosmic.physics.ucsb.edu writes:
> >
> >Well, I tried to read Cramer's _Twistor_ over the weekend, and hated
> >it.
> >
> >For one thing, many of the science details were just plain wrong.  It
> >is quite distressing seeing such major mistakes from a real physicist.
> >He must not attend too many department colloquims.
> >
> [mucho glaring examples deleted]
> 
> It's interesting that, if so much of Cramer's science was indeed bogus, that
> most people who liked _Twistor_ did so because the science was so
> realistic.  It suggests that the most effective way to write hard sf is not
> to do some research and get the science right, but to simply make it all up
> as you go along.  Any decent writer can invent "scientific" details that
> sound realer than the real thing; since most readers are non-specialists,
> it's foolish not to.

I haven't read _Twistor_, but I've seen similar examples elsewhere.

C. J. Cherryh's _Downbelow Station_ includes some strange physics:

 - Long, narrow spaceships hanging sideways by the nose at the edge
   of a spinning space station.
 - Same ships, while spinning about their long axis, being easily
   maneuverable.
 - The background of early exploration with conventional-drive
   robot ships happens amazingly fast, given that the ships were
   supposed to stay sub-light.

She won the Hugo for it.

Larry Niven has noted that the mass required for "Neutron Star"
would be, ummmm, slightly excessive.

Even in fantasy, Donaldson's apparent use of a thesaurus to get
more words for "sword", used as synonyms even when they describe
totally different types of sword, has impressed many readers with
his "rich use of language".

Hmmmm.  Looks like you _are_ better off (if you want to sell lots
of books) just making it all up, but describing the made-up stuff
in enough detail that it sounds real to people who don't know
what you're talking about.

But it's awful tough to sustain a sense of wonder while
screaming, "No, you idiot!" at a book's author.  :-(

 -- Speaking strictly for myself,
 --   Lee Derbenwick, AT&T Bell Laboratories, Warren, NJ
 --   lfd@cbnewsm.ATT.COM  or  <wherever>!att!cbnewsm!lfd

 "I'm willing to suspend my disbelief,
  but not hang it by the neck until dead."
From: nesiusra@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHH!
Keywords: ARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH!
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:20:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.45011
Distribution: na


For how many more weeks are you guys going to tell us 
that Asimov is dead??
I realize that there is often a delay between the poster
posting an article and my server receiving it, but this much
of one?  I highly doubt it!
Let him R.I.P., and stop wasting net resources posting something
that's been posted 25 times.

Rob
From: jhitch@crash.cts.com (Jeffrey Hitchin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Star Trek "Novels"
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:23:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: crash.1992Apr08.032336.25646
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

[article deleted]

	I have to agree about _The Disinherited_.  Not only is the plot
bad, the writing sucks.  I went into that on r.a.s.c, so I'm not going
to expound further here.

	What I wanted to say addresses Probe.  I met Margaret Wander
Bonnano at a con recently and paraphrased, this is mostly what she
had to say about it:

	After she turned in the first draft, they asked for revisions.
However, they weren't going to let her do it, so they paid JM Dillard
to rewrite it.  She rewrote it once, then they asked her to rewrite
it again.  She did, then Dave Stern, the ST editor at Pocket, put
in his two cents (like Kirk kicking the shit out of six Klingons),
and it went to Paramount.  However, MWB placed some booby traps in
the manuscript like a small character that is obviously Roddenberry
in a not-too-flattering scene.

	Well, Dillard missed it and made the character into a major
bad guy.  Stern missed it and sent it in.  R'nold caught it and
cancelled the novel.  Then a year later, they decided they needed
a money-maker badly, so they had Gene DeWeese take the bare bones
of Margaret's novel and rewrite it from the ground up, totally
throwing out anything from the original novels and making up a 
totally new plot.  They then released it. 

	The problem is that they think that only women read Trek
and that they want to see Kirk do heroic things, get laid a few
times, and just generally be the hero that saves everybody's butt.
Of course, they are wrong.  They also think that even though
women are the only ones that READ Trek, only men can WRITE it.
Hah!  Right!  Sure!

	So the previous assessment is correct.  They believe that
Trek is pulp fiction best produced in mass quantities for fans
that don't know any better.  If this makes you mad, write to
Irwin Applebaum at Pocket Books (the address is in any Pocket
Book) and tell him that you and your friends will stop buying these
books unless steps are taken.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science
From: wyant@eplrx7.es.duPont.com (Pat Wyant)
Subject: Isaac Asimov died on Monday
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: Asimov
Organization: DuPont Engineering Physics Laboratory
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:56:11 GMT

Heard on the radio (National Public Radio) this morning (4/6/92):


  Isaac Asimov died at University Hospital in Boston today.


I would bet that NPR will have a retrospective of Asimov's career
during their evening news ("All Things Considered").
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: csmith@onetouch.COM (Craig Smith)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Organization: MCS/OneTouch, Inc.
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 14:29:28 GMT
Keywords: Steven Brust

Anyone have any idea where Steven Brust is going with Vlad Taltos?

I feel bad about his breakup with Cawti, as well as his self-imposed
exile.  And will the Jhereg leave his grandfather in peace?
-- 
| Sincerely,
|    __                     ()
|   /  )                    /\             _/_ /
|  /    __  __.  o _,      /  )  ______  o /  /_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: eah4@po.CWRU.Edu (Elizabeth A. Hlabse)
Subject: Re: Looking for Information on Diane Duane's "The Door into Fire" series
Reply-To: eah4@po.CWRU.Edu (Elizabeth A. Hlabse)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 18:08:48 GMT


In a previous article, v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) says:

>
>     In case somebody out there missed my other post (and since
>     I got no responses about it), has anyone read two books
>     called "The Door into Fire" and "The Door into Shadow" by
>     Diane Duane (author of _Spock's World_ and several bestselling
>     Star Trek novels and more recently, the _SpaceCop_ series
>     which she co-writes with her husband (?))???
>
>     I know Duane planned two sequels (and the first two are newly
>     in print again...) both with "Door" in the title.  Anybody
>     know anything about these books?  

I loved these two books and have been looking for the next book(s?) for
what seems like years.  I HATE open ends and this is a major open end.
Pleae, please, please, if anyone in netland knows if there are other
books out there in this series, post isbn's.  Thanks.



-- 
          Beth Hlabse    eah4@po.CWRU.Edu     Assistant Sysop
             The Science Fiction and Fantasy Sig (GO SCIFI)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
             I Brake for Holograms (and Quantum Physicists).
From: gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Elspeth (Mercedes Lackey)
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:58:00 GMT
Organization: Centre Interuniversitaire en Calcul Mathematique Algebrique

In article <1992Apr07.081602.22201@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean
Eric Fagan) writes:

>On a related topic, if the Companians are Guardian Spirits, like the
>Shin'a'in equivalent, where do they come from?  They are Sword-Sworn who
>have been dead for at least a century, but what about the Companions?  It
>seems terribly unlikely that they are dead Heralds 8-).

They've got names like Savil and Jaysen though. Seems sort of familiar...
--
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University 
                  gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Re: Looking for Information on Diane Duane's "The Door into Fire" series
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 02:07:23 GMT

In <1992Apr15.013413.18382@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:


>     In case somebody out there missed my other post (and since
>     I got no responses about it), has anyone read two books
>     called "The Door into Fire" and "The Door into Shadow" by
>     Diane Duane (author of _Spock's World_ and several bestselling
>     Star Trek novels and more recently, the _SpaceCop_ series
>     which she co-writes with her husband (?))???

Yep!  Real nice books, too....waiting for the sequels, sigh.

>     I know Duane planned two sequels (and the first two are newly
>     in print again...) both with "Door" in the title.  Anybody
>     know anything about these books?

Zip.

>     (BTW: she is working on a TNG hardcover about the dark-reflection
>     parallel universe in the TOS episode "Mirror Mirror" called
>     _Through a Glass Darkly_, if anyone is interested...)


(The real reason I'm following up.)

I should hope that's not the title insofar as Kathleen Koen has
already written a book with that same title...

--Cindy

--
Cindy Tittle Moore

Internet: tittle@ics.uci.edu       | BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:     ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle | Usnail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Saberhagen's Book of Swords
Date: 7 Apr 92 09:11:28 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen


Have you read The Empire of the East? This is a much better
story than any of the Books of Swords. It is also a real
trilogy, unlike TBoS, which are really three losely connected
novels.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Difference Engine: Request for Information
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1992 21:46:29 GMT

In article <0w-j6npdoug@netcom.com> doug@netcom.com (Doug Merritt) writes:

>No s**t! You have to be a Victorian scholar to catch the point of the
>research they did in building up the background.

I don't believe this is true. I do think you have to read more than
science fiction, though.

>And please don't tell me about Babagge, I know all about *that*. How about
>the reference to burning mummies by the tons, O thou who were about to
>flame me?

That really happened.

>Or how about the modern whore's personality and habits dressed in Victorian
>clothing?

I'm not sure which aspects of her personality and habits you regard as
particularly "modern." Please specify. 
>
>And the ending was a complete snow-job, regardless of your background. Oops,
>aside from those who think that breaking the contract with the reader is
>brilliantly creative art.

As a lawyer, I'm surprised to have missed any "contract" in this book,
much less the breaking of a contract. Perhaps you can be more specific?

>Actually I liked the beginning, I just wish they hadn't wimped out on taking
>it somewhere.

To me the ending seems well-wrought and perfectly suited to what it
follows.



--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,     |"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis
mnemonic@eff.org | qu'on a perdus."
(617) 864-0665   | 
EFF, Cambridge   |          --Marcel Proust
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Steven Brust
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 19:34:23 GMT

 Craig> == Craig Smith <csmith@onetouch.COM> 

 Craig> Excuse me, people.  If I wanted to find someone who wanted to discuss
 Craig> the Vlad Taltos novels by Steven Brust, where would I post the message?

This is a pretty good place; there was a discussion not too long ago,
but don't let that stop you.

(What's this I hear about another book set in Dragaera, but without Vlad
narrating?  And no, I'm not talking about _The Phoenix Guards_, I know
about that one; I'm also not talking about _Brokedown Palace_, which is,
strictly speaking, not set in Dragaera ;-)
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
From: steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Irish/Celtic Fantasy
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:54:06 GMT
	<STEINARB.92Apr13154255@spirea.idt.unit.no>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim, Norway

>>>>> On 13 Apr 92 15:42:55, steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang) said:

> Particularily that scene where Long relaxes into the chair with a
> volume of Knuth's "AoCP" and "Compilers Principles and Tools" (Get
                                ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^

Damn! Should be: "Compilers Principles, Techniques, and Tools"

- Steinar
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: Elspeth (Mercedes Lackey)
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 08:16:02 GMT

It's possible some of the below could be construed as spoilers.  Read at
your own risk.

In article <1992Apr7.034932.20243@nic.umass.edu> s5223927@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Daniel Lescohier) writes:
>	I think that is very unlikely.  If Vanyel was reincarnated, I
>think that the people living near the Forest of Sorrows would have
>noticed.  

But they have.  To be precise, mages are able to get their spells across
into Valdemar.  The only defense against mages we've seen is the vrondi, and
there are ways around them.

>And if you've read "Magic's Price" and "Winds of Fate," it
>is pretty clear "who" is "mucking with Valdemarian minds:" and it's not
>Vanyel.

I assume that it is Stefan, no?  Or, at least, that's who you think it is.

Consider this:  Vanyel is reincarnated, but Stefan is not.  Stefan is left
behind, to do what he has been doing, namely, trying to muck with the minds
of the Valdemarians, and, more importantly, prevent mages from entering the
Forest of Sorrows.  Meanwhile, Vanyel is no longer around, and can no longer
direct magical attacks against intruders in the Forest, and, worse, cannot
*protect* Valdemar from magical attacks.

This describes, I think, pretty well what seems to be happening with
Valdemar right now, doesn't it?  For some reason, it has been determined
that Valdemar is ready to have Herald-Mages again, so Vanyel is
reincarnated, and gets ready to become the First Herald-Mage, and start
teaching the rest of them, as they show up and get Chosen.

It is, admittedly, a pretty shaky theory.  But I couldn't get it out of my
mind, and I would not be surprised, at all, if it there are some subtle and
otherwise clues in the next two books indicating that.

On a related topic, if the Companians are Guardian Spirits, like the
Shin'a'in equivalent, where do they come from?  They are Sword-Sworn who
have been dead for at least a century, but what about the Companions?  It
seems terribly unlikely that they are dead Heralds 8-).

>	However, I think that it is pretty likely that Elspeth is a
>descendent of Vanyel, through Jisa.

Oh, that's almost a given.  There was a comment, I think, in one or two of
the books that said something about Elspeth being a direct descendent from
Elspeth Peacemaker, which would pretty much indicate that Jisa was involved
somewhere, wouldn't it?

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "One form to rule them all, one form to find them, one
sef@kithrup.COM  |  form to bring them all and in the darkness rewrite the
-----------------+  hell out of them" -- sendmail ruleset 3 comment from DEC.
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.