HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:23:26 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <fTC57qk@quack.sac.ca.us>, pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
wrote:
> 
> In article <ksand-061092185313@wintermute.apple.com> 
> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >Eh? We are the most intelligent animal on this planet, and also 
> >mostly responsible for the ecological mess. It has nothing to
> >do with crutches, it's a fact.
 
> Very good. I knew you would like this free will stuff. Jah! Ras TafarI,
> eh?

I don't need any stinking Ras TafarI to figure that out, man. All I 
need is a fully functional human brain.

> >Yes, it's true, the family should take responsibility of me until 
> >I'm old enough to take care of myself.
> 
> Oh really? And when will that be?  :::B^}

When I don't screw up. Note how much humankind in general is good
at destroying their environment, starting wars, and killing innocent
people and animals. I would never let such a dangerous animal loose.

> Failure is nothing to be ashamed of. When one walks the freedom walk,
> one will sometimes fall on one's face. But, there is no need for shame.
> Learn from your failures, that is the only way to learn. Doing the right
> thing is not easy, but what else is there for us to do? Surely you don't
> propose that we be puppets on a string, slaves to an all knowing slave
> master? There is a time to grow up and that time is now. In whose image
> were we created any how?

According to the theist doctrines we are created in the image of God.
Think about this...

>> I never defined God as a landlord! The transcendent is transcendent and
> that certainly includes transcendence over landlord-renter
> relationships. Keep at that freedom talk though, you'll get the hang of
> it.  ::B^}
 
Could be stop this crap about trancedental virtual definitions. It's just
a smoke screeen. It seems you are trying to avoid the real issues, man.

> >> I don't care who the guy is, I know my right.
> >> How about you Kent, do you know your right?
> >> The right to stand, and the right to fall?
> >> The right to succeed, and the right to fail?
> >> The right to live, and the right to die?
> 
> >I find it interesting that when one's own faith is poor, the
> >individual falls into a sermon mode in order to convert the
> >other side using plain faith. How pathetic. Please, could 
> >we stick to logical reasoning instead of evangelical mumbo-jumbo,
> >thanks?
> 
> What is non-logical about the above statements?

Can't we stick to issues, instead of mumbo-jumbo, thanks?

Cheers,
Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Joseph a true latter-day prophet
Summary: Must all accounts be perfect?
Keywords: LDS, Mormon, Joseph Smith
Date: 13 Oct 92 06:26:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct12.192217.22171@cbnews.cb.att.com>, wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes...
> 
>As I was continuing to collect the Daily LDS Bashing to see if there is
>anything significant to add to my response, I read Robert Weiss' critique
>of the various accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision. Based on what Mr.
>Weiss chooses to relate and what he fails to discuss I am assuming that
>his source is based on the Tanners' material (which was composed around
>1968).

	Willard,

		No, I didn't get this from the Tanners. I didn't even 
get a chance to peruse their offerings on the first vision. Or 
subsequent re-visions, for that matter.

	I thank you for your references, and will request them 
through inter-library loan.


=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18185 alt.peeves:15578 alt.politics.correct:5673
From: S.S.B.Glover@bradford.ac.uk (SSB GLOVER)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.peeves,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Too Political?
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:44:49 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92909131@ccw309

In article <1992Oct08.145353.503@sco.COM> charless@sco.COM (Charlie Stross) writes:
>
>In article <BvrJ2B.G0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>>
>>   Good thing there are all those trim young men in not-so-funny army
>>uniforms to protect the lives of at least some of those ordinary
>>people from being impinged on.  You know, the ones who, when a priest
>>walks by, will stick a machine gun in his face from inside an armoured
>>personnel carrier.
>>
>This may sound cynical, but frankly you stand more chance of being run
>over by a car than being killed in a terrorist incident in NI. My
>theory is that the soldiers are sent there for training purposes ... in
>case they're ever needed on the mainland.

Peeve: people who believe Noraid style propaganda...

As person of irish extraction living in England, I get enough headache with
brits who don't understand the situation without would be helpful americans
mucking in. Whatever happened to the Munroe doctrine, and should it not
work both ways??

extraPeeve: went along to Bradford Uni irish soc last night. NO, the peeve
isn't that it's run by a bunch of yuppie english undergraduates (female), or
even that they're mostly just there for the annual Dublin weekend, or even
the interest in "irish" music, but that am IRISH society (if that's not a
tautology) should be one of the most likely to adjourn to the Bar...

And did they? HAH!! Of course, there's a "punch and peanut" event later in
the term...

This is obviously a special case of:

Peeve: societies run for benefit of organisers rather than punters. (In fact
as a special case, BUIS is a *lot* less dangerous than the Cabinet, the
Tory Party, the Church(es), OPEC <IYFO>

Steve Glover

PS what's all this about charlie stross only being 82% original?
From: don@chester (Don McCoy)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Is it Christian values or chauvinism?
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:11:19 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware, College of Marine Studies

>
>Karl
>------
>"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand,
> Shown how to feel good, and told to feel bad."

Karl, not to nit-pick, but you might attribute your quote there. :)

(It's from Roger Waters, _The Final Cut_, for those interested.)
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18416 alt.atheism:19104
From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:31:34 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <70562@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>In article <13715@pogo.wv.tek.com> daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:
>>solely on the basis of sexual orientation.  So, to put the question more
>>clearly Richard, if you were a voter in Oregon, would you vote for this
>>initiative?
>
>Yes.  
>
>Have you forgot to mention the threats the opposition have made
>to those who support the bill?  I've read and heard a little more
>since the last postings.


  I think your missing an Oregon view Richard. This initiative has
divided Oregon in a very distructive way. For instance, because they
DO NOT support measure 9, churches are being vandalized by pro
OCA terrorists. These are not threats mind you. These are actual
attacks that are being carried out upon those in opposition to
measure 9.

  From my perspective, God can be compared to a Master Gardner. And
all Master Gardners know that the best way to prevent weeds is to
plant more flowers. In my opinion, Christ can be likened to a Master
Gardner. Christ did not go around pulling weeds. He operated by means
of a planter of flowers. He went amoung the sinners and planted flowers
by helped them.

  The OCA, by its flavor of operations, is acting like a puller of weeds.
In so doing, it has created an atmosphere where division and even hate 
can be, and is, being created. That is, from my perspective, not the
way Christ operated. Because of that, I have to laugh when the OCA brings
up Bible passages on why one must vote for measure 9. I have even heard
from Christians that if a person really is a good Christian, they should 
vote for passage of this measure.

  Personally, I don't think that Jesus would vote for it's passage. He
would rather just get out there and help others of their hurt and 
pains that life, and other people have dropped upon them. He is a planter
of flowers.

  You point towards threats the oppostion has made. Personally, I have
not heard of any. Though, because of all of the heat that has been
generated around this divisive issus here in Oregon, I'm sure that there 
has been something, that someone, somewhere  been said that can be
construed as a threat by the opposition.

  Regardless of any of that though, Dave did ask you a question. And
you seem to have tried to slip away from an answer. 

  Now have you heard about the x-rated video that the OCA has been
showing to "children" at the various churches around the state? 




        The saints are what they are, not because their sancity makes
        them admirable to others, but because of the gift of sainthood
        makes it possible for them to admire everybody else.
                                        Thomas Merton


	David Hatcher


Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative
Summary: People who feel threatened react.
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:02:16 GMT


There has been a lot of discussion about proposed rules in Oregon which are
seen by some as limiting the rights of homosexual people.

Much to my own embarrassment, some Christians in talk.religion.misc are
speaking in favor of these proposed rules.  Tom Albrecht said that the US
Constitution does not guarantee rights to `sexual perversion', as if that
should be the last word for Christians on this issue.

As a Christian, I am opposed to government interference with other people in
most cases -- I do not know of a single word from the New Testament that tells
Christians to try controlling other people.

I can understand restricting someone else's rights in the event that what he
wants to do will directly harm an unwilling party; but it hasn't been
demonstrated that granting legal recognition to homosexuals will cause such
harm.  Even in the case of outlawing murder, we are going beyond what the
Bible tells Christians to do, though we may have a reasonable justification.
What justification have we got for things that don't harm unwilling parties?
Where does Jesus tell us to take over the world and control other people?
What Biblical passages support having the church prostitute itself with the
civil government?


Mr Albrecht quoted some source saying that homosexuals have threatened to
start killing Christians if the OCA initiative passes next month.  I am not
happy about that, of course, but those who support the OCA should not be
astonished -- Jesus plainly tells us that "he who lives by the sword shall
die by the sword".

Christians throughout history have engaged in horrible abuses of other people.
As a group, we have one of the single worst reputations in all of history --
and it is a well-deserved reputation.  I'm a Christian, and these radial
conservative would-be dictators frighten me no end; to someone who is a target
of these groups, they probably seem like Nazis.

So long as Christians are perceived by others as evil -- and we are, with good
justification -- we have no business telling them how to behave.  When we get
our own house in order and begin living so that others see God through us, we
might have some justification for telling them what to do.

As it stands, I think these `Christian nation' movements are cases of the
blind trying to lead the nearsighted.  Christians haven't behaved as well as
the non-Christians do; is it any surprise that non-Christians don't want us to
dictate morality?


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"We would all be Christians were it not for the Christians." -- Gandhi
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:49:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.224026.59651@cc.usu.edu>, slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
[...]
> That's why the best way is to "love your enemies, bless them that
> curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
> despitefully use you and persecute you".
> 
Good advice Jason! Now, can you tell me some of the lost secrets
of the original twelve apostles without accusing me of stirring
up strife? 

barry--
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Spin doctor... [was Re: Mormon Usenet Forum
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:28:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <13OCT199201033305@acad3.alaska.edu>, ksjwr@acad3.alaska.edu (REDELSS JOHN W) writes...

>I would like a newsgroup specifically for Mormon related discussion.  

	You could try mormon-l@byuvm. It is a moderated mailing list.

>I would
>like even better a place where Mormons could meet on Usenet and meet with each
>other rather than spend most of their time defending themselves from vicious
>attacks. 

	I find this a curious rendition of what has been going on. You 
came on and mentioned that some were not ready for the `full truth,' 
and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I posted particulars 
concerning this `visitation,' from LDS historical sources, and this is 
now referenced as a `vicious attack.' There was nothing vicious in the 
reply. Although it was contrary to what you had written. However, 
contrary does not mean vicious. In fact, what was posted was very 
even-tempered, aside from the fact that it shot holes in one of Joseph 
Smith's accounts.

	If you need to be insulated from the truth, and consider
posting from LDS sources as vicious attacks, perhaps it is time to 
examine what your foundation is resting on. If you flinch from the 
truth, you do not have the truth to begin with.


> Some of these Mormon bashers are reminiscent of the hate mongers that
>stirred up the mob that shot the Prophet.  It's a good thing they are scattere
>around the country on computer terminals.  If they ever got into the same room,
>things could get ugly.

	I promise to shave and get a haircut. That should cut down on 
the ugliness factor.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:10:03 GMT
Summary: no more contributions to Pat

In article <ldpj3lINNb2t@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh) writes:
>  
>  
>    No on 9 Campaign: The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon
>  
>         PO Box 3343 Portland, OR 97208 (503) 2324501
>  
>  
> "In October, the Oregon Citizens Alliance became the Oregon
> chapter of Christian Coalition, a national political
> organization association with former presidential candidate
> and Christian Broadcasting president, Pat Robertson.
>  
I stopped contributing to CBN some time ago, but I still get their
materials sent to my home. I was taken back when I discovered Pat
was behind this initiative. None of their materials ever mentioned
OCA or anything related to it.
Now I am sending their contribution cards back marked in large black
marker. No contributions for Pat, stop OCA.

barry--
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:20:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct10.170921.59590@cc.usu.edu>, slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
> In article <1992Oct10.031759.27535@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>,
>  press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
> [...]
> > Do you recall my posting what your prophets taught? It matters
> > little to me what you believe. The important part is what the
> > prophets(LDS) taught. 
> 
> So, it doesn't matter how actual Mormons interprete and
> *implement* the words of their leaders.  What matters is how
> non-Mormons interprete these same words.  Thus the non-Mormon
> interpretation is the *only* correct way to understand Mormonism.
> And the beliefs of actual Mormons are meaningless, irrelevant,
> and non-representative.

The problem is this. Joseph Smith Jr. comes on the scene and
shortly thereafter begins to take the christian interpretations
for his own use, and re-applying them to what he thinks they
mean, telling people that he has the correct interpretation.
The non-mormon(or christian in most cases)reads the interpretations
of the same scriptures and comes away with a big Huh? the non-
mormon(or in most cases, the christian)attempts to show that the
lds prophets are way out of line with the cristian scriptures. the
lds says(like Jason), do you presume to know the interpretations
better than the lds? The twisted logic is the result of endless
confusion and heal digging.
The beliefs of mormons(as being non-representative)carries some
weight, because the beliefs are as fluid as oil, and just as evasive.
When the typical lds defender is cornered on certain opinions
they have about their beliefs, the fall back is, it's not cannon.
He, He. So yes, many christians believe they can read the words of
your prophets and conclude what they are saying, as well as non-
cristians. It is probably painful for the lds to read these things,
and they lash out. Before you invoke "christianity had done this
with the Jewish scriptures", let me remind you we have been through
that several times, and the circumstances are quite different.
So, is this the opening of another endless round of hurt lashing
out? I'm sorry, but your(generic)vocalness needs to be countered
and tempered. You would say the same for the o.christians, and
endless debates continue.

We now return to our regular programming until the second coming-

barry--
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:18361 alt.politics.homosexuality:6450 alt.sex:33026 soc.singles:27808
From: thatcha@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Alexander Thatcher)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex,soc.singles
Subject: Re: The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon
Summary: The Facts, Babe, Just the facts
Date: 15 Oct 92 06:51:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: CS.1992Oct15.065149.26864
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.


Whoa, that article was not only big but was chock full of information
that any well informed voter/activist/conversationalist should know!

Yet, it was also inflated, overbearing, and in parts wildly exagerated.
As opposed to picking apart the post, and straightening out the post-er,
wethought that people might want to read the measure itself, with out the
hype.

Half the duo behinf this post is for, half against.  But we both agree,
if were gonna debate the infamous measure 9, lets stick the truth and not
the propoganda.

FROM THE OREGON VOTERS PAMPHLET:

SECTION 41(1):  This state shall not recognize any categorical provisions such
as "sexual orientation", "sexual preference," and similar phrases that includes
homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism, or masochism.  Quotas, minority status, 
affirmitive action, or any similar concepts shall not apply to these forms of
conduct, nor shall government promote these behaviors.

	  (2):  State, regional, and local governments and their properties 
pedophilia, sadism, or masochisim.   

	  (3):  State, regional, and local governments, and their departments,
agencies, and other entities, including specifically the State Department
of Higher Education and the public schools, shall assist in setting a standard
for Oregon's youth that recognizes homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism, 
masochism as abnormal, wrong, unnatural, and perverse, and that these behaviors
are to be discouraged and avoided.

	  (4):  It shall be considered it is the intent of the people in 
enacting this section that if any part thereof is held unconstitutional,
the remaining parts shall be held in force.


That's all folks.


Ponti and Alex - the Decisive Duo
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: re: Christians are being duped!
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:14:07 GMT

Hypnotic regression.  HA HA HA. HE HE HE.  That's a good one.  Don't you know
that hypnotic regression, ESP, and other psychic phenomina are tools of Satan? 
It is you Hindi (I think that's the right word) that are being duped.
--Ray Cote
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 15 Oct 92 01:56:30 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler) writes:

> Richard, thank you for answering the question, and telling us that you do
> support the OCA's initiative (Measure 9).  This is quite consistent with your
> statement that you wish to be able to terminate employment of any homosexual
> that might deal with customers.  Of course you realize that I consider you a
> bigot for promoting such intolerant behavior, ...

Of course, that's intolerant of you to wish to require behavior of him you
find accceptable, but he does not.  So what's the difference?

> I also want to reply to your rather silly accusation that I have been ignorin
> the threats the "opposition" has made to to the OCA:

Silly?

"... homosexuals threatened to begin killing Christians if the initiative
passes next month.  The warning appeared on posters telling voters to vote
no, or else, 'We shoot the fish.'
   The intended targets of the death threats were unmistakable.  The
posters contained a drawing of the traditional symbol of Christianity, the
fish. The Greek word for fish, ixthus, was used in ancient times as an
acrostic to signify, 'Jesus Christ God Son Savior.'  The placards went on
to say that the warnings weren't an idle threat.  If homosexuals lost their
privileged status at the ballot box, the killing would begin.
   I hope the irony of this situation doesn't escape the American public,
particularly those most vocally committed to civil rights.
   In the name of freedom and equality, Christian voters in Oregon
literally will go to the polls in the crosshairs of a rifle. ..."

                                        Robert Moeller
                                        _World_ Magazine
                                        Vol. 7 #20, 10/10/92


--
Tom Albrecht
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The Campaign for a Hate Free Oregon
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:40:42 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Oct15.194825.206@CS.ORST.EDU> thatcha@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Alexander Thatcher) writes:
>
>I don't support measure 9, but I refuse to take part in false propoganda
>and scare tactics to see it defeated.  That tends to be the OCA's method
>of getting things done.
>

  While the OCA hasn't started a guerilla war, the Portland Police
  Bureau has recorded a more-than-superficial increase in hate
  crimes in the greater metropolitan Portland area since measure 9
  became a political hot potato.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc