From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The purpose and meaning of circumcision
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:56:47 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1894

From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Subject:Re: The purpose and meaning of circumcision
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:52:23 GMT

>>You didn't answer the question.  WHERE did Jesus say the nation of Israel
>>would be "punished by God" for rejecting the Messiah?
> 
>Get real.  I quoted sections of Matthew 23 and 24 and Matthew 27:25.  Now
>you have the gall to ignore the quotes, no comment - no nothing, and then
>come back and ask your question AGAIN.  How many times do I have to answer,
>and how many time will you ignore me?

I'm all for getting real, Tom.  Now where did Jesus REALLY say the nation of
Israel would be punished by God for rejecting Messiah?  I read your quotes --
I didn't see it there.  Would you like to point out exactly where He said
that?

>>>The blood of the prophets, and the blood of the Messiah, was paid for by
>>>that generation.
>>
>>This is really a strange mutation of "Christianity".  ...
> 
>Pay attention to the Bible, Bruce.  I offered texts; Matthew 23:33-24-2;
>Matthew 27:25 (please comment on that one ... don't ignore it again).  It's
>all there in black and white.  Comment on the passages for a change.  Give
>us the benefit of your extensive MJ background and theology.  Or are we
>dealing with a problem of too much "minute detail" again?
> 
>Please how us that you really believe the Bible by dealing with the texts
>now and then, and that you just don't rely on your MJ traditions.

This is a good attempt at obfuscation, but it won't work.  You should've
been a Democratic presidential candidate.  If you're through with your
little diatribe, then answer my question, and quit beating around the bush.
If you can't show where the Bible says Jesus said what you claim He said,
then don't assert that He said it.

If you want to admit that you made an inference, and it's what you think
He *meant*, fine.  We can disagree there.  But now you'd better either show
where He said the nation of Israel would be "punished by God for rejecting
the Messiah", or retract your statement.

Yes, I know the events of 67-70 AD would not have happened if the nation had
repented and turned to God in the Messiah at the time.  But I believe it is
furthering the error of antisemitic early Church leaders to say "Israel was
punished by God for rejecting the Messiah".  The Tanakh clearly tells why
Israel was condemned.  It's the same reason you and I stood condemned.  The
condemnation had already been earned before Yeshua came.  Yeshua would have
been a way out -- as He has been for you and me -- had they accepted God's
forgiveness and repented.  Because Israel did not accept God's Sacrificial Lamb,
and continued in sin, the judgment already earned did indeed come.  And even
so, although the Adversary wanted to destroy the Jews entirely, God insured
that a remnant would be preserved and kept until the restoration of Israel
when they would indeed return to God and Messiah would come.  But it is
important to make the distinction that the Bible says Israel was condemned
for her own sin, *not* for rejecting the payment for that sin.  After all,
Yeshua asked the Father to forgive them for what they did.  Those who claim
that Israel was cursed for rejecting the Messiah play into the hands of those
who call the Jews "Christ killers".  How can anyone understand the gospel
who blames the Jews for killing Jesus?  Such a one has no conception of
why Yeshua came -- he came to die -- or of his own sin, how each of us
richly deserves such condemnation ourselves.  Isaiah 53 says it was God who
put Him to death in our stead, so great is His love for us.  Yeshua died
*for* the Jews; what kind of perversion is it to say God exacted vengeance
on the Jews for what *He* did?  Where would we all be if Messiah had not
died?  And if their rejection of Messiah be life for the goyim, how much
greater will their acceptance of Him be?

Try reading Revelation 12 to see who it is who tries to destroy Israel, as
well as her children (both natural and ingrafted), and who it is who protects
Israel.  (You might also discover that Satan has been cast out of heaven and
is presently in a rampage on the earth.)

So, again, if you can't show us where God said the nation of Israel would
be punished for rejecting the Messiah, then do the right thing and retract
the statement.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic