HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:51:33 GMT

In article <Rsk4PB1w164w@cellar.org> arioch@cellar.org (Arioch) writes:
)I just purchased Dangerous Journeys Mythus fantasy role playing game. So far 
)I am fairly impressed. I am having a little trouble figuring out the magic 
)system. If anyone has purchased the game, what is your impression and/or 
)comments?

As I understand it this is the group where we all jump on what a horrible
game Dangerous Journeys is, rather than actually answer your question 
(half a :-) ).

The descriptions and reviews I've seen of Dangerous Journeys _have_ been
pretty negative, and I don't particularly like Gygax's general design style
personally - it tends to be overcomplex (IMO), and that's just what the
reviewers were saying about DJ.

Anyway, if you really do want help with the game, you might try reposting
to rec.games.frp.misc.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters)
Subject: Re: Battlelords of the 23rd Century
Keywords: GenCon
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:34:38 GMT

In article <BtJzyB.DHw@acsu.buffalo.edu> lnorton@acsu.buffalo.edu (Bluerazor) writes:
>
>	First, apologies if this is a dual posting as my other post seems to
>have died... If it shows up again ignore it...
>

No your posting didn't die.

You included a Moderated group in the header, and it will not hit the net
until it is approved and released by the moderator.  Please see a recent
posting about why this happens.

I normally go through the postings at 16:30 EDT (M-F) and approve or
reject them then.  Sometimes my site is down (just like anyone's), or
someplace the posting gets delayed in getting to me.  When you post to
r.g.f.announce, expect a little delay on the posting.
From: gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU (Christopher Michael Lawyer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: test
Date: 31 Aug 92 00:03:47 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <26AUG199212101480@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>In article <BtJtu6.9M0@acsu.buffalo.edu>, lnorton@acsu.buffalo.edu
> (Me) writes...                                        ^^^^^^^
>
>>	This is only a test. there is no need to read this post nor to relate
>>it to chili. However this will probably capture someone's interest and start
>>a HUGE thread.
>> 
>>Me
>
>Hey you.  Being from Cow-town, what's your opinion of WINGS?
>
>                                                  James S. Zakany

There you go again.  Once again you are trying to drum up
support for that off-beat WINGS system again.  When WINGS 
supporters try to claim that they are CHAMPIONS, we CHILI
eaters MARVEL at their ignorance.  What do you have to 
say about that, Mister James S. Zakany???????????????????

8)




the manatee
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:10:30 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <c1cnhj#.akuma@netcom.com>, akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) writes:
> In article <92240.092406BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu>, BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu (Brian Panulla, MooCow) writes:
>> In my mind, Marvel's QDCS (Quick and Dirty Combat System) leaves a lot of
>> time for role playing and imagination. True, I prefer to play on the Batman/
>> Hawkeye/Captain America power scale of things, but thje game flows fast enough
>> to tell a story, and allow players to actually use witty banter with their
>> opponents instead of being in game-speak mode constantly (like Champions).
> 
> I'm not sure why this is an exclusive feature of Marvel.  In HERO, when
> it is your turn to go, you are free to add in all the banter you want,
> since siloloquies take no time.  In fact, the Presence Attack rules
> encourge the players to come up with good lines.  Likewise, descriptive
> action ("I back-flip onto the desk, leap over his head, bounce off the
> wall and kick him in the back of the head") can easily be added.  The
> GM may even give you bonuses for such actions.  Of course, a bad GM will 
> discourage these things.

	I think what he was refering to has something to do with Champions
players always refering to their abilities in game terms rather than real 
world terms (well, this has been *my* experience with Champs players). 
Champions players will rattle off the stats of an ability, but not what the 
ability actually is. 

Brandon Cope


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: ahabig@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig)
Subject: Re: test
Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:33:51 GMT

In article <26AUG199212101480@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>In article <BtJtu6.9M0@acsu.buffalo.edu>, lnorton@acsu.buffalo.edu
> (Me) writes...                                        ^^^^^^^
>
>>	This is only a test. there is no need to read this post nor to relate
>>it to chili. However this will probably capture someone's interest and start
>>a HUGE thread.
>> 
>>Me
>
>Hey you.  Being from Cow-town, what's your opinion of WINGS?

Now wait a minute - this is going to an obviously biased source.  We should ask
someone from someplace that has no native CHILI or WINGS system for an opinion,
so as not to get an already prejudiced opinion.

	Alec
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:57:36 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle


 > I was very unimpressed, which may have resulted from high expectations.
 > I never got as far as the combat system (a friend did and he claimed it
 > was a bit on the abstract side, but this is heresay) but the character
 > generation rules alone were enough to turn me off.  The three attributes
 > were broken down into eighteen subattributes, the meaning of which were
 > sometimes vague.  It seemed to me that generality of the skills left them
 > open for varying interpretations and may cause problems between GM and
 > players.  The characters I made up seemed flavorless like cardboard.
 > My major point of disappointment was that this new system really didn't
 > offer anything to make me throw my GURPS or D&D books away and embrace
 > this new system.  I'm glad I got my money back.
 >
 > Brendan Dwyer (aka Blackwolf)

I tend to agree with your analysis. The prerelease announcements made this
out to be a step beyond anything we had seen before (or so the hyperbole
appeared.) Instead, it looks like a blended version of several existing
game systems. The only part I actually thought was fairly neat was the system
for computing damage, and how the various bits of armor were customized by
how they protect the different vital ratings. (I.e. each bit of armor has
a different rating for non-vital, vital, etc. You total up the armor ratings
for each vital category, then subtract from the damage against a particular
vital.)

I'd rather have seen a well-developed fantasy world for a successful existing
system, such as GURPS. As it is, Mythus is likely to flop unless GDW is willing
to spend lots of years and bucks popularizing the system.

-- 
 Bob Hall,                 | "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
 Workstation Peripheral    | Then give up. No use being a damn fool about it."
 Boeing Computer Services  |                                     -Groucho Marx
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: test
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:39:00 GMT

In article <Bu0G5A.LM3@rice.edu>, swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes...
>In article <7F1HqB2w164w@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us> tony@phsbbs.princeton.nj.us (Anthony Foglia) writes:
>>spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:
>>> In article <warnold.715361417@nomad.urich.edu>,
>>>  warnold@gossip.urich.edu (William W. Arnold) writes...
>>> 
>>> >>>>the manatee
>>> 
>>> >>>Aren't manatees gawd-awful UGLY things that lurk in swamps?  Yuck!
>>> 
>>> >No, they're the CUTE things that make boat-infested,
>>> >water-skier-diseased coastal waterways, rivers and other such places
>>> >nice.
>>> 
>>> CUTE??!?  They're 'bout as cute as breaded, bearded dwarfin women!
>>> 
>>NOT CUTE? Drunken sailors used to think manatees were meremaids 
>>(non-bearded fish-women).
> 
>  And one of the foundations for Naval Law is that sailors are idiots
>and should be considered wards of the court. 

Now, Now, didn't you know that about 1/3 of the navy comprises
gamers, HARD CORE GAMERS.  Just ask my salty sailor, gaming whore 
(his words) husband.

Does that mean that gamers should be warts of the court?

(Sorry guys, just had to throw a bad one in there)

Tammy
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:59:22 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Brian Panulla writes:
> Marvel allows players to actually use witty banter with their
> opponents instead of being in game-speak mode constantly (like Champions).

Steven E Barnes writes:
> I'm not sure why this is an exclusive feature of Marvel.  In HERO, when
> it is your turn to go, you are free to add in all the banter you want,

Brandon Cope writes:
>I think what he was refering to has something to do with Champions
>players always refering to their abilities in game terms rather than real 
>world terms (well, this has been *my* experience with Champs players). 

In *my* experiences with Champs players (being one, running them, and
being friends with them) we care quite a great deal about the 'real
world' effects of "what is happening" as opposed to "what rule did he
use?" Champs, like many other RPGs can be very easily taken as a man-to-
man combat system. Most of the players I know take great care not to 
allow it to lose the human (and 'real world') element.

I would beg not to be considered a Champs player if that is your opinon
of them. Please don't make generalizations.

-- 
What garlic is to food, insanity is to art.
Organization: Penn $tate Univer$ity
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 09:16:52 EDT
From: Brian Panulla, MooCow <BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
 <92240.092406BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu> <c1cnhj#.akuma@netcom.com>
 <1992Aug27.161030.708@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>

In article <1992Aug27.161030.708@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
says:
>
>In article <c1cnhj#.akuma@netcom.com>, akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
>writes:
>> In article <92240.092406BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu>, BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu (Brian
>Panulla, MooCow) writes:
>>> In my mind, Marvel's QDCS (Quick and Dirty Combat System) leaves a lot of
>>> time for role playing and imagination. True, I prefer to play on the
>Batman/
>>> Hawkeye/Captain America power scale of things, but thje game flows fast
>enough
>>> to tell a story, and allow players to actually use witty banter with their
>>> opponents instead of being in game-speak mode constantly (like Champions).
>>
>> I'm not sure why this is an exclusive feature of Marvel.  In HERO, when
>> it is your turn to go, you are free to add in all the banter you want,
>> since siloloquies take no time.  In fact, the Presence Attack rules
>> encourge the players to come up with good lines.  Likewise, descriptive
>> action ("I back-flip onto the desk, leap over his head, bounce off the
>> wall and kick him in the back of the head") can easily be added.  The
>> GM may even give you bonuses for such actions.  Of course, a bad GM will
>> discourage these things.
>
>        I think what he was refering to has something to do with Champions
>players always refering to their abilities in game terms rather than real
>world terms (well, this has been *my* experience with Champs players).
>Champions players will rattle off the stats of an ability, but not what the
>ability actually is.
>
EXACTLY. When we play MSH, we talk as though we are super heroes, not
scientists (unless that is more appropriate). It is much harder for a Champs
player to maintain a character during the game; too often you switch into
technical discussion of what a power can and can't do. In MSH, the GM either
allows a power stunt (if the player is attempting something new) or doesn't
allow the action unless it's already a part of the hero's bag of tricks.

I think Superheroing is much more of a beer-and-pretzels genre than dark grit,
unless you are running a cyberpunk hero campaign or some such.

Myself and my players derive great pleasure from saying cheezy things like:
"Don't worry...I'LL SAVE YOU!" :)

>Brandon Cope
>
>


______
Brian Panulla                                              Hail Sinfonia!
bjp108 @ psuvm.psu.edu / ender @ vivaldi.psu.edu / ender @ wilbur.psu.edu
(The opinions expressed above are mine alone, and do not reflect those of)
(Penn State University, or the Center for Academic Computing, so there!  )
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:07:43 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <24AUG199214070957@rosie.uh.edu>, lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
> In article <marrou.714244942@eola.cs.ucf.edu>, marrou@cs.ucf.edu (Lance R. Marrou) writes...
>>af2e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Alex Feely) writes:
>> 
>>>Hello,
>>>I just joined this bboard, but I'd like to say somthing. Has anyone
>>>heard of MARVEL SUPER HEROES! I'm not looking for a game, right now I
>>>play AD&D2, But this is a good game published by tsr, It's even been in
>>>DRAGON magazine. It's high time people recognize it for what it is. It's
>>>far SUPERior to any other comic role-playing system. 
>>     ^^^^^^^^
>> 
>>Not!!!  Champions is _much_ better!!
>> 
> 
> Ditto!

	I put my vote for MSH. A comic RPG shouldn't be a tactical wargame using
individual units (for some reason refered to as characters) that min-maxers
bleed for everything they can.

	Sorry, if this is what I see from Chumpions players, this is how I have
to view the game.

Brandon Cope

ps. MSH is also *a lot* easier to play.

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.misc
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Matthew D. Goldman)
Subject: Re: Alignments
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:16:21 CDT

In article <KETIL.92Sep2170534@struts.ii.uib.no> ketil@ii.uib.no writes:
>
>Oh Gods, the Alignment Discussion again!
>
>Oh well, 
>
>It i obvious for the experienced netter/player that ADD alignment
>system sucks.  Isn't it?

No.  My players have not had any problems with it.  We've always seen
alignment as a tool, and even sometimes as a plot device, never as a
straitjacket.

>                          I mean, just the fact that among us in 
>netland, I don't think there are two persons who agrees completely on
>how to interpret alignments.  

That's what the DM is for.

>Ever hear the phrase:  ...a tool, not a straitjacket?   Well,
>usually it ends up being the latter, "can I do this when I am lawful?"
>
>Conclusion: Throw it into the swamp!

Naw, throw your players into the swamp! :-) 

-- 
Matthew Goldman          E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com
Fax: (612) 683-3099                 Work: (612) 683-3061
"There is nothing wrong with the software that rm won't cure."
		-Arnie Romo
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: arioch@cellar.org (Arioch)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Dangerous Journeys
Date: 26 Aug 92 04:54:02 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

I just purchased Dangerous Journeys Mythus fantasy role playing game. So far 
I am fairly impressed. I am having a little trouble figuring out the magic 
system. If anyone has purchased the game, what is your impression and/or 
comments?

------
arioch@cellar.org (Arioch)
The Cellar BBS - (215) 654-9184
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:50:47 -0700
 <1992Aug25.160320.24898@iadpsa.safe.ia.gov> <1992Aug25.162822.28974@walter.cray.com>

In article <1992Aug25.162822.28974@walter.cray.com>, goldman@orac.CRAY.COM (Matthew D. Goldman) writes:
> In article <1992Aug25.160320.24898@iadpsa.safe.ia.gov> vernon@iadpsa.safe.ia.gov (	Mark Vernon - DSB	) writes:
>> Maybe but it's still true. EGG is a self-important twit.
> 
> Perhaps; however, lots of people know who you are talking about if you
> say 'EGG', I can't say the same for 'MDG'.
> 
> Matt
> -- 

Yeah, well, everyone's heard  of Hitler too but I don't see it as much
of a compliment. The way EGG lost control of TSR sheds alot of light
on his character flaws. Apparently he never considered the possibility
that his ex-wife might *actually* consider divorcing the "Great One"!

PHIL
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: Dwarf Women with bears, Not!
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:38:45 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains

In article <66917@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>In article <l9nbv7INNsp@phad.hsc.usc.edu> esharpe@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Ed Sharpe) writes:

>>In an early dragon magazine (35?) the final word was given on dwarvish female 
>>breads:  Unless you have dwarvish bread catcher traps in your games it does
>>not matter if female dwarves have breads.

>What's a bread catcher trap?

Obviously, it's a device that a cultured dwarf attaches to his (her) face
and hangs down over the beard, so when they eat bread around the campfire
they don't walk around all the next day with crumbs.

-- 
Matthew DeLuca                      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their 
Georgia Institute of Technology      P.O. box."
Office of Information Technology                - Zebediah Carter, 
Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu              _The Number of the Beast_
From: phi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Steven Mancini)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: Character After-life
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:58:28 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>Are you kidding!?!  I thought everyone kept notebooks
>upon notebooks of old characters, living and dead, like
>a family album.  Ready to be boasted about, resurected
>at times, or to spawn new characters from.
>:-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
>==>Tammy<==

YOU MEAN I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO DOES THIS!
Wow, what a relief. :-)

Anyway, I recently lost a dear soul of a characer in
Shadowrun, BUT!  According to the rules, there is no such
thing as resurrection in SRUN, but my GM came up with this
complicated ritual where someone, IF certain conditions were 
met, could be raised.
  When he died, he was on the run to get some of the knowledge 
needed for this very same ritual.  So, he kinda had the fore-
Shadowing, pardon the pun, to sorta realize that he may be coming
back.  Anyway, his body died while he was astrally projecting.
(A sam's spur to the head does that to mages with a 2 body.)
He had his Essence in hours before he died.  He used them to his best 
advantage.  First, he ordered his elementals to destroy the sam's.
I believe his exact wording was: "Burn them till there's not even 
ashes left!"
  Then he hightailed it back to Seattle to say goodbye to his
love fair! (An owl shaman)  Then, with only moments left before 
he discorporated to the four metaplanes of the elements, he made 
a deal with one of his bound elementals.  It went something like this:

Enigma: If I order you to go Free, will you help me?
Fire Elemental: What would you want me to do?
E: [I'll use Karma to insure that one of its free spirit powers is
    Astral Gateway]  I want to go to the Shamanic metaplane of sky.
GM:  WHAT? WHY?
Me: So that my girlfriend, if she ever goes initiate can go on 
     astral quests to come visit me.
GM: [Shaking his head]
FE: Sure you got a deal.

I then used two point of Karma to insure that when it went free,
it became an animus.  Two more to insure that it got three
spirit powers, and two more to insure that one of them was
Astral Gateway.
  Enigma spent the next year sitting in a tree on the meteplane of Sky,
watching the 'wierd' beings go about thier business.
  For anyone who cares, his girlfriend did eventually, go initiate
and she did visit him there. :)

Aeleck 
                       /                  /  
                      /                  /        
     __      __      /   __      __     /         
    /  \    /  \    /   /  \    /  \   / \        "If you're not having
   /   /   /\__/   /   /\__/   /      /\_/         fun, you're doing some-
   \__/\__/\___/__/\__/\___/__/\___/ /   \__/      thing wrong." -Patrick
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: BattleLords of the 23rd Century(addendum)
Date: 30 Aug 92 11:43:23 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 CNet]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.95f

I dunno...Phoenix Command you lose important stats and abilities big time when 
shot in the head with a dinky .45 (compared to a Pershing missile)...YOU DIE!  
Seems more realistic to me....hi Larry...
 
Skeksis
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: Question On Vampire: The Masquerade
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 15:07:03 GMT

In article <aVP4PB4w164w@cityzen.UUCP>
carolyns@cityzen.UUCP (Carolyn's Fingers) writes:

>  I read that when adding Willpower in to help stop a character's own 
>Frenzy, that they may add one Willpower point.  But in the example on 
>pages 124-125, (125) the player "Lisa" adds -3- Willpower points as a 
>last desperate measure.  Did I just read something wrong?

Hm.  As I recall (from a while ago; double-check this against the
rules), you burn a Willpower point getting a check to stop the Frenzy
when you ordinarily wouldn't, or to hold it in check for a turn, or
something.  I think she used a Willpower point getting a check and two
Willpower points getting extra dice or autosuccesses -- *some* sort of
increased chance of success, anyway.

--
Coratha of Twilight, archmaga of Bonisagus and Diedne and amica of Criamon.
Llarana, duchess of Amber and Rebma.   Nimerus of Verditus.  David of Amber.
Mara.  Miranda.  Elspeth of Bonisagus.  Nuron (the one and only).  Iluri.
McSorley.  Lieva, Quaesitor and archmaga of Flambeau and Trianoma.  Tiliana.
From: cm182s182@pdrome.UUCP (Clayton Miner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: No longer Re: Dangerous Journeys
Date: 22 Aug 92 22:47:22 GMT
Organization: The PowerDrome BBS [(716)825-3614 CNet]
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! v0.95f

Sorry gang, EGG has a daughter....too late...

Skeksis
From: alvalent@husc9.harvard.edu (Alvin Valentine)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: the REAL Dangerous Journeys (not the Gygax war)
Date: 30 Aug 92 12:55:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug30.085536.15227
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Anybody bought Mythus and Mythus Magick.  Looks reasonably stunning.  I 
remember when Gygax actually started work on this stuff, YEARS ago.
He started out with Aegypt and worked his way up.  What do you guys think.
2 books for $40 bucks is steep, but there is a HUGE amount of info in those
books.  Those are serious RPG tomes.  Thoughts? Comments?

All appreciated, but please no "Gygax is an idiot" flame war saga.  I'm trying
to find out about the game not about personal traumas with Gygax that have
marred your image of humanity.  Is the game cool?  How about the setting?
Looks to be skill-based.. IS it?

Thanks


 
Later,
 
Lee Valentine
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
From: cb317@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stephanie J. Kessler)
Subject: Re: orch players
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 18:52:28 GMT


Yes!  The  Gazetteer called "The Orcs of Thar" is all about
playing the monsters as PC's.  It can be changed to AD&D pretty
easily, and aafter just a couple of  game sessions,they are a lot
of fun to plaay!
-- 
The United States is a nation of laws:  badly written and
randomly enforced.     Frank Zappa

cb317 @ cleveland.Freenet.Edu