HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: A new posting for voters
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:53:29 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) writes:

>Anyone interested in working on a "How to Participate in Newsgroup
>Creations and Renamings" document?  I don't know that I've got
>the time to manage the effort, but I'd be willing to help.
>I think it could be something to be added to the news.announce.newusers
>postings.

>Anyone?  In particular -- Dave Hayes and Gordon (last name forgotten)?

I'd be happy to help out, and I'll start by offering my first suggestion.

Don't *just* post this to n.a.n every few weeks.  Post a copy with each
RFD and CFV in the affected groups (no, I'm not going to try and define
that), perhaps with a line at the start of the file pointing people to
the appropriate RFD/CFV, coming soon to a group near you.

I have no clue how to enforce that, but frankly, if a document about
participating in a newsgroup creation/renaming popped up in one of my
favorite groups, even if I had no clue what an RFD was, I'd probably
check it out just for curiosity's sake...and that may be the best way to
draw in interest.

OK, news.groupies...poke holes at will.  :-)

--
--Andrew Hackard                                 If I spoke for UT, this post
  andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu                        would make even less sense.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 21 Nov 1992 13:34:03 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov20.235303.18343@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>If there was really such a groundswell of opinion against the rename, why
>>wasn't there a bunch of discussion generated by that article??
>It takes more than that. Look at how I started this flamewar. I posted
>many articles within a span of time. THAT got a response. 

Hardly. Your first inflammatory article about ignoring a valid result of
voting did that just fine. All it takes is one article. (I've started
flamewars with one article, too...just look at the rec.arts.startrek reorg for
an example.)
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: kforward@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Ken Forward)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.soft-sys.matlab
Organization: Ocean Physics, Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:16:29 GMT

In article <wym1Hkvs-a@atlantis.psu.edu> mek@guinan.psu.edu (Mark E. Kotanchek) writes:
>In article <maurer.722226031@magellan.stanford.edu>  
>maurer@nova.stanford.edu (Michael Maurer) writes:
>> 
>> Although I agree that the comp.soft-sys.* hierarchy is not as well known
>> as sci.math.* (probably due to its youth), I don't think that should be
>> a reason to place the Matlab group where it doesn't belong.  The
>> sci.math groups... 
>> are generally broader in scope than discussion of a single software
>> package...
>> 
>> In contrast, the comp.soft-sys groups...
>> each specifically deal with a software system that is too large in scope
>> to fit into any of the existing newsgroup hierarchies, just like Matlab.
>> 
>> I'm not particularly thrilled with the comp.soft-sys.matlab placement
>> either, but I think it's the best place in the existing newsgroups...

IMHO, comp.soft-sys.matlab is a better name than sci.math.matlab, as
argued above. How to deal with the relative obscurity of the comp.soft-sys
hierarchy ?  I don't know... but I'm also not worried; if the newer
hierarchy fits, we should wear it...

>Hmm...., good points; but, like you, I'm still not thrilled with  
>comp.soft-sys. Maybe since the real need is for a numeric math program  
>working group, we should have a name like
>
>            sci.math.numeric_Programs

Whoa !  Far too broad; that also encompasses, eg, stats packages like
S-Plus. 

>Such a name might also appeal to our brethern who use equivalent software  
>like MATRIXx from whom we could benefit and do comparison shopping. 

I think this was mentioned in the RFD. Personally, I think I'd prefer a
matlab-only group, but at the very least it would have to be limited to
matlab-like software before I would support its creation.

>Now that I know that a "matlab" newsgroup will exist, I'll be able to find  
>it pretty easily; however, I also benefit by the group having the broadest  
>market penetration so that the maximum number of people are out there to  
>answer my queries and solve my problems ;)

I think a too loosely defined newsgroup, ie, one not specific to matlab
or matlab-like products, would have a poor signal to noise ratio if you're
really only looking for answers to your matlab queries.
-- 
  Ken Forward, Dept of Physics, Memorial University of Newfoundland
   <kforward@crosby.physics.mun.ca> | <kforward@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
 "...don't plant your bad days, they grow into weeks..." -Tom Waits-
From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Distribution: world
Organization:  One of these days for sure
X-News: HERMES MMAIL 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
	<1992Nov16.000449.1327@metrosoft.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:36:36 -0800

In <1992Nov16.000449.1327@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <H.ea.XemlKcz4uRo@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca> jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca  
>(John Henders) writes:
>....... As the only
>> other poster supporting you with any volume in this thread obviously
>> hasn't read them, it's hard to tell in his case.
>> 
>If you mean me, I have read them. Why is it "obvious" that I haven't? I  
>have made several posts that relate specifically to the contents of the  
>guidelines.

	Well, failing to recognise one of the author's names and accusing
him of being unhelpful seemed to indictate a certain lack of familiarity.

-- 
                    John Henders              " Read the guideline, Luke"
           Just another elitist Usenet user        Obi Wan Spaf
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Should there be Pre-RFD discussion? (was Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy)
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:07:06 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School
Disclaimer: I don't represent Dartmouth and Dartmouth doesn't represent me.

In <pvanheus.722175366@frodo> pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden) writes:

>Dani Zweig  dani@netcom.com asks if there was not a pre-RFD discussion.
> Well, there was, amongst the USENETters on the Camelot mailing list, a
> list related to matters Arthurian, the closest I could find on the net to
> anything fantasy related. I have pointed out before why I shied away from
> rec.arts.sf.*.
> This should also (hopefully) cover Geoffb@Dartmouth.edu's comments. BTW.
> what would be the difference between spending time discussing this as an
> RFD and discussing as a non-RFD? Same topic, thus equal discussion.

I'm sorry, but I really can't agree with you here. Several groups would
have been a likely place to at least inquire if there was any interest at
all in a fantasy specific newsgroup. alt.mythology and rec.arts.sf.written
and rec.arts.books are a few examples. (They would also have been good
locations for crossposts of the RFD.)

The difference between that sort of discussion and a formal RFD is that an
RFD involves a lot more people. It makes sense to see if you have a core
group of people who would be interested in a proposed group before
everyone has to take the time to hash out an RFD and go through an entire
discussion and voting process. It is also a good way to iron out any
serious flaws in the proposal to prevent a huge discussion in
news.groups. Discussion on a mailing list just doesn't count, that isn't
an open enough forum.

This isn't required, but it does work. And a lot of people have come to
expect it. Lack of a pre-RFD discussion isn't a reason to reject a
proposal. In this case the proposal has enough strikes against it anyway.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU - Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business

  "We didn't start the fire. It was always burning,
   since the world's been turning."   - Billy Joel
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Informing users how to vote
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:40:49 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Nov14.180845.1083@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>Your response didn't address the comment, IMO. I maintain that the method  
>of dissemenating the inforamtion should be enforcable. You and I differ on  
>that point and I will continue to argue it.

So stop kvetching and suggest one!  *We* aren't going to do it for you!

You've set up the design parameters, now solve it!

Bear in mind:
    1) Usenet is a collection of many separate unaffiliated sites
    2) We cannot even "enforce" a standard newsreader
        (ref. the recent "but we don't *have* killfiles" complaints)
    3) Many system operaters don't know or don't care so how do
        you expect to get all the readers to know?

Your other points about the creation process deserving better
documentation *are* valid, but this "enforcable" concept is 
just plain unrealistic considering the anarchy that is usenet.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
But I am frightened for you, children,		|
that the life that we are living is in vain,	|	-Richard Hartman	
and the sunshine we've been waiting for		|	hartman@uLogic.COM
has turned to rain....				|
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.basic
Date: 16 Nov 1992 17:37:43 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <Bxty6F.3yJ@uunet.uu.net> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
>Proposed newsgroup name: comp.lang.basic
>Status: unmoderated
>
>Charter: comp.lang.basic is for discussion of all implementations of the
>BASIC programming language on all platforms, including MS-DOS, MS-Windows,
>Mac, Amiga, and Unix.

If this group (comp.lang.basic) is for "*all* implementations of ...
BASIC ... *including* ... MS-Windows" (emphasis added), then why the
proposal for a separate group for Visual Basic?

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:00:43 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov20.185631.27310@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>Another point to note: if nobody even _realized_ that an article was posted
>with the word "rename" in the header until _now_, that means the article was
>fairly inconspicuous....

...or that there simply was no available proof.

Besides, note that the article posted was 1) a reply to the notification, and
2) a message from a r.m.s reader saying that he disagreed with the rename.

If there was really such a groundswell of opinion against the rename, why
wasn't there a bunch of discussion generated by that article??
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:42:27 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>Well, Dave: what now? Are you going to come up wiht yet another lame argument,

Any argument I come up with would be named that by you. So as not to
disappoint you:

He didn't post that often enough. 

>or are you now going to admit that the readers of rec.music.synth were
>notified - several times, including at least once with an explicit Subject:
>line saying specifically that there was a discussion to rename the group going
>on - and had a full and fair chance to participate? 

I still don't think they had a full and fair chance to participate. Not
when 14 users say "I didn't know about it". The goal here is ZERO.

>Time to give up, Dave. 

Never. :-)

>the users you claim to protect, you'd do well to go along with the existing
>result.  

You cannot tell me how to run my news site.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

             It is only knowledge that will destroy bias.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.usenet.culture
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 05:25:25 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <1992Nov16.042236.26179@wolves.uucp> news@wolves.durham.nc.us writes:
>What is needed is some way to encourage the admins of the net to provide
>a set of introductory documents to new users (all new users) and to have
>some restriction on posting until the user shows some understanding of
>the net.culture (or at least some basic nettiquette. :-)
>
>Comments?

Why do the words 'news.announce.newusers' come to mind right now? ;-)

>Usenet Net News Administrator @ The Wolves Den  (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
>news@wolves.durham.nc.us  news%wolves@cs.duke.edu  ...duke!wolves!news

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<1992Nov20.014227.9059@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov20.185631.27310@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
	<1992Nov20.202454.16555@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:37:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.202454.16555@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   Yes. Just because you post one article (heard of KILL files? Bad news spools?)
   doesn't mean everyone heard it.

Are you seriously suggesting the possibility that the disenfranchised
killed the "renaming rec.music.synth" thread before seeing the first
article?  That's a big stretch.  Either they killed the text
"renaming" for some inexplicable reason, or "rec.music.synth" perhaps
because they had already voted.  As for bad news spools:  That's just
too bad.  Sometimes computers fail.  The vote is not invalidated
because somebody's spool broke down.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.basic
Date: 17 Nov 1992 02:25:25 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Nov17.035108.2855@news.ysu.edu> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
>randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>: 
>: If this group (comp.lang.basic) is for "*all* implementations of ...
>: BASIC ... *including* ... MS-Windows" (emphasis added), then why the
>: proposal for a separate group for Visual Basic?
>: 
[deletion]

>Further, Visual Basic is rarely discussed in alt.lang.basic, it sits
>in with the Windows newsgroups.  I expect that this would probably
>continue, or that the "traditional BASIC" and the VB folk will both
>clamor for separate newsgroups.  This is my rationale for proposing
>two separate groups.

[deletion]

Well, then, amend the charter to say that comp.lang.basic will *not*
be for VB discussions.  This (might) prevent VB posts from being put
in the wrong group.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: markz@ssc.com (Mark Zenier)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.fantasy
Organization: SSC, Inc.,  Seattle, WA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:52:49 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Chris Holt (Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk) wrote:
: groups that overlap and have fuzzy borderlines, 
: 
: Or are f/sf advocates really that much more
: ornery and obnoxious than everyone else? :-)

Yes, absolutely.  

The book publishers have no problem how to categorize their product.  
They print "Fantasy" or "Sci-Fi" right there on the spine.

But try to convince the hardcore that it wouldn't make a big 
disruption, and all sorts of strange arguments come out of the 
woodwork.

Mark Zenier  markz@ssc.wa.com  
Still bearing the scars from having advocated a SF/Fantasy split
during the great SF reorg.


Xref: sparky news.groups:22013 rec.music.makers.synth:146
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.makers.synth
Subject: Re: RENAME: Those against name change PLEASE READ!
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 16 Nov 1992 17:33:07 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov15.122948.11477@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <2B067850.87B4@tct.com>
	<1992Nov16.040047.16213@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 04:00:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.040047.16213@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   Facts can be massaged to hide lots of bullshit. 

And then there's BS that claims to have facts and won't present them.

[* followups to news.groups; if Dave wants to butcher r.m.s, that's
OK, since it's going away (everywhere except Dave's place, perhaps).
Don't let him do the same to the legal new group, where synth readers
are trying to hide from the flamewar. *]
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland)
Subject: Re: Is there a general fault-tolerance news group?
Keywords: fault tolerance
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:39:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.192123.28286@frog.CRDS.COM> miket@frog.CRDS.COM (Michael C Tiernan) writes:
>Might I suggest a good place to start the discussions for such a subject
>would be in "comp.realtime" as well as "alt.industrial.computing".

As well as comp.os.research.
-- 
Ian Sutherland
ian@eecs.nwu.edu

Sans Peur
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: masri@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Group alt.egypt
Reply-To: masri@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:36:52 GMT



Please, please, please create this group!!! I will faithfully read it every
day.  As a matter of fact, I have often wondered why there hasn't been a 
group like this created before.

Debbie Masri
From: jch+@cs.cmu.edu (Jonathan Hardwick)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:33:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bxz4s5.IsE.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

ppregler@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Peter Pregler) writes
>You need another example? How many (silly) inquiries did you read about RSA the
>last few week? Lot's of people seemed to miss the information that was posted.
>IMHO, r.g.n.announce(moderated) would have helped.

Idiots are idiots.  Even *with* r.g.n.announce, we'd still have had a
bunch of people on r.g.n saying "what's RSA?".  r.g.n.announce would
be a good way for people with very little time to keep up-to-date on
new servers, new clients, etc, but it wouldn't do much to cut down on
the number of people who ask dumb questions on r.g.n.

Jonathan H., jch@cs.cmu.edu                        Spaceman Spiff, Flying Pig
I run a Netrek information archive.   Access: [1] WAIS (gourd.srv.cs.cmu.edu, 
port 6000, name netrek-ftp)  [2] AFS (try cd /afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/jch/netrek)  
[3] Anon FTP from gs69.sp.cs.cmu.edu   [4] e-mail from ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:58:05 GMT

In article <2B091165.5732@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >In article <2B07A7A2.A699@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)  
writes:
> >
> >I added deletions because when you perform a rename you are performing  
an  
> >addition and a deletion.
> 
> Then you shouldn't have said "renames _and_ deletions"; if you
> consider a rename to be "really" an addition and a deletion, then
> there is no such thing a a "rename" any more.  But that's a quibble.
> 

OK - since it's a quibble - what about the point? I mean that sincerely,  
not argumentatively.

> >> Reading the instructions to the vote taker tells voters what they  
need
> >> to know.
> > 
> >There is an amount of extraneous information in "How to create a new  
> >Usenet newsgroup" for the user wishing to vote (not to mention an  
> >innapropriate title from a voter's point of view).
> 
> Title, sure.  But I am not prepared to believe that it is even
> possible to achieve, much less desireable to strive for, documents
> with no "extraneous information".

Once again you pick one point to argue and drop the rest. I feel that a  
document along the lines of "A user's guide to Usenet voting" that doesn't  
contain things that are only appropriate to vote takers, but DOES provide  
some context that the guidlelines don't (and perhaps shouldn't) would be a  
worthwhile document. It would certainly grab more attention than "How to  
create a new Usenet newsgroup" and with content more oriented toward a  
user not a vote taker, it just might be better understood. Anybody agree?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups