HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: To 4SF or not to?
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:03:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.133217.22575@eua.ericsson.se> ttllarsa@eua.ericsson.se writes:
:Reading some interesting arguments regarding 4SF in another tread I decided
:to create a little query on how people on the net play "Standard American".
:My purpose of this is to understand how SA works (or not) and to find out if 
: there is a concensus regarding the system.
	     ^^^^^^^^^^

You must be joking.....


:Assumptions:
:You are playing SA (no Flannery). Your partner opens 1H, you bid 1S and your 
:partner 2D.
:
:Questions:
:==========
:What do you do now playing
:a. 4SF?
:b. not 4SF?
:c. Your favourite method?
 
I will reply only to a), since for me a) is the same as c), and I refuse
to comment on methods that I don't like, e.g. b)

I preface my answers by stating that since 

1) opener has not limited his hand with 2D

then jump rebids by responder are FORCING. I use 4SF only when I do not
have a jump rebid available to me, yet I still have a game forcing hand.

Some people play that any bid except 3C is non-forcing, but IMHO that 
method is silly.

:AQxxx/AQ/xxx/xxx
 
3C.

:2.
:AQxxx/AQx/xx/xxx
 
3H
:3.
:AQxxx/AQxx/xx/xx
 
3H

:4.
:AQxxx/AQxx/Kx/xx

3H

:5.
:QJxxxx/x/xxx/Kxx
 
2S, why is this a problem?

:6.
:KQJTxx/x/Kxx/xxx
 
3S.

:7.
:AQJTxx/x/KJx/xxx
 
3S. This is essentially the same hand as 6! A 1-loser 6 card spade suit,
6133, with K diamonds. The only difference here is the J diamonds.

:8.
:AQxxxx/x/KJx/Axx

3S

:9.
:Qxxx/x/xxxx/AQxx

2NT; a slight stretch

:10.
:Axxx/x/Kxxx/Axxx

3NT

:11.
:Qxxx/x/AKxx/AJxx

3C

:12.
:KJxx/Qx/Qxx/Kxxx

3NT

:13.
:KJxx/Qx/AQx/Kxxx
 
3C

:14.
:AJxxx/xx/xx/AQxx

3NT

:15.
:AQxxx/Qx/xx/AKxx
 
3C; too good for 3NT. If partner responds 3 of red suit and I now bid 3NT
he will know I was too good to bid 3NT directly.

:16.
:KJxxx/xx/xx/Qxxx

2H; what's the problem?

:17.
:Axxxx/Kxx/Qxx/xx

4H; 9 count not withstanding, all cards are working.

:18.
:AQxxx/Kxx/Qxx/xx

4H; The Q spades adds little to this hand opposite 2 red suits.

:19.
:AQxxx/KQx/Kxx/xx
 
3H

:20. 
:AQxxx/xx/AKxxx/x

4C; splinter in diamonds.

:21. 
:AKxxx/KQxx/Axx/x

3H
--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"
From: mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: How would you rule?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:29:59 -0000
Organization: Daresbury Lab., Warrington, U.K.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: seqnet.dl.ac.uk



I received this as a direct reply - How about some more opinions. Was this
ruling correct?

> From thomaso@com.centerline Fri Dec 18 16:49:29 1992

> I'm not sure what you are saying in your message.

> You have an obligation to describe your agreements accurately.

> You have an obligation to not take inferences from partner's
> misdescriptions.

> Here is an auction I had with a partner once:

	Me	Partner
	1H	2S(a)
	3C(b)   4D(c)
	4H(d)

> (a) We had agreed to play this as a game-forcing raise in hearts.
> I forgot, and failed to alert it.

> (b) Bidding naturally, I bid my second suit.  Partner alerted it,
> and described the bid's correct meaning - shortness in clubs.

No problem so far.

> (c) 4D: I alerted this as showing shortness in diamonds, and a hand too
> good for an immediate diamond raise.  I bid, though, as if partner had
> splintered in support of clubs.

Do you mean club raise or heart raise? Given that 2S was (not) natural, and
3C was natural, what would 4D normally mean? As long as (but ONLY if) it would
mean exactly what you said, then you're still OK. If you described what it
actually meant in your system, then you have used information provided by
your partner.

> (d) Intended as a cue bid towards a spade slam.

> In any event, we ended up in 6H.  Partner's 4D bid turned out to be
> a misbid - he was trying to cuebid.  We made 6H, due to a bad lead
> induced by the bad bidding.  A truly bizarre event, but when
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
When did you know? If you knew there had been a bidding foul-up, you MUST
tell the opposition at the end of the auction. If you didn't find out till
partner's hand went down, then you're in rather better shape.   

> it went to committee, it turns out the only infraction was my failure
> to alert the 2S bid.  This was not deemed to have caused injury,
> and the result held.  I am not obligated to tell the opponents
> what I am taking partner's bids to mean - I am obligated to tell
> them what my agreements are with my partner.  They are not allowed to 
> ask, "If the 2S bid was natural, what would the 4D bid show?"

But they are allowed to ask what would you have taken the 4D to be in the 
absence of any knowledge of partner's alerts, explanations etc. (i.e.
what would have happened if there had been screens). Since you were 
bidding under the impression that 2S was natural, all explanations you
give must reflect that. And you CANNOT "remember" when partner alerts 3C,
since that is making unauthorised use of that information.

> These are the laws as I understand them.
> -- 
> Thomas Andrews
> CenterLine Software

Yet more ill-informed comment. I'm waiting for someone to rubbish it.

Robin Walters.
From: hroth@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Harris Roth)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Explain alerts
Date: 17 Dec 92 13:52:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncratl.77732
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

Subject tells all!
-- 
Harris J. Roth, Senior Programmer Analyst |
System Software                           |   hroth@ncratl.atlantaga.NCR.COM 
Transaction Terminal Systems Division     |
NCR E&M Atlanta                           |   (404) 623-7749
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Ethics question
Keywords: no agreement = procedural penalty
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:16:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Dec14.225451.24791@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> rainbow@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Rob Buchner) writes:

>To clarify further, in the midwest, for an expert player to claim
>ignorance of an auction is an automatic procedural penalty. Unless

This is total BS.

ACBL has no such policy.  In the Midwest or anywhere else.  If you
are speaking about your great-aunt's home game, you should say so.

>specific understanding. Any expert player will suspect or even
>know what a bid means, and is obligated to convey that info.

Based on their general bridge knowledge, which they aren't obligated
to spread unless paid for.

>Maybe harsh, but that is what directors have been instructed to do.

Which directors are those?

>The rules committees are striving to protect opponents from these
>random happenings, whether they be intentional or unintentional.

Rules committees?  Are they affiliated with any North American
governing bodies (of bridge) by any chance?

>This information comes straight from a national director.

Which one? And what makes him/her a National director?
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: baseggio@deshaw.com (Franco Baseggio)
Subject: Re: Help a beginner
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:39:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.234812.29074@sunova.ssc.gov> henk@pdsf.ssc.gov (Henk Uijterwaal) writes:
>Harris Roth writes:

>+> Please don't flame.  I truly am perplexed as to why a partnership must 
>+> disclose their strategy for winning.  Maybe my poker mentality prevents
>+> me from knowing the reason.
>
>If you don't understand it now, stick to poker.
>
>Henk.

No, don't do that.  What a crummy piece of advice.  Bridge is a better
game than poker, you would be a fool not to find out why.

Franco
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Steven G. Myerson)
Subject: Re: What does the RKCB abbreviation mean?
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:14:48 GMT


In article <JKORPELA.92Dec16095219@lk-hp-17.hut.fi> Jukka Korpela writes:

* My current understanding of RKCB is that under some assumptions - e.g. trump
* suit has been agreed on (whatever that means in detail) - the 4 NT bid
* asks for aces, counting trump king as an ace, with the following responses:
*   5 C	0 or 3 aces
*   5 D   1 or 4 aces
*   5 H   2 aces, no trump queen
*   5 S   2 aces plus trump queen
* 
* (What should one do with 5 aces? Change partner?)

Actually, the 5H and 5S responses show 2 or 5 aces,
plus the info about the trump queen.

* This is not difficult to remember, but how to ask for side suit kings
* (and trump queen, if the response was 5 C or 5 D) without having
* too complicated agreements?

The way my partner and I play it is as follows:

If the 4N bidder's next bid is one step above the response to 4N,
it is asking for info about the trump queen and kings,
UNLESS that is the agreed trump suit, in which case it is a signoff.

Oops, maybe I'd better be more specific, because I certainly
don't want to incur a procedural penalty. :-)

Over 5C, 5D asks for trump queen and kings, unless diamonds is the
agreed trump suit.
Over 5D, 5H asks for trump queen and kings, unless hearts is the
agreed trump suit.
Also, 5N just asks about the remaining 3 kings,
should the 4N bidder be looking at the trump queen.

Oh yeah, the responses to the trump queen ask
(and again, I repeat that this is way my partner and I play it,
and it may not be the way everyone plays it):
  one step - no queen, no info about kings
  two steps - queen, but no kings
  three steps - queen, and one king
  four steps - queen, and two kings
  five steps - queen, and three kings

I'v also heard of some people showing the trump queen and specific kings,
but I don't know those responses.

Steve Myerson (sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy)
Subject: interesting hand
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 09:21:29 GMT

Some interesting hands came up this weekend in Pasadena -- I might post
a bunch of them later, here's one:

--
AJTx
AKxx
AKQxx

2S  X  4S  5H
P   ?


    5N P   7H
7S  X ----

What do you think of the auction?  You lead club King and dummy is:
Qxxxx  xx  QJx xxx  Standard signals, partner plays the Jack.  Your plan?
From: taylor@foraker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Eric Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: problem over preempt
Date: 19 Dec 92 20:54:22 GMT

In article <fbl2wbl@rpi.edu>, sperbr@vccnw12.its.rpi.edu (Ron E Sperber) writes:
|> Playing on okbridge with someone who is a reasonable player,but in a 
|> somewhat unfamiliar partnership you pick up the following hand red vs white
|> at IMPs:
|> 
|> AJ
|> KQJ8
|> A86
|> AJ98
|> 
|> RHO opens 4D. Your call.

Double.  Assume partner is of the understanding sort
until proved otherwise.  This hand has way too many losers
to make a slam attempt if partner merely bids game
in some suit.  Of course you will be wrong sometimes,
but such is the nature of preempts.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: two missed slam
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:31:26 GMT

In article <6857@tivoli.UUCP> taylor@foraker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Eric Taylor) writes:
:|> >2) N/S vuln. West dealer.
:|> >     AKJT752     Q843
:|> >     52          AKQJ3
:|> >     K652        A8
:|> >     -           K9
:|> >
  
stuff deleted...

:4S is only criminal if it violates any agreements.
:What agreements do you have about what 4S shows?
:If West has a club control, then you want to be in 7.
:
:Blackwood.  Do your methods allow West to show 
:2 key cards and useful void?
 
How would:

(a) West know whether his void was useful after 4S-4NT?
(b) East know that the void was in clubs, rather than diamonds?
    Couldn't West hold:

	AKJTxxx
	xx
	-
	QJxx

???

:
:Since you need either 3 cards or 2 key cards and a void in
:clubs,  Blackwood seems perfect.
 
See above. Generally, with 2 keycards and a working void one responds
5NT to 4NT. However, there is no way to determine if the void is 
working.

--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: ttllarsa@eua.ericsson.se (Lars Andersson)
Subject: Re: Place the Blame
Reply-To: ttllarsa@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:14:53 GMT

In article 1gonqpINNp72@sol.deakin.OZ.AU, doug@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Douglas Newlands) writes:
>More of everyone's favourite activity.
>
>1 Bidding : who gets blamed for this travesty?
>
>Butler Teams        S A4
>LA                  H 987654                   S     W     N     E
>D-S                 D QJ106                    1S    2D    P     3C*
>		    C 7                        P     3D    P     4D
>                                               P     5D    X   all pass
>	S J1032             S 96
>	H A                 H Q32
>	D K98543            D A7
>	C J6                C AK10982         * 1 round force
>
>		    S KQ875
>		    H KJ10
>		    D 2
>		    C Q543

West: 101 %
 This is NOT a two-level overcall. If it is, why raise 4D!?

>
>2 Play : 
>
>Butler Teams        S AJ964                   N      E     S      W
>EW                  H KJ74                    1C+    1N*   X~     2C
>D-N                 D AK5                     2S     P     4S   all pass
>		    C J
>                                              + precision
>	S KQ3               S 5               * minors
>	H Q10962            H 3               ~ 5-8 any shape
>	D 8                 D Q9763
>	C AQ94              C 1086532
>
>		    S 10872          Trick 1: 5C 7C QC JC
>		    H A85            Trick 2: AC ruffed
>		    D J1042          Trick 3: AS
>		    C K7
>
>Declarer could no longer avoid 4 losers;N was told he should have crossed to
>AH and finessed trumps. Is this correct?
>

I think North should have played a small spade towards dummy in trick three. BTW
,why did not West return a diamond!?

>3 Defence: Here declarer makes a hopeless contract - who should have found the
>defence?
>
>Teams              S xxx
>NS                 H AKQJ10
>D-N                D xx                   N     E      S    W
>		   C xxx                  P     P     1N    P
>                                          2D    P     2H    P
>	S 9xx2              S QJ10x       4H  all pass
>	H xxx               H xx
>	D A10x              D KJx
>	C Qxx               C KJ10x
>
>		   S AK
>		   H xxx
>		   D Qxxxx
>		   C Axx
>
>The play started T1 9S xS xS AS
>		 T2 xD 10D xD xD
>		 T3 2s xS 10S KS
>		 T4 xD xD xD JD
>		 T5 QS         and declarer is now home.

West: 100%

1. Don't lead high from 4 small.
2. Seeing the first trick why did not West shift
   to a small club??



--lars
From: taylor@foraker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Eric Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Rate this sequence
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:57:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: tivoli.6855

In article <85128@ut-emx.uucp>, shamrake@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Danil Suits) writes:
|> 
|> Please critique East's actions in this auction:
|> 
|> E-W Vulnerable at MATCHPOINTS
|> 
|>    AKxx
|>    Axxxx
|>    KJxx
|>    ---
|> 
|> WEST    NORTH    EAST    SOUTH
|>  1D      3C       6C      P
|>  6D      X        XX      P
|>  P       7C       P       P
|>  X       P        P       P

Other than pride, why were you redoubling?
Did you know that North would buckle down?

I can sympathize with the "Pick Your Slam"
bid, but it is possible that there is
wastage in the suit and slam will be hard to make.

Would you preempt with :
	KJxxxxxx
?

You saw an example of it in the reisingers.

Why not investigate the wastage and if the opponents
get excited, you should always be able to outbid them.
7 is certainly playable with no wastage and a minimum
hand from partner.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Assign the blame
From: avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 02:11:07 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

varvel@cs.utexas.edu (Donald A. Varvel) writes:
: The usual deal.  Assign the blame, and pick the worst bid.  On
: the first the cards are correct.  On the second I don't remember
: the exact hands, but they're close.  Agreement is Standard
: American with weak 2-bids and some methods for responding to 1NT.
:
: Hand 1: Unfavorable, South deals.
:
: N:     S: A Q x x x         Opponents passing throughout:
:        H: A Q
:        D: x x x             1H    1S
:        C: x x x             2D    3C
:                             3S    4S
: S:     S: K x x             All pass
:        H: K J T x x x
:        D: A K x x           Making 7.
:        C: --
:

(Persumably 3C is 4SF) I think that N is guilty of gross underbid.
S showed 3541 at worst.  N, with the AQ of hearts can count 12 tricks.
(5S, 5H, AD and club ruff), as partner should hold the major suit Kings.
After all, 3S is stronger then 4S.
North 100%   Worst call 4S

: Hand 2: Both vulnerable, North deals.
:
: N:     S: J x x             (--)   P   (P)   2S
:        H: K Q T x x x       (X)    XX  (3C)  P
:        D: K x               (P)    3S  (P)   P
:        C: Q x               (X)  All pass
:
: S:     S: Q 9 x x x         -800 on adequate defense.
:        H: J x
:        D: J x x
:        C: x x x
:
This one is simple.  S 100%.  worst call 2S.  I know that Bergen popularized
the 5 card weak 2, but to open this junk at the 2 level vulnerable, is
asking for it.

I don't like North's pass either. I think that he has a perfect weak two bid
in hearts, or an Acol 1H opener.  Had north opened, S would have been
relieved of the burden.  However, I am so appalled by the 2S bid, that I have
to assign it all the blame.

Avi
--
Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D.         Ben-Gurion University Medical School
Dept. of Surgery A.             POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel
avir@chen.bgu.ac.il             AVIR@BGUVM.BITNET
From: CHRISW@OWGVM6.VNET.IBM.COM (Chris Wyse)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: What does the RKCB abbreviation mean?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 07:55:49 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: chrisw@owgvm6.VNET.IBM.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I am relatively new to bridge, so I am not familiar with all the terminology
that is used in this newsgroup.  Could someone tell me what RKCB means?
I believe it is related to Blackwood, or a variation of it, but I haven't
seen it in any of my books.

Thanks,
Chris
From: rudy@netcom.com (Rudy)
Subject: Re: bidding problem from the Resinger final
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 09:24:04 GMT

In article <1792@idacrd.UUCP> desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) writes:
>Why is this the right contract?  If you expect the other table to be in
>6S, then the best BAM spot is to also be in 6S.  That makes 6S the
>pareto optimum.  Unless I'm missing something.

Because it's the only one that's cold.

Do you know Bob Hamman's definition of a good slam?
From: kibler@turing.ICS.UCI.EDU (Dennis Kibler)
Subject: Re: Place the Blame
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:10:20 GMT

In rec.games.bridge you write:

>More of everyone's favourite activity.

>1 Bidding : who gets blamed for this travesty?

>Butler Teams        S A4
>LA                  H 987654                   S     W     N     E
>D-S                 D QJ106                    1S    2D    P     3C*
>		    C 7                        P     3D    P     4D
>                                               P     5D    X   all pass
>	S J1032             S 96
>	H A                 H Q32
>	D K98543            D A7
>	C J6                C AK10982         * 1 round force

>		    S KQ875
>		    H KJ10
>		    D 2
>		    C Q543


Bidding was very wild. South has a questionable opening. Why
doesn't north make a negative double of 2 diamonds?

West:100%

First West overcall of 2 diamonds is not warranted. Besides
lacking the strength for an overcall, the 4 spades are not an asset
on offense. I can't imagine why West accepted the invitation to 5
diamonds, but then I can't imagine why the overcall was made.




>2 Play :

>Butler Teams        S AJ964                   N      E     S      W
>EW                  H KJ74                    1C+    1N*   X~     2C
>D-N                 D AK5                     2S     P     4S   all pass
>		    C J
>                                              + precision
>	S KQ3               S 5               * minors
>	H Q10962            H 3               ~ 5-8 any shape
>	D 8                 D Q9763
>	C AQ94              C 1086532

>		    S 10872          Trick 1: 5C 7C QC JC
>		    H A85            Trick 2: AC ruffed
>		    D J1042          Trick 3: AS
>		    C K7

>Declarer could no longer avoid 4 losers;N was told he should have crossed to
>AH and finessed trumps. Is this correct?


Hmnn, East announces that he has a maximum of 3 cards in the majors.
Where do you think the spades honors are? Yes, go to table and finesse.



>3 Defence: Here declarer makes a hopeless contract - who should have found the
>defence?

>Teams              S xxx
>NS                 H AKQJ10
>D-N                D xx                   N     E      S    W
>		   C xxx                  P     P     1N    P
>                                          2D    P     2H    P
>	S 9xx2              S QJ10x       4H  all pass
>	H xxx               H xx
>	D A10x              D KJx
>	C Qxx               C KJ10x

>		   S AK
>		   H xxx
>		   D Qxxxx
>		   C Axx

>The play started T1 9S xS xS AS
>		 T2 xD 10D xD xD
>		 T3 2s xS 10S KS
>		 T4 xD xD xD JD
>		 T5 QS

Although west should shift to a small club, instead of the q of spade
any club still defeats the contract. Defenders need to think about
the whole hand, not just what tricks are possible in a single suit.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: Rate this sequence
From: avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:35:31 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

shamrake@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Danil Suits) writes:
:
: Please critique East's actions in this auction:
:
: E-W Vulnerable at MATCHPOINTS
:
:    AKxx
:    Axxxx
:    KJxx
:    ---
:
: WEST    NORTH    EAST    SOUTH
:  1D      3C       6C      P
:  6D      X        XX      P
:  P       7C       P       P
:  X       P        P       P
:
: --

I find East's bidding imaginative and sound.  6C indicates that you have
1st rnd ctl in clubs, and are willing to play in at least a small slam
in any of the other three suits. The redouble is somewhat excessive,
however.

Avi
--
Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D.         Ben-Gurion University Medical School
Dept. of Surgery A.             POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel
avir@chen.bgu.ac.il             AVIR@BGUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge