HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: don@island.COM (Don Hermes)
Subject: Re: Cycling and Doping
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:09:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.231310.22978@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> les@cs.stanford.edu writes:
>This "root of the problem" that jim wishes to attack is simply human
>nature, so I do not recommend attacking it.  In fact, I favor
>accomodating it by offering, in addition to competition under medical
>control regulations, unrestricted competition in which athletes can do
>anything to their bodies they wish.
>
>Unfortunately, in the current US political climate of the "War on
>Drugs," my proposals along these lines to the USCF Board of Directors
>have elicited only laughter or shocked denunciations.  I give them
>about 10 years to figure out that I was right.

No. 
Offering competition unrestricted from drug use, after having controlled 
it before, leaves the USCF open to bearing some of the responsobility
for the after effects of the use. 
By responsibility, I mean legal action. Huge, messy, class action suits.
By offering a special class of "free" competition you would be seen simply
as encouraging athletes to use drugs. 

And what about those athletes at the top of the non drug use class ?
How would they be compared to the ones who did whatever it would take,
short of working harder ?

Don
don@island.com

it takes 


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@sail.stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: The non-assassination of President Ford
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 22:36:49 GMT

[In response to a recent request from the editor of a newsletter for
stories about "Strange Things that have happened to Cycling
Officials," I offered instead the following historical vignette about
a strange thing that didn't happen, fortunately.]

There was a situation at the 1980 Red Zinger International stage race
that could have ended tragically in slightly different circumstances.
That was Michael Aisner's third time as a race promoter and he was
beginning to get his act together for a change.  There was an
excellent international field and the officials were treated much
better than in previous years -- they had their travel expenses paid
to come to Colorado if they weren't there already, they were provided
with housing and food most of the time, and were actually paid to
officiate -- something like $100 for two weeks of work.

Aisner was rather successful in recruiting celebrities to decorate his
events.  For example, actress Susan St. James, who was a stockholder
in the sponsoring Celestial Seasonings Tea Company and who generally
didn't bother with underwear, often hung around the judging stand.  We
now understand how her frequent co-star, Rock Hudson, could cope with
such distractions but I found it hard to focus on the finish line when
Ms. St. James was leaning over my shoulder with neckline down to there.

The Vail Criterium stage was always a hotly contested event because
the affluent residents of that resort put up good prime money to
stimulate the sprinters.  Ex-President Gerald Ford spent a lot of time
there and on this occasion had agreed to be the starter of the race.
Chief Commissaire Artie Greenberg asked me to supervise the start,
which sounded like fun.

I had dealt with honorary starters many times before, but upon
reflection realized that there was an unusual hazard in this case.
Having hosted a number of foreign dignitaries who visited my research
lab in earlier years, I was aware of the thoroughness of the Secret
Service in covering all situations.  In preparing for the start of
this race, it would be my responsibility to give Ford the starting
pistol, but I figured that about the time I got the gun out of my
pocket I would begin looking like Swiss cheese.

To get around this problem, I visited a nearby shop, talked them into
giving me a paper bag and put the gun in it.  That way I could hand
the bag to Ford and let him take it out.  I have always preferred
wholeness to holiness.

As it turned out, Mr. Ford chose to stay out on the golf course that
day, so we did not have the "honor" of meeting the man who had
pardoned Richard Nixon.  And I got to pull out the gun without having
to duck.

--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
From: gnome@pd.org (Mike Mitten)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Date: 28 Dec 92 18:44:07 GMT
Organization: The Laughing Gnome Software Farm, Atlanta, GA, USA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Jobst Brandt (jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM) wrote:
>[...]  I have no idea why some bicyclists dress as garishly  as they do.

Not that it really has anything to do with racing, but my top 10 reasons
for wearing the brightest clothes I can find while on my bike are:

10)  Visibility.
9)  Visibility.
8)  Visibility.
7)  Visibility.
6)  Visibility.
5)  Visibility.
4)  Visibility.
3)  Visibility.
2)  Visibility.
1)  Visibility.

  -Mike

Mike Mitten - gnome@pd.org - ...!emory!pd.org!gnome - AMA#675197 - DoD#522
Irony is the spice of life.     '90 Bianchi Backstreet  '82 Suzuki GS850GL
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:12:57 GMT

Harry Phinney writes:
   [.  .  .]
   Yeah, if you can't afford to arrange a series of urine tests to determine
   your maximum allowable caffeine dosage, then don't bother to race with
   the big boys.

Actually, the big guys who have run those tests still screw up
occasionally.  For example, a certain well known coach had developed
caffeine suppositories for his riders and, through testing, had
calibrated just how much they could get away with.  Nevertheless, Steve
Hegg tested positive at the 1988 USCF Track Nationals and consequently
took a vacation.
--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
From: kronos@cyberden.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: pedals vs. clipless
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 16:52:33 PST
Reply-To: kronos@cyberden.sf.ca.us
Organization: Indescribable Creations

In the racing mags one often sees both pedals and clipless 
systems in use. I've been wondering whether to get a clipless
system on my mtb, but they weight a good half pound more than 
a lightweight pedal set. So, I'm wondering if people find an 
advantage in comfort, ergonomics, pedal efficiency or just
buy them because they're cool!

"Open head, insert instructions, stir well..."
             T Reed aka Kronos@Cyberden.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: mats@netcom.com (Mats Wichmann)
Subject: Re: pedals vs. clipless
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:51:20 GMT

kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram) writes:


>I use Samson Stratics on my road bike.  I recently bought a mountain bike with
>clips, and already find myself debating over whether to get clipless for the
>mountain bike.  I *know* that I apply force to my Sampsons in directions that 
>clips won't allow, because my feet keep pulling out of the clips, and that
>never happened when I used clips on the road bike.  My guess would be that
>if you get the clipless units you won't be sorry.

This post made me think...I've heard nothing but good things about
clipless systems, except for the beef that some systems are a little
slow to get in and out of in city traffic.  The post seems to indicate
that there's a chance of getting used to doing things you couldn't do
with clips - perhaps analagous to the way doing all your indoor winter
riding on a windtrainer tends to let careless technique seep in (you
want some time on rollers).  I'm just speculating, haven never ridden a
clipless system.  Anyone have any experience/comments on this?
-- 
Mats Wichmann
Unisoft Corporation
mats@unisoft.com (or mats@netcom.com)

Silly Disclaimer:  speaking only for myself, except when I'm not.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: sandie@`` (Bert Sandie)
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Organization: `
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 15:40:11 GMT

In article <-kbrdh-@lynx.unm.edu>, sery@crunch.unm.edu (sery) writes:
|> Bruce Hildenbrand writess:
|> >> Jim Warsa wrote:
|> >>Janelle Parks (some of you may remember her - I'd guess Les would) tested 
|> >>at 14.5 mcg/ml urine in 1989 during the PostGiro in Norway, an eight day 
|> >>women's stage race held in late May. She had taken two UPTime tablets 
|> >>(containing 90 mg caffeine each) and two cups of coffee prior to the stage 
|> >>at 10:00 a.m. Her urine sample was taken at about 4:30 p.m. after she won 
|> >>the last stage (6th overall). She got suspended and was removed from the 
|> >>Len Pettyjohn led Lowery's team. Since she was my girlfriend at the time, 
|> >>I know that she took it pretty hard especially since it was her living. 
|> 
|> >Gosh, I must be naive but, what was she taking two UPtime tablets for.
|> >Since these things are loaded with caffeine, it probably wasn't because
|> >she had a headache!  This sounds to me like a clear case of caffeine
|> >abuse and she tested positive because of it.
|> 
|> Obviously she was taking it to enhance her performance.  However, it wasn't a 
|> case of abuse since two Uptimes and two coffees is NOT very much caffeine
|> and it is not a banned substance in any case.  Human physiology is so
|> variable that putting a threshold on drugs, especially commonly used drugs,
|> is a crap-shoot and thus unfair.
|> 
|> I drink quadruple espressos before tt's to enhance my performance.  I assume
|> that since I drink lots of coffee everyday and am fairly heavy I'm okay but
|> I really don't know.  So if my body assimilates it and I pass the test 
|> than I am not cheating. However, if I am the one-in-a-hundred that gets 
|> busted then I am considered to be a drug abuser.  It's that arbitrariness 
|> that makes it unfair.
|> 
|> >Sorry to be so hard on this drug issue, but I am having a difficult
|> >time here seeing the injustice of this particular situation.
|> 
|> If she had just drunk coffee would you feel differently?  The implication that
|> I read into what you wrote is that you would.  If that is correct then I don't
|> understand it because the end result of either method of consumtion is caffeine
|> in your system.  It was unfair to disqualify her and end her career because 
|> it is an arbitrary rule.  
|> 
|> Paul Sery
|> Albuquerque, NM

By IOC standards it takes about 8-12 cups of coffee (depending how strongly it is made)
to surpass the caffeine limit for illegal performance.  I think if someone has drank
this much coffee, then they are attempting to use caffeine as a stimulant.   By the way
caffeine is not a great stimulant for endurance sports, as it typically causes the user
to dehydrate.   Also, I know in Canada, the majority of sports (athletes) in Canada have
drug counselling in terms of what substances are legal/illgeal and in what amounts - thus
the athlete is fully informed!

Bert Sandie
.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 07:32:31 GMT

In article <hhgra-k@lynx.unm.edu> warsa@vesta.unm.edu (j warsa) writes:
>
>Firstly, I described this scenario since the limit of 12 mcg/ml of urine 
>was posted by someone (I think it was Les Earnest) as being an unreasonable 
>amount caffeine to ingest. I beleive it is not at all unreasonable, and as 
>evidence for this I presented Janelle's situation so we could all see that 
>even with the equivalent of 3-4 cups of coffee, someone can test positive 
>for this performance enhancing drug.

Let's get something a little straight here. A performance enhancing drug
has to pass a few reasonable tests. For one thing, addiction alone isn't
a criteria for something to be a drug. Sugar is known to be one of the most
addicting substances and yet it isn't considered to be a drug.

The known biochemical actions of coffee (caffeine) are pretty much a draw.
For any possible performance enhancing mechanism there are several performance
hindering mechanisms. Caffeine in high dosages is toxic and it's biochemical
actions alone can be fatal.

About all you can say is that caffeine makes you feel better and if you feel
better you can do better on your bike. This is a long way from pain-killers,
blood boosting or damage masking agents -- all of which can have serious health
effects when abused. With caffeine it't simple, if you use too much of it
you die. And if you use it below that threshhold it has virtually no effect.

Let's get real here and knock off the stupid caffeine bashing. Caffeine is
_not_ amphetamines, heroin or cocaine. It isn't steroids or EPO.

The fact that it is regulated suggests that people given the power to regulate
will abuse that power at in virtually every instance.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: alant@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Alan Tragarz (JD))
Subject: What a ride...
Organization: NCR Corporation, E&M San Diego
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:18:16 GMT

I was out on my lunchtime ride yesterday and around the half-way point
I see about 8 riders coming up behind me. I thought I would slow down
and ride along with some company.  The group rolled up and slowly past
me. I noticed three riders with Mercatone Uno team clothing and another
with Banestowear. I latched onto the back of the group where an
acquaintance from another local club was riding. After a brief greeting
he asked me if I new who I was riding with. I said, "No, but they sure
look like pro's.".  How about Moreno Argentin, Flavio
Guiponne (Mercatone), Heinz Imboden (Sub/Montg now Mercatrone)
and Armand de las Cuevas (Banesto). WOW, I'm riding with big time racers.
Hey, Les can I upgrade? We rode along for about 5 miles after which time
they pulled off at a bike shop. I had to keep going to get back to
work. My acquaintance had taken the day off to ride with these guys
and in retrospect I should have done the same.  If I see them out today
I'm not coming back to work. Can you blame me?

I found out that Tony Rominger is also in town.
I'm hoping that these guys get to like
San Diego and make it their regular winter training ground.

I'll post results of todays training ride!


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Cyling [sic] and Doping
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 07:15:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.160230.18662@cbnews.cb.att.com> ampe@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.e.ampe) writes:

>Well, Paul, if that happens, then caffeine will certainly be banned
>outright, since it is a dangerous, performance-enhancing drug.  Is that
>really what you want?

OK, let's see some evidence that caffeine is a performance-enhancing drug.
This entire line is simple BS since most of the laboratory monitored effects
are performance destroying (increased heart rate, enhanced dehydration,
irregular nerve firings etc.) Coffee's (caffeine's) effects are virtually all
social.

The only excuse for banning high levels of caffeine is because people who
_think_ that they get performance enhancements may use very high levels and
such is known to cause strokes and heart failure. Or that the caffeine
effectly masks other real performance enhancing drugs.
>
>Sorry, Paul, you're all caught up in your own logic.  If it's "so
>mild," then why do you take it at all?  You admit yourself that you
>take it for its performance enhancing effect.  Therefore it is not
>mild.  Janelle was also clearly taking it with performance enhancement
>in mind.  Anyone who uses a banned drug with this intent deserves to
>be caught and punished.  By the way, this has nothing to do with
>morality.  It has to do with using drugs that have known harmful
>effects.

If you are terrified of racing against mad caffeine addicts I would
suggest you not race at all.

OK, you don't like coffee. But don't give us all of this false justification
of the evils of the "drug". Maybe you ought to have rules that limit the 
amount of time you could train each week. AFter all, those who can train
longer hours obviously have an unfair advantage on you.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.edu (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Cyling and Doping
Reply-To: les@cs.stanford.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<hhgra-k@lynx.unm.edu> <ljf1gdINNrq@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:10:04 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:
   I agree with Jim's comments that all performance enhancing drugs should
   be banned and there should be no quantitative limit.

I suspect that Bruce didn't really mean to say this, but if he did, we
part company here.  There is absolutely no point in banning
performance enhancing drugs that are not dangerous.

   Unfortunately, there are some drugs that make this difficult to do.
   Steroids are a good example.  At this point in time, it is very
   difficult to detect the difference between steroids that naturally
   occur in the body and those injected with a hypodermic(or taken
   orally or whatever).

This is a problem only for testosterone and epitestosterone, which is
why they have been given quantitative limits.  Performance enhancing
steroids other than testosterone are different from natural substances
and are readily detectable.

   The same is true for EPO, which is basically a recombinant DNA manufactured
   hormone that looks and feels just like the real thing.  Detection is just
   about impossible until the normally healthy 29 year-old dies of a heart
   attack because his blood has the cosistency of molasses.

I understand that there is now a test that works in some cases.

   I think Jim has raised an interesting point that may not be very easy
   to answer.

I disagree for the reasons given above.

(From a non-MD non-lawyer.)
--
Les Earnest           Phone:  415 941-3984    Fax: 415 941-3934
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:54:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

David Fraser writes:

> Jobst Brandt asks why some cyclists "dress up garishly". This is
> usually to try to avoid having motorists run you down and then
> saying "I didn't see you". This happens all the same.

Oh wow!  First bicyclists shave legs in anticipation of crashing and
now they dress like clowns to avoid getting crashed.  By this kind
of logic I could explain almost any unconventional behavior or
appearance.  I doubt, however, that punk skateboard types would
stoop to such excuses for their appearance.

Hey!  If you can't prove it, it must not be happening... right?
Just ask Milosevic.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Trying to understand Jobst (Was: Re: Cold Weather hydration...)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:16:23 GMT

kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner) writes:
>In article <3450007@hplred.HPL.HP.COM>, jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>|> Now please don't all volunteer as subjects of this description and
>|> take this as a personal attack.  I have no idea why some bicyclists
>|> dress as garishly  as they do.  Some of them certainly play the role
>|> of the cocktail guest excellently.

I dress in bright clothing so that I am more likely to be seen by drivers.
This is hardly uncommon.  Do you wear sackcloth and ashes when you ride?
Are you a "real" cyclist as opposed to the "others"?
-Terry
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Cold Weather hydration (was: Re: Frozen water bottles)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:48:45 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

In article <3450006@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>What's the actual fact in contrast to facts.  Just because I
>suggested that you need less water in the winter and especially when
>the temperature is below freezing, you don't need to interpret that
>as never drinking water.  I drink plenty of water but not when I
>don't need it.

Your memory must be fading Jobst.  It wasn't necessarily what you said,
but how you said it.  You claimed that you didn't need any water at all
and that this water bottle in winter fad was just so that people could
look cool drinking at stop lights.  What a weenie thing to say.

>It seems to me, however, that three riders going out on a 75 mile
>ride with 5000 feet of climbing drinking less than a half bottle of
>water represents valid data.  I find the comparison of this
>experience with riders whose anodized rims have not failed amusing.
>This is not a statistical matter such that by coincidence our bodies
>did not require any water this time while on another colder day
>(when water bottles freeze) we will become dehydrated.

Heh, heh, heh.  Keep digging, Jobst, let me know if you find any
dinosaur bones.

>I see these ad hominem arguments as a retort from those who feel my
>comments about watering exercises in busy intersections struck too
>close to home.  Those who jump up and, in so many words, say "that's
>me!" and proceed to take offense, are only give credence to my
>characterization.  

See my above remarks!  Heh, heh, heh!  Oh my God, I've been found
out.  How am I gonna live with myself?  I guess I am going to live
the rest of my life in shame because, once, on December 14th, 1987,
I actually took a drink at a stop light and the reasons for doing
so were unclear.  I am not sure I needed the water for physiological
reasons, I just reached down there and grabbed my bottle and the
next thing I know, I was squeezin' it for all it's worth, feeling
that cool stream of aqueous liquid carressing and cooling my throat
as it plunged forcefully down my waiting orifice........

Oh, now I'vew done it!  I've expossed my water bottle fetish to
the whole world.  There is only one thing I can do to save myself:

	Become self-righteous and strike out at everything I see
	that I don't like!

Bruce

ps - now I have these three friends, and they swear I am faster than
Greg LeMond.......