HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: purity, beautiful people, etc.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 01:22:54 GMT

A couple of things to throw into the fray. Sport climbing is
quite a bit cheaper than gear climbing, so I don't understand
the claim that sport climbing is the domain of the yuppie. 
Climbing gyms, with 8-??? dollar entrance fees, are another
matter. Nevertheless, there do seem to be a lot of the same
sort of people at the gyms and at the sporto crags. However,
I don't think it is really fair to heap shit on sport climbing
just because certain people tend to do it. Be that as it may,
I recently was sport climbing (a new thing for me; I am used
to gear routes), and found virtually everyone to be very nice
and pleasant to be around. The 5.12+ climbers by and large were
not snobby or cliquish (sp?), although it is true there were
a few who gave that impression. But I've encountered more than
a few ugly traditionalists too. When sport climbers go bad,
they seem to form cliques and become snobs; when traditionalists
go bad, I guess they just snarl at everyone and hate the world
while they go off and whale away on some desperate affair or
other. Cool people in both camps are the norm in my experience,
and there are always a few wackos. The main thing I don't like
to see is a bolt or a pin right next to a perfect gear placement,
it just doesn't seem right. And poor bolt placements in general
(usually a bad job of bolting on rappel, I guess). As long as
sport climbers don't go bolting trad routes, I don't see why
there should be a conflict between the groups, since they will
naturally operate on different routes (i.e. those that protect
naturally -vs- those that do not). And the trad climbers are
right ... there should be classic desperates that remain that
way, out of respect the the style of the first ascent. 


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: mawagone@eos.ncsu.edu (MARK ALAN WAGONER)
Subject: Cascades Climbing/Alpinism
Originator: mawagone@c00003-118dan.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: mawagone@eos.ncsu.edu (MARK ALAN WAGONER)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:04:22 GMT


I'm organizing a small-scale expedition for a leadership development program at 
NC State.  I'm looking for an area within 3-4 hours of Seattle where I could 
some novices climbing, hiking, and snow camping, culminating with a minor summit
climb.

For safety reasons, the climbing should be about 5.4-5.8, and I can't take any
of these guys near crevassed glaciers.  We'll also avoid loaded snow fields.
We'll be going out in mid-May.

So, the questions...

IS THERE AN AREA ON THE EASTERN SLOPES (ie, less precipitation) THAT FITS 
THIS DESCRIPTION?

WILL SKIS/SNOWSHOES BE AN ABSOLUTE NECCESSITY?

WHAT KIND OF TEMPERATURES AND PRECIPITATION EXTREMES CAN BE EXPECTED?

Any info will help a lot.

Thanks,
Mark.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rwaters@spdg.com (Rolland Waters)
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Organization: Stratos Product Development Group (Seattle)
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:59:32 GMT

In article <@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> uchpcjv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>In article <@csc.ti.com>, czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon) writes:
>>Reads more like the Who's Who list of "Park Bums with Attitude Problems".
>
>Since WHEN do Fowler, Bachar, Lowe, and Croft have "Attitude Problems"????

Wait, before we start another pointless flame war, I think he must have
meant "Park Bums with *Altitude* Problems".  I, for one, based on best
FOAF evidence, know that Bachar has had major altitude problems, and 
as an example I recall an incident where he launched a parapente off
of Whitehorse Ledge in New Hampshire (which is a long way from Snow Creek
Wall in Leavenworth, WA, where a certain new route awaits people looking
for a direct way up to Outer Limits ;-). 

John, being the cost-conscious fellow that climbers tend to be, had
found a new source of cheap control line for his parapente.  The cheap
line was too stretchy, which John discovered *after* launch.  His last
words before disappearing rapidly down out of sight were "IT DOESN'T
WORK!!!!!"  Fortunately, this error didn't impact his climbing too
much, but it did dent his reputation.  :-)

This story is  true, somebody told me so.


Rolland
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: help: need rope buying info!
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:46:09 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <BRENNAN.92Oct12143935@yosemite.hal.com> brennan@hal.com (Dave Brennan) writes:
>Now that I've been climbing about 5-6 months I;m ready to get a rope.
>The problem is I don't know how to determine what to get and where to
>get it.  I think I want a dynamic rope because I plan on doing an equal
>amount of lead climbing and top roping.  I don't know what size (mm)
>to get and what kind of difference non-dry/dry/super-dry makes.

Get a fat (11mm) rope at least 50 meters long.  You can lead and
toprope on this for a while, and when you buy your next lead rope the
first can be used for toproping for a good long time.  Fat ropes have
the extra added advantage of lower stretch.

>There's several local stores in Austin (including REI) who carry
>ropes, but I'm wondering if it's worth the savings to mail order (and 
>if so, where to mail order from).

Nah.  Support your local stores.  Most mail order places do not offer
great deals.

Ken
From: L.Dekker@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Winter in Spain
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:40:29 GMT

Does anyone know of any good places to spend a couple
of weeks over Christmas and the New Year climbing in Spain?

Any information on warm, sunny places for not-too-multi-pitch
climbing across as wide a range of grades as possible
would be very welcome.

Thanks!

              Laura 
              ldekker@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: markr@sco.COM (Mark Riley)
Subject: Re: BEST climbing shoes
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 17:26:23 GMT
Keywords: shoe


In article <pevzner.717464141@ceg.uiuc.edu> pevzner@ceg.uiuc.edu (Vadim Pevzner) writes:
>Hey you expert out there!
>Enlighten me. What is the
>climbing shoe market like these days?
>Start by sharing with us
>your bias on the subject of purpose:
>should the smeering or
>the edging be more emphasised in the shoe design?
>Top it off with what
>YOU think the best shoe on the market is and what
>YOU are willing to pay for it?

** Climbing Magazine had an section two issues ago that reviewed 
** climbing shoes.  While some people may have a problem with how
** they achieve their ratings, it at least provides a pretty 
** comprehensive checklist of shoes to look at.

** I use Boreal Aces, and they have been excellent (I am a 5.9/5.10
** climber), but one thing that I never took into account when selecting
** my shoes became apparent this summer when I was climbing on a 92
** degree day - the black shoes warm up quite a bit :-)
**
** markEmark

-- 
==============================================================================
			"SCO spokesman?...NOT!"

Mark Riley, The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc., (408) 427-7117 markr@sco.com

==============================================================================
From: jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climbing helmets
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:45:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: gold.5399
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

<deleted three levels of attribution and helmet comments>

If one were to be shopping for a helmet for climbing, (say alpine
routes and loose rock areas for starters,) what is the best choice?

The Joe Brown is, I guess, a rigid shell with an EPS liner, like a
hard shell bicycling helmet.  The other choice I've seen, (Petzl) is
like a modified construction workers hardhat: rigid plastic shell with
a strap suspension setup to hold the helmet away from the head.  This
latter style seems best for comfort, coolness, and protection from the
occasional dropped biner.  It seems like for protecting your head in a
big pendulum fall, however, anything less than the Joe Brown type
probably won't do much in the way of shock absorption.

Any comments?

Jim
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:58:50 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA


> Let's face it.  Most of the population of climbing homosapiens belong to the 
> "climbing public", as that geek Alison Osius at CLIMBING calls them. These are
> the people who climb in the gym and the safe, warm sport climbs
> (play climbing).

"play climbing"!  Oh boy, now you've hurt my feelings.  Climbing gyms and
sport climbs - that does qualify for scum status.

>>>Then there are the "climbers" of the world.  People like Charlie Fowler, 
>>>John Bachar, Jeff Lowe, Peter Croft, etc. People who do phenomenal things and
>>>don't run off to get it "published".  That is, they love climbing for the
>>>beauty, joy, fear, pleasure and suffering that it brings. 
>>
>>Reads more like the Who's Who list of "Park Bums with Attitude Problems".

>Since WHEN do Fowler, Bachar, Lowe, and Croft have "Attitude Problems"????

Well we do respect some of the same people, but Bachar has proven himself to
be a butthead with an attitude problem.  I just took a look at his nice work
on The Force in Yosemite.  "Gosh I can't do Moffet's B3.  I guess the hardest
boulder problem in the Park isn't mine anymore.  So, I'm going to chop it and
claim some moral high ground."  This is just one in a string of similar
actions.  What a jerk.

>  A "climber" is someone who is adept at all forms of climbing: from thin
> finger cracks to offwidth cracks; thin slabs to overhanging, loose faces;
> skilled in aid climbing and ice climbing.  Based on this I think one can
> see just what the difference between the "climbing public" and "climbers"
> really is.  

Thanks for the definition.  What about raging ego.

> --Rawl Stenson 
> Radical Fashion Terrorist and CLIMBER Goddamnit!

You forgot to mention "one heinous macho guy".

Mort
From: cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Re 2 Worlds of Climbing
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:55:38 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <92772@netnews.upenn.edu> ian@SOFTSHOE.SEAS.UPENN.EDU (Ian
M Glazer) writes: 
> There have become 2 different worlds of climbing...
> The basic point is that the two worlds have trouble seeing eye to eye...

Yeah,

Except it seems to me the two groups are those climbers who think they
know how everyone else should climb, and the rest of us.  The problem
is that the first group has trouble seeing eye to eye with itself.

Ken
From: byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:47:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Bolt Litter (was Re: A social commentary, & equipping nature)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

> 
> I've often thought it would be cool just to have holes rather than
> bolts, and ...
> 
> Do people feel this is a feasible approach? The device I have in mind
> should actually be stronger than an equivalent bolt, and only
> marginally heavier (if at all) than a quickdraw set.  Would you use 
> them?  
> 

I don't think this is feasible.  Personally, I don't have X-ray eyes
and sometimes finding the next bolt on the route is the crux!  Especially
as well as they can be camouflaged these days.

I would guess that 1) finding the route and 2) following the route based
on small holes in the rock would be nearly impossible.  Unless of course,
the holes were marked in some way, and then you're back to the original
problem.

In my experience, many of the new routes that use painted hangers are 
invisible from about 75' away (depending on type of rock, color, etc.).
I'm satisfied with this.

John
From: aron@tikal.ced.berkeley.edu (aron bonar)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Wolfgang Gullich Dead: thats a joke, right?
Date: 14 Oct 1992 21:29:12 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tikal.ced.berkeley.edu

Gullich fell asleep at the wheel is what I've heard from several people.

Tragic
From: brennan@hal.com (Dave Brennan)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: help: need rope buying info!
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:39:35 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Austin, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: yosemite.hal.com

Now that I've been climbing about 5-6 months I;m ready to get a rope.
The problem is I don't know how to determine what to get and where to
get it.  I think I want a dynamic rope because I plan on doing an equal
amount of lead climbing and top roping.  I don't know what size (mm)
to get and what kind of difference non-dry/dry/super-dry makes.

There's several local stores in Austin (including REI) who carry
ropes, but I'm wondering if it's worth the savings to mail order (and 
if so, where to mail order from).

Any comments would be most enlightening and welcome.

--
Dave Brennan                                      HaL Computer Systems
brennan@hal.com                                         (512) 794-2855

Visit the Emacs Lisp Archive: archive.cis.ohio-state.edu:pub/gnu/emacs
From: u6404646@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Australian bolts
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:15:46 GMT
Organization: The University of Melbourne

Bolting in Australia

On the subject of bolts, it seems to me that there is a lot of unecessary
angst in the climbing community. Here in Oz, most bolts that are placed
are just ordinary coach bolts driven in with the head and (hopefully only)
4-5 mm of stock protruding. As a result, once the bolt tarnishes, and loses
its shine, it becomes hard to see from any distance, sometimes even when
you are specifically looking for it. I am sure that tourists almost never
see them, especially if there are no climbers around. The visual impact
of these bolts is thus minimal. I have walked along tracks looking for
bolts to let me know where I was, and missed them completely. The few
fixed hangers around though stick out like dog's nuts, and are basically
incompatible with a low impact approach to climbing.

From a climbing point of view, getting the bolt plate on the head of the bolt
and then rotating it into position to be clipped is often the hardest part
of the climb - especially on steep slab routes, where wiggling is the last
thing you want to do.

Finally, I have never seen (and never want to see) a bolt where a stopper/
friend/RP etc will do.

On the other hand, if we _really_ want to talk about the visual impact
of climbing, then we have to revert to the chalk wars.....

	Andrew Davies
From: Apgar@Apple.com (Gar)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Climbing Near Napa?
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:44:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Apple

In article <Apgar-121092223057@17.32.26.96>, Apgar@Apple.com (Gar) wrote:
> 
> Anyone know of any decent climbing near Napa (CA)? I know about
> Mickey's Beach and Mt. Diablo... Anything closer?
> 


Thanks for the replies - I am off to the book store to get the updated
Bay Area Rock and try out Mt. St. Helena.

Apgar@Apple.com   |   Eric Apgar  alias  Gar   |   I said it, NOT Apple.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: apurmal@us.oracle.com
Subject: Mt Tamalpais, CA info/advice request
Organization: Oracle Corporation, USA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:47:14 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

     I'd like to try some of the climbs on Mt Tamalpais listed in
"Bay Area Rock" this coming weekend.  However, the author suggests
a few friends are needed for setting up a top rope.  I'm wondering
if one can get by with some slings or some stoppers.  If anyone is
familiar with routes 4 through 8 listed on page 8 of "Bay Area Rock"
please let me know if I can set up a top rope without friends.  I
have stoppers 3 through 13 with doubles on the even numbered stoppers,
a #3 tricam and #2 and #3 hexcentrics.  I also have lots of webbing.

Thanks,

Tony Purmal
apurmal@us.oracle.com

P.S.  I'd be happy to have others along for the climbing, send me
e-mail.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: 6 worlds was Track Skiing == Sport Climbing? (2 Worlds of Climbing)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 20:36:15 GMT

In article <george.719072516@windslc> george@windslc.nrel.gov writes:
>Oh damn! Eugene's revealing my dirty secrets to the world. Not only am I
>occasionally known to clip bolts, but I ski almost exclusively on _groomed
>trails_. Now I'll never be on the Supreme Court, or be Pres of the US.
>
>(And yes, I realize my defense is the moral equivalent of "I didn't inhale.".)

Hey, I'd vote for you, even if you did.  Why you'd want the job, I don't know,
but you'd get my vote.



I forgot that I wanted to look at each of the groups for that elusive
quality "survival value."

Consider the boulderer/soloist:  great for themselves on objective hazards.
increasing risk as one gets higher.  You can't expect help from others,
reaction time is as critical as judgment.  Most people in this category
aren't as rounded as some of the others.

The sport climber/yuppie/whatever ian and others want to call him.  Probably
one of the most controlled controlling situations.  Hazards comes like
the quality of your belay/belayer.  The situation is artificial like skiing
at a downhill resort (frequently you pay for your safety).  Reaction time
tends to be as critical as bouldering/soloing with fewer consequences.

The crag climber tends to have a larger bag of tricks (gear, techniques)
than the above.  You can improvise a lot.  Increasing survival value.
They really have to learn to make do with limited resources
(e.g., what one does with a long 2 in. free climbable crack when you only
have 1-2 pieces of that size?).

The peak bagger is fine for the limited range of activity.  Most don't
carry more than a short rope and unfortunately the training of most
limit their ability to improvise.  They tend to carry less gear.
Their ability to help others is largely limited to descending.

The Alpinist is like the crag climber, his resource limits are close to
the same, but his environment is far more harsh.  More survival value again.

The expedition climber is starting to push the limits of gear.
The survival value is a necessity.  Ability automatically limits exposure
to objective hazards.  You can't move fast, but you got all this munge to
keep you alive before you have to descend.  Slight loss of survival value.
But the expedition climber can fall back to Alpine climbing for short
periods of time.


P.S. Royal Robbins will be speaking locally on his new biography.


--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rwaters@spdg.com (Rolland Waters)
Subject: Re: 6 worlds was Track Skiing == Sport Climbing?
Organization: Stratos Product Development Group (Seattle)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:24:38 GMT

In article <.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
> The crag climber tends to have a larger bag of tricks (gear, techniques)
> than the above.  You can improvise a lot.  Increasing survival value.
> They really have to learn to make do with limited resources
> (e.g., what one does with a long 2 in. free climbable crack when you only
> have 1-2 pieces of that size?).

Put a bolt in?


> P.S. Royal Robbins will be speaking locally on his new biography.

Just once I want to see an "alpine/expedition climbers are better than
sport climbers theory" that explains the depressive tendency of ex-
alpine/expedition climbers to start clothing companies.


Rolland



Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: Bolt Litter 
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
	<1992Oct12.160518.14519@samba.oit.unc.edu> <Bw17Iy.86H@spdg.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 01:09:13 GMT

** "Rolland" == Rolland Waters <rwaters@spdg.com> writes:

 Rolland> I've often thought it would be cool just to have holes rather than
 Rolland> bolts, and have everybody have a rack of bolts they insert themselves
 Rolland> (on lead) that their second would clean.  
 Rolland> Obviously, it might not work on softer rock

Does anything work that well on "soft" rock? 

Lots of routes (I've heard) in Austrailia use those keyhole bolt
hangers... So your lead rack consists of "draws" and a dozen or so of
those hangers.

 Rolland> Do people feel this is a feasible approach? The device I have in mind
 Rolland> should actually be stronger than an equivalent bolt, and only
 Rolland> marginally heavier than a quickdraw set.  Would you use them?  

Yes, possibly if they could be proven effective

--
            tim schneider

    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
           (602) 436-3078
From: gustave@crowe.seas.ucla.edu (Gustave R. Stroes)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Alpine Routes - Condition
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:53:27 GMT
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles

About a month ago my climbing partner and I headed up to the Palisade
range in the High Sierra.  Our goal was the Swiss Arete route up 
Mt. Sill.  The rating for this route varies from 5.4 to 5.7 depending
on who you read.  Since most of the route is 4th class and low 5 we
figured the biggest challenge would be dealing with the rather serious
exposure (i.e. keeping our heads together).  As we were hiking up to our
base camp the weather looked threatening but it cleared up through 
the day.  When we got closer to the actual Palisades (most of which
are over 14,000 ft) we noticed they were dusted with new snow (September)
Turns out it had really dumped rain and snow the night before we arrived.
Mt. Sill probably recieved around 6 - 8 inches of snow.  To make the story
short, we headed out to our destination the next morning at 5am.  Several 
hours later we arrived at the base of the Swiss Arete to begin our climb.
Most of the rock was covered with snow and verglass but we roped up and
had at it .  Three harrowing, minimally protected , desperate piches
later we bailed out to the snow(actually ice) filled gully to the left
of the route before there was no turning back.  Turns out we got no
further than what many would consider the beginning of the actual
climb, mostly fouth class up to there.  I'll tell you it was some of
the toughest climbing I've done.  I think they call it "mixed" climbing.
Now I'm still a little short on experience but is it generally aggeed
that a climb's rating goes up when it's covered in snow and ice?
It sure seemed that way to us.  In retrospect, it was a blast and
I can't wait to try mixed climbing again under slightly less 
ominous circumstances.  Next time I'll leave my crampons on.

Gustave