From: frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de ()
Subject: Re: Abortion vs. Adoption
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:12:59 GMT

regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
: In article <1992Sep1.095859.1655@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de () writes:
: >regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
: >: In article <1992Aug31.122431.15398@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de writes:
: >: >I'm saying that the knowledge of the child *you* might have 
: >: >raised, or might have had adopted, for that matter,  is with 
: >: >you for the rest of your life.   
: >: So is the knowledge of the children you might have raised that you 
: >: decided never to conceive.
: >Not really, Adrienne.
: >By actually conceiving, I would imagine that you are suddenly 
: >in a world of shit, which is not generally the case when 
: >deciding not to conceive. 
: 
: Oh, I don't think so.  Having actually conceived, purposefully on two different-
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
As you are probably aware, this was not part of the scenario I had
in mind.

: occasions, I didn't have to imagine my response, I could actually respond.
: Having acted as parent to two children over the years, I've thought any
: number of times about other children I *might* have had, but couldn't afford
: to.  And those speculative children are no more or less real than the aborted
: fetus, a 'potential' child, that I didn't carry to term.

You seem to be saying that your abortion is not "over and done with".  
Presumably, every other time, you think of the "fetus" as a child you 
might have had, since it is no *less* real than this speculative
family of yours.

: Now, 'I would imagine' that some people feel differently, sure.  But I would
: also imagine that MOST women are quite satisfied with their abortions, because
: they don't seem to be having a problem with it.  We've had 20 years of abor-
: tion in these United States, and some very small fraction of these women are
: undeniablly dissatisfied.  However, that information doesn't change the fact
: that some very large fraction of these women are aOK.

Depends on how you define aOK.

: >You are placed in the position of *having* to make the 
: >decision, PDQ.  You have a new option, which is having the 
: >child, then opting for adoption (which we are supposed 
: >to be discussing).   That option isn't relevant when you 
: >simply decide never to have kids. 
: 
: What, you figure most people really don't think about these things, ever,
: they just humm along fucking like bunnies with zip, nada, no thought what-
: soever to the possible outcomes?  What frame of reference are you using?

A human one.  Most people don't consider unpleasant decisions thoroughly
until they have to.

: >only  an automaton would not have at least a nagging 
: >doubt about having an abortion.
: 
: I do not have any nagging doubt.  And I am not an automaton.  This crap
: is merely your prejudice and reflects (rather badly) upon you.

You may not be an automaton, but you sure sound like one.  Most people
are not as cock-sure of their *clothes* decisions as you seem to be
about your *moral* decision.   Are you ever wrong?

Most people have nagging doubts about any important, irrevocable, 
decision, especially moral ones where the stakes *may be* human 
life.  To say so is not prejudice.  It's a simple observation of the
human condition.  It strikes me as unreal and bizarre that
such a statement should prove contentious.

If you do *not* have any nagging doubt, why do you take such offence
at any discussion of that possibility?  The only possible outcome
of such a discussion would be to reinforce your position.  And it's
hardly a *big* deal, since you say you've done nothing wrong.  Nothing
earth-shattering even.  A drop in the ocean - over and done with.
Why gives you the right to be so *goddam angry* then?  You simply 
cannot have it both ways.   Either it's a big deal or it isn't.  If
it is, I humbly suggest that you owe it to other women to say so.  If 
it isn't, lighten up.

: >But any woman I have spoken to says the same thing: "no woman
: >chooses abortion lightly".  I believe that.  I also believe
: >that something that significant alters ones life.
: 
: I don't thikn women undertake it lightly, any more than they undertake
: any invasive surgery lightly (although it is true that my conization oper-
: ation concerned me more  WRT my responsibilities as a mother than my abortion
: did).  But I hardly consider it to be life altering, either.

I'd say the difference between having and not having a child is pretty 
damn life altering. From your earlier statements about "deciding not to 
conceive" I'd say you agree.  Of course, we don't agree about the
difference between that decision and abortion.

: >I also wonder, what if it (abortion) *is* wrong?   You
: >know, suppose the z/e/f turned out to be a person all
: >along.   Suppose (whisper it) YOU GOT IT WRONG!  AGAIN!
: >Suppose that someone up there was mighty pissed off about 
: >all this pro-choicing.  Where would that leave us?
: 
: Oh come on.  "Suppose".  Suppose that someone up there was mighty
: pissed off that you stuck your nose into other people's business.  Where
: would *that* leave you!

The consequences of the so-called "pro-choice" argument being wrong 
seem rather more damaging than the consequences of the so called
"pro-life" argument being wrong.  But none of that matters, since
you are always correct.

: >If you believe in a conscience, and I believe your personal
: >experience will demonstrate this, then if abortion is indeed 
: >(morally) wrong, then women who choose it will know it - though 
: >the consequences of that are so appalling that they may drive 
: >it so deep that it is almost unknown to them.
: 
: Or -- maybe -- if abortion is NOT wrong, they'll know it -- and know it
: right up front.  And say so.  And tell you.
: 
: WHAT a concept!

I believe I said that.  Slow down and read it instead of pigeonholing
it (much as an automaton would, and almost as fast:-) and trotting out 
what you believe is the appropriate mail-shot response.

: >However, I would say that is very hard to distinguish
: >between a woman who feels genuine guilt and woman who
: >is a victim of the "guilt industry" that surrounds this
: >whole topic.  Only the woman herself can make that distinction.
: 
: Absolutely.  I'm curious, though.  Why do you figure that anybody but
: the woman involved has to distinguish between these guilts?  Especially if
: there is no guilt to be bothered with?

Why does society ever intervene in anything?  Why don't we leave each 
and every decision to the people involved?  Often, it's because the 
weak need protection from the strong.

: >I'm not really sure we're talking about the same issues, Adrienne.  
: >But you're quite correct.  I am completely ignorant of any and
: >all studies concerning abortion, and would welcome a reference 
: >to some of them.  
: 
: Larry posted an article referencing one study I recalled.  I have the
: results of another study that I'll post here:
: 
: Scientific American, April 1990:
: 
: "Scientific studies on psychological responses to legal, nonrestrictive 
: abortion in the United States suggest that severe negative reactions are   
: infrequent in the immediate and short-term aftermath, particularly for
: first-trimester abortions.  Women who are terminating pregnancies that 
: are wanted, or personally meaningfull, who lack support from their part-
: ner or parents for the abortion, or who have more conflicting feelings
: or are less sure of their decision beforehand may be at relatively higher
: risk for negative consequences.
: "Case studies have established that some women experience severe distress
: or spychopathology after abortion and require sympathetic care.  As former
: Surgeon General C. Everett Koop testified before Congress regarding
: his review of research on spychological effects of abortion, such
: responses can be overwhelming to a given individual, BUT the development
: of significant psychological problems related to abortion is "miniscule
: from a public health perspective".  (emphasis mine.)          ^^^^^^^^^

The highly regarded science of psychology meets the highly regarded science 
of statistics.   This is *very* convincing.

It's a small point, I know, but why should anyone assume that a 
guilty conscience will lead to "psychological problems which are 
significant from a public health perspective"?  Do we have a study 
which establishes that causal link?   We must have one.  Studies educate 
us, and provide us with a great means of solving moral dilemmas.  When 
we are educated, we can then make an educated decision, based on the 
facts (and only the facts), and we will always be right.  

: I posted the results of another article from a researcher named Dagg about
: reproductive choice that showed women who had been denied abortion had very
: negative responses to the denial of their own choice.  However, I don't have
: that copy in full any longer either.  I'll go looking.
: 
: >Furthermore, I guess you think that studies are always unbiased.  On
: >this topic, I wonder.  Did you do science at school?  
: 
: Wait a minute.  Are you a Suzanne clone?  "do science"?
: Somebody check the attributions!!!  Another pseudonym plot!!!!
 
Umm...you *are* an automaton, aren't you?   You do seem to
be following an algorithm...

: You'd guess wrong; I've read 'How to Lie with Statistics" from cover to
: cover, twice.  I don't think studies are always unbiased, but I *do*
: think uneducated personal opinion can't help but be completely biased.

Call me old-fashioned, but *I* can't help thinking that studies
based on psychology and statistics can't help but be complete bullshit.  

And if uneducated personal opinion can't help but be completely
biased, how on earth can you suggest leaving a decision like abortion
to the individual?  They may not have read all the books that you have.

: Adrienne Regard
--
Frank O'Dwyer		       			Disclaimer: 
Siemens-Nixdorf AG 	                        I will deny everything
Tel.  : +49 (89) 636-40639                      Fax.  : +49 (89) 636-45860
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion