From: intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac N. Truder)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Date: 24 Dec 1992 04:06:05 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


 > As with you. All Jack ever wanted was the return of his art, and
 > he didn't  even get that. What a shame. Maybe I should start a new
 > cause - based on comments Howard Chaykin made in numerous
 > interviews - like Comics 75. "Comics are shit for teenagers to
 > jerk off over and have no relevance  whatsoever". He has stated
 > that he wants to write garbage and that he really hates the
 > medium. It seems a lot of weenies in this group seem to take this
 > approach (like Libelman) - and I thought - hell, if comics are not
 > art then comics are trash. Maybe Chaykin is right.

Chaykin has long been a detractor of the mainstream comics market, and
one of the most vocal supporters of comics for more mature readers.  I
don't see anything wrong with that, and I'm not sure what it is you see
that's wrong with it.  The latest issue of DARKHAWK *IS* shit, as are
stacks and stacks of other comics.  Chaykin hates the state of the
medium, but the comics he creates are an attempt to make the kind of
comics he wants to see.  Chaykin comics, A LIFE FORCE they ain't -- but
at least they have the mindset of a feature film which, though they can
still be somewhat immature, is a couple notches above the prepubescent
crap that usually comes out of Marvel and DC.  I thought this was a
given.  I think you just misunderstood Howard's comments.

As for whether Jack got his 2000+ pages of art back or not, if he
didn't, then he has a case to force them to return the pages, nothing
more.  Unless he can get a lawyer to represent him for free, it's
probably not worth his trouble because it's not like he can reprint the
pages anyway when Marvel owns the copyright.  They'd be something to
give to his kids, maybe, but little else.

 > ( coming out next year from Marvel - a two Chaykin miniseries. He
 > is drawing again. makes you miss Black Kiss already. )

I guess Chaykin realizes that one has to work just to make a living --
at least once in a while.  Something that seems to escape you, and those
with similar artistic ideals.

 > Jack Kirby is nothing but a construction worker. He is a hack.
 > Comics are not  art. Comics are shit. Comics will never have any
 > relevence. Comics are for pea brained children. Acclaimed works
 > like the Watchman and the Dark Knight are the last gasp of comics
 > to gain the notoriety that it will never deserve. Adults will
 > never fully accept this medium as a medium for adults - and
 > looking at the products out today - can you question them. Comics
 > are an assemply line - with pitiful art and stories every month
 > from all of the companies. Comics = toothpaste = construction work
 > = blow jobs = beer = shit.

Well, once again you're falling into this tired old argument that
absorbs too many artists, critics, and everybody else from construction
workers to couch potatoes.  "Is it art??"  "What's the relevance to
society??"  "How can I justify that I spend my time reading these comics
when I should be out fighting fires and saving the world or something?"
Comics readers seem to have this obsessive desire to somehow "justify"
the medium.  If they can't come up with what they consider to be a
"valid reason" why they ENJOY reading XYZ Comic, they stop reading it,
start looking for "more mature comics" and start putting down XYZ,
whether they used to kind of like it or not.  Comics are art, okay, I'll
accept that.  What I WON'T accept is this idea that somehow art is above
all else in society, that it must have some massive universal relevance,
and that the world somehow owes artists a living, respect etc. just
because they're creative types.

My point being -- comics are art, and they're also toothpaste, beer, and
$1.75 blow jobs.  If you LIKE the blow job, it's probably worth the
$1.75 -- why struggle with these idealistic concepts of life and art?
If you can't justify to yourself why you enjoy reading comics books, go
out and save lives or something.  Just remember your activities are
equally meaningless when you do that, because we're all dying anyway.  I
say make the decisions that keep you happiest.  I feel for Jack Kirby
and all the other comics creators, but that's about all I can say for
them.  Perceived past injustices are not enough to raise my ire against
Marvel (especially considering I rarely buy their comics anyway).  Call
me unprincipled and heartless, fine -- you're a bleeding heart crusader.
Which is more noble, and which gets less ulcers, you tell me.  I'm gonna
go read a comic book.