HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Cecilia Henningsson)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:51:11 GMT

>In article <2B2523FB.12720@news.service.uci.edu>,
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes...
>>The problem is what do you do with people who screech at the top of
>>their lungs, "IT'S MY RIGHT TO HAVE THIS YOU'RE INFRINGING ON MY RIGHTS
>>TO BUY WHATEVER I WANT GET AWAY FROM ME YOU PINKO LUNATC COMMIE THIS IS
>>AMERICA AND I CAN BUY WHATEVER I WANT I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER I
>>WANT WITH MY MONEY AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME OTHERWISE!"
>> 

ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
...
>	Our western culture is based on the greed philosophy and fighting 
>against the world for supremacy. Environmentalism involves seeing the 
>forest for the trees and knowing that you are part of the web of nature, 
>that you could not live without it. But for some reason (no doubt to be 
>discussed in later posts) people want to show how much more powerful 
>they are than their environment.

[modern day example of power over nature attitude deleted]

>	Why do people feel that they must assert their power over nature? 
>The point is that we can live *with* nature, not dominate it. We need to 
>perfect or change our existing technologies to co-exist with our 
>environment and the first step towards that is changing our mindset. 
>Calling 4-wheeling over nature a "sport" is an example of behaviours that 
>we need to change. It's just chest-thumping. [rest of article deleted]

I just read a dissertation about the Pennsylvania Dutch. Specifically
it was about their view of the world and of magick. The author, Jim
Nyce, goes into considerable detail about the way these people keep
their farms and the world-view that lies behind it. Jim means that
what is most important to the the Pennsylvania German Protestants is
ORDER. Two of the examples he cites: The PGP could tell by the look of
a farm if it was inhabited by their own kind, or by someone with a
different heritage. Their farms would be much more orderly with no
discarded tools lying around, for instance. Another example, which has
more to do with imposing order on nature, are their kitchengardens
(part of "der Hof"), which all shared the same basic layout in squares
with tidy fences around. One of the interviewees told about when he
was a child and helped weeding the vegetable plot: His mother ripped
out a bean plant, that was growing in between rows. He was upset,
having got the virtue of saving and preserving imprinted upon him very
early in life. He meant that it was wasteful to weed out a beanplant,
but his mother said that a beanplant that was't in the row, was a
weed.

Maybe this sheds some light on the attitude of power over nature, it
is certainly not new. (Mail me if you want the details about the
dissertation.)

--Ceci

--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
"But my dear man, reality is only a Rorschach ink-blot, you know."
							Alan Watts
===================================================================
From: sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 13:54:31 CST
Organization: The Brewers' Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> Please note, there are pagans who work magic who are not Witches, but they ar
> in different strands of paganism than I am.  

Gee that's mighty large of you to allow me, a humble nobody, to be 
incorporated in the whole of the pagan scheme.  I consider it... tears of 
joy... such an honour!!!  I did'nt know narcicism was a Gardenerian 
Wiccin trait!!!  The ones I know were all quite humble an at peace with 
them selves. not 'letting' others use a "title" of such.
What was to Subj: Nomenclature Clearification????
                                  -Keep Smilin'-
                                       -SirByte'*
'The voice of a ture Magickian is an awe inspiring thing to behold'-
                              -Me'*

------------------
sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock)
Origin: The Brewers' Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:26:54 GMT

alizard@pil writes:
: 
: Recycling PORCELAIN??? 
: 1. There is no shortage of the raw materials (as in clay)... a good portion
: of this planet is made of the stuff. NO ONE foresees our running out of it.
: 2. Would you like to come up with an estimate on how much electrical power
: it would take to reduce a toilet into fine powder, what chemical processing
: will be required to make it practical to reuse this powder?
: This is a case where recycling would be a NET DETRIMENT to the planet.
: Chemical waste products and wasted energy. I got a good laugh out of this,
: though, thanks.

Recycle it a different way. Turn it into a reef for fish or other sea
creatures. If they can use tires, I would expect such porcelain to be
even better.

Bill

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Subject: Re: the hole in the ozone
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:54:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec7.194945.26595@mic.ucla.edu> suzi@trifid.astro.ucla.edu (Suzanne Casement) writes:
>Actually, I am a relativly severe asthmatic and I live in Los Angeles.
>I won't say it's FUN but modern medicine has made life relativly normal
>for me though it does require use of those nasty CFC propelled inhalers.
>Now if they'd just find a replacement propellent ...

Me too.  Move, you'll be healthier, happier and you will be able to hang
on to your sanity.>
>On a complete tangent, one of the main sources for methane (a greenhouse
>gas) is cow emissions.  No Joke.  A huge amount of money was spent on a
>study and that was their findings.

Also termites emit methane that is estimated to be 20 x more effective as
a green house gas.  ref: End of Nature by Bill McKibben, other references
are about if you really want them.>
>Another friend of mine also reported that one estimate claims that
>approximatly 25% of the CFCs now in the atmosphere are due to Shuttle
>launches ... a very scary statistic if true.  Anyone else heard anything
>on this?

Most of what I have heard on this is; "yes it is...no it's not...yes it is..">
>BB,
>Krystyl

BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: What is a Pagan?  
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<fWyWP1C@quack.sac.ca.us> <1992Dec16.175736.13718@athena.cs.uga.edu>
Date: 17 Dec 1992 02:21:39 UTC

In article <1992Dec16.175736.13718@athena.cs.uga.edu> 
tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>In article <fWyWP1C@quack.sac.ca.us> 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec12.222511.14395@athena.cs.uga.edu> 
>>tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>>>Let's see, there are two defninitions of pagan:  1) not a Jew, Christian, or
>>>Muslim, and 2) those who worship other gods and not the One true God.  
>>>In (2) we are talking about the individuals who are dedicated to a deity, a
>>>bit more so than having a patron saint, so to speak.  Today, these pagans,
>>>or some say "neo-pagans", believe in these deities.  Now, if they wish to
>>>cancel all of their specific beliefs out with some vague Taoist notion of
>>>the "Undifferentiated" then so be it, although I am inclined to think most
>>>neo-pagans really want to retain their personal existence and meet their
>>>deity.    
>>All right, it appears that you have a firm, exclusive definition of your
>>category two pagan, but what about your category one: "1) not a Jew, 
>>Christian, or Muslim?" Does this exclude monism and "vague Taoist notion(s)
>>of the 'Undifferentiated'," or are these category one people not "real" 
>>pagans?
>I suppose if one accepts only def (1), which I think some pagans do, then it
>is quite exclusionary.  But I never said i only accepted (1).  What general
>term would you use to describe those in (2)?

Hmm, OK, let me give you *my* definition of pagan:
1) Non-Semitic Religions
	For example: Christianity represents a pagan interpretation of
	the scriptures of Judaism and Islam represents a return from the
	pagan aspects of Christianity towards Semitic ideals;
	(separation of creator and creation, pure monotheism, no
	idolatry).
2) Various Religions of Babylon excluding Judaism
	For example: the Jews in exile in Babylon were exposed to a
	great variety of pagan religions coming from Greece, Persia,
	India and from Mesopotamia itself; yet they kept Judaism alive,
	in its original language, against all odds.
3) Religions prior to conversion to Christianity or Islam
4) Islam
	Christians refered to Moslems as pagans during the Crusades.
	Moslems refered to Christians as idolaters and non-believers.
5) Neo-Pagan religions
	Attempts to rediscover religions lost or nearly lost to
	Christian conversion.
6) Religions that attempt to combine all the world's religions into one.
	For example, Aldous Huxley's Perennial Philosophy.
7) A personal and unique religion or interpretation
8) Misc. Religions that I've missed

See anything you like?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tmd@wixer.cactus.org (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: skyclad ritual
Keywords: skyclad
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 11:51:14 GMT

In article <BzEn0o.3HH@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>I have a question. How many of you work skyclad and if so why do you
>work skyclad? ...
>... but am not sure what value add there is
>to ritual working with no clothes. I am not for doing it just to do
>it, so I thought I would ask for peoples beliefs or feelings about it
>here to get a wide range of thought...

I find that it, like the other tools, works mainly as a consciousness
focuser -- that is, it aims my consciousness toward what I'm doing, by
making it _really_ clear to my mental layers that "Here is something
that is out of the ordinary." BTW, in the Hindu tradition, nudity is
very directly associated with holiness; only those whose lives are
dedicated to the god[desse]s and those in the process of a religious
ritual are nude -- but those people [men only :-(] can be nude _any-
where_.


-- 
   Tom Davis                    Internet address: tmd@wixer.cactus.org
	"Imagine there's no countries; it isn't hard to do;
	 Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too."
   [Disclaimer: I speak for nobody but me - and sometimes not even that.]
From: michael@marcel.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan origin of Christmas customs?
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:58:54 GMT
Organization: Boston University
In-reply-to: martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu's message of 16 Dec 92 16:29:34 GMT

In article <85439@ut-emx.uucp> martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok) writes:
   
  =um, could someone describe Mithras in simple terms, and suggest some good
  =books on the matter, and who/where were the oak & holly kings.. what was
  =the wild hunt?  universal, or local?

One of the best books about the origins of the Mithraic Mysteries
is, IMHO, by a man named Ulansey. (I can't remember, but I believe
his 1st name is David. No, I don't remember the book's title.)
It should be easily found in a university library.

The upshot is that the Mysteries were of an astronomical/seasonal
nature, i.e. the course of the Sun through the Equinoxes.

The ultimate mystery of the sect, however, dealt with the then
unknown, newly-discovered, procession of the Equinoxes. The
anthropomorphic representation of this power was Mithras.

The book is Probably titled

Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries
by David Ulansey

I'll check the on-line catalogue to see if I'm right, later.

Ciao, and yuletide blessings,
Chaplin.
--
=========================================================================
Michael A. Chaplin           If you want *their* opinions, ask *them*.
michael@albert.bu.edu ....The Einstein Papers Project, Boston, Mass., USA
chaplin@husc.harvard.edu ....Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., USA
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: Santa Claus
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:20:25 GMT

>>Leaving cookies for Santa is a great idea.  Only is Santa really the best
>>choice for the role of *Santa*?  Are any of the incarnations of Solstice
>>gift giver more noticeably pagan?  Father Christmas doesn't cut it.
>>Saint Nicholas obviously doesn't cut it.  Is Santa one of the purely
>>Christian inventions for Christmas, or does he come over from some earlier
>>pagan tradition?
>

Actually, the joke that's been kinda going around some of my
Wiccan & pagan friends is that Santa is the Holly King, and since
he is "killed" (defeated by the Oak King) at the solstice, the
presents you get are just your portion of his inheritance... :)

Bb,
Angela

-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Start again.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:20:25 PST

Re: Re: Start again.
 
> From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Start again.
> Capitalism & agribusiness have done to the US just what the first industrial
> revolution did to England: thrown the people who are reasonably ok as
> farmers, out into the street, with no path before them. As we automate more
> and more, all the jobs that do *not* require much tech knowledge will go
> away, in the interest of cheaper products & "competition". The real debate
> on what we *should* do in a post-industrial society, *other* than shit jobs
> and make work, has yet to begin. Any ideas?
> mark

I've been asking myself this for quite some time. I've seen proposals for
drastically expanded educational programs... 
Anyway, thanks for asking the right questions. Answers will be needed over the
next 20 years, I believe that by 2010, the average McDonald's job will require
a degree in fast food technology and will involve the supervision of the
machines that will be preparing and packaging fast food for people... and this
is merely a sample of the changes in store for service industries.
Manufacturing largely IS automated at this point.
blessings
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
 (slogan contributed by Jessica Mc Geary)  (translated by Murray Altheim)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

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From: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: druid tree talking
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:37:10 GMT
Reply-To: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

kre@po.CWRU.edu (Keith RW Elflein) writes:

>
> Can you tell me where to get books on druidism (or celtic shamanisim)?
> really interested in learning some of the techniques. Thanks.

if all you want are the techniques, you don't need a book, just time,
yourself and the woods.  find a place that you love, that feels holy to
YOU, that feels welcoming.  go there.  often.  listen.  watch.  that's
all it takes.  that's all there is.  everythign else is just words or
an attmept to focus our attention enough to be able to see and hear and
feel what is there all around you.

                                                  -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I miss the rains down in Africa.                Silence \      / Action
Gotta take some time to do the things we           =     \    /    =
  never have...                                  Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 14:08:23 PST

Re: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
 
> From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
> : Recycling PORCELAIN??? 
> Recycle it a different way. Turn it into a reef for fish or other sea
> creatures. If they can use tires, I would expect such porcelain to be
> even better.
> Bill

Sounds reasonable. Any marine biologists want to comment? 

blessings
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
 (slogan contributed by Jessica Mc Geary)  (translated by Murray Altheim)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Public Image Limited VBBS (510) 831-3634 [MUDS] Free Internet Access.
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ljz57640@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (l.j.z. )
Subject: Re: druid tree talking
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:15:49 GMT

trd54583@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (NM156) writes:

>bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar) writes:
>>	Perhaps you could try this, and mentaly try to merge with the tree you
>>are attempting to contact. Best try it in the spring though. 
>>Winter makes trees a bit on the comatose side of life... at least in my 
>>experience.
>Mentally merging with a tree is quite a nice feeling. I did this once while 
>camping in southern Illinois. I leaned up against a tree (a lone conifer
>amongst a stand of decidous trees) with my back toward it; i put my hands 
>against it's trunk. I imagined what it was like to be a tree: being rooted
>in the ground...drinking water with your roots...water travelling up my trunk.
>Suddenly, i figure i had drawn enough energy up into me, that i (in my mind's
>eye) looked down and saw that i had become part of the tree. I remember looking
>down at the ground from a great height...in the distance, i heard some small
>animals running through the brush. Granted, this lasted only a few seconds, but
>i remember it quite vividly. Slowly, i came back to being just me standing
>there against the tree. 
>Perhaps the tree did tell me something: I got the clear impression that trees,
>or at least that one, were gaurdians of some sort. I can only hypothesize as
>to what they are gaurding; however, i am working on it. }:)

Guarding, protecting, yes... and also watching, observing, and above all,
caring and wise.  This is the distinct impression I get when I have my
regular chats with my Catalpa friend (a tree that over the past few months
I have gotten to know quite well, and who has gotten to know me well too).
The main feeling I get when I communicate with the trees is that of caring
and protecting, as if they possessed some ancient secret, which I believe
they do.    
All's I know is, whenever I would sit underneath my Catalpa friend, I could
feel its presence envelopping me, protecting me, and I could feel its
embrace, its "arms" around me, rendering me secure and serene.
Even though the trees tend to go dormant in the winter, there are times when
one may not be completely "asleep," like right now when everything is just
starting to doze, and it will call out to me for help from time to time 
(because in this dozing state the tree is somewhat weakened and not entirely
hardened off to the cold).  It is during this time that the trees need us
most, and during this time we should return the favours that they do for us
in the warmer months.

Just some thoughts,
--L.


-- 
laura j zurawski         juniper@uiuc.edu        
"Sometimes you can't explain your actions...
	sometimes you can't explain yourself"   
"PUSH THE BUTTON, FRANK!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dart@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dartanyan)
Subject: Re: What the hell to do for Solstice
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:45:45 GMT

In article <85327@ut-emx.uucp> martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok) writes:
>you know, its funny to try to come out to your parents when it has nothing
>to do with sexuality, in these days.
>
>happy snowflakes..
>sheilagh

yeah, it's called 'coming out of the broom-closet'
<|:^)
"hey, mom, there's something i have to tell you, and i don't know how you'll 
take it....  I'm a pagan/witch/druid/et al."

*gryn*

--
dart				"I'm out with MY mom.  Are you?"
aka Dartanyan the Witchling
aka Wendy Hetrick, pres. of Pagan Academic Network of Purdue University