HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE)
Subject: Re: Turkish minority in Greece ????
Organization: University of New South Wales
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:31:20 GMT

vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:
: In article <1go0g8INN6aj@TERMINATOR.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> tsiout%thailand@cs.yale.edu (Dimitris Tsioutsias) writes:
: >So, you that support the above view, can you tell me how is it
: >then than an "oppressed" minority in Greece can elect 2 representatives
: >into the greek parliament? How many Armenians or Kurds does the 
: 
: That was a mistake... proper care has been taken so that embarassing
: minority MPs will not be elected again.
: 
: >turkish parliament have? Since Kurds are 20% of the Turkish population
: >I would expect a reasonable number between 12-30, right??
: >
: >
: >->dimitris
: 
: Comparison with the far worse record of Turkey does not exonerate Greece;
: it is a shame that a country with such a glorious history of civilization
: cannot come to terms with respecting human rights for minorities, but
: instead denies them things as their ethnic identity. This kind of short-
: sighted policy was a much more important factor in alienating the Turkish/
: Muslim minority and elevating to prominence uncompromising fanatics such
: as Sadik than any encouragement from the turkish side.

	Oh come on. It's been beated to death. In the reasent human rights
reports Greece is praised for it's respect for the human rights in Greece.
To add to that a special note is made on the much improved conditions
of the muslem minorities. Also mentioned is critsism  made to the USA for 
turning a blind eye to Turkey and supplying aid contrary to their statment that
they wont supply to countries that abuse human rights. What the muslems are
called is a matter settled in the Lausane treaty for obvious reasons. They
were called muslems because they alot don't identify them selves as Turks. 
Officialy then as a group they are considered as Muslems. The books are
provided by the Turkish goverment (which only recently has bothered to send
them before the middle of the term !!!). What more should Greece do ?
Call them Turks !!! Wow that sounds quite stupid. It's like asking for
trouble the muslems probably don't want anyway. They live MUCH better
than the Turks in Turkey (let alone any other minority)


: 
: 
: - Vasilis.
: 
	A re Vasili, read a report by Amnesty internationsal, or any other
world recognised human rights report and find out independantly by you
self.
	George
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: RE : MACEDONIAN NATI
Date: 27 Dec 92 11:52:33 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:
>Erland Sommarskog writes:
>>ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS (androut@ecf.toronto.edu) writes:
>>>You say that Ancient Macedonians were neither Greek nor Slavic.  How
>>come then
>>>the Slavic people of Skopje claim to be direct descendants?
>>
>>Well, generally they don't.
>
> Well, numerous postings from the "SAS" account claim just that. And is
>the choice of the name "Alex" (Alexander) in Sasa Coneci's alter ego
>"Alex MILS" a coincidence?

If you have been following this discussion properly, you know very
well that Macedonian schools clearly teach their pupils that Ancient
and Slavic Maceodnians are not related. As for the SAS postings, they
come from different sources, including some funny nutheads in Australia.

As for Sasa/Alexander, I don't know about Macedonian, but in Russian
Sasha is the familliar version of Alexander.

> And then we have those whose version of history is somewhere along the
>lines "Well, Philip and Alexander may have been Greeks, but not the
>Macedonians".

And, except in Greek propaganda, it is also consdired an unsettled
issue whether the Macedonians were Greek or not.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:11973 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10347 soc.culture.europe:10928
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: MILS?!
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:53:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 



>Did anyone bomb MILS headquarters or something?  I've been waiting for
>the lastest Skopjian propaganda, for weeks now, nothing.

 I guess the Mis-Information Liaison Service had to close when it was
realised that for Skopjie "No news is the only good news".

 A few months ago MILS was claiming with certainty that the world will
give recognition to "M" as a "chiristmas gift" before Jan 25. We all
know how that worked out.

 And the Edinbough conference? We were told that europeans were "Sick
and tired" of Greece, and that reversal of the Lisbon decision was
imminent, and that even if Greece exercized a veto, the Europeans would
still recognise "M". We all know how that worked out. And Europeans
apparently are so sick of Greece that they announced a plan to double
their allocations to Greece by 1997.

  Now the Skopjians are pre-claiming their victory in the upcoming UN
meeting. Yawn. With a Clinton administration in the White House, and
Spain in the security council, their hopes are somewhere between slim
and none.

Michael.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Re : Macedonian Nationality
Date: 26 Dec 92 14:42:47 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Konstantin Diplas (ikdiplas@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de) writes:
> Read a little bit history and you gonna see the true ==>
>  Macedonian is greek.

Read some more and you will see that it's Slavic too. History
didn't end when big Alex died.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: W/E News
Date: 25 Dec 92 23:20:42 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Dec21.121522@imhfhp16.epfl.ch> gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros Gavrilakis) writes:
>
>
>A collection of stories from the weekend press :
>
>
><<The Greek wine accused of lukewarm nationalism : A call to boycott
>the Greek wine Makedoniko was launched by the Greek ultra-nationalist
>weekly "Stochos", which accuses the Greek producers of this product
>of lukewarm patriotism. "Despite our protestations, the company
>Tsantalis still sells its wine under the name Makedoniko, without
>proclaiming clearly that this term can only signify a Greek product"
>affirms "Stochos", accusing the firm that is looking for clientele in
>the ex-republic of Yougoslavia, Macedoine.>> (LNQ)
>
>---------------------
>
>sg


	"Stochos" is a stupid newspaper read by about 2,000 fanatics,
    mostly admirers of the junta. So why do you post this, I don't
    know. It's not like some serious person or organization has
    advocated it.

	And in any case it would be the worst way to serve the nation.
    Simple reason: The Skopjie government is trying to acquire a
    copyright on the name "Macedonia". For this reason they sought
    an injunction against the import of "Makedonikos Halvas", which
    is a product of Greece. So now "Stochos" is trying to do their
    job for them.

	As for the company trying to sell its products in Vardaria,
    or enganging in any other business deals (opening factories,
    bartering or anything else), I am a devout capitalist, so:
    I applaud it as long as it holds the national line. Although,
    i believe that with the break-up of that republic that is in
    the cards, it is a very early and risky business move.
	
	Georgios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,sci.classics
From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Greek names...
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:15:39 GMT

In article: <BzGFH3.6Jn@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>
cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:

>... The Romans got their alphabet
>from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as to
>whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greek
>alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearest
>Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greek
>alphabet. 

Richard, wasn't Cumae a colony of the greek city called Cyme, in Euboea?
(the colony retained the name Cyme,  Cumae being the latin version).
That is the only theory I am aware of (I can't pretend to have much
knowledge on the 
topic!), i.e., that Etruscans took their alphabet from Cyme. But did
the mother-city (metropolis) in Euboea use the west form of the alphabet?

L. Skartsis
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: RE : MACEDONIAN NATI
Date: 26 Dec 92 15:18:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 

Erland Sommarskog writes:
>ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS (androut@ecf.toronto.edu) writes:
>>You say that Ancient Macedonians were neither Greek nor Slavic.  How
>come then
>>the Slavic people of Skopje claim to be direct descendants?
>
>Well, generally they don't.


 Well, numerous postings from the "SAS" account claim just that. And is
the choice of the name "Alex" (Alexander) in Sasa Coneci's alter ego
"Alex MILS" a coincidence?

 And then we have those whose version of history is somewhere along the
lines "Well, Philip and Alexander may have been Greeks, but not the
Macedonians". Yeah sure. What is the emblem of the Perdicas Dynasty, the
Sun of Vergina, doing on the Vardari flag, if Perdicas/Philip/Alexander
were Greeks?

Michael
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Thank you Cosar! Thank you Mutlu!(was Re: Where does Yannis
Date: 26 Dec 92 15:32:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Yiannis Schoinas writes:
>A few months ago, I had practically begged Mutlu to use my name in the
>subject line, a honour reserved to his worst enemies. At that time,
>despite my efforts he refused to do so. I was greatly dissapointed. But
>finally my dream came true. I don't know how to thank you guys. Thanks!

 Ama den erqei apo ton Moytloy h timh ayth, den metraei!

 Gia na graytei to onoma soy apo ton Moytloy, xreiazetai h katalhlh
texnikh. Pare maqemata apo mena. Meta to prwto (nai, to prwto) moy
mhnhma sto USENET (meta apo apoxh 2 etwn) eixa hdh "Subject' me to onoma
moy (Se morfh Pol*, fysika). Prin apo merikes ebdomades malista, eixe
kai thn idia timh o papous moy, o opoios enaferqhke se 'Subject' line
apo mynhmata toy Argic.

 Me ligh prospaqeia, isws na ta katafereis kai sy!

Mixalhs

`C8^):  [Smiley face #156: Ellhnas me skoufo tsolia, gialia, megalh myth
kai ajyristos.]
                              
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:28:10 GMT
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <10870.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

>1) The Greek Government has been paying to maintain Turkish language
>schools in Western Thrace since the 20s. As a result the literacy rate
>of Turks in Western Thrace is higher than that of their relatives
>across the border. Contrast that with the long standing policy of the
>Turkish Government to forbid the use of Kurdish in public places. Until
>recently, it was even a crime to speak Kurd at home! It is still a crime
>to speak Kurdish outside one's home.

I have posted this information roughly 10 times now.  The ban on the
Kurdish language was for public use, as in publishing papers, using in
court (when testifying), and for broadcasts.  As far as I have lived in
Turkey I have heard Kurds speak Kurdish, on the streets.  This ban,
however deplorable, was based on some obscure law that said that allowed
languages in Turkey were languages of the states that Turkey
recognized.  Since there was no Kurdish state, Kurdish was forbidden.
This law is no longer in effect and I suggest you go to Turkey to
witness the plethora of Kurdish cassettes etc.  

>
>2) There are usually two or three Turkish representatives in every Greek
>parliament. They take their parliamentary oath on the Quran, and give
>public speaches in Turkish, etc. Thats for the Turks who are less than
>1% of the Greek population. When have Turkish Kurds been afforded these
>rights? And they are 20% of the Turkish population.

There are Kurdish parliament members in Turkey.  There are Kurdish
cabinet members as well.  They do not take parliamentary oath on the
Quran, noone does since Turkey has separation of church and state.  As
for public speeches, I for one will not vote for a parliament member who
comes to me, requests my vote and does not speak in my language while
addressing me.   

Please do check your facts, I am getting tired of seeing the same
stuff posted over and over again.

regards,
Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu








Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:11963 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10324 soc.culture.europe:10912
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: How typical (and pathetic) are the sources that they use
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:05:47 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Michael Polymenakos (michael.polymenakos@factory.com)  writes:
>>Encyclopedia Italiana is a full-size encyclopedia in 30 books or so.
>
> And in the 1930s, all its content originated or was approved by the
>facist party. Wanna bet?

So dismiss the source if you like. (But I don't find your arguments
convincing at all.) Now, tell us what's wrong with the French 1900 
encyclopedia which says the same as the Italian one.

And of course you have to tell us why the source Milan Pavlovic
cited should be considered more trustworthy.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Jag gav en k{ck tjeck en check.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:11708 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10206 soc.culture.europe:10665
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish minority in Greece ????
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:24:10 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Dec21.113120.14179@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) writes:
>vh@cs.columbia.edu (Vasileios Hatzivassiloglou) writes:
>: 
>: Comparison with the far worse record of Turkey does not exonerate Greece;
>: it is a shame that a country with such a glorious history of civilization
>: cannot come to terms with respecting human rights for minorities, but
>: instead denies them things as their ethnic identity. This kind of short-
>: sighted policy was a much more important factor in alienating the Turkish/
>: Muslim minority and elevating to prominence uncompromising fanatics such
>: as Sadik than any encouragement from the turkish side.
>
>	Oh come on. It's been beated to death. In the reasent human rights
>reports Greece is praised for it's respect for the human rights in Greece.
>To add to that a special note is made on the much improved conditions
>of the muslem minorities. Also mentioned is critsism  made to the USA for 
>turning a blind eye to Turkey and supplying aid contrary to their statment that
>they wont supply to countries that abuse human rights. What the muslems are
>called is a matter settled in the Lausane treaty for obvious reasons. They
>were called muslems because they alot don't identify them selves as Turks. 
>Officialy then as a group they are considered as Muslems. The books are
>provided by the Turkish goverment (which only recently has bothered to send
>them before the middle of the term !!!). What more should Greece do ?
>Call them Turks !!! Wow that sounds quite stupid. It's like asking for
>trouble the muslems probably don't want anyway. They live MUCH better
>than the Turks in Turkey (let alone any other minority)
>
>
>: 
>: 
>: - Vasilis.
>: 
>	George


	I personally am against calling them Muslims. Let me explain.
    About 1/3 of the 100,000 Muslims of Thrace identify themselves as
    ethnically Turkish. The rest are gypsies and Pomaks. But, Greece,
    by insisting on calling all of them Muslims without singling out
    those that are ethnically turks, actually drives the rest to
    identify with Sadik and Faikoglu who are not really representing
    them.

	I believe that Greece should let those that ethnically identify
    themselves as Turks do so freely and publicly. Putting all the
    Muslims of Thrace in the same bag hurts Greece. Alas, divide and
    conquer is a technique that we seem to be unable to grasp. We need
    to get the British to teach us some lessons.


	Georgios
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: HELP!
Date: 23 Dec 1992 21:34:14 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

This does not compute. In the last couple of days I've seen 29 
Mutlus posted in all groups except soc.culture.turkish. Why?

Second, Mutlu has picked a decent fight with the regulars in
news.admin.policy. Highly entertaining. 

Third. A Mutlu newbie made the mortal mistake of mailing a few
articles back to zuma-land. the response of the postmaster (read
secretary) of anatolia was excemplary. Well done. 

Fourth, Merry Christmas everyone! Happy New Year, etc etc. 
(Re Gavrielato, steile kai se mas kanena salami, oxi ola ston Arxida :-)

Spiros
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.soviet
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Rumor: Cosar-Argic-Mutlu Used in Fusion Experiment
Summary: the exploding chick pea bomb 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:26:46 GMT

In article <199301020340.AA10170@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.
delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) wrote:

[ST] Hey folks, happy new year to start off. I logged on to check the
[ST] new year news and son-of-a-gun, Mutlu's disappeared again. The latest
[ST] fight in news.admin.policy may have done it, as this time our feathered
[ST] friend took his Turk-o-phonics to the big guys...
[ST] 
[ST] If you havent's checked it out, you oughta to. Some interesting trivia
[ST] about his mail/news feed also. 
[ST] 
[ST] Let's see if that was the silver bullet after all. 
[ST] 
[ST] Hoping but not convinced,

Please Spiros...let's not underestimate the resolve of a pack of hermaphrodite
Turkish fascists! However, I suspect you gave it away with your "bird" analogy! 

Rumor has it that Lawrence Livermore Labs heard the Cosar-Argic-Mutlu tag team
was afflicted by a very rare, and heretofore unknown, case of chronic tenesmus,
caused by five years of eating dry bird food (and prune juice) in the form of 
thick peas and never taking a "break". LLabs required a local explosive capable
of fusion temperatures. After hearing of the expected explosion someplace in
Minnesota, the U.S. government asked Ankara (based on a prior NATO agreement) 
to borrow this "accumulated compresson" for a new form of fusion power known as
"Revision-Inversion". Yet to be proven in practice, this new method of power is
based on the ability of transveral abdominal force fields to counteract an 
outward pressure of accumulated CH4 under pressures over 1.24556 E+15 kg/cm2.

If this experiment works, it will prove once and for all that the Cosar-Argic-
Mutlu tag team can in fact also "revise" the binding enery curve...and get away
with it! If successful, the Turkish government will have their own version of
an atomic weapon called the exploding chick pea bomb or the "patlamis lelbeli" 
bomb!


-- 
David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org> |"The massacres? Oh well! They merely  
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | amuse me!"  -Talaat Pasha, architect of 
P.O. Box 382761                      | Turkish the genocide of Armenian people. 
Cambridge, MA 02238                  | (Four Years Beneath the Crescent, p 208) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com (e and )
Subject: Re: continuation on Cyprus, rabbies, antipalikaritis
Organization: BCR, NJ-USA
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 00:36:51 GMT

In article <9212211936.AA01273@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com writes (?):
>you're wrong. If it were, I would have used it. (SHOCK THERAPY WORKS)).
>
>Dr. ISpitroskiye Triantasipaopoulos
>--
>(I actually worked in a hospital in Greece, lots of fun folks...)

Spiros,

I might hit a raw nerve.  As you guessed it, the writting mistakes 
that you have pointed out are the result of very late and tiresome hours
of last Sunday and a primitive line editor. Truly sorry for your 
reading troubles.  

You see if everybody acts properly, there would be no problem for the 
communications in good taste.  Since you are breaking new grounds 
everyday in the name of combating with Argic, Besime, Baysan, etc. by 
getting more and more personal, I decided to handle a king of palik 
from the state of Illinois, who constantly desires picking a bone 
with me and the rest of the Turks.     

I am sure you get the sprit behind my respond.  Although I don't need to
post all of it again, I would like to run the last part (an edited 
version) by you one more time.  I think you may have some comments since
this part is near and dear to your heart.  (I saw that you were making 
proposals on that subject.)


>Like the Israelis who never agree to Arafat's leadership
>of Palestinians, Greeks are also trying to smear Denktas always to get 
>away with their unjust acts in the past.  The problem that Greeks have 
>is the confusion with Denktas' position with Arafat's.  He has the 
>upper hand in this negotiation based on the recent history of Cyprus.
>He is the only guy around to be negotiated with.  Moreover, there is no
>equitable solution for everybody's satisfaction in Cyprus.
>How could it be after all those years when the Turkish Cypriots 
>have been always forced to draw the short ended stick?  
>Some may say that 18 years of refugee status in the south was not
>enough to pay the ill deeds .  Well, the answer is "not really" after 
>considering who suffers the most economically and who finds 
>multimillions for the arms.  Greeks cannot simply get back whatever 
>they had before.  This is a fact.  Now, the turn of picking the short 
>stick is Greeks' for all these past times' sake.  This is the 
>unfortunate result of their violent and unjust ventures in the island.
>Denktas says that Turkish side is willing to pay for the balance of 
>property claims after the calculation of the worth of Turkish property
>left in the south.  However, he says that the Greek side has to give 
>a chance for the Turkish Cypriot economy to recover.

>Asking a third party mediation..  I consider this is
>another joke.  We all know very well what the third party mediation
>means by now.  To date there is no permanent resolution
>in anywhere accomplished by a third party involvment.  If anybody who 
>has a doubt, he/she may ask Bosnians, Macedonians, Armenians, Azeris, 
>Kurds, etc. etc.  

>C. Akgun