HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: max@megatek.com (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: A pain in the shin!
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:17:34 GMT

From article <1992Nov16.183859.15257@andersen.co.uk>, by darby@andersen.co.uk (Dave Darby):
> I often find that after a session on my local climbing 
> wall I get a pain behind each shin.  I believe this is  
> known as "shin splints"?
> 
> It seems to occur mainly when I do a lot of delicate footwork
> which stretches and contracts calf muscles.
> 
> Does any one know what the cause of this is and any warm up
> exercise to prevent it?

  Well, it's not your calf muscles that are the problem. It is the
  muscles along the FRONT of your lower legs (either side of your shins).
  They are too weak with respect to your calf muscles. This is how 
  runners get 'em too. So, the excercises for prevention involve these
  muscles. Sit on a table or high chair and put heavy books on your 
  feet. Now raise your toes. Feel it pull along the fronts of your
  lower legs?  These are the muscles that need strengthening until 
  they are no longer overwhelmed by your calves.

  Cheers!
-Max
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
Subject: Re: Cleaning the smell out of rock shoes?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:22:32 GMT

pggreen@juliet.caltech.edu (Green, Peter G.) writes:

>Help!

Try soaking 'em in milk.  Works great.

>Thanks,

Glad to be of assistance.

Eric Hirst
eric@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jking@socs.uts.edu.au (smathy werp)
Subject: Re: What to choose for eye protection (prescription) ...
Organization: Computing Sciences, Uni of Technology, Sydney.
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:37:46 GMT

jagat@gda.cadence.com (Jagat Patel) writes:


>        I am looking for some opinions on choosing eye
>   protection (prescription) while climbing (against 
>   high wind and sun/snow blinding).  Are ski goggles
>   over the regular prescription glasses the way to go?
>   Is there a better way?  If not, what ski goggles
>   work the best?

jagat ..
	Oakley make a special goggle designed to fit over glasses ..

	thats all
--


	| Life: Jason | IRC: elephant | email: jking@socs.uts.EDU.AU |
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: learning to lead
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:17:31 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>bolts being placed where they are not neccessary if the leader would just
>hang around to place the gear.


I started climbing in the machine nuts on string era. Bolts are a wonderful
invention, you cna get on with the climbing instead of wasting all your
time and enthusiasm fiddling silly lumps of metal into chossy cvracks
that are the wrong shape anyway. Stick bolts beside all cracks. Outlaw
natural gear. I LOVE bolts.

I HATE this machibne, its too slow to allow correction of typos; so theyre
your problem
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Doug.Hemken@launchpad.unc.edu (Doug Hemken)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Ice Climbing towers
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:10:19 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service


Funny you should ask -- several of us were discussing this last night!  The
two fellows who have been involved in ice tower construction for the past
few years were pretty adamant that "only a fool would try to build an ice
tower."  You face two major engineering problems:  (1) building a
structure that is tall enough to be sporting yet strong enough to support
the weight of the ice, and (2) devising a water source that can be kept
free running.  (1) took them several years of trial and *spectacular*
error (not to mention the $$ and labor involved).  (2) only works if the
property owner's family doesn't take showers on the crucial nights.  And
then once it's built, you still have to wait on the proper weather
conditions. . . .

-=> Doug Hemken

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Law Suits!!
From: hugh@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 01:43:16 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand

In article <1992Nov18.011845.3805@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>The right to sue is intimately tied to issues of free speech.

I don't think so: we in NZ have all the rights of "free speech", yet have no
rights to sue for accidents.

>Do you want to forego these rights?

It's a two-edged sword.  Our state-funded Accident Compensation scheme no
longer pays out as generously as before.  Payments for "loss of enjoyment
of life" have been discontinued for example.  There is a possibility that
the law will be changed to allow sueing after all.  

May we live in interesting times :-)

-- 
Hugh Grierson          Fujitsu/ICL New Zealand - Software Development Centre
hugh@nezsdc.icl.co.nz                Speaking for myself only.  See figure 1.
    Quote of the decade: "We're not just talking about unpopulated areas
     of the Southern Hemisphere anymore" [Pres. Bush, on the Ozone hole]
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backpacking
From: john@aquarius.unm.edu (John Prentice)
Subject: Recommendations on 4 season tents
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 06:17:18 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astro, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

I am looking to purchase an expedition quality 4 season tent.  I need
something for serious conditions, very high winds and quite a bit
of snow.  I have been looking at the North Face Oval-25 and the Eureka
Traverse, among others.  These two come to mind because I can get them
quickly and I need them for a trip to Aconcagua in January.  I would like
to get something which will work on Denali this spring also.  Does anyone
have any experience with either of these tents?  Anyone have any 
recommendations for 4 season expedition tents?  

If anyone has recommendations for a small 2 man which can handle high winds
and moderate snow, but which is lightweight, I would also be very interested
in that.  My Aconcagua trip is solo, so I am looking for a compromise that
is good in high winds and moderate snow.  However, if I can't find a 
lightweight tent that fits my requirements, I'd prefer to not waste my money 
and instead buy a good (but heavier) 2 man expedition tent that I can use in 
Alaska this spring.

Thanks for any recommendations or information.

John
-- 
Dr. John K. Prentice                      
Quetzal Computational Associates    
3200 Carlisle N.E., Albuquerque, NM   87110-1664  USA
Phone: 505-889-4543  E-mail: quetzal@pinet.aip.org -or- jkprent@cs.sandia.gov
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ddj@fc.hp.com (Doug Josephson)
Subject: Re: Cleaning the smell out of rock shoes?
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:09:05 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

I put a couple of cedar wood blocks in mine after I climb, it seems to help.

Doug Josephson  ddj@fc.hp.com  Fort Collins, CO


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Whitney and WINTER!!
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:37:19 GMT

In article <ufessex.721790329@mcl> ufessex@mcl.ucsb.edu
(Fabian E. Schonholz) writes:
>mail saying that I should get off the Mt....
>I climb at my own risk

Hey that's the way it should be done.
Evolution in action.

I was sitting on a ledge with English Bob over the weekend.
He described one recently partner from another local computer company.
The partner said: (just before starting up a climb)
	Oh, BTW, you do have insurance don't you?  In case I or
	my relatives sues you.
The fellow was totally serious.  He was asking on the assumption that
Bob would be protected in case of a suit.  Bob decided not to ever climb
with him again.  Now, this fellow's out there roaming around.....

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon)
Subject: Difficulty Rating Scale for Ice Climbs?
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:30:53 GMT

Which difficulty scale is most commonly used for rating ice climbs?  FREEDOM
indicates that it's Sole's.  Is there a listing with difficulty data for the
more popular ice climbs in Colorado?  I don't recall ever seeing one.

Cary Czichon
czichon@csc.ti.com
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cleaning the smell out of rock shoes?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 13:32:40 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

del 10/lle <20NOV199209484318@juliet.caltech.edu>,
pggreen@juliet.caltech.edu (Green, Peter G.) writes:
>Help!
>
>Mine have gotten really bad and considerable amounts of water and
>baking soda haven't been able to do the job.  Any suggestions are
>welocome; I don't want my girlfriend to quit climbing with me!
>Email replies will be summarized if appropriate.
>
Can't help with the shoes, but I recommend you leave your girlfreind
at home if decide to take up mountaineering.  4 or 5 days in the
same polypro and your rock shooes will smell like lilacs by
comparison.  :-)

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: Sedona, AZ
Followup-To: rec.climbing
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:40:42 GMT

Anyone do climbing around the red rocks of Sedona.  Looking for some info

Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge, Arizona
From: flag@banco.bellcore.com (Steve Waddell)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Californiphobia (use to be: Trip Report: A Day in Eldorado
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:10:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: walter.1992Nov17.001025.20775
Organization: Bellcore

In article <106480311@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
|> > 
|> > >I think there is an attitude problem towards anybody who is not from
|> > >Colorado.  Xenophobia.
|> > 
|> 
|> I don't think it's Xenophobia.  I think it's fear-of-becoming-like-california:
|> Californiphobia.  (i.e. Overcrowded, and all the things that stem from that.)
|> 
 Hey, give credit where credit is due, they just took what we have in
 New Jersey and expanded it to a larger scale (overcrowding, etc)
 Jerseyphobia!

 "If you knew Jersey like I knew Jersey..."
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: learning to lead
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:55:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Nov16.074809.20172@watson.ibm.com>
eru@titlis.zurich.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche) writes:
>BUT this is not an argument for learning to lead ! Today leading should be
>learned in a fault tolerant environement.

F-T: you must be working with Liba Svobodova on fault tolerance. 8^)
I think in general we would not disagree with you, but we recognize the
inherent hazards of the activity.  We fool no one by ourselves.

>I really don't think that it is necessary that todays beginners have to make
>the same very long way to leading I (we ?) made 10-15 years ago :
>climbing second, climbing 1st in easy grades, climbing 1 in hard grades and
>bad pro, first ascent in hard grades and finally nice climbing with
>good bolts (see above).

Personally, I don't see a duration associated with the apprenticeship which
most leaders go thru.  Gifted climbers will pass thru the above no sweat,
but I chuckled with nice climbing and good bolts coming last.  I would hope
they got to that before bad pro climbing.

>I know that it can be problem to learn the 2nd step, but that is not
>necessary for many people. They stay in their overbolted area and are happy.
>People who learn it this way learn it fast and may become excellent climber
>and alpinists.					^^^

See I think that "may" is part of the issue.  What do you suggest instead
of the progression (crawl before you walk ...climb)?  Learning to lead
on the first day? Etc.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
From: rob@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Trip Report: A Day in Eldorado
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:13:38 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England

Cary Czichon (czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov12.192254.17711@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky) writes:
: 
: >I think there is an attitude problem towards anybody who is not from
: >Colorado.  Xenophobia.

Did you know that Xenophobes is an anagram of Phone Boxes, my favourite
anagram of all time.

Just a bit of trivia, it is monday morning you know!
R>
................................................................................
 Rob Stone, Dept of Psychology, University of York, YORK. YO1 5DD.  UK.
         rob@minster.york.ac.uk      Phone/Fax   +44 904 433160
         "I love lard;  Hands up if you like lard"  Emerson Lake 
................................................................................
From: pavelg@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Pavel Gazur)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:20:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Yes, we do exist (non-US climbers)
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (SRSD MWTD)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

	
	
	If you want to check out some Slovak mountains
	You will have to travel to Csechoslovakia northern part
	of Slovakia to get some real climb. It is called 
	High Tatras. This is a solid rock and if weather is
	good ( changes very fast specially in winter ) you
	can have some real fun. I recommend to check out one
	called 'Hokejka' on peak called 'Lomnicky Stit'.
	It is rated European VII . I know you expected a message
	written from Europe but I beleive even now you would find
	almost none or very few people in slovakia who have 
	exess to USENET so I thought for all of you who want
	a new climb in Europe - there it is.

        Later,  
			paul              

        pavelg@sr.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: kjl@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (K J Leiden)
Subject: One arm pull-ups (was Macho quiz)
Organization: Lockheed
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 00:24:05 GMT

In article <106480316@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison) writes:

>Other interesting questions:
>-  Can folks do a one-arm?  I can't quite.
>-  How much weight or what percent of body weight can you add and still do
>   one pull-up?  I've done this with 90 lbs (about 68%).
>-  How many pull-ups can you do in 20 minutes (endurance)?  My best was 20
>   sets of 8 for a total of 160.

Its been my experience that there is little correlation between 
the number of two arm pull-ups a person can do versus having the ability 
to do a single one arm pull-up.  Specific muscle conditioning is
required for one arm pull-ups.

I have found the best training for a one arm pull-up is the
following. 
           1) Do a two arm pull-up 
           2) When your chin is above the bar, let go with one
              hand and try to lower yourself down as slowly as
              possible.  (at first you'll drop like a rock)
           3) As you get stronger and are able to lower yourself
              as slowly as you wish, try lowering down until your 
              elbow makes a 90 degree angle and hold this for
              as long as you can.
           4) Once you can hold the 90 degree angle for a couple
              of seconds, work on pulling yourself back up.
           5) Increase the angle by 15 degree increments and
              repeat 3 & 4
           6) Once you get to the point where your arm is
              almost fully extended, your progress will hit a wall.
              This happened to me and I never got past it.
              I could do one arm pull-ups if the angle was 160 degrees
              or less,  but I couldn't even pull-up an inch if
              I started fully extended.

This training, BTW, did squat for my leading ability.

-- 
Ken Leiden
Sunnyvale, CA
kjl@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: brendan@buck.ac.uk (Brendan Murphy)
Subject: Gasherbrum IV
Organization: University of Buckingham
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:11:24 GMT

Can anyone put me in touch with the US team that was on the south side of
Gasherbrum IV this summer?

Thanks,

Brendan
-- 
********************************************************************************
Brendan Murphy					brendan%buck.ac.uk@uknet.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science			Tel: 0280 814080
University of Buckingham, MK18 1EG, UK		Fax: 0280 822245
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: davem@cmn2.Stanford.EDU (David K. Mellinger)
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Organization: CCRMA, Stanford University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:15:38 GMT

Greg Jahn (jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu) writes:
> Wouldn't it be reasonable to propose to the forest service
> that they stop ALL welfare logging....

My vague memory of how it works is this: Congress appropriates a
certain amount of money for National-Forest roadbuilding.  This amount
is unrelated to the amount that the Forest Service collects for tree
sales.  They're in unrelated "accounts", so the fact that taxpayers
lose money on the deal never shows up in the figures.  USFS gets to
spend some proportion (100%?) of the tree income on other things, like
building trails, maintaining campgrounds, and hiring administrators.
So it's to the Service's monetary advantage to encourage logging, as
it increases income.

This is obviously a destructive system, but it's what exists.  A lot
of foresters are unhappy with the state of the forests but are
powerless to change it, given this system and the strong political
pressure to keep it in the forest-products-companies' favor.

Money from hikers will never come anywhere close to the money from
selling trees.

It's ridiculous to pay money, even $1, to walk in the woods.

Disclaimer: This information is worth what you paid for it.
            If you're paying for your net connection, it's
            worth much less.

				Dave Mellinger
				davem@cs.Stanford.EDU

P.S. Was Senator Plywood re-elected in Oregon?
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:32:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Nov19.231538.27927@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> davem@cmn2.Stanford.EDU (David K. Mellinger) writes:

>P.S. Was Senator Plywood re-elected in Oregon?

Yup.  It helps to have an opponent like he did, formerly one of the
"rubbergate" congressmen.  Packwood ran a fairly dirty campaign but
of course AuCoin (his opponent) provided him with plenty of 
ammunition.  A pox on both their houses.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: tgoliber@alleg.edu(Tom Goliber)
Subject: Climbing areas (or gyms) near metro Detroit?
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:17:05 GMT

The subject line pretty much says it all.  I'll be visiting family there  
next week and was wondering if there's any place to climb.  Having grown  
up in the area years ago, I know that much of the terrain is as flat as a  
pancake, but maybe there's something there that I missed.  Or if not, have  
any climbing gyms opened in the area?  Thanks in advance for any  
suggestions.

Tom Goliber
tgoliber@alleg.edu
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:53:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Macho quiz (for Laura)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

In rec.climbing, bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington) writes:

> 
> I think you are right in expecting the degree of correlation to depend on the
> type of climbing that people do.

Maybe to a small degree.

> Pull-up strength almost completely controls
> how hard a route you can do in the Shawangunks,

You are joking, right?  TECHNIQUE almost completely controls how hard a route
you can do ANYWHERE!

> whereas it's almost irrelevant
> in slab climbing.

Right.

> I think the correlation between finger strength and climbing
> ability is likely to be stronger. Or better, finger strength divided by body
> weight.
> 
Contact strength.
This is the most important strength factor.  But even finger strength has two
aspects: power and endurance.  What's the worst/smallest hold you can grab
from the ground and pull on? vs. How long can you move on holds that are 50%
bigger than that worst hold?  These are very different.


Mort
From: sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Wanted: Desert tower recommendations
Date: 19 Nov 92 10:26:40 MDT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Utah State University

Advise on some desert classics wanted....
Looking for some nice towers to bag this winter. I've done kor-ingals
on Castleton and ligntning bolt cracks on N six shooter. Looking
for recommendations for other classics up to mid 5.11. Considering
primrose dihedrals - anyone know how grim the offwidth is? What else is
good. I have a 4wd truck, so access is not a major concern.
Thanks for any advise,
Bob.
PS, Hopefully (if I read the instructions right) this is USA limited.
If I get lots of international replies, well, sorry!
 
bobs@biocat.ncdmf.usu.edu

--------------Ethical Bolt Chopping Is Done ON LEAD---------------
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Law Suits!!
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 02:06:24 GMT

>|> post said description or a reference to one.  The Chouinard case is the
>|> only one I know of, and I haven't seen the complete details here 

In article <1992Nov13.193046.4076@aimla.com> jc@optimla.aimla.com
(John VanHoozer) writes:
>Sorry,  I can't post any more details on this.  But isn't it true that
>the Sierra Club's BMTC was canceled because of the amount of money that
>they had to spend on lawsuits every year?

Time to do some off-net research on the case law.
Numerous people have died, been injured, sued (or families have sued)
the Sierra Club, Outward Bound, NOLS, Yosemite Mountaineering, etc.

The Club decided to cancel its policies' coverage regarding what it perceived
as higher risk activities.  Some Board members have recanted their stance
on insurance since that time.  There is a great deal of misunderstanding
about the Club's insurance.  For instance, it does not cover members,
only trip leader liability starting at a trailhead, on odd blue-moon
months during the Age of Aquarius.  Details still forth coming, you
have to press them on a case by case basis.
The Club is not necessarily in favor of tort reform, because the Club is
actively using the legal system for its own means (another reason why it
opposed term-limits for politicians).  And it sees its suits as
investments of time and resources (sort of like old Fortran).

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing