From: mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Are we an experiment ?
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:00:18 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


	Anyway, having dragged you through all this,and you having
	actually read it, is it not possible that we are the galactic
	version of the Simpsons !?  We sure fit the bill : Very
	average, small planet with declining civilisation contains
	puny, destructive race who think they are alone.  Hobbies :
	destroying their own planet, and/or destroying each other
        love eradicating animal species etc.

	We must be the funniest thing this side of Alpha Centrauri !

... since we (or at least I) have no experience with civilizations on
other planets, I cannot really judge whether our planet is "average".

   However, I do have problems with the "declining civilization"
comments.  Declining in what way?  By at least some measures, this
isn't so.  For instance, in energy production/consumption (whatever
you may think of that), the global civilization is growing steadily.
Use of non-native (i.e. sweat of the brow) energy sources allows more
food to be grown, more education to occur, etc.  More people are alive
today than ever before (to a certain extent, a sign that there is more
food.)  The very act of city-building requires enough "free labor"
(that is, people not out growing or hunting food) to do so.  Perhaps
you should state your measurements of "civilization".

   Anyway, I would suspect that given the average life-span of humans,
an "observer race" would be amazed, and not disgusted or even
condescendingly amused, at the progress human-kind has made.  From the
pony express to mach 3 aircraft (and television, and telephones,
and...) in only 100 years (3 generations)?  From electric lights to
landing on the moon in only 100 years?  From the ships that require
sails (or oars) to move to the computer you're reading this on now in
less than 200?  Pretty amazing, really.

   Human-kind's aggressive streak (which is pretty wide, we'll all
agree) is part of the cause of this remarkable growth.  Competition
amongst nations, corporations, and individuals drives everyone to
achieve more, to do more.  Is this bad?  Well, maybe.  But
civilization of any sort implies the ability to use force to protect
one's own group, and grow as required, to prosper, to survive.  (New
elements of a civilization, for instance the ability to travel to
other star systems cannot merely be wished into existance.)

   As for the rich helping the poor, it is often more complex than
just the rich giving the poor stuff.  For instance, currently in
Somalia, food and medical shipments are often stolen by Somalis
themselves (that is, criminals within Somalia) before it can reach the
people it is intended for.  Whose fault is that?  The rich countries?
Why?  The starving Somalis?  Why?  What should the rich countries do -
impose "order" by force (by imposing a military/political solution)?
Why?  If, as some say, the Japanese are making cars that are turning
rich (relatively) people in the US (workers in Detroit) into poor
people, is that rich vs. rich and should be ignored?  The individuals
involved would not agree...  If population growth (for whatever
reason) is partial cause for starvation in a poor country, who needs
to change - the rich, by giving more, or the poor, by having fewer
children?  How do you convince the poor farmer, who needs many sons to
tend his land in his old age that he shouldn't have them?  How do you
convince the "rich" that they have to give away stuff no matter how
many people they have to subsidize?  Its thorny, to be sure, and not
really solvable easily.


   If you're talking spirituality, spiritual growth can only really
come when you know where your next meal is coming from.  Human-kind is
progressing, I think -- certainly we do not live in a Nirvana, but we
are going somewhere, and in my opinion it will be a better place.  If
one looks at a longer trend than, say, the last 12 years (which has
seen amazing progress as well), one might come to different
conclusions than you do; but certainly if aliens are watching us,
I suspect they're more likely to take the "long view".



Charles