From: dougmc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Doug McLaren)
Newsgroups: alt.irc
Subject: Re: yes or no? (bot deopping)
Date: 13 Dec 92 01:09:08 GMT
Organization: Doug's House of Disco

In article <1g5lmrINNh0k@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> gjm5@po.CWRU.Edu (Lord Maximilien of Myragorthia) writes:

>Actually the problem is even worse than that.  You don't need to have two
>bots attacking each other to see this server-disalignment effect.  If you
>have a bot with a command like this:
>
>     /on mode "* -o MyOwner" kick TheirNick
>
>and someone on a far-off server executes some sort of nuke command that
>deops everyone on the channel one at a time (a poor way to write one, but
>easier to do in IRC script so often employed anyway), the bot will in fact
>respond, and havoc can result.  Consider what happens if the mass deoper's
...
{ we get the idea }


This is an old problem, one that came to fore with the advent of the 2.7
servers and the *** Hack: message.  The problem was still there before this,
but wasn't advertised to everybody and their dog.

Personally, I think it's time for the *** Hack: message to go the way of the
numbered channels ...

But it doesn't take a stupid bot that protects his owner to cause this.  I
see it alot w/ the mass kick/deop protection scripts I've written (which, btw,
I give out to anybody who wants them ...)  Baasically, if somebody sends X
kicks or deops in a row (X = usually 3 to 5) you kick them.  The mass kicker
sometimes ends up being the only op on his server, and not even on the channel
on the rest of the net.  (Of course, they generate hack messages like mad, and
some self-rightous IRCop tends to kill them ... :)

That is a problem.  Personally, I think it's better than letting them SUCCEED
in their mass deop, so I continue to give out my mass deop/kick protection
scripts, and suggest that people add it to their .ircrc files and their bots.

Having your bot kick anybody who deops or kicks you is an idea which has 
become old.  If anybody pays attention, they will notice that my bots do NOT
protect me or anybody else in this manner.  They DO include the mass kick
protection, with X set to 5, which is generally discriminating enough to not
kick anybody who really doesn't need it.  Yes, it does tend to cause hack
messages (usually in the mass deopper) but I think that's better then letting
them succeed.

A solution?  I see a few possible ones:

   1) One central server handles modes.   (Will never work.  Not only would
      it be slow, but how would people even  choose WHO gets to run this
      server, and what if it goes down ...)
   2) Do away with the *** Hack message.  This is a good idea IMHO, whos
      time has come.  It won't fix the problem, but will make it MUCH less
      annoying ...
   3) Do away with mode changes.  Personally, I think this is the best
      solution, but it's really up to the people who do the coding ...
      A slightly less drastic solution would be to do away with the 'o' and the
      'b' modes (and 'm' would have to go too ...)  Then anybody on the channel
      would be considered 'opped'.
      Kick would seem to be a good thing to get rid of too.  But it serves it's
      purpose too.

My proposal:

   No bans.  No opping people.  +i, s, t, n, p all still in effect, able to
   be changed by anybody on the channel.
   Anybody on the channel can 'kick', but all the kick will do is do a
   server-level ignore on that person.  So I kick you, and it keeps ME
   and only ME from seeing you.  Perhaps if 1/2 or more of the people on
   the channel kick a single person it ought to become 'real' ...
      
   As far as IRCops go: No '*' ... let it be silent/invisible.  That '*' was
   supposed to be there so people would know who to ask for help, but that
   purpose is way out of date, because, as a group, IRCops aren't generally
   much more help than the other lusers.
   Leave /kill in, as it DOES have it's uses.  But make it kill yourself
   too, so people will only use it when it's really needed.  Also, add a
   K-line for 60 seconds on anybody killed, both the killer and the kilee.
   This will make it a bit more inconvienient to kill and be killed.

These changes would do several things:  
   1) reduce the bandwidth used by IRC.  (fewer mode changes ...)
   2) Reduce the need/desire for bots (sure, they could have a few uses,
      but these uses would be greatly reduced.)
   3) Reduce the number of kills.
   4) Reduce the 'power' of the IRCop, but still retain the /kill command.
      This would also greatly reduce people's desire to start up their own
      server just so they could /kill and so they could have that nifty
      little '*' next to their name.

I don't promise that these ideas are perfect, or foolproof, or a panacea for
IRC.  But they strike me as something to consider ...

-- 
----------------------- \  Zippy says:
Doug McLaren,            \  I'm having an EMOTIONAL OUTBURST!! But, uh, WHY is
DemoN on IRC              \  there a WAFFLE in my PAJAMA POCKET??
dougmc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  \
-------------------------- /
Newsgroups: alt.irc