HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lkc@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Lee Casuto)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Fins... (was Re: Shoulder Problems)
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:13:48 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

Hi John,

> hmm.  maybe I need to get ME some of those things.  :-)

They sure make the kick a lot less boring.

> 
> on a related note, i'd like feedback on hand paddles.  i've not had the
> opportunity to try them out, but a young collegiate swimmer that i was
> pacing last week had a pair of them, and he remarked at the upper body
> workout that he got from them.  

My preference is the Hind paddles.  I've met a few swimmers who think they
ruin your stroke, but in my case, they let me know if I'm finishing
my pull through.  Ya see, if I don't, the suckers come off.  They have
a bend in them at about the wrist so if you take your hand out too 
early, it comes off.  During the workout, I feel the effect in both
my triceps and lats.  I have had a problem of relying on them too much
since it seems that I can workout faster with them.  I have to control 
myself to limit their use to no more than 800 yards and usually about 600 
yds per workout (~4500 yds).

Good luck.

l\

> 
> cheers,
> -- 
> John Salmi		<jsalmi@uswest.com>		(303) 595-2863
> 
> Last night, as I lay awake in bed looking at the stars, I asked myself:
>                      Where the heck is my roof?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: James Peters <peters@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Originator: peters@mikey.convex.com
Reply-To: peters@convex.COM (James Peters)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 22:29:41 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1839c9INNfs2@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:
>peters@convex.COM (James Peters) writes:
>> i consider outlawing masters open water
>> drafting a minor crusade of mine.
>
>Why?  Like drafting in cycling, it just makes everything a bit more
>complicated.  But as long as everybody plays by the same rules, why
>not?  I also doubt that the results would change significantly in
>most races if drafting were abolished.

i don't think masters open water will ever abolish drafting for it 
could never be enforced. i have been reading rec.sport.triathlon and
there have been  considerable problems enforcing the no draft rule
during the cycling leg at more then one event in the very recent past.
you can't honestly say you enjoy a wheel-hugger, or wake-sucker? 

>On the subject of keeping course: unless you are very fast, you can
>usually easily take an average reading of all the bodies in front
>of you and just go for it.  You only have to check now and then to
>make sure the lemmings aren't following the wrong course entirely!

best bet for navigating is to find fixed points on land which are easily
spotted from the water. before the swim attempt to get a perspective of
how the course will appear from the water and locate some large landmarks ie
a moored ship, a bell tower, a lighthouse.  anything that is less than
3m off the water won't be visible from the water. following a group of
swimmers or a support boat are also good ideas.

regards,
james, peters@convex.com
From: rob@chili.hnrc.tufts.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: water polo in boston ?
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:34:20 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University


Are there any places near Boston for a person wanting to learn how to play
water polo ?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: redmondd@unix1.tcd.ie (Judge Raz)
Subject: Re: Covert Bailey: Kook or Quack?
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:08:50 GMT

In <183a1jINNfvr@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:

> He also claims you can't sweat in the water.

You do indeed sweat in water, you just don't notice it because you're already
wet. It is recommended that you drink a pint of water for every hour hard
swimming.

Judge Raz

redmondd@unix1.tcd.ie  |    ~~~    |  You got my body now you want my soul 
Donncha Redmond        |    o-o    |  Now can't have none of that 
National Swim Team     |     ^     |  Tell her whatta say Mace 
Ireland		       |    `-'    |  Say no go		-- De La Soul
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tims@cci632.cci.com (Tim Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Reply-To: tims@cci.com (Tim Sullivan)
Organization: Computer Consoles, Inc.  Rochester, NY
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:49:51 GMT


tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica) wrote this about Open water swimming - strategy:
 [deleted text]
>
>As an aside, the swim is the only part of the triathlon where you can draft.
>
	In actuality, the bike is the only portion of a triathlon where you
	can not draft, but the conditions are seldom right to get any benifit
	from drafting during the run.  The conditions I speak of are running
	into a fairly stiff wind.

>So the real question is, is open water swimming a race or a time trial? I say
>it's a race, and strategy is part of the game.
>
>If we decide it's a time trial then we have an incredible problem with enforce-
>ment. It may be a nice idea, but I doubt it will work. In fact, one wonders whyu
>triathlons aren't treated as races (would sure help us swimmers, who could get
>out early and draft off the fast bikers :-):-):-)).
>

	I am afraid that I miss the distinction between a time trial and a race.
	I'm sure we agree that a time trial is a type of race.  There is
	a degree of strategy that goes along with a time trial type event, as
	long as all of your competitors started together, but certainly less 
	than in an event that allows drafting.  If the event consists of
	wave or stagared individual starts, then it becomes just an all
	out effort.  If the event is mass start, then if you may not draft,
	then at least you can pace off of others, and look for opportunities
	to jump.

	Enforcement of a no draft rule in open water swimming does seem 
	difficult to me.  At least if people aren't conciencious and make an
	effort to keep the race clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan
tims@cci.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: James Peters <peters@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Originator: peters@mikey.convex.com
Reply-To: peters@convex.COM (James Peters)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1992 22:38:19 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Sep1.212650.23116@leland.Stanford.EDU> tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica) writes:
>In article <95117@bu.edu> kuchar@buast7.bu.edu (Tom Kuchar) writes:
>
>Well I guess I'm an "expert" having won a few age groups races 'round these
>parts. In my opinion there are three key parts to the races.(1) In the be-
>ginning you need to get out of the pack. If you can, the best thing to do is
>to sprint hard for ~500 yds (I'm assuming a two mile race - pretty standard
>length in Northen Cal). (2) In the middle of the race, settle down to a pace
>that's right at your aerobic threshold - the pace you can hold for 2 miles
>without dying!
>
>If possible get a good draft off of someone who's a little bit faster than
>you. This is perfectly legal and even Paul Asmuth does it.

as it has already been debated, drafting during masters and uss <10k open
water events is legal. the only reason it is legal for masters is that making
it illegal would be unenforceable. this i learned from a member of the masters
open water committee craig tribuzi. i consider outlawing masters open water
drafting a minor crusade of mine. you will not be seeing a debate at this
years masters national convention but i bet $10 next year will be a different
story.  til then a kick in the head remedies this drafting problem ;).

>(3) Be prepared to have a kick for the last 500 yds. The guy in front of you
>will want to lose you, and the guy drafting off you plans to pass you!

real men don't wear rubber nor draft,
james, peters@convex.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.triathlon
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming

>
>You haven't got a clue - learn to swim fast before you start to
>prosteltize.
>
>tom monica
>
>stanford masters coach
>usms all american 1990,1991
>
>`:w
>

***********************************************************************
To set the context of this open letter...

The above was sent to me in response to my response
to the posting "Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves" posted 8/22/92.

This is my response to him.

                               -lef
***********************************************************************



Dear Mr. stanford masters coach -- usms all american 1990,1991


Is this an example of your coaching style?  Do you run from lane to
lane and rudely inform swimmers that they don't have a clue?

I find that people that have to display their credentials to develop
credibility "don't have a clue".

What is wrong with my approach?  If you're such a good coach, correct
me.  I've never really liked coaches that stand there on the pool deck
and insult me.  I've never really learned anything from them.

Incidently, the word is proselytize.  And you have used the word
incorrectly.  I was merely stating my opinion (as I said in the first
two words of my response).  No one else has responded to this gentleman's
inquiry.  Not even you, the all knowing usms all american 1990,1991 -
stanford master's coach.

Do you send this kind of rude mail to all the respondants that you feel
are misguided?  Are you this notes group's defender of technical
accuracy?  If so why don't you publish your remarks where the whole
world can see and maybe learn a little.  I would have been open to 
hearing what you had to say.  I've always liked the swim toys. 
They make you go faster and build strength.  But one by one, they
have all hurt me to where now I'm not even in the water anymore.  
I would have loved for someone with your credentials to tell me why
it's worth it to use these toys.  They're so much fun.

Well, inadvertently, you have taught me something.  This notes group
isn't what I thought.  I was excited when I found it too.  I had all
but given up hope that there would ever be a notes group where a swimmer
like me could read what other swimmers had to say about various
subjects.  And maybe skilled swimmers like you would teach me something. 
But instead, after my first contribution to a discussion, I get rubbish
like the above through the mail.  Clearly this notes group is not a 
good natured forum for a free exchange of ideas as I had thought.

At some point, all the "wanna be's" like me are gonna get the same
idea and this notes group will wither.  And it will not be because of 
the contributors.  It will be because of people like you that don't
contribute but take pot shots at those who do through the mail.

Please don't bother me with anymore of your mailings.  I won't be 
making anymore contributions to this notes group for quite some time.
Because the one thing that the stanford masters coach, usms all 
american 1990,1991 taught me was that I'm gonna have "to swim faster
before you start to prosteltize (sic)".  I have a lot of work to do.

Thank you for your help,

Larry Fogelquist
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Covert Bailey: Kook or Quack?
Date: 4 Sep 1992 10:48:56 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <183a1jINNfvr@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:

>I saw his lecture on the tube and he added a few conditions to the
>above.  He was speaking to the general population that is already
>overweight.  He claims that you need to use big muscles (essentially
>the quads and other leg muscles) to lose fat quickly (not weight!).

If one is already overweight, one exposes oneself to lots of injuries if
starts running, etc.  If one does weights, then one would not loose weight
either.  There are many exercises done in the water (like water-walking) which
can avoid injuries, and help people get started on exercising without
exposing their joints.

As for not sweating, I believe that he's got to get out there and do some
good swimming.  I always get dehidrated after a workout, and most of it is
a result of sweating.

Sasha Bucur


Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: caw@cs.brown.edu (Christopher A. Wood)
Subject: Pools in Boston area
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:13:55 GMT


Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: jasjit@cc.gatech.edu (Jasjit Singh)
Subject: How to avoid cramps?
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:13:19 GMT

While swimming, I occasionally get cramps in my feet, causing me to quit
for the day. They are nothing serious, and go away in a matter of minutes.
Could someone tell me what causes cramps, and how can one prevent them?
Thanks a lot,
-Jasjit
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jasjit Singh              jasjit@cc.gatech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.misc
From: swimmer@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Jennifer Bouck)
Subject: Re: US Nationals
Organization: Computer and Technologies Theme Program, NCSU, Raleigh
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:51:14 GMT

In article <redmondd.714936322@unix1.tcd.ie> redmondd@unix1.tcd.ie (Judge Raz) writes:
>Hi,
>Does anyone have results of the US National Swimming Champs that they'd
>mail me? I caught 1 or 2 results in the papers here but missed most.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Judge Raz
>

Could you please post them for all of us to see?

=========================================================================
|	           ,_             				       	|
|	      ,______\@          swimmer@catt.ncsu.edu		    	|
|	  ^^^^,__'    \^^^      				       	|
From: fog@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Larry Fogelquist)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:07:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming

My opinion of most of these toys is that they don't do you any good at all...

Fins are useless!  They only make you miserable when you take them off and    
are reminded of how much work it is to go slower without them.  The only
thing that I use them for is working on my belly muscles for butterfly.  I 
also used them as a training aid when I was learning butterfly but I don't   
think they helped much.  Another thing that I'm toying with is using them
to make me go faster through the water so then I can practice pulling 
against water that is moving fast.  I don't know about that one yet.

I'm not sure about pull bouys.  I can't really see any purpose to them. 
My 100 time is about 5 seconds faster while wearing one.  That can't be 
good.  Probably means that I should work on my kick.  I usually put one
on if I'm out of shape or the workout is a little over my head.

Paddles are probably the only aid that one can actually achieve some   
benefit by using.  However, one should never use them for more than say
a quarter of your workout.  I don't use them at all anymore cuz I think
that they're responsible for starting my never ending string of problems
with my shoulder and both elbows.  Before my fall from glory however, I 
was seeing a significant improvement in my sprint times.  They really
helped my arm strength.

Kick boards are ok.  But since kicking isn't really propulsive, they only
help you to kick the same but use less energy i.e. you're not wearing 
yourself out with the kick. 

If I were you, I'd get rid of the swim toys.  They're only crutches.  The 
best ways to get faster is to actually swim in a workout lane.  Find one 
that you can keep up with but is still a bit of a reach.  Swim with them.
And swim hard.  People that swim to relax or get out of the pool and aren't 
completely hammered, are not improving their speed.  

Also there are three things that I think about when I'm swimming (besides
wondering if I'm gonna survive the workout).  That is technique, technique
and technique.  It sounds kinda corney but it works for me.  A friend told
me that a long time ago.  It was good advice.

I know that I've gotten carried away here.  But this advice comes 
from one who has been 'hooked' on swim toys in the past.  The misery of
putting them away after getting used to how fast and effortlessly you can
motor with them on, is just not worth it.

Good luck,

Lar!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica)
Subject: Re: Open water swimming - strategy
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 22:52:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.224602.18845@leland.Stanford.EDU> tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica) writes:
>In article <183emlINNac3@agate.berkeley.edu> jwd@redwood.ced.berkeley.edu (John Wilbrand Dahlgren) writes:
>>Jpeters@convex.COM (James Peters) writes:
>>        "real men don't wear rubber nor draft"
>>
>>I don't mean to start a flame war, but..
>>drafting has been part of competitive swimming probably since
>>its inception. For examples look at the lane positioning in
>>any pool race. Drafting is also a fine tradition in bicycling
>>and sailing, (not to mention many other sports) It is part of
>>the strategy involved in a sport, just like pacing oneself or
>>planning a breakaway. Without interaction with the other
>>competitors one might as well compete on a treadmill.
>>
>>Jack Dahlgren
>>jwd@ced.berkeley.edu
>
>Well on the one hand drafting has been around and some sports have evolved to
>include it as a strategy, while others (such as triathalons and duathalons) that
>Hey Julie, what's your opinion (being the rules maven that you are)?
>


BTW, if you rember the Seol Olympics, the Austrailian who won the 100, said he
beat Biondi by getting in his draft for most of the race!


(so I can't spell Korean city names, big deal)


-- 
Porpise: run, bike, swim, make cookies


"long distance runner, what you holding out for?"
From: bucur@pollux.usc.edu (alexander bucur)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Covert Bailey: Kook or Quack?
Date: 4 Sep 1992 10:43:12 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1206@tekgen.bv.tek.com> brucec@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Bruce Cheney) writes:

>Have any of you read Covert Bailey's Fit or Fat
>books?  As a swimming advocate, these books
>really hack me off.

He's statement about the whales is quite dumb.  I mean unless you are a
Cheetah in the animal world you are not fit?  This would be an extension
to his reasoning.  I guess let him go out there and tell to a tiger face 
to face that it is not fit. Or even to a gorilla.

Besides that, I do not believe that loosing fat is the most important issue
when one goes out to exercise.  I believe one has to think about feeling
one's body tight and trim, and that is all.  Some of the runners do not
appeal to me at all when it comes down to their appearance.

My humble opinion, Sasha Bucur



Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: pdsmith.mitre.org (Pat Smith)
Subject: Re: Contacts?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:55:25 GMT

In article <1304@esl.ESL.COM>, jsd@esl.com (Jeff Dalton) writes:
> 
> In article <136820009@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, m_bell@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mark Bell) writes:
> > 
> > Do any of you wear contact lenses while you swim?  If so, what type of goggles
> > do you use?
> 
> I just got contacts (soft) a year or two ago I've been using the same
> goggles (Hind) for 10+ years.  Swimming is one of the safer activities
> I do with contacts in.  When watching TV I can stick my fingers in my
> eyes - not so with goggles on (but then everyone's green;-)
> 
> --
> Jeff Dalton                    If a train station is where a train stops,
> jsd@esl.com                            what does that make a workstation?
> ESL Inc., S'vale CA                             
> 
> 
I used to swim with contacts till I got prescription goggles.  My inlaws are 
living in Hong Kong and you can buy these goggles quite easily there - no
script required.  The goggles are decent quality - nothing super professional
but I am a recreational swimmer.  I think these goggles were kind of 
expensive however.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: jgtsai@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jane Tsai)
Subject: US nationals results?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 00:35:42 GMT


Could someone please post or e-mail me the results of the
US Nationals. I haven't seen or heard any of it.

Thanks...


+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Jane Tsai		         |You know that old home, it's still standing|
+--------------------------------+As I walk up, to the landing		     |
| s3004638@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au |And ther to meet me, is no-one	     |
| jgtsai@nyx.cs.du.edu           |Cuz I never lived there		     |
|				 |  -Lime Green Slime (Dik Van Dikes)	     |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
From: sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: How to avoid cramps?
Date: 26 Aug 1992 16:44:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug25.231319.4768@cc.gatech.edu> jasjit@cc.gatech.edu (Jasjit Singh) writes:
#>While swimming, I occasionally get cramps in my feet, causing me to quit
#>for the day. They are nothing serious, and go away in a matter of minutes.
#>Could someone tell me what causes cramps, and how can one prevent them?
#>Thanks a lot,
#>-Jasjit
#>---------------------------------------------------------------
#>Jasjit Singh              jasjit@cc.gatech.edu

My understanding of cramps is that they are caused by a buildup
of waste products in the muscle. Foot cramps are pretty common
when you are not in great condition and are building yourself
up. Personally, I usually swim through them. If you get an
unusually severe cramp, getting out of the water and pulling
the toes toward the knee usually relieves the cramp. I
rarely get such cramps once I have passed a sort of plateau
earlier in conditioning, though I once had a hand cramp in
a 2-mile swim in a fairly cold lake. So, in summary, improving
your condition and strength should prevent cramps. Warmth and
proper stretching should provide immediate relief. A cramp is
more likely in very cold water.

Steve Goldfield
From: lkc@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Lee Casuto)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 22:45:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Olympic Questions
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming

In rec.sport.swimming, nagordon@amherst.edu writes:
> Overall, the
> US performance has to be considered their best performance in relation to the
> Trials since the 84 games.
> nate

Wow, that's a lot of history.  Thanks for the information and background.
So it would appear that moving the trials was the correct action to take.

l\
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: del@cs.brown.edu
Subject: Boston Area Pool
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:47:01 GMT

Hi,
 
I'm looking for a pool in the Boston area to do some lap swimming
before or after work.  I've looked at a couple of health clubs
but the only ones that have a suitable pool are pretty expensive.
I'm also wondering if there are any masters groups in the area
who train together.  I was a competitive swimmer in college and
now that I've been out for a couple of years, I think I'd like
to get into it again to some extent.
 
If anyone has any information, please email me since I don't have
access to this newsgroup.  My address is cawood@bruno.Prime.COM . 
 
Thanks, 
Chris 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming,rec.sport.triathlon