HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples)
Subject: Re: HELP: Cannot install OS/2 - I get stumped after the HD Prep!
Reply-To: sip1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Dept. of Econ., Univ. of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:47:08 GMT

First off, don't crosspost (ever) unless you have a darn good reason
to.  The newsgroup comp.os.os2 no longer exists and
comp.os.os2.advocacy is not for resolving problems with the operating
system itself.

In article <1992Jul21.035620.10107@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> sundaram@cps.msu.edu (Divya Sundaram) writes:
>I am a new OS/2 2.0 user and have serious problems w/ the OS. It seems to be 
>powerful but honestly IBM has done an extremely shoddy job on the installation 
>procedure and on the documents which are confusing to say the very least. What a
>shoddy piece of work! I had high hopes for OS/2 2.0 -heard greta things about 
>it. But with the installation intructions and procedure so crappy, I am not 
>surprised that OS/2 has not won over too many people from Windoze. At least
>windoze is easy to install and configure etc.Sheesh!

When you run into a problem it suddenly becomes a "shoddy product."
This varies with both products -- Windows has its share of troubles,
and so does OS/2.

>My problem is that I have the 5.25" version of the OS installation. Once I get 
>done with the Hard Disk prep and finish with disk #5 in the set, the install 
>program tells me it is time for the system configuration part of the install.
>OK, it says take out the disk from the a: drive and press enter. I do this
>as requested -and the machine simply sits there! I cannot go any further. I 
>doubt the problem is with my motherboard - since others with a similar setup
>have been able to install the OS on their system - with difficulty - but they 
>at least got there. Is there a (or any patches I should know about?

If that isn't a typo (Disk #5), then you have your CMOS setup
parameters set incorrectly.  In the 5.25 inch set it should go up to
Disk #6 in the initial install phase.  If it only goes up to Disk #5
it thinks your floppies are 3.5 inch instead of 5.25 inch.  Check your
CMOS setup parameters and make sure your floppy disk drives are
identified correctly.

-- 
Get the OS/2 FREQ. ASKED QUESTIONS LIST | Timothy F. Sipples
from 128.123.35.151, anonymous ftp,     | Internet: sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu
directory pub/os2/all/faq, or from      | Dept. of Econ., U. Chicago, 60637
LISTSERV@BLEKUL11.BITNET (send "HELP"). | Tsongas > Perot > Clinton.  Yay.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: adamsm@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Going from Win 3.1 to OS/2, worth it???
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:25:45 GMT

I am currently a Windows 3.1 user and find myself drawn to the "completeness"
of OS/2.  I plan to "upgrade" to OS/2 later this month but am a bit leery about
its DOS compatibility as I was hundreds of megs of DOS files but little or no
OS/2 native applications, just how good is the DOS emulation, could I get away
using my DOS programs reliably until I can afford new applications?  I
currently have a 386/40 with 4m ram and a 130m drive.  I'm hoping this will
prove to be an acceptable starting base as I don't forsee using any major power
applications in the beginning.  Am I kidding myself about these stats, or will
this system not cut it in the OS/2 world?  I would appreciate any comments as
to your opinion on OS\2, preferably from previous DOS/WINDOWS users.  I thank
you in advance for your comments regarding this issue...

                                    -- Michael Adams (Ingres Programmer)     
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: tedc@ee.ubc.ca (ted chen)
Subject: Re: Does 800x600x256 on the VGA part of a Graphics Ultra 
Organization: University of BC, Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:06:10 GMT

In article <712297745snx@ananke.stgt.sub.org> ak@ananke.stgt.sub.org (Andreas Kaiser) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul26.200231.12787@ee.ubc.ca> tedc@ee.ubc.ca writes:
>
>  > I haven't been able to get the Graphics Ultra into 800x600x256 mode using
>  > the VGA portion of the card, in DOS full screen.  It doesn't even work if
>  > if I boot from a DOS 5.0 floppy and try going into that mode (VPIC).  Wonder
>  > what's happening?
>
>It doesn't work because the code which should switch to this mode got
>dropped off the BIOS. ATI had to take a close look into their Wonder
>BIOS and had to drop some less important parts of it to get enough ROM
>space for the 8514 code. Maybe the 800x600x256 mode was too near to the
>1024x768x256 mode and accidentally fell into the same trashcan.
>
>There are other things which got dropped: e.g. BIOS graphics in SVGA
>modes other then 800x600x16 (which is trivial). You'll see this effect
>when using GIF viewers, since this is perhaps the only kind of software
>where BIOS graphics are used sometimes.
>
>:::::::::::::::::::: subnet:  ak@ananke.stgt.sub.org
>:: Andreas Kaiser :: fidonet: 2:241/7220.9
>::::::::::::::::::::

The 800x600x256 mode DOES work, but NOT at 72 Hz refresh.  You must drop down
to 70 Hz for it to work.  Thanks to the fellow who mentioned this fix.

Ted


Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: color of shadow icon text
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 05:44:04 GMT

I've chosen a desktop background color that makes the icon text for
shadows difficult to read.  I can easily change the color of icon
text, but haven't found how to change the color of shadow icon text.
Is it possible?  I've tried all of the items with "shadow" in the name
in the Scheme Palette, but to no avail.  Perhaps it goes by some more
obscure name?
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: amadeus@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Axel Richrath)
Subject: Re: COM3, COM4
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Distribution: fb20
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:36:31 GMT

amadeus@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Axel Richrath) writes:

>hello!
>
>i have tried to install additional COM3 and COM4. 

hrmph... 2 days later i switched on the machine and since then it worked
properly - who buildt this delay machanism into OS/2??? ;)

axel
From: gwebster@ugly.UVic.CA (This space for rent)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: POV-Ray and OS/2
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:14:29 GMT
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada

In article <15298.1088.uupcb@satalink.com> bert.tyler@satalink.com (Bert Tyler) writes:
>Folks, Drew Wells jusat sent me a message via Compuserve Email
>mentioning that Bill Pulver has taken on the task of supporting
>POV-Ray under OS/2 using IBM's OS/2 compiler.  Bill is a well-known
>developer on the Compuserve circuit, is a genuine OS/2 fanatic, and
>has posted many a message in various Compuserve forums giving out
>assistance to those who need it.
>

Does this mean we will see an FTP'able OS/2 version soon? Seeing as I have
not been able to get the DOS version to work under OS/2 (without a
co-processor), this may be the only hope. Besides, who could pass up a 32 bit
version? ;-)



-- 
________________________________________________________________________
| Gord Webster           | Be cool or be cast out - Rush               |
| University of Victoria | OS/2, it's curtains for Windows             |
| Victoria, B.C., Canada | Oxygen is for losers - Red Dwarf            |
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: roger@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: PM Terminal full-screen?
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:42:43 GMT

In article <Jul27.092656.55043@aixssc.ibm.co.uk>, stirling@hursley.ibm.com writes:
> In <1992Jul24.165110.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>, roger@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>>
>>        Is there anyway to run PM Terminal full-screen?
> 
> PM Terminal is a PM program, it has no concept of windowed vs fullscreen.  The 
> best you can do is to run with it maximised.
> 
	When I maximise the window it occupies the full screen width, but only
about 60% of the screen height. Thus the text is squashed vertically, making
it difficult to read. What do I have to do so that when maximised, the window
occupies the whole screen??

Roger C. Green,	Faculty of Medicine                      Phone: (709)737-6884
Memorial University , St. John's, Newfoundland.          FAX  : (709)737-7010
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: ekl@fics.uucp
Subject: Re: Stupid (i.e. neat) CMD.EXE tricks
Organization: Kvam data as
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 14:53:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.070605.2015@ultb.isc.rit.edu> djs6015@ultb.isc.rit.edu (Don Smith) writes:
>In article <keOUree00Vp94=yFIn@andrew.cmu.edu> sl31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen M. Lacy) writes:
>>    Point two: When working with windowed command shells, you can neatly 
>>    scroll around the window without using the scroll bars, what you do is 
>>    drag the mouse as if you're selecting something, then move the mouse 
>>    outsize of the window, and it will scroll in that direction.  For example,
>>    I just compiled my program that has lots of errors, and I'm using a 102
>>    line windowed command shell.  To see the stuff that's already scrolled
>>    off the top of the window, I press the mouse button and hold it (inside
>>    the window) and then drag, moving the poiner ABOVE the border of the
>>    window, and it scrolls up!  NEAT!   Scrollbars are a thing of the past!?
>
>
>Huh? I tried this in my windowed CMD.EXE and 4OS2.EXE sessions and it
>doesn't work in either. Can anybody verify this?
>-- 
>   | Don Smith     (yahweh)      |  Its a Satanic drug thing....     |
>   |djs6015@ultb.isc.rit.edu     |    ....you wouldn't understand.   |
>   |djs6015@ritvax.isc.rit.edu   |                                   |
>   =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

hereby verified!

Eirik
ekl@fics.uucp
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Bad news for POV and
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:24:49 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

[Rearranged slightly to make my original point clearer...]

In article <15207.1088.uupcb@satalink.com> bert.tyler@satalink.com (Bert Tyler) writes:
>Because someone who refuses to join them on Compuserve *can't* interact
>with them as easily as anyone else.

OK, I'll buy that in light of your explanation.

>[...] no OS/2
>developers had offered to join the POV team on the terms that everyone
>*else* on the team joined in.)

Even if I were interested in raytracing, I would not join his team under those
conditions: I refuse to do business with CI$. There _are_ other reasons
besides economy not to join CI$, you know.

>>The POV crew is developing
>>an outstanding piece of software over there, and they would love
>>to have an OS/2 member on their team.
>JM>When you're running a volunteer organization, you don't run off
>JM>volunteers and then complain that you can't get any.
>But Drew wasn't complaining.

The comment quoted above sounds like it to me. If I misinterpreted it, sorry.

>Hw *will* be writing a response to all this that he wants me to post,
>but he says he needs to calm down first.  Today would not be a good
>day to attempt to convince Drew of the virtues of OS/2, I'm afraid.

I'm sorry that he feels that way. OS/2 is not a magic elixir that turns anyone
who drinks it into a flaming copyright violator, and associating the two is
highly unfair. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to argue against
what they see as an unreasonable restriction, especially one that requires
them to do business with a company they may not wish to do business with for
whatever reason. If Drew wishes to generalize from Internet users, that's one
thing; from OS/2 users is quite another story.

I'm not trying to get Drew mad at me, at Internet users, at OS/2 users, or at
anyone else. I will probably never install POV on my computer. (Especially if
I have to get it from CI$!) That's not because I dislike Drew, but rather
because his program has little value to me. I'm merely responding to an
attitude that I see is damaging to the user community in general.

(BTW, if you'd like to forward my comments to Drew, I'd be happy to discuss
them with him.)
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
From: goat@cats.ucsc.edu (The Black Watch)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Waiting for OS/2
Date: 30 Jul 1992 21:40:26 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


	I ordered the OS/2 2.0 beta kit last year, and was happy to find that
this made me eligible for a free upgrade to GA. The pre-signed upgrade form 
arrived in May (long wait #1), and I immediately sent it back in.
	I am still waiting for my copy of OS/2! Am I the only one? This is 
getting quite tedious. Please, netters, if you can tell me who to call (an
individual, perhaps) or what to do, or to just sit on my thumbs and wait, please
email me. I am getting pretty tired of waiting...
	thanks,
	goat


Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: ednstras@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Michael Strasser)
Subject: Re: BACKUP's and the Desktop
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:38:47 GMT

cvadrtbc@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Srikanth Viswanathan) writes:

>In article <92202.102131BRYAN@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>, Jerry Bryan <BRYAN@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> writes...
>>between the INI files and desktop directories.  Remember that INI files
>>are hard to backup with standard facilities such as BACKUP and COPY because
>>they are always open.  You have to run the backup out of CONFIG.SYS
>>before they are opened, which in turn means you have to boot to back them
>>up.  I hate to boot when it really is not necessary.  The other concern

>You really don't have to.  Someone on Fidonet a long time ago, posted
>this very useful tip for backuping INI files:

>CALL=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\*.INI C:\BACKUP\*.INI

This method is also described in the third redbook (on PM and WPS).  The
method given there has

	RUN=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\OS*.INI C:\OS2\INSTALL\

(Can some please explain the difference between CALL and RUN in CONFIG.SYS?).
Note that this method overrites the "default" versions of OS2.INI and
OS2SYS.INI in the \OS2\INSTALL directory, which are put there by the install
process and used by the ALT-F1 during boot restore process.

BUT BE CAREFUL: If you only have the line in CONFIG.SYS as above and you
corrupt your INI file(s) without knowing it, next time you re-boot you will
overwrite your previously OK file(s) with the new, corrupted one!

My preferred solution to this is to have multiple generations of INI
backups, all duplicated in CONFIG.SYS (note that the redbook solution is to
make copies of the backups in the \OS2\INSTALL directory in STARTUP.CMD):

	RUN=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\INSTALL\OS2*.2 C:\OS2\INSTALL\*.3
	RUN=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\INSTALL\OS2*.1 C:\OS2\INSTALL\*.2
	RUN=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\INSTALL\OS2*.INI C:\OS2\INSTALL\*.1
	RUN=C:\OS2\XCOPY C:\OS2\OS*.INI C:\OS2\INSTALL\

which gives you 3 generations.  If you only reboot once from the hard disk
after corrupting OS2.INI, your backup \OS2\INSTALL\OS2.1 is OK (as are
generations 2 and 3).  You may have disk space limitations, tho'.

To backup the EAs of the desktop directories, EAUTIL is the best option.
This is the method used by the WPSBkup shareware program which is going
around at the moment.  It also (as a PM app) uses the API calls to copy the
current INI file states while they are open (the only way to copy them).

I hope this helps a bit.

-- 
Mike Strasser                       Internet: M.Strasser@edn.gu.edu.au.
Education Division                  Fidonet:  3:640/308.2@fidonet
Griffith University
Brisbane, Australia
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Installing BLKICO fix
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:45:34 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.230357.18005@ee.ubc.ca> tedc@ee.ubc.ca (ted chen) writes:
>1)  Can I delete all the 'fix files' after patching?                     

Which files?  Do you mean the old files that are replaced?  Yes, but
you may want to keep them around in case the patches fail.  If you
mean the distribution files, yes - they are used to replace files in
your /OS2/* directory tree and aren't needed after the patch is applied.

>2)  When I follow the instructions for the BLKICO fix, copying the 2 .DLL
>    files into the \OS2\DLL directory, I get a message saying that the two
>    files are in use by another program.  I cannot copy over the old DLL's
>    as instructed to.  

That's right.  These files are in use by PM and WPS.  Boot an install
floppy, and press [ESC] when asked to (after inserting disk 1).
You'll be at an OS/2 prompt.  You can replace the files from there
(because they aren't being used).  Once you do this, reboot from your
hard drisk.

>3)  What are the major patches that I should be installing?

The OS2KRNL.ZOO patch should be required.  Other patches should only
be instlled if you're having problems.  In the fall, IBM will release
a complete update kit (either download it or pay a nominal
media/handling charge for diskettes) which will contain all the
patches and install them for you (along with other goodies)

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: bbrown@infonode.ingr.com (Bailey Brown)
Subject: Re: Couldn't stick it out...
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:47:36 GMT

dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:

>In article <1992Jul27.212525.26274@infonode.ingr.com> bbrown@infonode.ingr.com (Bailey Brown) writes:
>>
>>Though I agree the multitasking in windows is probably not as good as
>>it is in OS/2 2.0, I have done some amazing things with it, such
>>as run a 500 frame MPEG movie at 15 frames/sec in a 320x240 window while 
>>downloading at 2400 bps.  When I tried this while downloading at
>>10,200 bps, the frame rate dropped to about 10 frames/sec, but my
>>download continued without a hiccup.  I think the slowdown a was
>>due to my 386/33 being overwhelmed.  A 486/33 probably could have
>>kept the frame rate a 15.

>Your MPEG viewer is probably a very well written program, then.
>There's nothing inherent in Windows that will cause a slowdown
>(although DOS boxes cause it serious problems).  If all you have are
>Windows apps, and all disk I/O is to the hard drive, you can get ver
>good speed.  Assuming the Windows apps are well written (MS
>applications are NOT this way!).

The MPEG viewer is a terribly written program.  I practically NEVER
yields.  It takes several tries to get clicks on the "stop" button
to register.  However, it has to be this way because it has alot of
work to do to get 15 frames/sec on an ET4000.  It uses a special 
DLL to access the video directly, bypassing windows.

However, since Windows runs all windows programs as one pre-empted task,
and each dos program as its own pre-empted task, my DOS comm program
was able to keep downloading full tilt while the mpeg movie ran.

I don't follow what you mean by saying dos boxes give windows serious
problems.  As far as I can tell, the only really serious problems windows
has is with accessing floppies.  

Also, for those of you who say that windows can't run dos stuff well
except benchmarks:

Using free jpeg source compiled with Intel CodeBuilder (32-bit DPMI)
doing jpg->gif on a 272x400 color jpeg file:

Plain dos         : 14.61 seconds
Dos under win 3.1 : 14.72 seconds

I want to mention that I am a home/hobbiest user of my PC, and have
not tried any of the acane things that windows is not supposed to be
able to do, such as run two instances of the same comm package at
the same time on two different modems.  Also, I rarely use floppies,
mainly just install applications and do small incremental backups of
data.  If my life revolved around floppies, I'd probalby hate windows
and love OS/2.

------------
Bailey Brown                               "Above all else, confusion reigns."
Intergraph Corporation                                  
bbrown@casca.b11.ingr.com                              Procol Harum
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: eylee@cayley.waterloo.edu (Edmund Lee)
Subject: OS/2 Stacker
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 02:49:20 GMT

Hi, does anyone when stacker will be available for OS/2???

          Is it the third or forth quarter of this year?

				Thanks.  Edmund

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmund Lee				 
Undergraduate Computer Science & Chartered Accounting
eylee@descartes.waterloo.edu

   " Intelligent is inversly proportional to height  "
						- 1990       
   Accountant by day, Programmer by night.                  ;-)
From: kl@isr.harvard.edu (Kun Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: Re: Phoenix BIOS anyone?
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:48:00 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <13808@mindlink.bc.ca> Wayde_Police@mindlink.bc.ca (Wayde Police) writes:
> .... [Stuff Deleted] ....
>freeze.
>So I finally called IBM support and they told me that the problem was
>my phoenix bios is too old (1991). They said I needed to up rev to
>revision dated 05-11-92! Is this right?! Is anyone out there running
>OS2 2.0 on phoenix bios roms dated before this year's May!??
>        Wayde V. Police
> 
I am using Phoenix BIOS dated in sometime in 1990 (October 1990 I believe).
I am at work so I cannot get the exact date, but I got my 386DX/20 in 1990.
I haven't had any problem with my Phoenix BIOS.
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.misc:25979 comp.os.os2.programmer:3884
From: tamu@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Todd Henderson)
Subject: Idea for a unique delete?(for lack of a better description)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:00:04 GMT


I was watching a ballgame and they did an ad. for the dirt devel hand vac.
It was on the big board cleaning up dirt(of coarse).  At any rate, I thought
of an idea that would be better than the MAC trash can.

By using some combination of mouse buttons(it seems like os/2 has used most
already) your cursor turns into a vacuum cleaner and as you move it over
a file it sucks it up.  You could have a setting for confirmation just like
with the shredder.

Just an idea.  Sorry it's off the beaten path a little.

Todd
tamu@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu

I guess the wild mouse problem in os/2 would present problems with this.  You
are sweeping away some old files and boom, the mouse goes half way cross the
screen and everything get wiped out.

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc
From: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
Subject: Re: Nowhere directory?
Reply-To: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:41:50 GMT


In a previous article, wjb5106@zeus.tamu.edu (Walter Barnett) says:

>In article <1992Jul28.164403.13996@njitgw.njit.edu>, dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes...
>>In article <1992Jul27.183824.24864@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell) writes:
>>>
>>>It seems kind of odd to make a directory off of the root called
>>>nowhere to hold these ea's.  Is there anyway to get this directory out of 
>>>the root or keep the ea's somewhere else?
>> 
>>Why?  Is it really bothering you?  If it is, then just do a
>> 
>>      ATTTRIB +H Nowhere
>> 
>>and you won't have to see it anymore.
>> 
>
>You must have a better ATTRIB command than I do.  Mine doesn't work on 
>directories.


Of course his is better.  Look at all the extra T's.  =) =)

I was able to hide the nowhere directory allong with the spooler directory
using xtree.  It doesn't seem to hurt anything.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.misc