From: hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: cold/strep?
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:56:12 GMT
Reply-To: hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

In article <1992Sep8.204325.26205@news.iastate.edu>, txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling) writes:
>Robert W. Hatcher rights
>->How about this proposal:  Men who feel they have a "right" to veto a
>->woman's choice to an abortion ONLY have sex with women who also feal
>->this way.

>I CAN SEE IT NOW!
>
>kiss kiss, darling how do you feal about equil rights in the abortion issue?
>what not the same as mine? well thats just to bad we can not have an iament
>relationship. by. How you feal or think you feal about me doesnt mater one
>little bit if we dont agree about how much say in this issue sarry.
>
>GET REAL!!!

This IS reality.  Exactly as I meant it.  If you have strong feeling on 
the issue that could cause a problem in the future then it IS your 
responsibility to make you feelings clear and deal with the issue
in an appropriate manner.  And the senario you wrote out (abiet brief
and with attrocious spelling (could you try a little harder PLEASE!))
is exactly as I see it.  Better to cut a relationship off early than
fight over the consequences/outcome of an pregnancy.  Ahhh, maybe it
just me but my experience with relationships included talking and
communicating BEFORE we got to the "kiss, kiss" and more importantly the
"sex, sex".  Read my post as quoted above -- it talks about sex and
when men should have it with a particular women:  AFTER the possible
consequences are discussed.  

How about these:

1) kiss, kiss.  talk about abortion issue.  (ordering here could swap)
 A) compatible:  talk more
    i) move up to sex if deemed appropriate but both parties.
      a) pregnant:  no problem both parties ALREADY agree on resolution
   ii) sex not appropriate: platonic relation
 B) not compatible
    i) platonic relationship w/ NO sex
   ii) splitsville.

2) kiss, kiss, sex, sex ---> pregnacy, talk about abortion issue
 A) talk about abortion: compatible:  take agreed course of action
 B)                    incompatible:  how to resolve the conflict?
 C) no talk -- woman chooses; man has no choice 
      B) and C) ARE THE BURNING ISSUES OF THIS THREAD.

Why should there be a conflict?  It only exists because the couple was
too *stupid* to take path (1) rather than (2).  I'm stating that MEN
who choose (2) when (1) was available have no cause to whine when
the outcome is against their wishes.  No one should have a "iament"
(I presume this is "intimate") relationship with someone WITHOUT
discussing these issues -- I mean, sheez, I'm male and physically 
attracted to "beautiful" (everyone has their own definition here,
mine happens to include intelligence and personality) women; it
doesn't mean that I HAVE to sleep with them and that I can't wait
until we've discussed a few things.  (Ahh, just to make it clear here:
I am happily married and I don't fool around.  This is pre-marriage
think and/or hypothetically if I weren't.  (Doesn't mean I don't
"lust in my heart" as a former president might put it ;-))

>
>->Maybe make, no strike "make" since that implies compulsion, have both
>->parties sign a legally binding contract (if such a thing is possable?)
>->stating that said provider of any sperm that develops into a fetyse 
>->(side step the "father" issue) gets equil say in any decision.....
>
>oh boy we get to go threw a hell of a lot of paper work befor we can go out
>with someone, after all you can never tell what a date might lead to. Then

Maybe you shouldn't take sex so casually?  sheezh, I'm starting to sound
like a damn "family values" man; republicanism is NOT my ideal!
Keep your damn pants zipped!

>if the outher just happens to decide to renige on the contract by taking you 
>to court in order to absolve said contract and get a judge (or whoever 
>decides legality) who doesnt feal that the man should have an equil say then
>your scrued (no pun intended). any contracted that is not witnessed by a 
>lawyer is not leagal to begin with (this goufes up estates at times>he wrote
>a will but it wasnt witnesed right so its invalide). In cass you dont 
>realize this->lowyers coust quit a bit of money. money that most people can
>not aforded to dish out when they want to go out with someone and/or have
>sex with them after all if they go on a date and it goes farther then they 
>expected, she gets pregnite and they dont have a contract then that too damed
>bad.

Exactly.  Lawyers ("lowyers"==lowlife+lawyers? appropriate me thinks ;-)
DO cost $$ and so does raising a child as does having an abortion.  If
you can't wait to come to an agreement beforehand AND your expectations
are UNUSUAL (something other than: that the woman has final say and the 
sperm donor is expected to pay child care) then you can hardly WHINE about
the outcome.  As for a lot of legality and stupid paperwork -- most people
wouldn't have to deal with it because most are NOT affected.  It only
affects those that expect the odd outcome: control over someone elses
body and/or sex without ramifications.  By not signing such agreement
the parties involved IMPLICITLY agree to these standard expectations.

As for reneging (got my dictionary out to spell that one correctly;
maybe you should try yours next time): sorry, shit happens.  What can
I say?  How often does/would this happen?  My guess, assuming no
compulsion used in getting the woman to sign the contract, is that
it would be VERY infrequent.  Maybe, she has good reason to renege:
say, you've battered and killed your previous two children and she
figures why bother with bearing a third.  (Hey, if you can talk
in emotion ridden terms, so can I. (ohh, I just love to rile you up))

Responsiblity is the name of the game here folks.  There are too many
abortions in this country; that is NOT a moralist argument about abortions,
but based on the fact that it is an unnecssarily intrusive procedure and
in general preventable, thus should be a course of last resort.  The 
reasons behind the high number are innumerable and if people would spend
as much effort to prevent the NEED/DESIRE for an abortion as they do
trying to outlaw them this country would be in MUCH better shape.

-robert

>ELF-KIN
Somehow, I you don't seem to come across very well here in written form.
You seem an odd cross of eecummings and a poor^H^H^H^Hterrible speller.
It's like you're in an incredible hurry; sort of the impression you give
about how you deal with sex in a relationship.  Can't take the time to
get it right?