From: tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Timo Ahonen)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:42:04 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Computing Centre

In article <1bb0sdINNs4d@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) writes:

>Try to understand the precedent set by the presence of fascist SD
>mass-murder divisions on one's territory --- whose ranks are filled by
>"true Estonians/Latvians" --- then consider the legacy of the Ustashe
>and their ilk in Croatia , Bosnia-Herzegovona and Serbia. 

>I never said that the Baltics will go the same way as Yugoslavia; I did
>say that the Latvian and Estonian governments have laid the grounds for
>war by making it a lot easier for evil forces beyond their control to
>have their way. Bad legislation does not imply the sort of ridiculous
>soothsaying you claim not to partake in. It implies the release of the
>wrong forces.

>The Latvian/Estonian fascists have mates shelling Sarajevo; world war
>two war crimes are well documented. Any Latvian or Estonian who believes
>that denying unconditional citizenship is a just way to build their
>nation is partaking of the legacy of fascism and therefore is morally
>culpable for fascist acts carried out in the past, present and future.

Is he serious???

>>You might be
>>tomorrow running amok in your local supermarket and killing dozens
>>of innocent Western Australians with your rifle!

>I will make sure that it is a Finnish supermarket and that you are
>amongst the crowd.

Christ, this guy is a fuckin' loony!!!! He IS serious!

>>You make a very strong claim here. Of course, it is impossible for me to
>>tell the future, 

>You seem happy enough to believe that denying civil rights to 40% of the
>population will not have calamitous repercussions.

>>but I still outline the most likely outcomes,
>>especially the worst scenarios:

>>- Narva might declare itself as a free city (with violence).
>>- There might be some border skirmishes between Estonia and Russia
>>- The Russians could start trade embargo against Estonia (which is
>>  almost warfare, since the country is still occupied by Russian forces)
>>- The occupation of Estonia might continue.

>If economic and political ties (by means of treaties) with a broad
>federation of xUSSR states had been achieved, then there would be no
>reason for a powerful state to subjugate a signatory of such an
>arrangement unless a Communist resurgence occured and the ways of the
>federated state returned to fascism.

>As it stands, Estonia has chosen to dice with fate by (a) opposing any
>federation, thus strengthening the position of Communists within Russia;
>(b) denying civil rights to a large Russian minority, thus --- should the
>situation with the Russian minority deteriorate --- not acting to prevent
>a DEMOCRATIC Russia from forcefully defending the rights of ethnic Russians 
>AS IT IS OBLIGED TO DO UNDER INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS.

Such as?

>The Estonian government has laid itself open to manipulation by forces hostile
>to its existence; e.g. ex-Communists like Colonel Alksnis.

Accordingly to this fellow, Estonia is responsible for the rising ultra 
right-wing forces in Russia because she went independent...

>>The only violent threats we hear in Estonia come from some groups in Russian
>>parliament. 

>Denying civil rights is an act of violence.

>>Of course, if Russia falls apart and the democratic Yeltsin
>>will be pushed aside, God save Estonia!

>God save the region.

>>Since Estonia has become a part of Helsinki process and tries to become
>>Part of European council, all violent outbursts in Estonia will be
>>supressed by the Estonian government, because they are deeply unpatriotic.

>As is the denial of civil rights to the 40% ethnic minority.

Whose patria is in question here?

>>As president Lennart Meri said before the elections in Estonian TV:
>>Let's face the facts: One MIG crosses the Estonian territory in
>>eight minutes. The price of one MIG amounts about 50% of the Estonian
>>state budget (of which 3,6% is spent on defense, which he didn't add).

>Estonia is recognized as a state in the international arena. Estonia
>does not act alone --- it sets precedents for other states -- and
>would-be states -- in the region. Denial of civil rights in Estonia and
>Latvia is an argument for similar denials in Abkhazia and other Central
>Asian regions. Even if Estonia encounters smooth waters in its own
>little Baltic triste, it may yet have blood on its hands in the
>explosive theatres of Central Asia.

..and for the violence in Caucasus and Central Asia.

>John Wojdylo
>October 11, 1992

MUTLU/ARGIC has found its match. Unfuckingbelieveable, to quote EMF.

Timo Ahonen                        "Sometimes I think the surest sign that
University of Helsinki             intelligent life exists elsewhere in the
Finland                            universe is that none of it has tried to
Timo.Ahonen@Helsinki.FI            contact us." Calvin by Bill Watterson
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:8479 soc.culture.jewish:17840