From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: Are you incapable ... (provocative)
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:16:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.094125.1889@sai.vtt.fi> kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Kimmo Saarinen) writes:
>Yes, because some of you (not all) are totally incapable to
>boil down the real issues I point you out in these very first
>lines that this article is purposely provocative, kind of test
>and I look forward the possible reactions to it.

You are welcome, I am sure.

>So, back to the real issue :
>
>Are you totally incapable to distinguish the real questions/issues 
>behind one's words in his/hers articles ? Do you even try to 
>understand his/hers sayings ?

No to the first, yes to the second. I do take exception to the amount
of abuse and ranting included, though.

>To be explicit : do you think first before you react, or do you
>just react ?

Yes, about 2 secs before I responded to this post :-)

>This Jarmo's case is an example.
>Even though Jarmo don't put his words nicely, raves quite much, he
>still have some points there behind his words.

I am sure he does. He just manages to hide them real well.
A counter-example: if I were to write an article about you, in which
I would insult your ancestry, call you an oppressor, ask you when you
stopped beating your wife, make allusions to some secret agenda of
yours and continue with various other insinuations, and in between
mention that you once stepped me on the toes, you would find that
alright? I mean, I might have a point. You just might have stepped
me on the toes, but I for one don't think that that excuses the amount
of insults and abuse I heaped on you.

>                                              If you try to get
>them out. So eventhough Jarmo discredits his sayings with too much
>raving, it doesn't give you freedom to rave yourself (and discredit
>your own output) _if_you_really_are_as_civilized_as_you_want_to_show_out.
>
>Real test of your level of civilization.
>
>I can't say that I'm perfect in this kind of behaviour, I'm just human,
>but I try.

Right. We are all just human, and we all should try. This by no means
gives Jarmo license to ignore that aspect.

>           These previous postings referring Jarmo as Mutlu was from
>the most discusting ones I have ever seen here when thinking of
>respectfullness and tactfullness towards a person.

Yes? Really? So you think that Jarmo's comparison between Nazi-Germany
and Sweden was just OK? You think something like that should be tolerated
just because he *might* have a point in something else he said? You might
even think it was justified? I don't think so - your post on the whole
seems rather reasonable. But you see, *anybody* who makes a comparison
between Nazi-Germany and something else had better have some exceptionally
good reasons for it or be prepared to take some heat.

>                                                   Usually these
>characteristics are associated to the Nordic high idea of correct
>behaviour and civilization, am I right ?

Yes, and Jarmo gets trounced because he *doesn't* adhere to them
himself.

>To be expilicit : If you expect some respect towards you and your
>ideas you should show some respect yourself. Otherwise you are not
>better than your opponent what comes to the behaviour.

Of course. This is the very principle Jarmo violates in the first
place. That in itself doesn't really excuse the replies he get, but
it helps explain them.

There is something else, too. I am sure Jarmo would receive quite
a bit more tolerant reactions and sensible replies, if this was the
first time he brought up the question. But you see, it isn't the
first time. It isn't the second time either, and I should be real
surprised if it was the third. In other words, HE KEEPS DOING IT!
In the exact same insulting and raving way every time. If there is
one thing that is sure besides death and taxes, then it is the Swedish-
Finnish language war in soc.culture.nordic, and Jarmo instigates it
every time!

>I'm sick of many attitudes shown up here lately.
>
>Wille Walveranta put nicely out the real questions, those same
>questions that can be boiled down also from the Jarmo's articles
>too. If you can't conversate about them, don't react. 

I assume that what you consider the real issue are the problems which
tvangs-svenska causes in the Finnish schoolsystem, i.e. that tvangs-
svenska reduces the chances of Finnish school children to learn other,
perhaps more useful languages. If that is the case, I agree. This is
a problem which bears more discussion and perhaps even a reform of the
schoolsystem is in order. There is just a catch or two here: is that a
*nordic* problem or is it a *Finnish* problem? I would go so far as to
say that it isn't even a Swedish-Finnish problem, it is a purely Finnish
problem. Finland is a sovereign state after all.

The second catch is that Jarmo hardly touches this aspect of the question
*at all*! He instead prefers to rant and rave about the evil Swedes who
do nothing but oppress the poor Finns, and everytime he is challenged on
a given subject and asked to document and substantiate, he skips to a-
nother subject. With regard to the sensible discussion you request in
your post, such a thing is only possible, when all parties behaves sen-
sible. This just isn't the case here.

All in all, I would say that you have some valid points, and to a certain
degree you describe an ideal situation, but you might want to turn it 
around and try to understand the people who again and again are insulted
by Jarmo's ravings.


Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation