HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erich@wubios.wustl.edu (Erich Schraer)
Subject: Re: Scottish flags
Organization: Division of Biostatistics, WUMS, St. Louis, MO
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:05:26 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.160609.5513@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
	esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) writes:
>Why are there two Scottish flags?  Three if you count the Union
>Jack.  Since I am Scottish I was asked this and didn't have an
>answer.  I assume one has something to do with royalty but I'm
>not sure.

One of them, the cross of St. Andrew (blue with a white saltire),
is the Scottish national flag, and may be used be anyone (I think).
It's also incorporated into the Union Jack along with the cross of
St. George (white with a red cross) for England and the cross of
St. Patrick (white with a red saltire), which was invented for that
purpose, for Ireland.

The other flag (yellow with a red lion and tressure) is the
Scottish royal arms, and should only be used by the monarch of
Scotland (or someone authorized by the monarch to use it), though
many other people display it anyway.  It is quartered into the
royal arms of the UK.
			--Erich Schraer
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Is this good history?
Date: 13 Apr 1992 15:28:53 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>I have just gotten Joyce's two-volume history of Ireland (written around 1907?)
>from the library. Can anyone tell me how well this has stood the test of time

I don't know anything about this book (I think I've seen it but I
haven't read it).  A date of 1907, tho, means it was written
before scientific archaeological techniques were much used in
Ireland, & before 14C dating.  That means any dating in it is
probably worthless.  For example Newgrange was long thot to
be Iron Age-Bronze Age but it was found to predate both, fairly
recently.
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland: Independance v Devolution
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:18:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.1992Apr12.221843.14508
Organization: Open Communications Forum



And now that the Tories have won (again!), what will the effect be on the
Scottish independence movement? I would think it would lead to more interest in
independence, due to voter frustration, but then, it might also discourage
people...

Suze
From: ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: What does _cowardly_ mean?
Date: 6 Apr 92 07:32:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: jaguar.1992Apr6.023221.1
Organization: University of Scranton

In article <1992Apr2.014730.14844@cc.uow.edu.au>, jlloyd@cc.uow.edu.au (Jonathan Lloyd) writes:
> Unfortunately, the cowardly group he backs
> (the provisional IRA) are guilty of attrocities which have provoked, what
> can at best be described as unacceptable behaviour by some of the Security 
> forces.

	I keep hearing this word  _cowardly_  tossed at the PIRA. And I wonder
what the definition of this word is, in this context. 

	I would assume that any group, however large or small, that would
reject the rule of a powerful gov't and decide to actively engage it in combat
would be anything less than _cowardly_. Be it the PIRA, Sandinistas, American
colonists, Shining Path or what have you. 

	I would also what makes them _cowardly_? There strategy for engagement?
Would they be more brave if they picked a time and a battlefield to tell the
British Army to be there? I'd say that was foolish. Is a mortar atack on the
British Prime Minister in broad daylight a cowardly act? Is a bomb in an
attache case at the foot of the table Hitler was standing at _cowardly_?

	What would it take to make the PIRA less _cowardly_? Capitulation to
the will of 10 Downing ST? I have a feeling that nothing would do it and that
the flinging of _cowardly_ in both directions is meaningless at this point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave D. Cawley		   |	Where a social revolution is pending and,
University Of Scranton	   |	for whatever reason, is not accomplished,
ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu	   |	reaction is the alternative.
ddc1@SCRANTON		   |				-Daniel De Leon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: gjw@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Mr Garry J. Wardrope)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Tory as an Irish word
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:31:33 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

frankm@microsoft.com (Frank R.A.J. Maloney) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>Can you imagine my surprise when I read that Tory derives
>from an Irish word "toruidhe, robber, persuer (later applied
>to outlaws and armed Irish Papists) < toir, to pursue; akin
>to Gael. toir, pursuit". Thus sayeth the Webster's New World
[more stuff deleted]

A 24 yr old bank clerk here managed to send a memo to the Conservative
Association informing them of this - in an official bank letter.
He was sacked by the National Savings Bank for "gross industrial misconduct".
He said is was a note for his part time politics and sociology course which
was inadvertantly mixed up with mail to bank customers.  he is planning
to appeal.


		Garry
-- 
Mail:	Garry Wardrope, Computing Science Dept.,  Tel: (041) 339 8855 x5322
	Glasgow Univ., 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK. 
ARPA:	gjw%dcs.glasgow.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk USENET:gjw@dcs.glasgow.uucp
JANET:	gjw@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs   useBANGnet: ...mcsun!ukc!dcs.glasgow.ac.uk!gjw
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 14:25:28 EDT
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland: Independance v Devolution
 <31635@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> <15289@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
 <1992Apr15.172046.5898@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>

In article <1992Apr15.172046.5898@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew
Huntbach) says:
>
>From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
>> I really think it is about time we split this group. In particular, I
>>find that I waste a lot of my time having to wade through the continued
>>arguments regarding Scot politics. Perhaps a group named talk.politics.scot
>>is in order, as I have little interest in Scot politics and I really
>>think this group should be left for what I like, I mean it should be
>>left for what I think is culture, no no no - I mean it should be for
>>soc issues not political ones..... thank you,
>
>Gary, were you not the one who was arguing strongly against
>splitting out discussion of Northern Irish politics a while
>back? Or did I miss an invisible smiley from the above?

No, I think Gary must have left his terminal logged in, and somebody
else posted this just to stir shit.

Didn't you notice the how totally different in tone this message was to
Gary's other postings?

(Yes, _this_ message is posted with my tongue firmly in my cheek!)
>
>Matthew Huntbach
Aengus
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
From: Robert.Evans@uk.ac.cf.cm (Robert Evans)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:36:57 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

In article <1992Apr2.140212.5586@bsu-ucs.uucp> 00rdharringt@bsu-ucs.uucp (Rob Harrington, Ball State University) writes:
|This may seem like a dumb question but why is Europe uniting?
|
|Economically I can understand but otherwise it seems awfully inane.
|Europe is great because it has all the different nationalities, the German,
|the French, the Danes, the Italians, the Irish, the British,... to
|try and fuse those together would be stupid.  I can't imagine why
|anyone would want to say "I'm European" rather than "I'm (insert
|nationality)"  Maybe it's just that I'm a silly American... I dunno...

But will we say that?  England has been part of a Union since 1535 but few
Englishmen or Englishwomen would say "I'm British" rather than "I'm English".
Or would they?  Of course, this might be due to the novelty.  450 years isn't
a long time.
-- 
  Robert Evans, Department of Computing Mathematics,
  University of Wales College of Cardiff, Wales, UK.  +44 (0)222 874000 x 5518
  Robert.Evans@cm.cf.ac.uk                      (FAX) +44 (0)222 666182
From: bryan@megatest.UUCP (Brendan Ryan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: TEST
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:45:50 GMT
Organization: Megatest Corporation, San Jose, Ca


 THIS IS A TEST
From: 8805296@ul.ie (John Evans/Sean MacEimhin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What goes around comes around
Date: 10 Apr 92 01:32:40 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Apr7.072444.21041@cs.rose-hulman.edu>, geraghj@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John Geraghty) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
> Before anyone tries to rip this apart on the grounds that I'm not Irish
> just another god damn Yank...I've got you there. I was Born and Bred in a  
> small town in Co Tipperary in the Republic Of Ireland called Roscrea and  
> I'm proud of Jackie Charlton and the Lads. I've only been in the States 
> since August and I will be Home soon. Ah I swear to God I'll never 
> complain about the Guinness they slop up in the Stables again.
> 
I had a pint of Arthurs in the Stables last night.... it was terrible... truly
awful.. I couldn't finish it so I had a pint of Murphy's which is always
passable... why is this always the case?

I bet that within a week you'll be complaining again...
   
> John Geraghty
> **************************************************************************
> The views I have expressed are my own. I did not read them in any book
> instead I have lived them. They are open to discussion but not to 
> argument or deformation of meaning. 
> John Geraghty ---- I have fought in the battle of life and survived-so far 
>                     anyway 

John Evans, Final Year Project lab, Dept. of Comp Science and Info Systems,
University of Limerick, Ireland. E-mail 8805296@ul.ie.  /------------------
------------------------------------------------------/
Protect the west - maintain the Shannon Stopover...
From: grd@aber.ac.uk (Gareth John Dixon)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: kentish independence
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:39:45 GMT
Organization: University College of Wales, Aberystwyth

A few weeks ago, someone posted an article claiming that Kent was ripe for 
independence!  Is this person sane ?  Knowing some of the people from that
part of the world I doubt it.  Suppose the "If it's good enough for them then.."
rule comes into play, what will that leave of Great Britain.  Devolution for 
Wales and Scotland, yes,   Kent ?  Perhaps this person would like to clarify 
his/her views for the benefit of us mere mortals who don't really understand
what they're up to in Kent.  Of course if Kent were to devolve, would that 
mean that they get to keep the Channel Tunnel ?  Believe me, they're welcome
to it.

________________________________________________________________________________
|					|				       |
|   Welsh, and proud of it!!		|  Gareth J. Dixon.		       |
|					|	grd@uk.ac.aber		       |
|_______________________________________|______________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: seanr@spock.retix.com (Sean MacRoibeaird)
Subject: Re: Suze / Ireland / Support for paramilitaries
Organization: Retix, Santa Monica CA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:24:35 GMT

dcnnnghm@unix1.tcd.ie writes:

"We, the Irish living in Ireland, wish that people such as Noraid, and
those  that   support them, would take   a    flying  leap off a  high
building."

Who gave  you a mandate  to  speak for  the people of Ireland. Because
somebody is not living in Ireland for a year or two does not invalidate
their  arguments.  It would be  a  lot better   that bad  articles are
condemned based on their content (  or  lack thereof) rather  than the
location of the peole who wrote the bad articles.

Bland generalisations like yours contribute nothing. If you decided to
work abroad for a  while, would that  invalidate your opinions? If you
disagree with somebody's support of Noraid or other such organisations
then you should  be able to  come up with valid reasons  why - as many
others in this group have in the past. You should  not have to rely on
the "We the irish living in Ireland" crap.

Sean Mac Roibeaird
-- 

=======================================================================
The views expressed here are mine, and mine  alone. If you want to know
my employer's opinion - ask him.
From: venable@faculty.coe.wvu.wvnet.edu (WALLACE VENABLE)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Kentish Independance?
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:31:42 GMT
Organization: WVU College of Engineering


	It seems to me that the idea of independance for Kent is 
impractical.  It's not big enough, evan for a Balkan state.
	If England is to be diveded, I would suggest using the more natural 
states:  Anglia, Thames, Granada, and so on.  Isn't modern society defined 
by the telly we watch?
From: skenny@nano.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Why the English are to blame for Everything
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:55:25 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

pac9897@zeus.tamu.edu (SMELLS LIKE JOHN MAJOR....) writes:

>8, The crucifiction, see above, it took place in COVENTRY not Calgary at
>   the hands of those murdering English swine.                ^^^^^^^

WOW!!!!! I never knew CANADA played such an important role in the death
of Christ. I always thought it was the winter olympics. Oh well, learn a
new thing everday. :-)
--
=================================
skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca
St. John's, NF, CANADA
"Have a touton or do without'n !"
From: mbrennan@swift.cs.tcd.ie (Micheal O'Braonain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 16 Apr 92 11:10:18 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Trinity College Dublin

In article <15311@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
> Tell it to the catholics in Belfast or Derry - or better yet, wait until they're
> beaten into submission and then tell us all how wonderful the British have been.

Your concern for the Catholics of West Belfast is touching.  I hope it isn't
detracting from your concern for other ethnic minorities who are being
exploited, live in danger and fear of the law and exist in a hostile and
alien society.  Take for instance all those nice Mexicans who "don't live"
in southern California.  You know the ones who dont't speak English, who
clean your hotel room, keep the grounds tidy, work on assembly lines, pick
the fruit crop, and regularly get deported.

Convince me that Mexicans in California are not exploited; that Californian
service industries could continue without illegal immegrants; that the
Californian fruit crop would be harvested.  Be warned, I witnessed too
much sickening exploitation to be fobbed off by platitudes or cliches.

> Irish-Americans are far better off as a whole than are the 
> Irish themselves... 
Pity we don't have any blacks or mexicans round here to exploit!

Gary as an American-Irish you've got a lot of exploited people and groups
to worry about!  How about cleaning up your own back yard a bit before
you look over your neighbours fence?
-- 
 ,   ,  ,      ,              ,       ,          ,          ,  ,      ,
Micheal O Braonain     Roinn Riomheolaiochta, Colaiste Na Trionoide, BAC 2.
Email                  mbrennan@cs.tcd.ie
"Indecision is not an ignoble condition" - Brian Friel.
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 16 Apr 1992 06:49:50 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Michael Helm writes:
>Many of the pony soldiers & Indian fiters were Irish.
>Like "Buffalo Bill" Cody.  Born in Ireland I believe.

Argh, I'm a victim of Buffalo Bill's still-clanking pr machine.
There's considerable controversy whether he was Irish at all, tho
it's a commonplace bit of folklore he was.  Look into it, you'll
see.  There's a picturesque log cabin (in Wyo?) that needs
its historical marker sign amended, too.

I'll just have to fall back to General Sheridan & John Sullivan
(Iroquois war in 18th century) til I think of something better.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: mikeh@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (michael p.herlihy)
Subject: Bagpipe Wedding Songs
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 17:06:14 GMT


Thanks to one and all who posted suggestions for bagpipe wedding
songs. Sorry I couldn't thank you individually but work has
been hectic.  Thanks again.

mherlihy@attmail.att.com
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Liking Indiana (was Re: Sick'n'tired of the "Troubles"
Date: 7 Apr 92 11:20:29 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: smaill@aisb.ed.ac.uk (Alan Smaill)
>However, I have become confused by usage in this group of the terms
>Nationalist/Republican. Are they synonymous?
>At least some people seem to use nationalist/republican in the
>narrower sense of supporters of Sinn Fein/the IRA, whereas
>most members of the Catholic community are neither.

A convention seems to have grown up that "Nationalist" refers
to anyone whose ambition is a united Ireland, but "Republican"
refers to that subset of those people who pursue their ambition
through violence.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: alastair@Cadence.COM (Alastair Young)
Subject: Re: Nat / constitution info needed
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:04:08 GMT

In article <tahonen.40@katk.Helsinki.FI> tahonen@katk.Helsinki.FI (Ahonen Timo) writes:
>
>P.S. If I'd be eligible to vote in Scotland, I'd vote tactical.

I wish the voters out there had been bright enough to think the same.

:-(
-- 




Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:3632 soc.culture.british:6637
From: cmorris@Ingres.COM (Colin Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Women in parliament
Keywords: April 9th and April 11th
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:55:29 GMT
Reply-To: cmorris@Ingres.COM (Colin Morris)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501

In article <1222@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:
>
>One might think that having a female prime minister for many years
>would make a country more open to women in politics. Has this
>happened? 
>

Apparently, in all her twelve years in power, Margaret Thatcher didn't
appoint a single woman to her cabinet...

--
Colin Morris       Ingres, an ASK company       cmorris@ws2s.ingres.com

"Clive Thomas' decision was the watershed when we realised that referees
 were crazy egotists and mad people" -- Six-O-Six
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: csb58666@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Chad S. Beckett)
Subject: Re: Two Celtic cultures -- two newsgroups
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:07:19 GMT

cockburn@majors.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:


>What about:

>soc.culture.celtic.language  (for discussions in and about Celtic languages)
>soc.culture.celtic.politics  (for general political discussion)
>soc.culture.celtic.misc      (for everything else)

I agree completely.

Chad Beckett                                                                    
uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: mike@nomad.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:02:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22729
Reply-To: mike@nomad.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.20

Micheal O'Braonain writes:
>minded around here.  Perhaps some of our American-Irish contributors
>would take note.

Many of the pony soldiers & Indian fiters were Irish.
Like "Buffalo Bill" Cody.  Born in Ireland I believe.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: csb58666@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Chad S. Beckett)
Subject: Re: Scotland: Independance v Devolution
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:55:40 GMT

gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:



> I really think it is about time we split this group. In particular, I
>find that I waste a lot of my time having to wade through the continued
>arguments regarding Scot politics. Perhaps a group named talk.politics.scot
>is in order, as I have little interest in Scot politics and I really
>think this group should be left for what I like, I mean it should be
>left for what I think is culture, no no no - I mean it should be for
>soc issues not political ones..... thank you,


                        gln
Yes!! This what I mean! do you see the logic now!  Obviously I must improve
my communicative skills.

Chad S. Beckett

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan)
Subject: Re: Update on the Caraher shooting
Reply-To: holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 18:04:07 GMT


(Ian Preece) writes: Re: Update on the Caraher shooting

|>>
|>>  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - BB
|>                      ^^^
|>Odd, isn't it, how the further one gets from the situation, the more
|>entrenched and volubly-expressed one's opinions become ?

The update I posted was written by Sandy Carlson, reporting from Belfast.
How much closer does one have to be to the situation?

Quote from Boston Globe Article:
    The [British] army had initially said the Carahers were shot
because they had sped through a security checkpoint and knocked
down a soldier, but witnesses disputed that account. Many who
dispute the army account believe the brothers were shot because
Fergal Caraher was a member of Sinn Fein, the political party
that supports the Irish Republican Army.

|>
|>Some of us have to live here.....

That doesn't justify murder! Besides that's your problem, 
not mine.

 
                   Mark
--
*******************************************************************************

  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - BB
  holohan@epik.enet.dec.com
  
  The opinions expressed are not necessarily the opinions of 
  Digital Equipment Corporation.

*******************************************************************************
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:10:13 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: gmcquary@Ingres.COM (George F. McQuary)
>Every Irish-Americian learns as a child that seven of the US presidents were
>all or in part of Irish decent (Now eight with Reagan?) so we have obtained
>here a status in the world not enjoyed by Ireland itself.  We came to this
>country because of famine, having our land stolen from us, conscription, or
>as white slaves for the plantations.

Where you stole the land from its native inhabitants, wiped
most of them out, and enjoyed the wealth created by black
slaves.

>When faced with such arrogance in the sons of the people who did this to us,
>it is  difficult NOT to cheer whenever someone blows up more British. I very
>much resent the attitude that Irish-americians should keep quiet about Irish
>politics.

Did you cheer at the fifteen year old girl who was killed by
the latest IRA bomb in London or her seven year old sister who
is in hospital trying to get her sight saved?

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Two Celtic cultures -- two newsgroups
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 04:49:46 GMT



How about talk.politics.celtic  ? Other culture groups that have this sort
of contention have similar analogs for the really "inflammable" stuff.

Suze

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic