HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vincent@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Victor W. Wong)
Subject: Re: On the Nature of Armor ...
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 09:19:39 EST

Pondering on the musings of Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus on this subject,
I note that his remarks on the use of non-period materials tend to ig-
nore one of their main advantages: local availability.
 
There ARE some areas of the Known World where steel is not readily
available.  In those areas, the use of other materials is understand-
able--especially if one is trying to construct "safe" armor.  An exam-
ple I can think of is what is mundanely known as the Atlantic Coast
of Canada, where traditional armor-making materials are difficult to
get ahold of.
 
There is also the fact that authentic armor is expensive to make--not
just in terms of money, but in time invested in construction.  This
is why I have no problems seeing hockey or other sports equipment being
worn by fighters; "no time, no money" is an excuse, granted, but a
valid one nonetheless.  Furthermore I gather the unwritten rule about
such things is that since they do adequate protection, they are allowed
--provided some attempt is made to cover them up or otherwise make them
less noticeable, such as wrapping them in duct tape or some metallic
substance.  (I have heard rumours of a fighter somewhere completely
covered in duct tape, but I'm sure that's an exaggeration ... )

Certainly I agree that Lord Thomas's points on armor are valid, but if
we were to insist on every fighter wearing authentic, period armor, the
fighting strength of the SCA would be severely diminished, and it would
especially be difficult to recruit new people to replace those retiring
from the field, for the reasons stated above.

Vincent the Calculator
======================================================================
                            VICTOR WONG
                     vincent@micor.ocunix.on.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
            "Closed minds lead short lives."--Anonymous
======================================================================

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Canonical Hours
Reply-To: acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 08:05:10 GMT


Greetings, good and gentle folk!
 
       In answer to the question about the Canonical hours of the day, a
quick trip to the dictionary provided the following information:
 
       Matins & Lauds -- "celebrated together as the first Canonical Hour;
                           the Night Office"
       Prime -- the first hour of the day; the second Canonical Hour
       Terce -- the third; the third
       Sext -- the sixth hour of the day; the fourth Canonical Hour
       None(s) -- the ninth; the fifth
       Vespers -- "the sixth Canonical Hour, sung in the late afternoon;
                    evening worship"
       Compline -- the seventh and last Canonical Hour
 
       I don't have a source for this, but I remember the Hours as being
placed at three-hour intervals around the clock: Lauds at 3 AM, Prime at
6 AM, Terce at 9 AM, Sext at midday, Nones at 3 PM, Vespers at 6 PM, and
Compline at 9 PM.  Perhaps someone who's better versed in this sort of
thing could elaborate or correct me? and I'll just go back and hide in 
the holly....
 
	I have a request of the Rialto: If any of the good gentles assem-
bled here has previously posted a "newsletter-worthy" article, could he or
she drop me a note at acsrdl@umassd.edu?  The once-glorious monthly pub-
lication of River Keep has become a mangy, ill-fed beast of late, and as a
former editor (and current printer's devil) I'm trying to find as much good
material as I can to restore it to sleek and plump good health.
 
	My thanks.
 
        Otter Aelfwyn                 /\ .  . .  .|\
        in service to River Keep      \//|\/|\|\/||/ ___////////////,,,
        Kingdom of the East           /\ |  | |  ||\    \\\\\\\\\\\\```
 
                   That's a BLUE FEATHER, not a highway marker!  Sheesh!
 
P.S.  I recently downloaded the articles on "Belly-bunnies" and Fealty --
and I'm really beginning to wonder if I should include the rest of the
thread the latter article has spun!  ;-)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
	<1992Dec31.172333.13978@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>
	<1992Dec31.192102.24652@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
	<1992Dec31.231346.5042@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 19:19:42 GMT

Alan Kerr did write:

>...and think about what was asked and what I asked.  every sundial
>that I have seen has had *ONE* set of markings on it that correspond
>to the *modern* concept of 'hours'.

But they don't.  A sundial measures where the sun is in it's path across
the sky, without regard to how long that path actually takes.  When the sun
is highest (local noon) the shadow of the gnomon will *always* be at the
middle marking (or disappear entirely).  When the sun is on the horizon
(sunup or sundown) the shadow will always be in the same place, which will
depend on the latitude (I think), but not the time of year.  Therefore, you
only need one set of markings, as long as the sundial stays in more or less
the same place.

My practical astronomy is kind of rusty, so I'm not sure I can explain why
this is true.  Could someone possibly give a proper explanation of how this
works? 

			----Simon




From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 16:30:37

    Jeremy de Merstone wrote:

 P> While it may be true that efforts towards a *systematic* Latin blazoning
 P> system date from the 1600s,  it is demonstrably true that Latin blazoning
 P> was used in period.  The Matthew Paris rolls [c. 1260] have the arms
 P> described primarily in Latin, as do many other heraldic documents of
 P> Tadhg's "core period" in England and elsewhere (even in areas such as the
 P> Holy Roman Empire which were outside of "Western Culture" by Tadhg's
 P> definition).  So this argument will not fly.

 Excuse me ... what "Tadhg's definition of Western Culture" are you (and
 others, apparently) referring to here? I am not aware of defining "Western
 Culture" at any time. I have specified the area from which I would prefer
 to see us take our armorial style, and I am of opinion that that certainly
 represents the CORE of the "Western Culture" that the SCA exists to
 emulate, but at no time have I claimed that that area represents the
 *whole* of "Western Culture".

 I'm more or less inured to catching flak for opinions that I *do* hold,
 but I categorically refuse to be shot at for opinions that I *don't *
 hold.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: non-fighting rulers
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 06:29:00 GMT

Lord Elwyn, pray, why is being royalty the appropriate reward for all
excellence?

The poetry that moves this great clanking anachronism has room for a
lot of things; permit me to doubt that it has room for 'I am Arthur,
King of the Britons, because I was given a set of carpentry tools
by the Lady of the Lake and am the second best woodworker the world
will ever see.'  (He can't be better than St. Joseph, and Jesus is
unfair competition. :)

Royalty are only special because you think they are special.
( I mean, come on, what are the going to do - ride over and burn
down your house?)

Graydon
From: Michael.Marciel@f111.n363.z1.fidonet.org (Michael Marciel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:Heraldric Question
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 06:15:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:363/111 - The SCSI Resource, Orlando FL

  Good Gentals,

It has been my experience in the Heraldry of the Society (8 yrs.) that most
 members of the society have a very large indepent streak about them.  Since
 our job somtimes includes saying "no" we are not look upon kindly by some of
 our members and of course there are some of our members who delight in pushing
 the 'rules' to the wall no matter how resonable they are.  The college of arms
 only provides the structure we work and has never sought to tell people how to
 design arms.
   In the mundane world we have grown use to the fact of the rights of the
 person and chaft at any rules we encounter.  The rules and structure we have
 place about ourselves are very loose in comparison to many of the rules we do
live by in the mundane world.  I would like to put forth the idea that we work
 as a group to unify our desires in the college of arms rather than say 'do it
my way and it will be alright'.  Most of the complaint I've heard are directed
 at the CoA from a personal bias.  Many them have valid points and have shown
 me many new ideas so why are they no express to the BoD.  I sure many of these
 ideas can be address in a productive manner if we would stop grinding our
 personal axes.  I keep see the SCA break apart like the civil war group over
 stupid issues like buttons.  I would be sorry to lose such a good group over a
 stupid reason.


--  
        Michael Marciel  -  via FidoNet Node: 1:363/42
             UUCP:  -  ...tarpit!tous!business!111!Michael.Marciel
             ARPA:  -  Michael.Marciel@f111.n363.z1.fidonet.org
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Date: 31 Dec 92 23:15:32
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu's message of Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:12:55 GMT


ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) writes:
] Greetings to all, from Vajk!
]
] The recent thread about firearms in the SCA, and at events, 
] caught my attention.  Someone asked why firearms make some
] people uneasy.
]
] I live in a town of about 96,000.  Over the last three years, we
] have had more than 50 homicides per year, including one year
] with about 70 (we had had only 19 the year before).

Did you forget to say that these were all firearm homicides, or
do you know that they were ? In the U.S., more people are killed
with knives than guns, I've read. And yet, people in the
SCA carry around knives and even swords in great numbers.

I've set the follow-up line to a different newsgroup.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mongol bows...
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 20:39:00 -0700

Phillips, E. D., The Mongols, London, 1969

is one source which comes to mind...if you don't have access to it... then 
try "Four Gothic Kings" which has an excerpt regarding the contact between 
the Mongols and Europe from the same source... in any case, yes, recurves 
are period.
                                 Jessica Creaven
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Policy
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:37:41
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<1hnjcfINNcm4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 28 Dec 92 19:09:03 GMT


To fight in the Crown Tourney of Glorious Aetenveldt, you must
either be a Knight or Master, or have one vouch for you in advance.
This system works well, especially in a large kingdom where
the Crown just can't know all those worthy to compete. It instead
places the responsibility on the Chivalry, a good place for it
I think, although I might expand it to any Peer.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: DEW@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Baron Dur al-Jabar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Well, well, and more well....
Date: 2 Jan 93 22:11:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Orluk Oasis
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

Here's some that were passed along...

>You forgot:
>
>Finkwell, a newsletter for those who know who not to know!
>
>Minkwell, for those cleavage every direction ladies...
>
>annnnnnnnd
>
?The Great Dark Newsletter.  I can't read it though, it's written
>in windtext3.

Then there's Dinkwell, for those who are truely late (that's delinquent for 
you non-military types)

Enjoy, and keep those cads and leathers coming!

Dur T. Nasty (olde Barron)

Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:45:34

    Tibor wrote:

 MS> Tadhg, if I recall correctly, this is inconsistent with your previous
 MS> position on naming conventions.

 Quite possibly. Very often I do it just to pull Arval's chain.

 MS> You have consistently used pejoratives to describe non-period naming
 MS> practices that are not authentic or documentable, lamenting that
 MS> they are TSCA (Typical SCA).

 What, you aren't conversant with my remarks about the fire-breathing swans
 and other NPS dreck that gets submitted as armory? I'll have to send you
 an anthology of my CoA commentary for the past four years.

 "Pejoratives"? I'd say that "invective and vituperation" would be rather
 closer to the mark....

 MS> So, on the one hand, you seem to maintain that modelling of period
 MS> behavior takes precedence over SCA style when creating names, but the
 MS> inverse when creating armory?

 Yup, because the rules are quite different for the two. The name rules say
 explicitly "document it and you can use it", with a very few exceptions;
 the armory rules conversely explicitly disallow practices that are
 demonstrably period, as Lord Treblerose has never ceased to point out. If
 our name rules were as restrictive as our armory rules, we would have far
 fewer Welsh and Vikings and far more French/Spanish/Italians in the SCA,
 than is the case at present. (Of course, if we were really trying to be
 authentic, a large proportion of us would be named "John" and "Mary".)

 Another difference is that "SCA armorial style" quite comfortably tries to
 err on the side of authenticity, while "SCA naming style" makes a valiant
 effort to turn us into a mutant descendant of the Tolkien Society by way
 of Darkover and the Dragonriders of Pern....

    Tadhg, Obelisk


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Summary: more info
Keywords: Midrealm Crown
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:54:37 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

>The following post is from my Khan, Bagshi, as he sits reading the Rialto
>over my shoulder.

>and isn't that what we're about? Let us not deny, there are "naturals" out
>there, and when you use a filter system, you'll never discover them.

>Bagshi, Kakhan of the Dark Horde Moritu

One little-known fact about the MidRealm Crown Tourney system is that some
Crowns have not included unbelted fighters who did not fight for the MidRealm
at Pennsic.  The only case that I am sure about involved the old Horde many
years ago, but I have not tried to analyze the lists.  My memory is that
one or two persons would have been involved.

If anyone wants to read up on Boarshaven, the origins of the Dark Horde in
the Middle, the New Gothic Army, etc., go find a copy of Orlando Ambrosius'
excellent History of the MidRealm which seems to cover this bit of history
quite well (it happened before my time, but everyone was still talking about
it and the history seems to be consistent with this).

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: Non-fighting Royalty
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 07:00:00 GMT


"Civil War", eh?

I like it, Dennis.  I really do.  ;)

I'm not sure how *practical* it is, but hey, the current system isn't really
likely to change, anyway.  So we might as well have some fun with the
alternatives.

	-- Elwyn

		(going off to consider plotting an insurrection)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: CFRYE@kentvm.kent.edu (Cal Frye)
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Organization: Kent State Univ.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:13:54 GMT

In article <725767220.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP>
Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writeth:
>   [...about equal-hour divisions of unequal day and night...]
>1. Are you pulling our legs?  If no, proceed to 2....
>3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that would take
>this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?
>
 Yes, milord, such a timepiece is by the practised in the art called a
"sundial".  This noble instrument doth divide the day into equal hours,
whether 'tis midwinter or the hight of summer.  At times of darkness,
however, 'tis a most difficult matter...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
cfrye@kentvm.kent.edu  Jaromir Bjarnrud       mka - Cal Frye
cfrye@kentvm (Bitnet) | Azure, a sun gules     Dept. of Geology
ak232 (Cleve. Freenet) on a pile Or...   -    Kent State University
71777,3101(CompuServe) Marche of Gwyntarian   Kent, OH  44240
                       Middle Kingdom        (216) 678-7006
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:30:08
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org's message of Sat, 26 Dec 1992 22:34:46


Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
] [vis-a-vis heraldric devices]
] we are bound (however tenuously) to authenticity, and so long
] as we constitute a single Known-World-wide unitary heraldic jurisdiction,
] that requirement of authenticity binds us to have a consistent armorial 
] style, whether adopted from a period jurisdiction or developed on our
] own account.

Axiom_1 : we must be authentic : (meaning true to Period practice, I assume)

Prop_1 : we must have a consistant armorial style

Problem : prove or disprove the theorum

	"If Axiom_1 then Prop_1"

Method Chosen : Disproof by Counterexample

	All period heraldric devices were not consistant with
	any one consistant armorial style. Therefor, one can be
	authentic without being consistant to any particular style.

Q.E.D.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mitch@cmptrc.lonestar.org (Mitch Veenstra)
Subject: Re: Spinning and Weaving
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:19:46 GMT
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX

I have the Hands on Spinning book that Interweave puts out.  I would definetly
recommend it to a begining spinner.
From: snolan@postmaster@hq.af.mil (Scott D Nolan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 28 Dec 92 17:53:23 GMT
Reply-To: snolan@marge.hq.af.mil
Organization: 7th Communications Group

In article <1992Dec28.104827.9784@ac.dal.ca>, sinister@ac.dal.ca writes: 
|> 	I am wondering... does anyone have a "Period Calendar", as
|> it were, covering the popular Holidays/Observances/NoteableTime
|> Bits of Period?  I keep seeing posts ended with things like
|> "Written the 3rd Day before Michealmas";  it would be interesting
|> to have a list for things like dating scrolls and missives.

Ditto; I'd also like to know what sources are used to answer the
original posting, and an additional question:

What are the monastic times of the day, and what do they equate to,
and why?

Many thanks in advance,
 
     Duncan Tiercel MacLeod
     Barony of Storvik, Atlantia

     snolan@marge.hq.af.mil

==============================================================

We are lucky we don't have as much government as we pay for!

			- will rodgers
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Date: 24 Dec 92 00:18:58 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

In article <6185@naucse.cse.nau.edu> wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:

>I fanyone is interested, I will be hosting a period shoot in Ered
>Sul (Flagstaff, AZ) in May or June.  The contests will include
>matchlock musket, early style flintlock pistol, wheellock and
>a general catagory for flintlock muskets.

My Lord,

	What of plunging mortar fire, and small and large bore cannon?
Or, if the contest is 10 shots with a musket, can I load 50 grapeshot in
my cannon, and enter five times/shot?

Yours in great glee and anticipation
Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
From: Ron.Hauser@f76.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Hauser)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pavel Read This!!!
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 14:03:03 -0500

Hey Pavel, you are such a hyper conservative!  Seriously, I didnt see your 
post about racism, etc.  I did see your "am I getting through post, and I 
responded... But, more to the point, do you see this???  Am I getting 
through???  We're both being censored!!  Auugh!!

--rolf--

P.S. notice that I now have the right spelling for my email address below. 
 (that was why you couldn't respond to me email before).

**Ron Hauser, aka H.L Rolf Eichmann, Kingdom of Calontir.
**Internet email to     ron.hauser@howard.omahug.org
**Fidonet               1:280/25 Howard's Notebook
**     <or>             1:280/76 The Wolfsden






Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: On the Nature of Armor ...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 10:31:17 GMT

>is better ventilated than true period armor.  Since my persona would not
>have worn a tabard, I'm planning on making a hauberk of aliminum scales.  It
>will essentially look period, and I won't have to suffer and endure wearing
>a heavy steel coat.

Milord,

As an aside. Why make scale armor, just for looks?  A fighter in our
shire disguises his carpet armor under an oversized T-tunic. Several
fighters disquise their later period leg-harnesses under baggy sweat
pants or "tube pants". The effect is very good at producing that
"minimally armored" look that you see in most illustrations of Viking
warriors and the like, and llooks very good, since only the helmet and
gloves are visible.
	I have heard of other fighters concealing most of their armor
under puffy Landsknechkt costumes, or cavalier pantaloons and "buff
coats". 
	Why go to the trouble of making "cosmetic" armor when a simple
piece of clothing will do? Best of all, you can WASH the tunic after
you're through wearing it:)
	
Lothar \|/
        0

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Tourney customs
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 17:49:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.005514.11769@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>

snip
     
>In my experience it does none of the above.
>
>To those who have said that Crown Tournaments are the apogee of the tournament,
>I can only say that you must have been very fortunate in your choice
>of crown tournaments to fight in.  In my experience, crown tournament
>bouts are characterised by appalling conservatism (occasionally
>bordering on cowardice), rhino-hiding even from people of normally
>good standards, arrogant marshalling, and lack of the jolly good
>fellowship that makes fighting fun.

I agree with you about the atmosphere, everyone is keyed up at crown
tourney. Even the artisans are on edge becasue the Kingdom A&S
competions are held on the same day or the day after. The size of a
crown tourney also stretches the resources of the host group to the
limit, meaning that all of the autocrat and cooking staff are even more
stressed out than normal. I'd never go out of my way to see crown. The
only people who go are people who have business there.

Lothar \|/
        0.

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet