From: nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Let's hit Nazis?
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:33:39 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

In article <1993Jan26.004612.18744@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.222125.29507@news.tufts.edu> nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw) writes:
>>
>>	This argument back and forth over the Nazis and what the Germans
>>should or should not have done is, pardon me, fairly pointless.  The
>
>Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you don't see the point.
>
>>speeches, writings and edicts of Adolf Hitler made it very clear that he
>>intended to rid Germany (at least) of Jews, one way or another.  The
>>point is, no one cared.  Not Germans, not Americans, not French.  In
>
>Nor, for that matter, did all of Germany's Jews believe it.  When my
>mother's family left in 1933, they shocked all their relatives and 
>friends, who were quite angry at them for going just when Germany
>needed them.  After all, this thing was goingt o blow over soon.

The blindness of most Jews and our stupid faith in humanity (after all,
these were the Germans - Europe's finest!) has cost us many martyrs, it
is true.  That does not mean that Hitler did not make his attitudes on
Jews extremely explicit.  I have been reading Hitler's speeches from the
start of the NAzi movement and I fail to see how his intent could have
been misconstrued.  the problem was most people didn't think that he
meant what he ssaid.  he was just using anti-semitism to get votes (some
thought in and of itself, no?), he is a fringe party, the Nazis will
disappear, etc.

	>
>>Eastern Europe, the locals began mass murdering Jews as soon as they
>>heard that the Nazis were on their way.  
>
>Utter nonsense.  There were incidents like this, but it was hardly a 
>general rule as you make it out to be.  

Utter nonsense, yourself.  Incidents like this included Poland,
Lithuania, etc.  Jews like my Grandfather who took up arms in Bialystock
had to fear the locals as much as the Nazis.  Others, like my
grandmother lost their families in Lithuania, Before the Nazis arrived.
the Nazis merely finished what the locals had started.  Furthermore,
attacking Jews was and is a time-honored tradition in Eastern Europe.

I don't blame the Nazis for being more anti-semitic than any one else.
>
>>In the Middle East, the Mufti
>>of Jerusalem was offering to set up crematoria in Dimona in Israel.
>
>This happened rather late in the game.

My point was that it was clear what was up.  My step

My stepgrandfather, who fought in the US air force at the time said that
he knew exactly where the camps were and trhe ghettoes, and further,
that everyone knew what was going on.

They just could not believe it!

>
>>Everyone knew what the Nazis intended, but nobody cared.  
>
>Not so; your oversimplification and muddle don't contribute to
>understanding.  You can make *anything* pointless like that.
>
>>Similarly, it
>>makes NO difference to me WHY people supported the Nazis.  Just like it
>
>Fine.  That's *you*.  Those of us who aren't interested in repeating
>the mistakes of the past need to know.

To avoid repeating the mistakes of the past?  Do you think that the Jews
had anything that thgey could have done to avoid the same fate that met
them in England, Babylon, Spain, Russia, you name it?  Yes, we have a 
responsibility to avoid repeating the past, but we cannot change anyone
but ourselves.  therefore, i suggest we stop worrying about the Germans,
and start teaching the Jews to take seriously what people say when they

say that they want tio kill the Jews.  We must learn, yes, that the only
peiople in the world that can take care of Jews, are Jews.  Every other
nation on earth seems to understand this, what makes us so obstinate?
Perhaps that good ole "faith in humanity" thing.  

>
>>makes no difference to me why the blacks of Crown Heights decided to
>>attack the Jews there.  
>
>They didn't.  *Some* blacks attacked *some* Jews.
>
>Y'know what?  Attitudes like yours were partly responsible.  People
>who speak and think like you tend to show a great deal of contempt
>for those who are unlike them.  They tend to show little interest in
>any buttheir own, and often behave rudely toward others.  This is
>no provocation of violence in and of itself, but it does not 
>relieve tensions either.

I am accused here of rudeness?!?!?!?! I have a great deal of contempt
for those who don't think like me?!?!?!?!?!  I am rude?!?!?!?!?  
First of all, is it not the least insul;ting of you to categorize me as
rude and insulting and haughty based on my beliefs?  I believe that when
you accuse, you are only putting yourself on display as all of the
above.

Second, yes, my primary concern is for my own, so what?  I have leasrned
the lesson that the nations of the world have so forcefully tried to
teach the Jews, again and again.  I am a good student and I think that
there is a lot that history can teach us as Jews.  Unfortunately, all
those who have had the guts to tell us the truth of the past have been
called "fascists, racists, etc."  remember, it was Jabotinsky that said
"Liquidate the Exile Before the Exile Liquidates You."  The general
Jewish leadership laughed and slandered him.  So be it.  Your family
heeded his call (ort at least that concept) and so they left.  Most Jews
did not, so we ahve to care about our own to call out loudly and clearly
that we must hear what the others have to say.  Jews too often like to
hear themselves intellectualize, that blocks out the sound of impending
doom.


Sorry, I have gone a bit overboard here, but it is just that it pains me
to see Jews quibble over the details while missing the grand message.
>
>>The only relevant fact is that nobody cares
>>about us (Jews) and it is only therefore up to us to look out for
>>ourselves.
>
>Well, you can feel sorry for yourself, or you can go out into the world


I
>and do something so that people will care about you -- as a human being.
>Many people do; many don't care whether you're Jewish.  Do you care
>whether others in need are Jewish?  Remember how you'r ecommanded to
>treat the stranger within your gates.


I do not feel sorry for myself, first of all, and stop telling me about
myself.  I don't think that it is my responsibility to make othet people
care about me and my people.  I do expect them to care about their own
people, however, and so I will do the same.  

Yes I do care whether others in need are Jewish as that is my first
priority.  Everyone has to choose something to get involved with, and so
i choose to get invol;ved in the preservation of my people.  You may
choose the spotted owl, that's your business, I do however, think that
Jews of all people can take a hiatus from worrying about the world's
problems since we have been doing it for so long.

>
>Roger

Nissan.