HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: proposed vote of confidence
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 05:29:16 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <78885@ut-emx.uucp>, lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Tom Lynch) writes:
> 
> 
> The issue has been raised that a/the modertor of soc.feminism has been
> inappropriately rejecting articles.  The responses have been wild and
> emotional.  To get directly to the point, I proposed that the issue be
> put to a biding vote of no confidence to see what people really
> thought, independent of any of the points made by the two with 'locked
> horns'.  This is the response:

I doubt you can make the vote binding, but I vote that the soc.feminism
moderators remain in place.

For the record:

I post regularly to soc.feminism on a variety of issues.
I have had posts approved by moderators in general, and by Muffy in particular.
I have had posts rejected by moderators in general, and by Muffy in particular.
I have had posts sent back for editing and subsequently approved by moderators
in general, and by Muffy in particular.

With few exceptions, I have agreed, in hindsight, with the moderators.  In
otherwords, I have found it fair.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Subject: Re: Unisex bathrooms
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 05:39:05 GMT

In article <1869i4INNra7@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
>
>muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
>
>>> I'm fairly certain men have 
>>> considerably larger bladders than women, and therefore the
>>> average man can take, if not a longer pee, then at least a 
>>> more voluminous one, than the average women.
>>
>> I'm not just talking about the time to physically empty the bladder.
>
>Fair enough.  If we assume that men and women have about the same
>total renal output, and further assume that neither gender
>pees with a greater rate of flow than the other, then men
>and women should be spending the same cumulative amount of
>time each day physically emptying their bladders.
>
>> [differential analysis of dressing/undressing deleted]
>
>I'll go along with this logic -- women need to take
>more time at this.  This, combined with what I hypothesize
>is a greater number of trips to the head each day for
>women than for men, would create a greater demand for
>women's facilities.
>
>In any case, my vote goes for unisex bathrooms.
>
>Steve

	I have a better solution:
		Remove all 'indecent exposure' laws against men.
	Then, you could just plant some trees and bushes around
	gasstations and buildings.  The men could just whip it out
	and urinate on the spot, without bothering with inconveniences
	like urinals.  Then, we could have 'bathrooms' which have
	only toilets and could be used by all genders without
	disrespect.
		Also, people could carry foldable shovels, and could
	dig holes and take dumps into them, then cover them up with
	the dirt from the hole.  Makes good fertilizer, helps
	the environment, no one is sexually discriminated against!

	So, For the green, the womyn, and the myn,
	Repeal all 'indecent exposure' laws!

			J. Wagner

P.S. The University of Chicago WISHES they could have my opinions, but until
they pay me they don't get nuthin.
From: csa09@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Paul Singleton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminism & Women's Studies
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:49:38 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <pxhn#5@lynx.unm.edu>, by gworrell@carina.unm.edu (Gayla M. Worrell):
> ...............................................................  I know it may
> be hard to understand, (and I don't mean this to be condescending, honest) but
> a women's studies class is an envioronment in which women feel safe to express
> their views regarding the society in which they have lived.  For many of them
> it is the first time they have ever felt safe to express these views.

Then it is a women's _therapy_ class, not a 'studies' class (unless the word
"studies" has lost something as it crossed the Atlantic :-)
----
  __   __    Paul Singleton (Mr)           JANET: paul@uk.ac.keele.cs
 |__) (__    Computer Science Dept.        other: paul@cs.keele.ac.uk
 |  .  __).  Keele University, Newcastle,    tel: +44 (0)782 621111 x7355
             Staffs ST5 5BG, ENGLAND         fax: +44 (0)782 713082
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Unisex bathrooms
Keywords: bathrooms
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:52:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep2.204503.29629@unislc.uucp> kbiesel@unislc.uucp (Karen Biesel) writes:
>I can think of a few times when I wouldn't want a unisex bathroom - like
>when my period surprises me, for one.
>
>But to make bathrooms equal (I hate waiting in lines, and if there are
>more women in line than toilets, I use the mens)  we could  base public
>bathroom designs on statistics.
>
>Since it takes women approximately 1.32 seconds to pee, and men
>approximately 30 seconds, why not just put 3 times as many toilets in the
>womens room than the mens?

Where do you get these numbers? 

BTW, this is not "equal" by any measure that I know of. And this is one
reason why I think strict equal treatment will not work. If you want
equal treatment, then the number of bathroom fixtrues should be about the
same. If you want equal utilization, the womans room will require 
more fixtures, and more floor space and plumbing, etc...
 
>Theory 1.
>Because men (for the most part) do the designing and building, and don't
>think about it. 
>
>Theory 2.
>?
>
>Most mens rooms have 2 urinals and one toilet, which can service 360 men
>an hour - OK, say 200).
>Most womens rooms have two toilets.  This will service 90 women an hour -
>OK, say 50.

And if women use the toilet(s) in the mens room, the numbers there will
be much lower. But given your numbers for pee times, I would expect
about 22 times as many women per hour to be able to use the womans
room as men could use the mens room. Or did you forget a smiley?
 
>Get the point  8-).  

And then there is a matter of privacy. Men using the urinals have a bit
more exposed than women using a toilet. Get the point :^)

>By at least putting the urinals behind a door, women can use the mens room,
>if necessary, and it would be less embarassing to all involved.

Have you never seen a mens bathroom where one wall is a continuous
porcelain urinal? Also, this makes getting in and out very inconvient,
and possibly dangerous if the door has sharp edges. Is there some problem
with keeping a mens room usable for men as well?
 
>Karen Biesel

Rich

payner@netcom.com


 
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mec6@quads.uchicago.edu (Rini Clarkberg)
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Reply-To: mec6@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:39:24 GMT

mackenzi@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Paul Mackenzie) writes:
>
>Has anyone had any experience with blatant sexism?  
>
>I guess I'm either blind or lucky.  If the former, please open my eyes.

Well, okay, I'll bite.  

I guess the worst sexism I have ever experienced was in my eighth
grade "Advanced Science" class.  The class was always divided into
"the girls" and "the boys".  For one semester, the class project was
to set up a small radio station.  "The boys" got all the equipment,
did all the wiring, and god knows what else (I really don't know, 
because I wasn't there).  "The girls" made signs with pretty markers
to advertise our endeavor.  We cleaned out the old closet (sweeping, 
dusting, rearranging all those silly wires) that was the home to the
new radio station.  We ran errands around the school.  We fluffed the 
cheerleaders' pom-poms (no joke here -- his girlfriend was the 
cheerleading coach). 

I was so darn irritated by this whole thing, but you know it took
me years to see that it was *sexism* behind it.  I just thought he
was picking on *me*.  (Kids can be dumb.)  I never complained.

My brother had the same teacher, two years before, and learned an
enormous amount from the man.  He was, to some, a very good teacher.
And it's a damn shame that I didn't catch any of it.

rini
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: slarsen@beethoven.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen)
Subject: Sexism: Defined
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:39:41 GMT

I've been seeing here various incidents involving various 
characters, said incidents and characters being described 
as "sexist".

I am curious as to how people define the term "sexist", as 
it is used both as a noun and adjective.  What I am looking
for here is not a dictionary definition but what folks 
believe sexism to be.

Sue Larsen
slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: kbiesel@unislc.uucp (Karen Biesel)
Subject: Unisex bathrooms
Summary: Unisex bathrooms
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:45:03 GMT
Keywords: bathrooms

I can think of a few times when I wouldn't want a unisex bathroom - like
when my period surprises me, for one.

But to make bathrooms equal (I hate waiting in lines, and if there are
more women in line than toilets, I use the mens)  we could  base public
bathroom designs on statistics.

Since it takes women approximately 1.32 seconds to pee, and men
approximately 30 seconds, why not just put 3 times as many toilets in the
womens room than the mens?

Theory 1.
Because men (for the most part) do the designing and building, and don't
think about it. 

Theory 2.
?

Most mens rooms have 2 urinals and one toilet, which can service 360 men
an hour - OK, say 200).
Most womens rooms have two toilets.  This will service 90 women an hour -
OK, say 50.

Get the point  8-).  

By at least putting the urinals behind a door, women can use the mens room,
if necessary, and it would be less embarassing to all involved.

Karen Biesel
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: The trashing of alt.feminism
Date: 2 Sep 92 10:13:43
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<MUFFY.92Sep1152109@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<5372@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: abbst@vms.cis.pitt.edu's message of 2 Sep 92 17:38:12 GMT

In article <5372@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> abbst@vms.cis.pitt.edu writes:


[A demonstration of how much he really really wants to keep flaming out
of alt.feminism.]

> Go get it yourself.  I'm not your mother. *snort*

And thank God (or whatever) for that.  My mother isn't a hypocrite.
Next time you ask someone to stop flaming, how about if you set a good
example yourself?  Or is it that you simply want *me* to stop defending
myself, but let everyone else continue to attack, including yourself?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: jlinder@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jeffrey S Linder)
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:58:28 GMT

Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me .ME. ME. MEEEEEEE.


Jeff.
>
>--
>Scott Probst: Brain and Behaviour Laboratory, Psychology dept, SFU
>              Graduate Issues Officer, Simon Fraser Student Society.
>e-mail: probst@fraser.sfu.ca - ph: (604) 291 3354/3181 - fax: (604) 291 5843
>              "yes, well, and here we go again..." - Dr H. S. Thompson
From: marchany@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Randy Marchany)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: PHD program in Women's Studies
Date: 31 Aug 92 01:16:32 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA

My girlfriend is interested in pursuing her PHD in, for lack of a
more specific term, Women's Studies. She is interested in researching
the trends of women's professional careers in journalism and/or
politics. I know that U. of Maryland has a program but she would like to
know what schools have PHD programs along these lines. Any info is
appreciated. Please send the info to:

	marchany@vtserf.cc.vt.edu

Thanks in advance.
	-Randy Marchany

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 04:23:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <LYNCH.92Sep1203636@flubber.cc.utexas.edu> lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Tom Lynch) writes:


Say, this mudslinging has absolutely -nothing- to do with the alt group,
and it keeps growing beyond my kill file.

It is inappropriate for this group, and I could care less.

Take it to EMAIL, where it belongs. 


Rich

payner@netcom.com
From: csa09@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Paul Singleton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: equality
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:29:57 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <26AUG199213531937@vx9000.weber.edu>, by kkidman@vx9000.weber.edu (Kent Kidman):

> I am talking about evolution here.  Usually small improvements are made in
> times and distances every year.  It is unusual to see a record really wiped
> out.  The women of today are beating the times of the best men in the world of
> 30 years ago. Women are improving at a faster rate than men are in many cases.

Classical evolution doesn't happen in 30 years (30,000 maybe), if it happens
at all in modern societies.

Also bear in mind that improvements in performance of the most outstanding
athletes in some group don't necessarily reflect changes in the whole
distribution of abilities.  Olympic champions occupy the statistically
insignificant upper tail end of a distribution about which we probably don't
know very much (for all I know, average long-jumping ability is falling).

PaulS
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: tyger@netcom.com (Kitty in the Middle)
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 00:51:55 GMT
Organization:  The following is all GERG'S fault!  

Okay, now that I've managed to crawl out from under the pile of mail asking
for the article in Redbook, here goes:

Animal Testing: Still an Issue?

Marcia Menter

The good news: Fewer animals are being used to safety-test cosmetics. According
to a recent industry report, the number of rabbits undergoing the painful
Draize eye-irritancy test decreased by 78% in the 80's; the number of animals
used in all other tests fell 73%. What's made th reduction possible: the 
development of alternative tests that don't require live animals. Some major 
companies (including Estee Lauder, Revlon, Dial, Avon, and Neutrogena) have 
ceased animal testing altogether within the past three years.

Animals are still being used, however, in the finals stages of testing some
cosmetics: "If a product contains an ingredient that has never been used on
humans, the only reliable way to prove it's safety is to test it on live 
animals," says Stephen P. Gettings, Ph.D., director of toxicology for the 
Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrance Association. Alternatives to such tests are
being sought, but it may be years before acceptable ones are found.

Well, there it is...enjoy!

   Tyger
-- 
      Kristen Kohlbecker    And I would choose to be with you
      tyger@netcom.com      That's if the choice were mine to make   
                            But you can make decisions too
      A Tyger and a Lady    And you can have this heart to break
From: muller@noao.edu (Beatrice Muller)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Date: 2 Sep 92 18:29:16 GMT
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA

In article <4vkn37j.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.155336.10701@javelin.sim.es.com> biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
>>aaron@minster.york.ac.uk writes:
>>
>>>	Or Einstein's wife who formulated much of the mathematics for the
>>>	theories of relativity but whose contribution remains largely
>>>	unrecognised. (She is still so unknown that I have to appologise
>>>	and admit I can't remember her name)
>>
>>That's the first time I've heard this. Do you have any sources on this
>>remarkable assertion? I'd really like to look it up.
>
>I find this curious as well. But I have heard that Einstein was not a
>great mathematcian. 
> 

Her name is Mileva Maric and there are quite a few books out about that
topic.

Beatrice
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: dpugmire%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (David Pugmire)
Subject: Re: ERA question
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:04:02 MDT
Organization: University of Utah
Distribution: usa

carol writes:

>I was reading a British newspaper, Financial Times, today that describes in
>*Conservative, ultra-right, fundamentalist* terms what the ERA says.  They 
>quote Reverend Pat Robertson:
>         "The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women.  It is about
>a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave 
>their husbands, kill their children, practise witchcraft, destroy capitalism, 
>and become lesbians."

>What a sad commentary this is on how some people view the ERA and the feminist 
>movement as a whole.  And really, really scary, too.  I don't want to ramble, 
>though, or I'll be talking stuff that belongs in the alt.politics newsgroups.


This past fall quarter I had a Women's Studies class.  I took it because
I wanted to understand what the movement was all about ( and I needed a
humanities credit to graduate).  A good deal of the course I agreed with, 
equality etc.  BUT, there was also a great deal of course material and 
discussion in favor of the things in the Pat Robertson quote.
I can't remember how many times they slammed conservatives, and talked of
increasing social programs.  With their desire for more government aid, I
find it hard to beleive they aren't socialists.
Although no one came out and said it directly, it was easy sense the light
in which they see homemakers.  Mormon church leaders who gave talks on the 
value of motherhood were a target of their jokes, and ridicule.  Some of the
school newspaper's feminist writters have attacked church leaders on the same point.
To a certain degree I agree with Pat.  In my experience, it's what I experienced.

dave.
From: starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (aaron greenwood)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: What is Wrong with this picture?????
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:02:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: galaxy.22204
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: University of California, Riverside

In article twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:

>Well, I can. 
>The anti-feminist right hates women and has contempt for men. 
>The radical feminists have contempt and hatred for both men and women. 
>I'm a feminist, and I respect men and women and expect better of both 
>of them. 

On alt.feminism a new term was introduced that was coined in finland.
It does not have the negitive associations that anti-feminist has.  That
term is post-feminist.  Being anti-feminist but not anti-women many of
us are stuck with a term that is used by the far right, fundemental religions,
and others.  But being associated by misunderstanding is much better than
not taking a stand agianst radical feminism.

I agonize for a very long time before becomming an anti-feminist.  It was not
an easy think to do.  Having supported women's rights politically and 
more importantly by actions I had a moral dilemma on my hands.

When I came to that crossroads I was able to make that choice once I saw
that their was a difference between what modern feminism had become and
women's issues. 

You won't see a post from mr where I profess any argument that places 
restictions on women and their choices.  I applaud women on their successes 
unlike feminists who ignor the successes of women in favor of vitimization.  
The have taken the sexist notion that women are weak and cannot protect 
themselves and just changed the context.  Where in the past they defined 
themselves as women they now define themselfes as victims of men.  They define 
themselves in terms of men.

Where you respect both men and women and expect better of the both I am
in complete agreement.  But that is not an attitude that is of feminist
origin.

starbuck

Life is deeper than feminist thought.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: clavazzi@nux.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Proposed Massachusetts legislation H.5194 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:15:31 GMT

Well, here we go again.....

In article <q_bna4l.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.141305.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>>In article <6y=nxng.payner@netcom.com>, payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>> And then these bills will be passed, and it will be an offense
>>> (legally) to women everywhere that one is male. An offense punishable
>>> to who knows what extent. Most of these things remind me of communism.
>>> Whatever may have happened is not important, it is what this means
>>> as seen by the communist party, or in this case, the feminist party.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> I see a similarity in the idealism, and the way it is being expressed.
>>
>>Dworkin-Mackinnon laws have yet to be upheld in courts.
>
>OK, I guess that we can ignore them then.
>
	He never said that.  The point was that your claim that "these bills
will be passed, and it will be an offense...that one is male" was hyperbolic,
to say the least.  Personally, I think it's pretty reprehensible for The State
to stick its nose into our libraries, record/tape/CD/video collections, and
bedrooms; but the "idealism" that supports that isn't "communist", it's just
plain Statist.  In fact, the segment of the population in this country that
most enthusiastically supports this kind of thing is the religious right, which
is generally about as anti-feminist as you can get, judging from the spew that
came out of the Republican convention last week.
	BTW, the highlighted line above still looks like an attempt to
insinuate some connection between femninism and communism.  If not, please
clarify what you mean by "similarity in idealism".
>>-- 
>>Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
>>HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
>>HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
>>                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
>
>Rich
>payner@netcom.com

The_Doge
ObQuote:	"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of
		person I preach to!" -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, Dallas, 1957