HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: B.S. forms a synapse
Date: 22 Aug 92 15:56:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug22.155631.26198
Organization: insert anything here

bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

	[Other attributions not available because B.S. is too lazy
	 to put them in and/or doesn't care about net.courtesy]

>The drag queens who fought the cops did not see their rights and
>treatment improve because they dressed in drag.  

>They saw their rights and treatment improve because they stood up to the 
>bastards and didn't back down.  You can do that in drag, blue jeans, a
>pin-stripe suit, or stark fucking naked.  The deciding factor wasn't
>the clothing, but the decision to say, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not
>going to take it anymore".  As soon as they started doing that, things
>changed.

	In other words, folks - he just argued himself out:  read his
e-lips:  the major point for getting your rights is standing up to those
who oppress you and not who you self-express.

	Thanks Bob - I'm glad to see you finally got the point.

	The "force" thing you talk about afterwards is fallacious.
Rights aren't "bestowed", they are claimed.  We don't "let" the mainstream
say 'oh --- look at all the *nice* non-threatening faggots --- we think
we'll let you live...', we say 'We're equal to you and we will be treated
as such.'

	Now go home.  Aren't you afraid of getting too much exposure
here?  I mean a lot of strayt people read soc.motss and some of them
might blow your but-I'm-too-straight-looking-for-anyone-to-suspect
cover?

BBC, who 
looks VERY 
stereotypical
for a BBC and
that's about it
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: gay liberation
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 09:40:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.100219.27521@macc.wisc.edu>
    anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>People in need take what they can get.  Whether it's better
>than nothing is a judgment that has to be deferred until
>such time as they have more information.  A start is better
>than no start.

   Agreed, wholeheartedly.  And while it may seem a little sad that
Nelson had to find _that_ particular book, I'd like to point out sadly
that my first exposures to motss sex were in the pages of Penthouse
Variations, often illustrated as furtive and desperate connections
between heterosexual men, often portrayed in drunken states.

   The one I most treasured (back when I was sixteen-seventeen or so)
labled most inaccurately as "Bisexuality" (bullshit... this story was
about SF bathhouses in '81-'82) was a scene between the narrator and a
"burly guy" who was later revealed to be, in his "real life" a cop.
Regardless of the fantasy material there, there was one thing that
bothered me.  Still and all through this story, there was that
sentence, repeated over and over... "I don't kiss."

   I think I _asked_ that, in one of my first posts to soc.motss two
years ago: "Do gay men ever kiss each other?"  Geez... I even think it
was Rob who handed my head to me.  *Sigh*.

         Elf !!!
-- 
Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: posting from dino
Date: 20 Aug 92 05:22:27 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

Dean Allemang:

[ great account of j/o party ]

>why most people were there - because they like to watch or
>be watched.  Jose' and I got quite an audience (as did Hans and
>I).

Since this was a j/o party, it is unfortunate that their names were not
"Hands" and "Manuel".

Completely unrelated: Steve Dyer gave the best analogy of the Usenet I have
ever read, that being one of an electronic cocktail party.  I really enjoyed
reading it.  However, now I am concerned: who among us is a postaholic?
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

i'm your girl            friend
i'm your squirrel        friend
i'm your round the world friend

cruising: vidi, vici, veni.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: dilution (was Re: Sarcasm)
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:18:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug20.011806.26114
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <14600@borg.cs.unc.edu> harris@currituck.cs.unc.edu (Trey Harris) writes:
>>Let's use some little-used character; say like ~  (Now what's that called?)
>It's called a "tilde." 

no it's not, it's called a twiddle.

And a # is an octothorpe.

Wait, didn't we have this conversation already?

ObMotss - I'm listening to Negativland's "The Weatherman" right now, a
tape of their Over The Edge show. "I've come out of the closet, and
I'm a homosexual. I've come out on the dumb stupid come out line [I
hope he doesn't pretend to speak for all homosexuals]. That's another
thing, it's homo-sexual. Not homa. I hate it when people say
homasexual. [consumption is being standardized]. [your father and me
go back a long ways]."

Anyone know if the guy who does The Weatherman is actually gay?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/   You're free, so anything could happen, so happy birthday
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: CFD, Gregg Strom
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:54:51 GMT

I apologize to Jojo for having originally sent this out with his name.
It was supposed to be cancelled.

This is an official Call For Dish on a man named Gregg Strom. he
advertizes in different publications like the Advocate et al, offering
photographs, videos and 'private sessions.' He used to live in LA until
a couple o' months ago.  I need info on him.

I won't disclose my reasons (*), and all e-mail will be treated with
utmost confidentiality.

Thanks.
						FJ!! (please people,
						don't let me down? One
						of you must know
						something?)


(*) ...yet. But don't worry dahlings, this story I'm not keeping to
myself. I'll even post earlier if I get something good.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: The Claytoon on the Couch (was Re: Stereotyping)
Keywords: spokespersons, alternative lifestyes, poor
Reply-To: shore@tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:29:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.150249.13123@tc.cornell.edu>, shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
> Well, as usual the little moron got some facts wrong. 

Gads!  I just reread this and noticed that, as usual, I'm
not being clear about who I'm referring to.  "The little
moron" is the idjit from Ingres.  
-- 
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re:
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:20:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.185004.9890@microsoft.com>
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)

>What are you doing?
>Defending bizarre practices by calling them freedom of expression,
>and then mysteriously wondering why gays are still oppressed.
>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this shit out, Elf.

   Obviously it does (having been a professional rocket scientist once,
a long time ago).  To your average heterosexual on the street, a man
kissing another man IS a "bizarre practice."

   Bob, you are a member of a large and diverse group of people who for
one reason or another identify themselves as "homosexual."  You are
part of a group that has spent the last couple of centuries being
repressed for a key element of their _identity_.  Now you propose to
take this group, divide it up, and repress part of it over an issue of
_identity_.

   Don't you think the human race has had enough of this shit?

   Think of it as evolution in action.

>Then you have decoupled the linkage between cause and effect.  You say
>you take responsibility for your actions, and then fail to acknowledge
> how your actions can impact others.

   Okay, you want me to say it?

   Bob... _your_ normal, masculine, closetted homosexuals mean nothing
to me.  Compared to the most nelly, most queeny, most limp wristed
out-and-about queer, you and yours aren't worth my time.


>>   COWARD.

>Elf, I have posted several responses to all the charges, complaints,
>whines, and half-truths you have flung.  Until you get off your ass and 
>either put up or shut up about what I wrote, you'd better hang onto the
>"coward" logo.  As someone who can't look truth in the eye, it somehow
>fits you better.

   *Laugh*.  Chicken Soup Brigade, S.T.A.R. Program, C-Space, MayDay,
NWAF... I've put in my time.  I talk, and I _walk_ Bob.  I'm accusing
you of defending people's right to sit in a closet.  You can live with
your "Fear of a Queer planet" all you want, dude.  Some of us, however,
are scratching the surface until our nails bleed to make it safe for me
(and for you) to hold the hand of the man you love in public.

   Put up, or shut up, Bob.

         Elf !!!
-- 
Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:21:18 GMT

Bob Sarver (bobsarv@microsoft.com) wrote:
> (feminine gay name)
> should have been:
> "name of a feminine gay"
----------
No!  Should have been:  "name of a fem. gay".
Keep on using those abbrevs. to sv bndwdth!  
Mk Drytn
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:32:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug16.153253.2613
Organization: insert anything here

timmy_b@cowpas.waffle.atl.ga.us (Tim Barnes) writes:
>elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
>>    Wear the symbols in combination.  Wear them in jarringly incongruous
>> situations.  For a while it was very popular for "pro-lifers" to wear a

>I just noticed tonight that International Male is selling Freedom Rings
>in their catalog.  

	Oh Christ.

	That's all we need - more co-opting of symbols of gay pride, etc.
as *fashion statements* and *fashion accessories*...

	And of course this will be lapped up too.  It's no NICE when
companies can capitalize on such things and make a profit.  Amerika:
the home of the enterpreneur.

	I suppose asking everyone to call IM and demand that the
profits from the freedom ring sales go to a non-profit gay organziation
is too much to ask, huh?

	On the other shoe, though, something just occurred to me:
what would it take for some homophobic organzation to trademark and/or
otherwise copyright the pink triangle or the rainbow flag?  Is it
logistically possible?  Certainly were someone to start using the
stylized "M" that McDonalds uses they'd be sued, ditto for other 
corporate logos.  How are our symbols protected from corporate molestation?

BBC
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lhartman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lori L Hartman)
Subject: Rob B.
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:35:08 GMT

I read this morning about the death of Rob B.  I never knew Rob personally, and
my contact with him was very limited.  I think we exchanged a few e-mail 
messages awhile back, and those, I think, happened to be centered around 
differences of opinion.

I feel saddened and am somewhat at a loss of what to say or do.  Just know,
Rob, my thoughts are with you and your family and friends.  Peace be yours.

Lori
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Portland Ho!
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:04:10 GMT

  Todd and I are going to be back in Portland again on August 29th.
Todd arrives at the airport on Saturday morning, and I shall be driving
from Bend earlier. We were thinking of going back to Rooster Rock that 
day if any of the Portland Motssuers are interested in going. I am 
going to be (hopefully) leaving this Saturday or Sunday but if I don't
get a chance to read my email, leave a message on our answering machine
at (714) 855 1653.
  I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Rob Bernardo
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:09:03 GMT

Rob,

Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.  You are
not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever.
From: foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye)
Subject: Re: Just please shoot me : )
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 00:56:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug13.123147.27162@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug13.120043.27426@news.Hawaii.Edu>
>>>3) Burlington, Vermont (another IBM RISC house)
>
>>Never been to Boise or Rochester, but Burlington ain't too bad.  Kind
>>of a miniature Madison, Wisconsin.  You are 2 hours from Montreal and
>>3 hours from Boston by car.  (Montreal has a fantastic gay club
>>scene.)  
>
>>There is a gay bar in Burlington (Pearl's), and three colleges
>>(including UVM), which make it into a fairly liberal college town.
>>Bernie Sanders used to be mayor there.  Vermont has a gay-rights law.
>
I wholeheartedly agree. Burlington was a relative urban salvation
during those summers I spent in St Albans on a relative's farm.
Except for the mosquitos and black flies which swarm in the summer,
it seems like a nice place.

-- 
Howard Arthur Faye * Panglossian Acres * Box 7 * Littlerock, CA   93543
                         Fax: 805.944.5958
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:35:50 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <l951qdINN4ec@mizar.usc.edu>,
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes, of the vile-Sarver:
> He's started to send me 100-200 page letters in which he
> repeats and repeats

in your ear?

> I think Jess's suggestion for how to handle this is a good
> one.

Yes, let's use our mentality.

> Anyone care to start the ball rolling?

Er, what was the question again?

[*Trying* to wake up to reality,
but this sort of view makes me stop
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"pooter, n. an entomological collecting bottle into which small
arthropods are introduced by suction." -- Chambers English Dictionary
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Introduction
Date: 17 Aug 1992 22:05:34 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

Oh, for god's sake.

In article <1992Aug18.041053.26226@wam.umd.edu> 
lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Lovegod) writes:
>Life is fragile and precious.

Yes, it is.

>Take the time and really look at the people around you.  Assholes and saints 
>alike.  Do you see some of yourself in both?  

Of course I do.

>                                                Haven't you ever had a good  
> friend who wasn't at the start?  Have you ever felt like you have nowhere 
> else to go?

Um, I'm not sure what the first question means.  The second?  Sure.

> I thought soc.motss was in one of its facets a gathering place of ideas and  
> people who share something in common.

Did someone say it wasn't?

> Life is such an adventure.  There are all sorts of people to meet, know, and
>love.  Those twenty-five years old friendships don't just pop up  
>indiscriminately ... 

Yes, life is an adventure.  And yes, the world is filled with all 
sorts of people.  Am I expected to fall in love with everyone?
Am I expected to like everyone?  Why?  And I do happen to have
a couple of *24* year old friendships -- I met my friends David and
Andy in September 1968.  And if you think I'm a bitch, you should
try spending an evening with Andy sometime.

>                  they are the culmination of first getting to know a person
>and then years of bullshit, hurt, fun, anxiety, trust, and love.  They don't 
>just happen.  

No, and I don't think I really implied that friendhsips just happen.

>     The only way the problems of the world will cease to exist is if
> we all try to be a little more friendly, share a little more love, and 
> have a little bit more understanding of one another.

Ah, you're an optimist, I see.  There are lots of people I'm not
at all interested in being friendly to, sharing love with, trying
to understand.  As long as they stay out of my way, I'll stay out
of theirs and everyone will be happy.

> Think of the reasons you omit people from your personal, private circle.

It's usually because they're assholes.  Or morons.  Or both.

> You never know who made need something you have to give.  Will you 
> give it freely or grudgingly?

It all depends.

> Arne is right.  The choice is yours.  For the rest of your life ...

???

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@tandon.com (Tom Barrett)
Subject: Re: Gay scene in Boise?
Organization: Tandon Corporation, Moorpark, CA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:23:57 GMT

In article <32590337@hpmwetg.sr.hp.com> pwf2@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Joe Ballantyne) writes:
>
>A friend of mine is considering the possibility of a company transfer to
>Boise, Idaho; she doesn't have access to notes (except to read my machine),
>so I would like to solicit information on the gay scene in that area of the
>country (if there is any!).  Much of what I've heard indicates a high degree
>of conservatism; what's the scoop?  Many thanks.
>

Oh you must be talking about my "someone just shoot me" thread?
:)

HP in Boise does have some job oppurtunities, but after
looking at all of my guides and hearing back from a few
people, it is not a very good place to live (relatively
speaking). Of course, if she is from someplace like (Oh)
Rochester, MN, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad :)
 
-- 
Tom Barrett (TDBear)    tdbear@tandon.com                 voice 805-378-6207
Tandon Corporation      tdbear@p6.f1006.n102.z1.fidonet.org fax 805-529-8895
Sr. HW Design Engineer  "War is Peace, No is Yes, And We're All Free!" 
[The views expressed herein may not be shared by the organization of origin]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Sexual attraction
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:30:56 GMT

twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Serious question, anyway;
>if you and Larry Stratton made similar borderline-hostile statements,
>I'd probably judge yours to be more aggressive, but the same rule

	Moi?  Not aggressive?

	Tell that to my Student loan people... :-)

	I get your meaning though... :-)

BBC, the meek bearcub


(NOT!)

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Reply-To: shore@tc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:57:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.005350.4551@microsoft.com>, bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
> 1.  T/F  Members of an oppressed minority group who willingly act 
>          out negative stereotypes advance the cause of their group's 
>          acceptance in society.

I'm always fascinated by those who think that acceptance
has something to do with rights.  Be that as it may, I'd 
like Boob to describe for us who gets to decide what a 
'negative' stereotype is.  I'd say that self-hating homos
who would sell out other gay and lesbian people at the
drop of a dime is a pretty negative stereotype, wouldn't
you?  And yet they keep at it.  Sigh.
-- 
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Gay Homophobia & Allan Williams
Date: 22 Aug 92 02:58:00 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.




(vanyel)
/We don't
/ostracize people because they don't fit into our little model of the
/universe, and then turn around and justify that ostracizing with the basic
/idea of "they didn't act the `right way.'"

Funny; the ostracism for the original poster ("Too straight looking
to be gay") pretty much makes a liar out of you, Al.



(me)
>I also note that you skipped over the point I made:  their normality
>made them great role models and spokespeople.  And made them
>*real* to the average American.  

(vanyel)
/I think *you* missed a point: That what made them great role models is that
/they made it clear you *can* be happy despite the chains heterosexual
s/ociety puts on you.  


I think you are dead wrong.  Lt. Col Kammemyer spoke on a local TV
talk show here in Seattle (KOMO 4, "Town Meeting").  She was brilliant.
There were folks from the OCA and the Wash. State Rep. party there
to heckle her and oppose her.  She ate them for breakfast.  Cool,
calm, & collected, she presented her case and the audience was so
impressed they began booing the OCA whenever one of their little
stormtroopers stood up to say something.

Somehow I can't imagine the same thing happening with a drag queen
with red feathers and a tiara.  The audience would be so focused
on the clothing and the affected mannerisms that anything of value
that was said would be forgotten; it would be too distracting.

Why is that so hard for you to swallow?



(me)
>On the other hand, if the goal is strutting like a bunch of chorus girls
>and fighting for an audience, I guess they're pretty effective . . .

(vanyel)
/You've got a lot of nerve to say that.  

Yes, I do.  It takes guts to look someone in the eye and tell them
that if they don't stop doing [action X], their own cause will
suffer for it.  It takes a lot of guts to buck the mainstream 
politically fashionable thinking.



(vanyel)
/If you weren't so busy preening
/your own feathers as a "model of normalcy" and fighting for what's *really*
/important--the acceptance of *everyone* on their individual merits--maybe
/you wouldn't feel so threatened by the possibility that you might get
/grouped with a bunch of so-called "undesirables."

Oh, horseshit, Al.  I am not a model for anyone.
From: futor@llnl.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:40:06 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.
Originator: futor@diego.llnl.gov

I was a New Mexico Democrat for a long time before I moved out
to California & decided that Decline To State was the party that
got the least junk mail, so I realize I'm very biased when I see
this Subject: line . . .

 shore@tc.cornell.edu writes:
>
> This morning on the "Today" show . . .
>
>I find it absolutely astonishing that any gay, lesbian,
>or bisexual person could even consider being a member of
>the Republican Party.  The party has taken an unequivocal
>stand against equal rights for all

I stopped you there, Melinda, because the truth of the matter
was best underscored thereby.

-- 
__
\/  -+-  randy  -+-  all generalizations are flawed  -+-  futor@llnl.gov  -+-
Newsgroups: soc.motss