From: James_J_Kowalczyk@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: sci.chem
Subject: Re: 1,4-dichloro-2-butyne
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 09:47:39 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <2ab0de6cwnr070@ark.abg.sub.org>

>aankrom@nyx.cs.du.edu (Anthony Ankrom) writes:
>In article <1992Sep08.185248.24528@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
> (Howard Black) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep5.221205.17139@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> aankrom@nyx.cs.du
> edu (Anthony Ankrom) writes:
>>
>>    [in response to someone's noting that the stuff is commercially
>>available, and pretty inexpensive]
>>
>>> Perhaps I WANT to synthesize it... Really. I also forgot to mention the
>>>fact that I want to use acetylene as the starting material. I am well
>>>aware of the fact that Aldrich and Chemical Dynamics both sell it as I'm
>>>sure most other suppliers do, but I have my min dset on synthesizing it
>>>myself. Forgive me for actually LIKING organic chemistry...
>>
>>    I'm curious as to why you are not only determined to make it, but to
>>make it from a predetermined starting material.  Sounds more like you're
>>doing a problem from the back of some org. chem. text. The synthesis from
>>acetylene is obvious, but I'm sure you can find references in the
>>Dictionary of Organic Compounds or some other such general reference work.
>>
>>    Your last comment is defensive and a non sequitur, IMHO.  I like
>>organic chemistry so much that I made a career out of it, but generally
>>don't make compounds that I can buy cheaply, and I don't respond to others'
>>suggestions on suppliers with comments such as yours.
>>-- 
>>   ******************************************************************
>>     Howard Black                             cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
>>     Department of Chemistry                  Eastern Illinois Univ. 
>
>...[stuff deleted]
>
> Anyway, I have a little knowledge about alkyne chemistry. My old Fieser &
>Fieser text (1949! Sheesh! No no. I'm only 19...) has a rather adequate
>section on it and I can probably find it through Chemical Abstracts if I
>wanted to dig through those god-awful indices. I lost my Fieser text, but
>if I remember correctly, what I want to do would involve preparing
>disodium acetylide, probably. To make the diol might involve some sort of
>Grignard reaction. I wondered if anyone could give me particulars or at
>least references.
> My whole interest in this compound stemmed from my interest in
>neurochemistry. 1,4-dichloro but-2-yne is a precursor in the synthesis of
>Tremorine (bis-pyrrolidino but-2-yne), a substance used to induce
>temporary Parkonsonian symptoms. I found this compound very interesting
>and decided that it might be a fun exercise to synthesize the whole mess
>from very simple starting materials, like that big bottle of carbide in my
>basement.
>
>St. Anthony

It is very likely that all readers of sci.chem love chemistry, but 
loving chemistry and desiring to carry out * very dangerous* experiments
in one's basement are two different things.  I fail to see how synthesizing
a neurotoxin in one's basement from questionable starting materials
will accomplish anything except perhaps to provide the experimenter with
an illicit compound which he could not otherwise obtain?
How does this further the experimenter's knowledge of chemistry?

Perhaps because you are young you do not realize how crazy your 
plan sounds?  The free flow of information is very important to the
scientific process, and all of the information you need to prepare
"bis-pyrrolidino but-2-yne" can be found in the chemical literature.
However, I think that for a chemist to give you this information 
in a public forum such as sci.chem would be risking becoming an
accessory to your experiments.


aankrom@nyx.cs.du.edu (Anthony Ankrom) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.123351.356@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> tony2@prefect.
>  ucp (21131-gozdz) writes:
>>Forgive my bluntness, but your postings indicate that
>>you may already represent a clinical case. That's why other
>>netters are reluctant to help you in your explorations
>>into neurochemistry. If you are so interested in research, 
>>use scientific methodology - go to the library.
>>
>>Tony
>
> Hmmm... I seem to be getting off on the wrong foot. I suppose you
>wouldn't understand the experimental usefulness that temporary
>Parkonsonian symptoms would provide. I suppose my posts might come off as
>some reckless kid doing anything for a larf. This continuing attitude to
>my posts is very disconcerting. I had assumed that I could use this group
>as an adjunct to my library search, perhaps to make the paper chase a
>little shorter, but I continually get rebuffed. How many of you have
>interest in explosives? How many of you subscribe to rec.pyrotechnics?
>My interests are no more or no less dangerous than this area. I am very
>cautious in my experimentation, as I have yet to aquire the lab experience
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that I desire. My expectations for this group have gone unmet. So I
>officially sign-off of this group and am submitting my proposal for
>sci.chem.organic and I will make it very clear in my charter that ANYTHING
>goes in discussion and no information is "forbidden fruit". 
> I now continue my task of digging through myriad journals unaided by
>technology. (At least not at this end.)

Perhaps you should consider gaining some lab experience somewhere that
you could have some supervision?  Like perhaps a laboratory?  Put your
enthusiasm to some use.  I am sure that some professor would let you
work for him/her.

By the way, "anything" does "go" in sci.chem.  There is no moderator (yet).
However, this group was not really intended to supplant the normal
literature searching aspect of research.  Anyone who has access to a lab
and chemicals should also have access to a library.

aankrom@nyx.cs.du.edu (Anthony Ankrom) writes:
>
> A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, but ignorance is deadly...
>
>St. Anthony

Yes, a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing, and indeed, 
ignorance is not a good thing.  However, I fail to see the relevance
to this news group.  As I stated above, all of the information you need
to conduct your synthesis is in the literature.  All you have to do is
go look for it.  If a graduate student in chemistry had asked the same
question that you did, I would tell him/her the same thing:  go look it
up.  I am not about to give someone suggestions off the top of my head
that might cause an explosion, or worse.

Jim Kowalczyk, Ph.D.                 James_J_Kowalczyk@cup.portal.com
Senior Research Chemist
Eisai Research Institute
Andover, MA  01810
Newsgroups: sci.chem