From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: re: TKD (was re: Which Styles)
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 14:42:19 GMT

Shiv Swarup Pathak <sp3u+@andrew.cmu.edu> says:

>Marty@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes:

>>TKD is an influence of Chinese and Japanese culture, though mainly
>>japanese from the times of the occupation.  It seems modernized because it
>>is quite modernized (i.e developed in this century).  I'm sure a TKD
>>student here could fill you up here a little better.  As for it's
>>effectiveness, I can go by the many TKD I've sparred and worked with,
>>and personally I don't see the hand techniques or punches as being
>>that effective, and unless you are 5'4" or below, alot of the kicks are
>>easily telegraphed.  Now again, this is by personal experience with
>>TKD people from Korea and local.
  
>   I don't post to this bulletin board too often, but now I feel I must.
> I bet you knew this was bound to happen.  I understand that it is just
>from your personal experience which makes you say that TKD practitioners
>are not particularly effective fighters.  I DON'T practice TKD, so I can
>consider myself to be rather impartial on the subject.  

Nowhere did I say they weren't effective.  All I did was pointing out
some things that I saw that didn't work against me and areas I think
that could be improved upon compared to some of the other styles I've
worked with.


>Perhaps you sparred "tournament fighters."  These "fighters" use
>speed instead of power for the purpose of gaining points, not fighting
>realistically.  By NO means are all TDK students trained to be
>tournament fighters (although this is often the case).  I have studied
>Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) for over about seven years and I have sparred
>with many TKD stylists.  

Nope I didn't work with tournament fighters.  I know what your talking
about, but these were definately not tournament fighters.  And as I said
I didn't just spar with these people I work out with them.  When I work
out with people from other styles I discuss philosophy with them,
practice or view their various techniques with them, and later on spar
with them.  I try to get a full background of where they're coming from.
As I said I work with them as a training partner, not just as someone to
spar against.


>Contrary to what you say, most of the TKD fighters I know do not
>telegraph kicks or hand techniques any more than any other martial
>artists.  Don't get me wrong, I've know of a few TKD black belts who one
>may consider to be very poorly conditioned and trained, however, it is
>like this with all MAs.  From what I can guess from you description of
>their "telegraphed" kicks, they are probably not very advanced.

Actually the one I trained with was a Black Belt, and is a certified
teacher from Korea.  This person was in very good condition, 
and is a very talented instructor and martial artist.  It's just
that when someone knows what to look for, many of the martial arts
including TKD telegraph ALOT.

The other one is also a Black Belt, and was also a very qualified instructor.
I am by no means passing my judgement based on anything lower than VERY
qualified black belts in TKD.

>TKD,
>unlike Shotokan, Okinawain Karate, and other MA, relies heavily on a
>wide variety of kicks that seem very unatural at early stages of
>development.  Therefore, to become proficient with all these
>*traditional* movements, it takes a great deal of time and effort
>(perhaps more than many other MA that utilize a relatively small arsenal
>of techniques- yes I expect flames).  So please do not say that they
>(TKD stylists) cannot fight-- many of them really can!! 

Again, I never said they couldn't fight.  (non-sarcastic tone) I suggest
you fully read the message next time, including the context.

>It is very hard
>to become proficient in some 30 kicks and deliver them effectively.  But
>when one is proficient in TKD they are some of the most versatile and
>dynamic fighters I have seen.

Again, from what I've seen many of these kicks should only be used 
by a person with a smaller body structure.  Many of them telegraph like
crazy and the longer the limbs the more they telegraph.  If you have
TKD friends that don't telegraph, then by all means send them my way.
I'd love to work out with them.

>For those who do not know what style to study, do not base you
>decision by general descriptions of the art.  Instead, go and visit, and
>see the advanced students of every school you might be considering. 

Very True.  I've heard snap judgements of various Shaolin styles,
Karate-do, and other styles.  I never believe anything I hear or take
it at full value until I have had a chance to experience it myself.
That's why anything I talk about is from past experience, just as it
is for you and many other people on here.

>After all, those arts which take you the longest to be good in, are
>always well worth the wait.

Any Martial Art is a lifetime of training/studying, I'm not sure what
your statement implies.

>*please excuse my grammar and spelling.  I have got no time to double
>check my posting-- I've got 143 pages of a English book which I must
>read tonight.  Bye.

Good luck!

>-Shiv

Marty