From: U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET (Carl A. Lahetta)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:36:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

> Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:14:15 GMT
> From:         "(Steve Creps)" <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
>
> In article <CHRISTIA%92092506424505@ASUACAD.BITNET> Tom Brewer
> <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
>
> [ I'm moving this paragraph from the end of the message to here. --SAC ]
>
> >I hope you can see I reworded my questions from the previous post. But I stil
l
> >see all this as a gospel of works. According to the above, Jesus does nothing
.
>
>    That's just not true.  In each case Jesus is doing something
> through someone or something else.
>
> >OK, just a few questions taken from "Saint John Neumann's Catechism."
> >
> >Q.  Who are they who go to Pugatory?
> >A.  They who die in the Grace of God, but who have not yet satisfied God
> >    for venial sins or for temporal punishments.
>
>    The Grace of God comes from/through Christ.  "Those who die in the
> Grace of God" is another phrase for those who have been forgiven by
> God for their sins.  Do not confuse God's forgiveness with His
> satisfaction.  The former is related to His mercy; the latter is
> related to His justice.

   Out of all the text I've read in the Bible I've never read anything
   about "satisfying" God's justice.  I've read passages that explain
   that Christ's blood covers our sins and God sees us as perfect.  Why
   would God require "justice" of a perfect spirit?

>
> >Q.  How long do the souls remain in Purgatory?
> >A.  Till they have satisfied God's justice.
>
>    Purgatory does not do anything for our gaining salvation.  Again,
> do not confuse God's forgiveness/mercy with His satisfaction/justice.

   Biblical ref. please.

   ....stuff deleted....
>
> >Q.  How are sins forgiven?
> >A.  Chiefly through the sacraments of baptism and penance.
>
>    These are Sacraments given us by Christ, therefore it is Christ who
> is doing the forgiving.

   In the Catholic church before the bread and wine is passed out the
   Catholics acknowledge "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."  What
   baptism?  When the child is an infant?  How does a Catholic reconcile
   John 3:16 and other verses where one has to make a *personal* decision
   to follow Jesus and *ask* for forgiveness?  If it is just "baptism" that
   leads to forgiveness, then all who are baptised in the RCC and die while
   living a sinful life are in Purgatory until they do their pennance.  If
   the response will be from a Catholic that it is not the baptism that
   cleanses the person from sin, then why do they confess that before
   communion?

>
> >Now I'm curious about the DE FIDE doctrine on Purgatory. According to
> >Dr. Ott three councils wrote about the "possibility of suffrages." The
> >doctrine goes like this:
> >   "The living faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in
> >    Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages)."
> >
> >Who are the "living faithful"?(Keep in mind the above says only the Pope
> >and company can forgive sins.)
>
>    Yes, prayers for the Souls in Purgatory can help them.  The "living
> faithful" are just that- "living" in that they are still living on
> Earth, and "faithful" in that they are members of the Church.  Again,
> this has nothing to do with forgiveness, since nobody can get into
> Purgatory without having been already forgiven.  Souls go through
> Purgatory in order to "make restitution," etc..

   Once again, where in the Bible is this mentioned.  Also, if one
   baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins then Purgatory is
   full spirits that sinned on earth and now are getting "justice".

> >Outside of Christ, how can any man "satisfy" God's justice?
> >
> >Did Christ, according to Catholic doctrine, die for all the sins of all men,
> >or only most of the sins of all men? If He died for all the sins, then how
> >could there be "venial" sins still not forgiven?
>
>    Christ died for all our sins.  Nobody said there were venial sins
> "not forgiven."  There may be venial sins for which sufficient penance
> has not yet been done, but penance comes only _after_ forgiveness.
> Penance does _not_ bring about forgiveness.

    Where oh where did Christ, or the Apostles teach about Purgatory?
>
>    Again, Purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with forgiveness.  As
> I have said many times, one must be already forgiven by God just to
> get into Purgatory in the first place.  The main objections I see to
> Purgatory show a lack of understanding of what the doctrine really
> says.
>
> -	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
> Steve Creps, Indiana University
> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu


Carl---------------+
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