From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: 'Russell B. Scholl' Says Otherwise, 'Skartsis:' Living With Illusions?
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:18:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: ddsw1.m0lYPQp-0003RGC


<1992Apr6.214033.12306@wuche2.wustl.edu>
ls0823@wuche1.wustl.edu (Labros Skartsis)

>... various bull as usually (what else?)

Exactly what is this 'bull' of which you speak?

>Ok, this is my last  answer here in the discussion. And this
>because I don't make money by writing in the net and I have
>to use my time otherwise...

Too bad.

>Why did I have to make comparison between Greece and Turkey? Why
>did I have to insult Turkey (and, to answer here, I can't again avoid it
>to some extent)? Your attitude makes people attack your country even if
>they don't want to.
>You keep critisizing and insulting other peoples and countries, 
>especially Greece,
>in a particularly mean way, excibiting blind hatred. 

I'd be most interested in justification of this assertion. Still not
addressing the original points made.

>And God forbid
>if anyone says the least about your own country , which you know
>very well how ... (to be polite) far from developed it is! 

Would you ever need to read in scholarly sources or 'other reliable
references' to learn about what goes on around you or in your and
your Greek neighbors' minds?

>To put it simply, even if one does not correct the greek economic
>numbers for Greece's notorious huge "hidden" economy  (that every 
>economist on earth says that it actually is de facto additional
>income that has to be taken into account - what the hell are you
>mumbling about? you never heard of this?),

Means 'nil' as I have explained in my response. A person trying to 
convince an astronaut that the earth is square should expect about 
the same level of cynicism in the reaction.

>the difference between our two countries in all respects , no 
>matter how you choose to present the numbers is huge; so huge,
>that it is a joke to even make comparisons, even talk about 
>comparisons... 

Forgive me if my questions look like from kindergarten, however,
I am really new about the 'international economics' area, so please 
help. Turkiye, notwithstanding the high population growth, has
been able to achieve a sustained growth rate not less than 6 percent
over the last decade. How about Greece?

>The difference between Greece and the most developed
>countries (in all those indicators that refer to development, quality
>of life etc.) is minimal compared to that between her and Turkey -
>which is waaay below, ... well... deep into the third world domain.
>(and note: Turkey is the only OECD country to be listed as "third world
>country").

Let us see - shall we?

Source: Russell B. Scholl, 'International Investment Position: Component
Detail,' June 1990, p. 61.

Turkiye is classified as a 'developed country,' along with Austria,
Finland, Norway, Portugal and Spain. Need I add more?

>I think it was Spiros Triantafilopoulos who presented a large number
>of comparative statistical data that show the above - which, 
>anyway, is common
>"qualitative" knowledge already! Why even bother??

And he was entertained properly.

>Why don't you look once more at the UN's HDI (Human Development
>Index) which ranks the countries taking into account several different
>factors - and forget that Greece's "hidden" economy is not even accounted
>for ? Where is Greece and where is Turkey? 
>What  more can one possibly  say? 

Pardon me.

Source: 'United Nations, Human Development Report,' 1990.

Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to Purchasing Power
Parity: Turkiye, Greece and Chile are in the same category. That
is, $3,000 - $5,999. 

Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
        Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
        1991, (second edition).

In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
Turkiye.

>- Yes, Greek economy (macroeconomic indicators)
>is in bad shape; and so many things are wrong in
>Greece and we all feel ashmed of it!
>- Yes, Turkey is developing fast; that's great! Sincerely! There are
>many accomplishments of this country worth admiration (for example,
>technically is by far the most advanced muslim country). I hope it
>were developing  and closing the gap even faster. Why the hell would
>I wish it to remain poor? 

To sum up this brief comparison, I would rather refer to what a 
foreign journalist said:

'The Greek economy has been fully ruined and is on the brink of
a total collapse. As for the Turkish economy, it is strong, dynamic
and above all very promising indeed. We are witnessing not a phony,
but a real miracle.'

I have nothing to add to this comment.

>- But: 
>There is still a biiiiig difference and a loooong way to go. And,
>unfortunately, its relative backwardness is reflected in the 
>mentality of many Turks, perfectly examplified and represented by
>yourself. That's where the roots of many problems are....

You live with illusions, 'Skartsis.'

> That's why I truly wish you guys do well for a long time and
>eventually (really) prosper and develop.

Is Greece really competing with Turkiye?

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)