From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Good Bye Mr. Bush
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:48:46 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.

In article <1dh1naINN7pi@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:

..... (stuff deleted)

>	Remember, I told earliar to look few paras down below. This is where
>I wanted you to come. I did not use any ethinic goup's name at all.
>You in your usual way have jumped on me (remember, I am a Khan and I can
>jump back :-) ) and accused of God knows what. I was talking about
>the kind of leaders we have been getting in the Govt. Seems like
>We do not really have any Muhajirs in the Govt. Otherwise if they were
>crooks and in the Govt, I would have blamed them too. So, before I 
>put some data below, You.. and people like Muhammad Javed Iqbal and
>Rahim should stop blaming "Muhajirs" (using the term you used) for
>every major fuck up in Pakistan. 
>Now we will see the origin of people who have been ruling Pakistan
>for last 45 years. You will be surprised. It is coming from my memory
>and may be the ordering is not correct. Also if I have made a mistake
>please correct me. We will go in LIFO order ( last in first out)
>
>	Name 			Place of Birth/ Background
>
>	Navaz Sharif		Punjab / Kashmiri
>	Benazir			Sindh / Sindhi + Irani
>	Ishaq			N.W.F.P / Pashtoon
>	Jatoi			Sindh
>	Junejo			Sindh
>	Zia-ul-Haq		East Panjab 
>	Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto	Sindh 
>	Yahya			N.W.F.P / Irani(?)
>	Ayub Khan		Panjab / Pashtoon
>	Iskandar Mirza 		Bombay Area (*)
>	Ghulam Mohammad 	Hyderabad Deccan / Panjab (**)
>	Hussain Sohrawardy	West Bengal/ Panjab
>	Chaudhry Mohammad Ali	East Panjab
>	Feroz Khan Noon		Panjab
>	Bogra			East Bengal
>	Khwaja Nazimuddin	Bengal
>	Liaquat Ali Khan	East Panjab( Dist. Kernaal)
>	Mr. M. A. Jinnah        Sindh / Gujrati speaking paraents
>
>(*) In this long list, the only person I am not sure of is 
>	Major General Iskandar Mirza. I guess, he was from around
>	Bombay, but Bombay like Karachi is a cosmopolitan city,
>	so he may not necessarily be a Marathaa. May be he was 
>	an Urdu speaking, may be not.
>	He is the only ruler Pakistan had, during whose rule Pakistan's
>	area actually increased. Pakistan successfully negotiated
>	Gawadar with Muscat. Pakistan payed some money as a token
>	of friendship and took control of Gavadar port in Makran.
>	But I blame him for introducing Zulfi Bhutto into Pakistan
>	Govt. Pakistanis paid dearly for this mistake of Mirza.
>
>(**) Malik Ghulam Mohammad was born in Hyderabad Deccan, and 
>	was an ethnic Panjabi. He is not only responsible for 
>	suggesting Kashmir/Hyderabad trade-off..... thus fucking
>	both, but also happens to be the first ever dictator
>	of Pakistan. He dismissed Prime Minister Khwaja Nazimuddin
>	for no reason.
>
>So dude, as we can see from the list above, there are not too many
>"Muhajirs" [almost none at all, in the sense you use this word]
>to be blamed. 
>Same goes for other ministers/cabinets. I came up with the above list
>based on my memory, and can not provide any references 
>For those
>who are interested in Ethnic Composition of Several Pakistan Cabinets
>Khalid Ben Sayed talks about this in one of his books (published 80's).
>
>so you, and others like you, should stop blaming Muhajirs. They are not
>Farishtaas, but not responsible for the situation we got in Pakistan.
>
>Racism sucks. I did not want to talk in these terms. But you forced
>me to tell you why  I had not included any Muhajir among major fuckers
>in Pakistani Govt.
>It has been 45 years since Pakistan was founded. We  still got people
>dying  in floods, while their representives were having good
>time in Islamabad. We still have  terrible living conditions in lyari
>and their polo-playing representive was busy collecting rishvats and
>fooling around with Japanese babe. 
>If you have ever been to Lyari, you will realize that not only the people
>they have sent to Govt have done nothing for them, but in fact screw up
>the whole pakistan. Their representive live miles away from them and
>come to lyari only during election season. In order to get rid of
>these idiots like Zardari, Benazir, and Navaz..... we need wide spread
>education so people will figure out  Milk Kaa Milk, and Water Kaa water.
>So cutie pie, I hope we all  get rid of racism. 
>Do not blame some one just because he/she speaks a diferent lang./ belongs to
>different race, has another color etc..
>
>

Dear Mansoor Khan

I am really not interested in a serious debate on any of these issues. If
I were, I would have responded to your criticism of Quota System in another
recent posting. There is hardly anything achieved in such debates. In the other
posting, you have also referred to the "Hyderabad massacre". I have on many
occasions commented on such propaganda, and have given quite conclusive
arguements in justification of population based quota system, and the
Hyderbad cleanup operation. Each time after my response no one had anything
to say. But what is achieved in that. After a couple of months someone new
comes and says the same things and I am considered obliged to repeat my 
arguements. Unfortunately despite the fact that many people seem to be
interested in following these debates (and as one gentleman once said that
he had saved some 100 postings in such a debate) no one considered it useful
to store it in the ftp site where transcripts of other debates were being
saved. I'm still waiting for someone unbiased to make an FAQ as brother
Haroon Dogar had suggested. Honestly, I don't have time to repeat the whole
thing again and again... That's exactly why this time I did not make any
accusations, contrary to what you are bent upon accusing me of. I tried my
best to avoid it.... and BTW, if you think I am a racist, I'm afraid you
are very wrong. Either you don't know what racisim is.. or you don't know
enough about me... or maybe both...

My objective this time was mainly to point out your use of offensive language
about women of your country... I consider the word 'bitch' particularly sexist.
... because this word is applicable to only women... similarly, I had objected
to Saad Shafqat's calling Benazir the Prime Minister who sleeps with Asif
Zardari. Such comments are particularly despicable because they can be used
against women only because they are women. What if some one asked you, "How
is the man who sleeps with your mother" rather than "How is your dad?". Sexism
whether it is on scp.. or in the Canadian parliament when someone called a
woman 'slut' is unfortunate. 

Similarly, using words like 'shit-head' is hardly condusive to a healthy
discussion... if you just want to use dirty language against someone, then
accept it. If you want a healthy debate or even if you want to make a
political statement, you aught to behave maturely. Shithead is hardly 
something Bhutto was. Using dirty language for someone hoping that it
would in some way ruin his image hardly behooves normal grown-ups. As
I mentioned in a response to an indian netter, it is just like calling
Pakistan fuckistan and being amused... I'll repeat what I said last time..
I'm really surprised that cultures where such things are considered
at least amusing, exist today.

Peace (thanks Gul Agha)

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7826  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan