HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: romeo@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:30:22 GMT
Followup-To: rec.railroad
Distribution: na
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

>In article <1992Aug14.153151.20912@Veritas.COM>, joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:
>|> 
>|> they overcame this head start.  Remember, that trains were subsidized 32
>|> square miles of land for each mile of track they built.  The biggest 
>|> transportation subsidy ever!

(I hope I got the attribution correct)-

This assertion about "trains were subsidized 32 square miles of land
for each mile of track they built" seems to be one of the most
mis-understood aspects of railroad history in the USA. 

Only a very few railroads got such so-called "subsidies" from
the Federal Govt.; by "few" I mean half a dozen or so out of the
literally thousands of railroads that have gone into (and out of)
the railroad operating business in the USA.

At the time the land was awarded to these railroads, it was
essentially worthless. No one wanted the land, and the govt.
hoped to stimulate emmigration. In return for accepting the
land grants, the railroads had to make very costly concessions,
including being responsible for real estate development in
the concerned areas, and to transport the US Mail at rates
far below what they would otherwise have charged to make 
a fair profit.

The railroads did not *ask* for these land grants, rather
they were foist upon them as a condition of obtaining their
charters. The US public got far better out of this bargain
than the RRs ever did.

Railroads were historically fiercely proud of their
independence from govt. subsidy and it was big news when,
during the 1950s, the NYC became one of the 1st railroads
to ask for Federal assistance.

Anyone who thinks that US railroads are somehow over-subsidized
by the govt just hasn't spent much time learning the facts
of the case. For example, for dozens of years, any railroad
operating within the state lines of New Jersey had to pay
real estate taxes which far exceeded revenue *before*
operating costs generated by car loadings and passenger
revenue in that state. For dozens of years the railroads
subsidized *the state*. A similar story could be told of
the Long Island Railroad and the city of New York. Railroads
have been treated as 'cash cows' for years by various govt.
taxing agencies.

ObDisclaimer: I lied a little bit about "no one wanting the
land"; Native Americans wanted the land, but that's a whole
'nother can of worms that I'm not going to touch.

Michael Stimac
-- 
Michael Stimac
(415) 355-8889
romeo@tymnet.com
These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Restroom Closings on Amtrak (Was: My Amtrak Vacation)
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:37:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
> In article <1992Aug18.122644.727@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ggg9y@poe.acc.Virg
> > It is rather surprising in these days of supposed ecological conscious-
> > ness that they would have accepted such a design, and even more surprising 
> > that they haven't bebuilt the systems.
> 
> I guess the treatment is supposed to render the wastes more or less dis-
> infected, and the railroads dumping on their private roadbeds is grand-
> fathered in or ignored.  

What treatment?  The last time I rode in a "Heritage" car (about a year ago)
it was just like the old days: while the toilet was being flushed, you could
look right through it and watch the ground go by.

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: VIA's excellent, Amtrak sticks bigtime
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:42:10 GMT

In article <18AUG92.18295801.0061@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes:
 
>
>In article <16847C6F9.M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
>>
>>The "Atlantic" runs three days a week between Halifax and Montreal on (mostly)
>>the CPR route through Maine and Saint John, New Brunswick.  The "Ocean" runs
>>three days a week between Halifax and Montreal on the CNR (former Intercolonial
>>Railway) route via Campbellton.
>
>This is just nitpicking, but the majority of the Atlantic route is
>over CN track.  It goes 278 miles on CN from Halifax to Saint John,
>then 369 miles on CP from Saint John to Lennoxville, then 101 miles
>on CN from Lennoxville to Montreal.  So the total is 379 miles on CN
>and 369 on CP.
>>
 
I didn't stop to add up the mileage, as perhaps I should have.  I suspect that
the average railfan THINKS of the route as CPR (as I do), because of the
historical routing of the "Atlantic", but your figures are I am sure accurate.
I was aware of the route used, just didn't stop to actually compute the
relative mileage.
 
>>Between Montreal and Vancouver, contrary to reports of its death, the
>>"Canadian" still runs three days a week. . .
>
>The Canadian now runs only from Toronto to Vancouver, not from
>Montreal.
>
How did I ever manage a mistake like that?!  "Be sure brain is engaged
before putting mouth (keyboard) into gear!"
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: Rail Access to Airports
Organization: Presbyterian College, Clinton SC
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:26:49 GMT

In article <16843BFFD.M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.234628.16835@s1.gov>
>lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
> 
>>        Here is a somewhat comprehensive list, gleaned from postings
>>here and personal research:
>>
> 
>Add:
> 
> 
>  Cleveland - Hopkins Airport.  Rapid transit (I forget which color) station is
>    in the lower level of the Terminal building.
> 

It's the Red Line.

> 
>  Chicago - O'Hare Airport.  Rapid transit I think is in the terminal, but I
>    haven't been there since it opened.

The line "sort of" runs to the terminal.  The station is connected to
the main terminal building by a **long** enclosed passageway.  There 
are moving sidewalks to help you, so it isn't too bad.

> 
> 
>Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
>MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
>Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
><M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
> 

Jon Bell / Dept. of Physics & Comp. Sci.
Presbyterian College / Clinton SC
email: jtbell@presby.edu
From: Steve_Hooper@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: VIA's excellent, Amtrak sticks bigtime
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:15:58 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

> Calvin Henry-Cotnam writes:
> 
> There is a private firm that operates an excursion from Vancouver
> to Banff, unfortunately the name escapes me at the moment.


Great Canadian Railtours Company (GCRC)


#104-340 Brooksbank St.
North Vancouver, B.C.
(Don't know the zip)

Head Office          984-3131
Fax                  984-3112
Reservations         984-3315
Fax                  984-2883

All numbers prefixed by area code (604)


--

 steve_hooper@mindlink.bc.ca   []  Conductor on the High Iron of
 OR      a777@mindlink.bc.ca   []     CP Rail - Cascade Sub
 The Great White North in      []
 Vancouver, BC CANADA          []   Opinions are mine, NOT CP's
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: Rail Access to Airports
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:39:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.234628.16835@s1.gov>
lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
 
>
>
>        Here is a somewhat comprehensive list, gleaned from postings
>here and personal research:
>
Washington Metro stop is a short walk from the terminal, not inside it.
 
Add:
  Boston - Logan Airport.  Free Shuttle bus to Blue Line Rapid Transit to
    various downtown stations and connections to everything else.  I'd allow
    a mininum of a half-hour due to the possibility of the shuttle bus getting
    stuck in major traffic on the Airport loop itself.
 
    Also Shuttle boat service with bus connection to the Airport terminal.
    Boat runs I think from Long Wharf, possibly Rowes' Wharf, convenient to the
    financial district, a couple of major (expensive) hotels and not much else.
 
 
  Cleveland - Hopkins Airport.  Rapid transit (I forget which color) station is
    in the lower level of the Terminal building.
 
 
  Chicago - O'Hare Airport.  Rapid transit I think is in the terminal, but I
    haven't been there since it opened.
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
 
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: christo@bcarh803.BNR.CA (Mark Christopher)
Subject: Maximum age for cars (was Re: Restroom Closings on Amtrak)
Reply-To: christo@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:02:04 GMT

In article <5025@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, macman+@pitt.edu (Dennis H
Lippert) writes:
[[some stuff about the age of Amfleet cars and cost of retrofitting
holding tanks on washrooms.]]
|>Also, most of the cars are nearing the 40-year age... quite a large
|>number, and also the legal maximum age for an interchange freight
|>car... anyone know of such a rule for passenger equipment?

Is this age limit absolute or can it modified by rebuilds?

Are the "retired" cars prohibited from being used on any trains at
all or can they be used on locals or MOW, etc?

Does that explain all the cabooses turned into restaurants, etc?

Also, is the 40 year limit in the USA only or is there a similar
regulation in Canada?

-- 
Mark Christopher        Bell-Northern Research          christo@bnr.ca
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: _Scientific American_ profiles Maglev Trains
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:30:14 GMT


>From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
>I know the "500 mile" mark is pretty arbitrary, but did you know that
>Kansas City?  Even San Francisco -> Los Angeles (337 miles) would be a
>tough route to beat airlines with.


You brought this up in another group. The answer is still the same.
Namely that many people take the plane because the only alternative
is the much slower automobile or bus. Not everybody that flies has to
get there at the speed of a plane. Many of Amtraks more popular routes
are the long distance ones. You would really have to demonstrate that
making those runs faster, smoother and more reliable would not 
encourage greater ridership. Besides as you were already told the TGV
people have analyzed the SF-LA route, have determined that they could
run at a profit charging 2/3 the air fare to capture 50% of the 
ridership.


>I might change the "500" above to more like "200" ...

Considering the long distance trains are sold out months in advance.
I would change it to 3,000, if they run more frequently and faster,
at any speed.


   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
From: che238n@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Driver clunk
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:19:40 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

In article <1992Aug18.144628.26610@bradley.bradley.edu>, casey@bradley.bradley.edu (Chris Langston) writes:
> In <1992Aug18.113122.89790@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> che238n@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
> 
>>I would be interested yo know how long it is since 4449 and 2472 were
>>overhauled.
> 
>  If my memory serves me correct. 4449 had some running gear work done in 1990,
> But I don't think that was on the side rod bearings. The 2472 is a fresh   
> rebuild, I think it was first steamed last fall or early this spring.
That explains it then. Can anyone who has knowledge of the last bearing work
performed on 4449 confirm? Better still, anyone who actually did the work...

                       
Xref: sparky rec.railroad:6567 misc.headlines:5664 sci.misc:1486
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,misc.headlines,sci.misc
Subject: Re: Note on Newport News Wreck
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:59:16 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <15AUG199222302479@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
> I'm curious about that Amtrak train derailment last
> Wednesday in Newport News, Virginia. How far did the
> train go past the switch before it derailed? The only 
> news photo available to me at this time is the AP
> picture that shows only the ripped-up switch, not the
> train. 
...
> The story implies that the train made it onto the siding before
> derailing, but I wonder if that would require that Newton's
> laws of motion be out to lunch at the time. Do any rail buffs
> know the radius of curvature of a typical entry onto a siding?
> Then somebody in sci.physics could compute the forces involved.


Basically, switches for sidings come in different degrees of
curvature depending on the purpose of the siding and the needs
of the track alignment.  The "normal speed" may reflect the
actual layout in this case, or more likely the general rules
for switching the sidings.

Whether the train derails or not is pretty much up to chance.
The engine can derail or following cars can - the engine can
also knock the tracks out of alignment such that the following
cars derail or cut the opposite way.

I'm not sure how relevant the physics are, since there are
multiple failure modes.  The wheel flanges may hop the rails,
the carbodys may roll over, the track may be deflected or the
rails overturn.

There were a couple of these switch vandalism incidents on
the B&O main through Delaware in the early 70's.  In one case
the train (freight going ~50 MPH?) took the siding and dropped
a couple of geeps off the end of an elevated unloading siding
onto a highway.  In the other, something stumbled and most of
the train ended up zig-zagged across the siding and main.

I seem to recall hearing that in one of the cases, the arm
from the switch mechanism to the signal box had been detached
so the signal indication several miles back didn't change.

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing:   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Commodore, Engineering Department     phone:  215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
From: hudson@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Hudson Leighton)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Note on Newport News Wreck(now Lock)
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:25:06 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

The problem I have seen with the new "Sargent" locks is that the keys
are VERY easy to make.  When they first showed up in Minnesota
there were never enough keys so the RR employees discovered that for one
RR a 5/16 inch cotter key with a slot worked great and for another
a 5/16 inch bolt with a little grinding works just fine.

/s

UUCP: {crash tcnet}!orbit!pnet51!hudson
INET: hudson@pnet51.orb.mn.org
ICBM: Lat. 44.59 x lon. 93.13
HAM:  NONMX  444.100 repeater
Advertisement: Try the Railway Post Office BBS (612) 377-2197 a Railfan BBS
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: Restroom on Amtrak
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:28:46 GMT

AMTRAK TOILETS

Thanks for straightening out the "mess" I inadvertantly
stirred up.  I still wonder about the holding tank 
question on equipment Amtrak got from contributing lines.
I vaguely remember as a youngster on my first long train
trip on the original California Zephyr looking down the
toilet chute and seeing the ties whiz by.  The next year
I took the City of San Francisco and remember being 
disappointed that my car had a tank of some sort and the
ties weren't visible.  Now that was over 30 years ago and
minds become fuzzy as we approach the "Elvis Zone", but
is it possible that some older cars had holding tanks and
some of those got into Amtrak service?
~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: wes@uf.msc.edu (Wes Barris)
Subject: Re: Driver clunk
Reply-To: wes@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:23:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.191913.10603@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com>, johnm@hpmcaa (John Mosbarger) writes:
|> 
|>     I don't believe that the 4449 has any roller bearings.  Only 2 GS- series
|> locomotives had roller bearings, the GS5's (numbers forgotten).

SP      4410-15 4-8-4.73        GS-2            1937    Lima
SP      4416-29 4-8-4.80        GS-3            1937    Lima    71,173
SP      4430-57 4-8-4.80        GS-4 (vest)     1941-42 Lima    71,173
SP      4458-59 4-8-4.80        GS-5 (rlr)      1942    Lima    71,173
SP      4460-69 4-8-4.80        GS-6 (black)    1943    Lima    71,173

-- 
                                       o O O O O o o o o o o o o . . . . . . .
 __________    ___           ___      __                _
/_______|--`--|_ _|--=-==---|_ _|--,_|__|_             |-+-------`____________,
| ||_| /        -  |        / - \  |      || ________  |                      |
|_|___/------------|----__---------|------|||__|__|__| |Southern Pacific Lines|
|_|____________/-------{__}---------------{__}_______|=|_________     ________|
/_(o)=(o) ( )( )( )( ) [__]  ( )( )( )( ) [__]--(o)     (o)(o)(o)-----(o)(o)(o)
===============================================================================
Wes Barris                                                   PH: (612) 626-8090
Minnesota Supercomputer Center                               Email: wes@msc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Speed of Portland LRVs
From: Robert Chambers <RMCCU@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Wednesday, 19 Aug 1992 21:30:46 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: CUNY/UCC VM Systems

In article <17099@ulysses.att.com>, smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) says:
>
>Frankly, I'd expect the railroads to push for higher speeds, as
>better publicity -- ``cars are legally limited to 55 mph; we go at
>79 mph,'' etc.  Certainly, the Metro North ads on the radio around here
>have stressed the amount of road construction going on.

Oh but they do!  Metro North has Don Pardo from David Letterman and other
NBC announcement fame.  something like "Don't sit in traffic, take
the train, Metro North train, Travel up to nn (I think its 80 or 90)
Miles an hour.." etc etc..  It's quite funny

Robert

Ps. I've never seen Don Pardo on the train tho..
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,sci.environment,ba.transportation
From: garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR)
Subject: Re: The Rebuilding of the Wrecked West Oakland I-880 Segment
Summary: 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 18 Aug 92 01:34:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.225807.15692@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heyd writes...
>In article <1992Aug17.193600.23657@Veritas.COM> joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug17.161507.5091@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>>>Do you think a BART extension to Livermore would have an effect on
>>>traffic on the complex from the I80-I580 through the I580-I980-Ca24
>>>area?
>>
>>Of course not.  BART runs near 880 for most of its length, and 880 has
>>the worst traffic of any non-bridge in the area.  

I must ask what you mean by "most"? From the maps I've seen, BART
runs near 580 instead of 880 (except for in Oakland). It runs by 580
from north Hayward to Fremont. This isn't a flame.
>
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:31:20 GMT

In article <Bt4w40.4x5@teleride.on.ca> stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb) writes:
>All freeways have done is divide and destroy living, working neighbourhoods
>in the inner city, contributing to unemployment and the associated increased
>violence.

Interesting conjecture.  Would you care to match your sweeping
generalization up with the last few years of development in the San
Ramon Valley?

(If that location is unfamiliar to you, you may wish to trim your
newsgroups line.)

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: eravin@panix.com (Ed Ravin)
Subject: Metro-North Interior Indicators (was -- subway something or other)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:43:03 GMT
Organization: Not Just Another Pretty Face

In article <92220.105217RMCCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> Robert Chambers <RMCCU@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>Speaking of lights... Who can tell me what the lights in the MNCR
>MU cars mean?  I'm talking about the Orange/Green lights above the
>cab doors.. On the M4 cars there's a red one too.  I've noticed whenver
>the trains brakes dump air the orange one goes on immediately.  What
>exactly do they mean?

I remember peering at one set that had legends on them -- one went on
when the brakes were locked, another while the brakes were slowing
the car down, and I can't remember the third -- maybe when the doors
were open?  I'll peer a little more at them on my way home today.

-- 
Ed Ravin            | I like to think (it has to be!) of a cybernetic ecology
eravin@panix.com    | where we are free of our labors and joined back to nature
philabs!trintex!elr | returned to our mammal brothers and sisters,
+1 914 993 4737     | and all watched over by machines of loving grace