From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: "Ice Cubes Applied To The Genitals..." 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 23:46:58 GMT

[Note:  Lots of deletions.  Hopefully I'm not twisting anything out of context]

In article <1992Jul22.184921.3336@acd4.acd.com> wdo@TEFS1.acd.com (Bill Overpeck) writes:
>In <1992Jul14.011105.20981@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu 
>   (Keith A. Cochran) writes: >
>In article <1992Jul9.210458.1582@acd4.acd.com> wdo@TEFS1.acd.com 
>   (Bill Overpeck) writes: >>
>In <1992Jul8.010428.8515@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@isis.cs.du.edu 
>   (Keith A. Cochran) writes: >>>
>In article <1992Jul6.210234.13150@acd4.acd.com> wdo@TEFS1.acd.com 
>   (Bill Overpeck) writes: >>>>
>
>[...]
>
>>[Good for you, Bill.  Now for a tougher one...]
>>
>>Denise (not her real name) is a mature adult working full time, and going to
>>college part time to get a programming degree.  She met Ted (not his real
>>name).  Three months (or so) later, they had sex.  She was on the pill.  Within
>>a week or so after they began having sex, he became abusive.  She dumped him
>>immediatly, and then found out she was pregnant.  Would you allow her to have
>>an abortion?
>
>No.  (Gee, I'm starting to feel *real* powerful...)

Which means, that IMNSHO, you're an asshole.  You're an intelligent asshole,
but still an asshole.

[Now, you call me an asshole back, and let's try and continue the discussion
without any more name calling, ok?]

>
>Risk is relative to the health of the respective woman and her ability
>to safely carry a pregnancy to term as determined by her physician.

So, if a doctor lies, and signs his name to a statement saying that carrying
the pregnancy to term is likely to kill the woman, she can have an abortion?

How are you going to verify that the doctor isn't lying?  Require two doctors
to sign?  Require a panel?
>
>The interests of society (should) include a sanctioned acknowledgement
>that all human life is valuable.  Currently I fear the opposite value
>is endorsed i.e., the value of human life is relative to the opinion
>of the individual.  Such a philosophy (IMO) undermines interests of 
>society in that human life can be treated as a commodity (with the 
>blessing of the state).

I hate to tell you this, Bill, but human life, like all things is a commodity.
Diamonds are only valuable because they are (1)scarce, and (2)humans place
a value on them for various reasons.  Human life has no _objective_ value,
just as animal and tree life have no _objective_ value.  [Let's not go into
the subjective values of these things, ok?]
>
>>The government cannot force me to donate blood to save the life of another
>>human.  The government cannot force me to donate organs to another human.  
>>The government cannot force me give up the food I brought at the store to 
>>hungry homeless people.  The government cannot force me to stop and attempt 
>>to save the life of a person who has had a heart attack, even though I know 
>>CPR.  The government cannot force me to give up my bodily resources for ano-
>>ther.  Why do you feel it should be able to force women to give up their 
>>bodily resources?
>
>You didn't answer my question which, of course, is your option.  But I 
>will answer yours.  If there were no direct cause and effect relationship
>between voluntary (hetero)sexual activity and pregnancy, your question
>would be appropriate.  In that event, your analogies would be relevant 
>as well.  Please note that none of them implies any cause and effect re-
>lationship between your behavior and the plight of the other human in-
>volved.  

Ok.  I know that I'm the only person who would be an acceptable organ doner
for "Jerry".  I go out and intentionally do something that causes "Jerry's"
kidney's to fail.  The government cannot force me to donate a kidney _or any
other body part/resource_ to save Jerry's life, even though I'm the one who
caused his prediciment.

Now what?

[Rest of article deleted.  However, since Bill keeps deleting it I'm going to
assume that he feels that although the state has "compelling interest" in 
preserving the life of "unborn potential US citizens", he doesn't feel they
have "compelling interest" in preserving the life of "born potential US
citizens".]
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=
="I want a man, who will, lay down beside me.  I want a man, who will stand up=
=to me too.  That's what I like about you." -Trisha Yearwood, talking about me=